CREATION DATE: 2025-01-21T11:30:29+13:00
SOURCE URL: https://www.pridenz.com/data/text/plaintext/

IRN: 7834
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/tom_odonoghue.html
ATL REF: 
ATL URL: 
TITLE: Tom ODonoghue
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Tom O'Donoghue
INTERVIEWER: Peter Duncan
TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; AIDS; Act Up; Aotearoa New Zealand; HIV / AIDS; HIV education; HIV stigma; HIV testing and prevention; HIV transmission; National Council on AIDS; National People Living with AIDS Union; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Peter Duncan; STD; Shingles; T cells; Tuberculosis; United States of America; Wellington; antiretroviral drugs; health; health care; pets; police; sailing
DATE: 1993
YEAR: 1993
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Tom O'Donoghue is interviewed by Pete Duncan in 1993 (exact date unknown), about his journey with HIV and AIDS. Tom was a co-founder of the National People Living with AIDS Union. He died on 28 September 1994.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: December 2024
TEXT: My name's Tom O'Donoghue. Is that enough? That's great, yeah. I'm 38 years old, um, and I have AIDS. I tested HIV positive about five years ago. Um, I believe I probably contracted this virus when I was in America in 1980 and 1981. Um, and I was too scared to have a test, but partly because I didn't think I'd be at risk. I wasn't at risk. I wasn't sharing needles. And I had [00:00:30] maybe five sexual partners in two years when I was in America. Excuse me. And um, I went to a conference here in New Zealand about five years ago and they were talking about the disease having been around probably in the 70s. And that you didn't have to be wildly promiscuous. That once was enough. One unsafe exposure. So, the not knowing got worse than the knowing. So I went and had an HIV test, quite, quite believing that I'd be negative. And lo and behold, it turned out to be positive.[00:01:00] The, the shock was quite great. My partner, fortunately, is negative, still negative after five years. And that's just the way the virus works. I mean, he and my partner and I met a lot of unsafe sex for the first four years of our relationship. And, it's just the way it is. I mean, some people don't survive one exposure, some people survive thousands. And, [00:01:30] I left work, I was at that stage working for a medical and scientific company, and I had, my field of expertise was um, disinfection and sterilization. And, I also sold HIV test kits, which is a bit outright. Um, but, I felt that I wasn't prepared to work 50 or 60 hours a week for the rest of my life, because I mentioned that my life would be a lot shorter than other people's. And so I [00:02:00] resigned. I was well treated by my company. And about a year later, I decided that I'd like to get involved at a more political advocacy level for people with the virus. Because there were lots of issues that were important to us, that seemed to us that we were being addressed by the established age organisations. And primarily one, primarily around treatment. Treatment using information. So we set up the National People Living With HIV Union. And there's a few of us who work voluntary and [00:02:30] we produce a magazine every two months. And I'm actively involved in taking the AIDS message into prisons, Department of Education, um, I'm part of a number of programs on HIV and AIDS. I think that it's been successful because we personalise the virus. Nothing that people can sort of put a face to the rise that has a much more powerful impact. Um, And I had, I had a good [00:03:00] background, you know, too. I like, I trained as a health inspector, and I was a medical salesperson. So I was able to keep fairly up to date with the sorts of information that came through. What else about me? Do you want to ask any questions back there? Yeah, um, tell, tell me where, so when you had your test done first, when you say you sort of, was it just, you were just more worried than anything else? Oh, I was, I was, I was, the not knowing was getting worse than the knowing. And I now, I [00:03:30] now realise, um, what a tragedy that attitude is for a lot of people. But then again, in some respects, the early days were, were kind of frightening and people were too scared to have a test. I've certainly changed my mind the last few years. We strongly advocate that people who have been exposed should have a test. Because, you see, the antivirals which are available [00:04:00] are better off started when you're relatively well and healthy. When your T cell and your immune system is in good condition. But if 500 or less, or 500, a lot of people wouldn't even have had the folliculitis And you can't take advantage of the intervention therapies which are keeping people alive and well much longer, unless you know your HIV status. And not a month goes by where we don't hear of somebody who's been admitted to hospital or has their first news, um, not HIV positive but AIDS.[00:04:30] And they've got sicker and sicker. And I think that's tragic because Um, Those people could well have been having good, productive, quality lives, Um, and taken full advantage of all the medicines that they had, Orphedema, opportunistic infections. But in retrospect, little things have happened like, um, like I got shingles. And that's a sign of immune suppression. It took for a lot of people. But, I remember when, [00:05:00] leaving work, um, and the trouble with HIV and AIDS, of course, is the stigma and prejudice attached to it that was so powerful, even as late as five years, um, And I was far too scared to tell people. And I mean, everybody at work was under the impression that I had cancer. I mean, it was my official line that I had cancer. Uh, except the bosses knew. Um, and then about a year, I carried on that facade for quite some time. And then I went to a National Council and Allies [00:05:30] meeting, four years ago. Um, and they were preparing a five year strategy. And I remember there were lots of doctors and nurses that I used to work, deal with, with. Um, in my other occupation. And I remember thinking that, um, this virus lives, I figured this virus lives on dishonesty. And I wasn't going to have a quality of life while I was holding all this stuff. And so I remember standing up and introducing myself as a gay man, and somebody with HIV and virus that causes AIDS. [00:06:00] Well look, this big burden just unlifted from me. It was like coming out. It was like coming out. And if I was to die tomorrow, I could honestly say that I've had five good years. The last five years of my life have been great. And largely that is because I've been able to be honest with myself. Growing up gay, you get expert at hiding your sexual orientation, you get expert at getting in and out of situations through lies and [00:06:30] stuff, especially when there's pressure on you maybe to have a girlfriend, and all that sort of thing. What I did feel was, if only I'd been able to be this honest about my sexual orientation when I was younger. Because I think that coming out frees people up to realise their full potential. And these last five years I've felt that I've achieved a lot more potential, I've realised a lot more of my potential. Um, I don't, I guess all people [00:07:00] have a bit of ego, I mean. It's extremely important for me though, the reason that I get involved, and that I have been involved, is that I believe that we are essential components of the prevention program. We're like the full stops on the prevention message. And what I'd like, I don't want other people here at my space, you know. And um, as I said, I mean it's been proved time and time again, that the HIV positive message is perhaps one of the most powerful, in both support and prevention. Which can be up to friends and stuff, but not to family. This was when [00:07:30] I was in my early twenties. Um, but I never, it was never discussed at work or anything. I mean I wasn't openly out at work. You know, it never had been. And, yeah, I think the fear, I remember, you know, as I said, the feeling of standing up and saying I was HIV positive was like that same sensation of coming out. And I've really never looked back since. I, um, don't forget it's easier for me though, um, When you look at [00:08:00] issues like, um, I have a house, uh, I have a very supportive, um, group of friends and partner, and I can't be set for my job, whereas a lot of people don't enjoy the sort of anchoring that I've got. So it makes it much easier for someone like me to, to be able to do it. Plus, like, my knowledge base is, is, has gotten good, and I can, um, as a teaching resource, people don't jump on your head, so. I'm remarkably good at that. [00:08:30] Particularly those that want to get involved. Um, We have a saying that AIDS is as much about attitude as it is about a virus. And, We've always said that we're not part of the problem of AIDS, we're part of the solution. And I've been to suggest that if this were a disease of nuns, or politicians, or managing directors of companies, we'd be nowhere near the problems of it. What AIDS does is, is bring up all people's prejudices [00:09:00] about, you know, whores, pofters and junkies, basically. Um, and it's very difficult, like it's quite difficult for, say, a heterosexual man who's acquired HIV. Um, they're often very quiet because they don't want to be labelled as a profiteer or a junkie. Um, and yet the fact of the matter is that we have increasing numbers of heterosexuals with the disease. In fact, on a world scale, it is a heterosexual STD. But in New Zealand, it's still predominantly men who have sex with men. But I don't see that we're going to be any different from other [00:09:30] countries, certainly related to the treatment of the heterosexual. For a while, I felt that, um, There had been nothing done by the established AIDS groups about reintegrating us back within our respective communities. You know, I maintain that people with HIV have every right to live socially, economically, and sexually fulfilling lives. And Yeah, one of the [00:10:00] issues that I feel quite strong about, I mean, I defend the right of HIV positive people to have safe sex. I mean, what's the message of safe sex all about? But often, talking to gay men, um, If they knew you were HIV positive, people said they wouldn't have sex with me if they knew. And yet, at the same time, a lot of gay men expect to be told someone is HIV positive. They expect to know. And that's ridiculous. I mean, if you know, you're going to get them to say, no, I'm not going to go to bed with you. And if you don't say anything, you're HIV [00:10:30] positive, they're likely to be shitting when they find out. But I have to say that, like, in the Wellington area, the Wellington region, there's a, I feel much safer being a gay man and much safer being a person with HIV. Um, because I think the AIDS Foundation have worked very hard at creating a supportive social environment in this area. Yeah, I, a lot of people with HIV, gay men with HIV, express similar sentiments to me about [00:11:00] that I don't feel that comfortable in the gay venues when other people know me. I've been out with people, and because I've got a high ish profile, I know that certain people recognise me. And I've recognised friends and colleagues of mine who are HIV positive, say at the Toledo bar and that. But I definitely get signals like, don't come over. You know, because a lot of the, a lot of the, a lot of the guys are fairly well kept separate. Um, and a lot of people I guess are worried about me. [00:11:30] or something like that. People just make assumptions. One thing I've been critical of the AIDS foundation is that I don't think there's been enough done about reintegrating, reintegrating people back into their communities. Mind you, you see in New Zealand, it seems that most people here rely on their historic family and friends connections as support. very much. Which is slightly different from the [00:12:00] American peer support type programs. There are, yeah, in Wellington for instance, we don't seem to have a very successful peer group. We've got a small one going, it's been quite stable, but it's not as good as say, what's happening in Auckland. But that's because a lot of people don't want to get involved. A lot of people get on with their lives real well, thank you very much. Um, yeah, so one of the, one of the more difficult topics people have to address is, um, Has our community been, [00:12:30] um, accessible sexually to people with HIV? Do you see what I'm saying here? I think that, I think that's an issue that gay men have to look at, that it's okay to have sex with somebody who's HIV positive. It's okay to form a relationship. I mean, certainly it may, may only be for the duration of a few years, or who knows, it could be 20 years. But, You can, people can achieve a great quality of relationship. I'm struck by the [00:13:00] poignancy of situations where both partners are positive. I find it quite desperately sad. Especially one partner going before the other. Um, yeah, I had a bit of a shock last week when I was given an AIDS diagnosis. And while I should know better, it's, none of these still have an effect on me. It's, it seems to move you into a different camp. Um, and I don't really want to have to deal with those sorts of [00:13:30] feelings, but I guess I'm going to have to. I mean, personally I think we should scrub the word AIDS and just have, you know, HIV as a rangeable from infection to HIV illness or related death or whatever. Um, At the moment, you know, things are getting a bit better. I've spent a couple of weeks in hospital. Um, I've lost a lot of weight. I have a type of TB infection. [00:14:00] And the news for that is not particularly good. However, um, I think I'll also go a lot on how I feel. I'm feeling much, much better. I'm a very, I'm very contented. I mean, I've had people say to me, Oh, why don't you set up and go for a trip to Hawaii, and do this and do that. I've done a lot of traveling. I spent a couple of years on a big sailboat sailing the Atlantic. I've had a very adventurous and full life. I've got no desire to travel. [00:14:30] Um, as I said, to me it was more important that I have quality of life and be content. And I can be content and have quality of life here in Wellington without moving anywhere. I've got a nice home. I've got my dogs. And a wonderful network of friends. People who I know I can call on at any time to come and help out. But most importantly is, is having a partner [00:15:00] who's so, so supportive. Yeah, um, There's not a day goes by where I don't think of AIDS or think of dying. And I think that's common to most people with HIV. But it's a matter of having to be positive. Um, And living well. Because the alternative's a nightmare. You know, if, if, if I was to dwell on The number of people that I know who have [00:15:30] died or I've sat with them and seen how sick people get, that can be quite depressing. And I try to avoid doing that. Sometimes it's difficult, you know, energy loss is a major problem for people with AIDS, and just physically getting out of bed, um, can be quite difficult. But, I do, I spend a lot of time doing voluntary work, maybe 30 hours a week, even more. And I find that immensely rewarding, [00:16:00] and I enjoy a good working relationship with other AIDS organisations like the Prostitutes Collective and the Drug Information Group. I'd say that being the HIV positive representative there, that it's contributed to the successful running of the base. And I do a lot of work with the Department of Health. Um, that they don't like the word advocacy, so we have to use the word consultancy. But, you see, there's a lot of issues that people, [00:16:30] policy makers, policy makers decide upon. And they can often be quite offensive to the virus or on the wrong tack. So we try to get them at the bottom level and just say, hey, consult with us. Like some of the literature, we, we found offensive lines in literature and stuff that they've been able to take out. But we, no, I'd say, one of the things I have to say is in New Zealand, um, I came back from a conference in Spain a couple of years ago, and there were 500 people with [00:17:00] HIV and AIDS at this conference. And I thought to myself, thank God, I live in New Zealand. I mean, I know we don't have human rights protection on that, but in terms of quality of medical care and treatment, and accessibility to it, to treatments was as good as, probably the best in the world. Um, I wonder how many countries in the world you can have a, somebody with AIDA to bring up the Associate Minister of Health and have an appointment the next day. And we were able to do that. We have good lines of communication, good access to the Minister, down through all the [00:17:30] officials in the Health Department. And there's a lot of goodwill. Toward us. Um, which probably explains why we never really got an ACT UP going in New Zealand. Because a lot of the issues that ACT UP are concerned about aren't too much of a problem here. But things are looking, we have to remain diligent. Um, one of the major areas of concern for us is the lack of privacy done by legislation. We know that, um, you know, we've had [00:18:00] calls by the police to have us registered no longer in the computer. It turns out that, um, certain patient records have our, have our status recorded on the central computer. And given the fact that, that we don't have privacy legislation. And data sharing is occurring between government departments. My HIV status, I assume, is confidential between me and the hospital specialist and my GP. But we know that that's not the case. In a lot of instances. I've run out, I think I've run out of things to say.

IRN: 7835
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/gareth_watkins_pridenz_artificial_intelligence.html
ATL REF: 
ATL URL: 
TITLE: Gareth Watkins on PrideNZ and Artificial Intelligence
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Gareth Watkins
INTERVIEWER: Roger Smith
TAGS: 2000s; 2010s; 2020s; AI prompt; Alexander Turnbull Library; Application Programming Interface (API); Gareth Watkins; Generative Artificial Intelligence (Gen AI); Library of Congress; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; National Library of New Zealand; OpenAI; Python; Roger Smith; Te Reo Māori; archives; artificial intelligence; chatgpt. com; collection management system; descript. com; google. com; ia; interviewing; notebooklm. google; otter. ai; pridenz. com; pronouns
DATE: 15 December 2024
YEAR: 2024
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: December 2024
TEXT: Kia ora. Today I'm talking with Gareth Watkins, the founder and director of Pride NZ. Gareth, can you tell me about the origins of Pride NZ and a bit about what its aims are? Pride NZ started in 2009, so just over 15 years ago, and it has three aims that haven't changed since it started. The first is to be a first hand eyewitness.[00:00:30] community resource to allow as many people to hear rainbow experiences from Aotearoa as possible. The resource, uh, is to be, uh, inclusive, uh, hopefully, uh, promoting health and betterment for, uh, the all rainbow people, um, and, and a community resource that is not for profit. Uh, so it's been running 15 years, 15 plus years. And there are now over 1, 000 audio recordings on the [00:01:00] website and the audio recordings range from interviews to recordings of community events, uh, to, um, to recordings of, of things like, um, the annual AIDS candlelight memorial. You've developed a relationship in recent years with the National Library. I wonder if you can tell me a bit about how the relationship came about and how it's managed. Well, it was, uh, it was just something that [00:01:30] happened quite organically in, uh, mid 2021. I received an email from the Library of Congress in the United States saying we would like to, uh, we would like to to take a capture of the PrideNZ website. So keep a record of the audio and, and also the information around the audio. And I was just blown away. I mean, this was the first time that a major institution had really been interested in [00:02:00] taking a snapshot or capturing the PrideNZ collection. Uh, for posterity, uh, and so we put out a press release, uh, Pride NZ put out a press release and, uh, from that press release, um, I got some approaches from the National Library and the Alexander Turnbull Library, um, wanting to, to have a further discussion about, um, whether a archive in New Zealand, uh, could, or a public institution in New Zealand could, uh, also hold on to the [00:02:30] material. And I just thought that was really, uh, amazing because I think it's so important for, um, uh, our communities to be represented, particularly in state run, uh, organizations and institutions. So I was very keen. And so we, uh, began an ongoing deposit of Pride NZ material with the Alexander Turnbull library. Initially, it was around about 850 [00:03:00] ish recordings, and that was done as bulk, and that actually, I think for, um, any institution receiving that amount of material. Uh, but one of the really nice things now is that, uh, we have ongoing deposits. So every month I'm depositing maybe, you know, three to four recordings, uh, into the Alexander Turnbull Library. So the accruals keep happening. I think it becomes a lot more [00:03:30] manageable for the, um, the institution receiving that material. Because they don't have to have a like a special project to, to catalogue it. Um, and it just is a, a wonderful incentive to, to keep going and doing recordings, knowing that actually the recording you do that month, uh, will actually end up into the, uh, National Library, um, collections, uh, which are there in perpetuity.[00:04:00] And it's a case though of you making sure that you are pushing the material on a fairly regular basis, a monthly basis to the National Library rather than them coming to you every month and saying, what have you got? Oh yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So, uh, I mean, it's, it's a very, um, easy relationship, I think, uh, in that, uh, I'm not, certainly not being hounded too [00:04:30] produce material, but I'm also, when I'm submitting material, I mean, it's being welcomed. So, uh, I think we've kind of reached a, uh, a nice balance where a good amount of material is going in per month. Um, it's not swamping anybody and, uh, and it's, it's ticking over, um, very much business as usual, uh, or certainly from, from the Pride NZ perspective. So what about, uh, other organizations? What sort of advice would you give [00:05:00] them wanting to establish similar relationships? I think having a Champions within the, uh, main institution or the institution that's collecting, uh, is key. Uh, someone that is a point person that you can go to and say, Hey, would you like this or would you not like that? Or, um, you know, yes. Someone who you can bring up issues if there are issues, um, there actually haven't been any issues, um, it's, it's, it's [00:05:30] been very seamless, but I, I think actually having somebody there that, uh, knows the collection, knows you, uh, is, is very beneficial. Okay, let's talk a bit about AI. When did Pride NZ begin its AI journey? And what were the key drivers to, that started you exploring these tools? AI has been with Pride NZ, or Pride has been with AI, or Pride has, Pride NZ has been using, uh, AI [00:06:00] for a good number of years now. I think probably the first use came in around 2020 when we got the audio recordings transcribed by a platform called Otter and that is probably the first time, uh, We used AI. So prior to about 2020, audio transcription was very manual. And [00:06:30] so there are a number of transcriptions on the website that were done by, um, a person. Uh, but at the time it was about one US dollar per minute of audio transcription, uh, when you're dealing with, you know, 800 plus audio files, um, that is just, uh, prohibitive in terms of cost. for, for Pride NZ, which is a very small organization. Um, and it wasn't until really 2020 that, uh, there [00:07:00] was, uh, an opportunity to actually use AI to automatically create transcriptions. The transcriptions aren't perfect by, by any means, but they give an insight into the content and, uh, And for Pride NZ it was all about really unlocking the door to the audio collections to make them more accessible, to make them more discover by things like Google or Bing or [00:07:30] whoever's indexing the site. Um, that was the key to, to, so the, yeah, the transcriptions, um, are, are always, um, uh, footnoted with saying, you know, please make sure you. Uh, go back to the original audio to confirm what is written, in fact, is what has been said, uh, because they are not perfect, but they are a very good way of, of opening up the collections for, um, indexing. Well, speaking of perfection, uh, or [00:08:00] not, and rethinking about the way that AI has developed at such a pace in recent months, even, let alone recent years, um, to what extent can they accurately transcribe, say, audio featuring Australian and New Zealand accents, or even te reo Maori? They're getting better. They really are getting better. I mean, I, uh, fortunately saved some, uh, transcriptions from, uh, the first time we, we ran that in 2020. Um, [00:08:30] and just last year, um, Christmas last year I ran the entire, uh, collection through another transcription software, uh, and I could compare the two and you could see within three or four years the, the, the, the absolute leaps and Um, ahead, uh, that, that the, uh, software is now currently making, um, or the AI models are making. Um, in terms of Teo, uh, it's still [00:09:00] not good. Uh, I think the best I've seen so far has been a, um. piece of software called Descript, uh, but, um, uh, not being a Trello speaker myself, um, but you can kind of follow along the audio with the text and see, you know, well, the semi accuracy of it. Um, It's a really interesting question about do we feed our content into AI [00:09:30] models so that they learn from us, or do we say no, we're keeping that, that, that material, um, and don't learn from us. I mean, I think for the Pride NZ material, and this is not necessarily talking about the, um, you know, Torreo aspect, but for generally for Pride NZ material, I Like the idea of feeding it into the AI models because then it's, then the AI models are learning, um, about rainbow [00:10:00] heritage in New Zealand, and I would rather have the AI model talking with some accuracy than speculation. So I think, uh, for the Pride NZ collection, which has always been public, so I mean the, the, uh, the, the, one of their biggest, The big ideas with Pride NZ is that, uh, we record material to be public. Uh, we're not recording oral histories that will be locked away in an archive for 10, 20, 30 years. Uh, it's, it's about kind of an immediate publication of [00:10:30] thoughts and ideas and events. So, um, I don't see it as a, as a, as a big stretch to feed that material into AI to actually make it public. AI better for everyone this speaks really speaks to accessibility doesn't it so tell us about how you're using say ChatGPT to further enhance accessibility of Pride NZ. I mean ChatGPT has been a It [00:11:00] has had an amazing growth in the last year. So I got my first ChatGPT subscription in November 2023. And what it could do then to what it can do now is absolutely amazing. When I got that subscription, I realized that actually, AI offered up to small to medium sized organizations like PrideNZ or any [00:11:30] smaller archives the ability to really, uh, open up the catalogs to, to really create like summaries, um, or, um, keywords for searching. Uh, and so the first thing, uh, we did with AI was, We, uh, created a new set of audio transcriptions of all the audio files. We then said, let's feed those audio transcriptions into ChatGPT. In fact, it was [00:12:00] actually OpenAI, who run ChatGPT, OpenAI have a, um, another way of accessing the AI models through their API. Um, and it allows you to do things in bulk. Um, and so using, uh, OpenAI, we basically went through and we fed in each one Audio transcription and got back a 400 word summary of the content that could never have been achieved [00:12:30] by Myself doing it myself. I mean it would have it would have been a lifetime's work I mean potentially you could have had a lot of volunteers doing it, but actually, you know, those summaries were coming back every 10 15 seconds per per recording. And when you're talking about recordings and summarizing recordings that are two to three hours long, like, where do you begin? Where do you begin? So the idea was that we would summarize all these, um, uh, all [00:13:00] these recordings, create summaries, um, and then that then feeds into things like, um, creating an AI chatbot, wouldn't it be amazing to be able to actually have a discussion in conversation with a, a chatbot about, uh, Rainbow New Zealand? And rather than, um, Diving into all of those transcriptions, which is very kind of, um, resource [00:13:30] hungry for the AI. Um, the AI can actually use the summaries that have already been generated to formulate its answers. And so, every step of the way, you're, you're opening up the opportunity of AI to, um, take, um, what you're thinking a step further. So this opens up a whole world of trust and questions of authenticity, doesn't it really? So, um, how do you identify AI [00:14:00] generated content for users of your website? I think the key is to be very open and transparent and clear so at the bottom of each summary on the website there is a sentence that says this has been generated by generative AI and here's a link to the prompt that we fed the AI model. So you can actually see how, [00:14:30] um, the information we asked the AI to, to consider and, and how to, um, how to phrase things. I think the big thing for the Pride NZ website is when it relates to pronouns. So we don't, we don't have a list of. all the people on the website and their pronouns, uh, and their pronouns may have changed over time and may change over time. So, uh, rather than [00:15:00] saying he or she or here in, in the description, uh, we've basically gone for a default of they, them. Um, and then. We can, um, change the summaries if people come to us, and some people have, saying, actually, um, these are my pronouns, uh, please update the summary, and, and very happy to do that. But I think that was the big thing for us, was, um, yeah, to, you know, be very, very respectful in, in, [00:15:30] in, in, in that regard. Um, so that's very obvious in terms of, um, the, the prompt that we've used, um, on other pages. So we also do a summary say of newspaper articles, um, very clearly says that, um, it is a summary generated by generative AI, um, and that may contain errors as may the transcription contain errors, but I. I would rather have the transcription with errors [00:16:00] online than have nothing online. Because I think you can always go back to the original audio which is also on the page and double confirm. And it should be up to the human to then go back and listen to the audio and go, Okay, that person did say that. Um, and, uh, yeah. So Rudy, you're using this as a finding aid rather than to tell the whole story necessarily? Yeah, absolutely. It's a, it's a, it's a great finding aid, but the really interesting thing and [00:16:30] the really exciting thing is that, can it be the whole story? Like the, the current developments in AI, for instance, with, uh, Google's Notebook LM, where you can feed in three or four transcripts and get it to auto generate a audio podcast of talking about the, the, um, the, the recordings. And so [00:17:00] at the moment it's a finding aid, but, but potentially it could be a way of creating content as well. What kind of audience feedback have you received so far? Very little, to be honest. Very little direct feedback in terms of anything to do with the AI. I mean, I think the feedback has been, please correct the pronouns. That's really the only thing that I've received. I know, for instance, if you do Google searches [00:17:30] on content or people that are mentioned in Pride NZ material, often Pride NZ is now at the highest level in terms of hits. Obviously, the text based version of the audio recordings is having a dramatic impact. If you didn't have the text based version, Google wouldn't even see those audio recordings. So I think it's certainly made things a lot more discoverable. Um, another [00:18:00] thing that has made things way more discoverable is having the audio recordings. content in Alexander Turnbull Library and on the National Library website, uh, because I am now getting requests from people that have discovered stuff, um, via the National Library website that may never have come to Pride NZ. So, uh, I think dependent, you know, um, the National Library has given, um, a new pathway for people to come to the Pride NZ [00:18:30] collection. So really it's, discovery is being enhanced from two directions, isn't it really? Through the relationship with it being archived elsewhere, but also through the efforts that you're putting in with artificial intelligence to make people be able Yeah, and it just comes back to that whole point of the original idea behind Pride NZ being that, um, we want to be visible. Um, you know, for too long our, [00:19:00] uh, you know, our stories have either been hidden or, um, obliterated, um, wiped out by either, um, uh, families or the state. And, um, this is a chance to actually say, well, actually, um, We are a very proud group of people. Uh, we've got amazing stories to tell. We've got amazing people within communities who show, uh, not only, um, resilience and [00:19:30] advocacy for themselves, but, but, but, but also for their communities. And, um, it's just such a, a rich, uh, vein of, um, amazing lives to be celebrated. Okay, so in addition to managing the Pride NZ website, you're also currently the Collections Data Manager at Papatongarewa. How have you been able to apply what you've learnt through the experiences with [00:20:00] Pride NZ and the website there to the context of the museum's collection? Really interesting, uh, really interesting question. Uh, I think first of all I would say that, um, Let's define what the collections are first of all to give it a bit of context. So the Pride NZ collection, very new collection, a very new collection. Uh, it's been around say 15 years. The collection in its entirety is meant to be public. It's, it's public facing. Um, the [00:20:30] vast majority of the content, uh, is either created or commissioned by Pride NZ. So, um, Pride NZ has a direct relationship with it. with those items. Whereas Te Papa, uh, which has been collecting for 150 plus years, um, not everything in Te Papa's collections is Or should be available to everyone. Um, there are good reasons why some things are restricted. [00:21:00] Sometimes we don't know the provenance of a particular items in the collection. And so it's a, it's, it's quite a different kettle of fish in terms of, um, Thinking about, kind of, rights, and ownership, and, uh, you know, is this a good thing to be putting into AI? So, I think the big thing from the experiences of the Pride NZ AI work, it's an [00:21:30] example of what AI can do with a heritage collection. I don't know if it necessarily translates into work that I would do directly at Te Papa, but I think it's a really good conversation starter, and I think it's a really good way of showing how AI can be used in a positive way on heritage collections. And what advice would you give individuals or [00:22:00] GLAM sector wanting to explore using AI tools themselves in association with their own collections? I think the big thing is just to initially play with AI to um, to feed it information that's already publicly available and see what it comes back with. To increase your, um, AI literacy. Uh, so, uh, that will hopefully, uh, reduce fears, [00:22:30] but it will also bring up challenges in terms of, well, you know, what, what, what are the rights implications? Um, what happens when we put it into this model? Do we want it to be learning from our data? Uh, maybe we do, maybe we don't. Um, so I, I think. Playing with AI and playing with a whole variety of different types of AI is, is incredibly useful. I would suggest learning, um, a free computer language, something like Python, which you can [00:23:00] easily learn online. Because one of the really neat things with AI, and particularly things like, say, ChatGPT, uh, it will help you code, so it will help you interact with the world. the different AI platforms, um, and a little bit of, um, coding knowledge using Python, uh, which is again freely available, um, can make development, um, really, really fast. I'd be wary [00:23:30] about developing In house models, uh, at this stage because I think AI is moving so fast that the large commercial platforms are putting a lot of energy and money into, uh, trying to outdo each other. Um, and I, my fear would be that you would, you would buy an in house model, uh, that would be out of date. You know, within a month [00:24:00] of, of, of having it, I think as an initial step, particularly for small to medium organizations, I would, I would do a subscription to a cloud based, uh, a commercial, uh, based product, say like, um, open AI or, or others say I like Amazon or Google, uh, because, uh, they have got the expertise to, uh, Uh, to, to generate those models, to, to maintain those models. Um, [00:24:30] whereas actually a lot of organizations don't have an IT department. Um, so, uh, yeah, I, I would personally go for a, um, more of a commercial based model to begin with. Um, yeah. Okay, so I'm a very small glam institution. What kind of investment am I looking at in terms of AI and upskilling? Yeah, I think a lot of, well, if you go down the road of, [00:25:00] Doing a commercial subscription to somewhere, so like, um, ChatGPT You know, you're talking 20 or 30 a month US to use to really kind of to get to understand how it might work If you're wanting to go down that kind of programming route where you can actually use Python code to [00:25:30] query, say, OpenAI. Well, we were doing an experiment the other day where we were creating descriptions of collection items for, it was just over one New Zealand cent per 300 word description. Uh, and those descriptions were coming back within 10 seconds. Um, I think A key thing is making sure that your [00:26:00] data, your original data, the metadata around collection items, uh, and say in, in this case with pride nz, um, you know, the record date, the location, the people that are in it, um, is all up to scratch because actually AI is only as good as the material that you feed it. So if you feed it, um, a lot of data with holes in. Um, then it won't be as, as good, but actually if you can, and this, this is a really fantastic thing for my [00:26:30] job, say at Te Papa, which is all about, uh, really trying to, um, encourage people to enter appropriate data into the appropriate fields in our collection management system. Uh, this is a great carrot because we can say, actually, if you put this data into EMU, uh, our collection management system, um, then. There are amazing possibilities with AI that we could, we could try. There are amazing possibilities. It's really exciting when you think about it. And just the speed with [00:27:00] which things are changing is extraordinary. So, in conclusion, what's next for Pride NZ, bringing us back to where we started? Great question. Uh, It's about getting our data in order, uh, first and foremost, because, uh, I think I'm very aware that actually good data will give good results for AI. So making sure that we've got things like production date. Who's speaking, [00:27:30] um, all that kind of core stuff about say collection items that you need, um, making sure that that's there. Um, and then it's just about being open to the AI possibilities that are being presented. Uh, for instance, the other day I was made aware of a notebook, Google notebook LM, where you can feed in. to up to 50 sources of information and it will create timelines based [00:28:00] on those 50 sources or it will create summaries based on those 50 sources so you know exactly where the source of your information is coming from and then it can do all these amazing things. Now for me that Google LM was completely new and who knows what will be around in six months a year. Uh, so that, yeah, that's really exciting. Um, the, the kind of the next biggest thing, uh, we're doing on, uh, Pride NZ [00:28:30] is we've just started summarizing newspaper articles that are on the Papers Past website. So these newspaper articles, uh, released under Creative Commons. Um, and, uh, the, the, uh, OCR, the Optical Character Recognition, um, is a bit variable on on some of the old newspapers, but one of the lovely things that creating summaries does is that it tidies that all up. That actually the [00:29:00] summary that AI replies with doesn't have any of the inaccuracies of the OCR. It's kind of got a good A, a, a gist of, of, of the article. Um, and it makes it a lot easier to read, a lot easier to discover. Um, and so currently, uh, we're going through looking at, um, rainbow related content, uh, from, uh, early New Zealand papers and, uh, trying to, uh, identify and acknowledge, uh, our rainbow history.

IRN: 7831
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/inaugural_world_aids_day_parliamentary_breakfast_part_two.html
ATL REF: 
ATL URL: 
TITLE: Inaugural World AIDS Day Parliamentary Breakfast - Part 2
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: David Miller; Jane Bruning; Joe Rich; Kit Harding; Marama Mullen-Tamati; Mark Fisher; Milly Stewart; Peter Saxton
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; 2020s; AZT; Africa; Aotearoa New Zealand; Body Positive; Burnett Foundation Aotearoa; David Miller; HIV / AIDS; HIV Action plan (2022-2032); HIV education; HIV stigma; HIV testing and prevention; HIV testing data; HIV transmission; Jane Bruning; Joe Rich; Kit Harding; London; Marama Mullen-Tamati; Mark Fisher; Milly Stewart; Peter Saxton; Positive Speakers Bureau; Positive Women Inc; Toitū te Ao; Wellington
DATE: 3 December 2024
YEAR: 2024
LOCATION: Banquet Hall, Parliament buildings
CONTEXT: Audio from the Inaugural World AIDS Day Parliamentary Breakfast, held on 3 December 2024 in Wellington. The recording has been split into two parts - part one can be heard here. The panel discussion was facilitated by Ass. Prof Peter Saxton and included Joe Rich (Burnett Foundation Aotearoa), Jane Bruning (Positive Women Inc), Milly Stewart (Toitū te Ao) and Mark Fisher (Body Positive Inc). Thanks to all of the participants at the event for allowing their speeches and kōrero to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: December 2024
TEXT: Ngā mihi, thank you, Clive and Amohia, uh, and I couldn't agree more. If there's one thing to underscore this morning, it's that communities need to be in the lead and whether that's gay and bisexual men or Māori or any key population, uh, communities know best. Uh, I'd now like to introduce our next speaker, uh, David Miller. Uh, David has supported the [00:00:30] HIV response since the 1980s, initially as a clinical psychologist where he co developed the protocols and algorithms for voluntary counselling and testing when HIV was first identified. He's worked internationally supporting the HIV response in a number of countries for the WHO, UN, Global Fund and UNAIDS. In 2010 he was tasked with reviewing the HIV services available to people living with HIV in New Zealand [00:01:00] which led to the funding of our peer support organisations. Nowadays he lives in the Banks Peninsula in the South Island, passionately supporting conservation efforts. Please welcome David. Tēnā koutou katoa. I'm David Miller. It's a privilege to have been asked to attend this event. I want to thank particularly the [00:01:30] Burnett Foundation Aotearoa for your kindness. But all of the organizations here, thank you, uh, for the invitation. You're all so important to this country, as are those who we've lost. I'm going to lightly touch on a selective short history of development of HIV AIDS and just a few heroes of our times from beyond our shores, as well as within. And I'll briefly discuss the [00:02:00] courage New Zealanders have shown and continue to show in their work. HIV in this country. I'm an AIDS dinosaur. I trained in Aotearoa, New Zealand, as a clinical psychologist, but I worked in that capacity in St. Mary's Hospital in central London. On the 9th of August, 1983, I was asked to work with a young man on our infectious diseases ward there who had [00:02:30] Neumsystis carinii pneumonia. Meeting Adrian started over 20 years of total commitment to HIV. As a clinician, then as a public health specialist in WHO and UNAIDS. I worked with people living with HIV and health practitioners all over Europe, North America, Asia, Africa and the Middle East. And as was said, um, I authored a report on HIV services in this [00:03:00] country. Goodness, 14 years ago. This, most of my work though, was in the pre treatment era of HIV, a period of intense fear, stigma, uh, and of clinical revolution. For example, in community and patient engagement, diagnostic and treatment protocols, and social license to discuss sex and death. The 1980s was also a decade of courage. [00:03:30] Courage is a vital element. in safeguarding the health of the public. Public health is like a finely woven korowai. It's composed of many threads, including vital considerations of gender, ethnicity, culture, law, education, politics, finance, innovation, technology, security, integrity, empathy, love, and courage. Courage is key because [00:04:00] the challenge in the global HIV AIDS experience has always been stigma, as we've heard. That's what made the coalesced communities at risk in the United States, in the UK, in New Zealand, Northern Europe, Africa, Asia, in fact, globally, such brave acts. Those most affected stood up. Listening to a 1985 radio interview with Bruce Burnett the [00:04:30] other day, I was struck by his extraordinary empathy and concern for patient confidentiality because of stigma surrounding AIDS. It may not always feel like it, but New Zealand community groups have changed the world very much for the better. By successfully arguing for homosexual law reform in 86, establishing the world's first state sponsored [00:05:00] national needle exchange program in 87, and decriminalizing sex work in 2003. At the very least, stigma had become delegitimized through such acts. I think of the courage of Bruce Burnett, of Mark Thomas, of I. D. Auckland, of Warren Lindbergh, of Jane Bruning, of Bruce Kilminster, and of Marama. And I [00:05:30] think of the courage of the medical teams who endorsed their work, and of the parliamentarians. I'm sorry, most of them have left now. I wanted to say something nice. Back in London in the early 80s, our hospital was the go to for AIDS treatment, mainly because we had more experience than other hospitals. Tests for HTLV 3, hands up those who know what HTLV [00:06:00] 3 is, good on you, um, it's the precursor name for HIV, were becoming available, and our clinical collective began writing about the perils of HIV, of unconsented testing and arguing often against strong medical opinion for no testing without counselling. We established the National AIDS Counselling Training Unit in London to ensure national consistency in the [00:06:30] procedures employed for voluntary counselling and testing and those protocols were adapted globally. Physicians like Tony Pinching and Ian Weller worked with advocacy and patient groups to improve their treatment protocols. The people we worked with were advising us on how we could do our job better. We published a clinical textbook, devoid of any mention of ARVs, called The Management [00:07:00] of AIDS Patients in 1986, and then a companion volume, Living with AIDS and HIV in 1987. AZT had just become experimentally available in the UK at a cost then of 24, 500 per patient per year. Around about 160, 000 New Zealand dollars per patient per year today. Senior politicians, policemen and others in England argued that such money should [00:07:30] not be wasted as AIDS was self inflicted. So 80s, political empathy for people living with HIV was a major challenge, but for two outstanding parliamentarians, Norman Fowler of the Conservative Party and Chris Smith of Labour, the first UK politician to declare his HIV positive status. In the US, Everett Koop, Surgeon General and Tony [00:08:00] Fauci of the NIH enabled the first substantive research funding for AIDS education, public education, in the 1980s against fierce political headwinds. These politicians were matched in their courage at that time by some here in New Zealand. WHO's global program on AIDS was established under Jonathan Mann in early 1986 to raise awareness, to formulate evidence based policies, to provide [00:08:30] technical and financial support to countries, to initiate relevant social, behavioral, and biomedical research, promote participation by NGOs, and and to champion the rights of those living with HIV. I'm struck by the complete relevance of that mission to the content and spirit of our National HIV Action Plan for 2023 to 30. My wife Carol and I, uh, [00:09:00] were both there in the early days of GPA, and we were learning about the desperate situation involving entire communities in Africa Asia and Eastern Europe. In the North, many courageous people stepped up. Cleve Jones in the AIDS memorial quilt, Larry Kramer forming ACT UP, Tony Grimshaw in London, and Princess Diana shaking hands with an AIDS patient. [00:09:30] AIDS in the 80s led to hitherto untried and successful engagement in, with, uh, uh, advocacy groups. For example, in ethical committees overseeing clinical trials. It was unheard of to have patient groups participating in ethical, um, committees. And policy and funding developments in clinical care and behavioural research and education. We started looking to the south. [00:10:00] The UN General Assembly debated AIDS in October 1987, the first ever disease to be discussed in that way. In 1988, the World Health Assembly in Geneva recognized and published a resolution on the vital importance of addressing AIDS discrimination and stigma. And on the 1st of December, 1988, World AIDS Day was observed for the first time, 36 [00:10:30] years ago. The 90s was a decade of testing and counselling, development of treatments and rollout. We saw the Red Ribbon Project, development of oral testing, of heart, viral load tests, neverapine, home testing kits, and many other things. We were truly now in the treatment era. In New Zealand, of course, the 90s saw the development, uh, the establishment of positive women, um, uh, [00:11:00] and of, um, Body Positive Incorporated as a national peer support organization. UNAIDS was formed under Peter Piot in 96, and in 97, it estimated that 30 million adults and children worldwide had HIV, and that each day, 16, 000 people were being newly infected. But it was still the subject of appalling, lethal, political denial and social [00:11:30] taboo. So time for more courage. I think of Kenneth Kaunda, first president of Zambia, publicly addressing the fact that family members have died of AIDS and urging mature political debate amongst his African fellow leaders. I think of Nkosi Johnson of South Africa, of Catholic Sister Maureen in Uganda, demonstrating and [00:12:00] distributing more condoms to rural populations than many governments of the day. Awa Kolsek of Nigeria, demanding that women be supported to say no to unsafe sex. Martina Clarke, the first UN GPO spokesperson. Ian Campbell and Alison Rader of the Salvation Army in Eastern Africa, demonstrating the power of shared confidentiality for security and [00:12:30] safety and support of people living with AIDS in rural and urban communities. Noreen Kaliba and Sam Kalibala and Eli Katabira forming TASO in Uganda, a laboratory for community social developments in support of people living with HIV. Fareed Abdullah from the West in Cape, openly defying denialism and offering treatments despite threats of imprisonment from his own government for doing so. [00:13:00] Zaki Ahmad and Mark Hayward of the UK. the Treatment Action Campaign. Justice Edwin Cameron of South Africa publicly disclosing his HIV status as an act of defiance against his own government and a challenge to them. And Mahinda Watsa in Delhi exhorting his vast radio audience to protect young girls from early marriage and to adopt safer sex. Ethicists like Ron Bayer Lawyers like [00:13:30] Susan Timberlake and activists like Mark Harrington have acted up. Crucially helped redefine support and accountability in HIV AIDS. At the end of the decade, WHO announced that AIDS had become the fourth biggest killer worldwide. And the number one killer in Africa. 33 million people were now living with HIV worldwide. and 14 million had died of AIDS. [00:14:00] Average life expectancy in Sub Saharan Africa fell from 62 years to 47 years as a result of AIDS. 15 years drop. Some countries had prevalence rates of 25 percent or 33 percent. And in the early 2000s, at the end of the old millennium, my former boss, Joss Perriens, told an annual AIDS conference about the unused [00:14:30] capacity of generic drugs manufacturers for making AIDS treatment at a fraction of Western prices. His presentation ultimately led to the breaking of patents on the grounds of a global health emergency. In 2001, and a massive expansion of care options, more political courage on display, President George W. Bush created PEPFAR, a multi billion dollar project, which combined with the Clinton [00:15:00] Foundation secured price reductions for HIV AIDS drugs from generic manufacturers. In, in December of that year, WHO announced its three by five initiative. to bring treatment to 3 million people by the year 2005. It took longer than that, but by 2010, 6. 5 million people in developing countries were receiving ARV [00:15:30] treatments. And now, 40 million globally are living with HIV. 86 percent of them know their status. And 31 million, that's 76%. are accessing antiretroviral medication. Sub Saharan Africa had its lowest AIDS incidence last year. But it's time to come home to Aotearoa, and I know I'm pushing the boundaries of time here. [00:16:00] The best presentation I've seen about New Zealand's early AIDS years was made by Warren Lindberg, on the 6th of July, 2015. It's online. It's a magnificent reflection. I urge you to consult it. It's a masterpiece, actually. New Zealand's legislative community and research accomplishments over 40 years have inspired and upheld beneficial public health responses in advocacy, health promotion, and [00:16:30] rights based partnerships globally. Not least in the recent removal of HIV from the barrier of being a high cost condition with an immigration policy. They've seen us continue to be a low incidence country with a really good shot of achieving zero transmission by 2030. And we've got the plan to make it happen. That plan has goals that extend and build on recommendations I made in [00:17:00] my 2010 review of services for people living with HIV in this country. I, I just want to pause because it really is a good plan. It's a really good plan. And, um, I want to thank the politicians of all parties who embraced it, and crucially, who have funded it. Keep holding the feet to the fire, though. It's a [00:17:30] superbly well done plan, but here's the second point of my talk. Please make sure we stay the course and maintain the pledged funding. Our country punches above its weight. It can win against HIV transmission while strengthening communities, deepening respect, and honouring the dignity of all involved. That includes supporting a broader suite of treatment options, and as we've always done, [00:18:00] and as we've seen, working with communities rather than on them. I recently pondered in print whether, through the tragedy and triumphs of the AIDS era, and because human beings are truly baffling, if all we had really learned was how to make a new pill. The answer of course is no. Our experience, our losses, and our public health korowai have changed the [00:18:30] world. We've had world changes here in community activism and support, in clinical medicine, and in public health promotion, in research and epidemiology, and in policy and politics. To all of you,[00:19:00] so much, David, for all of your contributions and your reflections and the contextualization, uh, and the global response. Um, it's now time for, uh, um, panel discussion of community organizations. Um, This will be facilitated by Associate Professor Peter Saxton. Uh, so I'd like to invite Peter, um, and the, and Mark and Millie and [00:19:30] Jane, uh, from the community orgs to join me, uh, on the, on the stage here. Um, our facilitator, Associate Professor Peter Saxton, is the Burnett Foundation Aotearoa, uh, Research Fellow at the University of Auckland, uh, Faculty of Medical and Health Sciences. For over 20 years, Peter has led behavioural surveillance. on rainbow communities and gay and bisexual men to support efforts towards prevention and eliminating HIV transmission in Aotearoa. Kia[00:20:00] ora Joe, um, and as our panel settles I guess, um, I mean, mōrēnā tātou, um, gosh it's been a morning of reflections and I want to Many of the sentiments shared already this morning. So, you know, it hasn't been perfect by any means, but gosh, we've got a lot to be proud of, um, in Aotearoa's HIV response. Um, and [00:20:30] that's been built on, on early, evidence based, non judgmental, uh, bipartisan, in fact, multi party, multi partisan, um, action, um, conducted in partnership with communities. Um, and it occurs to me that MPs, but in particular policy makers, um, like those in the room have supported us, um, over many years, [00:21:00] um, have played a key role in that success. Um, listening to our communities, passing laws and effective policies that have enabled our key populations to access the services they need and keep themselves safe. And in doing so. Kept UA as one of a small number of countries who have kept, um, HIV incidents low. So we have a lot to be proud of and to reflect on. Uh, but now is an opportunity [00:21:30] again to hear from our communities. So I'm delighted, um, to have on stage, uh, our community panel, uh, Joe, Jane, mark, and Millie. Um, I'm going to first ask them to briefly introduce themselves, um, and tell us, um, who their key communities are that they serve. And then we'll have a, a rapid fire, um, series of insights, um, reflecting on, um, uh, what's happening, um, what we need, um, [00:22:00] and to all to achieve the goal of elimination by 2030. So first of all, um, some brief introductions and tell us about your organization, uh, perhaps starting with Millie. Kia ora. Uh, my name's Millie. I'm from Toitūtao, Te Poutahu o Toitūtao. And Sequoia. Nā mihi Mark Fisher, Body Positive. Um, we're a support organization for people living with HIV across New Zealand. Um, thanks for organizing this. [00:22:30] Uh, kia ora. I've spoken a lot this morning. Uh, so, yeah, Joe Rich, Chief Executive, Burnett Foundation. Um, our organization, um, predominantly, you know, since the 1980s, uh, served, uh, gay and bisexual men, uh, and people living with HIV. Recently we expanded our vision to be more, uh, about supporting our wider rainbow communities. Um, so particularly in the HIV response, uh, that includes, uh, anybody who identifies as rainbow or queer. Kia ora. [00:23:00] Kia ora. Um, my name is Jane Bruning. I'm the National Coordinator for Positive Women. Um, we basically support predominantly HIV, which also includes heterosexual men. Thank you. Kia ora, panel. Gosh, that was brief, so we're, we're, um, we're heading in the right direction. Um, um, so why do community led responses matter? As we've heard, we've seen nothing short of a revolution in HIV [00:23:30] prevention and care. over many decades but we're not there yet. So in the context of biomedical prevention, in the context of all the tools that we have, what is the role of community led responses in helping us get to zero? Perhaps Jane? Yeah, I guess there's nobody knows what living like with HIV is like except for those who are living with HIV. I think that's a really important factor. People have that inner understanding [00:24:00] and are able to then you. I think they're the most valuable people in helping to do the health prevention and we have a lot of services that, that include people living with HIV who can, um, really honor the community. But it's mostly about, you know, people, we know what it's like to live with HIV and so we know what we need and we know what needs to be done. Um, yeah, from Burniep Foundation's perspective, I [00:24:30] mean, community responses, uh, Every time I talk I get this weird feedback, but anyway. Um, yeah, it's, it's so important because we, as I've said this morning, we know best. Um, we, many of our staff are from the communities that are at high risk. You know, many, uh, gay and bisexual men. Uh, we have staff living with HIV as well. We can do things that, um, Government agencies can't do. We can talk to our communities in ways that they understand that push the [00:25:00] boundaries in terms of being six positive, uh, in understanding the values and motivations of our communities. Uh, and we, we can move quicker, um, than, than government agencies, uh, because we have that inherent knowledge, uh, about what works and what makes our communities tick. Um, so it's, it's the smart investment from my perspective, uh, we can move quicker and at lower cost. with all that. Um, basically we're very nimble. Um, as a community org, we, we speak [00:25:30] to people in a language that they understand and that they trust. Um, healthcare is amazing and they do a really good job, but sometimes there's a little bit of a power dynamic and people don't feel comfortable. And so peers can help kind of engage people safely with those spaces. And we talk about stuff that other people don't want to talk about. We go into sex on site venues. We have those conversations and we push the envelope. We, we, Because we're passionate about this, we go out and we bring in things like PrEP before it's authenticated. We push in pub vaccines that you're not [00:26:00] allowed to see in public. We do all those things that need to be done because they need to be done. And that's the, and we do it for cheap. Kia ora noa. It's really important that we have community based issues, especially for Maori. I mean, it's been mentioned again this morning. Um, and Māori, Māori speakers and, and, and definitely another Māori speaker after me will say, by Māori for Māori, e tātou, nothing about [00:26:30] us without us. It is really important that we lead our way in this, in this space as well. So, ngā tātou. Sorry, can I just add something? Um, I think it's also very important to recognise that we need to work with allies as well. We can't do all of this on our own. Um, we need allies, we need people working with us as well. Kia ora leaders. Um, so as we gaze down that road to elimination by [00:27:00] 2030, we have it in our sights. What are the key challenges for the communities that you serve in your organisations? Um, perhaps starting with Mark. Um, I think the challenge is there is a, Um, A really big focus on prevention, which is really important, um, our focus is on ensuring that all people living with HIV have the right to know their status. That's our big thing is to get people diagnosed and engaged into care and supported to stay in care. Um, the challenge is [00:27:30] that once you're diagnosed, that's not the end of the road. We don't leave you at that point. We support you on that journey to stay in care. And I think that's the key message from the action plan for us, is that all people living with HIV have good quality of life, free from stigma and discrimination. Um, HIV is the virus, stigma is the disease. So we need to deal with that. You know, if we're not actually reaching our communities, we're not going to [00:28:00] reach 2030 and non transferable, non transmissions, okay, so it's really important that, um, Māori be in the space to reach Māori in rural areas. You know, aligning also to our HIV action plan. Aligning to tikanga of Toitū tāo and tikanga of te ao Māori. So, thank you. Kia [00:28:30] ora. Um, Joe, the key challenges. Um, I would say, firstly, you know, look, thinking about the population that we most work with, uh, and represent, which is gay and bisexual men. We've seen, particularly over the last eight years, that infections have declined sharply, predominantly among Pākehā and people residing in the big cities like Wellington and Auckland. So the biggest challenge is going to be making sure that those gains are [00:29:00] realised by other parts of the gay and bisexual community, including Māori, including Pasifika, including migrant MSM. Um, and I think the other one is going to be maintaining Uh, and the investment and the focus. If we continue on this trajectory that we've been on since 2016, uh, you know, we're going to get, hopefully, to a point in the next few years where, where annual diagnoses are very small, um, but we have to remember we are dealing with an infectious disease that still has no vaccine or cure and those numbers are only [00:29:30] small because communities are mobilizing every single day and engaging in behavior that keeps those numbers low. I think it will be really tempting for decision makers to go, Oh, well look at that. It's not really a problem anymore. Let's focus on something that's a more issue, more urgent problem. But if we don't maintain that focus, it's just going to bounce right back. The key challenges from our perspective is, um, that it's not, um, heterosexual men and women are not recognised as [00:30:00] risk groups. And what that does is actually put them at risk. It's more than 50 percent of people, um, heterosexual people who are diagnosed with HIV are actually diagnosed with AIDS. And often have very, um, complicated, um, Um, illnesses that are not recoverable from, too. So, our challenge is to, um, you know, as much as we support, um, the rainbow community, it's also about fighting for the voices of women, fighting for the voices of heterosexual men. And that often has been a challenge [00:30:30] over the years. Often we're missed off, missed out, um, not, and totally forgotten. So, I think that's one of the key challenges for us is to make sure people, people understand that, uh, this also affects heterosexual community. Kia ora. Um, so as we've heard this morning, we, we have, uh, an HIV action plan, and I want to acknowledge, um, all the people, um, in this room and elsewhere who've contributed, um, to getting us to that [00:31:00] place. It is rare, um, and it is important that we make the most of that opportunity. So what would each organisation like to see prioritised, uh, in the next, um, One or two years, uh, to make sure that we stay on track to meet the 2030 goals. Perhaps starting with Joe this time. Kia ora, thank you. Um, from our perspective, these two things we'd love to see prioritised in terms of, uh, government implementation, um, Work to [00:31:30] decriminalize HIV transmission so, um, that it's treated, um, within a public health framework rather than a legal, uh, framework is super important, um, as community orgs we mobilized on that work, um, we're, we're putting together a pathway, um, but what we'd really like prioritized is government agencies, um, that work because it's going to have to require a cross sector, um, commitment, uh, and, and changing the way, um, that this is handled. Um, so that doesn't [00:32:00] necessarily need money. It just needs, uh, needs support. Uh, and the other one for us is prep provision in the community. You know, over the last, um, six years or so we've seen, uh, prep make a significant difference, uh, but it is still not accessible for everyone. Um, it still requires people to jump, uh, to jump through hoops, uh, in terms of engaging, um, with clinical care, uh, and talking about, uh, their sex life, uh, with people that they don't necessarily want to be talking about it with, um, we can be doing [00:32:30] a lot more to make it accessible in community settings, uh, and in pharmacies, uh, and that is going to require, uh, some investment, uh, and, and support. Kuna. Kuna. Jane, your priority is for the next one or two years. Thank you. Yeah, I guess our main, one of our main priorities is heaps will be here all day, but um, I guess the main one we're looking for is around consistent, um, and national standards around, um, women in pregnancy and testing. Um, you know, uh, [00:33:00] we did have a, a national screening project and that was actually stopped because there were not enough women being picked up in that. But it's kind of assumed that the health sector knows that a woman should have an HIV test in her first trimester. Um, trimester, and from 2007 until last year, this, this was working. Um, but unfortunately, um, in the last year, we've had a couple of babies born with HIV. And, you know, what, uh, part of the reason of that is because we take our eye off the ball. And also And these were people [00:33:30] not living in New Zealand, they came from overseas, um, but while they were here they had antenatal care and they were not tested, um, for HIV. So that, getting a national guidelines is what we would like. At the moment we've heard that the Midwifery Council are putting together guidelines and we've heard that Auckland Hospital's putting together guidelines, neither of these two are talking to each other, none of them have talked to people living with HIV. So we've got people making Guidelines about people living with [00:34:00] HIV and having pregnancy, um, and no positive people are in that community. So, and the other thing is just a national testing. I mean, we, we really feel that testing should be part of any diagnostic process. Um, when someone's coming in and they've got something and you, you take blood for this, that and the other, also take for HIV because it's, even if it's only eliminating it, it's eliminating it. Kia ora, Millie. Your priorities for the next two years. Kia ora. [00:34:30] Um, that's a big question, especially for Māori facing Māori. Um, in that space, you know, one of the biggest priorities is for our people. Right? Um, And so we need the resources to reach our people. We need the resources to get in there to re educate, to educate, not just our people, we need to educate across the board. Because the stigma and discrimination that, that lays [00:35:00] with us is not about living with HIV, it's about just being Māori. And so we have to dig deep in those spaces. So one of the priorities for us is to ensure that our people are reached on a mana enhancing level. That their mana is kept intact. And it's, if ours is intact, then everybody's is intact. You know, what's good for Maori is good for everybody. It's simple. [00:35:30] Thank you. Go to Milly. Mark, your priorities, you can only pick a few over the next two years. I've got three. Um, so one of the big things for us is U equals U. So it hasn't really been mentioned today. If you're undetectable, you can not pass on HIV to another partner. So that's the message we want everybody to know. We want everybody to know that message. So that's why we wear these t shirts. That's why we push this message continuously. It's a big impact on stigma and self stigma. So Everybody needs to [00:36:00] be aware of that. Stigma needs to be defeated. One of the things with U equals U is that it depends on treatment, so we want access to new treatments. Um, one of the big movements overseas is moving to long acting injectables. It takes away the daily reminder of a pill reminding you of HIV. So, it's a big push towards two monthly, six monthly injections. That's the future. We don't have a cure for HIV. We won't have a cure for a long time. This is one of the tools that can make it easier for people to stay engaged in care and on treatment and undetectable. which will [00:36:30] stop hormone transmission and they stay healthy. Um, the other focus is around, um, the quality of life. So it's not just about being undetectable. Undetectable's great. It's not the be all and end all, it's about having good quality of life. Um, in the action plan, the monitoring plan, we mentioned measuring quality of life. That's an important thing. How do we know we've achieved that goal? So that all people living with HIV have good quality of life and good health. That's the target. Um, we're gonna continue to have more people getting HIV as we go forward. There is no [00:37:00] cure. We need to work on ensuring that they have, we're free of stigma. And the other piece with that there's being able to, if they are experienced stigma or discrimination, if that's in healthcare and employment or other situations, um, how does that track? How's that recorded? How do we deal with it? How do we change it? If we're, if we're, if we want them to have good quality of life, we need to know what's going on. So we need better mechanisms of actually capturing that stigma and discriminations or can be dealt with. So, our final [00:37:30] question for the panel, um, if you had one key message or barrier or challenge you'd like, uh, decision makers, policy makers, um, in the audience today to walk away with, um, what would it be? Um, perhaps we start with Jane and then go along the panel. I think the key message is not, not to take the eyes off the ball because it's very easy like we've seen in Fiji. If you're not focusing on it, it can just [00:38:00] get out of hand. And just because we've seen some of the numbers going down, it doesn't mean that it won't go up again. So we, and it doesn't mean don't fund it. We need to still keep funding. We still need to keep fighting the fight. And even if we get to zero, we still need to fight that fight to keep it at zero. Thank you. Keep the foot on the gas, um, and I, I would add, we need to fund, uh, access to testing and prevention for temporary migrants. Um, we're not going to [00:38:30] get to 2030, um, if we don't get there for everyone. I'd agree with all that. Basically we can't leave anybody behind. Um, we need to provide testing, we need to provide care. And, um, Ensure that we don't, as we try to get to 2030, we have five years to eliminate transmission, like, that's the goal. We don't have a lot of time. Now's the time to reinvest and to recommit to the action plan. It has all the steps that we need to get there. We can't stop at this point.[00:39:00] As I agree with some of my panellists, and of course, the other organisations in the sector, but for me, it's about honouring the HIV Action Plan and honouring the Te It's time to start honouring the people, so ngā mihi kia tātou, Kia ora panel, um, I couldn't agree more with everything that's being said, and [00:39:30] I think one of the key challenges that's echoed across the speakers is, as we get nearer to zero, it's going to be so important, um, to visibilise, to make, to appreciate all the hard work that's getting us to that place. And is going to be required to keep it there as well. So, um, please a big round of applause to our very focused and hardworking, uh, community leaders.[00:40:00] Got it. Thank you, Peter, and to my fellow panelists. Uh, Peter, you did something I have not been able to achieve this morning, which is keep us on time. Um, So, uh, next, uh, the next, uh, last but not least item on our agenda, um, is, uh, members of the community sharing their lived experience, uh, of living with HIV. Um, I'd like to introduce [00:40:30] Marama Mullin Tamati and Kit Harding. Marama, who's lived with HIV since 1993, founded ENA in 2003, and has worked nationally and globally with Maori, indigenous peoples. and HIV for over 30 years. She's held significant leadership roles, including chair of the International Indigenous Working Group on HIV, the International Indigenous HIV and AIDS Community, and the International Community of Women Living with HIV and [00:41:00] AIDS. Her achievements include of receiving the International Red Ribbon Award in 2016, and the Queen's Order of Merit in 2017 for her services to people living with HIV. Mardama played a pivotal role in influencing International recognition of indigenous peoples as a vulnerable key population, securing a permanent seat at the table for Indigenous Voices, a career defining achievement. She's also served as co chair of the [00:41:30] United Nations General Assembly on HIV in 2016 and was a community board member for the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria. Alongside her advocacy, she is a mother, author, and activist. Joining Marama is Kit Harding. Kit has been living with HIV since 2018. As a gay man, he was aware of HIV and he knew that a diagnosis wasn't going to be a death sentence, but he still thought he would be sick for the [00:42:00] rest of his life. Post diagnosis, Kit is living a happy and productive life, having met and bought a house with his long term partner Luke, something that, in the weeks after his diagnosis, seemed like an impossibility. He now works as the Positive Speakers Bureau Coordinator, coordinating a group of HIV positive people to share their stories of living with HIV and educating the wider community on what it means to be HIV positive today. Please [00:42:30] welcome Marama and Kit.[00:43:00] Um, I had a plan, um, but too many people have been talking about me, so I'm not gonna have that plan, . But I do want to say, and I want to welcome you, um. Because it's, it's, to me, um, this is my home kind of, this is where I'm from. I'm Ngati Awa Ki Kapiti, um, Te Atiawa Taranaki whanau. This is my home. And I welcome all of yous who are not from here to our whenua. Um, we were here two weeks ago [00:43:30] for a different kaupapa. Um, my children are in the room. We're outside here with placards. Um, I was here. having a lovely meeting with my infectious disease specialist, Dr. Graeme Mills. So, I was on a kaupapa of HIV, my whanau were on another kaupapa, Toitu Te Tiriti. Engari, that was the founding document for the mahi that um, I've been able to do over [00:44:00] the years. Moving on, I have always viewed World AIDS Day. As a time to reflect and remember those who have passed. Um, and I always, I like to, my daughter is in the room, she's standing over there with number 27 on. Um, I like to acknowledge her brother and sister who both passed away with AIDS in Papua New Guinea. Um, I stand here and I'm shaking because it's [00:44:30] been a year since a very close friend of mine passed away with AIDS in Aotearoa. What is going on? Māori are still dying of AIDS. I'm just going to put that out there as a key issue. Um, for me. And it still breaks my heart. And I'll tell you what I think it is. It's the psychosocial part of being, living with HIV. It's the [00:45:00] psychology, the mental health, the support. The fact that Māori come from, um, Traumatic generational trauma. And we're still trying to regain what we've lost as far as our language, our lands. And then add a foreign illness into it, and I'm out. Now, my great grandfather's buried not far from here. He died in the Spanish Flu at the age of 26. He'd already had five [00:45:30] children. I come from his youngest daughter, the Portiki. Um, she was my grandmother. So I have a lot of half for realizing that epidemics come and they go. In 2020, when COVID came along, um, I found out that I was very, very sick. So I'm going to be putting my [00:46:00] key issues and what was discussed on the panel, I'm going to put what I think we should be looking at. I roto te ao of people living with HIV is we're getting old, we're getting co morbidities. I stand here, I have hypertension, I have diabetes, I have, what else, I want to go through what pills I take. A lot. My doctor's in the room actually. I'd like to acknowledge Dr Nigel [00:46:30] Raymond over here, he probably knows more about what I'm on. So, As far as medications, but I'm on a lot and I've also in 2020 I had a stroke And I lost 25 percent of my brain So I'm walking around with a dead zone in my head and if anyone's a Stephen King fan The book The Dead Zone is what I'm talking about I'm a little bit witty witty, but anyway Where was I? So I was also [00:47:00] operated on and they found a large, very large sarcoma that was taken from me. It's my kotero. Yep, um, Over the whole period of lockdown and COVID, my concern wasn't so much for me, it was for other people living with HIV while another epidemic is raging through our land. Thank you. Every time I got [00:47:30] COVID, I got three times, I ended up in hospital. I don't know what it's happening with people living with HIV, 30 years plus, if they're having the same situation or not, I don't know. But for me, as a member of the community, I was totally taken out. Last year, um, it's I, this is, I'm going to laugh about this and you'll probably think it's crazy, but you know, getting HIV was a very rare thing for women in the 90s, but it happened. [00:48:00] Now I have a very rare form of cancer, which is a coma. And I'm thinking, you know, all the meetings I went to overseas, all the meetings and all the infectious disease specialists, all the researchers, All the clinicians that I met, they always talked about what could happen to us as far as comorbidities, what we have to watch out for. Well, I'm walking proof that it's happened. Um, I have stage 4 [00:48:30] cancer, and it's rare. Hello, what the hell, did I just get the wrong lottery? But in saying that, it's something to think of, because we were all guinea pigs when we started medication. All of us. We didn't know what was going to happen. I didn't think I was going to make it to 54 years old on 14th month, Christmas Eve. And I'm like, I wasn't supposed to make past 30. What do you [00:49:00] do? There's no research. There's no understanding of what happens for people living with HIV who start getting sick. And I'd like to acknowledge you, David, um, David Miller, just to skip back, back to the old days. Um, it was the national government, the last time they were here in government, and they were, had a coalition with Te Māori Pāti, Te Pāti Māori, is that the right way? [00:49:30] Um, I was able to successfully advocate through Whaea Tariana and through Nikki Kaye. And that's why I clapped a lot when she was, her name was mentioned earlier. Because they were champions for us. And they understood that communities, with people living with HIV, need to be funded. Jane, and Positive Woman, and even you, Catherine. It's so nice to see you, Catherine. And Cindy Fages. And, and I am [00:50:00] so proud. We're, we're, we're smart. Sorry, I'm so proud to see your t shirt. I'm so proud to see that, you know, you guys are still working so hard. It is a hard job, but we have to get in the realities of it. We're getting older, we're getting sick. How are we going to protect our mokopuna? How are we going to protect our whakapapa? Um, we had the report done and, I actually thought the Cordial, [00:50:30] Cordial today was going to be around the report, but I'm glad to hear it wasn't. But it is something that I truly believe in is that the communities, even at a global level, um, I would attend global fund meetings and being a room full of scientists, epidemiologists, clinicians, you name it. And they wouldn't grasp the importance of that. of communities within the world or realm of HIV AIDS and how important [00:51:00] it was. And I would stand there and argue and argue and argue until they finally understood. And these are people, I was in Thailand at the time, and these are people now who have changed their views. There are people out there that are changing their views because of community groups, because of Aotearoa. And everything that we stand for, every human meeting I ever attended, we were, people talk about us like we were the greatest thing, and we are, but why [00:51:30] are Māori still dying of AIDS? I have to look at it through that lens. I look at it through that lens because I'm, I don't know how many generations, I'm probably about six or seven generation of activism in my whānau. Right at pre treaty signing. Back to 1880, and our family constantly being activists. Every march that went on in the 70s and 80s, I was there. [00:52:00] Because my parents were. And I understand it's their activism and what's happened that has created these communities. We have communities because of activism. We have communities because people put their head out the door and on the line. to bring it up. I was hoping the ministers would still be here, so I'm a little bit hoar, because I'll still go and say it to their face anyway, but they cannot stop anything with you [00:52:30] guys as a community. There's four community groups are here. We are so lucky to have them. So many of the countries I've been to, we're lucky to have one. I'm ready to sit down and talk now. And my daughter's being my nurse at the moment. Um, but I'm very proud of her. I'm not going to sing because I'm losing my voice. And um, I'd like to acknowledge [00:53:00] Millie. I'm only here because Millie asked me to be here. And Millie represented us at the Indigenous Pre Conference, the AIDS conference in Germany, in Munich. And I was so proud of that day, because this kaupapa, you cannot get, um, you have to take breaks from it. It, it's a, you need to have that, um, what do they call them? Ngaire used to tell me all the time, [00:53:30] succession plan. We need to have those succession plans. And I, it's just brilliant that someone came forward as strong as I am. And it's, it's out there and not afraid. So, tēnē te mihi nui ki a koe, ki tō mahi, ki tō awhinatanga, inga wā katoa. Uh, well, I'm also taking a toast, but I'm not. But yeah, why don't we raise our glasses, huh? [00:54:00] Yeah, yeah, Rightio, I'm suddenly nervous, but it's okay. Um, so I'm lucky last, which is standing between you and the rest of your day. Um, but I'd first of all like to thank everyone who organized today and for giving, offering me the privilege to share a bit about my story of living with HIV. [00:54:30] Um, I'm going to share with you a sort of brief overview of those first weeks and months after my diagnosis in 2018. Um, it'd be pretty safe to say that that was probably the worst, or definitely the worst weeks of my entire life. Um, my rational brain knew that I would be, um, you know, I'd be healthy, I'd live a full and healthy life. But the trauma of that diagnosis was deep seated and, um, really took, uh, deep effect on my self worth, [00:55:00] um, and how I viewed myself. I felt dirty, I felt ashamed, and I felt worthless that I put myself in a position of acquiring HIV. In my mind, I thought I would never have an intimate relationship again. I'd never find a partner who would accept me. I would never be able to have sex again, um, and that is what I deserved. That's how I felt in those first few weeks after diagnosis. Um, for the next two years, I took my medication and thankfully achieved an undetectable viral load within the first three months. [00:55:30] Um, Um, and every medical professional I spoke to said that I was going to be fine and just to get on with my life. So I decided to ignore those, um, feelings of trauma that I'd experienced and just push through. Um, and we all know how men in New Zealand do when they do those things. Um, so after a bit of a two year period, uh, where I worked and worked and worked, um, I, I hit a wall, I, um, had a mental health breakdown in my life and I couldn't, I couldn't [00:56:00] function. Um, And I was forced to deal with that trauma of my diagnosis, forced to deal with the trauma of what put me there in that situation in the first place. Um, I found support through my employer and ultimately through the wider HIV community. Um, I, I live in Nelson, um, which is, you know, a smaller provincial town, and I found it really quite hard to access the, um, or find a connection to the HIV community. And thankfully in 2022, I was [00:56:30] Uh, working for Nelson Bayes Primary Health and I came across the lovely Jane at an event and she has been my link into, um, the HIV community and I'm extremely grateful to Jane and also for being a great boss at the PSB. So thank you Jane. Ha ha. Um, so I guess the message that I want to deliver, or the summary of what I want to deliver today is don't underestimate the impact of an HIV diagnosis. Yes, we all understand that medication is hugely effective and has meant that [00:57:00] people can live full and happy lives. But the trauma and the self stigma that HIV diagnosis can set off or enhance is all too real. Um, and yeah, that's me, so thank you very much. And yeah, thanks. Kia ora, uh, thank you so much Marama, uh, and Kit, uh, for sharing your [00:57:30] personal experiences. It is people living with and affected by HIV that is the reason that we're all here today. Uh, and so I really value, and I'm sure everyone does, um, hearing, um, hearing from you. So, I want to thank all of you as well for your participation this morning. Um, I've really enjoyed the conversations. I'm sure you have too. I hope you come away today, uh, with a renewed commitment, uh, and focus. Uh, particularly towards those 20, 30 [00:58:00] goals in the action plan. Uh, no new transmissions. Uh, and people living with HIV, uh, living healthy lives free from stigma and discrimination. I also want to thank all of our speakers, um, and the politicians who are no longer with us, um, but really appreciated their time. I know it's, apparently it's scrutiny week, uh, which is a very busy week in Parliament. Um, and I also want to thank, uh, those that organized today, uh, particular mention to Brooke. Where's Brooke? [00:58:30] Uh, Brooke put a lot of hard work into this, uh, and has organised nearly every aspect, uh, and also, uh, our partner HIV organisations. I particularly want to acknowledge Mark, whose idea this was, uh, many years ago. It took us a long time, uh, to actually get there. Um, but, um, it feels like now is the right time. Uh, so thank you all. Uh, I, and I was at this point, uh, going to hand over, uh, Uh, to [00:59:00] Nate, uh, to close us with the Kaia, but, uh, Nate is long gone, so, uh, I'm going to do that.

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TITLE: Inaugural World AIDS Day Parliamentary Breakfast - Part 1
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VOICES: Amohia Boulton; Ayesha Verrall; Clive Aspin; Joe Rich; Matt Doocey; Nate Rowe
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; 2020s; Amohia Boulton; Aotearoa New Zealand; Ayesha Verrall; Banquet Hall; Burnett Foundation Aotearoa; Clive Aspin; HIV / AIDS; HIV Action plan (2022-2032); HIV education; HIV stigma; HIV testing and prevention; HIV testing data; Joe Rich; Matt Doocey; Member of Parliament; Nate Rowe; Parliament buildings; Wellington
DATE: 3 December 2024
YEAR: 2024
LOCATION: Banquet Hall, Parliament buildings
CONTEXT: Audio from the Inaugural World AIDS Day Parliamentary Breakfast, held on 3 December 2024 in Wellington. The recording has been split into two parts - part two can be heard here. Thanks to all of the participants at the event for allowing their speeches and kōrero to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: December 2024
TEXT: [00:01:00] I te ao i te pō, I te ao i te pō, Hau, hau, hau a whio whio, Hau, hau, hau mā takataka, Hau, hau, no te awa o te ora o te atiawa Taranaki wānui. Hau, hau, ki te wanganui a tara e hae. Tai kuku me mai takiwai a mauri e runga ki a horowau e mauri e raro po Ikaroa. E raro tapu wainuku, e raro tapu wairangi, e whai nui atu te moe nga [00:01:30] kopai a te Ikaroa o te Kahui Maui. Ko rangitukutuku te aho, ko piki mai rawe a te Amatau, e whiua e Maui Potiki, ka mau te mahi a Pona Turima. Kaipare rau a Ikaroa ki Rawiti a Amatau hi Raurau, ko ha haa te whenua, te Ikaroa wai, Ki hae kau eke te maru o tuk te hiku te mana, huti kukume ake, ka pakaru mai a tangaroa, ka hora te kai a tamanu i te raa, he kai [00:02:00] a tawhiri matea. Koe nei te waa o te hangatanga o te kahui maunga. Koe matua te mana, matua te toa, matua te tapu, te pononga, koranga kahui maunga. I piki ai ki te upoko o te ika, ki tera wai manga, te whakapuware te waha o te ika. Whakapakarukarupuare te waha o te ika, ka kau mai kupeka ki kua kake Nō reira, e mura te aroha o Te Atiawa. He uria te [00:02:30] kahui maunga, te kahui maui, ki Tuarangi te whakaeke mai. E rongo ma tānea, whakairihia ke ki runga turuturu o Whitiwhakamaua, kia tīna, tīna, hui e, tāi ki e. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Um, if you're wondering who I am, my name is Nate. Uh, I'm very humbled to come on behalf of the local iwi, Te Atiawa, Taranaki Wanui. very much. And also on behalf of the Parliamentary Service and Office of the Clerk to open this wondrous occasion today to celebrate [00:03:00] heroes of the past and heroes of the now here in the room today. Nō reira mai tērā tohu o te kahu o te raukura, tēnei ka mihi aroha kē kia koutou e kauea mai nei. Um, for your whakatau and opening this morning, I want to speak both in English and te reo Māori. Um, our leader, oh I better not call him a kaumātua, our rangatira of our parliament here, uh, Kura Moeahu and also of our iwi, uh, he says when it comes to whakatau, it's [00:03:30] about connection for people. Thank you. And so we respect and understand that there are many cultures and many languages here in the room today. I share with you both English and Māori today so we can connect with each other here in the room in our kaupapa. I started there with two karakia because I was supposed to close later on but I've got to shoot off to Tākina and do another kaupapa. So I'll give you, I'll give you three karakia. I'll do one at the end of my speech today. [00:04:00] The first one I spoke about actually is what connects us here in the room also. It talks about something that our beautiful capital city is known for, and some of you might have heard me share this kōrero with you before. It's part of a narrative that's, uh, called Te Ara Tupua, like our whanaunga back in Whanganui, which is Te Awa Tupua, and back in Taranaki, which is Te Kawhi Maunga. And so, what my karakia talks about is the beautiful southerly winds of Wellington that welcome you here today. Those [00:04:30] winds that we all breathe in and that we share here today. Te Hau o Te Tonga. But also in that karakia, it talks about something else. It goes, there's a line that goes, Ka tutu aniwaniwanga, au oro ki wahu i te haupi and so on. And what that says is, out comes the rainbow. The clouds clear, the sun comes out, the winds die down, and you can't beat Wellington on a good day either, whānau. And every time I've done that karakia, the sun comes out. So, wow, actually 80 percent [00:05:00] strike. But we welcome you here to Te Hau o Te Tonga, Te Whanganui a Tara. The second karakia I shared with you talks about something else. Uh, the phenomenal works of the Māui brothers. And I know Moana 2's out at the moment, but I was sharing this kōrero before Disney got around to it. But, uh, But anyway, Maui and his brothers went out on a fishing expedition. And this kōrero relates to this whenua here, where the heart of our democracy stands. [00:05:30] And so Maui threw his hook, Pikimairawea, out into Te Moananui a Kiwa, the Great Pacific Ocean, and he heaved out a great big fish known as Te Ikaroa o te Kawi Maui, and more commonly known today as the North Island. The North Island is in the shape of a stingray. And where we stand today, here in Wellington It is called Te te Kahui Maui, the head of the fish, where the intelligent people live today, whānau, here in our city. [00:06:00] And so, when Maui and his brothers heaved this great big fish up, the brothers couldn't wait for their catch, and they started to cut it up. And this is a metaphorical way to say of land formation and seismic activity that was happening when these lands were coming out of the depths of the ocean. And as you go to the central plateau, you will find Te Kahui Maunga, the mountain clan. Ruapehu, Tongarero, Ngaruahoe, Pihanga, and Taranaki also used to reside there in [00:06:30] those times too. And so there was a huge eruption from Taupo Tianui, or Taupo Lake, and it shifted the whole landscape. And this is during the time of Mau and his brothers. Taranaki went to the west, although Tuwharetoa will tell you punched him over to the west. And over there he stands today. And so during this time it was very chaotic. Earthquakes, huge winds, volcanoes erupting. In Taranaki we say that Ranginui sent the ancient [00:07:00] people called Te Hunga o Te Kahui Maunga who came to the sides of Taranaki Maunga and then came here to Wellington, to Pukeatua, more commonly known as Wainui o Matahil. And he summoned, they summoned two tupua, Ngake and Whataitai. And it was Ngake that opened the channel of the harbour that we know today, as it used to be a freshwater lake in those times. Whataitai took the western side of the harbour, and became petrified, and is known as Mirama, or Mirama [00:07:30] these days. Uh, as, the old name of that peninsula is Whataitai, and is in the shape of a manu, or a manu muramura if you ever look at it. The reason why I share this kōrero with you is one, it's the surroundings that you are here today, but also we call it te ara tupua, which means the phenomenal pathways, unexplainable phenomenons. And like you in the room today, you are that phenomenon making impact and change [00:08:00] just like the ancient times, back to the times of Te Kahu i Maui. And so, on behalf of our iwi, and also on Parliamentary Service and Office of the Class, I say, Tēnei ka mihi atu kia koutou, i o koutou pukumahi, hei hāpai te oranga tonu tanga o tātou katoa. For upholding the sustenance and well being of our people and our communities. Thank you. So, no reira, mai era whakaaro pai, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, haramai, [00:08:30] haramai. Now, it's customary for us to do a waiata, and as you can see, I don't have one of my aunties here with me today, but I've got two great people in the room. And I'm sure you'll know this famous waiata by Papa Morvan Simon or Tiana Tipa Simon, Te Aroha. And you'll probably go, oh, Te Aroha again, and you're like, well, do you know the second verse though? And there's a third verse, so, we'll learn that another time. So if I could ask you to etu, or to stand up, and we'll sing that famous waiata. Uh, would anyone like to start [00:09:00] us off? Because every time I do, I go way up in the rafters and we're screaming. I'll take it. I'll start later then. Te aroha, te whakapono, me te rangimari, e tatou tatou e. But I'm going to try [00:09:30] something different. We'll try the second verse. It's really easy. It goes like this. Me honoa. Your turn. Me honoa ki te atua, ki te atua, ka Ka puta ka ora e tatou tatou e, tatou tatou e. Kia ora whanau. Kapai, [00:10:00] you had some harmonies going on. We could go to Matatini in March, I'm sure. But again, e te iwi, thank you very much. As the song says, from love, faith, and peace to all. Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou. Kia ora tātou katoa. Ngā mihi. E ngā mana, e ngā waka, e ngā reo, e rau rangatira mā. Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā tātou katoa. Ko Joe Rich tako ingoa. Ko He Him [00:10:30] taku tukapi. Ko taku mahi ki Burnett Foundation Aotearoa. Ko te tumu whakarai. Uh, good morning. Uh, warm greetings to you all. I'm Joe Rich. I'm the Chief executive at Burnett Foundation, alwa, uh, and it's my pleasure On behalf of the HIV community organizations, Burnett Foundation, body Positive, positive woman, and toy too, to our, uh, to welcome you to our very first, uh, world Age Day [00:11:00] Parliamentary breakfast. Uh, as Nate has already, um, blessed the food, which should be coming around, uh, at some point, uh, right now, um, you're welcome to graze throughout the speeches, um, there's no specific eating time. Uh, we're here for an important reason, uh, which is to acknowledge, uh, and strengthen the ongoing multi partisan support for New Zealand's HIV response. It's vital that this support remains firmly on the agenda for both our [00:11:30] elected representatives. and our health agencies. Uh, and I want to acknowledge, uh, this morning, uh, Aisha Veral, uh, former Minister of Health who launched the HIV Action Plan, which I'm sure will come up today, uh, and also Minister Matt Ducey, uh, who strengthened the government's commitment to the Action Plan at the Big Gay Out, uh, earlier this year. Uh, together in partnership, communities and government, uh, we can refocus our attention on achieving the national goals. Eliminating [00:12:00] new HIV transmissions and ensuring people living, living with HIV can live healthy lives free from stigma and discrimination. Today's event coincides with World AIDS Day which was on Sunday the 1st of December. It's been observed globally since 1988 and it's a time to reflect on the impact of HIV, honour those that we've lost over the years, uh, and reaffirm our commitment to ending HIV as a public health threat. It's also an opportunity to celebrate our [00:12:30] progress, challenge stigma, and advocate for the rights of people living with and affected by HIV. This year's theme for World AIDS Day, Take the Rights Path, reminds us that the world can end AIDS as a public health threat by 2030, but only if human rights are placed at the centre and only if communities are in the lead. The theme also challenges us to ensure that our efforts reach everyone, leaving no gaps in the realisation of these [00:13:00] rights. Achieving this vision requires more than just ambition. It demands action, equity, and collaboration. Here in Aotearoa, we've set our sights even higher, as we like to do. Our vision goes beyond ending AIDS as a public health threat. By 2030, we aim to eliminate local HIV transmissions entirely, and ensure all people living with HIV are treated equally. live healthy lives free from stigma and discrimination. And we're in a really strong position to achieve this. [00:13:30] Compared to many countries, we already have a low prevalence of HIV. We have well established and world leading harm reduction programs, like the needle exchange program. And we have publicly funded access to HIV treatments and prevention tools. But having this strong foundation is not enough. The final stretch will be the most challenging as we head to 2030. Success depends on strengthening the capability of the community led [00:14:00] response, health promotion, services and outreach. Communities have always been at the forefront of the HIV response and by empowering and resourcing us, we can turn this vision into reality. Community led approaches are essential not only for achieving the best whanau, but also for being highly cost effective. Recent analysis has shown that since reversing the trends in HIV numbers since 2016, the reduction has [00:14:30] saved society and the health system 175 million. Now it's not all about numbers, obviously human rights come first, um, but it's fair to say that that significant result would not have been achieved without the communities and the community organisations that drove that change. So together we have a unique opportunity to be world leading in the HIV response and to actually eliminate HIV transmission. Let's seize this opportunity and make it happen. [00:15:00] Huri nōa, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa. So it's now my pleasure to introduce our host this morning, Minister Matt Doocy is the Minister for Mental Health, Minister for ACC, Minister for Tourism and Hospitality, Minister for Youth, Associate Minister of Health, which includes Rainbow Health, uh, and Associate Minister of [00:15:30] Transport. Matt has been an MP for Waimakariri since 2014. He's previously worked in mental health in both New Zealand and the UK, before returning home to work at the Canterbury District Health Board. Hey, um, thanks Joe for that introduction, and also I know it's a significant time for you, and I'll, uh, acknowledge that at the end of my [00:16:00] Uh, Atamarie, Marina, good morning everyone. Lovely to see you all here this morning. Uh, as Joe said, make sure you carry on, uh, eating your breakfast. I must say, when I saw the agenda for this morning, It's not just all about a free breakfast, is it? They've got you actually working very hard. It's action packed. So keep your sustenance up. Could I acknowledge, uh, Nate and Mana Whenua for, [00:16:30] uh, the mihi and, uh, karakia and a very warm welcome. Uh, and also also the honorable Dr. Aisha Al, uh, to acknowledge Aesa and the former, uh, labor government for the very important work, uh, with the HIV community and also my parliamentary colleagues when I look round the room. Uh, fair to say, uh, all political par uh, parties in the 54th Parliament are represented here [00:17:00] today, and I think that is important. As Joe said, that you, we do have that bipartisan approach. So thank you for inviting me here to mark World AIDS Day. It is a real pleasure to be part of this inaugural event. I'd like to start by acknowledging the amazing work done by the Burnett Foundation Aotearoa and many others of you in this room to support those living with HIV and AIDS. Not only from a clinical point of But [00:17:30] also the impressive work done to reduce the stigma that still exists around the virus. Science has made incredible strides over recent years, meaning people living with HIV now have good clinical outcomes and live long and healthy lives if linked into care. Since the 80s, New Zealand has taken bold steps to reduce the transmission of HIV. We were one of the first countries to introduce the needle exchange programme in [00:18:00] Sex work was decriminalised in 2003 and the decriminalisation of sex between men in 1986. But that does not mean that HIV and AIDS does not still require attention. We've seen a sustained reduction in the number of AIDS diagnosis and AIDS deaths. This is a fantastic achievement that is the result of the incredible dedication of many people and organisations such as the Burnett Foundation [00:18:30] Aotearoa. Positive Woman, Body Positive, Toi Tū Te Ao, the New Zealand Sex Workers Collective, and needle exchange services across the country. Their efforts have been instrumental in a 56 percent reduction in the number of people being, uh, people diagnosed with HIV that was locally acquired in New Zealand since 2016. By making testing more accessible and providing information and support, [00:19:00] to the at risk communities that have made a significant contribution to society and the demands on the healthcare system. But there is always more to be done, which is why the government remains committed to the HIV Action Plan published this year, with the core goal of eliminating HIV transmission by 2030, as well as ensuring that all people living with HIV have healthy lives, free from stigma and discrimination. [00:19:30] I want to be clear, I've made my expectations clear to Health New Zealand that the allocated 18 million over four years from Budget 2022 will not be reprioritised as part of Health New Zealand's cost saving programme. I'm pleased to have assurance that the important work, I'm pleased to have assurance that the important work to improve [00:20:00] HIV testing and contract tracing will progress. To ensure that we are making progress on the actions and the National HIV Action Plan, the Ministry of Health has recently published the HIV Monitoring Plan. The Monitoring Plan sets out 52 indicators that will be used to monitor our progress towards achieving the goals and targets of the HIV Action Plan. The first monitoring report is expected to be published mid [00:20:30] next year. Initial implementation of the HIV Action Plan has focused on funding community based HIV service providers, including a new Kaupapa Māori HIV service, to scale up innovative testing for HIV and other sexually transmitted infections, and provide more workforce training to conduct testing. These providers have delivered approximately 4, 000 HIV tests in the six months from January to June [00:21:00] of this year. They've also been able to operate weekly nurse led clinics, testing at sex on site venues, university clinics, outreach services, and promote testing via a range of digital platforms. Work is ongoing to connect haura māori providers, refugee, migrant, and asylum seeker groups, needle exchange services, and sex workers to support these communities to be able to deliver future HIV testing. [00:21:30] Workforce training has also been provided to community-based organizations and the delivery of HIV and STI testing. This innovative testing is resulting in more Maori, Pacifica and Asian people getting tested. Around 50% of those tested had not been tested in the previous 12 months. Because of our firm commitment to the HIV action plan, community-based providers have been able to deliver the following initiatives, for example. In the [00:22:00] main centres there's been new engagement with African communities that better enables family groups to receive relevant information about support, treatment and prevention of HIV. There's been training for refugee migrant communities and point of care testing alongside wider information about sexual health and prevention services. There've been new bespoke translated resources for sex workers from non English speaking high prevalence countries To ensure they are aware of [00:22:30] the risks of STI and HIV, and know what to do if they have been exposed. As part of the implementation of the HIV Action Plan, Health New Zealand is also looking at ways of building the capability and capacity of the sexual health workforce, to reduce the spread of transmission of HIV and STIs, increase access, and maintain a focus on equity. Decreasing stigma and discrimination experienced by [00:23:00] people living with HIV in healthcare settings, as well as from society as a whole, is another key focus in the action plan. Health New Zealand is making progress on the development of an anti stigma and discrimination campaign informed by a working group involving people with lived experience of HIV. The Hauora Māori Services Group in Health New Zealand is supporting Māori health organisations to deliver community led social marketing to Māori [00:23:30] to increase the uptake of HIV combination prevention. Health New Zealand recently appointed a clinical advisor to provide specialist clinical advice and leadership to support sexually transmitted and blood borne infections and other sexual health work. The response to HIV in New Zealand has long been based on a health promotion approach and programs targeting specific communities. And that could simply not have been done without the amazing [00:24:00] work from the Burnett Foundation and everyone in this room. And I'd like to say personally a big thank you. There is a phenomenal amount of work done in this area and across the sexual health sector as a whole. We are very fortunate to have incredibly skilled, knowledgeable, and committed people working in this area, many of whom are here today. I'd like to take the opportunity to acknowledge the leadership and commitment from Jo Rich to sexual health [00:24:30] and rights for gay and bisexual men. As a retiring CEO of the Burnett Foundation, Jo's work over the past 13 years Hard to believe when he only looks about 18 at the moment. And the ongoing work of the foundation has made a significant contribution to the elimination of AIDS in New Zealand. This includes developing key strategic relationships with other agencies, health, government, and community sectors. Raising awareness of [00:25:00] sexually transmitted infections and promoting effective care. Preventative behavior supporting the covert and inbox response and leading the rebrand of New Zealand AIDS Foundation to Burnett Foundation and widening the scope of the new strategic plan to support rainbow and Takata Pui communities. This change honors the co founder of Bruce Burnett while addressing the over evolving needs of the community served your efforts [00:25:30] combined with commitment to improving the health. of all New Zealanders are appreciated. I'd also like to take this time to acknowledge my good friend and colleague Nikki Kaye, who we unfortunately lost to cancer recently. As many in the room will know, Nikki was an absolute champion of the needs of our rainbow community. She was a proud supporter and an ally of the rainbow community. [00:26:00] Uh, someone who leaves a powerful legacy An absolute, uh, role model of reaching across the political divide, uh, and supporting a bipartisan approach. Again, I thank you for inviting me here today to be part of this special event. I hope the rest of the morning goes well. Ngā mihi, kia ora koutou, tēnā koutou, kia ora. Ngā[00:26:30] mihi, uh, thank you, Minister Doocy, and, uh, thank you on behalf of my community for the government's support. Uh, commitments, um, particularly in this tough economic environment. Um, it's now my pleasure, uh, to introduce, uh, the Honourable Dr. Ayesha Vero. Uh, Ayesha is the Labour spokesperson on health, uh, former infectious diseases clinician, uh, and former Minister of Health, uh, who was involved in, [00:27:00] uh, championing the HIV Action Plan, uh, which was launched just last year. Tēnā koutou katoa Um, and thank you for that warm introduction and it's such a pleasure to be here. Have you ever had that lovely feeling where you're at a family event or a wedding and you see all the different people from different parts of your life together in one [00:27:30] room and it's amazing. It's, um, both, uh, lovely, heartwarming, uh, and a little bit surprising, slightly unsettling. And that's the feeling I'm having right now. So, I espied, uh, Sarah Howam, right from my university days, when we were both involved in progressive, um, causes. Now at the Drug Foundation, of course, playing an important part in HIV prevention. Peter Saxton from the AIDS Epidemiology, uh, group. Who, um, uh, I, I did, um, [00:28:00] summer research with and got in, that was my first step into infectious diseases and, um, met Peter there. Is your colleague Sue here today, Peter? Um, Sue and I did contact tracing and, uh, tuberculosis in Indonesia together. Um, my, uh, former, um, Bosses from the infectious diseases world, both Paul Huggin, where we work together in Singapore, and Nigel Raymond from, uh, Wellington Hospital. Uh, many of you are familiar from the, uh, patient, uh, organizations like Body, [00:28:30] Body Positive that, uh, I first had contact with in, in those, uh, roles as well. Uh, so good morning to you, to you all. Um, I also want to, uh, acknowledge all my parliamentary colleagues. It's great to get together, uh, from, with colleagues from all sides of the House to, uh, support a cause that we can all really get behind. And um, uh, coming to the most recent part of my work in, um, Parliament, that brings me to you, Joe, and the work [00:29:00] we did together, um, while, uh, over the last, um, Uh, in the last term of government. A fair amount about the AIDS, um, uh, action, HIV action plan. But also, um, we had to respond to a monkey pox outbreak. Uh, where I wasn't allowed to say the name of the vaccine in public. Or even say that it existed. And you and I worked really closely on that to make sure that the response to. Uh, response to that, uh, public health crisis for MSM was, um, [00:29:30] appropriate to, uh, to the community's needs. I really want to acknowledge the long contribution you have made to, uh, HIV and other, um, health needs of, um, uh, of the queer community. And thank you very much for your work and wish you all the best for the, for the future. Minister, thank you for your, um, earlier remarks and for your commitment to this plan. That's wonderful news for HIV [00:30:00] in, in New Zealand. Uh, HIV is a disease that we can, um, uh, eliminate the public health impact of it and address the stigma that impacts people with it. Uh, but it takes leadership and it takes time and it takes resources. And through your commitment, you have ensured that that is an opportunity that continues for all the people in this room. So I want to turn to speaking to all of you, from all your different, different backgrounds, some of which I've, [00:30:30] I've just um, canvassed. This is a special opportunity, right? You have an opportunity to keep going. I know times are tough in the health system, but you have an opportunity to keep making a difference on, on this front. And those opportunities are rare at the moment. So, I know that so often in HIV, uh, we see that leadership comes from the community. Uh, and I know that the officials in Health New Zealand recognize that. So, uh, [00:31:00] keep doing the amazing work that you're doing. Uh, keep, um, uh, keep bringing the reality of the lived experience of people with HIV in the communities that you serve. that support people with HIV, uh, to everyone's attention because that is the way, uh, that we will work, um, get, get to that better future that we envisage with the HIV, uh, HIV action plan. So, it's rare that we have, um, moments of, uh, uh, bi partisan, [00:31:30] um, support for, for things in this house, which makes me think that maybe we're going a wedding of a different kind, um, uh, this, this morning, but I think that is something really special, and I just hope that everyone, uh, takes that away today, that, that, um, moments like this don't, don't come up often, and you have the opportunity to really, uh, take what you've got and make a success of the, um, of the, um, of the action, uh, plan. And. I [00:32:00] really want to, um, but in saying so, I know there are other, um, other priorities that we'll also have on our mind. Priorities around, uh, blood donation, for instance, uh, prioritise, uh, priorities around making sure that all parts of the rainbow community get, get their health needs, uh, health needs met. So those are front of mind for us. So good luck for the rest of your, um, uh, your day, and I hope you have, uh, fruitful discussions today. We will be toiling away in Health Select Committee at our annual review [00:32:30] hearing, so I'm afraid we can't join with you for the rest of, rest of your meeting, but thank you very much for your continued mahi, and all the best for the years ahead. Nga mihi, thank you Aisha, and thank you again for your continued leadership, uh, and support of the HIV response. Um, it's now my pleasure to introduce, um, our next speakers, uh, Clive Aspen and Amohia [00:33:00] Bolton. Dr. Clive Aspen grew up in Hauraki, where he whakapapa is to Ngati Maru, Ngati Whanaunga, and Ngati Tamatera. He has lived throughout the duration of the AIDS pandemic and has experienced firsthand the ravages of the pandemic on communities around the world, especially in France. Uh, the UK, Australia, and Aotearoa, uh, countries where he's lived and worked. He's been engaged in the struggle against HIV, uh, as an HIV prevention community [00:33:30] worker, a researcher, and a board member of the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, uh, where he served as the first Māori chair. Clive is an associate professor at Te Hiringa Waka, Victoria University, where he teaches Māori health related courses and conducts research into rangatahi suicide as well as HIV prevention and the role of Te in policy development. Joining Clive is Dr. Amohia Bolton, Ngāti Ranginui, Ngāi Te Rangi, Ngāti [00:34:00] Mutunga, Te Ā ti Awa o Te Waka a Maui, is a policy, a former policy analyst and private secretary to the Minister of Māori Affairs. Dr. Bolton, a Kaupapa Māori health services researcher, leads the only tribally owned and mandated health research centre in New Zealand, uh, which is about to celebrate its 20th anniversary. And we are, along with her team, she works towards the vision of transforming Māori lives through excellent research.[00:34:30] Please welcome, uh, Clive and Amohia. Tēnā koutou. Ko tēnei te mihi atu nei ki a koutou, kua tāi māi nei ki tēnei hui.[00:35:00] kō Waihou, Peaukō, Ngā Awa, ko Ngāti Maru, Ngāti Whānanga, Ngāti Tama, tēnā [00:35:30] ngā iwi. Ngō reira he mile tīno poto tēnei ki a koutou i te rangi nei tēnā koutou tēnā koutou tēnā a tātou katoa. Good morning, everybody. So Minister Verrall. I think my family's a little bit different from yours. I look around the room and I see wonderful people like Dame Catherine, Dame Catherine Healy.[00:36:00] My friend over here, Marama Pala, who's been a staunch advocate for HIV and people living with HIV for many years. And my friend over here, my new friend, Benjamin Doyle. These are people who have been stalwarts of our community. Thank you. And it's sobering to stand here this morning and realize that it's taken 36 years to get to this point. [00:36:30] We've been living with HIV in this country for over 40 years, but it's taken 36 years for us to meet here in this place of significance and importance to commemorate the lives of people that we have lost. I walked into this room this morning and I was stunned To see this slide on the screen, because this was the screen that I prepared for my talk, not [00:37:00] to be the screen that was greeting us when we all walked in. So now that it's been here, while you've been here, you've had time to study this. And many of the people in this room will recognize the names of some of the friends that we have lost. And some of their names stand out. People like Tom O'Donoghue. who was a great stalwart of the gay community, the first openly HIV positive man in this country. I've been [00:37:30] coming to AIDS, World AIDS Day memorials, uh, for longer than I can remember. And the purpose of World AIDS Day memorials was to remember those who have gone before. So this is an opportunity for us to pause and reflect on the fact That we are standing on the shoulders of giants. And here we have some of them named here. This is only, this is the list of people I have known who have passed away [00:38:00] from HIV. From AIDS related illnesses. And many of you here today will know many, many, many more. So, I want to take you through my experiences of living in the midst of a pandemic. of a pandemic that is claimed close to 35 million people around the world. And I understand there are approximately the same number of people today [00:38:30] living with HIV. So it's a great honor to be able to stand here and recall the names of friends and family members we've lost. And I invite you during the course of my brief Talk to reflect on the names of people that you have lost to this pandemic. So [00:39:00] as we all know, the pandemic has moved into a new phase in recent times with access to amazing treatments, uh, to keep people alive and ensure the same length of life as everybody else. And as I said, it's important to recognize that we do stand on the shoulders of giants who've gone before us. The image you see before you is one of Tauria, Tauria. He is just one of many we've [00:39:30] lost to this pandemic in this country. He was a pioneer and an activist within his own community. I believe he was affiliated to Tuhoe. As an out HIV positive man who also identified as Takatapui. He did a huge amount. more than we can imagine to raise awareness of HIV among Maori in general, but also the people from the iwi from [00:40:00] which he came. Uh, most cities around the world, and I've lived in quite a few, have memorials out in public places to commemorate people who have died from HIV related illnesses. I don't believe we have one here in New Zealand, but if you are fortunate to go up Cuba Street, you can go and see one that's been created. in a bar that's called S and M, which is quite appropriate. And on the wall, you will see many of the members of our community [00:40:30] who have died during the course of the HIV pandemic. Uh, S, by the way, stands for Scotty, and M stands for Mel. So, the bar is named after two stalwarts of the gay community of Wellington, Scotty and Mel. So, some of you will recognise the photo of Rex Perenara.[00:41:00] Rex, many years ago, recognised that Maori were vulnerable to HIV. And he also recognised that we were being underserved within the community and within the resource allocations. He was instrumental in setting up Te Ropu Tautoko Trust. And despite the [00:41:30] vulnerability of Maori to HIV, the government of the day failed to provide HIV, funding for HIV prevention. And that important function was left to the AIDS Foundation. Te Ropu Tautoko Trust was funded to provide care and support. For people living with HIV, that in itself was important. But throughout the course of the pandemic, at all the international conferences I've been to, the overriding message was that we must spend money on [00:42:00] prevention. If we're going to get on top of this pandemic, the money needs to be spent on prevention. And unfortunately, there was no funding for prevention, uh, given to Te Roku Taitoko Trust. And in my view, that was a contributing factor. to the disparities that we're now starting to see within Maori. And I believe the found the, the, the data from your group, Peter, is now starting to reflect the fact that Maori have higher rates of HIV, [00:42:30] and we know also that Maori women are more late l more likely to be diagnosed late for HIV. And if you get a late diagnosis for HIV, you don't enjoy the same long life as everybody else. Turopu Taitoko Trust was also instrumental in organising the first International Indigenous Peoples Conference to develop strategies to deal with the challenges to the health and well being of Indigenous people.[00:43:00] This meeting was held in Auckland way back in 1996 and it was a forerunner to other International Indigenous Peoples Conferences such as this. which are held on a regular basis now before the international AIDS conferences. Many of you will recognize the people in this photo, at least one of the people. And I had the great pleasure of being Georgina's teacher when she [00:43:30] was a fourth form pupil at Papatoetoe High School. And I followed her career with significant interest for the rest of her life. Uh, and it was always good to run into her. The other day I was on a bus. Uh, from the airport to the city, to Hataita, where I live. And the bus driver was talking about Georgina with the passenger sitting in the front seat. So I couldn't help going up afterwards and saying, I used to be Georgina's school teacher. And he looked at me and said, No, you look too young. [00:44:00] Um, but I wouldn't tell Georgina that. Um, you probably don't recognize the man on the right. Uh, that, that is Bunny Thompson, a friend of mine, who was an important, uh, data collector. He worked as a research assistant for the first national survey of men who have sex with men conducted by the AIDS Foundation, and, and Bunny was instrumental in ensuring that we got a significant number of Maori respondents, uh, to that survey.[00:44:30] You'll probably also recognize many of the people in this photo. Uh, this was taken to celebrate Carmen's 70th birthday, I believe, in Sydney. And some of you will know that for decades, in fact, some of you have probably got whānau members, you will know that many Māori have left this country to escape the discrimination, the stigma, the marginalisation that people continue to experience for being Māori but also for being HIV [00:45:00] positive or for being members of the gay community. They seek, they thought, uh, they, that they went to places like Sydney, Los Angeles, San Francisco, New York to escape the stigma that they experienced here. And I know this for a fact, because for my PhD research, I spoke to many of the people who had left our country during the course of the AIDS pandemic. And they all told me to a person that they had gone to. [00:45:30] escape the discrimination they experienced in this country. But sadly, they were going to live in places that we now know became epicenters of the HIV pandemic. And sadly, many of our family members never returned. And there is a Urupa in Sydney that some of you will be familiar with in Rockwood Cemetery. There's a whole section devoted to Maori who die in Australia. And in New South Wales in [00:46:00] particular. And there is a significant number of our, uh, our family members who have been buried there and have never come home. I want to recognize the amazing work of my friend, Marama Pala, so I was a bit surprised to see her here this morning, but it's wonderful to see you, Marama. Marama has been a staunch activist of people living with HIV, both here in New Zealand but internationally, and it's tremendous to see you still carrying on the fight. Uh, my sister, because it's people [00:46:30] like you who make a difference. Another person I want to acknowledge here this morning is Millie Stewart from Toitū to Ao. It's the leadership that we get and experience from, from our, um, from Māori living with HIV that's going to get us through this pandemic and get us, uh, help us to deal with all the challenges that we confront today as a result of the pandemic. Uh, this is an example of what Maori, what indigenous people can do when they're resourced, when they're [00:47:00] given the resources they need to develop programs and initiatives to combat and confront this virus. This is an image taken at an international AIDS conference that shows the Toronto Charter, with which some of you will be familiar, but this provides an action plan about how indigenous communities can overcome HIV. And finally, I want to draw your attention to this wonderful man, Te Aotearangi McGarvey. He was an activist who served for a short time as a board [00:47:30] member of the AIDS Foundation and his message to delegates at the first national HIV hui is as true today as it was then. And just, um, for your interest, this is, these are the documents that came from that hui. This was the report. This was leading up to the report. And this was the first, and as I understand, only, National government initiative to deal with Maori and HIV and this was, uh, this hui took place in [00:48:00] 1994 and this is a report from the hui. If you want to see a copy of this, come and see me afterwards. But I just want to read you what, um, what Te Ata Rangi said at that hui. If we do not take responsibility and start the dialogue between family members and hapu and iwi, At every marae occasion, the impact of this new disease is going to be 10 times worse. Don't live in ignorance because it has a cost. The cost is the impact on our whakapapa. [00:48:30] We want to be able to protect our whakapapa. It's about survival and about continuation. And while he uttered those words in 1994, he might just as well have been here today to utter them in our presence. Thank you for listening. Kia ora mai tātou katoa.[00:49:00] Good morning to you all. [00:49:30] So it's a very hard job to follow, Clive. Um, in this space, you'll know, um, Clive's contribution and commitment to both HIV and AIDS research is outstanding, and he's been a ferocious advocate for and champion of reducing inequities in health outcomes, particularly for Māori and HIV. Keeping with the, um, theme of the wedding breakfast, um, think of me, if you will, as the partner to [00:50:00] the person that came to the wedding. So, this is a very new space for me. Um, I am neither, uh, an infectious disease clinician, nor an HIV researcher, nor do I have lived experience of HIV. However, what I do have and what I do bring are my skills and knowledge and expertise in health services research. So that is the whānau that come with me to this wedding breakfast and the skills and the knowledge and experience we bring to help, [00:50:30] um, in this important cause of eliminating HIV for Māori and for all of us in this country today. I just want to acknowledge quickly, um the host of this amazing event, uh, who I've recently met, um, Positive Women Inc., Body Positive Inc., the Burnout Burnett Foundation, and the reason that I'm standing here representing Māori women, um, Millie from Toitūteao. So thank you Millie for this morning. Right. [00:51:00] Um, I've talked a little bit about this. So, the centre that I run is the only health, uh, Iwi owned health research services organisation in Aotearoa. So we have almost 20 years experience of working in health services, where we are asked by community members to undertake work which is important to them. And I think that's part of the reason I'm here today, as I'll get into that. So,[00:51:30] One of the things I learnt quite quickly in these sort of spaces is that people want to know what you're going to talk about, so you can kind of zone out after reading the slide if you wish, because here are my take home messages. First, if we are to create an Aotearoa where both HIV transmission and stigma are eliminated for Māori. and for us all, then for Māori, the ones who have to design and lead [00:52:00] the services and the solutions must be Māori. We understand the needs of our communities. Tackling, secondly, tackling HIV transmission and stigma requires a collective effort, and I would, I would argue, a whānau centred approach. And then linking those points together beyond the fact that Māori need to, uh, design and lead their own solutions. Māori must also be given the autonomy to implement the strategies, the policies, [00:52:30] and the services that work for us, rather than simply be passive recipients of care or considered as just another vulnerable population group. So let's see if I can get to these three points in the few minutes I have left. So, back in 2020, cast your minds back, our world was turned upside down as we battled, uh, the COVID pandemic. Fortunately, we didn't experience here in New Zealand, in Aotearoa, the devastation that many [00:53:00] countries did, and that was because of a deliberate strategy of going hard and going early. In our Māori communities, they knew the havoc that could be wrought upon Māori from the introduction of a new disease. We have these oral histories that tell us so. So we went even harder and we went even earlier. We've learned much from the lessons of COVID. Our centre was involved in at least three different studies which documented both the iwi and the Māori [00:53:30] response. And this quote is a fairly typical summation of what happened in those communities across the country. So we have already seen the speed at which our Māori leadership can move and mobilise when the lives of its people, our people, are threatened. We've seen how our health experts can provide timely and relevant advice to the Crown on how it can protect tangata whenua. And we've seen how, if given the funding and the autonomy to do [00:54:00] so, our Māori provider sector can reach rapidly into the homes and the communities of the very marginalised, of the disenfranchised, and the otherwise ignored, providing essential support and services so our whānau stay safe. We've just completed the fieldwork component and we're writing up the results now of a study which is looking to understand the barriers that exist today to Māori being, being able to access pre exposure [00:54:30] prophylaxis, Māori men. Participants in this study talked at length about the need to design services which meet the needs of those who use the service. And can I say this is nothing new, if you've worked in primary healthcare, in mental health, in addiction services, or any other sector where Māori are a significant proportion of the consumer group. So as one participant noted, interventions are rarely designed by those who actually need or use the intervention, or the service, [00:55:00] or the treatment. And as a result, those services often end up being the places where Māori don't want to be. So if we can't even get our Māori in the door, how are we on earth expected? to eliminate HIV AIDS from this country. Ensuring the consumer group, uh, the consumer voice is privileged is critical to an intervention's success. And in the case of Māori, we have ample evidence which shows that when services are designed by us and led by us, where we have the [00:55:30] autonomy and the funding and the resources to work for Māori, the likelihood of reaching the so called hard to reach whānau, communities, and collectives increases exponentially. Our providers don't just know our communities, they are of our communities. I'm trying to conclude, uh, now. You might not know this, but, what I want to conclude with is, um, a potentially controversial [00:56:00] statement by saying that HIV AIDS is not a gay men's disease. It is not a disease of homosexuals, nor of queer people, although the rainbow community has undoubtedly borne the brunt of the harm, and the anguish, and the stigma, and the shame that this disease perpetrates. Why do I say this? I say it perhaps, um, to wake you all up? No. After your big feed? No. Not to belittle, uh, the harm and the anguish that has been wrought, but [00:56:30] rather to remind us that HIV AIDS is indiscriminate. It affects men, it affects women, it affects non binary, transgender, straight, queer, young, old. It affects us all. It's a disease that infects individuals, but it affects whānau. It affects our communities, and it affects our collectives. We know it's true that the harm of, that [00:57:00] is, uh, held by one person, it Spreads throughout our community, spreads throughout us all. The solutions, therefore, have to come from our collective, from the community, and from our whānau. If we want to reduce transmission rates and work towards the elimination of the virus, then we must truly work together to meet this objective. I count myself very privileged to work with some amazing young people who will be the future of the solutions. The solutions to the [00:57:30] past that Clive has eloquently outlined for us. So I want to finish with the words of a young, uh, man in our team who put together this image for World AIDS Day. Because if we've learnt nothing, we need to learn from our rangatahi. They are our leaders of the future. The mangopare, or the hammerhead shark, is a repeating image in this design, representing tenacity, resilience, determination. The three differently styled and coloured mangopare [00:58:00] reflect the unique journey of whānau living with AIDS. Each whānau carry their own purākau, their own story, their own unique story of courage and struggle. The variations in the Māngopare design celebrate the diversity of the individual experience. They honour the distinct circumstances in each whānau while recognising shared strength and shared perseverance. Aligned in a tukutuku panel inspired pattern, the Māngopare collectively represent the [00:58:30] power and the unity and the collaboration of whānau who live with AIDS. Just as tukutuku weaves threads into a cohesive whole, together we can create greater collective impact. Together, the Mangopare embody the bravery of whānau living with AIDS and serve as a reminder that through shared determination, resilience and support, we can navigate even the most turbulent of waters. Nō reira e ngā pūkenga, [00:59:00] e ngā mātanga, kai a koutou te mahi, me mahi tahi tātou. Toitū te mana, toitū te tiriti, toitū te ao. Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa.

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TITLE: Transgender Day of Remembrance 2024
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VOICES: Fei Taule'ale'ausumai; Fionn McKenzie; Frank Hanson; Fuimaono Karl Pulotu-Endemann; Lynne Dovey; The Glamaphones
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1990s; 2020s; Abuse in Care - Royal Commission of Inquiry; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Carmen Rupe; Catholicism; Chanelle Pickett; Chrissy Witoko; Donald Trump; Evergreen Coffee House; Fei Taule'ale'ausumai; Fionn McKenzie; Frank Hanson; Fuimaono Karl Pulotu-Endemann; Gaza; God; Gwendolyn Ann Smith; HIV / AIDS; HIV education; HIV stigma; Heterosexuals Unafraid of Gays (HUG); ILGA Oceania; Jahaira DeAlto; La Cage aux Folles (film); Lake Alice Hospital; Lebanon; Luamanuvao Winnie Laban; Lynne Dovey; Massachusetts (USA); Matai; Mexico; Nancy Nangeroni; New Zealand Labour Party; Oakley Hospital (Auckland); Pacific; Palmerston North; Pasi Daniels; Presbyterian; Rainbow Labour New Zealand; Rita Hester; Roy Stacey; Samoa; Sarah Quarte; St Andrew's on the Terrace; Sudan; The Glamaphones; The Purple Onion; Transgender Day of Remembrance; Ukraine; United States of America; Wellington; akava'ine; church; community; courage; courageous; fa'afafine; fakaleiti; family; homosexual law reform; hīkoi; indigenous peoples; mahu; missionary; obstetrics nurse; prayer; psychiatric hospital; psychiatric nurse; remembrance; stroke; trans man; trans woman; transgender; transphobia; transphobic violence; two-spirit
DATE: 24 November 2024
YEAR: 2024
LOCATION: St Andrew's on the Terrace, 30 The Terrace, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the service at St Andrew's on the Terrace, Wellington to commemorate Transgender Day of Remembrance. The service took place on Sunday 24 November, with the Day of Remembrance on the 20th November. A stereo recording of The Glamaphones performance can be heard here. A special thank you to St Andrew's for allowing this event to be recorded and shared. This recording has been edited, with some parts of the service not included.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: November 2024
TEXT: Come, Christ Jesus, come. You who welcome all, from all the world, come, Christ Jesus, come, to greet us now. We come as we are, from every race and love and gender, to build your house, our home. God of all compassion. We come today on this Transgender Day of Remembrance to [00:00:30] remember all gender diverse people who have been persecuted, discriminated against, suffered hate, crime, have been murdered or have taken their own lives because of the rejection they face. Help us today to understand the things we may not understand. Help us to bring love and not hate. Help us to rejoice in the diversity that humanity creates. God of all [00:01:00] genders and none, source of our glorious difference and true harmony, bearer of all pain and spirit of transformation, we give you thanks that you have created us in your own image, in the many splendid forms of our human diversity. Hear us as we remember and affirm gender diverse people. Transform the violence, pain and struggles of the past and present. [00:01:30] Bring you life out of death, hopelessness and despair. And empower us with your grace, strength and joy. May we be like kingfishers catching fire, dragonflies drawing flame. Amen. Beautiful butterflies shining with your love in the name of Christ and Carnet, and a thousand places and more. Amen.[00:02:00] We to greet you in the name of Jesus Christ. Special welcome to all of you who are worshipping us for the first time. To the Glamourphones, thank you for making today, um, an important priority for you, and, uh, for, for us as well. I have great privilege and pleasure of welcoming my [00:02:30] dear friend and soulmate here, um, Afioga Dr Fuimaono Karl Pulotu-Endemann.[00:03:00] So, um, Carl is going to be our keynote speaker and I don't know what he's going to say, but um, I'm sure it is going to be a real honor and a privilege. So I will give him a little interview in family time so you can get a heads up on, on him. So, um, let's now [00:03:30] read together the Jesus prayer. Eternal Spirit. Life giver, pain bearer, love maker, source of all that is, Father and Mother of us all. Loving God, in whom is heaven. The hallowing of your name echoes through the universe. The way of your justice be followed by peoples of the world. [00:04:00] Your heavenly will be done by all created beings. Amen. Your commonwealth of peace and freedom, sustain our hope and come on earth. With the bread we need for today, feed us. In the hurts we absorb from one another, forgive us. In times of temptation and test, strengthen us. From trials too great to endure, spare us. [00:04:30] From the grip of all that is evil, free us. For you reign in the glory of the power that is love now and forever. Amen. I forgot to mention we're having lunch afterwards and you're all invited so don't run away. So Jasper, Jasper's going to come and light our rainbow candle. So we light this rainbow candle to [00:05:00] show that we are an inclusive community. And for our children. Thank you. Right. Carl. Can I call you Carl? All those huge titles you've got. Because he's a matai as well, a chief. What? You, you call yourself a fafafine? Yes. Could you please explain [00:05:30] what a fafafine is? Fafafine. Fafafine. The two things, can I just say, uh, there's a river in our faith. There are two things that are non negotiable about me. And that's, first of all, I'm Samoan and I'm a Fafafine. A Fafafine, basically it's, uh, uh, uh, an identifier with that, uh, uh, title, uh, because that's who I am. And, um, it's, uh, physically a male and, uh, but have the spirit [00:06:00] of the woman. I am not a transgender, I don't, uh, transition, but it's an inclusive term. But can I just also say that, um, that's just Samoa, that's throughout the Pacific, uh, there's, uh, in the Cook Islands, you've got the Akaraini, you've got in Tonga, you've got the Whakareti, or the Whakafafine. Uh, way up in Hawaii and in Tahiti, they're known as the Mahu, Uh, also in, uh, Fiji is the Vakasa [00:06:30] Lewa Lewa, Pagopa is the name people from Papua New Guinea give. But also, uh, the, um, So there's right throughout the Pacific, you know, I'm just one of those. And we existed in the Pacific before the missionaries came. The earliest, uh, uh, recorded was, uh, uh, 1768 by a, uh, sailor who went with a, um, comely lass behind the bush and found it was a comely lad. [00:07:00] And that was the recorded record of a Mahou. So, sorry about that, that seems to be such a long, but, uh, and I know that in Maori then they also, and I know Jakartaapu is, so we existed in the Pacific, but then also just to give you a more world like, uh, in America, we, in, uh, they have the two spirited people. Uh, they don't like the idea of being called Bidashe, because Bidashe is a French term. But, so, there's, [00:07:30] uh, right, and I'm very much involved in the indigenous, uh, world, so we have a world that's, uh, but the Fafafina, I just want to say, is part of the family. You can't address, uh, uh, Fafafina without addressing the fact that we come from families. Our titles, like I have, as you alluded to, is the recognition of my service to my, not only immediate family, but my extended family, and indeed the village where I come from. Um. Thank you. You were, um, [00:08:00] were you the first psychiatric nurse, uh, of the Pacific, um Reverend Fei, you're now telling the age. I was telling Jim about this, and I know Frank and Gareth has already recorded me, but just for the record, I was born in 1950. I came to New Zealand in 1959. I can see mathematicians going, Well, yes, well, for the benefit of the government, I'm seventy four. And, uh, and I've always, uh, uh, been, [00:08:30] uh, that I was brought up by my grandparents and I was hāpīnē and, uh, so when I came to New Zealand, I was, I was quite surprised that I just thought it was the norm. And, um, and I recall my mother saying to me, uh, I was brought up by her parents and saying, you know, Karl, in New Zealand, boys Don't act like you and, um, and I cannot just say that I saw the movie, um, Birdcage and there was a scene where a lot of [00:09:00] us have seen it where this very effeminate, uh, character was taught how to walk like a man. A lot of people laugh about that, I didn't, I cried because I suddenly realised what my mother had meant, that what I accepted as the norm was ridiculed in New Zealand. But I mean, that was just me. Did I answer your question? No, I didn't. Yeah, I talked about psychiatric nurse. Yeah, right. That's just one of, I mean, people are so Yes, I did. I trained [00:09:30] in 1971 at Oakley Carrington Hospital. And I also trained as a general nurse at, uh, Auckland Hospital. And then, uh, I trained as an obstetric nurse. in National Women's Hospital. Jim, I was telling Jim that one of the things that when I re cos I was one of the first obstetric in this country, so I wanted to go to Scotland, but, uh, I was, my parents sort of, and I'm the eldest of eleven, and I had to work to get, [00:10:00] you know, I had to live and look after them. But, uh, that's, the School of Midwifery, that was always another area I wanted to, but I ended up being in the mental health area. It's been my passion, Can I just add that, um, it's been that, the mental health, and as far as I'm concerned, whether you're gay, lesbian, rainbow, transgender, intersect, to me it's about health. It's about your identity and it's what, and health and you, it makes you whole. And [00:10:30] if that's not together, because I've seen that over the years, I was, uh, recently had, uh, I sat on the Royal Commission for Abuse and Care. for those children that were put in faith and also in, uh, state care from 1950 to 1999. I'm very aware of that because I was working in a psychiatric hospital. I also worked at Lake Ellis. So I saw the damage to kids, um, and also one of the things I just need to add, [00:11:00] In that commission, when I was, I sat as Pacific Island representative, I noticed there was something missing, I think. And what it was, was that there was an assumption that all those kids that were put in care were heteronormal. And I said, that's not the case. Though I know some lesbians, some trans, some intersex, I knew that they were treated at that time. So, luckily, that was then addressed. But yes, to answer your question, yes, I very much [00:11:30] work in the mental health, and I still do. Uh, but really more in community. And so that's why I love being in this church. Can I just acknowledge the parishioners of St. Andrews or Hatu Anaruo? Um, five years ago, we had a meeting of the ILGA at the back here. very much. And it was a traumatic but it was a very healing one for me personally, because a week before I came to this meeting here, my partner of 40 years had a [00:12:00] stroke, and he's a Pākehā, and that's why I live in Christchurch. But I always want to acknowledge the role of St Andrew's Church and the people of St Andrew's. They've always been incredibly supportive. Even amongst all the anti human things. So I'd really like to thank you, first and foremost, for today. My own personal thank you to the parishioners of St Andrews. Thank you, Carl. Um, Jasper, do you have any questions you want to ask him?[00:12:30] I know it was family time for children, but, um, I hope this helped all of us, uh, this morning. Kyle's going to share much, much more. So right now we're going to stand and uh, offer the peace or the Rangimari to everyone. Peace to Christ Jesus. Peace to Christ Jesus. Peace to Christ Jesus. [00:13:00] Peace. Peace. Peace. A reading from the Hebrew Bible. From Psalm 139. Where can I go from your spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are [00:13:30] there. If I make my bed in the depths, you are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, Even there, your hand will guide me and your right hand will hold me fast. If I say, surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me. [00:14:00] Even the darkness will not be dark to you. The night will shine like the day for darkness is as light to you. For you created my inmost being. You knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Your works are wonderful, I know that [00:14:30] full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. How precious to me are your thoughts, O God. How vast is the sum of them. [00:15:00] Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of the sand. When I awoke. I am still with you. From the New Testament, the letter to the Galatians, chapter three. So in Christ Jesus, you are all children of God through faith. For all of you [00:15:30] who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile. Neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you're all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.[00:16:00] And the contemporary reading, an untitled poem. She wore golden rays of sunshine into a long and flowing dress that left the scent on everything she touched of nature's sweet caress. Everywhere the girl did go the flowers would all bloom [00:16:30] and she could cause the lonely feeling out of every darkened room. She could drive out all your sadness and cause a frozen heart to thaw. She'd paint the sky pink every morning, but nobody ever saw her. No one thought to thank her for the warmth upon their skin, or for chasing all [00:17:00] their demons from where the night time's breath had been. So she thought she wasn't needed. She could leave and they'd not care. They'd just taken her for granted since her light was always there. Because you never thank the ground until you know how it feels to fall. Or just how much you need the sun [00:17:30] until it doesn't rise at all. For the word in scripture, for the word among us, for the word within us, we give thanks.[00:18:00] A a a ah. A a a a ah. A a a a ah. That particular song, ladies and gentlemen, is the sea. Now, sea, like this, when Pacific Islanders put a sea or flowers in their hair, [00:18:30] they're putting it in the sacred space. And today, because it's a memorial day for those transgender that were killed, particularly, uh, Rita, um, Hester and, uh, Chanel, uh, Pickett, the two, uh, black Afro Americans in, that were. Uh, murdered in Massachusetts and culminated in November in 1999, the service. And I just want to sing that to remind people that it's not [00:19:00] just about those people, those transgender, but it's also those people left behind and those of our families who have passed. So, with that, I'd just like to take this off my head, but I just thought it's only timely, Reverend, that I should leave a gift to St. Andrews, and so I thought I'd leave this in memory of today, but as well as this, uh, this is actually, uh, we're wearing.[00:19:30] And can I send you the ings from the Pacific, from the Cook Islands? Ana, from the Kingdom of Tonga to to you from the Republic of Fiji. Māloni for those wonderful people from the Kōluan Islands of Tokelau. [00:20:00] Whakarofalahiatu from the Rock of Polynesia, otherwise known as Niue, and from all the other Pacific, including Samoa, Whakarofalahiatu. I also just want to now add, and I'll do it again, it's the meanings of those greetings. Thanks. Because everybody says Taro whanau is wonderful. You see, when iwi Māori says kia ora, and Cook [00:20:30] Island says kia orana, the magic in those greetings is the word ora orana, which means life. And then when, and then when, Uh, or rather the Tongan with Malo and Lele, and the, uh, Toke loans with Maloni, the Fijian with Nisambula, Winaka, and Namaste. The greetings, the magic in those greetings, uh, Winaka, Malo, and [00:21:00] Lele, which means wellness and goodness. And then from Niue, with Fakalofa Lahiatu, and Samoa with Talofa, the greetings is the word Alofa. Which means love and compassion. So if I wrap it all up together, it's not just saying good morning, it's saying wishing you, and you, and me, and everybody here, a life that is full of wellness and goodness, [00:21:30] but always cocooned in love and compassion. And that's what this is all about. It's about life, wellness and goodness, but also rept and love and compassion. I wanted to say just, uh, I mentioned the transgender, this is about transgender, but it's more than that. Yesterday, Rev Fei, sorry, Dr Rev Fei Taule'ale'ausumai and I went to visit some very special people because they're not very [00:22:00] well. And one of those is our friend and Fei's cousin, the Fiong'a Lomanavao Dame Winifred, um, Laban. And then after that, we went to see another, um, 90 year old. Uh, relation and friend called Pasi. Now Pasi is, uh, uh, Winnie's uncle. But Pasi, for the Wellingtonians, owned and ran the Purple Onion. In the Purple Onion, [00:22:30] everybody talks about Carmen. But Pasi actually employed Carmen and a lot of transgender during the time in here in Wellington. So those people, and in fact last night I was saying to Reverend Fei this morning, I got a call from a 90 this bed in hospital to say, I'm trying to find a lift because I want to hear you and Fei speak tomorrow and I said, there's no way you're coming in because you're [00:23:00] in your sick bed. So I said, but what I'll do is I'll mention your name but also, so that's it. So I've mentioned his name but the reasons why I say that is that the commemoration day of transgender that started November 20, 1999, from the horror of those murder of those sisters. But it was not new to New Zealand. It was not new. It also, there was also another side to this, is because [00:23:30] there, it happened in New Zealand as well. Here in Wellington, we had people walking the streets in, uh, that were also had suspiciously died. And they were mostly transgender and mostly Maori and Pacific. So, I just want to acknowledge the fact that this is a memorial, but it's also about living. And to memorialize the, the two, uh, uh, from America, but also we had people like the wonderful Carmen, [00:24:00] Chrissie Wee Chocop, who, uh, uh, the Evergreens. We also had our own salons. We had, um, uh, Augustine, uh, Ula Rau, who, uh, used to advocate for a lot of the, the fa'afafine here in Wellington. And, uh, uh, a little bit of history for some of us older ones, that one of the lawyer who was forever grateful at the Pacific Island was Roy Stacey, because Roy Stacey used to advocate for a lot of those. I think Frank, you interviewed that, that crowd as well. So [00:24:30] It's that kind of thing that you're wanting, but I really just not want to talk about transgender, but also about how community I'd really also like to talk about the history of the movements. During 1986 was, of course, the homosexual law reform. I was very much involved with that. I lived in Palmerston North with my partner. And the thing was, was that there was a lot of angst, not only for transgender, but for gay, lesbian, for the rainbow community. [00:25:00] And for those of us, it required a lot of support and a lot of action, but it also required a lot of allies. St. Andrew's Church, some of the parishioners, a lot of you are here, we're very much part of that movement. Um, and I really, a lot of, there's a group that a lot of people don't mention, and it was a group called H. U. G. Lovely, Ellen. H. U. G. H stands for heterosexual, U stands for unafraid of [00:25:30] gays. Hug. I thought it was wonderful. Mostly a lot of women. I think there's members of Hugs in the audience, I think. But they were a group, mostly of women, who were very supportive. But also, so, it's really about the group actions. Now normally, one of the things I like to really concern because of the advocacy for Rainbow or more inclusive, I do have a problem with the term LGBTQI, not that name, because it doesn't include[00:26:00] The T in that is actually transgender. It doesn't include Maori. It doesn't include other indigenous. What I'm saying is, we're more than just that plus. Because we existed in the Pacific. We existed here as well. And, uh, but the most important thing is, those two murders, really cultivate, this is what we need to do to prevent murder, to prevent [00:26:30] and to maintain some balance. Because, right now, and I do believe, we went from a lift, So government to more right with Trump, but also in our own government here, and we've got to be very vigilant of some of the parts that could change, because I know I read that Trump is strongly advocate against the transgender issue. So here's the thing. This is the main issue, I thought. If you look at a triangle, [00:27:00] It's usually, you will get the policy at the top, the government, and then it filters down. And right at the bottom of the triangle is the community. And that in the community involves people like us here, the churches. Very churches is incredibly important for Pacific because our whole life is around churches. Whether you're a Catholic, whether you're Presbyterian, Ifakasa Church, Methodist, because they belong to us and we belong to them. So the [00:27:30] churches have a major role in our lives. Maybe not also for everybody else. You know, I'm a Catholic. I used to say recovering Catholic. I think I'm still recovering, but, uh, I know my priests will say, I heard that you spoke at a Presbyterian church, but you haven't been coming to, uh, Mass for a long time. Well, you know, God's everywhere. But the point I really want to make is that usually it's from the top down. I absolutely believe now, [00:28:00] and since the Homosexual Law Reform and all the movement, that it really should be inverted, and that it's actually the bottom up. That it's the community at the very top, and then it filters down to the policy makers. Because that's where community actions And can I just go back to the, the two transgender, the Afro American, They weren't the one that started the Memorial Day, it was actually their friends who'd gone to [00:28:30] church, one of them when, uh, Rita, uh, uh, uh, Hester was, uh, murdered. And it was some friends who said, Look, a year ago, uh, then Chanel got murdered. And she said, look, The same thing's happening. Let's do something about it. And that's what I really like to congratulate you, uh, Reverend Fei and the, and the parishioners or congregation of, uh, St. Andrews. That it really is, you're very much part of that role forward, [00:29:00] here and forward, because See, it's not just us. And can I also acknowledge the fabulous Glamaphones? I would, when I saw the, the, you were singing, I thought, oh, shall I dare sing in front of them? I mean, they're, they're top class group. But, uh, but really, uh, the work that you've done, wonderful. Thank you. But I think it's really about the community. It's really about rolling in the community. And, uh, I'm [00:29:30] really more happy to take more questions. Are you allowed to take questions or not? Because I have a, I actually have a presentation, but I'm really more interested in answering anything, uh, that you would particularly like. But I want to tell you some stories. And that is being uncomfortably courageous. Uncomfortably courageous. Because, you know, people say, oh, you're so courageous, you're so resilient. Actually, and I've [00:30:00] learned that from people like yourself, it's being uncomfortable courageous. And one of the, the issue for me was when it came to standing up for, uh, rights, that sometimes you say, well, I don't want to be left alone, shall I do it or not? But it's the ability to stand up and do it. And you have to be uncomfortable, and a lot of you know that. It's uncomfortable, even in gramophones, for instance. When you say gramophones, I know it's a rainbow group. People say, oh, it's a rainbow group. I say, yes, of course [00:30:30] it is. Well, that takes courage to stand up, stand up and sing. That's what I meant. It's no use just being courageous and sit back. It's the mothers who were courageous, who stood up. And I just, I know there's a lot of women, I know there's a lot of men here, but can I just speak to the mothers, the aunties and the grandmothers in the room. And that is, in my own work, and [00:31:00] particularly with HIV AIDS, When the Homosexual Law Firm came out that there were people who were, cos you couldn't, there's also the HIV AIDS, and I was, because of my background being nursing, I was more involved in the health. And so it was hand in hand. We gotta get the, the law passed in order to talk about prevention, like condoms, things, and use. It was actually the women that I went to, both in Pacific, Maori, but also in Pākehā. It was the women. Because women knew the safety [00:31:30] of their families. Safety. So, you know, and it was right here in Wellington, in the Morne, when a church minister's wife, and one of the women, was saying, Oh, you know, you should be careful to say about condoms and sex, because it's the wife of a church minister. I'm forever grateful to Fereni, because it was Fereni who stood up. And stood up and said, listen, I am a church minister's wife, but I'm here as a mother and I'm concerned about the family, my own [00:32:00] safety. So if you have a problem about sex, go outside, but I'm staying. And also because, uh, it's, and right now, even in mental health, because we know that transgender and, uh, rainbow people like gay, lesbians, trans men, see, people talk about transgender usually from male to female, but we also have very trans men, and they need a lot of support. So it's about, you know, really standing, advocating for those people. [00:32:30] Along with that, I want to share with you what happened. It was actually a meeting up at, um, Cuba Mall. And we were going to talk about, um, I was on the, uh, Capital Coast District Health Board at the time, but we were talking about, um, uh, about, uh, surgery. And so the meeting in the labor rooms at the Cuba mall started from five to six and then Rainbow Labor was going to go from six to seven. So before that we had all the doctors and we had [00:33:00] endocrinologists, surgeons, physician, and then of course the meeting. And the first meeting, of course, There was a lot of different people, weren't all gay, or lesbian, or transgender. But anyway, the meeting was finishing, and then came the end. My point here is that I don't ever assume anything. Now I've always considered myself, if I feel gay, I feel like I could use all my life. But there are things I need to learn constantly. Because as the first meeting was leaving, [00:33:30] I turned around to one of my transgender friends and said, um, oh gosh, you know, I come straight from work, she said, and, um, I hope they're not going to feed us those crummy biscuits. And I said, well, she said, oh God, you know, like, you know what the Labour government, the Labour Party, they still need. So I said, don't worry, we'll go to the fish and chip shop just up Cuba. You know the fish and chip place? That's right. So we'll cut the fish and chips face. But, I said to her, those two in the front, you know those men, [00:34:00] somebody tell them that, uh, the meeting's over, it's now the, going to be the rainbow labour, which is the gay, uh, part of the rainbow labour. Um, you know, the meeting's over. And she burst out laughing. Because I think, she said, which man? I said, you know, those two men, very spunky looking, the Pākehā one with the balding head and the Māori guy. And they said, she'd laugh like, she said, Karl, they're trans men. So the point here is that I just didn't know. I need to be educated. [00:34:30] The only thing I'm really consistent is, I think there's still stunning men and they're spunky. So it's those kind of two. I think I really, the other story I really want to talk to, I've reflected on this really, but I'm going to say it. I'm a Catholic, and I was brought up a Catholic, and my mother, who's a theologian, was a very strong Catholic, Catholicist. And I was living in, uh, Palmerstow with my partner. My mother was always very open. I have [00:35:00] another brother who's gay, and my baby brother's gay, and also, uh, uh, Sister of the lesbian who passed away. All of us have long term relationships. Largely because of the support from families. And I want to make that point because I know for transgender, those transgender people who have the support of their family in relation to suicide, Only 4 percent in the study they've done in America, 4%. But if those who do not have family and do not have supportive community, 60 [00:35:30] percent suicide. So it's a huge amount of number. We have just been very fortunate in our family with our mother, but I want to tell you this particular story. In Palmerston North, now, Fei will know this. When church ministers enter your house, they're like God, really, because, uh, or God and Hannah, because, you know, everything they get the best. Uh, uh, food, everything. Father Martin, who is Irish, was in my home, and my mother was, she was waving the food. I don't know why she had to get the waving the food, because there was no flies. But it [00:36:00] was the conversation of a frightened Martin, uh, Martin and I. Father Martin said to me, Now, Karl, what have you been up to? And I said, Oh, well, you know, lots of things. I think about homosexual reform. Oh, yes, yes, I've heard about that. Tell me all about that. And I said, Oh, well, you know, same. My mother's like this. She's like this. And then he said, Well, other things. I said, well, it's the concept of God. Oh, he said, it's the concept of God. I said, well, every time, you know, we looked at God, God is always pictured as a, a white man with long blonde hair and blue [00:36:30] eyes and sitting on a mountaintop. And Father Martin said to me, um, and this is all this, and I still had to wave at my mother. She said, well, what do you, why do you say that? And I said, well, the thing is. If I really believe God is about love and compassion and charity, then I really think God may be a woman. By this time, my mother was flapping, and like this, and I said, actually, and Father Martin said, oh no, that's very interesting, he was very [00:37:00] interesting, and I said, what further? And I said, well, if I really have to be honest, Father Martin, I think God is a Samoan woman, while my mother was an Ephes, and then, and then, my mother was, she just stopped like this, and I said, but if I really have to be honest, Father Martin, I think God is a Fafafine. No, I said that publicly, and this isn't filmed, so I, I don't know. And this is my thing. Because God is about love [00:37:30] and compassion, love, God is in you, and it's in me. And I've got it, that's why I believe. God is all of us. Norela people, thank you for this opportunity to speak today. And I wish you. The very, very best in the future. Thank you.[00:38:00] Transgender Day of Remembrance was started by transgender advocate Gwendolyn Ann Smith, who said that this day seeks to highlight the losses we face due to anti transgender bigotry and violence. She said, I'm no stranger to the need to fight for our rights. And the right to simply exist is first and foremost. With so many seeking to erase transgender people, sometimes in the most brutal ways possible, it's vitally important that those we [00:38:30] lose are remembered, and that we continue the fight for justice. We light a candle in memory of the 427 trans and gender diverse people who've been reported as murdered in the year since we last marked Transgender Day of Remembrance. God of peace, we give thanks for each precious life, for the divine light they shone in the world, and we mourn their senseless deaths. May all those who grieve find comfort [00:39:00] and support. We acknowledge that these reported deaths only represent a fraction of the loss of life. We light a candle for those whose deaths were not reported, or whose identities are erased as a last act of violence. God of justice, you know their names. Enfold them in your love. We pray for resolve to root out injustice, ignorance and cruelty. We pray that all those who [00:39:30] perpetrate hate and violence will be led to restorative justice. We light a candle for all the trans and gender diverse people who've died because society did not ensure they had shelter, safe and accessible healthcare, and adequate income to survive. God of liberation, strengthen and guide us in the work that's needed to bring about a world where all can live with dignity and all can thrive. [00:40:00] We light a candle for all those who did not receive the love, support and acceptance they needed. For those who internalized the violence and hatred of the world and took their own lives. Our hearts break for those who are only children and could no longer continue the struggle just to exist. God of love, guide us towards others who are struggling, overwhelmed and traumatized, who feel that love cannot reach them. [00:40:30] Help us to show them Aroha. Strengthen us to embody your radical inclusion and to propagate the seeds of acceptance throughout our families, churches, and society. On this day, we stand together against hate and we renew our commitment to work for justice. In this way, we not only honor those we lost, we affirm the lives of the living. In being activists, allies, and [00:41:00] advocates, as we affirm the truth that all life is precious, we light a candle for the future we yearn for. God of all time, you kindle the flames of hope. We will never let them die away. We're now going to have some of the names of people who've died over the past year. on the screen and we'll have a time of reflection [00:41:30] and if you'd like to come up and light a candle for those people or for someone else that you would like to remember um, there's some small candles on the tables here and you're welcome to come up and do that. [00:46:00] loving creator, let the rain come and wash away the ancient grudges, the bitter hatred held and nurtured over generations. Let the rain wash away the memory of the heart and the gland, then oh God let the sun come out and fill the sky with beautiful rainbows. Let the warmth of the sun heal us wherever we are broken. Let it burn away the fog so that each of us sees each other clearly. So that we can move beyond labels, beyond accents, [00:46:30] gender, sexual orientation or skin colour. Let the warmth and brightness of the sun melt our selfishness so that we can share the joy and sorrow of our neighbours. And let the light of the sun be so strong that we will see all people as our neighbours. Let youth, nourished by rain, bring forth flowers to surround us with your beauty. And let the mountains teach our hearts to reach upward to heaven. Then, dear God, grant us [00:47:00] comfort, give us peace, and allow us strength to enable us to stand up, fight for, and be a voice of equality. In Jesus name. Amen. We give thanks for the Hikoi this past week. For the joyfulness, the unity, and the peacefulness of it. For the expression of something greater than us. For the ability [00:47:30] to send an important message to those in government. We give thanks for what we experienced and witnessed, and for the opportunities as St. Andrews people to contribute. We understand that as ordinary people we cannot take for granted the ability to participate in civil protest. We know that in many countries this display of dissent would not be possible. As people of the nation, we give thanks to the mystery we name God for [00:48:00] all that we are and for all that we can together become. Today we pray for gender diverse people everywhere, for those who are discriminated against and vilified and who because of hate and prejudice have suffered. We remember especially those who have died. God, help us to honor difference, to understand the things we do not, to accept the human condition. [00:48:30] God of diversity, help us to be thankful for the whole of our humanness. We think of the negotiators at COP29 in Baku, Azerbaijan, who are in last minute negotiations as they try to finalize a financial package for the wealthy countries to support small island nations and others in the developing world who are suffering badly from the effects of climate change, including sea level rise, floods, droughts, and [00:49:00] extreme heat. We pray that agreement is reached and that the balance of wealth may be redressed to mitigate climate change. God of justice, hear our prayer. As ever, we pray for the families who are caught in warfare in Gaza, Lebanon, Ukraine and Sudan. May the international community help them to find ways to preserve their lives and their humanity, despite the horrors around [00:49:30] them. God of healing, be with them. And in the prayers from the book, we're asked to pray for those who have died, and please pray for those who are ill, whether physically or mentally, particularly that the depressed may find hope, and please pray for the grieving, particularly the whanau and friends of Jyoti and Wendy who died this week. May they and we find comfort and [00:50:00] moments of peace. And in the circle of prayer we think today of the people of Mexico and the Methodist Church in Mexico and throughout the world. We hold all refugees in our hearts and pray in particular for those who are still detained in Australia. We give thanks that we in New Zealand are able to welcome 450 people from this group. We pray that more will have the opportunity to be resettled in the near future. In New Zealand, we remember those in [00:50:30] Parliament, and today we name Suze Redmayne and Leon Shane Reti. Here in the Central Presbytery, we pray for the leaders and people of Hastings St. Andrews Presbyterian Church. And now we say the prayer for St. Andrews, and if you are visiting today, please feel free to join us and make this a prayer for your community. We say together. Bless your people, God, and renew our life in this [00:51:00] place. Refresh us with a spirit of love and respect for all who follow the Jesus way, for those whose pathways differ from our own, and for care of the earth and its creatures. Bless the cities in which we live, that they may be places where honest dealing, good government, the desire for beauty, and the care for others flourish. Bless this church that what [00:51:30] we know of your will may become what we do and what we believe, the strong impulse of our worship and work. Amen. May the delight of God fill your souls with joy and give you strength to celebrate and embody Christ's love in the world. And the blessing of God creating, transforming and making new. Bring you to your true and loving home, now and always. Amen.

IRN: 7650
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TITLE: Sue Alexander - Lesbian clipping collection
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VOICES: Sue Alexander
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1950s; 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; 2020s; Alison Bechdel; Aotearoa New Zealand; Carmen Rupe; Cathy Sheat; Charlotte Museum; Curve (magazine); Deneuve (magazine); Denmark; Ellen DeGeneres; Federico Fellini; Gay Liberation Front (UK); HIV / AIDS; Hyde Park (London, UK); Lesbian Ball (Wellington); Lesbian Information, Library and Archives Centre (LILAC); Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); London; Lorae Parry; Lucy Lawless; Martin Potter; New Zealand Symphony Orchestra; Orange Is the New Black (tv); Parsons Bookshop (Wellington); Patricia Cornwell; Queen Elizabeth II; Return to Lesbos (book); Roy Parsons; Royal Academy of Music (UK); Sacred Heart College (Lower Hutt); Satyricon (1969, film); Stonewall riots (1969); Sue Alexander; Tadzio; The Balcony / Le Balcon; United Kingdom; Valerie Taylor; Wellington; World War 2; Your Ex (magazine); acting; contraception; disco; drag kings; dyke; femininity; film; flannel shirt; free speech; gay; gay liberation movement; gender fluid; herstory; identity; labels; language; lesbian; lesbian feminism; lesbian police; lipstick lesbian; marriage equality; mirror; music; nun; parties; pornography; pregnancy; press clipping; print media; separatism; sex education; skirt; sport; tennis; the pill; trans woman; transgender; violence; visibility
DATE: 3 November 2024
YEAR: 2024
LOCATION: Lesbian Information, Library and Archives Centre (LILAC), Second floor, 187 Willis Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: November 2024
TEXT: There are tens of thousands of clippings culled from, um, print media all over the place. About four percent of it has been given to me, donated to me by other people. The rest of it I've collected myself over time. With tens of thousands of clippings, how do you, how, how do you even start to organize that? Well, it's with immense difficulty [00:00:30] actually. Um, my most recent exhibition is now on the walls of Lilac, and it was a sort of background look at lesbian herstory, um, covering the same period that Lilacs been open, which is 1994 to 2024. I had quite a lonely childhood in terms of knowing what I felt [00:01:00] about other people, especially when puberty hit. And, um, I'm quite old. I was born in 1949, so I actually lived through the fifties, sixties, and so on. And, um, I was a child, of course. in the 50s, but there was all the incredible stereotyping and getting the women back from the war that went on, and you had to be frilly and feminine and stay at home and have babies. And, um, I [00:01:30] as a child never related to that, really. And when I became a teenager in the 60s, there wasn't much socially that I could relate to. Um, when I was too young, I'd seen some ghastly pornography. And then this strange Danish film on sex education came to Wellington. And a lot of my friends and colleagues have seen that. And it really was a big turn off when it came to child raising or [00:02:00] bearing. Um, and when I, society. Um, I didn't really like, um, what I had to do as a female. I was not relating to, to roles given to women then. Um, so I just sort of read magazines and books and, and collected the odd clipping, but it, I didn't really start it as a clippings collection, it just sort of happened. And then I lived overseas [00:02:30] for a couple of decades and I didn't sort of think much about it then, although I did collect a few things. And it was mainly about lesbians and in those days lesbians had more of an identity as lesbians. And in this clippings exhibition, incidentally, I can go into a bit of how the perception of lesbians has changed. Can you recall the first clipping you collected? [00:03:00] Uh, yes, I think I've got it somewhere. Uh, not on the wall at the moment, but it was, um, I was a student over in London for a while, As a student, you tend to put things on your, your door of your room and all that sort of thing. And I had one which was something like, um, This is a world where women marry women. Drugs are the norm. Um, and that sort of went on like that. I've still got it, but not here at the moment. And, um, [00:03:30] I just collected over time, uh, pictures of women who, um, didn't go the conventional so called feminine route. Um, and that initially meant, uh, could be straight women who dressed as men back in the days of wars, um, where they went off to search for their husband or, or just to be a patriot. Um, and that's what it is. Um, But then, I sort of, gradually it became more about [00:04:00] lesbian women. And it was, uh, lesbians seemed to me to be the ones that, uh, had a way out from the usual social roles. When I was 15, my mother sat me down and said, gave me this little lecture, which still makes me laugh when I think about it, but at the time my jaw hung on my chest. And it was, you've got to sit up straight and cross your legs at the ankle like the queen. Um, when you go out with a boy, you must never talk about [00:04:30] yourself. You must talk, uh, to him about his interests. You must bone up on his interests, research, and let him do all the talking. And, and, and it went on like this. And, uh, and I must never, uh, lose, uh, win at sports. So if I had a tennis match, I must always lose to the guy. And if I was doing swimming races or something, I must always lose. And the blokes, um, had to win. And, um, yeah. My jaw [00:05:00] was hanging on my chest all this, and I went out, and I won at tennis, and I won at the swimming and all the rest. Yes. So do you think that was, was that a common conversation between mothers and daughters back then? Very much so. It would have happened in the early 60s for me, but the 50s in particular was all about girls looking ultra spice girl femininity. Um, And, uh, [00:05:30] I think in the 60s it started to get a bit wilder when we got the pill. Um, and there was Carnaby Street over in London and, um, there wasn't much of that here, but, uh, um, Yeah, it started to get free up slightly in the 60s. And I hadn't heard about that sex education film. So what was that about? Um, it was a Danish made film and it was hilarious [00:06:00] actually because schools all took school parties and I think it was in that old cinema that's no longer with us, His Majesty's It was in Willis Street, anyway, it was a big cinema. And, um, when I went there, I was at Sacred Heart College at the time. And I drove the nuns in, because you could get your license at, on your, around 15, which I did. And, um, We were expecting something fairly sedate [00:06:30] and prude, and instead of which we had terrible Danish actors, um, and it was all the very worst things about pregnancy that you could even dream of. And, um, the boys around from other school parties were being sick in the aisles. And, um, I was pretty queasy myself. And it's a film that I've noticed a lot of other people, um, happen to see. And, um, it was very daring for its time because at one [00:07:00] point you had a blackout on the screen and then, um, gradually this, This sort of circle appeared in the middle of it and we were actually looking at a baby coming out of a woman and it was right close up and personal and of course in those days, this was back in the sixties, um, that sort of thing was absolutely not done and um, as I say, people were being sick in the cinema and the um, Red Cross people were coming around [00:07:30] Trying to get people sorted. And what did, I did notice there were four women, um, older women, sitting in the front row of the dress circle, which is where our party was, and they were all knitting, the four of them, and they knitted all the way through this film. Um, and, you know, it was nothing to them, but all these school kids were being ill around the place. So what was the purpose of the film? Was it like to [00:08:00] turn people off sex? No, it was supposed to be a sex education film, but all you saw was some grunting. Um, the male and female stars were, uh, not very good actors. And, um, there was all this grunting and then the woman was next seen wandering around with a huge makeshift baby on her tummy and complaining about backache. And, um It was rather, um, all the [00:08:30] bad things that, um, about pregnancy and, and, yeah, um, but that was a definite event, um, in the 60s and I can't remember who brought it over and it was meant to be sex education for school kids by the look of it, um, instead of which I think it turned a lot of us off for life. Just thinking about that, that, that same time period, and I wonder, what was the first kind of, uh, time you heard the word lesbian in New [00:09:00] Zealand? Well, um, I was not a very sexual creature about trans people. In relation to myself, I tend to live in my head. Um, I was shut down emotionally for a lot of reasons which I won't go into. Um, I found one book until I left New Zealand in, when I was just turned 21 to go overseas to the Royal Academy of Music in London. And um, Um, I, I think it was a Valerie Taylor book and it [00:09:30] might have been in a table in Roy Parsons um, down on the quay there and I think it was a Valerie Taylor and it had something like Journey to Lesbos or a title like that and that was the only thing I saw. And when it came to gay people, I knew a lot of gay guys. But, um, I was sort of like a mirror to the gay guys. They were preening and getting off with each other. And, um, we, theoretically straight [00:10:00] girls, Um, were there because we liked their personalities. They weren't going to put the make on us. And, um, I was sort of acting as a mirror a lot of the time in those early days. Um, so the guys could say, Oh, what do you think I, do I look great in this? And, um, And I wasn't really aware of myself. Um, theoretically I came out in 1968, Um, when I must have been 19. I was more [00:10:30] into my career at the time, which was music and, um, yeah, that's how I met a lot of people. I had a very protected, in some ways, upbringing out in Lower Hutt and, uh, um, I didn't dare go into town to bars like the Castro or anything like that because I was scared, rigid, that I'd get done to, um, because my. Parents didn't want their little girl to be in that unwholesome society. [00:11:00] They were professional people and, uh, that wasn't in their social code. So I kept very, very quiet. And only when I went to London did I let rip a bit. What was that bar you mentioned? Where was that? The Castro. I think it was one of Carmen's. She ran things like the balcony. And, um, That was where a lot of gay people went, and, um, apparently, um, it, um, it [00:11:30] was more a sort of working class environment, and my parents were very middle class, and, um, I didn't know which end was up, so, I was too afraid to go and explore. Well, coming out in the late 60s, I mean, that was right around the time of things like Stonewall, where we had all the gay liberation movement coming up, and that would have been a huge amount of things in the newspaper, I imagine. Uh, yes, it [00:12:00] was mentioned. Yes, but really until I went to London in 1970, I didn't really get into the scene at all. I mean, I was afraid to to even have anything in the house, you know, so Yes, I got into all of that. In fact, I was one of the founder members of the British version of the Gay Liberation Front. Um, There was a meeting of about 25 people and, um, and then it moved to the [00:12:30] London School of Economics in 1971 and I went to those meetings, um, and then, um, as you do after a while, um, uh, I was mixing with straight people through music and I did and try and see if I, um, would get on well with boyfriends and I got on really well with them as people, um, but it really wasn't my scene and the social mores were really not me and so I [00:13:00] ended up getting heavily into the gay scene. They had a lot of gay boyfriends then too, I mean just friends, you know, and um, and I unfortunately got in with a really rough crowd when I first started in London and And, um, um, I think they were truck converters, a group of lesbians living together in a house, and they were truck converters and pretty rough folk, and they got into fights, and, and, um, uh, I was mad for one of them, but, um, it [00:13:30] really wasn't a scene that was destined to work out for me. But in those times, there was a lot of disco happening, and, um, um, I love disco music and I love dancing, and the really good places to dance were gay discos, and the gay boys used to take me around and push me at other lesbians because I was too shy. And, um, um, but there were some good times had by all, and the strange thing was that in those days, um, I [00:14:00] actually looked a character called Tadzio, who was in the film Saturacon, put out by Fellini in 1970, I think, and I was a dead ringer for Tadzio. So when I went into basically gay male discos, all these heads would whip up and they'd all stare at me and they'd get hugely disappointed when I turned out to be a woman. But it was great dancing times. It was really good. Yeah. So that [00:14:30] would have been a, um, an amazing time to be in the UK at the time of gay liberation. It most definitely was. Um, uh, AIDS hadn't really raised its head then. And it was the tail end of the swinging 60s, the 70s, and people were still dressing up. And, and, um, my gay male friends would invite people over. Strangers off the street to party, and, and, uh, it was very wild and free. The [00:15:00] only thing in, um, I was friends more with gay guys, by sheer accident, um, than with a lot of lesbian women, um, who didn't like my accent. And, um, um, the gay guys would shut off, Um, the lights at 11am and I had to go home and while they went on and partied. Um, and speaking of that Satyricon movie, the guy that played the blonde lead, is it Martin Potter, the actor? [00:15:30] Um, he had a party and, um, They almost took me with them, but then decided not to. And I wouldn't have been very happy anyway with gay bodies all over the place. But it was a really good time and um, My gay friends would take me down to Hyde Park Corner and there was a forest there and you'd see all, you'd see the lights of the traffic in um, on the road, and you'd see all these silhouettes of [00:16:00] gay men leaping around the trees and having sex on the grass and great times. So around that time, were you beginning to collect more and more press clippings? Yes, we better get back to the clippings, haven't we? Um, in those days, I just collected, um, the very odd, occasional clipping that there was in the print media. My clippings are really from print media. Lilac [00:16:30] does the collecting of lesbian sources, and I do the rest, which is straight print media, sometimes gay, like, um, gay, gay Express or your, your ex. And, um. Uh, yeah, so mine tend to be print rather than online, um, now. Things have changed a lot. Um, and I didn't really take the clippings as, the collection aspect of it seriously until earlier this century actually, about 20 something years ago. And, um, I [00:17:00] was trying, I was a member of the Lilac Collective, um, and I was trying to get them to take it seriously, um, that clippings would be really, really good. Um, and they weren't interested for years, and then finally I thought, oh, sod this, I'll do it myself. And so I went ahead and did it, and um, the first exhibition I did was not actually of clippings, it was of a lot of retro cards, lesbian cards that I had, big selection, and um, they really [00:17:30] liked it. And I went around and talked about them. And then, um, the next exhibition was a couple of years ago, and that was a Clippings exhibition. And that was from 1983 to 2013. Um, And people really seem to like me wandering around my clippings and off the top of my head telling them what they're all about or the context or, and, and also I'm interested in how the print media through the [00:18:00] ages has actually viewed lesbians and the perception of their articles. Um, so back in the, um, Um, the one I've got on the wall is 1994 to 2024, um, which is the time that Lilac's been open and things have really changed perceptions of lesbians in the print and out of the print. Um, and I've used the clippings as a sort of mirror. Um, as to how [00:18:30] things have changed. Um, I have to say at this point, I'm not a professional archivist. I suspect that, um, archivists seeing how I store things would, would have a fit. Um, it has been suggested that That there are certain types of storage, uh, materials, um, but to me it's just always been fun and, um, interesting, very interesting, um, and, uh, so I've just put them in plastic, hopefully acid [00:19:00] free, um, folders, and, um, the newspaper prints are beginning to yellow, um, and I'd love somebody to help me with this, but nobody wants to, so I'm just carrying on merrily doing it. What, what is the process that you go through for clippings, like how, how, how, how do you clip? Um, as you'd think, I might read a magazine in the doctor's waiting room or something like that, and I will, um, [00:19:30] if it's got an article that I think would go really well in the clippings collection, um, I will ask the people at the desk if I could have the and they usually say yes. Um, and so I'll take it, clip out the article. Um, And then put it in big purple, uh, ring binders I've got here in plastic flaps, um, about, uh, they're chronologically ordered, um, that seems to be the main [00:20:00] way I can do things. And basically it's, it's, I've had to make decisions about whether I include, um, trans women who identify as lesbian or not. And. I've always had this very strong perception of what a lesbian is and so I've gone with that in the clippings all these years and um, I've lived long enough to have seen that history tends to repeat itself and [00:20:30] so after say you got queer politics in Britain in um, the 80s. Um, after that, you know, the, the men, women all joined forces and it was all hunky dory, but then women tend to separate off again when that happens because the guys naturally dominate, they're taller and they talk more, and they've also got a line into um, It's useful for them to be a part of the [00:21:00] social mores of the time. For lesbians who are trying to get away from a male construct of femininity, it's really not in their best interests, in some ways, to do that. to, um, do queer politics, but, I mean, look, uh, this is very much off the top of my head, um, but I've, I've seen things happen. You get a lot of gender, um, uh, discussions, [00:21:30] and, uh, things tend to go around in circles in about 30 years. So you start off with separation, then it joins together, then they separate off again, and so on. And I think at the present time, there's a bit of a separation for lesbians going on. Um, and that's come into this exhibition on the walls behind me, actually. Yeah. Should we go through the exhibition and just see some of the amazing clippings that are here?[00:22:00] Okay, well this particular section of wall is 1994 through to about 2000 and a bit. Um, I've got date headings on. Um, it's 1994 to 99 and my perception of the 90s in New Zealand was party time. Um, there were lots of social groups forming all the time and lots of events. There are lots of lesbian ball events. Um, posters [00:22:30] here. There are lots of photographs of hundreds of lesbians dancing in the old town hall and, um, various other places. And, um, there was a sense that lesbians knew who they were and it was a sense of group identity, um, socially. Um, and so this wall is all about, um, it's got calendars in it, um, I could have done an exhibition based purely on local stuff, but I, I thought it would be more of a celebration of what [00:23:00] we were reading and looking, seeing and so on. And I've got, um, things, it starts with, uh, prospectuses for women's studies, um, Which used to be Happen, but now is no longer, and you've got Deneuve, which is an actual lesbian magazine, which changed into Curve. Um, which it now still is. And um, uh, these are all to be taken out of their folders and read, so you can look at the pictures, whatever. There are various photographs of groups on the walls. [00:23:30] Um, Locally, you've got, um, posters and pics of an anti alcohol and addiction group, Lesbians. Um, you've got calendars, you've got an Alison Bechdel calendar there as an example of the genre. In 1997. four or five, there was, um, 1996, there was a Girls on Girls, um, which was a lesbian cabaret, which was held in, um, what was the [00:24:00] depot, which is now Takirua, and that was music and song and writings, all with photographs, all done, um, by local lesbians, like Loray Parry and, um, um, Cathy Sheet and I was playing music for it and singing in some places and so on. You've got other things like the New Zealand Women's Circus, which was not strictly a women's circus at Aotearoa. It wasn't strictly [00:24:30] lesbian, but my gosh, it had a hell of a lot of lesbians in it. And also things like the trade union choir that Helen Clark was so fond of, which was, um, it's got a few photographs with it. Um, it was a trade union women's choir. And I was, I conducted them for three years, and we did a CD of union songs and some compositions from the members, and Helen Clark loved it, and she loved our choir, so she actually launched that CD at [00:25:00] Parliament, and there's some photographs there. What, what gets me about, um, what we're seeing on this wall is that it's, it's all about visibility. I mean, these are very, um, outward looking, um, uh, events, aren't they? They're right in your face events. They were wonderful actually. Now the, the print media. was still, um, rambling on about, especially about, um, Hollywood celebrities [00:25:30] and pop stars, um, from Britain and America. And this is a classic article, Fergie Tells Drugs, Guns and Lesbian Romps. Um, there are some newspaper articles. I've got a lot of material and it was really hard to choose what went up on the wall. Because in an exhibition it's got to be partly visual. Um, but there was so much print material as well. And I've also put out quite a bit in [00:26:00] previous exhibitions, so. It's a mixture, as I say, of local and overseas. Now, another overseas is Lucy Lawless, and there's a pack of dykes there dressed in Lucy Lawless costumes. Um, Alison Bechtel, who visited Lilac, actually, um, I've put a calendar there. She was a big influence on people like me, um, who was sometimes isolated, um, through work or through geography. [00:26:30] Um, and I loved reading her books, her, her, um, cartoons, but, um, because, um, she's such a good writer, you know, and she had a really good look at lesbian life through the, you know, How do you think, I mean, so we're looking between, in the 1990s at the moment, but how do you think, um, or could you just describe what, uh, lesbian visibility was like in the 80s? Well, I [00:27:00] was, um, I'd come back from Britain, and it seemed like it was stepping 60 years back in time, because, um, what, um, Um, we went through in the 70s in Britain, was, um, a bit of the flannel shirt stuff. Um, and then, when I came back to New Zealand, um, the lesbian police were out in full force. And, um, I used to play in the NZSO, and, um, I'd be in my Christian Dior, and I'd come along to, [00:27:30] uh, Community Hall, where there was a, woman's dance, or a lesbian dance, and um, I still had makeup on, because your face disappears on the stage if you don't wear makeup, and I still had my Christian Dior on. Well look, it was like I'd dropped out of planet Mars, and I used to get challenged by some really heavy duty lesbian police at the door, who really saw me as not being, um, a lesbian at all, and um, also I talked different, and um, I had training in speech and [00:28:00] drama. And was actually, um, as well as a professional musician, I did a bit of acting till, um, I was in my 40s. And, um, um, so back in those early dance days, um, they were, uh, I just was from planet Mars, you know, somewhere else. And, um, it was very, very difficult for me, and it wasn't until the 90s when I actually got to be really friendly with people, and they accepted people with more differences, like, um, [00:28:30] lipstick lesbians were a no no back in the 80s when I arrived here, but, um, People were letting lesbians in that wore skirts, for goodness sake, and wore lippy, you know. And, um, but things have changed very much. Um, Ellen DeGeneres came out, And, um, I've, this is 2008, her wedding was 2008, so we're into 2000 to 2009. Um, [00:29:00] I've got pictures of the drag kings, um, and Martina. There were all these famous people o overseas and locally who were terrific. And there were some really interesting stories like Patrice, uh, Patricia Cornwall, who wrote the case Scarpetta novels. Um, she had an affair with. The wife of the director of the, um, FBI and, um, he went absolutely crazy, um, tried to [00:29:30] kill his wife and, and I've got stories like this which are fascinating, you know, and also some historical, um, cards here, um, the fun cards that we used to have, um, How would you categorize going from the 1990s through to the 2000s? What's changed? Well, up to 2009 you still got parties and groups forming, um, but they were slightly curtailed in numbers. [00:30:00] Um, but it was really, um, sort of after that period. Um, when, you, you did, in, in the television media, you got things like bad girls. Um, but then, um, when, 2010 to say 2020, um, I've got written here and, um, The identity of lesbians as a group, lesbians, gradually fades as terminology [00:30:30] changes and gender fluidity takes over. Um, but in the meantime the straight presses were still big on lesbian celebrity scandal. Um, But it was, in the 90s, the press saw lesbians as decadent, um, and, you know, they were not totally acceptable. They got slightly more acceptable, um, from about 20, through the 20s, you know, the, the teens of the, [00:31:00] this, uh, century. Um, I've got here also, the lesbian magazines were still going out to the western world, uh, but the numbers are decreasing. And lesbians, um, Are harder and harder to spot in the gay presses or at gay events. Um, what else is happening here? Oh, we're getting more, uh, gossip on, um, Kirsten Stewart, the Twilight actress and all her different girlfriends. We're getting more prison, um, series like Wentworth and, [00:31:30] um, Orange is the new black and I've got posters here for book group here in Lilac and uh that's Jenny Winterton, bending genders and genre. There's a lot here actually. Um, moving over to this, this is sort of late 20s and um, up until now. Um, I've got a comparison, a couple of articles on Ruby Rose, the Australian actress. [00:32:00] Um, and there she's doing Cheesecake Pose, because that's what she was told to do. And, but she's really a, And there she is playing, um, or skateboarding or something with, um, her fiancé. And next to that I've got a lovely article on New Zealand Life and Leisure, which is a pair of really rich lesbians in their most gorgeous, um, house in the country. It's, oh, it's just fabulous. And I've collected quite a few of those articles in, um, [00:32:30] where two women go out into the country and make a really lovely home. They're nice to read. And I've got things from the, um, local news like the Fringe Festival from the Wellington Regional News and, um, this is mixed in with, um, when Melissa Etheridge came to Christchurch and all the dykes there and, um, We've got Shortland Street, the gay stuff in Shortland, the lesbian stuff in Shortland Street. And then, um, [00:33:00] marriage equality, when it was finally legal to get married, that had a huge impact on how lesbians were seen in the press, um, It almost got to a stage where the lesbian part wasn't mentioned, or if it was, nobody cared. And that's still the case, because they're legally allowed to get married. So, there has been a difference in how the press has treated things. [00:33:30] I mean, it's gone from scandal, um, and perhaps not social acceptance to very much part of the mainstream, in many cases, and, um, no, you can give a damn, you know. And here's an article, um, on Holland Taylor and her, um, film star girlfriend, uh, partner, and, um, there's a 30 year age gap there, and for the, the press, it was not the fact that they were a lesbian couple, it was the 30 year age gap. Which really went [00:34:00] wild in the press. Um, you've now got a lot more in the TV line. Um, in the Vigil series, which has been on recently. Um, you've got two women playing a lesbian couple in a Whodunit series. And then there's the other series, um, on the local, uh, lesbians who have babies. And it's more about the babies really and how they react. Um, that series is called. Double parked. Yes, [00:34:30] that's been on recently. And you were saying that you're primarily Clipping things from mainstream media rather than kind of, um, queer publications. It's been a real mixture because my mum was a bit of a hoarder of magazines. And I started seriously clipping from Realite, um, French magazines which were in English. Um, and they had very androgynous [00:35:00] women and, um, advertising which dealt with women in, who looked like a couple, and that was really rare in those days. Um, and, uh, from these magazines, Mum had a lot of other magazines, and I'd come to, um, collect a lot of magazines, and I clipped any lesbian articles in them I could see. Um, and really, um, It's random. I've got to say my clipping collection is random. So if I suddenly read a [00:35:30] lot of your exes in one year, you're likely to get the few lesbian articles they have in that magazine um, um, more dominating, um, in terms of numbers. Uh, it could be the New Zealand Women's Weekly another year. It could be TV Guide another year. Uh, it just, it, It's very, very random, um, but again, it's what a sort of lay person might read, you know. And you were saying earlier just about [00:36:00] how you can see the, uh, the, the kind of cyclic nature of, of history and it goes from, you know, uh, combining to separatism, to combining. Like, what do you think? Come over to the last wall of this exhibition. And believe me, I haven't said a lot of what's on, um, the wall. And there's so much I've got in my, the rest of the collection. This wall here is the tail end of the exhibition. Um, this is the slightly more [00:36:30] controversial wall. Um, I've got an article here which was in a green magazine, Te Awa, by Jill Abigail. And what has happened is that, um, anybody who's, um, a lesbian feminist who, um, doesn't want trans women in their space, um, has gotten shut up. In terms of free speech. [00:37:00] And I think some feminist women who are not lesbians have had the same thing happen. I think there have been premises burnt down because the books of Mary Daly have been found in them. Um, and it's a very difficult, um, situation. Um, at the moment for lesbians, I think, around the Western world, lesbians are being less and less a part of, um, gay, um, the overall gay society, I [00:37:30] suppose you'd call it. Um, I like to see things where you've got this label gay, and then underneath gay, you've got Somebody, like a bisexual, um, place, you've got a trans woman place, you've got a trans men place, you've got a lesbian separatist place, you've got a feminist woman space, you've got gay men space, you've got drag queens, and I like to see them all having their own pad under the same roof, but that's not really [00:38:00] what's happening with lesbians at the moment, especially in the, in the, uh, Um, and so I'm trying to document all this in my print exhibitions. Um, yeah. One other big thing that has changed is, uh, the, the, the rise of digital media. So, like, the, the reduction in, kind of, things that are printed. physically printed to what's online. How has, how has that affected your clippings? Well, some [00:38:30] people do print out stuff. I've been known to print out the odd thing, but I've always stressed it's come from online. Um, I tend to do more the print media than online because online is a whole different ball game. Um, I mean you could get somebody doing that all on its own. Um, a lot of the younger lesbians, um, it's been strange. Over the last ten years you've got a lot of younger lesbians who wouldn't be seen dead calling themselves lesbian. [00:39:00] Um, that's really old hat and, and, you know, they don't want to be pinned down to any label. It's sort of very fluid. Um, But then, we've recently seen in Lilac, we've got younger people, younger women coming in, who actually don't want to be, um, a part of the mainstream LGB, TQI, um, they're actually wanting to get away and have their own space, and quite a few of those groups are actually online. They meet online, [00:39:30] and um, Um, a couple have just discovered Lilac, which is a space. And, um, Lilac is a lending library. Um, it has occasionally, um, seen social events. Um, like quiz nights and, um, Um, book groups and, um, various other things happening. We've been so lucky to have Val McDermott, um, coming in here and talking to us. And people like Alison Bechtel and there are, [00:40:00] um, other local authors and, um, yeah, it's just a safe place for them. Uh, yeah. And just looking to the future for your amazing clippings, what do you think will happen with that huge archive? Place it. If I die, it'll just be here in lilac. It's all those purple books over there. [00:40:30] Um, I have thought of contacting the Charlotte Museum up in Auckland. And I have talked to Roger Swanson about Legans. Um, and Linda Evans. And, um, Uh, I'm not sure what will happen to them, actually, uh, but, um, I normally keep half of them at my place and half of them here at Lilac, just in case of any violence, um, or the building catching on fire or something. There are a lot of [00:41:00] different groups in here, from security to lawyers to all sorts of people. Um, Just so that at least we've got some of it if, if, um, the building goes down or an earthquake happens or something like that. Um, so I would probably in my will, um, which needs revamping, I might, um, leave it to, um, either LILAC, LAGANZ.

IRN: 6111
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/lilac_30th_birthday_history_of_lilac_part_2.html
ATL REF: 
ATL URL: 
TITLE: The history of LILAC - part 2
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ellen Faed
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1990s; Alison Laurie; Aotearoa New Zealand; Armstrong and Arthur Charitable Trust for Lesbians; DVD; Ellen Faed; Janet Campbell; Lesbian Community Radio Programme; Lesbian Information, Library and Archives Centre (LILAC); Lesbian Line (Wellington); Linda Evans; St Andrew's on the Terrace; The L Word (tv); Wellington; Wellington Buddhist Centre; Young Women's Christian Association (YWCA); books; lesbian; lilac. lesbian. net. nz
DATE: 18 October 2024
YEAR: 2024
LOCATION: Lesbian Information, Library and Archives Centre (LILAC), Second floor, 187 Willis Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: October 2024
TEXT: As we all know this is the, we're celebrating the 30th anniversary of LILAC's opening and I spoke last month about the 10 months of planning and preparation that went into it all after a notice went out on Lesbian Radio in October 93, Linda Evans, and calling a meeting in the YWCA and we voted yes and got on with it for 10 months. Fundraising, getting books and cataloguing them and getting shelving and [00:00:30] creating a And incorporated society and all the rules and what we do. And, of course we couldn't pay market rents and Janet Campbell offered us a temporary solution and little did she know we were in her counselling room when she was setting up at 17 the terrace with bookshelves along the walls and covered with curtains when she was using it as the counselling room. So we opened on the 17th of September with about 400 books and [00:01:00] dozens of women came in on the first day, joined up. But there were a few interesting problems with Janet's room. It was an office building so the street door was locked when we were open on Wednesday evenings and Saturdays. Janet eventually got a buzzer installed so that then someone could go screaming down six flights of stairs or down in the lift to let the women in. And Janet had two sets of [00:01:30] keys for the room. She kept one set, and the other set was put in a pouch for everyone on the roster. And so it was past the pouch, across town and up the, and out in the suburbs. And we couldn't advertise our address because Janet was doing counselling for women who were rape victims and victims of violence, so she could not have her address known. But the rent was nominal, like [00:02:00] 75 a month. Um, and then in 2002 the building was going to be converted to apartments, so the new owners paid for us to move up the road to to Janet's new room, which was in Mason's Lane, which runs between the Terrace and Lambton Quay. So there was no disabled access. But we had it on the same principle. And then in December 2004, when Janet decided to pack in her [00:02:30] counselling room, we were homeless again. And didn't have a clue where to go next, so we packed up everything and parked it all in Katherine Johnson's garage round in Lyall Bay. Until Alison Lorry, the late Alison Lorry, um, suggested trying St Andrews on the terrace because they had a big building behind which was a hall and had lots of rooms and maybe they would have a room we could rent. And in fact they had two tiny rooms. So, [00:03:00] we, we rented them and we had the, the main room and then the low, another, the second room for low use books. But we couldn't hold collective meetings in the room, it was too small. So we had to go out into the lobby and sit on the, um, chairs and sofas there and carry out our one or two chairs. And, and then St Andrews had money to redevelop the building, so we were out. at the end of 2009, but we'd found a sublet in the Buddhist Centre in Kent [00:03:30] Terrace. And by this stage we were getting rather good at packing up and moving and setting up again. And when the Buddhist Centre's lease ran out at the end of 2012, we found this room and opened here in January 2013. And it's our best room. We can actually hold events here. Laughter. And, throughout the time, publicity has been important for attracting members. We had [00:04:00] regular articles in the Wellington Lesbian Newsletter until it folded. Notices and programs on lesbian radio until it morphed into something else. The Wellington Lesbian webpage from November 1995, and I've brought the archive in and you can look at the very first webpage. And all its horror. And when we couldn't give out the address, women had to phone the [00:04:30] lesbian line. Um, until the end of 2005 when we, uh, well, until we set up in, at St Andrews. Then we could advertise our address. So that was the way things had to be done then. And what did we have in our collections? Well, we opened with about 400 books and now we've got over 2, 800 magazines, lots of donated back issues of lesbian newsletters from around [00:05:00] the country and we had subscriptions until they all folded. And glossy magazines, there were three from overseas, Lottle from Sydney and Deva from London and Deneuve, later called Curve. When a certain actress complained about the title, um, from the States. But the, uh, Curve and Lottle are now just online, but we still get Diva. [00:05:30] We had videos from November 95. Until sometime in 2013 when they left the building and somebody forgot to tell the cataloger to take the videos webpage off the website. Um, we had DVDs from July 2005 Once we got the L word DVDs, they were very popular. Women would come into our room and sit at Andrews. The DVDs were opposite the door. They would go over, grab the next one they wanted to borrow, and, because they could only have one DVD at a [00:06:00] time, and then come to the desk and, and return the previous one and take out the new one. Um, we've had a website from 2000. Initially that was hosted on Wellington Community Net, so it was lilac. wellington. net. nz and then the City Council stopped the Wellington Community Net. Um, and it became, we went on to lilac. lesbian. net. nz. [00:06:30] And I get to manage the lesbian. net. nz, uh, domain. We had a primitive searchable catalogue from 2001. Library, our library thing improved, searchable, 2010 and now we've got TinyCat, which you can search on your phone to see what we've got. Go to the LILAC webpage on your phone, website, and you'll [00:07:00] see the link to search, and you can do it when you're in here and see what we've got, buy an author you're interested in, or if we've got something, we can't tell you if it's going to be on the shelf or if it'll be out, but, use it, use it. And now that we've got this fabulous room, we can have all sorts of groups and events using it, and we're trying to turn it into a lesbian community centre. We've had book group on and off for about 12 years. We've had book launches and guest speakers. [00:07:30] Social events. Speed dating to a couple of times. Art exhibitions. Coming out meet ups. Once a month now. And quiz nights, and there's one next month. The quiz nights are lots of fun and they're also fundraisers. We need fundraisers because our patron saints, the Armstrong and Arthur Trust, can't cover all the rent we've got to, and the subs don't either, so we need fundraisers. [00:08:00] And we're open to suggestions and help organizing. So, That's a quick trip down memory lane. Thank you.

IRN: 3928
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/daniel_fielding_13_may_1989.html
ATL REF: 
ATL URL: 
TITLE: Daniel Fielding
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Daniel Fielding; Peter Duncan
INTERVIEWER: Peter Duncan
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; AZT; And the Band Played On: Politics, People, and the AIDS Epidemic (book); Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Berlin; Broadcasting House; Daniel Fielding; Gay BC (Wellington Access Radio); Gay-Related Immune Deficiency (GRID); HIV / AIDS; HIV / AIDS; HIV education; HIV testing and prevention; Health department; London; NZAF Ā whina Centre (original site); National Council on AIDS; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); People with AIDS Collective; Peter Duncan; Pneumocystis pneumonia (PCP); Randy Shilts; San Francisco; Typhoid vaccine; Ward 26 - Wellington Regional Hospital; Wellington; Wellington Access Radio; Wellington Regional Hospital; acupuncture; antiretroviral drugs; direct action; gay; glands; gloves; gown; hospital; intravenous vitamin C; kaposi's sarcoma; mask; massage therapy; meditation; ozone therapy; patient zero; peer support; poppers; public health; rebirthing; support; syphilis; visualisation
DATE: 13 May 1989
YEAR: 1989
LOCATION: Broadcasting House, cnr Bowen and Museum Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: October 2024
TEXT: Hello and welcome to Gay BC. In today's program, we have part one of a two part interview with Daniel Fielding, um, Um, he's from the People with AIDS Collective. And also we have the usual announcements and what's happening tonight and all over the place for the next few weeks. The 1970s heralded the explosion of gay liberation. Acceptance by the public of everything gay was becoming a reality. Suddenly in [00:01:00] the early 80s, a frightening disease appeared in the gay community. Soon to be labelled AIDS, it caused hysteria and front page after front page headlines appeared in the newspapers around the world. Gay culture was devastated. What was so bravely fought for decades before seemed almost lost. Years later, we are slowly piecing together the jigsaw puzzle. We have lost far too many brothers along the [00:01:30] way, and once again we have to put up with front page scandals and governments spending money on everything else but what we want them to spend it on. I spoke to Daniel Fielding of the People with AIDS Collective about the current situation with AIDS and looked at what was happening locally and overseas and the changes that have happened over the past few years. What I'd like to start off with is going right back to when AIDS appeared [00:02:00] in the gay community. Um, it appeared as a disease, I think, called the, um, gay related immuno, immune deficiency um, syndrome. It was all very nebulous at the time. Could you possibly just tell us a bit about What your feelings at the time were, and what happened at the time when you were diagnosed? I remember back in 1982 or 83, when I was living in Australia, and [00:02:30] that was when we first began to hear about this thing called GRID. Um, And it was affecting the gay community in America very, very badly. But, somehow, nobody seemed to think that it would ever make it down to this end of the world, and, uh, everybody assumed that it was just something that was going to affect the Americans. Uh, when I came back to New Zealand in 1983, um, We began to hear a little more about it, and they changed the name, of course, from grid to [00:03:00] AIDS. Um, and in 1984, my lover and I went for our tests to see if we had the virus. Um, I must say we had no idea what we were letting ourselves in for at that stage. Right. What sort of, um, symptoms and that did you have in the, at that time? That, uh, was it just fear that made you go? Get tested. Yeah, we had none of that. We neither of us had any symptoms at that time except slightly swollen [00:03:30] glands, right? and I mean they they weren't bothering us at all, but we I had lived overseas for some time and my lover had traveled overseas on quite a number of occasions and Basically, we felt that we should know our antibody status and find out whether we'd been in contact with the virus What was your reaction when you Discovered that you were positive, there was still sort of a whole lot of things in the media as to what was going to [00:04:00] happen, and all the hysteria surrounding it, so what did you actually feel at the time? Initially the reaction was pretty horrendous, and that's, as I said, I didn't know what we were letting ourselves in for. Um, well, To us, we, we'd had no counselling whatsoever at that stage. Um, we were just tested. We, we asked the doctor for a test and he gave it to us. Um, he delivered the results to me over the phone. And, um, suddenly I realised that, that what had been delivered to me could well have been a death [00:04:30] sentence. Because that's how the media was presenting it at that time. If you had the antibodies, then you had AIDS. And if you had AIDS, you died. Did you know anybody else that had, uh, been diagnosed at the time besides your lover? Not at the time. Um, our, uh, blood actually went through with a batch of, um, people from Auckland who we knew. And, um, myself and my lover were the only ones to come back positive. [00:05:00] And so we were, that, that set us apart a little. Right. Were there many support groups around at the time? No, there was only one. Um, a doctor here in Wellington had a large number of gay patients. Um, and a number of them he had suggested that they be tested, and they had returned positive tests. When, we, we didn't get our tests done through him, but we let him know that we were there. That we had [00:05:30] received a positive result and he suggested that we join a group of guys that he had meeting together on a monthly basis. How did you find that group, the interaction with them? Oh, invaluable. Invaluable. We couldn't have survived as long as we did without some sort of support around us. Just the fact of being able to go along and talk to a group of guys who were going through very much the same things as we were. That was That really helped a lot. Often the meetings, they [00:06:00] certainly weren't heavy support meetings by any means. Um, it was really just a chance to get together for a chat and a cup of tea. But, they were good. For their time, they were good. At the time, of course, theories relating to what caused AIDS Um, was pretty sort of up in the air. We've sort of come now to look at a few areas which I think may be helpful in finding a, uh, a cure eventually. But, um, certain areas I thought we'd look at maybe was [00:06:30] things like being in the media such as syphilis being a cause. Do, do you wanna sort of say something about that, possibly your feelings? There is, there is a theory that, um, AIDS is syphilis in another form. Um, and I think it's, it's very interesting that recently they've had some success treating people with aids, with, um, the typhoid vaccine. Um, that in fact they've pulled some people back right from the. death. And the very interesting thing that relates to syphilis there is that prior to treatment with [00:07:00] typhoid vaccine, the people all proved negative for syphilis tests. But after, uh, treatment with that vaccine, they became positive to syphilis tests. And the theory about syphilis is that it is in an undetectable form, that it's been around in our society, um, under treated and sort of just under the surface for many, many years. And AIDS is the form that it's taking now. It was thought back then that That AIDS sort of took a few years possibly to develop, they're now looking at possibly 10 to 20 [00:07:30] years. Is that what's in the media at the moment? The quoted figures are 7 to 10 years. The San Francisco Department of Public Health has published that as their figures, and I don't know. Not sure that they know for sure, but, um, that's probably about the best guess that anyone can make at the moment. The whole, um, story of patient zero in the book, um, Gay and gay guys, yes. Um, what do you feel about that? Do you [00:08:00] think there was a patient zero? Or do you think AIDS is actually sort of stretched right back into the 70s before? I think the story of Patient Zero was a very cruel thing for that man to write. Um, uh, even if there was one person, uh, who started it all, and God knows if there was or not, um, I'm sure that, That it was not spread in the manner that it was made out to be, and, and the band played on. Um, AIDS has, they have [00:08:30] theoretically found cases of AIDS going back into the 70s. So the, the theory of one gay man spreading it through gay bathhouses in the early 80s, I'm afraid doesn't quite ring true for me. Daniel, there's also a mention of, um, poppers as well being a cause. That was a very, very long time ago, and I, as much as I believe poppers are certainly not good for you at all, I don't believe they are the cure, the cause of AIDS, um, there is still a question mark over whether there is a relationship [00:09:00] between them and Kaposi sarcoma, um, the cancer that affects some people with AIDS. Could we just go on to say, um, New Zealand at the moment, the statistics that we're dealing with, in terms of HIV positive people and cases of AIDS. Up until early April, there had been 124 cases of AIDS notified to the health department and 424 positive tests. They do believe, however, that this is only the tip of the [00:09:30] iceberg. Considerable numbers of people have not been tested within the gay community. And Looking at statistics from overseas, they believe that this may be, um, at least three if not six times understated. So we could be looking at anything up to about 3, 000 people, um, who are positive in New Zealand at the moment. This is sort of leading up to the question of testing. Initially, the whole feeling was that people [00:10:00] shouldn't be tested, if they didn't want to be, um, and people feel now that in fact it's a good idea to get tested. Um, can you elaborate a bit more on that? Uh, back in the 1980s, early 1980s, um, when people found out that we were positive, it almost made one into an oracle. And suddenly people were saying, well, should I get the test? And I'm afraid I was never able to answer that. And one of the [00:10:30] few things I could say to them is, why do you want to? And, um, if you really want to, what do you think you're going to do when you're told you're positive? Because there was nothing people could do. There was very, very little, there were no treatments available at that stage that were, um, known of really at all. Um, even AZT didn't come along until 86. So, um, now though, um, I would tend to, um, I think yes. My advice to gay men actually [00:11:00] would be that they should go and get tested for two reasons. Um, one, the major killer of people with AIDS is pneumocystis pneumonia and it's preventable. It is definitely preventable, but before you can prevent it, you have to know that you're at risk and therefore you have to know whether you're antibody positive or negative. The second reason is that there are beginning to be treatments available for people with AIDS, but. They are finding that the earlier they are used, the better. It's no use waiting until you get sick. [00:11:30] You've got to get into them at the stage I'm at now before things get too bad. And so, for those reasons, I would say to gay men that it's worth their while to know their antibody status. Currently, the therapies that are offered, there's numerous, um, amounts of sort of drugs and that we see all over the press, um, different things being investigated and released. Of course the most important one is A Z T. Do you want to just maybe tell us a bit about the types of treatments [00:12:00] that are around, the most important ones, and your feelings about those? Okay, obviously the most important drug is AZT. Uh, it was approved for use in New Zealand some time ago and was fast tracked by the health department because they felt it was the only thing that they could offer. Unfortunately, as time goes on, they find that that particular drug has quite toxic side effects. Um, and that people, a number of people who go on to it at the beginning, [00:12:30] are unable to cope with the side effects immediately. They just, they just cannot take the drug. Others who, um, are on it for some considerable time, have to go off it after a while because sooner or later the side effects become too badly. Um, it tends to, uh, suppress bone marrow production. Um, but I must say that, uh, AZT is the only antiviral that's shown any promise at all. And so, um, it seems also [00:13:00] that this relates back to testing. It seems that AZT may work better in cases where the person has not become ill, rather than waiting until someone's ill before they take it. Um, in, um, New Zealand at the moment, what are the feelings amongst this medical profession in terms of starting AZT off? Um, do, is there any sort of consensus about when and what, when to use it? Um, the, um, Guidelines for use of AZT were just recently, uh, [00:13:30] expanded, so that, uh, before somebody progresses to AIDS, they can be put onto AZT if they fulfill a particular criteria. If their immune system falls below a certain level, and they have an accompanying, um, medical problem, like thrush or, um, um, shingles or anything like that, then It's expected that they probably will go on to get AIDS and therefore the medical profession is quite willing to put them on AZT at that point and try and [00:14:00] stop that progression. And I think that's very important. The sooner you can treat people with HIV, the less people with AIDS you're going to have around. Going on to other treatments that are available, things like ozone, um, and alternative treatments such as meditation, color therapy, um, relaxation, massage, things like that. How do you feel about all those areas? I believe they're very, very important and they're something that I never, um, thought that I [00:14:30] would, um, subscribe to. I, I came from a very conservative background, um, and my medical care has always been undertaken in quite a conservative way. But I believe that things like visualizations, um, are helpful at relieving stress. And one of the main, um, Things that seems to contribute to, um, people progressing from HIV onto AIDS is stress. So I'm interested in anything that can help cut down stress like massage or acupuncture or [00:15:00] visualizations. As far as things like ozone therapy or, um, intravenous vitamin C goes, um, I don't really have an opinion on them. I'm aware of them, uh, but I have not read anything that has convinced me enough to try them myself. The availability of all these sort of things they mentioned all over the place once again, um, how easy is it for people to actually, um, get them [00:15:30] to use them? The, as the situation stands in New Zealand at the moment, it's easy to get them if you have the money to do so. But things like that are not covered under the New Zealand drug tariff, so if you want a course of massage or you want to undertake a course in rebirthing or visualizations, you must pay for it yourself. Um, which to me is a little odd https: otter. ai Yet [00:16:00] they're willing to let, to not pay for those and allow people to get sick and then pay thousands and thousands of dollars a year to keep them on a ZT.[00:16:30] [00:17:00] The current feelings about, um, people developing aids, um. Initially was thought to be right back at 25 percent Um, going on to develop AIDS. The feeling now is that most people will eventually Go on to get full blown aids. Is this [00:17:30] true or what are the feelings about that? Now, I dunno whether it's true, but those are what the studies are saying. Um, I've seen studies from Berlin, uh, from London. from Paris and from San Francisco, uh, all of which, oh, and, uh, an Australian one as well, all of which tend to say that the figures of people that go on to get AIDS will be closer to 85 to 100 percent rather than the, the low [00:18:00] figures that they were quoting back in the early 80s. And, in fact, the San Francisco Department of Public Health has quite, uh, Blatantly stated that they have determined that between 65 and 100 percent of people will go on to get AIDS unless there is some sort of intervention. That intervention is what I was speaking about before, early treatments. Right. Just going on to the medical profession, your favorite topic, and the various AIDS groups that are [00:18:30] around. In the country at the moment, what I'd like to ask you first is, just with your interactions with general practitioners, um, the problems that you've encountered with them, and the types of things you'd like seen done or changed in their type of attitudes to people with HIV. I must preface my comments by saying that, um, having lived with HIV and with AIDS for, [00:19:00] um, five years now has given me an abiding respect for the medical profession, but at the same time, there are, um, some people within the profession, um, who, yes, we've had problems with. Um, people with AIDS, uh, are generally young, They're generally articulate, uh, they're generally fairly well off, and they're very, very generally gay men. Um, and they're men who are used to taking control of their own [00:19:30] lives, and they're not prepared to sit back and be told what to do. And a considerable number of doctors operate on that. Premise that they will tell their patients what to do and a number of them have had to actually rethink their whole way of dealing with their patients because suddenly they have young men who are getting quite ill who want to take a role in their own treatment. Going on to the whole area of hospitals, there have been a lot of [00:20:00] problems, um, right from the start. Few of them have been sorted out. Do you want to go into a bit about what has been happening there? Uh, there's been problems with hospitals right from the very beginning. Um, which is understandable. We've had no more problems here than they have overseas. Um, and I think everybody expected to have problems anyway. Um, in a number of hospitals around New Zealand, when the first cases of AIDS came along, they were insisting [00:20:30] that people wear gowns and gloves and masks when visiting people with AIDS, and it took considerable work by the New Zealand AIDS Foundation to persuade them that they didn't have to do that. Uh, recently, of course, uh, you may have seen in the Evening Post, the, the reports about Wellington Hospital still maintaining that people with AIDS and HIV had to plastic knives and forks. And the people with AIDS Collect have fought that for 16 months. Um, and it's actually [00:21:00] rather, it's great that we won in the end and that they finally believed us. But, um, it's interesting to note that finally after 16 months, they just turned around and said, yes, it was all a mistake. You were right in the first place. Who are the people you're actually fighting? Well, We're not actually fighting anyone, we're trying more than anything else to work with people. And I think that's why it took us 16 months, because rather than go and sit in their corridors with placards or run to the nearest newspaper, [00:21:30] we tried to go through the proper channels and approach it through the administration of the hospital, through the um, nursing superintendents and people like that. And it took a long, long time. Um, I believe that That more direct action will be necessary in future because I don't intend to see any situations like that last for 16 months again. What about their interaction with the medical staff, the doctors and nurses at the hospital? How have you found that? Excellent. Here [00:22:00] in Wellington, um, the staff of Ward 26 are wonderful. Um, I mentioned an abiding, um, respect for the medical profession in there right at the top of it. The nurses at Ward 26 are extremely kind. They're caring, they're well educated, and they're, they're really wonderful men and women. Um, the doctors there are great. Um, I really enjoy talking to them because they, um, again, they care for their patients and they know what they're talking [00:22:30] about. They know a lot about AIDS and that's a very big thing for people with AIDS because often GP who perhaps has. Only you as, as his one patient with HIV or his one patient with AIDS, you know more than he does. And it's good to be able to go to a hospital and talk to a doctor who knows a lot more than you do. Right. The setup at the moment with AIDS council, um, I'm just a bit sort of hazy on all those areas. Um, the health [00:23:00] department and that. Could you, would you know much about those, um, the make up of those, uh, groups? The major body in New Zealand at the moment is the National Council on AIDS. Um, that's a, a group of people from across the community, who, uh, set up By the health department, but are there to advise the Minister of Health on issues that she should know about concerning AIDS. The thing that they've been doing recently is [00:23:30] writing a discussion paper, which will be launched at the upcoming National AIDS Conference, and from there, submissions will be taken on that paper and it'll be turned into a national strategy. And what comes out in that national strategy, I believe, will be the direction that AIDS takes and AIDS services take in New Zealand over the next 5 and 10 years. In terms of preventive type of programs, things that are shown on TV, the adverts for prevention of [00:24:00] AIDS, uh, How do you feel that whole area has been handled? Um, not very well. The health department is spending a considerable amount of money, uh, educating, uh, People who are not currently at risk, the people currently at risk are gay men, and for the next five years, at least, the people at risk are going to stay gay men. And it seems to me, um, a problem. pointless exercise to pour [00:24:30] millions of dollars into educating what they term the general population when the real need for education is among the gay community. Right. Is anything actually being done about, um, telling them that this is the problem? Yes. They are told, um, remarkably often and the figures from overseas are quoted at. Them because we, in a, in a way we are lucky here, we are a little behind what's happening overseas. And most research that is done over there, we can, um, show them here and [00:25:00] say, well look, this is where we'll be in a couple of years time. Um, and the issue of who is at risk is an issue that they're very, very aware of. And we hope that in the future, their campaigns will be a little more targeted than what they have been in the past.[00:25:30] Thanks to Daniel Fielding for part one of this two part interview, we'll have the second part on next week, that's GayBC, Saturday mornings, 11. 30am. Just remember the Gay [00:26:00] Switchboard is available every night of the week for information and counselling and they are open 7. 30am to 10pm on the following number. 850674. The Afena Clinic is also available for counselling and testing for AIDS and they are at 35 Means Street in Newtown, their number is 893169 and of course that can be done all anonymously. We'll be back as I say next week, 11. 30am on Access Radio 783. See you then.

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TITLE: Jan Jordan - Snorkelling the Abyss
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VOICES: Jan Jordan; Valda Edyvane
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Abraham Lincoln; Alison Laurie; Anti Springbok tour protest (1981); Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Christian fundamentalism; Christianity; God; Jan Jordan; Janet Robinson; Lavender Menace; Lesbian Community Radio Programme; Lesbian Information, Library and Archives Centre (LILAC); Mr. Lee Grant; Pat Rosier; Pisces; Porleen Simmonds; Prue Hyman; Sappho; Snorkelling the Abyss: One woman, striving to survive, fighting for survivors (book); Takapuna; Valda Edyvane; Wellington; Westlake Girls' High School; Working girls : women in the New Zealand sex industry talk to Jan Jordan; bisexual; boundaries; criminology; cruelty; cutting; existentialism; exorcism; feminism; frameworks; gaslighting; human rights; identity; inhumane; journal; lesbian; lesbian feminism; massage parlour; neglect; omission; overseas travel; patriarchal system; psychotherapy; purple; religion; research; self harm; self sabotage; sex work; sexual abuse; snorkeling; structure; suicidal; teddy bear; travel; working girl; writing
DATE: 15 September 2024
YEAR: 2024
LOCATION: Lesbian Information, Library and Archives Centre (LILAC), Second floor, 187 Willis Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Jan Jordan, author of Snorkelling the Abyss: One woman, striving to survive, fighting for survivors, talks about the book and her journey. Jan's talk was given as part of the 30th birthday celebrations of LILAC. It took place on the 15 September 2024 at LILAC in Willis Street, Wellington. The recording begins with an introduction by Valda Edyvane.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: October 2024
TEXT: Kia ora tatou, um, welcome to Lilac, uh, Wellington's Lesbian Library. Um, I'll just go through, uh, sort of the order of proceedings, because there aren't many, but it'll make, maybe it'll make sense. Um, we'll, uh, have our guest speaker, and, um, I'll introduce Jan properly, and, uh, Jan will do [00:00:30] some readings and then we'll have questions if you've got any questions. And, uh, then we'll have a sort of a more informal gathering around the cake and there's some, some other snacks and some drinks behind you. Um, and Alan will actually talk about, um, the beginnings of, uh, lilac. 30 years ago, this is, this, hence the cake, our 30th [00:01:00] anniversary. Um, so, then we'll cut the cake and, uh, uh, eat it and, um, drink and be merry. And, uh, but before I, um, I begin, um, I'd like to make some acknowledgements of, um, of lesbians who've passed. And, uh, Pauline Simmons. who was, um, very important collective member and quite an activist, [00:01:30] lesbian activist, over the years. Uh, Pat Rosier, uh, who started the first book group. And, uh, in the last few weeks, Alison Lorry, who wasn't a collective member, but she was a very firm supporter of Lilac. And Interestingly, there's a link between Jan and Fran and Alison, because I'm told that in 1989, Alison [00:02:00] delivered a series of lectures for continuing education on lesbian her story. And, uh, the three, three plus a few other lesbians who actually came out, um, enjoyed Alison's talks. We're delighted, actually, that we're finally talking at, um, at LILAC. And, um, uh, I've just briefly [00:02:30] introduced you. I know people, many of you, actually, here know Jan Jordanis, but, um, uh, she's, um, Emerita Professor at, uh, Victoria University, um, Te Hongaringa Waka, and She's a noted criminologist, uh, author, and some, done some amazing, valuable work on the survivors of rape and sexual [00:03:00] abuse, amongst other things. Um, and now she's the, um, author of these memoirs. And, um, this is an amazing book. It's, um, I think the, the clue is in the subtitle One woman striving to survive, fighting for survivors. And there's some, you know, to be honest, there are some dark passages in this. [00:03:30] But as a reader, I felt you, I was a willing reader to survive. And it's a very compelling read. It's, uh, but gradually, um, step by step. Um, you, uh, worked a way to, um, self preserve and, um, and to survive. And I suppose it was learning to navigate [00:04:00] the abyss. And you returned to university and had a very successful career. So, um, I, um, before I finish the introduction, I must say that I never expected to read in this book mention of Mr. Lee Grant. Ooh! A New Zealand pop singer. I actually was at school with someone who was dead keen on Lee Grant and actually cut her hair in the [00:04:30] same style. So, it pleased me no end. And the other thing was that, um, I appreciated your tips on snorkeling. Because I, um, I've always panicked a bit, so I knew I just had to, I have to stick with it. Absolutely. So it's over to you. Okay. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much, Valda. And, um, I have a question thanks to [00:05:00] Robin who's not here today, but who was the first, who, um, yeah. Rang and, and invited me and then Valdas been wonderful at briefing me and, um. And yes, keeping me warmed up for today's event, which I'm delighted to be at, um, because it is such a memorable occasion. I'm strategically positioned for the cake at the moment, which is, which is a work of art. Um, and I also, I too wanted to acknowledge the passing particularly recently of Alison Laurie, because Alison was, [00:05:30] um, really important for me in those coming out days, as was Prue. Um, and lesbian radio. It was, um, was such an important kind of touchstone in a way, um, in the eighties and Alison's passion, her zeal, her commitment, um, were a real inspiration. So I just wanted to acknowledge her, her passing as well. Um, and thinking about today, I, I go off sometimes on little tangents [00:06:00] and I met up on a tangent about the name Lilac and I thought, okay, so we know it's the lesbian information library and archive centre. Yep, um, but I really got into thinking about the color and the color lilac or lavender, purple, whatever you want to call it, And of all colours, that lavender purple colour is that most associated with lesbians. And it crops up again and again in Lesbian Her Story in relation to joy and [00:06:30] activism, affirmation of identity. Um, you know, it goes way back. I mean, we can recall Sappho's case. poems about violets and, um, her wearing garlands of purple flowers, um, and in the early 1900s, lesbian women would give violets to the women they were wooing, which is a rather nice custom. I think that's one we could reintroduce. Um, but the association wasn't always positive. Um, in the mid 20th century in the U. [00:07:00] S., The Lavender Scare saw gay men, lesbian women removed from government jobs out of fear that they posed a threat to national security because they were vulnerable to blackmail. Um, and in the early 70s, lesbians were referred to even by some feminists. As the Lavender Menace. Um, out of fears that they were too radical, and basically that they'd give feminism a bad name. Um, the term lavender, I didn't know this [00:07:30] one before I started looking it up, was even applied to men at times. Um, in 1926 there was a biography of Abraham Lincoln that described him as possessing a streak of lavender. Um, implying he had homosexual tendencies, or perhaps we might more likely say today bisexuality. And then of course we've got Alice Walker's the Color purple, which, you know, big celebration of, of that color. So lilac and purple are now really proudly associated with lesbian [00:08:00] empowerment, and it is a color that connects us, connects us, and I think it's, you know. No wonder that it's embraced by lilac, um, in the name. Now I grew up unaware of all of this, um, I didn't know growing up the term lesbian, what a lesbian was, let alone suspect I might be one. Um, and as Valda said, last year I brought out this memoir with Cuba Press about the importance really of connecting all the different parts of myself into [00:08:30] a whole. Um, and for me, I felt as if I had a very mixed up me who'd nearly killed herself. Um, birth name, Janet Robinson, and another older me who was known as an academic and criminologist, Jan Jordan. And as Prue said coming in, she really, I think I need you were meaning you only knew the Jan Jordan. You had no idea there was a Janet Robinson lurking in the wings. So I wrote the book to bring these two identities [00:09:00] together because I felt like there was a bit of a split inside of me. I felt like these two actually needed to be integrated. I needed to integrate them into one. And so the book is my identity. integrating of those two identities. And of course, part of that journey for me involved, um, accepting and becoming proud of being lesbian. And like many women, I was a late bloomer. And I can still remember the encouraging talk from The straightest talking [00:09:30] lesbian I know, um, on a, on a bus after a women's studies conference where she basically told me to stop mucking around and just get on with it, um, which was very sage advice and, um, I was terrified of Prue back then so I followed it. But if I look back to the high school me. I can see it was all there, um, I just didn't have a framework at the time for recognising it. So I want to read a piece from, [00:10:00] um, that's about my, me in my fourth form years at high school. So we can just find where the fourth form me is hiding. So, as my self hatred intensified, I responded by putting special friends and teachers on pedestals, developing strong crushes. All but two of the Westlake teachers were women, with the majority of the senior staff [00:10:30] unmarried. We romanticised that this was because they were grieving for fighter pilot fiancées who'd tragically been killed in the war, later realising they weren't old enough. The teacher I became most fixated on was Miss Ryburn, my social studies teacher in the third and fourth forms, before she became our school headmistress. Girl's diary entries of few words conveyed the strength of my adoration. Miss Ryburn, the most tremendous teacher ever. [00:11:00] Miss Ryburn blew school up with just cause at assembly. Looked gorgeous as usual. Lovely facial features, especially eyes. Miss Ryburn, she's the greatest thing since God. I hate it bad. I stayed up late at night to make my workbook for her immaculate. I drew maps of Mesopotamia, found pictures of Japan, added clippings from newspapers, stenciled title pages. Anything and [00:11:30] everything to impress my adored teacher. In her classes, she whisked us away to faraway places and took us time travelling through history. One day we were standing past Egypt's pyramids, the next marching through Nazi Germany. By now I was working Friday nights and holidays in Preston's bookshop in Takapuna, spending my meagre wages on modern history books. When Miss Ryburn came to the shop one evening, I turned a brighter shade of red as sweat [00:12:00] dripped from my brow. I could barely bring myself to serve her. Later I cursed myself in case my discomfort made me appear rude. Her classes allowed me to conceive of a life different to my own, which helped me manage the everyday pain I felt at being alive. What would life have been like if I'd been born into a Viking family in the 11th century? Or being a lady in waiting to Queen Elizabeth I. I knew better than to want to be any of [00:12:30] King Henry VIII's wives, maids or mistresses. The possibility of life being different, and my experience of it being different, gave me hope that my own could change. Even though I felt imprisoned, I could see out between the bars and imagine a different place, a place where I might connect and belong. Later in the book I talk about my first lesbian relationship that occurred at a time when we actually felt the real [00:13:00] pressure to keep it hidden and secret. We were both working as postgrad students and tutors in the same university and department. The intensity and the lack of space, huge. We moved in to live together. We marched against the 1981 tour together. We kept studying together, working together, but it became too turbulent to be sustainable. Trying to keep living as friends was also a disaster, and amidst huge angst, [00:13:30] she moved out. The next couple of years, I lived alone in that house. I struggled to understand what it all meant. Was I a lesbian? What was a lesbian? Four years later, I was still mystified, and I wrote, What was that all about? The passion, the fervor, the sheer intensity of it all, stifling each other, loving each other so possessively, [00:14:00] throttling each other emotionally. Is that a pattern for relationships? Is that what being lesbian is all about? Or is that what being insecure in any relationship can lead to? I sensed some of my confusion stemmed from the vast transition I made so quickly. I said, I feel so very mixed up again by all that happened there and why I seemingly went from Christian fundamentalist to lesbian [00:14:30] feminist overnight. No wonder, there was a bit of a culture shock going on. Eventually, I ricocheted back into relationships with men, none of them lasting or successful, and didn't live with another partner until Chris and I got together. More on that later. So I had to overcome, um, a hard journey to overcome the insecurities I had and just to accept that, that I was in fact lovable. I had to do what I call [00:15:00] snorkel the abyss, the abyss of despair that I felt at times I came close to, um, being swallowed by. And the younger me, um, was very full of misery, self loathing, and as well as various suicide attempts. I often use cutting to release the emotional turmoil inside, sometimes needing more than 40 stitches at a time just to knit me back together again. And today I'm really grateful that friends, [00:15:30] supporters reached out at different times to save me from my own destructiveness during those days and from that very sort of self sabotaging part of myself. And a lot of healing and recovery was needed before I could have a successful relationship. And that included finding feminist frameworks that actually helped me make sense of my life and understand so much more of it. And my growing confidence and strength has really evolved in the context of my relationship with Chris. And we've been together now 32 [00:16:00] years, which is amazing. No, Chris is down the back with the scarf on. That's Chris. Right. You've been outed. Um, it's not surprising we had a pretty rocky beginning and it took me a long time to learn to trust in her love and steadfastness and the strength of our lavender connection. And that strong connection is part of what helped me connect with myself, find ways to make sense of who I am. [00:16:30] And very early on, I found it really hard. I had to go to the US to a conference. And before I left, Chris gave me a little bear to take with me to the States. And I still have this little bear. Oh my goodness. Anybody want to guess what her name is? Lavender. This is Lavender. So, she started life being very, you know, she's not doing well, is she? Given that she's more than 30 and she started life scrunched [00:17:00] in a suitcase, bundled all the way to the States and back. It's frameworks that really help us make sense of our worlds. Frameworks are really important, I think, and they help us make meaning of what we see and what we experience. And they help us discern what's important and what's not. And they're powerful, and they can also be seen as challenging to those who don't share them. And I've been thinking a lot about how we're living in a time when there's a lot of talk about diversity, but in [00:17:30] ways that seem divisive. And I think it's really critical that we hold on to our distinctiveness as lesbians, and to not have our identities dissolved in what I call a soup of queerness, or lost beneath a cloak of inclusivity. We can be queer, diverse, and inclusive lesbians. And that's because I think being lesbian is both personal and political. And it's about our identity and our right to be recognised for making the [00:18:00] choice to actually love women. And it's really important, I think, that this library, this archive, continues to exist and retain its lesbian identity. And so on that note, I really want to thank all those who've worked so hard for 30 years to found this place, keep it going, put the energy into this place and bring this gathering together today as well. So congratulations on 30 years to Lilac and here's [00:18:30] to the next 30 of strong lesbian identity. Thank you. That was brilliant. Thank you. Thanks. Are there any questions, comments? I still, I've, I got completely caught up on the question why. I mean your, your parents were pretty. So so. [00:19:00] For parents, obviously. You couldn't really have released it in their lifetimes, I wouldn't have thought. Because it's pretty damn critical of them. But they didn't seem to me to be so terrible. It seemed to me to be much like a lot of them of that era. They didn't beat you, they didn't sexually abuse you. You got sexually abused later. Yeah. They, and, uh, I mean I wanted to [00:19:30] slap you. Yeah. I wanted to say, for God's sake, step out of it. Right. You're not much worse than me. Most of us had, or a lot of us had, my dad committed suicide when I was nine, I was sort of, had some trauma, and I didn't go that way, and I wonder, was I, you know, particularly insensitive, and you were particularly sensitive, and I was thinking, God, you used up all the resources of the National Health Service, didn't you? LAUGHTER I just [00:20:00] wondered how you got out of it, really, and, uh, yeah, maybe, um is Maybe I should have got it more from the book, but the integration of the two halves I found a bit hard to. Okay, so the first bit, the bit that made you want to slap me, um, I mean, there were times I felt like slapping me too, um, too many of them. Um, I think it is hard, hard to explain. I think [00:20:30] we talk a lot about, um, the abuse that comes that's overt and that's committed. And it's a little bit like when you think about, um, like neglect and omission. are also abusive. So things that aren't given and aren't made available and aren't, aren't there, are also damaging and destructive. And for me growing up, um, I was an only child with these [00:21:00] older parents, with a mother who was locked still in her own grief. So, um, and a father who had been emasculated by. Um, very much by my mum's mum, who'd provided the house and ruled the roost, etc. He basically absented himself in all sorts of ways. Mostly down, down to the garage. Always a lot. When he was up in the house, he wasn't really there. He was behind a newspaper. So he was absent. My mother was absent with her [00:21:30] own grief. So for a child growing up, There was no touchstone in that house at all. There was a lot of swirling emotions, and family members would be silently exiled in and out of the house, but nobody would talk about what was going on. Um, grandparents would die, you wouldn't really be told, you wouldn't be allowed to go to the funeral. Everything was pretense. And for me, I suppose, now people talk a lot about gaslighting. There was nothing, you know. There was nothing [00:22:00] solid that I could hang onto to form my identity around. And there was nobody emotionally who was available at all to um, give love, express love, um, people provided and they were loving and that yes, they put food on the table. They said, how was your day at school? And did you come top again? You know, there was that kind of loving, but in terms of. What are you feeling? Or why are you [00:22:30] upset? Or, this is just happening and this is why I'm not going to be much cock to you tonight because I've just had this happen to me as a parent. There was none of that. So, for me growing up, I got lost in that. And I didn't know what was real, who to trust. I thought everything was a world of pretense. And part of the cutting in some ways for me was to. Slash through the pretense and say, you know, one stage I wrote, I've got insides, I can see them [00:23:00] because I felt that I was living as this surface dweller in a pretend world where nothing could be trusted, nothing was real, and no one really cared about me emotionally at all. Okay, so that, so that's, yeah, okay. Um, in terms of putting it all together, in a funny way, the Christians helped. It's a transition thing, because at least they tried to say God loves you, Jesus loves you. Um, [00:23:30] and so for a while there was that as a bit of a touchstone, but I couldn't really believe it. And if you've read the book, then you know that what happened was because I couldn't believe it and trust that completely. Then I went through exorcism rituals where they tried to cast out the demons of doubt and despair and all the rest of it. So, um, so that kind of fell apart a bit, but at least the people, like there are some of those people I still have huge respect for, for the way that they, they did care [00:24:00] and they did listen and they did want to know what was going on. Sure, I didn't buy their answer, but They were prepared to listen to what was real, so, so that was, that was an important part of it. But I think, I think, you know, knitting, knitting myself together was, it took a long time. I think writing helped. I used to write lots and lots of journals. So, and in some ways I kind of wrote myself together. Um, I Your [00:24:30] memory's amazing. Well, that's because I had all these journals. Yep, I had, I had all these journals. Yep, I, I know, living in a small house, they're one of the banes of our lives, is that I've got boxes of journals from, um, I had my diaries from, you know, I've got my diary that I wrote in the fourth grade. form, you know, like, um, you know, like writing helped writing. I mean, I had to, you know, I was asking the question why, and I was trying to [00:25:00] answer it back to myself and it wasn't very successful, but it was a way of asking it, it was a way of putting it out there. Um, you know, so there was a mix of, of people in connection of the writing, um, later of psychotherapy. You know, which, um, which I found really, you know, really important as a way of trying to make sense of some of, some of the past. Along the way, I tried all sorts of other things because I got, you know, I was desperate for, you know, for answers, etc. So there's all [00:25:30] kinds of things that fed into that. Um, and I think in terms of the transition, for me it was when I started feeling like I could have a successful career and the book, Working Girls, which was, um, the first bit of real research that got published came out. It was a book of interviews with sex workers in New Zealand. It was research I kind of fell into, um, literally kind of fell into because I'd done some historical work on sex work and then was asked to write a chapter for a book. And I thought Sheda Cox was asking me to write a chapter for a book. [00:26:00] On the historic woman in the 19th century that I'd done university research on, and she said, no, I want you to write about contemporary sex work. And I said, I don't know anything about contemporary sex work. And she said, I didn't know anyone better to go out and find out about it. And next thing I'm in a message parlor in Wellington going. Anybody want to have a chat? And so, so that was unleashed. When that book came out, people said to me, you've got, I [00:26:30] was talking about changing my name, and they said, if you're going to change your name, you really have to do it now. Um, and so that was when I decided to, changed my name and, and embraced Jan Jordan, Jordan being my grandmother's maiden name as far back as I could kind of go. And I liked it as a name and it's watery and I'm Pisces and all those sorts of things. Um, so, and in a sense, that was an important thing too. And, and that sort of journey was taking on a [00:27:00] name that Yes, that I claimed as my own. So that was, that was actually an important thing. And then the 90s, you know, went forward from there and during that time Chris and I got together and I felt like I cemented a bit more of my career and what I was doing and, you know, well, you know, you knew the history from that time anyway. Yeah, so there's that. Answer that bit a little bit too? Yep, okay. It's such a contrast. [00:27:30] Yeah, um, it is a huge contrast, um, but I think just like I kind of sank slowly through childhood into it, it took me quite a long time to rise as an adult out of it. It wasn't, it wasn't like a Christian conversion experience, you know, it was. Yeah, a lot of it doing the hard work and a lot of it being dependent on love and support from people around about me as well. And just on friendship and I'm kind of just having a and [00:28:00] learning to trust that what people said was actually real and that people could would tell you the truth. You know, just trusting. Trusting emotional connection. Um, did you grow up in a Christian household? Not really. Um, I went to Sunday school and my mother was Anglican, um, church at Christmas and Easter. Um, but not really. I mean, we didn't talk about God around the table or. No. Pray. No. No. To thank God for the food. [00:28:30] Not, maybe when my godmother came, once or twice, but. She was a devout Anglican. My mother, my mother was an Anglican, not devout. No, your grandmother. My god, my godmother. Oh, your godmother. No, not really, but she was called the godmother, she was supposed to be looking after my godly welfare. Maybe, yeah. Ha, ha, ha. Just on that bit about religion, because that features, um, Well, first of all, I'd like to say what a good reader it was, and I think you've been very brave [00:29:00] writing it. Oh, thanks. And I thought it had a lot of integrity, in terms of you being very honest about, you know, what happened to you. But, of course, in that, what features quite a lot, is in fact the, um, the religious aspect. And you do say in the book, something along the lines of, well, when I found feminism that, you know, I jumped from that to that. Where does God [00:29:30] sit with you now? I mean, do you still have any leftovers from that time? You know, I'm not even sure. I think I'm probably just in that agnostic kind of, no, not really. Um, no, I think, I was never totally convinced at the time. Like I tried to convince myself and I thought that, My surviving depended on my being convinced by it at times. But [00:30:00] no, it doesn't, um, yeah, you know, I sort of No part in your life now? No, um, God's, she's a black feminist lesbian, you know, I mean, you know, who is God? What is God? No, not for, not for me. Is there one God or more than one God? I'm agnostic, I don't know. It's, I, I don't know. Um, I think. Rather than worrying about, now I'd rather than, I [00:30:30] suppose, rather than worry about whether there's a God or not, I'm much more concerned about worrying about what we're doing to our Earth. So, um, I guess for me, um, I found feminism, like you mentioned, mentioned feminism, feminist framework helped me make sense much more of my experiences in life. And anybody who's ever been to any of my lectures is probably sick of hearing me go on about the patriarchy and the fact that [00:31:00] that, you know, for me, that whole conceptual apparatus that feminism gave me around understanding, you know, why I'm We have, you know, so much gender, you know, inequality, and the lives of women and the lives of lesbians as women. That framework, for me, has probably given me the most powerful tool to make sense of my world. More powerful than what the religious talk gave me. In your world, it's a cruel God. [00:31:30] No, there is, there is. God's not necessarily responsible. People have, people have, have been cruel and people are being cruel, you know, I mean, I, I want to look and put responsibility on humanity for actually being far too often inhumane. Um, and that's, I think what we need to address is, you know, inhumanity, the lack of human rights and the need to actually. right our relationship and our [00:32:00] connections, not just with each other, but our connections with with this planet that we're living on and slowly destroying. Yeah. Yeah. Hi. I was really struck by what you said about structure, like needing structure. Could you say a bit more about that? Because what I heard was no structure, nothing to cling onto for Janet Robertson. Yeah. At all. Or something that didn't really hold, and then I'm kind of interested in, [00:32:30] and then you said structures of relationship, work, I'm kind of interested too in what your structures are now. Well I think in a way you could, I mean another word around that I suppose is like, you can, loosely say, like having boundaries around as well. So boundaries that help to kind of contain and frameworks, I guess I'd, I used to be strict, but I'm sort of thinking to a frameworks more frameworks to make sense of meaning. And like, [00:33:00] when I was growing up, it felt like, um, there wasn't, there was no container on the emotion in the, in the house. And there was no. framework to make sense of what was swirling around, unsettled the time. Mm-Hmm. . And there was, I mean, yes, there was, it's not that it didn't have structure in that. Yes, we had a pattern. We got up and, you know, I mean, it was a routine. We had routine, we had the, we had a [00:33:30] structure each day, but that structure masked the fact that there was nothing beneath it that was tangible at all and nothing. And nothing to, that could be related to. It's a hard thing to explain. I'm asking because I slightly relate. Right. That's why I'm asking the question. For me growing up, I grew up in a Christian household. Ah, yep. So that was the container. Right. And it felt safe for a long time. And then I just identified with you let [00:34:00] something go, and then you find something new. Yeah. Like you found lesbianism. Yeah. Yeah, and so then you find other things like work. And other things. So it's just kind of an interesting idea. And yeah, I wondered how other people feel like, do I need structure? Do other people, do we all need some kind of structure to kind of make sense of living? I'm here. That's what I was interested in. I mean, I'm not sure about other people. I know for me, I really needed some kind of framework.[00:34:30] Like one of the big things I got obsessed with was asking, like, why and everything seemed. And the thing that really preoccupied me as a teenager was that life seemed essentially meaningless. There was no fundamental, there was, there was nothing. That gave any of it meaning. And then I thought I'd do philosophy and then of course I read existentialism and you know, by then I was thinking, it doesn't matter, you know, whether I pull the kid from under the bus wheels or [00:35:00] whether I throw the kid in front of the bus wheels. It's, it's all meaningless. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or throw myself under the bus wheels. It doesn't, you know, nothing mattered. So for me, I, I Are you that suicidal at the moment? No. No. No. You do not need to worry. I haven't been suicidal for a long time. Many a long time. So, yeah. No. I'd like to just, um, talk a little bit about, um, travel. [00:35:30] Yeah. You seem to have travelled an awful lot, a lot, but sometimes in not very good state. Yeah. And It gives a certain momentum to the book, but it's, I saw it also sort of as a metaphor of your, you know, your journey looking back. Um, that, uh, there was, as I say, there's a lot of travel, not just in Europe, was it because it was easy to travel, or in, you [00:36:00] know, the Indian subcontinent, um, and more since. So. Did that, were you, was that a device you used or was it just something that happened? It's a good question, Valda, because I think travel for me as a kid growing up, like, my earliest books that I started saving collections of were all about children in other countries and other lands. So I bought, I was focused, you know, from a four year old at least onwards, with how kids lived in other parts of the world and what their [00:36:30] lives were like. And. So I think from an early age, I did use travel as a, as a device. Um, and I was curious, you know, like part of me just felt so trapped and stifled in this world. I just used to sit and spin my globe and just think, you know, there's something else out there, you know, I just need to find it, you know. Um, and so travel was really important. And then, you know, the desperate travel that you allude to really was throwing [00:37:00] everything, including enough. pills to top myself with into a suitcase and going to the other side of the world. And just thinking, you know, I mean, I didn't believe in a geographical fix, but then another part of me hoped that, you know, it was really depressed when I got off the plane and found myself waiting there to greet me, you know, it was like, ah, you know, you're still here. So travel had always had a hope, I guess, for me. Um, But also an [00:37:30] intrigue, because I think I was always really curious that other kids had different kinds of lives in other places, you know. Um, and I grew up in a very white part of Auckland, but I got, you know, I had kids about Māori children growing up. I had, you know, I All kinds of kids I wanted to know about, what was life like. Um, so yeah, it was, yep, it was an important part and travel's still an important part. Um, Chris and I have just come back from, finally, after 30 years since we ever first got together talking about it, [00:38:00] we've been on safari in Africa. So, yes, so, um, travel's still important and, and that was affirming in terms of just, you know, like conservation and the environment and what's being done to try and protect a lot of the endangered animals on the African continent. So yeah, so that was amazing. So travel is still important. I'd travel more if I could. Any more questions? On behalf of the collective Jan, I'd like to thank you very [00:38:30] much. Oh, thank you. Oh, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. It's lovely.

IRN: 3912
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/considering_matthew_shepard_wellington_youth_choir_and_christchurch_youth_choir.html
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TITLE: Considering Matthew Shepard - Wellington Youth Choir and Christchurch Youth Choir
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VOICES: Etienne Wain; Rheya McCowan; Sarah Harwood
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Considering Matthew Shepard (oratorio); Craig Hella Johnson; Etienne Wain; Huakina (performance event); Judy Shepard; Matthew Shepard; Rheya McCowan; Sarah Harwood; The Laramie Project; United States of America; Wellington; Wellington Cathedral of St Paul; Wellington Youth Choir; Westboro Baptist Church; Wyoming; music; youth
DATE: 12 October 2024
YEAR: 2024
LOCATION: Wellington Cathedral of St Paul, 2 Hill Street, Thorndon, Wellington
CONTEXT: Rheya McCowan, Etienne Wain and Sarah Harwood from Wellington Youth Choir and Uthara from the Christchurch Youth Choir talk about performing Considering Matthew Shepard, a three-part modern oratorio written by American composer Craig Hella Johnson in response to the murder of Matthew Shepard in 1988. Matthew died on 12 October 1998. The two choirs performed the work on the 12 October 2024 in the Wellington Cathedral of St Paul.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: October 2024
TEXT: My name is Rheya. I'm from Wellington Youth Choir. Um, I'm a soprano, too. Hi, my name is Etienne. I'm also in Wellington Youth Choir. I use he, any pronouns and I am a bass one. Hi, I'm Ythara. I'm from the Christchurch Youth Choir and I sing sop 2. Kia ora, I'm Sarah. I'm from Wellington Youth Choir and I sing alto 2. Yeah, so we're in the Wellington Cathedral of St Paul's, um, and tonight we will be performing Considering [00:00:30] Matthew Shepard, um, with the Wellington Youth Choir, the Christchurch Youth Choir, as well as some instrumentalists from New Zealand School of Music. And a featured soloist, Joshua Jameson. Um, and this work is about the murder of a young gay man in Wyoming, 1998. And can you describe, um, the setup for tonight's performance? Yeah, so we've had, uh, quite a substantial amount of staging and technical operations come into [00:01:00] this, um, performance. So we've got a big projector screen up behind the choir stand, which is going to have all the lyrics because they are really important to understand what's being said, especially in a big space like this where it's quite washy and there's a lot of reverb. So being able to actually understand the really important texts that's in the work is really important. Um, we've also had some lighting very kindly lended to us by the Victoria University theatre program, um, which will be up in here, lighting up the, um, [00:01:30] behind us. Um, we've had some prizes, uh, come in from a staging company, um, sound, like, sound equipment, microphones, um, we're going to have it recorded as well, um, so lots and lots of technical, um, stuff coming in. So there are two choirs performing tonight. Can you first tell me about, um, the Wellington Youth Choir? Yeah, um, Wellington Youth Choir, I just, I joined halfway through the year, but it's Such a lovely space to be in, honestly. [00:02:00] Um, I think that I've, I've grown up in choirs and like this is the one that's felt the most right, sort of, you know? Um, there's just so many different people and different types of voices and like I find that the music that we do is just always amazing and always gives opportunity to very, like, different, um, composers and things like that. Um, and I think that it's just a very supportive [00:02:30] environment as well. You know, everybody really looks out for each other, um, which is lovely. So is the youth choir, is it youth led? So the Wellington Youth Choir is for singers age 17 to 27. Um, and we are a self-run choir, so that means that all of the choir, all the committee who do all of the organizing, arranging and everything are choir members who are singing in the choir. Um, the only person who is not, you know, I guess Youth , I guess would be our, um, our choir director, Rowan Johnston. [00:03:00] So this is his second year with the choir. Um, and. But yeah, everything else is done by choir members, um, who are obviously in the youth bracket that we have of 17 to 27. So yeah. And what about the, the Christchurch Youth Choir? The Christchurch Youth Choir also runs quite similar to the Wellington Youth Choir, so I'm the president of the Christchurch Youth Choir, and we're also self run, so we got members in the choir, also the committee as well, and similar age range from 16 to 26. Is what we're looking at at the moment. And so how did both [00:03:30] choirs come together? I believe our current director, Jared, who used to direct the Wellington Youth Choir a few years ago. And so he moved down to Christchurch. Now he's with us, this is his first year with us. And so we ended up kind of making connection and just thought this would be a great idea to collaborate. So what is the best part about being in youth choir? I think kind of making the friendships and connections. Everyone's just so friendly and we all kind of bond over our mutual love for music and it's just fun to put it together. and just [00:04:00] enjoy the whole process. What about you? I think also the friendships and the relationships are really important. I've made some really good lifelong friends out of choirs, and this one's no different, and it's really nice to be making new friends with Christchurch as well. So can you talk a wee bit more about tonight's performance, the work that you're performing? Well, um, I was born in 1997 and one year later, um, this huge [00:04:30] news event happened in the United States where, um, heads turned and I guess the middle America started noticing queer people because, um, of the really tragic and brutal death of this beautiful young man, Matthew Shepard. And people were moved. and continue to be moved so much. Also that, um, this really cool composer, [00:05:00] Craig Heller Johnson, decided to write a two hour musical work about it. Um, I remember him saying in a documentary that I watched that he felt really affected by Matthew's death. Um, and especially the thought that it really could have been anyone, any, any ordinary boy. Um, and, Through talking to, um, Dennis and Judy, Matthew's parents, so I've heard, [00:05:30] um, was granted the permission to create this work that is about both the really specific story of Matthew's life and death, and also about our common humanity, about grace and love and forgiveness and hope, even in the face of hate. Given the age range of the choirs, what is it like for the choirs, kind of as a mass, to be [00:06:00] acknowledging Matthew, who, I mean, many of the people in the choirs wouldn't have been around when he was alive? Um, yeah, I think that, specifically for the queer members of the choir, it's like, just, Acknowledging that history and learning from that is like, really, really important. As queer people, we often don't get history, right? We're often left out or, um, like in the AIDS crisis, um, we died. And so, It's [00:06:30] really special to be able to hold on to these moments that have been captured in song or in a musical like Rent, um, or in a book or in a journal. And so to be part of bringing those histories to people today and to the younger generations, I say, still as a member of the youth choir, but as one of the only ones who was around for Matthew's death, but then I was one as well. So. I only heard about Matthew Shepard [00:07:00] because of doing this work as well, and the hope is that more people will hear, not only about him, but also about the many queer histories we have, and I'm thinking in Aotearoa, the Takataapui histories we have especially. Can you describe some of the musical forces we'll hear tonight and how the performance will go? Um, I mean we have, there's quite a wide variety of musical styles and um, different kind of, I guess, ways of [00:07:30] processing and dealing with all of the events that are covered in the work. Um, so for example we start with a real kind of cowboy solo, there's some yodeling, um, and that comes back right at the end to kind of, Bring us full circle back to the end. Um, there's some there's a really beautiful kind of jazz blues inspired number which is Phenomenal. I don't think any of us can do that that piece justice and a lot of the [00:08:00] text and the there's a mixture of sources of the text and considering Matthew Shepard, so there's Ordinary boy, which is the second um movement, um, has text from Matthew Shepard's own writing, um, has text from I think Judy's um, writing as well, um, and then there's some movement nine is a Particularly, uh, challenging work, I think, because that deals, um, with the content around how the Westboro Baptist Church protested Matthew's funeral. [00:08:30] Um, so that has some really, kind of, just nasty content for us to deal with as a choir. Um, but then we come all the To the end where there's this healing and kind of resolution and I think something that's really quite beautiful is that the last word you hear in the entire oratorio is free. I think that's really beautiful. I think that, um, all the different pieces are really interesting too because it's almost like they're their own like characters, you know? Um, like they, they all have their own different, not only like [00:09:00] styles, but like even just like the text and the way that it's like, You know, song and the people that sing it, like the different groups of the choir, like, you know, how they sing it. And I think it's really interesting to see the differences because it's like, I think if it was the same all throughout, it would kind of just be like, one story with this. It's like many, many things added together, you know? Yeah. I guess, I guess one thing that we're really conscious of is there is, there's a lot of, um, [00:09:30] violence. discussed in this work, and obviously, um, that's really, really upsetting for some people because it's, you know, a reminder that there are hateful people out there who don't accept people for who they are, and that's really, really upsetting. And particularly in Wellington, where we have such a vibrant queer community, I think we're quite conscious of the fact that there could be people in the audience who this is especially personal for, and might be quite distressing to hear, and so it's just trying to find that balance of [00:10:00] This is a really important work because it deals with such important content and queer history, but also respecting the fact that that might be quite triggering for people. So we've, we've had quite a, quite a think about how, um, how best to manage that and make sure that we perform the work respectfully, but also create that space for people who are going to be upset by the content. Can I add to that as well? Because as we said, there are many members of both choirs who are queer, and that's something that. Each of [00:10:30] us has had to work through as well in really wanting to perform this important work while also not sacrificing ourselves along the way. And so, um, we've bonded together, we've learned different skills, um, different exercises we've, um, processed in our own time. I think we've also found, um, a deep enough level within the music that the music that we know so well now can hold us. And so sometimes it's holding out for that jazz solo [00:11:00] or for a wonderful tenor aria, which always lifts my spirits. And I, um, know that, ah, yep. And a few movements, this is where the arc is hitting. Um, and so we are very conscious of this for the audience, many of whom won't have heard the work at all. And so wanting to make that journey. as safe as possible while still doing the work. What's it been like, not only learning the work, but you're also learning about [00:11:30] Matthew at the, at the same time. How's that been? I mean, I think it's been really beautiful in a, you know, in a way, um, because I find that yes, there is a lot of focus on his death, but we have one song called Ordinary Boy, and It's it's interesting because like lots of people have emotional reactions to like the more sad songs my most emotional reaction is to that song because yeah, because it's like [00:12:00] describing him in this beautiful like amazing way and You know, he he likes doing these different things, you know, and he he was just living out this like beautiful life you know so full of life so full of life exactly and I think that And that just makes everything else in the, in the, you know, in the piece like hit so much more because it's like, yeah, he just seemed like a beautiful soul.[00:12:30] What's the line that stands out to you in the entire work? Oh, that's like a tough question. I think all the pieces are just so beautiful. It's hard to pick. But I think like Sarah said, then the final. The word just being free really encapsulates the entire whole work in one word, just to end on a, such a powerful note, I would say. Um, I think for me, I think it's in movement three, um, which is, I am [00:13:00] open, we tell each other stories. Um, it talks about how, you know, we're open to hear a story, um, about a boy. And then there's this one line that I think is kind of in a similar way to Raya. Um, where it just says, could be any boy. You know, like this could have happened to any boy. any young queer person, and it has happened to other queer people. And that's, I think, this is a, like, this is a story about Matthew Shepard, but it's also a story about the queer community and the queer history that we've had. Um, [00:13:30] so I think that really, that one really, uh, hit home, I think. I'm with Rhea on this one. From Ordinary Boy, there's a line that gets me every time. Um, yeah. A boy of extraordinary laughter, extraordinary life, and yeah, just what we as humanity were robbed of, but also what this work calls us to, as well. Has this work been heard [00:14:00] in New Zealand before? Yes, once I believe in Christchurch. Okay, but not in the North Island, or? No. We think this is the North Island premiere. How many performers are performing tonight? It would be over a hundred. I, because we've got about, uh, 65 to 70 in the Wellington Youth Choir, and I think about 40 in the Christchurch Youth Choir. Plus we have our pianist, um, [00:14:30] and we have, yeah, as well as, um, Josh, who's doing a solo, but isn't in the choir. Um, so yeah, definitely over a hundred people. How does it feel to perform with such a large number of people in such a large space? I mean, for me, it feels like a bit like, I don't want to sound cheesy, but it sounds like a warm hug, you know, like, cause it's just kind of like hearing [00:15:00] Like do a big strong finish on us like especially for all of us, you know the very end we do this big and then it echoes and it's like We fill this space and it's just like it's beautiful because I'm like that was us. Yeah, exactly I'm like, oh my god, we did that guys, you know, um, and I think that it just like yeah, it's It's great singing with a big group of people that are as passionate about a piece as you are because you, you know, you'll be looking around [00:15:30] and seeing people like singing and, and, you know, like moving with the music. And I think that's like one of the most amazing experiences ever, you know, just being surrounded by people who love what you're doing as much as you, you know? No, I absolutely agree with that. I think it always gives me the chills when I hear the soloists and just the entire group come together, singing like one perfect chord in harmony. It just rings the entire cathedral. I think there's nothing more beautiful than that. One thing I want to add is that, [00:16:00] To me, it's really special as a queer Christian, actually, being in a cathedral for this, because the work draws on lots of church music from the ages, and it shows the church at its worst, Westboro Baptist Church, and also at its best as the place that hosted Matthew's funeral, for example. And so it's really special to be here in this symbol of Christianity um, singing an unapologetically queer work that calls [00:16:30] Us all. Um, to love us all. And adding to that as well, I know that the Cathedral have, are also really excited for us to be here. That was a very enthusiastic yes from them for us to perform here. Um, which is also really lovely as well, I think. I was really interested in seeing the advert for tonight's performance where you're talking about centering queer artists and queer works. Is this part of a larger thing for Wellington Youth Choir? Um, Yeah, so, um, earlier in the year we did a [00:17:00] concert called Huakina, which means to open in te reo Māori. Um, and that was a concert where all of the music was entirely by, um, non binary, erāwhiti and wāhine composers from New Zealand. Um, and we actually featured a lot of, um, uh, whānau. What's the word? Premieres. The first performances of, um, some works, including, um, uh, there was two pieces that were written by members of [00:17:30] Wellington Youth Choir as well, um, which was really cool, as well as, um, one by a former Wellington Youth Choir member as well, um, so that was really special for us to be able to perform that as well, especially not only it being, um, all non binary wahine erāwhiti composers, but also from Wellington. New Zealand and all of them were still, um, like most of the composers were actually in attendance at the concert as well. So we had some people who traveled, um, one of the composers traveled down from, uh, Palmerston North, I [00:18:00] think, um, some from Auckland, one from New Plymouth, one from Auckland. It was really, really cool to, um, have that experience. Um, and especially in the choral world where so much music is written by old white men. Um, and as much as that music has. Nice to sing. It's just really nice to be able to centre voices that often go unheard. Just finally, how, how do you think Matthew Shepard has changed you? [00:18:30] Well, I, so I was first introduced to Matthew Shepard because I did the Laramie Project, um, which is a play based on, um, the, a bunch of interviews of, um, from people after his death. Um, and that was like, it really piqued my interest because there were so many different people and so many different responses, you know? Um, but I think that this piece [00:19:00] specifically made me see truly, like, how beautiful his life was. And I think that, like, inspired me to kind of just live out my life unapologetically queer and be very, you know, thankful for kind of, you know, In a way, his death brought a lot of support to the queer community. You know, a lot of people's response was to recognize that, Oh, this is like, you know, there's so much hate [00:19:30] going towards this community. We can, we should do whatever we can to support them. And I'm really happy that I surround myself with people that support me and my queerness. But, um, yeah, I think it just, it kind of makes me sad because I would just kind of wish that. He was able to live out and, like, get the same support that I'm sort of getting, you know? Um, yeah. I, sorry, it's a hard question to answer, but [00:20:00] I think that it just made me reflect a lot. Um, and, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I would agree with that about it making me reflect a lot, but I also think, um, something that it also makes me think of is this, is queer history, but it's also the queer present, and we need to still have that, bring that same energy, um, and it's, it's, Which is why I think this is [00:20:30] so important to do, um, because, you know, so many of our choir members are queer. It is really, really important that we hold that space, um, for all the queer people in our choir. Um, and I think it's, yeah, it's made me really reflect on how, um, It is queer history and it's queer present and try not make it the future I think as well. Yeah really emphasize the importance of everyone's has to be heard everyone has a right to just live and [00:21:00] be themselves and no one should be having to hide in the shadows for what they how they feel what they want to do anything like that so open my eyes a lot and I think a lot to like these guys said a lot to reflect on and I'm just grateful that I can do it with a great group of people. In a word, for me, Matthew's taught me a lot about grace, and about a vision for a world where everyone is welcome, and no one even [00:21:30] thinks to be queerphobic or homophobic or transphobic, one where everyone can belong.

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TITLE: The history of LILAC
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VOICES: Ellen Faed
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TAGS: 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; 2020s; Alison Laurie; Aotearoa New Zealand; Cuba Street; Glenda Gale; Janet Campbell; Lesbian Community Radio Programme; Lesbian Information, Library and Archives Centre (LILAC); Lesbian Line (Wellington); Lesbian Newsletter (Wellington); Lesbian and Gay Fair; Linda Evans; London; Prue Hyman; QUILTED BANANAS (Wellington Access Radio); San Francisco; United Kingdom; United States of America; Usenet; Wellington; Wellington Access Radio; Willis Street; community radio; earthquake; landline; lesbian; library; lilac. lesbian. net. nz; nz. soc. queer; radio; soc. culture. queer
DATE: 15 September 2024
YEAR: 2024
LOCATION: Lesbian Information, Library and Archives Centre (LILAC), Second floor, 187 Willis Street, Wellington
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TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2024
TEXT: Tuesday the 17th, this coming week, is the 30th anniversary of the day we first opened for business. And this room is our fifth home. We're nomads, except we've been here since January 2013. But this is our best room. It's got a solid wall along there and those bookshelf uprights are bolted to the wall, So, in the next Kaikoura earthquake the bookshelves won't [00:00:30] fall over, just a few books will fly off, but stay away from that end if it's the Wellington fault line. I can't remember the previous four, I mean Janet Campbell's was one. Janet Campbell was first, Janet Campbell second, the church, the Buddhist Centre and then here. Anyway, before we opened, of course, there was many, many months of planning, preparation and fundraising. But the plot to create a lesbian library seems to have been hatched [00:01:00] by Linda Evans and Glenda Gale, who both worked in the National Library, so I think it was down in the coffee bar they came up with the idea, and Linda was co presenting the lesbian radio program each week with Alison Laurie, and so she gave a notice saying that the room had been booked in the YWCA for a meeting to discuss whether or not we should have a lesbian library in Wellington. And so lots of women turned out, about half of whom were librarians. And we voted yes. This, [00:01:30] this um, happened, yes, the first meeting of a steering committee of volunteers was held on the 2nd of November, 93. So this was back in 1993. And we decided we wanted it to be a lending library with archives and information. And on February the 8th, the meeting, we decided we need a name. And Janet Campbell wanted LILAC. And this dweeb, numpkin, in the next three minutes turned LILAC into an acronym. [00:02:00] My day job was working with acronyms on steroids. But the main topics we discussed at our meetings and the projects we worked on included fundraising. For example, at the Gay and Lesbian Fair in March 94, we had a great big white elephant stall with a table of second hand books and raised over 1, 100, which in today's terms would be about 2,400. {In the days we were admitted to [00:02:30] the lesbian fair}. Well, this was, this was the gay and lesbian fair, and we had a big place for it, and op shops weren't doing bric a brac then, they were just doing clothes, so we did very well. Students equipped their flat kitchens. Um, premises, we knew we just couldn't afford rents around the town. But Janet came up with what she thought was a temporary solution. Because she was setting up a counselling room in, uh, in a building on The Terrace. And [00:03:00] she said, well, we could set up our bookshelves against the walls and cover them with curtains when we weren't open. And she was using it as a counselling room. And we drafted a constitution and registered it as an incorporated society, opened a bank account, decided on membership criteria. Set subs at 10, 20, 30 dollars. They've only risen twice, about twice since then. Books, of course, we needed books to open. We got lots of donated books. We [00:03:30] shopped in all the second hand bookshops on Cuba Street and and on Courtenay Place and in Newtown. And Linda Evans visited a secondhand bookshop or two in San Francisco and sent back a mailbag packed with books. And Kathleen Johnson bought some books in London and sent them back. And then Muggins catalogued the books. Having been recruited by Glenda Gale from the Breathing Space Group. You'll [00:04:00] catalogue the lesbian library, won't you Ellen? Yes. We scrounged for book processing supplies. Book issue cards in the book pockets and the loan slips. We bought the plastic sheet for covering. Our libraries around the town were of course all automated and didn't need to issue books manually anymore so they were rooted out of back cupboards and brought to LILAC. We bought second hand library shelving. [00:04:30] And, for publicity, Lesbian Radio and the Wellington Lesbian Newsletter, of course, which had about three or four pages of notices in it each month, and until we opened it was a notice, if you are interested, contact them, the phone number. But, once we did open, we couldn't publicise the address because Janet Campbell was using it for counselling. Didn't want the address known. So women had to [00:05:00] phone Lesbian Line. Anyone remember Lesbian Line? These young things here won't know what a Lesbian Line is. There was Lesbian Lines up and down the country. They're all listed in the Wellington Lesbian Newsletters. So we opened on the 17th of September with about 400 books. One of the other curly things, of course, is that we were open after office hours, and it was an office building, so the street door had to be locked. So we had to have a volunteer sitting behind the door when we were open, [00:05:30] to open it for when likely looking women came along, and, uh, until Janet got a bell, a button to push to ring a bell up in the room. But we had, according to the, uh, something I found in the first minute book. About 51 women joined up on the first day. They poured in. And they could only borrow two books at a time because we only had 400. But for the young ones here, something of [00:06:00] the flavour of the times, the social milieu. Minutes were photocopied and posted out snail mail. No one had a personal email account. Some of us had work email accounts. Landlines not cell phones. And if you were phoning someone, you had to hope they had an answer machine that you could leave a message on. And the worldwide web was in its infancy. Social media was a nightmare to come, but there were chat rooms. I found a chat where called chat room [00:06:30] called nz. soc. queer, which was nicknamed socwear. {So what was that again?} nz. soc. queer - all you could do was post text messages The internet was travelling down copper wires and it was all very slow But we persisted! And we did it!

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PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/the_rainbow_list_project.html
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TITLE: The Rainbow List Project
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VOICES: Kerryn Pollock
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2020s; Alf Kaiwai; Antrim House; Aotearoa New Zealand; Boulcott Street; Carmen Rupe; Carmen's Curio Shop (second location); Charles Mackay; Courtney Archer; Courtney Archer and Chen Tan's home; Cuba Street; Destiny Church; Drag Storytime; Duigan Building; Ella Plimmer; Frank Sargeson; Frank Sargeson House; Grant Robertson; Hannah Gordon; Heritage New Zealand Pouhere Taonga; Karangahape Road; Katherine Mansfield; Kerryn Pollock; Marion Street; Old St Paul's; Plimmer House (now Boulcott Street Bistro); Rainbow List Project; Rewi Alley; Safe Space Alliance; Theodore Trezise; Theodore Trezise's house; Vinegar Hill / Putai Ngahere Domain; Vivian Street; Walter D'Arcy Cresswell; Wedlock: A Drag Wedding (2024); Wellington; Whanganui; Willy Smack'n Tush; burlesque; drag; funeral; gender performance; heritage; intangible heritage; performance; take over; wedding
DATE: 8 September 2024
YEAR: 2024
LOCATION: Old St Paul's, 34 Mulgrave Street, Pipitea, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2024
TEXT: So my name is Kerryn Pollock and among other things I work for Heritage New Zealand Pouhere Taonga which is the National Historic Heritage Agency and a really great project I have running is called the Rainbow List Project which really kicked off about 2021 and the main purpose of that was to improve the representation of Queer communities and histories in the New Zealand Heritage List, Rarangi Kōrero.[00:00:30] Today we are at Old St Paul's Church, which is an 1866, um, neo gothic, um, wonder of architecture. It's one of the properties that, um, Pohiria Taonga, uh, runs. We have custodianship over it, and, uh, it's the, The place where we are making our first sort of foray, I guess you could say, out of the heritage list and into our [00:01:00] heritage properties for RainbowList. Tell me more about that. Okay. So my idea with RainbowList is, as I said before, it's to make sure that queer histories and communities are represented in the heritage list. And so that's basically storytelling through, through the heritage list. All the narratives that go with the historic places that we have on that list. And so I guess the next step for the project is opening our [00:01:30] properties out to queer communities. So heritage is for everyone and I think it's very easy to think That, um, heritage is, um, not for everyone, that it's forbidding, that it's colonial, that it's, um, conservative, you know, all of those sorts of things, whereas heritage truly should be, anyway, in the ideal world, for everybody. So, um, For me, it's a really important next step for Rainbow List that we [00:02:00] essentially overtly throw our doors open to queer communities and almost allow for queer takeovers of our heritage spaces. That's been my dream. And so that's what the drag show that we've got coming up at Old St Paul's is all about. Yeah, so, I mean, have there been other opportunities? Are there any other drag shows in the past that have been here in this church? We're not aware of any drag shows as such. There was a burlesque show around 2008, I [00:02:30] think. That's well before my time with Heritage New Zealand. I mean, there are a lot of events in this church. place. It's still a consecrated church, but it's sort of not an operational church. And um, so while there are lots of weddings and funerals, um, in this place, there are also lots of music events, gigs, live music, exhibitions. There's all sorts of things, um, happen here. Um, so absolutely, it's already got, um, an amazing reputation [00:03:00] for a diversity of events. But as far as we are aware, there's never been a drag show here. And just getting back onto the, um, so with marriages, there's still being consecrated ground. I mean, do, do same sex marriages happen here? They do. Um, I know that, um, for instance, before the time of marriage, uh, when civil law, uh, civil unions came into effect, um, Grant Robertson, the ex, um, Minister of Finance, got civilized here, for want of a better word, [00:03:30] um, I know that there'll be a history of queer couples getting, um, civilised or, or married here and it's not something we've looked into, um, and it would be really interesting to do a bit more delving into that, um, but absolutely, I'm sure that if you delve back into the archives of this place, there will be clear evidence that queer people have used it, you know, for those fundamental rituals or everyday life purposes, um, worshipping when it was still an active church, um, Um, I know that, for instance, [00:04:00] Catherine Mansfield worshipped here and she obviously occupies her spot in our queer history. It is amazing to think that we are sitting in the same pews that Catherine Mansfield sat in a hundred plus years ago. Yeah, exactly. I think that's one of the amazing Um, I guess experiences that Heritage Places offer is that we can, um, you know, immerse ourselves in them and once we know the stories, we can connect with those stories and I think people really love, [00:04:30] love that and that's what, that's, I think that's the unique thing that Heritage Places can do. They provide a meeting place between past and present, um, and you know, with, with Heritage Places. Events like the drag show we're making new stories here and with an eye to the future So, how did the drag show come about and and is it a collaboration and and why drag? Ever since I started With Rainbow List, [00:05:00] I was really keen to do a drag show and At Old St Paul's, I mean, I had also thought about, I had this vision of drag queens on the veranda of Antrim House, which is the Edwardian building on Bilcott Street in Wellington. That's the headquarters of Heritage New Zealand. I could just see that happening. And I think, for me, that is such a fabulous, overt expression of queer culture and queer life. There's also a really strong drag [00:05:30] scene in Wellington, so it was almost, it was so obvious that that would be a great, um, great project, um, great creative endeavor, I suppose, to have at Old St. Paul's as a way of really activating Rainbow List. Um, so basically, I just got in touch with Willie Smackintosh, um, the drag king. Um, I've been to lots of their performances before, and I said, oh, hey, we've got, you know, this thing called Rainbow List. [00:06:00] Uh, we also have this fabulous venue. Uh, we would really love it if you would meet with us and think about whether you'd like to do a show here. So, um, Willie or Hannah Gordon and, and her wife Em visited us here and it was really fabulous seeing the looks on their faces when they both walked in. I don't think they'd been here before. This is a space that's pretty unassuming and plain from the outside. [00:06:30] And so when you walk in, if you don't know what you're about to see, it's quite visually mind blowing. And I could see when they first walked in, they were just like, Oh my gosh, wow. And I could already see that they could, they were starting to visualize what they could do here. And so for us at Heritage New Zealand, we basically said, we will provide our space for you. Um, this will be like a collaboration, but, um, tell us.[00:07:00] What do you want to do in this space, really? So, the actual show is completely, um, Willy and Co's show. Um, it was really important that we didn't dictate or control what they did. Um, obviously because this is a heritage place we have to be extremely mindful of caring for the heritage fabric. Um, but really, we're not here to tell the drag because, um, crew what to do. They are the experts in [00:07:30] drag. And so they've come up with a show that really interprets this space, which is why it's called Wedlock, a drag show. I just can't wait to see what they've come up with. Over the last year or so, there has been quite a bit of controversy in some parts of society around, not necessarily about drag shows, but around drag story times. Have you had any pushback in terms of putting a drag event on here? Um, [00:08:00] I'm not aware of any to date, and I'm sure that I would know about it. That's definitely something that we did think about. Obviously, this is a church. And for some sectors of society, that might be problematic. But Heritage New Zealand is an organisation. All of our properties are signed up to an initiative called the Safe Space Alliance. So we are absolutely out and proud that our heritage places are safe places for queer people. I would like to think that [00:08:30] will be respected by those that don't share our views. Uh, Basically, um, I'm not expecting anything to happen, but you never know. Um, if, if that was to come to pass, we would be very clear that that kind of bigotry is not welcome in our heritage places. And it must be quite hard, I'm guessing, for the performers over the last year or so, because, I mean, particularly with those, um, drag story time incidents. Yeah, I mean, Willie Willie himself [00:09:00] has been the target of, um, attacks by, you know, the likes of Destiny Church a few months ago, um, for a drag story time. So, um, this was already well underway when that occurred. Um, so, you know, we are, we are well aware of that, but it really just galvanized me and my organization, um, to, you know, there's no way we're not going to do this. Let's put it that way. Obviously, um, it's, you know, a, a potential risk that we're aware [00:09:30] of. And whenever you do an event at a place like this, you, you have to, um, you know, be aware of all manner of risks. This is just another one of them. Um, but I really hope that this, and I know it will be an uplifting and heartwarming experience for Willie and the crew and also the audience, I don't know whether it's too far to say it's a political act, but it's definitely an overt show of support for performers like Willie and the rest of them.[00:10:00] Looking back at the rainbow list, and when you first started that, was that looking at properties that were already on the heritage list, and then looking at it from a kind of, with a queer lens? Uh, yeah, pretty much. So, It really started when one of my colleagues went on one of your walks, actually, and, um, and it might, I think it was for an Architecture Week festival quite a few years ago before COVID, and [00:10:30] she realised that we had a lot of places on our heritage list that you talk about, but we didn't tell those stories, and obviously, um, you know, you could, you know, speculate that that's an overt omission, but I think mostly it's just because there just wasn't that awareness and there wasn't that lens, like you say, that queer lens over it. So we really just thought we have to do this. We absolutely have to do it. And so Carmen's Curios, the shop on Cuba Street, was the, [00:11:00] um, I guess the pilot project for it. Um, so that's the first one we did. Um, and that was really great, very successful. It's really. It's quite easy for us to, um, work with properties that are already on the list because they don't need to go through an onerous listing process, um, which can be stalled by owner opposition and all sorts of other things. It's quite difficult to get things on a heritage list. In a way, that's rightly [00:11:30] so. It shouldn't be easy, but we often don't list things. It's not because they shouldn't be on there. It's because of external factors that stymie our work. Whereas we have the ability to update the narratives, or even a lot of our older listings don't have any historical narratives to go with them. So it's really easy for us to do the research and then retrospectively write up those narratives. So, at the moment, there are 35 list entries under the Rainbow List [00:12:00] theme, all but two of them were existing list entries, and the more that we find out about places having a queer story or history, the more, sort of, what we call upgrades we can do. I would love to do more new listings where the queer story is the reason, or one of the reasons, why it meets the threshold for a heritage place. The first one we did was Dygans [00:12:30] Building in Whanganui, so that's the Charles Mackie building where the shooting occurred when he was being blackmailed for being homosexual. That is the fundamental reason why that is on our heritage list. It's an otherwise pretty unremarkable Edwardian building with a pretty ordinary history. The Charles Mackie story elevates it and it's actually a category one listing which means that's outstanding. That's a hugely important story in our queer history, as you know.[00:13:00] So I would love to be able to do more of those, and we definitely have had nominations for more, but we've run into difficulties with owners who don't want their buildings to be recognised as heritage. It's very frustrating. The other recent one we've got is a building called Home Crafts on Molesworth Street. That's a Chapman Taylor. Walter Chapman Taylor was an arts and craft architect. That was his showroom. It's now a pub called Chapman [00:13:30] Taylor's. Um, and I discovered when we were doing the list entry for that, that, um, a creative called Theodore Trezise owned that for a time and he possibly lived there with his mother. So that's a more sort of, um, that's just a sort of moment in time for that building. His, his occupancy and ownership of it, um, is not sort of, you know, what makes it a heritage place. It's, but it's part of the story. And so that's what we do with Rainbow List is that it's all about storytelling. [00:14:00] So even if, you know, the queer story is not super significant or highly important or long standing, we're We can still make sure it's in the story, or the narrative we tell about a place. Um, It's really important to me that we don't rule out queer stories that seem small or passing. They, they have their place. And I, I, I'm just thinking back to the media coverage around the Charles Mackie building, and, um, Just how significant that [00:14:30] was for rainbow communities to see that, um, queer spaces were being added to this really significant list. Absolutely. So, one of the, um, criteria that, um, means a building can be deemed heritage is social significance. And that is, um, the extent to which a place is significant to present day communities for its sort of historical significance. Um, story or, or [00:15:00] values. Um, it's not that it was socially significant in the past. It needs to be significant now. Um, what I knew when I was doing the Charles Mackey building was that it was undoubtedly historically significant. That's another criteria. But what I wasn't sure about was whether the story of Charles Mackey was connected to that building for queer communities or just communities out there. Did they value this building? today in 2023 when it was listed 24 [00:15:30] because of that Charles Mackie story. It's really hard to get evidence of that kind of social significance because it means it needs to be recorded and that kind of, that kind of connection is often, it's really meaningful for people who hold it in groups but they might not record it for people like me to use as evidence. But what we can do with any heritage listing is that we, we, we publicly notify the listing and that gives anyone an opportunity to have [00:16:00] their say about the listing, whether they think it's correct, um, what it means to them, so on and so forth. And we got so many submissions from queer people saying this is so amazing, this means so much to me. It's so important that queer stories are represented in things like a heritage list because it shows that we have a past and a history. So that, that process of gathering submissions in itself was more than enough for me to say this meets the test for [00:16:30] being socially significant to queer communities today. And that was, that was actually quite beautiful. I really, really, that, that was probably my favourite thing to get out of it. Usually when we get submissions, sometimes they're just a simple yes or no, or, you know, they'll give us useful information, but there was so much rich content, if you like, in those submissions, so much beautiful writing, um, that it's something that's really stayed with me. So is it just limited [00:17:00] to buildings on the list or can it be places? And do those places or buildings still have to exist? Yeah, that's such an interesting question. So no, I mean, the short answer is no, it doesn't just have to be buildings. We have all sorts of, it's basically place based history. So we've got a lot of landscapes, um, we've got monuments, um, structures, you know, we've even got the likes of dog kennels on our list. Um, as well as really vast, impressive landscapes. [00:17:30] Um, so no, it doesn't have to, and if you look at, um, we have special categories for Māori heritage, um, wāhī tapu, which are sort of sacred places, and wāhī tupuna, which are places of ancestral significance. And oftentimes, um, it's the land and the whenua that is where the meaning is held, and there might not be anything obvious to the outsider. But for the people, the iwi, hapū and hapōri, those places are so important, [00:18:00] those landscapes, because they do hold those stories. And that's sort of what you can call intangible history, really. So, so it can be a landscape, absolutely. I think for something like queer history, Having a defined landscape or structure to really hang the story on is very helpful in a way. Um, so, you know, it's, it's immensely [00:18:30] frustrating that so many of Carmen's, um, buildings are no longer with us. Um, the coffee house would have been absolutely perfect for this project. Same with the Evergreen Coffee Lounge. Um, I think it would be a hard ask for us to list the land on which those places stood. There are now new buildings there. That would be a real, real challenge. Um, but [00:19:00] it's also an interesting conundrum because so many of these places have been demolished, you know, and so does that mean that we therefore can't tell the stories of our queer communities because all the spaces they're in are gone? I mean, that's, that's not a good, not a good situation at all. So I think we need to think really carefully and laterally about what constitutes place. And, um, to what extent we can tell stories through a heritage listing of buildings or uses of [00:19:30] buildings that are no longer there. Um, one place that we have had nominated for, uh, Rainbow List, or out of the Rainbow List project is, um, Putangahere Vinegar Hill. Um, in the Manawatu, and that's obviously, you know, a recreation reserve, um, the site of New Zealand's oldest running queer summer camp. That also has a profoundly important place to Ngati Hauiti, the iwi there, and so we are working with them to make sure [00:20:00] that we tell that story, um, alongside the queer story and any other stories that are, um, attached to that place. Um, And when you've got a place like that, that has so many layers, and is so important to um, mana whenua, you don't rush. That, that process. So we're still sort of in the midst of working that out. Um, places I'm interested in are the likes of Vivian Street, Marion Street. So actual streets, because [00:20:30] streets are where life happens. Where so many of these queer stories are. So a question I like to think about is, would the corner of Cuba Vivian or Marion Street itself be, uh, a worthy or valid heritage place. We have old colonial roads on our heritage list. Why can't we have, um, a central city street? Um, Karangahape Road's another example of that. Of course, that's got all the built heritage [00:21:00] there already. So that would be an example of, I guess, more intangible heritage. We are sure you can't necessarily point to this, that, the other building, but it's the street itself where that life happened and still probably happens to some extent. Um, so I think that's absolutely worth exploring. So how can queer communities get involved in what you're doing, which is amazing work? Yeah, so, [00:21:30] I mean, it's up to us to, uh, at Heritage New Zealand to create a project, um, that queer communities feel comfortable sharing their stories with, um, and I hope that we have done that. But basically, if, if anyone out there knows of a place, um, or a community, um, and there's some kind of, um, place based history, queer history, let us know. Like, we absolutely love finding out about new places, and you know, [00:22:00] I've done a lot of research myself in secondary literature. And I've come up with a whole lot of places, but the best thing for me is when I find out about something, they had no clue that it had a queer, queer history. And that's often through people finding out about this project and, and telling me. So, you know, you just need to go to our website, Google Rainbow List, and you can get in touch with us. Um, we are really keen to hear people's stories. And if somebody is wanting to do [00:22:30] a, say, a queer performance or something queer within a heritage space, we just come to you? Yeah, absolutely. So Heritage New Zealand has, we have a whole lot of properties all throughout the country. Um, and they're on our website, so all you need to do is, um, is get in touch with the property itself and say, Hiya. I'd love to do this thing, what do you think? Our properties are there to gather revenue in some cases. So a lot of [00:23:00] the gigs we have here, you know, the performers will pay to use the space. And so that's just something to bear in mind. But I think that so many of our other properties are ripe for queer takeovers. Performers should not be shy in coming forward and seeing if we can make something work. So the Queer Takeover is happening on Saturday the 28th of September 2024 in the Old St Paul's. Are you able to give me a little sneak preview of what we might expect? Yes, so [00:23:30] the show is called Wedlock, a drag wedding, and the MC is Willy Smackintush, the drag king, um, but there are another of other a number of other drag performers in the show So basically it's a drag wedding That's a really Obvious, you know response to this and I just can't wait to see what they do But it's a it's It's an hour or so long performance, um, there'll be a [00:24:00] lot of dancing. I know there's some opera singing. One of the drag performers is also an opera singer. It's very much riffing off the gothic architecture, so it's a bit of a, um, I would say it's a gothic wedding. Um. Um. Attendees are encouraged, if they like dressing up, to dress up. So, you know, wear your best wedding attire. Um, I think it's just going to be an amazing use of the space. I know that it won't [00:24:30] be just, um, confined to a stage at the front. They will be using the whole space here. It will be amazing. Looking back at your time with Rainbow List, what have you, what so far have been your most kind of memorable moments? Uh, I think I, I mentioned earlier, the, um, all the beautiful responses we got to the Diagens building Charles Mackey, um, listing. That was a real highlight. Um, [00:25:00] probably for me, it's those stories that I, just didn't know about through research, um, the new stories that, um, have come to our attention through Rainbow List. Um, so we got, uh, a message from an architect in the South Island who told us about, um, a modernist house in Rangiora called the Archer Tan House, um, that was owned and built by Courtney Archer and his partner, um, [00:25:30] gay men. Um, Courtney Archer was a pacifist. He worked a lot with Rewi Alley. Um, so he's got a very interesting story in and of himself. And I think his partner was Singaporean. So the, the house and also the garden are really important. So that would be such an interesting, um, exploration of to what extent their status as a, as a, um, quietly open but [00:26:00] you know, gay couple, um, at a time when, um, it was criminalized. You know, how we would tell that story and the place is really interesting because the garden is massive and it's all around the house and so if you think about a queer lens on that story, it's a very private place. Um, and I, I think it would be just so fascinating for us to explore the extent to which, um, you could see that House and the Garden as responding to [00:26:30] the circumstances, um, the queer lives of these two men, and what you could make of that, whether that's informed, um, The architecture and, and the garden design, um, we have the home or the batch of Frank Sargison on our list, um, and before we started Rainbow List, that was the only list entry that mentioned anything about being gay or queer. It mentioned that he was a gay man. And he had a little porch added on to that batch that would allow his lover, um, to [00:27:00] I think his name was Frank. Anyway, to come, come in privately and to give them some private privacy and to kind of not be, be seen so much because they had to be careful. And so that's a really good example of the circumstances of queer lives informing the built heritage of a place. So that was an exciting new thing for me to find out. Um, I was also doing some research the other day and discussed, uh, uh, found that the last, um, owner of Plymouth [00:27:30] House, which is now Balcott Street Bistro, um, Ella Plymouth, was understood by her family to probably be what we would now describe as a, as a lesbian. She died in 1958. Um, and of course, we need to be very careful with these stories and to not, um, ascribe identities. That don't fit these people. Um, but definitely I'm excited about exploring her life a bit more. And how that might inform the narrative that we have for that particular building. Because that's a category [00:28:00] one historic place at the moment. Um, but I'm really excited about the prospect of adding Ella's story, um, to that place. So it's, it's really the new stories that come up, you know, you think, there's been such amazing research done in our queer history and you do it yourself, but there's always new, new things to find out, and that's a really cool thing about Rainbow List is that it provides, I think, an opportunity for these stories to sort of get a bit more publicity.

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TITLE: Beacons of Hope 1993
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VOICES: Claire Turner; Eve van Grafhorst; Fran Wilde; Gloria Taylor; John Boyd; Kate Harcourt; Katherine O'Regan; Pauline Gillespie; Sue Bergin; Tom O'Donoghue; Very Rev John Murray
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1990s; Beacons of Hope (Wellington); Bill Mole; Candlelight Memorials; Catherine Tizard; Christianity; Claire Turner; Diana Spencer (Princess of Wales); Elizabeth Taylor (actress); Eve van Grafhorst; Frank Kitts Park; Gloria Taylor; HIV / AIDS; HIV / AIDS; HIV education; HIV stigma; HIV transmission; Hemophilia; Human Rights Act (1993); John Boyd; Kate Harcourt; Member of Parliament; NZAF Ā whina Centre; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; National People Living with AIDS Union; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand Symphony Orchestra; Pauline Gillespie; Peter Duncan; Richard Benge; Ron Rycart; St. Vincent's Hospital (Sydney); Sue Bergin; Tom O'Donoghue; Very Rev John Murray; bisexual; blood; bonfire; faith; friends; gay; hope; human rights; love; needle exchange programme; nurse; nursing; partnership
DATE: 23 May 1993
YEAR: 1993
LOCATION: Frank Kitts Park, 29 Jervois Quay (approx), Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the Beacons of Hope memorial, held at Frank Kitts Park in Wellington on 23 May 1993. Beacons of Hope was the international launch of the 10th International AIDS Memorial commemorations. The memorial's lead organiser was Richard Benge. The New Zealand Symphony Orchestra and Wellington members of the New Zealand Youth Choir performed while people held flaming torches representing those that had died from AIDS-related conditions. Film-maker Peter Duncan filmed the event and has generously allowed the audio from the speeches to be shared on PrideNZ.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: August 2024
TEXT: [00:00:00] Waka kahania o mātou tīnana, kia whai prōuria i mātou kia koutou i ngā wā katoa. E wakarongonei mātou ki tō koutou o prōuria nui. Kia tupuna mai e koutou ngā tōmeirangi o ngā mauri kia mātou, ki mua, ki muri, ki o mātou kaukau. Kia aratapina tō iwi i rotu ngā māwiwitanga o Aotearoa, i rotu te Whanganui ātara. Manaaki te whānau. Te kaha hui auri ki a noho mai rai te karauanatanga o te whaea o te [00:00:30] motu, ki a tauei hoki tō koutou manaakitanga ki a mātou ki te whare a ngā ngā tū tangata o Aotearoa, e hāpaiti anei te ao Māori awhina kahurangitari, o mātou tūroro, kei roto kei o mātou wākāinga, kei roto kei o mātou hōhipira, ngā kai awhina, ngā tāputa o Aotearoa, puta noa ki ngā mauā.[00:01:00] Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa. Good evening and welcome to Beacons of Hope. Popo e te Manukau. New Zealand's response to the 10th Anniversary [00:01:30] International AIDS Candlelight Memorial. I'm Sue Bergen. And I'm Pauline Gillespie, it's a pleasure to act as your hosts tonight for the New Zealand AIDS Foundation as we hear from key people, all significant voices in our collective journey in response to HIV AIDS. Welcome to all of you, to those of us who live with HIV AIDS, welcome. To those of us who love or are friends with people who live with the virus. Welcome to those of us who voluntarily or professionally work to stop the spread of [00:02:00] HIV and in the care of people living with AIDS. Welcome to those of us who come to mourn the parents of children, lovers, partners, family members, to you and to the spirits of the people you hold so close in your hearts. Right now, as we've heard, beacon bonfires are underway along with candlelight ceremonies around New Zealand, and we salute people in Kaitaia, Whangarei, Auckland, Hamilton, Tauranga, [00:02:30] Rotorua, Palmerston North, New Plymouth, Takaka, Nelson, Blenheim, Christchurch, Timaru, Greymouth, Dunedin, Invercargill, and the Chatham Islands, who are speaking similar words at this time. this time. In fact, along with the rest of New Zealand, and as the night continues, the rest of the world, we have gathered here to remember the lives of the people we love who have died from AIDS. We are also here to publicly show our support for all people living with HIV AIDS, demonstrating by our [00:03:00] presence that it is only in a supportive social environment that people can maintain their health. Their basic human rights, access to healthcare information, and professional and community support. And this leads us to recommit ourselves tonight to fight the stop, to fight to stop the spread of HIV. To call for the maintenance of safety. blood products and procedures so the virus is not spread medically. To call for the furthering of needle syringe and [00:03:30] education programs. To respect the work already being undertaken by professionals in the sex industry and call for their education to be supported and to remind all people. This is by practicing safe sex. We begin with a message from the patron of the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. Governor General Dame Catherine Tizett, regretfully Dame Catherine is not able to be with us tonight. Her message is going to be read by Kate Harcourt. [00:04:00] This is a message from the Governor General. In remembering those who have died and those who are still living with HIV AIDS, we should also recall that they would want their lives and experiences to mean something. Lighting a candle this evening should remind us that that the priority must still be to prevent the disease spreading through [00:04:30] awareness, education, and changes in behavior. A cure for AIDS is still distant, but it seems that better management of the disease is now possible. People who have contracted HIV AIDS can look forward to a better life. It is also possible that people with natural immunity to the virus May teach the medical researchers some useful lessons. [00:05:00] These, however, are mere glimpses of silver in what is still a very dark cloud. Beacons of hope, rather than any torch of celebration. Once a year, for the last ten years, candles have been lit around the world to symbolize that HIV AIDS casualties are leaving a spark behind them. We remember. The men, [00:05:30] women, and children who have died and who have left us a legacy of knowledge and love. The International AIDS Candlelight Memorial has been organized for the last ten years by Mobilization Against AIDS in San Francisco. And we can congratulate Paul Bonberg and his team there for organizing tonight in over 50 countries around the world. Sister Paula Brett Kelley from the Wellington Office of the New Zealand AIDS Foundation is currently in San Francisco.[00:06:00] Before she left she was presented with a miniature torch like the ones we'll be carrying tonight, made by the Wellington Torchmakers to give to the organizers in San Francisco with our love. And best wishes from New Zealand. Tonight is truly an international event and we have two messages from overseas sent specially for tonight. The launch of the International AIDS Candlelight Memorial. And don't forget this is a world launch. First of all, from Her Royal Highness the Queen. The Princess of Wales. [00:06:30] As we begin our Sunday here in London, we are thinking of you ending yours in New Zealand. In particular, our thoughts are with you as you begin the worldwide commemoration of the 10th International AIDS Day. Candlelight Memorial. Your beacons of hope begin a chain of light and warmth that will stretch across the globe over the hours ahead. This will provide a focus for remembrance of those lost [00:07:00] to AIDS and hope and prayer for an end to the epidemic. Finally, today is also one to acknowledge the continuing courage and determination of those living with HIV AIDS, their loved ones, those who support them, and others working to prevent the spread of the virus. Arohanui, Diana. The second message is from Elizabeth Taylor. Dear friends, as you launch this month's candlelight memorial events, [00:07:30] please know that although I cannot be with you in your beautiful country, my thoughts and heart are surely there. As we continue to wage the battle against the virus that has claimed the lives of so many of our best and brightest, it's vital that we stand together to fight The blame and prejudice that so often accompany each new diagnosis. Your gathering here today affirms the commitment to life that is every human being's birthright. And your continuing efforts in this fight underscore the strength and [00:08:00] compassion of the people of New Zealand. For your responsibility, your caring, your efforts. And all your hard work, I thank you from the bottom of my heart, Elizabeth Taylor. Beacons of Hope is a Wellington initiative, and tonight's event has received funding through the Arts and Culture Grant Scheme, which is of course administered by the Wellington City Council. Our Mayor of Wellington is no stranger to many of us here tonight. Please welcome Fran Wilde.[00:08:30] Kia ora anō tātou, kai runga raunga te manaakitanga o te wā. Greetings to all of you. who are here tonight at this really special event. It's a special event for us in New Zealand, it's a special event internationally, and we're really privileged to be the first in the world to hold it. This event has grown out of the efforts of [00:09:00] Wellingtonians, of the people of Wellington, organised by the AIDS Foundation. Initially, of course, it was the gay business community and their friends who supported it financially. But now there is a huge array of sponsors, and tonight I've been asked to thank them all very warmly for their support. Too many individuals and businesses to mention individually, but your help is most gratefully received. [00:09:30] In particular, I'd like to acknowledge the presence of the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra tonight for this occasion. I think that is something quite symbolic and, uh, it is going to add to the meaning of our, uh, Um, commemoration tonight. I'm very pleased that the Wellington City Council Cultural Committee was able to help support the symphony to be here this evening. I want to thank the people from the AIDS Foundation who work very hard in their, [00:10:00] in their own, um, Uh, in their own particular work and who branch out of it to bring us all into be a part of what they are doing. They are individuals for whom I have enormous respect and I think it's important that people know how much of their lives they give to their cause. But most particularly tonight, I want to thank all of you. who have come out this evening to be here. Your presence is a testimony to hope. [00:10:30] Your presence is an acknowledgement that the terrible toll which AIDS has taken on our community will be overcome and can be inhibited in the future. But that will only happen when the community as a whole recognises its impact and forms a consensus to take positive action. For the gay community in particular, visibility will be imperative. I believe [00:11:00] that visibility for the gay community will mean that no longer will AIDS be regarded as some, by others, as some sort of embarrassing secret as a subject of prejudice and fear which springs out of ignorance. So your being here tonight, all you Wellingtonians, All of you, in your thousands, as a sign of solidarity, not only of course with the gay community, but of all of those who have HIV or [00:11:30] AIDS. It is your saying to them, kia kaha. Thank you all for coming. It is good to be able to join with you tonight and with my fellow city councillor, Kerry Prendergast. On behalf of the wider community of Wellington. Our next speaker is responsible for introducing into Parliament the current Human Rights Amendment Bill, and has often put herself and Korea on the line [00:12:00] in the fight against discrimination. Please welcome the Associate Minister for Health, Catherine O'Regan. Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa. Beacons of hope, beacons of hope. and candles which will lighten the lives of many ahead [00:12:30] of us. Today, we commemorate those who have died of AIDS. We join with families, with lovers, with friends, throughout New Zealand, who have had to cope with grief, with prejudice, and always with hope. With anguish tonight, we affirm the rights of people with AIDS to be treated in a compassionate way, to be free from the stigma the [00:13:00] disease brings with it, and to live their lives in dignity. Let us ensure that for the future. We speak freely of HIV AIDS without fear and without prejudice. For my part, I shall do all in my power to amend the human rights legislation and all I ask of New Zealanders is for them to open their hearts and their minds to the suffering of those people [00:13:30] and to let prejudice be gone. I salute the families and friends of those with AIDS, and I remember those who have died. Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa.[00:14:00] It's my privilege to introduce the next speaker, Tom O'Donoghue, who is a person who has been living with the HIV virus for some years now. Thank you. Before I let Tom, uh, take, uh, the microphone, I would like just to say a few words on behalf of those who've been working with Tom over a period of years. My name's John Boyd, uh, I'm the manager of the Sexual Health Centre in Wellington. And when I [00:14:30] first, uh, entered into work with HIV AIDS, Tom was one of the main people that who in fact taught me about living with the virus and about how we can support those living with the virus and also how we can help to prevent the spread of HIV here in Wellington. Tom has given an enormous amount over a period of years [00:15:00] to both prevention and support of those with the virus. And it's no exaggeration to say that he is known, loved and respected by all of those who have worked alongside him. Tom's not only given individual support to people living with the virus, he's also worked alongside the many communities who are most affected by HIV. Especially sex industry workers, [00:15:30] trans people, and injectable drug users. And in partnership with those communities, uh, this has led to many initiatives, including now a new initiative, a health based clinic, which will be opening at 282 Cuba Street on the 3rd of June. And this clinic will be owned and run By the communities operating from 282 Cuba Street. And I think it's a landmark event. [00:16:00] And something that will, uh, lead to great strides ahead in our efforts to prevent HIV amongst those communities. What also isn't often appreciated, is that Tom has done an enormous amount of work in other arenas. For example, in connection with Catherine O'Regan, on the human rights legislation and other legislation that it's important to get right to, uh, aid our efforts to [00:16:30] prevent the spread of HIV. Also, Tom has done an enormous amount of work in areas such as prisons. Very difficult areas to deal with. A prime area where HIV transmission can occur. And Tom has been at the forefront there. Also, I've been privileged to work alongside Tom with health professionals. Health professionals do not always act logically. when it comes to HIV. And Tom's [00:17:00] been able to bring his knowledge and expertise to that area, and I've seen enormous changes in attitudes as a result of Tom's work. Tom, without further ado, I'd like to hand over to you. for being with us this evening. Tena koutou.[00:17:30] Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa Good evening and welcome everyone. At last year's AIDS Candlelight Memorial when I spoke, I introduced myself as a person living with HIV. The virus that causes AIDS. A lot has happened since then. I now have AIDS. Friends of mine with AIDS used to say to me, You know Tom, it is different [00:18:00] having an AIDS diagnosis. than being called HIV positive. I never really appreciated why that should be so, but I have a clearer understanding of what they meant now. When I was given my AIDS diagnosis last October, I quickly got hold of the information on the particular illness I had. Boy, was it depressing reading. Statistically, I had 142 days left to live. As you can imagine, [00:18:30] I didn't bother doing any more reading on the topic. But, it was as if the AIDS bogeyman had taken a huge step toward me. Since then, I've had a series of illnesses and spent times in hospital. and had a particularly bad time in January of this year. I had weeks of being tied to machines on drips. Believe me, it was no fun at all. However, thanks to the skills of [00:19:00] the hospital specialists, drug therapies, and the positive support I received from nurses and friends, I'm recovered and I'm doing well. To be honest, I feel better than I have done for the last two years. I think I also now understand more about AIDS. I'm sorry if I'm going to sound a wee bit depressing, but I feel that we need reminding of just what AIDS is about. AIDS is a disease. AIDS is about attitudes, [00:19:30] and AIDS is about a virus. For most of us, AIDS is a devastating disease, socially, economically, and personally. It shatters our dreams. It causes panic and depression. We fear dying young. We fear dying young. AIDS can be a protracted, horrible and unpleasant way to die. [00:20:00] The emotional pain and distress of AIDS can't be alleviated by an injection like some physical pain can. AIDS is different to other life threatening illnesses in that there is an awful uncertainty in how and when it will strike, or how and when it will manifest itself. It strikes us in a diversity of ways. including fungal infections, bowel disorders, pneumonias, [00:20:30] blindness, and unusual and sometimes disfiguring cancers. Often we suffer these illnesses singly or in groups. But quite often, too, we have many or all of them at the same time. I earlier said AIDS was also about attitudes. It's bad enough having to fight daily to stay alive and well, let alone also having to fight the totally [00:21:00] unjustified prejudices and stigma that surround AIDS. Sometimes, of course, This comes from ignorance and fear. But what is inexcusable is having to fight the bigoted attitudes and put up with the insults from people who should know better. Like some government MPs, journalists, doctors, certain community groups and people often held [00:21:30] up as pillars of society. Often these critics of ours act under the guise of Christianity. Yet the question must be asked, why? Why do you so often publicly and vehemently ferment such hatred and malice? It's certainly not my idea of what Christianity is about. Many of us with AIDS have deep spiritual needs, and indeed develop the spiritual [00:22:00] component of our lives rapidly. Yet, many of the groups and institutions that could help us spiritually, and, I might add, be equally privileged in having known us, reject us, and even go as far as saying I must acknowledge though, that there are many people from such groups and individuals from many churches who have worked hard and been very supportive for people with HIV and [00:22:30] AIDS. My recent illness, however, also showed that there are lots of people who just shine through in times of need. My friends, Family and colleagues were wonderful. So too were the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, my GP, the hospital doctors and nursing staff. Two people deserve special mention. One is my partner Kim, whose [00:23:00] situation is is, I'm sure you'll appreciate, a very poignant and sad one. But without his support, I'd never have made it as far as I have. The other person is a very special nurse called Linda. I know I speak for all of us here in Wellington, Linda, when I thank you for your selfless efforts in supporting us, our families. Our partners and friends very often in your own [00:23:30] time and at your own expense, such nurses are worth every dollar the health system spends on them. I'd like to remind everybody that it has been people with HIV and AIDS and those most at risk of contracting hiv aids, who have been at the forefront of the fight against aids. Many of us. Some of us have worked tirelessly, usually as volunteers, and even when quite [00:24:00] ill, to help educate and prevent the spread of this disease. We're often the best educators because we can personalise the issue and put a face to this virus. Some of us like the National People Living with AIDS Union, who I represent, choose to work publicly, acting as advocates and providing representation for all people living with HIV AIDS, to area health boards, government [00:24:30] departments, the minister's office, other community groups, etc. Other people with AIDS, Work quietly among their own circle of friends and families. We all have the same goal though to to educate and prevent the spread of aids. The New Zealand AIDS foundation was the gay men, including those with AIDS response to the epidemic. In the mid 1980s, political foresight encouraged by [00:25:00] people representing sex industry workers and injecting drug users. and setting up community organisations, introducing the world's first National Needle Syringe Exchange Program and promoting safer sex behaviours was another successful community response. These community AIDS groups efforts as peer educators and safer sex and drug using behaviours has kept HIV AIDS among their client [00:25:30] base to a minimum. They are to be congratulated. We must not get complacent. AIDS is here and it's still spreading. Like overseas, heterosexuals, and particularly women, are featuring increasingly in the news statistics. We can stop this disease, but we need your help. You can help by providing a supportive social environment for both people [00:26:00] with HIV AIDS, and by and those at risk of HIV AIDS. People living with this virus deserve to lead socially and economically productive, fulfilling and happy lives. Thank you Catherine O'Regan for your courage and introducing legislation to outlaw discrimination on the basis of disablement. It'll be a big step forward if it gets passed for both our personal and the [00:26:30] public health good. Finally, thank you all for coming here tonight to share with us and commemorate the lives of those who have died. Let us not forget those early and courageous AIDS pioneers, many of whom are now dead. I'm sure you'll know what I mean when I say that all of our lives have been enriched by knowing and or caring for people with AIDS. People with AIDS. These are indeed [00:27:00] beacons of hope for a better world. Thank you. As Tom has just mentioned, the experience of contracting HIV is not unique to one section of our population. It's important tonight and at any time to know that men and women and children are living with HIV AIDS in New Zealand. Claire Turner, [00:27:30] a volunteer with Wellington's Awhina Centre, will read a message from a woman living with AIDS. Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou. Hi everybody. I'm reading a message from a friend of mine. She's too ill to be here tonight. This is her message. If I die, I will want people to [00:28:00] remember my name. But like most women with AIDS, we fear being identified. I am not sure how and when I got HIV. And I don't care. For now, it is love to me that is important. The love for me is so strong. But there's not only love, there's a sadness I feel for a lot of people who do not have the support I [00:28:30] have. They are turned away by parents or friends. If these people only knew what can be achieved by both sides, they'd be so thankful. The support I get from my doctors, nurses and counsellor is very comforting. And the comfort of my family is great. Heterosexual people don't think they can get this far. But if you really think about it, it's not something you'll get because you're in [00:29:00] some category, but because you're somebody, anybody. I feel like screaming my lungs out when I hear that young or older people still say using condoms isn't cool. Because it doesn't feel right. I mean, when is it right? I can't help being angry when I talk about AIDS. To the women listening, I say, Be very careful. Recently I went [00:29:30] to see the whales. They're my favourites. There's something about them, maybe their size or because they're endangered, they fascinate me. I love the sound they make under the water. I love them. It was the most beautiful thing to see these graceful creatures in the water. They made me think of peace. I would like to be at peace.[00:30:00] For several years now, New Zealanders have been lucky enough to have a young person who has shown great courage, not only in fighting HIV AIDS in her own life, but in educating as many people as will listen about support. for people with the virus and about safe sex. No wonder we call her New Zealand's AIDS ambassador. And she's brought her mum along tonight too. Please welcome Gloria Taylor and Eve Van Graffors.[00:30:30] Kia ora, welcome. At the end of April this year, Eve was admitted to hospital again. Not many of you know that. More needles. More pain, the same story goes on. We talked more, this time getting more stressful and scary each time. [00:31:00] These are some of the questions Eve asked. I just want to know why I am so sick in the first place. Why is AIDS taking over my body? You know, With this sickness, sometimes I feel like giving up. I am in so much pain. I just wish everything would go away. I wish I could be a normal [00:31:30] child. During this conversation we had together, Eve being snuggled up into my arms, and both, of us having tears running down our cheeks. I said to her, when you feel like giving up, why don't you give up? And this was her answer to me. Because mummy, we are strong, and all the other people with HIV AIDS [00:32:00] need me because I help them to be strong. I just want to stay alive for So I can live with my family, always, and to help people understand. Here is a ten and a half year old suffering pain each day, who is in the last stages of AIDS, and is not concerned about herself, but of all people. [00:32:30] At the beginning of this year, Eve and I made a mercy dash to St. Vincent's Hospital in Australia to be by the bedside of Bill Mole, a Canadian man who was suffering in many ways associated with AIDS. Especially emotionally. We brought him back to New Zealand, along with his partner, Ron Reichardt, from the United States. To convalesce, but more [00:33:00] importantly, to give them the tender, loving care they needed so badly. These men, are both gay. Our home has had many people from all walks of life with HIV and AIDS. Children, haemophiliacs, Romanian babies, gay people, bisexual people, and no matter what the circumstances are in our home, we are all gay. They will be loved and cared for with the greatest [00:33:30] respect. It is our wish that all of you out there tonight, and the medical professionals, employees, politicians, so adopt the same attitude as we have. Eve is an inspiration to many. But a representative of love, hope, courage and support the world over. And it is Eve's wish to be here tonight, despite her suffering, to share her love and [00:34:00] dedication to you all. I want you, I want you to care for me and all other children that have HIV or AIDS. I love you all.[00:34:30] Thank you Gloria, thank you Eve, and to all our speakers tonight. In a short while we'll begin the second part of tonight's ceremony, Beacons of Hope. The ceremony of fire in memory of the people we've gathered to remember. Now there are some points to remember about the next part of tonight's program. Shortly there will be a procession of flaming torches representing each New Zealander who has died from AIDS in this country. The procession will be accompanied by the [00:35:00] orchestra, and when the music stops and the last bell tolls, you are invited to call the name of a person you wish to remember tonight. There will be fireworks to conclude the ceremony, so perhaps parents could explain this to the children. in case any of them get a little frightened. After the fireworks conclude, please slowly take your torch back for extinguishing to the point where you've got it and try not to all go back at the same time for obvious reasons. We do hope that the orchestra will play an [00:35:30] encore after those fireworks. That will of course depend How loudly you applaud. We would also be very grateful for your donations at the conclusion of tonight's event. And there will be volunteers nearby. For now though, before the orchestra and the choir come on stage, we ask those people who wish to carry a torch tonight to move to the torch station. It's at Shed 6. Over there behind the playground, marshals will instruct you what to do from that point. We will now take a [00:36:00] 15 minute interval for everyone to get into place before we welcome the orchestra on stage. Thank you everybody, kia ora. Thank you. My friends, my friends everywhere, whoever is the god you know, whatever spirit you follow, tonight, [00:36:30] here, and all around the world, We share a common humanity and concern. We share a common call to hope and to love. As we come now, to this moment, where the words have been said, and the sounds played, [00:37:00] to share, silence of the spirit together, to reach out, In memory to those who have died. And in hope that this death may no more be. And that we may together, [00:37:30] bring new things to each other. So I invite you as we share silence and a prayer to reach out to those, your neighbors and take their hand so that in fact, we here may be joined body and spirit in this wonderful moment. Let us share a moment of silence. [00:38:00] God of all living and all loving. Spirit of hope and compassion. In the dark of this night, we [00:38:30] hold close to us, The light of those who have died of AIDS. Our brothers, our sisters, our children, our parents, our lovers, and our friends. In life, will also be each one of us a light to the world. to scatter the [00:39:00] darkness of prejudice and fear around us. May we remain faithful to the memory of those who have died. May the light and love of God's spirit fill us all, body and soul. [00:39:30] Amen.

IRN: 3849
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/georgina_beyber_taonga_powhiri.html
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ATL URL: 
TITLE: Georgina Beyer taonga pōwhiri
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VOICES: Brian Morris; Courtney Johnston; Heather Henare-Coolen; Helena Henare-Coolen; Karen Morris; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Te Herekiekie Haerehuka Herewini
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Arapata Hakiwai; Brian Morris; Carmen Rupe; Carterton; Carterton District; Chrissy Witoko; Claire Regnault; Courtney Johnston; Dancing with the Stars (tv); Georgina Beyer; Heather Henare-Coolen; Helena Henare-Coolen; Howard Morrison; Ian McKellen; Japan; Karen Morris; Louisa Wall; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Mayor of Carterton; Member of Parliament; Miramar; Mount Victoria; Ngāti Mutunga; Ngāti Porou; Ngāti Raukawa; Oxford Union Society; Rongomaraeroa Marae; Stephanie Gibson; Sydney WorldPride (2023); Te Herekiekie Haerehuka Herewini; Te Ā ti Awa; The Masked Singer (tv); The Tragedie of Macbeth (play); Wairarapa; Wellington; William Shakespeare; death; gender; hospice; hospital; icons; promise; sexuality; takatāpui; transgender; whakawahine; whānau
DATE: 19 August 2024
YEAR: 2024
LOCATION: Rongomaraeroa Marae, Te Papa, Museum of New Zealand, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: August 2024
TEXT: My name's Courtney, I'm the Chief Executive, co leader here with Arapata. Um, do you know I got up this morning and I reached into my closet and I did instinctively pull out some sequins to start off with. And I look at that frock now and I regret my decision. Um,[00:00:30] I guess since Steph and Claire, um, started talking to Arapata and I about this opportunity to bring these pieces and symbols of Georgina's life into Te Papa, to sit alongside other icons. And to tell these stories of these strong women in Aotearoa. And then when Steph and Claire shared with us [00:01:00] some of the taonga that you'd be bringing on with you today, I've been thinking a lot about how people can be both icons and private people. And you can be a trailblazer. Who's out there in your sequins and speaking in Parliament and dancing on Dancing with the Stars. And you are standing for yourself but all the people around you. And there is that part of an icon. And then there is [00:01:30] the intimacy. of their life and the sides of them that maybe they don't show to everyone and the stories that not everyone will know that haven't been in the Women's Weekly or on Radio New Zealand. And I think the great gift of what you brought on with you today, is that in this simple group of items from a person's life, it [00:02:00] tells both of those stories of someone who was iconic and a public feature, a person who opened doors and opened minds in this country, and took all the heat that came with that as well, because sometimes I think of sequins as being armour in their own way. Um, and a person who, I am guessing, was also soft and tender in their own ways and had their [00:02:30] privacy and their things that they shared with those who were close to them. And that you come on with her today and that speaks of your closeness and your care. Right through her life. And I always think when someone comes into Te Papa, their life goes on in that way. Um, to care for [00:03:00] someone means to care for them forever and ever. Amine. Love does not stop. Death is a door we walk through and love goes on. You bring these taonga today with love to us and we accept them, I hope, with that same love and that promise to be both joyous and diligent. in our care of what [00:03:30] you have entrusted to us to walk alongside you and telling Georgina's stories and all the stories of the people who she stands for. And I speak for all of my colleagues here and our commitment to walking that path. with you while Georgina shines over us and watches what we do together. So [00:04:00] thank you for the trust that you're placing in us and for the doors that you're continuing. To open for people here in Aotearoa. Part of the Pōwhiri process, you would have heard a lot of te reo Māori being spoken and so I've just decided to translate some of the important points [00:04:30] that were offered during the Pōwhiri and so our Kaihautu, um, Dr. Arapata Hakiwai, um, in his kōrero, he talked about how Georgina's memory will never be forgotten. And so this is part of that important process of remembering people of importance to our nation. And in Brian's kōrero, Georgina's brother in law, he talked about although Georgina had been born biologically male, in her essence she [00:05:00] was female. And so Brian also acknowledged that they had taken Georgina's ashes to Mount Victoria and they had presented them to the heavens. And so I, I just wanted to, um, capture that for us, because I know, um, there are people that don't speak Maori and I just wanted to make sure that you understood what was being spoken. Um, and I want to, um, invite Malcolm to come and do a, a presentation. offer a few words, [00:05:30] as many words as you like. Malcolm is an icon of the gay community, gay, lesbian, transgender community in Wellington. And, um, he's had many places that offered safe spaces for people to share. So, kia ora, Haruma. Oh, wow. Uh, kia ora koutou katoa. It's an absolute honour for us to be [00:06:00] handing over the taonga here today for our dear friend Georgina Beyer. It's important for our rainbow community to acknowledge her lifelong achievements in life and in the minds of our people. The treasures we koha, um, I give them with the deepest aroha. And the deepest respect that will be the kaitiaki of [00:06:30] you people. Nga mihi.[00:08:30] Please come to the table. So I'm Courtney Johnston, I'm the Chief Executive, the co leader here at Te Papa, and we've just gathered on Rongomaraeroa this afternoon, uh, to receive a donation of, uh, photographs. awards, a banner, a couple of frocks, and other pieces from the life of Georgina Beyer. [00:09:00] And, uh, Malcolm Vaughn, and, uh, I was, uh, one of the, well, the chief executive for Georgina Beyer's estate, and, um, we're so pleased that we're handing this, this, uh, uh, taonga over to Te Papa, um, for the safe katiaki, um, of her belongings, knowing that it'll be kept in the mines. Georgina will never be forgotten. Why is it significant for Georgina's collection to be here at Te Papa? Well, I just think it's really, really important that, uh, her taonga comes here, so that she is remembered for [00:09:30] the achievements she made in life. Um, a lot of stuff has gone to the archives, um, but it's her personal stuff, which is like the photos, the awards, the things like that, the banner, um, that people can view, perhaps in the future, and remember who she was, and keep up to date with the inroads that she made in life, that she made, um, other people feel comfortable for. So it's really important that it comes here. So it's going to be looked after for eternity. And I think we, we think about Georgina and her place as a New [00:10:00] Zealander and as a public figure and as a trailblazer and as a member of the community, um, for whom visibility is so important because visibility, if I've learned anything working with the gay and queer community, it's that visibility creates safety. Um, and I think that's something I've, I've learnt in this role and think about a lot when it comes to working with communities who have at times, or continue to experience forms of discrimination or hatred or, [00:10:30] or of a, you know, A repression of their identity. And then I think for Georgina as well, as a strong woman leader in New Zealand, and to sit alongside other pieces of people's lives that we have in our collection, like Chrissie Witako, and like Carmen, and to, You know, museums are here, we, we bring things together to tell stories, to tell a rich and dynamic story of a community and of life in New Zealand. One of the [00:11:00] stunning things for me about Georgina is not only the, the local impact, she's had the national impact, but also the international impact. I mean, she has such mana overseas. Yeah. I think, um. That's the beautiful part of it for us, is being able to work with a person's life and legacy and find more and more ways to share it and keep it alive over time as well. I think that's what bringing a museum in to help with minding the legacy and to share some of the [00:11:30] load of caring for a person like that. I'm so conscious that so much falls on the estate of somebody who is loved in many different ways and many people have an interest in as well. I think that's a way that we can help to, in a very pragmatic way, as well as caring for the collections, we can help care for some of that interest that exists in a person as well. It's just been over a year since Georgina passed, and it's a bit hard to talk about what kind of legacy is that, that kind of close to her passing, but what do you think [00:12:00] Georgina's legacy is going to be? Um, I just think it's just the power that she had. She was afraid of nobody. She stood up. She had the guts and conviction. And I think she was, um, instrumental in making a lot of people feel safe and secure about their sexuality. Um, bringing a lot of people into their own environment and making them feel safe. And I think that's one of the things that she's going to be remembered for. Yeah, no, I, I agree entirely to be bravely yourself, but bravely yourself in, in the effort to [00:12:30] uplift those around you as well. And just finally, Mal, um, what's it been like for you today to, to bring Georgina's taonga here? It's really important for me, actually, and for Scotty and Helena and Heather. It's one of those things that we made promises to Georgie, she was our dearest friend, and we were going to make sure that whatever she wanted done, we were going to do. And we've done that, and today is the end of that, that final end [00:13:00] piece of doing all the things she wanted. And getting her possessions here to Te Papa is the final straw. So it's quite good to be quite honest. It's, um, it's been a long drawn out process, but we've achieved everything that Georgina wanted, and I think that's really the most important thing. It's the, um, getting to our place phenomena, I think. You can be at destination and yeah, the pulling, pulling up on the final day is a big deal. Kia ora, my name's Helena Hinare [00:13:30] Colin. Um, we're here, um, passing over the taonga for Georgie. And it's, it is, it's such a privilege and it's so important because they're going to be the kaitiaki going forward. They're going to be the guardians and they need to look after these treasures. So, um, you know, so people from right across the world are going to, uh, you know, [00:14:00] experience and understand and learn about, um, What a wonderful, amazing woman she was. And all the different facets of her, you know, because there's so many different facets to her. Can we just have a look at some of the taonga that have been brought in today, and can you describe for me what we've got here? So, uh, we've got the Dancing with the Stars, um, portrait of her and her, um, co dancer, um, which she was very proud of. [00:14:30] Um, and then we've got, um, many photos of different icons in our community, but also, um, You know, there's a picture of, uh, Howard Morrison and Georgie and various people who have now passed over who, um, Georgie treasured that, those relationships and those people that she, and Carmen, of course, um, and there's, um, some of her dresses, um, and, um, some of the awards that she won, and then there's, um, [00:15:00] um, numerous, um, albums of her life and her journey. Um, as you can imagine the, um, the treasures for Georgie were, were vast, um, and we think that, um, she belongs here and the, and her, um, this whole ceremony today has been, um, such a credit. To Papa and the fact that it's been so well received and so [00:15:30] fully participated in that, um, that it's a, it's a, it's a final journey for us in terms of the executive, um, but it's, it's lovely to share it with people who are going to take her on her next stage of her journey. And, um, and the chief executive recognized them, um, the many, um, personalities of Georgie, who she represented and I guess what, um, for Helena and I, [00:16:00] Georgie, um, was a friend. She was a auntie to our moko, um, and we had a very personal relationship with her in that way and the fact that we cared for her at the hospital in her final stages and we, We treasured, um, being given that role by her, um, to be so close to her at her, the end of her journey. And to, to, um, then bring her to the next stage of her journey going [00:16:30] forward. Um, cause she's not just a New Zealand icon, she's She's a world icon and having her here means that those people that know her across the world are going to be able to come here and see her and, and be able to pay respect to her, um, like, um, yeah. I think the most important thing is the last part of her journey, we were in the hospice and we, we slept beside her, um, for the last period of her life. And [00:17:00] she, she said, um, to the nurses in there that she felt safe. For me, that was the greatest thing I could have heard. Um, because she wasn't afraid. Um, she made the decision. Um, and it was really important to us to honour her as our whānau. Many years ago she invited us, well six years ago, she invited [00:17:30] us as her whānau party over to Oxford Union. Um, where she spoke and it was amazing, it was such a privilege. And yeah, we stood behind her and we believed in her and most importantly we loved her. We loved her as a part of our family and our moko miss her like crazy today. Um, I was just talking about the very last memory of the kids standing on the windows so waving goodbye to her as she got in the [00:18:00] ambulance at home and um, And they were like, oh, Aunty Georgie's so lucky, she's getting a ride in the ambulance. You know, it was amazing. So for us it's, yes, she's a lot of things, but most importantly she was our family. And that's what we miss the most. We miss her. Her as a beautiful woman. Yeah. One of the beautiful things about a lot of these photographs that we're looking at now [00:18:30] is that, um, she's really part of the community. It's not just solo Georgie. And I, you know, I reflect on, on what Georgie was able to do in terms of like a real fighter, real activist, but it was all about bringing other people through, bringing other people with her. It wasn't about Georgie. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, She said something to me once, and that was, um, you know, she had been elected, um, her position in parliament, [00:19:00] and she was there representing the people, and she said, even if I don't fundamentally agree with them, that's, my role is to represent them. You know, I've been put there to represent their views, so, and she held that really close, and I respected that so much. Because, you know, often there was polarizing views on, on things, and so, yeah, um, you talk to people over there, and yeah, she was a huge icon in the, in the Waitarapa community. I [00:19:30] mean, she really put the Waitarapa on the map, really. Yeah, internationally as well. You know, like, that's what was so strong. Um, and it was so brilliant that her last public performance was to do the speech for the Pride Parade. Yeah, And she actually got to hear that, Louisa. Louisa Wall, the last day before she, um, well she [00:20:00] came home with us for one night and then went into the hospital and then went to hospice. But Louisa Wall had rung her and she said, oh my gosh Georgie, you're a total hit. And like, like Georgie, it was amazing. And that was the point at which Georgie said, You know, actually I've got some news and I'm not great and, um, but it was so significant. Her last public event [00:20:30] was that postcard from Aotearoa. It was wonderful. Yeah. It was stunning and, um, and you know, she had her sense of humour right up till the end. I remember, um, um, what's his name from, um, From, um, Oh, Ron Mark? No, no, no, no, no. She was talking to, um, Oh! Yeah, he was an MP. Um, he was the minister for, um, Ministry of Justice, the courts department for many [00:21:00] years, um, his name will come to me probably about three o'clock in the morning, but he had just passed anyway, and she said, well, I'm doing much better than he is, and that was just such a Georgie comment where we all laughed, and we thought, you know, here she is on her last deathbed, but she's still got that passion to crack a joke, and it was kind of funny, because a number of times we thought, oh, she's about to take her last breath, and then she'd go, Can you take me for a cigarette , and to we'd wheel her, wheel her up [00:21:30] to the door and light her a fag. And Yeah. Um, yeah. And it was a beautiful time for her. She, like I say, she wasn't frightened. No. Um, she, she made her own choices Yeah. In her life. And, and it was our role to honor, you know, those choices. Um, yeah. So we, we felt very humbled. Um, to be able to, to take that journey with her, yeah. One of the sad things I remember, oh, when she was first, uh, went public around about the, [00:22:00] about the kidney, and, and it was looking quite, quite, um, you know, imminent that she might pass. And I got the sense that she didn't know how much people admired her, how much people loved her. Absolutely. How was she in the end? I mean, did, did she, did she know that, that she was such an icon? Um. Yeah, I think so, but you know, She felt passed over. Yeah, there was times I guess when she left Parliament, you know, there [00:22:30] was a bunch of people, you know, that when she was in, She was all that, but, you know, let's be honest, um, you know, we set up a Givealittle, and I was really disappointed that people didn't respond. Um, I'm not talking necessarily about our community, but, you know, like, she achieved some significant stuff for, for New Zealand, you know, on the world stage. And I do have an expectation that, um, especially Parliament should have [00:23:00] Put their hand up a lot more than they did. She was a highly intelligent person. Like, her ability to manage and to be, to run things as, like, completely above board. And, I mean, she had every receipt from her parliamentarian days. The whole thing, you know, like she, She, she ran a very tight ship and she, she should have been given a posting of some significance that recognised, A, her skills, [00:23:30] her ability to, um, practice diplomacy when she needed to, when she, and to, um, be able to get up and do a speech off the cuff. You know, she never ever wrote a speech. She never wrote it down. Every single speech she ever did was. Straight from her heart. And those skills weren't recognised and she was bypassed and she felt, and she was abandoned, you know. She had no money, she was in a little [00:24:00] housing New Zealand flat. Um, and she had those people, you know, the few that were around her that were there with her on her final journey. Um, We cared for her, you know, we, we took her food, you know, and that was not, I felt that was really degrading for her, you know, I felt like that she shouldn't have been, that shouldn't have been how her life ended up. Yes, she might not have always made the right decisions, but we, we don't all make the right [00:24:30] decisions. Um, and, and, and probably as a community we should have fought for her more. But there was a lot of disappointment about the way in which, and I think she knew that she was loved. And the fact that she was loved by, she, you know, she went every Monday to Mallin Scotty. She came to us every other weekend, you know, she had Lou. She had, you know, people around her and, and we were her people to whom, loved her as family. But she felt [00:25:00] bypassed by, by, by those people. The government by, you know, they rolled her in when they wanted her to manage the hard stories or be there to be the person who they can take photos of and, but then they didn't bother the rest of the time, and they should have bothered, they really should have bothered, you know, because she, she was, you know, if she can be, if she was a world icon, and we were still treating her like that. You know, it wasn't okay. Yeah, and I think at the memorial, you know, [00:25:30] like, you heard from Peter, uh, people like, um, you know, Sir Ian McKellen, like, Georgie stayed with Sir Ian when, um, when she went over to speak at Oxford Union. She spoke out at Cambridge as well. And like, um, They had huge respect. People like him had enormous respect, because he's also been an incredible fighter for, you know, our rainbow rights over the years, and, you know, he, he acknowledged her, and so there was, [00:26:00] there was a lot of people who loved her, and a lot of people who respected her, but I think, um, yeah, there was, at the end, I, I do think she felt a Uh, bypassed, yeah, yeah, definitely. She knew she was loved, and she knew she had great skills, great abilities, um, highly intelligent, very capable, but she felt that those skills weren't recognised or picked up by this [00:26:30] country, and that she, in the end, became the token person. Um, and that wasn't acceptable. You know, it wasn't acceptable. I mean, we used to manage, I don't know why we ended up managing her diary a lot of the time, but we ended up managing her diary half the time, and I'd be like crazy busy, and there'd be someone saying, well, we need Georgie to be, and I'd say, well, what do you mean you need, so what does that mean? Like, what does that mean in terms of, is there a koha, are you going to send a taxi for her, are you going to make sure she gets home in a taxi, [00:27:00] um, you know, like, is, is she going to be cared for, she can't be standing up for a long period of time, like, who's looking after her, all of that kind of stuff, because people just used to take the piss, you know, and she'd be getting in a little car, driving all the way to Hastings to do something, you know, and she'd have no money, you know, um, and probably a classic example is on, um, that last, Show, TV show she was on. The Masked Singer. Like, we were horrified. She was so, [00:27:30] so unwell. And she was struggling to get that, the mask or helmet thing. I was screaming at the TV, I was fucking hoping for that mask or thing, because it was so You know? And, you know, why, why didn't she have somebody alongside her to care for her? She was so, so unwell. But, do you know what? She would roll herself out, and she would paint on a smile, and she would Do things. And she did so much for nothing, like, especially for our community. People used to ask her all the time, and this is [00:28:00] what Heather was saying, like, you know, people didn't understand. She didn't have the money for even the bus at times. You know, so people assumed, oh, well, we'll get Georgina by. How the heck is she going to get there, you know? So, what I think, there's a lesson in it for us. I think for our community, you know, we We need to look after the kaumatua in our community and the kuia, you know, and we need to, like, wrap that, you know, [00:28:30] that love, that, that, you know, whakawhanaungatanga, that manaakitanga around them. And, like, as our, you know, a lot of our key people are getting older, we need to be looking after them. And so that's my plea to our community is Don't just hold them up when it's important to show them as, you know, what they've achieved and fly the flag. Like, get in behind them, like, and [00:29:00] truly support and love them. Yeah. Oh, Kilda. My name's Karen Morris and I've been privileged to attend a special function here at Tepa, um, where we have handed over, um, Georgina Buyers Treasures and Photos and Special Tonga, um, to be entrusted by, to Tepa, and it's been wonderful to be a part of this day. And Brian, [00:29:30] you were speaking at the Pouwhiri, could you just give me a sense of what you said? Um, well, the first thing about the Pouwhiri is that it's really quite, there are formalities. And so, In speaking on behalf of the group that came, it's just really being aware of what those formalities are. So one, to acknowledge, first of all, what's already been said, the words of welcome from the Te Papa speaker. And then [00:30:00] secondly, to be able to acknowledge also the group that has brought those personal effects of Georginas because I'm really agreeing to speak on their behalf as well. And so, I guess in essence, what I talked about was, there were a couple of things. One, to the main speaker, Te Papa, he and I are related by whakapapa. So, part of it was also to, [00:30:30] reply to him, but also to let him know our connection to Georgina because he may not have known. And so one is to acknowledge that. Also, also to talk about the first time when we actually met Georgina, which was probably 40 years ago now. And I, what I said there that Georgina, um, prior to meeting Georgina, the information that we had about, uh, Georgina. that Karen had [00:31:00] was that she had a brother. And then when we met Georgina for the first time, Georgina was a woman. And so I mentioned that as well as that. So we had only ever known Georgina as a female. And so that was probably one thing. I think the other thing too was just to also acknowledge the, the whakapapa connections through Taranaki. Georgina's connections. Again, so that the people on the other side are aware of [00:31:30] those things. So a lot of it is really about making people aware of things that they may not know. Um, I suppose the other thing too was, um, I actually mentioned that Karen and I, we were, we were thinking about today, this morning, and one of the things that, um, Um, came to mind was a, a, well, a well known quote from Shakespeare's Macbeth, which, um, you know, talks about a [00:32:00] person's life, you know, that we are a player, uh, that struts and frets, yeah, in their hour upon the stage, you know, and then when that hour is up, they move off the stage. So we, we talked about that and, um, Because I was speaking in Māori, so I had actually, um, you know, I translated the Shakespeare into Māori, you know, to, to, but yeah, that was me, you know, so [00:32:30] what is it? Life is like a moving shadow, yeah, where the poor player, you know, struts and frets. upon the stage, you know, you know, in there out, you know, so I think, um, that was one thing that we had shared this morning, Karen and I, when we were talking about, you know, in reflection, you know, a person's life is what it is. And, um, in this case, you know, we always saw Georgina as someone who [00:33:00] enjoyed The stage, you know, in whatever form. And, you know, I mean, you know, whether it's the political stage, whether it's, uh, the actual stage of performance, it's still a stage that, where one can, uh, play out their role. And so So that's, that was something that we reflected on. So, it was just something else. And of course, I'd let the people know that we had, um, been [00:33:30] part of releasing Georgina's ashes as well, out at, um, Maupuia, uh, in Miramar. Uh, you know, just so that they knew that, you know, these are things that have already been done, and so this is another part of that. Especially for Georgina's closest friends, which is the gay community. Can I take you back, say, 40 years, and can you describe what it was like meeting Georgina for the first [00:34:00] time? Oh, wow, that's a long time ago. Um, it, it was a really special occasion because I not only met Georgina for the first time, um, but I met. My birth father, our birth father. So it all took place at the same time, as well as meeting our birth father's family. So there were a lot of, yeah, a [00:34:30] lot of people to meet first time. But as Brian had mentioned, I always knew growing up, by my adopted family that I had an older brother and so I just had imagined this older brother in a similar vein to me. They'd be tall and strong and sporty, um, which is all the things that I was interested in and when I first, um, met Georgina, actually prior to meeting her I had seen a photo of her and the [00:35:00] photo I saw of her was the one I carried in today. That's the very first time I saw my brother. And this beautiful young woman is looking at me, and I'm thinking, oh my god, she's more feminine than me. She was just gorgeous in that photo. And then when I met her in person, um, I've only ever had a sister. I never knew her as a brother. She's always been my sister. So, it was a very special weekend that we met for the first time, and then, um, [00:35:30] we would catch up with her on occasion in the coming years. Um, so that's, yeah, that was that 40 years ago. Another, um, really significant moment was last year at Georgina's memorial. That must have been um, I can't imagine what that must have been like for you as a whānau being there. It was very special to be there and, um, a number of whānau from both our mother's [00:36:00] side of the family as well as our father's side of the family attended and we all sat together. So that was, that was really special, um, because, you know, for us she was whānau. Didn't mean that we spent a lot of time together, but she's whanau and for my children that were there This is their auntie And so it was a really moving occasion and to listen to all the speakers from people that knew her better than we did It [00:36:30] was really lovely to sit there and to to be a part of all of that to celebrate her life So, um, yeah, it was a really moving evening for all of us that, um, were there representing her whanau. One of the things that really strikes me about Georgina is the impact she's had locally, nationally, but also internationally. You know, she has such mana overseas. Yeah. I think, you know, something that, you know, we came to [00:37:00] realize, I guess, when she, um, appointed Mia. In Wairarapa, Carterton, on, I think it was in the 1996, we, I had just got a job here in Wellington and so we moved from Hawke's Bay to Wellington and um, we decided we would come through the Wairarapa and we'd call in and see the new mayor. of uh, South Wairarapa. And so [00:37:30] we got to Carderton and we found out where the, the council office was. We parked outside and we had, we had all our children with us, so we've got five children. And um, it was really interesting because the day that we walked in there was a film crew from Japan. They were filming because of the international interest that was there. And um, you know, we walked in, Georgina was, you know, Holding court there, uh, at the front desk. And, [00:38:00] um, we walked right into this. There was a Japanese film crew. And then, you know, I think Georgina may have seen Karen or seen us. And she just moved around and turned around and she said, And this is my whanau, as though we arrived on cue. And we became part of this performance, if you like. You know, and so, you know, I mean, I think then, you know, it was to realise that here's a crew from Japan, uh, don't necessarily [00:38:30] understand English, but the interest was that Georgina was the first transgender Mia. To become mayor in anywhere. So I think that was, you know, something that we realized, you know, what it meant, you know, not just locally, but what it meant nationally and globally. And, um, you know, and then from there, after our arrival here in Wellington, you know, there were all these occasions where there was another new story. [00:39:00] That followed on in this first of firsts. Yeah, so, I think, yeah, you know, you were aware of that, and our children, I think, grew up, you know, knowing that as well. That this was something that was really special. And I think, um, you know, it's, it's really has to be acknowledged. It's, it's probably, you know, not, it's significant or it's significance probably would come and go with us, you know, because as [00:39:30] you say, as Karen's already said, we didn't have the day to day contact with Georgina that others had, you know, it was really just occasional. Um, And, um, you know, and, and, you know, uh, occasions that were quite, you know, few and far between. And so, you know, that's, that's just how it was. But even so, as, as Karen's already said, you know, Georgina is still whanau. And our, our children, you know, [00:40:00] we, I think the last time we got together with Georgina was when, um, uh, Her uncle, Cyril, passed away. He was the last one of her uncles, um, passed away and we went to Taranaki and we all had dinner, uh, during that time. And I think it was really, two of our daughters were there, and they were the ones, because they were sitting opposite Georgina at the table, because they wanted to engage in conversation.[00:40:30] And so, you know, in the end they, they, they, I think Georgina may have said something like, oh, you know, it's just me here, and I might have been a comment about whānau. And they, you know, they reminded her, they said, well. You're our auntie, you know, and I think, you know, it was sort of something that she may not have actually thought about What they said to her, you know, you're our auntie, you know, and I think you know It was it was an interesting time One that they were they were [00:41:00] old enough to be able to say that to her and basically in a way Not, you know, they weren't they weren't telling her off, but they were reminding her, you know, that They were Good You know, part of her and um, they wanted her to know that, you know, that not to feel as though that they were strangers. You know, sitting across the table, you know, so, you know, those things, I think, for us, you know, that's always been more important. [00:41:30] Whānau is more important, so, yeah, it's, I guess, you know, those are the things that come to mind. Now, today we saw the gifting of some of Georgina's taonga to Te Papa. And I'm wondering, what is your wish for the taonga that are held now within Te Papa? What is your wish for that taonga? They've been entrusted to Te Papa, um, [00:42:00] and they have received them with such great respect, and they will honour her through their care of her taonga, and the way that they will share and make available to the public, um, to be able to, um, participate in Georgina's life through her taonga. Lots of photos, there were photo albums, photos, um, a particular garment that was special for, for Georgina. So [00:42:30] it tell, they tell a story about this remarkable person, you know, and so to have it all entrusted to Te Papa, is a safe place, um, because the story will live on.

IRN: 3847
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ATL URL: 
TITLE: Evergreen Legacies: a Whakawāhine Herstory
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VOICES: Adam Dehaar; Jochanelle Pouwhare; Kay Jones; Leilani Sio; Saviiey Nua
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; 2020s; Adam Dehaar; Alfies 2; Amanduh la Whore; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bloomers Review (Alfies); Carmen Rupe; Chrissy Witoko; Des Cooper; Doodle Inn; Evergreen Coffee House; Georgina Beyer; Jochanelle Pouwhare; Kay Jones; Leilani Sio; Marion Street; Renee Paul; Saviiey Nua; The Boy, The Queen and Everything in Between (tv); Vivian Street; Wellington; Wellington Museum; gay; toasted sandwich; transgender; whakawahine
DATE: 10 August 2024
YEAR: 2024
LOCATION: Wellington Museum, 3 Jervois Quay, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: August 2024
TEXT: Kia ora koutou, ngā mihi nui. Welcome to Te Waka Huia Wellington Museum. My name is Leilani Sio, and I'm a Public Program Specialist for Wheako Pōneke. Saviiey is going to be co facilitating with me. Saviiey is the Director of the Ngā Uri o Whiti Te Rā Mai Le Moana Trust, which is an amazing Pasifika Māori trust based out in Waitangirua, Porirua.[00:00:30] What do you do there? What do you do there? What don't you do? But you're on heaps of boards as well, like. You work for Inside Out, I can't keep up with you. You're on the Wellington Pride Festival board. You're the co chair, weren't you? I don't, I don't think this is, like, appropriate to be talking about myself because I'm here as a sex worker. Um, and so it's great to be present in this space, um, amongst these two amazing people. And it's also good to see a few of my sisters that I grew [00:01:00] up with here. Um, in Wellington City. I'm born and bred out in Purirua, so Māno, Lāwhanui, Saifua, Māne, Lāngia, Māmā. Um, I'm of Samoan and Māori descent. I also whakapapa back to Ngāti Porou. Um, so I am here in the capacity of just the facilitator. My other hats, don't even worry about them, they're not important. If you want to know what I do, then please look me up. [00:01:30] But obviously I'm not on TV shows like my two, my two aunties here on this side. So they beat me to it. But yeah, it's lovely to be here, lovely to see you all. And yeah, mauri ora ki te whare. Kia ora whanau. Um, welcome. I love it. It's going to be fabulous. Um, so, Ngāi Tūhoe te iwi, Ngāti Haka Pātihuhu te hapū, Um, Ōhine Mataroa [00:02:00] te awa, Ko Waiōhau te marae, Ko Jason ā tōku ingoa. I'm happy to be here. I'm living for this because I think it's missing in today's generation. Um, and to, I'm so grateful for the opportunity to share my journey, but also to be able to acknowledge the shoulders that I stand on that have helped shape who I am today. I'm so grateful for this opportunity from Leilani and the Museum and Sister Saviiey. Yeah, we'll get further on that later. But kia [00:02:30] ora and welcome. Kia ora everyone. So, um, I'm glad that they're speaking French. It's a wig. You know what, I forgot that word. Um, so my name is Adam Dehower. I'm also a performer, known as Amanda Lahore. I'm from Waikato, and Maori descent. My father's French and my mother's Maori. Um, [00:03:00] like Jochanelle said, it's an absolute honour and a privilege to be part of such a prestigious event. event, being able to relive some of the whakapapa and some of the history of our LGBTI community. I was saying to the girls outside, it's very interesting listening to young people and they talk about RuPaul's Drag Race, yes queen, yes girl. What I think a lot of the younger generation don't realize is we had [00:03:30] that in our New Zealand history. We had the RuPaul's, and there wasn't just one, it was many. We had a hierarchy, which I'm sure the girls are going to touch on. We had a sense of sisterhood, and a sense of true love and mana and dignity and integrity about our community. And as you, you'll find out, as we kōrero, um, it wasn't easy to be out in your LGBTI community, especially when you're [00:04:00] transitioning. Thank you for listening. So, to be able to sit here and listen to this korero, Jochanelle and I were lucky enough to share, um, our lives together for seven weeks and I grew so much as a person. I learned to understand and appreciate. She talks about standing on the shoulders of these amazing human beings. I learned to understand them from a distance and from a cultural perspective and it made me so proud and you can see on our television show. [00:04:30] Jochanelle and I had a symbiotic connection because we lived those lives. So what you see on television has actually lived experiences from our Tuana. So thank you very much for coming. I didn't realize there were gonna be so many. I would've done my ear, but thank you so much for coming, Gilda. Okay, so Sammy's gonna start off the Cordero with, uh, Jochanelle. Um, yeah, me. [00:05:00] Also, for those of you, I'm going to introduce her as Antia. For those of you who don't know, um, our name for Jochanelle back in our days, because we're the younger generation, we're the last of the, the Roti Queens back on Marion Square. Those of you who know, know. Um, those who don't know, please go take a visit. It was a tourist, it was a tourist attraction. And the lady still stands on the corner painting. [00:05:30] She does, she does. Um, but my question is in regards to, obviously, we, we'll get to your whole journey in general, Aunty, but it's just more along the lines of where did you grow up, um, and talk about your journey and your upbringing. Okay, so I, I, I hail from, I'm a child of the mist, um, in Whakatane in Bay of Plenty, um, I come from a very weak family, and my brother, my father had, [00:06:00] um, I think there was Would have been 18 brothers and sisters if them, two of them lived, but 16 lived. Um, we were all to this day, very close. It's huge. I've got, um, I'm the second eldest of nine siblings of my own. Um, we grew up very pōhara, which means, you know, we were, like today, the struggle was real, for a lot of families out there. But, um, my [00:06:30] father was a black power president. Um, I was born in 1972. Um, that's when I saw the, saw the light. And then, um, what else can I say? Oh, so we've been very surrounded. I grew up surrounded by my grandparents on both sides. So, but Can't imagine being born, whakawahine, not knowing it then, so, um, you know, I was [00:07:00] spoilt by all the aunties. And I know a lot of the sisters will agree that a lot of the aunties will, you know, gravitate towards us little sissy, sissy girls back in the day. And, um, but here's the ironic thing. My grandmother, my father's mother, who was matakite, was very spiritual. She, she to my mother. When I was, she was carrying with me, and you're going to have a girl. And when I came out, my father goes, Mom, you were wrong. And she said to him, No, you're still going [00:07:30] to have a girl. She's going to be a girl. Well, you know, I was born, so I got told this later on in life. And, um, I suppose it would have been quite confronting. My father seeing this little child, his oldest at that. He ended up having, you know, seven more children. I don't know. But his oldest, to be, being a boy, born a boy, I was never a man, I was always just a boy. And then, um, to becoming effeminate. And so, [00:08:00] um, during my traumatic years, as I put it, I've dealt with it, trust and believe. I know who I am now. And, um, But he used to try and beat it out of me. Um, and I think that's a similar story for a lot of our whakawaihine trans community. Um, difference is a scary thing for people to face in society. And um, I think I come to reconcile that later on in my life with my father. And I gave it back to him. I gave all the trauma back to [00:08:30] him, not physically, even though I could have. I could have. No, I told him to take it with him to his grave because I didn't need to carry it anymore. So, and then, but I was loved by my grandfather and my grandmothers on both sides. But it was closer to my father's sides because my, um, I was brought up with them. And I was very spoiled by them, apparently. All my aunties and uncles tell me, Oh, you couldn't fuckin do anything [00:09:00] wrong. And then that, and I have a love for cooking. So, there's a story. I was two years old, I think, yeah, two years old, sitting on the floor, and my grandmother used to make, uh, praua kraua, which is the cartwheel bread. And, well, there was thirteen of them, us, eating every night. So she had to make two a day. So my grandmother passed away when she was fifty four. She had that many kids, so she'd be depressed. You know, shitting out kids all your life. [00:09:30] And she died of cervical cancer. And she died of cervical cancer. You know, so understandable, you know. And, um, she would bake every day, and I hate watery mince stew because of that trauma. Because it used to have to feed us, you know, I thought Charlie and the Chocolate Factory had it bad. But, yeah, so she taught me, that's a memory that I have of her throwing the dough on the floor and I would knead it. So that's probably where my love of cooking started.[00:10:00] Um, so, moving forward to primary schooling. Bye. Was very, um, well I was loved by all the teachers too, the lady teachers. But I was, you know, um, just because I was a very flamboyant, I was very, um, I don't know whether I knew. Who I was then. I actually truly, trust and believe, this is an honest word of God, who apparently exists. Anyway, that's another topic. [00:10:30] Um, until I see his face, sorry. Um, I, I truly believed I was a woman. I was a girl. It wasn't until I, um, had hemorrhoids. And I went to the toilet and I was staying with my auntie then. And then I came out, I went screaming to her. At this time I think I was about eight or nine. And I says, I think I just got my period. Truly, truly, true story. [00:11:00] And she goes, oh you fucking idiot, she can't get your period, you're a boy. And I was, I was devastated. Truly, I was devastated. And she made my cousin drop his pad to show me. We had the same, I was broken. I was an elongated clit. So, that was part of that journey. But I was very, very sad. Spoiled by all of my aunties, and even my grandfather, my father's father, he used to call me Susan. Oh, where's Susan? You know, [00:11:30] that was, uh, to get cheeky, it was either a poof door. Susie, Susie Wong was back in the day, Susie Girl. And then he always goes, where's Susan gone? And I wasn't allowed to mow the lawns, and yet I like mowing lawns. I know how butch. I know you guys are so butch. But, because you know, you couldn't make it look stunning. You couldn't make anything look stunning. And so I says, Coral, I'd like to mow the lawns. And he goes, Oh, you'd just peel the potatoes. And so she's ended up doing that for the [00:12:00] marae. So yes, and then, um, I became, I went to intermediate. I'm sort of trying to, you know, Skip some parts so we get to the juicy bits, like those men used to say. Anyway, um, I was at Intermedia, and I entered a, um, essay competition. Now, it's a big thing these days, but I won the English section form one, which is now year [00:12:30] seven? Year seven? Um, Marimu BC essay competition. That's how bullied she was. She was going to do an essay competition at lunchtime. Because you got, yeah, I got tortured by the boys and some other girls. And then I just thought, why is that man? Yeah. That's, you know, flamboyant little tight curls. And I got a $50 check and a Jade Country book, and that was my prize. Now you go to Parliament and you go up and get it off [00:13:00] the, as an archbishop, I don't know, whatever they are up there. Yeah. Well, don't get me started on this government. So anyway, so I got there and so my grandfather went and bought me a encyclopedia set and a um, atlas of the world. And he reckons to my, um, um, aunties and that, he's gonna be a professor. Well, he got the pro right. He just didn't get the [00:13:30] stitute. But hey, I've still got a few years left in me. I still might make his dream come true. So I still have that encyclopedia set because that was my go to was reading. I was a nerd. I was a nerd to find out things. But I think I will suit you. At that age, I was 11 at this time, was, um, because I knew from the age of 9 that I liked boys. Um, because I used to crush on boys, okay? But I knew from the age of [00:14:00] 11 that I wanted to be a female. And how I knew that, I saw, I don't know if any of you saw, The younger generation won't, but maybe not, Donahue talk show. Yeah, so, there was this trans lady on there, Caroline Cossey. So she was one of the bomb girls for one of Sean Connery's movies. And she was stunning. She was beautiful. And when I, when he was, she was on his show and she was coming out [00:14:30] like she was a transsexual. There was a light bulb moment for me that I would like to see. I wanted to be a female. So that was okay, so she still lived androgynously. And, um, we moved back to Wellington. So in the meantime, up until the age of 11, we had been going between Wellington and Whakatane. Um, my sisters, um, We're brought up with, and my brother, we're brought up with my mother's parents, my grandparents on that side. And I was, [00:15:00] that was only four of us then, okay? And then my mother left my father when he was, uh, uh, eleven, and she had to strategically do that because she was an abused, um, mother and wife. And so she, um, got, got out of that relationship, and he come looking for us to kill us. And actually, I will remember, we were right ahead, his sister's place. So she took off with his V8 because, you know, all these gang members have to have V8s. And um, he had [00:15:30] the nicest one in Whakatane at the time. And my um, his sister's husband helped us, and my auntie, helped us to escape it. Because he beat her up on the way to work. And then I saw that, and she came back at lunchtime, and we were with our grandfather. And she came in with shades on, and she had a black eye. But see, my sisters, because they grew up on my grandfather and grandmother on my mother's side, they didn't see a lot of the abuse my mother saw. So I used to jump in [00:16:00] for my mother to stop her from getting beaten so that he would just beat me so that she would stop. Um, getting hurt. And then, uh, we got out of there. Because, I mean, he used to beat me up because I've, well, I lived for Wonder Woman. You know, she had her gold cufflinks and, uh, the lasso and the blue shorts and the red singlet and she's spinning around and he's spinning me into the wardrobe. Literally. And he threw me in the wardrobe because I was thinking our mates were [00:16:30] coming over. He can't have his little Wonder Woman, um, child running around. You know, he's supposed to be your oldest boy. I didn't have a patch on then. And so, yeah, so he would put me in the wardrobe and lock me up until my mother got home, so. Yes, it was very traumatic, but I've like, like I said, I've dealt with it and I can speak freely about it. Um, so when we moved away, we came down and that night that we were in , it was one o'clock in the morning. 'cause my auntie and my mother were [00:17:00] talking about it and they were saying about fucking time, you know, he's blah, blah, blah. And then we, one o'clock we heard this car puller, my mother grabbed my, me and my sister and covered our mouths in the wardrobe. And all we heard was the door, bang, bang, bang, and he had a sawn off shotgun, and he goes to my, his sister, because she goes, What the fuck in hell is wrong with you? What are you doing? And he goes, That's Charmaine Cum. This is my mother's name. And then they, she goes, What's fucking going on, you fucking idiot? No, they're not here. Well, luckily, they [00:17:30] had parked the car right around the back of the milk factory that my uncle ran. And he just got in the car and zoomed off, looking at us in Wellington. And headed down to Wellington because her sisters lived here. And they were a lesbian couple, my auntie and her partner. So we ended up coming down here and living with them. And I ended up going to Nainai College and, um, Intermediate. Sorry, Nainai Intermediate. And that's when I, um, first had my first, um, [00:18:00] Telling Quest and the song that I sang was Anne Murray's You Needed Me. You know, so, and I lived, because whenever I used to get hirings, you know, the number one songs. Were like Lulu back in the day and then I would go and sing them on the bench because we grew up across from the bench. Um, oh, the heads it's called. And then I'd sing the number one songs, but all female songs. And that's how I fell in love with Aunty Whitney. May she rest in peace. She's a diva. [00:18:30] She was a diva for me. She taught me how to sing actually. Um, and then I went into my first talent non intermediate. And I remember afterwards. Some of the guys in my class, you know, the boys, um, their mothers come up, Oh, what's her name? They thought I was a girl cause I was, you know, you needed me. High pitch. And they go, that's not a girl mum, that's a boy. You know? And she goes, Oh my God, you're so beautiful. I says, Oh, I was [00:19:00] living for it. Thank you. I was living for that acknowledgement. Yes, I do. But then I went to college. I went to, um, Nine Eye College, and I started to um, you know, puberty hit, and so I had a, Nine Eye College for me was a very traumatic experience because, you know, I get it now that I've gotten older and I look back, the society and the young people back then were just [00:19:30] bullies, anything different. And there was these three significant males. Um, that used to always bully me, and um, they sexually abused me in the gym one time. And I let, you know, um, I wish I could meet this one guy because he came in and actually saved me. And I thought he was hot. And I, you know, he was stunning. But he, he knew what had happened, but he couldn't because they were on the same team of basketball. So it [00:20:00] was all hush hush back then, you know, you couldn't dare say anything like that. It was all hush hush. So, you know, so she bottled that up and then she moved on and then I hung out with, um, what they would call the little hood rats these days, eh? Um, the mischiefs in the class, you know, the rangatahi, they don't understand really. What, um, the teacher's talking about. So we used to wag, go smoke dope on the field. Um, we sometimes used to go to my friend's place. And, you know, I'm [00:20:30] pretty sure some of you's might have done this. Swap the whiskey out for tea. Or, you know, and fill it back up. Yeah, we used to do that. And this was at 13. I was 13 then. And I went back to, we went to class one time. And I remember the teacher's name. Her name was Mrs. Christensen. I actually wish I could go back. and apologize to her, but in the interim when we were, because I was up front, because I was quite scholastic, so I was up front with all the [00:21:00] ones that were there wanting to learn and absorb the knowledge she was sharing. And this is in a classroom of what, 30 something children, no teacher aids back then, you know, and um, she was focusing on us and my friends, that didn't understand they were at the back playing up and I said you shouldn't worry about us you should go worry about them they can't understand you and then she says I think it was confronting for her because I had pulled her you know pointed it around and she's looked at [00:21:30] me and she goes well you need to go and make sure whether you're a boy or girl yeah and that I went to fight or flight in that moment because it was fact she was speaking realistically fact So I, I went to fight and I got up and smacked her in the face. And I never went back to school after that. I went and took off and I would work. Because we actually lived in Wellington now. My mother got us a place in Wellington. She was a barmaid. So she was [00:22:00] living her best life. Um, partying, you know, um, because she was free from an abusive husband. So, I was this 13 year old that was left home, you know, she was at the pub. They should bring parties home. And the Ministry of Air, because I'd have to wear a uniform, but I'd put mufti clothes in my bag, catch a bus from Newtown to the railway station, get off, get changed into my mufti clothes, and go stealing. Yeah, go stealing, because it was, you know, the buzz, I suppose, I don't know. [00:22:30] But ironically, I have to share this, my coordinator today, the record shop that I used to go and print, uh, I stole from, and it was a, um, Prince Purple Rain t shirt, he's, um, owner, he was the owner of that shop, and he's now my coordinator today, so we've, he, he knows a bit about the Evergreen Trust in Berlin. And then, um, so, that was okay, and I never went back to school, the ministry came to my, um, school. Mother's house, [00:23:00] the address, and the guy stands there and he goes, I'm looking for my butch name. I said, Oh, that's me. You know, and then he goes, Oh, okay. Oh, I thought, okay. And he made my day. Cause he goes, I thought you were a girl. I says, I'm going to be. And so that was okay. And then he said, Oh, well, okay. So we can give you leave. Cause you know, you can't leave before you're 15 back then. So, he says, we'll give you an exemption if you can get a job. [00:23:30] So I told my mother, I ended up telling my mother, they ended up getting a hold of her anyway. And she got me a job in the 1860, which is a pub on Lincoln Quay back in the day. And it was the shit bar she used to work in. I was a kitchen hand in the restaurant. So, if anyone knows the 1860, it was Are going off pub and well, the eighties just rocked. I'm just, yeah, the eighties rocked. I'm sorry. All this generation today it was fabulous. Library and Thursday, Friday, Saturdays, you know, and for young [00:24:00] person turning 14 this time, washing dishes and going, being able to stay and wait for my mother till she finished work. You know, you'll see in real life, you know. And my cousin ended up coming to live with us and she got a job as a waitress. And, um, she ended up with one of the band members. And I ended up on the ships with her. Because he took us onto the ships. And it was a, uh, English ship. And a cargo ship. And they have a barn. Is my batteries going flat? Like, yes. [00:24:30] I don't know. I don't know yet. Um, you know, they have an open bar and everything. Well, that was another eye opener to, you know, the sex world, because they had ship moles on there. Well, they were female prostitutes. For the men, you know, the sailors. Well, I was getting hit on, but I hadn't transitioned. And these guys were going, oh, you know, but I couldn't outright because I was too scared if I sued. I wasn't a girl, they beat me up anyway. So I just had [00:25:00] to play, I was so pretty stupid, all the time I was living for it. If only I could, you know, you know, that was that journey. And then, um, so my mother, because I wasn't going back to school, she knew I had a passion for cooking. And so she, her and her partner then, got a, um, they had a cleaning business. So she ended up getting in the cleaning business. And at, I think I was [00:25:30] 14, going on 15, I became a street kid. And a lot of the, um, street kids Aye. Is that 86? About. OK. Yeah, about 86, yeah, about 86, 87. And, um, in Wellington, I met a lot of the street kids who, one of my soul sisters, um, she lives in Hastings, um We are meet here and we've become lifelong friends from that journey and Adam knows [00:26:00] here as well and a very close friend of ours, but um, and I've seen a lot of Like, you know, glue sniffing, you know, we used to go and hustle down at the railway station with our bags, because the people would be scared, and we'd have shifts, no, no shifts, we were quite um, what would you call it? I thought it was quite street smart, really. You'd have shifts, you know, one group would go and, Oh, have you got a dollar? Have you got a dollar? By the end of our shift, we'd have enough for a box of glue and a big feed of [00:26:30] fish and chips. Yeah. And then And then, the afternoon peak hour shift, the next shift would go. And that was a bit for about a year. And then I did see, um, I didn't actually come across any trans then, the sisters on the street. It was because we were on top of buildings. Honestly, we'd climb up to the top of the buildings and, or into, um, uh, squatting in empty homes. You know, and just getting stained. I'd sing to them all, when I was [00:27:00] big and glued off my face. I'd just sing to everybody. And um, I snapped out of that, I did try to go home and sit my school seat, but then that was another traumatic experience going back to Whakatane to sit my school seat because, not that I didn't do the work, it's because my mother forgot to pay the fees, so I couldn't sit it at the end, so that was it, I gave up on anything educational, and then I came back and She got me, [00:27:30] um, she had a cleaning business, so we were working for her. Well, I call it exploited. Yeah, she exploited her children because we had to go and work for nothing. But in saying that, they had paid my board. And then she ended up getting a cafe in Newtown. She was looking at buying it so I could run a cafe. But I'm in the midst of trying to find myself, eh? So, I was still at the 1860, went back there to [00:28:00] do catering, and one of the friends there, a waitress, you know, um, very good friend of mine to this day, I ended up helping bring up her children, and they live in Paraparaumi now, and, um, I lived with them, she was, I was still there, you know, 15 at the time, and I helped bring up her three year old at the time, because she had lost two of her kids in a fire, so she had to, she was pregnant, And her husband worked at, um, road user charges. And so, [00:28:30] I went to be a live in nanny as such. And so, their daughter's got green eyes and she's white haired. And here's me, this little pango Maori kid. You know, because realistically, that's, you know, 15 back then. Full time nanny. And looking after kids was a common thing in our era. You know, I was 11 years old, I used to look after my cousins, and then we'd be ordering a tamariki right now, you know. And I used to get on the train with her anyway, and people would stare like I'd stolen this [00:29:00] child because she was white and with green eyes. And, well, come on, let's go and see mummy. And if she was crying, then I'd really get the stares, you know. But I grew up helping bring up their kids. And to this day, I've got a beautiful relationship with them, and they've been so supportive of my journey. They've always been there, non judgmental. But how I, um, come out to my mother, and because of all this time, I hadn't come out to my mother or any of my family, um, they all just [00:29:30] used to call me a little pofter, you know, and so my mother brought a party home, and there was this gorgeous Samoan guy named Yes, he was delicious. And I wasn't, I wasn't, I wasn't allowed in the parties because I was so young. So she's, I used to stay in the room, but I'll, you know, manipulate it. I'll put on a pink sweatshirt and go out. I'm just getting me a coke. And just go in the, in the party room. Mincing it, mincing it through the crowd. And she goes, what are you doing in here? I'm [00:30:00] just getting me a coke. Then I mince back out. And then this guy, he followed me out. And he grabbed my hand and he goes, where you going? It's like out of a drama, you know? True story. And he goes, where you going? Oh no, I'm not allowed in the ante, yo. And he pulled me into the toilet while the fuck it was all on. Well, her, her, her boarder, her lady, that boarder, she wanted it, eh? Well, she minced into the fucking bathroom and seen us getting it [00:30:30] on, and she went screaming out like a fucking destitute prostitute, screaming out fucking, no, come in, come in! And my defence, poor thing, my defence was, he made me. You know, because I hadn't come out that I was, you know, like men. And, um, so her partner closes down the party dramatically and I got put into my mother's room. She comes in while everyone's leaving, because there was about 15 of them. And then, um, she goes, [00:31:00] what are you going to do? And I said, what do you mean? And she goes, I know he didn't make you. This is my mother. I know he didn't make you. So what do you want to do? And I said, I want to be a woman. That's And she goes to me, and I'll never forget it, she goes, I will always support whatever you want to be, but I don't know how to help you. And there was probably a lot of, true story for a lot of whānau out there with um, Rangatahi back then in the 80s. They wanted to do a transition, so I went looking. And [00:31:30] at first I thought I was gay because, you know, Alfies was going on. Carmen had created Alfies. So I went and thought, OK, I must be gay. So I went to the gay nightclub, which was Alfies. When I got up there, and yes, trust and believe there were some gorgeous specimens, but they just didn't do it for me. You know, because they were too proper. And they were too beautiful, and I was, and then I couldn't, I don't want a butch, you know, I want a man, you know, I [00:32:00] wanted a heterosexual male. And so I just would go up there Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and I'd stay up there and just, and I'd get held on by lesbians because I was dressed androgynously, you know, the hammers, MC Hammer pants and the creepers, and the long trench coat. And, um, I had my hair, I looked like the girl of Chimes, if anybody knows that group. My hair was, you know, my hair was that colour. you coming up to the part where You're telling us how you [00:32:30] discovered the evergreen? Yes. Okay, thank you. Is that your prompt? I told her in the green room I would be able to talk for an hour. Now she's trying to cut the bitch off. I need to add a few things in there too. No, yeah, so I'm leading here. I'm leading him. So anyway, the alpha is okay. I've got the, uh, strategic. And I [00:33:00] see, so, because back then there were no queens on the scene. Um, that I knew of, drag queens, that is. Performing queens, the performers were the street girls. The prostitutes. And those were like Chanel and Renee and all them. So, um, Renee was one of the sisters that was the first stripper. Trans stripper in Wellington. And she was brilliant at it too. Cajun Moon, by Sissy Houston. Cajun Moon. Yeah, so anyway. [00:33:30] At Alfies, I seen these two queens come in. And it was, that was the light bulb moment. Cause they looked like these Texan bucks and beauties. You know, pop hoods, mini skirts. Stunning figures and that was Siobhan and Lilo that came in and I saw I said, oh my god, you know It was it was like those new young queens. Oh my god, I want to be like her So I strategically would see where they'd sit and I would place myself and I was sitting there one night It was [00:34:00] Thursday night and they come in And then they, I was sitting there and they go, Girl, and I says, yes? I says, are you by yourself? And I says, yeah. And they go, come over here. And then one of them, she turns to me and she goes, Are you a, are you a, Are you a, I wanna be. Yeah. And then the other one went, I thought you was a finish. And, um, a fish is a girl. Yeah. And then, I thought that was fabulous. And they said, come with us. And that's when we headed off to the [00:34:30] Evergreen. Yeah. And that was my first experience of the Marian Strait. And then they took me into the Evergreen, and that's when I met my street mother, Chanel. A lot of whanau here, she's very well respected in the sisterhood community of the Evergreen. And she became my street mother. And she, I would sit with her every night outside the Evergrande just on the corner by the Blue Note, where the Blue Note was. We'd sit on those park benches, we'd tell, [00:35:00] there's a lot of stories that went on in those park benches. And I used to sing to her and she fell in love with my voice. And because of Whitney, so I'd be singing to all the boys. And um, I stuck it out. I didn't crack it for probably two months later. I would just go down Thursday, Friday, Saturdays and meet Chanel at the end of the year. And then I'd go over and start again closer to her and then meeting the other girls and through her. And because she had so much respect, I was quite lucky, because the sisters [00:35:30] left me alone. Yeah, but I think also because of my personality, I wasn't one of these intrusive queens that would, you know, Because some of those bloody bitches were torturers. They were. They would stand over the younger queens. And, you know, and fucking torture them. And it was sad because we were already going through struggles in society then. You know, so it was causing a lot of division. And one thing that really gutted me was seeing the segregation. on the streets. So the Samoan queens, [00:36:00] and especially in Auckland, but down even in Wellington, the Samoan sisters were down one end and they'd only stay down that end. They would never come into the evergreen. They'd only come out and crack it. But you never fucked with the Samoan girl. There was a respect that they had for the Māori queens too. And I was lucky enough to be one of the only Māori queens that got invited to the SEVAs with them. You know. Well, later on in life I found out I was part Samoan. I was 37. So that's where that connection comes from. [00:36:30] And I used to get mistaken when I was younger too. I says, no, Kori, Maori. Maori all the time. Yeah, you are. Part Samoan. Found out my mother's biological father was Samoan. So I've just recently come back from the, uh, doing a pilgrimage over to his village. Um, he's still alive. He's 94, but we didn't get to meet him. 'cause we don't, we did, knew his village. We did only knew the village. So at least we got to go there. I mean, that's still a journey that can happen. [00:37:00] But anyway, um, the evergreen, sorry. I met Chrissy, I had met Chrissy with Chanel, and all these older queens, and oh my god, they were so, just, regal. Like Ella Gypsy, Dion, um, well, Diana came in after when she moved back from Australia. But just the glamour, I mean, Miss Diana, Lady Diana. She was Mrs. Chancellor, if you know Young and the Wrestlers. She was Mrs. Chancellor to [00:37:30] me. She was porcelain skin, but she had a Maori heart. She had a huge Maori heart for our people. And she just didn't judge anybody, you know, even if you were a young queen. Because, oh, there was some, I named them Jurassic Park. I did. Because when they were, if you knew the evergreen, there was the window in the front. And some nights those queens would come out together. And they would, and I get it why they would sit there and, you know, look down on you. Because they were up on, you'd step up into this booth. And they would all [00:38:00] be there. And I just, I went up and I says, Oh my God, hi Ella. So I knew Ella from Housie, because I come from Housie, I don't still am. And um, So So I say, hi sister. And she goes, hi girl. And then she goes, I says, hi, Stasha. So Stasha, she's the reason why I called them Jurassic. Cause she had these long nails and she would, but they were her own. And she goes, kill the girl. I said, Oh, and then I said, Oh, it's like a Jurassic old cunt. [00:38:30] And the other ladies, like there was Ruby, um, Regan Carroll. Um, This is going back to Carmen's era. They're from Carmen's, the originators, you know. And, um, they all cracked up at Stasha. Well, Stasha and I become good friends. She was a hairdresser. And, um, she, and I then, well, they knew my Uncle Robert. So my Uncle Robert's a gay, uh, tiny, but he used to dress in drag back in the 70s. And [00:39:00] Gypsy, who transitioned back to being a man, living in a lesbian relationship, um, used to flat with my uncle. So Ella took me over to his place, they have drinks every Friday. So that was like for a young queen, so it's like Saviiey, you know, being the younger generation, being invited up to one of the older queens. Places for party and all the other young ones weren't allowed. That's what that was like for me. And just sitting there in awe of just listening [00:39:30] to their stories and just having the, like the banter that they heard, I mean, we had our own, but it was more, um, facetious, whereas theirs was just that, you know, sister, they could laugh it off and 'cause I remember my auntie telling me they used to make eyelashes out of car cartridge paper and bake it. And it'll kill, with their scissor. And I said that to Jitsi, and she goes, I said, oh, my uncle said that you used to make your eyelashes with the cartridge paper, and bake it, and cure it, and the [00:40:00] other queens laughed at you. And she goes, that was back in our day, girl. And that's how they taught, because, and I get it, you know, I so get why they, because they went through the struggle. They went through, like, I had got to and when I did my social work degree, I got to interview Donna 'cause we had to interview a different culture. Now my tutor said to me, I don't know if you can do, um, do this because it's not a different culture says generationally it is because I had never, [00:40:30] um, they're the shoulders that she's a soldier I stand on. She's the reason why I'm able to come and study in this country. And so I got to interview Dana and I still haven't found the USB with it 'cause it's priceless. And what she shared of what they had to go through, she, she had to manipulate her way to get out. Because back then, if you were seen as mentally unwell, um, you were locked in an institution. And she knew [00:41:00] that until the age of 21, your parents had guardianship over you. So they could, if they thought that, even if you had your own business and they thought you were mentally ill, they could still send you off to Lake Alice and stuff. And so she got out of Hastings, was where she from, and she went up to Auckland and the Maori queens looked after her there. So, and she shared, honestly, it's such valuable and she's the reason and, and, um, Chanel and the main lived experience, but when she shared what they had to [00:41:30] go through in the sixties and seventies. I'm in awe of what they paid for me to be able to study and to be able to be here today. And that's when I got it, why they all used to, you know, expect that respect because of what they went through. They, she shared that they would just walk down Langdon King and people would throw their rubbish at them. You know, if they looked like, you know, dressed up as women. And in Auckland she [00:42:00] said that you were allowed to dress as a woman. As long as it was on clothes, um, over men's clothes. And so, you know, when I talk about the shoulders I stand on, those giants, they're giants in my eyes. Um, in New Zealand anyway, in Aotearoa, and what Carmen did, you know, standing on the steps of Parliament, and then Georgina, going to become the first MP transsexual in the world. You know, we've had a lot of firsts in this country for our community. And, um, they [00:42:30] helped pave the way. Um, and I did my little bit with the young queens when we used to have a flat in Coromandel Street. Um, I used to take all the young Auckland queens because they'd come down. And you're talking 13, 14 year olds cracking it on the ruri. And they'd go and sell themselves to pay for their motel room. And I said, I'll come over home. But there was not to be any cracking out there. And I'd give them a feed. And it stayed for, you know, a month or so. But [00:43:00] imagine the getting ready. And one time we had 13 of us. Imagine getting ready, darlings. It was fabulous. You know, and it was cast wine. I said, pour that into a bottle at least. You know, those boxes of wine. You know, well we had them all lined up. Country wine. And then, and then we'd go out and crack it. And all the sisters would go and crack it. And we'd go partying. It was great. And that's one of the biggest regrets I have about, um, my life, is that I would have probably owned three houses [00:43:30] if I had have saved it. But, um, however, I'm so happy for the journey in the Evergreen. That was a safe haven. I suppose it would be like a pad. You know, what these gang members call a perd, like what parliament is for the government. Because, you know, let's be real, they're the biggest gang, you know, they're the legal gang in this country. They're both blue and red. And whoever's prime minister's the [00:44:00] president. And as far as I'm concerned, the police are their prospects. They do exactly what these gang members do, but just legally, apparently. They corrupt us. I'll, I'll talk about corruption, the police, some of my experiences with them. So I share this one, um, I was in Lower Hutt and I had to go, I got arrested, but it wasn't for prostitution, it was for theft, but um, cause you know, along with this prostitute's life and the, that's why Evergreen was a safe haven [00:44:30] for us because when there was dramas on the Ruri, we had a place to run into and be okay to be. Whereas if you went into some nightclubs, you know, you could get kicked out if they knew you were queens. And it happened. Um, like, one of the sisters for using a female toilet got thrown down the stairs at chicks back in the day because she was trans. I was lucky because I was passable. They didn't realize until you go in with a group, or a group of sisters, and then they realize, oh, you're one of [00:45:00] them too. So, I had a partner, um, he was a South African Dutch man, I met him in a cafe in Cuba Cuba, it's called, back in the day, um, and we hooked up, and he goes, does this make me gay? And he said, you're sexual. And I said, well, did you pick up a man? And he goes, no. Well, there's your answer. And then, but we ended up in a relationship for four years and moved to Whanganui. But, um, who was it going [00:45:30] with this? Um. Oh, he, he was, sorry? Oh, the police. So, yes. So, that's right. We had been at a party. And it will heat. He couldn't handle this per se, and he'd blob. Well, I went out with the girls, and we ended up going to the bottle store, and I got caught stealing this bottle of whisky. Anyway, I had to go to court in Lower Hutt. But, when they took me down to the South, this prick, because they found a foil, a tinny of [00:46:00] dope in my bag, and he goes, Mmm, this is Afghani. He knew that, you know, this was a cop while he was processing, man. I said, of course you know what it is. I think I might go and smoke it with my mates. Well, anyway, he had me strip searched. And he got his mates to come and watch. Yeah, and that's when I said, well, we had lawyer friends, so Greg King Gregory King. He was very supportive of the sisters. And there was a few lawyers actually, and judges, trust and believe, but [00:46:30] anyway, that's a different story. Um, he, they'd come and get us out of the cells. But I told him what happened. Um, David was his name, this other lawyer. And he went and had it themed that that's when females had to count doctors. Um, if they wanted a strip search trans, that doctors have to now go in. Um, cause that was one of the most humiliating experiences. And what was sad, there was two Polynesian, I don't know whether they were Maori or, Um, Samoan, but they [00:47:00] came in, and then they turned around and walked out. And I only hoped and wished that they had taken me at that time, but they left, well they were the minority in there as well. So anyway, but I mean, going back to the evergreen, you know, I've seen a lot of sisters come and go, very close sisters of mine, through, unfortunately, what came along with the same, and it was a choice. It wasn't because you had to, it was a choice you chose to do. And it was to fit in with the clique. [00:47:30] The sisterhood was the drugs and the addictions that came along with it. That's why I don't own three homes. You know. Um, but I got off that and if you make the choice to remove yourself from it as well. But it never took away the, the bonds that were made. And the relationships and the sisterhood. And that's why when Saviiey, I remember I was out drinking, well I come off the scene then. And Saviiey and the young sisters that are here. You They travelled down from Hastings, by the way, to [00:48:00] come to this, my darlings. Um, they're the generation after me, and they're the ending of the evergreen legacy that these, these ones are serving in them. And, um, that's when it was sisterhood. You know, we had each other's backs. I mean, there were two days of the year I hated. Or two weeks was one of them, but one day was Guy Fawkes and the school holidays. Can you imagine it? So yeah, those little shitters going around in their fucking parents cars abusing us [00:48:30] And then shooting their fire rockets, but we'd have bottles and rocks Stacked up in the doorway. Yeah, come on bitches. And I mean a lot of gangs tried to stand over the girls and kick, you know, make us, pimp us. You know, fuck off. You know, we're doing all the work. And they did. They tried to. They tried to take over the evergreen and Chrissy, whatever, none of that. And there was the Nutcrackers, that was the Hole in the Wall, if you've been on Boomerang. Hole in the Wall was, uh, Chrissy's as well, that was [00:49:00] called the Nutcracker. And that was a cool, cool bar as well. But the Evergreen was where, um, a lot of heteros, I mean, when they filmed Lord of the Rings, what's his name, Frodo? You know, or what I'll share with my sister, one of the girls, Stephanie, she goes, We walked in and she was wasted. We were all wasted. And he's sitting in the corner and Elijah Wood was sitting in the corner in the front of the booth. And she goes, Oh my God! You're that guy from Free Willy. [00:49:30] I fucking know he's not you, eh? But he was, like, his lips dropped at some of the girls at Mint Sink as well, looking like hookers, eh? So, you know, he was looking up and down, and I'm like, good piff. But, but all the, there's a lot of celebrities out there. Yes, but, you know, we didn't sign a non disclosure form. But I won't go there, I won't go there, I'm not that nasty. But yes, they've been some delicious, um, [00:50:00] And so I say to my nephews, when you watch the rugby games, you know, oh, you all get off on watching a bunch of men running around chasing one ball, putting their legs, hands between each other's legs. You know, I'll play the hooker. You know. But, yeah, but, you know, the, the story and the legacy of the evergreen for men is what's lost in today's society is the sisterhood. No matter where you were from, and you came down on the [00:50:30] scene, and the evergreen, when the evergreen was going, you were always welcomed. It was like a marae for queens. So, you know, and now it's a marae in the sky. And it was fabulous, it was a fabulous journey, and people go, oh, do you wish, because when Georgina got into Parliament, she did that mahi for decriminalising prostitution, it actually ruined it for us. Because they didn't fucking worry about it, and then they could start negotiating the cancer. But no, [00:51:00] you know, but it was a good thing. I felt that you could have, they could have done more for education back then. Because as you all know, we know we want to be who we want to be. We've got an idea when we hit puberty. So it's, you know, the generation today, I've got a lot of opportunities handed to them and I'm so happy for them. But I struggle. I'm going to be real. I'm struggling with the whole non binary and that. I've got to educate myself. [00:51:30] That's all there is to it. I don't disrespect the fact that they want to look like that, you know. But the trans sisters that I've met of today's generation, I want to slap them upside the head. Because they're entitled little shitters, some of them. They honestly expect you to bow down bitches Transcribed You don't even know historically where you come from. And I went to a workshop that my sister runs a rangatahi course up in Gisborne. [00:52:00] And she's got a rainbow youth group there. And she asked me to come up and do a workshop. And I went, but the facilitator, lovely young trans girl, I just heard her when I walked in and she was going, You don't need to worry about the past. Well, that was a trigger for me. Oh, yes, you do. Yes, you do. Pump your brakes, sister. Sit down. Yeah, and it's not about them, um, just to have some [00:52:30] knowledge of it. They don't have to accept it, but understand the struggle was real. For why they can wear their dresses and you score uniforms at school nowadays. Why? They can go and, you know, put these other, and there's, you know, on a form where you fill out your name. It's not just male or female. Now it's all 'cause of those struggles of our AKA tapi and our whanau out there is whose shoulders I do stand on.[00:53:00] Can I just add on, um, just because. Um, the intergenerational knowledge, right? Um, and the importance that it plays. And you've acknowledged all of the giants that, um, you pretty much represent. But obviously, we pretty much sit here because of yous. Um, and that's the beauty of it, is that because we have a purpose put in, in our lives currently, and with the mahi that we [00:53:30] currently do, it's because of yous. Um, and you continue to do it. And which I am highly proud of. praise and obviously look up to you in that sense, um, being from Wellington and being from Pōneke in general, um, and also just bringing those, those knowledge on to those young ones. Um, and I think I had a discussion, um, to you around, um, what we currently do. We play this little mapping game with our rangatahi, um, in regards to guess who [00:54:00] the photo is. Um, and it's pretty much in the sense of them. pretty much of us helping identify who they know. Um, and it's putting people like Chrissy Witoko, Andrew Chenow on, um, all of these iconic people from Pōneke in the, in their midst. And they pretty much got confused. Um, and that helped identify that they have no sense of history at all. And mind [00:54:30] you, we, we have lack of history, but we knew Um, and that was thanks to, we may not have been present during the evergreen, um, but the evergreen legacy currently lived on outside of it, moved on to the Ruri. Um, and a funny fact of the matter is that if you knew Aunty or Mama Jo back in the day, um, you would hear her before you would even see her. Um, uh, my generation were [00:55:00] always scared. Um, And she'll walk down in all your clothes, oohs, oohs, oohs, oooohs And then we'll start missing and taking over! But truly, no I wasn't, Cos, oh that's another fact actually. We ended up on the News! So Marion Street back in the day had no apartments on it. And I used to be, there was myself, Mushroom, and then Mariah came along. Um, but me and Mushroom used to be both the eights, they [00:55:30] used to call us, but I wasn't even big then, I was slimmer. Uh, anyway, we'd sing, and we'd be singing 3 o'clock, 4 o'clock while we were waiting for cracks. And then, when they built the apartments, they complained. And I says, well, we were here before them. And so, they got the TV3 News came out and did an interview with us on Nightline, I think it was. And we did a, and there was myself and Mariah, and we're singing and then we're talking [00:56:00] about it. And I says like, you know, they're happy to come down and join us if they like. But we're not going to stop doing what we've done for the last, you know, since Carmen and them were here. And so that what got on to the news and then we actually had people coming up, Oh my God, you were on the news the other night. And there's Mariah going, Can I have a cigarette? Oh, shame. But talking about what Saviiey was saying, Well I got that nickname Mama Jo because we take the young queens in and there was [00:56:30] not to be any rolling. You know, because there was a big thing on the queen, you know, rolling the clients. Stealing off them. And the Auckland girls were the worst for it. I'm trying to trust and believe. Wellington were the ladies of the night. And um, Auckland were the crooks of the night. And Christchurch was the leftovers. Because you all had to go down there if you didn't cut it in. But no. No. They've got some beautiful sisters down in Christchurch. I lived for Christchurch when I went down there. [00:57:00] But um, And the, I remember this one night I was out with my brother and my gay, gay friend Peter Lucas and Saviiey and the girls were in the Blue Note and this torturous black hawa wahine, you know, thought just she was going with the feckin Please turn your phone off. No. Um, she could be torturous and stand over my gay friend. So who the fuck are you talking to? And then she goes, oh, what? And I just got up and smashed the ashtray in her face. [00:57:30] And then the bouncers, because of the relationships they had with the sisters, the bouncers took her away. And, you know, in a lot of cases in a lot of the clubs, the bouncers did actually support the girls, but there's, um, times when, uh, going back, I'll share this one quite quickly, when I was with my partner, he would take a one day, because he knew that I'd given up the streaks for him, so one day a month he would Save up and we'd go out and go and have [00:58:00] a lunch and he'd spoil me and then he goes, I know it's not much, but what you're used to making, but he's, you know, he'd give it for me to go and treat myself. So he came one time and we got on the piss at two o'clock in the afternoon on a Friday. The sisters were going to meet us down there. There was Stephanie and Elaine in them. There was about five of them coming in. And we were at the lab back then. But it wasn't the lab where that was. So we were in there all day and we met these two [00:58:30] guys from Christchurch who had come up for a concert. And we were drinking all day, getting pissed, and then the girls, I was in the toilet, and I just heard this turning, and I knew, oh god, the girls have arrived. Already, it's fucking, because they turned up at 7, it was about quarter past 7, I'm coming out of the toilet, and they go, Yes, I can, I can, I can, you know, they're turning on the manager. So the bar manager's sitting there with the barman, I felt sorry for him, because he didn't know where to look. And she says, um, no, we don't have to have yous [00:59:00] here. And she goes, we've just fucking arrived. And then she goes, well, we don't serve your kind. And I walked down, I said, excuse me? And she goes, um, no, we don't accept them here. I says, I've been here all day with my partner and my two friends. We've been drinking here all day. And she said, well, I didn't know you realized you were one of them, so you can leave too. And my partner's running around getting a piece of paper with people to sign their names and stuff for a petition. I'll shut up, Rosa, uh, Rosa Parks. You know, well, that was his first experience of [00:59:30] the discrimination we face. It was just normal for us. So we just, I'll move, the next pub, they will accept us. Okay. And he's running off to Decca to use their phone. I need to ring the Human Rights Commission. And that's when he found out that trans didn't have any rights yet. We had to go down as a gay, you know, and they only gave rights back then. And I says, well, I'm not gay. You're not gay. So if I can hurry up and let's go and get a drink. Because we were so used to it that it was just, you know, all off a duck's back. And so we just [01:00:00] moved on. But so this is what these young ones today need to. Sort of have some insight into that, as to how lucky they could probably go and be a police officer these days, you know? Uh, talking about moving on. I told you I could be a chatterbox, bitch. Most recently, you and Adam added, um, acting to your credits. Can you please [01:00:30] explain the boy, the queen, and everything in between? You play the role of Gigi. Yes. And you're in the role of Max. Well, I, um, I was at work. And so I'm part of the Whakawahine page that we have on Facebook. And Ramon, who, Te Wake, who directed and created the series, put up a casting call for the role of, well at the time it was Carmen and Gigi. And I read it, and then, I'd like, Vanessa Robinson, could you please stand up? [01:01:00] Because you're the reason why I became Judy. Please stand up Mr. Prime Minister Robertson. So this is my good, good friend. She's my good friend. She's a little soul sister of mine. So she, her and I were doing a um, sleepover shift um, with our young wahine that we support. And I read the, I says, girl, read this. And she goes, oh girl, that's you. And say, cause she's a drag queen. Uh, she's a queen in training. She's a, you know, a closet diva. And um, she goes, [01:01:30] that's you. And when I read it, literally, description was my life. What I lived. You know, she was a 50 to 60 year old trans woman who used to be a prostitute. And then, you know, And a performer was the only live singing performer, and I was, at the time, on my song, the only live singing transsexual that used to go and do shows at our um, Well, along with Adam and I used to do shows and I was singing live. But, [01:02:00] um, when I read it, the casting call had, the auditions had cut off on the 10th of March and it was like the 11th or 12th. she said, Vanessa says to me, still submit a video. You never know for something future. I've still got them on my phone actually. And, um, so she did the other part. She was reading of Max's role part. There were two scenes that they. Oh no, sorry. I sent a video of, I sent a [01:02:30] video describing why you would be a fit for Gigi. So it's blank. And then I says, But I understand that the cut offs happen so. And then they got back to me and said, We'd still like you to read. So they sent me two parts, um, scenes of the script, and Vanessa helped me at work, and we were practicing. Even the young girl that we supported would sit there and buzz on us. Um, and, and in one scene, I had to say, um, You know, you opened your club, or I, in the practice, the rehearsal, I go, Well, you know, you opened your club, and [01:03:00] you welcomed us in, and you opened your legs, and I go, Oh, shit! Well, it wasn't, it's basically, you opened your legs. I did a Chris Upkins. So yeah, they sent that off too. And then they called me back and said, we'd like to offer you the part of Che Che. And then I says, who's playing Max? And they go, do you know Adam Teha? I said, oh, Mr Lahua. And so it was ironic because, um, Adam and I had done shows before. [01:03:30] Yeah. And we've been up to Hastings and done shows together for our good friend. So it was ironic. Yes, the Hui Takatapu, we did a fundraiser. And um, yes, it was fabulous. And Rabina was there. It was quite a cast, really, eh? So, so, following on, thank you so much for that korero. That you're, you're, do you know, this is what I found with Jo, living with Jo for the six or seven weeks that we lived together. Listening to these stories, [01:04:00] that were so real, inspiring. That I could not, like, I can imagine smashing somebody with an ashtray. Come on guys. . I, I, I couldn't imagine, you know, if, if there was a big I'd be like, yeah, this is ya. Come on then let's go. You know, let's slide out. But Jo having the tenacity and the, the, the mana, you know, the strength to be able to stand up made me want to work harder in this role. So talking about our audition process. [01:04:30] Um, a friend of mine sent me the role of Gigi. And I loved everything about her. She was, um, non apologetic. She was very abrasive. She would hate you before she said hello. So you all fell into that category. She was very dismissive. She was very forthright in who she was as a woman. Everything I read about that character is everything that I'm a little bit timid with. So I thought this would be a great experience. So I actually auditioned. [01:05:00] And I was thinking, girl, I got this. I'm gonna be me, miss some Gigi. I'm gonna hate on y'all. I had finished doing my seat read, and we had to do it online because I couldn't make it to Auckland. And they were like, yeah, yeah, that was good. And I was like, yeah. Yeah, no. And I was like, oh yeah, thanks for that. Oh! [01:05:30] My life crumbled. Well, um, what was the other producer's name? The guy? Him. With the hat on. And so this other guy, he rang me back and he goes, why did you hang up so quick? And I was like, ah, because you don't, you don't want me, so, yeah, I'm gonna go and live my best life, thanks for that. Um, he said, no, no, no, we've got another role. And I was like, yeah, I don't want to. And he goes, it's a roll of Max. And I'm like, yeah. And we were going on tour, Tam de Cargill. So I left [01:06:00] and he rang the next day and he said, I've sent you an email. Can you read this? When you go on tour, especially for shows that we do, you normally get to your venue and you become everything about your client. You work for them. They have these lunches. They, they, the whole co papa is around why they brought you here, why they're paying you this money. So I was very conscious of that. So these phone calls were not part of that and I'm working with a troupe of girls going, Get off your phone. Get off your phone. Can you read [01:06:30] this? Ah, yeah. So I got my telephone. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Can you read it as a woman? Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Great. Next day he rang back, can you read this? And I was like, okay, this is getting really bad. Because I need to focus on what I'm doing, this is my work. If I don't work, I can't pay my rent. That's basically what it boiled down to. But I was getting into slap, that's what drag queens call getting into your makeup. So I was half made up. And he goes, can you read it, [01:07:00] as Amanda, this scene? So I read it. And then I said to him, you can't call me back anymore. And the next day he rang back and I was like, Oh my gosh, this boy is either dyslexic, or he's got some prophylactic relapse habit. Why are you ringing me? And I answered finally and he goes, Hello Max. What? And he goes, Hello Max, this is 10 o'clock in the morning. I didn't get off stage until 2. So as some people would know, when you're [01:07:30] working at night, you're really tired in the morning. And he goes, Hello Max. And I was like, Ahem, ahem. So, Booboo, I don't know who you've just rung, but it's Amanda. And he goes, no, no, no, um, hello, Max Taylor. And I was like, yeah, nah. Sorry, and he goes, do you understand what I'm saying? And I was like, yeah, you've rung the wrong person. What we're trying to say here is, you've got the role of Max. And I was like, ah, yay. So I was, I thought that it was a secondary lead, [01:08:00] and I was going to toe tiple this one. And at that time, I didn't know who Gigi was, but I hated her. I thought, whoever's got this role, pfft. She's stolen my part, and I hope she gets swollen ankles. Anyway, we finished our tour. I got the swollen ankles already. So anyway, we finished. I signed the contract. We had a script read through really quick. And we were going, um, finishing our tour, and we were in Tauranga. And we were weaving through this thing. Then my phone rang, and it was [01:08:30] Missy. So I'm picking up the phone and, Hi Max, and I was like, We just signed one of those NDBBs, what are they called? NDB. Eh? Not Disclosure Agreement. You're so clever, thank you my agent. So we had to sign one of these and you absolutely cannot talk about the project to anybody that's been in this industry. Um, so when she was saying, Hello Max, I was like, Girl! Why are you doing that? And she goes, I've got the role of Gigi. [01:09:00] Honestly, I nearly burst into tears because like you said, I have a quiet love and admiration for this human being. I, she's come through a world that I, I don't know about. She survived, you know, and there were so many that lived Jo's life that didn't. And when they talk about, when Jo's talking about the evergreen, I really appreciate Leilani giving us this opportunity. I was one of the young fledglings, [01:09:30] probably a couple of years after Jo. But, but, anyway, if a glass goes flying, it's part of our performance. So I remember going into the evergreen not knowing what it was like, and all I remember was the stank, like it had that stank. And I'm really germophobic. So they'd say, sit down. Yeah, I won't. Would you like a cup of coffee? And I was like, 2 o'clock in the morning, a cup of coffee? Until I tasted it. And they [01:10:00] had, what did they have it? Special coffee. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was watered down whiskey. And then you got a toasted sandwich and it was like 5. You know, so I forget the coffee. I'm, can I have five of those sandwiches? And then I, I heard the co Yes. Yes. But I heard about, you know, How this was a haven for a lot of the girls that worked on the Rory and I realized really quickly It wasn't a haven. It was actually a beacon of light not only for these girls, but for our [01:10:30] community and coming from I'd lived overseas. So coming into Wellington and sharing these experiences Watching these people feel safe Being able to talk escaping the police I remember one night, Raquel and I, my cousin, we went in there. We'd just done a show up at, uh, Pound. And I remember us going in there, and I heard all this shuffle on the street. And girls were coming in with blood. And they had had, like, [01:11:00] a, a Westie party or something. And all these guys from out West, I didn't know what out West was, but they'd come in and they had full cans of beer that they'd thrown at the girls and cut the heat. You know, and that was common, that happened a lot. I had never experienced that sort of violence in my life. So watching these girls, it was like, when Jo talks about the sisterhood, the power and the majesty of these women, you know, pulling out their boobs, they [01:11:30] had, you know, padded boobs, but pulling out their boobs and taking away the blood, putting on their lipstick, straightening their wigs. I sat quietly in the back of the throne, shaking. And I thought, Oh my God, they're getting ready to go back out. I've just been beaten. You know, they, the dreads of society are still circling the street, but here are these sisters patting down the bud. You're a [01:12:00] right girl here. Put on this lipstick, straighten your wig, brush your hair, pull up your taro, off you go, and these girls would go. And I was like, I feel a little bit sick in my mouth. I'm so scared. Oh, I want to go home, but I'd go out onto the Ruri and watch these girls, and it was like, yeah, it happened. Don't focus the negativity on me. It happened, and it happened to not just me, but to a bunch of people. And then I think about the resilience of our younger LGBTI community.[01:12:30] Oh, I don't know whether you should wear that shirt. I'm broken! Oh my God, she attacked me. You know, I'm thinking about the images that I took from this experience, and where is the resilience of our young people? How do you not, like Jo, you know, I look at Jo and I think, how did you survive? Because I was frightened. I wasn't part of that, that life. But for me looking in, having the strong admiration, Jenny Edwards and Dana, [01:13:00] um, Ricky Love. Who else? Uh, what was that called? Poppy. Uh, Kerry, Kerry Lee, Maxwell. They were the woman that, that I sat down and talked with. And once I, when I was starting to do drag, when I first did my first show, I was thinking, Yes, you're a woman. Anyway. Um, I was so happy and I was a little bit drunk. I was at Blue Note, I took off my shoes, and I took off my wig because I was hot. But I was hot, [01:13:30] like, right now. But I was really hot. And I remember Dana come up and slap me. Full palm. Whang! Like this. And I was like, You old crotchety old cow. You're in your fossil claws. And then she got all my stuff and said, Get home. And the next day she came around to my apartment. And she said, You have just demoralized all the women that have walked on this street to be women. And I can tell that you're a he she, you know, [01:14:00] you're still a boy, but you're dressing as a girl, and you're performing, and then you bust that illusion. You take off your shoes in public. Where's your sense of pride and your sense of dignity? And remember, we bled on the streets so that you can put on that dress. And she said, have some respect for us, and I never forgot that korero. I never. And so, my drag daughter is Spanky Jackson. I drilled that into my people, [01:14:30] because I want them to remember they bled on our streets. Georgina Beyer told me a story of her being beaten on the corner of Cuba Street and the police walking over her and kicking her, for example. That's why I say to you, you know, with the legacy of Evergreen, it was a beacon of light and it showed our community that you mattered. And it didn't matter whether you wore a dress, or, you know, you had the nicest Versace glasses, or you had your [01:15:00] opportunity shop purse. In this environment, there was no judgement. If you were mamai, meaning sick, we would heal you. If you were hungry, don't worry about it, your five dollars will feed you. If you were thirsty, Okay, we feel five dollars. But if you can understand the imprint that it left on the community, so when it, when it left, when it burnt down, I always remember a [01:15:30] strong image of Chrissy. And I, I don't know what it would have been like for Chrissy to always troll the streets You're sitting in a dumpster. I'll pick you up. I'll give you a kai. I'll give you a beard. You don't know who I am. You don't know my fucker puppy. You don't know the dangers that I've come from. What I do know is you are human and you are hurt and I have a place. [01:16:00] Come to the evergreen and the stories that I hear from, from Donna and, and all of these other ladies, it made me as a performer, uh, I want to do more. I wanted to create Amanda as a character that, that, um, using her as a platform to tell the story. Because I got frightened. Again, I get frightened a lot. But I got frightened that these stories are no longer being heard. that [01:16:30] people aren't telling the story. So when Leilani gave us this opportunity, I was excited that I was going to be with Jo, and you again, this has been great, but the opportunity to share the kaupapa so that you remember it. So that when we are kōmutu, when we are gone, you people can go and tell that person who'll tell that person, because you were here, you know, you witnessed it. You felt the integrity and the [01:17:00] mana of the kaupapa that we're talking about. Does that make sense? Yeah, to only two people, does that make sense? Yeah, so I'm so appreciative. And getting back to the boy, the queen, Max played a very integral role. I didn't know how important he was to the story until I got there and started to read. And we were working with some incredible actors, young people. You know, they're pulling out their lines off their phones. I still have my piece of paper that [01:17:30] had all the words on it. You know, and they're going, Oh, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Ah, yep. Um, blah, um, blah, blah. By about the second week, I'm praising Jo again. Uh, we lived together. And I would come home and go, God, I'm so tired. Because I was on scene a lot. And And Jo would go over and over and over my line so that the next morning when we're on set, when they say we're going to film, I could see her sitting across the road from me [01:18:00] going, I'll remember this, remember that, this is your motivation. Finding out the kaupapa of Max, Max was krisiuitoko. This was lived experience. I stepped into a role that I was. I've always performed as Amanda, and I've kept myself as Adam, very separate, deliberately. This was the first time on set that I was being called Adam, and I was like, ah, why are you using my [01:18:30] slave name? And I don't. But it took me a little while to, to, to feel comfortable again with that. And because I was playing Amanda, some of the time, it was a little bit of a mind jiggle for me, because I, I was so specific. On what I wanted to do as a performer. I was definitive in where I was going. Um, When I understood the stories that we were telling, and the lived experience of some of the people that are no longer with us, [01:19:00] the power that you feel, you know, and I started to feed into all these memories about Evergreen, and what it was like. Jo brought up an interesting point where we're in the changing room, and you know, for us. It was two takes I think because when we were doing our lines, we weren't talking as characters. We were talking for those that are tu. We were talking for our sisters that no longer live. [01:19:30] We were trying to convey to a New Zealand audience on a public platform. This is our AKA Papa, if you can feel us at all. Feel this, all the hilarity of the show is great, but feel this one moment when we're in the changing room and when we said that we loved one another, what we're saying is we finalized the love letter that Ramon had written to the streets. Her and I were [01:20:00] saying to them, we love you. Don't forget us. And we won't. So Max played a very integral part, and I think with Max's role being very, um, what did you call them? You know, when they're sitting in the thing in the evergreen, like, yeah, Jurassic. Max was very that. Very Jurassic. Very, I don't know who you are, dismissive, you do it my way or get out.[01:20:30] And I find I'm not that as a person. I'm not a dismissive person, so to be able to fill that character role properly, I had to teach myself to do that. And I didn't understand why he was so abrupt. Why he was so Here. Oh, what's this? A glass. It still has the lipstick stains on it. Do it again. Clean it. In fact, clean them all. That's a really [01:21:00] yuck thing to do to your boy. I realized what Max was doing. Max was stamping his authority. Because growing up and coming through that past and coming through that lived experience, you didn't have that. You had to earn it. So he is teaching people, I'm teaching you to earn my respect because I deserve it. So if I say to you, I appreciate you, I'm meaning it. Because somewhere along your path in our relationship, you have deserved it. [01:21:30] If I dismiss you, it's because in my world and in my mind, you haven't had the same challenges. You haven't had the same degradation, people spitting on you, people making you feel this. So you are not worthy of me because I am that I have lived through that rape. I have lived through that beating me up in the street. I lived through that. So if you want to come to my level, remember my kaupapa. And remember, [01:22:00] every table that I sit at, I am worthy to be here because I have earned it. Every room that I enter, I will not ask for your respect, but demand it, because my whakapapa says I deserve it. Does that make sense? So when you, if you go home and re watch the program, there are a lot of things, even my kids, when I started swearing, I don't swear in my normal day to day life. But I understood the importance of why Max was written the way [01:22:30] he was. What his story was. And it hurt to think, you know, you have to battle so hard in your life. And as you get older, you become less important. I heard someone on the panel say, Yeah, let's forget our past. We are slipping into that moontime of our lives. I know some of us on the panel are more than others. [01:23:00] But, let's not forget our moontime. Let's not forget them. And in your own way, send your own love letter. I have to share, as part of the series, there was a poignant part of Gigi's story. Has everybody watched it? Because I don't want to ruin it for anybody. So when she passes on, that's reminded me why it was so powerful was because that actually happened to one of our sisters Alexa. [01:23:30] Down here. She hadn't been in touch with their family for over 20 years. She had a partner at the time. She passed away, um, and her family come down and got her and put her male name on her coffin. And there was nothing, the sisters or her partner could do, really, because they trumped, you know, whakapapa trumps. And that was what was significant for me, because it was like a paying respect for what she went through. Even though she's a [01:24:00] kaitiaki for me now. Yeah, so it was such a, and it was so good. The series was, it's because everything's reality TV now. You know, no disrespect to it. You know, it's still getting the message out there. But it was lighthearted, dramedy. And it was cool. It was cool fun. It was my first time acting ever. And it was such a cool experience. Especially with this one. Because you're just a whole experience. Thanks. But you know, you know, like Gigi said, that was just one [01:24:30] story of our community. If you were Takatāpui in Raukau, for example, I've heard stories where you were buried outside of your cemetery. Because your blood might contaminate the, the earth. You know, thank goodness that practice has stopped. But you know, when, when you think about the program, and I, I sincerely trust that you, you look at it through a different lens now, you know, remembering this korero, remembering this whakapapa, because the more you remember and the more we talk about it, [01:25:00] the more enlightened and for every korero that happens, for every conversation, somewhere up there they're sparkling and going, oh, did you remember that? Did you hear that story? You know, and I, I believe. They live a little bit longer. Does that make sense? Yeah, thank you. Thank you very much. Thanks. Um, sorry. Sorry. Thank you very much. It's [01:25:30] not quite over yet, folks. Uh, we're gonna open the floor up for Q and A. And then, um, after questions and answers, uh, Adam's gonna close out with a cut of care. We will have tea and coffee and biscuits for people. But we also want to, um, invite you to Go to the next floor and have a look at the evergreen coffeehouse lunch line But are there any other partnery that you and Jo wanted to share with everybody? I just wanted to highlight this young queen, my little niecey poos, because I'm [01:26:00] so proud of what she's achieved She's got, yeah, she might say don't worry about my other hats, google me. At least the bitch can be googled I'm so proud of where she's come from, you know, because we, And this is, highlights the significance of knowing who you are and being okay about your past and because without that journey, we wouldn't be able to sit here and have this conversation with you all, but I'm so proud of you, my darling. Yes, you shine your, [01:26:30] shine your light. Yes, because she has made me proud and all her whanau too, obviously, because she's very mana wahine for me. And I'm so proud of her. And my sister Hinu, Te Kira, could you please stand up and say hello my sister? So my sister, she's been an inspiration for me. She know why? Her sister was, um, Tiana. That's her biological sister. Tiana. No, no, from Te Kira. Tiana from [01:27:00] Hastings, over there. You talk about Tiana, I should have named her Tiana. Yeah. So she's the sister, so she raised her cousins, two children from birth. And a lot of us whakawahine have aspired to do that. I've done it vicariously through my nieces and nephews, but I can hand them back. They still cost me a lot of money today, you know. But she's so mana wahine there for me, because she's done it. Like, and she can say she did it. Those are my kids. Don't you whakawahine touch them, you know. [01:27:30] But love them, and love yous. And sister Leilani. Yes, you have been a bit of a journey with me over the past. She was the DJ that used to always play Deborah Cox for me when I was wasted. At the Pound. Hurry up so I can dance. Yes, nobody's supposed to be here. Be quiet. Who has not wanted to ask questions? I'll give the mic and you guys can pass it around. Oh, and I wanted to thank Gareth and um, Gareth and Roger [01:28:00] from Pride New Zealand. Um, they've been recording the conversation. I hope everybody is okay with that. And um, we're really lucky that these two have been archiving our queer history. Uh, check out their website. It's really good for me too when I've missed events. I can go back and listen to everybody talking like you can do with this once it's up on the website. So thanks guys. I just wanted to ask, um, is there a second season of The Boy and the Queen and everything in between? [01:28:30] Well, I have spoken with Ramon, and so she's actually already written two more seasons, but because of the funding cuts from this fabulous government not, um, she's trying to source funding to have the second season. That's wonderful news. Thank you. It was really good. Thank you. So just on, a little bit on the series. Um, there's a lady over here that might need the mic. Thank you. [01:29:00] Um, just a little bit on the series. When we started, two weeks after the program aired, we become six in the country. On the third week, we were second built, top in the country. So that was a huge achievement, especially considering, um, TVNZ were talking to us about the LGBTI content And that it may not be accepted by the New, by a New Zealand audience to make it second in the country. That was an achievement. So that was great to all the people that came [01:29:30] by. A couple of weeks after we aired the show, within three weeks, The series went to Australia and within three days it was second top. The series has just been sold to Seattle, Washington. So they had it at a premiere in Canada. And so it's become an international, um, entity in itself. And there are, there are quite a lot of pockets of countries that are, that are wanting to have it purely because of the uniqueness and the, the [01:30:00] reality of what this co papa talks about. So that's good. Thank you very much. Just thought you'd inform you with that. Thank you. Sorry, your question. Kia ora, this may be a little wandery. Um, thank you both very much for your, your lovely kōrero. And also, particularly thank you, Jo. I remember hearing you sing in Marion Street in one of those evenings when I used to be there. Um, my name is Kay. And I first went to the Evergreen in 1974 as a teenager. So you know, [01:30:30] and, and just sharing that, that aroha, that feeling that this is a haven for queer people was there, um, for all people. So I'm Pākehā, you know, totally sort of love that it's a haven for Takatāpui and all the other people, but it was a space that had that. And then later in the eighties, there was a group of young queer. Um, women and Waka Wahine and the others who were doing sandwiches and drop in at the Evergreen, that was in the 80s. So [01:31:00] I'm just wondering, I know it moved around a little bit, do you have memories of different physical spaces that the Evergreen was in and how that came about? Because I remember Carmen and I remember Chrissie and, and different people running things, but it wasn't always in the same space. No, so that, no, from my experience Once the Evergreen was gone, that whole This is the last generation of sisterhood, as far as I'm concerned. Um, [01:31:30] today's generation might word it differently, but in terms of what we experienced in my generation, it ended here, with these girls. Actually stand up, sisters! From, um, they travelled all the way from Hastings. You know, and they're the ones that have, they've held on to the respect factor of the historical. As far as I, I will, yeah. Do you [01:32:00] remember moving around though, did they have different venues? For evergreen or was it just evergreen was just in one space? Yeah, and it didn't There was a thing like I mean, I know when Carmen had The the balcony and sort of for the shows and I went there and saw you know that that was a wonderful performance I mean at the 80s Wellington was wonderful. Oh, right. You know, so there were different queer spaces that people did have as well. And [01:32:30] I only knew the Vivian Street sort of everything. I was just reading a bit, sort of, you know. The other, well, Alfies. They had Alfies on Dixon. Oh, and Kaspers and Pound. Yeah, and then Pound came about. But, more so, because, it Unfortunately, but I don't know, I think some of the Atakatapui whānau back in the 80s were fearful of the queens, of trans, the whakawahine, because it wasn't as amalgamated. Um, we were [01:33:00] very segregated. Even when we'd go to the queen, um, um, the gay nightclubs, like Pound, I was very, um, popular at the Pound through Macmillan Scotty, because I had a relationship with them, but also I made relationships with some, um, Um, prolific, uh, Takatāpui, um, Tāne and Wāhine, um, through my journey. But some, you know, there's some that, oh, you know, are you friends with them? With the girls? Because we were fighters. We literally had to fight on the streets to [01:33:30] survive. Um, you know, and I have to share this. I never got beaten up by, once, by a man. Because I visually always saw a man with a, because we would, you know, like they say, there's that saying, Stilettos are, wear a repin. Trust and believe they were. That's why we would really wear them. And, um, I would always see my father's face. So, I wasn't, you weren't going to beat me anymore. And, but that was in, in spite. We were, you know, we kept breaking [01:34:00] blistered knuckles or cut knuckles. And then get up and then mince it again next job. You know. And then ironically, those ones that would get cheeky, or have a fight, come back black and blue, and say, oh, fuck off, what do you want now? They go, how much is it for a blowjob? Why don't you just come out and say that in the start? Instead of putting yourself through all that misery. Trust and believe, and that's a common, and the sisters will say, it's a common factor that the ones that have got a problem are [01:34:30] usually the ones that want to change. Yeah. Kia ora. I actually grew up with, um, Chrissy, Carmen, with Ricky. I was 14 when I ran away from home and ended up at the Doodle and up at Molesworth Street. It was our very first topless restaurant. And no one had a clue how old I was at that time. And I started working there, making money so I could actually live with Ricky. And strange enough, over the years, [01:35:00] one of the things the Queen's taught me, they said to me, it was really interesting because I'm, I'm not, I'm not gay, they said to me, you'll be a queer one day. And they did right, I've got there now. But they actually guided me through my education. I went to Vic and I got my first degree in education. I went over to Australia and did um, Two years over there with the support of my queer whanau here, [01:35:30] I became, I picked up on open plan teaching. I came back here, had to do a couple of years of Christchurch. That was a hell hole. The queens down there didn't accept me because I wasn't gay. So, I just left that and then when I came back up here, Carmen was running Light for Council. And she had gypsum. And one of the memories I remember, we all went away and we were in the middle of the far north and we were doing a concert up there. [01:36:00] Gypsy, in the afternoon, Gypsy got all dressed up and we're walking along this dirt track type of road and this milk truck comes along and Gypsy's the Queen of Queens, looking like the Queen of Queens and he nearly runs over and she chops our faces off. Over the fence, all you see is fishnets and high heels, and we'd go flying across the top of a fence. And I remember my kids, I had two little kids, [01:36:30] and they said to me, what's Nanny Gypsy doing? And I says, getting out of the way of a truck. But these memories and all of these things led me into Parliament, it led me into the Māori Party, it led me back to do my Masters. And if it wasn't for Gypsy, Chrissie, Chrissie used to always say to me, Oh you dyed your hair girl, have you just lost a partner? And I'd go, are you? [01:37:00] But she was right. She knew me inside out. So when I heard you played um, Yeah, I thought Aunty Millie would be looking down on you saying, do it right, save some money and do it at cut price. I learnt all those things and I didn't realise how brash I was. And funny enough, my daughter's just come over from Perth and she's a chartered accountant, another one. See this has let down my [01:37:30] kids. All my kids have got degrees. Now I would never have had a degree. Because I had no home when I was 14. It took the Queens of Wellington. And yeah, I patched up a lot of our queens that got hurt. And I also went back to Ōtaki with one of them that died. And that was on the streets of Abern Street. And so, yeah, the young people don't realise all the pain and suffering that our queens went through [01:38:00] making a pathway for them. And it's no different than the young Afro American children that are killing each other and the lives that their people have actually lost, like Martin Luther King and Malcolm X. So this is the same sort of thing in Aotearoa. They are people, and one of the things that Chrissie taught me was look after, manaaki ki te tangata, which means look after people. It's not just about me, [01:38:30] it's about everybody. And that's what she taught, taught me right up until the last part of her life. And I just hope I've honoured her by doing what I can to make a better world for not only, um, our gay people, but also our Māori people. So, kia ora. That's beautiful korero. Just behind you, my love. Just behind you. for your, for your korero. Thank you. [01:39:00] Hi. Thank you. I just wanted to say, um, uh, thank you. Thank you for having this event. I don't know if you can hear me all right. I'm not used to talking into this. Um, I just want to say that, uh, yeah, I've seen the, uh, the, uh, Evergreen as like a, was a family owned thing. Cause, you know, Aunty Millie was just as much of that place too back in the day. Um, I came to Wellington in 81. Didn't know anyone.[01:39:30] Went on a work skills scheme, and there was um, Yvette, Renee, and Serena, and they took me home. And they saved my life. And the Evergreen saved my life, because it gave me a group of people that didn't care who I was, so long as you're a nice person, that's all I cared about, um, and they had great values, and fun, and Um, life [01:40:00] skills, you know, I learned everything, you know, through those people. Um, and, uh, the shows that were put on back in the day, back in the day I say, you know, um, with, um, Georgie and Dana DePaul and, you know, um, Yvette, Renee, you know, they were just incredible. Um, Georgie was also part of, um, the, the, Alfie's group in Auckland, Bloomers, they came [01:40:30] down here and bought their show a couple of times. It was just incredible. And Chrissy would say, you know, it didn't matter who who you are so long as you're nice, you're in, you know, and um, About the coffees, you know, I just wanted a real coffee. I couldn't drink it because Aunty Millie would say, I look after you darling and dear boy. And I'd be like, no, I don't want that coffee, you know. And Violet in her toasted sandwiches, you know, um, [01:41:00] she was amazing. Des, Des Cooper was always there. Um, you know, um, and some of the funniest times I had was sitting in the front booth with Renee. And, um, Rene would say things in my ear as people came in. You know, she'd be either calling them their old dead names or she'd be, she'd be saying things about them and it was just so funny. It was a send off, eh? You'd send off each other. It was just incredible, [01:41:30] you know. And, um, yeah, send everyone up and everything, and I can remember hearing you and Mariah singing down Marion Street on a many a night. Um, and, um, yeah, they were the best times of my life. And, um, Alexis, um, when Alexis first, um, transitioned, uh, Yvette taught, um, um, um, Alexis a lot of stuff. So she had a same way of performing. Yeah. Yeah. That's why [01:42:00] and I don't know if you guys know, but you know, uh, remember licks across the road. Well, the, the girl in the champagne glass was actually drawn by Viet and, um, Brian came out to, I used to live with Evette and Keitha out at, um, Elsdon and for a while. And, um, he came out, um, and. I can remember him looking at, because Yvette used to put her face in all the pictures, and um, I can remember Brian going, well we [01:42:30] might just change the face a little bit, you know, soften it up sort of thing. But I used to go past that picture, and I'd be so proud, you know, that my friend did that picture, and you know, it was just such pride and lots of things back then. Um, unfortunately I feel like when we all became equal, we lost our community, you know. And, um, but yeah, so that's what I wanted to say. And, um, as far as your, um, your, uh, [01:43:00] series goes, I have binge watched it so many times. I have laughed, I have cried, I have, you know, it's an emotional journey. I loved every bit of it. Um, But please it's gotta continue 'cause I need to know who the mom is. . So do we. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Um, I just wanted to ask, you've mentioned, both of you [01:43:30] have mentioned a couple of times that the younger generation coming through now has. We've sort of lost, there's a lack of respect, a lack of community. Do you have any thoughts or ideas on sort of how that's happened and what you'd like the community of young people today to look like? Well, um, that's why I wanted to highlight what Saviiey's doing in her mahi. Um, she's actually picked up that mantle for the younger generation. [01:44:00] Unfortunately, um, she can only reach so far. We're only octopus thieves, not octopus. Um, but she's doing it vicariously through her mahi. And I think, to be honest, um, I don't know if they'll ever, um, be able to get their essence of these memories of that sisterhood. They could create their own, but I mean, I'm working with a couple at the moment, [01:44:30] um, because I'm a community support worker for CCS Disability Action, and what's common from the young trans people that I've met on my journey now, in this generation, they're suffering from a lot of, um, um, Doubt and a lot of harm. Self harm is out there for them. So I think that's what's lacked for them, is that bond of becoming part of a sisterhood. That, like, I've got relationships, and just [01:45:00] like sister over here's just shared, she's held on to that, the relationship she, and the fire over here that shared that. I don't know whether they can have that for them, to be able to look back on. They could create something like that, but it will never ever have the same essence. Unless, like these shows, like the Boy the Queen and everything in between, as some, an avenue for them to aspire, or to, you know, cause nothing, um, don't get me wrong, [01:45:30] everything in the community and society today, even though it's different, you can still, you know, Grab hold and create your own, you know, sisterhood. But I don't ever think it will ever look like that because there's too much of this technology stuff. If you ain't got one of these on, in your face, you know, we were from a generation, when I was on the ascent of it, these queers over here, they're the ones that paved the way too. They walked as part of their journey.[01:46:00] Um, so I don't think they, The technology, and it's all aspirational, is to be better than, I've got this, you've got, you know. We had fuck all, but we still had a lot of love for each other, and we had each other's backs. And I don't know if that's prevalent today, you know. And you know, in addressing your comment, everything in our community has its purpose, and is valid. So even though it looks different to us, or it looks different to, I'm just going to speak on [01:46:30] my own behalf, It looks different to me with young people and I think that the journey that they've been on is very much televised It's not real. So when you're looking at RuPaul's Drag Race, for example, that's a television program guys You know and you have to have 2, 000 earrings or else you're not, you're not current. You're not real. That, that's fake but because of our, the way that our world is going now, You know, you, you [01:47:00] put on something and you could have somebody 10, 000 miles away that hates your shoes. Then someone that doesn't like your earrings, to one person. They, they don't like your handbag or they don't like what you said on social media. That bully tactic, you get one comment and another comment and another comment. Of course, that one child who's trying to find themselves is going to find this world very difficult to navigate in. So when you say, what does that look like? To me, that's [01:47:30] what that looks like. To me, that's where, um, I guess, in our community, there aren't enough platforms like this, you know, to have these corridors. But another thing I think we all need to take into respect, maybe they don't want to know about your past. Like that girl said, we don't need to know about our history. Maybe that's the reality. And if that's the case, so be it. Because we all have our own journeys. We all have our own kōrero, and it is valid, [01:48:00] and it means something. It may look different through my lens, but to their lens, this is their reality. So I, I, and answering your question, I, I don't know, unless, like I don't know where they can go, unless they go to handsome people like this one here, creating this whakaaro. You know, unless they go to the libraries, and they have to want to know. Like, do you want to know about your past? Do you want to know about Chrissy Weetoko? Do you actually? [01:48:30] Because that means that you have to step out of where you live right now. Step out of your comfort zone. Step out of your mindset. And not buy into all this bully tactic on the interweeb. Interweeb? You know, one of those. Don't buy into all that. And I feel sorry for the amount of bullying that I hear. You know, and then you look at our statistics in New Zealand. Between the ages of 17 and 34, people that identify as, um, LGBTI, they have got, they, [01:49:00] they are 70 percent, they fall into the 70 percent category of suicides. And again, I bring it back to your, your attention, the resilience is gone. How do you sustain a, a, a, a breath when you're getting hounded by people that don't even know you? You know, how do you, I can't afford the 10 thing, so I can't go out. Someone doesn't like my shirt, I'm going to die. You know, and I say that jokingly and I shouldn't, but that's the reality [01:49:30] of now. So I guess unless we have these forums and unless we have this kōrero, young people won't know because they don't have that, that ability to step out of, out of themselves. This is just my thoughts. Does that answer your question? Joke. Thank you both for, well, everyone who shared their, their experiences. Yeah, kia ora. I wanted to sort of carry on with that question. [01:50:00] Um, I am here today as a sex work activist. I'm Takatāpui Ngāti Raukawa, a performance artist, drag queen, and I just want to speak on being that younger generation of a sex worker. I do feel that tremendous responsibility and being Māori, understanding that stories are so valuable. I really want to thank you all. Thank you. When I perform I want you to know I feel that mana and I like that I have Pakiha skin because I get to penetrate Pakiha spaces and go Ha ha ha! You guys need to respect the whores and the [01:50:30] trans and the Ha ha ha ha! And I really want to let you know that there are younger generation of sex workers and trans youth out there I'm you know part of many houses as a drag reformer. We know We tell those stories over kai and we are doing our part to educate the youth. So tena koutou. I am listening. Thank you. Namahe.[01:51:00] Thank you very much for allowing us this privilege to share these stories. Thank you to my co panelists, to Leilani and to the venue. Thank you very much. Thank you also to those that have traveled. So good to see you guys. For those that have come to share their memories and to uphold the kaupapa of the Evergreen. Like [01:51:30] Leilani said, go through and have a look at the Evergreen poster. If you get an opportunity, please watch the boy, the queen and everything in between and then like and subscribe. That would be great. Karakia, I was going to do one in Maori, but I think The majority of us speak English, so I'd like to do it in English. Um, if we can bow our heads in prayer. Heavenly Father, we're so grateful for our health and our well being. We are [01:52:00] privileged and honored to hear this kaupapa and the truth of it. We ask that you bless us with the health and the wisdom and the knowledge to go forth as a community and as people and share this light. We ask that you give us the ability to be kind to one another, to be virtuous in what we do. We ask that if you are struggling at this time, that you find and seek help and korero. We ask these blessings and we are thankful for so many. In the name of Christ, amen.

IRN: 3842
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ATL URL: 
TITLE: Protect sexual education resources in schools
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VOICES: Ayesha Verrall; Ceri Giddens; Cherida Fraser; Kay Jones; Sam French; Stephanie Mills; Tabby Besley; Val Little
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Ayesha Verrall; Ceri Giddens; Cherida Fraser; Drag Storytime; Education Review Office (ERO); GOD (Grumpy Old Dyke); InsideOUT Kōaro; Kay Jones; Miramar North School; NZEI Te Riu Roa; NZEI Te Riu Roa Wellington Rainbow Network; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; National Schools Pride Week; Relationships and sexuality education (RSE); Roastbusters; Sam French; Stephanie Mills; Tabby Besley; Val Little; West Coast; bathrooms; bisexual; community; consent; diverse sexuality; diversity and inclusion; education; gay; gender; gender expression; gender identity; inclusive language; inclusive space; karakia; kindness; kura; lesbian; love; makeup; non-binary; parents; primary school; queer straight alliance (QSA); relationships; resource; respect; school; sexual identity; sexuality; suicide; takatāpui; teacher; teaching; whakatauki; youth
DATE: 25 July 2024
YEAR: 2024
LOCATION: NZEI Te Riu Roa, Level 6, 79 Boulcott Street, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Audio from the event: Protect sexual education resources (RSE) in schools, co-hosted by NZEI Te Riu Roa and Rainbow Wellington. The event was held at the national offices of the NZEI in Wellington on 25 July 2024. It also marked the launch of the NZEI Te Riu Roa Wellington Rainbow Network. Speakers included Cherida Fraser - Wellington Regional Coordinator for NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective and is the board chair at Miramar North School; Tabby Besley - Managing Director and Val Little - Wellington Schools Coordinator at InsideOUT Kōaro; Stephanie Mills - National Secretary at NZEI Te Riu Roa; Sam French - Chair at Rainbow Wellington; Labour MP Ayesha Verrall and Kay Jones. Note some parts of the event were not recorded.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: July 2024
TEXT: I'm a primary school teacher, I teach at Koronui School out in the hut, I teach children who are Year 4, 5 and 6, I am the co convener [00:00:30] of, what's our official title, Roa Rainbow Network, along with my friend Brooke here, and I am your MC for this evening. So, Te Kaupapa, or Te Naipo, are meeting for two key purposes. First, to uphold the value of the Relationship and Sexuality Education Guidelines in schools and kura, and to oppose their [00:01:00] removal. Two, to launch the NZEI Te Riu Roa Rainbow Network officially. Um, all right, we have Sherida Fraser. Before you, before I let you come up here, a little bit of context on her. Sherida is Wellington Regional Coordinator for NZPC, Aotearoa Sex Workers Collective, and is the Board Chair of the NZPC. at Miramar North School. She has three tamariki, age 9, 11 and [00:01:30] 14 years. Kia ora koutou. Thank you for having me. I'm a little bit nervous. I do quite a bit of public speaking, but not to teachers in this kind of space. So, um, and it's been interesting, you know, when I thought about what I wanted to say today, um, I had a hundred things that I've got so many opinions, um, about, um, Why we need to hold on to the RSE curriculum. But I suppose I started thinking [00:02:00] about my own community. Um, I was thinking about how community provides for us. And, you know, my son lost his basketball yesterday at school, and I put it on the Facebook group and somebody found it and we got it back. And, you know, tonight I've got two different parents getting my kids from swimming pool and rugby practice to make sure I can be here to speak. And, you know, I've had. My teenage daughters had friends over to stay the night when snapchats got [00:02:30] dramatic and they've had a dark day and yeah, they can just come over and stay the night. Um, and it's kind of, um, a beautiful, beautiful thing when community provides because it just really warms our hearts and we have this sense of connection and belonging to community. It's like a warm hug. And, you know, how does this relate to the RSE curriculum? Because the RSE curriculum supports [00:03:00] like a shared set of values of respect and inclusion. Um, how to be a good friend. How to respect each other's space. Appropriate language for our tamariki to use when they chat amongst themselves. And a code of conduct for engaging online. It empowers our kids to like, grant consent, refuse consent, withdraw consent, have the language to do that. Um, and it really supports empowerment and resilience and respect and kindness and [00:03:30] community, the community values that we all hold dear. As a board member and a board chair, it's my role at Miramar North to ensure that our school policies support best practice and, you know, to steer. I don't know if anyone's done the board training, but it's all about steering the ship. Um, so when we decided to celebrate Pride in Schools, it was a real no brainer. And while, you know, I was curious if we'd [00:04:00] have pushback as a primary school, there's not many primary schools out there I don't think yet that still, that celebrate Pride in Schools week. Um, But, you know, I was resolute that it was our responsibility as a board to provide that sense of belonging for every single child. And statistically, at our school of about 270, there's probably about 20 kids or so. that will identify with the rainbow community. And, [00:04:30] which is why every part of the RSE curriculum is important and because we just can't let those 20 kids down. And we can't let the rest of the community down either because it takes everybody. And I know it makes a difference. When I stood on the rugby sideline last year and met the new brand new queer family that had just escaped Trump in America and arrived at MNS, I knew they would feel a sense of belonging and [00:05:00] community at our school, and they did. And when I see kids at school expressing their individuality, especially during Pride Week, you know, when we had drag story time, and I heard the story about, you know, Kids put their hands up for questions and there's one, there's one kid, um, who was just like, where did you get your eye shadow? Very pressing. Sounded great. Um, you know, that drag story time was for [00:05:30] that kid really and it would have changed that kid's life I reckon. Well, certainly enhanced it. So, um, I know we're heading in the right direction with this current RSE curriculum. Don't fix what's not broken, at all. And, um, I've got a whakatuki as well, which is pretty, uh, expected really. He waka eke noa. It is about community and this is why we need to keep these guidelines.[00:06:00] Next, we have our lovely. Managing Director, and Val Little, Wellington School's Coordinator from Inside Out. Hi there Maya, welcome. so much for putting on this event and for having us here. Um, yeah, maybe to start with I'll just talk a little bit about Inside Out, let Val speak to the work that you do locally, and then maybe I'll just have RSC off the top of my head. [00:06:30] Um, but, uh, hopefully, or, has anyone not heard of Inside Out? Inside Out. Well, that's lovely. That's lovely to hear. We've got no hands. So, um, hopefully that's pretty straightforward then, but our vision is for all Rainbow and Takatāpui young people to have a sense of safety and belonging in their schools and communities across Aotearoa. We were founded in 2012 and we've been working towards that kind of ever since. And we're now at a point where we have, um, regional schools coordinators in every region across Aotearoa that can go [00:07:00] into schools Um, as well as someone covering, um, kind of, nationwide, um, kura kaupapa, and we're able to, yeah, provide a whole range of supports, um, for them. We also provide, um, training for workplaces and consultation services to help, um, workplaces become more inclusive. Um, we do a lot of advocacy work. Um, and use development programs as well. And maybe I'll let Val talk a little bit about your role and anything you want to share. Tēnā koutou katoa. Ngā mihi nui kia koutou. Thank you so much for the [00:07:30] opportunity. I have not prepared anything, so what comes out of my mouth is just completely unrehearsed. So I use she, they pronouns, um, identify as a lesbian, a dyke, a queer woman, a god, which is a grumpy old dyke. Um, I had decided when the role came up at Inside Out that I would apply for it because of this current government. I feel like, um, things are going backwards. Um, I've been around a long time [00:08:00] and, um, have seen a lot of changes, social changes, and a lot of things that have been really positive in terms of our movement. And I feel like it's going backwards. Um, so I jumped at the chance to step back in there in the trenches, um, as an elder. And so, um, I'm so proud. I feel very privileged every day to be in this role. Um, yeah. So my job is to go into schools and to, um, to make sure that they are well supported to, um, [00:08:30] support their rainbow and takatapoi young people, um, to make them feel safe and included. So that might look like, um, working with the school on their policies so that the language is inclusive. Um, looking at, you know, what are their bathroom situations like, um, are young people comfortable to use the bathroom that they most feel comfortable in? that, you know, that they can identify with. Um, do they have a QSA, a Queer Straight Alliance group, a, [00:09:00] you know, a support group for the young Takatāpui Rainbow kids to meet and mingle and have fun together and to talk about some of the issues? Um, uh, we run training for teachers, um, professional development around how to be inclusive, um, and things like that. So, yeah. And I guess, you know, in terms of the REC stuff, um, kids will find out, they will find out if they wanna find out about sexuality, about gender, about sex, about anything, [00:09:30] um, to do with their bodies. They will find out, so if we take away something that is, that is well researched, that is working, um, that is safe, then we are putting them at huge amounts of harm. Um, you know, not all the schools in Wellington, there are 250 schools in the Wellington region that I work with, I'm 25 hours a week. So, um, I actually am only 25 years old, it's a good job, um, but [00:10:00] yeah, so not all the schools are supportive, of course, um, but what I do know is that there will be queer kids in all of the schools, um, and yeah, and in terms of primary schools, a lot of the primary schools are jumping on board with Pride Weeks, um, yeah, and, uh, one of the schools in the region reached out recently to, to have a, um, like a whanau evening. How do we talk to our kids about gender? And not about, you know, the child has come out as trans, or [00:10:30] non binary, or they're questioning, but how do we talk about gender in a way that it opens the doors for people? So it doesn't necessarily mean that they are going to be trans, or non binary, or gay, or lesbian, or pan, or bi, or whatever, but it also means that they're not going to be that, and those conversations can come later. So, um, yeah, I think Yeah, without blowing the horn of, Inside Out is an incredibly, incredibly valuable organisation and I think it actually does save lives, um, [00:11:00] and I think the RSE is just absolutely vital for, um, rangatahi safety and sanity, and that's all I have to say. Yeah. Um, I wasn't going to talk about why it's important because I think that's something we all know but, um, I think when you were sharing, um, a story came to mind of a few years ago we were, um, Inside Out, me and a colleague were, um, in a primary school in the west coast [00:11:30] of all places, um, and somehow they'd let us in to do some gender sexuality work, um, with a group of, um, yeah, with their kind of older, you know, Um, and it, you know, it's not going into this is all the letters of the, you know, it's not like high level. Is that, is those more kind of, yeah, what is gender? How, how does it make people feel when we say that's, you know, that's, um, something for only for girls and these types of things. And at the end of the workshop, a, um, a young person came up [00:12:00] and, um, let us know that they had a elder sibling. Um, Um, you know, an elder trans sibling, um, who, you know, is no longer with us, um, because they hadn't had any support in their community or, or in schools and so on and, um, for them, yeah, you could see that things, things clicked that day and they, they just really appreciated the kind of acknowledgement of, yeah, these are people, you know, amongst us but also in our whanau and so on and so, I think that's, yeah, that's so important as well, um, kind of, again, it's not just the 20 kids in the classroom, it's, [00:12:30] um, you know, most of us do have rainbow people in our. Lives or will do at some point. It's actually a very small minority that kind of tried to pretend these people do not exist! Um, and want to avoid that so that education is so important for all of us to um be able to Yeah, I mean, it's suicide prevention um and it's Violence prevention, like, yeah, if so many of us had had that when we were growing up, we may have had really, really different experiences, and there's so many people that would still be, be with [00:13:00] us, um, really, sadly as well, after that workshop later one day, um, looking at the New Conservatives Facebook group. page because they like to attack us. Um, I saw in comments that um, actually a parent from that school had withdrawn their children from that school after hearing that we'd come and done that workshop. Um, and that was so, that was so sad especially knowing how impactful it had been for some of the students there. Um, just, yeah. But yeah, some people are not, not willing for their young people to be exposed [00:13:30] to, um, vital education. Yeah. Um, yeah, I guess I want to talk a little bit about, um, an update that might be new for most people that, um, the Ministry of Education has commissioned ERO to do, um, an evaluation of RFC in schools, um, which to us is quite positive news, um, to actually do that piece before, um, any further action. ERA is very independent, so it means, um, the research questions have been agreed on with the minister, [00:14:00] um, however, the government can't control what the report says and what the findings of that are, so that's actually really powerful. Um, um, myself, uh, and, uh, many, like, school principals and, um, there's a representative from NCDI, um, rugby network and so on, um, Um, have been appointed to an expert advisory group to support this, um, evaluation of RSing in schools. So, um, that's a quite recent, exciting to me. Um, I'm always [00:14:30] like cautiously optimistic about things. Um, yeah, just really hopeful that, um, that means that, um, Even, I guess we can't, again, control, um, what the government decides to do at the end of it, um, but hopefully there'll be a really thorough, um, research and consultation process that, um, shows the importance and actually maybe says, hey, we could go a little bit further on some of those things, like, um, why are they only guidelines, is always what I think, because Um, that is, yeah, that is the case that they should, you know, it's kind of, should be mandatory in my opinion, um, [00:15:00] and I think really important for anyone working in schools to know because, um, it has been a bit confusing with the coalition agreement that, um, those guidelines are still out there. There's no, nothing stopping anyone from using them, um, now, or, in fact, if the government were to remove them, unless, um, they did something like pass a, like, don't say gay type bill in Aotearoa, which I really don't think is where, you know, not at that point. Um, so those, you know, those still are out there and it is up to schools to decide their curriculum in consultation with their [00:15:30] school community. So one of the biggest things that people can do is get on school boards, um, really encourage parents, particularly those parents of our rainbow whānau to attend RSC consultations when those come up in their schools. Um, and another way that anyone will be able to feed in, um, is because this will be considered alongside the refresh of the health curriculum, um, later this year, I believe, um, submissions will open up and so people can, yeah, feed into what should be in that curriculum. So that is an opportunity where all of us should be able to [00:16:00] kind of have a, have a voice and, um, for teachers, um, and whanau will be particularly important to have your voices kind of heard. So, um, I think, again, while it's, yeah, while we know what the coalition agreement says, things aren't in process, they haven't been removed yet, so it's really important that we take these opportunities and, um, yeah, really stand up and fight for our communities and our rights, um, to be acknowledged and, um, taught in schools because, um, it's, yeah. So, so, so important, um, [00:16:30] yeah, and hey, maybe we could actually get something even stronger out of it, um, and important, I think, yeah, I guess maybe one last thing would be that I know those, um, people in government and so on are hearing a lot from, um, I guess anti trans people, from really conservative, um, people. Minded people, uh, school principals, with Schools Pride Week and things, are receiving all these copy and paste letters organized by anti trans groups that parents will then send to complain and so on. Um, they're not, [00:17:00] none of these people are hearing enough from us, from rainbow communities, from, um, whanau of rainbow young people, or allied parents, and actually that's really important too. Those parents who, um, they not have rainbow young people, but are supportive. And so I really encourage as well, the more that we can spread, um, the message for those people to email their school and say, Oh, thank you for running Schools Pride Week. That was so awesome. Um, or, yeah, email the Minister of Education and say, Oh, Inside Out came and did a training at our school and it was amazing. We love their work and, um, this is why this [00:17:30] is so important. Or, for those of us, you know, what difference this would have made if I was at high school, those types of things. Um, because otherwise they're getting quite a one sided view. So that's, Yeah, just a few ideas that I'd, um, suggest of proactive things that we can do, and thank you. Applause Tēnā kōrua. Ngā mihi nui mōo. Beautiful. Kia ora. Um, I [00:18:00] just want to make sure I get your title. Correct. Um, Stephanie Mills, National, um, National Secretary, NZEI. Tēnā koe. Tēnā koe. te whānau. Um, really warm welcome, naumaharawai, to our space. Um, I hope you'll come again. You know, um, we, we see this as not the start or end of something, but, um, part of the union's journey, and we really strongly support, um, the network that's being launched formally tonight. Um, [00:18:30] I was just reflecting that, um, my uncle, who's 84, I think, um, I remember him telling me when, um, he wrote, uh, a lovely piece. for my daughter who was studying homosexual law reform at school in history, about his experience of being gay growing up. And he said that he realised when he was two. And so he was the first lawyer to go to the Law Society to know if In Auckland, apparently, with a gay partner. I mean, he's [00:19:00] very proud of these things. And he used to take me around all the gay bars when I was a student. Um, and so, I think, um, When you talked about love, Um, it is, it is. It's about love, it's about Araha. And we saw the community support for the marriage equality legislation. I think we are the majority. And when we're winning, People come after us, you know, and so I think you should never doubt that most people in this country and most people across the world Support love and support acts of love And [00:19:30] so I think When we're talking about RAC, it's important to put it in that context that we want our kids to be capable of love to be loved To identify as who they are Um, and my other personal anecdote is that my daughter was working on the RAC guidelines and, um, her faith in humanity was rather bashed at the age of 24 having to respond to some of the people out there. Um, but, you know, I think that wherever we come from in our lives, [00:20:00] um, we have the opportunity to stand up and speak up for love. And to stand up and speak up for collective power and collective, the collective of coming together, that is what gives us the strength to carry on. So, um, don't doubt that NZEI will be here. Um, come again and, um, thank you for coming tonight. And kia kaha. We see, we see again, Sam French, chair of Rambo Wellington, [00:20:30] haere mai anō. Thank you very much, um, as I mentioned, I'm a lawyer, I'm not a teacher, I have no expertise in this area, and I think, I'm sure a lot of you find that Education is one of the areas of politics in life that everyone has an opinion on. Um, I think that probably comes from everyone goes through 12 or 13 years of education themselves and they all have an idea of what a good teacher is, um, and what people should or shouldn't be learning, [00:21:00] long division by hand, etc. Um, but at some point we need to step back and go, actually, I'm not an expert in this area. Maybe I should listen to some people who are. And for me this is one of those areas where that is so relevant because Um, I believe the guidelines came from an ERA report where that said that this area, wasn't developed enough and It's been developed [00:21:30] by experts and then suddenly based off one little line in a coalition agreement We're supposed to be changing everything and it just doesn't quite make sense to me of why we're not leaving the some things to the experts. So it's been great to hear from, um, from some experts tonight and especially, um, some examples from, um, Val and Tabby of what, what we can do in the, [00:22:00] um, sort of space of communicating to people in power, what is important and what, what they, you think is working. Um, it's, it's basically, if everyone thinks back to how Um, I don't know about you, but for me it was non existent, right, and as Brooke said, we don't [00:22:30] suddenly get our queer identity in a health class at year 10. It's something that has been with you a long time, and if you, as a child, Have no one in your life that can help you sort of understand that, then that's a mental struggle that the heteronormative world doesn't understand. So I just really want to totoku the work that you're doing with the [00:23:00] network and on the guidelines. And please continue to let us know what we can get out to our members of what they can do to support your mahi. Thank you. Kia ora. If you have something prepared, I would love to welcome you up here, but I don't want to put you on the spot. Oh, you're ready. Love to hear it. Welcome. Um, tēnā koutou koutou. Thank you [00:23:30] so much for having me here this evening. It's good to see. Uh, friends old and, and new. I thought I'd start with some reflections as a parent, then as a politician, and then as a parent again. Uh, I think the first thing I want to say as a parent is if I think about, uh, I have an 11 year old daughter who's, school life has entirely been here in Wellington. And it started when she graduated from Kindy in a rainbow [00:24:00] korowai. And what a beautiful, inclusive education she has had. She has And that has never been an issue, and I do check with her. Um, for her, uh, her and her friendship groups, or between her and her teachers. Uh, and that's just such a wonderful thing to see how inclusive our schools have become. That wasn't the education that I had. I, [00:24:30] um, came out at the very end of my time at high school, even though I was probably aware that I was lesbian through, um, through all of that, uh, that time. But my school was, my school gave me a wonderful education. Goodness knows I was addicted to education at many stages in my life and spent an awful time in it. Uh, but, um, uh, but it was not a safe place for me. Um, for queer young people, that is, that is for sure. What is it, it's so important to [00:25:00] me, as a politician, that we use, um, that our public services are inclusive services that everyone can be part of. And education, that service we use, public education, to develop everyone's potential, surely that must be the most inclusive at all. Everyone must feel that when they arrive at school, they're valued for who they are. They are normal, uh, and they get to participate and learn and benefit from, uh, all the opportunities [00:25:30] that school has to offer. You can't have that if someone, either directly or indirectly, if it's implied that they're not a full part of the, of the community. That is so harmful. Even little things, we know. Uh, stack up in, in people's mind to build a sense that they're not welcome, they're not okay and that can have disastrous consequences down the track. I know from the very good work that Inside Out does that that has, um, mental health challenges for [00:26:00] people. In my own practice as a, as a doctor, I would see how it would have health challenges, medical health challenges for people. I dealt with a lot of people with HIV who had experienced stigma and shame. Uh, because of our inability to talk about, uh, sexuality and consent and, uh, that made their access and care so much more challenging. Uh, so I see what is at stake with this, uh, action against the guidelines is really our [00:26:30] inclusive community, a community where everyone matters and, uh, it is easy to politicize things. About teaching young people about sexuality, but it's actually about inclusion. It's about the basics that you need to be able to navigate, uh, your community, and I'm very aware that the guidelines, uh, show how to, uh, give those messages in an age appropriate way for our, for our professionals. So I'm very proud to be from the government that supported those [00:27:00] guidelines coming in, uh, and also to fight, uh, for them to be retained. This government is, as a previous speaker said, it is taking our country backwards. It is buying into disinformation, much of it manufactured overseas, in order to create wedges in our society, create a sense of who's other, who's not good enough, who might be dangerous teaching your kid, or whose kid is not okay. And there is sadly, Part of [00:27:30] human nature that can give in to that, but there are also things we can do to stop that. And I guess that's where I want to finish as a parent. Um, sometimes the most political action that we can take is about reaching out to the members in our community and about talking about these issues with them. And so, after a week of giving so many speeches in the House about social justice, So much that is wrong with this government, it is a reminder that, um, action about having ordinary conversations with the people in my [00:28:00] community about these things that are so important does matter, and I think if we do that, that is the way the sensible majority can assert itself about saying that. We don't think that children should be used as part of your coalition agreement to be able to make political, political points. And it is vitally important that our education is inclusive for all. So thank you very much for your attention and your commitment to this cause as well.[00:28:30] I'm feeling brave, I've put my clipboard down. My name is Kay Jones. I'm a former teacher and a queer parent and non binary. And so I just wish to sort of touch on the fact that when I was at school, which is decades ago, they skipped over sexual education as something [00:29:00] that was taught to fourth formers. It was in the books but we weren't allowed to read it because the teachers were too uncomfortable with the material to actually touch on that. There were a number of suicides at my high school. There were other issues. My son, who is now 28, um, when at high school, the 11, primary school, the 11 and 12 year olds wrote the school play, which made anti trans commentary. Anti tranny stuff. They wrote it themselves based on the types of [00:29:30] information they heard around them. And it was supposed to be a liberal school, so they were okay with gay people, but you know, gender? No, that wasn't something that was touched on. Getting to high school, high school was more inclusive, so there was more work there. But as a queer parent trying to educate my own son, there was that thing of kids listen to the other kids, and they bring home. The, the hate and the discontent, so that if you're not getting that information [00:30:00] going to the kids who are straight and cisgender, then they're going to be actually bringing it home on their queer and non binary and trans parents as well. Third one, when I wrote to Minister Stanford about what was going on, one of the issues I was concerned about was consent. Those of you who remember what happened with the Roast Busters case, there were 13 year old girls who were raped, who didn't have the words and the [00:30:30] terminology to describe what was going on, their peer group didn't know enough, it was something that was there troubling them. And of course, as we know, It's not just girls who get sexually assaulted in schools. So if you don't have the education in the schools, and you don't have the emphasis on consent, then you've got that much more risk of bad things happening to all the kids in the classes. So, thank you. Is that long? One minute?[00:31:00] We have got multiple methods to get involved. Boy howdy do we. So, you will have walked past just a plethora of QR codes. Each of them has a job. We have got a petition that's been ongoing for a hot minute now, um, to show your support of our stance on RSE guidelines. There is a QR code for [00:31:30] that over there. Um, if you have not yet read the aforementioned guidelines. And would like to. And I would recommend it. QR code on the wall for that. Different one. They're labelled. Um, there is an open letter to ministers from the Mental Health Foundation on the wall. Kia ora, I'm going to pass over now to Sam, who is going to wrap up with karakia. And then this guy. [00:32:00] Kia ora, very much. Um, so a closing karakia. Kua mutu a mātou mahi mō tēnei wā. Manaakitia mā mai mā katoa. A mātou hoa, a mātou whānau. Ao ki te ao rangi.

IRN: 3824
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TITLE: Peter Wells on Little Queen
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Peter Wells
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1950s; 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; About Face: Jewel's Darl (tv, 1985); Alison Maclean; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Australia; City Gallery Wellington Te Whare Toi; Cleopatra (film, 1963); From Scratch (group); Gregor Nicholas; Hello Darkness (book); Jane Campion; Jonathan Dennis; Little Queen (short film); Oxford Street (Sydney); Pansy (2001); Peter Wells; Pictorial Parade (short films); Point Chevalier; Portia Faces Life (soap opera); Queen Elizabeth II; Sydney; TVNZ (Television New Zealand); Tilly Lloyd; Unity Books; Wayne Laird; activism; adultery; bug house (a cinema); bullying; cancer; coronation; dog; film; gay; gender identity; homosexual law reform; imagination; leather; memory; objects; queen; queer; queer film; radio; reading; sexual identity; short film; sissy; soap opera; suburbia; television; transgender; transphobia; writing
DATE: 3 May 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: City Gallery Wellington Te Whare Toi, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Film maker and author Peter Wells, discusses his short film Little Queen (1984) at City Gallery Wellington Te Whare Toi, on 3 May 2018. The discussion was part of the May Tuatara Open Late event. A special thank you to City Gallery Wellington for allowing this recording to be shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: July 2024
TEXT: Well, Peter, it's been a very, um, special day for you. Uh, you started off by, um, talking with Tilly at Unity Books, excuse me, uh, Tilly at Unity Books about Dear Oliver, your, your latest, um, your latest book. And here we are this evening talking about one of your earliest, uh, films from, from 1983. Um, Having not seen this for the last 20 or so years, what are your initial impressions? Oh, well I thought it's, I think it's an [00:00:30] entirely mad film, really. I think it's got some really very beautiful images in it, which surprised me. I'd forgotten all about those sort of quite stark images. I'm not quite sure if I knew what I was doing with the film. In a way, um, I think I was trying to do too much with the film. I think I was trying to make a feature film in the format of a, um, a short film. I was trying to tell too much, I [00:01:00] think, in a short film. So what would you do differently now? Well, my very first film was all short. It was all voice over narration with images sliding through it. Um, and I thought for my second film, well okay, I've done that. I've done talk. Um, I'll do a silent film. This time, without [00:01:30] realizing the enormity of, of, of actually doing a silent film. Um, but having said that, I, the person who did the sound, structure of the film was Wayne, is Wayne, Wayne Laird. It was from scratch. So that, that's in a way why it's got this tremendously worked sound patina throughout the whole film. So you've got this, I mean, enormous level of sound happening all, all through, all [00:02:00] through the film. I'm sorry, I've led away into another whole area. So you say silent, but obviously there is a lot of sound going on. Yes, yes. And a lot of radio. Yes. So what was radio to you as a child? Well, you see, I was born in 1950, so radio was an enormous thing. And listening, when I, I managed to get away from school and was sick. Um, I used to love listening to a radio serial called [00:02:30] Portia Faces Life, which was a soap. It was a, it was a, I don't know if it was a morning or afternoon soap with all the sort of, narrative absurdity of a soap. So, at the beginning of the film here, we had a, we've got a radio soap with all the sort of dilemmas, emotional dilemmas of, of, I mean, it's actually adultery, I think, if you're listening carefully to what the narrative is about. So, no, radio meant a huge amount. In a [00:03:00] way, radio is a bit like reading. Um, you actually have to supply a lot yourself. So You're not actually that passive. You are actually imagining along with the sound. Um, so, I really like that aspect of radio. And I tried to give with the film some of that texture of the power of radio. It's interesting also that you use sound in a way to kind of enhance images, but also to [00:03:30] subvert them as well. Yes, yeah, yes. Well, I think you do everything you can. Throw everything at it, I think. I was really interested in, um, the way that you, or the construction of memories, and, um, you were three at the time that the Queen came through. So, is some of this your memories, and is some of it from somewhere else? Um, well, you know, you get into what is [00:04:00] memory, I suppose, which is a pretty large subject. Um, It is based on a memory I had of the Queen driving when she was in Auckland. I mean, they worked the Queen. In 53, 54, I mean she went everywhere, absolutely everywhere, and where we lived in Point Chevalier was by the municipal dump for Auckland. So she drove past the dump and came across my family and all the locals on the corner of the street, and this [00:04:30] is where this incident with the dog occurred. Um, the dog ran out towards the car and, um, That became a kind of the kernel of the whole story, because the dog became a total celebrity within Point Chevalier. Everyone wanted to touch it. You know, forever after it was the dog, you know, that had almost gone and run into the Queen's car. It was a sort of celebrity. So that was the sort of, that was a nutshell of the whole thing. Looking at it more as [00:05:00] an, as a, you know, uh, As a young gay man, there were other patinas laid over it to do with, um, memory fading, um, memory being unreal, um, the unreality of memory, um, and also I suppose the whole film is based on the duality of the word queen. Um, you know, queen as this highly, um, esteemed. [00:05:30] figure on one hand, and queen on the other hand is the derogatory term for a gay man, or gay boy, or whatever. So that's the kind of the nub of the whole film, is this thing of this highly honorific person visiting almost like a goddess or something from another world. But then for the little boy, his own sense of, um, on one hand, identification. with this sort of very [00:06:00] lush visual spectacle because it was just after the coronation and the coronation was this incredibly lush visual spectacle at a time when there really wasn't much highly visual imagery, um, and a little boy taking on that, that, um, the kind of identity of a queen, a little queen, really. Um, and I must say with the, um, um, The boy who played the little queen, many, [00:06:30] many, many years later, I saw him in Oxford Street dressed in leather from foot to toe. And he said to me, how did, why did you, how did you know to choose me for that, for that role? And, and it was a very awkward, potentially awkward situation. And I said, well, really, it was very easy. I just got everyone, all the boys who auditioned to, um, crown themselves. And he was the boy who could actually go into the whole imagination of, [00:07:00] of what it meant to actually crown yourself. And, um, so that's how he got the role. It was pretty simple from my point of view. He could imagine himself into this sort of thing. That's a diversion. Your first film, Foolish Things, was overtly gay. Yes. I think in this film it's a lot subtler in terms of the kind of sexual identification and identity. Can you take us through the [00:07:30] process of how you work out how much emphasis you put on portraying a character's sexual or gender identity? Yes, well of course in this case it's It's tremendously awkward because you're in the whole area of childhood sexuality, which is enormously controversial, and you've got to be really careful, I think. I felt it held me back, as well. Um, [00:08:00] I don't know whether I can say much more than that, really. Um, yeah. This was at a time when, um, this is pre homosexual law reform, and it's also, um, pre, um, HIV AIDS coming into the kind of mainstream consciousness. How hard was it, or how easy, or how hard was it for you to be making queer themed films in the early 80s? Well, I'm quite a pushy person, really, when you get down to it. [00:08:30] I felt really strongly it was my right to look at those sorts of areas and make films in those sorts of areas and write stories in that area. That's my right as a human being. That's my right as a New Zealander. So I was pretty implacable about my right to apply for funding agencies and things like that. And how was getting funding for a queer themed film? Um, not, not bad at all, really. [00:09:00] I think I was, I think they recognised the seriousness of, um, my intent, really. Do you consider your filmmaking activism? Oh, that's an interesting question. When I try to make each film exist on its own artistic terms, I don't think I've ever made a film that was actually activist in, in a sort of an [00:09:30] ideological sense. So you wouldn't consider something say like, um, Jules Dahl? No. Which has got a transgender storyline? Yes. Implicitly. Implicitly. Not explicitly. Um, yes. You know, with Jules Dahl, it was, I think it was 1986. I made a film about, it was a half hour film, and it was looking at a transgender person's life with their [00:10:00] trans best date, friend. It was just a day in the life of two characters. At the time it was a very um, advanced film. Um, I see looking back, really, because I treated the transgender character completely differently. As an ordinary person, I suppose, in a way, with dignity and, and, um, humanity, really. But that was, that was implicit [00:10:30] activism, rather than explicit, because I didn't, it's not like, you know, the character turned to the screen and said, you know, we've got equal rights, give it to us now, kind of thing. Um, no. But actually placing. Someone like that before the nation's eyes is an active, was an active act of it. It was a political act, and as it turned out, it was a very dangerous political act. Television New Zealand refused to screen the film for [00:11:00] really several years because they said it was unacceptable for transgender people to be shown as anything other than figures of fun. And this was the actual official line of television New Zealand at that time. And how did you respond to that? Well, they just held, they held the film back for two years. So we had to really wait for someone to, the internal censor of television, to shift, to go. Back to Little Queen. Yeah. And was that, [00:11:30] um, destined for a television audience? No. Or, it was a film? Yeah. It was shown with other short films. We had a wonderful screening with Jane Campion, Alison McLean, Gregor Nicholas, and Little Queen. It was four short films, four sort of dynamite short films altogether, really. And it's screened all around the place in art galleries and small theatres and things like that. And people at [00:12:00] that stage were very hungry for new images and new voices. And new cinema voices. And of course, you know, Jane Campion, you know, what a great voice, really. So are you thinking, when you're making Our Little Queen, are you thinking of a particular audience? I'm thinking, is it a mainstream audience? Is it a queer audience? A national audience? An international audience? I think all of it. All of them. I think all of them. You make it with the best of intentions that, that, that, that people will be interested [00:12:30] or find something of interest in it. Really. Can we divert here? Um, we're going to divert into something that's not political at all, and that's When, when I was making the film, I had to kind of do actually a lot of research about what, what the past actually looked like, even though I could remember what the past looked like, but I needed to look at what the past looked like. And, uh, so we had this wonderful thing of going to pictorial parades, which were these, uh, tremendously [00:13:00] boosterish, um, uh, serials that showed at the cinema. In the fifties and I think Mike has lined up a pictorial parade for us to actually have a look at just a couple of minutes of a 1950s pictorial parade. I mean, there you can see that tremendously boosterish tone and that [00:13:30] sound element, um, but also the sort of hokeyness of it all, everything's so hokey, everything's so sort of down home and, you know, there are girl guides and, um, brownies lined up all along the roadside and things like that. So when I was putting together Little Queen, I looked a lot at these, um, Really quite wonderful documents, mad documents really, and um, and took a lot of art direction hints from it. Because really in, in 53, 54, it was, New [00:14:00] Zealand, it was a very sort of froutsy sort of era. There wasn't a lot of, there weren't a lot of material goods. people did wear second hand clothes, or they patched clothes. I wanted to try and get that sort of slight sense of, um, of a post war world, where people were still in recovery and starved for some sort of glamour, or an event, you know, like the Queen driving [00:14:30] by. So I actually did get a lot from those, um, Kind of pictorial parades. I love the playfulness in Little Queens. So, on one hand you've got, you know, this queen driving down a suburban street, but it's preceded by a toilet on top of a car. Yeah. Where does that playfulness come from? Um, well I think that's part of that whole crowd dynamic, really. I think crowds are very, very important. double edged in their understanding of what's going, [00:15:00] going on. They are there to see the queen, but they're there to have a, enjoy a spectacle on whatever level it delivers, whether it's a dog pissing on someone's foot or, you know, or anything like that, I think. Yeah. You portray suburbia as quite a drab, completely drained of color existence. Is that your memory? Yes. Yes, [00:15:30] yes, yes. I mean, I see it in color, of course. Um, and I do see it in different ways, but yes. My, my childhood memory of it is, is of a, of a mens airiness, immense. And you've talked in previous interviews about being, um, or feeling constrained as a child. You were Yes. Heavily bullied at school for your Yes. Your voice. Yeah. Um. Dreaming of other places. Yes. Can you talk about some of those constraints and whether they, whether you think, [00:16:00] um, young people now have those same kind of feelings? Right. I can't really answer whether young people still have those feelings. Certainly when I was growing up I was very imaginatively starved, I think. Um, there didn't seem much happening, apart from what you could make up in your own mind out of books. Yes. Or, or films. Films were hugely important to me. Going to the movies every Saturday was hugely important to me as a, as a child, in terms of [00:16:30] imagination. And in fact, those coloured curtains that, that show in Little Queen are from my local bug house, local picture theatre, where the curtains changed colour. Well, to me as a child, that was the most magical thing. I just thought it was the most incredible thing, this incredible saturation of color, and then the blending and changing of colors, to me that was the most absolutely marvelous thing. So, uh, I think too when you're a child and, and, you know, you're [00:17:00] bullied or something like that, I don't, in a funny way you're not, you can sometimes lack the framework, That, that can tell you that you are being bullied in a way, it's just something that happens and you think, well that's how the world is, I think, and in terms of myself I sort of went inwards into an imaginative world where I could create my own freedom and independence, I think, um, it's something I don't know.[00:17:30] What advice would you, if you could see yourself as a child back there now, what advice would you give to yourself? Oh, hmm, that's an interesting one. Um, Well, you know, I was a very determined little sissy. Really. So, even though I was bullied, I was also extremely determined. And I did have a very, very strong imagination. And I just [00:18:00] kept going, really, until, you know, here we are, you know, I made a film, and, and, you know, I've written all these books, so, I seem to have some ability to not submit, really, to that, and to admire and seek to follow the freedom of the imagination, which I think that's It is a symbol for the freedom of all of us as human beings, really.[00:18:30] If I'm, I hope that's not too high of a fallation, but that's what I think. That's what I think. As a child, what films do you remember? Oh, golly. Well, um, Cleopatra was a huge film, which is a terrible film. You know, it was a big costume drama, a very big costume drama. Um, I mean, as children, [00:19:00] we liked the serials. We liked these absolutely crummy 1940s serials where, you know, the, the, the caves collapsed. Would the person get out of the cave, you know, in the next serial? That all seemed terribly real and tremendously exciting, really. So it was all over the place. I didn't like high art films. I wouldn't have known what a high art film was. I just liked films, you know, across the board, I think. Um, yeah. [00:19:30] One of the things I really like about your filmmaking is that you often focus on, um, and linger on small inanimate objects. Oh yes. And I'm wondering, can you, uh, and also things that are left behind, so for instance, the queen on the cake tin and, um, the immortalised dog statue. Yes. Can you talk about how you're emphasising those inanimate objects and why? That's a, you're full of [00:20:00] really difficult questions. I'm sorry. Um, I like looking. I like things. And I think if you like looking and you like things, you do tend to invest emotions and things, emotions into things. I think that's part of it, I think. Um, it also reminds me of one of the last films you've made, which was a film about, um, Jonathan Dennis, who was the founder of, uh, the [00:20:30] New Zealand Film Archive and a friend of Yes. Of both of us, um, called Friendship as the Harbor of Joy from 2004, uh, where you, um, focused a lot on some of the objects in Jonathan's, um, on shelves and rooms. Yes, I was chronicling his. It was one of those really extraordinary things where I'd come down to stay with a friend who had cancer tremendously, very, very badly, and lo and behold, he asked me to chronicle [00:21:00] his death, which was a tremendously difficult and very challenging thing to do, and afterwards I did wonder whether I shouldn't have, I should have said yes but not done it, but anyway I got myself into this situation of responsibility, of chronicling his death. final weeks, couple of weeks. Um, and he lived in this tremendously decorated house of Pacifica, um, full of the most fabulous things and the most incredible colors. [00:21:30] And it was just an absolute, um, bombshell for the eye, in a way. So, the way I represented his presence was through the objects within the house, each one of which he carefully selected. So it seemed a way of, um, representing this person who was on the margins of no longer being there. You're currently editing Hello Darkness. Yes. Um, which is talking about your own [00:22:00] journey, uh, with cancer. Yeah. How does it differ, um, working on Hello Darkness to actually documenting somebody else's journey? Oh, hugely, hugely, really. I, I think because, now I'm talking about myself, I've got a huge, um, I don't have any responsibility except to myself, really, whereas with Jonathan I had this tremendous responsibility to to him, and I felt to a degree hemmed in by that. Whereas, [00:22:30] with myself, my only responsibility with Hello Darkness is to make it as representative as possible of what I seem to be going through. Um, and the responses, I don't know if people know about Hello Darkness, but it was a, when I found out I had cancer and I was in hospital, I started writing about it on Facebook. And started doing this Facebook, essentially a Facebook. Diary every day about what was happening and how I was feeling and things [00:23:00] like that and to my utter amazement all these people Started following me and replying to me and giving me Araha I suppose is what one would say. It was really extraordinary Um, so I was suddenly in this position of, of, of writing this document with a whole lot of other people replying and talking to me about it. So now I'm in this situation [00:23:30] of making it, making it into a book. Um, so my only responsibility really is to make the book as true to itself really, I think. How have you found documenting it? Um, well, I'm living it, so it's sort of like, well, so what? I suppose. I mean, you know what I mean. It's sort of like, well, it gives me something to do. Um, people reply to me all the [00:24:00] time. It's wonderful. Um, it's not negative. It's about life. It's about living. Um, so to me, it's a positive, a positive thing. It's not a sort of a, it's not an, it's not a miserabilist thing. At all, and I've often talked in the um, postings about this strange feeling of, of um, a feeling of luck that I have, which seems so perverse to think that you could have cancer, but [00:24:30] feel somehow you're lucky, but I think I'm lucky because I'm alive, it's just a very basic thing. I'm not dead, I'm alive, so I feel very, very lucky. So, that animates the Hello darkness We've got a few minutes for questions from the floor, so if you want to ask a question We've got a few minutes, and there is one question. I have to ask right [00:25:00] As the first one and it's in written form from chief curator Robert Leonard Peter, how does it feel to go from being a preschooler in the early 1950s, seeing the Queen go by when she was glamorous, still in her 20s, to being made a member of the New Zealand Order of Merit by the self same, albeit infinitely older and sterner Queen? Yes, that's a funny one. Um, uh, well it's absolutely fine. You know, I actually met the Queen [00:25:30] and talked to her about making this film. It was the most extraordinary thing. Um, it was at one of the Royal Garden Parties when she was touring New Zealand and somehow I ended up being selected and standing in this line with the All Blacks and then there was me and Front Lawn. People. So I met the Queen and I said, well, I made this film about you. And, um, she said, oh, you look much too young. And I think she thought as a three year old I was running around with a camera or something. But she had a, it was actually very charming. She'd been to the [00:26:00] races and I would say had a good wallop of champagne. And she was in a very good mood. Because she wasn't doing the usual rather harsh things that she's doing all the time. So she seemed a rather jolly person. And I thought, oh, well, good. That's nice. So, you know, that's my take on it. And has, has she seen it? I don't know. No, I don't know. I should have really sent it off to, um, Buckingham Palace, shouldn't I? I don't think she likes the arts. Yeah. Thank you. [00:26:30] Hey, thank you so much for being a wonderful audience and sitting through my really rather weird film. Thank you, Peter. It's been amazing. I mean, I mean, thank you for your films and your books and being you, I mean, you are a role model for a lot of people and it's just been really wonderful to spend some time with you and talk about your work. Oh, thank you, Gary. Thank you.

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TITLE: Barry Taylor profile
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VOICES: Barry Taylor
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; ANZAC Day; AZT; Alfies 2; Anti Springbok tour protest (1981); Anti-Apartheid Movement; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Bamboo Bar; Barry Taylor; Bill Logan; Cathedral Square (Christchurch); Catholic Mass; Catholicism; Christchurch; Christchurch Arts Centre; Christian youth group; Christianity; Dunedin longitudinal study; Elton John; Eric Rofes; Evergreen Coffee House; Fran Wilde; GAY University Students Association (University of Canterbury); Gay BC (Wellington Access Radio); Gay Liberation Christchurch; Gay Liberation Front Christchurch; Gay Teachers Union; HIV / AIDS; Hero (Auckland); Hero dance party; Heterosexuals Unafraid of Gays (HUG); Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Human Rights Act (1993); I thought people like that killed themselves : Lesbians, gay men, and suicide (book); Jenny Brash; Kevin Hague; Leigh Rampton; Lesbian and Gay Dances (Wellington); Lesbian and Gay Fair; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Margaret Sparrow; Maurice Halder; Michael Baker; MindOUT LGBTI Mental Health and Suicide Prevention Project (Australia); Ministry of Youth Affairs; National Council of Churches; National Council on AIDS; National Youth Council of New Zealand; National Youth Health Conference (1990); New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand Association for Adolescent Health and Development; Newtown School; Oaks Complex; Ottawa Charter for Health Promotion (1986); Out (magazine); OutTakes: A Reel Queer Film Festival; Paekākāriki; Parliament buildings; Paul Kinder; Peter Cuthbert; Peter Joyce; Phil Parkinson; Pink Triangle (magazine); Prue Kelly; Public Service Association (PSA); Rainbow Youth; Ready to Roll (tv); Rex Halliday; Shane Town; Sharon Crosbie; Sue Bagshaw; Sydney Mardi Gras; Timaru; University of Canterbury; Victoria Club; Wellington; Wellington High School; Winston Churchill Memorial Trust Fellowship; Youthline; anti-COVID 19 vaccination; anxiety; badges; bear; belonging; bullying; cancer; coming out; criminalisation; discrimination; elder issues; elders; faggot; freedom; funeral; gay catholic group; gay liberation movement; gender studies; hairdressing; homosexual law reform; hypervigilance; identity documents; joyfulness; land rights; lesbian; lobbying; loneliness; mental health; movement building; pride; public toilet; rainbow crossing; rejection; right of citizenship; ritual; safe space; saunas; self stigma; self-acceptance; social justice; social media; suicide; suicide prevention; television; trans; transgender; trauma; youth; youth group
DATE: 20 April 2024
YEAR: 2024
LOCATION: Paekākāriki, Paekākāriki, Kapiti Coast District
CONTEXT: Barry Taylor talks about his early years, the establishment of the first rainbow youth support groups in New Zealand in the late 1980s, and his work in the areas of social justice and suicide prevention.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: July 2024
TEXT: I grew up in Timaru in the South Island, um, and the only way people met each other was through public toilets, as a way of socialising. I remember meeting someone who I knew was gay and reading a copy of Out and Pink Triangle and it was just I would have been about 16, 17. So for people in Timaru, like, there [00:00:30] were no places to meet. Some would escape up to Christchurch. And then you started to hear of things like saunas. And suddenly there was a different world. So what kind of year are we talking? We're talking, uh, 1977, 78. Um, and then going to Christchurch, uh, in 81, was the university group that, you know, um, what was it? Gay, not Gus, oh yeah, [00:01:00] Gay University Students Group at Canterbury. Um, and that was like a, um, A coming out of a coming out sort of process. A selective one. There was, there was a degree of clandestine, but there were the start of some things happening, like at the art centre was the coffee, uh, you know lounge that was set up. Um, so you There was [00:01:30] hints of, of a world being active, um, but I remember, uh, in, this would have been, what, 1984, 85, going on the first pro march for, uh, homosexual law reform out of Christchurch. Now, I had done the tour marches, I'd been on so many marches, and had marched so many times out of Cathedral Square. But it hit me, [00:02:00] as I was coming out, there was a degree of vulnerability. It was like, I'm marching for myself. Uh, and that was a really kind of, um, almost quite transformational and quite empowering, yet also recognizing, you know, would there be violence, you know, we'd seen that on the tour, would people, if you put on a badge, uh, and so, um, but I, but [00:02:30] I, I sensed in that time, just gradually in my life, um, Becoming more familiar with having, meeting people, and in non sexual ways, but meeting people. Just talking, as I would talk in other groups, uh, and having a sense of, it's okay, and it's something that I can be, uh, but still uncertain. [00:03:00] Can I take you back to Timaru and I'm guessing the late 60s? Yeah. How did you, how did you kind of discover your, your, your kind of sexuality? How, how did you know? It was 70s, I was only born in the 60s, don't age me too much. Um, well, it was, it was silly little things like watching, uh, what was that music program at 6 o'clock? And There were hints of people, uh, [00:03:30] you know, there was male bodies and flesh, and, and remember not just listening to it, but being, you know, aroused by it. Um, and so for me then it was, at one level there wasn't, uh, a quandary, but at another level it was you can't tell anyone or discuss that. Um, and But yes, so, as I said, uh, it's, for some people, it was [00:04:00] through, and for myself even, it was through initiation of sexual activity. Uh, at a reasonably young age, um, not under age, but a reasonable age, and so therefore, um, but then there were the questions of, well, what is? What do you do? And so it was often with older men. And so that your ability to have, um, control of those, it [00:04:30] was very much directed by what they wanted. Uh, and, but yeah, so, I thought it was always really interesting. How do you, how did I learn to be a young gay man? And I don't think I did. It took me quite a few years to, to develop a healthy model or concept of what that would be, look like. Yeah. Around that time, so we're talking, same with Mid 70s, I mean, this is the time of gay [00:05:00] liberation starting, a whole kind of groundswell of kind of queer energy. How did that kind of manifest in somewhere say like Timaru? Well, you never got it. You never saw it. Uh, like you may have seen something on the news, uh, but no one talked about it. It was just an item, uh, and it was over there. So, I think, yes, it, it, it was kind of like your don't ask, don't tell [00:05:30] kind of philosophy. Um, so, what you did start to get were the kind of, you know, the gossip that, you know, Elton John was bisexual or such. So you started to hear of pop stars and people, uh, who were, and you thought, oh, that's interesting. But you didn't really know anyone. In this, like, you knew people, but you didn't know people. And did that change when you went to Christchurch? [00:06:00] Yes, yeah. So, as I said, that's where I started, to meet other people, and non sexual, and, you know, just talking to people, and it being okay. Um, because the other thing, I think I need to understand is I came up for a very strong Catholic background and very involved in the Catholic student movement. And so I had these kind of two lives at one space. Um, and that took, took, took about 84, 85 [00:06:30] before I could really integrate that in an out way. But that was out of, um, my kind of social justice work, you know, um, looking at what does it mean, what was injustice. So I, from a very, from, from the sort of early, uh, 80s going to Christchurch, I was, I suppose military, I was kind of, you know, activated and social action was quite strong. So, [00:07:00] um, I would always like to, we would always host once a year the gay catholic group and we'd always host them for a mass, which was always an interesting time because there were those who were on either side, but there were those in the middle and it's like, you know, Do I acknowledge you? Do I not acknowledge you? Oh, how do you know him? Sort of. But it was, that, to me, that was a great experience. Um, that's why for me, like, um, [00:07:30] Things like the rainbow, uh, sort of crossings and the cancelling of that and the like, uh, are really important statements, you know, people constantly are always looking for clues, is, am I welcome here? Is it safe here? Do we, do we not tolerate you, but we, we welcome you into our community. You belong here. Um, and I think that's still, uh, a lot for a lot of young [00:08:00] people, uh, in this space. Did you have a question? Coming out or were you just you I was I well I didn't I sort of had it coming out at a couple of times There's one story though. It was like don't tell your father Sort of thing And you may remember after the law reform Like there was the setting up in Of the little coffee club in Vivian Street, you know, and so we had our [00:08:30] first gay little youth group there. And there was a Wednesday night documentary series and they were doing one on Vivian Street. And the first part was across the road with these pole dancers and anyway it was the break and my mother said to my father, imagine your mother Your parents seeing you on this and then the next phase what they'd come and filmed us Our little kind of gay youth group in the coffee lounge and and my mother looked [00:09:00] at dad He said I've always known but it was like that kind of space It was interesting But yes, it was kind of like It was spoken, but not spoken. Yeah. Yeah. And that first march for homosexual law reform in 84. Yeah. What drew you to that? Why did you want to be in that? Well, once again, because I had that very strong kind of social justice and inequality, it was like, [00:09:30] This is important. Uh, we had discussed it. Um, you know, there was, the time was right that we had to do something, uh, we had to, um, claim our space if, and for me it was like, well, if we had done it, like for against the tour, we had done it around. sort of Māori land rights and that. This was an important kind of statement. And so, um, there was no question, [00:10:00] uh, and so was involved locally, uh, but didn't really get involved until I came to Wellington in 86. Yeah. On that march in Christchurch, how, how big was that? It was quite big. Like it was a, a good sized march. Uh, I was, and everyone was there. Um, 'cause of course you had the hug people coming out as well, but I was surprised about the numbers. [00:10:30] Like you certainly wouldn't feel like it was a small march. Um, and there was a strong energy, but through all that time. Uh, there was, it was a joyful energy, there, it was, it was always celebratory, it was always, there was a dignity to it, like, we would just joke back to people who've called out names. Yeah, it was, it was, yeah, there was like a, a joy of being who we were. throughout [00:11:00] that time. Uh, and recognizing it was going to be a hard struggle. Um, you know, some of those debates that day on television were vicious. Um, but, uh, I, I remember a sense of camaraderie on that march. Was there much pushback from the people observing the march? There was some, but most people with marches just would look at it or toot and, you know, because they're either annoyed or support. [00:11:30] Um, but as it got more closer to the time, I found that there was more, Well, there was organisation, mainly of Christian groups, um, but also there was some, like some of the Friday night, being at the pub for a long time, sort of ones coming onto the street. Uh, but once again, I think we, we reacted With a sense of dignity like [00:12:00] we, uh, we just always were kind of like looking forward. Um, uh, and, and I think it, it, it, In a way, we just didn't allow those bullies. Almost, it was like the bullies that we experienced when we were at school and called faggots and that kind of thing. But we just decided, talking to men afterwards, we just decided we weren't going to be bullied anymore. Where do [00:12:30] you think that Can you tell us where that switch in mindset comes from in terms of saying, well actually we're just not going to accept this anymore? I think it came from, you know, more and more people meeting each other and just saying we're not that. I often talk about in my work around suicide and um, you know, The queer community, uh, it's often about that self stigma, you know, I am, which I've been taught to hate or fear, uh, [00:13:00] and so coming out is reframing of that. And I just think the more and more the people who came out, people who were strong and already worked through things, um, that we saw. Another way of being. And it was full of pride. It was. I think that word pride really was an important word during that time. The debate around homosexual law reform lasted for months and months. I [00:13:30] mean, I think it was about 16 months it went on. Did it ever feel that it was a It was inevitable, it was always going to pass, or were there times where you thought, Oh, my goodness. No, we didn't know. Uh, and, um, you know, there was, uh, it was like we were writing letters all the time. It was a real bombardment. Um, but you also had to remember that, like, we didn't really have Too much national organizing. It wasn't like there was an AIDS [00:14:00] foundation that was the backbone. So a lot of organizing, but we were connected and so it was real strong local lobbying of different people. Uh, but, We really didn't know. And of course there was the threats coming through to Fran Wild and things like that. Um, and of course the splitting of the bill, uh, that made a difference. And, and while people didn't like that, we kind of understood it. [00:14:30] Um, but yes, um, we never knew. And it was, it was like I hope it passes. We've done our best. Uh, but we weren't. Like, this is in our hand at all, yeah. And even if it hadn't passed, I mean, I'm guessing you wouldn't go back into the closet. No. Well, that's the thing. I think the issue, of course, with decriminalization was by [00:15:00] the time it arrived, by the time we had the actual passing, we were seeing the first cases of HIV. Um, and very soon after my arrival in Wellington, uh, I was appointed to the National Council of Aids. But it was also 1986, so we had the passing of the legislation, but also this amazingly revolutionary document called the Ottawa Charter, [00:15:30] and, and, and it was like, you know, it was What that was all about was community action, reorientating services, making sure there wasn't discrimination. Um, and so I think, uh, even if we hadn't, we would have got organized. We would have had to. And so the argument on the National Council of AIDS was around decriminalization. If we hadn't passed, our [00:16:00] focus would have been around decriminalization. Can you recall the first time you heard about HIV or AIDS? Uh, I remember it would have been around 84, because you were reading the magazines and such Um, and there was a little sense of, well, I hope it doesn't come here. Um, But then I remember the first cases [00:16:30] when it was announced someone had come back, um, and I had just arrived in Wellington, so I didn't really know the networks, but, you know, there was that start of once again of We have to get organized, you know, and, uh, like I just have admiration for people like Phil Parkinson and that who, who was this word semantic kind of person that would drive us [00:17:00] crazy sometimes on the council, hey, but by God, he knew his stuff. Uh, and, and, you know, we had that. You know, the action of the leaders like Bill Logan and such, who knew how we needed to go the next step. But people were scared. Well, we didn't really talk about it, we just sort of, I don't know, won't it be happening here sort of thing. Can you describe that shift from, your shift from Christchurch to [00:17:30] Wellington and your kind of perceptions of the different kind of communities? Yeah. Well, I. Well, I. I arrived in June, so it was just before, in fact, it was, it was in the second week of me arriving, I was still living, staying with my sister, uh, and remember, seeing on the news that I was going to pass, and rushing down in my sister's car to Parliament, and sort of not, but going up into the, um, [00:18:00] upstairs, the gallery, and, and just passing, and, but it was like, I was going, woo, but. I didn't know what it was like. I wish I had been in Christchurch. And of course you didn't have phones to text or anything. But I just remember the excitement of that moment. Um, and remembering, uh, almost like with tears in my eyes, [00:18:30] um, what that meant suddenly. Although I'd never felt it. I said, Oh my God, I'm no longer a criminal. Uh, and that was It was very kind of, you didn't realise how much that kind of unspoken social conditioning, uh, had on people. Uh, and so just that sense of freedom was very, very powerful. Um, so coming into Wellington, [00:19:00] um, I was kind of amazed, like the first place was, was Alfie's and going there. But then, you know, there was the bar. Bambooba and suddenly, uh, but it wasn't, it took a while until I started to meet people and I think it was when I started to get involved in sort of local action sort of stuff and just being [00:19:30] involved with people that people said, Oh, and they said, Oh, you knew, I've been here for a while, but yeah, it took a while for people for, for me to get it, but it was through once again, that kind of community volunteerism that started the process. Uh, and I remember, you know, contacting, you know, The first sort of, uh, well near to the start of the AIDS Foundation up in [00:20:00] Main Street going along and, uh, offering to say, you know, do training. These are my areas. Uh, so helping to set up the support group, uh, and also our education groups. So, uh, and that when it started to happen and then through. My work, I was working for the National Youth Council, hitting up the first national response to youth suicide in this country. Um, and it was through that, the [00:20:30] letter came for a nominee to go on the National Council of AIDS. Uh, and that was a great opener for, for starting to become really involved. Uh, and, You know, that's where I found this space. Uh, so for instance, uh, through that met like people like Paul Kinder, uh, and we sat down over two nights and wrote our first report as part of the thing on gay and lesbian youth suicide and mental health [00:21:00] in New Zealand. Now, I've still got a copy, but it was a, but basically we just took all that we knew what was going on. Uh, and I, it was very instrumental, like people started to quote from it. Um, so that's where I started to see the role of policy. And was that one of the first times where, um, people specifically were looking at queer communities in terms of health? Yeah, well, as I said, [00:21:30] this was the Ottawa Charter. Um, and so we had, uh, there was this, these two parallel process going along. So there was the National Council of AIDS work, which was at that big policy. Uh, but there was the kind of the whole lot of the, uh, the real formation of the AIDS Council, uh, and moving from sort of local groups to a more national. I remember going to so many meetings in Auckland and, you know, [00:22:00] working through that. Um, but what we saw was, as I kept saying, was this excitement. Suddenly there was the fair day. The university dancers that had been there were Suddenly much more. There was a real excitement in Wellington. Uh, people like, you know, Sunday Night Roast at the Victoria Club, you know. Um, just a sense that there were [00:22:30] things to do. Uh, I thought you saw a lot more people out. Uh, and like a lot of people would go to the, to the, um, The dance, but didn't, weren't there for dance, but they, there was a nice area and you could just sit there and chat away. And that was, I think, were those were the experiences. Um, and that's when, uh, through that report, uh, I started to think about how we can work [00:23:00] around our youth and that's where we, I suppose, the journey of sort of setting up gay youth groups in New Zealand. So, yeah. We'll come to that in just a minute, but I'm interested in, um, The moment after homosexual law reform, do you think things changed kind of immediately? Were people having more, as you say, were they more kind of out and more energy and more socialising? Or did things take a [00:23:30] while to, or did things just carry on as normal? I think It wasn't like I could say one day it was like this and the next day, but I think within a kind of a year to a year and a half, there was a cumulative effect. So things were, you know, there was like Shane Town's work around, you know, the gay teachers group and just suddenly you were hearing about things that you wouldn't have heard about before.[00:24:00] Uh, and of course, you know, a lot of it was around bars, but, oh, did you, have you met this person who's doing this? Um, but no, I just think, uh, not knowing Wellington, uh, I, I saw a greater variety of actions happening, not straight away, but sort of cumulatively, uh, in a whole wide range of different ways that, um, Yeah, it was kind of [00:24:30] like, that's why I'm always a great believer of movement building. Because once you get a movement going, people get caught up in it, and I think that's what happened in Wellington. Can you tell me a wee bit more about the, your work on the National Council of AIDS? Yes. So I was the youth representative, although I was getting a bit old by then, but what really, I suppose, what we had was, um, A well organized [00:25:00] caucus, you know, so it was almost like we were ready for whatever debate was happening that time, um, and, but, it was interesting, it was, it was almost like Um, for a range of people, you know, Sharon Crosby, there was the Bishop from, Anglican Bishop from Waiapu, there was [00:25:30] Arahu Akupu from the Māori Women's Welfare, all these people who'd been invited on but didn't really know what, but, um, that experience of being educated, uh, and. informed and seeing the degree of injustice, like it wasn't, um, we had like, uh, the biomedical discussions through Richard Meats and, you know, in terms of [00:26:00] the, the virus, uh, but, and of course we were coming from a community action model. Uh, and, and so by the end, The report, that first report that we wrote, uh, it truly was, it wasn't like there was a, a dissenting voice. We had carried the group to a process of actually, uh, writing, you know, writing the report. But as with anything like that. Reports of [00:26:30] reports that they don't really impact daily lives. Um, I don't think Um, it was like no one would know that we had a council sort of thing But it did shape Oh, hello there Sorry No, you don't have to be sorry you get down Sorry There you go Okay You can wait. Okay Um Yeah, [00:27:00] but I think that parallel process, um, of a community and public policy being shaped, um, did influence, but I think the real influencer was the action. Then we started to go for, for part two for the, um, the anti discrimination. That's where I think we started to get real traction in our community. And, [00:27:30] you know, the foundation of pointed Kevin Hay and like just the strategy, the thinking. around that. I think that's where we really got galvanized as a community. And we start, by the time we're in that, we had started to see local people being infected. And that was a space where people stepped up to the markets. It's, you know, it's that that [00:28:00] higher self came out and there was that call to action. Um, but once again, it was at that local level, wasn't at that sort of public policy level. Because it wasn't too many years after, uh, what was about 87, 88, where, where people started dying, um, uh, locally. And I mean, what kind of, I mean, there were so many, what, what kind of impact did [00:28:30] that have on you? It's kind of like, because you're involved, you don't realise it was happening. Uh, and because of my work, uh, there was this almost like a professionalism catching off of it. Uh, but those, those funerals, You know, those gatherings of people, uh, [00:29:00] they were powerful, uh, there was, there was a somberness that, that it was, this was real, uh, and that people that had been high profile, I'll say for instance. I can't remember his name, it was Daniel's partner who was on the National Council, [00:29:30] who then died. Peter Cuthbert? Yeah, that's right, Peter. You know, those kind of times, um, I think for a lot of people, uh, People's sort of, kind of grieving. It was almost like we had that sort of gay thing. It was like a social event afterwards everyone was chatting. But there, you could tell there was a heaviness. Um, and that's why I think, you know, when we started to [00:30:00] have those communal memorials. Uh, and people came, uh, they were important, they were incredibly important, they were often the way where people could actually, uh, be vulnerable for a while and to remember. To be somber almost. So much happened in say that 5 to 10 years after law reform. [00:30:30] When you think of HIV AIDS coming onto the scene and as you say, heading towards the Human Rights Act where it was all about taking away the Making it illegal to discriminate against rainbow people. And is this the point where you start thinking about, say, gay youth groups? Well, it sort of came out more 89, 1990. Um, and [00:31:00] It was this realisation that people, we were starting to talk about it because there was the rise of suicide. Um, but there was a kickback like, um, One of the controversies around that time was when Professor Joyce, uh, in a, I think it was a North and South article, uh, accused me of using suicide to promote homosexuality [00:31:30] and that there was no evidence that, in fact, sexuality was a contributor. Um, so there was like really, um, that, uh, what I, the fortunate thing for me was, is at the end of the National Youth Suicide Prevention Project, uh, we had been very fortunate, Phil Goff was the Minister of Youth Affairs, and so he had, because he didn't have a ministry at the time, he would come to anything [00:32:00] that we, he would launch all our events and that, he was great. And so. We had a meeting in his office where we presented the final report, um, and he kind of said to me, Oh, what are you doing now? And I said, I'm joining your other portfolio. He was the Minister of Employment. I said, I'm going to be unemployed. Anyway, the next day I get a phone call from Rhea Earp, uh, from the establishment unit asking me to come on board. And the minister said, [00:32:30] request was for me to implement the report recommendations. So I was in internal affairs setting up the ministry and was there for the first three, four years of the ministry. So I suddenly was in a position where youth was a focus and could influence that public policy. Um, and it, it was almost like there were all these things coming together, uh, because there was a group of us, um, [00:33:00] uh, Phil Silver from the Otago multi, you know, the longitudinal study. Um, uh, there were a Jenny Brash, who was the mayor of Porro. Anyway, we at Bushy Park set up the New Zealand Association of Adolescent Health. So there was this kind of meeting of all these different kind of issues. And we had our first national youth health conference out at the police college in 1990.[00:33:30] Um, I remember it because the next, after the conference, I flew out for my Winston Churchill fellowship. But it was this kind of exciting, magical time. And we had people like Dame Margaret Sparrow and Dame Sue Bagshaw. I said, I've got all these dames around me now. But, but what we had was a time and that there was a recognition that, you know, gay youth were to be a focus. Uh, so we were, Talking about setting up youth health [00:34:00] centers, you know, you know, what, how do we improve youth mental health? Uh, and so in the community And so suddenly there was just these little groups setting up. Uh, there was the group in Christchurch Uh, there was a group in Group in Nelson, there was one in Dunedin. So we were suddenly hearing about that. So I had this idea one night, as I often did, I said, let's have a national conference. [00:34:30] I had started when, for the job with the National Youth Council, I was with the National Council of Churches, the National Youth Secretary, and I organized then a gays in the church. We had about 15 people went to Otaki Falls and we had about 15 young gay men, young gays in the church. So I'd started that kind of work and so I said, let's have a national youth conference. Um, and anyway, um, there was Judah Bone [00:35:00] and, uh, Alistair France and we kind of were the backbone and said, okay, we're gonna do this. So. Because I'd organized conferences before, I was like, oh well, bit formulaic. Uh, so we booked the Wellington High School. Uh, for the venue. Uh, anyway, the word got out that we were going to have it, uh, and our booking got cancelled by the principal, who was a lesbian. So, but anyway, [00:35:30] so suddenly there was a backlash. So, this was just before the, uh, So, what year was this? This was 1989, 90, I can't remember, I should check it again, but yes, so that was a very Um, yeah, it was an interesting time. So anyway, we managed, we rang up and got Newtown School. And, once again, this is all before, you [00:36:00] know, internet or anything like this. And this kind of word got out, uh, and, and the Aucklanders who were saying he had organized, and all these people just turned up. And I remember on the Thursday night, you know, watching all these people sort of timidly coming into the big hall, um, and I thought, well, we'll do a few workshops and we'll do that, uh, and, and not appreciating just how transformational, uh, and I still [00:36:30] have some people who, uh, you know, peers say how powerful that weekend was, so, uh. And that's what we, once again, it was that movement building, you know. It was kind of like, once you say this is okay, uh, we can do this, and you start to see it happening. You can't stop it, uh, uh, and that's, uh, you know, that's where [00:37:00] I think was exciting. I remember having done some work with Rex Halliday, and he had brought over Eric Rose, who was from the, uh, Los Angeles Gay and Lesbian Community Center. He had written a little book. called I Thought People Like That Killed Themselves, which was kind of like a very preliminary overview of suicide. So he had come to New Zealand, and so we had some discussions about what worked, what do we [00:37:30] need to do. And so, for instance, out of that, one Saturday afternoon in an AUT lecture theatre, about 50 people came, and it was decided that we would set up. A gay and lesbian youth group in Auckland, so Rainbow Youth, started that day, uh, and you know, it was the power of people working together, saying, it's going to happen, we're going to do this. [00:38:00] Was it or wouldn't it be nice, or, it was, there was action, uh, and that's what I think was so exciting at that time. Do you think those things would have happened if If homosexual law reform hadn't happened in 85, 86, would the momentum have already been there? Um, no. Well, I think it would have been much, much harder. Um, we would now, because the, [00:38:30] I think people would not have galvanized as much. I think that we had a rallying cry of the legislation, which, where relationships got formed, people started to meet each other, which allowed other things to happen. And that's, for me, that's what movement building does. It brings people into something that's got energy. Whereas, it was, I think, if [00:39:00] not, we may have been, we would have progressed, but we may have still had a little coffee shop in Christchurch, which some people sort of popped their head into. But drove past many times, but never went in sort of thing. So no, I think if we didn't have that, and then the anti discrimination, once again, we had something that said, um, it's not only that we're not criminals. But we're okay. We have a [00:39:30] right to be here. Um, you know, it's that Ture Ngawaiwa, that notion of legitimacy, all the, you know, the key instruments that we use to talk about a mental well being, sense that I have the right to be here, as I say, the right to be and the right to breathe, to take up space. I have something to contribute. I have something to be. Like, we wouldn't have got some of the work that happened in the education, [00:40:00] not only with Shane, but, you know, people like Morris Holder at Wellington High School, you know, setting up a little group there. All the work done by, you know, I knew her, forget her name, from Napier teacher, did amazing work, did her masters on, and, and we just had all this, it was like the critical mass, uh, started to happen, uh, and, and we thought, you know, We [00:40:30] couldn't stop. It was just things, it was like that kind of notion of magical thinking. Things happened. I'm interested to go back a wee bit when you were talking about the rise in suicide statistics. Yeah. I mean, was that happening, were you seeing that? Yes. So, well, what we had had, I used to always argue that, uh, for our communities, we had always been funeral growers. It wasn't [00:41:00] just the HIV. In the past it had been suicide, but no one ever talked about it. Um, So what we saw was a phenomenon was in Generation X, this group of young people started to kill themselves much more. Now part of the problem was that the way that we did research was that was around, because you can't ask the person because they're dead, so it was around interviews. Now if you had [00:41:30] killed yourself because you didn't want anyone to know that you were, of course your family's not going to say, or if there was shame because they had come out and been kicked out of home or whatever, that of course the family wouldn't divulge that in an interview with a researcher. So of course we didn't have the data, we knew it was there, But we couldn't, like, quantify it. Um, and that's [00:42:00] why, um, there's sort of a sense of karma is that, uh, Professor Joyce, who did the attack on me, his assistant was now Associate Professor Annette Beautré, uh, and it was her, Then partner husbands research in the Christchurch Longitudinal Study that identified sexuality as a contributor to suicide. So I always, always used to take a bit of a joy in this, anyway, but yes. [00:42:30] But no, we didn't know, uh, but we did have suicides, like, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, There was a friend I knew quite well, you know, and that just decimated, I remember it, we were, we lived in Auckland and you know how some flats were like a drop in centre and I remember I'd driven up from Wellington almost overnight and I walked into this lounge and here was this [00:43:00] room full of young gay men just I, you know, they were, nothing was happening. Everyone was just in this shock. Uh, and this was a group that over the next three days gradually came together, but I'll never forget that death. I'll never forget what happened in that group. Um, [00:43:30] and, and we, we were hearing that. so much. Because suicide was being talked about more, we started to hear about them more. Um, and, in a way, that was the rationale about why we needed to do something about this. Uh, but, people, young people, you know, were scared, were, not just around the virus, um, um, They [00:44:00] wanted the reassurance that they were okay, uh, that there was something better. Uh, and this was way before that kind of movement in, in America about, you know, it will get better. Uh, people, you know, a lot of young people, uh, were excited. But also unsure, [00:44:30] I think. Um, and that's for me, you know, When we look at, you know, suicide within our community today, at some level it actually hasn't changed all that much. So the question is, we've got lots more support groups and change, but what's happening at that real fundamentals sense where people are getting still messaging that I'm maybe not okay, I'm different. Uh, so I still think [00:45:00] we've got work to do. Uh. And it, it's about being vigilant about, uh, cancelling of, of rainbow, uh, this whole debate around trans and the vitriol thing is, we need to be calling that out. We need to be speaking about that. We need to, um, almost like claim that space again of the [00:45:30] people's right to be, that right of citizenship. You're not a freak. You're not, you're not what you were taught to hate or fear. I think one of the things you mentioned earlier as well about, um, And it can be so subtle, is that when you walk into a space you, um, very quickly identify whether this is a safe space or not. It's whether it's in somebody's language or whether it's in a [00:46:00] rainbow crossing or whatever. And I think that we actually carry that. Uh, one of the projects that I did overseas, of course, was Mined Out. Which was, uh, the first national response to gay and lesbian suicide in Australia. Uh, and one of the projects I'm really proud of was, is I got together a whole lot of key practitioners and we locked ourselves away and I invited Marnie over and we went up [00:46:30] to the Blue Mountains and for three days we just brainstormed about what was our practice wisdom, what do we know works to, to assist people to well being. Magical time. Anyway, um, they're currently reviewing that document, which I'm very excited about. But what I think was really critical in all the themes was that people, uh, [00:47:00] needed To feel safe, but the problem is those skills that we had to have coming out, and you know, that almost traumatization, that flight, are we safe, is Because of, you know, that danger, we're constantly having to check it out. And that can be a real problem for us. And what we were talking about in that space was the [00:47:30] difference between people, um, the skills that we may have had to survive, we should not need to have when we are older. Like, we should, we should, that integration, but we, so we may be really healthy and integrated, but there is a degree of still a threat. Like, when I came back, who's a safe GP, where do you go, all those things are part of people's sort of kind of constant [00:48:00] space, like sometimes do I disclose my sexuality in a workshop or not. Um. Still, you have to, you've got to judge it, yeah. And those things, I mean, as we both are kind of aging, I mean, those things never actually leave you, do they? I mean, every single day you're making the choice. Or you're hyper vigilant about who's around you, what space you're in. Yeah, and it's because of that almost hard [00:48:30] wiring. It's a bit like You know, I see lots of young people, you know, holding hands now, same sex people. And there's a part of me that goes, oh, that's wonderful. But there's an old part of me, oh, be careful, you know. And, and, and so for us, that's not their story. That's not their experience. But for us, it's dual. It's almost like it's hardwired into us because we did get threat, uh, and that's why I often call about, [00:49:00] it was the traumatization that happened in our journey to integration, what we had to go through, uh, and sadly, I would say that for some, that's still the experience and that's why we're still seeing experiences of suicide, particularly in our young people. But the, the other one I just want to say is, while we get obsessed about coming out, and that's important, uh, suicide, [00:49:30] uh, in the, in the rainbow community goes across the lifespan. So you get now older gay men. The issue that we have is loneliness and, and so we've, we've almost like we've stopped all our community development activities, uh, which I think have been really important. Uh, and so I think there's a whole lot of work we need to do around older LGBT people, uh, [00:50:00] and how we value them in our community, uh, but also how we ensure that they don't become isolated. You, you would have been I mean, I'm just thinking about the mid eighties, early nineties. You would have been in an incredibly privileged position to not only see the youth coming through and seeing that actually, you know, things were changing, but you would have also been quite aware of the older generations and how they [00:50:30] were feeling. And I'm wondering, can you, can you think back to some of the, maybe the older people that you would have known in the mid eighties and how. Uh, well, I think what we had was, of course, it was sort of involved with your kind of community activists. Uh, and, you know, and, uh, As we saw, like it was the, you know, the trans who led the actual, the riot. It really was lesbians in this country [00:51:00] whose analysis and that, um, so for instance, you started seeing gender studies courses and that, uh, uh, you know, debate and discussion. Uh, what I thought I saw was. Over time, were you, first of all, was the engagement with leaders, but I think the things like Fair Day and also, well, it was, they were intergenerational events, but we, [00:51:30] people were involved at a whole lot of levels. Um, and I thought, you know, you know, We started to see, uh, older people telling their stories. Um, we started to, you know, through things like Pink, uh, what was it? Pink Triangle and, you know, publication like that. We saw, uh, You know, a whole lot of people being involved. The Saturday morning radio program. You know, all [00:52:00] those things. Um, People from a wide range of our community started to tell their story. Started to be part of our history. Um, and that's why I'm sort of, Not concerned, but I think it's really important that this generation know the whakapapa of, of, of what, to, to where, where we have come today. That we don't forget those stories. That we honour [00:52:30] a whole generation. So, you know, I remember talking to people because of my work. And they would tell about, like, stories in the 50s and 60s, and going to funerals, or, um, and, or the stories of rejection. And, and so what I have seen in my work, you know, older people telling about what it was like to be kicked out of home in the 70s. And [00:53:00] never had reconciliation. And you know, you look at them and they're strong people, but you know, you can hear that, that woundedness of that rejection. And it was that resiliency despite of, rather because of. But I think, that's why I love projects like this. The more we collect our stories, the more. Like for [00:53:30] me, uh, once again it's, it's permission giving. It was like, you know, the film festivals. And, you know, I remember the one of the, all these old people coming out in their 70s. But this whole, you know, what was it? Where did we have it? The big theatre. But this theatre being so enwrapped with this story and the excitement of stories like that. Uh, I think were really, really important. I have to say, those [00:54:00] outtakes film festivals were amazing, because I think a lot of them happened in the Paramount Theatre in Wellington, but I remember going there for the first time and just being in an audience of, I would say, majority queer people, and to be surrounded by a community. That's right. Amazing. Absolutely. Absolutely. Uh, and, and that's the important. I think that was the feeling I had. on that march. It's, it's when you're part [00:54:30] of a You're not, you're not different. You're not alone. All those experiences. Um, I remember for years, you know, I was president of the beer club in Sydney. And every year, of course, we had to organize our beer float. And we, we used to have a big beer event. So, by the time I got to the march, I was exhausted. I, luckily, I drove the truck most of the years. But we had to, you know, but I always remember it was like, Oh my God, I'm tired. [00:55:00] And you drive up, and it was nice, and you're waving the music. But you get to the end, and I get out of the truck, and all these people who had never been in a march before just So damn animated, excited, the buzz of that, and I think, oh shit, it was worth it again. Yeah, but I think that was so important. You know, we must never let the role of collective experience, I'm a sociologist. So [00:55:30] the role of ritual, the role of people coming together. Uh, that's why I think those, those moments of the fair day. You know, that was a fair day, that everyone else, you have all your parish fairs and that, but we now had our own. Um, those dances, that was our dance, it was no different to a country dance, you know, in the Motuaka Hall, you know, and we all bought sandwiches, but that was our [00:56:00] dance. Uh, and so that claiming of who these are our things is so important. You know, I always see things through my well being lens, but they are the things that shift people's well being. They are the things where we know we belong. I talk about well being is where. Uh, we have thriving, uh, uh, strong individuals, strong in their identity, belonging, uh, [00:56:30] contributing, uh, to whanau and to others, their wellbeing and, and participating in safe and inclusive community. That, they are all the three levels which we need to have, as it were, lined up for good well being in communities, um, and that's where I think we did, we achieved a lot. So is this the, uh, thinking behind groups like, say, Rainbow Youth or was [00:57:00] it very, uh, was it kind of planned? Just more pragmatic saying, we need a space. I mean, was it, was that, was that deep level thinking? No, it was the spaces we had to be intentional. It was like there were the need for youth health centers. So there was like, we needed to have people come together because the philosophy is, is we had to break. isolation down. We needed places where people could go and just be and be safe and hear other [00:57:30] stories and it was that kind of peer support model. Uh, and that's where, but also at that policy level we'll, you know, uh, they went and got lottery funding for for the First Rainbow Youth Group. Uh, we started to find out about health some money. Um, the, you know, the AIDS Council had appointed Lee Rampton as the youth coordinator. So, like, we, with the Ministry of Youth Affairs, [00:58:00] Organized the first gay young men's HIV summit. Where we brought together gay young men from all over the country. I remember organizing it, having about 20 people sleeping in my lounge. But we organized it. Uh, and, and the powerful discussion, you know, of people, where people come from. Uh, you know, Nelson and small regional areas. And it was A strong [00:58:30] voice that lasted for several years because we got organized. Uh, we could, we, we, we gathered strong data because of people's stories saying this is the reality. Like, I remember at that, the Gay Youth Conference, we had a men's session, uh, and it was, we were talking about men and being young gay men, and it was kind of like you wait for someone to say something, and someone sort of said is, I [00:59:00] actually don't like being fucked. And suddenly, wow, we had this most incredible conversation about how do we learn to be gay men. You know, what is gay sex? How do we start to take agency and say, No, I don't want to do that. Um, you know, They were, those moments were incredibly powerful because we created spaces for intentional [00:59:30] conversations and that's why I'm a strong believer in, is unless we create space where we go deep to have conversations, change doesn't occur. Like, you can have lots and lots of associates, but unless you have, like, that close friend who's got your back, but where you can have those amazing all night conversations, whether it's the meaning of life, but, you know, framing it from [01:00:00] your sexuality. For older people, it's often debriefing. Like I'm now at the stage where some of my peers are now dying of cancer. And like just, I've been saying to people, it's bloody, you know, we had, we survived the virus and now bloody cancer is getting us. But that's an important conversation to have with someone. Uh, and I think that's where, uh, it's, it's, it's, they, they, they, they, they, they, [01:00:30] It had been, for me, the important moments where people have come together, where we've really seen things happen. Not because someone said up here, let's do it, but young people said, let's do it ourselves and took control. You know, it wasn't adults setting up the groups, it was young people and young people doing it. But I think also [01:01:00] The role of inspirational models were important. And that's why I think the first few hero parties weren't just about a party, it was about heroes. It was about people that we did look up to. Who did we honour? Who did we say were important? We all need to be inspired by people who have [01:01:30] thinking or have ways of understanding and that can articulate In a way, whether it's through art or dance or whatever, our experiences, uh, and that's, you know, we've had some amazing leaders in that way, in that space, um, but once again, What we saw was a change, even like in career [01:02:00] aspirations. Um, you know, we didn't all have to be hairdressers, or if you were a lesbian, drove Wellington buses. Like, we could go to university and get, and work in government and be out. You know, way before we had, like, sort of the PSA, sort of the public zoo, there were people coming together, organizing right through the unions, um, [01:02:30] you know. In a way, when you're involved, you didn't think much of it, but looking back now, I think, my God, what we did, despite of what was happening, I just think. And it was people's just doggedness. And it was also, once again, it was that community leadership where we didn't sit back and wait for someone else to do it. People just got up and did things. It was like we rolled up our sleeves, um, [01:03:00] and it was kind of like, Whether it was, you know, looking after people with HIV, whether it was just all those community things, people saw a need and did something about it. Which is remarkable when you think there is actually a hell of a lot to lose, given that say the Human Rights Act didn't come in until 1994. That's right. Yeah. It was passed in 93. Yeah. But I mean, you know. Prior to that, you could lose your job and you could lose your accommodation. Yeah, [01:03:30] but I think being not, no longer a criminal, It didn't really matter as much. It was important, because we had horrific stories, but we weren't timid anymore. We did so much in that time. But I remember, you know, Kevin Hay organized, we were, it was the, it was the, you know, our youth health conference, it was in Dunedin. And like, he just organized. So many gay, young gay men to go to that conference, and we just took it over. [01:04:00] Like, by the time at the end, there were remits supporting anti discrimination legislation. You know, that was people, you know, young people of all sorts of ages, telling their stories. And that's the thing is, when you tell your truth, People actually can't deny it. And we allowed people to tell their truth. And also to [01:04:30] tell, as it were, where their destination didn't have to be the destination of our past. There was future. Even though people were still dying at that stage. But we saw something more beyond. Which I think was really interesting compared when I was on my Winston Churchill Fellowship in New York. And I remember going to the New York Community Center and they said, oh yes, [01:05:00] we bought the building and we had all this to do. And that was in the very early 80s. And then they said AIDS came along and just took it all away. So all that, all their community action got dissipated into it. But, you know, that was a city ravaged by AIDS. I remember being in a meeting with a whole lot of, sort of, HIV activists, where, uh, and it was halfway through the meeting, all these [01:05:30] little alarms went off, which was telling people to take their AZT. And, and I realized that everyone in that room had the virus, and it was likely within the next two years, two to three years, we'll be dead. And so a whole generation of intellectual, of leadership was absolutely disrupted in our communities. And so we had to almost like [01:06:00] start again. I think the lucky thing in New Zealand, while we did have deaths, we had a much stronger community that took us through that. Just getting back to Rainbow Youth, were So that was what, set up in 87? No, it was a bit later than that. Yeah, 89. Were there other groups around the country that were set up? So we had What we had was, uh, paid [01:06:30] staff, paid people through I think a lottery funding again in Christchurch Patty, and there was a couple of others in their group, uh, paid staff. We had Sean in Auckland setting out Rainbow Youth Wellington. We did so much, we had more local. People, uh, you know, local volunteer. We didn't really have paid staff. Uh, but yes, as I said, there was this culmination of groups [01:07:00] started to appear. Some didn't last. Um, before sort of that, Paul Kinder, when he was in Dunedin, had set up a small group there. Morris had done the work at Wellington High, but now we started to see a more organized approach to it. But I think once again, uh, You know, there was a small group like Tien in [01:07:30] Rotorua. And because I used to travel around the country a lot, I'd often would stay with different groups. But, you know, they were, they were doing things that they, it was, it wasn't like, uh, you know, big education, but they were meeting, they were having, um, they, you know, several little groups got set up, little, like, gay social groups. Suddenly in Napier, you had the little gay group, [01:08:00] pub group, and, you know, and you'd go to the pub. But that was people, um, once again, uh, coming together, um, um, uh. And just daring to be that sort of light in the dark, like, it was almost like the Timaroos. You know, there was that darkness with a lot of people, but suddenly you would start to see people who were like, [01:08:30] like beacons of hope, almost like, in communities. And once again, I don't think if we didn't have that legislation that we would have seen those people. And so were they getting funding, or were they getting funding or resources? No, a lot of these were just doing, you know, we'll meet at a coffee club or we'll meet here. Some started to. We started to see some good organisation via the youth line in Hamilton. [01:09:00] And so a group started there. So all the, so it wasn't like, you know, One model, we sort of like planted it around the place, different, um, so that those, oh, no we did get, no we didn't get funding here, but we did get, Uh, some groups, you know, just really starting to be specific, um, [01:09:30] around the, around, around just being organizing and, and having activities and such like. Yeah. Um, but, sort of like, you know, The group, Rainbow Youth, I think because of its, uh, organization and starting to get more secure funding because it started to get runs on the boards, uh, started to become almost like. So some of the other groups did die, like [01:10:00] they lasted a few years, but that's local leadership, they move on. And so they didn't last. So that testament is by having sort of paid staff, you do get much better integration of programs or groups and such like. What do you think the kind of lasting legacy of groups like Rainbow Youth is? Uh, well, [01:10:30] I think what we have now is generations of, now, middle aged, sort of gay, lesbian, rainbow community members, um, and like at the beginning it was just gay and lesbian, uh, were people who have gone through that process, um, who I think have a better adjusted, um, [01:11:00] understanding of that, who then became like, when we started to talk about, you know, marriage, same sex marriage, when we started to talk about adoption, these were the people who had gone through a process that we're now saying is, well, we want more. Uh, and I think, uh, It has been people being able to, uh, or who have experienced a different way of [01:11:30] being that enables people to think more, to think differently. They haven't got that kind of, uh, baggage of that space. Uh, and so it's easier to demand more. When you see, well, what's the difference, you know, the community wasn't destroyed, people didn't. Um, and the fact that, you know, when we looked at [01:12:00] like marriage equality, like one of the things that switched people, uh, in the, in the, for the vote, for yes, some of the MPs, was all the data we presented about marriage equality. Gay youth mental health and the importance of what we did. Um, so those things were important, but I think we saw a whole range of new people taking on the mantle and doing the work. So with your vast experience [01:12:30] over decades, what are, I mean, what are the issues now for kind of rainbow youth people? Um, I think what it is, is, is how do we, I think it's particularly for trans people, it's like I was just talking, I give supervision to some people who are working in universities, and it's kind of like they say, it's alright, we get the gay and les, we get the sexuality, so that's not an [01:13:00] issue, uh, but I think that still is the issue, is the issue of diversity. See what we're, we're no longer seeing a label in terms of gender. So you're male, so you have to be a gay man. We're seeing a real diversity. Which is very strong and I think really important. So for me it's about is how each time We are facing new social [01:13:30] dynamics, is to make sure that those who are vulnerable in that time, who are starting to join that space, starting to explore for themselves, that we have created the space where their journey of inquiry, what I call their journey to their authentic self, can occur. And, and so once again, you know, harping back because it's, you know, [01:14:00] the cancellation of a, a, a rainbow, um, crossing, uh, the anti trans kind of discussions, the whole debate in sport, you know, about trans people, you know, all of those, Has an impact of someone who is in Tokoroa, who is in a Hamilton, uh, and is wanting to explore that. We have to keep on [01:14:30] keeping that space, those beacons of light that says you can take this journey and it's going to be okay. Yeah, it's interesting, like, I mean, as somebody who's in their 50s now, um, I mean, I guess one of the sad things for me is seeing that kind of, um, fracturing of, of, of, uh, particularly rainbow communities. And, and I guess, you know, like, how, how do [01:15:00] How do you cope with that? I mean, what are your thoughts around that? Well, it's of the fraction we're having more generally in our society. Um, it's, it's, we're not being called to that higher self, to the collective good. And if I feel that I have not, you know, my son hasn't got it, Got all the benefits that all these trans people are getting, or Maori people, you know what I mean, is, is when you start to [01:15:30] build up a resentment, um, I think, you know, one of the interesting things, for instance, in lesbian, has been the older lesbians and the younger lesbians, and I remember at the, at games, at the lesbian caucus, like, the shouting, That went on. Because the young lesbian says we don't want that. That's not our politics. And the older lesbians getting really, really angry. You don't know what we did for you. And [01:16:00] so it's about letting go. Like each new generation has to find their way of expressing it will be different to ours. But also we need to honor and and Of that which has, it's a bit like what is our Anzac Day? The people who fell, you know, who, what was the cost for us in being staunch? [01:16:30] You know, we were exhausted by, a lot of us by the end. You know, it took, we didn't realize it, but it did take a lot out of us. Uh, so I think they are important. Um, For me, what I find distressing is the narrative that's coming out of the kind of this, you know, women only, biological women, is it's the same discourse that we used by our [01:17:00] enemies, as it were, in the homosexual law reform. It's, why can't we be gracious enough to have respectful conversation, because conversation is about seeking understanding. You may still disagree, but at least we understand each other. We felt that we've been heard. And that's what we did in those gay youth groups, is we allowed people to be heard, to [01:17:30] share conversation, to learn. Um, and I think, you know, it's going to be a while, like, coming from public health. Who would have ever thought that vaccinations would be weaponised? You know, all those people who have worked, People have always worked in public health, have a strong sort of social justice being, uh, a real sense of, you know, respect for people, um, [01:18:00] and what, what was being said about people, you know, Michael Baker, who I remember as a young, uh, young man. Epidemiologist at the first, some of the first HIV conferences and always been a staunch ally, but that's where he that was his, um, sort of training ground where he, he got shaped about the role of public health and a social determinants model, a justice based model, [01:18:30] human rights based model. Um, So we are thankful of those allies, those people in our communities who've, you know, um, were there for us. Uh, and that's what we need again. Um, Yeah, I wonder also now, um, particularly with things like social media, where things are very kind of binary, you know, you're either with us or you're against us and, and that doesn't appear to me [01:19:00] anyway, personally, that there's a lot of space for, Complexity. That's right. And actually the celebration of people aren't complex and people have got baggage. It's like I used to always joke in those ads, remember we used to have the personals and people would say no baggage, those people are going to be very lucky because we've all got baggage, it's just the way we carry it, I used to always say. So yeah, it's right. We are, it is that nuance, but that's the nuance, [01:19:30] the difference between sort of stereotyping and prejudice. With stereotyping you think, well, but once you encounter, you change, because the encounter informed you, uh, it wasn't like it was. But now, because everyone's going down their own little burrows, we've got far more, like, prejudicial kind of understanding, you know, it's like this, you've got to be on our side.[01:20:00] Whereas we do, that's why it's about creating, how do we just create a space where people are allowed to be, uh, and, and, and it's okay for them to go on their journey. It's a bit like, you know, with marriage, well, we didn't want to marry all you straight men. If it wasn't going to affect you, you know, what's the fuss? And I think that's what has happened. A lot of people, New Zealanders, they will [01:20:30] It's not going to affect me. So why can't people who are in love? And that's where I just, we've just got it. And it's even to any young people, like when I, if you looked at young people's mental health 10 years ago, it was all about depression, depression, depression. And we would talk about depression and anxiety, because often those words are put together. Now it's all about anxiety. So what is it about our world that young people are so anxious? [01:21:00] So not only are you dealing with the complexity, whether it's of your sexuality or your gender, but you're doing it in a complexity of a world with climate change, with what is our future, um, uncertainty about, Employment, all sorts of things. The cost for education. I love telling my nieces and nephews that my university fees were 108 a year. [01:21:30] You know, and we got paid 30 a week bursary. Yeah, but now you leave a debt. Um, so where in our communities are we being hopeful for younger people? Just generally. Let alone our communities, uh, but that's where I also think the importance of how do we create intergenerational spaces again, because we want the wisdom of older people to say it's okay, you'll get [01:22:00] through this, you know, these are the things, but it was, it, it does take time for change to occur, but don't be disheartened on the way, I think those things are really important. Otherwise, we just get caught up with, you know, nothing's moving. Um, I think we were lucky because things did move, uh, and we influenced things, so it was easy to keep going [01:22:30] 'cause things did happen, but when it stuck, you know, and that's why the role of public policy is important that we do, you know, the, the legislation that allows people to change the agenda on passport. But that's important stuff. Because what we're doing is removing barriers where people can create, can explore their space and claim their legitimacy again. [01:23:00] And that it is recognised. People say, you're valid. We see you. You're not invisible.

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TITLE: Tour of Out in the City 2024
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VOICES: Billy Clemens; Clare O'Leary; David Oxenbridge; Gareth Watkins; Hamish Allardice; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Sam French; Sandra Marekino; Will Hansen
INTERVIEWER: Hamish Allardice
TAGS: 2020s; Amnesty International; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Billy Clemens; Black Sheep Animal Sanctuary; Body Positive; Burnett Foundation Aotearoa; Clare O'Leary; Craig Watson; David Oxenbridge; Different Strokes Wellington (DSW); Faith Communities United in Love; GAP (Gay Association of Professionals); Gareth Watkins; Gaza; Gender Minorities Aotearoa (GMA); GiveOUT Day; Golf New Zealand; HIV / AIDS; HIV testing and prevention; Hamish Allardice; Hikoi to Out in the City; Israel; Kawe Mahara Queer Archives Aotearoa; Kāhui Irarau (Massey University); Lesbian Information, Library and Archives Centre (LILAC); Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); MPI Primary Pride Network; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Massey University; NZ Drug Foundation; Naming New Zealand; Nigel Jeffcoat; Norman Jones; Nuku Ora; Palestine; Pride Parade (Wellington); Queer Endurance / Defiance; Rachel Hyde; Rainbow NZ Charitable Trust; Rainbow Team Wellington; Rainbow Wellington; Richter City Roller Derby; Sam French; Sandra Marekino; Sister Paula Brettkelly; St Andrew's on the Terrace; Te Rourou - One Aotearoa Foundation; The Glamaphones; Tighe Instone; Tory Whanau; Undetectable = Untransmittable (U=U, campaign); Wellington; Wellington Frontrunners; Wellington Indian Pride; Wellington Needle Exchange; Wellington Racqueteers; Zeal (Wellington); bigotry; dancing; faith; fencing; hope; human rights; hīkoi; kite; pizza; recycle; syphilis; unidentified voice(s); walking; webcam
DATE: 17 March 2024
YEAR: 2024
LOCATION: Michael Fowler Centre, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Hamish Allardice takes a tour of Out in the City and talks to some of the many stall holders. Out in the City was held at the Michael Fowler Centre, Wellington on 17 March 2024. This was the last event of the Wellington Pride Festival 2024. A special thank you to Hamish for being such a wonderful interviewer and being so generous with his time (this was an impromptu recording on the day).
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: June 2024
TEXT: Wow, excited. We're going from the ground floor up. We're going up the stairs in the Michael Fowler Centre. And, um, wow, we got some more stalls. Look at Amnesty International flying their colours. I always remember Amnesty International and the fact that they exist. And they're kind of looking out for my people all over the world. So, hi there. Kia ora. How are you doing? Alright, excited to have the doors open. The doors are open, I'm [00:00:30] Hamish. I'm just hanging out with Gareth and we're just going through, sort of seeing what people have got on their stalls. Do you want to tell me about yours? Uh, I'm here for Gender Minorities Aotearoa. I've got a whole bunch of different resources on everything from trans kids, to trauma, to bodies. I've got some mugs down here. Just to sell some bunting, some posters, all of that kind of stuff. You got the, the um, all the options covered. The posters have got beautiful images on them, haven't they? These are the only three posters that we have left, they're quite, quite [00:01:00] popular, but there's the same designs on the mugs and things like that too. That's great, and you've got information flyers as well. Yeah, yeah. What was your name, sorry? Ah, Chase. Hi Chase, nice to meet you. I hope you have a great time, and um, spread the word to your community and beyond. It's great, isn't it? Mm, mm, mm. Thanks so much for your time. Have a good one. Kia ora, how are you doing? Good, thank you. So I'm looking at a very big Yellow. Very bright yellow. Amnesty International store. I'm Hamish. I'm just hanging out with Gareth [00:01:30] and we thought we'd just pop around a few stores and see what how people are feeling today and, um, tell us about what you are doing just from my perspective, Amnesty International. I kind of think of it as being. being a, an organization that's looking after my people all over the world. So, um, thanks so much for trying to keep, keep people safe. Yeah. So, um, I'm Julianne, this is Christine. We are from the Wellington group of Amnesty International. Um, so yeah, we do, we, um, Amnesty as an organization, um, [00:02:00] works on behalf of all human rights. Um, everywhere, including the right to laugh. Yes, that's right, that's right. Yeah, so, at this stage we have a petition here which is actually related to the, um, calling for a ceasefire in Gaza, so it's not specific to, um, the rainbow community. No, no. But later in the day we're going to have some more, um, uh, letters and petitions to sign which will be on behalf of people who we're working for who have specifically been, have their human rights as gay people abused. [00:02:30] That's great. Yeah. Do you want to talk me through some of these little, are these, are these wristbands are they? This is, well we prefer to call it a bracelet, but yes, okay, a wristband, I admit it's just They're probably prettier than a wristband, you're quite right. They've got yellow rope on them, so you can see them easily around, and they've got Amnesty International written, and it looks like it's, Burnt in and into the wood. So they're quite attractive. Yeah, they're quite cute little things. And we've also got, um, for the more paranoid [00:03:00] amongst us, we have this webcam cover. Oh, a webcam cover! We want an amnesty webcam cover, so when you're doing your human rights work, nobody can be watching you while you do it. When you're doing anything on the internet, I think, it might be quite useful. Stickers. Yeah, we have stickers. And you've got a beaut I love this handmade beautiful Yeah. Is it a Would you call it a flag or it's a tablecloth? It's a tablecloth. I guess Banner, yeah. It's beautiful. It's got a lovely big rainbow heart and tassels hanging down from it. Yes. Oh, because it's a kite. Is it a kite? And [00:03:30] You could fly it. It could be. Yes, you might. It could be like a kite. It's like they've got kite images in rainbow and a beautiful big Yeah. A human right. Yeah. It is handmade. It's lovely. Yeah, it is beautifully handmade. We appreciate that. very much. Very cool. Hey, well you have a great time. I hope you're, um, able to spread the word. Thanks very much. Thanks for your time. Bye bye. And we're going around here. We've got another stall. Kia ora. So we've come up to the top level. We're just by the big stage. And what's here is Rainbow [00:04:00] Wellington. Flying all the colours. And we've got two very handsome young men here. Do you want to tell me your name? I'm Hamish, I'm just hanging out with Gareth. Hi Hamish, I'm Billy Clements, I'm a committee member for Rambo Wellington. I'm here with Sam French. Hi Sam and Billy, thanks so much for your community service. I think I saw you on Friday night at the drinks, the pizza and pizza drinks as well on Friday night. That was our kind of pizza and pride event that we were able to do. That was lovely. We, um, put on a, uh, did a little bit of a pizza shout just to draw [00:04:30] people in. And we probably had about 50, uh, 50 people. Sort of a range of different people. Sort of ages and demographics, and that's just what we're about sort of introducing people and making those connections It's that that's a key word isn't it? It really is about connections and 50 people who might have been home alone on Friday night came together and hung out and ate pizza Yeah, absolutely You can't beat that. So the other thing that Rainbow, Rainbow Wellington does is you guys fund lots of community organizations and things, don't you? You [00:05:00] seem to have cash. What's this about? Are you guys hooking on the side or what is going on here? How are you guys getting the cash? We've managed to, um, make a couple of connections there of, um, last year we partnered with, uh, Nuka Order, who runs around the bays. And so we, Um, got some charity partnership from, um, people running for us there. And then, um, with the, uh, New Zealand Rainbow Charitable Trust, um, with their give out day, we, um, got quite a few donations there which were matched. Um, and [00:05:30] also, um, with Golf New Zealand, we did a golf day last year. Um, and that, that funding was matched by the One Foundation, which is, um, part of One, like Vodafone. Um, so we got Quite a bit of cash, and so, uh, quite a few of the community groups who are here, we've, um, paid for their stall today. I know, I know, we're very grateful for your, your support. And, um, and then just some other pride, uh, festival. Uh, events as well. Um, [00:06:00] including the Pride Parade, so. Yeah, the Parade was a great success, wasn't it? Yeah, so it was great to see that back again. So, um, yeah, good to be able to support, support that. Yeah, it was well celebrated by the community as well. It was wonderful how people came out to see the Pride Parade, and they just looked overjoyed. I think it was a real highlight for our chair, Craig Watson, who's also involved in the festival, to be able to lead out with Tori Whanau, as Wellington's mayor, who's been a real advocate for the community. She was [00:06:30] actually at one of our last networking events, networking with the mayor, that was just this, sorry, last Thursday. So yeah, I think it was great to see a whole different variety of people, some overtly queer groups, but also some supportive and allies. which I think are a huge part, and you're seeing a few of them here today. We can't do it alone, can we? Well, thanks again for your service as a volunteer for Rainbow Wellington and for your connections that you're creating. Have a good day. [00:07:00] Happy Pride. Oh my god, Gareth, I think that badminton injury's got me. Can we take the lift this time? Absolutely. My heels are sore. I think it was too many years ago. years ago walking in those stilettos. It's ruined my calf muscles. So we've seen a number of stalls now Hamish. Um, paint a picture for me. What's the feeling like? It's just got a lovely open feel. People are really approachable and um, quite chatty. Um, pushing the lift button [00:07:30] and um, and just happy to, you I don't know just open and happy to explore why they're here and share that and also um it's like people have a vested interest in being here for their community. It's a whole range of stalls as well isn't it like it's community groups there's also commercial stalls here as well. That's right there's everyone's everyone's here well not everyone of course but you know there's a lot of people here and there's families there's kids there's [00:08:00] kids running around. The lovely part for me as an older gay man is to see so many young people who are here representing their communities. I think post COVID it's even more important that we get out and, uh, and make those connections. So we're just coming up to the second floor. Thanks for helping me with the lift. And, um, we're coming out the second floor and what do we see? Oh, and oh, should we, there's a fire, the fire brigade's here. Goodness. The emergency fire [00:08:30] brigade is here as well. Um, the origins of Indian pride are here, and there's a few other stalls around, community lore is here, um, people for the planet is here, there's a real array, that's the beauty of uh, this event. Wow, do you mind if we just walk down the stalls and you can describe what we're, what we're seeing? Sure, we can see, so there's some lovely trans flags for the people for the planet. And, um, then we've got, we've got Queer Endurance Defiance, which is Q E D. [00:09:00] Very cool. And, um, a very fabulous looking eager person. Looks like there's a, um, set up area that's for, um, children, for zeal. Zeal has got a, uh, play area for children. There's even water, free water and recycling bins. So we're loving the fact that we're looking after our planet as we cruise through. Oh, rainbow people. There's a lot of, a lot of rainbows there. And it looks like you can make your own badges. So you don't have to just accept someone else's creation, you can create your own. Take me through some of the badges. Oh wow, some of the [00:09:30] badges, goodness gracious. So we can see there's lesbian pride, there's bisexual pride, there's gay men's pride, there's allies as well. So you can pretty much, oh, progressive pride, brosexual pride, straight pride. Oh my god, there's everything there. So you can make your own badge and wear it with pride. Which one would you go for? Which one I'd probably identify with would probably Yeah. Goodness gracious, I could probably go that one as well. [00:10:00] And um, where else do we go here? Oh, we've got the Rictor City. So Rictor City is a fabulous roller derby woman. And um, Dabi, Dara, I remember during the out games here that we had in Wellington in 2011, um, the, The, um, Roller Derby was a fabulous event and, um, quite passionate one would have to say. Mmm. Great to see. It's kind of like same sex dancing. You have no idea what it's like until you go and then you just want to cry. It's so beautiful. It's just a great [00:10:30] experience. Yeah. Then what have we got here? We've got, um, Rainbow Team Wellington. Oh, wow. Hello. How are you guys? Some of the, um, guys on the stalls are from the racketeers. So the wonderful racketeers. So Rainbow Team Wellington is there. It's been set up already. Which is great. And that's where different strokes were. I'm supposed to be at some stage later on today. So we'll come back to that one sometime. So different, and the beauty of um, Rainbow Team, um, Rainbow Team Wellington is that there's everything here. [00:11:00] So you can do historical fencing. So you can get out a, um, a sword. And um, you, Covered by what's one of those steel things over your face so they can't kill you. But basically you can do swordplay, and you can do climbing, you can join the walking group. This is it if you want to do something a little bit sedentary. There's lilac. There's um, the same sex ballroom dancing. Public speaking. Rugby. You can join the Falcons. There's um, yeah, there's board games even, or tramping. Roller derby, different strokes, Wellington of course, uh, [00:11:30] the um, swim, and the racketeers. Cycling. Tennis. Do you want to do anything as a gay person nowadays? You can pretty much do it. Oh my lordy. And then if you've done all that exercise and you want to do something that, um, tops yourself up, you can come and hang out for cookies and, uh, So, sorry? Naming New Zealand. Right, that's pretty cool. So, the money from this stall [00:12:00] goes to helping people change their names. So, to become their authentic selves. That's awesome. Awesome. And I've got a great logo as well. We've got vegan. Oh my god. It's a little early for me in the morning. I've just had my brekkie. I know. How could I say no to that? But you know what? I might be next door at a later time and I might help myself. Grab a coffee. Yeah. Okay. Love your work. You take care. Enjoy your day. Okay, so. What have we got coming over here? [00:12:30] It's Body Positive. Wow. Body Positive New Zealand. So, and on the stall, we've got a beautiful red table. And we've got some safe sex information. Gay sex and risk. I'm healthy and I live with HIV. He's a handsome looking man. Goodness gracious, I can tell you that. And then, so there's lots of, um, lots of rainbow here and, um, This stall has no human there, but there's plenty of information available. I think there's somebody behind you. Is this [00:13:00] your stall? Oh, fantastic! Do you want to tell me a little bit about your stall? Uh, well, it's a body positive, an organisation that was founded for, by and for people living with HIV in New Zealand. Um, we have been several decades already existing, and Today promoting about, um, you know, being healthy and still living with HIV, being on medication, being undetectable, and everything that has to do with HIV and sexual life, sexual health life. Lovely, lovely. Oh, thank you. I'm Hamish. Sorry, I'm doing this back to front. Victor, [00:13:30] by the way. Lovely to meet you. Thank you very much. No, thank you. Thanks for your time and showing us your stall. Oh my goodness, there's stickers as well if you want stickers. Um, now we've got Primary Pride here. Yeah. Oh, I'm a very slow reader. So can you help me unpack this for me? Would that be okay? I'm Hamish. I'm just hanging out here with uh, Gareth and we're cruising around some stalls. So if it's okay to do a little chat? Yeah, yeah. Do you want to tell me about your stall? Um, so we're from the Ministry for Primary Industries. Oh, [00:14:00] MPI stall? Yes. Oh, it's down the bottom. Okay, there is an MPI down there. It's up the top of the other, I hadn't got over that side yet. Well, how awesome is this? And what, why would you, why would you think it would be a good idea to come here? Have you got gay fish? There are gay fish, there are. We got rainbow, oh we have rainbow trout, don't we? We have rainbow trout. Gayest trout. Oh, there we go. This is a safe place to work. We represent our primary pride network at MPI. [00:14:30] So we're basically, and we're a ministry where we've got such a broad range of, um, jobs and opportunities. Um, from, yeah, we, from the farm to the fort, covering all our primary industries. So, that's what we're sort of here to do. Would you like a pen? Oh, go on then. Thank you, Kylie. Oh my god, they're giving away free pens. What are these grand things here? So if you're a diver So these are for your minimum sizes for diving, for your crayfish, your scallops, and your um, paua, and we also have for fish limits, we've got um, rollers here for [00:15:00] fishing, so there are, yeah, limits, they're um, they are for paua, so that's to get the paua off the rock, and also to ensure you've got the correct size. Oh, that's handy when you're down under the water, because you can't really see, things look bigger sometimes when they're under the water, don't they? We know that from swimming. And yes, we support sustainable fishing. And yeah, gathering of food. So MPI, um, we have fishery offices which manage that as well. Oh, that's great. Herb seeds. Yeah, some seeds. And yeah, and for, you know, and it's got a link to our job site as well. So, um, one of the [00:15:30] promotions MPI did after COVID was, you know, opportunity to grow. So we're giving away these seeds, and then there's a link there to our, um, job site. And are these, um, native seeds? No, they don't look native, they're parsley. Oh, they're parsley! Oh my god, I hadn't opened in my defense. I've been trying to find other ones, but they all seem to be parsley so far. They're parsley. I have lots of parsley growing in my garden, and I'm very grateful for them. Hell, when it gets in your teeth, but great when it's in your gut. Isn't that the case? [00:16:00] Um, anyway, well, we'll keep on rocking forward. But thanks again for celebrating queer pride within your, um, within your wonderful ministry. Take care. Have a good day. And thanks for the pen. That's very handy. Kia ora. How are you going? I'm Hamish. I'm just hanging here with, um, the fabulous Gareth. And we were just, um, wanting to, if Will you be okay to talk about your store? Would that be okay? Yes, certainly. Kia ora. Um, so I'm representing Massey University today. [00:16:30] More, um, specifically Kahui Iruro, which is our rainbow platform at Massey. So it's not just a university, it's a university where you can not only learn things about how you can get a job, you can learn how to live as an out queer human. Learn how to be gay. Oh my god, you teach that? Do you give away toaster ovens? Safe campus, isn't it? Yeah. And have you got halls of residents where you work on this as well? We certainly do. And [00:17:00] Kahui, IRO is very much embedded, um, in a culturally respective model. Um, so it's come out of work with lots of rainbow and takatapui both students and community members. to sort of build it up and it basically represents the concept of many different voices coming together as one. So like our beautiful Manu of the forest, um, that's why we're represented by lots of different rainbow feathers that represents our different birds of our beautiful [00:17:30] forest. And you've got some paints hanging out here on the table as well, I see. So you're doing We're doing some free, um, face painting for Pride, so we've got some rainbow flags, we've got some rainbow love hearts, we've got some stencils, we can do a little bit of everything. You've got lots of rainbow colours here. Yeah, why not? These look beautiful. I could probably get a little touch up on my face. Beautiful, we can do anything you want. We can do, look. Oh my goodness, there's a beautiful um, she's got a [00:18:00] dragonfly and it's like the dragonfly is cruising and leaving this beautiful rainbow effect behind the dragonfly as it flies. That can't have, can't have been easy to do and you've certainly made it look very, very attractive. It is remarkably quick, so um, yeah, welcome anyone to pick whatever flags they want and we can make something happen. Thank you darling, love your work, looks great. Have a lovely day. And then, oh, this is about accommodation at the university and have everything there. So, [00:18:30] some of the courses that we've got here at Massey, some info about Kahui Ururoa, and there's some free lollies and sensory toys as well. There is. You've even got free pens as well. And stickers. Fridge magnets even. Alright, well you take care and have a good day. You too. Lots of pride. Hello, hello. Nice to see you. How are you doing? I'm Hamish. I'm from, um. I'm from Planet Earth somewhere. I'm just a Wellington person. I was just hanging out of Gareth and we thought we'd [00:19:00] go and have a look around the stalls, it seems. So, um, can you tell me about yours? Fantastic. It looks like you've got some beautiful pencils and um, colouring stencils. Is that what they're called? Yes, it's just colouring in. Just colouring in. Good, good place to chill. Um, this is Faith Communities United in Love. Ah. And. So that's your stall, yep. Yeah, so we, uh, really. Spreading the word about, um, affirming faith communities and [00:19:30] sharing resources. And here we have a bit of an interactive activity, which I invite you to contribute to, write or draw. This is about imagining our queer future. Oh, right. I might pop back and have a look at that. But this is, it's fascinating because when you think about it, the faith communities, they kind of get a bad rap, don't they? It's fascinating. Is that okay to say that? Oh, no, absolutely. I can't agree with you more. I think that's really, um, a very, uh, deserved [00:20:00] comment. Um, we still see a lot of the bigotry against our communities is from groups that, um, You know, say they're faith groups or from people who have ideas that are shaped, um, by, you know, parts of, kind of, faith thinking. Um, but I guess, you know, for us, we've, we've got people from, over the years, we've had people from different religions, different faith groups, who, um, actually see, um, Our spirituality is a [00:20:30] real source of strength, of power, of part of liberation, um, for the world, for queer people, and for everyone. Yeah, we're all healing from gay trauma, I think, early childhood trauma. So, it's kind of good to have somewhere that's safe, and um, can support people as they, um, unpack all that. And more beyond, go forward and fly with it. Yeah, faith's important. Oh great, well done you for being here and um, flying the [00:21:00] flag. Yeah, and remember to add, add your, your, your image, your words of hope for the future. Oh yeah, we, it's certainly a time that we need hope, isn't it? Goodness. All right, darling. Well, lots of love. It's also about inviting people to the table as well. Back to the table, those who walked away from faith journeys, reminding them that, you know, that. The journey hasn't necessarily finished. They're welcome back. Helping those who are already at the table, who are struggling [00:21:30] with understanding the theologies, particularly family members and loved ones. Um, so yeah, that's, that's why we're here. That's great. They're doing something similar. They're now doing something similar as well. Well done. Well congratulations on taking the time to come and hang with people today. Wow, so we were just in the main auditorium and heard Grant Robertson and Aisha Beryl and Shannon. Des and John. Des and John. Oh my god, what wonderful [00:22:00] icons they are for our community. So we were just hanging in the main auditorium and it was followed by a beautiful little Spanish film as well, which made me cry. I Anyway, so heaps more people here now, a lot more noise, and um, we thought we'd go, pop up to the, to upstairs to the um, upstairs promenade and see what's happening up there. So can you describe the people around us? It's a real mixture. Mainly young. Lots of young people, and uh, and beautifully um, [00:22:30] dressed, like there's lots of colour, there's lots of uh, lots of colour in hair and everything. It's a, it's a. And we've got some performances going on as well, eh? Yep, someone's on the main, um, the market stage. So, it's going off. Yep. All sorts is happening here. So your legs have improved since, um, since this morning? Yeah, they've been working on it, yeah. [00:23:00] Doing my stretches, as I'm told by my dear friend Marisa saying to me, You've got to do more stretches. So we're hanging up those stairs. There's a set of heels and a fabulous flag in front of me walking up the stairs. I don't know if I could walk so well on those heels, just saying. Um, yeah, so arriving up top to the upper promenade. [00:23:30] So, more rainbow flags again, which is great. And we'll have a look at some other stalls. So we've got three flags here. Hi guys, how are you? I'm Hamish, I'm just hanging with Gareth and me, going for a little walk. around trying to get a visual image because we're only on recording. Yes. So do you want to tell us about your stall? Yeah. Kia ora. Um, we're from the New Zealand Drug Foundation. We're here providing information and advice on how people can stay safer if they're choosing to use drugs. Uh, we're also promoting drug checking clinics, [00:24:00] which are clinics where people can bring their drugs to us and we can test them and give it back to them and tell them how they can be safer if they're choosing to use drugs. Wow. So the clinics are five days a week in Wellington, Tuesday until Saturday at the needle. Oh right, so people can take their drugs there and just get them tested. Yep. I've always been curious. Yes. Do you, if they test the drugs, if you test the drugs and you, they've no longer got the drugs, so, how, do you, how do you test it with, and then do you give it back to them? Yes, so the initial [00:24:30] machine is non destructive, so if the initial machine is giving a confident rating. There you go. Then you give it right back. You get everything back. Um, we can't confiscate anything, so if it's a drug you didn't think it was, you're still entitled to it back, and we'll just talk to you about how to be safe with it. I love it, I love it. Because I always wondered, when you give the drugs, they test it and it must be gone, but you can give it back to them. That's really good to know, people that are wanting to, wanting them, yeah. And you've got a beautiful ponamu there, is that a [00:25:00] shepherd's whistle? Yeah, it is. Does it work? It does, it does. Can you whistle? Good with that. No, I could never my brother was awesome at Shepard's whistles, but I was always rubbish. I could always whistle myself Or if I can't whistle at least I can bark Anyway, well, thanks so much. It's a very decorative looking Lots of different, uh, chemicals. Yeah. Thank you. Take care, lovey. Bye bye. [00:25:30] Now what have we got here? Oh, we've got this wonderful sports stall. David, it's great to see you again. I know you've been, um, uh, promoting what you're doing. Do you want to tell us a little bit about what you're doing? This is Gareth here. Oh. That is hanging. Thank you, Hamish and Gareth. Um, I'm the associate producer of a documentary called Interference. We're in development and we're running our crowdfunding campaign now. It's, if we get funding, it will be the first time the story of home sexual law reform has [00:26:00] been on the big screen. Interference? Yes. That's a great topic, I mean, great name for a documentary. Do you want to unpack that a little bit for me? Well the reason, it's called interference, a couple of reasons here Hamish, um, the first reason is, is that, little known fact is there was a lot of inter, American interference at the time. So a couple of pastors were sent over here to stage manage the campaign, um, for the conservative right leaning parties. What, what time are we at this stage? Are we in, is this the [00:26:30] 90s, or? So, homosexual law reform was passed in 1986. Yep. But we did not have the numbers right until the last, uh, the last moment. Oh, so interference is coming up to law reform. Is that the, you're talking about that period, coming up to law reform? Homosexual law reform in the 1980s, yep. So it was a campaign run over 16 months. We were trying to decriminalize homosexuality. The other side did not want that to happen. Yeah. And so they brought the Americans over to, you know, No, kind of like in the war when they came over and were doing all that [00:27:00] shagging at Kiwi 2 Park. But different reasons this time. Well they might have been shagging, I can't tell you they didn't. Well where do you think that beat came from at Kiwi 2 Park? Anyway. There's another reason why it's called interference also, it's because of our activists ability to pass us straight. So one thing they did for instance is in um, one, there's a couple of stories of our own interference. And one really awesome story is how, um, Teddy Enstone, who you will see, um, on our teaser, and some other kind of [00:27:30] lesbian activists, dressed as nuns to infiltrate a conservative, right wing evangelical conference. Now they knew something was up, but they found it very difficult to kick nuns out of the conference, didn't they? Wow, Sister Paula would be pleased. Um, could tell me, um, great, great initiative, great idea and everything else, but what do you need so far? How can people help? So we're running a crowdfunding campaign, we're looking for 30, 000. And we need to make people Oh, 30, 000! [00:28:00] Oh my god, you need money, okay. So the crowdfunding campaign finishes at the end of this month. We've had a lot of goodwill from the community, we're very She raised nearly 40 percent already, but we need to raise the rest in the next 10 days. 10 days? Oh my god, that's not, so that's, I'm not very good on percentages, 30, 000 and you've got 40%, so you must have about 16 or 17, 000 that you need to raise. It's better than mathematics and I've got Hamish. Okay, we're working it babe. So, um, okay, if anyone's [00:28:30] listening to this and would like to, um, donate some money, um, some, or, okay. You will need to use good old Google. I've got lots of brochures here and QR codes, but that's not very, it's not a visual, it's only a visual medium, not a very audio one. So, audio, how do they find you? If you were to go into Google, if you were to go to the Boosted site, so Boosted is a crowdfunding site that's administered by the Arts Foundation. You will see Interference, the documentary, on that page and that's where they can donate. So if they Google Boosted, the [00:29:00] crowdfunding campaign on Google, and then search for Interference, they'll find us on that platform. Awesome, that's great. Hey, thanks so much and good luck with the initiative. guys. Love your work. See ya. Thanks for the surprise. I'm Hamish, I'm just hanging with Gareth here and we're just Do you want to tell us about what Black Sheep is all about? Yeah, absolutely. Um, so Sorry, just take this off. Uh, so we're a farm animal sanctuary up in Otaki. So we take in injured, [00:29:30] abused, neglected, unwanted animals, and we just give them a good home. Um, if animals are eligible for adoption, we'll find forever homes for them and adopt them out. Otherwise, if they have, um, health issues, um, or need specialized care, then we care for them throughout their life. Thank you. That's awesome. Sorry, what was your name? Liss. Liss. Nice to meet you, Liss. And we've got t shirts available here for sale and caps. And even hoodies. Yes. And plenty of stickers as well. Yes. Well, all you of course. And this is actually our whole thing. This is all you [00:30:00] guys. We've just taken up a little bit of space. Oh my lord. So yeah, we've got baking and pies and some badges down there as well. So you've got faux chicken pies. Yes. Oh, so no chickens in the pie? Chicken pies. Yes. Yeah. So 'cause you are having them as pets and giving a good life, you're not killing them and eating them. Okay. Yes. Wow. It's quite the concept. You've committed to the cause, . Absolutely. Hey, well thanks so much for having a chat to us today. Yeah, of course. Have a good one. Bye-Bye. Nice. Hi Marty. Nice to see you. Nice to [00:30:30] see you. Looking fabulous for pride. Yes. How are you feeling? Tired, . Tired. Sorry, only because I missed my bus. I ended up walking in here this morning. So yeah, yeah, I can still do it And how you feel about the little pride gathering that we have here in the Michael Fowler Center? Well, it's not little. I know it's huge. Lots of people today just saying how wonderful it is that we're doing this again How important it is, but the incredible diversity that's here. It's [00:31:00] just amazing It's beautiful. Isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's amazing. So how do you feel when you look around today and you reflect back on, you know, Newtown Fair days and what it was like? Well, Clare and I have been with the new Kahumara, the Queer Archives table, and we were talking about, you know, what it was like 45 years ago, remembering Norm Jones on the stage. We've got a stage here screaming at us, get into the gutters, um, it's, yeah, we've come a long way. It's exciting. Isn't it great? Well, happy Pride [00:31:30] to you. I hope you have a lovely day. Happy Pride to you both. Enjoy some of the sun as well. I will do that. Bye. Take care, lovey. Bye bye. Oh my god. It's quite overwhelming. We just walked into the Harbour Lounge, which is backed by the most beautiful view of the city and it's a gorgeous day outside. And uh, just looking at all the different stalls here. And, um, should we pop over and see Queer Archives Aotearoa, yeah? We might have to come back to them, they look completely [00:32:00] slammed by all these people chatting to them. So, let's see what's behind us. We've got the Burnett Foundation, should we pop over and have a little chat with them? Kia ora! How are you going people? We're doing great! How are you going? I'm Hamish. I'm just um, hanging out with Gareth, and we're just going around chatting and seeing how people are doing. How's Pride and your experience today? Oh, awesome. No, we're having a great [00:32:30] time. We're so excited to seeing the amount of people here just celebrating Pride. Everyone's in such glorious moods to be here as well. You can feel the energy. It's wonderful. It's so wonderful. Do you want to tell me about the Burnett Foundation and what you're about? Absolutely. So, the Burnett Foundation is all about education around HIV, um, transmission. Um, we do on site testing for both HIV and syphilis, um, we provide a lot of information in regards to, um, wider rainbow [00:33:00] sexual health, completely free services as well. Okay, so, and the Burnett Foundation came from Bruce Burnett, wasn't it? Yes. Who was a wonderful gay man who came back to New Zealand, I think it was, it must have been the early 80s, he came home. Yes, absolutely, that's absolutely right, and it's all part of recognising, you know, all the wonderful, the wonderful mahi that Bruce has done alongside a lot of other people. Sadly he passed away, but Bruce, the Burnett Foundation, comes from the New Zealand AIDS [00:33:30] Foundation, doesn't it? Yes, that's absolutely right, yeah. Born from that, and then, um, the Burnett Foundation is, uh, trying to move away from it's just not about HIV, it's about the holistic look of, uh, look of it. Is that, is that, am I on the money with that? So still recognising that HIV is at the forefront of the work we do, but recognising that we're, we're here for all sorts of wider rainbow community as well, and recognising that. recognising all the communities affected by HIV. Oh well thanks for chatting with us today. I was just looking at your fabulous store. [00:34:00] You've got answer a question, win a prize. So tell me what's the question and see if I can answer it. Okie dokie. What does U equals U mean? Q equals U. U equals U. Oh U equals U. Yes. What does it mean? It means undetectable equals untransmissible, transmittable. That's exactly right. Wow that's awesome. How did I know? Hey, well, thanks so much for your time. I'm glad to hear that we're able to spread a message that [00:34:30] undetectable equals untransmittable. Awesome. Thank you so much. I hope you guys have a wonderful day. Hey, thanks guys. See ya. Oh, we've got some room over here now at Queer Archive. Kia ora. How are you guys going? I'm Hamish. Kia ora. Welcome to Kawemahara, Queer Archives Aotearoa. It is the new name. Oh, is that the new name? Very good. Which came from the community. I'm just catching up. And it means to [00:35:00] carry the memories of our past, present and future queer communities. Are you still housed up at the um, the old National Library? Yes we are. Oh wow. They are like a kaitiaki and we're still owned by the queer community. Isn't that wonderful, they're still offering you support. And what do you need from people who might be hanging out here today? Well, just to understand. And the importance of keeping our queer stories alive and also [00:35:30] honouring the people that fought for our liberation during gay liberation, homosexual law reform, all of the things that made us be able to live our lives in peace and harmony and the way we want. The way we want. That's an awesome outcome. And we've got people if they wanted to could join. Yep. Absolutely. And we've got a whole bunch of volunteer opportunities, including a new working group, which is specifically trying to capture. Trans and intersex, um, digital archives that are being made today, so we don't miss out [00:36:00] on, on all the, all the content that's being, that's being made now. Port of Mahi, well I hope you're able to find some new volunteers here today, and um, thanks so much for your time. Thank you, and thank you for recording this event. Thanks guys, see ya, bye bye. Hey I'm Hamish, I'm just hanging out with Gareth, and we're just going around chatting some people on the stalls, and I see you've You're here in, I think, aren't you Wellington Frontrunners? Yes, [00:36:30] yes we are. Do you want to introduce yourself and say, tell me about Frontrunners? Uh, I'm Brendan. I'm Anthony. Uh, and Frontrunners is a free and friendly group for all LGBT runners within the Wellington region. Uh, we meet once a week outside Friberg Pool on a Sunday morning at 9am. Wow, that's great. That's pretty awesome, and so if you go, is it a, like if I was, had never run before and I wanted to learn to run, could, can you do it with me, or would you, do I need [00:37:00] to be a fabulous runner? Uh, you can, you can certainly start, start, um, with us, um. So you can take all, all abilities is what I'm thinking. Yes. We never leave anyone behind. Yeah. You don't leave anyone behind. Oh my God. It's like the Navy Seals. I love it. And, and since, uh, and since our dear Nigel departed, we don't run up that terrible hill anymore. Oh, do you not do, when I ran in for Jolly Frontrunners, Nigel always made me run up that hill. Especially at the [00:37:30] end. Yes. Right at the up that zigzag round up from the bay. Oh my God. That was a killer as well. It was indeed. We don't. So. So, I'm letting it out here that, yes, I used to run for Wellington Frontrunners as well. I loved it. And Nigel Departed means he moved to Hawke's Bay. He didn't die. Just for anyone who's listening, thinking, oh my god, does Nigel die? Wonderful Nigel Jeffcoat, who is a great supporter. And he would be running along like a whippet, and I'd be running like a draft horse. And he'd be [00:38:00] chatting away to me, and I'd be smiling. Sweating away and hardly able to breathe and talk. That's Nigel. That's Nigel. That's our Nigel. That's awesome. Great to hear that Frontrunners is still happening. Yep. Yep. And um, you're looking fabulous as a result of your efforts. Oh of course. Always. Okay. Thanks for chatting with us today. See ya. Kia ora. How are you? Hi Sandra. Hi Sandra. I'm Hamish. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you Hamish. How's Pride and the um, out in the city going for you? Um, going good so far. I see you're wearing a Glamourphones t shirt. Oh we're [00:38:30] seeing you soon. Are you staying? Yes, we'll be here for the event. I think you're on the main stage at 3 o'clock, is that right? Uh, 1. 45. Oh, 1. 45, oh my goodness. That's very soon, yeah. Okay, we'll have to come and enjoy. Do you know what you're singing today? Five songs, six songs, I'm not telling you. Okay, that's fine. You better be here to hear it. I'll have to be here to get it, that's great. So, thinking about the Glamour Phones, how long have you been singing with them? I wanted to start it last year. Awesome. Mid July. Okay. I. Well apparently, every [00:39:00] concert Glamourphones have, I'm there. I'm always watching their concerts. So, I have been thinking about joining Glamourphones many years ago. Even my friends inquired me to join. I said, I haven't got the voice, so I, I'm not sure. I'm thinking about it. So, last year when I watched their, um, Dolly Parton show at St. Andrews. Oh yes, yeah. That's what made me decide big. You felt inspired. Yes. Listening to the beautiful voices. And seeing those, that great connection that those people have. Yeah, and now thanks to this. [00:39:30] You were dancing as well? Yes. So singing and dancing? Yes. Oh my god, is there anything you can't do? I can't climb a wall. You can't climb a wall. I think it's probably just as well. Yeah. Well that's great and um, Have you got a favourite stall other than the Glamourphones? Have you got a favourite stall that you might have seen here today? No I haven't. Is there anyone, nothing yet impressed on you? No, it was just nice to see everyone out today. Isn't it lovely? All our young ones, our young generations coming out. Nice to see. That's what I [00:40:00] noticed as well. There's so many people who are um, yeah. Young and colorful and free. I love it. Yeah. And a grateful day too today as well. We should have been outside. I know, but we can never tell what the weather's gonna be like here. Could be like last Monday. Oh, that's true. Remember we, when we had the other day, we had Newtown Festival on the Sunday. Did you go to that? It was just gorgeous. And then it was the next day. It was a how horrible cold day. I'm glad I made a Sunday. Yeah. So that's why we moved it to. Yeah. Anyway. [00:40:30] Hey, well, lovely to see you. It's lovely to see you too. Enjoy your day. I will. And you too. Okay. Taste every flavour. It's a good t shirt. Thanks, doll. You're welcome. Take care. See you again. Bye bye. See you soon. Bye bye. I'm Hamish. Nice to meet you. I'm Kent. Nice to meet you. And I see you're hanging with the Glamour Phones. Yes. You've got a Glamour Phones t shirt on. Yes. Wearing it well. And is this a song? I hear you're singing five songs at 1. 45. Actually, seven songs. Seven songs at 1. 45. Is it? Do [00:41:00] you want to tell me, do you know who chose the songs and why they chose them? I think our director Rachel chose them. Most of them have a queer history to them, so, you know, all classics. Do you want to tell me about some of them and what they mean to you? Oh, um. Any of them? Any of them special to you? Or what are some of them? Maybe I know some of them. Constant Craving by Katie Lang. Right. It's a banger. What else are we doing? It's like last week. I'm so on a limb here at this stage because I'm not very good at singing. [00:41:30] A little respect. I mean, that's, have you seen that musical video from like back in the 90s? 80s? 90s? I mean, I'm sure before the time, it was so gay. It's just eluding me right now, but yeah. Oh, sorry. Talking about a revolution? Old people. Me and my memory. What was the last song? What are you going to close with? I think I Will Survive. Oh, of course. A total gay anthem. I remember screaming that on the media dance floor. Floor anyway, [00:42:00] so, um, great. So that's enough about your last weekend, isn't it? So tell me about, um, the glam phones, how long you've been singing with them. Uh, I've been in it just one year. One year? Um, yeah. Oh, did you, did you um, join up after the last Hicky? I think I met you on that hick. That was so last. Pride after. Pride event. You um, started singing with the Glamophones. What a great outcome from a community organisation like that. Yeah, I mean, the HECO was, I mean, obviously what they're marching for was great [00:42:30] as well, but it was great to have lots of community groups and have that awareness of what's out there in Wellington. That's right, start to learn. And um, and you haven't been Swimming yet? We have to get you in the swimming. One day. One day, maybe. Oh, well I'm glad to hear you joined up with the Glamour Phones. So you guys rehearsed on Thursday night. Yes. Where about, do you still Still in St. Andrews. Is there rehearsal at the St. Andrews on the Terrace Thursday night? What time? Uh, six 6. 30. 6. 30 and anyone can just rock on down and bring their beautiful [00:43:00] voice? Yeah. Yeah. Well they're not so beautiful voice. Well that's nice to know. It's welcoming for everyone. Any kind of voice, of course. You can come and, the beauty of singing in a choir is you don't have to be too fabulous because you're singing in a choir. Exactly. Anyway. I mean I'm there so. I look forward to hearing you guys on the stage and there's seven pieces that will be a part of that. Thanks Hamish. Thanks Gareth. See ya. Bye bye.

IRN: 3799
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/opening_of_out_in_the_city_2024.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004981
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1107392
TITLE: Opening of Out in the City 2024
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Craig Watson; Kevin Haunui; Richard Tankersley; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Craig Watson; Kevin Haunui; Michael Fowler Centre; Out in the City (Wellington); Richard Tankersley; Tīwhanawhana; Wellington; Wellington Pride Festival (2024)
DATE: 17 March 2024
YEAR: 2024
LOCATION: Michael Fowler Centre, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: June 2024
TEXT: [00:02:30] Tēnā koutou. Tēnā koutou. Whakatau mai rā. Tū whakahihi e te Whanganui a Tau. Ah, kia ora everybody. Thank you for coming today to the, um, to Outland City. This is the last event for the Wellington Pride Festival and it's been amazing to put this on. Just want to acknowledge, um, the land on which we are on, mana whenua, um, and it's been a [00:03:00] privilege to host. an inclusive and diverse event in their space. Today, um, we have some amazing artists who have put a lot of work into creating some beautiful stools, and I want to say thank you. Thank you for putting your effort in. Thank you for turning up. Thank you for creating some beautiful creative products. Um, I hope you all do really well today. We're expecting some big crowds to come along. Um, Yeah, from, from the Wellington [00:03:30] Pride Festival, um, we just want to say a massive thank you. This has been an amazing festival, um, and it's a great way to finish it out today. So please have fun, please enjoy, um, and thank you very much. Um, yeah. Thank you. Ah, kia ora tatou. So, our waiata, we can all sing, hopefully. If you know it, uh, tu tira mai nga iwi. So a bit of a, a bit of a plug for [00:04:00] uh, Tīwhanawhana, come along and uh, Listen to us try and sing this afternoon between 3 Nō reira, uh, te mai kāmihi. Uh, after the waiata, there will be a short karakia, and then that's the opening of today's event. Uh, here at the Michael Fowler Center out in the city, 2024.

IRN: 3797
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/judy_and_dennis_shepard_read_i_am.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004985
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1107396
TITLE: I Am read by Judy and Dennis Shepard
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Dennis Shepard; Judy Shepard
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1990s; 2020s; Dennis Shepard; Judy Shepard; Matthew Shepard; United States of America; Wyoming; gay; poetry
DATE: 28 May 2024
YEAR: 2024
LOCATION: Embassy of the United States, 29 Fitzherbert Terrace, Thorndon, Wellington
CONTEXT: Judy and Dennis Shepard, the parents of Matthew Shepard, read a poem written by Matthew in one of his journals. Matthew was brutally killed in Wyoming, USA in October 1998. It was one of the most notorious anti-gay hate crimes in the history of the United States. As part of a larger Pacific tour, Judy and Dennis visited New Zealand for the first time. This poem comes from a longer interview recorded at the same time.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: May 2024
TEXT: The poem begins, I am sensitive. I am honest. I am sincere. I am not a pest. I am my own person. I am warm. I am funny, nice, hopeful, energetic, giving, understanding, sometimes selfish, sincere, generous, irritable, gay, cute, interesting, intelligent, poor, humble, and outgoing. I am Matthew Shepard. I am Matthew Shepard.

IRN: 3795
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/judy_and_dennis_shepard.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004984
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1107395
TITLE: Judy and Dennis Shepard
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Dennis Shepard; Judy Shepard
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Dennis Shepard; Donald Trump; Embassy of the United States; Judy Shepard; Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (KSA); Matthew Shepard; Matthew Shepard and James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act (2009); National Museum of American History; Nex Benedict; Presidential Medal of Freedom; Roe v. Wade; Smithsonian Institution; Sydney; Tectonic Theater Project; The Laramie Project; United States of America; Wellington; Wyoming; diversity; equality; gay; hate; hate act; hate crime; hate speech; marriage equality; poetry; suicide; suicide prevention; trans; transgender; victim impact statement
DATE: 28 May 2024
YEAR: 2024
LOCATION: Embassy of the United States, 29 Fitzherbert Terrace, Thorndon, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: May 2024
TEXT: I'm Judy Shepard. I am a co founder of the Matthew Shepard Foundation, named after our son Matthew, Matt, to us. Um, we're here sort of visiting embassies and consulate posts to talk about our son Matt and his, uh, murder in an anti gay hate crime in October of 1998. We're just hoping to raise awareness about marginalized communities, um, around the world. So 1998, that was over 25 years ago. [00:00:30] What has kept you going for that length of time in this work? Well, I'll answer that because I think it's, the work isn't done. We thought when all the rights were granted to the LGBTQI plus community, You know, our work would be over, right? That their equality would exist in the U. S. And maybe by some extension, the world would be the, uh, community better as well. [00:01:00] But in the U. S., we've taken a hard turn to the right, and our work is ongoing. We still had, the LGBTQ community still does not have all the, all the rights of an American citizen. that are granted to them, uh, for the straight citizens. So, our job is to try and bring the equality up towards evil across the board, like it's supposed to be for all American citizens. And I'm reminded very much of [00:01:30] even the death of Nix Benedict early this year, and just how current this stuff still is. Right, it's an ongoing problem, um, aggravated by bullying and, uh, young people losing their self esteem. So, suicides are still an issue, and we've, we just feel like we could reach equality through the laws, that maybe kids would feel, um, more accepted, um, because [00:02:00] legally they'd be recognized. I don't know that we can change people's hearts and minds, but if we could get a good start at it, that would follow. Sadly, what we're seeing is, rather than doing what's best for all the citizens in their particular, uh, community or state, they're, a lot of these people are doing whatever they can, To render fear, just so they can get voted back in again and stay [00:02:30] in elected office instead of having to go out and be part of the regular community. So they're trying to top each other on the, to me, evil laws, bills that they're introducing and the laws that are being passed around the country. Particularly against the transgender community. You're in quite a privileged position where you are seeing how different countries respond. Can you [00:03:00] talk to me about how, um, what are some of the commonalities and what are some of the differences between say, here in New Zealand and Australia and, and the U. S.? Well, I think you, I think you've surpassed us, uh, in time wise of several things. Um, I certainly think the size of the U. S. sort of contributes to our problem because we could actually be like five countries because of the, uh, ideology of the separate parts of the U. S. [00:03:30] But the, you're, you're better, y'all are better at it than we are. Um, the acceptance part of it, still facing issues, of course, but you did marriage before us. Um, I don't know, I think size plays a role there, but we've found that y'all just have outpaced us in everything. The recognition of diversity in Australia and New Zealand, um, and the way you've handled it with the laws accepting, uh, the LGBTQ [00:04:00] community, same sex marriages, everything, uh, really, you lead the world in acceptance of everybody. And letting everybody here know that they are an equal to everybody else. The one area of weakness I see is that you do not have any specific hate crime laws that need to be put on the books so that [00:04:30] people know that if they do commit a crime, and that it is. Designated a hate crime. There are enhanced penalties, severe enhanced penalties in that respect. As long as they understand and learn the definitions between hate speech and hate acts and how hate speech can also be, uh, used for [00:05:00] prosecution because it leads into violent acts. Can I just make a correction? I understand we had marriage before y'all. A couple months. So, but the rest of it, you beat us. But the problem is, your, your marriage was by law. Ours was by court decision. The difference is, that court decision, like we saw in Roe v. Wade about abortions, can be immediately taken away. But by having it as part of [00:05:30] your national law, it's going to be a lot harder to take that away from, from people. True. Well, speaking of marriage, one of the most touching things I read, um, was in 2018, you donated some of Matthew's items to the Smithsonian. And one of those items was a wedding ring. Can you, can you talk about that? It was a ring. Yes. [00:06:00] Um, we are not aware if he bought that ring specifically, uh, or in preparation of, um, he didn't have a boyfriend at the time. Um, uh, that was a, um, Matt very much liked to be in style, right? So, if he saw this ring and he thought it was attractive and would look nice on his hand, he might, that's why he might have bought it. We're just not really sure about his motivation, [00:06:30] but if he bought it because he thought in some future time that even then he would not have even considered a possibility, I think that is really cool. He talked about how you and he, he talked about that. About marriage? Well, he said he thought he would never be able to The term marriage and to be legally responsible for one another would not happen. But in the late 90s, well in the 90s when Matt was just coming out, it was still very negative. Uh, [00:07:00] environment for the gay community and, you know, the AIDS pandemic was raging then and, uh, really gay pride parades were the only thing the straight community were aware of, uh, on, in a media sense. So, um, I just, he didn't have very much optimism then that equality would be reached for the community. His goal then was just fighting to be left alone, basically, uh, fighting against the violence and to, to stop legislators from taking things away from the gay community. [00:07:30] Why was it important to donate some of Matt's items to the Smithsonian? Well, we were approached by the museum folks in D. C. They were putting together a collection of LGBT memorabilia from all kinds of, um, Folks, um, past activists from way back in the 60s and 70s, and, uh, Matt had become sort of, um, an [00:08:00] iconic name associated with the community. So they came and took some, they took all the cards and letters that we had received Um, for the paper part and then the other part was a few objects. One was a Superman cape and the ring that you mentioned in a shoe and, um, a few other things meant for the collection at large, not meant specifically, but they, they felt he should be represented in this collection. How do you navigate, [00:08:30] um, The Matt, the talking about Matt publicly and holding on to Matt privately. I mean, you've, you've been with the foundation for 25 years. How does, how does that work? Uh, it is kind of a combination because everybody talks about Matthew and we talked about Matt. That's the difference. Matt is our son. Or brother or friend, Matthew is somebody that [00:09:00] represents the LGBTQ community and the violence and lack of respect and equality. So, when we, we are able to keep Matt separate in a way by talking about Matt. Um, in a way it also helps us grieve. Because, After we lost Matt, I went back to Saudi Arabia to work. Judy [00:09:30] stayed in Wyoming to start the foundation. And our younger son went back to boarding school. So we never did get to grieve together. And I think for us it was probably beneficial that way. Because even when you're together, you really aren't grieving together. You all have your, everybody has their separate memories and reasons for grieving. Mourning the loss of that person, whether personal or professional, whatever it might be. So, by talking [00:10:00] about Matt as we do, using him as an example of what needs to be done, not just in America, but around the world when we travel to try and make it better for everybody, uh, it keeps him alive. Um, Keeps him fresh where he wouldn't be otherwise. So we always have Matt with us So we can talk about the things we were so proud of as well as the things that irritated us so much [00:10:30] Which you know, all kids do that to their parents. Yeah, so It helps because it keeps you fresh it makes it easier for us to talk about him to others To make it relate to others. There are stories we have kept just to ourselves. Um, we consciously made a selection of which ones we would share about Matt and which ones would just be ours. Um, Matt's younger brother won't do any media because he says all his memories are [00:11:00] just his. One of the really lovely things I came across online was a poem written by Matt called I Am and just reading that I get glimpses of his personality and often I think it's actually really nice to remember, well it's important to remember what happened to Matt but also Matt as a, as a person. I'm wondering, can you talk to me about [00:11:30] the poem and then possibly read it for me? And we found, uh, after Matt passed, we collected his things from his apartment. We found several, um, Matt was not a very organized person and we found many notebooks where he had made, uh, jots of thoughts and, and, I guess some people are considering it poetry, I'm, I consider it scribblings. I consider it journaling. That's the way he journaled. He, he just [00:12:00] Talked about life and him. We'd write down things as they came to him and not any kind of organized pattern. And there was a particular poem that has become, um, Quite well known, uh, in the, in the media. It was used in, um, the performance of Considering Matthew Shepard, a, a choral piece, it's one of the songs, in one of the songs. And it's also in a, uh, a craft brewery in Denver, Colorado came out with a special beer called I Am, and on the side of it, it had part [00:12:30] of his journaling also. This particular poem on the side was very cool. Yeah. So, um, I don't know if he, uh, These are his own thoughts at some point in time in his life, so. The poem begins, I am sensitive. I am honest. I am sincere. I am not a pest. I am my own person. I am warm. I am funny, nice. Hopeful, energetic, giving. Understanding, sometimes selfish, [00:13:00] sincere. Generous, irritable, gay. Cute, interesting, intelligent. Poor. Humble and outgoing. I am Matthew Shepard. I am Matthew Shepard. What was it like reading that for the first time? I had not realized that Matt was introspective. Um, Matt was such a talker. I never really thought of him as also being a [00:13:30] thinker. I didn't think he'd have time to write anything down. He was always so busy and, as Judy said, Oh, he's so outgoing with people that when did he have time to do that? It's just like, I was shocked also, yeah. We're not really sure the time frame this was written either, whether it was when he was in Denver or Casper or Laramie. Laramie, right? You bring up Laramie and one of the, um, key, um, kind of [00:14:00] creative works to, uh, reflect on, on Matt is the Laramie Project. And I saw that, um, Dennis, you, you were actually in the Laramie Project in Sydney recently. Yes. Playing, playing yourself. Yes. Can you talk about that? Um, it was quite an honor. Tectonic Theater, when we first met Moises Kaufman and his husband Jeff LaHost, they said they were in Laramie to do interviews, to see if there was something [00:14:30] there that might justify a play. And Judy asked them, is it about us? And he said, no. Is it about Matt? And they again said, no. He said, have at it. And, um It was about the issues surrounding why we lost Matt, uh, why they thought it was open season, uh, to do anything they wanted to, to the LGBTQ community, because [00:15:00] around the country, law, uh, law enforcement basically shrugged off anything that ever happened to anybody within the LGBTQ community. Um, so when. They did the play and they, they interviewed everybody. They actually included a small portion of my victim impact statement. My victim at impact statement is actually four pages long talking [00:15:30] about Matt and who he was and what a loss family and friends thought, uh, because He was now gone and what he was going to do to change the world. So to have that small piece put in there, uh, I thought was, uh, rather shocking to me that, and then I have only done that, uh, read my piece twice. I did it in 2018 [00:16:00] in Tectonic Theater, uh, itself in New York was the first time. And then I was honored again. When I was asked to do it in Sydney, um, about a week and a half ago. And again, it was, uh, quite extraordinary to do it because you bring it back, brings back memories of me being in the court, talking to the judge and jury, and reading this, and the flashbacks of, of Matt [00:16:30] himself, um. What he, his dreams and goals and him growing up with us and everything. So, yeah, I was rather honored they've asked me to do that. It's interesting when you're talking about kind of dreams and goals, because I, I was, I was thinking before this interview in terms of why does Matt's story in life still resonate now, 25 years on? And [00:17:00] I was thinking about it. It is about the hopes and the dreams. Um, why do you think Matt's story still resonates? Well, there's, there's, as Dennis often says, there's something about Matt everyone could relate to. Um, he, he was, um, he could have been anybody's son, anybody's neighbor, anybody's child's best friend. Uh, he Blonde haired, blue eyed, white kid, [00:17:30] um, in an iconic location, Wyoming, which is not well known, even in the U. S. Not many people live there, for one thing. The wild, wild west, so to speak. Yeah, the wild west, yeah. And, um, the level of violence was extreme, so the article remained, um, the press remained very interested in Matt's story from beginning to end, and then a lot of creative, um, pieces have been done about him still. So the story, the story remains and, but it's still relevant today, [00:18:00] unfortunately. Hate crimes have grown exponentially in the U. S. since 2016, and so what happened to Matt, even if it's not the exact set of circumstances, hate crimes are definitely on the rise in the States. I explain it this way, Matt was both iconic and exotic. He was iconic in that, you know, he was born in the middle of Wyoming, which is cowboy country. He hunted, he fished, he camped, [00:18:30] he was on, he was on his first horse when he was ten months old. Um, he represented the state by the governor, the governor had him on a commission for recycling, representing all the students. He loved politics. And he was involved with it from the age of seven. He was involved with the theater, both backstage and onstage, from the age of ten. Both the adult community and the university theater. [00:19:00] Um, He wasn't an athlete according to the true definition. He did individual sports because he didn't want teammates to depend on him and disappoint him. So he ran, he swam, things like that. He, uh, wasn't very big, 5 foot 2, 105 pounds. He had braces on when he died, that he got at 13. He died when he was close to [00:19:30] 22. So all of that was the iconic part, you know. The outdoorsman. And he had the indoorsman because he did so much indoors too. And then, uh, the exotic was that we lived in Saudi Arabia. And he went to school in Europe because there were no high schools for Westerners in Saudi Arabia. So he went somewhere else in the world. And all his classmates were from the U. S., Europe, Middle East, Asia. He spoke five languages and was [00:20:00] taking a sixth when he died because he wanted to work for the State Department overseas to try and bring the same what he thought were equal rights and responsibilities to other countries. Uh, compared to the country that he, he was from and loved so much. So you, that's, so everybody, regardless of age and gender or race, religion, they saw something in him that they could relate to themselves or a family member [00:20:30] or a close friend. And that story based along with everything else has come out with the plays and the, and the documentaries and Judy's book and the choral piece. Um, other books by, and music, um, Elton John, uh, Randy Driscoll. Um, all that has kept his story fresh. As Judy said, it's still relevant [00:21:00] today and his story is still relevant because it, it describes everybody. All these young people see something. Reflecting back over the last 25 years of the foundation. What are you most proud of? Well, the biggest piece certainly is, um, we're still here. Again, I don't know that I'm proud of that. We are still here. I sort of wish we had been able to close the doors because things were fixed. In 2015, that's what we're going to do. Yeah. [00:21:30] Then the election 2016 happened. In, uh, 2009, uh, President Obama signed into law the federal hate crime bill named after Matt, Matthew Shepard, James Byrd, Jr. hate crime prevention act, and probably that's the one piece that will just be there forever. Uh, and what happened to James Byrd and Matt certainly illustrated why we needed to expand hate crime laws in the U. S. Um, so I think I'm most proud of that particular [00:22:00] accomplishment that we were part of. I'm proud of that also, but I'm also proud of the fact that President Biden recognized Judy, uh, three weeks ago, giving her the, uh, Medal of Freedom, you know, the Medal of Freedom for her work all these years, Presidential Medal of Freedom.

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TITLE: Grant Robertson - on his retirement as an MP
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VOICES: Grant Robertson
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; 2020s; ARISE Church; Alf Kaiwai; Amy Satterthwaite; Aotearoa New Zealand; Ashraf Choudhary; Barney Frank; Bill Logan; Blenheim; Brian Donnelly; Brian Tamaki; Burnett Foundation Aotearoa; COVID-19 (coronavirus); Campbell Johnstone; Carterton District; Casper's Bar and Cafe; Charles Allan Aberhart; Charles Chauvel; Chris Carter; Christchurch; Civic Square / Te Ngākau; Civil Union Act (2004); Criminal Records (Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences) Act 2018; Denis Aberhart; Des Smith; Destiny Church; Douglas Jenkin; Dunedin; Evangelical Christianity; Georgina Beyer; Glen Bennett; Grant Robertson; Hagley Park; Harvey Milk; Helen Clark; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Icebreakers; Internet MANA; John Jolliff; Kerry Price; Krazy Knights (Wellington rugby team); Lea Tahuhu; MMP (mixed-member proportional electoral system); Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Maryan Street; Matt Soeberg; National Party; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand First; New Zealand Labour Party; Otago; Parliament buildings; Posie Parker; Posie Parker counter protest; Presbyterian; Prostitution Reform Act (2003); Rainbow Labour Caucus; Rainbow Room; Rainbow Youth; Ramon Maniapoto; Scott Kennedy; Shanan Halbert; Springbok rugby tour (1981); TJ Perenara; Tim Barnett; Tom Daley; Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); UniQ; University of Otago; Wellington; Wellington Central electorate; acceptance; celebrant; church; civil unions; community sport; diversity; education; equality; expungement; free speech; gay; gay panic defence; hate crime; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; hope; inclusive guidelines in sport; inclusive space; intersex; marriage equality; picnic; politics; provocation defence; rugby; sex work; soccer; social media; sport; tolerance; transgender; vigilance; visibility
DATE: 2 April 2024
YEAR: 2024
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: At the time of his retirement from national politics, Grant Robertson reflects on his time in Parliament. Grant began working at Parliament in 2001, before becoming a Member of Parliament in 2008. He would go on to become the Minister of Finance and Deputy Prime Minister. Grant retired from national politics in March 2024.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: April 2024
TEXT: [00:00:00] So Grant, thank you so much for Um, coming in doing this, uh, audio interview today about, uh, your time in Parliament as a Rainbow politician. My first question is, after so many years in Parliament, uh, doing your valedictory a couple weeks ago and then packing up over the last couple weeks, is that a strange feeling? Very, really odd. Um, it's sort of at two levels, I think. The first of those is that [00:00:30] I'm pleased to be going to my new job. I think it's time for me to finish. I think the new job I'm going to at Otago University will be interesting and challenging and exciting, but I'm also sad As well, because this has been such a big part of my life. Um, you know, I first came to work in this building here in May 2001. I had a couple of years away in the middle, but up really the last two decades of my life have been about this job and this role. And so, um, I think [00:01:00] it's probably natural to feel sad. I'm also leaving from a group of colleagues. We're currently sitting in the Labour leader's office, um, slightly camped out in his office when he's not here. And that, uh, you know, that feeling of leaving a group of people that you've worked with for a long time and they are sad. And so it's just such a tumult of emotions and in picking our up here in Wellington as well. So I definitely find myself. [00:01:30] Feeling quite, quite odd. Yeah, quite strange. What, what drew you to politics in the first place? I think I grew up around it and in the sense of politics with a small P in that my mother in particular was quite a political person and we talked about political issues at home. So, you know, the Springbok tour or the anti nuclear movement or whatever it was, was the issue of the day, was the subject of discussion. And my mother had a [00:02:00] a brand of her own politics, which were, you know, certainly left leaning. And my father was probably slightly more center right, although over his life. moved more to the left, unlike a lot of people. But that, you know, there was a lot of political discussion. My grandfather had, my mother's father had been a candidate for the Labour Party in the 1950s, although by the 1990s he'd ended up in the National Party, which was all very strange. Um, so, but there was a lot of politics around. And I [00:02:30] think particularly as the fourth Labour government came into power in 1984, 40 years ago this year, um, I felt You know a bit about politics seeping into kind of what I was doing And I think if you talk to my high school friends you'll find that I was a bit unusual that I was interested in in politics and then eventually got to university and Got involved in student politics and it sort of all rolled on from there When you think about the last 40 [00:03:00] or so years, I mean there has been such incredible social change and, and, and just, you know, for both of us, I think we're of a similar age, just how, um, that change in terms of, rainbow legislation has been extraordinary. Isn't that we were to be doing this interview in the rainbow room, which is one of the select committee rooms in parliament. And I talked about this in my valedictory speech that one of the things I'm really pleased about that room is that it has the front pages of the legislation that's been passed for rainbow communities or with [00:03:30] rainbow communities. On the back wall. And it's a real education, you know, 1986 being law, homosexual law reform and aging us both. But I was in the fourth form at high school and, you know, I was very aware of that debate, um, for lots of different reasons. And, you know, I think as you get older time telescopes, doesn't it? But for me, that doesn't seem that long ago, but 40 years is actually a very long time. I mean, 40 years before 1984 was. the end of the Second World War. [00:04:00] So, you know, if you think about the time gap, um, perhaps we should, we shouldn't be surprised and we should be, have an expectation that this is the progress that we have made over that time. But as you well know, it was hard fought progress over that period of time, but yeah, absolutely enormous social change. So what are your memories of law reform? Well, in 1986 or 85 probably, um, I was an active member of a [00:04:30] Presbyterian Church youth group and my parents were at the time both elders in the Presbyterian Church and so our whole life, our social life, everything was geared around the church and it was a Big topic of conversation within the church. And I have one very specific memory, which his memories are may or may not be completely accurate, but I'm pretty sure it is, um, of a, of a picnic day for the church. I think with other churches and we were [00:05:00] building rafts and there's a lagoon in Dunedin and we were sailing rafts on the lagoon. It was hilarious and fun. And someone was circulating the anti law reform petition at this event. And I remember it caused a huge row and it caused a row at home because my, I don't, I think, Both my parents were probably supportive of homosexual law reform, but my father thought it was fine that the petition was being circulated at a church youth group event, and my mother was appalled by this, and I [00:05:30] have a very vivid memory of that. I was sort of coming to terms with who I was at that point. I probably hadn't quite said I'm gay to myself out loud, but I I had feelings, I was sort of aware of it, and I clearly was because several years later when I moved out of home I found I'd clipped out of the newspaper, um, the voting record on homosexual law reform, so, yeah, but I was too young to have [00:06:00] experienced the actual, you know, events that surrounded it. Um, and I remember by, if you fast forward 10 years, I was here in Wellington and I went to the 10th anniversary event, which was here in Parliament down in the Grand Hall. And that was quite an occasion, um, for a whole lot of reasons that probably aren't worthy of our time here, but, um, put it this way. Some of the, some of the sores of the campaign was still open and people, there was quite a lot of interesting tension in the air [00:06:30] about it. And it was, of course, you know. 10 years was only 10 years and there was still a lot more to do. But yeah, so I, I kind of caught up with some of the bits of the campaign that I was too young to know about. At the time of you growing up and, and kind of moving through college and then university, were there any kind of, uh, support groups for, for rainbow people or youth groups? There were latterly. So, I mean, my, my sort of journey was that, You know, through high [00:07:00] school, I obviously worked out that I was gay and I went to a single sex boys school and I played rugby and I sort of didn't really quite fit the mold and on, on either side. And so I re I was struggled with it and I told a few friends and that didn't go very well. And so I, I didn't really have any kind of formal support network. I didn't meet some gay people through those years who were kind of, I guess, uh, Kind of an informal support network, but where that change [00:07:30] was when I got to university and there were groups there I eventually Flattered with the guy that ran icebreakers in Dunedin and yet I can tell by your reaction that you remember icebreakers Which was a group to assist people with coming out and it ran all over the country I can't I wouldn't be able to tell you who'd started it or how it began But anyway, it was a it was around I knew people who are in it By the time I sort of was at university and I was out, um, there was a lot more [00:08:00] around to support, support us. And then something I'm extremely proud of actually is that when I fast forwarding a little bit further to when I was the president of NZUSA, the New Zealand University Students Association co president, um, we brought in place, What is called UniQ, which still exists. And we started that in 1996 off the back of a project that Matt Soberg did. And I'm sure you know Matt, um, who sadly isn't with us any longer. And, [00:08:30] and Matt did this amazing piece of work. And the outcome of one of his recommendations was the establishment of this network around the country of support groups for queer students. And. Yeah, I love it. When I go into university orientations now and see that nearly 30 years on UniQ still there. So we obviously were. That's interesting. Just thinking about the kind of, I guess, the long tail of legislative change. So you've got homosexual law reform, 85, 86, but we're [00:09:00] talking, you know, five, 10, 15, 20 years later that that kind of societal change happens. It's fascinating, isn't it? We used to talk about, um, Charles Chevelle, when he was an MP, he used to talk about the attitudinal agenda. So you kind of have the legislative agenda, which is making that change that you need to make. from a rights basis, and that is the foundation of being able then to move forward. But the attitudinal changes don't necessarily come straight away. I mean, I'd argue homosexual law reform was probably just ahead of the curve of the [00:09:30] population, really. Only just, but you know, just ahead of where the population was. Similar with civil unions, and I think civil unions facilitated marriage equality. But it takes time. You know, I'm, I'm a marriage celebrate now. Um, and I did, uh, a wedding for a lesbian couple recently and I can't, it was just so many people at that wedding coming up saying this is our first gay wedding. You know, and they were kind of quite excited to be there. But you know, like, if you think about it, it takes a [00:10:00] long time for people's lives that aren't intimately affected by a piece of legislation to necessarily run into it. You know, and I think that's the thing that, And sometimes attitudes can harden. And I'm sure we might come back to this later in the interview, but also, um, being vigilant. Um, you recorded Des and John out in the city the other day. And I just thought it was a really interesting thing where John talked about visibility and vigilance. And then just within a week of that, We had Brian [00:10:30] Tamaki and his lot, um, painting over rainbow crossings. You always take the wisdom of John and Dez. So thinking back to the 1990s and we are still quite close to homosexual law reform, when you decided to start getting into kind of more national politics, did you find there was any overt or maybe, um, Homophobia on the quiet. I mean, did you? Yeah, it's an interesting one, isn't it? Like, I was very conscious when I, so I came to work here at [00:11:00] Parliament in 2001. And I was conscious then that, you know, we had MPs like Chris Carter and Tim Barnett by that stage in caucus, Georgie. Um, and it was, I was always just a little bit conscious that it existed, you know, and there is. a challenge for mainstream political parties, parties of government, if you like, there are a million issues that you could be taking up and what ones you choose to take [00:11:30] up and what timing you have for that is a really big political decision. So there was often, I, I got little kind of feelings every now and then from some people that perhaps they weren't that thrilled that, you know, This bit of legislation was this far up the agenda. And should that really be our focus and so on? And every now and then that would spill over. Um, I was very fortunate that I, my involvement in the Labour Party and then in turn and becoming an MP was here in Wellington Central. And, you know, I remember one of [00:12:00] my friends once joked, it's the only electorate in the country where it's an advantage to be gay. Um, I don't think that's quite true, but you know, like I think, I think it, it was never an issue. here locally ever, um, which was great. Then subsequently, when I did run to be the leader of the party and by the stage where, you know, 2013, 2014, there's no doubt that in the first campaign, particularly in 2013, it was an issue. Um, and it was raised in different ways, some, some overt, some [00:12:30] covert, but clearly an issue. Um, that was the, you know, is New Zealand ready for a gay prime minister? Yes. Now, of course, and you know, like the stupidity of that even being a question, but you know, I have this memory of that. So the 2013 labor leadership campaign, we did like about 12 or 13 public meetings around the country with labor members. And we did one down 2013, and I remember I felt quite pleased with how it performed that night. [00:13:00] I thought I gave a really good speech and I answered the questions well, I got a good reaction from the audience. And there was this couple, gay couple who came up to me who I knew and said, Oh, you were so good. You were wonderful. And then just sort of, as we were, you know, Oh, we're not actually going to vote for you, though, to be the leader of the Labour Party. And I said, sorry. And they said, oh, we just, we're just not sure that, you know, for Labour, having a gay leader would be good for us and blah, blah, blah. And I was, you know, devastated by that because clearly there was an internalization [00:13:30] of homophobia there that, you know, is hard to break. I think that's one of the saddest things. Um. For me as well, in terms of how things can get reduced down so very quickly into, you're just gay. Or for instance, if you're walking down the street, you're just a fag. And you can do the most amazing things in your life. And still to some people, you're just Yeah, I know. Isn't it extraordinary? And, and not, I think there's two parts of that that make [00:14:00] me sad. One is just The fact that people will judge you that way. And I mean, I skipped over it, but in, in 19, I'll get my years wrong. 95, I always can remember by where I'm living. Yes. 1995. I was out with two girlfriends one night and we came out of Casper's and I got this guy just punched me in the face and called me a faggot. And you know, like he was eventually arrested. The whole thing was very weird, but you know, so there's that manifestation of it where it can be. [00:14:30] Just horrendous. But I also think the other side that just makes me sad is that we don't embrace people's diversity. And I make this, I've talked about this probably with you more than once. I don't like the word tolerance, because to me, the word tolerance sounds like you're putting up with something, you're tolerating it. Whereas I think as a country, we will be so much better off if we embrace diversity and be there. Sexuality, or gender, or race, or whatever it is. [00:15:00] And that kind of makes me even sadder, that yeah, you can be pigeonholed, you can be boxed up. And, in many ways, I guess that's one of the things I've tried to do over the years, is not allow that to happen too much for me. And even right at the end of being a minister for years, Every now and then it would pop up saying, is Grant Robertson really gay? You know, this kind of thing. It's like, so, you know, it's sort of, I've tried in a way to be the opposite of, you know, I was in the crazy nights and the gay rugby team that started here, [00:15:30] tried to be a part of trying to break some of those stereotypes down, but you're absolutely right. It's, it's really sad that people can't judge a whole person and, um, well not judge, but you know, except a whole person, but rather judge them for one aspect And this is, I think, is where people like, say, Georgina Beyer come in, because actually the stuff that she had to deal with and the fact that she rose above that and, and became such a hugely productive member of [00:16:00] society, both nationally and internationally. I mean for me, she's a hero. How do you feel about Georgie? I feel, I feel similarly. I gave a, uh, eulogy, which I'm sure you recorded at, um, at her, um, her memorial service. And, and I reflected the mixed relationship that Georgie and I had because she was one of the people who said New Zealand wasn't ready for a gay prime minister, you know, and it was so, I tried to tell that story as sensitively as I could on the night, because I [00:16:30] wanted to tell it because to me, it said something about Georgie in that, You know, she, she was reflecting that baggage that she had carried for her whole life. And I think I did tell the story on the night of the fact that years later when she was in here having coffee one day and she was very sick. And she, you know, she came over and he kind of welled up with tears and said, I'm really sorry about the fact that I said that. And I was trying to be sympathetic [00:17:00] to her. And I said, Oh, well, you were probably right at the time, Georgie, there was a lot of reluctance. She went, Oh girl, I know I was right, but I'm sorry. I see that. It was just like, but you know, yeah. So. I have, I do have that mixed emotion about Georgie, but then on the other hand, she was an extraordinary individual. Like being, working in here with her, you saw examples of her charisma, of her, um, resilience, [00:17:30] of her stickability, And her, just her ability to do and achieve things, you know, and the things that stand out. I mean, again, I've talked significantly about these in other interviews, but that speech on the prostitution law reform bill was incredible. And I was working for Helen Clark at the time and, you know, it was a, you know, it was a member's bill. It was in Tim's name, but. We were managing it, as you do, [00:18:00] and it was, you know, it was a free vote, so there were Labour MPs voting against it and for it. But we wanted it to pass, obviously, and so there was quite a lot of management of people, and it was right down to the wire. And it was Georgie's speech that made it pass, because, um, there was a Labour MP who was going to vote against and then abstained, and we got it through. By one vote. And it was that speech, the power of that speech that night. And Georgina herself had mixed views about the [00:18:30] legislation, which subsequently became quite negative actually, and then probably more positive later. But the power of doing that. And then obviously the Brian Tamaki rally, where I was standing with her on the steps as a staff member. During the Silver Union Bell and myself and Ramon Maniapoto and a couple of other people were up there holding our rainbow flag and then Georgie just bolted down the steps because she was so upset and angry and we famously walked along the front of that group of people and we're running behind her with our flag trying [00:19:00] to catch up with her. Um, you know, she just had that ability, um, to, to seize a moment. Um, and you know, in some ways I feel There was a sliding doors moment for Georgina, after the 2005 election in particular, where she, you know, she didn't get a ministerial post. She was pretty disillusioned with where things were at, and she was a list MP by that stage because [00:19:30] Um, she kind of had to be slightly convinced to carry on anyway, and I just feel a bit sad because I feel like there was probably more for Georgina to do politically. And then she popped back up a bit later on with Internet Mana, but it didn't go anywhere for her. And then she got very sick. So yeah, but an unbelievably talented individual and someone I was really proud to know, um, we weren't close friends or anything, but we'd always talk to each other when we saw each other. And complex. I love, I [00:20:00] love complex people. I mean, you know, I, I, you know, when people reduce down to either you're this or you're that, but actually she, absolutely. And you know, you talk to those who knew a bit of like Mel and Scotty and them, and they'll, they'll, you know, they loved her to death, but. By golly she could be frustrating and I tried to get that across in that speech that I gave at her memorial service because I wanted to to praise her but also to acknowledge that like us all she's you know flaws and character traits that are [00:20:30] challenging. So what was it like for you at the Destiny Church Rally here in 2004? Because one of the things we do When we look backwards, I mean, history has been written so we can see how it turned out. But at the time we didn't know, did we? No, we didn't. And in fact, even in that moment, we weren't, you know, that. It was very shortly afterwards that I realized that that rally had actually been a positive for the campaign. But in the moment, I definitely didn't feel that way. I've got a couple of kind of memories, obviously the Georgina [00:21:00] one. Um, I remember cause Alf, my partner is not a particularly political person, but he came down that day cause there was a counter rally or whatever. And for him, the really upsetting thing was it was overwhelmingly a Maori group that Brian Bowden and he found there. Extremely confronting and difficult. Um, my friends, uh, Cameron Law and Jeremy Henson, Cameron was very involved in the campaign for civil unions and he met Jeremy that day, met [00:21:30] his now life partner at the counter protest, you know, so I remember there was sort of that, that's in my memory as well. But what I, I remember being appalled and horrified and upset, you know, all of those things. But then, um, And I don't know how quick that was now, but it feels to me like within sort of days, there was a couple of people who had been wavering to New Zealand First MPs, Brian Donnelly, rest his soul, who's passed away, and another New Zealand First MP who's still with us. Um, we're not still with us in Parliament, but still with us. And both of [00:22:00] them, I know that the, uh, protest outside was a factor in them voting for the bill rather than against it. Because they just didn't want to be associated with it. That kind of mob mentality and so yeah, so I think quite quickly I worked out that Mr. Tamaki was one of our secret agents. So one of the things I find with, say, New Zealand politics is that, um, you know, people have differing views, but they [00:22:30] can change. They can change their views, unlike say maybe in the US where it's a lot more kind of black and white. Do you find New Zealand like a fair society in that we kind of can think it, you know, we get presented an argument, we think about it and we can change? I think so, yeah. It's, um, I guess the reason I'm hesitating is I feel like in some senses that, um, we might be becoming less of that society.[00:23:00] And I think some of that is the influence of the U. S. and elsewhere offshore. I've certainly seen examples of people being prepared to change their views over time, um, and A lot of that understanding comes from people's personal interactions. And so where I've seen MPs change their votes, it's more often than not a personal thing. I mean, I mentioned Brian Donnelly before. As part of my work here in the building, I've been [00:23:30] I, I looked after education issues when I worked for Helen Clark in her office, and Brian was an education spokesperson for New Zealand First. He was a former school principal, and I had a lot to do with Brian. Um, and I remember as part of the campaign when we were, Tim Barnett, he was an amazing campaigner. Tim, he'd have a spreadsheet with where everybody was voting, and we, Brian was in this wavering category, and I remember I wrote Brian a letter. Just a personal letter saying, look, Brian, you and I have worked together for quite a long time. You [00:24:00] possibly don't even know that I'm gay, but I am and blah, blah, blah. And here's what matters to me and so on. And we kind of formed this sort of bond and I actually remember, I didn't, I was pretty sure he was going to vote. For the bill because of what had happened with destiny, but I remember sitting in the chamber on the day of the of the bill passing and Brian looking up at me and kind of acknowledging me and I was like, yeah, you've you've you've definitely going to do that. So I've observed it. But I also think that [00:24:30] polarization. I'm, yes, I'm seeing more of, and I think you're absolutely right. There's a line out of a Billy Bragg song called Between the Wars where he says, um, sweet moderation, heart of this nation, desert us not, we are between the wars. And I feel like there's an element of just war. I mean, that's a metaphor, but it's not a Billy song. It's a real thing, but it's a metaphor really for me of, we just, that moderation, I, you know. has [00:25:00] helped us get things over the line. So I think you're right in that sense, but I wonder whether we're going to hang on to it. The 2000s were, again, really significant, significant change under, um, with Helen Clark. Um, we had prostitutional reform, we had civil unions, but we also had the repeal of the provocation defence, which doesn't really get a lot of, doesn't get a lot of attention. But were you involved in that? Um, I was, yeah, [00:25:30] not closely and certainly not as closely as I was in the other ones, but um, you know, the so called gay panic, um, as it was, was a big issue at the time and you, you make a good point that that, that, that. Has sort of slipped through the net in a way. I've, I, I'm trying to recall. I feel like it went through under a crimes act re um, repeal law, review law and probably had a whole of other things that were going on around it. And so it didn't get as much attention, but it was a massive issue. Um, um, gonna [00:26:00] struggle to remember the name of a couple of the high profile. Cases were used, but there was a couple up in Auckland, if I recall. Yeah, no, I wasn't as closely involved, but you're right. It was another achievement that probably should be noted more. It just, um, struck me the other day. We were both down at the Charles Allen Abahat Memorial, uh, 60 years since he was killed in Hagley Park. And the defense of, of the youths was that, oh, he, he had propositioned them. Um, and I was kind of reflecting on that, [00:26:30] that really significant piece of law change that happened. Um, but also the fact that that was 60 years ago and all of these law changes have happened very much, almost in our lifetimes. Is there anything that you would say to Alan now, if you, if you have a chance to, to meet him? Because we live in such different worlds. I know. And I think about that, because it's funny you should say that actually, because at the event itself, I was trying to locate Alan in [00:27:00] my own life, you know, like, so who would he be? In my life, you know, in terms of age, cause what age was he when it happened? He was 30, 31 ish or something like that. I remember thinking so he was born in the sort of 1930s. So he's just slightly older than my parents. Um, but he's not, you know, but not my grandparents generation. Yeah, I think, I mean, far be it for me to have anything to say to him. He had to live his life, but I think, The [00:27:30] more we found out about Alan as we went through this process, the more I think he was actually quite political in his own way. Um, so my involvement in that case was that his great niece, um, came to see me. I knew her a little bit. And she came to see me when the expungement law passed, um, because she, um, wanted the conviction that he had previously to be expunged. And then it just sort of opened up all of this information about his case and how little his family knew. And as you recorded on the day, Dennis, [00:28:00] who was his nephew, talked about the fact that he hadn't been told and only found out years later what had actually happened to him. And I feel like the fact that Alan got the conviction as far as we know, it was because he went to the police station in Blenheim and said, you're arresting all these other. You better arrest me. And I suspect he was slightly better thought of in the community. He came from a good family. I'm doing excellent quote marks. Um, he came from a good family and, you know, [00:28:30] had a good job and so forth. And I think perhaps, you know, to me, that's a very political act at the time to then do that and then be sent. to prison, briefly, albeit. So I think, I'm not sure I've got a lot to tell Alan. I think he was being as political as he probably could be in his day and age. But equally, just the way in which those moments Wrecked people's lives. I'd love would love to be able to tell him and some other people there [00:29:00] is, you know So much has been achieved that that those sorts of moments and if they did occur now wouldn't necessarily be ruining people's lives Having said that as we heard on the day in Christchurch There is still people, you know, being lured to places and having terrible things happen to them. And so, you know, we probably also would want to say to him while it's still not perfect as well. And it's getting back to that whole vigilance thing, isn't it? Very much is, you know, and, and just sort of allowing, not allowing attitudes [00:29:30] in society to kind of turn. backwards like that. And, um, I mean, if I have to chart things in my life, you know, I grew up in the church. I mean, that was my life and in the Presbyterian church, which was a very mainstream church. It was conservative, you know, it had big problems about women becoming ministers and all those sorts of things. But I, it's the growth of the evangelical church that's probably in our lifetime. You know, being the most marked thing about Christianity.[00:30:00] Interestingly enough, you know, Brian Tamaki got 5, 000 people in 2004. He'd be lucky to get a couple of hundred when he's out here, which he regularly is. Um, so I think we've got to be a bit careful, but, but I think the, the crest of the wave of evangelical Christian movements is coming off and they've, you know, rightly too with, um, Aspire? No, what are they called? Um, you know, the, but anyway, the, you know, those big evangelical churches [00:30:30] are starting to. Starting to kind of come off the boil a little bit which you know is interesting in itself But the rump of them is clearly still there and we have to be very vigilant. I think there's a lot more Varies arise for the benefit of the tape arise. I think there's a lot more vocal opposition coming from Rainbow youth a lot of activism coming in because I you know, I think of say the Um, counter protest to Posey Parker here in Wellington, where 4, 000 people in Civic [00:31:00] Square. And this is one of the most interesting things, and it's one of my reflections on leaving politics actually, is that, and I can't tell because I wasn't here 30 but I feel like a very small vocal group can get more attention today, partly to do with social media. And partly to do with the media environment in general. And that it's very confusing for people sometimes to say, well, how big is that group? You know, and I think we kind of, you know, we know with the Posey Parker [00:31:30] stuff, that the group of TERFs that are there supporting that is actually minute compared to the public's overall view. And we saw that with the protests. And I think if you're the trans community, again, one of the reasons I talked about it in my, Valedictory speeches. I think when you're in the eye of the storm, rightly, it's very hard to make assessments of how big things are because it's hitting you. And if it's hitting you, it's hitting you, whether it's 2 percent of the [00:32:00] population or 20%. And we felt this during COVID, you know, like it could feel like everyone was against you. But then when people voted, it was 1, 2, 3, 4%. So I think, I think It's harder to distill all of that nowadays because one of the things that social media has done is allowed people to find their tribe a lot more easily and unfortunately, in this case, it's a tribe of people that you and I might not appreciate, but they have found each other and they themselves gain strength [00:32:30] from that, even if they're not What then about that kind of vexed issue of, um, for me it's not vexed, but, um, free speech. I mean, I mean, how do you, like, how do you deal with that? Yeah, I'm with you. I don't think it's that vexed to be honest. Um, I mean, people obviously have a right to express opinions and so on, but in society we always set boundaries. To rights or if you want to use slightly different language, we put responsibilities [00:33:00] around rights and we've always done there. And so therefore just being able to say any old thing is clearly not okay. And people know that. Uh, and so it's difficult to write into law. Well, that's one thing that's very challenging and we, you know, when we looked at hate speech legislation, it is, it is extremely challenging to write into law, but not impossible by any means. And so that's a kind of an unfinished thing that needs to be worked on. But equally the police, [00:33:30] you know, like I, the other day when, with the Brambo crossings were being padded over, the police said, well, it's a hate crime. Well, they didn't have any difficulty with going, that's what it is. So I think sometimes we. As a society kind of overcomplicate things. I mean, one issue that we do have is that, and I'm about to face this as I go into the university environment, is how we create spaces for discussion. And I do think that's become harder because of the more polarizing thing, you know, and [00:34:00] so you, I want people, this is not, you know, it's by chance I don't do this directly, but I want people to understand the views of the world around them. And that sometimes means having to hear it in order to understand it processes and work out what you do with it. Um, and I think that can be hard for people. And I think there's, there are issues more and more for people just how does that get managed. But, the answer to that is not a wholist, bolist, you can say any odd thing [00:34:30] you want to, because actually you've never been able to, and you shouldn't. This is also coming up in terms of kind of inclusivity in things like sport, and I think you were talking the other day about the inclusiveness in sports guidelines, and, Uh, how, how they are coming under attack now, is it? Yeah, I think it's a dreadful element of the New Zealand First National Party coalition agreement is that there is a review of that, of the guidelines we put in place to [00:35:00] for inclusive um, sporting organisations, um, with a view in their agreement to not funding sporting organizations that effectively adopt those guidelines. It's just the most ridiculous position comes from such a position of ignorance and misunderstanding and prejudice. We put those guidelines in place largely at the request of sporting organizations who were rightly saying, well, you know, we want to be inclusive, but we're not really sure how to do it. And this is a true [00:35:30] story. The Townsville Tennis Club in Australia, um, I wanted to create some guidelines like these because someone showed up, a trans person showed up, wanting to play tennis. And I'm like, what should we do? And so, that's what the guidelines are about. And we developed them exhaustively with groups like Rainbow Youth and others, um, to be able to say, well this is it. No one's being made to do anything with them, but the sports want them because they want to work out how to deal with them. And I [00:36:00] used it, I used the line in my valedictory speech that people who are raising issues about this don't care about sport. Um, and they're, you know, they're, as I said in the speech, warriors for safety against an imagined enemy. I mean, it's, it's so ridiculous. There is a distinction here in the elite sport. The rules of participation are governed largely by an international organisation, over which the government has almost no say, you know, and so the [00:36:30] International Swimming Federation decide. We, we, there's nothing really the New Zealand government can do about whether a trans person can compete in a particular category. Where we have more of a role is in community sport, because we fund that, and um, You know, it's, it's, it's more directly here in New Zealand. And so that appears to be what this group are now chasing down. And I just find that abhorrent, you know, I mean, I think participating in [00:37:00] recreation and sports so important. I've observed in the queer community, just how important it is for people. It's, it's one of those touch points in society where not everyone wants to do sport or recreation, but if you do, it's an amazing way to connect with your community. I remember seeing a documentary a little while back, um, about a trans person here in Wellington who played in a football team. And I think he identifies as a he, and he said on the, on the thing, if I tell my team that's going to be the first thing they know, [00:37:30] you know, I think he did end up telling them, but you know, like for me, it's just, it's such a basic fundamental level of letting people be who they are. If we just all let people be who they are, I think we'll be a lot better off. And I guess that's why it's so important for, um, people when they can, if they want to come out, like we had recently, you know, the first all black coming out as gay. Absolutely, and you need role models, and Campbell [00:38:00] Johnson, who did that, is an amazing guy, and deserves huge credit for it. Obviously. After he'd retired, you know, and so, but still leaning back into that, um, it will be a, it will still be a challenge because of the elite sport environment, particularly in rugby, which very macho kind of sport, um, will be still a challenge for an active player. to come out and talk about themselves. But there are plenty of those people [00:38:30] around, and it's probably only a matter of time in New Zealand it's happened internationally. I think of those moments, say when Campbell came out, and the kind of resonance of those moments, you know, it may be 10, 15, 20 years later that we will see the impact on people. Are there moments that you can think of in your own life that those kind of resonance moments that have happened a long time ago that I mean, the one that springs to mind is one [00:39:00] I've talked about a lot before is homosexual law reform because, you know, like that idea that maybe my life was going to be okay as a teenager. Like I, I had some very dark times as a teenager, as a lot of gay, um, queer people do. And just having people who I could look at and see and think, yeah, it's going to be all right. And the homosexual law reform was sort of part of that. It was like, okay, parliament's voted that this is okay. And this [00:39:30] is important. And then, you know, for me, I was interested in politics. So I, I noticed Chris Carter when he came in as an MP, you know, and I'm aware of how awful things were for him around here when he first came in. Um, and so I, you know, moments Like that are important. I've got other ones like, you know, um, uh, TJ, the all black, you know, being such a vocal critic of what Israel said and wearing rainbow laces and, you know, things like that in that sporting [00:40:00] context are just so, And, you know, just little by little us being way more comfortable with, with the way we talk about that. I remember as sports minister, um, you know, when the, in the White Ferns cricket team, when Amy Settlewhite and Leah Tahu got married and there was a whole, Um, you know, woman's day article. I think it was, you know, where, you know, suddenly, okay, so this is being celebrated. Um, Tom Daley, the work that he's done [00:40:30] as in sport around the Commonwealth and around the world. I think he's British diver. I think he's, I've got a couple of memories of things he did when he came out. Um, you know, that sort of stuff matters a lot. And of course you'll be making memories for other people because you love that. most highly ranked openly rainbow politician we've had in New Zealand. I mean, that's, that's amazing. Yeah, I guess. Um, yeah, I mean, I think one of the things I did [00:41:00] consciously do was as I moved through various roles, Um, finance minister, deputy prime minister, I would always continue to try to accept invitations to do things with the rainbow community because I really did think that mattered. And once a month, maybe even more often than that, I'd get a card or an email from often parents rather than the person themselves, just saying how much it It had meant to them that [00:41:30] I had said something or done something or they'd read a, read something about how I'd gone about my life. And I think, you know, we can all do that. All of us, whether you're a politician or not, you just live your life and you never know who's noticing, who's, who's seeing it, who's, who's being inspired by it. And yeah, I've got a group of. people who've kind of come through the Labour Party younger than me, a number of whom are in the rainbow communities.[00:42:00] And just knowing that I was there, I think helped them, you know, like it helped them think what I can do. And it often wasn't necessarily anything to do with rainbow issues. It was just the fact that I was there and I was doing it. And so, yeah, you know, if that's the impact that it has, then that's terrific. Yeah, I guess I was just actually reflecting back on what Georgina Beyer said that it was a bit of a challenge that she didn't want to be seen as a [00:42:30] transgender mayor or member of parliament. She wanted to be a good member of parliament. And she was both of those things. I think, by the way, that's a really important point. I mean, she's still talked about in Carderton as one of the better mayors that they ever had. And she was an effective member of parliament, albeit, as I said before, I think probably the door closed a a bit soon on her. Yeah, I, I, I just kept going with the things that I was here to do. And, you know, I didn't get into parliament specifically to drive a rainbow agenda, but [00:43:00] the rainbow agenda around fairness and equality squarely fits in my view with the Labour Party's philosophies. And so I'm, Very happy to be a part of those issues and help drive them and support them. But as you know, you know, as I went on finance minister, it's quite a big job. And so had to deal with a lot of different issues. But, um, I think this comes down to a really important aspect of what makes, I think, a good politician is having a really clear value set. [00:43:30] And, you know, I look around the building here and there are people whom I disagree enormously with, but I can also see the values that they are bringing. And then there are people who I find myself agreeing with more, but I'm not always a hundred percent sure about the values and that's the gray areas of life. Maybe as you get a little bit older that you, you can see that, but, but having that value seed for me meant that rainbow issues were always going to be a part of it, regardless of whether I was gay or not, I mean, I obviously can't. [00:44:00] envisaged not being, but I would hope that if I wasn't that the values I hold would still mean that I'd be supportive. And you weren't the only rainbow in the village. I mean, 2020 was, um, it was the queerest parliament in the world. It was such a great place. Um, so what was it like? It was really fun. Um, and that, and to be honest with you, if I'm really frank about it, I, because of my role, I wasn't so involved. So there was a big cross party. Rainbow [00:44:30] Network and Rainbow Labor was very, very active and strong. By then I was the finance minister, so I was trying to help out as I could, but to be frank, I didn't get that closely involved in it all. But you know, it, it certainly helped move things forward here. Um, You know, we've slightly slipped back on representation, and that's interesting. Um, I think a part of that is that the, so MMP is an amazing system for bringing more [00:45:00] diversity, but it also means you're very much at the whim of, of the list process. And so, because we lost a huge number of members, we lost a lot of, you know, then, although they're coming back, both Shannon and Glenn have come back as, as others have retired. But yeah, you just, you know, like I think vigilance, it's really important that, that we get in, you know, getting people into seats where they're, they're safe as well, I think is a good thing. Obviously you have to work hard to make a seat safe, but being the [00:45:30] MP kind of enabled my political career. So what advice would you give to up and coming rainbow politicians? Well, stick to your values. Um, to be perfectly frank, I would give them exactly the same advice I give everyone who wants to run for parliament. Be really clear about why you're running. And if it is because you want to be a champion of the rainbow community, great. Fantastic. But be, you know, come here with purpose. Um, and [00:46:00] that purpose needs to be based on a really strong value set that you have. Um, be empathetic to those around you. I mean, that is the core of being a good politician, I think, is to be empathetic to those around you. And commit yourself to the work that is to be done. Be that in your community, or be that here in Parliament. Um, and be aware that it's not an easy job. And, you know, like, the health warning, as I call it, which is that, is probably [00:46:30] something I've added in over the years, as people have asked me. You know, this job takes a huge toll on people's families. Massive. Because they don't sign up for the job, um, but they caught up in it. It is, uh, a more toxic environment than it was, and that is, we were discussing before, I think. Social media has a fair degree of role in that. Um, and you know, the other issues we've been talking about. So, you've [00:47:00] got to be aware of that and have strategies to manage it. But I will never discourage people from taking on this role, especially people from the rainbow community, because we need that kind of representation. You valedictory, Harvey Milk, And I'm wondering, what other rainbow heroes do you have? Yeah, I mean, Harvey is very much, um, that kind of political hero. And because my career has been in politics, I look at him, I look at Barney Frank, who [00:47:30] was the, um, first out U. S. Senator, um, out of Massachusetts. Really interesting character, Barney. Um, so, you know, he, I followed his career really, really closely here at home, politically. Georgie, Tim, Chris, Marion Street, you know, they were the people who were around me and I'd regard them as heroes in that kind of universe. I tend to be one of those people, this sounds a tiny bit cliched, but I tend to be one of those people who my heroes are [00:48:00] often not big public figures, you know, I think about You know, the people who established the AIDS Foundation in New Zealand, you know, um, I think about, you know, when I first got to Wellington, um, Douglas Jenkin and Kerry Price and people were running NZAF and I was, I was amazed by what they did and I volunteered and got involved because of what I saw them do, Bill Logan, you know, Bill and I have had all sorts of debates over the years about different issues, but I think there's an extraordinary [00:48:30] level of courage in what, you know, and what they all did that, that, that I think is great. Um, I think of some people in the trans community who, you know, have had terrible time, um, who fought. Marnie Mitchell is an absolute hero of mine. Marnie is an extraordinary person, um, who made intersex issues public when almost nobody else was doing that. And Marnie's head. [00:49:00] Huge ups and downs. Um, but such a hero of mine. I've heard other politicians after they've left parliament, um, talking about just the kind of like the, the, the, the come down that, that, you know, the phone, uh, is a lot quieter. The invites are a lot less. How you, I mean, one, is that happening to you and how you, how you coping with that? It's quite soon. So, I mean, at the moment I'm still in the phase where a lot of people are saying very nice things about me, which is lovely. Um, um, I, I [00:49:30] have to say, I think, you know, a lot of people talk about how hard it is, and I can already feel a little bit of that, um, Trying to work out how to kind of reposition myself in relation to politics. Um, you know, do I watch the news? Yes, I guess I do. I've always watched the news, you know, so I've always been interested in current events well before I was a politician. So, of course, I'm going to keep doing that, aren't I? But in doing so, of course, I, Watch and hear and see the things I've been [00:50:00] involved in. I don't want to be all over the people who now have the job here, but I've made clear I'm happy to help them if there's ways that I can do that. But at a kind of emotional level, I'm definitely just working my way through that. Um, I saw a counselor a while back and I remember she said to me that for every year someone is in a stressful role, you need about a month you. To bring yourself out of that. And I thought that's really interesting, you know, like I've been I was [00:50:30] here for 15 years as a politician, six years as a minister, and so probably somewhere in that range, you know, and you can't expect to click your fingers and everything to suddenly be different. I mean, I'm going to have a very big new job from the beginning of July, which I'll have to put a lot of focus on. But yeah, I definitely think I'm in the middle of that. And I, you know, I, I wouldn't be surprised if I have a lot of ups and downs over the next little while. I mean, even just in the last couple of weeks, I remember I woke up on The valedictory was on [00:51:00] Wednesday and I had my final kind of day on Friday and my mother was staying with us still. And, um, I remember waking up on the Saturday or Sunday, one of those days and feeling really kind of, yeah, you know, this is all great. And then even just a few days later, I was kind of feeling a little bit lower. And so I guess that's just how it'll be for a while. What do you want to be remembered for? I hate that question. Not from you. I mean, everybody asks that. [00:51:30] Oh, gosh. I'm not quite there in terms of, you know, I don't, I think it's grandiose to say a politician of any, you know, I mean, I've had 15 years on the political stage, 20 years around here. I think it's grandiose to talk about legacies and stuff. And ultimately other people write those things. What do I want to be remembered for? I want to be remembered as a person who stuck to my values. I want to be remembered as a person who worked hard. Because that's always meant a lot to me. It's a very [00:52:00] Presbyterian, Calvinist kind of upbringing thing. Um, I don't know, it pops into my head. I want to be remembered as somebody who was, um, Kind to people, you know, who was motivated. I was, I am motivated by trying to do good things for people. And so I'd like to be remembered that way, but ultimately you don't write it yourself. You know, even if you write a book or whatever, you don't, you still, ultimately, if anyone is ever writing about me or thinking about me in years to [00:52:30] come, it'll, it'll be colored by all kinds of things that I can't control. I apologize for that question. No, you don't have to. It was so obvious. You don't have to apologize for it. Everyone asks that. I know. But yeah, yeah. Um, so, um, okay, then my last question will be, um, so, um, a message, a message to you rainbow communities in terms of, um, achieving your dreams. Yeah, great. That's a really good question. I'm going to start with [00:53:00] John Jolliffe's words the other day. You know, I think there's a lot in what he said about being visible and vigilant. Um, if you want to achieve things, you've got to be out there. You've got to be doing things. Now, being out there doesn't mean everyone has to be holding the megaphone. Being out there is Being the person who records the history being out there is the person who makes sure that the person with the megaphone is looked after or being present. Um, [00:53:30] so, but, so it doesn't mean you have to shout from the rooftops, but it does mean you've gotta put forward your best self to be a part of what you do on the vigilance side. I just think that's where we are right now today, and I feel like. There's a very important element of that. Anyone who watches us politics, us current events, we'll see what could happen. And so we, we can't allow that. But my overall message is the one I, I know it's [00:54:00] corny, but it's the one I tried to leave in the speeches of hope, because we go right back to the start of this interview. If I think about my lifetime and the extraordinary progress that's being made, blood, sweat, tears, everything that went into it. You've got to be hopeful that we can keep doing that. And we can keep making progress and keep nudging forward and keep doing the right things that allow our communities to all thrive. And so I'm hopeful. And that's my main message [00:54:30] is keep hope alive. Keep thinking about what you can do on the weekend. I have, we had dinner with some friends and, um, Their son has just gone to Otago University and he was listening to his parents and me, you know, have our great memories of them. And at one point I stopped and I said to him, you need to be really careful of old people because we edit our memories and we, we focus [00:55:00] on, you know, the fun stories and all of that. The struggles is, is, is as important as the success. And there's an old American civil rights saying, you know, keep your eyes on the prize, keep your mind on the struggle. And maybe that's my advice.

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TITLE: InsideOUT Kōaro at Out in the City (2024)
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VOICES: Julia de Bres; Karen O'Leary; Tabby Besley; Tobias Kenny; Val Little
INTERVIEWER: Karen O'Leary
TAGS: 2010s; 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Christopher Luxon; Gaza; InsideOUT Kōaro; Julia de Bres; Karen O'Leary; Make It 16: Lower the Voting Age; Michael Fowler Centre; Out in the City (Wellington); Relationships and Sexuality Education Guide; Shift hui; Tabby Besley; Thistle Hall; TikTok. com; Tiriti o Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi; Tobias Kenny; United Kingdom; United States of America; Val Little; Wellington; Wellington Pride Festival (2024); broccoli; education; funding; gender neutral bathrooms; genocide; government; hate; hate speech; hīkoi; inclusive guidelines in sport; instagram. com; legal rights; petition; puberty blockers; queer joy; queerphobia; resource; school; self care; takatāpui; television; transgender; transphobia
DATE: 17 March 2024
YEAR: 2024
LOCATION: Michael Fowler Centre, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: As part of Out in the City 2024, the team from InsideOUT Kōaro held a panel discussion in the main auditorium of the Michael Fowler Centre. The panel was led by MC Karen O'Leary. Thanks to the organisers and and participants for allowing this to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2024
TEXT: It is my absolute pleasure to introduce some people, some amazing people from inside out. And that obviously is Tabby, Tobias, Julie and Val who are going to come out and answer some hard hitting questions that I've got on a piece of paper. Come on out guys. Now look, I've been given beautiful, um, bios for all of you. Um, but I feel like I'd much rather hear you guys introduce yourselves in the way that you want to introduce yourselves. But don't leave out any of the cool stuff that I've got written on my piece of paper. Okay, Tabby, you [00:00:30] start with an amazing intro for yourself. No pressure. Yeah, no pressure. Kia ora tātou, ko Tabby Besley tōku ingoa. I'm the Managing Director at Inside Out, kuaro a ishi her pronouns. Today I am dressed as a broccoli. Um, it's a promotion for our, um, Broccoli x Queer Joy exhibition that closes at Thistle Hall today. So, after you're finished here, head on down to Thistle Hall and see Celebrate your queer joy with broccoli. Why broccoli? You'll have to go along to find out. I'm intrigued. Uh, what else? [00:01:00] Um, I grew up between England and Whakatū Nelson, um, now live in the beautiful Te Awa Kairangi. Um, yeah, been doing the inside out thing for the last decade plus. Very lucky. And I also work as a counsellor in, um, rainbow communities as well. Yeah. Thank you, Tobias, over to you. Sure. , um, called Tobias Aho. Um, my name's Tobias. Um, I use he, him he pronouns. Um, I [00:01:30] UA on my mother's side and on my father's side, a little saffron farming village in the, um, north of Greece called, uh, ko. Um, I am the volunteer and community engagement coordinator at Inside Out Koaro. Been in my role for about three years, before that I was a volunteer for five years, and then before that Inside Out was helping me get a QSA at my school. Um, yeah, kia ora. I'm also studying at, um, Victoria University doing Te Reo Māori and Anthropology. Woo! [00:02:00] Yeah, woo! Um, kia ora koutou. Um, my name is Val. I use she, her, they, them pronouns. Um, I am a recent addition to Inside Out as the working as the schools coordinator for Te Ipuku o Te Ika. So covering the Wellington um, um, And Wairarapa, um, areas. I've only been there for three weeks, I think, so, um, I won't be asked, answering any difficult questions about what I actually do. Actually, well, I've got seven here with your name [00:02:30] next to them, Val, so. Um, yeah, so I, I am a first generation Tauiwi, um, with Welsh and Scottish, um, Ancestry, uh, and I live in Paikakariki with my beautiful wife, who's sitting down here, uh, with our dog and cat. Uh, we run the Paikakariki Pride Festival on, uh, Labour Weekend every year, so come up. It's the most wholesome, beautiful little pride festival. Uh, [00:03:00] what else? I'm an elder. How did that happen? Jeez. Um, so yeah, been out forever, um, and seen a lot of, uh, I guess, and here we are again, seeing more. It's awful, but anyway, um, my goal by the end of this year is to have a revolution. And a t shirt that says the queers are revolting. Anyway, I'm gonna stop talking and pass it on, and it's lovely to see everybody. Kia ora, I'm Julia DeBress. I am a [00:03:30] former board member of Inside Out, but I still like to hang around them, as you can see. Um, I'm also a lecturer at Massey University, um, and my research focuses on family support of trans kids. Um, I'm queer, my partner's queer, my kid's queer, there's a lot of queerness in our family and, um, Um, yeah, so I guess that's what brought me into that research area and I'm super passionate about supporting families to support their kids in a difficult environment. I'm also a moderator of the main national [00:04:00] support group for parents of trans kids, um, New Zealand Parents and Guardians of Transgender and Gender Diverse Children. Thank you. Kia ora. Um, well, thank you so much for being here to talk to us and to answer, like I said, my very hard hitting questions that you provided for me to ask you. Um, so you probably should know the answers, I'm presuming. Rosie, who's not here, provided the questions. Oh, right, okay. Great work, Rosie. The first one is, what's your star sign? Oh, I love that question. We have to do that one. Oh, you want to do it? Yeah. What's your star sign? You're messing with the wrong [00:04:30] person when it comes to astrology. We could have a guess if you want. Yeah. So if we just have a No one that knows me. No one that knows can guess. If you don't know this person, on the count of three, shadow what star sign you think they are. One, two, three. Two Pisces. Incorrect. No, but I do have my Mars and Pisces. Um, Taurus, Sun, Aries, Moon, Cancer rising. You can only choose one. No, you can't. Okay, right, all of those ones. So you could have [00:05:00] chosen many if you got the right, the right one. Tobias, what about you? I'm an Aquarius. That's the song about that. Do you know how to sing that song? No. Okay, good. Um, Val? I'll give you a clue. Taurus. Oh, wow. Yes, I've got that one. I've got more points than you guys. Sorry, what? Sagittarius? I don't know if I know any Sagittarius's. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. There's a Sagittarius. Okay. Okay, have we, has anyone done any research to find out whether there are [00:05:30] actually equal numbers of all the star signs? There aren't. There aren't, are there? Because there's been more, whatever September is. Yeah, there's more, um, Libras and Scorpios. Yeah, right. Okay, nine months from Valentine. Without even being on track, we're already off track, so. But what's yours? Mine? It's obvious. Jim and I? Who said that? Yes. Yeah. Very obvious. I am a Jim and I. Yeah, well done. Alright, now look. We mustn't dilly dally. We've only got a certain amount of time, three hours we've allowed for this conversation, so let's [00:06:00] get, and you guys can't leave, the doors are locked. No, they're not. Um, alright, so for people that don't know, and I'm sure lots of people do know, but maybe some people don't know, who would like to just give us a brief overview, or an in depth overview, of um, what your work actually involves? I can give the over overview and then the others might like to chip in a little bit extra about what they do. But, so for Inside Out Koaro, we're a national charity. Our vision is to support all rainbow and takatapui young people to have a sense of safety and belonging in their schools and [00:06:30] communities. Uh, we've been doing that since 2012. Lots of work still to go. Um, We often talk about our work in like four key areas, so schools and education is a really big focus of what we do. So we have schools coordinators that go into every region of the country to provide that support on the ground. Education for workplaces, so we do training on rainbow competency in a range of workplaces for mental health and addiction services and consultation to help them with policies and things like that. And then we [00:07:00] do lots of, um, advocacy work, so trying to, yeah, feed into kind of social policy changes, legislation, um, just make things better for our communities, um, and also youth development, um, programs, which I'll let Tobias talk a bit more about. Yeah, Kia Ora. Um, so we have a wonderful little volunteer program, um, which is sort of one of the ways that we do youth development. So we, um, offer volunteering opportunities to, uh, rainbow people age 15 to 27. Um, [00:07:30] so we consider rainbow youth. Um, we go a little bit older than some, uh, people may consider youth, um, cause we know that um, Rainbow people, um, often have experiences of realizing that they're rainbow, um, a little bit later in life. So we like to sort of, um, make some room for that. Um, we have other things like Shift Hui, um, which is a national hui for Rainbow Rangatahi, um, for a weekend. We bring together a bunch of young rainbow, um, young people and, um, put them up in a marae and we've got activities, we've got workshops, we've got just [00:08:00] like safe connection and lots of wholesome stuff. Super duper. Anyone else want to chip in with anything else? I think Tabby's covered the schools coordinator role, yeah? Uh, so yeah, just making sure that the schools are safe. In terms, can I just butt in with a question of my own? In terms of schools, and obviously what's happening with our current delightful government, and I, that was, do I have to what? I didn't vote for them. But I, obviously, I'm just wondering, especially in terms of, Um, [00:08:30] schools and for that to be encouraged and for schools to be, you know, saying we want you. Of course, we want you to be here is what's happening with our government going to affect that in any way. Tabby probably knows more about that, but I would expect so I think some schools would back off. Um, but then I think some schools might come forward and go. No, we want involved in this stuff. So it's yeah, it's hard to really to gauge time will tell. Time will tell. Yeah. Um, I think something that's really [00:09:00] useful there is also the resources that Inside Out has already made. You know, Inside Out is a really amazing source of information for things like your kids rights at school, legal rights of young trans people, your own rights, um, and those kind of, whether or not, um, that reflects official government aspirations. Um, you know, our legal rights are, um, Uh, enshrined, and often schools might, um, try to, you know, if they're not on the right side of history, shall we say, say that, um, you know, people [00:09:30] can't do certain things, aren't allowed to do certain things, but in fact we do know that, you know, there's support out there for what people need, um, for their, their gender affirmation or sexuality at school that is, you know, protected by law, and often the issue is people don't know where to find that information, so I always send people to Inside Out's website to, you know, get the backing they need when they can't always count on getting it from the Um, as well as when, um, I was at high school and, um, my school was doing some stuff that was not [00:10:00] technically allowed, um, Inside Out was really supportive, um, and helped me get some movement, um, within my school. So Inside Out can support anything, um, that your, your young people may need at school. So you can, so the, the young people themselves can access the support, not, it doesn't have to come through the school, obviously, which is, yeah. Do you wanna name the school, your school, your old school? Nope, I know which one it was. I won't say it though. Um, so now obviously we just talked about that, you know, touched on obviously one of the potential challenges. But what would you [00:10:30] say are some of the, you know, the key challenges that you have in sort of in, in doing the mahi that you do? Yeah, right now definitely the government is probably the biggest one. It makes it, you know, it feels like we're fighting for things not to get worth, not to go backwards rather than progressing our rights. And kind of that's the strategy over the next few years is, okay, how do we fight this to ensure that, yeah, those, the RSC guidelines do stay in schools and trans women can continue to participate in community sports and things like this. So, [00:11:00] um, yeah, that's very frustrating when over the last, uh, Yeah, a few years before this, you know, we've been making really good progress. Um, definitely the education stuff is really big, big for us and a really key message that we have for schools is that, uh, the relationships and sexuality education guidelines were only guidelines to start with. So that's why not all schools already teach amazingly about the queer. community as they, you know, as the guidelines kind of say that they should. Um, so it means even if they do replace [00:11:30] them, uh, schools don't actually have to follow that because they're not mandated. Um, and we're really hoping schools that are already doing great and amazing in this area will just continue, um, to do that. And when we have a new government again, we will sort it out again. Um, but in the meantime, we'll be working hard to, yeah, to prevent, um, more conservative guidelines from coming in place. Um, I think also funding is a big challenge, um, particularly at the moment. A lot of our government funding comes up for review next year, which is very scary with the current government. Um, and [00:12:00] so yeah, that's a very terrifying possibility. So any support, um, in that way is always helpful. Um, I think, um, just general struggles that are facing us is, um, The rise in transphobia, um, and transphobic extremism, um, last year we saw like a record number of people commenting on our social media, um, with terrible transphobic things, um, and just, yeah, the, the, some of the harassment that some of our staff have been facing is [00:12:30] pretty terrible, I think as well, the, um, The, uh, this sort of dovetails with a question that we've got coming up, but, um, the struggles that, um, certain parts of our communities are facing, like our Takatāpui communities, um, I think the, the degradation of, um, government protections of Te Tiriti, um, are really affecting, um, Takutapoi communities, which as a whole means that the general well being of our rainbow communities are sort of, um, [00:13:00] affected because we know that what is good for Takutapoi, what is good for Māori is good for all of us. Um, and I'll just add that I think with the current climate that we've got, Not just here, but globally, that people are emboldened to say really awful things now, and I feel like we need our allies more than ever before. So I think that's a really important part of our mahi as well as to make sure that there's people, not just queer people, standing up to this stuff, but our allies are there [00:13:30] too. Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking about the international context as well. We have our local context, but that is, um, also influenced by the, the broader international context, what's happening in the UK with gender affirming care and so on. Should be something that's just happening in the UK, but because we, I guess because we are still, uh, A colonized nation, then people pay more attention to what's happening in the UK than they need to because we can, we do things differently here and we can keep doing that, we should, um, so I think [00:14:00] there's the challenge of trying to assert, yeah, that New Zealand is and can be a rainbow inclusive country and just because things are getting worse elsewhere doesn't mean we need to be, yeah, following that line. And what about the, the kaupapa that you would say are closest to your heart at the moment? Broccoli. Broccoli person forward. Um, that brings a good point though, which is finding that joy amongst all the difficulties and the challenges that we've been going through. That [00:14:30] has been important to me, um, and to our team. Particularly with what we, yeah, the hate kind of we were receiving last year was to find ways to be silly, um, and to be joyful with each other. Have some distraction, whether that be broccoli or something else from, um, all the difficult stuff. So that's absolutely important. Um, definitely this, yeah, the, the coalition agreement, what's going on with the government and the education and sports stuff in particular. Um, and then yeah, thinking about these, um, [00:15:00] yeah, all these other issues that are affecting people. Um, when we look at, yeah, the attack on Te Tiriti o Waitangi or, um, what's You know the changes they're wanting to make for beneficiaries or the use justice system and all these things We can't look at any of them alone because they all you know Our communities are part of all of those communities and will be affected So yeah, I think I'm rambling now, but oh super good rambling super important. Um, yeah, we're not seeing it as like Only these [00:15:30] two things in the coalition agreement affect us. But for instance, most of that affects our communities. And so how can we, yeah, stand in solidarity with those other movements as well as internationally with what's happening, um, this week, just the NHS in the UK, you know, banning puberty blockers. Um, and then of course the horrific genocide in Gaza right now and how we can support, um, indigenous people around the world with what they're going through. Um, absolutely agree. I think all oppression is linked and, [00:16:00] you know, none of us are free until all of us are free. So I think, um, focusing on just like, small parts of what's going on, I think, misses the bigger picture. So I think some of the ones that, I mean, all of the, you know, horrific, um, human rights and violations that are happening right now are really sort of, um, weighing on, I think, most of us. But, um I think definitely Toitū, Te Tiriti, Mana Takutāpui and Free Palestine are sort of the ones that are taking up a lot of room in my brain and heart.[00:16:30] I have nothing to add, just tautoko. Um, about, yeah, things that are closest to your heart. I guess I always come back to, um, my, my whole kaupapa around family support and support of each other in general. That, um, you know, if we need to, we need to find the joy in our lives and we also need to support ourselves through these, these more difficult times. And so I feel like, um, it's, yeah, it's really vitally important that everyone finds what they need to do to help them feel better and okay, um, In the [00:17:00] face of things like transphobia, um, and we have, yeah, we all have, have our different things, but, um, there's just, you know, it's kind of a long game we're playing, and if we don't look after ourselves and each other, then we're likely to burn out, we're, we're not even, are we six months into the new government, you know, um, so, I think that's, yeah, that's close to my heart, now I know I need that to, to keep fighting myself. And what about, could you speak a bit about, please, would you be so kind to speak a bit about how Inside Out is supporting other social justice [00:17:30] movements? Yes. Uh, I think it's something we try to be conscious of all the time. So, for example, using our social media platform and following to uplift other kaupapa that are important. Um, things like taking part in the Wellington Pride Hikoi last weekend, um, across those different movements, um, and us, um, Some of our staff may or may not have stayed up till 2 or 3 a. m. making a beautiful sign that said None of us are free until all of us are free. Um, yeah, so, um, [00:18:00] showing up in those, like, really visible ways. Um, we're also, yeah, really, um, passionate about supporting young people with their ideas and movements. So, for example, um, maybe two years ago now we had, um, we supported a group of students, um, who were doing a petition to parliament around gender neutral bathrooms. And so Um, yeah, we offered to come on board and kind of support them through that process and able, were able to bring them down to Wellington to do that kind of handover to Parliament, um, of their petition, which is really cool. Did they get their toilet? [00:18:30] No. But you were still there trying to help them, which is the main thing. And just, yeah, I think showing them that they do have a voice and there is a way for them to engage with that system. Unfortunately, yeah, the select committee report didn't come back saying, um, Cool, there's a new thing, just kind of being like, Oh yeah, we already think we do enough of it. So that was bad, so we need to keep, keep fighting it. Um, things like the Make It 16 campaign, uplifting, putting in submissions for that, um, seeing, you know, again, that would, that would really help if we had lots more young [00:19:00] people voting, we'd get a much more queer friendly government. Maybe we should put a cap on how old you can be when you vote. Like, you have to retire from voting. If you're a certain kind of person. That's starting to get tricky for me to work out who doesn't get to vote. No, I don't want that either. Um, anyone else want to say anything else about that? Oh, that was very well covered by the way. Okay, great. We've got one official last question, but then I've got some random ones on my sleeve. One of them, one of my sleeves. How can this [00:19:30] amazing audience, who have been great all day, honestly, have you been here all day? Not some of you. Yep, okay, they don't want to talk to me at all. They're like, please stop talking to us, Karen, we don't want to talk back to you. Anyway, um, how can the audience, and or anyone, and so all the people here can go and tell ten other people as well, and I will tell as many people as I possibly can, um, except I've been fired from the television, so I don't really have a voice anymore. I've still got a voice, it's just not on the TV. Yeah, I know. Thanks. I blame the government on that too. They've cancelled the news. What are we going to do? Just [00:20:00] look at TikTok all day? I don't even know how to do that. Anyway, what was your question? How can the audience and everyone in the whole universe um, get involved and support the work that you do? Um, if you're age 15 to 27 and want to come volunteer with us, you're very welcome. We're always wanting more, um, passionate, um, rainbow people to come support our mahi. Um, I think. Follow us on social media. Um, we have some great posts. Um, thanks to the lovely River. Um, [00:20:30] Yeah, I think that's Can they give you money? And give us money, of course, of course. Yeah, um, we have Money is a good one. People eat some money. Um, even though our communities don't often have very much money of their own. Um, I think, yeah, we have like a donation page. You can set up a regular donation. You can do a one off donation. Have you asked Christopher Luxon for a donation? He's got 52, 000 he doesn't need anymore. I don't know if we've tried yet, but maybe we should. I'll send him an email. What about we all send Chris an email? Yeah. Saying, you know what, that 52, 000, don't pay [00:21:00] it back, give it to Inside Out please. Yeah. Thank you very much. It's an entitlement and you're entitled to it. Right, good. Well that's gonna, I'm sure that's gonna happen. Absolutely, send an invoice. Um, I think in terms of if you're a parent, um, get involved in the school environment, um, join the boards, uh, give feedback to the schools about good things that they're doing for queer kids and the bad things that they're doing so that the school are aware of what's happening in their, um, in [00:21:30] their, yeah. Yeah, and I think as well what you were saying about it shouldn't just have to be the parents of queer kids. You know, anyone can be there to advocate for the things that they know are right, and I think, you know, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and I think, you know, calling out, just preaching to the converted, I'm sure, in this room, but, um, calling out transphobia and queerphobia whenever you hear it, um, and also, um, checking in on your queer and trans friends, I think, um, just sending a message and saying how are you [00:22:00] doing? Maybe it's hard for you this week because a lot of us are in quarantine. Hearing bad news about things that are particularly relevant to us at various times. Um, so supporting each other, um, yeah, and thinking about what you can do, um, that might be easier for you than it might be for someone else who's more directly affected. So that's like the role of an ally, where many of us may be part of the community here, but we're also always allies to other types of social justice movements or other parts of the community. And sometimes it's easier to help when you're not, um, So directly affected by the issue [00:22:30] yourself. So look out for the spaces where you can add value without and where others can help you when it's too hard for you. Fantastic. I had one more thing. Um, Your time's up. Sorry. Let's just go. Of course it's not. Go. Um, I think community care is really important. So banding together with other, um, rainbow people at this time. And I think an important one is calling out racism, both in and out of, um, rainbow communities. I'm going to do what Quack did at the Hikoi. If you don't already have us on your Instagram, and you've got [00:23:00] Instagram, get out your phone. Get out your phone, guys. And type in Inside Out Koaro with the beautiful rainbow karu logo. I think they're already all following because no one's got their phone out. Come on. Or Facebook. We're on Facebook too. Where else? YouTube? TikTok? We don't. No. Good. No. I don't know. I shouldn't know. If you like TikTok, that's fine. I just don't understand it. Um, yeah, there's often, when things are happening in our communities, we're often I guess we'll put out opportunities for people to support [00:23:30] and over these next two years there's going to be a lot of petitions to sign, a lot of submissions that will need to go to parliament, a lot of opportunities to get involved and turn up and show your support. So, um, yeah, unfortunately, following on social media is usually the best way to keep up to date with what, um, what's going on there. If you're following it for good reasons then I think it's great. Yeah. It's just, you know, but there are obviously for me like there's only so many Cat videos I should really be watching in a day, you know, or like babies and cats. Do you follow us? Puppies and [00:24:00] cats. Always. Do you follow us on yours? I thought I did. I'm just gonna check right now. What are you called again? Instagram. Hang on guys, just bear with me. I'm just checking something. Searching in Yeah, I know how to spell inside. There we are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the one. Yep. Follow back. We were following Karen and Karen wasn't [00:24:30] following us. That is outrageous. I tried to make you guys 12. 50 from my zero Leary beer on Petty Gower. You, you did. You also donated 500 to us when you went on Brain Busters. Yes. So, you've done more than most. Yeah, but now I'm following as well. But now you're following us too. We're going to make an even more amazing difference, positive difference. Um, thank you so much for coming here and sharing that kōrero, and um, like I said, I also, on behalf of everybody that I think is a good person, want to thank you for the amazing work that you do, and, yeah, I think [00:25:00] you make life, that can be really hard, a lot easier, as much as you possibly can for lots of people, so, kia ora, and um, have a lovely rest of your year out in the city. Don't forget to go and see the broccoli. I'm intrigued so I'm going to go as well after this if I ever get to finish. Um, but to do that I need to get on to the next thing. So I would like to say thank you very much to these guys. Have a lovely rest of your day. Kia ora.

IRN: 3788
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/the_rainbow_perspective_georgina_beyer.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004979
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1107390
TITLE: The Rainbow Perspective - Georgina Beyer
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Georgina Beyer
INTERVIEWER: Brianna Ball
TAGS: 1970s; 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Big Teds; Brianna Ball; COVID-19 (coronavirus); Carmen Rupe; Carterton; Carterton District; Chrissy Witoko; Georgie Girl (2001); Georgina Beyer; Hawkes Bay; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Member of Parliament; Radio Hawkes Bay; Sonja Davies; Wairarapa; activism; conservative; equality; homosexual law reform; politics; trans; transgender
DATE: 6 January 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Radio Hawkes Bay, 6/302 Hastings Street North, Hastings
CONTEXT: This is one of the last radio interviews with Georgina Beyer before her death on 6 March 2023. Georgina talks to Brianna Ball, producer of The Rainbow Perspective, a community radio programme broadcast on Radio Hawkes Bay. The series was awarded a Diversity Award in 2022. A special thanks to Brianna and Radio Hawkes Bay for allowing this programme to be shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2024
TEXT: Merry festive season to everybody. This is Brianna from the Rainbow Perspective. I have a very special guest today with me. A very, very important pioneer in the path of transgender people. Her name is Georgina Beyer. You all know her. I can't help it, but I'm actually welling up saying that I have the opportunity to interview Georgina. And [00:00:30] I'd love to welcome you to our show today. I watched Well, hello, Brianna, and thank you for having me, um, on your show, and yeah, warm seasons greetings to you and everyone who's listening. Now I took, in precedence for this, while I haven't had a chance to read your book yet, I did take the time to watch the documentaries, the four part documentary that was made about you and what you've achieved. I'd like to introduce to the members of this, [00:01:00] um, radio show, the listeners, that this is a very fundamental person and she has a great deal to tell us. Georgina, I'm sure that the media have asked you all the inappropriate questions and that's not why we're here today. I'm asking today that you share what you need in most recent generations of rainbow humans need to know so that they can move forward with confidence and [00:01:30] also with respect for what's gone on before. So I'd like to open the forum to you now, my dear. Gosh, such a huge subject area, really. Um, I guess the message I'd like, um, our younger generations of rainbow community to understand these days. Is that the liberties that we enjoy today, that they were probably more or less born into, are fragile, really. And I think we're witnessing that [00:02:00] with some of the quite extremist views that have come to the fore in the last year. A couple of years, particularly, given the trauma the world has had to go through with things like COVID, etc. But also the uprising of, of, um, quite extreme right wing views, um, which tend to use, um, significant minorities, of which I consider our rainbow communities to be that, become, um, uh, [00:02:30] you know, uh, Kicking posts for people, uh, to denigrate and return us back to, uh, being the, um, underprivileged minorities, uh, that we grew up from. And, uh, And emerge from. I stand on the shoulders, of course, of those pioneers before me who were out and proud enough to endure the negativity of our, [00:03:00] uh, I, I, Almost fall short of calling it a lifestyle because that suggests that some of us who transition, et cetera, are, um, making a, a personal kind of choice when really it's my view, it was no choice at all. Uh, it was no choice that we were born into. Societies tended to, um, uh, keep us at the bottom of the heap that we were considered unnatural, not normal, abhorrent, uh, et [00:03:30] cetera. And, um, that extended into the kinds of, um, discriminations and prejudices that were rampantly, um, uh, thrown at us, um, and when you lay layers of ethnicity and other such things on top of that, it, uh, proved that, that it was, um, an impossible thing to try Be yourself and be who you are without there [00:04:00] being huge social ramifications. The law did not protect us at all in those days, quite the contrary. And so I think in the last 40 odd years, at least anyhow in New Zealand, Um, we have come an awfully long way and enjoying the liberty that we have today. And I would like young people to just note that these rights that we have [00:04:30] now, um, are fragile in the sense that it would only really take a change of government, an attitude that is more harsh upon us to come and start to diminish some of what we have fought for very stridently over the last 40 odd years. I think, too, that what, um, we achieved was part of, um, other [00:05:00] movements in the 60s and 70s, the civil rights movement, the anti Vietnam war, the women's movement for equality, etc., like that, and the rainbow community started to emerge and unite, frankly, to assert, uh, their right. Uh, and their, uh, desires to be treated equally under the law and, um, and it has been a long and fractious and, um, and quite tragic [00:05:30] sometimes. Sometimes, um, a battle for, uh, the pioneers, not just in this country, but around the world, uh, to have brought many of us to a point where we can actually live meaningful and contributive lives to our societies, rather than being considered scum of the earth. If I may just reflect on one of the first things that you said just earlier, um, It isn't a choice. The only choice that we have, in my own personal [00:06:00] experience, is when, the how, and the rest of it is a necessity to become who we are. I think that, oh, well of course to, to, to be comfortable in your own skin is an important element of being able to be a properly functioning human being. I think that's right. And, um, one of the, one of the other things, dare I say, a lot of the, um. Attitude that was negative, I think, [00:06:30] uh, stems from, um, religious doctrine, um, love the sinner, hate the sin. I've never considered myself to have been a sinner in any kind of way, and it's patronizing, frankly. Um, I think, um, I think when we gained a certain amount of liberation, whether it be homosexual law reform back in 86 here in New Zealand, and then some subsequent pieces of legislation, and I've always thought that legislation itself was, is [00:07:00] relatively easy to change and alter in a positive, affirmative way, uh, but it's the attitudinal change that needs to happen within the society that takes far, far longer. And I think I often had, um, hopes that it would be the younger generations, um, that would be able to, um, one, benefit from whatever sacrifices we had to make when we were, um, younger, and, uh, sort of, you know, [00:07:30] oppressive attitudes that there were, um, and, and I have to say these days, I think there is, the activism that we have with some of our young people today, uh, these days is impressive, um, and, but sometimes I think sounding a little entitled and, um, and lacking some recognition of, um, um, Of just what exactly did go on, um, for the, um, activism that, um, [00:08:00] rose during the 70s and the 80s. Um, and, uh, and that really even as a rainbow community, um, gay women, gay men, transgender were quite separate, um, in their own worlds, I think at the time, but had recognized that unity Towards a common goal of wanting, um, equality and respect from the society with which we [00:08:30] lived required our visibility. And so, people who stood forward and put themselves out there to be exposed as advocates were hugely brave and courageous because it was very dangerous to do something like that in many ways because you would become a target, of course, that could be recognized. There were very few of us, I think, certainly in the transgender world, um, who were high profile and provided the only [00:09:00] sort of, um, visibility, uh, that any of us who had latent, um, transgender, um, uh, feelings going on at the time, but also, um, It, um, could be played as a football with the media as well at the time. I think one of the few people who, uh, managed to win over an affection, largely, uh, from the country, uh, and, and people in general was someone like, um, Carmen [00:09:30] Rupe. Yeah. Maddie Carmen as we knew her. Um, who although lived in this twilight world, but she was so out there and she was so forthright I think in, in many of her. Ways and attitudes that when she stepped into a public arena, such as running for the mayoralty of Wellington, um, City in 1977, that was quite a major move and, um, to do that, but the visibility alone, um, was [00:10:00] somehow reaffirming for those of us who weren't quite as out as she was at that time. Um, and the courage, I think, of talk, um, It's just one thing, yeah. Um, everybody's got to have their own particular individual experience, I think, of their own transition. It is quite personal in that sense. But there will be things that will occur in each of our lives that have similarities that we utterly identify with. Yeah. [00:10:30] One of the things that I've noticed in the, in the 20s and 30s community of the rainbow community Membership in the Hawke's Bay, for example, is that you're correct. There is an entitlement, but there is a strong Desire to Manifest change and or protect what has been established and I think that there Having, having recognized that I'm a little long in the tooth these days, contemporary understanding of [00:11:00] the world is something that I don't have as, as reasonably as I would have if I was in that age group, but I do see that there is a large group of understated and out there individuals protecting what the wonderful things that you and people like Carmen and Chrissy Wotoke and many others have established for us. Well, a lot of what Chrissy Wetoko and, um, and Carmen did [00:11:30] was about looking after our, um, Our scene, for want of a better term, um, you know, at the time, uh, we, there weren't many, if any, places that were safe havens for us to be who we are and to be out. And, um, and certainly Carmen and Chrissie, uh, both provided venues in Wellington, at least, anyhow. Um, uh, that where they were safe And it just so happened that, um, many other people, highbrows and [00:12:00] lowbrows would, um, uh, frequent, um, uh, Carmen's balcony or Carmen's famous coffee lounge or, um, things like that. So it started to build up. Um, be a place of, of safety and it's alright kind of thing for not just our community, uh, but, um, anybody else who felt that they could, uh, uh, come there. Yes, we had those people that would come who wanted to do their queer bashing and things like [00:12:30] that. But, um, when they got confronted with a few of what we used to call the big teds, um, who really could, um, uh, uh, uh, drop their nice feminine voices and turn back into, uh, uh, some of the masculinity they once had to protect ourselves, I might add. Um, and, uh, uh, it, uh, you know, oddly enough, there would be a strange kind of respect from, uh, people, um, who are frowned upon also in society, such as gang people. [00:13:00] I noticed that, um, in my own experience, and again, reflecting on what I watched in your documentary, Georgie Girl, last night, that, um, it came, it came to my awareness early on that the only way that you will win the battle is by winning the heart of the people that you are most challenged by. And I noted how effectively in your career as an, um, mayor and as an MP, you were able to do that to even the most, um, [00:13:30] Perceivably unreachable of people in my own experience, it's about being honest and open hearted and willing to understand that sometimes transition is a journey that more than one person including yourself is taking at that time. I have, well, I have to, you know, as far as my political career was concerned, um, that is, you know, to have. Being elected to either [00:14:00] the District Council or to Parliament is more a reflection, I think, on, um, The people who elected me who knew all about my back story I mean, I'd been a former prostitute, a stripper, you know, all of that kind of negative thing I'd spent most of and that was so I transitioned 1970s and I was on the you know on the game so to speak until you know about the early 1980s before I then [00:14:30] ended up in Uh, working at a, a gay nightclub in Auckland, Alfie's. Um, The nightclub's doing drag shows, um, uh, kind of stuff, so most of the 80s was spent doing that. But, also at the same time, um, in the film world, at least, anyhow, um, Roles were being written, um, and I was lucky enough to star in a short film called Jules Dahl, which was a drama, uh, which depicted a day in the [00:15:00] life of a transsexual and a transvestite. And in television in New Zealand at that time, subject matter like that was just simply not done, let alone aired on television. And, um, And it was a different perspective on the lives of transgender people, although it was a drama, and um, you know, at that sense, but it was beyond the caricature of the, um, Benny Hill, Dick Emery kind [00:15:30] of, Danny LaRue stereotype drag. Queen stuff. It was more a real look at more real people who happen to be transgender, in this case transsexual and a transvestite. And that was sort of a bit of a breakthrough as far as our visibility being altered from just being, um, laughable caricatures, um, to something a bit more real and an insight for the general public, I think, to see a different perspective on our more real [00:16:00] lives. And some of our aspirations, I suppose, just to be who we are and to be allowed to function. Institutional prejudice and discrimination was terrible for us at the time. I mean, I think that, you know, I think I probably mentioned it in the Georgie Girl doco that um, I went fronting up to the doll office to sign up for the doll. I just got told to put my trousers back on and be the man I'm supposed to be and go out there and get a job. And I guess for me personally, that's where I drew the [00:16:30] line and I said, well, no, actually, this is who I am and, and I'm not going to change it for anybody and if I have to suffer your, um, uh, your draconian view on allowing me to be a participant in our society, then I think you're foolish because, um, uh, you are really, uh, Telling us that, um, we're going to be burdens on society, and that will cost society. How ridiculous is that? When really we could be properly functioning people, making, [00:17:00] um, a contribution to not only our own lives, but the lives of the, the life of the country. And being, you know, taxpayers. And if I'm going to be a taxpayer, then I want equality under the law. Thank you very much. I must admit that I owe you a great debt of thanks. If I'd come out 20 years ago in the town that I've lived in for the last 22 years, um, my life would be very different. And I always believe that the right thing happens at the right time. It's just your personal perspective that makes it not [00:17:30] appear so. Yeah, you know, that, that, that there's a lot of gratitude. Um, the efforts that the likes of yourselves and your colleagues have made. Well, thank you. But there again, I look at the people in the Wairarapa and Carterton District who gave me the privilege of being their representative. It's a wonderful reflection on them. I mean, the Wairarapa, excuse me, a rural, conservative, provincial area. Perhaps if I'd been elected into these positions in, I don't [00:18:00] know, an urban suburb like, Gray Lynn or something like that in Auckland. People might have gone, oh yeah, those bitty folk. Uh, but no, this was real, you know, country, basic, you know, character of New Zealand. And they, knowing my backstory, were able to put that aside and actually look at the substance of the person, as opposed to the hype that was around, you know, that, you know, It was around me at the time, um, which of course was fanned a lot by, um, [00:18:30] sensational media sort of exposees, for want of a better term about it, thinking that if I hadn't, um, actually put out my, um, um, My warts and all story beforehand so that people could make their choice fairly and honestly, um, about electing me. Uh, so, uh, I moved it from me having to try and compensate for it to, well, here we are. Now you make the choice and they made a choice and [00:19:00] I think that that was just fantastic and incredibly brave and courageous and perhaps a little bit let's give the finger to society to them you know there was a bit of that too I think but oh I like the sound of her um you know at least she's straight up and that's another thing too straight up honesty you know not no fluffing around or You know, um, dancing on the head of a pin, or trying to avoid or anything, just say it like it is, and people respond to [00:19:30] that, particularly rural folks. Well, that's exactly my experience here too, um. Surprisingly enough, if you are honest and hold your own integrity and you express that, um, and you're authentic in who you are, especially I mean, there was a funny, there's a lovely, um, piece, and you might have seen it or heard it in the Georgie Girl doco that's fabulous, and, and the late Sonya Davies was doing a voiceover piece on the doco. Oh, yeah. She says, oh, there was this husky old farmer just out [00:20:00] of Dannyvac. Um, and he's voted national all his life and everything like that. But when asked who he might vote for at this election, he said, oh, I might vote for that Georgina Byer, cause she's a damn good chap. Oh, I love that. That damn good chap reference was perfect. I liked it too. Others would be offended by that, you know. We're in the trans scene, but, you know, get over yourself. Um, , you know, that is, is the way that ordinary folk out there are gonna sort of [00:20:30] organize that in their mind, and that's fine by me, , you know? Yeah. Because their intention is good. It's not bad. Sure. One of the things I would like to mention too, the listeners who live in the central Hawkes Bay where I reside, is that the acceptance that I've received personally has been absolutely overwhelming, and it shows that. We have a society with an adaptive mindset, and I think that is the way forward.[00:21:00] And you know, we as a community, too, have got to compromise and meet the society we live in. At least halfway. And so there's some give and take, you know, on that. The thing I've noticed in the young ones, that they don't necessarily want to realize that their compromise is the transition is a journey. It's not a one way. That's right. At the end of the day, we just want to be functioning, have fulfilled lives, and to be comfortable with who we are. And, um, [00:21:30] and now with these younger generations, of course, they have more of a straight direction, perhaps you or I have, um, Ever did when we were, um, making those transitions and, um, and having to also deal with society that was transitioning with us in their own way, um, to get used to it and to shake themselves of the conventions that had, um, uh, relegated us to being, um, subhuman, frankly. Sure. Um, so Gina, we're down to our last [00:22:00] minute. I'm going to invite you please to That was quick. I know, and I'd love to have another opportunity to catch more of your wonderful wisdom, but I'd like you to just share in a, in a very brief summary, what do people need now? So what we need now is, um, I think an understanding and a compassion for each other. It concerns me that even within the rainbow community and the transgender community, because you know, the term transgender now can have up [00:22:30] to what, 30 plus definitions of what a transgender person is. Uh, that we don't silo off into our particular, you know, whether we're gender fluid, transgender, trans this and that, and all of that kind of thing, and remember that our strength lies in our unity. Um, yes, we are allowed to have differences, of course, and yes, we can have differences of opinion, but let's not turn into hating each other because I don't quite see eye to eye with you. It's not helpful. Yeah. And at all, um, when that happens. [00:23:00] But just to have a healthy respect for where we come from. And at the end of the day, um, we are all just wanting to live as I've said earlier, um, comfortable fulfilled lives that are where we feel that we're not just making a contribution to our own families and our own communities. Um, and our own lives, but to the general society that we live in, and that's of benefit to everyone, to have us as good, functioning citizens, and that's what we are at the end of the day. And, um, [00:23:30] and that there's no point and no sense in keeping us, um, suppressed, oppressed, because that ends up costing society, let alone ourselves individually. And there's been too many suicides, too much death, too much trauma, too much drug abuse, too much. All of that, uh, for us to, um, you know, fall back into, into that. Thank you very much Georgina Byer for joining me today and bringing your wisdom and your insight and your history to the awareness of the people that are out there today.

IRN: 3786
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TITLE: Grant Robertson and co
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VOICES: Ayesha Verrall; Des Smith; Grant Robertson; John Jolliff; Shanan Halbert
INTERVIEWER: Grant Robertson
TAGS: 1980s; 2020s; Amanduh la Whore; Amazons Softball Club (Wellington); Aotearoa New Zealand; Ayesha Verrall; Chris Carter; Civil Union Act (2004); David Seymour; Des Smith; Education Review Office (ERO); Enough is Enough (2004, Destiny Church rally); Fran Wilde; Gay Task Force; Gender Flux (USA); Glen Bennett; Grant Robertson; Heterosexuals Unafraid of Gays (HUG); Homosexual Law Reform; Israel; Jewish community; John Jolliff; Kerry Prendergast; Krazy Knights (Wellington rugby team); Lesbian and Gay Fair; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Michael Fowler Centre; Newtown School; Out in the City (Wellington); Out in the Park (Wellington); Out in the Square (Wellington); Paul Holmes; Ricardo Menendez March; Ruth Dyson; Shanan Halbert; St Andrew's on the Terrace; Te Whatu Ora Health (public health); The Boatshed; Tino Rangatiratanga; Tiriti o Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi; Wellington; Wellington Gay Task Force; Wellington Pride Festival (2024); Zealandia; activism; anti-Semitism; blood donation; church; civil unions; culture wars; gay+gay=aids; gender affirming health care clinic; gender affirming healthcare; gender-affirming surgery; haka; health; health care; health funding; health rights; health system; homosexual law reform; inclusion; inclusive guidelines in sport; kura; marriage equality; othering; police; radio; rugby; school; select committee; sovereignty; sport; t-shirt boys; t-shirts; takatāpui; talk back; trans; transphobia; vigilance; visibility
DATE: 17 March 2024
YEAR: 2024
LOCATION: Michael Fowler Centre, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: As part of Out in the City 2024, MP Grant Robertson was invited to interview friends and colleagues in the main auditorium of the Michael Fowler Centre. Grant talked to Des Smith and John Jolliff, MP's Ayesha Verrall and Shanan Halbert. With Grants retirement as a Member of Parliament in late March 2024, this was the last Pride event he took part while an MP. Thanks to the organisers and and participants for allowing this to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2024
TEXT: Greetings everybody. Um, thank you for this. Uh, thank you, Karen. Um, my. favourite New Zealand comedian, who's here today. Um, so, um, it's, it's a [00:00:30] great opportunity. Who's here today? No, you're just supposed to hear the first bit. Um, it's a great opportunity, and I want to thank the organisers of, uh, Out in the City for inviting me to come along and speak at the opening, uh, piece of this bit on the main stage. I think the reason they invited me is, and I acknowledge, um, Hamish Allardyce in the room when I say this, that I'm now officially an old queen. And so, um, they And so, uh I am, uh, this will be the last [00:01:00] out in the city I'm at for a while because I'm going to be moving down to Dunedin and so, uh, thank you to the organisers for giving me the opportunity to, to come along. I just want to do two things, uh, in the time that we've got. One of those, as I think is always really important, uh, on occasions like this is to look back to our past and understand the whakapapa of this event. Uh, and shortly I'm going to invite two amazing people up on the stage, um, who, uh, are doyens [00:01:30] of the rainbow community in Wellington and were part of the beginnings of this. And then after we, uh, do that, uh, we'll also then just spend a few minutes, uh, talking Maybe getting just a tiny bit more serious about some issues that the rainbow community is facing and how we're going to be dealing with those. Uh, I do want to acknowledge that in the room I've got a number of my parliamentary colleagues who are sitting down in the front row. I've got uh, Dr. I. Shaviro, Ginny Anderson, Barbara Edmonds and Shannon Helbert, who are all our Rainbow Labour MPs, um, who've come along today, or [00:02:00] Labour MPs who've come along today. Um, don't want to out you there Ginny. Uh, so yeah, um, thanks for coming and supporting us. So, as I said, I want to now invite up onto the stage, um, my friends, and two, um, of my favourite gays, um, John Jolliffe and Des Smith. So, John and Des, do you want to start making your way up here? For anyone who doesn't know, and you're about to find out all about it now, Des and [00:02:30] John began what was then called the Gay and Lesbian Fair 38 years ago. Woo! Come along team. You guys, here. Uh, 38 years ago, um, and that was, um, the fair, it was, Des will tell me and correct me, please have a seat. Des will, um, correct me, I'm sure, but it was called, The first fear in 1986 was called a fear for a fear law. That's [00:03:00] right. So for anyone who doesn't know, 1986 was the year that the Homosexual Law Reform Act was passed. Finally decriminalising homosexual activity. And in the face of a pretty full on, uh, Opposition, which we'll talk about in a second. Des and John and others, um, started, um, what was an incredibly courageous act at the time to have a fair that was out, outwardly saying that it was the gay and lesbian fair. And that fair stayed at Newtown [00:03:30] School for, um, And then became out in the square, which became out in the park, which became out in the city. So that's the whakapapa of the event. And so, we'll hand that over to you guys. Um, Des, perhaps start with you. Uh, The organization of the first fair, you know, we've said it was about the law, but what was in your head when you were pulling it together? Okay, it was the first gay, in [00:04:00] 1986, before, uh, homosexual law reform was passed, we had a meeting of the gay task force. And the idea was to have a fair. Okay, three of us were elected to organize it, and, uh, the other two wanted to have it, It's an Andrews and then I said, no, no church. So, okay, uh, we thought, right, a school. Yeah. Neutral ground. Okay. So it was new town school. Good suburb to have it in. And it [00:04:30] worked well. And I have to even mention now a woman called Elaine Lethbridge. She was our one that battled our right to have the hall. But anyway, the first fair was a great success. And, uh, but we did have the bigots, yeah, the guys they called the t shirt boys came along. So these were the, these were people who were against homosexual law reform? They were, and what they had is these muscle boys, and they had these t shirts on, with, [00:05:00] uh, gay plus gay equals AIDS on the front, and on the back, stop homosexual law reform. They arrived at the gate, and I thought, oh, God, Better not say the word, but anyway. Insert word, yep. Anyway, so how do I deal with this? And they, they were going to be threatening. Anyway, the Amazon Softball Club were practicing in the school grounds. So I called them over, and they came over with their bats on me. [00:05:30] And they stood around them. And, uh, My God, did those guys bugger off. It's always been a partnership between the gays and lesbians, hasn't it? I did call the cops and, uh, one of the, one of the guys, I can't remember his name, but he ended up, he had, he was a gay cop, but he told me that one of the cops they did send was a fundamentalist Christian and, uh, that was a worry. Anyway, we dealt with that. The fair was a great [00:06:00] success. And then the next one, um, I met John, and he helped with the entertainment. And I tell you what, we had some great entertainment at those fairs. You certainly did. Can we, we just need to back the truck up a tiny bit here Des, because you started another group, which was called, well you didn't start the group, but you started the Wellington chapter of another group called H. U. G. What did H. U. G. stand for Des? Heterosexuals Unafraid of Gays. So why would you have been forming a group called HUC? [00:06:30] No, this was early, this was 19, going back to 1985. That was interesting. I was working for a woman actually, helping with a nutrition of a health. And, um, I listened to Paul Holmes on Talkback. And it was interesting because, what would happen is that, There's all this anti gay stuff coming over. So I got on the phone and put my two pence worth in, and [00:07:00] um, Paul Holmes was very good, but his, um, producer said to me, give me your phone number and I'll ring you back. And she said to me, look, immediately you ring, The lines are all blocked with the people wanting to say anti. She said, we'll ring you at 10, uh, about quarter to 12. You say, put your word in. And then that doesn't give them much time, does it? Because they close down at 12. [00:07:30] So I would ring, ring up and I would say, quite a, you know, really good things about why homosexual law reform should go through. Okay. And that was great. So, Paul Holmes was, uh, a great person to, um, uh, to help with this. And I, I would like to say at this point, too, another group that came out, and with the problems in the world, and with the whole Hamas thing in Israel, but a group of [00:08:00] young Jewish people, they were not gay, they actually came and approached me if they could. Help out and they raise money because they knew about the holocaust and how we'd be affected by the holocaust like they were and they raised money and put up posters and really helped out and when I hear anti semitism it just really gets up my nose and this is something that a lot of people don't know about and so that's just another thing that happened but [00:08:30] anyway, um, Hug was, Wellington was the biggest growing organization of anywhere in New Zealand. And I was in the middle of it and I thought, hold on, I can't be here. Because it will come as a shock to all of you that people might've thought that there's could have been in the hack. Um, but would you like to give the microphone to John just for a moment? Des. So, so John, I'm getting [00:09:00] a feeling that you might've been reasonably significant in, um, um, assisting these two. Move from hug to hugging other things. Well, it became very important when we met. Is that right? And, um, We met and it really was a magic moment which I can remember very, very well. We were both volunteers with the AIDS Foundation at the time. And the person who was running the clinic had a housewarming [00:09:30] party. And, uh, And, uh, We went and we met and we've been together ever since and we've been talking, what, as long as the fair's been going, really, 38, 38 years. 38 years these two. It's, it's all gone very quickly but it's been rather exciting to be involved in things like the civil union and that to me was a highlight of my, uh, being political as a gay man, as an old [00:10:00] queen and, and, um, It's um, really wonderful to look back and see how far we have come. But I do feel at the moment that I have to remember the words of Fran Wild during the law reform campaign. There are two Vs. Visibility and vigilance, and both are very important right now. Absolutely. We can see what's happening in the world with uh, [00:10:30] repression and uh, We don't want anything eroded in our rights. So, it's been a fight worth doing. Let's skip forward a little bit too. So, obviously the fear was a huge thing and a massive part of your life. But as you mentioned, you, I think I'm right, you were the first couple to be civil unioned, is that right? We're told we are, our certificate is NZCU number one, so. Well that's, that's impressive. Um, [00:11:00] that campaign, um, was, I think sometimes people forget just how difficult the civil union campaign was because the evangelical Christian movement was kind of, At its peak, and Brian Tamaki came down to Wellington and there was about 5, 000 people, I think, on that Enough is Enough rally. Um, any memories for either of you from that Civil Union campaign? Well, I think the Brian Tamaki one was, to me, [00:11:30] horrifying, because they had eight year old kids marching through the streets saying, Enough is Enough. The kids didn't know what they were doing, so they sort of Poisoning the minds of young people, and I think that's horrifying. But, um, what was important, I think, is that by and large, I find that Kiwis don't like that sort of extremism. And in fact, they probably dug a hole in their own policies and approach. They were not [00:12:00] appreciated by very many people. I think that's right. I think he's might have Select committee. Till then what? Oh dear. Okay. If I may. Please. Right. Okay. Select committee on the marriage equality bill. There was a certain member of parliament, who perhaps should be nameless, um, who we were talking about, you know, we needed marriage equality. And the lovely [00:12:30] Ruth Dyson was cheering. And this man said to us, um, If the bill goes through, who will be the wife? And who will be the husband? Uh, I wasn't very quick. I just promptly said, Well, you know, the marriage legislation doesn't include gender, but Dez was much quicker and wiser than I am, and he said, well, we don't actually role play, but, uh, John does most of the [00:13:00] cooking. Yeah. And, and, and marriage equality was, was the next stage after, um, after, uh, civil unions. And again, you guys were, were there. Have you, have you, um, Changed from civil union to marriage. Oh, yes. Where did you do that? 10 years exactly to the hour after our civil union. And the first civil union was a big affair. [00:13:30] Town hall, because we knew Kelly Prendergast personally. She said she would, uh, we only had to pay for security guards. And then we had the boat shared with the reception with a big parade with I don't know how many hundred people. And, um, But then 10 years to the date, we had this wonderful at Zelandia and it was really good. And, uh, Amanda, Amanda La, we have to still thank again, because [00:14:00] she did a wonderful drag queen. And I still remember she did about 10 different performances. And so it was a wonderful affair, but what the staff told me. They said, your wedding was great, and everybody was so happy. She, for hetros, when they get married, someone always has a scrap. So I thought that was good. And for those who don't know, um, Des and John, but Des in particular, have been long standing supporters of [00:14:30] Zalandia. And I think you, do you still host tours? No, I, I still do a tour once a week, and last week I had, um, um, 14 on a tour. Generally it's a maximum of 12. But I heard someone at the desk say, oh, Des will take another tour. He's got a big enough voice. . So , that is true. And, but uh, the tours I do, um, it's the light with em is the people I meet. 'cause the [00:15:00] $60 each, they pay. So, I mean, I don't get anything except a free cup of coffee, but the thing is that, um, these people would not pay that much if I didn't have an interest in the environment. And this is what I really enjoy. I meet some absolutely fabulous people and have had an invite. So Chateau in France, uh, the gardens of the Bay in Singapore gave me a card to have a wonderful tour. And that was really good. [00:15:30] John just asked when they were going to the Chateau in France. I haven't seen that. Look, just before we finish up, I wanted to give both of you perhaps the opportunity to say something for the future. And current activists in the rainbow community. What, what do you think of the, the, what's the big lesson for you and what's your hope for that? John, you've already mentioned, you know, some of your concerns perhaps [00:16:00] about what's happening right now. But perhaps just give each of you the chance to say something to the next generation. Yeah, what I say again is vigilance and visibility. And something like this Pride Week is very important. And the visibility. We are at a very precarious state in the whole world and when you think of what's happening overseas and I think we have to be very vigilant and very visible and, uh, [00:16:30] hopefully that from that we will not have that sort of persecution which has happened in the past and then we've got to look at, um, the whole Te the whole Māori perspective much better than, um, The British. Your turn, John. I think, really, is persistence. Persistence in the face of opposition. [00:17:00] Persistence in the face of ignorance. And we face a lot of ignorance, particularly relating to the trans community. MyCap has got Flux on it. It's an organization that supports and promotes understanding. Of trans people. And I think it's a wonderful organization. Functionally, it's in America. It's not here yet. But we need to look at all the aspects of gender diversity and non binary [00:17:30] people. And we need to persist and we need to be brave. And I think all the way through this, it's important that we don't become snide, we don't become smart arsed, it's important. We need a sense of humor. We need to expose the opposition to ridicule. It's the best way to win. Ladies and gentlemen, John Jolliffe and Des Smith.[00:18:00] Um, as um, uh, Des and John just, just go down the stairs, it is just worth noting the extraordinary contribution that they have made over these last four decades to Wellington in general. Um, just before Des and I were talking about, you know, his interest in environment and conservation. Um, so they've got interests well beyond the rainbow community, but what they have done. for our community over these years is extraordinary and [00:18:30] when you walk around a fair like this or any of the events in Pride Week, just remember that the courage and the bravery that it took 38 years ago to stand up and organize that fair. So thanks again, uh, Des and John. In just the remaining time we've got, and I know Shannon has to jump off to go to Christchurch Pride, which is taking place today, I'll just get um, Aisha and Shannon to Pop up on the stage very quickly if they can, please. Um, so, [00:19:00] um, Dr I should be real. Uh, well known to many of you is a covert, uh, expert and person who came into our cabinet in 2020 to help us with our response to covert. Um, and an MP based here in Wellington and Shannon Helbert, who's formerly the MP for Northcote and one of our Auckland based MPs now. Um, so I invite them both to And I thought, just in this last bit, what we would do is have a chat around contemporary issues, and, um, John [00:19:30] and Des have both, um, discussed those. Um, John mentioned in particular, um, support for our trans community. Um, this is, uh, I think probably the, one of the biggest issues that's facing the rainbow communities at the moment is, um, What I would describe as the othering of trans people. And, um, when I was the Minister of Sport, I saw this a lot, where people were fighting this imagined enemy, um, in terms of the trans community. And, um, the [00:20:00] words and the phrases were, Horribly familiar because they were the same words and phrases that had been thrown about against lesbian and gay and other members of the rainbow community previously. And so there's a huge amount of work to do in that space, John, and I really thank you for mentioning it today. So, um, we'll start with you, Osha, um, perhaps just any of the big issues that you think we need to be working on at the moment. Yeah, I think, um, we need to make sure that our, our services that, um, are [00:20:30] important to all members of our community are appropriately inclusive. And one area where that is not, um, the case is, I think, the, uh, rules around blood donation in, in New Zealand. Um, now I have, uh, um, I, I see that as an issue that was previously, you know, Um, uh, more complicated than it is now. Many countries have made the shift to being able to, uh, not discriminate [00:21:00] against gay men when they give blood on the basis of them being gay. And to be able to make a more health based assessment of who should be able to donate blood. That's the case in Canada. It's the case, I think, in the United Kingdom as well. And we should be able to make that change. I think it's important because blood donation is quite a unique thing we do as a community. It's actually giving a gift that, you know, there's no amount of, um, other way for the state to organize blood other than people [00:21:30] volunteering and giving their time. And I think, uh, when you haven't got a strong basis for saying some people can't give that gift, it's actually a terrible message that we're sending to people. So I think that's an important thing for us to, uh, sort out and would be the main thing we're doing. Among a number of, um, things that we set up in the reformed health system to make sure that services were responsive, including that Te Whātua Ora, we required Te Whātua Ora to have a, um, Uh, now called Health New Zealand to [00:22:00] have a, um, uh, forum for hearing voices from the Rainbow community. So, um, hearing those key words around vigilance, that's what, as the opposition spokesperson, I'm looking out for is to see progress on those areas. Thanks, Jen. Um, Grant, can I just start off by acknowledging you, um, and your leadership, particularly for our rainbow community in the parliamentary space and here in, um, Te Whanganui a tara. You will be very missed, of course, um, both in [00:22:30] parliament, but also by the community. And, you know, we, we take on our shoulders the lega you're part of your legacy moving forward to do better for our rainbow community. I've been doing a little bit of a hikoi myself across Pride events, um, across Aotearoa, and Christchurch today is another opportunity, really, where I've been listening and hearing the voices of our rainbow takatapui community. And last week at Pride March, um, you know, very strong voices came through [00:23:00] around te no rangatiratanga, um, and the word sovereignty has really stood out for me as I've travelled the country over pride, whether that be our health sovereignty and what we saw with Smokefree and um, the disestablishment of the Māori Health Authority, whether that be uh, through the Treaty Principles Bill, whether that be through um, the guidelines or New Zealand First wanting to take away the guidelines that we put in place in sexuality education [00:23:30] in our, in our kura and in our schools. Those are things that, um, put in place the protection of our tamariki and rangatahi to be who they are. Um, you know, as takatāpui, as Māori, um, as them, and an opportunity to support, um, both their whānau, their parents, and people teaching in, in that. So, what's top of mind for me really is, is over the next couple of years, how do we protect the things that we've put in place? That's the progress that. [00:24:00] community have made, um, and then continue to push forward, um, because while we have a number of issues live at the moment that we want to progress, you know, we've got some real risks to our community, to our sovereignty, and actually to our rainbow voice when we look, um, you know, as a part of this government. Our representation in Parliament is shrinking, um, this time round, and, you know, uh, luckily, uh, we will replace a Grant Robertson with a Glenn Bennett to [00:24:30] ensure that our team is there. We do one gay out, one gay in, in Labour, just to see. It's like a club. Yeah. Um, but we've got to work really, really hard and ensure that our rainbow community is seeing our voices in Parliament on the issues that are, that matter to them, not just the issues that matter to us. Shan, do you want to say a little bit more about, um, where things might be at for Takatāpui and Māori? Because I think that, um, again, raised by, by John and Des as [00:25:00] well, um, where do you see things at the moment and any particular actions or activities that you think we need to be involved in as a rainbow community, um, supporting Takatāpui? Yeah, but what's important is that we lift up our Takatāpui voice. on these types of issues and give a, a, a rainbow perspective on, um, Toitū Te Tiriti, on how we view, um, parts of this government. One of the things I was concerned about this week as we saw at Fryberg High School, of [00:25:30] course, the group of rangatahi do the haka to David Seymour, you know, and, um, and then they got disciplined by their school. And the question out there for us is what were they being disciplined for? I'm not a fan of spitting, I'm not a fan of swearing, um, but our young people were hurt by his actions. And so when our community goes out and our voice is louder, you know, we will [00:26:00] expect that these people will try and discipline us, shut us down, minimize what we're saying. Um, but when we, you know, when we come together, and this is the challenge for our community, Is we've got to walk side by side in solidarity and play a far more strategic game to get better outcomes for our rainbow community and that's, that's all of our challenge. Aisha, I just wanted perhaps to pop back to you for just a second around a couple of health issues, but one in particular, which has [00:26:30] been an issue that we took on in government but didn't finish, and that's the work around access to health services for the trans community. Just your thoughts on where we might need to go next in that. Again, it's another one of those safeguarding what we did in terms of access to gender affirmation surgery, but also access to other health services. Got any further thoughts on that? Firstly, um, I entered the Rainbow Health portfolio with, [00:27:00] um, the thing that hardly ever happens, which is funding. Um, so thank you Grant for I don't know who the finance minister was, I can't think how that would have happened. So there was funding, um, for that, uh, gender affirming. surgery. I think like many of our surgical services that that service, uh, struggled with the challenges of COVID because it is small, but we gave it a, a good, um, uh, spruce up addressed its, uh, wait list. And I think it is in the position to be able [00:27:30] to go forward more, more sustainably. Uh, though, if anyone in the audience is considering a training in that area, we also need to have a. Local supply of specialists for the longer term as well that but I think the big issue. Um is how do we go from? where we are now with trans health care, which is, um, it shouldn't be all about surgery. It should be that when you go to the health service you use most often, which for [00:28:00] most people is their general practitioner or someone else in primary care, that you are always understood. And if the person doesn't know, um, immediately all of the issues you're putting on the table, there is a place for you to go and that referral happens smoothly. The way we started with that was to fund eight, uh, gender affirming care clinics around, uh, around the country and the rollout of that is in, uh, is in process. Um, so [00:28:30] that in, Different parts of the country, you'll be able to access that care. Now. I think the That is something that of course we have to watch and in the current current funding environment in the health system with the current priorities that this government has but also With the threats there are to gender affirming care coming as part of this sort of right wing culture wars from across the world, and there's been some recent developments in that, but [00:29:00] I see that is actually the tougher change, is making sure that the thousands of primary care practitioners are competent. So, I've had conversations with, um, the, all of the medical colleges and nursing colleges about this, but it is, this is a 10, 15 year project to get our, our people, um, to the level of competency required. Thanks, Aisha, and I just, you know, want to say as I'm walking out the door of politics that, [00:29:30] um, having, um, the likes of Aisha and Shannon and, and others, you know, there are others in, in other political parties too, um, Ricardo and the Greens and others who are, are really stepping up to show leadership in this and I feel really confident, um, in the fact that Shannon and our other Rainbow Caucus members are here because, as you can hear, there's so much knowledge and understanding here, and as a community, we need elected representatives who will stand up for our communities.[00:30:00] We're a bit thin on the ground on the other side of politics at the moment in that regard, but we keep pushing across the Parliament and across parties to move forward. Since I've got the mic and we've got a couple of minutes left, I'll just throw in my two cents worth on that. The issues that I see coming up and one that has never gone away for me is making sure that our schools are safe environments. For young people, and that applies to absolutely everybody in our schools, but especially to members of the rainbow community It's [00:30:30] a long time ago since I was one of those people but a lot has not changed about the stresses and the strains and the Uncertainties and the need for support, and I still think there's more we can do in our schools and our kura to make sure that That people are supported and affirmed and to make sure that the staff. Uh, So, They are supported to do their work as well. And I think that's a real story of vigilance. Um, we made some changes the last [00:31:00] time we were in government around, making sure that the Education Review Office had to look at what school's practices, we're in knowledge. Chris Carter, who was the minister at the time who did The work to make that happen. But I'm still convinced can make the lives of young Rainbow community members better and more supported if we do that. The other area I wanted to mention is in the sport area, so I was the Minister of Sport and Recreation. No secret, it was probably my favourite portfolio, [00:31:30] um, ahead of the finance one. Uh, and in it, um, we worked really hard to make sure that sport was more inclusive. A lot of rainbow community members have terrible experiences of sport. And that is so wrong. Um, many, many years ago I got to play in the Crazy Knights, New Zealand's first gay rugby team, and one of the things that struck me about that was that I'd played rugby, look at me, it was obvious, um, for a long [00:32:00] time, but 90 percent of the team had never played before, and about 50 percent of them We're playing to exorcise some demons to get rid of some of the things that had happened to them as they had been growing up and the camaraderie that we developed in that team was just extraordinary and Dez mentioned the Amazon softball team, which has been around for a very very long time as well. The the thing about sport is It's one of [00:32:30] the ways, and it's not the only way, arts and music and others do this in our community as well. But it brings communities together and brings people from very different walks of life together. And so I've always worked really hard to make sure that the way we support and fund sport does that. And one of the things we did when I was minister was that we put in place a set of guidelines around trans and non binary people and sport. And these weren't rules, they were literally just guidelines to support sporting [00:33:00] clubs and organisations to offer an inclusive environment. And they were really, really welcomed by the sports because a lot of really well meaning people weren't sure what, how, how they could work with people who wanted to play their sport or join their club um, who were from our trans community. And in a really, really tragic and silly thing, in the coalition agreement between National and New Zealand First, they've got a line in it about defunding [00:33:30] organisations who effectively create a safe space for trans people who want to join. It's terrible. It's one of the most insidious things because, as I said before, it's fighting this imagined enemy, which doesn't exist. Um, when it's up at the international level, we don't make the rules about that. Our government should never make the rules about that. That's up to the International Swimming Federation or the International Rugby Union or whatever. But at a community level, [00:34:00] that's where we get to do it. Because all it is, is about giving people a chance to participate. and be a part of their community. And so that's one issue, team, as I leave, that we need to make sure doesn't go anywhere. I suspect New Zealand first got it in and the National Party kind of almost didn't really realise what it was. And so we need to make sure that that does not go anywhere. Because that ability to participate and be part of the community in the sports and [00:34:30] recreation space is so important. Um, because it does give people those connections that we really need. But enough reckons from an old man who's, um, um, walking out the door. I just want to say thank you again, um, to Osha and Shannon. Um, and especially to, um, Dez and John. Um, and, you know, Understanding our history, understanding where we come from, but also appreciating the challenges and opportunities that are in the future is massively important. And out in the city and events like this are a great way to be able [00:35:00] to express who we are as a community. And I thank you again for the opportunity to be here. Ngā mihi nui ki a koutou katoa. Nō reira, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa.

IRN: 3782
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/vigil_for_nex_benedict_and_other_victims.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004976
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1107387
TITLE: Vigil for Nex Benedict and other victims
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Leliel Trethowen; Tristan-Cordelia; Will Hansen
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Civic Square / Te Ngākau; Leliel Trethowen; Nex Benedict; Oklahoma (USA); Tristan-Cordelia; United States of America; Wellington; Wellington Pride Festival (2024); Will Hansen; Zena Campbell; hīkoi; murder; non-binary; non-binary violence; queer; sex work; trans; transphobia; transphobic violence; vigil
DATE: 7 March 2024
YEAR: 2024
LOCATION: Civic Square / Te Ngākau, Civic Square/Te Ngākau, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the vigil to honour Nex Benedict and other victims of non-binary and trans violence. The vigil took place in Civic Square at 7pm on 7 March 2024. A special thank you to the organisers and speakers for allowing this event to be recorded and shared. Note the minute-of-silence has been shortened for this recording.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2024
TEXT: He whakamaumaharatanga tēnei kia next. Haere te wairua ki tō iwi. Haere, haere, haere. Ah, kia ora whanau. So hi, I'm Rosie. My pronouns, uh, he, they, and I'm running the vigil with the help of my, um, lovely friends from QED. So, yeah, I, so basically, I'm just reading over my phone because I rode it on, like, the bus today.[00:00:30] So I thought a lot about what I wanted to say. Um, also I have autism, so sorry about the tone. I think that it's really critical to remember those who came before us and who made Pride a riot. Like then, I think that we are at the beginning of a revolution, but that can be said, Because a revolution begins when things are stacked against us, and things have always been stacked against us, at least in colonial western driven [00:01:00] societies. Our governments, our fellow humans, those who are meant to keep us safe from harm, are voting for those who mean to do us harm or, or harming us. We are not the bad things that they say we are. We are human and being queer unites us both on our grief and our joy. Maybe in some ways, in a way that people who aren't queer will not understand. We don't choose to be queer but we can choose to use [00:01:30] our shared experiences to come together and unite and remember what we have lost and fight what everything we can gain for those because of those. Before us and those that are going to come after us, our lost trans siblings all around the world would be proud of everyone here today who is remembering those who have we lost and remember and remembering what we are here to fight for remembering them helps us use our anger, our grief and our [00:02:00] fear about being queer in today's world to spark a revolution like and fight for our rights like at the Hikoi. Um, that's happening this weekend. So, no more dead trans kids. Alright, um, we would like to read out the names of [00:02:30] our trans fan out who have been lost to us already through violence this year, 2024. There's more names on this list than I thought there would be, and there's more names on this list than there should be. In 2024, already lost to us. Next, Benedict. Kitty Munro. Layla Catalan. Lola. Eduarda [00:03:00] Dertresilva. Vanessa. Gabby Ortiz. Katiushka Cedeno. Sofia Oliveira. Giovanna Souza. Miriam Nohemi Rios Rios. Bonitinia, Dr. Samantha Finesca, Mayla Rafaela Martins, Diva Reyna de los Santos Contreras, Ify Dillith, Kelly [00:03:30] Sousa, Raffaele Costa, Simi, Kal, Dana Lakshmi, Amanda Suarez, Pasa, Emma Garcia, And all those whose names we do not know. We would like to observe a minute of silence. In remembrance of our lost trans final. Thank you.[00:04:00] Thank you, Tracy. [00:04:30] So now we're going to be lighting candles and riding on chalk. If you want to speak just make sure that you make a line and stay up here. So yeah, thanks. Yeah, uh, hi, hi everyone. Um, Yeah, I'm, uh, I'm here to, uh, Yeah, to, to acknowledge the, uh, Yeah, the, the passing of, uh, Yeah, the, the murder of Ex Fanatic, but [00:05:00] I'm I'm Mainly just here because To be honest, I, I, I'm afraid Yeah, that's um, that, you know, what happens next, it's, it's the thing, you know, that I, you know, that I imagine every time I, I use the bathroom and I, I'm sure I'm, I'm not alone in that.[00:05:30] And um, yeah, while uh, Oklahoma, maybe, maybe far away, it, it doesn't feel like that. So, a lot of the time hearing, um, things that have been said, um, by politicians and also just by people in my life. Um, [00:06:00] yeah, I'm, uh, And I'm, I'm scared, you know, that maybe a few, in a few years down the track we, we might see something like this happen here and, yeah. That's, that's awful. That, that terrifies me. Yeah, uh, thank you. Um, I just want to keep mine short and simple pretty much what [00:06:30] I wrote on the candle was that list of names is Terrifyingly long, but it is also one many name too long. There's also one name is one too long One name one person dead is too many dead Um, and I will never forget next and I will never forget these people because they are a part of us And yeah I [00:07:00] think I can speak for more than one person when I say that being young and Queer and trans is terrifying. And especially in an age where we can get all this news from across the world so easily We were way too aware of our own mortality, even if it's not in our own country, but it soon could be Um, the whole reason I like actually paid attention Like, well, it's because I always pay attention, but the next Benedict got so much press. And looking at, and like, reading about them, [00:07:30] is, they were the same age as me. They look like so many of my friends. Um, and it's just, am I allowed to swear? And it's fucks. Um, and that should not be my thoughts when I read the news. Is that person the same age as me? They look like my friends. Um, yeah, that's all. I mean, just to continue on, on what my friend said, um, we were in [00:08:00] music class when they brought up what had happened and we had read the article together and I just couldn't believe that it had happened because as Jay said, they were our age. They were. Like me, non binary, and I am lucky to be mostly cis passing, so it would be less likely to happen to me, and I just generally don't go into bathrooms, because I'm scared of that happening to me. Because also, [00:08:30] like, cis people say that we are the people who are harassing people in bathrooms, when the reality is that they are the ones harassing people in bathrooms, and they are the ones forcing us into the wrong bathrooms. They say. That, you know, trans women aren't women and should be in the men's restrooms when they shouldn't be. And by saying that trans people should be in the restrooms of their assigned sex, they're also pushing trans men into women's bathrooms and then putting them in danger as well. [00:09:00] And I am just honestly scared that this is actually going to come to New Zealand. And I hope for me and my friends and the generation of trans and queer youth in front of me that it doesn't get here because America is fucked over with their trans hate and it really shouldn't be like that.[00:09:30] Kia ora everyone, um, I am an American exchange student, uh, at Vic. It was absolutely devastating to read the news of something that happened in my own home. And I don't have anything original to say, necessarily. Um, and I wanted to make sure I got my facts right, but, um, I'm sure some of you have seen a video of a man named Dan, who has a transgender son. And I'm simply here to reiterate his words, that his child [00:10:00] is not filth, and we are not filth. Our family, our found family, is not filth. Filth. Thank you. Kia ora. I'm also an American exchange student. Next was murdered about, I believe, two weeks into me being here in New Zealand, um, and just like you all stated, they looked like [00:10:30] my friends back home. All I wanted to do was hug them, um, and I work with queer youth. I have been a queer youth, um, um, And I wish I didn't know the details of who Nex was. And I wish I also got to meet them at a gay bar when they were too young to be there. And we just pretended like that was okay. Um, that's, that's a situation in which I would have, uh, wanted to get to know Nex and all of their quirks. And, um, I want to also honor that they are indigenous, uh, to [00:11:00] Turtle Island. And that identity is a really big part of their experience. Um, yeah, and I You know, as someone from America that lives with this, uh, queer fear, I guess, um, there is also such a beautiful queer community, and I'm so grateful for that being a universal thing. When I saw that you all were honoring necks, I was so unbelievably touched, um, and so heavy in grief, but also just so [00:11:30] touched, um. And I, you know, in moments like this, like, I am so grateful for queer community and being able to look at all of your beautiful queer faces and just be glad to be here. So, thank you all for gathering in honor of NEXT. Kia ora. I, um, obviously this has been on my mind. I mean, even before it happened to Nex, this is an ongoing thing that I, that haunts me and [00:12:00] haunts us all. Um, I work in a public service role and I work with a lot of school children. Uh, and I'm visibly queer and like, I wear my badges and I, I see the queer kids. Who interact with me, and I see the recognition in their eyes, and This whole time, since, since I heard about Next, I'm haunted by them, [00:12:30] in the, the faces of these, of, of these queer kids. And it's just, this like, never ending horror. And hope, and joy, and it's, it's the biggest mess, and I, This isn't a choice that everyone can make, but I choose to remain visible, I choose to stay here, I choose to be here, and I refuse to give up ground, because if me, sitting where I sit, and being [00:13:00] visible to those queer kids, gives them a reason to stay, gives them a reason to hold their head up high, I'm gonna keep doing it. Um, cause that's what kept me here, that's what. You know, I think we can all relate to that. And yeah, so I'm not going anywhere. Ah, kia [00:13:30] ora, um, I just wanted to acknowledge, uh, Zena Campbell, who was murdered in Pōneke in 2018. Um, and I also wanted to voice that, uh, half of all trans victims of murder are sex workers. Uh, so the struggle for trans liberation is also a struggle for sex workers. Thank you. I just want to say something short and [00:14:00] something that I very firmly believe in and it's that queer rights are human rights and that we all deserve a better world where we are all accepted for who we are. Thank you. I've been thinking about names today and how choosing my name as a trans person was the start of my life and how [00:14:30] I shouldn't know these people's names because they should still be alive. And the amount of lives lost to violence whose names I will never know. Um, that's why I wrote this today. To give oneself a name is to know who you are. To give yourself your own blessing to exist. And in a world that doesn't want you to, to create your own self is a radical act. No wonder they want to destroy us. Us who know who we are and are bold enough to know our own name. To shed who the [00:15:00] world tells you to be and be yourself instead. That is the beginning of our freedom. Um, kia ora everyone. Um, this is a bit scary for so many people, but um, yeah, I'm quite emotional. Um, I don't really know quite What to say except, um, I agree with everything that's been said and [00:15:30] queer rights and trans rights are human rights and I similarly to everyone else like, um, a lot of the most important people in my life and the most beautiful incredible people are my trans friends and I have so many just sorry um, it's just absolutely devastating that um, what's happening in the rest of the world and um just trying to be a little bit hopeful and Honestly, so grateful that we have such a strong and supportive queer community [00:16:00] in Aotearoa, and I just think it's really beautiful, um, all of you guys for coming along and just showing our continued solidarity and support for our trans whānau. It's so important to keep fighting, so important to say their names, and yeah, rest in peace and power. Um, I lost a friend to trans violence, or violence against trans people last year, um, And, I'm [00:16:30] gonna keep this quick, but I want to acknowledge them and acknowledge Nex, and say that we're going to keep fighting for their sakes as well as our own. Uh, I only really have one thing to say, and that is trans rights are human rights, trans rights are human rights, and trans rights are human fucking rights.[00:17:00] Hi, um, I'm Asami. Um, I'm also genderfluid. Um, when I learned necks died, and I also learned that they're genderfluid, it kind of hit a bit hard. too close to home, especially when I saw the video of his police interview, um, seeing them be a lot like me, like, I would have reacted the same in that situation.[00:17:30] Yeah, that hit a bit too close to home. Necks deserve to live. This is ridiculous. The amount of trans people that get killed for dumb shit. Okay, we deserve to live. And I'm tired of, like, living in fear. And I don't want to have to lose any friends because of the death of transphobes and people who can't seem to Sorry, I'm just so pissed off. But yeah, trans lives matter and rest in power, necks. You deserve better.[00:18:00] My name is Lelio. I'm older than a lot of people here, and I wish I didn't have to be here. It's been 40 years of this shit happening again, and again, and again. So many lives on this wall, just from this year. So many people lost. And yet, we're still here. We ran Posie Parker off when she came to these shores. She tucked her tail and fled. [00:18:30] We can fight this, and we can win. And even still being here, still being alive, that is, your own victories. Each day, one after another. I wish there were fewer names on that list. I wish we'd been able to change it more, change it faster. But we are still here, and we will give nothing to those who wish to destroy us. Because trans rights are human rights, and we all deserve to live [00:19:00] safely. I've heard from many people tonight that, um, that we feel scared. Um, particularly when people's lives are taken. Um, don't. It frightens us, and I think that's absolutely valid. Um, I'm somewhat of an optimist, and I've seen over the last, particularly over the last five years in this city, the way the trans community has [00:19:30] grown, um, and the way that we've supported each other. Um, quite often in queer spaces, it can be hard to really Love one another because we're so spiky from having to put our spikes out against the world. But I genuinely believe that no matter what people bring, that we can defend each other and that we will do so. Um, on Saturday there are two big pride events happening in the city. There's a, um, more commercial celebratory parade in the evening. Um, and that's, that definitely has a place. Um, [00:20:00] in, in the morning there is a The Hikoi, um, which is less of a celebration and very much not a commercial event, um, that is more of a protest march, um, and that will be kicking off here at 10. 30am on Saturday, and that will be a chance for us to take that, the feelings that we have of like fear, um, and anger and turn it into something collectively together. Um, and so, I would just encourage people, if you feel confident to do so, um, [00:20:30] turn, and you don't have anything else on, turn, um, turn up here at 10. 30am on Saturday, and we will support one another, and we will march together. Um, kia ora. Kia ora. I just want to say thank you to everyone speaking, and Naming people that are lost because there's this is just not even everyone that we have lost. This is just the ones that we were able or applauded. So. [00:21:00] Oh yeah, so thank thank thank you everyone. Um, so yeah, I'll head the mic over to Isla to close. Uh, hi, um, I'm actually just gonna remix it a little bit because I also have something to say, um, and I said this last year when we were here for, um, Brianna, and I know a few of you were here as well, um, and I just think it's important that, uh, I don't know, you hear this. It's easy to feel hopeless in a time like this. Like no matter what we do, we are [00:21:30] still hated and discriminated against. I know that when I first heard about yet another killing, I felt hollow. Why should we have to die just because we're different? What can we do to fight back? Many of us here are working to further the rights and freedoms of trans folk already, but for those who do not know where to start, or do not have the capacity to, simply living and existing as we are is an active form of rebellion. To find love and joy in life as a trans person destroys their narrative. So take [00:22:00] care of yourselves, take care of each other, because our survival is our strength. Rest in peace, necks. It's horrible what the world has done to you. Tēnei wā kanoko whakamauri. Mātou i rātou i aroha. Tēnei te awa o tātou tīpuna o ngā atua. Um, so this is just, uh, [00:22:30] some water that in Māori custom we use after tapu ceremonies, uh, to cleanse yourselves. Uh, obviously we probably don't have enough for everyone, uh, but if you would like to come and cleanse your hands, you can use some of this. Um, so I will. Just plop that there. Uh, and hope that everyone gets home safe.

IRN: 3498
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ATL REF: OHDL-004674
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093064
TITLE: Remembering the Evergreen Coffee House and Chrissy Witoko
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VOICES: Chanel Hati; Des Cooper; Drew Hadwen; Fiona Lam Sheung; Gaye Hawkins; Jacquie Grant; Kay'la Riarn; Kevin Haunui; Leilani Sio; Pasi Daniels; Renee Paul; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; 2020s; Alfies 2; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bistro bar; Bojangles; Ca d'Oro (Auckland); Carmen Rupe; Chanel Hati; Chrissy Witoko; Cuba Street; Dana de Milo; Des Cooper; Doodle Inn; Dorian Society; Doug Timbs; Drew Hadwen; Evergreen Coffee House; Fiona Lam Sheung; Gaye Hawkins; Hastings; Jacquie Grant; Jacquie’s Coffee Bar; Kay'la Riarn; Kevin Haunui; Knutcracker Suite; Leilani Sio; Les Girls (Sydney); Liza Minnelli; Lower Hutt; Luamanuvao Winnie Laban; Marion Street; Michael Jackson; Mongrel Mob; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; Ngāti Kahungunu; Pasi Daniels; Powder Puff (referred to as the Powder Poof, Wellington); Purple Onion (Sydney); Ray Johns; Renee Paul; Royal Oak Hotel; Samoa; Sorrento Coffee Lounge; Sue Timbs; Sunset Strip; Sydney; Tavern bar (Royal Oak Hotel); Tete a Tete; The Balcony / Le Balcon; The Owl's Retreat; The Purple Onion; Tīwhanawhana; Vivian Street; Wellington; Wellington Museum; alcohol; alcohol laws; alcohol license; catering; clothing; collage; community; cracking it; drag; drugs; exotic dancer; family; gangs; hidings; home brew; jukebox; kapa haka; midnight movies; mirror; news queen; police; queen; sailor; sex work; ship mole; speakeasy; special coffee; striptease; toasted sandwich; trans; transgender; wharves; window
DATE: 2 July 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: Wellington Museum, 3 Jervois Quay, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: February 2024
TEXT: A nō reira mā kuia tīmata a tātou nei hui. A nō reira tēnā tātou i runga i te kaupapa i whakapaiti nei tātou i tēnei wā. A hei tīmata a tātou nei ahui, a tēnei karakia mā tātou hei tīmata. Hei tau nei ki runga i tātou katoa te wairua ngā mātua tūpuna. Ngā rātou i whakataka tō te ara hei hikurina mā tātou ngā uri. I whakatōki a tātou nākau ki ngā tikanga hei arata ki [00:00:30] a tātou. Kia nākau nui ki te hapāi a tātou māhi katoa i rōto i te pono, i te tika, i te māramatanga. Me te aroha anō tētahi ki tētahi ko erā erongo, whakairi ake ki runga kia tīna. Haumi e hui e. Nō reira, tēnā tātou. Tēnā tātou i runga kaupapu i whakawhaiti nei mātou tātou i tēnei wā. Kia koutou, kua tāi tawhiti mai, nau mai, hara mai. [00:01:00] Whakatau mai ki runga i tēnei parirau o Te Atiawa, o te iwi kāinga. No reira ki roto nei ngā iwi o waho e noho nei, no reira nau mai haramai. Whakatau mai. Nau mai, mauria aitua e kore rātou e warawarutia. Ko e nei mātou. [00:02:00] They call. Tēnā tātou katoa. [00:02:30] Kahuri au ki te reo. Did he get that? Welcome everyone. I won't say much more. I'll leave it to our distinguished guests to talk about the kaupapa this afternoon. But, to give me a chance to settle down, I think it'll be a good idea to have a little bit of a waiata. Because I know I've got a few people here that can help with that waiata. So And I just raced to get the guitar, so I'm going to play it now anyway, [00:03:00] so, kapai? That's a tough one, right? Fakataka te o kiteru Fakataka? [00:03:30] Fakataka te o kiteru Kia matara tāra ki tāpū E [00:04:00] hiake anā te atakū E tio, e tio E hūka, e hūna E hau, e hau Tīre, mariona Mō te aiai, [00:04:30] hei? Kia ora, whakataau Whakapakateau, ki te uru Tīte toa Whakapakateau [00:06:00] It is my absolute honor in which to, um, help facilitate with Drew this afternoon. We are in the presence of incredible icons within the audience and on our panel. Um, for for [00:06:30] this session. I want your orders, , meet someone in the room. You have, you do not know. Introduce yourself, say your name. And share with them what brings you to this space today. We will give you two whole minutes to do this. Ready? Go! Kia ora e te whanau. Thank you for making time to connect with those who are in the room. [00:07:00] Over to you, Drew. So, yeah, thank you for that. And there will be time at the end of today's session to connect again. Kia ora everyone, I'm Drew, as Sv has mentioned. A brief, um, run through. We're going to hear from some of our icons here today. Um, we're going to listen to them share their memories, stories of Auntie Chrissy and of the Evergreen. And there will be toasties and special coffees. Um, then after [00:07:30] that we will go up to level 2 where the, um, the sign that used to be outside the Evergreen is exhibited here. And, um, we'll remember those who've passed, um, together up there. And then we'll come back downstairs, um, Kevin will close off for us. And for people that want to talk to your new friends some more, or just ask some questions, or perhaps share your own memories, there'll be a space for that. And, [00:08:00] um, Leilani will project an awesome slideshow here on the back wall, so we'll turn the chairs around. But, yeah, just, um, welcome. It's great to see. So many faces from the past. Um, but it's also neat to see some rangatahi here. Um, and it's neat to see people who will just potentially be hearing some of the stories of um, Aunty Chrissie who's so special to so many of us for the first time. So welcome. Kia ora, um, my name's [00:08:30] Kaylin Rianna. I'm from the later period of Evergreen. Um, for those who are familiar with Evergreen, it spans about 60 years. As I understand, when I sort of come out, um, and got involved with Evergreen and what was going on, the year I come out, I discovered that, um, that Evergreen Area was taking place when I was born, up north. And that was, yes, [00:09:00] 60 years ago. But I'd just like to thank, um, Some people have traveled from far away, and we have got someone here who is, like, from the beginning, so that kōrero will evolve eventually, and give you all of the background. But yeah, our kōrero is about, um, our time, how our community was, the trans community, what have you, sex workers, etc. But yeah, so, [00:09:30] thank you. Thank you Kayla. Okay. Um, yeah, I'm just here to celebrate memories of Chrissy and Evergreen and share our stories. Refuse, um. [00:10:00] 1983, when I first arrived on the scene, there were still things happening, but there was a long way to go, and we'll cover that once we get into the kōrero. So, kia ora. Kia ora koutou e nau mai, haere mai. Ka rau e te tai mai ki konei. So just a little bit of English. Translate that. I'm also from KA, [00:10:30] and on my mum's side, from the Gson Harbor, and it's wonderful to be here today. I've. So forward to and seeing people like you. Jackie, you are an icon of Admir, so Kura Jackie for coming and to all of you, too many of you to single out. But now I love you. I always love you Kura.[00:11:00] Uh, my name is Chanel Hatti and, um, I am of descent on my dad's side. On my mom's side, I'm, um, UA and I'm really honored to be here today and to see, um, and to see faces, um, [00:11:30] I haven't seen for a while. And young faces, which is really, really, um, really nice for me because, um, uh, you know. Young people want to know what it was like back in, back in the day and, um, it wasn't, it wasn't easy but, um, we're going to let you know those, um, that, that, that, that, that, that korero. So, uh, um, and, um, like you said, sis, it's really nice to see you here, Jackie. You really are truly an icon. Uh, and, um, ngā mihi nui kia [00:12:00] koutou katoa, nō reira tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā tātou katoa. Kia ora. Kia ora. Tēnā koutou. Tēnā koutou. Tēnā koutou. Tēnā koutou. I'm feeling that we need to invite Jackie into this space. Jackie, can you go live? I just, I would like to vacate my seat and I'll just take a side seat. If you would like to please join our panel, I feel you've got so many great stories in which to share. Thank you. Would [00:12:30] you like to introduce yourself, Jackie? Kia ora, I'm Jackie Grant, Ngāti Pākehā from Hokitika. Um, and I guess I came on the scene in Wellington about 1962, 63 when I met Chris. Um, so yeah, I've sort of been around on the fringes ever since. Beautiful. I'm just going to go a bit further with that, Jackie. In [00:13:00] 1962, take us through the streets of Wellington. What did Cuba Street look like? What did Vivian Street look like? And what were we wearing? Well, I can answer the wearing question, we were wearing very little on the road. But 1962, 63, it didn't look a lot different. Um, the cars went up Cuba Street. Um, it was a very free, [00:13:30] open place. Um, I came from Australia with, with three other, um, trans, or queens as we called ourselves in those days. Um, and for us it was total freedom. The only gay club that was going back then was probably the Purple Onion was the first one. Um, which was started off as a drag club, um, and then turned into a strip club. And Passy, who owned it, is still around in Wellington, so, [00:14:00] you know, they're all still around. But the street didn't look a lot different. Little shops, boutique y type shops. Um, people dressed Not a lot differently. Wellington's always been sort of fairly easy on the dress sense, I guess. High fashion was never, um, its forte, except for the glamour queens that were in the shows, that were in the clubs and things later on. [00:14:30] Um, well, we always tried to look a bit better than everyone else, I guess. Um, Can you tell us about the first time you met Chrissie, and what first experience has made you think of her? Well, first time I met Chris was at the Bistro Bar. And I don't know if any of you know where the Bistro Bar was, but it was the Royal Oak Hotel. And on the corner, uh, what's the street that the [00:15:00] Royal Oak was on? Dickson. Dickson Street. Um, there was the Meats Jewelers on the front. Then you came along that Long Dixon Street a bit and you got into the Tavern Bar, which was a gay bar. Um, it wasn't advertised as a gay bar, but it was. And two barmen there back in the 60s were Claude and Emery Toft. Um, they ran that bar. And then you went into the, I don't know how you would describe it, like a, [00:15:30] like a barn. It was, it was huge. Virtually half the block of Dixon Street right down to Pigeon Park. And it was called the Bistro Bar. And The queens were in one spot, the shipmoles were in another spot, the hookers were in another spot, the hoods were in another spot, the gays were in the tavern bar and they'd sort of saunter through every now and then to have a look at what trade they could [00:16:00] find. It was just this huge melting pot of different people. Um, there was the shipmole girls with Gwen and Sonia. And all her lot. And then there was Chris and her lot. Anyway, I'd got into there. I'd not long been, got here from Australia and, and sort of trying to find my feet. And when I met Chris, well I'd seen them in the bar. And um, I'd heard, I think Tarpany was there at that time. You could hear her, you didn't [00:16:30] see her, but you sort of heard her beforehand. Um, and I was out waiting for a taxi to go back to where I was staying. And Chris was there and she said, Oh, you're one of them. Australian Queens, aren't you? And I said, yeah. And she said, well come with us, we're going to a party. So off we went, um, to Geraldine's house. And that was where I met Geraldine. And Jerry Sheppard. And we had, we had um, boil up. And, and the guitars were out. And I'd been, coming from [00:17:00] Australia and totally different culture. I'd never seen any of this. And I was just absolutely fascinated with it. And, and I loved the culture. You know, I went back to Geraldine's many, many times over the years for that pot. And the pot was, in those days we were a community, and it's all way pre law reform and all those sort of, all those sort of times, so we had to be a community because it was sort of them against us, but it was more probably us against them [00:17:30] than them against us when you really boil it right down. But we did, we had a community and we all had each other's backs and looked after each other. And I think we've lost that these days. But yeah, that was sort of early Wellington and, um, I'm sure people will get into more things. Jackie. Should we, maybe, start here? [00:18:00] I was hoping to be last. Okay, there's a real conversation for us. Perhaps, you know, you could, um, talk to us about when you first met Chrissy, um, How the evergreen was so important, some of, any of your memories and stories you know. Well, yeah, well I think, I think, um, the evergreen, um, which is, which is, is when I came here. But there was also Carmen's Coffee Bar, which is the era before I came here. And these places are really important because, [00:18:30] um, they were, um, they function really, um, as safe spaces. You know, and, um, when, um, And when I came here, it was, um, you know, we, we, being, being trans, um, the girls were all out on the street, and You know, you'll find that anywhere where there are sex workers, there's always a little space for them to go when times get tough, and people get too torturous, and [00:19:00] the Evergreen was like that. So, um, it was a safe space for us, and Chrissy was, um, she was, she was, she was nice, but she was, um, she was strict. She was strict. Don't, don't, don't, don't, don't go there with her, you know, but, but, but respect her. And, um, there were a few times I, I saw her toss people out. And sisters that were being naughty. But, um, you know, and, [00:19:30] uh, and saying that in those days, you had to be your own security. Because sometimes, because the police weren't there and, you know, and, um, you had to, um, yeah, just, um, just take care of your space and, and, you know, just let people, um, people know, especially the girls, this is for you. You know, this is your space. Don't disrespect it. Or you're not coming back in. And, um, there were a lot of good times, I remember. I remember it functioned, um, [00:20:00] functioned, um, as, um, early, early in the evening, it was, it functioned for the boys and the girls. So they had it in the evenings. And then as it got later and later, it would be a safe space for this, for all the girls out on the streets. To, um, to, to come, come in and have a coffee when, when, when, when, You know, because there were really torturous people out there and you just wanted to just get away from there and um, you know, the reason that we, um, all, that most of us girls came to [00:20:30] Wellington, well I know certainly for myself, is that um, when you come from a very conservative place, you're looking for like minded people, you know, and I think it's same for the boys, you know, you come to a place where, where it's a lot more acceptable. And that's why I came to, um, to Wellington, and I fell in love with the place, and I, and, and just, just the people, the people, how the, how kind the, the people were compared to Auckland and the other places that, that, that I came from. I mean, in, [00:21:00] in, in Auckland they had coffee bars, they had one called the Kedora, the Kedora that, uh, trans girls would go to, and that was, well, it didn't have the same feeling as the coffee bar that, that Chris had, um, you just, it was just a coffee bar, but, um, The police always had access to that, to the girls, you know, come in and they would just all disappear and take off to the toilets and change their clothes and it was quite scary times back there. And, um, I remember, um, I remember Chris had a few functions in her coffee bar, [00:21:30] um, I remember when she had her 50th birthday at the majestic, well deserved of course because when Carmen left, um, and therefore, um, Australia, her coffee bowl was in exactly the same place. So, it was like one, one girl was leaving and then another one was coming in to cater to the next generation that were coming, you know. And, um, yeah, the Evergreen lasted for 20, 25 good, good years [00:22:00] and had some really, really good times in there with, um, you know, and the people that worked there. Like, like, like Dears, you know, you know, Dears, you know, you'd go in there and there was always a smile and a smile. Rosa Patterson was another one that worked in there. She was, you know, just. Just, just a place where you could feel, feel at home, feel at home in a world where, um, where everything was, um, even for the boys, illegal, you know, and, um, [00:22:30] I can understand how, um, um, living in the 70s, you know, um, and, and, and Jackie's talking about where in that time you had to conform to a standard, and if you didn't, I, you know, like Carmen for example, you were stigmatized. Discriminated, and yet Carmen, she took all that with a smile, you know, and uh, but that was that era, and then Chris came along, but she was a little bit different, uh, Chris, she had a whole new [00:23:00] style about her, and um, yeah, I just found her, and it was really sad when she passed away, because the Evergreen would never ever be the same, even if somebody took it, uh, that, that, that whole. That whole atmosphere was gone. But just just just to know that there was a safe space for us. And today, with the with the young people, um, you know, with the creation of technology, people don't seem to talk face to face. [00:23:30] It's always online. And I think that's what Titan made us tight in those days is that we always saw each other. We didn't have phones and, you know, texting and all that kind of thing. And I think that's what What, what made everything tighter back in those days. Not saying that it does today, but that's the language of young people today. It's all about online and um, there's nothing wrong with that. And I think these young people are wonderful today, they're, they're, they're sharp, you know, they're, you know, they're very driven and um, [00:24:00] you know, and, and in a world where it's free but you're still, you know, you're still on, you know, you're still on your guard, it's good. It's good because back in our days we um, just had to take what comes. And that was that, but everybody has rights these days, so it's a lot easier. But um, I wish we had a coffee bar for, for today. And I would love to see what that would look like. With all the young people, it would be great. So yeah, so, thank you. Drew, can I just pick up on what Chanel said about [00:24:30] style? And back when I first met Chris and Gay, Gay will know what I'm going to talk about. Chris was so out there, it just wasn't funny. And, and, you know, early 1960s, Chris had bleached white, she's a Maori boy, bleached white hair, Um, a very feminine sort of top on, this is the first time I ever met her, Um, tights, sort of stopping tights, she was dressed as a boy, she wasn't in drag. Um, in the [00:25:00] 1960s, that was outrageous, and a Gladstone bag under, under her arm. And, you know where she worked? On the bloody wharf. She worked on the wharf as a, as a cook in the kitchens on the wharf. Um, and her friend Karina, who, who was also, um, Dressed very similar, wasn't it? And, you know, Chris said to me, Oh, this is my friend Corrina, she plays rugby. You know, we work on the wharf. But that, they were, they were so out there and so outrageous. And nobody [00:25:30] really cared. She just had that personality. But she was out before out was fashionable. That's for sure. Yes, I'm going to ask you a question. If you can take our audience through what the evergreen coffeehouse looked like. For all of us who've been in this place, had coffees, had toasted sandwiches, had other things, Um, we, we all know that whole space, right? From the beginning, to the toilets, to the [00:26:00] jukebox. So for everybody who has not been in that cafe, can you take them through the decor? Well, getting in through the door was the first trick. There used to be a little wee seat, and it was double lock. And you would have to pull the grid back. Middle window. Five dollar. No money, no joy. And this is what the security had to be. We were a [00:26:30] business, first of all. And then just the community and everything that was supported. So you'd come in through the door, that would be loft. And there'd be a little wee area where a heater would be. And then on the first table on your right in the window, and it was a huge window, literally from about four feet, I think, right to the ceiling. And you could see out onto the park, you could see down the road, you could watch people come back. For those who are looking for clients, yes, [00:27:00] they will go by. And everybody will be looking in. Because the milieu and the people that were there were just so interesting. There wasn't a night that went by that there wasn't something that caught your eye. And then we come through into another area. There were two more seating arrangements before you got to the bar. And there were mirrors strategically placed. I didn't need eyes in the back of my head. You could look straight ahead down to the toilet and know [00:27:30] exactly what was going on in that corner and that corner at the same time. It was really well, um, kind of decor was, ah, well, eclectic. I think that would be the word. It was just a real shock to the sense for the first time when you walked in. Yeah. And then when you thought you'd be used to that, you get your coffee, sandwich, and then you walk through into the back. [00:28:00] And as you go through the door, you walk into a little wee space, and then you open up the back door, and it was a totally different scene altogether. Black light, so neons and everything, the bright lights and everything would be going on, the posters that had been put up around. Um, advertising different kinds of events and venues over the seasons that had been through there. And then the back bar came around and there was a bit of a podium you stepped up onto. And there was trellising. [00:28:30] Um, and once again, wall of mirrors. So, from the back you could see the front, and from the front you could see the back. It was all about keeping people safe, being aware. Oh yeah, that one's had a bit too much to drink. Oh look out, that one's going to roll over there. This one's up to a bit in there. But, you did it in such a way that you weren't walking over people's maunga. It was there and it was really inclusive for the time. [00:29:00] And it was just amazing to just see people come in, and they'd sit at the bar, and they'd start talking, and of course I'd start pouring. And the more I poured, the more they'd talk, so hey, I'm on a win win here. Um, what else was there? Oh, out the back, the collages. Two private little tables. Well, yes, little private tables and they were sort of raised in one area so it would block off down the [00:29:30] back. And then you could go down and around and then past the jukebox and then into the toilets. Um, just amazing. And of course there were the exits. Which later on became Pretty well used. So we would lock off the front of the street, and if there were any problems, then we could get people out, and lock the problem in, should there be any cause to do that. So it was, um, yeah. Very, [00:30:00] very interesting kind of thing. And it never changed. It was almost like it was stuck in time. And yet it was still very progressive and relevant. It was like ageless. And intimate. It was amazing. Sympathetic lighting until six in the morning. Laughter Yeah, then everybody had Scarpa. Laughter Laughter So, lots of wonderful [00:30:30] times. Can you tell us about the first time you met Chris? Well, yes. The first time I met Chris, actually, Chris walked in. I was working with Rosa as an exotic dancer. Yeah, no, not a mousetrapper. I was an exotic dancer. And Chris had made a comment, because a few of the older school Quinta come through, and they were all testing [00:31:00] me out. What's the metre of this person? Oh, that's not a brooch, she's a girl, look at the way she swings those hips. This is the quiet here, I'm trying to focus on getting some kind of, be there. And um, Chris made an inquiry to Rosa, and then Rosa introduced me, and then slowly but surely I went through that one. And to this day, I still don't know what it was that Chris saw in me. It was just one of those unspoken things. We [00:31:30] clicked. It was just one of those things. Yep, we clicked. And that was the beginning of a lifetime. Uh, professional working relationship. And then later on It became more in becoming integrated into the family and working with the community. And so the Kahununi connection for the coast and everything was always through. We would go through and support however we could on the [00:32:00] marae. So you'd have all the girls out one corner cracking it, and everybody else out the corner doing something else. The money would come in, we're on, we're on the road, and then 6 o'clock on the marae, we'd just put the koha down. And as soon as Chris would arrive, and it didn't matter where she went, she was maung. It was amazing. They just had one person, and could whakapapa through to anyone and everybody. Very, very acute mind when it came to the knowledge and the history of the backgrounds. [00:32:30] And I think that was something that drew me closer to Chris because, having been adopted out of Māoridom and a culturalised and brought up in a European family, I didn't have any understanding of the reo. I knew nothing of, uh, te kao Māori. And that's Not too late, you young ones. You can get to be 56 and still learn. Yeah, so it's um, That was the kind of thing of how I met Chris. [00:33:00] Kia ora Des. Renee. Hello. Kia ora everyone, um, Wow. When I first met Chris, she asked me where I was from. I had to go on in and she goes, Oh, not another smart mouth. And I'm going, Oh, hell, it's not my fault you look like Paddington Bear. But we clicked straight away in that, [00:33:30] and she goes, And um, how I looked at Chris, to her, to me she was my matriarch. In that, because you know, I missed Carmen's era, I just called the farewell party for Carmen. And that was it, sort of thing, but Chris was always here. And I come down. And so she was my matriarch, and um, I really loved Evergreen, because whenever they did a bust on the streets and that, I'd just go and sit in Evergreen, sit in the corner there, by the window, and do my [00:34:00] business for her. And just look at the regulars, I was too scared the others might be undercover cops. And um, but yeah, it was a really, really cool place to go to, and um, I think we were just one big whanau there. And you know, and It was such a safe haven for us and um, yeah, saw a lot of things there, saw a lot of things happen but you never did it in front of Chris. And [00:34:30] the next night you'd go out and you'd knock on the door, am I 11? How long my bath for? But she, yeah, she was really cool to us. If you ever needed help, you just had to go to Chris. You know, she was always there for you, and that's why I looked so highly up to her. I just thought she was an amazing person, and what she did for us, you know, giving us that safe place, and [00:35:00] yeah, I think that was amazing. If it wasn't for her, we wouldn't have nothing. You know, so she did a lot of things for us. Do you remember when you first met Aunty Chrissy? Aye? Yeah, I told you. Oh, did you? I'm glad everyone's listening. Have another smoke. Oh my, oh my gosh. I'm so sorry for that. [00:35:30] Okay. I'll just like sit here and blush for a little while. Okay. How about we move on to Kayla then, aye? Kayla, no one's asked you yet, do you remember when you met Aunty Chrissie? Yeah, um, when I first met Chris, Chrissie, it's by coincidence because I was involved with something else and they said, well, you know, since she, well, I, that's part of the fair and he kicked out, so I didn't let [00:36:00] Kaka, so when I got to Wellington, um, they were telling me about this place. And they said, oh, these people, and they wear these amazing outfits. I said, I really don't want to be in a crowd of women. Oh, no, they can't. But, you know, I went down there, and the nightlife area, that's what they called it, and the Evergreen. They said, you've got to go there first. So I walked in the door, um, [00:36:30] Yes, I do remember that. You walked in the door, the table here, raised one there, one there, and the counter was here, where Des would be serving the coffee, taking orders, etc. And I walked in and Chrissie was there sitting in the seat, like this. Are you new? Hi! Yeah. But, like with Renee, we kind of, um, Um, [00:37:00] initial korero, we clipped, and she was like, she knew everything about what the girls do. Just been welcoming, she was very welcoming, very accommodating. Um, yeah, I actually have been barred from there. I think I was drunk because I can't remember. But um, to me, I had a different view of the whole place after like, Going there for so many years. It's like, [00:37:30] walk in and sit down, cup of tea. I'll sit there doing my work, go out on the rori. Um, the whole area, Evergreen was like the central part. You'd go in there first, then you'd go out. But see, and they had Marion Street, and now that, Marion Street's got all these apartment buildings. But before then, before they built them, that was an empty car park. And on the other side of Kerber Street was a [00:38:00] Sunset Strip Nightclub upstairs. They play the music so loud. When we sit there in Marion Street, we have our own nightclub. On the street there. And, um, We have some girls doing the poi, entertainment. We have some of the girls who sung acapella. Mariah. Yeah. Isn't it Mariah? There's Mariah. Jay. Jay. Joe. Joe Chanel. Miss Joe. Miss [00:38:30] Joe Chanel. Serena when she was drunk. Serena. But, I mean, yeah. That was in the community and it was like, people on the outside could see what we have. I don't understand, but as Chanel said like, they were torturous people. The longer I was out there on the area, it progressed, then we had gangs come in. But, [00:39:00] we had learned how to be ourselves, stand up. By going to Evergreen, seeing how things work there and , you know, chats with Christy and that and um, like you'd have a staunch gang member on one hand. Yeah. And a person working. What take would have it that would stand up. You have to stand up. So, and she'll, Shauna was right about the police. They like, turn a blind eye or pick on you. [00:39:30] But we did later on in the years have two. Constables. They're actually quite nice, like around Christmastime, I'd see you walking. Have you cracked it yet? No? Oh, there's a cloak down the road for you. Yeah, they're actually sociable. But, when everyone evolved through to what, as I said before, I was in the later stage, and it just become natural, and then we had the gay community moving in, and off the bar they set up, etc. [00:40:00] Um, I initially come out. To Wellington. And there's a place called the Dorian Society. For those who go back there. And um, there was that one part. And then they had Auckland clubs come down like Alfies and both Jangos, what have you. And the funny thing is, they were like, oh this is our club, blah blah, you're a visitor. Yeah, really? We'd go to every, and guess who would turn up there late at night? Everyone from those clubs would stop in there. [00:40:30] And it's just sociable. And in regards to um, early morning lighting. Once or twice I remember that place closing about 8 o'clock in the morning. It's just like, oh yeah, lock the door, sit in the back. But it was good. Uh, the front part was coffee and sort of business. Back part was socialising and um. There's certain ladies you knew not to avoid because [00:41:00] once they start you have to sit there and listen. But yeah, um, but that's why I actually got a sense of family and from that I learned to stand up to my own family. They knew what I was doing and they'll put me down as they did. And it's like, yeah, I guess you pay for this for you and that. It's like, you see, just try and normalise. But the good thing that come out of it from the girls. Is that we didn't go downhill. We went uphill. We [00:41:30] work at offices. We do this and that. So we blended, yeah. But evergreen, yeah. It's one of those things, it's like a steep thing to do. Always be there. And Chrissy was, yeah, I was at her 50th. That was funny. Because, um, I do catering and stuff. I was in the kitchen, passing a tray around, because I'm six foot something. And that's the carriage downstairs, so she said make sure they have something to eat. So I come out and there [00:42:00] was a big crowd of people going like this. All these people about this high say, and I was about this, and the train was up there. I went, ha ha. I went right downstairs and come back and, you know, it's good. The girls got together, they had a kapa haka group there performed, Chrissy was there regal as in her throne, but you know, it was beautiful, good, yeah, [00:42:30] like when you sit down and think about it, really emotional memories from that place. And yeah, not covering it, but yeah, the fights, arguments, gang members, the abuse, hidings, yeah, socialising, yeah. Being drunk. But yeah, no. But it was a good place. I mean, it's so good, I can visualize the entire layout. That's so good. So it must have made an impression on me. [00:43:00] Yeah. We'd love to hear your recollections of Chrissie, your time at the Evergreen, and also what was your favourite song on the jukebox? White A Shade Of Pale. Tell us about Evergreen and Chrissie. Um, Chrissie, as you fellas call her, is my relation, and um, [00:43:30] I first met her in Hastings. Her brother comes into a pub, I'm drinking at the age of 15. I've just left school. And he goes, You're like my brother. Come with me, I'll take you home to meet them. They've just come out. When we got to their place, she wasn't there. Her and Ella had come from Wellington. So I met her mum. And then her mum knowing our relationship, Oh, you're coming [00:44:00] to work for me. And that's how I got to know Chris. Initially when the Evergreen opened, It was after Carmen had given up the lease and it opened as the Owls Retreat, that was the name Carmen had on it. And me and four friends were the little hoots in the Owls Retreat. So we gathered together to [00:44:30] support her. She'd rung me to come down from Hastings to open it for her. She still had a contract with Doug and Sue Timms at the Sunset Strip and, um, Cuba Street. Yeah, so she had a year left on her contract. So I came down, gathered Ella Wilson, who is also from Hastings, Geraldine Shepard. Um, it was Pat Lambert at first, [00:45:00] and then we were joined by Kay from Porirua, I can't remember Kay's name. I remember little Kay. Yeah. And so that was our staff, and Serena came in during the day to clean the window, which was the most important thing to everyone in there. Yeah, and the mirrors. And they were spotless. If you knew Serena, she spent two or three hours just rubbing those mirrors down with [00:45:30] newspaper to get them sparkling clean, yeah. And they were well used. All the queens came in and that's the first place they headed to. Checking their makeup, checking their hair. You'll see me doing that now. I'm still in that habit, you know. It's tight. That was the evergreen and how we started out. After a year, um, Chris got released from her contract and then came in. In the [00:46:00] meantime, we were, um, renovating it. We had a, uh, CO for lower. For lower. He was our carpenter. And see, I built. We took the tables up, the mezzanine floors, both upstairs and downstairs, and did all the renovations in the club to change it. And we opened with the [00:46:30] coffee bar only at first, and there was a narrow alleyway with all this walled off space to go, to allow people to go down to the toilets. But that's how we started. Um, and of course, us. Being friends and family, we were volunteers. For that whole year, we remained as volunteers. We didn't get paid, because we were trying to build the club up.[00:47:00] Um, and we were all working girls. So, we built the business up at the same time. We opened the front window up and clients went past and see us sitting there, they started coming in. And that attracted other working girls and the working, to come in. And that's how the business built up over that year, by the time Chris come in, it was already a thriving business. Yeah. Um, [00:47:30] some beautiful memories, some beautiful people. Yeah. And you take the good with the bad, eh? And us Hastings girls. We're fighters. We come from Hastings when the mongrel mob was emerging in Hastings and we had to fight our way to be accepted in Hastings. So we hit Wellington with that attitude as well. Yeah. Me, I call the cabs. I go [00:48:00] Excuse me, I've called your cab. Are you ready to go? It's either the cab or the police, one of the two. I'm not a bouncer. So, yeah, so that's how we started off, uh, and along the way we got joined by Eunice and Violet and Hira did a stunt and I think even you've come in and helped out at times, Gemma. [00:48:30] So, yeah, um, and great to have you here, Jackie. Because Chris and I both worked for you in Willis Street. Yeah. I did a stint at the restaurant, but I wasn't a waitress. So, yeah, no, it's good to have you here, Jackie. Great memories, and you were able to share that era with everyone here. What was really [00:49:00] interesting was Chris had an incredible work ethic. And I think that rubbed off on a lot of other people along the way. She always had a job, and she said to me once, I don't care what I'm doing, as long as someone's paying me, I'll wash their dishes, I don't mind. I'm not out for the limelight, but she always, always had a job, always worked. And when I came down, they were on the wharf. Um, they were all in the kitchen down, just past down here further. There was [00:49:30] Ella, Tāpuni, Chris, Karina, Karina, and Rose. That's right. Yeah. So they all worked down here. Ella, Ella used to pack, This sort of, I thought it was a go kart, it used to carry the food trays around to all the different areas on the wharf, and you didn't get in her way because she never slowed down. That [00:50:00] was. We were lucky that Wellington was so close, eh? This is a beautiful city because everything is so close. It's unlike Auckland where you go miles to get across the city. So Wellington being compact, we had this club circuit going around at one stage when Down Down was going, Powderpuff was going. Those were all those clubs in that era. Yeah, [00:50:30] and People got, you know, tate a tate and all of that, and throughout the night we wandered from club to club, yeah. And so when one opened as the late nighter, or early morninger, everyone ended up there, from all those clubs, yeah. And um, the club owners got on, eh Jackie? There was a need to be able to, as a [00:51:00] community, support one another. So that's what happened, yeah. And the midnight movies on Sundays. Yes. Rats running across the gallows train. The Roxy Theatre. Des, could you tell us about Special Coffee? So people are hearing about coffees and toasted sandwiches. So for those who have never been to the Evergreen, tell us the ingredients of a coffee. [00:51:30] Okay, cats out of the bag people. Special coffees. This is back in the days before they had 24 hour liquor licensing. Six o'clock's, well, you get all the wharfs and all the bars and clubs in town shutting and it was after that. Either get to a speakeasy, or go to another supplier, or have your own supplier at home. And the special coffees were [00:52:00] traditionally poured out of a crystal egg cup. Chris was pretty onto it. She could tell within a drop whether or not you'd free poured or not. I soon learned how to free pour because of the way everything was happening. Um. It was Grant's Whiskey that was used. So I'm not too sure if that's any kind of thing. And A lot of homebrew too, tell the truth. That was later on in the history. Much later. [00:52:30] Um, yeah. So getting all of that kind of thing going, there was another little venture that we opened up and that was the Nutcracker Sweets. Which is now Valhalla, I think it is. Yeah. Yeah. And that was, um, an amazing venue. So very much we had a nice little wee coffee shop going on here. The regulars and everybody was in one thing. And then when the Nutcrackers opened, well, it just took [00:53:00] off. And from there we were able to get hold of low calorie beer. So for the beer drinkers coming in, at least they were still getting a taste. But there was always the special on the side. And then we moved from just whiskey, we had vodka, we had gin, bourbon, whatever was required. And, it was how you poured the coffee. Teaspoon first. Coffee. [00:53:30] Alcohol first. Alcoholic drink. Not licensed. Teaspoon, alcohol, hot water, coffee. Special beverage, didn't need a license to sell it, and that was the loophole. From long, long ago, right the way through until I think about the mid nineties, when they lost, yeah, and that was how the um, empires were built here. And that transferred over from [00:54:00] when Chris and Christine ran the coffee bar at the Sunset, uh, Sorrento. Sorrento. At the Sorrento place. They started serving the special coffees there. I know that the Igo Green, um, had some of the best toasted sandwiches and it became my favourite combination and still is today. And it's a beautiful segue. Because it is now time for karakia for [00:54:30] kai. And then you all can, um, join us to share in a special coffee and a toast. You know what, I've got one of her toasted sandwich machines at home. Aw, that's amazing. Hang on a sec, we're just going to do a karakia before we get into the special coffee. So, all. Uh, Matariki te tipua, Matariki te tawhito. Taumai i wairua, wairua i raatua.[00:55:00] Now, just before we start, I'm passing, my name is passing, and, uh, uh, the quiz couldn't be [00:55:30] that, that you guys, uh, came together, suffered, you know, with Chris. I didn't, uh, I met Chris and Carmen in those days. I'm the passing that on purple onions. It all started I just want to to share, so before, before you can go and have a cup [00:56:00] of cup of drink there with a liquor. Well, I came from Samoa and, uh, I opened, I didn't open anything. I worked at a tram in those days. This is during the 50s, you know. And then, uh, I, I, I danced rock and roll, you know. And I was the champion, Australasian champion, rock and roll dancing, you know, with my partner, Judy. And then I got married, went to Australia. [00:56:30] And, uh, for a while I met with these guys, and I work at Lake Girls. I work at Lake Girls at night time, doing drag at night, and day time I work on the buses. A foggy day in London town. Yeah, you place your life. And everybody, when my son was born, my oldest son is 62 years old now. When he was born. Then I gave it up and came back to New Zealand and went to Samoa. My second son was born in [00:57:00] Samoa. Then we came back to, to Wellington. And then I decided, I'm going to, because I work at the Purple Line, I didn't, I didn't need two, but five, those days I was slim and beautiful. Because I'm 88 years old now. So I'm older than most of these ones over here, I think. Anyway. I opened the club Purple onion and I brought a show. I brought most of the drag queens that I brought. They're all very well known in Australia. Beautiful. Lilac Hayes, Holly Brown, they [00:57:30] all came down and they work at my club. And I met Carmen, 'cause Carmen was working in Coffee Lodge. I think she was a, she was a waitress in this coffee place and working at the hospital too. Anyway, she was young. She was a boy then those days . So anyway, they used to really make me laugh. Used to make me laugh at Carmen when she said, when she said, uh, She said, oh, some of the guys were sitting over there. I said, oh, what's your name, honey? You look so good. I said, my name is Carmen. She said, [00:58:00] Carmen. That's how Carmen goes, you know. And I said, but Carmen who? And they said, Carmen Garrett. You know, I've never forgotten that. She's always been a friend of mine. She used to come, when I opened The Onion, Carmen used to, before she opened, her places were way after mine. But they all come around there. And I met Chris, too, in those days. But Chris, I think Chris works more with the gay community, the rainbows community. [00:58:30] Chris did more for that than Carmen. Carmen was always in the paper. She'd always She's a queen, a news queen. She always get into the paper. But anyway, she came and have coffees, serve coffees and drinks, hot drinks at my place, you know. Because in those days, the drag show was going very well at first to start off. And then most of the gay community didn't like the queens to dress up in girls clothes. They didn't like it because they were all [00:59:00] closet queens, you know. They used to write it outside of my place. Don't forget, I'm not a queen. So I write it outside my place. Queers, queers. And I was, I was encouraging boys to become drag queens. That's what they said. They write down on it. So I changed it to girls. They changed it to strippers and they went, Bop, bop, bop. And of course I got the strippers to start. Still I quit. Well, she started. She, no, she, she, She [00:59:30] was one of the old ones. She was there. But anyway, when I came, and then the club went on good, you know, and then there was a lot of drugs in those days, during the 60s and 70s. There was so much drugs going on. And my wife, Anita, and I was You She was dealing with a lot of drugs in those days, and I said, well, it's time for me. Back after two younger kids, because Mark was already working. My, my back was, I don't know whether you folks know, [01:00:00] uh, Ray Johns used to run all of the class. Yeah, Dr. Johns. Yeah, Dr. Johns. And Mark was, Moon Doc Mark. Yeah, yeah. That's my son. And then Mark was already working. So I took the two kids and went to America. I've always wanted to be in And I, I lived over there for 32 years. Then I came back when my sister died and, uh, and, uh, the, the niece was here, you know, you know, really layman. [01:00:30] Yeah, but she's my niece. She's my sister's daughter, and my other sister, my other, uh, my auntie's daughter, she's the Prime Minister of Sam , you know, and my other niece. All the girls got good jobs except me. You know, one, the world one. My father always. The Lord only takes good people first. And the rotten ones like you, you'll live forever. And sure enough, they all died before me. [01:01:00] My parents died, my brothers and sisters. I have one sister in Auckland. You've got all my life stories all in one time. But I had a good life, you know, I had a fabulous life. Really, I had, you know. And the gay communities over here were so, so good. You know, these were the old ones, I remember. I don't remember any of the young ones that have come out now. Of course, they weren't even around in those days, when I was around. As, as you can see, you know. I'm, I'm 88. I'm 88 [01:01:30] years old, you know, and I'm still kicking, you know. So anyway, I said, uh, then I opened a club, and I opened another one in, uh, in a hut because all the girls were so popular. I made so much money on those girls, on girls. You know, so I changed the club. The Permanente was a strip club. And then I opened another one, Playgirls. Where the tie to tie was. Well, yeah, that's it. In Lower Hutt, I had a fight with the mayor over there. He said, I shouldn't be bringing a strip show over there. I said, excuse [01:02:00] me? You're not allowed to do that? And then they all come. All the police and everybody. And in those days, too, we could sell, oh gosh, I used to make 500 dollars on one bottle of whiskey. All the Japanese sailors, they loved my whiskey. And they loved my girls, cause I had married girls, from, from, uh, what do you say? From , Janice Moroney did, they're all from Janice Moroney. Yeah. T they're from Hass. [01:02:30] All from Hastings. And a lot of those girls, they had nowhere else to go. So I usually, usually have Christmas. We used like a family, all my strippers, we always have a barbecue together and we go get mussel and powers and they all let go get together on Christmas days and things like that. They come to my house, you know, and stuff like. They were, they were good friends of all those years, you know. And I came back, I'm still remembered by some of the few people that are still around. Like Jackie and them. [01:03:00] And Donald just died. And of course Jenny just died too. But everyone, every one of them have all gone. Oh, I remember her, that one over there. That girl from Old Tuckey County. That woman from Old Tuckey. She's still a thing. All my, all the people, I used to see Carmen. I used to go, I used to, when I come from America for a vacation, I used to go. Stop [01:03:30] by in Sydney to see my friends and family there, because my wife is from over there. And I used to see Carmen. We always had a cup of tea together and talked. She had her own little flat. But Carmen wasn't all that bad. She was, she was a good person. I believe you have come into this space today to provide us with our next club uncle. Because, you know, what is clear about our kōrero today is we need a space. It's missing in our community, and you are the man who's going to [01:04:00] provide that for us. Everybody say, aye. Aye. Thank you, Uncle Pasi, and please have some toasted sandwiches and special coffee. We're going to have an intermittent, take a break. A lot of, a lot of people that does this kind of thing. My, my niece, Winnie. Was always with the gay community. She, she votes for all you guys. Yes, she did. And and me. I'm just old. Excuse. Excuse me. God bless. And I glad that I came. Anyway, Joe asked me to come,[01:04:30] he taught me to holler. Guy. Guy? Yes, it's a guy. How about you? How could I look over there twice a minute? You do that face. And when you get old you forget. I know Luana.[01:05:00] Um, my name is Fiona Lim Shang. We are on the second floor of the Wellington Museum. Outside the evergreen coffee house sign. And what a sign, it's all kind of illuminated, and then underneath it we've got some panels here. Yes, these panels take us back to yesteryears. They're a collage of old pictures, as well as business cards of establishments. that were around in the 80s and 90s. When you look through the [01:05:30] panels, um, do you see familiar faces? Absolutely. In the panels are, um, it's a collage of my youth actually, and a lot of icons of those people who used to be well known on the Wellington streets within our community. So how does it make you feel when you see those faces again? I feel really humbled to have spent a youth time with them and that I was exposed to great leaders at such a young age in a community that was [01:06:00] accepting, inclusive, resilient and Even though they didn't realise it, activists in their own right, created a space that was inclusive of all sexual preferences and a community that looked after each other just by default. I love that. I think we were lucky to live in a time where our communities were really important, because the struggle was real. Um, our preferences were illegal, therefore we had to really look after each other. I [01:06:30] think, when I'm being reflective, though the times were hard, the community was strong. We don't quite have the same feel now, because by rights, how we live, we have capacity, right? Everybody sees and recognises us. In the time when I was That was not so much the case. However, this community ensured that we had space. And we had safe, we had safe spaces in which to connect and meet other people. [01:07:00] One of the really lovely things for me today is looking at the audience and seeing there's such an age range in the audience from the young to the older people. Um, isn't that just wonderful? It really is when this kind of kaupapa can bring through so much diversity and people who are just curious about Wellington's history. So, um, the range of audience today has been quite nostalgic. It's taken us out into the past, but it also makes us look into the future to see what our young people today [01:07:30] have that's available for them to get this kind of connection and support. What's been your favourite moment from today so far? It's got to be all the stories of all of our people on our panel sharing of a time in the 60s. What that looked like for them, and even though it was hard, how much they enjoyed it. It has been a walk into the past, but joyful and has celebrated us and our community and where we are today. [01:08:00] My name's Jackie Grant and we're at Wellington Museum, I think, aren't we? I'm Pasi, Pasi Darius, I'm from Wellington, but I'm Samoan anyway. So, so we're here today remembering Chrissy and the Evergreen and all of those wonderful years. What is it like to be surrounded by so many people from the past? Uh, it's quite amazing because it's, you know, we, we sort of go off on our own life journeys. And, and we We [01:08:30] don't have as much contact as we probably should. Um, although we see people on Facebook and that, but it's not like being in the same room. It's not been so many people that we know. Jackie and I know. Because they've all gone. Most First, because I'm, I'm 88 years old, you know, that's the problem, but I don't know any of these, and yet I'm the one that started all that bullshit in New Zealand. I was the first club that opened in New Zealand, was the Purple Onion. And, uh, [01:09:00] apparently, the Over Green was right next door to the Onion, isn't it? The what? The Evergreen. The Evergreen. That's why two doors are from the onion. I've closed already. I took the kids and went to America. I took my two younger ones. And they worked with Michael Jackson, Janet Jackson, Lionel, Liza Minnelli. All my kids are working. Big time in America. And then I decided to come back home when Amy died. And it's nice to be here. Nice to meet people that I love. That I grew up loving them, [01:09:30] you know. But I was never ever one of them that goes to the pubs and stuff like they do. I never do that anyway. What is your favourite memory of Chrissy and also Carmen? My favourite memory of Carmen? She's always in the newspaper, she's always wetting her lips. Like this. All the time, you know. And, and, uh, she was, she was always very She's, she's like, she doesn't give a damn about business. I mean, I think when she left the, the, the, the, the [01:10:00] big, the nightclub that she had done, the strip club, you know, the, what you call that place? The barket. The barket, when she left the barket, she left with nothing. She had nothing to go. And all the other queens that were working for her, they all end up taking all the money, you know. That's the bad thing, that's, I felt sorry for her for that, actually. But Chris. Chrissy is the one that takes all, all the things that are to do with gays. Chrissy is the one. That, that opens all the doors and everything [01:10:30] else. Chris was never interested in the limelight and the pizazz and being the showgirl. She was sort of always just in the back being solid. Um, and there was a lot of Solid's not probably the word, but, but There was a lot of substance to Chris. where, where some other people, well, there was a lot of show, but not the substance, not the same substance. And I'm not trying to put anyone down. Um, it's just the way it [01:11:00] was. I think Chrissy was the one that, that encouraged and go with all the gay crowd over here. She wasn't care about whatever it is. She knows she was a queen and she, but she backed it. It's different. comedy, you know. But Christmas for the people. That's, that's my idea of it. But comedy I love too, please. She's a showgirl. Well, I like Jackie's because I owned it. [01:11:30] But we used to go to, we used to do the rounds, as someone said before, we used to go to the Sunset Strip, we used to go to the Powder Puff, which we called, of course, the Powder Puff. Um, we went, and that's way after the Purple Onion in those days. Um, I had a, Chris and I actually opened a restaurant opposite Parliament Buildings, which was the, The first, the first topless restaurant in New Zealand was called The Doodle Inn.[01:12:00] Um, I think the SIS, thanks darling, I think the SIS burnt us down at the end. Um, ha ha ha. But, yeah, there was, and we used to, everyone used to go to the midnight movies on a Sunday night and then end up at the hot bread shop at four o'clock in the morning. We were a community and we all sort of stuck together. And that was, that was the important part. We all had each other's backs. I don't know whether it's the same these days or not. And so where was that first topless [01:12:30] bar? That was in 1967, 68? And so it was opposite Parliament. Do you know which, um, whereabouts, what street? It was in Molesworth Street, and there was a fish and chip shop one side, and there was a grocer just up the road. It was right opposite the main gates of Parliament. And how, how, how did people respond to that, if that was the first to New Zealand? Um, It was interesting. We, we got away [01:13:00] with it because when we took it over, there was a, a, um, permanent booking for the, the, the Roundtable Association, I think they were called. It wasn't the Business Roundtable, but it was a group of members. Ministers from different denominations had a, had a permanent booking there, so we didn't tell them, but we introduced the topless restaurants to them that night, and the police were going to bust us and everything, but if they had, they would have had to have busted the Bishop of Wellington and half the different [01:13:30] clergy, so, so they let it go, but it only lasted about six months and it mysteriously burnt down one night. And what was it called? The Doodle Inn. Jacky to namesake that, uh, do good. I named the purple onion when I came back from, from over there. I work at the Onion Institute. Very famous one. All the shows there were fabulous. Choreographed. Proper drag queen show. Good costumes. Same as I started [01:14:00] with The Onion 2. I, I start, the girls were all wearing nice costumes. Then they go into larrykins and just get off with their dress they wear. And take it off. Those were those days, you know. Now it's now. But anyway, I came back to retire here. New Zealand is the best place to retire. Absolutely. Today is a very special occasion and they are serving toasty sandwiches and also special coffee.[01:14:30] What's in the toasty sandwiches? Mine's ham and egg, I think. Ham, egg and onion. It's got onion and, uh, something sweet. Pineapple. And how would you rate these toasty sandwiches compared to, say, um, Carmen's? These are better. Tasty. More tasty. They've got it wrong. They've got it totally wrong. What should be in there? There should be three slices of bread to make the sandwich for a start. Always. Wellington [01:15:00] Toasted Sandwiches had three slices of bread, butter on the outside, and then the filling between the two lots of bread. That sounds like a meal. They were like a meal. We lived on them at times. Hey Daz, I was just saying, he got it wrong. There's only two slices of bread, there's not three. I'm not passing any critique on this. Daz must have made hundreds of thousands of [01:15:30] toasted sandwiches at that coffee bar. He'd be the expert toasted sandwich maker in this country. Dears, how are the toasty sandwiches tasting? They're tasting good. Yeah. And yes, it would have been nice if there'd been that extra in there, but when you have a legacy that goes, and over time people forget, yeah, that's why it's good to be able to come back and go, OK, we definitely need to have some kind of resurgence with [01:16:00] what's going on, to keep things going. Um, thank you, everybody, for being with us in this space today. Thank you for remembering those who are not present with us, whether they have passed through or just cannot make it today. But just to close us off, let us say krisi wi toko three times in [01:16:30] memory of someone who changed the landscape. of Wellington for our community, for those who sit here who have changed the landscape for our community. May we always be resilient, may we always embrace each other in our journeys. So on the count of three, Chrissie, will you take over? Can we just add her life partner Andrew into that as well? I'd love to add Andrew, her life partner, into that. What is Andrew's surname? Well, why [01:17:00] don't we just go Chrissy and Anaru three times in memory of their brilliance for our community. Um, together now, whānau. Chrissy and Anaru. Chrissy and Anaru. Chrissy and Anaru. Kia ora koutou. I'll hand it over to our brother, Kevin, to close us out with karakia. Thank you. Tēnā tātou. Tēnā tōu. Tēnā tōu. Tēnā tōu. Reka ngā kōrero. [01:17:30] Ko kōrero here. Really awesome kōrero. Really awesome the legacy that still continues today, believe it or not, in terms of our whānau store. There are still places where we get together and where our whānau are the backbone of our community here in, here in Pōneke. So, tuku ngā mihi ki a koutou katoa. Ki ngā kaiwhakahaere te tuatahi, [01:18:00] uh, ki ngā kai kōrero, um, ki te audience, uh, tēnā tātou katoa. I'm going to, um, actually ask a part of our whānau who don't know this to come up and sing a waiata. Um, a happy waiata, and then I'll do a karakia straight after that. So whānau from Te Whanawhana, and if you've got a poi and if you've got spare ones, come up. And, um, and I know you've got it Rene, because you always have poi. [01:18:30] Come up here. Uh, and we're going to do a waiata, which was composed to invite people to come to To Paul, Nicki to come to . So order.[01:19:00] I don't know if you can see it, but we're going to sing a little bit of a [01:19:30] song called Ki te Whanganui a ta ra Whai a tu ra Whai a tu ra te waiwai o te peke E heke mai nei te mokai o Muturangi Ki aotearoa Ki aotearoa e[01:20:00] Ka rangatia rā Ka rangatia ki te taifakaunga rā Ka rangatia ki te taifaka rāua Haere mai Haere mai hi Haere mai Haere mai Tiwhana Tiwhana whana ae Ka hukura i te rangi Ke runa [01:21:30] Thank you. Okay.

IRN: 3493
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_liberation_vernon_tile_vamaua.html
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093063
TITLE: Queer Liberation - Vernon Tile Vamaua
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VOICES: Vernon Tile Vamaua
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1970s; 1972: a year in focus (book); Brent Coutts; International Socialist Organisation Aotearoa; International Socialist Organisation Te Whanganui-a-Tara branch; International Socialist Organization (ISO); John Wooles; Kirk building; Manawatu Lesbian and Gay Rights Association (MALGRA); Marxism; Socialist Action League; Vernon Tile Vamaua; direct action; zaps
DATE: 28 June 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: Kirk building, Victoria University of Wellington, Kelburn, Wellington
CONTEXT: To mark the 50th anniversary of the formation of the first Gay Liberation Front groups in New Zealand in 1972, the International Socialist Organisation Te Whanganui-a-Tara branch invited activist Vernon Tile Vamaua to talk about the early years of queer liberation. Due to time constraints, Vernon didn't present his full talk - but it can be downloaded in full as a pdf document.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: February 2024
TEXT: Kia ora tātou, ko Shawmi tōku ingoa. Um, it is my great honor and privilege to be able to introduce Vernon Tile Vamaua, um, to our branch meeting tonight. Um, a veteran of the gay liberation movement and also a member of the Of the Socialist Action League, one of the, uh, most formidable Trotskyist organizations, uh, these islands had seen in the, uh, 70s and 80s, um, [00:00:30] so he brings with us a wealth of, uh, with him a wealth of knowledge, a wealth of experience of all the various, uh, struggles of those times, um, you know, just thinking about the 70s, it makes me think of the huge anti Vietnam War, uh, Uh, movements, uh, the movement against, uh, the wom for women's rights, um, for abortion rights, all of these things that, uh, Socialist Action League, um, were involved in. But for tonight in particular, [00:01:00] uh, we, uh, uh, invited, uh, Vernon tonight, uh, to talk about his experience in, uh, the Gay Liberation Front. Um, which he joined, uh, right here. And I think it's quite poignant that, um, we are talking on the campus where, uh, Vernon was active in the 70s, uh, building Socialist Action League, building, uh, the fight for, uh, gay liberation, um, right here on this campus. So, um, it is my great pleasure, um, to invite you to the [00:01:30] podium to speak. Thank you, Vernon. Uh, kia ora tatou. Uh, thanks very much for uh, Invited me to speak to you tonight. So, cordially and comradely, I'd like to thank you, the International Socialist Organization, for inviting me to speak to you this evening. It was 50 years ago, in 1972, that A number of extremely courageous and heroic forward thinking, [00:02:00] and definitely ahead of their time, members of the New Zealand Aotearoa queer community joined together to actively and very publicly fight the fight for political and social changes for the most despised community in New Zealand. This collection of queer individuals began the fight for the absolute removal of all discrimination against the queer community, the fight for absolute equality for the queer community, [00:02:30] but also within the context of queer community history, society, and culture for the sexual and personal freedoms of the queer community. At the same time, these brave individuals from the queer community were fully aware that this public and open political and social activism for the most despised community in this country could, and in some cases [00:03:00] would, come at great personal and social risk to their lives. So this year of 2022 is the 50th anniversary of the founding of Gay Liberation Front in New Zealand. back in 1972, firstly in Auckland on the 21st of March 1972, and then followed by Christchurch in May 1972, and later on in Wellington on the 16th of July, not too far away from the state tonight, in 1972.[00:03:30] So firstly there are some acknowledgments that I would like to make at the very start of my talk. Uh, this venue, as Shomi said, Victoria University, 50 years ago, and for me personally, 48 years ago, was a venue for the queer community in Wellington. First of all, for the establishment of Gay Liberation Front, who used these premises quite extensively, and for me personally, 48 years ago, was when I first met my first gay men, [00:04:00] and then I got trapped into Gay Liberation Front and other social activities. Uh, I'm going to tend to use the word gay community because that was the term that was used by us at the time. And from my reading of American history, it was a term that was used right from the start of the 20th century for our community. I will use New Zealand Aotearoa alternatively as I go through my talk [00:04:30] with you tonight. Uh, the first real acknowledgement is to the International Socialist Organisation. It's just that as humanity moves towards this unfolding crisis of capitalism across the world, it is significant that New Zealand has Marxist organisations like the International Socialist Organisation. And you as an organisation do have the potential to be working class vanguards to chart a possibly [00:05:00] revolutionary course where working people put an end to the economic and social ills that are bred by capitalism. It may not necessarily be in New Zealand, but you will do your bit in New Zealand for what could happen elsewhere in the world. Your organisation, Members of Citizens of the World, follow Marxist dialectic. The Marxist materialist dialectics, that is through understanding history, you recognize that it is the material conditions of life that shape your ideas. And [00:05:30] that I think is true for everybody, every individual, if you actually stop and do that work of knowing your history to think about where you play your role in it and where you go from there. As an organization, I'm also sure that you follow the Leninist principle of democratic social democratic centralism That you've got free and open debate within the party Until a vote is taken and then the decision of the majority is accepted and that decision becomes the current party line and is binding on [00:06:00] all members Certainly with the deformed and corrupt Marxist current of Stalinism and the bureaucratic concept of socialism in one country, hopefully being consigned to the dustbin of history, these are indeed exciting times and opportunities for working people globally and internationally for Marxists like us. I would also like to acknowledge the brilliant work that's been done by Brent Coots on Gay community history in New Zealand. [00:06:30] He is the only person who has taken on the challenge of researching and fully covering 1972 and the establishment of Gay Liberation Front in New Zealand. Brent has done an excellent and superb job with the book that he wrote, 1972, A Year in Focus, which he launched in April 2022 in Auckland. His book has been my reference for what happened in relation to Gay Liberation Front in 1972. Brent [00:07:00] has meticulous Detail for the facts and the available written records for that time. And so his book about 1972 displays considerable care and sensitivity to relaying the information to the reader without identity politics or a, or a personal agenda in his own account. of the crucial year of 1972 in the queer community history of [00:07:30] New Zealand. So I'd just like to acknowledge the work that he's done in terms of at least bringing 1972 in a format that can be accessed by anybody, including the gay community. Even though I'm about to definitely generalise It does come from a historical analysis. There seems to be two approaches that have been taken globally to remove political, social and economic discrimination [00:08:00] against the queer community. One approach is the formation of sympathetic groups, which include well intentioned individuals, to then change laws through conventional MP lobbying. Sometimes the law change may not even gain equality, but the perspective is any change is better than no change at all. That's the reformist approach. In 1972 in New Zealand, that was the stance of the New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform [00:08:30] Society. And that society did have its initial beginnings as the law reform subgroup of the Dorian Society, which was a Wellington social club set up by gay men in 1962. They held a public meeting in Wellington in April of 1967, which got about 150 people to it. It was initially named The Wolfenden Association, but fairly quickly, it became the New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society. So that [00:09:00] organisation was around in 1972, and I take the view that their approach was very much, very much a reformist approach. The other approach is to raise the consciousness of your community, mobilize your community, be very public about your demands, visibly challenge society as it exists, and then push not only for law change, but for a change in society. The revolutionary approach. So in 1972 in New [00:09:30] Zealand, that was the approach of the gay liberation groups that were set up in Auckland, Christchurch and Wellington. It's worthwhile to consider the history of gay community activism in the States, because Gay Liberation Front and similar groupings in the US after June 1969 were the inspiration for the Gay Liberation Front in New Zealand itself. There [00:10:00] had been a slow growing move in the United States by various queer community groups and queer individuals to not only support the queer community, but to remove the discrimination the queer community faced. Just looking at those three key United States gay organizations before Gay Liberation Front in the U. S. appeared. When you look at the purposes of all those three organizations. You [00:10:30] realize that there are three clear historical aspects to those organizations. The first one that's very clear from the 1924 organization, and also the Mattachine Society in 1951, is that queer community activists knew their community's culture, identity, and even more remarkably, For those early times, certainly 1924, they knew their [00:11:00] history on a global basis and what needed to be done for the queer community in the United States. where these groups were set up. So they knew about what was happening in Germany. They also knew about Magnus Hirschfeld Scientific Humanitarian Committee. All of that flowed through to form that first organization, the Society for Human Rights. That was the first historical aspect that I picked up reading through about these three organizations. The second aspect that I picked up [00:11:30] was that well before Stonewall, A broad cross section of the queer community across racial divides, and I stress that across racial divides in the US, took advantage of their space from the 1920s through to the late 1940s on the margins of American society to throw themselves into leftist and working people's campaigns. That came, that's come through very clearly in all the reading that I've done over that period of American history from 1920s through to the late [00:12:00] 1940s. And obviously, the third historical aspect that had a major bearing on the last group that you see up there, the Mattachine Society of Washington, lessons were learnt from the queer community involvement in the American Civil Rights Movement. A lot of gay Jewish men and women travelled to the southern states of the United States to take part in the sit ins, and learnt from the Civil Rights [00:12:30] Movement what they were doing. to then use later in the Madison Society of Washington, especially people like Jack Nichols and Craig Rodwell. So the conventional wisdom is that the U. S. Gay Liberation Front learned from the American Civil Rights Movement and the Feminist Movement, as well as being inspired by the Vietnam War protests. Hence the name, Gay Liberation Front, which was an allusion to the [00:13:00] Vietnamese. National Liberation Front, or more commonly known as the Viet Cong. But it could also have harked back to 1954, where the Algerian independence movement was also called the Algerian National Liberation Front. So that's the conventional wisdom in terms of what motivated the US Gay Liberation Front movement. But the Gay Liberation Front movement from 1969 was [00:13:30] Also, not only based on the consequences of the Stonewall Inn riots, but also on a foundation of previous queer community organisations fighting for changes in the law and society that discriminated against the queer community. However, what made the Gay Liberation Front quite different to the three organisations that you see on the See on the whiteboard, was that Gay Liberation Front had a broad political platform. [00:14:00] Denouncing racism, declaring support for various third world struggles, and also groups like the Black Panther Party. They also took on a quite clear anti capitalist stance and attacked the nuclear family and also traditional gender roles. So when you look at what was happening in New Zealand, Those were the things that were happening in New Zealand in 1972. [00:14:30] So there was quite a range of things going on, and the formation of Gay Liberation Front in New Zealand in 1972 did not seem out of kilter with what was going on then. And that's even from my memory as a 17 year old in New Zealand that all these things are happening and Gay Liberation Front was just one of many protests and challenges to the society that we had at that stage [00:15:00] or to government actions that were in place. So these queer Gay Liberation Front activists in New Zealand in 1972 did not arise from nowhere. Many were obviously inspired by international events, such as the U. S. Civil Rights Movement, the anti colonial struggles in Africa, Asia and the Caribbean, the anti apartheid campaigns of the African National [00:15:30] Congress, the rise of feminism and equal rights for women, plus obviously Stonewall. So, Those were the inspirations, but also, quite a few of the people that did get involved in Gay Liberation Front in 1972 were also involved in New Zealand political struggles and activities. And that helped forge their political awareness and intellectual understanding of what needed to be [00:16:00] done and why they were brave enough, possibly, to be part of Gay Liberation Front and to do the things that they were willing to do in 1972. So this is just a brief rundown of the initial activities by the Gay Liberation Front in New Zealand, in Auckland. So that's what you're seeing there, the timeline of activities right from Ngahuia [00:16:30] Te Awatukotukus. Speech at Auckland University about homosexuality and calling for the setting up of a Gay Liberation Front. So you can see from that 15th of March action that she took, that quite a bit got organised and put in place in the intervening three or four weeks. So, The people who were involved were a small group, they certainly were very active and it probably explains why later in [00:17:00] 1972 a lot of these people were tired, were tired out fairly quickly. So it was only a small group of six people that met in Parnell on the 1972, and that was a Saturday, so they gave up their Saturday to write the first New Zealand version of the Gay Liberation Front Manifesto. The basis for it was the London Gay Liberation Manifesto, which you see on the right hand side of the slide. There was a meeting the very next day on the [00:17:30] Sunday. There was an all up meeting of everybody that wanted to come along. That meeting discussed and ratified the manifesto. Uh, what I've done here is to show you that in the blue, in the blue part. is the section of the Aims of the Auckland Gay Liberation Front Manifesto. And when I went back and looked at the London Gay Liberation Front [00:18:00] Manifesto from 1971 you can see that the aims came from two separate sections towards the end of the Manifesto of the London one. So they took the first sentence of the Aims of the London Manifesto and added in The first sentence of the campaign part of the London Manifesto for Gay Liberation Front. Just to give you an idea that they weren't starting from scratch. They did quite clearly use and had access to the London Gay Liberation Front Manifesto, and what they did was they [00:18:30] tweaked it. to suit Auckland. But essentially when you look at the London Manifesto in its entirety and you look at the Auckland Gay Liberation Front Manifesto in its entirety, you can see that there is a similar similarity, very definitely. So I just gave you that one part to show you that, uh, the aims of the Auckland Manifesto was cobbling together different sections from the London Manifesto. [00:19:00] However, most of the other sections were straight lifts. So I'm just showing you that they did do some work on it. So the manifesto that came out from the Auckland Gay Liberation Front covered all of those issues. And certainly when I went through and checked the two manifestos, most of the first eight sections were pretty well holus bolus transferred across as our manifesto as well. A bit of tweaking here and there, [00:19:30] but it wasn't until the last couple of bullet points that you see up there that they started coming together. Uh, doing a bit more cutting and pasting, ditching things, pulling out these things. So I just thought it was useful for you to see that the Auckland Gay Liberation Front Manifesto did not come from the inspired thoughts of just six people. They had the help of the London Gay Liberation Front Manifesto. The immediate demands that were put up by the [00:20:00] Auckland Gay Liberation Front in their manifesto were those four demands. They were it. So you can see that there is the support for gay people but also that whole thrust of pushing for removal of legal, legal discrimination and also pushing for some sort of societal change. That societal change emphasis is very evident when you look through the full [00:20:30] manifesto outside of these immediate four demands. But I just thought it was useful that you at least see these were the initial four demands that were put up by the very first Gay Liberation Front group in New Zealand and Auckland. Fairly soon as you can see after they got established. The other interesting thing that I found about the Auckland Gay Liberation Front in that very first two months was the sort of actions that they did. Obviously some of those [00:21:00] individuals had contact with the US. But I think it was a combination of both, not only bringing things back into New Zealand as individuals, but I think certain individuals had links with outside organisations in the States. To think about and know about these sorts of actions that I'm just going to go through with you. So the very first action that Gay Liberation Front did was a direct [00:21:30] action and it was a gay day happening that was held on the 11th of April 1972 at the Queen Victoria statue in Albert Park in Auckland. So this activity was for consciousness raising and visibility in order to promote the Auckland Gay Liberation Front's political goals. Placards had been organised for the happening. Gay is good. Gay is proud. Will Victorian morality ever die? Which I thought was [00:22:00] appropriate being beside the Queen Victoria statue. Camps and gays come out to play. And Katerina Deneuve wore a sandwich board stating, I am your best fantasy, I am your worst fears. Now, this sandwich board slogan was based on Donna Goldschild's placard that she had at the 1970 New York Gay Liberation Parade on Christopher Street in New York, back in the States. So obviously somebody had [00:22:30] known about that placard and That was one of the placards designed as a sandwich board back in the very first direct action activism by the Auckland Gay Liberation Front. Uh, the other thing that they did at that gay happening was they wrote a letter about the oppression of gay people. And that was a letter that was sent to the Mayor of Auckland at the time, Doug Meyer Robinson. He, of course, did not [00:23:00] reply back to the letter. The second activity that I want to just cover, Brent quite rightly describes it as the first ZAP action in New Zealand. So this was done six days after the very first gay day happening in Albert Park. So you can see that they're starting to be very busy. But that wasn't just all they did. So this [00:23:30] zap action was protesting marriage as being oppressive and also taking a stand that there should be legal recognition of same sex marriage. So what happened was that Paul Kells, whose photo is the one that's up there, and John Denmouth, uh, John Demuth, they applied for a marriage certificate. And also two women who have not been named, they also applied for a marriage license. at the Registry of Births, Deaths and Marriages Office in Auckland. [00:24:00] So they filled out the form, they handed over their money, and the official that was dealing with them took a little while to sort out what to do. So it wasn't immediate that the official said, No, this is not possible. There was quite a lot of humming and hurrying going on. In my recollection it was up to at least an hour before a decision came back that we will not take your money and we will not register your proposal for a marriage licence. [00:24:30] Now the reason why I mention this SAP action, it was the sort of thing that was done in the civil rights movement in the 50s and 60s. It's a, it's a, it's a technique of direct action actually designed to embarrass an official or some figure or some organisation. And this quite clearly is to embarrass the [00:25:00] person that is responsible for sorting out marriage licences. ZAP actions have been done quite extensively by the gay community in the States and the organization that has got quite a reputation for doing ZAPs is the AIDS Coalition to Unleash Power, the ACT UP group in New York especially. They extensively use this type of action relating to the AIDS epidemic. So I just thought it was quite [00:25:30] interesting that, uh, Um, we did it, but I know that you can see examples of ZAP actions by the queer community in the States before the one that was done in Auckland. But I also know that ZAP actions were a predominant form of direct action by the ACT UP group in the States, especially in New York, to get movement on sorting out treatment, sorting it out. Facing up to [00:26:00] and dealing with the AIDS epidemic. Now, I didn't realise that, uh, this sort of thing had been, I didn't realise that ZAPs had been done in New Zealand, so it was a revelation reading Brent's book to see this. Uh, the other thing you should note, uh, this was also done back in 1969 in the States and there is quite a detailed record. of the two men who did apply for a same sex marriage certificate. [00:26:30] So that's something that is in the public record, but it is actually available in a number of books that, uh, authors from the gay community have written in the States. Uh, when I saw this in Brent's book, I immediately recognized having seen this example in the States, done about three years beforehand. I think the other thing to note about the Auckland Gay Liberation Front, and you can see it's [00:27:00] within that same short time period, Auckland Gay Liberation Front did their first protest march in Pickett. It was the first one ever done by the gay community in Aotearoa. So this involved 15 people from memory, and it was a march up to the US consulate on Queen Street in Auckland and a picket outside the US consulate because of the refusal of a visa to Nahuia. Yes, it was 15 people that took part in that [00:27:30] march and also the picket. So that was the very first picket by the queer community in New Zealand. And still being active, and obviously if you've got Queen's Birthday weekend, you need to do something as a queer community in relation to the day for your birthday, Queen's Birthday. So, yes, Auckland Gay Liberation did do something, so they had an action on the Monday. They had a Queen's Birthday party, or an open gay day, and they had a [00:28:00] celebration of gay liberation with balloons, queen cakes and party hats. And this photo, uh, was of that action. So I just thought it was quite useful to look at the very first four actions by Auckland Gay Liberation Front within a very short time period and you can see that the actions were quite different and quite significant in that the first time that these things were being done [00:28:30] and you can see that these were really committed people to doing things not just Saying we're forming a group and then waiting for the right opportunity to do something. It was what opportunities we've got right here and now and just getting on with it. Uh, in terms of Wellington. Wellington was the third gay liberation group to be formed. And what you see on the slide there [00:29:00] is the initial activities of that group. So, it was one person, Kevin McCone, who advertised in the Salient, the Victoria University student newspaper, that he was going to have a meeting at his place on the 16th of July, for anyone interested in setting up a Gay Liberation Front in Wellington. He was a first year student, so that indicates [00:29:30] The state of mind that he had, that he was prepared as an 18 year old, I'm assuming he's an 18 year old, as a first year student at Victoria University, to say, I want to do something, I'm wanting to get something underway. So that was the start, the beginning of Gay Liberation Wellington. A couple of weeks later, there was a bigger meeting held in the Student Union building, as you can see. David Russell and Nigel Bournbaugh, who were very active in Auckland Gay [00:30:00] Liberation Front, came down from Auckland to give the Wellington Group ideas, and to talk through what they were doing in Auckland, to give an idea of what they could do in Wellington. It was decided that, at that meeting, that they would not have a structured leadership. They decided that they would have an informal troika to share the leadership of Gay Liberation, and just do that organising work. I was quite [00:30:30] interested to see that a meeting was held at St Peter's Hall. St Peter's Hall is attached to the church, and St Peter's Church has got a good reputation in Wellington for being willing to lease their hall to slightly Left of center groups on a regular basis. So I was quite surprised to see back in 1972 They were quite happy for Gay Liberation Wellington to actually have a meeting at their place at their hall There had been a [00:31:00] really successful dance of a couple of hundred people that made quite a bit of money It was the first time that made money from a social. There was issues over Where was the money going and just that whole financial accountability aspect. So at that meeting they decided that they would have a formal structure and that was what was sorted out and they were the first two office holders for those two leading positions. I've just mentioned, [00:31:30] outside of 1972, that Gay Liberation Wellington did split into two groups. They split amicably. Absolutely amicably. And I've got my copies of the newsletters from that time, and it's all spilled out as you read through. that they've decided to split, and the reason why they decided to split was because if you had an organisation at Victoria University, then you had access to using facilities at [00:32:00] Victoria University. So what happened was Victoria University Gay Liberation got formed, joined up as an official group at Victoria University. That gave them And also Gay Liberation Wellington Access to use Victoria University facilities which were used extensively for all their dances. Absolutely everything. All the meetings were held here. In Victoria University, all the dances were held in the Student Union Hall. The only other [00:32:30] place where they had meetings was up at 15 Wesley Road in Kilburn. And I've thought about that. Where the hell would they have met? And we're talking about at least 15 people used to turn up to those meetings. So the only thing I can think of is that the front room of the 15 Wesley Road flat would have been used as the venue for the meetings that were held up there. And we're talking about meetings that were held regularly. One meeting held here for Gay Liberation Front Wellington [00:33:00] and also Gay Liberation VUW. The next meeting would be at 15 Wesley Road. Then the meeting would be back here and back at Wesley Road. So that's a bit of background about the set up of Gay Liberation Front in Wellington. Obviously, Piggybacking quite successfully on Auckland Gay Liberation Front. In terms of Christchurch, Christchurch Gay Liberation Front was the second organisation formed. That happened in May of 1972. We don't seem to [00:33:30] have a date in May for that happening, but it came about from Ngahuia visiting Christchurch, meeting with a number of interested individuals, and that's how it got underway. Meetings were held in homes. initially, and key members were listed there. And the only two people of those six that I think are still alive, John Walls. John Walls, I met with him in January. He's definitely still alive. So for somebody who's 74, [00:34:00] he is fit and able and mobile. Mike Quaycon, I gather is living in Europe, elsewhere. Robin Duff. Obviously, those of us who are teachers know Robin as PPTA President. Uh, Lindsay Taylor died of AIDS. He was one of my flatmates up at Wesley Road as well. And I'm not sure about Chris Hignant and Paul Maling. But it's just interesting when you look through those six key members that there is only a third of them that are still alive. For definite. [00:34:30] So that's a bit of a background about, uh, what 1972, given that this is the 50th anniversary. anniversary of the setting up of Gay Liberation Front New Zealand. Um, just sort of Give you a bit of a rundown of the first National Gay Liberation Conference that was held. It was held in Auckland, and that was, as you can see, the 26th of August 1972. It was held at Auckland University. Favourite meeting [00:35:00] place for Gay Liberation Front, not only in Auckland, Wellington, but having talked to John Walls, he told me about the places that they used, and they were Teachers College, uh, Teachers Training College. And also Canterbury University were the venues that they used for Christchurch Gay Liberation Front. So, university facilities are quite favoured. facility for use by Gay Liberation Front in the very early days and for many years afterwards. Uh, you can [00:35:30] see it was a nice conference to go to, just two hours in the morning, two hours in the afternoon, with all the sort of things that they covered. But the other thing that I found interesting was that was where the pink triangle symbol was adopted by the Gay Liberation Front groups in all three localities, that was agreed. Uh, it was 30 people. Uh, eight people from Wellington Christchurch managed to get up to Auckland for it. And there was [00:36:00] official delegations from the Christchurch group and also the Wellington Group, and they are named there, Don Raphael and Barry Neils from the Gay Liberation Wellington and Robin Duff from Christchurch Gay Liberation Front. So, um, according to Brent Cos these are the official, these are the key individuals in Gay Liberation Front in Auckland, in Wellington and Christchurch as far as we know. [00:36:30] And when I look through those names. Well over, a good 60 percent are dead. The others are still alive, and their institutional knowledge of those very early days of Gay Liberation Front are left wanting and need to be followed up as soon as we possibly can. So that institutional knowledge and the knowledge of them as individuals is not lost to the queer community in New Zealand forever. [00:37:00] Just in terms of why people possibly do things, there have been a number of lesbian and gay Authors have thought very deeply about this and what seems to be the common thread as exemplified by Sarah Shulman who's an American gay activist and a prominent lesbian in the States. She's come up with this theory and view that people who join organizations like Gay Liberation Front in 1972 are the sorts of [00:37:30] individuals who have this It's angst to challenge authority and they're also the sort of people who are not prepared to be bystanders. And it's that sort of person that does move to join organisations like Gay Liberation Front and do the things that they do. I just found that that was an interesting concept to explain the personal behaviour of people in terms of their political activities. Um, [00:38:00] uh, in terms of my background, my background is such that my parents were the first, Marriage of a Samoan and a European in New Zealand. I've just got to check with Vincent Arlo that I might possibly not be the first half caste Samoan to be born in New Zealand, but certainly outside of Auckland, and I am. Um, My mother, as a 17 year old, was very determined and she was 18 when she got [00:38:30] married, my father was 41. She forced my father to come back and live in Palmerston North, all places in New Zealand, in the early 50s. So I grew up knowing full well that I Came from an interracial marriage, living in Palmerston North, speaking to people that I've met since, who have then worked out who I am. And then they come back and tell me, your parents stood out like a sore thumb, and then they described my father as exotic. And you just [00:39:00] realise that, and I knew at the time, your parents were noticed and you were noticed as being different. So that was my background, uh, ethnically. Uh, I also thought today that my background and my family was not the usual background. My parents actually operated as equals. My father did the cooking in the house, for example. My mother ran the finances. But it was a very equal relationship. And my father had this philosophy that you don't hit your kids at all. And that was [00:39:30] my way I was raised in that sort of atmosphere. And basically my father, who was a Samoan part, of my family. His only wish for his children was you get an education, you learn as much as you can, so that you can actually not do the sort of jobs that I have to do. So, that's my background, and they're my influences that have [00:40:00] predetermined basically how I've operated since. I Obviously had a very unconventional upbringing and I was interested in quite varied things. It was very interesting seeing about Patrice Lord Mumba's gold tooth being returned from Belgium to, the Congo, because I remember avidly following what was going on in the Congo, going on in the Congo over 1960, [00:40:30] 1961, and I know that Patrice Lumumba was a hero of mine. And I remember reading about him being killed. So that's how. I was only five or six at the time, so that's the level of interest that I had in things outside of me and outside of New Zealand. So it's not surprising that my last year at high school I joined the New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society, so that was a copy of the sub that I found in my archives, still around. Uh, certainly I had an anti colonialist upbringing, [00:41:00] that was pretty important. In terms of being a sissy and a pansy I got identified fairly early and my attitude was. I'm not into sport. I'm a bookworm. So what? Uh, by the age of 14, I definitely knew I had same sex desire. But even in a place like Palmerston North, Uh, there were supportive teachers in Palmerston Boys High who were quite open to discuss homosexual authors, films like Midnight Cowboy with us. So, I found a certain openness, even at, [00:41:30] Even in Palmerston North, even at a school like Palmerston North Boys High School. So, all of those things drove me to get politically active. So, I joined Gay Liberation in 1973. This is the letter back to me from Mike Ross. And I just thought it was interesting in the sense that it states the goals of Gay Liberation Wellington when you, if you have a read through it and are able to.[00:42:00] And just. A response back to my inquiry to join to just give an idea of the effort that was made by leading people in Wellington Gay Liberation to respond to requests. This is the sort of request that this is the way they responded to requests, which reading through this, you just think these are people that are busy trying to do university studies as my cause, but he's still willing to find time to write this. letter to me, and not just give me bare [00:42:30] facts, but to give me a bit of detail. So that's why that's up. That was my very first newsletter that I got from Mike with that letter, back in June, uh, that was the June July 1973 newsletter. And Mike, I must have obviously responded back to Mike, handing him my, uh, giving him my, yeah, I must have had another query, because this is giving me details about the And the other thing I found interesting in this was the two books that you [00:43:00] could get that would give you an idea of our way of thinking in Wellington Gay Liberation Front. Uh, that was the famous Fifteen Wesley Road that I talked about earlier. And those two books I obviously went out and got as fast as I could within a few years of getting that letter. So they're still in my library. The other thing I also found interesting was Marilyn Johnson, who was one of the leaders of Wellington Gay Liberation. She [00:43:30] also found time to write to me. She wrote me quite long letters, and she was the president. And And this bit is up here because it talks about the relationships between male and female members of Wellington Gay Liberation, which just shows, well, at that time, they were very cordial, they got on really well, but obviously in 1974 things changed a bit. But I just found it interesting that this is [00:44:00] correspondence from a lesbian who was one of the major leaders of Gay Liberation Front. Telling me and Palmerston North, this is how we work together. So that's why that's there. And, uh, for the Venn Young Bill, Gay Liberation members from the three localities came to Wellington and made a submission to the Parliamentary Select Committee. I was in a relationship with Michael Ross at the time and my parents saw [00:44:30] The newspaper articles saw Michael doing a TV interview and this was three or four days after that all happened, that Mike wrote to me and just to ask how are things at home. Just to show you what sort of per what sort of person or people were like who were leading Gay Liberation that even though I was his partner, still concerned. I was a member of Socialist Action League, [00:45:00] and they were quite happy for Socialist Action League members to be involved in gay liberation activities. And the stance of Socialist Action League was, our line is we support gay liberation, but the other thing that I think is really important is that they gave, Those of us that wanted to be involved in gay liberation, complete free reign to do what we wanted to do, and as much as we wanted to do. And it's in that context that I just let, that I'm just going to quickly go through my personal involvement. So, this is a letter from Julie, [00:45:30] Judith Eames to me, right at the end of 1976, saying, essentially, we know that you're coming down to the formation of the National Gay Rights Association, and this is what. Uh, this is a bit of information about it, and would you like people that we get contact details from, from the parts north to contact you to find out what more they can do? So that was my first direct involvement of being [00:46:00] called upon to go to that meeting in January with the viewpoint that I would go back to Palmerston North to set up Mara, which is what I did in 1977 before we hit our first meeting. There was. For capping week a dance called pro pofta and that was on March the 28th, so I Knew a few I knew a number of other people in pumps north But I knew that they would not go in a protest side of the summer own So I saw on [00:46:30] April the 3rd in the Tribune, which is a paper that came out in the Sunday, an item by the Massey University President, who talked about Capping Week, and there was this bit here, that I'll remember for a long, uh, there are lots of different things about capping because I have enjoyed the whole bit, but one thing I'll remember for a long time was the galeber outside the Propofte Du, who had a billboard reading, Propofte Continues Galeb Oppression, and he walked up and down outside all night in deadly earnest at the Awapuni [00:47:00] Hotel. So. Uh, that was on that day, and then on the Tuesday, uh, I got my own back because Musa had a meeting to sort out its constitution and put up resolutions, so I obviously put a resolution up that the Musa Dance Pro Puff to be replaced by a fancy dress function during the capping period, and that got accepted at the Musa meeting and became official Musa policy, and that was published in the chaff of 1977.[00:47:30] The next day was me organising the first meeting of Manawatu Gay Rights Association and even though Manawatu Gay Rights Association is in a bit of limbo at the moment it is still officially the longest serving. Queer community organisation left in New Zealand. So I got half a dozen people along to that meeting, and they were stalwarts, and we got a meeting, we got a group up and running, that was gonna last after I left at the [00:48:00] end of that year to come and get a job in Wellington. Uh, one thing I do remember quite clearly is that I made the ethical decision that I would have no relationship with anybody in Palmerston North over that period, because I wanted everybody to see that I was setting up the organisation for non, for non personal reasons. I had no personal agenda, and I stuck with that, and the group is still running, so obviously I succeeded, but I [00:48:30] know consciously I made that absolute decision. Um, Between 1978 and 1981, I did most of the reporting for Socialist Action on gay activities in their paper Socialist Action. When I went back up to Palmerston, they, uh, the National Gay Rights Coalition needed somebody for the southern central region. So I put my hand up at the start of 1982. To be the regional rep. Nobody else was foolish enough to put their hand up, so I ended up [00:49:00] being the regional rep for the Northern Central Region for the National Gay Rights Coalition. And that's the position that I held to the end of 1983 when the National Gay Rights Coalition basically folded. Uh, it's interesting that I saw a thesis by a church minister on law reform. And he interviewed Phil Parkinson, and you see the quote quite clearly in the thesis, where [00:49:30] Phil Parkinson says, the reason why the National Gay Rights Coalition collapsed at the end of 1983 was because of the activist activities within the National Gay Rights Coalition of Trotskyites. And I thought about that for a long time and realized that I was the only Trotskyist that was involved in the National Gay Rights Coalition. So, I thought, I will put that right at some stage. So, no, I went through [00:50:00] and thought, of all the Socialist Action members, it was only me that was involved in the National Gay Rights Coalition in playing, playing an activist role. At that stage, I was not a member of the Socialist Action League, and I left on amicable terms because I wanted to invest time in my family. Uh, in my extended family. Right, um, This, this I want to cover because it's quite important. It's a piece of our history that is not known. [00:50:30] Linda Evans at the start of last year said I am trying to get a fix on what tingi and Malcolm McAllister did in terms of their push in the Gay Task Force to move the Gay Task Force in relation to the Homosexual Law Reform Bill campaign to move it from a conventional MP lobbying activity to a mass movement. And I gave her Malcolm [00:51:00] McAllister's phone number to contact, and then Gavin Young told me, said to me late last year, I intend to have a talk to Fran Wild, why she made the move over July of 1985 from a conventional campaign for the bill to a mass action campaign. And I said to Gavin. One of the reasons, one of the major reasons why she made the change is because of what Malcolm [00:51:30] McAllister and I were able to do in the Manawatu. I need to just say that MAGRA had full confidence in me to do the homosexual law reform bill campaign in the Manawatu. There was that level of trust that whatever I, whatever I organised would come back to them. and they would support. So, I was interested to have a look through this book that came out by Alison and Linda and to see Ntingi Instones write up that the Manuretu Gay Rights Association wrote [00:52:00] to the Gay Taskforce suggesting a wider nationally coordinated campaign and a national conference, which was then followed up by Malcolm McAllister and Dick Morrison coming to that same meeting to express their concerns about the opposition to the bill and how it should be dealt with. And there should be a counter campaign. And then it moved on that, that was the direction of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill campaign. Spreading the issue out, getting more support to have a mass action campaign. And this is the [00:52:30] level of detail that Tingi covered in her speech at the 20th anniversary of the Law Reform Bill being passed. But that's the original letter that I wrote up, and that's the only thing that's in the public record. When I went to the Palmerston North Library a couple of weeks ago, a couple of months ago, I did know that MAGRA had handed everything over to the Palmerston North Library. So I went and asked the person on the counter, and it turned out she's the [00:53:00] one who's gone through everything that's been handed over. It's not much. She was halfway through digitalising it. So I And I said to her, do you have anything from MAGRA about the homosexual or rebel campaign? And she said, there's absolutely nothing. So I started to show her what I've got. And these are some of the things I've got. And this is what Malcolm and I were trusted to do and went ahead and did. So what we did was we thought we were going to organize a meeting with Fran in Palmerston North on May the 7th, [00:53:30] but Fran was. I was not able to make that meeting and it had to be cancelled. So the whole idea was, we will show Fran Wild what a mass campaign would look like. So, we went around groups in the manner of two, explaining the bill and getting support from their organisation for the bill. So we had all that set up to go on May the 7th, but we had to delay the meeting because Fran had other commitments. [00:54:00] So, 13th of May, that's an example of the Manurewa Two District Trades Council. They came out already to say that they would support a public meeting to discuss the bill and they were willing to provide a speaker, so that was the sort of support we were starting to line up. We had 17th, it was an absolute packed meeting. And Fran was [00:54:30] frankly shocked that a place like Palmerston North could get so many people to a public meeting on the bill, and everybody at the meeting was in support of the bill. These are the speakers that we had, so we organised a range of speakers. Obviously we let Fran speak first, and then Fran had to sit through speaker after speaker from other organisations. expressing their organisation support [00:55:00] for the bill. So, the Trades Council, Clerical Workers Union, a prominent Maori activist in terms of what they were going to do, the Women's Resource Centre Collective, Roger Middlemas, the Meat Workers Union at the time supported the bill and he spoke, and also the famous Te Rotea branch of the Labour Party, that branch was totally in support of the bill and they spoke. And then I finished off. And that was what convinced [00:55:30] Fran that if you do the legwork, you can build a mass campaign in support of the bill, and that will make the difference. Now that piece of our history during the Law Reform Bill campaign is not known, because it's not in the public record, because I've got all the materials for it. And you're just getting a bit of a scoop, but that's, uh, one. new thing that Gavin is, Gavin Young is going to have for his book. [00:56:00] But I'm just sharing it with you tonight that this is what we did. When I say we, Malcolm and I, Malcolm McAllister and I did that and it was with the full support of MAGRA and even though we did the work with these other organisations, just want to acknowledge it was with the full support and backing of the Manitou Gay Rights Association and it was the work that we were allowed to do with their So the work was done on behalf of MAGRA. And then, [00:56:30] Fran obviously decided it was the way to go. So that was the July 11th meeting. So you can see the timeline that Malcolm and I scrambled to get something done. So that when Dick Morrison and Malcolm McAllister went to the Gay Task Force meeting, they would be able to say, this has been done, this locality, this is the way it can go. And we waited until Fran had decided, yes, this is the way to go. And this is the letter that we started sending out [00:57:00] to supporters and organisations. And you can see down there that Fran Wild has given initiatives such as this their wholehearted backing. So we did the work and then paused, waiting for Fran to make the change. And then we came and That letter there clearly, clearly shows that we did wait for Fran to make that change and to officially say it's okay before we did [00:57:30] any further work. And this is an example of some of the other things we did in the Manawatu in terms of connecting Soweto with Stonewall as an example of some of the political activity that we did. So I've probably well and truly gone over time, but I think it's probably best that I leave it there. And it's probably good in my case that I'm over prepared rather than under prepared. It's just taken me a bit long to get through. And I think it's appropriate to finish at this [00:58:00] point here as an example of a person from the left being allowed, being given the freedom by my left wing organisation, which was a Marxist organisation to work in the gay liberation movement and to work with other gay colleagues to do bits and pieces. Thanks very much.

IRN: 3489
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/idahobit_panel_discussion_2022.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004671
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093061
TITLE: IDAHOBIT 2022
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Albie Lockie; Anoushka Majmudar; Cate Tipler; Elizabeth Kerekere; Joel Holdsworth; Rihari Campbell-Collier; Taine Polkinghorne
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Albie Lockie; Anoushka Majmudar; Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Act 2021; Cate Tipler; Chlöe Swarbrick; Elizabeth Kerekere; Eugenie Sage; Golriz Ghahraman; Human Rights Commission; International Day Against Homophobia, Biphobia, Transphobia and Intersexphobia (IDAHOIBT - 17 May); Joel Holdsworth; Make It 16: Lower the Voting Age; Member of Parliament; Online event; Parliament buildings; Post Primary Teachers Association (PPTA); Rainbow Greens - Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand; Ricardo Menendez March; Rihari Campbell-Collier; Taine Polkinghorne; Youth Parliament; agender; bisexual; gay; gender and sexuality club; grandparents; homosexual; marriage equality; mis-pronoun; non-binary; parents; school; sex education; takatāpui; toxic masculinity; trans
DATE: 17 May 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: Online event
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: February 2024
TEXT: Kia ora. People are still rolling in. So it's lovely. And please keep introducing yourselves. We'll scroll through those. So I think it's time to open up our hui. And yes, just ngā kua tāi mai nei ki tēnei pōa ki tēnei webinar. Ah, ki te tautoko tēnei kaupapa i pāna ki a mātou ngā hunga takatāpui, ah, me ngā hunga kahukura. I'm going to pass over, I'm Elizabeth Kerekere. I'm [00:00:30] the spokesperson for Rainbow Communities for the Green Party. And, uh, we've got an amazing line up for you today, but I'm going to hand it to, uh, My Youth MP, this is Rihari to open with a mihi to you, kia koe, and a karakia. Kia ora. Nā tēnā rā tātou, me karakia mātou, kia u, kia tau, kia tuturu. Ka tākina te kawa, ko te kura nui, ko te [00:01:00] kura roa. Ka tākina te kawa, ko te rongo takitake, ko te rongo marua, ko te rongo marua, ka tākina. Tēnā rā tātou. Ka tākina tēnā rā tātou.[00:01:30] I just wanna thank everybody for coming tonight and for us just to be together talking. About our [00:02:00] experiences, um, what this day means towards us, the Airohapa, and yeah, tēnā rā tātou. Ngā mihi, thank you so much for that. This is a way to open up and create safety in this space. So it's a way, too, of acknowledging all of the cultures who are here, all of the spiritualities, the language that we bring to this space, and who we are in the [00:02:30] world. Today we celebrate Ida Hobbit, but also last week was Youth Week, and so this is a platform for our youth MPs to talk to you here today. But we have the privilege of co hosting with the Rainbow Greens, and so I'm going to pass over to Rosemary to kick our kōrero off, and then we'll be going to tame our pōkenhorn from the Human Rights Commission, and then to our youth MPs. So kia ora, Rosemary. Kia ora. Thanks Elizabeth. Kia ora koutou. I'm [00:03:00] Rosemary. Um, I use they them pronouns. I'm here repping the Rainbow Greens. I'm one of the Rainbow Greens social media co coordinators and um, yeah, I'll be here on behalf of the network tonight. Um, I'm been in the Green Party for a while now and I'm, um, a keen green bean as I like to say and I like to put my hands up for lots of different things because I just love helping my community and Um, I've said before in one of my little bios, so I'm going to say it now, um, they say home is where the heart is and my home is [00:03:30] with Aotearoa's queer community, so I feel at home here with y'all tonight, um, and, oh, another thing, what's another thing about me? I, um, I'm also running for, um, I'm a candidate for Wachimata Local Board this year, so I'm all over the place doing lots of things, but yeah, excited to be here tonight. Um, and in terms of housekeeping, um, we are on live streaming on Facebook and we're also on Zoom as well. We'll be doing a Q and A a little bit later on, and if [00:04:00] you're on Zoom, you'll see that Q and A function down the bottom, so you can. put your questions in there. If you put them in the chat, we might not see them, but if you put them in the Q and A function, that's where we will see them. So that would be great. Um, and after this little bit from me, then you'll hear from Tane and hear from the youth MPs as well. So we've got lots of really awesome guests here tonight. Um, I wanted to, Say a little bit of information about the day. Um, IDAHOBIT, as we've said, stands for [00:04:30] International Day Against Homophobia, Biphobia, Interphobia, and Transphobia. Um, I did my little research beforehand and that told me that the day, May 17th, was chosen to commemorate the decision to remove homosexuality from the international classification of diseases. of the World Health Organization in 1990. So that was when they chose to remove it. Um, and the day itself started in 2004. Transphobia was added to the name of the day, um, in 2009. Originally, it was just International Day Against [00:05:00] Homophobia. Biphobia was added on there in 2015. Interphobia is still not added. So that already speaks to what, how much more we still need to do to protect and represent and care for and learn about our intersex fauna. Um, yes. So we'll be hearing about, um, how we can challenge these phobias in our lives and also just about some, you know, some queer joy as well. Um, and about our youth MPs. And, um, I guess it's wonderful [00:05:30] experiences and maybe not so wonderful experiences, but that's okay. Cause we're here in a safe space together, um, without any further ado, unless I've missed anything, Elizabeth, I'm just wondering if maybe you'd like to just give a quick overview of some of the work that. Um, and I'm just wondering if you could talk a little bit about the work that Rainbow Greens have done over the last little while. Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Um, I had that in my little plug section, but I will move it on up. Um, yeah, Rainbow Greens have been really busy over the last [00:06:00] year or so. I was fortunate to join the exec last year. I think it's just been just under a year. And in that time, it was unusually busy. Um, we had, we had, um, the BDMRR bill, um, In action at the same time as the conversion practices prohibition bill. So we were doing lots of submission workshops at that time. Um, the rainbow greens network worked on submissions for both of those bills as well.[00:06:30] And, um, so we're happy to see them both pass now, which is really great. Um, our rainbow greens BDMRR submission was also named in the report as, um, one that was influential and helpful for the committee making their. final decision. So that was really significant for us. Um, we've also got a petition that we will put a link to, um, either now or later on, a petition to create a ministry for rainbow communities, which would be really awesome in parliament. And I [00:07:00] know that Tain is going to speak a little bit about that. As well. Um, other things that the Rainbow Greens do we host awesome, um, panels and webinars like this. Um, so you can hear from us. And basically what Rainbow Greens is, is a network within the Green Party of Aotearoa and made up of our beautiful rainbow people and we fight for queer rights, Takataki rights, um, in the Green Party and in government and in our lives and in [00:07:30] the world. Um, anything I've missed off the top of my head? Um, no, that sounds, that seems like everything. Um, well, anything that I've missed, um, I'm sure. I will, people will fill me in on in the comments and I will also say later on as well. So you'll have no shortage of hearing from me and from all of us and all about the Rainbow Greens. Um, yeah, without any further ado, I'm gonna pass over to our first speaker who is Tain. Kia[00:08:00] ora Rosemary, how's my sound? My headphones died about two minutes into this. I thought, what could possibly go wrong tonight? And then that happened. So that was a great way to start. Um, kia ora tātou. Thank you very much for having me tonight. Greetings to everyone. I can see on the screen, everyone joining us from their motu. Um, and also just want to briefly acknowledge those [00:08:30] who aren't with us tonight, who couldn't make it, who Um, who, who aren't here and we are thinking of them as well. Uh, ko wai au, ko Tane Polkinghorne, tōku ingoa, ko ahau te kaitohu mātua takatāpui mō te Kahuitika tāngata. Um, so, uh, my name is Tane Polkinghorne. I work for the Human Rights Commission as their Senior Human Rights Advisor on sexual orientation, [00:09:00] gender identity and expression and sex characteristics. I've been in my role about four and a half years now, and I'm very, um, very lucky to be doing this work. Um, I, Rosemary's actually talked a little bit about the thought, the things that I thought I would cover. So, um, Kia Ora, thank you for, uh, for going through that [00:09:30] already, um, as they've said. Um, The 17th of May was the day that the World Health Organization chose to remove homosexuality from their international classification of diseases in 1990. And, uh, when I was talking about this with my dad earlier in the week, he said. 1990. And I said, yeah. And he said, not 1890. And I said, no, dad, it was only 32 years ago. And I said, for [00:10:00] trans people, uh, they only removed, uh, gender identity from the international classification of diseases and 20. 18, four years ago. So we have a long way to go, whānau, to depathologize and to bring our identities out of this kind of really narrow binary way of thinking, um, that has been as a large result of, uh, colonialism and colonization, especially [00:10:30] here in Aotearoa. Um, this morning in Parliament, Elizabeth has already alluded to this, the Human Rights Commission and the Cross Parliamentary Rainbow Network, um, we came together to hold an event where we raised five different flags on the forecourt of Parliament, the bisexual flag, the rainbow flag, the progress pride flag, Uh, the intersex flag and the trans [00:11:00] flag, and, um, that was important to do on this day to, uh, to speak to the, you know, the existing, the ongoing discrimination stigma of violence that we, uh, continue to be subject to. And Um, we have the most rainbow parliament in the world, and that's a really special thing, something to be celebrated and to have that kind of [00:11:30] representation in our House of Representatives is so important. And I think about what that might have meant for me in my younger years, uh, as well. For me, Idahobbit is about celebrating the wins that we have. Had so, um, Rosemary has already named a couple of them in the last 12 months. We passed the Births, Deaths, Marriages, Relationships Registration Act [00:12:00] or the BDMRR. Finally, in December, we passed the Conversion Practices Prohibition Legislation Act in February. And we have many, many more things to do to improve the rights and the lives of our rainbow communities around Aotearoa. For us as the Human Rights Commission, I'm wearing a human rights [00:12:30] commission. T shirt tonight on brand. Um, you know, for us as the Human Rights Commission, this day is about raising that awareness of the discrimination that we face. Uh, I, I tell people that, you know, um, in my role at the commission, I'm very fortunate to have it, but I hear a lot about a lot of, uh, terrible stuff. I see a lot of the pointy end of the. discrimination that we face. No one has ever called me up and said, [00:13:00] Tain, my human rights were so respected today. So, uh, you know, I'd like a few more of those calls, but in the meantime, we keep doing the work. Mahia tamahi. There's so much more to do. Um, A couple of years ago, about 18 months ago, the Human Rights Commission released the, the PRISM report, holding it up now. It's about, um, 50, 60 pages, and we looked at a number of [00:13:30] different human rights issues as they affect our rainbow takatāpui communities in Aotearoa. Um, there was a whole lot of recommendations in that report and fortunately a number of them have been achieved, ticked off the list, but there is so many more in there that we would like to see some progress on. I'll name just a couple. Amending the Human Rights Act, Section 21, to include trans, non binary, intersex [00:14:00] people. Um, and the prohibited grounds of discrimination. We want to see changes to our what are known as the hate speech provisions or the incitement to hate as they're technically called in the Human Rights Act. Uh, we've got adoption coming up this year, the surrogacy reforms. So those are all important issues for our communities. As well. Finally, and I'll just end on this. I wanted to make a plug [00:14:30] for the Human Rights Commission's complaints service. So if people believe that they have been discriminated against on the basis of their sexual orientation or gender, gender expression, sex characteristics, they are able to make a confidential, free, uh, independent, independent, complaint to us and we are able to offer a dispute resolution service to try and resolve those complaints for people. Um, [00:15:00] thank you for having me. I have talked a lot about discrimination, but there is a lot of joy that we have in living our lives and being our authentic selves. Every day I wake up, I, I feel so grateful for. Being able to be who I am in this country. So thank you once again for having me and I will pass back to Rosemary. I'll just actually going to jump in here because Tain is, uh, extremely humble. The PRISM report was [00:15:30] produced by the human rights commission, but Tain wrote it. So, uh. Just so you know, that is an important thing to have in your library, so get a copy of that report if you don't have one. And we're going to start off with our first youth MP, and then they're going to go and order all five of them. And I might have to sneak out to speak in the house, so we're just, we're going to roll. So kia ora.[00:16:00] I just wanna go back to. She has led, um, us [00:16:30] into, oh well, especially myself, believing that I can do whatever I can do. She's, her saying, kia whakatane au ia hou, led her to have the power of the man, of the man. So she can be one. You know, bad, this big boss in Te Whakatohea. A woman that no one can, you know, [00:17:00] no one can mess with. And that is what I strive to be myself. And for me to teach, um, Ngā Uri Whaka Heke, the ones coming after me. What I prize mostly in life is teaching my nephews, my nieces, how to be a good person that I want to create an environment for them [00:17:30] that they can feel safe to be themselves and not to discriminate against others and to let people be who they want to be. Myself today is very important to me because I am, uh, I've experienced discrimination, um, both as a [00:18:00] gay man, but as a Māori as well. And, um, for me, these issues should be and need to be dealt with because it takes a moment to break something, but a lifetime to fix. You know, like when you try to heal someone from a broken heart, uh, broken [00:18:30] soul, that's a battle long going with, um, our mental health statistics, those, as for me, I'm a survivor of mental health. I've lived with depression, I've experienced others who had depression in my own household Those are the, those are [00:19:00] the stories we must exhume. Um, and I just want to go back to, you know, when you're that little kid running around the marae, the pā, just having fun with your cousins, and they didn't care what you were, who you were, they just loved you for you. And those are the times that I just, When I go back to, but I know I can never, [00:19:30] but stepping out into the world, you see, you just see the mamai that everyone has lived with, has experienced, and you feel in your soul that how could. How can our society become so, I don't know, so, you [00:20:00] know, māmae against a group, or a sys well, I like to call it that they, um, separate us in cauldrons and octoroons, but actually, it's Tangata kotahi mātou. We all are one people. And just to leave you guys off, and I want to leave on a good note, and just to say that we have role models in our community [00:20:30] as Māori. My uncle, Uncle Con, he used to live here. He used to be at the marae here. Um, he's a great leader. He's Takatapui. And when I go onto the marae and he's standing, not at the pae, but at the Whare Tuina o Karanga, so we can come onto the marae. I'm like, that is the mana I would like to hold. And seeing that Not only [00:21:00] that he crosses the realms of women and men, but he is appreciated, he is, um, he is thanked. Thanks, because he gets on, does the karanga, then goes, does the whaikōrero, then gets in the back to do our cooking for the manuhiri. You know, people like him are people to I would like to strifle. Tēnā rā tātou. That's me. [00:21:30] Awesome. Thank you so much, Rihari. Um, Anushka? Uh, kia ora everyone. My name is Anushka. Uh, I'm 17 turning 18 in eight days. Uh, thank you everyone for coming. I'm also a youth MP for Ricardo Menendez March. Um, I'm from Ōtātahi Christchurch, originally from Tāmaki Makaurau in Auckland. Um, I go by she, they pronouns and I'm bisexual. [00:22:00] International Day Against, um, Homophobia, Biphobia, Interphobia, and Transphobia. To me, it's a very important way for us to celebrate how far we've come in terms of progression, like, from, like you said before, how, uh, homosexuality and transgenderism was seen as a, Disease or a mental illness in 1990, and it's good to see on a day like this, how far we've come from there to now, [00:22:30] it's a good way to acknowledge and commit to the progress we need to continue having to eliminate all sorts of violence and oppression and discrimination and exclusion of all L. G. B. C. Q. Plus people. Um, it's an important Way for us to address, uh, sorry. It's important for us to use that activism to address the issues as head on as possible [00:23:00] to be able to make as much change as we can and work further, um, to take down the structural colonial and, um, institutional systems of discrimination that. All LGBTQ plus people face in Aotearoa, and not just in Aotearoa, really anywhere around the world. Um, yeah, I'm very, however, like, I'm very proud to be a queer woman of color in Aotearoa, because we are, um, [00:23:30] one of the most progressive countries in the world, really. Um, and I'm proud to be able to express myself. In a way that I wouldn't be able to insert other certain parts of the world as well. And, yeah, there is always ways to improve, but I think, um, as we are now, I'm, I'm happy to look at out there and see a very progressive place. [00:24:00] Rather than a very backhanded, conservative, uh, colonial area. Thank you, Amuhi. Thank you, Anushka. Yeah, still working on decolonizing Aotearoa. Absolutely. Um, we're passing next to Joel. Uh, hi. Um, my name's Joel. I'm 18. I'm Eugenie Sage's youth [00:24:30] MP. Um, I'm transgender. Um, and so, uh, the stays. Pretty important to me. Um, this morning, actually, I got a call from, um, my Nan, who's, who's 80, and she's a staunch Catholic, um, and she asked me how, she couldn't think of the word transition, so she said, how's your transformation into a butterfly going, um, which was really, like, nice, [00:25:00] like, that kind of thing, I think, just hearing that, um, from my Nan, who, like, She's so old and, and her generation just, she never knew a gay person, she never knew a trans person, and yet she can, you know, she can say something like that to me. Um, it's just like, it's amazing to experience, um, having supportive people like that. Uh, and So, yeah, that, that's, [00:25:30] like, the kind of thing that I want to, you know, celebrate, um, being able to have that in my life. Uh, but, you know, there's still stuff that, um, like, legally we're still getting there in terms of, like, equality. I think socially there's, there's a lot of small things that you don't really think of if you're not, um, like, I can only speak to being trans, but, um, that you don't think of. But. Uh, like, I work with kids in, uh, after school care, and [00:26:00] when kids, uh, will ask me, like, or tell me, like, Oh, your voice is getting deeper, or, like, I have to correct them on pronouns or something, I don't feel comfortable to, like, expand on that in any way because I feel that my job is in jeopardy if I do, um, if they tell their parents that I've told them that I'm transgender and they don't like that and they complain, I feel like I'm putting myself at risk disclosing that information. So I think, [00:26:30] um, just recognizing You know, the, the, the small things, uh, is really important. Um, like, the big things too, obviously. But, uh, you know, those small things add up, I think. Not being able to feel comfortable in that way is, like, pretty impactful. Um, but Yeah, I think having a day to be able to recognize that, um, at least for like, I've just been speaking on my own experiences, but, [00:27:00] um, yeah, just having a day to, you know, celebrate, um, the, the victories and, uh, recognize what we need to do better is, uh, really great. Yeah, I think that's, that's just about me. Oh, beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing, Joel. And yeah, I can see in the comments, we're really enjoying that, um, butterfly transformation metaphor. That's one of my personal favorites as well. Thank you. Um, and next up we've got Albie. Hello. [00:27:30] Um, I'm Albie. I am the youth MP for Close Warbrick, Auckland Central electorate. And I've been given a lot of different labels in my life, you know, is like, whether those are ones I give myself or that society gives me, you know, I'm autistic, I have mental illness, I'm a foster kid, I'm queer, it's just another thing. And at the end of it, I have had to really forge out within that, [00:28:00] I'm just me, I'll be, you know, there was all this people expecting me to be these things. And I And both some of those things and also so much more than that, if that makes sense, like, you know, I go between people telling me, don't be limited by that or don't just be the queer kid. But also I have people tell me how I should be as somebody that's like, make up your mind. And I think within the intersectionality of having a lot of different [00:28:30] things, you know, I've had to see how my queerness interacts with all of that when my queerness is the least important thing to me. You know, it's like. That's just who I am, you know? I just exist as a person and that happens to just not be considered the normal. Like, there is literally nothing weird about me saying no thank you to gender. There's nothing weird about me also saying no thank you to gender in the context of who I'm interested [00:29:00] in. Like, but it's become such a thing, you know, when I first went into care. I was put in a girl's home, um, and you'd think that that's bad enough on its own, but There was a lot of shit there. I was told a lot of stuff about my trans identity at the time. I was exclusively using he, him. They had an easier time with that. There was, you know, a non binary kid in the house and not only did they refuse to use their pronouns, one of the caregivers actually screamed at me one time when I [00:29:30] corrected them because it's not grammatically correct and told me I'm not allowed to call them they, them because Yeah, that was just not allowed to be a thing apparently. You know, all throughout that time, I don't think people realize when you haven't been institutionalized that that's very gendered. That is a huge thing. You know, you go for a system that is already not going to hold you. It's not going to [00:30:00] support you. That is, you have to advocate for another layer of your needs within that. And like, I think on a lot of levels I've had to advocate for my needs. I was saying, I didn't even want to come to this conference in the first place because I was sick of being the queer kid, you know. I am sick of it. Defining me. It's like, I am sick of it being something that matters because it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter at all. You know, I have been pushed out of a school because I was queer and refused to [00:30:30] sit down and take stuff. I was called a faggot by a kid who knew very much I was queer and was told by the vice principal in front of my mother, if he wants to be a boy, he can expect to be called a faggot. So that was fun, but the good news is my mom let me drop out of that school and that sucked, so it was a win win. But, you know, there's also, there's also the joy within it, like, I ended [00:31:00] up going to a place that was super supportive of me as a queer person, it just didn't matter, and I've definitely found a lot of community within that. So Yeah, I guess that's my spiel. Thank you, I'll be well spieled. Um, I, as someone who's also said no thank you to gender, I loved that bit as well. Um, our last youth MP is Kate. [00:31:30] Kia ora, um, I'm Kate, I use they them pronouns, and I'm the youth MP for Galros Garaman, uh, but I myself am based in Tāmaki Makaurau. Um, wow, I'd just like to start by giving a tōtoko to my fellow youth MPs. Uh, everything everyone has said today has absolutely resonated me, uh, with me and it's just been so inspiring to hear everyone's stories and journeys with queerness. Um, particularly what [00:32:00] Rihari said, it takes a moment to break a heart and a lifetime to fix it. That resonated with me especially because to me that's all about, um, what Idahobbit should be and what Idahobbit Um, as queer people, we're told a lot that microaggressions don't matter, you know, we should just get over it when people misgender us, when people belittle us, even when people use slurs against us, as Albie has highlighted. But those microaggressions [00:32:30] don't matter. don't feel very micro to us and they're actually quite significant. So thank you to Rihari for um, touching on that. Um, for me today, I'm both reminded of the progress that we have made and the progress we are still yet to make. Uh, queer people have such a rich history in Aotearoa. And I was too young to remember a lot of progress we made with things like the marriage equality bill. But for me, the first time I really saw queerness being [00:33:00] discussed and debated in politics was with the bill to ban conversion therapy. Um, when that bill finally passed, that was an incredible time of joy. Every queer person I know in Aotearoa was celebrating. And it just felt like we'd made a huge step forward, but at the same time, my local MP voted against the bill to ban conversion therapy. And I remember feeling so upset and so frustrated and angry that I was being represented by someone in [00:33:30] parliament who doesn't even think that I should have rights. And I know many people in my electorate felt the same, and many people across the country felt the same, that we still have MPs in Parliament who don't care about queer people. I'm incredibly grateful for the leadership we have, both in Parliament and out of Parliament, to counter those conservative voices that are a minority today, but should be even more of a minority and non existent. I think the political [00:34:00] landscape we find ourselves in today with queerness, um, matches my own experiences with coming out. People always think they know you better than you. Um, I came out as bisexual when I was 12 and I came out as non binary when I was 15. Neither of those identities have changed for me, but both times when I came out, people told me, you know, it's just a phase. You're going to grow out with it. You're going to choose a gender to be, you're going to choose a gender who like, uh, And that hasn't [00:34:30] been true at all. So I don't think I'm alone in that experience, which is why I brought that up. I don't think I'm alone in being bullied or being called slurs or having to leave spaces like the school I was at because they're no longer safe for me. Our suicide stats suggest that I'm not alone, and so do our mental health stats generally. Most of my queer friends and community have struggled with their own mental health, and that's not their own fault. That just shows how much [00:35:00] we still have to do as a society to make sure queer youth feel supported. My biggest support and love is young queer people in Aotearoa. I am proud to be part of the make it 16 campaign, which I feel is so intrinsically linked to queerness because most queer people are young people and young people, a lot of young people are queer more than any other generation. So by lowering the voting age and by getting more young [00:35:30] people involved in politics. I do hope that more MPs, whether they're queer or not queer, will see a need to advocate for policies that better help queer people. I think that's pretty much all I had to say and share, but just again, tōtoko what everyone else on this call has said. It's been an honour to speak alongside other youth MPs. I think young people are not just the leaders of tomorrow, young people are the leaders of today, and that very much rings true [00:36:00] with this call. So thank you. Beautiful. Thank you so much, Kate. What a good quote to end on. And yeah, I'm honored to be in the presence of some leaders of today right now. Um, thank you so much for all your korero and for being so open as well. Um, something that I really loved was how different each one of your, um, little snippets, little speeches were. And just give us an insight into your experience, um, the good and the bad. And, um, and also. Yeah, just who you are [00:36:30] and what we can do to combat, um, homophobia, biphobia, interphobia, transphobia, queerophobia in general. Um, we're going to move on to our Q and A section now. Um, we have a first question which comes to us from Zoe. Um, what are some things that would make life easier for you and your friends? Um, I saw this question, I was thinking about Things that wouldn't make it easier. Things that we can do to combat all these phobias. Um, for me, something that I focus on [00:37:00] all the time is having those little, those little moments. Um, And fighting against challenging any kind of rhetoric that it promotes negative stereotypes, negative views of trans people, of queer people, of rainbow people. Um, something that I found that worked for me, I've, um, in like quite a professional meeting recently with people that were 15 plus years older than me. And so I felt a little bit out of place. And, um, [00:37:30] I thought I was having trouble, you know, repping for myself the way that I would rep for other trans people, other people, other queer people. And I thought to myself, how would you respond to these questions, these remarks, um, to misgendering of myself if there was another young trans person in the room? And I was like, and that was like this magical little switch where I was like, Oh, I would. that I would definitely correct them because I want that trans person to feel safe. And then it was like I was taking care of like the baby [00:38:00] trans person inside me. Um, yeah, that's one of my little things is challenging, um, any kind of challenging misgendering, um, having those conversations when you do hear your friends say stuff that you're like, that actually isn't really. The right terminology. Let's have a little talk about that. Um, what are some things that would make life easier for you and your friends? Um, Tane, did you want to add a little? Thanks Rosemary. I would love to hear the answer from some [00:38:30] of our young people. Perhaps I'll, I'll leave it to them. Awesome. All good. Um, great. Well, we can go to Kate. Yeah. I really liked what you said about challenging misgendering. Um, Rosemary, I think for me, a lot of the time I can accidentally give an impression that I don't care when I'm misgendered, but the reality is I'm actually so tired of having to correct people on my pronouns constantly and [00:39:00] giving people, uh, queer people a break from being misgendered is a huge help you can do as an ally, because it does get tiring and. We do want other people to stand up for us when we are misgendered. Thank you, Kate. Yeah. And, um, anyone else that would like to share? Um, Rehari? For me, it's finding your community. Um, as a tangata Māori, [00:39:30] I find My happiness in my people, um, when I go to the Matatini, listening to all the songs, that's where my aroha, that's where I find peace, and that's where, quite frankly, well, that's kia tau te wairua. For me it's just finding your people, but your friends, your [00:40:00] cousins, your mum, your dad, whoever it is, they will make life easier for you. I remember I have an uncle, Uncle Wowo, um, he used to be a drag queen here in Wellington, his name was Belinda, um, and mum was, I've never met him, he died before I was born, but mum would always tell me stories, and When he comes back home to settle down after the big city [00:40:30] life, you know, tells these fabulous stories with all his friends, going out clubbing, and where he felt most safe was Being together in a community, so for me, it's kia koutahi mātou, you know, kia ora. Absolutely, how special is it as queer people that we can, um, choose our family and have those really [00:41:00] special family bonds and that's one of my, well that's my favorite thing about being queer. I guess I can't really differentiate being queer and just being me, but um, the experience of Redefining societal expectations and finding beauty in what other people have, and what's othered traditionally in society. I think, I guess that's technically what queer means. But yeah, what a beautiful word that I love to have and celebrate. Um, and all of our rainbow community as well. [00:41:30] Oh, Albie, did you want to add one? Yeah. Um, my friends will shoot me if I don't point it out on this is, um, Safer rainbow spaces for young people, because a lot of the existing ones don't have enough support, you know, when you're taking a group of people that often do also have mental health issues because of the shit that we experience. Those groups can be a really dangerous place that can create. Some really bad vortexes, [00:42:00] you can end up with some unsavory people and that like just better support in our rainbow young people instead of just being like, Oh, you can handle yourself. You're fine. It's like, you know, these are people who are often very, like, I don't want to infantilize us, but you know, we are often vulnerable for different reasons. For example, like we think that we're going to be completely safe because nobody says, yeah, you know. All the same things that happen in straight communities, they can happen here. It's just you've got the extremists on one side saying, Oh, [00:42:30] well, the gay people are predators and stuff. So you're going to ignore them because You know, they're crazy, but you have the other side where you're sitting there thinking, like, you don't think about what's safe, you don't think about all of those things, so it's like, within the communities, just a lot more support, and, you know, with it being so taboo, it's still taboo, queerness is still taboo, talking about queer issues is still taboo, talking about, you know, being groomed as a queer person, people will turn around and say, well, that's because you're queer, [00:43:00] that's because you're hanging out with gay people, it's like, Uh, no, it's because I was around predators, and yeah, I just think they It's not me being against my own community to say that my own community is not always safe and that we need more support for our young people and protection of our young people and to wrap around and protect those young people. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Albie. And that's, it relates to the point that Kate and I were speaking [00:43:30] on how it's important to challenge those misconceptions, those negative stereotypes and everything. It's not just important to challenge those. In terms of, um, things that relate to Idahobbit, just to shorten it, um, but also, of course, all of the intersectionality within the rainbow community, because it's not just one thing being rainbow, you know, we have to challenge ableism in our community, we have to challenge racism, we have to decolonize our spaces in those ways, and, um, listen to people's lived experiences and honor that. I really appreciate you sharing. [00:44:00] Thank you so much. And, um, Joel and Anushka, did you have anything to add from that question? Otherwise, they're pouring in now. So we've got more. No, you're good. Well, you've got lots more to go to. Um, I might even go to YouTube for the next one if that's all right. Um, the next one is actually a little bit related to this one as a little tangent. Um, it's how can allies best support young queer people? So we've talked about, um, We've talked about what, how we can make it, how, what could make it easier for us and our friends. Um, what are the kind of [00:44:30] things that would be helpful for allies to do for us? Um, I'll just give us just maybe one sentence answer from each of you, if that's all good. Um, I'll go to Anushka first. Um, I think how allies can help, uh, queer people best is just by opening up spaces for us. Enough for us to have our voices heard a lot more out there and more open because it seems like Uh, we don't have [00:45:00] much, um, of a area or a, um, what's the word, much of a space to be able to voice our concerns and thoughts. Yeah. Thank you. Joel? Um, yeah, I would say, um, just coming from my own experience, um, that, uh, kind of asking what people, what would make people comfortable, not, um, kind of [00:45:30] making, um, Um, any assumptions, if you know someone who's queer, especially someone who's trans, there are a lot of things where you might not, um, think it would be very impactful, um, to say something or to do something, but it really is to that person. So just asking before you do something, um, that, uh, might make that person, um, feel crap. So, yeah. That's such a good point, Joel. And it's one I feel like I often forget as well, which is that [00:46:00] Even that sometimes it's, we say that it's important to correct people's misgendering, to stand up for our identities, but sometimes people aren't out everywhere. And so if you want to be a good ally to your queer friend, to your trans friend, to your Takatapui friend, have that conversation with them about what that looks like for them personally, because we're speaking quite generally as a rainbow community here, but of course everybody's different and they're going to have those different needs and wants. Um, cute. How can allies support [00:46:30] us? I'm not sure I have that much to add. Uh, to be honest, I think Anushka and Joel, uh, covered everything pretty well. I do like what you said, Rosemary, about our experiences being very nuanced. So I don't think we're able to speak on what allies can do for every queer person. And your best bet is to speak to the queer people you interact with and the queer people in your life about what they need. Awesome. Um, I'll be ready honey. Did you want to [00:47:00] add to this one as well? Gosh, I had something and it's gone out my brain for a second. I think that there's a level of making things a big deal when it's like one of the biggest things they can do is make sure we're comfortable, but also not make it a big thing. It's like, I'm here. That's something you don't eggshells around it. But there's also it's gone right out my brain. [00:47:30] Nope. It's gone. Don't worry, it happens to me all the time. Um, Uriha, I'm sorry to shake your head. Don't worry, we've got lots more to go to. Lots more questions to answer that I'll get to. Um, on this question, I just wanted to, Tain, if you wanted to add, yeah. Kia ora, Rosemary. I just wanted to add one small thing, which is, you know, we can think about allyship as people who are not Part of rainbow communities supporting us who are, but we can also think about allyship as, you know, for myself as a trans man [00:48:00] supporting, aspiring to be an ally to intersex people as well. So, um, different identities within our community, we can also be, and we should be in my view, allies to each other because this is a shared kaupapa. This is a shared fight. Oh, what an excellent point. Yes, we must do so much more to respect and support our intersex fauna. Thank you so much, Tane. Um, this next one is Youth MPs Focus. So it's going to be coming to [00:48:30] y'all. Um, it comes to us from Martin. As youth MPs, how do you pick your battles? There's so much to do. How do you find the things you focus on specifically? Um, I know this is going to be hard, but just in the interest of time, we'll keep it to a couple sentences if you can. So, um, just what that makes you think of, how do you pick your battles? What things do you focus on specifically as a youth MP? Um, just to go back to the top from the last one, um, I'll pass it to Anushka. Um, [00:49:00] how I pick my battles. Uh, that is quite a difficult question to ask, um, I mean, to answer, to be honest. Um, mostly I just try and pick the battles that affect me or my community, like the, uh, people of color community specifically, especially queer women of color. I think since queer women of color are something that I really am impacted by, I try and [00:49:30] Pick battles that are surrounding those issues. Yeah. Excellent. We'll go to Joel. Um, yeah, I usually, um, will go to things that, um, I feel like I can really make a difference in. Um, there are lots of big issues that I would be interested in fighting for, but I don't feel like I have, uh, you know, the power to do that. So I pick things I feel like I can make a change in.[00:50:00] That's a good one. That's something that I gravitate to as well. Um, Kate. Um, that's a really good question because it's something I struggle with. I often feel pulled in many different directions and struggle to balance everything. Um, as I'm sure most people on this call also feel. Um, what I found really attractive about Make It 16 is that by supporting young people, we can support solutions on a range of issues that I care about. So I think I [00:50:30] found a love for supporting youth voices because by supporting youth voices, Um, I can campaign for queer issues. I can campaign for the environment. I can campaign for women's issues like pro choice, which is relevant at the moment. So I think it's just finding the right cause for you and the cause that you are extremely passionate about and is your motivation for getting up every day. That sounds very dramatic, but I think. what you're most passionate about is what you need to focus on.[00:51:00] Yeah. Great advice. Um, we'll go Albie and then pass to be hurry after. Um, so for me, the way that I pick my battles is for one thing, what's already in front of me, I've already got so much on my plate, but also just the things that I feel like I personally have the most ability to give insight and effects to, which right now is foster youth advocacy through, um, I'm on a youth council for that. And, [00:51:30] Stuck within my city, Auckland Central Electorate, it's where I live, it's the community I see every day, it's what Chloe gives me projects for, I mean, use what you have, like, don't sit here being like, I want to tackle this big issue that I have no connections to, when I, I care about these issues that are right in front of me and I've got heaps of connections to them and ways that I can jump in and be involved and make a difference and feel like I have a choose sign.[00:52:00] For myself, how I pick my, my battles is from the lived experience. Um, I choose battles that I personally have witnessed and experienced, and then I can give my all into it. You know, emotion. For me, emotion leads my [00:52:30] whole world. I can't do something that my heart is not, not in a, is not in a good space or, you know, my heart needs to be in there like 110%. And that's where you can feel the emotion in the room. For me, it's to make the biggest impact. I can talk about all these, you know, big flash things, [00:53:00] but that's not me, you know, so yeah. Kia ora, tēnā koutou. Kia ora, thanks Rihari. Um, we're gonna bring it up, um, supportive, positive, wholesome with a question here from Brinley. Um, any warm fuzzies you had recently from your friends slash family who supported you and your queer identity? Um, I'll give you guys a little bit of time to think. I've So this question was thinking about it myself. Um, I'll start out with a sad bit and we'll go to a happy [00:53:30] bit. I recently came up to my parents as agender. I never thought I would do that because I knew that they wouldn't be accepting and wouldn't be understanding. Um, but I kind of just was forced into it because, um, my parents posted this like transphobic meme on Facebook and then wouldn't take it down or listen to me or any articles that I posted because they insisted it was just a joke. Um, and this led to a whole big. rupture and drama, and I was really stressed out, but eventually I was like, whatever I got to lose, um, they're the only [00:54:00] people in my life that I'm not out to, and it sucks to be misgendered when I have to visit them and everything. Um, and throughout that process, my twin brother and, um, my sister in law were really, really supportive of me, as well as my partner and my friends, but I'm just thinking about, um, my family, and, um, they got, uh, oh, actually, it's turned around, uh, And they got me this little necklace that says Proud Enby as a present when I went to see them. And [00:54:30] that was a really special, warm, fuzzy, like, from one side of the family feeling that kind of heartbreak to the other side being so accepting. Um, and of course, they have such wonderful chosen family. That was a really positive, warm, fuzzy for me lately. Um, to give the youth MPs a little bit more time to think. Um, Tane, did you have one you wanted to share? Thanks. Um, I'm still thinking about Joel's comment earlier and his Nan. [00:55:00] And, uh, that, that reminds me of, of when I first heard my grandmother call me or introduce me as her grandson for the very first time. Uh, she was. 99 years old yesterday. So, um, yeah, she's, she's on my heart. She's in my mind tonight. And, um, just how good that made me feel, um, when she saw me for me and was Proud to introduce me as her grandson. [00:55:30] I'll never forget that moment. Oh, that's so wonderful, Tang. Thank you for sharing. Um, and youth MPs, if you want to raise your hand, I can go to you first, or I will pick on you like a teacher. Oh, I'll be, there you go. So this one's not traditional friends or old family, but I mean, I, I would consider her my friend now, but when I first met Chloe, the first time that we actually met, we were, [00:56:00] Having a chat and I sort of said like, you know, he, him, I, I, I'm kind of non binary kind of thing, but like, I, I'm not out about that because I've just had a bunch of shit and he, him, you know, a male is what I chose to be. And then she just goes to me, it's like, do you want to be non binary? And I'm like, Yes. It was like, then let's make that happen. Like, you know, and just that explicit support is like, bro, I'm with you. Like I will stand [00:56:30] for you that just knowing that that was actually what gave you the push to just be like, wait, why am I still acting like I'm binary when I know I'm not just because I believe people won't respect me as a non binary person. You know, that really pushed me to be like, fuck it, gonna own myself. So. Yeah, that was cool. Oh, lovely. Love that. Um, yeah. A good shout out to Chloe for being a great friend. [00:57:00] Chloe's awesome. And I'm not saying that as a fanboy, I'm saying that as a She supports me a lot. Totally, yeah, I've, a lot of my, the reason I'm here basically is because of Chloe, because I joined her campaign, so. Yeah, thanks Chloe. And any of the other youth MPs have some warm fuzzies to share, feel free to unmute or just raise your hand. Joel, warm fuzzies. Um, yeah, mine isn't so recent, but, [00:57:30] um, when I first came out to my parents, I wanted them to be involved in, um, choosing a name for me. Uh, and, uh, so I remember sitting down with my, my mum, and, uh, she proposed that I took the name Roderick, which I took as a middle name, uh, which is the name of my uncle who, um, passed away. about, uh, 10 years ago, um, and his, uh, she got his [00:58:00] husband on the phone, um, for me, uh, and I, I talked to him about taking his name and just, um, having a conversation that was so, um, I don't know, uh, respectful and, and open and, um, really about. Um, honoring someone by, you know, taking their name. Oh, that's wonderful. Names are so special and personal to us, and that's really lovely that you went about it as a family unit. That's awesome. [00:58:30] Um, we can move on to the next question unless anyone has any burning warm fuzzies to share. Kate, yes. Um, actually, I just thought of something recently that shows the power of really cool ally shit. And that's, um, my mom is an incredible ally. She's not part of the LGBTQ community at all. And she didn't really know anything about being non binary, um, beforehand, but I started at a new school this year. And in the school system, everyone here will know, right? It says your gender. And [00:59:00] for me, it said female. And I didn't really mind. I didn't want to make a fuss, but no, my mom decided she was going to make a fuss and she emailed every level and chain of command until she could get it changed in the system. And now my gender in the school system says indeterminate because there's no non binary option. So my mom's in the process of going out of her way. To try and get the ministry of education to change the entire school system. So my gender can say non binary [00:59:30] and not indeterminate. And that is one of my favorite stories since I've come out as non binary because a supportive family and supportive friends makes all the difference. So thank you to my mom for that. And that is my one fuzzy story. Oh my gosh, such warm fuzzies, but also like badass fuzzies. Um, go Kate's mum, thank you so much. Uh, let us know how we can get involved, that's so awesome. Um, Bihari Anushka, did you have any warm [01:00:00] fuzzies to share? No worries, if not, it's okay. Um, all good. We've got lots more questions to get through. Oh, hi Elizabeth. Sneaking in across the screens. Beautiful. Um, we have quite a few questions based around schools, um, from teachers, from students. Oh, hello. Sorry, I'm just having some technical issues at the moment. Oh, no worries. Oh, all good. Just let us know, [01:00:30] um, when you're back. Um, I'll read out this one. I'm a transgender teacher in a fairly conservative school. What advice could you offer to make it a safer place for all? There's so much homophobia directed towards staff and students, but it falls on deaf ears when raised with our school leaders. Um, this is one that was a little bit shorter. We've had some longer ones that talk about people's experiences in schools and about how being intersex, being queer, being trans, um, being gay, being bi, being rainbow, isn't really taught. still in sex [01:01:00] education and even just accepted in school and that's a big issue. Um, as someone who has been out of school for almost 10 years, I'm not as familiar with what it's like now, but, um, yeah, I wanted to know if anyone had any advice to offer on how to make schools a safer place for everyone. Feel free to just raise your hand. I actually did think of something to, yes, I'll be. That's it. Honestly, like, [01:01:30] that may be confronting, um, but sometimes you just have to be the one to start shit and just be like, Hey, I'm actually not taking this sitting down, so like, jot that down because You do have a lot of legal protections, to some degree, so it's like, if you're comfortable with it, if you feel like you physically can, start shit. It's how shit changes. Start shit. Love that. Um, I actually did think of another one, which is that, which is really relevant [01:02:00] to the schools, um, today, Inside out CURO and gender gender neutral bathrooms NZ launched a parliamentary petition to fund schools, all schools across so that they can have gender neutral bathrooms. Um, and that's really important so that our non-binary au can feel accepted and represented in schools and accept. And accept it again. Double accepted. Um, in that way. So we'll put a little link in the comments to that petition, but [01:02:30] really awesome. If you check out gender neutral bathrooms and said, and also the awesome work, um, inside out car does and sign that petition. That's one way that you can help make schools a safer place right now. Um, any other ideas about how we can make school safer? For a rainbow photo. Oh, Kate. Yes. Um, if your school has a gender and sexuality club, I know they go under different names at different schools, then supporting those is a great idea because [01:03:00] it gives queer students a safe place to chill and also to organize if you feel like your school needs that. So if you don't have a gender and sexuality club, then starting one of those. is a great idea. Even if it's just two of you or three of you at first, it will grow. Awesome. It will grow like a beautiful butterfly. Um, any of our other youth MPs have ideas? Joel? [01:03:30] Yes. Um, I would just say, um, I'll, I'll give this idea even though, um, you know, bring this up. Uh, with people who aren't very receptive to these ideas, it might just fall on deaf ears, but there is study after study after study after study that says that, um, having an accepting environment for queer people leads to better outcomes for their mental health. It leads to lower rates of suicide, or it leads to lower rates of mental health, uh, challenges [01:04:00] that they're facing. Um, and there's just so many of these studies that exist that prove the same thing over and over and over again. Um, that you can provide to people. Um, and once again, I know that, uh, oftentimes it falls on deaf ears. People don't care. But, um, you know, that does exist. That evidence does exist. Yeah. That's such a great point. Thank you so much, Joel. Um, Tane, I was wondering if you had any points to share [01:04:30] as a professional rainbow. Professional rainbow. Um, thank you. Uh, just a couple of quick comments for me first. Thanks for the question. I, I think it was from a trans teacher in a conservative school. If I got that right. Um, Just aroha nui to you. Thanks for, um, being with us tonight for asking this question. I don't think there are any easy answers. [01:05:00] If there are, you would have thought of them. Um, one thing I would say is that, you know, as, as queer rainbow takatāpui people, we tend to be pretty good at finding each other. And I hope that if not in your school, you can find, uh, and connect with other colleagues that can help you in this situation. This isn't a fix it, but there are, you know, small things that we can do to ourselves to affirm ourselves, whether that's, you know, whether, uh, wearing a [01:05:30] special necklace or a bracelet or something that reminds us of who we are, even when we're in environments that aren't accepting, uh, that may or may not work for you, but just something else to think about. And the last thing I just wanted to mention is if you haven't already, it could be worth getting in touch with the. PPTA, the Post Primary Teachers Association, um, and getting some support from those folks. They've got, um, they've got documents and [01:06:00] resources and things that can support, um, I recall some of them reference, for example, the Health and Safety at Work Act, and you can use some of those provisions in our existing legislation to Um, try and advocate for safer, uh, schools and safer environments for everyone, staff, students, um, other, uh, other members of the school alike. Um, I would like to speak to this because this is a battle that [01:06:30] I've faced myself. Um, going into year nine, into college, um, I went to this very toxic school that had, like, noticeably toxic masculinity. Um, There were many times that men, uh, boys and girls were separated, and in those times I felt that my divine femininity was stripped away from me, and I was, and there was this sense [01:07:00] of loss. There was no belonging. For myself to be there in those, um, groups where we were separated and I could not understand that. And you know what, the person who was teaching us was my damn cousin, you know, the baddest ones from your family. I tell you, God, but for me, I, I had to call [01:07:30] upon everybody who were feeling the same emotions as me. I had to. Do a big meeting. Go talk to all the girls and tell them, well, what are, what are the problems? What, what is happening in your reality in this ura? You know, talk to your kids first. They will know what you, what you need to do. Then after that, we had to make a meeting with the. [01:08:00] teachers with the principal go through all of us, all these rarurarus, till we get to a point where not necessarily that it was fully resolved, but where we could say we did something. So I'll just tell you, talk to your, talk to your students, they know the game. Tēnā rā koutou.[01:08:30] Thank you so much. Um, Anushka, did you have any, uh, ideas to share about how we can make school safer? Um, I just wanted to, you know, reiterate what Albie and uh, Kate said about like, just start shit if you want to start shit and just, you know, um, if there's no club at your school that, uh, embraces all these sexualities and, um, gender identities, [01:09:00] just start one, you know, there's like what Albie said, there are laws to protect you. If your school starts anything with you, just, you know. Fight back, like, the government, I mean, the Ministry of Education should be able to help you, and if they don't, just keep, keep going, just keep starting shit, there's so many people behind you, like, whole rainbow community would be behind you. But yeah, that's all I wanted to reiterate. Aw, thank [01:09:30] you so much, Anushka. Um, welcome back, Elizabeth! Kia ora. Um, hope reading in the house went well. And I'm wondering if you had anything you wanted to add about how to make schools safer. No worries, we can keep going. No, no, I'm enjoying listening to our young people kōrero. Oh, awesome. Wonderful. Um, we'll move. To the next question. Um, this one is from Bonnie. Kia ora. My name is Bonnie. I use she, her pronouns. I'm a bisexual woman. [01:10:00] How do you go about explaining queer struggles to parents? My dad really struggles with understanding that LGBTQIA plus people are discriminated against. And I find it difficult to discuss this with him and others who are sure. There are no issues anymore. Um, I was just wondering about some strategies for this. Thank you so much for this corridor today. Um, Hey Bonnie, I'm in such a similar position, so I could definitely use some advice on this myself. I, yeah, I've only just come out as agender to my parents and they definitely don't [01:10:30] get it. Um, yeah, feel free to raise hands if you have ideas about. How you've gone about talking to your parents or other parents or parents in general. It's a hard one, right? Yeah, um, Kate, did you have any ideas? Ooh, um, I think that is a hard one. I might need another moment to think about that. [01:11:00] No worries at all. Um, yeah, well, feel free to chime on in. Um, I can speak a little about what I've done, which is, uh, I scheduled a call with my parents and I like basically wrote a script and wrote everything that I was going to say, um, about myself and about. You know, what kind of language that I wouldn't accept and, um, about my expectations and about what makes me feel respected and loved. Um, and that's something I've come back to when my parents have been, [01:11:30] uh, willfully ignorant, I would say, about my queerness over the years is, I just focus on the fact that this is what makes me happy. This is me living my happiest, most authentic life. And, um, you know, it's like, you want me to be happy, right? As a parent. And, um, it's just getting them to kind of listen and, and open their minds a little bit, even if they're this, uh, similar kind of parents that I have were. They are used to being the ones [01:12:00] that tell the kids what to think or teach them, like, this is something that is totally unfamiliar to them. Um, and I guess I turned out quite different from how they expected. I think that's another thing as well, but focusing on how it's what makes you happy. Um, and even if, you know, you're struggling in your identity, it's who you are and everybody deserves to be loved and respected and accepted for who they are. Um. Any other [01:12:30] ideas about how we could explain queer struggles to parents? Anushka? I just, sorry, I just, um, wanted to note that maybe, like, uh, showing them more media and more, uh, Showing them more, yeah, media around the acceptance of LGBTQ plus people, uh, around them will make them more accepting of the idea and [01:13:00] more, uh, yeah, if you're more vocal, I think if you're, if you have friends who can be vocal or other family members who can be vocal about these things, then, you know, bring them along or just, uh, yeah, show them that it's like, it's okay. Now it's, it's accepting. And yeah, that's absolutely such a good point for sure. Yeah. I, it made me remember that that was one of the things that I did [01:13:30] in my email. I was like, watch, um, oh my gosh, I'm going to get disclosure on Netflix. You can learn about trans people, watch disclosure. Um, and I linked them to like parent support groups. There's parent support groups that exist. Um, Rainbow Youth runs a lot of them, um, Gender Minorities Aotearoa has some great resources as well, um, we're really lucky in Aotearoa New Zealand to have so many awesome community organisations, um, that fight for our beautiful rainbow fauna and take care of it. Um, [01:14:00] any other ideas on how we can explain queer struggles to parents? Oh, Joel, yes. Um, yeah, I, I think I was just gonna say, um, I think media is a really good way of doing that. Um, but, uh, I think, unfortunately, A lot of queer people, um, uh, either have personal experience or know people who have had, um, traumatic experiences because of their queerness, um, and I think [01:14:30] being able to, um, if you can, talk about those things to parents, parents especially, because I think, um, uh, especially if it's a personal experience, um, it really resonates, um, with people who are close to you, um, if there are things going on that are really, um, terrible, getting called slurs, threats of violence, things like that, that unfortunately are still quite common, um, for queer people. Um, just existing. Uh, I think sharing those [01:15:00] things that they happen and that they're real, um, is really impactful for people. Yeah. Thank you, Joel. Listening is so important. Um, we're close to running out of time, so it's time for us to do a little closing round. Um, yes. And What we can do is just go around and share, um, like a person or, um, a piece of media or anything that [01:15:30] you get inspiration from. So it can just be one thing so that we go through quickly. Um, what I'm going to say is my wonderful partner, I get a lot of inspiration for living my best queer life from them, um, and living our best life together. Uh, I'll pass to Tame and then you can pass to somebody else after that. Kia ora. Um, I get a lot of inspiration from and, um, yeah, I draw a lot of inspiration from, uh, some of the [01:16:00] new support spaces and organizations that have popped up in these really intersectional spaces. I'm thinking of groups like Rainbow Path for our rainbow refugees and asylum seekers, um, Indian origin pride who had their launch at parliament last week, Adhika Aotearoa, um, Tiwhanawhana Trust, Same Same But Black, um, and many other groups which, um, didn't even exist. Five years ago when I started in my role, let alone longer, and our communities have always been doing this work, [01:16:30] but to see, uh, support come together like that, um, in such an intersectional way is something that, um, gives me a lot of, uh, hope and inspiration and joy. Um, I will pass to Anushka. Uh, Kyoto, uh, I think, uh, what, uh, sorry, could you repeat? Uh, the question again, just one more time. Oh, like what, where you draw [01:17:00] inspiration or what inspires you? So it could be a person, it could be a piece of media, it could be an organization. Um, yeah, I think, sorry, thank you. Uh, I think the people who inspire me the most are just friends around me who are also either strong allies or just a part of the LGBTQ plus community. They're always. They're also the ones who are very vocal and very, um, put it like, very [01:17:30] out there about these kinds of, uh, like, internalized homophobia. Like, a lot of issues that a lot of LGBTQ plus people face, like, personally, a lot of them talk about internalized homophobia, internalized transphobia, um, just those sorts of things. I think them being able to talk about that helps me. Um, also accept myself more[01:18:00] awesome. We'll pass to Joel and, um, then you can pass to somebody else. Um, yeah, I think, um, the things, uh, something that inspires me is, um, just, um, just art in general, I think, um, just unrelated to, to queerness or anything, but, um, I'm, I'm a media and politics major. So, um, I really love you. Just, um, sitting [01:18:30] down and, and engaging with, you know, a piece of art and being able to see, uh, someone put passion and, uh, an effort into something and create something, uh, beautiful out of it. Awesome. We'll go to Kate. Oh, I think my normal answer to this question would be that I get a lot of inspiration from spaces like this, where I get to hear from other queer young people and be [01:19:00] really inspired by what they have to say. But also recently I've been reading a lot of books by queer authors and I found that to be a huge source of inspiration. Um, I recommend Girl, Woman, Other, and that also helps. My grandmother understood me more accepting of my identity as a non binary person. So I think it was Bonnie who asked the question about how to, uh, get your parents around. I recommend giving them Go Woman Other to read and I'll pass on to Albie.[01:19:30] I think that this is going to sound very cliche, but probably my friends. You know, and, and network friends, old friends, new friends, you know, making all the connections that I've got within the greens now is like really cool because I'm seeing people like Chloe, like Rosemary, like we've got a lot of other people I've met, like Zoe, there's, um, like all these people who [01:20:00] just inspire me to be my best, I don't even, it's not even just the queerness, you know, it's like, you know, All of them are inspiring me to continue with my work and know that I can make a difference and that I'm not doing this alone, you know, I'm not sitting here fighting an uphill battle by myself because I'm seeing other people and what they're fighting and we're fighting some of the same things, some of the different things. So I know that if I'm not doing something, somebody's doing it. And yeah, [01:20:30] just having a community is really inspiring to me. For myself, it's seeing the living representation of resilience in my Māori communities. Um, on the hapū level, with my uncle being the kaikaranga at the marae. At the iwi level, seeing transgender women stand on the [01:21:00] Matatini stage, the national stage for kapa haka here in New Zealand, and top groups performing, uh, our Our hearts, our, the cult, our culture to the world. Those are the people who bring me inspiration. Seeing, um, both sides of myself as a gay man and a Māori, um, those are the people who bring me inspiration. And [01:21:30] also, you know, my mum, you know, can't forget about my mum. Love her. She, you know, she's the one who always tells me, oh, you're different. You know, be different. That will get you somewhere in life. That will make you succeed. Your mātauranga in Māori, your, you know, just being gay, you know, that is, she always loved. [01:22:00] Me for being different. So she brings me inspiration. Kia ora koutou. Oh, kia ora koutou. Wow, this has been amazing. I don't know if you've all been following all the comments in the chat, but all of our youth MPs, uh, I hope that you're feeling all the love. All of the respect, all of the inspiration that you have provided to a lot of our whānau tonight. We've had heaps of people on this call, but lots more following on Facebook. [01:22:30] And, uh, you know what? Our MPs have chosen pretty amazing people to represent us in this house. I'm very, very proud of all of you. Thank you so much for being here, all of you who've come to watch. Please put your comments in the chat so that our young ones can see how much you've appreciated them. Uh, this has been recorded. It'll be available for people to watch later. Uh, and yeah, this has been an [01:23:00] amazing way to finish the day when we started at raising the flags as the sun came up. So it's Idahobot Day, a day to acknowledge. The diversity of our sexualities, our genders, and our sex characteristics, but all the other parts of ourselves, ourselves as artists, as scholars, as people who play sports, all the different ways that we express ourselves in this work, the way that our mauri, our life force, uh, is given, [01:23:30] given freedom. Being valued, being acknowledged, and just part of everything you want to be part of. So thank you so much. And I'm going to close, I like to close with a whakatauki, and it's because it's a simple one, but it is my favorite. Apart from mahi which I heard Jane saying, which is like, do the work. But it's that. We have these individual [01:24:00] days as a point to stop and remember that every single day these issues are facing us. Every day, this, this is our life. And so my whakatauki is mā pāngo, mā whero, kā otiai te mahi, with the red and the black. With your expertise, your mātauranga, your knowledge, your life, everything you bring to this work, we bring that together. And together, we will get the work done. [01:24:30] So, nō reira, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, kia ora hui hui mai tātou katoa.

IRN: 3655
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1107367
TITLE: Joan Bellingham
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VOICES: Joan Bellingham
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; Abuse in Care - Royal Commission of Inquiry; Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC); Aotearoa New Zealand; Blenheim; British Hotel; Burwood Hospital; Cashmere; Cashmere High School; Charles Allan Aberhart; Christchurch; Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM); Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT); Gresham Hotel; IDEA Services (IHC); Joan Bellingham; Juliet Hulme; Lyttelton; Margaret Moon; Nelson; Pauline Parker; The Princess Margaret Hospital; abuse; attempted suicide; aversion therapy; compensation; concentration camp; discrimination; gay; health care; health system; homosexual law reform; inpatient; institutionalisation; lesbian; medications; memory loss; mental health; mental illness; nurse; nursing; personality disorder; psychiatric hospital; psychiatric treatment; psychiatrist; punishment; religion; resilience; saltwater enema; scar; schizophrenia; sexual assault; sexuality; societal attitudes; suicidal; suicide; transgender
DATE: 13 October 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Christchurch, Christchurch, Canterbury
CONTEXT: Joan describes her experiences as a trainee nurse at Burwood Hospital, and then as a patient at Princess Margaret Hospital (periodically from 1970 to 1982). At Princess Margaret, Joan was subjected to trial medications and hundreds of doses of ECT shock treatment - all in the hope of curing her homosexuality. In 2021 Joan testified before the Abuse in Care - Royal Commission of Inquiry. Heartfelt thanks to Joan for allowing her story to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: February 2024
TEXT: It's important to tell my story because I never ever want it repeated again what happened to me. And I think it's also important for people to know just what hard times we went through in the 70s. Shall we start at the beginning? Well, I [00:00:30] After I left Kashmir High School, I pursued my nursing career. Nursing in our family, my sister was a nurse, my mother was a nurse, and grandmother and my nieces, nieces are all nurses. And I started my career at Burwood Hospital. And I was there a year and a half, and doing well. Uh, and I [00:01:00] never, but I never ever hid my sexuality. And through that, the consequences were I was picked on by the staff and blamed for taking drugs off a trolley. And so I became a little bitch. Oh, I don't know, what's the word? Naughty, I suppose. And we were meant to be in by 10 o'clock and I'd come in at 10 30 and stuff like that. And in [00:01:30] the end, uh, I got told that I had a problem and I needed to go and see a doctor at the hospital. So one of the tutors drove me to the hospital and I was seeing psychiatrist there and was admitted that day. Um. And that was the end of my nursing career. Uh, started off, I was told I had a personality disorder. And then I was told I had [00:02:00] schizophrenia. And I was given copious amounts of drugs. Absolutely, you know, unheard of amounts of drugs. I was like a walking zombie. And shock treatment once, sometimes twice a day. For years and years and years. And it took away my memory of surfing, my sister's wedding. It just wiped out [00:02:30] my best friends. And I've got no memory of anything like that. It took it away. But the one thing they didn't take away was my sexuality. I'm still me. I'm still Joan. I'm still gay. Yeah. There is so much in what you've, um, talked about just in the last minute or two and I'm wondering, do you mind if we just, um, go back slowly through some of that material? Sure. So, um, you were saying that you [00:03:00] grew up in Kashmir, so what kind of, um, years are we talking in Christchurch? What is this like, the 50s and 60s? I've been, yes, I've been in Christchurch all my life. I'd go to Sydney, you know, for small periods of time, go to Wellington for small periods of time, but I'd end up coming back to Christchurch, yes. Can you describe what Christchurch was like in the [00:03:30] 50s and 60s? Um, it was very, uh, closed and, uh, I, my, a very good friend of mine next door, he was different and all our neighbours were told to keep away from him because something was strange about him, it turned out Brian turned into Beverly and was a very good friend of mine. And [00:04:00] so You know, he had a terribly hard time in the 60s. I mean, it was just shocking. You know, I've had a very supporting mother, but in the 50s and 60s, I don't have much memory. Um, I had a pretty good upbringing myself. I was brought up in a religious family, and sexuality wasn't talked about, you know. And, and when people talked in the 60s about, um, [00:04:30] somebody's sexuality, I mean, did they even use language that described it or it was just something other, something that just wasn't talked about? It just wasn't talked about, yeah, yep. It just, yes, I mean, we had no understanding of anything like that in the 60s, in the 70s, you know, because we used to go to gay dances and all that sort of stuff. It was more open, but, um, [00:05:00] it was still not publicised or anything, no one knew anything about dances or, you know. Gay bars or anything like that because it wasn't talked about still in the early 70s. We just, it was kept very underground. Yes. So can you recall the first time you became aware of your own sexuality? Probably at high school. Yeah. Or when all my friends were, you know, wanting to meet boys and going out [00:05:30] with boys and I didn't want to. Yeah. And can you describe what that realisation was like for you? Um Well, it's strange because it wasn't that scary because I'm a person, I don't hide anything. And even though I knew that it was going to be hard for me, I just carried on with life. And that's what got me into [00:06:00] trouble, that's why I ended up in hospital. Because I didn't hide anything. I certainly wasn't going to get married. And have children, because I knew that it was going to cause pain for myself, whoever I married, and you know, so I didn't go down that track. I just, I carried on being me, and that's what got me into trouble, really. I mean, if I'd, my majority of my friends in that high hid it, or got married, or because, you know, they didn't want people to [00:06:30] know, um, which also got themselves into trouble. But I just carried on being me, and it was a heartache for my parents because I used to, like the British Hotel in Lyttelton was well known for gay people. And um, at that stage I was very young and um, there was a police raid and they asked my age and then rang my parents and told me, come and get me, I was at the Gay bar in Lyttelton, [00:07:00] you know. So that's when my parents first realisation that I was gay. Although they didn't use the term gay. Yeah. At what age would that have been? Um, I was probably 17. Yeah. I just, you know, I wanted, I was probably, uh, but I just, I wanted to go out, I wanted to have fun, um, I knew I was different to my friends and I knew things were going on [00:07:30] and I just thought, you know, I want to go for it, so yeah. So can you describe that, that, that, that part? Yeah, it was, uh, it was really exciting. At that stage, you know, we used to get, uh, a lot of my friends apparently were gay men and there used to be a lot of boats coming and they would, we could get free beer on the boats. Um, it was good music. Um, [00:08:00] there was, um, I can remember there was a gay guy. playing the piano all the time. I can't remember his name now. And it was just really known as a, quite a hip bar at the time for gay people. But, but everyone else used to think, oh, the British, oh, wouldn't go there, you know. It was, hmm. So, how did you become aware of it? Well I also, I can remember, one thing I can [00:08:30] remember, and I must have been at the end of going to High school. I can't really remember anything about high school, but I can remember one time Leaving at lunchtime going to a bar in town Called the Gresham, which was also a bit of a gay bar and people said, oh you should go to the British It's you know, it's it's absolutely buzzing at night, you know with gay people. So that's when I started finding out about the [00:09:00] British Yeah. Much to my parents horror. And you, yeah, because you were saying that your parents didn't actually use the word, say, gay. Oh no. So what, like, how did they, how did they phrase things? Well they didn't. Well they didn't, and as soon as, as I got put into hospital they thought, Oh, so we can understand now, Joan's sick and she's not well, that's why she's, yeah. And so they, whatever the doctor said [00:09:30] to them was. Right. So they thought, you know, oh, Joan's behavior's like this because she's not a well girl. Yeah. And this is at a time when, uh, homosexuality was seen as a mental disorder? Absolutely. Absolutely, yeah. Christchurch is really fascinating in terms of, um, queer history because there were things like the Parker Hume Murder in [00:10:00] 1954, there was the Charles Ahart, uh, killing in 1964. But thinking about the Parker Hume murder, both, I think the prosecution and the defense, uh, brought up the lesbianism of, of the two girls. Were, were you aware of, you know, either the or the Parker Hume cases? Well, we were led to believe with the Parker Hume cases that they weren't gay. You know, and, and [00:10:30] didn't think any more of that. Um, the other, the other one that you mentioned, yes, I, I was aware that, of what was going on and just, you know, how biased, especially in Christchurch people were. And it was quite dangerous, I mean, I, I used to, for example, um, when people knew around here that I was gay, I used to have on my fence people with spray paint, lesbian, and, [00:11:00] and stuff like that, yeah. So it was, in that sort of instance, you kept pretty quiet in Christchurch, because the people were quite, uh, I don't know what's the word to use. Um. So the spray paint, was that happening more in the kind of 1980s, like around law reform? Yes, yes it was. It was. There was a lot of hate too, you know, a terrible lot of [00:11:30] hate. Shocking. So jumping back to the, it was the 70s wasn't it when you were going, or the kind of late 60s when you were going to the various pubs like the British? Uh, it would be the 70s, early 70s, yeah. How did the police treat you? I can't remember, I'm sorry, yeah. I think, you know, they just thought that as a young girl it shouldn't, shouldn't be [00:12:00] a Yeah, because of course at the time it was 21, was the age, yeah, and I would have only been 17, so, it was, in those days it was pretty unheard of. So did you go straight from high school into nursing? Yes I did, yes, yep. And why nursing? Um, I just was [00:12:30] I felt sort of secure and I thought that it was, you know, that was my calling at the time. I mean, there was other jobs I wanted to do, like I loved watching my dad fix the car and I would have loved to have had a job with mechanics or something like that, but it was unheard of. And I actually wanted to be a taxi driver and my mother thought that that was absolutely absurd for a woman to be a taxi driver. And um, also I tried to be an [00:13:00] orderly at PMH where they'd put me in because I mean, I knew the hospital so well and that, and that was unheard of, there was no woman orderlies in those days, so I mean it was pretty restricted what we, you know, were able to do. Once I got in, I still loved my nursing and apparently, you know, I would have done very well with my nursing but, you know, I just, it wasn't carried on. And we should say that, um, PMH [00:13:30] stands for? Princess Margaret Hospital, yeah. So can you remember any, um, other rainbow people in nursing at that time? One, yes, yes, one. One that I can remember, apparently, um, something that happened when I was nursing, um, and we were all sitting out on the balcony, and my very good friend, he [00:14:00] was a male nurse, now I can't remember whether he was gay or not, I have a feeling he was. He fell backward off his chair and fell onto the ground floor and was killed, but I've got absolutely no memory, it's, my memory's gone as far as that. So I've got a feeling that he was gay too. Yeah. And, and was it accidental? His death? Yes, absolutely. He just fell backwards apparently. And, yeah. So can you describe [00:14:30] how, how I, I guess how overt you were in terms of your sexuality, um, as you were going through the, the nursing training? I mean, was it, was it a big thing for you? It was important. It was important that. I felt that, you know, I didn't want people to think I was straight. Um, and I had to conform to doing things that all my other friends did. So I stood my grounds and, [00:15:00] you know, it just, it wasn't accepted. It was definitely not accepted in that profession. How does it manifest itself when you're not conforming, when you're not wanting to appear to be straight? I guess it, it looks like I, to, to them, it would've looked like I was just, um, a non-conformist and that, that I didn't want to obey any rules, you know, because Sure. [00:15:30] I, I guess that I probably, when I think about it now, I was doing things because they told me not to do them because. They wouldn't accept who I was, so, you know, it appeared that I was really being a non conformist and, and, that wasn't, in those days, I mean, nursing was like being in the army. You know, you had to be in by a certain time. Um, you know, certain clothes you had to wear, even in mufti, you [00:16:00] know, um, Oh, it was all, you know, rules, rules, rules, rules, rules. And, uh, Yeah, it got me into trouble, so that was the end, yeah, for me, for my nursing, yeah. My sister, she was very successful in her nursing and, you know, in the end she, uh, she was right up there and she owned nursing homes and all sorts of things, [00:16:30] yeah. So I think my parents probably thought that You know, my sister had done so well, and Joan, because of her illness, you know, didn't get anywhere. Do you think you were targeted because of your lesbianism? Uh, 100%. Yeah. And was that from both the kind of the staff and the fellow [00:17:00] students or? Oh not from the students as far as I can remember. I mean I was pretty well liked. You know, I got on well with everyone and that. It was just the staff, yeah. So what would they do? Well, from what I can remember, and, and a lot of it's been cut out, but as I said, I, there's no way I would have stolen drugs off the drug trolley, I would, that's just not me, and I was blamed for that, and [00:17:30] it affected me quite a bit, I was quite upset, um, I, exam papers, there was one tutor and she put on the bottom, if you think you're going to be a nurse, that's a laugh, In the end I burnt those papers. I wish I'd held on to them now. But yeah, it was comments like that apparently. And I'm a pretty, at the time, a fairly sensitive person too. So it was sort of a build up I was getting. Picked on, I suppose. [00:18:00] And, uh, you know, and then it was the being driven to the hospital, being told that I needed to see a doctor. So, yeah. One and a half years I was nursing. It was a three year course at the time. I did one and a half years. Can you recall what happened on that particular day when they said, actually you need to go to the hospital now? I can just vaguely. Thinking this is ridiculous. This is really [00:18:30] ridiculous. Um, you know, I can't wait to get well. Get back with my mates and we'll have a few drinks, blah, blah, blah. Never for a minute thinking, you know, I'll be kept in hospital that night. Yeah, and that was the complete end of me going back to Burwood Hospital. I can't even remember what happened about my clothes, all my belongings, the nurse's home, I can't remember. I never saw my friends again. [00:19:00] I didn't know that my memory would be taken away from me. But I certainly didn't think that was the last time I'd see my friends or it'd be the end of my nursing career, yeah. What age were you at this point? About eighteen and a half, I think, yeah, yeah. To me that is just so unimaginable to be at, to be taken out of, out of where you are and just transported [00:19:30] into another environment. I know. I know. I actually, um, there was this Margaret Moon who was a, uh, psychologist there at the PMH and she was an amazing woman and she's just recently passed away. And she, one of the reasons she left was she couldn't stand to see what was happening to me. Um. And we kept in [00:20:00] touch, what was I, I've just lost my train of thought, um. Oh, and she said, you went into hospital, a bright, young girl, standing up straight, looking, you know, having great complexion, and she said, and she said, six months later I saw you and you were like a pale, walking zombie who didn't recognize anybody. She said, you went into hospital a well person, and you were getting sicker and sicker and sicker. Yeah. And she couldn't do [00:20:30] anything about it. Yeah, it was. Yeah. When you hear that, I mean, how does that make you feel? Well, it's strange. I was just telling my partner, Margaret, it didn't, for a long time, it hadn't really affected me. But as I'm getting older, it's starting to make me just realise this, this, The horrificness of it all, you know, it's actually now, it's [00:21:00] hitting me harder now in my 70s than it did in my 50s and 40s. Probably because I had, uh, you know, I mean, I, I refused to let it rule my life, what had happened to me and, um, I kept, but now that I've got time to sit and, you know, I'm not so busy in that, and reflect on it, yeah, it hits me harder now. And that's, this Royal Commission, it's really [00:21:30] important to me that I get my word out there. But I also, you know, I very strongly say this now. I think I should be compensated for what happened to me. And I'm sorry if that sounds callous, but I'm at the stage in my life, I really and truly think there should be some sort of compensation for what's happened to me. Uh, and I was too, too ashamed to say that before because I don't know why. I was just [00:22:00] ashamed to say it, but now I'm at the point in my life and I realize just how horrific it all was. Yes, there should be some compensation. Yeah. You've mentioned a couple of times in terms of the, um, the loss of memory. Have you found over the years that memories have come back or partial memories have come back? Nah. Well, it's quite strange because we went with our neighbours to an Italian restaurant the other [00:22:30] night. It's a well known restaurant. And, uh, we sat down, and this woman came, the owner of the place came rushing over to me, and her hands, her arms, and, Joan! And I hadn't had a clue who she was, and apparently we were very, very good friends at Kashmir High. And, uh, she told me a few things that we did, and it brought back a few memories, yeah. So, sometimes if I'm [00:23:00] reminded of something, I can I've had a lot of instances. I had a friend, Beverly, who was a transsexual, and she bought a gay guy that I used to flat with, and I couldn't think who he was, I had no idea, and as soon as he came to the door and I saw his face, there was something there I could remember. And he, he told us of all the things that we did [00:23:30] together, and it was, it sounded fabulous, you know, really, really nice person. He's in Sydney now. Yeah. So those first moments, um, at Princess Margaret, can you, I mean, can you recall that, or just the feeling of, I mean, what that felt like? Well, at first, You know, I lost all confidence in [00:24:00] myself. And I thought, oh my god, I must be really sick. And I saw these people around me, like there was a woman who was, she'd been in the concentration camp and she was a Jew. She kept hitting her head on the wall. And there was another woman who threw the TVs. And I thought, What am I doing here? You know, these people, these poor people are very sick. But then I started [00:24:30] to get sicker myself because of all the medication and the shock treatment. And the only place I felt secure in the end was the hospital. You know, I felt totally, they made me feel totally insecure when I wasn't in the hospital. Yeah, it went from feeling frightened to feeling like I, I was totally, what's the word, um, Oh, there's a word for it when you need to be in [00:25:00] hospital. Like when you're institutionalised? Institutionalised, yeah, yeah, yep. And, yeah, apparently at one stage, I can remember disliking myself so much that I was begging for the shock treatment and they'd give it to me, you know. And then another time I can remember, they called my parents in and they said that we've got some news that Joan is a schizophrenic and they [00:25:30] didn't know what that meant and they said it's like her brain's crumbling. And, yeah. She won't get better and, you know, she's going to slowly deteriorate and then I can remember all my family members having a prayer meeting and and you know gathering around and holding each other and praying for me and all this thinking that you know, I was going to end up being a Vegetable or whatever. And there were no, you know, I mean, they were trying all these trial [00:26:00] drugs out on me. I mean, I've got a list of the drugs I was on. And you wouldn't believe it. I mean, it was just shocking. Absolutely shocking. So that initial time when you were brought to the hospital, I mean, what did the doctors say? Can, can you recall like, I mean, how did they, uh, were you there for assessment or what, what was the kind of reason? Yes, I, I can remember the doctor that [00:26:30] assessed me and, uh, all they seemed to focus on was how often I had sex, how did I do it, yeah, what was it like, and I kept getting all the time questions about, you know, sex, as if sex was the, Bug bear of it all. And, and it frightened me in the, when I was having shock treatment, this doctor was quite creepy. And, and I felt frightened when I knew that, you [00:27:00] know, after I'd go out to it, that I didn't know what was happening to me. And I was, I think they were, some of them are quite perverse in their, just in their questioning and that, and, yeah. Were they seeing, um, lesbianism as a, as a kind of symptom for a kind of a mental disorder? Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And how did you see [00:27:30] it? Well, as I said, I, I, I I didn't think I was sick, but after being in there, you know, possibly six months, I thought I was very sick. I thought I was, I hated myself. I, I tried to take my life just about every day. I hated myself so much and I never succeeded. So I sort of gathered that I didn't really want to die, but I had absolutely hated, [00:28:00] dislike. I couldn't look in the mirror myself. I, I just It took me a long time to learn to like myself again, yeah, yeah. As this was going on, how did your family react? Well, it's really strange because, you know, I had the most, I had an absolutely wonderful family. My father was an absolutely amazing man. [00:28:30] But they were, you know, they saw me getting sicker and the doctors kept telling them I had this severe illness and they thought that I was in the right place. Except they did question, like one time they were going to Fiji and I was meant to be going with them. But I, they wouldn't let me out of hospital because I had double pneumonia. I was so filled up with drugs I couldn't walk and I'd been lying on the bed for so long. [00:29:00] That I got double pneumonia, and, and mum said, but this, you know, she started to question What, why is all these things happening to this healthy young girl? But, but of course the doctors still talked them into thinking, you know, well, this is, this is how it is, so Joan, so yeah. From your perspective of what the doctors and nurses were thinking, I mean, I'm trying to understand whether I mean, did they think they were [00:29:30] helping you? Or was this more a Do you feel it was more a sinister thing that they were actually trying to cure you of your homosexuality? I mean, what do you think was going through their heads? I think that they thought they were trying to help me but also I think there was an underlying sinister, you know, Something was wrong somewhere because I can remember. I [00:30:00] was well enough. Mum and dad were going to Nelson, and they said I could come and I was on such heavy drugs. I was in the car and I was starting to hallucinate, so they stopped off at Blenheim to see this doctor or a and e or something, and they took a blood test and they nearly went through the roof. They said, what the hell? What? You know, change this. Blood, everything's so high, you know, [00:30:30] and they said Joan needs to go to, there was a hospital in Nelson, a psychiatric hospital, in there, and get her blood levels, you know, all the drugs dropped. And so I was put in this hospital, and then I was surrounded with people, they were all mostly Down Syndrome people, and I was put in this hospital. And they didn't want to send me back to Christchurch, because [00:31:00] they thought that all the shock treatment that was going, so they were trying to get me off or lower all my drug level. But because I was so dependent on everything, they, in the end, they kept giving me all the drugs again. And in the end, they gave me some shock treatment at this hospital at Nelson. And all I can remember is being sent back by ambulance, so, uh, I should. to Princess Margaret Hospital. [00:31:30] So I went from one hospital to another. So, it looked like it was gonna be, they were gonna, you know, help me get off all these drugs that Princess Margaret were putting me on, but in the end they just sent me back to Princess Margaret. So, I don't have much memory of it, but I have a, I was thinking, you know, they were sort of looking at me as I was definitely IHC. When I was out of hospital, they'd put me in this. What was it? It was like a big [00:32:00] factory and they were all mainly Down Syndrome people. And, and we had to, I think it was, put envelopes, TV guides into envelopes or something like that. And I was thinking, why? Why am I, you know, what's, what's happening to me? All of a sudden I was being from a teenage person into a, you know, really handicapped person. And I was, uh, and I just, I just kept trying to kill [00:32:30] myself. I couldn't stand it. I just thought, you know, what, what, what the hell am I doing on this earth, this planet? You know, I'm no good to anybody. I can't do it, and they're just making me feel terrible, so it was shocking. And then, I don't know if I'm skipping to this, but I met my partner who was Asian, and I decided, hey, this is ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous. So I got [00:33:00] myself away from the hospital. They never Ever followed me up, I went cold turkey for a year and a half. I had hot sweats every night, nightmares, shaking, shivering. I did it on my own for a year and a half. Went off all the drugs, including sleeping pills and all that. And, uh, that's how I got, that's how I got myself away from the hospital. Yeah. So, [00:33:30] in hospital, in the 70s, uh, Do you think it was the drugs and the shock treatment, it was a bit of a self perpetuating cycle so that actually, um, you know, you were, um, attempting suicide and that just because of the results of all the effects of those different medications? Absolutely. And I, I just, I felt that I wasn't a good person and I certainly weren't. Person that my parents could be proud of. Even though my [00:34:00] father, you know, he always said he was proud of me, but I just felt that, you know, I wasn't someone they could be look up to. Yeah. Can you describe what, uh, an average day was like at, uh, when you, when you were at Princess? My group? Sure. Um. As an inpatient, um, well, the room had six beds, um, [00:34:30] and in the mornings they'd come round with a drug trolley. It would all be administered drugs, um, then they'd come round with a trolley with breakfast. There was no, we didn't have any groups where there was talking or anything like that. You were just treated like, uh, you know, you lay in your bed and, [00:35:00] um, We had walks around the hospital. We'd all walk in groups around the hospital. If you, you know, like for me sometimes I'd try and run away to get away from hospital and they'd, I'd come back and they'd give me a, what's called a salt warm water enema. You know, for running away and it was very, very painful and I did that a few ti I got that a [00:35:30] few times, it was sort of a punishment thing. And one time I tried to jump into the river, I just, I'd had enough and someone got me out, I can't remember. And I got, I remember having this, it was in a warm salt water in there where it was Almost hot, so watering them, that was horrific, that was shocking. And then I was put, I started to get, after that, go downhill and I got put into a single room. And they took [00:36:00] away. The bowel, uh, I just, it was just a room with nothing in it. And if I wanted to go to the toilet, I had to yell out and I didn't have the strength to yell out 'cause I was so weak from all the drugs I was on. And, uh, so consequently, I can remember one time trying to get out into the corridor saying what? And I didn't make it. And I got severely punished for that. Really, and I got shot [00:36:30] treatment, I think I got it twice that day. And I can remember that's when they burnt my scalp. And then the second, when I had it in the afternoon, they put the electrodes onto the burns again. So I got permanent scarring. Yeah, so, um, and then I would come round, you know, on a drug trolley again, it would be a drug trolley, which seemed to be coming round all the time. [00:37:00] And then I can vaguely remember there was drug addicts coming in, and they were getting their methadone in little cups, and sometimes they'd be given shock treatment. And this is jumping the gun a bit. I was told I was a schizophrenic, an alcoholic, and a drug addict. Well, I just was a social drunker, I weren't a schizophrenic. And I never ever took IV [00:37:30] drugs. And anyway, consequently, many years later, I got Hepatitis C. And my theory is that when I, they put electrodes on my head, they never changed the electrodes. Uh, they wiped them with a cloth. Put from one person to the next, and they were having drug addicts coming in and having shock treatment, and I believed, because of my seeping wounds, that's how I got Hep C. Well, [00:38:00] straight away, it was totally Uh, you know, I, absolutely not. I wouldn't, that wouldn't, but I worked at the Hepatitis Resource Centre and they said that it's absolute, that it's highly probable. But, uh, I helped my, a few of my friends who got Hepatitis C and they didn't get it through drugs. And they got an apology from the Prime Minister and 70, 000. When it came to me, I put in my claim, it was [00:38:30] poo pooed, I didn't get it. So, you know, once again it was, you know, I just feel like I've been pushed aside a lot, yeah. Just getting back to that enema. What was the purpose medically for that? Well, it was an [00:39:00] unpleasant thing. And sure, we were all, all of us were constipated because of, you know, the copious amounts of drugs we were on. But it seemed to be also used as a punishment. Whenever anything they weren't happy about, all of a sudden you'd be told you're having a salt and water enema. You know, and that's one thing that really sticks in my brain there at the hospital. Do you think also that, um, say [00:39:30] medication was used as a punishment as well? Or, why did they use such copious amounts of medication? I believe, uh, probably, I believe they definitely used me as a case for trial drugs because they were never quite sure of my diagnosis. And um, I, I really can't remember much about the other people but I know that most people weren't on the amount of drugs that I was on and I [00:40:00] believe that it was, I was definitely used as the guinea pig. Yeah. So initially was it the um, you were put on medication and then did, did, did that then move into um, electroconvulsive therapy? No, I think the electroconvulsive therapy was more or less given, I think I had that probably the day after I was admitted. Yeah, it was being used so much, uh, [00:40:30] in those days, you know. In fact, that psychologist I told you about, she opened up to this doctor about how her father had committed suicide and she'd never really got over it. And, uh, she was pregnant at the time, and he said, I know the answer for you, and he gave her some shock treatment. And she said, that son, she had two other sons, and one ended up being a doctor, and one ended up [00:41:00] being a, I can't remember, lawyer or something. And the son, when she was pregnant, when she gave birth to him, he ended up, He was, uh, he didn't have jobs and he was unemployed, you know, things went wrong and, yeah. And she opened up, she actually told her story, um, she wrote it down for me and asked, you know, it was very private, and it brought me to tears, but it was what she saw of me, [00:41:30] what had happened to her, and why she left the hospital, and I felt quite privileged that, you know, she wrote this out for me, she was an amazing, she was a well known Margaret Moon, yeah, she was a very So I was, you know, in some ways I feel quite privileged because maybe through what's happened to me, you know, has [00:42:00] helped others. You know, life as it is, it's already, I believe that it's already set out for you. You know, we don't have any choice in that. We have choice in what we can do with it. And, and, uh, you've either got to go with the flow, but for a long, that's easy for me to say now, because I'm in a good relationship and, you know, got my own home and car and that, maybe I'd feel [00:42:30] different if, if situations were different, yeah. Can you recall at first ECT treatment and how that all happened? I can recall, I can, I can't remember the first, you know, whether it was the first one, but I can remember that it's absolutely, that takes a lot to frighten me, but it's horrific. I've got [00:43:00] shocking veins, and, uh, I believe they put like formaldehyde or something into you to, it's like a muscle, It does something to you, and I can remember the electrodes going on, and I can remember that initial shot of pain and then just being unconscious, waking up with the most violent headaches and nausea, and every time you knew it was going to [00:43:30] happen like this, I was, I knew, every time I thought, you know, I won't wake up, I'm going to die. You know, and the pain of what, from my old hide of what it was going through my body. It was an indescribable pain and fear. It's just, you know, I actually haven't talked about it much, but I do remember, it's just indescribable. It was just shocking. Just unbelievable. And once, [00:44:00] someone said to me, I'll never forget this young boy, he was in there too, and he said they're going to give me shock treatment, what's it like? And I said to him, don't let them, it's horrible and it's taking away my memory and I feel so sick. And that boy went home and set himself on fire. Yeah. So there were things like that that happened, you know, all sort of things like that. Yeah. I have to deal [00:44:30] with, too, you know. If I had told, maybe told him that it'll be okay, things might have been different for him. Right from those first treatments, you could feel that your memory was gone? Yeah. And I kept saying to the doctor, I'm so frightened. I said, my memory's been drained. He said, it'll come back, girl. It'll be [00:45:00] alright, girl. And he used to say this all the time. And it was just only getting worse and worse. Yeah. How, how were the, um, the nurses or the other staff, um, I mean, were you having to be, like, held down or restrained, or how did that work? With shock treatment. Um, there'd be a nurse there, sometimes they'd be holding your hand. I, [00:45:30] uh, They put a, what do you call it, an airway in your mouth. Um, prior to me going into hospital, I was going out one night and I was ringing up my parents to come and get me at the telephone box and, um, this guy came along and he must have thought I was in the phone box too long. He went in the phone box and punched me in the mouth and knocked my teeth out, my two front teeth there. [00:46:00] And instead of mum and dad going to the police or anything, they kept it quiet because I was so young and I shouldn't have been out at, you know, 17 years of age. So, for me it was quite, that, I never got over the trauma of losing my two front teeth. And every time I had shock treatment, they'd take out these two front, the plate, and that in itself for me was quite a, you know, It was horrible. And then they put in this airway. Um, [00:46:30] But I can't remember. I think yes, I think they did restrain you because of course when you, you know, you have the shock treatment, your back arches up like you're having a seizure. And because of that, uh, two years down the track, I got meningitis and I think that I had a small. A hairline fracture in my spine caused through the shock treatment. And I went [00:47:00] tramping, drank the water, and it had the meningococcal bug in it. And caused through the fracture in my spine, caused through the ECT. So, you know, that was another side effect. That. What was the, I mean, what was the point of ECT? What did they hope to achieve? They never told me, and I don't think they ever knew, but I always, I thought [00:47:30] maybe if they completely erased my memory, that it might erase my memory of me being gay. I know how absurd that sounds, but I couldn't see any other reason. I couldn't, I saw other people around me that were having shock treatment, and there were some people that were really sick in there. And possibly, It did do them good, but I, I joined the medical library and I read books and books and books on ECT and there was a higher [00:48:00] percentage of success rate in placebo already. people being told they had ECT and there was more damage being done to people having ECT and round about the mid seventies they started moving where they put the electrodes because they realised, even though they'd never admitted that it was causing damage, where they They put the ECT on my head, and I think they changed it so it was on the frontal lobe, which to me is [00:48:30] still pretty horrendous. But I'd never admit that it actually caused memory loss, but sure enough, I mean, in the books and that, there's no doubt about it. If you have copious amounts of ECT, it'll cause memory loss, alright, yeah. Did they have any age limit in terms of, um, could they do it to like really young kids, or? Ah, that's another horrific story. There was a young Maori boy, and I believe he was [00:49:00] 12, 13. And he was an outpatient, and you were told not to have breakfast that morning. And he'd had breakfast, and he'd had shock treatment, and he died. And it was kept, we knew, someone had told us anyway, and we knew he died, but they, they hid it from us. So, and he, he was the youngest person I ever knew that had it, but he died from choking. He must have vomited or something, and he'd had his breakfast, [00:49:30] you see, and then came in and had, and it was just kept quiet. Came out later, of course, that he did. But we never really knew, it was, wasn't talked about at all. Was ECT talked about at all amongst the, you know, the people in the hospital? No. No, it wasn't. I was trying to, um, get the records together to get some sort [00:50:00] of case. And this was years and years ago. And I asked if I could. Go into the ECT room and I went in there and the minute I walked in there I just fainted, I just, you know, it was just such horrible memories. It was just, yuck. It was like a little torture room. There was these stainless steel beds and the ECT box was still there [00:50:30] and it was, uh, it was blin and awful. Did they ever use ECT as a punishment? Oh, I, absolutely, absolutely. I, I'm sure, you know, that I was given ECT when they weren't happy with me. One hundred percent. One hundred percent. I, uh, like, the time that I was let out, [00:51:00] and that my friend, She was homophobic, and she got this guy to go out with me, take me out for lunch. And as soon as I got in the car, he started putting his hands, and I said, Look, it's no use mate, I'm gay, you know. And mum had said to him, don't give Joan any alcohol because she's on quite a few drugs. Oh, no, no, I won't do that. Anyway, I can remember, instead of driving us out to a cafe, I said to a pub. [00:51:30] Applied me with alcohol. I can't remember having anything to eat. Took me back to his family, um, batch. Waikuku. Attempted to rape me. And he flied me with all the cider and that at his batch. And I was in a terrible mess and he pushed me out of the car, home. And mum and dad thought I'd taken an overdose. Rushed me to hospital. What happened, they gave me a stomach pump and then [00:52:00] ECT. Yeah, so. There was always, there was a sort of a It just, it just proved to me that ECT and salt and water enemas were the two main things that we used. If they weren't happy with you, they would, that's what they would do, either an enema or an ECT, yeah. Can you recall how many, um, shock treatments you, you had [00:52:30] in your time? Yeah, it was over 200, it was over 200. It just seemed to be my life, uh, you know, um, and, and so understandably you can understand why I didn't want to be on this planet anymore. Yeah, I've got the, I managed, they were very, uh, when I tried to get my records and that they were very, very [00:53:00] reluctant to get any records. And at the hospital itself they had records of ECT and when I went to ask them they said they'd had a flood and unfortunately my records were the ones that were lost. But we managed to get them. I can't remember how we got them but, so I've got a record of the days and the numbers of ECTs. Yeah.[00:53:30] A review of my medical notes indicate that I was prescribed ECT daily between 21st to 31st of December 1973 on the 2nd, the 4th, the 9th, the 11th, the 15th, the 18th, the 22nd, the 24th and the 26th of January 1974. Then the 1st, the 5th, the 8th, the 12th, the 15th, the 19th and 26th of February, [00:54:00] 29th and 30th and 31st of July, 1st, 7th and 9th of August 1974, on several occasions in or about June 1976, the 2nd, the 6th, To the 10th, 12th, 19th, and 20th of July 1976. 23rd, 25th, 26th, and 27th. And on other days in April [00:54:30] 1977. The 2nd, the 4th The 5th, the 6th, the 8th, the 17th, the 19th, the 20th, the 21st, the 24th, the 27th and 30th of May. The 2nd and 7th, the 9th, the 21st, the 24th, the 27th and 30th of June. 1977, the 18th, 19th, 20th and 25th of April 1979, 19th, 21st, [00:55:00] 23rd and 28th of July and 2nd of August 1982. And on several other occasions. A letter from the house physician dated 18th of June 1979 says that I had 100 doses of ECT since April 1977. When you got your records back and you saw the, [00:55:30] uh, the amount of ECT that you were receiving, how did that, how did that affect you? Oh, I just You know, it's like a dream really. It was unbelievable. I mean, things used to go on like, I was, sometimes after ECT I couldn't see maybe for half a day to a day. [00:56:00] And that's in my health records too, you know. Brain damage was actually quite horrific. Yeah. So, now I'm quite, um, I'm an anxious person and I believe, you know, anything like that, neurological, has absolutely been through the ECT, you know, damage through the ECT. I'm lucky, considering, you know, so much ECT, that I'm reasonably [00:56:30] okay, you know. Pretty normal person. Yeah. Reflecting back on all of that treatment, I mean, what are your thoughts about the medical professionals who gave that to you? I'm not a hateful person. I don't have any hate in me, but I guess the only way I look at it is The staff were told what to [00:57:00] do from the people above them. Um, I feel a little, a little bit of anger towards the doctor who always gave me the ECT and all the drugs, prescribed the drugs and kept asking about my sexuality. But he's passed away, I mean, you know. I don't hold, I put it this, I don't hold a grudge. I don't hold any anger 'cause it won't do me any good. [00:57:30] Yeah. Were you aware of any other, uh, people in the hospital that, that were there because of their sexuality? No. No, I weren't. If they were, they were too scared to say, I guess. Yeah. And do you think that that was the primary reason you were there, was because the sexuality was seen [00:58:00] as a mental disorder? 100%. There's no, absolutely no other reason. Yeah. The dates you've read out cross, I mean, a decade. Uh, you know that, so, so were you, were you in hospital for all of that time or you were kind of coming in and out? Um, c coming in and out. Have long periods in there and then come out and [00:58:30] go back in? Have to go back in. Yeah. So it wasn't all that time being in there all the time. I don't think they're allowed to hold people in, you know, long term. It was a public hospital at the time. It wasn't, they had a psychiatric ward which I was in, but it was a public hospital, yeah. I think you mentioned earlier about how there was a time where you felt [00:59:00] safer in the institution, that kind of institutionalization. And can you talk to me a bit about that and how, if you're coming and going out of hospital and actually when you feel that hospital is actually a safer place? Um, I guess because I'd got to the point that I didn't like myself, I had no confidence, I had absolutely no confidence in myself. Um, um, my social [00:59:30] skills, I couldn't, I didn't want to be around people. Um, and I guess, just guess that, I felt when I was in hospital, I mean this was at my lowest peak, I felt that there was nowhere else I should be in hospital, you know. I just had absolutely no, uh, faith in myself. I just, and I did want to die. I didn't, you know. So, of course I was trying to [01:00:00] kill myself, and when that would happen I'd get put back in hospital. And that was, that's the main thing that was happening, I was always trying to take my own life. Because I just, I'd had enough, I didn't, just didn't want to go on, I didn't feel, you know, life was worth living. And so, and then I'd get put back in hospital, and then you just go through the same old cycle. So how did you break that cycle, how did you start? Moving away from the hospital? [01:00:30] Um, I'd, I'd met my partner, a Singaporean woman, and, uh, You know, I'd really fallen in love, and I knew that if this relationship was to go on, I had to break away from the hospital. And so, that's when I made the decision, you know, um, This is a big step for me. I'm going to go out and try and find a job. And [01:01:00] that was the other thing. I went out to try and find a job in the social worker, where I used to apply at rest homes, because I thought that was to do with nursing. And one of the rest homes I applied for, The social worker had rung and said, don't employ Joan, uh, you know, she, she wouldn't last there and, you know, you couldn't trust her, blah, blah. Well this woman, she was a lovely woman, well she [01:01:30] said to me, I absolutely ignored that and employed her and I ended up working there seven years for them. But this social worker had been going telling people not to employ me, so, yeah. I was pretty angry when I heard that, yeah. And it ended up, actually, that woman who employed me, her daughter ended up being in [01:02:00] PMH. This was in the 90s or 2000. She was sexually abused by one of the staff, disbelieved, and, um, committed suicide, the daughter. And then he's just been found out again abusing another one of the patients, so, yeah. And what was it like, you were saying earlier about going cold turkey, off [01:02:30] all that medication? What was that like? Well, I've still got some side effects like really bad tinnitus, um, and I got that when I started to go off. So I just I'd constantly feel cold, freezing cold and shivering, didn't matter how warm the place was. Terrible nightmares, screaming out at night, shocking, shocking nightmares, and the nightmares actually went on [01:03:00] for a long, long time. Um, It's, it's all a bit of a blur really, because getting off sleeping pools, the copious amounts of sleeping pools is really, really difficult. You know? Uh, it's, it's, it's to tell the honest truth, it's a bit of a blur, that part. But not long after that, I went to Singapore for three months [01:03:30] and had a blooming Good time. Yeah. With so much medication and ECT, did you ever feel that you, you had lost yourself? Oh, absolutely. Totally. But then I guess there must have been a point where you start finding yourself again. I, I started to feel like a different person, you know. [01:04:00] Very shortly after knowing I'd broken away from the hospital, I, I realized that, you know, that I was me and that I was capable of doing things and I was capable of helping other people and I started to feel a different person. I really did. It was amazing. It was really amazing. It was like I had a second chance at life. But it was through my own doing. If I'd stayed at hospital, if I'd [01:04:30] listened to people, God knows where it, you know, what would happen to me by now. I don't know. I don't think I would have been here, probably. Can you talk about how that, that kind of recovery, Well, that process of recovery from going through all of those experiences and then kind of starting to find yourself again. Um, like, how long do you think that took and what were the things that kind of, um [01:05:00] Well, my parents always had this thing because I, you know, I had this thing of wanting to work and at one stage I had I think four, four or five jobs going at the same time. I, I worked at the rest home. I worked at, at the, uh, club. Um, it was kitchen hand. Um, I worked doing open homes for real estate. What was it? I can't remember what my fourth one was. But, but mum and dad were always frightened [01:05:30] that I might get sick again. And so I went on to the, you know, I was on the invalids benefit, of course, all this time. And I was willing to get off it, and Mum and Dad were always saying, you know, it's really hard to get on it, and just in case you get sick again, you know. So, because of that I was always on an invalids benefit, and these jobs are only part time jobs, instead of being able to get a full time job. [01:06:00] I couldn't do anything like that because Mum and Dad were frightened that I'd get sick again, you see, so. But, oh, it was amazing, it was amazing, earning money and, and, and travelling and, and I didn't have any, the only, you know, I didn't have any setbacks, I just, as I said, the memory loss is a pretty big thing to lose your memory and you've, because I've lost, I'd lost, although I went to a, um, gathering, It was last year when my good [01:06:30] friend Beverly died, the tran, tranny. And there was a woman there and her brother was gay. And we, her and I, were good friends. And she talked about all the things that we did as a, you know, teenager. And it was just so amazing to be able to be somewhere and feel good. And even though I can't remember those things, knowing that I'd done things with friends and that was a, it was [01:07:00] really, it was quite uplifting. I felt quite uplifted. So I really, I, I feel so blessed and so lucky now I really do. You know, and I feel lucky that I'm able to tell my story. And so when you finally got the medical professional saying, well, actually we misdiagnosed you. When was that? Well, that actually happened, I was claiming [01:07:30] for burns to my head at ACC and I had to get a medical report. And there was this doctor, Les Ding, he was a psychiatrist, he'd been a psychiatrist at PMH. And he was private practicing, and so I decided to, to go and see him and get a report. And he said to me, you, you're very lucky, you're one of the few that have [01:08:00] survived at that time. And he said it was unfortunate that you were misdiagnosed. And so, that was when I, yeah. I mean, I knew. Goodness gracious, if I had been a schizophrenic, I would have been on drugs, I would have been in an illusion, you know, all these, I had friends through the hospital and I even had a boarder here who was a schizophrenic and I, I know what it's like for [01:08:30] anyone to be schizophrenic, I mean, I feel terribly sorry for anyone who is. Well it does have schizophrenia, although they have drugs for that nowadays, but I mean I would have been on medication, I would have been imagining things, but I was going, I was just me, you know, I, there was no way I had schizophrenia, and there was no way I had a mental illness, the only mental illness I had was what they had brought on themselves in the hospital. It must have been very challenging when somebody says, it's [01:09:00] unfortunate that you were misdiagnosed. Absolutely, because I was, you know, I had meningitis three times, got it three times and I was Each time I was admitted to hospital, and I felt at that stage that I wasn't treated, um, like an ordinary, I felt, because on my notes it said that I was schizophrenic, that I was treated differently, so I pursued that. When I got out of hospital, I went to a lawyer, and I said, I just, [01:09:30] I've got to get this taken off my notes, you know, I have been misdiagnosed. I'm not a schizophrenic, I'm certainly not an alcoholic, and I'm not a drug addict. And all those things were in my notes, and I'm not having them on there. And eventually they took them off. It took a lot of, a lot of money and a lot of hard work to get them off my notes. It was terrible. I mean, that was one thing I hated. And in fact, I, when, just At the beginning of the Royal [01:10:00] Commission, there was something that one of the lawyers had seen. Schizophrenia, drug addict and alcoholic. And I really believe that he didn't want to take on my case, because I thought he, I still had the feeling that he thought, you know. There was still a bit of, he was a well known lawyer too. I won't mention any names, but yeah. So there's been a really big fight. to get that taken off my medical notes. So, it's been a [01:10:30] bit of a trial. Right from the beginning, it's been a long Since I got away from the hospital, it's been a long, long battle. Downhill too, I wouldn't say anything's been very positive. But I got recognised for the burns on my scalp, because you can see them, can't you? Memory loss, they acknowledged, and I got 10, 000. For that, it's time. [01:11:00] And, Hepatitis, I, they didn't acknowledge they would. And so, how I got that, I don't know. Um, yeah. And we'll just see what the outcome of the Royal Commission is now. But I still feel that I have to push to, to be believed, you know. It's quite hard, it's quite difficult, but so be it. Can we talk a little bit more [01:11:30] about the Abuse in Care Inquiry and, and what your role has been in that? Okay, um, when I heard the Royal Commission was going ahead, I definitely thought, you know, that I was hoping that they'd be interested in the case. Prior to that, I'd I'd gone, I can't, it's weird that I can't remember this, because it's only just prior [01:12:00] to the Royal Commission, but I'd gone, I can't remember who was running it, some lawyers and that, and it was to people that had been abused in state care, it was prior to the Royal Commission, and things weren't going that well, and all that, and I ended up getting 4, 000. I'd gone, I can't remember who was running it, some lawyers and that, and I ended up getting 4, 000. In the end, and, and my doctor, my GP actually, he's a wonderful man and supported me all the way, and he went on [01:12:30] TV for me, and because they interviewed me on, I think it was something like Seven Sharp or something like that, or the Wonderstafter there, and he said that he thought that he, he was absolutely appalled that They called it a wellness payment, and he said, this is the guy talking on the TV, and he said, I think they're very happy with what they got. Four thousand dollars, that's what I got, and I was told I wasn't allowed to say, otherwise they [01:13:00] could take the money back. And I thought, well, blow you, if you take the money back, so be it, it's such a small amount anyway. And I asked Dr. Glenn, what do you think? Would he say his piece on TV? And he said, yes, he's really shy, but he'll do it for me. So he spoke on TV and he said how much of an insult he thought it was. And so I had people like that, you know, my GP, what an amazing man to do that for me [01:13:30] and speak on TV. Just things like that in my life, I just feel so blessed. Yes, yes, yeah. I sort of, I've lost my track, dear. When you're feeding into this, um, this, this major inquiry, do you have to, uh, what kind of preparation do you need to do? Do you, do you have to, like, um, find all your medical records and all that? And, and what kind of assistance do you get for that, with that? Oh, oh yes, it was [01:14:00] a major thing. I had a dear friend and, and we got All my medical records, I've got a suitcase out there, and a big cardboard box with all my medical records. And I had to go through all of it, and then I had to write some sort of statement, and then I sent that through. And then they were very [01:14:30] keen to hear my case, so I was sent up to Auckland. My partner Marga and I went up to Auckland and that's when they heard my case. And I had a lawyer on the case and, and all that. And, um, then it's just a matter of waiting. We just have to wait now. And that's, it's quite hard because, [01:15:00] I don't know, sometimes I think At the beginning I thought I just wanted it to happen because I wanted people to know what I've been through and if it helps anybody else, but by the end of it now I think it's been so horrific that I really think we're owed some compensation. And I'm not afraid to say it now, I mean, goodness sake. [01:15:30] I haven't asked for a lot in my lifetime. Surely something can be done now. We'll just wait and see. What was it like going through all of your medical files and then creating that statement? Some of it was horrific. Like, I read things in my notes, like, This obese woman I mean, I'd never been above, I think [01:16:00] nine stone. I'd never been fat in my life. This best woman who likes strange music, and I like the Moody Blue, you know, there'd be such derogatory, it was shocking, and I was appalled. It's, it was hard. It was blimming hard reading through those notes because there was some horrible, horrible things in there. But I'm glad I did it, and I was glad that I was able to get my notes [01:16:30] and read it, because it was a real learning curve for me, you know. But it was, you know, I mean, it's probably one of the hardest things that anybody's had to do in their life, was go through records, you know, trying to read through records of things that you don't have a lot of memory about, and Yeah, it was very, very difficult and very taxing and trying and I just, [01:17:00] at that stage I wanted as many people as possible just to know how horrible it was and that's why I was prepared to tell my story on TV, to the magazines, to, to anybody, yeah. I just wanted people to know. Reading all those medical files, did it give you any more kind of insight into what had happened to you, and possibly why?[01:17:30] Not possibly why, but it gave me a bit of an insight into, you know, I mean, it just showed how far we have come, and we have come a long way as far as, Mental illness is concerned because, I mean, I was just You go to hospital, you lie in bed, you take your medication, you get up, you go for a walk around the hospital, you go back to bed, you know. It was [01:18:00] archaic, really. Do you think it could happen again nowadays? No. Absolutely not. No. For a start, they don't, in hospitals anymore, they don't have long rows of beds with people in them. Um, I don't think that those type of drugs, even legal now, that they used then. [01:18:30] Um. You know, we've come a long way with medications and that. And I don't, you know, even schizophrenics and people with mental illnesses, they've got medication and they know what doses to take. Why on the earth would they give a gay person a whole lot of drugs, you know, in the future? I don't think it would ever happen. No, I don't. Reflecting. [01:19:00] On all of your experiences, um, to do with, um, being in the hospital and the treatments, how has that, uh, changed you? How's that, how's that impacted your life? I think it's broadened my horizons and it's, it's, it's, I won't say it's made me into the person I am today, but Um, I've got some wonderful, like I've got a friend who's a doctor who's [01:19:30] And she's a Buddhist and, and, and her outlook on life is amazing and, and listening to her has helped me along my path and, um, given me the inspiration to be able to help other people and not just anything to do with mental illness but, you know, I like to be able to try and help other people. Um, it's just something. I like to do and, uh, [01:20:00] probably through what I've been through has made me more of a compassionate person. Yeah, I think so. In sharing your story and it's, uh, I mean, thank you so much for sharing your story, uh, both here but also in, in other. media, but also at the Royal commission. But in sharing your story, have you had other people reach out to you? Oh, [01:20:30] absolutely. Uh, after, um, the day after the Royal commission and I went onto the breakfast show, um, for example, I was at the reception desk and there were two women there and they said, we're meant to be catching our plane. Blah, blah, blah, but we so wanted to hear your story, and we just, oh, we thought your story was amazing. Can I give you a hug? That was so precious, [01:21:00] and then I've, yes, I've been places just after it and people say, oh, can I give you a hug? So I've had things like that, um, I've been approached by people, um, for my story, like, what's the, what's spin off? Um, I have to My story and so, yeah, I got quite a lot of recognition through being at [01:21:30] the Royal, you know, telling my story at the Royal Commission and on TV. A lot of positive. I haven't had, you know, this is the amazing thing, I haven't had any negative. Although my family's very religious and my niece was married to a preacher and They won't talk, no, my family won't even talk about what's happened to me. I can't even talk to my sister. She won't talk about it to me. All my [01:22:00] nieces, no one wants to know, and my family, so that's been a very difficult road to hoe to. Well thank you so much for, um, doing this interview today because I think, um, hopefully Uh, when this goes into the archives, then, then maybe the family can hear it at some point in the future and can, um, hear your experiences, um, and, and it's only through you sharing that, that we [01:22:30] know this. Yeah. Um, and we can make sure that it doesn't happen again. It's an absolute pleasure. And on that note, Gareth, I'd just like to say a little poem that my partner, Marg, wrote to me while I was going through the Royal Commission hearing. It's called Tribute to Joan. Joanie, your dogged fight for what is right has inspired all who know you. [01:23:00] You have climbed a huge mountain when most days it was all uphill. Now this is behind you. We can all rejoice with you and honor your brave and determined stand. You deserve this new beginning. You carry lasting scars from your long battle. I wish I could be a soothing balm to heal. If I could crush your pain to dust, I would blow it away in the wind. If you had [01:23:30] the opportunity to say something to your 18 year old self, what would that be? Stay strong. Believe in what you believe. And keep on loving yourself.

IRN: 3598
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ATL REF: OHDL-004713
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093103
TITLE: AIDS Candlelight Tribute
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Chanel Hati; Grant Robertson; Kjel Griffiths; Richard Tankersley; The Glamaphones; Trish McBride; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; 2020s; Chanel Hati; Cole Hampton; Grant Robertson; HIV / AIDS; HIV / AIDS; HIV stigma; HIV transmission; Kjel Griffiths; Richard Tankersley; Tararua Tramping Club; The Glamaphones; Trish McBride; Tīwhanawhana
DATE: 2 May 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 2023 marks the 40th anniversary of the first people in Aotearoa New Zealand to be identified as living with AIDS. In that same year (1983), the first AIDS Candlelight Memorials took place in San Francisco and New York City.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: February 2024
TEXT: [00:04:30] This is something that I wrote. In honor of, um, all our friends that have passed away, okay. Today you have called my name. And in spirit, here I am. I am one of many in a sea of stars. Rekindle my spirit with your words of [00:05:00] remembrance. That I may be, but for a moment, present in the minds of those that I once knew. Then set me free. Let me fly to the great beyond until I am once again called to mind. Let me return refreshed and ever more youthful than the last time you called my name. [00:05:30] For the bonds of friendship may we never forget. In the name of love, lead us always from the impact. Cura. [00:07:30] Oh, I was a volunteer at Aina through the most of the 1990s. It was a huge learning curve for me and some very precious memories of the things that happened that I attended or became involved in or learned. [00:08:00] The first one I want to talk about is my first candlelight memorial, 1991. Parliament grounds, dark, scary actually, and the speeches. Dr. Hettie Rodenberg saying there's a cure for AIDS, that's love, because love takes [00:08:30] away the fear. Tom O'Donoghue, they called him Rangatira in the community. Saying, I am a gay man and I'm HIV positive. I'd never heard anyone saying that before, ever. Let alone in front of an audience of, I don't know, 500, 1000, a lot of people. And then, [00:09:00] up the main driveway of Parliament, and down the steps from behind the General Assembly Library, came this. Astonishing spectacle. Two processions of people with flaming torches. Now they, sticks this long and flames that long. It was spine tingling and it was a [00:09:30] real medieval spectacle. And these people stood in a circle on the forecourt of parliament. And the 179 names of people who had died in New Zealand at that point were read out. And then towards the end of that part of the ceremony, the bells at St. Paul's Cathedral [00:10:00] told there was a choir singing Grant US peace. And then there were the fireworks. The great stars of celebration and hope. So it was just an amazing experience for me of a community, truth speaking, at the time when truth speaking had its significant hazards. [00:14:00] When I came out to my mother nearly 26 years ago, something like that, the very first words she said to me, and she's a lovely and understanding and supportive woman, were, don't get AIDS. And I think at that time, in the late 80s, early 90s, that was, that The message that a lot of young men coming out would have got from their parents. And I think now about the stigma that was attached [00:14:30] then and now to HIV and AIDS. And there was a, uh, there's a series of stories on the New Zealand AIDS Foundation website about people living with HIV. And one of the, one of the people in there talks about dusting off the cobwebs of 30 years of stigma. And I think the time is now right to do that. We never forget those people who lost their lives. The people who were our heroes, who were our friends, who were the people who [00:15:00] faced an incredible disease at a time when we didn't understand it. We never forget them, we mourn their loss and we remember them every day. But we also live today. We live today in a world where the stigma might kill more than the virus. So let's make the thing that we take away. that we must end the stigma. We must say that living with HIV is a chronic illness. It's something that requires management, support, [00:15:30] access to resources. But it's also a life. A good life. A life that we can support. So let's get rid of the stigma after 30 years. Celebrate the community that we are today. Support positive people who are all around us and remember those who've gone before. Kia kaha.[00:16:00] Whiti ora ki te whaiao, ki te o mana pā Whiti ki roha, whiti ki raro E nunu ki te poatu, e nunu ki te rākou Tītaha ki tēnei tāra Tītaha ki tēnei tāra [00:16:30] Tihe mai ora Whiti ola ku te wai o Ki te o mana o Whiti ki lunga, whiti ki lalo E nunu ki te poatu, e nunu ki [00:17:00] te rakau Ti taha ki te reta Ti taha ki te rata Ti he muri ora[00:17:30] Um, my name's Cal. I've been living with HIV for 13 years, 10 of which were not much fun, but the last three. I've been helped to a healthier, happier place where I've found true friends and loved ones and guides, many of whom I see here today. Um, a lot has changed since our people were [00:18:00] struggling and dying of HIV and AIDS. For some of us, it seems not so long ago. And I'm grateful for your experience, and I respect your resilience. For those like me, it seems so long ago, so far removed from our present time, where there was no news of AIDS in our sheltered land. But, it is still a major life event for those of us who are [00:18:30] infected. I know a lot of people don't like that word. Um, and it's a killer for an unlucky few of us in New Zealand. You know, some of us, some of our Kiwi women, who have lived without risk, and are therefore not at risk, are too often not tested until they are sick. Yeah, and we have lost some, some woman. Of course, [00:19:00] as someone who has been a gay man, and has transitioned, and been a sex worker, I was certainly at risk. When I was diagnosed seven years ago, I was ignorant of the reality our forebearers fought for. I was, um, Ignorant of the combination therapy that can now reverse the effects of HIV and the reality that we who are positive and [00:19:30] aware of our health needs stand to live as long, if not longer, than those who choose to be ignorant of the costs of modern food and modern lifestyles. That we who are stably medicated are not infectious. We can't pass on HIV and, you know, and it's good for me to know that I no longer have what I termed as poisonous blood. We, we are [00:20:00] aware of our body's needs, you know, therefore we can live long productive lives. But my ignorance at the point of diagnosis led me to disbelieve the specialists. My self loathing of my dress choice and my sexual predilection led me to believe that I was cursed and I was doomed and I was gonna die. I felt I deserved the fate [00:20:30] that was stealing my energy, wasting my muscles and corroding my skin. As the early effects of HIV became apparent, I began to give up on life and I began to drink a lot more and eat a lot less and, you know, smoke too much as well. In hindsight, I got a taste of what it was like for our honoured dead. [00:21:00] You know, um, mine was a bit psychosomatic, it wasn't actually real but, but I withered and despaired. Those days of letting HIV affect the victim before treatment are now over. So no others will get sick and suffer the guilt and shame of looking like they have AIDS. You know, I lost, I lost 13 kilos, um, I had trench mouth, I had [00:21:30] trench foot. Um, and all my fillings fell out, so. But in reality, due to HIV, I have learned to survive, and I have grown to thrive. Through the wisdom hard learned by our forebearers, I have become stronger than I was as a negative person. Through the support of our HIV networks, I have overcome [00:22:00] my self hatred and destruction. I have become open about what was my killer secret, a secret that I kept from my family for five years. I kept from everybody, my friends, family and all. So, here I am, standing up publicly to say, HIV is still here, our rates of infection are still high. And the ignorance of the many is still creating stigma for the brave few of [00:22:30] us who love our people enough to stand up and be HIV positive. So now, instead of hiding in the dark, away from memories, from public scrutiny, and the judgement of my peers, I am standing up to the stigma and discrimination that has lent AIDS, HIV AIDS, the hidden status. that it has now to creep once more among our people. [00:23:00] I'm no longer the sick sheep hiding in the shadows. I'm a proud woman sharing my light, loving my people, laughing and living with my friends, living the life I almost gave up on to the fullest of all my heart, being strong for those who come after us. And honoring those who [00:23:30] came before us. Thank you all for listening. [00:27:00] Kia koutou mā, hoke atu rā, hoke atu rā, hoke atu rā. And so we greet once more those who we have called into our presence [00:27:30] this evening. And our greetings have been complete. The tears have flowed. And the farewells Are now being given once more. And so we bid you all to return, to return beyond the veil, to that place where you reside the true home of the source of [00:28:00] all things at the side of your many friends and your ancestors and your relations. And we bid you that. You stay there this day and this night. In peace and rest[00:28:30] and to all of us. Who have survived their passing and continues to be here. Greetings once, twice, and three times to us all. Kia ora tatou.[00:29:00] It's all my time, it's all my time, away. It's all my time, it's all my time, away.

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TITLE: Launch of Downfall: The Destruction of Charles Mackay
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VOICES: Des Bovey; Kevin Haunui; Nicola Legat; Paul Diamond
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1920s; 2020s; A Way of Love (book); Archives New Zealand; Charles Mackay; Chris Brickell; Courage Day (15 November); David Cresswell; Department of Corrections; Des Bovey; Douglas Lilburn; Douglas MacDiarmid; Downfall: The Destruction of Charles Mackay (book); Duncan Grant; Goethe-Institut; Ian Cresswell; James Courage; Jock Phillips; Justin Bengry; Kevin Haunui; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Lesbian and Gay Rights Resource Centre; Letters to Lilburn (book); Massey University Press; National Library of New Zealand; Nicola Legat; Paul Diamond; Peter Wells; Prue Langbein; Rainbow Youth; Rainbow Youth (Tauranga); Richard King; Royal New Zealand Returned and Services' Association (RSA); Sarah Courage; Sarjeant Gallery; Stout Research Centre for New Zealand Studies; TV3; Tauranga; The Project (tv3); Walter D'Arcy Cresswell; Wellington; Whanganui; archives; bisexual; cover up; crime; criminal history; criminal record; gay; gay liberation movement; letter; morality; murder; pink triangle (symbol); poi; privacy; scumbag; shame
DATE: 15 November 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: National Library of New Zealand, 70 Molesworth Street, Thorndon, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the launch of Paul Diamond's book Downfall: The Destruction of Charles Mackay. The event took place at the National Library of New Zealand in Wellington, on 15 November 2022.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: February 2024
TEXT: [00:00:00] Kia ora tatou. Mākuu e tīmata e pēnei ana. Tūia i runga, tūia i raro, tūia i roto, tūia i wako, tīhei mauri ora. Nōrere i ngā reo, i ngā mana, Raurangatira mā, Ngā ihi, ngā mana, ngā tapu, Nau mai, haramai, whakatau mai i runga i te karanga o te pō nei. Nau [00:00:30] mai. National Library, international Library. [00:01:00] Huri noa, huri noa. Ngā mihi ki a koutou katoa. Te Atiawa ki te Whanganuiatara, Taranaki Whānui, tēnā koutou. National Library, tēnā koutou. Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa. Greetings, welcome to this fantastic evening, on this fantastic night in Wellington, to [00:01:30] Celebrate the launch of Down for the Destruction of Charles Mackay by Paul Diamond. My name is Kevin Homer and I'm one of the co hosts for this evening, uh, representing LaGans, the lesbian and gay archives of New Zealand, together with Nicola Leggett from the Massey University Press. So we really do welcome you here. Uh, to this [00:02:00] place, uh, which is particularly poignant because located here are the records of the lesbian and gay, trans, intersex, uh, and all the other communities that, uh, exist under the umbrella of Rainbow Communities. The collection of records, some of which Paul will have accessed, uh, to enable him to complete his research. So, it is. It is great that you are here and we're here to host you this evening. It's also, [00:02:30] of course, Courage Day, which is the International Day of the Imprisoned Writer. I know there are lots of imprisoned writers here, so I welcome you all here today as well. I haven't got much more to say because my job really is to open the, um, the evening for the speeches to follow, but to welcome you all. Welcome once. Welcome, trust. Welcome, trust. Uh.[00:03:00] Ka oti, ka oti ngā mahi e.[00:03:30] [00:04:00] Uh, K Kilda. And just before I hand over the, uh. I'd like to turn to my co host. I'd also just like to reiterate, uh, welcome to [00:04:30] family, to friends, to all in our community who've come along this evening. I also acknowledge all the, um, our peers, uh, particularly Chris. I'd like to, um, make a special mention to you. Uh, and if there were, and all other, um, People who are here tonight. Nō reira, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou. Hara mai, Nicola. Kia [00:05:00] ora tātou. My name is Nicola Leggett. I'm the publisher of Massey University Press. And thank you so much for coming today. It's one of those days where I'm sure a lot of you felt that you should just nip down to Oriental Bay for a swim. So, we're very grateful that you're here. So many of Paul's family and friends and colleagues and fellow historians. It's marvellous, so thank you. I'd also like to thank Chris [00:05:30] for agreeing that we should have the event here. We're enormously grateful, Chris. I want to thank Lagans, the co host, and thank you to all the team, um, who have helped tonight and all the, um, team also from the library. who are busy pouring drinks and helping with the catering. We're enormously grateful for all of that. This event is a little talk that grew. When, when Paul and I talked about how we would publicize this book, um, we thought that we would have a small talk here at the [00:06:00] library and Over the weekend, we're going to be going to Whanganui for four events, two walking tours around Charles Mackie's Whanganui, a launch, um, and a talk. But I think, um, as news grew that we were putting this event on, the R. E. S. P. list swelled. And I think there are many reasons for that. Um, first and foremost, I think, is, as we all agree, that Paul Diamond, um, really deserves the most fabulous Chapel Award. And so I think many of you are [00:06:30] here just because he is just so lovely and has been so lovely to work with. And I think the other reason is that this is a story. Uh, and the time had come to tell it. Many people know a little bit about it. I mean, myself, I knew a little bit. There'd been a shooting. And I knew a little bit about Darcy Cresswell. But no one really had the whole story. Someone finally had to tell it. And that [00:07:00] was Paul, and the time to tell it was to tell it through a queer lens. Um, and to reclaim, as Roger Smith said in an absolutely wonderful interview published last week, to reclaim a queer ancestor, two queer ancestors. Um, to tell the story in a way that perhaps it wouldn't have been told 20 years ago, even 10 years ago, you know, Paul has done the most wonderful, wonderful thing. It's been a pleasure to work with him. He is so [00:07:30] hardworking, so determined, so committed. So creative, so great at finding mistakes in a manuscript, Paul, you've got an absolutely eagle eye. Um, and really, as we went on, we just wanted to make a terrific book. So the book grew in concept. I think, you know, we thought maybe it would be lightly illustrated, but as it, as it's turned out, it's very richly illustrated, because the moment we started looking for images, we couldn't not use them. Um, and I think that people have really [00:08:00] responded. To the richness that lies in the book, not just the text, but the imagery. The book has also had absolutely extraordinary media. There's no place that it hasn't been. And Paul joked the other day that his next task is to conquer the sports pages. Which we probably could do, given that Mackie was involved in the Whanganui. Racing Club and the, we discovered the other day the Yachting Club. I don't know where you yacht in Whanganui, but I guess you go about in boats on the river. Um, [00:08:30] and then of course we've got plans for, you know, tote bags and t shirts. But honestly, there has been just so much interest and for this story to be on the project last night really is a sign of how terrific this book is, but also how much New Zealand has changed and how much the general media is open now. to being receptive to our queer histories. Um, the book is for sale, thanks to Sarah and the bookshop, and I really hope that you will buy a copy and ask Paul to sign it for you. I know he would be delighted [00:09:00] to do that for you. Um, but now I'd like to very much welcome him to the lectern. Haere mai, Paul. Kia ora. Nau mai ki Maki Land. Um,[00:09:30] Just wanted to add my thanks to the, um, people who've made this evening possible. Um, Ridge and Jasmine and Reuben and the other venues, people here at the National Library. The launch supporters, Massey University Press and Lagans, and the National Library. Chris, thank you. Really tonight, I just want to do three things. I want to talk to you about [00:10:00] collections, and their role in telling. The story that became this book. Um, some acknowledgements, which of course authors do at book launches. And I'm going to give you some introductions from the people I know because of Charles Mackey. And you're going to get to hear from one of them. So, as Kevin has mentioned, um, the launch of Downfall coincides with Courage Day, which is something I'm really pleased about. And as Kevin said, this is the New Zealand name for the International Day of the Imprisoned Writer. The New Zealand Society of Authors [00:10:30] named the day jointly after James Courage and his grandmother, Sarah. James was born in Amberley and went to school in Christchurch. He was a novelist and poet whose novel, A Way of Love, was banned because it portrayed a homosexual relationship between a younger and an older man. Sarah Courage's book describing colonial life in New Zealand was burned by neighbours who resented comments she made about them. Courage's diaries were edited by Chris Brickle and published recently by Otago University Press. [00:11:00] There aren't too many degrees of separation between Courage and Darcy Cresswell and Charles Mackey. In the, um, diaries you can read that in 1938 during a Ludden pub crawl, Darcy Cresswell suggested to Courage that the pair pick up a guardsman or a sailor and spend the night in mutual fornication art. This quote from Courage's diary is an example of the traces of queer lives brought together in Downfall, the destruction of Charles Mackie. So together I'm arguing that these traces are evidence of [00:11:30] homosexuality as these men understood it in their own times. This illustrates what the historian Justin Bengry calls queering the past. To queer the past is to let people in history define themselves in often complex and unfamiliar ways, or to accept that even if they did define themselves, we may never know how. It is a conversation between us and them about the resonances we may feel with their lives without demanding from them a direct line of kinship and exclusive ownership. Queering the past is an act that happens [00:12:00] in the present. So queering the past, retelling hidden histories like what happened when Charles Mackie met Darcy Cressfall relies on access to evidence, which doesn't always survive. I'm very grateful for the many collections I've been able to access here and overseas, and these include the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand, Te Pūranga Takatāpui o Aotearoa, Laggans, one of our hosts for this evening's launch. But there are many reasons why the collections I've been able to access and to use might not survive. [00:12:30] At the moment, about 40 of the several hundred secret erotic drawings by the Bloomsbury artist Duncan Grant, who, by the way, knew Lady Otoline Murrell, who knew Dicey Cresswell, are on show at Charleston in East Sussex, which was the house Grant shared with the painter Vanessa Bell. What really intrigues me about the story of these drawings is the miracle of their survival. So, in 1959, Grant bundles them up to be sent to an artist friend with a note. These drawings are very private. Please give them to Edward Libas to do what he [00:13:00] likes with them. Edward Libas keeps the sketches hidden and then leaves them to another artist, Elderly Knowles. When Knowles dies in 1991, the sketches pass to his friend, Matei Radev. When Radev dies in 2009, the sketches go to his partner, Norman Coates, who donates them to Charleston. And I love the story of resistance against the forces working against the survival of queer collections. Laggans holds the surviving collections of the Lesbian and Gay Rights Resources Center, the target of an arson attack in [00:13:30] 1986. This event inspired the Out of the Ashes event earlier this year. Where it was incredibly sobering to listen, uh, from one of the staff from Tauranga, from the Rainbow Youth Building in Tauranga, talking about another arson attack in June of this year, which destroyed the building housing the Rainbow Youth Building. So even when collections survive, accessing them is not always straightforward or easy. And when you look at Downfall, you'll see how much I've relied on collections in places such as the Alexander Turnbull Library, the [00:14:00] National Library, and Archives New Zealand, which holds Charles Mackie's inmate file. This records his time in five prisons from 1920 to 1926. The file includes nearly 20 of Mackie's letters to his family, friends, and work contacts, censored but retained in the file. So that's one of them that you can see clipped in the front of the file. When I told the writer Peter Wells about these letters, he described them as a gift. Wells was right. The letters enable us to get close to Mackie and hear his voice. And I'm [00:14:30] grateful to the Archives New Zealand staff member who told me about this file and how to apply it to the Department of Corrections for access. But while I've worked on this book, a blanket hundred year rule has been imposed on records like these, meaning it would have been difficult or impossible to access or research material underpinning this book. I used to deal with record staff at Corrections who I could email and phone, and they also told me about records they'd found, like prison visitors books for Mount Eden. Now, requests are handled by staff at the end of an information email, who don't always give their [00:15:00] names, and even where they do, Call centre staff are forbidden from putting calls through. The imposition of privacy rules has seen decisions being made on behalf of dead people, but I'd like to ask who can determine a deceased person's best interests. I think there needs to be a better process for historians and other researchers to follow to request access. The importance of access to records like Mackie's inmate file and being able to identify individuals was brought home to me recently when I watched Chris Brickle give the Keith Sinclair lecture a few weeks ago.[00:15:30] Chris said that privacy needs to be balanced with the importance of identification of homosexual men in archival files. Where people can be named, he argued, they become more real, and a more real connection with our communities is possible. Of course, the other big barrier to telling stories like Downfall is shame. Last night in Wellington, a collection of letters between the composer Douglas Lilburn, who lived at Darcy Presswell's flat in London, and the artist Douglas McDermott, was launched at [00:16:00] Te Herenga Waka, Victoria University of Wellington. Letters to Lilburn was edited by McDermott's niece, Anna Cahill, and Anna has said that her uncle, who had relationships with men and women, left New Zealand to protect his loved ones who he did not want people to associate with love of the legal activity. Writing Downfall, I've been conscious of the shame that men of that generation lived with, and I'm grateful to be a queer man living in 2022 with the rights and freedoms I enjoy, but I am conscious of the need for vigilance. It's [00:16:30] really amazing to see so many of the people who've helped me with Downfall here this evening. And, um, Jock Phillips, who's here tonight, was sort of saying he'd done two pages of acknowledgements for his book, where we were at the launch of the other day. I said, Jock, there's probably about 12 in this one. And when they were first sent through, I thought, I'll just see what happens. And then it's quiet, and then there's this, ooh, these are quite long. Oh, well, I suppose it takes a village or a whole city to write a book. It's a Nicola email bait. But I do want to [00:17:00] mention, um, some people, Prue Langbein, who's here tonight, um, was with me when this all began in 2004, and it was Prue's idea to do a radio program. And Peru was the one that had the courage to phone Charles Mackie's daughter, who was still alive then. So, I'll always be grateful, and you'll read about the story and the acknowledgements, um, about how Peru was so important and with me in that initial research journey. So, kia ora Peru. And I'm really grateful for the support I've had from organisations. I had a History Award from Mana [00:17:30] Te Taonga, the Ministry for Culture and Heritage. I had the Creative New Zealand Berlin Writers Residency. a couple of scholarships from the Goethe Institut, um, language scholarships, which meant I could study twice in Berlin and Göttingen. And that meant I could actually work my way around archives and things on my own and have a bit more confidence in Germany. And the Stout Centre for New Zealand Studies at Victoria as well, who gave me a space to write at one stage. Grateful gratitude also to my many readers, including Bronwyn [00:18:00] Daly, Chris Brickle, Lynn Jenner, Ross Webb, Des Bovey, Fred Meisker, members of my history writing group here in Wellington. Um, and a terrific editor that I worked, the privilege of working with, Anna Rogers, who's in Christchurch. And, I know I'm not the only one who wondered if there ever was going to be a book. Um, at the end of the day, but that I did get a book is due in large part to Nicola Leggett and the marvellous team at Massey University Press. The press of my old university, so it's another nice [00:18:30] thing. When Nicola picked up my manuscript, it lifted some of the weight off my shoulders and began a fantastic collaboration which culminated in the book we're celebrating tonight. And as well as the team at the office at Massey, I'd like to acknowledge the designer, Megan van Staden, who actually designed the book that was the inspiration for this book, so it was terrific to be able to work with the same designer. And Gavin Hurley, the artist based in Auckland, who did the cover image. At, here at Turnbull, um, I need to acknowledge my manager, Chris CK, who has [00:19:00] had to I've been there with this project from one of his direct reports for quite a few years and all my colleagues here at the library, both libraries, the Turnbull Library and the National Library of New Zealand. And um, huge forbearance from friends and family as I bang on about Whanganui and Berlin incessantly over the last 18 years. And particularly, um, to my partners. I've only had three partners, and they've all been while I've been writing this book. Two of them are here tonight, one's in Berlin. Um, so Bob, and particularly, um, [00:19:30] Richard, nā mihi nui kia kōroua. So, lastly, I'm just going to show you some of these, um, new friends I've made, thanks to Charles Mackey. Um, The person in this picture is Petra Hurdek, the first person I ever met in Berlin in 2007. As I, um, and that's us, we've just had breakfast, there's the Berlin guidebook on the table, and I'm out to go out and find Charles Mackie. So, back then I knew, had so little German, I really needed help from people like Petra, who we're still in touch with. And there we [00:20:00] are at the German Historical Museum in Berlin looking at newspaper coverage of the May Day riots that Mackey was killed in. So it was invaluable to have someone like Petra going with me to libraries and archives. Um, back here, um, the photographer Lee Mitchell Anion recorded me looking for bullet holes in Mackey's office in Morneau. And And then Lee also took photos of me and Wanganui. This is Ian Cresswell, who passed away recently. But he shared his memories of his uncle Darcy, [00:20:30] and it was great to talk to people who had actually met Darcy Cresswell and could remember them. And apparently one of his letters to Ian had some advice. It said to Always have handmade shoes. To always say thank you with the right inflection. I'm not sure what the right inflection would be. To always say goodbye and never bye bye. And when your host gives you a drink, you must never touch it until he touches it unless he leaves for an unconscionable time. When, um, Ian told me that, it kind of did bring Darcy alive for me. [00:21:00] And then Ian really generously introduced me to Darcy Cresswell's son. This is David Cresswell, who I met together with his wife Ruth. Uh, this is in Eastbourne, the other Eastbourne, in Britain, uh, in 2010. And on the Mackie side, um, Jo Mackie got in touch, and she's a Mackie family genealogist in Australia, and she put me in touch with this woman, Alison Lafon, who lives in France. And in 2010, she decided to come over from France to London to help me research at the [00:21:30] British Library and the National Archives. And then also that year, I met my friend Uli Rosenfeld in Berlin, and she's here tonight. And Uli introduced me to her friend Lubna Mesaudi. So Uli and Lubna visited archives, cemetery offices, and other places with me, and wrote and emailed and phoned on my behalf. And so did Prue's daughter, actually, Sarah Silver was in Berlin as well, and she tracked down Mackie's death certificate. And also during that visit to Berlin, I met the New Zealand [00:22:00] photographer, Connor Clark, who took photos of where Mackie was killed. So he was standing just behind where I'm crouching there. Um, it's now a chemist shop, but back when he was killed it was a Jewish clothes shop. And that it was marvellous to spend time with Connor when she was back in New Zealand and had the Tiley Cottage residency at the Sargent Art Gallery. And the third photographer I've worked with is Anne Shelton, who's also here tonight, which is terrific. And Anne was another holder of the Tylee residency. And Anne was [00:22:30] responsible for Mackie's name and title being gilded as part of her residency. So here we are, toasting Mackie with the sergeant, former director Bill Milbank, and Des Bovey. Now Des Bovey has generously agreed to launch Downfall and is going to tell you how we met. This is a photo of Dez and I the day we acted out the events in Darcy Crestwell's statement. I was Mackie and he was Crestwell. I have no idea what is about to happen. I'll leave Dez to pick up the story. Please join me everyone in welcoming Dez Bovey who will launch [00:23:00] Downfall, the destruction of Charles Mackie. Tēnā koutou katoa. Kia ora everybody. In 2008, I got a phone call from a chap called Paul Diamond. He told me he was [00:23:30] writing a book. At the time, I was in the process of wrapping up my life, preparing to move back to New Zealand, after almost 30 years in France. This Diamond chap, Had a pleasant voice, but I was suspicious. Diamond is not a surname you hear in France. It seemed like a made up one, for a wrestler or an actor. The French do not give themselves the [00:24:00] names of precious stones. Paul had questions about an event that had occurred far in the past during my previous life as a gay man in Wonganui. In 1978, which is almost 45 years ago, a ragtag group of gays and lesbians and sympathetic heterosexuals laid a wreath beneath their foundation stone on the Wangnu's Sargent Art Gallery. Mayor Mackey's [00:24:30] name had been chiseled off that plaque and we were asking for it to be put back. Our wreath was a triangle of pink plastic flowers. For, of course, there was a florist in that little group. Our ceremony was timid, even farcical. As soon as we left, our wreath went walkabout. It was picked up by the park caretaker, taken to a nearby monument for the war dead, and placed amongst the RSA's [00:25:00] wreaths. The solicited howls of protest from returned servicemen. The caretaker retrieved the triangle and returned it to its rightful place under the stone, only for it to end up a few hours later in a flowerbed. Whence, he again retrieved it and returned it to the plaque. Later, however, after angry phone calls from council officials, he confiscated the triangle and locked [00:25:30] it in his shed. And after more angry phone calls, this time from our group, the hapless caretaker returned it for the third, and I hope the last time, to its place beneath the stone. All this is cute and provincial, but our little pink triangle was more subversive than we understood. It exposed a city's moral confusion and incited a last ditch [00:26:00] attempt. At keeping a lid on this story. Wanganui was a sleepy provincial town with a well defined hierarchy of families. Mackie's scandal was buried, whispered about only by the best people. By referring to the story openly in the press and on the radio, we had outed not Mackie, but the story of [00:26:30] Mackie. And, by association, the story of his expungement, the cover up, which, as we all know, is always the real story. This was our temerity. This was our offence. I was taken aside more than once and firmly but politely scolded for my vulgarity in airing the city's dirty linen on national radio. [00:27:00] The point I'm trying to make is that although the wreath laying was a modest act, even a fiasco, it can be argued that it marked a moral turnaround. The exact point at which Mackie's reputation pivoted, at which he began his slow climb from villain to victim, and his blackmailer, his slow slide from victim to victim.[00:27:30] Great events can turn on tiny fulcrums. I'm not claiming that if the Wong Nui Gay Rights had done nothing, Mackie's story would have remained buried. Sooner or later, someone would have done something to rehabilitate the man. It only needed a nudge. That that nudge came not from some council official working quietly behind the scenes.[00:28:00] But from the hometown gay community, so noisily, so publicly, is a source of pride to me. Another source of pride to me is that I have been asked to launch Paul's book today. It is an important book for the New Zealand gay community and for the city of Whanganui. And I am very, very pleased to have it in my hand. At last. [00:28:30] Applause Like others, I nagged Paul to finish. I worried that he would be pipped at the post. The Mackey story was ripe to be told, and he was not the only writer interested. Paul was impervious. Not only that, he was quite carelessly generous with his discoveries. If it were me, I would have written the [00:29:00] book with one hand over the page, jealous of my scoops. And if the gestation seemed long, now that I have the baby in hand, I see why. The work is a tour de force. Paul's challenge was to write a story with a known beginning and a known ending. He has succeeded. The narrative is [00:29:30] in the detail, and in the sleuthing. So let me join others in congratulating Paul for his huge endeavor, for his persistence, and for his detective work, which has resulted in this lovely book. For it is a lovely book, a handsome book. I feel qualified for it. to offer this praise because I worked for 20 years as art director in France. [00:30:00] I know how hard it is to produce a work of this quality. So, félicitations, congratulations to Paul for a job well done, but also to the editor, and to the graphic artist, and to the team who worked together to produce this lovely work. Bravo, you have done Paul proud. I wish this book bon voyage and long life. [00:30:30] Applause Applause Applause Applause Uh, Tena koe, Des. Uh, no reira, uh, koutou katoa, um, I'm about to close the, the speeches for the evening. I just wanted to add my sentiments to you, uh, Paul.[00:31:00] I also was told that don't forget to go to the bookshop over here to get your books signed by Paul. Um, but once again, I think I've heard this evening, uh, Paul's particular skill at connecting. And persevering, uh, which is, uh, apt in terms of the way that [00:31:30] the evening was started with, uh, Tuia i runga, tuia i raro, tuia i roto, tuia i waho. And on that note, te hei mauri ora, enjoy yourselves this evening. Kia ora tatou.

IRN: 3513
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/always_here_telling_queer_stories_through_heritage.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004679
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093069
TITLE: Always Here: telling Queer stories through heritage
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Kerryn Pollock; Tina Williams
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1940s; 1950s; 1960s; 1970s; 2020s; A Way of Love (book); American LGBTQ+ Museum; Aotearoa New Zealand; Aroha Mead; Ben Garcia; Berlin; Blyss Wagstaff; Carmen's Curio Shop (second location); Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Catherine Healy; Chanel Hati; Charles Brasch; Charles Brasch's home; Charles Mackay; Chen Tan; China; Chrissy Witoko; City Gallery Wellington Te Whare Toi; Club Exotic; Club Exotique; Courtney Archer; Courtney Archer and Chen Tan's home; Dana de Milo; Duigan Building; Effie Pollen; Emmanuel Papadopoulos snr; Eric McCormick; Evergreen Coffee House; Frank Sargeson; Frank Sargeson House; Gareth Watkins; Gay Liberation Auckland; Gay Liberation Front Auckland; Georgina Beyer; Germany; Harry Doyle; Heritage New Zealand Pouhere Taonga; Jack Stevens; James Courage; Kerryn Pollock; Lambda Centre; Lambda Coffee House (Christchurch); Manawatū-Whanganui; Morgan's Buildings; Mātauranga Māori; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; New York City; New Zealand Heritage List / Rārangi Kōrero; New Zealand Heritage Pouhere Taonga; New Zealand Needle Exchange Programme; Ngahuia Te Awekotuku; Pasi Daniels; Paul Pascoe; People with AIDS Collective; Peterborough Centre; Pink Triangle (magazine); Queen Victoria statue; Rainbow List Project; Rewi Alley; Rewi Alley and Jack Stevens' home; Rise Cottage; Roger Smith; Sorrento Coffee Lounge; Stilboestrol; Surgery of Dr Thomas Ongley; Te Kāhui Whaihanga New Zealand Institute of Architects; The Balcony / Le Balcon; The Cottage (Carmen Rupe); The Purple Onion; Thomas Ongley; Tina Williams; United States of America; Ursula Bethell; Vinegar Hill / Putai Ngahere Domain; Walter D'Arcy Cresswell; Wellington City Council; Whanganui; activism; advocacy; building; colonisation; diversity; diversity and inclusion; gay; gay liberation movement; homosexual monomania; landscape; lesbian; pill doctor; place based history; pridenz. com; prison; sex work; striptease; takatāpui; taonga; trans; wellbeing; whakapapa; whakawahine
DATE: 15 August 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: City Gallery Wellington Te Whare Toi, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Locations already on the New Zealand Heritage List/Rārangi Kōrero that relate to rainbow communities can be viewed on the Rainbow List map
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: February 2024
TEXT: Tēnā koutou. Welcome everyone tonight to City Talks, uh, our monthly lecture brought to you by Te Kāhui Whāhanga Pōneki, uh, in partnership with City Gallery. Uh, I don't know about all of you, but this year's been speeding by, so I just want to thank you all for taking this moment to pause and look around us and celebrate. What has always been here, but has tragically been omitted in the [00:00:30] past. Um, our speaker tonight is helping to change that, though. Uh, and adding pride to the official New Zealand heritage list. Uh, Karen Pollock is a senior advisor at Heritage New Zealand, uh, the country's national historic heritage agency. Uh, she is The lead of the Rainbow List Project, which aims to improve the diversity of, uh, [00:01:00] Rarangi Korero, uh, the New Zealand Heritage List by recognizing places of significance to Aotearoa, uh, New Zealand's LGB, TTI, FQI, PLUS communities. Uh, that's lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, takatāpui, whā'afafine, queer, and intersex, and. Uh, she is going to talk us through the journey so [00:01:30] far, and the importance of this work. So, without further ado, please join me in welcoming Karen. Kia ora koutou. It's really great to be here to tell you about a project that is very dear to me and my professional and personal life. Heritage New Zealand, Pouhe De Tonga's Rainbow List Project. So thanks so much [00:02:00] NZIA and City Gallery for having me. In New York right now, the American LGBTQ Plus Museum is being established. When asked why now, the Executive Director Ben Garcia said, The people who were part of the early waves of the recent queer liberation movement are hitting an age where they're thinking about legacy and what the future of the movement looks like. [00:02:30] There's a number of people who have moved out of the white hot moment of activism into a more reflective space. We still need our queer activists, and probably always will. As Ngahuia Te Awe Kotuku, Takatapui Wahine of Mana, and a critical figure in our country's queer history, said in Korero at the National Library just last week, until every one of us is safe, the fight will continue. But it is nevertheless [00:03:00] clear that enough time has elapsed for us to consider not only how our own gay liberation movement of the 1970s has become part of our country's queer cultural heritage, but how we acknowledge, collect, and record all of Aotearoa's queer histories throughout time. One of Heritage New Zealand Pohiri Taonga's jobs is to maintain Rarangi Korero, the New Zealand Heritage List. Rarani Korero [00:03:30] has existed in various forms since 1975, when it started life as a register of archaeological sites. Today, it's described as the country's national statutory record of our, quote, rich and diverse, place based historical and cultural heritage. It is an identification tool, rather than protection, that provides people with information about our important heritage places. In the belief that they are quote central [00:04:00] to our national identity and well being now and in the future. These are pretty bold claims. Yes, this country has a rich and diverse history and a complicated one. But how well does Rarangi Kōrero do in telling it? Are we telling everyone's story? If not, then how can we expect those communities whose stories remain untold to have that sense of well being and identity through heritage? [00:04:30] National heritage lists aren't neutral, and they never were. They exhibit the power structures and dominant preoccupations of society at large, and ours is no exception. As my colleague Bliss Wagstaff has noted, Rarangi Kōrero, quote, reflects the legacy of its founding collection, the schedule of places put together in the 70s and 80s, dominated by colonial built heritage. We've broadened our horizons and approach [00:05:00] considerably since that time. For instance, public nominations have been possible since 1993, democratising the process, and our wahi tapu and wahi tupuna nominations rightly have the tikanga of iwi and hapu endorsement, thus reflecting the wishes of their communities. But we are nevertheless keenly aware that our heritage list still carries the weight of past biases. We cannot rely on the glacial process by which [00:05:30] social change trickles down to our heritage list and slowly makes it more diverse. Representation gaps will not be filled without a concerted and targeted effort by us. And so that's where projects like our Rainbow List come in. So Rainbow List aims to represent places of significance to our diverse queer communities on Rarangikōrero. It's therefore place based, but nevertheless starts with people [00:06:00] and their stories. In this country, environmental conservationists have been historically renowned, in the words of political scientist Aroha Mead, as Category 1 people, who view nature as a space without people. This could sometimes be applied to heritage practitioners as well, particularly when we are thinking about buildings with strong architectural values. While it's legitimate to focus on architectural values, which may be [00:06:30] the leading factor in a building being deemed heritage, this sometimes means that we've overlooked the human stories. For Rarangi Korero, we have a suite of assessment measures available to us in addition to architectural values. And for the Rainbow Listings, we give primacy to social history through a focus on historical, social, and cultural heritage values. Um, I really must acknowledge, because I'm in a room full of architects, that I know [00:07:00] architects design buildings for people, and have a really, a real care for how they occupy and move through spaces. Um, but it's, it's really just that this hasn't always translated when creations that they make are considered for their heritage potential. So, let's begin. We kicked off the project by starting really local and personal. With Whakawahine Carmen Rupe, who's out and proud way of [00:07:30] life in the 1960s and 70s, welling to do so much for queer visibility and human rights in this country. Um, I'm assuming you all know who Carmen is, but if not, um, I recommend checking out the Dictionary of New Zealand biography about her online. Um, I also want to take the opportunity to do a shout out. to her 1988 autobiography called Carmen, My Life, which is an extremely entertaining and enlightening read. She was quite a character. [00:08:00] Our challenge with representing Carmen and all she stood for through heritage is the loss of so many places associated with her, in Wellington at least. This is an occupational hazard in heritage, and while we can work with what we call intangible heritage, and often do when appropriate, Sometimes you just really need a building to hang a story on. This is Carmen's International Coffee Lounge at 86 Vivian [00:08:30] Street. Carmen opened her late night cafe and illicit sex venue in 1967 and it soon became a popular spot with local and international punters, both those wanting the sex service and people simply after a fun night out in exotic surroundings. She employed whakawahine, trans women, drag queens, gays, lesbians, and the odd straight person, some of whom were sex workers and others hosts. Above all, she provided a [00:09:00] safe working environment and a venue where anyone was welcome. This place was legendary in its, in Wellington, in its time, but alas, the building was demolished in 1978. Uh, Carmen's Coffee Lounge moved on to 144 Vivian Street. And that's the building on the left next to Steve's fish and chip shop. Um, sadly [00:09:30] this was damaged by fire around 2005 and later demolished and now it's a three to four storey apartment building. See you later. Carmen opened the balcony in Victoria Street a couple of years after the coffee lounge and she ran it for about ten years. She was at the coffee lounge from 6pm until 11pm on a work night, then took a taxi to the balcony until the wee hours of the morning when she returned to the coffee lounge. [00:10:00] In her words, the balcony had the lot. The male strippers were always popular with the ladies in the crowd, and I presented real female strippers, transvestites, sex change girls and drag queens. My place was renowned. But once again, this building was demolished, this time in 1989, to make way for the Wellington Central Library, which we actually listed a couple of years ago. Finally, uh, [00:10:30] we come to the cottage, Carmen's Brothel, at 67 Moxham Street in Haitaitai. This had ten rooms of a different theme, including Egyptian, African, English, Asian, a school classroom, and a bondage room. Once again, the building was demolished around 2014, and there are now five houses on the site. So, intensification. This has been a real bummer for [00:11:00] us, but all is not lost. Uh, this is the building that was once called Carmen's Curios at 288 Cuba Street. So this building was constructed in 1891 as a single level dwelling, and the second story was added in 1901 when it was converted to a shop with accommodation above. When it was listed in 1991, its statement of significance, the purpose of which, is to explain why a historic [00:11:30] place is important, why its heritage was merely notable for the timber fretwork, veranda post brackets and veranda rail decorations and decorative valance over the ground floor. That was it. This was in line with information standards at the time of listing and it isn't wrong. It clearly has some architectural significance. But what about its human stories? We simply did not tell those. But now, as a result of our project, the [00:12:00] narrative for this listing includes information about former owners and tenants, including Carmen, who described the building as a fascinating old house and such an attractive building, which I considered completely ideal for my type of curio outlet. The goods on sale. created all the decor I needed to attract people into my Carmen's Curios, and that's Carmen herself on the shop floor, and that's what the shop looked like [00:12:30] in her day in the early 1970s. Carmen was a real entrepreneur, and her Curios shop was but one of many businesses she ran. This listing has provided us with an opportunity to tell Carmen's story, admittedly in very short form. And we've determined that its association with her contributes to the building's historical significance. I would really love to find a way through Heritage to tell Carmen's story more fully and to [00:13:00] grounded in her takatapui identity. And it's fair to say that a focus on and the individual completely misses the collectivity, the community, and the centrality of being Maori to identity. There will be better ways of telling these stories through heritage, and takatāpui communities are those who can tell them best, but it's our job to build those relationships and trust so that we can be one of the hosts of those stories.[00:13:30] To date, as a result of our project, we have updated 19 already listed places, and the narratives we hold now tell their queer stories, and we have many more to come. So I'm just going to run you through some examples. Uh, I'm sure lots of you will recognize this building, uh, Morgan's building on the corner of Vivian and Cuba Street. This was built in 1922, and it's seen [00:14:00] to be a good example of what is called the transitional stripped classical style. Which demonstrates a movement from ornate to more restrained architecture that was happening at this time. When it was listed in 1991, the significant statement was simply, essentially streetscape value, the upper two storeys retaining their stripped classical facade. This really missed a trick. Morgan's Buildings has strong ties to the [00:14:30] Vivian Street red light district. Which is not really, uh, with us any longer. And updating this listing for the project has given us the opportunity to acknowledge this distinctive part of Wellington's cultural underbelly. The first floor was occupied by Club Exotic, and you can see, I actually think it's chopped off, but it was on the first floor there, there was a sign on the street, Um, from the 1960s to the early 90s. And the owner, Emmanuel Papadopoulos, [00:15:00] Employed UAE as strippers at the club, including Carmen Rupe in the 1960s and Georgina Bayer in the 1970s. Georgina told me that the entrance was on Vivian Street and that a Aui blared the overture from the 1962 movie Gypsy. Whenever a show was about to start on a busy night, the space could take around a hundred to 150 punters. The building has since been restored, since these pictures, um, and is now [00:15:30] best known as the home of Ombra. Um, and I understand that this striptease neon sign up there has been repurposed, um, for the Ombra sign now. But I'm a little bit sad it's not like that anymore. Okay, this is Auckland's Queen Victoria statue. It's in Albert Park in central Auckland. Um, this was unveiled in 1899 as the first of four statues of Queen Victoria [00:16:00] in this country. It was listed in 1981, and it has no significant statement at all, which was standard for a Category 2 historic place at that time. It's an overt reflection of empire and monarchy, and its public reception reflects the historical evolution and complexity of opinion on these themes. And ideas ranging from veneration to criticism and outright hostility. [00:16:30] At the unveiling in 1899, the governor, Lord Ranfurly, described the statue as a fitting memorial to a revered and beloved ruler and a lasting testimony to the loyalty and affection of her subjects. However, such testimony was not in fact lasting. The statue was one of the key sites of the first gay liberation movement protests in Aotearoa in 1972. As a symbol [00:17:00] of colonisation and Victorian morality, it was an obvious target for 70s activism. But in choosing to protest there, queer activists were employing both strategy and humour by selecting Queen as a motif to garner media attention, holding the inaugural Gay Week over Queen's birthday. Promenading down Queen Street and sending up the Queen at her own statue. Movement leader Ngahuia Te Awakotuku [00:17:30] is here in the centre, broadcasting Gay Liberation Front's manifesto to the world. 2022 is the 50th anniversary of the protest. It was a great moment to write a narrative for this listing, as a way of honouring our queer elders, alongside remedying our own information deficit. This, uh, pretty innocuous building is Rye's Cottage and [00:18:00] Garden, a private home in Christchurch. It was first heritage listed in 1981 as the home of noted poet Ursula Bethel, whose literary work reflects the beginnings of modern poetry in this country. Again, as a Category 2 place, the listing came with no significant statement. After Ursula purchased the newly built house in 1924, She set up home there with Effie Pollen, whom she first met in London in 1905. [00:18:30] All the poetry in Ursula's lifetime was written at Rye's Cottage, and the title of her first anthology, From a Garden in the Antipodes of 1929, symbolizes the importance of the place to her poetic output. The precise nature of Ursula, who's there on the right, and Effie's relationship has been debated. With some scholars arguing that it can be construed as a lesbian relationship, irrespective of whether it was sexual. [00:19:00] All agree that it was the most profound personal relationship of Ursula's life, and she was devastated when Effie died, suddenly, in 1934. She described her passing as, a complete shattering of my life. From her, I have had love, tenderness, and understanding for 30 years. And close and happy companionship in this house for ten years. I shall not want another home on this planet. [00:19:30] To me, that says true love. We now tell the story in the listing. This is the Peterborough Centre in Central Christchurch, which again was listed in 1981, and again has no significant statement. It was built in stages between 1924 and 1930 and was the city's teachers college until 1978. Two years later, the Lambda Centre leased [00:20:00] the former science laboratory as a friendly drop in centre, meeting place and coffee bar for gay and lesbian people that was open for around two decades. Standing for a Sense of Freedom, the 11th lowercase letter of the Greek alphabet, Lambda, you can see it up there in that ad from Pink Triangle newspaper, was adopted as a sign of gay liberation in the 1960s, hence the organisation's name. The Lambda Centre helped thousands [00:20:30] of queer people in Christchurch by providing a safe and supportive socialising venue with regular and informative STD clinics. From the mid eighties, it offered clinics and counseling at a time when hiv aids was, was emerging throughout the world as a serious life-threatening illness that disproportionately affected gay men. In 1989, the Gay Information Center joined the Lambda Center in the building. So it's pretty [00:21:00] clear that this is a building that was central to queer life, um, in Christchurch in that period. It was converted to apartments in 1997 and unfortunately was badly damaged in the Christchurch earthquakes and has been vacant since, although I understand the owners do want to try and restore it. Uh, finally, our final example is this cottage in the Moiawatea Valley in Taranaki, [00:21:30] which was listed in 1992 for its associations with Rewi Alley. It was built around 1918 and bought by returned First World War soldiers Jack Stevens and Ellie a few years later. Ellie is a significant figure in our history as a social reformer, humanitarian worker and teacher in China, where he moved in 1927. By the 1970s and 80s he became New Zealand's go to person in China, in [00:22:00] recognition of the deep and enduring relationship he had with this country, where he died in 1987. Why, you might ask, is this humble farm cottage included in the Rainbow Project? Various biographers have reported that Ali was homosexual, and we have included this in our narrative as a relevant detail about his life. There is no suggestion that he and Jack Stevens were anything more than friends, and it seems that China, which [00:22:30] at the time had a very liberal acceptance of diverse sexualities, offered Rewi the opportunity to be his authentic self in a way that New Zealand could not. Um, and I'll just point out that a lot of the places that we've updated for this project have a history like that, that may not in the end contribute to this place being heritage. Um, because that's a very specific assessment. Uh, but it's really important that we tell the life [00:23:00] stories of people associated with places like this. And so when we're listing a building that's associated with a heterosexual couple, for example, we will always talk about the circumstances of their life, their marriage, any children they have. And so to our mind, to talk about the circumstances of a person's life, when they live a different sort of life, when they're queer, is perfectly valid. So those are just a few examples of the [00:23:30] places that we've updated our narratives for so that their queer stories are now told. Our project has also yielded nominations for places to go on that have a significant queer history. By the way, anyone can nominate a place just doing a shout out for that. To date, we have received five. Uh, this is Putai Ngahere Vinegar Hill in Manawatu. So this reserve near Hunterville has [00:24:00] been the site of a queer summer camp for over 40 years. It began with a small group of gay men choosing to camp there in 1977, a few years after the gay liberation movement kicked off in Aotearoa, and prior to homosexual law reform in 1986. In 1978, the group invited more friends, and word of mouth over subsequent years meant it became a popular summer camping spot for queer people. A very distinctive [00:24:30] culture has evolved, with drag performances and the annual Queen of the Hill ceremony being held in 1985. That's the current Queen of the Hill. The camp represents the evolution of queer civil rights in this country. As it has developed from a small private camping expedition to a festival type event. It's also a very important place for Ngati Hauiti, tangata whenua of this area. And we'll be working closely with the runanga to tell this [00:25:00] story alongside the queer one. This is the Meteor building in Whanganui. This building was constructed in 1902, and it's of interest to us because it was the office of the Whanganui Mayor, Charles Mackey, who's pictured here, and where he shot his blackmailer, Darcy Cresswell, in 1920. Cresswell was egged on by Mackey's political enemies [00:25:30] and blackmailed him. He threatened to out Mackey as homosexual if he didn't resign as mayor. Uh, they met in the Sargent Gallery, and then, I think a day later, Mackey brought Cresswell up to his offices, um, and shot him. Cresswell survived being shot, and Mackey was convicted of attempted murder, and in the process fully outed in public, at a time when sex between men could [00:26:00] result in jail. The Truth newspaper, which is a very salacious rag, Called him morally unclean, a pursuer of perverted and putrid pleasures. And reported what was disclosed in court, that Mackie had been suffering from homosexual monomania. That was the wording at the time. Uh, it seems like Mackie is probably the first person in our history to be publicly outed.[00:26:30] But we'll be looking into that for the listing. So as a result of this, Mackey lost his job, his reputation, and his family. He was married with children. His name was removed from the Sergeant Gallery's foundation stone. Basically, he was expunged from the historical record in Whanganui. He also had a street named after him that was renamed. He was jailed, um, after being convicted. of attempted murder, [00:27:00] and he was subject to hard labour. Really, he was our version of Oscar Wilde. After leaving jail in 1926, Mackey moved to London that was the condition of his bail he had to leave the country, and later became a journalist in Berlin, where he was shot dead in 1929 by police during a street battle between the police and communists. Mackey has become a leading figure in the history of queer lives in Aotearoa. A tragic example of a [00:27:30] life blighted by homophobia and the criminalization of male homosexuality. Yet his story has been taken up by activists and historians since homosexual law reform in the 80s. In an act of posthumous rehabilitation, ensuring that he's not forgotten. And I like to think that our listing of this building, which is in train, will be another example of this. It really provides us with an opportunity to talk about Um, [00:28:00] the illegality of male homosexuality and what men like him had to do to try and live their authentic lives while remaining covert. It almost comes full circle when his cause is taken up by activists around the homosexual law reform period. So, this is a really exciting listing for me because it means that we can also talk about the 1980s as well as the 1920s. As an aside, you really need to look out for Paul Diamond's book, Downfall of the [00:28:30] Destruction of Charles Mackie, which is coming out in November. This is a circa 1880s house in Willis Street, here in Wellington. It's a pretty characteristic Italianate villa that was used for medical purposes from the 1920s, as were most of the houses on this street from the early 20th century. Willis Street used to be known as the Harley Street of Wellington and that's [00:29:00] referring to Harley Street in London, which is where all the doctors congregated. It was for decades the surgery of Dr. Tom Ongley who purchased the building in 1951. He was well known as what we would call a trans friendly doctor in 70s because he would supply synthetic female hormones to those wishing to transition. Georgina Byer, who described him as well known on the drag scene as a pill doctor. She's at the top there, looking [00:29:30] absolutely gorgeous. And fellow queen, Dana DeMillo, down below, were among his patients. And this is what Dana had to say about Dr. Tom Ongley. I started hormones when I was 19. It was 1965. There were three trans girls that came from Australia to be strippers at the Purple Onion for my friend Pussy, Itty Pussy Daniels. He's 76 this year, and he [00:30:00] opened the first strip club in Wellington, the Purple Onion in Vivian Street. The girls came over to work. They all knew him from Sydney, where he had worked at the Purple Onion and the Cross. He had girls working for him, but he wanted these queens because queens are so much more glamorous. I was sitting in the Sorrento, that was a cafe, with some of my friends, and those three girls walked in. One had a green see through frilled blouse on, and I could see the little [00:30:30] titties bouncing. We would put bird seed in our bras, or water in balloons, and they moved like breasts move. I went up and said to Natalie, How did you get those? I was quite shy, but I couldn't help myself. She said, from hormones. So I went to her place with her and got the name. When I left Natalie's place, I said to myself, the first doctor surgery I come to, I'm going into. I'd never been to a doctor in [00:31:00] Wellington. The way you get picked on, he could have thrown me out for all I knew. They used to say, get out in shops. Get out or I'll call the police. They wouldn't let you try on clothes, like you were some kind of diseased creature. And the first one was Dr. Ongley. I sat down and I told him I wanted Stilbestrol, 30 milligrams. He said, and do you know what these do? I said, yes, they can give you breasts. He said, [00:31:30] do you know what else they can do? They can cause thrombosis and heart problems. I said, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's how I started my hormones. And then I sent all the girls to him. I told him I wanted to have a sex change. I was the first. I don't know why. I was a blimmin scaredist. But I always used to be the first to go to all sorts of places. Soon as I found they treated me well, I'd send. The other girls, [00:32:00] all of them went there, went to him. This building was also the headquarters of the New Zealand Prostitutes Collective from 1992 to 2010, which is a really critical period in the history of sex work in law reform in this country, with the passing of the Prostitution Law Reform Act of 2003, spearheaded by Dame Catherine Healy and the collective from this building. As they had done with the [00:32:30] past building, NZPC provided space here for the Wellington Needle Exchange and a support group for people living with HIV AIDS, and this will allow us to consider the historical significance of this really major health crisis through heritage. This is the writer, poet, publisher, and philanthropist Charles Brash, who lived from 1909 to [00:33:00] 1973 in his Dunedin home, which he lived in from 1954 until his death. Its primary heritage significance will undoubtedly be derived from Brash and his contribution to the country's cultural and literary landscape, but we will also tell his personal life story. as is standard with any listing dealing with individuals of note. Brash was very discreet about his homosexuality, only hinting at it in letters and diaries. [00:33:30] But he was undoubtedly one of a number of gay literary figures of the pre and post World War II period, alongside Frank Sargassum, James Courage, and Eric McCormick. He was a great supporter of Courage. who wrote openly on homosexual themes in his plays and novels. Most notably, The Way of Love in 1959. It will be really interesting to see whether this home, [00:34:00] which is a pretty modest looking bungalow, is in any way illustrative of Brash's sexuality and life. Along similar lines to Frank Sargeson's house in Auckland, which is also heritage listed. In 1967, Sargesson had a room added for his lover, Harry Doyle, which opened onto a porch to give Doyle privacy. The discreet private edition can be read as giving the appearance of social respectability at a time when male [00:34:30] homosexual acts were illegal, and it shows how life circumstances can inform architecture. And this is the last of the nominations we've received, um, to date for the project. Uh, this is the Archer Tan House in Rangiora near Christchurch. Uh, this was absolutely new to me. I was not aware of this building or the people involved with it. So it's been really [00:35:00] exciting to, um, get this nomination. This modest, modernist house was a decades long home of two male partners, pacifist and humanitarian worker Courtney Archer, who lived from 1918 to 2002, and Singaporean Keong Chin Tan, who was alive from 1941 and only died last year. Archer was a pacifist and worked as Rewi Alley's right hand [00:35:30] man at his school in China between 1946 and 1952. So that's Alley of the Cottage in Taranaki. This house was built on Archer's return to New Zealand. As a home for him, and later for his partner, Tan. Archer designed the house himself, along modernist principles, which are evident in the mono pitched roof, the deep eaves, and the generously glazed northern [00:36:00] elevation. And it's very likely that he was advised, um, in this work, by noted modernist architect Paul Pascoe. The garden conforms to traditional Chinese landscaping, and this makes the property, along with the house, a sort of cultural fusion. Archer and Tan were involved with the New Zealand China Friendship Society, and hosted visitors with interests in Chinese history and culture. [00:36:30] Unlike Ellie, Archer was relatively open about his homosexuality. And the couple were friends with other gay members of Christchurch's so called Bloomsbury South set, such as Lawrence Bajent and Robert Irwin. Like Brash's house, when we do the listing, we'll explore whether the house and garden, both of which are very private and hidden from the eyes of passers by, reflect in any way in their design and layout the committed [00:37:00] relationship of Archer and Tan. So, what does heritage bring to queer stories and histories? Isn't it enough just to tell those stories in print and online? Last month I went to an event at Wellington Museum about the late Chrissy Witoku's Evergreen Café, which was open in Vivian Street from 1984 until the late 1990s. [00:37:30] The Evergreen was a haven and safe space for Wellington's queer community and a successor to Carmen's Coffee Lounge, which as I mentioned occupied 144 Vivian Street. Evergreen opened in that building after the coffee lounge closed. What you can see here is one of the many collages that Chrissie created herself that used to adorn the cafe walls and they're now all in Te Papa. [00:38:00] Um, and if you look in the centre, there's a sort of sepia photo, Chrissy is the woman in the middle, behind the DB draft handle. And also, there's a young Mal Vaughan from S and Ms, um, a couple over to the left. The takatapui and whakawahine communities, some of whom came together at the Wellington Museum event. to [00:38:30] share their memories of Chrissy, the cafe, and her legendary manaakitanga. Chanel Hattie spoke of the critical importance of places like the Evergreen in bringing people together, kanohi ki te kanohi, or face to face. The loss of the Evergreen building to a fire and redevelopment around 2005 means that it lives on in memory only. and if it was still standing It would have been a wonderful [00:39:00] candidate for heritage listing as a taonga for Wellington's Takatapua community and a built embodiment of manaakitanga community and safety. When Chanel talked about bringing people together, she was referring to when the cafe was open, but her message really resonates for place based history. Heritage places can work in the same way. They are a place to tie [00:39:30] or anchor our treasures. That's what Pohiri Taonga, our organisation name, means. They are a tangible connection to the past, and can facilitate a face to face encounter with that past, in a way that cannot be replicated on paper or online. Buildings and landscapes are not as good as meeting the real person, or peoples, whose stories they hold. But in the absence of time travel or paranormal [00:40:00] experiences, they are one of the next best things. Advocacy for the preservation of heritage places is another of Heritage New Zealand Pohiri Taonga's core functions. But the rainbow list is advocacy of a different sort. An unashamed kind of social advocacy, with the well being of queer communities past and present at its heart. One of the present government's priorities before COVID 19 took over our [00:40:30] lives was, quote, a public sector focused on current and future well being of New Zealanders and their families. One of the arts, culture and heritage sector priorities derives from this that, quote, New Zealanders share a distinct and inclusive identity and value our history and traditions. While I don't believe that we need these high level state sector priorities to do projects like Rainbow [00:41:00] List, they are something of a mandate, and one that I really hope endures as governments change. I do want to stress that the advocacy that drives Rainbow List in no way diminishes the rigour that we will bring to the assessment of places with a queer history. Today, Any place proposed for listing must undergo substantial research, historical research, and a careful and systematic heritage assessment.[00:41:30] And places nominated out of Rainbow List are so, uh, no different. So, there's no way that you'll see the two sentence significant statements of the past. We fulsome job these days. Because we must justify why something is heritage. So a passing acquaintance with queer history will not in itself suffice. A place must have strong historical, social and cultural value, and be able to [00:42:00] act with strength as a representative of important themes in our country's history. As I said at the beginning, cultural constructs like heritage lists aren't neutral, and Rainbow List isn't either. It reflects our historical moment. The growing and even flourishing place that queer people now occupy in our society. Notwithstanding ongoing influences of homophobia, as we saw in the recent arson of Tauranga's [00:42:30] Rainbow Youth and Gender Dynamics building, which happened to be in the city's historic village complex. But we are open about our agenda and what we are trying to achieve with Rainbow List. You could say that Rarangi Kōrero is coming out loud and proud. In this country, we have our own unique form of guidance, which tells us why knowledge and recognition of our history is necessary for our well being. And [00:43:00] that's Mataranga Māori, and specifically whakapapa, and its fundamental and unquestioned importance to identity. To me, there can be no argument that it is right and proper to undertake a history project for social advocacy reasons. Knowing that your people, your queer whanau, have always been here, is grounding and affirming. Or at the very least, a little [00:43:30] less lonely. Thank you. I just want to briefly, before you pop up, just give a shout out to Gareth Watkin, who's here in the front, uh, recording this talk, and I'm very honoured that you're doing it. Gareth, thank you. For his website, [00:44:00] pridenz. com, which is I would say the leading major repository of queer history in this country. It is an absolutely amazing resource. You're a taonga and I think you, you and Roger need to be knighted for your services to queer history. So, it's got a whole lot of interviews on it. Um, a whole lot of stories. It is just a truly Amazing thing, so I, if you don't know about it already, I urge you to go [00:44:30] check it out when you get home. Are there any questions? We have a microphone, so if you do have a question, raise your hand. Hi, thank you. Uh, it's not a question, but I think it's interesting because it's a comment about the lecture. Sometimes the architect forget the person living in the building. And this conference, for me, maybe super obviously [00:45:00] the comment, but I think it's super beautiful when Come to see architecture and we speak about the person to live in the architecture. Uh, more in the case to the heritage. Every time when you see heritage, we speak about the object. And forget the person living in this building. It's for this reason I think it's something that's very obviously my comment because the architect is for the person, and sometimes in this kind of conference, on this kind of diversity, uh, forget the [00:45:30] person for think about the building, and this kind of uh, research I think is very interesting in this way because, uh, the point is with the person. Uh, sometimes forget this. Yeah, thank you for that comment. Yeah, I mean that, that's basically the point I was making, um, When I was talking earlier about, you know, we have so many amazing buildings on our heritage list that were listed for their architectural value, and that, I do want to [00:46:00] reiterate that that, that is still right and proper, but in the end, buildings exist for people. Um, they'll always have stories, and some of them will be the ordinary stories of, of mundane life. Um, and There's no reason why something like those can't end up on a heritage list either, because it's really important that things like this are not just about the elites. And I know that, you know, some of the people that I [00:46:30] mentioned before, um, Charles Brash, for instance, he's absolutely an elite. Um, Ursula Bessel as well. A number of these people are. And it's important that we can tell the stories of ordinary people as well. So, um, another of my dreams with this project is, and I think the Archer Tan house in Rangiora sort of speaks to this, but the home of an [00:47:00] ordinary, an ordinary queer couple who were able to live their lives in a time, and particularly for men, um, but it was no less easy for women, even though, um, Lesbian sexuality was never, um, technically illegal. You know, how did, how did people prior to 1986 manage to live their ordinary lives in, in houses? You know, and so that, as I mentioned, that's why I think the Archer Tan House is pretty [00:47:30] exciting. Um, I know that there are other houses, um, there's one An Eastbourne, I won't give any more details because the owners have no idea, probably, about this, um, that was built by a woman who is believed to have been a lesbian. She lived there with her partner for many, many, many decades. So, those sorts of ordinary domestic stories are perfectly valid as well. Yeah. It really, it really does come down to the human stories that [00:48:00] places can tell. Architecture is very important, don't get me wrong, but, uh, sometimes it can potentially leave us a little cold. Like, I always want to know who lived in this building and what did they do, and so that's, that's what's really driving this project. Um, I have a question about the heritage assessment criteria. Sorry, very boring. Um, but the, obviously the rainbow list is, um, part [00:48:30] of the big list of everything heritage. In your assessment criteria, the, and there's obviously a lot of different categories of, um, different criteria, is there And just to disclaim, I work in the heritage team at Wellington City Council. In our heritage criteria, we have a, um, one particular criteria that says tangata whenua values. Where, um, the property or area [00:49:00] is marked with anything that is of valuable significance to tangata whenua. And that's a process that, um, Is done in conjunction. It's not just the Heritage Tama Council to do that. I was wondering in your assessment criteria for Heritage New Zealand Pohiri Taonga, Is there a, um, kind of rainbow criteria that you would add into your other listings? That, so that a potential building or place could be looked at for all of that as [00:49:30] part of the social history of it? Um, I, I can't imagine that we would get that specific, um, but who knows. Uh, so, as you know, we've got a lot of criteria. And so what, what, what is existing? And I mentioned historical significance, social and cultural. Um, They absolutely lend themselves so well to doing queer history [00:50:00] projects. Um, it probably would be a really big ask to essentially carve out a special measure for queer history. Um, you know, it could be done. Um, I think it would be probably dangerous to try and equate that with um, tangata whenua values. Um, and I know that's not what you're saying, I just want to make that clear to the audience. Um, like I feel quite strongly that [00:50:30] we can absolutely do projects like this using the criteria that we have already. And what we really need to do with this project is that it's all very well for us to, um, update our listings and get these new listings that have this really strong queer history and have them on the heritage list. Like, that's great. That's a very official and authoritative recognition of their value. But then [00:51:00] how do we actually tell people about these places? I mean, I think that's probably our next challenge. Um, You know, because it's all very well for me to talk about well being, benefits, and identity through heritage. But if my queer whanau out there don't know about this, well then, how are they going to get those, those benefits? So, we do have what's called a rainbow list theme. That's a way that we can, I guess, carve out something [00:51:30] special for this project. I'm just going to be very rude and say our website at present is really terrible and it's impossible to um, have a separate page for RainbowList which is extremely frustrating because it really limits um, accessibility of this information but we are getting a new website and so I think, I think that, that should be fixed. Yeah, but, but that's a really interesting question. I guess it [00:52:00] also raises other issues around diversity on our heritage list, like, if you look at all the different migrant groups that now make up this country, um, we don't have a lot of Pacific heritage on the list, that's something that's probably also crying out for attention, and we could absolutely use, um, this model as a way of addressing that, not to mention all the other, you know, ethnic groups that have come to New Zealand. And so [00:52:30] I guess you sort of think, well, if you were going to carve out a special measure for queer history, then what other, um, groupings and communities would also deserve, um, that kind of treatment? Um, it's not to say it's impossible or wrong, um, but our, our, um, our significance, um, criteria is actually set out in law. In our Act of 2014. So, it would be a huge [00:53:00] job to, um, change those. And, quite frankly, I can't see anyone wanting to do that work. Thanks, that was a really interesting question. Cheers. Can I just say, if you want to, sorry, if you want to nominate a place, if you know of anything, um, get in touch with me. Um, I have a really big Uh, database of all sorts of places that have even a smidgen of queer history, and so [00:53:30] nothing is too small. It might not make it onto the heritage list, but I really want to know about it. Um, you know, the work Gareth has done, which is very place based as well, Um, you know, we share information, and so we just want to know about these places. But if you do want to nominate a place for heritage listing, It can be any sort of place, anyone can do it, doesn't have to be the owner of a building, you do not need to get permission from the owner, uh, [00:54:00] we of course do consult owners, uh, but that's not necessary, so if you are interested in, in how to nominate something you can go to our website and get in touch directly with us and we'd be really happy to step you through that process.

IRN: 3559
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/e_oho_mana_takatapui.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004688
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093078
TITLE: E oho! Mana Takatāpui
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Fiona Lam Sheung; Kassie Hartendorp; Kevin Haunui; Lynne Russell; Nate Rowe; Ngahuia Te Awekotuku; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1970s; 2020s; Craccum (student magazine); E oho! Mana Takatāpui (event); Fiona Lam Sheung; Kassie Hartendorp; Kevin Haunui; Kāi Tahu; Kāti Māmoe; Lynne Russell; Nate Rowe; Nga Tamatoa; Ngahuia Te Awekotuku; Ngati Tuwharetoa; Ngāi Tūhoe; Ngāpuhi; Ngāti Kahungunu; Ngāti Pareraukawa; Ngāti Porou; Ngāti Rangi; Ngāti Ūenuku; Rangitāne; Te Arawa; Te Wainui ā Ru; Tīwhanawhana; Tūhoe; takatāpui; women's liberation movement; Ā ti Hau
DATE: 11 August 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: Taiwhanga Kauhau (National Library), 70 Molesworth Street, Thorndon, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: February 2024
TEXT: E te timatanga ko te kore, ko te pona, te pō kāputa, ko te kūkune, ko te pūpuke, ko te hihiri, ko te māhara, ko te manako. Kāputa i te wai ao, i te ao marama, tihei, mauri ora. Wāhia rā te urutapu nuitanga o i o matua kore, e te wahi ngaro. Kā tūfera tia kia Ranginui, kia Tāmaua, kia Papatūānuku, kia Tauāwhia, te tipu ai whakaata mai nei. Honoa rā te ira tangata, [00:00:30] ira atua, whakahokia te ngāo te whātumanoa ki te opu o te whenua. Hei muramura toha ki te whaeao, ki te ao marama, mā tu turuwhiti whakamaua, kia tīna, tīna, haumi e hui e tāiki. Tēnei te arorangi nui e tū akenei, tēnei te aro o papatūānuku e takoto nei. Tēnei te arorangi rau a ko papa e takoto nei, kia rarau te tapu ki raro.[00:01:00] E ngā mate o te rā o te mārama o te [00:01:30] tāunga mate e pikau nei i a tātou, ka mihia, ka tangia, ka poroporoakitia. No reira, e ngā tini mate, haere, haere, haere atu rā. E ngā hau e whā, e ngā mata o waka, a ngā waiwai tapu, tēnā anō rā koutou. Nā nau mai, haere mai, koana te ngākau, kia tāi mai koutou ki te kaupapa nui o te rā. Ko te kaupapa a mana takatāpui. Takatāpuitanga. Te [00:02:00] kārere a tā mātou tua. Piki ake kake ake whakatau mai. Kua tā tū nei koutou ki runga i te reo karanga o te ata. Nō reira haere mai, nau mai, whakatau mai rā. Whakatau mai rā i te whare o te Puna Mātauranga o Aotearoa i tū mai nei. A tīnana kei konei, Te hunga kei runga i pūrangi, Puta noa i te whenua, I ngā pūkōrero o te paiwhiri, Ko tō mātou tua, Tēnā koe.[00:02:30] E te awe kōtuku, tēnā koe. E mihi ana ki tō mahi nui o te whānau a takatāpuhi. Kei te whakāwehāhia mātou i te kākano i whakatōhia e koe i ngā wā rereke. Kā tātou e kite nei i awhina i te tini mai i tērā wā. E te tua e Kevin, kua rongo au ki tētahi whakatauki e tōtōhia. E koe e te whare paremata kei the Rainbow Room.[00:03:00] Tōku reo, tōku oho oho, mauria. A e hono ana tō tātou iwi ki tērā o te tini. Miharo. Tēnā rā koe e hoki e te tua e Lynn. Ka tāi mai te mōhiotanga o tō tātou tīpuna nā Rongomātāne. Ko te mātauranga o te mahi whakaora. Tēnā koe. Tēnā koe e kare. E Cassie, kia tau mai i te hāpori a tātou mokopuna, ngā [00:03:30] taiohi me ngā rangatahi o te whānau nei. Tēnā koe e te tūahine. Kātahi ki tōku whanaunga, tōku hoa mahi ōmua. Ka mihi anō ki a koe i kona i tēnei wahi, ara ko Fiona. Ka mihi atu ki a koe. Ka puta aku mihi ki ngā kai mahi kātoa.[00:04:00] Nō reira i te iwi, mauri tū, mauri ora, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā ao, anō rā koutou katoa kahuri.[00:04:30] Ka oti, ka oti ngā mahi e. Haere mai e te iwi ki a Piritaua, Kia kite atu ai ngā [00:05:00] kupu whakairi e. E nēna wāriu![00:05:30] Kia ora tatou. Tēnā tatou, tēnā koutou i te iwi, Te Puna Matauranga o Aotearoa. Mo tō mihi mai kia mātanga, ngā takatāpui kua kua hui hui mai i tēnei wā, [00:06:00] ki ngā puna kōrero kua tāi mai nei i tēnei wā, Tēnā tatou. Tēnē rā te mihi ki a koutou. Ko koutou nā te pōhiri, ko tāimai mātou. I runga i te kaupapu o te rā, e pā ana ki te hunga tangataapui. No reira, tēnā koutou. Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou. Me te mihi atu ano hoki, āe, e tika [00:06:30] ana ki a rātou mā, ki a rātou mā kua whetūrangitia. He kore rā tau. e warewaretia. Ina waa katoa. No reira, ina mate, haere, haere haere. Haere ki te moingaroa, ki te pōwhiriuri, haere. No reira, kāre e roa te kōrero, te mea nui ko tāmai, me te mihi [00:07:00] atu ki a kātou mō te whakatau ki a mātou ko tāmai nei. Well.[00:07:30] Ki te hau kainga, nō rei Te ātiawa, Taranaki whānau, tēnei rā te mihi. Nēi rā mātau, kō tāumai, i rengu o koutou nei manaakitanga, nō reira tēnā koutou. Tērā pēa, kā mutu ngā mihi inaia nei. Kā hoki anō, [00:08:00] whaimuri i ngā waiata. Tautoko. e haere ake nei i tēnei wā. Tēnei wāiata, ēnei wāiata, nō te roopu a Te Whanau Whanau. Ah, nō reira Chanel, tēnā koe, tēnā koutou e te whānau.[00:08:30] [00:09:00] It's I'm not the way, not the now, not the way I am, it's I'm not the [00:09:30] way. Oh, God. Step forward. Okay, you're up. You're up.[00:10:00] [00:10:30] [00:11:00] [00:11:30] Ka kite, ka kite, eh, ka kite, eh, ka kite, Ko Ke Ao Mau, Ki Aro! Tēnā koutou katoa. [00:12:00] E tikaanga te mahi tahi, me te mahi aroha. Tēnā koutou katoa. Okay. Kia ora te whanau. And thank you, National Library, for a warm welcome. We're really pleased to see so many people here in the whare, especially because Wellington is freezing today. How cold is it? [00:12:30] Yeah, it's cold. It is below 10 degrees. So for all of those who are in the house, we thank you for making the time to come out today. Um, in this moment, I also want to say thank you to Kevin, who is on the screen looking handsome. And it doesn't add even 10 kgs on this man. So thank you, Kevin. Um, also my accolades to Tiwhanawhana. Coming out in my days, these women held my hand, [00:13:00] looked after me, and created a community that I felt safe in. Inclusive. So it's funny how full circles come around, and I find myself back in the spaces of our sisterhood. So thank you. Um, performing up here is not easy, just being up here is not easy, but these experts are going to show you how easy it is. So, um, just before we launch into today, the event falls into two kind of areas. [00:13:30] Um, gay liberation, which Te Awe Kotuku. You're going to share some great stories with us there. Um, and then we're going to look at what that looks like in current environment. We also have questions in the webinar, so if you're joining us online, tap your questions in. I'm not promising that all questions will be answered or, or relayed, but um, if you are in our audience here in the whare, raise your hands and we'll see how [00:14:00] that goes. We're going to be organic. In our delivery today, so where the conversation takes us is where we're going to go. If it goes to an unsafe place, because this is a very safe place, we're just going to say our safe word, which is purple pants, and we're going to stop the conversation. We'll just redirect it. Hopefully no one has purple pants on today, but I'll make you stand up. But that's not really keeping you that safe, is it? Um, so, without further ado, we're going to go first to the man on the screen, [00:14:30] Kevin, to do an introduction of yourself. Thank you, Kevin. Kia ora. Kia ora, Fi. Kia ora, Ngahuia. Kia ora, Lynne. Kia ora, Cassie. It's my honour, really, to be speaking, um At this, uh, particular forum, and I guess if there are any messages that I wanted to, to have a kōrero about, was really just questioning the, um, [00:15:00] you know, I think the, the brief was how I've Taka Tāpui paved the way for, for gay liberation, and of course, typically I looked at, uh, what the impact of gay liberation means, today, in my, uh, through my lens, and I'm thinking, oh, perhaps Takatāpui paved the way for, for gay liberation by just being who we are, [00:15:30] just being, knowing who we are, knowing who, uh, our whānau are, knowing our whakapapa, knowing the ways of our world, because, in my view, uh, I don't know. I don't know. Gay liberation was basically catching up with where we ought to have been. And so there, uh, there were issues that of course affected, uh, Takatāpui, and I think through my lens [00:16:00] at the moment, it was an opportunity to leverage that opportunity, to declare who we were, but also that we are Māori, and inextricably linked to being Māori. So, you know, that was, for me, uh, Did we pave the way for gay liberation? I'm thinking perhaps gay liberation had an opportunity to catch up with the world as it has always been for us as Māori. So, um, that was something I thought [00:16:30] about, uh, quite succinctly in terms of how we have, uh, are today. Again, I think just being who we are, but we've had to create spaces also, um, to enable our community to build, to enable us to recognize ourselves. We've had some really, uh, challenging experiences. And I'm just a newbie on the block, really, uh, but the ones that I [00:17:00] do remember, particularly around the Destiny Church March, uh, caused me to think about how that was challenging, uh, myself as an individual, Takatāpui, and what that was saying about me as Māori, or what People might have been seeing about me as Māori, and so, you know, I wrote a song in response to that called He Hau, which, in the first instance, was to highlight that we were in [00:17:30] every part of our society and every part of our culture. Whether we were speakers, whether we were singers, artists, we carried all the memories. We were, whether we were sentries, you know, we were, we were everywhere. Uh, and so, to me, I was trying to, I guess, reflect to, back to myself that, yes, we're a valued part of our community, and we need to be reminded about that, so that we don't get, uh, [00:18:00] you know, caught up in, in the vitriolic of the day, which was trying to isolate and attack, uh, people of, of, uh, Varied sexual orientations, the way we might express our gender, the way that we might identify ourselves within our gender, and even, you know, that our sexual characteristics are all, uh, not necessarily [00:18:30] exactly the same. That type of thing. So, being part of Te Whanau Whanau who has, uh, who provided some whanau, you know, that was an opportunity for us to create spaces to build community. Takatāpui community, our wider links to our rainbow communities, our wider links to our Māori communities, all those sorts of things, and to be able to tell our own stories. So for me, those are some of [00:19:00] the ways that I think we have taken advantage of what gay liberation, so to speak, brought about. But to me, it was also about being Māori and being Takatāpui. So I, I throw that in there as a, as a bit of a, my speak, you know, te whanawhana comes from this uh, kōrero called te whanawhana a he kahukura i te rangi. And the way that I've [00:19:30] always, um, understood that phrase was that a rainbow was forming in the sky. And so for me, the sky represented the whole of humanity and that uh, te whanawhana a he kahukura i te rangi was. about us as Takatāpui coming to claim our place within society, as equal members of society. And that's how I saw also what gay liberation was possibly about, as equal members [00:20:00] of society, free in our sexual orientation, free to be who we are. But the difference is, I think, as Takatāpui, and being Māori, we also understood As Maori, our collective responsibilities, uh, and our connection to AU to , all of those things that are very important for our wellbeing.[00:20:30] Kia ora, Kevin. Um, such a beautiful introduction into our kōrero today. Also about Te Whanau Whanau and the spectrum. Isn't it interesting how the spectrum is used for lots of terms today? But if you live in Pōneke and you want to join Kapa Haka, well, join Te Whanau Whanau. It's on every Monday night, 6 Thursday, uh, 6. 30. Uh, they have a webpage, so. Click the [00:21:00] link, join, join this group, be inclusive, learn our waiata, and be invited to gigs like this. I am going to hand over the rākau, well the mic rākau, to Cassie. Kia ora tātou, um, Tēnā koe, Nate, mō tō karakia me te mihi.[00:21:30] National Library. Um. Ko wai au? I te taha tōku papa no Ingarani, no Kotorani, no Italia a hau. I te taha o tōku mama ko Tararua te maunga, ko [00:22:00] Hoki o te awa, ko Tainui te waka, ko Ngāti Raukawa ki te Tonga te iwi, ko Ngāti Pari Raukawa te hapū, ko ngā tokowaru te marae. I te taha o tōku mama ko[00:22:30] Uh. My name is Cassie and, um, I, I, I whakapapa to a few different places and just acknowledging my, um, many families that bring me here and, and to the people who've created this event. It's a real joy to be able to sit here. I think if Kevin is a baby, then I don't know what that makes me. Um, so I'm feeling like, like have I even been conceived [00:23:00] yet, um, at this point, um, and, and I guess, I just, Kevin man, like you always just go straight to the heart, to the ngākau of the kōrero, like just right there and, and bringing it forward and revealing about what this is all about and, and so. I guess in response to that, what I want to say is that, uh, you know, if it weren't for the people who were in this room, on this [00:23:30] call, um, opening our waiata, if it wasn't for the people here, well, I certainly wouldn't be in this room. Um, to me The, the kupu takataapui has always meant more than this kind of Pākehā idea of, you know, oh, we, we, we are who we are. We, we choose who we love or, or our identity in this very kind of narrow sense. Takatāpui has always been more than that for me. It has been about [00:24:00] whakapapa. And it is about whakapapa who, yes, you come from, but it's also the people who, who nourish you, and feed you, and look after you. Like, Fi, what you were talking about before, most certainly people like Kevin. And people like Chanel and Renee who are here at the front. Um, if it wasn't for them looking after me when I was a young one in, in Te Whanganui a Tara, I wouldn't be here. And so, uh, Takatāpui has always been about the collective. It's about bigger than just us, um, as [00:24:30] individuals. It goes, um, beyond space and time. It stretches into the past, into the present, but also into the future as well, because I think we often don't talk about how Takatāpui also form our own whakapapa families. And so, yeah, I, I'm, I'm proud to have, I guess, received, um, this, this tradition, this kōrero, that was never, um, offered. It was, It was reclaimed, it was taken, [00:25:00] it was, it was, um, held onto, it was resisted, it was, I mean, the, the picture before of Te Awa Kotuku, just the, the fierceness in your eyes in that picture, it's, it's, um, it's that, it is that, and so I just want to mihi to everyone here who has been a part of, of keeping takatāpui alive as it is today. Kia ora. And this is why she is on that panel. Isn't she lit? I mean, [00:25:30] you bring us full circle, even though you are the youngest on this panel. So, kia ora. We speak about freedom. That's what Kevin spoke about, Cassie. It's all about freedom, freedom to be who you are. I'm going to hand the rākau over to Lynn. Tēnā rā koutou katoa. Tēnā koutou katoa. Tēnā koutou katoa. Tēnā koutou katoa. Tēnā koutou katoa. Uh, tēnā rā koutou, um, [00:26:00] ki ngā kaiwhakahauri, um, tēnā koroa, tēnā koutou, ki te whānau o te whanawhana, a ka nui te mi aroha ki a koutou, ngā tāngata, ka nui te mi aroha, um, ki aku hoomā, tēnā rā koutou katoa, uh, ko wai au, kia. Uh, Huri tēnei o Kaitahu, Ngāti Kahungunu, Ngāti Porou. Um, [00:26:30] ki te Waipounamu, ko Ōraki te Mauka, ko Waitaki te Awa, Takitimi te Waka, ko Kaiterua, Hikihiki te Hapū, ko Ōtākau te Marae. Ki te Ika o Māui, uh, no Takapau taku pāpā. Um, uh, ko Rākau Tātahi taku marae. Um, Ko Ngāti Marau me ki kiri o te rangi, um, oku hapū. Uh, [00:27:00] Ko Lynn, tōku ingo. Ka huri au te reo Pākehāne. Ah, kia ora, kia ora kaitou. Uh, I'm not sure why Kevin started us off on that way and telling us he was the baby, because honestly, I have spent a couple of days, um, Moaning in Aue's ear that why am I on this panel? Like, I'm not sure what I have to say. So I thought I'd just [00:27:30] throw a whole lot of things out there to begin with. The reason I say that is because, as I've expressed, um, and as Cassie has already explained, I feel like I'm a recipient of the, I'm, I'm, I'm an end user. I'm one of the lucky ones who has been able to come through on the hard graft of people in this room. You know, the rangatira who've paved the way for us. I feel like I need to give some context [00:28:00] to that a little bit. Um, so I knew, I didn't know where to throw this in, so I'm just going to go straight with it. Straight. In my previous life. When the, um, homosexual law reform, uh, was being fought for, I worked in a scripture union bookshop. I know, right? You didn't know this, right, eh? And so now it's [00:28:30] coming out. I sold Bibles. I was really good at it. I knew, um, I knew every version of the Bible there was and you know, I was so good at it that, um, I had been able to take over the buying and selling of all the music because Christian music, man, I knew it back then. I also, this is the part that's scary. Oh God. I used to be in Salvation Army. I know that nobody really knows that. This is usually a party. [00:29:00] A party game, eh? Tell me one thing. Tell us three things about you that no one knows, and guess which one's a lie. No one ever picks that. But it's the truth. And it's part of my truth. And, um, you know, I describe myself these days as a storyteller. Um, and I'm really passionate about that because, you know, if we don't tell our stories, someone else will tell them for us, and if there's one thing that really, you know, gets me going is, is [00:29:30] when other people define me or define us and tell my story or tell our stories differently than, than how we know them to be. So that is part of my story, um, and yeah, that's part of my story. I am married to the most gorgeous woman from Te Atihaunui a Papārangi now, and I'm well aware of the The fact that I can sit here so casually and say I'm married to this beautiful wāhine [00:30:00] is, um, is, is, is a different story than what she and others tell. And I'll just share this one story before I go. Hand the mic over to you. On the night Oh no, on the two readings of the um, Marriage Amendment Act. Uh, we sat at home and we watched, and we're both bawling our eyes out, crying like babies, but [00:30:30] for very different reasons. And um, my privilege was very evident to me that night. So My darling turned to me with anger and said to me, What fucking right do you have to cry? And I was crying for the human rights, you know, the absolute wonder and, [00:31:00] oh, I was so freaking happy. But she said to me, what right do you have to cry? Because you haven't had to. you know, go through the shit, or lose the friends, or all that kind of stuff, or live a life and, and live a different life. And that's correct. So that is the reason why today I felt for all those skeletons that I, I don't think I've ever disclosed that publicly, just [00:31:30] so you know. But it's part of, it's part of my story. And as I say, storying. That's really important. Just one other, so my mahi is actually, I'm a researcher and my work is primarily in mental health, suicide, trauma based research, you know, the really ugly stuff that people, that we don't really like to talk about, which is another part of our collective story. And so that's kind of where I see my place in this world, [00:32:00] is making sure that our voices in those spaces are correctly. And, uh, on it. Yeah. Kia ora. Kia ora Lynn, who has just renamed the series, Eoho Confessions. Ladies and gentlemen, bring it on. This is what freedom and privilege allows us to do, is share, um, what those pioneers, have come for us. I [00:32:30] mean, who would have imagined in 1972, these words would have started this movement? Who out there is crazy enough to join me? Let's start gay liberation. Without further ado, I hand it over to you, Te Awe Kōtuku. E kura tō te ao, e nei te kura.[00:33:00] And, um. Kua mihi a ngā mihi, kua poroporo a kīngi a ngā poroporo a [00:33:30] kī. Hoia nō rā ki a koe, Nate, ngā mihi kauana mō tō hanga pakamoemiti ki ngā atua. Nō reira, ka mihi anō au ki a tātou katoa. Um, thank you to the National Library. And to these glorious women sitting at my side, ngā mihi kau ana ki a koutou. Kia koutou Tīwhanawhana, ngā mihi kau ana. Ah, kā pai, kā rāue kātoa. [00:34:00] Me tōku hoa, tū ngāne, tēnā koe. Kevin, ngā mihi kau ana. And to those of you out there, there are at least three who remember. 1970, 71, and the early days. And I actually think you should be up here with me. But then, he kōrero takatāpui tēnei. So we're talking now about our [00:34:30] experiences of that time. Um, most of you are probably aware of what happened when I won a fellowship to the USA in 1971. And around that time I was writing a lot and thinking a lot and, um, entangled in the sex, drugs, and rock and roll of the various activist movements of that time. So that Ngā Tamatoa was [00:35:00] conceived. Women's liberation was running hot, and of course, within that particular group, there was the fascination, the absolute erotic intrigue and sense of adventure with each other. And in the middle of all that, As a, um, young Māori raised in a relatively [00:35:30] traditional environment, um, I ended up in Auckland, and I was like that. I was camp. We Always looked for each other, but I was really conscious in the university context, I would never find one like myself. And so I ended up, and this is in the mid 60s, running with the Queens [00:36:00] and the Timber Girls and the women of that time. I fell in love with Natasha. And she loved me back. And I got into all sorts of very strange relationships. Situations, and as a result of that, as a writer, I was a compulsive writer, I recorded everything, and I'd noticed [00:36:30] stuff that was happening with my mates, and particularly, as a child growing up in a very tourist environment, with my uncles, with my uncles, with the men in the village, with various human beings, and Who impacted on my life in a really major way. Um, so I thought about why should we be [00:37:00] invisible? And being described as a stroppy show off, um, I wanted to make a noise about that. So I did. And, um, also though in those days, and this is something that people don't really think about now, because it's a totally different era, um, university study was funded. by government and all you had to do was [00:37:30] pass your exams and pass them well and then you got Your fees paid, and if you were extra good, you got a boarding allowance as well. And if you were a teacher's college student, you got a salary. Now this is another world, but it was the world of privilege in which we had the time and the energy. To get into political activism. We don't [00:38:00] have that now. The kids don't have that now, but we had it. So I think at that time too, we took the responsibility and we made a noise. And part of that was, um, applying for things like the USA Student Leader Grant, which I got, which I applied for and I got. And of course they found out I was the Maori girl writing all this absolutely scurrilous nonsense about being gay and proud and stuff, or actually [00:38:30] no. In, um, the beginning you saw on the screen, a paragraph from a, um, a piece I did for Crackham in July 1971, called Lesbianism, The Elegance of Unfettered Love. And it was a full two pages. A few months later, in, um, March, I interviewed Germaine Greer, and most of that was, [00:39:00] um, actually deleted. The printers wouldn't print it, but that's another story about Aotearoa and sexualities. Anyway, what I wanted to do today is just read you a story, rather than, um, talk about myself. And, it's a story that Um, came out, um, around the time I reprinted my book Tahiti. And [00:39:30] it's, um, I'll just read it, and it'll kind of, um, tell you about how I grew up, and who I grew up with, and where I grew up, and I didn't mark it, so I've got to fumble about sitting in the library, looking for a page, um, the name of the story, Is remembering them.[00:40:00] The last post floated over the water. Faint notes folding into the steam. Remembering them at dawn. Princess was supervising the cream cans. His real name was Pirirakon, but close relations. We called him Princess. Willowy, sleek, always fashionable. [00:40:30] Though this morning's outfit was more the working man. Gumboots, pressed jeans, and a bulky olive swan dry, hair smoothed down beneath its wood. Tiny sleepers twinkled in his earlobes. He examined the nine bottles of rum, six carubas, two plantations, a classic Captain Morgan. All donations, three for each can. The nephews, [00:41:00] Edu and Ra, heaped the large metal containers out of the concrete steam boxes and placed them on a low slat table in the kitchen. Their young arms bulged with effort, the liquid sloshed. The milk was scalding hot from 15 minutes in the thermal steam box. Perfect. Edu had the valves exactly set right. Princess, both hands wrapped in old tea towels, [00:41:30] carefully removed the first lid, then peeled the protective cloth off his fingers. Whiteness bubbled and hissed, then settled as he poured two bottles of bushels coffee and chicory with a swift precision. Eru, a sturdy youth, folded the mix with a long wooden paddle, breathing in the fierce fumes when his Auntie Uncle emptied the rum into the gaping [00:42:00] metal mouth and took the stirrer from him. Strong, bronze, sinewy hands blended the rich, aromatic liquid. They repeated the process two more times, refastening each lid. The cans were set together in a straight line, ready for the coffee pots and the small kettles. Ra had wandered off. Edu stayed and watched. Most days, she's my [00:42:30] auntie princess, but today he's my uncle, Pirirako. He whispered to himself, proud, doing the special coffee to warm the pickles up at the Anzac service after the PAH. It was still dark outside, heavy clouds hung close upon the surface of the Ruapeka, hiding the soldiers cemetery that hungered low in the shadows across the lagoon. [00:43:00] The activity had shifted in well disciplined and somber ranks to the marae. of Pata Te Huata. Tables outside, tables inside. Plates of crackers, cabin bread, cheese, trays of tiny bread, butter, gold and syrup. The big breakfast took place later at the cenotaph in town. This memorial was for the boys, for the ones who did not come [00:43:30] home in the 28th. This time it was for the pā to cry and to remember them. Light moved in thin lines of dawn through the vaporous dark, glimmered on male faces moist with memories. Around them moved the gentle bustle of wives, aunties, sisters, nieces, offering hot drinks, with or without, and princess. [00:44:00] Quiet smiles, a steady touch, a firm hand on a frail elbow. He positioned chairs and assisted the old in tottery. He found single gloves and donate tokotoko, woolly hats and lumpy knitted scarf. He was very busy. Uncle Tay was sitting alone at the end of a table, downing his third cup. He touched the fine bag, uh, the fine badge on the black [00:44:30] beret. He'd just, uh, finished rolling more smokes. He sat there. Tahuri knew all about him and he knew that each one of his wonderful medals told a special story. She wished she knew them all. She offered the crower another cup. He motioned her to sit and pass her the coffee pot to a niece working nearby. [00:45:00] He was watching Princess. The olive swandra had been removed to reveal a dark blue ribbed pullover with red and white stripes around the TV neck, or the v neck. He looked, it looked, very patriotic, and set off the scarlet poppy and its tiny white tag, matching the crisp shirt with one button undone at the collar. Shining patently, the [00:45:30] shoes had replaced the gumboots. Princess. Was enjoying herself, ordering the females about, issuing instructions, relishing his role as head waiter in training. He was in his second year at the elegant Waiweda House. Only five minutes walk from the Pa. He loved food. He loved people. He wanted to make them happy, to make them laugh. He [00:46:00] wanted them to need him. He flirted shamelessly with his aunties and his uncles. He worked at the younger boys and girls. He winked at them. He parted the glossy waves of hair down the middle and wing and smiled wickedly in all directions. He cocked a shapely eyebrow at Tahure. She cocked one back. Uncle Tei was watching him. [00:46:30] The old man seemed to be gazing behind Princess, peering into another place, another time. He looked slowly, thoughtfully, at Tahure. Eko, you know that boy, Pirirakal? I knew boys like him. Sissies, [00:47:00] we used to call them sissies. He paused, as Prince says, sauntered over to a nearby table, settled out more food and flicked the koro a rather saucy glance. Uncle Tei lowered his voice. You were lucky if you had one with you in your section or your platoon. They [00:47:30] were the best barbers. Woo, they did the neatest haircut, really good. Not short back and sides, oh no. But style, real style. And they were good field medics too. But niece, when everything around us was wrecked and mud, rubble, broken walls. Broken houses, broken roads, wrecked, blown up, everything falling down, trenches, [00:48:00] bomb craters, bullets flying, wrecked. They could find us a feed, anywhere, puha, wenoweno, nettles, beetroots, corn, turnips, vine leaves. One boy even scrunched us a lettuce, a lettuce. In the middle of the war they found it, kai. They found it, even on the hoof [00:48:30] or on the wing, they found it, and cook, ah, they could cook. Memories made him lick his dribbly chin, wipe the damp from his eyes. Concerned princess. Started hovering in the background. Marvelous they were. Tau kai. And niece. They could [00:49:00] fight. And they could kill. They had no fear of death. Or pain. They went straight in those sissies. No more bullets. Bayonets out. In they went. Those sissies always cleared the way, they had no fear. They were the real hero's girl, not us, [00:49:30] and most of them got left behind. He sighed, breath heavy, with grief. They never came back, I remember them. It was stories like that, and the ones that did come [00:50:00] back, and ended up in jail. That drove me into thinking about freedom for us. And even though I listen to my co panelists and think of how they perceive themselves as end users, [00:50:30] there is no end to this war. I think of Henare Te Ua. The Chloa, whom we all remember and revere, and the work he did, and in his biography, he said the fight will never end. Now, I don't want to be negative, but when we look around us, when we think about Roe versus Wade, [00:51:00] And how it took 50 years for them to flip that so easily. We must never take stuff for granted. So you're not end users. You're warriors, and the battle will continue. But now Because it's 22, 20, 22, we fight this battle with joy, because we have tasted that [00:51:30] freedom. We have enjoyed the privilege of civil union. We have changed our passports. We have been able to marry each other. And, um, so it's from, I think, a much stronger position. We continue the fight, [00:52:00] but until every one of us is safe. The fight will continue. I think of kids living in the rural areas in the regions and how vulnerable they are and is their only choice to come to the metropolitan cities. What future is there for them? Hoia nō rā, e te whānau, ngā [00:52:30] mihikau ana ki a koutou. Thank you. Kia ora, Te Ara Kōtuku. Thank you so much for reading that for us. I know we all feel privileged in this space to, one, hear you read to us, and then two, remind us that we are still in the movement, we are still fighting for our freedom in various ways. [00:53:00] Kivan. You've been really handsome on that screen up there. We'd love to hear from you now that we've done a round of the panel. Oh, kia ora. Tēnā ki a koe. Ngā huia. Really inspiring. You know, we talk about, uh, we follow in the footsteps of, of our, our leaders and they in turn inspire us to encourage other leaders. But I, I agree totally [00:53:30] with the, the, um, the fact. That this, uh, is a never ending, never ending, um, battle of recognition of who we are. And, and quite rightly so, uh, Ngā Hui are pointing out, some of those things that can change very, very quickly. And I'd just like to, to encourage our, our younger ones who, who are watching to, [00:54:00] you know, really get in there and, um, think about how to respond. To messages which look to isolate us, which look to, um, impose social conditions which are not our social conditions, which is not our social normalcy, um, that type of thing is what we have now, and it actually can be improved even more so, to be aware of it. [00:54:30] The complex intersections that we within rainbow communities and us as takatāpui in particular have challenges around, but I'm sure that there are, there are younger ones, really too, who are listening, who might be interested to also carry those battles through, because you're hearing it from, from, uh, from [00:55:00] people of lived experience, and you will have your experience, and you'll be able to translate that into what's needed now and what's needed going forward. In order to ensure that the world that we live in goes the right way, not the wrong way. Oh, a bit of a, bit of a kouhou there, eh? But I think I'll leave some for Cassie. She's, she's really good at this stuff. Kia ora, Cassie. I'm gonna just redirect our conversations. And it's about, um, [00:55:30] courage and freedom. So the question is to our panel. When you came out and took the stage. Owned your Sexuality in a public way. How did that feel and what was the thing that made you push out to stand up and say this is who I am? And yeah, how did that feel? Over to you, Cassie. I'd like to say that there was a moment when I was public out in the world and [00:56:00] everything was fantastic and I just felt so full of pride and joy and all these kinds of things but I, I don't know if I can think of that moment. Um, and What I mean by that is that homophobia and biphobia have been so, um, insidious. Within not just my life, but many lives, that there's always like this kind of thorn. There's always a something that is [00:56:30] there that has meant, um, that, that there is a feeling of shame ultimately around who you are. Now, how, how I've dealt with that. As I often don't get up and speak on panels about myself and my own experience around my sexuality and timea timea, I talk about the kaupapa, ne? I talk about the kaupapa because the kaupapa is actually kind of safe. The kaupapa keeps you Slightly distant from, from the [00:57:00] personal, because, you know, I was born in 1989, right? So I like the true baby here, let's just be real about when we use the word baby, we mean that. And, and so I grew up in a time that was probably. Inconceivably free and wonderful compared to many people in this room and on this panel. Even so, was still so entrenched [00:57:30] about how, how unnatural it was to feel as some of us feel. I remember one of the first times that I was cognizant of the word lesbian was in relation to a local high school teacher. And I didn't know anything. About, I don't even think I'd heard the word lesbian before. Nothing about it. It didn't seem like an event to me. It was like, oh, okay. Yeah, you know, this is how people feel [00:58:00] towards other people. But the reason I knew about this word is because it was associated with a local high school teacher who was known to be a lesbian and she was disgusting. Everyone knew how disgusting she was. It was the talk of town. It was constant. The main point of reference for the word lesbian was this, um, Specter of a woman who I don't even know the name of, I don't know the face of, I wouldn't know her if I met her in the street, but she was disgusting. That's all I knew. And you wouldn't want to [00:58:30] be like her, talked about by strangers who you've never gonna meet again. So, yeah, I'd like to say that. Everything was fantastic, and there were all these moments where everything felt prideful and amazing, but I don't know if I've ever felt that. I remember, um, I remember Kathleen will know this here because Kathleen's in the audience. Kathleen Winter directed a film that I was begrudgingly the subject of. [00:59:00] You know, she asked me, do you have any ideas about what, what a cool film would be? What stories need telling in this particular moment? And I was like, yeah, there needs to be more queer indigenous stories. Tell those. She's like, cool. So do you want to be the subject of my film? And I was like. Fuck you. Um, but I kind of had to put my money where my mouth was at that point and so um Was the center of a very short loading docks film and and it was horrifying [00:59:30] I had spent at till that point maybe eight to ten years Being openly queer, um, going into school assemblies and talking about queerness and sexuality and gender diversity to very, um, homophobic, unfriendly places, I'd been, um, You know, picking young people up off the pavement. Um, I'd been helping young people through all kinds of stuff, giving them homes when [01:00:00] they had nothing, getting off them off the street, getting them off drugs, whatever was going on, bandaging their wrists up. Um, and I've been doing that for years. And yet, when there was a moment for me to tell my story, it suddenly became hugely confronting about how that thorn had seeped so far into my psyche and into my heart and who I was. So poor Kathleen just had the worst time [01:00:30] of trying to even get me on a film because once the camera was on me, my sexuality, it just I just brought up so much stuff after the film was, um, released, I had to go back home and I had to be just around no one for a long time, because even though I knew how it was okay to be me and how it was okay to be us. You could still feel it, and you still knew it, and so, yeah, like, maybe that moment has never come. I know who I am. I stand [01:01:00] proud in who I am. I have no problem of any of that, and I will fight for the right, always, for anybody to be who they are, and I still do, but I just want to name that even the most, sometimes, out there people, Might still feel that thorn in them, that poison in them. And I'd like to think that one day on my deathbed, that will no longer exist. That poison is run clear. I'd like to think that. If it doesn't, you know, we still deserve to be free. We [01:01:30] still find the joy. We still get up every day. We still laugh. We still love the people that we dearly love. Um, and, and we still keep going. So that's just my whakaaro on that. Beautiful, we're all gonna um, log into TVNZ on demand and do loading docks. Um, Brave, thank you, uh, that ehi is coming through strong. Thank you so much for sharing, and over to you Lynne. 1989? [01:02:00] 1990 I was born. We went to the same school. I knew that teacher. Um, and that was Even though it may not have been the right year, that was pretty much, um, my first memory of lesbianism as well, was the teacher that everyone took the shit out of and, and spoke derogatorily about. Um, in, in that other life that I lived, I [01:02:30] probably didn't, I don't remember much about I think I'd just call it the privilege of not having to even consider who I was. Um, the first time I ever spoke publicly was in a church. Um, and the church was, it was a, a, like a, a collection of churches [01:03:00] that were coming together. And they wanted to know how they could be more compassionate to, uh, the rainbow community, and I had been asked to speak. So, I took the opportunity to, um, tell them that I didn't need any compassion, thank you very much. Um, but, that. It was the first time that I publicly kind of said, you know, Kia ora, my name's Lynn [01:03:30] and I'm a lesbian. Um, I remember being somewhat confronted by it because I kind of didn't think that there was a need to define anything, or particularly not myself. Um, And I've only ever been asked to go back to a church once. That's all. Um, well, I was born in the 1940s. [01:04:00] Um, so that's another. era. Though there are some of us in the room that share it. Um, and so there was no word for it in my community. It was like, your aunties are like that. Your uncles are like that. And so it was about being like that. You might be like that. [01:04:30] So, um, I didn't hear the L word until, um, Oh, well, you know, I was a great reader and constantly haunted the library and was a bit peculiar. Um, I would only go to the sports field to watch the other girls. Laughter And, um, anyway, I, um, I don't know, I grew up In Ohinumutu, in Rotorua, born and raised [01:05:00] there, and we all went bathing together, and Everybody was naked and lots of us went looking for the soap. And, and so there was stuff that was done that was called, and this is the boys as well, that was called mucking around. And sometimes you really like mucking around. But did it make you like that? And so there was [01:05:30] a whole realm of sexuality in our communities. And I'm saying Māori communities, Pacifica communities, where sex was never actually defined. It was like mucking around, you know, and, um, but there were a few of us that were definitely like that. And, um, most of us thought the anonymity [01:06:00] and the safety of the larger cities, um, the L word, the L word. Came into my life, um, and I think this is in, um, a book which was published, um, many years ago now about, um, the events in Christchurch and the killing of [01:06:30] someone's mother, and, um, I speak to the issue in that book, um, edited or put together by, um, Alison Laurie and Julie Glamisner, and Um, I ended up, aged 15, being driven home after a meeting, which was [01:07:00] extraordinary, um, with A, a personage later identified as Drac Holland, who was the superintendent of Ata Girls Prism, women's Prism. And she had come to UA to give a talk about the prism, and I found her completely extraordinary. In fact, I was fascinated, [01:07:30] and the teacher who had taken me to this talk was driving me home. Anyway, she stopped. And she talked about being like that, and she mentioned the Kashmir Hills case, and she said, and those girls were lesbians, and that's not good, and you have to [01:08:00] be careful. Well, it never dawned on me because I was like that, and it wasn't till I got to Auckland. That I realized what she had told me. Um, coming out publicly, uh, God, women's liberation. And, um, I did that article because I was so proud of the L word and there were only two of us who were out in the movement. [01:08:30] And, um, we were interviewed. A group of us, including Sue Kedgeley and Sharon Siedemann, and I had this mad woman as a lover at the time who had just come out of Arohata, there you go, and she was a working woman, and, um, in the television interview, she's standing behind me carrying the dog,[01:09:00] and we were asked, um, why we were members of Women's Liberation, um, And I said with great pride, and this is on national television, um, Saffic women. I couldn't quite say the L word, but Saffic women have been in the vanguard of women's rights for [01:09:30] centuries. And, um, the next day there was a luncheon called For the women leaders of Auckland and Connie Purdue and a couple of others came up to me and accused me of being completely irresponsible and saying I'd put the movement back 50 years. Well of course I bounced gaily down the road and really didn't give a damn [01:10:00] because I was like that. But what is interesting is that. Um, not much long, um, when we got Gay Liberation going, um, we did actually have a really interesting, um, gallery interview with Dereni Shanahan. And someone has recently excavated it. I'd really love to see it. Because there I was, showing off, talking about my being [01:10:30] like that. Proud, say the L word, and my poor mother ended up being bombarded with phone calls from people all over the park. In fact, the entire tribe. Well, not quite, but there was one person who stopped her in the street. Um, I will not name him, but he was a renowned and prominent orator and Composer [01:11:00] and community leader, and we knew he was like that, but it was a secret because he was married with a big family and quite a prominent local personality. He got my mother's side. And he said to her in Maori, I'm proud of our girl, tell her it's okay, tell her I told you I'm proud of her.[01:11:30] And so I saw mother and she immediately conveyed that to me and I said, yes, there's no stopping us now. And it's like, um, it's stuff like that, which really I think gives us the energy and the faith. And a sense of hope, and it's the sense of hope that we have to keep alive. Kia ora. [01:12:00] So beautiful. I'm aware we only have two minutes left on the clock, but I do want to give Kevin the opportunity to tell his story, because our session today is about gay liberation. Kevin, over to you. It's not a big story, but anyway, just to cut it short, I was born in 1960. I was born in Rotorua, actually, and my parents were teachers. Um, based at, uh, Rotoiti and Motukawa. Um, so my first memories were in [01:12:30] Rotorua. Um, I think I've always been like that. I remember, um, being attracted to, to, to males from a, from an early age. I also, um, was very Uh, conscious of how people talked about characteristics, you know. Um, if you're a sissy [01:13:00] or, uh, particularly because I was male. Um, you are sort of very aware of, of how, um, people in our community spoke or didn't speak, actually. And for me, uh, I was brought up in a Māori friendly and, and quite strong. Um, Māori whānau, but we all lived in [01:13:30] separate areas and of course that has an impact on the connection within whānau, but aside from that, I guess the story I wanted to talk about was I went to, um, I went to boarding school and so, you know, there were lots of, lots of, lots of, and it was a male boarding school, boys boarding school, And I think this, uh, I agree Nahuia, you know, mucking around was just what it was. Um, [01:14:00] exploring sexuality. It wasn't really until I got to about 15 or 16 or 17, where you had to start making choices, in my view, for me anyway, about are you going to be like that in public or not like that? Um, and so I'm a pre, um, homosexual law reform tangataapui, [01:14:30] and, you know, all of those things had an impact on, on me, um, in terms of the choices that I made, uh, to be, to actually not be out for quite a while. Coming out in public, I think, wasn't the important thing for me. It was coming out to my whānau that was most important. Uh, and, you know, it was the story of coming out to my whānau, actually, was because I was in a relationship that broke up, and [01:15:00] I needed support, and I was, you know, pretty devastated by that breakup. And this would have been when I was probably around 30, so Um, it was when I came out to my, my, my parents, and then my sisters, and then their husbands, and this all happened within a day or so, that, um, nothing then mattered, whether I was in public or not, but, um, that thorn that Cassie talks about has [01:15:30] always been in my side about that, um, uh, that, that little fear, that little fear of, of, of, Of being not treated, um, with respect about who I am and a respect of, of, of my sexual attraction and so forth. Yeah, so, for me, coming out, uh, to my family was, was the key turning point for me to then be able to [01:16:00] come out, uh, in public. And even then, I'm fairly shy. Really, and, and, uh, I've never really been one to, to, to, to be too forward with, um, revealing myself, uh, and sometimes I don't know what layers still, still are there in terms of revealing myself to, but, uh, that's a little bit of my story. I won't get killed.[01:16:30] Kia ora Kevin and thank you. Uh, we could go on for hours. I know we could. I know there are questions probably sitting in the webinar, but the iPad is locked and the time has come to an end. Um, on behalf of the National Library, I would like to give thanks to our panellists who have shared with us their story and their truth. And have reminded us that the fight still continues in every way. And that thorn, that's our privilege. And [01:17:00] we should use our privilege to uplift those who need it. Uh, so, thank you everybody for making time together today. Uh, for being here in spirit on the webinar. Thank you Kevin for locking in and being present. We're so grateful. Glad that you are able to join this event. Um, I'm just going to hand it over to our brother, Nate, who will close us in karakia. Oh, nā mihi, nā mihi e te whānau. Um, just very quickly before [01:17:30] saying this karakia, I'd just like to give some background. Um, it's called Heata. It talks about the time when the night and the day the night starts to fade in the days or the the sun starts to rise, which is a very special time of day. It reminds us every day that it's a new opportunity. So Quin. He ata, he ata ki runga, he [01:18:00] ata ki raro, he ata ki te whakatutu, he ata ki te whakaritorito, he ata whiwhia, he ata rauea, he ata taonga, he taonga. Tūturu whiti whakamaua, kia tēnā, tēnā. Hau e, hui e, tāiki e, kia ora.

IRN: 3510
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/welby_ings_on_punch.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004678
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093068
TITLE: Welby Ings on Punch
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Welby Ings
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; COVID-19 (coronavirus); COVID-19 lockdown; China; Civic Theatre; Conan Hayes; Embassy Theatre; HIV / AIDS; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Human Rights Act (1993); Jordan Oosterhof; Kevin Todd; Māori; New Zealand Film Commission; New Zealand International Film Festival; Ponsonby; Punch (film); Robin Murphy; Russia; Sparrow (film); Te Reo Māori; Tim Roth; Welby Ings; Wellington; activism; alcoholism; asthma; atheism; athletics; audience; banned; blessing; boxing; feature film; film; film festival; film making; first love; gay; gender fluid; homophobic violence; hope; hospice; hospital; love; loyalty; masculinity; police; queer bashing; rape; rural; sexual abuse; skies; smartphones; takatāpui
DATE: 6 August 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: Embassy Theatre, 10 Kent Terrace, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: February 2024
TEXT: So, my name's Welby Ings, um, I, But amongst them, I make films and, uh, I'm a professor of design and I write books and I've been an activist in, in, uh, queer politics and education reform. But, but this is about my feature film, Punch. And, uh, Basically, it's a film about masculinity in New Zealand. And it's a love story that has three parts to it. There's a relationship between a [00:00:30] father and a son. So it's a love relationship between a dad and a son. When the dad is an alcoholic and the son has become the father of the father. And then it's a relationship between that son and a young, or a young man the same age as him, who's takatāpui. So, uh, for non New Zealanders, that is, it kind of means a gay Māori man, but not in the same way that gay is meant in English. And, um, and then just very [00:01:00] tangentially, the relationship between that man and, and the boy's father. What's the relationship between Punch and your earlier short film Sparrow? Yeah, so Sparrow, you know, Sparrow way back I imagine doing a short, a film that started with a short film and then once the feature started you realise the short film was the backstory on the feature and it came from the old convention in New Zealand that you used to go to the cinema and see a short film before the feature and I [00:01:30] thought maybe you could play with that, but of course contemporary audiences are not used to that. So I made Sparrow basically to trial out some ideas, but Sparrow was based on a true story. And then as Sparrow found its feet, or flight, or whatever you would say, without mixed metaphors, it became a beast of its own, and I separated Punch, except every film I make, there are props from the film [00:02:00] before appear in the next film. So if you have a look at Punch, The, the large photograph that sits on the wall above the, above the fireplace in the father's house is the photograph from Punch, from, from Sparrow. And the wings, the children play in the same wings that the boy had in Sparrow. But that's just a personally obsessive thing I have of transferring some elements from a previous film into a new one. And some of the names are similar, aren't they? So like some of the characters names like [00:02:30] Stan and Jim. Yeah, so um, I, I, I tend to, um, I, I tend to use very simple names for, um, but. Uh, the boy's father is not named in Sparrow, because Sparrow doesn't, has, has almost no spoken speech, or has a little, little bit, um, but I, I kind of imagined that, that if the boy in Sparrow grew up, in fact, and became a [00:03:00] boxer, and became a brilliant boxer, and actually fulfilled his dad's dreams, what would happen the day he walked away from boxing? So conceptually, they are linked, that the, the father is a different actor in it, and, and, and the boy is different, but it's pushing it forward, uh, uh, a few decades, or no, a few years, but actually I had to make that a bigger push conceptually, because Sparrow was really set in the 60s, and this is right now, so it didn't [00:03:30] work if you look at it logically, but in my head I went. What would one story fold into another? And both stories, um, of, of, uh, we did an interview in 2018, and you were saying that the, the, the storyline was inspired by your late partner, Kevin Todd. That's, that's right. So this is, um, Punch is, it's very discernible. So Kevin grew up in a boxing family, and his, um, he was gifted. He was a gifted boxer, but he [00:04:00] He put it all aside to become an athlete and he won a scholarship to UCLA, but his dad never really forgave him. And his dad was a boxing coach, he trained all the boys in the family to be boxers. And Kevin had a, uh, a strained relationship with his dad. His dad and I didn't get on terribly well, I have to admit. But he wasn't a bad man, and that's why in the film I don't make Stan a bad man. He's just a man whose masculinity was shaped by a different [00:04:30] generation. The central issue in the film, uh, came from when, uh, so Kevin contracted, um, the, uh, AIDS. And he, um, he died in, uh, just into 1998. And he didn't want his dad to know. And his dad, um, his dad found him in the hospice on Jervois Road. And, uh, and by that stage Kevin was Very, [00:05:00] very weak and uh, so he couldn't close his eyes, so you didn't know if he was asleep or awake and, and his dad came and sat in the lounge with me and um, and the door was shut to Kevin's room and the, the woman who was the kind of, I guess you'd call a matron was, had came out and said, no, he won't see you. And his dad just sat there, this, this, this man out of time, I think, out of, out of time and, um, And you could see he was [00:05:30] lost, he was so lost, and um, Anyway, but he didn't leave, and in, in the end the, the, uh, nurse went back in, And she came out and she said, Kevin said you can come in but, well, we has to come in too. Which wasn't something that I was, uh, So what you can't hear on the, on the recording is my face suddenly blanched Because I remembered that that wasn't a good thing. And sat in and, and a thing happened and I actually touch on it in, in, in [00:06:00] Punch. Um, his dad sat by the bed and he just touched the sheet next to Kevin. And they never said anything to each other. And it was about, I guess about 20 minutes he sat there. And in the end he was crying and then he got up and walked away. And, um, it shouldn't happen. Between good men, that, that shouldn't happen. We're all flawed, you know, but, [00:06:30] and they actually, they loved each other, but they couldn't make that bridge. And I thought, what would it be to make a film where the love between a father and son has become a, a problem, and you understand them as both flawed. But you could leave it with hope. And I said to Kevin, You know, I could make a film about this. And he [00:07:00] said, You'll never make it because you don't climb up the arses of the film commission, I think was the term he used. Um, um, Because I'm not very good at sucking up. But actually, the film commission, it took 15 years, but they did fund this. And I, you know, and I'm very appreciative of that. But it took 15 years of struggle to get it there. And it was really only when Tim Roth came on, he'd seen the script, and loved the character of Stan. And he said, yes, I'll come out. And, [00:07:30] um, and then it was a film that was going to be made. So, um, but I, yeah, I said to him, You know, the, the relationship with your dad. There would be a way of telling a story where we would see all the depth and complexity of such a thing resolved. And fuck it, I made it. You know, and I'm, I'm so proud, I sometimes think he can, um, he can see that. When the, the [00:08:00] lights are down in the theatre and the emotion is moving with the film, I think he's there. I was recently at a funeral and somebody spoke about how people can give us life changing moments, particularly when they come into our lives but also when they leave our lives. And I'm wondering what kind of impact has Kevin had on your life? So the house I live in, I built for him. So it's a kind of tree house and, uh, still got his [00:08:30] plants. Fucking Dracenas live forever. You know, and they're so tough. Um, so, and that's 30 odd years ago now. Um, so my life didn't stop. It continued to flourish just as his had flourished. But AIDS was a shit of a pandemic. And although we live in COVID now, AIDS took people away under the umbrella of being a pariah, of being a [00:09:00] leper, a social leper. And we didn't have, well, we had, by the time he died, we did have law reform, but we were still just getting the human rights amendments in. And, you know, he was taken out. to the hospice because Ward B in the hospital, the nurses didn't have to, they could say that they didn't want to treat you on moral grounds. Fucking terrible, you know? And, uh, and he was a man of such strong dignity. I mean, he was, he [00:09:30] called a spade a spade, really bluntly. Um, and so I, um, I loved him. And I don't think that love dies. I think it's cumulative. And so, uh, although my life has gone on to do things, um, I, just like I love my dad who's died, you know, I just, uh, I, I was thinking the other day, how, how did, [00:10:00] someone had asked the question, answer, how did you keep going for 15 years getting rejections? And I thought, the true answer to that is that I wanted to honour love. And that can give you immense strength in a time of doubt. You mentioned actor Tim Roth coming out, playing Stan. Um, you've also got two lead, young lead [00:10:30] New Zealand actors. And is this the first time they've been in a feature film? Yes, I think, yes, yes it is. First time in a feature film. So, they've both done little bits of, of, like, Kentucky Friedad on TV or, um, some, some bits of television. But, uh, I was, it took three years to find those boys of auditioning. And, um, and they're interesting because both of them, so they are [00:11:00] very different. Jordan has, um, had had his agent talk about his speech because he has, he has asthma. He's a brilliant sportsman. And, uh, and many brilliant sports people I know, you know, um, live with asthma and they, and they, and they excel. And it gave his voice a particular sound. And so I just made him asthmatic in the film. I just changed the script. Because he was so physically present in that character. [00:11:30] And he crafted such a He, he crafted what I remember of Kevin. Like, Kevin loved Being fit. He loved it. And he would, there was such joy in the determination. And as an actor, that's what Jordan has. And so, I just, yep, I just adjusted the script to accommodate. And um, Conan, who acts the part of Whetu, so many, many young Māori men [00:12:00] auditioned, but when they found out what the script actually was, many of them stepped back. And that we still have a crisis of masculinity in New Zealand for our young men. We pretend we don't, but we actually do. And, um, and of course, although I always imagined Whetu as the strongest man in the film, he is gender fluid, I wouldn't, he's not gender non binary, because he identifies as takutapuitane, as a man. But [00:12:30] he, uh, fuck if anyone's going to tell him how you express that, you know. I recall back in that 2018 interview, you did say that the Fetu character was the truest person in the film. And in, but now, no, all three of them are true. They, I, I crafted them so they come, initially when you meet all of them, each of them, you don't really like them. Um, their, their flaw is in [00:13:00] front of you, or, um, or they don't connect with you. And so then I thought the craft was how do you build someone so that at the end you have hope with them. and then take them through a whole series of stumbles to do that. So it isn't a standard three act redemption narrative, and it actually doesn't redeem in the way that you would expect. But it's interesting when we did the, um, the last, so we're interviewing this in the foyer of [00:13:30] the, um, uh, the embassy. So this is the same theater where we did the, uh, test screening of it before I did the last, the, before I did the last edits. And I substantially changed it after that. And, but the interesting thing was even from there, the three adjectives that the crowd, 200 people came up with was somber, hopeful, beautiful. And that's right. That's what I wanted. I want it. It doesn't shy away from difficult stuff, but it is exceedingly beautiful. But in the end, [00:14:00] it shows you that it's, that it's worth believing and hope, but it doesn't end like a rom com. Why was it important for Fetu to identify as takatāpui rather than, say, gay? Because with takatāpui it's more than just sexual identity, you know? Yeah, so, so Fetu has a backstory that doesn't appear in the film because I stripped it away from him because I wanted him, I wanted to make gaps in the film so that people watching it would fill it in [00:14:30] later, so it would haunt. And one way of doing that is to remove Remove the answers to questions that people wouldn't immediately ask. But that they might wonder about later. So, there's no presence of Jim's mum. We don't know whatever happened to her. The script does have a presence there. It does explain what happened. But actually it was more powerful to have that removed. With Fetty, there was a backstory. You could see the family that he was living with. And, um, that it wasn't Uh, it [00:15:00] was, it wasn't where he was supposed to be in his world. And, uh, he only would speak in the original script. He would speak Maori to his father. His father was a, his stepfather was , couldn't understand, but Fitty would never speak to him in English. So it was, he was fucking toxic family relationship. But actually he has a line in the film which says, I go home when I have to. And that carries everything for every one of us who. Home was not safe and not good. We [00:15:30] often went to other places or we dreamed of other places and we came home to live in those, in the difficult places. And so that's, that's how I dealt with him. So he's more enigmatic, but absolutely present. To be out in a small town, a small town New Zealand, I mean, must take incredible courage and self confidence. Where do you think, particularly for Whetu, where do you think that comes from? That's a, I hate people who say that's a good question, but it's a good [00:16:00] question, fuck it. So, um, so I don't think it's just small towns. I think that cities have a complacent, um, ignorance of of homophobia that exists in them. It exists right in the center of towns, right in the center of cities. Um, I chose a small town because I love small towns, and I have a, uh, a close I don't like how they get munted and made into gimmicks, even though [00:16:30] Pirao can be a shit of a place in the film. But it also has Wonderful example of rural policing. Wonderful example of a Māori doctor who puts family before the individual. Those little things are all there, and those are what I remember of small towns. But, um, it's uh, um, The truth is, so when you look at the film, It's hard to put your finger on when it's happening. It could be 30 years ago, it could be 20, [00:17:00] it could be And then you realise from this, the mobile devices, it's right now. But it's timeless because those ideas are timeless and they still happen. So, trying to get our young adult men to report rape It's almost impossible in this country. And because the statistics aren't there, we create an illusion for ourselves that doesn't happen, just like we did with family violence years ago. So, more of our men will come forward now about being sexually abused as children, but [00:17:30] for an adult man to talk about being raped in a small town, that's an incredibly difficult line to cross, especially if you live in that town. And so, I wanted to, I wanted to tell that story. It's the only time I've ever seen in any film where queer bashing is actually dealt with for what it is. And so it's not being, having your arm broken or punched in the stomach. It's a sexual assault. And um, but [00:18:00] that could happen. I worked with one of my students just a few years ago who arrived into work having been queer bashed in Ponsonby. And I didn't recognize him. He was so bruised and so swollen. And, and all he said was, I fucking fought back and started crying. You watch Fetu fight in this film, he fucking fights back. And I, I think, we, we have, it's dealt with directly in the film. That [00:18:30] we have a veneer that we put over everything which goes, In New Zealand, it's, everything's fine, it's lovely. And it is, there are some lovely things here. Um, and we have come a long way. But not evenly for everybody. And, and the film doesn't go, uh, it's great everywhere else except manky small towns, it doesn't. Or, um, it's all really nice except, um, for, um, one or two [00:19:00] bad eggs, because you actually see a teacher in it who really thinks he's being liberal and kind. But actually for any gay man hearing the line that he delivers, you just go fuck off. So, but for all of that, it's still hopeful and celebratory of the fact that, you know, love endures and it triumphs even whether it's between a dad and son or two men. And, you know, our first, our first loves were all clunky. They were all [00:19:30] clunky. You know, if we can look back on them and go, oh shit. And it kind of does that. It just goes, in fact, the film without doing a spoiler on it is really. One man's tribute to first love, but his first love was with another man. And, and it was, you know, they're very formative in our lives. I don't think it has much to do with sexuality. It has to do with us coming to terms with what love actually is. It's a very powerful thing. It's not just playing. [00:20:00] Playing's easy, you know, or relatively easy. Love's hard, love's tougher, you know, and wonderful, of course. I was trying to think earlier today of all the queer feature length films produced in New Zealand. And I was struggling to be honest. I mean, like, how many, what are the queer feature films in New Zealand? So, actually, although people talk about that there is queer cinema in New [00:20:30] Zealand, What they often refer to as queer characters who have appeared in other films. So often we, we, uh, we take the role of a support character, or it's a documentary about somebody and the fact that they're queer, they appear in it. But when you go feature films that, that focus not on bisexuality, and not on child, a child coming of age through into their sexuality, but a serious in depth understanding of [00:21:00] Men who accept that they're gay, this would be the first. This would be the first that I can find, and we've looked. We've looked. That doesn't say that all those other contributions are really important, and this is only making another contribution to something that, you know, if you were interviewing someone in 20 years, we'd hope we'd go, there are eight of these. It's wonderful. I'm not trying to say that this is, that that makes this significant, other than. There is [00:21:30] a difference between being the token character on the fringe of a Disney animation, or a cardboard cut out gay character on a television soap, and characters whose relationship is central and the substance of a feature film in New Zealand. possibly just points to how hard it is to achieve what you've [00:22:00] achieved because I mean the stories are out there it's just it's a huge long slog like I mean you were saying 15 years of going to the funders. Absolutely and And, you know, one of the things you're dodging, and I guess it's, it's our, our people who come now, they will be dodging, is this awful tick box, virtue signalling thing going, well, we'll do one gay film, so will it be your one, you know, but what actually gets made is the ones that fit, that kind of tick the box beautifully, you know, whereas, [00:22:30] I mean, you imagine trying to make a film about a gay white supremacist in New Zealand. So, That would be a difficult film to get across the line. I'm sure they exist, and I'm sure I'm not interested in making that film. But, you know, we, our people are on the full spectrum of who New Zealanders are. And as we, when we are anxiously, as a nation, anxiously trying to tick boxes, we actually narrow the parameters down on what we [00:23:00] accept. So even in this film, I ran into I just have to say unsolicited advice from people about not including some of the stuff in it. Fuck it, it's there, you know. But it was, it was well meaning. But the question was, you know, would audiences, will it have wider appeal if you do that? And you go, but this is actually what he would say. This is what he would say. And they go, well, is it really necessary? And you go, yes, because this is what he would say. [00:23:30] And so I, I held to that. And that, that costs time, you know, and, but it's there, and I mean, we'll look back in 30 years and go well it was a story of its time. Of course it is, because every story is a story of its time. But maybe the things that actually will resonate will cross time. And those are the authenticity of relationships within it. And so it's worth pushing it against the grain to make sure that they get in there. Speaking of relationships, uh, you've teamed up again [00:24:00] with producer Robin Murphy, who is co producer in this, um, in this film. What's it like to, uh, build on those collaborations, uh, project after project? Robin and I are very different people. But I always remember when I couldn't find a producer for Sparrow, Robin came forward. And, um, so I'm a man who places great Respect on loyalty. I think it's an important thing. It's an [00:24:30] under, I think it's a misconsidered thing. And often times, um, not really held up as a deep value, but she came through and was prepared to support something. Very different kind of the kind of film she produces so she comes from the Murphys with Goodbye Pork Pie She comes from a comedy room and she she loves comedy So my stuff is about as far away from comedy as you can get. It's bloody poetic drama, you know but Robin she [00:25:00] One of the thing, one of the things that worked for us is that she didn't tell me how to direct my film and I didn't tell her how to produce it. So there was a mutual respect there. And one of the things that I always find difficult in directing film is when you get somebody else who, whether they are an actor or um, uh, A DOP or a producer who wants to direct the film and you go, no, I will respect what you do, and where those two things come together, let's talk but don't. Don't try and make my [00:25:30] film, and I won't try and do your part of it. And, um, and so we generally had a, have kept a, uh, a respectful, we've been respectful of each other's territory, and that's proved helpful. The production has happened, um, all the way through the COVID 19 pandemic. How has that affected, uh, well, life, I guess? Well, so, here's something people won't know. We were so [00:26:00] scared that this, this, this could easily have been derailed. If, if, if COVID had come in, we wouldn't have a film. We made a, a stab at a window believing it could be there. It was November, uh, October, November, December, in New Zealand where we had a little window. We shot the film the next layer up, so it was level two, so we shot at level three, and if it was level one, we'd shoot at level two. So we brought Tim Roth out. He was prepared to come to New Zealand, because at the moment it was [00:26:30] Trumpian America, and there were bushfires outside his house in California. And, um, but we were watching, because if, if it had have struck, We had no facility for saving the film. He would have to go back to America. We couldn't afford to bring him back out again. We had, um, our actors were, they had to isolate during the whole, so these are two 17 year old, well actually, a little older than 17, but in the film they're 17. No parties, no [00:27:00] going out. We had, if you got even slightly sick, you had to isolate. We had some crew. Sealed in their cars, working on their computers while we were on set. We, we put scenes together because we had to shoot in bubbles. The classroom scene, that's got two meter social distancing. People don't realize when they watch it, but it does. The boxing scene, we had to put in bubbles and edit together so it looks like a small crowd. It's a very dark room as a result. You know, [00:27:30] so we, we, we really, really struggled. And then, when it came time to, to um, Do the post production. We actually did the last special effect on the day that Auckland went into its lockdown. So, and here's the interesting thing. So, I'm what you'd call a lapsed atheist. I try to be an atheist, and sometimes I generally try to, but I've got gaps. It is a gap. So scared, I went to a mate [00:28:00] of mine, and I said, would you bless the film? And so we had a pōhiri at the beginning and Tim had literally just come out of his hotel room. We went to the marae and, uh, and Robert Pōhiri blessed the film. It was blessed. It was blessed. We, even to the things like, I am obsessively preoccupied with New Zealand's cloudy skies. So we had to do that between showers on a schedule [00:28:30] that was so tight. And we were ducking in and out. Under shelter and then rushing out and filming the sky just before, just while it was spitting and then coming, we were putting towels over the windscreens of, of cars. We were doing, but we got it. We got this amazing light that this country has. And it was like we were dodging bullets running across a field and we were looked after. And so I, I always look at the film as a kind of wonder. [00:29:00] That. It actually got made and it was, and we just took a gamble and then tried to be as strategic as we could within that. You've lived with this story for years, decades, and so you would know it completely intimately. What's it like for you now, now that it's been released, sitting in an audience and seeing and hearing the reaction of the audience who are seeing it for the first time? [00:29:30] So. Every audience is different with the film. When we had the premiere in Auckland, 2, 500 people showed up to that. It was sold out, you know. And amongst them, there were a lot of gay men, because there was a lot of laughter, at lines that nobody else had thought were funny. And it's not that they're funny, it's just that they go, you just go, that is so true. And so people were responding to it. And there's quite a bit of crying, you know, because it's, parts are difficult. [00:30:00] And there's a few winces when things happen, and you go, fuck. You know, the game end could see something was coming when other people couldn't. So you could feel your family in the cinema, in where there's a lot of your family. Um, the, it's, the film, when I watch it, is never the same any time through. It's never the same. And so, um, and I just accept that [00:30:30] that will be how it will always be because it speaks to different people in different ways, you know. And there will be, of course the film's banned. It's going to be banned in Russia. It will never be allowed to play in China. It'll never be able to play in a lot of African countries. So we know that, but I'm already used to that from the short films. But you still sort of go, you know, The audiences who will never be able to see it, or may see it smuggled in on some sharing platform, you know, so I [00:31:00] wonder about the absence of audiences who I'll never know, and that will never help me craft my next film, because I will never be embodied inside that place.

IRN: 3506
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hutt_valley_pride_living_in_colour_2022.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004677
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093067
TITLE: Hutt Valley Pride 2022 - Living in Colour
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Abi Buchhalter; Ana Nia; Awhina Wana; Boo Poi; Calum Bennachie; Cameron Kapua-Morrell; Compass Wilts-Ramsay; Kevin Haunui; Lilly Loudmouth; Louie Zalk-Neale; Michal Salter-Duke; Neo Kenny; Ngā Uri o Whiti Te Rā; Selena Pirika; Sevia Saviour Nua (Saviiey); Shelley Duffin; Tīwhanawhana; Yuval Zalk-Neale
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2020s; Abi Buchhalter; Ana Nia; Aotearoa New Zealand; Awhina Wana; Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Act 2021; Boo Poi; Burnett Foundation Aotearoa; COVID-19 (coronavirus); COVID-19 Delta variant; COVID-19 Omicron variant; COVID-19 face mask; COVID-19 lockdown; COVID-19 rapid antigen testing (RAT); COVID-19 vaccination; Callan James; Calum Bennachie; Cameron Kapua-Morrell; Christianity; Compass Wilts-Ramsay; Conversion Practices Prohibition Legislation Bill (2021); Dana de Milo; Doncaster (United Kingdom); Doncaster Pride; HPV; Hutt City Council; Hutt Valley Pride; InsideOUT Kōaro; Intersex medical interventions; Jen Dewsnap; Jo Millar; Kevin Haunui; Kōkiri Marae; Kōkiri Marae Hauora health; Lilly Loudmouth; Living in Colour - Pride (2022); Louie Zalk-Neale; Lower Hutt; MPox; MVPFAFF+; Matariki; Michal Salter-Duke; Mātauranga Māori; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; Naming New Zealand; Neo Kenny; New Zealand flag; Ngā Uri o Whiti Te Rā; Ngā Uri o Whiti Te Rā Mai Le Moana Trust; Ngāti Kahungunu; Ngāti Porou; Pacific; Paekākāriki; Paraparaumu; Rainbow Progress Pride flag; Rainbow flag; Selena Pirika; Sevia Saviour Nua (Saviiey); Shelley Duffin; Shift hui; Te Whatu Ora Health (public health); Te Ā ti Awa; Temple Sinai; Tino Rangatiratanga flag; Tīwhanawhana; Vibe (Lower and Upper Hutt); Yuval Zalk-Neale; Zoom (online video conferencing); binding; casual sex work; condoms; conversion practices; entertainment; family; food; gay liberation movement; hangi; intersex; kai; kapa haka; karanga; lube; mis-pronoun; normalisation surgery; pads; performance; period; period poverty; pray the gay away; pride; pronouns; queer straight alliance (QSA); rangatahi; saunas; school; sex work; sexual health; smoking; striptease; sugar baby; sugar daddy; takatāpui; tampon; tangata whenua; tax; transgender; vaping; visibility; waiata; webinar; whakawahine; whakawhanaungatanga; whanaungatanga; whānau
DATE: 30 July 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: Dowse Art Museum, 45 Laings Road, Hutt Central, Lower Hutt
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: February 2024
TEXT: Ko Hikurangi te maunga, ko Waiapu te awa, ko Ngati Porou te iwi, ko Cameron Kapoor Morrell ahau, he uria hau o rātou mā. Kei konei mātau ki te whare taonga o The Douse, ki rotu te awa Kairangi ki Tai. Ara ko te kaupapa o tēnei rangi, ara ko haka. Hutt Valley Pride, Living in Colour, our Hutt Valley Pride event. Nō We are here at the Dowse Art Museum in Lower Hutt, gathered especially for the occasion of celebrating Hutt Valley Pride. Our Hutt Valley [00:00:30] Pride event is called Living in Colour. So, how did you come up with the title? One of our organisers, the Te Ngākau Kahukoro o Te Awa Kairangi committee, decided to come up with a name for the event. It took a long time, but one day one of the rangatahi will be there.[00:01:00] So our name was, um, crafted by a collaboration between community members, local government, and community organizations that just came together out of the need to start a Pride event. So Living in Colour is about living in our authentic selves, being true to who you are, and being provided a platform such as Pride to be able to feel like you can be yourself. Can you tell me a wee bit about the history? How long has it been going on for? Uh,[00:01:30] 2020. Uh, so we started our in 2020. Um, it was in the, on the eve of Covid, um, oh, just after Covid actually. And so this is our second time doing pride. Nearly two years ago, that that first event was that, um, was that a physical event or was it online? Uh, we actually were able to do it in a time where COVID wasn't, [00:02:00] uh, we were safe enough to meet in person. And so we actually held it physically here in the Downtown. And so, um, describe the event for me. What's the event about? The event is about providing a platform for Rainbow Rangatahi and Te Hunga Takataapui, the Rainbow community here in the Hutt Valley and wider, to come, to share, to engage with many stakeholders from around the motu that provide not only social, Education but health services to our people and so it's an opportunity for them to engage with [00:02:30] them. Also we provide a platform, a literal platform for entertainment groups that live alongside the Heart Valley that also are allies or are members of our community to come in, demonstrate their excellence through entertainment. Can you describe the space today? Uh, the space is as it should be, which is an amalgamation of all the colours that exist on the spectrum, um, and it is reflective of all the people that we intend to capture with our event today. We wish for a inclusive, diverse event, and so we've chosen to dress the space, um, [00:03:00] in reflection of that. Literally, there's a stage, it's amazing. And we've got lights around it which sort of will highlight the people that are standing on it. We've got two specially made banners for, uh, from Hutt City Council for celebrating Pride. And on the other side, we've got, Mānawatia te hunga takatāpui. And the centre, we have My own pride flag, which is the biggest flag here. Um, and that one is the backdrop for the stage We also have the other stages that represent other members of our LGBTQ [00:03:30] community. We've also got a long What's it called red carpet, which will be used is the platform for our Rainbow Runway event that we have starting tonight. Um, so not only do whānau get to enjoy the entertainment and the festivities and the energy that that will bring, um, but there are the likes of our youth one stop shop, VIBE services are here. I'm sure you'll be able to connect with them a little bit later on. Um, we've got our friends from the Burnett Foundation who have gifted us with some resources to give out to the community, particularly safe sex. and safe sex education, um, guides [00:04:00] for our whānau. Um, we've also got, uh, a few of our other, um, local, uh, health providers, such as Te Awakairangi Health Network, who are here both as staff, and as to share some of the goodness and the kaupapa that they will get up to. We also have the Regional Stop Smoking Service, Tākiri Mai Te Ata Trust, which is a part of our Kokiri Marae Health Service. Um, and yeah, there's just many more people. But we've also got a whole lot of kai coming too. And it's all free, and it's all for our whānau. Um, and we've got, we've got hāngi, sushi, sandwiches, we've got, um, juice, [00:04:30] water, um, and just a whole lot of love and some fruit as well. See, it's got some fruit in there. We've got lollies hiding around here somewhere as well. Amazing. This event is also tied in with Maki. And I wonder, um, could you explain the significance of tying it to Maki? So, in the beginning we started this event, and it was around the Maki time of last year, which I believe was around the 17th to the 19th of July. That was, we're sort of just at the, we were still within the time that Maki appeared in our skies. Um, the importance for us was that [00:05:00] not only were we wanting recognition as the rainbow community and to. You know, we broadcast how special we are and how we deserve, uh, we deserve increased visibility and awareness of, um, stuff that is centric to us. Um, but also around the time that we're planning it for, Matariki just so happened to Um, appear before us. And so we thought what a better way than to merge Kahukura or the rainbow with that of the stars, both celestial things and both with [00:05:30] very strong meanings to us. And so we've used Matariki as a way to kickstart us off with the right energy. Um, cause Matariki is a time about reflection, looking back on the past and those who have gone before us. It's about celebration, looking at what we've done. Done so far, the year that has just gone by and it's about, um, future settings. So what do we want for the future? How are we gonna look after the generations to come? What are we doing for them in order to support them? And so this event and the themes of Tariq perfectly tied into one another. And [00:06:00] also the, um, members of the committee, uh, a majority of them are comprised of, majority of our committee is comprised of, uh, Tanga Maori ua. And so we thought, well. We have all of this richness and this depth of knowledge to share, so why don't we use not only Matariki as a way to supplement pride, but pride as a platform to talk about Matariki. And so, this brings us to our event. For people living in larger centres, so like Auckland, [00:06:30] Wellington, Christchurch, they have annual pride events. Why is it important for local pride events to happen? I really love that, that's a very beautiful question. The reason why this whole kaupapa started out here in the hut is because of that. Um, we noticed that all of the energy resources and Anything that is anything gets pulled towards our bigger cities and we know that us out here in the smaller parts of the country still have a lot to offer and so we thought instead of our kids and our [00:07:00] whanau having to travel into town to Celebrate something within their community, but away from where they live Why don't we start something right here in the heart of their community so that one they don't have to travel far to it's more reflective of who The Hutt Valley are and, um, and three, it was just a way for us to make something of us, like make a stamp on our world, um, as another it's, it's connected to, it's a, it's a bit. It's connected to this. Hutt City is a city of firsts. So, [00:07:30] um, and one of these firsts is, uh, we have the Tino Rangatiratanga, the New Zealand, and the pride flag now rising and flying above our council. And nowhere else in the country have I seen that. And so, um, that's a demonstration to the city that our council is behind us and our council serve us. And so we are sort of just wrapped up into this Big ball of energy to put our stamp on something, too. The council have made their declaration as [00:08:00] like a local government entity. This is our declaration as a community group. Yeah. Also, we've been supported by the council, so shoutouts to you all. That's why you got that little plug. So this has been running for a couple of years now. What has the feedback been from people that have been previously? Why can't we have more pride in the year? Why does it have to be just one day of the year? How come, um, Like, it's all well and good, we love this, that they really, the event is amazing for our whānau that come. Um, [00:08:30] but when they leave here, they wish for more of it outside of this space. And we agree, we agree, we think that pride shouldn't be just once in a year where everybody is visible. We believe that we should saturate the community with pride, so that our whānau are truly reflected everywhere around that they go. Not just in spaces that are created specifically for them. Other feedback has been, um, could it be longer? So that's why we go for five hours now, last year it was four. Um, which is going to be [00:09:00] tiring but amazing. Um, also, uh, whānau wanted, uh, to see if we could do one at the beginning of the year and one at the end of the year. A great way to start it and a great way to finish it, which is all well and good and amazing to think and to write about, but to do is somewhat hard. So the people that comprise our committee Um, although we belong to different places in the, uh, different organisations, different places, and we're connected by this common link, um, we all volunteer, so [00:09:30] we do this in our own time, so we're not being paid from our work to do this, this is all, um, money that we've gotten through funding applications and support from community to use venues and all of those sorts of things, and so. It's all volunteer run, so what we hope is that we can create a more sustainable way to keep it flowing so that this event just kickstarts naturally, and then we can start looking at making it bigger, making it wider, um, doing it in different places, getting, actually moving it into the community [00:10:00] more, um, as well as networking alongside our community partners and our local government partners so that that visibility that we crave for, that awareness that we started this kaupapa for, is actually achieved. Just finally, you've mentioned that it's your pride flag which is huge and it's amazing. What does it mean for you personally doing an event like this? Oh, I, so this whole day I've been in a constant state of overwhelm. Like, [00:10:30] I'm full of whelm and it is overflowing, that's why I'm sitting here trying to be quiet and just focus my energies, and because I'm so overwhelmed. This is so beautiful, ain't nothing could have been better, this is the most amazing thing. Thanks to our committee, our event coordinators, all of our people, um, this is just amazing. This to me is, uh, what I feel like as a young takatapui that grew up in Te Whārua o Waipiro. This is what I would have loved to have seen. I would have loved to have grown up to know that it was okay to be me. And so this [00:11:00] day is not just about us. Entertaining everyone, being excellent, and tying it in with Matariki, it's also a way for us to nurture those, the energy and the seeds of potential within our young people to let them know, no matter what you are, no matter what you look like, no matter how you identify, there is space for you, and we welcome you, and you are, oh my gosh, you look beautiful, we welcome you, and so, yeah, so, um, I just want whānau to know that, Every time, like, you know, like how, close your eyes and [00:11:30] imagine fireworks, you know, everybody's got this hype, oh my gosh, the fireworks are going to start, and when they finally explode in the sky, it's just this most amazing feeling. That's how I feel. I feel like fireworks are going off for me. Just to share something else, and you might love this. We have two flags here. One that was signed by all of the UK Pride organisers and sent over from Doncaster. They are celebrating Pride next weekend. Our CE at Hutt City Council, Jo Miller, has a very strong relationship with Jenny Dusnap, who is the, uh, lesbian, um, chair. They've also got a gay [00:12:00] chair and a trans chair. And they all signed this flag to send over for us in solidarity to be our international allies over in the UK. Um, they've gifted us a flag as well that was blank to go alongside it. For our committee to sign and everyone that was present and so today was the day that marked the history for our local government to support pride officially and being visible. But we also have international acts of friendship through the gifting of the flags. And so those are on display too for whānau to just ask questions about and wonder [00:12:30] whose names are those and stuff like that. Okay, so call Lily Loudmouth to her name, um, Uh, I am Lily of the Valley tonight, usually Lily Loudmouth. Um, I am a local girl and it's a pleasure to host this rainbow event in the hut, because we need to start getting some rainbow, some queerness in this part of Te Whanganui a Tara. What's going to happen tonight? You'll have to wait and see, Gareth. People are creaming the drawers in anticipation, aren't they?[00:13:00] No, tonight we've got, um, so basically, uh, it's all about getting the community together. Um, and we've got a range of shows tonight, so let me just unlock. So we're starting off with Tee Fana Fana to open up. Um, it's weird actually, there are always these functions opening up. I'll tell you, they're in demand in the community. Um, and then we have got, uh, Ngati Porou Ki Ponoki Ropu Kapa Haka Group. Uh, that's gonna be doing as a few waiters [00:13:30] and, um, uh, be entertainers with their talents. Um, and look, it's gonna be full of performers tonight. Um, I'm going to be hosting, um, as well as Cam's going to be hosting as well. Uh, we will be having a fashion show as well. So, uh, that's going to be exciting to see what they bring with their creativity. So, yeah, it's, there's a, there's a mixture. You know these events. Anything can happen. Um, anything extra can happen. I might throw a couple of numbers in there. I actually wanted to do a [00:14:00] number, uh, to honour Dana. Um, which I've also, I've done once before. So, you know, what's your space? Also what we've got, we've also got local, um, health providers that, that really engage with, um, with, uh, all manner of community members. Uh, but they're here obviously to support their services for the, who need it. Um, so we will be, you know, uh, exploring these. Uh, stalls as well. So, it's the first, it's the, it's the second year, and it's gonna get better and better [00:14:30] every year. I'm gonna get older and older every year. Oh, aren't we all? Well, maybe. Or maybe not. Um, speaking of creativity, can you describe what you're wearing? Well, I'm wearing tonight It's, um, Jacques Vert. La Croix. No, it's not. I'm wearing a rainbow y sort of sequin y dress. Um, with two corsets which I can't breathe. And I've got a, uh, like an ombre sort of green wig on. Uh, with dazzling jewellery to spark [00:15:00] attention and glittery lips. It works. Does it? Do I have your approval? You don't need my approval. I just, yeah, you know, behind this glitz and glamour there's a little bit of a loud mouth there, but you know it is four o'clock start, and you know Lily doesn't usually do light entertainment so I'm going to be on my best behaviour, but it's a pleasure to be here and it's going to be an amazing night, so watch your space. And Lily, why was it important for you to be here today? Uh, it's important for me because I am part [00:15:30] of, um, Ta'awa Kaerangi, uh, which is, uh, the Hutt Valley. Um, and I just think that, you know, to be part of this, uh, last year as well as this year, um, you know, it's, it's, it's quite honourable to be, to let them be, let me be part of it. And you know what, because I list my stomping ground, um, it means a lot more. Um, so, you know, the ahana is, is reeking out of my tight, I shouldn't really say that actually, Dal, sorry, out of my Daytime, [00:16:00] daytime shows. Sorry. Out of my jewellery, darling. So, yeah, it's, um, it's representing the Lower Hutt. Um, you know, you get big events in the city, and why not here? And it needs to start happening. And, because it's happening, Pride is happening, it's the only Pride that's happening in the country, I think, at this moment in time. Usually it's to go with Matariki as well, but, you know, this is the closest that they could get, so. It's about a celebration of all things. Yeah.[00:16:30] [00:17:00] Wai rea, wai [00:17:30] rea, wai rea ki runga, wai rea ki raro, wai rea ki a Ranginui e tui honei, wai rea ki a Papatūānuku e takoto ake nei, wai e rea ki te atatauira mai e, mai e. Mai e te tipua, mai e te tawhito, mai e [00:18:00] te kahui o ngāriki. Mai e tāwhiti atu ki ngā tua, e kakawatea. Kei runga, kei raro, arati hei, mauri ora! Whakataka te hau ki te uru, whakataka te hau ki te tonga. Kia mā kinakina ki uta, kia mā taratara ki tai. Hei hiake ana te atakura, he tio, he huka, he hauhu. Tihei, [00:18:30] mauri ora.[00:19:00] [00:19:30] [00:20:00] [00:20:30] [00:21:00] [00:21:30] Te atiawa, tēnā koutou. Douse Museum, tēnā koutou. Tēnā koutou Kahukuna ki te Awakairangi, tēnā koutou. Nei rā mātau a Te Whanakaranga e mihi atu ki a koutou katoa. Nō reira, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā tātou katoa. Kia ora everyone. So, it's great for us to be here to support this occasion. It's a really important occasion where we can all celebrate, bring [00:22:00] who we are, and all our sexuality, and all our gender diversity and expression, and all the way that we are individual in our sexual characteristics. Ngāi rā mātou, kua taonga mai nei, ki te tautoko te kaupapa. We're a, uh, a group, as you would have heard, uh, what's Lee's name? Lee. Lily. Sorry. We know Lily by a few names, um, and I was just [00:22:30] trying to remember the name today. Um, but anyway. Kia ora, Kia ora Lily. Yeah, but um He's my brother's name. But we just have a couple of waiata to sing and we hope you enjoy. Tēnā koe.[00:23:00] [00:23:30] [00:24:00] [00:24:30] He aka tō take, He nui tō take, He kōrero tāua e. Nā te mea e, Nā te mea e, He tāngata koe. Nā te mea e, Nā te mea e, [00:25:00] He tāngata koe.[00:25:30] [00:26:00] [00:26:30] Haere mai. Haere mai, Tupana. Tupana, Tupana. He kahukura i te rangi. Ke runga pōneke i te mona raukau lae. He kaupapa. He kaupapa lei. Me ara ake uenuku E ke Panuku, E ke Panuku, E ke Tangaroa, [00:27:00] Haramai te toki Haumi e, hui e, tae ki e E ke Panuku, E ke Panuku, E ke Tangaroa, Haramai te toki[00:27:30] Kia ora, my name's Celina Parika. So today we are in, um, we are at the Dow's Museum, and we are just watching people left, right and centre take their, take their time and, um, looking around. And it's a diverse, it's a diverse space and it's a diverse, um [00:28:00] It just seems like a really good buzz and a really good vibe. And you know so many people here. Um, I think it probably has to do a lot to do with the community, and the different spaces that I'm able to, like, be a part of, which is the Māori and Pacific Islands spaces and the Takatāpui spaces as well. You did a very powerful karanga, uh, at the start. Ah, yes, thank you. I appreciate that. [00:28:30] Um, I, um, what happened, what, in that process, we just, um, invite people to be in our space and to be, to be quite, um, um, safe while they're here. Um, and we also give them the opportunity to, um, to engage in Maori culture. Uh, we also allow them the opportunity to ask questions about te reo. Um, And about communicating in te reo and how do we best do that as a community and as a people. So that's basically what it was, just an [00:29:00] opening, opening of the gathering and acknowledging all those who are here today. Do you think there's a difference having, uh, localised events, say here in Lower Hutt, uh, versus, uh, you know, a larger event in Wellington? Um, I think all the, all the little local events. Um, they're all done so well. They're amazing. Um, and I, and I, I guess it comes back to contribution. Um, how are we able to contribute to, um, more engagement and more [00:29:30] understanding, um, from our community in particular to the greater wider world, to the, to our regions and to mostly to our cities. So, yeah, the difference, the difference here is that It's at a smaller scale, but it's all for the same reasons and for the same kaupapa. And it's absolutely packed with people. It is. Um, it is a great turnout. Um, there's, and we've only just started, so there's a [00:30:00] great turnout. We're waiting for the next lot of teams and performers to arrive and hopefully we can all enjoy that with some hangi. Why was it important for you to be here today? Uh, it's really important for me to be here, to be here amongst my peers and amongst my friends, but mostly amongst my whānau. Uh, I think it's um, it's really, really nice to see the um, up and coming generations come through within this community. And especially with um, being [00:30:30] able to link them into the different services around Hutt Valley, around Wellington, and the greater Wellington region. So, yeah, that's probably my reason for being here. So this year is the 50th anniversary of, um, gay liberation in New Zealand. We're still fighting on many different fronts for equality. What are the things that we still need to do? I think for, for us in particular, we will always go through the hard, through the hard yards of actually, um, [00:31:00] engaging with people and giving them the opportunity to engage with us. Um. I do hope that our trans people are able to, um, to be more, to be more included, um, and to be more aware of, um, their gifts that they have. Our Pacific Islander people, um, I do hope that within, within those Spaces that, um, there will be more and more evolving from those spaces of communication. [00:31:30] Um, my name is Cellis. Um, we are at the Pride event today. Um, we work at the regional stop smoking within Regional Stop Smoking Service. Today. We are here to promote our service to get. family that are ready to quit, wanting to quit. And, um, so we run [00:32:00] a six week program getting people to join our program. And we walk that journey with them that are wanting to quit down the front there. If people sign up to our program, um, they will go in the door for that down there. And those groceries, uh, they equal a 50 gram of tobacco. Plus, um, the papers, the lighter, and the filters. So, we just want to show them, this is what you can buy instead of having a 50 gram tobacco. That's a huge amount of food. [00:32:30] That is, it is a lot, eh? You know? Tobacco, you probably would be buying two. Tobacco is 140 just for the tobacco without the other stuff. And look what you can get for it. We show the kids this, we tell all the little ones, and then they'll bring their parents over. This is what we can get, mum or dad, yeah. Just to show them. Visual, eh? So why was it important to be here today? Um, just not only, you know, getting to, [00:33:00] getting out there to support our whānau who are obviously wanting to choose to quit, um, vaping or even in smoking too, but it's also to share awareness as well, what they're putting into our bodies. So over here is obviously the visual side of things of the ingredients within the tobacco. Down there is how much they could be saving and what they could be spending their money on. And it's also just supporting the kaupapa of Pride events, so all about diversity as well. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, we're a generic service. So we're out there to support everybody, not just [00:33:30] because we're a hau ora, doesn't mean we just work with Māori. We're generic service, everybody, anybody that's smoking or wanting to help, we will help them. So we're a couple of years now into the COVID 19 pandemic. How has that affected the people on your program? Um, obviously, so we are the face to face So we go around to people's houses. Some people may not even feel comfortable, of course, if they're, um, immune compromised, [00:34:00] immune compromised. Um, so yeah, that does put a bit of a strain on our service because we are the face to face support. Um, Um, since the COVID, we have lost a lot of, um, getting out there. The promotions, this is where we get all our referrals from, a lot of our referrals, is coming out into the communities, doing the health promos and all that. But since the COVID, we've been kind of locked down, you can't get out there and all that. So we're glad this is all on again, we [00:34:30] can get out there and start helping our whānau. Yeah, over COVID. I think we're all over COVID, but I think there are a whole lot of, um. stresses now, I mean, post the kind of lockdown with money and all of those kind of things. Are you seeing that with the people coming through? We see a lot of it. At Kōkiri we also provide a patakakai that's given to the community. Kind of because of the financial difficulties. A lot of it is stress. Yes, [00:35:00] they carry on what they're smoking So we provide the food and then they go out and buy their smoke So that's what we're trying to get them. Hey get this look at what you can get for yourself, you know Are there any um, like Takatāpui Rainbow specific programs? Not awesome yet, but Shelly, she's gone off to go and see, takes some whānau out to be vaccinated. She's the one that has sort of got us into all this. Yeah, and she's always promoting it at work. Shelly is wanting to open up clinics [00:35:30] at Kōkiri and our Ngāi Ngāi Hub so that whānau could come along. So for you both personally, what does it mean to you today to be here in this pride setting? Um, I, I love events like this. I think it's so important that the, um, Rainbow community is actually getting acknowledged and celebrated too. Um, I have many friends that are, you know, transgender. They are, you know, pride and they may be born a female, male, but they want to really You know, be become the [00:36:00] woman that they had always wanted to be. And I think it's now being normalized. And I think it's such a beautiful moment that places like this within Wellington, you know, um, yeah, it's a beautiful thing to be able to be here. Beautiful kaupapa, um, as well that we're able to be here and not just support our services, but, you know, being able to network as well with amongst other services within Wellington as well. Um, so no, I think it's about time. Absolutely. I have whānau, you know, of both. But it's really [00:36:30] exciting to be amongst this. I love it. It's really exciting. We don't see enough of it, really. This year is actually the 50th anniversary of gay liberation, so where there was a real push for kind of equality. What are some of the things that still need to happen, do you think, that need, you know, for everyone to be kind of equal in today's society? I think now Um, there's more kind of push for things that were just kind of shoved in the background regarding not yeah regarding the [00:37:00] rainbow community as well as you know, Māori Um, you know raru or problems that have you know, even with the decolonization kind of side of things Now, I, what I love is that all of these things that were kind of just put into the closet are now being able to be acknowledged, um, wrongs are being, you know, absolutely corrected and now that we're celebrating, um, within the rainbow community because back then, even I'm quite young. But, you know, a [00:37:30] lot of people were bullied for that kind of thing, you know. And they're able to be 100 percent them true selves. And I think that's the most beautiful thing about this kaupapa here. Cool, Charlotte. Yes, I really think it needs to be taken to the younger generation as well, for them to understand that it's okay. You know, I've, um, I've had a niece that, you know, went, and she was put down, even by the whānau. And I said, you know, It's her choice. We all just need to, she's still our whānau, just need to support her on her journey. Let her decide what she wants. So [00:38:00] I think some of it needs to go down to the younger generation, so that they can feel comfortable about coming, you know, and not having to hide in the bedroom and dress up and then, yeah, let them. Come down to the young ones too. Hit the rangatahi as well, because there is a lot of rangatahi out there that are wanting to come out. Mmm. Yeah. Hi, my name is Callum Bennehy, and um, I'm here with some of my colleagues from NZPC, the Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers Collective. And we're here just to show people, [00:38:30] um, what the collective is about, and show them some of the resources, the work that we do, and hopefully gain some more understanding from people. Now, very recently, within the last year or so, um, the collective has changed its name from what, uh, New Zealand Prostitutes Collective to the Sex Workers Collective. What, what prompted that change? Um, we've been looking at things around the globe and several, um, and several other organisations have asked us why we're still using the word [00:39:00] prostitutes because that's quite a stigmatising word. Um, so that's one of the reasons why we decided to go and to, um, Distinguish us from other sex worker collectors around the world. We have used Aotearoa New Zealand at the beginning of it. Uh, but this is only a, um, median step. There will be something coming later. We're a couple of years now into the COVID pandemic. And I'm wondering how has the pandemic affected, [00:39:30] um, the sex workers collective? Um, we have been quite busy doing resources for people who have had to change their streams of income from, um, full service to online or various other ways of working, yeah. So it's been quite busy for us and we've, a lot of the work we've been able to do from home. But, um, we're back in the offices now, and so the offices that we have got sexual health clinics in, like Auckland, Wellington [00:40:00] and Christchurch, um, that's, um, working quite well. And, um, the other offices in Taronga and Dunedin, they're also taking over as well, and they're seeing regular clients coming through, so, yeah. How do you think the, um, the pandemic's affected the collective members? Um, some have been hit quite hard, because they've always done Um, full service sex work and they've quite often, some of them have been out in the streets and it's very difficult to, um, wear a mask when you're [00:40:30] trying to attract customers, um, because of that. And there are other ways that it's affected people as well. As I said earlier, some have, uh, changed their stream of income. So they've changed from full service to some partial service, or they've gone on to online and cam works. And just recently, of course, we've had the, um, kind of increase in kind of monkey pox around the world. Is it having any kind of impact on, on the collective? No, not yet. [00:41:00] Um, people are aware that there's a vaccine available for it and that it's fairly easily treated. Looking at your stall today, could you just take me through some of the materials that you've got here? At the front, we've got some of the resources that we have and it's got, um, One for paying tax. We've got one for, um, sugar babies. We've got one for, um, the old business code of conduct. Uh, we've got, um, one for cam work. We've got one [00:41:30] for entertainers, so that's strippers and such like. Um, and we've got, um, because some people who have been doing full service have moved into doing, um, pole dancing and things like that. Um, and we've got, uh, sponges and We've got two lots of different sponges for people who have periods and, um, we've got a range of condoms and, including flavoured condoms, so, yeah. And some lubes as well, so lube is very important when you're using condoms so it doesn't [00:42:00] cause abrasions. Why was it important for the collective to be here today? Um, there are a large number of, um, queer Uh, people who are sex workers. Um, for a variety of reasons. Um, some it is pure choice and it's like, Yeah, cool. Better. I'm enjoying this. Things. Some it's a challenge. Can I do this? Is it something that. Because I've not done this sort of thing before. Maybe I'll try it.[00:42:30] And sometimes it's to affirm their sexuality and things. So you've got, um, younger gay men who are working, um, to find, make sure that they are gay. Um, and also, um, people who, for a variety of reasons, it might be the best of a limited choice. So it might be Five hours working as a sex worker may be far better than 30 hours working at McDonald's or Burger King or KFC or any of the fast food chains.[00:43:00] Do you think nowadays that actually there's a lot more kind of casual sex work going on rather than somebody, you know, doing it full time? Um. There is in a way, yes. That's one of the reasons why we've developed the Sugar Babes, uh, resource, because there's quite a few people now who are going on dates for cash. They're setting up an appointment with someone and saying, well, this is what I expect, that, and that person then will pay it, or maybe [00:43:30] not pay it, and things, or pay in cash when they see them. And, um, as a result of that, The dynamics between, um, sugar babying and all service full sex work is quite different because quite often it's a younger sex worker who hasn't had contact with NZPC because they don't recognize that what they are doing is a form of sex work. So they haven't been told about their rights and responsibilities and how to keep themselves [00:44:00] safe. So when the client says, oh, I've only got this much, is that okay? They'll say, oh, yeah, okay. And, um, the client says, I've put the money into your bank account. And they look at the bank account and it seems to Oh no, it's still coming through. And the, um, client then flicks in a text message that shows that the money's been done. But it's all Photoshop. So they're not aware of those sort of things going on, so yeah. This year is the 50th [00:44:30] anniversary of gay liberation in New Zealand, and I'm thinking we're still marching towards equality. What are the things that need to be fixed? There's still quite a few small things that need to be fixed. Um, We're fortunate to have had a bill passed last year that was, um, that outlawed, um, conversion therapy, because [00:45:00] that's been a major impediment for a lot of people. Um, a very good friend of mine was told when he came out, Well, if you don't go along to this group, you can't live at home. So he went along to the group and of course it was the one here in Lower Hutt that was, um, a conversion therapy group. And that mucked him up for a number of years and eventually he just told them to stuff out. He went to the gay sauna and he said, When I was there I saw you and you and you, so don't give me all [00:45:30] this crap about this stuff working. Stormed off. And there are other people who have had, um, serious damage done because of conversion therapy. Um, even very recently, with, uh, churches and that, claiming to pray the gay away, and all it does is put guilt upon the person who's trying to come out. So that was a very good outcome, getting that sort of thing outlawed. But there are some small things to go, and there's [00:46:00] also quite a lot to do in regards to transgender people as well, so I'm pleased that, um, on the banners and things they've got here. It's the Um, full pride flag with the trans colours and the Black Lives Matter colours and everything as well. So, that's good to see. So my name is Anania, we're down here [00:46:30] at the Pride event down at the DOWS, um, we're celebrating our diverse gender populations and it's just a celebration, it's for them to be who they are, um, perform, celebrate and just love life. And today you're here with? Um, Te Whatu Ora. Uh, Te Whanganui a Tara, which is public health. And why was it important for public health to be here today? Um, so, within our public health unit, we have a portfolio that focuses [00:47:00] solely on sexual health. And within that is our pride community. So we, uh, here so that We're inclusive, we're working together, we're not singling people out just because of their, their orientation, and it's just a really, um, yeah, just a whānau ora, uh, Aotearoa approach to, to our rainbow community and sexual health. I should just say that the, um, buzzer we're hearing, this is, there's a photo booth next door to us. That's, that's when photos go off. It's not somebody going, ah. [00:47:30] You've got, um, an amazing store here today. Could you tell me what, what's here? Yeah, absolutely. So, um, my role at Public Health is to flip the lens and look at it from a traditional Māori worldview. So, we have a wahakura here, which is, looks at our hapū māmā and making sure that they're safe and their babies are safe. So, prevent, preventing, uh, any unexpected deaths within infants. So that's why I bring out our wahakura. We also have awa underwear, which is around our period poverty work. So, reusables.[00:48:00] Um, also, there's also cups, um, and yeah, just to look at it not as a taboo subject, but as a very, you can talk about it. It's okay to talk about it. Um, what else do we have down here? We just have our normal pamphlets around HPV, uh, in men and women. Um, also, including in our little public health table, we have some toothbrushes, [00:48:30] um, some body washes around hygiene. Um, some, some pads and tampons, um, just to look at that whole, your full health. Your, it's not about singlizing things and looking at it from just sexual health and that's it. It's your, your hiningaro, which is your mental health, your physical, your spiritual, and your whānau. So that's a huge focus for my role at Public Health. You mentioned earlier about period poverty and is that, [00:49:00] is that a big issue? It is, it is. So our kids don't go to school because they have their period once a month. Um, they don't have the necessities to what everyone should have. Like it just should be everyone's right to this, our new tools in terms of pads, tampons and undies. Um, yeah, it's really, it's really disheartening to know that wahine, girls, can't go to school [00:49:30] because of their periods sometimes, yeah. What does it mean for you today, personally, to be here? Oh, it's just a, I just love to be a part of everything in our community, so to support our community who have led this project, so we were a part of the committee, but our community, it's always led by our community, so that's sort of really, really, um, Key for me as a worker in public health is that we let our community lead everything.[00:50:00] [00:50:30] [00:51:00] [00:51:30] [00:52:00] [00:52:30] So we ran a current organization called. Set my level of trust. And you've, you've just come off the stage. I mean, what an amazing performance. Oh, thank you. It's also, it's been lovely. Um, that's what we normally do with our kids back home. So we teach them through traditional art and provide positive youth development through the art forms of indigenous practices.[00:53:00] Why was it important for you to be here today? It's important to showcase our support in all shapes and forms and I think what makes it even more important for us to be in attendance is that we are one of the only organisations that focuses on MVPFAS plus communities, um, um, which is. The acronyms in the Pacific, um, so yeah, it's cool to work alongside our fellow Takatāpui communities as well as [00:53:30] our wider rainbow LGBTQIA plus queer. Um, communities in general. Yeah. Can you speak a wee bit about, um, the kind of terms we use to identify both culturally and kind of, uh, sexual and gender identities? It's so important, isn't it? Yeah, um, I think it is important, um, Differentiate the both of the two because obviously we do have our Pacifica terminologies that do sit well with us as, as Pacific, [00:54:00] um, as well as, uh, kupu, um, takatapui for our indigenous Maori peoples here of Aotearoa. And I think it just ties people in more closely to the cultural identity and finding themselves. And by using specific Language, rather than just rainbow. I mean, it's a lot more inclusive, yeah? Um, it is, and I think it's more, it kind of identifies that main. group of peoples. [00:54:30] Um, rainbows, um, obviously is the terminology for the for the whole or the katoa or for all, um, rainbow communities in general, whoever it may be. Um, but obviously MVP FAF plus um, belong to the Pacific and is what the Pacific know it to be as well as takatapui for our our indigenous Maori people. How have the last couple of years been with COVID for you and the group? [00:55:00] Um, I think everybody will have the same answers for this. Um, to be honest, because our organisation focuses on a wider range of rangatahi, um, Aotearoa whānau per se, so it's not only Predominantly our queer pacific communities or rainbow, um, communities that we only focus on. So we kind of focus on a wide range of, of young peoples. Um, so it's been a challenge, um, per se [00:55:30] for them mentally, um, accessing certain things, um, like medication per se. Um, as COVID's pretty much the predominant thing that's more important for majority of the health systems at the moment. Um, but it kind of, it's kind of cool to see that it coming to some type of normality. Hopefully, um, touch wood. Um, but yeah. It's actually, it's just so wonderful to, to have a, an event, you know, [00:56:00] like a physical event, face to face. I mean, online is nice, but actually physical events are amazing, aren't they? I think physical events, I think the warmth of somebody's body in person is more better than feeling, looking at, um, obviously a screen. Um, and it kind of just It means more when you're in person. Like, you know, you can feel somebody else's wairua, um, they can feel your wairua, and obviously it could make, it could change somebody's [00:56:30] life. Like, you know, there's heaps of things that could be, uh, that could help or assist somebody in making their day better. So, for you personally, um, what does it mean to be here today performing? Um, it means that we are here. We are queer. And we're here to stay. Um, and it's pretty much just to showcase who we are in case those of our community members that are out these ways who [00:57:00] actually live in Porirua know that there is some type of assistance in that side of the on that side of the hill, like, you know, um, but it's always good to promote pride and promote inclusion, and especially with our younger generations, as well as celebrating it with our whānau, like, you know, seeing a lot of families here, it's just, it's very heartwarming to see that we still have, um, family members that are inclusive of their kids being rainbow, um, [00:57:30] and it's massive. It's such a beautiful thing to see. And to have such a, um, kind of warm, fun event, you know, uh, I think these things, you know, the event happens, but the, the, um, residue from that event, the, the good feeling you have just carries on, doesn't it? It does. It will definitely carry on. And I feel like, um, You know, for the wider communities out there that are obviously sceptical of coming into spaces like these, obviously they would [00:58:00] never know unless they come in. Um, but I think from my perspective only, we are just normal, loving humans, the same as everybody else. So it's always good to have people come into our spaces and also educate them around what is appropriate, how do we address these sort of issues. And then we just work through them together, really. That's how we should be doing things. So, um, my name is Neo. I'm, uh, here [00:58:30] representing Inside Out Koaro, um, which is a rainbow charity that helps support rainbow young people. Um, and we have a lot of, uh, really good resources that we think could really be helpful, um, for so many different people, but especially our school related resources. Um, we also do some work, um, in the Hutt. Um, my friend and colleague, Compass, is here, who's our Wellington Schools coordinator, um, who works in the Hutt, um, along with the whole, um, to, uh, Wellington region. Can you just describe the scene in front of us? Because there are so many people here today. Yeah, [00:59:00] there's so many and it's so colourful and loud and everyone's having a great time. So there's heaps of stalls, there's some really good entertainment, there was, Te Whanau Whanau was here who are always amazing to hear and listen to. There's balloons, everyone's wearing a lei and it's very exciting and colourful. You mentioned just before, uh, resources. What kind of resources have you brought today? Yeah, um, so we have, um, most of our resources are focused on young people in schools and young rainbow people in schools. Um, we [00:59:30] have some around staff supporting, um, like rainbow diversity groups. We have some around starting and strengthening, um, diversity groups or like QSAs within schools. Um, we have some around, um, creating rainbow inclusive policies and processes in schools. Um, and just some, oh, one of our, uh, really, I think is one of our, um, really important resources is around, um, Christian schools and how they can be more rainbow friendly, um, to the young people that, uh, in those, in those schools. We're a couple of years into [01:00:00] the COVID pandemic. I wish it would end. But how has that affected what Inside Out has been able to do over the last couple of years? Yeah, so a lot of our schools coordinators really go into schools and work in person. Unfortunately, with COVID effects, that has had to stop every so often when COVID peaks and stuff. As well as that, like, sending out resources just wasn't possible when there was no one in the office. Um, but now that schools [01:00:30] are, um, you know, a little bit more open, um, we're able to go into schools, um, taking all of the, uh, precautions, of course, but yeah. It must have also offered some opportunities in terms of like, doing more online, doing webinars and Yeah, um, so we have our annual Shift Hui, which brings together, um, rainbow young people from all across the country and for one weekend, for like, training, or for, um, workshops and, um, you know, events and activities. Um, and usually that's in person. However, um, twice during the [01:01:00] pandemic, I think in 2019 and in 2022, um, they actually went online. Um, so we went digitally over Zoom and Discord, and that was really great because it meant that lots of young people who couldn't make it to the in person ones, usually, Um, for accessibility reasons or cost reasons, um, we're able to, you know, hang out, um, with, uh, people who are similar to them. Can you just describe how, or what the impact's been for young people with, with COVID 19? Maybe just, I mean, I don't know if there's been research done or anecdotal. [01:01:30] Yeah, I'm not, um, I don't have any research that's been done, but, um, I know that for a lot of young people. Um, a lot of rainbow young people, um, are being like, especially during lockdown were forced to stay with family who maybe weren't so supportive or didn't use the right name or pronouns. Um, and that's sort of, you know, um, been really unfortunate that we've seen young people have to, um, spend time with family who might not support them, um, and love them as who they are. I, I, I guess also, uh, I mean, um, things like school [01:02:00] closures, I mean, that just must be, I, I just can't imagine what that must be like. Yeah, yeah, um, definitely. I, yeah, I feel that school closures have been really hard for our young people, um, especially like QSAs within their schools. Often those are places where they can be, you know, express themselves fully, um, or a little bit more than they can. So, um, schools closing, um, around that must have been like taking away like a safe space for our rainbow young people. This year is the 50th anniversary of gay [01:02:30] liberation in New Zealand, and it's all very much about, you know, um, fighting for equality, but that fight isn't over. What are the things that still need to be done, do you think? Um, there's still a lot of stuff that needs to be done, especially in, um, healthcare is a really big problem that we see for a lot of our rainbow young people. Um, for our intersex whānau as well, um, trying to get, um, like make sure that they aren't being, um, having surgeries performed on, uh, especially infants without conformed consent is a real big problem, [01:03:00] um, as well as there's a lot of medical gatekeeping for our trans, um, young people. And trans people in general. Um, so that's definitely something that we are working towards, and there's been some really great, um, you know, advocacy for. Um, also with the Conversion Practices Bill going through, which is great, um, there's still some things that we'd really love to see improved in that bill, um, in the future. Um, as well as some other legal things, like, um, The BDMRR Act, um, doesn't really have any concessions for overseas born trans people or [01:03:30] rainbow, um, asylum seekers, so that's something that we definitely want to see changed as well. There have been some really big wins over the last couple of years, haven't there? Absolutely, yes, yes, yes. Um, we've come so far and there's still more to go, but it's totally, um, we love to see the changes that have come even in the last few years. It's going in the right direction. Yes, a hundred percent, yeah. Um, let's hope we keep going in that direction and keep forging new paths. So, um, my name is Louie. I'm from Ngāi Te Rangi. I grew up in [01:04:00] Hokitika, in the South Island. Um, and yeah, it's so nice. It's like it's such good vibes here, so colourful, and I didn't know there was so much colourful stuff in Te Awa Kai Rangi. It's really nice. This is my first time at this event, and it's just, I really love it. Oh, sorry, I'm Abby. I'm here at the vibe table, and yeah, it is a good vibe. I think it's, um, It's, it's really lovely to see so many rainbow young people [01:04:30] here with their families and just exploring the tables and hearing the music and everyone just seems so happy and yeah. That Kapa Haka group was amazing, eh? Yeah. They outshone our group. I think it's, it's, it's great. I think the real space of sort of inclusiveness and belonging is the strong vibe today. So I'm Yuvazal Kniel, married to Louis and Nathalie Hourai, which is the Jewish [01:05:00] community in Tefangonu Yatara, Temple Sinai. Um, with Abby. Abby's part of my group and we're going to run a service on Saturday. But, you know, the feeling here, like, it's really amazing to see all of the youth and the young people. It's, like, as me as a slightly older, uh, queer guy, it's like, to see them being free in this age and be able to celebrate stuff that I would never imagine for myself in this age is [01:05:30] amazing, and see them also with, like, a different, uh, Generations here, uh, coming together. It's like, yeah, everything that I want in my country to happen. It's happened in some ways, but I feel here it's, it's very free and, uh, and equal. So, yeah, it's great to see it. And you were saying you're with VIBE, Abby? Yes. Yes, VIBE is a youth one stop shop located in Lower and Upper Hutt. And basically we provide free confidential health care to [01:06:00] young people ages 10 to 25 in the hot valley and it's a really lovely place because we're very um gender affirming rainbow inclusive Um, and I think it's, it's a, it's a real safe space for rainbow young people and in the hot, which, yeah, I'm, I feel really honored and privileged to be a part of the team there. How's it going with this being the second or third year of the pandemic now? How's it, how's it going with young people? Young people are getting hit pretty [01:06:30] hard. Um, there's no way around it. I think I have young people in who. who feel more isolated because they're away from their peers. They're not in school. Um, you know, education's disrupted. Um, but at the same time, I think it's also, uh, I was mental health support for Shift TUI this year, um, which was held via Discord. And it was really lovely to see how young people connect with each other from afar. Um, and that was I mean, that was [01:07:00] just such an amazing experience because young people really are putting in the work, I guess, to create their own communities in the midst of climate crisis and pandemics and the general chaos of the world. It's really beautiful to see. And, uh, being very old, what, uh, Discord is? Ah, yes. Discord is an online server. Where people can, um, create groups and forums and things like that. Um, and just like build online [01:07:30] communities. Um, and it's generally like a pretty secure server as well. So young people like that because they're, you know, they want to know where their data's going and stuff like that. Um, but it's also really great because it's got video, no it doesn't, it doesn't have video capacity. Um, but people can share memes and form interest groups and things like that. Um, and it's just a really, yeah. Semi and old and so it is challenging for me to keep up with the technology, but young people love discord So I just got on board [01:08:00] and and and you both are part of Te Whanau Whanau. What was that like performing? At the start. Um, it was awesome. It was I think it was Yuval's first time performing with Te Whanau Whanau and our second time The Maki a year and a half ago, remember? But yeah, this is different. This is a different level. Yeah. This was really nice. And those are, because we practice every, every Monday at the um, NZPC, at the New Zealand Prostitutes Collective. And um, and it's [01:08:30] kind of a low key sort of kahaka group. Like we, I don't know. We don't, we are not, we don't do it like really hardcore like te style or anything . I think when you're saying low kids like that. That people like me who don't have the talent to remember all, everything, are able to participate. Yeah. Um, but it's high key by Kopapa, by the Kopapa and by the values that is embedded in us. Yeah. It's like the, the Kapa Haka isn't necessarily the main thing, it's [01:09:00] kind of more like the community. Yeah. Which is really nice. Yeah. They're all lovely people. And it's very like intergenerational as well. Yeah. And people like me who don't know always can go to the back so it's a safe place for us. But it's an amazing group because it really has kind of been there and supported so many events in Wellington for over 20 years. Yeah, I bet you've been recorded them like 100 times. Mainly on the floor. It's like, but this time I was standing, so the knees are giving out a wee bit. You need a [01:09:30] skateboard. Like to be in the room with, uh, Chanel, Rene, uh, uh, Diane, uh, and also all the others. I just don't want to, not to mention everyone, but. It's just an honor, like, you know, when you're going into a room and you feel, oh, I'm with people that are historic, and that in 40, 50 years, if I'm still alive, I will say, I actually know those people, like, it's like everything. [01:10:00] And like, also to be married to Louis, like, oh, Louis is a future queen, so that's cool. No pressure. So, thinking about the event today, what are, uh, give me three words which sum up for you the event. Uh, my three words, I would say, um, joyful, um, inclusive, [01:10:30] Yeah, and like, small, small community, which is nice. I feel like if, when this sort of thing happens in a bigger, in like a bigger city or something, then it feels a bit more impersonal, but it's like there's lots of familiar faces around and it's really cute. Yeah. That wasn't three words. But I don't know. Let's make some money. I enjoyed the event, which is more than three words, so I had fun. We had fun. Oh, that's three words? We had fun. Yes. Kampai. I [01:11:00] want to go and get some sushi now. Finish it. Hi, my name is Winter and I'm here with Naming New Zealand. We help trans and non binary youth through the legal procedure of changing their names and documentation. And we help fund. that, uh, that process. Has that process, um, got easier over the last couple of years? Yes, actually. It, um, it's [01:11:30] slated to get a lot easier in June, 2023 when it, when, uh, changing birth certificate, uh, gender markers will become, uh, by statutory declaration rather than going through the family court. So that will make it a lot easier. Also, it will be possible from June 2023 to have an X on the gender marker on the birth certificate rather than just N or F, which will be a lot more inclusive to non binary people. Both of those things have been a long time coming, haven't they? [01:12:00] Absolutely. It has taken a very, very long time, but we're all extremely happy that that has finally changed. So what was it like when the BDDMR bill was passed? What was the feeling like? Incredibly happy. I know personally from my own, uh, experience, I was really dreading going through the process of changing my, uh, a gender on my birth certificate, but then this came through and it was just like, oh, everything is going to [01:12:30] be so much easier for, for all of our clients. Can you describe the feeling of what it's like to be here today? It's really nice to see, uh, you know, LGBT culture and, um, you know, just have, it's really just a lovely feeling and having it all. Openly celebrated, and I guess just making it so accessible to the public. And can you describe the, uh, the amount of people, how [01:13:00] many people are here today do you think? A lot. It's pretty packed. Um, it's really nice to see how many people have turned up, especially for the performances. It's really heartwarming, eh? Absolutely. Absolutely. I really enjoy being here. So, um, this year is the 50th anniversary of gay liberation in New Zealand, but that's just one thing, you know, there's so much in terms of equality and what, and things to fight for. What are the big things that we need to change still? Societally, [01:13:30] I would like to see non binary gender identities especially becoming Less the butt of a joke, and understood that this is hardly a new thing, that non binary gender identities, uh, span across culture and time. And having, having it rec recognized that, you know, we've always been here, and we always will be, and that being trans, and gender, uh, gender diversity, [01:14:00] It's just a normal part of, uh, the human experience. Ko Charlie Duffin toko ingoa, um, and I'm a kaimahi for Kokiri Marae Hauora, where I'm the sexual and reproductive health educator and health promoter. Um, I've been, I'm part of the committee, uh, for this. event here at our Hutt Valley Pride event. Um, it started last year. My child is also part of the community, so I'm here to support that, um, and help other parents and [01:14:30] other caregivers around getting information out for our youth and stuff. Um, I have pamphlets here for caregivers. Um, to help them, I suppose, with their journey with their child that is Rainbow. Um, also I have information here for our caregivers to actually start conversations around sexual health with their, with their youth. As well as common questions from youth around sexual health. Through to, um, Brochures on where to get [01:15:00] free counselling, binder, um, information as well and binding tips, um, Takatāpui, um, booklets, um, common stories from our community, uh, and lots and lots of condoms. And free packs as well with, uh, little bits and pieces in them. Could you, could you describe the atmosphere today? Oh, just happy and joyous and just a lot of aroha. Um, yeah, it's so much fun at the moment, yes. And lots of people? Definitely, lots and lots. Hopefully [01:15:30] this will just get bigger and bigger. Um, I don't know if you knew about today, earlier on today we had the raising of the pride flag at our, um, Huxley Council. It was an amazing time. But yeah, it's just an amazing atmosphere to be at. What does it mean for you personally to be here today? Um, just, personally for me, it's just showing that everyone is the same. Everyone's the same, and no matter what their sexuality or gender, Um, everyone has the right to their own [01:16:00] lives and to be happy, and there's no harm in that, being your true self. And to have this here For our community, where we don't actually have a lot of organisations out here for our youth, have them bring some organisations out here for them to be able to, um, see faces to, get the information they need and the help that they might need to move further in their journey. It's awesome. Hopefully more and more of the organisations in the city will come out to this, um, event. Um, and that's one of my plans as well in the future. I'm Afina [01:16:30] Wana, I'm a registered nurse vaccinator with Kokiri Marae, and today we're here offering all of our immunisations from COVID, flu, MMR, HPV, right through our childhood IMS as well. Yeah. And what's the importance of actually going out into the community for vaccinations rather than having people come to you? Oh, it's just all about access, really. We know that it's not as easy for everyone to get to the medical centre or get to their GP clinics. So, we like to be Really involved in our communities. [01:17:00] Take it to them for them. You know, make it available and what works for them. It is our top priority. And how are the vaccinations going? Well, particularly like for Covid, we're two years into it now. How's that going? Oh, it's awesome. Actually, we've had a number of boosters given out today. Um, so we're really surprised actually with just the amount that we're getting. Um, there's still A few around. So, but all in all, being really, really good, [01:17:30] really, really successful. I think the vaccination. across the board for all the nation has been amazing. Yeah, big ups to all of our, um, vaccinators and our COVID centers out there. And yeah, just our health workforce in general is amazing. How has the last two years been for you? Well, we've had a COVID clinic over in Wainuiomata Marae that was really, really successful. We've had our camper vans running now for the whole of the duration of this year and just being able to go to those locations in the [01:18:00] community that we know, um, vaccination rates are quite low. Um, it's been really helpful. A lot more people are getting the education that they need really behind it. You know, yeah, it's been really, really good. Why do you think the vaccination rates were so low to begin with? I think a lot of, um, COVID fears. Um, just even around past experiences with vaccinations and just people not understanding getting all the information and education behind it. But [01:18:30] the cool thing is that we take it to them, we can have those, those difficult, um, Kōrero with our whānau, answer any questions, and then when they feel comfortable, we know they'll come back to us really, because we've given them that time, yeah. So on your stall, you've got um, a number of things, can you take me through what you've brought today? Yeah, cool, so we'll start over here with our name cards, so we're aware that a lot of our um, LGBTQA community, uh, go by different pronouns, [01:19:00] so we've just got a stack of cards here if they'd like to, um, Let us know what they prefer. Then we've got um, rat tests and masks available for everyone to take home. We have a huge supply so everyone's more than welcome to grab a few if they'd like. Then we've also got some information here about different vaccinations we're giving and our services at Kokiri Marae. Yeah. Can you describe what the um, feeling has been like here today? Oh, it's been awesome. We haven't had, like, [01:19:30] normally we take a security crew with us, but we didn't have one today. And we didn't need to, you know. It's been awesome. Everyone's been really keen to approach and vice versa. We're having a lot of good conversations. Yeah, it's awesome. It's really good. Hi, I'm Myshal Salterduke. We're at the Dowse Art Gallery in the Huts. Um, at the Living in, uh, Living in Colour Pride event for families, whanau, rainbow [01:20:00] people, LGBTQIA, um, for MVP people, for anyone who, um, just wants to come along and be part of the community. The atmosphere is really fantastic. There's a whole lot of, um, of whanau, there's young people. There's a lot of performers, um, we've got drag queens, we've got people from a whole range of different community groups, a lot of free [01:20:30] kai, um, free activities, face painting, and a lot of other, um, Sort of just fun activities for everyone. One of the stalls I saw had the pronoun cards, which I think we talked about at the Pai Kakariki Pride or vaccination event, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah, they're just for people who might have, um, a different name on their NHI record than the one they use day to day and it just makes it a little bit easier [01:21:00] to get their records looked up when accessing healthcare services. That vaccination event I think happened, was it November last year or was it the year before? Um, yeah, I think it was, it was last year in about, um, October or November. I can't remember exactly. Um, yeah, and that was a vaccination event out at Paikōkōriki for the rainbow community there because, um, Paikōkō has a sort of pretty large rainbow community for [01:21:30] such a small town and didn't already have a. vaccination, um, center. The closest one was in Para Para Umu. So thinking about that event and thinking going forward, um, how's the, how have the last couple of months or the last six months been for you? Um, things have definitely slowed down and I'm actually now no longer working for the DHB. Um, I had to, my contract finished and I had to, I didn't choose to, um, seek to get it because [01:22:00] things have just really quieted down in that space. And I think everyone, most people are sort of comfortable with the process of getting vaccinated now and of accessing healthcare. Um, so, uh, I'm, yeah, back trying to finish my PhD. So much has changed since then because I mean, then I think there was not, I mean, Omicron hadn't been talked about, there might have been a couple of cases of Delta, um, and look where we are now. Yeah, obviously there's, [01:22:30] um, a lot more COVID out in the community and, um, so it's still really important to be vigilant and wear masks and, um, you know, hand washing protocols and things like that. Um, But since there is such a wide vaccination uptake That reduces the severity if and when you do get COVID. I've managed to escape it so far. I know a lot of people have [01:23:00] had it and hopefully had fairly mild effects since vaccination rates are so high. Well, it's so nice with vaccination rates and mask use that we can actually have events like this. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And there is in fact a vaccination van out the front, um, doing vaccination for flu boosters for covid. Um, and I think a number of other vaccinations, um, I think they're doing, um, [01:23:30] HPV, human papillomavirus, I'm not 100 percent certain. I know that was planned, but I haven't, um, checked if that's gone ahead. How would you, how would you, um, wrap up today? What would, what would be the feeling that people would be taking away, do you think? I think just a, a really good sense of inclusion and the fact that, you know, rainbow people are part of every community. Um, and the [01:24:00] rainbow community as, as a whole is, can, you know, at its best is really, really inclusive of everyone from all sorts of different, um, backgrounds and different, um, areas. And hopefully everyone really feels included and a part of something special here. I'm Compass. I work for Inside Out as their Wellington Schools Coordinator. So we work with schools all across the country around rainbow competency [01:24:30] and rainbow advocacy. Um, and in front of me I can see a wonderful bustling Pride event, uh, with some live music as well. And so many people. Yeah, so many people. It's been really awesome. I was wondering how many people would get out on a Saturday afternoon. But it's just been like non stop people coming through and talking. And yeah, it's been really awesome. Is this the first time you've been to this event? This event, yes. Yeah, yeah. And so how would you describe it if you, if I said describe it in three words, what would [01:25:00] those words be? Oh, I'd say educational. I'd say connection and I'd say fun. Lots of fun. Yeah. And we so need fun, don't we? After two years of COVID. Exactly. Yeah. I feel like As well with COVID, it can be harder for community events and community to come together. So it's always really nice when we're able to do that. Um, and celebrate each other and just meet each other as well.[01:25:30] Um, I think as well connecting people to resources and organisations that are doing like the mahi in our communities. I think it's really important as well. I think the last time we talked was at the um, vaccination event at Waikato Riki, I think. Yes, it was. Yeah, which is it's so awesome seeing as well. They're doing vaccinations here. So you can get your COVID booster. I think they're doing flu shots as well, which is really cool. And I really love that that's sort of becoming a bit like embedded in our [01:26:00] rainbow events, I guess, in some kind of way. So it's very exciting. Yeah. So why is it important for for inside out to be here today? Um, I think for, uh, Rainbow and Takatāpui Rangitahi, um, showing that we're here for them, that we're here to support them. Uh, I think as well, us acting as sort of like a intermediary between, um, Rangitahi and their schools and like those systems, I think is really valuable. I think as well, just having [01:26:30] a presence at these, these events and showing our support for the mahi that other people are doing as well is super important. Um, yeah, just being present, being here, letting people know that we're here to support them if they need it or they want it. And providing resources, um, I don't know, to give them further education and connection as well. I think you touched on it before, just that kind of connectedness, um, which I don't, I don't think you really get online, do you? I mean, um, actually there's, there's something about a physical event. Yeah, [01:27:00] totally. I think online is really great to have it, you know, it can help us maintain those connections, especially with things like COVID where, um, you know, safety comes first, but I think there is something to be said about having these in person events and getting, like feeling the whanau ngatanga in the room. Uh, I think as well, we could see it just between all of these different organizations that are here. That, uh, not only do we all have relationships with one another, but Le Van Mahie, like, supports one another, and uplifts what we're all doing. Like, [01:27:30] we're all connected in that way as well. Uh, which I think is really awesome and important. I also got distracted by Lily. Yeah. Can you just, uh, describe what, um, Lily is wearing? It's amazing. Lily is wearing head to toe pink with frills, um, with a sort of lilac wig and a It's kind of like a frilly, what are those called, like, bedrobe or robe? I don't know. And it's simply stunning. [01:28:00] She just sort of has this aura, like people move around her as she walks. So Cam, we're coming to the end of the event. What's, what's the feeling been like today? Whānau first and whānau friendly and it's just been amazing. The amount of people, especially those that we intended to be here, are here and it's just amazing. You can look around and you don't only see a rainbow in colour in the dress of the whānau that are here, but also the ethnicities, the cultures [01:28:30] and just the types of people. It's just a big melting pot, which is what we wanted. It's amazing. And the performances have been amazing. They have been definitely amazing. What I love is that they've been MVP FFAF plus Cultured it's just rich and deep and our whanau from the deep Pacific as well as Aotearoa have been Promoting the greatness that exists within our communities and it's just amazing How would you sum up the today's event? Oh [01:29:00] If I was to say one word, it would be pride. I'm proud not only to see the amount of people here, but that, uh, that our babies are clearly in and amongst and woven into the event as well. And they're enjoying themselves, which is, it's just amazing. I can't wait for next year where we're really starting to think about how we can, uh, build upon this sort of stuff, this energy that we've got going on. Um, we're, we're, like I said before, um, Hutt City is a place of firsts and this is just one of the most amazing things.

IRN: 3767
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TITLE: Charles Allan Aberhart memorial - interviews
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Denis Aberhart; Gavin Young; Grant Robertson; Hugh Young; John Wooles; Kelly Hopkins; Lianne Dalziel; Lily McFarlane; Loren Aberhart; Maree Richards; Nicole Skews-Poole
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; 2020s; Andrew Kibblewhite; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland Pride Festival; Blenheim; Blenheim Musical Theatre; Charles Allan Aberhart; Christchurch; Criminal Records (Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences) Act 2018; Denis Aberhart; Dorian Society; Gavin Young; Grant Robertson; Grindr; Hagley Park; Hagley Park North; Homosexual Law Reform Society; Hugh Young; John Wooles; Kelly Hopkins; Lianne Dalziel; Lily McFarlane; Loren Aberhart; Maree Richards; Member of Parliament; Motueka; Nicole Skews-Poole; Oranga Tamariki - Ministry for Children; Peter Rule; Rainbow Wellbeing Legacy Fund; Rule Foundation; St John Ambulance of New Zealand; The Christchurch Foundation; The Press (Christchurch); Timaru; Wellington; acting; artist; arts; bullying; courts; crime; criminal history; criminal record; criminalisation; discrimination; equality; expungement; funding; gay; gay liberation movement; hate crime; history; homophobia; homophobic violence; imprisonment; indecent assault; injustice; jury trial; justice; legacy; magic; media; murder; performance; police; police records; prejudice; pride; prison; queer bashing; silence; social media; suicide; tapu; tapu lifting; unions; victimisation; whānau
DATE: 23 January 2024
YEAR: 2024
LOCATION: Hagley Park North, Christchurch
CONTEXT: Interviews with family members and people who attended the memorial event to honour Allan Aberhart, on the 60th anniversary of his killing in Hagley Park. The memorial itself, took place in Hagley Park on 23 January 2024 and can be heard here. A special thank you to the Rule Foundation for funding the recording of this significant event, and to the Aberhart whānau for allowing the memorial to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: January 2024
TEXT: So my name's Loren Aberhart. I'm the great niece of Charles Alan Abahart and we've been here today at a memorial event to commemorate his memory and to celebrate his life on the 60th anniversary of his death in Hagley Park. What has today meant for you? Today's been a really cathartic experience for the family. It's the first time that we've been to the site of his murder. Um, and for our family it was a story that was It's kept under wraps for many years and had a lot of [00:00:30] associated generational trauma with it. Um, and so I think today was a bit of a bookend to actually remember him as a person, to celebrate his life, and to acknowledge that his death left a huge legacy and a positive impact on the gay community. And when you see the amount of people that were there today, um, it was amazing. It had such a wonderful feeling to it, didn't it? As a family, we were just delighted by the amount of people that turned up. I didn't expect that at all. And it was just incredible to feel that [00:01:00] solidarity around the family, but also around the queer community. And All coming together and to have mana whenua there as well to release the tapu from the site. That was so meaningful, um, and I think that it's just going to continue to create awareness about the changes that still need to be made to support our queer community and being safe. So what are your memories of Alan? I never met Alan. Uh, I was born about 20 years after he passed. Uh, but I have a lot of memories of, um, his brothers [00:01:30] who were all really colorful characters, uh, and my grandfather, who was his brother as well. They were, um, Larger than life personalities. They all loved a good chat, a good tease. One of them was a magician, another one was really into his birds. They were just a really cool quirky group of brothers. How does the family talk about Alan? Uh, so as you heard today, the family talk about him with fond memories. I think that they absolutely adored, [00:02:00] uh, everything that he brought to the family. The colour, uh, his artistic side, his performances with the Blenheim Operatic Theatre. And they all talk about him just as a really kind and gentle person. That's one of the standout things for me today is that I was aware of his tragic death and the injustice after that, um, but I wasn't really aware of Alan as a person, and I think today it really has shown Alan as a person. I [00:02:30] think a big part for the family today was to show who he was and to show the deeply human and personal side to tragedies like that. That it's not just a miscarriage of justice. It's actually taken someone's life and really impacted an entire family and generations. We've missed a person in our lives because of the acts of those six people on that day. Alan's death has garnered over the decades quite a lot of media attention. How has the family [00:03:00] dealt with that? I think for the family, the media attention has been something that we've shied away from. We're naturally, uh, a little bit Private. And I think because there was trauma around, uh, his death and at the time, from what I understand, some of my great uncles, my uncles, my dad, they were teased and bullied because of their association with Alan. Um, and so really the family rhetoric [00:03:30] through many years was to just slightly hide from it all. So now I think we're ready. To be out in the open, uh, out of the closet, so to speak, and to openly say we're really proud of who Alan was as a person. We're proud of his legacy, and we want to be able to use his memory to continue to support the queer community. And I think one of the big moments around that was when, uh, his earlier criminal conviction was expunged. Can you [00:04:00] talk to me about that process? The expungement of Alan's conviction was something that was led by one of my cousins, Nicole. We didn't know that that was available, to be honest. And I think, um, because the family had quashed that, Um, the memory of his death, um, so deeply. I don't think any of us realised that he had a conviction to be honest. Um, or if we did, we didn't know it was a thing that could be done. Um, for him to have a clean slate and to put that [00:04:30] to rest is so meaningful. Um, for his memory. What he did was not a crime. His conviction of homosexuality was openly admitted to be consensual. He turned himself in. It would not be a crime. It is not a crime, but in this day and age it certainly wouldn't be. And so the overturning or the expungement of that conviction is really meaningful. If you had an opportunity to say something to Alan now, what would that be? I think [00:05:00] I would say, you deserve to live. Um, and I wish you had lived now, because you could have been the colourful character that you are, uh, and been yourself in this day and age. And I really hope that young men just like Alan now, are able to live their lives as colourfully as they like. Um, and just to thank him for, uh, leaving such a positive legacy on our society. So, uh, Grant [00:05:30] Robertson, uh, and we are standing in Hagley Park North, uh, today, uh, at the site of the Aberhart. And this is a very special day because it's the 60th anniversary of his death. Uh, we've just had, uh, a very emotional memorial, how, how, how did you feel about that? Yeah, it was a very emotional memorial, um. The family of Alan Abaha, you know, were the center of today, and that's exactly as it should be. And it was, you know, extremely emotional to hear how they really weren't able to [00:06:00] be part of grieving for him when he died. They didn't even know exactly what had happened to him for many of the family. And most of them had never been here. So hugely important, 60 years on, to acknowledge that. for the wider queer community to be able to be part of acknowledging Alan too and what happened to him, and what we hope for the future. And also the amazing work that your government and yourself have done with the expungement legislation. Yeah, I mean, I was approached by one of Alan's great nieces [00:06:30] in, uh, 2019, about. his conviction and, um, it was one of the first ones that we were able to take all the way through and have it, uh, removed. Um, his conviction particularly took very little analysis. It was for a consensual homosexual act, um, and so it was clearly within the boundary of the law that we passed. So that kind of, for me, began the ball rolling. I didn't know anything about Alan and it was obvious. Obviously, um, an amazing story and a very sad story and I've worked with Nicole, [00:07:00] um, his great niece for a few years now and great for them to be able to be here today too. How easy is it to get those expungements through because I imagine that there must be a lot of detail that's actually not on the records. That's right. So the Ministry of Justice, um, will look at each application, um, if there are good court records or good other records, it's easy. If there's not, then they have to do work. They also need to look at the particular conviction to ensure themselves that it fits within the definition that we put in the Act. Obviously, you know, for [00:07:30] people who were engaging in consensual homosexual acts, it's pretty clear. Sometimes there were other convictions that were associated with those, and so the Ministry of Justice look at that to see whether it fits the criteria. One of the things that quite shocked me today was, uh, when someone got up and talked about the, the kind of queer bashings that are still happening in Christchurch. I mean, it's, it's the reality of a lot of our rainbow community that there is still a lot of discrimination, there are still hate crimes, um, and yeah, awful to hear that that's still going on. And the very reason [00:08:00] why we need to acknowledge Alan and also commit ourselves to working into the future to create a safer, um, more inclusive environment and that's why it's great that the family are going to be working with the Christchurch Foundation and the Rule Foundation to, to get some support and some funding out there for, for those, um, groups that are still affected by these kinds of crimes. What do you think can be done about it? Well, I mean, it seems a bit of an age old kind of thing. It is and I, and I, you know, we used to talk about it. a lot about the fact that we had [00:08:30] the legislative agenda that we've had, um, to, you know, to right a lot of wrongs. But there's a, there's another agenda, which is, I guess, the attitudinal one, which you can never, Parliament can't make a law about. Um, it's about our communities standing together to be clear about what is and isn't acceptable and what is right and what is wrong. And so we have to call out these situations. We have to get the community behind it. Pleased to hear today that the focus the family want is around hate crimes because that's [00:09:00] actually gives us a chance to be able to expose this and, and bring the community together to oppose it. Dennis Abahat, um, uh, nephew of Alan Abahat. who lost his life here to, uh, an event, uh, 60 years ago today. Um, he was the oldest of my, of, uh, the fam five brothers that my father came from, the fam the Aberhart family, and lost his life here. And so we're here today [00:09:30] to, um, lift the tapu, and to have a blessing, and to launch, um, a foundation for, uh, the rainbow community. Um, And, uh, so the whanau got together to come to celebrate this, and we are really pleased that, um, he is being remembered, and, and there are good things that are coming out of his sacrifice, really. What has today meant for you? Well, it's meant that, probably that, um, very few [00:10:00] of us have ever come to this site. And, um, because 60 years ago we had to find out a lot of the information. through, uh, and we're still finding out information, but it meant the whanau got together, we've come to where Uncle Alan did lose his life, and then we've obviously all read the trial transcripts that, um, a big injustice was, uh, was, uh, served, and the fact that, um, we, uh, [00:10:30] but the things that have happened since then, so the things that happened and he's remembered for today. There's a change, but there's still things to be done, but that he's being brought forward when it comes to things to help the rainbow community and that's good for us. So we're, as a family, we're great and pleased that that's happening and it's a memory. A lot of people around the country know about Alan's Tragic killing and his life, but not [00:11:00] many people know about him personally. Do you have any personal reflections? Oh yeah, I was almost 11 when it happened and Uncle Alan was just a really good person. Kind, generous, caring, reserved. But he was multi talented too. He, uh, he was an actor. He was an actor for, uh, shows in Blenheim. Uh, good piano player, good singer, knew lots of magic tricks in St. John's. So he was very much involved in the community. [00:11:30] But He shared his talent and, um, he's probably the most reserved of the Abahat boys, but I always remember Uncle Alan as just being a real gentleman, always well presented, always well dressed, um, and if you were thinking of him that, you'd think kindness, you'd think uh, interest, uh, he would be engaged with you, that, uh, you know, he was interested in what you were doing. So I, that's the sort of thing, I remember him, and I'd say he's just a, He [00:12:00] was a bloody good bloke. What kind of age were you when you knew him? Oh, well I was almost 11 when he died. So we used to go and visit the family. We lived in Mataweka and they lived in Blenheim. And we used to go over and visit and have holidays there and stay there. And he'd come the other way. So that's the age sort of that I, um, remember him. But a lot I've found out. The events of here have obviously been subsequent to that, and reading court documents and things like that. But, [00:12:30] um, I just remember him as a really good uncle. So, so nowadays, um, being part of the rainbow community is probably a lot more open than what it was back in the 60s. Back in the 60s, did anyone ever discuss, you know, like gayness or homosexuality? No, not really. And, uh, uh, dad never talked about it, never talked about the fact that it was used against him at his, at his trial. And, uh, the fact that he had spent time in jail. Um. which he wouldn't do today, [00:13:00] um, so that's a massive change, but not really talked about. So, uh, and probably not really aware of it, but, um, 60 years is a long time ago and thankfully a lot of changes since then still work to be done, but thankfully a lot of changes occurred since then. In Alan's case, uh, the youths were acquitted. How do you, as a family, make Peace with that, if, if you do. Well, not really, because it doesn't make any sense. Because [00:13:30] no family members went to the court case. Um, so there's a lot of unanswered questions, but when you admit it, when you say you did it, and you get off, and, uh, when you read some of the things that were said about Uncle Alan, and they used his character, and the youngsters of the youth, you think How did that, if that wasn't brought up, it was a jury trial, and um, they were acquitted. Doesn't make any sense. And it will never make any sense. We can just [00:14:00] assume that other elements came into the decisions. How is Alan seen now within the family? Oh, he's just the same. Uncle Alan, um, of course we need to make sure that the next generation are aware of him. But, he doesn't change. Uncle Alan was a good bloke. What's your favourite memory of him? I think that just, you know, being there and him involving himself in family events and things, just that, um, [00:14:30] It's not so much a memory, but a memory is, but as a person, he was, he was just there and supportive and those things. That's what I remember of him. I'm Leanne Dalzell. I am the former Mayor of Christchurch but, uh, for, prior to that I was a Member of Parliament and have been involved in, uh, many of the law reform activities around, um, uh, the rainbow community and, uh, although I wasn't in Parliament at the time of [00:15:00] homosexual law reform, uh, I was a, a young the activists within the union movement, and I remember one of my very first public speeches, uh, was advocating, uh, on behalf of our union for, uh, homosexual law reform. So my interest goes back a long way, and today has been about acknowledging that Through the history of time, many people who [00:15:30] come from the rainbow community have experienced not just discrimination and prejudice, but actually have had their lives taken and to come here to this place on this day, uh, to recognize that and to commit to ensuring that others are able to live safe and inclusive lives, I think that's, um, that's a good thing to do. It was very moving today, uh, for seeing the family here for the very first time. [00:16:00] Yeah, I spoke to, uh, um, one of the One of Alan's nephews, and, uh, he said, well, he spoke, obviously, in his, in his talk about It was the first time that he'd been here and he lives here in Christchurch and has for many, many years. And, uh, I think there is something about coming to a place like this with a, uh, a wider group of the community and, um, supporting the [00:16:30] family, uh, as we then all support each other. How do you think Alan has changed New Zealand society? Well, I think that it's a story that needs to be told. Uh, we heard the family, uh, didn't know about, uh, what had happened. That, why he'd had died, uh, what, you know, what had occurred. They knew none of the, the history, um, that, that [00:17:00] lay behind it. And I think that's common in many families around New Zealand. There will be people in their family tree who will be exactly the same. They will have, a story somewhere in the past that has been hidden. And I think what Alan's legacy is, is that it enables people to speak openly and freely about these things in order to ensure that they don't happen again. We've been in Hagley Park at the memorial service or commemoration of [00:17:30] the death of Alan Abahat, who was the man that was killed in Hagley Park in 1964 by six youths and, um, at the trial of those youths where they had all but admitted, uh, the, uh, killing, um, the jury found them not guilty. So it was always regarded as a gross injustice. Um, and it's always been an issue for the, for the gay rights movement or. the homosexual rights movement over [00:18:00] those years, uh, because it was just such an injustice and, and it's never really been righted. I've heard that it was one of the catalysts for gay liberation. Is that correct? Um, well, the, the first organisation, the political organisation, was Homosexual Law Reform Society, which formed in 1967. Um, The research that I've been doing, um, suggests that that wasn't the case. It was a, it was an egregious case, which, [00:18:30] um, the, uh, certainly was an issue, but it wasn't the catalyst for the formation. There were a lot of other things going on, um, as well. Can you describe, uh, the feeling from today's memorial? Um, it was a really moving service. Um, the family had come together and they spoke, um, many publicly for the first time. Um, some had never been to the site. Um, the, the, the commemoration was held on [00:19:00] the site where he was killed. And, um, some had never been there before. Um, but they spoke very movingly about Alan as a person, which is, which is what we need because all we hear about is all of the, you know, the, the nasty things that happened to him, but also the way he was presented as a, as a pervert and a convicted pervert because he'd been, uh, to prison, um, and he really needs to be presented as a person and he was. Yes, [00:19:30] that was fascinating to hear from, from the family about descriptions of Alan, because I, as you say, I'd only heard of the, uh, his tragic death and not actually who he was as a person. Yeah. Yeah. And, and that came across very much from the family. And I think, I think that's, that's where we need to go, um, with. With the story about Alan, we need to remember that he was a person and he, you know, he had a life to live and that was taken, um, and the, the young men that got off have [00:20:00] gone on and lived their lives with no consequences and that was the injustice. And for me, one of the biggest shocks, uh, at the memorial today was hearing that those queer bashings are still happening in, in Christchurch. Yes, and that's, um, that in itself is a tragedy. Um, and what they were saying, uh, the person that spoke had been beaten up. And that is different these days because it was all streamed, uh, online. And that's, [00:20:30] that's absolutely disgusting. But it also, um, means that the perpetrators can be more easily identified, I suppose. But even so, um, it's, it's disgusting that that is still happening. And just finally, how has Alan and what happened to Alan impacted on your life? When I first joined Gay Liberation in the 1970s, um, this was a case that I heard about. So it was, you know, [00:21:00] like 10 years or more after his death, um, it was still, um, a, an egregious case that the movement, you know, um, was, was, You know, still very, very aware of. So, it was, it was a motivating force for the movement and what happened to try and put that right. And a lot of, a lot of things have happened and we certainly live in a better society, but it's not perfect. And as you say, there [00:21:30] are still gay bashings going on and, you know, that's got to be stopped. I'm Kelly Hopkins and I'm here today at the memorial for Alan Everhart, who was, um, brutally murdered in Hagley Park in 1964. Can you describe what the feeling at the event was like? I think the feeling at the event was, um, one full of love. It was an event, um, to honor the memory of Alan. [00:22:00] Um, it was an opportunity, I think, for his whanau to gather and for, for, for members of the rainbow community and others to, to gather at the spot where, um, this horrific crime occurred, um, that cost Alan his life, but, um, led to some really important reforms in New Zealand, uh, that, um, made life better and easier for future generations of, of rainbow community. At the event you spoke, and you spoke about some queer [00:22:30] bashings that, that happened last year. I mean, how did it make you feel hearing something that had happened to Alan 60 years ago was still happening today? I became really aware of Alan's case through what happened to me last year in April. Um, and, um, I was one victim in many. There was an ongoing and sustained campaign of. Um, hate crimes that occurred across three [00:23:00] months last year, perpetrated by young, under 18 youth offenders. Um, I, today, attending the memorial for Alan, I, I really felt for Alan. Um, I feel, um, a real kinship with him, in that I could, standing in the spot where he lost his life, Um, and just imagining those last few minutes, because I experienced something very similar last year myself, um, when I was attacked in the [00:23:30] dark in a park by, between six and eight, um, men clothed in black who had set out deliberately to do that. Um, and it's, it's, it's still quite raw, it's quite emotional. Uh, it brings up a lot of feelings for me. Um, one of which is, I feel a responsibility to, to keep. The public awareness that these things are still happening. They didn't stop happening in 1964, they didn't stop happening in 1984. And in [00:24:00] fact, you know, with social media these days, and with the, the kind of society that we live in, and with all of the things that are going on inside young people's brains, and the messages they're receiving, and what's on social media for them, um, there's a lot of, of, of hatred and anger, um, and victimization happening out there. So, I think it's really important that we, we remember Alan, and we remember that he, he lost his life, but that it can also happen today, [00:24:30] and it still does happen today. Um, so for me, it was really important to be here and, um, to, to take that time to remember. In Alan's case, um, the youths came to Hagley Park specifically to belt up some queers, I think the, the, the quote was, in, in your case and the cases from last year, how were, how were they, how was that going down? Um, so there was a, a, a group of, um, [00:25:00] youths, youth offenders, who gathered and actually used Grindr. To chat with and lure, deliberately, uh, their victims to various parks around Christchurch so that they could beat them. Um, they were very planned. Um, they were very violent. Um, some cases spent hours chatting with their victims to lure them to come, um, and to [00:25:30] be harmed. Um, these weren't cases of somebody being in the wrong place at the wrong time, somebody looking at somebody the wrong way in a bar. These were places where the perpetrators deliberately set out time and time and time again to hurt and harm gay men. So, some of these cases have, have, have they gone before the courts? These cases are still going through the court. Due to the ages of the offenders, [00:26:00] um, they are going through the youth court. The youth court process is quite protracted. Um, the offenders are highly protected. And the victims, for victims it almost feels like you're being re victimized again and again and again as you go through this process. And the process is still nowhere near ended and it's almost a year since these crimes were committed. Um, we know who committed the crimes. Um, but the, the length of the process is in, uh, [00:26:30] deciding what would be an appropriate outcome for those perpetrators. They obviously need help. The, the, the, the generous part of me does want to say that yes, they do need help. Um, they do need help, but I do not think that that outweighs the help that their victims need. And I do not think that that outweighs the help that the Rainbow community still requires. And I do not believe that it excuses their deliberate, [00:27:00] pre planned, violent attacks. Yeah, and I should put a rider on that. I mean, they need help, but actually they also need to be held accountable. Yes, um, the extent of, um, the injuries and the trauma that was inflicted on them, uh, inflicted by them on, by, on multiple victims, some of whom are still unknown, and some of whom still haven't come forward, is It's, um, unbelievable and I can't talk about [00:27:30] the details of the crimes. What I can say is that for a number of minutes, in my personal experience, I believed I was going to die. I was physically very violently assaulted and I couldn't even see who my assaulters were. They ran at me out of the dark, all dressed in black. So, um, They do need, they do need to face consequences for what's happened, and I think even for the victims out there who maybe haven't come forward, haven't felt that they can, [00:28:00] Um, that maybe some of them will hopefully see this process play out, and that, um, that, you know, the, the court will feel empowered and responsible for, for handing down, um, some sentences that really represent and, and address the seriousness of these crimes. Um, and that these people will, even though they're not able to maybe come forward and participate in the process, that they'll see that justice is done. Can you speak to [00:28:30] what the after effects have been for you? Uh, for me personally, I think, um, The after effects have been huge and, um, currently, um, I'm not working. Um, I've, I've had, uh, at this point, ten months where it feels like the assault is just ongoing and ongoing. Um, and this is due to, like, a lot of factors. Uh, when I first reported this assault to the police, um, a statement was taken and I was told, well, we'll put it in the system [00:29:00] but we're not going to do anything to follow it up because you've given us nothing to go on. Still sounds very 1964, doesn't it? Um, I went back to work, and, um, it wasn't until several weeks later that the police contacted me to ask for a formal statement because some, um, other things had occurred, and they were now looking at this. That began a really long process because there are multiple offenders involved, really hard to identify them. [00:29:30] It's hard for the police It's social media. But every time a new offender is identified and charged there's a process, there's a family justice process with Oranga Tamariki involved. So you know as a victim we're Required to sit in front of and across from these violent offenders, um, and share [00:30:00] with them how successful they were in harming us, you know? Um, these are young people who, from what I can see, don't feel any remorse, they're not remorseful about their actions, um, and have to go through that over and over and over again, um, You know, there were times when every day there was a call from the police, or the court, or Rangatamariki, or some statement I had to prepare, or some, some offender that I had to face. Um, and the system has actually made me feel like I am still [00:30:30] being assaulted, nine months later, you know. So, um, I think it's really, really been, it's been massive. I think, um, you know, I'm lucky I lived and, and hopefully the rest of these victims in Christchurch now did, and, and Alan was not so lucky to walk away with his life. Um, but what it has inspired me to, to, to realize is that these, people expect us to stay silent. We're conditioned to stay silent as gay men. People spit [00:31:00] on us in the street. They call us. It's all kinds of names. There's always a threat that you're going to get beaten up. And so, for myself, you know, I've always tried to stay as quiet and invisible as possible in public. Um. And they, they rely on us staying silent and invisible. And I'm not going to do that anymore. Because, doing so is what allows these, these offenders to get away with it, what encourages them to do it even more. And if the victims don't speak up, especially in this [00:31:30] case that's currently happening in Christchurch, and there's no face of the victims, then it's just another victimless crime. Um, and then, so I really want the courts to be aware, I really want the parents of these offenders to be aware, I really want the public to be aware that actually, you know, the, the, the teenager next door coming for a family barbecue, or the guy that's on the sports team with your son, could be out there committing these crimes. Um, they're, they're, [00:32:00] they're young people in, you know, in society and it's not always who you expect it will be either. So I want everybody to be really aware that it's out there and it's happening, um, and you know, we get told, oh, well, these are good kids. They are not good kids and they're not good people. And we really need to push to ensure that they get, um, the right consequences for their actions because their actions were severe. I'm Nicole Skews Poole and today we are at Hagley Park in [00:32:30] Christchurch. And we've been at a very special memorial this morning. Tell me about that. Um, today was the culmination of a huge amount of work from the Aberhart whānau. They, um, worked with Mana Whenua to have a tapu lifting ceremony and, uh, launch the intention for a memorial fund in the name of Alan Aberhart, um, who, this time 60 years ago, was murdered here in a gay hate crime. And what's your relationship with Alan? I'm a [00:33:00] distant relative. In 2017, under the Homosexual Convictions Repeal Act, I applied, um, through the Ministry of Justice to have Ellen posthumously expunged of a conviction, um, um, That he was imprisoned for and recently released from prison when he was murdered, um, and we know that the, um, the conviction wouldn't have stood up in today's laws, um, and so through that expungement process, uh, his name was cleared [00:33:30] and his, his criminal record was cleared. Why was it important for you in particular to do that? I think that injustice was just so huge and it was a series of. injustices that Alan experienced. And I think I had the really strong sense that, um, the outcome of the trial of the young men that murdered him might have been different if it hadn't have been kind of common knowledge that he was a criminal that had [00:34:00] recently been in prison. I think that contributed to an overall sense that perhaps his life and his memory wasn't as important as the outcome. potential bright futures of the young men who set out that night to Beat the crap out of someone and killed them. Um, and I think for me, um, it was good timing in that when I sort of found out about Alan and that I was distantly related to him, I was aware that the Convictions Repeal Act had recently come into [00:34:30] operation and I knew that that was an avenue to go down and so I basically showed up at Grant Robertson's office and just continued to annoy him for the next few years. So, take me through the process. What was the process of, of doing the expungement? So, um, I needed to apply, um, I needed to make an application to be an applicant, if that makes any sense. Love a bit of bureaucracy. Um, so if the person who was convicted had died, they wanted to know, like, you know, okay, so then who are you [00:35:00] applying for and why? And, and, and they, I had to draw a family tree for the Ministry of Justice and they deemed me, um, appropriate to act as Alan's advocate and, um, then they go and look at the court records because they used such kind of strange terminology so I think it was indecent assault that he was convicted for and so they need to find out whether that was the sort of conviction that would hold up in today's court, um, and [00:35:30] unfortunately in the case of Alan's trial the court. Reporting was there, but the court documents were not, and so they weren't able to really easily identify straight away that it was, uh, not an indecent assault, but through court reporting, they were able to find out that the, um, other person, I guess, in the, um, In this story was an adult man who had consented, uh, and that, um, Alan had actually had the [00:36:00] opportunity to deny his involvement and had said, uh, nope, this happened, um, was incredibly brave and I found out today from family members that actually he might have proactively gone to the police station when he found out that they were asking around about that stuff and said, yep, I did this, um, and I think he, you know, he knew, he did that. Knowing that he could have denied it really easily and perhaps not gone to jail. Um, and that is what the Ministry of Justice team used to inform their, um, decision making around would this hold up in court [00:36:30] today. So, eventually they got to the point, um, where they went, okay, no, this was consensual between two adult men, um, it was something that he, uh, That, that was reported on at the time, even if we can't find the documents, and so we're pretty confident that this would not stand up and, um, therefore we can grant him an expungement. And so they wrote, uh, Justice Andrew Kibble White wrote a letter that basically said this was our process, this is what we did, um, and now you can kind of [00:37:00] confidently say that Alan has absolutely no criminal record whatsoever. And, and that happened, sorry, in, in, um, 2019. I think it took, it was a couple of years. That process. Yeah. That's a huge journey. And that's potentially bringing up a whole lot of, um, feelings that the family had kept inside for decades. How, how was the family through that process? Were, were they support for what, what, what, how, how did the family cope with all of that? I think it [00:37:30] was hard, but I think, um, from that point on to where we are now today, where they're launching the intention for a family, you know, um, a family run fund or a family sort of supported fund, I think, um, there's been a huge amount of open heartedness and healing and that's been, um, really beautiful to be a small part of and to sort of just watch that Closer family, um, you know, family that were closer to Alan, um, sort of be here today and the massive, [00:38:00] um, walk that they've been on together is just, um, I'm in awe of them. Yeah. And that, that sense of healing was evident today. Uh, I mean, when the family were talking and saying that they, they hadn't been to Hagley Park in all this time. Yeah, it's pretty huge actually. And I think, um, I think that's. And, um, I'm both happy and sad. It's sad to hear that that was the case, but happy that they're there now, or they were here now. Yeah. If you [00:38:30] had a chance to say something to Alan now, what would that be? Um, that I'm proud to be his ancestor in both blood and in the queer community, that I'm really proud of him. That I know on some level he was proud to, actually. And that I'm sorry that it took his [00:39:00] loss of life for so much change to have occurred. But that, in his name, so much positive change and agitation and struggle came forth. And that every queer person has benefited from that ever since. My name is Hugh Young, and we've been at a memorial service to Alan Aberhart, who was murdered here 60 years ago today. [00:39:30] And 60 years ago today, I was riding my bike through Hagley Park to go to work as a student in the railways, and I was stopped by the police. Uh, and couldn't go through the park because something had happened there. And I didn't learn probably till the afternoon or even later, would, would be, there were two papers there and it was the star sun in the afternoon. It's probably how we learnt that a man [00:40:00] had been murdered here. And so over the next few weeks, the trial happened of these six youths and they were acquitted. And Liberal Christchurch was shocked that they were acquitted. And there was an article in the press, uh, the editorial in the press said, uh, we hope that the jury was not swayed by this man's character. And um, you have the rest of the story about the [00:40:30] Dorian Society's, um, uh, Homosexual Law Reform Committee, but Oh, no, tell me about that, Hugh. Oh, Lordy. Um, well, the Dorian Society, uh, in Wellington formed a Homosexual Law Reform Committee, which became the Wolfenden Committee, which became the Homosexual Law Reform Society. And so, this murder, um, it really was the, uh, the, the, the, um, [00:41:00] the snowball, the beginning of the snowball, that became Homosexual Law Reform. But, in 1967, No, I can't be sure of the year, but my mother was a foundation member of the Christchurch Homosexual Law Reform Society, and at the, uh, inaugural meeting, somebody rhetorically said, well, who here would get up and say, I'm a homosexual? And one person got up and said, I would. [00:41:30] And we don't know the name of that hero. But my mother reported this to me as, and some fool got up and said, I am. But she was a liberal, and the Homosexual Oral Form Society was very respectable and liberal. And it had bishops and lawyers. And, um, Uh, and they had a very limited aim to decriminalize homosexuality. There was, um, no, um, [00:42:00] thought of gay liberation, or equality, let alone marriage. When was the moment you, you realised that it was the day that you were going through the park, through Hagley Park, was also the day that, that Alan had been murdered? Oh, that was immediate. I mean, you know, um, that afternoon or very soon after, maybe the next day in the Christchurch press, a man had been murdered in Hackney Park. So, yes, [00:42:30] I was never in any doubt that that was what had stopped me. Yeah. But, but, I was deeply closeted to myself back then, and I didn't identify with Alan. I mean, the homophobia was in the air we breathed. It, it, it was all pervasive. It was part of the general, um, narrow minded, conformist society of the 60s, and especially in Christchurch.[00:43:00] So then at what point did you start kind of relating to Alan's story? Like, like, suddenly? Oh, much later. Much later. I mean, um, that, well that's my story anyway. I mean, and um, Today is Abba Hart's day. It's Alan Abba Hart's day, which, we've had a wonderful time, uh, in as much as, well, I say wonderful. Um, it has been enlightening and enriching and heartwarming to hear what a [00:43:30] good person Alan Abba Hart was. That's part of the, the thing that he was, and how, how, he was actually a bit special. You've, you've got the complete story of his, you know, his talents. But, you know, he, uh, there was no good reason for him to be a victim. Um, and, you know, this has, this has been a very special time, yes. To see the gay [00:44:00] community and the Abahat family, and, and, and the, uh, Tangata Whenua come together for this. I gather there was a tapu lifting at dawn before we, before we arrived. But, you know, as is the way. And, um, uh, I, I do hope, I was only hoping that there, there should be a memorial here. But, um, I gather that there's going to be, there is a, found, an Abahat Foundation. And, uh, this is, uh, going to do [00:44:30] serious work on, um, uh, abolishing homophobia. And, I mean, as Kelly said, um, you know, it, it hasn't stopped. Kelly narrowly escaped being another child. Alan Aberhart. I think, um, the acknowledgement today of what's happened 60 years ago and all the work and all the work that's been done by so many people to get [00:45:00] things where they are today and have the involvement of all the politicians and all the legal legislation I think it's it's been a quite a powerful moving day. I'm very proud to be part of it. Can you tell me what the feeling was like at the memorial? Well, I had tears in my eyes a couple of times. I thought it was really terrific, really respectful. Um, and it was really, it was really quite beautiful actually, quite touching. Yes, I have to agree. It was [00:45:30] very moving. They had the rain, and then, um, Like someone said, ethereal. Yes, it was quite lovely. And then the sun came out and the sun was, it was shining on the lectern because I remember there was concern, oh, they'll be blinded on the lectern, but somebody else said, no, no, the sun will be high enough, they'll be able to see. And I think they could see at the lectern. So how has, um, Alan impacted on your lives? Well, I could. [00:46:00] He has impacted on my life, there's no two ways about it. It's a wee bit of a story, but, but not much of one I suppose, but I was, we could do the math, but I think I was about 15 at the time, and I remember that, uh, this happened. And you know, I went to a single sex boarding school. I generally, no one ever talked about it, but this case was a very big case. And, uh, I remember being very upset when I learned that these six, uh, [00:46:30] young men had been found not guilty of anything. And that this guy had simply died. And that was it. There was no one going to pay any price for it at all. Very angry about that, and, uh, very upset about that, but the thing I remember, uh, was that he didn't feel, one, being me, didn't feel comfortable talking about it, either in the family, or out and about. It was a deeply shunned subject, really. That was my impression at the time, [00:47:00] and I also remember that I thought, Oh, I have to get those guys some time, the typical teenage thought, you know what I mean? Really, but it's true, I actually, I'm just telling the truth, that's what I sort of thought. But of course, one doesn't go around doing that sort of thing. But for me personally, having this event 60 years later is, it's like a, you know, we say full circle. But it is kind of like, that I feel really, wow, it's not too strong a word. I feel quite proud to have been a very small part of it. [00:47:30] So when you were growing up you were in Canterbury? Yes, yes, that's right, yeah. Yeah, right, right here in Canterbury, yeah. So what do you think, um, Alan's legacy will be? I think that is now just developing. Um, way beyond what an ordinary man, as the press described this morning, uh, way beyond what he could have conceived of. So I think his legacy will be quite, excuse me, quite good, really. Because they're talking about, um, a fund in his name to support, you know, [00:48:00] good, um, queer causes and things like that. And hopefully there'll be a memorial. Maybe with a plaque, people will be able to contemplate, maybe not with a plaque, but, but something anyway. And, um, so I think his legacy is actually from here going to get bigger. Uh, he does have the fact that the other part of his legacy being that he was sort of pre the gay rights movement. His story is part of creating the, the milieu, if you like, where slowly society was [00:48:30] making room for gay rights to come along and say, hey, we want our rights. That's quite important. So his story would have moved a lot of people at the time. Well it moved me when I was a 15 year old kid, and I wasn't gay and didn't think I was gay while I was hidden from myself. So it would have moved a lot of people, and then just a few years later, Gay Liberation's happening, Stonewall, over in America, and then starting here in early 1970. So, he kicked it off in a way. Um, if you know what I mean. He didn't [00:49:00] personally do any of that, but his story created Uh, a readiness, helped to create a readiness in society for change, I think. Yeah. Kia ora, I'm Lily McFarlane, um, Program Manager at the Rural Foundation. Um, we've just been in Hagley Park, Otatahi Christchurch. Uh, remembering the life of Charles Alan Aberhart, who Um, was murdered here 60 years ago to the day, [00:49:30] um, and what's widely, uh, accepted as a gay hate crime. So we've just been coming together with community, remembering him, um, hearing stories about him, um, and sort of, yeah, looking forward to the future as well. Why was it important for the foundation to be a part of this? Yeah, well, the Rural Foundation, um, is This was created in honour of Peter Rule, um, he was a decorated, um, Air Force [00:50:00] officer in the Royal New Zealand Air Force, um, but unfortunately was pressured to, um, leave the Air Force when it was discovered that he was gay, um, as you can imagine that was pretty devastating, um, for him and his life and, um, Yeah, he, he retrained and became a art administrator and actually built a massive Korean ceramics collection, um, which unfortunately he, um, he took his life the year after the homosexual law reform, [00:50:30] um, left his estate to be sold off and for, um, that money to be, um, given for the benefit of our queer community. And so, um, That estate, essentially, was entrusted to us and what became the Royal Foundation. And so we saw a lot of parallels between the experience that, um, Peter had and the experience that Alan had and it, you know, it was just a very natural thing for us to be involved in, um, especially being so connected into our communities, um, [00:51:00] in Aotearoa and, um, yeah, and in some ways we were kind of honouring Peter by honouring Alan and, um, Yeah, it was a easy decision to be here. There's also that other connection of the Rural Foundation being the administrator of the expungement legacy fund, yeah? Yeah, so we are sort of Other pool of money, um, after the apology for, [00:51:30] um, yeah, incarceration for homosexuality, um, the government did a big apology and the community said, well, as part of that apology, we would love for there to be a fund. And the government originally was going to administer that, um, though essentially the community sort of spoke up and sort of thought, no, there's this foundation. You know, we have a relationship with them, that sort of thing, we'd love for you to endow them with the money instead. So, um, we were endowed with one million dollars at first, from the [00:52:00] government, for us to hold in perpetuity. Um, and then a while later, a top up of, um, 800k. That money is essentially the Rainbow Wellbeing Legacy Fund, um, the criteria for which is just to support the, the mental health and wellbeing of our rainbow communities. Um, and we're a few years down the track now. We've been able to grow that money quite significantly. We were able to give away 500k in our last round. So from that 180, or was it a million to start with, but we give away those dividends. So, [00:52:30] um, yeah, it's just grown and it's grown. And as I said today, um, another fund is being, um, administered and that will kind of just keep growing that pool that is available nationally to our communities, yeah. Can you give me just some examples of where that funding goes? Oh yeah, it's a real range, um, because we're all about balancing history and legacy, like we've seen today, and how important that is with, you know, our rangatahi and their Very new needs, um, um, in [00:53:00] community. So, we tend to support a real range, a lot of art, a lot of queer art, because we know that that's, you know, art has always been a massive part of, um, queer liberation. And, and so we, we tend to put a lot of putia towards that, which is often underfunded by other areas. Um, You know, we also support, more locally, we're, because we're here in Christchurch now, um, we support Mana Tipa Mana Ora, which is essentially Takatāpui [00:53:30] Rangatahi, um, really, to just create safe spaces, because so many of our communities in New Zealand are still in a place where, um, That's what they need, just places to come together and talk and, and be in community. Um, whereas some of the other things we support are more project based. We work with Auckland Pride, um, to deliver Pride events. Um, yeah, a real range. We're always open to whatever people want to come to us with, to be fair. Um, we help. Publishers who are [00:54:00] publishing queer history, documentaries. Yeah, a real fun range actually, yeah. Bringing it back to today's memorial event, what was that like organising and kind of putting it together? It was actually the thing that has really stuck with me. So I'm usually based in Te Whanganui a Tara, but I grew up in Timaru, which is just south of here. Yeah, so I'm a small town girl, and it's been a real reminder. I know Christchurch is not necessarily a small town, but Sort of a small [00:54:30] city, and it's got that same interconnectedness that I remember having when I lived in a small town, and the thing that stuck with me is, you know, Nicole came to us, and that's where it all started. Um, but from then on, the more people we connected with, we just started to realize everyone knew each other, everyone was willing to chip in and help out, and this is one of the easiest things I've ever been involved in. Um, and so I've just been struck by, [00:55:00] yeah, just the enthusiasm and the willingness and just how much no one had to really take on a burden. Everyone just did their little part. Um, we used our skills, pulled our contacts and the invites got to where they needed to go. And we had a, you know, a diverse, robust group of people here today, which was just really lovely. Can you describe the feeling of the event? It was just, I think it was just. And, um, it just felt profound [00:55:30] to me. I think I've been so caught up in the organizing and that sort of thing that maybe I, you know, hadn't been thinking about quite the significance, especially, um, the journey the families had to go on to get here and to, um, start their healing journey, um, and to physically be in the place, um, or close to the place that it happened. I think, I think people felt that. And I think people. It's also felt, um, how far we still have to go and, and hopefully, like I did, felt [00:56:00] re energized to do that, um, especially being able to look around at the support we had and, and the support of our public figures as well I think was really important, um, from the beginning we thought it was essential that the council support this event and especially the mayor, um, to just really send a message to the community that they are supported, um, at all levels. Um, and that we're committed to this not being a full stop, you know, we're going to carry on. This is just the [00:56:30] start of what is in store for this community, um, in terms of queer liberation, so yeah.

IRN: 3764
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/charles_allan_aberhart_memorial.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004974
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1107385
TITLE: Charles Allan Aberhart memorial
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Amy Carter; Denis Aberhart; Grant Robertson; Kelly Hopkins; Loren Aberhart
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1960s; 2020s; Allan Aberhart Fund; Amy Carter; Canterbury; Charles Allan Aberhart; Christchurch; Criminal Records (Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences) Act 2018; Denis Aberhart; Hagley Park; Hagley Park North; Kelly Hopkins; Loren Aberhart; Ngāi Tūāhuriri; Nicole Skews-Poole; Rule Foundation; St John Ambulance of New Zealand; The Christchurch Foundation; Wellington; acting; attack; crime; expungement; hate crime; homophobic violence; homosexual law reform; indecent assault; justice; magic; murder; social media; tapu
DATE: 23 January 2024
YEAR: 2024
LOCATION: Hagley Park North, Christchurch
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: January 2024
TEXT: [00:00:00] Pūi kūu whiti whiti ora e Whiti ora ki te whai ao ki te ao mārama e Toi tū te aroha ki te tāngata e Ki atawhai ki te iwi e Atiha mauri ora. He tuku [00:00:30] atu te honore. Ki te Matua Tama Wairoa Tapu me ngā ana hera pono, ko te māngai hei tautoko mai, aia nei āke nei ai. Nā reira, kia koutou i ngā mani i ngā reo, i ngā memā o te Pāremata, i ngā kanuhi o te Kounihero o Waitaha, e te mea, e te whānau, koutou katoa rā.[00:01:00] Tēnā rā, Ngāi Tūāhuriri. E mihi atu, e mihi arohā ki a koutou kua taumai nei rungi te kāranga o tēnei a tātou hui huinga. Nā reira, kia koutou ngā mane i ngā reo. Pikimai, kakemai, taumai. Kei rungi tēnei a tātou nei whenua. Nā reira, koutou katoa rā. [00:01:30] Tēnei mātou te taumata o Ngāi Tuahiriri. E mihi kawatu, e mihi aroha kia koutou katoa. Nā reira, huri noa, huri noa. Nau mai, piki mai, kake mai. Hara mai, whakatau mai. A tihei mauri ora. So in translation, firstly, we give honour to the Creator and the author of all life, the holy and faithful angels, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen. And to [00:02:00] you all, to our members of parliament who have come, to our councillors, to our mayor, welcome. I, Tūāhiriri, extend the warmest of greetings to you all on a special occasion. And today, may we remember those of the ancestors who we have come to celebrate. [00:02:30] And the times that they went through. So on that note, again, I just want to reiterate and reinforce the welcome of our Hapū Tū all. Welcome, twice welcome, thrice welcome, Aotearoa.[00:03:00] E arepa te omeka, kau [00:03:30] toko tiamai te roku nei. Piri Wiritoa, a muera, ka puta, ka ora e. Nā reira hurinoa, mihi ana [00:04:00] kia koutou. Look, just want to reiterate, reinforce our acknowledgement to you all, and in particular the whānau who have come. Hurinoa, tihei mauri ora, Lauren. Hī nā i tū ahuriri. Mana whenua o tēnei rohe, tēnā koutou. Ngā mihi mō ō kaitiakitanga o ngā whenua, ngā maunga, awa, rohe me tai. Ka nui te mihi anō. Ngā mihi hohonu mō te [00:04:30] whakanoa ki tēnei whenua. He tino hirahira mō mātau, mō aku whānau, whānui rātaukau, te hāpore, takata, pui. Ahakoa, nau mai, haere mai ki a koutou, morena, kia ora. My name is Lauren Abahart, and as you have probably guessed by my last name, I am the great niece of Charles, also known as Alan Abahart, who we are here to remember today. I want to start by acknowledging all of you [00:05:00] who have taken the time to join us here in today's memorial event for Alan. Who tragically lost his life at this very site 60 years ago today. However, today is not just to close the door on the past. But is to remember the man behind the story. And to acknowledge the legacy that his death left on the generations that followed. And the change that his death had on both our social fabric and the legal system here in [00:05:30] Aotearoa, New Zealand. I particularly want to acknowledge and recognise my fellow family members who are here today. For most of us, this is the first time we have visited this site. And I'd also like to note and acknowledge those who couldn't be with us today. Those who have passed or those due to ill health or other circumstances were unable to attend. I want to recognise them. I'd also like to acknowledge the special guests here today, including Honourable Mayor [00:06:00] Phil Major, Honourable Megan Woods MP for Wigram, Honourable Duncan Webb MP for Christchurch Central, Councillor Sarah Templeton, Councillor Yani Johansson, Honourable Leanne Dalziel, former Mayor of Christchurch, Liz Ketidu, Mark Kato and our Ngāi Tuahiriri whānui, and the many members of the queer community who have come today. We thank you. I'd also particularly like to acknowledge Honourable Grant Robertson MP who is here today who supported our [00:06:30] whānau in having Alan's, uh, conviction expunged. So thank you, Grant. Finally, I'd like to thank the Rural Foundation, Christchurch City Council, and particularly Nicole Skewers Poole, my newly found cousin, for their support in making today happen. We are incredibly thankful for your support, and to live in a city where we know the queer community are seen, valued, and celebrated. So, as your MC today, it is my job to keep things [00:07:00] running, so here is a quick summary of what to expect this morning, and I promise it ends with tea and coffee. Firstly, um, I'd like to acknowledge the role of Ngāi Tua Huriri, who have supported us this morning in releasing the tapu from the site of Alan's death. It has been a meaningful and symbolic gesture to support our whānau in moving forwards. Shortly, we'll be hearing from our family spokesperson with memories of Alan's life and some reflections of our wider family experience. [00:07:30] Next up, we'd like to open the floor to hear from any members of the community here today who wish to remember Alan or speak about the legacy that his death has left on their life or their community. So please do take the time to think if there's anything you'd like to say. Finally, we'll hear from the Christchurch Foundation, who, with the support of the Rural Foundation, will be working alongside our family to establish a fund in Alan's name to continue to make a difference for the queer community.[00:08:00] At the end of today's proceedings, we'll then all move through the park, around here, over to Ilex to share some kai. It is now my pleasure to introduce the spokesperson on behalf of our family, Dennis Aberhart. Dennis has a range of memories to share about Alan's life, but will also speak about the deeply personal impact Alan's passing had on our family. Kia ora Uncle Dennis. Thank you Lauren. Tēnā koutou, [00:08:30] tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa. Um, special welcome to our Honourable Mayor, Phil Major, to Honourable Megan Woods. Duncan Webb and Grant Robertson to Liz . And . Great to see you again, mark and the na. Um, to re um, au who came this morning to do that. Uh, honorable Lee Delle, uh, and councilor Sarah Templeton, and I think there was, Yanni Johanssen [00:09:00] was mentioned as well. And anyone that I've forgotten, councilor Sarah Templeton and anyone I've mentioned, but. Special welcome to the, uh, Rainbow community, to, um, members of the Ruhl family, Ruhl Foundation, and also to members of the Christchurch Foundation. And, of course, our whanau. And anyone else that I have forgotten, it's great that you are here, and you've come to support this occasion. So, yes, my name's Dennis. Uncle [00:09:30] Alan was my father's brother. Uncle Alan was the oldest, um, member of five brothers, um, and they lived in Grove Road, across the road from the commercial hotel, which was quite close for them. And, um, some of them there, and Uncle Alan was probably the quietest of those boys, and they were, because they were quite, they were rural characters. Um, so my father was Ray, and he passed away in 1985, [00:10:00] and we came back to the funeral when Auckland Shield. Of Canterbury and after that long era. My mother Ruby, uh, would love to have been here today. Um, and I apologise, not for her, but I apologise that she cannot be here today because she would love to have been here. And, um, so we recognise that. So on this day, 60 years ago, Uncle Alan was killed by 6 youths. Who were all arrested by 7 o'clock the next morning. [00:10:30] They admitted they'd come here to attack a queer. Well, they achieved their goal, and because of the beating that Uncle Alan had here, he died. I remember when Dad was told about it, and my mother, and we were living in a lovely place called Kinna Beach, on an orchard. And Dad was the manager. But we knew that Uncle Alan had been killed, but we were not given any [00:11:00] detail, as a family. In fact, it wasn't until I went to Teachers College in 1972, yes that long ago, um, where I was in a hostel on Bullcott Street, and one of my mates at the hostel said, Did you know Alan Aberhart? And I said, Yeah, he was me uncle. And he got out his textbook. And so the first I knew really about the details about the trial was that of a textbook [00:11:30] that a mate of mine was at the university and it showed all the history. I must say there was a phone call soon after to my parents to find out more details but it was never really talked about. Um, and my dad in particular never talked about it very much at all and even within the family. And you knew not to ask questions or to discuss, you knew it. So we found out pretty much from court papers and all those things, our own information. [00:12:00] But times were different 60 years ago. There's no doubt about that. Nana, that's Uncle Alan's mother, asked, who was down here with Uncle Alan for a wedding that they were attending, asked that no members, family members go to the trial. So from my understanding, no members of our family were at the trial. So, it leaves, she said the police would sort it out. And, well, we know different than that in the [00:12:30] end. But, um, so there's a lot of unanswered questions for us. He certainly didn't receive justice. The six youths were not found guilty. Even though they admitted the assault. The defence lawyers pushed the sympathy of the accused because they were young. And the defence lawyers pushed the Alleged shortcomings of Uncle Alan, and that he was a convicted pervert. To quote from one of the lawyers, this [00:13:00] is a sordid story, and the tragedy is the youth of the sixth accused. In spite of this, Abahad had a right to live, in spite of his shortcomings. The year before, Uncle Alan was sent to jail for three months for an indecent assault on a male. That was used at the court. This was fully consensual and today would not be unlawful. And [00:13:30] through the homosexual law reform that Grant was very much involved in. Um, some other men had been arrested, so Uncle Alan decided that he would confess as well. So story has it, and I've got this from family, that he went to the police station and told them. And they said, go away Alan, we were actually We're not interested in you, but he got a three month sentence and, um, his conviction in 2019 was expunged [00:14:00] and was cleared of any conviction. And thank you Nicole, who I met for the first time this morning, so thank you to Nicole and I know Grant was involved in that as well, for your persistence and, um, your initiative to begin with. And, um, Gaining this. As a family, we'd have no clue that you could do that, and we wouldn't even know how to go about it. So thank you for, uh, the time and energy that you spent in doing that. It's much [00:14:30] appreciated. The verdict in the press the next day reported that it's hard to understand how the jury decided yesterday that none of the six youth were guilty. We can only hope they were not influenced by the reported character of the dead man. Well, I believe we know the answer to that. He did not receive justice that I'm sure that he would get today. So it's really great that we've [00:15:00] come here this morning, and for the tapu, and the prayers, and to bless the site, and as a family to give us the opportunity. Most of us have not been here. Um, this is Uncle Alan. He was a good looker in the family. Abahar, take great ears. And if you look at the other side, check their ears out. So, Uncle Alan was certainly [00:15:30] the good looker. Always well dressed, and all of us in the next generation are struggling to be good lookers as well. We're not quite making it, but we do our best. Except for yourself. Except Michael. Um, he's the eldest of five brothers. And the only one that escaped Blenheim was Dad, who went to manage an orchard in Matawaika. But the, um, the other three brothers, Uncle Les, who was a magician, he got, he married. But the [00:16:00] other three were not married. But we lost Uncle Alan first, of course, at the age of 37. They lived in Grove Road, and it was an easy trip across the road to the commercial, which is now called The Grove. My father Ray was the second eldest. And Uncle Alan, I've seen the photo, he was the best man at my parents wedding. I remember Uncle Alan as a kind, and I was almost 11 at the time. And, um, I remember him as a kind, caring, [00:16:30] gentle man. He was very reserved. He was the most reserved of the Abha boys. Always well dressed. And a gentleman. He was a wonderful son, brother. Uncle and friend, and he got involved in all the family things that were going on, like you do the old sport and cheating at cricket on the backyard and the rugby, all that sort of thing. Taught us how to put the coins on the railway line so we could flatten them when the trains went past their backyards through the, pretty much through their garden.[00:17:00] Uncle Alan was multi talented. He was an actor. He starred in shows, Blenheim Operatic Society's, uh, All the drama things are there, you see pictures of him acting on the stage. He was also a fine piano player and singer. Certainly, only one of the members of the family have got that, not many of us have got that. He travelled all around Australia and New Zealand to see the great [00:17:30] shows that were on. He was a great photographer, so he used to love coming home and sharing the photos that he had taken, and, and shared them with family and friends. He knew many magic tricks. One of our uncles was actually a magician, Taiyan the magician, who used to go to pubs and do, do the, act as a magician and go to shows and all those sort of things. Uncle Alan also knew many tricks and he tried to teach us them as well, so he shared those things. He was [00:18:00] well liked and successful manager of Miller's Drapery in Blenheim. From what I've been told his staff loved working with him. He was a member of St John's. In other community groups, so he was definitely a person that was involved in the community, doing stuff. Not a talker, he was a doer. And I think that's really important to remember. From what others have told me, he was a very special man. And I [00:18:30] found that myself, as a little, um, pain in the ass nephew. Um, and I can remember that, that he really was a special man. I'd actually, in fact, I think he was a BGB, which is a bloody good bloke, and I think that, that, that's how I would remember him. Uncle Alan would not enjoy this. He would not enjoy this fuss. He would be in the background [00:19:00] doing what, but he just would not be enjoying this fuss. But as a family, we are grateful that his miscarriage of justice. He's been used to make a real difference for the rainbow community. And I, and the other people that he is, perhaps he's the poster boys, not bad poster boy, I think, and maybe he is for that. The homosexual rule law reform is, but one example really where people have taken this on board. [00:19:30] The establishment of the rule in the Christchurch foundations, um, for the benefit of the rain community is to be welcomed and applauded. And we're really pleased that Uncle Alan is to be part of that. And we thank the Royal Family, the Royal Foundation, the Christchurch Foundation, for, um, what will be talked about soon. But as a whanau, we are really pleased to be part of that. We are grateful for today's blessing from the local [00:20:00] iwi. It's brought us together as a whanau, it's brought all these people here together. It's even got the Mayor away from his digger and from the office and things, which is really great. And in this great city of Christchurch, that we've come here, under these trees, where Uncle Alan was killed. And to remember that. But, the people here are looking to make a difference. And I think that's what the important thing, and that's what Uncle Alan would love, the fact that people are trying to make a difference out of a horrible [00:20:30] situation. Um, for most of the family, and I've been in Christchurch. Almost since Adam was a cowboy, but for 40 years I moved here, I have not been here. So for me, and for our whanau, to do that, it's special. To be able to come and do that. Um, I can't finish without saying thank you to Lauren, for her organisation, and putting this together. And thank you to all you [00:21:00] people for coming, and supporting this occasion. Um, and, uh, Making us realise this man did make a difference. And he will continue to make a difference if we remember him. And I'm glad today that I've been able to share about the person that Uncle Alan was. Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa.[00:21:30] Thank you, Uncle Dennis. That was incredible. And I think, um, for all of us as a family getting together, um, it is always a shame that these things, uh, often happen at weddings and funerals. Uh, but we are getting together for dinner tonight, which will be lovely, and also to recognise my cousin Dom's 18th birthday. So happy birthday, Dom. Um, so look, I'd now like to open the floor if anyone would like to, um, speak. Uh, no pressure. Um, and I'm not sure I'm capable of [00:22:00] getting the microphone working, so you might just need to speak loudly. Grant. He mihi ana a mana whenua. Tēnā koutou katoa. Rau rangatira ma'ana hoefa. Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa. Uh, I just wanted to say very briefly to acknowledge, um, Alan's whanau because whenever there's a shared public grief, it's actually very [00:22:30] challenging. A family mourns the loss of a loved one and a community shares in that. Um, that is something that the family gives to the wider community. And so I just want to acknowledge, um, the Abahat whanau and the wider. Uh, whānau who are represented here today, and thank you for, um, letting all of us be part of this. Because, um, it can be and should be a deeply personal thing, um, especially in the circumstances of, of Alan's murder. And so [00:23:00] Uh, I think it's important that we acknowledge all of you today and say thank you, nami, nui kia koutou katoa for, for what you have done, um, to let us in, because, um, for lots of the people here, um, Alan's part of our whakapapa as well, uh, because he's part of our rainbow community and we share that whakapapa with you. And I want to acknowledge Nicole, I've lost you Nicole, wherever you are, there you are, um, who came into my office, and I can't [00:23:30] remember what year it was, um, to talk about Alan and talk about whether it was possible for his conviction. Uh, to be, uh, expunged under the law that we passed, uh, to allow for that to happen. And I'm grateful, Nicole, because I didn't know about Alan either. And the more I learned, uh, I'll be honest, the angrier I got. And it's important to acknowledge that emotion today as well. Um, but also the more I realized the importance of the [00:24:00] law that we had passed that allows those convictions to be expunged. For as Dennis indicated. Um, an act that, um, is actually part of the daily life of many of the people here, uh, today and is a consensual thing and should never have been a conviction at all. And so the ability to expunge it and take it off the record, and Alan has no criminal record, very important for the whanau to know that. He has no criminal record. And [00:24:30] so, Nicole, I thank you for, for bringing that to me and then, um, for the wider family for this opportunity today. Uh, I also want to acknowledge, um, the Rule Foundation, uh, who I've worked with over a period of time now. Um, when we did do the, uh, expungement legislation, we created a fund, the Rainbow Legacy Fund, which is designed to support young people, particularly, um, with mental health challenges in the queer community, but more [00:25:00] broadly to support positive uh, actions. The idea now that there will be a further addition to that in Alan's name, um, I think is tremendous, because the legacy must be a positive one. Um, Alan was murdered here, but many of us have been able to live our lives, uh, in ways that he could never have imagined. And it's down to the fact that people like him went through. that. There are many members of the community here who were around [00:25:30] Christchurch at that time or in other parts of New Zealand who worked on homosexual law reform. I'm not quite as old as you think I am, Dennis. I was 14 when homosexual law reform passed, but I wasn't involved in that. I was involved in some things that came a bit later, but I, I acknowledge all of the people whose sacrifice and whose mahi over many, many years has allowed our community to be able to live the way we do. Nothing's perfect in the world. There's still more work to do to create a society that is [00:26:00] inclusive, and that respects, I hate the word tolerance, I never use it, because if you're tolerating something, you're putting up with it. What we want is a society where we include, and we respect, and we support each other in our differences. And so I want to acknowledge today that this is an important occasion to say thank you to Ellen. To mourn his passing, but to look to a future where his sacrifice is one that supports future generations to live their lives as they want to. [00:26:30] Ngā mihi nui. Is there anyone else that would like to say a few words? Yeah, welcome. Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa. Good morning. Um. I'm not a member of Alan's whānau, but I feel like I am, and I feel like I have a connection to Alan. So, my name is Kelly Hopkins. I was born in 1976. Um, well [00:27:00] after the events that happened here in this space. And I'd really like to thank Ellen and for the people that did the work that allowed, um, homosexuals and, and people with different genders and sexualities to walk down the street holding the hand of their partner. I believe I was the, I've come up in that first generation of gay men where we can do so. We can walk openly outside holding the hands of our partners. We can walk proudly. We're no longer, um, limited by the law and who we can love. [00:27:30] Um, I also feel a kinship to Ellen because, uh, less than one year ago, in a park in Christchurch very similar to this one, I was also attacked and beaten by between six and eight teenagers. Um, as were, um, around ten other men in the Christchurch area. Um, we were ambushed. Um, these teenagers had cell phones. Um, so they live streamed and broadcast. these attacks on social media. So for all of the progress that we've [00:28:00] made, it's really, really important, the work that's happening here today, with the Royal Foundation and the Christchurch Foundation and Alan's whanau to actually, um, to support other victims going forward and to ensure that these things don't happen anymore. Grants, there's more reform that we need to do around the youth legal system as well because, um, the young people who were responsible for Alan's death went on to live their lives. It's highly likely that the young people that were responsible for these ten [00:28:30] vicious attacks across Christchurch, or even more Um, and I say even more because, uh, well under half of the victims are known and over half of the victims are still as yet unknown, they haven't come forward. This is because of the shame that we often feel in the, in the gay community. Potentially they're married or, or they're not out. They were so seriously traumatized or injured. We know they're there because the police have the videos of these attacks. Um, so I think it's really important that we recognize and we thank Alan for his [00:29:00] sacrifice and the family for, for really bringing this forward. Um, and let's hope that this momentum continues and we can get some real change as well to start holding people accountable. We still have gay people, we still have our trans community, we have our non binary community, anybody that looks a little bit different. We still have some risks. So, um, I'd just really like to thank the whanau for making this happen today, um, kia ora.[00:29:30] so much, that is, um, yeah, I am so proud to be here today to continue to try and make a change for the community. Um, which is a wonderful segue because it is now my pleasure to invite Amy Carter, Chief Executive for the Christchurch Foundation, uh, to speak about how the Aberhart family would like to continue to remember Alan's memory. Tēnā koutou katoa everyone. It's lovely to see so many lovely, bright, cherry faces this time of the [00:30:00] morning. Um, I'm very proud to be here today representing the Christchurch Foundations and the citizens of Greater Christchurch, which includes Selwyn and Waimakariri as well. We're a community foundation for that area. And as such, we're an advisory and support entity that helps generous people and businesses create enduring, transformative change for our people and our place, in this place. And we also act as a catalyst, bringing individuals, organisations and businesses together. to collaborate for positive [00:30:30] change and intergenerational impact. As part of ensuring that we achieve this, in 2019 we asked residents what was important to them. Where should we prioritize our philanthropic investment? And I'm really pleased and thrilled to say that three strong themes came out of that research, with over three quarters of our residents mentioning them. And relevant today is that our residents want our place to be somewhere where everyone feels welcome, safe and can thrive. [00:31:00] I'm pleased to share, as mentioned before, that the Aberhart family have asked us to establish a fund in Alan's memory that will support those who have been impacted by hate crimes. The finer details are yet to be locked in, but we're working towards launching this fund as part of Christchurch Pride, which is happening in March. The new fund will sit alongside our already established Rainbow Fund. And the two funds will complement each other, one playing a supporting role for those that need help. And they are the raising profile of the community, celebrating and championing [00:31:30] our people here in Greater Christchurch. Anyone that's interested in helping with the establishment of the new Allen Fund? Please get in touch, I'm happy to have a conversation. Um, we will need a distribution committee, and we want members of the community to be part of that, that have been through that process, to help us with our allocations of resources. And the Ellen Abahart Fund will have a geographic area probably a little bit wider than our area as well, just to recognise that the whānau, so many of them, live slightly further north. [00:32:00] Um, so just please keep an eye out for further information, and thanks to Nicole and Lily, it's been great working with you. Thanks. So that brings us to the end of, uh, today's proceedings. Um, I'd like to invite Ngāi Te Huriri now to close today's event. Um, and then we invite you all to join us for more conversation, um, and maybe a few tears and hugs, [00:32:30] uh, over, um, refreshments at ILEX, um, to join us in the final whakanoa, as we move towards and to what we hope is a future where we can all be free to be who we were born to be. Ngā mihi nui ki a koutou, kia ora. Tēnā tātou anō. Look, I'll just say whakamuimiti, or give thanks, to close our proceedings off here this [00:33:00] morning. But again, mihi ana ki a koutou, a big acknowledgement to you all. On that note, let us pray, kia inoi tātou. E tō māte matanui te rangi, tukumai tō hātora hano kei runga kia mātou e hui hui nei. Awhina Tiamana, ki te mai a mātou i tēnei rā, mei ngā rā kei te heke mai nei kia piki te ora, piki te kaha, piki te māramatanga, kei runga kia mātou tīnana, kia mātou ngākau, mei mātou wairua. Ko kaitou anō nei te tīmatatanga mei te whakāotinga, mai a mātou e tūmanāku [00:33:30] te atu nei iro te tō kaitou. Kororiatanga, ko te māngai hei tautoko mai, āia nei, āke nei āe. Amine. [00:35:00] So let us proceed now [00:35:30] to continue on that note.

IRN: 3762
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/interference_david_oxenbridge.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004973
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1107384
TITLE: David Oxenbridge on Interference
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: David Oxenbridge
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 2020s; Africa; Alison Laurie; Andrew Whiteside; Aotearoa New Zealand; David Hindley; David Oxenbridge; HIV / AIDS; Homosexual Law Reform; Human Rights Act (1993); Interference (documentary); Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Marilyn McFadyen; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Member of Parliament; Moral Majority; National Library of New Zealand; New Zealand Film Commission; Parliament grounds; Salient (magazine); Salvation Army; Salvation Army Citadel; TVNZ (Television New Zealand); Tighe Instone; United States of America; Welby Ings; Wellington; activism; archival footage; archives; audience; crowd funding; crowd sourcing; far-right politics; film; film making; funding; gay; gender diversity; gender identity; generative artificial intelligence; homosexual law reform; humour; lesbian; nun; passion; politics; queer theory; research; rest homes; social impact; social media; trans; transgender; transmedia; video
DATE: 4 January 2024
YEAR: 2024
LOCATION: Parliament grounds, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: David Oxenbridge is the associate producer and social impact producer of a new feature documentary in development with the working title of Interference. The documentary focuses on homosexual law reform in the mid-1980s. The producer is Marilyn McFadyen, and the director is Welby Ings.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: January 2024
TEXT: My name is David Oxenbridge and we are kind of standing on the Parliament steps. The idea for this interview was to actually be standing on the steps of Parliament because this is all around about homosexual law reform but because it was so windy here in Wellington we've actually gone around the corner and we're standing in an alcove facing Bowen Street. Correct. So we are talking about homosexual law reform and a really interesting documentary you're in the process of making. Can you tell [00:00:30] me What is the documentary? Uh, the documentary is, it's working title is Interference, and yeah, it focuses on the 16 months of the Homosexual Law Reform campaign. Why that title? Really, really good question. We had a number working title for a long time before that. The reason we chose Interference is for two really specific reasons, and one that a lot of people may not actually know about. One was the interference on the activists themselves. So they were [00:01:00] incredibly good at being able to infiltrate some of the anti bill, uh, events and meetings. They would use all sorts of disguises and sometimes even dressing up as families and couples to get into some of the town hall meetings. Um, there are great stories of them dressing as nuns to get into some of those, uh, events and that worked very well. Um, very hard to tell a nun off. As you can probably imagine, but the other part of the story that I would say a lot of New Zealanders would not know is the interference that [00:01:30] took place from the religious right in America. Um, the kind of moral majority, the same ones that helped to get Reagan into power, and the very same ones today that are interfering in places like countries in Africa. Um, creating huge amounts of homophobia and just really, um, horrific laws that are designed to even kill. Queer people in some of those countries. So how have you come to the project and what's your role? [00:02:00] Um, how did I come? So just very quickly, I'm an associate producer. So I answer directly to our producer. Who's name is Marilyn McFadgen. And a lot of work I do is, is really directed by her. I've, I've been involved a lot in, in the research of this documentary, especially at the beginning. Connecting with the activists, connecting with other people, researching and maintaining those relationships. Researching in the National Library, not too far away from us. With um, the Lesbian and Gay [00:02:30] Archives, also at the National Library. Um, but also just other kind of Um, tasks that, that kind of get delegated to me along the way. Um, I'm also involved in what's called a social impact producer. So my job as a social impact producer is to really make the, the kinds of lessons, um, the objectives of the documentary making them really tangible in the community. So to do that, my job is to connect with community groups and, and create actions and activities. and education around that that will [00:03:00] hopefully kind of move hearts and minds in the community. So I think the first part of that question was, how did I come upon? So, um, that started quite a long time ago. I went to university, um, kind of as an adult student in somewhere around 2004, 2005, and during that time I was asked to write an article for Salient, the Victoria University magazine. It was the 20th. Uh, anniversary of law reform at that time and I [00:03:30] interviewed a woman called Alison Lurie who was an activist during the, the 1980s, during home theater law reform. And I think at that stage she took, she taught queer theory at Victoria. What was fascinating, the very kind of menial research that I did at the time, it became glaringly obvious to me that this was a really rip roaring story. So if you take the politics aside, the education, the importance of the story, and just focus on the beats and the act, the kind of, the events that took place, just the political [00:04:00] events, it looked to me like this is a story that needed to be told. Even at that stage, I could see that some of the lessons that we had learned, some of the incredible happenings that took place during that time had been lost to history. A lot of people just did not know. And certainly the lessons, um, had not really been learned. And I felt like it was very important. That modern audiences, um, needed to know what had happened. It was obvious that a lot of the activists who had given up their lives, and in fact their own kind of [00:04:30] safety, needed to be celebrated. People needed to understand what they did. So that was where Um, and that just churned in my head, um, basically until 2018, and I'd been living overseas in Asia for quite a while. And I, I kind of, um, when I came back, I, I connected with Marilyn McFadgen, so I knew, knew with her for a friend. And I kind of, I guess, mmm, um, kind of pitched it to her, but, um, in a very relaxed way. And, [00:05:00] and, and this really started a snowball effect, because everyone we've spoken to since then have, have really, thought that this, this story should be told. And the first thing she said to me was, um, how can I help? And the rest is history. And I felt at that time, I felt incredibly honored because she's someone who has made tens of documentaries. She, um, spent a lot of time in Singapore making documentaries. She worked in the television industry before she went over. She's an incredibly experienced producer, [00:05:30] um, and very, very motivated, um, incredibly strategic. I'm very, very lucky to have. um, have her on board. And yeah, it all pretty much started from there. Just going back to that Salient article in the mid 2000s, so that's like 20 years after law reform. Were you surprised that there hadn't been a documentary made about homosexual law reform at that time? Yes and no. Surprised in the sense that, as I [00:06:00] said, it was just a story that was just jumping off the page. Needed to be told. But not surprised in a sense that even then, um, just as liberal as we were in 2005, we still weren't that liberal. It was still seen as a special interest story and not a New Zealand story. And there was still homophobia. Um, and the 80s I guess was still quite recent for people, yet at the same time, so much that had gone on had been forgotten. It's, it's, [00:06:30] yeah, I guess I was. Surprised, but also very excited because, you know, I realised the storytelling potential of those events. I guess one of the things that you're competing against now is time. Because, I mean, 20 years, people get older, activists are slowly passing away. What has that been like in terms of trying to get the momentum of the documentary going, knowing that people are passing? It is a huge [00:07:00] responsibility. You're absolutely right about that. We've spoken to lots of activists who have helped us and even in the time that I started to interview them, it was 2019 or something like that. Massive, um, changes were taking place. We've had activists who have died. Um, one of, um, our activists who has been an incredible source of information is, is now living in a rest home. So, things are changing all the time. And so, it's, it's, it's been [00:07:30] very difficult. And, and it's, it's, I think it's always frustrating as, A documentary producer, as someone like Marilyn will be able to tell you. In New Zealand, really, the only game in town for funding is New Zealand Film Commission. And they have incredibly tough requirements when it comes to get funding, and we've got to jump through all those hoops, and it takes a lot of time. What's also difficult is that You know, normally, if you're a feature film and you've [00:08:00] got, you know, production funding, once you get into production, you can then create your marketing and your social media presence, and you've got this wealth of content that you can use, because you're already in production. So, increase that community even more, because it's a community that you actually need to help you, especially documentaries. We're in a situation where we, um, to get this incredible story over the line, we really need help from the community. But it's very hard for us to create that content in order to do that, so it's kind of like a vicious cycle. Because we're not at the stage yet where we're in, um, [00:08:30] production. And so, we've got to be really clever with the way that, um, we create that content. So we've, we've just launched a Facebook page not, not long ago, and so, part of my job is to find ways to be able to create that community. It's about creating a community, because not only do we need help from the community, it's a community story. We know we're really doing this on behalf of the community. Now, I'm a complete novice in terms of film and documentary, so how, can you explain to me how, how funding works and [00:09:00] the kind of the stages that you have to go through in terms of funding and development? Um, that's something that, um, Marilyn has been focused on since, I guess, 2019. And we've, we've been incredibly lucky with her, she's played the long game, we've done everything that New Zealand Film Commission have wanted us to do, and so far we've been reaping those rewards. They know this is a good idea. They know the story needs to be told. And they've also been very, very good at really giving us a lot of advice. They have, for instance, given us funding, [00:09:30] um, to employ people like kind of script doctors and treatment doctors to really help us, um, kind of hone those skills for us to enable us to get even more funding. So just as an example of, of why it's quite difficult to make a, a documentary in this country is, uh, one reason for instance is, is they, they want it to be internationally viable. It can't just be a New Zealand story that plays New Zealand audiences. So you have to show that. You have to show there's interest from overseas. You have to have overseas distribution. In this [00:10:00] country, they expect upfront kind of, um, funding from any distributors and distributors are very reluctant to do that because documentaries don't work. really make money. It's just, they just don't. So yeah, it's, it's, it's been a tough road, but we've, we've been on this journey for a very long time now and we've been very lucky with the support we've got both from New Zealand Film Commission and the community at large. So you mentioned audiences and I'm wondering, can you describe the audiences that you're, you're thinking about when you're designing this? Because I, I [00:10:30] guess it really goes into not only, um, what you film, but how you film it and the stories that you tell. Primarily, our first protocol, you know, probably would be queer people, um, aged from 25 until something like 60 or 70, um, because this is their story. Both because there were people who were there, and this is their story, but also because of the young ones, we have a really important ethic to educate. Um, young, youngins, about this, [00:11:00] both so that they can understand and celebrate their history, but also, this is a really good warning, there are really good lessons here for some of the fights that are taking place today. It's incredibly important to understand the strategies that were employed during homosexual law reform because they worked, and they were, to my mind, the, the kind of architects of the protest movement were geniuses, because they managed to keep. The action's going consistently for 16 months, when [00:11:30] the people who sponsored the bill in the first place thought it might only take about four or five months. It took much longer, the community knew it would take longer, and so they had to employ a lot of tactics to be able to get it over the line and keep the momentum up. So that's really important. Um, the second audience is we really want to open this up to mainstream New Zealanders. Again, this is not a special interest story. We're talking about a story that took place during the 1980s. And this is an incredibly turbulent decade. This is a decade that changed us. [00:12:00] Now First of all, I mean, it changed us in many ways. It changed our outlook internationally when we come to things like ANSYS and the Rainbow Warrior bombing. It changed us in terms of the way that we view our indigenous population because of the protests that were going on. Um, it changed us again, I suppose, when it comes to racial relations and kind of in an international environment. The Springbok tour was incredible. Rodgenomics focused us on economics and the plight of those who are less fortunate than ourselves. [00:12:30] And what this did, is this took a movement that had started by the way, it had started much earlier in homosexual law reform, way back in the early 70s, in fact even in the late 60s, when you had groups like the Dorian Society set up, who I guess were tangentially involved in homosexual law reform, but certainly, um, gay liberalization. in the early 1970s and those events have been well documented. Um, I note that the very steps that you and I met on, there are photos, um, in the [00:13:00] Legands and the Lesbian and Gay Archives that show uh, gay activists with a banner on film, sitting on those very, very same steps, and I think it was, like, 1975. However, homosexual law reform took the word homosexuality and lesbianism. A lot of other words that probably should have Come up at that time, but, but didn't like gender minorities. It took those words into the living rooms. It took 'em onto the streets. It, it, it, it created a conversation that really did take place over the [00:13:30] entire country. So this is a story for all New Zealanders. A real focus that we have is on young people. So what we are looking at is probably a first release of the feature film in theaters and in, um. Film festivals that helps us create a buzz, but even more importantly as a second window of releases where it might go into platforms or it might go into streamers that and that hopefully will help us to connect with not just more audiences, but even younger audiences. The other part is with the impact [00:14:00] work I talked about before. There's this kind of, um, under the idea of what's called transmedia, where we create, we look at the greater storytelling world of homosexual law reform, and we go, how can we tell that story in different ways and in different platforms to reach different audiences, which may help us connect with young people. So that could be YouTube, it could be social media, it could also be physical, um, analog kinds of events. So we, we will, it's, it's limited because there's only me who's involved in that. And certainly I'm also involved with the fundraising, so those activities [00:14:30] might be a little bit limited. But we're also looking at ways that we can connect with them through those, um, I guess through the impact and through those greater kind of storytelling spin offs. The only other thing I would add to is that Welby Ings, our director, he's someone who really is quite passionate about connecting it with today's struggles. It's actually not hard to do. because the story really is relevant today. Not just because it was really a snowball effect that you could argue led on to the Human Rights Act in 1993, adding [00:15:00] sexuality, but also, um, gay marriage and a host of other things. But also those tactics and lessons that I mentioned before are something that are incredibly important and, and direct connectly, for instance, just with what's happening with, um, the movements with gender. today and the protests that are taking place. Those things are directly relatable. So we're also looking at opportunities to tell that story in a way that really connects with what's happening today. You've mentioned a number of times social impact and this being a [00:15:30] social impact documentary. Can you just describe a bit more about what do you mean by social impact? Social Impact is about making the aims and the goals of the film kind of manifest, basically. It's one thing, it's really a focus, normally with any kind of feature film, especially if it's not a documentary, if it's a, most feature films, many feature films are made with basically the idea to make money, to get bums on seats. Documentaries also want to Um, get bums and speaks because [00:16:00] ideally we'd like to recuperate our costs. But what's more important with, with social impact documentaries is making those objectives manifest. It's about connecting with communities. It's about, in the case of some other social impact documentaries, it might be about changing laws. It might be about writing injustices. I think about, I forget what that documentary was called, but a very famous impact. work, um, that I can recall was the documentary about the orca that was in [00:16:30] a, uh, in an American aquarium. And I, that, that was basically, um, the, the producers of that documentary wanted to get that, that orca freed. And there was a huge amount of actions that took place after that, that they had instigated to create, to make that happen. So that is a kind of a classic impact where you're actually, the, the, the doc, the impact of the documentary is to set that, that orca free. And so the impact activities will then make that manifest by the work they do in the community. [00:17:00] You referenced just before that, uh, we were, when we first met, we were standing on the steps of Parliament and I'm so glad you brought that reference back in because, uh, the thing for me about law reform was that not only was it about activists in the community, but it was also about the whole kind of legal process and that duality, that it was a political legal thing going on, but also the activists out in the community. How is that going to be kind of represented in the documentary? While I [00:17:30] talk about this being a story that may have been overshadowed by events such as Roger Gnomics or, um, the Rainbow Warrior bombing or, um, Springbok Tour. There, there are, you know, power dynamics within power dynamics, and the, the political part of it is actually relatively well known. You can go online right now and see very comprehensive timelines of homosexual law reform movement and what took place. What you won't see is the impacts that it had at the time on the community, what the impacts on the street were, [00:18:00] and people's homes, uh, I guess the politicians who may have crossed the floor, what was happening with their families, and, and really how it changed us. It is a real focus at Wellbe. Things our director really wants to focus on. He's really focused on the street. What was happening in the street, what was happening in those communities. So, while we're telling that story, there obviously will be a political lens, because it's, it's, it is, it's those activities, like the introduction of the bill and things like, uh, the anti petition that was presented to Parliament on those [00:18:30] very same steps. The, the different readings and, and, um, and, and certainly when the Act passed and became an Act. I think what's more important to us is what was happening in the community, what was happening on those streets. So that, I don't know if that answers your question, but that is a major focus of the story. We really want to kind of rise above just the politics and really tell those personal human stories that were happening as well. So as a researcher, how has it been finding those activists or those community stories? Has [00:19:00] it been easy or hard or how do you unearth that? To be clear, I'm not a professional researcher. It was probably the first time I've done anything like that. But it wasn't really too hard. You know, every time you speak to someone, they always suggest kind of other people. Um, I had never done those kind of interviews before. I found them quite easy because it was just really having conversations. Unlike what you're doing right now, I'm not creating an interview for broadcast. I was just creating interviews for research. And so, it didn't matter, for instance, if I was, you know, if, if, The sound quality [00:19:30] wasn't too good or anything like that. So, really it was just conversations. I just really wanted to find out what these people's involvements were. Both politically and to themselves as human beings and their families and their friends. The other part was, um, but yes, it, it, one of the major challenges we have is archive. It's finding an archive footage. We're relatively well. endowed when it comes to the images. I know Pride NZ, the site that you administer, has a lot of [00:20:00] images from an activist called David Hinley. Those images are incredible. He managed to document all the way through homosexual law reform, those 16 months before and after. So we're really lucky to have those and we have some other kind of photos. We have other kind of paraphernalia that have been collected and donated to Legans, Lesbian and Lesbian and Gay Archives. But, video? Hardly any. We're lucky to have a partnership with Getty's who gives us access to CVNZ Archive. [00:20:30] But there's not a lot of video. Every single time I've interviewed an activist or any, interviewed anyone, I've always asked them if they'd seen anyone in the crowd with a video camera. If they know of anyone, I've asked you, but there's just none around and we certainly will be putting the call out. In fact, I'll do that right now. We're putting a call out to anyone. who has got video or any kind of paraphernalia from the time. Um, this really helps us tell that story, but it also, more importantly, it helps us tell those personal stories of what was going on. But that, that's been very difficult to find. Luckily, [00:21:00] we've got an incredible director in Wellby. Who has a real focus, not just on storytelling, but on the aesthetic. Um, our goal is to make a really beautifully cinematographically impacting kind of work that will really get this film into theatres and, and really get people's interest in. He's just a man to be able to, to do that. But yes, that, that archive part, that research part has been both easy in the sense that people have been very willing and very open to give up their time. We're so lucky to have Leganes with the information that they do. [00:21:30] But. There is still, to really make this work, we, we still do lack a lot of material that's out there and so that part has been quite difficult to, to get. So there are so many different threads involved in homosexual law reform, from the personal to the political, so many different activists and so many different points of view. How, how do you go about distilling that down into a, a, a documentary? So the easy answer is that, really, we're [00:22:00] taking a real kind of forensic look at those 16 months that took place over that period. So, having well beings come on who is, um, he was the director who came on about a year ago. One thing I've learnt working in the production of this documentary is you have to be very conscious to kind of give the story up to other people. And so when you get a director coming on board, you want All their being and all their creativity to be employed to make this, this work really successful. So well beings will tell the [00:22:30] story the way that well being wants to tell the story. In a way that's really kind of close to him. But really the focus for us has mostly been on those kinds of, those 16 months. There may be a little bit of before and after to kind of create that relevance and to kind of create that context. But, But more than the storytelling and, and also just beyond those kinds of interviews. There's a lot of documentaries, especially TV documentaries, that you will see that are very, very run of the mill. You have an interview in an archive, interview in an archive, interview in an archive. Um, and we really want to tell a story [00:23:00] beyond that. We really want to take it from just that dry political timeline of just those events. And we really want to understand the emotion, or the impact on the people there, both kind of queer and non queer as well, because again, it affected everybody in New Zealand. We want to make this work visually stunning, because By creating a really good story, a really good visually stunning story, that's what will really help us get into those hearts and minds and, and, and into more audiences, and that second window of distribution I was talking about. There's also, [00:23:30] as I said before, a real focus on the people. That would include even the politicians who cross the floor, families, and the human stories. You know, as, as um, Andrew Whiteside has actually, um, He's made the comment that this was a, a, a coming out for pretty much the entire country. And it, it's something that I, I would agree as well, and, and that, to be fair, that also takes across a broader spectrum of what was happening in the 1980s. We had tangibly changed in that 10 years. White New [00:24:00] Zealanders certainly, we had become more focused on race relations, we understood more about the treaty, um, and the colonizations and the effects that had happened on our, our indigenous people. Um, And so, the focus for us, and as I've mentioned before, the focus for us really is not just on what's happening politically, that information is relatively easy to get, but what was happening, you know, the people during the time, not just the activists, but the broader community that was out there. Does, does that answer your question? Absolutely. No, absolutely. [00:24:30] Absolutely it does. So looking forward, and I think you mentioned some of the things that you're looking for from the community to help out. How can people assist you? How can people, one, get involved if you want people getting involved? And how can they, uh, help make this happen? That is such a good question. Well, we cannot make this story happen without the community, and we've had such a good response from the community so far. Honestly, every time we speak to people, people who work in film and [00:25:00] people who do not work in film, not only do they think this is a great story to tell, even, again, if you just talk to them about the kinds of dry events that happened at the time, let alone the greater impacts. People have been very much, yep, we're behind you, we want to help. People have often said to us, why hasn't this happened before, similar to your question, because it seems like a no brainer, right? Um, so we're really grateful, it's been really heartening to have the, um, to have The, [00:25:30] you know, the goodwill of the community so far. But we do really need a lot of help. One is in that archive material I was talking to you before. And again, I'm putting that call out. But a lot of it will be to do with the fundraising coming up. And this is not just about asking people to dip inside their own pockets. This is about arming a community of social media warriors. This is, um, when we, when we, which we, we probably will be go inching towards a crowdfunding campaign at some stage. To make that work, we need the community to be social media warriors for us, to have to talk, have [00:26:00] conversations, to post and repost and share and convince and cajole people to, to, to help us there. Um, so that's one thing that's, that's really important. I think the other part of that is that we're very much open to philanthropy and even private investors. We're very open to having discussions with people about providing equity. So that's where people put in some money and then they hope to get money back in the back end. And I, and you know, normally a lot of documentaries are not really [00:26:30] commercially viable. This documentary, as we say in the film industry, has got legs. It's something that we really think will work. The interference that was happening by the American right with those really clear tangible links with what's happening in politics in Aotearoa right now, what's happening with trans people, but also Some of those other protest movements that are taking place. There are direct relatable Happenings and actions, but also lessons that can be taking place. So I do think this is something that's [00:27:00] got legs I do think it's a commercially viable work. So yes, we're very much open to having conversations with people about having private equity when we Our community sorry our social media our Facebook pages is already up and running And, um, through that we're really trying to create a community and that will become the nexus when we launch the crowdfunding campaign. That will be at the heart and centre of that campaign and so we need as many people in our community following that [00:27:30] page as we possibly can. So that's the help we require and we'd be really, really grateful for it. I think I'm going to answer my own question, but when I was asking you before about saying, um, well, why hasn't this been done before? And I think one of the reasons possibly is that, um, it actually takes years of passion from individuals like yourself. And I guess The question that I'm going to ask you is what is the passion for this project? Where does it come from for you? [00:28:00] the irony of this is When I first had the idea And again, this is an idea It's just an idea and I could not have made it without Marilyn and without the other people who have evolved Our other producer executive producer Alex Lee and of course Wellbeing's our director and and all the other people along the way have helped us Um, the, the passion initially came again from just seeing this as just seeing those events on the timeline and just seeing how if, you know, we have generative AI now we even have [00:28:30] generative AI in the space of video making and you could just literally put that timeline into AI and it would probably come up with a really compelling documentary just from that. Um, but it's more than that. It's those hearts and minds, it's those personal stories, it's the heartbreak, it's the anguish. The other thing that excites me so much about this documentary is it is the only kind of queer emancipation movement that took place during the AIDS crisis. That AIDS crisis played an incredible part of this story. It was [00:29:00] something that was used by the right. Um, to, um, thought the actions. They, they, they use AIDS to scare the population. That we were all, I guess, People, um, who, who were a threat to society. Um, and, and to my mind too, it was really marked the, and this happened when I started to do the researching, before I even had begun the researching, when it was literally just a very small idea. What I didn't understand, that this is not just a story of woe, [00:29:30] of darkness, of sadness. It was an incredibly funny time. The activists were incredible at employing humour. Both humor and shock and interference in equal amounts. They really took care of themselves. There are some hilarious stories out there. It's uh, in Ticky Instone's words, they knew the Salvation Army songs better than the Salvation Army did. And they would sing those songs regularly with their hilarious placards and costumes outside the Citadel, um, during the 1980s, [00:30:00] um. And it's those kinds of stories that were both something that Really marked how that activism took place, but also their real focus on looking after their own community. Because they had to. It was 16 months of hard slog and the only way that you could get those activists to keep doing their work, was to look after their own, their own needs. Because you had people dying from AIDS, you had people committing suicide, because there was such a [00:30:30] huge focus on being gay that had not existed. That meant that a lot of people were in the firing line. And so, for me, that's a really exciting part about this, is this whole grassroots initiative, the way that we looked after ourselves, the way that we employed strategy. To be quite honest, the right, they, they threw all their kind of, uh, I guess shot all their bullets in the very beginning. But we. We kept a consistent, um, strategy going on the entire time and we did that through [00:31:00] humour and we did that through being really close and looking after ourselves at the same time, so. Um, it's an incredible story, it's a magnificent story and I can't wait for it to be on the big screen.

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TITLE: Harry Dynes valedictorian speech
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VOICES: Harry Dynes
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Blue Mountain College; Harry Dynes; Tapanui; anxiety; depression; docking/tailing; family; fear; friends; gay; gratitude; head boy; head prefect; identity; joyfulness; kapa haka; public speaking; secret; sexual identity; social anxiety; speech; swimming
DATE: 12 December 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Blue Mountain College, State Highway 90, Tapanui
CONTEXT: Harry Dynes delivers his valedictorian speech as head boy of Blue Mountain College in 2023. During the speech Dynes talks about his sexuality, coming out publicly as gay for the first time. A special thanks to Harry and family for allowing this recording to shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: December 2023
TEXT: A year full of joy, laughter, and overcoming challenges along the way. To hold the role of head boy for 2023 has been a pleasure to say the very least. Standing up here to give my farewell speech is a bittersweet feeling for me. I'm sad to be leaving this amazing school which has given me so much, but I'm also incredibly eager and excited to see what the world has to offer me. To put into words the impact that this school has had on my life is going to be difficult, but I'll give it a try. I'd like to begin with [00:00:30] the thank yous. You guys surely know how much I appreciate you, but I'll say it here, so everybody knows how amazing you truly are. Firstly, thank you to mum, dad, and my four sisters for getting me this far in life. You've provided me with anything I could ever need and want in this world, including bucket loads of love, support, and the occasional filling of my car's fuel tank. I would also like to thank Ms. Cave, Mr. Davies, and Mrs. Vins. I'll be eternally [00:01:00] grateful for the influence you three have had on my life so far, as well as the opportunity you've given me to lead this school. I hope that I've made you all proud this year, and know that I'll continue to strive to do so in the future. Last, but certainly not least, I'd like to say a special thank you to Mrs. Hanna. Mrs. Hanna is incredible. She represents all the qualities that anyone should aspire to hold. Selflessness, integrity, and an unwavering amount of [00:01:30] compassion for others. Throughout my whole time here at BMC, and particularly this year, Mrs. Hanna has been the one to turn to if I've ever needed advice on anything and everything. She knows a lot. She was the one who gave me the nudge and encouragement to put my name forward for Head Boy and instilled great belief in me that I could actually do it. Though I know you don't like to be made the fuss of, and are probably hating that we're shining the spotlight on you right now. I hope you know that not only myself, but the [00:02:00] whole school appreciates all that you do for us, day in day out. So, thank you. Now, to my speech. I put my name forward for the position of head boy because of the opportunities that it could potentially provide me. Opportunities which I didn't want to pass up. [00:02:30] I didn't want to look back on my final year of high school and think, I wish I had tried that, or I should have given that a shot. Instead, I wanted to spend my final year exploring everything this school has to offer, and leave with no regrets. My goals for this year were to respect and uphold the role of head boy, and to leave it better than I found it, just as previous head boys had done. A lot of people here are probably not aware, but I've suffered from pretty intense anxiety my whole life. Anxiety is [00:03:00] awful. It's not just feeling nervous and not being able to relax, it's so much more than that. It's having uncontrollable worry and unwanted thoughts that you just can't get unstuck from. It's like living with a bully in your mind that judges your every move, criticizing yourself for the smallest mistakes. I spend every minute of every day struggling to deal with these little issues that are likely to seem silly to most of you. For example, a couple years ago, as part of our tool preparations, we had to do tailing to raise money. [00:03:30] Over this time, I somehow developed a fear of opening gates from paddock to paddock. Now, I can't explain what created this strange fear. I guess that's just how anxiety works. But I can guarantee you that I didn't open a single gate throughout those three years. Thanks to my fantastic on the spot reasoning, I did all it needed to avoid even the tiniest potential of opening a gate. Whether it was bribing my friends with chocolate, sitting in the back of my dad's ute and insisting that I [00:04:00] did not want to sit in the front. Or strategically arranging myself in a vehicle that had no possibility of being required for the gate opening expertise. I even got so desperate that sometimes I would move my weekend shifts around at the Foursquare so I had to miss tailing. What I'm trying to say is that I gave up, allowing my overwhelming fear of this basic action to overcome me. Now, I didn't just tell you that embarrassing story about myself for nothing. I have a point, I promise. [00:04:30] Over the year, and as I was preparing for this speech, I made a list of things I'd overcome and plan to overcome. These things may seem minor or insignificant to you, but they mean a lot to me. This list includes things like completing a year 13 tramp, joining kapa haka, speaking in front of the school in assemblies, and participating in swimming sports for the first time in my 12 year schooling journey. I did all of that. Where am I? This year, the role of head [00:05:00] boy and the responsibilities that have brought me challenged my anxiety like nothing in my life before. I had now gone from just an ordinary student, ordinary student, to a leader in the school. Oh, where am I? And I needed to push myself outside of my comfort zone. Or else, what kind of name was I, what kind of name was I leaving myself here at BMC? A head boy who avoided any kind of fear and did everything it required to ignore it? I knew that this year I had to step up. [00:05:30] What makes this list of things I've accomplished so special and important to me is that unlike the opening of the Gates gig at Tailing, I did not escape it, nor did anybody else do it for me. Instead, I stood up and overcame it on my own, with the support of those around me, of course. This list of mine still has a couple of unticked boxes, but I'm confident they'll be checked off very shortly. Along with the anxiety, Another thing I've struggled with for well as long as I can remember, [00:06:00] but particularly throughout my time here at BMC, has been my identity. Since I was quite young, perhaps the age of about 8 or 9, I've known that I didn't exactly fit in like everybody else. I knew that I was gay. Around ten years have gone by since that realization, and it's not until I'm standing up here in front of you all today that I actually say it out loud. So surprised. [00:06:30] Keeping this secret hidden for so long has been one of the most painful and exhausting parts of my life. It's difficult to explain the feeling it's given me, but to put it simply, it's as if I was just existing, rather than living. I felt like I was constantly lying to my friends and family, and I've struggled to connect with them because I've essentially been living a lie. Making friendships has been the most challenging part, as I've never been able to show anyone the real me. Although it's [00:07:00] taken me so long to say the words, I've always known that I was supported by everyone around me. And really, it's been up to me to be bold, courageous, and just to be myself. Values that have been instilled in me all my life. Both at home, and here at school. So to finally be me, and get rid of this heavy secret, is a relief. Now that I've admitted who I truly am, I feel as though my life can finally begin. This list of mine is nearly complete, which is something I never [00:07:30] saw myself doing, despite dreaming of doing it for so long. As I said earlier, it is really difficult to express the impact that this school has had on my life, and who I am today. To most of you it probably seems as though I've just given you my whole life story. Which I guess is true. But this unbelievable and terrifying list simply demonstrates what can be accomplished when you surround yourself around people who genuinely care about the person you are and want to be. The support has come from both my friends, [00:08:00] both my family, the teachers, and my friends at this incredible school. Thanks to these people, I am standing up here as the most true and pure version of myself. I am leaving this school knowing exactly what I am capable of, and ready to face the world, no matter how frightening it might seem. And with that, my list is complete. So thank you.

IRN: 3679
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_studies_now_swakshadip_sarkar.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004970
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1107381
TITLE: Swakshadip Sarkar - Rainbow Studies Now
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Swakshadip Sarkar
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Rainbow Studies Now: Legacies of Community (2023); Swakshadip Sarkar; access to health care; asylum; asylum seeker; gender affirming healthcare; gender affirming services; persecution
DATE: 23 November 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington, Kelburn Parade, Kelburn, Wellington
CONTEXT: Swakshadip Sarkar presents at the Rainbow Studies Now symposium, held on 23 November 2023 at Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: December 2023
TEXT: So I'm Swakshadip, and I'm a PhD student at the School of Social and Cultural Studies at Tehranga Waka. Uh, so today I'll be speaking, uh, I mean, I'll be focusing on a small part of my PhD. Uh, so my, uh, PhD project is broadly looking at the experiences of trans asylum seekers who are coming to this country. Uh, And their experiences during the asylum seeking process, as well as after they have gained refugee status, uh, with, uh, [00:00:30] different institutions such as healthcare, uh, education, housing, employment, and, uh, other such institutions. So, uh, firstly, I think I'll, uh, give a brief background of why trans people come here to seek asylum, and I think, uh, this is an extension from the keynote lecture that you had in the morning. Uh, so I won't go into the numbers. So, uh, Yeah, so a lot of trans people come here because, uh, they are escaping persecution, uh, in their home countries, uh, [00:01:00] where they're, uh, uh, persecuted under various legislations, uh, that could be, uh, anti homosexuality laws, anti crossdressing laws, and, uh, so and so. So, uh, many trans people, uh, come here, although, uh, out here in New Zealand receives a very small number as compared to other European nations or probably the U. S. or Canada. Uh, so, uh, yeah, many, uh. Trans people come here to pursue the Asylum [00:01:30] claims and get a Conventional Refugee Status if they are accepted, their Asylum claims are accepted. So in this presentation, I'm going to sort of look at how the Asylum decisions are shaped and the major themes that are presented. are taken into consideration during the asylum claims. So, uh, as a part of my PhD, I'm sort of focusing on a lot of things, uh, organizational interviews. So basically interviews with people, uh, like who are, uh, you know, like associated with advocacy for trans asylum [00:02:00] seekers, also interviews with, uh, trans asylum seekers themselves and, uh, case law analysis using multiple case studies research. So the, this is the thing that I'll be focusing on for today. Cool. So I think I'll talk about my methodology, uh, for a bit. So, uh, I mainly collected, uh, the case laws from New Zealand Legal Information Institute and Ministry of Justice Database. And uh, the main challenge there was a very limited public availability of relevant [00:02:30] cases. So I only got like 12 relevant cases, whereas of course this is not the number of people that seek asylum here. So basically, uh, firstly, Aotearoa doesn't release. the exact count of trans people coming here and seeking asylum. So it's kind of subsumed within a rainbow asylum seekers. So there's no exact count for trans asylum seekers particularly. Also, uh, Autera also doesn't release all the case laws. So only a few selected are, uh, [00:03:00] made available in the public domain. So, and, uh, in my communication with MBI as well, uh, they mentioned that, uh, I couldn't get access to things that are not publicly available. So, yeah, so that was a challenge. So, uh, uh, the case laws I got, uh, were spanning from 1999 to 2021. And, uh, uh, between 1999 and 2010, all the cases that were available were from Thai nationals. Uh, and, uh, afterwards from 2011 to 2021, there was, [00:03:30] uh, there were two cases from, uh, Chinese nationals. Uh, one case each from Indian, Samoan, Fijian, South African, and British nationals. Uh, And of course, uh, I sort of tried to, uh, avoid oversimplification because of course, uh, asylum claims, uh, I mean, involves a lot of things. So it's not just gender, but also a lot of other things taken into consideration. So I sort of tried to oversimplify it, uh, and, uh, uh, really just focused on, uh, the [00:04:00] relevant themes that also has appeared in like international migration literature as well. Cool. So. Cool. Cool. So, I think I got, uh, a few, uh, themes, uh, analyzing the case law. So, uh, the first one is country of origin information. The second one is genuine link to Aotearoa. The third one is, uh, need for gender affirming services, which is, of course, uh, uh, primary thing for, uh, many trans asylum seekers who are coming here, uh. And, uh, fourth one was second protection claim. [00:04:30] So this is basically when a trans person has already, uh, like got asylum status or a refugee status, uh, like somewhere in the world. And then they come here to, for, uh, you know, like second protection claim. So, and, uh, then mental health. So, but for this presentation, I think I'll be focusing on the first three because this came up in like almost every case law I analyzed. Cool. So I think firstly, I'll talk about country of origin information. So, uh, the country of origin [00:05:00] information, of course, plays a very important role in determining asylum claims, uh, with the availability and reliability of country of origin information being very crucial. Unlike some countries like the UK and France, New Zealand lacks a concrete system for determining country of origin information. So, uh, and, uh, the responsibility for, uh, providing all the, uh, documents, uh, which, you know, like, uh, like portraits, persecution is on the shoulders of the applicant. So, it's for the applicant to determine whether, you know, like, [00:05:30] they're, uh, escaping persecution or, you know, like, how they're being persecuted rather than, uh, New Zealand having that sort of documents or, like, country of origin information. Uh, so, uh, uh, the study sort of highlighted the inadequacy of country of origin information in capturing unique circumstances. For instance, cases involving Thai asylum seekers portrayed Thailand as a very open democracy, uh, despite discrimination against, uh, transgender and gender variant individuals. Employment rights and legal gender [00:06:00] recognition were denied in Thailand at that point, uh, when, uh, these people were coming, uh, here to seek asylum. And also, uh, that constituted potential persecution according to international human rights standards, but that wasn't, uh, taken into consideration as such by, uh, authorities here in New Zealand. Uh, also in the case of an Indian applicant, the decision portrayed that India recognized third gender and had implemented transgender rights at 2019. However, uh, [00:06:30] uh, the, the decision, uh, didn't really take into consideration the complexities associated with this act and, uh, and this act, uh, while it appears protective on the surface, it lacked, uh, enforcement mechanisms. And this was completely ignored by the immigration and protection tribunal. Uh, Also, it also highlighted the influence of an individual's country of origin and their, on their asylum claim assessment. So for example, uh, uh, [00:07:00] Of course, we are aware of the broader theme, especially last year when there were a lot of Ukrainian refugees coming into Europe and how there was, uh, like a discussion on like how Ukrainian refugees are treated differently from like other asylum seekers or refugees. So uh, that's the same here in New Zealand as well. So in New Zealand, nationality played a significant role in evaluating an applicant's contributions and vulnerabilities. For example, an applicant from the United Kingdom. with IT skills, received very favorable treatment, while an Indian applicant with the same [00:07:30] qualifications faced different considerations, uh, and was, uh, ultimately denied protection, and, uh, this demonstrates how skill and vulnerability assess differently based on nationality. And so then I'll move to genuine link to Otterwa or belonging to Otterwa. Uh, so the concept of belonging and genuine link to the host country is a very crucial theme in, uh, assessing the credibility of asylum claims both in New Zealand and globally. Uh, and this theme becomes very evident [00:08:00] in response to refugee crisis where belonging often hinges on shared characteristics like ethnicity, race, religion, or country of origin. And again, Ukrainian crisis is, uh, example of this as well. So, uh. In New Zealand, establishing a general link to the country holds a central place in the refugee status determination process. Authorities consider whether asylum claimants would face persecution upon returning to their countries of origin. Uh. And in the case laws examined in this study, asylum [00:08:30] claimants consistently established a sense of belonging in New Zealand through relationships with partners, friends, and family members. For example, in the case of a South African citizen, the asylum claimant's connection with family members in their home country had been severed, while all close relatives, including their mother, resided in New Zealand. So, a return to their home country would leave them without any support. both financially and emotionally. Similarly, in the case of the applicant from the UK, the appellant's [00:09:00] close relatives, including their mother and nephew, lived in New Zealand. So, and their deportation to their home country would place a burden on their mother who relied on them for care. However, having some form of of link or family support in their home countries could complicate asylum claims, as seen in some other cases. So in the case of a Samoan applicant, the strength of family ties in New Zealand was assessed based on the appellant's disclosure of their trans identity. to their family members. Uh, [00:09:30] the evaluation appeared to follow the westernized notions of coming out and emphasizing individuality and overlooking, uh, non Western perspectives of selfhood and identity. Similarly, in the case of an Indian applicant, the appellants break up with their partner, who was a New Zealand citizen, and their connection with their family in their home country were viewed as indications that they had more, uh, belonging to India than to New Zealand. In, Asylum claims basically any form of belonging in the home country is viewed negatively, uh, with the [00:10:00] expectation that claimants demonstrate strong ties in New Zealand through relationships with citizens or residents. Uh, and, uh, then the last theme I'll focus on is a need for gender affirming services. Uh, so as we all know, the process of transitioning and, uh, gender, accessing gender affirmative care is a very crucial aspect of the experiences faced by a lot of trans people, uh, and, uh, including those who seek asylum as well. So transitioning procedures, including hormone therapy and [00:10:30] surgeries, help transgender people to alleviate gender dysphoria, but in most legal discourses, it's often seen as being committed to their failed gender identity, uh. Um, in the context of asylum claims, the desire to transition has played a significant role in determining outcomes, particularly in the USA, where successful claimants often express their intent to undergo transition procedures, including surgical interventions. In contrast, asylum claims by transgender individuals who did not wish to undergo through [00:11:00] transition procedures face denial, with the courts emphasizing that the desire to dress as the opposite gender alone does not establish transgender identity. However, in New Zealand, among the 12 cases, uh, which was assessed, uh, in this study, uh, 10 indicated that the asylum claimants were either undergoing or had undergone transition procedures such as hormone therapy or sex reassignment surgery. Uh, so the desire to access these procedures as a central reason, uh, uh, the desire to access these [00:11:30] procedures was a central reason for their, uh, wish to remain in this country where such care was either unavailable or Highly inaccessible in their home countries. So in one case, the appellant who is a trans man from South Africa, uh, did not want to undergo transition procedures due to concerns about the unavailability of appropriate technology to achieve their desired body. However, despite their gender dysphoria, they were identified as a woman in the case laws and feminine pronouns were used consistently.[00:12:00] In the cases of Fijian and Samoan applicants. These people highlighted the lack of access to gender affirmative care in their home countries, Fiji and Samoa, respectively. They faced financial barriers to obtaining hormones and surgery, often resorting to unsafe means to acquire hormones. The absence of medical supervision in their home countries posed physiological and psychological risks. However, during their hearing with the Immigration and Protection Authority, Tribunal. Uh, [00:12:30] the tribunal acknowledged that infrastructure constraints in Fiji and Samoa exists. However, it concluded that the appellants will still have access to general health care. Uh, Um, and, uh, the, uh, Immigration Protection Tribunal did not prioritize gender affirmative care as a compelling reason to stay in New Zealand or seek asylum. So, and this stance is very inconsistent with Principle 17 of the Yogyakarta Principles recognizing the right to the highest attainable gender affirmative care as a basic human right for transgender [00:13:00] individuals. So, uh. In conclusion, uh, transitioning and accessing gender affirmative care are significant factors in asylum claims by transgender asylum seekers. While some countries like the USA prioritize these considerations, the Immigration Protection Tribunal in New Zealand has not consistently recognized transitioning as a primary reason for seeking asylum. Rather, sometimes they are seen to be constraining the public health system and denied asylum status based on that, as [00:13:30] it was revealed in a few of my organizational interviews, which I'm still working on. And this divergence in approach underscores the need for greater awareness of transgender rights and healthcare access as essential components of asylum claims. Uh, thank you for listening and I, I'm open to web questions and answers.

IRN: 3678
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_studies_now_sidney_wong.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004969
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1107380
TITLE: Sidney Wong - Rainbow Studies Now
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Sidney Wong
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Chinese; Chinese migration; Queer Asian identity; Sidney Wong; immigration; racialization; racism; repression; solidarity
DATE: 23 November 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington, Kelburn Parade, Kelburn, Wellington
CONTEXT: Sidney Wong presents at the Rainbow Studies Now symposium, held on 23 November 2023 at Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: December 2023
TEXT: Tēnā koutou, ko te mihi tuatai ki ngā mana whenua o tēnei rohe, um, Te Ā ti Awa. Ko ae au, he ure hau nō Haina ki te Tonga, he Hainamara a hau i whānau mā au i te Awakairangi Tāi, engari kei Ōtūtahi a hau e noho ana inai nei. Kia ora! Lovely to meet you all. I've been thinking a lot about how do I start this talk, you know, [00:00:30] um, and I thought maybe, you know, today we're talking about queer Asian and maybe I thought I'd share something fairly personal, is that despite Loha, my parents don't actually know I'm here. Cause, that's one thing, is that, you know, for us who inhabit these different closets, um, sometimes it's a bit of a balancing act. Sometimes it's about trying to, you know, trying to understand how these sort of different identities interplay and, and so I just want to share that with you, um, just so, you know, we get sort [00:01:00] of like, have a feel of what today's discussion is going to be about. Um, so we all come from somewhere. Uh, we all have genealogy, we all have family history, um, this is a map of, um, so this is a map of the migration of the Wongs, uh, throughout history. So this goes back to 900 AD, and it talks about how one cousin or one sibling decided that they no longer wanted to be part of this journey, so, you know, they've sort of like, you know, [00:01:30] stopped, established themselves, created a village, and that's family history. This is the heritage that I talk about when I talk about my Cantonese Chinese identity. And I think, um, you know, it's a bit of a catfish today when I talk about Asian identity. Because as we, sort of, as I go through the different slides, as I, we go through the story of my journey, this ongoing journey, we kind of realize that this term doesn't exist. It's something that's been put on me and put on our communities. So, [00:02:00] first of all, I just want to say a content warning, um, it's going to be a little bit heavy, um, it's only 15 minutes, so hopefully it's, you know, short, but also please take care of yourselves. There's, um, you know, we'll talk about homophobia, racism, racial slurs, um, and also transphobia and violence, so just please, you know, um, take care of yourself and I'll let you know if I'm going to, you know, if anything that's going to be quite triggering. But first of all, as I said, as stated in my intro, I'm a linguist, so I'm a stickler for definitions, so, what do I mean [00:02:30] by queer? Um, and I thought, instead of going through the classic, sort of like, you know, what does it mean to be queer from like, sort of this framework, um, I found this book when I was in Mumbai, by this author, Sharif, who talks it very clearly. You know, deeply about their relationship between queerness and their transnational identity as an Indian person from India and Thailand. And I thought it was just such a beautiful way to sum it up, that queerness exists outside the box. It is defined by the indefinite, [00:03:00] the expanse, the width and length, the roundness of the earth. It is colored by colors. It isn't one color. So seeing things from a queer standpoint or lens or view isn't about one ideal thought either. It is as diverse as it can get. It recognises that there are many ways to live as there are many ways to die. I've defined queer now, but what about Asian? As I said earlier, this term is a bit of a misnomer. It's a statistical tool. It's a way that we've been sort of packaged very nicely so we know [00:03:30] how many of these others we have in the room. You know, we have to think about these different concepts and frameworks of why do we have these terms in the first place. Uh, so, you know, we can go to the, uh, refer to the U. S. and think about concepts like racialization, you know, to signify the extension of a racial meaning to a previously racially unclassified relationship, social practice, or group, Asian. Who are they? [00:04:00] We can also think of racial formation, the socio historical process by which racial identities are created, lived out, transformed, and destroyed. But, closer to home, we can think of Asian as another way of grouping the others. The racial invisibility of Pākehā in society means for non white Tau iwi, non Māori, this often results in a default assimilation process which is facilitated by human capital model [00:04:30] of migration. That map that you saw doesn't exist. Asian. And so, as I said, you know, even though in the title it says that we're talking about coercion, I have to be specific. I can only draw on my own experience, my own histories. And I want to talk a little bit about the story of Chinese in Aotearoa and how we've been subjugated and how a person like me has ended up being in a closet, in a closet. The [00:05:00] Chinese who lived, lived with contradictory expectations. To be motivated but not assertive, to excel academically but not be competitive with mainstream New Zealanders, to know one's place. So I think for those who are familiar with, you know, being part of our rainbow queer communities, we're very familiar with the closet. It's this metaphysical description of being enclosed, being trapped, being, saying that you do exist but you don't exist at the same [00:05:30] time. And, in a similar way, and as I, it's been a journey trying to sort of understand and, you know, my identity, but also in terms of my queer identity, what it means to be Cantonese, you know, I found, oh, actually, we start thinking about the closet. Many of our ethnic communities also inhabit a closet. We're Asian, we're Mila, whatever that term means, we're Pasifika, whatever that term means. And so, With the little time we have, [00:06:00] we're going to have a look, we're going to go on a journey. Um, as Confucius said, Wan gui ji san, ka mua ka muri. We can only understand or see our future if we understand our past. And so, on this journey, so like, you know, thinking about sort of how, why people leave. You know, for me, for my family, they experience. Pandemics, uh, famine, uh, civil wars. They left because they wanted to survive and thrive. You know, I [00:06:30] imagine when they sort of look at the river, they look at this gate onto the West River. This is the last thing they saw as they leave, as they left. And for them it wasn't directly to Aotearoa. It was through Macau, a Portuguese colony. Then through Hong Kong, a British colony. And then now our third colony, New Zealand, Aotearoa. And I think of all these sort of these early Chinese came to Aotearoa who, many are nameless, faceless. We do have registers. Um, but I think about this, [00:07:00] this hut in Arrowtown. This was the sort of condition they were living in. They were told that They were excluded, they weren't allowed to live in the city, in Arrowtown. This was on the side of the river. And so I think of this expression, uh, Wailong Chowlian, which means to find warmth around a stove. And, it's true. You know, for many of them, they did find warmth. Not only around a stove, but, uh, you know, with other people. And as we know, and, you know, through history, which we talked about [00:07:30] earlier, many of this history has been erased. This, and around, sort of, uh, 2000 BC, when the first book burning, sorry, the book burning happened with the, uh, Yellow Emperor. And then later on in, around the 1950s during the Cultural Revolution. But we know that these queer identities, relationships, expressions of life existed. But they were reprimanded. You know, um, I'm not going to go through this whole quote, but basically, as I was going [00:08:00] through this journey, originally thinking about what does it mean to be a Chinese New Zealander, again and again, I saw these reports, court reports saying that, you know, so and so had been doing indecent acts, unnatural acts, things that are beyond reproach, things we can't mention. Of course, what it meant was that these people who were together were Engaging in a way that we're very non Christian, something that was not valued, something that we don't want in this country that we're trying to develop, that wants to exclude these others. And [00:08:30] so, um, I know I don't have a lot of time, but, you know, I'm just going to go through like, sort of like some of the legislation that has sort of, this is the playbook of how you exclude a community. Um, oh, sorry, trigger warning. But, yeah, so, you know, in terms of these identities, you know, they were, you know, seen as the other, they're the bad ones. Don't be like them. You minorities, look at those people over there. They're other. They're wrong. They're unnatural. We need to exclude them. This is not what we [00:09:00] want on this land. And so if we look at this, uh, representation, um, from, uh, from the newspaper back in around sort of the late 1800s. This is a representation of a Chinese person, you know, wrapping their limbs around this Māori wāikīne which was supposed to parallel Britannica. And so like, you know, the term I want to draw your attention to is licentiousness, sexual depravity, you know, these ways of being that are so disgusting, that's a monster worth the rid of. And so I [00:09:30] don't have a lot of. A time, but you know, you make, you exclude them, you make it expensive, 10 pounds, that's about 600 New Zealand dollars. You increase it, um, you make it up to 100 pounds, 20, 000 New Zealand dollars, current, you know, current currency. You make it expensive, you make it so that only they can come, that their families can't come, that their children can't come, that their relations can't come. And then you say that, hey, now you have to do an English tip. [00:10:00] And, um, later on they realized, well, actually there are British citizens like our, um, you know, British citizens who are not welcome either. So let's extend this and say that only Anglo, so Anglo British can come to this country. Um, and so like, you know, as we sort of like go through this journey and start thinking about sort of why there's like, there's this invisibility of these sort of identities, you can think, well. They were told they're not welcome, they'd been [00:10:30] excluded, they'd been diminished, and now you're welcome to establish a community with, you know, and sort of, and there's no coincidence, there's no Chinatowns here, there's no coincidence, there's no Little India, you know, there's no enclaves because we're told to be invisible, to disappear. And so, as you establish your roots, Lok Te Sangan, so like to, lay down, lay your roots, establish a community, you know, you try and, you disappear. You know, the more successful Chinese became, the more invisible they needed [00:11:00] to be to counteract the effects of being seen as a threat and thus narrowing the threshold tolerance level. You, spread out. You know, don't form a community. You know, you, you have, you see a takeaway here, see a shop here, okay, we'll move somewhere else. We don't want to be grouped together because we don't want to be seen as a threat. Uh, avoid incidents. I don't want to be involved in things. If there's something, if something happens to me, I don't want to go to the police, I don't want to cause a stir, I don't want to be [00:11:30] involved in politics. You normalise. I say I'm Kiwi, now I'm New Zealand. I am, I speak English. I don't have these odd cultural practices that you've told me that are wrong. You act passively. You don't exist. You sit in the corner, and you live. Because you're grateful to survive. And so, I think about, so for the last two days I've been at the Rainbow Takakui, um, [00:12:00] Uenuku, so at the Rainbow Rites, um, sort of, at the Rainbow Rites Conference up in Tama, Kokoro, and I think to myself as I'm sitting in the room, why do I always feel like, you know, I've been told I take up too much space as, you know, the Chinese person, as the Asian. I should be making room for more people to come into these spaces. I'd love to, I'd love to be at home watching TV, drinking wine, bake off, what not. But why have we been told that we have to shut up and [00:12:30] buck up? But we're turning the tides here. So we, there are a lot of groups out there trying to sort of make change, trying to sort of reconnect with our heritage, reconnect with our culture, our language. You know, try and form a sense of community. But how can we do that when so much of that has been told that you don't belong, that you shouldn't speak up and be, um, proud of your identity? And I just want to sort of, um, you know, shout out to these organizations that were [00:13:00] formed. Some very, uh, you know, they formed, but then sort of disbanded. But they existed to help queer Asians form a sense of identity. And so. One, two, yeah, Mihi, I, I, yeah, IOPNZ, Arka Aotearoa, China Pride, Proud Campaign, Rainbow Path, Ethnic Rainbow Alliance. These organisations are trying to sort of like, understand what is the means of our identity when so much of that history and genealogy and heritage has been taken away from us. [00:13:30] And so, I come to my last slide, which hopefully meets the 15 minute threshold, but I'll, I, I sort of impart you with this last idiomatic expression. And what that means is to respect our ancestors, our elders, our , in order to nurture those who come after us. And so as we go on this journey, as we try and sort of reconnect with our different heritage, with our culture, with our language, with the people who we here, who no longer, [00:14:00] uh, the forgotten histories, as we try and sort of like bring these stories to light, that's what we need to do. We need to honor the histories. And on that note, I just want to end with this again. So solidarity, stand without faltering. We are here, our identities and communities exist, and we will not fall, and we'll stand by other communities who require our allyship and support. Thank you.

IRN: 3677
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_studies_now_rebekah_galbraith.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004968
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1107379
TITLE: Rebekah Galbraith - Rainbow Studies Now
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Rebekah Galbraith
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Rainbow Studies Now: Legacies of Community (2023); Rebekah Galbraith; autoethnographic writing; autoethnography; counterpublics; cultural transformation; heteronormativity; perverse presentism; queer literature; queer theory
DATE: 23 November 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington, Kelburn Parade, Kelburn, Wellington
CONTEXT: Dr Rebekah Galbraith presents at the Rainbow Studies Now symposium, held on 23 November 2023 at Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: December 2023
TEXT: So, modern fiction, uh, the queer autobiography. Uh, so today, um, I'm, I'm gonna use, uh, a white fella. Uh, uh, uh, today I'm using Jack Halberstam's, uh, model of historical analysis, uh, perverse presentism, uh, as a lens for reading contemporary queer auto neutrality. auto ethnographic writing. Um, why do we caution, uh, against something like queer presentism, right? That act of reading historical representations of queer identity through a contemporary lens, uh, as if we are [00:00:30] constantly moving towards an ideal moment of triumph, right? This is the it gets better argument of queer history, that queer experiences are fundamentally oriented towards equality and liberation. Um, and Halberstam's model explicitly, uh, avoids the trap of simply projecting contemporary understandings back in time, uh, but likewise invites us to, quote, apply insights of the present to conundrums of the past. Halberstam introduces this model to explore pre 20th century [00:01:00] lesbianism and gender. Uh, so perverse presentism aligns itself to that Foucauldian idea of history of the present, while avoiding the pitfalls of literary historians who seek to find what they already think they know. At its core, perverse presentism is an application of what we do not know in the present to what we cannot know about the past. So, with that in mind, uh, my paper will examine new approaches to queer autoethnographic writing in three contemporary narratives, uh, Paul B. [00:01:30] Preciado's An Apartment on Uranus, uh, Jen Shaplin's My Autobiography of Carson McCullers, and Selby Wynn Schwartz's, uh, After Sappho. Each text catalogues and organises queerness as a cultural exploration, demonstrating the critical value of queer models of self representation. Reflecting on Lauren Berlant and Michael Warner's claim for a new public knowledge system of queer intimacies and experiences, these are texts that add to a growing scholarship of queer and trans counterpublics [00:02:00] produced outside the dominant framework of the heteronormative. Uh, Proshoda chronicles his gender transition amid global socio political and techno scientific changes, uh, mobilizing his call for a new cognitive framework to negotiate another order of queer existence. As an archivist, Chaplin's memoir relocates Carson McCullough's queerness within her own, memorializing the unfinished and misremembered. Similarly, Schwartz's speculative history [00:02:30] after Sappho reimagines and fragments the lives of dozens of women, Lena Poletti, Colette, Virginia Woolf, Isadora Duncan, at the turn of the 20th century, exploring past queer lives through a modern lens. In considering the limits of presentism, this paper will explore the broader questions of an exclusively queer literary history, uh, and the critical and cultural value of the intervening queer subject. Um, contemporary readings of camp iconography, such as my [00:03:00] autobiography of Carson McCullers, and after Sappho problematized the notion of an explicitly queer literary, queer historiography, a subject recently explored in Hugh Lemmy and Ben Miller's Bad Gays, a Homosexual History, quote, Why do we choose to remember and why do we choose to forget? In this way, Preciado's text models Halberstam's perverse presentism, teasing that notion of disidentification as a tenant of the queer cultural experience, a Uranian ideal [00:03:30] where his body is transgressive, trans historical, a connective sequencing of form and memory. His central conceit, an apartment on Uranus, is the locus of queer potentiality existing beyond all taxonomies of modern identification, right, impossible, unattainable, and revolutionary. So the title of this paper, Modern Fiction, um, lends itself from an essay by Virginia Woolf, uh, first appearing in 1919 as Modern Novels in the Times Literary Supplement, [00:04:00] uh, and later revised, uh, for the first Common Reader series in 1925, about the same time that Mrs. Dalloway comes out. Um, across her novels and short stories and criticism, Woolf threads this very intricate argument for a new way of reading and indeed writing, uh, writing and indeed reading, um, the unknowable, right? Socratic unexamined life in modern fiction wolf expresses dissatisfaction with the state of contemporary writing and reminds young novelists that quote There is no limit to the horizon and [00:04:30] nothing and that nothing no method No experiment even of the wildest is forbidden, but only falsity and pretense For Wolfe, the unknown and uncircumcised, uncircumscribed spirit of the novelist is a lens into the role of the biographer, right? A craftsman, not an artist. She says, his work is not a work of art, but something betwixt and between. Of course, Wolfe's novel Orlando, a biography famous with sapphists the world over, is the longest love letter in history. It's the [00:05:00] West, right? It's a prime example of this betwixt and between. The novelist as biographer, um, is an important character I kind of want us to think about. I would like us to think and hold well central ideas around biography and fiction. The craftsman of writing a life, uh, both past and present, uh, and her posthumous claim that biography is, quote, only at the beginning of its career. So shifting away from the boundaries between fact and fiction on the page, I want to consider how the queer and trans body might construct itself [00:05:30] between these forms of writing. In Bodies That Matter, Judith Butler shifts their focus to the materialization of the body and the limits of sex, noting that bodies tend to indicate a world beyond themselves. But this movement beyond their own boundaries, a movement of the boundary itself, appears to be quite central to what bodies are, end quote. In an apartment on Uranus, Preciado's narrative of queer cultural production demonstrates that critical relationship between queer and trans bodies, and their integral role in developing alternate [00:06:00] temporalities. I'm going to talk about his chapter, Orlando on the Road, as a Preciado's way of raising that Wolfian notion of an atemporal biographer recording the self, the figure of the autobiographer who chronicles the crossings of these imaginary boundaries of form. For Preciado, it is Wolfe's Orlando, the way the character transcends the discursive boundaries of sex, and Wolfe's distinctive use of the inhuman, pre personal biographical form that let him consider the making of Paul. [00:06:30] What happens in the narrative life, narrative of a life when it is possible to change the main character's sex are foreshadowed. And from there he launches into an awareness of the difficulty of being alive to what happens, to caution against that Wolfian solitude. The inherent mistake of presentism, right, centering one's own history and transformation, and therein losing sight of new forms of knowledge making and post capitalist production invented under our very eyes.[00:07:00] In Sex in Public, Lauren Berlant and Michael Warner describe the cultural and critical impact of radical queer counterpublics and world building and the changed possibilities of identity that appear when the heterosexual couple is no longer the referent or privileged example of sexual culture. Heteronormative world making is connected to the market and the state and thereby central to the accumulation and reproduction of capital, where queer culture is one of self cultivation. My trans body does not exist, argues Preciado, [00:07:30] in the administrative protocols that guard the status of citizenship. As a way of being, to write from an apartment on Uranus is Prishadho staking Berlin and Waller's claim that an increased generation of queer knowledge and world making will support forms of effective, erotic and personal living that are public in the sense of accessible, available to memory and sustained through collective activity. This is summed up by Preciado's charge that he is not speaking of history here, but [00:08:00] rather of your lives, of his, of today. Like Wolfe constructing Orlando by endlessly making and remaking the body of Paul across a lifetime, uh, Preciado's call for a utopian gender positions his corporeal memory Uh, as symptomatic of this cultural retelling. Um, to borrow here from Maggie Nelson's The Argonauts, where the gendered body is endlessly made, remade, and unmade through the language of a desire, right? This elliptical reconstruction of the self as separative and unknown. [00:08:30] Uh, Pachaudo similarly characterizes the trans body as a site of cultural production, reappropriating historical narratives of persecution and deviance. Where Nelson delights in the stack of cocks at her partner Harry Dodge's bachelor pad, Prosciutto's Chronicle of the Crossing speaks to what Nelson's lover considers to be true, that quote, once we name something, we can never see it the same way again. Likewise, an apartment on Uranus achieves as a catalogue of post queer [00:09:00] embodiment is the excision of visibility, representation, the right of self determination and political recognition from the binary categories of self sexual difference, right, the Uranian descent of the sex gender system. The trans body is as interminable as it is unnameable, where, much like that stack of cocks, every transmogrification of Paul's corporeal form has its meaning renewed by its use. Right? The trans body does and does not exist.[00:09:30] So where does Let Leave text that explicitly engage with archival material? Uh, and to what extent does presentism mediate our reading of the archive as an organized catalog of identity, as experience, uh, as well as a queer corrective to the sexual politics of heteronormative order? Gin Chaplin's My Autobiography of Carson McCullers deliberately muddies the boundaries of autobiography as a genre. Uh, arguing that in order to tell another person's story, a writer must make that person [00:10:00] a version of herself. Uh, this is Chaplin's formal excuse, right? For finding a way to inhabit the misremem misremembered life of Carson McCullers and the deliberate fashioning of his self that hybridizes the writer as subject. Uh, Chaplin's portrait of McCullers is self sustaining. It's an exercise in cruising the stacks. An intern at the Harry Ransom Center, a writer's and artist's Uh, Archive at the University of Texas. Chaplin discovers love letters written to McCullers from Anna Marie Clarke Schwarzenbach, a [00:10:30] Swiss heiress with whom McCullers had an affair. Uh, what follows is Chaplin's analysis of how McCuller's, uh, impossible longings and self described feelings of unrequited love, uh, inform her own queer self discovery. For Chaplin, McCuller's is a proxy for her own closeting, the unacknowledged truth of her own identity. But to write of queer self discovery, of queerness in retrospect, but the subject as a version of the self, uh, is the antithesis to the archive as a living standardized [00:11:00] response to that information gap. Writing of a library fever in lesbian memoir and the sexual politics of order, Ben Nichols isolates this problematizing of queerness as exclusion in the archive by posing that following question. Quote, when it is lesbian lives that effect a system for categorizing and ordering, what are we to make of queer theory's aversion to the category? Writing about and through Carson McCullers as a version of her own self, Chaplin demonstrates how a presenter's representation seemingly undermines the act of [00:11:30] archiving and collecting, uh, the very tangible records of history she is paradoxically, uh, working to preserve. Um, so I'm, I'm wondering here, how is it that we are perpetually stuck in a cycle of reading for repression in a text like my autobiography of Carson McCullers, where the phantom of lesbian desire shelves the subject of McCullers and instead issues Chaplin, uh, as a post queer reader instead. The act of writing queerness, uh, of queer lives and [00:12:00] experiences, uh, positions history as a collective performance, inextricable from the present. Where the act of writing into being an explicitly queer cultural experience produces this hybridized, speculative literary kinship. And after Sappho, Selby Wynne Schwartz maps the queer lines and lineages of a post Sapphist textual voice. In a bibliographic note, Schwartz considers the text as both a work of fiction, as much as a hybrid of imaginaries and intimate non fictions, of speculative biographies, as to [00:12:30] have no recourse to a category at all. Moreover, Schwartz returns to the redrafting of Orlando and habits Wolfe as she skirts the impeccable lawns of Cambridge, arrives at the present again and again where Chloe famously likes Olivia. But fiction cannot be rushed into the future, says the Sibylline speaker, and Orlando troubles the boundaries of genre, a new biography composed beyond the limits of fiction. It was as mercurial in mood and ample in form as Orlando themselves. And every [00:13:00] time Orlando woke, there were many more lives. To read Orlando at the present time is to communicate through a lineage of silence and censorship, and Schwartz orients the central conceit of a shared collective embodiment, uh, through fragmented encounters with highly fictionalized sketches of Sappho, Colette, Romaine Brooks, Radcliffe Hall, Isadora Duncan, and more. These variations of Sappho voyage out across time, wherein the act of remembering on the page one noun is always thinking of another, refusing to forget her. [00:13:30] Um, the textual relations, uh, between the many man manifestations of Sappho, um, I think clearly illustrate Sarah Ahmed's work on queer phenomenology, right? The politics of disorientation over time, and the potential for quest for spatial disruption and disorder. So, I'd like to finish, um, uh, on collective, uh, performance all because fucking Virginia Woolf wrote my biography in 1928. So, this year, Whānau Māramā New Zealand International Film Festival [00:14:00] screened Prishardo's adaptation of Woolf's novel, Orlando, uh, my biographie politique. Uh, Prosciutto opens the film, someone once asked me, why don't you write your biography? He responds, because fucking Virginia Woolf wrote my biography in 1928. Who are the contemporary Orlandos? asked the film. Prosciutto's embodiment of Orlando is a collective performance of 26 trans and non binary cast members aged 8 to 70, where quote, Life is not a [00:14:30] biography, but a series of stages, consists of metamorphosis of one's self, letting one's self be transformed by time, to become not just other, another, but others. Right, going back to, to Paul Recroix, that idea of, of un autre pour les autres, right? An other for another. Um, My Biographie Politique, uh, is precisely what Wolfe had in mind when she wrote Modern Fiction, right? Art free from the constraint of form. What Preciado's queer orgy of Orlando's embody is a future being, possible not in fact, but in [00:15:00] fiction, and because of fiction. Thank you.

IRN: 3676
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_studies_now_maia_berryman_kemp.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004967
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1107378
TITLE: Maia Berryman-Kemp - Rainbow Studies Now
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VOICES: Maia Berryman-Kemp
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; 2020s; Maia Berryman-Kemp; Rainbow Studies Now: Legacies of Community (2023); Ta moko; body art; communal identity; identity; indigenous peoples; queer; self expression; symbolism; takatāpui; tattoo
DATE: 23 November 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington, Kelburn Parade, Kelburn, Wellington
CONTEXT: Maia Berryman-Kemp presents at the Rainbow Studies Now symposium, held on 23 November 2023 at Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: December 2023
TEXT: Kia ora. Ko Ranginui kei runga, ko Papatuanuku kei raro, ko ngā tāngata kei wānganui. Te korowai o te kaihanga, te korowai o māhinga, ko haraina mai i runga i a tātou. Kaore au te mōhio o kupu mārea, i ngāri, ko te māngainui au, me e tika ana kia mihi atu, kia mihi mai. The Abstract advertised a visual autoethnographic chronology, which is just kind of one too many syllables for people are really [00:00:30] nosy about my tattoos, and I thought that I'd use that to make sure I didn't talk to a bunch of empty seats. So, thank you for being nosy. To set out some scope, I recently counted and I have 36 tattoos, 37 as of next Friday. Just describing each one in a 30 second speedrun would take 18 minutes and would provide no valuable academic insight aside from I probably need a hobby. Because of this, I'm going to be pulling out specific tattoos, which highlights the idea of this presentation. The use of [00:01:00] body practices as a tool for bridging the self and the social. The idea of bodies as an intersect between society and people isn't new, and has been handled extensively through the works of Foucault, Butler, Halberstam, and a load of other white people. The idea of indigenous bodies being particularly potent for this divide, has also been addressed by a load of white people, typically in line with the argument that the natives are grounded bodies, therefore they are dense, and the civil European is a creature of the enlightened mind. I thought [00:01:30] the earth was flat, so that's going well. Queer theory has also flung the idea of a body self society around, typically with the postmodern flair that the discipline is known for. However, as with most work in this sector, there have been a series of invisible lines put in place. The native shall never, ever, ever, ever have control. They cannot understand. Their massive heads are simply too big for their thoughts to meet, and they just cross like ships in the night. Second, the truth of a person can be known, [00:02:00] and it's not like the entirety of existential philosophy in coming of age media is any indication this might not be the case. Third, you get to have one marginalized entity. You're either gender or you're native. As any social scientist will tell you, these lines are nonsense and a product of their various contexts. In reality, no one's brain is actually that remarkable, given we routinely derive entertainment from hen, cat, mate, funny. The quest for the self is a regrettably ongoing [00:02:30] expedition, and everyone identifies and is identified as everything all the time post modernism. Yay. Bearing in mind that it might not be possible to draw any truth at all from my tattoos, I wanted to turn our collective attention, or at least the ones I still have, to the experiences that I have had with my tattoos. The first tattoo I ever got was this ta moko. I got it when I was 17 in an almost impressively racist high school. Those who are able to read moko will pull out some characteristics. It's on my [00:03:00] left thigh. Second, it features this mania piece on top, which is the thing that kind of looks like a heart. Um, It's a Guardian design used to protect the bearer. It features poutama within koru, an indicator of growth through achievement. And it's red, because red's my favourite colour. That's literally it. Sorry to break the big, wise, noble, indigenous illusion I was making. But when I'm asked about my first tattoo, I don't say it was my moko. I say it was that one. Though there are overlaps [00:03:30] which could make the distinction seemingly unnecessary because my moko is about family and my tattoos are about family, moko and tattoo are not the same. Though those outside indigenous tattoos would likely see moko and pierre or tunit as tattoos with just a brown flare, I categorize them as two different things. It's well recorded in literature and tattooing that it's serves two different functions. It indicates group identity and it individuates. This is the first tension between [00:04:00] queer and indigenous embodiment. My queer tattoos, including my gender deviant king and queen, bisexual safo quote, I wish I was joking, and soft lesbian mermaid are not the same as my moko. My indigenous tattoo can't be described and it wasn't my choice. It doesn't represent an idea of the self as is, it represents an idea of the self as it can and has been. The second tension is demonstrated through these two absolute gems. That are [00:04:30] permanently attached to me. Though they look solid enough, this one was done in a horse cart on a random setting. Saturday by a guy who took vape breaks, and this one is too many leaks. They, in looking at tattoos as art, are complete and utter failures. I literally wheel these out as parties to make people laugh. I cried. When I got the spider, genuinely, I left the studio and just had a rom com run through the wind to my mate's house. I was [00:05:00] just sobbing on their doorstep. It's the only tattoo I actually genuinely regret. The horse cart, though it's messy and not that meaningful and probably technically worse, because one of the hands looks broken in some way, is a tattoo I would never take back. I got it exclusively to make a friend happy, to provide something so ridiculous that she would have no choice but to laugh at it. From the reasoning that I game, magic should take too long to start, to the [00:05:30] tattoo itself, the aftercare that came in a ketchup sauce container, and the fact that my legs went dead so I fell out of the cart on the way out. There's absolutely no dignity in this tattoo. But she laughed, and we still reference it, and that makes it worth it. For indigenous tattooing, it is the process which matters just as much, if not more, than the design itself. It is the relationships built and sustained, the environment and the shared narratives built, which gives the [00:06:00] tattoo reason to exist at all. For queer and often white tattooing, it is the design that matters. What it means and represents of the self, what it indicates to others, and its use as a tool of empowerment. Artists are often found based on their ability to tattoo the design, not because of who they are. The third tension comes from this piece, and I want to say thanks mum for taking the photos, I see you are on here. The shark initially had meaning as the name of my tribe and the [00:06:30] hammerhead's role in saving us from Parata when we migrated from Hawai'i. This tattoo is coupled with an octopus on my opposing arm to signify the whakatauki kau e mate wheke e mate ururoa. But these meanings have since faded into the background. A new meaning has risen, which happened on December 25th of 2021. I was on the beach with my brother, having the dreaded experience of an insecure fat kid walking back from swimming. My shorts were clinging to [00:07:00] me, my hair was wild, and my face was bright red. I then encountered the greatest enemy I have ever known. Male youths. Immediately, I jumped to the worst. I was on a beach. Come on, there's a whale joke to be made there. Without thinking, I turned around to walk backwards, bearing my shark tattoo to them. I walked straighter, confident that they wouldn't see the squish of my arms, but be drawn instead to the massive shark on them. Came back to Wellington with a new mission. Tattoos were no longer fun little things I wanted to [00:07:30] remember. I needed to be covered. Rather than plowing down the self love tract, which hadn't worked for the better part of a decade and is relatively difficult to maintain, when there is a 224 billion market in weight loss, a search for the word fat on Twitter pulls up genuinely the most unnecessary cruelty, and 63 percent of my peers are genuinely afraid of looking like me. I fashioned myself into a sketchbook. Comments on my body have since shifted from [00:08:00] somewhat well meaning remarks about how I could be pretty if I lost weight, somehow lost four inches of height, and straightened my hair, while also embracing my curves, embracing my curls, and focused on growing to a supermodel height, to, oh, wow. Whether they love them or hate them, people be commenting on these tattoos. For the first time since I was 12, I've routinely worn singlets and bared my arms. My body has gone from something threatening unintentionally to something I can understand. I [00:08:30] can blame the side eyes, the crossing the street, and the general discomfort people have with my body on those, not the body features or the person themselves. I'm not saying that queer people or white women don't exist. from their bodies. Certainly restrictions on gender affirming care and reproductive agencies would show they do. But tattoos for these groups are almost always framed as self empowering. Asserting a true self which is at odds with what is expected of them. Crucially, these markings are voluntary, and to kind of [00:09:00] pick up from Ezra, they take place on a blank canvas. My father, before getting his Tamilcore, was already marked. He was a tall, big, brown man. Before I had tattoos, I'm fat and vaguely ethnic, although my pale skin lets me get away with a lot more than my darker family. As much as you shouldn't need to, and there's something to be said about validating feelings, which I'm not very good at, You can hide queerness, and white women can perform femininity and be rewarded for it. [00:09:30] Indeed, a lot of queer people and white women are drawn to tattooing explicitly because it marks and stigmatizes them. It makes a normative body queer and a white feminine body dangerous. Tattooing is an easy way for visibly privileged people to bridge the gap between their non normative self and normative body by tapping into a cultural property associated with marginalization. Indigenous and police bodies don't need this. We have it already. Indeed, every time a white queer gets a tattoo in a [00:10:00] visible place to signal they're an outsider, or cool, or butch, it means that the communities the stigma derives fromindigenous, incarcerated, and working class people have that stigma reinforced, and can't escape the negative implications of that. So we have three tensions. The tattoo for the self or the other, tattoos as a process or as a body modification, and tattoos as the first or final mark on the skin canvas. This is not to say that all non indigenous tattoos are selfish, or all [00:10:30] indigenous tattoos are selfless, just that these are the trends the designs tend to follow. I've ran out of ideas. Where tattoos have tried to bridge, it's been a problematic train work that you kind of have to admire. Brutal Black is a project by two white artists explicitly focusing on the process and obligations of tattoos. Which sounds great. Until one of the artists said their style was ignorant, violent and primitive, and the other said their goal was to make people look like [00:11:00] savages. Primitive and tribal when Western tattoos try to challenge the individual design ethos They tend to just rip off the indigenous mode and you end up with weird neo primitives who connect to their base animal Instincts by going native clearly less civilized when indigenous tattooers cater to individual sensibilities It's hardly any more successful. Last year, a woman went under fire for receiving her moko kauai, traditional chin tattoo, in white ink. Her [00:11:30] reasoning was to be different, not harsh, and more elegant than the darker tattoos. When Māori then challenged her on it, she switched to say she got white explicitly because it was bolder. Trying to make moko kauai unique to the bearer doesn't actually work because it isn't right for the bearer to make those decisions. So how do we resolve this? We do the anthropology thing, and we look at the people. My tattoos are Māori and queer, because I am. I chose not to ask for a facial [00:12:00] moko as I knew that moko kauai now means woman and mataora now means man. I chose the graphic illustrative style and red accents of my non Māori tattoos because they blend with my moko. To break down that final line, people are not just queer or native. Tattoos are not just social or personal. How the self is perceived as a relational entity seems anti theatrical to the purposes of tattoos, which bi practically can't be shared, unless you take off your skin like the world's worst secret [00:12:30] Santa. Yet despite the fact that overwhelming consensus characterizes tattoos as the exteriorization of the interior, indigenous peoples have seen them as signs that the interior and exterior Self and social are one and the same. Queerness, slowly moving away from prioritizing the perfect representation of an individual to something more collective, is also making moves to position gender as something both placed and held by a person. Within this messy dialogue, [00:13:00] tattoos provide a startling permanence. Their existence can't be denied or rewritten. Similarly, the individual and relational nature of people can't be denied or rewritten. I have two chairs tattooed on my arms. They mean absolutely nothing. I haven't even retrospectively been able to put meaning on them. They're chairs. They're just chairs. They're mine, on my body, of my choice. Probably not an informed one, but of my choice. But they are also [00:13:30] others. They impact how people see me, what they make of me, and what they think a tattoo should be for. We're back to taste classifies and classifies the classifier, because what is a social scientist if not the shadow of Bordeaux? Kia Ora.

IRN: 3671
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_studies_now_kawe_mahara_queer_archives_aotearoa.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004966
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1107377
TITLE: Kawe Mahara Queer Archives Aotearoa - Rainbow Studies Now
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Clare O'Leary; Elizabeth Kerekere; Kevin Haunui; Will Hansen
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 2020s; Clare O'Leary; Elizabeth Kerekere; Kawe Mahara Queer Archives Aotearoa; Kevin Haunui; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; National Library of New Zealand; Rainbow Room; Rainbow Studies Now: Legacies of Community (2023); Will Hansen; activism; archives; hidden history; history; human rights; intersex; takatāpui; transgender
DATE: 23 November 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington, Kelburn Parade, Kelburn, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the presentation on Kawe Mahara Queer Archives Aotearoa, formerly the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ). Will Hansen introduces Clare O'Leary, Kevin Haunui and Elizabeth Kerekere.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: December 2023
TEXT: Kia ora everybody! It's so awesome to have you here, very first, uh, panel of the day. Uh, it's my privilege to, um, chair the Queer Heritage Rebuilding Our Past panel. We've got a wonderful line up of speakers today. Uh, we've got Kawe Mahara, Queer Archives Aotearoa. This is our new name. Um, speaking first. Uh, we've got Clara O'Leary, Kevin Honui, and Elizabeth Kirikiri here. Uh, [00:00:30] speak on behalf of them, so we'll, they'll be up first. And then we'll have, and Marnie, and Ruben, and Love, and Donald, uh, also in the room, which is awesome. And Will is also on the board for those of you guys. And I'm biased, and I'm on the board too, so we're up first. And then, uh, and then we'll be hearing from wonderful Alison Day, uh, about her research into queer archives. And then Scott Pilkington, I believe you're on Zoom, um, will be coming up after Alison, uh, asking about, uh, can universities be considered [00:01:00] queer? And then finally, we get to hear from Charlie Prout and Grace Carroll, uh, on their findings from, uh, developing the Unite to Transform strategic framework for change to advance trans and non binary rights in Aotearoa. So it's gonna be an awesome hour. Um, we'll do questions at the end. Um, and if panelists could try to keep to about 15 minutes, that'd be great. So I'll start off with With, yeah, if you want to come in front of the microphone, and you might actually have to do the slides yourselves. Kevin's going to do it. Okay. [00:01:30] Kia ora tātou. So, hi, Kevin Honu tōku ingoa. Um, really, um, we're in the previous name of Kawemahara Queer Archives Aotearoa. Um, and to exit out the old name, which was the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand, Te Pūranga Takatāpui o Aotearoa. So if, if you don't know about, um, who we are and what we do, uh, it is about preserving our queer histories. It's about, [00:02:00] um, ensuring that people have access to, to that information, and trying to do it in the best way that we can. It is unique in terms of the way that our collections are held in trust for community, and it's held in trust for community at the Alexandra Turnbull Library within the National Library of New Zealand. So that in itself is a very unique, um, relationship, and it does. Sort of highlight, uh, the intentionality around, um, preserving our histories. [00:02:30] But it's great to follow on from Wilby as well, because really, he's joining together, as we join together with Wilby around, um, and trying to ensure that our histories, uh, Made available everywhere. So before I, I hand it on to a couple of our other speakers here. You know, I do want to honor Georgina buyer, um, in particular for the Georgina's legacy. And, you know, one of the things that, uh, John Georgina has said. You know, if they [00:03:00] try to shut me up, I'll scream even louder and louder, something to that effect, you know, and that's really um, a legacy that is encouraging and inspiring for us as we continue in our, in our work today, but there are also many other um, icons and uh, activists who are also remembered, uh, who are also not forgotten. Um, I think of the, the Oh Now and then I start thinking about people, and I start thinking about people [00:03:30] that, uh, were actually in community as well. So, uh, I look at the Wellington community and people like, uh, Arthur Tauhore, who was, you know, a hairdresser, um, but also really quite influential from my perspective as Takatapui within, within this community. But we have all Men of, of, of, of icons standing next to me is one of those, uh, those icons. Um, you know. And because [00:04:00] I'm Māori and Takatāpui, I'm a bit biased, you know, Ngāhuia Te Awa Kotuku, uh, is another. Um, Leone Pihama, in Nau, academic, still very much, um, a part of our, a part of our community. Many, many others. Where We'll Be is actually an icon in my mind as well. Carries our memories. And perhaps that's a, that's a particular, but they're not forgotten. And in fact, they're there to inspire us as well. So their litancies, um, continue on. [00:04:30] Um, these are all of our members, um, of, of the, of the trust. And, you know, you can go to our website, uh, as it is at the moment, and find out all about us. We're a trust, I've mentioned that. The records that we maintain, um, we are quite unique in terms of identifying our communities, uh, Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Takatāpui, Whāwhāwhine, Intersex, Queer, and includes any [00:05:00] same sex attracted transgender or intersex members of any indigenous community of the Pacific. Quite um, quite broad. We collect history. Kia ora everybody, I'm Claire O'Leary. I'm a documentary filmmaker, but mostly in this capacity, a member of the board of Legans. Um, and this session today is really to honour, um, the, [00:05:30] the kind of, the importance of archiving. And one thing that we talked about at our wānanga was that our personal histories and stories are actually our archive. So, um, Not to diminish an individual and their contribution to becoming part of our community because of our diversity and because of our own lived experiences. And I think that's becoming more and more, um, valued, um, [00:06:00] in terms of research, uh, and that everybody's voice, unique voice, is contributing to our collection along the way and for future communities, um, that, Live after we've long gone. Um, one thing I wanted to just say this morning after Welby's, um, session, which I found very emotional, was that as we explore these archives, we also come across people who have passed away, that we knew, and [00:06:30] loved, and danced with, and made love with, and, you know, um, had fights with. And so, it becomes a very personal journey too, um, And some of those, um, fights were individual or community, um, activism. And that our, our archives were born from activism. And not to forget that every single person who is an ally helps that process as well. So yeah. So the ephemera that [00:07:00] we have. By coming out publicly and going this is who we are it also may lead to some pushback from people who don't like it, but Together, we can resist that, and our voices have to maintain strength and vitality, um, in our diversity. So yeah, so we collect all sorts of things, and we've had lots of amazing collections, like Marnie's recently, um, gifted, uh, the collection of the [00:07:30] intersex community, and we have a lot of, um, Very old stuff that was, that was collected in times when it, when it was illegal and people were actually like, well, we said, put in prison, basically tortured and sometimes killed and unfortunately, that is still happening around the world and, and we are aware of that and we work with international communities that are dealing with that. But for them knowing that we, we know and we see [00:08:00] and we hear What is happening, and we respond to it, is still really, really important to them as well. Yeah, so, you can read all this, and you can have these slides, and you can, um, go online, like Kevin said, and explore all the different elements of the collections that we do have. And the other thing that we do is we also look at where the gaps are. And that is part of our journey for our name change too, is to become more, um, Um, diverse and [00:08:30] fill our archive with the, with the, um, the beautiful uniqueness and diversity of our, of our community. And the other collection we have is the New Zealand Prostitutes Collective. Which, um, really, um, the Prostitutes Collective was also a big part of the, um, homosexual law reform activism. And then, you know, our communities work alongside, are part of, not always, um, exactly the same, or get on. But, um, we definitely have different [00:09:00] lenses along the way. But, um, We know the important thing of being represented in, in legislation as well. And, and that's where Kevin's work with human rights and, and Elizabeth too. And recognizing that, um, being queer is, is, and being able to live a queer life is also a human right. So part of a much bigger global community on that scale. I don't know if any [00:09:30] of you know, but we have a Rainbow Room in Parliament. Of which, Elizabeth has done a fabulous interview about her identity as an MP and her journey to become an MP. And that's online and you can watch it. But this was at an event where, Kevin had just come back from the World Pride Conference. And this is Margaret Sparrow, Dr. Margaret Sparrow in the red. And she's been a great supporter of our community and Marnie. And that, [00:10:00] if you get an MP to book the room, you can have an event there for your community. And in that room is all of the legislation related to homosexual law reform, the Civil Union Act, Marriage Amendment Act, the Births, Deaths and Marriages, Relationship Registration Act, and any new legislation that will happen. Be coming forward. Hopefully we should keep that room alive and not let this right wing government Take it away [00:10:30] as well. So that's you know We have to remain vigilant and if that starts to happen and we have to stand up and say no So I'm gonna seek way in here. Yeah Because as the current chair of the Legans, Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand. Put it in Pūranga Takatāpui o Aotearoa. I sort of want to just announce that I'm also the outgoing chair of that organisation, and that we have our [00:11:00] new chair. of Te Kaua Mahara, Elizabeth, Dr. Elizabeth Kerekere, um, who is, uh, taking us through, uh, this particular next day of the organisation. And so, Elizabeth is going to take us on our next journey. Kia ora Elizabeth. Do we have more slides? So this is examples. Just keep scrolling. This is the fabulous stuff we do. Uh, a lot of the stuff we have is Uh, hard copy, uh, and, and that's really important, critical, [00:11:30] any hard copy stuff you've got lying around from any groups, organizations you've been part of. Feel free to come and send it to us to, uh, look after. Um, but the digital is the key thing. So much of what is happening now, especially with our young people, it's all online. And we don't have good, safe ways and comprehensive ways. This guy here has been, in his own time, collecting thousands of pieces of information. We need to coordinate that. We need to bring more people in, uh, to be part of that. Cause this is the history that's being made right [00:12:00] now. We need to capture it. Yes, this is me. I'm, I've been on the board for many years now. I think 2007, so a little while and I took a step back when I was doing that thing in Parliament and now I'm really excited to come back in. And with the name change, we're making big signals to our communities. A lot of people, even though Leggings was a brand that's been around for a long time, people were familiar with, for many others it's not an inclusive name. [00:12:30] And so this was key. And we did a process, a wānanga, with our board to say what is the way forward, what is the way that we want to portray who we actually are. And then, so the name is the first part. Kawe Mahara means to carry the memories. We carry the memories of all of All of the whakapapa, all of the histories and fragments of our communities, but also we hope that we will become a place that will be trusted by everybody so they carry their memories for [00:13:00] us to hold and that we will safely look after them. It's, it's a huge honour to be helping to lead this work forward because what it means now is now we've got to put that in action. It's not good enough to just change a name, make a pretty logo. It's about completely changing now our trust deed, our collection policy, uh, and then developing a new strategy moving forward. And we're very excited about the young people and all the members of our board who commit to this. [00:13:30] And this is a breakdown of the name. We are looking for people to design our logo. Uh, that, has that been sent out yet? It's going out very soon, so if there are any designers, it's so close, it's happening very soon. Designers, um, bring your beautiful ideas and concepts and let's get something that's absolutely created inside our community to really encapsulate what it is, uh, that we're trying to do here. [00:14:00] And, oh, yeah, we got things to do. We got, we got stuff to organize and we got things that we need to represent. And a lot of how, um, Laggans has operated, it's been quite quiet. You will see, um, Laggans at, at stalls at, at the Wellington Fair at Big Gay Out in Auckland. Uh, but we want to Get out there a lot more because it's not just about getting, keeping what's old, [00:14:30] it's actually using the power, the wisdom of the knowledge we hold to say what it is that we must say today. What it is we must say, and for example, supporting the Queers in Palestine movement and what we're doing, uh, because it's not just hurting people's lives, it's the histories that they represent. Is always at risk of being lost, and so, that's the last thing. I just want to talk to that a little bit because it links back to what Welby said [00:15:00] about, um, Uh, the teachers and the role of teachers and also libraries, but um, The, this teacher who started the very first International Lesbian and Gay History Month was told he couldn't tell the history about the Holocaust and the Pink Triangle. Um, that, well, we also talked to, and, um, it caused a great furore and protest which resulted in an international movement around, um, [00:15:30] telling a queer history in schools, and the real history. And so, now, we're just, um, getting together to, to build a, a New Zealand kind of Queer History Month, which Lagans will be a part of, along with other rainbow, um, organisations, hopefully, but it's early days. We've just put a, um, a month in the ground to say this is when we celebrate our homosexual law reform. In July, um, from 1986. So, let's start thinking about how we can work with [00:16:00] other communities around the whole country. Because as well we said, people in rural areas are very, very, um, cut off and, um, but everyone seems to have a connection with a library or, uh, and a lot of young people go to the library to find those books and stories. Yeah. So I hope you join us along that journey. Thank you. Yes, come visit, get involved. Absolutely. Next time you're doing your piece of research, think, kawe mahara. Have they got something there that it's going to [00:16:30] really inform my work? And, very excited to hear that AUT have got IA and that repository of all theses. Um, When your thesis is done, your master's, your PhD, put a copy of it into our collection so that other people, you don't know what you're doing right now that's going to impact on someone in a hundred years, but that will exist. Uh, your descendants will be able to read it, will be able to see it. So, kia ora koutou katoa. Alright, kia ora tatou. We look [00:17:00] forward to any questions, um, a bit later on perhaps.

IRN: 3675
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_studies_now_ezra_baldwin.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004965
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1107376
TITLE: Ezra Baldwin - Rainbow Studies Now
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ezra Baldwin
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Ezra Baldwin; Rainbow Studies Now: Legacies of Community (2023); activism; artist; arts; collage; discrimination; gender expression; gender identity; non-binary; representation; trans; transgender
DATE: 23 November 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington, Kelburn Parade, Kelburn, Wellington
CONTEXT: Ezra Baldwin presents at the Rainbow Studies Now symposium, held on 23 November 2023 at Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: December 2023
TEXT: Hi everyone, so my name is Ezra Baldwin. I use they, them pronouns, and I am a designer, creative, and teaching assistant based in Tāmaki Makaurau, Auckland. Um, and when I'm able to be a teaching assistant, I work at AUT, which is also where I study. So today I'm going to be unpacking a couple of aspects of my master's project, um, which is an autoethnographic, uh, study about yours truly, and I'd like to just preface it with [00:00:30] Um, I acknowledge that the view, the um, the references and views in my thesis are very Western based, and that's not the only realm of knowledge or way of seeing transness and non binary identity and queerness. Because it's an autoethnographic project, I refer to things that I grew up with in my base of knowledge and my references. Um, so it's. And it's not my place to be, um, trying to speak of things that I don't know much about or is not my [00:01:00] background, um, without further research and consultation. So, I just wanted to get that out of the way first. So, my project, uh, is It's called Transcendence, an exploration of collage as a voice for non binary identity. My research question was, how might one use collage to visualize and express a lived experience of a non binary identity? And after 18 months, I figured it out. Which is what this presentation's about.[00:01:30] So why did I pick this topic? There are two main reasons. We'll start with the slightly more positive one and go into the more, uh, less positive That makes sense, one. I wanted to find a way to figure out my identity in a clearer way and express it in a way that I had the expertise to do, being the communication design. Um, and do it in a way which feels authentic to what it means to be non binary. And the [00:02:00] way I define non binary, um, that I find most useful is literally anything but man or woman. Um, that's probably the simplest way I can put it. And transgender as being, uh, journeying from one gender, and it doesn't have to be to another, it could be to multiple, but it has to be the inclusion of a journey of some sort, um, which is where non binaryness and transness can, but [00:02:30] don't always kind of fall within one another. The second reason, uh, comes with a couple of trigger warnings for a couple of upcoming slides, is that I wanted to contribute to better representation of non binary and transgender people within society and within the community. Because while society is getting better and better, um, especially within the last 18 months, there have been some real good reminders of how far we actually have to go and how [00:03:00] much. There is still underlying discrimination and hatred out there within society. So just a quick content warning, there are going to be mentions of homophobia, transphobia and threats of violence, but it should only be for the next three slides. So, back in June of last year, we had the arson attack on the Rainbow Youth and Gender Dynamics building down in Tauranga. In March of this year, we had [00:03:30] Posey Parker coming to spread her transphobic and misogynistic and overall just nasty worldviews, and we had a huge rally of allies and rainbow community come out and quite literally drown her out. And a couple of weeks ago, so I'm not sure how widely this was spread. Um, a couple of weeks ago, as I was making this presentation, A University of Auckland student [00:04:00] made an incredibly disgusting comment on a Discord server, which was then picked up by police, um, around promising extreme violence the next, uh, the next day at transgender students at University of Auckland. That's just across the road from where I work and where I studied. I hate the way the media put this because it diminishes it. The police found that there was no threat. I disagree. There was a very strong threat, but the intent [00:04:30] to actually carry it out was not followed through, if that makes sense. So that's, well, three events within 16 to 18 months, and I have a lovely quote from my thesis to kind of sum up the sentiment. Despite the protestations of our society that people who are queer, transgender, and non binary are accepted, we are still living in a state of fear and hyper vigilance where we are often judged, misrepresented, and misunderstood. That's why I do what I do. [00:05:00] I want to. Now, I originally have five collages, I'm showing you a selection of three today, because they speak to each other better. They represent experiences that I want to have through a non binary lens in the way I see the world, and I'll explain a little bit of the kind of easter eggs behind them as I go through them. The first being Eros and Ludus. So this is the first collage I created, [00:05:30] and it is in the, um, program. That's not a brag, it's just if anyone wants a closer look after the, after this goes. Um, From Fraternal Solidarity to Queer Affection. This particular, um, sculpture is part of a larger panel piece by French, uh, artist, I forget, Amélie José Dallot. And it was made in 1883. Which, as a queer person, I was like, that's really early. It was to depict the, um, the passionate fraternal kiss between [00:06:00] two strong socialists as a form of greeting. It's safe to say that's not what I saw when I saw this. So I took that and its existing meaning, um, and, well, that's how I want to be loved. That's how I want to love another person, but maybe not as, not all of just masculinity, right? With the, you know, with the powerful, you know, holding each other in the musculature and the um, [00:06:30] societally stereotypical beard and short hair. But there's a softness, there's a tenderness, there's a desirability, which I've brought in with the colors and the flowers and the um, the dusk and dawn. Uh, kind of transition in the background there. My second collage is Reclining Colossus, which is, you know, I'll be a bit of an artifact here with a little bit of portraiture knowledge, is focusing on the internal gaze. Um, if you go around art [00:07:00] galleries and look at art pieces, um, a lot of portraiture, the subjects are staring out at the audience, which is kind of what I'm doing now, and it can make people uncomfortable. I've kept all of the gazes in my work internal, so looking in, looking at each other, and away from the audience, which both shows the intimacy of kind of how I want to exist with a potential partner, just the safety, the security, this love, away from everyone else. You know, we're doing our own thing over here. But it allows the viewer to look at it [00:07:30] and go and observe and kind of, you know, reflect within themselves without feeling confronted. So it creates kind of a safety barrier between them. And my final collage for, um, for this selection is the Younger Self, and this one holds quite a special place in my heart. Um, this is The statue is originally baby Dionysus and his, being held by his mentor Selenus. That's my current trans [00:08:00] self nurturing my inner child. Um, as a, yeah I can say this is a safe, a safe space, as a little girl, I, um, after about the age of maybe, you know, 7, 8, I started denying myself things traditionally feminine. I didn't know why. I didn't figure myself out until I was 17, 18. But I didn't want to be like other girls, I didn't want to like pink because other girls like pink and that's too girly, um, but I never fit in with the boys and even though I wanted to play soccer with them or play video games, I kind of, you know, [00:08:30] you distance yourself from that too because you feel like an other. And now I can look back at my younger self and go, hey, guess what, it works out, let's kind of rediscover these things together, I'm going to, I'm going to, Hold you close, and we're gonna go embrace the colour pink again. We're going to We're going to embrace all of these things that you denied yourself because That's the power of what you can do as a trans person at a, um, safe space within your healing. So, I [00:09:00] got to make my own definition of collage, because why not? It's a master's degree. Collage, traditionally, it's quite discorded, quite punk, quite visible edges. You can see quite literally where this paper has been stuck on the top of one another, and as you can see, mine doesn't do that. So why not redefine it to make it more inclusive? So, quoting myself again, um, A process of continuous building and unbuilding where one draws content from existing ideas, mediums or media, then combines, amalgamates, [00:09:30] layers, subverts or otherwise transforms the content, Very importantly, along with its existing connotations and associations, into a new body of work. So it just, it doesn't get rid of the old definition and the old way of doing collage. It just opens it up to be more broad and more inclusive. So, people like me can do harmonious. Uh, collage like that, and it still, um, can be defined as such. And upon reflection, and kind of that, [00:10:00] that search for a medium which is, um, sympathetic to being non binary. Actually, non binary is a form of collage. Which sounds crazy when you first say it, but when you break it down, or at least when I did, you can agree or disagree, it actually kind of works. And now I've blacked out parts of my definition and I want to see if we're on the same wavelength here. Non binary identity. A process of continuous building and unbuilding existing ideas This combines, [00:10:30] amalgamates, layers, subverts, or otherwise transforms, along with existing connotations and associations, into a new body. So, I, I mean, for the purposes of this presentation, I'll just refer to trans and non binary folk, but it counts for anyone who's queer and anyone who just exists in the world. You know, I start off with a blank canvas, or a previously femme canvas, and I go, well, I want to have that part of masculinity, sticks beard on, um, [00:11:00] I want that aspect of kind of more camp femininity, puts the shirt on, but I don't mind the feminine, um, you know, the way I move, the previous experiences I had, the kind of things I learnt through growing up in sisterhood, and I'll keep those too. Is that not a form of collage? Is putting, is getting tattoos and, you know, maybe they start off as flash and gain meaning or they might be something deeply, um, connected to you culturally or societal or so on, is that also not a form of [00:11:30] collage? So I'll just leave this with you, you can think what you will. But that was something I thought of, okay, that makes collage the appropriate form to do this, um, autoethnographic study through. So that's kind, that was kind of the, the whirring maelstrom of thoughts that created, uh, Transcendence. And through this, and through the, um, events of the last 18 months, but also kind of just going back as far as the, um, as the eye can see with, uh, [00:12:00] queer and trans liberation. Presence over protest, um, does creative style and approach to activism, do they converge? Um, something that I've come across and other people I know have come across is this thought that protest and activism within the queer community are generally only seen as huge air quotes, valid, when they are extroverted, loud, busy and confrontational or are parties full of alcohol and covered with rainbows and glitter. [00:12:30] Um, these are not bad things. It's only when they're seen as the only, I'll be quick, only valid form of protest and action is when they become bad. I didn't go to the protest at Albert Park because I was having anxiety attacks and scared for my safety, and I felt like a bad queer because of it. We are made to feel that we don't care about the community if we don't participate in these often confrontational, overwhelming, and inaccessible events. I know a lot of people who didn't go to the protests and go on, you know, the marches down Queen Street because they had mobility issues or, [00:13:00] um, neurodivergent issues where they'd get overloaded or there wasn't a quiet space for them to jump out from. So we have to remember our family too. I argue that an extroverted approach is one of many forms of protest and activism, not the only valid one. And queer activism and protest can also be introverted, softer, expressive, and artistic in their approach. Artists and their artwork have played an essential role in the queer and trans liberation movement across the world. Uh, if we're going internationally, Keith Haring's work, [00:13:30] um, Silence Equals Death in the Pink Triangle, and um, as we saw this morning, the quilts. Those aren't loud and extroverted, necessarily, depending on the, um, presentation. But those are still equally powerful forms of protest and action. So to conclude, uh, since my time is running out, I will leave you with a quote. I'll let you read it rather than narrate it myself. Uh, from Hafsat Abiola, who's a Nigerian women's rights activist.[00:14:00] And this is what I want to leave you all with today. Thank you.

IRN: 3674
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_studies_now_charlie_prout_and_grace_carroll.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004964
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1107375
TITLE: Charlie Prout and Grace Carroll - Rainbow Studies Now
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Charlie Prout; Grace Carroll
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Charlie Prout; Grace Carroll; Nancy Fraser; Rainbow Studies Now: Legacies of Community (2023); justice; protection; trans; transgender
DATE: 23 November 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington, Kelburn Parade, Kelburn, Wellington
CONTEXT: Charlie Prout and Grace Carroll present at the Rainbow Studies Now symposium, held on 23 November 2023 at Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: December 2023
TEXT: Kia ora koutou. Ko Charlie Pratt. Um, I'm here with my very good friend Grace, and we're going to present a framework that we came up with to kind of think about how you progress trans rights in New Zealand. So, the background of this came from a confluence of two events. Firstly, I was a senior policy analyst at the time at Oranga Tamariki, and this really beautiful report came out called Making Ourselves Visible, and as the token, or one of the two token trans people at Oranga [00:00:30] Tamariki at the time, I was asked to feed into it, or review it. And what it showed to me was, while this report was really great, we needed a framework for policy, staff, and other staff to think about when we're talking about interventions and policies. For rainbow and trans and non binary people, how can we upskill policy makers and, um, civil servants to actually think about these? And Grace will just talk about the kind of other event that led [00:01:00] to this. Yeah, cool. Kia ora. So the, um, second one was Posey Parker's visit, um, to Aotearoa. As we all know, um, one of the things that that indicated was the real great strength, um, of our, uh, queer and radical movement. communities and the incredibly quick response, an organization, um, that was demonstrated to counter that presence and message very, very successfully, um, but it really demonstrated as well that prejudice remains that key problem for us, um, and [00:01:30] a question that was raised was, you know, the responses to those events like that when there is that breakthrough prejudice into the public domain, um, is the more reactionary. nature of those responses, as well as the kind of intermittent visibility that our communities have. Um, and we don't necessarily appear to have a very clear way to frame that discourse. And this is coupled with the context of ongoing growing issues. So, for example, the state not being the the right actor. to really respond to [00:02:00] those events, uh, it's very self interested, um, it's focused on its own security and it's constrained massively. Um, the prejudice that's been increasingly being imported from overseas, from the UK and the US, that's digitally as well as physically, um, and the influence on our, um, various communities across the country. Uh, the alienation that we have experienced, um, I think rightly so. Uh, from the state and the low trust in the state, state systems. Um, and the, uh, coupled with economic hardship and inequities that we face. [00:02:30] So the question really was, is it enough to just react in the face of these hidden webs and, um, causes of prejudice that become visible and break through, um, to be able to successfully and effectively counter prejudicial groups and grievances? So, the confluence of these two events really led Uh, question for me around when, we often see this phrase, right, is trans rights are human rights, but what are we actually, what are the trans rights that we're fighting [00:03:00] for, right? So, um, this, uh, this framework is really heavily influenced by the work of Nancy Fraser, an American critical theorist, um, and in particular her theories on justice, so she works at the New School. And her critique, um, focuses on how do we acknowledge difference, while also still effectively redistributing power. So it's, um, this is kind of a rift on her 1995 article, [00:03:30] um, in the New Leaf Review, and it focuses on her theories of redistribution and recognition. Um, and as part of that, the kind of key components of the framework and the background to it is the need to firstly recognise difference, that different groups have difference and we need to recognise that, and the specific needs in the trans and non binary communities is different than the rest of the rainbow community. While interlocked, one also, um, going along with [00:04:00] a lot of Fraser's work, it's simply Uh, polishing or diversifying the existing social order. It's around changing the hierarchies in the neoliberal order. Especially, um, as we'll go into, uh, around capital. So, a lot of this framework is around materialism and materialist access. So it isn't just around words and pronouns, it is also Fundamentally Marxist and, and [00:04:30] based in critical theory because it is based on the Marxist concept of having access and to capital and reshaping it. Cool. So, kind of. The question that stems from that then is, you know, what's the vehicle, the means by which we then make this a reality. And so really it's a need to think, be, and act strategic. Um, so there are just three points we're going to make here briefly. Um, the first is around thinking strategically, the [00:05:00] difference between theoretical and strategic unity. So I think we can all agree that we've got a high level of theoretical unity in our community. For example, that trans rights are human rights. That's an example of theoretical unity. But when it comes to strategic unity, it's not necessarily as explicit. And this is about an understanding of what our core pillars of change are and look like. So what are our objectives here that kind of guide and help thread through all of the different things that we're doing, which are really awesome, but need to [00:05:30] have some sort of unifying point or orientation to them and that that obviously in turn influences how we organize or maybe how we organize the tactics and the actions that we undertake. Um, and also as part of that in terms of being strategic, it's removing from the debates whether or not trans people exist. We exist. We need to not have those conversations. It is more when people bring those up, it's more being like Yeah, but what are the needs of trans [00:06:00] people that the state and wider society need to meet? So, not falling down the trap of debating our existence, but our needs. And then lastly, it's about, um, balancing that radical aspiration with the pragmatic necessities of living in a state run society, um, and looking at the mechanics of, uh, security, um, how our networks are formed, um, and, and generally we came to the agreement. that a general strategy really does that for [00:06:30] us, um, not necessarily to impose an authority that seeks to control and conform, but more in a way to have a, a durable, radical orientation for our efforts, um, that dismantles those systems of domination, um, and lays a groundwork for a more transformative, uh, society. Um, and this is the framework, so there's some key components of it. So, fundamentally the framework aims to, uh, create a general strategic [00:07:00] reference that recognises the common purpose, um, of acceptance. So, the three factors that lead of access, protection and recognition lead to the acceptance of trans people. So, what often happens is, we say, I accept trans people, without putting the method, the mechanisms in place for trans people to exist in society as themselves. Um, but there's also some other factors with this framework at which it centers its purpose. So, um, Fundamentally, it's [00:07:30] person centric, uh, so people before politics, as in it's around people and such, uh, materialistic flourishing, so again, it's that focus on capital and access to opportunity. It's also system wide, as we've talked about, and it's for long term outcomes. So now we'll talk about the key parts. of, um, the three elements of the framework that leads to acceptance. [00:08:00] So, uh, protection is best thought of as, um, safe to and safe from. So, it's around the equitable treatment of trans and non binary people in accordance with civil liberty and human rights. It's based on safe and security. Basically, nobody is discriminated against because of their gender. And, sorry, we're quite persuasive in our language to say gender because Because when you say gender identity, it is often something that just, it's, you only refer to gender identity [00:08:30] when you refer to trans people, right? Thus, when we say gender, we, it's encompassing of the trans umbrella. Yeah, and these definitions are, are based on our professional and personal experiences and practices, um, uh, some of it's, um, around some of the language that's used in government, but also, um, in the community as well, and so it's just. the blend of those, um, to try and, um, get to a general, uh, reference point. So when we talk about safe from, we're fundamentally talking about the issues of discrimination and prejudice, uh, in all its forms across all the [00:09:00] systems. So this is about safety, so looking at the conditions of being protected from harm, as well as security, which is the means that we use to protect from those threats and danger. Um, so there are some aspects in law that we can kind of point to and say, well, We might have protection technically under the law, um, but really the, the core issues around, um, forms of prejudice in society, so that's, uh, criminal, so it might, you know, hate crime, hate speech, and non criminal, which is more the hate incidents that may not have a criminal component to it, [00:09:30] um, but they're still motivated by prejudice and they're still harmful. Yep. And then SAFE 2 is fundamentally Again, access to capital. So, uh, riffing off Fraser, it is looking, making sure that, um, your gender doesn't limit your access to capital. For example, the counting ourselves, which is, uh, incredibly important for, um, What are the other parts we'll talk about? Um, they found that, uh, the, the participants of that [00:10:00] survey had an average income, sorry, a median income of 15 to 20, 000, which is about half of the median income of, um, cis people. So access is really around ensuring that trans and non binary people have access to the necessary resources, services, in a timely, safe and affordable way without prejudice or barriers. It's basically, it's enabling them to live as their gender. So this is quite broad. [00:10:30] So it's around um, informed consent, um, gender affirming healthcare, that is based on the needs of a person, but all healthcare, as well as not being scared to go to the doctor. Um, access to gender affirming clothing, access to bathrooms, so it's what the person needs to flourish as themselves. And then lastly, we have recognition. So, there's, there's two forms of this, so within a macro and a micro system. So, for [00:11:00] example, being referred to as your name and your gender, um, and your pronouns is recognition, being seen as yourself. And at a macro level, it's, it's twofold. It's within the legal system. So. being able to easily change your gender and your name and then having IT systems that accurately refer to your name and your gender and don't store your previous information so you can easily be misgendered. But it's also at a data level, um, in the form of making sure that we [00:11:30] are seen in statistics and research as well. So, um, also a big shout out to Counting Ourselves. And, um, the identify survey, because that meant that we could see ourselves in data for the first time and we could specifically see our needs. And there's a thing, especially as a policy maker myself, I can't develop policy unless I have research and data to do that, to see what the needs of my community is. Cool. So, um, [00:12:00] yeah, just in summary, um, the framework again isn't, isn't designed to, to make people conform to having to do one approach or one thing. And so it's this kind of idea of, um, being federalist, not fragmented. Um, so federalism, uh, just briefly, uh, is just about, there might be different groups doing their different things on different timelines. Um, but having a unifying authority, which is an agreed to reference point that kind of guides. and unifies us, um, when we might come together in various forms, and it leaves spaces for those [00:12:30] differences, because again, the, the visibility of those differences, the different shades that we have and, and the way in which we work, act, and relate, and be, very, very important, um, to preserve and make visible. Um, and it's, again, uh, I guess creating a resource to have some strategic solidarity there, um, which is a part of that revolutionary and transformative culture that we are and will continue to build. Um, and just lastly, we're very open to feedback on it. It is, um, a work in progress and we want it to be used by people. So it's both [00:13:00] for, in my mind, policy makers, activists, academics, just as a reference point, um, especially in my field of policy. Um, I think it's very important to have. Um, so that people, people don't know what they don't know, right? So you need to be able to give them reference points at the times of needs that this pocket, this group of people have that is different than cis people. Yeah, cool. So those are just some of our references. And thank you for listening.

IRN: 3673
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_studies_now_arielle_keil_abrau.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004963
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1107374
TITLE: Arielle Keil Abrau - Rainbow Studies Now
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Arielle Keil Abrau
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Arielle Keil Abrau; Asog; Babaylan; Filipino; Philippines; Rainbow Studies Now: Legacies of Community (2023); animation; artificial intelligence; autoethnography; film; gender identity; storytelling; transgender; voice
DATE: 23 November 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington, Kelburn Parade, Kelburn, Wellington
CONTEXT: Arielle Keil Abrau presents at the Rainbow Studies Now symposium, held on 23 November 2023 at Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: December 2023
TEXT: Hi, I am Ari. Um, so my research is titled, sorry, um, which means the first transgender balan, the original queer people of the Philippines. And the script at the top is actually our indigenous script. Um, so my research adopts an autoethnographic creative practice led approach. [00:00:30] It draws upon my own experiences as well as cultural and historical context. The central driving question to my inquiry is how do transgender women find their voice? This question is not just a query into individual experiences, but it also delves into the collective narrative of a transgender woman, particularly the context. Of the Philippines [00:01:00] indigenous culture. In exploring this, my research seeks to uncover, narrate the stories of transgender women through the lens of historical and cultural significance, connecting the past with the present and exploring the evolution of gender identity in Filipino society. So about me, 'cause it's all ethnographic. Um. I'm Arielle, you she, her pronouns, and I was born in Davao City, Philippines, [00:01:30] as a trans, as a binary transgender woman. I began my transition in 2017, um, this is important to note because transgender is an umbrella term for a diverse community of people, and there are many transgender people who do not identify with any gender binary, so all expressions of Trans are valid. I'm not blue eyed. Um, As a [00:02:00] first generation Philippine immigrant, my identity intertwines my cultural roots with the new contexts I navigate. This intersectionality of cultures has been an influential aspect of my life and research. Growing up in a Christian slash Catholic environment has also significantly shaped my worldview. It influenced how I perceive the world and myself in my formative years. These are not just personal details, they are integral to my approach in [00:02:30] this autoethnographic study. They provide the lens through which I view and interpret the themes of transgender identity and re indigenization in my research. Um, so, these are two terms in the Filipino language that are essential to grasp. The full depth of the cultural and historical context of my study. So the first is Babaylan. So, Babaylan were pivotal figures in pre colonial [00:03:00] Philippine society. They were shamans, healers, and spiritual leaders, revered for their wisdom and connections to the spiritual world. Babaylans were typically women, but the role was not exclusively gendered and could include any feminine individuals. But bylands were custodians of ancient knowledge, mediators between the spiritual and physical worlds. They held esteemed positions in society and often led tribes in the absence of the Datu or chief.[00:03:30] Um, the other term is Asog. Um, so this refers to individuals who were assigned male at birth. Like, a western way of putting it. Um, and Adopted roles and identities typically associated with women in the context of pre colonial Philippines. Our SOGs were often respected members of society playing unique roles in religious and cultural rituals such as babaylans. Um, there is no actual word for [00:04:00] transgender in the Philippines. We have like an umbrella term baklap, but that's normally used to describe homosexual men. We have that. Um, In my research, the concept of voice is explored in its rich and multifaceted dimensions. I'll go over the, I'll first go over the sonic nuances of voice, uh, vocal transformation. So, a key element in my [00:04:30] work is a vocal transformation that charts the journey from boyhood through adolescence into womanhood. This transformation is more than a physical change. It's a symbol of evolving identity and self perception. Um, so I'll be using AI to bring this to life. Um, so I'm going to be feeding an AI model like old videos and stuff and it can recreate [00:05:00] my voice which I'll show at the very end. Um, and voice as a cornerstone of Identity. In this context, voice transcends mere sound. It becomes a cornerstone of identity, a personal signature that is as unique and evolving as the individual represents. So moving beyond the sonic voice in my research is also symbolic. Um, so it covers [00:05:30] identity formation, forming a deeper understanding of self and re indigenization as a means to find your voice, um, and also honors indigenous oral traditions of storytelling and passing down knowledge. So that's like my genealogy. Um, the part that's most important to my research is My paternal grandma from Leyte, um, and she's part of the [00:06:00] Wadai tribe. Um, so in exploring my roots and cultural identity, the Wadai tribe holds a significant place, especially as it connects to my paternal grandmother from Leyte, a region in Mindanao, Philippines. My grandmother's Wadai heritage was something I grew up knowing little about, a reflection of the broader narrative of indigenous cultures in the Philippines. As a child, my understanding of the Wadai was framed through the stories of my father who described them as [00:06:30] fierce warriors, never shying away from a fight, a trait he amusingly attributed to my grandmother's feisty demeanor. This portrayal of the Wadai as resilient and tenacious resonates with a historical background, but my family's knowledge about our deeper indigenous roots was limited. In the Philippines, there has been a tendency to embrace colonial influence, often celebrating it. A consequence of this has been the [00:07:00] marginalization of indigenous cultures, perceived as primitive and largely excluded from mainstream education and discourse. The lack of emphasis on our indigenous heritage meant that much of it wasn't passed down through generations, leaving gaps in our understanding of our own ancestry. And so, where did my research come from? So, my research is rooted in a personal journey of [00:07:30] rediscovering my cultural heritage, a journey that became more pressing during a period of homelessness and estrangement for my family. This phase of my life deepened the gap between This phase of my life deepened the gap between me and my native language, Bisaya, as well as traditional Filipino customs. Growing up as a boy in a traditional household, I wasn't [00:08:00] involved in cooking, which further distanced me from an essential aspect of my culture. This sense of disconnection ignited my quest for re indigenisation. To reconnect with and embrace my Filipino and Wairoots. It's a journey that started long before my research project and continues to evolve. So my film will be a short, [00:08:30] stop motion animated piece, taking visual cues from Lottie Reiniger's classic shadow puppetry, but re interpreted. With a digital medium, this fusion of traditional and modern techniques creates a distinctive visual narrative. The film will also feature a bilingual script that rhymes both Bisaya and English together. This was particularly challenging as we use our tongue differently when speaking different languages. [00:09:00] My film presents a fictional origin story of how the first transgender woman became a babaylan. The film blends the spiritual worldview of my ancestors with a narrative of my own transformation from a queer child to womanhood. Central to the film is a perspective on gender as understood by my ancestors. While fictional, the story deeply Honours the indigenous practice of oral story, oral storytelling. [00:09:30] The, the fusion of a creative and fictional account with my personal journey showcases the powerful role of storytelling in shaping identities and preserving cultural legacies. Um, so the film basically is about a little boy who defines, defies traditions and expectations, and in doing so he is exiled. On his own in the forest, he transforms into the woman he always knew he was in [00:10:00] sight. Sorry. Blessed with powers of divinity, she returns home to share her gift to redefine tradition. Um, so I had, like, I ran into a few copyright issues, um, surrounding, um, Indigenous tattoo motifs. So, um, my initial intention was to utilize images from a book, but I [00:10:30] quickly encountered a roadblock due to copyright restrictions. These motifs, deeply tied to my heritage, were suddenly inaccessible in their original form, presenting a unique dilemma in an authentic In authentically representing my cultural background. Um, so, those are the key elements that I want to incorporate into my own interpretation.[00:11:00] Um, so, I based it off, um, the Babayin script, and I picked key words, and then That, so, um, this one embodies the complex emotions tied to the experience of being estranged in solitude. The configuration of lines carries a dual meaning, both collectively and individually. The [00:11:30] uppermost row is designed to evoke the image of a person with their Arms raised high in exaltation, capturing the essence of freedom and liberation that accompanies estrangement. The lines are not just static symbols, they resonate with a dynamic posture found in indigenous Filipino dances. I don't know if you guys watch Drag [00:12:00] Race Philippines. So the curved lines represent two things in Gbagbago, which means to change. It firstly represents how change is not linear, especially within my transition, which is reflected in the curvature of the lines. The lines are also intended to resemble the waves of the ocean, as somewhat I were proficient. Fishermen, as many of what I resided by the sea. Babayes, so [00:12:30] the arrow, arrow slash directional motifs, are derived from the shapes I created from rearranging the babayin. Um, the arrows also represent the arrows on my estrogen pill. Um, but they also, um, Represent the peaks and valleys of my experience of womanhood, emotions, and rude awakenings, such as benefiting from [00:13:00] preferential treatment due to being a woman in a patriarchal society, though this often thinly veils ulterior motives, also while experiencing misogyny for the first time and throughout my transition. Um, so this one is a neck piece, um, tattoo. Um, so it basically slowly comes together as the film progresses. So as you can [00:13:30] see here, the tattoos are on there and it develops. So these are just The base of the figures, but I'm going to be adding more decorations and stuff later And this is my storyboarding for the film, um, and I just I'm gonna end with this. From the resilience and strength I [00:14:00] held as a young boy, I laid down the foundations for the woman I would become. Back then, I faced a world where colonial doctrines tried to suppress my true self, and I often felt like an outcast. Those early battles had now become integral to my research, bridging personal experience with academic inquiring. In the indigenous and queer community, our academic contributions and our voices do more than just speak. They drive social [00:14:30] discourse and serve as powerful tools for cultural preservation. If we were strong before, we are stronger today.

IRN: 3672
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_studies_now_alison_day.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004962
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1107373
TITLE: Alison Day - Rainbow Studies Now
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Day
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Alison Day; Homosaurus; Rainbow Studies Now: Legacies of Community (2023); Shannon Novak; archives; metadata; passive collecting; representation
DATE: 23 November 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington, Kelburn Parade, Kelburn, Wellington
CONTEXT: Alison Day presents at the Rainbow Studies Now symposium, held on 23 November 2023 at Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: December 2023
TEXT: Tēnā koutou katoa, I'm Alison Day and thank you for coming to my presentation today on Queering Art Archives, the GLAMU sector, which is galleries, libraries, archives, museums and universities, so I did everything in New Zealand, and queer collecting in Aotearoa, New Zealand. So, just from, um, quick presentation overview, so, just, uh, I'm going to talk about queer collecting, my PhD research, and some of my data findings so far, and some further suggestions around queering RGLAM use. And I'm also going to just [00:00:30] note I'm going to be using LGBTTFIQ plus for New Zealand, LGBTQ plus for international, and queer as umbrella terms in this talk. So, I'd just like to start with a quick story, just to give you a flavour of the research I'm doing and some of the themes and narratives I'm uncovering, particularly around queer collecting. Queer collecting can take many forms, be a variety of formats, and some of these can have hidden meanings. And the photo on the left, as many of you probably know, is Shannon Novak, an artist and activist who works in the queer space. And in the [00:01:00] middle is the new Plymouth Clock Tower, covered in a large scale public piece of art by Shannon. Now Shannon told me, and I've had permission to interview her, share this with you, that the official heteronormative narrative is that the art, um, represents local heritage. But Shannon had an underlying and much more personal narrative in mind when he undertook this work. He saw it firstly as a giant rainbow finger to the new, to New Plymouth for all the homophobic abuse he'd suffered, endured when growing up there. And secondly, as a beacon. of Rainbow Hope. [00:01:30] So this queer narrative, personal to Shannon, is not in the public space, although he has documented it on paper. So the point being is that there's all sorts of queer stories that are important to make visible, you know, these underlying hidden meanings, to discover and preserve, to include that queer perspective for all members, um, of the queer communities in our national, regional, and local narratives. So how come, how did I come to research this? So just some context, you're probably all familiar with this anyway. Um, so marginalised communities are [00:02:00] often hidden in history. And LGBTQ plus politically active, particularly from the 1960s, wanting law reform to stop them from being seen as criminals under the legislation of the time. A lot of stigma, a lot of discrimination. And as you know, homosexuality was illegal in New Zealand until 1986. So, to document that activism, community archives were set up, not just in New Zealand, but around the world. Um, ANZ LAG ANZ, um, as we've heard, which has now got a new name change, was the first independent archive in New [00:02:30] Zealand from the late 1970s, when it was had an original name, to archive their activist history. So there's a background, we've also got, we've got three in New Zealand, so we've got Pride NZ, by Gareth, and we've also got the Charlotte Museum up in Auckland. So are LGBTQ plus collected and represented now by mainstream institutions, and this of course is not just a New Zealand issue, but one that's worldwide. And this quote is from Jim Downs chapter in the book, Like People in History, on American LGBTQ and he [00:03:00] contends that the role of queer independent archives is still very important today for a range of reasons, including mistrust of mainstream organizations. So is it the same here in New Zealand? Well, a couple of recent articles in Stuff, which, from 2021, that one, and the spinoff from 2020, seem to indicate a similar situation, and I wanted to investigate this further, as being able to see yourself and your communities represented in history and the archives in the national narratives is important.[00:03:30] So this was my PhD, so basically my two research objectives is basically, so, how are the Glamus getting on? Um, with LGBT TFIQ Plus collecting and documenting, what are they actually doing. And then to look at the relationships, the kind of relationships that exist and the connections between LGBT TFIQ Plus donors, the communities and independent archives and also with the GLAMU institutions. And I'll just put the definition down there, but you can read that. So just to illustrate what I sort of [00:04:00] mean, this is an example, um, There's a picture here of the rainbow jacket that was worn by Louisa Wall, um, who was the instigator of the Marriage Equality Bill back in 2012. And she wore this in Parliament during the debates, and also when the bill was passed. And she gifted this jacket to the Auckland Museum for their Tamaki Herenga Waka Stories of Auckland collection, and it's online as well, and she has close connections with the museum, and she was happy to make this donation. So underpinning my research is queer theory and in the [00:04:30] glam you sector this seeks to challenge the dominance of the heteronormative constructs So the sort of the mainstream, um, looking really to advocate for fluidity and multiple expressions of gender and sexual identity So looking at better ways of description and identification this improves discovery Visibility and also means we can get rid of some of that inappropriate terminology, which We also need to change the lens. So we need to think about how we, um, switching the focus from the heteronormative to gender and [00:05:00] sexuality inclusive. Looking for the hidden. Thinking about how items are described. Looking for the queer in collections and items. And also, importantly, to develop relationships with New Zealand's queer community archives and their communities. So to find out what's happening in this group. In this space, for the GLAMUs, I used a qualitative survey which went on to some interviews. So just for the survey, I sent out, um, 38 emails with a link to the survey, and I got 33 responses [00:05:30] back. I got 8 from the universities, all the universities replied. And, um, 25 Glam Institution. This led on to 30 in depth interviews with Glam and University Information Professionals. I have done interviews with donors. I've also done interviews with donors who donated to Lagans and the Charlotte Museum. And I've also talked to donors. garrison several times and so that that is a separate part of my research. So what have I found so far from this? Well I discovered that I'm probably not telling you anything you don't already know but [00:06:00] collection policy plus collecting approaches plus connections plus descriptions equals the under representation and under representation of the LGBT TFIQ communities in Aotear's Glamou sector. So, to break this down a bit further. So, collection policy. So, all institutions have collecting policies. They all have these, what they call, broad collecting strategies. Again, they're all seen as diverse and inclusive because they're really broad. The responses I've had from everyone [00:06:30] in, working in these sectors is they're all open to collecting from the queer community, so long as, the big thing with New Zealand is it has regional boundaries, so they won't accept stuff from, so if you're in the New Plymouth area, for example, it's got to be within the, sort of, like, Taranaki area. Um, but very few institutions have specific policies for marginalized communities and even less so with direct to LGBTQ plus. What this means is, is that the collections are predominantly Pakiha and [00:07:00] cis cisgender are the norm, shall we say. Um, If there are any queer collections in there, they often also reflect the dominant sections like cisgender gay men, but rarely if ever represent any of the other groups within queer communities. So, collecting approaches. So what happens here? Well, collections are shaped by the collecting approaches. And in New Zealand, the way, um, most glamues will collect by doing passive collection. passive collecting, which means [00:07:30] they receive donations from people rather than going out and actively collecting, which means that most of the donations are offered from the mainstream groups. It's the same people who keep donating because they're the ones who do it. Um, so rather than what they call active collecting, which means you're going out to connect with communities to create content, to develop relationships and collect things like those oral histories and also to get them to think about donating. So what are the, um, what are the constraints then to doing active collecting? Well, [00:08:00] basically backlogs. One of them is that most institutions have backlogs. One of them mentioned they had unaccessioned collections, which means the collections come in and no one's actually looked at them for the 1990s and they sort of think they should look at those first. And a lack of storage space. So this is actually a really big issue. Um, so several institutions have had what they call monitoriums on all physical donations, some lasting for over a year, because they just can't fit anything else in. And the usual lack of resources, which is lack of time, staff, and, um, money, [00:08:30] which might get worse, unfortunately, um, in the future. So, connections. So, if you want to do active collecting, you have got to develop connections with your communities. And curators and archivists are very aware of the lack of representation in their collections, and they'd really like to do something about it. So, firstly, one of the things you could do is to show that institutions are safe spaces, this idea of developing some trust. And I put there the Safe Space Alliance, which is a free um, free initiative, actually been settled by [00:09:00] Shannon Novak actually, and, um, you, basically you get an approval and you can display this prominently, so it shows basically that it's a safe space for people from queer communities to go, and secondly, that their collections are going to be preserved and protected, because that's another thing, is you don't want to put it in there and then find like it's, you know, been shoveled out, it's been deaccessioned about two years later. But, barriers to this, well, first of all, you can't, as you know, it takes time to develop relationships and the focus has to be on the [00:09:30] relationship. You can't just rock in there and say, hey, you know, we'd really like a donation and then you get a donation and then you just disappear again because that just makes things worse. So you've got to have the time, the staff, and the resources to sustain and keep a relationship going. And the other problem is that people have mentioned is this lack of contacts in the sort of LGBT, TFIQ plus communities. One person has mentioned they'd love to do some oral histories with the older queer community in their region. Um, she thought many were becoming frail, but they've got no time, [00:10:00] resources, or connections with the community. I was thinking, great, somebody could just go straight in there and start doing some stuff. Really good. very much. Another issue, um, which is one that's quite dear to my heart actually, if I can take a minute, is trying to find queer items. It's this idea of description and metadata. So if you've got, if you want to actually go online and search for something, then you've got to put in keywords. And if you don't have any keywords that represent anything to do with the queer communities, then it's really difficult to find them. So the first thing is, is the classification systems used were [00:10:30] designed in the US in the 19th century. century. So they're absolutely not neutral. And the terminology in them for gender identity and sexual orientation is outdated, limited, and often inappropriate and or harmful. And it's very hard to get this changed. The library, it's Library of Congress and trying to get it changed is very, very difficult. It takes ages. So there's trying to think about ways to work around. So it's also hard to find queer items. So in a New Zealand context, um, LGBTQ a terminology. Um, if [00:11:00] used, and you can often go and search and probably find nothing, um, isn't standardized. So there's lots of different umbrella terms, lots of different acronyms, as you're probably all aware. You might find people will use queer, there might be pride, but then that might bring up some photos from the 1930s of people looking happy and whatever, so um, there's little use beyond gay and lesbian. So it's actually, and also the other problem is, is it's in those, some of the collections in, that are already there, trying to, items are unidentified because nobody's actually looked at them with a queer [00:11:30] lens, or they're still in those unaccessioned ones. So, what can we do? How can we queer our GLAMUs? This is my big thing. What am I, what am I going to suggest? Well, first of all is um, firstly have to think about some suggestions. So using a queer lens, um, thinking about how to update existing collections and descriptions. Identify the gaps and update terminology. And the other thing is more flexible policies. And one of these things is actually to have more defined areas of priority, I think, so um, to get, [00:12:00] so they're defined in the priority, so LGBT, TFIQ plus are in there along with other marginalized groups. And one way also to help with all of this is to start building, sorry, that's my phone! Sorry about that. Okay, backwards one. Oh yeah, um, right, so building connections with queer communities and queer community archives. Because basically you need, um, like using queer advocates, so people who have contacts in both the GLAM sector, the GLAM [00:12:30] youth sector, because there's actually lots of people who, uh, and I identify who also work in libraries and archives and museums, um, people who are like important in the, you know, well known in the communities who could maybe sort of try and, you know, sort of build these connections here, particularly around projects as. And try and diversify those collecting approaches. Get some new stuff in. Get some, what we call contemporary collecting. So, this type of stuff. So, rather than just relying on donations. Because that's not working. So, there is some things going on. Before you all [00:13:00] think there's absolutely nothing happening. There's some actually really cool stuff going on. So, some of the examples, of course, obviously, we've looked on the Te Papa website. They've got a really big, um, they've got an online site. space there, put here up the trans past, trans present, uh, project. So Manawatu Heritage, um, they've published a couple of articles, it's called Back Issues in the Manawatu Standard on, uh, queer history. There was also one by one of their, one of their donors as well. And they are collaborating with MALGRA on an oral history project and once all those are sort of, um, there's help and advice and they've got a [00:13:30] database they're setting up for that. And just, this is one, uh, for the Dowse. This is, um, the Dowse owns an art museum. And, um, how they do it is they integrate queer in their various exhibitions. So it's, they're not, sometimes but not always, identifying or distinguishing artworks and, or artists. The art, the art world is quite interesting actually, I have to say. Anyway, so for example, um, Jacob Rawlinson, this is one on their website now. He's, um, got a Fairyland exhibition there. This is on their website, and he's offering, uh, some [00:14:00] alternative histories of queer culture and nature. Um, which basically takes you on a queer journey through the dark forests of fantasy literature and pop culture. So, there's, yeah, there's things definitely going on. And description, my thing. How can we improve description? Well, there are quite a lot of stuff going on, particularly coming out of the States, because of also the stuff around people of colour and that type of thing. So this has all been moved on as well by the Trans Metadata Collective, [00:14:30] who published the Metadata Best Practices for Trans and Gender Diverse Resources a few years ago. Um, basically to give, offer guidelines for those in the cultural heritage space to more appropriately describe trans items when trying to navigate through. Things like the classification systems, like the Library of Congress subject headings. 'cause I think there's categories, sexual minorities, which is Yeah. So I'm now part of the queer Metadata Collective and I'm on the description group and we are looking to try and produce a similar set of guidelines now [00:15:00] to describe for sort of queer items. So that whole thing about. What do you, what sort of keywords do you put in, how do you tag things, so that there's some consistency, which is of course a real tension, because the idea is that the communities are fluid, but then trying to find things, you have to have some consistency, because otherwise, how are you going to be representative and visible out there, so we are trying to work through all of those things, there's no real answer, it's just trying to find something that You know, meets needs and doesn't upset too many people. And the other thing is that we can work around with [00:15:30] the Library of Congress is to use Homosaurus. So this is, there's quite a few control vocabularies, but this is one that is now being used by the National Library of New Zealand. Um, Alexander Turnbull, and they've written a blog about it. I'll put it down there, you can have a look. And this means you can use some of these terminologies, um, in addition to, or get around the Library of Congress. So, University of Canterbury has been looking at that, so this is hopefully something I can suggest for more institutions to use over here. Um, and you can also add in New Zealand [00:16:00] terms to that as well, to make it more appropriate for, um, the New Zealand context. So, yeah. Those are my references. Um, any questions? And thank you very much for listening.

IRN: 3667
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/transgender_day_of_remembrance_2023.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004961
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1107372
TITLE: Transgender Day of Remembrance 2023
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Fionn McKenzie; Paul Barber; Rosemary Lawrence; Sonia Groes-Petrie; The Glamaphones
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Alok Vaid-Mano; Fionn McKenzie; J. Jennifer Espinoza; Paul Barber; Posie Parker; Ricardo Menendez March; Rosemary Lawrence; Sonia Groes-Petrie; St Andrew's on the Terrace; Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington; The Disinformation Project; The Glamaphones; Transgender Day of Remembrance; Transgressive transitions (research, 2023); acceptance; belonging; disinformation; eugenics; far-right ideologies; far-right politics; gender binary; gender diversity; gender expression; gender identity; gender wars; patriarchal system; pride; radical love; resilience; self determination; trans; transgender
DATE: 19 November 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: St Andrew's on the Terrace, 30 The Terrace, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the service at St Andrews on the Terrace, Wellington to commemorate Transgender Day of Remembrance. The service occurred on Sunday 19 November, with the Day of Remembrance on the 20th November. A stereo recording of The Glamaphones can be heard here. A special thank you to St Andrew's for allowing this event to be recorded and shared. This recording has been edited, with some parts of the service not included.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: December 2023
TEXT: [00:00:00] We come together from many places, pasts and communities, carrying all the stories of where we've been, the messiness of our current struggles, our hopes and dreams for the future, whether they seem tenuous or tenacious, come into this time of connection, bringing who you truly are. Our presence together makes this space sacred.[00:00:30] We gather in this place to remember and grieve. May we find moments of stillness and peace. We gather to be challenged to change and grow. May our hearts and minds be open to what we hear and feel. We come together to renew our commitment to justice. May we find new energy and inspiration for the work ahead. [00:01:00] Be seated. A warm welcome to everyone, and a special welcome to those who are visiting us today. Um, [00:01:30] and especially my Glamourphones Choir whānau, thank you so much for joining us again. Um, we've got a few visitors from other communities as well, some people who usually go to St Peter's. So, really lovely to have you with us, and um, thank you for joining us today. Uh, We usually have one of the children come up and light the rainbow candle at this point. I see there's a little person there. Um, would they like to come and light a candle for us? Yeah? [00:02:00] Jakob. Welcome Jakob. So we have a little candle here and this is our candle that symbolises our inclusive community and the special place of children in our community. And maybe you two can, do you want to hold it together? Take this one over to that one, yeah. Eternal Spirit, life giver, pain bearer, love maker, source of all that [00:02:30] is and that shall be, Father and Mother of us all, loving God in whom is heaven, the hallowing of your name echo through the universe. The way of your justice be followed by the peoples of the world. Your heavenly will be done by all created beings. Your commonwealth of peace and freedom, sustain our hope and come on earth. With the [00:03:00] bread we need for today, feed us. In the hurts we absorb from one another, forgive us. In times of temptation and test, strengthen us. From trials too great to endure, spare us. From the grip of all that is evil, free us. For you reign in the glory of the power that is love now and forever. Amen.[00:03:30] The reading from the Hebrew Bible is a retelling of Psalm 31. In you, O God, I seek refuge. Do not let me be worn down by the shame put upon me. Listen to the whispers of my heart. I trust in [00:04:00] you, the solid ground I can return to. A safe place where I can regather my strength. Divine wisdom, guide me through the obstacles all around. When people try to entrap me in rigid ways of being, I will let my spirit expand into the space you hold for me. [00:04:30] On this journey, I have been hurt again and again. There are groups who seek to erase me and those I love. We are taunted by strangers. And even people we once called friends now see us as broken. There are times when distress overwhelms me. I have [00:05:00] wept until I'm exhausted. My body and soul ache with grief. You have heard me crying out to you. Let your shine, let your light shine upon me. Be near me when the world feels unsafe. Friends, don't wait idly. [00:05:30] Let your hearts take courage in the knowledge God's love is boundless. God's path leads us toward justice. And we look towards the day. When the divine vision of radical inclusion comes into fullness. And the New Testament reading is from Luke, [00:06:00] chapter 10, verses 25 to 37. The parable of the Good Samaritan. An expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. As teacher, he said, what must I do to inherit eternal life? Jesus replied, What is written in the law? What do you read there? And he answered, You shall love the Lord your God with all your [00:06:30] heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind and your neighbor as yourself. And Jesus said, You have given the right answer. Do this to And you will live. But wanting to vindicate himself, he asked Jesus, And who is my neighbor? Jesus replied, A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho [00:07:00] and fell into the hands of robbers who stripped him, beat him, and took off, leaving him half dead. Now by chance, a priest was going down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, he passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, while traveling, came upon him, and when he saw him, [00:07:30] he was moved with compassion. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, treating them with oil and wine. Then he put him on his own animal, Took him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said, Take care of him, and when I come back, I will repay you whatever more you spend. Which [00:08:00] of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of the robbers, Jesus asked. And the expert in law said, The one who showed mercy, and Jesus said, Go and do likewise. And the contemporary reading is a quote from an interview with Alok Vaid-Mano, a trans South Asian writer, [00:08:30] performance artist, and activist. This is Alec's response to a question about how they practice joy during a time when there's a lot of fear and grief. The first is learning history, because we have this deep need to pretend as if everything is unprecedented, and it's just not true. There have been so many people before us who have felt the same sense of despair, and [00:09:00] I'm deeply curious about what they did with their despair, and how they navigated lives and societies that told them that they shouldn't exist. I take so much hope, especially during Pride. From the legacy of my trans ancestors. Imagine knowing that you'd be arrested for going outside, and going outsides anyways. Imagine being [00:09:30] arrested 20 to 40 times, and still going outside. Imagine the kinds of everyday brutality, and yet, the self knowledge it took. to continue to go outside as my transistors did. And so I tell myself, okay, why did they do it? The only probable reason that they could do it [00:10:00] is because they loved me, because they wanted to create a world where no one had to suffer like they did, and they birthed that possibility for me. So I have to do it for the next gen. I have to really fight to make sure that no one else has to experience this pain. That's what gives me hope. History [00:10:30] informs my future. For the word in scripture, for the word among us, for the word within us. We give thanks.[00:14:00] The transgender day of remembrance was started by transgender advocate Gwendolyn Ann Smith, who said, The Transgender Day of Remembrance seeks to highlight the losses we face due to anti transgender bigotry and violence. I am no stranger to the need for our rights [00:14:30] and the right to simply exist as first and foremost, with so many seeking to erase transgender people, sometimes in the most brutal ways possible. It is vitally important that we are remembered, and we, those we lose are remembered, and we continue to fight for justice. So today we light a candle in the memory of the 320 trans and gender diverse people who have been reported as [00:15:00] murdered in the year just passed. God of peace, we give thanks for each precious life. For the divine light they shone upon in the world, and we mourn their senseless deaths. May all those who grieve find comfort and support. We acknowledge that these reported deaths only represent a fraction of the loss of life. [00:15:30] We light a candle for those whose deaths were not reported, and whose identities are erased as a last act of violence. God of justice, you know their names. Enfold them in your love. We pray for resolve to root out the injustice, ignorance and cruelty. And we pray that all those who perpetuate hate and violence will be led to [00:16:00] restorative justice. We light a candle for all the trans and gender diverse people. We light a candle for all those who have died because society did not ensure they had shelter, safe and accessible health care, and adequate income to survive. God of liberation, strengthen and guide us in the work that is needed to bring about a world where all can live with dignity and thrive.[00:16:30] We light a candle for all those who did not receive the love, support and acceptance they needed. Who internalized the violence of the world and took their own lives. Our hearts break for those who were only children and could no longer continue in the struggle just to exist. God of love, help us to embody your radical inclusion and to propagate [00:17:00] the seeds of acceptance throughout our families, churches and societies. On this day, we stand together against hate, and we renew our commitment to work for justice. In this way, we not only honor those we lost, we affirm the lives of the living, being allies, activists, and advocates as we affirm the truth that all life is precious. We light a [00:17:30] candle for the future we yearn for. God of all time. You kindle the flames of hope. We will never let them die away. Amen.[00:19:30] In our contemporary reading today, we had words from Alok Vaid-Mano, elsewhere in the same podcast. They speak about the weaponization of biology, and how the arguments about biology determining the possibilities of who we can be, and what we can do with our lives, have been used in the past to ban women from [00:20:00] education and voting, and to vilify people with diverse sexualities. They explain how these arguments, now being turned on trans people, are deeply entangled with the history of eugenics. White Protestants in Europe developed a theory of race suicide, which was based on their fear of non white, non Christian immigrants outnumbering them, and gaining power and rights. In this context, queer people [00:20:30] experienced torturous medical and psychological interventions to fix them, so that they could continue reproducing the white race. Fast forward to today in the USA where hundreds of pieces of anti trans and anti abortion legislation have been introduced or are being drafted. These issues are coinciding because they both undermine the idea that women equals mother equals vessel for reproduction. [00:21:00] When trans people expand the possibilities of gender and what we imagine femininity and masculinity to be, This threatens the system in the same way that women taking on leadership roles or work outside the home, or having autonomy over their reproductive organs, threaten the system. The threat is both to physical reproduction, but also to the ongoing production of the social and political structures that keep men, specifically white, cis, heterosexual men, holding [00:21:30] power. The response to this threat is violence. But our response must be healing, compassion, and love. Alok articulates it a lot better than I'll be able to, so you should go away and listen to some of their work or read it. But for now I want to give you one more quote from them. Stop framing this as a minority issue, and reframe this as a universal attack on self determination. Every [00:22:00] one of us should be able to determine our own gender. No one else should be able to tell us what we look like, how we should act, and what we should do with our bodies. So we need you to show up in this moment, not just as acts of allyship, but out of an insistence in your own dignity, your own capacity to transform, your own love of self. And trans people are blowing the whistle and we're trying to let you know, if they're targeting [00:22:30] us, it's not a question of if, it's a question of when. This is endangering the fabric of our democracy. End quote. Here in Aotearoa, the Disinformation Project published a research report on the concerning ways that far right ideologies are being normalised and spread here, and threatening our democracy. Professor Mark Wilson from the School of Psychology at Te Hiringa Waka University, responding to the report, [00:23:00] asks, How do we get from individuals making decisions about their gender, or what even gender means, to battles for the soul and the future of humanity? The report suggests that events such as those surrounding the recent Posey Parker controversy are framed in terms of issues around gender, but also serve as an entry point into an otherwise hidden world dominated by neo Nazi ideology. And that doesn't stop at demonising people on the basis of gender. Come for the gender [00:23:30] wars, in the hope you'll stick around for the racism and misogyny. Professor Joanna Kidman, sociologist also at Te Herenga Waka. Describes this as a swarm of hate that gathers and spreads across diverse groups of followers. Eventually, the swarm moves on, but it leaves a lasting imprint, and that's risky for targeted groups. I'm sharing these ideas not because I feel like, not because I think that you need to feel personally [00:24:00] threatened to be motivated to take action. I think we're gathered in this community because we know how important it is to stand with those who are marginalized. But I also think it's important to see the whole swarm. To notice how it's gathering and growing because we need to find ways to disrupt it. I also believe as a congregation established by white colonial settlers, however ethical we may believe those particular settlers to have been, it's important for [00:24:30] us to reflect on how we may be part of maintaining structures of power and privilege. We also need to be aware of how white supremacy, patriarchy, and the gender binary harm us all so that we can take responsibility for our own healing. Which brings me to what I hope you will take away as an overall theme from this service. The healing and transformative power of radical love. [00:25:00] Earlier in the readings we heard from a look about how they experience the bravery of their ancestors as an act of love. They have also spoken of how the love they experienced within their family, and from their aunt in particular, felt so real and true to them that they knew that the hatred expressed to them online and on the streets couldn't be the truth. There is plenty of research that shows that the mental health and suicide disparities for queer people evaporate when we [00:25:30] exist in spaces that accept us. When we have people in our schools, churches and families who make us feel their unconditional love, who make love real in their words and actions, it's less of a struggle for us to survive. Having somewhere or someone who makes us feel we belong makes such a difference. We're going to have a poem in a few minutes by Jennifer Espinoza. And I was tossing up two different [00:26:00] possibilities from her poems. The one that we're not going to have the whole poem has these lines. One day I will finally be alive. I can feel it. I know I will be alive. Because life is beautiful, and I am beautiful, and I belong in it. I belong in life. I may not belong in this life, but I belong in life. That [00:26:30] line's just been breaking my heart as I've been thinking about this. Preparing for this service. Earlier the glamophones sang, There's nothing I wouldn't do to make you feel my love. And I was thinking about the young people in my family, and all my hopes for them. I want them to always know they're cherished, and never to question whether they belong in this life. My love for them, and my dreams for their future, [00:27:00] motivate me to be open and take action on my own gender transition. Even though that's painful and feels risky in our current context. I already know from being a queer person in the church that it's harder to hate us when we're no longer abstract. When we turn out to be your child or sibling or someone you sit next to at a church meeting. I also know that I've only been able to learn more about myself because others have been open about who they are and I've seen reflections of myself. [00:27:30] There's a line in the next song that the choir will sing about the words that don't come out. And I think any queer person, and maybe any human, will be able to relate to that experience of having a big complicated mess that's all in your head, in your heart. Maybe you only held it in for a short time, or maybe it was years. For me, it was months, because I'm exhausted. I don't want to do another hard thing right now. I want to sit at camp for a while, catch my breath. [00:28:00] But then there's that call from deep inside me and far beyond me, urging me on this journey. And reminding me of the promise in Isaiah which says, I will be there with you, even when things are overwhelming, I'm right there with you. And so sometimes we need to be the ones to show that love and solidarity to others who are struggling and overwhelmed. For those of us who are part of the church, how can we make the unconditional [00:28:30] love of God real to those who are still being traumatized and who feel that love can't reach them? Now, I promised you a poem, it's coming in a moment. I just found out that the Paris Review has this, um, advice column, a poetry prescription where you can write in about whatever hard stuff is going on and whatever difficult emotions you're going through and you'll get recommended a poem, which I just think is a brilliant idea. And someone wrote in saying, I'm a trans [00:29:00] guy with religious parents who are unsupportive when they acknowledge my transness, and they really acknowledge it at all. I mainly feel that I do not belong or fit in with my family. And Sarah, who chose this poem, says, Jennifer's poem is about her body and her body's story. And it isn't the same as yours, but I do want you to know that you, too, are solid matter. I cannot see your shoulders from here, but I care about what they carry. I hope you find kinship with people [00:29:30] who recognize and celebrate you choosing a courageous, honest life. And that is my prayer too. It's a poem about resilience and connection. And the need for connection. And after that we'll have another song from the choir that also speaks to those themes. While we sing I invite you to think about who in your family, community, or further away needs to feel love. The love of God, or the love of kinship and connection and community. What lines are you [00:30:00] willing to cross to make them know that they are loved? The poem is called My Trans Body by Jennifer Espinoza. I pick up the phone and send you some words about my trans body. They float across America and are careful not to touch anything between, between us or worry about who sees them. They just crackle and spin and soar through the air, [00:30:30] observing scenes of everyday events. Many birds moving like a single animal. Trees swaying in place. Men being men to everything's detriment. When you hear my words it reminds me I'm solid matter. In some sense I am the daydream of an alternative universe. In another sense I'm far too present here. I say, look at my shoulders. Look at all that I carry.[00:31:00] But all anyone sees is their shape. No one hears what my legs do or remembers how I built them from nothing. How I trudged through the dull grey shit of a gendered life until I could no longer take it. They make movies about us being sad and dying, but they never talk about what it is for us to be alive. To love life so much, we choose this brokenness just to have the smallest taste of it. I'm not trying to play with [00:31:30] your emotions. I don't want to be your inspirational object. I'm saying I am here now. Embrace me. Or get out of my way. I have big plans. They involve staying alive. They involve claiming my space and never being quiet again.[00:35:30] Yes, it's true. The prayers of the people, love maker, life giver and pain bearer. We pray for healing and hope [00:36:00] for those who have witnessed or endured violence. May they be surrounded by support and love. We pray for healing for those who have turned their own pain into violence against others. May they come to see another way is possible. We pray for the wisdom, courage and unity. Needed to help us attack the roots of violence and genocide. The hatred, [00:36:30] intolerance and misinformation that dehumanises whole groups of people. Stripping away their rights and dignity. And eliminating whole communities. The lies that divide us into the false binaries of us and them. Friend and enemy. Good and evil. We pray that we may have the strength to overcome any fear or apathy that might hinder us from speaking up or taking action. [00:37:00] We pray that advocates and peacemakers will have the resources they need and have their work and words amplified and that governments and organizations will heed their calls. We pray these prayers in the name of the one who is beyond all norm. And in the book today, we pray for peace in all conflicted regions around the world. We pray for the desperately needed humanitarian aid to get to the people of [00:37:30] Gaza, and for the Israeli hostages to be freed. In the circle of prayer today, we think today of the people of Croatia and Slovenia, and the organizations working for reconciliation in Croatia and Slovenia. We hold all refugees in our hearts. and pray in particular for those who are still detained in Australia. We give thanks for recent progress, and pray that their calls for justice might yet be answered with compassion. [00:38:00] In New Zealand we remember those in Parliament, and today we name Ricardo Menendez March, list, and Honourable Mark Mitchell Whangaparaoa. Here in the Central Presbytery we pray for the leaders and people of Balblock, Leperton, Co operating Church and New Plymouth. We bring all our prayers together in the prayer for St. Andrews. If you are visiting with us this morning, I invite you, if you wish, to use this prayer for your place as well as for ours.[00:38:30] Bless your people, God, and renew our life in this place. Refresh us with a spirit of love and respect for all who follow the Jesus way. For those whose pathways differ from our own. and for care of the earth and its creatures. Bless the cities in which we live, that they may be places where honest dealing, good government, the desire for [00:39:00] beauty, and the care for others flourish. Bless this church, that what we know of your will may become what we do, and what we believe, the strong impulse of our worship and work. May we find ways to contribute to bringing about transformation of hearts and the transition of our world from grief to celebration, from shame [00:39:30] to pride, from ignorance and misinformation to understanding, from othering to connection and love, from complacency and helplessness to hope. And may we know hope to be an ongoing, unfurling action we support each other to continue. Amen.

IRN: 3665
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/trans_awareness_week_at_st_peters.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004959
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1107370
TITLE: Trans Awareness Week at St Peters
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Jem Traylen; Michael Toy; Rev. Jean Malcolm; Rev. Stephen King
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; 2020s; Anglicanism; Aotearoa New Zealand; Christianity; Ghuznee Street; Godfrey Wilson; Jem Traylen; Michael Toy; Posie Parker; Posie Parker counter protest; Rev. Jean Malcolm; Rev. Stephen King; St Andrew's on the Terrace; St Peter's church; Transgender awareness week; Wellington; Willis Street; acceptance; activism; bell tower; church; decoration; empowerment; equality; faith; inclusion; inclusive space; queer; queerphobia; spirituality; trans; trans awareness; transgender; transphobia
DATE: 12 November 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: St Peter's church, cnr Willis and Ghuznee Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the decorating of St Peter's church on Willis Street, Wellington. The church was decorated to honour and celebrate Transgender Awareness Week 2023.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: December 2023
TEXT: [00:00:00] So, my name is Michael Toy. I am a lay minister here at St. Peter's on Willis. It's an Anglican church in Te Aro, Wellington. And why are we here today? So, tomorrow starts the Trans Awareness Week. And so, here at St. Peter's, we have a history of Um, being activists and agitators for inclusion of all rainbow peoples, especially within the church, um, and outside of the church. And so, um, a few [00:00:30] of us have been, um, planning some decorations just to celebrate and mark the week and to make sure that everyone knows that. Churches can and should be places of inclusion, of belonging, of liberation, um, for all people, especially trans people. And when you say decorations, what are we talking about? Uh, so we've got quite a few plans. So we had some lofty plans, um, and had to scale them back down. We've, um, got some fabric that we weave through our fence. Um, we, during Pride Week, we do [00:01:00] a rainbow colored weave, um, and this week we'll do a weave with the, um, trans fly colors of blue and pink and white, um. And I think it's, it's a, it's a way of showing that, um, even those barriers, those places, um, that have been, um, obstacles, things like fences, um, they can be redeemed, and they can be places that enfold and protect, uh, and enclose, um, and not [00:01:30] just barriers to exclusion, for exclusion. Why was it important for you to do this today? Um, so I'm a queer Christian and, um, you know, it's just always been, uh, on my heart and on my, um, and my journey throughout Christianity, that story of liberation has been really important to me. And so it's really important to me for, um, Christians to be able to take a stand, uh, and to reclaim, um, this message of liberation when so many other churches and so many other [00:02:00] people of faith only use their religion as a tool for exclusion and control. Hi, I'm Jim Traylan. I'm a member of the St. Peter's on Willis Church, and we decided this year to support the kaupapa of Trans Awareness Week. In fact, we were approached by St. Andrews on the Terrace. Both churches have, in fact, being staunch advocates of queer rights, probably dating back to at least the 1960s. So it's a very proud tradition. [00:02:30] And, um, so yeah, we decided to join forces and not just, like, focus on Trans Day of Remembrance, but actually, um, maybe sort of highlight it all through the week. And we're getting quite excited because we're going to actually light up the church in Trans Pride colours. So we didn't even have to go to the council to ask for them to do some lighting. We're going to do it ourselves. So, St Peter's has a long history with rainbow communities. Can you talk to me a wee bit about that? I'm probably the wrong [00:03:00] person to ask, but, um, it was something around about 1967 or thereabouts, there was this famous, um, Sermon on live radio by I believe it's the Reverend Godfrey or Godfrey Morgan Godfrey Godfrey Wilson Godfrey Wilson That sounds right. Yes, and I don't think he told anybody of his plans, but he's a subtly started preaching on I'm a sexual rights which 1960s would have been a bit of an eye opener to people tuning in for a church sermon. So [00:03:30] Yes, so from about that time, and I'm sure St. Andrews also from about that time have been on the forefront of preaching for queer rights and and for, you know, in making church as an inclusive space, which I think is really important. My own personal viewpoint on it is I mean, I think the church has to take a risk, has to take a lot of responsibility for the, I guess, residual queer phobia in our society because I think a lot of that can [00:04:00] be traced back to to, um, church doctrines. And so, um, it's just great to be part of a church that is Doing its best to address that issue, um, including, you know, within, within our own church, and, but also, yeah, um, taking the, you know, the, um, the advocacy out into the community, um, and also, you know, also, um, I think another role that churches can play is, um, trans people and, and other queer [00:04:30] folk, you know, often, um, are struggling, and, you know, for there to be a, a safe, sort of, a safe place and a, an oasis, you know, that they can come to just, just, just to hang out or, or receive some kind of support. Um, I think that's an important role that, that we can play as well. You mentioned queerphobia and, uh, this year has been horrendous for transphobia, um, around the world, but particularly in Aotearoa. How has that affected you? [00:05:00] Um, well, I suppose in some ways, I like, cause I'm I think I'm about seven or eight years into having come out and transitioning, so I was kind of settled into an almost comfortable routine and then suddenly, um, she whose name shall not be spoken to our country. So I guess Um, and I came out at a time when, when it was just sort of people talking about a trans tipping point. Um, you know, [00:05:30] transgender people had, had sort of started to become a bit more known as, as people within our society. And I'd seen several years, I think, of steady progress. And then I think, I think it's always inevitable that there's some kind of pushback. And, and, but, um, yeah. You know, that, that did affect me in that sense. But what I really welcomed was the fact that I went to the rally in Wellington and wasn't that just spectacular? Like, tens of thousands of Wellingtonians turning out to support trans [00:06:00] people and affirming, um, our place in the society. And, um, even there was somebody from advocating a different viewpoint was there. It still remained relatively peaceful, so I was very glad for that. And I guess also it's good to keep in mind that actually the, uh, the people that have issues, it's a very small minority of people, isn't it? It is a small minority, but, um, I mean, I have to say, yeah, it, um, unfortunately that small minority can, can actually make a [00:06:30] difference. I mean, you sort of like, you know, in my personal experience, I have encountered occasionally people who've Um, you know, had, had an issue with me or made me feel a bit uncomfortable and it's always, you're always wondering like, because of that, when you meet a stranger, where they're coming from, um, if they're not being particularly friendly. So, um, but at least it's a still a small minority and hopefully a, a diminishing minority as the years go by. Alright, thank you all for gathering for our, um, [00:07:00] decorating the church for Trans Awareness Week. We begin with the litany and chorus of Thanksgiving. For the image of God in every person, thanks be to God. For human diversity and its joys and life giving challenges, thanks be to God. For women and their diversity, thanks be to God. For men in their diversity, thanks be to God. For transgender, non binary, and gender fluid people in their [00:07:30] diversity, thanks be to God. For those loved ones who share the lives of gender diverse people, thanks be to God. For professionals who help bring support and strength to gender diverse people. Thanks be to God. For those who give voice and expression to gender diversity, thanks be to God. For those who work for justice and empowerment, thanks be to God. For religious leaders and congregations who are truly affirming, thanks be to God. For continuing revelation and [00:08:00] life giving grace, thanks be to God. The reading from today comes from Genesis chapter 16 verses 10 through 13. The angel of the Lord also said to Hagar, I will so greatly multiply your offspring that they cannot be counted for multitude. And the angel of the Lord said to her, Now you have conceived and shall bear a son, you shall call him Ishmael, for the Lord has given heed to your affliction. He shall be a wild ass of a man with his hand against [00:08:30] everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he shall live at odds with all his kin. So she named the Lord who spoke to her, you or Elroy, the God who sees for. She said, have I really seen God and remained alive after seeing God? I wanted to open the floor for any comments or, um, prayers you'd like to offer on behalf of, um, [00:09:00] yourself or the trans community or the broad, whiter, queer community. Um, to me, this passage speaks To queer liberation, because it's the story of Hagar, that person who wasn't meant to belong. To Ishmael, that person who wasn't meant to belong in the text. And yet, even those people in the story have a place. Even those people still get a voice. And Hagar indeed is the very first person to name God in all of the Hebrew scriptures. The God who sees. And I [00:09:30] think that God continues to see us. Continues to create in us. Um, and to move in us. And all of our diversity and our fluidity, um, as we move in, in a graceful and queerful way. I'll open the floor. So for me, uh, Christianity is about Jesus saying, I have two commandments, both of which are about love. And what does love mean if you exclude [00:10:00] even one of your fellow human beings? So, for me, true Christianity is about inclusivity and It was a tragedy that, um, because of church doctrines in the past that, um, queer people and trans folk were kind of driven underground and persecuted. And so I think it is important for the church to show leadership and, and, um, take responsibility for that as, and I'm very proud to be part of St. Peter's. So I pray that St. Peter's, um, [00:10:30] reaffirms itself in its mission to be an inclusive church. And carry on being a beacon of light in this inner city. Amen. Um, for me, having grandchildren, at least one of whom I think is, um, gender diverse, I feel that everybody has the divine right to be and to express fully who they are and what they can [00:11:00] become. I, I guess I have learned that, um, there's no one pattern of a person that we all, um, that, that God, Love's diversity. So, why shouldn't we? I agree, um, I think that the message of the Bible and the message of Christ is about love. And so I think [00:11:30] loving people for who they are and who they identify to be is the main commandment that we have. And I really enjoy the affirmation of a church like this. Um, St. Peter's has It's been a firming of the queer community since 1967, I think it was, maybe it was 69, with, 67 with um, Godfrey Wilson's um, broadcast sermon. We still [00:12:00] hold. to that path, but the fact that even after all those years, the queer community is not fully integrated and accepted, both into the body of the church and the structures of the church, but also into broader society, reminds us that there is still work to be done, there's still more to be done, and that the opportunity to decorate the church is a way to just proclaim the reality of that, that there is still so much more to be done. [00:12:30] And, uh, this is a great opportunity for St. Peter's to, to reconnect and re engage, um, with that proclamation. Loving Creator, let the rain come and wash away the ancient grudges, the bitter hatreds held and nurtured over generations. Let the rain wash away the memory of the heart and neglect. Then, O God, let the sun come out and fill the sky with beautiful rainbows. Let the warmth of the [00:13:00] sun heal us wherever we are broken. Let it burn away the fog so that each of us sees each other clearly. So that we can embrace each other as more than accents, gender, sexual orientation, or skin color. Let the warmth and brightness of the sun melt our selfishness so that we can share the joy and sorrow of our neighbors. And let the light of the sun be so strong that we will see all people as our neighbors. Papatūānuku, nourished by rain. We ask you to bring [00:13:30] forth flowers to surround us with your beauty and let the monga teach our hearts to reach upward to heaven. Then, dear God, grant us comfort, give us peace, and allow us strength to enable us to stand up, fight for, and be a voice for equality. In Jesus name, Amen. May the kaleidoscopic delight of God fill our souls with joy and give us strength to celebrate and embody Christ's love in the world. In the [00:14:00] blessing of God, the God who sees, the God who gives new names, and the God who continues to create within our midst, bring us to our true and loving home, now and always. Amen. Alright, so uh, now comes the fun part. Um, we're gonna decorate the church. Um, there's some cloth and the, the, the fabric clearance shred brag. Um, with that, uh, we can weave through this front fence here, the side [00:14:30] fence there, or maybe the side fence over here. Um, that's as far as I've gotten in terms of planning. Um, I've also got some lights that I will try to, um, hook up and tie down, um, and then I'll be snaking up into the, um, the bell tower to try to get some lights up there. But, um, thank you all for being here and, um, go with God's blessing. Michael. Uh, kia ora, I'm Jean Malcolm. I'm one of the priests here at St Peter's on the corner of Willis Street in Garsney. Um, and [00:15:00] today we, uh, Decorating our fence to, uh, make it clear that we are supportive of all those who are transgender, um, so that we can proudly wear the colors of blue, pink and white and pink and blue. So how, how are you decorating the church? So, first of all, we've, um, we have a set of, of the rainbow colors that we sometimes. weave in and out of the wrought iron fence in front of the church. Um, and today we are doing the, the trans colours. [00:15:30] Um, and so pieces of fabric that we're weaving so that people going past can see those colours. Why is it important for St Peter's to be doing this? One of the things that we, as part of the DNA of our place, is that we want to be a welcoming place for all. Um, and that includes You know, we have to figure out how to welcome all, including those who aren't very welcoming, um, because everybody is welcome here. Um, so the other thing we have to do is make it a safe place. And [00:16:00] so, this is one of the ways of showing that we want this place to be a safe place for transgender people, where they can find a place to express their spirituality and all, all that they are. The, the church has always had, uh, rainbow flags and, um, information about, for, for rainbow communities. Again, why, why is that important for the church? Um, Sadly, one of the places that has not been safe for rainbow people is churches. Um, and it's one of those things that because so [00:16:30] often, uh, churches were the more conservative way of interpreting the Bible have said that to be a rainbow person is somehow wrong. Rainbow people are generally not happy to be anywhere near a church, but what happens if you're a person who has a Christian faith and you're also a rainbow person? So this is about saying this is a place where both those parts of your identity can be celebrated, yeah.

IRN: 2925
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/mira_woldberg.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004957
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1107368
TITLE: Mira Woldberg
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Mira Woldberg
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2020s; Amsterdam; Christchurch terror attack (2019); Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands; Fiji; Grant Robertson; ILGA World Conference (2019); Indonesia; Intersex Trust Aotearoa New Zealand (ITANZ); Mira Woldberg; Mr Gay Syria (film); Netherlands; New York City; Out and About (film); Pacific; Pride Parade (Wellington); Pride parade; The Hague (Netherlands); Turkey; Tīwhanawhana; United Nations; United States of America; Wellington; Wellington International Pride Parade (WIPP); acceptance; ambassador; boycott; climate change; corporate sponsorship; delft blue kissing couple; diplomat; diversity; diversity and inclusion; dolls; equality; human rights; love; police; religion; sexual identity; solidarity; suicide; sustainability; terrorism; tolerance; visibility
DATE: 26 February 2020
YEAR: 2020
LOCATION: Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, Floor 10, 20 Ballance Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: November 2023
TEXT: [00:00:00] I'm ambassador in New Zealand since, uh, August 2018. Uh, I worked for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in the Netherlands, in fact, already since 1998. Uh, I've been posted in Jakarta and in New York for both for four years, but also in The Hague as well. And, um, when I was, uh, up for, like, uh, change my posting again, Um, I was really looking forward to a, to a, to a country, uh, where you can work, like [00:00:30] do your own initiatives also and, and, and, um, yeah, determine a little bit more your agenda than maybe, uh, uh, it's possible with other, with other countries. And New Zealand, I mean, I had a very positive, uh, work relation with New Zealand diplomats in New York, very close, also in Jakarta, by the way. Very like minded country, we work together on sustainable development, on climate, on human rights. So I really look forward to working in and with New [00:01:00] Zealand. What were your initial impressions? My initial impressions? Now, a very beautiful country, um, it was very, uh, I mean, definitely I arrived in Wellington. Uh, and the view from my office is just stunning, and you see the harbor, you see like the, the mountains in the, in, in the back. Uh, very green, um, yeah, and so much like the sea, the water, I really loved it, yeah. So, since arriving, uh, you and the embassy have been [00:01:30] doing quite a number of Rainbow LGBTI events. Where does that commitment come from, uh, for supporting LGBTI issues? Um, we have, I mean, for, for the Dutch government, human rights is really a kind of, uh, the core of foreign policy and it has not been like a recent, uh, matter, but already since, uh, I think that in, in 78, we said like the cornerstone of the Dutch foreign policy is promotion and protection of human rights.[00:02:00] Um, but of course, priorities changed in these, in the course of these decades. And, um, uh, support for promotion and protection of the human rights of LGBTI plus community is, is really, uh, in this, in this also in this government, very strong priority. So that was of course, one of the reason like also formally why it is so, so important to do like worldwide to try to make an improved the situation, uh, fight [00:02:30] discrimination. Um, but. Um, I think for me also personally, I worked a lot on human rights. I also started in fact, like at Amnesty International, uh, when I, uh, had my law degree. Uh, so this is also very personal topic that I think is extremely important that we highlight and, um, I think, yes, New Zealand has already a very positive situation, so in that respect it's maybe less prominent, I would say, a big issue for New Zealand, but I still think that [00:03:00] for worldwide it is, it needs continuous, uh, attention. I mean the situation is not yet perfect. I mean, having a good law structure, um, a good rule of law does not say that discrimination does not take place or that all people feel respected. Um, and apart from that, I'm also accredited to the Pacific Islands. And in, of course, in, in a number of the islands, um, the rule of law in general is okay, but the law structure around LGBTI [00:03:30] is, is, is far from, uh, from perfect. That is something of a priority for us. Try to work on decriminalization, um, and work around and providing more protection in, uh, for human rights of LGBTI in the Pacific. How do you navigate, um, I guess the different cultural aspects between, say, in New Zealand with LGBTI rainbow rights? And in the Pacific, I mean, because your role, you have to sit in between the two, how, [00:04:00] how do you do that now? I think that for us, for most important, I mean, in New Zealand, you can, of course, openly be very active in this matter. And I'm not. Like, uh, it's not a, not a big issue for people. I mean, maybe they don't agree, but of course we can openly, uh, promoted by events, by having the, the, uh, human rights film screenings, uh, panel discussions, uh, we can support that openly. I think that, that with the Pacific, I think it's up to local, uh, people actually [00:04:30] to try to, to work around in a way that they think serve, uh, their. course best. I think definitely in the specific context where like religion, religion in the Pacific is such a crucial issue. Um, but for everyone and that like, um, and there I, I definitely understand we have, there are also many local groups in, in, in the Pacific as well. And what, what I try to do is actually try to support them to, uh, [00:05:00] plead for, for their cause. And that's, I think. for the Pacific the best way. It is more effective than I, than if I would go there and say like, loco, and let's change it. I mean, it's not a Dutch position. We think it's important that everyone and all people should be not discriminated against, should be free from violence and that all governments need to work on that. But it is important that local, uh, communities, uh, work in a way that they think works best. and is more, most effective. [00:05:30] So do you get, um, any pushback from the Pacific nations in regard to that? Not yet, I would say. No, I don't, no, I think because, I mean, again, I'm not, uh, going there hammering them like, uh, like all, um, I know best, um, uh, but I think it is really up. To the local communities. And I think, yes, the position of the Dutch government is not a big surprise. We are very active, not only like in bilateral [00:06:00] relations, but definitely also in a multilateral fora like in the United Nations. We have, uh, we're part of different groups that really focus on LGBTI rights in the UN and in the international arena. We are a strong supporter of the UN Special Rapporteur on Sochi. So I think that that is. That's sexual orientation and gender identity to, uh, promote also human rights for the, for the group. So this mandate, which we're very, very actively lobbied, [00:06:30] um, uh, for, I think, um, it's not a big surprise. And, and I, I think it's also important to highlight that, for example, Uh, Fiji in the Human Rights Council also supported, uh, the mandate, uh, extension. So I think that in a way, there is already something going on, uh, in the different communities as well. Looking at your, um, events and support, uh, for rainbow LGBTI communities in New Zealand, could you, um, just [00:07:00] take me through some of the events that you've been associated with? What we, uh, did like the first event was like the film screening in December 2018 when we had, uh, Mr. Gay, uh, Syria, which was a movie about, very interesting, about, uh, a refugee in Turkey who'd participated in a, in a, in a kind of, uh, I mean, a competition, but like Mr. Gay, Syria, very, I think, um, not, not too heavy movie, but still highlighted some of the issues and, and especially [00:07:30] in a, in a challenging. Context like in Turkey and in Syria, um, I think we had like an, um, we also had like the support for the Pacific day to discuss human rights issues, uh, in the margins of the big conference, the world conference of the international, uh, lesbian and gay association that took place last year. So we work together also with Tifa Fana and [00:08:00] also with Intersex New Zealand to try to have a day where we brought like several Pacific activists from all different communities to discuss what is important for them. What is like the human rights protection? What do they need? What are, um, actually, um, their wishes? And I think that was very useful to bring people together because this specific conference was really one of the first times that we had so many Pacific activists coming together and learning from like [00:08:30] experiences, not only from like it within the region, but also from outside the region. We had activists obviously coming from Africa, from Latin America. And, um, from, um, a number of states where it is also very difficult, and I think that that is important, that they get strengthened for their own actions and their own, uh, initiatives. Um, so this was an important part. We also organized another human rights film screening on. out and about. Um, and, uh, that was around, [00:09:00] I think, Human Rights Day in last, uh, December 2019. And we participated in a pride parade in Wellington. Yeah. Just getting back to the ILGA World Conference. Now that happened, um, just at the same time as the Christchurch terror attacks happened in New Zealand. And that was one of the, I mean, for me, that was really shocking because it was the largest kind of terror attack in New Zealand we've experienced. Can you remember that day and what it was like for you? Yeah, the terrorist attack, that was [00:09:30] really a very, uh, extremely sad day, and in fact, like, for us as well, this became, this was of course an enormous shock, uh, for Europe, terrorist attacks are maybe, uh, not that unknown, to be honest, but for the Netherlands, it is, to be honest, and the scale was like so, uh, so, so big that it was really, uh, almost, um, Yeah, too big to really, um, understand what was, what was going [00:10:00] on actually in, in Christchurch. We had at that time an event at the residence. And of course, like during the first news, uh, reports, it was not very clear what happened, but then when it became clear, we more or less also stopped the whole event. And of course, like, uh, try to get information about, uh, no, yeah, also whether there are like Dutch involved or other people involved that we knew because as an embassy, we have to be also. So careful in, in, in, in taking care of that. But of course, in, in [00:10:30] contacting New Zealand authorities, um, our King expressed his condolences, the Prime Minister as well. It was just a horrific, uh, day and I think an extremely sad day for New Zealand. It must have been very sobering for the, uh, conference participants as well. I mean, it was so, that, that conference was so diverse and it was talking about human rights and then to have this kind of happening at the same time. Yeah. Thank you. No, that's definitely what I, I noted as well because on the Sunday we had in fact the day about, uh, that was the [00:11:00] Friday was the attack, Sunday was the, the day on the Pacific with the Pacific participants and of course everyone had in his mind like this, uh, yeah, act of like complete intolerance about, um, yeah, about hate, um, um, about not respecting people. That's really at the core of course of the, of, yeah. Of yeah, not feeling part of a community that it was a real big thing for all participants as [00:11:30] well. But I think it was also good to, to, um, to still try to also continue with the conference because this was a unique. Um, moment and it was very important that we had all these people together that we also try to discuss the issues that are, uh, for them a current, uh, day for every day challenge. You mentioned also that last year you had the, um, human rights day, uh, screening and talk in December [00:12:00] and at that talk and at that screening, um, you talked publicly about a friend who had passed away and how their parents hadn't supported their sexuality. What impact did that death have on you? Um, that was a, uh, that had a huge impact on me, actually, because it was an extreme good friend. Uh, and he did, just didn't, just passed away. He committed suicide. And, uh, I think that that was for me really... Underlined the [00:12:30] importance, how important it is that people feel respected, feel safe, and feel, um, just accepted as a human being and that's, yeah, the, the, uh, who you love or, or, or, yeah, who you are, that is really, uh, the most important, um, very important to be public about it and, or not, public or at least public to, to your friends and your family. And I think that that is very important. [00:13:00] Um, yeah, about your own identity that you really feel that you can be free to express who you are. And, and I mean, life is already quite complicated, uh, for lots of different issues, but I think that you cannot even be open about this, which doesn't harm anyone. And it's all about love. It's, I just. don't understand that that, uh, is, is, uh, that people have, like, uh, problems with that actually. Yeah. And, and so is this one of the [00:13:30] reasons for marching in the, uh, pride parades, that visibility to show that actually, you know, you should be able to be who you are? Now, I think that it made me realize that it is not, uh, a given that, uh, people feel that. And like you can, you can also say like, Oh, it's not an issue for me and I'm a friend and blah, blah. Uh, that is something I think may be easy for people around, uh, people who maybe do not feel secure and do not [00:14:00] feel. And I think that the pride parade can actually also not only, uh, express, uh, is an expression by the people who of course are part of the community, but also other people. who, uh, can show solidarity and say like, yeah, we are there. We are with all, uh, we are with you. Yeah. Can you describe for me, um, your first, uh, time marching in a pride parade and what that was like? Um, that was, uh, now, I mean, I've been, of course, in Amsterdam, you have [00:14:30] a huge, uh, pride parade, which is. course, like, uh, like, uh, very big event. Um, so I've been, of course, like as a, as a person who watched it. So that, that is, that is something that I did like many, uh, many years actually. Um, also with this friend, by the way. Uh, but, uh, uh, in Wellington itself, I thought it was very, yeah, it was very nice uplifting. Uh, I. event and, um, [00:15:00] very, very good. Yeah. Very positive. I think it was a very positive atmosphere around it. And it's, uh, I think that, uh, yeah, we all felt pride that we were part of that actually. And the, the two large inflatable kissing dolls. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's what I really liked when we saw it in like, Uh, it was developed, the concept in, in Ottawa, uh, so that was the colleagues in, uh, in the embassy and we thought like this is so good because it really is a very, [00:15:30] um, also again, a very positive, um, expression, but it also, uh, has like this very clear Dutch touch with having the Delft blue color in it and making it so clear like this is something that, uh, it's, it's about love. It is about, Uh, equality and, uh, something that we all should be, uh, sharing and, and actively working towards for, so that's, yeah. Now, there's a, uh, Pride Parade in Wellington coming up very [00:16:00] shortly and there's been a couple of media stories, um, calling for a boycott of the parade because, uh, some people don't think it's about the rainbow communities. It's not by, for, and about the rainbow communities. Has the embassy been approached, and if so, what's your reaction been? No, we have not, we are not approached. Of course, we also, uh, read the news reports, and I think, of course, I mean, as a Dutch embassy, I'm, I'm not the one judging, like... discussion between the Rainbow [00:16:30] community in New Zealand. I can only speak for myself and the experience, uh, also in the Netherlands, where we have a very, uh, big pride parade, which is very inclusive, which like, uh, contains, uh, like corporates, yes, but also lots of communities, also army, police. We have also... both where you have now like the, the migrant community, um, is part of it. Um, and I think it's growing and growing. And I think that do that by that, that also people who [00:17:00] might not normally maybe feel comfortable in, in joining a pride by looking at so much diversity with. in the pride that really brings other people to join. So I'm a strong supporter of a, of a big pride that is inclusive. And I think that within that, um, within that context. And I think again, because what I said also before, I think it's for, I think it could also [00:17:30] contribute if it is about showing solidarity and yes, maybe. Uh, I do not, I'm not part of the LGBTI community as such, but I definitely have, oh yeah, so many friends actually, um, but also I would like others to feel, uh, safe, respected, and, and, and not discriminated against. So I, I, I, I think it's a good way to express that. But I mean, again, how the Wellington... pride parade is organized or I don't even, I mean, that's of [00:18:00] course up to, to the, to, uh, everyone who is involved here in Wellington and where they feel comfortable with. At the, um, LGBTI rainbow events that you've been to in New Zealand, what are the biggest concerns people are coming up to you and talking about? What, what are the issues? Um, now issues about like, uh, uh, for example, when we had the event in, in December 29, uh, yeah, 19, the last day. Uh, which was, of course, much more [00:18:30] focused on children, uh, and parents, and, and how difficult that is, actually, that you come out, that you start a discussion, um, that it is, um, that it takes time for people, uh, to actually, um, raise this issue. And that is, that was definitely shared, uh, after that movie. Uh, experiences, but also the settings of families or sometimes like, uh, yeah, like very conservative, uh, um, family setting or that [00:19:00] maybe the parents are fine, but that they feel maybe also not supported by their family and friends or feel insecure about that. And that has of course also impact on the relation between child and parent again. So I think that that these are, were issues that I think are. common. I mean, that's, that's still something in the Netherlands as well. This is not only New Zealand. This is, I think, worldwide an issue. At that film screening, you screened a documentary called Out and About. Could you tell me a wee bit about that? [00:19:30] Out and About is in fact, um, um, focuses on like this relation between Parents and children and the children. So it's about parents where like the son or daughter is gay or lesbian. Um, and that they live in a society like, uh, for example, Russia and, uh, Indonesia. where it is not so, um, broadly accepted like in New Zealand or the Netherlands, um, and the struggle they face, [00:20:00] but also, um, how they, um, uh, yeah, how they looked like when they came out, when, what they did with the parents, but also like the parents vis a vis their direct community, um, and about, um, yeah, the love of parents for children and that that in the end also, uh, really was something, um, that overtook their concerns. And I think it is, it was also a [00:20:30] very honest movie about like why, why also parents like, of course there are like issues about religion. But also issues about that parents felt like, Oh my gosh, my, now my, my child will have such a difficult life. There will be discrimination that might not be respected. And the concern of a parent to a child was, I think, something that people can definitely identify with in a way. Um, but also see the struggle and see in, in, in the end, also [00:21:00] a bit of a, you know, yeah. A positive story as well. I found it a really confronting documentary but also fascinating having that kind of core of same sex attraction but looked at through a variety of cultural lenses. Yeah. Yeah, so it was very confronting. No, I agree. Very confronting because it's also, because maybe to highlight, it is [00:21:30] also about in the end, You still don't know, like, in what way everyone is really completely understood as a child by their parents, to be honest. And that's, that's of course also at the core, like, are they, they are respected, they are, they are, they are loving their kids. That's, that's so clear. But whether they can completely understand and that's, that's still open, in fact. Yeah. Now, you've lived in a [00:22:00] variety of countries and coming to New Zealand and living and working in New Zealand now. Could you tell me what should we be grateful for living here in New Zealand and what should we be working on? Oh, no, I think you should be grateful for a lot. Um, because I mean, this is, uh, this is a very open country. You have extremely I mean, uh, it's also ranking one of the highest if it is like not corrupt. It's not like freedom of press, [00:22:30] freedom of expression, um, the sense of freedom, but also of, of yeah, the solidarity. I think that in a way also, that's what you could see also after the Christchurch attacks. It was really amazing, uh, the reaction of the, of the New Zealand people. Towards the victims, towards like, uh, uh, the groups that were targeted and, uh, a real sense of solidarity. I think that's very, uh, that's something that you can be really proud of and very happy with.[00:23:00] So I think, um, yeah, what, what should you work on? I mean, that's of course very, very difficult to, for me to say, I mean, I think that you have quite some common challenges that you share actually with the Netherlands, like The Netherlands, we have a challenge in fighting, uh, the addressing climate change, uh, working on a more sustainable, um, uh, society. And I think that these, uh, are definitely issues that we work on. And I think to also, and I think, um, Minister Grant Robertson said this also at the [00:23:30] opening of, if we look back at the topic of this interview, but minister. Grant Robertson said at the start of the conference, it's not only about tolerance. Uh, if you look at like respect for minorities, but also about, um, LGBTI community and like almost, yeah, in fact, like your whole society, it's about embracing diversity and actively. actively embracing it. It's not like just merely tolerate. And that's, I think, a [00:24:00] very crucial, uh, um, message, which I think is very relevant for the Netherlands as well as other Western countries. Just finally, um, 2020 this year is the 75th anniversary of the United Nations. If you had a magic wand, uh, what would your ideal world look like? My ideal world, I think, my ideal world would be indeed, because human rights is so close to my [00:24:30] heart, I think that, that for me the ideal would be that for everyone, indeed, human rights are promoted, are respected, and all countries would live in a very free society, where they feel that, um, that they're not excluded. Discriminated against, that there is no violence committed, no wars. That would be my ideal world.

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TITLE: Welby Ings - Rainbow Studies Now keynote
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VOICES: Rebekah Galbraith; Welby Ings
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1950s; 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; 2020s; AIDS Parachute campaign (1986); American Library Association; Aotearoa New Zealand; Avondale Library; Berlin; COVID-19 (coronavirus); Carrington Polytechnic; Charlotte Museum; China; Drag Storytime; Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT); Gareth Watkins; Germany; HIV / AIDS; Ia (research portal); Jennie Livingston; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Magnus Hirschfeld; Michelle Tea; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; Nazi Germany; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; Oscar Wilde; Paris Is Burning (film); Pukeatua; Punch (film); Rainbow Studies Now: Legacies of Community (2023); Rainbow flag; Rebekah Galbraith; Robert Pouwhare; Russia; Tauranga; Te Awamutu College; United Kingdom; University of Auckland School of Medicine; Welby Ings; Wellington; academia; academic advocacy; academics; activism; anger; aversion therapy; book banning; book burning; books; burning; coming out; concentration camp; dawn raid; death; diversity; drag; exoticization; family; gay; going on safari (hunting gays); hegemonic power; hegemony; heteronormativity; homosexual law reform; identity; invisibility; invisiblising; legacy; lesbian; mistrust; myth; open access; pandemic; pedagogy; pink triangle (symbol); polari; prejudice; pridenz. com; protest; queer research; quilt; refugee; research; school; shearing; spiritual abuse; stereotypes; transgender; university
DATE: 23 November 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington, Kelburn Parade, Kelburn, Wellington
CONTEXT: Professor Welby Ings delivers the keynote address at the symposium Rainbow Studies Now: Legacies of Community. Welby is introduced by Dr. Rebekah Galbraith. Welby's presentation focuses on the recent establishement of Ia, the first multi-disciplinary queer research portal inside a university.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: November 2023
TEXT: [00:00:00] So, kia ora everyone. My name is Rebekah Galbraith and I am the convener of the Rainbow Research Network here at Te Herenga Waka, Victoria University. Um, to all our speakers and guests today, welcome to Rainbow Studies Now, Legacies of Community. Um, to get things started, it gives me great pleasure to introduce Professor Welby Ames to deliver today's keynote, Building the Family Home, Growing Queer Research Inside Our Institutions. Welby is professor in design at Auckland University of Technology. He is a gay man [00:00:30] and a consultant to many international organisations on issues of creativity and learning. In the 1980s he was arrested numerous times. in Aotearoa. During the struggle for homosexual law reform. So, a well worth cause. Welby is also an internationally acclaimed director, author, designer, illustrator and filmmaker. His book, Disobedient Teaching, has become an influential reference in rethinking pedagogy and the culture of [00:01:00] schooling. In 2001, Welby was awarded the Prime Minister's inaugural Supreme Award for Tertiary Teaching Excellence. And in 2014 and 2022, he was awarded university medals for his contributions to research, pedagogy, and creativity. So I'm sure you'll join me in welcoming Welby. I feel very proud to see this. Kia [00:01:30] ora mai tātou. Ngā mihi nui ngā kupi a kupu katoa. In the mana, in the reo, in the mate, in the whānau o takotāpui, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa. Um, that's my mum and dad. And, um, Our manga is the one up in the corner, it's called ua. Um, [00:02:00] and, uh, our, our, our, our, our river was, is kind of the back waters of the Waikato. Um, and, uh, what you probably, what you can't work out from that photo is there's no electricity in that house. So my dad was a shearing contractor and my mom was a flee. So in the king country, and, uh. We had power when there was money. They, the three kids sitting on the, on the swings, were [00:02:30] three eldest and they're all queer. So, God knows what was in the water at Pukkiatua, but something was in the water. On the swing, you see my twin sister. She's passed now. Um, and we, she was a darling of the education system. She learned to read and write before she could go to school. She, um, She, she was always in the top classes. I couldn't read or write until I was 15. And, uh, my next sister, Suzanne, who's sitting on my mum's lap. [00:03:00] You can tell we're farm care people because look at the bare feet. I mean, it's only, it's only taken in New Zealand a photo like that. But, uh, she became a teacher. And, um, and my parents had to make a journey. Because they'd grown up... They didn't know what, well, they did, they had a vague idea that queer was something really dangerous and you ended up in prison because at the time that that photo was taken, we were put into prison. And we were fired from our jobs, and we weren't, you could refuse to serve us in shops, [00:03:30] and um, and it was really hard keeping accommodation if a landlord decided, for theological reasons, that you didn't belong anywhere near the accommodation. So... What I'm going to share with you is, uh, is, uh, is biased because of those things. So, I went to Taomutu College and I got expelled for feeling, I won't say his name because it's going to be recorded, but feeling him up in the back of the German class and got caught. It was [00:04:00] not a good thing. It was not a good thing to be caught in the back of the German class doing that. It's quite hard to disengage your hands from... Anyway, we won't go... But I tell you what, there were some kids in the front row who blanched, you know. And, uh, and the difference between us was this. Within, uh, three months he had got a girl pregnant at school and got married. And I refused to say sorry. I refused to say that it was all a mistake. [00:04:30] So, uh, school became pretty hellish. And, um... In the end, we both told each other to fuck off, and that was the end of the, uh, schooling. You know, many of us, we would like a life where we could just be left alone to get on with our lives. That's probably the deepest thing we want, just to be able to populate the same space and rights as everybody else. But [00:05:00] that's... Not always the same. And the territory doesn't always get better and better and better. So, I, um, Once I left school, I became heavily involved in protest. But part of that was because of anger. And I didn't know how to constructively change things. So I thought if I threw myself at walls and, um, And, and marched and shouted, Oh, it was a good way of dissipating anger. And it did something in the time. [00:05:30] Over time I, I, I started to think more about, when I became an old, like I'm 67 now, so you know, I should have grown up, so, but what I, what I thought was maybe if I use my abilities, my talent, to try and change things, so all of us have something in common here, we've all made some commitment of our intellect to humanity, some way, we've all decided to do that. [00:06:00] And, and that has got, that can be hugely constructive. So, on one level I, I do the academic thing, but the other thing I do is I, I, I believe our stories are very, very important. And that's why I have such respect for all of our systems that archive or gather stories. Not the stories mediated by the press. Not the stories mediated through the filter of the time, but the stories from the raw ground, from our people telling our stories in our ways, that are [00:06:30] recorded. It's hugely, hugely important. It's our major defense against invisibility. And so, um, I, and amongst other things, I make, um, films. So, it's just a teaser.[00:07:00] So we, we live across the spectrum of worlds in this country, including sports. We, we often face, um, I, I believe a compartment a a, a, an easy compartmentalizing, you're going, oh, if you're that, therefore you must be this. And oftentimes our fight back is to go, no, no. We, we possess the ordinary and the extraordinary. We are in all of those worlds. And, um, you know, it's [00:07:30] interesting the, the critic, so I'm gonna sound like a winker for just a minute. Okay. So just bugger it. It's got the New York Times Critics pick. It just got a great review in the Guardian last week. But it did, it did crap in New Zealand. The film did crap in New Zealand. And the most criticism from here was, the world's not like that anymore. And you go... You try being trans in Putaruru and you tell me that it's not like that anymore. You [00:08:00] try to question something on a deeper level and tell me that it's alright. And one of the things I, I always think there's an extension of the concept of hermene that says that at it's most pernicious what happens is the victims begin policing them. We begin doing the policing. So we go, well, it's alright for us, I live in Central City, wherever, and, you know, it's not like that anymore. And then we marginalise our own people, so as the victims, we marginalise our own people. [00:08:30] And that's why this, and things like this, are so important. Because they bring us and all of our diversity together. So... Enough about that, because what I'm really going to talk about is this. Last year we did something at our, at our university, and it's, it's, this is why I'm so respectful of what Victoria has done with this. So important. Because in wherever we [00:09:00] are, as scholars, whether that be public scholars or scholars inside institutions, the responsibility falls on us to strengthen the world. And to push back against invisibility. To make sure that we cannot be mythologized or erased by false stories because we are present with the true stories. And so... We set up, I'm going to base this around five strange ideas, but they were five ideas that [00:09:30] sat behind a design, a project that was done at the university I come from, at AUT University. So it's invisibility. Refugees, families, mistrust and exoticization. Those are the ideas. They're going to be, they may seem a little strangely out of context, but that's what, those are the coat hangers we're going to hang this on. Okay, so the first one is if we have a look at invisibility. You know, one of the major agents for, for prejudice and [00:10:00] human cruelty to exist. is that you make invisible the humanity of the thing you oppose. And so oftentimes we, uh, that agency has to stay in place for it to do it. So every time we, back, every time you step forward and came out in whatever form, you eroded the invisibility. And I was over in Germany a few years ago, and I was standing at the place where this happened. We, a lot of us know this image, [00:10:30] or we might know this footage that played in the cinemas, including in New Zealand in 1933. This was the Nazis burning the books. I can't stand his voice, so let's just ignore him. What we're not told is we all think that that's, um, the communist text. No, that's our library. That was, that was Magnus Hirschfeld's library, [00:11:00] the sexologist. That was the building that the top floor was made for trans people who couldn't find a home anymore while they were trying to get help. Those are the books that are burning on that pile there. History rewrites that piece out of it. We have faced a history of erasure through burning, through destroying our archives, through destroying our libraries, through erasing the diaries when we die, our families have thrown them on bonfires to [00:11:30] make sure that the letters never get into the public domain. This is a long, long, long history. And it's also institutionalized. But here's the thing that we face, I think, as academics. In 2020, the Education Act, well this was the beginning of COVID, so we weren't taking much notice, but the Education Act got updated. And it's, it described universities as having four features. And while the top one, you know, they develop independent thought, there's two I think are really important to us. The fourth one says [00:12:00] that they have to be, in the society, they have to be the repository of knowledge and expertise. They have to be the place where knowledge Can be kept safe. Where knowledge can find its voice, where knowledge can take its form, and where knowledge can be kept safe. But I also argue it also where knowledge can be distributed. And the second thing, and this is something that I'm very proud of in this country, sorry, the fifth, the last provision is that it is our job to function as the critic [00:12:30] and conscience of society. Now that sounds cool, but it's actually very deep. We're very uncomfortable and very deep because sometimes we have to oppose even our institutions to do that. We have to face what is enshrined and secure because it falls to us to do this. So if we're sort of in the smell of the smoke and ashes, we have this history in New [00:13:00] Zealand. 1986 Now it's interesting that people attack our archives of knowledge, and they burn, so burning, you can smell the smoke through generations of our people going back hundreds of years, the association with destroying by burning. So and whether it's last year, you told on me, this goes on, [00:13:30] this goes on and on, I'm not going to take every issue, but I'm going to, let me show you this. There's some interesting stuff about our contemporary, you know, very cool world. In our libraries, our knowledge is under threat, you know. So that when, in 2015, when Michelle Teer in San Francisco brought in the first idea of bringing drag queens into libraries to read stories full of life and, and, and color and, and, and joy and thought. [00:14:00] We saw what happened here. We see what happens in America. In New Zealand, this is the Avondale Library, and in Christchurch, there were pickets. There were people protesting that drag queens were allowed to be into libraries. Look at this. 2021. So the efforts to ban books in the US are actually escalating at the moment. Okay, so it's fourfold since 2021. So this [00:14:30] is organized targeted groups, removing our literature from the available, so where ordinary people can get it. So, the ALA report. Um, these are challenges to, to libraries, to schools and university materials. So the three most banned books in America all belong to our people. The three most banned books. They're not the ones that tell you how to torture someone. [00:15:00] They're not some fetid novel full of hate about somebody because their, their ethnicity is different to you. They're our books about identity. We're not saying before about how in a hegemonic construction sometimes we, we regulate. As the victims, we police. We actually have this, we have smoke on our hands here. [00:15:30] So we used to have a language. Our people had a language. And if you went back to the 1950s, you could have heard it. Today, it's almost lost. So, let me give you an example. Here it is. I'm going to tell you about something that happened in Ponsonby. This was in the 1950s. Um, Aunt Nell Dears, it's all cackle, all chatter. You know that, um, those dolly aunties in tits while they've been nabbed in the latty? Mm hmm. Seems the manky old fish, Ajax apparently, screeched to [00:16:00] Hilda and the demons descended in a noshy raid. Poor dears. Still in the DOS they were. Everyone knows it's Tootsie Trade, but they're going to be going in for half stretch at least. What's that about? Well, it's about two guys who are in a relationship. Two elderly men. Who their neighbor reported on them to the police and in a dawn raid their house was broken into and they were arrested [00:16:30] and they are going to be sent to prison. That was our language. So that didn't get stopped by the Destiny Church. It got stopped by us. Because the culture that, that's a very vicious language, it's a very, it's a language born out of pain and, and injury, and it's angry. And so, if you run down, whereas a few words still [00:17:00] exist to Scarpa, we still know is to run away. Some of us still know the word family, meaning us. This is actually family, but it comes from Thieves Cant, which is where thieves, uh, you talk about. If you're in a, a, a, a group and you go, they're family, it means they're another thief. Don't pinch stuff from them. So, um, but here's this rich strain of our culture that we quietened down because we have got quietened down's, not the right, not a fair word [00:17:30] for it. We, we at our worst regulate our own society in a pursuit of a sanitized idea of diversity that is increasingly small and we have to. As scholars do the opposite. Diversity is a beautiful but hugely challenging problem. It's a problem. It's not a glitter. It's something that bears huge responsibility. If we are the critics and conscience of society, we have to look after the [00:18:00] spectrum of who we are, including those in our world who disagree with us. Because otherwise, we take part in the process of rendering invisible. So, I tried something that we thought might be helpful. Now, 2006, our university decided to digitise Uh, all the theses. Because they were sitting, you know, people did a thesis and it [00:18:30] sat on a back shelf somewhere and they hoped nobody was ever going to read it again and nobody did. You know, um, and uh, and I remember the big fight because the university decided to become open access and it was a lot of academics, you know, were going, well, well, you know, it'll be a drop of academic integrity, you know. And the push on the other side was going, but if taxpayers pay for us to be here and our people struggle to be here, should our knowledge not be available? You [00:19:00] know, my mum and dad, sharing contractors, they're never going to get into a university library, but they, well they don't actually have a computer, but if they did, they should be able to get there. If we're in Ngongotaha and we're 14 years old and doing a project, we should be able to get that. If I'm in a retirement home and I want to know about men who come out after the age of 50, I should be able to get that. That's what being a critic and conscience of society is. So we went to the university and we said, [00:19:30] we would like to have a portal designed that just focuses on the queer research out of our university. First sweep through over a hundred theses we found by our people. I felt very proud. Here, so we worked with Dr. Robert Porfiry to find a name for this. Cause, let me do it this way. I don't [00:20:00] think pride is exotic, I think pride has dignity. An academic pride has dignity, but it's absolutely certain of who it is. So, ear is an amazing thing because it's a pronoun, it's genderless. But what it means is to flow, to move out. And so, we worked with um, we worked with the library and then we worked with Catalyst, who is a designer, to put this portal together. The idea was it had to be really easy for [00:20:30] anyone to use. So, all you do is you type in, uh, uh, whatever you're looking for, um, Adolescents, um, whatever you like. Press, press search and it will bring up any thesis, but now any published article done by a member of staff. By our people, for our people. It just does this. It tries to do this. But, it has, the journey to [00:21:00] it was really interesting because it brought up some stuff. So, one of the things on the site also is that it shows some of the staff. So the, the staff profiles. And so if you click on these people, it tells 'em to tell you what they do. It tells you what the connection is to our communities. You know, these people have supervised these, or these people have written these articles or these people have, uh, work on the pride, um, you know, on, on a trust board, on a, so there's a, a link. It's not just going well, I think I'd like to virtue signal here, so I'll see if [00:21:30] I can get on that site. You have to do something. So people sitting in this room, you can find their theses in this site. So, if you put in something like, hello, if you, if you put in um, law reform, it will bring up every thesis that has got some discussion of law reform in it. It will actually bring up not only that but also supervisors who've supervised stuff like that, [00:22:00] other stuff that will be interesting. So, when you click on it, you can download, it'll give you the abstract, and you can download, but then you'll see similar items that locate similar items in the site. It's not trying to be a big Skype, it's just saying, we all do the necessary things to make the world better in our world. Whether it's Pride NZ gathering oral histories. Whether it's our archive gathering ephemera that [00:22:30] people would have thrown away. That actually tells more than what it appears to be. Whether it's our Charlotte Museum, whether it's, whatever it is, we, we gather things together to build the robustness of an identity. So, because our job is to be a critic and conscience of society, and because it is our job to be a repository of knowledge, we went, let's, make that accessible just like today has happened because people went, this is [00:23:00] our job to be scholars in the world like this. It's our job to do this. And every person who's come here with the backpack full of stuff that no one else can see has made a decision to make a commitment to that. And that's why I feel so proud to be able to stand inside a family like this. But one of the issues it brought up was the concept of refugees, and it's something that a lot of non queer people don't [00:23:30] really realise, especially in the realm of academia. Many people come to this country to study because it's not safe for them to study in their own country. We actually have a long history of our people of being exiles. We exiled from our homelands, we exiled from our small communities, we exiled... Back in the day, lots of us went and worked and lived overseas. But in academia, that's a really big thing. So people come here because it's safer. But [00:24:00] actually, it's not entirely safe. Because once you put research online, and it has a search word in it, and I'll give you a concrete example... One of the candidates I worked with some years ago had done a thesis, he had an unusual name. He was coming through immigration in Russia. They thought his name was odd, they looked it up, and the first word that came underneath it was pedophile, because he'd studied, but Erich von Gloden, the photographer, and homosexuality. Detained for two days. [00:24:30] Let's put that in context. There are 65 countries in the world at the moment. where we remain criminalised. Fourteen of them, if we present in public, in other than the gender that we were born with, or other than what it is, the pressure for us to adopt a binary, we get arrested. Twelve countries kill us. [00:25:00] For most of us, when someone says international conference, they're countries we can't go to. It's not safe for us to go to anymore because they can just click on our name and research and we're suddenly visible. We can't hide in this world anymore. And so we have to look after those who have to hide. Like, many of our universities now, our people are pushed really hard for, to allow people to be protected if they're wanting to do [00:25:30] a piece of research, so that that's not, there are caveats put on it, so that this piece of stuff is not actually available online. You can't get it. Because those people have to return to families. So it's a complex issue, so when, and universities often go, oh well, you go to conferences, you go to conferences, and you go, yeah, in about two thirds of the world I can. But my world is smaller than yours, in terms of safety. And when you go, let's team up with people in this country, and this country, and this country, [00:26:00] I can't go to China. I can't go to Russia. It's not safe. And China and Russia are interesting examples. Of the countries that don't necessarily legislate in an obvious way, but they have policies of no, no approval, no promotion. So my film, you saw the trailer, was banned in both of those countries. If I go up and speak on them, I can't show anything in the film that would give some sense of promotion [00:26:30] or approval. And you go, it's not, it's neither, it's just a life. But that's the way it's framed. So many of you sitting in this room, We face a smaller world that's not as safe. Because of things like this, this is tough. So right now in Russia, Safari is the game. People go on to online dating sites, set up dates, beat the people up, [00:27:00] disfigure them. beat out of them the names of their families and their employers and put it all online. That's the world today. This is not some obscure thing. This is a game. Please don't stop it. And so we had to think about the people who would put into something like here both their courage, support their courage and also [00:27:30] to provide safety. Sure. These people seeking refuge, the exiles and the international conferences are the two key ideas here. But, then we jump to another side of it, which is a lovely side. You know, I was talking before about our lost language, which is called Pali or Pallari, or there's a range of names for it. Um, the word family referred to us, and that's why there was a thing called the family bar in Auckland. It wasn't because you were going to take your nieces and nephews and, [00:28:00] and, and, it wasn't. It was because it was referring to an older word. And inside our language, we had names like an auntie, a sister, a mother, the uncles, the houses. So the houses, if you have a look at Fafsweg, but you go back to Jenny Livingston's, um, Paris is Burning. You see, so we made homes. We made homes for our people. When we had to go into exile. And, so there's this rich, rich language that doesn't mean, those words don't mean the same in a heteronormative [00:28:30] society as what they mean in our world. But this idea of family is how we have hung together through storms. You know, and when, even if I go back to like the early 80s, very early 80s, some of our conferences had just moved out of Gay Liberation Conferences. They were three days long. I'm glad this one's one day, I'll tell you why. The first day, everyone was lovely to each other. Second day, everyone tore each other apart. And the third day, we were all running around with band aids trying to fix up the relationships. [00:29:00] You know, so, we, there wasn't a golden age for our family. We have a problem that we fight with each other and don't show respect for the things that are different that are difficult for us. Kind of a way to understand it, when you've been hurt, when you've been pushed to the side, of course you fight for things, but we also have to co exist. So, you know, [00:29:30] this is something I printed as a t shirt and gave to somebody who wasn't a friend. Who was saying everything's alright and I said I want you to come down to Tikawiti with me and we'll go, we'll do some shopping on the main street. The shirt was never worn. Another thing when we were setting this up that happened because of Gareth. We're trying to work out, [00:30:00] if we do things like what's happening today, and we do things like EAR, and we do things like Pride NZ, we do these things, how do we form a stronger network at our country? And I thought, oh, maybe you have, sorry, boring old academic, um, MOUs. And Gareth said something that was, that hit me really hard, because I recognised it as the truth straight away. [00:30:30] Many of our repositories of knowledge grew up on the street because they weren't safe to grow up in institutions. So if you have a look at many of the things we have, that's where they've come from. They haven't been inside churches, museums, libraries, universities. They've been inside, paid for by our salaries, in manky flats, putting things together out of necessity. And so if we're going to join some kind of [00:31:00] support, perhaps rather than buying into one big global thing, we have an affiliation. We work with and respect the mana of each of those things, and we look after each other. We allow this country to have its diversity of needs and histories. The whakapapa of all these things is not taken away as it's subsumed into one, but becomes a network. of goodwill, and scholarship, and care. But that we [00:31:30] think about how we can step further forward into looking out for each other. Things like, if there's some funding comes in, if there's a possibility of doing a joint project where someone gets some money to digitise some stuff, if there's some, a speaker's coming to the country for one thing, we let other people know. We look, if there's a collection, something's just been found in a museum somewhere, we get the word out across. across our people, so that we have a richer, more networked substrate from which to [00:32:00] work. And one of the things, I can understand this, is that, I think it's a quality of our family, is that because of injury, we have quite high levels of mistrust. We're a bit cautious about trusting things. So, you know, if you ever look back in the day, if you were arrested, Um, They were basically given, this is if you [00:32:30] were trans, if you were a gay man, if you were a lesbian woman and you fell foul of the, you were given two choices. You were either arrested and sent to prison or you could go and get treatment medically. The treatment looked like this. So, I was talking to a friend of mine a few days ago who's still got, this is her. He's still got the burn marks under his genitals from where the wires were put [00:33:00] there from the electric shocks when he was put into hospital in the early 60s. We have never received a public apology from the medical fraternity for using us as experimental animals. We have never received an apology. Medicine has a long history of abuse. And so, many of our older people. And people who live through that are very cautious about [00:33:30] organizations that suddenly open their arms, whether that's a church or whether it's a medical fraternity, goes, come on in. We welcome you. We welcome you. Here's a rainbow flag on our door. We go, yeah, nah. So so many of our people have suffered spiritual abuse. Often in quite profound ways and are on quests to find [00:34:00] meaning, the correlation between the spiritual dimension of themselves and the physical dimension and the mental, all the dimensions of the self. We don't even use this word, but it's the only way I can think to describe it. We know, we know whether it's documented like this. This is the men of the pink triangle in the concentration camps. There's very few images of this [00:34:30] survive. We've taken out of universities. Like, when they, when they, Humboldt University, when those fires went, a lot of people don't realise that over a third of the doctorates were revoked. Our people fled into exile. Those who could. Others ended up here. And this not trusting, let me give you, you know, I was watching the COVID thing just recently and, um, you know, and I kept thinking, [00:35:00] shit, this is country, this is country that I love very deeply, not learn. Suddenly that we had vulnerable communities in our nation who were saying, let us manage this. Let us talk with our people. And we were going, we weren't. An organization was going, well, we'll work out how to do it. We'll work out how to do it. And you go, it's not reaching our people. Well, go back to the 1980s when AIDS was [00:35:30] ravaging our people. We had a similar problem. The health department managed our budget and they spent their money on this campaign. Would you jump out of a, out of a airplane without a parachute? And our people went, what the fuck? Sorry, but we did. And so we went to them and said, give us the money, because we know how to talk to our people. Let us, let us be, this is the AIDS Foundation. We said, if [00:36:00] you're going to work with us, don't, don't tell us, consult with us and then go and do it. Give us the resources to do this ourselves, because we can do it. Look, in desperation, I was carrying jumbo pens around and writing no come up the bum in public toilets, you know, because people were dying. Because our people were dying and it was tearing families apart and we were getting a fucking ad on jumping out of an aeroplane. And then on the opposite side of [00:36:30] it, in the, in Australia, so we were managing the escalating queer bashing at this stage. In Australia, they decided to do it, so this, this did play here, but in documentaries. They decided to, how they were going to deal with it was just terrify the living daylights out of everyone. What the hell? In Oxford Street we had t shirts going, don't do tin pin bowling. And, [00:37:00] we were dying. Because we were not changing our behaviour. Because the campaign... It's not given to us to talk to our people and slowly, slowly, too late for many of our lives, too late for my partner, too, too late for many people's friends, colleagues, sons, daughters, too late.[00:37:30] These are not bad policy decisions. This is the agency of death. That occurs when you don't let people who know how to communicate with themselves do it. So, you know, so what did we do? We went quilting, and don't, don't knock it, because it was actually very powerful. Yeah, I know, I'm sorry, I know this hurts.[00:38:00] I know this hurts. Our partners... And our friends died, and we sewed quilts that are the size of a burial plot. With their name, so they could not be invisible. In America, it was the only way they managed to make the government finally acknowledge that there was an age pandemic. The only way they could do it. We laid out, we laid out our people. And people walked round and round and round and went, [00:38:30] this is here. The quilt I made for my mate Ian. Um, he died near the beginning. It's hard because it's at, it's in Te Papa now. But there was a time when schools wouldn't let us bring them in. To talk. You know. And, um, and then we had to, because we were having to do it, we had no protection, so our hearts had to be right out there, in the open, [00:39:00] because it was the only way that we could help people see what was really happening. These were the ordinary, beautiful people of our nation. It was the only way. And I think that's why many of our people have empathy for other people in our nation. Who have to struggle so hard. To get a voice that in a fair world would be a fair representation and an important thing. [00:39:30] So, you know, universities have also got smoke on their hands with this. So when Wren, you know, in 2010, a very interesting article looking at the history of how universities have excluded us. How they've done it is they've just advised us away from doing the research. Going, yeah, yeah, you really want a thesis? I'm not so sure. So this is changing. This is changing because of you. It's changing because of us. Because we go in and we don't allow that to [00:40:00] happen. But it did for years. You couldn't get funding for the stuff. I saw some heads nodding, going, yeah, it's still really hard to get funding for the stuff. So when, and when we were trying to have our conferences in Auckland. I remember the first two, the only two places we could get a conference though was the Auckland Medical School gave us a little, access to a little room, and Carrington Polytech. The thing with Carrington Polytech was it was five buildings over where they'd done the electric shock treatments on our people. [00:40:30] So The geography, the historical geography of our country is very distinctive. That's why I love it when I hear things like the archives, uh, or taking people on walks through the city, going, there is another geography here. There is a cultural geography that has been erased, either purposely or through neglect. And the last one I want to touch on is exoticization. Um, I always thought this was very [00:41:00] interesting. It's distinctive about it. I'm not going to read it out. It's nothing worse than someone reading slower than what you read. Have a read of it. So, this is quite a distinctive thing for us. We often grew up in families where we were ontologically different from our parents. And sometimes we had amazing families that, that went, that folded in around us and gave us extraordinary [00:41:30] But we also have friends who didn't. And some of us didn't have those things. So it's a very, so from the time that we become aware of our difference, we can't guarantee that we have parents who understand that difference. Because ontologically they're not the same. And, I was, oh, I just love this graphic. So one of the things which, you know, there are many stories that circulate that we're trying to run into [00:42:00] toilets to steal people or get ourselves arrested so we can go into prisons to, to rape people or that we, uh, we prey on children. Whatever the stories, they cycle over and over and over and over again through every generation. The same faces with a new person behind them saying the same stuff. Relying on there not being robust, rigorous, informed debate coming back. That has space in the world to be heard. And I saw this graphic, this um, this was a few years ago when it was, you [00:42:30] know, anxiety about the, the, the naughty lesbians were taking over parliament. And the gay men were forming enclaves and were, were, you know, trying to corrupt the world and sway people. And I saw this graphic and I just thought it was so beautiful. Yeah, like if it was a banner, we'd just go fuck off and leave us alone, really, really? So, so one of the agencies that we, we are up [00:43:00] against is that we get accommodated as the exoticised other, not as just our ordinary selves, we're all about complexity, we get narrowed down into something exotic, so. We live with myths like, if you're a gay man, you're promiscuous. And you have a thing called a lifestyle. Fuck, I don't know what that is. A lot of religious groups know what it is, but I have no idea what it is. That somehow, we have this thing called, we have a whole lot of wealthy, white, old gay [00:43:30] men who have got a whole lot of money that they don't know what to do with, and they're going to resource everybody. Look at statistics, look at the latest statistics. We're not, that's not true. That's a little myth that even takes root in our own society. People are managing mental health issues, they're managing medications, they're managing, um, um, huge family responsibilities. So many of us become the kind of, like, parent of the next [00:44:00] generation in our families. They may not be our biological, our children by, if you like, direct issue, but they are when the shit hits the fan. They all show up on the back step. And we become... The adored uncle, the adored aunt, the adored safe place somewhere in the wider extended family where there will be an ear and a compassionate heart. We are hugely responsible in families. We often are caring for the elders in our [00:44:30] families. That we are, we are about fluff and glitter. Well, I don't mind about fluff and glitter, that's fine. But there's a Christmas tree underneath it. And that's the bigger part. And that's the bit that claims dignity, and claims something other than the performance of the self, and claims the lived self. The self. You. [00:45:00] That lesbians are aggressive and hate men. That gay men are all urbane, witty, and style junkies. And unfortunately, the media, and that we're all beautiful in this kind of heteronormative idea of what beauty is, and we're all anxious about our beauty, so we spend a lot of time at gyms or on diets or whatever. You know, if I could put a mirror up here, what I see is a room of beautifully ordinary and extraordinary people. [00:45:30] Not an exoticized myth. You know, as part, so little pieces of our culture are taken and hyper exoticised for the consumption of heterosexual communities. The drag queens, I remember in the 1960s in the pubs in England, it was, men and women were, family, you know, husbands and wives, workmates, would all show up and clap, and then preserve the law that sent them to prison, to those people, after the drag show. Beat them up on the streets after the [00:46:00] show. So long as they stayed inside the exotic. They were in a little box and they were allowed to perform but only inside that box. And when we claimed more than that box, the kaka hit the fan. So, um, Okay, I'm going to stop before five minutes. So, uh, so, uh, this is a project we're working on at the moment. This is, uh, just, uh, one of the things that we face in our, among many things is we realize that we have a generation of our [00:46:30] people who are, are dying now, who have lived through stuff. And we don't have all their records. And none of us can do this. I think any one of us. We just make one small contribution to a greater whole. None of us is a divine being who can do the whole thing. But we act on our responsibility to do that. So, um, I'm just going to play a couple of seconds of it, so. Oh, shit.[00:47:00] So what I tried to do was talk about a few ideas that, I would argue that invisibility is the agency that's used to keep us, it's a primary agency of oppression. That we have to look after our refugees, the people who seek sanctuary with us, and be able to extend our worldview so we understand what it is to stand in their shoes, but also to understand that as academics the world, the geography of the world is not the same. It's not the same. That we come from families, and perhaps we have a [00:47:30] deep responsibility to our families, but they are genuinely diverse, and they are made more beautiful for the fact that values within them aren't fixed, they're constantly in a state of movement. That keeps us thinking. That we have a history of damage that causes us to mistrust things, and that we sometimes have to be aware of the fact that it is easy to opt for the exoticized state [00:48:00] and harder to argue for the state that everybody else has. So I'm going to finish with this. You know, during COVID, I, I didn't get enough books out of the library and I was left having to reread books in my library. And while I fell in love with a couple of authors again. I fell out of love with Oscar Wilde. And I know that's such a bad thing for a gay guy to say. And I thought he was a bit of a pretentious git on the second reading through. But he did say, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I know you're not allowed to say that, but, [00:48:30] damn. But I will, he did say one thing that I thought, one of the things he said, I thought was really beautiful. And I think he talked about you. You. Us. He said, A dreamer. There's someone who can only find their way by moonlight. But their punishment? They see the dawn before the rest of the world. That's a fine thing. It's a difficult thing, [00:49:00] but a very fine thing. For all that I can't see and that we can't see, thank you for what you're doing. Thank you for what you've done, and thank you for what you'll shape into the future. And thank you for listening. Thank you.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1107363
TITLE: Kevin
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VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 10 o'clock closing; 1960s; 1970s; 2000s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Avalon Television Studios; BBC; Bas Tubert; Bethany Home (Wellington); Betty Goodbox award (Dorian Society); Bill Sutch; Bistro bar; Blue Note Bar; Body Positive; Brian Tamaki; Britannia Hotel; Buzz O'Bumble; COVID-19 (coronavirus); COVID-19 lockdown; COVID-19 vaccination; Candlelight Memorials; Carmen Rupe; Carmen's Curio Shop (second location); Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Cees Kooge; Chrissy Witoko; Close Up (television); Club Ivy; Club bar (Royal Oak Hotel); Colin Moyle; Daniel Fielding; David Halls; David Hindley; Des Smith; Dixon Street; Dorian Society; Dorian Society (former site); Duke of Edinburgh Hotel; Enough is Enough (2004, Destiny Church rally); Eve van Grafhorst; Evergreen Coffee House; Frank Lund (a. k. a. Toni Roget); Fringe Festival (Wellington); Georgina Beyer; HIV / AIDS; Hotel St George; Hudson and Halls (television); Hutt Valley Memorial Technical College; Invercargill; Island Bay; James Shaw; Jevan Goulter; John Jolliff; John Key; Jonathan Dennis; Kirkcaldie and Stains; Lee Sutton; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Lew Pryme; Lindsay Yeo; Logan Brown; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Manners Street; Marion Street; Member of Parliament; NFU (National Film Unit); NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; Norman Jones; On the Corner (play, 2007); Outward Bound; Peter Hudson; Peter Sinclair; Radio Windy; Rainbow Wellington; Raumati; Robert Jones; Roger Swanson; Ron Irvine; Royal Vauxhall Tavern (London); Salvation Army; San Francisco Bath House; TVNZ (Television New Zealand); Tavern bar (Royal Oak Hotel); Taylors Mistake (Christchurch); Telethon (1976); Television New Zealand Archive; The Balcony / Le Balcon; The Carlton Hotel (Willis Street); The Green Parrot Cafe (Wellington); The Purple Onion; Toledo bar (Royal Oak Hotel); Toni Roget (aka Frank Lund); Trevor Morley; United Kingdom; Victoria Street; Waipukurau; Wellington; Wellington Public Library toilet; Winston Peters; acceptance; anti-COVID 19 vaccination protest; bisexual; blood donation; camp; children; civil unions; classical gay; closet; cottaging; cricket; faggot; gay; gay liberation movement; glam; good meat; homo; homosexual; homosexual law reform; how's your father; hypocrisy; marriage; marriage equality; mask; ostracisation; parties; pasties; played straight; police; poof; poofter; public bar; public toilet; rugby; sailor; saunas; sex education; sex work; skiing; sport; striptease; television; toll call; tranny; twink; window dresser
DATE: 10 November 2021
YEAR: 2021
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Kevin talks about growing up in the 1960s, friendship with Carmen Rupe and the LGBTI rainbow scene in Wellington in the 1970s and later.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: It was very hard in the early days to understand about sex because we did not get sex education. So when things happened, it started to happen. You sort of talk amongst the boys, and a couple of times you look see who's got the biggest and what the difference is and things like that. But I never thought of it in a, um 66 sex of all sexing way. Um, I just thought it was one of those things that happened in disguise, [00:00:30] but by default, um, I spent a lot of time with boys, um, in those days, but we played sport together and that, but at the same time, we were pre in schools and there were girls there. It was a mixed mixed school. So often the girls would boys would partner for dancers and things like that and shows. But it never really struck to me as being, um, a homosexual thing. So So what kind of year are we talking? We're we're talking, um, early sixties and and in terms of school. [00:01:00] What school? Yeah, it was a polite, not polite, a memorial technical college, but it was no longer technical. Longer term I, um, came out. I was quite comfortable with girls, and I was also quite comfortable with boys. And I had just an open what I call a 19 sixties sort of approach to everything. Um, even to the thing of trying a few things out. Like like the old marijuana, which we all seem to have done. Um, [00:01:30] but it didn't go with me. Um, things like that. I was playing good at cricket and rugby. I found that, uh, trying to smoke anything, uh, was not good for my health. I'd be playing sport. I'd get batting at cricket. I'll be up to 10. 20 ones, and I'd be running out of steam, so I had to have a big change in there. I went to Outward Bound school, was sponsored by the company. We after our bound was over, it really, really made me wake [00:02:00] up to myself that there was leadership. I had leadership skills. Um, I won't go into Why do, But basically, that's what it was about to give you confidence. And, um, I came back on the and the guy coming back was from and I was 21 and he was 19 and we got to know each other. We got drunk on the boat going back, but he potted off and coincidentally, came back to work in Wellington at cod in, um, Victoria [00:02:30] Street, the television place where I worked was down what is now at the, um, public library. Um, six months on from that there was a reunion of people to do what that would be mainly to bring the old boys to get and fundraise and that sort of thing for the not so fortunate people to get to get there. And we ended up getting a bit a bit drunk and went back to his house. And he had an argument with the person he was, um, [00:03:00] doing, um, living there. And, um, he was asked to leave. Nothing to do with me being there, but it was obviously some argument. So we piled all his stuff into my car, and I couldn't go home at that stage because I had a few. So we drove to Island Bay and slept on the beach at that time. That was my first real relationship. We went flatting and we had a flat in, um, Overton with one of my, my, um, [00:03:30] colleagues for for the TV. And he happened to be gay. So he introduced us to more or less the scene in those days. And that was about 1970 71 72. Um, yeah, I got there, and then we end up with jobs in the, uh I want to go overseas. At some stage, I look for part time work and, um, end up with a job at the part time at Saint George, um, to somebody in the ski club who owned a ST George. And [00:04:00] he introduced us to, uh, the guy at the, um, Britannia just down the road. And my mate worked in the front bar, and that was a top class pick up girl thing which opened my eyes to a few things I thought, What are these ladies doing there? And then we were asked to go to the, uh, Royal Oak because we were honest. We what was in the tool at the end of the night should be there. There was no giving away drinks. I mean, we had no means to because I thought we would lose our jobs, and we were quite shall I say [00:04:30] good meat. And, um So what happened was there. We worked in the, um, tavern bar, which was a bar in the Royal, which was gay. And in those days, there were two entrances. One went went from Dixon Street and the other came from Manor Street. Now on the were like they had bars on the ground floor. The one was called the Where All the trains and that went and they picked up the Japanese sailors. And that was [00:05:00] all gone. The other one was a public bar, which is on street. And there was a big hallway that ran from Minna Street to Dickson Street. And what would happen is there not many guys in the gay team would come in the Dixon Street entrance. That'd come as they're going in a public bar, walk right through and come to the door in the tab in the bar. Well, the two of us work together and And what happened there? You take the shirt off, you get paid, paid, um, [00:05:30] 50 cents or something. I can't remember what it was, but we were We were played the game quite well. The bar shut at 10 o'clock and, um, by 10 15, everyone had to leave, and then we had to clean up. By 10. 30 we got introduced to the doyen club. That way people took us to the But it was an interesting thing. People that turned up there surprised me. I I'm in my early twenties. Um, the things I know today, [00:06:00] 50 years on is, um, quite a lot, obviously. But the experience there was quite comforting. You felt you felt safe. Um, but what happened with a really funny story was we were all taking along. We used to at the bottom of the stairs, we used to sell tickets for the booze, and then you go up the stairs and there's a big thing there, and there's a DJ there for radio. When you playing the music, It was really, really good. A guy called and it would be great. Really good. And all ages, um, [00:06:30] I was such a good boy that at the end of the year, they have awards awards for things, and I got award for Betty. Good box. Um, yes, it was quite quite a lot, I must say, But, um, what then happened was, um We were trucking along 11 time and we had been having a little bit of trouble with money and they asked me to be treasurer. So I became treasurer for six months because I looked pretty straight up on the It was obvious that, um, things things weren't totally [00:07:00] right there. But we turned it around and we had a little office at the top of the stairs and a little safe in there. But it was all cash in those days. So what? Everyone had a key. So one night we were there. Somebody came up and right behind him a policeman and I shat my pants because I was up the top of the stairs and also busy putting some money in the safe. So I shut the door quickly, and I stand with our top doors, and two of the cops went down and the music went down and they they they went round and see who was [00:07:30] there, and I thought, Shit, we've been murdered. But it wasn't. It wasn't really what we thought. And I started chatting to this guy there. The first one and I you know what's going on and all that thing and he said, Oh, it's all all good He said, We'll look at this look and see from hip and what then happened was, um they didn't do anything. They left quite brightly and turned out longer term. They were looking for a gay guy who had been on a cruise ship to Fiji and that who [00:08:00] had actually burgled or robbed people on the boat who was a gay guy. So they did find him. But that's another story. Um, but next day I'm playing rugby at at Park and for some reason, about three minutes into the game, somebody got seriously hurt. So the whole game stopped in those days. I was on the wing and my boy, So I'm on the wing and I was just standing there with the ball because she used to throw [00:08:30] the ball and I was looking at all the forwards and the other couple of guys come over and just chatting. And anyway, I looked around and I said, That place looks for me. I said, Oh, what time did you finish your shift? And the guy looked at me and he said, No, no, Well, anyway, it turns out they had some policemen in their team and some, um, other sort of that sort of thing in there. So, um, we had a good beer afterwards, and everyone coming. I play with a without people [00:09:00] giving away What? What? What it was about. But, uh, yeah, I found it interesting. And what they said to me, they weren't out after the gay people because, you know, we weren't in the toilets. We knew we were in a place and we were keeping through our group. And that's basically I found out later on one of the many years later when it calm as we discussed it and he said Yes, Well, it was good to have people. We knew that they weren't doing badly, but, um, [00:09:30] still in those days, from a personal point of view, I was mixing with the guys, but I was in a mixed flat as well. And eventually, um, the part my life took off from there. I went overseas, um, but came back and met with people. But things have changed. I went to London and I saw I went to the Vauxhall Tavern. I saw Lee Sutton and the real class drag act. Um, miss not what you [00:10:00] see in New Zealand, Carmen was about the only thing I'm not not knocking the ones down there that the ones that were real class were, um I did. I didn't concede him I. I mean, I come, but Carmen, I put Carmen on Tele in 1970 76. I was working for TV two and we were not hardly any staff in Wellington on TV two. So, by by default, we end up working on Tele, and I conned Carmen and to ask her to come and to, um go on because no one knew what it was. [00:10:30] So Carmen came to the Tele Tom, and the deal was that she would go on the panel. I do go on the panel and then go and answer the phones. And three in the morning has heard some of the girls could come down and do a dance, but they had to have patsies on and that, but no, not on their on their boobs, you know, Um but no, no strip, no naked stripping because we're on TV. So that was OK. Didn't go very well with Auckland. We're gonna have strip tea. But I think in the end they took them nationwide. But because they had nothing [00:11:00] on on Auckland at that time of night. Well, anyway, Carmen turned up early. She was meant to come about 1 a. m. and she turned up about 11, 11, 30 because no one was in the club. They were all watching TV and we were at at the show building up in to street. Um, they a few people come in. Well, Carmen came in and Baz Tuber was on the famous Baz Tuber was on the panel and he was a radio man. He saw Carmen on the far side. And he, [00:11:30] um, said, Oh, there's Carmen and got up and walked off to Carmen, which we only had four cameras. It couldn't exactly turn around came. So next one in the in the control room, they more or less. You got what was going on. So he brought her over and down. No mic, nothing. Um, beside him. And they got going. Well, anyway, the phone started going berserk, wanting to talk to Cameron. So we pronk her over there, and she did. She raised a lot of money. [00:12:00] I mean, it was a novelty thing, I think I don't know. But anyway, the girls turned up early, too, and they sat there, and they had their long coats on and all. And we had the music. It all organised. It was pretty cool because some people turned up to do something and we didn't have a band there to go behind them, so we had to bring their own music. Um, but anyway, we were going along quite happily, and Auckland called for any help with anything. So they ended up putting us, you know, ladies on, they did a very good thing, but they died at another [00:12:30] one at 44. 30 AM. And that become a bit embarrassing because bozo ble was was was, um, supposed to, um, become on at six at 6 a. m. with you see, all we had this school kids arriving, Carmen girls going around in buckets. One has lost one of her, one of her. And, um, I turned around to one of the guys working here, and I said, Oh, shit. And he said I got to learn some time. [00:13:00] So we did have a good time. But those were the days where um, it to me. I found an acceptance of people not looking strangely at people. Um, you know, there was a there were homophobia, because at that stage, the, um, 1986 thing hadn't come through. No change hadn't happened, but it was from a under underlying point of view. I was always worried that I might lose my job, but turning that around, um, in the [00:13:30] people that came to New Zealand in the sixties to help New Zealand television were from from British stage and theatre, and they'd done some television experience. Most of them were gay. And, um, you work with them and they didn't write it down, but they were quite exciting. Some of the the guys we had who really want to call them. I think I call them twinks these days. But we didn't realise that you just saw yourself as yourself. Um, but no, the the things moved [00:14:00] on. But the good thing about it was that television got rid of the glass ceiling for women because it lifted them up totally, um, into because you had that woman's programmes and you end up with, um and people like the hall was on you and the halls. Um, Peter Sinclair, Um, put a lot of people come out of the closet in that respect, but we didn't really They didn't really get beaten up or anything. But at the same time, I've always always [00:14:30] worried myself that I'm gonna get scrunched in the bottom of a ruck somewhere. You know, um, but I people were quite surprised. You know, in some respects, I may even have that leaning because it just looks just played straight. But that's me. I just with me. But life went on. Um, those are the early days. But once I did go to some parties where we had, uh there was a group of guys, um, case and John and well [00:15:00] known group in Wellington we got invited up to They'd hired a house after Airbnb type thing now, but in those days, a house up there for about two weeks at Christmas, everybody piled up to you. What was cases name? Coo coo. And he was working in a I didn't print it down. And, um, where the BNZ was in Ireland. Um, Courtney Place used to work the, uh, company name, but I of course I knew him and I was in the ski club committee. I used to use [00:15:30] our So those are those are sorts of lias that happen. You, you you help each other, but, um, yeah, we get up to you, and, um, it was I would have been, um, before I went overseas, So we went to 72. Um, we we got invited up to my flatmate, and I and, um, we went but up there before we went, we got a phone call, and I mean, no. Um, what do you call it? Um, cell phones. But we got a toll call from would be paid a charge, [00:16:00] and that was that was quite fun. What they wanted was another case of gin, and they'd only been up there for about three or four days. So, um, the supplies were running a bit low. Um, so we went and got some gin, and we put it on your account, but so we arrived up there, and there was a guy from, um, put with us who work in who was a and him. And I got on quite well, so it was a good time. But that was up there and what they'd done in the place didn't have curtains in some parts and in the in the, um, [00:16:30] bedrooms at them. So they put newspaper up, so, you know, and we went midnight swimming rather than midday swimming, but, uh, people had a pensions for losing their togs or couldn't find them, but it was quite fun. I think we would have been had been daylight have been quite fun, but, um, no, it was it was things like that. You did have close groups who become friends and could trust each other. That was my thing. The trust was the thing there. But I was quite surprised. Over [00:17:00] time, as I got more and more into the circle where the people were, they were quite genuine. Do do. One or two people won't say idiots, but but I was screaming, screaming a bit, you know, but, um, or loud when they shouldn't have been loud. But But, um, look, going on from that, um, I. I did get married. And had we I decided that came and I had a good discussion about things, and the person I know got married [00:17:30] to also knew Cameron. Um But she said the greatest gift for you can have is have Children. And I asked her, and I did an interview many years later, um, with with her and ask her, You know, she enjoyed her life as it was, but, um yeah, but II I would agree with her, You know, it gives you meaning to your life. So I wasn't totally gay, you know, on the far left of the radar. And nor was I far right on it. Um, I was [00:18:00] sort of middle, but some people didn't like that. You know, you can't You can't sleep with a guy and you can't sleep with a girl. Well, that's your problem, not mine. But I just see people as the people. And what do you call it? Love or what? I don't know, but to a time when I will help people. Because in my days, in the early days people help me. Would it be at work or whatever? And as I got older, I saw the younger one struggling. I went on to Rainbow Wellington [00:18:30] for 10 years on the committee, and we did a lot of things. Um we did the civil Union we did the marriage thing. And the later ones we dealt with blood. Things we did with, um HIV, Um, in in that respect, um, HIV There were quite a few broadcasting people who died from it, and they were close to me. I had worked with them side by side editing film or helping them research something. And one [00:19:00] of the saddest things I saw was a really talented guy. One day I hadn't seen him for a while at a and I heard him say, Oh, hi, Phil. Good to see you. I turned around and it was like walking death coming at me completely. Grayer ski eyes. You know, I It was tragic. Um, I didn't know what to say. And all people, people, nobody told me. And all people, um, just said, Oh, he's got cancer. And that was the way he was a lovely guy. But it turned [00:19:30] out another one passed away. I used to be an a who who was the head of department. He passed away. So their names are in the, um we We record it everywhere. Um and they have a memorial each year in Wellington. So I'll go to that. But also I met, um, Daniel Fielding. He was working at the bar as I was working, and he took me to the sauna and that my introduction to saunas, What was the bar that you were working at? The Blue Note Blue Note [00:20:00] in Corner. And Vivian, which was the red light district. Um, I made a, um, show in 2007 called on the corner for the Fringe Festival. Um, what that was about was a was a written in six weeks because we we as a fringe as a bar had, um, been a Bruno. We changed over the called the fringe, Um, because we're trying to get a wider sort of thing. It was an all night bar. It was the last. [00:20:30] We were all known to the gay community. But you had anything in there, even even a, um a lady who had a very good way of throwing cheers across the room right across. I mean, she would have won the shot put at the Olympics, but, um, when she lost it, or someone called her something that that was it. These days, she's a model of society and you gone quite a high way. But, um but basically, I drew a line in the sand on 1986 and I said, Let's create the district as it was [00:21:00] in street going backwards, Um, went to the prostitutes collective and got all the newsletters, and I learned that prostitutes do not sell sex. They sell time. That was going and I was I wrote A and I used a lot of my tenants stay upstairs in the play. So eventually we had, uh, 20 people in the plane we had, um what's the name? We used the karaoke [00:21:30] music. Nobody didn't have to pay music rights because we already had our own. And they would sing because I, I am one that haven't seen London with the live means that they can actually sing. So they all the ones that they sung the people we had, except for where we had to do fast costume changes on stage. We we prerecorded and they mind. But you didn't notice because people were moving quickly. Um, but anyway, to play, we, we we we booked great days because nobody had booked [00:22:00] the first week of sort of shows the French for three weeks. So two weeks the last two weeks had it. So on we went and I had. The youngest cast member was 19, and the oldest was about 72. And before John Joli was the narrator, he he later on, he had been involved with civil union and his, uh, partner. He was in the thing, and we had half time and what we did before then and we we did the cheese cheese song. And, [00:22:30] um, it was just We are the boys from over the hill. We really know our sex. There's nothing here than to use the and And then they started throwing condoms into the audience and said, Go for it because it half time. So So it was a one real fun show. Um, but we had people in there, and I had one got permission from Carmen to do a skit. It was a skit of different things during what happened in the year, um, being lonely in the street, the drugs and all that [00:23:00] shit, you know, can you hold the We We had, um, had the people in the show. Um, And as I was writing the script, I was going upstairs occasionally. So do you want to be in it? And can you do a drag act or something, You know, but we had a straight boys do some straight boys in it. 11 was doing We're doing healing as this thing came off with the pro law and all that from 1986 that things broadened out. So we did a song called Sexual [00:23:30] Healing. And we included our DJ who had who was also a male stripper, and he stripped to the jockstrap. And it was the final night. I didn't know what was gonna happen. We got the full Monty. But it was one of those shows that just developed um, and I had one where the section would come and and we did the tea cup sequence, which is where you have to cut one way. It means you want straight sex or up on the side. It means you want a boy and you want upside down and you want a train. But [00:24:00] you know, that was it in Carmen's autobiography or so I used that skirt and that went down like it. But But I had a problem because we could not rehearse the show. So I had made the show in segments. And then we we did a final run through and at the last minute I realised that John Joli was the narrator, was behind the bar, and it was like a TV thing. You go to the news reader, and then you have the act on stage and give them time to quit. So but we had nothing. [00:24:30] John talks to Carmen as she arrives because she's coming from the balcony, and, uh, then she's got to get to the coffee club, which is just walk across to the stage. But I hadn't written the script so and the same thing at the end of the thing, I hadn't got her off stage. So I said to to Moore, was the, uh she She was a lovely lady Maori lady very much in the older Cameron. Um, but anyway, she was She was awesome. But [00:25:00] I gave her a book and said, Find something because there were so many little things we fixed up by. By then, I had a director for the show, but, um, what happened was on the night, I did not know what was gonna happen And she came in and they did The skirt and all the audio. We were packed house, by the way, packed house. Mostly, um, older people. When I say that about 30 plus crowd and a lot of them were relating to what was going on. Um, and she came off and she started walking to the stage [00:25:30] and she said, Hello, Albert. Parliament not setting tonight so that everyone laughed at that. Then Oh, David, the flowers. Those were great. Do Mum like them? Yeah, I'm really glad to do that. And she got up on stage and went through the, um, skirt of the cups and all that. And then she came off the stage and I thought, What next? And she's walking off the stage, really standing up straight and right, right? A large lady. And she said, Somebody asked and you know, do I hear [00:26:00] somebody ask me if I was pregnant and she said, Oh, and I flapped up one. And she said, Well, actually, I am. And then what's that? Do I know who the father was? And, uh, do I have eyes in the back of my head? Well, every night the show stopped it. It just It just drew everybody. She was She was brilliant. But what I liked about it was the acceptance that people weren't calling in a corner. And when we the last [00:26:30] thing we do, uh, on this thing is we do I am what I am as a, um, curtain call at the end. And we did that. And people we got every night a standing ovation. Um, but the thing was, I flipped it into two halves. I got criticised because the the the last half, um, dragged out a bit, but we decided we had to have a drinks break, so we sold stuff over the bar. So we went for half an hour because everyone is chatting away, you know, and and anyway, I had [00:27:00] Tony on the the opening night catastrophe. Tony was, um, the drag queen from way back. And he got on and he sang a song. It is the right way to do it and that mean bear in mind. He's 72 and as he got up on the stage, he chipped up and sprained his ankle. So for every night next of the next eight night, he um sat with his feet and a bottle of bucket of ice drinking gin so he can get on stage. So it was one of those sort of [00:27:30] They said, Well, the end story at Finn has a final night, and you all go down to San Francisco and we're all having drinks and awards been given out. And somebody somebody said, What are you doing? You're meant to be out there. And what do you mean? Well, this caught you out. And what the hell for? We we won an award for the most colourful show in the fringe. Um, honourable mention and in the theatre section. So I thought, Yes. So where it comes to that. But what [00:28:00] it did show to me was the acceptance of society had changed from when I was trying to trying to put myself in a closet for that reason. Um, I, I am what I am, and that's basically it. What year was this is 2007. 2007. You've covered, um, well, decades worth of of material. And there is so much in that. Do you Do you mind if we just go back and can I ask you a couple of questions about, um, particularly [00:28:30] in the the days when, um, this is well before homosexual law reform. So we're talking about the sixties. What was how how were homosexuals or bisexuals treated? Um, bisexuals were probably like I told people by the gay community. The guys are pretty saying you're not gay or they used to get ostracised. You don't go with those, and and that was that was that way. Um, yeah, [00:29:00] the the rugby clubs and that were, man, um oh, we're not gonna play a bit of a puff or whatever, but because they look pretty straight and I believe they put straight, I think you know, I. I more got worried that somebody would find out. But I got away with a lot of things because I work on CV and they called me glam. But no, it was, um there were things that that you didn't do. I mean you. It was an underlying thing there. It was not right to be [00:29:30] a homo homo. Um, but it it was uncomfortable. What kind of words would they use? Oh, um um yeah, I can I can honestly just come in fine detail. But it was. But, you know, I, I touched on it because there were guys there that obviously the way they're born in in their system were were gay. And I mean, they were window, [00:30:00] um, dresses and things like that, and they obviously go. What's wrong with him? It's not in your face. It's like John And on, um, are you being served? Clap your hands around, by all means, But you're not going in the face of somebody as straight, and you're trying to straighten them out and to get them, you know, to be your friend. You know, um, the the thing was, ironically, there was a lot of British, uh, shows on at it was the interesting part. Hudson and horse got laughed at, you know, got accepted, [00:30:30] and that would I would say that would be the first I could be wrong. But the first play in New Zealand, that was New Zealanders were gay people on screen. So was it one of those things where you could be in certain situations? But actually, you knew when to kind of pull back and and actually Oh, hell, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah um, let's say some of my friends, When I had a big birthday party at the end, I was, um, on my own, and my wife and I decided [00:31:00] that, um, we want to go our own ways because the kids are grown up. We had a big, big party. I had my bank manager there, my travel manager, everybody in life and bloody dentist, for God's sake, um, just invited them along because there's a station in your life and and, you know, one of friends here, But But, um, a lot of people who knew me did not know me and, um, to me, they said that it explains a lot. Yeah. Um, [00:31:30] yeah, just Well, it was a great party. I mean, you you have you have a party in a blue note and then the the the big drag queen. Turns out Amanda, who I was at managing at the time, decided to sing. I am what I am to have the speakers out outside facing the state Highway one and fighting out, dancing out with a microphone in the middle of state Highway one, traffic lights and everything coming to a standstill while she does a number at my birthday party. I mean, that was class. Um, the other class was that [00:32:00] we had John Key. The prime minister used to come to Logan Brown across the road from where we were. And one of the things we did was do shows for him, climb out on the balcony and have the two dicks below that are basically guarding him because he was at the window up upstairs, and, um, we put on a show for him. Um, you were jokes like that you would get away with now, and, um, that will have to be. We were there until [00:32:30] 2009 would have to be 2008. You were about to about 2009. Yeah, he's got Tuesday night down at, um, Logan Brown. I mean, when he used Winnie, Peters used to go to it was a great wait, wait. But, um yeah, but when when he was so small. You know, um, I was at the I came back from a trip and went to the green one night when he came in with, um, James Shaw, Winston Peters and James. [00:33:00] I mean, behind the scenes in Poli. I mean, I had a lot to do with Parliament. At one stage behind the scenes, it's, you know, we've got a job to do, and now time to relax. But at the same time, you you get some pretty stick. It don't blow hards, you know, and you got some people you never hear. So in the in the sixties, how did you meet? Um, other people from the rainbow community. Um, I didn't know there was a community. I mean, [00:33:30] I'm in the sixties. Did you even consider it? Because in the first half of the sixties, I was at college and, um and then went on and I started TV in 60 67. So the community to me didn't exist in now. Well, now it was later on. Um, but I didn't meet gay people, but I wouldn't say there was a community of people there, and it wasn't until I got to the door and in the seventies that that's when it became apparent. Um, [00:34:00] well, I'm just trying to think we when we went down south, um, yeah, yeah, there was in the Christchurch. Now we used to get on the overnight my friend and I used to go go skiing at Mount Hut and Porter Heights. We'd go down on the at eight o'clock on Friday night and, um, Mel, I think Mel was on the on the boats in those days and famous. Mel, that's, um, we had to check with him, but But we'd go down to Littleton, would [00:34:30] get on the train, or they the boys would pick us up at the evening. I think most of the time we got on the train and got to Littleton. They picked us up, took us straight to mount, Did the glam things like laying out a white table cloth of bloody chandeliers and the whole bloody lot in the car park, which you know. OK, Yeah, OK, I look and off we go skiing. And then that night we'd go to a party in something like Pendleton and, um, really classy places and look at some movies that someone smuggled in from overseas. [00:35:00] But yeah, that that was that. And we we stayed at somebody's flat house. But they had a good good group there, and we went down as a Taylor's mistake in Christchurch. Yeah, yeah, we went there for Christmas. Somebody had a batch, and there was a whole group of people there. I was not I was familiar with, um as I say, case and that I mentioned earlier. We went to places in Island Bay. But ironically, next door to where we are now was a very famous house, [00:35:30] which was, um, had a a symphony orchestra pianist, deer who was a gay guy. Paul Cole. He passed away many years ago. He used to have the grand piano deer, but I used to have, um I've spoken to the lady next door who spoke. She told me she said it used to be a gay scene of men dressing up, as as ladies was next door. Now, at the moment his partner has passed away. He died years ago in They're actually going through the files. And somebody in the archives has been up [00:36:00] there. That's next door. So they're going through. They're finding a lot of documents about that. So, um, that's all been taken out bit by bit, I think. Roger. Roger from, um we got 35. 24 next door. It's been sold. Yeah, and some of the stuff still there. We still got to get it out, but yeah, What was? Unfortunately, I won two later, but but, um yeah, No. So there is that going on. But basically, [00:36:30] I didn't really know. I just me It was me. I mean, you know, I like I like I like people who played sport. I like people who, um, swimmers on that because, you know, you always, um you should see See what they were but did Did did Did you ever name it like, did you ever you know, like, say, gay or bisexual? I mean, or was it just This is who somebody was? I don't think I knew the word gay. No, not really. [00:37:00] Um, no, I never knew that. I wasn't until many years later. This gay I could be wrong, but I, I don't recall the word gay. Um, maybe in London, What time I got to London in 2003. I mean, in 1973. Um, yeah, but we went to the, uh it was a big eye opener. London to go to Vauxhall on. Um, what's the name? Tuesday night you'd go to whistle in Camden Town for Sunday lenses And there were a lot of kiwis here, uh, Australian [00:37:30] kiwis, Um, and, um, then we go to hampster he and some bathed in the men's area, and then we'd go down to the green man, I think, at the green box or something. Um, for the dinner night and it was all good. And we tend to get to know some people now working in BBC. That was classical gay. It was classical gay. The commissioner, um, liked me really much. I was able to grab his hat off and wheeled up to my edit that day with his hat on. I mean, it was [00:38:00] a lot of fun, but, um, yeah, but it was very, very more open in London than it was in New Zealand. So do you feel like, in the late sixties did you feel repressed or liberated? Because I'm thinking that, you know, gay liberation didn't happen until, well, you know, the kind of activism activism stuff didn't happen until, say, the the late sixties, early seventies. Well, bear in mind that closing I started about in 1967 at 10 o'clock and then your age was [00:38:30] 21. And then you come 20. I ignored the law in terms of you know what the hell You want to tell me what to do? And that was the thing. I just stop you. I What happens privately at this stage, The stage with me you don't need. I'm not in somebody's space. Um, and that's my my attitude to things. You know, I just like some people in the thing yesterday in the demonstration stuff. A lot of you. I'm gonna do this, but it's a wrong game. They can play yesterday. But what I'm saying is, I don't [00:39:00] I didn't see why that's not right, but I I'll do what I want to do. And, um but I'm not going to do something that somebody can run away and say, Hey, you've done it. You know, uh, it's naughty. I mean, a lot of people, um, in Wellington, in that club from all walks of working. So how did you come across the Dorian Club from? We were were working in the, um, bar and bar, and we had to be up [00:39:30] by 10, 10, 30. So people often said to us Well, what are you doing after? And so would you like to come and have a drink. Of course we want to have a bloody drink because we were actually not allowed to drink. And and we we walk down from, um from what it Dickson street to Lampton to the opposite. Or now with David Jones that there was a later do and they moved up to Willow Street village. The building got pulled down, I think. And the one opposite David [00:40:00] Jones we was Was that like, on the first floor or so Not ground floor, but first floor? No, it was on the first floor. The staircase went up. I think it was Hannah's shoes. Stop. But I could be wrong. I had to look at, but I have in my mind the shop was there and there was a door here and after you went upstairs and it, um, then stepped up another half step to get to the dancing. And there was a I think toilets and that, for some reason, there, but and the office was [00:40:30] there, it wasn't straight up. Come up the stairs, your office there. Then you go up another two or three to the next bit, so I don't know why that happened. But it was there. But, um, yeah, it was good. We had They had Sunday parties there. Um, and I think once we had a ladies party because I remember taking my one of my place there. But a lot of guys that's funny. Guys did not want women in their in their bar, and they didn't want it in, um, up there. When we worked in New York, there was still at the days that the, um, lounge bar [00:41:00] upstairs was for women. That's where you took your your partner. So it was segregated. Segregated? Uh, your public bar was men Tavern bar was men. The best was men and the and the Chinese. But upstairs was a nice lounge bar And that in those days, when I read back in history, the lounge bars were for ladies the same at, uh, Britannia, the public bar with the men and mostly people working at the Dominion in those days pointing it and all that. Um And then, [00:41:30] um, the bar up front was for let take a lady, but mostly your lady for taking you when you went in there. Because that's what we are secret place. You know, the pre You going down? Uh, basically where New World is, Um, And you had on the corner. You had Duke of Edinburgh. That was That was a mixture of upstairs. You have a mix of people, and then you went down. You had the, um, Saint George [00:42:00] across the road, but that was pretty straight. And then you went down. You came to the Britannia? Um, the Carlton now, the Carlton had a lot of us TV people in there. But then you drunk to about seven, and then you went up to the So there was a creative people who had to go home to the wives and kids going home, and the others of us went up and did a nice smell in the air occasionally, but, um so, like, literally, there was a bar on every corner. Yeah, well, you you you look now, [00:42:30] Um, well, in those days, Cuba Street would become Cuba more than 67 when I started working. Um, so, yeah, it was I mean, the the oaks is is became a pound in one part, but that was upstairs. And that would have been. And that's where the banana bar was for a while. You Scott, would tell you about that one. That was a bar there and then tucked into a, um, dance dance floor bar up there. But [00:43:00] that all changed when the building got demolished. And the, um, bar was that known outside of rainbow circles as a kind of a rainbow meeting place. Um, I'll put it this way generally. Yes. Um, but having said that, you'd have people mistakenly walk in and look around and you smile. We smile. OK, guys, what do we like to drink? Uh oh. And out they go. Apologies. We'd send [00:43:30] them through which I had just come through here. Just go out there. The bar. You wants us there. Don't send them to a whisper, but, um, no, it was that. I mean, you caught because the middle of town and bear in mind that the hotel, the hotel room above you, they come down to drink at the bar and, um mistaken. Well, I say mistakenly, but some people will. I remember all the guy took their shirts off one night. There was a lot of English sailors there, but I think they were in the wrong thing. They should have been in the [00:44:00] but But, um, you know, it's it's you just don't know. But no, it was, uh, to me, I never I only worked Friday on Saturday nights here. We did not seem to have any altercations. Not inside the bar. Um, we've had one or two. I you know, Steve had this problem where somebody's come out and then come all all ops and he or their way out and argue and that we never had any of that. Um well, [00:44:30] I didn't experience, but then again, I wasn't a full time barman and just getting back to the, uh, Dorian. So what kind of people would be going to the Dorian, um, all game, any age? Yeah. Um, you get the familiar faces. I mean, we are the ones that are really known around town. Um, are you a businessman? Um, I we had MP once, um, came to have a look at the place. [00:45:00] Um, it wasn't Joe Walden. He got caught out in, um, Palmerston North. Um, but no, we were, um I think, um, what's the name? A couple of couple of people and I won't name them but back there, um, there were a few scandals which were the one in Christchurch with a was a complete farce. Um, you know, he's he's a lovely guy and very good politician, but he just got accused [00:45:30] of things were just not If you look at it logically, it couldn't happen. And the kids were The kids who were involved were out just to get money, and I don't even think they knew he was an MP but that those sorts of things came out. And II I was really annoyed about that. Um, no other allegations of the the 19 seventies had a number of politicians, um, being accused of homosexuality or or what have you? And it was, um a lot of it was a a kind of like, um, using [00:46:00] homosexuality as a political weapon, wasn't it? Yes, it was. And I mean, Lindsey got caught out and going innocently to the lower heart toilets. And then he got accused of whatever, and it wasn't right. And I thought sometimes I wondered, And when you look who was running the newspapers at the time, I could see the the this because we were accused of being left wing. Well, we weren't. You don't do a story. It's not true and doesn't stack up. I mean, we ironically, [00:46:30] um the back of our building in, um, Victoria Street overlooked the toilets in the library that Moya was supposed to have got into. And be honest, I was so naive. I did not know what what went on. Um, and some, you know, I did go there occasionally to go and have a just a standard. We were, you know, And But there was I was aware in, um when I played cricket, uh, in the late sixties, out there were toilets [00:47:00] where it is now in a swimming pool, and them and we finished early, and I sat in the car and I was just going there and went out. What note? I noticed guys were sitting in cars watching, and then I look back. I know now what is happening to go in there. And I thought I was waiting for my friend who came to finish and and anyway, and then the guy would come out and then Oh, that guy went in 10 minutes ago. He must must got a He got the shots or something, you know, but, um, no, [00:47:30] that that was what I learned was a cottage. It wasn't my scene. I never, never really got to. The toilets were to go in for toilets and get them out. And so the television New Zealand Building Was it on where the central police station is now on street? Um, with no, no, we were, um, where the library is. There was, um if you look at photos, there was a carpet shop. [00:48:00] There was a office block, uh, next to it with with us, uh, we production offices and preparation and programme. Where in Taylor Street was this is before 1975 up to about April 75. We opened. So what you did, you did production down there, and it wasn't studio based. And then you went up to studio and and all the programmes played from from in Taylor Street. So we were there. Then you had, um I think it was a liquor store under cars [00:48:30] and a shoe shop on the corner, but you went up balcony. But the thing about that was I volunteered to work a lot of night shifts because, um, I want I needed. I was getting studies and other things, but I wanted, um We just put a lot of equipment on editing machines, but do not enough. So I we had to do start doing night shifts, which is unusual in those days. Um, bear in mind there was no Sunday shopping and Friday night, late nights and all that. So you got to take a back LA. [00:49:00] So I volunteered to do night shift, which was fine coming in at five. Go home well, and have morning tea about, you know, lunch at about 10 o'clock at night. Well, on the second floor, we were working just me and my mate. Um, I'm editing away and I go to the toilet, and the toilet has happened to have a, um next to the urinal, you could look down on the balcony below you, and the window was open because there's a fire escape and all that. So anyway, when it's a hot day like this. And, [00:49:30] um, Anyway, I'm looking out there and I voice suddenly go. Hello? Would you like some coffee? And I look out and there was this lady I thought was sitting down there. It was. So I said to next door, there's a strip club there. Let's go down. So we climbed out the window, go down there and I've never seen people that have fixed us top and bottom before. And he cracked up and he said, Oh, what is it? They were getting dressed, you know, moved up here and God knows what. And that's my first meeting of came and she asked [00:50:00] us what he was doing. So when as we went on, um, we we went and visited the coffee lounge a lot. So he always asked me how TV was and things like that. She was really, really good. And that's how we got a friendship with how I got her on Tele. But yeah, but it was quite interesting. But that's that's was where the place was. And ironically, the affair was just around the corner, thinking of your first meeting with Carmen. What? What was your first impression? When when you met Carmen? Um, first impression [00:50:30] was very professional. I was surprised to find it in Wellington. We We were supposed to be a backwater, you know. And my first time when you met there, there was no, no Saturday shopping. And the pubs are shutting at 10. Um, you did not have the free and easy society we now have. Um but no, she was always glam. We I. I edited the final programme and close up. Um, we did an item on her leaving New Zealand, um, to Paul. Ransley was a journalist, [00:51:00] and, uh, you know, she knew I was around and I was going to it, and she was quite happy to talk about things. But one of the most moving scenes I I managed to get her to do was we had to end the programme somehow. And I said to her, You know, are you gonna leave the suitcase behind with all the the stuff? Are you gonna just gonna be car and the boy or what? And she said, No, I'll do something for you. So you said, find a, um with a light going with a back to you, but you couldn't [00:51:30] see her face. And the light goes slowly down and she takes her wig off and stands up, and that was walked off into the darkness. To me, that was very powerful because she had, um she stood for me. She you know, she done all sorts of things she'd made claims about naked beaches would be doing that soon. Um, she was, you know, in the forefront. And she had Bob James behind her. She was [00:52:00] wise. She probably paid the bill, but, um, yeah, my my payment account. First time was for this. This is a lady knowing what she's doing. It was unusual, but there's no way she could be running something like that as she was. And she had the lady at the back who used to. I can't remember her name off hand right now, but he used to spend in those days. We were vinyl records. And she'd say, And now we hope for you. Please. You ladies and gentlemen, do Dolly Dolly Jones or something. [00:52:30] And then she'd startling thing and crackle away, and then it would jump down. Oh, fuck. Start again. Um, but yeah, those are the things and and people I saw in that bad thing because we had a coffee. You could see who tweeted. Some of the people surprised me, one of my cousins, a school teacher, but, uh, he was sitting there in the audience and there were people that you see around town and going to a strip club. And I went well, well, but But she had the report for do it. [00:53:00] And it so went down because the the place got demolished for the library and she ended up with cars up the road. She went into the curiosity shop, which is down the top of Cuba. Um, that was another thing I didn't I didn't have much to do it. I never came up that part of town, but, uh, yeah, but she was always there, and people were always talking about her. Can you describe the interior of the balcony the balcony had at the back? It was a big open hall [00:53:30] with seats, just normal seats. No, no, nothing fancy, but we only sort of night time. But, um, so the the street side, uh, you came up and came in on the right hand side. The DJ box had its back to, uh, Victoria Street. The stage was face this place in, um, Eastern Those days. The stage was a big It was a big open area, and they serve coffee and then drinks quietly and somehow [00:54:00] they a bottle of coke may also have an A. And then you notice the cap comes up quite quick. Um, nobody got poisoned or anything, but, um, so you got the music from the back, and then you had the lots of lights on and the stage was a big white stage. Probably. I know how many metres this is, but but that stage with a with a curtain with a curtain, and they did not use the curtain, they used to come from stage right and do their numbers, and [00:54:30] they come amongst the audience, and there was enough room to get amongst everybody. Um, and the, um, dressing room was out the back. And of course, you had the bit I've described earlier outside where you can walk on a little bit of a deck, which is if I was so, uh, yeah, I know what's gonna happen. When we did have a bar in one building or the other, we all clang together, and it would surprise some people what was there? Um, but I had an open mind. I. I didn't I mean, people live and people got got to work. [00:55:00] Um, yeah, I got invited to some quite a few of their functions. It was quite interesting. How did how did the police react to Carmen? Or in particular, things like the balcony? Um, I didn't I didn't go too much. Um, I never saw any influence with it. I never saw police cars outside because in those days you could park right there. Um, but it was I think you could follow up on that one with the guy that went to the 70th, um, party. [00:55:30] Yeah, Yeah, he was the one that would be the expert on it, because I honestly, I didn't have much police in those days to Bobby hat. And, um, that was about it, as far as I was concerned. Um, holding cars and that and, um no I. I knew the only close thing I have with the police was at the That's when we are you talking to ask what your name is and all that shit. So, um, I did tell my name straight. I wasn't gonna [00:56:00] go any other way. Um, but but the thing was, um I never really saw the police do anything. No, I never saw there were stories in the paper from time to time. Um, yeah, but not I never come across him. But do do you think that was more if the police knew where you were? So, like, say, the Dorian or at Carmen's, that was actually they were quite happy for that because I think they were because [00:56:30] you were contained in that. Yeah, I think I think the police accepted that these things were happening. And unless you went across the line and doing something, something that you shouldn't and you should have stopped. I think that that was the thing. I don't think that that's a he. I don't think it was, um, like, we're gonna go out and find them. It's like the anything like the, um, overstays in Auckland from that era. Bear in mind, they were doing things that they shouldn't really have done [00:57:00] the way they did it. But I don't think any I. I don't know if they had the resources to do it. Um, but at the same time, um, they're probably more excited about judging, um, bill such and secrets to to, um, Russia up Holloway Road. And if we were looking at the gay people, if the If the gay people just keep them to themselves, And I think that would be my most important thing. What about, uh, S International Coffee shop on Vivian Street? Can you describe that? But that was the one where [00:57:30] you, um it's ironically, the Salvation Army owned the land land. Um, and, uh, and that's where the Salvation Army Church is now. So they actually own the land. They were charging her rent. Now, the thing about that, the Salvation Army, on the other hand, were telling you she can't be gay. Um, that's what I I'm in a hell of a bind here because I was adopted. And I was born in Bethany, just down the road from where I now live. And that was a Salvation Army home. Had that not been there, I [00:58:00] don't think I'd have been got to not say it was. I did. My mom didn't have. They had a good start to life with me as I found out. Um, so I was hypocrite for me to ignore the Salvation Army, but they used to go down Vivian Street. You'd start at, uh, the bar on the corner. The next was the music bar. Then there was, um a hole in the wall was a bit naughty. And then there was, uh, evergreen. OK, so this is actually, um, heading [00:58:30] east. Yeah. And we we we're going down on the section of Cuba and Vivian Vivian Street. On the opposite side was the, um, Papa Depo, a sex shop on the corner with all the different toys. And that's where a lot of guys went on and and just relieved himself at the in the, uh, little booths watching something. Um, Then you had the strip club above, which belonged to Papadopoulos. The purple onion was a purple onion. Not the music bar. [00:59:00] That strip club, so and then you had next to it was the big white one. I heard something, but it was owned by somebody in Auckland. Um, but there was a big strip club there, and below was the main cigar bar. And that's where I think you got ladies. That's now the recycling shop. Then you got what was here in New Zealand or head offices here and then became archives for a while. Then you got more little shops down to the so was actually further away. You had to physically get there from [00:59:30] if you're in the middle of the red light district. But Marion Street was the workers in the thing. Marion Street at one stage had 60 people working. And then you head up the street in Smith. The girls were working. So there, those are nice things. In the old days, you could drive around in a circle down Cuba up. Marion can't do now because of the way the motorway is. So people would drive through and make a choice and then go back and go up. Other times I don't go through. [01:00:00] And in my day at the, um, upstairs in the blue note, um, we had one of the girls, one of the girls there, dressed up, she had a lovely, uh, leather coat given to her by her friend from Auckland. And she'd gone out to Marion Street night early because we were watching the rugby and the flat. She came back. She said, Oh, I like my coat. It was nice and warm, and she came back about three quarters of an hour and it had egg going everywhere. And so I said, what happened? She said, Oh, some bastard [01:00:30] threw eggs at me that it was a nice way for your coat. So she came back, but that that was her walking the street and they were driving in a car. You don't I don't seen that since, um, but as I say, Carmen was further away, and she used to. She used to live partly upstairs at some stage. So when you got to Carmen's, it was not or dazzle. You had to know it was there. And then, um, there was a little window, [01:01:00] and the thing would open. Oh, you hear you. Hm? Ok, you can come in. And yeah, so was that on the ground floor, Actually, another issue. So, um, so what you go inside is a flamboyant, um, thing like an Egyptian parlour, right? I think you see photos of it, but the thing was there it's like here you'll be sitting here and someone will be sitting here and it's lit. Or so you thought. And this person has ordered [01:01:30] something. And while we're busy talking over their disappeared, they've gone through the bloody curtain and going up for a bit of house about that, you know, But, um that was on one side. But, um, yeah, it was. And then as you walked out, the kitchen was there. And the thing that they there was always do do I think, the name of door or something. Um, doing the dishes. And she'd always turn around and have a look at you. And then and then if you you said something rude because bear mind states were going [01:02:00] to Cameron and politicians, Um and, um, she'd come take her shoe off and chase them with a bloody hell. Um, it was really quite new. And I see her several times. Um, but then he went out the back, and there was, um Yeah, it wasn't much, but the coffee lounge itself had something about it. It was a mistake about it. It was calm to the to the, um and she she'd be waved through. She'd make sure she'd know everybody. I have television going. [01:02:30] Oh, how are you today? Have you? You know, it's it was like that. It makes you feel home. Evergreen did the same too. But evergreen was more or less, um, because you were which basically helped the people on the street, and I got a taste of sandwiches and things like that, but was was really, really a good coffee. It wasn't that. And also the coke never, never really tasted like real coke. I called it a classic Coke, but no. And you you didn't pay to get in. [01:03:00] Um, so I think once or twice we did. For some reason, I can't remember what it was. Um, the balcony always paid to get in. But how much would it cost to get Oh, God, Maybe about 50 cents. And bear in mind that when I started, um, started work. I was being paid £525 a year. And that turns one about $1000 in those days. And so would you actually tip the the dancers? Um, people did, um, they a dollar and, [01:03:30] well, we didn't have the notes. I can't remember. The word change was all it was. All changed. Yeah. I'm just trying to think how the hell we did it. Um, but the the one that I really liked was the girl with girl and banana on a motorcycle. It was a really funny one. But there were There were things to come and say, Oh, come and set a girl with banana, you know, But, um, people trying to as I say, I don't I just can't bring about was done because we we had, um one pen. You had [01:04:00] one pen? Yeah, we went up, and then it come up the 10 10 cents for five cents. 10 cents. Um, I want to go. Yeah, well, we know your days are two shillings and and crowns, and it's not like putting a dollar bill. It's not about well tucking into the undies or something like that, you know, Um, yeah, we we a lot of fans, but, you know, it's it's over the time I. I agree. More confident, um, [01:04:30] to be myself. I mean and, um, not in people's face, but just be realistic. And not for 10 that didn't exist. That was a problem I had in the early days. How then? I'm thinking of, say, when gay liberation. And when things became a lot more political in the seventies, how did that impact on the rainbow scene, particularly if if you've got a a generation or a number of generations [01:05:00] that actually don't want to be particularly ruffling feathers. But how? How did that work? Well, my my problem answering that question is simple because I got married in 78 and we basically end up out of town. So I was more. When the kids come along, you're focused on them, Uh, occasion. Come and see me and that, and they'd always say hello and that but my on the scene in terms of the clubs and everything from about 1978 till [01:05:30] God knows when, um 96. Something like that. I don't know. I just was not insane. I wasn't on the scene. I went on a lot of business trips, and I might have gone and had drinks at the bar, but not not. I mean, when I went to Auckland on business, it was the Empire and Dudley playing the piano. He was a, um a New Zealand steward in those days. But he was he was he get to know people like that, and, um and they were comforting in sense that they're just doing what they [01:06:00] want to do. Um, but no, I was more or less off the scene. What was it like then? Seeing the media coverage of, say, homosexual law reform in the mid eighties because there was a lot of coverage. They were brave. You had bloody Norman Jones. Well, he was wicked with his bloody walking stick flying around fly across that, you know, he he he came from probably it up. But he, um he there were really, [01:06:30] really strong feelings. Dear, um, as I say, I was in the job I was doing. I come across it and I thought the people were very brave that were getting out there. Ironically, David Hindley worked for TV, and I did not know that I worked with David, but I never really thought what he was doing was taking photos and things like that. I've been over to Vietnam to to where he's been over there now in, um, Cambodia or no, Vietnam [01:07:00] was Cambodia. Cambodia. Um and he knew he was in Cambodia, and, um, he was amazing. I mean, I. I moved into sorting out, setting up the television archives in New Zealand in 1982 81 82. I spent 10 years there, so you get to know the importance of holding on to stuff and all that sort of thing and balancing and bringing in computerization. What to do and and the idea [01:07:30] of make access to it was a hell of a lot easier with computers now. But I I'm just looking out at the blue sky while we did this interview, and I'm thinking I do a lot of blue sky stuff. You you had to go on a pedestal and just think way back and the BA basically in the blue skies thing was that archives have to be accessible for everyone. And, um, what's the point in doing all the stuff? And we used to have people who were all doing and I'll keep it, I'm gonna keep it. I look after it, but not [01:08:00] looking at the other side of it. And of course, now what's forced them open a lot is that money is required, and you've got to get out there and get some money. I mean, it was in my day, I had stuff everywhere. So, um, the first thing was rounded up off a from Dunedin out of a panel beter shop in and things like that. But it made me very aware. As I grew along, I went to conferences, And I thought, Gee, this is a big industry, a very big one. And, um, I end up writing the rules for the, [01:08:30] um, collections in New Zealand and, um, people like Jonathan Dennis and that were helping me along on the side. Um, we took over the national formula. Um, in 1990 I think it was my role there. People said, Oh, well, he bought it and I said No. I said, What I want for New Zealand was the fact that they had a newsreel from 1941 the current day under one roof. And not only that protected, that if TV NZ got sold that [01:09:00] they wouldn't go overseas. I mean, we'd have to all those sorts of things. So a lot of things like that we go through and it makes you important. And that's why I've kept a lot of notes and that what I've got, uh, on things, um, photos, some of the photos, I go back and look at it. Amazing. Um, so, yeah, it's your life goes along and at times where you can't it's going fast and you haven't got time. I mean, I'm trying to look for photos for you right now, and I'm know somewhere there. But there's about 20,000 photos here, [01:09:30] and I've already backed them up. But where have I backed them up? Is it on that? That this one? This one? This one you briefly mentioned earlier about, uh, HIV. And I wonder, are you able to talk about, um, how you became aware of that in the eighties? Yeah, Um, we just started stories about gay people and reality of personally. I just saw there was something happening. I didn't see it as affecting me because I'm in the the married environment with kids, [01:10:00] and I'm not out in the community, but at the same time, Um, but I was in broadcasting, Um, so, as I say, when I said about Mark one of them before, I did not know. They said it was cancer. I did not know at that stage it was HIV. I knew I knew he was gay. It was no problem about that. But I didn't realise that it was early days. It was really the right in the early days that happened, and the other couple of people I knew, um I only took an interest [01:10:30] in a in a sense, that who do I know? That could be possibly, uh, heard. And what support will they need? But it didn't really happen. Um, in later days, of course, we have body positive. I've been helping Ron is the sponsor stuff for, and I and that and the team. Um And it became more where I met people who actually heard it, and they were addressing it and, you know, sympathising with them Not not being soppy or anything like that. But just saying you want we're gonna go [01:11:00] go for a ride up to to some barbecue. Or would you like to come Not not ostracised and put them to one side and not wanting to know I never went down that track. But the HIV thing, um, to me, I didn't I wasn't watching that much TV I was making TV but I, I didn't watch it. Um but I didn't really do it. I didn't I as I say, I was in the archives by then and I wasn't making programmes. I wasn't editing programmes. Um, so no, I just can't really comment too much on it. I knew it was bad [01:11:30] did. Did you Do you think there was ostracism coming from rainbow communities to to people with? Yeah, I? I think it was, um, I. I just think that there were people scared, you know, that, uh, to get it. And, um, if somebody got it, they they they 50 50 yards away from them. You know, I don't want to know this person, whereas a lot of others gave support, but it was a great unknown. I mean, you didn't know quite [01:12:00] what it was, um, and we knew it affected gay people. But then we had that lovely little girl that got it. And then we had other things saying, Well, it's not just gay. Come on, this is a blood thing. And, um, that's why I When I was on Rainbow Wellington, I got a bit annoyed because if you were doing blood tests, you're taking blood donations. Then surely that blood must be tested before you put it into somebody. So why stop a person? A gay guy doing it? [01:12:30] You do do a blood test. The blood is fine and move on. It doesn't matter where it comes from. I don't know if they can technically say That's not in there, but all I'm saying is I felt ostracised and that I could not go and donate blood. Some people can't can't donate blood anyway. It's like having put a mask on or things like that or or taking the latest, Um, Covid. There are people who can't take it or or they need a lot of it because of I I things, [01:13:00] you know. What I'm saying is they don't take the vaccinations what I mean that, But no, I got annoyed that there was people there who should should have just shut their face, shut their mouth up and also step back and say, Dear God of grace of God, could go I And by doing so, um, they just learn a bit more and say, Look, you can't pick it up that way. Talking to them you're not gonna pick up ads giving them a lift in the car down to the movie [01:13:30] theatre or going to movies once or twice. Get them out of the house. You're not gonna get age and that that basically and I don't think people understood it totally. I think it has some really strong parallels for where we are now dealing with the covid epidemic. Um, we are what? Just coming up to two years, um, into the covid epidemic. And interestingly, in touch wood in Wellington. We we haven't yet. How had [01:14:00] an outbreak of the Delta variant? It doesn't seem to have been, I mean, all the way, but it's not been picked up in the waters. So So how has I mean, this is like, completely jumping, you know, to the present day, How has, um covid do you think impacted on local rainbow communities made them cautious? Um, there has been comparisons. I think some people will say, Well, ages is pretty bad, and this is pretty bad, but, [01:14:30] um, my friend has come back. Um, yeah, it's, um I think on all of us we've had to take stock of where we're at. I mean, let's face it. In the early days of of aids, um, some people were were not taking precautions and things like that until we quite a few people got seriously sick. So it was one of those things that was like, Do I have the flu injection? I'm not at my age, um, I I had it once and I got laid flat for about three days. But [01:15:00] maybe I should have had it. Um, but I never did. But I also took care of of making sure that I take care of people coughing and things like that. But my my do. My doctor says basically, I'm quite a healthy soul. And if I do get something, I'll probably fight it quite well. But then again, I've seen people. A guy that died and just recently it went very quickly. So you just don't know. You don't know? Um, no. To answer your question, really? Do the rainbow people I know are people [01:15:30] that are pissed off and people don't wear a mask. And what they saw on television yesterday is totally I don't think you would have seen a gay person there, and, uh, that was a kind of a mass protest outside parliament, and it was like anti anti mandate anti-government bring about the Communist Party. I mean, it really. It just got out of control. I mean, I'll give you an example of the demonstration. We went to the black church thing of, [01:16:00] um, Destiny Church. Right. Um, I, um that after it was over, we were I was standing up near the steps and there were a lot of Maori boys there and they were in a black shirt. They all came up, and I don't think they knew what the hell they were doing That, to be honest, um, as we're walking away down to, uh, town a couple of the boys, two of the boys were walking together and said, Sir, can you tell us where the the bars are? And, [01:16:30] um, what happened was IT it up? And I said, Oh, well, it's way up town. But I said, If you want an all night and you've got a blue night now they said, Oh, we're on the bus and all that, you know we'll be there But they said, Oh, we can go up there. At what time does it shut? So I told him I said, No, you of age? Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, we were 18 and 20. So to cut a long story short and not going into too much detail, two of them end up dating with us that night, and it showed the hypocrisy of what had gone on in parliament before, They [01:17:00] did not have a clue that we were nice people. Not the same one being out there and, you know, trying to pick them up or anything, but came in the bar and then they they couldn't get back to the bus. So they had to go right out to Island Bay, and I wasn't going to run them out at that time of day. They were staying on the and but they didn't want to go back. So just there. And we took them down to JJ's for breakfast next day, shouted out and sent them on their way. They came from, um, it was [01:17:30] Victoria. But the thing was, it got me. The black said, This is This is all bullshit. Absolute bullshit. Um, and they they were down. They want to come to Wellington to work. And also they had rallies down here who happened to be on the streets, as went to he came down to part of one of them. So that was a hypocrisy of that. Um, the other hypocrisy of of was when he turned up at, um, buyers fundraiser [01:18:00] for kidneys in the, uh, street thing. A big thing when he walked in with and his wife organised and was used to be my flatmate and living here, But he, um they were the whole whole show stopped. Everyone there was you could drop The penguin came as he walked in That thing, it was about 100 people there, if not more. What the hell was he doing there? And there was a table book for them over there. And of course, the and all his bloody wisdom [01:18:30] come over to say hello to me. Come and meet my friends, and I'm going Oh, my God. I can because I know George Junior a long time, and she she she went over and said Hello. Thank you for coming, But who have fucking do sort of conversation? Um, but no, he it was, um those those are her. And I was saying she she wasn't too bad that well is gay, you see? So and he's right under the wing. So it I just can't work it out. And and now he's [01:19:00] in his sixties. Now he should know what what's black and what's white. But but I From my experience of it, it is, um I see those American things on town, Big clam and all that. And I think you're not doing too bad at that. And then you see the Harley bike and you see the other cars and that, and going around swanning around down Queenstown and God knows what when you're supposed to be in Auckland, Um, yeah, it It's just different, different world to [01:19:30] me. I just don't comprehend it. And considering what? That we're trying to get the Maori people vaccinated to save, um, to try and reduce that and young ones who's leading people. He should lead them to the right water. No, it's It's to me. It's just weird.

IRN: 3645
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_practice_a_panel_on_writing.html
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1107366
TITLE: Queer Practice: a panel on writing
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VOICES: Chanelle Moriah; Mia Farlane; Rose Lu; Sam Orchard
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD); Auckland; Chanelle Moriah; Good Books NZ; International Institute of Modern Letters (IIML); Marilyn Duckworth; Mia Farlane; Rose Lu; Sam Orchard; Samesame But Different; Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington; Wellington; autism; queer practice; screen writing; suicide; writing; zines
DATE: 16 September 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Good Books NZ, 2/16 Jessie Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: A panel discussion celebrating the writing practice of four queer writers. Chaired by comic artist, author and archivist Sam Orchard, authors Mia Farlane, Rose Lu and Chanelle Moriah explore what, how and why they write. The event was organised by Samesame But Different - New Zealand's only LGBTQIA+ literary festival. A special thank you to the participants and organisers for allowing this event to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: E hoa mā. Tēnā koutou. Tēnā koutou katoa. My name is Sam. I'm the chairperson of this panel. I get very nervous [00:00:30] talking in front of large audiences. So excuse me if I feel a bit nervous. Welcome, everyone. Thank you so much for coming along. Welcome, panellists. Thank you also for coming along. We run these events as part of the same thing, but different festival, which is Aotearoa's Queer, Trans, LGBTQIA Writers and Readers Festival. We have our main festival as part of Auckland Pride in February. We [00:01:00] also do these satellite events. And we really love doing these events in Wellington. A lot of our board members live down here. And so we're very excited for big turnouts. And also there's just an amazing queer writing community down here as well, so. Thank you. Um, we put on these events for free. We, as board members, work for free. Our [00:01:30] wonderful paid staff member, Liam, who's hiding in the corner, does so, so much for us, including these amazing zines that he has put together for today, which are free and available at the front. At the end, maybe you could pick one up for free when you're purchasing the books of these wonderful writers and support, um, Good Books New Zealand, who have, who are hosting us today. Um, also you can head over to samesamesamedifferent. co. nz to have a look at [00:02:00] the other festivals that we've put on. We try and record our sessions to make them available in the future. And we're also sponsored by incredible people, including Creative New Zealand. Um, but mostly, We're supported by the people who come along to these sessions, so thank you so much for coming along. So, our panel is about queer writing practice, and I thought to start off with, each of us can maybe introduce ourselves and talk about, a little bit about the [00:02:30] writing that we do. Then we'll talk about how we write, what the barriers are, what gets out. Words on the page. Um, I have a lot of notes and a lot of questions. Um, then we do some readings from these wonderful writers and then the why we write. And then to end with, we'll have a Q and a and then we'll do some mix and mingle at the end. So it gives you a chance to talk to the writers as well as buy some books if you would like. So, um, yeah, shall we start with you, Rose? [00:03:00] Introduce yourself, say whatever you want about the types of writing that you do. Kia ora everyone! Oh, sorry. It's really loud. It's really loud. Um, oh god, I feel like I've put on my sexy phone voice. Um, Kia ora, I'm Rose. I live in Wellington. Uh, holy shit. Yeah, I [00:03:30] can't! Uh, yeah. Kia ora, I'm Rose. Uh, I live in Wellington. I, um, have got, I did the, uh, Creative Writing Masters at the International Institute of Modern Letters in 2018. And that was my entry path into the writing world because before that I was just doing like software development, which I'm still doing. Um, and so I wrote like most of my first book of essays during their MA year. Um, bar one essay, which I did [00:04:00] after their MA year. Um, and that book, Or Who Live On Islands, came out in 2019, and I am currently working on a queer climbing novel. Hi. Um, yeah, I'm Chanel. I wrote I'm Autistic and This Is ADHD, which are also behind me. Um, and I illustrated them as well. I don't really know what I'm supposed to say. I've been in New Zealand since I was.. Nine? Question mark? [00:04:30] Um, Yeah, I don't know. I'm autistic. I have ADHD. Um, I bring the chaos, so have fun. Thank you, um, Kia ora koutou katoa. I'm Mia. Um, and, uh, Farlene and, uh, I was born in Aotearoa, and I have lived most of my adult life, oh, of, um, Scottish, Danish, English, grandparents, and further back, Irish and French, and, um, I, [00:05:00] uh, have spent most of my adult life in Europe, in the UK, and, uh, I, um, I, uh, I And a little bit in France, a few years with my partner, the writer Kristen Phillips, in red there, sitting next to my mother, Marilyn Duckworth, also a writer, so I'm surrounded, surrounded by writers, which is helpful. Um, and, uh, I'm a novelist, translator, and reviewer. I've, uh, had one, uh, my novel, Footnotes to Sex, is published by Viking [00:05:30] Penguin Books UK. Um, it's, um, set in London and Paris. And, uh, I am a contributor, translator in No Love is Not Dead, um, an anthology of poetry from around the world. And that is about to be reprinted in paperback, which is great. It was here in hardback. Thank you for inviting me. I don't know whether I said that, but thank you. So [00:06:00] we'll start with the good stuff about how. How do you get started on a new piece of writing? Okay, on a new piece of writing. Um, when, um, you ask that question, I think of, because I write novels, um, it would be a new scene. So I would think of a new scene. And what, what I need is just, usually a few words. Um, it could be some dialogue. And then it's like. Spinning, and it has to catch the bobbin. It is really like that. I've got something to get on and write. It [00:06:30] kind of happens for two, in two ways. Depends if it's my autism or ADHD taken over. Um, if the autism, if the ADHD is kicking in, it's going, Oh, we're writing something right now, write and keep up, because it's writing happening right now. Um, so I just have to type as fast as I can. If it's the autism, I will have an idea and I'll go make a long, detailed plan. And then I'll follow the plan when the writing is happening right now, does that, can that happen at any moment? Yes. I wake up at 2 a. m. and my brain's like, Oh, I'm writing a story right now. You've got to hurry up and type [00:07:00] it. Um, I need to think about stuff for a really long time. Um, so I think the writing starts internally in between everything else I'm doing for like literally months. And then when I'm. Ready to put stuff down on the page. It's the scene that you described. Yeah, but I think I often marinate on thoughts for a really long time. Yeah. In marinating, do you write little notes to yourself or do you just. Is it all in your head until it's [00:07:30] not? Well, I'm really conflicted about notes because sometimes I'm like, oh, I know I'll forget this interesting thing that I just thought of But I also think if it's sufficiently interesting, I don't think I'll forget it entirely So like I treat my own brain as a filter of well, 90 percent of my thoughts are stupid and like the 10 percent can just like float to the top. So does anyone here have specific things, whether that's writing exercises [00:08:00] or environmental factors, like I like to use a specific pen, um, or a desk or paper that are, that feel like really integral to your writing practices. Um, I've really been trying to be less precious about that sort of stuff because there's so little time if you work full time, you want to see your friends, you want to get enough exercise. I'm like, I can't be like, Oh, I can only, Right, at 27 [00:08:30] degrees, and if my cup of tea, you know, like, it's just like, you just can't be that precious about that sort of stuff, so I've just really been trying to get into the habit of, like, Well, I've got this two hours, and I don't feel amazing, but I think I just need to use this two hours. Uh, so I keep an exercise book with me all the time, uh, generally, and not tonight, because.. Anyway, a piece of paper, otherwise a scrap of paper, or I write on my phone if I've got nothing to write on. Um, I write on the, on the [00:09:00] laptop, but I can't take it anywhere at the moment because it doesn't work unless it's plugged in. But, um, I, uh, yeah, so I don't really have, um, I like to find a quiet place and a free place. It's generally so library or, um, the park and good weather, um, but generally at home otherwise. Um, I don't have a special pen. I did have one and I lost it. I cannot stand doing my illustrations or art or anything. If someone can see me doing it, [00:09:30] I can't know. So I have to be by myself if I'm doing drawings. That's so interesting. Cause I used to draw in cafes all the time and I would get interrupted quite a lot and people would be like, draw me, draw me. Not, um, what happens if you get, wake up at the 2 a. m. and you don't take that time to, does the writing go after that? So with the [00:10:00] ADHD, um, my brain likes to not hold onto things. So if I'm writing something in the middle of the night, If I don't write it down, it's, it's gone. That's it. Done. Um, but it does mean that I end up with a lot of really chaotic documents. So like, I'll have an idea, I'll write like a paragraph, I'll save it, and then I, I'll leave it. And then I'll be like, ooh, I need to write this piece, and I'll just go and find those documents with the little paragraphs. I'm like, ooh, I could use that one, and that one, we'll just put them together. We'll make a story out of it. I can see you nodding, nodding along to this. [00:10:30] Oh, I can, I can 100 percent relate to that. I've got sort of a box of messy bits of paper, or just, and not even just in a box, it's sort of spread all, it's just everywhere, it's a, it's, it's a mess, um, yeah. My next question is, have you, and you've talked a little bit about this, but have you ever changed your approach to writing? You, you kind of insinuated that maybe doing the IIML changed your approach, or gave you some time? [00:11:00] Um, well, I didn't write before the IML, um, which was, I like, I, yeah, I think I like, I didn't really write until I was like, Oh, I kind of want to do this creative writing program. I think I need to start writing to apply for it. Um, And like, I think you need to have time to do the writing, which again is, I think the key thing for me was, um, I [00:11:30] couldn't start writing until I started reading. Um, and I stopped reading when I was about 16 because I was just drinking all the time. Um, yeah. Um, and then like, I think after like going through uni and all that and, um, now I enjoy having time to read. But I think that in the period of my life where I didn't read a lot, I like never really felt like writing. I don't think I answered your question at all, sorry. That was a good answer though. How about you two? Uh, I think [00:12:00] something I used to naturally do that my teacher actually trained me out of, I've gone back to doing. So, um, with the ADHD and my poor story memory with autism and My other forms of neurodivergence, I really struggle to read really large, large paragraphs. I, I, the walls of text are super hard. I can't figure out where I'm up, I, up to, I lose place. Um, and at school, I would initially make really short paragraphs and my teacher would get annoyed and merge them. Um, And then, when I learned Autistic with [00:12:30] ADHD, I realized, oh, I was actually doing it so that I could read it. So, um, when I released my autism book, one, a little bit of the feedback I got from ADHD ers was that they couldn't read it because of the watercolour in the background. Um, so when I did the ADHD one, I made a point of breaking up the text into smaller sections and using the colour to break it up further. Um, so that was one thing that changed it. Uh, thank you. So, I, uh, Early [00:13:00] on in writing, I would, um, I was, um, helped by reading other writers that, um, Violette Leduc was so important to me, um, I, uh, could relate to her determination and her perseverance and, and, and, and the mortifications along the way. And that was so helpful to me because I had, I just, uh, yeah, I really appreciate her. She's a, well, you probably know, French 20th [00:13:30] century writer of autobiographical. Novels who had a thing for Simone de Beauvoir and so that was helpful to me and helped me feel more Oddly confident or happy about not being confident rather and then doing an MA in middle at Middlesex University and that helped me to to act as if I Believed the writings ever going to get published and the last one is belonging to a writing group [00:14:00] Which I still belong to I've been in a writing group for It's over 20 years and it helps me to, um, because I need to turn up with the writing and I know I'm going to read it out. So that was, has been helpful. How often do you meet with the writing group and what is the structure of that in case anyone else is thinking about setting up a writing group? I was asked to join the writing group when I went on a, I did a A course after work, [00:14:30] and the tutor asked me do you want to join the group, and that's how it happened, and I've been going there ever since, um, and how it happens is that it's on Zoom at the moment, because it's London based, but a couple of us aren't in London at the moment, and we read out work, we each have a certain amount of time, and we give feedback, and we actually send the work in before, not always, it's more helpful if we do, but yeah. You've talked about, in the wonderful zine that you can [00:15:00] read after this, um, About your love of unfiltered and raw writing. How do you go from that into work that gets published on the published page? Yeah. So I've always been a messy writer. I said that, um, I was, as a child writing, um, it was just a mess. I didn't, and it hasn't, that hasn't changed. Um, so to get that somewhere, um, where it could get published, um, there are three things, um, if I was going to summarize them, it's, um, shifting the work around so that it [00:15:30] is in a place that makes some sense in, in the novel, um, cutting the dross. And, um, and adding, because I do a lot of dialogue and I need to add that. Um, also I'll do all of the ordinary things like checking the punctuation. And, um, that the, the spelling is consistent. And one very important thing is getting feedback. So, um, with my writing group. You all have books published. Has, um, having [00:16:00] books out in the world. Just spoken, spoken about this a little bit, but has that affected how you've approached your next project in any other way? Um, I'm really stoked you've both have written more than one book because I feel like I'm experiencing the difficult second book like I Throughout the first 70, 000 words, um, which I think is, you know, a decision I back. Um, but I think that a big [00:16:30] difference between the second and the first book is like, I was publishing the first book to a audience of zero, like no one knew who I was. I was just like, ah, I'm going to do this thing. Um, and now people are like. When's your book coming out? I really want to read it. And I'm like, oh, no, there are expectations where there were none So yeah, I think that's I I think in hindsight when I was, um on Residency last year that was something that I was really like having trouble with. Yeah [00:17:00] One of the things that Renee had said in the previous panel was like just don't be afraid of chucking things out How does it feel to, to, to chuck out 70, 000 words? That's a lot of words. Yeah, some people I've told that too think I'm like an absolute psycho, but like, um, I feel so good about that decision cause I, I just knew it wasn't working. Um, and so I've started, like, I've just restarted with the same characters, which is, I [00:17:30] felt like the only thing from the first part that worked. Um, and I've only written. Maybe like 10, 000 words at this point, but I already feel so much better about it. And even though, like, some people in this room have read some of those 70, 000 words that I threw out, um, like, I know it's not objectively awful, but I just wasn't happy about it. And I, I think that's kind of the first test. Like, you have to be your own first reader. And if you're not happy with it, then, yeah, I don't think other people..[00:18:00] So, I guess the major difference between my two books is that the first one was never intended to be published. I wrote it for myself. Um, and then it released, and I was getting messages from people going, Oh, can you do an ADHD one? Please do an ADHD ADHD one. Like, okay. So, yeah, the major difference was that the second one was written to be published. It was written for an audience, which was.. It's terrifying. Um, and I was so scared I was going to get it wrong, and like, you know, with the first one, I didn't care. It was like, well, it fits me. [00:18:30] No one's going to buy it. Like, it doesn't matter if it's wrong, who cares? Um, yeah, so it's a little bit scary. With the, the way I write is often, um, it's a sort of method acting where, where I will get into character. That's very much how I write. And, and so that's the same with all of my writing, except when, uh, with my, um, Uh, novel that I was writing that, um, was about suicide and, um, suicide obsessed character. I needed to do [00:19:00] a lot more, um, ongoing research, constant research, which I didn't. Do for the first one. It's sort of different. Um, but, um, so that was different. And, and my, the way I did it was to wander around with or as my character creating events, real events that, that, um, that I then fictionalized. And, and that's something that I did. I had a lot more time because that was in 2019. I [00:19:30] was, um, on unpaid leave from, leave from the poetry library in London. With my partner here for family reasons, and I got a Creative New Zealand Arts grant. And that gave me more time to, to be with my character. And so then I had this idea I will wander around with, with her. Um, so that was a different writing method, or sort of more. With that change of writing method, did you feel like there's a preference for one or the [00:20:00] other, or? Well, I suppose it's, it's quite similar. It's similar. It's just stronger. And I went out there very actively, you know, doing that. Um, I don't think I'd do it for another, I'm not doing that for the one I'm writing at the moment. Yeah. So a few of you have talked about terror, um, particularly of like expectations. What keeps you going when you do reach that kind of scared of what, what next? [00:20:30] Place or what the expectations are. Um, I just really hate having a job. Like, I'm like, Oh, I have to like suffer under capitalism. I have to make like, you know, I have to make money to fund my life. And like, when I have time to write, it just feels so much better. And so like anytime I'm like. Just my job, I'm just like, [00:21:00] oh my God, this feels horrible. Way more than people's expectations. Yeah, that's kind of what it is, and I'm just like, oh, it's actually so much nicer to write when it, when you come down to comparing it to like going to your job, that is deeply relatable. Um, I think for me, the nature of my books plays a huge part in it, so, Yeah, I was scared. I was scared to release the second book.[00:21:30] Um, but I, I had had feedback on it because I wrote both books, getting input from both communities. Getting input from ADHDers is very hard, I must tell you that. Um, but I had a lot of positive feedback on it and I was.. It was just me being scared. And I had seen how much the first book had helped people, so I'm like, wait, it's too late, my publishers have paid me for it, nothing I can do now. Um, let's just let it happen. Yeah. Hmm. [00:22:00] Uh, I don't know. I mean, with the suicide book, I didn't have any fear at all. I perhaps should have, because it's a subject that no one wants to read or talk about. Um, but I didn't worry about it because I was so interested in writing about this book. I was one of the, one of the books that I wrote with the least worry. I didn't care at all. I just needed to write this book. Um, I do care about how I've written it now. That's something else, but the actual writing, um, yeah. [00:22:30] I think probably one of my fears that I discovered along the way. Um, I mask, so I copy people a lot. And, um, when I wrote the first book, we'd finished it, literally finished it. And I looked at it again, I was like, Shit, I've copied someone's writing in here. Um, I fixed it. Fixed it, it's fine. But like, I was so terrified that I'd copied people and that I'd get sued. So we've got things that block us include [00:23:00] capitalism, fear of expectations, um, copyright violation. One of my things is that I've been writing this graphic novel Usually I write strip comics, which is like four to six panels. It's very easy. I just put it on the page and then put it out in the world. I don't care very much. This one is a full length thing and I've just gotten lost in it so many times in the middle of it that has just [00:23:30] left me with this feeling of like, I'm never going to finish this thing. I need advice around this. What, what, what do you. Do you, do any of you have strategies around what to do when you're stuck in the middle of something and it feels murky and there's no end in sight? Um, I just don't put pressure on it to be honest. I work when my brain lets me work. Um, and I don't worry about it. And like, yeah, I want to get things [00:24:00] finished. And usually, I'll do things in one go. I wrote an entire book in a weekend, right? I mean, the first book took me six weeks to write and illustrate. So like, I can get things done really fast. But if I do end up stuck, I'm just like, Okay, well if I come back to it, I'll come back to it. If I don't, I don't. Yeah, after my first novel, it was, um, very hard. I had the second novel syndrome, absolutely. But I'm, I'm not there at the moment. But I, um, I have writing friends, and that would be, for me, the one thing that I'm so grateful [00:24:30] for and need. So we talk with each other, or email, actually it's usually email, and that, that kind of um, help of being, of knowing just a few people very well, so that you're not putting a front up, you're actually saying how you really feel, that is very helpful for me. What is it about the act of sharing that with other people that feels helpful? Yeah, we share our mortifications, I suppose. Um, we share our, um, ups and [00:25:00] downs to put it vaguely, um, and, uh, and, and, and encourage each other. I mean, it's an encouragement, but also, um, oh, I'm, I'm sending this out. What about you? You know, that sort of thing. Um, on a very practical sense, like I guess I also felt like I was stuck in the middle of a project because I had 70, 000 words that I'd thrown out. So I already sort of knew lots about it, but I didn't know everything. Um, the writing exercise that I've put [00:25:30] in that booklet was something that was shared to me by Nathan Joe, who is It was the creative director of Auckland Pride, um, when we were on residence together in D. C. four weeks ago. Um, anyways, it was the only writing exercise I'd ever come across that was around dealing with a work in progress, rather than starting a work, and that was.. So useful for me and I just never seen a writing exercise like that before and that personally for me really helped me unblock a lot of the [00:26:00] things I was doing. Um, and they're like, um, process involves kind of like mapping out the structure of your story and just sort of like breaking into a different medium really helped me sort of think about where I wanted to go with the book. Um, and also like, I think I, I don't know about you guys, but I often just hate everything that I produce. And so I, and I think I had like put enough distance between the stuff I was sort of working on during that residency, [00:26:30] um, and me reading it with fresh eyes. I was a bit like, oh, this is not that bad. And like, sometimes you read stuff and you're like, oh, this is fucking terrible and it got published. And I was like, well, you know, at least I know my work is like. at that standard, you know, and so it's kind of a bit of like, ah, you know, some of the stuff I read day to day, I'm like, ah, that was a bit average. Like, you know, my work only has to be marginally better. And I kind of hate it all the time anyway. So it's okay. I think that's what I do with, with [00:27:00] my comics. I'm just like, I just put it out and I'll be mortified or I'll just be fine. It'll just be fine. Um, I think now we should, we should do some readings so that people can hear about the types of writing that you are all doing. Um, would anyone like to go first? Um, this is the start of the essay Cleaver from this book. [00:27:30] The cleaver is a flash of stainless steel. The blade is rectangular, about 25 centimeters in length, and almost a centimeter thick at the spine. The tang runs the full length of the handle, which is a flattened cylinder of metal with the same brushed hue. Two grooves on the bottom edge of the handle blend seamlessly with its sides. The curves and lines of the cleaver have an ease to them, a fluidity, as if metal naturally flows into these shapes. Just looking at the heavy [00:28:00] blade makes me quiver. It can part meat and bone with just one strike. My fingers twitch with an urge to take the handle and close my grip around its perfectly shaped bottom edge. It'll have a good heft to it. The blade is stamped with the logo of its manufacturer, Guangdong Yangjiang Special Steel. Using a cleaver is about force and momentum. My dad brings the cleaver upwards and lets it swing down under its own weight. [00:28:30] Bang! A fish's head is severed from its body, jaw shuddering from the impact. My dad turns the cleaver, calling its flat surface into action. Smack! A thumb of ginger splatters open, spilling its aroma. My dad rocks the cleaver back and forth on the chopping board. Fwop, fwop, fwop. A spring onion stalk is slashed into four segments. My dad faces the blunt spine of the cleaver down. Thump, thump, thump. A cucumber is [00:29:00] crushed, white seeds and clear fluid flowing out of its jagged surface. Using a cleaver requires precision. Tap a tap a tap a tap a tap. My dad finely dices cloves of garlic into pointed tips. Thump. Thump. Thump. The cleaver passes through a hunk of aromatic braised beef, slices falling cleanly and evenly, with a cupped hand at one end of the meat and the cleaver at the other. My dad runs the cleaver along the chopping board, [00:29:30] scooping slices of meat onto its flat edge. There is a Chinese proverb that goes, tóu biān meaning, the best meat is next to the bone. Sweet and sour spare ribs, a dish originating from the Shanghai region, has always been a favourite in our family. The pork ribs need to be cut into one inch segments, perfect mouth sized morsels. My dad is well practiced with the cleaver. Bang, bang, bang! He lifts it to chest [00:30:00] height and still the blows land exactly where he intends. Often, I'll see him sitting on the step outside the kitchen, holding the cleaver in one hand and a whetstone in the other. The whetstone is soaked in water for an hour before it is used. When it's ready, the matte stone has the same texture as the black sand shore at Kaiwi after a wave has receded. My dad passes the length of the cleaver along the whetstone in one steady stroke. The contact makes a soothing sound, [00:30:30] like a branch dragged against concrete. He turns the cleaver over. The sharpened side catches the light. He draws the other side along the core stone, and the sun's reflection dances on its beveled edge. Um, because there's so many different topics in my book, I decided it would be a little bit awkward to try and pick some. So I'm going to read an article that I wrote as the [00:31:00] publicity of, or part of the publicity of the ADHD book. If I saw life through your eyes for a day, what would I see? Stepping into someone else's reality can be like living in an entirely different world. Would you recognize life if you could switch places with me? 7. 30 a. m. My alarm demands my attention and my mind is quickly flooded with overwhelm and anxiety as I prepare myself for the day. Rubiffin works to get my brain in order. I dread getting changed as I dig through my closet to find the least painful garment to wear. I reluctantly brush my teeth and finally I pack my bag. One, headphones. [00:31:30] Two, lanyard. Three, watch. Four, phone. Five, wallet. Six, keys. I count out loud, grab my bag and head out the door. It's raining today. Have you ever noticed the way the raindrops trickle down the leaves, magnifying each vein that makes up the venation pattern? Have you noticed the way the sun shines and the water glitters on the sweet smelling roses? Have you noticed the drumming of rushed footsteps as they seek shelter from the storm? The water splashing and spraying as cars roll through the puddles? The chatter of crowds while trying to speak over one another as they forced their way inside? The clicking of umbrellas as people shut them down? The slamming of doors in frantic attempts to [00:32:00] avoid getting wet? The music in the distance that comes with city life? The humming of electricity running up the poles of dimly lit streetlights. Have you ever noticed all of these things at the same time while the water seeps into your socks and the cold breaks through the surface of your clothes? Have you ever noticed all of these things at the same time and felt frozen with overwhelm? To me, life is like a piece of music, but every aspect is a separate instrument that I experience individually rather than part of a whole. I imagine the bliss of being ignorant to the individual details of life as I see, hear, feel, and smell every little thing as its own separate piece fighting for [00:32:30] my attention all at once. But everyone seems to manage, so I pull myself within and I display a carefully created shell of normality. 9am, it's time to work, but there's a piercing sound echoing through the office. It doesn't seem to bother anyone else, but it hurts my ears. It's not electricity this time. That has a different sound. I can't make it stop. It's as if all of my senses have been amplified in comparison to all of my peers. The touch of jeans on the back of my knees feel like thorns piercing my skin. The smell of perfume makes me [00:33:00] feel as though I'm suffocating. I dislike the way some sentences vibrate as they roll off my tongue. I'm getting overwhelmed. It's not socially appropriate for me to search for the noise that others can barely hear. To be honest, society is blind to the plethora of social rules and communication expectations they require every day. While the world is screaming through all of my senses, I also sit monitoring every tiny aspect of my existence and being, every movement, every gesture, every tonal fluctuation, facial expression, sentence structure, and acknowledgment must be consciously and carefully chosen. I must monitor when and how I [00:33:30] make eye contact. I must ensure that I'm reading between the lines, not taking things too literally. I must not be too fidgety. Be careful not to be too blunt. I must automatically know when someone is being sarcastic or making a joke, and I must not be too sensitive. I must be authentic and express myself. But not like that. I must ensure that the correct emotion is displayed on my face, and I must somehow monitor all of these things and manage the physical pain of the intense volume of my surroundings without ever showing any sign of overwhelm or distress. Why? Because this is my daily life. I must do all of these things while still somehow actually listening to the conversation and getting my work [00:34:00] done. I must do all of these things and then bear the blame when miscommunications occur. I must do all of these things or be excluded and forced into isolation. Can you hear what I hear? Do you spend every day trying to act like you're not living in a world that is speaking in a language that you do not understand? Do you spend every single day doing all of the work trying to understand everyone else while they all just ignore the fact that you're burning out? Do you understand what it's like to feel incompatible with life? I'm going to skip a little bit because we're going away. The thing is, people see these struggles and think that I am the one who needs to be [00:34:30] helped or fixed. When you're part of a minority and the world sees your pain, they think the solution is to erase the existence of others like you. If you cannot exist in a way that is aligned with the majority, it is believed that the problem lies with you rather than with society. The reality is that's not true. I read all the message in the comments I receive. I hear the pain and the struggles. I see how drained we all are and I know I need to get up again and again and keep fighting. So I'll try again tomorrow. Right now though, I rest. Today wasn't the day and that's okay.[00:35:00] So I'm going to read, uh, from my first novel and also, this will only take five minutes, um, a poem from this wonderful pamphlet, um, by J. P. Seabright and then a short piece from, um, about how I. wrote the Suicide Book. Okay, so I'll start with this. So all you need to know about this is that [00:35:30] the main character is in Paris and she's just been at a restaurant with a woman who's 20 years older than her and she's got a thing for a bit like, um, Violette Leduc for Simone de Beauvoir. Uh, and it's not her partner. Okay. They left the restaurant at about 10. 30. May asked, Would you like me to walk with you back to your apartment? Francine said, yes, you can walk with me and will you carry my bag too? She smiled and held out her bag. Yes, I will carry your [00:36:00] bag if you like. May know I am teasing you. Really, you are behaving like the boyfriend I never had. I wouldn't want to be behaving like a man, May said. I don't see myself like that. Francine asked, how do you see yourself? This is interesting. Not like a man, May said. She felt embarrassed. You see yourself as a woman then, Francine said, and she laughed. Francine was either being mean or she was being flirtatious. I am a human being, May said.[00:36:30] And here's the poem. It's from Trauma. They go through the alphabet. This wonderful queer writer from, uh, London. Trauma W. Write what you know, they said, but not that. Speak your own truths, they urged, but not this. It's too raw, too real, too upsetting for others to read. It's not what [00:37:00] people want to hear right now. Do you have something lighter, less, you know, dark? Be authentic, they said, but not too real. Write what you know, but not actually about you. Write what you know, but what if.. This is what you've always known, what you've only ever known. Sexual assault, rape, suicide, incest, self harm, depression. Sexual assault, rape, suicide, incest, self harm, depression. Mental, mental breakdown, alcoholism, gender dysphoria. Exhaustion, mental breakdown, alcoholism, gender [00:37:30] dysphoria. Exhaustion, chronic illness, chronic illness, loneliness, isolation, pain, despair. Isolat Loneliness, isolation, pain, despair. Write what you know, but not yet. And now I'm going to read a very short piece, an extract from R U OK?, a writing event published online in Moxie magazine. It's about the fluid boundary between author and character, and um, as I said, um, where I was wandering around being [00:38:00] my main character. It takes place in a second hand bookshop in Te Whanganui a Tara. And you just need to know that the main character is obsessed with suicide. I, my main character, She, went to the counter. Have you got anything on suicide? I thought I'd ask and then I or she she was the one I was always thinking of Could get a cup of tea somewhere rather than spend half an hour trying to scale the psychology or self help sections or whatever Where there was in here picture piles of books on tables [00:38:30] and floor to ceiling shelves The man led her, or rather me, to the back of the shop. He said, you might find something in that section about how to help teenagers who are suicidal. He pointed over at the parenting section. And over here, he pointed at another non fiction area, you might find something about being near the end. But I'll go and look on the system in the meantime. Oh, thanks. There is always something a bit awkward about asking for books on suicide. On sex would be the same. But being polite can be a [00:39:00] help. I'm also interested, I added, and therefore so would she later on, in fiction. If you can think of anything, fiction or non fiction, anything at all. He went off. A Parent's Guide for Suicidal and Oppressed Teens. A blue dot sticker on the cover with the number 31 written on it. Not anything I am interested in. I am not a parent and neither is my main character, but still. I opened the book, as she would too. She did in fact question the point of this time wasting activity as she saw it. But I pointed out [00:39:30] to her that although I was interested in her primarily, I also had potential readers to consider, and aside from the necessity of variation and tone, some of them would be parents of teenagers, or teenagers themselves perhaps, or people who were concerned about people other than themselves. So we could at least pick up the parent's guide. And I reminded her that although her focus was tightly narrow, and rightly so, she was set on going to Parliament's public gallery while we were in Aotearoa to watch the debates around the end of life choices. An [00:40:00] activity you could describe as lacking in tunnel vision. Diversification, she said, variations on the parent's guidebook in my hands and in my character's hands. In pencil, on the first page was the number 10, and under that, Babies short for baby section perhaps excuse me I said to the petite beanie wearing person make her taller make her a man who was shelving nearby does this mean it's 10 That's right. Oh, thanks. Did that what did that make the [00:40:30] 31 mean then? Oh, well, if you need any help just ask Thank you. Not with my life, I don't. Preventing your suicide and that of others looked interesting or rather overconfident by Dr. Howard Rosenthal, who, as the blurb told her, or me if you prefer, but later her, teaches you to say no to suicide and really mean it. Scientific, scientifically sound advice in a lively, folksy manner. The most important book you'll ever read? You bet it is. I left it on the shelf.[00:41:00] The last section, before we go to questions from the audience. Why? Why do you write or who do you write for? Um, I mean, like I said, my first book I wrote for myself. Um, so I wrote it to put everything in order. I had just been diagnosed at the age of 21. I had been in the mental health services for a very long time. And at that point in my life, [00:41:30] I had been attempting suicide at least once a month. Um, so getting a diagnosis was.. It was a huge thing. It saved my life, but I had to then reprocess everything I knew about who I was and what had happened in my life. And that was just me putting it in order. So that was, that's why I wrote that one. The second one, I had seen.. The way my first book impacted people, um, and I'd been asked to do a second book, and I knew that with [00:42:00] ADHD, there's not a very great understanding of it, it's just hyperactivity, it must be little boys, they're violent, you know, and so, I thought, you know, well, I have the ability to write a book on this, people are asking for it, and I know that the first one was helpful, so.. I did it to help people. I like helping people. Uh, so I don't really think about the reader when I'm writing, but, um, I do tend to write about.. Characters who don't come across well who struggle [00:42:30] and that seems to connect with some readers And I also write a lot of dialogue. So I suppose people would read it if they like a lot of dialogue and they would have to be people who are comfortable with messiness with unresolved situations and Humor dark humor because I do think there's a place for it. I think it helps Yeah, [00:43:00] um, my first book I definitely wrote because there's just no, there's not very many. Asian New Zealand writers. Um, when that book was published, we had one book of fiction, um, maybe like four or five books of poetry. Um, this just wasn't really much. And there was not much that was, um, about a contemporary experience of migration, like there was some stuff that was like more archival, like about the history of like sort of the. Gold rush Chinese people. And then there was like the history of the, um, [00:43:30] you know, market gardening sort of generation, but I really wanted to be like, well, I came in the nineties as did a lot of other Chinese and other Asian people. Um, and there is not really any literature to reflect that experience. Um, and that's why I wrote my first book and then. Um, for the second book, I was just like, Oh, I can't write for an audience. It's too much pressure. I can literally not think about that. Um, and also I guess in terms of like a, [00:44:00] of a sustainable, like creative practice, I think I realized that I first and foremost had to write for myself. Um, and so I think that's why I was just like, well, I need to write something that. I would like to read, um, and that's why I also threw out my first 70, 000 words, because I didn't like reading it. I've sent through about a page and a half of questions, and Rose was like, We're not going to get through those questions. And I was like, I think we will. We have not got through the questions.[00:44:30] Um, and I'm going to end with the question that I want to ask, because I'm treating this as my own self help panel. Um, one of the things that I really struggle with is, That, as one of the kind of few trans comic people in New Zealand, sometimes it feels like people will read my comics as though I am talking about the trans masc New Zealand experience and [00:45:00] that stops me from writing because I don't. I want to be able to write for myself and to share my own things without it getting extrapolated onto a community. And I wondered if any of you had thoughts or feelings around, um, writing as a queer person, um, or with a marginalized identity and, and how you, how you process that or how you deal with that. I just address it straight up in my book, like [00:45:30] right at the start of the book, I explain that I cannot write on behalf of an entire community. The book is designed to be edited and adjusted for each person, and I have just created space for people to consider things. Well, um, I was reading out my book about suicide and I was asked, are there any lesbian characters in it? And, um, and, uh, but I'd already written the book by then, so I didn't feel the pressure to actually.. There is lesbian [00:46:00] content. It makes me think of, um, Hannah Gadsby, who, who, who said, um, I, I love this, she said something like, um, She was criticized for not putting enough lesbian content in some show, and she said, Well, I was standing there the whole time. So.. I think there's something true there, but, um, also for my first novel, um, Footnotes, it wasn't, um, it wasn't publicized as a lesbian novel. And, um, I was interviewed in, you know, Diva magazine and places like this, but it wasn't, [00:46:30] but I actually didn't want it to be a lesbian novel. I'm happy for it to also be a lesbian novel, but it's a novel about a long term relationship. Relationship and about all sorts of other things, idolization. Yeah, I'll add something funnily enough. Um, so the title of my first book, uh, the subtitle includes that I'm diagnosed. Um, and someone decided that because I'd written that I was against self diagnosis. And so the book wasn't for them. Um, so I tried to try and explain[00:47:00] that as well. Um. Yeah, I feel that so hard about the, oh no, everyone's gonna think that I'm the X perspective, um, and it's so hard because like if you read a book with Like, straight cis gendered characters. There's so many of them, and they have so many perspectives, and no one would ever think that there's a canonical cis gendered straight person experience. And so, I guess, like, the only thing [00:47:30] is, like, I think I've seen how much, like, you know, like, like Chris being the current part laureate, like, how much his work has sort of, like, influenced. Other like young queer Asian writers to be like, Oh my God, I can be doing this as well. And it's just, yeah. One of the, we can only just keep going and be, be supportive. I think is the biggest thing of like people. I like, I think as a general rule, I'm always just like, people should be writing and like people should be encouraged to write. Um, and [00:48:00] yeah, I'm just hoping for a future where there is more diverse literature and more diverse literature is being consumed as a default. So when you, you know, have a. You know, you can have a novel that incidentally has queer characters or like POC characters and that's not like the sensational part of the novel because we can all be like Sally Rooney's normal people, you know, like I think another thing with this is that You can never predict how [00:48:30] people are going to react to things and you are gonna get bad reactions to things So I think when it comes to writing you have to learn to be confident in yourself like I know my intentions with my book. I know that I was not writing on behalf of an entire community. I did my best to make that clear. I was very careful with my wording. But you know, there might be some people who think I'm talking about an entire community. And that's okay. That's not my intention and I just have to trust myself and be confident in what I've done. Wonderful. Is [00:49:00] there any questions from the audience? Hi everyone. Uh, my question's actually just for Rose. Um, when you were thinking about doing the masters in creative writing, what made you think, and you, you said you hadn't done that much work beforehand. What made you think that you'd, there was a writer in there? Um, shout out to my friend, Amon. Who said, Hey, Rose, you're really good at writing. Have you ever considered doing the Masters of Creative Writing? [00:49:30] Um, like before I moved to Wellington, I don't even know you could do a Masters in Creative Writing. Like I did not know that was a thing that existed. I felt very lucky that that was, I came here and that I knew enough people socially that had gone through the Masters of Creative Writing. And they were all quite encouraging about it. Yes. Thanks, Eamon. I would like to know how, when you're getting published, like how you [00:50:00] balance oversharing or if there are things you're scared to share and how you know, like when to hold something back and keep it personal or like, yeah, when you're sharing things that are a bit scary to put out there in print and get sold in a book. The thing is, I, I have no control with my ADHD. I share way too much, and I do it all the time, um, and I've kind of just gotten to a point where it's like, [00:50:30] I, I've been through a lot, and I could learn to put that away, I could learn to hide it, and I could learn to follow the rules of how much is too much, um, or, I can take that, and I can stand out, and I can make people know that they're not alone, um, so, yeah, there's a bit of a balance of not sharing too much, but I value being open and honest, um, I think my main caution is around which age [00:51:00] group I'm talking to. So if I'm at a school, um, I will still share my story, but I will be very careful in my wording. So, uh, example, I went to speak to a bunch of intermediates, a good 200 kids there. Um, and I gave my talk and part of it is, yeah, I did struggle with my mental health and the kids who weren't neurodivergent. Over their heads. They didn't know what I was talking about. The kids who were neurodivergent came up to me afterwards, um, and they asked me, very directly, if I [00:51:30] had struggled with suicide. Um, so it's, yeah, I think I've just gotten very good at Wording things to reach the audience that I want it to reach. And skipping over the audience. I don't want it to reach . Just one thing, I think that, uh, writers quite, oh no, I won't speak for everyone, but, um, a lot of novelists as well are liars. And, and I think it's a safe thing to be, I don't go to events and say, I'm now going to [00:52:00] divulge everything. I don't, I prepare. I know. Oh, I think they might, and I won't. And I'll ask this and I'll answer that. That is the truth. That much of the truth I'll give you. Hi, Jim. Um, there was actually an essay in my book that almost got pulled. Um, because when I was in the editing process, one of the editors at VUP were like, um, I don't know if this should go in the essay collection because it feels a bit too close to home still. And I [00:52:30] think that's something I really think about is like, I don't, I don't love to read trauma on the page and I would never want other people to read trauma on the page. And I think that. I think you personally need some distance from trauma to write about it in a way that is safe for a reader. Like, I think it's really different from if you're just like processing it, then like do whatever you need. But I think specifically with publication, like, I think Um, you, yeah, you want [00:53:00] it to feel safe for the reader and for a while I was, um, the nonfiction editor for a Australian based lit mag and which I think was popular with quite a younger audience and like so many of the nonfiction essays that I got sent to read, I, I would just read them and I was just like, there's no way I could publish this because I think I would be doing you a disservice to like publish something that felt this. Raw, because I'm like, I know you feel [00:53:30] about this. Like this about this now, um, but I also know how you feel about it will change and it felt weird to be like, and there's going to be this artifact that's attached to your name on the internet about it. So it's, I think it's really hard to say when something feels safe to a reader and like, you know, with the particular essay in my book, there was, it was obviously like some doubt in there that emerged for one of the people. For UP, but I think, [00:54:00] yeah, at the end of the day, like, get more people to read it, ask them how it feels about it. And then it is just kind of your call as well, because I was just like, oh, okay, I get that. They feel like it's a bit marginal, but there was a bunch of other stuff in the essay that I really sort of wanted to be published that was not about traumatic stuff. So yeah, it's a really, it's a really tough call. Yeah. Um, another thing, uh, in hindsight, looking back, um. [00:54:30] One thing I think people should consider when they are writing is what it's taking away. So, I released my book, and it wasn't until several months after that I realized I had given up the luxury of choosing when and how I disclose. My name shows up, it comes with my diagnosis. I don't get the choice anymore. Um, would I change it? No. But, I wish I had thought about it, and.. Made that choice before I had released that information. [00:55:00] So consider what you're sharing. I think we have time for. One more question. You can shout it out and we'll pick up. Um, I just wanted to ask Rose, when you deleted your 17, 000 words, or when you chucked them out, did you like, full on delete them? Or did you like, put them somewhere so you could look at them again? I mean, the file's still on my Google Drive. It's in the cloud. Um, but like, I actually printed out a hard copy right at the end of the residency. And I [00:55:30] was just like, I always was like, oh, I'll like, go back to this. You know what? I don't think I'm going to go back to this. Yeah. All right. I think we'll end it there and then you can have a chance to nibble away and read away and maybe buy, but thank you, our wonderful panelists. That's been amazing. I feel like we could keep chatting for a long, long time, but I know that, you know. We have to go home at some point. Um, [00:56:00] but a round of applause for our panelists. Also, a massive thank you to Liam and to the Same Same board for putting this on. Liam, you've done an incredible job, especially with the zine, but for all the work that you do, you're amazing.[00:56:30] .

IRN: 3643
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1107365
TITLE: Meet your rainbow candidates - General Election 2023
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VOICES: Andrew McCauley; Craig Watson; Gina Dao-McLay; Glen Bennett; James Christmas; Michael Gibbs; Ricardo Menendez March
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2020s; ACT New Zealand; Adoption Act (1955); Andrew McCauley; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bill English; Chris Carter; Chris Finlayson; Christianity; Christopher Luxon; Civil Union Act (2004); Conversion Practices Prohibition Legislation Bill (2021); Craig Watson; Elizabeth Kerekere; Gina Dao-McLay; Glen Bennett; Green Party; Human Rights Commission; InsideOUT Kōaro; James Christmas; John Banks; John Key; Keith Holyoake; Make It 16: Lower the Voting Age; Marilyn Waring; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Michael Gibbs; Ministry for Pacific Peoples; Ministry for Rainbow Communities (proposed); Ministry for Women; National Party; New Plymouth Prison; New Zealand First; New Zealand Labour Party; Out at PSA Network; Planet FM; Posie Parker; Public Service Association (PSA); Rainbow Youth; Ralph Hanan; Ricardo Menendez March; Robert Muldoon; Tiriti o Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi; Treaty relations; Venn Young; Wellington; Winston Peters; access to health care; adoption; community radio; conversion / reparative therapy; conversion practices; culture wars; gay; hate speech; health care; marriage; marriage equality; media; non-binary; sport; trans; transgender
DATE: 31 August 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Public Service Association (PSA), 11 Aurora Terrace, Wellington
CONTEXT: Rainbow Wellington and Out at PSA Network hosted an event to meet with rainbow-identifying candidates standing in the 2023 General Election. A special thank you to the candidates and organisers for allowing this event to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Yeah, hi, I'm Craig Watson and we're at the PSA offices, uh, in Wellington. Yeah, so today, um, Rainbow Wellington is holding one of our professional networking events and we've partnered with PSA, who, uh, or out. psa actually, which is the LGBT group inside of the PSA network. And we're going to listen to some, um, MPs, some candidates who are standing for election, um, to talk about.. What's important for them and that are in the rainbow community and get to meet them and also just meet other people from the rainbow community [00:00:30] So rainbow wellington have done these can meet the candidate events for a number of years now Why is it important for you to hold these events? The rainbow wellington's kind of motto is about connecting the lgbt community in wellington Um wellington's a bit of a powerhouse when it comes to politics and and and policy and so we really feel it's important our place as a, as the kind of LGBT, um, one of the LGBT communities here to actually, um, connect our community to these candidates, these [00:01:00] people who we will see in the street who will be standing up saying, I'm gay, I'm queer, um, I'm standing for you. And we actually want to. Meet them and talk to them and find out and tell them our story and say these are some of the things that we are We're struggling with and this is what we expect of you if you're going to Be a part of our community and use that as a platform to stand on So what are some of the things that? Members are struggling with at the moment Yeah, I think, um, today I received a phone [00:01:30] call from, um, a health care provider in the South Island who, they were looking to, um, help a young person who is transgender move up to Wellington, and we were talking about transgender, um, housing for transgender people, um, for queer people who are suffering from mental disabilities, um, and there's a real shortage, I think, for, or there's a real sort of lack of care of established systems to help these people who often, um, um, Come out of traumatized environments, um, [00:02:00] low self esteem, low self worth. How, what is the, what is the, what is the, what is out there to help those people? And I don't think we've quite got that right yet in New Zealand. Um, the specialized sort of care that these, these groups need because, you know, um, and this, the case in point for this person was Um, they can't go back to their support networks of family because those family are the ones that are rejecting them. And this is unfortunately what this, what the, a very, I would say, specific need for our queer community is often whānau is not a safe [00:02:30] space. And so they actually need to leave their, um, support network. Traditional support networks come to a place like Wellington, where we are a lot more inclusive. But what are those systems and practices? And when you look around to community groups, they're often overstretched, overworked, underutilized. And so we really think that it's a, uh, an opportunity for government or, um, central government to stand up and actually put some processes in place. You know, there should be some support out there. The trans community is very much in the [00:03:00] media spotlight at the moment, uh, because of, uh, a lot of anti trans sentiment, um, particularly after Posey Parker's visit here in, uh, March. Thankfully not to Wellington. Um, are you getting a sense of that from, from your membership as well? Yeah, absolutely. I think, um, the transgender community, I think, are really, really feeling it at the moment. They're, they're under a lot of pressure, and I think, um, potentially under a lot of pressure. Unknown or unnecessarily aware pressure, um, the, the, you know, this, the, the rhetoric we receive from the [00:03:30] states and other conservative countries, um, it, it, it filters through and it does get through to the transgender community and the, the people that I speak to and who are, and my transgender friends, they are feeling it. And I, and I'm really worried about them. Um, And really want, and really want to, um, see government and I suppose health providers do a lot more for them, um, and, and, and to find out what we can do. I, I sort of, my hope is that they are able to find people and places [00:04:00] and community groups that they can reach out to and ask for help. And my fear is that the only people that they trust to reach out to are already snowed under with these requests and, and underutilized. We're coming up to a general election, obviously, while we're talking to the candidates tonight. Um, last election, the last parliamentary term, saw a huge amount of rainbow MPs in Parliament. What do you think it's going to be like in the next term? Yeah, I think, um, I mean, [00:04:30] you know, if you look at the polls, that, um, I think we will probably see slightly less. Um, queer MPs in, in Parliament, um, it's, I, I still feel our LGBT Parliamentary members are not doing enough for, for our LGBT, uh, most vulnerable, yeah, um, and would like to see more, I think, you know, and I think we've seen, we've seen a few indications from um, people like Elizabeth Kerikeri where, you know, she's been pushing really hard and got Probably her hand slapped.[00:05:00] Um, and I think that's a sign of, um, how government really is handling our LGBT people. So what are the key messages that you want to, to give the candidates tonight and then in the future give to the, the, the new rainbow politicians? Yeah, I think, um, yeah, this is something I have been thinking a lot about because we, one of the events we often hold post the election is, hey, let's meet all the rainbow candidates. And so one of the things I often think about, what would I like them to do? What would be their top [00:05:30] priority as an LGBT person in government? And I do come back to a, a ministry or an agency or a, or a group that is set up to support the healthcare and the wellbeing and, and other things for rainbow people. And I think that's still. It's still a need in this country. I don't think we're there yet. We've still got religious organizations which discriminate our people. We've still got healthcare. We've still got our prison systems that are still discriminatory. We don't, we're not there yet. And I think an agency needs [00:06:00] to address all of these agencies and get them up to a level we're happy with. And just finally, if If there is, uh, if there are community members hearing this, uh, tonight, and, uh, they are feeling more vulnerable because of the kind of atmosphere around at the moment, um, what, what, do you have anything to say to them? Yeah, I, I would, I would ask them to reach out. As I said to the person I was speaking to today, we don't have the answers, I don't, I don't know the things, but I'll do my [00:06:30] damn well hardest to try and find those answers, and I spoke to two of our board members after that conversation, and I used the words, I am mad that I don't know The, the solutions to these problems, where we are a significant LGBT community group in Wellington, and we should know, I should know who the housing providers are, I should know who to turn to, and I don't. And so I've asked them to go out and find these things, with the aim of creating a website or a resource that I can point people to that has all of those answers [00:07:00] there. And I think that as a minimum, that's what we should be doing. Kia ora, my name's Gina, my pronouns are they, them, um, I'm a Green Party candidate for Mana this election, um, and we're currently at an event with Rainbow Wellington in Aotepehese. Kia ora, my name is Ricardo Menendez, I'm a Green Party Member of Parliament, and what genius said about where we are? Why was it important for you to be here today? I think it's a really awesome opportunity for, like, general rainbow people working in the public service, but similar spaces to come together, [00:07:30] but also of course it's election year, and as a rainbow candidate myself. I'm awesome to talk to other people who are, you know, working in similar spaces or just rainbow people working in their spaces as well about why it's important to vote generally but what we're proposing is the Greens as well. So as rainbow candidates, what are the biggest issues this election for, for rainbow communities? Hmm. I think, uh, supporting the rights of our trans, non binary, and intersex communities who are facing increased vitriol, [00:08:00] um, as a result of the rights and far right rhetoric is a priority for us, um, and that includes greater access to public services, but also, uh, ensuring that any legislation on hate speech actually includes some rainbow communities as well. Um, yeah, Taitoko Ricardo said I think also, um, the access to, um, healthcare and mental healthcare for our rainbow communities, particularly as we know, um, that a lot of us, particularly our younger ones, are experiencing poorer mental health outcomes, and also, um, ensuring that we all are having that livable income, that warm, [00:08:30] dry, safe home, that.. We need, because our rainbow communities often are, um, not exceeding in those statistics either. As, kind of, public figures, you're meeting a whole lot of people in a whole lot of different places. I get a sense that there's a lot of negativity around, kind of, particularly around, kind of, um, trans communities at the moment. What's the feeling that you're picking up from communities when you speak to them? I'll, I'll start by saying that, actually, a lot of the vitriol, um, like, we [00:09:00] have to remember that overall, and pulse around different places, I've shown that an overwhelming majority of people support our trans community, and it is, and it is a, a very vocal, and, and unfortunately, yeah, dangerous minority who are, who are driving that hate, and it is dangerous because it, it does result in violence. But overall, my experience campaigning is that.. People do support our rainbow community and our trans community, and they want us to be focused on how we can enhance their rights and improve well being for everyone. [00:09:30] So it's not a thing that's coming out in the election campaign, but it is concerning to see more and more politicians who are acting irresponsibly and wanting to make it a focus of the campaign. And that is the main concern around the lack of political leadership who are tapping into a, um, a minority who wants to divide us. Um, I think as a trans candidate myself, like, campaigning out in the community, everyone just sees me as another candidate and, you know, supports or maybe doesn't support me because of the green values [00:10:00] rather than because of who I am inherently. I think some of that, um, hate and that harassment and that stuff has particularly been online. Um, and, you know, with. Some changes in the leadership of certain social media sites, um, has become not so good, um, but I think that unfortunately it is, um, yeah, that vocal minority, but also a lot of them who are actually from overseas who are attacking us, not necessarily people, um, here in Aotearoa itself. So why did you both get into politics? Um, I got interested in politics, um, kind of my whole life, but particularly [00:10:30] got involved to the Make It 16 campaign to lower the voting age, um, because I was really interested in voting and I wasn't going to be able to vote. Um, and thought that we should be expanding that, um, that franchise, um, and then kind of over time decided actually if I want to see people with similar backgrounds to me, um, values to me in politics that I'm going to have to stand up and do it myself as well. Hmm. Uh, there probably wasn't a singular moment in time that, um, got me involved, but I do have to credit, speaking of politicians, speaking of hatred, um, Winston Peters comments around migrant communities. [00:11:00] throughout the years, I think, really make me, uh, want to become involved because the way that he spoke about our communities as a migrant myself, um, did not reflect my realities. And I did, I did feel that, um, uh, it was important that our experiences were represented, but it was also just rising inequality, having worked in hospitality for many years, um, just that feeling that there [00:11:30] was. There was a feeling of uncertainty based on political decision when it came to climate as well. In terms of rainbow issues, what are the things, if you do get into Parliament, what are the things that you will be pushing for? If you get into Parliament, I'm already there, so I guess that feels like more for you. Well, I mean, for example, we recently did succeed in putting an amendment to better protect rainbow people as part of the sports integrity legislation. And, uh, what that will ensure is that rainbow people [00:12:00] are and are Better represented in decision making board. And so that's one element where I do think we can Continue improving upon but I think there's also more that we can do to resource access to health care And that needs to be across the whole of the range of health care that is gender affirming so primary care but also secondary care and improving the competency of our health care providers so that if they serve the the By various rainbow peoples that exist in Aotearoa.[00:12:30] I'm really keen for us to finally, um, be prohibiting the medical intervention for intersex infants and also supporting our intersex community, um, more widespread. Um, even though I'm not personally a part of that, um, throughout Mahi, within the rainbow communities and working for, and working kind of adjacent to some of those spaces at the moment. Um, it's really clear that it, like, they've been advocating for a long time and actually we just need to get on with it. Um, and support them in what they've specifically been calling for and total with that in Parliament as well. And just finally, if somebody couldn't be here tonight and [00:13:00] they are just feeling a bit got at because of all the kind of negativity at the moment in the media, do you have a message for them? We have to remember that there's more than unites us than divides us, and, and I guess from, from our end, just know that the Greens are, are, are with you, and that, um, despite the few political leaders who are being irresponsible and, and spewing hatred, that there's also people that have got your back, and including people who are coming to this [00:13:30] event tonight, and so we will be working very hard to ensure that, um, um, Aotearoa continues to be as safe and as safe as it can be for our, um, rainbow people. Yeah, I would say that, you know, the Greens have currently do and then will continue to be supporting our rainbow communities. Um, and not only in terms of like words and the things that we put it out of and our manifesto and that kind of thing, but we've got people who have those lived experiences among our candidates, among our campaigners. Um, and it's not. Just [00:14:00] about what's happening out there. It's what's happening to us too, and we're really, um, yeah, concerned, but also supporting and wanting to push forward in those spaces as well. My name is James Christmas. I'm running for the National Party. I'm on the list. I'm number 28, and I'm here tonight representing the party at the public service. It's an event run by the Public Service Association and Rainbow Wellington. It's an informal event so that people can meet candidates and we can just have a chat. Why was it important for you to be here tonight? It's quite important to me that the National Party is actually represented at these sorts of events. Um, [00:14:30] we, uh, we haven't traditionally had a high level of rainbow representation, uh, even though we have quite a few rainbow members of the party, so I'm quite keen to see that side of our party emphasised, and to make sure, uh, as our leader, Christopher Larkson, he, he's said he wants to increase diversity in our caucus, and he means it. And part of that is Rainbow Diversity, I think. So why, why do you think there hasn't been so much representation in the past? Do you know what, I'm not sure there's an easy answer for that. I mean, if you look back through our history as a party, you can look back to people like Marilyn Wearing, back right into the 70s. Um, [00:15:00] you've got people like, uh, uh, Ven Young, who was the former MP for New Plymouth, I think, First person to try to, um, decriminalise homosexual, uh, do the homosexual law reform in the seventies and he failed. So you've had a bit of a liberal strand running through the party, um, but for whatever reason rainbow people just haven't bubbled up through to the top. So they're represented quite well in the party, but we have historically not had high numbers at the parliamentary level. Um, so I'm hoping to come in so I can bring my expertise in the law treaty settlements, but if I can also help, uh, to put another notch [00:15:30] in the wall in this regard, then that's something I'm looking forward to doing. So, what drew you to politics? Uh, I've always sort of worked on the sideline of politics. I used to work for, um, Chris Finlayson, who was the Minister of Treaty Negotiations, and then I worked for John Key and, uh, Bill English. I guess I just, uh, you know, I worked with some pretty good people early in my career and people who sort of get things done. Uh, and one thing I think is sometimes we talk about things too much and should just do them. Uh, so you look at treaty settlements, I want to see treaty settlements finished. Uh, I want to see law reform carried out. I think good governments are reforming governments, and [00:16:00] sometimes that's just putting your foot on the accelerator and doing it. And in terms of, uh, rainbow issues, what do you think the biggest rainbow issues are at the moment? It's a really interesting question, I mean, if you look back over the last few years and you look at the victories we've had, you look at things such as, you know, marriage equality legislation, that went through, I think it's now largely accepted, um, it hasn't been one of those issues that's carried on, um, I think, um, I look at some residual law reform issues, the big one's probably adoption, um, so the Law Commission reported on [00:16:30] that a couple of years ago now, it's been with the government, uh, that act was passed in 1955. Um, so we're dealing with law that's nearly 70 years old, and we're trying to apply it to a, you know, a world now which is completely different. Um, laws like that, I think, uh, are spread across the statute books, and they put roadblocks in the way of people wanting to get on with their lives. And I think a good government's a reforming government. You need to look at those. to look, are they putting, you know, are they putting roadblocks in people's way? And if they are, you need to change them. When we look back at some of the earlier [00:17:00] politicians like Marilyn Waring and Chris Carter, they had a really rough time in Parliament as being out themselves. How do you think it will treat you? So I mean, I was born in 1985. So one year before. The, um, the homosexual law reform. So, I've always been conscious that I have been pretty lucky in terms of the generations that went before me. That they went through a lot, so I've had a pretty easy run. In historical terms, I've had a pretty easy run. Now, sure, there's challenges and all that sort of thing that go with it. Um, [00:17:30] I think our parliament now is quite a different place. I don't go in there with any feeling of concern in that regard. Um, I'm conscious I'd go in there as, um, if I'm elected I'll probably be the only openly gay National MP. Um, you know, sh That doesn't feel like as big a deal to me as maybe it would have 10, 20 years ago. Um, so I go in quite confident, uh, in that regard. But I also, this is if I get elected, I'm not, I don't want to sound too certain, go in quite confident in that regard, but I also go in, you know, with the knowledge of those people who have had to go through those [00:18:00] struggles before and some of the stuff. You know, Marilyn, where, and Chris Carter, you hear these stories, you hear what they had to deal with, and it's only 'cause they actually stood up for themselves through there that I get to go in, in this situation now. Yeah. So who are your political heroes? Uh, so my, I've, I've got a few political political heroes in, uh, the National Party. So there's one, there's the, the. My main one is a guy called Ralph Hannon who I'm writing a book about at the moment, I'm writing his biography, so I'm, I'm trying to write it in a, uh, I'm writing it as an historian, and, and being as neutral as I can, but I do admire the guy, so he was our Attorney [00:18:30] General from 1960 to 1972, CMP for Invercargill, He had a conservative upbringing down there, but for whatever reason, um, he decided that the law should be liberalised to help people live their lives. So he was the guy who got the capital punishment abolished in 1961, despite the majority of the National Party being against it. He fought through and he actually got 10 National MPs to defect, including Sir Robert Muldoon, and vote with him to get rid of capital punishment. Um, he was another one [00:19:00] who really wanted, uh, to get homosexual law reform. Form done early. Um, there's a letter from him actually in 1967, uh, when he wrote saying that it's actually not a criminal issue and if he could do anything about it, he would, his view at the time was it was too early for him to be able to get the votes. So I admire those people who have gone on with their principles, um, and have fought as hard as they can to get progress. And, and actually when you think about what was happening in the late sixties and early seventies, the National Party were quite in support of, of law reform, weren't they? [00:19:30] So it was a real, I mean, the Holyoke government was a really liberalising time in general, um, and I suppose, um, when we had a first go under Vin Young in, I think it was 1974 to do it, and that failed. Um, so it's quite an interesting point. I mean, it illustrates to me people can come on a journey. So even Keith Holyoke was the Prime Minister, you know, generally quite a conservative, populist guy. Hansard, it's really interesting, where he says, I've spent my whole life really against this. You know, [00:20:00] the view they used to have, you know, the, the view that this is not something that we really want to tolerate in society. And yet, in the last year or so, thinking about it, I've realized, who am I to judge? So, to me, people like Holyoake illustrate that a number of our friends and colleagues are actually on a bit of a journey. And if you look at the party itself, you know, you look at Homosexual Law Reform 1986, John Banks, uh, One of our MPs I mean, if you go through Hansard, railing against it, I mean, just terrible stuff. I mean, John Banks voted in favour of marriage equality in 2011, so he'd been on a journey of his own. [00:20:30] My old boss, Bill English, voted against marriage equality in civil unions. He said when he became Prime Minister that it had been a mistake. So, I suppose looking at those people and working with those people and knowing those people, it does build a bit of a tolerance in you that some people are making their own journey. to destination. Um, I've always hesitated to write people off for their views even if I don't agree with them. Yeah. Currently there's quite a lot of negativity, um, around, particularly around, kind of, transgender communities, uh, both here and overseas. [00:21:00] If somebody was listening to this and they couldn't be here tonight and they were just getting bombarded with all this negativity, uh, what would you say to them? I think what I'd say is that I want politicians, regardless of what party they're in, um, I mean, I come from a tradition of, you know, I'm an individualist. responsibility, personal freedoms and rights. I think anyone, and our leader said this really recently actually, Chris Philipson, got asked about, um, I mean we're seeing some parties at the moment like New Zealand First is trying to stir up and make political issues out of this, so the first thing we do is completely [00:21:30] reject turning people's lives and identity into culture wars. You've seen what that's happening in the United States. We're much more pragmatic than that, and I'd hate to see us go down that path. But what Luxon said is that he doesn't want any New Zealander to be in a situation where they can't live their lives authentically and free from discrimination, and that's where I'm at on that. I hate to see people's identities politicised in any way. Um, that's just completely counterproductive. Kia ora, my name is Glen Bennett and I am the Labour Party MP for New Plymouth. I'm here tonight at a joint event with, it's [00:22:00] Rainbow PSA and Rainbow Wellington. And it's the election special, so we've got representation from the Green Party, from the National Party and myself from the Labour Party. Why was it important to be here tonight? It's important because the rainbow issues, although we've come so far in it's 2023, there's a lot at stake this election. You look at our inclusion and diversity that's That's gone in leaps and bounds in recent years, but in many ways, you come to an election and you see some of the rhetoric, some of the division, some of [00:22:30] the, uh, dismantling of some of the systems, uh, that are really important for our rainbow communities. Uh, so it's important for me to be here tonight, and I think for other candidates to be here tonight, uh, to be able to share our visions, our views, uh, but also to talk about what's at stake in terms of, uh, post election, depending on who gets into power. And when you say dismantling, what's being dismantled? Well, you've got things like, if you look at some of the ACT Party policy, when it's things like the, uh, Ministry for Pacific People or the Women's Ministry, you look at, you know, the Human Rights Commission, [00:23:00] things like that, which, which you might say, well, that's not a rainbow space, but the Human Rights Commission definitely is. That's something we've had to fight hard to, to be in. So in terms of dismantling of those things, uh, they're a challenge. But in that, saying all of that, I'm really hopeful that, you know, we've done a lot in this term. Uh, you look at, uh, you, you look at the, um, the banning of conversion practices, you look at the births Deeds to marriages. The ability of people to change their gender on their birth certificate. You know, you can see all these amazing things happening. And so it's important for me to be here tonight to talk about what's been, [00:23:30] but to be hopeful about what's to come for our community. What has it been like being an out rainbow politician over the last term? It's, I'm, I live in New Plymouth, and I'm the MP for New Plymouth, and I remember my first thing when, um, I was asked to run for New Plymouth, I said, you know I'm gay, right? I thought, like, I felt like, you know, is New Plymouth too conservative to have a gay MP? Obviously they, they're not conservative, because they voted me in. It's, it's been, uh, it's been liberating, and it's been empowering. I got to get married. in Parliament [00:24:00] to marry my husband, uh, just after I got elected. And for me, that was a really symbolic, uh, and I think it set me up for my term as a Rambo MP because I was standing in Parliament, a place that for more than a hundred years had oppressed us, and was able to stand there and to marry the man I love. In the halls of Parliament was really empowering to me, and I think for the last three years that's been, uh, front and center of everything I've done and realizing there's a fight to go. Like I meet young people and children still and teenagers at high school in New Plymouth [00:24:30] that are still afraid to come out, that still don't have those networks and supports to help them. So it's, that's always front and center in my mind in terms of policy we do and decisions we make. So what are some of the biggest issues that, that, that people are talking to you about in terms of rainbow issues? Uh, very much obviously the trans, uh, discussion. Uh, whether it be toilets, whether it be sports, uh, it's how do we actually make sure we include our trans community. That is really big. Uh, and then the other one is, I guess is around, um, health. and [00:25:00] mental health, in terms of, again, statistically for our rainbow communities, for our young people, for our older people, our mental health, uh, is, statistically we're far higher than many others, so that's been something else that's often talked about. I'm glad we put 4 million into this space when it comes to mental health, when it comes to supporting things like, in, um, Inside out and rainbow youth to ensure that there are the support networks around to help particularly our young people What are you most proud of? [00:25:30] 100% it is the banning of conversion practices. So I come from the Christian world. I was I was blessed, fortunate enough not to have conversion practice performed on me, but the fact that we were able to go through that and we were able to stand tall and strong through what was the most submissions ever made for any piece of legislation in the history of the New Zealand Parliament. And there was so much, uh, There was so much hate and, uh, awful rhetoric and fear mongering from [00:26:00] that. But the flip side, there was so much inclusion and love and support. And, again, for myself coming from the Christian community, uh, to stand tall, uh, as someone in the rainbow community, to stand someone tall who's in a faith community, and to say, we can walk forward together. And we as government can legislate to ensure that no one ever has to go through that abhorrent practice ever again. That's my most proudest moment. When you hear some of the just really nasty, uh, stuff that's happening at the moment in terms of, uh, people talking about [00:26:30] transgender communities, and, and more broadly the rainbow communities, um, what do you say to somebody that is kind of.. You know, somebody, what do you say to somebody in the rainbow community that's kind of taking all that in and just, it's, it's, it's kind of inside them, like, like, like, how, do you have any words of encouragement, I guess I'm asking? We've come so far. I look back to my eight year old self, uh, and, you know, I, I, I remember homosexual law reform, and the victory roll, and [00:27:00] the, the awfulness and the challenge, but it was actually the solidarity, and, and the coming together of, Of a strong rambler community that ensured that legislation like homosexual law reform was passed, like marriage equality was passed, like we were able to ban conversion practices. Those are the things. So, find your community. Uh, I always say to people, turn off or don't look at your comments on social media. Um, find safe places to go. You don't have to put up with, uh, prejudice. You don't have to be put up with being [00:27:30] treated badly. But you just must find your community because your community is out there and they're looking for you. But you need to put your hand up so they can find you to support you. Um, kia ora tatou everyone. Uh, ko Michael Gibbs toku ingoa. I'm Assistant Secretary Strategy here at the PSA. You're very welcome here. Uh, this is a great event for us to host. It's one of many, um, election events that we're hosting up and down the Mōtū. So, uh, uh, we're very pleased to have you here. Um, we are not [00:28:00] 80, 000 strong. We're 90, 000 strong as of last month. So we're in, uh, Aotearoa's largest. and we have within that our PSA group which is currently around 2, 700 members. So, um, we're pleased to again have you here. This is a great opportunity for us to hear from some of the key candidates from, some of the candidates from the key parties standing at the general election this year and thank you very much to the candidates for your [00:28:30] attendance. We'll ask you to introduce yourselves. Um, and there'll be, uh, the candidates are going to speak to you, uh, about their policies. Hopefully there'll be some time for questions as well. We do know that some need to get away promptly at 7. 15. So, uh, that'll bring a nice close to, um, to our proceedings. Just to say that this is obviously a very important election for, uh, Um, and this is an important election for [00:29:00] everybody. Um, we've made a lot of progress over the last six years, particularly most recently with fair pay agreements, which is finally a chance to improve standards, terms and conditions. across sectors of workers, which is hugely important and a big gap in our industrial relations legislation. So we, we have our own campaign this election, which is around a fair and progressive Aotearoa that we, we, uh, invite you all to support. But, uh, most [00:29:30] importantly tonight, we're here to hear from, uh, the candidates from, uh, we have Labour. National and the Greens here this evening. So, so again, you're very welcome and I'll hand over to Craig from Rainbow, uh, Rainbow Wellington to introduce our candidates. Thank you so much Michael and thanks to the PSA for, uh, hosting tonight. Um, it's really important, um, so Rainbow Wellington is a, uh, it's been around since the 80s. It's taken different [00:30:00] forms, different, uh, different namings, um, but The history of our group is we were right there, um, back with Fran Wilden, um, when we started doing homosexual law reform, um, and so it's been around a long time, and, um, we did a bit of a rebrand two, three years ago, um, so we've developed a new logo, um, and a new kind of, um, co papa for our group, which is just We want to just connect, uh, Wellington's rainbow communities together. And so one of those things was, [00:30:30] um, how do we reach out to our, um, many, many queer folk who are working in Wellington? Um, and bring them together. And so professional networking is a, is something that came out of that as an idea. Um, so we now run these and we've been running these for two years, um, different, uh, different industries, different workplaces, and so, um, I'd encourage you to, if you, there's some of these around on the tables, um, please have a look at them, we have, we are a member, a member organization, um, And so we, like, an individual [00:31:00] membership fee is 50 a year. It lets you come along to these professional networking events. The funds from all of that go into a grants fund, so we, all of us are volunteers. Um, the, the, but the grants pay for things like we've, uh, funded the youth ball, the, um, and there's some stalls for out in the city. So it all goes back into the community, so it's a really fun way of, um, meeting new people, turning up, having a few drinks, having some nibbles. Um, meeting. Great people, people that you may not have met before, and then [00:31:30] also knowing that you're supporting financially, um, some of the communities that actually can't afford lots of things, lots of these things, so that's really great. So please have a look at one of these pamphlets or talk to some of the board members that are around here tonight if you want to know anything more about Rainbow Wellington. Um, yeah, we're, uh, we're involved in, in, in also lots of things, we, um, do a lot of campaigns, so we're really at the moment, um, talking to, uh, I suppose the transgender community, saying what are some of the things that [00:32:00] are most, most required for you, and we know that they're under a lot of pressure at the moment, um, with some of the rhetoric coming out of the states, and so we really want to try and support that and do what we can, um, and, and a number of the things we do, um, um, Is to put the pressure on the, on the, um, on our MPs. So we do a lot of work with MPs in Parliament. We do a lot of work putting in submissions. Um, so please do, do speak to us if there's things that, um, you want to see changed around your city. We meet with the Mayor quarterly. [00:32:30] Um, so we do get, we get involved in lots of things and we, we get, you know, we're privileged to get access to a lot of the key, some of the key movers and shakers around Wellington. Um, so, if you're not here to listen to me, so I'll introduce you now to the candidates. Do you want to come up and join me, Glen, Ricardo, James? Um, great. So, what I might do first of all, um, what I want to do, I've, I've, I've got one question to ask them, uh, which I'll ask them in a minute. Um, I'll ask them to introduce themselves. Um, but what I want [00:33:00] you guys to be thinking about is that we're going to throw it open to you. We want you to ask questions, right? This is, um, and we're going to work in the popcorn way, so we don't know when popcorn pops. You just stick your hand up and ask a question. Don't even stick your hand up if you want to, just yell it out. It's quite alright. We're all relaxed around here. Um, but, um, what I'll do is I'll get you to, James, and you can start this. Just introduce yourself if you don't mind. A little bit about where you come from, um, would be great, so yeah, over to you. Okay, um, [00:33:30] well, uh, my name is James Christmas. I have the weirdest last name of any candidate, um, standing for election. Unfortunately, I'm not standing for a seat, I'm just on the list, so my name isn't actually on any, um, billboards. I'm standing for the National Party, I'm number 28, uh, on our list. This is my first campaign. Uh, I'm a lawyer based in Auckland, but I spent the first 10 years of my life down here as a, uh, public servant. Uh, so I spent a lot of my early career working for, uh, Chris Finlayson as Treaty Minister. Uh, and then I worked for John Key, uh, Bill English, did a bit of [00:34:00] legal work at some ministries and then headed off as a barrister. So I'm hoping, uh, if I am elected, uh, to Parliament, uh, one of the things I'm looking forward to is getting back down here to Wellington, uh, and being able to work with our, um, public servants again. Because I was very lucky early in my career to work with some of our best public servants. And that's where I learned really what I do. Huge respect for our public service and for the innovation that comes from our public service. And, uh, if I look back at some of the greatest achievements with treaty settlements, the genesis of [00:34:30] all those ideas came from people working in government departments. So, that's really important to me. Um, I want a productive relationship with public servants, uh, and a respectful relationship. Uh, should I return to other stuff later? Uh, yeah, yeah. Okay, I'll shut up now. Thank you. Welcome. Ah, kia ora koutou. Ko Glen Bennett tōku ingoa, and I am the Labour Party MP for the beautiful city of New Plymouth. Which stretches from Waitara in the north and all the way around to Opunaki, uh, around the coast there. Uh, this is my first term as an MP, [00:35:00] and looking forward to, uh, kicking off my second term in six weeks time. Fingers crossed. Um, I just want to acknowledge.. Um, in terms of the representation on our panel this evening. Uh, and although, um, there's three guys up here, just want to, uh, acknowledge, obviously, the diversity of this room and the div diversity of our rainbow whanau. Uh, and you look at Parliament, we are the most, uh, diverse rainbow Parliament in the world right now. And we're also 50%.. Uh, [00:35:30] male and female, and that's very much thanks, um, you know, I'll say the Labour Party, but let's say team effort, team, team effort from, from this side of the house. Uh, but for me, myself, uh, looking at a place like New Plymouth, you may think it is just this little tumbleweed town, uh, on the west coast of, of New Zealand. Uh, what possibly could, uh, how could they possibly elect a queer MP? Uh, but they did. Uh, because there are many roads that lead to Taranaki when it comes to, uh, issues, uh, of, of our rainbow communities. Uh, you look [00:36:00] back to the 1920s.. And our prison, uh, in New Plymouth was sanctioned through law here, uh, at Parliament just down the road for, uh, for the homosexuals, uh, and for the deviants. And that's where hard labour, they were, had hard labour there in New Plymouth through law made in this place here in Wellington. Um, secondly, uh, the first, uh, person to die of AIDS in New Zealand, uh, was from New Plymouth, uh, in 1984. Uh, and it's a horrific story, uh, in terms of, of, of the challenges we had. [00:36:30] Uh, at that time, and I think still we do have around prejudice, uh, but in New Plymouth. So there's, there's many connections and places, and often people say to me, why do you still wear the rainbow badge, or why do you still sort of speak so strongly about rainbow issues? And that is because we still have a lot of work to do. Uh, when I go to our high schools, uh, when I'm out and about in New Plymouth, uh, there's still fear, there's still prejudice, uh, there's still, uh, there's, there's still treatment, uh, of many of our communities, uh, that isn't okay. I'm a member of the Labour Party because [00:37:00] as an eight year old, I remember, um, going through the process of homosexual law reform, not knowing what was going on within my own internal self, but knew something wasn't right in terms of what was going on externally, not internally. Uh, and then again, when it comes to things like marriage equality, when it comes to those types of things, the Labour Party has always been at the forefront of diversity and change. And so I look forward to continuing to serve. And open up the spaces and places that we can live our best lives and the next [00:37:30] generations coming through. Uh, don't have to go through what many of us in this room have been through. Kia ora. Um, kia ora koutou. My name is Ricardo Menendez March and I'm your, uh, one of your Green MPs and I'm your Rainbow spokesperson for the Green Party. I'm based in Tamaki Makaurau, Auckland, and I'm a migrant from, uh, Mexico as well. It's been a pleasure to serve as a Green MP this term, and what I've gotten to see in my time in Parliament has been that while we do have the queerest and most, uh, [00:38:00] I guess that's when we use, like, gender binary balance, like, um, uh, there's still a lot to do. Um, and why I'm in the Greens is because It's at a time when hate towards migrant communities and rainbow communities, we have the tidiest and cleanest track record and voting in parliament for the rights of rainbow communities. And I think that sets the foundations really, really strongly, um, for us to continue that Mahi. And for me as an MP, it's all about making sure that we're working at the [00:38:30] intersections of different communities and, uh, acknowledging that, um, there is diversity within our rainbow communities and, um, and that we get to have, for example, um, And the Greens, well, we may have, uh, like, we started a term with like 40% queer people. We get to have, um, openly non binary or trans people in our caucus, and so there's more work that we can do. Um, but I think what I'm really proud that we've been able to do in this term of parliament has been to also, um, Put pressure on our Labour colleagues, um, to improve the [00:39:00] rights of, uh, rainbow athletes, and particularly at a time where hatred towards trans athletes is rising, um, I was really stoked that we were able to, um, strengthen some legislation around that. And so keen to continue that, Mahi, and this election's going to be really, really important because we have a few political leaders who are stoking the fires of hatred and fear. But I know there's more of us and there's more than unites and divides us. And I think the trade union movement and our community organizations to serve the remote communities are in a good position, um, to ensure that we continue having [00:39:30] a progressive government. Thank you. Right. Thank you very much. Um, we're just going to turn up the temperature a little bit and ask you some questions. Um, Gareth is sitting down here and he's recording everything, and I, and I like this because it goes on public record, right, so we can, we can go back to the website, we can find out what you said and hold you to account, so this is good. Um, so one of the questions that I think is there are, um, there are lots of things that we think, uh, are issues for the LGBT community, and, [00:40:00] and you guys are potentially going to be our leaders, um, representing us in Parliament. So I'd like, um, for you, and maybe we'll start with you, Ricardo, and we'll come back this way. But what are the, what are the, what are the top, top issue or the top thing that is in your mind? for the LGBT community, and if you're re elected, what are you going to do? That's a big one, but I think, I mean, like I said, I'm, I'm really concerned about the increased visibility of hateful rhetoric towards, um, our trans community, [00:40:30] and I think part of, um, what we need to do is to.. do is a range of interventions around having fit for purpose hate speech legislation that includes our rainbow people, um, having, for example, in this, in the realm of sports competency around, um, rainbow people resourcing our rainbow organizations will also be key to that because they're the ones who are at the forefront doing that mahi and they're doing it on the smell of an oil rack and there's far more we central government can do to support our rainbow organization. So I think Um, Prioritizing the groups that are [00:41:00] currently feeling, um, the hatred, I think is key to ensuring that we're actually serving, um, all of our member community. It's interesting, and thanks Michael and Craig for hosting us tonight, and everyone here. Um, but Michael, you mentioned around, you know, the, the trade union movement and, you know, workers rights in terms of what's at risk this election. Uh, but also I think very much it's around diversity, uh, and it's around, uh, inclusion. And I think that's really, I think what Ricardo [00:41:30] refers, you know, sort of alluded to in terms of for myself, uh, how do we continue to build diversity? Uh, I've thought a lot about, uh, what it would mean, uh, in terms of, of having a, a rainbow. We, we throw things around like a Rainbow Commissioner, or a Rainbow Ombudsperson, or we throw the thing around, or a ministry, but I actually don't think, I actually don't think a ministry would be right, personally. I'm trying to figure out how it could be. Where we have some kind of rainbow representation across all government agencies and departments. Uh, how that could actually, uh, be checking over, [00:42:00] double checking what comes through. Um, when it goes upwards and when it comes downwards through that. Um, I haven't landed on yet how it could be. I need to think about it over the next six weeks. Nothing much else to do. Um, so, I will continue to think on that. But I really am strongly about how do we ensure those rainbow voices. are there because it is around the diversity, inclusion, and bringing those on the margins in. And often, um, yeah, for me it's how do we actually support that, how do we fund that, um, but how do we be creative about how it looks? Um, well [00:42:30] this answer might be a bit dry, um, I'm quite, I'm a lawyer, I'm quite interested in law reform. Um, I think we've got a lot of law reform that could be done on a pretty non partisan basis. Uh, the major example for me is the Adoption Act. Uh, 1955, Law Commission's looked at that about two or three years ago now. I really want us to put our feet down on, foot down on the accelerator, is that the metaphor? And actually just get some of this stuff done. I mean, the Law Commission looks at these issues, they receive a lot of submissions, and I acknowledge Rainbow Wellington as well, and the submissions you make to select committees, [00:43:00] which are really important. I really want us to have a good look at the statute book. We're governed by so many old laws, I mean you go back to Covid, those initial lockdown orders were made under the Health Act 1956, no wonder it got a bit messy. Go back through, look at where the barriers are, the barriers in legislation that have put it, you know, when we go through a 1950s lens, which wasn't necessarily looking at two dads or two mums or whatever, why is it still there? I want us to go through, almost take a stock tape. Go through, find the barriers and get rid of them. And that's solid law reform work to it. [00:43:30] Yeah, great answers, thank you. Um, okay, so, have you guys, has people out, anyone got out here um, questions, are we preparing questions? Simon? I've got a question, it's not really Rambo regarded, it's more about, um, Small community, local, uh, media outlets and radio, uh, what do you know of them and what would you do to support them? I'm happy to start. So I was prodding, um, Willie Jackson, actually, the Social Services and Community Select Committee around this. I think we could, [00:44:00] central government could resource them better. And having worked with, um, Planet FM, for example, and other radio stations, um, including, like, Coming from the Latino community, like, I acknowledge that for smaller communities, they actually play a key role in, in, um, disseminating information, particularly in non English languages, and, like, with many organizations, they do it on the smell of oil dragons, so I think, um, Changing the funding, like, reviewing the funding mechanisms is key and that's something the Green Party has supported for quite some time.[00:44:30] Because we do believe in strong public media and community radio stations, including student media, plays a massive role in that. And we continue to invest heavily in Access Radio across New Zealand, which I know very much can be niche and that type of thing. I think in the last three years what you saw with the 50 million that went into, um, particularly local democracy reporting, has actually been significant. Uh, and is actually, I think, like, for example, in New Plymouth, we now have a local democracy reporter. Their one job is to report local democracy, which is, you [00:45:00] know, what's on the tin and what's in the packets, all the same. And I think that, that's actually shown that it actually can work. Um, that fund has now ended, so what is it, can we, what is it we can be doing around funding, um, Taranaki. Uh, where we are smaller, uh, and you turn on the radio on Wednesday morning in your car, and you basically are listening to Auckland or Wellington. Um, how do you actually, how do we actually change the nature of that, uh, and I think something like that local democracy reporting and other funds would actually support that.[00:45:30] Uh, well I mean, I am just a reasonably low ranked list candidate, and I've been warned that if I start announcing policy on the hoof, it's a good way to end my career before it starts. But we, we will have a broad.. I didn't announce any policy, Well, I mean, we will have a full broadcasting policy out before the election, but let, let me say, and, and speaking in general.. Uh, terms, you'll see no disagreement from me about the importance of local reporting, especially, and I come back to the legal side, uh, when you look at reporting on [00:46:00] issues that won't necessarily pull in all the apps, you know, like we, we need what's happening in our courts, in the, in the local papers, we, we need, we need, uh, local, well funded local radio stations. I mean, all I would say is that speaking from my position of no influence over this area at all, uh, I would certainly. favour, uh, a system which takes full account of the importance of local media. Great, thank you. I saw another question, yeah. Called Sarah Toke Engua. So you've mentioned working with [00:46:30] schools and both athletes, but is there initiatives or talk about the minority rainbow group, such as the homelessness, Pacifica and Māori? I think, yeah, worth, worth acknowledging that, um, our rainbow community, and then if you do intersections between like, um, Takatapui and, um, Pacific Rainbow groups, like they are disproportionately affected by homelessness. I know Marama has been working to, um, [00:47:00] as part of her home associate, um, housing role to try and divert some funds to organizations that may work specifically with rainbow people. I think a huge part of that is also about. reforming the welfare system. And I acknowledge that, for example, within MSD, there's been some efforts and some spaces to create greater competency. And it's about building upon that, because there's things like the way that, um, even we have our relationship rules in the work and the income support system that I think actually are anti queer in many ways [00:47:30] and, uh, box people in incredibly heteronormative, uh, ways of living. And so I think this interventions we could do in the income support system while also just beefing up the work that community organizations are doing on the ground to, um, create competency within the public service. And as what's been said, yeah, work with Marama Davidson around that, particularly the homelessness action plan, uh, around acknowledging in terms of, you know, rainbow young people are particularly high in terms of homelessness. Um, secondly, last year we put in, I think it was just over 4 million, uh, in [00:48:00] funding into our school system around and side out. Uh, and Rainbow Youth, uh, and Taranaki again, sorry to keep talking about Taranaki, but it's a really cool place, come and visit sometime. Um, and it's, uh, again, to support actually the work on the ground working, um, at the Coalface with, you know, young takatapoi, uh, trans, non binary, intersex, uh, and our gay and queer community. So there is work being done in that space, uh, and there's.. Um, I mean, look, totally acknowledge the [00:48:30] importance of that. It's all very well talking about these issues in the round from, from, from Wellington, but if we actually want to get results on the ground, we have to work with the people who are at the, the cold face, work with the NGOs, the people who know the challenges that people are facing. Uh, so I think you will see, uh, from us, if we are in, you will see a, uh, more of a, an emphasis on working with those NGOs, um, I'm not going to bore you all going on about our social investment approach, but actually looking at the data on the ground, looking at who you're dealing with as people and trying to target those, those results, so I totally accept [00:49:00] your point. that we need to know the challenges that are being faced by people on the ground. James, I'll just, um, point out one thing. So today I received a phone call from somebody who was wanting to move somebody to Wellington and they were a transgender person with some, um, mental, mental health issues and, and I was trying to think who are the people on the ground and the problem is that they're so under resourced they don't even have a phone number. And They don't answer your Facebook pages. They've got nothing. So [00:49:30] you you're gonna try and find the people on the coalface. They're not there. They need resourcing first to actually make them be there. Um, so I you know and you're gonna go out and you're gonna try and find these people to talk to they're not there. Because they're too busy working their asses off trying to trying to help the people that they can they need a resourcing first And then you can make them. Got it. Totally hear that. Any other people got a question? Yeah, Joe. So this is around surrogacy in New Zealand, which might not be [00:50:00] queer related, but it does affect a lot of queer people who want to have children. Um, so New Zealand's surrogacy laws do not currently recognise the intended parents of a child as the legal parents. There's a whole legal battle and everything that goes on. Um, so they actually have to adopt the baby after it's born. So, as um, Justice Minister Kiri Allan has said, this process is discriminatory, uh, causes unnecessary harm, and stress, and reflects how outdated the system is. Is there anything that's going to be done to [00:50:30] fix that for anyone, including queer people who want to become queer? Yes, and the work is being done right, well the House has just risen this afternoon, but the, so Tamati Coffey had a members bill, uh, completely around this, uh, this piece of legislation that has to change, and must change, um, head to go and adopt. His own baby a month ago, uh, back in the Rotorua. Uh, the awesome thing is that, yeah, we've now picked it up. So now it's government, uh, legislation we're working through. So it's currently sitting, uh, I was on the health select committee [00:51:00] recently, and we had a conversation about it when it was Tamati had it, but it's now come through as a government piece, and so the Health Committee will continue that work, and so it will be passed into law, um, as long as, uh, that Labour is in government in the next term. And it's halfway there, so we're really close to it happening. But I hope we can get cross party support, eh? Of course! Of course! Um, no disagreement for me, I mean, that's the sort of thing I want to look at, I mean, why should the law discriminate in that regard?[00:51:30] Yeah, I just, you mentioned about looking at people who write policies, so across the public service where queer is being considered and I'm just wondering whether you guys have heard of the cross agency rainbow network and whether tapping into that Has come across your mind. I mean, as an MP, for example, I mean, I do, especially in the Rainbow portfolio, I do try to tap into as many [00:52:00] groups as I can, I think. But to the earlier point around setting a ministry, like our position is that we do need a ministry that serves specifically the needs of Rainbow people. And why I was disagreeing a bit with what Glenn was saying is that, I mean, we do have ministries for other population groups. And it is about having that designated structure that can then actually work across. Um, other parts of the public sector to just have that lens applied. Yes, we could be building greater competency across the, like, you know, the public service, but it's. In my view, it will never be as strong as [00:52:30] building the in house structure. But yeah, keen to engage with that network as much as we can. Acknowledging I carry like ten plus portfolios. I went to, recently, to the first, um, It was the first Pride at MSD event. They had a full day training and it was their first time, you know, MSD, Ministry of Social Development, had built this part of their group. So I think.. Yes, um, can I talk to you afterwards just to kind of find out a bit more, and so we can kind of lock that [00:53:00] in. Yeah, I mean, I've been out of Wellington for the last few years, I'm not across the work that's been done, but certainly interested in hearing more about it. Great, thank you. Um, one of the things there, there, there around, um, Um, they're around here for another, at least another half an hour, um, and I want to give you the opportunity to kind of have a good conversation with them before they run away. Um, has anyone got a burning question that they, they must ask or can they just ask it to them direct? Yes. [00:53:30] For our national, um, candidate, um, with kind of recent talk of, um, of potential coalition partners at, or New Zealand First and their kind of homophobic, transphobic dog whistling thing. Is that something of concern to you? I mean, I think the first thing I'd say is, I mean, I'm only able to talk in my capacity as a National MP, right? So, I mean, we all see what's being said by different parties. We're all going to have our views on those. Potentially very strong views on them. [00:54:00] Uh, all I can tell you is that, for me as a National candidate, and also for our leader, Christopher Luxon, who was the one who encouraged me to stand, Uh, you will see an absolute commitment against any of that rhetoric, and you will see an absolute commitment that we don't want to see this country, uh, turn into a situation like we've got in the States, with people's identities being caught up in culture wars. Uh, yep, completely aware of the concerns about what some other parties are saying, uh, but, you know, I can only, I can only plough on as a national [00:54:30] candidate. Can I just add onto that, because I mean, just, um, you may need to talk to some of your current MPs. When we were going through the sports integrity legislation, I mean, it was really concerning, right, that like. There were sitting National MPs who were pandering to the, um, transphobic rhetoric and I think to me what it is really important is, and I hear you, you know, take your point about it as an individual, you've announced that, but it does need to come at a political leadership, um, level and, and I do want to say that it is It's like, it is one of those things [00:55:00] that one of the most meaningful thing a political leader can do is just actively denounce it, um, and, and because otherwise we're just ceding space to the hater generic. And I do want to say that polls around the world do show that there are minority of people, but the more political leaders. Seed space, the more that hate can grow. Um, so yeah, I encourage you to talk to Louis Upton, um, and Melissa Lee potentially around some of this . Um, yeah. . Um, before we get into a bit more of a debate than we want to, I just wanna say thank you very much. Um, [00:55:30] James, I've been doing these sort of events for, as I said, four, five years political events. Mm-hmm. , and this is the first time someone from National's showing up. So, can I, can I say one quick thing on that? Yeah. So can I say it is really important for me that the, the National Party of, and look, I've been a member of the National Party since I was a teenager. I was a nerd at school and I liked Jenny Shipley for whatever reason, . So, um, it was basically pull me in, but so many jokes I know , um, that it is important to me that national is here. And, um, I think that. Yes, um, I hear what everyone else is saying, [00:56:00] but at the same time, I want, uh, people to know that if there is a national government in, that at least people can see themselves represented, uh, somehow in there. Um, we should be turning up at these things. Uh, I acknowledge that we haven't done amazingly, uh, with the rainbow representation in the past. Um, I just got asked before, I was trying to work out who we had. You can talk about Marilyn Wearing, you can talk about my old boss, uh, Finlayson, you can talk about Paul Foster Bell who's here in Wellington Central. Um, the party itself, uh, especially with our younger members, we have a [00:56:30] number of rainbow, rainbow community coming through. Uh, but as a, one thing really, uh, that made me decide to throw my hat in the ring, having said I'd never ever go into Parliament, and made this uncomfortable step of going from the back room to standing in front of you, um, is that that's important to me. Because I don't want us to be sitting out there left behind by the, as the world moves on. So all I can do is turn up and listen. Great, thank you. Um, and, and to Glenn and Ricardo, you guys have been holding this space and fighting, and, and so I, I, you know, [00:57:00] um, am really thankful. We had, we had an event at, um, in the Rainbow Room, and I remember the, you know, just reflecting on all of the MPs who are current and thinking, wow, this is fantastic that we've got this massive group. Um, and so thank you for what you've done for us in the last, um, in the last term and, you know, wish you all the best, wish all of you all the best for the election. Um, Yeah, but thank you very much to you two particularly for fighting for us. So yeah, thank you. Can we give them a round of applause?[00:57:30] So I am a policy advisor with the PSA and I've also been for the last little while organizer of Out At PSA. Which is the network for LGBT plus people within the PSA. Um, and we're at a joint, out at PSA, Rainbow Wellington, drinks, meet the candidates, type event. Um, just before election 2023. Why was it important for out at PSA to organise an event like this? Often times union work is very much about, you know, [00:58:00] fighting for things that you are under threat about or, you know, being Um, trying to achieve social change, which can be quite serious. And so, sometimes it's nice to just socialize. Also, nice to be able to build relationships with other organizations within the kind of LGBT community. Because, um, I think, you know, like, talking to people here today kind of made me realize, oh, we could be sharing stuff in terms of submissions we write, and that kind of thing. Um, so that we're all kind of stronger [00:58:30] in supporting each other. And you don't form those kind of relationships unless you have events I, I was, I was really impressed to see, um, the three candidates. So we had a Greens, we had a Labour, and we had a National. And just thinking, you know, like, maybe 15, 20 years ago, it would have been very hard to be an out MP, but, but now it seems a lot more, um, available as a, as a kind of career, yeah? Yeah, so, yeah, most, um, rainbow friendly parliament ever, right? Well, not rainbow [00:59:00] friendly, but like, the most rainbow MPs in a parliament, so. I guess, yeah, that would have been unthinkable a couple of decades ago. Um, I hope it stays that way. Or, you know, we get even more representation because, um, I always thought that this kind of progress was a given because it's always been like that throughout the time that I've been out myself. Um, but the last year or so and seeing events overseas made me realize that it's actually not a given. It's not always progress in one [00:59:30] positive direction. It can actually just all.. Fall apart. And so I think, yeah, so I think it's, I'm really hopeful that the next parliament is looking like the current one in terms of representation, yeah. So in terms of your, uh, out at PSA membership, have you, have you, um, sensed that there is a bit of a, um, a feeling of apprehension in terms of the negativity that's happening at the moment? Yeah. Yeah, our committee met just last week and that was one [01:00:00] of the things we kind of talked about is that kind of rising climate of tension and Yeah, just kind of hate everywhere. We also, like we had someone from Inside Out come to talk to us and they talked about how they had just, you know, been getting more and more abuse and kind of threatening stuff in their email inbox all the time. You know, it definitely seems like it's on the rise. So what do you think can be done about it, particularly like from organizations like OutUp PSA? [01:00:30] I think, uh, not standing for it. I guess being loud and outspoken and not just trying to be respectable and hope that if you're respectable enough people will keep being nice to you. You know, like I think, um. From what I see overseas, there's, uh, it seems like, you know, there's a, the people who want to be respectable and have the approval of straight people are [01:01:00] willing to throw other parts of our community under the bus, um, and it won't save them in the end. So I think for, you know, it has to be the entire community all sticking together and showing solidarity.

IRN: 3641
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1107364
TITLE: InsideOUT Kōaro - Navigating the hate
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VOICES: River Ayto; Tabby Besley
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2020s; ACT New Zealand; Aotearoa New Zealand; Brian Tamaki; COVID-19 (coronavirus); COVID-19 denial; COVID-19 lockdown; Chantelle Baker; Christchurch terror attack (2019); Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC); Destiny Church; Drag Storytime; Family First NZ; Freedoms New Zealand; Gender Minorities Aotearoa (GMA); General election; General election (2023); Gloria (Greymouth); InsideOUT Kōaro; John Money; Manawatu Lesbian and Gay Rights Association (MALGRA); Michael Wood; National Schools Pride Week; NetSafe; New Conservative Party; New Zealand First; New Zealand Labour Party; Official Information Act (OIA); Posie Parker; Posie Parker counter protest; Rainbow Youth (Tauranga); River Ayto; Sam Duckor-Jones; Sean Plunket; Tabby Besley; Telegram Messenger; The Disinformation Project; The Platform; The Warehouse; Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); Transgressive transitions (research, 2023); United Kingdom; United States of America; Vision NZ; Walt Disney Company; Wellington; Winston Peters; access to health care; anti-COVID 19 vaccination; broccoli tattoo; conspiracy; discrimination; disinformation; drag; education; election; emotional; facebook. com; fascism; free speech; funding; gender diversity; gender education; gender identity; gender ideology; groomer; hate speech; indoctrination; internet; marriage equality; misinformation; online harassment; police; puberty blockers; public toilet; queer joy; queer straight alliance (QSA); reproductive rights; rural; school; school curriculum; social media; sport; trans; trans woman; transgender; transphobia; transphobic violence; twitter. com; youth
DATE: 29 August 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: InsideOUT Kōaro, Anvil House, Level 3/138 Wakefield Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: Tabby Besley and River Ayto talk about the rise of hatred directed towards InsideOUT Kōaro and rainbow communities, since the visit of Posie Parker to Aotearoa in March 2023. In the interview, River refers to The Disinformation Project's research paper Transgressive transitions.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Kia ora, I'm Tabby Besley. I'm the Managing Director here at Inside Out Koaro. We're a national charity with a vision for all rainbow young people to have a sense of safety and belonging in their schools and communities. Kia ora, my name is River Ato. Um, I am the communications coordinator here at Inside Aotearoa. So this interview has been inspired, well I'm not sure if the word inspired is the right word, but um, there has been um, quite a significant increase in kind of anti rainbow sentiment in [00:00:30] Aotearoa New Zealand over the last six months to a year. And so I thought this would be a great opportunity for us to um, just talk about that and how that's affected. And I'm wondering, um, initially, uh, can you describe when you first became aware of the kind of ramping up of negativity? Um, yeah, I think in general, um, alongside the COVID pandemic, and I guess the, the sort of rise in kind of disinformation, [00:01:00] um, uh, online, particularly around, um, the vaccine and mandates, there was already a kind of coalescing of, um, kind of transphobic and anti rainbow, anti trans points of view within those communities. But I think that, um, uh, following The kind of dropping of the mandate and the parliamentary protests, the arrival of Posey Parker to Aotearoa earlier this year, um, really, um, uh, coalesced [00:01:30] that those communities, uh, people who had been impacted by kind of disinformation and those kind of anti vaccine, um, movements, um, around, uh, this kind of imported, uh, cultural targeting, targeting. transgender and rainbow people. Um, so yes, a particular increase in that kind of content and harassment targeting our communities following her arrival in Aotearoa, um, over the, the, the weeks and months following. But [00:02:00] yes, more broadly throughout the kind of course of the pandemic. Yeah, I think particularly last year, we started to see more kind of headlines and things happening like the, um, the arson of Rainbow Youth and, um, the graffiti on, um, Gloria, which is, um, the pink church, um, in Greymouth, um, by artist Sam Ducker Jones, who's actually now on our team as well, which is very cool. Um, . So yeah, we started to see that. And obviously the increase, um, particularly in the UK and the us, um, around [00:02:30] anti rainbow and trans and drag kind of laws and, um, the kind of turf transexclusionary, radical feminist, um, I don't know the, I don't wanna say movement, I don't wanna call it that, but you know, like the, the firing up of that. But it was, Yeah, for us specifically in terms of when we started to be targeted, it really was in March, um, when just pretty much that week that Posey Parker came and then for kind of the months following. Yeah, and I think that [00:03:00] that in part results from the fact that we, I guess, I played a public role in trying to challenge the immigration minister's decision to allow posy Parker into the country. So we are part of that judicial review process, but then also, you know, made an effort to really support and uplift our communities during that time period. Um, and that garnered a lot of attention on social media. And I guess also naturally because of our work in schools and with young people, um, we're kind of [00:03:30] uniquely vulnerable to, to the kind of cultural war. Talking points that, that are fear mongering about, um, kind of quote unquote gender ideology in schools. And so all that kind of heinous accusations of indoctrination and, um, the impact of our work on, on young people kind of made us a prime target, I think. So you mentioned two physical examples of, um, the arson and the defacing. And I'm wondering, can you take it a step back further [00:04:00] and, and think about the, the kind of, um, online. Um, amount of negativity. Could you see a rise in that prior to those physical attacks? Personally, at least from the lens of Inside Out, until March, we pretty much have never experienced any hate or harassment online. Very, you know, it's 11 years and I've been here that whole time, dealing with it most of the time. And that's, it's.. [00:04:30] I, you know, I can't think of any examples of how rare it would have been. Like, there was one time where I got an email, I think, I can't remember the detail, um, and it became a media story because actually the person who sent it from their work email was like a real estate agent and he'd seen me on TV and called me a faggot or something like that. Like, It's, it was so rare and then from March it became like just an overwhelming amount and kind of daily. I think more broadly for our communities definitely we've seen that rise in transphobia in [00:05:00] particular online over the last few years. Yeah. I mean, I know that we've also been targeted by, um, TERFs in Aotearoa with sort of kind of malicious OIA requests regarding our kind of work in schools. Um, but I guess, yeah, the kind of the growth of, um, kind of, yeah. The growth and presence of TERFs, um, online, and I guess internationally, because of the ways that the internet is so global, um, and so kind of interconnected, [00:05:30] I mean, obviously, with the rise of, of those kind of, yeah, yeah, the kind of global transphobia that was definitely impacting, um, Our communities here in Aotearoa in online space. Um, but I think that a lot of that came sort of internationally, um, rather than locally. So, so do you think it was, um, kind of initiated internationally or is it just that the international material is feeding into what was already here. I think both. Um, obviously if [00:06:00] you look into the, the kind of, the money behind people like Posey Parker, we're looking at, you know, CPAC and big conservative, um, kind of lobbies and organizations in the United States. Um, there's definitely like a lot of money in general behind the kind of, the, the rise in sort of, Transphobic, um, kind of legislation and politics in the United States. I mean, there've been various leaks of, of, of email showing that this was like a coordinated effort to, to make this a kind of key wedge issue, um, over the past few years. But [00:06:30] I think that, yeah, here in El Tirodor, yeah, it's, it's probably connected with the kind of, Yeah, more of the kind of conspiracy theory space of people who are already kind of vulnerable to beliefs about kind of, um, dark forces at play in the society. Um, and I guess, you know, being primed with, with that already being in community often, you know, Facebook groups or kind of telegram channels, et cetera, where people are kind of sharing that stuff. I [00:07:00] guess that that sort of probably bled in a bit more organically, but it's also true that there have been kind of, um, actors who have specifically coordinated, I guess, perhaps taking it and are taking advantage of that, you know, Brian Talmachy and Destiny Church being one example, Sean Taubaker, Sean Plunkett, other people in the kind of broader far right Disinformation space. And then obviously now Winston Peters, New Zealand first and the ACT party, um, as well, [00:07:30] kind of courting those communities. So I guess where my point of view would be that there's a kind of, yeah, there's international money and sort of quite organized campaigns to make this a issue that have been imported here, both organically and deliberately. And then You know, there are political actors and people who, who see that, yeah, this is potentially a source of mobilization, um, for various reasons. [00:08:00] So in terms of who is being targeted, in, in terms of the communities, are, are there specific parts of the communities that are being targeted, or is it a kind of a more of of rainbow targeting? Definitely. Trans people, trans women, are more targeted particularly with conversations at the moment around like, um, trans women's participation in sports, um, whether trans women should be allowed to use women's toilets, these kinds of [00:08:30] things. Um, often, often that's the center of the conversation. So, yeah, so definitely, um, trans women and trans people. Um, Drag has been a big, big target, particularly, um, you know, there's been events disrupted where people are doing drag story times. We held a drag artist panel that was, um, yeah, received a lot of, um, attention, negative attention, those kinds of things. But it does expand to our broader rainbow communities as well. And a lot of the, [00:09:00] a lot of the stuff coming to Inside Out is some of it. is around us as an organization. There's a lot of, um, you know, the same kinds of language and things that was used against people, to the best of my knowledge, during the homosexual law reform being used, um, to describe anyone connected to our organization and, um, the, yeah, the work that we do with schools and young people in particular. So, um, yeah, I'd say definitely there's specific targets, but [00:09:30] it does affect everyone more broadly too. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think that, yeah, the kind of tropes that we're seeing recycled have definitely been historically deployed, you know, in the United States and in Aotearoa, you know, around the kind of Section 28 stuff in the UK. Um, yeah, and it's definitely not limited to trans people, but I think that these, yeah, the kind of.. people stoking these fears and [00:10:00] targeting trans people have the broader aim of kind of expanding and targeting our communities and we're already sort of seeing that as kind of trans trans rights and sort of access to health care are being targeted and um, banned and rolled back in the United States. We're also seeing like the rollback of kind of reproductive rights and, you know, challenges being made to kind of, yeah, the parental rights of, of other rainbow people and potentially, you [00:10:30] know, marriage equality down the line. So it's all connected, but definitely trans people are being specifically targeted. And the organizations that are supporting communities like yourselves, are there other organizations you're aware of that are also being targeted? We work closely with a lot of the other organisations and I don't think anyone else has seen, um, is receiving the same. level or, or kind of what we, what we are seeing. I know Gender Minorities Aotearoa has also, [00:11:00] yeah, has also received, um, yeah, some stuff probably particularly, um, closer to March when we were all kind of in the media around trying to prevent Posy Parker. Um, I think they don't have as much of an active presence on social media and they don't do that work in schools, which has kind of made us that unique, um, target. Um, recently we're aware of, um, Malgris, I think the longest running, um, gay and lesbian association in the country, um, in Palmerston North. They, um, had a drag story time, um, event interrupted just last month, [00:11:30] I believe, or a few weeks ago, where, um, the people involved have also kind of owned firearms and have threatened them, and it's, yeah, kind of escalated. There's been some good wraparound support in their local community, um, yeah, aware, I think, of other kind of library events and, and drag story times in particular being targeted, but, um, I think a lot of it is, is, um, Um, not so much targeted at organizations beyond us, it's more broader, this attack on, yeah, particularly trans people and, um, [00:12:00] that's, yeah, playing out on kind of social media and in the media itself, just the amount of, um, yeah, headlines and that kind of thing. So, so the kind of, um, uh, attacks you're getting on, um, Can you describe what they're like? So give me examples of where they're coming from and what kind of stuff is happening. Yeah, so on Facebook. Doing a kind of cursory look through the kinds of accounts that have been engaging with, yeah, [00:12:30] generally responding and reacting to just normal social media posts of various kinds, whether they're talking about legislation or advertising events. Yeah. Sort of making comments, telling us, you know, just to stay away from children. Um, you know, calling, calling the work that we do kind of in indoctrination and gender ideology. Um, definitely. Or. Um, I guess on the more extreme end, the kind [00:13:00] of, yeah, accusations of, of kind of being groomers or pedophiles, we saw more of that on Twitter. Um, yeah, we've sort of effectively made the decision to kind of, yeah, really limit our posting on that platform because just, yeah, especially with the changes to the platform, um, in recent months, since Elon Musk took over, you know, the sort of safety and the ability to sort of exist, like. On Twitter without being really targeted by harassment. Um, yeah, it has gone away. [00:13:30] Um, yeah, the classic, yeah, the classic groomer lines, but yeah, I guess also, yeah, other bits of sort of disinformation. Um. Yeah, kind of comments about, you know, who was funding, who is funding you telling us that we're kind of like this labor party, you know, funded or asking questions about that sometimes, perhaps in good faith, sometimes, you know, not so much in good faith and taking a look at the kind of people's profiles, um, it [00:14:00] seems like, yeah, disproportionately Pākehā middle aged, um, parents, mostly women. Hmm. Not, not all, um, I've sort of biased towards kind of rural communities and people who tend to have posted, um, you know, content, um, about, you know, sort of vaccines suggesting that they are already kind of in kind of anti vax or conspiracy theory movements or, uh, [00:14:30] kind of, yeah, coming from a kind of evangelical Christian, um, kind of faith based lens, which we already know is entangled. So yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah, Facebook and Twitter seem to be the places where we've been most targeted. In addition to that, we had like, I guess, a handful of kind of voicemails that were just kind of harassing us. There was one like, threat to come to our office. It didn't eventuate into anything, but we had to make a report to the police around that one. Um, [00:15:00] and yeah, just kind of saying some of those same things. Those appear to be from men. Um, we have also, I guess, Yeah, what we were speaking to is more the kind of individual social media comments. And then we, um, yeah, have, as you kind of alluded to, been also targeted, um, in terms of OIA requests for all of our government funders. Um, so all of our government funders have received OIA requests asking, you know, what money. We get what, what for, and that came from Voices for Freedom and Democracy and Z2O2. [00:15:30] Um, you know, um, fringe conservative attempts at political parties. Um, or, I can't remember, one of them sent something and one sent the other. Um, and, and particularly for our, the work that we do with, um, in schools. There's also been really thorough OIA requests trying to get a lot more information about that, asking things about. You know, puberty blockers and things, which isn't what we do. Um, yeah, so that, that was a different level of attack because that [00:16:00] also takes up our resource having to go back, you know, work with the government to, like, respond to those, look at, is there any information, you know, for example, in our funding report backs that might be actually a safety risk to release to them and so on. Um, we also had, um, we had a Disney, um, Um, pride fundraiser with the warehouse this year that supported our school's pride week campaign. And so the warehouse was selling, um, you know, things like Mickey Mouse, rainbow socks, um, and 5% of the proceeds went back to us to [00:16:30] support our school's pride week campaign. Um, and so they got hold of this. Someone made a poster saying it's the labor, the labor government's inside out. It's funding puberty blockers through the warehouse. Like, you know, it's really, um, taking it and. Yeah, creating this dis this hype and this disinformation that then people would engage with, um, and that got a lot of attention and then Brian Tamaki jumped on it and was in the media, well, he did a, uh, a sermon, I think, or whatever you want to call [00:17:00] it, something, um, speaking about how the warehouse, uh, um, giving out puberty blockers, um, and what that was about. He was getting at is that they're fundraising and giving 5% of some Mickey Mouse rainbow socks to it's like But that became the whole thing in the media and the warehouse received a lot of harassment So they call centers were kind of inundated during that time There's stuff getting harassment and so on and so for that That creates these extra concerns for us of like, or if our funders are also being attacked, is that gonna, are they gonna want to partner with us [00:17:30] again, just not because they wouldn't support the work, but just because that creates extra work or, you know, if their staff are having to go through that. So, we're yet to, I guess, sort of know the outcome in that particular relationship, if that would change whether or not they partnered with us again. Um, but it does make you worry. Um, Yeah, about those, those things when you know the extent of, if it's not just reaching us, it's, um, yeah, it's getting to them. Um, Yeah, so those are some of the types of ways that [00:18:00] we've kind of been under attack. Um, and particularly right now, it's moved on. I think in, when it, things really started in March, it was in direct response to Posey Parker's visit, and kind of this general, just attacking anything we put out for a while. Um, it's just every, every post, didn't matter what it was, there'd be negativity generally. Um, and in the last few months, it's really more around.. Um, relationships and sexuality education in school, the pushback to that and teaching anything to do with gender diversity in schools. Um, [00:18:30] there's also been a lot of, um, mis and disinformation spread about what our role in that is. So there's, um, People saying that, you know, the Ministry of Education funds us millions of dollars, that we, um, we are responsible for the curriculum, these kinds of things, which we're not responsible for the curriculum. We currently don't receive any funding from the Ministry of Education. The, um, the curriculum that people are talking about is this new curriculum that we've introduced or whatever. It's actually just the Relationships and Sexuality [00:19:00] Education Guidelines that were updated in 2020. So it's, there's just so much, yeah. The truth is not being told and people are really, um, believing it. And then the election cycle that we're currently in just makes it even more dangerous because political parties can then jump on that to, yeah, to put their two cents in or, yeah, it becomes an issue in public meetings and so on. People will ask questions about it and there's a lot of, yeah, potential harm to our communities there. [00:19:30] You've mentioned, uh, posting on social media and I'm guessing that, uh, you, you moderate those posts so that most people wouldn't see those responses. But how does that affect the people within Inside Out who are having to moderate and see all of that material? I mean, yeah, it definitely takes a sort of significant and kind of cumulative emotional toll. I think that. Um, I [00:20:00] guess there's sort of three of us, Tabby, myself and our operations and engagement lead, um, who are kind of most on the front line of kind of moderating, deleting, blocking comments and so, so on. But I think that, um, yeah, I mean, we try and do that as quickly as possible to get them off blocking people, deleting comments. We know that the traditional reporting mechanisms on the various social media platforms like don't work then and they certainly don't work if they do work, they don't look fast enough to [00:20:30] protect like our communities who might see them from them. So, um, yeah, I think that it from an organizational point of view, it wastes a lot of time and energy that. We could better spend actually doing the, the work to support people. Um, and then, you know, in the cases where we get comments that sometimes it's strategically better to kind of put a response out to having to kind of make those judgments and assessments, how much kind of debunking or pre bunking [00:21:00] do we do? I mean, even just like the strategic considerations take time and energy and I guess a kind of constantly Evolving or we're kind of constantly evolving But I think that trans people and our communities if we're online generally are being exposed to this kind of stuff everywhere all the time at the moment. So it's also a broader context in which we're all aware of what's happening kind of in the space [00:21:30] and what's happening in the United States and in the United Kingdom. And I guess that in general costs, I kind of. PAL and it kind of takes its emotional toll, especially when we have to show up to do this work. And it matters to us and we want to support people in our communities, but it's also, we're part of those communities too. So yeah, I would say that it's definitely had an impact on our staff and it's had an impact on our capacity as well. Which is partly the goal of it, you know, honestly, [00:22:00] yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think particularly it was, yeah, sort of mid March to July. It was almost daily that we were getting things. And I didn't mention to also, of course, the hate emails, the people that don't put it there, but they send it directly. And again, these. Some of those kind of people trying to naive inquire, ask about your funding and things, but you know, you know where they're coming from. Um, and we had a lot of emails and attack, particularly in our school's pride week, again, in an organized campaign to try and stop schools from taking part in [00:22:30] that as well. So yeah, there was lots of emails too, during that time. Those we would report to NetSafe and yeah, on social media. For me personally, I think in my role, as a sustained person as well, I was really. Yeah, trying to prevent our wider, like, team or our communities from having to see those comments. But it also meant that I felt like I couldn't shut off or, like, be away from my phone during that period where it was constant. And I'd remember, like, you know, [00:23:00] Saturday morning waking up and pick up my phone. Oh, all these things have got to quickly switch into that brain and delete. I remember one Friday night in bed where this guy, I was just, I turned my light off, I was going to bed and my phone lit up. And it was this. This guy posted something on Facebook and at that time on Facebook, on the mobile app, you couldn't block someone. And I just deleted his comment. 20 minutes went on where he would go to another post, he'd post something, I'd delete it. I just wanted to go to sleep. It would just keep going. And so in the [00:23:30] end I had to like, get out of bed, go to my desktop computer and, you know, block him. Thankfully now they've introduced it, you can just block someone on the mobile app. Um, but it was just like those things of like in your downtime, not being able to fully switch off and feeling like you. Yeah, we still had to be like monitoring that, um, we've since learned some great things like you can actually turn Facebook posts, um, comments just to people that follow you. And so that's, since we've done, put things like that in place that, um, helps prevent people from [00:24:00] commenting cause they don't really want to have to like your page unless they're, you know, that extra level of committed. So, um, which some people are. Yeah. Yeah. But at the time, I think as well, because we hadn't experienced anything like it and we were. It was very reactive and just in the moment and you're, it's not the focus, you're doing a million things and we were actually trying to respond to the needs in our communities at that time. Um, and, yeah, so we went. Maybe thinking as, um, smartly as we could have, but we're just kind of living in that. And yeah, it definitely took [00:24:30] a toll. And it wasn't actually until it really stopped that I noticed the difference and how I was feeling of like how much it had been kind of impacting me. Um, and for a lot of our, our team and like, yeah, our wider communities, it's just been such a, such a difficult time. And it is hard when it is your, like River was saying, it's, um. Yeah, it's in the media and everywhere you're constantly engaging with, and then it's also your job to deal with it and so on. So it's a lot. And we're really hopeful that we won't [00:25:00] see anything quite like it again. But that feels unfortunately unlikely. Yeah, I mean, and this, you know what we've anecdotally experienced ourselves individually and as an organization is backed up by the disinformation projects research, which showed that Following Posey Parker's visit, there was a genocidal rise in both the nature of and like degree and volume of kind of, yeah, transphobic rhetoric, rhetoric [00:25:30] targeting our communities and that Yeah, there are kind of clear connections between some of that and, um, yeah, kind of broader white nationalist fascist, um, kind of organizing and, and, and groups within Aotearoa New Zealand. So yeah, it's kind of, yeah, it extends beyond, yeah, beyond. Yeah, like rainbow communities and it's definitely connected to the rise in kind of anti Māori rhetoric that we're seeing also. Um, and then, you know, for our communities that exist at the [00:26:00] intersections of being rainbow and Māori or rainbow and not Pākehā. Um, you know, those impacts and vulnerabilities compound. Yeah. So how many people do you think you've blocked on social media? I think I've probably blocked at least 50 people on Facebook, if not more. Um, I guess that, yeah, I went through a period of kind of mass blocking because I thought that, you know, once a critical mass of people are simply [00:26:30] removed from the page. I mean, and also, I guess, yeah, recognizing that people who have been vulnerable to disinformation from like a mental health and well being point of view. Like actually not good for them or their communities either. If they are kind of constantly being, I guess, yeah, yeah. Showing content from us that like is triggering this kind of reaction and this desire to, to respond and to share and to fuel these cycles of outrage. So yeah, I was sort of taking [00:27:00] the approach of it's a bit of all people involved to, to like, just actually. Remove that from their social media spheres. And some very dedicated people have like created new accounts, but I think in general, some of them may not have realized, but yeah, a 50 plus, but then also, you know, odd comments that we've deleted here and there without blocking people. Most of the time I would just, cause I'd usually, I'd be doing something else that would come up on my phone. I just delete the comment and then if they came back, I would block them if, if I could, if it wasn't on my phone. [00:27:30] Um, but. I would usually just delete the comment because I didn't want anyone else to have to see that as soon as possible. Retrospectively, I wish we had done a bit more, um, data collection. I have, like, a few things screenshotted that I particularly thought was funny or, like, later in the piece I started to do that. But, um, like, there was one that, um, just, this wasn't actually on our page. And that's another thing, I guess, this was also, like, these conversations about us were happening in other spaces. Um, particularly, again, some of those, yeah, more. [00:28:00] Um, like the New Conservatives, they love to hate us as well, for instance, Family First, those other groups, so, Um, there was one that called us, um, described inside out as the Addams Family, and I just thought that was quite funny, actually. So I took a screenshot of that one. I was like, I don't think our team would think that's a bad thing. Um, that's, maybe that's a compliment. Um, we also had, like, Sean Plunkett doing, oh, and this, oh, what's his name? I can't remember his name. It's gone from my head. Some guy who did this, um, investigative journalism piece [00:28:30] for, um, the platform. Kind of on and so on. It was all, that was I think where some of that stuff about, oh, they get all this money from the Ministry of Education and stuff. I was like, hardly anything in it was. True, so he's not a very good investigative journalist. Um, and, but they were also making it personal, so like, they were making fun of how some of our staff listed their star signs on their bios on our website, for example, and making a whole joke about how, oh, no one at the organization has any qualifications. They just think that having star sign is like, whatever. Um, [00:29:00] so. I don't know where I was going with that, but just, just the, yeah, the layers of it. Um, but it would've, retrospectively it would've been really interesting to actually really capture the numbers and what, what all of that was and look at things. But obviously we were just, um, in the moment reacting, hoping no one else would have to see, see that. Do you think you can actually have a conversation or debate with people who are sending those really negative comments? I mean, are they wanting to engage like that [00:29:30] or is it just something else? No, I mean, I don't think that there's much research that supports the efficacy of engaging with people who are kind of coming from that place. I think particularly if they're coming from a place of kind of, yeah. Yeah, if that place is being informed by mis and disinformation, yeah, ignorance about our communities, and if it is kind of hateful, threatening. Yeah, we know that that even presenting sort of [00:30:00] facts to people in this kind of situations like doesn't do much to sort of change their opinion and that it's it's driven by. Yeah, kind of a much more emotional place and Yeah, I think if we've been built up to be this kind of scary threatening force in the society There's really nothing that we can do or say to change people's opinions So yeah, yeah, I don't think that we've ever really taken the approach of even trying to like really actively counter it [00:30:30] because sometimes even trying to counter it can actually just further spread the disinformation and yeah I guess we're sort of in the Process of trying to figure out what the best practices are in terms of dealing with it strategically. But, um, Yeah, I guess we're, we're sort of taking a community care point of view primarily. So just trying to protect our young people and our communities from seeing it. Um, yeah, and then trying to, yeah, trying to convince people who aren't already down the rabbit, down the rabbit hole, like, that our [00:31:00] communities, like, need support. Um, and we probably think that that's where, like, we're more likely to get that solidarity. And yeah, I think, yeah, foremost, we're an organization for, for young people and for making a difference for them. And so, yeah, we want things like our social media to be a safe and positive where possible, you know, like a place or not for them to have to, to see it there. Um, but inside out so much of our work is about education. So we do so much work going into workplaces and so on. A lot of those people are parents or they'll hold a [00:31:30] range of views. So that's a space where we. are able to, yeah, give good quality information and have a conversation, um, but I, I think, yeah, most of the time online it's just not what people were, yeah, therefore it's not possible. The few times we would engage would be things like, for example, we'd post a job ad and someone would, um, ask, like, do you have a child protection policy because everyone's calling us. Yeah, I'm saying that we're inappropriate. Someone else is commenting saying that, you know, the, um, do you have to be [00:32:00] attracted to minors to get this job and horrible things. So, so in that instance, we, yeah, we would respond because that's a chance to, to be like, yes, of course, all our staff have to, you know, we have a child protection policy, they have to be police vetted and so on. Or we'd have, um, These tended to be more private messages. We got quite a few because there was a whole, um, One week, one week, there was a whole thing about how Inside Out thinks John Money is a hero, um, and they, that he should be taught in schools and, and so on. And so we had a few concerned people messaging saying, um, you know, like their [00:32:30] family had sent them this and they didn't think, you know, they wanted to check directly with us, was that true? Or, um, those kinds of conversations. Um, or exactly what do we.. So, if it seems like someone's coming at it with a place of actually wanting to check the information, or like with good intent, then usually we will reply, but usually that's more in a private, um, So, so you mentioned earlier about some of the, the physical manifestations of, of the negativity, and I'm wondering, how do you, how do [00:33:00] you judge when, when, when you see stuff online, and you think, oh, this is actually, veering into either a physical, um, something physical that might happen to the organization? That's a great question, and it's been a big worry, I think, for us. Um, I think in the back of a lot of people in our community's mind is what happened in Christchurch, um, to the mosque, um, shooting, [00:33:30] and that we don't want, obviously, anything like that to happen to anyone again. If that happens again, it feels like our communities would be, would be targeted and it feels like this rise that we're seeing online could very well turn into that and that has been, yeah, terrifying and really horrible to exist with that kind of fear and especially in roles where you are. Responsible for like events or other people's, you know, Oh, I really try not to think about it because it's just, it's [00:34:00] just too, too much, I guess. Um, but it, it does, um, mean for instance, that we haven't published any in person events. We haven't published the locations kind of since all this has been going on, um, that, you know, events, um, like in an advisory role in a kind of rainbow human rights conference at the moment. So we, um, We had to bring that conversation to that organizing group and sort of talk about security and so on for the event, because this would be bringing all the [00:34:30] people together and that kind of thing. So, um, it's unfortunately a very real consideration in people's minds. So far we haven't, apart from sort of the drag story times, um, that some libraries and groups have been involved with, we haven't really seen anything, um, eventuate physically, which is a relief. Um, but it's. Yeah, it feels so scary and you just, you just don't know. Um, so yeah, when we did like receive that. Voicemail [00:35:00] seemed mildly threatening. We can't take that lightly. We have to make sure that we're, um, And so we did do things like, okay, make sure that, you know, if there's only one or other people not on the floor, make sure we're locking the door if you're working in the office alone. And, um, the police have tracked down who that was and Where they are and those kinds of things. So it's, yeah, it's really horrible considerations that we unfortunately have to be, um, having right now, which, yeah, just adds a whole nother layer and can also make people quite hypervigilant to, um, [00:35:30] just in the work. Uh, we should also acknowledge, uh, River has gone to, uh, another appointment. So, um, uh, thank you River, much appreciated. Um. I just want to talk about, uh, possibly the reaction you've had, uh, in schools and in terms of, um, how have the Queer Straight Alliances and schools reacted to all this kind of negativity that's been going on? Hmm, [00:36:00] um, I don't directly work with the, um, With the QSAs in my particular role, so I probably wouldn't be the best place to comment on it. Um, I know that, um, for example, a guidance counsellor recently asked us, like, you know, where the, uh, young people in their QSA were asking about where can they go to see positive representation and positive media on trans people, because everything's so negative right now. Um, yeah, and just kind of wanting that. Um, we've seen [00:36:30] quite more broadly. Next response from schools, I think, where, um, we still, you know, we work with so many schools. We have schools coordinators in every region of the country that do amazing work. In some regions, we, I think, have seen a bit of a pullback at the moment of schools being a bit more hesitant to engage and the pressures that are on them right now from, um, parents, yeah, I guess particularly in those more, like, regional or rural areas. Um, on the flip side, there's.. Probably schools that are, you know, wanting even more to, to combat [00:37:00] and are really on board and wanting our support to, to help them deal with those things. So it's, yeah, it's a bit of a mixed, um, situation. We were really pleased to see with Schools Pride Week that despite the organized kind of attack to stop it going ahead in many schools that we still, um, you know, had our most successful year. Yeah, I think it was.. Oh, I might get it wrong. I want to say 360, but apologies if that's wrong. Um, schools taken part with over 60% of New Zealand secondary schools. So, um, we were really, really pleased with [00:37:30] the results. Um, and we're currently, I think, sort of doing the evaluation and we did ask this year in our, in our evaluation, did schools experience, um, you know, what pushback did they experience? Did that effect change what they did? And we think that for some schools, unfortunately, it did mean that they didn't go up maybe as all out as they wanted for Pride Week or that kind of thing. But, um, For the most part, it didn't seem to stop schools from taking part, um, but there will always be that piece that we don't know, [00:38:00] um, of those schools where that someone did get an email and it didn't become a conversation, but, um, That garnered quite a lot of, um, public attention, uh, in terms of, you know, faith based communities, uh, really, um, pushing for, um, schools pride not to happen. I mean, were you, did, did you ever kind of think that that would ever happen? Was, had that ever crossed your mind before? Yes, I'm trying to remember. [00:38:30] Um, I don't, I think we've definitely seen, um, some pushback to it in the past, but just nothing on this kind of scale. I think we'd, yeah, definitely, but probably more in like individual schools where actually the schools may be saying that they didn't. I don't think the community was ready for it, or putting blocks into it, I'm trying to remember. Um, definitely groups like the New Conservatives, Family First, would have previously probably put things out and been opposed to it. But, um, yeah, it was just a lot, a lot more this year. You know, there were template [00:39:00] letters from various organizations that, for encouraging parents to email their principals or board of trustees to not take part, um, and that kind of thing. Yeah. One of the things I've also seen online is when, uh, resources that, that your other organisations like Gentrip Minorities Aotearoa have produced in terms of like visuals or audio or written stuff that is then kind of exerted and used, um, [00:39:30] against you. How does, like, how does that make you feel? It's frustrating, isn't it, when people take things kind of out of, yeah, out of context or use them against. I think that's where the example about John Money came, where we have a resource with some ideas for curriculum and we talk about, you know, teaching about, um, The history of intersex people and communities and, and actually how, um, John Money kind of introduced corrective surgeries and the fight, the long fight [00:40:00] from intersex communities for bodily autonomy, like our resources, something like that. Then these people, they twist that into inside out should be. Thinks that school should be teaching about John Money, a pedophile. They think he's a hero. All of this, which is completely, you know, actually no, we we really don't think that, um, we are on the same page as you probably. Um, so yeah, it's, it's really, um, Frustrating. I actually read something just this week where, and I think this is something too, that because it's, it's like the build on of different movements, it's not just the [00:40:30] kind of faith based people. It's also these like conspiracy theorist type people. It's also the kind of TERFs and active transphobes. So there's a piece. Um, I think it was from, um, resist gender education. Um, A blog post that I hadn't actually seen at the time, but about Schools Pride Week, um, this week, and it included talking about how the activities on our website, such as doing rainbow baking or coloring, um, are also problematic because they're introducing, um, you know, [00:41:00] sexuality, pride flags, symbology to children and so on. And I was like, and you know, I know a lot of the people behind those groups are actually lesbians. And I was like, how, like, it just blows my mind. Like, I just don't understand. And I think particularly with the city. It's like young people are going to be accessing this information regardless of whether it's taught in schools or not. If they're not getting taught it in schools, then.. They'll be hearing it from their, you know, their peers, from their families, from the [00:41:30] internet, um, potentially, yeah, accessing really harmful material. And I remember young people continue to, yeah, feel alone and isolated and have these terrible mental health outcomes, which is hysterically kind of what has happened. So, I just can't understand the logic behind, um, this idea that we shouldn't be teaching about these things in schools. One of the things that really concerns me is that, um, uh, you know, so to begin with you've got, um, smaller groups of people being kind [00:42:00] of anti, but when it crosses over into, um, larger political parties or movements, so like Destiny Church, New Zealand First, um, and it starts really seeping into kind of mainstream consciousness. I find that really concerning is extremely concerning. And yes, in the last few weeks, we've got New Zealand first coming out with press releases about, you know, making, um, Six [00:42:30] segregated spaces or bathrooms and issue and it kind of for the election and so on. And thankfully the other parties, the major parties have responded to that kind of shut it down quite well. But then it already means it's now conversation. It's something for people to to debate or like that then goes into, you know, people's homes when that's in the media and they start to have conversations about it and so on. So it's it's very harmful. And it's obviously right now. Everyone's very concerned for the election and what that could mean for our communities. [00:43:00] Has all this stuff, has it changed how Inside Out operates? Uh, for instance in creating resources or doing workshops or just even internally? Um, largely no. I don't think it has in many, in many ways. I think, um, we're very.. Proud of the work that we do and we know why we do it and we know that it does, you know, a good job for the most part and that it's really [00:43:30] important and we're not going to let, um, haters, you know, stop to that. So that's what people would, would like. Um, definitely there would be some changes, whether those are just, um, Temporary things. So, for instance, during, um, some particularly bad period of that hate, we did things like just removed our team page off the website. So all of our staff were, you know, so people couldn't actually go and see our names and pictures of our staff during that time just to try and prevent, um, [00:44:00] that kind of hate going wider than just the couple of us that were receiving it in the organization or that in case people were being targeted just because we didn't know what was going to happen. Um, thankfully, that hasn't yet. That hasn't been in We were able to kind of put it back up and, um, so on for our workshops. That's one where we, we have introduced some new things because, um, we've also seen an increase in, um, I guess, what's the right word? Just some more difficult situations coming [00:44:30] up in the workshops that we do, um, for schools, government agencies, workplaces, businesses, um, community organizations, maybe where people are. Um, coming in already with kind of ill intent. Maybe they've sort of been made to be there or, um, or so on. Yeah. So we've had, um, a few incidents that have not been ideal to say. And so if we're putting in place a bit more of an expectation and agreement, um, for organizations [00:45:00] before we go and deliver training of what. Um, yeah, what we expect and how we'll deal with it if there is any, um, thing that might make our facilitators unsafe in that space or that is, is just not appropriate behavior. Um, so that's something we're currently kind of putting in place. Um, we have got like internal, I guess, incident reporting. So we're really encouraging staff. They are experiencing things like that, even if it is just, yeah, uh, Something in a workshop or so on to be, um, letting us know so that our, our ward and [00:45:30] our, our wider, um, organization, we're aware of how often and what those things are so that we can put appropriate things in place as needed to kind of mitigate risk or protect our staff. We've spent, um, a wee bit of time, well actually we've spent a whole interview talking about some of the negativity that's happening over the last year or so, um, and I think actually it would be really nice to end on some positivity. Um, so, I was wondering, um, what have some of the positive responses been [00:46:00] to this horrible time? I guess one thing that really strikes me is, is the counter protests to Posey Parker, um, in March. And particularly, yeah, I was here in Wellington in Civic Square, and it was incredible just to see thousands of people, um, turned up in support of, um, trans people. You know, already, as well, knowing that Posie Parker had left the country and she hadn't even made it to Wellington and people still showing up to show their support. Um, and I think there was only two, kind of, anti [00:46:30] trans people there who didn't really get, um, get the time of day. It was quite funny, so, yeah, that, that was really beautiful and I heard from a lot of people. Um, young people and generally in our communities, the, the power that had, particularly, um, some of the things young people were saying was that they knew like in their online spaces and in their friends that support for them existed, but in kind of that wider society, they, they didn't know how many people in New Zealand supported trans people until they saw whether they were there in person [00:47:00] or they saw in the media, the reports of the thousands of people that. Um, and particularly people noticing that, you know, a lot of those people were there as allies, they weren't part of Rambo communities. And, um, yes, I think that was really, really, really powerful. Um, and yeah, gave people a lot of, um. Yeah, and it was, I think, fast to doing the judicial review against the Minister of Immigration at the time to prevent Posey Parker from coming while that, um, we had this interim [00:47:30] order to try and stop her from being able to catch her flight. Well, it didn't go obviously how we wanted and she came. The, um, the judge's ruling was actually really positive and it, um, yeah, would encourage people to go and have a read of it. And it's really clear that actually, um. You know, he, you know, the minister could have made that decision to stop her that we had, you know, brought the case properly that it did. Yeah, raise this question of, um, yeah, I guess of.[00:48:00] That sort of idea of like free speech versus when you're actually causing harm with that and so on. So, um, yeah, that was, that was quite powerful and a win for us that we hope may be useful in the future. Um, whether that's for us or for other groups to, to have those comments there. Um, and I think. Um, the, I'm just thinking, I guess, yeah, I guess the final, the final thing I'm thinking about is sort of the queer joy, um, [00:48:30] amongst particularly our team here at Inside Out and our wider, wider communities and those moments where we've been able to lean into that queer joy. Um, and so in May we came together for our, um, for an in person staff away and we don't get to do that very often because most of us are in other parts of the country, um. And more recently, we had our Shift Hui in person, and both of those times where we all got to come together, be together in person, in a queer space, and just be together, um, yeah, was really rejuvenating and just, yeah, beautiful to have those [00:49:00] connections of queer joy, um, and, and silliness, um, I will, I will say it at, in, um, In May, um, seven of us went and got broccoli tattoos together. Um, it was, it was wild. There's now an eighth one. We know there'll be more. And, um, I'm currently planning to do, um, hopefully in Pride next year, a broccoli themed Queer Joy art exhibition. And this, this whole thing, it's a, it's a story in itself. Um, but, it's, it's been how we can like, [00:49:30] um, How together, like, we can just create that community over something that, you know, maybe didn't have that meaning before or, like, can be quite silly. Um, and I realize how this will sound if any of the anti people who have been talking about this interview listen to this and they're like, what, broccoli? Broccoli tattoos? They are as weird as we thought they were. But, um, for us it's.. Yeah, it's just been beautiful experiences of connecting with each other, um, and finding the joy in those moments where we can in a time that is actually, [00:50:00] yeah, been so, um, so challenging. And for many of, many of us, it's not, um, we haven't. Quite lived through something quite like, quite like this. It feels different to like for me when I think back to the time of like marriage equality, this feels quite different and a lot scarier, if that makes sense. So, um, yeah, you've got to, got to find those moments of joy and times to kind of shut out everyone else and just be a bit silly.

IRN: 3636
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/elizabeth_kerekere_farewell_from_parliament.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004946
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1107361
TITLE: Elizabeth Kerekere farewell from Parliament
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alofa Aiono; Bella Simpson; Elizabeth Kerekere; George Parker; Lainey Cowan; Megan Brady-Clark; Tabby Besley; Tahlia Aupapa-Martin; Tīwhanawhana; Val Little; Will Hansen
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Alofa Aiono; Aotearoa New Zealand; Arconnehi Paipper; Bella Simpson; Elizabeth Kerekere; George Parker; Georgina Beyer; Gisborne; Green Party; Hone Tūwhare; InsideOUT Kōaro; KAHA Youth Hui (2007); KAHA Youth Hui (2009); Kazam Youth Hui (2011); Kerry Peipi; Kickass Wāhine Crew; Lainey Cowan; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Megan Brady-Clark; Member of Parliament; Napier; Ngāti Kahungunu; Parliament buildings; Scorpio; Shift hui; Tabby Besley; Te Awa o Mokotūāraro (river); Tūtira Mai Ngā Iwi (waiata); Wellington; Wellington Pride; White Chapel Jak; advocacy; ecological wisdom; farewell; indigenous peoples; indigenous rights; intersex; legacy; legislation; lesbian; maiden speech; non-binary; political impact; politics; social responsibility; takatāpui; transgender; valedictory speech
DATE: 16 August 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from MP Elizabeth Kerekere's farewell event held at Parliament on 16 August 2023. A special thank you to the organisers and participants for allowing this to be recorded and shared. A stereo recording of the waiata can be heard on this page.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Can, can everyone hear me? Yeah! Alright, come through, please come through, come through, take a seat. Um, I know it's a little bit different from the maiden speech. First and foremost, thank you to all the Purple Power people who have come to support, um, my wife, Dr Elizabeth Kerekere, and her final hoorah, um, here in, in this place. Te whanau whanau, love yous a long time. Um, and to our families and close friends, thank you. [00:00:30] So those who went to her maiden speech, we had lots and lots of people, it's a little bit more intimate today, but we're still going to spread news out, um, and because there's been the flu bug, and people have been responsible, and have messaged in. Saying they don't want to bring their bugs to this place. Yay! And so they've stayed home and they'll send in purple energy. So those who've made it, we appreciate it. Um, if you haven't got your waiata words, um, grab a folded bit of paper. Um, don't [00:01:00] worry if you can't sing, just move your lips. Um, Te Whanau Whanau have got your back. Um, what's going to happen is that eventually, those stickers that I gave you, um, has a, should have G and a letter, either A, B or C, um, Kerry and myself and maybe some other ones who know their way around this warren, will call a section and will take you through to the gallery to get you seated. Um, I'm looking at them, they're still speaking, awesome. Um, [00:01:30] Elizabeth is scheduled to speak at 5. 45, however, if the house business is running ahead of time, they will just roll in and get her to speak. Um, hence the reason why we appreciate you guys coming in early. Um, we know that we've had people travel from Auckland who have had delayed flights. People who've travelled from Invercargill, Nelson and Dunedin and Christchurch, um, we appreciate that. I myself travelled from Gisborne via Napier. I had to drive to [00:02:00] Napier and get on a plane, but I'm here. Um, and what we're going to do, we're going to listen to Elizabeth's speech and go, wow! And then we're going to file out and we're going to come back here. We're, we're gonna take some photos, um, we're gonna get a group shot, there will be some nibbles, okay, nibbles not a feed, nibbles. That's emphasised to my family. Um, so there will be some nibbles, but there will also be an f poss bar. If someone wants [00:02:30] to shout me an alcoholic beverage, um, but there'll also be, um, free, um, lemonade, juice, and, um, Coca Cola for the non drinkers. That's on Elizabeth and, and I. Um, but alcoholics, buy your own. Um, what else? And then, so you can mix and mingle, there'll be a slideshow of.. We have the fabulous Elizabeth just going on loop, and then we have one of her favourite cover bands, Whitechapel Jack, who made it [00:03:00] on a delayed flight from Auckland. Um, they will play a few songs for, um, us to have a bit of a boogie. And then we'll wrap up, and those who want to go and have.. Um, the feed, uh, there's the Thistle Inn, which is not too far. That's where my family went for the maiden speech. Um, we can go over there. Um, and then I think, I think that's it. Who's got the time? Who's got a watch? Five o'clock. Excellent. Alright, let's go through the wine. So thank you. Thank you for listening to me. Love you long [00:03:30] time.[00:04:00] [00:04:30] [00:05:00] [00:05:30] [00:06:00] Rip Budita, Rip Budita, Rip Budita, our tablets are there, and we want[00:06:30] them. So, we are at Parliament and we are about to listen to Elizabeth Kerekere's valedictory speech. Yeah, there's a whole heap of us and lots of people in purple, um, and I'm not wearing purple but I did bring my umbrella which is rainbow but I can't take it in with me. So anyway, I'm ripping it on the inside. Can you describe the scene in front of us? Well, there's a sea of people wearing all [00:07:00] sorts of different shades of purple, uh, clothing or accessories. And a few people are wearing masks. And there's a real diverse group of people. And we're all here to, um, celebrate and, um, give our tautoko to, uh, lovely Elizabeth. And I think we're actually moving up to the gallery now. Can you, um, describe Elizabeth's time in the house? Oh, she's just been a.. Spark of light, and um, especially for um, [00:07:30] Takatāpui, for our rainbow communities, for especially standing up for our transgender communities. She's been amazing, um, she, she, she's such a fighter, and I just think it's a huge loss to these halls that she's gone, you know, that she's going. But I don't think that her mahi will stop here. If you had three words to describe Elizabeth, what would they be? Oh, queen. Um, ha ha ha. Um, oh. Just. [00:08:00] Fabulous, and a fighter. Yeah. Hopefully you'll get a chance to speak to her tonight, but if you don't, what would be something that you would say to her? Oh, I'm totally here for you, wherever you go next. Um, I have got your back. I am.. Um, just with you for life. Yep. So, um, I'm Bella. Um, I have been a out activist trans woman since I was 11 years old. One of the first hui that I went to [00:08:30] was, uh, in 2011 and it was organised by Elizabeth Kerikeri. Yeah, um, and so tonight we are listening to Elizabeth Kerikeri's valedictory speech here in Parliament. It's a real privilege to be here and to support my friend, my family. It's been a real journey for Elizabeth, uh, in the time she's been here in Parliament. What do you think her legacy, her parliamentary legacy is going to be? Uh, I think that, uh, the media and [00:09:00] society will always villainise, uh, women and.. Women of color and, uh, Pasifika and Maori women, that's just what we've seen. But I think, from a community perspective, we have seen ourselves represented. We've got visibility, um, and I think it's just another one of those small steps of being, having the door opened for others to come after, which is just as powerful and important. If you had three [00:09:30] words to describe, um, Elizabeth. What would those three words be? Uh, beautiful, empowering, and, uh, a trailblazer. And if you, uh, have an opportunity to, to speak to her, which I'm sure you will tonight, um, what would you like to say to her? Oh, that I'm proud of her, and that, um, I'm really grateful that, you know, she's put herself out there and, you know, taken those steps just to even start conversations. Like, sometimes we [00:10:00] forget how important it is, just that base visibility and authenticity. Um, we all know that Elizabeth is not one from shying away from being her bold and authentic self, and that's what we love. We love seeing the colour come into Parliament and the.. That authenticity, you know? Talofa lava, kia ora. My name is Alofa Aiono. Um, probably claim to fame as the wife of Dr Elizabeth Kerekere. And today, it's her last hurrah speech, her mic drop speech, her [00:10:30] valedictorian is what they call it, statement. Um, because my wife is retiring, um, from Parliament. Um, and you can find her link to her speech, um, online I think. And then you can, um.. Have a listen, um, I'm sure it's going to be entertaining. The last three years have been such a rollercoaster. Can you, um, sum up for me what it's been like for you? Oh, wow, look, it's, it's a privilege, you know, it's an honor and privilege, um, to be [00:11:00] in this place by association, um, my wife always said that, um, you know, it's not guaranteed how long she'll be here, she thought guaranteed three years, how much can she get done, um, for the communities and, uh, whanau that she represents. And I know I'm her biggest fan. Um, but I'm not her only fan. And I am so proud at what she has achieved as a one term parliamentarian. So, what do you think some of those biggest achievements have been? Her biggest achievements? Look, [00:11:30] um.. Well, where do you start? Like, um, Elizabeth was involved with, um, the actual membership of the party, um, before she became a parliamentarian, so she helped with writing policy for the Green Party, she, um, helped with, um, restructuring, um, actually, um, living the kaupapa Maori values. Um, that the Green Party, um, stand by in terms of it being, um, tangata te tiriti. Um, and just the stuff she's done [00:12:00] for, uh, rainbow communities and iwi and takatāwhi and women. Um, yeah, amazing. I don't know where to start. Look. If you had to describe Elizabeth in three words, what would those words be? Um, three words, oh my goodness. Um, powerful. Um, uh, result driven. I know that's two words, but the Samoan can't count. And, um, and passionate, kaupapa driven, eh? And, um, yeah, [00:12:30] that's her. Yeah. And finally, um.. If you had anything you wanted to say to her tonight on, on tape, what would that be? Um, look, I tell her I love her every day. Um, every day, um, she does something that makes me even more proud. Um, we celebrated, uh, next year in February will be 32 years together. And so, my secret is, is that I just hold on and I don't let go. And anyone that knows Elizabeth is that, um, she's a doer. She moves really [00:13:00] quick and if you don't hold on, um, she will, um, leave you where you are for you to sort of catch up and, um, because she's got stuff to do, eh? Thank you so much, Gareth. Okay, I'm going to go take my seat. Okay. I call on Dr Elizabeth Kitikire to make her valedictory statement.[00:13:30] Pat McGill.[00:14:00] I thank you so much for your support and advice, especially over the past few months. I also acknowledge the former Speaker, the Right Honourable Trevor Mallard, who once sent me a note in the House [00:14:30] to say that my purple sequin jacket was stretching the definition of business attire. But shout out to Parliamentary Services, who indeed are the best people supporting the best Parliament in the world, and especially my Relationship Manager. Uh, Jane McKenzie and those who have supported my office as we've transitioned. Ka mihi mahi, uh, tōku whānau me oku hoa, [00:15:00] uh, nōku hoa kātua kua tāi mai, uh, tēnā rā tātou kātua. Greetings to my colleagues, my whanau, all of our friends and community people who are here in person and watching online as we hashtag paint parliament purple one more time. I have gathered you here to tell you a story. It is a story of hope, of expectation, of hard work and very late nights. [00:15:30] of laughter and of tears. Not mine though, apparently I'm not allowed to cry. There is scandal because no one is surprised that I would challenge the powers that be. But there's also betrayal because the powers that be don't like to be challenged. And as number four on the Green Party initial list this year I thought I was on a heartwarming two part series and it turns out I was on Survivor and I did not see the blind side coming. However, it is ultimately a [00:16:00] story of triumph because very few people ever get to be an MP. And I sit proudly on my seat up in the naughty corner, uh, because it is an incredible honor to serve those who put me here. And I will work hard for them every day. Uh, mihi atu ki te pāti o ACT, uh, for granting me this space to speak to you all here tonight. As I said in my maiden speech, change happens at many levels. And for some change, for [00:16:30] takatāpui Māori and rainbow whānau, it can only happen here. And I'm really proud of the things I've helped usher through. Because real power and real change lies in community, and with whanau, where I come from and where I gladly return. In 2020, I came in as part of the most diverse Green Caucus ever, and with four rainbow MPs, we.. I proudly claim to be the proudest party in the proudest parliament in the world. I continue to hold [00:17:00] out hope for our next trans non binary or intersex representative who will one day follow in the footsteps of the late and great Jordina Beyer. I came into the Green Party and eventually into parliament after over 40 years of working for our people on Te and Kaupapa Māori things. And over 35 years on youth development and rainbow issues. My focus has always been on our health and our well being and for suicide and violence [00:17:30] prevention. I lead the Maori strategy as chair of Te Matawaka, uh, the Maori Pacifica, uh, Caucus of the Greens and shout out to the incredible Te Matawaka staff who supported that mahi. Tēnā rā koutou katoa. Our highlight was our meetings with the authors of Matike Mai and He Pua Pua, to focus our efforts for the rights of whangata whenua, radically shift the way we make decisions together in this country, and to work towards a [00:18:00] future our ancestors dreamed of when they signed Te Tiriti o Waitangi. We supported occupations around the motu including at Ihumatao, Putiki, uh, Aotea, and Mauwhenua. We encouraged whanau, hapu, and iwi to reach out to us so we could work alongside them. Uh, using our platform and resources to amplify and progress their kaupapa. Operation Patiki ki Kohupatiki Marae reached out to us through the Greens Hawks Bay, Te Matau a Maui branch, and welcome to [00:18:30] both of those ropu who are represented here today. In February 2022, Aki Piper, known as Te Kuini o te Awa, shared a vision to restore the mauri of te awa and enhance the well being of the people through the return of its original name, Ngaruroro ki Mokotuararo ki Rangatira. We supported their petition, two full applications to the Geographic Board, visiting Hastings nearly every month and talking almost every day on the phone. In June we [00:19:00] celebrated that success. It was an exciting, exciting day with the official renaming of Te Awa o Mokotuararo. We were devastated when only a month later he passed away in his sleep. Her legacy lives on, and my office will stay committed to Operation Pātiki, uh, in her memory. Another favourite was when the whānau of Te Waimana Kākū, who are also represented here tonight, reached out to us a year ago. I was proud to host them here in Parliament, and they shared their vision [00:19:30] of their people with jobs and houses on their own whenua. And the devastating impact of the sudden halt of a joint hapū government. project that had promised or they thought had promised to bring their vision to reality. After I raised questions in the house and arranged meetings for them with ministers and their officials, they had their deposits returned and the project looks set to resume. Now those houses aren't built yet. But again, [00:20:00] we remain committed to supporting them until one day we're seeing those being built and their whānau back home. It is in the rainbow space that we have been the most transformative government. Shout out to Rainbow Greens who are with me every step of the way and several of whom are here in the house. In 2021, the Greens led the news at Waitangi for the first time, uh, talking about takatapui rights and banning conversion therapy. My record breaking petition was launched at Auckland Pride [00:20:30] and garnered over 150, 000 signatures in one week, pressuring the government to pass legislation sooner rather than later. I joined the Justice Select Committee for the also record breaking numbers of submissions and hearings. I also joined the Governance and Administration Committee for the BDMRR. To ensure that our trans, non binary, and intersex whānau could more easily change their birth certificates. We've made progress for those people who are born here, but there's work to do [00:21:00] on those who are born overseas. We will keep going. One of my single proudest things is putting the term Whakatāpui into legislation for the first time in the Pai Ora legislation after So very long of researching, promoting, and advocating to be able to do that, uh, was an incredible, incredible thing for me. And my member's bill, I put that in the biscuit [00:21:30] tin, like, just around my maiden speech, and it got drawn. Just in time to exist, and we'll see what happens in the next government. But it was the Human Rights Prohibition of Discrimination on Grounds of Gender Identity and Expression and Variations of Sex Characteristics Amendment Bill. Again, putting a stake in the ground in law for our trans, non binary and intersex whanau. Uh, [00:22:00] and a quick shout out to the Human Rights Commission, uh, and the cross party, uh, Parliamentary Rainbow Group. We have.. supported Idaho, but and, and loosely through our respective parties contributed to all the legislation that has happened in this area. So that was some of the great stuff. There were other things not so great. A few months ago, I had a falling out with the co leaders of the Green Party, which led to my resignation from the party and my [00:22:30] retirement from Parliament. I don't know if anyone here noticed it, it was handled quite discreetly. And actually it was not fun. Day after day, week after week, month after month, I watched while, uh, increasingly unfounded and increasingly elaborate allegations were made about me. Uh, they also claimed that these issues were being resolved by some sort of process [00:23:00] that they had underway. I categorically dispute all such allegations. So this email was sent to my lawyer from the so called process team. Dated 7. 14pm Wednesday 3rd of May. A full four weeks after the original incident. And I quote. As previously discussed, please find attached draft terms of reference for the next steps in our process. You will note that the listed [00:23:30] complainants are just Marama and James. This is because we have not received formal complaints from anyone else at this time. So to recap, no formal complaints, no natural justice, and never a process, let alone a tikanga based one. I consider this to be an epic failure of leadership. I've been a leader for most of my life and mentored many other leaders and especially [00:24:00] amongst our young rainbow people. So here's some tips on how to be a good leader. If a staff, person or MP expresses concerns with how they've been treated, address it immediately. Follow a good faith and restorative process. If a staff member or MP is bringing concerns about racism or other behaviour from other MPs and senior staff, perhaps address those issues. If allegations have been made about someone, perhaps talk to that person to clarify the facts before you start vilifying them in public. [00:24:30] And lastly, if your organisation has a clear principle of non violence, perhaps do not engage in ongoing abusive behaviour. Many people, many people have asked, even after all this, why I still support the Green Party. I've given them, I support the vote in the House, except of course for the therapeutic bill. But I am as committed to our charter principles of ecological wisdom, social responsibility, appropriate decision making and non violence as I ever was. [00:25:00] I support the Green Kaupapa and policies, several of which I helped write and use from Māori frameworks I created, as in fact, the entire restructure. Of the party was based on a Maori framework I created. Some of the people I love and trust the most in this world are green party members, including my wife, , under Juris, um, and my staff Kerry Pei and the former party co convener. [00:25:30] And I'm to all the green members from the cus across the country who are in the house here tonight. Uh, Particularly to the other former party co convener Penny Lynch and her girls who are here all the way from Munich. Uh, because I still think of this as my party, and one day I plan to be back. I've got work to do, but I will never apologise for calling out racism, homophobia and transphobia wherever it occurs.[00:26:00] Speaking of calling out, like many people, I thought the theatre of the debating chamber was indicative of relationships in this house, but of course it is not. The thing that most surprised me when I became an MP was how collegial it was. And we know we get most of the real work done in our select committees and cross party parliamentary groups. I am such a big fan of a house select committee. I am so proud to do that work and it is the time when I [00:26:30] most feel like a lawmaker is in that space working with my colleagues. I have such huge respect for the chairs and the members of that committee. And just a shout out to the staff who do incredible work. We've gone through 67 petitions. in our job and I have appointed myself as the editor in chief of all reports and papers that come through that committee. I also became co chair of the parliamentary friendship group for North America with my colleague Nicola Grigg and I'm a [00:27:00] member of the Europe friendship group that involves hosting a meeting online with dignitaries across those regions. Last year my highlight was visiting colleagues and Six European countries in just two weeks, including seeing the European Parliament in action and listening to Paul Goldsmith play music of a Lithuania composer on a grand piano in Lithuania. Less fun was when our entire delegation's luggage went missing and it chased us across [00:27:30] Europe for the last week. I was also part of the New Zealand Parliamentary Population and Development Group and supported events by the Commonwealth of Women Parliamentarians. A highlight for me was the combined celebration we held last year for being the first parliament in the world to get 50% women representation. But I am most proud of being chair of the Wāʻat committee. Shout out to Tasha Fernandes and the crew for their stellar work. We opened Te Papakura gallery and increased the representation of women and Māori [00:28:00] artists in the collection with the purchase. of six new major works. This is a workplace unlike any other. Being in Parliament leaves its mark on all of us. Like I never used to work with the TV on, but now Parliament TV has been the soundtrack of the last three years. Now, Not only can I recognise every single voice in this house without looking, I don't know how I will function without hearing the dulcet tones of Andrew Bailey or Grant Robinson, or hearing the Honourable [00:28:30] Ginny Anderson tell the Honourable Mark Mitchell one more time, including today, uh, quote, how the 1, 800 extra police will help New Zealanders feel safe. I have never taken this job for granted. Because the goal was never to be an MP, the goal was to do what only an MP could do. Now I know how everything works, I can operate better as an advocate, advocate in the future. I said in my maiden [00:29:00] speech that I would work respectfully across the House, and I hope that my colleagues have found this to be so. And that regardless of who is in government after the dust settles, those MPs who remain, We'll take my call if I ring. And to be clear, I'm not starting my own lobby company. Only because none of the communities I represent can afford to pay me. After parliament, I will put my energy back into my [00:29:30] research and ensuring Paiora actually delivers everything it claims it will for Maori, Pacifica, women, rainbow people, people with disabilities and rural areas and with rare disorders. Now I promised a triumphant end to the story. When I became an independent MP, we heard the horror stories of previous independents who struggled without the machinery of their party. I aimed to, number one, be the best independent MP ever in this Parliament, and number two, to go out in style. [00:30:00] History will decide the first, and I would like to thank all of you here today for helping create the second. My colleagues, you are all welcome to join our party tonight. There will be food, drink, a cashless cash bar, and dancing. Shout out to, uh, my favorite band, White Chapel Jack, who have come down from Auckland to perform for us. Because if you want to catch up with me, you will need to go onto the dance floor. Finally, as I like to say, why do we get up in the morning [00:30:30] if not to change the world? I've done that in every other part of my life, and with all of you. I've done it here and I'll strive to keep doing it after I leave because this Is not the end of my story.[00:31:00] [00:31:30] [00:32:00] [00:32:30] [00:33:00] [00:33:30] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, Kia ora, ko Talia[00:34:00] tōku ingoa. I am [00:34:30] the co chair of the Wellington Pride Festival and it was really emotional in the house. Tonight. Um, fire is so inspiring and you know, it, it hurts to see that she hasn't had, um, the most peaceful exit that she could have had from Parliament. She's been such a leader and such a strong person in the community. She's made so much happen, especially for Wellington Pride. So yeah, it was really emotional tonight. What do you think her, uh, biggest legacy will be? Oh, [00:35:00] her works. The writings that she's done, uh, her thesis, yeah. The Hitsakata voice stuff is just inspiring. And.. Pioneering! Yeah, she's the first to have done works like that and it really has like opened doors for a lot of other takatāpui. That was amazing to hear. I hadn't realised that takatāpui was the first time in legislation due to Elizabeth Kepeke. Yes. Yes, very much so. And, uh, you know, I [00:35:30] think that any leader in the community, you know, you stand on the shoulders of those who come before you. And, um, I stand on the shoulders of Elizabeth and, and she opened many doors for me to be able to do the work that I've done in the community. So yeah, I'm just really proud of her and really thankful for her. If you could describe Elizabeth in three words, what would those words be? Hilarious comes to mind first. She's so cheeky, um, hilarious, intelligent, [00:36:00] advocate. Kia ora, I'm Laney, um, and I'm a member of, um, Te Whanau Whanau. And, um, we went in as a group and sat together. It was, um.. Strange seeing her on the side of the opposition, seeing Elizabeth come in and sit. But she, uh, uh, her speech was amazing and she handled the whole situation so well. And she spoke so, oh, holistically for, uh, every aspect of, of her life. [00:36:30] Beautiful to hear, really. What was the feeling like inside the, um, the house? I thought people, I don't know how they knew that you, you were not permitted to clap or look like that, but you could click, and I can't, but people can, eh? So, um, there was a lot of, uh, clicking. in support of what she was saying and, um, Ah, I'm blown away by her speech. I thought that it was, it covered every aspect, [00:37:00] um, of her, of getting there, of what had changed for her, of the incident that led to her now leaving, um, and she spoke. So clearly about that, and, and, uh, um, vigorously, and you could hear the passion in her voice, eh? But, um, but she then moved on and recaptured, and I thought that was a wonderful way to finish, to recapture, um, um, hope and, um, the things she'd enjoyed [00:37:30] about being in Parliament. I thought, um, the, what do you call it, the holism, holisticness of her speech was, was lovely. Um, and it was wonderful to be with, just to see the whole gallery full of people that knew her from every aspect of her life. Her whanau, um, her wife's whanau, uh, Lofa's whanau, uh, some of us friends that go back. Decades and decades, uh, Te Whanau [00:38:00] Whanau that she, she started, um, other groups that she's, uh, um, supported, uh, and have, and have come to support her tonight. It was just, um, a beautiful. Uh, crowd, uh, in the gallery, wasn't it? And, uh, it was lovely to be there. And to have come to her, what do you call it? When she was welcomed. To come when she first arrived, and then come back. Uh, that's [00:38:30] the least we could do, is come and take her away. From a place that, she talked about the support, but from a, from a, a place that's also caused a lot of hurt, eh? Anyway, I'm blown away by her dignity, so. Kia ora, it's Tabby Besley here from Inside Out Koaro. I've just been in the house to watch, um, Elizabeth Kirikiri's final. Hurrah, shall we say. Well, hopefully not the final. Um, so we've been here, lots of [00:39:00] us wearing purple in support in the gallery to watch her, and I guess thank her for all the work that she's done. And, yeah, I guess it was mixed, mixed emotions, um, pride. Yeah, being able to see, see her and what she's contributed and, um, have someone that's been such an incredible figure in our communities, um, you know, in this place that is Parliament, um, and also obviously, yeah, sadness and anger at kind of, yeah, obviously what, what's happened, um, that's led to her being, having to leave.[00:39:30] I thought it was very interesting, her final comments around about that she wasn't here as a, uh, she wasn't here as a Member of Parliament. She, she came in to do work, not be a Member of Parliament. Absolutely, and I remember actually, oh, I don't know what year it was, years ago, before Elizabeth, um, ran. Ran for the Green Party the first time. I remember being at a hui and she asked a few of us our opinions on whether we thought that she should run for Parliament and join, kind of, join the Green Party in that way. Um, or not [00:40:00] kind of stay in the community. I remember, um, I remember saying I thought she should stay working in the community realm and that, um, you know, that we can do so much change in this realm. But she was, um, Yeah, obviously took a lot of time to think about it and, and gave, gave it a go and we've been so lucky to have her, um, in here doing that community work, um, it hasn't felt like she's, you know, changed as a person, she's still been so accessible and, um, always in support of what we're, what we're doing in our kind of organisations and communities.[00:40:30] Now, Elizabeth was organising, um, kind of queer youth whoies way back in the early 2000s, maybe 2008, 2009. Did you go to any of those early works? I absolutely did. Yes, um, the SS4Q and Kaha um, Hui that happened in those days. Um, and that, yeah, it was definitely a big inspiration of, yeah, that led, led to, um, the Shift Hui that Inside Out does now. And so when you think back about those early youth Hui's to today, [00:41:00] um, what are the kind of key things you think of when you think of Elizabeth and her activism? Uh, it's just phenomenal, like how much she has.. has done and, um, the quality she has as a person, just that kind of relentless dedication and passion, um, and she likes to call on her, you know, her Scorpio strategic mind, um, and her ability to, yeah, to get things done and to, um, yeah, always kind of follow through with what she believes in and I think she's always, yeah, from [00:41:30] the time I've known her, always, um, been like that and it's just got stronger and stronger, um, in it. Now, Um, If you wanted to say something on tape to Elizabeth, what would that be? Oh, just, thank you. Thank you so much for, um, everything, and for what you've had to put up with, um, you know, being in this kind of colonial.. Probably inherently quite queerphobic system, um, but you've been a voice for us, um, [00:42:00] and that's, yeah, hasn't gone unnoticed, it's been so appreciated, um, and there are so many people that, yeah, have seen what, the work that you've done, um, here, but more so out in the wider Thank you. In the wider communities and, um, yeah, we're just so grateful and we'll continue to stand by you and work with you and yeah, we're incredibly lucky to have had you and even if it was just this three years kind of in Parliament that has made a difference and an impact and it will give so many [00:42:30] people coming forward that, um encouragement, I think, as well, and that strength that, um, they can be someone that enters these spaces, too. So, my name is Will Hanson. I am a trustee of Tipuranga Takatāpui o Aotearoa, Um, and at the moment, I'm at the, uh, after party, I guess you'd call it, for Elizabeth Kirikiri's, uh, valedictory speech. Um, there's a whole bunch of people dressed in purple, lots of very lovely, friendly faces, lots of chatting. I think there's a, um, sense of [00:43:00] excitement. Everyone's waiting to see Elizabeth. She's just, I think, being hounded by the media downstairs. So, uh, yeah, it's a really lovely warm atmosphere. So what was it like, uh, hearing, uh, Elizabeth's valedictory actually in the, in the gallery? Uh, it was really cool to see her speak in the gallery and I, I guess I was there for her maiden speech. So it's kind of exciting to be there for her valedictory speech. And aside from her maiden speech, you know, this is the second time I've been to the gallery. So it's really cool to just see in the flesh [00:43:30] her and this is where she's been for the last three years and been doing so much advocacy for queer people and other communities. So it was really special to be there in person and support her and show up in all the purple. So if you had to sum up Elizabeth in three words, what would they be? Oh, that's a lot of pressure, three words. Um, courageous, um, fabulous, and kind hearted.[00:44:00] Yeah, I'm pretty proud of her. I'll just share a little story. I was, I sort of said to her, I'm going to look for a rubber microphone so that when you finish, I'll drop the mic from the gallery. You can imagine what she said to that. So, um, that didn't happen. Um, and I'll just share another story. Thank you to all those who have traveled, those who were delayed in Auckland and still made it. If you missed her speech, it'll be, [00:44:30] um, online. We'll post up the link. But I'm going to share a story. You know, I was thinking, why am I nervous? Why am I so nervous? And I'm going to take a line. I was celebrating a friend's PhD and her cousin did a line where she said her cousin's PhD is her PhD. And I thought, why didn't I use that? So, I'm going to use that line. The reason why I'm nervous is because this valedictory speech is my valedictorian speech. [00:45:00] So thank you, whanau. Thank you for coming and listening to our speech, our statement. Um, thank you for supporting my wife. Um, we're a team. She always says that she can't do anything without me, and vice versa. So, she will join us. Hey, there she is![00:45:30] Hey! Hip hip, hooray! Alright, so a lot of people are going to want a group photo as well, so don't disappear. Um, and so, and we'll get the, I'll get, we've got a couple of speeches, that's right, we've got a couple of speeches, so grab a drink, grab some food, and I'll get directions from my wife. Thank you, kia ora. Okay, we're gonna start off with [00:46:00] a dear friend. Remember I told you the story about the cousin who was at the PhD of a friend? This is the friend. So, um, the newly, um, Dr. Megan, um, is gonna say a few words first, and I'm gonna hand her the mic. And listen carefully, I'm, I'm gonna hear this for the first time as well. So here you go, Megan. And after Megan, who have you got, Elizabeth? George! Excellent! Okay, here you go. Kia ora koutou katoa. Uh, thank you for this [00:46:30] opportunity to speak and to be here tonight to celebrate you, Elizabeth. Um, for those of you who don't know me, my name is Megan Brady Clark, and I'm talking tonight, uh, on behalf of a group, um, of amazing women, scattered throughout the room, I thought they might be in a cluster, um, called the Kick Us Wahine Crew, so dubbed by Elizabeth. Um, we're a group of friends who met through the Green Party, having all been actively, very actively involved at one time or another. [00:47:00] Back in 2021, near the start of this electoral term, the Kick Ass Wahine crew decided to meet up. We'd been working together online for a while, but we decided to have a full two day workshop to plan, talk and strategise. Now the first thing that has to be said about this is that it was January. Parliament didn't start sitting until mid February, so most MPs were as far from the beehive as possible, resting and relaxing [00:47:30] on holiday. Not Elizabeth. On those beautiful sunny days, Elizabeth had flown in from Gisborne to sit inside, pull out the felt pens and the post it notes and get on with the mahi. She turned up with an absolute determination to get the most out of those two days, holding tightly the weight of responsibility for all those whom she represented in Parliament. We covered a lot in that hui. We talked about parliamentary [00:48:00] processes, Green Party internal processes, policy, media, members bills, admin, the Green long term strategy, constitutional change, you know, your normal fun summer holiday topics. And it could easily have been utterly overwhelming and daunting. But Elizabeth has a remarkable clarity of vision, an ability to see past the noise and the game playing, and to just get on with what needs to be done. No matter the topic, Elizabeth [00:48:30] kept us grounded on what matters. She was there to make change, to advocate for things larger than herself. That is what she had done before her time in Parliament, and that is what she continued to do throughout her time in Parliament, tirelessly and fearlessly. And despite the rather dry topics, we actually had a wonderful time. We told stories, we laughed, we commiserated, we shared food. Elizabeth was there [00:49:00] to work, and we were there to support her work, but we were also there to support each other as people. That weekend and every other time that I've worked with her, Elizabeth has made space for us to bring ourselves fully into the room. Values like aroha, justice, compassion and dignity get thrown around a lot in left politics. But Elizabeth lives them. I've felt first hand her love and her upholding of my [00:49:30] complex messy humanness and I've witnessed it in her relationships with others. I also see it in her political work, where she fights to improve the lives of people, particularly those marginalized by the current systems, never forgetting that behind all the numbers and policy and jargon of parliament, there are real people with real lives being impacted. Today, thanks to Elizabeth's work, the world is a safer [00:50:00] and brighter place for so many of us. I'm in awe of Elizabeth's bravery. To live with such integrity. To be so true to herself and her values. And yes, that does include the ability to somehow rock sequins and feathers even during the daytime. I'm not exaggerating when I say that there have been times when faced with a difficult situation, I've asked myself, what would Elizabeth do? And I don't [00:50:30] claim to have always channeled her perfectly, but the answer is always consistent. Find what matters, and be true to it. In your maiden speech, and again tonight, Elizabeth, you put forward a question. Why do we get up in the morning if not to change the world? You made incredible, important changes during your time as an MP, but you also changed the world before you arrived in Parliament, and I know you'll keep changing it after your time here too.[00:51:00] And so I want to thank you, Elizabeth. For your relentless courage and integrity, for being an indefatigable champion of justice, dignity, and aroha for all of us. We love you, and we're so excited to stand alongside you as you continue to change the world. And I have a small token on behalf of Kick Ass Wāhine, Greens, and a few other community people of our love for you. Tēnā[00:51:30] koutou katoa, ko George Parker, tōku ingoa. I was so honoured and admittedly a little bit petrified, uh, when I was asked to speak this evening, uh, because nothing could mean more to me than the opportunity to honour you, Dr Elizabeth Kerekere. When I was thinking how I might put into words my [00:52:00] feelings of awe and deep appreciation for you, Elizabeth, My hand reached, as it is, uh, want to doing these days, to my chest, where the toro, the albatross, hangs, uh, that you gifted me after an intense day of Trans Pregnancy Care Project research hui in the hills of Otokonui on a spring day last year. A precious taonga that reminds me every day what it means to do the work we [00:52:30] do so that rainbow lives can flourish. Grounded, uh, in relationships that are based on trust, respect, and aroha. That has been my experience of you as we have continued to travel down the braided river of work and friendship, Elizabeth, and I thank you for it. The mighty tōrua. Signifies beauty and power, splendor and strength, but [00:53:00] also freedom, stretching traditional boundaries and territories, as this mighty bird explores uncharted waters. Though it circumnavigates the globe, the to is uniquely of Altura and always returns home to the OTA harbor. A place where Elizabeth and I are both very fortunate to share whanau connections. Elizabeth, on behalf of [00:53:30] our vibrant rainbow communities of Altura, so, uh, many of whom are represented in this room tonight. You are our mighty tōrua. Your enduring leadership in uplifting takatākuitanga and our rainbow communities in Aotearoa is beyond outstanding. Your contributions during your term in Parliament have been phenomenal. Your matauranga ti Wharetaka Tātui is [00:54:00] world leading, opening powerful new pathways for rainbow flourishing through the decolonisation of knowledges about gender, sexuality and sex characteristic diversity. So this journey in Parliament, uh, this flight of the tōrua may be over for now, uh, but the next journey awaits you, and you have our love and support every mile that you travel. And in honour of our mighty tōrua, [00:54:30] the albatross, I wanted to read a poem by the very beautiful Hone Tūwhare. Day and night, endlessly, you have flown effortless of wing over chest expanding oceans far from land. Do you switch on an automatic pilot? Close your eyes and sleep, Tora. On your way to your home ground at Otago Heads, you tried to rest [00:55:00] briefly at Wai o te mata. But you were shot by ignorant people. Crippled, you found a resting place at Whanganui a Tara, found space at last to recompose yourself. And now, without skin and flesh to hold you together, the division of your aerodynamic parts lies whitening, lit clean by sun and air and water. Children will discover narrow corridors of eeriness [00:55:30] between the suddenness of bulk. Naked, laugh in the gush and ripple, the play of light on water. You are not alone, Taurua. A taniwha once tried to break out of the harbour for the open sea. He failed. He is lonely. From the top of the mountain nearby he calls to you, Hare mai, hare mai, welcome home traveller. Your head tilts, your eyes open to the world.[00:56:00] We love you, Dr. Elizabeth. Kia ora, Megan and George. Awesome. Now, last but not least, we've got our, um, whānau who have travelled, um, here to.. Yeah, I'm just going to give you the mic. Howie, um, you can come up here and do your stuff. Love you long time, brother. Thank you so much. Thank you. Um, [00:56:30] tēnā tātou Um, Elizabeth, tēnā koe. Um, I'm just going to be very short and very sharp. Um, Elizabeth's already sort of touched on, um, a kaupapa that she worked dearly with one of our aunties, um, Aunty Aki Piper, who sadly passed away just a month ago. So thank you for acknowledging her in the house tonight, um, Elizabeth. Um, it really means a lot to our whānau that are here tonight, but also to the rest of our hapū, our whānau back home, and [00:57:00] especially her sister, our mum. Um, so, marere tēnā. Um, 15 years ago, this is about you. Um, but 15 years ago, um, Operation Pātiki was launched with a profound vision, and that was to, quite simply, restore the mauri of our taiao. Led by Hori ki Heretaunga, sisters Aki, Akinihi Paipa, And Margie McGuire knew that this meant starting with the wai.[00:57:30] Te Awau o Mokotuararo became Aunty Aggie's swan song, so to speak. And three days before her passing, she convened what would be her final hui, which just happened to be with a whole lot of Ngati Kahungunu reo tohunga. And as the meeting went, Aunty sort of told them that this kaupapa, and what it meant to not just the hapu, but to the rest of us in our community. But also to the rest of us throughout [00:58:00] Aotearoa. And it is something that she was truly passionate about. Um, and that was the naming, the changing of the name from Clive to.. Um, but, to be very honest, without your help, Dr Elizabeth Kerekere, that would not have happened. I don't want to be a bit of a waterworks. Um, this is [00:58:30] a quote from Aunty Aggie, um, when she first met with you. This is her quote. I met this lady, and she was the thing of the thing of the thing. She was fabulous. She reigns ignited in me. The true essence of what it means to be mana whenua, to be mana wahine. Woman doing kaupapa for our people. So, with that, um, on behalf of [00:59:00] our hapu, Dr Elizabeth Kerekere, we'd like to present you with a taonga just recently woven by our sister Ani. The name of this kete, Ani can present it to you, is Te Awa o Mokotuararo. Thank you so much. We'd also like to acknowledge, and this is about [00:59:30] Dr. Elizabeth, but there's one other person that Aunty wanted to adopt. She said to us, uh, three days before she passed, when we rang her, I'm going to find my who, she's going to be my daughter. Um, and Elizabeth's going to be my other daughter. Um, and Kerry, could you come forward please?[01:00:00] This kete we would like to present to you on behalf of our whānau, our hapū. And the name of our kete is Pātiki. That's it. Thank you so much. Kia ora whānau. [01:00:30] Yeah, I'm crying. Um, just in case you didn't realise, um, Kerry.. Uh, Kerry Papey has been my wife's, um, rock in this place. Um, she's my best mate, and yeah, um, I said, If I can't be in that place to look after my wife, I need someone that I can completely trust. Who I know will take multiple bullets. And um, and that's my mate Kerry. Uh, don't be fooled by her [01:01:00] size. Um, back in the day when we played softball, and I used to drink a lot, and we used to go party, and I used to ring up Elizabeth and say, well I'm just gonna go out with the team. And Elizabeth used to say, is Kerry going? And I go, yep. And she goes, okay then. Um, and, um, yeah, so, love you Kerry. And what you probably, some of you may know and don't know, Um, with Elizabeth leaving this place a bit earlier than we had expected, Um, I [01:01:30] had to go back and get a job. And yeah, someone hired me. Um, I got a job. But also, um, not only is Elizabeth's job no longer, Um, Kerry's job is no longer. Um, Kerry was able to look after my wife, um, but also meant that her wife, who's in, um, remission of stage 4 cancer, was able to leave her job. So there's repercussions. Repercussions that those [01:02:00] people that chose to do this. Um, still chose to do this. So Kia Ora, thank you for your support. Um, Kerry, got you for life, love you long time, mate. And, um, and the other shout out is, is to my family. Um, and to Elizabeth's family. Um, you guys, I, there's no words to my beautiful aunties and to my cousins. Um, over there, they're the really good looking ones. That's my family. Um, to my sister [01:02:30] and, and to the rest, they couldn't be here because they did what they needed to do. They stayed home because they got the flu. Uh, Elizabeth and I got the flu, but we managed to get rid of it before this speech. So, look, I'm going to see who's next. Um, the other ones that I will shout out to are all our green whanau. Um, those that are still part of the party, me, yes, under duress. Um, but also those who made us, who made us stand and left [01:03:00] the Green Party because they just could not stomach staying with a party that did this. Um, but as my wife said, still party vote green to get really good candidates in. Um, like the awesome official Collins, like the awesome Stephanie Rogers, like the awesome Darlene who's sitting over here. Uh, we still got really good candidates people, um, that can represent us in the house. Okay, so that is me. Who is next on the list? You, Elizabeth? We're gonna [01:03:30] get a few words from the lady, and then she will probably ask the band to start. And then, and then that's us, okay? Love yous, and um, here we go. Bye bye. Oh, kia ora koutou katoa. um, poa. I hadn't got so far as thinking about saying things right now. [01:04:00] I just want to thank.. All of you, everyone who's traveled, all our whanau, our friends, our community, people who are always here for me. And I hope you always know, I will be always here for you. I'm going to work my way around the town, around the room. Um, not the town. I was serious about dancing. We will be moving some of these tables further [01:04:30] back. Uh, but I'll come around, visit each of you, have a catch up. And, uh, I thought maybe I'd stay here for a couple of terms. And it's ended up to be one, but when we started, because of course, as soon as I employed Kiri, we sat down and had a strategic planning session for the two of us on how we're going to work, and we said, if we only have three years, if that's all we [01:05:00] have, what must we do? And we have ticked off all of the things that we needed to do. And as.. All of the legislation, all of the things that need to happen in this place that affects so many of us. Those of us who are Maori, who are Pacifica, who have disabilities, who live in rural areas. All of the things that need to happen here. I put out that [01:05:30] and the House, and I said, I hope you'll take my call. Several of the mps who came up, including National Enact people, said, I'll take your call. And it is no, it is a waste of time to be putting down people because they have views I disagree with. I will always look for what binds us. I will always look for how we move forward together. Uh, the stuff that happened, [01:06:00] uh, it was hard seeing, uh, all those kind of lies being told about me over and over again. But my communities came out in support. People I didn't know thought, that can't be true. And I'm so, so thankful for that, because actually in the end, like I care what they think. Seriously. Like I care. I got asked today, were you worried that the rest of the Green Party members weren't sitting in their houses? Like, I didn't [01:06:30] notice. I wasn't looking. Um, but in the future, this is still made up of people I care about and I will still be connected with all of these things. Thank you so much. This gift of the speech, my speeches in the house is as Thank you so, so very much. And the kete, oh my gosh. And the gifts other people have given me. Thank you. And all of this, just saying, I [01:07:00] might need to take some of this off to do my best dancing. Um, but thank you. I will treasure all of the things. The very last thing we would like to do is We've got someone, hopefully, with a camera, or get your camera up to you, is um, we would like you all to come into the central place, and just acknowledging that some of my parliamentary colleagues are here, so, and I expect some more of them to come later on, um, you're [01:07:30] always, always welcome. We'd like to invite all of you. To come into this middle and we're gonna look up here and get a photo, a group photo of all of us say, come on over, Koto. Love you, . Let's go people. Father space.[01:08:00] [01:08:30] [01:09:00] .

IRN: 3634
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/introduction_to_pride_nz.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004944
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1107359
TITLE: Introduction to Pride NZ
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Gareth Watkins
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: Aotearoa New Zealand; Library of Congress; National Library of New Zealand; pridenz. com
DATE: 9 July 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Founder of Pride NZ, Gareth Watkins, introduces the Pride NZ collection and describes its deposit with the National Library of New Zealand
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Kia ora koutou. My name's Gareth Watkins, the founder of PrideNZ. com. Pride NZ is a privately funded community website based in Wellington, New Zealand. The website was launched in 2009 and now contains over 900 audio recordings of interviews and local community events, showcasing the stories and opinions of New Zealand's LGBTI+ Rainbow communities. While the earliest recordings [00:00:30] date back to the 1990s, some of the content goes back even further, with some interviewees remembering growing up in the 1940s and 1950s. Pride NZ wouldn't exist without community support. There have been hundreds of interviewees from the community telling their own stories, as well as event organisers allowing their events to be recorded and shared. The website has three aims. [00:01:00] The Pride NZ collection is not only seen as a treasure today, but will also become a touchstone for generations to come. It's going to allow for people to hear who we were, how we spoke, what our dreams and our aspirations were. Pride NZ is about open, immediate dissemination of content. We don't [00:01:30] embargo or limit access to material. Pride NZ has never seen itself as a permanent forever, archive. We simply don't have the people or digital infrastructure or finance to do this. So as the years have gone by with more and more significant content being recorded, the responsibility of preserving these voices has weighed heavily. [00:02:00] Pride NZ's approach to archiving has been to make sure that the collection is in multiple locations both internationally and in New Zealand. Since 2011, the National Library of New Zealand has been collecting a digital snapshot of Pride NZ in its annual harvest of New Zealand websites. And around the same time, we began sending Pride NZ to the Internet Archive for snapshotting. [00:02:30] In 2019, to make sure high resolution versions of the audio were being archived, we added high quality MP3s to the website. And then a year later, to increase discoverability, we added computer generated transcriptions of the audio. In 2021, the Library of Congress took a snapshot of the website, and this then prompted a discussion with the National Library of New Zealand about depositing the master recordings. And [00:03:00] then in September 2022, the National Library acquired the Pride NZ collection, which was made up of 818 master recordings and 20 folders of related ephemera. So things like flyers, postcards, and programme notes. Accruals to the collection are continuing, with around five new recordings being deposited every month. The National Library deposit also prompted Pride NZ to develop and release a number of datasets [00:03:30] under a Creative Commons license. Now anyone can download detailed metadata about the collection, along with a dataset of geo-referenced locations relating to Rainbow communities. While it's beneficial having the audio in multiple institutions, there are real significant benefits in having the National Library of New Zealand as the primary long-term repository. The National Library has the most robust infrastructure for managing cultural digital collections in New [00:04:00] Zealand. It has a dedicated team committed to managing the files in perpetuity. Through an explicit wording in the deposit agreement and an ongoing face-to-face relationship with Pride NZ, the library understands and is committed to upholding the original intent of the website and participants, that is, open, free access to the content. The Arrangement and Description team at the National Library have professionally described the collection at item level, allowing for greater [00:04:30] discoverability and linking to other collections. They're also in the process of implementing the Homosaurus, an international thesaurus of terms relating to Rainbow communities. It was really important for Pride NZ to have the collection in an institution that cared equally for all of the diverse voices and opinions expressed in the recordings. And finally, Pride NZ believes it's important for heritage institutions, particularly heritage institutions [00:05:00] funded by the State to represent the diversity of experiences and voices in the country. Having the Pride NZ collection preserved by the National Library of New Zealand shows a tangible commitment from the State to honour the experiences of Rainbow communities in Aotearoa New Zealand.

IRN: 3565
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_politicians_ricardo_menendez_march.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004699
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093089
TITLE: Ricardo Menéndez March - Rainbow Politicians
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ricardo Menendez March
INTERVIEWER: Regis Perez
TAGS: 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Green Party; Member of Parliament; Mexico; Regis Perez; Ricardo Menendez March; Wellington; hospitality; migrants; minimum wage; unemployment
DATE: 25 November 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Ricardo Menéndez March from the Green Party talks to Regis Perez about what it's like to be a Member of Parliament.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So I grew up in Mexico with stories from my family on their political involvement during the Cold War at a time where, um, there was, um, foreign interventions across Latin America by the U. S. and many. Communities were fighting against the rise of the right and that those stories inform my political values. But when I immigrated to New Zealand, [00:00:30] it wasn't until I had lived here for a few years that I had. Started listening, um, to what politi politicians were saying about our migrant communities. That started making me attuned to, to domestic politics, um, and as a hospitality worker, um, working close to the minimum wage, I remember in the 2011 election, um, when I was watching the coverage, um, during one of [00:01:00] my shifts, just watching a clip of people like Winston Peters talking about Typical narratives about migrants buying all the homes and being kind of a cause of so many of society's ills and that to me really struck a chord because I thought, who are these people he's talking about? Like, I'm on a low wage, I like definitely don't have the means to buy a home and most of my peers don't either. And that made me quite angry and, [00:01:30] um, started getting me more engaged and it was until 2014 that I stopped. Through friends who I shared values, um, I managed to get involved as a volunteer in the Green Party 2014 campaign. And, um, since then I've been doing stuff on, um, Their rights of unemployed people and the rights of migrant workers as well overall with the green. Um, how has your experience been working here in Parliament? So as a parliamentarian it has been [00:02:00] Well, it's there's a massive sense of responsibility for the communities that I belong to and I think the job can be what you make of it because it can be quite broad. Um, and I always felt like as an MP, I'm the extension, the parliamentary wing of communities on the ground trying to make change. And what I mean by that is that I'm [00:02:30] still working on things like trying to lift benefits, um, individualized income support, um, support migrant workers, and always applying that as well, a queer lens to that because so many of the changes we're fighting for, so for example, individualizing benefits, which may not seem like a queer issue at first, but, um, but it is because so many of our rules around how people receive support and how people think of family as part of how they receive support are grounded on [00:03:00] Um, and so I often think of this work here as an extension of what I was doing before, just with access to asking questions directly to ministers and getting to hear about the agencies that, that, um, do the work around creating legislation. So, um, quite intense, but very fulfilling, um, comes with yet great sense of responsibility. Being in a government or a parliament with the most [00:03:30] political queer figures in the world, um, how does it feel to be amongst one of those twelve? I mean, I think, I've always been a bit cynical about the sort of branding about having the queerest parliament because for me the, with representation comes responsibility. If we're the queerest parliament in the work and we're not doing everything we can to improve the rights of queer people, then representation becomes a bit of a lip service. And saying that, I do think [00:04:00] what having greater queer representation in parliament is showing is the diversity that exists both in terms of identity, but in ways of thinking that exists within our communities, um, while acknowledging that despite being the queers parliament, we still don't have openly trans and non binary people here. Um, and I think that's worth noting. Um, and so. Yeah, like, it's great, for example, in the Greens, like, there's four of [00:04:30] us out of ten who are openly queer, and that's, um, that just means that, um, we often find ourselves on the same page on those issues, and that makes it, as a team, quite easy to work with, and to then build alliances with the Labour in Peace, who are the other party who have openly queer in peace, but at the same time, um, There will still be differences, and on issues such as the hate speech legislation, we've been quite clear that, you know, um, queer people [00:05:00] should be part of that conversation, and currently they're not, um, and we've got queer people in the party that is drafting the legislation that, um, That in some ways are complicit with excluding queer people from hate speech legislation, right? So I think that's always interesting when we consider the responsibilities that come from being part of the queer community and a parliament that celebrates that representation. At this current moment in time, do you think parliament has progressed towards equality for the LGBTQ plus community? [00:05:30] We've made some, like, important steps and whether it is through Merit Equality or Self ID laws, um, but there is so much more work to do, and part of the problem in my view is that the intersections of different communities are often not thought about when we're drafting legislation. I think the Self ID laws, um, were a great example where. We [00:06:00] had overseas born queer people who were constantly reminding government, Hey, look, like we will be excluded from the legislation. Please improve the legislation or go back to the drawing board. And at no point there were improvements being made to include overseas born queer people, which often will also include queer migrants. Um, and. So I think this is some of the challenges still to come, um, that outside of some [00:06:30] improvements that have been made for often sort of cisgendered and Pākehā queer communities, um, many of our communities continue being left behind, and I think that's where I think the next step should be as well. What more do you think we can do to support trans and non binary people in Aotearoa? Ensuring that we, A, consider, well, consider the needs of the communities in all [00:07:00] policymaking is one step. The second one is to actually engage with communities, um, When policymaking is happening. Um, and I think an example of that would be on, so to give an example of my work where I think there are intersections with the lives of trans and non binary people. One of the issues I've been working on has been, um, health requirements that migrants must pass in order to access. visas. And, uh, [00:07:30] the way that it works is that if you're deemed to have a cost to the healthcare system, you may not get a visa. That often is talked about in the framework of how it impacts disabled people. But what it is not often known is that if you're a trans migrant and, uh, you disclose that you may be seeking gender affirming, um, medical Procedures that, um, then you could be seen as a burden to, um, the public healthcare system and therefore be rejected a visa. And I think [00:08:00] this is why we shouldn't just think of our trans and non binary, um, peers just in the context of like explicitly queer rights legislation, but actually everywhere, because. Trans people are overrepresented in homelessness statistics. Um, trans people are, and there's no, you know, adequate services to address the needs of trans people who are homeless. Trans people are also overrepresented in substance abuse statistics. And yet we, again, [00:08:30] like, there's still missing initiatives that specifically target those communities. And I think this is where we need to do better as a parliament. And with greater representation of trans and non binary people in parliament. Should hopefully help in the future, but at the same time, those of us here still have a responsibility to engage with our trans and non binary peers around this. And I would add, um, on top of those two communities, that [00:09:00] a community that we should also be engaging more with is the intersex community, which.. It tends to also be, um, invisibilized in legislation. And when we continue having non consensual surgeries on intersex babies, you know, I think of the progress we're yet to make. Do you have a sort of future vision for, um, Takatapui people of our country? Yeah, with Takatapui, um, members of, of [00:09:30] our communities, I think, well.. I often look at the work that Elizabeth Kittikate is doing and has been doing for, for so many years. Um, and I, I see often my role as somebody who's To'uiwi to, to actually amplify and support the, of the work that she is doing. Um, I think again, it's about taking the lead from Takatakoi, um, community members about what is it that their need and their aspirations and, and. Part of what Elizabeth [00:10:00] has been calling for is a ministry for rainbow communities that then specifically can have a lens. It's around the needs of different communities, which then filters into how other decisions are being made. And I think that could be something that we could be exploring. Um, but I think for those of us who are in Māori, it is about taking the lead from our peers who are Takatāpui and, um, and simply supporting them in their work. Yeah. Awesome. Um, what can queer people do to support queer politicians? [00:10:30] I mean, first of all, I think hold us to account. Thank you very much. Um. Because our queer identities are not just.. Media opportunities, right? It's about, again, I go back to the responsibility we have. And so we're all richer for when our community is engaging with us to ask us to do better and to give us feedback of the work that we're doing. Um, I think if anything, you know, I, I, I feel supported by the community. And for me, [00:11:00] if anything, the question I think about is more, what is it we need to do better to support our communities, right? Um, but if I think of that sort of mutual relationship where I think we could be doing better is recognizing that in our queer community. We still have a long way to go to combat things like transphobia and racism and fatphobia and a lot of other challenges, right? Like, our queer community is [00:11:30] not monolithic and there's still challenges within our own community. And so, um, when in, when we're engaging with members of the public, I think that's something to, to take into account. And this is why I think, you know, and I think the queer community has actually. You know, progressive queer members of the community and often left wing members of the queer community have had a long history of standing in solidarity with other marginalized groups because we are everywhere because of those intersections. [00:12:00] So I think, yeah, I would put it in terms of support to us. I guess it's more about the accountability because again, we're all stronger for it. Yeah. Do you have any, uh, queer heroes that you have in mind or queer people that you look up to or inspire you? Yeah. I mean, there's just, there's so many. Um, I often, and I often struggle with to name like, I don't know, really high ranking public figures because it's [00:12:30] often the people on the ground that I think about who have often challenged us. Um, like, and, and, and so I guess to. You know, I think of our green movement and some of the queer people who are starting to challenge, um, the gender binary. Think of, you know, people like Danny Marks and Rosemary Peppermint have recently ran a local body campaign like that. That's the people I'm often inspired by, um, [00:13:00] in terms of, um, People at the forefront making change, or even activists like Eliana, who is an intersex activist and, um, went through a really challenging struggle with having her intersex identity and, uh, recognized in official documents. Like, those are the people I often look up to. Um, but it's actually the mahi on the ground and the people on the ground doing it. [00:13:30] Could you share a little bit of your personal journey with, uh, coming to terms with your own identity and also growing up in Mexico as well? Yeah, I, I mean, I grew up in an incredibly Catholic community society. I didn't grow up in a Catholic household, but it was quite confronting to come to terms with my identity when so much of the media around me and. The comments around me were literally violent [00:14:00] towards our communities. I first came out to my first, uh, girlfriend from high school. Um, and I, after coming out to my friend as a bit of a practice run before I kind of had the conversation with her and, um, and despite it being like a really difficult conversation, like I, what really helped me is that underneath it all, she was actually really supportive of. I mean, it's like that we broke up and everything, but she was really supportive [00:14:30] of my identity. And I think that was really helpful. And it was for me really helpful to have, um, uh, a dad who, who, who was deeply supportive. Um, and, and sometimes I do want to highlight the positive experiences of coming out because they, they do exist. Um, I thought the act of coming out in itself is complicated and you know, I think we, we, we should unpack that sometimes later down the track, but, [00:15:00] um, but when I came to Aotearoa as a migrant, there was this kind of weird thing where like, I had come out to basically like my dad and to my close friends from high school. And then I came into a setting where it was like, I had to come out all over again. And so like, and I think this is not come out, but I guess where you often feel unsafe revealing. That you're queer or kind of openly talking about your queerness, um, or again, feeling like it's going to get [00:15:30] identified. And so that process of constantly feeling like you're outing yourself was quite, um, was quite tasking. And like at times I felt unsafe and like in different environments, I felt like I would have to then, um, play straight to the best of my limited ability. Until it kind of became inevitable or somebody would ask a question and, and like, and why speak about it this [00:16:00] way is because there was always that feeling of not feeling safe, right? Um, so I guess that was kind of my initial reflections, but I do feel really lucky that I have a network of people who have been consistently supportive and we all know the difference that it makes for one's mental health for one's. It's just general life outcomes to have people who are supportive. And so I ground myself into a lot when thinking about other members [00:16:30] of the community who don't have those people around them. Working here in Parliament, have you ever had any sort of like treatment change from being an openly, um, you know, open about your sexuality? Have you been treated differently for better or for worse or had any sort of experience like that? I think. Because in my caucus, 40% of [00:17:00] us are queer, it's just so normal, which is great, like, you know, and I would not, I don't think you'd be able to say the same thing about other political parties necessarily. Um, and you know, we have had legislators from National who belatedly came out either after their careers or at the intel of their careers. And then I think, damn, like, it must be really unsafe to be out. Um, in those parties. [00:17:30] Um, so I personally feel like what has really helped not feel like I get a different treatment in Parliament as a result of it is that, um, There's just so many queer people in the Greens. But what I think is different in terms of the treatment is that by being openly queer, you also, your constituents and your community knows that it is safe to approach you if they have needs relating to their identity. And so [00:18:00] it is great to know that some queer migrants are able to reach out. Um, knowing that it's not going to be unsafe to come to issues with me. Um, and I think that's where often a lot of people meet challenges because it may not always be safe for constituents to reach out to their MPs where they have to openly talk about their queerness and being afraid that they may get judged or not supported as a result of their identity. Do you have a sort of approach that you think is best effective [00:18:30] when fighting inequality in any sort of area? I think at all points, it's like working with the community on the ground and realizing that, as I said earlier, that we serve as a parliamentary extension of the work being done in the community. And if we're not working with people on the ground to push for issues, then we're kind of in a little bubble here. And I mean, this place. I mean, it is real life, but it's also not [00:19:00] like the way, you know, like the way that people behave in the house, like you, the way that people yell at each other in the house, like you would probably get smacked if you talk to people the way that people talk to each other in the house. Um, and for me, like on so many of the issues I work with, I often am feeding back to groups in the ground fighting for it and they themselves are sort of feeding and suggesting things that I should be doing. And I think that's. That's super useful because a, I have a direct accountability to members of the community on the campaigns that [00:19:30] I'm running, but B, because of that feedback loop, we're able to then, you know, so for a letter makers, an example that I raised about the health requirements, people are able to then come to me and then we're able to work directly on say either. Working to get visibility in the media or to challenge the minister on someone's specific situation and, um, I know it sounds like the whole working with the community sounds naff and maybe like stereotypical, but I'm always quite [00:20:00] surprised at how it's not necessarily the norm and can often feel like the exception, not so much in the Greens, but just, I would say just Parliament more generally. Yeah.

IRN: 3586
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TITLE: Presentations - New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt Display
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VOICES: Bena Jackson; Bill Logan; Chanel Hati; Courtney Johnston; Jane Bruning; Jeremy Naylor; Kjel Griffiths; Michael Bancroft; Rangimoana Taylor; Richard Tankersley; Te Herekiekie Haerehuka Herewini; Tīwhanawhana; Welby Ings
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; 2020s; Bill Logan; Body Positive; Bruce Burnett; Burnett Foundation Aotearoa; Chanel Hati; Courtney Johnston; Daniel Fielding; Dowse Art Museum; Gareth Watkins; Gay Task Force; Georgina Beyer; HIV / AIDS; HIV / AIDS; HIV stigma; HIV transmission; Jane Bruning; Jeremy Naylor; Joe Rich; Kjel Griffiths; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Michael Bancroft; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; Peter Wells; Positive Speakers Bureau; Positive Women Inc; Rangimoana Taylor; Roger Smith; Russell Wells; Stephanie Gibson; Te Herekiekie Haerehuka Herewini; Tom McLean; Tīwhanawhana; Welby Ings; Wellington Gay Task Force; Wellington Pride Festival; Wellington Pride Festival (2023); injection drug user (IDU); rural
DATE: 10 March 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa, 55 Cable Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: Presentations at the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt display. The event was held at the Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa on 10 March 2023. A special thanks to the organisers and participants for allowing this to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: [00:00:30] [00:01:00] Hello to all of you, New Zealanders. You [00:01:30] are the ones who are safe. You are here. I want to thank you all for coming to this important event, Te Papa Tongarewa. Te Papa Tongarewa. Thank you for your mana.[00:02:00] To all, everyone today, we must always remember what happened those many years ago. Those people who at that time were ostracized because they were gay. Those people who [00:02:30] actually fought with us. So that we could be accepted as a community that is very valuable to these islands. Te Papa Tongarewa is all of our, it belongs to all of us. We are just holding it to keep it for future generations. [00:03:00] And when we talk about.. Te maru, te maru o tuanui tō tātou haere nei te Papa Tongarewa, that you are under the shelter of our National Museum. Te Papa Tongarewa. Te Papa is short for Papa Hau, which is like an oblong, um, sacred, uh, treasure box, which we, this treasure box holds the treasures of [00:03:30] our nation. And what we do say is.. He aha ta mea nui? He thangata. He thangata. He thangata. You ask me what is the most important thing in creation, then I say to you, It is the people. It is the people. It is the people. And we, our gay, our lesbian, our transgender people, we are [00:04:00] people. And some people have forgotten that. We are people. Nō reira, e ngā iwi, e ngā mana, e ngā karangarangatanga. Tēnā koutou. Tēnā koutou.[00:04:30] [00:05:00] [00:05:30] Um, our chief executive has joined us on stage and so I just wanted to invite you to say a few, a few words, um, and then we'll [00:06:00] complete the process. So that she has another moment to think about her speech. Um, I just wanted to acknowledge the children, the woman, and the man that passed that are, you know, that are in the memories of the quilts killed her. Well, kia ora tātou. I wasn't actually meant to be at work today, and I tried to just slip in the back quietly, uh, and not be up on the stage, but, um, kia ora. Ko [00:06:30] Courtney Johnston tōku tumu whakarae mo te papa. Um, Sorry, because I have walked in. I don't want to go over anything, but I do want to acknowledge the passing of Georgina Byer, uh, this week, um, as we come together in this moment of, I think what is both, um, commemoration and celebration, you know, of, um, deep sadness and revisiting a time that [00:07:00] we hoped that the, the challenge and the discrimination and the hatred faced by people at the time that this quilt was made, that it was made to stand up to, that it was made to bring people together to provide um, A quilt is a cloak of protection in some ways. It's a sign of love, um, of mourning, but also of resistance, and I think every generation hopes that we will [00:07:30] no longer need these stands, but we find that we keep on having to come together in stands of both resistance and allyship. As well. So, um, it's not the first time I've got to be in the presence of the quilt when I worked out at the Dowse. We brought the quilt out there and met with members of the community and people who had been there at the time. And every time I am struck by.. Just the love and the care that has gone into this [00:08:00] work and the need to keep bringing it out and connecting it with people because our history is so fragile and it is lost so quickly, um, and the experiences of when one generation they can only really be shared by the next generation and the next by coming together to tell stories and to share experiences. So I'm very grateful that we have this opportunity, um, that we get to be the guardians of such an important part of Aotearoa's history and this connection to a global [00:08:30] history. Um, but also to have this chance to keep coming together, to keep remembering, but also to keep turning our eyes forward, uh, standing, I think, in solidarity and with love, um, with sadness, uh, but also, I think, of course, with pride. And some joy and some flamboyance, because, you know, the quilt is also filled with those things as well. So thank you for being here today, and thank you for leading Te Papa being a place where we can gather. Um, and sorry if [00:09:00] that didn't all make sense. Too much sense. But, um, it's, uh, museums are incredible places because we get to be filled with emotion. Um, and to bring people together in these moments never stops being incredibly special. So thank you very much for being here today. Kia ora.[00:09:30] [00:10:00] Holy.[00:10:30] Kiana. Thanks everyone for the beautiful start to this event. Um, my name's Bena. I work here in the public programs team. I'm just gonna run through a little bit of housekeeping for our talks, and then I will introduce. our first speaker today. Um, we have a very incredible lineup of speakers [00:11:00] here. Um, I'm actually amazed. Um, and each of those speakers will have 10 to 15 minutes up here. Um, and then, uh, they'll hand over to the next person. I understand that many of you will be, um, have ducked out of work or other obligations today. So, um, we understand if you need to come and go. Uh, in between talks, please just, um, make your way out as quietly as you can. Um, we'll have a short break about halfway through [00:11:30] and expect that all the talks will wrap up about 1. 30. I understand it's a big day, but there's a lot, there's a lot of amazing people to hear from. Um, and lastly, just some acknowledgements, um, first of all to Ruben from, um, Legans who has put so much into organizing this event and has really brought it together. Um, to all of our speakers, Michael, Bill, Welby, Jane, Cal, Jeremy, um, Chanel, and to Claire and Roger who have also contributed today. Um, it's amazing to have your generosity and [00:12:00] time here. Um, there are a number of organisations who have contributed today as well. The Positive Speakers Bureau, the Lesbian and the Gay Archives, Te Pūranga Takatāpui o Aotearoa and Te Whanau Whanau. Um, everyone from Te Papa who has contributed to this event and to the care of the quilt. And, and of course finally to everyone who has contributed too. Um, and is represented and remembered by the quilt. Um, and not just the four blocks that we have on display here, but, um, all 16, [00:12:30] Hau Pei Te Papa, and, and more elsewhere as well. So I am going to hand over, first of all, to, um, our very first speaker. Michael Bancroft, um, Michael has provided me with an exceptional bio today. Um, Michael Bancroft was a Catholic priest in Auckland in 1988, when asked by a 44 year old Catholic with AIDS to assist him and to conduct his funeral. Thirty five years later, Michael has accompanied over 140 H I v positive, [00:13:00] mainly gay men, and conducted over 100 AIDS related funerals. He became the guardian of the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt in 2003 until 2018, and was responsible for its handover to Tepa in 2012. Um, he came out and le and has sis and since, um, left the priestly ministry in 1999. tested positive for HIV in 2003 and still remains involved with the community. Significantly, um, Michael has not conducted an AIDS related funeral since [00:13:30] 2011. Michael, I'll hand over to you. Michael will introduce the next two speakers. E te Haere mai te Whanganui a Tāra. E te marae te whanau te purangi tapuhi o Aotearoa. Haere mai ki [00:14:00] te kou matua, te whanau, tamariki, manuhiri. Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa. Good morning. Greetings to you all. As you've just heard, I'm Michael. As a funeral celebrant. I get very annoyed when people stand up at microphones and say, I haven't prepared anything, and then go on and on and on. Well, I [00:14:30] prepared, and at 11 o'clock last night I was changing it, in my head, and sitting here just now I'm changing it again. Firstly, I would like to pay tribute and honour the beloved people who are represented on the quilts here present. and those that we are seeing behind us on the screens.[00:15:00] It's not something that I'm proud of, but it is something that I am very privileged by the fact that I could stand here all day going through one after the other and telling you something of their story. But that is just not possible. I encourage you to go onto the website. And read through [00:15:30] the stories that are contained there. And in so doing, I usually say the thank you at the end, but I want to say it at the beginning. To Te Papa for receiving the kaunga of the quilt back in 2012. And to Stephanie Gibson somewhere, yes. That we work together to bring that [00:16:00] about, and all of her team at that time, some of whom are present today, how quickly all those years have passed. And crouched down on the floor here, you have Gareth Watkins, who's recording things. Well, when you look at all those images behind you, Gareth and his partner, Roger, spent three days in [00:16:30] Auckland, way back in about 2011, photographing every single.. So that we have it as part of our heritage. So we have them to thank for the beauty of the gift that is held in that fashion. I was present also when many of these quilts were made. Though I never actually got to make any [00:17:00] of them. Over on the On the left hand side here, the second one up is one that commemorates and remembers Russell Wells. You may not have known Russell, but most of you will have heard of his brother Peter. I was conducting a funeral of my very first [00:17:30] person that was named, or wasn't named, but Peter, in my introduction. And this person came up to me and said, That was a bloody good service. Will you do mine? And Russell was the second one. Followed by so many more. I brought with me a photograph of my parents.[00:18:00] Taken just three months before my mother died in 1976. Followed 11 months later by my father. Both of them through illness, 52 at the time. But that is not my parents. That is.. The persons that are contained in this image, [00:18:30] just as when you look at these quilts, they hold the memories of all the beautiful people that have been part of our lives, part of your families, brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers, grandparents, lovers and partners. And [00:19:00] each of them is precious. Because they hold the memories for us. Think back over the last few weeks, television has showed us scores of people clutching, photographs, muddied, ruined, and people saying We've lost everything but the photos of their [00:19:30] families that they've taken out of those muddy waters and the sludge and slush in so many parts of rah. They now hold those ever more precious. And that's why these quilts here, and the ones that are held by Te Papa, are so precious, because they help us in telling [00:20:00] the story, the story of the people that they are shown. And the quilt project, I could, again, give a whole day's lecture on the start of it. But it began on the 27th of November in San Francisco in 1985. But down the back here, there is a quilt in the name of Peter [00:20:30] Cuthbert, 1988. I never knew him, but some of you did, because he was here in Wellington. And he was the first person in Aotearoa, New Zealand, to have a quilt made in his honour. And directly behind him is one for Tom McLean, the author who, as far as I know, wrote the first what I'll call local AIDS related book [00:21:00] called If I Should Die. And right here, where we are, here in Wellington, the very beginning of what we are doing today. And why did people make quilts? Because way back in those days in the United States. Cemeteries wouldn't take bodies. Funeral directors wouldn't bury [00:21:30] them. People didn't know what to do with them. And if you think, yeah, that was America. No, come back right here. Some of you will know the days of Ward 10 at Auckland City Hospital. It was known as the AIDS ward. And just like COVID in recent times. It was masks, gloves, PPE gear, signs on doors, [00:22:00] patients referred to as AIDS victims. And if you thought there was privacy, no. In those days, the patient room lists were in reception. You'll remember those days generally. And everyone who was HIV had a purple dot by their name. So once you got to know what the purple dot meant, you could just walk around and, [00:22:30] oh yeah, that one's got it, that one's got it. And that's what people did. The AIDS victims, as they called them. And it didn't stop there. People died. They were placed in a body bag. Removed. Into a coffin. No embalming. No viewing. No personal family farewells. [00:23:00] Many families just wanted it all to be kept hush hush. I was often told, Don't mention AIDS at the funeral, Michael. Don't wear a red ribbon, because they'll all know then. Because that was the days, remember, when every film star and other person would appear on TV wearing a red ribbon. But it became an AIDS identifier, [00:23:30] part of the stigma. I remember one rural family Ahem. where they ordered that there be no pofters at our son's funeral. That was how they said it. And the church happened to say, we don't want anyone to know we've held an AIDS funeral here either.[00:24:00] So no wonder people wanted to make quilts to remember. Now there are 16 of these blocks, and about 10. that are held by the AIDS Foundation, now known as the Burnett Foundation in Auckland, which are still displayed and available to people for small little [00:24:30] gatherings. During the early 2000s, As the numbers of AIDS deaths started to decline, so did the making of quilts. It wasn't a big problem in New Zealand, but our closest neighbours, Australia, when I last visited them during one of their displays, they had a hundred [00:25:00] and twenty blocks. And they couldn't display them. They, they were having to spend thousands of dollars to store them and to move them around. Because they were so big and so bulky. And in America, I know I've got it here somewhere, there were something like 94, 000 of them. Can you [00:25:30] imagine that? 94, 000. And I think there is.. Um, Welby, in that book that your story is in, I think it's got the photo of the Washington Memorial. Yes, Welby's nodding. Have a look at that, and you'll see the whole of the Washington Memorial, where they displayed them. So, once upon a time, there was [00:26:00] AIDS, there still is. But fortunately, the gift of medication, treatments, General care means that there are people now here in Aotearoa who have been living with the virus for 35, almost 40 years.[00:26:30] There was a time I would never have stood in a gathering like this and said, I'm positive. I don't look it, do I? Plenty of guts. I haven't faded away. But this year is my 20th anniversary. And my specialist looks at me and says, Mike, you don't have to worry about being HIV positive, you need to do something about your stomach [00:27:00] before you have a heart attack. Well, I've had that three times or a stroke, hopefully not. You know, but that is how, in a sense, we've, it's kind of almost needed to be talked about anymore. So, as we gather today, with gratitude for [00:27:30] people who put their memories together, so that today, 35 years later, we can gather and remember. and keep them alive. We are grateful to them, but to people like Benna and Ruben and the team here at Te Papa and [00:28:00] others who unbeknown to me have contributed to today, who help our whole nation to be reminded. Because now we are kind of not in the AIDS era anymore. Now we say, after COVID. You know, we relate to things. And yet, you've only got to open up your map and you find out, the [00:28:30] world map that is. And you find out that there are still millions and millions of people being infected and dying. Thanks to Burnett Foundation, New Zealand AIDS Foundation of the past. We are fortunate that we are at where we're at, and we have the Foundation and others, Legands, keeping part of that [00:29:00] history of our community in our faces. So once again, thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you to Papa Leggings and those of you who put this together today and I'm here till they kick me out at three o'clock. If anyone wants to ask about any of the quilts, I just didn't have time, unfortunately, to go [00:29:30] one by one through them. Keep the memories alive in your hearts and your living. Thank you. Our next speaker today. [00:30:00] is someone I've spent most of my adult life hearing the name of and met today. The well, one and only Bill Logan. Bill was involved in setting up the AIDS Support Network and the AIDS Foundation and was spokesperson for the Wellington Gay Task Force during the 1985 86 homosexual law reform campaign.[00:30:30] He's been involved in queer politics ever since, now mostly on trans rights. He's a councillor and celebrant, and we will now.. be privileged to share some of the gift that he has been to the community. Tēnā[00:31:00] koutou katoa. Thank you very much, Michael, for that kind introduction. And thank you to the people who've arranged this from all the different organisations coming together. AIDS is a story of love, of death, of pride, of progress. It's a story of tragedy. AIDS ended [00:31:30] many wonderful, good, young lives. Others of us who did not die, even quite resilient people. were left quite scarred by it. But it's also a story which involves some triumph because these were lives which overall made our world a far better place than it otherwise would have been. Peter Cuthbert's quilt, the first of them, is here. He and his partner Daniel [00:32:00] Fielding made a huge impact on the gay community in this city. Arthur's quilt is here. He was a towering figure in this town. Others with quilts here were more private. Uh, they represent the vast population, uh, who were affected by AIDS. People, uh, might call them ordinary. Now that's, that's hardly right. The [00:32:30] quilt. It represents more, though, than the wonderful individuals who have panels here. It depicts a phase in our history. Uh, it represents a generation, uh, of gay men, a generation which was devastated, but which also built the foundation for a far better world than there had been. The story begins for me, uh, as I was coming to terms with Being gay, 40 years [00:33:00] ago, at the very beginning of the 80s, until about that time, until the beginning of the 80s, it was a rare man and an unusually brave man who came out as gay. Those who came out in those earlier years have a hugely important and special place in queer history. The, the 80s though, as the 80s began, homosexuality was still, it was still, [00:33:30] Socially pretty unacceptable, but, and it was still, I suppose, a bar to progress in most careers, but there was, by this time, uh, starting to be an increasing sense of hope among us. Uh, uh, uh, there had been some good partying and some good fun for years, of course. Before, it had been quite discreet. Uh, it had involved considerable fears of being found out. [00:34:00] And it included small numbers of people. But by the beginning of the 80s, things were changing, with much larger numbers of people getting involved, uh, in gay activities. Much less fear, much more hope for a brighter future. I was involved in the Gay Switchboard, which also included some of the young. Gay students on the campus up at the hill, [00:34:30] up the hill here at the, uh, I was a very junior member of the staff there. And we were all reading articles and hearing stories, uh, of this mysterious gay plague in America. And I was asked to facilitate, uh, a meeting, uh, to seriously discuss what it was all about. Perhaps 10 or 12 of us [00:35:00] met in a science seminar room, uh, with a guy from the Department of Health, uh, who had been following these developments, a bloke called Dr. John Clements. Actually, Dr. Clements couldn't tell us very much. Yes, there did seem to be something happening, something involving gay men getting a variety of different cancers and infections and.. Dying rather rapidly, but [00:35:30] nobody really knew what was happening, or even if there was a single underlying cause. He didn't know if it was likely to find its way to New Zealand, and he thought, yes, it was something to be kept an eye on by the health authorities and the medical profession. But we were frightened, uh, but this was, this was a long way away, and we told each other. that it affected only [00:36:00] a very small number of people. As time went on, uh, it became more difficult to ignore. I, for one, however, remained in denial as long as I possibly could. I guess that meeting that we had must have been in 1982, and it really cannot have been so very much later. that the gay community had to start confronting the reality. Uh, what came [00:36:30] to be known as AIDS was on its way here. The science developed, we learned about HIV, the virus which causes AIDS, and we learned that condoms were hugely protective. Bruce Burnett. came back from America and started organizing us, working with Phil Parkinson in Wellington. They approached me and badgered me to get involved. Uh, there [00:37:00] was a dual focus, uh, on prevention and on care for people with AIDS. And we set up the AIDS Support Network, which became the AIDS Foundation, uh, and now has been so appropriately renamed. The Burnett Foundation. This, this was a terrifying time, because we knew so little. AIDS itself was terrifying, but the [00:37:30] homophobic and sexphobic panic which AIDS generated in the community was even more terrifying. And we as a community had to prepare ourselves for what was about to come. We had to prepare our community. And we had to prepare our medical advisors. Phil Parkinson, who is a remarkable man, uh, would give me a regular pile of readings, including from the [00:38:00] New England Medical Journal. And I would take them, uh, to the main gay doctor. In Wellington at the time, John Miller, it was partly to get him to explain them to me, uh, but he was partly to ensure that he was up to speed on the subject. It, it wasn't long before the first guy, uh, with AIDS arrived here right at the moment, uh, that the social panic was moving toward its height.[00:38:30] This guy's name was Gary. He came back home to Wellington from Australia quite ill. His family was freaked out. The media found out. They freaked out. The medical officer of health found out. She freaked out. And, inevitably, many of us were freaked out too. Luckily, Gary, when he arrived in Wellington, immediately rang the gay switchboard. And we were able to do some [00:39:00] calming down. Gary needed a doctor, so I took him to see Dr. John Miller, the doctor I had been reading medical journal articles with. It was Saturday, and we had a cup of tea around John's kitchen table, and I left them to talk. Later, later John rang me, and he confessed, sheepishly, that after Gary had [00:39:30] left, he had boiled the cup. Which he had drunk out of. Now John knew this was silly, but he needed to be sure. The fear of AIDS had led the man who actually knew more about AIDS than almost anyone else in Wellington to become completely irrational in the face of the fear, of that fear. [00:40:00] That irrational fear of AIDS was soon to lead to some of the things that Michael was talking about. Hospitals putting people with AIDS into isolation wards. People with AIDS having to use disposable cutlery. And having medical staff wear sort of space suit costumes. Fears of catching AIDS in a lift or off doorknobs. [00:40:30] Families feared gay sons. This was a period in which it was quite terrifying to have AIDS. Not only were people with AIDS dying very quickly after diagnosis, but they often lived really very difficult lives, cut off from their families and subject to reactions of terrible fear and abuse. We did our best to undercut the [00:41:00] fear and abuse and support people with AIDS to live with dignity and care, but it was a difficult time. This wave of homophobia and AIDS phobia also helped to fuel the 1985 86 campaign against homosexual law reform. Norman Jones, the Member of Parliament leading the campaign against us, spouted some of the nastiest bile that had been heard in New Zealand public [00:41:30] discourse. Thugs on.. street demonstrations wore t shirts with the slogan gay plus gay equals AIDS. If you think about it, it might have been not have been an entirely sane decision to mount a campaign for for homosexual law reform in the midst of an AIDS epidemic. And in the midst of its attendant panic, but just as our opponents claimed that, uh, lifting the criminal sanctions against [00:42:00] gay men would spread HIV and made, we made the point that lifting the criminal sanctions was the only way to encourage people at risk to seek advice. Ultimately, homosexual law reform was not only a matter of human rights, but also a necessary public health measure. So the story of the early stages of the AIDS epidemic in this country [00:42:30] were woven together with the Campaign for Homosexual Law Reform. Tom's story, and Michael talked a little about Tom, uh, is so much a part of that. Tom McLean was a little Scotch freelance journalist and tarot card reader who hung out in the Gay Community Centre in Bullcott Street, which was the headquarters of the Gay Task Force. Uh, it seems as I look back that that winter of [00:43:00] 1985 was unusually bleak and cold. But perhaps it was the social and political atmosphere that saved my memory of the weather. The fundamentalists were collecting for their petition and people were signing it. Uh, in churches and schools and even mental hospitals. There was pressure to sign, and people signed with great gusto, some of them many times. It was the largest petition [00:43:30] ever in the history of New Zealand. It was highly funded, massive campaign. There was no way we could match it. But Tommy did what Tommy could, and Tommy was out on Lambton Quay. Lunchtime, after lunchtime, after bitterly cold lunchtime. He'd come back and thaw out in front of our heater in the gay community centre. And he'd cough a lot. And we were worried about him. And we [00:44:00] encouraged him to go and see Dr. John. He had a test, and he had HIV. Tom's main income was from tarot card reading in a market that was just across the road here on the corner of Cable Street and Taranaki Street. The owner of that market learnt that Tommy had AIDS and kicked him out of his store. Well, we had a meeting with the owner and told him that we thought we could put the market out of [00:44:30] business if he failed to reverse that decision. We thought we could attract a few people to a demonstration or two outside his market. The market owner said it was all a big mistake and misunderstanding and Tom was welcomed back. The story of Paul Noble and Philip Bailey, whose quilts are here, is another story of where AIDS and homosexual law [00:45:00] reform intersect. Uh, Paul and Philip, uh, were a beautiful, athletic couple. Uh, they'd been a hairdressing salon in Cube Street. Philip the hairdresser. I met them when they rang me up very early in the homosexual law reform campaign, before Fran Wild's bill had been introduced. But, we already knew [00:45:30] that there were going to be important moves. At that time, there were not many people who were in a position to take roles as public representatives for our cause. Many felt too young or inexperienced. Others had jobs to lose. I was a Marxist revolutionary in my early thirties with a little bit of experience speaking and no professional prospects. So I ended up on television. My first experience on television was [00:46:00] pretty terrifying. Uh, it was in many respects the central event of my coming out. Uh, and um, I've been asked to respond to a statement against homosexual law reform by the local cardinal. Anyway, an hour or two after this interview went to air, and just after a call I got from my puritanical maiden aunt, Philip, the hairdresser, rang me. He started off by [00:46:30] thanking me for doing the interview. and for representing the gay community. Then he went on and said very, very sternly that I should not ever go on television again without getting my hair checked by him or Paul and trimmed if necessary. So I got, I got to know Philip and Paul quite well. Uh, they would actually ring me up every few weeks for me to come in and get my hair.[00:47:00] The highest point of the campaign of homophobia and AIDS phobia, uh, that, uh, we experienced was what we called the Nuremberg Rally, outside parliament on the 24th of September, 1985. This was, and let me see if I can get a picture of it. Ah, here it is. Uh, this was a highly staged event, uh, [00:47:30] organized by the Coalition of Concerned Citizens to present the anti gay petition, uh, the homophobes had been working on. They rallied under the slogan for God, for country, for family. It was really a pretty fearsome thing. Several of the people commemorated in the quilts. played an active role, uh, on that day, uh, jumping the [00:48:00] barriers. One of them, a lovely friend and activist and artist, Neil Costello, uh, who designed some of the most effective posters of our campaign. And they were Paul and Philip. Uh, and as you can see, they were arrested. That's Paul at the back and Philip in the front. And there's another photo, which I'm rather fond of.[00:48:30] Those two photos were taken by Kevin Green. With the Nuremberg Rally, the homophobes had overplayed their hand. Middle New Zealand didn't like it. And the tide shifted in our direction. This was a time of massive conversation in families and workplaces, in sports clubs and bars. [00:49:00] People discovered that they had gay relatives and gay friends. They learned about AIDS and HIV. They're all willing of hearts and minds. There's a sea change in our favor. And within less than a year, the first Major step in homosexual law reform got through parliament with the decriminalization of male homosexuality. And the way was prepared for the later changes. Later that year, Paul and Philip went to the Gay [00:49:30] Grames in San Francisco. I think they both won medals. Philip was a diver. Paul got a medal for the shot put. In those times, there were some good parties. But the virus continued. Friends died. Tommy was writing a book, If I Should Die. It was about his life with AIDS. He became very ill. He finished his book [00:50:00] and it was sent to the publishers. What he wanted was to live long enough to see his book published and to die at home. A group gathered to support him living at home. Some friends, some volunteers, lesbians, Christians. Well, his book was published, and he was there when it was launched by the, uh, then Minister of Health, a very young Helen Clark.[00:50:30] And then, Tom died very peacefully at home, very early in the morning, three days later. As Tom instructed, There were no bagpipes at his funeral, and the group who look after Tom met again to make the quilt that you see here, and that's over there. There were lots of groups caring for people dying of AIDS around the country. Groups with few other connections [00:51:00] among themselves except through the person who was dying. Caring for someone who is dying can be a profound collective experience. For a time, making a quilt was one of the grieving rituals that we had that helped us adjust to ending what we had experienced. I don't remember the names of the people who are in this picture. The older woman was Honor, I think. Honor Lee, [00:51:30] if I'm not mistaken, a Christian woman from Northland. But they are representative of the much larger group around Tom and that team is representative of many teams around the country. And the virus went on, with friends dying around us. Philip died, Paul died. There were four Wellington guys I knew well. who flattered together in Sydney. Sweet, generous, clever, lively young [00:52:00] men. They had some great times. On visits to Sydney, I stayed with them twice. Jerome, my partner back then, and I did Mardi Gras together one year with them. A magical time. Three of those guys died in the 80s or early 90s. The fourth was so shattered that, uh, he became almost a hermit. I made a list of names I can remember [00:52:30] who died of AIDS. 45 names I can remember. The people who should be together with me in our rocking chairs are just not around. But they lived. They partied. And they made a better world. [00:53:00] So I want to introduce Will B. Ings now. Um, he, uh, he was expelled from Te Awa Mutu College for being gay in the 1970s. As an activist, he was heavily involved in the 1980s and 90s homosexual rights campaigns, during which time he was arrested multiple times. And he's currently a professor of narrative design. A filmmaker and an author. [00:53:30] Pleased to welcome my friend, Will Beings, up here. Okay. Kia ora mai tatou. Na mihi nui aku pia kotou katoa. E na mana, e na reo, e na mate, e na whanau aotearoa. Tena koutou, tena koutou, tena koutou katoa. E te pepeha ko, [00:54:00] um, um, um, Maungutauturi, te maunga ko Arapuni, Um, I'm very humbled. You know, I, I got here a bit early and I walked in. I thought I was, they flew me down on Flash airplane Lin, and, um, I thought I'll be [00:54:30] cool. And I, I walked in and my mate's quilt was over there and I wasn't. All right. And I think, um, uh, Let me tell you about this, the tap room was a shithole. The tap room was a, a little pub, uh, in Auckland. And I was, uh, I was up north, and I came down, so I'd come off a farm. And that's where [00:55:00] I met Ian. So, um, as a, as a rural gay man, I didn't really fit in very well into, I didn't feel I fitted in very well in the gay world. And, uh, To show how naïve I was when I went in, the smell of emul We used emul nitrate on the farm to, when we were, um, hunting possums, when we were killing possums, because you use cyanide paste and if you breathed it in, you had to race the heart to get yourself a little toxic, this was before Osh, and, [00:55:30] um, and, uh, and I went in and I just sort of smelled like And that's not the good, that's not how you start a conversation in a gay pub, it really isn't. But here's this guy, and I looked down on his pants, and he had a mud line just up, which would have come from wearing gumboots. And I asked him how the milk fever was, and he knew what it was, and he's the first man I ever fell in love with. with [00:56:00] and uh, he wore brushed cotton pajamas to bed and he gave me a poem for my birthday and my politics turned on its head because I had fallen in love and um, I still miss him. I still miss him. So I wasn't going to make quilts. I thought it was for, you know, I thought it was a whole lot of kind of public grieving and I'm quite a private [00:56:30] man. But, um, we, we lived on a, a, a farm, he was a farm worker, and I used to, you know, I had another job, but I was working on the farm with him, and, and, uh, the quilt I made for him was, so I can't sew, I'm crap at it, and, um, so I, but I could paint, so I painted a, a portrait of him, and, um, Around the edge you'll see over there is the tow rope we used for our tractor to pull the car through the mud. And, um, [00:57:00] that's baling quine, that blue, that's baling quine around the edge of it. And those are four views of four seasons out our windows, um, of our house. Um, It's something that a lot of people don't realize is the proportion, the size of the quilt is the size of a burial plot, and, um, Some things, you know, listening, listening to both of you, and, um, remembering some things that have faded.[00:57:30] I, I remember, um, taking a, uh, a friend in the back of my Land Rover, trying to find an undertaker who would.. Who prepare his body. We couldn't find anybody. You know, and um, there's a, there's an invisible part to these quilts. Beyond the love and commemoration, there are invisible things. Um, [00:58:00] and um, Kevin, sorry, Ian, we'll see in a moment why Kevin comes up. Ian, um, when he gave me this birthday present, which was a poem, which is not what you give a pookie out to a farm kid, you know, but um, I'll put it on his desk. Quilt, and um, it's from a poem by Yates, it's a poem by Yates, and the old name is [00:58:30] Arrech, which is for the cloths of heaven. Arrech is a, an obscure Irish god of death, but also of fire. And um, it's faded now, you can't even read it. I've always thought this is what the quilts were, that they were a gesture of love. It said, um, had I the heavens embroidered cloth in raw silk? [00:59:00] and silver light, the blue and the dim and the dark cloths of night and light and half light. Well, I would lay those cloths under your feet, but I, being poor, I have only my dreams. I have spread my dreams under your feet. Tread softly, [00:59:30] because you tread on my dreams. Referred to the laying out of these quilts, they normally lie on the ground. And people walk past them. And I can never get out of my mind that they are dreams. They are the things that go, reach beyond words. They are the grief and love and joy and hope and pain. And we don't walk on them, [01:00:00] we walk past them. So, um, the quilt was a hard thing for me to make. Because I'm not a public person and, um, uh, grief for me is something that happens when you hold your pillow in bed at night and go to sleep. Um, but I, I realized that our, our men's lives [01:00:30] were going to disappear because we had lived a history of being erased and for so long as we remain invisible, we remain vulnerable. Boy, um, I undertook to make a quilt, but then, as I said, I'm crap at sewing, so, um, I, um, went to a workshop, these things were amazing, they were, like, nobody tells a drag queen [01:01:00] how to sew, so, and they had pinched most of the fabric for their quilts, you know, but, and, but there were mums and sisters. And, um, friends, this was a collection of a whole spectrum of people, and they would help you. And I saw that intersection between love and grief. And it was a community that had been brought together by [01:01:30] somebody who was no longer here. And mums became mums of all of us who'd been thrown out of home. They became loyal. We became the new sons and they became our moms and our sisters. And even within our community, which is not a single thing, it's hugely divided. It was, then it still is. Bridges were made between those things because of love. And, um, you know, [01:02:00] Michael talked about something that we're, we're, we're team still sends a shiver down my spine. So this was the AIDS ward and we were getting our men out of there as fast as we could over to the hospice and do a voice. road because nurses could refuse to treat, they could refuse to treat you. And it was so stigmatizing. It was such a terrible thing. And, um, and we were trying to find homes because [01:02:30] in the end, it doesn't matter how much love you have in your heart. You can't nurse someone at the end. You can't, you're holding a body in the shower and they can't stand up and you can no longer, no matter how much you love, you can't, you can't do it anymore. You have to have help. You're fucking not going for help at Ward B, you know, at Ward 10. You, you, you go and find people in your ward of [01:03:00] wider family. And I don't just mean queer people, I mean the people who love and support us. And those hospices were amazing places. And, um, um, and to give an example of this, of how toxic the other side was. I was teaching woodwork, um, at the time I made this, this quilt. And, um, uh, we had, uh, the, the, the enjoy around us. My age was really high, and, um, these guys knew I [01:03:30] was gay, like I was out, but they still kind of told the joke at the meeting about what's age, it's an arse injected death sentence. There was this stuff that was considered funny at the time, and you sit there scowling at them, and they go, just a joke. But I always remember the, um, cause I hadn't heard the example you gave, but I'd been having a cup of tea, and, uh, I took my cup out to the kitchen, and, uh, Came back [01:04:00] and then I thought, oh shit, I didn't clean it. I just left it out there. So I went out and they were scouring it out with jiff, you know. And you, you, you, the thing is in the moment, you just have to be strong. There's no room to be weak, but it kind of is cumulative. I think of myself as a strong man, but I can't watch movies around AIDS. I [01:04:30] can't, I can't do it. It's just one of the few things, and I, it's hard to come in here and see. The man we love, on a quilt that's cracked, now and, anyway, um, so you know, you throw yourself into protest, and um, and at the time one of the things that we forget is that many of these people [01:05:00] are vibrant, living, powerful people who help move our society to a better place. I'm working on a, a documentary at the moment about the, the period of the law reform, and looking back through archives and going, oh god, he was dead within two years. All these people who helped shape this world, where we can sit in the National Museum and talk from our heart with each other, the pictures that we have of them, [01:05:30] they're the residue of something that had a terrible cost. And um, so I'll just leave with this. My second partner also died of AIDS in 1998, and uh, Kevin held the national title in the triple jump in New Zealand, and uh, he, I made that quilt at home, there's no sewing Um, but he, he [01:06:00] used to talk about in, in, in triple jumping, everything in the jump is about the run up. It's about the run up to the edge of it. And he said, this is the hardest run up to the longest jump. And that's what I tried to do with the quilt. To give him, give him the wings to pass over. And in a way to give [01:06:30] us the wings for the generations to come. To pass through. And if we have a Critical facility, so we don't allow disinformation and misinformation to create horrors of things that need common sense and balance. If we don't wind ourselves up on crack, and actually in a time of crisis, we need truth and we need strength, and we need Aroha, [01:07:00] we need what's in this room. So for all the things that are unseen that you do in that capacity, thank you, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.[01:07:30] Thanks again, everyone, for being here today. Um, I'm going to introduce the first of our second group of speakers today. Um, we're very, uh, honored to have Jane running here. Jane has been the National Coordinator for Positive Women, um, for 19 years. She has a Master's in Social Practice with her thesis being on stigma of women living with HIV. Jane was the Asia Pacific Delegate on the UNAIDS Coordinating Board. for three years, and [01:08:00] in 2017, um, was made Officer of the New Zealand Order of Merit in the Queen's Birthday Honours for her work with women and HIV in Aotearoa. Um, Jane is going to speak now, and she will introduce two speakers from the, uh, Positive Speakers Bureau, uh, after her, and then we'll have one more. And we'll wrap up. Thank you. Applause I'm so glad we had that break because I'm still kind of settling from [01:08:30] some amazing speakers. So it just really takes you back. Um, as you've heard, I'm the National Coordinator for Positive Women. Um, The organization started in the late, um, eighties, early nineties, um, when women started to be diagnosed with HIV. One of our founding members, um, was a queer woman and, um, you know, uh, there are no diagnosis of [01:09:00] HIV transmission between women and women in New Zealand, so it's actually one of the sort of safest relationships one can have. However, there's other ways that people can get HIV and, um, our member got I contracted HIV through sharing, injecting drug equipment. She's no longer with us. Um, she passed away with AIDS, along with many of the other founding members. Um, but we still have a [01:09:30] few of those founding members with them, with us. And while I was not a founding member, um, I was diagnosed with, um, HIV in 1988. And, um, so I've been living with HIV for 35 years. And been very, very lucky to have made it through those years. My experience was a little bit different. I was living in Africa at the time. And it was very much a heterosexual plague there. [01:10:00] Um, and a lot of poverty and a lot of dying and a lot of deaths. So, while it was different, it was also similar. One of the things that, you know, the reasons why I'm still here anyway is because of the medications. And, um, in 96, uh, science came, broke through and we've got some amazing medications nowadays. And these [01:10:30] medications, what they do is they actually reduce the virus. So that it comes to what scientists call an undetectable viral load. So that it's sitting there almost dormant. And what that means is that it's not affecting the person's body. So the person's immune system is doing great and they can live well. Also what it does is stops transmission of HIV as well. So people with HIV now can have unprotected sex without a condom [01:11:00] and not pass that on. They can have children and not pass HIV on to their children. And this is a huge breakthrough. I think it's something that a lot of people don't understand. They know there's medications and that, you know, people are living, but they don't really understand the further implications of that. So science has really gone a long way. But the biggest barrier that we still have is stigma. And stigma, [01:11:30] even in this day, you know, considering it's been 40 years of HIV, it hasn't moved very much. And what is it? Stigma. What is it? It comes from fear, it comes from ignorance. But mostly it's usually people's moral judgments. And because HIV is sexually transmitted, it's so much easier to have moral judgments around that. Um, and so, it's very hard. What, what [01:12:00] happens then for when someone contracts HIV and is that all of that societal connotations, you know, you're bad, there's something wrong with you because you've got age, you must.. AIDS, you must be promiscuous, you're gay, you're a drug user, sex worker, all of these things. What happens then to the person living with HIV is that they take that on board. And I recall very strongly, um, when I was [01:12:30] diagnosed with AIDS, was in those days, I was always the only woman. Wherever I went, I moved back to England not long after I was diagnosed. And everywhere I went, I was the only woman. All the support networks were gay men, which were great because it had someone to talk to. But I kept thinking to myself, there must be something really bad about me because I'm the only woman with this. And, um, And I left my partner and came back to New Zealand in, [01:13:00] um, 94. And I came back because I thought I was going to die, because that's what I was told. And I had a ten year old son and I wanted to introduce him to my family. So that when I died, he'd have somewhere to, somewhere to be. Um, but I also made a conscious decision that I would not get into another relationship. Firstly because I was going to die. But then when I realized I wasn't going to die, I kept thinking. Who's gonna want this? You know, it's like, I'm dirty. Um, [01:13:30] I don't feel sexy. I didn't, I stopped dancing because I felt that dancing was being sexy and I didn't want to be sexy. So it tore away at my own self esteem. And I'm not unusual in this. This is quite common for all people living with HIV. And so, what we call that is an internalized stigma, so that the person, you live with it within yourself, and you actually, you, you believe all of the societal accusations, and you, you [01:14:00] become that as well, and you, you feel bad about yourself. And often, um, people living with HIV will go through depression. Um, it's very common, um, for people living with HIV to go through depression. So then we have, that's the internalized stigma that happens. So you've got the societal stigma and then you've got this internalized stigma that you're living with. But then if you add on to that, you're living with HIV and you're gay. [01:14:30] Gay has its own stigma in society. Living with HIV and I'm a drug user. Drug using also has stigma. I'm a sex worker. I'm a person who contracted it through just having sex. You're promiscuous. So, for someone who then, say, has HIV, is gay, has, is a sex worker, and uses drugs, we have these layers and layers and layers [01:15:00] of stigma that that person has to deal with. content with. Again, we get, the biggest reaction to that is usually, um, you know, people feel ostracized, they feel alone, they feel lonely, they keep, keep the secret to themselves. It becomes a secret. I myself kept HIV a secret except to my closest family for 17 years. Um, it's only when I started working for Positive Women that I actually came out, so to speak. It was the [01:15:30] biggest relief, actually. Holding those secrets is often what is the biggest burden to us. I think being out and being proud and living who we are has its advantages and it really does help with the mental health. So, just, um, I'm probably going to leave it with that because I just really wanted to highlight that, yes, okay, it's fine. You know, I've been living with HIV for 35 years, you know, [01:16:00] I've got a few side effects from the drugs, and I'm getting old and grey, which I hate, and wrinkled, but, um, besides that, there's still a whole lot of other stuff that sits with people. Getting an HIV diagnosis today, even though the person knows they're going to go on medication and they're not going to die, is still a traumatic experience for that person, and it needs care, and it needs counselling, and it needs.. And so I guess I just want to put out, I'm sure I'm speaking to the [01:16:30] converted here, but please just, you know, help with that stigma, the fight against stigma. And the best way to remove that is to talk about it, to talk about HIV, to educate people, so people are not ignorant. Thank you for that. Um, I'm gonna next, um, part of what Positive Women does is we actually train up people living with HIV to go out and speak to the community. And, um, [01:17:00] so, you know, we really believe in, um, nothing about us without us. And we believe that people living with HIV should be in the forefront of educating the community. And it's also empowering for people who live with HIV to actually be the people that can go out and speak. And so, um, the next two speakers that are coming up to speak are from the Positive Speakers Bureau. And so I'd just like to introduce Kel, who's about to come up. And Kel's gonna tell I'm not going to say much more because I think [01:17:30] Kel can introduce herself. But, big welcome for Kel. Thank you. Applause God, it is bright up here. I should have put suntan lotion on. Hi, my name is Kel. Uh, my pronouns are Um, and I've been living with HIV for 15 years. [01:18:00] Uh, I live in a country too, so I'm another country girl. Um, so I was pretty ignorant when I was diagnosed. I didn't know. Uh, much about it. I wasn't in the gay community, so there was no education in the hetero community except for the, the cruel jokes, like people say, you know, about gay people. So, [01:18:30] uh, when I contracted HIV, I did so, so my partner and I, my boyfriend and I could lose the condom. Um, uh, it was my first STI. Um, sexually transmitted disease, and yeah, it's the worst. Um, so, I spent a lot of, a lot of days in a drunken stupor, not really [01:19:00] feeling like it was my fault, but feeling like I was cursed. You know, there was, um, you know, all the, all the small minded.. Uh, feeling that comes with living in a place like Upper Hutt. Um, you know, the Akataro is in a rural place there, so not, not really in the city. And, uh, I, I didn't [01:19:30] do too well for, for quite a few years, um, with the drink and drugs. And, you know, put myself to sleep with a bottle. Should have just done that. It would be less, uh, damaging. Um, so, I, um. I got to a really, really low point. The doctors said, well, you'll make old bones. You know, the medication is, is great [01:20:00] nowadays, you know. But I felt like death. And I thought they were telling me, you know, like the placebo effect. Um, and I got sicker and sicker and.. Yeah, it was harder and harder to hide it. My, my, my dad had an accident and he had PTSD at that stage. And both of my brothers were going through nasty divorces. And [01:20:30] so I kept it secret. Uh, you know, my, my mum felt very betrayed seven years later when, when I did tell her. But, um. Yeah, it was a bad place to go, you know, like, I call it the sick sheep syndrome, where we know we're sick, so we hide away from society, and, uh, so it all came to a head, and, uh, [01:21:00] and one day I started pissing blood. You know, and being, being a trans woman by then, you know, I, I hoped it was my period, but, um, my kidneys had failed, and, uh, that was why I felt like I was gonna die, so, so I've come, I've come right from that, um, and I realized how ignorant I was once I did join, um, um, um, [01:21:30] You know, the positive bureaus and the, um, the AIDS Foundation for counselling. Um, yeah, and I started to come out of my chrysalis, so to speak. You know, I've been transgender for 20 years. Um, uh, And in that time, I was, um, you know, super introverted, I wouldn't look at anyone, and I'd wear a cap, [01:22:00] and wear black clothes, and yeah, yeah, I didn't have a friend in the world. Um, but, but through the help of the, what then, the AIDS Foundation, I, I, You know, became a colourful person. I feel like I might be a bit too colourful today. But, you know. Um, so through the counselling, I [01:22:30] began to get the feeling that I was quite fortunate. I didn't have to pay, you know, 200 an hour for a counsellor. You know, because I had HIV. I got, I got counselling. So it's a good thing. Uh, then another good thing. Was that I had peers finally, um, you know, and, and we had a little support group where, you know, we have learned to be honest about our own [01:23:00] stuff. It, it became a real asset to learn. Learn about myself to, to grow within myself, um, and so yeah, I had therapy friends. Uh, it wasn't until my, my, um, well, my, my counselor who became a good friend, Brenda Little, um, put me onto a support [01:23:30] system, um, being transgender. I didn't get, uh, the support that males or females got. Um, so, yeah, I got to the Positive Speakers Bureau and I met the esteemed Jane Bruning. She's a lovely, lovely lady. And, and a very brilliant man, Jonathan Smith. And, and I, you know, proceeded to learn how to [01:24:00] speak with 14 other people. And during, during that time, I, uh, I found out that I had peers, and I had people who thought like me, you know, I thought there must have been a country overseas where people were tall and blonde and effeminate, and I'd fit in there. Um, but yeah, it turned out I had a female brain, [01:24:30] and I, um, I found some really good lifelong friends. One sitting hunched up in the front, obviously feeling my emotion, Heather. Um, and when she was diagnosed, she had about, um, you know, like, I've got a CD4 count of 1, 300, and that's your fighter cells. She had a, she had a CD4 count of HIV.[01:25:00] AIDS is still out there, but in New Zealand now, there aren't people dying of AIDS, touch wood, and um, you know, so, to, to, um, to show that we are changing, then, I, I love that the, the Burnett Foundation changed to take AIDS out of their name. Because, you [01:25:30] know, that's, uh, that's what people have in their heads. That's what people think of when they hear AIDS, is sick people, and like you've seen before, before me, you know, it's a bit daunting to speak here with all these.. People, peers that I've known for the years that I've been in the industry and finally see them face to face. Very daunting, but I'm, I'm pleased to be here and I'm [01:26:00] pleased to be speaking, uh, for a pride event. So it has a double meaning for me, you know, that I'm now proud. to have HIV. I'm not that little, uh, skinhead from Abaha. I, you know, I've become, become a true person. Uh, it brought, uh, you know, even with someone [01:26:30] diagnosed when the drugs had improved, I, I still have a few. Uh, side effects and life changing side effects. Um, uh, so I started to feel awful again, um, over the last four, five years. And, um, yeah, I have heart troubles now, so I nearly died at the HIV retreat, which I'm very [01:27:00] fortunate to be able to go to in, in Auckland, where there's.. 40 odd women, uh, all giving each other support, and yeah, the steps there, um, we're, we're making my heart play out, um, uh, right heart dysplasia is what I've got, and, you know, I think I'll live a long time, but it [01:27:30] makes it more important to get my message out, you know. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only trans woman. In New Zealand who's out about their status. Um, so being out about your status is, is a good way to be alone for the rest of your life. So I haven't chosen to be alone, sorry. [01:28:00] Uh, but what makes it livable is, is having friends and, and learning, you know, to, to be more honest with myself and more honest with people I love And, hmm. Thank God, because I come from an English family, and in our family, you do not speak about feelings. You know, everything is about the birds and the bees and the light, [01:28:30] fluffy conversations. So, you know, even though I've told my parents, we haven't had any quarrel about it. I don't think they're that, you know, they have read books and things, but, yeah, it was up to me. And, uh, I think I'm doing pretty well. So, thank you all for hearing me speak. I've been dying to press these buttons, but I didn't, so. Cheers. And now,[01:29:00] now if I could, now if I could call up Jeremy Naylor, who is another of my good friends. Thanks. Kia ora tātou.[01:29:30] Jeremy. Hi everybody. I'm Jeremy, and I am a 40 year old, a 40 year old queer male living [01:30:00] in Wellington. Sorry, living with H I V in Wellington. Firstly, I would like to. I have passed away from HIV or AIDS related illnesses. I am grateful to both Michael Bancroft and Te Papa for keeping the AIDS court [01:30:30] safe for future generations. Kia ora. I would also like to acknowledge the support that I have received from the following organisations. Wellington Hospital, probably now known as Te Whātua Ora. Buddy Positive, New Zealand AIDS Foundation, now known as the Bennett Foundation, and the Positive Speakers Bureau.[01:31:00] All of the organisations I have just mentioned, whether they realise it or not, have given me the strength to be here today, so thank you to them. There is hope. In July 2008, a friend [01:31:30] suggested I get an HIV test, so I did. I was diagnosed as being H I I V positive. I took the news of my diagnosis pretty well. I wasn't stressed about it, which is probably because I'm a pretty happy person most of the time.[01:32:00] When I was first diagnosed, I felt shameful, stupid and angry. I was surprised because I didn't have any symptoms at the time, but, Those of us who are positive know that you can have HIV without having symptoms. Symptoms like COVID. You can have COVID but [01:32:30] also have COVID without knowing. That's why testing is absolutely essential. I knew a reasonable amount about HIV and I thought I'd never catch it. How wrong was I? I was infected by, uh, with HIV by a high profile [01:33:00] person. who was in the media at the time. Shortly after my diagnosis, I started taking medication. And as Kel, who spoke before me, rightly said, it is the medication that I've got to thank for me still being here on this earth today.[01:33:30] I take it every day. The first medication that I was on was horrible. It gave me two side effects. They were tiredness or fatigue. The tiredness was.. Easy to deal with. I took my meds just before I went to bed. Easy. The other [01:34:00] side effect that I have had, and still do have to this day, thankfully not as much as I've had it in the past. It's probably not that nice to talk about in public, so you probably don't want me to talk about it, so I won't. A certain word that starts with D.[01:34:30] I think I've said enough about that. I have experienced stigma because of my HIV status. A few years ago I was in Auckland for work. I found a guy online and we agreed to have some fun with each other at his place.[01:35:00] He was going to do a certain act on me. However, he insisted on me wearing a condom. Even though HIV transmission via Rf6 is low risk, actually best as, because I've got what's called a, in science, what science calls a, [01:35:30] an undetectable viral load, it's extremely low risk, I repeat, it is extremely low risk. By the way, the person that, the person who infected me with HIV committed suicide while he was in prison. Because I take my medication [01:36:00] every day. I can live a full, a fully normal and long life, as long as any other healthy person. HIV does not define me. It is a small part of me, of my life. There is hope, because he isn't here to haunt me anymore.[01:36:30] Also, two other reasons, because the medication is better than it used to be, and also because I'm part of a Peer support group. We meet once a month. They are a huge help to me. I repeat, there is hope.[01:37:00] Sorry, I'm going against protocol here, but I just wanted to acknowledge that this is the first time that Jeremy has ever spoken publicly. So, that was huge.[01:37:30] Before I introduce our last speaker for today, I just want to want to acknowledge all of you who have spoken today and shared your stories and um, Taking the time to be here and be so generous with us and the display is going to remain open till three o'clock And once again, I just want to point out the resources on the first side of the room amazing [01:38:00] publications and The positive speakers Bureau has some amazing resources on their website as well, which you can find linked over there, too and Chanel is going to be our last speaker for today, so I'll just introduce her and then Then we're finishing up So thanks again for coming along. Chanel Hathi is of Ngati Hine and Ngati Tuwharetoa descent. She has worked for NZPC, the New Zealand Sex Workers Collective, for many years. This organisation was founded in the late [01:38:30] 1980s and advocates for the rights, health, safety and well being for all sex workers since the era of AIDS and has continued to do so. NZPC works along organisations such as the Burnett Foundation. The DHDP needle exchange, sexual health, family planning, and many more. Um, Chanel is also part of the Te Whanau Whanau group that supports rambler groups in other special events such as Pride. And some of the Te Whanau Whanau group is here today too. So, [01:39:00] welcome Chanel.[01:39:30] [01:40:00] [01:40:30] [01:41:00] [01:41:30] You're right that. Rock, uh, first of all, uh,[01:42:00] so my first acknowledgement is to the Higher power ua, my acknowledgement to the Sacred House, my third acknowledgement. Kia koutou katoa, kua tā mana i tēnei wā, um, ki te tautoko te kaupapa tino whakahirahira. So to all of you who have gathered here today to support this very, very [01:42:30] important agenda. E mihi aroha hoki ki ngā.. Tini mate, kua wehi ki te pua, haere, haere, haere atira. To those who have passed on, into the night, farewell. And you will always be remembered. So, good afternoon everybody. Um, my name's Chanel and I, I'm one of the community liaisons for the New Zealand Prostitutes Collective. [01:43:00] And um, oh my gosh. I go back, I remember those times, you know, cause I go back, oh gosh, 80's, 70's, and I remember, I remember all those times, I remember, I remember the, the, um, I remember the stigma and I remember the discrimination against, um, um, um, [01:43:30] against, uh, people with, um, with, with AIDS. And actually, to tell you that, you know, when, um, a disaster comes, an unknown disaster, and it just sweeps along across the world, people will, um, lives will be taken. And lives will continue to be taken until something is found. You know, because in those days there were no [01:44:00] preventative medicines. Um.. Just hope, really. And I stand here today to, um, And actually, really, this is, meetings like this and are really healthy because they are for the young people who weren't there to understand this dark time in our history. And it wasn't the only one. There was [01:44:30] the Stonewall, but the difference between that one And this one is that, that one was about rights, this one was about life. And that's the big difference between, between the both of them. And it became, and people with um, um, HIV and AIDS became the new lepers. of the century. Stigmatized. Marginalized. And on top of that, they were already marginalized, you [01:45:00] know, and stigmatized, so it was like a double shot. The organization that I work for, we all started, we all grew up with the DHDP, with Bill Logan and, and then, and, and, and the Afena Center, which is what it was known as back then, which is the beginning of the AIDS Foundation. So out of the dust of that war, um, you know, it's a call to arms, you know, to, to, to create these organizations. And um, [01:45:30] the DHDP for those intervenors, the, the, the, the needle, um, people who use needles, our organization for sex workers, you know, and of course for our, our community. And it's really important, you know, these organizations come together because all these groups within these groups, all the people are marginalized people, you know, and they need that help. And this was the call to arms. And, and [01:46:00] when we started in the 1980s, the um, Prostitutes Collective, it was because Um, Catherine, Dame Catherine, um, the wonderful Dame Catherine, it was because, it was because HIV and AIDS had come to the attention of the world, sex workers needed to be informed about things like safe sex practices, and all those kind of things. And, um, when we started our office in Cuba Street, the DHDP, or [01:46:30] it was called WIDE then, Was across the road, and we actually shared, I think we shared the same office. And so, like, we were like teenagers and we all grew up together and we're still here. And for all those young people, you know, that, that, that weren't there, these were very, very, these were very, very, um, uh, trying times because, um, of the stigma. Like I said, the stigma, and, and all the groups that use these organisations, you know, and um, oh, [01:47:00] it was just um, it was just, just, just a difficult time, but um, we can, we can look back from them to today, and um, you know, um, people, sex workers, you know, sex workers, um, um, it's been decriminalised in New Zealand, so you can work freely. Cal was talking about exactly what I thought of when I heard, oh, The Foundation's got a new name, it's called the Purnett Centre. What I thought was exactly what you thought. [01:47:30] Get rid of that ugly word, because things are better. And um, and that, because with our organisation, we are not called the Prostitutes Collective. We keep the word prostitute in because of all that stigma. But we've got it in our initials, but we are now called the Aotearoa New Zealand. Sex Workers Collective because we believe that sex workers work. And, um, it's been decriminalized so people can work. And it's more free. The word sex worker is more free [01:48:00] than the word prostitute. So, I'm really glad that, um, um, the foundation got rid of the word. I mean, it's part of our history. And, um, people live longer. People live longer so there really is no need to keep that in because it was dehumanizing. And I remember one time.. This is what I heard, back in the day that the, um, that stigma had even reached cultural levels. And I heard about a tangi where they had said [01:48:30] that they were thinking, the people on the marae were thinking, we're going to bury that person outside the marae. You don't bury people. outside your marae and you know love is, love is strong and one of the youngest ones said over my dead body are you going to and it's only because they were sick and this is the ignorance of um, of uh, back in those days even, even to a cultural level and it was because of fear as well and that person said over my dead body are you going to [01:49:00] put my family, their whakapapa and their genealogy is sitting right in that graveyard and You are not burying that person outside. And they talked about it and came to the conclusion, Okay, well, you know, alright, alright. But, they shouldn't even have thought about that. Because that was absolutely terrible. And, um, you know, And I remember, And I remember, you know, um, Friends of mine who were trans girls, No one was [01:49:30] immune to this disease. Men, women, trans girls as well, everybody. Michael Jackson wrote a song called, if you've ever heard it, it's called Gone Too Soon. And it was written for a young boy, a 13 year old boy called Ryan, who was HIV positive because of a blood transfusion. And if you ever hear that song, and it's so pretty, and that's what he wrote that song for. So, you know, there was a big price to pay, but I just wanted, I just wanted to, to thank [01:50:00] people who, you know, we are the organisations, we are the organisation, but there are other clogs to that, to that wheel. And, and one of them is right down there, there's um, who keep, who keep these. These, these audio and these visuals, because these young people can hear it from us, but to see it on the screen and to hear it in colour and all its beauty, and there's nothing like it because you can put yourself there and, and, and think. Yeah, yeah, I can feel it. Yeah, and [01:50:30] we're just the storytellers. And I just want the young people to know that, um, you know, you've got it lucky today, but you do have, um, you do have, um, things that need to be fixed. Nothing is ever perfect. Um, and, um, you will find a way. You will find a way. Us who retain those stories, like Te Papa, Te Papa, you know, Te Papa needs to be, he needs such a big thank you because they are our [01:51:00] waka huia, and if any of you in here don't know what a waka huia is, it's a carved Maori treasure box like a, like a, with a lid on it, and that you put your taonga in it, that is a waka huia, but because our people use analogies like that for life, and you know, like the keepers of, of, of our things, this is how a This is how we speak in our language. So, waka, uh, so, uh, that's what a waka huia is. And te papa is, um, yeah, our waka huia. And, um, yeah, and, uh, I just want [01:51:30] to mihi to, um, to all our speakers. Speakers to you, Mr, Mr Logan. Um, where's that gentleman that spoke first? He was great. Yeah, and this lady here. Oh, you were, you were wonderful. I had a tear in my eye when I was listening to you. Yeah, to all our speakers, Cal, nice to see you girl. I always see Cal in places and, um, we pass by each other, but I always make sure that I say hello to her. And to you, you were wonderful. [01:52:00] You were wonderful. So, um, yeah, let's talk about the quilts. The quilts, what are they? They're where people put their love. You know, they were as a, as a, as a, as a memory to those who were somebody's brother. Somebody's father, someone's, someone's, someone's sister, you know, and that's what, that's what these courts are for, that, that there's somebody, it's a memorial and a tribute to, to somebody [01:52:30] who, um, who lost the battle before, you know, any help could come. But, um, we're here today to make sure that, um, these people here. Yeah, and I knew a few of them. One of my friends, um, she was a sister, a queen. If anybody don't know what a queen is, it's an old, it's an old trend, it's an old, um, terminology for trans [01:53:00] girl. And I think it sounds a little bit more dignified. Where are the queens? Oh, they're over there. Yeah. So, um, yeah, and Alexis, and she was wonderful. And, um, when she passed, um, we, uh, created, um, a fund, we called the Alexis Kennedy After Love Trust. And, uh, that was for, um, to help anybody who, uh, who had passed away from HIV that was having problems with their funerals. And, um, now it's called, [01:53:30] um, We now renamed, we renamed it after one of the trans girls who gave us a safe space, a coffee bar called the Evergreen, some of you might have heard of it, for 25 years, and she passed it, passed away, so we called it the Chrissy Wetoko Fund, so, so, so that's what, um, that's for, but you know, um, at the end of the day, within the community, the gay community, we have everything from the beginning to the end, so we have the organisations, the chums. And in between that, you know, the organizations that protect you, and in between that, you [01:54:00] have the married celibates that can marry you and give you a happy life. And then you have the people at the end that can be at your funeral at the end and, you know, from the rainbow. And so it's all, all in there. And I just want to, um, thank, um, um, yeah, yeah, the organizers, Bena, um, Bena, um, Reuben. I mean, I've, I've never met these people, but I was, when they emailed me, I was like, oh, should I do it? Because I'm not a very good speaker, but I'm like. [01:54:30] I'm like, oh stuff, I'm gonna do it. So, so here I am. So here I am, um, and very proud to be part of the Pride. And, you know, and there's just so many people, some I might have forgotten to acknowledge, you know, from the, from the top to the middle, to the bottom, and, and, and once again reiterate that the guy, um, what's his name, um, Peter Duncan, from, somebody put an email that he was coming, I don't know if he's here, but anyway, it's people like that, like I [01:55:00] said before, people like that, people like Gareth Watkins, they sit quietly at the back, and, and, and preserve these, um, these wonderful, these wonderful, sometimes sad, um, parts of our rainbow history, and then we have a big huge house like this one, that takes care of it. So, you know, so everything's all good. And if it's not all good, well, we will find a way as we do within our community and we'll, we'll, we, we would, we, we would [01:55:30] deal with that. And, um, Oh, there's one more thing I just want to say, I just want to acknowledge, um, um, Princess Diana. Cause I really admired her. But I admired her because, um, you know, and, and, it's just a shame that she, she went so, so, so quickly, but, but I just admired her passion and her drive and her love for people who had, um, HIV and AIDS. She, apart from, you know, she cast aside [01:56:00] all the trappings of royalty. But she never broke protocol, and she touched the hands of somebody who had AIDS, and the whole world went, Oh my god, did you see what she did? But she didn't care. She didn't care because she was the quintessential humanitarian. Beautiful, kind, a big heart, you know, up there in the sky, you know, but She could come down here and just be just like everybody else and um, I think that um, Angels [01:56:30] like her probably get taken to heaven because you know, you know, they probably too good for this world anyway And to me, that's what she was She was just just just that kind of person and it was so nice to have at a time of crisis that at that time That somebody so big and you know, so important would come down and say look it's okay, you know and today You know, better medicines, and I hope that, [01:57:00] um, whatever comes next that we will deal with it, um, we will deal with, in order to be another chapter within our, within our stories, like these ones, for you young people, because it'll be your turn, because we're not going to be here forever, but the archives, and the stories, and the recordings, like Gareth, and, and, and documentaries, they will be for the next generation, so all I have to say to conclude everybody is that, um, thinking about all these people [01:57:30] that have passed away, you know, we, we, we must all at the end of the day, remember that they are like stars and the sky and the stars that will never fade as long as we look up and remember. I would just like [01:58:00] to, um, acknowledge this because you, you probably already know about Georgina Bayer. Yeah, Georgina Bayer, and she, that um, you know, who, who, she was a very, very strong campaigner for, for, for AIDS, for AIDS total. She was, she was like, she was, in her real life, when you see her at the podium, like rarrr. That was her, that was that fire that, yeah, and she [01:58:30] meant, and she meant what she said. And, um, yeah, she was such a big supporter for, um, for, for, for, for AIDS and, um, and, and, and, and, and just, just, just, just, she fought for the underdog because she comes from an era, she's a little bit older than me, but we come from the same era where, um, where we know what it's like to be treated. unfairly and to be beaten and, um, and, and stigmatize and, and, and, and, and face discrimination. She knew that [01:59:00] because, um, because us queens, we know what that's like and, um, that fire that she had inside her when you saw that, that was real. And, um, if she had a passion for something, she would fight for it till the end. And, um, Yeah, they named a street after her in Carterton because she was the mayor of Carterton and this is this little, this little straight town of, of wonderful people and they love her and, and I think from what I heard [01:59:30] that they might even have a memorial for her because she went in there and she just And she just and those people in Cardigan just loved her and they didn't even want her to go. Unfortunately, Labor won that year and Helen Clark came in and kind of tempted her into Parliament. Well she broke another record. She became the first transgender MP in history. And she did a really, really good job. You should have seen when she came out for the Destiny Church. Man, she was on fire, she was, she was on fire with the Disney, she goes, it's disgusting and all this [02:00:00] kind of stuff, but I don't know if people know this, she had a fundraiser to, because she was invited to Oxford and London to, to speak. And the only people who have ever been invited to there to speak was David Longing, was our Prime Minister in the 80s, my boss Dame Catherine Healy, and her. And she had a fundraiser down at the Opera House. Guess who was there? Brian Tambachy and his wife. Yeah, we're there, but I didn't go. But, um, I gave my seat to someone else and they went, guess who was there? And I went, who?[02:00:30] I went. Oh, really? So, you know, that was, that was really nice. You know, have a heart come down, you are Maori, you know, come and support and, um, yeah, apparently he was there and I thought, well, that was great. And, um, You know, all I have to say is, um, you know, Georgina is te rangatira. You know, rest in peace. You know, it's um, it's people like Carmen, if you've ever heard of her. She ran for me in 1977, so she paved the way for people like [02:01:00] Georgina Bayer to enter political spaces. So it's the ones that come before that kind of make the pathway for the next generation, because they want it to be easy. So, um, yeah, rest in peace, my sister. You'll, you'll, you'll, you'll never, you'll always have a place in our hearts and in our community and in our country. So, um, thanks everyone. Ka[02:01:30] kite.[02:02:00] [02:02:30] [02:03:00] It [02:03:30] falls to me to have the great honor. I've just a few words, few words of thanks because Chanel, as I sat there, you thank just about everyone that was on the list. We've been honored, myself and the other senior people to speak. [02:04:00] We have been supported by the next generation and over coffee this morning, one of us. said it's thanks to the likes of Benna and Reuben. That means stand up.[02:04:30] And the team of Te Papa. Because we have been part of the early history moving into the present and it'll be you people who'll take things into the future. Keep telling the story. Some of us remembered the way things [02:05:00] began. When you spoke, God, the need to surround people. With support. Jeremy, hope, which is what we need. And during the course of this morning and afternoon, there have been many [02:05:30] references to the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, which we now know as the Burnett Foundation. And I think it's only appropriate to acknowledge that after a busy morning, the current executive director, c e O, whatever name he's given, Joe Rich, please stand so they know who you are is the c e O of the Benet [02:06:00] Foundation. And we thank you through all these years and those who proceeded you. And the support of all of us who live with and support and love those who are part of the journey once again. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.[02:06:30] .

IRN: 3602
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rally_for_feminism_and_trans_rights.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004715
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093105
TITLE: Rally for feminism and trans rights
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Eliana Rubashkyn; Emma-Jean Kelly; Sandra Marekino; Terry Bellamak; Tiaki Sharp; Tristan-Cordelia; Will Hansen; Willow Heron
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2020s; ALRANZ Abortion Rights Aotearoa; Action Zealandia; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Christopher Luxon; Eliana Rubashkyn; Emma-Jean Kelly; Fired Up Stilettos; General election; Heterosexuals Unafraid of Gays (HUG); Homosexual Law Reform; International Socialist Organisation Te Whanganui-a-Tara branch; Kyle Chapman; Marama Davidson; Member of Parliament; Neo-Nazism; Parliament grounds; Posie Parker; Pōneke Anti-Fascist Coalition; Queer Endurance / Defiance; Roger Swanson; Sandra Marekino; Sex Worker Exclusionary Radical Feminist (SWERF); Sisters for Homophile Equality (SHE); Speak Up For Women NZ; Terry Bellamak; Tiaki Sharp; Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); Tristan-Cordelia; United Kingdom; United States of America; Wellington; amplified hatred; anti-abortion; bigotry; bodily autonomy; death threat; far-right politics; fascism; feminism; genocide; hate; hate group; hate speech; human rights; international influence; intersectionality; lesbian; love; mis-pronoun; patriarchal system; pronouns; rape; reproductive rights; sex work; sexual violence; slay; social media; social networking; teara. govt. nz; threats; tomato; trans; trans man; trans woman; transgender; transmisogyny; transphobia; transphobic violence; volunteer; whakawahine
DATE: 3 May 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Parliament grounds, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the rally held on Wednesday 3 May 2023 in Parliament grounds, Wellington. The rally was organised by the Pōneke Anti-Fascist Coalition to counter a rally being held at the same time by Speak Up For Women. Special thanks to the organiser and participants of the PAFC rally for allowing it to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm an 18 year old trans feminine woman, um, I'm currently studying at Te Heranga Waka University of Wellington, um, and we are on the Parliament lawn. Um, where Parliament Security has put up, uh, some metal barriers and, um, there are some TERFs here already on the other side. I can see a few shirts saying adult human female, which is always lovely. Um, and we're just waiting on the rest of our group to arrive in, oh, [00:00:30] about half an hour. Um, And, it looks like we already outnumbered them, so that's good for safety, but it looks like Parliament and Security are expecting a bit of a confrontation, so hopefully everything goes well and peaceful and, um, no one gets hurt. This counter rally is, uh, titled, uh, Rally for Feminism and Trans Rights. Why was it important to bring those two things together? Um, well, as I'll say in my speech again later today, um, I think it's, it's.. Uh, very important that, [00:01:00] um, transfeminism and other, um, branches of feminism are kind of inextricably linked. They, um, complement each other really importantly, and I think it's a really good way to, um, achieve everyone's goals. Um, and also, uh, our fights are very, very similar. You know, the, the fight for, um, abortion rights, uh, is very closely linked to bodily autonomy and the right to transition to trans people. Um, and, and then, you know, all the way through, um, feminist history, there've been, uh, parallels, um, to.. Trans, um, pushes for trans rights [00:01:30] as well. So, um, I think it's really important and Um, it also shows the, uh, TERFs, that they don't speak for all women, you know. If, if it was just trans women getting up and speaking, then they could make the argument that we're kind of alone. But when we have cis feminists and other feminist groups, um, also standing up to oppose their, um, hatred, it, it makes it much easier for our arguments to be defensible to, sort of, the general public. Since the visit of Posey Park, uh, a couple of weeks ago, or maybe a month ago now, has there been an increase in, kind of, anti trans sentiment in New Zealand?[00:02:00] Definitely. Yeah, there has. Um, I, I think it's, it's, it's definitely come to the forefront, but it's important to acknowledge that it's, it's, it was, it was here already. Um, and there were definitely transphobic undercurrents. Um, it's just, uh, her visit imported some more. Um, extremist views and some more extremist hatred, um, onto our shores. And, um, we've now got an important fight to push those back down again and make sure that they don't gain prevalence in our country. Do you think her [00:02:30] visit kind of just gives license for people to express, uh, stronger, louder, angrier views? Absolutely. Yeah. Um, she, she acts as a rallying point around which, um, hateful people, uh, justify their views by saying, Well, look at this. You know, powerful, popular person who supports us. Um, and yeah, I, I mean, I was very disappointed when she was let into the country at all. Um, but um, yeah, hopefully, hopefully we can outnumber them today and get some more media attention and, [00:03:00] and just show that actually TERFs are not the, um, majority at all and that they share a very hateful, um, minority view. Speak Up for Women has been around for a number of years and they've campaigned against a number of.. different pieces of legislation. What do you think is like their endgame? Like, when, when do you think they will kind of stop, or will they just keep going? Um, well, the thing about, um, transphobia is that their argument is that we don't exist. And so that leaves us with [00:03:30] the ultimatum of, um, either we win or we stop existing. Um, and so I don't think they're going to stop fighting. Uh, ever. Because until there's no trans people left in the country and in the world, um, their, uh, mission of hate will never be complete. So, it's really important that we stamp them out at the early age before we start seeing things like, um, what's happening in the United States right now where, um, trans people are being, uh, quite a significant way through the different, the ten steps of genocide. And it's quite a scary situation over [00:04:00] there. And, and hopefully we can stamp it out in New Zealand before it gets to that stage. We are currently outside, uh, the steps of Parliament. Uh, Speak Out for Women has organised a, um, speech or event of some kind and we're here as a counter protest, um, for trans and queer rights. Why was it important for you to be here today? Uh, well, a lot of my friends are queer and a couple of them are trans, uh, specifically trans women, and they're really important to me and it's important that, um, I stick up for them, [00:04:30] and, yeah, my role as an ally is really to be there for them, and that's the best I can do. Do you think there's been an increase in anti trans sentiments since the visit of Posey Parker? Um, from what I've read, there has been, yes. Uh, there have been some, uh, Much more aggressive stances, uh, from what I read. Reports of more aggression towards trans people following the, um, following the initial instance of her visits and, uh, then [00:05:00] fleeing. But, uh, that's only from what I've read. It's hard to, it's hard for me to say that I've seen it in, with my own eyes, in society, but I've definitely read the accounts and I've heard from others who have, uh, experienced that. So, yes, part of that is I'm not personally a target. But, um, I do my best to keep an eye on it. You mentioned Speak Up for Women and the event today, and they've been around for a couple of years now, and they seem to be campaigning against a whole range of different [00:05:30] legislation going through Parliament. Do you have any sense of, like, what their kind of endgame is? Like, what, like, what do they, what do they want to achieve? It's hard to say. I would say from, um, from what I'm seeing. It's simply a standing against something we don't like as opposed to fighting for something or fighting for something else. I understand it can be, um, when, when many of my friends started coming out as trans and um, other gender identities, it was a little confusing to [00:06:00] understand, but I took the time to understand it and now I have a really good idea of the situation. What I don't think they're willing to do is that they don't seem willing to Think about or consider other perspectives. It's simply a I don't understand it. I don't like it. It's got to go mentality and that doesn't really bring It's not a progressive mindset and it doesn't get you anywhere in the long run or does is kind of filibuster for other movements This is happening in [00:06:30] New Zealand, but I'm also aware that it's happening internationally. Do you think this is? Is that part of an international thing that's happening at the moment, the kind of anti trans feeling? Um, I would definitely say so, however, um, many surveys have reported that these anti trans sentiments are not in fact popular. In fact, um, there was a report on Fox News, which I know is interesting to bring up here, but, uh, they said only 15% of American households, um, saw, Trans people is a problem [00:07:00] and others didn't either were fine with it completely or just had some minor things here and there, uh, but only 15% saw it as a problem. So it's these other views most definitely of a minority. They're a very vocal minority, but they're a minority nonetheless. I'm Nella. I use he him pronouns and today we're at Parliament counter protesting a, uh, tariff protest. Why was it important for you to be here today? Um, I [00:07:30] just think, like, if we let this kind of garbage go unchecked, then we're just as bad, you know? So, it's important for me to be able to be here and help people that are most vocal, uh, in our community. Yeah, and so you're volunteering today. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just here as a medic today. So just helping out good experience Hopefully we won't need medical attention. Yeah, that's the plan. That's the plan. I'm hoping to be as useless as possible [00:08:00] With Posey Parker's visit a couple of weeks ago Do you think the kind of anti trans sentiment has like increased in New Zealand since then? Oh, definitely. I think it's Uh, with like, as well with like all the UK and US kind of stuff going on, it's really been on a rise lately. Um, and I've definitely seen and heard more of it just like in my day to day life. Um, I think Posey definitely stirred up a lot of.. People that were normally more quiet in their transphobia to being more vocal about it, which is [00:08:30] a shame. Yeah, hopefully they learn to stay quiet. Do you think it's, um, I mean it seems to me when I'm looking online that it's, you know, there's a lot happening internationally as well. Do you think this is just another kind of arm of that kind of anti trans sentiment worldwide? Yeah, yeah, I think it's just like.. New Zealand sometimes takes a bit longer to catch up on these things, but it's just slowly kind of spreading its fingers in here and waking up the already, like, dormant y, if not rampant, [00:09:00] transphobia that we have. Um, I think, yeah, we are very internationally influenced, and it's starting to show, so yeah. But then it must be amazing to see, Hosie Parker here in Wellington, where there was like 4, 000 people. That was, honestly, it was brilliant, and the amount of people I saw there, like, I saw the people that work at my, uh, university, I saw people I haven't seen in years, I saw so many different groups of people come together to stand up against, [00:09:30] uh, transphobia, and it was, it was gorgeous, it made me feel very proud live here. So, um, this event is countering the one that Speak Up for Women, uh, are doing today here at Parliament. Um, Speak Up for Women have, um, lobbied against a number of different bits of legislation and so it's not one specific thing. And I'm wondering, like, do you have any thoughts about, like, what their end game is? Like, what do they want to achieve? That's a good question, because I don't even know if they know. Um, [00:10:00] I think, yeah, honestly, it, it feels like they all have.. different goals in certain areas and they've kind of just lumped together into one group. So I, I honestly have no idea what they've, what's going through their heads. Not much, really. Yeah. Today, uh, well, this year is the general election here in Aotearoa. Um, do you have any, uh, words that you would like to say to either politicians or prospective politicians? Um, I think just being.. [00:10:30] Vocal about your stance right now could be very important, um, because, you know, I find sometimes politicians can kind of just try not to get involved, and I think right now with how high the tensions are, it's important to say how you're, how you stand on these issues and what you're actually going to do for the community. Um, but yeah, that's all I really know. I've come here today and I'll be here with some other feminists of an [00:11:00] older generation. Um, we're here because we've been wringing our hands about the fact that some older women and older feminists have been very much presenting anti transgender points of view. And we don't understand why really, because a trans woman is a woman to us. And so, as feminists, we're trying to make a bit of a stand and say, hang on, we need to step back a bit, welcome [00:11:30] trans women into our, into our spaces, and, um, and just carry on. Looking at the issues that have always troubled us, like, um, violence against women, poverty, you know, all of those kinds of issues that feminists have been concerned about for a very long time. So where do you think that kind of, um, hatred comes from towards trans people? Like, why is it rearing its head now? [00:12:00] I've got no idea. It's a mystery to me. I think, um, maybe some older feminists have been troubled by some of the transgender people they've seen. Seen but not spoken to, perhaps. Um, it is a mystery to me, Gareth. I really just, I'm puzzled by it. Yeah, because if you've met some transgender women and had the talk with them, they're just people getting on with their lives. And, you know, [00:12:30] if you want to be a woman, you're a brave person, because being a woman hasn't always been all that easy in our society. So I respect their wish. If they want to be women, then, you know, good on them. They're brave people. When I look overseas, I'm seeing kind of similar things that are happening, say, in the US and the UK. Do you think this is just part of a larger, uh, a larger international kind of anti trans sentiment? It seems to be, and that's very concerning, and that's why we as [00:13:00] feminists are wanting to stand up and say, Hang on. Stop this. This is crap. And, um, those transgender women in particular are women, and they're welcome in my space. Well, I'm, I'm a cishet male. Okay, I live in a privileged society, I am privileged, but I see people, vulnerable minorities, who don't have that privilege. And persecuting trans people for all these weird transphobic transgressions that mostly have never, [00:13:30] ever happened. This reminds me of 1986, of the gay law reform. And I've heard it all before, it didn't wash with me then, and it's not washing with me now. So can you compare back what was happening in 86 to what is happening now? Is there a difference? How do you, how do you think? At the beginning, it's pretty much the same. The rhetoric is the same. You know, you can't have gay men teaching kids in safe places. They use your bull crap. But there is something different now, and I think it's all amplified by the internet. It's made [00:14:00] a lot worse with the internet. Um, and stuff that you could ignore back in 86. It's very hard to ignore it now, and it just seems to, um, I don't know, amplify the hatred. And is that what you were seeing, hatred? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, you know, and even when women speak out for, on behalf of trans people, so this is, you know, women, cis women, you know, you still get people saying, you know, just drowning them out, saying, no, let women speak, let women speak. Well, they are [00:14:30] speaking and their message is quite clear. You know, we've got nothing to be afraid of. You've brought a sign today. Can you tell me what's on the sign? Sure. The sign says, love prevails always. Yeah, it's just my favourite saying. I mean, you can argue with that. You can argue with that. So, were you also protesting during 86, 87, or 85, 86? Yep, absolutely. Um, I wore my hug badge, um, to work. And I just about dared my boss to tell me to take it off, but he never did. He [00:15:00] was actually quite cool about it. And I wore my hug badge with pride. With absolute pride, you know, um, you know, gays, trans people, you know, they're my, my siblings. So, and I'm a New Zealander, and I'm quite proud of the fact that, you know, we lead the world, you know, with um, LGBTQI plus rights, you know, absolutely. But how does it make you feel when you think that, that, that was 40 years ago, 85, 86, with the homosexual law reform, and these same arguments are coming up now? [00:15:30] Look, it's just gobsmacking that all the same arguments have been, uh, brought back, dredged up again, and they're almost word for word. But you might as well just replace the word, uh, gay with trans, and it's almost exactly the same. You know, people and.. so called safe spaces, but I tell you what, you know, what women have to fear is not trans women, it's cis het males who do most of the violence, you know, Marama Davidson in the Greens, she was 100% spot on, yep. This year is an election year, uh, would [00:16:00] you have any, uh, messages for our politicians now or would be politicians? Yeah, stand up for what's right. You may, uh, you may lose a few votes, you know, from certain, um, transphobes and hatemongers. Just stand up for what's right. You know, in your heart, I say to the politicians, in your heart, you know what's the right thing to do because you never know, the next person affected could be someone in your family. So we're in Parliament Grounds, and I'm standing here in the wind with my mate, and we're holding a banner that says Feminists [00:16:30] for Trans Rights. I'm in my 40s, I'm a strong feminist, and I believe that trans and non binary people need to have exactly the same rights as everybody else. Why was it important for you to be here today? Ah, to support my whānau, to support rainbow communities. Yeah, and just make that point that.. Stand up for women, don't stand for me. Posie Parker didn't stand for me. I'm a cis woman and I'm proud, but I also love my trans and non binary whanau. Posie, well Posie wasn't here [00:17:00] in Wellington, she actually left New Zealand but there was a rally against Posie Parker a few weeks ago here in Wellington. Did you attend that? And if you did, what was the feeling like? I did attend it. It was such a joyful event. It was huge. And I know it's just Yesterday on Taro Encyclopedia of New Zealand, they just put up a beautiful photo of our attendance and we could see ourselves in the crowd. Um, it felt like an event where everybody knew that this was the point where we had to say, we don't want this kind of anti trans kōrero, we don't want it to enter [00:17:30] legislation, we don't want it to enter our workplaces. It was amazing. We also heard from trans people themselves, and that was so powerful for me, to hear about people's experience of every day walking down the street being yelled at and slapped and shouted at, and how hard that is, and then to have feminists They've challenged their right to be themselves, just seem to me so extraordinarily messed up. This rally today is a counter rally [00:18:00] to the Speak Up for Women rally. And, I mean, they've protested a number of bits of legislation. It's not just one issue they're going for. What do you think is their kind of end game? I try very hard to understand. I even looked up their website, which has all these generic photos of white people looking very fit. It's very strange. I don't know what their end point is, except I do know they feel genuinely threatened. But I can't get to the bottom of [00:18:30] why. I've asked people. There is no rational explanation for this response. We've just had the PA start up with music. Um, I might just end this very shortly, but if you could just describe what you can see around us. Oh, it looks amazing. We have purple haired people, purple glassed people. We have pink beanies. We have banners. We have, um, trans flags, trans t shirts, and all sorts of different kinds of humans here together to [00:19:00] celebrate in their beautiful shoes, in their beautiful wairua. I'm Sandra Marikino. What we're here today is to come and support my sisters, all my trans friends, and women's rights. And we're fighting for women's rights as we are speaking for today. Can you look around you and just describe what you can see? I see a lot of trans sisters and brothers all here today for [00:19:30] today's rally, and hopefully we'll get women's rights accepted today. Acceptance saves lives. Hate kills. And that's the big banner at the front of the rally, yeah? Yes. Yes. Um, hopefully it will be a good turnout today. Well, as we slowly see that people are showing up and we are supporting each other of all colours and rainbow. Why was it important for you to be here today? I'm here to [00:20:00] support my friends, who are also trans, sisters and brothers, and to fight for their rights. To be with them fighting for our women's rights. And make friends and meet people. I've seen you at a number of trans rallies over the years, and you're always quite vocal. I mean, it's really, it's fantastic. But what is the feeling you get, say like, I think I saw you at the um, the uh, Aunty Posy Parker rally. Um, the feeling I get [00:20:30] is good vibes that I'm actually in the crowd with them, and chanting with them, and meeting people and talking about what we really need. With the Hikoi March in March, not so long ago, It would turn out to be a very big crowd, and I started chanting for everyone, and everyone was following me. Hence why I was chanting, is to cheer the crowd up and let people know that we are here, loud and [00:21:00] proud. And we all care for each other, and we're all for one. We're not just individual people asking for something that we want. We're all as in one equal, asking for what we want. Our woman's rights. Give us what we need. This is us. Whether we are trans men, trans sister, we are still one people, one person. We're still under one colour, the rainbow flags. Do you think since Posie Parker's [00:21:30] visit to New Zealand that there's been an increase in kind of anti trans sentiment? Ehh, honestly I can't answer you that. Since she's been back home, we are so proud that she did not come to Wellington. Very proud that we did not come to Wellington. Uh, I feel sorry for her. She should realize her family comes first. She's, she's a mother, a wife, a sister and auntie. Her family comes first. Her life is more [00:22:00] important than protesting against trans people. We are all as one. She, we fought for what we are doing. And we are still fighting for our, for our women's rights. So I'm glad she did not come to Wellington. And I'm sure the whole of Wellington is proud of what we did that day and why she did not come down here. This year is the general election here in New Zealand. Is there anything that you would want to say to politicians or would be politicians? [00:22:30] Please come out and support us and be with us. We are here for our rights, for our rights, women's rights. Please give us what we need, especially to our trans sisters and brothers. They really need us as much as we all need us. So please be with us and support us. Kia Whanganui a Tara. Tēnā koutou e ngā irawhiti. Tēnā [00:23:00] koutou e ngā homi. Anui te mihi kia koutou. Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa. Uh, we are gathered here today, uh, organized by Poneke Anti Fascist Coalition, standing up against anti trans rally that's about to get underway shortly over the other side of Parliament. And we are here to say that trans rights are women's rights, that women's rights are [00:23:30] trans rights, and that the trans community and feminism are together. Just want to give a shout out to Maniapoto, who are here today gifting a tree to the Crown. Um, after having settled their treaty settlement. Uh, that's dope. Welcome. So, my name's Tristan Cordelia. I'm going to be [00:24:00] emceeing. Um, I'll run through a safety briefing. Then I will hand over to Tiaki to do a karakia. Then I'll hand over to our four speakers. Um, Sarah, who's going to speak on trans rights and feminism. A couple of representatives from the Fired Up Stilettos who are going to speak about the intersection between, um, SWERFs and TERFs and stand against both. Um, Terry from Abortion Law Reform to speak about this movement. Um, and then Alice to speak about some of the more hidden aspects of [00:24:30] transphobia, uh, and transmisogyny. And then we will wrap up with some noise and hopefully a good time and a minimum of confrontation. So, we're here today for a peaceful protest. Um, we have marshals to keep us safe. Um, our head marshal is Felha. Uh, we stand for collective well being, including a need for the protection and support of the trans members of our community, and for the rights of all those marginalized to be [00:25:00] included and to be safe in society. We stand against the anti trans rhetoric, disinformation, and conspiracy theories against the far right's politics of violence, hatred, fear of trans people. In the future, it may be necessary to confront the threats they pose more directly. Today is not that day. Today we are gathered, gathering peacefully to demonstrate and resist. This is not about passive resistance, it is, but it is about non violent resistance. We are actively non violently resisting those who hate us.[00:25:30] Which means we don't lie down and let them do what they want to us, but we do de escalate any hint of violence that is to come. Specifically, we are resisting the extremely harmful views spouted by a very small number of their leaders and by agitators within their ranks. With that in mind, we urge you to adhere to our kaupapa by doing the following things. Attack the anti trans ideology. Don't attack the individual protesters who have been misled and lied [00:26:00] to by charlatans. Be part of the community. Look out for one another. When you need to go and find a public loo, go and come back with buddies. When it's time to leave, leave with buddies. Keep everyone safe. Include everyone. Talk to one another. Have fun! This is.. Rrrrrrrrrrrr! Meow! This is also a celebration of the diversity of our community. Meow! Have fun with that community. Look after the Svenua. [00:26:30] Find a public glue. Don't litter. We are on Taranaki whanau land, and we are here to respect that land. Marshals are in orange vests. Follow their leadership. Their goal, our goal, on this occasion is to de escalate potentially dangerous situations and ensure we successfully counter protest the TERFs without any of our community coming to harm. First Aid and Welfare team are in green. Shoulder tap them to help with injuries, mental and medical health and wellbeing advice.[00:27:00] If you can't find one, ask one of the Marshals to find one for you. Our med team are not a substitute for an ambulance in a critical situation, but they can help. We are not setting out to be arrested, but in the event that you are, we have spoken with a lawyer who is willing to be involved. You can ask a marshal for their number and write it on your arm in case you need it. Watch out for far right media trying to create incriminating footage, disrupt their footage or move away as you feel fits the circumstances. The reporters we've spoken to so far and that we have seen [00:27:30] around us are not from the far right. Um. Thank you. They'll generally be a bit more shifty than the people we currently have. Cool. So let's have an overview of how the day is likely to go. First of all, you are all inevitably going to be your wonderful selves, and you're going to talk with and look out for one another. The turfs will be gathering and protesting starting at 12. 30 and ending at 1. 30 over that side of the barrier. There will likely be other right wing [00:28:00] groups also heading to parliament, possibly coming from other directions. There will likely be right wing social media agitators and wannabes hanging around too. Don't give them your time unless it's to disrupt their footage. We're protesting all of these groups, we're letting it be known that they do not speak for and decide what's best for trans people, for women, for queer people, and all those in our community. But, we're not stopping them going up into parliament grounds. We will be staying here till 1. 30, making noise to disrupt them, and then having fun. The Marshall team will communicate a plan beyond that as the day [00:28:30] progresses. It's likely our numbers will swell around lunchtime when those who are unable to work to avoid work commitments join us. On the other hand, it's possible we'll close things down early or relocate depending on how the situation develops. Look to the Marshall team for directions and listen for announcements. We'll have a mix throughout, speeches, music, and chants. Um, we're really just going with simplicity today, so if we need to chant, we will chant. Trans rights are human rights. Or just trans rights.[00:29:00] Thank you for your time and attention and the love you've brought here to share today. I'm going to hand over to Tiaki now to open with the karakia. Tēnā tātou katoa. Whakataka te hau ki te uru, whakataka te hau ki te tonga. Kia mā kinakina ki uta, kia mā taratara kei tai. E hii ake ana te atākira. He tio, he uka, he auu, ti he wā mauri ora. Tēnā koutou [00:29:30] katoa. Kia ora. I'm now going to introduce our first speaker, Sarah. UA Coursera [00:30:00] ua. My pronouns are she her. I'm a proud member of the International Socialist Organization, of Paunake Anti Fascist Coalition, and of Queer Endurance Defiance. Groups with significantly overlapping mahi, and full of amazing people. We stand up against fascists and far right forces. We build community, and we ensure collective well being. Today, just behind me, in front of you all, a group called Speak Up for Women is holding a [00:30:30] rally. Now, genuinely, speaking up for well, the well being of women is an excellent idea. And I'm sure all of us gathered here today agree, women in Aotearoa face many injustices. Sadly, the group gathered over there exists solely and expressly for the purpose of demanding the removal of rights from transgender people. Kia ora,[00:31:00] and again! The work of transphobes serves to shift social attitudes rightward towards a world of individualism and hierarchy. That rightward shift must be fought. We don't need to look far to see a far right and fascist presence in the anti trans movement. Only as far as Nam Melbourne, where Neo-Nazis rallied with anti-trans trans icon Posey Parker, or just with an RO itself, where Neo-Nazi Kyle [00:31:30] Chapman, former leader of the National Front, recently organized anti-trans stand by your women rallies. So we all stand together against those who spew hate, seek harm, and sow division. Transphobes argue that transgender people somehow threaten cisgender women's rights. But rights are won for communities through collective struggles. And winning rights for [00:32:00] one group doesn't mean losing rights for another. We can ensure everyone in this society gets what they need to survive and thrive. There is enough resource to go around. Let me hear that more! There is enough resource to go around! Kia ora. We must build towards a society truly embodying the motto from each according to their ability [00:32:30] to each according to their need. That's an achievable goal if we are all united. Transphobia is just one of the many tools used to divide the working class. So we'll continue to rally mass resistance against hate. We'll resist the bigotry of all kinds. Who will work together towards common goals of social, physical, mental well being for all. And we will show, through a unity, a glimpse of an achievable future based on love [00:33:00] and community. We are already doing that. ALL of those things, right here, and right now. Kia ora! Kia ora Sarah. We next have two representatives from the Fired Up Stilettos who ora. Kia ora.[00:33:30] I am one of the organizers of the Fired Up Stilettos, and I'm here today to speak about the connection between trans exclusionary radical feminism and sex work exclusionary radical feminism, and how the two are inherently connected. Swerves.. They really are. I'm about to tell you. Swerves and TERFs really do go hand in hand. Just as trans people have always been [00:34:00] here.. Sex work is often considered the oldest profession in the world. From the 1970s, it is well documented that anti sex work feminists, anti trans feminists, religious conservatives, and the moral right have aligned themselves politically in a war against our communities. Swerves and TERFs both hold essentialist understandings of man and woman, and promote a patriarchal desire to control our bodies, our sexualities, our identities, and our labor. [00:34:30] Swerves will tell you that our industry must be abolished to protect children, to stop human trafficking, to stop child trafficking. to stop men from committing violence and sexual violence against women. They label sex workers as bad women, whose existence harms real women. They push these labels onto sex workers, ignoring the diverse experiences and identities in our industry, to advocate for laws that compromise our safety [00:35:00] with absolutely no legitimate evidence to back up their claims. While these examples are a pervasive injustice, these arguments are a distraction from the true causes and perpetrators of these crimes. It is a way of locating a familiar scapegoat, relieving men of accountability, and of blaming sex workers for male violence. TERF arguments use the same discourse, that a trans person is threatening to children, that a trans person's control over their bodily autonomy is threatening. That a [00:35:30] trans woman is not a real woman. That a trans person's existence harms real women. They use these arguments to advocate for laws that make trans lives precarious, susceptible to violence, and deny access to healthcare. Again, if you think there is valuable statistical evidence to back up these claims, you would be wrong. What is important to remember is that arguably the most vulnerable members of our sex work community are trans, street based sex workers. And some of the most [00:36:00] vulnerable members of the trans community are trans, street based sex workers. Now there is nothing inherently vulnerable about a sex worker or a trans person. We are made vulnerable by societal prejudice and by policy that discriminates against us.[00:36:30] This is why we cannot forget each other when we stand up for our rights, because our rights, like the hate perpetrated against us, was born from the same hands. It is also important to remember that there is privilege even within our own oppressed communities, but that privilege does not belong to trans sex workers. I have worked with few trans dancers in strip clubs across Aotearoa [00:37:00] because they don't often even have the privilege of working in the same shitty, exploitative venues that the fired up stilettos are advocating to improve right now. That is why it is important for the entire rainbow community to show up for all sex works rights movements, especially full service workers. With the very real [00:37:30] need for identity protection, we rely on the support of our allies. It is equally important for all sex workers to show up for trans rights activism Trans rights! trans [00:38:00] rights! Trans rights! Our biggest oppositions may not have a stronghold in Aotearoa like they do in places like the UK, but they do have a lot of money, a lot of power, and a lot of time on their hands to make all of our lives unsafe. Liberation for sex workers is inherently connected to liberation for the trans community. Thank[00:38:30] you. Tena koutou katoa. My name is Molly, or Mago and Vago, and I am a member of the Fired Up Solidos as well. Oh, thank you. This is the second time I've spoken on behalf of Fired Up Solidos at a trans rights protest, and I see that as a huge achievement for our communities, because Fired Up Solidos was only formed two months ago. The volume of anti fascist action taking place in our city [00:39:00] by our people is something that we should be very proud of. To wake up every day and see the brutal impacts of a self sustaining patriarchal society is not easy. But here we all are, standing together, being honest about who we are and what we want. It is our refusal to conform with the status quo that brings us all together. The refusal to accept that we should be treated as other or as less than. Queerness opens the door for us all to question the aspects of society we live in, decide what is [00:39:30] right for us, and live that way. Like all marginalized groups, we are not homogenous. But to truly live authentically, we must recognize and accept that we are different, and in turn respect the differences of others. We must keep in mind that division among our community is not born from feminist ideology. It is a strategy used by our oppressors to discourage our unity and make us weaker, because together we are a threat to the system.[00:40:00] We cannot achieve intersectional feminist liberation without sex workers and trans people. We cannot work towards justice using the strategies of our oppressors. And it is work to live your life honestly and intentionally in a world that relies on control and exploitation. It is work to sacrifice the comfort we all deserve in order to secure that comfort for everyone. And I am proud of you for doing that work. I am so grateful to you for doing that work. Because none of us can do this alone. [00:40:30] We are all rebelling against the same system, and if any of us manage to find justice for ourselves at the expense of others, we have failed. Every day that we choose to live authentically is a step towards liberation for ourselves. And every day that we decide to show up for each other is a step towards liberation for everyone. The effects of our oppression are diverse, but the solution for all of us is the same. Burn the fucking patriarchy. And, uh, sign our petition. Thank you.[00:41:00] Thank you. This is just currently speaking with the media, so I'm going to introduce our next speaker, Terri Bellamack from Abortion Law Reform New Zealand. Tēnā koutou. Kia ora koutou. Ahi ahi marie. My name is Terri, and I'm a life member and a former president of ALRAN's [00:41:30] Abortion Rights Aotearoa. And I'm here to tell you that Al Rans supports trans rights. LGBT folks were there for us during abortion law reform, and now we are here for them. During the fight for law reform, especially at the end when we were organizing [00:42:00] rallies and petitions and marches, the LGBT community was front and center. They were all in. We appreciate that. And we have not forgotten. It's important that everybody who supports the bodily autonomy of pregnant people and of everybody come together. Trans[00:42:30] rights are human rights! Trans rights are human rights! Trans rights! Trans rights are human rights![00:43:00] Damn right. So now it's trans rights that are under attack. From the same people who were opposing reproductive rights. What a coincidence. And now, so these same right wing extremists and their fellow travelers are out there. Yelling about, who knows what they're yelling about. And here we are. And here is [00:43:30] Al Rantz. We are in it for the long haul. We're not going anywhere. Now the fight for reproductive rights is not over. We see it all over the world. Reproductive rights and trans rights are getting hammered. Especially in places like the U. S. Where right wing coalitions of people like, you know, TERFs [00:44:00] Fundamentalists, Christian Dominionists, white supremacists, and other racists in cells. And other anti feminists, and of course, you're straight up Nazis, are coming together to try and remove, fuck off, to try and come together and strip the human rights from people they do not consider to be human. Fuck that.[00:44:30] And make no mistake, right wing extremists right here in Aotearoa, including TERFs. They're trying to drag us all back to the world of the 1950s back when cis white men and their authority were not questioned. Abortion rights matter for everybody. Human rights matter for [00:45:00] everybody. Absolutely everybody, even if it's not your rights that are being challenged today. So, we have an election coming up. And National's leader, Christopher Luxon, evangelist. Yeah. Dude, who says he believes that abortion is tantamount to murder.[00:45:30] Has promised that he would not repeal the Abortion Legislation Act. Well, there's a problem with that. Because there's an awful lot of damage that an anti abortion administration can do to abortion rights and abortion access without even repealing. Like, for instance, they could change the Care of Children Act so that teens who want to get abortion care have to get their parents permission. This is something that [00:46:00] Posey Parker supports. As if we needed another reason to dislike that idea. Or safe areas. An anti abortion government could just not approve any, and thus harassing people outside abortion clinics. Would continue to not be illegal as it is, as it is not illegal right now, because unfortunately the present government has also not approved any safe areas after a year.[00:46:30] So to preserve our rights, we need to vote like our fundamental human rights are at stake because they are. Yeah. So today we are here and we stand together. And we will win. Our opponents would like nothing better than to divide us. Fuck that.[00:47:00] Especially Terps. Trying to paint themselves as feminists. No. That's bullshit. The feminist movement is intersectional. If feminism does not include LGBT people, well, that's not feminism. Because we are all here for the same purpose. To fight [00:47:30] the patriarchy. And the sensible people of Aotearoa support us. 74% of New Zealanders support reproductive rights. And 80% of New Zealanders support trans rights. Trans rights are human rights. Trans rights are human rights. [00:48:00] Trans rights are human rights. Trans rights are human rights. Trans rights are human rights, transparency, human right. So that's why we're out here. Al Rantz is here to support our trans siblings. We're here today. We'll be here next time and the time after that until [00:48:30] everyone, everyone is safe from violence and their, their human rights are recognized and respected. So, thanks for listening. Thanks for coming out. Ka kite ano.[00:49:00] Trans rights are human rights, and trans rights are also women's rights, just as women's rights are trans rights. I'm now going to introduce our final speaker, Alice, after which we will hear a brass band playing in our support, and then we're Welcome, Alice. Kia ora, everyone. My name is Alice. I use she, her pronouns. Thank you. [00:49:30] Transmisogyny is a unique evil. While it's common for less powerful groups to be scapegoated for all things that are wrong in the world, it's rare that members of those groups are simultaneously deemed not to exist. Our existence is caricaturized and mocked. Our resistance to these false characterizations is turned around and used against us. The trans debate is a broad and terrifyingly common specter that has been imported to Aotearoa and used to bolster the small sex of transphobia in our country. Many cis [00:50:00] commentators and bystanders miss. That transphobia has existed and been pervasive here, long before this international bigotry became the norm. Western right wing extremism has arrived through our media, and British transphobia has landed on our shores. And they both join a long running and scarily ignored underworld of hate. Ooh, I've got a halo. I moved to Pōneke for university from a small city with even smaller views. I was disappointed to [00:50:30] find that the same fight we started at home is still being fought here. I'm only 18, I've been out as trans for only 3 years, and already I'm tired. We are tired. Why is it that people are still unsure as to whether we even exist? Haven't we been here long enough? Haven't there been enough papers published and enough articles written? Being a trans person requires a constant expenditure of emotional energy devoted to justifying our existence. We are made to be experts in biology and sociology. Surgery and [00:51:00] endocrinology, philosophy and psychology, and uncountable other fields, and it still ends up being ignored. Social rights movements are always met with resistance, and often deadly resistance. But ours is unique because in addition to our rights being opposed, our very existence is doubted too. We are dehumanized and ignored. We are told that who we are is false. Every piece of evidence we provide is dismissed with, well, how do you know? And we're given the impossible task of proving reality to someone who will never believe us. [00:51:30] When we express our discontent with the oppression we experience in contemporary society, we invariably receive the same overused response from cis people. Why don't you just ignore them? If you don't give them your attention, they'll go away on their own. Aside from being obviously reductive, this ignores the reality of transphobia, and shifts the blame onto the trans community. By failing to challenge their hate, their door towards overt violence is left open. What these cis people miss, then, is the web of far right extremism, [00:52:00] and the calls for violence that exist just below the surface of the acceptable society in which they live comfortably. We do not have that luxury of comfort and complacency. The rise in anti trans hate is glaringly bright in the eyes of every trans person today, and the threat to our existence is omnipresent in everything we do. It is essential that cis allies of trans people make their own conceited, uh, concerted efforts to combat, sorry, I made a typo when I was writing this out and printed it out, and printing is expensive, so [00:52:30] I, um, yeah, um, concerted efforts to combat these transphobic undercurrents and oppose all those who spread them. This is a fight that trans people cannot win alone. Anti trans rhetoric at its roots calls for the non existence of trans people, and thus we are constantly forced into arguments with a deadly ultimatum. We cannot and will not compromise with those who call for our eradication. There is no platitude they can offer,[00:53:00] there is no platitude they can offer that does not jeopardize our rights and safety. A core issue arises in the powerful use of stereotype by the opposition. By characterizing trans women as violent, angry men in dresses, any pushback or realistic emotional reaction to their genocidal ideals is captured and thrown back at us as justification for their views. It is because of this that cisgender allies are so important in this fight. And why intersecting transfeminism with [00:53:30] other feminist movements is so important. The push for abortion rights carries vital and relevant themes of bodily autonomy and the right to self actualization. And feminist healthcare campaigns are intrinsically linked to our fight. Trans rights are inextricably intersectional. We must work together and present a unified front of unwavering support and resistance if we are to defend the right to our future. Thank you very much. Trans rights are [00:54:00] women's rights. Women's rights are trans rights. We are here together. All for one. And one for all. Kia kaha Poneke. Trans rights are human rights.[00:54:30] Trans rights are human rights! We are one! We are loved! We are one! We are loved! Trans rights! Human rights! Trans rights! Trans rights! Human rights! Human rights! We are loved! We are loved! We are one! We are one! Trans rights [00:55:00] are human rights! Trans rights are human rights! Woooooo! I am Emiliana Ravashkin. I was born in Colombia, uh, to a Ukrainian.. Jewish refugee, which is my mom, and I grew up in a very dangerous country where being intersex and trans is very, very, very difficult. I came as a refugee in 2014. I was in a [00:55:30] refugee camp in China for several months as a result of discrimination caused by my gender identity and expression and my variations of sex characteristics. I came to this country in 2014 and this country has been amazing. This country has given me all the peace, harmony, love that I never imagined was possible. And I love this country. I love Kiwis. I love, I love this land. And I feel so fucking safe. I feel so safe here that I, whenever I feel that my existence [00:56:00] is going to be challenging in any way or where somebody is actually actively advocating for. against my existence, my rights. I just, you know, I just don't find another way. Other than smashing them and splashing them. And I guess this brings us to the Posey Parker event that happened in Auckland. Can you describe what the feeling was like at that event? That day, I felt how much love there is for trans people in this country. I [00:56:30] just couldn't believe it. Uh, I would, I don't want to talk about the situation itself because that's something that we have to talk on 4th of July when we go to court, but the energy, the, how, how alive I felt that day and how all the community was so strongly together with the trans funnel. It was so many. Amazing, like an energy I've never seen in my life. It was one of the most beautiful days of my life. It's one of the [00:57:00] days that I will never forget. Because that day, trans rights were human rights. And the entire country said no to transphobia, no to fascism. It was so clear. It was crystal clear. And I just love that she left the country that very same day at night. Because she said, I can't. stand. I can't handle these people because she wants fascism to take to be in this country and I don't know, I will say always not a fascism. [00:57:30] We won't talk about what's currently before the courts at the moment, but after, after that event happened, how has it been like for you in terms of getting hate mail or people getting any kind of feedback? I've been getting multiples, I would say dozens of dead threats. Um, it is a reality. I am in Kiwi farms. Kiwi farms is one of the worst stalking places in the world. Uh, it's a, it's a place where they stalk and harass. [00:58:00] Trans people or everyone that the far right deems reasonable, reasonable to be harassed. So I've been harassed. I've been followed. I've been doxxed. I've been, I've experienced harassment in many places where I go including here in Wellington and people just feel like they can just do whatever they, whatever and, and I've been, there's been attempts of my life as well. I cannot go into detail on to these three instances where I've, I've Nelly Fira will die.[00:58:30] Because that's something that we will let the police to deal with. But they've been very serious and police are taking care of those situations. Um, but I mean, I'm not surprised when the big enemy that we're fighting is actually new Nazis. Like action slanda and these type of people are, they are the ones that are inciting violence against me. So I'm not surprised, uh, to, to, to experience what I'm experiencing because that's the language they use. They don't know, they don't speak [00:59:00] any other language. They just speak violence. How does all of that make you feel? I, I'm not afraid of dying because I've been, I experienced so many difficult things in my life that I honestly, I don't feel afraid of dying. I actually, I only feel happy about being alive because I am very happy. I'm the happiest person because I am so happy that this country has given me the opportunity to just be authentically hundred [00:59:30] percent who I am and I have fallen in love with myself. I love everything about me and I love myself so much that I'm not afraid even of dying. The life expectancy of trans people in my country is 35 years old. I am 35 years old right now. I made it! I am an octogenarian in my country already, so every single year, every year that I have more in my life is just bonus for me and I'm just gonna keep living, slaying, living my truth, being happy, genuine, authentic, and [01:00:00] fighting for and with my community. You must also head. a huge amount of support. Can you tell me a wee bit about the support you've had? Yes, look at this. Look at, look at people dancing and my community, not just in Oteroa, in Australia, in all over the world. Tomatoes are a symbol of trans liberation. Tomato juice is just like, such a like, stupid thing to be like, such a powerful tool to To fight fascism, it's such a pacific way of fighting such a big demon, such [01:00:30] a scary enemy and I'm very happy that we crystallize our, this symbol in such a beautiful way. Yeah, slay. Trans rights! Trans rights! Trans rights! [01:01:00] Trans rights are human rights! We support trans wrongs. Trans rights are human rights. I've got a bigger megaphone Tartle,[01:01:30] tartle [01:02:00] wedge. Tartle, tartle wedge.[01:02:30] There is now quite big crowds on both sides, um, they're trying to give a speech through a steady little megaphone, um, and they're trying to block me from seeing them, which is dumb because I can see between them. Um, we've got a much bigger crowd with a much bigger speaker and much louder chants, and they're kind of just spouting their same old asinine bullshit, um, I'm just taking the piss out of them. It's quite fun actually. Um, yeah, you know, they love to try and instigate violence against [01:03:00] us, so if any of them come across and say anything to me, then it kind of proves them wrong. Are you able to, uh, read some of the signs? Yeah, so there's one big one held up high that says turf premises are flawed, um, a big banner at the front says acceptance saves lives and hate kills, um, and then feminists for trans rights and liberation for all. Um, there's one up there that says this fruit kills fascists with a bunch of, um, tomatoes, which is of course, iconic. Um.. Yeah, [01:03:30] lots of signs, lots of love on our side. Lots of hate on theirs. We're not going anywhere, we're here! We're not going anywhere, we're here! We're queer! We're not going anywhere! We're here. We're queer! We're not going anywhere! We're here. We're queer! We're not going [01:04:00] anywhere! Go home trans folks, go home! Trans rights are human rights! Trans rights are human rights! Trans rights are human[01:04:30] rights! Trans rights are human rights! Woo! Yeah, uh, we're here today to counter protest Speak Up for Women on May 3rd, 2023. Can you describe the scene? Um, it's kind of a party over here. Lots of chanting. Um, [01:05:00] the people over there are trying to block us out. But it's not really happening because we're pretty loud. Can you describe the kind of numbers and the signs as well? Um, yeah, we've got over.. I think we have bigger numbers than they do, but um, They have a few, they have a few signs. They've got one big white, white and green sign with um, with the Venus symbols on it. Sex can't be changed, protect gender and [01:05:30] non conformity in our youths. Don't trans the gay away. Another sign is real LGB allies won't tell lies. Your body is your authentic you. Which is like, Well, we know our bodies are our authentic selves. That's why we change them to, to, to like really greater, like reflect it. It's getting quite noisy here. Can you describe the, some of the chants and some of the feelings that you're feeling? Yeah, [01:06:00] um, there was trans rights or human rights, uh, puberty blockers save lives. Uh, we're here, we're queer, we're not going anywhere. Um, I really like that one. Uh, personally I was trying to chant, um, trans rights are women's rights as well, because, because it is. Like, um, trans people have historically worked hard with feminist movements for, for bodily autonomy of everyone. [01:06:30] We shall overcome! We shall! We shall overcome! We shall overcome! We shall overcome! We shall[01:07:00] And we will overcome. We are the future. And you are the past. I'm going to speak to the other side now. We don't hate you as much as you hate us. We are predominantly young. And we do not want to go into the future with hate in our hearts, [01:07:30] the way that you are walking towards your graves with hatred in your hearts. It is not too late to change your minds. I guarantee you, you have loved ones who are trans, and instead of making their lives harder, you could be supporting them. We are over here living our lives, being ourselves. I do my hair toss, check my nails. Baby, how you feelin I do [01:08:00] my hair toss, check my nails. Baby, how you feelin Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Te Faka Pono, Me Te Rangi Te[01:08:30] aroha. One more time. Te whakahono. Me te rangi marie. Ta tau, ta tau e. We stand together in solidarity. Trans rights are women's rights. Women's rights are trans rights.[01:09:00] You will find us in the front row. Of the women's rights movement standing up for our cis sisters and our trans sisters. We are together. You would divide us, but we will not be divided. Trans rights are human rights! Trans rights are human rights! Human [01:09:30] rights are trans rights! So my name is Will Henson, um, I'm a trans man, um, and I've been here at the, um, anti, uh, the counter protest, um, that's pro trans, anti TERF, the Speak Up For Women, uh, trans exclusionary radical feminists. Or anti trans crowd opposite us, on the barriers opposite us, with all their really long and badly worded signs.[01:10:00] And we're here with lots of colour and noise and, um, we've been protesting to show our support for trans communities. Can you describe what the feeling's been like? Uh, it's been, I feel like it's been a whole mixture of feelings for me. I've felt, it's been kind of tense. And when the anti trans groups started to come up towards the fence, it was a bit tense. And they started getting closer, but it turned pretty quickly into celebration, as you can probably hear behind me. It felt really good to have everyone around. supporting and [01:10:30] all the color and all of the signs and all of the music was fantastic. So I feel really hopeful and really proud. You've just been overseas. I think you're in Canada. Yeah. Um, can you tell me what, give me an international perspective on what we're seeing here in Wellington? Yeah. So I've just been in Canada at the Making Trans Histories. Moving Trans History Forward, um, conference at the University of Victoria over there. So I got to meet trans people from all around the world, and everywhere around the world everyone is so concerned about this growing right wing of fascism that is, [01:11:00] um, targeting trans people as their kind of primary scapegoat at the moment. TERFs, the allyship that they have with fascists, um, is really, really strong. And in the United States, of course, there's about like, I don't know, 300 anti trans bills going through at the moment, something ridiculous. So, um, Americans are really, really freaking out and, and everyone around the world, they're facing all of these, this kind of backlash. So, um, yeah, so, um, so there was definitely a feeling that everywhere around the world, everyone's really concerned and [01:11:30] wanting to. figure out ways to strategize together. Why do you think there's a groundswell of kind of anti trans sentiment at the moment? What is driving that? Oh, that's a good question. I'm not sure. I think, um, in general, capitalism is driving the right wing and fascism and, um, TIFs just happen to be at the kind of visible point in that and I guess the trans visibility that we're having kind of has this backlash as well. Trans liberation is growing closer, I think, and so I think that we're getting this backlash as well. When you were [01:12:00] over in Canada, were you able to report to delegates from overseas about what was happening in New Zealand? Because this was at a time when Posey Parker was here, yeah? Yes, I was actually on my flight like the day that the Posey Parker protest in Wellington was happening. Um, so I was telling everyone over there, everyone had kind of.. Started to hear about things, um, and they were all pretty, um, they were all pretty, uh, impressed that so many New Zealanders were out and about, but, um, yeah, I, I think the, the sense I got from a lot of people from the Americas and from Europe was, wow, it's [01:12:30] happening even in New Zealand, but I think maybe they don't necessarily They didn't necessarily realize that, um, we have a really strong anti trans current over here as well, um, and a lot of that's been, but it's been driven by, um, the UK, and it's been driven by the United States, and, uh, I believe Posey Parker was funded by a right wing U. S. lobby group, so, um, even though we do have a strong and vocal contingent here, they are a minority, They're very, very small. Um, we've got way more people in support, and especially way more lesbians in support. And I think that's a narrative that gets drowned out a lot. But [01:13:00] the lesbian group that are part of Speak Up for Women are very, very small and tiny. They're just very loud. And we have to say, because actually you, you, you weren't here, but um, it was an amazing feeling in Civic Square when Posey had left New 4, 000 trans supporters in Civic Square. So the um, size of support, particularly here in um, Te Whanganui o Tāna is huge. Yeah, which is fantastic. And I guess the other thing I've been thinking about, I've been thinking while I've been standing here at Parliament about, in 2004, the first protest on [01:13:30] record that was for trans issues in front of Parliament, um, I believe it was for the gender identity amendment to the Human Rights Bill, I think, that Georgina Beyer was leading and the The size of the crowd was quite small, but I saw some familiar faces even from then, like Roger Swanson, he was in that crowd, and now he's here again 20 years later. I was thinking about that, and I was thinking about, um, in 1974, the first trans protest on record outside, uh, public bathrooms in Christchurch, uh, was a sit in by the Transsexuals and Transvestites Union. joined by the local [01:14:00] lesbian feminist group, She, and by the Christchurch Gay Liberation Front. And I don't know how many numbers were there, but I imagine it was quite small, so I guess seeing, uh, how many more numbers, and knowing that we've got that long and proud history, but it's a history that's growing in momentum, um, is really exciting. And it's hugely courageous to be here today, because actually there, there is.. There is, there is kind of rhetoric being spouted that is like really hateful. It is scary, and I feel especially for, um, my trans siblings who are more [01:14:30] visible, and uh, for trans women especially, um, I know Eli Rubushkin was here, um, who's a friend of mine, and I was pretty, yeah, nervous for their safety, nervous for everyone's safety really, because. Yeah, they're pretty spiteful over there, on that side of the barrier. But the protest organisers managed it really well. They did a really awesome job and kept everyone feeling safe. So this year is going to be an election general election in New Zealand. Do you have any words for politicians or would be politicians? Um, I guess my only words are, [01:15:00] um, Support, listen to trans communities, and listen to people who've advocated for trans communities for a long time, like Dr. Elizabeth Kirikiri, who's done fantastic work backing us for a long, long time, and it's people like her that I'm giving my support to, yeah. Uh, we're outside of Parliament, um, I'm a trans woman, a trans teenager, and I guess I care a lot about, uh, advocating for my community. Can you describe the crowds? Yeah, so, uh, there seemed to be two different crowds, uh, Speak Up for Women, which was a group of TERFs who were [01:15:30] speaking out against trans people and trans rights, and on the other side we had the queer community, uh, shouting in solidarity for trans people. Were you able to speak at all? Yes, I was able to speak. Um, I waited 20 minutes inside the Speak Up For Women group and, uh, cheered along with them to all their speeches, and I waited my turn and I was able to give a speech. And I said to them, I said, I am a 17 year old biological female. I am scared of my future. My bodily autonomy is up for debate each day. They were cheering along with me. me I said how I've [01:16:00] been sexually harassed, walking down the street and I get paid less than my male counterparts in work, they're all cheering along with me. And at the end of my speech I said, and most importantly, I'm a transgender woman. My name is Willow and I'm a biological female and I'm 17 years old and I'm scared of my future. My body is debated by grown men. I have been raped. I am followed home. I am harassed. I am paid less than my male counterparts at my job. What does [01:16:30] the future hold for me? My rights are debated on a daily basis. People who have no idea about what it means to live as a woman are debating what's in my pants. And most importantly, I am a trans woman. And we will always be here. I transitioned when I was 15 years old. I walked down this street as a woman. I am seen as a woman. I have been raped by men. I have [01:17:00] been harassed. We have existed prior to colonization. Munafuka one and F. Colonizers came and brought hatred And that's when they started shouting mad at me because they had no other, um, argument other than to just call me a man and try, ironically, silence me. [01:17:30] So I walked out of there and I think that was.. It's quite an accomplishment showing them that I do in fact go through the same struggles as them and they agreed with that up until they knew my biological sex, which if I hadn't disclosed it, I think I would have gone away with it. It's an incredibly courageous thing to do to go right into that group. I guess so. I thought it was just funny to be honest. I think it's a very ironic thing to do and I think it was successful. How would you describe both rallies today? Very [01:18:00] passionate on both sides. Um, I don't think there was. Um, much love coming from the Speak Up for Women group. I think there's nothing but aroha exerting from the queer community today. And I think that's such a demonstration of what's really going on. We've got people who just want to exist and to be loved and to love. And then we've got another group of people who take issue with that. This year is a general election here in New Zealand. Um, is there anything you'd like to say to the politicians? Mmm. Show up for us. [01:18:30] Not just when the cameras come out, and not just when you're interviewed and you want to name drop us for the sake of furthering your political career, show up for us in policy and in community. Advocate for us every step along the way because we do need you right now more than ever. So, my name's Tiahi, I'm a queer ally but a cishet man myself. Um, and this is, it's definitely been an experience. I've done marshalling a couple other times, but I, the thing with those is we were more expecting, um. [01:19:00] Resistance and we were not met with much, but this one we knew it was going to be here and it was and that was a very different experience, uh, from my point of view, but on the whole, um, I'm really proud of how we did. Uh, there was no real aggression. Um, and there was no Uh, real animosity between the two groups at the time. Uh, it was definitely, you know, yelling and jeering, but that's as far as that went. So I'm proud of us for, um, like, monitoring that, uh, and [01:19:30] having some control about how we manage ourselves in that situation. I'm very proud of everyone there. But, um, I just wanted to say, when we fought for the rights of women over a century ago, um, we won. And now we just have to fight to retain those rights. When we fought for the rights of Maori many years ago, we won, and now we are fighting to retain those rights. Uh, when we fought for the rights of marriage, uh, gay marriage and gay couples, [01:20:00] we fought and we won, and now we fight to retain those. Um, and one day we will fight to retain these, because we will win. Because that is what history has shown us.

IRN: 3596
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/city_talks_in_behind.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004711
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093101
TITLE: City Talks - In/Behind
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Andrew Caldwell; Jan Smitheram; Matt Ritani; Vivian Lyngdoh; William Creighton
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Andrew Caldwell; Aotearoa New Zealand; Carmen Rupe; City Gallery Wellington Te Whare Toi; Cuba Street; Jan Smitheram; Khasi tribe; Matt Ritani; Mātauranga Māori; Nazism; Neo-Nazism; Ngāti Toa Rangatira; Posie Parker; Pulse nightclub (Orlando, USA); Tahlia Aupapa-Martin; Te Kāhui Whaihanga New Zealand Institute of Architects; Tennent Brown Architects Ltd; Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); Vivian Lyngdoh; Wellington; Wellington Pride; Wellington Pride Festival; Wellington Pride Festival (2023); William Creighton; academia; academics; architecture; bell hooks; heteronormativity; queer; queer space; safe space; takatāpui
DATE: 20 March 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: City Gallery Wellington Te Whare Toi, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the panel discussion In/Behind, held at City Gallery Wellington on 20 March 2023. Matt Ritani (Ngāti Toa Rangatira) leads the panel discussion that explores the unique qualities of queer space-making and how space can be an expression of identity, aroha and innovative domesticity. A special thanks to NZIA Wellington (New Zealand Institute of Architects Wellington Branch) and participants for allowing this to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi, uh, uh, welcome to the First City Talk of 2023. Um, we're all very glad to have you here, um, today to [00:00:30] talk about, um, Queer space making in . Um, uh uh, hi. Um, uh, [00:01:00] Just wanted to acknowledge, um, Te Kahui Whaihanga Wellington branch, um, for organising this talk. Uh, also our hosts, City Gallery and, um, also the Wellington City Council Event Fund that supports, um, this kaupapa. Um, so today we have some time, um, and some space to share a conversation. Um, I'll be introducing you to, um, our panellists shortly who will introduce themselves. Um, [00:01:30] and we'll be going through a series of questions and, um, a conversation, and then we'll round out for Pātai at the end. So, aye. Um, so I will hand it over to.. Kia ora, or just let me know if it's too loud. Um, iti taha, uh, iti taha o toku mama iuri au, um, no Aotearoa. Iti taha o tōku [00:02:00] pāpā, um, Hi uri o no whenua moemoea. So, my father is embarrassingly from Australia, but I grew up here. Um, my name is William. I'm a recent graduate of Victoria, where I studied under Jan. Um, and my thesis was on queer space, um, in particular about anti urbanism and kind of finding these little hidden moments of queerness, um, through spatial research. Um, I'm now working at Tenet Brown Architects in the city, um, and I've been there for coming up a [00:02:30] year on Monday, next week, so, whoo! Um, and my boss is up there as well, so, very supportive. Yep, that's a little bit about me. I'll pass over. Kia ora tatou, namaste, I'm Vivian Lindo, I, I'm from, um, the north, northeast of India from a small tribe named the Khasi tribe. Um, I come from a.. beautiful line of feminine energy because we follow the matrimonial society in northeast India. Um, the work I [00:03:00] do, I sit as co chair of London Pride Festival, so I'm a maker of queer spaces, um, within Puneke. I also sit in a, um, select committee in government called the Fakipiri, which is providing advice, um, to government as to how to be more accessible for our rainbow communities in the public service. Um, I'll leave it there, but I'm very excited to be here today, so thank you so much for having us, Matt. Hi, I'm Jan, um, Dr. Jan [00:03:30] Smitheram. And I, I suppose one way to situate myself is I'm an academic at Victoria University of Wellington, where I'm now into my 17th year of teaching there. Um, I've, again, as William's already pointed out, I supervised his thesis on queer space. Um, the other thing I was going to mention is.. I still play Pokemon Go. There we go. Kia ora. Um, one thing I also just want to cover off, um, in the conversation that we're going through today, um, [00:04:00] and some of the content that we're dealing with, um, deals with uh, transphobia and racism. So, just wanting to do a bit of a content warning for that, um, both those who are online and here. It's also kind of safe to move out of the space if it's, um, uncomfortable for you as well, so just wanted to acknowledge that at the outset. Um, I was really excited about, um, pulling together this conversation when I was asked to by, um, the Wellington branch. [00:04:30] And, um, I guess as a starting provocation for this conversation, I reflected on, I guess, someone that I felt was.. a very important queer space maker in Pōneke, and for those who are unfamiliar on the screen, you can see Carmen Rupe, Ngāti Maniapoto, Ngāti Hauā, Ngāti Hikiawai. Recently, we, our whānau were going through some kind of whakapapa information, and I found out that [00:05:00] she actually is a relative. of mine, um, through our, um, dad grew up in, in Dinnyvirk, which was quite close to Toa Mata Nui, um, but, uh, Carmen, I think, was extremely influential, um, in establishing queer spaces, uh, both in Wellington, um, but I, I guess even kind of politically across the Motu, um, even though she was based here in, in Sydney as well. Um, and so the name of this.. Talk. Um, and [00:05:30] behind comes from Carmen's, um, mural t campaign slogan, uh, get in Behind . Um, which as you can imagine at that time was quite, um, a challenging and trans transgressive, um, comment. And, you know, she was kind of mold breaking, um, in, in, in who she was and, and the things that she was able to do. And I was also reflecting on. Um, attributes of I guess queer spaces [00:06:00] that I had inhabited and the, um, this notion of they were not always kind of directly out there or kind of present in the urban realm and there was often like a process of access and um, maneuver to find yourself and locate yourself within that queer space. So, um, that's kind of the starting point for our conversation tonight, um, that our panel is going to respond to. Um, [00:06:30] but I guess with that as a, as a starting point, my first, uh, Part I for our panel is what does queer space making mean for you? I think with queer space. It's There's kind of an almost undefinable characteristic to it Um, I know I've talked a lot to Matt about it and Jan as well through the research but it's so much about a feeling of acceptance in that space and in order to make that Environment is [00:07:00] so Challenging because you're trying to translate a feeling into a physical, but it's a feeling that's so personal to each queer experience. And I think part of the challenge that we face moving forward as queer people is like, you have your own experience, but that might not be cohesive with other queer experiences, so then how do you articulate that in an environment? And so I think what we're finding now with architecture is that queer space making becomes a far more collaborative project. Um, which is great, because you get that sort of breadth of experience and voices [00:07:30] coming out. Um, in moments like this, where we don't have all architects and we don't have all practicing. Um, yeah, it provides that kind of opportunity where those kind of secondary voices are brought forward. Um, so yeah, for me, Queerspace is really about that collaboration. So, yeah, I'll pass it on. Um, for me, Queerspace, um, especially when I'm lecturing, I always mention it as a safe space. So, being a safe space, by that I mean a space where you can actually question [00:08:00] heteronormative ideals, but also a space where you can express your sexuality, your gender, without being qualified, marginalized, or dismissed for your position. Um, yeah, so in terms of teaching, I always rest, and it's infiltrated through all of my lectures now, just, um, Sarah Hadnead's work in terms of actually being able to feel like you can take up space. And the fact that if you take up space.. [00:08:30] that you can feel a part of that space. Thank you. Um, for me, queer spacing would be, personally from becoming co chair at Wellington Pride, is to look who is missing in the room. Um, and as I navigated through Pride Festival, I noticed Many faces like myself, who's brown, and many of my friends who are black and indigenous and people of color are missing from queer spaces. So addressing the whiteness has come through in queer spaces and completely marginalized [00:09:00] us as people within the margins itself. So through the Pride Festival, what we did was, um, with my co chair, um, Talia Opapa Martin, who's one of the very first, um, indigenous people to become co chair for. Uh, the Wellington Pride Festival. We community, we did a community design, um, to implement a document called Te Fariki. Te Fariki is this foundational document that acknowledges the harm that, you know, pride has created to particular marginalized communities. [00:09:30] And start creating.. spaces, particularly within these communities to be allowed to come into pride. Um, so, and this also was voted in and we're going to hold, you know, future pride boards accountable so that they, when they make spaces, um, within the queer diaspora that they think of all of those communities have been forgotten. Um, so that's my passion for queer space making. Um, but I'll pass it on to the next part. I just kind of stepping through a few conversation, I guess [00:10:00] for me and this question, um, Um, I was reflecting on like a space that I had inhabited, which again, um, is, this is a photo of me and I think Vivian is in the background somewhere, but, um, this comes from an event that, um, Vivian organized called Frills, um, and it was a really kind of incredible party, and, and I was reflecting and, um, leading into this conversation like the, the qualities that made it quite, [00:10:30] Kind of extraordinary and um, just the way that people would dress up, the textiles, the color, the like vast permutations that a human could possibly represent themselves within this thing changed the space, um, that was occurring, that I was kind of entering there and as did I as kind of a participant in the, in the fabric of that space, so um, yeah, that's kind of what that meant. Go [00:11:00] For me, um, I think I'd like to circle back to our conversation about, um, safe spaces. And particularly, uh, in the current time, both within New Zealand and more internationally, um, this image, for those who are not familiar, is from the Pulse nightclub shooting. For those who are not aware, it was, um, a kind of terrorist act against, um, [00:11:30] the Latinx community, um, who were attending Pulse nightclub at the time, so queer Latinx, um, community, so, um, Jan, as you were saying before, the kind of, um, the space to be oneself without a mask. Yeah. Kind of restraint or anything like that, um, is one thing in your kind of identity, but it is another thing, again, in your physical safety. So, keen on kind of reflections and [00:12:00] safer space more broadly at this current time. Safe space, again, is quite a challenge because you're dealing with the intersectionality of other issues as well. So, I mean, a safe space for me might not be a safe space for Jen, or.. For Vivian, and I think that's also, yeah, kind of hard to articulate spatially. You're obviously dealing with kind of simple concepts like lighting and lines of safety when it comes to architecture. But, in a lot of our urban space, that isn't [00:12:30] always possible. Um, and there's also, you know, a time and place for it, a less lit area still being a safe space or an environment where someone can feel comfortable. So, yeah, I guess the difficulty is trying to articulate it. And providing a range of those spaces throughout the urban fabric, which kind of catered to a variety, but then you have these kind of main thoroughfares that provide this kind of like spine network where people feel really safe, it's well lit. Um, you can kind of see [00:13:00] that a little bit with Cuba Street, which provides kind of a bit of both, where it's, it's, you know, there's a lot of passive surveillance through occupation of that space, but then you also have these kind of Side streets and back corners that provide a kind of privacy that you don't get on the main part of Cuba Street. So Yeah, safety is kind of there's not necessarily one right answer I don't know if that's helping or more confusing, but maybe that's gonna be the thing tonight Um, safe space would be, you know, I was just reading up today, um, on a study done by Dr. [00:13:30] um, Fraser down at the University of Otago, um, where they, um, interviewed a small section of, um, queer people and queer people in general face a higher amount of homelessness. In, not even, not only in Altea, but across the world, we represent 5 10% of the population, but we statistically, um, face homelessness about 20 40%. So, um, and it's even worse as you go through the intersections of marginalization for, for queer people. So, safer space for [00:14:00] me is having a home, to be honest. Um, because You know, a social housing that is, um, that's welcoming to our communities, and it's lacking at the moment in El Tiro. It needs to be called out, um, to government to address these issues properly. And as we look across, you know, what's happening at the moment in, in Melbourne, if you all have not seen the transphobia that's come through, um, you know, Posy Carker, um, recently, and, um, yeah, you could see the, the systems of authority that were supposed to protect, [00:14:30] um, you know, trans people and people who are here for trans rights were actually standing beside, um, you know, neo Nazis and TERFs. And that's something that we have to address, um, here in Aotearoa as well, as you Navigates away over here. Um, yeah, so safer spaces is like you said, it's a sense of feeling at home, to be honest, but at the moment systems are in place that are not. Allowing us to do that. Um, that's reality for us. [00:15:00] Um, but, um, we keep on fighting to find, to get more safer spaces here. I'm just reflecting since I started the shift in direction of conversation in terms of a safe space. Um, and again, you know, the conversations around safe spaces. space that Manuel had with the development of his thesis. It was critical to, you know, just how the project evolved. But I'm also reflecting on the fact that I approached safe space from a very safe academic way of framing it. Um, if [00:15:30] you didn't notice, I was quoting Ahmed, but there was also Stuart Allen in there as well, who I was quoting. And that's kind of a safety in itself. So, I suppose I'm just reflecting it's quite nice to frame these things without the question of what does it actually feel like. What does it actually mean when you're experiencing that? And that also goes into, I suppose, that notion of camouflaging a little bit as an academic. So normally instead of dealing with these issues head on, you know, you don your black and then kind of blend in while you kind of quote [00:16:00] people. But there's actually something that's actually felt about that. I was reflecting also in our conversation, um, uh, about, and I guess, uh, Uh, academia is one context and, um, as queer spacemakers in practice, um, is another context, but a particular question for you, Will, around what, um, what does it mean to, I guess, practice whilst queer?[00:16:30] My boss is up here, so be careful what I say. No, I'm kidding. Um, I mean, the first thing is to, and this is not always easy coming out of a research environment where.. I think you, I mean, most of us have experienced a pretty unilateral kind of opinion, especially around queerness that I think it's important to find a place to work where you feel accepted. I think that's the main priority. That's like absolute 101. Um, and I know that's not always, you know, it's a privilege to be able to say that I've been lucky enough to find that [00:17:00] space, but I think it's also one of those things that even in those spaces, you're going to get conversations come up, which are really. Um, slightly more challenging, let's say, than an academic environment, but those conversations, to be able to be open minded about educating people, um, certainly plays a role in that as a graduate. And it's, I mean, I think in particular with my research and thesis, it kind of, it's, yeah, you kind of put your queer hat on around the lunch table sometimes, but I think that's also really helpful because people are really interested in understanding that [00:17:30] if they're not from a queer background. And I think. There's also an honor, I think, or a privilege to be able to help them on their journey in understanding queerness. Um, there's moments of challenge through that. Um, and you don't want to talk on behalf of everyone in the industry and everyone in the queer community. Especially, I mean, you talk about architecture and we talk about diversity and it still has a way to go. So I think there are elements of not wanting to speak for other people. But, yeah, I think it's about playing [00:18:00] a small part of.. Um, yeah, part of everyone's journey in the office and, and just being there if, if someone needs to talk about it, I think it's, yeah, just being open minded. Um, I'll re, re put that question back to you, Jen, but I, there were a few things from our discussion that I just want to frame it with. Um, first, so it might be, I might do a vigil, so tell me a bit if I'm wrong, but um, there was a bell hooks quote that you shared with us, um, [00:18:30] queer not being about who you are having sex with, that can be a dimension of it, but queer as being about the self that is at odds with everything around it and has to invent and create and find a place to speak and to thrive and to live. So I was interested in your observations, and I know we've had a few conversations so far about the academic space and working in the academic space, but in a similar way to, um, well, kind of your reflections on that. I suppose in terms of working in an academic [00:19:00] space, first of all, um, I suppose I wanted the bell hooks quote there. Because one of the first exhibitions in architecture at Storefront Art in New York. I haven't quite got the name quite right there. Um, but it was actually not just, you know, it had Beatrice Colomina, Mark Wigley. Um, so that's a married couple, um, and it also had Eva Koska Sedgwick there. So it wasn't just, um, about, again, who you were having [00:19:30] sex with, but it was actually taking care to explore what queer space was. Um, in terms of being an academic, um, I'm always trying to work towards creating a safe space for students wanting to explore, you know, queer space in their thesis. But my approach is normally an intersectional approach. So an intersectional approach means that I'm interested in the intersections between gender, race, class, and sexuality and actually how [00:20:00] these are interrelated in terms of oppression or domination and actually also questions around privilege as well. And you know in terms of offering that as a Just kind of little opening places and actually the best placed in terms of an opening conversation Is I actually had my courses reviewed by the deputy Vice Chancellor Mataranga Maori and just in terms of just getting [00:20:30] words that to use in your course That starts to open out spaces for people to engage with Mataranga Maori in my theory course Or in terms of queer space. So it's kind of embedded in there, kind of an intersectional perspective, but more in terms of creating an opening. So for me, that's what education is, is creating this opening that people feel that it's, they can, it's a relatable space, you [00:21:00] know, but it's still a space of questioning and self reflection. Um. Another kind of observation that I want to make, um, following, following the Pulse example is, um, this is, and Vivian you might be able to speak more detailed to this, but this was a, um, I think a queer youth centre in Tauranga, yeah, that was, um, burnt down I think last year, um, [00:21:30] and I know If we look at the kind of examples in the US right now, where we have, um, kind of drag story time events being, being protested by kind of armed, um, people, uh, in the US context, I, I think it's really important to acknowledge that we are not so far away from that, um, and I think even if you were reflecting on New Zealand context, that kind of violence is not, um, foreign to these shores, shores either, so, [00:22:00] um, um, I just wondered while, while we're here and we'll move into a kind of a more theory space, but these are kind of very practical and real things for our community, um, and the safety of our communities and um, the constant work of, of maintaining them as safe spaces. But just wondering if from the work that you're doing, Vivian, if there's anything more that you'd like to speak in that space? Um, thanks for bringing up, um, um, you know, what happened in Auckland and [00:22:30] also what happened in Tauranga and recently, you know, last year that happened in Greymouth, I think, um, to Sam's church, um, who, um, they lovely, they turned it into a pink church in the West Coast, which is amazing. But, um, you know, what we tend to do in Aotearoa is we tend to think from what the conversations I've had that we, uh. Very different from, you know, ideologies, but it's filtering through America, but as the more conversations I have had here, especially at decision making tables, it [00:23:00] really comes through though. It's not that different at all. It just takes one person who's able to lead and believe in alt right wing ideology and lead and make these people come out. They would work. Um, And it also makes me reflect on this conversation, which I had, um, with a friend in Bangladesh, actually. Um, there was this queer activist, um, that started a, a safe queer space for his gay friends, um, and then got hunted down by, You know, [00:23:30] like that terrorist groups there, um, and unfortunately, one of them passed away, but he was able to give a call to his brother in the UK who flew him to Sri Lanka to escape. So, um. It, you know, it, it was quite an eye opening, um, story, really, around queer spaces, because it was supposed to be a safe haven, and there was no systems of protection in place that they got, um, and this is quite prevalent throughout the world, right, and it's even more so [00:24:00] now, um, as more alt right wing organizations come into board. Um, yeah, I'll just, that's just my thoughts on that. I think just to reply to that as well, we had a little bit of a talk last week about The idea of what we felt was the most safe space we've been in and I think you kind of immediately think oh It must be like a gay bar, but in actuality those Spaces aren't necessarily our safest in some way they provide kind of like a safe framework to be in but by organizing yourself in such a way and [00:24:30] the public realm you also As a result of that kind of protest of occupation, you end up putting a target on yourself. So I feel like that's a classic example of, okay, we're trying to come together in this environment and build this network kind of grassroots style, but then that immediately gets targeted. Um, so yeah, just building on what you've said about how we're not actually that far away from that line. Um, and that I think of. For me at least, I can talk that like some of the places where I felt safest is [00:25:00] actually when you kind of don't express queerness in such a way, um, with that kind of assimilation into heteronormative spaces where actually you kind of end up feeling safe. So, I don't know. It's kind of a challenging dynamic. We also thought it would be fun to have some good books and reading and theory. Um, to come out of this. So there's a, um, a series of, um, [00:25:30] books that we're going to talk to briefly and then go into another area. But, um, Jose Esteban Reynos is Cruising Utopia, um, to talk about, I guess, the, um, the stability of a queerness or, um, this ambition or this, um, this hope for. How queer people might live, um, he always discusses that as like a horizon of, a horizon that you never arrive at, [00:26:00] that, that is always shifting and evolving and changing and, um, one of the reflections that I have from that I guess is like, I don't know, the, the constant work that is required to advance that and to, um, ensure that our queer spaces evolve, accommodate, um, um, To kind of include, include everyone, um, under the umbrella that, that should be included within those spaces. I think I started [00:26:30] doing the list, didn't I? Oh, because I started going, oh, this book came out first, and then I went, no, it's the wrong one. Like, this came out before Betsky's book. Um, but I suppose I wanted to start there because it was, when I was a student, it was always on my desk. I just found it really such an exciting book because it was challenging that boundary between, especially private and public space, in a way that no other book at the time. So this came out in 1996. So, that kind of dates when I was at school, [00:27:00] but, yeah, it was brand new then, it's a bit weathered now, probably because of me. Betsky, 1997. So, I suppose, I mean, this was, it's been an important book for, um, everybody that I've supervised in different ways, or telling them to stop looking at it. I can see you pal, I'm sorry. Um, you know, because it was framing Queer Space in a very interiority, interior way, and it was also at a time when You know, queer space [00:27:30] was defined in terms of a white male, so it's been critiqued a lot since then, which was also in your thesis. It's working? Oh yeah. I think also from what you talked about a lot is that, and what we mentioned earlier was that with queer space by Betsky is that it's almost entirely oriented around the act of sex and our understanding of queerness has expanded so far beyond that now that even though this was kind of pioneering at the time it's It's aged a bit like blue cheese. Yep. [00:28:00] Yeah. Sorry for those of you that like Gorgonzola. Another thing, in the preparatory conversations that we've had, um, we kind of quickly abandoned wanting to arrive anywhere, um, cause it seemed that everything sort of meandered and everything was related to everything. But, um, uh, a strong element that came out of that conversation was this notion of a, of a queer materiality and I guess the divergences and [00:28:30] changes of what that could be, um, in different contexts for, um, for different people, but, um, we were reflecting on, um, uh, I guess, A lot of materials that we see within a kind of queer nightlife space have attributes of, um, vibrant visual effects, reflectiveness, um, They're very impactful, but they're also, [00:29:00] um, very light, fragile, temporal, um, Maybe don't have a particularly long shelf life, and I wondered in some ways that that was kind of a Both beautiful and kind of, um, sad reflection of queer, queer people as well, and in the same way that they are vibrant and, and, and beautiful, but at the same time have all of these kind of challenges and fragilities, not, not everyone, of course, but, um, yeah, so I [00:29:30] guess, cause I know that there are some diverse perspectives within this group. Um, if I was to kind of ask you what a queer materiality is, what, what do you think of? I think. And this is something that we've talked about. It's like the difference between fashion and architecture is quite small. And so when you talk about things like glitter or kind of tints, like tinsel y sort of textures, that also comes through a lot in fashion, so. There's almost like a softness to queer [00:30:00] materiality or there's a human scale because it's so personable in the way that it's created. So I don't know, can I say linen or a sort of fabric that seems transparent but still covers? I think that's where my mind goes is like this idea of again, of hiding or revealing yourself through the material. Um, so yeah, kind of like a semi transparent sort of a linen colorful though. Um, queer materiality for me is, um, it's not really physical. I [00:30:30] think it's more like shared kai with all my queer friends. Um, we tend to do that quite a bit. And, um, And just share experiences and share stories, um, and design our food to reflect a particular cuisine, you know, and it's just that deeper level of belonging, um, and that's how it materializes for me personally, um, as it allows me to navigate, um, conversations when it comes to policy making or legislation or any of [00:31:00] that, um, because those spaces, issues. materializes that way for me, um, and I love all the glam of, you know, that Frills has created as well because that has created a lot of stories, um, that has definitely, um, aligned me about what I'm doing with the Pride Festival. Well, I was the one. In our earlier discussions, it always shifted away that the tinsel's been packed away now. Um, so there's some sort of ambivalence to materiality. [00:31:30] So, I flipped through my Queer Space book, which is sitting on the other side of the couch, which I had to bring for a prop for whatever reason. So I started flicking through that through the weekend. And, trying to go.. You know, what happens in this kind of ambivalent space. So, my example, which you can see is, um, noted there, again, I've gone for an example, is looking at a mixed design and Joel Saunders Architects in terms of, again, creating a safe space. So, just the redesigns of public toilets at an [00:32:00] airport, um, that is actually open to everyone. So, instead of, um, going with gender binaries in terms of designing the bathrooms, they just went with elimination, washing, and grooming. And so, for me, I'm going with that as materiality, rather going on about fading tinsel. There are just a few, a few ones that I wanted to touch on here. Um, this is the cover from Sophie's The Oil of Every [00:32:30] Pearl's Uninsides. I may have got that wrong. Um, who was an electronic musician who I think passed away in, in 2019. Um, but there, there's an, an interview, um, from her, uh, where she was talking about kind of, um, electronic music. And I remember vividly that she talked about what would the sound of a piano that was as tall as a mountain. Sounds like. And, um, These [00:33:00] are a number of, I think, slides or most of them are slides of these, um, that were kind of various EP covers for all of these songs. And again, these slides don't exist. They're, um, entirely kind of synthetic. And I also think of the work of, um, Aka, who's also a trans musician kind of existing within the same space that is, Um, Kind of epic, but isn't real, but like, is real, [00:33:30] because it is, that, that sort of thing. So, those were the, these are the kind of ones that I return to, and, um, thinking about, um, what a queer materiality is or could be. Um, cool. So, moving on. Uh, we're, we, of course, Um, or practice in different ways within the space and relate to queer space in different [00:34:00] ways. I'm really interested in kind of, um, where, where you're located in the work that you do. How your queerness influences the way that you work or the way that you operate. Hi. Hi. Um, I'm still figuring this out. I think I'm only a year in practice and I think it's a slow burn, but. Um, Andrew and I, in a kind of wider group, um, a lot are here tonight, um, have been working on a bit of a project, and maybe Andrew [00:34:30] can say a few words in Q and A, possibly, um, about this, but, um, yeah, working on how do we fulfill or create a guideline document for, um, NZIA to pass out to firms around public bathrooms and how they can be more equitable, um, and hopefully at one point they might get into legislation. Um, so we'll see how far we can push it, but, um, yeah, I think there's a, an element of, of coming together as multiple queer people practicing, um, that can be [00:35:00] really advantageous. Again, it's just about creating a unified kind of group of people, but with different opinions and different voices. Um, I know from that conversation, there was a difficulty around, okay, certain religions don't. I don't actually want totally gender neutral bathrooms, and so how do you facilitate occupation that has those intersections of, you know, allowing the broadest range of possible occupation, especially in public space is critical, um, [00:35:30] I don't know, it's kind of a roundabout way, my identity, yeah, um, yeah, I think it's about advocacy, but it's also about implementation, and I think there's a opportunity for both in practice, and I think The day to day is very much about like, Oh, I mean, one of my bosses came up to me and we're doing a retrofit of a, of a tall building in the city and was asking, Oh, how do I, how do I make this a better bathroom? Because the sheer walls are so tight and it's an old building and it was a gender split bathroom orientation when it was first built. How do I do it [00:36:00] if there's multiple, um, businesses on the same floor? So really difficult questions that don't necessarily need to get answered. But, I don't know, I'm kind of rambling now, but day to day it's more challenging because if you have to put it pen to paper it's much more complex than just talking about it, or having a conversation around a table, especially for things like retrofits, I think that's almost ten times harder than a new build, with a new build there's kind of no excuse for, yeah, for doing gender bathrooms, but, um, [00:36:30] retrofit is kind of the challenge I think. Yeah, I don't know, ramble off. How does my identity, um, my identity influences all my work, to be honest, um, a being brown, that really influences my work, um, then being queer and being a migrant. So everything I do and every advice I provide, all those three intersections would be combined to provide advice. Um, so they're very blessed to have me because I come from these marginalizations and can speak, I believe on, on, [00:37:00] um, on my own behalf. Um, and the experiences I've experienced here in Aotearoa. Um, yeah, the bathroom one, it's so interesting because we're talking about that at work at the moment. Um, And they're like, we do have gender neutral bathrooms. I was like, well, it's just one floor and it's also an accessible bathroom and we've got 10 floors. So, as you're expecting people in, with accessibility issues and people who are not in the, who are non binary and not gender conforming to go to one bathroom in the building. Um, [00:37:30] so it's those difficult conversations of, um, they're trying to be inclusive, but not all the way. And it's so difficult at, um, and You know, it really hurts me all the time because you're trying to have these conversations with the guise of diversity and inclusion, but it comes to at the detriment of, it only pushes you to a certain path. Um, yeah, but we, but the bathroom one I would love to talk some more, [00:38:00] um, because it is a conversation that keeps coming up at work as well. Um, yeah, but coming back to the identities, I think. Yeah, all those, any marginalization group that I belong in, I will always speak because it always, um, affects my work. I won't say too much because I think I've already addressed this with the question around the influence of my work. Um, yeah, I mean, yeah, I approach my work through an intersectional approach [00:38:30] to my research and increasingly my teaching. Cool. So we have the, we have the quite fun, fun one to, to round up the back end of our, of our conversation. Um, and we have some examples that follow this that we're going to speak to as well. But, um, we're here in Pōneke in, in the city, um, that we love inhabiting. And I, a question that I have for you all is if I were to kind of [00:39:00] challenge you to, you know, you've got unlimited budget. You can do whatever you want, um, anything you like, anything at all. Um, extending on our conversation, um, if you could make, you know, your ideal queer space in this city, can you tell us about it? What would it be like to be there? Um, yeah, this is kind of a conversation that actually all four of us have had a lot about, and it's kind of, I don't know, dreaming, which is great. Um, we talked about, [00:39:30] well for me in particular, I would look at it kind of.. multi user, um, urban intervention, something that includes that sort of housing we talked about, that being a comfort space. And I think that leads on to a lot of Jan's research as well around domestic versus public, public and private, and domestic spaces, I mean, historically have been like a reinforcer of heteronormative relationships. I think housing, and queer housing in particular, is always going to kind of come up against that in some way, which I think is a really exciting opportunity. Um, there's an example, I [00:40:00] think, maybe a slide or two. Um, yeah, uh, next one. Yeah, this one here. So this is the LGBTQ plus center in Victoria, Australia. And, yeah, really interesting. So I think it also includes some sort of housing, um, scheme. But it's very much a community's hub. Um, and kind of speaking on materiality or that temporalness of, um, Yeah, the kind of temporalness of queer materiality. They've kind of gone for the opposite. Like they've done this monolithic concrete. Really, I mean [00:40:30] that's fucking permanent, there's no other way for it. Um, so it's really, you kind of see this as like a future direction of like, Okay, if queer space isn't just about occupation, but if you try and articulate it architecturally, What if you use the material that won't budge, like, I mean that's kind of a fortress, but I think that's kind of, It's camp in a way, because it's like, We're not moving and we're not leaving, and this is an example, and It's in your face, it's, you can't really miss it, so I think that's maybe partly a dream of [00:41:00] like, queer spaces. It's just having that sense of permanence, yeah. It's like, we're here and it's actually not gonna change. And, yeah. Specialize it. Um, I suppose last time when we did discuss this, the kind of joke was with William that like, why didn't you do that for your thesis if this was your dream? But anyway, that was kind of where I ended up starting the conversation. Um, but again, I'll shift into my academic comfort zone, which is saying that rather than a space, just again that [00:41:30] notion that Queer Space for me is interesting because it's a messy term. And it's kind of within that messiness that you can always ask questions, and sometimes those.. They can be quite hard questions. So, you know, for me, that's kind of, this open endedness of always asking these questions. That's where I'm at, rather than a physical example. I think I would really like something campy. Yeah, um, Yeah, um, I would go with your answer. [00:42:00] Campy, permanent, um, allowing for different groups to exist. You know, and that. Um, and bang on the centre, Wellington. Um, so you can't miss it at all. It'll be absolutely fantastic to have that and just, yeah, where conversations can happen, really, for us to be as gay as possible. Um, could you tell us a bit more about this colourful pyramid? Um, so this is a.. [00:42:30] Yeah, so, actually, Riley will know who this is as well, um, this is Adam Nathaniel Furman's work, um, I was lucky enough to be part of the dissent committee way back in undergrad a few years ago, um, and I was really fortunate to meet Adam through that process, they're a queer designer and, um, yeah, based in London, and their work is really camp, really colourful, um, they've also kind of dealt with the intersection of permanence, a lot of their work is installation based, um, or kind of object based, [00:43:00] But this piece is one of their work. It kind of builds on post modernism. It's like post post modernist. Um, which I'm sure is like, a TERF's like hellhole. But, yeah, it's really cool. And I actually went and saw him when I was in London and his office is as colourful as this and as crazy as this and he has this gorgeous dog. And, yeah, fantastic. So I recommend following him because he's political and architectural and colourful and all those fun things.[00:43:30] We're going to do a bit of rinsing and repeating because we're actually very lucky to have a designer of Quest Faces here tonight, which is you. So, um, we have some of your thesis work and just wondered if you could tell us a bit more about it. So this is, yeah, okay, a couple of years ago now. So this was an installation very early on. This was the testing of materiality. And again, uh, It's kind of based on the understanding of [00:44:00] perception between two people. So how the materiality can blur or distort your understanding of the other person physically. And so if you remove that physical barrier, um, of kind of the visual judgment that you get when you meet someone initially, if that's then disrupted by the material, then how do you perceive that person if it's not through visual means first? This is a photo I took over in, um, Breaker Bay. And yeah, I think this is an interesting topic. Kind of, or like, point to talk about the occupation of [00:44:30] architecture versus the building of architecture, or in particular queer space. And that the notion of being queer, or having queer space is kind of, or like queer space in itself of, and I think Jan's touched on this, is kind of, Challenging because queerness comes through occupation. It's so much about the person of, of where they are, how they behave, how they feel comfortable. So, we're not really designing queer space so much as space where queerness thrives. Um, and I thought this was a really good opportunity to show that because [00:45:00] it's obviously kind of subversive, they've tagged it, it's not really allowed there, but it's not moving again, it's on concrete, so. I don't know, maybe, oh, okay. Oh, this was fun. I liked this one the most. Um, this was the domestic scale. This was looking at how four non related people could cohabit a house in Martinborough. Um, so I used an existing building that got moved, um, from Kelbyn. It was kind of an old, um, an old villa. And then kind of disrupted it in different ways. You can see the bathroom is actually [00:45:30] inside the circulation zone of this space, so. Your public private boundaries with the people that you live with is really disrupted, um, and then the flooring.. As the circulation leads down to the kitchen, so you kind of are constantly hearing and seeing these kind of moments of, of movement through the people you're living with. So how do we challenge our, because I don't know with houses, like bedrooms are so closed off. It's like a door and four walls. So this house was really about challenging how we, how we cohabit and especially in a non traditional kind of family [00:46:00] unit. And this was Cuba street. This is kind of a quick draft render. Oh, so all of these characters. It started off as people that I was studying with, um, as like inspiration, so, yeah, shout out to them. Um, but this is looking at, again, kind of the temporalness of occupation, but then also the permanence of queer space in an urban fabric. So you have things like, yeah, like the kind of sculptural artwork, which is really permanent, but then you have this kind of light material hanging above, so, [00:46:30] yeah, showing the kind of contrast or variation in what queer space can be represented as. This is my outside scope in the area. Cool. Um, so we have our final pātai for the night, and I guess for our audience who will go out and make queer space. But, um, how can our spaces, Peter Manaaki, our queer whānau, what are the things that we can do? Speaking of menakee, my mom has been [00:47:00] calling me from India, so she calls and she gives me a missed call for 20 missed calls before I pick up. I'm like, Mom, I'm going to call you soon. But, um, how can space better menakee a queer fan? I think, um, One is to keep on having conversations as to what safety means for each group. Um, and not be afraid to enter challenging conversations if you don't come from that particular intersection. Um, because at the end of the conversation, it does create liberation. Um, for me personally and for a lot of people that [00:47:30] I've had conversations with. So I'll go with that. Well, I think I've kind of said the same sort of thing, and I keep on coming back to that notion of safe space, so just, you know, reiterating those points. Um, and also to reiterate, but, and just, I think building on that, it's like giving people the voice as well, and it's not just about being listened to, but it's about being heard. And I think those challenging conversations are also the ones where the most amount of growth happens. So I think it's [00:48:00] important and not that we have to put ourselves in these difficult positions, but sometimes when you're trying to educate or converse with people that those kind of grittiness elements are actually really important. And if obviously if we don't feel up to it, then that's totally fine, but I think that's where real growth comes Yeah, just having that having that hard core Cool so that brings us to [00:48:30] The end of the conversation that that we've had we started of course with with Carmen and Um, those who might be familiar, if you walk up Cuba Street, um, Carmen is immortalized within the traffic crossing sign here, you know, um, bright, temporal, but deeply permanent, um, as well. So, thought that was a nice, um, image to end on. But, um, we can now open up the floor to questions. We've got a couple [00:49:00] of minutes, but.. Kia ora guys. Thank you for your whakaaro tonight. Um, I just wanna ask, like, obviously as designers it's really important that we honour Te Tiriti o Waitangi. And so, how can we decolonise queer spaces? Um, I can answer from a private perspective. That's okay. Um, I early mentioned that, um, the first conversation when I [00:49:30] came on board as co chair along with Talia, we definitely acknowledged that we need to honor disability. Because Pride hasn't done that quite well. Um, the one thing we did was, um, like I said before, we co designed this document called Te Whāraki with an organisation, Kōpapa Māori organisation, called Tātou Tātou. And we had indigenous people and, um, um, sorry, Tangata Whenua, Pasifika, uh, other ethnic minorities as well, to [00:50:00] acknowledge what harm has been done. By pride in Wellington in particular and then set Expectations and practice in place to address those issues in order for our rangatahi to Not face those challenges again and on Saturday. We had the first BIPOC Wananga at Pride, um, to continually listen to Tangata Whenua, to, um, other Tau Iwi, um, and [00:50:30] design, and within that, and design, um, Te Whareki again, and holding accountable future, um, Pride boards, that they need to be Te Tiriti centric, and if they're not, then they're The community can hold them accountable by coming to AGMs and calling them out. And because it is important, because people tend to forget. And we don't want to be, well personally I do not want to be, when Talia and I step down and someone else comes up. And they're like, oh okay, that's just a tech box conversation. And that will never happen again. [00:51:00] Um, so that's why we needed to vote that in. Um, so that's what we're doing in the Pride Festival. Um, in making queer spaces that are designed. Based on Mataranga Maori, really. Yeah. Um, I have a response to that question from, I guess, like a, um, Takatapui Maori architectural perspective is, of course, in pre colonial times, um, our [00:51:30] Takatapui were tohanga. They were knowledge holders within, um, So I think what I would really like to see and it would be, I think there's a really long timeframe for this, but, um, uh, that our rangatahi are supported to evolve into that and that they can design themselves and that they have their mana motohaki, you know, that may be like takatapui marae, that may be those sorts of things. So, I [00:52:00] think it's a very long way off, but I think, um, the best thing to enable that is, uh, uplifting our rangatahi Māori designers, because they are both brilliant and very, very vulnerable, um, and architecture is not a safe space for them. So, um, yeah, how can you nourish that would be my response. Thanks guys, been great. Just sort of reflecting on Jan's comment about [00:52:30] that example from an airport with, you know, de gendering, um, public toilets, and that sort of lack of labelling queer spaces being just open and then accessible to everybody, um, that's obviously, you know, quite an ideal solution to lots of environments, but doesn't necessarily, um, take the sort of opportunities to celebrate queerness in any way.[00:53:00] So, just interested in any reflections on, on that. And in a similar way, just reading something, um, online recently about a bar in Dunedin, Inch Bar, that for some reason iSight labeled as a queer bar, with no knowledge of theirs. And so they then actively campaigned to have that removed, just because their customers were being.. Targeted, which is obviously a bit of a sad result of something. [00:53:30] Um, I think I'll just pause on the bathroom thing, because there has been work done in this space, so I might just throw it over to the audience and Andrew, because I know Will was working on this as well, but could you speak to a bit of the work that your group has been doing? Just a little plug for the group that, um, well, and a number of us, uh, involved in, um, I guess we, we are working on, um, a bit of a, a bit of a guide to help sort of the why question [00:54:00] as to why we need gender neutral bathrooms. Um, and I suppose there's a few different aspects that we're We're going down or different sort of routes that people can sort of take hold of The content like some of them are really functional and money focused because we know that developers or whoever Some some of those people might just be looking for the money and then others are like, oh [00:54:30] we've got to do this for the ethical, but I guess I'm sure everyone in this room is knows that It's what we should be doing, but it's about getting those other people on board. So, um, we are working on that, slowly, um, but, um, if, if anyone is interested in getting involved, do, do come up to me afterwards, um, yeah, um, I grew up in Dunedin, so [00:55:00] I have some firm words for InSpar, um, yeah, I think it's.. It's interesting when you get a place like Dunedin, because it's, there's a huge young population with the students, so there's obviously a certain area of the city that's really, you know, far forward thinking, but there's still a long way to go in these smaller towns, like we are a little bit in an isolated bubble here in Wellington, and I think we tend to be quite in silo a little bit, and how do we break out of that is still, I mean, I don't really know, I still kind of struggle [00:55:30] going home and being there, but yeah, it's, yeah. It's difficult because I think we're in such a progressive bubble here, and we're making great progress, but there's a, there's an equally large bubble, unfortunately, that still exists, um, that still has a long way to go, and places like Dunedin, and, I mean, everywhere has them, but, yeah, it's just, it's kind of, we're only seeing like a surface level symptom of that, but there's a lot more conversation going on behind closed doors, [00:56:00] um, Yeah, that leads to that decision making, but I mean, for things like bars, we, we make a stance with our money, we make a stance by where we go, so, yeah, there's opportunity there to also make your voice heard if it can't be through talking to them, it's also who you support, so. Um, uh, just a few other shoutouts that I'd like to make, if you're interested in understanding more about The queer urban history of Wellington. Um, uh, get Roger and Gareth who are here tonight. I'm [00:56:30] recording, uh, run tours through walk tours. New Zealand. So if you want to learn a little bit more about Wellington's queer history, there is a lot of it. Um, highly recommend that. But, um, thank you for your time tonight and for coming and listening to this kōrero. Um, if you wouldn't mind putting your hands together for our wonderful panel and their whakaaro.[00:57:00] Um, so, uh, thanks everyone. I'll do a karakia to lead us out, but, um, There, I believe, are refreshments in, um, the lobbies, so please stay, enjoy the, enjoy the kororo, and we're very grateful to have you. Gratitude. Happy to have you all here. Ka whakaria te tapu, ke wai tia ae te ara,[00:57:30] ki a turuki whakataha ae, ki a turuki whakataha ae. Haumi e, hui e, ta ariki e.

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TITLE: Launch of Honouring our Ancestors
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VOICES: Alison Green; Fergus Barrowman; Kurt Komene; Marion Castree; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Alison Green; Brian Tamaki; Fergus Barrowman; Honour Project Aotearoa; Irawhiti Takatāpui; Kahutoi Te Kanawa; Kurt Komene; Kīngitanga; Leonie Pihama; Manawaroa Te Wao; Marion Castree; Shane Jones; Shane Reti; Taranaki Whānui; Te Herenga Waka University Press; Te Ā ti Awa; The Honour Project (Canada); Tīwhanawhana; Unity Books; Winston Peters; takatāpui; waiata; whakawahine
DATE: 25 July 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Unity Books, 57 Willis Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the launch of the book Honouring our Ancestors: Takatāpui, Two-Spirit and Indigenous LGBTQI+ Well-being. The event took place at Unity Books in Wellington on 25 July 2023. The book is edited by Alison Green (Ngāti Awa, Ngāti Ranginui) and Leonie Pihama (Te Ā tiawa, Ngā Māhanga a Tairi, Waikato). More details about the book can be found here. Special thanks to the organisers and participants for allowing the event to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Kia orihi te. Kia ora. O Ka rangatia ki te tai whakarunga te tai whakararo ra. Haere mai. Haere mai. Teammate.[00:00:30] [00:01:00] Haere mai, haere mai, haere mai, haere mai, tipana. Tipana wana e kahutura i [00:01:30] te rangi. Ka runga Poneke i te moana raukawale. He kaupapa, he kaupapa nui. Me ara hake ue nuku.[00:02:00] My I am [00:02:30] my community books. Honoring our ancestors, um, editors called Alison Green [00:03:00] University Press. Good evening, everyone. Um, on behalf of us all at Unity Books, um, it's amazing to see you all here in our place to launch this incredible book, uh, honoring our ancestors. Um, [00:03:30] It's been probably a long time in the making of this book, so I think we will appreciate how much work and passion and aroha has gone into making this book. And it's also very beautiful, thanks to the Hemingway Walker University Press. Um, next we'll be hearing from the, one of the publishers, well, the publisher, um, Fergus Barriman from Te Herenga Kia ora. Applause Kia [00:04:00] ora Marion, lovely to be back. Nga mihi nui kia koutou. It's lovely to see you all here for this launch of Honouring Our Ancestors. Um, I'm Fergus Barriman. I have the great pleasure of being the publisher at Victoria University, Te Herenga Waka University Press. We're getting over that little hill. Um, I'd like to thank the Te Whanau Whanau Trust for starting us off. Thank you, Kevin and crew. It's been very generous of you. Um, I'd like to welcome the editor as well. I can welcome [00:04:30] Alison Green, who's here, but the other editor, uh, Leone Pihama, couldn't be here tonight, sadly. Um, you've done wonderful work in bringing together this really important book, and we thank you for that. I want to thank all of the contributors to the book, uh, those here in Aotearoa and those in Turtle Island, for your passion, for your hard work, and for your patience waiting for the book to come out. Um, it's going to be, I think, a really important book for all of your communities. I want to [00:05:00] thank the master weaver and textile artist, Kahutoi Tekanawa. for her magnificent work on the cover, which I think sort of symbolizes the, I don't know what it symbolizes. It symbolizes the passion of the work and the bringing together of this world and the spirit world. I'd also like to mention Jasmin Sargent, editor at. Te Hiringa Walker, um, who's multi talented, and she actually did some [00:05:30] of the finished art to bring this, um, beautiful artwork into sharp focus. And while I'm doing that, I would mention Ashley Young, our managing editor, who with Kylie Hodgson, uh, guided this book. through to publication. One of the contributors to this book, uh, Manawaroa Te Wao, um, sadly passed away recently, um, and she's greatly missed, but we're pleased that her sister, uh, Rukuruku, [00:06:00] can be here for her tonight. Uh, and finally, um, I'd like to thank you all for coming along and pass you back to Te Whanau Whanau, uh, for the next stage of the ceremony. Kia ora tatou. Tēnā tatou, tēnā koutou. Ko Waka Rewika mai rā ki roto i tō tātou piringa. Me ki rā hānei[00:06:30] [00:07:00] [00:07:30] [00:08:00] [00:08:30] [00:09:00] [00:09:30] [00:10:00] [00:10:30] Haere rā, hōri ana, e te aroha e Haere rā koe, e te tuahine He rangatira, wāhine toa[00:11:00] [00:11:30] [00:12:00] Haere rā, mana waro, me aroha e Haere rā, haere rā koe, he te tuahine He rangatira, wāhine toa Mare kura, he kura pounamu e Kia o te[00:12:30] moe Kia o te moe Te Kia o te moe[00:13:00] Ki tō tātou Kingi a Tūawhiti me te Wharekāweriki, Paimari ki a rātou, ki ngā mate pū a piti rangat, [00:13:30] tia haere, mōi mai rā. Tātou te hunga Whānau, I'm so humbled to be here. It's also emotional. Um, losing my sister [00:14:00] just recently. She was a proud and loud lady. Um, she talked me, um, to all the functions. She winked at me. We had a massive, um, National and Patawhata Te Papua Ratu Marae. And I've met so many people through her. [00:14:30] I really, really miss her. Um, it's been hard for all our whanau. Um, but I know she'll say. She would say that. So I'm, I'm going to leave Ari to have, um, Tēnā tātou te whānau. Um, it's a blessing and an honour to be here, uh, for Manoaro.[00:15:00] Yeah, she was a pillar for us, mostly with the Kingitanga and Takatāpui. Yes, it was great. Um, and we're just so honoured to be here to witness the launching of Unwin Our Ancestors. Um, Japan, Canada, USA. And welcome to[00:15:30] Aotearoa. No, Aotearoa. Um, again, um,[00:16:00] Um, thank you everyone for coming together tonight. Um, this cold evening of Maki. Um, to launch our book, um, Matariki, the time for celebrating those who have left us. And the time for welcoming the enormous Māori and indigenous takatāpui and two spirit potential that lies ahead of us all. On behalf of Leonie [00:16:30] Pihama, um, my fellow editor, who's looking after her mokopuna tonight in Pirongia and can't be with us, I thank you, uh, for celebrating this new publication. The publication contains the energies and the aspirations of 28 indigenous authors from across Aotearoa and Turtle Island. Thank you Unity Books for hosting us. I never would have [00:17:00] thought, um, 50 years ago, when I was a young student, uh, that I would ever be here, um, launching a book like this. Uh, thank you to Heringa Waka Press, um, Fergus, Ashley, Craig, Tei, um, our cover artist and friend, uh, recent. Recently honoured Dr. Kahutoi Te Kanua. Um, thank you Dr. [00:17:30] Gillian Tipene, uh, who wrote our mihi and provided our reo Māori expertise and who walked alongside us as an ally. for this book. Um, all together, you were the dream team. Um, but this book would not have happened were it not for our Native American two spirit colleagues from the Honor Project. Um, and I pay special tribute to [00:18:00] Choctaw professor, um, uh, Karina Walters. In 2017, Leonie and I were awarded a large research grant from the Health Research Council of New Zealand. The grant drew its inspiration from the honor project. And from the grant was funded on a Project Aotearoa. The study and the research team and some of you are here tonight. But all [00:18:30] of the team authored or co authored chapters. Thank you to the Health Research Council of New Zealand. Another dream team. Um, as has already been mentioned, we're missing a very important member of our dream team, our kuia for the Honour Project research team. Manaweroa co authored a chapter in the book. She was the subject of a short video. She had Takatāpui friends throughout Aotearoa and [00:19:00] Australia and we were able to draw in those links for the Honour Project Aotearoa. She was a leader. And we miss her dearly. To return to the publication, the book comprises 18 chapters written by 28 authors, all experts in their respective fields. These authors share their perspectives of being Takatapui and Two Spirit, of being queer, of being mokopuna. [00:19:30] Of what it is to be a good ancestor. Of being a transgender woman, mother, sister, grandmother, and a respected elder. Of claiming our Māori and indigenous identities and spaces within our communities. Of living with HIV. Of living with tā moko. Of being American Indian and Alaska Native Two Spirit woman. Of living rich lives in the face [00:20:00] of racism. discrimination, hatred and vitriol, and of Takatapui, Two Spirit and Indigenous LGBTQ resurgence, intergenerational healing, international rights, and Indigenous leadership. We are in difficult times, my friends. Some so called Aotearoa will use anti Takatapui, anti trans, and anti women [00:20:30] messages to win conservative right wing votes in the coming election. Shane Jones, Winston Peters, Shane Reti, Brian Tamaki are the obvious offenders, but there are others. We are all affected by their hatred and vitriol. Our ancestors fought for a better world, for us, and for our mokopuna. So, look out for each other, check in on each other, [00:21:00] care for each other. We want an Aotearoa where everyone, regardless of their gender, sexual orientation, and sexual attraction, is valued and has a role to play. That is our future. Ka nui te mihi. Um, kia korero, kai korero, [00:21:30] um, and ki te manuhiri. It's amazing and an honor to have this on our four walls. Um, and it'll be memorable for all of us. Um, until the next time we meet again. Okay, and hopefully it'll be an amazing situation again. Kia ora rā.[00:22:00] [00:22:30] [00:23:00] No one not talking [00:23:30] one our way.[00:24:00] What.[00:24:30] [00:25:00] .

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TITLE: The Life and Times of Georgina Beyer
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VOICES: Brian Aitken; Catherine Healy; Dale Williams; Georgina Beyer; Grant Pittams; Grant Robertson; Helena Henare-Coolen; Ian McKellen; Jacquie Grant; Karen Morris; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Michael Gibbs; Ramon Maniapoto; Richard Tankersley; Steve Chadwick; Tim Barnett; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; 2020s; Alfies 1; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Australia; Big Gay Out (Auckland); Bloomers Review (Alfies); Brian Aitken; Brian Neeson; Brian Tamaki; Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Carterton; Carterton Daffodil Festival; Carterton District; Catherine Healy; Catholicism; Chanel Hati; Change for the Better: The Story of Georgina Beyer As Told to Cathy Casey (2000, book); Charles Chauvel; Chelsea Manning; Chris Carter; Chrissy Witoko Memorial Trust; Christianity; Civil Union Act (2004); Club Exotic; Club Exotique; Crimes Amendment Bill (1974, Venn Young); Dale Williams; Dana DePaul; David Lange; Days Bay; Destiny Church; Downstage theatre; Foreshore and Seabed Act (2004); Fran Wilde; Gareth Watkins; Georgie Girl (2001); Georgina Beyer; Georgina Beyer Way (street); Georgina Beyer statue (Carterton); Grant Pittams; Grant Robertson; Greymouth; Hannah Playhouse; Hannah Tamaki; Harbour City Funeral Home; Hataitai; Heather Henare-Coolen; Helen Clark; Helena Henare-Coolen; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Homosexual Law Reform Society; Ian McKellen; Irawhiti Takatāpui; Jacquie Grant; John Banks; Jonathan Hunt; Karen Morris; Kevin Haunui; Kieran McAnulty; Kinky Boots (musical); Kola Gin; Kurds; La Cage aux Folles (film); Les Girls (Sydney); Lockwood Smith; Louisa Wall; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Mary Potter Hospice; Maryan Street; Member of Parliament; Michael Gibbs; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; Nanaia Mahuta; Nazi Germany; New Zealand Order of Merit (ONZM); Ngāti Mutunga; Ngāti Porou; Ngāti Raukawa; Nicole Duval; Norman Jones; Office of the Clerk / Parliamentary Service; Our Wāhine - 125 Extraordinary New Zealand Women (book); Oxford Union Society; Paul Henry; Polly Filla; Posie Parker; Poutokomanawa: The Carmen Rupe Generation (exhibition, 2019); Prostitution Reform Act (2003); Rainbow NZ Charitable Trust; Rainbow Room; Rainbow flag; Ramon Maniapoto; Rion McKenzie; Ron Mark; Royal Oak Hotel; Rule Foundation; Scott Kennedy; Sex Worker Exclusionary Radical Feminist (SWERF); Sex Worker Pride Day; Sonja Davies; Staircase nightclub; Steve Chadwick; Sue Bradford; Sue Kedgley; Sydney; Tariana Turia; Te Ā ti Awa; The Adventures of Priscilla; Queen of the Desert (film); The Balcony / Le Balcon; The Court Theatre; The Warehouse; Tim Barnett; Tony Ryall; Tīwhanawhana; Tīwhanawhana Trust; United Nations; United States of America; Venn Young; Vivian Street; Wairarapa; Wellesley College; Wellington; activism; addiction; attempted suicide; church; civil unions; computers; crime; dignity; discrimination; email; family; hate; hate crime; heru; homosexual law reform; human rights; inclusion; iwi; kidney disease; kidney transplant; legacy; local government; mayor; musicals; night porter; playwright; police; puberty blockers; purple; rape; reconciliation; red umbrella; rejection; sex work; transgender; transphobia; waiata; whakawahine; whānau; youth
DATE: 18 July 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Embassy Theatre, 10 Kent Terrace, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the memorial event for Georgina Beyer (Te Ā ti Awa, Ngāti Mutunga, Ngāti Raukawa, and Ngāti Porou), held at the Embassy Theatre in Wellington, on Tuesday 18 July 2023. Georgina passed away on 6 March 2023. Special thanks to the organisers and participants for allowing the memorial to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Tēnā tātou. Tēnā tātou i rangi i kaupapa a Georgina. Nō reira nō mai haramai. Welcome everybody. My name is Kevin Honian and I'm here on behalf of Tīwhanawhana Trust to help open this particular [00:00:30] occasion to celebrate Georgina. Nō reira nō mai haramai. Um, before we begin, I just wanted to say that we'll, we will open with a Kara here, um, and then Tana will perform a couple of, uh, items just to get the ball rolling and to welcome you here. Uh, and that will be the, our, our bit until the end of the, the program.[00:01:00] [00:01:30] Koia rā, e rongo, whakairi ake ki runga kia, tēnā, haumi [00:02:00] e hui e, kia ora tātahi. a tātou rangatira kua huri ana e. Ngā mihi mai ohā ki a koutou e. Tēnā rā koutou, tēnā rā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa. Aue, aue, e weire ki tēnei [00:02:30] te putu o te tapu. Kaura rā, ka takata a tai me tūraki atu a takata kiuna.[00:03:00] [00:03:30] [00:04:00] [00:04:30] [00:05:00] [00:05:30] [00:06:00] [00:06:30] te aroha me te mahi tahi. Kua ike nga wangata. Titiro mai ki taku [00:07:00] pōhikere, Ki taku aloha. Kia mau. Kia mau te aroha me te mahi tahi. Kia reke nga wangata, Ki tiro mai ki taku ko, Reinei, Ki taku [00:07:30] aloha! Kia rete! Garete, mau, ki rato Whoo! Tēnā[00:08:00] koutou katoa Good evening, ladies and gentlemen A warm welcome to you all here at the Embassy And, indeed, to this, the Grand Theatre I'm Malcolm Kennedy Vaughan, and it's an honour and a privilege to be your MC for this evening's proceedings. [00:08:30] I'd like to thank Kevin Hanui and Te Whanau Whanau Maori Performing Cultural Group for a very, very welcoming karakia and performance here this evening. Also, a very special welcome To all of our VIP guests down here in the front row. I want to thank you all for your [00:09:00] time and commitment as we celebrate a true icon of our rainbow community not only here in Aotearoa, New Zealand but on the global world stage. I first met George in the mid 1970s on his first arrival in Wellington. George was employed as a night porter at the Royal Oak Hotel in Dixon Street, where I was a waiter in the restaurant, and my flatmate, [00:09:30] Rion McKenzie, was the maitre d We all formed a very close working relationship. Little did we know that we would have an endearing friendship that was to last over 50 years. Georgie soon moved into our flat at number 20 Bullard Street. Life was never the same again. [00:10:00] Rion, after we finished work at the Royal Oak Hotel, was a male stripper and entertainer at the Club Exotic in Vivian Street. And after work, pubs used to close at 10pm in those days, we'd all head home, throw on the drag rags, and we'd hit the bright lights of Vivian Street. I know. Which inevitably always ended up at [00:10:30] the Club Exotic, followed by Carmen's International Coffee Lounge. Georgie was born, Georgina was here. Originally Georgina was employed at the Club Exotic as the Comedy Queen, a title that she absolutely loathed. But it didn't take her long. To make her mark and earn a place in the solo ranks. In 1979, Georgina and [00:11:00] her best friend, Dana DePaul, sought greener grass and made the move to Sydney, Australia. On an evening out on King's Cross, Georgina was pack raped by a group of four men. The Sydney dream was over. And in September the same year, Georgina returned to New Zealand. and the bright lights of Auckland. In October of 1984, [00:11:30] another New Zealand icon, the wonderful and talented Nicole de Valle, launched her all male review, Bloomers, at the Staircase Nightclub on 4th Street in Auckland, of which Georgina was a founding member of the troupe. It wasn't long before they secured a contract, a permanent contract, nightclub in High Street. Dazzling costumes, trick photography, [00:12:00] and, uh, stunning gorgeous queens ensured Alfie's was packed to the roof every weekend. Georgina remained with Bloomers for four and a half years. Then it was time for a change. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the life and times of Georgina Byrne. The world's first openly transgendered mayor and [00:12:30] member of parliament. A trailblazer. A woman who fought for the marginalized. A strong supporter. of prostitution law reform to decriminalize workers in the sex industry. And a strong supporter of same sex, uh, same sex civil unions and marriage equality. Join us as we take you on a journey. [00:13:00] of Georgina's life. We're going to see a short video now from the 1970s and the 1980s. It is now my pleasure to invite our first guest speaker to the lectern tonight to reflect on Georgina from that era. She's been a member of the Greymouth District Council for six years, a member of the Human [00:13:30] Rights Review Tribunal for nine years, a member of the New Zealand Order of Merit Until it was superseded by her next award as an officer of the New Zealand Order of Merit. Could you please welcome to the stage the tranny granny herself, the fabulous Jackie Grant.[00:14:00] Kia ora everybody. I must say it's just so wonderful to see so many people here to celebrate one of the icons. And we don't have that many icons in our community so, you know, good for you all to be here. It's an honour and a privilege to be speaking. When Malcolm rang me and asked me to speak, I thought, Oh God, where the bloody hell does one start? [00:14:30] How does one speak about a great orator and do her justice? That force of nature that was and still is Georgina Byer. When I sat down and started to write a speech. Because unlike Georgina, I, I can't speak for two hours without taking breath and no notes. Um, she could, but I can't. But it started me thinking, I'm on my 80th trip around the sun, and my friends [00:15:00] might say I'm just about approaching my second childhood. So how on earth will I want to say about Georgina? Then I had a light bulb moment. I went to the warehouse and bought some puberty blockers thanks to Brian Tamaki. So, thanks for that recommendation Brian. Um, I'm sure you made the warehouse a lot of profit. [00:15:30] I'm sure Georgina would want me to acknowledge a long line of rainbow pioneer politicians who preceded her and helped pave the way for hers and future generations to take up the mantle. Brave people who put their necks on the line for the betterment of our rainbow community. And they weren't all rainbow people either. It is fitting that we, and extremely [00:16:00] important, that we acknowledge those people while celebrating Georgina's own unique achievements. People like Ven Young in 1974, who was not successful with Law Reform. However, the train had left the station. And success, although some years away, was inevitable. The activists like the Homosexual Law Reform Society, who for many years debated the issue, and built up [00:16:30] support for a law change against the rhetoric of some of the vilest people that were on the political scene at that time. And people like Norman Jones spring to my mind. Vile, vile, bloody man. Fran Wild was successful in 1986. And not long after that, we had our wonderful Chris Carter. First openly gay out MP. [00:17:00] Charles Chevelle. And then of course, the king of New Zealand gay royalty, Tim Barnett. Followed by so many others. Then came New Zealand's first transgender MP, Georgina Beyer, who launched her career with a memorable speech about stallions. As I [00:17:30] said earlier, this is my 80th trip around the sun. So for my generation, this was all incredible stuff a lot of us thought we would never see. Thinking back to a time when if you gave your boyfriend a blowjob, you could be jailed for 8 years. A sentence that could be increased to 16 years if the said boyfriend screwed you. And that was not the worst of it. There were murders, bashings, police brutality, [00:18:00] and even worse for many of us was the rejection from families. Something our Georgina knew only too well. Nicole Duvel related to me recently how Georgina struggled with that rejection, how she reached out to her family in Wellington, the countless visits to her father's office in Wellington, and his refusal to even talk to her. She wasn't on her own there. The psychological effect [00:18:30] on so many was and still is something that is too hard to bear for our community. Think about the lost opportunities for our older trans community in education and employment. I knew a trans person back in the 1960s, admittedly in Australia, wasn't too different here. She got a job in a fish and chip shop and never told the employer she was trans. A customer sprung her to the [00:19:00] boss, who then rang the police. She was given three months in prison for doing, you know, wanting a job. You get three months in jail because she was in drag. I know for our rainbow community today, it is hard to imagine all this in today's world, but it is something I'm sure, or I know, Georgina understood. And I'm equally sure examples like these help shape her political path. And [00:19:30] you heard Mel talk about the rape in Australia and, and, you know, it's a pretty hard road to, to hoe sometimes. I'm also Georgina New. What we have gained during that hard battle can easily be taken away. She knew the value of sensible, rational debate from the inside. Carried far more weight than throwing juice at a nobody in a park in Auckland. [00:20:00] It is sad to see our Rainbow MPs falling by the wayside lately. Something in my mind that doesn't bode well. But anyway, I first heard about Georgina in the early 80s. When she burst on the scene with her acting roles, and I'm sure, like many other people, did. And participation in different shows, like Carmen's Balcony and Alfie's. And I thought then, this is a queen to watch. She is going [00:20:30] places. And how right I was. In 1989, Georgina's and my paths first crossed. When we both delved into local body politics. We both stood in by elections for our local councils, Georgina and Carterton, and myself and Greymouth. We both won. Next local body elections, we both stood for the mayoralty. [00:21:00] That bloody bitch won and I lost by a hundred votes. But I did get to stay on the council. Georgina had made history. The first transgender mayor, and in a rural, conservative community. It was around that time, I was in the North Island on my way to Napier. So I swung by Carterdon, called into the council building and asked if [00:21:30] Georgina was in. The receptionist said, no she's not in, but she just lives around the road, here's the address, pop in. You know, nothing like the Privacy Act back then. I found her house and Georgina gave me a warm welcome. I distinctly remember saying to her, I can't stay long as I'm on my way to Napier. Anyway, six hours, eight suitcases of newspaper cuttings, photos and videos later, I finally escaped. [00:22:00] I was in awe. She had every picture and every clipping and every video from day one of her various careers. She was an orator with an incredible memory. She could make a speech lasting an hour with no notes. could forget her maiden speech or her performance on Parliament steps during the Destiny Church's little demonstration fiasco, her[00:22:30] speech during the prostitution debate. And most of all, the respect she received from the YRAPA community who put her on the map politically. Our Georgina was human, she wasn't perfect, and she had quirks. More than a few, actually. Some that can never be mentioned outside of the sisterhood. One I can talk about, though, is told to me by Nicole Duval the other day.[00:23:00] Georgie had gone up to Auckland for a big gay out. By the end of the day, a little more, more than a little under the weather, she arrived at Nicole's house burbling on how she'd bought some brown biscuits from someone on the roadside, which she produced from her handbag. And being the wonderful hostess that she is, Nicole plated those biscuits, brownies, I mean biscuits, and put them with their cuppa. After their [00:23:30] cup of tea, Georgie announced she had to go out on the town. She couldn't sit still, she had ants in her pants. When she was leaving, she suddenly shot back to the lounge, she got to the door, shot back to the lounge, picked up the biscuit plate, dumped the whole lot in her handbag, and took off. They must have been some very special kind of biscuits. If anyone's got any, my address is Sock World, Hokateka. Anyway, [00:24:00] when Carmen passed away, I had the honour of delivering her eulogy. And at the end, I called for a standing ovation to see the diva on her way. Hopefully that started a tradition. So I think it's fitting we do the same here today for Georgie. So let's be upstanding and give her the ovation she rightly deserves.[00:24:30] [00:25:00] There Georgie, that's one of the biggest claps you've had for a long time. Thank you everybody. Thank you so much. Alba, second speaker this evening is a gentleman who worked closely with Georgina. On an up and coming musical based on her life story. [00:25:30] Could you please welcome actor and playwright, Mr. Brian Aitken. Kia ora tātou. Yes, it's been a sort of little secret for the last three years that I've been working on a musical based on Georgina's life. You may be wondering why senior Pakiha has been writing about a [00:26:00] transgender Māori, but we do have a lot in common in theatre. I'm an actor, director, writer, tutor, and was in Wellington for many years in radio drama in the early days of downstage theatre and then the Court Theatre in Christchurch was formed and I went home and um, helped set up the original company. I was approached to [00:26:30] write this musical a few years ago and created a scenario, a three page scenario because Georgina wanted to sanction it, of course. And so I laid out what I thought was her life from her book, from online interviews, and [00:27:00] so forth, and Created a storyline about a human being who had an incredible journey. We talk about a trailblazer. I think she was more than that.[00:27:30] So I created the scenario with places where songs might be, where some of the major scenes would happen, little bit of dialogue. She loved it. And I started writing. But it seemed rather dry. Her book, A Change for the Better, I thought was straight narrative. And so we started to [00:28:00] talk by telephone, and whenever I came to Christchurch for work, uh, to Wellington for work, I would take her out and we would sit and talk. I needed to understand the human, the person that had suffered. She was rejected by her family, by her iwi, by her adoptive family. And I wanted, I needed [00:28:30] to tell that story. Otherwise it would be a singing documentary. And that, I felt, wasn't good enough. So we talked a lot. I probed. She demurred. I probed more, because the songs needed to be [00:29:00] substantial. If you're writing about someone who was still alive, writing about someone's journey, writing about someone who changed things for people today, it needed to be real. And so, bit by bit, I was able to uncover the human. At the [00:29:30] moment, it's written for three people to play her. The twelve year old boy, the teenager into the twenties, and then the transgender and the public life. What did I want it to be? I wasn't sure. I thought, what don't I want it to be? Okay, this is not [00:30:00] Priscilla Queen of the Desert. This is not La Cage aux Folles. This is not Kinky Boots. It's an ensemble based piece. There's no chorus line. It's a modern piece of musical theater. So I have written the lyrics to 23 [00:30:30] songs composed by Roger Buchanan here, who is the composer. And all the scenes that link into and out of Georgina's story. The very weekend she died, we were in Ashburton of all places, laying down the demonstration tracks to four songs, looking for funding, minister.[00:31:00] So the, she got to read three versions, and when Malcolm and Scott were.. Unloading her large container. They came across to the original scripts. She kept everything.[00:31:30] I have two song lyrics I want to narrate to you today. Um, and one of them is the very moan moment which turned her life around when she was in Sydney and um, was gang raped.[00:32:00] How do you deal with this? How do you put it on the stage in a musical? So I have a split scene. There's lay girls on one half of the stage in a dark alley on the other side. And she's drinking there with the boys and smoking a bit of dope. And things are happy and they discover she's not what they thought she was.[00:32:30] Through choreography these two scenes merge and she's thrown into a, she's gang raped and put on the spit and thrown into a heap like a rag doll. The guys melt from the scene and Georgina's left lying on the ground lips bleeding at the bottom of the lay girl's tableau. A wreck in the middle of theatrical beauty. The scene [00:33:00] behind her fades. How did this happen from a chat and a drink? I'm making good money and working legit. No, I'm discarded like a piece of shit. I'm better than this, you would think. Will I always be on the margins of life? I work long hours, a legitimate job. Why doesn't anything ever go right? I'm better than this. You would think, [00:33:30] is it some form of punishment doled out by men when they discover, feel taken in, I try to be respectable but end up a sperm receptacle, oh why doesn't anything ever go right? Am I naive to think that it might? I'm doing my best, I don't ask for strife, will I always be on the margins of life? I only ever [00:34:00] sought acceptance, only ever wanted to be understood, accepted by my family. Not shunned, despised, rejected. Now, I've hit rock bottom, I'm totally at sea. The end of all I've known, who I'm trying to be. Keep seeking consolation from others like me. But no one has the answers to this confusion. Oh, please, when you've hit rock bottom, [00:34:30] is it time to give up? And I've hit rock bottom, I've bloody had enough. This won't become my lifestyle. I'll make a change for good, become a whole person, embrace my womanhood. I'll build my life anew. This life I've led is over. Back home I will start afresh. No more the restless rover. A real job, a real woman, real people in my life. I want my life to [00:35:00] count for something. People seem to be my thing. To hell with all this shameless bling. I'll show the world I'm not a thing. I'm a human and worth everything this damn world has to offer. I only ever sought compassion. Only wanted to be seen as me. Accepted. Loved. By my family.[00:35:30] We were talking about the lack of love in her life. We were sitting down here, and I asked her about that in an early draft, someone said to me, Brian, it's a musical, there's no love songs, and I said, [00:36:00] no, that's the tragedy. And when she was elected Mayor of Carterton, there was a street scene, and there's a photo of her with the bone comb in her hair, the Heru. Which was given to her by a young Maori carver. He stopped her in the street and gave it to her and said, I work with my [00:36:30] hands, you work with your heart. And she placed it in her hair. She looks up, she had a great rapport with her, Nenan. And she says, is this what you meant, Nenan, all those years ago? Be who you were meant to be. Well, I've [00:37:00] become the woman I finally knew I should be. But will there ever be that special someone to share it all with? And she sings. Is this the price of simply being me? Is this the cost of living comfortably? I beat the odds. They said I'd never win. But now I feel so right at home in my skin. I'm someone I [00:37:30] never thought I'd be. But I see couples walking hand in hand, gazing at the stars, toes in the sand. In silence they say nothing. Their eyes reflect their loving. And in each other's hearts they share their love. That's simply not for me. Will I ever know what love can feel like? Ever know what love can mean? I've always [00:38:00] felt the answers inside me More than a vessel I can be Someone, somewhere, please Find me Lovers there have been But only just a few Guys have come and gone But that's nothing new Never got much love Affection I can't show And when it comes my way I never seem to know Will I live [00:38:30] there never knowing? You. I talked to her about that. And she said, Brian, I have been hurt so much in my life. I got to the stage where I emotionally shut down so no one could ever hurt me again. What an indictment for a human being to live [00:39:00] their life by. Finally, her words. When she's running for the wire wrapper seat. Challenge your democracy, be brave, make things better. Be leaders of this world of ours, as friends, not safe and bitter. Stare your detractors in their eyes, [00:39:30] have the courage to stand up and say what you believe in. If you earn your keep and pay full taxes, then when you're on the line, it's what happens here and here. Humanity should define. Thank you. Thank you, Brian. I think it's that [00:40:00] time. What would a show be without a show number? The performances this evening have been selected. From Georgina's vast repertoire that she has performed herself. Could you please welcome to the stage, the hometown girl, Dungood. Now a resident in Melbourne, Australia. Could you please welcome, the fabulous, Polly Filler. Wow, [00:40:30] come on, fantastic, Polly Filler. Wow, I think we're gonna see, uh, Polly a little bit later on this evening in the show. But right [00:41:00] now it's time to talk about politics. In the early 1990s, seeking a breakaway, a breakaway from the hustle of Bright City Lights, Georgina moved to Carson and the wire wrapper where she became involved in a little bit of a local community members doing arts and performance. This eventually led to her being a counselor on the Carter District Council. for a number of years. Towards the end of [00:41:30] 1994, it was suggested that she ran for the mayoralty of Carterton. And in 1995, she was duly elected as the mayor. We were due to have his worship, the mayor, um, Ron Mark from Carterton. Unfortunately, due to family illness, Ron cannot make it. But we do have the Deputy Mayor of [00:42:00] Carterton. Could you please welcome to the stage, Dale Williams. Kia ora mai tatou. Koutou ko ingoa, Dale Williams. Uh, tumuaki tua rua o konehera Taratahi. My name's Dale Williams. I'm the Deputy Mayor of Carterton District Council and I [00:42:30] really want to.. Uh, send a really sincere apology from His Worship, the Mayor, the Honorable Ron Mark. He's devastated he couldn't be here tonight. He, uh, goes back a long way with Georgina and he shared a lot of stories and information, uh, about Georgie that he asked me to pass on some, those that I could, uh, to you here tonight. I, um, [00:43:00] I first got elected to a council back in 1995, last century, and, uh, you couldn't possibly have come into the local government family without knowing. All about Georgina Byer, and about who she was, and what she stood for, and the type of person that she was. And you could just tell that she was destined for remarkable things.[00:43:30] As a mayor of Carterton District from 95 to 2000, I just, interesting watching the, uh, the video clip, and Mr. Paul Henry, well, I think he was expecting to have romped into that seat at the time, but, uh, I can tell you, Georgie smashed him. And, uh, and it wasn't about the issues that he was talking about, and it was the same when Georgie was elected [00:44:00] to Carterton District. Yes, Carterton is a very conservative, Small rural community, but it's also progressive in a lot of ways. Progressive in that it values integrity, honesty, uh, hard work. And when Georgie got elected, she got elected because she was loved and respected. And capable. Extremely capable. And you know, she could, she could be in a room with [00:44:30] people whether they were, um, old or young, rich or poor. It didn't matter anything about that person other than what the issue was and that they were being cared for and respected by the leader of a community. Which is something that, um, plenty of leaders of communities could take a leaf out of Georgina's book. She certainly created a lot of firsts in Carterton District, as was said before. She was the [00:45:00] first female mayor of Carterton District. She was the first Maori mayor. of Carterton District. And she most certainly was the first transgender mayor of Carterton District. And some of the things that Ron asked me to, to pass on, the things that he admired particularly about Georgina was that she was extremely independent. She lived life on her own [00:45:30] merits and didn't carry favour from anybody or anything. She expected to be taken by the people for the person she was, not for, um, uh, you know, any, any favors or any credit for anything. She was quite conservative, Ron said, which I guess was really useful in a small conservative rural community. But she was an extremely hard worker, and Ron particularly admired her [00:46:00] resilience, her courage, her strength, and particularly her down to earth nature. And as has been said before, there's a lot of legacies around Carterton District that are reflected back to Georgina Byer. One particularly is the Daffodil Festival, which is an annual event. 10th of September, ladies and gentlemen, coming up. Thank you very much. She was a staunch advocate for the Daffodil Festival. Now it may seem a bit twee for some, [00:46:30] uh, but for a community like ours to have an annual event to celebrate the, the wonderfulness. of flowers and of beauty. Um, it really, it really reflected well on Georgina herself. Recently, in a new subdivision in our community, uh, Mayor Ron, uh, unveiled the Georgina by our way. You can see the sign on the stage.[00:47:00] Thank you, and it was a wonderful ceremony, and I really want to acknowledge all the friends and whanau of Georgina who came over the hill to Paradise and helped us, uh, helped us unveil the sign. And, you know, Councillors, we talked about it afterwards and we said, you know what, we anticipate we'll be replacing that sign quite regularly. In fact, we expect it. And Georgina herself, [00:47:30] in knowing that, would laugh. She'd think that was hilarious. Just, finally, uh, uh, you know, Georgina has created a wonderful legacy. Within Carterton district and when I talk to people on the street recently saying I was coming down here and the love and affection and appreciation for Georgina's contribution to our district [00:48:00] stands her in really good stead. The people are, uh, thrilled that she was part of our community and always will be. After the election in 2022. Georgina graced us with her presence at the inauguration ceremony in the swearing in. And my daughter's 12 years old, and she came along to the ceremony, she tapped me on the shoulder at one point and said, Dad, that lady over there, she's in the [00:48:30] book I'm reading. And my daughter got the book, Our Wahine. And was reading, she said, that lady's in the book. And I said, yes, that's Georgina Byer. And she said, do you think I could have a photo, a picture with her? And I said, well, go and ask her. And of course, Georgina, not just a photograph, but she got down and she talked to my daughter about a whole lot of things. And afterwards, my daughter, she was absolutely star truck, struck. She came up to her mum and I and said, I just want to be like that lady. [00:49:00] And I thought, what a wonderful, a wonderful accolade. Because as a father, nothing would make me more proud. Nō reira, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa. Oh, thank you Dale. Fantastic. Very sad that Ron could not be [00:49:30] here this evening. I do want to add though that, um, the Cardigan District Council are going to be making a statue. of Georgina Byer. It'll be, uh, going into War Memorial Square in the centre of Carterton. Watch out for a fundraiser. In 1999, Georgina was approached by Sonia Davies and [00:50:00] the Prime Minister at the time, Helen Clark, to stand for the Labour Party in the Wairarapa electorate. After much to ing and fro ing, Georgina finally accepted the offer, and the rest was history in the making. Georgina was fearless and stood her ground, taking on the best, or in this case, probably the worst. But she always left her mark. Let's go to a little bit of a enough is enough.[00:50:30] I'm happy to stare you in the eye. Why do you hate people like us? Be real Christians. I've known much more. and charity from other people than what I've seen from you deny[00:51:00] law abiding New Zealand citizens who happen to have a difference the same rights as yourselves? How dare you use the cloak of Christianity when you are imparting to your children prejudice, [00:51:30] discrimination toward people like me, gays and lesbians, and other people who live differently, but abide the law and pay their taxes. Why do you do this to us? Um, when the 8000 arrived at Parliament, uh, to protest against civil unions, um, it was a dark day, I feel, and the rest of the country seemed to feel so too. The [00:52:00] imagery they presented that day, um, was, uh, reminiscent of scenes from Nazi Germany, and general public were horrified, frankly. I would defend their right to protest, absolutely, um, but I stood on those steps for the two or three hours that they held their rally in front of parliaments holding the rainbow flag. Joined by other members of Parliament, Sue Bradford, Sue [00:52:30] Kedgley, um, Tim Barnett, Chris Carter, various others came out to support me as I stared them down from the steps of Parliament. Um, at one point, I just lost it. We had 150.. Approximately of our supporters, um, who were pro the Civil Union Bill, and they had been surrounded, uh, by the 8, 000 Destiny Church people, and they were abused, they were jostled, they were [00:53:00] shoved, and I could see all of this happening from the steps. Uh, when they finished their rally, I wanted to immediately run straight down to them. They were all gathered around the seventh statue in front of Parliament. Uh, but such was the abuse that I received that my minder, for want of a better term, Ramon Maniapoto, said, hey, hey, hey, come back behind the barriers, which I did. At that point, I was so angry, I suppose, I marched across the forecourt of Parliament yelling [00:53:30] out loudly, why do you hate us so much? What is this? What is this that you're teaching your children, this hatred towards us? It's not right. And words to that effect. I was yelling, which I seemed like a screaming banshee, because they had a sound system the Rolling Stones would have been proud of. So I was trying to shout over that so that they might hear me. That ended up on the news that night, and many of our rainbow people[00:54:00] around the country Went to hallelujah, our voices there to stare down this great adversity we were facing from these people. One of the proudest moments in my parliamentary life, I have to say, sorry for getting a bit emotional about it, but it was significant. And of course, uh, civil unions came to pass and then [00:54:30] was followed. What, less than ten years later, by Louisa Wall's presentation of marriage equality to the country. And considering the venal debate that happened over civil unions throughout the country, marriage equality managed to slip through, uh, pretty well supported from within the parliament, and more importantly, uh, from a majority of New Zealanders. You see, with patience and perseverance, [00:55:00] The country, by and large, will come on board because they can see all we want is equality. We are of no harm to anyone else. We just want to enrich our own lives with equality. And it has been for the better of New Zealand that we have been able to make positive contributions to our country and to live lives that are far more liberated than when I was young.[00:55:30] Wow. Sure is after a mark. Our next speaker this evening is a gentleman who needs no introduction at all. Could you please welcome to the stage, the Minister of Finance, Mr Grant Robinson.[00:56:00] Kia ora, Tēnā koe Mel. Can we just give a big round of applause for Mel. What a fantastic job he's doing. My first encounter with Georgina was not at Parliament. It was in New York in the early 2000s. I'd like to claim we were an incredible drag act, uh, taking, uh, New York by storm, but it's not true. I was a junior diplomat [00:56:30] representing New Zealand at the United Nations. Despite this day job, I had been a bit involved in the Labour Party at home, and I knew of Georgie. Who didn't know of Georgie. The story has been told a million times, including a little tonight. The journey from the streets and the clubs of Wellington to the TV screens and then to sleepy old Carpenton. And to being the stallion who became the gelding who became a mayor as Georgie delighted in telling everybody. And when she got to Parliament had come full [00:57:00] circle to be a member. It was still one of the greatest lines. Up in New York, we got wind that Georgina was coming through town as the fairly new MP for Wairarapa, and as we knew, the first transgender member of parliament in the world. I remember explaining to an American colleague that it was like a transgender person becoming the senator for Nebraska. They said to me that that would never happen, [00:57:30] and I said, you've never met Georgina. I don't remember a lot about that visit 20 or so years ago. I do remember Georgie being a little bit awestruck by her surroundings. But in every meeting, in every engagement we had, she was on. Calm, resolute, clear. It wasn't anything other than for me to see that as enormously brave. But she didn't actually [00:58:00] like that label at the time. She wanted to be judged and valued for the work that she did. But I know the massive effort that went into ignoring the stares and the derogatory remarks and to rising above and to being authentic. It was impressive. A star was born, although that had happened many years before. Back in New Zealand, Georgie got into the work of being an MP, and there are others here tonight who were MPs with her who can give you a much [00:58:30] better idea of how she went about that work. But I was a staff member in Parliament by that stage, and there were a couple of moments for me that I want to share with you. The first of those is the day that Brian Tamaki and his mob came to town for the Enough is Enough rally to protest against the satanic scourge of civil union. Georgina, as you saw, her blood boiled. This was outright bigotry. It is actually [00:59:00] hard to describe to those who weren't there exactly what that day felt like. Thousands of mostly men, largely dressed identically in black t shirts and black trousers, marching down Lampton Quay, their fists angrily punching the air, shouting that enough is enough. It wasn't exactly clear what was enough, but it was clear who the target of the march was, as Georgie said. Every one of us in the rainbow community. It was incredibly scary and confronting, [00:59:30] and as you saw and heard, Georgie was enraged. She was enraged, she told me, partly at the large number of Māori in the crowd and those purporting to be Christians. There was a smallish counter protest, and as well as the group she described standing on the steps of Parliament. I was with her and we were clutching the rainbow flag. We were frightened and upset. Georgie was fucked off. After a period of time, as [01:00:00] you heard, she said, I'm going down there and I'm going to look them in the eye. And she just set off, at pace, towards the front of the band crowd. I didn't realise, Ramon, you were the minder. Terrible job at that point. We didn't know what to do. I remember thinking she might get killed. I really mean that. We hurtled off after her, no doubt in a very butch manner, clutching our flag. I was close enough to hear Georgie berate the crowd asking, as you heard, how they could call themselves Christians [01:00:30] with their acts and words of bigotry and hatred. She walked along the front of the line and did exactly what she said she would do. She looked them each in the eye. It was thrilling, frightening, and courageous all at once, and it made a difference. The images that appeared on TV that night of Georgina, as she said, were an enormous boost to the campaign for civil union. The Tarmacky process had the effect of turning out votes in our favour. Tim Barnett gave those [01:01:00] of us in the campaign jobs to lobby MPs. I had two on my list, one of who was meant to be here tonight, who turned their votes. Based on what they saw that day. I've always said Brian Tamaki gave us civil unions. I also say, in all seriousness, that Georgie did too. Her bravery, her courage, her sense of right and wrong, and fairness and justice.[01:01:30] The second moment I want to talk about is prostitution reform. And there are others who will be able to tell you much more about this from the front line. But as someone who worked alongside.. Georgie and this campaign. Georgie was responsible for the most electric moment I have experienced in Parliament, either as a staff member or in the 15 years I have been an MP. I make a joke when I'm asked by school kids what I wanted to be when I [01:02:00] was their age. I say that I wanted to be an actor or a lawyer, and now I get to be both. The business of being an MP, advocating for your constituents, debating policy, working on legislation, that was bread and butter for Georgina. And she was good at it. For someone who left school at 16, I watched her debate details and issues with skill and depth. She definitely got bored sometimes, no doubt. But she held her own. In the performance side of [01:02:30] politics, I got the sense that she fought herself sometimes. She stated in later years that the debating side of politics ground her down. And I can understand that, but by God she was good at it. The zenith of which was the Prostitution Law Reform Bill. Georgina has talked about her ambivalence about the legislation in a wonderful interview she did with Gareth Watkins. And she did waver in her support at various stages. But by the time of the final reading, she was well and [01:03:00] truly on board. The vote on prostitution law reform was always going to be tight. We didn't know where a number of MPs were going to land. And Georgie was asked by Tim, if I recall, to speak in a five minute call in the final reading of the bill. There was no time for preparation. I vividly remember being in the debating chamber watching along. Georgie's speech was a virtuoso moment. It was pure instinct and heart. It was [01:03:30] angry and it was beautiful. It was born of painful personal experience and deep love for those she knew from the streets and bars. It was the best performance I have ever seen in Parliament. And it changed the course of history. Along with a couple of other speeches that night and Tim's extraordinary hard work, the bill passed by one [01:04:00] vote with one abstention. It would not be right to talk, to finish talking about Georgina's time in Parliament. without mentioning the foreshore and seabed debate. There is not time to go into all of the details, but it was no doubt a turning point for her in her time in politics. It caused her to reflect on her own whakapapa and again to consider what was right and wrong. And, on reflection, her deep sense of that was almost certainly right, [01:04:30] even if it was to mention tonight, I thought long and hard about whether to raise. But I think it says something important about Georgie. In 2013, I was running to be the leader of the Labour Party. For some reason or another, Georgie was asked to comment on the contest. And she said something to the effect of, New Zealand's not ready for a gay Prime Minister. Headlines followed, and I was furious. [01:05:00] I rang her up, and I asked her what on earth was going on. She was sorry that I was upset. But she said, I'm not wrong, am I? And actually, at the time, she was probably telling the uncomfortable and unfortunate truth. Honest, not always diplomatic or strategic, straight from the heart, our Georgina. Now,[01:05:30] now there is a postscript to that story. In recent years, Georgina would come into Parliament for a kapa on a fairly regular basis. Things were tough for her, we all knew that. And I made sure to always say hello and chat for as long as I could. And one day, out of nowhere, as I got up to leave, she grabbed me by the arm, and she said, I'm sorry I said that, about New Zealand not being ready for a gay PM. And there were tears in her eyes, [01:06:00] and tears in mine. And I said, you're probably right. And she said, of course I was, darling. Thank you, Georgie, for being direct. Honest and authentic. For your service to your community. For being a history maker. For changing my world and the rest of the rainbow communities. For being a brave, instinctive politician. For being your authentic, sometimes [01:06:30] frustrating and infuriating self. And for being funny, bold and fearless. I am proud to have known you. Moi mai, moi mai, moi mai rā. May you rest in peace. Wow. Thank you Grant. Fantastic. [01:07:00] Unfortunately, uh, former Member of Parliament Chris Carter cannot join us this evening and sends his apologies as he is currently in England. Chris kindly wrote a message for tonight's memorial service and his former Parliamentary Advisor Michael Gibbs has agreed to read it on his behalf. Could you please welcome Michael Gibbs. Pou mare kia koutou. [01:07:30] Ko Michael Gibbs tōku angawa. On a personal note, I knew Georgina Byer very well from the first time she ran for Parliament in 1999. And as a Rainbow Labour activist and as an MP when I worked in Minister's offices during the Clark Government. And she was a very active local MP. It's an honour for me to share Chris's tribute this evening. This is what Chris had to say, or has to say. I'm sorry that I can't be here this evening to pay tribute to my old friend and colleague, Georgina Beyer. I would [01:08:00] like to thank all of you who've organised this event, and share some memories of my remarkable friend and colleague. I first met Georgina when she was Mayor of Carterton, and was considering running as the Labour Party candidate for the National Health Seat. We hit it off instantly. I was entranced with her from that very first meeting at the 1998 Labour Party conference. She was outrageous, irreverent, quite naughty, and [01:08:30] larger than life. No one could spin a yarn like Georgina, and these stories were always entertaining and often very salacious. We formed a firm friendship that lasted through all the ups and downs of our respective political and personal lives. I've always suspected that some in the Labour caucus and in the media didn't grasp the importance and uniqueness of Georgina. Not only was she the world's first transgender person ever elected as a mayor, and in Carterton of all places, [01:09:00] but she was open over her former life as a sex worker and reformed addict. Not exactly the best CV for an aspiring and ultimately victorious candidate for the New Zealand Parliament. In 1999, Wairarapa was a national health seat and had a very large rural component. Not exactly positive, uh, not exactly promising Labour territory. TVNZ did a profile of the electorate just before the election. The broadcaster Paul Henry, then young, and with model good looks, Chris didn't [01:09:30] always have the best taste, contested the seat for National. Watching the program with my partner Peter, one segment stood out. An older dairy farmer profiled, was profiled working in his milking shed, and he was asked who he was going to vote for. His response was telling. I'm voting for Georgina Byer, she's a great bloke. Laughter Applause Paul Henry came on immediately after that segment and true to form indulged in a bit of [01:10:00] transphobic uh, rhetoric. I was born a male and I'm still a male. I'm still proud to be male. It was mean and awkward. Peter turned to me and said, Paul Henry's just blown his chances. And he was right. Georgina won the seat by 3, 033 votes. And three years later, increased her majority to 6, 372. I have so many memories of Georgina tucked away in my head. Here [01:10:30] are just a few that may give a glimpse of Georgina's courage, tenacity, and her global impact as an MP. First, one of my warmest memories of my dear friend. In 2002, I was elevated to the cabinet. One of my portfolios was ethnic affairs. I'd been in the job for just a few days. It was a Friday evening and I was about to head over to the North Shore of Auckland to attend my very first ethnic function as a new minister. The ministerial car had arrived and then suddenly a taxi turned up in our small T82 cul de [01:11:00] sac and Georgina emerged. In typical Georgina style, she'd forgotten to tell me she was coming to stay and she'd simply arrived. I told her I was heading out to an ethnic event with the Kurdish community, but she could make herself at home until I got back. She responded that she'd never met a Kurd and asked if she could accompany me. How could I say no? The bemused ministerial driver delivered us to the venue, and a flurry of Kurdish men descended. Georgina towered above them, bejewelled and glittering. I introduced her [01:11:30] as the Labour MP for the Wairarapa, but this was somehow meaningless to our hosts, or they were simply overwhelmed by her. She was introduced as Mrs. Carter. And all the.. All night, the men kept telling me how beautiful my wife was. Georgina dined down on it for months. Georgina's success in life had a powerful message for all people, especially youth. When I served as New [01:12:00] Zealand's Minister of Education, I sometimes used Georgina's life experience as an example for senior students. I didn't do that to focus on trans issues, but rather I emphasised the powerful messaging Georgina's life had for students about those facing barriers in life and how to overcome them. Georgina overcame discrimination and obstacles all her life. She highlighted how it's possible for a young person struggling with a diverse sexuality rejected by her family, caught up in prostitution [01:12:30] and addiction, raped. But still able to overcome all that and become a globally recognised politician. That's a pretty powerful and relevant message for anyone, and a strong message of hope for youngsters everywhere. Georgina had guts. When the civil, when the Destiny Church organised a huge march on Parliament, as we've heard about this evening, uh, she strode out of the building and personally confronted Brian Tamaki and some of his rabid henchmen. It was a fiery scene. She [01:13:00] challenged, sometimes not very politely, some Labour caucus members who were hostile to both the civil union prostitution reform legislation. No one was ever in doubt about Georgina's views on any issues. Georgina could be very naughty. I don't think the Parliament had ever had quite as colourful a character as her when she entered Parliament in 1999. Her presence was not universally welcomed. [01:13:30] Soon after she was elected she confronted MP Brian Neeson. A Religious Fundamentalist National MP, then representing the seat of Hellensville. Neeson, who once told me he'd left the Catholic Church because it was too liberal, seemed appalled by Georgina. He gave her hostile stares and bad vibes whenever their paths crossed. In a corridor in Parliament one day, Georgina stopped and called out to him, Brian, pull that arse, girl. Neeson blanched.[01:14:00] fled the scene and avoided her from then on. On another occasion, Georgina, stimulated by the high pitched voice and rather camp gestures of a certain ex MP from the Bay of Plenty, shrieked, Get you, girl! when the member was asking a question in the chamber. Speaker Jonathan Hunt, then presiding over question time, was simply at loss for words. Interestingly, no National MP at the time rose to take a point of order in [01:14:30] defence of their bay of plenty colleague. Lockwood Smith was also a frequent target of Georgina's humour in the House. Georgina became an international identity. The fifth Labour government led by Helen Clark was a very progressive and legislatively active government. Many major policy initiatives were elected, were enacted from social and human rights issues such as civil unions, prostitution reform, to major economic packages like the New Zealand Superannuation [01:15:00] Fund, KiwiBank, KiwiSaver and so on. Georgina's presence in the government was important to Helen Clark. Helen, like many of us in the Labour caucus, felt that Georgina's presence in our parliament sent a powerful message about inclusiveness. To the whole country and society. To show this to the world was something Georgina came to love. In 2003, Georgina was sent to London to take part in the Commonwealth [01:15:30] Studies Programme. This is an event organised by the British Parliament and hosts MPs from a range of Commonwealth countries. On day one of the programme, each of the Commonwealth participants is required to do a personal introduction. Well, those of us who knew Georgina well knew she knew nothing better, loved nothing better than being on stage and telling her own story. On that day, MPs from places such as Kenya, Jamaica, Malaysia, Uganda and Ghana heard about her family's rejection of her based on [01:16:00] her sexuality and gender identity. Her period as a sex worker and as an addict. I'm confident they were totally overwhelmed. I'm not suggesting that she changed many attitudes that day. But she did show that it's possible for a transgender person to become a member of a national parliament. Something most of them could never have imagined before they'd heard Georgina's presentation. For years afterwards, MPs from Commonwealth countries would approach me when I was representing New Zealand as a government minister and ask me about Georgina.[01:16:30] I can truthfully say that globally, the two most well known New Zealand politicians between 1999 and 2008 were undoubtedly Helen Clark and Georgina Byer. That's no mean achievement for a kid from Haitaitai thrown out of home for cross dressing as a young teen who turned to prostitution to survive. My friend, you were a remarkable person and I miss you already. Rest in peace, Chris[01:17:00] Carter. Ladies and gentlemen, Michael Gibb. Thank you, Michael. In 2003, the Prostitution Law Reform Bill was before Parliament to discriminate the rights of those working in the sex industry. Having been in the industry herself, it was the passion of Georgina's to support the bill, and she was very instrumental in getting the numbers needed to get the bill.[01:17:30] across the line, which it duly did. I would like to now invite to the stage Dame Catherine Healy from the New Zealand Prostitutes Collective to share her memories of that crucial time. Kia ora. Kia [01:18:00] ora kato katoa. Gosh, these are such hard acts to follow and it's like everything's Georgina's whanau. And I want to acknowledge the rainbow whanau and the sex worker whanau. So many whanau here tonight. Fantastic. And of special significance to [01:18:30] me, I met some of Georgina's blood whanau tonight who are here. And I want to acknowledge you because.. We have a relationship, um, my sister in law is related, and I found this out tonight. So, it seems like, it seems like reconciliation, which is something I think that Georgina is probably planting from somewhere.[01:19:00] Georgina loathed sex work. She said she hated every minute of it. She worked in an era when sex work wasn't regarded as such, and sex workers were heavily judged, arrested, and generally mistreated, without real recourse for justice. She was also unable to keep her sex work hidden, [01:19:30] which many sex workers understandably do to avoid judgment. Discrimination and stigma, not Georgina. She owned it and stared down the stigma associated with it. Inspiring. So I admired her ability to come on board the decriminalization movement. Often when you dislike something you want to see it got rid of. She could have gone in the opposite direction. [01:20:00] And become a fundamentalist, abolitionist, they exist. Fortunately for us, she chose otherwise, but it wasn't all plain sailing. And we've heard a little bit about that. Around the time when the decriminalization of prostitution was being debated in parliament. There was a lot of lobbying. In particular, there was a lot of concern. And it [01:20:30] wasn't just an issue for New Zealand, for Aotearoa. It concerned radical feminists. It concerned fundamentalist Christians. It concerned a lot of people who aren't on the side of sex workers. So, what happened was an American academic turned up and lobbied Georgina. And as Georgina later reflected, she said, I didn't know all that highfalutin radical [01:21:00] feminist politics theories. I have lived experience, or words to that effect. So we heard.. a quiet rumor that Georgina was going to vote against the bill and we were lucky it was just us and those in the inner circles who heard the rumor. It didn't leak out to the media, but it was a worrying time. So we had to find some old mates of hers to counter [01:21:30] this other academic who'd come in from the America. So we found. A Canadian who went and talked to Georgina and turned her back to support the Prostitution Reform Act. Witness the magic of that powerful speech in Parliament on the eve when the bill was voted in. Where she spoke so passionately and Grant mentioned how bone chilling that moment was. [01:22:00] I'm sure many of you have seen it replayed on television. But we also had a lot of downtime together. We had a lot of lovely moments and I just want to say when Georgina recently was invited to go and speak to the Oxford Union, we talked quietly about that. David Lange, as you may recall, you're all too young I think, um, but you may recall David Lange was invited to speak in a debate and [01:22:30] Um, I think about 25 years later, I was invited, and then somebody else, and then Georgina. And she said, I said, Georgina, what are you going to do? Are you going to debate or, you know, speak? What are you going, because they give you a choice. You can choose a debate or you can choose to speak. And she said, my life is not up for debate. On the [01:23:00] International Day to Celebrate Sex Worker Pride, those of us from NZPC decided it would be the perfect occasion to launch the day. It was a special day, a new international day for sex workers. By honouring Georgina and taking her out to lunch, we chose a restaurant across the harbour and as we chugged on the ferry, the East West Ferry, into the wharf at Days Bay, Georgina could see her old school, the rather [01:23:30] posh Wellesley College. She told a story with relish about catching up with old classmates at a school reunion. It had, in her time, been a boys school. Some of the content, like the sea, was a little blue. I can hear her laughter. Once again, there was a sense she was never afraid to call it out. And I'm just going to [01:24:00] reflect on a couple of comments that came to today from colleagues at NZ PC when she Fraser from NZ PC drove her home that night. She reflected that she lived too close for my liking. I could have driven her to Auckland and back. She was so warm and engaging. Fierce and formidable. Sherita continues un marveled at her incredible political now. [01:24:30] Her wisdom and implicit understanding of human nature. No surprise, she was a sex worker. Georgina was generous with her time and rich with her spirit. And Chanel, who also works, Chanel Hardy, who also works and performs with Te Whanau Whanau and works with NZPC, shares her reflections on Georgina. She says, she had a fire that burned [01:25:00] brighter than any other, and a presence that was impossible to ignore. Chanel remembers Georgie's quote from the Po Tukumanua exhibition. At this time, Georgina said, I stand on the shoulders of those who went before me. Now people stand on the shoulders. of people like me. It's not just our sex worker community in Aotearoa that will remember [01:25:30] her, but many other communities of sex workers around the world who were inspired by her life. We were sometimes asked to facilitate And invitations from these groups to her, we sort of became de facto secretaries for Georgia. And we'd weigh up the invitations. And, um, anyway. Her powerful endorsements of our rights based movement will resonate for years to come, in communities far and wide. [01:26:00] And tonight, I'm here with my NZPC whanau, whom I asked to join me in twirling a red umbrella, the symbol of International Sex Worker Rights, in honor of Georgie.[01:26:30] Can I just say, we were Te Whanau Whanau friends aren't here, so I'm just going to start it, and everyone can join Te Aroha. Te Aroha[01:27:00] [01:27:30] Uh, thank you dime Catherine. As mentioned earlier, Georgina had a vast repertoire of music she loved to perform. Here tonight, to perform one of those numbers, is a drag superstar. An icon. An international performer. Could you please welcome from Auckland, [01:28:00] The one, and the only, Miss Kola Jinn. Ladies and gentlemen, the sensational Kola Jinn! Thank you so much, Kola. The Oxford Union has a [01:28:30] tradition of hosting some of the world's most prominent individuals across politics, academia, and popular culture. Ranging from Albert Einstein, Michael Jackson, Sir Winston Churchill, Ronald Reagan and Queen Elizabeth the second. In 2018, Georgina Byer joined the ranks of her famous predecessors with an invitation to speak at the Oxford Union. Along with her personal assistant [01:29:00] Julian Cook, Georgina set off to London on another groundbreaking moment in her life. While in London, Georgina had the pleasure of being hosted by Sir Ian McKellen at his residence. We now have a short clip from the wizard Gandalf himself, Sir Ian McKellen. Hello, it's Ian McKellen. I wish I were with you, uh, but I'm not. I'm in London at home, [01:29:30] uh, where Georgina visited me, uh, not that long ago. I just wanted to let you know, in case you didn't, that beyond the shores of New Zealand, Georgina was your representative. Of, All that is very best about New Zealand politics and, and social attitudes. And as your ambassador, uh, she was [01:30:00] close to all our hearts. Simple as that, really. I was very lucky to know her a little, uh, and, uh, smile whenever her name is mentioned. Have a great day. Bye bye. Thank you, Serene. In 2013, Georgina will receive some debilitating news. [01:30:30] She is diagnosed with a kidney disease. Her only option to extend her life was a kidney transplant. A close friend and ally of Georgie's put his hands up and donated one of his kidneys to Georgina. This selfless act was to extend Georgina's life by several more years. Could you please welcome to the podium, the man that made all this possible, Mr. Grant Pidhams.[01:31:00] Thank you for that. Um, and Mel, thanks for that introduction. Um, I guess I played a bit part in Georgie's amazing life. [01:31:30] Um, but certainly near the end, that was quite an important part. You know, and I guess the cliche is that when Georgie moved on, part of me did as well. Georgie, are you still looking after that? She had better be. But okay, why do you do that? Why, you know, give someone, in effect, the gift of life? And it's because Georgie was a friend. And I did not [01:32:00] like seeing a friend die in front of me. And she was. Kidney disease is an awful thing. It slowly creeps up on you, you become more debilitated, more tired, um, and the way that things are extended is, you know, the medical world intrudes more upon your world. So, I was looking at Georgie dying, this was [01:32:30] some, a few years ago, and I thought if no one else will, I will. So, you know, being a public servant, we had coffee at the archives cafe, and I said to Georgie, Look, I've got two kidneys and you need one. Do you want it? There was quite a bit of tears, um, and then she and I, [01:33:00] began this amazing journey. And giving someone a kidney is actually not that straightforward. It takes ages. And I don't mean the bit where they cut it out of you with a knife. I mean, it's the bit that comes up to it. Georgie and I went through this journey and I learned an awful lot about myself and I learned a lot about kidney disease, much of which I didn't want to. There were, there were some conversations that I [01:33:30] was almost hiding under the table, it was so awful. Anyway, I don't like seeing my friends die in front of me, but I also felt, this might sound a bit, you know, whatever, but I also felt Georgie had more to give us. And we had more to learn. So, that all ended up with, uh, two attempts, uh, and in the end, [01:34:00] um, you know, Georgie ended up with one of my kidneys. And for, for those that don't know about this stuff, and most people wouldn't, it's in effect an instant cure. You know, so you go from being sick to being well, just like that. Um, and.. Georgie struggled with that for a bit, and not so much from the post surgery. She struggled with the, the moving from being, you know, increasingly ill, almost invalid, to [01:34:30] being not. Um, and I tried to, you know, because of our relationship, I did quite a bit of teasing and come on, you know, all of that sort of stuff. I, I remember in Auckland Hospital. While, while she hated being in hospital and she's a really bad patient, she was awful. You know, the grand dame came out in a big way, but she also took on board everything she was [01:35:00] told. And I remember I was sitting on the end of her bed at the end of the ward in Auckland hospital and she was raging on because she had just read all of the side effects of her immunosuppressant regime. Um, and one of, one of it said that, um, she might grow hair. And she was raging on about how she had fought growing hair all her life and she was not going to do this now. And I just said to her, [01:35:30] Georgie, career opportunity, you could grow a beard, join the circus, be the bearded lady. The fact she was still quite sick and at the other end of the beard probably means I'm standing in front of you talking now. But we went through a lot. But kidney disease, as I said, is an awful thing and while that donation bought her more time and it bought her time for, to [01:36:00] help everyone some more, in the end it came and got her. And at the end, Georgie's strength and her courage came out. It takes a lot of courage. It takes a lot of courage to say.. This is it. She knew that when her second kidney failed and there was these, there was nothing from [01:36:30] here. She knew this was the end. She could have gone on to a renal dialysis and she just was not going to do that. So she took that decision. Now is the time. And I admire her bravery. So Georgie gave us a lot. She gave passion, she gave strength, she gave us things, we saw pride, we saw courage, and we saw sharing from her. [01:37:00] And she has left us with a great treasure. And that treasure is her legacy. We must never forget her legacy of what she did for all of us in this room. What she did for our country. And what has she done for people. So, we have lost an important New Zealander, uh, [01:37:30] and it is up to us to keep that legacy alive. She's not, but she is in us all. And it's up to us to keep that alive, to have the courage to do the things we want to do, have pride in ourselves, know our strengths and help others. So, let us go on in that legacy, we know what to do, she has shown us the [01:38:00] way. Thank you Grant. The Rainbow Room, Georgina sets the bar on equality. Our next memorable moment is the relaunch of the Rainbow Room at Parliament. Hello, I'm Georgina Beyer. [01:38:30] Um. I was elected to Parliament in 1999 after having served two terms as Mayor of Carterton in the Wairarapa. I was the world's first out transsexual to have been elected to a Parliament and indeed to have been elected as a Mayor, uh, for that matter. My arrival in Parliament was, um, taken with some surprise, I guess. My electorate was a rural, conservative seat, Wairarapa, one of the [01:39:00] largest general seats in the country at the time. And so while it was remarkable, uh, that a transsexual had been able to be, um, elected as a constituency MP, I think the story really lies behind those. who supported me getting into Parliament, and that is the people of Wairarapa. I was very proud of that. I had no idea at the time that I was considered to be the world's first out transsexual. I added the out bit myself at a United Nations Human Rights [01:39:30] Conference in Montreal a while later, because I decided that I needed to pay homage to those who may have been transgender. But could never have been out. And if they had served perhaps in parliaments or whatever before. So that was just my little acknowledgement I think to those who may not have been able to be as out as I was able to be. Outside of these boundaries, outside of this coastline, there isn't a [01:40:00] person I know who is not trans or, uh, intersex. Who doesn't look to Georgina Byer as the iconic Gandhi of the movement. I know that's how she sees herself, but being the first in the world, again is a remarkable achievement. And her courage, her tenacity, her authenticity transforms hearts and minds. I don't wanna be [01:40:30] meow dramatic, but we know that queer kids around the world in places that are less affirming than in New Zealand. Struggle every day with anxiety, with depression, with suicidal thoughts, but we know that when they see somebody in legitimate positions of power around them, they are reassured. They feel validated. They feel worthy. They feel they can aspire to something. In the future, so [01:41:00] every queer out elected politician in the newspaper on television is life affirming and to many millions of kids that is life changing and in many cases that is life saving because you see yourself as an authentic, real, legitimate person, member of humanity and you see a pathway out of the difficulty. It is incredibly fitting [01:41:30] that this new and improved Rainbow Room will be dedicated near the 50th anniversary of the Stonewall Uprising in New York City. Because one of the many, many legacies of Stonewall is the power of an individual act to reverberate around the world. And at a time when LGBTQ people find themselves under attack in far too many corners of this globe, including in my home country of the United States. The actions and the [01:42:00] work here in the New Zealand Parliament have never been more important. Because for the last several decades, you all have been at the forefront of the movement for the rights and dignity of LGBTQ people around the world. From marriage equality to the globally historic election of Georgina Beyer, you all have not just made change for people here in New Zealand. You have set the bar and challenged the world to live up to our highest ideals and to be our best selves. And so, my hope [01:42:30] as we dedicate this rainbow room, Is that the work and the words and the actions that fill it in the years to come will be work and actions that continue to challenge not just people in New Zealand to be better, but continue to challenge advocates and activists and politicians and people around the globe to move equality and justice forward for LGBTQ people. To continue to set that bar higher and higher, to [01:43:00] continue to challenge the world, to continue to demonstrate through the power of your example, that equality must always win. And someday, years from now, when as we say in the United States, our understanding of we the people finally includes all of us, a young LGBTQ kid will grow up here in Wellington or in Russia. Or in South America, or in New York City. And never have to know what these moments of progress felt like to [01:43:30] all of us. Because they will never know anything different. And that will be because of advocates and activists and out politicians who dreamed of a different world. It will be because of everyday people who marched and fought for a better tomorrow. It will be because of allies who stood up or spoke out. It will be because of all of you. Thank you all.[01:44:00] Our next two speakers have flown from Darwin especially to attend tonight's memorial service for Georgina. To reflect on their friendship and their time in parliament with Georgina, please welcome Tim Barnett and Ramon Manamopoto. Kia ora tatou, [01:44:30] ko Tim aho. I'm going to just change the agenda very slightly. Um, I've got the third person here, Steve Chadwick, who was one of the Labour members of Parliament who was absolutely on side with Georgina. And she is going to read a message from Helen Clark, who's just been travelling around the world. Also, I just want to recognise Jill Pettis and Mariam Street, who are here tonight, who are part of the team supporting Georgina. [01:45:00] So, first to nui ki a koutou. And it is humbling to be asked to give Helen Clark's tribute to Georgina tonight. Georgina was my house sitting mate. So there's lots of stories to tell you about Georgie, as I knew her, and myself. And we did walk together. But from Helen Clark. In 1995, [01:45:30] Georgina's election as Mayor of Carterton attracted a lot of attention throughout New Zealand. Georgina was a powerful speaker, passionate about her beliefs in transgender. She commanded attention. She was re elected in 1998 with a 90% majority of the vote. Impressed by Georgina, the New Zealand Labour Party asked her to stand in the Wairarapa electorate at the 1999 general election. [01:46:00] Georgina's campaign was successful and the rest you've heard about tonight is history. But she did attract attention worldwide as the world's first openly transgender member of parliament. Georgina was in parliament for just over seven years of the nine years of our government. MPs. Her style was to be a conscience for who she was and the people she [01:46:30] represented. She had strong views, a sharp tongue, and rich, complex life experience from which she could draw stories and views. She was a strong advocate for equity and for justice for all. We'll remember Georgina for her dedication to working with and for the most marginalized and for equity and justice. We will remember [01:47:00] Georgina for her wicked sense of humor. And we will remember Georgina for her own personal courage in breaking through the boundaries of stigma and prejudice. to become an acclaimed public figure. At the time tonight of Matariki, may Georgina now rest in peace. From Helen Clark, the Right Honourable Helen Clark, the former Prime[01:47:30] Minister. APPLAUSE Earth to earth, ashes to ashes, dust to dust. That's it, for most of us. However, just occasionally, Somebody does it differently. They leave something of meaning behind, not a dry old bone or a name on a plaque, but instead, powerful [01:48:00] memories. Stories that improve with the telling. Achievements which survive the person's passing. They left some part of the world and some part of our souls in a better place than they found it. Georgina ticked all those boxes, why else would Hundreds of us gather here tonight traveling through, from a Darwin perspective, the rigor of a cold winter's night in Wellington to remember and celebrate her. I first [01:48:30] heard of Georgina as the improbable Mayor of Cartherton. I first met her as she was emerging as the Labour candidate for the Wairarapa when attending the Hero Parade in Auckland. She joined me in Parliament later that year as one of Labour's Rainbow Trio. We worked together on sex worker and civil union law reform. She claimed that her role was allowed to persuade [01:49:00] mine as strategist. A senior whip during the last three years of that Labour government. I handled some of the excitement and issues which she generated as her focus moved to life out of politics. And then, just as COVID was arriving, she used to pop round to see us at our home in Miramar. I don't want to linger tonight. There are better and better informed speakers here than me. But I just wanted to offer a crisp [01:49:30] answer from my perspective. to the four questions that float in my mind. They're the questions which apply to every life lived, and they take on special meaning for extraordinary lives such as Georgina's. Georgina was a true product of her iwi, in spite of being rejected by them, and of Aotearoa New Zealand. She emerged through our egalitarian society, which nurtured and accepted her rebelliousness [01:50:00] and her feistiness. And responded to her very reasonable demand to be accepted and to be heard. She handled her complexities with skill and made them into enigmas. As just one of many examples, she was literally a former sex worker with the surname of a captain of industry. Second, what has she left behind her? Georgina allowed the [01:50:30] extraordinary to live among us. She was a very definition of, it's possible. More than just being, which would be a big achievement in itself, she became the poster child for reforms which were world leading. That support was authentic because those reforms shouted Georgina from the rooftops. They were emancipating laws, offering a pathway in from the margins. When Georgina departed parliament, ultimately for unemployment, [01:51:00] and her losing battle with a chronic health condition. She showed a survivor's instinct, which few of us could aspire to. Third, what will we miss about her? Georgina's sense of certainty was almost palpable. That alone inspired many of us here tonight. Her curled lip and the rasping powerful words delivered when required with just a hint of snarl. She had lived a life and had the [01:51:30] powerful ability to talk from that place of intense personal experience. Her words really did move minds and votes. Fourth, what could have been. Georgina was always ready to move on to the next project. My great regret was that our system.. or indeed any other system couldn't generate a meaningful role for Georgina after she left parliament. I saw a [01:52:00] possible role as an international advocate for what is the best about human rights in Aotearoa, but instead she experienced long periods of introspection with brief interludes of bright sunlight. That was her and our loss. I really don't know if Georgina believed in a heaven. Some here do, for sure. I do know that in our memories, in our dreams, and in the heaven, we may imagine, and even experience, Georgina will [01:52:30] play a special role as a compelling commentator, as a determined challenger, and as the living example of what can be. I don't want to finish talking about Georgina, uh, without some of the, couple of the funny little stories. Uh, but I also wanted to recognize there's something special about this venue. The last time I saw Georgina performing publicly was prior to the Oxford Union trip, I think, but I wasn't, I wasn't there. Uh, she [01:53:00] interviewed Chelsea Manning, um, who was the, um, before her gender reassignment. was the person who did Wikileaks, uh, Australia refused to let Chelsea Manning in, New Zealand let her in, and Georgina and she spoke on stage, and two extraordinary, uh, transgender people were there in that interaction. I also, I think my favourite story about Georgina is from Kieran McAnulty. Um, who is now [01:53:30] the Labour Member of Parliament for Wairarapa. And, uh, I think Georgina Uzei used to, um, do childcare for him. He's certainly part of the Labour Fano over there. And back in that first 1999 election, which undoubtedly had some exciting moments. At a, uh, at a candidate's meeting, somebody from the audience shouted out, Where's your penis? And she responded saying, I sent a jar on the mantelpiece, where's yours?[01:54:00] My other, the other one I'll mention, I said I was a whip towards the end, so parliamentary staff would come to me when there were dramas in MPs offices. Somebody come to me very cautiously towards the end of Georgina being there to say that she wanted to have the big box on her table Removed because it was getting in the way But the big box was actually the the monitor and she never actually used email all the time [01:54:30] She did the job and she just wanted to get rid of the box which completely befuddled the parliamentary rules So there we are and one last It's a memory about the rainbow room the rainbow room I think currently with the changes in Parliament, it's no longer, um, it is there, but it's not publicly available. I'm sure it will be soon. Um, Charles Chevelle, who is another one part of the, part of these journeys, one of our gay MPs, every time he had a committee meeting in the room, [01:55:00] often with terrible right wing Tories, fundamentalists, he used to ask that the meeting acknowledge that it was his special room. As a rainbow member of parliament. And you deeply irritate them in the process. So much more I could say. But Georgina, thank you girl. You gave us your all. Rest in peace.[01:55:30] Um, and I'm the partner of Tim Georgina was a, uh, a very special friend to us and I, there are many wonderful stories that I would like to. [01:56:00] But I am actually here to deliver a speech on behalf of my cousin, Louisa Wall, who was the sponsor of the Marriage Equality Bill and, uh, was very close to Georgina. Good, uh, Louisa is currently in Geneva. Louisa says that she remembers Georgina. As a fearless and brave trans woman who left an [01:56:30] indelible mark on history as a beacon of hope and inspiration for the LGBTIA QIA God, this just gets longer and longer, uh, community in Aotearoa and across the world. That was actually one thing that Georgina did say to me that the LGBT.. The alphabet was getting a little bit too much. Um, Georgina's journey [01:57:00] was a testament of her unwavering determination and resilience. As the world's first openly transgender mayor, member of parliament, and respected actress, she shattered barriers and challenged societal norms. With unwavering grace, her courage paved the way for the future, for future generations of transgender individuals to embrace their true selves, fostering inclusivity and acceptance.[01:57:30] Beyond her political accomplishments, Georgina's infectious spirit and enthralling presence captivated hearts, minds, transcending gender identity and her charismatic nature and dedication to social justice and equality resonated with people from all walks of life, making her an emblem of hope for the LGBT community.[01:58:00] IA plus communities worldwide. Georgina's legacy extends beyond Aotearoa. And we did see that very much tonight with Sue Ian McCallum, um, in Sue Ian McCallum's message and her story has served an inspiration for countless trans individuals globally. My cousin says that their dreams are not limited. Your dreams are not limited by [01:58:30] society's prejudices. And Georgina demonstrated that gender identity should never hinder one's potential for greatness. Encouraging others to embrace their authentic selves without fear or compromise. Those are some words that my cousin has written for Georgina this evening.[01:59:00] I would just like to add to that, that during Georgina's, uh, years, Um, around 2016, Georgina didn't have a lot of, um, pute, and at one point she didn't have a car. Louisa and my other cousin, funny [01:59:30] theme this, Nanaia Mahuta, um, saw that and decided that they would, um, have a fundraiser to raise some money for Georgina so that she could at least have a car. Um, we actually never knew how much money we would raise but we did raise enough for her and that evening Tariana Turia, uh, was still in parliament and she came to support that particular [02:00:00] fundraiser. Funnily enough, so did The very people that I had to keep Georgina away from during that Enough is Enough March. Brian and, um, Brian and Hana Tamaki purchased the table. And they came to that meeting. I'm not going to tell you why, but if you do want to come and talk to me about it later, I'm happy to, uh, to, to share some of the details that I do know about. [02:00:30] Thank you, Brian and Hannah, for your car that you brought for Georgina. As Grant had earlier mentioned, and I thought Georgina had forgotten the fact that I was the poor little sod that had.. To follow her around during that enough is enough much at the last minute. No warning and We [02:01:00] were in the middle of all of this this blackness and not enough You remember but it had been raining and we were standing ankle deep in mud in the middle of this March And I thought that actually someone was gonna clout us So but before I knew it Georgina had spun on her heels After I did tell her that she should leave, and took off, and I turned around and she was gone.[02:01:30] And there she was standing in front of Parliament, and I hadn't quite figured out what was going on, and she was screaming at the, at the TV cameras. Um, and it wasn't until a little bit later that, um, you know, a few minutes later after, I crawled my way out of that crowd back up and through the mud and back onto the steps of Parliament. And I'd just like to say that that flag that everyone was holding in front of Parliament, That was mine.[02:02:00] And I, and I, and I hung and Jackie's sitting down here going, Yes. I, I, I snuck into Parliament, into the area above the doors of Parliament and threw it over the, over the, uh, over the balcony for my one moment. I thought I was going to get arrested. Um, but, Georgina, love you. [02:02:30] Um, and thank you for everything that you, for your friendship, really, um, for being just present. So thank you all very, very much also for, um, giving, uh, or coming and sharing in this, in this space.[02:03:00] Kota Hikapua! He mara mai i te whenua Kia peti te [02:03:30] rohe tua He kahurangi He kore koe ena roho[02:04:00] [02:04:30] Uh, thank you, Tim. Thank you Ramon. And, uh, thank you Stevie Chadwick. Fantastic. Our next presentation, we're not too far away, Our next presentation was filmed in Parliament Grounds and at Scotty and Mel's Cocktail and Lounge Bar. It was recorded three weeks before Georgina sadly passed away. It was [02:05:00] recorded for World Pride, um, in Sydney and was played right before. Here we go with a little bit of world pride from Georgina. Georgina passed away peacefully on Monday the 6th of March, surrounded by her nearest and dearest [02:05:30] friends. She had fully accepted the reality of her life diminishing. She had a twinkle in her eyes and was cracking jokes right to the end. For our next performance.. Please choose, this time, to reflect on your memories of Georgina. Could you please welcome back to the stage, the one and only Polly Fuller.[02:06:00] Thank you so much, Polly. Fantastic. This evening's presentation could not have happened without the support of so many people that gave their time and their energy to make it all happen. Gareth Watkins from Pride New Zealand. A massive [02:06:30] thank you for putting together all of our visuals for this evening's performance and production. Without your assistance, none of this would have been possible. And we're entirely grateful for all the hard work that you've contributed to make this evening a success. The Mary Potter Hospice. For the love, support, and care you showed. Not only for Georgina, but all of us, who practically lived there during the [02:07:00] final week. In Georgina's own words, on the day she arrived at the hospitals, it was, I like it here. I feel safe, and I feel comfortable. Harbour City Funeral Home, for the love, respect and dignity that you treated Georgina with. And also for tonight's printed memorial sheets, which they have done at their own expense. And [02:07:30] I'd really like to give a big shout out to, uh, Ruth. Um, I'm gonna say it out loud, fuckin diamond. Honestly. Really. The, uh. The dignity that you treated our Georgina with could never be surpassed. The Christopher Tooker Memorial Trust, the Peter Rule Foundation [02:08:00] and the Rainbow New Zealand Charitable Trust, thank you all for your financial support and input to make this evening possible. We could not have done it without you all. And to all of you out there who contributed to the Give a Little page to assist us with tonight's memorial. And last but not least, the behind the scenes crew that have worked tirelessly over the last four months to ensure that our dear [02:08:30] friend Georgina would be remembered for all eternity. Heather Hennady and Helene Cullen, Louise Ricard Sims, Cherie and Tiaki Freeman, Brian Jenkins, and my gorgeous husband Scotty Kennedy, Scotty Kennedy Born, [02:09:00] for all your time on the computer. I'm putting up with my last minute changes. Richard Sinnott and all the crew here at the Embassy Theatre. Absolutely outstanding. A massive thank you to all of our guest speakers. Um, as well. Kevin Inouye and Te Fana Fana. The fabulous Polyfilla. And Colagen of course. And [02:09:30] Threesome, the band you heard out there. Apparently there's only two tonight. One taken ill. But they are available for hire, so if you need to know that, then, uh, do come and see us, we can put you in touch. And of course, Cola Gin. The amazing Cola Gin. At a moment's notice, we ring, uh, got hold of Cola, and, darling, could you come down and perform this number for us? And she went, bang, on the button, baby, right there.[02:10:00] Um, I just, before we get on to the next piece, I.. Before we get on to the next piece, I want you to all stand up and thank this man. Because he, this man, was Georgina's family, was her brother. And he was there beside her to the end. And we love you now. [02:10:30] Every single person out there loves you. And you never get enough acknowledgement of what you do. So thank you. Thank you darling. I, um, I really just think that this is what we do for friends, and if any one of us would do the same, um, and I did promise Georgie, um, and she slowly slipped away, Georgie needs to come around to [02:11:00] our place every Monday night for dinner, and um, it was really important to us to make sure that she was eating properly. Um, and she left Parliament. She was on the bones of her fucking ass, to be quite honest. Um, but she was a friend and I loved her dearly. And every Monday night, she would come round to our place for dinner. And we would sit there and we'd have a hoot and a laugh and cook dinner. She'd usually arrive between 3pm and 3. 30 in the afternoon. Georgina passed away at exactly [02:11:30] 3. 30pm. On Monday. Before I, uh, invite Kevin Hanui and, um, Te Whanau Whanau back on stage, I do have one unscheduled guest that I would like to invite up onto the stage. Ladies and gentlemen, I've only met this lady twice before. Could you please welcome.. Karen Morrison, Georgina's sister.[02:12:00] I did have a meeting with, uh, Karen and it was, uh, and we sat in the bar and had a couple of drinks and chatted and, um, we were talking about Georgina and different colours and things and, um, Georgina loved purple and Karen says, look what I'm wearing, purple. Ladies and gentlemen, Georgina's sister, Karen.[02:12:30] Kia ora everyone. My name's Karen Morris. And don't say Mokoloa. Laughter Uh, it's a, this was not planned or scheduled but it's really important that I get up um, to acknowledge all of you. Uh, I've been [02:13:00] sitting there thinking, what am I going to say? From the heart. First and foremost I would like to thank and Scotty. Um, I don't know how shocked they were when my husband and I walked into their bar. I've never been in there before and it was important. It was a crazy, it was Cuba Duba night, yeah. Um, but it was important [02:13:30] um, for me To meet them because they were her nearest and dearest, along with Heather and, whom I've met for the first time tonight, and others that were with her, especially at the end. So, from our whanau, uh, to you, and we're just so grateful that you were there and someone was there with her. Um, it was, it's been difficult, I'm gonna be honest, it's been difficult. Um, because, as.. [02:14:00] That is whanau toto, that is blood whanau, we haven't had a chance. to grieve or mourn because there hasn't been a place. So, it's, this is it for me. Um, so thank you for giving me this time and space to do that. I just want to actually acknowledge also that I'd never met Georgina until 1985. January [02:14:30] 1985. There's a whole back story that I'm not going to go into tonight. Um, But I was searching for my birth family and, um, discovered that the brother I thought that I had was actually my sister. So Georgina, I've only ever had a sister. Georgina has been my sister since 1985.[02:15:00] Our, our mother passed away in 1978. Uh, so I never got to meet her, but I learnt about her. from her family, um, my Aunty Moana and her daughter Kim, who's here tonight. Um, and there's another Aunty that is, was going to be here, but she couldn't make it from, uh, Havelock North, Aunty Joan. Um, they were [02:15:30] my, uh, my mother's sisters and, um, So they knew Georgina as George and, uh, have been on her journey her whole life, so I'm really grateful that you're here tonight, Aunty Moana, and we're thinking of Aunty Joan. Uh, in 1984, 85, when I met Georgina for the first time. I met my birth father for the first time, and his name was Jack Bertrand. That's the Bertrand family, [02:16:00] and I'd like to acknowledge the Bertrand cousins that are here tonight, that have come to support this evening. It was such a special reunion, to meet Georgina for the first time, to meet my birth father for the first time, and to meet Jack. The Bertrands do everything in a pack, you know, they all come and support. It's just beautiful and, um, And we've always been there on [02:16:30] the sidelines. Um, I would run into Georgina at the market in town or sitting outside Café Lafare or, um, Where else did I sit with her? Um, Gypsy Kitchen, I think it is, in Strathmore. And, um, we would just sit down and Actually I would listen and she would talk. Laughter But it was always, just, it was always [02:17:00] lovely. And um, the last time that um, we spent time together was actually three years ago, um, this month, this week that we farewelled um, our mother's brother, Uncle Cyril. in New Plymouth, and Georgina came up for that funeral, for that tangi, and um, she got to, well these two of my [02:17:30] children got, oh no, this one, and yeah, got to actually um, have an amazing conversation with Georgina when we all went out for dinner. And that was really important to me, that they had that connection. Um, with their auntie, you know, and that was really um, another special occasion. The other, what I've learned tonight, I've learned about the loving and intimate [02:18:00] friendships that my sister had with you all. And that's helped fill the space for me of the time that I didn't get to spend with her. So I'm really grateful to you all for loving her. For caring for her, um, for taking her under your wing, um, To walk beside her on this amazing journey that she's had in this lifetime. And definitely a legacy that she has left [02:18:30] for, uh, future generations. So, on that note, lovely to meet you all. I hope you've had a great evening. Kia [02:19:00] ora. to invite Te Whanau Whanau, Maori Cultural Performing Group, to the stage for our final performance. Along with, uh, Kevin Hanui for our closing karakia. Uh, Kia ora tatou. Um, as the, our group, uh, comes down on the, to the platform below, I just wanted to acknowledge again all the speakers before us, Mel, Scotty, everyone [02:19:30] who's contributed to this evening. I also wanted to, uh, To the who are here today. Um, it's a very big, um, thing for them to be with us this, this evening. I wanted to say that, uh, Georgina was really, in my opinion, um, giving right until the end. Um, I was in Sydney at the World Pride when Georgina spoke. [02:20:00] Georgina was celebrated there. And Georgina was celebrated at human rights conferences around the world. So, Georgina, uh, was inspiring to many, um, civil activists around the world, whether they from Africa, Morocco, United States, Russia, Europe, South America, Georgina was a real pillar of, of inspiration. And I just wanted to to underpin just [02:20:30] how much of an impact as a global leader of rainbow, um, communities, of trans communities, of gay, lesbian, bisexual, non binary, intersex communities, all of those communities, um, where we have diverse characteristics around how we present ourselves. love. Georgina was, was the champion. So I wanted to, um, honor this, um,[02:21:00] this occasion, um, and so we have a song that was composed. Um, to honor Georgina. It's a farewell song. It's a song that is, um, honors Georgina as whakawahine. As a, as a trans woman. As a, as a woman. As a leader. Uh, and it's fitting that, um, we should honor Georgina in this way. We [02:21:30] don't have many waiata in Maori, from my knowledge, that acknowledges our, our whakawahine in such a way. And we have lost a few already, um, this year, and I think of Manaoroa, um, Te Wao as one, and there are others. But for all of those, uh, whakawahine, wahine toa, this is our, uh, tribute to Eden tonight. Um, and so we thank you all for, for, Thank you for being able to share this with us and [02:22:00] to give us an occasion to honor Georgina in this way. Nō reira, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā tātou katoa. At the end of our performance there will be a karakia and that will be us. Um, for the evening.[02:22:30] Kua mutua te rinawero ki te [02:23:00] ura o te ahi. Kua iho te toi ngata mata e pakalui iri.[02:23:30] Wow.[02:24:00] [02:24:30] Why Born in Joinah A martyr in Cock a doodlie eee [02:25:00] Why. God, God, God,[02:25:30] [02:26:00] Wow. Well, we're uh, at the end of tonight's memorial service. But please do join us back in Blonini's Bar to swap stories and toast a remarkable icon, Georgina Byam. But just before we go, we thought it only appropriate to let Georgina have the last word. I [02:26:30] saw a piece from the New Zealand Herald in 2005, and it was five things I've learned so far. And I'm thinking, can I read these back to you? Oh, God, yes, OK. I know these things can make them bite you in the backside sometimes. But they're, they're, they're really.. It's the trouble with, with speeches off the top of your head. But they're, they're really cool things. And the five things that you, you, you noted down were, one, be who you are. Yes. I stand by that. I have been. And you continue [02:27:00] to be. Yes, yes. Incredibly, I have so much admiration for. Um, see challenges as opportunities. Yes. Yeah, because um, otherwise it gets you down. That goes back to my sort of um, some of the reflections I had on suicide and, and, and bad things that have happened to you. You can walk around with a chip on your shoulder all you like, or else you can, you know, meet the challenge and sort of know I'm, there's something better than that.[02:27:30] Don't dispose of past experiences. No, don't dispose of past experiences at all. Um, you know, that history, for better or for worse, is your make up. It's what makes you who you are. It's what's sustained you until now. I'm not saying live in the past or wallow in it or anything, but just as a marker. You know, it provides points of reference, I [02:28:00] think. Be upfront. Oh, for sure. Well, in my life, that's definitely been an advantage. Some might think it's been a disadvantage, and even though, you know, some could say, well, look at the results of it, like right now, what I'm having, but no, it's um, yeah. And the final one was believe in what you say, but think before you say it. Yeah, think before you say something sometimes, because, you know, you don't want to [02:28:30] unnecessarily, um, Stomp on other people's mana. You know, or at least, um, agree to disagree. You know, on some things. I mean.. I don't like a lot of the indoctrinal.. Attitudes of the Brian Tarnakis of this world, or the Garth McVickers of this world, or the McCroskries of this world. Those who have a different view, but I'll defend their right to say it. And I [02:29:00] prefer to see, eyeball to, you know, look in the eyes of my enemy, rather than those that work subversively. Well, thank you so much. I mean, we've been talking for, I think, about two and a half hours. Oh, okay. Goes, goes very fast. But, um, uh, look, I, I think, um.. Have you asked about everything you wanted to know? No. No. No, no. Well, what were some of the other questions? They might have been better. No, we've covered a lot of ground. It's, it's.. [02:29:30] It's been, it's been great. But, um, yeah, thank you so much because, um, I think there are a whole lot of people out there that really admire, um, what you've done and who you are and, um, just seeing you in Parliament, I mean, the symbolic nature of that gives so many people hope. But did they feel the same way with Chris and with Tim and with Marion and with Charles and with Grant and.. Marilyn Waring, of course. I think she's [02:30:00] revered in that regard because of her experience, which is incredible. And, um, you know, many others. For the transgender world, yes. But I think apart from that, I'm, I'm not so special. Um, I think people just enjoyed at the time the whole spectacle of this unconventional politician arriving on the national [02:30:30] stage and then the international stage legitimately, cleanly, and there was just a whole lot of elements I think that gave people a sense of, you know. I feel good about this. I don't feel badly about it. Good on her. You know, there's some kind of, sort of, underdog. Battler from Struggle Street did well, just to pinch a phrase off John Banks. Um. That I was mayor of his hometown makes me happy.[02:31:00] Yeah, I mean, I kind of think it was actually, um. For me personally, you know, we have a strong person that knows who they are, that is doing the right thing. And actually I, I, I really admire that. Thank you. Thank you.[02:31:30] Thank you all for your attendance here this evening. I'm Malcolm Kennedy Vaughan. It's been a pleasure to host you all. Please join us in Blondini's. Ka kite anō.

IRN: 3622
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/chosen_family_night_panel.html
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1107354
TITLE: Chosen Family Night panel
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Bronwyn White; Caleb Gordon; Dana de Milo; David Oxenbridge; Erin Ramsey; Gareth Watkins; Jan Logie; Kerryn Pollock; Rev Dr Susan Jones; Will Hansen
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; 2020s; Alfies 2; Amanduh la Whore; Aotearoa New Zealand; Arkansas; Bistro bar; Bloomers Review (Alfies); Bronwyn White; Caleb Gordon; Carmen Rupe; Chechnya Vigil (Wellington); Chrissy Witoko; Circle (magazine); City Gallery Wellington Te Whare Toi; Cuba Street; Dana de Milo; David Oxenbridge; Doodle Inn; Elizabeth Kerekere; Embassy of the Russian Federation in New Zealand; Erin Ramsey; Fired Up Stilettos; Gareth Watkins; Gender Minorities Aotearoa (GMA); Georgina Beyer; Heritage New Zealand Pouhere Taonga; InsideOUT Kōaro; Jacquie Grant; Jan Logie; Karori; Kerryn Pollock; Leilani Sio; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Member of Parliament; My Body, My Business: New Zealand Sex Workers in an Era of Change (book); New Zealand Heritage List / Rārangi Kōrero; OUT! empire; Oaks Complex; Parliament buildings; Parliament grounds; Part of the Whanau: The Emergence of Takatāpui Identity (thesis); Pound nightclub; Rainbow Crossing (Paekākāriki); Rainbow Crossing (Wellington); Rainbow List Project; Rev Dr Susan Jones; Rion McKenzie; Royal Oak Hotel; Russia; Scott Kennedy; St Andrew's on the Terrace; St Peter's church; Tavern bar (Royal Oak Hotel); The Glamaphones; Toledo bar (Royal Oak Hotel); Transgender Day of Remembrance; Tīwhanawhana; United States of America; Walktours NZ; Warren and Mahoney Architects; Wellington; Wellington Pride Festival (2023); Will Hansen; academia; activism; bisexual; compact disc; disability; disability rights; femininity; gay; gender expression; hotel; hīkoi; intersex; joyfulness; leadership; lesbian; lesbian separatism; mana; masculinity; non-binary; ostracisation; police; pridenz. com; public bar; queer; queer joy; religion; resilience; resistance; respect; rural; sailor; sex work; social history; social media; stripper rights; takatāpui; trans; transfeminine; transgender; whakapapa
DATE: 17 June 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: City Gallery Wellington Te Whare Toi, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the Chosen Family Night panel discussion held on Saturday 17 June 2023 at City Gallery Wellington. Panellists Kerryn Pollock, Erin Ramsey and Gareth Watkins share their passion for unveiling and sharing rainbow history through local stories. The event is MC'ed by Will Hansen. A special thanks to the organisers and participants for allowing the event to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Kia ora everybody. Uh, yes, so my name is Will. Firstly, just huge thanks to Caleb for putting this all together. Um, it's just such a privilege to get to come to events like this where we get to gather our communities together and, uh, it's so wonderful. I know, uh, for myself, just seeing so many familiar faces and new faces as well. And it really does feel like coming home when you come to queer events in Pōneki and, uh, I always think what my young self would think, my young closet self would think getting to come in and keep on seeing [00:00:30] all these wonderful rainbow faces and, uh, new faces every time as well. Um, so welcome everyone. So glad you could be here. Um, it's my absolute honor to be your MC, uh, for this. fabulous panel today. We're in the presence of such incredible queer historic knowledge, uh, sitting, sitting on either side of me, um, who are doing such incredible things, uh, to preserve and share queer histories. Um, so yeah, today we're going to hear from, uh, some local stories about queer lives in this place, [00:01:00] uh, in Porneke, uh, and after each, each one of these guys are going to, I'll pass the mic around, oh no, I'll introduce you guys. Yeah, I'll introduce them. And then, they're each gonna come up and, um, give a presentation about some local stories. Uh, then I'll ask some questions to get us started. Then I'll open it up to all of you. Um, if you do ask a question, please wait for a microphone to be handed to you. Uh, we're recording for prideNZ. com, so you get to be part of history if you ask a question. So I think that's a really good incentive. [00:01:30] Um, and yeah, without further ado, uh, so.. Firstly, we've got the wonderful Kieran Pollock, uh, Kieran is a historian and senior heritage, uh, advisor at Heritage New Zealand, who's currently leading the Rainbow List project, which I'm sure we'll hear more about, it's a fantastic project, and I encourage you all to get thinking and send Kieran emails if you've got any ideas after, after Kieran's speech, uh, and then we'll hear from Erin Ramsey, Erin is a A colleague of mine up at Victoria University, Aaron's [00:02:00] just finished their master's thesis about histories of non binary people in Aotearoa, New Zealand, so that's absolutely incredible work that we're very lucky that they've done, so excited to hear more about that. And then finally we've got the wonderful Gareth Watkins sitting over here. Uh, Gareth is currently a data man collections data manager. at Te Papa, um, and a community historian whose website, prideNZ. com, uh, has over 800 audio recordings of, yeah, it's a huge wahoo, it's awesome, of um, [00:02:30] different events and interviews that Gareth has done and other people have done. Um, so definitely check out prideNZ. com if you haven't already. Um, and he also does fabulous walk tours with his wonderful partner Roger, um, which I'm sure you'll talk about as well. So, yeah, without further ado. Uh, Kieran, would you like to get us started? Oh, don't forget, oh, yeah. Thank you, Will. Um, thanks so much for coming, everybody. Um, [00:03:00] I just want to reiterate, um, thank you to Caleb for putting this event on. It's truly amazing, and I think we all know how important, uh, events like this are to help us bring, bring us all together, um, in the face of some pretty horrific stuff that's going on right now. Also, I always have to shout out to Gareth's work when I do this sort of thing because it is a truly amazing resource. I use it a lot in my work at Heritage New Zealand, Pohiri Taonga, and just generally speaking. Uh, do check it out. That is [00:03:30] truly amazing. Um, so.. A really important, um, piece of work that I do in my professional life, which is really meaningful to me in my personal life, is, uh, we'll mention the Rainbow List Project, which is a project that is geared towards Um, ensuring that our heritage list, which is what Heritage New Zealand does, it's our national list of historic places, that it really represents and includes our communities didn't used to.[00:04:00] Um, I think we all know why. I don't need to go into the reasons there. Um, and it's something that we needed to remedy. So that's my, my baby and it brings me a lot of joy and fulfillment. Um, heritage is all about the history of place. And so in the course of I've come across some really fascinating places, um, including in Wellington, and I'm going to talk about one of them tonight. So, [00:04:30] um, all of you, I'm sure, will recognize the rainbow crossing that's not too far away from here. I do apologize for this less than ideal picture. Um, so that's it from the air. And the building to the right of that is the Oaks Complex building, uh, which has totally seen better days. Um, . It wasn't once that way. It is now. Uh, but so when the Rainbow Crossing was opened on [00:05:00] that intersection in 2018, the Mayor of Wellington at the time, Justin Lester, said it was placed there because Cuba Street is considered by many to be the spiritual home of Wellington's Pride movement, which is absolutely true. It's a great shout out to our city's queer history, but it's much more than that. Um, the Crossing was a perhaps, Overdue public acknowledgement that Wellington actually has a queer history. Um, It's like the heritage list, you know, we've [00:05:30] got all of these places and lists and books and so on, um, that for various reasons don't tell our stories, um, and it's up to us to remedy that as historians. Um, so, if Cuba Street was the queer spiritual home of our city, then the Royal Oak Hotel was something like the living room or the kitchen. You know when you're at a party and people congregate in the living room or the kitchen. Well, absolutely, the Royal Oak Hotel site, um, was that place. Um, and can I just [00:06:00] say, if anyone here was there at the time, I would love to talk to you, um, about it. Uh, so.. That's the Royal Oak Hotel. So this building was on the site of the Oaks complex now. So for those of you who don't know, that's the building that has, I think it's got the body shop on one corner and Area 51 on another corner. This building here was built in 1900. [00:06:30] It was the third hotel of the same name on that site. This view here, I don't know if it's obvious to you all, but it's the Manor Street side, so you imagine if you're standing at the bus stop outside the Bargain Chemist and you're looking towards the Oats Complex, that's the view that we're looking at here. Um, so why am I interested in this? Well, hotels and pubs and bars are really crucial sites in our queer history. Um, you know, if we're [00:07:00] thinking about chosen family, um, they are absolutely crucial to that concept. So, after the Second World War, This building here, the Royal Oak Hotel, became a really popular watering hole for visiting sailors, um, but also the city's colourful subcultures, and so we're talking sex workers and their pimps, gangsters, drug dealers, but also the queers of the city. It [00:07:30] had a number of different bars on the inside of it, um, And some of those bars were where the queers congregated. Um, this first one here is the tavern bar. And this is the public bar. Uh, the really important queer space in the Royal Oak was the Bistro Bar, and I have not ever located a photo of that, so if anyone has got any tips, do let me know.[00:08:00] Um, let's go back to the tavern bar. So, the late and absolutely great Georgina Byer, um, rest her, and our local hospitality legend Malcolm Kennedy Vaughan met there in the early 1970s, uh, when 17 year old Georgina got her first job in Wellington as a night porter. Um, and Malcolm worked in the Oaks coffee shop nearby. I [00:08:30] had the great good fortune to.. about three hours talking to Georgina and Scotty and Mel about all manner of things, queer in Wellington, including this place. Um, we had quite a few wines, it was extremely entertaining. Um, and one of the highlights of my career to date. Um, I did record it, uh, but I, I haven't got any footage to share with you tonight because We did have a few [00:09:00] wines and I forgot to get permission to share the recording. Um, however I can tell you that, um, what Georgina told me about this place. So she said that the Royal Oak ran a diverse clientele. By the way, I just want to preface this by saying that the language in here is Georgina's language, her language of the time, absolutely valid to her. Some, it might not be for us today, but this is, this is what she said to me. The Royal Oak Hotel ran a [00:09:30] diverse clientele. If you wanted anything, you'd go to the Bistro Bar, so that's the bar that I have not found a photo of. Big rumbles would go down there. There were crims of all sorts, stealing to order. The Bistro Bar was where the trannies and the prostitutes would go. The Tavern Bar, so that one there, was where the gay boys would go. Upstairs was a Toledo, a more classy bar where the trendy gays went. Um, she told me that there wasn't much lesbian space at the Royal Oak, but um, [00:10:00] my research has shown that lesbians did indeed go to the Royal Oak, yay. Um, Um, apparently the story goes that they would be escorted in there by gay men. Um, it was really tricky for women to go into pubs back at that time, um, so they didn't even escort. Uh, but once they were inside, they went their separate ways and found the people that they were really interested in. Um, also the Royal Oak was a place where lesbian feminists [00:10:30] sold their lesbian journal, The Circle, which is the first lesbian journal in New Zealand in the 1970s when it first started being published. So obviously.. It was a place where lesbians went as well. Um, one of the things that I really love about the Royal Oak Hotel and I think why it's become such a, uh, source of interest to me is that it truly exemplifies the chosen family concept. Um, and I use that word, that sort of phrase liberally, um, [00:11:00] Georgina mentioned all the rumbles that went down there. There was a lot of criminal activity, um, that went on, um, but that's what families are like. There's the good, the good, the bad, and the ugly. Um, but it absolutely was a place where queer people could go, um, post second world war and feel at home. Um, I can't describe it better than Georgina does, so just bear with me while I read a small excerpt from her autobiography, Change for the Better, which [00:11:30] is an amazing read. Please read it. Um, she says, It was at the Royal Oak Hotel that I discovered the Wellington gay scene. The hotel had two bars, the Bistro and the Tavern. The Bistro was always seen as a bar for sailors, prostitutes and people of dubious morals, while the Tavern was definitely regarded as a gay bar. At the time, the Tavern Bar and the Dorian Society Club in Lambton Quay were the only two venues for gay men in Wellington. Carmen's establishments were also [00:12:00] welcoming of gay patrons, but I was totally unaware of the drag scene then. So just think, Georgina is 17 at this time. At the Royal Oak Hotel, I met Rion McKenzie, the hotel's restaurant manager. He was gay and intuitively detected that I was not straight. Rion befriended me and introduced me to a wide circle of people, both straight and gay. Through the tavern bar, I got to know the gay scene further. Though I was working as a porter, I was actually underage to be in a bar. I was [00:12:30] 17 and quite naive. But with my flamboyancy, I fitted in well. There was general acceptance of me as new, young meat. And I felt comfortable. For the first time in my life I was able to let my guard down a bit and become more relaxed. I wasn't immediately ostracized for being feminine and I didn't have to do the superficial macho thing. Being femmy or flamboyant among gays was the norm. Isn't that lovely?[00:13:00] Ah, so this is obviously Georgina looking absolutely stunning. What a babe. Um, and on the right is a very young Mel from Scotty and Mel's Bar. Um, yeah. So those two went on to flat together. They were the best of friends and I know that Georgina had dinner with Scotty and Mel every Monday. Um. Until not long before her passing. Which is just really [00:13:30] gorgeous. Um. Sadly, the hotel was demolished in 1979. Um, this is a real occupational hazard for me in heritage that so many of our queer spaces have been demolished or lost through other means. Um, it's a problem for us anyway. But particularly when you come to think of, you know, subcultures, marginal communities, whatever you want to call it. Um, who's.. whose tenure in these places is, is pretty [00:14:00] contingent on all sorts of things that are outside of their control. It's really hard to find actual places, still, that represent these people. And I know, Gareth, you find that with your walks. You know, you're often talking about what was there, rather than what is there today. Um, but if you look at the rainbow list, you'll see that there are some places left. Just a plug for that. So, this, this is the Oaks, looking slightly cooler than it does these days. This was built in 19, uh, 1981. [00:14:30] Um, it's actually designed by the very, uh, renowned architectural firm Warren and Marnie. And, um, for some reason they don't, um, talk about this as being one of their buildings. Uh, it's really hard to track, track down, but yes, they did design it. Um, There are some more photos of this on DigitalNZ, I think, um, and you can see the inside. It was supposed to be a pretty swanky, I think, mall. Apparently it was only supposed to be [00:15:00] temporary, but it was intended to be Wellington's Crystal Palace. So the Crystal Palace was a building in 1850s London that was built for a big fair. So it was supposed to be this amazing space, and it didn't quite work out that way. Um, however, um, because of its, um, connection to our queer history, I totally think it's right for a takeover. So if there are any, um, queer artists or performers out there, I think you should go up the stairs and check out the space and do something there. Because that would be [00:15:30] amazing. Um.. There were actually queer bars in this building as well, um, there was Bamboo, which I think Mel might have worked at, um, the Toledo, and later on Pound was there, yeah. So, it's no coincidence, um, that the Wellington branch of Alfies, which was a queer nightclub, that was first opened in Auckland and was open there for a very long time. Um, was opposite [00:16:00] the Oaks. So that's, as you can see, the Rainbow Crossing and that early 1980s building there, um, was the site of Alfie's. Um, that's um, marketing from the time. Pretty great. Uh, so Alfies II was opened between 1988 and 1994. Um, so some of you here might remember that place. Um, it was basically the [00:16:30] local headquarters of Out Magazine, which was a queer empire that was based in Auckland. And they had Alfies there. Um, also Saunders and Out magazine. Um, so this was the, the Wellington branch. Um, so the Alfies in Wellington also had a sauna for a time, I believe. Various other queer businesses. There was the Out Bookshop, um, which was open until [00:17:00] 1994, I think, when it closed. So when it opened.. The legendary trans diva, Carmen Arrupe, was flown in, she was living in Sydney at the time, to open it. Uh, Georgina Byer was one of the entertainers on the night, so Georgina had made a real career up in Auckland in the Alfies there as part of Bloomers, which was a, a dancing troupe, I guess you would say, very popular. Um, so they were flown down here to open Alfies. Um, Mal Kennedy Vaughan [00:17:30] was assistant manager for a time. Um, so just to reiterate, I don't think it's any coincidence that Alfie's was opened in this location, right opposite the Royal Oak Hotel. Um, it's really clear that this is a queer nexus for Wellington in terms of our queer history and heritage. And while it's not so obvious today, the Rainbow Crossing really speaks to that. Um, so for me.. This place, [00:18:00] this intersection, this building, or the building that once was, um, is an absolute, um, exemplification of a chosen family. Thank you. Kia ora tatou. Um, as Will said, my name's Erin. Um, I have recently submitted my master's thesis at Vic. [00:18:30] Um, I am currently awaiting my grade. So that's kind of a fun position to be in, but anyway, um, yeah, before I begin, I'd like to acknowledge Wellington's tangata whenua and whose lands we're currently on, um, including Ngāti Toa, Rangatira and Taranaki Whānui. Um, I'd also like to thank Caleb from City Gallery for helping put this event together and for Will, um, who invited me to [00:19:00] be a part of this, so yeah, very grateful. Um, I've only got the one slide, so apologies I haven't got any pictures, but, um, I'll try to tell this a bit like a story maybe. So if you want to like sit back, close your eyes, maybe just have a listen. So yeah, as you can see from my slide and Will's introduction, the topic of my thesis was non binary history in Aotearoa, New Zealand.[00:19:30] This was a tricky topic to approach, as some of you might imagine. Given that in our archives, there really aren't any written sources that use the label non binary beyond ones from probably the early 2010s on, this does not mean that our country Doesn't have non binary history. Um, as is possibly typical in queer history, you have to get creative with where you look for those stories. Um, so for my thesis, I turned to [00:20:00] oral history, um, as a, as a source. Um, Uh, place to find those stories, um, which Karen has kind of touched on a bit. Um, I ended up interviewing five non binary adults and elders about their lives, um, and worked with three others who provided written responses to some of my questions. The youngest of these eight was born in the early 1980s and the oldest turned 70 earlier this year. Um, so if anyone [00:20:30] tells you that, like, non binary people in New Zealand, like, oh, it's a young thing, everyone's under 30, they're wrong. Um, uh, yes. Uh, and two, two were born in the 1970s, three in the 1960s, and two in the 1950s. Um, it was an honor to hear these people's stories, um, and to work with them to add to queer and trans history in Aotearoa. Um, when I refer to my narrators tonight, I'll use pseudonyms to maintain anonymity. Um, though [00:21:00] on my actual thesis, I. Uh, most chose to use their real names. Um, so what has family meant to these people who I spoke to, what forms has it taken? Um, in the stories people gave me of their lives, um, I didn't find the straightforward stories you might expect from queer people of family rejection and then acceptance into queer community. Um, though relationships with the family [00:21:30] could be complicated. Um, Bryn, who grew up in Kirikou, which is a tiny area of the Waikato, um, they grew up in the 1950s. They found that their parents were accepting of their gender nonconformity as long as wearing their dad's clothing and running around barefoot was confined to the family farm. Um, Jacob, who grew up in a small town in North Canterbury in the 1980s, was surrounded by matriarchal figures during their childhood, lots of aunties who were mostly storytellers [00:22:00] in one way or another. Um, they experienced family as intergenerational, with lots of old folk and folk who were passing over and dying, and then lots of people being born. Um, Both Jacob and Bryn experienced trauma at the hands of their families because of their queerness. Jacob because of his family's growing involvement with fundamentalist Christianity in his teens. And Bryn because of their family's non acceptance of their intersex body. Um, And later in their early twenties, the shame when [00:22:30] Bryn came out as a lesbian. Um, However, especially in the privacy of the farm environment, more was accepted. Which is very interesting when you kind of think of the around queerness and rural spaces. Um, I think this speaks to both how family non acceptance of queerness has a lot to do with worries around external perception. Um, and also how usually those assigned female at birth. generally have a lot more leeway when it [00:23:00] comes to gender nonconformity. Jacob mentioned that in rural environments, the rules for femininity are really, really broad, but those for masculinity are very narrow, meaning there was no room for any gender expression, other than butch or stereotypically masculine. For their male cousins and their uncles, Lily, one of my narrators who grew up in the sixties and seventies and who was intergender and trans femme remembered assuming as a child that all little boys wanted to be girls until they found out that the local [00:23:30] neighborhood boys did not agree. Um, uh, queer community could be a boon to those who had found little acceptance elsewhere. Um, Huata, born in 1963, found Takatapui community in Dunedin and Wellington in the 1980s and 1990s. Um, and I'll read out, they, they gave me this really lovely.. Um, quote in the interview, which I think is really beautiful, um, as describing how they came across the term takatāpui. [00:24:00] Um, so they came across it by hanging out with quote, queer Māori who are very rebellious that stuck together to look after one another, who had been kicked out of their own families, their own communities, very flamboyant, very happy go lucky partying all the time. And I just really loved that. I understood what it meant. We celebrated it. It held us like a whānau, you know. We could be who we were within the term takatapui. It's so much more umbrella and embracing. I just wanted to be embraced. [00:24:30] I wanted to be part of something that didn't constrict me, but still reflected back to me that I was a worthy person, that I was enough. So, for Huata, uh, takatapui offered a form of whānau that they had not received growing up in state care. Um, Elizabeth Kirikiri writes that takatapui identity is based on whakapapa, mana, and inclusion. Um, so finding Takatāpui community was part of that restoration of mana and experience of inclusion for them. Um, and this is kind of a good place to mention [00:25:00] too when it comes to gender non conformity in New Zealand, Takatāpui were the first. Um, they were as Elizabeth Kitty title, so thesis, part of the whanau. Um, so Hu's experience of Takatapui community as whanau is a continuation of a much older tradition of Takatapui simply being members of the whanau. Um, Huta was also on the periphery of lesbian communities, but they felt alienated from them feeling they did not fit the certain criteria or the certain look of the lesbian [00:25:30] scene of Dunedin in the late 1970s and early 1980s. Um, Bryn also had difficult experiences with Wellington's lesbian separate, lesbian separatist community in the late 1980s. Um, they were effectively kicked out after they, uh, had their, had a process of discovering their identity as an intersex person and then trying to talk to others in the community about it. Um, they, they viewed Bryn as essentially male bodied, even though the reality was a lot more [00:26:00] complex than that. Um, and then that was sort of enough for them to be like, we don't.. I don't want you here. No, just pretty horrible. Um, uh, Taylor, one of my narrators who worked in the public sector in the 1980s, um, tried to set up a gay, lesbian and bi support network. Um, the lesbians, quote, held a quiet vote with the gay men who weren't really that fussed and they kicked the bisexuals out and made it a gay and lesbian only support group. Taylor said that this hurt, as you might imagine. So again, perhaps unexpectedly, my [00:26:30] narrator's experiences of queer community were not uniform. They were complicated. Um, these.. Um, so, you know, that's not great. Um, however, the narrators that I worked with were much more positive about the interactions with younger queer people today. Oh, and this, this is also not to say, obviously, that, you know, their earlier experiences of a queer community were negative. Um, a lot of them were positive and, um, life affirming. But yeah, they were complex. Um, [00:27:00] so yes, younger queer people today, so.. So, Jules, born in the early 1980s, was only really able to, quote, um, process their own experience of gender, unquote, after listening to their daughter talk about her and her school friend's ideas about gender identity. Um, Kali came across the label non binary in 2017, in part thanks to their mahi supporting young people. How Atif feels like even though they are worlds apart from younger trans people, [00:27:30] they have found that when you, quote, when you actually go into some meaningful purpose for being together, supporting the same kind of causes, you just become whānau. Um, and I'll end on this quote from Jake, because it's really awesome. Um, the thing that makes me feel hopeful is seeing young people just be so playful with gender, you know. Just enjoying themselves and being able to change their mind every 10 seconds. All this stuff that seems to rile people up makes me feel so hopeful. I love that. I just think it's all about just trying to feel the breadth of our actual [00:28:00] physical and spiritual beings. So, yeah, I kind of just wanted to end on that how. For a lot of the people that I talk to, um, kind of sharing and ideas about trans and non binary identity with younger people was kind of a, a form of connection and like whakawhanaungatanga and relationship building. And um, so that is kind of, you know, you maybe kind of think of that as a form of chosen family in itself.[00:28:30] Um, particularly I think because. Uh, my narrators potentially felt a little bit alienated from some people their own age, who maybe are not as understanding about trans identity and non binary identity. Um, yeah, so I think that's. That's all I've got. Hmm.[00:29:00] Yeah. Uh, Kia ora. So, um, my name is Gareth and I've been running Pride NZ, uh, since about 2009. Uh, so I've been audio documenting, uh, uh, events and people around, mainly around the Wellington region, um, since that time. Uh, I, I thought. Um, tonight, I would really like to kind of distill, uh, this, uh, presentation into about six thoughts, um, that kind of speak about Pride NZ, but also, [00:29:30] uh, about some of the people I've met and some of the motivations, what motivates me. Um, so my first thought, uh, was, um, find the joy. And I really try to make a conscious effort every day to find joy in that particular day because, um, there are so many, uh, negative things that kind of come at you. Um, finding the joy is really important. And, uh, this is joyful. This is, um, Pai Kakariki Pride. Um, the world's shortest [00:30:00] pride parade, which is just over. Over that crossing, uh, which is really fantastic. Always have a cake. Um, and my second piece of joy is, uh, the first time when you go to a Pride event or be surrounded by queer people. And, um, this is example, the example is, uh, beer at the Wellington Pride Hekoi this year. My identity is such a big part of who I am and we experience.. There's so much sadness around how we're treated for that, [00:30:30] um, but today we can just experience this joy and be around people that are safe and that are kind and that, um, are really accepting and we can really feel that pride in who we are. So, they're coming towards us now, and it's looking amazing. There's so many different colors, and so many different people. Um, I'm seeing signs that say, We exist, get over it. And I'm seeing rainbow labor, and I'm seeing a lot of different, like, styles, and a lot [00:31:00] of different clothings. I'm seeing labor rights. for strippers. I'm seeing fired up stilettos. I'm seeing people cheering. There's a lot of cheering. I'm seeing disabled and proud Takatapui. I'm seeing, I'm seeing so much rainbows and so many happy people. Um. Yeah, we've got all different ages of people and all different types of people and it's looking really amazing. Um, we've got this gorgeous glitter signs coming towards us and some beautiful young [00:31:30] people. This is just absolutely gorgeous. Everyone looks so happy. I just, uh, yeah, you, you can't, um, replicate that kind of joy of being at a pride event for the first time and to actually be able to capture that and for BEAR to share that on the recording was really amazing. So the He Koi, um, ended up at Parliament and they raised, um, these flags. So there was the bisexual, intersex, pride progress, trans, and rainbow flags were being raised. One of the first times in [00:32:00] New Zealand that all those flags were raised, which was really amazing. It was amazing. Brings me on to my next thought, um, I only have, I have kind of, I don't run, I have parallel thoughts, they kind of come one after the other, um, which is celebrate rainbow leadership, and, uh, leadership can take many forms, and so it's individuals or groups like Te Whanau Whanau Tonight, the Glamourphones, Inside Out, uh, Gender Minorities Aotearoa, but also, um, we find leadership in politicians, and this is one of my favourite images, this [00:32:30] is, uh, MP Jan Logie, I was interviewing her, um, a few years ago, Um, which is really, um, it was a fantastic event. Um, we have been so blessed in the last parliamentary term with so many rainbow, out rainbow MPs. Uh, it has been amazing and I can't imagine that happening, um, anytime soon because quite a few of them are retiring. Um, it has been incredible to have those people at the seat of power and to be advocating [00:33:00] for our communities and to be representing our communities. Uh, this was when the, um, flags were flying and, uh, the audio is from Jangi Pride is a time of celebration and affirmation for people who identify as gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, intersex, akata ua.[00:33:30] And while we have come a long way as a country from when homosexuality and trans people were criminalised, we are still a long way from fully realising our human rights. [00:34:00] For many of us, Our moments of peace and our moments of celebration have been hard fought for. So our celebrations, in fact, are often acts of defiance as well as an expression of joy. And at times they are also So, or too often an act of mourning. So in that same speech, Jan Logie paid tribute to Donna DeMilo, who was, um, a Wellington icon and [00:34:30] had recently passed, uh, just before that speech was given. And this is a photo of Donna. And this brings me to my third thought, which was all about, uh, resilience and respect. Dana, like many growing up in the 1950s and sixties didn't have an easy life. And in this audio clip, Uh, she remembers what it was like in Wellington. If you're different, you don't go near a policeman because they're God unto themselves. You know, there's one here that used to arrest [00:35:00] me nearly every night of the week. You know, take me to the cells and make me dress and undress for every person that worked there. And then to make it his business, I'd fall asleep to wait till the next lot came on and he'd make me, wake me up and make me do it all over again. And there was nothing I could do about it. No matter how I protested, there was nothing I could do about it. He was God. You couldn't, if you, they'd, he'd say, um, get in the car, and I'd say, but I've done nothing wrong. He'd say, get in the car, I'd say I've done nothing [00:35:30] wrong. If you don't get in the car, I'll have you up for, for hampering a policeman in his line of duty. And he'd be abusing me, calling me a shirt lifter, which I didn't even know what it meant, a poo pusher. And calling me names, and does your mother know you're a fucking freak, and, and he'd push my face and, and push it and push it and push it into the window until I said fuck off or pig or something, he'd go, gotcha. And Arrest it, you know, that's what they called you, it. [00:36:00] Arrest the thing. So, Dana, like her contemporaries, Carmen Ruppe and Chrissie Witoku, um, teach us. Not only how to survive, but also to rise above and to actually make it a better day. Um, they offered up opportunities, particularly Chrissy and Carmen, for work. They gave us work and they gave us safe harbors. And we've got a lot to be thankful for, for Dana and Chrissy and [00:36:30] Georgina. My first, uh, my fourth. thought was there is hope for a better tomorrow and this is an image of St. Peter's on Willis Street and there's a lovely, um, rainbow flag and there's a flag flying as well. So hope isn't, uh, just about, uh, being in a religious context, um, but I wanted to highlight that because in the light of the, the, the, the current anti rainbow. Sentiments that are being expressed by [00:37:00] some faith communities in New Zealand. I think it's just appalling. And I wanted to point out that there actually are faith communities in Wellington that are very supportive and very inclusive. So, St. Peter's on Willis Street and St. Andrew's on the Terrace. And this is from 2019. Um, and it's the Glamophones who are, um, rehearsing in St. Andrew's. The audio in this clip is from[00:37:30] 2018. All human beings are valuable, simply because they are human. All human beings are worth loving, simply because they are human. Whether we understand an other or not, whether they are different, they are due respect and the expectation of life. All human beings are due unconditional love. All humankind, all orientations, all genders, [00:38:00] all people are welcome here. So, may it always be. Amen. In looking toward Transgender Day of Remembrance on Wednesday, we remember the transgender people whose lives have been lost to anti transgender violence this year and over many years. We hold in our hearts all those struggling with misunderstanding, [00:38:30] rejection, and abuse for being the way they are, the way they were created, for transitioning into the whole and beautiful selves they're meant to be. One of my favourite images of all time Is this one, uh, this is, uh, shot at Karori, and it's this kind of random time coming together of, uh, we've got the police, we've got a member of parliament, Jan Logie, uh, we've got an official [00:39:00] from the Russian embassy, and we've got Amanda Lahore, and we've got myself, and we're all gathered around in the centre of, uh, Karori Street. Um, it was actually a vigil protesting, uh, Russian persecution of rainbow communities in Chechnya. Uh, this coming together of communities to take action leads me into my fifth thought, which is, um, all about focusing on what binds us together. Sir?[00:39:30] Ah! What's your position here at the embassy? I'm not speak, good speak English. Germany speak? Yeah, good. You from? You from come out here? Here. Violin in Che. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. These are the homosexual on past in D Land. [00:40:00] On there. Vegans, more picture. Please. Why don't you join us? Yes, take Please come take us. Please. Please. Together, please. I won this here. Yes. I think that 100 men are in a [00:40:30] concentration camp in Russia. That's not funny. You're laughing because it's funny. Concentration camps are funny, right? I don't think so. My last, uh, thought I had for this presentation was to, uh, revel in the unexpected. And, uh, a great example of this is when I was interviewing, uh, Jackie Grant. Uh, Jackie Grant's on the, on the [00:41:00] right here. Uh, Jackie was up, uh, from West Coast, uh, at the end of last year. And, uh, in the 1960s, Jackie and Chrissie Wetuku had a restaurant, uh, just opposite Parliament. And, uh, they.. Made the first topless waitress restaurant in Wellington in the 1960s. Uh, it had previously, previously been another restaurant, and that restaurant owner had had a regular booking for a group of prominent religious leaders. So when, uh, Jackie and Chrissy took [00:41:30] over, they kept that booking. Um, and this is what happened. We decided to introduce the topless waitresses on that night when the round table had their thing because we thought If they're going to arrest us, they're going to arrest half of the leading clergy in Wellington That's probably not going to happen. So we rang up the TV people and the Radio station and they're all there behind us. Anyway, these poor guys didn't have a clue what [00:42:00] was about to happen So anyway, I'll call her Mary. Mary had a big tray, with, piled up with meals, and the meal was breast of chicken. We thought breast of chicken was going to be appropriate, and she was holding this tray. She had this tiny little miniskirt, nothing on top, except she had one breast in the middle of.. Those two plates and one breast in the middle of those two plates and up she dropped up the stairs and started putting their meals out with the [00:42:30] straightest face you've ever seen and these poor guys were just, and the, and the cameras and the radio people were right behind them asking them for comment. But we had lots of MPs sneak in. And we had no money when we were doing this either, so what, what used to happen was ten shillings to get in, and we opened at four o'clock, and by about four, five thirty, six o'clock we were finished, we were done, [00:43:00] um, because there were no office workers left in town. And what they used to do, they'd come in and, And they'd raincoat and pull their coats up and they'd come in and they'd pay their ten shillings and go upstairs and sit in a corner. And we only had two things on the menu, a steak or fish. So, someone would come in and they'd order, we loved it when they ordered steak, because they never ate it. So we could recycle a piece of steak about six times during the night. And shop shop next door and order a piece [00:43:30] of fish at half a cent. And I'd run up to the greengrocers just up the road and get a tomato and a lettuce. And we always had a bottle of mayonnaise. And we'd serve the meal, and the meals always looked quite good. But they'd take one bite, the fish was buggered. You couldn't recycle battered fish. But steak, you just trimmed her up and sent it up to the next one. There'd be another little bit out of it. It slides out of it, and you'd send it back up again.[00:44:00] Oh, that's great. Um, and I'll just end on, uh, two, two images which I, I think, uh, um, bring me lots of pride and joy. The first one, Civic Square, a couple months ago, uh, the largest rally for, in support of trans rights in New Zealand, 4, 000 plus people. In that um, Civic Square, which is just amazing, amazing feeling. Um, and the last one, which is the cake leaving. This is Pai Kakariki Pride, [00:44:30] and this is how you exit a pride parade. Thank you. Oh that was so fantastic, thank you guys, I learnt so much and lots of laughs as well, that was awesome. Um, so yeah, I'm gonna, uh, start with some, uh, questions now. I'll ask a couple questions and then if we've got time, uh, we'll open it up to you guys. So get thinking and remember, wait for the microphone. Um, so first I'd just like to know, and [00:45:00] maybe should we just go this way or something, I'd like to know what motivates you to, uh, do this mahi? I guess for me, like I, I'd done my honours dissertation a couple of years ago in, um, on a trans history topic and I was sort of thinking. You know, like where, where could I go from there? What hasn't been looked at yet? And I'm like, huh, I know that Will's doing really amazing stuff on trans history in New Zealand. Um, yeah, Will's thesis is pretty awesome. If anyone hasn't read, I [00:45:30] would highly recommend it. Um, but yeah, and so I was thinking like, is it possible? Could I, could I do a history thesis with the label non binary? Um, and it was really tricky to. Kind of think through that, um, and there is a little bit of archival stuff that I found that was interesting from like the early 20th century, so if anyone wants to talk to me about that, that's also something I feel passionate about, but um, yeah, so that was, it was just kind of like, could I do it, is it there, is it possible, [00:46:00] and that was the, yeah, that was the motivation for me. Uh, I think for me, I mean, I've been in the history heritage business for quite some time, um, but it, it was really an opportunity to bring my professional and personal life into one, in a way. Um, also I've, since I've been doing this work and with a real focus on queer history and heritage, I've become [00:46:30] quite militant about, about, um, the way that, um, I guess knowledge of our history validates our communities today, and it gives us a past, a whakapapa, um, which I think is really, it's immensely valuable when, you know, we're still having to justify our existence, um, unfortunately. Um, so in a way, I, I think of what I do as a bit of [00:47:00] an activist kind of history, and I'm really unapologetic about that. Um, You know, traditionally, you're supposed to be very objective when you're doing this sort of work. But I don't think it works for something like queer history when, you know, I know that you, um, Erin alluded to the fact that it's, you have to dig really deeply to find evidence of our people. Um, because the records are often silent and you need to be very clever and, um, [00:47:30] you need to take risks, I suppose, when you're doing this sort of work. Um, you know, I knew full well that Um, and the heritage space that we had a lot of places and buildings and so on that have these queer histories. I knew that they existed, but we just didn't tell them. Um, and it's a real, it's a, it's a process of delving really deeply. And also drawing on your own, your own knowledge of what queerness is. You're, you're having to.. Um, seize upon clues, I suppose. [00:48:00] Um, and you need to be very careful doing that, that you're not sort of anachronizing and overstating things. Um, but that brings me a lot of personal satisfaction and pleasure that, um, you know, that I'm uncovering these stories of, of our, of our ancestors. Um, I started doing these recordings because, um, I just wanted to find out about my place where, where I fit in. And, [00:48:30] um, I kind of, yeah, just found that I needed to ask people and listen to other people and just see where I kind of fit into society, I guess. Um, cause I, I didn't really have that kind of growing up. Um, I think now I'm more interested in leaving traces for the future. So that, um, in a hundred years time people will be able to hear Bear talking about the pride hikoi and, um, and Jackie talking about, you know, [00:49:00] the doodling. Um, yeah, I think for me that's just those traces that we were here because actually for a lot of queer people they don't necessarily have, um, may not have children to pass things down to. Uh, where do you leave those legacies? Thank you. Um, does anyone from the audience have a question? I think we've got time for a couple. Kia ora koutou. If all three of [00:49:30] you in your wildest dreams, best case scenario, um, what would you have done with the content that you've created and collected and disseminated? What would happen to it? What's the best way? If there were no limits, what's the best way that you can imagine that your, that content would be used? Uh, well, I would, I would love, um, for, um, creative people to [00:50:00] take the work that I do and turn it into stories in whatever medium they have. You know, there are so many fascinating stories in our queer history. And, You know, one, one concern for me in my work is that they are kind of buried in our heritage listings. The information is online for people to read, but how much of that, um, is actually read, I don't know. So, all of us are uncovering these amazing stories, and I would [00:50:30] just love to see, um, people today using it as content and sharing it in whatever way, um, works for them. That was my, that was my thought as well. Um, yeah, I feel like I kind of have like a, um, I quite like graphic design stuff, so I think my idea would be like a really nice sort of like, I don't know, infographic series. Well, not infographic, because it would have to.. [00:51:00] Yeah. Convey the story somehow, but something like that. Um, but it's also kind of interesting thinking about people's stories and where they end up and the fact that social media platforms are privately owned and you know, like if you're posting things to social media, what does that mean and like, how do you hold stories with respect while also making sure that they're accessible? Yeah. Pretty [00:51:30] tricky, but yeah, I'd love to, I don't think I have the Photoshop skills myself, but like, I would love something that looks really visually awesome and like, you know, illustrated really well. And yeah, I would love something like that. It'd be really cool. Thank you. Oh, look, I, I mean, I think we, we're a great representation that everyone comes to history in different ways and actually, um, makes use of the material in different ways and I would just say, look, I would, I would [00:52:00] love lots of people to use the material in lots of different ways and be creative. Uh, for instance, I was doing an interview the other day and somebody was saying that, um, Georgina Byers Prostitution Reform Act, Final speech has been turned into a play and who would have thought? Who would have thought? 30 years ago that the internet would be such a big thing or social media. What's going to happen in the next 30 years? Who knows? I Really favor the idea of democratizing queer [00:52:30] histories so that they are freely available licensed under creative commons or public domain so that people can Um, Respect the histories, but also make use and build on those histories, rather than histories being locked away in production houses or, um, by state archives. Thank you. And that's a good reminder to go to prideNZ. com to, to listen to more of the stories that, that Gareth had. Does anyone else have a question they'd like to ask? That's right, I have some pre [00:53:00] prepared ones. Um, what, um, what advice would you guys give to other people who want to do queer history? Should we start with you, Gareth, maybe? I think I've already answered that one. I'd written that down. Um, yeah, basically, uh, look, I would encourage everyone to um, go out and document in whatever way Uh, and document your histories. And also, um, make sure that state institutions, publicly funded [00:53:30] institutions are archiving our stories, that actually they have a, um, a responsibility to archive, you know, uh, a whole breadth of stories and let's make sure that our stories are in those archives. Um, and in terms of arch, in terms of like creating stuff, you know, whether it's audio recordings, images, wata. Uh, blogging, I, I think there's a whole variety of ways that you can actually represent queer experience, and I think the more the merrier. Um, I really hope [00:54:00] that, um, organizations that are contemporary today, particularly, you know, organizations of younger people, that, I know they're so busy doing their mahi, and, and that's all consuming, but just to think of recording your legacy, Um, you know, it's basically riffing off what you just said, Gareth, that, um, especially when so many of these groups exist in online spaces, like you've alluded to, too, um, how are you going to [00:54:30] record your activities for the future, because, you know, we as historians struggle now, um, using traditional archival sources to find our queer ancestors, um, and I would hate for that to be equally as difficult for future historians because, um, the, the activities are recorded in sort of ephemeral ways or, or thought is not given to, you know, archiving all your work and recording it in some kind of way.[00:55:00] Yeah, I guess the only thing I could think of, and this specifically applies to people who want to do oral history is you've got to make sure it's people centered. Um, I think that was. It's kind of a learning curve for me as someone who doesn't really feel like a people person, if that makes sense. Um, but yeah, it's like that kind of whakawhanaungatanga, like relationship building. It's, it's, um, it's very different from [00:55:30] going into an archive and reading a document. Like you're, yeah, yeah. Just a lot of very specific kind of work that goes into that. Very rewarding, but yeah, it's very different from other kinds of history. So yeah, that's just my thought on that Can we do one more question? Do we have time? Awesome. The last question I'd like to ask you all is what has been the favorite moment that you've had while doing this work? Should we start with Erin? [00:56:00] Yeah, I had definitely I I mean I had some amazing Chats, like I guess on and off the record with my interviewees about gender identity. And it was just like, as a non binary person myself, it was, that was pretty amazing. Um, but yeah, just like little things, like one of my narrators was like, Oh yeah, like I have a kind of interesting relationship to pronouns. Like I don't really have a fixed, like I kind of [00:56:30] use them different ones in different situations. And I was like, Oh, like that really makes sense to me. Yeah. And I guess like, that's, that's a really cool thing. Like you don't, again, when you're like looking in archives and reading books, they don't speak back to you. So that's the, that's the positive side of that is that, you know, you, you know, you get something that sounds transactional, but like, yeah, it's like a, it's a cool thing, um, to be able to like, [00:57:00] yeah, just build friendships and get to know people. Through your work. Yeah, that's cool. Um, well, I can't I can't go past talking to Georgina and Scotty and Mel at the end of 2021. Um, for me, that was just an amazing, affirming and highly entertaining experience. I learned so much. And it really [00:57:30] brought home to me the absolute Just the beautiful connections that we have in our queer communities. And I don't, I know that not all is rosy, at all. Um, and, you know, what you were talking about, Erin, before about some of your interviewees being rejected by lesbian communities. I find that extremely painful, um, as a lesbian. And it's something I really grapple with when I'm researching the history of In my particular [00:58:00] community, there is this really challenging aspect to it that is still present today. Um, so I just want to acknowledge that that is a reality. Um, but nevertheless, I just, I did really feel the love then, and I feel that when I'm reading, you know, reading Georgina's autobiography, reading Carmen's, um, another amazing work is Karen Wilton's Oral Histories. Um, what's the book called? My Body, My Business. [00:58:30] An amazing piece of work and I remember reading that and being struck by how difficult the lives of the people she interviewed were. But how generous and giving and kind they were. You know, that struck me, the manaakitanga, I guess, struck me hugely. It's really, really quite moving. Um, so.. And that, that really helps you to feel part of a community, and it's a community that stretches way back, and obviously I'm a historian, so I [00:59:00] value history a lot. But I really think it's important for our diverse queer communities to have knowledge of their history so that we feel less alone in this world. That, that's definitely how it's impacted upon me anyway. Uh, probably the, the, the most, um, amazing thing that's happened to me with the Pride NZ stuff, uh, was an email I got in 2020, um, so I'd been doing audio documentaries, uh, since the [00:59:30] 1990s, and, uh, back then, there was very little internet and there was certainly no streaming services, so I would do an audio documentary and send it out on CD, compact disc, around the world, um, and so I'd send them to the, the US and things like that. not thinking much of it. In 2020, I got an email from Stephen in Arkansas in the USA, and I think this speaks to just, um, the impacts you have that you don't realize you're having. Um, it's four paragraphs, not too long, just, I'll just read it. Um, I have to admit, [01:00:00] I got very emotional when I found the CDs you sent me in the 1990s. They represent many things to me. I received the CDs from you during a very trying time in my life. I was wrestling to fit into the life of a gay man in the American South. Life had been a rollercoaster for me for years, from bullying in high school, to death threats, to being thrown out of home by my family, and a loss of almost all of my friends to an attempt at suicide. My life was just starting to get on track when I received the CDs from you. I would listen to them on repeat [01:00:30] during my daily commute. The voices calmed me and made me feel like part of a larger community, albeit a community I didn't have access to in Arkansas. I laughed with them and I cried with them. They allowed me to stay in touch with a core part of me that I didn't want to deny anymore. So I guess what I'm trying to say is thank you. I know these audio files were probably just a small moment in your life, but for me, they were a beacon of hope.[01:01:00] Oh, thank you so much, uh, Gareth, Erin, and Kieran. Um, it's been really awesome to have you guys here, and thanks Caleb for organizing this. This concludes the local stories portion of the evening. To you. Yeah, I was just going to do a shout out, um, partly because the work that you're doing kind of links to something that we're trying to do, so, uh, City Gallery is part of a group of organizations called Experience Wellington, and one of the other places that I do some work is [01:01:30] Wellington Museum on the Waterfront. I've got a lovely office in the attic of that building, which is, you know, office in the attic of a museum, dream job. Um, Wellington Museum is the museum of Wellington stories, and we've got a whole lot of curators at that museum actively trying to expand our collection in a number of ways because it doesn't really reflect Wellington as we are. And we have a great project called Recollect, which is, we'll be trying to add things to our collection to kind of diversify our stories and make sure there's better representation. But we also have a couple of programmers based there who do incredible work. [01:02:00] Lani Magnificent, who is our DJ tonight, is one of our programmers at the museum. So she's come in to help me out. Um, as a DJ tonight, but also there's a bunch of programming there that really does focus on our communities. Uh, they've just launched a queer book club, which I think they had their first session a couple months back, so there's one coming up. So please keep an eye on Wellington Museum for some really interesting queer programming coming up, because I know it's one of Lani's passion projects. Um, and.. I'm working with them to kind of weave it through all of our five sites that we have, six, five, we anything's not to pop it and as a museum is [01:02:30] basically owls in Wellington, . That's how I always describe it to people. So we're trying to create this like, uh, annual yearlong queer program. So keep an eye on all the stuff we're doing. Um, and if you do have things that you need to find a home for or stories you wanna share, um, hit up Wellington Museum and we'll see if we can add it to our collection. Cause I would love to see it grow. Um, cuz we're kind of in the midst of a giant reach. of that building itself, so, um, you definitely will have some conversations about that. But, um, yeah, thank you for joining us. [01:03:00] Um, our next thing is, in the East Gallery, I'm gonna talk about our favorite beer in the gallery. Um, but, please join me in thanking everyone for joining us for Local Stories.

IRN: 3547
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/letters_to_lilburn_interviews.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004692
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093082
TITLE: Letters to Lilburn interviews
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Anna Cahill; Asha Cahill-Baird; Sonia Cahill; Stuart MacDiarmid
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: Anna Cahill; Asha Cahill-Baird; Douglas Lilburn; Douglas Lilburn (former house); Douglas MacDiarmid; Letters to Lilburn (book); MacDiarmid Arts Trust; Milk and Honey Cafe; Sonia Cahill; Stuart MacDiarmid
DATE: 14 November 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: Milk and Honey Cafe, 21 Kelburn Parade, Kelburn, Wellington
CONTEXT: Interviews with family members of painter Douglas MacDiarmid (1922-2020). The interviews were recorded at the book launch of Letters to Lilburn, held at the Milk and Honey Cafe, Victoria University of Wellington on 14 November 2022.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: We are at, um, Victoria University, Wellington today, um, on this, on this 100th birthday. Um, and we are here to launch a book. For Douglass's Centenary, and also to give him something of a last hurrah because when we were, uh, when he died in August, 2020, no one could go to his funeral. He, he died completely. Uh, he was buried completely un [00:00:30] applauded, I suppose you'd say. So we thought that this might be a good opportunity. Um, I'm his biographer. Also his niece. Uh, in 2018, I published his, um, his biography and then realized that there was more work to do, um, describing paintings in public collections in New Zealand, which is what I've been doing for the last three years. And, um, and finding a way of, um, representing Douglass for his [00:01:00] centenary. So that's what we're doing today. Um, and the paintings that you see on the walls in the cafe, Milk and Honey Cafe where the launches being held are from the local Victoria University collection and they're part of the McDermots Andary Art Trail. And, and we should say that the, the reason why, um, there couldn't have been a, a, a larger funeral service, um, at the time of Douglas's passing was, was cause of Covid. Yeah. Yes, that's exactly right. Um, we were unable to fly at the [00:01:30] time, so no member of family could go. And in fact, poor Patrick was so distraught, um, about Douglas dying, even though, even though it was expected, um, that no one went to his funeral, um, therefore we felt it was appropriate among his many followers, his friends, um, his family, that there'd be an occasion for them to, um, to pay their respects, um, and to celebrate his life and his work. That must have been incredibly hard at the time not to be able to go to the funeral. It was awful. I [00:02:00] felt as if I was, I had lost a limb or an, an arm, or a leg as, as a result of him dying and not to be able to go and give d give Patrick a hug, um, uh, say or do something for him. And, um, at the distance, I, I live in Australia almost as far away as New Zealand. And, um, I felt down about it for months. Um, and that, Um, it stilled my resolve to do something now. Um, and I'm very glad that we've been able to, [00:02:30] to pull this off. Now that Covid has abated somewhat, I'm sure it's gonna be an, an amazing, uh, amazing launch. Can you tell me, uh, about the, the, the book? What, what, what's in it? The book is a, it's a collation of extracts from letters and poems that Douglas Mc Diod. Wrote to Douglass Lilburn when I was researching the book. And then afterwards when I started transcribing Douglass's handwritten [00:03:00] letters, which are all in the Alexander Turnbull library. Um, I realized that Douglass wrote to hundreds of people, um, in the course of his life, but the most candid set of letters, the most raw content where he talked about what he was thinking, what he was feeling, how well or badly things were going, um, were not to his parents. Walter, his brother, my, my father, um, these were quite beautiful letters, but Doug Douglas Lilburn, who was his first great love and his lifelong friend thereafter, [00:03:30] and they wrote to one another from 1944 through to 2001. Um, and then Lilburn died within months of the last letter. And so Douglas Luborn saved all those letters. Douglass saved both. Douglass saved all their letters and gave them to the Alexander Turnbull. I think believing that one day they would be important. Um, and, uh, they, they had codicils on those letters to say that they couldn't be used in their [00:04:00] lifetimes. Um, and even now they can't be used without the permission of the chief librarian there. So they're somewhat restricted still. But, um, their view was that, um, they wanted their story told, otherwise they wouldn't have put them in the collection. So in their lifetime was their love known about among a certain small number of friends. Douglass never told his family, [00:04:30] his, his parents, or his brother, or any immediate family. This is Douglas mcd. Douglas mcd, sorry, Douglas mcd. Douglas mcd will call Douglas. Lilburn will call Lilburn. It's easier. Um, so Douglas mcd did never, never discussed his sexuality with his parents. They died not knowing he was bisexual, which is very sad. Um, and, um, he had reasons for that. He wanted to protect them basically from, from knowledge that would be, that would be a burden to them, they [00:05:00] felt. And also he didn't want to be pressured into trying to be not gay. Um, one of the rea main reasons he left New Zealand was simply because, um, his relationship with Douglas, with Douglas Lilburn was, Just was a burning passion for him. Um, Lilburn was a little bit more, um, circumspect because he was old, he was seven years older. Um, Douglass just wanted them to be, to be in a relationship. Um, he came back from overseas after three years away hoping that would happen. They were [00:05:30] talking in the letters about maybe setting up a country house somewhere. Um, they both had that desire, but strangely enough, it almost sends through the years that they were. Better people, better, better co communicators when by letter than they were actually in person, often in person. It got complicated, it got messy. They had to be careful in the beginning when he, uh, the early letters, Douglass wasn't allowed to sort of mention how, how much he was in love with Lilburn, but [00:06:00] they had an old exercise book that they would exchange between one and the other. With the heartfelt things they wanted to say. Um, and, uh, I found this all very p um, at the time they lived 700 meters apart and Douglass is as, as we say in the book, used to slip little letters and little poems under Lil Burn's door. Um, and, and it's, it's, it's beautiful. It's a beautiful story. Um, and it's a story that of its day is not generally told. Um, there's, to me, there's very little written, [00:06:30] um, in its day about. Um, people who were deeply in love, who happened to have the same, the same sex. So I, I felt it was a story that needed to be told. And to me, those particular letters were some of the more lyrical letters of, of Douglass's. He wrote different sorts of letters to everybody. He wrote to, he wrote to about a hundred people constantly. Um, but to Lil Burn, he was always open and honest. There was a great trust between them. They helped [00:07:00] one another creatively, they helped one another emotionally. Um, and that went on through their lives. They had arguments, they had fallings out. Lilburn was notoriously prickly. Um, he'd take umbrage at something that he thought that Douglass had said, and then there'd be, there'd be quite a series of letters. I, I read them in the Alexander Turnbull library, um, where, Lil Burn would be reefing off about something or other. And there's a set of, there's one particular set and, uh, he's, [00:07:30] he's put them in a folder and he's headed them a particularly bad stretch with Mc Diod. They, he never sent those letters. He wrote them, he saved them, but he didn't send them. And likewise, Douglass sometimes wrote to, um, to Lilburn in, in, in his diary. And those were his heartfelt thoughts that he was hoping would, would, would somehow by radar, I suppose, be transmitted. Um, but he couldn't put it on paper, so, so what is the year range that that's covered in the [00:08:00] book, in the letters? Um, the year range is 1944 to 2001. It's that whole, that whole period. Now, there were periods when there were, there were maybe a year would pass, uh, particularly when, um, when Lilburn was, um, was having one of his, he Hesi fits. Um, Douglass couldn't really understand a lot of those. And as they, as they got older and Lilburn got into electronic music and Douglass painted more abstract, um, art, they had, [00:08:30] uh, they agreed to disagree because, um, Douglas. Mc Diod adored Lil Burn's, classical work and his piano work. He hated the electronic music. Lil Burn just simply couldn't understand anything that was abstract and said it had no meaning for him. Oh, it's a, it's a mishmash of colors. That's very nice, but I don't want to own it, sort of thing. And one of the paintings on the wall in inside actually belonged to Lilburn and still hangs in the house that, [00:09:00] that, um, uh, musicians. Stay in. Um, and that was actually Douglas Lewin's home, uh, Escot Terrace. Escot Street. Yeah. Escot Terrace, yes. Yeah. So I'm, I'm just thinking for, for a long period of, of, of, of, of that time with, over the course of those letters, uh, a lot of the time, uh, Homosexual activity in New Zealand would've been illegal. So to actually document, um, homosexual feelings, um, is quite remarkable. That that was [00:09:30] one of the reasons I felt it was important to document that these letters were there for a purpose. Um, and I did discuss it with Douglas before he died, and his view was, hasn't enough been written about Lil Ben and myself? And I said, well, no, not really, because this body of letters is. Is what you are saying to the one to the other. And it, you've always said that you hope that you could, you could be an example to other people to follow their bliss, to follow their passion. Um, and this is a way that you can demonstrate, um, that this can happen. So, [00:10:00] um, I think. I think the letters are meant to be seen now. Um, my concern was that, that, that I'm not a gay person and that maybe it would be inappropriate for me to be, to be dealing with the letters and I hope I've done so sensitively. Um, I, I believe I have, um, I haven't attempted to rewrite anything. It's purely as they speak. For you, as one of the family members, what was it like actually reading those letters for the first time? I was [00:10:30] in tears sometimes, literally in tears. Some of the, some of the poetry Douglass wrote is, is just beautiful. Other parts of it are not so beautiful. Um, some of, some of it was to me just a sort of an experimental word play. And in fact, there was one poem I really liked, um, that had two words in it that I just, I ju I just, I just couldn't bring myself to include the poem cuz he, he had mentioned, um, something like, um, Ah, what was it? Something to do with, with, [00:11:00] with Cula something or others? And it was an awful couple of words and I thought, Ooh, this is just icky. We're not having that. So, um, to that extent, I did edit and really the only import of mine in the book except to choose letters that followed the narrative because douglass's letters actually follow. The course of their relationship, um, and the depth of it. Um, now, and then I've just put a [00:11:30] sentence in to describe, to, to give it some, some context. But apart from that, it's just the letters extracts as they flow, as they flow on. Originally I thought maybe I would do both sets of letters, but, um, um, I mean that would've been another whole set of permissions that I don't think, think would've been a problem. But the problem was, Um, I had, I had given myself a deadline of this, this particular year for Douglass's hundredth and, um, Lil Burn's letters are like cat scratchings.[00:12:00] They are so hard to read. Um, I even took advice from Lil Burn's biographer to ask, is there a keys or a trick to, to, to understanding what he's saying? And he went, oh no. You just have to, you just have to read them as best you ha can and you'll get. You'll get words now and then, but there'll be a lot missing. And, and to me there was too much missing. I had enough trouble with, with, with mc Diamond's letters because Douglass lapses into, into, into Latin and Greek, [00:12:30] uh, um, into, um, Italian, into, into, into French, um, into acrylic, what, depending on what he's talking about. And also a tremendous amount of, of, of quite in-depth material that related to music opera. Um, chamber music about, which I knew very little, so I've, I tried to keep just the relationship and, and, uh, keep it fairly, fairly, um, free of all the other people they talked [00:13:00] about. Cause otherwise it would've been a Bible instead of a manageable little book. Just finally, what do you think Douglass would've thought of, of, of this publication? I think he would've been proud of it. Um, his, his, his drawing is on the cover. Um, he was, he was very proud of the biography. Um, and he, he, he, he trusted me to do what I wanted to do, what I felt should be done. Um, he gave me free range, so I think he would've said, [00:13:30] Good on you. I think that this is a good thing to be doing now. Um, and he over his lifetime was a mentor to quite a number of, of conflicted individuals, and he always said that he hoped the example of his life and his work and his relationships would be, would be, um, of, of assistance to other people, um, and would help them see the way that they had to take. My name's Sonya Kahill. I first met Patrick and Douglas in Paris in July of [00:14:00] 2009. We'd been living in Beijing at the time and decided we were halfway to France. So we'd go for a summer holiday in Europe and I'd meet this, this uncle that, um, I'd heard about, that I hadn't seen since I was a young child. And I'd written to him and, and, you know, told him that we'd come and visit. And he was more than accommodating about that. I. I turned up in Paris with no real, um, thoughts as to what his marital status may be. And, uh, knocked on the door [00:14:30] and was met by a warm embrace by another man. And that was Patrick, his partner. And from there was quite an insightful, uh, journey through what became, um, us as a family understanding who Douglass was and his, his. Uh, life in Paris. Um, I was there with my children who at the time were two and five, and my two year old sat down and started [00:15:00] drawing with, with Douglass as the artist, and as a little two year old, she told him off. For, for drawing the wrong way. No, you don't do it like that. He was quite taken aback and sat back in his seat like, oh, okay. Alright. So he sat back and simply observed the, the children drawing and seemed quite taken with, with their childish antics and, and how they colored. So yeah, it was, it was quite, it was. Quite a unique insight into the lives [00:15:30] of Douglass and Patrick as they lived in Paris. And, um, we brought the stories back to my family and so began the journey that, that became the biography. So Escher as a two year old, do you remember, do you remember that encounter? I think I only remember it through the photos that we have of like my sister and I like sitting with Douglas and painting and drawing with him, and that's how I have remembered him. And then when mom has told me like, you know, that I had told him how to draw, [00:16:00] even though he was a pretty famous artist. It just makes me realize like, yep, that was definitely me. And it's interesting to see how his personality was like watching me draw and just sitting back and letting me take control of everything is definitely pretty cool. Yeah. So what, what was his personality? I. I, I thought he would be a very serious character, but he was a far more relaxed person, particularly around the children. I went back with them, um, a [00:16:30] couple of years later. I was at a wedding in, in the UK for a friend of mine in 2011, and so the girls were then four and seven and we went back and I was traveling with them on my own. So I was frustrated and cranky and, you know, went and visited and I was really, really short-tempered and he kind of was like, Ugh. Just don't worry about it, feeding them ice cream for lunch and whatever else. So he was very relaxed with the kids and he seemed to really enjoy the company of young people. I dunno if he had that much, um, sort of, I guess at that [00:17:00] age, you know, in your eighties and nineties, whether you have that much exposure to two younger children. But he certainly enjoyed. Watching, um, watching the girls interact and just watching them at play and being themselves. And I, I have vivid memories of them in his, in his formal lounge room, which was surrounded by his artwork, simply playing and drawing. And, um, he really enjoyed that and, and seemed to thrive on that youthful energy. And, and Ashley, can you remember any, any of that kind of, um, feeling? [00:17:30] I don't think I do because I was so young, but I think I can just tell now looking back by like the way that people talk about him and the way like he's presented in his books and just through his art. I can just tell that that is who he was. Do you remember his apartment? Only through the photos, but I do remember it was full of art and it was just a classic painter's apartment with all the paint, paintbrushes, canvases everywhere. Yeah. [00:18:00] What must it have been like to walk into that apartment for the very first time? Oh, it was a bit of a shock because I, I don't think I thought that through. I was quite naive about just, you know, what I was doing and the likes and, um, yeah, I, I simply knocked on the door. I remember looking at the letterbox and um, downstairs and it's, Said it said Mc, diod and Patrick. And I remember saying to my husband, oh, maybe that's a pseudonym because, you know, he's very famous. Maybe, maybe he needs, you know, some sort of disguise that, you know, [00:18:30] and it didn't even dawn on me then that there was another person in his life. Um, and then yeah, knocked on the door, warm embrace, and sitting in the lounge room looking at my husband and I both going, what if we walked into, um, And that was quite a privilege I think, in the sense that he, he reserved that for those who did go and visit him in Paris, it was not something that he necessarily shared with our family at least.[00:19:00] Um, it was a story that I recounted to my mother not long after, uh, cause she rang and said, oh, how was the visit? And she'd never been to Paris at the time. And I told her about it. She then shared that with her father, Douglass's brother, who replied that he felt there'd always been someone there and there had been for many, many years, but had never visited. Therefore, he'd never had the privilege of being, of having that, that, um, relationship shared with him, I think. Yeah. Do you think it was, [00:19:30] uh, like Douglass not necessarily wanting to share that with the family that were overseas or was it the family not wanting to know? I don't know that it wasn't, I think the family would have wanted to know. Uh, I think it was probably a time and place, you know, and, and the relationship had begun. I. Far earlier at a time when it may not have been quite as acceptable as it is now. There's actually a painting of Patrick in the MCD [00:20:00] art book by Dr. Nelly Fanney from 1977. So the relationship had been there a long, long time. Uh, perhaps in 1977. It may not have been as accepted in New Zealand as it is in 2022, for example. So I think he may have kept that. To himself for, for, you know, his own self preservation at, at some point in time. But by the time we met him in 2009, um, you know, his relationship was not necessarily a guarded secret.[00:20:30] So it was, it was quite a privilege to, to see that. And then how did the, the family relationship, um, continue after 2009? Because I mean, I, I guess that bridge has really been built, isn't it? Yeah, I think it was certainly strengthened because we actually knew who he was. Uh, our first visit in 2009 was followed by a number of visits from a number of family members who, um, then felt, uh, they could visit as well. So I guess, His cousin [00:21:00] Stuart McDermot had been traveling back and forth for a long time, and Stuart's children had visited him, so they had had the relationship. Um, us visiting, uh, with the kids seemed to rekindle some relationship with his direct family. His brother, unfortunately never got to go and visit, but knew and learned of, of, um, of his happiness. And then mum. Anna wrote the biography, which I think was something that Douglass had probably always hoped for, [00:21:30] particularly with the Family connection. And, um, yeah, it was able to be published before he passed away. So that was something that we were able to, to sort of honor in terms of his legacy. And we've set up the McDot Arts Trust to preserve that creative, um, legacy. And that's, that's, um, They're quite an honor and a privilege to be able to do for a family member. And it's also a privilege for us, for my children, for my, my, my sister, for her children to be able to do with their grandmother as well for another family member. [00:22:00] When you read the new publication of, of Douglass's letters to Douglas Lilburn, is there anything that, um, like, like. Just changed your view of Douglass or, or did you see him in a different light? Do you know? My mother hasn't, let me read it. Read it yet. So the book was, was published basically within the last couple of weeks. It's just come off the printing press. I haven't had the privilege of reading it yet. I'm really looking forward to it. Asher was involved [00:22:30] in quite a bit of the, um, pre-work in terms of, um, um, Anna had visited Alexander Turnbull Library a number of times and had scanned, no, actually it was Covid. So she had received huge PDF files of scanned letters and stuff that she then had transcribed. And so, um, Asher had. Done a lot of work separating the files and things like that. So Ash's very interested in reading it just in terms of, cuz she's been involved in that research phase. Um, but I'm really looking forward to actually being [00:23:00] able to read it because I haven't had the chance yet. She's kept it all to herself. What do you think Douglass would've made of tonight's launch? Tonight's celebration of his life. Look, I hope he's happy and I hope he's proud of us. It was really unfortunate that no one was able to attend his funeral. Uh, it was August 27, uh, 2020, so obviously no one was traveling at the time because of the pandemic. And, um, I hope we've done him proud. You know, we've, we've come together, we've, uh, [00:23:30] produced two books now and we've been able to, uh, promote his legacy and his artwork, and I hope New Zealand embraces it and celebrates it. My career was spent as a veterinarian, but I ended up working in the international, international field and my work used to take me to Paris regularly to, um, the headquarters of the World Organization for Animal Health. [00:24:00] And I realized that I have a, had a cousin in Paris and I should find this person. And so, um, Through letters we arranged to meet and um, I went around his place one evening to meet him and that was in about 2001 and the relationship started then I went to Paris two to four times a year from then until I retired in [00:24:30] 2018. And, um, I would go there for two weeks at a time. So I would often see Douglass on three occasions. Each visit. So we, we developed a, a, a, a deep friendship. And I also had the pleasure of watching his work develop and evolve. And I was always looking forward to what new paintings he had done. And he told me at the beginning of our relationship that, uh, [00:25:00] there was no such thing as good or bad or not. It was, uh, if I liked it, it was good. If I didn't like it, it didn't matter. He wanted my opinions, but he didn't care whether I liked it or not. He just wanted to talk about them and my opinion. So, uh, yeah, we had a good, a really nice relationship. I've never had a relationship like that with someone. Can you describe for me what Douglas's apartment was like in Paris?[00:25:30] I'd been at two other apartments, so I didn't have a great lot of things to compare it about. It was a nice, nice place with, um, the main sort of living room. Um, very high ceilings, I would say. Uh, a sort of 11 foot stud with, um, ornate plaster work, uh, ceiling and. A big fireplace. I never, I don't think it was ever used. His, [00:26:00] um, studio was small but good, natural lighting and tidy. Um, not a lot of space in there. Um, the hallway, L-shaped hallway was, Very narrow. Um, which in later life when Douglass had real problems with balance, uh, it was good for him because he, he reached the point where he couldn't walk without supporting [00:26:30] himself on something. Uh, so long, narrow hallway. And then there were two bedrooms. There was Patrick's bedroom, um, looking out onto the street. Um, nice tall, open windows on. You know, the, the three rooms that face the street had big, tall windows that opened out onto narrow little balcony things. Uh, Douglass's bedroom was at the back, a small [00:27:00] spartan and, uh, a window looking out into a light well, um, and then a small tight kitchen. Oh, and a bathroom. What was it like watching Douglass work? Um, I never saw Douglass applying paint or drawings, but what would happen would, because I was visiting frequently, I would, he would show me, this is a painting [00:27:30] I'm starting. Um, then I would see how it developed. And sometimes a painting would be done between, you know, I'd visit him sort of three days apart and a painting would. Happened, it would be done. Other paintings took, you know, months to evolve. I also saw him attempt, you know, make a painting and be dissatisfied with it. And the next [00:28:00] time I went, he'd done it again. Another iteration of it, I saw 2, 2, 2 of the paintings that I have are paintings that. I didn't like the first one I saw. I didn't like the second one. And then the third one was, wow, that's, that's really nice. I really like that. I shouldn't say nice because it doesn't matter. It's what I like or, or the viewer likes or doesn't like. In, in terms of the, the kind of wider family, what was painting something that [00:28:30] happened within the, the larger McDermott family? I don't believe so. No. Um, I actually had very little to do with, with relatives growing up. Um, I dunno why that was. Um, it wasn't until my, I was 18 when my mother died and my father took me on a, a road trip around the North Island meeting relatives for the first time. Um, so I've, I've had [00:29:00] very little to do with other, other mc diamonds and. Yeah, so Douglas was certainly the first, first one. I, apart from my father's brother, Hugh, um, Douglass was the first McDermot that I got to know. How, how did other family members react to Douglass's painting? Well, my father told me that, you know, they were pretty dreadful. Um, you know, you've got a cousin Douglas who. Makes these paintings, but they're awful. You know, they [00:29:30] don't look like a real picture. So when I first went to meet him, I was thinking, you know, this cousin lives here making, he makes a living out of painting rubbish. Um, how do I, how do you have a conversation? So, I mean, I just said to him, um, you, you're a painter. Um, what is it that you do and what are you striving to achieve? And, um, Was just the right thing to, you know, to open a [00:30:00] conversation. And what was your first impression when, when you saw some of his work? Oh, um, I thought my father was wrong. Um, I think I really like about a third of his paintings. Um, and I have, I have several at home of Douglass's paintings, which, Uh, all ones. Most of 'em are ones I cho I chose because I really like them. There's [00:30:30] one he did for me as a gift, which I don't really like. Um, when I first went into his apartment, he said Any painting that you see is for sale except the except one. There was a painting of this wife Shalin, which it was a beautiful painting. Um, but that was, Earmarked for someone. I dunno the fate of that, but, um, sometimes I would see a painting and think, oh, I really, really [00:31:00] like that one. But, um, if I, you know, by the time I visited again, it had got a red dot on it showing that it'd been bought by someone else. And when you say like, you liked the painting, what, what, what, what did the paintings, how did the painting speak to you? I just had a, an emotional reaction to it. And wh when I said to him, what, why, why, what is it you trying to do? And he says, I see [00:31:30] something that triggers an, uh, an emotional reaction in me and I want to try to put that down on canvas and trigger. A reaction in somebody seeing it, and it doesn't matter whether they are having the same reaction that I did. Um, the meaning of the painting is what the viewer sees in it. And, um, I mean, I, I have one which [00:32:00] is, um, it's called Al with a number after it. And it's, uh, it's bright. Reds, uh, oranges and yellows, clearly sort of sun blasted landscape. And in the foreground, you're looking at the back of a woman with long hair and in the middle distance is a silhouette of a man with [00:32:30] his hand on his hip because they're silhouettes and that hard light. Um, He's got his back towards her, I'm sure. And I said, when I brought this painting home, I said to my daughter, look at that. She has lost him. And my daughter said, no, no, no, no, dad, he has lost her. The painting was actually triggered by a black and white photograph, which [00:33:00] Anna showed me. The woman in the foreground is not a woman at all. It's the shadow of Patrick who was taking the black and white photograph, and because it was so hot, sunny there, Patrick had draped a towel over his head, which meant the shadow sort of was a figure, but. You know, and it's just plain black. But Douglass interpreted that as a, turned that into a woman dressed in black, [00:33:30] but with brown hair. And um, so the story from the painting is mine. My daughter has a different story. I dunno what Douglass's story was, but Anna's got the black and white photograph and it's Patrick Shadow. What has Douglass taught you? I've never, I've never been in a relationship with a person, um, [00:34:00] who was so interested in what I had to say. And, uh, it's not that I would sit there and lecture him. I mean, it was always ping pong back and forth. But, uh, yeah, I've never had a, I've never had a relationship like that with somebody, a talking conversational relationship. Yeah, it, it's, I, I won't, I won't go back to Paris again. [00:34:30] Um, because, you know, I find it hard to go there and him not be there. I used to think, um, one day, this will be the last time I walk up the street and there was the last time.

IRN: 3549
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/paul_diamond_downfall_the_destruction_of_charles_mackay.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004695
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093085
TITLE: Author Paul Diamond on his book Downfall: The Destruction of Charles Mackay
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Paul Diamond
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1920s; 2020s; Anna Rogers; Aotearoa New Zealand; Charles Mackay; Courage Day (15 November); Day of the Imprisoned Writer (15 November); Downfall: The Destruction of Charles Mackay (book); Heritage New Zealand Pouhere Taonga; James Barron; Massey University Press; Nicola Legat; Paul Diamond; Prue Langbein; Radio New Zealand; Rainbow List Project; Walter D'Arcy Cresswell; Wellington; Whanganui; auto-suggestion; gay; homosexual; homosexual monomania; hypnosis; internet; mayor; medicalisation; newspapers; pervert; queer; research; sissy; sodomite
DATE: 15 November 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: National Library of New Zealand, 70 Molesworth Street, Thorndon, Wellington
CONTEXT: An interview with author Paul Diamond, just before the launch of his book Downfall: The Destruction of Charles Mackay. The event took place at the National Library of New Zealand in Wellington, on 15 November 2022.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Paul Diamond, and today we're at the National Library at in Wellington in November 2022. And it's the 15th of November, which makes it Courage Day. That's right. And that is the new New Zealand New Zealand name for the International Day of Writers Freedom. And, um, they named it Courage Day in New Zealand after James Courage and his grandmother, Sarah. Courage, because of what had happened after the writing. Uh, [00:00:30] that happened to the books that they wrote today is also a very special day because you are launching your book Downfall. Yeah, I was really pleased when when the date that we worked out was going to be a good date for the launch was actually coincided with, um, Courage Day and yeah, So, um, I've done some other books. None of them have taken this long. This has actually taken 18 years, but, uh, it's it's a story that is in New Zealand. It's overseas. There's because it's about people who ended up in London and Berlin. So it was really important [00:01:00] to be able to try and research over there, which was really lucky to have the support to be able to do that and then pull all those threads together. I remember when this was just starting out. We were both working at Radio New Zealand 2000, 2001. That was a very different time. You know, the Internet was just in its kind of beginnings. The research, I mean, research must have changed so much in that time. Yeah, that would be That's my advantage, isn't it? From having taken so long because, you know, each day there's more digitised material and you're right. When I think back to that [00:01:30] time it was really different. Even radio was working quite differently then because our colleague at the time, Prue Labine, had heard about the story, I'd heard about the story. So Prue actually suggested doing, um, a radio programme which got commissioned, and we started trying to research. We went to and we discovered that the mayor of Wu, who this books about his daughter was still alive and not very happy about anyone doing anything about it, partly out of a sense of, um, protectiveness. Actually, Pru thought for her father Well, also then [00:02:00] she was only a child when this happened, and the original shooting, and this happened in 1920. So there was no one around that we could talk to who was an adult who could give us an adult perspective and also because this was something that got actively suppressed in, Um, it was really hard to find it, but we found lots of things in the archives in Wellington. And then I left. Radio New Zealand started working as a historian, and I had a boss, Bronwyn Daly, who said to me she was the chief historian at the Ministry for Culture and Heritage and she said, Don't try and solve this, but see where it, um [00:02:30] why don't you see where it leads and look at the effect it had on other gay men? Um, and that was a really good tip, because you start. I think that's part of the significance of the story and why it's important to remember it is the impact it had on gay men and queer people generally actually through the generations. Because was this was this one of the first times where the word homosexual was actually used in kind of a public say, like in a in a newspaper, apparently it was, and so the word was kind of around. But it was really in the medical [00:03:00] profession. So by saying when this man was accused of shooting someone which he had, But but blaming that on his, um, disorder, as it was known then of homosexual homosexuality, homosexual monomania, which and the evidence was a letter, a statement from his doctor and a specialist about treatment. So that's that's another reason this is an interesting story because it's about our medical history and he'd actually been treated in 1914. So that's six years, [00:03:30] six years before the shooting. Um, the treatment was probably a thing called auto suggestion, which we still actually use and possibly hypnosis. But I don't think that word apparently wasn't used much. I mean, other words were used like pervert and sissy and sodomy and bugger and all those sort of words which have different kind of context because they're used in the law and they're used about to about to describe sexual acts. This is sort of this idea of the medical term being used starting to be used as an identity [00:04:00] term. I mean, this might not be how he'd see it if he was here now and talking about it. But but the term he used the term, his lawyers used the term in court. And as far as we know, that's the first time that it happened in doing all this, uh, research and investigation. How have people reacted to you Kind of uncovering this history? Um, it's become easier over time to talk about this. Um, I did find a [00:04:30] when we and I first went there. People who were from either didn't know about it or didn't want to talk about it. But people who weren't from Gan couldn't stop talking about it because they found it so fascinating. Um, I think it's it's gonna be interesting going up to for the second launch of this book later in the week to see how you know it's great. They'll have had a week or so to look at the book, and I know they've all been really looking forward to seeing it, because it it's kind of their story in some ways. So I'm quite curious to see that I think it's become a lot easier, [00:05:00] and there's a man up there. James Barron, who was a counsel until recently, um, moved to with his husband, and he's been really pushing for the sites associated with the story to be registered on the Rainbow list. And I think that's incredible. In 100 years, you know, a man gets blackmailed for his sexuality, and then 100 years later, he's a mover and shaker in and and pushing for things just like Charles Mackay did actually, So it's kind of incredible. The the The book is also a part of your life, because 18 years [00:05:30] is a long time in somebody's life to to dedicate to this what has driven you. Why why are you so passionate about this story? Um, I guess it's just a sense of curiosity. You know, I, I think I've I always find I'm curious about other gay lives and particularly other gay lives over time. Perhaps that's to do with when it's something that's a little bit hidden and not necessarily talked about. Your sources of information about the norms are not always, um, available. It's different now in in our time. [00:06:00] Um, it's It's been a struggle at times this, uh, because I guess because I couldn't quite work out what to do with it and and And what sort of book it was gonna be. And it was really only thanks to the interest from publishers. Um, Nicola from me, sort of who she's. We've been in touch about this for a while, and so she'd been a longtime supporter of this, and she kind of picked it up and and helped me get it. Get it home with the help of an amazing editor, um, Anna Rogers in Christchurch, who helped [00:06:30] me do a structural edit. And then she did the copy edit and an as a historian as well and a researcher. So she really tested me on the sort of details. And I'm pleased about that because you'll see in the book there's a lot of footnotes where I've sort of put my evidence. And so that's for people behind me to kind of check the path I trod and and make their own assessment of whether I'd interpreted the sources right, because I'm sure more will emerge. Actually, Do you think after researching for so long that you are close [00:07:00] to Charles? Like like can you Can you see him? Um, biographies are like that. Where by the end of it, you do end up with a sense of the person you end up thinking. So what was this person like? I think he'd have been amazing company. Um, I think he was hugely energetic, and it's just fascinating to think of him, you know, landing in London, landing in Berlin and reinventing himself. And actually the review, you know, that's just appeared in the Oral History Journal. Made a point that hadn't occurred to me. [00:07:30] Is that the real? Another reason it was such a tragedy that he got shot after any sort of five or six months in Berlin is that he really was kind of on the point of reinvention. You know, he really had kind of gone through this process of rehabilitating himself, establishing himself as a journalist and a language teacher, but was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Just finally, what would you like to say to Charles if you met him? That it's an interesting question to think. What would I say to [00:08:00] him? Um, I think I get the feeling he's the kind of person who would he'd tell me What? Um, what he was I just He seems to have been a bit of a polymath, I guess. Of course, Yeah. We'd really want to know what happened in that office in in 1920. Because, as far as I can tell, he never talked about that. So we've only relied on a strange, unsigned statement from Darcy Creswell. So we've had to kind of guess working backwards from that. I guess that's probably the main thing. And where is your diary? [00:08:30] Because I know I know he had one, but I don't know what happened to it.

IRN: 3584
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/new_zealand_aids_memorial_quilt_display_2023_karakia_and_interviews.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004705
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093095
TITLE: Karakia and interviews - New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt Display
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Bena Jackson; Catherine Healy; Clare O'Leary; Michael Bancroft; Reuben Love; Stephanie Gibson; Te Herekiekie Haerehuka Herewini; Welby Ings
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; 2010s; 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bena Jackson; Burnett Foundation Aotearoa; COVID-19 (coronavirus); Catherine Healy; Chanel Hati; Clare O'Leary; Clive Aspin; Georgina Beyer; HIV / AIDS; HIV / AIDS; HIV stigma; HIV testing and prevention; Hetty Rodenburg; Jane Bruning; Jason Myers; Joe Rich; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Mary Potter Hospice; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; NZAF Ā whina Centre; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; National People Living with AIDS Union; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; Peter Wells; Positive Speakers Bureau; Rachael Le Mesurier; Reuben Love; Russell Wells; Stephanie Gibson; Te Herekiekie Haerehuka Herewini; Tom O'Donoghue; Tīwhanawhana; W. B. Yeats; Welby Ings; Wellington; Wellington Pride Festival; Wellington Pride Festival (2023); bisexual; condoms; funeral; gay; grief; health; homophobia; homosexual law reform; intergenerational; lesbian; poetry; police; sex work; tangi; taonga; transgender
DATE: 10 March 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa, 55 Cable Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: Karakia and interviews from before and after the official presentations at the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt display. The event was held at the Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa on 10 March 2023. A special thanks to the organisers, participants and attendees for allowing this to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So I'm te I do work here as a head of repatriation and sometimes I'm caught upon to, um, undertake Q Care, um, for special events. Um, so this is a special event and, um, for me the purpose of a Q Care is to acknowledge, um, those people that had prepared the pathway forward for this exhibition. Um, and so it's acknowledging their talents, the gifts that they've inherited from their una, their ancestors, um, but also [00:00:30] acknowledging, um, for this particular event, the, the memory of the loved ones that have passed away that are sort of, um, in, embedded in the, in the, in the quilts. Um, so for this, um, I will leave the, we will walk past, um, the three, um, quilts. Um, and then we'll go to the final one at the end. Um, but we'll face towards this way, the, the other quilts so that we embrace [00:01:00] all of the quilts and then we'll finish with, um, Called and then I'll do a little explanation further around the, at 1120. So, um, if anyone wants to say anything after the, I'll leave that up to you, but please keep it short because the main COPA is at, um, 1130. Um, but you're most welcome to express, um, something after the this time as well.[00:01:30] [00:02:00] [00:02:30] [00:03:00] [00:03:30] [00:04:00] [00:04:30] [00:05:00] Um,[00:05:30] Um, although my words will be short, um, I just wanted to acknowledge the people that have, um, prepared this exhibition today. And I also wanted to acknowledge the people that that made the quilts in memory of their loved ones. Um, the lo their loved ones that passed away over the [00:06:00] last 40 years, maybe 50 years. And, um, we were a different country 50 years ago from what we are today. Um, and so 50 years ago it would've been much of a challenge to actually, um, prepare these quilts. Um, when people that had the illness, uh, or died from, um, HIV age related illnesses, um, we are con [00:06:30] considered in a different category. Um, and my personal knowledge is some parts of our community, um, the appearance, um, of the loved ones that passed away. On certain occasions didn't accept the whanau member back into, into their family. And I know on certain occasions, um, when Tupapaku the deceased went, went to have a ton at them. Mara, the [00:07:00] Mara did not accept them back either. So I just want to acknowledge the memory that's contained in these, these quilts, um, of the children. Of the woman and of the man that had passed away. So Nore, oh, immigrant heavens. Um, I was kaki guardian of the quilts from 2003 to 2018. [00:07:30] When we decided back in 2011 that these quilts needed to be gifted somewhere, it was to Papa and specifically Stephanie. That Rachel Zu from the AIDS Foundation and then Jason Myers and now Joe Rich have all supported [00:08:00] the work and the love of the Roha that's gone into these. And the gifting was made in, I think it was the 3rd of May, 2012. And I was here. Then as we brought the quilts onto the Marai and Stephanie and her team, then were part of that. So it's a very special link. I don't want to say too much cuz I am speaking, but as we [00:08:30] stand just here, I conducted my first funeral. As a celebrant in 1989, and at that funeral the chap said, bloody, good job, Mike. Will you do mine? Russell Wells, the third one down [00:09:00] there was the second funeral I ever took way back in. 1989 and a hundred more followed, and I would just like to acknowledge all of those here in your presence. You, you are the living. That these people expressed in their lives,[00:09:30] and as I have done so many times, a simple blessing.[00:10:00] [00:10:30] [00:11:00] Five G. Thank you, uh, Kira, uh, cor Claire Aho. I'm a lesbian activist, I guess, and I worked at the fitness center during the nineties and went on to work with, uh, New Zealand Prostitutes Collective on safer sex and decriminalization issues. I'm a documentary filmmaker and, and part of the wonderful thing about the.[00:11:30] New Zealand a's Memorial Quilt Project is that it's story and pictures and it's a memorial to the many lives lived and lost in our community. And I think one of the glorious things about it was that, um, during the nineties we would take these quilts to schools and talk to 'em about grief and loss and homophobia and being out and being gay and visible and. For [00:12:00] lots of kids who were, and young people who were very isolated. It was a, an amazing kind of innovation. And also I think it made the kids realize how they could express themselves in different ways, not just in words, but in pictures and in texture and all sorts of things. And each picture here tells the story of a beautiful life and of the memory. But it also tells a story sometimes of, uh, people whose [00:12:30] families did not accept them. They didn't want their full names on the quilts because it would reflect on the family and at the time also, some families would not. Come to the funerals of gay people who had died of aids. Um, I've also worked for Mary Potter Hospice for 10 years and during the early days of hiv, they were the first hospice to accept a patient with hiv cuz there was a lot of fear about at the time. And that has [00:13:00] changed incredibly, um, over these years. But it's only due to the activism and the bravery of these early men who, who. Were HIV positive, like Tom o Donahue who set up the, um, people living with hiv aids union and worked tirelessly even till his very last days on, um, making p the person behind the illness visible. And that was very inspiring. [00:13:30] I was going to say that it's so hard to imagine what it must have been like in those early days where we didn't even know what HIV was. Yeah. But of course, we've had Covid, and Covid was, I guess, a taster in terms of, um, a virus coming out that we just didn't know what it was and the fear and the stigma around that. That's right. And I think that, um, actually Clive Aspen, who is a public health researcher, he, he's written a paper about that and, and the correlation between [00:14:00] how the public responded to Covid as opposed to HIV and aids, and the fact that Covid affected everybody from the get go. Meant that it actually got addressed. Whereas in the early days when HIV was sought to just affect gay men, it wasn't even taken seriously until it people realized it was gonna affect all of the community. And that was part of the homophobia at the time and the, the kind of, um, [00:14:30] The feeling that gay people didn't matter. But I think the bravery of those early activists really changed the face of HIV and aids And in New Zealand, um, Catherine Hilly and the Prostitutes Collective, they really worked tirelessly. With, um, Tom O'Donohue and others, the Burnett Foundation as well, which was incredibly significant, setting up a hospice to really, um, make visible [00:15:00] the people behind the illness and also to address homophobia and our. Society. I guess one of the other differences with, um, COVID and, and HIV is that the HIV response was very much a community led response. That's right. And, uh, it had to be because the, the, the powers that be weren't actually doing anything, but, but it's the power of community and the voices in that community that were brave enough to come forward and say, I have H I V, who [00:15:30] made that difference? And then all the people that got around them. To support the COPPA and the care that they needed. And the, um, the grief workshops. Dotty, Dr. Heti Rodenburg who'd worked with, um, Kubler Ross, set up a lot of workshops for the gay community and their families of addressing people who were dying and dying very young deaths. And that's the difference too, um, that was happening with HIV and aids, is that, Men and then later [00:16:00] women, um, who had HIV and aids. There was not the medication that's available now, which is fantastic now, but in those early days, there was no treatment. And so young men, young, beautiful men, died very young. And that was a big shock. And actually the other thing that happened, um, which you can see in the stories in, in this court project, is that people came home after. Being overseas when they became unwell and their families were faced with [00:16:30] not only them coming out as gay, but also dying at the same time. And so some families really embraced their loved ones. Not all families or not all family members perhaps. Um, and that's, that comes out in some of these stories too, which is tragic and beautiful at the same time. The thing that really strikes me about a lot of these quilt panels is the age in which people passed away and we're talking kind of 30 to 40 years old. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And also, um, there's a beautiful [00:17:00] panel of, um, Russell Wells who was, um, a wonderful, um, film, gay filmmaker Peter Wells brother. Um, and Peter also made a beautiful film, which was the first real film to be made about the impact of, um, losing a loved one with hiv aids. And so, You know, this is one layer of the activism at the time, but there was a lot of other activism that happened through the New Zealand AIDS Foundation and their affiliated, uh, agencies and [00:17:30] networks, and I think New Zealand eventually got it together in terms of the public health response, and that's what it became, a public health issue, and that's what it is now as well. But, um, I think there's still a long way to go in terms of how we address grieving in our community. And it, and it, this is part of that, um, embracing the people that we've lost and honoring the people now that we are working with, who are also [00:18:00] dying. So, um, it's a beautiful tribute at Memorial. And I look forward to the rest of the day. You were, you were saying that you were working at the Athena Center in the, in the 1990s, and I reflect back on that time, and we had things like homosexual law reform in 85, 86, where there was a lot, a lot of bigoted viewpoints and, and AIDS was being brought into that kind of anti homosexual law reform. What, what was the, what was the feeling like working at the Athena Center at the time because of, and, [00:18:30] and, and of course there weren't. Um, Um, really highly successful treatments for hiv. Were there? No, and, uh, we set up, um, with, um, the offender center in Wellington, a, a women's support group as well, and that had counselors and, um, community workers involved. And often it would be partners of men who were, um, who. We're not necessarily out gay, but we're living with women still, but having sex with [00:19:00] men. So they were bisexual and um, a lot of, you know, a lot of things came out of the closet as it were, and also children, um, daughters and mothers. And so the, the support network of the woman, um, ended up also becoming, um, Women who had hiv. So some of the women's, the partners of the men did become HIV positive. Not all. Um, but that was a different kind of, um, [00:19:30] need in a way. And, um, that led to a lot of stories being told, um, books being written and that kind of thing. And I think it just, I. The fact that there was no active treatment meant that you just had to actually work with what you had. And, um, the palliative approach of, of working with people with living till they die basically. And so, and that is still true today of anyone who's dying, but, but [00:20:00] that, um, the treatment that has now become available is, means that HIV is actually. A long term condition rather than an acute, um, life threatening disorder. So that is transformational for people who are diagnosed. But there's still a need, obviously for messaging around safe sex practice to prevent it in the first place. Cause you don't want to get it and you don't want to. [00:20:30] Um, Take it lightly that it, that it's, you know, it's treatable, therefore don't worry about it because I think it's still really important not to be complacent. So I guess that's, that difference meant that you were dealing with the person who was dying, but also a community who was losing a whole generation of friends, lovers, family members. And even now when you think about aging in the queer community. There's a big gap in our aging [00:21:00] demograph because of hiv aids, and that's another kind of grief, a community shared grief, which is why these quilts and today is so important. I was struck when Michael was, uh, Michael Bancroft was talking earlier, saying that he had conducted over a hundred aids related funerals and just the resonance of all of those deaths and, and like, how do you, how do you even. Deal with it. It must have some long-term [00:21:30] effects psychologically on people. Yes. And I think what it had, has also done is actually transform how we do funerals. And that was what was so like a liberating or celebratory nature of funerals. Going from being a, you know, the, the traditional formal, uh, funeral in a church or a. Or a hall or something to being a real celebration of that person's life and bringing in music and art and performance even, you know? Um, so I think [00:22:00] that changed the nature of funerals as, as it was then and today. I think a funeral can be anything, which is really, um, a wonderful kind of fallout from it. Um, but I think the long term. Uh, grief of the community is a bit like a kind of a post-traumatic shock effect or from, you know, groups of people who have been through a war or similar kind of thing that it may not always be acknowledged, but there is a gap in our [00:22:30] community and, and days like today recognize that and, and I think it. It was really important for, for owning it and honoring the people who have passed away, um, and wondering what would've been like if they were still here, you know, uh, Kilda. My name is be Jackson. I'm a public program specialist here at Tupper. Um, we're an kuda on level four of Tup today for the display of, um, four blocks of the New Zealand [00:23:00] AIDS Memorial Quilts UhMing, 40 years since. The first cases were reported in Alua Kiara. I'm Ruben Love. Um, I'm a volunteer with Lagan, so Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand, AKA Alro. Um, yeah, and I've collaborated with Ben Jackson from Papapa, um, to bring this display here. Yep. Can you talk about the collaboration? How, how has that been between the two institutions? Um, we were actually approached by this event [00:23:30] has been initiated by Ruben, um, coming from National Librarian, from gans, um, just to, to find out where the quilts were and, and to ask whether a display was. Possible. And so, um, the it duration of the event that has come together today has kind of been, um, based on a, a range of, you know, uh, parameters that we were meeting and time space, um, the actual scale of the quilts, um, and their care. Uh, so that's how we kind of. Came to the [00:24:00] conclusion of displaying four of them, and, and Ruben has been, um, amazing at reaching out to the group of speakers that we have today as well. So, Ruben, why was it important to, to have this event, to mark this occasion? Mm-hmm. Um, I think one was, I wanted to mark the, the 40 years since. The first reported cases of hiv aids in Al Tiera, um, because it's so easy to forget how recent that history was, um, and that we still [00:24:30] have, we have a whole missing generation of people who've passed on and all of that marga that. Was not passed on to me. Um, and that, that community that I often feel is, is still missing. Is still, yeah. Um, so I wanted to use this opportunity as a time to remember, um, those who have passed, you know, those who are present in the quilt. Um, and also those who are not present in the quilts. Um, [00:25:00] yeah, yeah. You mentioned that there are some, uh, speakers today. Can you tell me who's speaking? Bill Logan, who was, um, an early hiv aids activist in Wellington. Um, and as well be s who's just directed the film punch. Um, and who actually has a panel, um, for his lover? Ian? Um, Yeah. Then there's Chanel Hatti from Una. Um, she's been involved with the, uh, New Zealand Prostitutes Collective and really [00:25:30] wanted to bring tuna into this event. She's spoken before at AIDS Memorial events. Um, Yeah. Also got, um, Michael Bancroft, who is the guardian of the quilt for many years, um, before and, and since it has been held by Tippa and we have Jane running from positive women too, and two speakers from the Positive Speakers Bureau. What has it been like meeting all these extraordinary people? Because these, these community members have been, um, through a lot, they've seen [00:26:00] a lot. Like what is it like meeting and talking to them? Um, for me, the overwhelming thing has been the generosity of all the speakers, um, from, you know, uh, out of the blue email from, from Ruben or I, and just getting the, the warmest and most positive and enthusiastic responses to the event today. And I think really just emphasizing the importance of, of having events like this and of. Of, um, showing the quilts and of people being able to see them because, um, for, you know, they have been in [00:26:30] storage largely since they've been at Tepa. And, um, and yeah, just, just the enthusiasm to, to come here and, and generosity, to take part. Um, it's, yeah, amazing the messages. Um, from some of the speakers saying how honored they felt to be a part of this kopa and to be brought here into the space with the quilts, um, was really moving, really, really moving. So they've all been warm, um, like just the longest [00:27:00] emails about, you know, just really open with their histories, with the quilt and their, um, Yeah. Yeah, it was, it was a really, really emotional experience. Um, and just having a corridor with him in the cafe before, um, was like amazing how much knowledge just in that moment was passed between generations and between each other. Um, and I think there's still not, I mean, we're getting better, but there's still not enough opportunities. To [00:27:30] bring groups of, you know, generations together, um, and sit down and cord it all. Yeah. Is this the first time you've seen the quilts out? Physically? I've seen one or two blocks, um, and back of house visits at Tippa when they, you know, there's only really enough space to one fold, one or two. So seeing, uh, four of them altogether is pretty special. And yesterday or the day before, um, I went up to Torrey Street and saw where they all sit. Together in storage. That was pretty special to see them in their carefully packaged, um, [00:28:00] wraps and, you know, all carefully waiting there and, and to see the process of them being moved down to, to, to be displayed today. Uh, yep. The first time I've seen them in person, um, I've seen them online and the reproductions are great. Did you, you took the photos, eh? Um, so the, the detail's beautiful, but it's, it's. It's such a different experience, um, seeing them in person and how 3D they are, how careful the stitching is. [00:28:30] Um, yeah, that, so it's, it's incredible. Um, and I hope one day we get all of the blocks displayed. Um, but yeah. Yeah, because it feels. Yeah, a selection of of four is a really intimate experience, and you can talk to some of the, the particular panels in detail, um, but it still feels like a part of the whanau is missing. Yeah. But, um, yeah, one day, one day, [00:29:00] A And just finally, when you see the, the blocks displayed here today, uh, what's the feeling you get? It's quite overwhelming, I think, and, and as well, reading the, reading the information that's held about each of the blocks and finding out each story about each person and about the people that made it and. And, um, the people who have held it, there's, there's so many people, um, who are invested in the, in the process and, and represented by, and remembered by the quilt [00:29:30] that it's, um, it really, it really genuinely is a tear jerker, you know, like, I think, um, that, that's a terrible way to put it. But I, I just, I mean, like, there's, there's nothing quite so, um, hard hitting that I've seen in the collection here at Tippa that just instantly kind of, um, Brings a tear to eye. Really? Yeah. Um, for me, especially after Covid 19, where there, there were these easy comparisons [00:30:00] between the pandemic and hiv aids pandemic, um, was having this opportunity to display the quilts as kind of bringing that. Back to earth and saying, you know, the, yeah, these are, these are real people and this is not, these aren't just, you know, shapes and colors on, on fabric. These are the people through their whanau, through their friends lovers, uh, Actually present in the, the white is, is present in the quilt. Um, [00:30:30] which is why even in the wording around the event using, uh, the word koga, um, is about connecting in with those people again. Um, yeah. Mm-hmm. Kiara, my name is Stephanie Gibson. I'm a history curator here at Puffer. In Wellington and we are in one of our big exhibition spaces where we have laid out four of the New Zealand AIDS Memorial quilt today for an event. And can you tell me about the quilt we're standing [00:31:00] in front of? So we're in front of a block that features eight panels, which each represent one person who passed from aids, and I think they date from about 1989 to 1991. And each panel is named. Sometimes it's just a first name. Sometimes it's a full name with their birth and death dates. It's a real mix, and some are painted, some are stitched, some are [00:31:30] collaged. Some are very fine embroidery. So it's a real mix of imagery and textile art. Why was it important for Tepa to have this event today? So, 2023 marks the 40th anniversary of the first person in New Zealand to contract aids or hiv aids. So we are marking that 40th anniversary. It's also pride here in Wellington Pride Week. Uh, also [00:32:00] it's a wonderful opportunity to work in partnership with Ligans to have this event. Um, there's a lot of. Interest and love for the quilt, and it's wonderful to be able to bring it out when we can, when we feel that, that people really want to see it, and we know that they get a lot of meaning from it. The quilts have been with, uh, with the guardianship of Tappa for, for just over 10 years now. I can't believe though, that that 10 years has, has really [00:32:30] flown by. C Can you tell me, um, some of the, uh, the times the quilts have been on display in that time? So we've brought out one or two quilt blocks whenever people have asked us to, and people might range from school groups. Uh, there's a particular school that comes every few years that's studying homosexual law reform, and they, we always bring out one of the blocks for them, um, people that, uh, may be doing an art project. So we've had artists and, uh, people from lgbtq I [00:33:00] plus communities, people from health communities. We've had. All sorts of interest and people want to spend some time with a block or two, and then we'll bring them out specially for them. And we find it's a pretty incredible experience for everybody, for staff, and for our visitors. So when school groups see these quilts from 30, 40 years ago, uh, how do they react? Um, they're pretty shocked actually. I, it always never ceases to amaze me how emotional people are, no matter what age, what their [00:33:30] background, who they are, what their identity is. They're always almost stunned into silence. Uh, cuz they're faced with the materialization of grief and it's very powerful and it, the feeling never fades no matter how many times you see the quilt blocks. It always has that effect, and that was part of, its what I, what you might call soft activism, right from the very beginning. It was an activist statement to make a panel to memorialize and remember somebody whose life had been cut short by [00:34:00] aids. Very powerful statement to make. The, the grief and love that are put into the, the, the, the creation of the quilts, but also I guess the grief and love, uh, because these quilts have been all around the country. They've been onto to marae and to schools. And they've had such a life, haven't they? Yeah. Well, they had an incredible life before they came to Juppa. They might be out in the grass one day and a church hall the next. As you say. So they had a very diverse life. For many years. They would travel up and down the country [00:34:30] and hundreds of thousands of people saw them. But there did come a time where, um, new treatments came in and people no longer, um, sub fat dying from aids, they could actually live with hiv and less people died and less people were memorialized in this way. And it was time for the. Quilt to come somewhere safe and be permanently looked after in a, in a really safe environment. I mean, it is stunning that the quilt is in the national, you know, the National Museum of [00:35:00] Tiara, because there are numerous quilts around the world that don't have that. Um, That, that, that national kind of, uh, care, I guess. Um, why was it important for, to papa to become the guardian of the quilt? Because this is a nationally significant story. It was a nationally significant, um, epidemic or pandemic. Many, many people were affected. We needed to honor that history and this was an [00:35:30] incredible opportunity to collect an object that lives on. It actually is Tonga. It is a living Tonga, and we can actually care for and share it, and it's meaning continues to grow. That's the most powerful object you can collect. So even if it didn't, even, even if it didn't have that spirit about it, it would still be an important. National historical story to collect and tell in perpetuity to remind people, especially what we've just been through with Covid. [00:36:00] You know, these lessons, they're, they're, they're always relevant. So we have, I think in the collection there's around about 16 blocks, is that correct? Are are there other aspects of, uh, the AIDS Memorial Quilt that Papa has? So we have the archive of the quilt. Uh, I think it's about four meters, linear meters of paperwork and photographs of the quilt on display around the country. Uh, the stories in behind each panel are quite an incredible record. [00:36:30] Just for you personally, when you are looking at these, uh, quilt blocks, what, what, what does it make you feel and what's the feeling you get from it? I always feel sort of sad, happy. It's a really strange feeling. I feel it every time. It's sort of, I feel like I'm in the presence of greatness, but also of deep sorrow. So it's that feeling that all the love and care that was poured into these quilt blocks and panels, it gives that a chance for that person's life just to live on like a whisper [00:37:00] to people that they've never met many years later, like myself. But it just reminds me, they look at, they look out for me at the quilt and they remind me, you know, you've got to take care of yourself. You've got to be respectful and live life to the full. I love that idea of just a whisper. We were here. Yeah, absolutely. It's about visibility. Present material presence is really important and I think sometimes we forget it as we go online, increasingly go online. But a [00:37:30] physical, tangible reminder or memorial of a life well lived, or a life that ended in, you know, great sadness for many people, it's an incredibly powerful thing to be in front of. There's something that happens when you're with a physical memorial as opposed to a digital one. I do believe it's quite a different synergy. It is well worth experiencing. I'm here at the display of the AIDS [00:38:00] quilts, which many of, um, these quilts bring to life bring to my mind the people I knew who died. In the, predominantly in the 1990s, 19 late 1980s, 1990s era, people like Tom o Donahue, whom I worked very closely with, and our fledgling days as, as organizations who were [00:38:30] responding to HIV and aids, working with our peers and our communities, you know, on issues like stigma and discrimination, basic things like. Getting condoms out to sex workers who were criminalized at the time. Um, you know, just, it, it, it's so evocative to be here, to see these quilts, to hear these stories, to have people tap you on the elbow and say, do you remember when we sat on the National Council on AIDS in 1988 [00:39:00] together, just really evocative. And am I right in thinking that, uh, NZ PC kind of grew out of that need for kind of, um, safer sex practices, aids awareness? We came together as an organization in that era. We had other issues that were complimentary to the concerns about hiv. We were obviously concerned about. Been arrested by the police, um, having our condoms [00:39:30] counted, um, in, in practice, you know, and used as circumstantial evidence at a, at a time when we were combating HIV and trying to generate awareness, um, of our own struggles, you know, and that criminalized environment, but also building educative. Um, support amongst those of us in our communities, sex worker communities. So, so did it even get down to that level where police [00:40:00] would count the number of condoms you actually had on person? Well, that was the fair. And people could recollect photographs being taken, and we'd come out of our massage parlors with our condoms wrapped up in tissues and put them into rubbish bags that had to be carried off site quite quickly to avoid having them hanging around just in case. The police would come in and they did come in undercover pretending to [00:40:30] be our clients and this was the kind of evidence that they would be looking for. It just seems such a, a different country and, and I guess New Zealand was a different country back in the eighties. Yeah. You know, these were rich times as well in terms of bringing communities together that necessarily. Needed to be together. You know, we were perceived as being the ones at risk. The, you know, we were perceived as being the [00:41:00] vectors of transmission. Um, but in truth, I think we were the leaders, you know, we were the champions of public health and we brought all these sorts of issues to the fore, and we created legislation that supported the right. Of all sorts and benefited the nation as a whole. When you look around today at these blocks from the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt, what, what, what feelings do you have? [00:41:30] Well, good feelings, you know, you know, when I, I look at Tom Madonna, who's quilt and I, I just reflect on the great times that we had and you know, we would be meeting with ministers of the Crown and talking about our issues. Passionately. I mean, we knew we were going to lose good friends to HIV and aids and, but you know, I look at Tom's quilt, for example, and there's the telephone. We had the landline that we shared as an organization and, you know, [00:42:00] the wine glasses, lots of wine was drunk. We, you know, the, the, the, um, little dogs that he walked and just so, um, rich with memories. But I mean, they should be here with us today in the flesh. That wasn't possible at the time. You know, anyone living with HIV today will tell you that they look forward to a long life. Um, so there were poignant times through that, through that era when the quilts meant so. As Chanel [00:42:30] said today, you know, she said, you know, they, they captured our love. Chanel also mentioned today about the passing of Georgina Bayer, and uh, I'm wondering, do, do you have any, um, kind of the first memories of, of meeting Georgina? Well, Georgina was, uh, certainly you could never meet Georgina. Once and forget. And so we spent many times with Georgina, both on a, um, you know, sitting on [00:43:00] podium sharing podiums and platforms and speaking about different issues as well as, you know, the hard grafting of creating. Prostitution law reform and private times as well. You know, just down times and Georgina up until, you know, recent times, you know, like she's always been alongside our community would respond if we asked her to come to events and share [00:43:30] with us. You know, the sex worker Pride Day for instance, you know, was something that Georgina. Um, spent time with us a couple of years ago and yeah, it's, it's been very sad and somewhat shocking to realize that someone like Georgina has passed. Um, but we'll carry her. With our memories. Can you describe her personality? Oh, she was, she was quite monstrous on [00:44:00] occasions and she was, you know, she was outrageous and strong and, you know, also, um, empathetic sec. Considered unpredictable. What do you think Georgina's legacy will be? Gosh, don't be afraid. You know, like I think she, she had had [00:44:30] to really come out. In so many different ways. I mean, she was forced out as well in terms of her sex work, um, related activities. She was not comfortable in that space. Um, she was very angry about, um, having, being a sex worker, I think, you know, so she was enriched with so many different experiences that benefit us all.[00:45:00] She articulated extremely well those experiences and why they shouldn't happen to other people. You know, that good law, good supportive response in terms of human rights would, um, you know, is a way forward and yeah, I think, uh, her legacy is multifaceted like Georgina.[00:45:30] So it's uh, 10th of March, 2023, and there's just been an event which is looking at, um, commemorating the, um, the AIDS as has played out in New Zealand. And central to that has been a display of some of the quilts that have been produced. So there was, uh, there's been, um, a, uh, an event in at Papa, the National Museum, and it's been attended by, um, community. And it's been the community [00:46:00] of our nation really. And um, and we've heard from speakers, some who, who were intimately involved with the period when the first of the quilts were made and other people who are living with HIV V at the moment talking about the experiences of the current time. And right before us is Ian's quilt. Yeah. Quite hard to look at even after this time. The um, It's so time has damaged [00:46:30] it so much, you know? Um, and yet his face is still perfectly pure, perfectly preserved. And that's because I, I painted it, I just painted his portrait with dry brush with no underpainting. It's straight onto the fabric. So the Calico is the warmth behind the, the face. But the rest of it, I'd put undercoat on, and of course it's cracked, but uh, yeah, it's strange to see something so beautiful. I'd forgotten how beautiful it was. Yeah, I [00:47:00] sounds, sounds a little egotistical. I don't mean it like that. I mean, it just, it's beautiful in your heart to see somebody who you love. And they're still the same way you painted them. You were speaking earlier on stage to the, um, the, the people in the, um, the room, in the audience. What is, how easy or how hard is that for you to, to get up there and, and, and talk about such personal things? I'm shy. My, my nature [00:47:30] is that I'm shy. Um, and I am, I worry, I get worried. It's hard for me to keep my emotions under control. If I'm talking about something I love, I, if I'm talking about something political, it's fine. But where it's personal, it's quite hard. I. So, um, I think that's why I was a bit faulting that I, I sometimes had to stop a wee bit, but it was hugely, uh, comforting to hear other people going through the same thing. And then I thought, so people trust this world, this [00:48:00] world of this moment and here enough to be able to do that. And um, so, um, you know, Ian was very strong, very strong person. Um, and, uh, I, I thought for a moment, oh, well I wonder what you'd make of this now, all these years later, and here, I mean, we talked back then about marrying as as a protest. Of course, you wouldn't have been allowed to do it and just go. You know, fuck people married, a lot of these people in this room are married now, mate. [00:48:30] You know? So it was, um, it's, it's funny because I think the quilt, I guess because it's one of the few that's pictorial, that the presence of the past is immediate there in the moment that it froze and it's here right now. So it's quite hard. When I was looking at it up on the, the quilt on the screen when it was projected, it was quite confronting, you know, because there's no symbolism to act as an intermediary. It's just very present. And how [00:49:00] significant to now be cared for by the National Museum? Who would've thought it, you know, like really, um, you, you, you realize we were pariahs. There's no other word for it. We were fucking pariahs and, um, We didn't even have a, we weren't even, we weren't allowed to say the names of what had killed us at our funerals. You know, we weren't allowed to do those things. It just, [00:49:30] and to have the National Museum now doing this, and you go, it's a little bit like marriage in the future. From back then, but then I stand here now and I go and what might 40 years be? Might we be in a world where you don't have to come out? Might might being queer be the same as being left-handed. I. You know, and so we hope into the future, I guess, from it, and it's, it's wonderful to see so many people behind this organizing here from new [00:50:00] generations coming through. And you just go, that's, um, we owe them a great debt too. The debt is not one way with an older, the younger generation being a debtor to an older generation, it's a community being indebted to itself through all its generations. As they make stuff and enable stuff, you recited, uh, an incredibly moving, um, Paul. [00:50:30] It, uh, it's, oh dear. I'm gonna do I start telling you to, um, it's one of the few poems that can break my heart. You know, it's such, so, such a beautiful, beautiful thing. It's such a beautiful modest, um, I, I mean, I, I, I can get, it's funny how something so small can break you, you know? So it's nothing as majestic as a, you know, [00:51:00] 90 minute feature film or, or an opera. It's a few lines that talk about cloth. And love and what will you give in the name of love? And uh, and it's really strange cuz I look at the quilt and you can't read it anymore. It's not discernible, it's, it's cracked. And to know that it was, it's, it is actually underneath there still, you know? Yeah. Yeah, it's, are you able to recite it now? [00:51:30] Yeah. So it's, um, it's Yates and it's, um, it's got another name now, but its original name was Adair, wishes for the Cloths of Heaven and, and a was a, the god of death. And fire and I, that's beautiful. Cause it was spirit and, and also death. And uh, I always thought it was about the quilt. I thought the quilts was, it, it fitted, it said, um, had I the heavens and embroidered [00:52:00] cloth and wrought with gold and silver, light, the blue and the dim. And the dark cloths of night and light and half light, I would spread the cloths under your feet. But I being poor, I have only my dreams and I have spread my dreams under your feet tread softly because he tread on my dreams.[00:52:30] .

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093100
TITLE: Rally for Trans acceptance and reproductive rights
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VOICES: Adaire Hannah; Alice Simpson; Benjamin Aulakh; Bill Logan; Elle Brocherie; Hannah Blake; Kerryn Pollock; Leliel Trethowen; Mx. Well; Pippa Sanderson; Richa Sharma; Tiaki Sharp; Tristan-Cordelia
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 2020s; Action Zealandia; Adaire Hannah; Alice Simpson; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Australia; Benjamin Aulakh; Bill Logan; Brian Tamaki; COVID-19 anti mandate protest; Christchurch terror attack (2019); Civic Square / Te Ngākau; David Gendall; Destiny Church; Elle Brocherie; Fired Up Stilettos; Georgina Beyer; Hamilton; Hannah Blake; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); India; International Bolshevik Tendency; Islam; Islamophobia; Jeff Whittington; Kerryn Pollock; Leliel Trethowen; Lesbian Action for Visbility Aotearoa (LAVA); Manatū Hauora Ministry of Health; Marama Davidson; Marxism; Mein Kampf (book); Melbourne; Michael Wood; Muslims; Mx. Well; Māori Wardens; National Socialist Network (NSN); Nazism; Neo-Nazism; New Zealand Council of Trade Unions (CTU); Palmerston North; Pauline Hanson; Peter Ellis; Pippa Sanderson; Posie Parker; Pōneke Anti-Fascist Coalition; Queer Endurance / Defiance; Richa Sharma; Salvation Army; Sex Worker Exclusionary Radical Feminist (SWERF); Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington; Te Whatu Ora Health (public health); Tiaki Sharp; Tommy Robinson; Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); Tristan-Cordelia; United Kingdom; Wellington; Wellington High School; abortion; activism; alt-right; anti-abortion; bathrooms; bigotry; chant; church; communism; far-right politics; fascism; fear; feminism; free speech; gay; gender; gender affirming healthcare; gender dysphoria; gender identity; hate; hate group; hate speech; health rights; homophobia; homosexual law reform; hope; love; meat works; mental health; non-binary; oppression; partition of India; protest; public toilet; queer; queer joy; reproductive rights; revolution; sex work; sexual abuse; signs; solidarity; straight; stripper rights; striptease; testosterone (T); trans; trans joy; trans man; trans woman; transgender; transphobia; transphobic violence; unionist; unions; women's liberation movement; women's rights; women's space; worker's rights
DATE: 26 March 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Civic Square / Te Ngākau, Civic Square/Te Ngākau, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the rally held on Sunday 26 March 2023 in Civic Square, Wellington. Originally the rally was to oppose a planned rally by Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull (a. k. a. Posie Parker) in the same space. However after large-scale opposition to her event in Auckland the day before, Parker left New Zealand immediately.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm Lily Ultra. I'm a trans woman living, living in Nui Art Tara. I'm here with Q E D and Poky Antifascist Coalition. We are here to run a trans rights and reproductive rights rally. Originally we were planning to counter-protest Posy Parks rally, but since she's not coming, we're just gonna have a great big, joyous celebration of trans rights and women's rights. Have a great big queer old party, and I saw online that you are wanting this to be the biggest rally in New [00:00:30] Zealand's history yet Yes, the more the merrier. We've got a lot. I, while Posy not coming as excellent, we do still have a lot of issues that need working on in New Zealand, so everyone that wants to be involved come on down and have fun. When you saw that event in Auckland, uh, yesterday, online and on tv, what did you think? I was really impressed to see how large a crowd was there and how well restrained they were. Um, what do you expect when you get a crowd that big, that angry in one place? [00:01:00] And yeah, we're just glad Poey Parker has left the country. Would you have any words to say to Poey, given that she's not here today? Fuck off and stay fucked off. You do not speak for all women. I think Auckland made that very clear. What, what do you, do you have any, um, comments say in terms of the state's response? So things like Michael Wood, uh, allowing her to come into New Zealand and, and also, uh, justice Del who, uh, didn't stop her coming in the, uh, or didn't stop her speaking.[00:01:30] I think that represents cowardice on the face of immigration New Zealand, it's very clear that her speech posed a threat to the public. However, it also demonstrates the power of queer people and allies working in solidarity to do what the government did not have the balls to do. How many people are you expecting here today? We don't have a completely firm grip on the numbers, but we're expecting thousands over 2000 easily. And. When you think about that and you [00:02:00] think about the, the such a positive response for rainbow trans rights in Wellington, how does that make you feel? It's just awesome, and that's one of the many things that makes me feel real joy in being a trans woman. Uh, so I'm Hannah Blake or ex fund feminists from Twitter. Uh, we are in the bridge area of Wellington. I'm sorry, I'm from Palmy. And, um, we are here to support trans rights and stand up against hate. So did you travel down specifically from Palmerston for this? [00:02:30] Yeah, I sure did. So why was it important for you to be here today? Well, I think it's really important, uh, to show people that actually our country is inclusive and we don't accept bigotry or hatred here. So, uh, this is in response to the Poy Parker visit, which was, um, called off yesterday in Auckland. Um, I, I, I wasn't there and I saw the footage online, but, um, can you describe what it was like? I mean, if you'd seen the footage? Yeah. Like you have only seen the footage. Um, but honestly I saw a [00:03:00] whole bunch of people there to celebrate honestly, community joy and to show people who hold exclusion views that they're not welcome. Uh, given that Posy is not here today, who are supposed to be, uh, speaking to a different, uh, group here in Civic Square, is there anything that you would want to say to Posy? There's nothing I would like to say to Poey in particular. I would actually prefer to address the people who hold views like Poy does in our Tero and say that they're not acceptable and why does society [00:03:30] won't stand for it. What about, do you have anything to say to people like, say Michael Woods, who, who uh, agreed that she should come into New Zealand? I. I don't know the ins and outs of parliamentary process. I do think from what I read about the judicial decision, that he could have made a better decision. And I hope that Ireland takes, um, takes a look at our example and goes, actually we won't let her in. Cuz I think that's what he should have [00:04:00] decided. What's the feeling being in Palmerston North about this whole this, this whole thing with Posy Parker? Look, uh, I don't, can't speak for all of Palmy from, but the people that I've talked to, the members of the public that, uh, commented on my rainbow atti here have generally been very supportive. Okay. I, I'm Bill, bill Logan, and I'm here, uh, right at the beginning of a demonstration in favor of t transgender rights. Uh, and that's, uh, in the [00:04:30] city square in, in, in Wellington. Uh, and it had been called for by, um, posy Parker, who's a anti-trans, nasty sort of person. But she's not showing apparently. No, I have a feeling she's on a plane or she might have even got off the plane in, in the UK back there. Uh, because yesterday in Auckland there was some, uh, quite, uh, heated scenes in the, in the park. Yeah, I mean, if you're going to do, say the [00:05:00] kinds of things that Posy Parker says, you've got to expect that the people who are most affected are going to feel very, very strongly about it. And she's not a savory character. She's been a associated with, uh, with fascist. She might not be a fascist personally, but she certainly give said, approving things about fascists. She certainly, uh, refused to reject the support of fascists. Um, this is a, a nasty person. [00:05:30] You've been an activist for, uh, many decades now, and you were right at the forefront of homosexual law reform in 85 and 86. When you see protests like yesterday or, or speaking engagement where poy kind of just rocks people up, I mean, what do you think? Well, it's interesting. The issues seem to have moved on a little. Um, and perhaps things that we did 30, 40 years ago have created a climate in which, uh, it's possible to take [00:06:00] on issues, which would've been impossible back then. And it, so that's good. And it's also nice to see young people get a sense of their power and their capacity to change their world. Um, yeah. So in some ways it's quite gratifying, but it's also worrying because it, it shows how, uh, the reforms and the progress we've made, uh, is so fragile and reversible. Given that Posey is not here today, is there anything that you would want to say to her? I [00:06:30] don't have anything at all to say to Poey Parker, what about the, uh, the, the institutions, the state mechanisms that allowed Poey into New Zealand? Do you have any comment about, say Michael Wood or Justice Kendall? Not really. Uh, I don't think that it makes any sense for us to depend on the state to deal with our problems. Uh, I think that we have got to deal with the opponents, that we have ourselves with our own power. And I think it's good when we can [00:07:00] do that for ourselves rather than, uh, uh, depending on the patronage of Big Brother. Uh, yeah, not my way. My name's Amundi. I, you know, go to university. I work in the city and I just think that the rhetoric that this woman is spewing is. Egregious and irresponsible and so harmful, and I don't want anyone to think that I'd ever be okay with anyone saying anything like that in my city. Yeah. Did you see, uh, the footage from last night [00:07:30] on TV or on the internet? Yeah, I did. Yeah, I saw it, yeah. Online quite a bit. Yeah. And, and what did you feel. Um, I mean, I felt a lot of pride. I think that the community up in Auckland did a great job of showing what, um, you know, what our community thinks. I think that tfs, like Posy Parker and all these others, they love to trade in fear and to present themselves as a silent majority. But what we've shown in Auckland and hopefully in Wellington today is that the, what the real majority thinks, and which is that we love our trans van, [00:08:00] given that Poy can't be here today or is not here today. I mean, she could be, but she's not. Thank God. Um, is, is there anything that you would like to say to her? Yeah, well, I think that she calls herself a feminist and says that she represents women, but really what she's talking about is reducing the idea of womanhood right down to our sort of reproductive capability, which is, I would think, the antithesis of feminism at all. So yeah, I tell her to fuck off. So I'm a communication specialist and I live here in Wellington, and the main reason I'm here is that there's just no room for any [00:08:30] kind of discrimination of any kind. I mean, I'm an introvert. I don't have a lot to do with most people, but the one thing I will stand up for and I will protest about is everybody has a right to decide how they live their lives. And I've never had or seen any trans person causing anybody else any issues or any trouble. But growing up in the uk, the kinds of people who do cause trouble are people like Poy Parker, who think that they've got a right to go around, identify with members of the alt-right, Nazis and white supremacists, and think that they. Can come here and tell people how they should live their [00:09:00] lives, when actually, you know, that kind of to intolerance and hatred has no place in this country and it's not welcome when you see Posy Parker and in response to her, um, both in Australia and New Zealand. Um, and what, what goes through your mind? Look, I think unfortunately our government had the opportunity, you know, the minister had the discretion to stand up and say, we're not gonna let her in. Look, you know, you look at her tweets, um, promoting people like Tommy Robinson and that kind of Islamophobia, you know, marching through [00:09:30] Melbourne with Nazis. We know what she stands for. We know who she is and we know what she's about. That's really, really clear. So the minister had all of the ammunition he needed to be able to say, actually we're not gonna let a dangerous Nazi trans phobe into the country like that. He chose not to. So unfortunately, as is the case, a lot of the time it's up to ordinary New Zealand just to stand up and go, no, that's not okay. Posy Parker says she stands for women. We'll look at all the women yesterday who were there saying actually she doesn't stand for them. She doesn't stand for women. She stands for hatred and bigotry and transphobia and white [00:10:00] supremacy, and that has no place here. So Poey was due to give her an event here today in Wellington, but is no longer, uh, here. I think she's actually back in the uk. Uh, is there anything you'd like to say to Poey? Don't come back. Don't ever come back here again. You know, like she said on Twitter, New Zealand is the most dangerous place I've ever seen. Well, look at this protest today. We've got people of all genders, all creeds, all colors, happy together, united. Your kind of hatred. It's clear from this gathering here today and yesterday. Your kind of [00:10:30] hatred is not welcome here. So if you think New Zealand's the most dangerous country you've ever been to, okay, well that's fine. You are wrong. But don't come back here. You stay in the uk, you keep your hatred overseas. We don't need you to come back here again. Hi, I am El Shui. I'm a member of Queer Endurance Defiance. We are standing on the steps above Civic Square, uh, where we are holding a valley for trans acceptance and reproductive rights today on Sunday, the 26th of March. Can you just paint a picture for me of, of what you can see?[00:11:00] Yeah. So, um, it's about 1:00 PM uh, lovely day, maybe, uh, Hans or so people standing around at the moment, were expecting a lot more, but, um, the Valley is not scheduled to start for half an hour. There is music, people dancing, holding banners and flags. Um, I would say a very, um, celebratory atmosphere right now. So today follows, um, quite heated confrontations in Auckland yesterday. Did you see that online and, and what, what, what do you think of that? Yeah, we've been, um, [00:11:30] following that online, um, I guess I would really, I would really like to stress that, um, obviously the event in Auckland yesterday was in response to, um, uh, UK activist anti trans rights campaigner, anti woman's rights campaigner with links to the far right. Um, Kelly j Keen, aka Poy Parker. Um, the narrative that. She and her group, um, [00:12:00] like to spin is that they have, uh, just huge support around the world that, uh, the trans rights movement is some kind of fringe thing, silencing women's voices, what we have seen in Auckland yesterday, and what we will see here today is that is not true. Uh, Kelly j Keenan's speaking event drew about, uh, 70 attendees from what we heard. Um, many of them were representatives of the local faul, right? There were fascists present. Meanwhile, uh, the pro Trans rights, pro woman's rights, [00:12:30] Side, which organized in Auckland drew a crowd of thousands. And that is really what I would like to stress, that thousands of Aucklands showed up on the day to stand for queer rights, trans rights, and women's rights. When you saw that footage online, how did it make you feel? So proud. Very proud of, um, of our comrad Up in Auckland. Yeah. Yep. And so today, posy was supposed to speak here in Wellington. She's not here, she's actually left the country. Uh, is there anything you you'd like to say to Poey? Um, I can't think of much to be honest. Good [00:13:00] riddance, maybe. Um, hope you enjoyed your day. Hope you, um, uh, enjoyed some nice tomato soup. Yeah. So today was supposed to be in response to that, uh, that, that, that rally, but it's, it's turned into something different, hasn't it? Yeah. Um, it will be a different event here today from what we planned. Uh, we had been, uh, expecting to oppose, uh, Kelly j Keen's planned speaking event in Wellington, but Auckland did that so well. We don't need to. So we will be [00:13:30] having a celebration, uh, of that win and a valley, uh, for trans rights for women's rights, uh, in New Zealand, which are by no means one and by no means secure. So yeah, we will be celebrating our wins and starting to fight for more. Um, I'm Nim, I'm from the Wellington region as well, and we are here in Wellington to support our trans community and support women's abortion rights. Um, just spread the love for some [00:14:00] particularly nasty folks who have come to New Zealand to spread words that we do not agree with. And you've, you've got some, um, signs today. What, what do the signs say? Um, j trans writer, human rights and support your sisters, not just your sisters. Sisters being c i s t e r S. So why was it important for you to be here today? Um, my partner is actually transgender. I've been with her since the beginning of her journey, and I think it is so, so important to be able to show support. These people [00:14:30] deserve to be able to go about their lives without being affected by nasty opinions or views. There were some nasty opinions and views that I saw on TV and on the internet last night. It was pretty, pretty ghastly. What did, did you see him and what did you think? Yeah, I saw some pretty nasty stuff from the, from the protests. I am glad that she has left. Uh, I'm so excited for that. Go New Zealand. We do not want that here, uh, because Poey can't be here today. Um, is there [00:15:00] anything that you would say to her if you had the chance? We don't welcome your views here. Uh, I'm Z and I'm at the counter protest for the trans rights rally. And what can you see in front of us? Um, All the L G B T people here to support the counter protest. There are quite a few signs and flags. Could you just tell me what some of the signs you've got with you? Um, my one says, uh, the F and TURF stands for fascist. [00:15:30] Um, your, uh, there's also protect trans people and Nazi turfs. Fuck off. And just behind us, we've got stuff written on the W walls. Are you, are you able to read us some of, some of what's here? Yep. Uh, trans lives matter. Why waste your energy hating us? Um, no retreat from the right to choose, protect abortion rights. So why was it important for for you to be here today? Because trans rights are human rights. [00:16:00] End of story. Oh, what you can see in front of you is a collection of, uh, what we are going to be counter protestors to the, uh, trans, uh, bigot, uh, POY Parker. Uh, however, she was humiliated and had to leave the country. So now it is a celebration of, uh, trans pride and a protest for, uh, trans rights as well as bodily autonomy and just a show of solidarity amongst, uh, the entire, um, queer spectrum. There are a lot of flags and signs around. Can you just read some of the signs out? Yeah, of course. So we've got teachers with pride over there, which is great. [00:16:30] Um, defend abortion rights. Very important, especially with the overturning Roe Wade last year. Um, acceptance saves lives and hate kills. I think that's very, very important. Mm-hmm. Um, we've got q e d up on the stairs up there. Uh, militant trade union struggles. As well. I can't read the rest of that sign, but that's cause my vision is terrible. Um, militant trade unions struggle against trans discrimination. So I'll say that one more time. Militant trade unions struggle against trans discrimination. Thank you. Cause trans rights is of course, also worker's rights. And, um, worker [00:17:00] solidarity is needed now more than ever. Can you describe the feeling today? Oh, the feeling today, um, it's incredibly positive. It was, it's been an incredibly tough time. I mean, I'm transgender myself, I'm non-binary. It's been a really tough week. Uh, we saw what was happening in Melbourne, uh, with the neo Nazis coming out in support of Posy Parker and knowing that she was coming here, we were all very, uh, afraid and there was a lot of despair, and especially that she was allowed into the country. But, um, now that she's gone, this is, uh, I, I would say a rare victory for, uh, trans people, for all trans people to come together and realize that and, and see, uh, [00:17:30] bigotry being chased away from our country. So, uh, what we are seeing and feeling here, I say, is a lot of celebration, uh, a feeling of triumph and a real feeling of solidarity, I would say. Yeah, I completely agree with him. Um, as a cis man, I think that's all I'm gonna say on the subjects, but, um, I can't imagine how difficult it's been for the trans community this week. I've seen it in glimpses with Maxwell this week. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, just. A very, a very different feeling to what a lot of people were expecting, but I think that's a positive thing. Did, did, did, did either of you see the footage [00:18:00] from Auckland, uh, last night? Oh, yes. No. I, I watched the whole thing. I watched the whole thing. I, because, um, when, when it was happening, um, I remember as soon as it started, I watched place Parker's livestream. I was, I was so nervous. I knew a lot of friends that were gonna be at that protest. Um, and there was a lot of feeling, uh, very similar to the mandate protest that, uh, were, uh, happening last year as well. Um, and so there was a lot of fear about what similar things would happen. And I watched the whole thing. It was so exciting to see thousands of people turning out, uh, to defend trans rights, to defend against obvious bigotry, obvious anti-trans sentiment, and [00:18:30] demonstrate with their free speech. I know some people are saying that someone was robbed a free speech, protest is free speech, can't protest this free speech. It's all free speech. You can't be annoyed that your free speech was protested with free speech. That's all. It's all free speech. It's all together. Um, It was absolutely beautiful to watch. And um, frankly, anyone that aligns themselves with neo-Nazis is willing to, um, try to ghost, um, what's, what's, what's the word for gaslight? Sorry? Gaslight people into thinking that the rat trans sentiment is coached in feminism, uh, deserves that kind of humiliation. Yeah. Yeah. And that's exactly that. And the other thing I'd like to add is that, [00:19:00] um, free speech doesn't necessarily mean we have to listen, so we're just gonna drone you out. And especially if you are preaching that big, that hate like you do. Yeah. Like Posty Parker is also, do we, is it free speech or freedom expression, Jake? Uh, well, the actual right in New Zealand is actually freedom of expression. And anyone who's trying to stand on a platform of only free speech is really just importing that from America. It has no basis in our, um, our legislation because the right is freedom of expression and it really pisses me off. And people don't get that right. Jack knows a lot about the law. [00:19:30] So, uh, poey, I, I have a feeling is on a plane or maybe it's got off a plane back in the UK now. So isn't here today. Yes. Is there something that you would like to say to her? Oh, uh, I guess I would quote the late great Georgina Byer. I'm not afraid to look you in the eye, but apparently you are. Uh, and you had to run away. Um, we, there is no place anywhere for your anti-trans bigotry. The world can see what you are doing. We know that you are trying to hide your genocidal remarks behind a, a smokescreen of feminism. [00:20:00] And you even say yourself, you're not a feminist. Um, you're a garbage person. Goodbye. There's nothing more misogynistic than upholding the gender Binary. Fuck off. Yes. Uh, well, I'm a longtime leftist. Um, one of the things that radicalized me back in the day was the homosexual law reform. I was about 16, um, straight. But, uh, I went to Wellington High School, which has got a very progressive attitude and especially now with the trans kids there. And, um, it did back then as well. I think [00:20:30] I, the homosexual law reform. It was so obvious to me. I mean, I, my parents had gay flatmates when I was a little, little baby. And, um, I mean, it is, it's sometimes hard to put your finger on, you know, the rightness of it. But the wrongness of, uh, the homosexuality being illegal was just outrageous. And, um, the same moral apparent arguments that we have today happened back then. Uh, gays were a danger to children. All that bloody nonsense. [00:21:00] Um, statistics as people keep on emphasizing, uh, completely in the other direction. There are other places to look, that sort of thing. And, um, Yeah, so I'm here because an injury to one is an injury to all, basically. Can you just look out and describe what you can see, uh, in front of us there's about 600 people I think. Um, we're looking down on the civic square, um, and it's, you know, obviously a [00:21:30] rainbow of flags and a rainbow of people. I see a bunch of orange vests because of course we need to be concerned about fascists or, you know, destiny types turning up. Uh, I apparently missed out on some of the headlines from Auckland yesterday. Um, so I'm told that there were fascists, or at least traditional Catholics of the, I presume the Society for Protection of Unborn Children type may have been there. [00:22:00] Um, so, you know, we have to look out. There's a lot of entrances here. Um, and, and there's, there's a lot more people coming in at the moment, isn't there? Uh, there are, yeah. Um, so the Cuba Duper Festival is over there. I'm sure people will just transition from one event to the other. This is scheduled for one 30 and, uh, I think we still have a few minutes. Uh, now the drums start up and all the things that make an old protest or regret lose their voice. It happens to be very easily. I tend to shake my fist rather [00:22:30] than shout. This is Lely Hor Transwoman. She, her pronouns from T Tara. I'm here with Q E D organizing the rally for Trans Rights and Reproductive Rights, and we have got a massive crowd forming up. For the start, people are still streaming in by the hundreds. It's gotta be at least a thousand people, maybe more already here. And I'm starting to worry whether the civic square is gonna be big enough for us all. What an amazing feeling. [00:23:00] Oh, it's fantastic. Such a huge outpouring of support from all across Teang, Tara. It's awesome. The people of all ages, all colors, all walks of life are here. We've got a drum crew doing some really cool stuff right now. You can probably hear on the recording and I've heard there may be a brass band show up. What? Salvation Army? Uh, probably not them. I can't say for sure who it will be or if they're coming, but we're just hoping for a real good party [00:23:30] now. My name is Tristan [00:24:00] Cordelia. I am a trans woman, and I'm not ashamed to say that we're gathered here today in solidarity against hatred. Someone tried to come from outside our community to stir up hatred against trans people, against women, against Muslims, against people of color. The English transphobic agitator. Kelly j Kean calls herself Posy [00:24:30] Parker, and claims to be defending cis woman against trans women while simultaneously undermining the right to abortion. She preaches Islamophobia and hides behind Neo-Nazi militia. Thus proving once and for all that some of the turfs, that workforces are indeed the same. The burn crosses Auckland refused to let her speak, and she ran [00:25:00] home with her tail between her legs, so, So thank you, Tam, because what was going to be quite a confrontational rally here has turned into a party.[00:25:30] This rally for transgender and reproductive rights has been organized by the leftist, queer and trans group. Queer Endurance for Defiance. They set, they set up a similar rally two years ago. The last time transphobic agitators came to our town to try and spread hate. We drown them out then, and we will drown them out now.[00:26:00] So today we're going to make ourselves heard and we are going to drown out hatred with our otha. The Posy Parkers of the world would like nothing more than to divide us. Rich Wright haters wants cis woman to fair trans woman. They want Muslims to fair gaze. They want queers to fair people of color and thus silence us. But they can only keep us down. If they can keep us divided. They fair the love that our unity has ignited. They would [00:26:30] murder one of us and blame it on the other, but we see through the lies that they cower behind. For cover, let us stand shoulder to shoulder and shout. Love, not hate, love, not hate, love.[00:27:00] This color here speaks to the Kopa. We want to establish here uniting in our diversity and building strength together.[00:27:30] We're going to hand over to our speakers. Now we have five scheduled speakers. First up, Ava [00:28:00] Kyo. Coto. Can you all hear me at the back there? Nice. My name is Vera Ashbourne and I am a supporter of the International Bolshevik Tendency, a communist organization fighting for workers power, an roa and the world. As a member of Q E D, I helped set up this rally for trans acceptance and, and reproductive rights, and [00:28:30] it was a great privilege. And I am also a trans woman, and it is with these, it is with these three voices that I speak to you today. When we started organizing this, we thought we'd get maybe a hundred. You have turned up in thousands. Thank you all for sharing your strength and your aroha with us. [00:29:00] I'm particularly heartened by the support from the unions who gave us so much help and promotion. I am, I say again proudly a communist. And as you can imagine, the organized working class is very near and dear to me. It warms my heart to see union banners flying over a trans liberation rally. Some people say that transphobia is not a working class issue, [00:29:30] that working class people don't have time for this gender stuff that workers don't or shouldn't care about. Trans people, and now we can say bollocks to that the workers about ROA are standing up. I'm very glad to see you because you are the best hope for queer people and all oppressed people everywhere. She might be gone driven off by our comrades in Auckland. [00:30:00] But Kelly J. Kane and the global rise of transphobia and the far right are only a symptom of a festering rot in society, not just here, but around the world. That illness is the decay of the capitalist system, and as we head for further and deeper economic crisis, there will be more and worse. Like her only you can stop them keen claims to fight for. For women, this is a lie. She calls for under [00:30:30] sixteens to be denied birth control or abortion. Her tour was funded by cpac, a major coalition of American far right groups that fought long and hard to overturn Roe v. Wade and now demand the elimination of transgenderism in a, in Australia and Auckland. She was joined by a who's who of the misogynist, far right. Pauline [00:31:00] Hanson, ki Smith, Evie Ya. Brian Toke. Yeah, I thought that won't get you up in Melbourne. She let an actual fascist mob join her rally unopposed. The banner those Nazis held was simply a more honest expression of the turf program, smearing trans people, particularly trans women as dangerous perverts who must be [00:31:30] exterminated turfs, stand with fascists, the greatest enemies of women on earth because they share a common goal in driving trans people out of public life. Women who oppose them though get beaten by cops or rammed with motorcycles to applause from Keen's. Crowd turfs don't give a shit about women, they just want to oppress trans people. Q E D was founded on the principle that we [00:32:00] can't rely on the existing state or the center left to keep us safe. That only collective struggle can keep reactionary scum like Keen at bay. We saw that in Auckland yesterday. Give them a cheer. Give Auckland a cheer. Struggle. Struggle works. Take the lesson[00:32:30] on Friday. The news broke that the Ministry of Health deliberately concealed information that puberty blockers are safe and reversible information. It knows to be true because it was afraid of backlash from the turf lobby. Shame. A state that throws us under the bus over angry letters, sure as hell won't keep us safe from fascist mobs. The only [00:33:00] force to ever stop fascism before it can take power is the organized working class in militant struggle only. We collectively, through our own power and our own organizations can keep us safe. But even here, the state, the state ties our hands. New Zealand has some of the harshest antis strike laws in the world. Collective action has been almost entirely banned since the nineties. Each success of government, [00:33:30] national, or labor led has upheld those draconian laws. They don't want us to fight and they won't fight for us. Workers of ROA demand the right to strike so that in 10 years time when the government tries to ban trans kids in our schools, you can shut down the education system until they give in so that if fascists try to seize control, you can close the entire economy to stop them. [00:34:00] You have that power. It can be done. It has been done before. I know that the global rise of hate can seem inevitable, but it is not. You are not powerless. We are not powerless. We can fight and we can win. Workers. The power to defeat hate rests with you. Take it back. [00:34:30] Thank you. Thank you, Vera. That was amazing. Welcome, Caden Kiara. My name is Caden. I am a gender neutral trans-masculine bisexual. [00:35:00] My pronouns are Aziza. He, him, and she her. I'm a member of Q E D. I am a migrant from Western Australia. My family came here to escape a highly controlling Christian fundamentalist cult, known as Jehovah's Witnesses. Since the day I was born, I wasn't allowed my own voice or my own identity. I wasn't allowed control over my own body. Jehovah's Witnesses are incredibly [00:35:30] misogynist, homophobic, and transphobic. They are an anti-abortion, a stance they have in common with Ms. Kelly j Kean Kelly. Having toured Australia with anti-abortion campaigners, Kelly j Kean seeks to ban children under the age of 16 from being able to access abortions and contraceptives without the [00:36:00] need of parents' knowledge or parents' consent. This is dangerous for young people, young girls in particular, who have been raised in similar circumstances to my own in anti-abortion, misogynist fundamentalist communities. Who treat pregnancy as a punishment, regardless of [00:36:30] if it was the result of sexual assault, which runs rampant in these communities. When I began to find my voice and my identity as a five year old, the age at which I began to realize fully that I wasn't a girl, I was met with extreme violence. I was sexually abused by a boy twice my age to assert that I was a girl and he was a boy. When I went to tell people what happened, [00:37:00] nobody believed me. I was a accused of lying. I had no support. I repressed myself and these memories heavily. It wouldn't be until I was 16 that my gender issues would resurface as I tried to push myself to become more feminine, to accept womanhood, but I couldn't. It didn't fit me at all. I had dropped out of high school because I was dealing with both the trauma of escaping OC cult. The trauma of multiple sexual assaults from members of the cult, as well as a lack [00:37:30] of support from the religious leaders of our congregation. And though I didn't realize at the time the trauma of my gender dysphoria as I was being forced to fit a mold that wasn't for me, wasn't until I was 21 where I would begin my medical transition with testosterone and everything came together. I hadn't realized the toll I had been paying up till that point. My mental health [00:38:00] improved. I was more confident. I was happier, I was recovering. It wasn't until I was 21 that I was allowed to truly be myself, to own myself. I was no longer being forced into something I wasn't. My next point is since moving to Nu Tara, to Wellington, I have formed new bonds with people, with other trans people, trans women, especially. The most important bonds [00:38:30] to me was with a beautiful woman named Ian Trans. Gwen is a trans woman, and I love her so completely. I have never met anyone as compassionate, as caring, as funny, as kind, as respectful, as determined as she is. Me being someone who experienced a lot of trauma in my life, I had come to believe I was too much to deal with that my boundaries and needs were too much, [00:39:00] especially when it came to my boundaries around sex as a sexual assault survivor. But Gwen was always receptive to me. She listened to me, genuinely and truly listened to me. She respects me. She respects my boundaries. She never forced me into anything. She treats me with so much love and care of which I have never experienced in my life, and in [00:39:30] return I do the same. As part of that intense care and love I feel for her and for all trans women I know to an extent is intense fury over how they are treated by people like Kelly, J Keen and her supporters. The joy and happiness of my relationship with Gwen has been interrupted endlessly with hostility, outside hostility aimed at Gwen. Specifically for being an out and [00:40:00] proud trans woman. I have been shouted at and threatened in the street for walking next to her, standing by her against this abuse multiple times. I want to make a very clear distinction here that what happened at Kelly's event last week in Melbourne were a contingent of neo-Nazis who call themselves the National Socialist Network, stood up Sieg Haing with their Nazi Roman salutes that banners that said destroy Petto freaks. This was [00:40:30] no mistake since last year in October, Gwen has been stalked by herself proclaimed Ethnonationalist, who idolizes the Christchurch Mosque shooter, the man who murdered 51 people entering 50 more. The shooter who has direct ties to the National Socialist Network, who was reached out to by Tom Sewell, the head director of the National Socialist Network. Gwen Stalker has donated to action [00:41:00] Zandia another neo-Nazi organization that is also the New Zealand wing of the National Socialist Network, which was present at Auckland's event yesterday. Whether there are more direct ties and support for actions, zandia or not from this person, I do not know. I'm not the kind of person who delves into the personal lives of strangers on the internet. I care too much about my own mental health and the mental health of the woman I love to do so are,[00:41:30] but the idolization of the violent, racist terrorist who murdered 51 people at their place of worship is enough. The iDation of a inherently racist and violent ethnonationalist ideology is enough. It's all enough for you to get the picture that this is all related. This is no coincidence. This is not a mistake. Poey Parker herself knows this Poey Parker herself has pushed the same racist conspiracy [00:42:00] theories that got those 51 people murdered in their place of worship in 2019. The Muslim rape gangs Conspiracy Theory, you've. That the event organizer Food for the Let Women Speak Rally Terry Lip Novi repeated on R N Z Tuesday morning, 21st of March. How does it feel to know that you endorsed the views of a mass murderer who killed vulnerable women and children in Christ Church on March [00:42:30] 15th, 2019? You have blood on your hands, but so much is uttering the same rhetoric, those same blood soaped words. In addition to that, the actions of Kelly J King's Group on Thursday where they assaulted an indigenous black woman from jab Waring, gunna and gunna Murra descent, Senator Lydia Thorpe, pushing her to the ground dog, piling her as police watched on some of them joining in.[00:43:00] While the president of One Nation Party, Pauline, he henson a woman who regularly complains about immigrants from Asian countries, about Muslims, about aboriginal people, and campaigns for Australia's withdrawal from the United Nations Refugee Convention to deny the safety and wellbeing of vulnerable families from wartorn countries, vulnerable women, [00:43:30] children, and survivors of abuse, who have faced some of the worst abuse paddles on about how she's apparently been silenced. You, you sit in Parliament Pauline Australia has to listen to your divisive, racist bullshit every fucking week. And in addition to that, in [00:44:00] Auckland, one of our own mps, Marma Davidson. Amari woman was struck and hit by a motorcyclist. Thank you. How dare you claim to care about the wellbeing and rights of women, children, and survivors of abuse? Well use the very same line of thinking that killed 51 people from a vulnerable community made up of [00:44:30] refugees from water drawn countries, immigrants in this country, thousands more around the world. How dare you claim to care about women, children, and survivors of abuse while you walk with neo-Nazis, while you allow racists to talk at your events. While First Nations women are literally silenced for daring to disagree with you, how dare you claim to care careful women or children, survivors of abuse while you paint the woman I love who has shown so much consideration and [00:45:00] sensitivity to my own trauma as a survivor of. Sexual childhood abuse as inherently predatory because of her anatomy. I want to acknowledge the people who change gender, who love those of the same sex, and have always been here in a akata, poi, ERO fit, brother, boys and sister girls, and other indigenous communities. To the elders of these communities, past, present, and future, [00:45:30] and to the immigrant families, the women and children from countries who came here for their safety. There are those who tried desperately to erase you, but you have always been here and your presence matters. I also want to acknowledge our intersex communities. Who face different but similar challenges. I appreciate you and stand by your side as you do mine. Be safe, [00:46:00] be loud, be peaceful. Thank you for your love and solidarity. We won this battle, my friends. We won with peace and joy in our hearts. Let's continue this peace and this joy. Thank you. Thank you so much, Caden, for sharing that with us. We're gonna take a brief two minute break while we sort it, make sure that all our technical [00:46:30] difficulties are sorted out. We need you to help us during those two minutes by making some noise. Trans rights are human rights. Trans rights are human. Rights, rights, rights Party. We have another important announcement. Nu, can we move back [00:47:00] to the back of Civic Square because we have too many people up on the bridge and we need to move some people from the bridge down into the square. Move back if you can move back to keep each other safe. While we're moving people, this would be a good time to run through some chs. Oh yeah. That we can all say together about Garth. Trans rights are human rights. Trans rights are human [00:47:30] rights. Trans rights are human rights. Trans rights are human rights. Fascist turfs. You can't hide. You've got Nazis on your side. You can hide. You've got Nazis on your side. Fascia, stufs, you can't hide. You've got Nazis on your side. Fascia stirs. You can't hide. You've got Nazis on your side. My body, my choice, my body, my choice, my body, my choice, my body, my choice.[00:48:00] We're here. We're here, we're we're where? Get used to it. Get used to it. We're here. We're here. We're we're. Get used to it. Get used to it, man. [00:48:30] Manton, manton, trans rights, human rights, trans rights, human rights, trans rights and human rights, trans rights and human rights. You're all fucking amazing.[00:49:00] We're now going to get our third speaker on the mic. Welcome. Racha has also been saving us all from a lack of selves. Good. Everyone. My name's Reacher and I am a, I am a proud trans woman. I am a proud Indian.[00:49:30] Growing up, I quickly learned that I wasn't like the other kids around me. Yeah. As much as I, I just wanted to be, you know, another Kiwi kid that you would, um, hear about in class. Nobody else would see me that way. I was brown. I ate what other people thought was weird food. There we go. I was too feminine for my all boys school. I was, quite frankly, I different.[00:50:00] I was treated awfully from your typical name calling and social exclusion to being the target of violence, many instances. Two. Graphic to share here today. I decided to myself at an incredibly young age that I would do everything in my power to make change so no other kid would have to go through what I was going through. I constantly saw those who lied at the margins, [00:50:30] the outcasts, and I still buy them, whether this be by including and accepting them into my friend circle or standing as an advocate for them with those who had authority in any situation. I can thank the incredibly staunch women in my family for this. My, my grandmother on my mother's side was a women's rights advocate in rural Punjab, putting her body on the line to support women who were the victims of violence. My grandmother on my [00:51:00] father's side was a survivor of religious violence. She witnessed her own parents' massacre, and the British caused violence of the Indian partition. Growing up in a government, government orphanage, and despite these challenges, she has always instilled the values of acceptance and equality in me, regardless of anybody's background. These are the people who have made me who I am today.[00:51:30] I realized I was trans when I was only 15 years old. I always knew I was different to the other boys at school, but it wasn't until I'd, um, finished high school at age 17 that I built off the courage to come out as trans. My parents weren't at all accepting at first, even forcing me to leave my home and face the world on my own. Being in the world alone taught me a lot, but being able to be openly myself if only among trusted people, absolutely changed my outlook on life. It gave me hope.[00:52:00] Our community, our community, us Everyone here today taught me the true meaning of love. I thought I was alone in the world, but I see out in the car today, my found family, my.[00:52:30] The traditional saying may go, blood is thicker than water, but I think today demonstrates that love is thicker than water. Our community is strong because of this love. This love is why we're out here today. In the face of unfathomable hatred, we turned up for each other, for our whanau, for our friends, for our colleagues, for our neighbors. Community [00:53:00] is at the heart of our movement, and what today proves more than anything else is that sometimes against the Lord. Love wins. In the past week, all of all of us here have spoken up against all odds and demonstrated the strength of our community. Frankly, we turned the fuck out. [00:53:30] The other side has had access to unimaginable funding access to the media, and a platform much broader than me or any of the organizers around me have ever had access to. But we fucking did it. We sent Posy Parker packing and signaled that we will not stand for hatred in our communities. We stood with each other, with our, our friends, our colleagues, and our neighbors,[00:54:00] but the fight is far from over. Trans people today are still denied access to life-changing and often life-saving healthcare with the waiting list for gender affirming surgery, sitting at over 40 years in its current set pace. I may be able to access healthcare when I turn 60. That is unacceptable.[00:54:30] [00:55:00] Love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love.[00:55:30] Everybody, we have a lost kit. The lost kid looks to be two years old. She has stitch on her pink shirt if she's your child, head down underneath the sails, underneath the white [00:56:00] sails. Thank you. And, and again, for those hear, we have a lost child. Oh, nevermind. They've been found anyway before. I was so rudely interrupted, so hopeful that women speak. Um, I was saying that the fight is far from over. I, I mentioned that trans people are still denied access [00:56:30] to lifesaving healthcare. The state and the mainstream political parties have deemed our survival and health. A nice to have is our survival, not a breaded, but a issue. Mr. Kins, the cost of inaction is dear. We are gambling with the lives and safety of our children and the rights to our existence. I promised to myself a long, long ago that I would do anything in my power to make sure no child would go through what I had to go through. And frankly, we aren't there [00:57:00] yet. In an election year, we all have the power to exercise our democratic rights at the polling booth, we. We all need to send a strong message to the parties who have frankly failed our communities. This includes the incumbent labor party when you, when you are looking for who to vote for this election. Um,[00:57:30] back anyway. To wrap [00:58:00] up. To wrap up so we can move on to other speaker. This election, you're genuinely look at which political parties have aspirations for our communities. Don't let labor and the parties. Of the right. Get away with what they've done this week and they've been doing for the past decades. Make your voice heard. If there is anything that today proves is that when we stand together, united, we can move mountains. I love you all. Today is our chance to celebrate, but the work continues tomorrow long live the revolution in.[00:58:30] Thank you. As you may have noticed, we have had one or two lemmings walking through the, a crowd of thousands of people that they're preaching hatred against.[00:59:00] If you are preaching hatred and you walk into a crowd of thousands of the people that you are preaching hatred against, you are quite clearly trying to Marty yourself. This is why I call you a living. We are here gathered. To spread love[00:59:30] as such, however angry we owe, we're going to make sure that those livings make it out alive to die. Sad lowly deaths another day. And you see if you see a dumb fucking in the. Direct that alert, a Marshall and then orange vest,[01:00:00] they will guide the livings out so that they can go on with their sad, pathetic, hateful lives somewhere else. Love that. Love, not hate. Love, not hate. Love. Not hate. Love. Not hate. Love. Not hate. Love. Not hate, love, not hate's Right to rights. [01:00:30] Right to rights, right? For a couple minutes, we will return 12 speakers in a couple minutes, but I think we just deserve to dance and vibe for a little bit.[01:01:00] Shout out to all my fellow. Patty, we have some drums. I had water thrown on me and my sign was ripped up. I had a flat up. Well, I'm just gonna wake here for a while [01:01:30] and see what happens. Yeah. Okay. So I think it's fair enough to have a different view. Right. Woo. Trying to get out of the feedback here. Can you all hear me? Yeah. Raise your hands at [01:02:00] the back if you can hear. Yes. Awesome. We've got our next speaker, Adair. Adair, are you here? Woo. Please welcome Adair to speak to us. It's actually good to be here, dear women's liberationist and communist[01:02:30] to stop. The not the likes of Kenny J King is not through calling on the state who are not our friend. The best way we've got to, we need, what we need to do to stop the likes of her is by using our own strength. We need to undermine the fears that she seeks to inflame Justice was done in Auckland [01:03:00] over the decades. We have made some reversible pro progress in securing somewhat better rights for workers, for women, for ethnicities. I've made that through overcoming divisions in the working class and uniting with the most depressed at Victoria University in 19. Early in 1970, [01:03:30] I joined one of the first women's liberation groups in the country and, and I also joined a Marxist group with a perspective of socialist revolution in which women's liberation wasn't essential part. My politics have remained much. The saying, I'm a partisan of the trade union movement, a [01:04:00] woman's liberationist and a communist. I stand against all oppression and I see the only decent outcome for US species as arriving from the. Military socialist ation. Today, 55 years after developing this constellation of years, there [01:04:30] has been slow progress, so it was. To see the Council of Trade Union's announcement that they would be joining us here today to stand against Kelly J Homophobic transphobic messages. She. Acknowledge that trans people are meant to be feared, and [01:05:00] they acknowledge not only that women's rights and workers rights are intertwined, but also that queer rights and workers' rights are intertwined. As workers, we must join together against all attacks on all the oppressed. But back in 1970, women's Liberation was not concerned with [01:05:30] claiming exclusive spaces. We were concerned with breaking into exclusive spaces. Wed. Town. The public was for men. Women had to go to the ladies.[01:06:00] This was an important change in New Zealand culture. Another problem back in 1970 involved jobs. The meat workers. Meat works were male, was a male bastion, and they were hiring. So some of us supplied, the employers told us that the work was too demanding. We couldn't do it. [01:06:30] We checked this out with Ken, friendly of the meat workers union and went back. We, the bosses then gave us a different answer. The issue was bathrooms. The toilet doors did not reach the floor, and the showers only had curtain. Not a problem. We said Any [01:07:00] man that stuck his head under the door or around the curtain would be dealt was by us. In those days, the issue was to get women in the jobs that many men had monopolized. Our battle was not for exclusive spaces, but for abortion rights. Childcare, equal [01:07:30] pay, and so on. And the best of us did it. Without demonizing men. We knew that if we did not work with men, our prayers, our hopes of building a society without oppression and exploitation was doomed to fail. Jelly Kelly, she is jelly.[01:08:00] Kelly j Keenan are followers here, spread prejudice and bigotry, which are the tools of oppression and exploitation and they are dangerous. A few weeks ago a Newcastle upon time, a representative of her organization quoted Approvingly. Hes wrecked rhetoric in mind camp about the big lie. She against wearing [01:08:30] hijabs as not British. She tried to whip. She has tried to whip up Islamia in Bradford where fascism is right. She has publicly praise Tommy Robert, English. And, and most recently when Open Fascists supported her in Melbourne, she did not [01:09:00] denounce or reject their support. We need to reflect on the long term consequences of the vitriol and lies targeted at gays and lesbians during the homosexual law reform struggle. People like Peter Alice, a gay childcare worker, who in 1993 faced vile false stories in hysteria [01:09:30] about sexual abuse children. And Jeff Wittington, a 14 year old student who was kicked to death in 1999 up the road from here, why he looked gay. Prejudice and bigotry kill. They drive people to suicide and they incite people to murder and [01:10:00] prejudice and bigotry kill trans people at an even greater rate than kills gay people. I want to end with a little story, which I think is quite amusing in 1970 in the student union's building at Victoria University. The women's toilets were several floors up from the common room and the camp, and we've got a bit sick of having to climb the stairs, so we [01:10:30] decided that right by the, walked to the cubicles and did our business and then left. What is interesting is that relatively recently in the [01:11:00] staff room or the school that I taught at, We were telling stories and I told that story and this male teacher turned around and said was, were you one of them? I was there. So we can do whatever we need to do. Thank you.[01:11:30] You are legend. Woo. I'd like to welcome our next speaker who is a representative from the Fight Up Stilettos an organization. An [01:12:00] organization that we have the utmost respect for, and we are proud to share the stage with Kiara. Uh, we have the honor of representing the 19 fired up stilettos today. We are [01:12:30] a group of 19, uh, strippers who got fired for trying to collectively bargain. Louder. Louder. All right. We are a group of 19 strippers who got fired for trying to collectively bargain, uh, to get fair pay and to get our tax invoices from a strip club in Wellington. Uh, since that [01:13:00] time, we, we've spent about a month and a half together, uh, collectively, uh, getting together across the motu, uh, strippers from venues all around New Zealand who are struggling with punitive fines. Uh, with bonds, um, with sexual assault in these clubs. And not only, not only are we a collective made up of [01:13:30] women, we are collective made up of gender diverse people. We'll not be silenced. We stand on the shoulders of giants such as Georgina Bayer, who we, dearly dearly. Miss Georgina [01:14:00] stood for not only trans rights. For queer rights, but for sex worker rights too. Although strippers are not considered legally sex workers, we are very much tied into the same community. We are innately connected with the trans community and many of our comrades crossover. We are a Venn diagram, [01:14:30] so therefore, sex worker and stripper rights are innately trans rights. We need action and public support right now as the conditions and venues worsen across the motu. It is imperative that we have your support moving forward. We will not let the voices of bigots scare us into [01:15:00] hiding. We are here and we are, um, I'm from the same group, so I won't go over that again. Thank you very much for your support, um, and for inviting us to speak here at this beautiful event that [01:15:30] is just so fucking cool. Like sws and turfs tend to come in like the same package. Um, and I want to acknowledge how stupid that frame of thought is. Um, in terms of the feminist argument, because it comes from this idea that women need to be protected from themselves and from other [01:16:00] people who are also women. Um, and that really doesn't make a lot of sense to me. So I just think that this is beautiful. Everyone is here together supporting trans rights. Which they should. Woo. And I want everyone to look around and see the numbers that are here and recognize what we can do when we stand together. Because there are a lot of fights needing to be fought right now. Yours is one of them. Ours is one of them. [01:16:30] They're all the same fight, really. So let's just do a lot of, a lot of this. Yes. And uh, on that note, if you wanna do more protesting, we are gonna be at Parliament on the 16th of April and we would love, thank you. [01:17:00] Woo. Big round of Applauses for the fight up the letters. Also want a shout out to the Maori wardens who've turned up. You guys are awesome. Shout out to all the volunteers who made this happen.[01:17:30] Would you like to speak? Our final speaker today is our amazing Chief Warden Leal. Thank you very much to everyone who's here. It's an amazing crowd, and the first time I've spoken to a crowd this large, and thank [01:18:00] you so much to the job done in Auckland. We've heard all about the past now, so let's talk about the future. A future that I hope has way more room for queer joy, for trans joy, for us to just have fun as people. Ah, since the turfs did not show up in force today, I'd like to talk [01:18:30] a bit about what we at Q E D are demanding, Ofra and the healthcare system. For those of you who are trans or have transplant, I'm sure you know exactly how fucking awful it actually is for those that don't. We've got transphobic doctors. We've got 12 plus year wait lists. It's all a complete shit show. And we want to fight the water to sort this out. We wanna,[01:19:00] we want properly funded with properly chained doctors. And we want an informed consent model now, oh, people are saying we're spreading hate. I say, we are here spreading queer joy, queer love. So let's just paddle.[01:19:30] We have gathered here today and what we have very good reason to believe. It's the largest queer right trans rights rally in the history of history of art.[01:20:00] You're all amazing. I'm feeling good as hell, and I, if you are also feeling good as hell as I hope you are, but it's okay if you're not. I wanna hear you say it. After I sing a little song, I got my head check [01:20:30] my nails, baby, how you mys, how you, that basically wraps up the part of this where we speak to you and with you, but we all wanna have some noise and some joy together for a little bit. So we're gonna have a bit of a party, maybe go on for half an hour, half an hour, half an hour, [01:21:00] make some noise, sing some songs, all generally like have a giant love fest. If there is anything concerning that we need to bring to people's attention, we will jump back on the mic and let you know. I'm reasonably confident that it's just gonna be a good time though man.[01:21:30] Trans rights are human rights, trans right to human rights. Trans rights are human rights. Trans rights are human rights. We're still here. We're still here. We're still fucking, we're still fucking, so you're better have got used to it by now. Yeah. So, um, we are [01:22:00] both volunteering with, uh, queer Endurance and Defiance today at the, um, rally for Trans Rights and Existence in Poka, Wellington. Um, originally we were gonna be here opposing the, uh, well known international turf Poey Parker. But, uh, she fled the country last night like a coward. So, um, it was just a huge celebration of trans joy and there was one turf who showed up and who was very outnumbered. Um, we packed civic square from wall to [01:22:30] wall and over the entire bridge too. So by far the biggest support of trans rights I've ever seen. Can you describe the feeling of seeing all those people in Civic Square? Uh, it's, it's pretty magnificent. Uh, I was stationed at the back for a long time, so I didn't really. Get to see it much. Uh, but then I came up onto the steps. I turned around and I thought, oh, nice. There we go. And can you describe the atmosphere? Uh, it's very joyous. It's very, [01:23:00] uh, it's very united. It's very united. There's a lot of, um, people who are here because they believe in a singular cause. Uh, and you can see that whenever you have people trying to speak out or coming in or just whenever they're supporting a message, uh, almost every five to 10 seconds the speakers have to pause because it's just overwhelming applause from the audience. And it's beautiful to see so many people united on, um, something like this. As you were saying that Poy wasn't here [01:23:30] today. Um, do you have a message for Poy? Yeah. Good riddance. Don't come back. Oh. Hi. Did I? Yeah. Dickhead. Yeah. I'm glad she didn't show up. I'm glad because, um, there was a high chance of having, you know, lava actions, landia, um, destiny Church, but without her to polarize them. It was a much safer environment for us in our party. I will say one thing, uh, I think we should all remember that this is a misguided and [01:24:00] hateful old woman, but an old woman. Nonetheless, I hope she's able to relax with a nice bowl of tomato soup. Kiara, I'm richer. Um, I, I, today I was out here helping organize this rally where we showed our numbers against hate and we really got out the message that love is stronger than hate. And that's something that I'm really proud of. How many people do you think are here today? I, if I had to guess from past, uh, protest organizing experience, I would say about two to [01:24:30] 3000. And I would say this is probably one of the biggest rallies, if not the biggest rally in aro. Yeah, absolutely. Especially on, um, any issues of, uh, trans rights or queer rights. It's fucking huge. As an organizer, how does it make you feel when you see so many people? Um, it makes me feel joyous because frankly, this is, this is our whanau, these are our friends, our colleagues. These are people standing up for our rights, cis, trans, gay, straight, whatever the case. We are loved and I really feel that today. Can you describe what the atmosphere is like? Um, it's an atmosphere, [01:25:00] again, of love, of, um, caring of radicalism, which is something that we really need in our community. And, um, we, you know, we don't feel silenced today. We've, we've gotten out there on our, on the loudspeakers and we've. Made our voices heard. Now, posy Parker wasn't here today. I think she was out of the country at the time. Um, do you have any words for her? Any words for Poy? Um, good riddance. Uh, goodbye. Um,[01:25:30] clear guys. Clear. Clear. Please See ya.[01:26:00] I have just attended the trans, um, rally against turfs, or turds is, we're hauling it lately. Can you describe the feeling? Oh, it was just a feeling of love and happiness and, you know, anger, you know, some of the speech has brought anger and sadness, but it also brought a lot of love and happiness and togetherness. Had you ever been in a kind of, uh, crowd that size [01:26:30] talking about trans and queer rights? No. No, I hadn't. I, I used to. Be involved in, um, pride in Hamilton and it was pretty small scene. Yeah. And, um, for you personally, why was it important for you to be here today? Uh, I've got a daughter who's trans. I've got, uh, I'm non-binary myself. I've got lots of friends who are trans. Um, and yeah, I've always just wanted to stand up for human rights as well. There were just a very small amount [01:27:00] of people that were, were kind of, um, protesting our, our rally. Um, what do you think of somebody turning up to like a, a rally of a thousand, 2000 people and, uh, I mean, gosh, I think the, the speaker at the time was correct in saying they're trying to be a martyr. Um, you know, I think they're trying to provoke us. Um, And, you know, that is hard to sit by and, and see that, but they didn't get to speak. And that's the main thing. And even when they left, I made sure they [01:27:30] didn't get to speak. Well, you were well, well prepared, weren't you? Yes. I had my bowel school vow. Is that the first time it's been used in a, in an activist kind of way? Yes, yes. I'm just so glad I've kept it. You know, I was thinking, ah, maybe I'm downsizing. Do I need this big brass school bell? But yes, I, and there you go. I do, I do. Well, it was very loud and very appropriate. Yeah. Thank you. I, I really, I just thought I can't do anything violent, but I'm really annoyed that this woman's still here. And so when she was [01:28:00] leaving, I made sure I escorted her out with my loud bell. If somebody couldn't be here today, uh, how would you describe it? What would you say to them? Oh, it was really fun and you missed out on a really good time and there was enough room for people as well, so, you know, if people were scared about the crowd, there was actually enough room and it was just full of love and, and it was really good fun. So, I'm. I'm Pepper. I'm a, um, Wellingtonian for many [01:28:30] years. Um, I came here to support, um, the trans community. I've trans friends and colleagues. Um, I hate to see the level of bigotry and intolerance and in fact, I regret using the word hate to see because I don't like the kind of, um, negativity that is inspired by women like Parker Posey. Um, and so yeah, I've come out in support. Can [01:29:00] you describe the crowd? Ah, it was a huge, joyous, colorful, um, diverse crowd of people. The, the energy was really positive. It was really lovely. Um, Wellington has. As you, I'm sure you know the highest population of rainbow community, and we really, I think we really saw that today. Then there's rainbow flags flying on the bridge over there. Yay. Wellington. It seems to me, [01:29:30] uh, just from talking to a lot of people that actually there, there's a real rise in kind of either, uh, in, in both anti-trans antique sentiment. Wh why do you think that is? I wonder if it's because it's just. That it's been revealed. I think it probably has always been there, but there hasn't been the same platform. It hasn't been the same stage. I think as probably our trans community and our Roseburg community are [01:30:00] more visible, people are reacting against that. Um, it's a similar thing that happens with, um, you know, child Maori and, uh, people feeling the threat of decolonization. People who haven't been aware of their privilege until the other gets the stage and, and they, and they realize they, you know, they can't hold onto that privilege that it is a privilege and the world's changing. So I think, I think it's, you [01:30:30] know, it's all of that. Yeah. Now I think, and please forgive me if I've got this wrong. We, we were both around during homosexual law reform. Yes, definitely. Yeah. Um, so, um, is it, do, do you think there's a different feeling between what was happening then in the eighties and, and what's happening now? I wonder. It's, I wonder if it's become more complex now and that also scares people. You know, I think, um, you know, just the kind of arguments that are coming up on social media, [01:31:00] they're, they're, some of them are, Are so irrational and they're trying to hold onto a black and white world, you know, a binary world. And, and again, it's kind of scary that it's not binary. I think. Um, and you know, the difference I guess in the eighties is that as far as I know, I'm not part of the community, but as far as I know, it wasn't trans wasn't part of that dialogue or that, that fight. Um, [01:31:30] so it was, although that's still raised, you know, a lot of bigotry and a lot of, um, you know, conservatism, it, it seems to me the difference is it wasn't as complicated. But like I said, you know, I'm not part of the community. I'm sure you know, and I realize it's always complicated, but I think, um, that, you know, the fluidity of. Gender, the, the fluidity, the spectrum wasn't as much part of the conversation then. So can you describe [01:32:00] from the crowd today? What, like, give me a, gimme a sense of what the crowd was like if somebody couldn't be here, what would the, what would you say? I would say there was a strong, um, rainbow presence. I'd say there's a strong presence of allies, I would say. Um, that, although mostly the crowd was kind of young-ish. I mean, I'm not young, so a lot of people seem young to me. But, um, uh, it was, yeah, yeah, positive. Um, lots of [01:32:30] signs, very funny signs. What would Georgina do? I love that transphobia in this economy, you know, so it was, you know, there was a lightheartedness, but there was also a real, a real serious. And a, and a commitment. Um, and yeah, people are just wandering away now, um, talking, chatting, it seems, um, pretty positive. Yeah. Now, posy Parker, I think, flew out last night from, from Auckland.[01:33:00] Uh, so couldn't be here today. Uh, well, well, actually, well, that was your choice, I think. Um, is there anything that you would say to her, uh, flippantly? I'd say get a life, um, more seriously, I'd say there, you know, stay out of other people's business. How does this hurt you? You know, um, she's not, I'm a. I'm a cis woman. I'm offended. And that she purports to stand up for women. Um, she's anti-abortion as far as I [01:33:30] know. She's quite very conservative. Um, I don't, I don't want her speaking for me. I'm glad that she's gone. Um, I'd say, yeah, New Zealand ro I didn't want you here. Don't come back. Uh, so my name's Spencer. Um, I use he, him pronouns. Um, it felt amazing to see all, uh, trans whanau and everyone supporting them. Um, it's been since, since hearing like the stuff about Posy Parker come [01:34:00] to New Zealand, I've been feeling quite, um, I guess kind of alone, even though I live with my, my beautiful trans partner. Um, but coming here was, uh, definitely made me feel better about just the whole situation in general. Yeah. Uh, Kiara, I'm Emmett tha them, um, I'm said beautiful trans partner slash fiance. Um, yeah, it's, we don't live in Wellington, so it can be kind of isolating sometimes. Um, and so just being connected to everyone, [01:34:30] remembering we're not alone, being at the back with the banner and having to just keep moving further and further and further back. Cause the crowd just kept on growing and growing and we couldn't hear a lot of the speeches, but we could still feel a lot of the energy and everything. Yeah. Hi, I'm Gre. Uh, it was really great to see people come out at, in celebration of trans and queer lives in general, uh, having lots of trans friends and family. Um, it can get really scary. Uh, you get really scared for them when you hear messages, uh, like what Pohi Parker has been stealing. [01:35:00] Um, but seeing all the lovely people gathered today makes you feel, you know, a little bit more hopeful for them and, um, just wanna protect them a lot. Yeah. I love you guys. Sorry. It's an amazing turnout. I don't think I've ever been in a crowd so large for trans queer rights. Yeah. How did that feel? Um, pretty, pretty amazing. Just, um, knowing that everyone there supports me, um, and like, lets, wants us to like actually live our lives and just exist. Um, like that, that's kind of [01:35:30] like the, the bottom, the bar is pretty low, but, um, that's, yeah. Kind of what I got out of it ex It was exciting but not surprising. I think like, you know, deep down I was like, yeah, actually there are that many people who were there for us. And watching everyone pour in was incredible. Even though we couldn't see the full size of the crowd, we could definitely hear the full size of the crowd. Yeah, uh, definitely over a bit of overwhelming with all the, all the people. Um, lots of love. It was great seeing so much diversity come out. And um, [01:36:00] I am from Wellington and I love seeing how many great people we have in the city and Yeah. And from outside obviously, or everyone coming from outside Wellington. So one person that wasn't here today was Posy Parker who left New Zealand yesterday. Um, do you have any words for Posy? None that you can publish. Bye. Yeah. Seconded. Yeah. Uh, my name is Ki Pollock and I am an out and proud lesbian, and my sign says, [01:36:30] Lesbians for our transo. Um, and I decided to make this sign because I know that, uh, There are lesbians who support the likes of Posy Parker, who are transphobic. And I find that extremely troubling and sad and also embarrassing to be honest. Um, and so I just wanted our transo to know that there are so many lesbians out there who absolutely [01:37:00] 101% support them. Why was it important for you to be here today? I think it's really important to, uh, take a stand. Um, the power of numbers is real. We saw that today. Uh, the more people at this sort of thing, the more feeling of solidarity, but also of joy. There was a lot of talk about joy and I absolutely saw that today. And you just, you need a lot of people for this. So these are the times where everyone has to stand up and make an effort if they possibly can and come [01:37:30] down to things like this. Speaking of numbers, how many people do you think were here? Oh, I would say, I don't know, 3000 like thou. It felt like thousands. You know, it, it absolutely filled, um, to Naco Civic Square, and it's so great to see, you know, what has historically been Wellington's most important public space actually being used again, you know, it has such a history of, um, protests and demonstrations and rallies, and that's. Kind of stopped for a bit because of all the closed [01:38:00] buildings. And so it's just fabulous to come back here and, you know, resurrect Civic Square again for such a great, great cause. And, and, and just making it, making it a, a queer space. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I remember one of the, I to come down here when out in the city was out in the square at the time, I can't remember what it was called when that was held at, um, civic Square. And that was one of my earliest forays into queer life in Wellington before I was out. And so I have really fond memories of coming here [01:38:30] and coming to that wonderful day. Uh, so. You know, I remember that. Um, and it's nice to be back again now in 2023. Um, gonna do a closing. Now, it doesn't mean you all have to immediately leave. You are free to vibe. This is your space. When you do go try to go together with other people, keep your vibes strong, you'll probably feel a bit of a crash at some point, just cuz we've had such an intense day together. [01:39:00] Look after each other, love one another. You're all amazing. [01:39:30] Woo.

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TITLE: Caren Wilton profile
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VOICES: Caren Wilton
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; 6 Boulcott Street; Anti Springbok tour protest (1981); Anti-Apartheid Movement; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bi-lines (newsletter); Caren Wilton; DOODS (Dykes Out Of Debt); Dana de Milo; Dorian Society; Egyptian collectables; Egyptian themed; First National Bisexual Conference (1990); Hecate Women's Health Collective Inc; Lesbian and Gay Dances (Wellington); Lesbian and Gay Fair; Masterton; More (magazine); My Body, My Business: New Zealand Sex Workers in an Era of Change (book); National Library of New Zealand; Newtown Community and Cultural Centre; Railway Tavern; Rob Lake; Springbok rugby tour (1981); Strathmore Park; Sydney; The Women Learning Weekend (1981); Tiriti o Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi; Wellington; Wellington Bisexual Women's Group; Wellington Women's Resource Centre; Women's Action Group (WAG); Women's Movement; activism; anti-nuclear movement; author; biphobia; bisexual; bisexual invisibility; clothing; coming out; equal opportunity lovers; feminism; friends; hair; health; health care; health education; heterosexual; homophobia; homosexual; homosexual law reform; invisibility; judgement; lesbian; lesbian separatism; monosexual; oral history; overalls; politics; queer; separatism; sex work; t-shirts; trans; trans woman; transgender; transphobia; women; women only spaces; women's dance; women's rights; women's space
DATE: 9 April 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Caren talks about growing up in Masterton in the 1960s, moving to Wellington, feminism, lesbianism and bisexuality. Caren then goes on to talk about establishing the Wellington Bisexual Women's Group (established on the 6 July 1988) and the first national bisexual conference in 1990.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Kira, my name is Karen Wilton. I was born in late 1963 in Masterton and grew up in Masterton with my mother and my father and one younger sister. Um, my father died suddenly in an accident when I was 11, and so my mother was a solo mother after that. Um, Masterton was, it was a conservative kind of a place and um, that wasn't something I'd noticed as a young kid, but once I was a teenager, um, that beca started feeling quite difficult for me because I wasn't really a conservative.[00:00:30] Person. Um, I thought of myself as a feminist and probably as bisexual. And, um, yeah, so I left home when I had just turned 16 and went to, went to Wellington, started university at the tender age of just 16. Um, and it was, it was 1980. And so it was quite a, quite a heady, buzzy kind of a time really with, um, the Springbok tour was the following year and there was a lot of, um, student political activism was very, very apparent. Um, there was a lot of feminist [00:01:00] activism. There was anti-apartheid activism, um, gay, gay and lesbian rights activism. And so I found that really exciting and started getting, started getting involved with it. I'll just, uh, take you back a little bit when you, when you said, um, you, you thought of yourself as a bisexual and I'd be really interested to know. Back in those days, back in the kind of early, late seventies, um, was bisexuality talked about and was it, was, was that the word that was [00:01:30] used? It was, it was talked about a little bit. It was talked about a little bit and I, um, I didn't do anything about it. Right. I just, I just went out with boys as a teenager at school. I totally just went out with boys and, um, but I had this idea that, Which I think I had picked up from my hippie cousin in, um, Scotland. Um, I had this idea that everyone's bisexual we're all bisexual. And, um, I, yeah, I was like, yeah, I don't have a relationship with a woman [00:02:00] sometime. But, um, it was pretty homophobic in my school, really. Um, The homophobia was aimed in particular at boys, at, um, at young gay men or at, or at anyone who wasn't any, any boy who wasn't performing masculinity in the kind of way that he was expected to be, would be tagged with being, being a poofer or, um, subjected to homophobic abuse. Yeah, but it certainly, um, the idea of lesbianism or bisexuality wasn't [00:02:30] acceptable at all either. And so I didn't act on that at all, um, until I was, um, safely free of Masterton and living in Wellington. And then when you were going to university in Wellington, what was the kind of attitude towards, um, gays, bisexuals, uh, lesbians then? Well, in the general community at university, it was pretty homophobic and horrible as well. Really, um, definitely plenty of rhetoric around POFs and Lizzies and, you know, um, yeah. [00:03:00] But, but then around the sort of feminist scene, um, I started going to the Women's Action Group at Victoria and to my, to my great excitement, met some people who were lesbians. I was really, um, I was, I was quite wow about it to meet some women who were actually lesbians. And I made some friends who were gay men at that stage too. Um, some people I met up with through, maybe initially through anti-apartheid activism. I met a, I met a couple of, um, young gay men. We were all [00:03:30] very young, you know, we were 7 17, 18. Um, and I ended up going flatting with in 1981, the year of the tour. Ended up going flatting with a couple of, couple of gay men. Yeah. Can you describe that first meeting of meeting, uh, a lesbian or or gay person for the very first time, uh, to, to your knowledge? What was that like for you? I was, I just felt like wow, about it. I mean, I just remember, I don't remember it in detail, but I remember being at a women's [00:04:00] action group meeting at Vic in the union building and, um, two of the women who were there, one of whom was somebody I had met the previous year. At the Women's Rights Center that was in Boco Street at the time. I'd gone to a meeting about rape and I'd met this woman, Leslie there. And then the next year she was at this Woman's Action Group meeting and she was holding hands with another woman. And I was just like, oh my goodness. How exciting. Yeah. So I can't remember having any kind of conversation with them. Um, and certainly not about them being [00:04:30] lesbians or being a couple or whatever, but I was just really thrilled. Oh, like lesbians are real, lesbians are real. Here are some, and then I met a few more lesbians after that. Yeah, but the kind of take within the feminist movement at the time was very much, bisexuality just didn't even really exist, um, within people's understanding of things. Um, you know, so the, the talk was all about, um, being lesbians and people coming out as lesbians. [00:05:00] Bisexuality wasn't offered as an option that someone might come out as, or be w was it looked. Down on? Or was it just not an option? Just not present really. Just not present and not an option? Yeah. Yeah. And so I came out as a lesbian, um, at the, probably aged, I was probably 18, I think. Um, I had got involved in a few things. We had set up a young women's group. We had a group of, of young women, which I think we defined as anyone under 21. [00:05:30] Um, and we used to meet at the Women's Center in Kott Street. So I knew a bunch of very young women aged from, you know, some of them were still at high school, aged 13, 14, and 15. Um, but that was a group full of people that kept coming out as lesbians all the time. And the kind of, um, political expectation was that you were, that you were to be a lesbian. So, Um, and that, that feminism meant withdrawing your energy from men. Feminism meant taking your energy away from men, having nothing to do with men, um, [00:06:00] and being a lesbian. Putting your energy, putting your energy into women, and having a sort of a women's centered society really. So that development, uh, or the, um, the growth of separatist spaces, w that, that that was something that wa was going on. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, certainly when you say separate as spaces, I mean certainly things like women's dances and women's meetings and women's, um, this and that. Um, but [00:06:30] also this kind of idea, ideology of it, a kind of, um, maybe not separatism and it's purest pure sense with women having, you know, I didn't, I didn't know that many people who had nothing whatsoever to do with men, but, um, the ideology really tended in that direction. Yeah. Yeah, it was not very, and I mean, it was very hard on heterosexual women that I knew as well. Um, I think, I think it was hard, I think it was hard on them, um, that it wasn't very acceptable for anyone to have a, [00:07:00] any of these, any feminists to have a boyfriend. What was it like in, in, uh, feminist circles in relationship to, um, kind of lesbian energy and heterosexual energy? Were, was there any kind of conflict or, or, or did that just, um, sit side by side? I think there was a bit of conflict. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, um, my sense was that le that some of the lesbian feminists could be quite, Critical of [00:07:30] heterosexual women and heterosexuality. Um, and including, including me. Um, I remember, um, being at a, I was involved in organizing a women's conference called the Women Learning Weekend that was held at Vic. In probably 1982, I think. I haven't looked that up or thought about it for a long time. Um, but um, I had, I had just come out as a lesbian that weekend. I had just kissed a girl for the first time and I was very excited about being a lesbian. And they had a thing at the conference, which seems [00:08:00] terrifying now, where you could wear a. I think it was a purple armband if you were a lesbian. So I wore a purple armband and I was quite like, I remember being quite harsh and standing up and speaking at something and saying that I was really sick of women putting their energy into men, me, who had come out as a lesbian like eight hours previous. Right. And, um, my, whether she was still my flatmate or not, but anyway, my heterosexual friend was cry, started crying, um, because of, because of me saying that, yeah. [00:08:30] What, what was involved with you coming out? What, what did what? How did you do that? Oh, that's an interesting question. Yes. What does it, what does it mean really? I don't know. Um, I probably just mean deciding for myself, deciding for myself that that was what I was and that, um, but I didn't, I didn't quite allow myself to do that until I had actually kissed a woman. I. Um, I, um, yeah, I sort of didn't feel that I had the right to, I suppose, um, yeah, wanted to [00:09:00] prove that I could actually do that. Um, yeah, and I was already, I mean, I'm just thinking about like clothes and things like that. Um, definitely as a. Previously heterosexual feminist around that, around that scene and around the anti-apartheid activism and everything. I mean, I had already cut off my hair very short, was wearing painters overalls most of the time. Would never, um, I was gonna say, would never have considered wearing a skirt, but that may not be quite true. I still had some [00:09:30] secondhand fifties floral bits and pieces that I would put on sometimes. Um, Yeah, but it was like making a pub, a public, a public statement about myself, making a statement to myself, and then making a public statement about it as well to everyone around me. A and how was it received? Oh, I, I think in my, um, sort of feminist milieu that I was in, people would've been really pleased. Or maybe a bit sort of like about time. About time. You got on. About [00:10:00] time. You got onto that. Um, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And my family, my mother, I mean, my mother was a, a liberal, she was kind of, kind of okay with it. She was a, she seemed a little bit bemused because I had been quite, I had been quite sexually active as a young heterosexual or as a young person. Um, and so she was a little bit bemused, like, oh, but you had all these boyfriends and you, um, seem to have quite a lot of sex and things. You seem to have quite a lot of heterosexual sex, and now you.[00:10:30] So you're saying that wasn't real and that you're a lesbian? I think my mother was a little bit, a little bit taken aback by that and, um, fair coming too. Really. I think looking back, you, you, you've mentioned a number of times the Women's Center at, uh, six Boycott Street. Uh, my understanding, uh, I I, I I wasn't around, uh, there at the time, but my understanding was it was a bit of a, just a hive activity in terms of a whole lot of different groups, uh, being there. Um, can you describe what six Boycott Street was like? [00:11:00] Yeah, it was an old, um, a big old Victorian building, um, which had probably been an office building of some sort, I suppose, um, yeah, across the road from some area of the angels. Um, And the gay center was, um, downstairs and actually in the basement, I think. Um, and the Women's Resource Center was on the first, on the first floor. And Heti Women's Health Collective was in a room next door to that with um, a [00:11:30] door, a door room between the two rooms. And then there was a lesbian center that was upstairs, another one or two flights of stairs. A and did the groups interact because there were so many groups that were occupying, there weren't there in the, in, in, over like a decade period. People went there all the time. You know, people were running in and out for meetings and meetings and making newsletters and support groups and, um, yeah, he, he was probably kind of staffed all the time as such, I would think, um, with women providing health [00:12:00] advice and doing, doing health, um, health advocacy kind of work. But the other, the other, you know, the other centers were just sort of, um, drop in, running in and out kind of centers. Mm-hmm. It was a, it was a great time with a se, with a, a great sense of poss possibility and of change being afoot. And was it one of the only places in Wellington that, that, that actually was kind of like a hub for kind of queer activism? Yes, I think so. I would think so. Um, yeah. [00:12:30] Yeah. I mean, there were other places for queer social, for queer socializing, some of which were, um, popups, I suppose you'd call them these days. You know, some of which were like, you know, just a da a dance, um, organized here or there. Um, yeah. In terms of gay men, there would've been, there would've been other things, the, the Dorian Society, but the Dorian Society is obviously not a queer activism place. It's, um, it was just a place for, um, a club for me to socialize together. Yeah. For you coming [00:13:00] out, did you ever feel, um, scared or afraid that, that, that something bad would happen to you? Or w was it just a very kind of positive experience? I was pretty delighted about coming out. Really. Um, I, I think I hadn't, I had, yeah, I mean, I quite like being a bit of an outsider being, um, outside of mainstream society and perhaps feeling a bit superior to mainstream society. So it was kind of like that. Um, but I also, like, I was a [00:13:30] very fear young feminist, and I had felt that as somebody who didn't exactly identify as heterosexual, but had a boyfriend and things, um, I had, I had felt like a bit of an outsider within that group, and I didn't wanna be an outsider in that group. I wanted to be, I wanted to be an insider. Um, and I wanted to be, you know, one of the, one of the elite or something. I wanted to be part of the. Um, yeah. A part of the more, more radical kind of groupings. [00:14:00] Yeah. And yeah, there was a lot of rhetoric around how being a lesbian would allow you to do that and withdrawing your energy from men and living in a lovely lesbian woman's kind of world, growing organic veggies and listening to women's music and, um, separating yourself from male energy. Yeah. A and is that what you found ultimately? Um, well, it stopped working so well for me, I guess [00:14:30] because it, because I started noticing that actually I still felt attracted to men sometimes, which was, um, absolutely anathema, anathema to the community that I had found myself living within. Um, so it was a bit of a, a struggle within my own head about, about that. Um, and yeah, I. The, within the lesbian community, I mean, there were some, I've, I've got some really old, really old friends that I was friends with then, and some really old deep [00:15:00] friendships and things, but the community could, it could be very warm and accepting and loving, and it could also be quite judgmental. Um, yeah, so there was definitely often a sense of like, are you living up to being the right kind of lesbian? Are you wearing the right things? Are you doing the right things? Oh, do you still have a gay man friend? You know, I still, I still had gay male friends, um, at that time and kind of felt like, maybe I shouldn't, maybe I shouldn't, you [00:15:30] know, so there was a bit of a, it was, it wasn't always easy, really. So, so, so could you describe for me, um, the kind of relationships say between the lesbian and gay communities in, in the early eighties in Wellington, there was kind of a gap between the communities. I think, um, you know, there were places where the communities kind of met and interacted where particular people had particular relationships with each other, either through friendship or um, activism [00:16:00] together. Um, act actions together. Um, but the communities were separate. If I was drawing them as a Venn diagram, there wouldn't be a very, um, big crossover in the middle. Yeah. I mean, among a lot of the lesbians that I knew, I was one of the few people who had a, who had a lot of gay male friends. I had some very close gay male frames that I, um, That I continued to continue to spend time with. Um, and I went flatting with one, actually. I, um, I [00:16:30] moved out of a lesbian flat. I'd been in and went flat with my, my old friend Rob Lake, who you've also interviewed, I believe. And, um, we had a, we lived in a house together in Newtown, just the two of us for about a year. Mm. And that wasn't very acceptable. Well, I don't, I don't know. I mean, no one, no one told me off about it, but I do remember us, I do remember us having a party and his friends were all gay men and my friends were all lesbians and or feminists. Anyway, women and people were just in separate areas of the house. Um, [00:17:00] like people were, one lot were out on the back of the morning and everybody else was in the lounge. Or something, um, reminded me of how my parents used to have those parties where all the guys are in the garage drinking beer and all the women are inside drinking black bruna or something. You know, it was quite, quite, quite separate with pla separate communities, with places that they, with places the way they touched, which makes it all the more, um, remarkable to me that the communities came together for homosexual law reform. [00:17:30] Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's right. I was living in Australia, um, during the law reform campaign, so can't comment on that so much and, and on how that played out. So when, when you were in Australia and looking back at New Zealand, uh, which was going through homosexual law reform, what, what were your thoughts? Well, it's 19 85, 86, so there's no internet or anything. Right. So looking, looking at another country, um, definitely [00:18:00] not like looking at another country today. Right. As you know, of course, um, people would've been writing, we would've written letters to each other, me and my friends from home. We would've been writing letters. So, you know, it, there's a, there's a lag. Um, yeah, I wasn't, I probably wasn't super aware of what was happening at the time, really? Because it was hard, it was hard to keep up with it. Yeah. I, I have more of a sense of it looking, looking back and seeing the footage from the times and photos of protests and things. But [00:18:30] I, I wasn't here and I was pretty immersed in trying to, um, get my life together in Sydney, get my life together in Sydney. Yeah. O One of the other things you've, you've touched on is, uh, the, with, with the anti-apartheid, uh, protests, but that intersectionality of activism that was happening in the early eighties. Can, can you talk a wee bit, a bit more about that and, and how that all kind of intersected? Yeah. I mean, whether it intersected in an [00:19:00] activism, in an activism, political kind of way, I'm not sure a lot of the same people were involved across. Anti apartheid activism, treaty activism, anti-nuclear activism, um, lesbian and gay activism. Feminism. Um, you know, so it was, a lot of, it was a lot of the same, a lot of the same people, but whether people really conceptualized it in any sense of intersectionality is, if that makes sense. Um, whether people were conceptualizing in that, in that kind [00:19:30] of way. Um, I'm not, I'm not sure. And whether those groups, um, Operated in that kind of way. I'm not sure really. Well, what, what about from, from, from your perspective, like, um, what drew you to all those different groups? Um, being young and angry. Being young and angry. But believing. Believing in believing in everything. Believing really strongly in everything. Um, yeah. [00:20:00] And definitely also that thing of being young and just being away from home and wanting to meet people and wanting to throw myself into things and wanting to be, um, involved with causes and feel and feel like my life had meaning and feel like I was, um, achieving something useful. And it was a lot of fun as well. It was a lot of fun. Kind of playful in some ways, you know, great people. Um, a lot of creativity. I was involved in a small street theater, small, a little street [00:20:30] theater troop that, um, performed at the, um, at anti-apartheid, um, protests in 1981. Um, yeah, yeah, it gave, it gave my life a great sense of meaning, really. I. Can you paint a picture for me of some of the other kind of social, uh, gathering places? Be they private or, or kind of public, that kind of queer communities or in particular bisexual communities were, [00:21:00] were inhabiting in Wellington? Well, there was no bisexual community of any sort until, um, we set up a group. In 1988. Um, but in terms of the queer, um, spaces, oh, women's dancers. Lesbian dancers, those were like pop-ups that were held in halls around the place, thistle Hall, Brooklyn Hall, um, and other, other halls around Wellington. Um, the university, university lesbian and gay dancers. Um, again, this is fairly early in the [00:21:30] eighties probably, and those were mixed, um, yeah, mixed dancers with women, with women and men. Um, you were meant to be lesbian or gay if you went to them. I don't, I think, um, I don't think hetero heterosexuals were not not allowed as, as such. Um, and I probably would've been the same for bisexuals. Bisexuals weren't really included. The in in things. Yeah. But we didn't really think about bisexuals in the, in the early days, in the early times of things. Mm. [00:22:00] One, one community we haven't talked about is the transgender community. And were you aware of, uh, the transgender community in in the eighties? In the eighties? I'm just trying to think when it would've been that we, yeah, it would've been the mid eighties that the railways havent down on Thornton Key became kind of a queer gathering place and there were quite a lot of trans women who would go there. Um, You would, you know, if you went to the Lou, there would be a trans woman in the air putting on her lipstick. That sounds a bit cliched of me, but it truly, there would be [00:22:30] trans women in their, in their touching up their makeup. Um, and trans men didn't really, um, there must have been trans men, but trans men didn't really emerge as a larger group until a little bit later on. Yeah, you mentioned the Thistle Hall dances, and I hadn't heard about those. What, so what was happening at the Thistle Hall? Oh, well it was, it was just one of those halls that people would hire to run a dance at. So women's dancers were, women's dancers were sometimes held there. Yeah. And I'm not sure who organized the [00:23:00] women's dances. There must have been some loose kind of grouping of women who maybe, or maybe different groups of women put together women's dances at different times. For a while there was a thing called dudes dykes out of debt, um, who, and they would organize dances that were fund fundraisers. Um, that's probably later eighties, towards early nineties I would think. Can I talk a little bit about how I decided that I was a bisexual and how all that kind of removed? Absolutely. Yeah. So, um, I [00:23:30] had, um, while I was still living in Wellington, I had, um, so early eighties, probably up until about 84, I had started to notice that I was still attracted to men occasionally. But that was a thing of great embarrassment to me that I didn't want anyone to know about. And I certainly didn't want to do anything about it. Um, but it was sort of feeling increasingly apparent to me, really. And so then I went to live in Sydney for a bit, and I have this written down somewhere. When did I move? In [00:24:00] 1985, I went to live in Sydney. Um, kind of following a woman friend, a heterosexual woman friend that I was, that I was in love with really. Um, but things didn't work out with her because she was heterosexual. Um, but, um, I moved, I mean, I got there and immediately moved into a flat with a bunch of lesbians because I saw myself as a lesbian. Um, but then I felt a little bit freer because nobody really knew me in Sydney. You know, I only knew two or three people and no, I didn't feel like I was [00:24:30] being, um, Watched I wasn't within a community where people were aware of my behavior or cared what my behavior was. So I, um, around that time I started having some, um, little flings with men. And, um, I still really wanted to be a lesbian. I kept telling myself that, um, oh, well I've been having these sexual things with men, but, um, I still identify as a lesbian. I haven't fallen in love with a man and I couldn't, I could only love a woman.[00:25:00] Um, yeah, but then I traveled still further to, um, and ended up in Europe and on a Greek island, met a man and lo and behold fell in love with him. And I was like, oh, no. Like a problem. A problem has occurred. Has occurred here. Okay. Guess I'm not really lesbian after all. Gosh. Wow. Um, and so lived with him for a little bit in Edinburgh for three or four months, I think, and just lived as if I was a, just felt like a heterosexual, um, living with a guy walking around, holding hands with a guy. [00:25:30] It was quite a strange experience after three or four years of being completely immersed in the lesbian community. Yeah. And then I came back to Wellington. Um, my relationship broke up and I came back to Wellington in 87 after being away for two and a half years. And because all my friends in Wellington were lesbian and were involved in nearly all my friends and were involved in lesbian feminism and lived in lesbian flats and had quite a separate stake on things. Um, [00:26:00] The contradictions in everything became really apparent then, and really, really quite difficult for me. How was I gonna, how was I gonna negotiate this? Where was I going to live? Who would I flat with if I wasn't a lesbian anymore? Um, who was going to, yeah. Where was I going to be accepted and where was I going to, where was I gonna fit in? It was quiet, it was quite stressful. And I didn't, I didn't know anybody who identified as a bisexual, you know, it wasn't a thing that anybody talked about at all. Uh, Yeah, so I kind [00:26:30] of wrangled with that, wrangled with that for, I suppose about the, the best part of a year. And then, um, I, I mean, I had this kind of background of being involved in lots of women's groups. You know, you, you, um, have, uh, you have an issue or you identify with something. What do you do? You set up a support group so that you meet others like you, um, and support each other. So, um, So that was, that was what I did. I, um, put up a notice in the women's bookshop, um, [00:27:00] about a bisexual women's group, about starting a bisexual women's group and put my name and phone number on it, which felt quite brave at the time. Um, yeah. And so that was, that was in 1987? No, it wasn't. It was in 1988. And what was the group called? Um, well, we were just called the Bisexual Women's Group, Wellington Bisexual Women's Group. We probably weren't called that immediately. We wouldn't have had a name. But fairly quickly, I think we became known as the Wellington Bisexual Women's Group, which I think it's [00:27:30] still known as probably did. Did any of your, um, friends or people in the community, um, Challenge you when, when you, and say, well, actually no, you are, you're a lesbian. Did did anyone kind of just say that to you? No, they didn't say that as such. Nobody said that as such, but people definitely said things like that they would be more comfortable with me if I was a lesbian. And, um, yeah, I mean, people, people weren't happy about it. People weren't, people weren't happy [00:28:00] about it. And, um, definitely the, it felt like the take among the lesbian community was that, Um, you couldn't, that you couldn't trust bisexuals. You certainly wouldn't wanna have a relationship with a bisexual because she, um, would probably leave you for a man, probably really straight. Um, just couldn't be, trust her. Just un untrustworthy, untrustworthy, flaky kind of people that can't, can't settle on one side of things or another. How, how did that make you feel to [00:28:30] suddenly be in that kind of space? Oh God, it sucked. It was awful. It was awful. I felt very, um, yeah, it was quite a, quite a struggle, kind of a time for me, really. You know, I had one or two very close friends who, um, were very judgmental of me. Very, very hard on me. And, um, and yeah, yeah, it was a miserable kind of a time. Really. Yeah. Friends had had a, A room going in there flat and they said I could move in as long as I didn't have sex with a man in the flat. [00:29:00] And I thought, oh, I don't, I don't want to, I dunno exactly what they mean by that. But also, um, I don't, I don't want to do that. I'm not prepared to do that. Yeah. But it was a funny time as well. Once I got kind of identified with being the bisexual activist person, um, I, um, would, because I, sometimes things would happen, like I would go to a party with a whole lot of my, of women friends and, um, but people would come up. It happened a few times that that. People who were ostensibly lesbian [00:29:30] came and confided in me that actually they were attracted to a man or that they had had a relationship with a man or, um, yeah. So people wanted to tell me this stuff because other people were struggling with it too. But then it didn't mean they wanted to support me publicly. They didn't. Yeah. Yeah. And then it was great that, I mean, we had this meeting, the first meeting was on, I have written this down on the, and now where can I find it? 25th of, no, 6th of July, 1988 was the first, was the first [00:30:00] meeting. And probably about a dozen women came along to it. Um, it was held at somebody's flat, somebody who lived quite centrally offered, offered her flat for the evening. And, um, everyone got together and just kind of, it was so, it was great to meet other people who, um, Were also also bisexual. Yeah. But they tended to be most of the women who were involved in it in the early days, um, their pasts had been as heterosexuals more, you know, they were, they were coming from the [00:30:30] other side of things as it were. Um, Yeah. They weren't so much people who, women who had been involved in the women's community and were dealing with it, dealing with the fallout of moving, of moving away from that to being bisexual. They were, they were women who previously had had relationships with men and were now thinking about having a relationship with a woman, and yet it was still really great. So I felt, I felt a bit different from them and, and my experience was quite different from them. Yeah. And I got into a relationship with one of the women in the group. Um, and that, [00:31:00] um, in some ways made my life a whole lot easier to have a woman partner because most of my friends were still around the lesbian community. And so even if I was identifying as bisexual, at least I was in a same sex relationship. Can you recall the feeling you had after that first meeting, after that first group came together? I can't really, no, I can't really. I can't really, I can't really. But it was, uh, well, I suppose I was, um, really pleased to have done it. People were really enthusiastic, they were really keen [00:31:30] to, um, have a support group kind of thing and to keep meeting and keep talking about things. And, um, yeah, it totally, uh, definitely felt like the right thing to be doing. Can you tell me some of the activities that the, the bisexual group did? Yeah, we, um, we used to meet, um, we met very regu fairly regularly, like every two or three weeks or something, I think, um, with quite like meal and kind of during, during round, what's on top, how, how are you feeling today, that kind of [00:32:00] thing. Um, and just kind of discussing, discussing issues and discussing issues and things. And then the group, um, we started a newsletter. Um, about a year after we first started, so from June, 1989, I've got this written down. We started a newsletter, um, rather nicely called bylines, which, um, was handwritten at first. Um, yeah, the early hand, couple of handwritten, um, first issues, quite [00:32:30] cute. And then, um, type, type written and photocopied. Um, so we started a newsletter and then we decided to organize a national conference. Um, So in 1990, um, yeah, we organized the first, the first conference was in, um, east at, at Easter 1990, um, held at the Newtown Community Center. And it was, um, it was probably, probably about half people from Wellington, but [00:33:00] also, um, People, and I'm pretty sure the women in as well as women, but not very many bisexual men. Um, so people from around New Zealand came as well, like I recall people from Auckland and Hamilton and down south. And yeah, it was just run like one of those standard political conferences at the time with, um, workshops of different sorts where you could get together and discuss things. Um, I think we had childcare on site. Um, someone, someone [00:33:30] looking after the kids. So if you wanted to bring your, wanted to or had to bring your tam here along, um, there was, there was childcare for them. Um, how many people attended? Oh, I would say probably 40 or so. 30 or 40. Yeah. And the Wellington group probably had a, um, I mean it was a loose kind of a group with people dropping in and out. Um, as they wanted to, but it probably had a core of about 10 people who were quite strongly involved and would've come to most of [00:34:00] the meetings, would've been involved in organizing the conferences. Um, yeah, that would, that would've been the kind of central, the central group, central grouping in Wellington. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of pot, a lot of potlucks, picnics in the botanical gardens. Um, a Christmas party at the house that my partner and I shared up in Brooklyn, sitting on the deck. Um, so, so social. It was kind of social. Social supportive and political. Were there public spaces [00:34:30] that were bisexual friendly? Not specifically. And occasionally things like women's dances would be, um, quite unfriendly to bisexuals. Not always, not always at all. But I do remember, um, my partner and I and a couple of friends going to a woman's dance up in Brooklyn and there was a, they had a sign on the door, a piece of paper that said, um, This is a, it said something like, this is a dance for lesbians, heterosexuals, fuck off, bisexuals, fuck off. [00:35:00] Um, and to my shame, even though I was a, certainly a card carrying bisexual, um, I went into the, went into the dance with my friends and my lesbian friend went and ripped down the sign and ripped it up. Um, yeah, but there was a little bit of, there was a little bit of that. I mean, there was sort of apparent biphobia sometimes. Yeah. I mean, I guess it's, it's, it's. Yeah. I mean, why shouldn't lesbians have their own spaces? It's not that I, it's not that I haven't opposed to lesbians having their own spaces at all, but there wasn't really anywhere else to [00:35:30] go, I suppose, you know, there were so few women's spaces or spaces that were friendly or that targeted, um, women in same sex relationships that, you know, sometimes you just really wanted to be in one of those places, and then you'd get there and it was like, oh, oh no, they hate bisexuals and don't want us to be here. Mm-hmm. That was a bit hard sometimes. You, you mentioned that there was a, um, a smaller number of bisexual men, and I'm [00:36:00] wondering how did the gay community react to, to bisexual men? You know, I haven't the faintest idea really? Yeah. Don't know. I'm just like, let me think, let me think. Um, It's like I'm, I don't really remember people talking about bisexual men, and I didn't have a great deal to do with the bi, with the bi men who came to the conferences or whatever. I was still more interested in hanging out with women. Really? Yeah. I was still more about women. Mm. [00:36:30] Just, uh, looking back at the, uh, bisexual group, how, how did that, um, how did that grow? So, so you've talked about the start of it. How, how did it kind of, um, develop. Well, I suppose it developed from being a little, little, we support group where people were just getting together and Mo going from feeling like, oh my God, I'm the only bisexual in the world, to making bisexual friends and seeing that there were other people that were like you. So it started, it started from that, and then it [00:37:00] sort of expanded into becoming more pol, more politicized and more and more active. And I wasn't involved in this personally, but I'm pretty sure that people did stuff like. Um, have a stall, have a bisexual stall at the lesbian and gay fair that was held every year at Newtown School. Um, so becoming people became a bit more like Yeah. Sort of politicized visibility really. Yeah. I think people made t-shirts. I never had a t-shirt, but I'm pretty sure someone designed a li a [00:37:30] logo that we used on the newsletter and used for other things with, uh, so the B of bylines, sort of a double B, A double reverse B. So it looks like a butterfly. Um, and so people made te made t-shirts. Um, so just people were working towards more visibility and things. Yeah, I dropped out of my involvement in it a little bit as I got, um, just accustomed to, I got accustomed to being a bisexual. I felt better about being a bisexual. Um, [00:38:00] I was also in, uh, same sex relationships, so my life was a little bit easier really. Um, in terms of, I didn't, I didn't feel that desperate need so much for people to accept me and approve of me. Um, and just being involved, being involved with the bike group itself too. That definitely, um, yeah, definitely helpful in terms of coming to a sense of, um, self-acceptance and things, things did develop. Maybe, maybe some of the politics people developed after a little bit. [00:38:30] Um, I also wasn't so keen on people became a little bit like I. Um, that they thought bisexuals were better than other people. Um, people would use the term monosexuals to refer to lesbians or gays or heterosexuals, like people that are only attracted to one gender. Whereas we are attracted to everybody. We are equal opportunity lovers. And I didn't think that was helpful. I don't think it was helpful to be, um, judging other people's sexual identities. Um, we'd had it done, we'd had it done to us and it wasn't very nice. And um, yeah, [00:39:00] so I remember writing an editorial for the Biden newsletter. Um, around 1990. Just saying that I didn't think that was helpful and that I treated people saying monosexual and that I didn't, yeah, I didn't, I didn't, um, hold with it. Really. Do. Do you still think there is a need for specific groups, like a specific bisexual group or a specific, uh, lesbian group, or is it more, more, are we more, um, is, is it more kind of queer and more diverse now? I think there are still really [00:39:30] specific experiences. I think that, I think the catchall term of queer covers a myriad of different experiences, which are quite specific and quite different to each other. You know, um, yeah, I mean I would think that, you know, the experience of a Maori trans woman or, um, is, um, quite different to my experience in life. Um, so I mean it's, I think, I think it's great if we can have an L L G B T or queer community that's broad and includes and encompasses everybody, [00:40:00] but I think people's experiences within that can be very specific and very different to each other. And so I think it's probably, probably still useful. Yeah, for people to, um, have, have different groups to have, I always think of the communities, um, the queer communities, you know, not, not separate communities as such. I think there's more overlap than there used to be. Hope so. You are a incredibly accomplished, uh, writer and oral historian. And I noted there was a, um, an article you wrote in the mid [00:40:30] nineties, uh, looking at three bisexual women talking about their lives and, and, uh, their sexuality. Why was it important to be visualizing the bisexual communities in, in kind of these, um, mainstream magazines? Like I think this is from Moore Magazine. Oh, because. Because by sex bisexuality felt invisible. Yeah, bisexuality felt invisible. And it was, it was also something that I had, as they say, these days, lived experience of, um, and [00:41:00] connections in the community. And, uh, yeah, so like in a way wanting to express my own experience and get my own experience out there, um, Yeah. And wanting to, always wanting to kind of increase, increase, increase understanding, increase understanding and acceptance and, um, yeah, help, help people understand that things aren't necessarily so, so binary or so simple. Yeah, I mean, it's amazing. I was thinking before this interview that it's amazing to me [00:41:30] these days that, um, L G B T L, gbt, like the B is always in there, right? The B is always in there. Yeah, even ho even when people are being transphobic and they wanna drop the T, they keep the B And to me that's, it is amazing that the B has become a really standard part of, um, the wider, the wider queer communities and so, and so accepted and so, and so normalized because it really, really, really wasn't, it really wasn't, um, wasn't visible at all or accept or [00:42:00] acceptable really. Uh, are these some of the things that also kind of drive you to do your oral histories? Because I mean, you, you are, um, incredibly ENC accomplished with your, your oral history projects. I mean, particularly, uh, you know, I'm thinking of this sex worker, um, oral history project you did. Uh, what, what is driving you in, in, in that kind of recording of histories? I think it's just really important to get things recorded that might not be recorded otherwise, especially, um, [00:42:30] From, and for communities that, um, whose voices haven't been heard so much, such as sex workers, such as trans women, such as bisexuals, who, whoever, you know, um, some stories definitely get to, um, take up a lot more, get a lot more of the spotlight than others. Some stories get a lot more of the spotlight, um, and other stories are. Um, invisibilized or kind of take, take place [00:43:00] in, take place in quiet little corners among, um, quite small, quite small groups, um, and aren't, aren't necessarily heard publicly. So not, yeah. Yeah. And so yeah, just kind of, just kind of that and wanting to, um, just, I guess always wanting to increase people's understanding and acceptance of each other. That sounds very naf not very political I think, but, um, But I think that's, I think that's true. Yeah. Wanting people's voices [00:43:30] to be heard and wanting people's stories to be documented while, while they're, while they're still around. I think, uh, from memory you did a, was it 18 and a half hours talking to Donna DeMilo? Oh God, Donna, yes, I did. Yes, I did. That must have been absolutely amazing. Yeah, it was so great. It was so great. Donna is, even when I did a pre-interview with, with Donna, um, the oral history concept of a pre-interview is you just meet, as I'm sure you know, you just meet, meet with the person and have a little chat and [00:44:00] don't, don't let them tell you any of their stories kind of thing. Well, my pre-interview with Donna, when I first introduced myself to her, oh, it was like three and a half hours. I just couldn't get away from her. She was so talkative. Yeah. But we, um, but once I got onto doing the interview proper, Um, Donna, I lived in Strathmore down at the bottom in Strathmore. Donna lived up the top in Strathmore in a little, um, state, state housing unit. Um, and we became very fond of each other. We became quite, quite close and, [00:44:30] um, I would go and do a couple of hours with her every. It was one particular day of the week that suited us both Tuesday or Thursday or something. And I would, um, drive up to her place. I'd usually take some, take some food for lunch and, um, we would, we would, um, I would, I would interview her and then we'd stop in the middle. Like we'd do an hour of interview and then stop and have some, have some Kai and, um, yeah, her, her little dog and her cat. Um, what were their [00:45:00] names? The dog. The dog was called Rap, I think. Um, and her cat. Damn. Can't remember her name, but the cat name. But they were both black. Um, so there were always the little, little animals running around. And she had a great, great little, little house with, um, she was very, very fond of, um, Egyptian things. And her house was full of Egyptian paraphernalia and had a lot of beautiful photos on the walls of, um, her, um, her old, her old friends, and in particular people who had passed away. There were a lot of beautiful photos of people on the people on the [00:45:30] wall, and, um, Yeah. Very, very fond memories of, um, of, of going up to see Dana week after week after week to do this insanely long interview. Yeah. And like the very last, um, I mean you talk about it being 18, 18 and a half hours, but if you listen to the last file of it, which I mean so long, surely no one will ever listen to all of that. They'd have to be very keen. But, um, the last, the last hour is just me being like, well, should we try and wrap this up now and then don't. Come up with another story and [00:46:00] then I, and she'd get through that, and then I'd be like, okay, so I think we're just about done here. And then, you know, there's like an hour, there's like an hour of me trying to finish the interview. Yeah. But I loved Anna. We loved each other. We, um, we, yeah. Yep. She was great. It, it's, it's a, it's a wonderful ton and, um, to have that now in the national library that people can access and listen to and just hear this, this history of Wellington and the trans community is, um, yeah, really, [00:46:30] really stunning. Oh, thank you. I mean, I love it that yeah, I, I felt very privileged to, to be able to meet these people. And Donna introduced me to a friend of hers in Auckland who was a little bit younger than her, but not that much. And so, yeah, to interview some of these older trans women about, about their lives. Um, such a, such a privilege. So, so great.

IRN: 3615
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1107355
TITLE: Remember Stonewall: Rally For Trans Healthcare
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VOICES: Ana Jurado; Anne Russell; Belén Cupeiro; Elle Brocherie; Tristan-Cordelia; Vera Ashborne; Will Hansen
INTERVIEWER: Will Hansen
TAGS: 2020s; Ana Jurado; Anne Russell; Aotearoa New Zealand; Argentina; Belén Cupeiro; Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Act 2021; Bob McCoskrie; Body mass index (BMI); Burnett Foundation Aotearoa; Carmen Rupe; China; Chrissy Witoko; Elle Brocherie; Family First NZ; Georgina Beyer; HIV / AIDS; International Bolshevik Tendency; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Libertarian socialism; Libertarianism; Mana wāhine Māori (book); Member of Parliament; Mexico; Michael Fowler Centre; National Schools Pride Week; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Ngahuia Te Awekotuku; Parliament buildings; Presbyterian; Pride Parade (Wellington); Progesterone; Pōneke Anti-Fascist Coalition; Resist Gender Education; Speak Up For Women NZ; Stonewall riots (1969); Stratford; Taranaki; Tristan-Cordelia; Vera Ashborne; Wellington; Wellington International Pride Parade (WIPP); Will Hansen; Yelling At Racist Dogs (YARD); anti-abortion; bipolar disorder; choice; egg_irl (reddit. com); fascism; gay liberation movement; gender dysphoria; gender fluid; gender reassignment surgery; gender-affirming surgery; health; health care; health rights; health system; hormone blockers; hysterectomy; kamp; non-binary; phalloplasty; primary school; puberty; puberty blockers; queer straight alliance (QSA); reddit. com; sex work; sexual assault; testosterone (T); top surgery; trans; trans woman; transfeminine; transgender; transmasculine
DATE: 1 July 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Parliament grounds, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the rally held on Saturday 1 July 2023 in Parliament grounds, Wellington. The rally was organised by Queer Endurance/Defiance. Special thanks to the organisers and participants for allowing the rally to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I am from the Wellington Leftist Queer Activist Group, queer Endurance and Defiance, um, I mc for, for the group at our rallies. Um, today we are meeting on the anniversary of Stonewall, um, as like a, a significant event in the fight for queer and trans rights. Um, we wrote a list of 18 demands for better transgender healthcare and ROA last year and presented it to [00:00:30] the ministers of health. Um, didn't really get anything good back from them. Um, there was another trans healthcare rally in early February, um, organized by another really great group of activists. Um, and we had heard from a lot of people at that rally, um, just about this intense struggles, um, they've had with the healthcare system. And from our own experience, we've, we've seen this as well. Um, so we wanted to come to Parliament, um, on like, you know, significant time, um, [00:01:00] and represent these demands publicly. Um, knowing that we're in the lead up to an election season where there's gonna be key. Um, and also recognizing that we're not really gonna get any of these demands without significant changes in increasing funding to the healthcare system as a whole. If you could sum up for me just in a couple sentences, if that's not too tricky a question, what the 18 demands are all about? Yeah. They basically boil down to two main things, which is, um, informed consent for hor replacement therapy, which [00:01:30] means that you go to a doctor, you tell your doctor, um, I, you know, your doctor ensures, makes sure that you know what you're asking for, and. Like, you don't have to go and get like a psychiatric assessment or an endocrinology assessment to get h r t. Um, so that's the first one. And then the second one is decent funding for, um, gender affirming surgeries. Because at the moment there is very little gender affirming surgery. And New Zealand wait lists for some procedures are decades long. Um, and we want [00:02:00] to deal with that, like increased funding and just have people trained to do them. Uh, we only have one person doing, um, genital reassignment surgery in New Zealand at the moment, which is not enough. Um, and for top surgery, um, for trans men, the situation is a little better, but it's not good enough either. Um, so that's the second one. Um, yeah. And then thirdly, just ensuring that teenagers have access to puberty blockers, um, with a kind of informed consent, but with some like assessment involved. Um, that's [00:02:30] cause it's a really important right. Um, puberty blockers are not really enough to transition, but they're an important start. Um, they. Um, allow people not to go through the wrong pivot. Um, and there are a lot of people trying to stare up fair mongering, uh, fair around blockies, so that's important too. Yeah. Cool. Do you have time for one more quick question? Oh, listen. Um, my last question was just gonna be, and why is Stonewall an important date to have this on? Um, so while Stonewall wasn't the start of the [00:03:00] movement for queer liberation, even in, in sort of modern times, even in the last a hundred years, um, it was a really attention getting time and it also has become a focal point and a symbol for the queer community. Um, and it's, it's, it's the reason why Pride is in June in the usa. Um, and it has started to, it has sort of become an internationally recognized occasion in recent years. And it was a time where [00:03:30] queer and queer people led particularly by trans women of color. Fought back against the cops, um, on their own terms. And that's something that in queer Endurance Defiance, we really value not waiting for the system to do things for us because they won't, but really fighting to do things for ourselves. Hi, I'm Al I'm, so, I'm an organizer with Q E D and also with the International BOL Tenancy. Um, I'm here today while we're just setting up, uh, for [00:04:00] a trans rights rally commemorating Stonewall outside of Parliament. Uh, so this is an event to, um, talk about the history of the Stonewall movement and the queer Rights movement in general, and, um, raised some specific demands about the state of trans healthcare in New Zealand to oday. Why are these demands important to you personally? I think these demands are important to most trans people. I guess the state of trans healthcare and New Zealand, um, pretty dire [00:04:30] right now. Access is extremely patchy in different regions. They're extremely long wait times, especially for gender affirming surgery. Puberty blockers are hard to access in most locations around the country. Um, and yeah, the government parties like to say that they care about us, so we just really want to, um, tell them if they care about us, this is what you need to do for us. Awesome. And can you tell me a little bit more about Queer Endurance Defiance and how that came about? Sure. [00:05:00] So we are a, um, radical queer rights group that came together back in 2021. Uh, that was out of conversations about the applied ADE and the role of the military police and copulates and that, um, in that event. So we came together to oppose the involvement of military and police outside events. Uh, we never actually did much on that issue because there has not been a Wellington Pride parade since 2021. But, uh, our first major [00:05:30] event was organizing as part of the B D M R R bill against a, um, meeting held by the, any trans group, speak up for a woman at the Michael Fowler Center. And we've, um, continued to run that kind of event in the years since then. And, um, Do a bit of other work around submissions to parliament, suggestions for supplementary audit papers, that kind of thing. But our main focus has always been on mass actions of this kind that we're doing here [00:06:00] today. And how does it feel when you come to mass actions like this? Oh, it feels pretty good. Yeah. To, um, to see the level of support that we have in this country, mobilized and turning up in support of, um, these demands is really good to see. And so you're standing in front of me in a fluro, um, vest today. Can you tell me, uh, what's the story behind that? There's a few fluro vests dotted around in a couple green ones too. And you're, you're in orange? Yeah. So, um, the orange vests are for Marshalls, the green vests are for medics. We don't expect [00:06:30] any, um, trouble here today, but it's just, it pays to be prepared in case. Can you tell me, um, what the scene you're seeing around you right now is? Well, I see a lot of beautiful people, um, mostly just reclining and waiting for two o'clock to arrive. Can you describe some of the, the signs and, um, outfits that people have gone on? There's a few pirate flags around. I noticed the pirate flags. Um, the ones I noticed in particular are, uh, in relation to healthcare, um, which really [00:07:00] resonates to me personally, um, because I would like to be treated fairly in healthcare too. Thank you very much actually. And I forgot to ask you, would you please introduce yourself and tell me why you are here today? Oh, well, um, um, I am Margot and I am a woman of transgender experience. Um, and I'd say I'm here today because this is an issue that affects me directly as well as a lot of my other brothers, siblings and babies. Mm-hmm. [00:07:30] Um, do you, have you already read the, um, health demands that Q E D have put out? I have, I have, and I actually agree with 'em wholeheartedly. Mm. Can you tell me, are there any in particular that strike a chord with you? Mostly choice. Um, I think the main problem is that, you know, we have sort of like a, a, a system where there's a, a considerable amount of like condescension involved from like healthcare providers. And they don't actually take our healthcare [00:08:00] into account. Preferring to, um, essentially preferring to like rely upon research, which is usually 20 years out of date. It's not fit for our, for purpose for us. And more than not, I don't think they, there's a lot of element of skepticism as to why we even asked for healthcare in the first place. And I think a big part of that is that I don't even believe that our identities are valid and they say healthcare is required. Um, so given that it is an election year, is there anything you'd, like any [00:08:30] politicians listening to this, um, this audio to know? Um, I would say the very bare minimum, don't start following what's going on overseas. Um, like we are very well aware that there is, um, a wave of anti-trans gender rhetoric going overseas. A lot of it with extreme success, um, and New Zealand should at least be an example where we are not going to fall down that road because it will only end up in misery [00:09:00] and de base our politics. Mm. Uh, Kiara, my name is Anne. Um, I'm a sort of activist about town and, um, yeah, this event today is to commemorate the Stonewall anniversary and to also hand over some demands about trans healthcare to the government, well, in an, in a symbolic sort of way. So, great stuff. Um, how, so you are wearing a, um, orange vest that I'm told is for the marshals. So are you a member of QE there? Uh, I'm not exactly a member, um, [00:09:30] but I'm kind of affiliated. I am a member of the, um, anti-fascist coalition here. So, um, we do, we do a lot of overlap work and I mean, marshaling is pretty easy, so I was just like, yep, I'll, I'll try help out. And can you tell me more about that important overlap between, uh, the work that QE is doing and anti-fascist work in general? Uh, well, we can see that a lot of the current trench of fascism, um, a lot of it in the US and the uk, but also um, in Roach over here, a lot of it is [00:10:00] anti-trans. Um, and I mean, if you want to impose a colonial aggressive war like state, one of the ways to get people kind of hyped up to do that is to get them to feel really rigid about kind of, People's bodies and about their own bodies and constantly be doing that kind of policing. Um, so it's not really surprising that they're very rigid about gender. And also stuff like kind of, um, you know, control over reproduction. I mean, and a lot of the anti-trans panic around, um, trans masks. Of course there's a lot of [00:10:30] anxiety about fertility and like, no, the trans are stealing away these women whose role is to be pregnant all the time. So, um, yeah, like lots, lots of overlap. It's, um, yeah, I mean like trans people on the front lines of this at the moment, so, yeah. Um, and if you're okay with me identifying, uh, this, the last time you came up with the brilliant chant, boring transfers based on re Jacob, is that, is that correct? Yeah, uh, yeah. One of the, um, techniques that I've learned [00:11:00] through anti-fascism, I mean like I've learned this through being at protests over time as well, but, um, there's a great technique in anti-fascist organizing called Yarding, which is yelling at racist dogs. And instead of, um, So it's kind of like, instead of getting mad at the fascist, you, you get weird, like you say weird things and they don't know how to react to them. So there was a guy who came over to the last rally kind of trying to yell at us, and I just went up to him and started singing. And if those feet to an inch ancient times, walk upon England's Mountains green. And he, he was like, it's not fucking [00:11:30] England. Um, but they, they don't know how to deal with it. So like, it's fun. It's fun singing songs. It's fun making up parodies. So yeah, generally ENT Thirst, Koto Koto, Koto Koto. [00:12:00] Welcome to Remember Stonewall, A Rally for Trans Healthcare and Queer Liberation. It's a beautiful day and I'm really happy to see you all here. We are going to open with a cardiac here, followed by a safety briefing, and then we'll have some speeches followed by an open mic, and finally some music. So I will hand over to my comrade, Sarah to open us in the cardiac[00:12:30] queer endurance. Defiance [00:13:00] to queer endurance and defiance are left-wing activist group. Based into formed in 2021 last year, we drafted a list of 18 demands for transgender healthcare in alt odo, which we published via an open letter and also sent to both ministers of health. We have have some copies, um, to pass around who is passing those around? We sent this to both ministers of health. Last year, [00:13:30] each minister applied that trans healthcare was the responsibility of the other minister, so the matter went nowhere. Then on the 11th of February this year, another group of awesome trans rates activists led to marches for trans healthcare, one here and one in Tamma at the open mic that day, we heard speaker after speaker recount the impact that in inadequate healthcare was having on their lives from doctors gate keeping hormone [00:14:00] replacement therapy to surgery wait lists several decades long. Since that day, our group has primarily focused on countering transphobic rallies, but we cannot just be reactive. We have to be proactive in pushing for our rights. We've chosen today to make this demonstration as the anniversary of the Stonewall Riots, which lasted from the 28th of June to the 3rd of July in New York City u usa, and are commonly recognized as a turning point in the fight for queer liberation.[00:14:30] We have invited Will from the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand to PU or art, um, and we had also invited Mel from New Zealand Council of Trade Unions. Uh, unfortunately Mel is unwell and was not able to make it today. Um, but will, however, will be here to talk about the history of queer rights activism, members of queer insurance and defiance will then speak. And present our demands and talk about how we, we feel best to achieve them. Before we [00:15:00] open the mic for anyone present to talk about your experiences trying to access transgender healthcare, um, parliament security have advised us we're not allowed to people crossing this barrier. So what we'll do for the open mic is we'll get people to come and speak just in front of the barrier. Um, and we will hand you the mic, um, after which we will have some music. Um, I am going to hand over to Will now. Thank you. Sorry. Sorry. Before I hand over to William, um, safety briefing, which we should have done earlier.[00:15:30] Thank you everyone for coming and my name is Lial. I'm one of the medics here today. We're a green vest. If you need a Marshall. They are an orange vests. We're not expecting anything major today, so keep an eye out for each other. Look after each other. If you see anything, let us know and we'll do our best to sort it out for you. If anything truly ba bad happens, call 1 1 1 straight away. Don't wait for us. And yeah, have a good, safe time. Look out for each other. Welcome will [00:16:00] Koto. Uh, my name's Will. I'm a trans man. I'm a trustee of AKA ro, the Lesbian Gay Archives of New Zealand, and I'm so proud to be here supporting QE d on behalf of the archives. So the Stonewall riots were a momentous event in our history, and super important, and I'm very proud that we're honoring them today. But queer activism in Al Tiera did not start with Stonewall, and it didn't start with gay liberation before Stonewall ROA was home to [00:16:30] communities of queer people. So consolidated that we had our own culture, our own gathering places, and even a shared language. We named ourselves camp, and camp meant all of us, not just cisgender gays and lesbians. Sex workers were a huge part of camp communities and trans women, especially Maori trans women, we're our leaders. We know about Kamen Rupe and Krissy. We Toko, who owned bars that created spaces for us [00:17:00] to be free. But there were also so many other lesser Owen Trans women and other trans people who were open, who were not hiding, who were proud. And these are the camp roots of our gay liberation camp. Activism may not have looked like marching down the streets with placards or writing petitions to Parliament, but it existed and it was powerful. Camp communities had no chairperson, no secretary or treasurer, but we came together for survival. When we were attacked, we [00:17:30] fought back. We made room for ourselves, our friends, and our lovers. Whether it was two tables at the bistro bar, a flattened new town, or a place to stand on Marion Street, we all know the indomitable Tuku who founded the first orphan gay liberation front, March, 1972, when she was denied a visa to the USA because of her sexual deviancy. And we have a hell of a lot to thank her for, but that isn't the full story. How did NYA find out about gay liberation in the [00:18:00] first place? From her friend Sally, a trans feminine person and sex worker. In her own book, Manah Maori Noya explains how she was part of camp communities. She writes with adoration about her friends who were trans, and she states that it was her friend Sally, who had learned about gay liberation on a visit to Sydney and suggested to NAIA that something had to be done. We don't know a lot about Sally. There aren't very many records of her. And the, the part she played in this history was small, but it was so [00:18:30] important and her story is no longer gonna be erased. Turfs have tried to bury this history, but our gay liberation found that now herself has made it clear that our communities are stronger together, that we have always been united. That camp means all of us together. I've printed a bunch of signs, uh, with a handful of various trans figures from New Zealand's past, um, that I think we need to honor. So while we rightly celebrate Stonewall and the Juah and Carmen and Chrissy, I want us also to celebrate [00:19:00] Sally and the countless others trans ancestors whose shoulders we stand on. Thank you Kia. Uh, I'm now going to invite Kate from Corian Defiance, um, to read our list of demands. Everyone [00:19:30] got 18 demands for you all here. Well, not for you all. You, you're not the ones implementing them, but, you know, um, we call on to far order Health New Zealand to implement the following urgent healthcare demands. Number one, hormone replacement therapy. Prescriptions for gender transition should be available in all primary care practices for patients aged 18 and over[00:20:00] two. These H R T prescriptions should be provided on a basis of informed consent alone. I e No therapists letter should be required. No appointment with an endocrinologist should be required. Comprehensive advisory H R T prescription guidelines should be developed and made available to both doctors and patients to help [00:20:30] doctors and patients without prior experience in this area. Judge medication options dos, risk factors, et cetera. Funded H R T prescription options should include all reputable H R T medications and use internationally hormone blocker. [00:21:00] Prescriptions should be available in all primary care practices. Hormone blockers should be prescribed to all trans youth on the basis of informed consent and a therapist's evaluation. Comprehensive advisory hormone blocker prescription guidelines should be developed and made available to all doctors and patients.[00:21:30] Gender affirming surgery referrals should be available in all primary care practices. Gender affirming surgery should be provided on the sole basis of an informed consent process over an appropriate duration. Yay. Funding for [00:22:00] gender affirming surgery is including for genitals, chest and face, and extending to all safe. Gender affirming surgical procedures should be widely available. Gender affirming surgery funding should match demand training for gender affirming surgery practitioners should be planned to match modeled future demand[00:22:30] where demand for gender affirming surgery exceeds national capacity Funding should include international travel fee fees, and pricing of reputable overseas surgeons. Comprehensive advisory, gender affirming surgery guidelines should be developed and made available to referring doctors and patients.[00:23:00] Voice therapy and hear removal services should be available and funded throughout New Zealand. With provides with providers for both available in urban centers, voice therapy, and hear removal. Referrals should be on the basis of informed consent. Solely principles should be developed at a national level for respectful [00:23:30] and non-discriminatory treatment of trans patients to be implemented in all sections of the health system. These reforms should be carried out under the responsibility of a national trans health leadership body formed for this purpose and in consultation with trans communities around the country. Yay at our demands. But how do [00:24:00] we achieve them? We're not going to get all of our demands without a radical change to the healthcare system because the system is chronically underfunded as it is. Our nurses worked tirelessly and selflessly to get us through the first critical stages of the Covid Pandemic. We would've had thousands more deaths without their efforts, and yet the government has not paid them fairly for this work[00:24:30] has acted in bad faith throughout recent pain negotiations with the result that many alert nurses have left who are better paying jobs overseas. The last time I had to visit the emergency ward at Wellington Hospital earlier this year, the fruits of the shortage were on display with insufficient beds and far too few staff who, despite their best efforts, Had to leave patients waiting for hours in corridors or crowded wards for urgent care.[00:25:00] Our nurses and doctors deserve better. This is not good enough, and we recognize that our community is not going to get the significant increases to transgender healthcare provision that we so vitally need without a new approach to how we fund and staff the whole of the public health system. We are absolutely not proposing taking money away from cancer treatment and similar services to [00:25:30] fund trans healthcare. We want better healthcare for everyone. The fact is, neither parliament nor street action can achieve this alone. We can vote in the upcoming election for parties who say they will treat health workers and the health system better, and I encourage everyone to do so, but we know from past experience that they will only keep those promises if we show up in public to raise our [00:26:00] voices and make sure they deliver. Woo. We also know that anti-trans conservatives and antique conservatives are already targeting gender affirming policies for children and adolescents. At a recent evangelical political summit in Auckland Family First Leader, Bob McCroskey outlined a plan for this country's anti-trans hate groups to follow the strategy of the anti-abortion campaign in the usa, beginning with what they [00:26:30] see too, right? They proposed beginning with what they see as small winnable fights, and they have identified gender expression in primary schools as the first of these, followed by secondary schools Supreme. They have targeted letter writing and social media campaigns against schools running Pride weeks. They're also clearly targeting the provision of puberty blockers. We saw this in [00:27:00] Brian Tam's. Ridiculous claims that the warehouse was selling blockers if only an attempt to stir up baseless fair. If we end up with a conservative government later this year, or more conservative government, they're likely to target blockers and force trans teens to undergo the wrong puberty for their gender. Blockers are already a compromise. They allow us to put off puberty until 18 much later than when [00:27:30] most people go through this process. I would've loved to have had this compromise available to me 20 years ago, and yet this compromise, despite being acknowledged by Tofa aura as safe and reversible is the target of a fair campaign. Tofa Aura admitted that they took down from their website their own sound advice, that blockers are safe and reversible, purely because they've been bombarded with complaints from Transphobes.[00:28:00] And despite the fact that Tofa Order acknowledges the advice they removed is correct, our enemies are already celebrating Victors victories in this area to push back. We need to make our voices louder. We need to drown out their complaints with the sound of our own existence, our own endurance, our own defiance. We are going to have to stand up to email officials. To complain to [00:28:30] media organizations when they print misinformation, even knowing that each individual complaint or email will be ignored. We need the weight of our numbers, the power of our love in solidarity to prevail. To expand on this, I invite Vera to speak now, um, Koto. Uh, my name is Vera Ashburn and I am a member of Q E D [00:29:00] and also of the international Bolshevik tendency. It is very, very strange being on this side of the fence. Uh, please ignore the flags. They do not represent me in any way. Our demands, as you have heard, uh, for a radical overhaul of trans healthcare under the oversight of a national organization, both representing and working closely with trans communities. That can [00:29:30] only happen as part of a broader increase in resourcing for healthcare in New Zealand. On a broad scale, what I'm gonna talk about is how we think we should get there. We need to build a movement with mass support, advocating for our reforms to the government and opposition parties, and also supporting grassroots efforts in the healthcare sector to improve queer health. Now, I don't like [00:30:00] this any more than you will I, I am a communist, and my first instinct is always going to be overthrow the state. But if we want to achieve reform without needing to go through an entire revolution, first, we need to get politicians to take up this issue. Now part of that is mobilizing numbers and showing that trans lives and health are an issue that people care about. Part of it is [00:30:30] mobilizing our connections, getting organizations who work with Parliament to raise these questions. The goal is to convince politicians that it's in their interests to deliver real and meaningful reforms, because we won't go away until they do. And therein lies the problem. How to convince them that they need to make us go away. Obviously, demonstrations are one method and one that we partly [00:31:00] endorse. You're all here at one that we called, so I'm well on you. Um, demonstrations make a point, but there needs to be something behind them. Ideally it would be more militant forms of collective action, some kind of force such as striking to back up the demands. But we're not there yet, apart from anything else. Most forms of militant struggle, that is to say effective struggle are illegal in this country. So instead, we are aiming here essentially to apply pressure on [00:31:30] the political system through legal means, which means protests, but it also means petitions. Writing letters to politicians and other means to present ourselves as a significant enough block in civil society that parliamentarians feel a need to take us seriously. A, a lot of that is just making ourselves look as big as possible, and that means inevitably we need to build alliances and form coalitions. Although we will undoubtedly be its main leadership, this isn't [00:32:00] really a fight that trans people can wage just by ourselves. We're a small minority. It shouldn't be on us to bear the entire weight of that struggle. And if it's just us, we're unlikely to win. If we're to be successful, we have to build as broader base of support as possible. Q e D was founded as a coalition of members of various groups, um, and ideologies around a common commitment to queer rights through struggle that has in turn [00:32:30] sought to build coalitions with other forces to achieve meaningful change. We've had quite a lot of solidarity from the unions and, um, quite a number of broader queer organizations are interested in our demands. Uh, rainbow Wellington, I think has a petition going if you haven't seen it. Um, and that's, that's all to the good. Um, for us in the international swar tendency, these kinds of alliances are on a broad base, are called United fronts. They're organized on a demand or a set of demands that we agree are [00:33:00] necessary, and we invite anyone who supports those demands to work with us, to campaign for them. Now, and this is the point that all that stuff was building towards. So sorry for drawing it out. Um, that doesn't have to be just leftists either. Even if, as TRS said, most of q e D is leftists, um, this isn't just a fight for leftists to wage. Um, the point of these kinds of united fronts is to bring in as wider group of people to fight for the demand as possible. Um, [00:33:30] that's civil society unions. So civil society groups, the unions, uh, people not otherwise political and even people that we might otherwise consider political opponents should be considered potential allies if they agree with our demands and they'll help us campaign for them. Ultimately the aim of this is to make a block so large that it can't be ignored by the politicians, but it's not enough simply to get their attention, nor just to vote for the ones making the bigger promises. [00:34:00] Winning a campaign like this is a matter of ongoing pressure. Even if the parties you think are likely to make positive change for trans people win the election, I guarantee you that they will not see us as a priority unless we keep on showing up until they can't ignore us anymore. If this campaign is to have any success, it has to go on longer than just the upcoming election [00:34:30] period. This is long haul work. If you're interested in lending a hand to that work, come talk to us. The more of us there are, the stronger there will be. And um, one final thing before I hand the mic back over. Next week I have my first appointment forum, voice therapy. It took me 15 months from the date of application to get here and 12 of that was just trying to find out [00:35:00] whether my referral had been accepted. This is not good enough. We need change. Thank you, Kiata. That was amazing. I would next like to welcome my comrade, Sarah to talk about her experience as a healthcare provider. Koto [00:35:30] Coursera, are she her pronouns? I'm a member of the International Socialist Organization and of Queer Endurance Defiance. I'm queer and I'm proud of my identity as a transgender woman. Thank you. I'm also a critical care paramedic, and I'm here to make a contribution to the corridor around healthcare, around the healthcare system. I'd like to draw on my experience working within that system to highlight four critical weaknesses and [00:36:00] touch on what we might do to address them. First, there's an insufficiency of training for healthcare workers specific to gender identity and recognition, acknowledgement, healthcare needs and healthcare solutions. This is beginning to change thanks to our visibility and ongoing mahi advocating for acknowledgement of our humanity. But overall, the pace of improvement looks and feels glacial. Second, and I'm sorry to say biological essentialism is [00:36:30] baked in into many aspects of the healthcare infrastructure. An example is a pre-hospital electronic patient documentation system that despite half a decade of feedback, has stubbornly remained as only identifying patients by sex from one of the following four categories, and I apologize in advance for how this is gonna sound, but they are male, female, unknown, and indeterminate. This is honestly a tone deaf failure to recognize [00:37:00] social progress. ROA Stats New Zealand has developed a significantly better, though it still could be improved categorization approach, which could immediately be adopted across the health sector. Third, the under resourcing and resource mismanagement prevalent across the healthcare sector leads healthcare workers to be overworked and overstressed. The result is what's called compassion fatigue. Our clinicians have often not had their own mental and physical health needs adequately met, [00:37:30] and they are exhausted. Fourth, there are insufficient patient guided treatment approaches and inadequate referral pathways. Health is complex and no single worker could ever be an expert of every single aspect of healthcare. That's okay. S but two solutions are needed for that challenge. First, clear guidelines can empower GPS and their patients to keep many of the decisions within the primary health setting. And when a patient is [00:38:00] referred to a specialist, that pathway needs to be able to accept a patient and continue care within a reasonable timeframe. Trans people currently suffer from a lack of functioning of either solution, and you've heard some stories of failures in both of those respects just today. So what can be done? The training of new healthcare workers must include significant material, acknowledging the existence and the healthcare needs of transgender people.[00:38:30] Health infrastructure needs to be bought into the 21st century, including ways of documenting people's identities that aren't demeaning. We need to employ way more staff across every field of health, and we need the working conditions of those staff to be dramatically improved so they don't burn out and. We need good [00:39:00] patient-centered guidelines for the treatment of transgender patients within primary health and good resourcing of specialist fields to ensure we don't die of old age while waiting for a referral. Now, I'd love to see executive managers, board members, and government ministers be held accountable for decades of gaslighting healthcare workers for failures that are systemic. I'd love all areas of the healthcare system to be honest with the public about its failures. I'd love to see the government tax capital [00:39:30] gains tax, housing portfolios, and luxury yacht, wealth and tax companies, and then use that money to properly fund our health system for the benefit of all. None of QEDs healthcare demands needs decrease anyone else's quality of healthcare. In the process of ensuring there are enough resources to meet these demands, the government can ensure the healthcare system is funded to meet everyone's needs. We can demand and increased [00:40:00] resourcing of the entire healthcare system. We can demand a better life for everyone now. So we're gonna have an open mic now. Um, what I would ask is that, um, the person speaking stand here, um, if you want to, to speak, um, rather than just have people put, put up their [00:40:30] hands and try and like pick them out in an order. Um, if we could have people stand. In a queue like this, that would be awesome cuz it makes our job a lot easier. Um, so we have a first volunteer to speak, um, and anyone else who wants to speak, um, essentially come along here and, and that'll be great. Thank you for everyone to come here and I'm an international student. Come China and I come, I arrived in New Zealand just [00:41:00] two days ago. I, I attend this meeting just for the people who suffered in China for this China's fuck damn policy, this policy block, the transgenders medicine, you know, that kind of medicine from import and chi mining, transgenders in China, suicide due to this social pressure and their feminist pressure and their, those pressure. And many guys in the China and also France [00:41:30] is suffered too. And they, and many of them also suicide and they will be, Send to some, you know, some organization to do some convert, and they must force them to change their identity. That is intolerable. Fuck you, Chinese government, fuck you, and this terrorist. And I'm not afraid to stand here and [00:42:00] express myself, and I think it is my duty to do this. No, I'm the person who, like the person who liked, you know, standing in front of a tank safe for Steward Force M Square, 1989, just like that mess. Stand in front of a tank and that tank will please, we just run over from you. And [00:42:30] if they want, attack trans rights and attack the LBTs, right? And attack rights. And just over many people, not many people who. Intend to show that you know, some, you know, you know, gay or LGBTQ is made by some political reason, white left or something else [00:43:00] that's fuck conservatives do. But the really thing is that more than medication were murders. Biological proofs show that the LGBTQs people's gender and their sexual orientation is formed before they are know their gay or their transgender, and this, and if they know about their sexual orientation or gender, is no way to return this and no way to converse this. This is a scientific proof and we [00:43:30] should accept that, and this is the final weapon for the discrimination and the evidence to prove ourself. And for another reason is we need to change this social, whole social system. Um, a libertarian socialist and anarchist. It is too hard to organize in China, but I must speak my voice. I must be by voice over brought to you that many people know the situation about LGBTQ people in China. Don't [00:44:00] be cheat, don't be treated by the Chinese government. They are bunch of bastard and they just, they totally terror state should be over by the working people and the working people should established their all everyday and they established coming government, the state now. Thank you. Thank you for [00:44:30] speaking. Welcome. Hello. Let me just step over that. Um, I'm Vida. This is my support puppy and, uh, partner Quinn. Um, and I use he him pronouns and about since I was 10 for, so for about six years now, I've known that I was trans. From the day I came out to my class, to the day I came out to my parents, I was immediately shut [00:45:00] out trans healthcare and not being able to get, it isn't just about the doctors or the law, it's about everybody around us who, for how many years we've been here, still don't think we're here. So regardless of what they say, regardless of them denying our existence, we're here and we're loud. Just two months ago, I moved out from my parents' house and I'm in a safe environment and the first thing I thought that would, [00:45:30] that I would be able to possibly even maybe get. Was access to be able to start blockers start t. But no, I'm still through therapy. I'm still trying to get the help I need and it's been, what, six years to get any recognition possible. There was one point that I was told my gender identity is because of my trauma. I'm more than my trauma, more than my gender. I'm a human fucking being, and I'm [00:46:00] proud. I promise you all. We may not be outta the words, but we will be soon. And in the words of a nineties activism group, queer nation, we're here, we're queer, get used to it. Got it. So that was beautiful. Um, one thing I do want to acknowledge, like we, because we are talking about experiences with the healthcare system, [00:46:30] and often those are pretty dark cause they, they treat us not very well. Um, if, if anything, you know, I want people to encourage, to speak openly, um, about what you're going through. Um, if anyone in the audience, like is, is struggling with what we're talking about, just like with the depth of it, um, or if it triggers anything, um, I'd recommend like welcome you to approach the marshals if you're struggling and you need any support. Um, yeah, because [00:47:00] we will, we need to look after each other cuz no one else is gonna do it for us. Um, and we are here to do that. Kiara, Kiara, uh, my name is Caden. I go by he, him z Zm and she her pronouns. Um, I am a trans mask, non-binary person. I have been transitioning for. Uh, about six or seven years now it's getting to that point where I don't even remember where it [00:47:30] started. Um, and I'm in a queer relationship with a trans woman known as Gwen. She could make it today cuz she is busy working. But, um, she works as, uh, she works as a mental health care nurse and she has had her own difficulties with, um, dealing with getting, uh, mental, I mean medical healthcare. Um, she fought [00:48:00] for several years to get a prescription for progesterone, um, going back and forth with the, um, with Wellington's own, um, endocrinologist who would often just say, no, no, we can't do that. There's not enough, there's not enough studies into, into this. We don't know if it really works and the risk is too much. Even though Gwen, who is a nurse and [00:48:30] has, uh, access to uh, scholarly studies on progesterone for transgender women would present all the evidence in front of this endocrinologist. It still wasn't enough. Thankfully, Gwen is now on progesterone. Yeah, and it's been, it's been really, it's been really great for her. Um, but she still [00:49:00] struggles a lot with, um, her other problems with dysphoria and such. Um, at the moment, she's really trying to find a way to get laser hair removal to help with her body dysphoria and stuff. Um, with my own, um, with my own. Struggles in, in trans healthcare. Um, I, I am booked in [00:49:30] on 12th of July for my hysterectomy, which is a huge thing that I have wanted for a very long time, where before I even came out as trans, I went to my doctor as a 20 year old and said, Hey, um, could I get a hysterectomy? I'm terrified of childbirth. I don't want to have children. And they said, no, wait till you're older. What if you, what if you have, what if you find a [00:50:00] person who wants to have kids with you? As if, as if my body is something for them to decide what I do with. But now I'm getting it, which is great. Unfortunately it has been quite a weight though, which not so great. Um, and as far as I know, only Wellington and Auckland offer offer hysterectomy as gender affirming care [00:50:30] should be the whole of New Zealand. Yes. Um, I also want to speak to other gender affirming, um, surgeries. Um, as in the future, I hope to one day get phalloplasty done, which is very hard to find any surgeons who will do that. Yes, I, I was hoping that I could maybe one day go to Thailand cuz everybody says that Thailand is the place to go for your gender affirming. Uh, surgeries, but then I found out [00:51:00] that they don't act, they don't even have phalloplasty surgeons there. So now what? So, um, I will let you all know what happens with phalloplasty in the future, but um, yeah, I just wanted to speak to how, um, difficult getting medical care is in roa, um, for both trans masks and trans feminine people. And that even if you have all of the like credentials, even as a [00:51:30] healthcare professional and worker, um, they will still gatekeep you out. But yeah, that's what I wanted to speak to. Kiara, thank you for everyone. Okay, welcome. Step over the sign here. Woo. I'm a little chilly, but thoughts don't freeze, so I'll be fine. Um, I'm your basically favorite, uh, pixie pirate, [00:52:00] non-binary bisexual. So in other terms, I'm just a whore. Um, that's a joke. I've actually been with the same partner for the past four years. Um, she is, I I love my girlfriend. She's amazing. Uh, she is trans, uh, trans woman. Uh, she came out last year to me about it and I was like, oh, fantastic. You know, I get the best of both worlds. It's great. Um, and, [00:52:30] um, Her journey's not been great. Uh, she, she's from a conservative family and she's worked very hard to be where she is at. She's on her hormones and she's gorgeous and she's grown boobs, which are great. Sorry. And, um, but Teddy, sorry. Um, exactly, exactly. And um, but the problem is she [00:53:00] hasn't had proper access to therapy. She hasn't had access to voice therapy. She's had to sink $300 into laser hair removal, and that's only on her face. She does not have the care that she needs. To be happy. She suffers with dysphoria every single day, and it's so crushing to watch my girlfriend not like herself and not love herself. So the healthcare system needs to change. [00:53:30] I love my girlfriend. For me, I as non-binary, I suffer with really bad chest dysphoria today. I was having a good boob day, hence the, uh, you know, corset. But I'll probably go home today and be like, oh shit, I really wish I hadn't done that, but, and I would love to have top surgery. I would love it. I know people who would want to have a hysterectomy. And my brother is here with me today. Sorry. I know I'm talking about you. I love you. Um, he wants a [00:54:00] hysterectomy. He wants top surgery, and he was very fortunate to be fast tracked on hormones because my dad is a doctor. And so with our connections, we can do it, but no other person could. And that sucks. We need to have things fast tracked. We need to get the care that we need, but we need to look after our doctors and our nurses. My dad at the moment is working five days a week, eight plus hours a day because his practice is understaffed. He comes home, [00:54:30] he's stressed. He's tired and it makes my mom hate him a little bit because he's just, you know, a grumpy old man. But I love him. He's okay. Uh, my mom is a nurse and she's a fantastic nurse and I love her so much. And she works at private hospitals where she does look after people who have had top surgery and who have hysterectomies, but she wants more trans care in her hospital system. And my dad wants more trans care in his doctor's practice, but he is met with [00:55:00] transphobic homophobic practice managers, which stop him from being able to do his job. I think I just wanna say that we just need to have a radical change in the whole health system, but it starts with looking after our doctors and our nurses so that they are happy and that they can do the job. Fulfillingly. Thank you. Oh, welcome.[00:55:30] Um, I'm Alex. I'm 15 and I'm gender fluid, so I go by any pronouns. Um, I'm so nervous, but I just wanted to talk about, I grew up in a very Christian Presbyterian town, a rural town, Stratford in Taranaki, and everyone was very, um, interesting when I came out and started, um, experimenting with different things and also my parents were like, oh no. Um, [00:56:00] I am no longer living with my parents and I'm here. And still I've experienced a lot of, like, I thought Wellington would be a lot different. It's not, there's still a lot of, um, hatred and it's really encouraging to know that, um, sort of communities like this, we just push through it through love. And that's a really, like, I think you should all be very proud of that for rather than hating and hating and hating, we are pushing through with our [00:56:30] love, which is the best way to fight it. Um, and we've been doing it for ages. We've been doing it for ages. And I think our words, I think that, um, I think it's really awesome what's going on. And I, I, I really hate that there is so much injustice in this country to do with, um, sexual assault victims who are [00:57:00] trans. I've found a lot. It's too much. It's too much. Um, I've experienced it. I know people have experienced it. People who will not accept anyone else for their body or what they want with their body. And it's dumb. I hate it. I hate it so much. And I wish that. We would have more acceptance because that's all we need. We don't need to, no one needs to be us. No one needs to understand us. We just need to be accepted and for our [00:57:30] existence to be equalized. So we should stand proud and we are proud and I, I'm glad that we are. So that's all. Thank you. Um, I'm just gonna count how many people we've got. Uh, 1, 2, 3, 4. Okay. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. That's awesome. It is getting colder. So we've got five people. Um, if anyone else desperately wants to [00:58:00] speak as well, we, we've got room for one or two more people to join the queue. Um, otherwise we will start some music after the next five people. If anyone is freezing cold, um, and needs like a warm some warmth, um, talk to one of the marshals and we will do what we can. Uh, I've got a towel that someone can wear if you're really cold. Um, yeah. I'm so sorry. It really was beautiful before the sun's just going right. Um, welcome. Uh, hello. Hello. My name's Amanda. [00:58:30] I'm she, her, I figured out I was trans on midnight of New Year's Day 2020 New Year, new me. Um, I was browsing Reddit because I was trying desperately to like stay awake so I could see the clock tick over and like, I found this place called egg i r l, and uh, I was like, that was really relatable, huh? I got very lucky with my medical [00:59:00] transition. I, um, it took me exactly one, one year and four months to receive hormones and apparently that is very fast. I didn't know that at the time. I, um, I'd just like to say now in my modern day, in my modern form that. I'm a lot happier with how I look now. I can actually look at myself in the mirror after a [00:59:30] shower. I can actually like, put on nice outfits and feel good about them instead of wearing the same. Thank you. When I put on this outfit this morning, I actually like danced. I was like, yes, I love this. And I was like, do you know how often I danced when I was a man? Like I, I was so boring back then. Um, but yes, even if like medical [01:00:00] transition was not necessary, which it is, but even if it wasn't, we all deserve to have this level of happiness. I, I hope you all, if not now, then in the future achieve this level of care with yourself and the ability to look in the mirror and dance. Thank you. This is my friend Asami. Hi. I am Amanda's friend. [01:00:30] Um, all righty. So my name's Asami. I use she, her pronouns. I'm gender fluid too. I, so I also use the name Rowan with they them pronouns and sometimes she, her and I sometimes use the name Reese with he, him, or he, they pronouns. Um, anyway, today it Saami Girl Day. Anyway. I'm Trans fm. Um, and long story short, it took me like a whole year to get hormones. Now here's the thing. I was at Vic Uni, so they have a thing where like it's a bit more, you can get hormones a bit quicker with the informed consent model. [01:01:00] However, they were su I had a GP who was suspicious that I might have bipolar and thought that that might prevent me from being able to consent in the first place. So I spent a whole year without any end date inside. First they got me to see counselors. Once I was finished with my counselor and the counselor was satisfied with me, they said like, okay, well we're not sure. We're just gonna get you to see the psychologist at Wellington Hospital. Then I had to wait for a date for them to book me in, which I didn't even know when, when that was gonna happen. [01:01:30] Took me a whole year. I first, well, first point where I decided to, um, get H r t was September something. I forgot the date, but I remember the first day I got h I got prescribed h r T was, uh, Whatever the day before the 1st of September was. I forgot whether August has 31st or not, but yeah, day before that I got prescribed and then like I took my meds for the first time following day, but like a whole freaking year. Like, come on, [01:02:00] like our healthcare, our gps need proper training across this stuff. It's ridiculous. Like I've heard a lot more horror stories about this and it's ridiculous how long it takes. Like, come on New Zealand. Come on. Al Alterra. Yes. Okay. Fuck. Hi, I am Rosie. I go by they, he. Pronouns. This is my very cool partner, [01:02:30] Felix. Um, yay. Um, I just wanted to talk a bit about like my, like, own transition. I came out like probably at 2021 or something. Um, well early 2022 and I still have not received any medical transition care. I have been trying for about a year. I was, I decided to go through my GP instead of university because I didn't know how long I was gonna be [01:03:00] at university for, and I, they said, oh, it's gonna be four, four months on the waiting list. That was three months, which was good on the waiting list to be on the waiting list. I am now, I've now been on the wait actual waiting list for about, for about. About 10 months to a, to a year without where I am persistently told by my GP to just [01:03:30] wait and to just st. Just, and that she knows that it's a hard wait, but maybe I should just go to uni, my university student care instead, instead of going through the pub, instead of going through the public health system where I would have to get diagnosed for, with gender dysphoria to be allowed hormones. So, yeah, and now I'm gonna have to move there, but I just wanted to, to, to the university, [01:04:00] um, student healthcare. But no, I just wanted to say that we, that trans people deserve help, deserve informed health, consent, healthcare. We know what we want and it's not that. It shouldn't be the government's choice. Decide for us. So yeah. How many people have do we have waiting this week? 1, 2, 3, [01:04:30] 4. Um, we are getting, it's getting a little cold. Um, so we want to get through everyone who wants to speak. Um, we're probably gonna have to call the line where it is now. Um, then we'll try to have a little bit of music. Um, but we don't want anyone to get hypothermia, so we're gonna try and, you know, try, try and not take too long. Um, but I also want you to have the experience, you know, the opportunity to share your experiences. Welcome. Uh, hello. Um, sorry. My name is, uh, Declan. I [01:05:00] use he, him pronouns. Uh, and I'm a transgender man from the United States. Thank you. Uh, and, um, I'm, Talk, gonna talk about my experience with healthcare, which is abnormally positive. And I think I wanna share it because my experience should not be the anomaly, it should be the norm. For context, I came out as trans in January of 2021. By April of that same year I was on hormones and had a double mastectomy top surgery. A [01:05:30] and that is not the norm. There was a lot of circumstances that made it work, including being from a state that uses an informed consent model and does not require you to access, uh, a therapist to give you a diagnosis of gender dysphoria to get a surgery or hormones. And you can just, if you're an adult, you can be like, yeah, I want this. And they're like, bet. Cool. Do it. Um, and since being able to medically transition, uh, it's about, so that's about two years since starting hormones and having cop surgery. I [01:06:00] genuinely feel like I'm at a place where I have achieved gender euphoria. I feel very comfortable with myself. You know, I go to the beach without a shirt on. I feel very confident with who I am and how I look, and I feel like I am perceived the way that I want to be perceived. And that should not be an anomaly for trans and queer people. That should be the fucking norm. That should be baseline expected. Like that shouldn't be like a one in however fucking many chance that should be [01:06:30] expected. And I guess the only other thing I wanted to just bring up, I guess, is I said I did that two years ago, and at the time I was like, wow, things are really looking up, like it seems like things are going better for trans people in my country. Um, and in the, even in the two years since then, the amount of just rollback and going in the wrong direction that we've seen, I think. A lot of times because New Zealand is generally better than the US and other places in some regards like that, it's never a good [01:07:00] idea to get complacent. Where we are is never good enough and just because things might seem like they're good enough or maybe like, oh, well this thing is better than it was, so maybe we should be grateful. No, you just have to keep fighting and demanding. Even if things are keep improving and we start getting demands, you really have to keep at it and keep pushing on it because as soon as we get complacent or just protect, like, act like we don't need to push forward or just let other people speak for us, [01:07:30] things can start going in the wrong direction very quickly. And it's important to stay vigilant and to stay advocating for our rights. Hi. I'm glad I took my anxiety reads this morning. Um, I tend to rainbow when I'm nervous. I'll try not to talk too long, but, uh, I'm Cade, I go by they them pronouns and have for the last six years. And I'm here with my comfort support girlfriend, um, who unfortunately has been on the [01:08:00] waiting list for the waiting list or for what we don't know. No one's talking to her for over 10 months. And, um, honestly, I've heard the horror stories. I haven't even bothered to go try through the health system because I know how long it can take and how difficult it can be. And that should not be the case. I come from a very small town, uh, actually in the Hut Valley, and I [01:08:30] grew up admiring this woman because she was so gorgeous and pretty, and she was great at everything. And I had to tell myself that that wasn't allowed. That I wasn't allowed to admire and have a crush on this woman two years older than me because of how people are raised in this fucking society. I, that is, that is the thing people should not have to go through, especially everyone here and everyone who [01:09:00] can't make it here today. And unfortunately that's the case for a lot of people who can't make it out of their homes because they can't support us or themselves because of the situations they are in. And that is just something that has to stop. Uh, Kiara. My name's Anne. I'm a anti-fascist, a tenant organizer, and a non-binary. [01:09:30] Um, I'm also, I'm also a early childcare worker, um, just casually. Yay, ece. Um, And what I think you were saying about family first, kind of trying to attack the, you know, like get the children, um, reminded me of experiences I've had there and like this does have a positive end, so stick with me. Um, the kids at my work, I prefer working with the sort, sort of three and four year olds. They do learn gender at a depressingly young age. Um, they know that it's weird that I have a beard. [01:10:00] Um, you know, it's a lot of like, well you got a beard, are you a boy or a girl? And I'm like, well, it's really hard to explain cause I'm like, yeah, I'm not a woman. But not for the reason that you think. Um, I mean, kids also say a lot of weird stuff. There's a, um, one kid who asked how old I was and when I told him, he said 32, that means you're nearly ready to be dead. That's great. Um, I love him. But, um, yeah, at the, um, at the workplace, I'm, I'm doing a lot of stuff out. I went and asked my manager, like, how do, how do I deal with this [01:10:30] like, weird level of harassment from four year olds? Um, and she gave me a lot of really great advice, like the, the workplace is a positive one. Um, they have a child there who's two whose parents want to use they them pronouns for them. At another place I worked, there was a child who was trans. And that mean, I mean they're like three or four. That means their parents are being supportive. It means the schools are being supportive. There are so many like young people transitioning defecting from the system of colonial gender, like whatever you wanna call it. [01:11:00] Like this is a tidal waves that can't be rolled back and it's wonderful. So, yay. My name's tricky. I use they them pronouns and as is very obvious, I'm fas. When I was first referred to endocrinology, they asked me if I wanted a gastric bypass rather than hormones. They referred me for the gastric bypass and delayed my [01:11:30] getting on hormones for another six months. With the BMI limits that a lot of surgeons have in New Zealand, I may never get the surgeries that I want to live my affirming life, and that fucking sucks. Removing BMI limits from healthcare would make so many things easier, not just within trans healthcare, but within healthcare in general.[01:12:00] Yeah. Hello. Um, my name is Benny. I use any pronouns and I am a Q s A leader at, um, a high school in the suburbs. And I have been in the unfortunate position that I have seen so many people come into the Q S A that I run that, [01:12:30] um, haven't been able to, um, get on hormone blockers. And it's just awful to see because, um, the qsa that I run is mainly a safe space, um, for queer people. And, um, yeah, it's just really awful to see how, um, the terrible situations that, um, trans people are in and yeah. Thank you. [01:13:00] Also, I'm part of the Wellington Queer Students Association. If, um, And so we advocate for queer youth around Wellington and yeah, we're starting to do big things and I'm excited. Ra? Yes. 1, 1, 1 more person. T Um, I'm actually sis so I thought I shouldn't [01:13:30] speak before the trans people, but I also run a qsa, I work at Hut Valley High School and run a QSA there. Um, and I really see the effects with my students of the difference between support from their au the difference between, um, Receiving healthcare. I've got, um, a trained student who is 17 who is on hormones and is getting top surgery these school holidays, so that's so awesome. Um, but I also just really [01:14:00] wanted to do a shout out. I dunno if there's anyone here from them to, uh, Bo Antifascist coalition, they sent me an, they sent me an email as a heads up that, um, resist gender education and evil organization, um, had published details about where our trans support group at school meets and when and publish that widely on their website. So fuck them. Um, but yeah, I just wanna say, um, I know like [01:14:30] it's not just trans people in this fight. There are a lot of cis people who have so much utter half for you guys and what you're going through. And I find it hard hearing the criticism as a cis person. So it must be so hard for you people, um, who are. Who it's about your identity as well. So much rahar to you all. We're all in this fight together. Kiara, thank you all so much for coming. Um, it got cold on us really quickly, so if you're feeling really cold, um, [01:15:00] you know, look after yourselves, that is the most important thing. Um, if you feel you need to run off to get warm, awesome. Um, we're gonna have some music to wrap up, um, but we don't really have more to do. Um, so I'm gonna, um, do you want me to post? Yeah. Um, so I'm good. Gonna do a closing. AK here. Um, same one that Sarah read before. Um, this Kara represents coming together from a diversity of different backgrounds to build something together.[01:15:30] Home. Hi, that is it. You're all amazing. I fucking love you all so much. Hi, I'm Ray. Um, I'm a gender queer, gender freak wellingtonian. Um, and I've just come to a rally for trans [01:16:00] healthcare at Parliament with all of my lovely friends from various places. And can you tell me a bit about what happened at the rally today? Um, lots of people spoke some really beautiful words. There's some music going really hard in the background. It got really cold. Um, people spoke really emo about their experiences of healthcare discrimination. Um, people spoke about beautiful experiences of positive things that have happened in trans healthcare and trans lives and trans communities, and people spoke about [01:16:30] the necessity of organization and community support in furthering and protecting the rights that we have. How did it make you feel to be at this rally today? I feel like who I am and my gender is really built foundationally on my community and the support that I have and the history that comes behind me. So anytime that I'm in a space with other trans people and anytime that I'm thinking about trans history, especially local trans history, I feel so much more grounded and [01:17:00] connected to myself. And that's something that's really important to me actually. Yeah, that's a good point. Would you mind telling me, um, what you're up to this morning? What was I up to this morning? Oh my goodness. Um, I was volunteering at Leg Ends at the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand. I have been putting away some shirts from the New Zealand AIDS Foundation and the Burnett Foundation, and also looking through many of Georgina Bayer's news clippings that she took throughout her life. Um, especially ones from 1994 to 2017. Um, [01:17:30] it was really special. It's so meaningful to look through those things myself, but especially to do it with other people, which is why I love doing it at the workshops where I get to talk to people about the beautiful materials we're holding and seeing. So, um, given that today was held on the anniversary of Stonewall and given your, um, passion for history, um, what does it mean to you to be, to be, um, honoring Stonewall with the healthcare demands? 18 healthcare demands. Stonewall is a really precious and important, um, [01:18:00] moment in the world's queer history. It is quite meaningful to be here on this day. Um, it's especially meaningful to me to have come here after just being at New Zealand's Trans and Queer Archives to see all these beautiful posters that you have made of New Zealand's trans and queer figures in our history. Um, I feel that's really important when we do work like this to keep in mind those who have come before us so that we can remember that we're not isolated and we are part of this massive web [01:18:30] across time and across space of trans and queer community who have been fighting for the same things for the longest. Ke my name is tricky. Um, I am at a. Um, gender healthcare rally and everyone appears to be having fun. We're, um, talking about our experiences with our, with healthcare within the New Zealand system, which is a rollercoaster. And so can you [01:19:00] describe, uh, the scene for me, what's going on around currently? A lot of people are chatting. I'm assuming people are either talking to friends or making new friends. People are dancing to the music that's going on, and we're also packing up a little bit right now. Um, so you got up and, and spoke and had a really wonderful speech. Can you tell me more about, uh, why it was important for you to share your experiences to the crowd today? I think it was important to me to share my experiences because there weren't many people talking about the perspective of being a fat trans person in New Zealand and [01:19:30] also just, um, kind of a. Middle to older person. There are a lot of young people who are having a lot of experiences right now and it sucks for them and it sucks for us too. I, I really resonated with what you said about the VMI stuff cuz that shit's so fucked. Um, so I was really happy that you got up and, and spoke about it. Um, can you, um, what do you think about the 18 demands that Q E D [01:20:00] have laid out? Honestly, I don't have a very good memory, so I don't remember a lot of them. But, uh, when they were being spoken, I did cheer for most of them because it makes sense that, uh, making trans healthcare more accessible and just an easier process for us to go through is a good idea. Um, currently, uh, we aren't a priority and making ourselves a priority is the way it has to go. And also [01:20:30] making sure that, um, The rights of healthcare workers are respected. It's just all around good things. I think, um, given that it's an, it's an election year, um, what would you like to say to any politicians listening to this audio recording? Realize that your trans constituents are people. Prioritize healthcare for them. Make sure that you are not caving to the demands of people who hate us. So I [01:21:00] am Anna. Um, I used to give context, I'm from Latin American, from Mexico, and with Be we made the group Latin queers, which is basically Latin American people coming together because there's not many places where there's the intersection of both being Latin and being queer is very rare. So what brought us to this, basically trans rights, of course, um, healthcare for everyone. In my case, I am disabled. I am also in the trans umbrella. And. These two things, even though people see it as separately are very, [01:21:30] there's no liberation if everyone is not liberated, basically. So while I am Belen Pedro from Argentina. Argentina, and yes. So basically we have this need to, uh, gather as a community since, for us it's really hard to find spaces where we feel completely comfortable because we think that the queer in here is, uh, quite close. So there is no much space for Latin America. [01:22:00] Uh, and also we come from very difficult spaces, countries, and also we have a huge history of activism. Uh, if you research a little bit about the trans feminism in, uh, Latin, in Latin America, it's a huge, huge movement. So basically we want to give. Our experience, uh, as a political movement being Latin American and queer. So for everyone is invited also, um, to [01:22:30] come to our space. You can find us. On social media as Latin queers, which is l a t i n, queers spell as the Spanish, uh, which is c u i r S. So everyone is welcome. We will be doing quite a few things and everyone is welcome again. Thank you. That's fantastic. Can you, um, if, if I can keep you for a little bit longer? Yeah. Can you tell me more about, um, when you founded this group and, and how the kind of conversations behind getting this group started? If, if, if you're okay with. Talking about that. Yeah, of course. [01:23:00] Yeah. Um, so basically, well, Anna and I have been friends, uh, for, uh, for quite, quite a few years now. Well, of course I'm queer. I'm, uh, I'm a lesbian. And we had, again, this need to find us and we started meeting queer people, Latin American queer people, but we could never gather in one same space. So that's why we wanted to start something new. And because I'm a big fan of films and I specialize specifically in [01:23:30] Latin American films and queer films, so, um, I wanted to start doing this, uh, film screening showing showcasing Latin American queer films. So, and we are doing that, uh, that once a month and suddenly we discover that we all have this huge, huge need together and to create these huge nets of care and support because we are feel very lonely. Um, so basically that's how it started. It doesn't have, um, a very long [01:24:00] time. We only started quite a few months ago, but it keeps growing and everyone who comes, it's, uh, immediately feels welcome and happy because it's, again, it's really hard for us. Yeah. Yeah. We would also like to share our knowledge as activists in Latin America, which is a completely different context, but there's definitely some theory that we could use in Altera. We would really like to see a bit more of a political movement in the queer community as. It stands right now. It seems very white. It seems very, [01:24:30] um, straight size, able bodied. Um, when, where we come from. Activism is really important. Everything is politics. So being here and not seeing that was also another catalyst for us to get together to be like, oh, we need, it's not only that I'm gay and I'm beautiful, oh, everyone can tell I'm beautiful, but let's make it political. Let's make a statement out of it. Yes, I am. And also, so we are here celebrating and also fighting for, uh, what this, this movement started right in the [01:25:00] states that, uh, 28th of June. And we also have to remember that one of the, uh, pro Taiwanese of the leaders for the movement was, um, Latin American immigrant is Sylvia Rivera. So we also want to bring all, all of all, all of our experience and knowledge from that. And also we can't forget that queer. Movement, queer community. It's a political movement, and we really want [01:25:30] to highlight that we are a political movement and we have the strength to to, to change reality as we know it. So I think that's the, the most important thing. Um, are there any particular Latin American activists or groups that you look up to and so many, so many, well, especially, um, all, all the, all the big ones. I mean, Lona, Berkins, um, she was a, a Travis Stite, as we call [01:26:00] in Latin America, uh, activist, uh, Vienna Shan, he was part, he create the homosexual organization in Argentina, and he was the one. Who, who did the, who organized the first, uh, pride, um, protest in, in Argentina. Also, uh, one other interesting thing that in Argentina, for example, we celebrate the Pride parade in November, not in June. And that was because [01:26:30] when everything started, this was like late eighties, the beginning of the 19th in Argentina, the same as happened here. It's cold weather, very cold weather. And because there were a lot of people who had AIDS and they were H HIV V positive, it was really hard for them to go out in the cold weather like us now. Um, so that's why they decided to move the protest to November. Um, so there are like those specific things that we, we would love to [01:27:00] bring and share with people here in Otte Ottawa. Well, I, I don't wanna keep you on the call too much longer, but, um, when I, uh, came over to ask you to interview, I rudely interrupted a dance circle, and so I just wanted to ask you, you know, um, what it feels like to be at a rally here commemorating Stonewall, bringing the Latin Queers group to Parliament lawns. How, what, what are the feelings like for you both? Um, it's, it's really cool for once the fact that we got to play reggaeton in the parliament. Pretty cool. Yes. Um, [01:27:30] very proud. Yeah, very proud of that. But also, um, it's just a lot of joy because we have, there's an activist that I love, NA Guerrero from Mexico, and she says, one foot at the party and another in the protest in which something that we really carry in Latin American, which party, both party and protesting is not a, is not in fight at each other. Like we can do both. Uh, the system constantly wants to take away our pleasure, our happiness, our existence out of here. So us by dancing, by being loud, by being [01:28:00] here, that's us being like, you know what? Taking space. Exactly. Taking space, taking the public space. It should be ours. We're being like, you know what? I know you all in Parliament. Ignore us as migrants, as gay people, as disabled people. Well, we're still here and we're not gonna go anywhere. And we're having fun. We're having fun. Exactly. Yeah. I'm not gonna be at home crying. Exactly. So we can't, we can't, uh, we, we can't let the, the whole system to take away from us the joy and the pleasure. Mm-hmm. And, and all of those kind of things. That's [01:28:30] also, those ones are also human rights. And we have to celebrate and we have to be aware of that. Yeah.

IRN: 3611
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/tangi_utikere_maiden_statement_in_parliament.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004716
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093106
TITLE: Tangi Utikere maiden statement in Parliament
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Tangi Utikere; Trevor Mallard
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Cook Islands; Jacinda Ardern; Member of Parliament; New Zealand Labour Party; Palmerston North; Parliament buildings; Steve Maharey; Tangi Utikere; Trevor Mallard
DATE: 2 December 2020
YEAR: 2020
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: The maiden statement of Tangi Utikere in Parliament, 2 December 2020.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Mr. Speaker I call for his maiden statement. Mr. Speaker, firstly, I wish to acknowledge and congratulate you on your election to the office you now hold. I look forward to the guidance and support that you will provide to [00:00:30] me as a new member of this esteemed house. I also wish to acknowledge ran my local iwi in my electorate, and specifically who are in the gallery this evening. Mr. Speaker, I am humbled to rise as the new member for Palmerston North. Yeah, a [00:01:00] city that I am very proud to call my home. I want to thank the constituents of Palmie for putting their trust in me to represent them for at least the next three years. It's fair to say that at the start of this year, it was not my expectation that I would be a member of Parliament. My campaign run was much shorter than others, and I must apologize to my parliamentary colleagues in that. I, I joined the campaign much later in the piece, but I wish to acknowledge their hard work and I congratulate [00:01:30] them on their election as members of this house. My arrival here is due in no small part to a fantastically well-organized party campaign under the leadership of our later LE Labor leader and Prime Minister, the Wright Honorable Jacinda Ern, and at a local level due to the sterling efforts of my Palmers North base team, many of whom are in the gallery tonight. Candidates are often never easy to manage, but particularly when you inherited a new one less than eight [00:02:00] weeks before the scheduled general election. So to my campaign manager, Lorna Johnson, and the wider team, my gratitude and thanks to you all for making it a flawless transition and for the electoral success that the team delivered. It is particularly special that tonight I get to deliver my maiden statement alongside other new members of Labor's Pacifica Caucus. So to Barb Niru and Teresa, and of course, my entry to Parliament has doubled Labor's Cook [00:02:30] Island and Caucus. So to my Cookie Irani colleague, the Honorable Porter Williams, Ana. And I also wish to acknowledge my Palmers North colleague Tiano on his successful election as the Green Party's first Pacifica member. Mr. Speaker Convention seems to dictate that I acknowledge the work of my predecessors, and I certainly wish to do that. Over the last 40 years, there have been four mps for Palmerston North, the Honorable Joe [00:03:00] Walden, the Honorable Trevor cle, the Honorable Steve Mahari, and the Honorable Ian Lees Galloway, all from the New Zealand Labor Party. Prior to the entry to Parliament, they all had a history of service to the electorate and a prerequisite that seems to have stood them in good stead for their connection to the local community, and certainly a characteristic that I wish to continue. I want to acknowledge their collective service to the constituents of the city over that time, in particular, Mr. Speaker, I wish to acknowledge one predecessor who is present [00:03:30] here today, and that's the honorable Steve Mahari. Steve's 1999 campaign was my first. So he is partially responsible for my involvement in politics. I am deeply honored that his footsteps, but with my footprints are ones that I wish to follow, even if it is some time since he left this house, Mr. Speaker, like many others, my life has been shaped by my upbringing and my experiences, which are undoubtedly informed by the generations that come before us [00:04:00] in 1962. My 20 year old Cook Allen Grandmother VI Hewitt. Left her village of Neko Parra in Iki, and at that time she also left her 19 months old, old son, my father, with her parents. And on the 14th of May, 1962, she took this ticket to the Port of Tonga. There she bought the SS Monterey to set sail for New Zealand in search of a better future for those to follow. In addition to this ticket, she also [00:04:30] took with her the hopes, dreams, and aspirations of her family. She arrived in this country, worked hard by cooking and cleaning at the hospital, and every week she would put some money aside to send back to her family in the islands. That was her routine. That was her cultural sacrifice. Some years later, when my father was eight, he traveled to New Zealand with his grandfather to join his parents. My father arrived and attended primary school in New Zealand where he spoke little to no English. Every time he opened his mouth to speak, [00:05:00] he was punished. This meant his first interaction with the New Zealand education system was. Was deeply alienating something that he is not keen to develop or explore further. Instead, he was keen to get outta school as soon as he could, and he did. He left school with no formal qualifications, but with a lot of experience. Mr. Speaker, I'm the eldest of four children, so as the firstborn Cook Island custom dictator that my grandparents gifted me my name. My mother actually wanted to call me [00:05:30] Joshua, uh, but instead my paternal grandparents named me Tangi throughout school. I hated my name as, I'd also have to always have to explain why someone would want to name their child grief or funeral, rather than the Cook Island Maori translation of Wait for it. Beautiful. Now I have come a long way since then and now consider it's an honor to carry the name that has been gifted to me. [00:06:00] My parents, Sue and a Cardi from a very early age taught my siblings and I the significance of working hard. To never judge a book by its cover and to value the importance of family. My mother demonstrates a passion for a sense of community and of supporting those who are more vulnerable than others. Particular traits that she inherited from my late grandfather, Ted Thorner. My father demonstrates the trait of integrity. He taught me by his own actions that integrity is something you feel and experience rather than something you specifically [00:06:30] define and see that you do what you say will do, and that you'll treat others as you wish to be treated. These are particular traits that I hope to exemplify as I go about my duties as a member of this house. My parents also knew that education was too important to ignore, so they encouraged their children to be more engaged with education and to do well, something that my siblings and I will forever be very grateful. To them four. So thank you mum and dad, Mr. Speaker. My introduction to the Labor [00:07:00] Party is similar to that of many others. 25 years ago, my uncle Tahi Williams Hewitt took me along to what was my first Labor Party event at the Terrace School Hall as part of Steve's former MP Jill White's campaign. I remember the inevitable Labor Party raffle at the door. I remember my first L e C meeting. And I remember how inclusive the party was to this teenage boy, and that was the start of my involvement with the party. The principles and values that attracted [00:07:30] me to join our party more than 20 years ago are the same important ones that underpin the labor party today. Those of equal access and opportunity, fairness, social justice, inclusiveness, and kindness. Mr. Speaker, I started my professional career in education as a secondary school teacher of history and social science at Freiberg High School. My relationship with Freiberg has come full circle. I started there as a student, then as a teacher, and finally as a [00:08:00] trustee on the school board. In one particular year, my siblings Rachel, Luke, and I occupied the roles of parent student and staff trustee respectively. So my family is aware of the value of local communities being involved in the governance of local schools. Freiberg taught me much and it's special to have many of my freiberg connections in the gallery tonight. My early years were also where I established lifelong friendships. My longest friendship stems from Form one at Ross Intermediate. So to [00:08:30] Stacy and your partner, Kyle, thank you for being here tonight and to Shari, Caleb, Tanya, and your partners. My thanks for the ongoing support and encouragement you have shown to me over the years, Mr. Speaker, these are the values, observations, experiences, and the people that have guided me on my journey to New Zealand's House of Representatives. Mr. Speaker Justices of the Peace provide an incredible level of service in my electorate. The local association has had a focus on attracting younger [00:09:00] candidates and those who are representative of a more modern demographic. While successful, there is still much more work to be done, and of course, members play an important role in the JP process and can assist by continuing to nominate candidates who are reflective of their local communities through my role as a judicial justice of the peace. I have presided over bail and remand hearings for more than 10 years, and as a visiting justice over internal prison disciplinary hearings for nearly five. My judicial experience has [00:09:30] also expanded to include New Zealand's racing industry, an industry worth at least 1. 6 billion annually to New Zealand's economy, where for more than 10 years, I've sat on race day and non race day hearing panels for the judicial control authority. The J C A is an incredibly slick and professional operation on a relatively shoestring budget. And has given me the opportunity to work alongside hardworking colleagues on race courses such as Wairoa Water Lee, and Waverley and Winton, Mr. Speaker. It's through [00:10:00] some of these roles and experiences that I've seen, just how inflexible the criminal justice system can be, particularly for our Maori Pacifica and new migrant communities. An ability to access the system is important. But so too is the ability to be an active participant in proceedings, to be aware of what is happening and to understand the process and the options available to those involved. Prior to my election to Parliament, I was looking forward to taking up a commissioner role with the newly established TE Kahu, the Criminal [00:10:30] Cases Review Commission. The loss of one's freedom and liberty is one of, is one of, if not the most severe consequence that the state can impose. So there must be a sense of independence, integrity, and fairness in the system. But those judicial tenants of independence, integrity, and fairness must not purely exist. They must also be evident and active in the very police court and wider criminal justice processes that New Zealand has in place. The commission, while still in its infancy, is a potential safeguard within the [00:11:00] jurisdiction, and I look forward to seeing it over, uh, over the next few years. Mr. Speaker, my experience over the last 10 years as a city councilor and then a deputy mayor has been about public service and connections within my community, and I acknowledge council colleagues here today. While my tenure in that role has now concluded, I remain an advocate for the local council's mantra of Palmers North being a place with small city benefits and big city ambition. Mr. Speaker, the ability to overturn a local [00:11:30] council's decision to introduce Maori wards is an unfortunate provision in local government legislation, and I look forward to the government looking at options for its removal. The local government sector faces many challenges amongst them is the ability of councils to meet the infrastructure needs of their community within a very tight fiscal envelope. I believe it is the role of the state to actively work in partnership with local government and other providers who have the best interests of the community at heart. But I also believe that enterprise has an ethical and social [00:12:00] conscience to think about where it can actively play a part in meeting the infrastructure needs of its local community. However, these partnerships cannot be at any cost or at the expense of local community wellbeing. Mr. Speaker, we have all lived and we are still living through the most extraordinary period of our collective lives. Covid has tested every agency. In spite of this, Palmerston North's strengths continue to rely on education and training, logistics and distribution, along with our historical defense connections. [00:12:30] Its reputation for innovation, science, and technology marks it as a leader in research and development. It is a city that has a diversified private sector. Supported by a strong agribusiness and primary food, food producing region along with a solid public sector. It is a city that is rich in cultural diversity, a welcoming community with more than 130 different ethnicities who choose to call Palmy home. It simply is a wonderful place to [00:13:00] represent, and I look forward to advocating for my constituents and for my electorate as a member of the Labor caucus. And in government. I'm excited by the desire for this government to be one for all New Zealanders, and I am committed to working across the Parliament to achieve that. Mr. Speaker, before I conclude, I want to acknowledge the person who is on this journey with me, my partner today. Today. Thank you for your love, for your support, and your unfiltered feedback [00:13:30] and encouragement as we embark upon these next steps. Together, Mr. Speaker. In conclusion, I look forward to the challenges and I look forward to the journey, but more importantly, I look forward to working as part of a team to ensure that this parliament is one that realizes the opportunities, the dreams, and the aspirations that Tano like my grandmother had. For those that wish to call Alero New Zealand. Their home Norra 10 10.[00:14:00] [00:14:30] .

IRN: 3612
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/glen_bennett_maiden_statement_in_parliament.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004717
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093107
TITLE: Glen Bennett maiden statement in Parliament
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Glen Bennett; Trevor Mallard
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Glen Bennett; Member of Parliament; New Plymouth; New Zealand Labour Party; Parliament buildings; Trevor Mallard
DATE: 9 February 2021
YEAR: 2021
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: The maiden statement of Glen Bennett in Parliament, 9 February 2021.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I call on Glen Bennett to make his maiden statement, Mr. Speaker.[00:00:30] [00:01:00] [00:01:30] Mr. Speaker, it's been my, my life's work has been all about serving people and serving our community. However, I am an unlikely politician. I've always stood for people's [00:02:00] rights. I've been a voice for those who have had no voice, but power titles, they mean very little to me, and sometimes I've seen them in such a bad way that power and title oppresses instead of liberating. So I always said, no. No, no to the idea of running for parliament, but that no was eventually massaged [00:02:30] by many people in this room, including the prime minister's, own auntie and local identity Maria. So here I am. My approach to life is best summed up. By the Aboriginal artist and activist Lila Watson, who said, if you've come here to help me, you are wasting your time.[00:03:00] But if you've come here because your liberation is bound with mine, then let us work together. I've followed this mantra in my life and in my work, not by fixing everything for everybody and doing everything. But walking alongside them, working together for our liberation. Now, I say this, I wasn't into politics, [00:03:30] and here I am, but let's be honest, 1984 was quite a big year for me. I was nine years old, and David Longy was this larger than life character. His passion, his oratory, his humor, it captured this nine year old schoolboy from Dominion Road School in Mount Rococo. 1984 was also the year that I wrote in my school journal. Don't look too closely at the crosses, and it said this, when I [00:04:00] grow up, I wanna be like my dad. My dad's a Salvation Army officer. My dad helps people when I grow up, I want to help people. My parents. Salvation Army work was rather hectic. Take a side, the timbers and the tubers, the Red shield appeals knocking on doors and moving every few years as mum and dad gave themselves [00:04:30] to the work. There was also the unique experiences that my parents gave me. The drunk who spent a few nights sleeping in our garage, sobering up the family from overseas who had experienced trauma and were staying with us. The skinhead having Sunday lunch with us for his birthday, as well as the countless prison girls that came and went from our home. 1984 was also the year that I have a vivid memory that's [00:05:00] changed me. The person that I am today, my mum was the chaplain of Mount Eden Woman's Prison. Times were different back then, Kelvin, and uh, we used to get easy access down the corridors of the prison into the south, into the common areas. And it was quite regular after school for mum to swing by a home, pick us up and take us to the prison to visit some of these girls or to visit some of those who'd recently been released. But this one afternoon mum swung by [00:05:30] a home and I was just there by myself and off we went to visit one of the girls who just got outta prison and her baby. Now this was nothing different or unusual. And then we arrived at the old NIE hanger rubbish dump. I was confused. We were visiting a mom and her daughter. We drove through the dump to a working shed out the back. We hopped outta the car and I can still smell the smell of that [00:06:00] dump and the confusion thinking, why are we, what are we doing here in this dump? We knocked on the door and this mother and her child answered it. We went inside, we sat on the edge of the beds, in the sheds, in the back of a dump, and it was immaculate what little she had. She took great care of, mum had the conversation, we left and went home. Now, I don't remember the [00:06:30] conversation that mom and I had in the car that day, but I do remember thinking that something is wrong. That a woman and her baby. In New Zealand are living in a shed at the back of the dump. That experience changed me and has never left me. I now also think it will shape my work here in Parliament. Mr. Speaker, my [00:07:00] life's call to serve people has led me to being a foster parent over the past 20 years, and I wanna acknowledge some of those. Tara. Uh, Tam here. Uh, those who aren't here to nui, to Nigel, to Dennis, to George, to Kevin, and Blade to you, and to your whanau. I love you. I've committed my life to you, [00:07:30] which means that it's a sacred honor for me to be here serving you in this place. And for me now at this beautiful young age of 45 to be Cord Glen, but I stand here because of you. Every day that I walk into this house, I think of you and of the chances that you never had of the trauma that is your unwelcome [00:08:00] friend of a system that wasn't responsive to your needs or your culture. I think also of the children today who are going through similar things. I stood for Parliament to make a difference on a larger scale than just my community work. I wanna see a transform society where my UNA will have more opportunities, face less prejudice, and be part of a country that loves and looks after our most [00:08:30] vulnerable. This place is a place of power where decisions are made to change people's lives. And I'm a living example of that here in Parliament today cuz this place, as I said, has a power to oppress, but it also has the power to liberate. And today I feel liberated standing here wearing this Wai, due to the courage of this house that yesterday I was able to marry the man [00:09:00] that I love and cloak myself and his fucker Papa. Represented in this man. My nine year old self, a 9 0 4 would've been pretty happy, but pretty confused about this whole experience. I still am actually, to be honest, but I feel liberated in this place. This place of power has liberated me. So thank you to all those who work for liberation. I know what it's like to be on the [00:09:30] margins, to be mocked. And sadly, I know that there are still some in this country who struggle with their bigotry and old thinking. John and I have been called faggots over the fence of our own home. Wanted on the campaign trail, I was challenged for my perversions. One person wanted to make sure that everyone knew that I was gay because then no one would vote for me. That didn't work. This man [00:10:00] denied my Christianity and tried to wield the Bible against me that day. Minister Andrew Little stepped in and he said to this man, this is not about your religion. This is about your prejudice. Our society's come a long way, but we have a long way to go. Thank you, Andrew. Louis the wall. Thank you for your fight for us that we can be married here [00:10:30] and those who go before you. Before us today. Mr. Speaker, I'm proud to stand here as the member of Parliament for New Plymouth. And I also wanna acknowledge that it was 34 years ago. That the last MP for New Plymouth gave a maiden speech in this house. Harry Dihn, thank you for being here.[00:11:00] I'm humbled that the constituents of New Plymouth have placed their trust in me to champion their causes, their needs, especially the needs of our most vulnerable. There's a few thank yous, which is a risk I know, but nonetheless, yeah, luckily this isn't being recorded. Our campaign team, grant Hassel, Bali Huck, [00:11:30] Lorraine Weber, Colleen Hammonds, ESMA Eastman, Gordon Goer, Anthony Rhodes, Colin Bell, thank you so much to Bruce Getwood Cook, Virginia Winder. Shelley Baldwin, Mike Baldwin. Brendan Lister. This is where I go rogue and name a few people. I probably gonna muck it up now. But anyway. Leslie, Ollie, Maria, dun, Troy, Ryan, Eileen Coffin Gold Star volunteers. But you all are gold star volunteers cuz [00:12:00] here we are. And here I am standing in front of you to the new Plymouth, L e c, to members and supporters. We got there. To Andrew Little again, thank you for putting your trust in me. And for you, prime Minister, thank you so much for allowing me, having faith in me and probably getting some text from your Auntie Soff and to tell her what things I've been doing wrong. I also wanna thank Tama [00:12:30] Wni or Taranaki who have been on my journey with me to community Taranaki, who have helped me, empowered me to be here. As your representative and as representative of our people to Edo my faith community, who always keep me grounded. Thank you. And to my family. To mum and dad, to Drew and Delwin, Jackson, Montana. Leo, [00:13:00] Charlie, to Mark, and Nikki, to Ezra, to Micah, to Judah. I think I've got them all. Lucky. We're a Pakia family and to John, my rock, my world, I wouldn't have run if it wasn't for you walking alongside me. Thank you. I love you. [00:13:30] Husband. Most of all, I wanna thank the people of new plys, of Wata, of Kuda, of aki, and everywhere in between for putting your trust in me. Our electorate is blessed with natural beauty resources and talented, hardworking, down to earth people. To my constituents. As your member of Parliament, I will work for. You all, I'll [00:14:00] be an MP for you even if you voted for me or did not vote for me. And I am brimming with ideas and how we can bring the possibilities of our community together. My door is always open. My vision for New Plymouth is a city that leads New Zealand's green energy future that we ensure that it is a just transition. I'll continue to ensure that everyone has a place to call home. That we have a world class medical care system for our [00:14:30] people in our region, and that our communities rediscover and reimagine the connectedness between neighbors and communities. I wanna serve our region and our country where it's not about just talking about issues and problems, but it's talking about possibilities and the assets of the people within our communities. I spoke earlier about a, a woman and child living by the dump, [00:15:00] and today we have a housing crisis in New Zealand and I strongly believe in this government's vision that everyone has a warm, dry place to go home. A vision of houses that shelter them from the wind and the rain. And one where the young people of Taranaki can afford a house to raise their whanau. Mr. Speaker, I stand here proudly as a Labor Party MP and see that the wonderful challenges and excitement we [00:15:30] have, the fact that we are gonna be teaching our own history in schools, that we have our own public holiday that represents this nation, and that tonight in this house legislation begins, uh, to deal with. The Maori ward and allowing councils and allowing councils to have, uh, a better representation. And [00:16:00] many of you in this room have fought for that. So thank you. I close and speak to this Wai and to this kuda that I wear and I especially wanna thank Maori woman in my life. Who have guided me, they gifted me this, that kuda the three feathers of putty haka. And so it is with this Tonga front and present with me today that will guide me as I serve this house that kuda connects [00:16:30] me to our creator and grounds me to love and service of the people of Aldo, honoring glory to God, to our creator, peace on earth, goodwill to all people.[00:17:00] [00:17:30] [00:18:00] .

IRN: 3609
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/whanau_aniwaniwa_hui.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004719
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093109
TITLE: Whānau Ā niwaniwa Hui
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Jaimie Waititi; Kevin Haunui; Louie Zalk-Neale; Matt Tini; Neke Moa; Paula Conroy; Rangimoana Taylor; Shawn Wimalaratne
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Adhikaar Aotearoa; Atua; Bible; Black Lives Matter (BLM); Brian Tamaki; COVID-19 lockdown; Christianity; Conversion Practices Prohibition Legislation Bill (2021); Destiny Church; Doctrine of Discovery; Hannah Playhouse; Hauora; He Takatāpui Noa Ahau (waiata); Hina; Hui Takatāpui; Human Rights Commission; Jaimie Waititi; Kevin Haunui; Kāi Tahu; Leviticus; Louie Zalk-Neale; Louisa Wall; Make Visible Te Whanganui-a-Tara project; Matt Tini; Neke Moa; Ngaati Tiipa; Ngāi Tahu; Ngāi Te Rangi; Ngāpuhi; Ngāti Kahungunu; Ngāti Porou; Ngāti Rakaipaaka; Ngāti Rangi; Ngāti Tūwharetoa; Paula Conroy; PwC New Zealand; Rangimoana Taylor; Rarohenga; Ringatoi; Ringatū Church; Shannon Novak; Shawn Wimalaratne; Sri Lanka; Taranaki; Te Ao Māori; Te Rarawa; The Blossoming (art work); Tīwhanawhana; Tūhoe; Waikato; Wellington City Council; Whānau a Apanui; activism; advocacy; architecture; artist; arts; coming out; conversion / reparative therapy; conversion practices; decolonisation; gender fluid; genderless; jewellery; lotus flower; muka; performance; rainbows; sin; sinner; storytelling; transgender; tupuna; tī kōuka; whakapapa; Ā ti Hau; Ōtaki
DATE: 14 June 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Hannah Playhouse, 12 Cambridge Terrace, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the Whānau Ā niwaniwa Hui held on Wednesday 14 June 2023 at Hannah Playhouse, Wellington. The event was an opportunity for the takatāpui and QTBIPOC creative community of Te Whanganui-a-Tara to come together and share stories. Special thanks to the organisers and participants for allowing the hui to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: [00:00:30] [00:01:00] [00:01:30] So just to say very briefly, First of all, for our ancestors, but tonight, on this evening, to welcome all peoples, for gay men, for gay women, for non binary people, we are all part of Papatūānuku. And so to each and every one of [00:02:00] you, tēnā poutou, tēnā poutou, tēnā tātou katoa, kia tātou. I runga i te, ka koe, e te tūakana. Um, [00:02:30] and we're going to sing a . One that I have yet to figure out what that's going to be, but just join in and, uh, we'll go from there, eh? So, um, other than that, I think that's probably the mai ngā iwi, tātou[00:03:00] tātou e. Tētia mai ngā iwi, tātou tātou e. Waiā te mai.[00:03:30] [00:04:00] I know my.[00:04:30] [00:05:00] Ngāti Porou, Ngāhui, Te Rarawa, me o rātou mokopuna ah. Ki tēnā, kā tuku mihi ahau ki ngā mana[00:05:30] Uh, so, um, yeah. My name is Jamie . I am the convener. Um, apologies for my scrambled ness. I was called last night, so I'm trying. Um, but do feel free to [00:06:00] criticize. I can take it. Um, But yeah, thanks everyone for coming, and, uh, this, this Hui itself is about, uh, connecting as, I would say, as a hapuri, uh, you know, whānau a niwaniwa Hui, so essentially together we're creating A new hapū, not a Māori hapū, but a [00:06:30] Takatāpui hapū in, um, Pōneke, and this is the beginning of many kaupapa, and the first thing we need to acknowledge is, of course, uh, those who have come before us. Um, Which is why we got these two massive rangatira, these huge pou, um, because I'm not going to be any good about talking about the past. Um, just while we're here though, I just want to acknowledge, um, those who have come before me, in [00:07:00] particular, and that's, uh, Tuawhale Tanuai from Tamaki Makaurau, um, she's a huge, huge influence on my journey. Also, Tanu, Tanu Ngango from Tamaki Makaurau. And, um, Some of my whānau members that they already know. Um, but yeah, so I want to pass it on to Rangimoana Taylor. Nō Ngāti Porou. [00:07:30] Te koroua nō Ngāti Porou. Um, pai. Okay. Kia ora tātou anō. So, there are a couple of things I want to just talk about. Um, one of the things is I have been often dealing with people who are anti everything. And one of the things is they talk about that there has to be male and female and they always quote me Genesis, [00:08:00] which says, God said go forth and multiply. Well at that time there were two people on the earth, according to them, Adam and Eve. With now 8. 5 billion, do you not think the multiplication could stop? I don't know. The other thing as a youngster and um.. When you have, um, sort of been straight, and then you suddenly realize this is not where you want to be. But when you're young, you sort of get a [00:08:30] bit frightened, and this was in the, um, early 60s. So you go to someone, and you ask them. You tell them about what you are, and you think, I know they're going to, you know, they're going to help me, and this and that. No. Not at all. You filthy, dirty little boy, was what I got. And then they said to me, You have to say this, Satan, get you behind me. And I said, Oh, surely to the [00:09:00] side of me, but I just want to go for a little bit longer if that's okay, because I want to just talk to something. There has been a lot of, um, I remember people who are anti us. It doesn't matter what you are, they're anti us. So I found this, and it is true in Leviticus, it does talk about gay people. [00:09:30] But, there was a person on the radio in the States who was very, and quoted the Bible at it. But, this was the reply. Thank you for trying to educate people regarding God's law. I've learned a lot of, from your show, but can I just ask you something? What's that? Well, I, when I burn a bull on the altar, I know it creates a very [00:10:00] pleasing, um, smell to the Lord. Unfortunately, my neighbors hate it, and should I kill myself over this? I would like, and it says that we can use slavery. So, I would like to sell my daughter into slavery as sanctioned by Exodus this day and age. What do you think would be a fair price for her? The other things, I know I'm not allowed to contract, contact women while she is in your period of the menstrual [00:10:30] cycle. The problem is, how do I tell? I've tried asking, but most women will take offense. Leviticus, that I may indeed possess slaves, it says so, male and female. Provided you have purchased them from a neighboring country. So here in Aotearoa, we cannot take anyone from this country, but you can enslave anyone from Australia. Because that's what it says. [00:11:00] I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Clearly it states that I should put him to death. Am I obliged to do this? A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Is it a less abomination than homosexuality? I can't agree. Can you settle this for me? Most of my male friends have actually had their beards trimmed. [00:11:30] It says this is prohibited in Leviticus. So, how should we kill them? My uncle has a farm. He violates the law by planting two different crops in two, in the same field. This is an abomination according to you. What do we do with people who do this in the law? And the other thing it says, if a woman wears two types of, [00:12:00] um, materials, she should be put to death. This is from the Bible. This is actually, it says that. So, having done the study of these, it really annoys people when they quote to me about homosexuality. And I say, so, do you agree in slavery? Do you agree that women should be burnt? Another one was that women do, um, this, um, that they should be, if they wear these things, [00:12:30] they should be stoned. The city should come out. And the person said, I live in New York. It's quite a lot to try and get 310 million people to come and do the stoning. Could we just make this a family affair? No reira, tēnā koutou. Tēnā koutou, tēnā tātou katoa. Kia ora mai rā. Kia ora. Uh, I think we all know, um, well for me, Jamie gender fluid convener. Um, [00:13:00] I find this interesting, eh? Oh, I don't find that interesting. I know that's like huge conversations all over Te Ao, you know, preach the Bible, but the Bible says many things. We are all sinners. Um, in Te Ao Maori, it is said, and it always comes down to what you believe in, in your own hapu and whānau, it is said that this world is the world of sinners. This is a sinful world, it is a hateful world. And this is not to say that [00:13:30] you are angels or you are going to hell. This is the way this world is because the other world, besides this world, is Rarohinga. And in Māoridom, Rarohinga is where angels go, this is where.. Tā moko comes from, this is where ruru come from, this is where raranga comes from, and this is where people don't hit and people don't raise their voices. So this world, in contrast to that, is very much like hau, right? [00:14:00] So, um, in terms of the Christian Bible.. You've got those things that depict sinful behavior and in terms of Māori whakaaro, this world itself where the earth opens up and volcanic lava swallows people is a sinful place. Um, because the terminology is not translatable. Um, there was heaps and, and.. [00:14:30] There was a lot to absorb in that, I think, that chewed up some of my, um, chewing gum. Um, but the Fakaro hasn't changed much around the world. There are still people who, who don't believe we have the right to exist. Um, it's not as, well, actually, I think it's different. I'm not going to say it's easier or worse. I think it's different. [00:15:00] Now we have access to the wider world. You know, now we can see people who do get stoned for being trans or Takatāwhi or.. Gay or lesbian gender fluid in, in the rest of the world. So, um, so yeah, thank you for sharing that, that whakaro. I always have an interesting, uh, dilemma with Christianity because my whanau is [00:15:30] Ringatu, which is, which is a strand of, um, Christianity. And I was the one who grew up being like.. Who the hell is Rawiri? Who the hell is this person? And why are we praying to them? What happened to Tangaroa? And they'd be like, just read the bloody book. And I'd be like, what's going on? I don't know these people. Is this my uncle or what? And they're like, no. And I'm like, what the hell? So we got this, um, this constant push and pull, but for our whānau.. [00:16:00] Ringatu, Te Haahi Ringatu was the only way that reo could travel through the generations. It was the only place the government allowed reo to exist because it was the only way that Māori would honour their God. And so we, we're constantly pulling between this in terms of, um, Māoritanga. But when it comes to the Christian Bible.. Well, I don't know. I don't think there's a problem with the Bible. I think there's a problem with some of the people, though. Um, I go back to, I think, the [00:16:30] earliest thing I know about is when Bishop Tamaki, I don't know his name, Bishop Brian, Brian? I love that I don't know his name. Um, he did a march against Takatapui people in Auckland, and instead of fighting or rebelling, they just held up these huge mirrors. To face them in protest to be like, look at what you're doing. Like, look at the [00:17:00] hate that you're sharing. Like you are the shameful ones. We're just living our lives in. And, and you're protesting against us. Um, so those are the kinds of things that I connect in terms of your, your korero. So I just want to open it up to the panel, uh, to touch on anything that came to mind for them about what we've just shared. Um, um, I [00:17:30] can speak to that. Um, so just to put it out there, I am a survivor of conversion practices. Um, And I blame myself a lot about that because I'm the one who put myself forward to it because I saw it as a resolution for the dispute I had with my fano and my sexuality and fast forward to now, I had to cut off my relationship with my brother because he just kept tormenting me with just [00:18:00] bible verses and Just conversations, he would just corner me in really unsafe, um, environments and just, just preach this ideology. And my parents and my brother still go to this church and to this pastor who conversion practices on me. And.. So and those exact verses is what they preach at you and be like, I remember this one thing He said that um, you know, like [00:18:30] when a thief resists trying to steal something like that's exactly what you didn't resist with your Urges towards men and I was like what? like and it's it was an interesting time of my life because I just It's gone overseas and I come to myself and I came out and, um, I found an amazing partner and I was just having this conversation and then it was just all came back to me and destroyed and all these nuances in my Catholic school upbringing came up and, and now [00:19:00] it's like I'm starting from scratch again. Um, facilitating that, that new relationship with my brother, my parents, my extended family who don't want anything to do with me. Yeah, sorry, that's my, how I relate, relate to that. Don't ever apologize. Ever, ever. Please. Oh my god. That's gotta be really hard. Um, I'm really privileged in terms of [00:19:30] relationships with my family. But um, yeah. I know of a lot of, like, a lot of my friends who have lost their families, and it really changes everything for them. And it, it becomes this thing where, like, as a, as a part of that community, you end up having to also hold that family responsibility. And, and I'm reflecting on this now, like, I didn't do that very well for my friend.[00:20:00] Who had lost their family or you know, who their family had lost them like because I didn't realize that's what we were doing as chosen families was having to repair that, that, that next level of intimacy that, um, like casual friends or acquaintances just don't have the privilege. To, to have, and yeah, I'm, yeah, I'm really sorry to hear that, and I just can't imagine what it would be like. Ai, [00:20:30] aroha. I just want to talk maybe about, um, yeah, about Te Whanau Whanau as this, um, I don't know if you're familiar with it, but it's a, um, yeah, this, it's a takatapui kapa haka roopu that, um, also does, um, yeah, it's like a community group, really, and, um, we've been part of, me and my whanau, we've been part of, like, my, my partner and my, And my tamaiti now as well. We've been part of it for the last few years and, [00:21:00] um, and yeah, it's really intergenerational. It's, it's like, um, people, it's only a small, a small group really, but, um, yeah, like, because it's intergenerational, we all, people bring lots of different stories. It's their own, their own stories into, into the space and um, and I think, yeah, that connection across generations, it doesn't have to be looking really far into the distance, like it's, it's right there in front of us, like those, it's not, yeah, [00:21:30] it's like, it's un, it's unbroken. Because, yeah, these people, people, yeah, like people from different generations, we're all here in the same space and yeah, and yeah, so. Yeah, to be able to, um, to be part of that roupu and, um, and also with my art practice as well to be able to bring, um, to, yeah, to do things with, with the, with the group as well that, um, that, yeah, give, give them something and they give me something. It's really, it's really [00:22:00] nice. Just for everybody who doesn't know what Te Whanau Whanau is, um, how would, say, anyone be able to come to the, to the kapa haka group, whānau? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, like, um, Oh, I should say as well, um, for the, I'm Kaikōrero, blonde curly one, um, the, um, it's every [00:22:30] Monday night, um, Kevin, Kevin, um, is part of the group as well, and, well, like, one of the leaders of it, and, yeah, you can just come along, it's on, um, Monday at 6. 30 at, um, it's at, it's still at the NZPC, eh, on Willis, Willis Street, um, what's the address? It's 204 Willis Street, yeah, and it's just real nice, we have a, have a kai, and, Um, sing some waiata, and, yeah, it's, everyone's welcome. [00:23:00] Kevin and, um, Elizabeth, kere kere, did you start Tiwhanawhana? Tiwhanawhana started in, from an idea in 2001. Uh, it was at a time when, um, there was a group of people here in Wellington, gay, across the rainbow communities, who were going across to Sydney for the Gay Games in Sydney in 2002. And so part of the [00:23:30] reason for Te Whanau Whanau coming together and it didn't have a name at that time was because we wanted to highlight that Takatapui were part of the wider rainbow community, um, in Wellington. And so there were, we wanted to show That there was, um, you know, diversity, more than just, um, sexual orientation, gender, and so forth. Um, that it was actually cultural, um, [00:24:00] as well. So, that's, that's, that's basically what Te Whanau Whanau, um, does, and has been doing. Um, and there's three things that we try and do, which makes it quite easy for us to, to be a continuous present, is to build community, so things like this. support community, um, a wider community. So looking both outside um, Takatāpui, looking towards Māori, [00:24:30] looking in all directions and providing a platform from which Takatāpui who want to get together, um, can engage. Um, with all these things going on, whether it's political or whether it's just a celebration at social housing, for Matariki, all of those types of things. We have street people will come in, we have people in Ministry of Foreign Affairs and you know, the government departments, they will come in. So there's been.. [00:25:00] Literally hundreds, uh, that have gone through, through Te Whanau Whanau. But the main, the main message, I guess, um, that I wanted to tautoko was around, um, we're actually all here. We are all here and everything is actually right in front of us and part of it. That's just about. about connecting, but also telling our stories. Uh, just to follow up on, um, on [00:25:30] Tiwhanawhana, is that also open to, uh, Tauiwi as well? It is. It is. The, um, Tiwhanawhana runs as best we can, according to us urban Māori here in, in, in Wellington, under our Māori framework. So it's, um, So that's what we always try and encourage and let people know.[00:26:00] The framework is dictated by Māori tikanga. It makes it easy then. Yeah, yeah. Natural. Um, I'm just going to start picking now. Um, because I know, Matt, um, that.. This is going to make me sound fancy. Hold on a minute. Matt has a masters in fine arts and he wrote his thesis, right? Is it a thesis? On [00:26:30] contemporary Māori identities outside of limiting ideas of essentialism. And I feel like a lot of this kōrero can relate to that kaupapa or from what I know about it. So from that perspective, um, can, can you say something? Yeah, so I just finished my masters last year actually. I think for me, my journey with, um, embracing my identity. So [00:27:00] I identify as queer. I know that some people don't like that term, but for me that's something that's felt quite comfortable for me. Um, I used to think of myself as gay, but then I was like, oh, I don't think I'm as gay as I thought I was. So now I'm like queer. big journey and um, it's been really wrapped up in my journey with um, reclaiming my Māoritanga as well. Um, so for me those kind of things really go hand in hand. Um, what I was really interested in with my master's research, um, which I [00:27:30] explored through, um, a lens based photography and video practice, um, was kind of the narratives, the dominant narratives that inform our identities. And how they can be really restrictive, um, and really limiting. And so sometimes if you identify as outside of that, you can feel, um, really displaced. And so my practice was around reclaiming some of those, um, identities, disrupting and displacing others. [00:28:00] And kind of just like really shaking up that space, um, and presenting myself as what might be perceived as a more ambiguous body. But for me, I'm just like, I'm comfortable as in myself and that I change and I shift so frequently. Um, Like, at the moment, I'm kind of like, oh, I, like, in my thesis, I was writing about how, like, some of my key identities are as Maori, queer, and male, and now I'm like, oh, actually, maybe we could [00:28:30] shift the male thing out a little bit, because, still, to me, I'm like, actually, that doesn't sit as well as it did at the time, and so, that's where I end my thesis as well, you know, that people, we're always shifting and evolving, and I think, for Maori, um, we are dynamic, and innovative and ingenuitive, um, and we can trace that through our, um, through our pūrākau. Um, and so I, I was thinking a lot about the trickster archetype as well, the identity of a trickster and how trickster [00:29:00] shapeshifts and they look at boundaries. Sometimes they create boundaries, sometimes they erase them, sometimes they move them and they find a lot of fun in that. And so for me, I find a lot of joy. And being, um, yeah, part of the rainbow community, um, and kind of cementing that within my Māoritanga as well. Um, and I think part of the joy is just, you know, like, [00:29:30] seeing other people, like, really struggling. Um, so like, a lot of times in the past, um, I've been growing my hair out. for this is, I think, year six now. Um, and there's an interesting point in growing my hair out where a lot of people would refer to me as um, ma'am or something from behind. They'd be like, Oh, excuse me, ma'am. I'm like, Oh, must be a real broad shouldered woman. Um, and then I turn around and they'd just be like, Like super, like, oh, I don't understand. And [00:30:00] like get really weird about it. And I was like, that's funny. And so, yeah, I think for me, I really enjoy disrupting and challenging norms that are really pervasive and really essentializing. And then just reminding people that we are so diverse and so dynamic. Kind of going off what you were saying, Kevin, we're really diverse. Um, and we have so much to bring to that, and kind of going off your quote earlier as well, Rangi Moana, is, [00:30:30] um, it's just a shame that people aren't ready to get excited about that, um, because yeah, I think our diversity is what excites me, um, yeah. But there's heaps of people that are excited about it. There are. So that's good, yeah. Actually, yeah, you're right. I think there's more people excited by it. But unfortunately, those ones who aren't are really, really loud. I mean, just, yeah, it's just hard to get them to stop talking so much. Um, yeah. To [00:31:00] relate to your kōrero, I'm gender fluid. So, and also, like, a little bit ambiguous. So oftentimes people will say, Oh, what are your pronouns? And I'm like, he, she, they, ear. And they're like, Oh, but I don't want to get it wrong. And I'm like, you can't get it wrong. Just leave me alone. Like the whole point of why I'm gender fluid is because I don't want to have this conversation with you. I just want to like. Be a human and go about my day and it's just really tricky when you give [00:31:30] people no boundaries. They don't know what to do. They're like, please just, just help me. And I'm like, help yourself. You've got the tools go away. And, and yeah, people navigate it, you know, before, uh, Takata Pui Hui or something. They're like, Oh, she, they, she, they, and then after they're like, there he is. And you're like, Oh, calm down. So like. Um, yeah, social dynamics are really interesting to navigate. It's [00:32:00] that, yeah, I was just relating. Um, I'm aware of time and I want to make sure everybody gets a chance to speak. So I'm just gonna divert away. Okay, I think I'm going to structure this properly. Um, so I do want to hear from, um, you a little bit more, Nekemoa. Um, because you're a Ringatoi, hey, and there are a [00:32:30] few of us that are Ringatoi here, and I don't think anyone's really talked about a perspective coming from a Ringatoi. And, um, yeah, so I just want to read a bit about you. So, um, here it says, Nekemoa employs.. Traditional techniques such as hoanga, which is handheld grinding stones, as well as uses electric machinery and diamond tools, and conceives of her practice as a [00:33:00] spiritual continuation of a whakapapa that extends back to te ao kohatu. Um, and that's beautiful. And, um, yeah, I was just wondering if you could touch, touch a bit about, about that, about your, your, your mahi toi and how it relates to, um, your identity. [00:33:30] Um, we were talking about that on the way up, like Moka, because, you know, going from Ōtaki, up to down, up, around, to here, is an hour, sitting there. So, um, I thought I'd talk a little bit about, um, what I'm doing at the moment. Because otherwise, all the lead up into that will just take over, because I'm old. I'm middle aged now. But, um, so I'm, um, work with, um, [00:34:00] contemporary jewellery, adornment, objects is kind of my area. And, uh, I say mahi a ringa, mahi a wairua. And I work with, do a lot of collaborating with, um, I say materials. Um, I gather materials from Ōtaki Beach, from, um, from all around the place. Kohatu shells, you see a piece here, I work with fibre, muka mainly, um, whatever [00:34:30] else comes along. And then, through that, also is collaborating with my partner here, Paula, um, who is a tōhunga from Taranaki. And we collaborate on, recently, for the last couple of years. So we're bringing out a lot of atua stories, and these atua stories are kind of really informing my work in many ways, and it's maybe it's during the process of making, or it's after it's finished, and then we're always talking about, you know, um, [00:35:00] what's happening in the world, what's currency, what's going on in the taiao. You know, because really connecting on that level, um, is not just, you know, it's hauora stuff. It's um, really grounding for me as an artist, because now I'm a full time kaitoi. I've taken a, all those little part time jobs, those bread and butter lines. I've decided just to go hard out with just making what I need to make and just following that kaupapa. So, in that way, [00:35:30] um, I'm being authentic and being pono. And tika to that path is really, um, bringing out the mahi and bringing out a lot of these, um, atua stories. And Paula has a background, um, that allows for that connection, that hononga with atua, to bring these stories forth and to, um, And really to go, to start moving towards these lesser known atua, you know, cause we all sort of go for the top ten a lot.[00:36:00] That's fine, cause that's what we know, cause that's what's written, right? That's one of our stories, and a lot of stories that are shared are from the missionary times, and purākaua, and there's.. So many, um, ways of how we used to interpret our stories through, uh, whakaurau, through the weaving. And these stories and these ways of us relating, it's kind of been a bit lost. And our tohunga haven't been able to really, um, bring some of these stories to light. But now I see.. This is coming. There's a [00:36:30] real uprising in indigenous knowledge and the sharing is becoming more easily and readily available. And through toy, uh, through art, we can really, and creativity in all forms, uh, we can relate on so many more levels. And that's through performance based stuff, that's through.. Um, what I do, Object, um, through photography, through everything, you know? Just showing in that way, I feel, um, that our [00:37:00] creativity is really connecting us to each other and to the atua. So, um, we brought along, we brought along a few pieces today from, cause we, I was at Nelson Jewellery Week. Couple of months ago, and we were part of the very first queer jewellers show, which is really awesome. Yeah, queer jewellery show And it was called Licky And um, so there was like, how many of us? There was like seven of us to start with and it's just gonna be something that We're all gonna [00:37:30] do now. We're just gonna sort of thought well We haven't had a queer show and so there's quite a few queer jewellers from Australia, a couple from Australia Quite a few from here, and so that was our first showing And I thought, oh, okay, this is a good kaupapa, I want to do something new, and sort of, um, think about how we can relate, you know, what I can do. And then I just started making a few, um, pieces. Uh, the first piece that I made was called, um, Ko ia. And, you know, it's really just relating to, um, gender, [00:38:00] pronouns, and English. Like, English sucks, you know. Just everyone speak Māori, and then you've got three choices, right? Problem solved. Ko hau, ko koe, ko ia, you know? You're no problem. So I made a sort of a piece to go with that, and I thought, oh yeah, let's do that one. And then, um, these two sort of came up. So this is, um, uh, Ko taku aroha noa, the greatest love of all. And it kind of, um, and it's looking at Hina, [00:38:30] Hina and Rona's story. And really, um, we had done Rona and Hina's story in a previous, uh, Exhibition and I thought I just really wanted to bring that to light again within the queer context. Um, because, um, in the story that kind of evolved with us, it was Hina was, came to Rona as a woman. Because she had to come to Rona as a woman. Because of who Rona was. Um, Rona was a slave. She was, um, had been taken by an [00:39:00] iwi and she was treated terribly. Inhumanely and was stripped of her mana. And she karakia'd to the atua, she karakia'd, she karakia'd, and Hina saw that karakia and thought well what an amazing karakia that she had put forth, and how amazing she was there, even though she was stripped bare, she stood in her power. And so, um, and then they fell in love, and then um, as you all know, well, ah. Other pūrākau say they lived in the midst of [00:39:30] somewhere, but for them, wherever it was they lived, they were home, because they were together. So that was another story I really wanted to highlight within this, our stories that we kind of know of, but that this one is really related to us as Takatāpui. But also Hina and the Atua are genderless. Atua are genderless, you know, they choose. When it's time, maybe I want to do that with.. It's not about, um, gender. They usually have [00:40:00] a kaupapa of some kind that is way above gender. Gender is very much a human thing. But if we look to our atua, you know, the Bible, never mind, that doesn't include us really. We don't, you know, and I think our Maori stories, because we are here, they are really really important and valuable for all of us. And those stories really have a lot of, um, They've done it. They've been there. Those Atua? They've already done it. They've been there. They're showcasing it to you. [00:40:30] They say, listen, I've done that. I've been there. Listen to me. Here's the story for you. Here's the Atua for you. And so I think you can talk about.. And then just this one piece that she's wearing here at the moment. called Hine Mau Ahua was the other piece that I had made. Can I just talk to her? Um, Mau Ahua is important, but more important now than probably before. So the separation of the parents that we've heard of, Tuanuku [00:41:00] and Ranginui, Mau Ahua is one of the older ones. So already settled, already hanging out. I don't need you to tell me what to do but I'm going to take a bit of time to figure out who I am, who am I, what am I good at. Turns out Moahua was good at that. Who am I, what is my truth, what is your truth, what is your truth, do you need help to see who you are? Which means that for other asoa, no, not so [00:41:30] popular because it's a bit challenging really to have something to go, Hey, here you are. In this context, as we're talking right now, here you are. And lots of people in history, we haven't had a world. That's okay. So, I also am old. Not as old. I also am old. I belong to a generation where, like, here's some [00:42:00] deep internal thinking I need to do. Quick, get me a mat, uh, mat and a broom, cause that's where that lives. So, I didn't have a lot of time for mo'ahua. And I was thinking, mo'ahua is someone that can show you your true self. And it could be scary, or it could be really relieving and amazing and freeing. But mo'ahua would not be an atua if that was the only [00:42:30] job mo'ahua did. Mo'ahua also challenges the person beside you. Because it wouldn't be fair for an usher to go, Here is your true self. See ya. Have fun. In your whanau context, here is this person's true self. Every single one of us here. Let's work that out for you. And then the challenge is for the person beside you to figure out how to accept that. And [00:43:00] that's why Mo'ahua is so important because it's easy for, after I've been on my journey to figure out where I am today, I can get focused on that. And sometimes I might forget how am I going to support you on your journey today. So, and moʻahua is really reflective, so that can be fun, it can be painful, and it can be confusing, or it's just a challenge, [00:43:30] it's a challenge, um, that's who moʻahua is, but with my bubble gum, I could talk about this and bore you for so long, but I, um, I'm probably the oldest person here because I'm in my mid 70s, but so I'm talking about when I was 16 or [00:44:00] 17. And that is we're talking about the early sixties and when I was doing these things, I had to learn that if people actually challenged me, I had to use their own weapons to challenge them. That's what I'm talking about. Um, it's And coming that if you were where I was from, it was [00:44:30] Anglicanism, Anglicanism, Anglicanism. And they used to tell us that we had to be Christian first and Maori second. Today, I am Māori, well I'm Ngāti Porou first, but I am Māori second, if you like. But, those things, and I agree with what everyone is saying, because there is change, and but, I still have to keep challenging those who will challenge Us as a people, and that's what I'm [00:45:00] saying. I certainly have a look at all these things, and I've learned something tonight about the Atua, which I hadn't thought about before, and so those things are important to me, but I will continue challenging people with their own, with their own tayahar, if you like, because.. I won't rest on it. People keep saying to me, Oh, Māori, it's just about land. It's just about reo. I said, no. We're into [00:45:30] women's rights. We are there to family. We come from families. We are there to be with other people who have Difficulties because the main, um, our people, our, our, our, our governments and that. Nothing has ever been given to us as Maori. We have fought all the way. And I get this thing about people saying, in the 60s, you got special housing. And I went, no, [00:46:00] you had it in the 30s, 40s. 50s and 60s and onwards, and Maori housing in that time, all Maori housing had to be one third the size less of other people because they were frightened that we would bring in our old people. That's where a lot of the language has gone. I am lucky because I was brought up for the first three years amongst people who couldn't speak English. I'm not [00:46:30] saying, I'm not defending myself on this. I'm saying I will fight people with the taiaha that they use against me. Kia ora tatou. And I think, like, it's interesting because as a ringatoi, you kind of do the same. You do the same thing with toi. You challenge those constructs. Well, at least I did anyway. I went to university and then when I got out I was [00:47:00] like, what is this? the structure that I challenge now. Um, so yeah, I think it is the smartest thing to do really, because they can't fight themselves. Well, you know, Moahua isn't there to tell them this is what you look like. And so when we go back to them with the same weapons, then That's what we do. So maybe there's a bit of mau ahua in all of us. And I also want to [00:47:30] acknowledge both of your kōrero. Like, I learnt, I learnt a lot and I want to sit here and ask you fellas a million questions about that kaupapa. And especially about the first, um, queer jewellery exhibition. Heaps of questions there as well, and I just hope we get another opportunity to, to revisit those korero too. We're a bit tight on time, but I'm just going to try and push my luck [00:48:00] because I'm the convener. So I've got a few questions as well. So, like, Louis, you're also a Ringo Toi, and in your practice, um, you look at the relationship between, or I should say, like, you work around, uh, developing A sense of identity in your practice with your whakapapa and your takatapuitanga, is that right? I just read this two minutes ago. [00:48:30] Um, can you speak a little bit more to that? Because I'm really interested to see where the lines connect between all of our kaupapa and they connect in my brain, but my gum is just running out of taste and I can't seem to do it. But um, yeah, I would love to hear about how, how your practice is also. Relative to your Māoritanga and your Takatāpuitanga. Yeah, yeah, well like what I relate to, um, that like through, through making my [00:49:00] art, I've, um, I've been able to, I'm, yeah, which hasn't happened for many generations now, but we, yeah, in my whānau at least, yeah, and, um, yeah, so the, I started out with making, um, te kouka, it was in the lockdown, um, in the first lockdowns, I was like making art for uni projects and, um, And I found tea coca lying on the ground everywhere and, um, It's [00:49:30] like cabbage tree leaves, and so I, um, I learned how to make taura, make ropes from it, and, um, I can pass this round if you want to have a hold. But, um, yeah, that, that was a way to, um, it was, I think, the COVID lockdowns made everyone quite, like, introspective as well, because it was so.. Yeah, so it was quite confronting to be alone at home for so long, and, um, and so, yeah, so, my, um, some of my, my kaiako at, [00:50:00] um, at uni, they encouraged me to, um, to learn more about my whakapapa, and, um, to, yeah, to, um, to embrace this, this tikoka, um, because our, our tupuna would have used this for a lot of different things, it's, like, really strong, and, um, It doesn't break down in seawater, so you can use it for making nets and, um, and, um, fishing lines and things like that. Um, and, yeah, I think, I [00:50:30] think the, when I, when I make, I make, like, body adornment things as well, like, and, well, in, I don't know, in some ways it's similar to neck hair, but, um, but those, those become performances, like, um, I, I, like, make something I can wear and then I perform in it. I think performance is a really cool, um, a really cool place to be able to, um, like push, push yourself to, um, do whatever you really want to be doing. And it's kind of like [00:51:00] creating, creating like a, your dreams into real life. And it's like really happening as well. It's, um, it's like every, and everyone's experiencing it with you. And so, um, that's, um, yeah, it's really, it's. That's been a really, um, important way for me to, um, to be able to figure out what I, what I really want to be doing, and it is such a privilege as well because to have that space and time to be able to do that, like, that, yeah, I think everyone would benefit from that, but we're all, we're all, we [00:51:30] all have to work jobs as well, and like, yeah, so I feel really lucky. And, so I think, uh, we've heard a lot about, you know, this being a Takatāpui hui, we've heard a lot about how Our identity is connected to our Māoritanga and, um, I just want to acknowledge Sean here who, [00:52:00] who, um, is, is from Sri Lanka and, um, I'm also a little bit nosy, you know, after hearing the, the kind of conversations here, Um, I also want to get your perspective on how, um, how what you do is relative to, to your culture or to your, whanau, perhaps?[00:52:30] Am I being too nosy? No, no, no. Okay, thank you. Nose away. Um, so my mahi, that pays my rent, um, I am a, um, equity consultant for a place called PwC. An equity, not like private equity, but like inclusion, diversity. Um, that sort of copapa, um, but if a background to that though, I, my bachelor's degree is in architecture and spatial design and clearly I'm not [00:53:00] practicing anymore because I had this realization towards the end of my bachelor's degree and also coming out that there are enough designers out there making beautiful spaces for the ultra privileged. I don't need to be adding to that anymore. And I started exploring that identity and then my master's degree, I pivoted completely added a design degree in exhibition design, particularly exploring and decolonizing the idea of storytelling and how [00:53:30] we convey narratives that is not in a museum. Um, and then I graduated into covert. Um, and it was a very isolating time. I guess it was for all of us. And, um, I was confronted by a lot of stuff that I had been putting off for a while. And because I was alone in my room for. Eight hours a day. 'cause I just had a job that couldn't be done online. Um, and it was also during the, the, the b l M movement and I started doing my research. I was like, oh my, what is this [00:54:00] advocacy thing? I was like, I didn't. And then fast forward to today, um, I found fire in, um, having this challenging conversations with, through, through a corporate lens. I know, I know capitalism, but, um, I'm in there. I'm, I'm trying to flip the table. Okay. . Um, And what led to, um, me being here is that I did some work alongside the artist Shannon Novak, um, who, um, has been in deep with the [00:54:30] Make Visible project. And, actually, the collaboration itself came out of chance, because I just started at PWC, I had no idea what I was doing. And I kind of asked the people, like, hey, like, what are some, um, queer networks I can join? It's a very sterile environment. Um, and they're like, oh, we just had, this is a guy called Sharon Novak, he's interested in, he used to work for PwC, and he wants to do something. I was like, oh yeah, I can have a conversation. They wanted something for pride month for one week. I was like, I'm here [00:55:00] every day. I'm not just here for the week. Um, you use my intellectual property to make billions of dollars. Um, I need to be recognized every day. And so through months of conversation of that with Shannon and me sharing my story from my Sri Lankan culture and also my Faka Papa to Europe. Um. Came this piece of art called the blossoming some of you might have seen it It's a well the brief was we want some [00:55:30] rainbows on a piece of on a glass. I was like Let's not do that so we took the rainbow the beautiful colors that presents and so in Sri Lanka the national flower is the lotus flower and for those who don't know Depending on the soil and the area of the country it grows in, it grows in different hues. And, uh, so there's blues, purples, pinks, uh, white is very common as well. [00:56:00] And I really love the metaphor for that because it can also grow from mud, it has to grow in mud, and as it comes out of water, it comes out so beautiful and clean and pure, and I thought that was a really similar metaphor for what, uh, BIPOC people go through quite often, um, now, and we come out beautiful even through, we go through all this shit we go through, and so, if you look it up, it's an art piece that's got all these Rainbow colors, not in the [00:56:30] order that we normally know. And the lotus flowers through it as well, where each petal is a different color. So, that's really long. I hope that answers the question. No. No? Sorry, sorry. That was fantastic. Yeah. I got some flavor in my gum again. Oh, I'm glad. No, that was very great and very gay and I just feel a lot more femur. Where can we look it up? You just said [00:57:00] look it up. Um, it's on the WCC website. It's called The Blossoming. And because it was successful, and the Amazing Tori final was commented on it. Now all the offices across the country has, um, this art in different iterations. Yeah, yeah. And it's really awesome because PwC China and Australia have picked up on it and they want to have conversations. I was like, oh, pay me better and I'll talk to you. So did that, um, Shannon lead to your role being [00:57:30] created? The diversity? Um, yeah, kind of. Not created. It, I, it. It helped me chisel my way through PwC, which is a very, again, sterile environment, and now I am an equity consultant and I'm, I've started this mahi within advisory for queer rights and currently, because of that, that opportunity actually, and through Adhika Aotearoa, which I'm a trustee of, uh, I work at the Human Rights Commission at the moment using my lived experience as a conversion [00:58:00] practice survivor, advising the conversion practices response team. I'm creating resources that acknowledge the murky past and to have those really difficult conversations with faith groups and schools and just anyone who just wants to learn about it and also challenge the law as well because it doesn't cover a lot. It's very high level. Um, see that's how, yeah, that was amazing. [00:58:30] It's got the snowball rolling down the hill. It's still rolling though. I need to stop it for a bit. Hence the two pieces of gum in my mouth, always. Wow, thank you. Thank you for sharing. That's fantastic. I have heaps of things to ask you, but we don't have enough time. Um, so maybe you've got to come back next time. Maybe. Um, just the last piece, because I want to make sure everyone gets it. Um, we've heard about Te Whanau Whanau. Um, we're from the same place. So, [00:59:00] but you grew up in Murupara where some of my whanau grew up as well. What I want to talk to you about is what could potentially lead into how we talk about today. And this is specifically around community building. Um, We've had some pretty challenging past conversations and some, uh, talks about individual, how people are dealing with Takatapuitanga [00:59:30] in their own individual way, um, and now we want to get to, like, what, what, what are some of the things that we The things that, that we can all implement, in terms of taking from your, your experience with community building, to building our own community, or our own kaupapa, moving on from today. Yeah, I'm not sure. Yeah. But, what I would like to.. To talk about, this [01:00:00] is a really good way of saying, well, I'll talk about some of the things that I don't mind. I don't mind. So, one of the things I was thinking about in terms of today was what was connection in terms of the arts. And so, if I reflect on, um, Tiwhanawhana, um, it provided a platform for waiata. And so we started to develop our own waiata. So even back in the day of the Destiny Church. As a response to that March was composed [01:00:30] and I composed that one called , and part of that was a reflection. And on back to, uh, our Maori, because the face of the church was very much Maori, um, was that, uh, as , we, we occupied all parts of our, wherever we were within our Maori settings, whether we were. Whether we were [01:01:00] kaikaranga, whether we were kaikōrero, whether we were in the kitchen, whether we were carers, all of those things, I wanted to reflect it back. Um, so it's through waiata that has provided a mechanism to reflect and also to challenge. You know, even down to, at the moment, waiata has been created for Georgina. Um, and the reason why is.. to [01:01:30] acknowledge Georgina, but you don't hear many waiata about whakawahine. So, you know, it's about putting these things out there. Um, so the things that I'm, I'm really, uh, quite focused on at the moment is around the use of our reo, uh, and the use of, uh, and the whakapapa that goes with the reo. to talk about ourselves. Um, so I'm quite protective of, [01:02:00] of ensuring that we understand our own distinction between how other ways of culturally looking at what might be called LGBTI, tēmea, tēmea, tēmea, um, is not necessarily, or it isn't the same from a Māori perspective. So my My interest is, is around, um, what is our deal? What is our, what are the words that [01:02:30] we, we could be using to describe ourselves? I mean, we, we describe ourselves as AKA Tap, and there's a of how that came to be, but uh, now everyone's calling themselves pu is that what was intended? Or should we have another word? You know, those sort of things to, to think about. I've, um, So that's really what I wanted to say in connection, in terms of the art, the kupu. Waiata is [01:03:00] one way of being able to, to express, express something. Um, I really love the story about Mau Ahua, I think, for myself I must have found out about, about Mau Ahua in terms of my own reflection very, very young. And then I became Ahua, Huna, you know, and then, but all of that chip trade thing that occurred. Because of, of, um, the society that we, uh, I was brought up in. Brought up in, [01:03:30] I'm, I'm involved with quite a few things at the moment, and one of the things that I was looking at today, um, was with Louis Wall. Louisa was over at the Indigenous Forum in Geneva about, and she's asking me, you know, I'm going to have this L G B T QA plus plus plus, um, opening, uh, with these other people and, and, and what she was focusing on was the, um, doctrine of discovery and so mm-hmm. . [01:04:00] Some people might know about this, but I won't go into what, what it is, except to say that it has had a huge impact on colonization and the way that we are today. So those things are still there. And so I, I You know, people who are able to challenge things in the way that they, uh, use their skills to challenge those things. But, also, I'm thinking [01:04:30] we need to be thinking beyond all of this. You know, go back to our mountains, as they say, and, and, and, and, and create the world that, um, probably was always there before. And I'm not just saying that we were perfect before as Maori, because we weren't. We're like the gods, the atua, so, um, but, you know, to, to keep striving, um, towards, [01:05:00] towards that. I hope next year, um, and possibly October or November next year, there will be a national Takata Pui Hui, and I would love to see kui art, and also the kōrero that comes with that, at that particular forum. And many other things that could be, um, talked about, not necessarily at that one forum alone, but in the year leading up to it, to be able to have Waimana like this. So that, you [01:05:30] know, we can capture these things and share amongst our family. Kia ora. That was way better than my question anyway. Aroha mai, I didn't realize, um, you composed that waiata. That's awesome. Um, kua mutu tātou. Um, ai, so if anyone has any closing remarks, um, before I hand it over, I just want to say thank you everybody for [01:06:00] coming. Um, please stay in touch with everyone here. Uh, come back to the next Hui, where I'm sure we will have more Wananga than, um, or extra Wananga. Uh, yeah, it's, it's been really awesome. Thank you for having me. Um, I've really enjoyed being nosy. Um, aye. Now, karakia is a chant. [01:06:30] You keep your eyes open. You don't have to close them. Okay.[01:07:00] [01:07:30] [01:08:00] No.[01:08:30] .

IRN: 3605
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/resist_transphobia_rally_8_june_2023.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004718
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093108
TITLE: Resist Transphobia rally
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VOICES: Chanel Hati; Elizabeth Kerekere; Gina Dao-McLay; Noah Darney; Renee Paul; Theo Cook; Tiaki Sharp; Tristan-Cordelia; Will Hansen; Wren Atlas
INTERVIEWER: Will Hansen
TAGS: 2020s; ACT New Zealand; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland City Council; Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Act 2021; Canterbury; Carmen Rupe; Chanel Hati; Chrissy Witoko; Christianity; Civic Square / Te Ngākau; Elizabeth Kerekere; Fired Up Stilettos; Gay Liberation Front Auckland; Gay Liberation Front Christchurch; Gay Liberation Front Rotorua; Georgina Beyer; Gina Dao-McLay; God; Green Party; Jennifer Edwards; Leopards Eating People's Faces Party; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Mama Tere Strickland; Marsha P. Johnson; Member of Parliament; Michael Fowler Centre; Māori; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; Noah Darney; Out in the Pool (Wellington); Pindi Hurring; Posie Parker; Queer Endurance / Defiance; Rainbow Room; Renee Paul; Sandy Gauntlett; Speak Up For Women NZ; Theo Cook; Tiaki Sharp; Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); Tristan-Cordelia; Wellington; Will Hansen; Wren Atlas; bigotry; bodily autonomy; capitalism; chant; cis female; colonisation; diversity; feminism; furry; gay liberation movement; gender marker; gender politics; heteronormativity; history; human rights; intersex; lesbian; marriage equality; non-binary; pacifism; privilege; racism; sex work; takatāpui; trans; trans man; trans woman; transexual; transgender; transphobia; transphobic violence; voting age; whakawahine; white supremacy
DATE: 8 June 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Parliament grounds, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the rally held on Thursday 8 June 2023 in Parliament grounds, Wellington. The rally was organised by Queer Endurance/Defiance to counter a rally being held at the same time by Speak Up For Women. Special thanks to the organisers and participants for allowing the rally to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm Tristan Cordelia. She, they, um, I'm from Queer Endurance Defiance. We are a leftist queer activist group. Uh, we've been around since early 2021. Um, this is our, this is the third, um, counter rally for trans rights in as many months. Um, so we did a big one at Civic Square. We did another one here on Parliament Grounds about a month ago, and now we're doing this one. Um, essentially whenever [00:00:30] anti-trans hate speakers or hate groups show up, we turn up to counter them, um, because it's important that our community feels safe, um, and that if someone is spreading hatred against us, we make a show to say, Hey, this isn't actually okay. You can't just go around, um, proclaiming that we don't have a right to exist. Um, we are gonna turn up and show that we do have a right to exist, um, and try and outnumber and out, out voice you. Yeah, that's fantastic. Um, can [00:01:00] you tell me how you came to get involved in Queer Endurance Defiance? So, in mid 2021, um, the same head group as today, S U F W were planning a rally outside, um, Marco Fowler Center. Um, they had done a series around the country and the tactic that the, um, queer community and queer organizations are using against them at that time was almost exclusively de platforming, trying to deny them access to venues. Um, that backfired because they took, [00:01:30] um, one of, they took Auckland City Council to court. They won that. Um, thus they were not only, were not de platformed, but they were able to present themselves as victims. Um, so there were a few people in, um, Facebook group that I'm in who suggested maybe that's not the most successful tactic and we should actually turn up and counter them. Um, this was a minority opinion, but one that I agreed with. So I contacted people who were. Proposing this tactic and we organized the counter rally. It was, we got about a thousand people compared [00:02:00] to less than a hundred of the opposition. Um, even though it was a really miserable day, it was quite rainy. Um, and we blew up our amp trying to protect it from the rain. Um, we had still had a good rally. We all like sung songs. Um, chanted, had some speeches. Um, it's just a really good vibe. And then earlier this year, when a far right. Transferred from the UK visited, we decided to do the same thing again. It had an even better turnout, had [00:02:30] almost 5,000 people. Um, so we're keeping doing that work. We also do other work like, um, drafting an amendment, um, to the BDM R R Act, the past recently to try and retain some ability for people born overseas to change their gender markers. Um, and we've got a campaign for improved transgender healthcare in New Zealand, um, which we've, we launched last year and we are doing a big push for that this year cause that's really important. Um, yeah. And then we also do [00:03:00] work around, around like removing uniform police and military from pride, um, and supporting other groups that we are, you know, that, that are doing work that we think is great. Um, whether that's fired up stilettos, um, or anti-racist groups or, um, pro-choice demonstrations. Uh, yeah. Thank you so much. I mean, I'm certainly super grateful that you are all putting this event on because it's super important. Yeah. Um, uh, can you, uh, describe for me some of the, um, kind of, uh, [00:03:30] factors that go into organizing something like this? Like around, um, safety and, uh, things like that? Yeah. Um, so firstly, making sure that we have enough marshals is important. Making sure that we have safety gear, um, making sure that we have, we all meet beforehand, we have agreed on set of principles, um, how we are going to approach the people that we are in opposition against. Um, we don't directly confront them. Um, yeah. Yeah. And, uh, what would you say to the [00:04:00] rainbow people who are going to be speaking on the speak up for women's side over there? Um, just that you don't have to go, that you don't have to crawl towards old age, full of hate. Like you have people in your family who absolutely are trans. Um, even if you don't know it, and. Your, you know, your prejudice is damaging to them and you don't need to retain that. Yeah. My name's leash. I am, we're at the counter protest [00:04:30] for, uh, there's some transphobes about to be turning up and we are just here to tell them. My understanding is that they're here to be like LGB without the t kind of people, and I'm here as someone who is part of the B and part of the T to be like, uh, that's not, that's not what the community's about. You can't, you can't ask for inclusion and, and, and like for one section of our community while trying actively hating and excluding the next, I'm sorry I'm totally ranting, but [00:05:00] like, it just grounds my gears that they would, that privileged members of our community are so happy to conform to this heteronormative. Like cess normative, fucking like capitalistic grind that we're all forced to con, you know, and they've found a certain amount of safety in there, and then they turn around and shit on us. You know, like we've been talking a lot [00:05:30] this like past like six months about the lipids eating your face party. Uh, that, that totally like saying the panthers are fine, you know, and that they're not, they're going, the leopards are gonna eat their face. Oh my God. And it's just, I find it so frustrating that they're willing to let the leopards eat us when we could be like allies and like brethren and like comrades, but no, apparently not. Oh, that's fantastic. [00:06:00] Um, can you, um, describe for me what's going on around us right now? Uh, well, we've got a lot of really awesome marshals. I, I understand that it's two groups. It's the, um, poor Nikki Antifascist, um, The organization, and it's also another organization which I can't remember the name of, but two really cool organizations, um, are like, you know, organizing a bunch of awesome queer people to fucking stand just, you know, peacefully stand and, and, [00:06:30] and make a statement that we are not, that the rainbow community is a full rainbow. Awesome. Um, and, uh, what would you like to say to the Rainbow people speaking as part of the anti-trans rally? Uh, I think I've already touched on a couple of things, but it saddens me that the, the lie has worked on them. The lie that if they just conform enough that they'll be safe, um, it's sad. It's, it makes me [00:07:00] angry because they're willing to sacrifice other people's safety for their own feeling of safety. Um, so that, that saddens me. But I'm also sad on their behalf. Yeah, it, it, it saddens me on my behalf and on their behalf. That's kind of, yeah. No, thank you. And um, given that it's um, an election year, oops. A badge has fallen off your buy badge. That's awesome. Um, given that it's an election year, uh, what would you say like to say to any politicians that might be listening to this? I think [00:07:30] I was talking about this last night and it's not 2012, you know, like we need politicians to risk something. We need them to stand up and cuz their dog whistles are being actively spoken in parliament right now. Nazi dog whistles, um, I can't think of an example, but they're fucking, uh, like mothers and fathers need to be looking after children like that, that sort of thing are being said in parliament [00:08:00] without much contestation. And it's like, that is wild to me. So I need more. Just mainstream politicians to stand up and like fucking say shit out loud. Um, I also think it's incredibly important. This is like a, seems like a side issue, but I really want politicians to take seriously lowering the voting age to 16. I think that's a huge, um, way of empowering all of New Zealand [00:08:30] to be invested in their future. Um, I remember being 16 myself and, and missing an election because I was, you know, 16 and I was, well maybe I was 17, but I like the youth of today are invested in our democratic process and I think it'd be so cool to like see them be able to. Act that out as versus just talking about it. Like I remember talking about it. Yeah. I've got Jay. So yeah. Kodo. My name's Gina. My [00:09:00] pronouns are they them. I'm a Green Party candidate this year for the upcoming election in Mana. Um, and we're at the counter protests today supporting, um, trans rights here with a lot of, uh, other members of the community and allies as well. Awesome. Can you tell me why it's important for you to be here today? Uh, yeah. As a trans person, as a non-binary person, it's really important to be, yes, sitting here with, um, other members of my community against, against hate, and then against these people that don't really wish for us to exist. Um, you know, I'm here. I know that I exist. I'm a real person and I know, um, all of us out here just want to be treated the same [00:09:30] way that everyone else does and respected too. Yes. Fantastic. Um, and can you tell me, um, what, what, what's kind of going on around us at the moment as we're getting ready? Yeah, it's, uh, starting to turn up. So lots of people are, are coming through lots of, uh, beautiful pride flags are being worn and rainbows, um, as well as people holding signs. Um, the other side doesn't seem to have too many on, uh, out there just yet, but, um, we're feeling good and excited for what's about to happen. So,[00:10:00] um, so welcome everyone. Welcome all. Um, we are here today for a peaceful protest. Um, we stand for collective wellbeing, including a need for the protection and support of the trans members of our community, and for the rights of all of those marginalized to be included and to be safe in society. Woo. We stand strongly against the anti-trans rhetoric, disinformation and conspiracy theories, and against the far [00:10:30] rights politics of violence, hatred, and fear of trans people. In the future, it may be necessary to confront the threats they pose more directly, but today is not that day. Today, we are gathering peacefully to demonstrate and resist. Specifically, we are resisting an extremely harmful view, spouted by a very small number of their leaders and by agitators within their ranks. With that in mind, we urge you to adhere to our COPPA by doing the following things. Attack the trans ideology. Don't attack the individuals. They've been misled and [00:11:00] lied to by charlatans, and it's not our job to change their minds individually. Be part of the community. Look out for one another. When you go and find a public loo, go and come back with buddies. When it's time to leave, leave with buddies. Always stick together and keep everyone safe. Include everyone, talk to one another and have fun. This is also a celebration of the diversity of our community. Have fun with that community. Look after this. F [00:11:30] uh, please don't litter. Please find a toilet if you need to go, um, pick up anything you brought with you and take it home at the end. Um, Uh, and okay, so this is now the important safety information. All of our marshals today are wearing the orange vests. Most of them are behind me, some of them are behind you. Um, follow their leadership. Our goal collectively today, um, is to deescalate potentially dangerous situations and to ensure that we successfully counter protest the turfs without any of our community coming to harm. And so that's really important. Um, [00:12:00] usually our first aid and welfare team are wearing green, but today, if they could just raise their hands. Um, Sarah and, and Phillip, if you just wanna put your hands up, these are our two medics today. Um, a couple others have first aid training. If you need anything, either come to the speaker here and I can get their attention or find one of those two and they can help out. They've got, um, medic training and first aid kits on them. Um, so, uh, crucially, um, these guys are not a substitute for an ambulance. And in a critical situation, please call 1 1 1. Um, We're not setting out to [00:12:30] be arrested. And obviously the goal today is to be non-confrontational. Um, but in the event that you are arrested, um, we have spoken with a lawyer who's willing, uh, to help out, um, a few of our marshals have their number saved, and you can write that on your arm if you need it. Um, and also important watch out for far right media. Um, trying to create incriminating footage of you all, um, disrupt their footage or move away as you feel fits the circumstances best and you feel comfortable doing a really good strategy is just to hold your signs up in front of their camera. Um, but follow the Marshalls lead on that [00:13:00] because we also have some actual journalists who are here to record, um, record our mahi today. So that's really important. Um, cool. So, uh, overview of how the day is going to go. You're all going to have a wonderful time, be your wonderful selves and you're gonna talk with and look out for each other and have fun. Um, the turfs over there will be gathering sort of pretty soon. I can see a few of them over there already, uh, one o'clock-ish and, um, they'll end when they end. Um, we're not quite sure of their. Timeframe. Um, but there will [00:13:30] also almost definitely be other right-wing groups heading to Parliament. We had those guys last time, so keep an eye out for them and they might possibly be coming from different directions, um, from the turf. So just make sure that you keep an eye out and keep yourself safe. We're protesting all of these groups, um, and we're letting it be known that they don't speak for and decide what's best for trans people, for women, um, for queer people, and for all of those in our community. Um, but we are not gonna stop them from coming onto Parliament Grounds. This is a public space. Um, the barriers that have been set up very clearly [00:14:00] delineate, um, the spaces that we are, um, able to occupy today. Um, and, and it's important that we don't prevent anyone else from exercising that right as well. Um, also on that note, you can see where this barrier is set up here. We're gonna try and not go any closer to them than that, that, um, Poster, that big, um, fabric poster is, um, just in the interest of not escalating any kind of conflict. Um, cool. So we'll be staying here. The plan is to stay until about two o'clock. You can obviously leave earlier [00:14:30] if you've got other commitments, you're not forced to stick around. Um, and we might extend that a little bit if they're still speaking. So we're not gonna head off while they're still holding their speeches because, um, we are here to protest them. We're not gonna let them have that voice. So, um, the Marshall team will communicate any extra plans beyond that. So, um, yeah, just listen to people in the orange vests. Um, they know what they're doing. They're here to look out for you. Um, and listen for any announcements coming over the speaker in the event that, um, anything goes south, which hopefully it won't [00:15:00] because we're all gonna look after each other and have fun. Cool. So next we're gonna lead into some speeches. We're gonna have some music and some chants. Um, and Tris, I think is giving the first speech. Um, so they're gonna get up right after me. Um, thank you for all your time for listening to me. I know I ramble a little bit. Um, and thank you for the love you've brought here today. Um, for the trans community. For the queer community, um, and continue to share that throughout the day. Thank you very much.[00:15:30] My name is Tristan Cordelia from Queer Endurance Defiance. Welcome again to another Rally Against Transphobia, our third in as many months, we know it's pretty tiring to keep turning up like this, but we don't think hatreds can be left unopposed. The good news is queer endurance defiance are not just reactive. We are proactive, and we will be meeting here at 2:00 PM on the [00:16:00] 1st of July to commemorate Stonewall and to promote our demands for better transgender healthcare in Alro. We would love to see you all there. Some more Mixed news is that on the 15th of June, the new BDM RRR Act will come into force. This makes it much easier for people born Indo to update the gender on our birth certificates, which is great. Unfortunately, [00:16:30] the act does not include any provision for people with overseas birth certificates to update, update their gender marker on official documents. So migrants are actually losing this, right? What should have been a step in the right direction and something that we would've celebrated instead makes life easier for some trans people and harder for others, and that is not good enough. The government had assured us that while they weren't retaining this provision in [00:17:00] legislation, the Department of Internal Affairs was going to retain that provision by creating some policy. But as we know from the rollback of Roe versus Wade in America, if it ain't in legislation, don't fucking trust that it'll stay around cuz those rights get taken away. So Queer Endurance Defiance has written an amendment and it's actually like a proper legal docu, you know, legally written document. This isn't just some bullshit that we came up with while we were wasted. Um, to [00:17:30] amend the act, to retain a provision for people born overseas to update the gender markers on official documents. Essentially it just retains the old provision, which isn't great, but it's better than nothing. Um, I have four copies here. Are there any part politicians in the audience. Please take these. I'll just take one more one as well. Please do something with this because we've written it for you. [00:18:00] You just need to put it into, in divorce. That is the news. Um, now on to my actual speech. We're gathered here today in queer solidarity against the anti-trans hate group who are meeting across the lawn in a pathetic attempt to divide cis and trans members of the queer community. Transgender people and trans activists have always played an important role in the movement from, for gay rights, for lesbian rights, for queer rights. From Marsha p Johnson and Sylvia Rivera at [00:18:30] Stonewall, to Connie Norman in the AIDS activism Group act. Up through to the present day, we are sickened that anti-trans groups would attempt to raise this history and gate keep the queer community. I've given some overseas examples. And my comrades will be giving you some a bit of local history. Um, because in New Zealand as well, we've always been part of the movement. We had an incredible Wellington Pride Festival back in March opening with the Pride Koi and Teranga. Most countries who celebrate Pride do so. [00:19:00] Celebrate Pride, do so in summer, and Alro is no different. The turfs across the lawn didn't take part in pride outside a two person transphobic protested out in the city. They don't like that. Pride is inclusive, not exclusive, welcoming, not gatekeeping. So they're using June, which is USA Pride Month to try to gate, keep the tea out of l g LGBTQIA plus and no doubt the I and the A and the Q as well, hell but exclude the LGB if they thought they could get away with it. US [00:19:30] Pride month has recently been internationalized largely because having a global pride is useful for pink wash marketing, selling rainbow sneakers and such. I think Rainbow Sneakers are pretty great, but that's not the point of pride. So it's fine if you're into that sort of thing, rather than a grassroots queer party. In the Sunshine. Queer Endurance Defiance was initially formed in opposition, opposition to the commercialization of pride. Specifically the presence of uniform police and military and pride parades at the behest of corporations and against the wishes of [00:20:00] the queer community. We stand for pride that is by the queer community. For the queer community. Nothing about us, without us is for us. We will not stand silently by while hate groups attempt to dictate why pride can and cannot be. We have pride in all of us, gay, lesbian, bisexual, pansexual, and beyond. Our pride is trans inclusive.[00:20:30] Our pride is intersex inclusive. Our pride is ace inclusive. Our pride is king conclusive. Our pride is sex worker inclusive. Our pride is very inclusive.[00:21:00] Our pride rejects ableism. Our pride rejects racism. Our pride is anti-colonial. Our pride is about love, not hate, love. That is all I have to say today. Thank you all for turning up. I'm going to hand over to our [00:21:30] next speaker, Anne. Thanks gang. Uh, Koto. My name's Anne. I'm an antifascist at tenant organizer and a non-binary cunt, as we call it in the antipathies. I suppose you could call me one of those dreaded transgenders who kind of became non-binary cuz I thought it was cool. Um, and if there's any doubt about that, like you, you're allowed to do that. You don't have to have this kind of innate sense of your agenda [00:22:00] from birth. You can just think. Oh yeah. I kind of like to be a girl and just give it a go. This, this kind of, um, casualness around gender, um, is not something that this side can handle. They hate it. And it's really connected to, uh, the reason that we are here today. And I want to acknowledge the manen of this land, uh, Tati, Tarana, and, um, you know, we're having this protest on parliament and stolen land is the [00:22:30] bedrock of transphobia and alua. I, I, there've been a lot of protests to parliament, a lot have gone to, personally, I don't find it a very interesting protest location cuz it's almost always symbolic and like for what, it's not really an authority that I respect, but to them it's everything. They cannot imagine another way of living on this UA that's not a colonial government. Um, and you know, it's not really that much of a surprise that a lot of the transphobes over there are white. Now, [00:23:00] a few of those I think are people that I used to know, they were friends of mine once, like mostly older white cis women or people trying really hard to be cis women. Um, no, there's a lot of like unchecked dysphoria among that community, but that's not the whole story. Um, you know, and I've thought it over and over again, like trying to puzzle out why these people who I used to know to be nice have become trans folks. I'm sure that's a common experience for many of you. And for a lot of them, they kind of came up [00:23:30] in a type of white feminism that said that, you know, patriarchy is the main oppression, and it's the same across all times in all cultures. And of course, if you know anything about indigenous models of gender, you know that this is not true. Uh, Kiara two, Ani re, Elizabeth Re, um, Kim Reen and all the wah Maori who've challenged those colonial assumptions. And of course their, um, their idea of this gender was like, Very straightforward. You know, the, [00:24:00] the aggressor has a penis, then the victim has a vagina, and then trans politics came along and yeah, on top of this, I think they never really thought that seriously about racism. I don't think they kind of thought of it as like, don't say slurs or hi bar, or, you know, don't overtly oppose migration. And I don't think they'd ever really considered seriously their position as white women and how they have a certain type of power that can be used to hurt indigenous people within other people of color. Then along came trans politics and had [00:24:30] asked them to reframe their ideas of gender and they just could not deal with it. They couldn't deal with the fact that they might have power to give up. Uh, they couldn't deal with the idea that they'd been wrong. And so they kind of abandoned, not just trans people, queer people and the left, but any pretense they ever had to not opposing white supremacy. Like last time people I knew there used to be on the left were shaking hands with the act party. Very weird, surreal kind of thing. Yeah. Boo. Thank you. Uh, when these people talk [00:25:00] about gender, they kind of talk about it in a really similar way to the way that racists talk about the nation. You know, look at these trans women trying to, you know, invade our gender that we own. Look at them trying to replace real cis lesbians and taking away our lesbians by turning them into trans masks. You know, of course they couldn't have a mind of their own. There's a lot of anxiety about fertility in there as well. So is there really any surprise that they've kind of turned to these anti-abortion, antique anti reproductive [00:25:30] rights kind of positions, or aligned with people who align with that? You know, they see gender as they see the FEA as an excluded territory to control with violence. Um, they police the borders of it by barring trans women on the outside and tightly controlling trans masks and the gender of expression of cis women on the inside. Now, I don't want colonizers to control Thea or Akata or any of our bodies. We need to see ourselves not as rulers over these concepts as a thing to [00:26:00] dominate, but as kaki living in relationship and helping each other thrive. Now, I might not always be a non-binary, cuz guess what? You can change genders as many times as you want, but, but I'll always support Ang protecting the FEA and allowing all of us bodily autonomy. I wanted to point out my shirt. It's cast don saying five dozen eggs. That's who I hope to see at every rally [00:26:30] Am I handing it to? Oh right. Thank you Anne. That was amazing. I'm going to hand over to another of my comrades from Q E D. Yes, you usually see me behind the speaker at most of these protests, but now I'm in front of a speaker. I'm just gonna have a little kodo about the, um, [00:27:00] trans history of porn care and the trans history of the Gay and lesbian Liberation Movement. These people are stand standing behind me, are here today because they think trans people ought to be excluded from the queer community. What a ridiculous agenda. What many of these miserable bigots may not seem to know or may not seem to care about. Is that [00:27:30] gay and lesbian people have their rights because of trans people in art. The gay liberation movement of the seventies was built on the labor of all the way back to the 1930s trans people and were the ones hosting balls and parties in the thirties. And they were the ones running the gay cafes and bars where queer and trans [00:28:00] people existed without boundaries, without shame, where queer people connected, organized, and fell in love from Chrissy Weir's, evergreen Coffee House used as an organizing space for gay and lesbian activists leading up to the 1986 homosexual law reform bill. To Carmen Ru's International Coffee House on Vivian Street. We all know queer rights. Trailblazer, Carmen Rupe. [00:28:30] Before the 1969 Stonewall riots in 1966, she was arrested and dragged through the courts in porn because she dared to wear feminine clothing, winning the right to dress. How she pleased that win was not just hers, it was ours. Trans activists like Mama Teddy Strickland toiled to [00:29:00] support the community through the AIDS crisis, which not only affected cisgender gay men, but also the transgender sex workers, some cisgender gay people want to rebuke. We would not have the 2004 Civil Unions Act or gay marriage in 2013. Without the trailblazer, Georgina Byer sex workers, so many of which are from our communities, would not be able to work legally and [00:29:30] safely without her incredible work to decriminalize prostitution in 2003, dressing how we want, marrying who we want, working, where we want our health, our happiness, and our freedom as queer people would not exist without the invaluable activism of fuck wa and trans activists. So [00:30:00] when cisgender gay people stand on the steps of Parliament today, a place where our most fundamental rights were claimed from the cold, hard hands of the establishment and tell us. That we ought to exclude trans people to them. I say shame, shame, shame on you. For once again, throwing trans people to the wolves when you would not be here without them.[00:30:30] I say to the trans exclusionary gaze and that crowd today, if you want to cast off trans people and then mahi, get divorced. Quit your job and dress how the sis establishment commands. We are free. And [00:31:00] because trans people made us free. I would now like to invite Will Koto. Uh, my name is Will, I'm a Pakeha trans man. I'm a student up at Vic, uh, and I'm a trustee of Tera Roa, the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand.[00:31:30] I spent the last six years researching the histories of trans communities and activism in Al Tiera, and I'm here today to tell you that no matter what, the bigots over there say, it was colonization that brought transphobia to this land. And trans people have always been a part of queer communities in roa. More than this. Trans women, and especially trans women who are Maori and Pacifica and trans women who are sex workers have always been our [00:32:00] leaders. They've always been at the forefront of our movements, and it is about bloody time that we stand with them. The last speech. She had some fantastic stories from our histories, and today I'm gonna focus on one more story, the history of my friend Sandy Gauntlet. Sandy is 73 years old, their non-binary, trans-feminine, and activist and academic, a former sex worker and performer who fucka puppets, the Nazi Power and Naati Maru Sandy was one of the first members of the Auckland Gay Liberation Front, when it was founded in [00:32:30] 1972. In 1973, Sandy Single-handedly founded and ran the Rota Gay Liberation Front. In 1974, Sandy joined the first radical trans activist group in Al Tiera, the Transvestites and Transsexuals Union, which was a subgroup of the Christchurch Gay Liberation Front, and was founded by another Transex worker named Pindi. Sandy faced a lot of transphobia from other queer people, but Sandy never let that stop them [00:33:00] from pushing for GA for trans liberation. From making sure that their cisgender comrades knew that the trans struggle was an integral part of the struggle for queer freedom. And they also had support from gay men and lesbians because despite what our mates across the fence would've you believe. There is a history of lesbian feminists who have stood up for trans people and whose support, as Sandy has told me, has often moved them to tears. When I interviewed Sandy last year, they said this to me [00:33:30] cuz I'd worked the streets. I knew what you had to face. You don't give in. Freedom is not given to you. You have to fight for it. People did not believe that we existed until we should stood up and showed them. I think in my own ways, I've helped with some of the change, but I'm not a leader. I'm not. Make sure you say that because I would never have survived without a lot of the people that swam around behind me, with me and in front of me. And as much as I want to honor Sandy's request that I not see them as a leader, [00:34:00] I'm struggling because they are a leader. Sandy was a pioneer of trans activism in New Zealand, and I'm sick of their story being erased. There are so many stories of trans people, transex workers especially, and their allies whose names have not, are not famous, but who have worked hard for decades to build up our strength. And we are so lucky to have some of them here with us today. Chanel and Renee, you guys are amazing and I'm, I'm so we, I'm so grateful we stand on your shoulders.[00:34:30] Transphobia is a part of our history, but it is not our history. Sum total. Our queer histories are more often histories of resistance, of unity and of solidarity as trans and cis comrades alike come together in a shared struggle for liberation from antique oppression. And no matter how hard the turfs try. They will never erase our history. Transphobia is just another tool of ongoing colonization. So land back and transliteration. Now,[00:35:00] I would now like to invite Renee to come and get and give our closing speech. Got it. The first time speaking. Then I'm really nervous and then, but there goes, I'm Renee Paul and I work for New Zealand Prostitutes Collector, oh, sorry. The New Zealand Sex Workers Collective.[00:35:30] I'm just like the next person, you know? I just wanted to be treated the same as others in society with respect, dignity, because in my eyes we're all the same. Um, there's, there's no, um, no space for, um, hatred and, and discrimination. I'm here standing with my UA sisters, you know, and all, all trans women and trans people. The microphone. Yeah. And trans people. So let's be strong and stand together in the face of such [00:36:00] terrible ignorance and dehumanizing, um, attacks on us, our, our being and our dignity. You know, it's been, it's been attacked and we gotta do something about it. Shut up. Um, I work for the, I'm a community liaison for the New Zealand, uh, pro sex workers collective. And, um, [00:36:30] and you know, I just wanna say that, um, there's a war on us today, and it comes not to a theater near you, but to a country near you. As we have experienced. We are old school, we know that hatred all too well, and we've, and, but today it's, it now has a head and it has legs and it's moving very, very quickly. And you know what I say is a war of no one will win a war of hate. You know, there are no [00:37:00] winners. We're only here to reclaim what is ours, our rights, our dignity, and then our, our integrity. And for people that want to take that away, that's not gonna happen. But in the world of technology, hate can spread in two seconds. But we come from an era where there was nothing like that. We just heard about it and we talked to one another. But now, you know, there are people online who want to be part of a group. [00:37:30] They want to be part of something, and whatever it is, they don't care. So they'll join it and then they'll sit back and watch it play itself out. We are the most marginalized, um, most likely to be murdered, um, stigmatized group of people in New Zealand, and yet in New Zealand. And yet in New Zealand it's the Queens, the trans woman that stood up [00:38:00] and raised the visibility of the rainbow community in a time where you had to conform to society standards. But we said, no, we, this is what you see is what you get, and it's now what you see is what you get. And we're pacifists, we're not predators, we're pacifists and we always have been. And those who know us, and the hatred that's steaming right now, you know, against us, the [00:38:30] trans world is burning the children, you know, sports, um, sports competitors. Everything that is in our world is burning. And this is the only way we can help put that fire out is to for young ones to stand beside us because Yeah, cuz yeah, yeah. We need you. We've been there and we know, and we know the hatred and know, and we know what it's like. And those people over there, you know, we all have a platform to speak, you [00:39:00] know, but don't bring your hate because it's not gonna solve anything. It's just gonna make things worse. So I just wanna say, um, to all you young ones, just continue to, to, to, to stand for what is right and for, for what is ours. I'm proud to live in New Zealand in a country where, um, they can look at a transsexual and say, okay, go and give it a go. And who, who? And the trans and the, and the queens that came before her, like Carmen, she ran for me in 1977. She [00:39:30] didn't win, but she laid the pathway for someone else to enter political spaces. And now our parliament is, has a rainbow room. And what can, where can you say that in any other country? And I love New Zealand, I love everybody in New Zealand, all races, you know, because we are one people. And that's, and that's how it should be. And don't let anybody come over here. And because if you're gonna come to New Zealand for a battle, don't expect hugs and kisses. We'll listen, but you're not gonna get a hug and a kiss. [00:40:00] So not eight 10, no. That was amazing. Thank you so much for showing up. Um, a little known fact about transphobia in New Zealand is that the hate group standing over there, S U f W. They have [00:40:30] their roots in anti-sex work. The reason they formed in the first place was because they couldn't stand the fact that trans women were prominently involved in the campaign for sex workers rights. Our struggle is a struggle for bodily autonomy, the struggle for access to abortions, for workplace rights, for sex workers. And [00:41:00] with the rights of trans people to be ourselves and receive the healthcare we need. This fight is one fight and we stand together in solidarity. I wanna shout out to everyone who has worked on Marion Street when I was at a low end and looking for money and figured that was my only option. You welcomed me [00:41:30] with open arms and made sure that I was safe, and all of that shit was way too hard for me to keep going. You've done it and on the side you've fought for the rights of everyone. Those who are treated like the lowest, welcome everyone and fight for the rights of people who often have it much easier than they are. Their mahi, their roha. It's been an inspiration to all of us.[00:42:00] Sorry, I just getting a little bit high on my motions here. Those are all the speeches that we have planned today. Um, but we do have some time to welcome people who would like to take part. Um, if you would like to say some words, we'd invite you up to the [00:42:30] microphone, um, to give you a couple of minutes to say something about your own experiences, whether that's as a trans person, as a queer person, spin even as an ally. Um, please try not to speak for more than two minutes. I'll give you a ding at two minutes and another at three. Um, try not to use any slurs other than queer, which has been reappropriated to the point that we can use it. Um, I like to use trans slurs to describe myself cuz I just fuck like that, but not everyone does and it can [00:43:00] be quite triggering for some people. Um, obviously TURP is not actually a slur, so that's fine. Um, so yeah, and try to keep it positive. Um, we've had a lot of dark experiences and obviously that's part of your journey and I welcome you to mention that. Um, just try not to go into too much detail because, um, that can also be triggering for people. Um, so I would like to invite people from the crowd if you would really like to say something, um, [00:43:30] just to put up your hands. Um, yes. You say first, um, and come Yes. And then you. Transphobes love to say that we are spreading ideologically to convert people into transgenderism. All we are saying is that you have a chance, you are loved, you can [00:44:00] transition. And you know, if it wasn't for getting on testosterone and to see have people see me the way that I want to be seen and gendered correctly, I probably would have killed myself. That's the truth. But I have the opportunity because of what I've been able to be given to live how I want to. So yeah, that's just what I wanted to say.[00:44:30] Uh, hi. I'm a transparent. Woo. It's a privilege. Um, I cry when I hear people say I cry when I hear people say that my children would abuse children. My daughter and her [00:45:00] wife have just given birth to a miracle baby. My children will never abuse a child. Get real. I might even know some of you over there. And I fucking love you and I love all of you too. And I'm gonna die cause I can't breathe properly. Um, but the, the fear I have lived with. [00:45:30] The love I have found many of you, I know your faces in here because of my beautiful children. And honestly, let's just love each other. I always hope that by my attitude, my friends can be changed. And you know what? A lot of them can't. And it's just so sad. It's so sad cuz I love you all so much and you know, whatever. Yeah, gimme a cheer.[00:46:00] It's important to know as much as they may hate us, we do not hate you. We would love you to rejoin the feminist community and the queer community. It's not too late to change. Forgiveness is an important part of the social movement.[00:46:30] Uh, my name's Ezra. They them. I just wanna start by, um, reminding the people over there, their roots, where we came from, where women's liberation came from in the Western world. I'm not sure exactly the year I've got a bad memory, but Simon de Bvo once said, one is not born as but rather becomes a woman. And that was the fine, was the founding points of the second wave of the feminist [00:47:00] movement, the one that gave us all we have today, the idea that one is not born as the gender, that they are given the idea that our pressure is not biologically determined. The idea that the roles that we live in are not fatalistic. The idea is that we can take our oppression and change it with social action. Those with the founding principles of not only our movement, but the feminist movement as a whole. And I would like [00:47:30] to ask, I would like to ask the people over on the other side of that fence there, what made them betray that principle? What made them reaffirm that our fates are biologically determined? That we are only our dna, that we are only our parts. That we are only our oppression? Are we not our genders, but are we people? And how dare they forget that? How [00:48:00] dare they portray the movement? How dare they portray Martha B. Johnson or Marsha b Johnson. I can't remember. After the AIDS crisis has wiped, wiped out so much of our history. All of the trans activists, man who tried to fight for us, who gave us our rights, who gave us our freedom, what now, after all we have sacrificed to preserve that history, makes them wish to erase it.[00:48:30] I don't know, honestly, they're just picks. Thank you, Kiara. My name is Leash. Um, and I'd just like to say as someone who was raised in this bigotry, that these people are espousing. I was raised in the church. Um, I know some, I feel like I know somewhat what they went through. I was a homophobic, [00:49:00] transphobic asshole for a hot minute. Um, I am now gay and trans, so, you know, but I remember first hearing about. Transgender people, and it was new and it was scary. And I as a, as a, you know, budding feminist, I felt like it threatened me. And I don't know where our paths differ because all it took for me was to hear, listen to [00:49:30] trans people and listen to their stories, and listen to their pain, and realize that compassion is the only response when, when approaching people, especially people who are at higher risk of, of death, of homelessness, of abuse from authority figures. I and I, I, that is where our paths diverge because I do not understand the response to hearing people like we've heard today. To turn, [00:50:00] turn, I don't, I do not understand turning your back on that. But even though I do not understand them, I speak for myself and I hope I speak for some of you, uh, you know, most of you. But if they had that radical realization that I had as a teenager, that com, that they had been lacking compassion. If they turned around with compassion and started listening to us and joined us, I would welcome them with open arms. Yes,[00:50:30] I am not. I am angry, but I'm mostly sad that people who could be fighting with us are fighting against us. Yes. These are people who should be our elders and they're attacking children. Yes. We are not the threat to children. They are threatening my comrades, and that is unconscionable. So I am very angry, but I'm [00:51:00] also saddened and I'm also hopeful that some people will join us if we continue to share our stories and continue to. Let our pain be heard and continue to not be silent in the face of very violent oppression. Maybe, maybe they will be moved in compassion, but regardless of that, we are here, we are [00:51:30] queer, and we will not be silenced. Thank you Kiara. Beloved shenanigans. I wrote this last night. I was trying to go to bed to be wakeful enough for this, uh, but I had to get something outta my heart. So here it is. Transgender people are not rising out of nowhere. Our existence is putting an end to the gender [00:52:00] apartheid. Our existence is ending the artificial simplification of gender. And of human nature brought about by Puritanism and it's colonial exports, we are ending this anti natural madness that sought comfort in the suppression of the complex and diverse [00:52:30] nature of human beings in front of us. Simple people who find comfort in artificial simplicity and her respond violently to the end of any, because they were told that in this world there are humans and deadly monsters. The humans they believed are those who are white, cisgender, heterosexual, [00:53:00] idly males, abled, abstinent until marriage. And when married. And when married permitted to sin only to have children. They were told the rest, they told themselves are incarnations of the devil. Monsters. Beasts. They told themselves not to mistake or mingle with humans. Oh well the books have gone outta fashion. The anti natural tales of monsters, not quite [00:53:30] inured in this delusional simplicity. They now feel attacked and threatened by the mere visible existence of and the unstoppable reclamation of the right to live by and for the people the lives. The natural diversity that they had so rightfully and so violently suppressed, and they today invoke biology, lesbians invoking [00:54:00] biology against us. The irony. The irony. Here's the facts of biology. You can cut every tree and every relief you can monocrop and call the rest weeds. One thing I know is the trend dies quickly, but after 2000 years and more, you can put boxes instead of leaves and trees. Nature always comes back. [00:54:30] All I'm saying, all I'm saying is we're back bitches and we are here to stay. Hi, um, my name is Rosie. My pronouns are they, they slash he. And I just wanted to tell you guys what happened last year because he's, because we are continued to be [00:55:00] attacked. Last year I was at, at a pride event at out in the pool and two, and my trans fem friends got attacked by, by bigots and turfs just like them. They, and they yelled at me and told me to get them into the, into the boys changing room. Why? And, and that made me think, why can't we just let trans, trans women live as trans [00:55:30] women? I, I'll continue to fight for my trans, do my trans friends. And I'm also trans, but my trans woman friends are the account most under attack by the turfs over on the lawn over there. They, without my trans friends, without the trans community, I honestly [00:56:00] pro and so would, many of my other friends probably would not be here. So I just wanted to, wanted to say that there is no, without trans people, there is no pride and there are no rights. So, yeah. Okay. I think yourself. Sweet. So, um, I'll do you and, and yourself, um, and then I think we are going to do some [00:56:30] singing. Um, I'll check the time and hopefully we can fit a few more people in. Uh, uh Hello, hello, hello. Um, my name's Amanda SheHer and I'd like to give a shout out to everyone who couldn't make it here today. Uh, three of my friends in particular who had worked today, which were Willow, violet and Asami slash Reese slash Rowan, and also to anyone who wouldn't be able to [00:57:00] make it here because of work or prior commitments, or they're just simply not out yet or not comfortable with large crowds. You're all loved, and thank you for being here in spirit. Also, shout out to me because I look amazing today. Thank you. Thank you so much. Welcome. Hello. Um, I'm Vic. [00:57:30] Um, she, they, um, fuck. I knew what I was gonna say like five seconds ago. I was very, I was raised in what could very charitable charitably be called a shit childhood where I was raised in a very, very close-minded town in the middle of fucking rural [00:58:00] Canterbury. Um, and even then, when I was at my lowest, when I was at my worst, when I didn't think I'd live past 18, it was the queer community that was there for me long before I figured myself out. And yeah, without the community, I wouldn't be here. And. Yeah, it's love that wins, not. Hey,[00:58:30] thank you so much. Okay. Um, we're gonna have two more speakers, um, Elizabeth and then yourself. I've got this job I've got to go to though I'm not, I haven't got it for long. Uh, but the while we are here, we'll just keep working hard for all of our communities. I wanted to bring another Coya into the space, and that is Jennifer Edwards, and she was a mentor to me, to me. [00:59:00] And, uh, she, you'll find her in Pui books. And the story about her life is just incredible. But I wanted to share two things about her, uh, which I hope just makes, helps make more things real. Uh, when we talk about the guidance of our Fai from the past, it's not just them, it's all our ancestors who remind us of who we are, where we come from, and our right to be on this land. And when she was born, [00:59:30] Her grandmother immediately knew she was different, and Jennifer's grandmother was known for, she could pick the gender of any child who was born in their whanau. And so as soon as her daughter got pregnant, she goes, this one's mine. Now. Jennifer was born assigned male at birth. She was raised as a girl from birth by her grandmother and her godmother because they could feel her way to her. And so she knew who she was. She always said, I'm not trans. I never [01:00:00] transitioned. I've always been a girl. I've always been a woman. And so when we get back to those basic, basic values, our ua, that thing inside us, our spiritual connection to all things in the universe, when we. Are able to express our moori that says, this is who we are in the world. We will be valued, recognize you, will be valued, recognized for who you are. Our, our [01:00:30] manna, the manna that says, actually, you know what, we were here long before the colonizers came and will be here long after they go. So I want to shout out, I, I want to do a shout out to Gina who's here. She's standing for the greens in, uh, in mana. Uh, because we need candidates who are trans, non-binary and intersex to make sure we get trans non-binary intersex people into this house. And I look forward to helping make that [01:01:00] happen. Hilda. Thank you so much. Um, welcome. Um, hello. Uh, my name is Luke. My pronouns are he, him. And I'm guessing that literally no one in this crowd knows me because I only arrived to the city four days ago, I think, and to this country around four months ago. So I'm very new here, but that's why I wanted to speak a little because I [01:01:30] really think, while it's great to protest the thoughts of the other group and be loud to make points, I also, I also think it's important to focus on the good parts. So I really wanted to thank everyone for showing up for the community and for everyone organizing this because in my home country we, we don't really have that a lot to be honest. So you make everyone feel so welcome here immediately, and it just feels so good to be part of this community with you guys. So just keep in mind, even [01:02:00] if sometimes the fight feels like it's a losing fight or like nothing changes people from around the world see you and see what you're doing for the community. So thank you very much Kia. Um, big thank you for everyone who's got up here and spoken today. Uh, this is, it's absolutely terrifying standing in front of a lot of people. Um, I've done it like a million times and it still scares the shit outta me. Um, I'd like to do some singing together, um, if you're all [01:02:30] keen. Um, so despite being a musician, I'm kind of not a very good singer. Um, I'm happy to lead, but I would like someone if there is someone, um, who knows the words to Raha, who has a strong voice, um, and can actually hold a tune. I can. Yes. Oh, thanks. Um, okay, let's here. That's roughly not.[01:03:00] [01:03:30] Shout up to who was doing the Cool Harmony. Alright, what else we got? I actually, I actually wrote a little like song to kind of troll them with, if you wanna do the tune of. Hey, a little trolling is a treat. Um, all right. So, um, after me, boring transphobes. Boring [01:04:00] Transphobes, go away. Go away. You align with Nazis. You align with Nazis. Shame, shame, shame, shame, shame, shame. Boring phos. Boring phos. Go away. Go away. You align with Nazis. You aligned with Nazis. Shame, shame, shame, shame, shame, shame, shame. All right, I'm dividing up the cart. We're gonna do a round. What the hell? All right, everyone on that side. You're going first. Everyone on [01:04:30] that side though, you going in the rest of you. I don't know how to divide yourselves up as you like. All right. It's the first time we're gonna be binary here, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So don't believe in the binary, but have you gotta be trans group? You can, yeah. Yeah. There are only two harmony parts. All right. Um. Sarah. Boring transcribes. Boring phos. Go over phos boring. Transform[01:05:00] Nazis ring.[01:05:30] Yeah. There's a lot you can do with like little tunes like that. Don't, don't give up the classics. All right. What else do we got on here? Wanna keep the energy up? Let's do all right.[01:06:00] Right [01:06:30] trans, right human, right. Trans rights. Human right. Trans rights. Human right. Trans rights. Human rights. Trans rights. Human right. Trans rights. Human right. Trans rights. Human right. Trans rights. Human rights. Trans rights are human rights. I say Go home Transcribes. You say Go home. Transcribes. Go home. Transphobes. Go home. Trans. Go home. Trans. Go home. Trans. [01:07:00] Go home. Trans. Go home. Trans. Go home. Go home. Trans folks go home. Trans folks go home. Trans folks go home. Trans folks go home. Trans folks. Trans The human right. Trans The human right. Right. Trans right. Right. The right trans, right rights.[01:07:30] Okay, so could you both, um, introduce yourselves, um, and tell me what's happening around us? Well, we are a transgender couple who live in Wellington, and we are here at the protest and they're playing tub thumping really loud, and everyone's dancing and waving their flags and it's awesome. All of our friends are here and we are here to stand up for our sisters and our brothers and stand up against stinky turfs who don't know what they're talking about and [01:08:00] haven't bothered to listen to anybody. Yes. Can you tell me what's on your signs? Mine says, let trans Woman speak, and it says that because this is the sign we made when Posy Parker came. With her, let woman speak to her. And I thought it was more important to let trans women speak because as I said, they clearly have never listened to a trans woman. And most people, once they do, they start to understand what we're saying and what we are here for. And mine says here forever. And there's a big butterfly on it because [01:08:30] we have always been here and we are always going to be. And there's nothing you can do about it. Transness is natural. Yes, it's very natural. Just like butterflies. Yeah. Awesome. And can you describe for me the kind of mood that's, uh, around at the moment? I think it's a good mood. Yeah. I feel like generally when we gather, even though it's against hateful stuff, it's usually joyful because as I said, all our friends are here and we are here, enjoy to be with our community and, and to fight together. Yes. And know that we are bigger than them. [01:09:00] Yes. I got a little bit teared off at everyone's beautiful speeches, but in a good way just because I, it's so lovely to hear everybody talk about how much they love and support each other, and I feel the same way too. Okay. So I'm Shawnee and I met the trans rights, I'd call it trans safety, uh, rally at Parliament. Uh, Over behind me, uh, is a group where possibly I have some, uh, people of my acquaintance in there, um, and I'm just here [01:09:30] to, and, and they're like anti-trans, anti recognizing these beautiful people as just people. And so I'm here, um, I have three trans kids myself. Um, possibly could have been trans if I've been young, who knows. Uh, and I'm just here because it should be about love and, and paying attention to being compassionate and kind to each other. And, uh, let's just do that. So I'm here to support and even if I have to come in a wheelchair, I'll be here next time. [01:10:00] Good day. I'm, I'm Beaks and I'm, I'm here like, like she said, at the, at the trans rally. Um, and I'm, I'm pretty much just here to, you know, just, just to sort of help out. Be, be available, be an ally. I'm a, I'm a cisgender man. And, and nothing, nothing's stopping you from being an ally? I think so. I'm, I'm here to, to bolster the crowds and spread positive vibes and, and just sort of be, be a dude here that supports people. Um, and can you describe for me what's going on around us at the moment? Well, we've, uh, we've [01:10:30] finished off most of our, uh, most of our speeches and most of our chanting and everything. So everyone's just sort of devolved into an absolute mosh of, uh, of, of positivity and, and good vibes. We're just sort of listening to music and dancing around and just, just having fun with it. Uh, would you be able to read for me what some of the signs around here say, oh, I can try. Um, so, uh, we've got trans pride equals, uh, no, uh, sorry. No trans equals no pride. Uh, we've got puberty blockers, save lives. Transphobia is cringe. [01:11:00] Say no to hate, say No to bigots. We've, we've got some good ones. Uh, we've got, uh, uh, sexes and then the, the sort of female sign, the male sign and the intersex sign, genders and the, the public bathroom signs. It says, let people be people. Um, I, I saw, I saw one somewhere. Uh, I can't see it, but I, I, I saw, saw one somewhere that said, um, what was it? Some, something along the lines of um, was that gen trans pride is good or, so [01:11:30] a lot of things like that. It's just, just sort of putting, putting on, on cardboard what, what people think here really. Um, my name's Ren Atlas. I'm a student at Victoria University. I'm originally from the States, but I moved to New Zealand about five years ago now, and I've been really happy here. So, Um, I identify as non-binary and tentatively lesbian for now. And can you tell me, um, about this event today? What has [01:12:00] brought you out here? So there have been a series of, and high trans protests and counter protests, and I just, I really want the momentum to stay up because I know how it can get when there's just one thing after another and slowly over time it kind of, the novelty wears off and it just ends up being the sheer, like, like we pretend that we're really happy here, but it actually is quite difficult to stand here in front of people [01:12:30] who hate us, you know? And so I just, I don't want it to become something that like tapers off over time so that it looks like it was just one defense, one party. When it's really so much more than that. And so I, I wanted to come today to, because I came to the last ones because I don't wanna let that energy go. Um, I have been really impressed by the [01:13:00] level of intersectionality that's been on display. Like I think it can be something that as a queer community, we sometimes feel like we're just paying lip service to. I've definitely in the past, like you can show up to a queer event and it's all white people, or you, you show up and there's no trans feminine people or you, you show up and people will acknow do a land acknowledgement, but they don't actually mean it. Like, and I think that's been so different with [01:13:30] this series of counter protests that I've really appreciated is seeing the whole range of our community, how everyone is willing to show up for each other. That and the, um, connection that we have. I think the, I mean, I'm not sure exactly how formal it is, but the connection between these organizers and the organizers for the 19 fired up stilettos has like, it, it feels really important because I think the only way that we're actually going to get things done is working [01:14:00] together. And so I think that this kind of public show of support for each other is a really good sign that things aren't gonna go backwards. Um, my name's Zia, my pronouns are he, they, and I'm here because I really love being trans and it's something I care a lot about and I think it's kind of sad when turfs don't see that. And so, um, you've got a fantastic sign with you. Can you please tell me what it says and, um, why you decided to make this particular sign? Uh, my sign says the world needs, [01:14:30] needs transsexuals more than God. Um, this is inspired by quotes from the Trans F Artist, girl of Swords. So please check her out. Um, this message really resonated with me because I grew up in a very small Christian town and I was maybe one of like three queer people at my high school. So being part of a queer community in a trans community as opposed to like a church is something that has meant a lot to me. And I feel like the world would be, would be a better place if we had, um, more trans people than Christians. [01:15:00] And um, can you tell me, uh, how you felt when you were, uh, listening to the speech speeches going on today? I thought they were all very beautiful. I was a little bit emotional at several of them, especially the ones talking about like Carmen Dedupe and Georgina Beer because the trans history of New Zealand is just so rich and so important. Awesome. Um, and can you, um, what would you like to say to the rainbow people that were speaking as a part of the anti-trans rally across the fence? Uh, you not like a little bit embarrassed. Like you should be a [01:15:30] little bit embarrassed. Trans people fought for your rights. Every single pride movement has begun with trans people. You're just, you're turning your back on your own community. And it's really sad because like we want you to be a part of us. Like we want you to be with us as well. We don't have to draw the line like this. Kiara, I'm Juliet and I am a young Maori trans woman and I have come out here today to, um, be here for all of my sisters, my brothers, my siblings, [01:16:00] and for myself because I know that this is, um, here for me, this has been, these spaces, um, have been made for me but also may have it. And I need to be able to provide those spaces for myself. So I am here to be able to, um, yeah, represent young Maori trans woman. Fantastic. And, um, you've got a brilliant sign with you. Could you please tell me what it says and why you decided to make this sign? Well, my, um, science [01:16:30] is Chick with a Brick, which, you know, is a pretty funny little, um, funny little play on words. Um, I think this, this post is actually just so important to me because, um, I have used the term chick with a dick as a way of being able to reclaim like, um, slurs that have been used against trans women. It's something that I've always, you know, liked to use with my other trans friends cuz it's a Recla word. Um, and I think that I wanted to be able to like, include the [01:17:00] word brick because it's honoring, um, ma Marsh p Johnson, who f uh, threw the first brick at Stonewall. Um, and I thought it was just, yeah, a fun little play of words, but also like, um, yeah, a great way to represent, you know, um, trans people. Like we're humorous, we're funny. It's not all about, you know, seriousness. Um, so yeah. That's awesome. Um, and can you explain for me, uh, what your feelings were like as you were listening to the speeches and, and t chanting away as part of this group? Honestly, I [01:17:30] was so, um, empowered, but also just felt so, um, you know, worrisome as I looked over that other group of, um, turf and anti, um, trans, um, group across from the field, um, they, a lot of their posters, um, were, you know, very invalidating towards our trans experience. And to me it's just like, can you just let us exist in the way that we want to be able to exist? [01:18:00] We aren't like doing anything. We aren't trying to, you know, um, attack anybody's lifestyles or like, we are just who we are. We've always existed in this way and we need to be able to have the freedom to be able to do that. Um, yeah. Awesome. Um, and can you, uh, explain to me what's going on around us, uh, right now? Cool. Well, this is just like the aftermath of the, um, protest. We have lots of just really cool [01:18:30] conversations between other trans people and other queer and non-binary people. Um, and the vibes are just all love and just gorgeous. Beautiful. I love to yeah, be able to like, just stand here with all of my brothers and sisters and siblings and, you know, be able to have these like, really important conversations and like, grow our strength in lovers together. And now we're all walking home together because this is, this is the safest, yeah. Safest way to be able to leave events like this when there [01:19:00] are turfs and transphobic people who are trying to, you know, demean our experience and our lives. So, yeah. Um, hello again. We're gonna wrap up now. I think, um, they've packed down their PAs and their signs, so. I think now is a good time for us to disperse as well before our numbers dwindle a bit lower. Just remember there's strength in numbers, so make sure you go home with someone else today. Um, or at least stick together until you're on public transport or something far [01:19:30] away. Um, from here, keep yourselves safe, keep each other safe, and have a good rest of your day. Uh, remember to leave in groups, see everyone. Um, and as you're leaving, we're gonna have a closing, Kara here, um, just to sign off our event formally. Um, I would like to apologize that I forgot the opening one, uh, in my speech. Um, so, uh, in to show my respect, we're gonna have a closing one instead. Um, and TKI who is currently over there not paying attention was going to do it. Tki. [01:20:00] No worries about that Al. Thank you all for summing it out. Have a good rest of your day. Everyone. Stay safe.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093098
TITLE: Out in the City (2023)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Annie Jones; Calum Bennachie; Clara Breitenmoser; Emma Wollum; Gina Dao-McLay; Jennifer Randle; Jess Sandoval; Kevin Haunui; Meghan McNeil; Mike Fairhurst; Mx. Well; Richard Tankersley; Savana Steel; Slay West; Terry Fenn; Tīwhanawhana; Vee Blackwood
INTERVIEWER: Regis Perez
TAGS: ABI Rehabilitation Services; Annie Jones; Aotearoa New Zealand; Burnett Foundation Aotearoa; Calum Bennachie; Clara Breitenmoser; Emma Wollum; Endo Warriors Aotearoa; Endometriosis; Gina Dao-McLay; Human Rights Commission; Intersex Trust Aotearoa New Zealand (ITANZ); Jennifer Randle; Jess Sandoval; Kevin Haunui; Local Queers (zine); MPI Primary Pride Network; MPox; Meghan McNeil; Mike Fairhurst; Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI); Mx. Well; NZAF Ā whina Centre; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; PRISM: Human Rights issues relating to Sexual Orientation; Gender Identity and Expression; and Sex Characteristics (SOGIESC) in Aotearoa New Zealand (2020); Pride in Medicine; Rainbow Wellington; Regis Perez; Richard Tankersley; Savana Steel; Slay West; Terry Fenn; The Glamaphones; The Pōneke Promise (Wellington City Council); Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); Tīwhanawhana; Vee Blackwood; Wellington; Wellington City Council; Wellington Sexual Health Service; Zeal (Wellington); dignity; gender affirming voice; hate speech; intersex; lesbian; non-binary; period; period poverty; queer; respect; sex work; sexual health; takatāpui; trans; transgender; zines
DATE: 18 March 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Michael Fowler Centre, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Interviews with people at Out in the City, which was held on 18 March 2023 at the Michael Fowler Centre, Wellington. Founded in 1986, and originally called the Lesbian and Gay Fair, 2023 marked the 37th anniversary of the event.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: October 2023
TEXT: So just, um, just to let you know what's gonna happen, um, our this morning are going to be in the form of songs. So we're just gonna do, uh, three items, uh, first and action song next to poi. And the last, uh, a song which encompasses a, a ang, uh, it doesn't actually include a Ang, but it's about q. So, kia ora tātou. Thank you. [00:00:30] [00:01:00] [00:01:30] [00:02:00] [00:02:30] Some. [00:03:00] [00:03:30] [00:04:00] [00:04:30] Woo. [00:05:00] [00:05:30] [00:06:00] [00:06:30] [00:07:00] mauri ora, haumi e, hui e, tauri e. Happy Pride, everyone! Today is the 18th of March and I am here with... Georgia. And L. A. C. E. A. What brings [00:07:30] you two out here today? Yeah, so, um, we work for ZEAL, which is a youth center, and we run one of the only queer youth spaces in Wellington, so we're just here to kind of spread what we do and, um, let people know about our space. I've been working with Zeal for the last year and a bit. Year and a half, I want to say. Yeah. Yeah, um, I've been working here for around nine months, and we just started running this rainbow group probably also around nine [00:08:00] months ago. Yeah. What was the sort of motivation behind starting the rainbow group? Um, we, we just like know that a lot of kids have really just needed this time. space and um, we just felt like there weren't really a lot of queer spaces that youth could just hang out and exist, so that's kind of the motivation behind it, yeah. What's the atmosphere when you have these sort of like queer group spaces? Um, [00:08:30] Yeah, it's very much just like, come as you are, like, come maybe even if you're not feeling the best and just, um, kids are allowed to just exist in the space, um, we have youth workers around who can help, like, connect them to other resources, but we also just do things like crafts and games, um. Yeah, just giving them a space to be who they are and connect with other young people as well. Would you want to describe a little bit about what you've got [00:09:00] on your table? Yeah, so we've got some pamphlets which kind of outline what Rainbow Hangs is. We've also got, um, Um, some of the other offerings that we have, like some of the programs that we run. Um, we have a message board where people can write messages to the younger staff, or maybe to young, or when they were younger for our young people to read, kind of, of like inspiration. And then we've got some games, [00:09:30] and um, a canvas to do some drawing and writing on, and there's lollies. Yeah, that's it, eh? That's what we've got. Why is it important for Zeal to be here today? Um, well, one is like, we just really want everyone to know that our organization is really, like, involved and cares about these issues, so that youth feel more comfortable in our space. Um, we also know there's a huge demand for Rainbow Youth spaces, and not everyone necessarily [00:10:00] knows we exist. So just kind of, yeah. Kia ora, my name is Callum Bennehy. Uh, what brings you here today? Right, we are from NZTC, the Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers Collective. And, um, we've come to Auckland City to, uh, provide information to people who may be thinking of being sex workers or who know people who are. Maybe thinking of being sex workers so that we can pass that information on to help make sure that they're safe in the workplace. How did you first get involved in doing [00:10:30] this? Um, I've been involved in, um, NZPC since 1999. Um, when I was doing my, uh, honours papers I had to do a... Internship, and I've stayed with NZPC basically since then. Um, all the way through doing my PhD and everything as well, so, yeah. Could you describe a little bit of what you have on your table? Okay, we have, um, some examples of the loops that we carry from, um, the standard size through the family value, extra family value, and super [00:11:00] extra family value. Um, we've got a new workers kit here that's got, um, samples of the condoms that we provide. And in the grey bag inside there, there's, um, sponges, uh, dams, um, a tube of lube, and um, small condoms and large condoms. Um, we've got a sample of the leaflets and things that we hand out, um, from this one here, what to do, which is talking about [00:11:30] issues of sexual assault in the workplace. place and, um, how that can be addressed either by going to the police or going through sexual health, so on like that. So that people can feel safe in doing so. Um, we're very lucky that here in Wellington at least we have very good, uh, police liaison person. But we also have, um, information for people who are Sugar Babes, um, who are, uh, dancing in the clubs, um, who are, [00:12:00] uh, camming, and doing, um, online sex work, and, uh, of course, techs, and things, so, yeah. Um, there's also a guy over here at the moment from, uh, the UK, from Scotland, who is doing some research, and, um, I was working for Kingston University for, uh, Three years, um, doing research into migrant sex workers here in New Zealand. Um, so, we're very big on helping research [00:12:30] because we know that that helps strengthen the situation that sex workers are in. Because it can show where, uh, what things need to be addressed. So, um, we've also got dams, and of course sponges, and the internal condoms. Why is it important for you and your sort of organization, I guess, to be here today? Um, a lot of the people that we see, um, uh, part of the rainbow community and things. Um, they may be [00:13:00] women working with male clients, but they, um, do have, um, the primary attraction maybe with other women. And of course we do have, uh, the majority of, um, male sex workers, uh, Predominantly gay, although there are some gay for pay things, but they still need the same information to help keep them safe. And, um, we also have a lot of transgender sex workers as well. And so, we make sure that everybody is safe. Today I am here with... Dr. Jean Randall. [00:13:30] So what brings you here today? Um, so I'm here today, um, doing, um, consults for, um, Mpox, um, vaccination. Um, so, this is part of the rollout of the Mpox, um, vaccine. Um, and basically, it's opportunity for people who are potentially interested in being vaccinated or think they might be at risk of getting Mpox, um, to speak to a doctor and find out if the vaccination might be the right thing for them. How did you first get involved in doing this? Um, so, uh, as a doctor I work in [00:14:00] public health, um, so vaccination is a bit of bread and butter for us, um, and also as a queer doctor, I'm really keen to make sure that our community is vaccinated for mpox to make sure that they stay safe and healthy. Yeah. What's it like being a queer doctor? Um, I don't know, pretty good, um, I, um, I am very passionate about, um, making sure that, uh, queer community is well looked after within medicine. I know there's a lot of challenges for, um, all the parts of our community, um, to access healthcare and to get the quality [00:14:30] of healthcare that they need. Um, and so, I, um, not only... Um, I do that kind of advocacy in my work space, so I'm working in the National Public Health Service, um, in the Capital Coast. Um, but also, um, and uh, I'm a member of a group called Pride in Medicine, which is a pretty newly formed group of queer and allied doctors across Australia and New Zealand, who are doing advocacy in that space too. Why is it important for you and your sort of organization to be here today? Um, I think that, um, public health is about making [00:15:00] sure that we can protect people's health and it means everyone. Um, and the rainbow community is, you know, part of our community, um, and when, uh, parts of our community are facing, um, the high risks of disease, it's really important that we step up and do what we need to do to, um, protect everyone. How many of there are you here today? So there are three doctors here and there are four nurses here. Um, doing our vaccination consults. Awesome. Uh, B. Uh, what brings you out here today? [00:15:30] Uh, so I work with the Cuba Street Clinic. Um, and we're doing three site testing today at Pride. Awesome. How'd you first get involved into doing this? Um, I'm part of the community myself and finally getting to do mahi in adjacent work for the community. Why is it important for your sort of organisation to be here today? Um, I think that... That the medical sphere has [00:16:00] long not been useful to our people, and that it's really cool to show that we are trying and that we have a place and that we're being represented by our own people within the medical sphere, um, yeah, yeah. And that we need to work together, and yeah. How would you say is the best way to progress, um, with the queer community for medical Um, treatments and stuff like that. Um, definitely education of clinicians. Um, [00:16:30] that's such a complex question. I think having more queer people working in the medical sector so that we have, um, informed lived experience. experience within the medical sector, and then, yeah, just our colleagues have such a great intention to do the best by our people, but they don't necessarily know how to do that. So just being able to take the community's advice and also have people within, yeah. Duncan, so what are you doing here today? Um, we're just selling our [00:17:00] badges, t shirts, and um, flags to celebrate Pride Month. Yeah? Yeah. When did you get involved in doing all of this? Um, I was sort of roped in. I'm actually a school teacher, so I usually work with young people. But I was in the area and my friend said, hey, could you set up a stall? And I was like, yep, definitely. I'm very supportive of the Coal Popper and I want to be part of it. Could you tell us what you have on the table in front of you? Yeah, cool. So we've got some sort of, um, t shirts that, uh, that celebrate, um, different parts of the Pride community and take off various pop culture themes. [00:17:30] So we've got Star Wars lightsabers, we've got a... Um, non binary t shirt in the style of a Nirvana t shirt, homosexual tendencies in the style of, um, you know, shirts. So lots of different shirts. We have beanies, sorry, um, bucket hats, and obviously the flags. Hand flags and large flags. So everything people would want to, you know, celebrate, um, the, this month, and they put, um, yeah. Who's the creative director behind these t shirts in front of me? Uh, a lot of inspiration comes from offshore. We get a lot of our [00:18:00] designs directly from the states. So, they are manufactured here, but yeah, we, uh, we source our ideas and our designs from, you know, from progressive cultures like in San Francisco and stuff. Uh, why is it important for you to be here selling what you are selling? So obviously, you know, it's part of a job, and we're sort of doing it for the financial reasons, but and more than that, it is actually giving people a chance to display their identity and to celebrate who they are, and I'm a schoolteacher, so I want to make sure that the rangatahi, the young people, um, can have access to things [00:18:30] that represent their culture, versus just, you know, standard stuff you might get from Glasson's or the warehouse, which doesn't actually reflect who their identity is. Kia ora, today is the 18th of March, and I am here with She's from Indo Warriors Aotearoa. So what brings you here today? So we're a charity organisation that work with people that have endometriosis. So we support them in different ways, teaching them how to advocate, supplying some packs when they have surgery, and we go into workplaces and talk to managers and staff on how they can support their, um, co workers and employees a lot better. And we do [00:19:00] education in schools. And we also do work towards period poverty. So we're trying to fight period poverty in our community. So that's from the Wellington area all the way up to Masterton. So we provide free period products for people in, um, That can't afford them because there's a lot of people in our community that really struggle with that. So we're here today just spreading awareness. We've got some fact sheets and things like that. And then we've got some period, um, underwear and, um, cups and stuff for sale. And all the profit goes back into the work that we do. And we were actually one of the very first endo charities in [00:19:30] New Zealand to be inclusive of all genders that have endometriosis. Which is sad to say, because it shouldn't be something that's amazing, but yeah. So, and um, we are, we, we're a mixed, um, we've got like a big group of people, so we're a registered charity, we've got a youth, um, board, and we've just taken on two youth advisory board members. Um, Ash is non binary, and Cleaver, who has endo as well, he is trans male. So it's really good for us. For us to have a really good mix of everyone, and we don't want just my face to [00:20:00] be the face of the organisation, we want to show that like, we're here for everyone, and that's one of the most important things, because endo is such a difficult illness, and it's really difficult for people that have endo that are like, like me, cisgender female, to get diagnosed and get help, but then you throw in not being the gender that you were born with, and it's a lot more complicated, and there's a lot of discrimination that doctors put on. on those people because of their own personal views, which isn't really good enough. So, we're trying to make sure that we advocate for [00:20:30] everyone, and then come to appointments and step in and help them when they need that help. When did this all come together? So, I originally started it in February 2020. But we officially registered as a charity last October, so it's been going for quite a long time. Um, and we do like heaps of different things, working with different people. So we've helped, um, with our period underwear and stuff, where you don't have much at the moment, but um, the last few years we've helped quite a lot, a lot of young youth that are still at school that are transitioning into male. So they feel more comfortable [00:21:00] in their body when they do go through their period. Because we've, we've, we've talked to a lot of people and they don't feel comfortable with suiting anything. And it really, you know, affects their own mental health and stuff like that. So we've worked with a lot of, um, youth in that way in providing them, um, underwear. So it's just like a normal period. process and we're hoping to be able to once we raise more money to be able to do that a lot more because we do get a lot of people requesting that. How did you first get involved into creating this organization? So I have endo and back in 2019 I had a surgery to remove [00:21:30] my uterus. And it was like my seventh or eighth surgery and because I'm what they consider high risk They had to open me up like a c section and it caused a lot of problems I was in hospital a lot over the next six months with infections and blood clots and stuff like that And there was just no support out there And I thought about like my last 20 years of having endo and all the pregnancy losses and everything I've been through and there's just nothing, I felt like I was really alone and um, so I thought I'd start up a support place just so people can talk and it started as a Wellington organisation [00:22:00] but within like 24, 48 hours I realised that it needed to be bigger and then I just started it that way and it's just grown and grown since and um, it's just been really good. We get a lot of people message us and say how thankful they are to to just like, have this there and how much they've learned and things like that and it's, it's quite disappointing that we have to educate the medical system on the illness, you know, and that's the hard part, but hopefully things will change. Why is it important for you to be here today, um, doing what you're doing [00:22:30] with this whole organisation? Yep, so as I said, we were the first charity to become, um, inclusive of all genders and so we want to be here to make sure that people know that because we're every now and then we're yet different. people find our page. I had someone that was non binary that day email me and said they'd only seen our page because, um, Wellington Pride had shared it. And they were like, it's just amazing to find someone that's been inclusive. So we want to be here to show that we are inclusive of everyone and lend any support that we can. Um, so we, people come up to us here and just [00:23:00] ask for educational information, just, um, questions on things that they should talk to the doctors with or about their periods and stuff. like that and it's just showing that we're here to help everyone. Would you want to talk a little bit about what you have on your table? Yep, okay, so we have um, TENS machines, they're um, they're basically little sticky pads that you stick to yourself and it sends a little electric pulse through and that goes like they reckon to your spinal cord and your brain and that's for when you're in pain. and it helps lower that pain and, and they're fantastic, and a lot of people don't know about them, so [00:23:30] we, um, buy them in bulk from a company in Auckland, and because we can afford to buy them in bulk, we sell them at a very low price to make them more affordable, so everything that we sell is trying to make it more affordable for people. We've got patches that are labelled as period patches, but they're actually really good for all pain, I use them for my shoulder pain and everything like that, and they, um, last up to 12 hours, and they're vegan and biodegradable. Then we've got We've got period cups and we've got rainbow period cups, which I, I, when I found them, I thought, yes. Um, and we sell [00:24:00] those for 10 because we want to make them more affordable. But for people that want a period cup and can't afford that 10, which is fine, they can go to our website and there's a form they can fill in and we'll send one out to them. And then we've got different period underwear, um, and different sizes. We've got... Um, um, highways, briefs, and we've got like, um, shorts as well as period underwear. And then we've also got cycling shorts, which are, um, period underwear. And we sell them at a discounted price, just to make them more easy for [00:24:30] people to get. And then we've just got a bunch of fact sheets and, um, stuff from Mental Health New Zealand that people can, can take. Kia ora, today is the 18th of March and I am Howard. Gina Darmoclay. So what are you doing here today? Um, so today I'm volunteering out in the city, um, here at our info desk, letting everyone know what's happening at the Michael Fowler Centre, giving out maps and telling about events as well. Would you want to tell us what is happening today? Yes, yeah, so we've got, um, heaps of awesome community groups, um, market stalls as well as some other, um, like kind of [00:25:00] organisations that are here to promote kind of inclusivity, diversity, um, selling some of their handmade items as well as promoting kind of events and things that they get to offer. Why is it important for you to be here today? Um, as a queer person, as a queer young person, being able to be around other black minded people and other friends is really awesome. As well as getting to see allies and other members of the community come together in celebration of the rainbow community. Um, if you could sort of describe the sort of atmosphere of Inside the Michael Fowler Centre today, how would you [00:25:30] describe it if you had to give it a couple of words? Uh, it's bright, it's colourful, it's exciting, and it's really happy. Good vibes, yeah. Twirl with us if you want to! Twirl! exciting! Oh my goodness! Everyone, That's very true. Yes! Yes! Oh, they're excited. And also, we have the show off. [00:26:00] Look at all the space that the Queers have this year. What?! Look at all the space. Look at this. I perform in bars, with tiny stages. I'm not used to this. I can go for a run. Well, I actually ran so hard my shoe fell off, so that never happens. Wheeee! For a second I nearly lost him! Okay, alright, that's enough. Alright, we're good. Let's, let's cut there. Yeah, oh wow. That's good. This corset has not helped with that stitch, I'll tell you that now. Is it [00:26:30] no good? Is it no good? Oh, that's a shame. Hold on. Yes. Kia Michael Fowler. Senator, welcome to Out in the City. Uh, just a reminder, uh, a reminder, I am one of your MCs Maxwell. Oh, good one. And I'm your other host, slay West. I knew the fan would get that reaction for them. It was all the fan. Yes. That's amazing. I need a fan. I only have a very, very tiny fan and it's, I didn't wanna feel that inadequate out here with you, so I've got this. That's okay, We're gonna [00:27:00] share the fan look, this is what Pride's all about. Sharing, bonding, community. Give me a bit of the fan. You're watching Disney Channel. Hahaha This is some of that queer humour you've heard so much about. It's uh, it's a lot of sarcasm. It's a lot of being a little bit mean to each other, but it's with love. Just all love, it's all love, you know. That's what the fans are here for, to blow away a bit of that little shadiness. Hopefully the TERFs get that, it'll just we're not going to talk about how we really feel about that situation, cause you know, it's a nice PG. But [00:27:30] we're gonna... Kill them with kindness as you should with a lot of people that want to bring hate into the world. Kill them with kindness, a smile and a walk away. Exactly. It really annoys them a lot more. It truly does. It truly does. Uh, yes. So, um, yes. Welcome again to Pride. Uh, so, uh, we were talking backstage about what Pride. is about because um, often times they say that this year's Pride is this theme. And uh, the theme of this Pride has been explained to me many times, and each time it's been different. Um, and I've been trying to get it all together. [00:28:00] But we've come up, we know what it is, right? Well, we know what it is, but really, we can't put the queer kind of agenda into one box now, can we? That's true. No, we can't. We really can't. So, what does Pride mean? It means... It means joy. It means joy. Being proud. It can be encouragement. Yes. Love. Aroha. That's what we're here. We're here to support each other. We're all here to be, finding our little whānau. That's what we're hoping, right? Yes. Exactly. Yeah! Thank you for the clout. Heck [00:28:30] yes. It's the most politically, political thing I probably will do, so there we go. I'm sure we'll get more out of you later. I think maybe we should get maybe a first. Our first performer. Oh, are you ready for your first performer? Wonderful. Our very first performer is taking us all the way to the red carpet. It's awards season, and you're all winners. Give it up for Wellington's retro renegade, Selina Simone! [00:29:00] Today's date is the 18th of March and I am here with Vanessa from Ministry Primary Industries Primary Pride Network. So what brings you out here today? So I'm representing the Ministry Primary Industries, our Primary Pride Network. So promoting that, um, as a government agency we've got a really amazing diversity and inclusive network and just showcasing, um, how awesome our agency is and the work that we do to support our LGBTQIA How did you first get involved in doing this? Um, my child, my [00:29:30] teen, is non binary, trans. So, um, as part of Allyship, and I've just wanted to show my support to my colleagues. Yeah. So. What sort of work do you do with this organization? So, um, in my role, it's all around ensuring that our colleagues are, feel safe at work, and, um, know that it's a safe space to be in, and where we can, promoting, um, that we are a safe space to work in, yeah. Do you want to describe a little bit of what you have on your table? So, um, [00:30:00] Ministry of Primary Industries is obviously a very vast organisation doing a lot of really good work. Um, part of that organisation is New Zealand Food Safety. So we've got some free chopping boards to avoid cross contamination. So they're different colours. We've got some of our awesome Primary Pride pens, which are an amazing pen. Um, and candy canes. Why is it important for you to be here today? Um, to show my support to the community and, um, yeah, just to really showcase that, um, we're making inroads and making sure that, [00:30:30] uh, people have a safe space to work in. Today I'm here with? Monique. So what brings you out here today? Uh, so I'm here with the Pride group from my work and we are making shinier. Yeah, awesome. Why is it important for you to be here today? Um, I think pride is really important. It allows me to be who I am. And my business or the company that I work for really embraces that. Um, I hadn't come out [00:31:00] before I worked where I work now. And it's kind of made me feel... More confident and comfortable, and then I love giving that feeling to other people. With the company you work for, when did they start having sort of like, these groups come together for these events? Um, oh gosh, I think we've had a pride network for at least ten years. So yeah, a really long time, but um, I'm not actually a hundred percent sure. I think I've [00:31:30] done at least... Four or five years of festivals. So at least that amount of time. So is that you just like coming to different events and sort of setting up a stall and talking about things? Yeah, so we've done a lot of different things over the years. Um, when we were in the park we'd do like safe stands with water and chill out zones and games. Uh, we glitter bombed everyone one year, so everyone was getting glitter [00:32:00] on their faces. Um, we've done rainbow face paint, uh, and then this year, yeah, we're doing face gems. So, we always try and do something that is like a free activation for people. Um, we're not necessarily here to talk about our business. We're just here to spread joy. Show your support as well. Yeah, exactly. Um, who thought of the idea of doing face jams this year? Uh, me. In like a real, [00:32:30] um, late night, uh, moment. I saw a reel and saw an event doing them and I was like, that's what we're doing. And I messaged my friend the video and I... Uh, with all the exclamation points and all of the capital letters, it was like THIS! We're doing this! Um, and so yeah, that's why. Yeah. I am Heiweth. V Blackwood from the Human Rights Commission. Awesome. Would you want to talk to me a little bit about what you're here doing today? [00:33:00] Sure. So, I'm here, uh, we're here from Te Kahui Tika Tangata, the Human Rights Commission. So the Human Rights Commission, um, is New Zealand's National Independent Human Rights Institution. Um, we're there to provide, um, expert guidance, support, advocacy for human rights across Aotearoa. Um, human rights also include, of course, honouring Te which is Aotearoa's very first. document. [00:33:30] Um, so in the Rainbow Space, we do a lot of work from the individual. We have teams who can provide human rights information, support services, and an independent impartial mediation service. for anyone who feels that they've suffered discrimination, and discrimination includes um, discrimination against you based on your sexual orientation, your gender identity, um, including trans people, gender, um, non conforming people, [00:34:00] non binary people, um, we're there to support you. We have a team as well, who have been running for a year now, supporting, um, providing support and education and advocacy for survivors of conversion practices. So, as well as a criminal option, um, if people don't want to complain to the police, they can come to us, and we can provide what's called a safe space. which is again, um, a mediation, a complaint settlement. Um, that [00:34:30] team also does a huge amount of outreach and education, working with cultural and religious communities, um, to support them to understand. you know, the human rights of queer people and moving away from conversion practices so that every queer person across Aotearoa can be who they are without fear. Um, a huge list of what we do. What we also do is um, strategic research and advocacy, putting out research and [00:35:00] reports on human rights, how human rights impact on queer people, um. We're about to go underway on a human rights survey, which is the first of its kind asking people what they know about human rights. What human rights mean to them, including the queer community in that work. And we work at the international level sharing the experiences of people across Aotearoa and raising the profile there as [00:35:30] well. So, a wide, wide range, um, in a very small organization, but we really try to do as much as we can, get the message out there. Rainbow rights are human rights, and trans rights are human rights. When did you first start getting involved with this organization? I started at the commission just over three years ago. Before that, I was at the privacy commissioner, um, I have a background in human rights. So it's always been an area that I've been really dedicated and passionate about. [00:36:00] Um, studying, um, the opportunity to expand our hate speech provisions, to cover the queer community, gender minorities. Um, obviously that's a huge issue at the moment. It's been referred back to the Law Commission for further work. So I really encourage the queer community to get involved. with the Law Commission as they investigate that as well. Why is it important for you and your organization to be here today? It's important for me personally as a proud [00:36:30] member of the queer community and also, um, to bring my organization here, you know, an organization that I'm so privileged to be a part of, to show the queer community that we're here for you, your human rights. Human rights are going to use our voice, our standing as the independent organisation who promotes and protects human rights to say your human rights are so important, are so [00:37:00] integral to your dignity, everyone in Aotearoa deserves dignity and respect. So that's what we are here for. Would you wanna talk to me a little bit about what you've got on your table? Absolutely. So what we have, first of all, are lollies to get anyone in the door. We have, um, face stickers and some glitter. If anyone needs a bit of shine in their day. We have an example of the report prism that we released in June. That report, um, outlines human rights issues [00:37:30] relating to the broader queer community and provides key recommendations of what we think should be done. We have a questionnaire for people to fill out asking what do human rights mean to you? It's a huge question, obviously, um, but we're really keen to hear from the community, um, and understand what we can do better as well. So what kind of work we need to do to further promote the profile of human rights? Today's the 18th of March and I'm here with, uh, [00:38:00] Mike Fairhurst. What brings you out here today? Um, so I'm on the board of Rainbow Wellington. Uh, we're a charity that operates. It's in Wellington, uh, obviously. Um, we have an awesome grants program, which I really like, which actually helped pay for the festival that we're at right now. And some of the, some of the smaller community groups around, um, have tables because of us, our grants program. Um, yeah, but we run events throughout the, yeah, throughout the year. Um, yeah. When did you first get [00:38:30] involved in doing this sort of thing? Uh, probably about three years ago. Yeah, I moved to Wellington. I didn't have a huge amount of queer friends, um, but one of my friends was on the board, um, yeah, and got involved, and yeah, like, now most of my friend network is queer, which is awesome. Um, what does it mean to you to be here today? Oh, it's amazing to be just, you know, here, so... In such a visible spot in the city. I [00:39:00] mean last time I was here We were right with Cuba Dupa and here we've got homegrown right right here Like it just feels like we are like integrating in with the city and all of the events that are happening here It just feels like really good to be visible What future events do you have in the upcoming months? Um, so we've got, we have, uh, uh, monthly drinks, uh, just a social thing, uh, on the second Friday of every month we rotate around some of the bars here in Wellington, um, but we have a lot of, um, [00:39:30] networking events that we host with corporates here as well, and then just other cute little events, um, so we'll have a, um, uh, an event for Pink Shirt Day coming up as well, which is cool. Today I am Howard. Clara Brightenmoser. So what brings you out here today? Um, I'm here with the Punaki Promise. It's a partnership agreement between Wellington City Council and a group of other organisations who are wanting to make our city safe and vibrant and welcoming for everyone. How did you first get involved in doing this? Um, so I [00:40:00] work at Wellington City Council, um, and we were invited as many of the stool holders to come along today, um, and be part of the conversation, and we're here today to work out what, or to hear from people what a safe city is for them and looks and feels like for them. Do you have any projects underway to make Wellington a safer city for our queer people? Um, so we have projects underway in a whole lot of different areas, um, a large part is in our sexual violence prevention [00:40:30] work, so an action plan is underway there, um, and we've been really focusing on, um, primary prevention and, um, messages of positive consent, and where people can get support, and working with, um, the University Students Associations to, um, bring those to life. Um, but we're also looking at how do we improve public spaces so that people, um, feel able to use them and be there and make the most of them in ways that are safe for everyone, [00:41:00] um, as well as opening new community spaces that people can spend time at. Why is it important for you or you with this organization to be here today? I think it's important to be here today because this is such a celebration of people feeling safe to be who they are and express themselves. And I mean, a vision would be that everyone could feel this safe anywhere that they are. So. today to find out specifically what does make, um, the place feel safe because safety is such a personal thing, um, [00:41:30] and something that feels safe to one community might not feel safe to the others. So we just want to make sure that every voice is heard. Could you describe a little bit about what you have just around you in your little corner? Yeah, so I'm, um, helping out on sort of two spaces. We've got a play space, a place that people can just come and take a moment, hang out with their friends. Um, but we also have a blackboard, which is where we're asking people to draw or write what that safe city looks like for them. Um, and our hope is that we'll have a [00:42:00] beautiful, expressive board at the end of the day. We'll be able to use that to help us plan projects and work in the central city, but also display that and help us, um, visualize what that safe city looks like for the queer community. If you could sort of, um, describe the atmosphere around us in a couple words, how would you describe it? So positive, so fun, it looks really beautiful, they've done an amazing job, um, making this Michael Fowler Centre look really... special. Cool. Um, today I'm here with, [00:42:30] uh, Annie Jones, Emma Wallum. What brings you both out here today? Cool. So, um, we both work for ABI rehab, which is a, uh, national brain injury provider. Um, but we represent the community service based in Tawa. So, um, we're both members of the rainbow community and I guess we're really passionate about. pride in health, uh, access to healthcare for our community. Um, and yeah, just really want to share a positive vibe [00:43:00] of rainbow members are working in health, uh, and try and educate people, um, around brain injury and concussion management. And outside of ABI, I'm also So, um, I'm a speech and language therapist and I'm, um, working in the area of gender affirming voice, um, so working with anyone who's transitioning and, um, wants their, uh, voice to align with their identity, um, so representing both of those aspects of, uh, rainbow healthcare, yeah. [00:43:30] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. How'd you both first get involved into this sort of organization? Yeah, so, um, I guess my background is a physiotherapist, um, but I've, um, also identify as lesbian. Um, so I guess my journey through healthcare has often been, um, as in a, working in healthcare has often been, um, there's not many out rainbow members. I know that's kind of changing now. So I guess, um, What we know is often, uh, accessing health services or [00:44:00] visiting different health services can be really scary for people of minority groups. And so I guess, um, when I saw that Out in the City was on, I thought it would be a really cool event for us to come, um, and represent our community, uh, but also represent all the great work that ABI are doing. Yeah, um, I've been involved in the brain injury. space for a while. Um, when I lived in Auckland, I ran a singing group for Brain Injury Auckland. Um, and yeah, I'm, I'm really passionate about, uh, [00:44:30] providing healthcare for, um, people who, uh, are underserved, um, by, by healthcare. And I feel like that's true of the rainbow community, um, and, uh, for the, um, within the rainbow community, the trans community as well. So, uh, yeah. I, uh, started working for ABI last August, um, but I love brains. Um, love brains, love the things that go on in them, love what happens to them, yeah, yeah. Why is it important for you both to be here today? [00:45:00] Yes, um, we just, uh, would like to, I guess, um, connect with the rainbow community, uh, represent pride in healthcare, which is definitely underrepresented, um, and also help to, I guess, um, Connect with the community in terms of brain injury and helping people to understand where they can access help, um, if they need to. Yeah, the, um, the rainbow community tends to be kind of underserved by, um, a lot of, uh, [00:45:30] aspects of health or, uh, have a bit less access to healthcare, so, um, Yeah, we're just raising awareness that we exist and are a safe place to come, um, for, uh, people who are part of the rainbow community. Yeah. Do you want to just describe a little bit about what you've got on your table in front of us? Yes. I have been told that I'm giving away too many of these squishy stress ball brains, um, So we're literally representing neuroplasticity here, um, with our squishy stress ball brains. So if you answer a question about [00:46:00] brains, um, you get to win a squishy brain or a lolly. Uh, and I've been giving too many hints, um, so I gotta be, I gotta be more, uh, more hard line about giving away more of them, I think, yes, um, but, uh, also you can get a lolly if you just, um, name parts of the brain that you're aware of. So, that's, that's what we're offering today. Um, plus, uh, just, yeah, knowledge, a chance to have a bit of a chat about brains, um, or about, uh, gender affirming voice work. Um, yeah, whatever you're interested in. [00:46:30] Come have a korero. Kia ora, today I am here with... Terry, Terry Finn. And I'm here with the Glamourphones. choir. And so what are you doing here today with your organization? We're just being present. We're showing that in Wellington, we have a rainbow choir that is open to all comers and that we welcome both people to come back because we had a bit of a hiatus over COVID, but also any new members who are keen to come along. Um, that's why we're here. Could you describe a little bit about what you have on your table? We have a picture frame, which is all glitzed and glamored up for people to have their [00:47:00] photograph taken in. Uh, prospective members and just people who are interested. We have a big banner about our, um, our choir. And we have our friendly faces with a QR code here, so that people can go to our website and see the background, the whakapapa of our choir, which is quite deep and long in Wellington. And we're very proud of it. Kia ora today, Aimee Howard. Roaro. Awesome. What brings you here today? Um, I just wanted to come to Pride to just check it out, see the gay vibes, and just have fun. I've got my day off [00:47:30] today, so, yeah. How would you encourage other people to come over today if they weren't able to make it? Um, I would say just come. Like, Pride is so fun. And even if you're straight, like, you could learn a lot from all of the cool gay people here. So, come. Pride is here for everybody. What cool things have you seen today? Lots of drag queens, walking around, just lots of like gay people. Um, everyone who's gay is cool. What does [00:48:00] it mean for you to be here today? To be here today means to be gay. And to be LGBTQ and love being different and being who you are. Period. Kia ora, today I am here with? Uh, Megan McNeil. So what brings you here today? Uh, so I'm volunteering with the Burnett Foundation. Um, so it used to be called the AIDS Foundation. Um, so we're doing free testing downstairs. Um, and I'm giving away free... free condoms and [00:48:30] lubes, um, free, um, condom fit kits, so you can test which size and texture is best for you, um, and then we're partnering with some of the other foundations, um, they're all downstairs and they're doing free testing and it's really good work. When did you start getting involved with them? Oh, about a year ago, um, I started doing the condom packing, so every Thursday night. Um, we pack these little condom and lube packets, so it's like very, like, social, fun, and just like a good thing to do for the [00:49:00] community. Why do you think it's important for you to be here today? Oh, really good question. Um, well definitely sexual health is extremely important. Um, and it's something that I'm really passionate about, is like, talking about it, ending stigma, that sort of thing. If you could describe the atmosphere of today's event, how would you describe it? Oh, it's so fun. It's very, like, wholesome and sweet. Um, I've spent so much money. Um, so there's so many little crafts and, like, really good organizations. Yeah, it's very cool. Kia [00:49:30] ora today, I'm here with... Liam, would you want to take me through a little bit about what you've got on your table? Okay, uh, so we have the first four issues of a zine series called Locals. Or local queers, and it is, um, a co papa we started a couple of months ago Where we commission local illustrators and artists to do portraits of queer people that live in Wellington Um, the idea being that like Uh, we can kind of celebrate everyday. [00:50:00] People that are just sort of living their lives and, uh, you know, your friend or your uncle or your whatever. Um, yeah, and just kind of acknowledge that like, sometimes just living your life and moving through the world as a queer person is like an active resistance. Why do you think it's important to showcase queer art for queer people? Um, I think it's really important to have a... space where, um, our, our [00:50:30] people don't have to explain themselves and, um, can implicitly understand one another. And also, um, with this project, we span, uh, every part of the acronym. And I think that is, um, an important thing to uphold to kind of move towards a queer solidarity for future, especially when like. The right are sort of coming for us at the moment. I think we need to like, uh, bunker down and like, practice collective [00:51:00] action and, yeah. When did you start getting involved in all of this? Um, I've been working with Wellington Zine Fest for about five years, um, but this project just came to, to me like, yeah, three months ago. Um, but I would like to do more. I mean, this four here, um, I can think of lots of other people that I would love to work with, lots of other people that I would love to represent, and people seem to be really into it, so, yeah. Kia ora, today is the 18th of March, and I am here with... Savannah Stint, hello. [00:51:30] So what brings you out here today? Um, I'm just here with one of my besties. And I came here my first year of university and I had fond memories, so it's nice to be back third year and see all the awesome storeholders and all the cool stuff. And it's nice to see all the, like, the nice queer space. It's nice. What cool things have you seen today? Um, a lot of art. A lot of art. A lot of really cool art as well. A lot of body positivity stuff, which I just want to buy all of it. Have you spent a lot of money today? [00:52:00] Not yet. I'm, I'm doing the rounds and then I'm like, okay, let's see about buying this but on a budget. Yeah. It's to be expected. How would you describe the overall atmosphere of today's events? Well, it's very free. It's very bubbly. It's very happy and busy as well. And it's very colorful. How would you encourage other people to come along today? Um, I would just call my friends and say get here now. Or, um, I would like do a little post on Instagram about how cool it is, you know, one of the ones [00:52:30] where you do the little pan around everywhere. Everyone's like, oh my goodness, that's so cool, I've got to get there. Yeah, that's how. That's really fun. Thank you so much. Cheers. Kia ora, today I'm here with... Hi, my name is AJ. So what brings you out here today? Uh, Intersex Aotearoa, uh, is about, uh, celebrating, uh, intersex people and building a community. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Would you wanna talk to me a little about what you've got on your table at the moment? [00:53:00] Uh, hell yeah. Uh, we have these, uh, fantastic, uh, intersexy stickers. And my, uh, favourite, uh, stickers, wait, am I allowed to swear? Yes, yes. Uh, they say fuck normal on them. Uh, basically, uh, the idea that normal is something that people should strive to or something that even exists. Uh... Is, is harmful. Uh, so, yeah, fuck normal. [00:53:30] When did you first get involved with working with this organization? Yo, so, I met a lot of the people from Intersex Aotearoa through being involved in the Intersex Caucus. Uh, which is, uh, sort of a, uh, advice. Group like, uh, uh, intersex people on call for, um, people to, to, uh, discuss how wars might affect, uh, the intersex [00:54:00] community. Um, so I met a lot of the fantastic people, uh, here through that. Uh, and, um, I, I guess I've just been, uh, low key involved in some of, um, Uh, the, the mahi that, uh, Intersect Aotearoa does. Um, since meeting some people there. Today's date is the 18th of March, and I am [00:54:30] here with... Anais! So is this your first Pride event? It is! It's my first prize! How are you finding it so far? It's really fun. I love it. From what you can see around you, how would you describe the atmosphere? Um, it's very, like, joyful, and welcoming, and friendly, and, like, excited. Everyone seems really happy to be here, and everyone's just really themselves, which is amazing. Yeah, it's a wonderful atmosphere. Is it important for you to be here today? It is, [00:55:00] it is, because it's my first, first ever Pride and I've been wanting to go for the past few years, so I think it's great that I can come and be a part of the community.

IRN: 3590
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/remembering_georgina_beyer.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004707
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093097
TITLE: Remembering Georgina Beyer
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Annie Jones; Arrun Soma; Chanel Hati; Chelsea Adams; Christine Seymour; De'Anne Jackson; Donal Raethel; Emma Wollum; Fiona McGregor; Hamish Allardice; Jelly O'Shea; Lee Eklund; Leliel Trethowen; Maddy Drew; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Renee Paul; Roger Swanson; Ruth Stowers; Tony Reed; Vee Blackwood; Welby Ings
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 2020s; 2nd hand clothing; About Face: Jewel's Darl (tv, 1985); Alfies 1; All Blacks; Annie Jones; Aotearoa New Zealand; Arrun Soma; Big Gay Out (Auckland); Bloomers Review (Alfies); Brian Tamaki; Burnett Foundation Aotearoa; Carmen Rupe; Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Carterton; Chanel Hati; Change for the Better: The Story of Georgina Beyer As Told to Cathy Casey (2000, book); Chelsea Adams; Christine Seymour; Civil Union Act (2004); Close to Home; Club Exotic; Dana de Milo; De'Anne Jackson; Destiny Church; Donal Raethel; Emma Wollum; Enough is Enough (2004, Destiny Church rally); Family First NZ; Fiona McGregor; GAP (Gay Association of Professionals); Gender Minorities Aotearoa (GMA); Georgie Girl (2001); Georgina Beyer; Georgina Beyer Way (street); Gisborne Boys High School; HIV / AIDS; Hamish Allardice; Hui Takatāpui; ILGA World; India; Intersex Trust Aotearoa New Zealand (ITANZ); Jelly O'Shea; Kapiti Gay (Coast Access Radio); Lee Eklund; Leliel Trethowen; Maddy Drew; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Member of Parliament; Michael Fowler; Michael Fowler Centre; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; Naked Girls Reading; National Party; Nazi Germany; Netherlands; New York Times; New Zealand Labour Party; Nicole Duval; Oliver's nightclub (Wellington); Out in the City (Wellington); Out in the Park (Wellington); Parliament buildings; Parliament grounds; Prostitution Reform Act (2003); Putāruru; Rainbow Room; Renee Paul; Rion McKenzie; Roger Swanson; Ron Mark; Royal Oak Hotel; Ruth Stowers; Shark in the Park (tv); Shortland Street (tv); Stonewall riots (1969); TVNZ (Television New Zealand); The Cave (Cuba Street); The Purple Onion; Tony Reed; Tīwhanawhana; United Kingdom; Vee Blackwood; Vivian Street; Wairarapa; Welby Ings; Wellington; Wellington Pride Festival; Wellington Pride Festival (2023); World Pride 2023 (Sydney); Yvette Kennedy; activism; bigotry; civil unions; clothing; coffee; coffee bar; colonialism; conservative; deadname; discrimination; farming; fear; gender expression; gender identity; gender nonconforming; government; hate; hate crime; history; homophobia; homosexual law reform; honesty; human rights; kidney transplant; love; mayor; media; misgendered; misgendering; news; non-binary; patriarchal system; politics; positive change; queen; queer; rural; sex work; small town; special coffee; striptease; takatāpui; television; trans woman; transexual; transgender; transphobia; whakawahine; whānau
DATE: 18 March 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: The 2023 Wellington Pride Festival was made more emotional with the passing of community icon Georgina Beyer. The first public mention of Georgina's failing health was mentioned during Pride's opening hīkoi on Saturday 4 March. She passed away on Monday 6 March 2023. Shortly after, we started recording short interviews during Pride events with close friends and community members in honour of Georgina.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: October 2023
TEXT: My name is Rene Paul, and I first met Georgina back in 1979 1980. So I've known her for just over 50 years. And, um, I met her in a strip club where I was working. I was in that club Exotic. And she was, uh, her in... The, um, Purple Onion, it was just closing down, right? So they ended up coming up to the Exotic to come and work with us. So that's how I met her. And when I first started, I was in Borch. And [00:00:30] then, about a week later, I had a dress on. And I had Georgie and Dana and Evette to sort of, um, school me in how to behave and how to react and how to work on stage and then how to dress. So, um... They sort of guided me when I first started out and, um, without them I wouldn't be who I am today, you know. Because, um, they gave me the strength to be myself, um, to, um, yeah, just to express myself [00:01:00] and don't be shy about it, you know. And Georgina always said to me, be proud of what you are, and I said, well, I am. You know, so, she gave me the, um, the, the, the strength to, to be out there and be myself and that, so, you know, I've really got that to thank Georgie for, and, um, and for the person she was towards me, you know, so, yeah, without her and Yvette and, and Dana, um, I wouldn't be here today, I don't think, you know, I might have been, might have taken a different road and ended up in a [00:01:30] bad place, sort of thing, but without, with them. They guided me to the right place and that, so, yeah, I'm really appreciative of what they did. Can you describe Georgina's personality? Um, very strong. She had a strong personality. She was very open, very, um, she spoke her mind. And that's what I like about her. And I tell you, there's another thing about us, there's three of us. Yvette, Georgia, myself, we're all born in the same month, we're all, um, same age, [00:02:00] and that's, um, but I was the youngest out of the three of us, because I think Georgia was on the 6th of November, Yvette was on the 7th 18th of November. So we used to have a scorpion party every year. And like, when I was working up there was nine of us, they were all scorpions, so can you imagine that? You know, all working together. And we all had sharp mouths and that, so you learn to stick up for yourself really well in that environment and that, so yeah, I really appreciate [00:02:30] everything I learned from Georgie and that. So did Georgie have any favourite sayings that you remember? Um, she had a few sayings and that. But, um, I can't think of any at the moment and that, but she always comes up with some really, really trick things and that, and I go, oh my god, you're so good with your mouth. I say, there's more than one way of using your mouth, isn't there girl? We used to say things like that to each other, you know. Like when I first started stripping and that, as a woman, I mean, I was flat chested. [00:03:00] Georgie and Donna had breasts and, and Yvette and I didn't. So it was like a competition and we had to work harder because we didn't have the breasts. So we had to dance better and do everything else better than Georgie and Donna 'cause they had that, all the assets and that and that. But it was really good 'cause it was a, um, it was a good, um, environment to work in because we were all testing each other and pushing each other to do the best you could. And that's what I really appreciate, yeah. What do you think [00:03:30] Georgie's legacy is going to be? I think the To be strong, to stand up for yourself and, and never look back. Always look forward. You know, that's what I think anyway, yeah. Georgie and I met, oh gosh, I'm thinking right back in the, um, right back in the late 70s? Yeah, about the late 70s and we all used to dance together up at the Club Exotic. So, yeah, so precious memories of, um, of Georgina [00:04:00] Bayer and the accomplishments she made to trans, trans people and to the gay society too. I mean, just so many, because we were actually discriminated against, you know, being a trans, transsexual person and everything. And then Georgina, what she actually did was that she stomped those all out, especially when she came into parliament and everything. That was just, boom, [00:04:30] you know, we just got so many. We're quite privileged to have had Georgina, um, yeah, yes, walk, walk, our walk, and, um, yeah, and then allow her to speak our, our talk and everything. But, I mean, the whole of, of, um, gay... people throughout Aotearoa New Zealand. So, yeah. But she was a lovely, she's going to be missed very dearly, Georgina. Um, yes, but [00:05:00] we will always hold her, I will always hold her in my heart and everything, so. So, knowing Georgina right back in the 1970s, late 70s, yeah, so how was it when you started seeing her on TV as a member of Parliament or as the Mayor? Wow, it was so blown away, I mean, it was so, that was a big accomplishment for any chance to even get their toe in the door, um, at Parliament was a big accomplishment for us. But, um, yes, yes, to [00:05:30] see her do that and everything. Just so many leaps and bounds that she took. I mean she had discriminations against her because of her, who she was at that time too. But she was able to stomp those all, all out and tread on all those, um, those, um, things of what people thought about our people and everything, so yes. Can you describe her personality? Um, if you ever got on the wrong side of her, watch out. Don't go treading [00:06:00] on her toes, oh my gosh, she will tread on, she will break your foot. Do you know what, she had that personality about her. Oh not so much break your foot, she will probably put on some stilettos and, you know, stiletto your foot. If that makes sense, but um, yeah, yeah. Other than that, she was a very gentle type of a person from what I remember way back in the day. Because she was, she was very gentle and everything, but as soon as she got into Parliament and everything, [00:06:30] I hadn't seen Georgina like that, you know, I was like, oh. Oh, oh, this is the same Georgina that I knew way back in there, because she was very quiet, very reserved and everything, because she wasn't as out there. But then again, I think that might be the media, they pick up and they show all those angry... Stuff and everything all about Georgina, but she was a really, really, we're actually quite lucky to have had Georgina Beyer in our, um, in our [00:07:00] community, in our lives and everything, so. What was Club Exotic like in the 1970s? I mean, um, there was a whole lot of people working there, yeah? Yes. Yes, yes, yes. It was beautiful. It was, um, we performed, when we danced on stage, we performed for the likes of the New Zealand cricket team, the All Blacks, the um, the local rugby team here. We also, we also, um, were asked to perform for the, the gang members, you know, the Mongomods, the Black Powers, and I, I excuse myself every time I, [00:07:30] You know, we had to perform for them. But, I mean, we performed for, and then the general public, and we were always busy with the young guys coming in from construction, and da da da da. So, yeah, so it was the whole array of, um, men. Yes, or sometimes some men brought their wives, because their wives liked to sing. Queen's dancing, I guess. But yeah, yeah, yeah. She wasn't as, um, [00:08:00] yeah, she wasn't as built and slim as us girls, but I mean, she was still... Yeah. Do you remember any sayings that Georgie had? Were there kind of phrases that she would use? Mmm, girl, girl, girl, girl, girl, girl, I can see her now, girl, girl, girl, like I had our Takatāpui Hoi and um, she turned around and I had a [00:08:30] Coco Chanel gown on and she turned around and she said to me, as I was walking towards the bus to go to our ball, she was going, oh I've got a Louis Vuitton gown, just like that when I went, oh well I'm so glad I didn't wear my Louis Vuitton. But yeah, we had that banter between queens, that sisterhood, you know what I mean, Gareth? Yeah, that sisterhood thing, but yeah. No, we're so going to miss her and everything. What do you think her legacy is going to be? [00:09:00] Oh, live your life to the best of your own ability. Stand proud. In your stilettos. And be the best that you can be. In everything that you, that you do. I guess that would be her. Yeah, that would be her. Her saying and everything, her legacy I guess. Yeah. Okay, well, my name is Chanel and um, Georgina. Oh my gosh, the first time I [00:09:30] met Georgina, I was only new to Wellington and um, I um, I was sitting in the, uh, uh, in Carmen's, this is just before it closed, anyway, she walks in and she had a, she had this Angora, um, turquoise jump, v neck jumper on, and I looked at my mate and I said, who's that? And she went, that's Georgie, and I went, Georgie who? Jujubea and she a queen? And she went, yeah. I said, Oh my God, she's beautiful. [00:10:00] But she goes, yeah, but don't tell her that. And I said, no, she's just gorgeous. And I got to know her over the years. I actually, um, I did a show with her at the bottom. It was, um, at Oliver's nightclub. Her and myself, actually, it's on the wall at the S and M. And, um, you know, um, she did Mae West and that was her part. And, um, she had the whole costume, but she was like. She had no cues, no lines, it was just off her head and it was so, I'd never [00:10:30] seen anything like it. And she was just amazing and I think for Georgina Bayer, you know, having the profile that she grew into came from people like Carmen, who ran for me in 1977. She didn't get it because it was a time where you had to conform to a standard. You know, and if you didn't conform to that standard while you were stigmatized and marginalized and all that kind of stuff, but out of that came, uh, good because, uh, today we look, uh, [00:11:00] like, uh, she paved the way for Georgina and, and, and not just her, but other people to enter political spaces and now you look at, um, Our rainbow, we've got rainbow people in there, we have rainbow flags outside so, you know, um, it's, it's come a long way but you need somebody to dream that and then you need the community, the next generation to pick that up and carry it and all those who come with that group. There will be somebody in there that will follow and will be an, um, you know, um, an icon for, or, or, or, or, or an [00:11:30] example for your community. And that's what Georgina Bayer was. And to hear of her passing to me was, uh, really sad because, uh, she was on fire when she spoke. And she spoke from the heart. I mean, I work for the New Zealand Sex Workers Collective and I remember she did that, um, impassioned speech at, um, during the night of the passing of the legislation and she just slayed it and I think part of that was help that, uh, get through, even though, um, actually that night one, uh, minister did abstain from voting, [00:12:00] which actually helped, was a, was, was, was good luck, you know, on top of what she did, but she, she, she was just amazing and, you know, and to her, I'll just say, um, You know, rest in peace. Um, somebody will come along. They don't come along that often. But they will and they will pick up where you left off and um... And you'll be remembered always by, not just our community, but by the people of Carterton who adored you. And I hear naming a street after her, which is great. And, [00:12:30] um, and a friend of mine rang, uh, emailed me and said, um, I just want to tell you that I've just lowered the flag at half mast for Jenna Bale. And I thought, oh, that's so kind. And he goes, and I think they're naming a street after her, and I'm like, wow. That's great, so, you know, Georgina, e te rangatira, moi haere ati ra, kia ora. Are you able to describe Georgie's personality? Oh, well, [00:13:00] that's, uh, that's, she, she actually had two personalities. There was her, there was her fire, but she still had that fire, but when she spoke to... Like other queens from her era, she sort of, she sort of, um, was Georgie and laughed and when you get those memories into your head, you know, about, and people that you, you, you've connected with over the years and you've made friends with all those years, everything else just seems to melt away and you just seem to go back into that and sit down and laugh just [00:13:30] like you did all those years ago and that's what I found about her and um, and she was really, she was, she was quite funny and very witty. Um, and, and, she was like that, um, when she was in, um, in politics, you know, witty, sharp, and I think, um, you know, even that part of her comes from, um, you know, having doors shut on you, slam, slam, slam, no, no, no, and just being able to say, hey, excuse me, this is me, this is who I am, you know, nothing's black or [00:14:00] white, this is just how it is, and, um, what you see is what you get, basically, wraps her up to me. And what about her performance? Can you describe her in performance? You mean on stage? Well, I remember going to see her at, uh, at, uh, Bloomers in Auckland, cause she was part of that show with Nicole Duval and, and, and Bianca and all of them, and, um, Oh, she was just an amazing performer, uh, she was a, she was a, a good lip syncer, but, um, she, she wasn't so much a dancer, [00:14:30] more a, more, more a striptease way, way of dancing, but that's the style that she, that she grew up with, but, um, no, she was a great performer, and, uh, I remember, e e even on television. Even on television, I mean, I remember seeing her on, uh, Shortland Street, and I saw her on Shark in the Park. Pigeonholed into, you know, wild sex work. And it would've been nice if they'd given her something different, but that's, that's the way it was. But, um, yeah, as a, as a TV performer, she's been acting since close to home. That's [00:15:00] how far back Georgie goes. She was great, and I've seen her in, in all those elements. I've seen her political element, I've seen her showgirl element, and then I've seen her just as she is when we're around. Talking. What do you think, uh, Georgie's legacy will be? Well, hopefully, hopefully, not saying a trans girl, but hopefully to inspire younger people that you are living in this world. Not a world that we came from, because we came from a, from, from a different world where things we're [00:15:30] very, very conservative and, um, I think, to me, that's when, uh, we naturally all come together and say, you know, no, we, we, we as rainbow people deserve a space in this world as well. And I'm so proud to, um, say that I live in a country where, where, where the government will look at you and say, hey, if you can do it, go and do it, you know. And we've had a trans girl, we've had [00:16:00] a Rastafarian. We've even had our next activist as a member of parliament. So, if he can do the job, our country is so great and, um, we still have a little bit to fix up in terms of, um, healthcare and stuff like that, but, um, nothing is ever, nothing is ever, um, perfect. And, uh, things, things, the stigma, you know, around, um, rainbow people and, uh, that kind of stuff is, is, is, is gone. It's not gone, it's, it's just better than [00:16:30] it used to be. So, young people, just, you know, hold your head up and, um, you know, you know, live your life and, um, do positive things for the community because that's what helps our community survive and that's what people like Georgina did, she brought a, she brought, um, uh, our, our, our community's attention to the world, like, wow, a trans, a gender MP, how great is that? And others are following around the world, I heard there's a trans woman in the American Senate somewhere, you know, but, [00:17:00] um. She's got a big battle ahead, you know, but Georgina, she stood her ground and fought her battle to the end. We're currently sitting in the Michael Fowler Centre and literally a metre away from us we have two, um, floor tiles that Carmen sponsored for the Michael Fowler Centre, which are just down here. And isn't that amazing, just that kind of resonance from Carmen, from talking about Georgina, and now here we are in Pride 2023. Yes, that's [00:17:30] amazing. Floor tiles, I'm surprised they didn't put her name on it. Where are they? We'll go up and have a look at them in a minute, but just around here, yes, I think they should actually dig those floor tiles up and do a different colour. Yeah, I think so, but, you know, at the same time... She's got, she's got traffic lights, and she's got a bench, and she doesn't need the floor tiles, but that'll, that'll be nice, but it'll be nice to see, um, Georgie's name [00:18:00] on something, you know, and so you can follow up from there, and maybe in the future when we're not here, um, there'll be some young, a younger person, doesn't have to be trans, but just somebody from our community, who set the world on fire, and um, done the same thing. I'm Malcolm Vaughan. First time I met Georgina was, um, when we were both working at the old Royal Oak Hotel together. Um, she was a, uh, night security porter and I was working in the Oaks Coffee Lounge. We met there and our, um, [00:18:30] flatmate at the time, Rion, we all worked together. And Georgie moved to town, had nowhere to live, and we went moving with her. And, um, so she did, and we've been friends for over 50 years now. What's it like seeing Georgina's progression from working around this area to being Mayor of Carterton, to being the Member of Parliament? I mean, that's a stunning, stunning journey. Oh, it was an amazing journey because, um, when we were flatting together, Rion and Georgie were both, uh, they were working at, uh, [00:19:00] the Club Exotic, and they were doing, um, dancing and stripping down there. And I remember distinctly, as I said in one of the interviews that I, um, did with, um, Maori television, that Georgie said to me one day, Lordy, lordy, lordy, there's gotta be a better life than this. And as I said, that's when, uh, Georgina changed. And, and, um, I think she always had a, a, a bit of a, time with her family, um, she was basically ostracized by herself and, um, she just wanted to prove herself, you know, that, you know, I can do this and I am better than you think I am. And, um, [00:19:30] that's what she did. She set about to make a better life for herself. And I think that was the name of her book. Or for a better life. Georgina passed away just over a week ago now. What's it been like for you and Scotty? Oh, it's been quite dramatic really. It's been very hectic. It's not every day you lose one of your closest friends. There's been a lot to do, but we've managed to do all that. Um, I think the hardest part is, is, is, um, the grieving really starts after you've done most of the work. Um, you tend to do some grieving, um, while [00:20:00] the person, while you're sitting with the person. Um, but it's that factor that pops up like, you know, she's not going to pop round for dinner every Monday like she normally does. Or getting the phone call, you know, are you home? I'm coming round, you know. The other sort of things that I think we're really going to miss and that's just started kicking in this week. Can you describe, uh, Georgie's personality? Oh, fiery. Let's go with it straight away. Um, as, as, uh, Ron Mark said, um, they're naming a street after Georgina Runcartan. It's going to be called Georgina Byer Way. And they're [00:20:30] doing that simply because everything Georgina Byer did, she did it her way. And, um, I think that's just a fantastic tribute. She was outstanding. She's coloured so many people's lives. She's engaged with so many people. Um, outstanding. I don't think we're ever going to come across the like of Georgina Beyer again. What do you think her legacy will be? Guts and conviction. She had the guts to stand up for what she believed in, and, uh, just the amount of people she's helped over life. The amount of lives she's changed by standing up, being [00:21:00] counted, and being herself, and inspiring everybody else just to be themselves. Do your own thing. When somebody passes, um, often a lot of people kind of come out of the woodwork from, from all corners of the world. Have you received lots of messages or communications from people that, that just, just kind of blow you away? Oh, 100%. We've had embassies from around the world, um, um, popping up on the tribute book, um, and, and messages. More, more so from the embassies to our personal email. [00:21:30] Um, the amount of outpouring and grief just on, on the release of the fact that Georgina had passed away was truly outstanding. Um, I think everybody feels the same. In fact, we're still getting those messages today. Flowers have arrived in the bar on numerous occasions. Um, It's been truly outstanding. Yeah, amazing. One of the things that really struck me was on the, on the night that she passed Television One News, it was the lead story and it ran for six or seven minutes and they crossed live to [00:22:00] Carterton And I thought I can't imagine any other rainbow queer person in New Zealand kind of getting that coverage. from, um, not only rainbow communities, but also mainstream communities as well? Oh, totally, 100%. Um, I think, uh, Georgina passed away on the Monday, and on the Wednesday, she was on the front page of the New York Times. And I think if you look at her lifestyle, she's, um, she's made an impact, not just here in New Zealand, but worldwide. And that's what's truly outstanding about her. For somebody of her calibre, and being transgender, to make it as far as she did, [00:22:30] it just shows how powerful this woman was. Just finally, how did she impact your life? Oh, the best friend for life. It's just all about, um, when you've been together so long, and you've gone your separate paths, but you've always kept in contact. And, uh, after Georgina had the transplant, she was considerably thinner, and she'd moved back to Wellington. And it was our point of mine and Scotty's saying, We need to look after her. We need to make sure she's okay. We've got to make sure she's eating. So, [00:23:00] every Monday night we'd have a soiree and a dinner party. And every Monday night, George would be coming around. She was entertaining. She was charismatic. Um, the camaraderie we shared over the many, many years, that'll never be forgotten. Um, she's indented in our lives forever. Um, as I think she will be with many people here in New Zealand and around the world. Kia ora, um, my name is Vi. You know, I don't even remember the first time I came across Georgina. She's always been such a public figure. Um, so staunch in terms of her [00:23:30] advocacy and her political visibility. Just such a groundbreaker. Um, and I always, even as a young person, knew vaguely before. Before I knew anything much else about her, that she was the world's first transgender MP and I felt so proud that we as a country had supported someone to achieve that. I think that that should be, you know, the bare minimum worldwide. Can you describe the first time perhaps you saw her on [00:24:00] TV and some of the, some of the footage of her? Yeah, I remember during the Civil Union, um, Act, and the huge raruraru around that, um, I saw her on TV, obviously, opposing, um, you know, Family First, and... It felt so empowering knowing that someone was really willing to speak with her whole chest about what she believed in and why this was the right thing to do, why this was a human rights issue. [00:24:30] She struck me as somebody fearless, fierce and fair. Um, how would you describe her? Yeah, absolutely fearless. I would say, um, a little controversial, even, um, within the queer community. Um, I know that, you know, she, she got challenged on her own views, um, especially in relation to non binary people. But, you know, people are a product of their time and I know that she was always really open to [00:25:00] learning, um, to accepting other people into the fold of the queer and trans, um, and gender non conforming. Fold and family. So that's really what I would say about her and when you think I mean her Lifespan and how New Zealand changed over that time. I mean, it's an incredible changes in the last 50 60 years It's an absolutely incredible change. I was born the same year that homosexuality was [00:25:30] decriminalized and growing up in that environment really really seeing the kind of casual homophobia, um, not so casual transphobia that, um, New Zealand was really entrenched in at the time. And I don't think that without people like Georgina, we would not have achieved the place where we are today. We need more people like her. It's a real tragedy that she's died so young, you know, she could have been an absolute elder statesman [00:26:00] fearless advocate for another 20 years and we're in a worse place without her. It also strikes me that actually we have to be so vigilant as well because the the rise of transphobia, particularly transphobia, at the moment is something we have to be very mindful of. We have to be so mindful of it. I think that there's a real assumption that we can't go backwards once we've achieved forward momentum or forward progress, but you only have to look at America to see that's not the case. If we don't [00:26:30] fight for our human rights, and if allies in the community don't fight for our human rights, we will go backwards. We will see an increase in transphobia. So it's on everyone to speak up, to stand out against transphobia. Um, to, to really call out just what is repainted bigotry. It's the same bigotry that queer gay people faced in the 1970s. Repackaged as fear mongering against trans people, trans [00:27:00] women. There is no place for transphobia in the queer movement. Um, you know, queer women, trans women. Lifted the movement from Stonewall onwards. People like Georgina are always on the front lines and they're the ones that we need to rally behind and around and really say they've always been here, they'll always be here and their rights are our rights. What do you think Georgina's legacy is going to be? That's [00:27:30] difficult to say. I hope her legacy is to show young queer people that we've actually always been here. That they can look back at New Zealand's history and see that Long before, you know, the media was willing to include queer people or trans people in representation, that Georgina was representation. Um, and I think that we often lose sight of our queer history. The AIDS epidemic, um, really [00:28:00] destroyed an entire generation of queer people, and so it's very easy to lose sight of our own history, the history of the movement. So... That's what I'd hope Georgina is remembered for, that she is the history, she is our movement. My name is Sam. The first time I came across Georgina was when I first moved, um, after a year I moved to New Zealand, which was, uh, around 2011, and that's when I, uh, got to know that she was the first transgender MP, um, [00:28:30] in the world, not only, not only in, in New Zealand, so that was my first awakening to Georgina. Uh, yeah, my name's Aaron, I'm born and bred Wellingtonian, uh, so, live in this kind of beautiful bubble in Wellington and for a long, long time I've known Georgina Byer through the work that she did, the fundamental work to change this country for the better, not only this country, the world as well, as a real stalwart and pillar of what beautiful change can look like. [00:29:00] When you came across here for the first time, what was your feeling? Coming from a country where, uh, I came, I came from India. So, back when I came here, um, being gay and queer was not that okay in India. So, coming to, coming here and seeing someone like, um, as Aaron mentioned, Trailblazer, and being the first one to be a transgender MP, was so awesome to see that you can be who you are, and also lead, lead by example. So that was my first impression of Georgia. [00:29:30] Being someone who was in the closet at the time, it showed me that you can be your true self. You just have to find love and hope within yourself and then reach out to those, um, who you trust and can confide in. And... You can be amazing too. Um, if you do those things and it was Georgina, I think is a real symbol for people like us, not just those of us who are out and [00:30:00] able to celebrate our identities, but those who can't. And that's also most important. I think it's really important that, um, she was also the mayor in a, in a. Really rural community of in Wairarapa, which my husband is from, um, for him growing up. In a farming community, a, um, conservative and religious community, that people like Georgina are really important for that intersectionality as well. So an incredible [00:30:30] career that spanned not just the liberal bubble in Wellington, but communities like the Wairarapa where it was also needed to. A lot of people know Georgina from what they've seen in the media and I'm just wondering, do you have any kind of comments on how the media reacted to Georgina? Yeah, I, I, I don't know if I would, um, I would say more so the sentiment around New Zealand. If you look at Georgina's career and those incredible speeches [00:31:00] that she did that, uh, came across as really, um, passionate, but also really combative. It's all for the right reasons. Sometimes we just have to scream, um, and that's about creating. positive change. So I think Georgina, uh, started healthy conversations. It took time for New Zealand public to understand that. But look where we are now. Would you, would you say that Georgina was quite media savvy in [00:31:30] terms of actually using the media as a, as a way of getting messages across? I 100 percent think that Georgina had, was an incredible comms expert to get across the messages that she needed to for people like us. Um, We talk about Georgina as a legacy, a trailblazer, a stalwart, a pillar. All of those things come from us seeing Georgina in the media, speaking to the rest of the country [00:32:00] and the rest of the world, and calling it out where it matters. Georgina's a person. Georgina had a private life. Georgina, um, probably didn't want to have to go into battle, but did because it counted and it was important. So we can be here today at Wellington Pride festivals out in the city and be proud of who we are. And we, we, we owe it to remember Georgina in this way. So what do you think Georgina's legacy will be? The legacy would be from, for me personally, I think it's [00:32:30] about being who you are and also fighting for, not only for yourself, for the rest of us, and I think that's where, um, her legacy for me, like it, that's, that's my personal view. So yeah. Like, I, I hope that for a large part of New Zealand society, that Georgina has normalized people like us. Georgina went through a different generation. And the challenges were extremely [00:33:00] tough. It was, you know, the things we got called and sometimes still get called are likened to the n word being said. That's not normal. Georgina went through all of that. Hate crimes. I hope that Georgina's legacy is that The new generations can celebrate who they are. Remember those before us like Georgina. Um, [00:33:30] to know that the fight started back then, it will continue. Um, and that we have someone looking down on us to guide us along on that journey. Roger, can you tell me the first time you met Georgina? Well it's probably, well I've always seen Georgina and known about her and read about her and seen her on TV but just very recently, um, we were at a cafe and we sat down at our table having our breakfast And Georgina sat next to us. [00:34:00] And we said, oh, hello. And tried not to be too intrusive. Of course, she was having her own breakfast. And we had a lovely chat. We were quite excited to meet her. And, um, anyway, so that was quite nice. And we, about the following week, we were at the supermarket. And who should our trolleys bump into but Georgina. And we again had a lovely little conversation. And. and about the world. And we had, you know, talked about various things that were happening. And we kept bumping into her as we went through the supermarket, as you do. And then I said, Oh, do you need a ride home? No, she had a, she had her own car, so that [00:34:30] was fine. And then that was that. So it was just a very nice, warm, friendly, and I don't think she knew who we were, but she sort of knew who we were because we were a gay couple, obviously a gay couple together, myself and my partner. And, um, it was just a very lovely, Warm sort of meeting. And she looked fabulous. You would have been aware though of Georgina for many years before that. Yeah, especially for all the campaigning she's done for civil union and marriage equality. And um, at the parade of the, we were at the never [00:35:00] enough. Oh, the Destiny Church. And we saw her out there, waving her flag and getting quite angry. So, we knew her and we admired her from afar. What was that Destiny Rally outside Parliament like? Oh, it was horrible. There were all these... There was this very angry crowd there, and we were a little crowd of support, you know, opposing this whole thing that they were on about, and supporting, um, I think it was civil union at the time, and [00:35:30] um, and we felt very much, um, the aggro of the event, um, but we all, We our chest and got very brave and stood there and stood our ground. But she was out the front. And then to see Georgina out the front. Absolutely. Yeah. Shouting at shouting Destiny Church. Shouting. Yes. That was amazing. And then of course, there's this shot, there's uh, there's all been filmed. So there's, there's a bit of film of it. You can see, you can see it on, you know, there's been broadcast and copied, so you can see it if you want to. So how would you [00:36:00] describe Georgina? What, what was her kind of personality? What, what did she come across as? Oh, very, very determined. Very, very, Very focused, um, a great wit. She was, um, very clever. I think a very clever person in the sense that she could, in a situation, she could make people laugh and relax, yet get her point across. And so I think, you know, very admired from all directions. I think from both sides of the political aisle. Just for, you know, how well she could do work. What do you think [00:36:30] her legacy will be? Well, there's legacies. There's civil union, civil, uh, same sex marriage. Prostitution Reform Act, um, which is I think was her, probably her main thing that she focused on. Um, certainly, um, supporting trans rights, supporting the trans community, um, making it, you know, a community that can be very fragile and be very, be attacked on all sides. Well, she was a tower of strength for that community, so I think, you know, that's what she'll be remembered for. She was the first trans woman that I saw [00:37:00] on television, and I love that it was in a political It was in a political capacity because it just showed how strong she was and how amazing the work that she is and how it was all highlighted because she was trans. And she didn't shy away from that. She didn't try to hide it. She was publicly, openly trans. And that really made an impact on me as a, as a small child. So, yeah. What kind of year was that? I was in primary school, I was very [00:37:30] young, and I remember it being a big deal, I remember it being a discussion at the table. I think it was when she was made mayor, um, so it was like, it was something that our family talked about as a point of difference, and I went, I find this really great, because I'm, I'm part of the trans community, so for me, I went, oh, okay, everybody's, It's out in the public. It's, it's not just me. And do you have any other memories of Georgina? I remember when she first went into Parliament and just the [00:38:00] celebration that surrounded her. I remember seeing her at different pride events all over the country growing up. Um, I've met her at Big Gay Out, um, yeah, she's just, she's an icon and she's going to be so missed in every sense. What do you think her, her legacy will be? I think that she has created a beautiful legacy for trans women in New Zealand, um, and I think that she is a beautiful role model of what you can do [00:38:30] if you are confident in yourself and you build up the right community around you. And what would you say, if you had a chance to kind of say something to Georgina now, what would that be? Just a thank you for the years of service, the work that she's done for both the country and the community, and that I hope that I'm hoping she's resting in power. And the amazing thing I think with Georgina is that not only was it a national presence, but an international presence and, and the [00:39:00] resonance. that she created with her advocacy, you know, internationally. Yeah. And it was never, it was never an issue. It was never an issue that she was fighting for. She wasn't going and solely going, I'm trans, I'm just fighting for trans rights. She was fighting for everything. And she did, she put her power into everything. And I think that's really beautiful. Can you describe... So I've only met, I only met her a couple of times, but she was really fun and vibrant, and she was the type of person that you wanted to speak to, [00:39:30] you wanted to be in her, in her bubble, you wanted to be in her space. My name is Delia O'Shea, and I'm from Intersex Aotearoa, and the first time I came across Georgina was actually, I think, at Carmen's Café. Which, um, used to be on, I can't remember the street. Uh, Vivian Street? Vivian Street, you're right, yeah. So I was probably like 19, 20, just moved to Wellington. Trying to find different like queer meccas. [00:40:00] Um, and we'd go there and have special coffees. Which, you know, had the little shot of whiskey in them. Um, And I remember just learning heaps about the trans wahine, um, you know, like the indigenous, um, strong women that, like, are a backbone of, especially of that area, that, like, held the line doing sex work, and... Um, you know, created safe spaces for other people. Um, and then, then of course it [00:40:30] was like, quick to move into times where we're talking about civil unions and the prostitution, like Reform Act, and, and um, I was always really interested in, you know, community led activism. And she was a name that was all over it, making change, um, fighting the fight against, like, you know, the, the old boys club within parliament, um, and a force to be reckoned with. And the, the [00:41:00] times that I got to be in her presence, you know, she was always so sassy and sharp witted and... Um, and intimidating in the perfect way. Like, you know, you knew you could go and say hi if you wanted to, and you'd probably have a cute laugh and chat. Um, but she just had something so dynamic about her. Like she took up all the right amount of space. So yeah, um, it's been a real loss. to see her go. Um, I think with some people like, like her, you sort of have this permanence [00:41:30] with, with her. You just forget that people are mortal. So, um, I think quite a lot of people are feeling, feeling the grief about her loss. Yeah. What was it like to see her on TV, particularly around say, prostitution reform or around the civil unions? Amazing. Like as a young person trying to understand like sex, gender, um, Like, expression, um, you know, I think we're all, we [00:42:00] all took different times and phases and, um, being exposed to different things to actually support us on our own journeys. And, um, I remember my parents, it's like, you know, people talking about or explaining about the fact that she was a trans woman. And I luckily can look back and see that that was like a positive. Um, framing that they gave, they actually did a really good job and so, um, I know that not all of those conversations would have been like that at the [00:42:30] time of her inclusion at such a high political level. Um, but yeah, seeing her lead the way and talk about sex work openly. Um, in a time where culturally we didn't really have the language for it or it was like whispered in the, in the kind of the shadier parts of conversations. Um, talks about safety for everyone, right? And talks about the right for, for anyone, no matter what their mahi is [00:43:00] to feel proud and safe and respected and They have legal support behind them, um, so yeah, I think she probably emboldened a lot of other people to stand up for, um, their own rights and, and, you know, when we came to the civil unions as well, I think, um, she was so responsible for that wave. Yeah. And when, when you think of her life, her lifespan and the changes she's scene in that time going right from the 60s right through to today. [00:43:30] Yeah, I was lucky to watch some of the documentary that explored her life recently and to see her when she first was able to live her life in her true expression as a woman in Wellington and then to think of all she achieved in her life. It makes me, um, so humbled that someone could, um, I guess, like, as Māori woman, as a trans [00:44:00] woman, fight up against all those oppressive systems and, and, and actually be the change. Um, and be brave enough and tenacious enough to, um, work within a really, like, heteronormative, patriarchal, colonial system and, yeah, make that sort of change. I hope she fully could comprehend how amazing that was, yeah, because we all definitely feel it. [00:44:30] What do you think her legacy will be? Um, like I said, I think she's sort of got, you know, I think we assumed immortality for her, so, um, I feel like that, yeah, like I said, the sharp wit, the tenacity, the determination. The non apologetic way of just being herself and not taking anyone's crap, um, yeah, I think, I think that's a [00:45:00] really powerful legacy and, um, an amazing model to young trans Māori wahine coming through, um, yeah, to, to know that there is a pathway for them as well, yeah. And I think, like you said earlier, uh, to be the change. Exactly. Like, uh, imagine, you know, seeing that huge wall of oppression in front of you and actually carving a pathway, [00:45:30] not just for yourself, but for your community. Um, and, and, you know, talk about so many taboo things. And bring them out into the open and make people laugh about it and feel comfortable and yeah She was really very clever and um and tactical in the way that she she did that I guess the first time I I think it was when I've been in Wellington for about 17 years, and I think that when I started [00:46:00] Getting involved With NZAF as a volunteer and also to be part of Tee Fana Fana And I think that's when I started getting familiar with the name of Georgina And I know that the girls at NZ Pre C obviously because it was Georgina did a lot for that bill as well. Um, so that's how I heard of her. Um, and then I think that the first time I met Georgina was at the Hui [00:46:30] Takatapui, Um, as a guest. Um, and I can't remember what date that was, but that's when I met Georgina. Yeah. Can you describe her personality? Oh, like, she was so... She was onto it, right? I mean, you know that because of her career, you know, she knew her, can I say shit? She knew her shit. She was very intelligent and I, and I knew that she came across like. [00:47:00] Fear's fear, but don't cross the line, you know what I mean? Um, and I knew that a lot of people spoke highly of her as well because of what she's done in the community here You know, so and knowing that she was in Wellington as well and obviously from Wellington here We you know, we embrace our community here as well. So she was part of that as well. Yeah Yeah, she was a wonderful woman. Wonderful. What are some of your most memorable moments of Georgina? Um, I think one of the most memorable is absolutely, without a shadow [00:47:30] of a doubt, is when they showed, um, she faced Destiny Church outside. And, um... That sticks in everybody's mind because she really went out in a dangerous situation and stood there and blatantly was very vocal about Disgusting the way that they're treat. They're talking about her people. She didn't say her said her people [00:48:00] So she was speaking about everybody else and you know, we've as you as you know, Gareth We know a lot of whakawahine here, and uh, because of that, and because of what she's done, you know, it's, she's definitely a very, very memorable, very memorable, very important part of, yeah, the trans community, for sure, without a shadow of a doubt. Her resonance, not only in Wellington, New Zealand, but also internationally, isn't it? Oh, I mean, [00:48:30] absolutely, I mean, of course, like, the first MP, the first transgender MP in the world. As, as absolutely definitely inspired people and I'm sure that she has been, she's flown around to do these talks and to have that figure and lead by example, wonderful. One of the things that I remember about Georgina is that when she was in her hospital bed. And she was on a dialysis machine and she [00:49:00] informed that people just walked across the road and ignored her. And that broke my heart and it broke her heart. A strong woman to show her feelings, to show vulnerability, because sometimes you can't show vulnerability when you are at a... High caliber as she was. And so that was definitely one of the things that sticks with me is that just people were blanking for what she did to our community. And I guess that that was other politicians [00:49:30] because it probably was because she was good at what she did. She probably fell out with them, but, you know, it's, it's sad that you get treated like that. I think one of the other key things with Georgina is she was honest. And, and actually for probably a lot of politicians, they're not necessarily that honest. She called it out. And I'll tell you, I don't think it's just a Georgina thing. I think Maori... Call it out. They see Bullshit, they call it out and I really believe that my my [00:50:00] husband's Fano are all the same My friends are all the same they know and they call it out because they ain't got no time for for bullshit You know, so she definitely called it out. She definitely rubs, you know ruffled some feathers But that's what she was meant to do and she did a lot doing that as well And she got to where she was and she changed things for you know for our community. Absolutely. Rest in peace, darling Georgia. You're in a bet. You're not in a better space. I because we want you here, but you know, [00:50:30] for what you've gone through, you, you know, relax, stare down on us and hopefully that we, people can carry that legacy on that you've worked incredibly hard for. Love you dearly darling. What do you think her legacy will be? Oh, to be strong, to never give up and to really inspire people that she ended up being a [00:51:00] mayor after not, not being long and then going into parliament. Anything is possible. It's about believing in yourself, you know, and I think that she's definitely led a way for a lot of trans girls here, um, You know, and she's done wonders, absolutely. So, uh, the, the, it's, uh, There's so much legacy that she can, So my name is Annie Jones, um, uh, [00:51:30] I identify as she, they, um, so I moved here from the UK in 2002, uh, and I suppose I first was really struck by, um, New Zealand parliament being so progressive, actually having a transgendered member of parliament and just thinking, um, yeah, like this is. Really, really amazing. Yeah, um, I guess my other memory really recently of Georgina Beyer was being at World Pride in [00:52:00] Sydney Walking down a street seeing a big stage and with a big screen and there was Georgina Beyer and talking about her legacy sat in a Scotty in Marlborough and just thinking ah, you know again, um How wonderful her legacy and her work being recognized internationally, um, as, yeah, one of the most progressive, uh, transgenders people, I guess, in the world. Yeah. Uh, I remember Georgina Beyer, um, [00:52:30] mainly through, um, her speech for the Prostitution Reform Act. Um, so I've, I've seen that, uh, delivered by her and also performed by other artists. a number of times and, um, it never loses its impact for me, so, uh, I think that's one of her most enduring legacies for me. Yeah. Mm hmm. So, I wasn't aware that those words said in Parliament have been turned into a performance. Yes. Uh, yeah, I've seen them performed at the Naked Girls Reading event, um, previously, so, um, yeah, they, they have been [00:53:00] turned into a performance and, um, read as, um, part of a, yeah, record of New Zealand's uh, Aotearoa's history. So I think that's one of her most enduring legacies for me. One of the stunning things I think you've touched on with Georgina is that not only is it a national legacy, but it's also an international legacy and reputation. Uh, yeah, like totally. Um, I can't think of anyone else who's, um, that I know of, uh, that is kind of, I guess, Shaped and changed the world, [00:53:30] um, in the way that Georgina did, um, yeah, leading from the front, I guess, and And yeah, just, um, her passing I guess was really sad and I think will resonate with a lot of people that we really want to remember her and continue her legacy, um, and think of ways that we can positively do that. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I guess my hope is that Georgina's, uh, legacy, um, paves the way for a lot of other, uh, trans and gender diverse politicians. Um, and. [00:54:00] Um, yeah, just that her legacy will pave the way for others, which I think she's already done. Yeah. Did Georgina impact on your lives in any way? And if so, how? Probably not directly, but I guess, um, I would just say like just having that visibility of someone, um, in the community who's actually transcending into Um, local government and then also international government. I think at the time when I first came to New Zealand in 2002, [00:54:30] um, there weren't that many Rainbow members of Parliament. And so obviously now there are quite a lot, but, um, you know, she was really a starting point. So I guess just having a role model to kind of show what's possible, uh, in a very kind of positive way. Um, I think that's impactful, um, for any member in the Rainbow community. Yeah. Um, yeah, I work in the area of gender affirming voice, so I'm a speech and language therapist. I'm working in the area of gender affirming voice and, um, a lot of the people who I [00:55:00] meet, um, cite Georgina as an example of, uh, who they want to sound like and the, the mana that they want to project, uh, when they are speaking, so I think that's how she's made the most direct impact on my life, yeah. And what about her legacy? What will her legacy be, do you think? I guess she'll probably just go down in rainbow history, and will probably be always someone, um, that, whose, whose name will resonate with the rainbow community, and I suspect will be continuing to see, [00:55:30] um, video footage of her, hopefully, at different events, um, yeah, as we move into the future. That would be really cool. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, just more out rainbow politicians. Um, I think we'll be here in during legacy. I hope. Yeah. Um, my name's Don Raythel. Um, I, I was not, I didn't know Georgina. Um, I'd seen Georgina, uh, in the media a few times. Um, I just have one, one memory. [00:56:00] Um, and I, it's a very, I think a very cute, uh, anecdote. I used to live in Evans Bay Parade here in Wellington. And I enjoyed crossing the road every now and then and go down on the beach. It was a rather rough, um, rocky beach there. And, um, I would wander around. It was pleasant. top place to spend an hour or two and I looked up onto the the footpath and there was a man running past a jogger in very, [00:56:30] very brief, uh, shorts, short shorts and, uh, runners, shoes and nothing else and he was extremely buff. Very, very hot guy. He was just jogging past and I... Just watched him for a while and then I just watched him run up to the corner and a car came down, um, driving towards him and started harping the, you know, harping the horn as, as [00:57:00] generally, um, happens when men do it when they see an attractive woman. And I thought, oh, that's... That's, that's interesting, that's cute. And then the car came towards me, and it was Georgina. It was Georgina driving around the bays, just enjoying the view. And I thought, ah, that kind of fits with her reputation, I think. That's my sole memory, but I thought I'd share that one. Well, I actually, I, [00:57:30] I arrived in New Zealand at the beginning of 1998, and I'm fairly sure I knew of her already, because I followed the gay press in Britain, and, uh, gay press in general is much better at doing international news. So, and I must, and I met her up on a number of occasions, but I can't remember the first one. I bought her books, which came out the next year. change for the better. And, uh, then went to a gay dad's meeting, [00:58:00] which is a bit spurious because I'm not one, but never mind, um, in Carterton and she turned up and there's the signature in the book and you see by then she had become, she'd become, she'd become the MP. Um, the other time I... I remember seeing her when she came out and faced Brian Tamaki's mob, um, in his dreadful Enough is Enough, um, uh, rally, which ensured [00:58:30] the passing of the Civil Union, of the Civil Union Bill. The interesting thing there was that it was the first time, uh, that, that I'd ever seen her deadnamed or misgendered, and that came as a surprise. Can you describe, um, what Georgina was like at that Destiny Church rally? Fearsome. She just came out and yelled at them. [00:59:00] So, so, um... Um, and none of the, she was the only MP that did. All the other, all the rest of the MPs went to ground very, very quickly. Because there was a big, there was a counter demonstration as well. And I know that several members of the, of the GAP board, Rainbow Wellington board, I was actually working in Parliament at the time, so, um, in the, in the library. So we all came out on the, onto the terrace in front of the library and got a, got a sort of good view of [00:59:30] it all. What was the feeling for yourself knowing that, uh, Georgina had your back, that, you know, there was somebody out there? Literally facing people down. Oh, well, yes. But one wasn't surprised. She did things like that. And now I'm re reading the book to do a tribute in the next Capote Gay. It's not surprising. She's been very clear. And it wasn't surprising because she's been quite clear that she, uh, that she does not take a shy. That she [01:00:00] did not take a shy or bashful. I think it was so sad that she became so ill. Uh, last time I saw her, I thought she was better. She'd had the, uh, it was at an out in the, out in the park fair, and she was sitting there looking all bright, having had the, having had a kidney transplant. What do you think Georgina's legacy is going to be? Ah. I'm, I'm pleased that sort of, uh, in [01:00:30] her, one thing about her death is it's reawakened interest in her, you know. I can't imagine any other member of our, of our, um, communities being the headline news on the, on TVNZ like her death was. So, obviously that legacy is still. Sort of, uh, is, is still very strong, and we, and we desperately need it now, with trans, with, with transgender [01:01:00] people being under such fierce attack. Not so much here at the moment, thank goodness, but we can so easily be polluted by American and British, and, and British ideas. Kia ora, my name is Ruth and the first time I came across Georgina was actually in our high school history class. So yeah, we were learning about Stonewall, we were learning about the history of Pride and then we turned to, yeah, incredible advocates within New Zealand and leaders in that area. So that was the first time that I heard of her, yeah. [01:01:30] What was it like when you came across somebody locally that was being such an advocate? It was incredible, yeah. I think for a lot of us it was opening our eyes that this does happen in Aotearoa, New Zealand. I think we thought a lot of it was overseas, but to see somebody, yeah, in New Zealand leading the way, and, yeah, so fiercely advocating was incredible and a huge inspiration, I think, for all of us. And I came across her when she was involved in Parliament. My name's Christine and also then she went on into the Wairarapa and she did [01:02:00] some outstanding things both on a national level and at the community level and um, I just learned before that there's a documentary and I think I'll look out for that Georgie girl. She was an amazing, an amazing woman. Yeah. Can you describe her personality when you saw her on TV? What, what was she like? Yeah, I've just been recently watching a lot of clips back, but I would say fearless, just incredible, [01:02:30] quite funny as well, and yeah, I think really warm and open and didn't, was talking about really serious issues, but did it in a way that everybody could be involved and learn about them. And people could relate to her. Yeah, she didn't, she didn't mind saying what she thought. And she was quite strident. But she got people on side and I, I think she was a tremendous advocate. Just going back to school when you first came across Georgina, how was [01:03:00] that, how did the class respond to those kind of local activists? Uh, really good. I think it, it gave a bit of a blueprint for what could be done in Aotearoa and for her to be the first. in the world. That was so cool that a pioneer came from New Zealand for that so yeah, we just kind of realised like, oh, this happens all around us in our communities and we should be a part of that as well if we want change, yeah. What do you think her legacy will be? She's an outstanding role model. Yeah, and I think that straight uppness [01:03:30] and standing up for your community so selflessly, and putting yourself out there. Yeah, I think that will be a huge example for, for a lot of people. Oh, my name's Leliel Tritho and I'm a trans woman living in Wellington, New Zealand. And the first time I became aware of Georgina was actually when she was running for Parliament as the first openly trans MP. At the time I was in the closet and she was just a huge inspiration to me to say, Hey, there are trans women out [01:04:00] there. We can actually do anything we want to do. She's been a role model of mine forever and it's just. Terrible. Devastating to hear of her loss. Can you describe her personality? I never met her very much but I saw her personality. Just really so full full of life. So many awesome stories to tell. Absolutely lovely person to get to meet and know. And I think just, uh, the honesty which really gets me and [01:04:30] The fearlessness and, and also the advocacy as well. The fearlessness, it seems to be a thing that happens a lot with trans women. But yes, it was hugely inspiring. But, if you're not fearless, you don't come out. You just have to be, and that, I mean, I'm going to be a bit of a rant here, but I think that is almost a problem because we shouldn't have to be fearless to be ourselves. We should be able to be ourselves without fear. Fear. Without need for fear. [01:05:00] I think one of the big things with Georgina as well was that it was very much, judge me on what I do. Yes. You know, judge me on, on my actions. Absolutely. And it was just hugely inspiring and awesome to see her, and so cool to see she actually made it into Parliament and stayed there for quite some time. That was just really, really awesome. Do you have a favourite Georgina moment? Um, there's so many of them I'm kind of mind blanking to choose one at the moment. [01:05:30] But the thing that really does still stick out as the biggest thing was just the sheer courage it took to stand up and run. Especially running in the wire wrapper at that time is amazing. What do you think her legacy will be? I think she leaves a really strong legacy, both for getting into parliament, her work in the councils, and her work as an activist and a speaker after leaving parliament. All of that's going to leave a huge legacy, huge [01:06:00] shoes for us to fill, stepping up for trans women everywhere. Yes, because it wasn't just in New Zealand, was it? It was international. Absolutely everywhere. She stood up for all trans women and yeah, I, it hurt hearing that she'd passed. It just, I mean, shocking. Not very surprising, unfortunately, but shocking and it hurt and we're gonna miss her. She will be missed. When was the [01:06:30] first time you came across Georgina? I was just trying to think about when the first time was, but the biggest memory, and I was just talking about this with a friend last night, was at the Civil Union Bill protest at Parliament in 2004, and um, there were, you know, kind of 5, 000 Destiny Church people in their black t shirts shouting at us. you know, threatening us with violence. And, and, um, she strode out onto the forecourt and just made this amazing [01:07:00] speech, you know, to them, a challenge to them. And it was so powerful. Um, yeah, we were talking about what an impact she had then because it... It felt like, um, Labor had stepped back a little bit because they were worried about how it was going to go. And there was her going out and being so strong and so brave, uh, in a very scary situation. Can you describe what that situation was like? Because as you say, there was like thousands of Destiny Church supporters. [01:07:30] In terms of people that were, um, supporting civil unions or just standing up for rainbow communities, like, how many people were there? Um, there... There were a few hundred of us. Um, I know that the, the parliament ground was pretty full, and they said they had a lot more than they did. But it, it was, it was very scary. So, they were getting right up in our face. They were wearing black. They were, um, you know, putting their fists in the air in a way that was [01:08:00] very reminiscent of, of fascist Germany. And I I was running Unique at the time, and I was worried about the safety of, um, our, our group who were there, and then all these other people who were invited along to join us as well. Um, and, and yeah, they were, they were threatening to, like, they threatened to throw me off the wall at Parliament, um, they were shoving us around, getting right up on our faces. It was pretty horrendous. And we were worried about the safety of people in town after the event as well. And [01:08:30] what was it like then to see Georgina come down the steps of parliament and, and just kind of eyeball them? Yeah, it, it was amazing to watch, um, and to, to see their reaction as well. Like they did seem a bit concerned about, about this force of nature. Um, coming, coming across the forecourt at them, yeah. So, how, how would you describe her? Like, I mean, you've said force of nature, which I think is a, is a, is a, a, a wonderful description, but what, what are some other words that [01:09:00] would describe Georgina? Um, I think of her as a complicated human. Um, There was all these amazing things that she did. Um, in terms of firsts, you know, first, um, out trans, um, mayor and member of parliament. And getting elected in a very conservative. part of the world in, um, the Wairarapa. Um, [01:09:30] and all, yeah, all the activism that she did. But it, but it's also complicated by, she had a hard life. And, as with anybody who has a hard life, um, it affects the way that you interact with people. And, yeah, I think some people need to cut her some more slack for that. Do you have any other memorable Georgina moments? Oh, the most recent one that I saw her. She didn't look very well, and um, [01:10:00] I told her how amazing she was, and she seemed, She seemed surprised that people still care, and I thought that was sad. Like, yeah, we don't necessarily look after people very well. What do you think her legacy will be? Oh, all the [01:10:30] firsts for sure. Yeah, so, yeah, first out trans mayor, first out trans MP in the world. Um, I hope people remember that, that speech at Parliament to Disney Church. Yeah. So, I can't remember if Georgita was there because I cooked myself a little bit too hard. It was, it was at Carmen's Farewell Ball. The date was... I'm pretty sure it was the 24th of February, 1988, it was held at [01:11:00] the Majestic Cabaret. And I was staying, I'd just arrived off a train from Gisborne, and I was staying with Denelda, who was um, one of the, one of our fabulous community members, who was working at The Cave at the time, um, it was Cuba, up in Cuba Street, I think it's called the San Fran Bathhouse or something now. Anyway, and uh, we went to Carmen's Farewell Ball, and I'm pretty sure Georgina was, there, but I was a little bit caught to remember too many party pills. So when was the first time you, you can actually remember Georgina? [01:11:30] I think I can. The first time I can remember Georgina was when she was on the steps of parliament and just being her fabulous self, being powerful and sorry, it's a bit moving, but being powerful and strong and visible. And she was like one of the people who, who was, and um, just an extraordinary experience of pride and uh, and fearlessness, yeah. And she was, she was always fearless and uh, present [01:12:00] and true to herself, which was wonderful. Was that during the Enough is Enough rally at Parliament? I think it was that, that was an absolutely terrifying day, I've got to say. We were totally surrounded by this mob that came up the hill. They came up the street and then came and just surrounded us and they were screaming at us across the barricades and the barricades were nothing much, they were quite flimsy and uh, yeah, terrifying. But she, you know, she was just fearless. [01:12:30] What was that feeling like when you saw her coming out of parliament and staring down? So, um, I didn't feel so powerful within myself, especially when we were so close to them physically. But having her come down as a member, uh, who, um, who carried the mana of the house, and then coming there and... fronting them and saying, we don't care what you think, you horrible enough is enough people. And we will, um, we're just here and living [01:13:00] our best lives. Yeah. She was just so wonderful and powerful. Yeah. How would you describe her personality? She was, um, fairly outgoing, one would have to say, and, and fearless. She was a bit, um, she was pretty direct. She didn't suffer fools. And if she took, thought you were being a wanker, she'd tell ya. Well, she, you know, she, she thought whatever. You would definitely hear it. I remember the last memory I had of Georgina was in the baggage carousel. We'd both come [01:13:30] in from a plane from Sydney and she was at the baggage carousel picking up her, her bags as well and having a, a conversation and she was very strident of her opinions. It was after she'd left the Labour Party and she was um, I felt she was pretty hurt and pretty upset from the experience. But she was no, no less fearless in her, uh, perspective, one would have to say. What do you think, uh, Georgina's legacy is going to be? [01:14:00] Oh my goodness, it's a worldwide legacy. She was, um, oh goodness, what would you say, I mean, you could say... Say, love conquers all seems a bit trite, but I mean, she was just so, uh, powerful and so willing to be herself. And I, I mean, for trans community, people all over the world, world must have seen her and seen how much we loved her and it hopefully it gives them, um, a sense of [01:14:30] what's possible for them. You know, as a young gay man growing up and knowing that the Netherlands was a safe place for me, I always thought that, you know, if it gets really bad here in New Zealand at my school, at Gisborne Boys High School, at least I can go to the Netherlands and it will be okay. So hopefully for the trans community, Georgina and her place and the love that we held her, the esteem, the respect and the care that we had for her, hopefully that says to other trans community members all over the world that There's [01:15:00] a place in New Zealand for you, even if it's not where you're growing up now. Well, but can you describe for me the first time you met or were aware of Georgina Beyer? In a conversation in Potaururu, where a couple of people were talking about, um, a tranny. Down country, who was running a town. And, with all that language, they were actually respectful. And [01:15:30] it made me think about how people misjudge small communities. And in fact, small communities embrace talent, because you have to embrace talent to survive. And, good on Carterton, you know? And, uh, I think the thing that was so important, although we hold up the big picture of Georgina and her life, and that is important, but it actually tells us a story of a nation. It tells us a story of our culture, [01:16:00] that we too easily replace our ideas of small towns with bigger tree. And, and backwardness, and yet it was small towns and the people that they value who led the world in this case, who gives this nation and the world their first transgendered politician at such a level. That's a community, that's a family, and all the people who know that family and the people who work there. With Georgina, that's a wonderful thing. This is bigger than an individual. Can you describe [01:16:30] Georgina's personality? She, uh, a film I did was, um, got some awards in a festival and she was speaking there. So, so my limited exposure to her was she was somebody who was very at home with a microphone. She was very at home being central stage. And she fucking loved it. And good job. Good job. You know, so she, she was no, she was no wilting violet, [01:17:00] but behind that there was sweat and rolled up sleeves. And that's, I don't mind if someone likes the limelight, if they're fine to be behind there doing the marquee. But I also think that the limelight wasn't necessarily about Georgina. It was, she actually used that platform to, um, move forward issues, didn't she? She wasn't, she wasn't a consuming ego. She was good, she liked that space, but she liked that space because that was the space she was called to [01:17:30] be into. That was her natural space, and so she used her talents in that space. So some people are gifted with public address. Some people are gifted to move a room. She had that, and we're better off because she exercised that. But she never elbowed anybody out of the road to get there. So, that's a good thing. What do you think her legacy will be? I hope it's more than just a number. I think her... I mean, the legacy will [01:18:00] go... People will talk about first and how important, but actually... Again, I would come back to her legacy is about... How small communities can grow great leaders and how leadership is something more than celebrity. Leadership is about being prepared to work wherever change is needed. And so the legacy will be for us as a nation, less [01:18:30] about an individual and more about a kind of person and a kind of community. Who formed a very productive relationship. Um, I first remember hearing of Georgina Beyer when, um, Uh, when she stood for, uh, for Parliament, I think it was. And, um, just, oh no, actually it was when the council over in, in the Wairarapa, I think. Was that first? Yeah. So, I remember seeing her name come through and thinking that my, my [01:19:00] sister and my, um, my parents would definitely not vote for her because they were all national voters. This is going online, isn't it? But they did, they did vote for her. And I think they just saw what a genuine person she was and how good she would be for the community, yeah. So, um, and then to see her go through to, um, being in Parliament was just amazing, yeah. And, um, I'm just in awe of everything, um, that she did. Particularly standing up for, um, for, um, the Prostitutes Collective, I think, as well, um, and [01:19:30] in fact we had the opportunity recently to go down to the Rainbow Room at Parliament and it was really lovely to see her photo up there and I was just really sad to hear that she had passed away, so, yeah. How would you describe Georgina's personality, do you think? Oh, kind of cheeky is what I remember hearing and, um, and, um, one thing that I read this week that I'd forgotten was that, you know, the interactions with her in Parliament were always people sat up and listened and, um, she was a really great [01:20:00] debater in Parliament, yeah. Yeah. What do you think her legacy will be? Well, I hope that it will encourage more people to stand for Parliament and to, I mean, I, We were just talking in another context last week about how, you know, some of the better things that are happening for the trans community in, uh, in Europe. This is the ILGA report into Europe and, um, Central Asia. Um, and, um, but also some of the, you know, the really negative harassment that's going on. And I [01:20:30] think we need more people to stand up and kind of, uh, basically be part of those kind of institutions. institutions that are making rules for, you know, for how our communities should continue just so that we don't end up having that harassment or even those legislative, um, kind of, uh, limitations that are happening all around the world at the moment. So I think, yeah, definitely we need more trans in Parliament. So my name's Tony and I, my first interaction with Georgina was when I was 16 years old in [01:21:00] Alfies, um, in Auckland. 1986, and she was performing on stage. Yeah, incredible to, for me for the first time, to see someone in that environment like that. As someone that had just come out, you know. Can you describe, um, her performance? For a, a newly out 16 year old kid, I'd never seen anything like it, it was mind blowing. You know, there was a whole crew of them and she was part of it, and then to, you know, to watch her journey from showgirl to, you know, being in Parliament, it's just been [01:21:30] incredible, you know. What has it been like watching her as she's kind of done that journey through kind of being Mayor of Carterton and then Parliament? I think it's an inspiration to our community that anything's possible, you know, no matter what, anything's possible as long as you put your mind to it. It's all I can say is it's inspirational really. Can you describe her personality? I never actually personally met her, I only saw her through media. Um, for me I think she was just fearless. [01:22:00] You know, she's broke through all these barriers and she wasn't afraid to be fearless about that. And just to be herself. Yeah. Yeah, which is part of being, you know, which is part of the rainbow community is being yourself and that's being fearless, you know. What do you think her legacy will be? I hope that her legacy is going to be around inspiration, being fearless, being who you want to be and being loud and proud about it on a global level. Yeah. Let's do it. Yeah, [01:22:30] right. Um, so my name's Robin, um, and the first time I, oh, we're from gender minorities Aotearoa. Um, and the first time I was aware of, uh, Georgina is when I was probably, um, about 10 years old, living in the Wairarapa, and she was the mayor of Carterton. Yeah, so, yeah. And what was that feeling like when you saw that she was mayor of Carterton? Well, I think... Back in the, I was just like a, a, a baby [01:23:00] queer, I wasn't even aware of my own queerness. But like, I think she was the I knew. Like, I was, I, I think my mum explained the concept to me, and I was like, That's cool, but like, that was it really. Yeah. I think the first time was when I stumbled upon, uh, Georgie Girl, the documentary. Um, and I guess that was the first, like, good, um, experience to, like, learn heaps about her. And it was, like, [01:23:30] yeah, it was, like, amazing. Can you describe Georgina's personality? Oh my goodness, um... She's just so, like, iconic and statuesque. I don't know, it's something, oh, I don't know. Um, she's just so cool and, like, collected and, like, amazing. Like, she had this, it wasn't, it was, like, kind of, like, an energy that was, kind of, like, everyone's auntie, but, like, the cool auntie, like. Like, yeah, I've [01:24:00] only met her a couple of times, but like, every time she was just so, she was like, Hello! How are you? And I was just like, like, yeah, it felt like she, like, yeah, was somebody you could just, like... Have a cool conversation with, and like, yeah. Did she have much to do with gender minorities out here at all? Um, no, no, not really. No. But it was really cool that her, um, her friends and family donated her clothes to us after she passed. But [01:24:30] like, yeah, so, um, she had us in mind, obviously, yeah. So... What do you think Georgina's legacy will be? Oh, goodness. Well, I think she's like, made such a lasting impression on so many people, um, in Aotearoa. Especially like, trans people, I think, of like... And I remember, I remember watching this, um, interview, I think, that she did where she, um... [01:25:00] was expressing her, like, gratitude for being able to, like, live, like, as, like, a participating citizen in this country, like, and even just, like, her being grateful to be, like, able to just exist, I think is, like, a huge thing as well, like, cause I think, when I was reading that, I think that really stood out to me, being able to just, like, be yourself. In this country, her being like, [01:25:30] trans and visible and public and loved, I think is like, crazy. Yeah. Um, I definitely think that we need more trans politicians and um, and that like, her being the first, I mean in the world, like she was the first, like, first mayor of, Like, a country, like, of, of, of, of, like, yeah, she was the first trans mayor, she was the first trans politician, and I think we need to continue that, especially with, like, the way the world's going, like, like, in the [01:26:00] states, how it's all, kind of, the, turning into a weird, fascist, anti trans, place, and like, I think New Zealand needs to like, pave the way by having, yeah, trans people at the forefront and making, you know, policy and all that good stuff, so yeah. Particularly when you consider that it was 25 years ago next year that, that Georgina was Member of Parliament, and you think, well, who's the next, who's the next... Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, and I think [01:26:30] that's, it's crazy, like, she was so, like, ahead of her time, like, I mean, like, people would be up in arms about it if this was happening in, like, the UK or the States, like, we're like, oh, we're gonna speak out against, like, you know, like, with Eddie Izzard in the, in the, in the UK, like, Even her own Labour, like, government were like, against her just being trans. Like, yeah. But I think New Zealand had this huge love and support for Georgina [01:27:00] that, um, we wouldn't see anywhere else in the world.

IRN: 3588
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093099
TITLE: And/Or - Celebrating Queer Ethnic Identities
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ana Jurado; Chinwe Akomah; Gina Dao-McLay; Jahla Lawrence; Vinod Bal; Vivian Lyngdoh
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Adhikaar Aotearoa; Africa; Ana Jurado; Aotearoa New Zealand; Ballroom community; Black Lives Matter (BLM); Black Trans Lives Matter; COVID-19 face mask; Chinwe Akomah; Gina Dao-McLay; India; Jahla Lawrence; Khasi tribe; Mexico; Michael Fowler Centre; Ngāruawāhia; Nicaragua; Nigeria; Out in the City (Wellington); Porirua; Tiriti o Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi; Trinidad; United Kingdom; Vinod Bal; Vivian Lyngdoh; Wellington; Wellington Pride Festival; Wellington Pride Festival (2023); activism; marginalisation; marginalised communities; privilege; racism
DATE: 18 March 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Michael Fowler Centre, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the panel discussion held during Out in the City at the Michael Fowler Centre on 18 March 2023. Embodying Wellington Pride Festival's 2023 theme of 'Ka Mau, Ka Muri', the panel aims to bring to life the voices often left out of history. Panelists discuss what it means to be proudly ethnic and queer in a world where they are often forced to choose one. A special thanks to the organisers and participants for allowing this to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: October 2023
TEXT: Kia ora. Can everybody hear me okay? Fantastic. Thumbs up from the back. So tēnā koutou katoa. My name is Jala and I am going to be your facilitator for today. We are very excited to be having this panel. Um, I'm going to do a bit of a welcome, a karakia, talk a little bit about how we're going to run today. Um, and then I will pass over to our lovely panelists to introduce themselves. [00:00:30] We're going to take A really nice, big, long time to do Whakawhanaungatanga and talk about these people so they can share who they are with you. And also so that we can ground ourselves after a very hectic morning of running this ship. Um, before we move into talking about the content of today. So I will open. [00:01:00] So just a couple of, I guess, housekeeping for how we would like to hold this. space. Um, if our panelists or if anyone from the audience would like to discuss anything that has sensitive material, please trigger warning before you raise it as an option for people to choose to not, um, engage with that material. Um, that's really [00:01:30] important to keep us safe and to keep you safe as well. Keep in mind that for some of our panelists, English is their second language. And so that articulation and pace is really important, um, as well as for our interpreters. Um, if you are asking questions, keep in mind that nobody up here is entitled to answer any of them. The same way that we, when we ask questions of each other, everyone is always free to not answer anything for any reason that they don't have to share. Um, we are encouraging everyone today to wear [00:02:00] masks. So if you have a mask, please wear it. Um, and for everyone to please, on the panel, speak into the mic. I just realized that I wasn't doing that. Just please speak into the mic so that everyone and our interpreters... can hear clearly. If we are not doing that, or if we are speaking too fast, feel free to let us know. Okay, goodbye. Cool, all right. Um, so I am going to start off by letting all of our panelists [00:02:30] introduce themselves and then I will introduce myself last. And we have not established an order. Would anyone like to volunteer to start? Okay, all right. I don't know what to say. Namaste. I'm talking in English. Uh, AKA to the Cai Hills in Northeast India. I'm from a tribe up there. Um, and we follow the matrilineal tribe, uh, matrilineal culture. So everything comes from the feminine side of, [00:03:00] um, of my life. Um, so I was saying the, uh, we had a one out this morning, so I'm incredibly nice to my sister because she inherits everything in the house, so I have to be nice to her. Um, um, a little bit about me. I'm a recent migrant here. Uh, Well, I just became a citizen, so of being in Aotearoa, specifically in Poneke, I sit as the co chair of [00:03:30] Weldon Pride. The importance, thank you, the importance of me becoming co chair three years ago was the lack of people who looked like me in those positions of power. So I stepped up, much to my dismay. But, um... Um, what I have found through being co chair is the, um, the inherent racism that comes with pride. Um, and hence, um, our, you know, our co papa with pride at the moment is to create spaces [00:04:00] for black, brown, indigenous people of color to see themselves more. And it's going to take a long time. We do understand that completely, but, um, and challenging, challenging conversations are going to come with that. Um, but so far it's been. great to see Ranga Tahi come up to us, especially to Talia and I, and see, it's so great to see two people of color leading this, and that's a gift that we are giving, you know, to, to Ranga Tahi, which is a gift that I wanted as a child as well. Um, what [00:04:30] else did I say? . So Vivian Ling dot Vivian passing at ling dot mal pls by name, Ling Pl is my surname. Roughly translates to the custodians of the village Maplang. Um, yeah, so I also come from a, my last name is also related to 12 different tribes. So we're incredibly single in our tribe. Because we can't get married to any of them. Um, but um. What else was there? Uh, I also sit in the, I work for , which is the [00:05:00] Public Service Commission in the diversity inclusion team. And within that team as well, I'm one of the only brand faces in those, in that team, considering it is that diversity and inclusion, um, you know, uh, leadership for the entire public service and the amount of it's 80% parking had in there. Um, so it's hugely triggering to be in these positions because you want to be in there to create change, but it comes with. The microaggressions and the racism as well. But, um, for us to create change, unfortunately, we have to be in [00:05:30] these positions. So that Rangatahi may not fight so hard. You know, we're picking up the tono from our, uh, from our leaders from the past, like Dutri Nabai, like Carmen Rupe, like Mahashifi Johnson, and all these beautiful whakawahine. Um, so, whatever we do, whatever I do, is to, um, ensure that, um, Ensure that, um, yeah, Rangzahi, you know, work as hard. Um, but kia ora koutou katoa. Thank you so much for having me. [00:06:00] Kia ora, thanks for standing, but I'm gonna sit for this one. Um, kia ora koutou, my name's Gina Dalmaclay, um, my pronouns are they, them. Um, I live in Porirua, so just a bit of a 20 minute train ride I take every day to come into town. Um, and yeah, I'm a... I'm a young queer person, um, I've been a student for a little while, but taking a little gap year this year, um, as I'm going to be running for Parliament in the upcoming election. Um, thanks James, thanks James. Um, so yeah, kind of politics has always been something that, uh, has interested me, kind [00:06:30] of as like a, Oh, wow, there's this thing called global warming, and like, I guess it sounds kind of bad. Oh, it's like climate change, and people have been talking about this for 30 years, maybe we should do something about it. Um, and so kind of through those, uh, spaces came into, yeah, interest into politics and also representation. Um, at first thinking about, like, oh, it would be really great to have, like, a person of color in that room, or a brown person in that room. Um, and then realizing actually it's not just about having us at the table, but ensuring that the system around us, um, changes and actually honors. [00:07:00] Like, A, you can turn into a Waitangi here in Aotearoa, but also the intersections of all of our identities as well. Um, so I come from Vietnamese and Pākehā whakapapa. Um, my mum came to Aotearoa in the late 90s, um, kind of for that better life, um, to be able to send money back home to our family in Vietnam. Um, and then my dad, he has got Scottish and Irish and English whakapapa and came to Aotearoa, or his family came to Aotearoa, um, particularly based in Waitaha, in Canterbury, and then eventually here in [00:07:30] Wellington. Um, and I kind of grew up as an only child out in Porirua, um, and then, uh, kind of came into my understanding of, like, queerness and robo identity, um, later in high school until I decided to join different groups, um, different urupu who were interested in some of the similar things I did, um, was interested in, and then realised that actually, in order to make these spaces even more inclusive, diverse, and actually, you know, make the changes that we need to see here in Aotearoa, um, it's time for some of us to step up and lead [00:08:00] them as well. Hola, my name, can you hear me? Yes? Okay. My name is Anna. I'm from Mexico. Maybe, I hope. Some of you follow me on Instagram as lifeoflilith. I am an illustrator and a lot of my work is very centered around political subjects or like basically, I'm sad, look at me. So, um, and I'm going to talk about that more later. Um, uh, as I said, I'm Mexican. I came here [00:08:30] three years ago. Um, as background of who I am, uh, I grew up in Mexico, but my mom, my mom is Nicaraguan. My dad is Mexican. My mom, I think this is relevant to how I grew up, my mom came to Mexico fleeing from the civil war in Nicaragua. And, um, kind of doing the same by having come here. Um, what else? I am 27 years old. I am disabled, not all, well, via neurodivergence, and also physically disabled. [00:09:00] So, that's why I have a little cane here. Hmm, what else, what else? I do not mind any pronouns. As long as you're not a dick, I don't, I don't really care. Um, yeah, I think that's all for now. I'm from Chinwe. I'm from Nigeria. I'm from Iwote. I'm Chinwe, um, I am from Nigeria, [00:09:30] Nigeria, that's my Fakapapa. My tribe is the Igbo tribe, um, but I was born in the UK and I moved... To, uh, almost ten years ago, but more recently to Poneke, like, three, almost three years ago. Um, what do I want to say? I've, I've only, I guess it's only since I moved here that I've, even, that I've started exploring, or even acknowledging my queerness. Uh, and that was actually during, funny enough, during [00:10:00] BLM, um, when there were a whole bunch of protests going around, going around across the country, and obviously overseas, but most of the protests for BLM were about, like, some black lives, and even though black trans people. Particularly black trans women are disproportionately killed, um, there was no conversation, no talk, no acknowledgement of that, nor what they have, um, suffered to give us our rights to be here. And so I ran the only Black Trans Lives Matter march in, um, El [00:10:30] Pibara, which upsets me, but I'm also proud, but I was also hoping Tamaki would follow suit, but they didn't. They censored it on the, um, the cis men and, um, Some, some women. Anywho, um, I work at government, unfortunately, um, but I'm working on anti racism policy, but in a very, very, very, very, very white, very, very privileged agency, so I'm working on anti racist policy in a racist institution. And then I also, like [00:11:00] everybody else here, suffer racism in the queer community, so I am, I am currently actually, I think, in a heightened sense of trauma, which I found out from my therapist recently. So, this, um, panel is, like, fortuitous, or, oh, I didn't say it's fortuitous, so I can actually be in one. Um, discussing this, um, yeah, but I'm just, yes, that's, that's me. I'm really grateful to be here. And, um, I really hope that you'll get something out of this vocado. Um, and [00:11:30] that you can go away and have more conversations among your peers. Uh, and as yourselves as allies, and how you support us, and also your whānau and your friends, who are also colour. Kia ora. koutou, uh, ko Vinod tōku ingoa. My name is Vinod, I go by Vinny. Um, first and foremost, I'm really just keen to say that I'm really humbled to be on such an amazing panel with such amazing individuals. Um, In, in [00:12:00] terms of myself, I, um, whakapapa to the north of India and, um, south pa, south Pakistan in this region called Punjab. Um, so my whanau, um, migrated to Arter, um, in 1917. Um, so 105 years ago, my. Great great grandfather made that move so he could escape the shackles of the Hindu caste system that relegated him to a sub life of [00:12:30] subclass of human existence human rights violations characterized the totality of his life, so There's, there's that. Um, in terms of me personally, um, so I use he him pronouns. Um, I grew up in a small town ten minutes outside of Hamilton called Ngaruawahia. Um, so, great place, um, and yeah, I, I studied there. Um, my family's still there, but I [00:13:00] moved down to Pōneke I think two years ago. Um, to start, um, start a new role down here. Um, I identify as a, as a gay cisgender male. I'm endosex, um, and many identities, um, hold privilege there. Um, and I guess... The, um, sort of the positionality that I hold within the community, I guess, is, um, I run an organisation called Adikar [00:13:30] Aotearoa. Um, so some of you guys may have heard of us, but, um, we're an organisation for and by LGBT people of colour. Um, mostly from South Asia, because that's, that's where I'm, I'm from. Um, so... Yeah, we started two years ago and really, um, have tried to visibilize an invisible community, um, through, um, yeah, through, through events, through, um, academia, through research, through law and [00:14:00] policy. Um, that's sort of where I come from, um, and, and speak to using the law and policy as service tools, service tools for, um, marginalised communities. So, yeah, that's me. Lovely to meet you all. Kia ora. How's everyone doing volume wise? Can, are we good? Can everyone hear? Okay, just keep that in line with the microphone. Thank you. So, kia ora. My name's Jala. Uh, I use she, they pronouns. [00:14:30] I... I have a really interesting, fun fucker popper of coming from all sorts of places. So, um, my dad is a Vietnamese refugee, came here as a child in the late 70s. Um, and... My mother, who is in the room, um, her father is Afro Caribbean from Trinidad, and her mother is Pākehā, so holding lots of different spaces, um, and different identities, and, and different colours, and all that kind of thing. Um, and [00:15:00] I grew up in Aotearoa, mostly in very, very Pākehā areas, which has been really delightful. Um, and... Yeah, and so, as somebody who holds so many different types of identities, and, you know, I am also queer and I have lots of other kinds of identities, this kind of discussion is so interesting to me as somebody who's always trying to figure out how much of certain things I am in certain spaces and how much I can represent and how much I have to keep to myself. [00:15:30] Um, and how to... Navigate that duty that we often have to be with that representation for people who are like us while also wanting to keep ourselves safe. So, that's really fascinating to me. I'm also a sexual violence prevention specialist. Um, that is what I do for Mahi. And, of course, that is something that, you know, this kind of conversation comes up a lot in those spaces as well. Something that I am very passionate about, and I am very, very blessed to be here with these lovely, [00:16:00] lovely people to have this conversation today. I'm keeping an eye on time, um, so, because to keep this space safe, I'm gonna just get our people to close the doors now and not let anyone else in. Um, if anyone needs seats, there's a couple more down the front here and kind of in the middle, so please take those if you would like. Alright, so, um, I am also, uh, one of the key organizers of this big event here, um, helping out with [00:16:30] Pride. And one of our, you know, the kind of whakatoki, the theme of Pride this year is Kamua Kamuri, which means to... I always get these words mixed up, which means to walk into the future with our eyes looking back at the past. So, about reflecting on our history and where we've come from and what we are learning to take into, um, our future and the different generations that are coming after us. And so I want to use that [00:17:00] theme to guide today's discussion and to talk about our history and our queerness and our ethnic identities. And to start that off, because we are all manuhiri in this country and we are here by the grace of Te Tiriti o Waitangi, I want to kick off by talking a little bit about how you feel your identity is reflected in your relationship to Waitangi, and your relationship to this land that is not yours, and what that, how that makes you [00:17:30] feel, and your kind of sense of responsibilities and duties that you might carry a result of that. I'm just going to open this up to start a korero amongst all of us, so. Um, I guess my relationship with fertility is when I had this conversation with my mother before I moved here and she did tell me, she said, remember on whose land you're on. You have land back at home. You have a village back at home. So ensure that as Manuhiri, you treat the people of that land with respect. [00:18:00] And that's the conversation that's always, um, I've taken for my mother, but you know, when I moved here at 18. And I had a conversation similarly again, um, on, in December when I was in India, and my auntie said the same thing, she said just ensure that you are respectful of the land that you're on, and connect with indigenous people because they've been through so much trauma, very much like many of us who have been affected by colonization, with the erasure of our cultures, erasure of our languages, and erasure of our identities. [00:18:30] So for me, who is Manuhiri, an indigenous to another part of, you know, to another part of the world, it is to ensure, it is to ensure that we bring balance to what has been taken away from the indigenous people. And that way for me is to engage in challenging conversation as Manuhiri with Tangata Whenua, with Mana Whenua, so that we are not causing harm all the time, because it can, so we're not inflicting harm. And that can be done [00:19:00] unconsciously. As well, because you don't know better, right? But, when you got called in by tangata fenuaan, by mana fenuaan, we have to ensure that we are not defensive when we come to our approach of understanding as to how we can become better tangata terti um, in a land that has provided us, or providing us with so much. Um, and, but has been taken so much from the indigenous people of this land. So, through pride. Um, Talia and I, who is, I [00:19:30] believe, Talia is one of the first indigenous people who is Tangata Whenua, who is the co chair of PRIDE, you know, it's 1986 was the liberation of PRIDE, our liberation of our queer people over to the homosexual law reform, but it took 36 to, you know, 35 to 36 years for someone who's indigenous to come into Wellington PRIDE Festival. You know, that's way too long of a time, and we have to ensure that whatever we do. [00:20:00] Um, yeah, we have to ensure whatever we do in the future with pride, it is to, to, to, um, centralize it is. Um, not harmful to the indigenous people and then to the black people and then to the brown and people of color. Um, and what we do is engage in conversations that have been left at the margins of the margins by people who are not willing to be, who are not willing to have those conversations [00:20:30] at all. But I'm straying away so I'll pass it on to whoever wants to have a chat about this. Um, yeah, so, since I grew up here in Aotearoa, um, we decided to go through primary school and you learn a little bit about kind of history and culture and understanding about, um, the Treaty of Waitangi and, and those kinds of things. And, um, as one of the only, like, two Asian people at our school, you know, we weren't... included in any of those conversations talked about our history at [00:21:00] all. Um, and so it was only when I kind of got into my teen years and learned a little bit more, um, and started to have conversations with other, um, non Māori people of colour about our relationship to this land and what, um, our relationship to Te is, um, that I started to actually understand and, like, kind of find my place more, um, in that positionality. Um, I joined a rōpū called Asians for Tino Rangatiratanga, um, and they're a really awesome rōpū, um, particularly with a strong group up in Tāmaki, but as well here in Pōneke and Ōtepoti, [00:21:30] um, who, yeah, our whole kind of mahi and at the centre of what we do is educating, um, and also advocating about Te Tiriti o Waitangi to particularly Asian, um, people of colour, because there is anti Māori sentiment within, um, Asian communities, um, and it is, It's the land that we're living on and we should be. Like, we need to acknowledge that and be proud, um, to be here, but also acknowledging, um, in Australian times we actually have a lot more in common than people think. Like, um, back home in Vietnam, we've been colonised and [00:22:00] it wasn't quite the same as how it happened here in Aotearoa, but those are shared traumas that we have as well. Um, and so bringing people together, um, to talk about that, to kōrero more, um, I think is really important, um, and, like, I'm stoked that it's happening a lot in terms of my generation, but there are people older than us. People, um, who don't have that access to that information that we have to, um, pass it on to as well. Um, so I think that's pretty key. Hola. Um, as I said, I've been here for three years, which I, I [00:22:30] do not consider to be a long time. So this is something that I'm definitely still trying to figure out for myself. Sorry. Something I'm still trying to figure out for myself. Um, within that, I feel... A very great responsibility to not only say like, Yay, a lot of people deserve rights because obviously, but actually try to understand. Um, vision the Maori have, try to understand the relationship to the land, [00:23:00] because the permission that I have, like, that's in quotations, the permission that I have to be in this country was not given by the people who were supposed to give me that permission, um, is to the colonial state of New Zealand. So also always trying to have that in mind, and within that, there, like you mentioned, there's a lot of. Similarities, obviously, um, colonization in Mexico was different. But there's still these shared stories, and I find that a lot of [00:23:30] the time talking to, um, Maori people, I have a lot in common. And it's almost like I have a friend that I didn't know I had. So... Um, while I do, I do not want to gloss over the fact that obviously Maori are still oppressed here, are still like, treated like this is not their land, like, like it wasn't actually stolen. But anyway, um, uh, just also trying to [00:24:00] connect in that joy that I think we have and that sense of wanting to be a community. Um, whereas the system around us tells us to. Be individuals, not worry about anyone else. There's always discomfort to know that. Even though it's from completely different backgrounds, we have this that unite us as wanting to care for each other. A lot of our values are very similar. So, yeah, it's still definitely a work in progress for me. Um, [00:24:30] and yeah, I have to say about that. My rela Hello? Can you, can you hear me? Okay, cool. Um, my relationship with, um, to Tinnity is that more, quite, quite recently, like maybe the last couple of months, I've done quite a bit of reading on colonial racism here, and it was a massive eye opener, um, and. Um, yeah, [00:25:00] I read some stuff that I wasn't aware of, and, um, it really showed me just how, A, how lucky I am to be here, um, but also just how lucky I am that I'm here. That Tank 10 anywhere are allowing me to be here because honestly, if I'd been through what 10 been through, I don't know if I'd be, I don't know if I'd be okay to be honest. I dunno if I would be, and the fact that it's ongoing is also a. It's also really [00:25:30] disheartening, so I think for me, particularly when it comes to talking to other migrants, other members of my community, particularly the older members of my community, I feel a real strong responsibility to challenge them on their views, because like you were saying, there is also anti Maoist in African communities. And I think with most migrant communities of colour, black and brown, um, Particularly our older generations, they think, well, there's a, there's a treaty here, we didn't have that, therefore they're lucky. Absolutely no. So I might swear, I'm sorry if I [00:26:00] do, but that's how I express my emotion. But absolutely no, that's not the case. Um, and I have to really, like, go back into the history. I have to go back to like the 1400s and talk about things like the doctrine of discovery. I've got to talk about the wars of sovereignty, I've got to talk about like, um, Pai Kakariki, and Bastion Point. Um, and those are the learnings, and those are the conversations I'm constantly having with, um, within my community. Because I just, they don't know just how bad it is, was, and has been. And I feel a real [00:26:30] strong responsibility to challenge those. Those thoughts and even with my other colleagues or other friends who are also migrants from the UK because God knows There are people from the UK who think even more racist views Um, I feel I feel very strong about challenging that and I do and sometimes Sometimes it's outside the bar on like a Saturday night. I don't care where it is. I will do it and I will continue to do it because It's totality. It's not about the treaty. The treaty was bullshit. [00:27:00] It's totality and that is That is the only totality I know. Everything else, I don't know what this treaty is, but it's, I know that's not what the people that allow me to be here signed up for, so, and I will continue to push that. The truth. Truth to power. I guess my, um, relationship with Te Tiriti started, um, where, where I was born and grew up, Ngārua Waihia, so some of you may know Ngārua Waihia is the seat of the [00:27:30] Kingitanga, the Māori King movement, um, that was developed in response to the colonial, um, Um, forced dispossession of land, land confiscation at Ōpatsu, um, and growing up we would have elders come, um, Tainui elders come into the school, um, and talk about these stories and share oral histories, um, and I think, for me, like what, um, what others have said on the panel [00:28:00] is, um, Really just recognizing there was a lot of affinity there. A lot of affinity. Um, India was colonized through, um, you know, economically through the East Indian Company. Um, and, um, really, really horrifically violent ways, particularly in where, um, where I was from, where I am from, sorry, in Punjab. Um, I was just there in December and I visited a place called the Jallianwala Bagh. Um, [00:28:30] and this was a place where, um, Sikh individuals were celebrating Vaisakhi, which is the Punjabi New Year, um, essentially, um, and, um, sorry, I'm getting a bit distracted, but, they're going hard over there, I think, um, but essentially what the British did is, um, you know, these people were celebrating Vaisakhi, and General Dyer, um, of, um, The British Indian Army, um, ordered these individuals to be [00:29:00] shot. Um, so round about a thousand, the estimates are a thousand to five thousand people, mostly women and children, um, were killed by colonial bullets. Um, so growing up, hearing those stories from, from my whānau, but then also hearing stories from Tainui elders, I always had a sense of affinity, um, and I guess the only, the obligation that I feel really strongly, as Gina and Chinwe have alluded to, is really having those [00:29:30] challenging conversations. Um, I was just over in Sydney for World Pride, um, and I caught up with one of my, um, One of my family friends, um, well, we call him uncle, all Indians do, um, and, um, he was driving me around and he was like, oh, you know, um, um, the aboriginals are just like the Maori, um, lazy, all of that stuff. Um, and. I was like, Uncle Hemet, like, come on, yeah, yeah, like, come on. Um, and then we proceeded to [00:30:00] have a conversation that was really uncomfortable because in Indian culture you're taught to respect your elders and you're taught to not answer back. Um, but in some instances you need to answer back. Um, so, yeah, I guess that's the obligation that I feel there beyond all of the other ones. I think one other thing I do want to raise Um, is, um, I think there needs to be broader discussion, particularly in light of what the Waitangi [00:30:30] Tribunal said last year. So, December, I think November, December, the Waitangi Tribunal released Y1040, um, Te Papi, um, Te Raki, and this was a North, Northland, um, iwi, um, Um, Inquiry, and the Waitangi Tribunal headed by Judge Cox had concluded, um, conclusively that Māori did not cede sovereignty. Now what does this mean, obviously it's not a new concept, but this is the first time that the Waitangi [00:31:00] Tribunal, or one of the first times that the Waitangi Tribunal has promulgated this, so how do we, um, as ethnic communities, um, play our part in, um, Cultivating those discussions in response to that. Kia ora, and I just want to acknowledge this, like, juxtaposition that's happening here. Uh, and how it's a bit uncomfortable, but we're just gonna raise our voices a little and keep going. Um, I think that you've raised a really awesome point that I want to... [00:31:30] Touch on something you said about how often when we are trying to have these conversations with our own community about different kinds of racism, we're kind of, not only are these like emotionally challenging, but they're really culturally challenging because there's this like Respect your elders, or all else, kind of mentality, and how difficult that can be, and how, like, people who, like white people who are like, oh yeah, you know, just call out the racist uncle, don't realize the massive implications for that. [00:32:00] So I think that's a really big thing. Did anyone want to talk to that? Um, yeah, I've seen like definitely the, um, so in Vietnam kind of alongside like the respect to elders, it also goes into like, so if my mom's mother was younger than your, like my auntie's mo it's like quite complex, but basically my mom's like the youngest in the kind of family, which means I'm one of the youngest cousins, even if not by age. That kind of adds another layer to that. Um, Respect and like [00:32:30] what you're supposed to say to all these people about um, certain topics Um, but definitely vibe with the like trying to have these tough conversations typically on racism sometimes the sexism, sexism as well Um, and yeah, they're challenging because they're like, well, why are you saying like this is how I've always believed Why are you coming in here and saying something different about it? But I find also, um, in these When having conversations with, um, elders or other people, um, about like, uh, queer, trans, rights, all these kinds of things, that, another sense [00:33:00] as well, and so, because I have, in their eyes, am part of these rainbow communities. When I start talking about other kind of marginalised communities, I might not have as much weight to my voice. And so that's why I find, why I feel it's really important for other people who are part of our ethnic minority communities who aren't rainbow to have the conversations about rainbowness with the people who are against us, basically. Yeah. Um, okay. And [00:33:30] also into this of respecting your elders, et cetera, et cetera. While I'm personally, I'm like, yes, we need to challenge that. But obviously as a lot of BIPOC people know, it's not as easy as we've talked about. But I also try to have these conversations from a place of compassion because I don't know if me telling these things to the, to my elder. It's going to, in their head, maybe like, Oh, all this time, I could have done this, or be this, [00:34:00] and you're doing it, and that's making me sad, so I reacted in an angry way. That is something that I find is very common in our communities, because, um, I don't know how many Latin American people you know, but here there are a lot of queer Latin American people, but because of our own communities. We're not out, or a lot of us are not out. Or if we're out, we're mostly with people who are, yeah, Latin American, but they're straight. So you kind of have to [00:34:30] deem yourself. So, there's a lot of that, um, also back and forth. Kind of being in the middle of, I want to approach this with compassion, because I don't know what this person has gone through. But I also do want to be firm that, Um, this is something that I might find unacceptable. And I think that's the, that has been the hardest thing for me of understanding this complex, um, generational trauma. But also [00:35:00] being able to hold people accountable. Um, yeah. Um, I think when I go back home and visit my family, because they're all based there, Um, I love what you said, go with compassion, because I actually call out the systems that we have inherited through colonization, which is the education system is flawed, they have eradicated, um, cultures and identities within India in itself, you know, the Hijra community, which is a trans, um, community, so ingrained in [00:35:30] our culture and they've been identified now as a third gender through constitution but it's still within the margins of the margins. So I blame a lot of this stuff to colonization because the conversations we're having now is With my mom in particular, she's so stuck in this pool of, um, Christianity, another thing that we've inherited, um, through colonization, and she can't get out of it. So when you're stuck in a system [00:36:00] where the entire conversation is based on the inherited systems, Um, it is really hard for her to foresee anything beyond that. So, it's taken over 10 years. I came out 23, and I went back in December. We tried to have a conversation again, and she still can't get her head out of it. It's so sad to me to see our elders... Who, uh, involved in these systems, who do you think are right for us, and they can't seem to get out of it [00:36:30] at all. So I think we need to call out government, we need to call out constitution, to really realize that the identities that we all have, have always been part of our cultures. Um, and just... To be honest, burn the system down. That's my thing. But, um, yeah. The compassion thing, absolutely. Because I move with compassion to the conversations I have with my elders. Um, because I just feel so much sadness. Um, in Altsero, we do [00:37:00] have access to information. We do have access to a lot of these privileges. But for people who live in the mountains where my tribe are from, they don't have any of that. And all they have is a flawed system in place. Yeah, I think the education piece is really important, right? Like, a lot of us hold this huge educational privilege to be able to be in rooms like this with people like this and speak the way that we do. And I think often it's a privilege that a lot of us take for granted the ability to be articulate and how much [00:37:30] access that grants us, whereas people who share similar identities and similar experiences have the same thing to say but don't have the same words to say it and are not taken It was the same amount of value. And I find that really frustrating, because it's like, just because I speak the way that I do doesn't mean that I should be the one to sit here. And yet we always end up in these same spaces. So I think that's, for me, something that I have to think very carefully about, about not taking up too much space, just because I can speak the way that I can. I [00:38:00] think the same for a lot of us who hold higher education. But that's getting off topic. I want to, um, raise our view a little bit from, kind of, our kūrinasan and pride in Aotearoa, which obviously is so front and centre right now, to looking at the history of the movement, kind of, globally. And a lot of us come from identities that have never really been seen in pride, and have never been celebrated, or have, I think, for many people who I've spoken to, they kind of move beyond, experiences of [00:38:30] marginalization to complete invisibilization. Just never even noticed. So I wanted to invite anybody to reflect on that kind of wider global movement and whether you have or have not been seeing yourself and people like you at that level. Hello. It's me again. Um, okay. About that topic is very interesting. So, uh, I'm also the communication director in Wellington pride. So, oh, [00:39:00] sorry. I'm also the communication director of Wellington pride. So like that banner or anything that you see in graphics, I made it. If you, thank you. Um, if you notice, Like past Pride, um, posters, etc. How many brown people were there? It wasn't until this year that absolutely everyone in the posters is brown. And, this is, this is very strange when you take into account that such [00:39:30] popular things that are seen as queer culture Come from brown people specifically. Like, things like the ballroom scene. The ballroom scene is a very specific example because it was started by black and Latin American trans women. And yet we were never invited to these spaces. A lot of people love to cosplay as us. Try to talk like us. Try to dress like us. But do not invite us. So, I [00:40:00] feel that that's something so interesting when you see it in a place like this. Like, I'll tell you what, a lot of people see it as very progressive. And yet, people are like, oh, it's just that. I don't know anyone Latin American. I don't know anyone black. It's like, have you tried to get to know us? Have you tried to invite us into your spaces? Spaces that are ours by right. Because it was our people who started it. And yet, it's someone else who's reaping these, um, [00:40:30] benefits of it. I totally thought about everything Ana just said. Um, the anti blackness, anti Latin American ness, and erasure of blackness and Latin American ness in the queer scene in Conaca is so rampant. There are ballroom scenes here that almost are gatekept away from black and Latin American queer people. Um, I've been, I've [00:41:00] seen them. You get looks, you get looks, and I'm not saying that personally, but I know so many black queer people who have been, um, forcefully kept out of these spaces, but yet, everything is culturally appropriated. The way we talk, dance, what we dress, even our hair. I've seen people literally curl their hair to get my texture. So that they can go and perform Beyoncé, and go and perform Lizzo, and go and perform every single other black artist [00:41:30] they know, but yet don't want to engage with black people. There's a very common saying, which actually comes from um, African American culture. They, they want, they want to be us, but they don't want to be with us. And that is so true here. And honestly, I've never felt so invisible as when I do when I'm in queer spaces. Outside of um, The few BIPOC that are here, even going downstairs, if I'm not among my friends, I feel overwhelmed and invisible and also scared. Because where are we? [00:42:00] Where are our stalls? Where are our people? Why are we not here? We don't feel safe to be here. I go to Ivy Bar. And where the hell are we? Where are all the black drag performers? Where are the Latin American drag performers? We don't feel safe to be there. You know, like, we don't see BIPOC there, but you'll see like, um, white people there. Great. But they're twerking. And they're like, singing liberally to R and B and hip hop and using the n words like it's nothing. Everybody's using the n words, apart from black [00:42:30] people, which is ironic. I mean, I don't. But anyway. Um, it's, it creates trauma. So every time I step into a queer space, I feel trauma, I'm triggered. Every time I'm engaging with, uh, queer white people, I'm genuinely traumatised and triggered. Because there's no acknowledgement of anything that our people... have gone through or given up for us all to be here. And it really bothers me, it's almost [00:43:00] like, it's almost like we're living in a microcosm and the effects of international history only apply so far as our fashion and our music and our culture. But the context, international context here, it's like as soon as you get off at the airport, ah, it doesn't matter, it doesn't mean anything. And that's what I feel every time I'm out here in Puneke, in any queer space. And honestly, it is PTSD. It is a thing. Race based trauma is, is a medical term and most BIPOC have it. And I'm [00:43:30] sorry, I should have put Trigger Warning on this. Sorry. Um, it's a thing. It's a thing. Um, and I would just love it if we could acknowledge our histories. And I have to say, um, I thank Namihi to you, Viv, and Talia, because the Hikoi is the first time, the first time I've ever felt even slightly seen. It was the flag raising. It was, can black and Latin American queer and trans people come up and raise the, the flag? First time. I've never seen our flag up there. [00:44:00] I've never felt represented. And we, and there's never any conversation about who came before us, but there, there was. But I want to see that all the time. Everywhere. You don't have to be, I don't, just because I'm, I'm not trans, but I am black. I'm not African American, but I am black. And I want my people, my diaspora, my, the storytellers from beyond, my activists from history, I want them to be recognized. I don't want their voices to be lost and I won't allow them to be lost. And if I've got to be that loud black person that's saying [00:44:30] black trans lives matter, I'm going to say it until the day I die. But I want everybody else to say it too. Latin American trans lives matter too. We mana tū, our people mana tū. Um, I, um, have never attended a pride event in Aotearoa, um, and I probably won't. Um, um, I think picking up on the safety [00:45:00] point is definitely the safety element. Um, in terms of the safety, what I'm referring to is emotional safety, um, and mental safety. Um, Because there's just not that there. And I've got two really key issues with the way that Pride engages in the, sorry, there we go, in Aotearoa. And I think the first one is, there's this perception [00:45:30] that queerness is whiteness, and whiteness is queerness. And how that plays out in Pride spaces is that, um, the practices, the events, the processes of pride are based on Euro centric conceptions of what it means to be queer. Um, but to me, being queer isn't, um, you know, and I say this in a respectful, in a respectful fashion, [00:46:00] but to me being queer Um, you know, walking down the street, um, um, you know, um, What am I trying to say? Yeah, it isn't walking down the street with, um, a six pack, abs, and, like, with my whiteness showing. That, that's not the manifestation of queerness to me. My queerness is a bit more personal to me. Um, it's a bit more, uh, indigenous to me. Um, so there's, [00:46:30] there's that point, but the second one that I've, I really felt when I was over at World Pride is, um, Pride has really seemed to have lost its focus on protest and human rights. Um, and you know, we've all, we, I think we all mostly agree to that point. Um, I think the most courageous Pride event ever, To be held in the world's history is a event by S [00:47:00] Sexual Minorities Uganda, um, I think it was 2016, 2017, where they marched through, um, the streets of the capital city. Now in Uganda, they passed a law in 2014 that was appealed, that was repealed by the constitutional court. But it was there around, um, and sorry, a trigger warning, um, around the death penalty for, uh, queer people. Now, [00:47:30] where is the same sentiment of courage, bravery and respect for human rights in our pride scene here? Because that was all about human rights. We don't, we don't have that here. Um, to, to conclude on this point, um, I... Last year I was in India and I was lucky enough to attend Dilli Pride. Um, so Dilli is the capital city of India. Um, and it was... It was the greatest feeling of my life. Um, that was the only Pride event I've ever gone to and I [00:48:00] probably won't, yeah, as I said, I probably won't have the same experience ever again. Um, just walking with Indian LGBT individuals was the most special thing. Because growing up, even though I didn't attend Pride events, seeing Pride events on TV and popular culture, it was, um, A place of whiteness and a place of exclusion, so. Yeah, I mean this is, I just want to acknowledge that this [00:48:30] is like real heavy stuff. And I think it's important and I think that holding this is really important which is why we're having these kinds of discussions because these are deep feelings and these are not just something that we bring out to play with and we, you know, hold a panel to chat about this absolute crap, like this is real stuff that we're experiencing every day and I just want to appreciate that. For those people in the room who aren't white or aren't Pākehā, we don't leave this at the door. Like, this is our lives. And [00:49:00] so that's why I just think that these things are so important to recognise that. GIFs is just the everyday reality, right? Um, and I wanted to keep talking about the, um, the social movements and the move away from human rights, because I think this is really important. I think it happens in Pride and other social movements. It's all about, like, the kind of commercialization and capitalization of, of white bodies and all that kind of thing. And there is... None of that uncomfortable courage that we [00:49:30] used to see in a lot of movements and that we see represented in other cultures and other countries. And I think this is something that, if anyone would like to chat further about, I think is really important because I think, you know, in a move to try and bring people in, they were like, oh, we've got to make it comfortable for everyone. And everyone's got to be able to just come along and have a good time, and wear some glitter, and call it a day. And at some point, that became that thing, where it was like, oh, well, there's only... joy, and there's no recognition of all the [00:50:00] sacrifice and all the fights that we have had and still have to have. And especially in Aotearoa, we start to go, oh well, we all have rights now, we're all fine. Whereas that's completely and utterly untrue. But people don't remember that. So I just wanted to invite any of you to reflect on that, if you would like. Okay, um, so yeah, about that is, it's very interesting because, um, well, trigger warning, just political instability and violence [00:50:30] because of that. Um, coming from a place like Latin America, specifically Mexico, and I say Mexico because Latin America has many countries. So it's different, a little bit different everywhere. Um, it's a very, very heavily politicized space. And moving here and seeing that it's not, it's very, very discouraging. Um, I'm gonna talk again about the ballroom scene because that's something that I am in love with and [00:51:00] it's where I live violence. Um, so for example, in Ballroom, for those who don't know, you might have seen it, um, what's the show that is all about Ballroom? There's so many. Post. Exactly, Post. I haven't watched it, sorry. But, um, It's trendy, and it's, oh yeah, so cool, yes, girl, do whatever, blah, blah, blah. People love to say that. But when it comes to the actual ballroom scene, um, instead of being an act of rebellion, instead of [00:51:30] being, for example, in the category that I like to walk, which is Sex Siren, instead of being a celebration of bodies that have historically been put in the margins, it's almost like we're here regressing to wanting to appeal to the masses, wanting to appeal to whiteness and more about the proximity to whiteness or the cosplaying of blackness, which is a very specific thing that I've seen here. And it's incredibly upsetting because how is it that a movement that's starting [00:52:00] politically is now reduced to this? It's now reduced to trying to imitate people but not have them there. Um, I think for, for some of us, it's about like, We don't need to be in those spaces. I don't need to be in a Takatāpui space, but what I can do is give my money so that space exists and is there. Um, for those of us who have, um, the privilege of time, or the privilege of money, um, or energy, or a platform, it's about making sure that, um, those... who are at the margins actually, you [00:52:30] know, we're spreading the message and we're giving our money. We're giving our pūtia so that they can have those spaces, particularly when it's not, you know, it's not free, it's not cheap just to make a safe space for certain groups of our communities. I think, um, a lot of people come up to me and they I like, you're so lucky to be in Aotearoa, and you know what, yes I am very lucky, but you know what would be even more lucky is for me to not be displaced from my own land because of queer identity, you know, um, I'd [00:53:00] rather be there. I'd rather have my whenua were there, but because we've been forced to, not even forced, but just being led to come to Aotearoa because we have to be closeted back at home, otherwise we get killed. You know, I was on a date in December with the first Khasi person there. And we went on a really dark road, really, and we were just sitting in the car, yawning. And a police car came right outside, saying, What are you two doing? And it's all these things. And I felt so [00:53:30] much sadness for him because I could escape that, you know? I could come to Aotearoa and just leave that conversation there. And for him, he didn't know what to do. He doesn't talk to his family. He's um, closeted. All of his life and he can't, he doesn't know how to get out of it, you know, and I feel like as queer people here maybe there is a certain way that we can amplify and Use our connections globally to liberate queer people across [00:54:00] the world And I think we tend to forget that just because we have all the rights here. There are many people who don't have rights and conversations here are Diverting away from protesting and human rights, they're going too much into celebration, which is great, but also we still need to have the conversations, you know, um, there's 196 countries in the world and you can just imagine the minimal amount of, um, countries we are allowed to go to, and, um, you know, so. I [00:54:30] think pride globally and locally has to continue to remain a protest until we are safely, um, able to travel, able to navigate this world and able to go back to our own lands as well. I don't know if it's alright, but can I ask a question of the audience? Sweet. 83% What do you think that statistic refers to? We have seven seconds. Just shout out my answers. [00:55:00] No, although that's a good guess. Yeah, perfect. There you go. Perfect. Yeah, so 83 percent of the world's LGBT population is in the closet. And that was some research that, um, Um, was done, I think, two years ago, Yale Mental Health, um, clinic that they have over there. So 83 percent of the world's LGBT population is in the closet. [00:55:30] Um, LGBT identity is still criminalized in 69 countries. Um, the death penalty, sorry, trigger warning, death penalty, um, applies in 11 countries. Um, and it has been used as recently, um, as last year in, um, a, in a country. Um, so, the human rights situations, while we enjoy relative rights freedoms in Aotearoa, I, and I say relative because some of us, some LGBT populations [00:56:00] experience more rights realizations than others. So, my charity last year did a bit of research into the experiences of LGBT South Asians in Aotearoa. Um, and, the, the experiences that we found were alarming. Um, we had instances of really hearty familial violence, um, when people would come out. They would, again, and all of this is a trigger warning in terms of violence, um, their families would turn on them, would beat [00:56:30] them physically, um, would emotionally abuse them, um, conversion practices are definitely a thing in ethnic communities, but they don't actually, um, what the evidence showed is that they didn't happen inside Aotearoa. Um, they were commissioned inside Aotearoa, but then they were sent overseas to do it. Now the new conversion practices law won't do anything about that, because it doesn't criminalise extraterritorial conversion practices. So ethnic LGBT people are fucked over by the law in that regard, [00:57:00] so there's still much more to do in the human rights sphere, in terms of LGBT rights in Aotearoa, but even more so overseas. Um, particularly when we have the world's largest cultural hegemon. The U S A already passing 400 anti L G B T laws this year, and we're proposing them, sorry, I think around about 20 have passed. Um, but the cultural impact that that will have on radicalization, on violence against [00:57:30] our communities is, um, really scary. Um, I would also like to point out in, within this part of politicizing pride, um, is also, even if I'm part of a marginalized community, also question, still questioning myself, where is it, where in these, my identities do I hold privilege? Because a lot of the time there is that. And sometimes it might feel [00:58:00] very, um, abstract. Well, what do we do now? Simple things like, for example, if you're going to organize an event for Pride, make it accessible. Make it accessible in the sense that, for example, I use a cane. I am not able to go to a lot of events or to my friends houses or whatever because I have chronic pain. So I might just be in pain. Or, there's too many stairs and there's no elevator. Like, there's also those other parts of... [00:58:30] Being in a marginalized community that I may be like, well, I do hold certain privileges, acknowledging them, and then saying, where can I go from there? I'd like to keep building on that, Anna. This idea that like, so, you know, we are all here because we hold queer identities and we hold ethnic identities, but we also hold others as well. And I want to have a chat about how challenging that can be for us to hold so many hats. In ourselves, in so many different varying [00:59:00] degrees. So, you know, there are, for me personally, there are some identities that I am very, very staunch in, and I am a very public advocate for, and then there are some things which I'm still so tentative about, because I, you know, am struggling with that idea of like, I'm not sure if I can take up that space, or if I'm ready to claim that, but also battling that idea of like, the intellectual side, which says, you know, that is your identity and you get to take up that space, and you get to claim that, but not always feeling that. And I think a lot of us here hold so many different identities of marginalization, [00:59:30] of privilege. And I would like to just hear your thoughts on how you navigate that in the world, and what advice you give to other people who are also trying to do that every day. I cry a lot. Like, for real. Um, it might sound funny, but I feel like one of the many things that colonization has taken away from us is tenderness, and it is... Um, I feel a lot of these [01:00:00] spaces, there is a lot of talk about fight, which definitely has to happen, but there also has to be some space to be like, you know what, this sucks, and I want to be sad today, and I'm going to cry today, and I'm going to feel my feelings, which is something, again, that has been taken away from us. Something that is like, oh, you're going to start to be dramatic, it's like, yes, because this is something that hurts. And, whereas some people might see that as not quite dealing with it, it is. Because once I'm able to give myself [01:00:30] that space, I'm able to be compassionate to myself, I'm able to be compassionate to others. Um, so yeah, that's what I want to add to that. I really struggle with, um, being black and being queer. Um, I can't hide my blackness, nor do I want to. But if I'm walking into a queer space, people don't see anything other than a black thing. I'm not even a person. I'm objectified, um, tokenized, and fetishized. Um, when I [01:01:00] first arrived in Ponica and I went to like Ivy Bar, I got a lot of Slay Queen and these weird head bops and clicking of the fingers. from a lot of cis white people. So immediately they saw me, a black person, and assumed I'm African American and I'm African American stereotype. And I'm an awkward frickin Nigerian girl. I don't, I don't, none of us do that. It's just, it's a nonsense. Um, but because of that, because I'm only seen as a black thing, I can't even, um, Enjoy [01:01:30] or explore my, my queerness, and I also feel being black, that people don't, I'm not allowed to be soft, I'm not even allowed to even feel soft or be gentle, um, and even feel, or be vulnerable, I never feel like I can be, um, and I absolutely definitely can't be in queer spaces, I, the only time I feel like I can actually use my blackness, or my black queerness, um, For good, is, is really in my work. [01:02:00] Um, I'm at the age now where I just don't care what people think. And so I will openly talk about racism and queerphobia of both of them in the, in my workplace, which is the, the, I cannot tell how white it is. I'm the only black person. Um, and when I arrived, when I first arrived on my first day in my job, someone asked me if I was visiting. Why would I be there at 9am on a Monday morning to visit? I was like... No. Are you? Um, they [01:02:30] were. No they weren't, they weren't. They worked there, they worked there. I should have shown them the door, but they worked there. Um, so yeah, it's a constant struggle, but because I just don't care what people think, and I don't want other, I don't want young queer people, young queer black people, and young black trans people to feel this way. I don't want them to go through that. I don't want them to feel like they can't be themselves. And so I feel like I need to speak up, and I want to, and I just don't care what people think anymore. But it is a constant struggle, and I don't feel like I can do that in queer spaces, [01:03:00] because if I talk about racism in queer spaces, I'm the angry black woman, um, I'm aggressive, I'm gonna be the one that'll be, like, chastised and kicked out, and the community will turn against me. I'm, I can't go and talk to the owner of Ivy and say, look, this happened. They don't care, you know, and I think that probably stands for a lot of BIPOC. Um, and so it's a constant struggle and so you come out of those spaces feeling shit and traumatized. Everybody else has had a good night dancing to Beyonce. I've had a terrible night and now I can't listen to Beyonce. So, and [01:03:30] that's, that's what we go through as BIPOC in queer spaces and that's the tension and that's the struggle and that's why I'm in therapy every week. Um, with the identity, I think, uh, to Chinwe's and Anna's point, I have provided more tenderness to the color of my skin because I, when I grew up in India, there's a lot of colorism that happens and this colorism is very existent in our communities. The browner or the closer you are to melanin, uh, the more, you know, you can get. The more marginalized you are, essentially. I remember growing up as [01:04:00] a child, I would take a rock and like try to scrape the melanin out of my skin because I was made fun of being the darkest in my family. And I had a conversation again with my niece and she was made fun in school for being the brown child. Compared to her mum, who is fairer skinned. And that conversation is still ongoing. So I provide so much tenderness. It's only been the past few years meeting beautiful people who are melanin. Um, to be softer to To the skin color that I am and I'm trying to find more [01:04:30] tenderness in my queerness as well, which I It's an ongoing journey, but the first and foremost thing that people see of me is my brown skin. So I have to protect myself from that. As I walk down Kiewit Street, the racist, uh, courting place, the racism that gets in there, as I work in a place that's full of white people, the racism, the microaggressions that come through there, you know, the way I articulate myself, and because I don't have a particular accent, They think, um, the microaggressions that come out from there as well. You know, when I landed in El [01:05:00] Tiro when I was 18, the first conversation was with a white person saying, You don't smell Indian. And you don't speak like an Indian person. And that, those conversations have been ongoing. The therapist I had last year, she said, a white woman, said, um, Probably your Indian accent will come out as we speak through this conversation at the moment. You know, so I've stopped going to therapy because of the amount of white therapists out there that have kept me unsafe when I've tried to be vulnerable. And it's very hard [01:05:30] for people of color, indigenous and black people, sorry, vulnerable, to be vulnerable. So when you're pushing yourself to get therapy, and then, um, That conversation turns violent really quickly. So your walls are back up again because society and the system in place are not there to protect you at all. Um, you know, I work very closely with the police sometimes as well with some of the diversity liaisons who I absolutely [01:06:00] do not like. Um, you know, they've used. Me, as a brown person, who's connected to black indigenous brown spaces and use my conversation. Um, and I ask them for solutions, you know, what is going to be in place. Um, and they just ignore me. You know, these conversations are ignored. They just use you and take a photo of you. All the time and I'm kind of tired now. So I'm really really tired. I just want to exist and thrive And not fight, [01:06:30] but I know the fight needs to keep going as we've said before but sometimes I just want yeah Just to exist. I'm just tired at the moment Yeah, I, uh, the workplace thing is a whole, a whole moment. I am relatively comparatively incredibly light skinned, uh, and my boss's boss's boss told me that he was scared of me and I was, and I, yeah, uh, had a therapist once tell me they were intimidated by me. So don't go to therapy. [01:07:00] That's why I don't. Anyway. Um, Anna, did you want to make another comment? Yes, um, okay, within this thing of, um, living in more than one intersection. It's also very interesting when your intersections are also ones that you do not see often in front, in front of different rooms. Um, for example, Again, how many Latin American people have you seen in this position? Um, how many [01:07:30] disabled people, physically disabled people have you seen in this position? How many openly neurodivergent people have you seen in this position? And whereas, that's amazing that I'm able to be here. Um, it's very difficult when people think that I have all the answers. I feel like a lot of the time, when you're in activist spaces, people forget that you're a person, that I'm just 27, that I do not know everything. And I think, in the end, what makes difficult for me [01:08:00] personally, having all these intersections, is the expectations that other people put on me. The expectation that because I say I am disabled, I know everything about disability rights, I do not. Um, or they want me to speak on things and tell them always what's correct or look for reassurance. This is very common, I think, um, especially the more intersections you have, especially white people get very excited to talk to you, so that they can pat themselves on the back and be like, look at me, I'm so [01:08:30] inclusive when it's not the case. Or coming up to you and Being like, oh wow, you were such a good speaker, and then trauma dump on you. And it's like, bro, I'm just trying to live my life. Like, calm down. I think that's what's more difficult about navigating this. It's not maybe my own journey, but what other people put on me because of that. Just a note to everybody after this panel, please don't find our panelists and tell them all about your trauma, or what a good ally you [01:09:00] are. Please don't do that. Um. I want to talk about in our, like, our last wee while before we open up for questions about our hopes for people who look like us and how we would like people, like, who are, who are like us to be able to feel in our communities and in queer spaces and in pride spaces. What, what are our hopes and dreams, um, for people, for, for, for the younger [01:09:30] versions of ourselves? What I would hope is that. Okay, so with this is, comes a conversation of representation. And I am personally of the idea of representation is not effective if I am not making space for other people. Representation not about me, Anna, is not about making myself popular or important. But it's so that I am opening the door for other people to come in. So what I am hoping is that, I have already received [01:10:00] more than one message being like, Thank you that there's a Latin American person, because I've been living here 5, 10, 15 years, never have I ever been, um, recognized as part of the community. My hope would be that people see us, see me, and say, I can also do that. Um, and I can talk from experience there. Two years ago I think was the first time you chaired. The only reason I'm here is because Viv, every time I went to an event I would just see Viv. And they would always say hi [01:10:30] to me. That was it. That's all it took. I saw a brown person was always saying hi to me. That was always very nice. And that told me, okay, that means that I can be in this space. I'm not nice anymore. Horrible person. I think for me it's, um, for people to be able to rest. That's the one thing. I think for a lot of us who are activists and, you know, doing this work is, first of all, is free. We do a lot of [01:11:00] free work and a lot of it's demanding. And I just hope Rangatsahi who come can rest and chill and thrive and be in the queerness and the brownness and all intersections safely and comfortably. Um, you know, and I don't mind. Fighting because, and um, advocating because there is a child that did not get that and was me. You know? Um, yeah, so I don't mind being tied for a little bit. But it has come at the, [01:11:30] with pride in particular, it has come at the expense of my mental health as well. Um, and expense of relationships, um, you know, so, I, we just need to find balance and I'm not too sure how to do that yet. So. Shout out to Rust. That's a great question and something I reflect on often because I am, um, you know, still relatively young, um, still don't know what I'm gonna do with my life, blah blah blah. But what I really hope to [01:12:00] see particularly for our rainbow communities is Kind of alongside that rest and balance is enough money to live on every day without having to spend, like, uh, work three jobs while also studying. We know our trans whānau are at higher risks of homelessness. Um, we can't access rainbow and culturally competent mental health services. Um, it's hard to find housing that is... You know, safe, inclusive, warm, dry, all of these kinds of things. Um, and yeah, have enough money so that we don't have to work in a [01:12:30] workplace where you have to stay closeted the whole time and be misgendered constantly. Definitely, totally not what I experienced at all. Um, and so yeah, that's kind of like why I got into politics in general and why I continue staying there because it is tough. It is draining, um, mentally and physically and emotionally, but, um, just the knowledge that, um, even just a little bit. Um, even just a few conversations can help shape the future to be one that, um, we all can thrive in. Um, yeah, that's what keeps me going. [01:13:00] Um, I feel like we're having the same conversations that our, like, our whānau who've come before us have had about our rights and our, um, freedoms. Um, I feel like that's... This is my mouth. Oh, there we go. Um, and I feel, yeah, and that concerns me. And what I want is for, um, Rangatahi not to have to have these conversations because it's done, that it's there, like. We [01:13:30] have more than met the bare minimum. Their rights and their freedoms are there and it's ingrained And it's not this unique or new thing that they have to keep protesting and fighting and end up burnt out like us and burnt Out like our people that came before us and I want them to Instead, be able to talk about their hopes and their dreams, aspirations for themselves that are not, that are just like every other, like CIS person can do. They can talk about, I want to buy a house. I'd have to like, think about, Oh, I need to get access [01:14:00] to quality healthcare. But we do, or, and Transfano do, and Arangatahi Transfano do. And I don't want that for them. I want it to be there already. So they can actually. We can set the pie high and the sky can actually be the limit, as opposed to the bottom of this earth, you know? And so, yeah, that's what I want for them. Um, I'm gonna speak in two contexts, the first being the global, the second Aotearoa. Um, I, oh sorry, there we go, um, I [01:14:30] follow this, um, couple on Instagram, they're like a, uh, gay German couple. Um, and like they travel the world and go to like fancy places and eat at restaurants and stuff like that. Really, really cool. Um, and they've got their rights realizations there. Yep. What I want is a world where all LGBT people have the right to do what they're doing. Yep. Where, um, people in, you know, an LGBT individual in an Indian village, for instance, in Punjab, [01:15:00] in one of the most rural states in India, Um, can, perhaps not, you know, if that's not their manifestation of human rights realizations, that's all good. But can do what they want. They can be open, they can be proud, they can be safe, and they can be free. Um, Because right now what we have is we have inequality in the human rights realizations that the LGBT community is experiencing. You have some subgroups in the [01:15:30] population experiencing, um, um, joy in, um, their human rights. And you have some subgroups in that community experiencing absolute destitution. Um, so yeah, really equality in the way that human rights are manifested throughout the world. Um, um, and I get, on that point actually, you know, there are, I mentioned the 83 percent point as well, I would like to get to a [01:16:00] place where it's zero. Um, That would be lovely. Um, particularly because what that research told us is that the degrees of concealment were highest in Africa and Asia. So that's, that's my place. That's Chinwe's place. Um, um, we need our, um, our places to... Get that statistic down. Um, that's the goal. Um, in terms of domestically, what I, sorry, [01:16:30] I know I talk a bit, I'm verbose, but in terms of domestically, Um, I referred to that research that Adhikar did last year, um, and we had conversion practices, we had familial violence, we had Um, a whole load of things, but the one thing that stood out to me actually was invisibilization. Um, and what invisibilization meant. And it meant that, um, the people that we interviewed, there was one interview that I [01:17:00] remember really vividly. It was a gay Indian man, um, in, um, Hamilton. Now, he's married to a female and has two kids. Um, but... He's never going to be able to live his authentic life, because he was forced into that marriage by his family, and by societal and cultural expectations of what it means to carry on the family name. I would like an Aotearoa where all people, you know, [01:17:30] ethnic people in particular, ethnic LGBT people, Can be their authentic selves and are not forced into situations of inauthenticity because they happen all too often. K. My 2 cents, if anyone was interested, I, when I was a teenager, very angry. Very angry teen, and I thought the anger and kindness were binary. I thought that if I was angry, I couldn't be kind, and if I was kind, I couldn't be angry and my mother would. [01:18:00] It's a big advocate for kindness, and I would get really angry because I felt like that was like a paralytic, like she was tone policing me because I was only allowed to be kind, and as an adult, I've finally realized that they're the same thing, that anger is kindness, and that being kind to yourself is allowing yourself to be angry, and so I think My wish is that we are allowed to be both, and we can hold both, and we can recognize that they're the same thing. And I think that was a really big [01:18:30] revelation for me, and a great step for my relationship with my mother. Um, I, this has been beautiful, and I would like to open to questions, um, for our last six minutes. I would like to open to any of the BIPOC members of the audience to ask any of their pātai or their questions first before we open it up more broadly. So is there anyone here who is BIPOC who would like [01:19:00] to ask a question to any of our panellists? Hi, Steph. Um, thank you so much for sharing your experiences, especially in your diaspora with your queerness and BIPOCness. Um, I'm also an immigrant to Aotearoa via, um, Chula Vista in San Diego. And the Philippines via my parents. What is it about... What is it about immigrating um, to Aotearoa specifically that helps you [01:19:30] feel more enabled to express your QT BIPOC ness? For me... I came to Aotearoa by university. So, um, when we all sat down as a family, um, my mum said, where would you like to go? Very kind of her. And we didn't have the money, but the family pooled in money. So the conversation came to racism. And we chose the least racist country out of the five countries that we picked, which is the Western, so the UK, US, Canada, [01:20:00] Australia, and Aotearoa. And I got admitted to Australia, but, um, there was a lot of hatred at that point in time, 2009, towards Indian people in Melbourne, in particular. Um, so, I came here because it is the least, not zero, racism, it is the least racist country, and for people back home, especially like my mother, to be so fearful about her child to come abroad and know exactly what the consequences are, um, Through racism. And [01:20:30] she, she, she's stunning but um, yeah I never understood the, the effects of racism until I got here. And really it has disturbed me mentally. Um, for me as a person who has not, when I moved here because I noticed a lot of unsafe spaces for QTBIPOC people. I started creating safer spaces, um, to the best of my capabilities, so that I can have beautiful friends to share very similar experiences, [01:21:00] um, to celebrate the uniqueness and the blackness, brownness, and diginity. So, that's how, I don't know, I went away from that question, but, yeah, um, but I'll pass it on to someone else. Oh, then I'm not gonna get killed here. Basically. Um, so yeah, massive trigger warning. If you know anything about Latin America, it's a big trigger warning. So, what enables me to do that is, for example, when I [01:21:30] was in Mexico, I had short hair for a few months, and I had never gotten, um, what they shout at you, shouted at, on the street as much as I did back then. Um, what really makes a difference here is that, even though obviously it's not a perfect system, it's a system where I feel safer than where I was, which is, comes with a lot of mourning, because you're not able to be yourself where you are from, and that hurts a lot. [01:22:00] Um, so that's basically why I am way more open here. Back in Mexico, um, my parents are, for example, they think that homosexuality is a demon. That you need to have an exorcism to be able to take it out. So that gives you like, a context of where I come from. So being here, um, has been a journey because it's reconciling the fact that, yay, I'm like, freer to be [01:22:30] more me, but also knowing that the people that I love and grew up with cannot have that. At least, not as of yet. So, even though I faka papa back to Nigeria, I was born and brought up in the UK, in London. And there is a massive Nigerian population, um, in London. And so my entire life, I was fortunate, um, to like my family and my friends, my aunties, my uncles. Not blood aunties and uncles, but just aunties and uncles were all Nigerian. [01:23:00] Yeah, you know, you know, yeah, all Nigerian. And so I was never, and, and Nigerian, being Nigerian is very much tied up in religion. You're either Christian or you're Muslim and they fight. Um, and most, the civil war was, was about that. Um, and, and so there was no opportunity to even, to explore what it is to be, even to be black. Um. Let alone to even be, be queer, and no one in my family, my sister is absolutely not queer. [01:23:30] Um, my cousins are neither, so I was kind of the, I was always the, the weirdo. Um, and I just, and I, funny enough, I'm actually quite introvert and I get tired of people quite easily and so, there'd be like family dinners on a Sunday and after dinner I'd just go out to my room and I'd be told I was being antisocial, which is incorrect, I was being asocial. Um, and so, um, I moved over here to get away from my family, um, because it was super toxic, um, very toxic. And, um, Trigger warning. I, I, [01:24:00] um, I, I come from a very dysfunctional and abusive family as well. So there was that too. And so, I, a bit like Viv, I was, I was in my, uh, I was like 23, and I was looking at which countries I can move to that aren't racist. And it was Australia, Canada, or New Zealand. Australia's too racist. Canada is too cold. Here I am! Um, I don't regret it at all. Um, and it's only since, like I said, since I moved to Puneca, [01:24:30] and BLM happened, and through BLM and trans, the trans lives matter march I ran, I met Viv, and then I like met my fano, my chosen fano here, had that not happened, um, some of you in the audience, um, um, had that not happened, um, I don't, I actually don't know, I may not, had I not left the UK, I don't know, trigger warning, I don't know if I'd be physically in existence. Any other [01:25:00] questions from our BIPOC whānau? Any other questions from anybody else? Alright, everybody's happy. Kei te pai. Okay. Um, well, does anyone want to add any closing whakaaro? Just thank you for listening. Um, It's, it, we've discussed some very heavy topics. [01:25:30] Um, we have challenged whiteness. And while I don't apologize for that, um, I acknowledge it is heavy, um, for our white people in the audience, and also for our BIPOC in the audience. Um, so I just want to acknowledge that, and I ask that BIPOC in particular, you take some time out to heal and practice self care. That includes us, as well. Um, And, yeah, happy pride. [01:26:00] Um, generally with these conversations, I feel inevitably there's white people who are going to feel like they were told off. You were. And I would say, sit with that, ask why do you feel like you were told off when we did not spoke to anyone specifically. Um, sit with that uncomfortableness and I think it's also very important to acknowledge it, not just pretend that you're the ally of the year for coming here. [01:26:30] Um, I also do want to say, um, yeah, for BIPOC people, well, rather. You heard what we said, a little bit of our backgrounds, things that you wouldn't have known just by looking at us. So, again, special to white people, I invite you to not come to us with dumb questions. Like, a lot of people, trigger warning, drug cartels and stuff. An example is that a lot of people come to me as a Mexican, and they want to connect with me by saying that they like watching the [01:27:00] series Narcos, which is about drug cartels, which destroyed my country. So, with all of this, I am inviting you to take those things into account. We are not here for your curiosity. Um, so yeah, I just wanted to say that, to tell you off once more. Just on the back of that, people always come to me and apologize for the Vietnam War. I don't know why I've not heard that one. No, it's awful. So don't [01:27:30] do that. Um, but also I often say, um, so I run like rainbow competency workshops. Um, and like, other paid mahi, and something we always say in it is, um, people who are cisgender, people who are straight, who have reflected on and questioned that part of themselves but still come to that conclusion, are a lot better at talking about gender and sexuality, um, and sex than those who haven't. And so people who, um, whether that's your like, um, ability, whether or not you're disabled, whether or not you're Pākehā, um, and lots of [01:28:00] different parts of your identity, whether or not you've reflected on them and thought about them, um, you're going to become a lot better at talking about them with people in your own communities and being respectful to people in maybe the more marginalised communities as well. Um, and that takes time and it doesn't mean you don't make mistakes, but, um, I think it's really important to, to reflect on as well. Um, to talk to all my friends, um, what they said, and to all the white people, my bank account number is 36. [01:28:30] That's how you can apologize for the war. Yeah, I'm not kidding. It's built to be paid. But no, thank you so much for coming, thank you so much for supporting Pride, and speaking on behalf of the board. Um, yeah, and listening, and supporting the multiple events that happened over the past two weeks, it's taken a lot of volunteers to, you know, do this. thing for free, and it's taken a lot of hours and arguments and beautiful conversations as well, um, and deals. [01:29:00] Um, but hopefully in the future when we talk about Pride, when we celebrate Pride, there's more intersections that are visible throughout the two week festival and throughout the year when we are celebrating, um, because it should not be limited to the two weeks here in Puneke, it should be celebrated throughout. The conversations should be had throughout the year until we are all liberated. Um, just really briefly, uh, um, celebrate your queerness, be proud about your queerness, um, but, [01:29:30] um, when you do so, do so with purpose, um, and that purpose should be related to the emancipation of LGBT people around the world. Amazing. Um, I really, uh, talk with Gina's, um, Fakaro about reflecting on your identities. I think it's so important that no matter what your identity is, know your history, and know where you come from, and know what you bring to a space. Whether that's a history of marginalization or [01:30:00] privilege, I think that's so important. Um, but other than that, thank you so much for coming along to Pride. Thank you for listening to our whakaaro. Please, as Chinwe said, look after yourselves. Um, sit with that uncomfortable. If you are Pākehā or white and you've really felt challenged, sit with that. Um, and have conversations about it. Um, and, you know, look after yourselves. It's been a, a long couple of weeks for us. It's been a long day for a lot of us. Um, and so we're gonna be taking a lot of time to care for ourselves over the next while, and I encourage you [01:30:30] to, um, if no one has any final, uh, thoughts or questions, I will close with Akia. Um, alright. Tu Mahi. Hau mie, huie, tai kie. Kia ora everybody, have a wonderful evening. Thank you so much, and if you're staying to help us pack out, I love you.

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TITLE: March for Trans Rights - Pōneke: interviews and march
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VOICES: Always Becominging; Leliel Trethowen; Mallory Stevenson; Tamatha Paul; Will Hansen; Willow Heron
INTERVIEWER: Regis Perez and Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2020s; Always Becominging; Aotearoa New Zealand; Caeden Tipler; Gay Liberation Front Christchurch; Grant Robertson; Irawhiti Takatāpui; Kāi Tahu; Leliel Trethowen; Mallory Stevenson; March for Trans Rights (2023); Member of Parliament; Parliament grounds; Pindi Hurring; Queer Endurance / Defiance; Regis Perez; School Strike for Climate; Sisters for Homophile Equality (SHE); Tamatha Paul; Wellington; Will Hansen; Willow Heron; access to health care; activism; erasure; fascism; free health care; gender activism; gender affirming healthcare; gender identity; gender politics; gender reassignment surgery; gender-affirming surgery; health; health care; health funding; health rights; health system; human rights; march; non-binary; performative allyship; solidarity; suicidal; suicide; surgery; takatāpui; trans; trans awareness; trans man; trans pride; trans woman; transphobia; waiata; waiting list
DATE: 11 February 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Audio from the March for Trans Rights, plus interviews with participants and onlookers. The march was held in Wellington on the 11 February 2023. Speeches before the march can be heard here. Marchers began in the grounds of Parliament, walked down Molesworth Street, into Lamton Quay, turned into Willis Street before ending in Civic Square. Marchers walked on the foot paths (rather than the roads).
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Kia ora, my name is Willow Heron. My, uh, pronouns are she, her, and I whakapapa to Kai Tahu, and I am whakawahine. I am the coordinator for the Pōneke March for Trans Healthcare and Trans Rights. Um, I am co coordinating this, uh, with Caden Tipler up in Tāmaki Makaurau. And, yeah, we're gathered here today to, uh, speak to Parliament about.. Uh, the hole which is currently in our healthcare pathways for transgender people and how we can bridge that gap and [00:00:30] provide support to vulnerable communities. Can you just describe, uh, where we are and, and what we see around us? Yeah, so we're currently at the Parliament steps and we are surrounded by, uh, Only one word I can use to describe as community, um, and I'm really stoked with the march has even started and we've already got a plethora of people who've turned up, so Yeah, really excited to see this kaupapa come into light and go underway. It's been a lot of planning, um, you know, both in the past few months of myself and the co coordinator planning, but also [00:01:00] historically, this fight started decades before most of us were even born. Why was it important to march today? Uh, yeah, I mean, as we're currently looking at, uh, The waitlist for accessing gender affirming surgeries, hormones and such, it has, it has for a long time now been completely inaccessible, not resilient, and we really need to change that. So I think this is a good time to be showing the government that we do need change, and we are here to make that change, and we're not going to [00:01:30] stop. Today we're going to stop once we have equitable healthcare. Today we're starting at Parliament. Where are we marching to? We'll be marching down Lambington Quay and to Civic Square where we'll disperse at the end. If a politician is listening to this, what would you like to say to them? Um, hear us. Listen to us. I don't need you to understand why we are the way we are, but I need you to respect us and provide us the care that we are demanding. For too long we have been neglected and that needs to [00:02:00] change. I am non binary. Oh, actually, I take that back. I use they, them pronouns. I don't necessarily, um, align myself with non binary necessarily, but either way I'm trans, and therefore this, um, affects me as it affects all the other trans youth, but it also affects me as much as it affects anyone else in Aotearoa, you know? Um, it's important. It's.. and we need to be heard, so that's why I'm here. Yeah. How would you encourage other people to [00:02:30] come out and join us on the march today? Um, use your voice however you can, however you feel strong enough to. You are stronger than you know, so use your voice. Um, I think that's really important. It's something I'm learning to do. Um, and try to be proud of who you are and find pride in maybe other people. Because there's a lot of pride around you, you know? And that sounded like a pride slogan, so um, Yeah, um, [00:03:00] yeah, it's really important to just Learn more about yourself and who you are in this world, especially in the world we're in today. Um, so yeah, I guess that's my answer. It's kind of broad, but yeah, yeah. What do you think are the biggest issues that the trans and non binary people are facing today in Aotearoa? Um, I would say erasure and I would just say, yeah, I would say erasure for the most part. We aren't hurt. Like, we need to be seen, we [00:03:30] are part of the population, we are the population, you know. And more and more people realize that by the day, that they are. Yeah, so, it's, it's everyone. Everyone needs to be heard. You know, yeah. If there was like a politician listening to this audio, what would you have to say to them? Um, use your voice and speak out even if you aren't necessarily part of our community. Our community needs to be heard. A lot of communities need to be heard, granted, but ours is one of them. [00:04:00] And, yeah, speak out even if it goes against what you know. Because it's what needs to happen. And, yeah. Uh, why do you guys think it's important for us to come here and show our support for the trans community? Well, uh, we've been pretty underfunded, you know, forever. Like, there's, as far as I know, there's one surgeon doing any trans related surgeries in the country. It's pretty abysmal. So, I, you know, [00:04:30] I think we really need to come show that, you know, we're not being represented properly. Yeah. I have to wait nine years just for a first appointment, for, you know, for the kind of healthcare I'm looking for, which, you know, really, in any other group would be completely unacceptable. Yeah. But, because it's not seen as essential at all, you know. It's kind of stuck. I guess like, yeah, trans healthcare rights are just human rights, [00:05:00] and people seem to forget that, or it's not really reflected in legislation and stuff like that. What do you guys think the first steps would be to improve the healthcare? I mean, we're already, like, getting some doctors from overseas because we're having the, you know, the shortage. So I think, I think while we're doing that, we, you know, we could definitely, like, try and encourage some surgeons to come over who have specialized in that area. And also.. Maybe, you know, have some kind of [00:05:30] incentive for people in New Zealand to train into that industry, because Yeah, one surgeon for a whole country is It's not good enough. Yeah I think also awareness of just the general public that this is an issue. Uh, what brings you guys out here today? Um, well you know, we've got trans family and questioning people of our own and this is a really important cause and it's great to be here, yeah. How would you guys [00:06:00] encourage other people to come out and join us in the march today? I know for certain people, coming out and supporting in person can be difficult, especially with COVID restrictions. But, you know, online presence is great. Spreading information, trying to combat misinformation, especially with some of the stuff around the law changes, is honestly the best thing people can do, I think. What do you guys think the biggest issues that the trans and non binary people are facing of Aotearoa are? I think, in terms of being able to get the [00:06:30] necessary surgeries and therapies at the moment, while better than other countries, it's still difficult here, and um, lots of people don't realize that unless it's affecting you personally. And so, it can be really hard if it's just you against the system, and that can be really difficult and really awful, but being here together in a community shows that you're not alone, and that's awesome. What do you think the steps are to progress to that sort of more equal space? Um, [00:07:00] I think education is a really, really big thing. Um, like I deal with lots of different communities, especially older people, and their hearts are in the right place, a lot of them, but they don't know the right things to say and that can scare them and they don't speak out when that really shouldn't be the biggest issue. Um, and then some people obviously are just.. Convinced by things that are simply untrue and so they generate all this hate when it really shouldn't be there, but um, you know Getting out there, showing ourselves, showing that we're not these big [00:07:30] scary people. Um, I think that'll help a lot in just raising awareness. Kia ora, ko Talia tōku ingoa. Uh, what brings you out here today? Um, trans rights, trans liberation, human rights, trans rights, same thing. Um, yeah, and I just really believe in the power of, um, of people and coming together and making ourselves visible. Um, yeah. Yeah. Um. How would you encourage other people to come out and [00:08:00] support this march today? Um, well, I'm always really concerned, like, specifically with my own communities, and um, so to the, like, Māori and Pasifika communities, I would say that trans rights are a really important part of decolonization work. Um, these identities are part of Pacific Māori identities, um, and I think that it's really important for reclamation work, um, to show up for those communities, yeah. If there [00:08:30] was a politician listening to this audio, would you have anything you would like to say to them? I would just say how disappointed I am to not see them here today. Yeah, yeah, I love that answer. Yeah, just like, it would be great to know that, that, um, people in, uh, the big house really care about us as well. Um, and by us, I mean all supporters of the trans community. But specifically the trans community. Yeah. Awesome. Do you have any ideas of what could improve for maybe specifically the healthcare system that we have? [00:09:00] Uh, my answer is going to be really skewed towards, um, believing in the Māori Health Authority. Um, because I think that healthcare from a te ao Māori indigenous worldview inherently includes trans health. So I would say co governance is the answer. Um. For, um, equity in healthcare. Hi, I'm, my name is Lelion Tretheau and I'm a trans woman working and living in Te Whanganui a Tara, [00:09:30] Wellington. And I'm here today because it has been an absolute f ing nightmare getting the healthcare I need. The system just doesn't work. The policies in theory are good, but the funding and access to make it reality is not there. Can you give me some examples of what's so mucked up about the system? Uh, getting onto hormone replacement therapy was fairly straightforward, because I happened to have enough money to go through a psychologist to get the letters I needed. And after [00:10:00] that it's very easy to maintain. Uh, getting onto the waitlist for GRS has been.. A nightmare, mostly because my doctor just doesn't know how. And then the actual waitlist itself is.. Uh, I might live to see the end of it. Probably not, though. It's ridiculous. So, when you're presented with those huge waitlists, I mean, how does that make you feel? It delayed me even trying to go on the waitlist by ten years, because what's the fucking point? I'll be dead before I get to the [00:10:30] front of it. If not of old age, well, there are other ways to wind up dead. And that's also leaving aside all the other parts of healthcare that are really important as well. Like, I haven't been able to get access to voice therapy, which I would find personally really useful. And other, facial feminization surgery, breast augmentation for me. As a trans femme would be, some of those I don't want, some of those I do want, but it's just, again, impossibly difficult to get. [00:11:00] And from all the trans men I've spoken to, the situation is no better for them. Do you think the situation has got better or worse, or is it just status quo? It's got better. Not in the sense that the system is really functional, but in the sense that there's a lot more awareness of how dysfunctional the system is. One of the particularly good things I saw was a study by Ministry of Health, and their announcement of extra funding. And that, yes, that funding would have cleared out the 30 or [00:11:30] 40 people on the waitlist at the time. Which then ballooned to 300. It showed just how much pent up demand there was. And it also shows in today's turnout for today's march. Can you just describe, for me, we're in Parliament grounds, can you describe, um, the people that have turned up and some of the signs? Uh, yeah, we've got a huge spectrum of people, from cis allies to all various forms of LGBTQIA plus people. Uh, [00:12:00] we've got trans women, trans men, non binary people. Just a huge.. All across the spectrum, all across the socio economic and age spectrum as well. It's a complete rainbow, quite honestly. Uh, we've got signs such as Hells Trans Youth, we've got Trans Rights are Human Rights. I'm personally carrying a Trans Solidarity flag from the International Socialist Organisation. Lots of flags from [00:12:30] lots of different people. What does it mean personally for you today to be marching? It means more chance of raising awareness, hope that maybe someone will address the system, someone in power, maybe they're listening, probably they're not. I can only hope. Well, hopefully in today's march, and also in these recordings, we'll be able to, to reach some of those politicians. That's fine. Actually. Do, do you know if any politicians are coming today? I honestly don't know. [00:13:00] I would speak, however, and call out Grant Robertson directly. I've had some enrollment with speaking to Grant Robertson about this, and that was not a particularly effective conversation. Also, as part of Queer Endurance Defiance, a queer rights group I'm part of, we had some engagement with the Associate and Minister of Health last year, which was pushed off as an operational matter and they were not interested in actually helping. And just finally, if politicians are [00:13:30] listening to this recording, what would you like to say to them? Do better. You've got the power. You can use it to help people. Please, use it. Help people. We need your help. So what brings you out here today? Helping our trans community march for what's right. If you could like, describe the atmosphere of this march today. I know it hasn't really started, but as of now, how would you describe it? Important. Yeah. That's what I'm feeling at the moment. [00:14:00] What brings you out here today? Um, to talk to the parliament and the government to make trans healthcare more accessible for everyone. Yeah. And what do you think the first steps for that happening are? I think accessibility is in maybe more education surrounding the public and medical professionals is a massive step. Not only getting more funds, um, but I think education is the biggest part. Yep. As a trans person going to, um, lots of GPs I've had so many [00:14:30] unsafe experiences and I think that's the biggest step that we could do. Yep. If you had an opportunity to talk to someone in parliament, what would you first say? Please understand this is a life and death situation. This is not just something we choose. Um, having had top surgery just seven weeks ago, I can see the impact that it's had on my life. It's been life changing. I can wake up and feel that I'm connected to my body. Um, yeah, please take us seriously. How would you describe the atmosphere of this march today?[00:15:00] Uh, it's lively, there's a lot going on, um, And, uh, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of us, a lot of colours, um, A lot of organising to do, but we're getting there, we're gonna get there, and we're gonna be loud and proud. Now! What do we want? Trans healthcare! When do we want it? Now! [00:15:30] I can see a lot of people, like, fighting for what's right and Doing what's right for today's generation. Um, I think it's amazing seeing everyone so loud and proud. I love it. I'm here for it. Can you, um, read some of the signs that are coming? Trans people have always been here. And that's facts. Care for trans people, I think they totally deserve more care, they deserve it. We fight today for a better tomorrow, I believe [00:16:00] in that. When do we want it? Trans rights are human rights. Trans rights are human rights. Trans rights are human rights. Trans rights are human rights. Trans health care is public health care. Trans health care is public health care. Trans health care is public health care. Trans health care is public health care. What do we want?[00:16:30] When do we want 20 trans male. And so this is very important. They get less access to a lot of care, there's very few surgeons that can perform surgeries for them, and therefore, I support them 100%. Trans [00:17:00] health is public health! Trans health is public health! Trans health is public health! Trans health is public health! Can you describe the scene? We've got, oh, several hundred people now marching down Langston Quay, shouting and screaming for trans health here, which is so long overdue. Can you describe the feeling? It's amazing, really energetic. You're watching which way we're going. I'm walking backwards in front of the crowd, and it is huge to hear everyone screaming. [00:17:30] Really good. Trans rights are human rights! Trans rights are human rights. Trans healthcare is public healthcare. Yeah, so we're demanding equitable trans healthcare. There are so many gaps in our healthcare system which are allowing people to fall through them. And thus we have disproportionate suicide rates, violence rates. People are turning to substance use. People are being, people are being attacked. We are demanding equitable healthcare. We are demanding justice for our [00:18:00] community. When you turn around and look at the march coming towards us, what do you, what do you feel? I feel community. I see community. This is a community of strong warriors. We've got healers, teachers. We have everyone in unison marching for a unified cause. What do we want? When do we want it? What do we want? When do we want it? My name is C, spelled C I, and we are [00:18:30] marching for trans rights and fighting for what's right for our trans communities. We are right at the front of the march here in Wellington. What is the feeling like? I feel very spiritual and I'm Taking a lot of people on board with me on this march today. Can you describe the crowd that's marching? Family, community, all fighting for what's right. If a politician was listening to this, what would you like to say to them?[00:19:00] There is a lot to be corrected here.[00:19:30] Heuri tēnei no Ngāti hoki. I'm here today just to be standing and marching in solidarity with our trans and i rawhiti whānau. And the energy is energetic and I feel like people, we all know that this is not good enough and that trans people deserve better. Um, trans healthcare is public healthcare. Can you describe the march today? How many people there are and what signs they're holding? So, there must be like a couple hundred, maybe, I don't know, I mean it feels like there's [00:20:00] 300, people. And, um, there are all sorts of signs of people just.. They're just fed up, fed up with these basic human rights being deprived for a particular part of our community. It's just wrong. Why was it important for you to be here today? Oh, just to show solidarity, um, as a, as a cis woman, um, yeah, just to show solidarity, to listen to the experiences and actually, you know, like, Just, just understand the [00:20:30] everyday realities for, for trans whānau whānau. What do we want? Trans health care! And when do we fucking want it? Now! What do we want? Trans health care! When do we want it? Now! More like fucking 20 years ago, are you kidding me? What do we want? Trans health [00:21:00] care! When do we want it? Now! Kia ora iti whānau, I fully did not plan on saying anything at the end of this, but I am just like, absolutely fucking blown away with the amount of turnout we've had, and the strong resilience of our community to come out here today and be visible. I understand how much you're putting on the line to, Be visible. I know you are sacrificing, you know, your, your safety and also your privacy by attending events like this. And I am [00:21:30] so tremendously grateful that you've all come out here today. I'm just, like, I'm just at a loss for words. You guys are all just amazing. Thank you so, so much. It is, I would be, like, really embarrassed if I started crying in front of all of you. But I, seriously, like, this has been something which has just been so close to my heart and I know so many of your hearts who are here. And I just, the amount of Aroha right now, I'm just, [00:22:00] wow, just, we better all be getting our designer coochies and our tits chopped off after this, like, are you kidding? Thank you, thank you all so much. Just to close, we thought we'd sing to Aroha. You all know the tune? Yes! Okay! Okay![00:22:30] [00:23:00] So I'm Luke. I'm a trans gay guy. Uh, and today we've been protesting for trans health care. Um, which is, you know, not too good in New Zealand and it obviously really needs to be better. So we're just kind of like, shoving it in their face and being like, you gotta deal with it. Um, and I've been leading, uh, some of the chants. [00:23:30] Uh, cause I was kind of in the middle and there wasn't like a megaphone or anything. So I've been doing that. Yeah, yeah, and I'm Toby. I'm non binary and it was really really cool to be a part of this experience today It was so cool to see such a large amount of like trans queer folk like marching through the streets Yeah, it was a really cool experience. What was that feeling like walking through Wellington like that? Uh, it's great It's like it's it's like the best form of anger you can get but it's like not even [00:24:00] anger. It's like A mix of that and happiness. It's like, aggressive happiness. And like, pride. And, you know, shoving it to him. You know, like, yeah. It was exhilarating, yeah. It was so cool to hear everyone chanting together and yelling together. And, like, Luke was yelling really loud. It was awesome, yeah. Had you been on other marches or other protests before? Uh, I've been on a climate strike. Um. When that was, uh, like, Two years ago? [00:24:30] Um, that was fun, yeah. Yeah, I've been on climate strikes and I'm involved with took school strike for climate, so I've done protests before, but I haven't been to a trans march before, so this was really nice. Is there any difference between, say, like, the climate march and the trans rally today? Is there a different feeling? Um, the amount of people is different, but with the feelings, I mean, this is just for me because, you know, uh, I have to deal with stuff like this, um, it's a lot more, [00:25:00] like, passionate and I don't, like, again, it's that weird aggressive happiness, like, you can't ignore us anymore, you know, yeah, just, yeah. Yeah, like, climate stuff is obviously very important, but with this Trans Rights March, I felt very personally connected to the issues that we were, um, talking about and protesting about, so it was, It was, yeah, it was really cool. It was, yeah, a different energy. So if a politician was hearing this, because I don't, I didn't see any politicians here today, eh? They don't bother. [00:25:30] I shouldn't say something too rude. No, go for it. Oh, they're pricks. I hate all of them. But if you, if you could say something directly to them, apart from them being pricks, what would that be? Um, can't ignore us anymore. Uh, you know, uh, face the music, um, we're not gonna let it go, um. I might seem, you know, angry and rude, but that might be that that is because of, you know, [00:26:00] how things are. I I in I don't think they deserve polite, Could you please do this? Could you please give us rights? I don't think they deserve that anymore, because it's been enough time. And, you know, people are dying, people are killing themselves, people are, you know. I've been close to it. Every, like, so many people have. And it's time to act up, and it's time for them to listen. Yeah, like, we're here, we're not going away, and we deserve to have just as good a quality of life as [00:26:30] everyone else in this country. Um, so it, you know, they really just need to do better. And they need to start listening to us, instead of being performative allies. Kyoto, it is the 11th of February, and I am here with.. Hi, my name is AJ. Hi, I'm George. Um, what brings you guys out here today? I personally, I want to be noticed. I want the government to notice us as a whole, as a community, to see that we're not going away, we're not a phase, we're not anything like that, we're going to [00:27:00] stay here and we will keep fighting and we will keep demanding until we get the access to the healthcare that we need. I wanted to be a part of the numbers, uh, you know, add, add my voice to the, um, to the many, many people here, uh, today asking for, um, accessible trans healthcare. Uh, what steps do you reckon that, uh, would provide that accessible healthcare for trans and non binary people of Aotearoa? There's a lot of things, really, and it sort of really does [00:27:30] depend on the, on the person as well. Cause depending on if they're, they're trans femme, trans masculine, or if they're non binary. Um, everybody needs different things, and not everybody wants all the surgeries, not everybody wants hormones or anything. Everybody needs different things to feel the way that they are. Shorter waitlists. Imagine being a young trans person. Uh, going through puberty and feeling like you're on a ticking clock, uh, you know, every, every month, [00:28:00] making your, your transition more difficult and, and making you, uh, you know, make, making the life that you've envisioned from yourself, uh, less, less likely, but, um, Especially since, um, you know, uh, you're watching your body turn into something that is just wrong. It's just this thing that you don't really recognize when you look in the mirror and you're just sort of horrified. Like, what is that? I don't recognize it. It's not [00:28:30] me. How would you encourage other people to come out, for example, like a day like today, to march with us and have their voices be heard? Even if it's just quietly in the back, you know, just kind of walking along, doing just even anything little can help, can go a long way. Just adding even one person can show that there's more people who need this, who need this help, who need this health care. It, it just shows that, you know, there's more of us and we're not trying to hide and [00:29:00] we're present and we will continue to fight. You know, when, when, when you have the, when you have the safety and, and confidence to do that and know that your trans Bono is, is here for you when you do. How would you say the turnout of today's event went? It went fantastically. I mean, I kind of hoped for a complete swarm of the, city center, but we got a good 400, 500 [00:29:30] people, I would guess, at an eyeball estimate, and that's pretty fucking excellent. That's awesome. And I, it was, you know, we had a lot of trans people, and everyone, and then a lot of cis allies as well, and everyone showing a lot of, showing a lot of strength, showing a lot of, um, determination to call for our rights as trans people, um, and It was a pretty diverse turnout, with trans people [00:30:00] at the front, and moderately trans women at the front as well, which was particularly important, because you don't always see that in pride events, um, and I think that's kind of essential when we are in Aotearoa in this colonial situation, and queer rights are inherently tied to the rights of indigenous people. What do you think are the biggest issues that trans and non binary people of Aotearoa face today? I mean, it's hard to know where to start, just the fundamental fact that [00:30:30] when you are, that all trans people experience this transphobic discrimination, and we are not, our humanity is denied to us when we are in the sense of basic. Like, we experience employment discrimination at enormous levels, um, and that you can't really track that, it's just like, Often it's just obvious that like, Most [00:31:00] places aren't gonna hire the kinds of people that a lot of trans people are, and a lot of businesses will be afraid of. Having someone who looks strange represent them. We are perceived as looking strange. We are subject to hatred and discrimination from members of the general public in terms of being, you know, anything from a funny look to having your parents tell you that you're going to hell and that you don't deserve to live. Um, [00:31:30] and it can be pretty terrifying. So, yeah, transphobia I guess is the fundamental issue, and healthcare in terms of what the state does is, I think, really the biggest thing, like, there's the cultural issues that I've described that will take complex, um, cultural change to, for us to get rid of, but what the government can absolutely do is just fucking fund our [00:32:00] health care more, give us, you know, people will have said that the waiting list for bottom surgery is like 12 years, I think, and there is.. In some DHVs, no access to publicly funded top surgery. Um, people either have to rely on, on family, on enormous wealth on their family's part, or rely on strenuous crowdfunding campaigns for tens of thousands of dollars, or save by working ridiculous hours. I personally am [00:32:30] having to take a year off of my university studies. Which I wouldn't otherwise want to do, so that I can save for my personal surgery because that would, I just wouldn't be able to live with myself if I wasn't doing everything I could to get that, to get that as fast as possible. But um, that's something that the government could really easily fix just by funding it. Do you think that um, funding would be the first [00:33:00] step to sort of, resolve? Um, or better the lives of trans and non binary people in healthcare, in the healthcare system? Yes, more funding, and I mean the public, the healthcare system in general. is experiencing a crisis of underfunding. Um, but trans healthcare, particularly within that, also, also because of the legacy of transphobia, the fact that this has never historically been viewed by the government as a priority, and it [00:33:30] absolutely should be viewed as a priority. Uh, I'm Frankie. And I'm Nick. So how does it feel to be out here today? Uh, pretty nervous, like, I consider myself non binary, but I'm still questioning that, I'm still figuring it out. Um, I can still consider myself very much an egg at the moment, so it was just nice to be here with my trans community. I definitely felt a bit anxious coming out, because I love being out and proud, but it can be difficult sometimes with [00:34:00] what's going on, but I'm proud I joined in. How would you two describe the atmosphere of today's event? A lot of joy, I would say, like definitely a lot of happiness of being together. I would say loving, yeah, loving. What do you think the biggest issues that affect trans and non binary people of Aotearoa are? Um, I know for myself it's definitely healthcare and being supported with mental health as well. It's very difficult for me as like, trans non binary mask to receive that support. [00:34:30] And I want to see my brothers and sisters and non binary friends get that support too. I would agree with what Nick said. What do you think the steps are to progress and to, um, Better fix our healthcare system at the moment. Probably the first step is just acknowledging it by the government. Because I feel like they're just ignoring it at the moment because they can just sweep it under the rug. And if they don't acknowledge it, we can't go anywhere. Kia ora, today I am here with.. [00:35:00] Will Hanson. Always becoming ing. What brings you out here today? I just wanted to, um, I mean, I'm trans, and we're both trans, and we wanted to just support, um, the people who are organizing it, and make sure that they've got numbers, and that they're feeling safe and good, and, um, just, yeah, that trans healthcare is important, and it's something that's affected both our lives a lot, um, so it was just important to come here and be supportive, yeah.[00:35:30] If you could describe the atmosphere of today, how would you describe it? Um, uh, it was pretty awesome. There were lots of people. My favorite part was, uh, doing the big march down the street because we took up the footpath. And it, uh, it made me feel really good, I guess, um, which is really nice. I've never been part of a trans protest before, um, so it felt fantastic to feel the solidarity and to listen to everyone's experiences. It felt really good. Yeah, it felt really good to see The general public [00:36:00] noticing us as well. What do you think the biggest issues that trans and non binary people have outed our face today? I think fascism, and I guess just the, the rise of the, the right and the ways that trans people are being targeted is really scary. And I think that everything that we're facing in terms of healthcare and, uh, like, legal rights and stuff is important. But, really, at the end of the day, if we're not [00:36:30] changing, um, like, society at a more fundamental level, and channel challenging those really malicious, um, ideologies, that that's the really important thing for me. How would you say the next steps are to progress? Um, to a better future for our, you know, takatapui, people of Aotearoa, even in like the healthcare system as well, how can the healthcare system progress further as well? Um, I think the most important thing is, is following takatapui, trans takatapui [00:37:00] especially, um, and just, uh, yeah, working in communities as much as possible and everyone supporting each other, um, you know, working, working with each other and listening with each other rather than paying more attention to what's going on externally. Um, I wanted to, is it okay if I say one more thing? I just wanted to put it on the record that, um, when I've been doing my study, I found that, uh, the earliest recorded protest, uh, for trans issues in New Zealand happened in [00:37:30] 1974 in Christchurch. It was a sit in outside the public toilets, um, organized by Pindy Hurring, who was a trans sex worker. And, uh, she had organized this group called the Transsexuals and Transvestites Union, uh, which was a subgroup of.. Christchurch Gay Liberation Front, and they did a protest outside these public toilets in Christchurch in 1974, and it was a collaborative sit in with the local lesbian feminist group, um, SHE, um, and I just think that it was really special to be part of a protest that's sitting now within that history. [00:38:00] And, um, we can have, have and acknowledge that history of, of queer solidarity, of lesbian, feminist, and trans activist solidarity. Um, and that it's, uh, yeah, important to honor, honor those, honor those histories of protest that we're now sitting in. Um, and, yeah, that's, I just wanted to put that on the, on the record. Thank you so much. That's really good to know. Okay. Thank you. We've just had a march protesting for trans rights, for trans medical healthcare, for the [00:38:30] trans community, which is so horribly undeserved, faces so much violence, from the healthcare system that's supposed to protect and we've just had a couple of hundred people march from Parliament, down Lampton Quay, and to the Civic Square, yelling and shouting about trans healthcare. It's been amazing. And just that feeling was, was incredible, wasn't it? Oh, it was absolutely incredible. So much energy, so much passion from the crowd. They've been an amazing group of people.[00:39:00] .

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TITLE: Speeches before the March for Trans Rights - Pōneke
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VOICES: Charlie Prout; Tristan-Cordelia; Willow Heron
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bowen Trust Board; COVID-19 face mask; Charlie Prout; International Socialist Organization (ISO); J. K. Rowling; March for Trans Rights (2023); Marxism; National Health Index (NHI) number; Parliament grounds; Queer Endurance / Defiance; Rita Yang; Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); Tristan-Cordelia; Wellington; Whangarei; Willow Heron; access to health care; capitalism; colonisation; decolonisation; exclusion; free health care; gender affirming healthcare; gender dysphoria; hate speech; health care; mastectomy; mental health; protest; puberty blockers; suicide; takatāpui; top surgery; trans; trans man; trans pride; trans visibility; trans woman; transgender; transition; transphobia; unionist; unions; waiting list; whakawahine; youth
DATE: 11 February 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Parliament grounds, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Speeches on the grounds of Parliament before the March for Trans Rights on 11 February 2023. A similar march happened in Auckland on the same day. Audio from the march and interviewees with participants and onlookers can be found here. Special thanks to the organisers and participants for allowing this event to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Kia ora everyone. Uh, we're gonna get underway in a little bit, but before we do that, we're gonna do one minute of silence for all the trans people who have been, have their lives destroyed by transphobia and are no longer with us. Uh, so we will start that now.[00:00:30] Thank you everyone. Kia ora everyone. Korako tukungua. I'm just gonna open us up with a karakia. Whakataka hau ki te uru. Whakataka and whoever wants to join me. is welcome to. Whakatakati hau ki te uru. Whakatakati hau ki te tōnga. Kia maa ki te uruta. Kia maa tara, [00:01:00] tara ki tai. E heiake ana. Te ātā kura hitio. Welcome everyone. [00:01:30] Um, we're all gathered here today. Show our support for better trans healthcare and our opposition to the current regime. Um, so we're going to go through some tikanga to make sure that we all stay safe and stay together. Um, first of all, we ask that everyone wears masks, um, so that we can look after each other. Um, obviously, if you're unable to wear a mask for health reasons, that is understandable. Um, this, one thing to keep in mind, this is a peaceful protest. Under [00:02:00] no circumstances will violence, hate speech, or vandalism be tolerated. Um, we also ask people when speaking or chanting not to use slurs of any kind. Um, If you want to refer to yourself as queer, that's okay, but please refrain from using other slurs in case they're triggering for other people. Um, if people try and mess with us, we ask that we don't engage in messing with them back. Um, don't try and ramp things up and cause a confrontation. [00:02:30] Just decelerate and stay together as well. If things get really bad and we have to.. Disperse, make sure that you leave peacefully, um, and don't leave alone. If you can help it, leave with other people, so that you can all look after each other. Um, and when we are walking, we ask that our trans elders, trans women and tangata irawhiti are at the front so they can be visible. Um, that is all of the [00:03:00] housekeeping that I have today. So I will hand it over to Willow to give us their speech. Kia ora, can everyone hear me okay? Awesome. Um, before I say anything, I do want to acknowledge that Maori never ceded sovereignty, um, and we are on stolen land right now. Uh, Ko Willow here in Tuka Ikoa, Ko Kai Tahu Tuka Iwi, He Whakawahini a Hau. I just want to say first and foremost, thank you all for coming out to Hikoi today. This all started with me sending a text to Kate and Tipler, co ordinated for the [00:03:30] Tamaki protest about my hopes for a display of our communities and needs for equitable care. And while this is my first time publicly advocating for this kaupapa, it has stood close to my heart since the early days of my transition at 15. Today would not be realized without the mahi behind the scenes from so many individuals across the board and the fight for our rights that was started by our elders long before most of us were even born. It is a tragedy that we have to stand here today in the first place. So to those who are no longer with us, I am so sorry you were not met with the aroha you deserved. You live on and we are gathered here today not [00:04:00] just as a community that faces disproportionate suicide statistics and violence but rather a community of fighters, survivors, teachers and healers ready to pave the way for our tamariki. I'd accorded over someone recently, Felix, about what is good enough in understanding another person and their experiences, and what that may look like. For example, we can never understand completely why one person favors blue over red, or pineapple versus no pineapple on pizza, but we can arrive at a threshold of good enough. This good enough carries a simple sentiment. [00:04:30] I may not understand you, but I respect you. I respect that you may like the color blue because your father did, or maybe you have a pineapple allergy, or maybe the color red triggers a primal response. It does not matter. I don't understand the exact nature of why you are the way you are, but I don't need to. I hear you, I believe you, and I think this is good enough. But as we can tell, this wānaka, unfortunately, is not about pizza toppings, or colours, or cosmetic superficial requests. We are here to demand, not ask, demand that we are listened to. So this [00:05:00] brings me to, this brings me to what does good enough look like in the context of trans healthcare. To me, good enough looks like tino rangatiratanga. In consultation with Takara Ivarapiti. To me, good enough looks like having access to life saving surgeries without question. To me, good enough looks like not having one more trans child lying awake at night, questioning if it would be easier for them to take their own life, rather than seek refuge in our broken healthcare system. We will never see a good enough when our rights are treated as casual debate topics, and our [00:05:30] bodies are the punchlines in the morning news. It is no surprise that this constant politicizing of our bodies has led to a health system that treats trans and rāwhitakata as disposable. I am 17 years old. As it currently stands, the requirement for gender affirming surgery is 18. And with a wait list of 12 years, need I tell you it was down from a century. The earliest age I will ever have access to a surgery that makes me feel at home in my body is 30. I will repeat, I am 17. And this is best case [00:06:00] scenario. I'm also considered one of the lucky ones. I was able to start puberty blockers three months after my first GP visit. After extensive psychological evaluation, of course. I have friends who have waited upwards of two years for this exact same medicine. Two years of heartache knowing you could stop the wrong puberty, if only. Two years of questioning, evaluating, criticizing, and interrogation from who is meant to be our medical professionals. I would not wish this excruciating, tedious, traumatic experience on anyone. No one should have to feel [00:06:30] unsafe in their own body, but this is the reality of being a trans youth in our country. Therefore, I will not sit back and watch our government kick their feet up and pat themselves on the back for their pathetic attempts at delivering resilient, accessible trans healthcare pathways for my community. A wait list of 12 years is nothing short of a death sentence. Neglecting our rural and socio economically dispositioned communities is violence, and the lack of iwi consultation in our healthcare pathways is not in line with Te To all [00:07:00] cis wānaka. Because we do not have the privilege to turn our day to day reality on and off. We need your allyship more than ever. Enchanting trans women are women is no longer acceptable. We cannot continue on like this. Our elders did not fight like hell for us to accept breadcrumbs. To our government, hear us now and hear us clear. We demand systemic change. We demand engaging with and listening to our community. Because as it stands, this is not, and never will [00:07:30] be, good enough. He iti te mokaroa, nā nā i kāte, kāhatia, māna takahatui, māna i rāwhiti, māna whakawahini. Kia ora, thank you for having me, and thank you for coming out today. Kia ora Willow. Um, can I now ask Ashton to come to the mic? Kia ora, [00:08:00] it's Ifano. Ang pagalan ko ay Ashton. Mananggaling At ngayon, masayang masayako. My name is Ashton. I was born in the Philippines. AFAB. My pronouns are he, they, sometimes she. Non binary, trans masc. And right now, I am really happy. It all began on the 21st of December, 2021. This was my birthday, and at this point in my time on this planet, I was having too many breakdowns and episodes regarding my dysphoria. Sorry if I cry. It stopped me [00:08:30] leaving the house. It stole my joy in too many moments. My anxiety and depression grew bigger than it ever has, so as a gift to myself, on my birthday, I started the daunting but exciting process of my Give a Little page. Throughout the months, the idea of finally getting my mastectomy pushed me forward and actually made me excited to think about living for the first time in a long time. When I moved to Te Whanganui a Tara, my intention was to work hard and save money, as my give a little page wasn't looking hopeful. I worked so hard [00:09:00] every day in a physically exhausting job for 40 hours per week to save money, and yet this was still not enough. In this economy, I thought I could save and be able to fund my trip to surgery to Thailand at the end of the year. Knowing I could not afford it in Aotearoa or even the thought of being on the waiting list scared me for my life and only recently finding out this has been paused in Te Whanganui a Tara. I tried every avenue to save money, considering sex work, selling everything I own. My mental health and a couple of relationships suffered in [00:09:30] 2022 through the process of scrambling for money and never getting the stress this had on me. I sacrificed those knowing that I had to live. I had to find the day. It was nearing the date I'd set for top surgery in Thailand. At this point, I was thinking of selling everything, my van, all my instruments, myself, just to get rid of the dysphoria my chest gave me. Luckily, my platonic partner, Nontha, always said if my plans didn't succeed, they would have my back. We got to the point where I had to ask for help, finally.[00:10:00] Through all that struggle, a year's worth of scrambling money and resources from friends, phano, from my income, I finally gathered enough money to go to Thailand. Fast forward to arriving in Thailand, anxiety was heightened, and not going to, not even knowing if you were going to be safe, in a clinic I'd never been before. I want to add, I was meant to have a support person in Thailand, but their mental health threw them back, so I went to Thailand by myself. Um, this was one of the most difficult decisions I had to make, because I knew not having a [00:10:30] support person post top surgery was very important. On 18th of December, 2022, I finally had my top surgery. And I thought, thank you, thank you, I'll show you, I'll show you later, ha ha ha, probably shouldn't show it here, um, and I thought, here comes the hard part. Luckily, before I went to surgery, I was very, very prepared and the hotel I was staying in for a week, I made sure everything I needed access to, I could grab with my T Rex arms. Including clothes, [00:11:00] food, medicine, lots of chocolate milk. I was scared that recovery would be really hard, and even with all the organization, recovery was really hard. Especially not having anyone there. Even just to hold me after surgery. And this again, I want to emphasize that if I had surgery in Aotearoa, I would have had my community to hold me, but I didn't. I had the surgery on the 18th of December, three days later was my birthday and I knew I was going to be alone and I was, and even though I could say that I went through it, [00:11:30] I did it. I could do things on my own. I would have really enjoyed a hug. I would have really enjoyed someone to shout at me. I did it on my own, but I would have really enjoyed some physical touch in those very emotional and physical vulnerable moments. Four days after that was Christmas, New Year's. I was by myself. So three days of the year, I usually was surrounded by my loved ones. I was by myself. I knew I made this choice. I could have postponed it, but it was a life and death situation for me. One thing that I could really say [00:12:00] that got me through all those days in isolated and recovery was touching my chest and feeling really grounded. Every time, I may have been alone, but this is the biggest gift I could have given to myself. I fought for this. But it doesn't have to be this way. If gender affirming healthcare was more accessible, it didn't have to be that way. And it makes me really hopeful to think about a future where our trans youth and gender non conforming pupils have access to this. If that could exist, [00:12:30] and I don't think the people, the government, and medical professionals are taking this seriously. And Aotearoa transgender people are twice as likely to attempt suicide than cisgender people. Transmental health matters. Transgender affirming healthcare is a life and death situation. Wedding lists kill. So all I want to say through my journey, where I am now. I'm only 7 weeks post op. I went for my first swim 2 weeks ago. Woo! I'm [00:13:00] still very privileged to have had a mastectomy. Even though it was hard and I suffered to still have had these connections and community and a physically able body. I'm still aware of my privileges. And not everyone has these privileges. And I mourn for the people who don't. I'm hopeful that they would listen to us. I'm hopeful that one day I will see a world where that would exist. I was having a corridor with my other partner, Bug, about what heaven looks like to me. And what heaven looks like to me is a community of trans and gender non conforming [00:13:30] people thriving, not just surviving. Surgery scars to mark our happiness and journeys. Laughter through the wars we've had to fight to exist. Um, trans kids playing, not having to worry about fitting in. Emotions shed into the open. And safe spaces and colors everywhere. My future kids, trans kids, trans adults, and elders, being free to grow and heal, together. This is what heaven looks like to me. Before I go, I do want to [00:14:00] say, thank you to my community, who was, who was always with me every step of the way, overseas. I don't know where I would be without you. Find your community. They will get you through. Also, trans cuties, I see you. I feel you. You are creating a world that never existed before. You are creating a world where life is possible. You are creating a world where there are no limits. To your happiness and mine. Keep doing you, keep shining. Aroha nui, ngā mihi for having me on [00:14:30] this stage. It's been an honor and a pleasure. Thank you. That was amazing. Um, we have, hi vis vests have arrived. Um, so, marshals will be wearing these orange hi vis vests. If you are feeling unsafe, For any reason, or worried about something, um, approach a marshal wearing an [00:15:00] orange hi vis vest. Um, Now I'm going to open the floor, um, Many of you will have had some horrible experiences trying to get health care through the system And we ask that anyone who feels comfortable doing so and you are welcome to come and share your experiences Speak to your community and we just ask that no one uses slurs other than referring to themselves as queer Or incites hatred in any way, which I trust that you all want [00:15:30] Um, so if anyone would like to come and speak, um, just in English. Kia ora koutou, my name is Charlie Prout. So, um, I had a very interesting journey in order to be able to get any sort of gender affirming healthcare. So, when I was 17, I went to my GP. I was like, so this was 11 years ago? 12 years ago? And.. I started discussing being able to, being able to access healthcare.[00:16:00] Mainly hormones is what I was interested in. And he referred me to an adolescent psychologist at hospital. This person had no experience of dealing with gender diverse people at all. Um, I recently, or a few years ago, I got my notes. And throughout the sessions, she continuously misgendered me, didn't understand diverse sexualities, any of that. She told me I basically couldn't get healthcare in New Zealand, and I had British citizenship, and advised me to move to Scotland. [00:16:30] I then moved to Scotland, 18, as a way of thinking I could get healthcare. They had a wait list of a year. She refused to refer me to the gender clinic. There's one, at that point in time, there was one gender clinic in Scotland. Which she then, it took months for me to get her to refer me to that clinic. By that time, I'd told my parents and they'd bought me a flight home. I came back to New Zealand, I was 18, I was 19. [00:17:00] And I again, went back to my GP. No idea about how to get gender affirming healthcare. No idea how to get hormones or get any of it. So then, referred me to Rainbow Youth, not a Wellington based organization, who then referred me to Transform, who thankfully referred me to Marnie Mitchell, who was able to get me into the endocrine clinic, and through that was able to get hormones. However, since that time, that the gender clinic, well, sorry, [00:17:30] the endocrine clinic at Wellington Hospital has forced psych assessments. Why should anybody have to get a psych assessment to get gender affirming healthcare that is reversible? So, in my books, so, and then, um, I, I am here where I am now, solely because I got in, I was able to get access through Evolve, and my nurse, I would say she saved my life. Right? And this is why healthcare should be based on informed [00:18:00] consent, and especially for trans mass people, if they want hormones. Their nurses can be the mental health support. You have to see them once a week. This you have a system where You have potentially somebody doing a psych assessment or something, but it's more your nurse checking in with you So you can and and being that support This is the direction that we should be going in for GPs being able to Provide hormones, and, and do [00:18:30] that. The other thing that's really kind of worrying to me, is the inconsistencies across the country. And the lack of information. So, I know Wellington has, um, so I was very lucky to get top surgery, and it was funded through Bowen Trust. Bowen Trust no longer funds top surgery because they had too much demand. Um, a big thing for me, would be.. People being able to access, so I think there's a lack of capability and capacity in the system. So there are surgeons who can do top surgery. There is not enough [00:19:00] money for them to be able to do it. That's what we need. Hutt Hospital is one of the best plastics place in the country. Why don't they do top surgery? They did for a little bit, and this is the problem is there's massive inconsistency in the system where they tell people they do it for a little bit, everybody rushes in, and there's just not this want to do it. So.. I say, informed consent healthcare, increase capacity and funding, and people should be able to go to their GP without being worried about [00:19:30] being misgendered. And the other thing is, sort out the fucking health systems, like the IT systems, so that when you update your gender with one place, it doesn't, um, it then updates all of them. So that you don't end up in an awkward situation like I had the other day where my NHI number hasn't been updated. So, I couldn't get a script, or I couldn't get a blood test for something, because there was an incongruity with the system, so that, um, the medtech system said male, but the [00:20:00] IT system said female, so it wouldn't print it out. Real basic things, they just need to give us more money to be able to do it. Good morning everyone. My name is Lilial. I am nearly 40 now and I'm a trans woman living in Wellington. And it has been 10 years of constant struggle dealing with a health system that just [00:20:30] does not have the money, does not have the care to get the health care I need. I got incredibly lucky and hormone replacement therapy was fairly easy for me, but That was straight luck. Everything else has just been struggle. I've been dealing with a doctor, lovely doctor, but he just doesn't know how to do things, what needs to be done, what the processes are, for a referral system that's never going to get me treatment in any reasonable time anyway. Willow was just talking about [00:21:00] the wait list, and the fact that that's come down. I will be nearly 50 by the time I get to the head of that wait list. If I get to the head of that wait list ever. If I can even get on the wait list. It is a system that does not work. It's been failing people for decades and it must change. Trans rights are human rights. Thank you. Thank you.[00:21:30] Welcome. Kia ora koutou. My name is Gwentian Margaret Saran Davies. I am a registered nurse. My journey to gain transition. Took four years. I was living in Dunedin. I came out to my GP. Who.. Let's refer you to [00:22:00] mental health services. Because we think you're crazy. I am not crazy. I know who I am. It then took two years before I saw a psychologist. Because I thought that this was the way. This was a lie. Informed consent is the way forward. Let me just take a breather, because this is getting a bit much. Um, from there, I saw a psychologist, not once, not twice, but three times. [00:22:30] Session one, I am trans. Session two, yup, still trans. Third time, still trans. I have that psychologist's report letter to this day with spelling inconsistencies, misgendering. This is from a health professional. Fast forward. To me moving back here to lovely Wellington. [00:23:00] I studied my master's degree in nursing, um, at Victoria University Wellington, Te Heranga Waka. Fantastic rainbow support, but.. Student health is not enough. A so called expert denied me for a while in order for me to get my, what I need, my hormones. Even when I presented evidence, peer reviewed, um, peer reviewed and researched for why I should be [00:23:30] on Zolidex. which is a hormone blocker and, um, progesterone to boost my transition, I was denied. I was infantilized and unlistened to whilst also studying and having health degrees. Even those who have them are not listened to. That leads me to my graduation. I am a registered nurse and I work for MHAIDS. Tell me what you want, and I will advocate for you. [00:24:00] I am loud and proud in my role as a health professional. Be loud. Welcome. Thank you. Um, Kyra Kartov, uh, my name is Vera [00:24:30] Ashbourne, and I'm, I'm a trans woman, she, her, and I'm speaking here for the International Bolshevik Tendency. We're here today to demand change to the system of trans healthcare in New Zealand. Every trans person here will have a story to tell about how desperately this change is needed. You've heard some, and you will hear more. The system is rife with pointless gatekeeping, endless referrals, invasive psychological questioning, ignorance, delays, and [00:25:00] discrimination. I was lucky with my HRT, and by that I mean I'm affluent and white. And it only took me seven months, only seven months from application to actually getting my, my first dose. I know people who've had to wait twice that or longer. I know people who've faced ridicule by doctors for showing up. Or who've had to start the whole process again because their paperwork has been lost in a clerical accident by the DHB. And this is just in and [00:25:30] around Wellington. In the regions it's even worse. The present model of healthcare is failing us, that's plain to see. And it's failing us on purpose. All these delays and all this gatekeeping are meant to address cis anxieties about trans people, not trans needs. We have to suffer and die because they think transition should be hard or else more people will want it. Fuck that. We need a total [00:26:00] We need a total overhaul of the healthcare system to put trans autonomy and needs front and center. We need trans people to be involved in setting the standards for our own care, not just as patients, but as equals and experts. We call for full, free, and fast trans healthcare on demand. And would that healthcare were our only problem. Trans people are systematically discriminated against in the workplace and the home. [00:26:30] Our lives are scarred and too often cut short by poor mental health, poverty, homelessness, abuse, sexual assault, and physical violence. Improving the condition of trans people will take more than just better health care. It will take a protracted struggle against discrimination, homelessness, poverty, and violence, and the establishment of a system of social support that will allow us independence. from the family and control over our lives. [00:27:00] In particular, we call on the union movement and working class militants to take up this fight, because this isn't a fight of trans people alone. We are Marxists and we recognize that the organized working class is the prime motor of progressive change in capitalist society. The whole public healthcare system is the fruit of decades of working class struggle. It wasn't given to us out of the goodness of capitalists hearts or the kindness of our government. It is the [00:27:30] decline in working class militancy, in a perspective that our rights are won through struggle against the bosses and their government and not by sitting down and compromising with them, that has led to the hollowing out of this medical system, which the government so often uses as an excuse for not doing anything to help us. It is absolutely necessary that the working class and its unions takes up the fight for trans rights and the struggle should be militant and uncompromising. The fight of one [00:28:00] section of the working class for its rights is the fight of the whole class. Our struggle is the struggle of all. We call for militant trade union struggle against trans discrimination in the workplace, the health system, and broader society, and for the involvement and leadership of trans workers in working class struggle. But under capitalism, every demand we win will never be safe. Our oppression is intimately linked to the maintenance of the nuclear family, and the whole system of social [00:28:30] reproduction that creates new generations of workers to exploit. We've all seen the anti trans movement on the rise in places like the US and the UK. We all know trans youth are being banned, and our public existence is under threat. It will come here. It has already started to come here. It is funded by the capitalist class because our rights are an inconvenience to their profits. And this brings us to the final demand on our signs today. [00:29:00] Only through overturning the system of private property and exploitation can our rights and lives be made safe. Only a society free of private privilege can be free of discrimination. Against the rising tide of hate and of fascism resurgent across the world, we say trans liberation through socialist revolution.[00:29:30] Thank you there are any tangata whenua or other members of the BIPOC community who really want to speak. Absolutely. Kia ora pai, kia koutou katoa. My name is Narita and I am from America. I've been in New Zealand for about four months. Um, and You know, like America's World Renowned for its healthcare, where like a broken pinkie and a down payment on the house are like about the same cost. Um, so it was like [00:30:00] really shocking to come here and learn like the amount of like loopholes and like how many hoops that trans people have to jump through here, considering that like you can get hit by a car and be fine, but it's somehow going to take you seven months to get an appointment. Like that's weird. That's weird, Bestie. And it's something that the standard.. here in the states is still very much the denial of trans people's like right to autonomy still in that is [00:30:30] still the fear of it and again I would like to reiterate that it is very much that like people are afraid that trans people regret their transition or that's it's something that will somehow take from their quality of life where I have been on hormones for about 18 months ish and prior to this like I I couldn't even, like, eat because I was, like, feeding a home that wasn't mine, if that made sense. Like, everything I gave to myself, every [00:31:00] time I worked out, it just became, my body became something that wasn't comfortable for me. And if the stigma wasn't there for being trans, if people, if I didn't have to fight my family and my community, it's something that I would have started earlier. And it's something that so many trans people don't start because of.. That type of stigma, and it's something like, as a black person, and to my indigenous people out there as well, like, this is a denial of our heritage. This is a [00:31:30] denial of something that is older than colonization, that is older than whiteness, that we are owed. It is not something that is, should be allowed to be taken from us, because it is something that is inherent to our existence. To treat cisness and straightness as the norm is.. It's not true. It's just, it's an, like, to say that transness is not an objective reality to the human existence is something that is, again, a byproduct of colonization and something we need to take the time to unlearn and undo, and it's [00:32:00] something that New Zealand is on the forefront in the world of Most things, if I'm going to be completely honest, and it's hard for me to wrap my head around because America is so, like, ass backwards. So, like, being here is such a beautiful experience, and it's something that trans people are owed that experience as well. That denial of is unacceptable. It is something that, as trans people, we are owed love, and kindness, and joy, and bliss, just as everyone [00:32:30] else is. And hormones are not just cosmetic. As great as my face may be glowing, like, after starting estrogen, I think the best side benefit is like, I like eating now. And going on runs is fun. And hanging out with my friends is great. Like, wearing clothes that fit my body is so exciting now. As opposed to something where it was like a chore. So when they deny us health care, when they deny us our humanity, they're denying us our like, right to joy. [00:33:00] And that's something that is whack, to put it in better terms. Um, and I'm grateful for this opportunity to speak here, and I'm grateful for everyone that's shown up. It's truly, it warms my heart, and I know that if there's anywhere in the world that this shit is possible, it's here. New Zealand gives a shit, it needs to give more shits, about us, specifically. But it will get there if we fight the hard fight.[00:33:30] Kia ora, my name is Te Ari. Um, I stand here as tangata whenua. I'm, uh, kukiairani as well. I, um, I'm trans and I try to put myself out there for all of our tipuna who couldn't be themselves, who were themselves, [00:34:00] and it was really tough. Um, especially my Taranaki tipuna. Um, and that, you know, we deserve quality, uh, healthcare, not just healthcare, quality, um, and having the strength and authority to have that and own it and navigate that ourselves. [00:34:30] Um, and yeah, I just, um. I'm grateful to be here supporting the kaupapa, um, it's a beautiful day. Thank you. Kia ora. Welcome. Kia ora, my name's Oram. Um, I am a midwife down at Wellington Hospital. Um, I'm also non binary and I just wanted to offer my apologies to anyone who's had to encounter the maternity system in New [00:35:00] Zealand. Um, Working in it as a genderqueer person is hard enough and I can't imagine how honestly shit it must have been going through that as a trans or genderqueer person. Um, we are taught, it's drilled into us as students, that you are with women when they are birthing. Women are not the only people who have babies. [00:35:30] You get a baby at the end, and you have a family, and that's it. That family looks different for everybody, but women are not the only people that give birth. Um, I also have my lovely wife to be, Kōtari, up here with me. Um, so we're having a very gay wedding in two weeks. Um, but my very sincere apologies. Um, a week ago. We [00:36:00] lost a dear colleague, Lou, up in Auckland, um, very tragically to suicide. Um, they worked closely with a lot of genderqueer academics in perinatal care to improve the system for everybody. Um, and it's been a huge loss for anyone who knew them and who will have anything to do with reproductive healthcare.[00:36:30] So thank you all for being here. Kia ora. Just gonna keep this brief. Um, kia ora koutou katoa. Um, grateful to be here. I'm, um, non binary, Maori, [00:37:00] um, Pacific Islander, um, and a house student at Victoria University. Um, I, I haven't started my journey yet. But that doesn't make me, um, less trans, I am, we are, for those who don't know already, we are trans enough, and [00:37:30] at the same time we're, we're, many, not, um, those things aren't divided from each other, um, and, um, this year I'm wanting to start that journey Um, and ready to, um, start taking hormones. But, that's, I've been on a bit [00:38:00] of a waiting list for a while. Um, and there's been lots of, um, keeping behind the scenes and me not feeling like, I have to constantly question myself and then build myself back up again. Um, but I will keep fighting. For who I am and have strength in that, and the people around me as well in my life.[00:38:30] And the community that surrounds me. Um, that's all I have, but I just wanted to remind, um, all of us out there who haven't started, um, our transition journey yet. That we are, we've always been trans enough. Um, I hope that, um, you have the support around you that [00:39:00] will, um, or the people around you that will, um, are for you all the way. Thank you. Sorry, I have been made fun of. Amazing. Um, Kiora, I just want to, like, quickly jump in and just say, hearing all of your whakaaro is just so valuable and, Nothing else comes to mind other than the word community right [00:39:30] now. And this is such a strong show of community and I'm just so grateful to be a part of it. And to be able to have this collaboration of our voices is just so beyond valuable. I can't put it into words. Um, but I did just want to quickly come up here and say that, um, there are a few people going around photographing, taking photos at the moment and we're operating on a thumbs up, thumbs down system where if you see someone taking your photo and you're not comfortable with that because there's.. Privacy or safety reasons or whatever. Just give them a thumbs down and that will be [00:40:00] respected. Um, and any photos that are taken of you, if you give a thumbs up, um, personally contact me on Instagram or I will be sharing a Dropbox link, etc. Um, later down the road once we receive photos. Kia ora, thank you. Hello everyone. My, uh, my name's Riley. My, uh, my journey, uh, to, uh, for getting healthcare, [00:40:30] it started, uh, two years ago. I was 15. I, uh, I was lucky that, you know, my parents had already been, uh, sending me to a therapist. And so, uh, you know, I, I came out to my therapist. And, uh, she arranged, you know, a meeting, you know, with my parents to come out to them. And, you know, I, I remember it was a, it was a pretty rainy evening and that gave me a good excuse to wear a big, bulky jacket. And so, I, and [00:41:00] so I just, uh, it's like, uh, I'm Ch Ch Ch Ch Chans, you know. I was very nervous. And, uh, they were, uh, Both of them were basically shocked and horrified and, you know, and I, uh, and uh, after that I spent, you know, night after [00:41:30] night with them having these horrendous arguments back and forth for hours about. You know, about getting health care, and my, you know, my mom was big into, you know, JK Rowling and that whole turf scene, and, you know, I, uh, and so I, uh, I waited [00:42:00] until my 16th birthday, and, uh, I went to my GP in secret, and uh, then it, from there it took me another ten months to see someone and, you know, all through that whole process, I felt so alone, and so terrified, and I was struggling with thoughts of killing myself, constantly. And I, uh, I remember one night, you [00:42:30] know, being, you know, many, being, you know, in the, uh, in the ER and such, and I, basically getting yelled at by the, uh, crisis mental health people to just piss off, basically. That if you, that, we will only see you if you If you attempt and survive, then maybe you can get help. And, yeah. [00:43:00] And then, you know, my existing referral was cancelled and I only found out months later. So I, yeah, so I lost a lot of time there. In the end, I, uh, I did get to, uh, you know, go on estrogen, and I, I was really lucky, you know, to find people who, who cared about me and who loved me. But at the time, I just felt so alone and [00:43:30] so disgusted with myself. That's, you know, healthcare, it saved my life. And it's so important. Thank you for listening. Welcome. Hey, um, my name is Fox Levine. Um, [00:44:00] I have notes on my phone. Um, I'm American originally. Um, I'm Jewish. I'm transmasc nonbinary. Um, I'm new to Wellington, but I lived in Fongaday for the past four years, which is where I started my transition. Um, I was lucky enough to miraculously, um, be seen for, for top surgery, um, in about a year after being put on the, on the list. Um, I was very vocal, um, and outspoken about getting on it as soon as physically possible because [00:44:30] I, I knew what I was looking at, what I could expect in the future. Um, when my surgery time came around last February, I was, you know, overjoyed. Um, I had been a little bit pressured into the type of surgery that I had. I knew that my, um, My surgeon had very little experience specifically with, with trans people. Um, and I went into it anyway because I knew that there was absolutely no chance on God that I could ever afford to pay for it myself. Um, and I would do anything to get out of that hell. [00:45:00] Um, I don't regret doing it, but my God, we need not just healthcare, but quality healthcare. We need to train people, not just send whoever out to do it, because that's really what this felt like for me. Um, After surgery, I remember specifically saying to the nurse, um, You know, what do I do? Um, how do I take care of myself? I was as knowledgeable as I could be because, you know, we all have to be knowledgeable. Um, and I remember her saying something along the lines of, Oh, we used to have a [00:45:30] booklet for that. We should probably have one of those again. Yeah, you probably should. Um, but from there it was really all downhill. Um, they gave me an ill fitting compression garment which they refused to replace. Um, compression is very important post top surgery. Um, I was basically left, I, I went back home, I have my surgery in Auckland, I went back home to Whangarei to a healthcare team that had no idea what to do, they had never seen anybody like me, they had never seen anybody recovering from this surgery before. And the [00:46:00] nurses that took care of me, God bless them, I'm, I'm sure if they, if they had been educated they might have done better. But they, they mistimed everything, they, they really mishandled everything, and I was left, after all of that, to take my own stitches out. Laying there in bed, sweating, you know, high on, you know, the drugs that they had given me, desperate, because I knew that it had been too long, they had dried into my body. It was horrific. I had to pay for all of my, my support stuff myself, all of my bandages, my, my, my [00:46:30] betadine, my, my compression garments that I had to buy myself afterwards. It was, it was months of hell. I had an infection afterwards that they kept brushing off. Nobody had seen any, anybody like me. And during this, I had, I had to take a break from tutoring students. I'm an, I'm an art tutor. One of my students was trans. And they were asking me, Can I do this? Is there hope for me to do this? And I didn't know what to tell them. Because I, I want to see, I want to [00:47:00] see the young trans people in our communities having not just healthcare but good healthcare, where they can really be taken care of. This is a vulnerable moment for all of us, if we're lucky enough to ever get there. I'm sick of feeling like my own doctor, and you shouldn't have to be your own doctors either. I'm gonna call on two more speakers.[00:47:30] Uh, kia ora koutou katoa. Who I am isn't important because I'm not here to talk about myself. I'm here to talk about this building that we are in front of. For too long, the governments that have sat in this building, Labour, National, or anybody else, none of, they have all sat on the laurels of what we have done in our past. They celebrate us as a progressive sanctuary. For something we [00:48:00] did in the 1800s. So I ask, when, so I ask to this government specifically, Mr. Prime Minister, if you're focusing on bread and butter issues, when will transgender lives be bread and butter issues? How much more do we have to prove to you that we deserve to be taken seriously? Thank[00:48:30] Um, no arangi ahau, uh, ko Charlie ahau. Uh, so my name is Charlie and I come from Fielding. Uh, I just wanted to speak today, uh, I wanted to totokoi what everybody has said. Thank you very much for sharing. Um, I think it's really important that we have these kinds of opportunities so that they can't say that they don't know what trans people are going through, right? So, I just wanted to say that. [00:49:00] Um, but also I wanted to bring up the point of top surgeries. Uh, so, they, the government recently announced the transgender genital fund. One thing that is not included is top surgeries. And that makes up a huge amount of trans surgeries, and it's not being funded. And, unless you didn't know, under Capital Coast, there is nobody that is here providing publicly funded top surgeries. Everybody has to go [00:49:30] outside of the district to get it done. There is one person in New Zealand that is providing these genital surgeries, and that's Dr. Eddie Yang. Obviously, I want to say a huge thank you to all of the trans supportive and trans people that are in the medical service. Like, they're doing so much good, and I really appreciate that. Um, I really think that top surgeries need to be part of these. Funded surgeries. Um, [00:50:00] and I've been transitioning since 2018. The loop, the, the obstacles that it takes to get on HRT are the exact same as they were like five years ago. Nothing is changing and that's not good enough. And, and just before I go as well, I just wanted to say like, do some research. I know everybody has their experiences and that's really important. If there's [00:50:30] anything that can give us hope, it's looking at what trans elders have done and seeing the amount of struggles that they've overcome to get to where we are today. If you look at everything, like further back than Stonewall, you know, we've been doing so much stuff for so long and trans people are always at the front of queer, like big changes in history. You know, I'm talking about stuff with AIDS [00:51:00] as well. We need to do research so that we can see we've done so much and we can do even more. So, trust in your brothers and sisters and your non binary friends as well. We can make a huge change and I believe in us. Kia ora. Welcome. Kia ora. [00:51:30] Get angry. If a child was struggling with maths, we would not make them wait two years for remedial, uh, coaching. It's not hard to support children. If people really cared about whether you might regret transitioning, wouldn't they check in with you every few months to see how that's going on? Wouldn't they be just as concerned that some people might miss out? If regret was that important, wouldn't we have this conversation with every child [00:52:00] as easily and naturally as you ask them, What do you want to be when you grow up? Why isn't that part of the question? What do you want to be when you grow up? Don't buy into the excuses and deflections. We pay female athletes a tenth of what we pay male athletes. So if we suddenly care about protecting and supporting women's sports, then we have bigger issues than excluding trans athletes. We can talk [00:52:30] about that, sure, but after we talk about pay equality, sponsorship opportunities, and access to coaching. My name or who I am doesn't matter. I'm an ally. This isn't my story, but I can tell you a couple of things from my experience. When you're actually being shot at, and I have been, you don't give a damn if your ally's wearing lip gloss. If you're trying to save a patient's life, as I have been, you don't care if your colleague has painted nails on under their surgical [00:53:00] gloves. It's not hard care. This is not about special treatment. It's about exclusion. Get angry, and we'll get angry with you. Joe. Um, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna run through our tikanga again before we walk, and then I'm gonna call on Ashton to introduce our chants. Um, so main thing is, [00:53:30] um, we ask everyone to continue wearing masks. Um, do we still have some spare masks? Yes, we do. Um, over here. Um, secondly, trans elders, trans women and tangata irawhiti to the front. We want to, um, give space for people to be visible, um, who are the most commonly targeted. Um, because we, we will also stand up. [00:54:00] Um, most importantly, this is a peaceful protest. We don't want anyone escalating anything. So if people are attacking us, um, deescalate as best as you can. Stick together. Um, if things get really bad, um, I don't expect them to, but that's always a possibility. And we do need to disperse. Make sure that you disperse with others. Um, don't leave yourself open by walking off alone, uh, if you can help it. [00:54:30] Um, We have marshals in these orange hivers vests. If you are feeling unsafe, you can approach a marshal. Um, we ask people not to interact with any hecklers or members of the public who are being actively transphobic. Um, And again, if someone is taking, um, someone is, wants to take a photo, um, give them a thumbs up if you're comfortable with it, thumbs down if you are not comfortable with it. Um, sorry to everyone who did not get to speak. Um, we all have a lot of experiences [00:55:00] and I really wish I could give space to everyone. Um, now I'm going to call on Ashton to talk us through the chants we're going to do. Kia ora koutou, you ready to be loud? Yeah! We've got, um, four chants. Somehow simple. I'm going to introduce two and practice with you and I'll pass it on to Mallory and introduce the other two. Um, so, my first one is, what do we want? I'll say that. You say, trans healthcare. When do we want it? And [00:55:30] you say, now. Cupwight? Okay, we'll practice. What do we want it? Now! What do we want? Trans healthcare! When do we want it? Now! Cupwight. Well done. Okay, the next one is just, trans healthcare saves lives. So just be like, trans healthcare saves lives. Okay. You ready? Healthcare save. Trans healthcare saves lives. Trans healthcare, saves lives. Trans healthcare, saves lives. Trans healthcare. Save. Come on, come [00:56:00] on me. I'll pass it on to Mallory. Um, can, and Mallory. Um, so first train of got here. You just repeat that after me. My name is Rafi T, my name is Faka Wahine, my name is Iratane. My name is Rafi T, my name is Faka Wahine. Can you, am I not loud enough? Okay, one uh, [00:56:30] one part at a time, okay. Mana Irafiti! Mana Fakawahine! Mana Tongata Iratane! Okay, and now again, I'll break this one into two parts. Trans rights are human rights! Trans healthcare is public healthcare! Trans rights are human rights! Trans rights are human rights. Trans healthcare is public healthcare. Trans [00:57:00] healthcare is public healthcare.

IRN: 3574
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/the_beginnings_of_pridenz.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004702
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093092
TITLE: The beginnings of PrideNZ. com
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Gareth Watkins
INTERVIEWER: Alison Day
TAGS: 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; 2020s; Alison Day; Aotearoa New Zealand; Arkansas; Gareth Watkins; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Library of Congress; National Library of New Zealand; Rutherford House; United States of America; Wellington; access; archives; freespeech. org; gay; history; pridenz. com
DATE: 7 February 2023
YEAR: 2023
LOCATION: Rutherford House, 33 Bunny Street, Wellington, Wellington
CONTEXT: Alison Day interviews Gareth Watkins, the founder of PrideNZ, about the website and how it came about. Alison is currently a Doctoral candidate at the School of Information Management at Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington. Alison is investigating what has been put in place over time to document LGBTTFIQ communities by GLAMU (Galleries, Libraries, Archives, Museums and Universities) and the subsequent effects on LGBTTFIQ independent archiving. The second part of the research will look into the nature of the relationships that exist between LGBTTFIQ donors, LGBTTFIQ independent archives and GLAMU institutions.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So pride NZ, uh, really was, uh, very organic. And it started way back in the 19 nineties, I think. Uh, so I began in public media in, uh, 1990. Uh, and I came out as gay in 1992. Um, and around about 1995 I really wanted to start making documentaries around the gay experience because at the time, there was no internet, uh, getting kind of, [00:00:30] um, experiences or hearing experiences of what it was like to be rainbow in a rainbow community. I found really hard. Um, there was some broadcasting, Uh, there was a community radio station in Wellington called Wellington Access Radio that had both, um, a lesbian programme and a gay programme on it. Um, and as a, um, technician in, um um in, In, in broadcasting. Um, I actually worked on some of those broadcasts. It was one of the things you did. Um, at the time, I wasn't out, and it was quite [00:01:00] interesting because I always felt kind of like to be associated with a gay programme. Was just like, Oh, my God. You know, um and and I think you know, it just shows you how um, ingrained and entrenched homophobia is and you don't even realise it when you're growing up. And then, you know, when you're put in those positions, it's like, Oh, you know, going into the same studio, you know, I suddenly turn, don't know. Um but yeah. So mid nineties I, I started thinking, Oh, I really want to, you know, kind of understand [00:01:30] myself, understand community. So I started doing, um, some audio documentaries and I tried to approach Radio New Zealand and say, Can we broad? You know, would you like to broadcast these? And I got a very stern no, uh, from a, um, a radio executive saying that, you know, if we give, uh, a broadcast opportunity to one community, then other communities will want it to. I was thinking, Well, what's wrong with that? But it's It's like actually, no, we can't. We can't allow single [00:02:00] communities to have a voice. Um, which that kind of rejection, um, didn't stop me. It it kind of spurred me on. And this was at a time when the internet was very, very new. And so I started doing documentaries, putting them onto CD and sending them overseas to overseas broadcasters. So there was a um, for instance, there's a There's a queer radio station in Melbourne called, uh, joy FM. Uh, there was a syndicated news programme called This Way Out. I think that came from [00:02:30] Los Angeles. Um and so I was kind of distributing that way. And then in around 97 the Internet started developing streaming services. So it's amazing to think about nowadays that there aren't the the, you know, for a long time there weren't streaming services. Um, but 1997 there was a website called free speech dot org. And that was user generated content, uh, multimedia content for the first [00:03:00] time ever. First site to ever do it. Um, and so I started putting my documentaries on that. So not not only was I, um, supplying broadcasters and and private individuals with copies of the documentaries, but also, um uh, via via streaming as well. And it was just that idea of, um, wanting not to be alone, you know, wanting to understand myself, wanting to understand my place. Um, and also the people I was talking to had the [00:03:30] most amazing lives, You know, that that they were so rich and so interesting. And, um, it was such a kind of an untapped area. And I thought RNZ was so foolish not to, not to to tap into that area. And nowadays, of course, you know, 20 twenties. Um, diversity is all the thing, and And you think actually, um, those voices were always there. You just weren't listening. Well, you weren't listening well, more than you weren't listening. You You're actually actively saying no. We don't [00:04:00] want to hear you. Um, so that's that. That's kind of interesting. So jumping forward, uh, we had, uh the internet was getting more and more connected. And, um, by the kind of two thousands streaming, uh, was becoming a lot more kind of financially, um, available, uh, so that that that that was the kind of technology side, um, running alongside that, uh, I was still in public radio. Uh, I was, uh, moving into community [00:04:30] access radio, and that was a really interesting area, because in 2006, I made a documentary on homosexual law reform. So that happened in 1985 1986 in New Zealand. And it was a 20 years, 20 year retrospective. And what I found was that, um, being in the public broadcaster, I was able to get into the Public Broadcasters archive, and what I found was that they only had, um, audio of politicians [00:05:00] speaking about the community. They had people talking about the community. They didn't have any kind of community events or audio from the community. And this is where the wonderful lesbian and gay archives came in. Because the lesbian and gay archives held lots of audio, uh, from community members who had gone out and done recordings for things like gay BC and the Lesbian Community Programme on radio. And they had gone and had [00:05:30] been at events, been at rallies, been at protests, and it really just showed me that actually, the state broadcaster was recording one point of view, but it wasn't necessarily the community's point of view. And so this is the benefit of access community stations. And this is the benefit of community archives that actually, um if you were just to rely on the state archive, um, or archives you you're not going to get the [00:06:00] full picture. So 2006, that was and then I actually moved into being programme director at Wellington Access Radio, which gave me the opportunity of doing a Churchill fellowship. And so I went to California, and this is in 2008, uh, 2007, 2008. And I looked at community media in California, and that was amazing. I mean, there were there were so many amazing initiatives that were happening, and [00:06:30] a lot of it was just grassroots. Um, you know that people have an idea, and they just they just went for it. And, you know, there were things like, um uh, youth radio in Oakland, which had started just through the idea of one journalist saying, We want more kind of youth voices. And by the time I saw it in 2008, it was a kind of a multi story, a holistic broadcaster. But more than a broadcaster had offered support services for youth in Oakland. [00:07:00] Just amazing amazing things. And I came back from that. And the biggest kind of takeaway was, um, actually at the end when I was in the, uh, San Francisco airport and there was a, um, uh, a banner that said, um, change is inevitable growth is optional. And I thought yes, absolutely. Because what all those media outlets in California taught me was that change was coming or change is always happening. Um, and [00:07:30] there is an opportunity for new media creators to be creating things. This is really the growth of, um, kind of Internet distribution of content. You know, this is where we're starting to see the the the startings of, like YouTube and the social media sites and really taking the power out of, um, kind of state broadcasters or corporate broadcasters and giving it to the individual really exciting stuff. So I came back 2008, [00:08:00] and I applied to New Zealand on air for funding to set up Initially, Um, it was called pride NZ dot com, and it was going to be a syndicated radio show on the access stations for Rainbow content. And it was going to be the first ever syndicated radio show across 12 stations weekly, uh, with regional reporters doing stuff and I applied twice and twice got rejected. And the big thing from New [00:08:30] Zealand on air was you need to find a commercial, um, partner radio station like, uh, a a commercial network. Say, like M or B, uh, to give the audience. You know, we don't want to support a minority thing That's not going to be heard by a lot of people. I've always thought that actually, that was the reason for New Zealand on air they would support stuff that wouldn't be commercially viable. Um, but, um, in this case, that that didn't didn't happen. Um, and it was going to be a radio show, [00:09:00] but it was also going to be a website, and they were again. It would be that that first kind of stages of web interaction where people are interacting with websites, commenting, sharing all that kind of stuff, One of the things with rejection that can either knock you down or it can actually inspire you to keep and keep going and doing something else. So, actually, when I think of, you know, the rejection from Radio New Zealand in terms of not wanting to have, um queer content on and the rejection [00:09:30] of New Zealand on air inspired me to to just do it myself. And, um, that's the kind of the genesis of pride and Z, uh, that I then got a domain name in 2009 and started very much just putting up, um, the documentaries I've done in the nineties and then kind of built from there. Um, and it was very much organic, so I didn't quite know what it was at the start. And it was just like, Well, just keep keep doing stuff and keep, you know, trying it. And, um [00:10:00] and and and basically that that how it came into being Wow. So was that just, um, just you or was anybody else involved in the initial setup, or is anybody else ever been involved with you? Uh uh. Primarily it's it's been just just me. Um and that has been a bit of a conscious decision, because at the time I was at Wellington access Radio in the mid two thousands, I saw how community organisations can really implode, [00:10:30] um, through, you know, whether it's a, um, an incorporated society or a trust that actually, um, in a lot of communities, there are a lot of many different voices, and they can actually be quite, um, corrosive, um, as well as supportive. But my experiences that had been, um, that that actually, a lot of time is spent, and a lot of things can just stop. So, II, I thought, actually, I just wanna start it. Keep going with it, um, [00:11:00] and not kind of build it into a kind of a huge structure and not put it into a kind of society form. Um, and And I think back on the, um, the the the media outlets in California. And that was very much they were community, um, focused, but they had a professional layer core staff, you know, basically the technology professionally run. But it was very much community focused. And, you know, that's the kind of model that I really [00:11:30] was interested in in in, in looking at, um, so I, I never really kind of went down that kind of trust or incorporated society. I can see real benefits for it, but I've I've also seen things that just, you know, completely wipe out, um, or suck, You know, the life out of things. Um and I thought I, I just I don't want to be a part of that. I wanna I wanna create something that's positive. That is useful. Um, and I want to put all my energy into that kind of pushing forward, [00:12:00] you know, rather than kind of, um, litigating this or that, Um, so I am, I guess, the whole curatorial side of things and what's recorded and what's not recorded, I'm sure. You know, in 2030 years time, somebody will come back and say, Oh, you know, you should have been doing this, or you should have been doing that. And I think, Well, no one was stopping anyone else from doing it, you know? I mean, it was my own money that that created it financially. Generally, most of it. Um, although I've had some some grants [00:12:30] for particular projects, but but generally the ongoing cost is, uh, my own, uh, the finances. And there's nothing stopping anyone from doing a similar thing. And I've always wondered why people, particularly in in places like Auckland, where there is so much happening, why there aren't more of these kind of websites because actually, the the stories are there, the people are there. The you know, the inspiration is there. Um, it's a lot easier now in terms of, [00:13:00] uh, the technology and how much it costs. And, you know, you can do your own editing at home. You know, you can just buy a a recorder for a couple of $100. Um, you can record on your phone. You know, it it it it actually I I I don't think necessarily the financial or the techno technology nowadays, uh, that those challenges are as great as what they were say back in the two thousands. Um, so yes. So basically it it's it's kind of me kind of like, um [00:13:30] kind of running it and and also, um, hand coding the the website, you know, learning how to make a database, learning how to, um, do tagging and all that kind of stuff. It's been really valuable for me in terms of my own career, because actually, in doing that, um, you know, you get a whole lot of other skills and again I, I kind of wonder why other people haven't kind of gone gone down down that that road. Um, having said that, it was me, me, me, um, it the [00:14:00] the the the Pride Z site would not exist without the input and the stories of the people that have been interviewed and the interviewers uh, that, you know, either commissioned or they've kind of volunteered their time. Um, while I may may have created that kind of that base infrastructure and kind of maintained it, Actually, it's the content, the content of the community. And if it hadn't been for the community, the site wouldn't exist. So it's been a real labour of love for you. Oh, yeah, [00:14:30] Yeah. And continues to be absolutely. And And I guess that's one of the reasons why I didn't want to go down. That kind of, uh, say incorporated society, uh, route because I would hate, you know, like, 20 years down the track to then have it have it kind of, um, you know, turned on you, which I've seen happen in a number of different organisations and and, you know, and then you're left thinking, Oh, I've just spent 20 years doing this and and it's been pulled out from underneath me, and I thought, No, I suppose one of the things [00:15:00] for the community archives is sustainability. And I suppose with you just being the sort of mainly the sole person and probably to fund it yourself, that sort of makes it a little um, you know, it can impact on the sustainability. Sort of like medium long term. What would you say? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I. I think, um, a lot of community organisations are often driven by one or two individuals, and, um, there's a real fragility. Uh uh [00:15:30] with a lot of organisations, you know, it just takes one or two key people to go sick or say I'm not doing this anymore, and it completely falls over. And I think you can see, um, time and time again. And in kind of rainbow communities, those those, um, those groups and organisations that they they come and they go, um and particularly I've seen it. And and even just in individuals, when they, uh, say, uh, organisers of pride, uh, events or, um, pride parades or or what have you? [00:16:00] Um, people only tend to last, you know, one or two times before they get burnt out, it's it's a there's a really high turnover, and and again, I wanted to make something that was sustainable. So I wanted to create a website that didn't need a lot of, um, maintenance. Um, that actually if I had time to go and do audio recordings and interviews. I would give that time if I didn't. It didn't matter. So So it kind of EMP and flowed. So, um, when you look at the amount [00:16:30] of audio produced in, say 2013 1st, 2016, there's a difference. Because actually, my life was different in 2016. So um yeah, II. I wanted to make it that actually it was sustainable that actually, if I didn't have the time to do anything for a month, um, it wouldn't be an issue, you know, the site would just be by itself. Um, So just going to thinking about the NZ website. What? What types of material have you got on there? Um what [00:17:00] do you actually put up there? What do you Yeah, well, the the the There's a whole range of things. So originally it started off with interviews with with people so so profile interviews and interviews about organisations. Um, because I was very aware that organisations come and go and change over time, Um, and then moved into kind of event recordings. And, uh so we're talking about, you know, pride events. We're talking about kind of aids. Uh, memorial events. Uh, we're talking about panel discussions, anything [00:17:30] where rainbow queer ideas were happening. And, um, I I found those kind of event recordings just so rich because, I mean, you get such a diverse range of of voices and opinions, uh, and you you can cover a lot of bases. So, I, I now would tend to, um, go for recording it, uh, say events, uh, like out in the city, uh, out in the park. Uh, because you, you know, you you are actually getting maybe [00:18:00] 20 or 30 interviews with a whole range of different people. Uh, which means that it's a lot easier to kind of, um to kind of manage. So there's the the the audio side of things. Um, alongside that there's some, um, not a huge amount, But there is some kind of photography from pride events as well. Um, there's a huge archive from gay nz dot com. Um, they were a news site. Uh, um, a daily news site that went from about 2000 to 2017. [00:18:30] 18,000 articles, just as they were ending. They said, um, you know the community can republish these articles, Um, and and as long as you attribute to where they're from, uh, NZ was, uh, an amazing or is an amazing resource. I mean, it was incredible that they were able to go for 18 years, uh, doing a daily news site and I, I think, certainly, um, you know, we are more the poorer for not having that kind of daily [00:19:00] queer lens on stuff. Um, there's also, um, just over time of, of, of developed and and kind of, um found, uh, lots of information relate on specific events. So we so making a timeline of kind of rainbow history in New Zealand, I think at the moment it's around about 2, 2. 5 1000 entries. I mean, you know, I would never you know, 20 years ago, I would never have known that there was this amazing queer heritage, and and and [00:19:30] now to have it online and even, um, you know, it will never be complete, because, I mean, there's always stuff that's happened that we may never know about. Um, but actually what a what a kind of, um, starting point for people to go and do their own research. Um, and what else we got? We've got a map, which is kind of like, um, geographic, you know, plotting, um, rainbow heritage on on a map of New Zealand, which is, um, really cool. A lot of this data, um, is then made [00:20:00] freely available. And, um, it was, you know, one of the things that really inspired me is actually, um, not only kind of having doing the recordings, but actually then making it accessible to as many people as possible and to making it freely available in a noncommercial way. And so, you know, um, things like N really inspired me to go. Well, actually, you know, 18,000 articles that have written and they're saying, you know, as long as you don't play plagiarise this, you know, credit where credit is due, [00:20:30] but actually use it in a non-commercial way. Um, So things like that and and and earlier, um, kind of media creators have done a similar thing. And so a lot of the data on Friday and is is is released under a creative Commons licence, um, so that people actually can, you know, use it and, um, do their own things with it, which is really kind of cool. It is. It is very cool. So does anybody else collect this material? Um, that, you know, of within the sort of, um, communities, or is is [00:21:00] pride pretty unique in this respect? I know that there are a number of, um, media, um, creators A around the country, like like particularly people like, um, Andrew Whiteside in Auckland. Um, who was, uh, responsible for, um, an amazing TV show in the 19 nineties. It was a weekly kind of queer queer, um, news report and magazine programme, Um, but has subsequently gone on to do kind of like, uh, you know, blog posts and [00:21:30] and interviews. So Andrew does that. I'm not aware of another website that is actively going out doing audio recordings and then putting them online, I think. More. There are more people doing research, interviews and oral history interviews that then go into, um, either a national library or or somewhere else. And that's quite different, I think from [00:22:00] Pride NZ. So one of the key things with pride NZ is that, um, the recordings are for immediate publication, So it's not if if somebody says, Oh, I don't want this known for 20 years. I will say, Don't tell me. I don't want to know. Um, because the the whole thing is actually, um, making things accessible now so that people can hear their own voices or voices that are similar to theirs and stories that are similar to their, whereas [00:22:30] in oral history, Um, it's a bit like, um I remember doing oral history training, and they were talking about, you know, it's like peeling an onion, isn't it? You know, you go over and over the same things and get more and more facts and get really, um, really into the specifics And I don't think, uh, pride NZ is kind of like that. Um I think both have their place. Uh, but I, I would rather see, um, the stuff that I'm doing kind of out there in the public and and being, you know, publicly heard, uh, but [00:23:00] I think there's a lot more kind of that kind of research research for books, research, publications, research for films. Um, and then that material is then being either deposited in somewhere like or, um, National Library. So just got a few questions from all of this. So, um, so thinking about sort of donations, Has anybody any other organisations or people donated things to to you, or do you just tend? Is it mainly just you going out to collect or whoever collecting interviews, mainly, It's about [00:23:30] collecting, um, or or, um uh, hiring someone to go and do a project. A particular project. Um, so, yeah, there have been a number of projects where we've got some, you know, wonderful grants from people like places like the Rule Foundation, um, et cetera, where they've given money for a specific project, which is really fantastic. Uh, I've really kind of shied away from, um, wanting donations because I think pride DN is very much a, um, kind [00:24:00] of a contemporary repository. I wouldn't go as far as saying it's a archive in the long term, because if it's just me with, you know, when I go, well, then it will stop. Um, and this is the the reason why it's important to get it into a permanent repository. So like, um, the the National Library. And so So I've really, um kind of really tried to not ask for donations. That becomes problematic. as well. Um, [00:24:30] in terms of in terms of, um, holding donated material is because then, uh, you've got permissions. You've got privacy. You know, uh, you've got reuse. You know, when somebody gives something to you, you know, how can you reuse it? How do I stay in contact with you in terms of if somebody else wants to reuse it, It just gets very, um, murky very quickly. And, um, that that I'm not set up for that. So if somebody says to me, Oh, I've got stuff I need to donate. I'll say, Go [00:25:00] like ans go to Papa, go National library, Whatever, Um and and and give them, um, some options because actually informing them, Saying Well, actually, you know, if you're looking at something like, say, textiles, um, probably better to go with Papa because actually, they've got amazing textile conservators. They've got the the the the, um, infrastructure to look after that material. Um, so it's not going Oh, you should go to this particular archive [00:25:30] or that particular archive. It's kind of just going well, what kind of what kind of material do you have And have a think about this thinking about because, um So how do you find things on your website? So if you wanted to find a particular audio interview, how would you go about that? What's your system? So the system, um, has kind of grown organically? Uh um, Originally, it was just the audio, and it was a title and very hard to find stuff. And then [00:26:00] I started keyword keyword tagging. So I've just started going listening to the audio and just putting tags in there to kind of, um, connect audio together, but also so that Google or a search engine actually can find material. So I'm tagging from the perspective of a user. So, um, or a listener. So it's not necessarily how the interviewee or person speaking would identify themselves, but it's It's kind of like going Oh, actually, um, [00:26:30] this this audio relates to transgender issues or gay issues or whatever, Um, and and then that will help the listener. And then, uh, about a year or two ago, I started getting auto transcriptions, so there's a, um, a website that does a I transcriptions, and it doesn't particularly like the New Zealand accent. Um, but it is getting better, but what it does do It gives you a general sense of what's in the in the in the recordings. [00:27:00] That has been amazing for, um, getting people through Google because, uh, you've now got a text based version of, uh, the audio not completely. Not perfect. But, um, it will give a lot more entry points to people finding that information. So, um, that's, uh, that's kind of the transcriptions. And then the third step along from that is I basically took my dictionary of tags and I took the A I transcriptions [00:27:30] and said, uh, do any of these tags come in the A. I transcription? And if yes, they become the auto generated tags, Um so So now there's a kind of, um, you know, kind of a three step process to actually identifying information. Has anybody objected to any of the terminology on the tax at all or OK, I haven't had anyone object to the terminology, and I mean, that's such a moving feast, isn't it? In terms of, you know, like I mean, [00:28:00] you know, over 10 years, um and I'm not sure if it's just because people you know, I haven't really taken an active interest. I mean, I, I certainly I would take something down, or I would untasted to To the person speaking. Um, So my big thing is actually the person that has the right to say whether they want to be up online, how they're identified, how they're described is the person speaking, Um, secondarily, you know, if there are, [00:28:30] um, people around, you know, if that person is no longer here, I would listen to, you know, the people around them, But I'm very aware of, um, just in in, you know, my kind of professional life in terms of, um, working in kind of cultural institutions of, um, families are actually actively wanting to cleanse the slate of of, uh, of of rainbow heritage for a particular person, you know, whether they're getting rid of diaries with, um, controlling access requirements. [00:29:00] So, uh, yeah, but I haven't actually had anyone come to me and say, please take out that tag. I have had people come and say, please remove my name from the podcast. Um, in terms of the text, Uh, because that comes up in Google. And, um, I've had a number of people say, you know, I I'm going for a job. The first hit on Google is this Pride NZ thing from 12 years ago. Um, I don't want that. I don't mind the audio being there, but I don't [00:29:30] want to be the first hit in Google. OK, and, um, just thinking about sort of people, you know, you the you interview. How do How do you find people to interview and how do you decide which projects you're going to do? Uh, look at it. It change. It's changed over time. Um, so in some way, sometimes it's quite useful to go Well, actually to, um, you know, we want to do a project looking at organisations. What are the organisations out there in Wellington at the moment? And, um what are they doing? You know what? What kind of things [00:30:00] are they doing for the rainbow communities? Other times that say, looking at youth very much into, um, peer interviewing. So a 50 year old interviewing an 18 year old is not going to work so well, I don't think so. Actually, getting a youth interviewer to interview a youth, um participant is is a really good way. Um, because just the the the questions people ask is are different. You know, it's like, actually, um, sometimes, yeah, you You don't even know what questions to ask. [00:30:30] And and so I think a lot of it is about getting the right interviewer in the right situations. Likewise with, um, particular communities. So, like, I would, um, you know, there are There are spaces where actually a white CIS male is not particularly welcome. Fine. I mean, I'm I have no problem with that at all. And And I think, actually, um what a privilege to be able to have a recording of that space or people in that space that I can learn from, You know, [00:31:00] um so, uh, yeah, it's it's it's about, um, kind of going, well, what's on offer at the moment. In terms of like, who's available? Um, really important to get older people, uh, before they pass and before their memories start going, um, and really important to get younger people so that you can see the progression. So, like, um, there's a It's actually not on pride. N. But there was a, um, an interview done with, um all as as a teenager, [00:31:30] Um, that I've heard And isn't it amazing that now? Now, um, she's an MP. Um, And to hear her back, uh, as a teenager, um, is is is really quite something. So I think it it just depends on what's out there and just being open to the possibilities, I guess. Yeah, Yeah. Are there any sort of, um, areas like? And if you found any gaps in your collection you'd like to address or are you sort of happy with the representation that's on your website or Yeah, it uh, yeah. So, um, that probably goes [00:32:00] back to that whole thing of not being a, um, incorporated society or a trust. Uh, so, uh, I, I don't know if it represents I. I don't think you can ever represent all of rainbow culture because, I mean, we're so diverse, so diverse. I mean, I try and get as much representation as possible, and, uh, but I'm sure somebody in 20 years time will go. Ah, completely missed that. And yeah, so [00:32:30] So it kind of depends on one. Whether I've got the time, Whether I can find somebody else to go and do the recording. Whether the participants want to be recorded I mean, I've had, you know, the the There are numerous people that don't want to be recorded. Don't don't want to share. That's fine. You know that? That, um it doesn't mean we haven't tried, so it's kind of like actually the, uh what you see on the website is not all of the, uh it it it doesn't recognise some of the things that haven't happened. [00:33:00] And so we we will We will never know, will we? I mean, we we we won't know what those interviews we tried to get, but we couldn't get We're gonna be like So what's, um what are your plans for private and Z now, going forward. I think we're in such an exciting time in terms of connecting different websites together through and different collections together And what that will tell us. And, um II, I I'm [00:33:30] really wanting to do like, more recordings. Uh, not just keep recording for recordings sake, but then looking at how do these recordings on Pride NZ, um, interact with other collections? I'm really looking forward to when, um, places, like say, uh, develop their online presence so that we can start combining the different collections and going well, actually, we you know, we've got stuff talking about gay live in the seventies. I've got posters. Wouldn't be amazing if we can [00:34:00] bring those two together. Um, you know, you think of all the different kind of possibilities in terms of, uh, educational use, because we've got the new curriculum history curriculum in schools. Um, wouldn't it be amazing to be able to start using this material and, um, yeah, in, in making kind of history come alive? So do you still see a place for, um, like, sort of rainbow archives in New Zealand in the future? Yes. Absolutely. Yeah, because, um, I one [00:34:30] of the other key things with pride and material is I have pushed it into at least three or four different archives because I don't want one single archive being the arbiter of who can access it and whether it survives. So things like going into the national Library going into, um, the web archive going into the library of Congress, Um, and whether people can actually just download, um, the MP threes themselves as high quality MP threes. Um, that means that this [00:35:00] material is going to survive in some kind of form. Who knows how it's going to survive? I mean, I'm I'm I'm I'm going for the best possible options that are available at the time. Um, but it will survive in in in some form. Um, there is one thing I would I would love to read as a as an ending because I think it kind of ties us all together in that, um so going back to the nineties when I was sending out C DS, uh, to to people, um, and [00:35:30] to organisations. And in 2020 I got an email back from somebody that received those C DS in 1997. And this person was from Arkansas and they wrote to me saying I received the C DS from you during a very trying time in my life, I was wrestling to fit into the life of a gay man in the American South. Life had been a roller coaster for me for years, from bullying in high school to death threats to being thrown out of my home by my family and a loss of almost all of my friends to an [00:36:00] attempt at suicide. My life was just starting to get on track. When I received the C DS from you, I would listen to them on Repeat, during my daily commute, the voices calmed me and made me feel like part of a larger community, albeit a community I didn't have access to in Arkansas. I laughed with them and I cried with them. They allowed me to stay in touch with the core part of me that I didn't want to deny anymore. So I guess what I'm saying is, thank you. And I know these audio files were probably just a small part in your life, but for me, [00:36:30] they were a beacon of hope. And I think, uh, receiving that, um, feedback in 2020 was just the most amazing thing because, actually, I think that was the whole essence of, you know, the stuff I was doing in the nineties. The stuff on Pride NZ is we don't know what effect this is having on the people listening now and in the future. And and maybe in 2050 years time, um, somebody will go. Oh, I remember hearing that conversation or that panel discussion.

IRN: 3572
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/paul_diamond_on_downfall_the_destruction_of_charles_mackay.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004701
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093091
TITLE: Paul Diamond on Downfall: The Destruction of Charles Mackay
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Des Bovey; Neill Atkinson; Paul Diamond
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: Aotearoa New Zealand; Berlin; Charles Mackay; Des Bovey; Downfall: The Destruction of Charles Mackay (book); Germany; Goethe-Institut; Ministry for Culture and Heritage; National Library of New Zealand; Neill Atkinson; Paul Diamond; Roger Smith; Stout Research Centre for New Zealand Studies; Walter D'Arcy Cresswell; Wellington; Whanganui; tram
DATE: 7 December 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: Taiwhanga Kauhau (National Library), 70 Molesworth Street, Thorndon, Wellington
CONTEXT: Author Paul Diamond talks about his new book Downfall: The Destruction of Charles Mackay. The event took place at the National Library of New Zealand in Wellington, on 7 December 2022.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Kia ora koutou, ko Neil Atkinson tōku mahi ana, no mai haere mai. It's great to see so many people here today. This is the last of our seminars in this lunchtime monthly series. And as this is a partnership between.. Manitou Taonga, Ministry of Culture and Heritage and National Library. It's great that we have, um, we have Paul, Paul Diamond speaking to us today. Um, so Paul, um, of Ngati Haua, Te Rarawa, Ngapuhi, um, has been Curator Māori at the Alexander Turnbull [00:00:30] Library since 2011. Um, he's been a journalist and broadcaster and, uh, is the author of Uh, A Fire in Your Belly, Makariti, and Savage to Suit, and of course, his latest book, Downfall, uh, The Destruction of Charles Mackie, which you see here, with this wonderful cover, published by Massey University Press last month, and launched, um, here in Wellington and also in Whanganui. Um, so this is a, you know, I think as Paul will tell us, I think this has been a long project, um, it's a really remarkable story, many people will know something about [00:01:00] it now, certainly now, you may have already read the book. Um, and, Know, it's a, it's a story that has a much greater resonance just than, than, than, than a story of the, the, the fate of the, the individuals in involved. So it's, um, really looking forward to hearing Paul, uh, talk about downfall. So please, please join me in welcoming him. Um, , uh,[00:01:30] Tū e kuku, tū e te kōrero, tau te māramatanga, tīhei mauri ora. Um, just to start with, it's really important to thank those who've made this event today possible. So thank you, the Ministry and the Library, Neil, Kate, Joan, Mark and others. And I want to acknowledge the supporters who've actually made possible some of the things I'm going to be showing [00:02:00] you, the research here and overseas. So Mana Te Taonga again for the history award that I was lucky enough to receive. Creative New Zealand, I had their Berlin Writers Residency. Um, the library here for giving me spells of time away to do this research. Um, the Goethe Institut, who, um, um, I'm still learning German, but anyway, I've got more than I had when I.. And I walked into the door of that place. They gave me two language scholarships and the Stout Research Centre. I had a little spell researching up the hill [00:02:30] at that wonderful place as well and joined that community of researchers. And there's lots of other supporters here in the room, actually, people who've been involved and supported, even if that meant indulging me while I banged on about Berlin and Whanganui over the last 18 years. And I need to let you know that the books are for sale in the National Library store on the floor above and I'll be up there with them afterwards. So today what I thought I'd do is just give you a bit of an overview of Downfall. You are a slightly [00:03:00] self selected sample of people with predisposed to have an interest and to know who Charles Mackey was. Walter Darcy Crespo, but I thought it would be good to just whiz through the bare bones of the story. Um, I'll show you some images of the research journey, which is something that was going to be more in the book than it is, but um, I've been using it for other things like these talks and things. And I'm going to present you with some of the mysteries and unanswered questions, which I think is part of the reason this story has intrigued people, but also Um, confounded people a [00:03:30] little bit as well. So, here's a photo of Maki. That's the photo I think that Gavin Hurley used as a basis for, um, the cover. So, in his political life, he, he had been on this thing called the Mata'onga'onga Road Board. Um, which was significant because it was where his in laws family owned land. And they had a big interest in bridges and roads and things built, being built in the area where they.. owned land. But he, uh, Maki became a councillor on the [00:04:00] Whanganui Borough Council in 1905, and the mayor in 1906, in his early 30s. He caused a bit of an upset, you know, the men, and they were all men, who ran Whanganui, tended to be a lot older. Um, this photo was used again in this montage, Whanganui, the future river city of the Dominion, that's from 1909. Um, Mackie was really known for leading the introduction of electric trams to Whanganui. Um, so if you look in each of those pictures, you can actually see a tram somewhere in the photo. Um, so that was the first place [00:04:30] outside the four main centres in New Zealand to have electric trams. And in the book, I talk about how there was a bit of a row about steam trains versus electric trams. I mean, I don't know how he knew, but, but the future was electric, not steam, even though people had been to London and Paris, and where they had steam trains at that stage, and said well, if it's good enough for London and Paris, it's good enough for Whanganui, but Mackie went out on a limb and pushed. He was the only one who pushed for the electric trams, which was a real achievement. Um, but going back in [00:05:00] time, the Wellington College Archives actually, just before the book was finished, sent me this photo. So, Mackey was born in 1875 in Nelson, where his father, Joseph Mackey, was a master at Nelson College. The family moved to Wellington when Joseph Mackey got a job as principal at Wellington College, where Charles was dux in 1891. So that's the same year this photo of the first 15 was taken. The archive has a second copy of the photo, um, which is slightly clearer. [00:05:30] And if you haven't worked out who it is yet, that's Mackie, age 16. That year, his father resigned as principal and the family moved to Taranaki. Charles won a junior scholarship and went to Canterbury College in Christchurch. And after Mackey was shot in Berlin in 1929, a columnist in the Daily Telegraph in Sydney shared a memory of what Mackey was like as a student. A tallish young fellow noted for his walking stick, his smile, and his way of carrying his head on one side. He graduated with honours in mathematics. [00:06:00] But his temperament was always the rover's. Mackey's shifted his digs again, was a remark you heard in the college quadrangle every few weeks. Um, So that's interesting, and I only found that a few weeks ago. There's, there's more and more material emerging thanks to Papers Past and Trove and these other digitized databases. Um, I love this photo because Mackie was sort of praised for, you know, looking the man aboard and, you know, it is quite grand for the mayor of Whanganui to be wearing a top hat, um, at the opening [00:06:30] of Something Catholic, I guess, in, um, in Whanganui, and I just think Mrs. Mackie looks really bored under that giant hat. Um, so after a brief stint teaching Auckland, Mackie trained as a lawyer. And, um, Stratford with Malone, actually, later to become famous at Chanuk Bia, and Maki moved to Whanganui in 1901. 1904 he married Isabel Duncan from one of the early Whanganui Pākehā settler families. The Duncan family named a street in their subdivided [00:07:00] land in what became known as Whanganui East, after Maki. And.. This image just popped up a few weeks ago. Um, Mackie is Commodore of the Whanganui Sailing Club, which had just been formed then in 1904. He did seem to have a habit of running things that he got. But to jump ahead, um, to 1919 1920, I think the situation was quite different. Mackey was under a lot of pressure. He'd had an accident in 1919, late in that year. [00:07:30] He was walking from his wife's house in Maunganui East to a council meeting along the riverfront in Maunganui, you know, to go into town, and he was run over by a milk cart, and so his legs were damaged. And there was a controversy because he sued the milk cart owner, and it was the milk cart owner who was going to have to.. Sell his milk cart to, and his whole livelihood, to pay the fine. Mackey was involved with the building of the Sargent Art Gallery, which opened in 1919, but he was criticized for enlisting a few [00:08:00] years earlier, but not serving in the Great War. And there was a big row with the RSA and other people in Monganui over the visit of the Prince of Wales, who was actually in New Zealand still when the shooting happened in Monganui. And the town infrastructure was struggling to cope with the rapid growth. So that tram network relied on an electric plant that was gas fired and it was designed for the tram network, which expanded. But I have read in the histories of the trams in [00:08:30] Monganui that You know, hairdresser in Whanganui and Victoria Avenue wanted to be connected to it all, you know, because people wanted electricity rather than gas and the network just couldn't cope. And in fact, after Mackie went to prison, the whole network collapsed and Whanganui didn't have any power for months while the part was being sent out from London, from England. So, and then, and amongst this, Mackie, I think, had strong supporters, but he also had some quite powerful enemies among the soldiers, the returned servicemen, and some of the [00:09:00] others in the town. So, I just wanted to show you this, that when they decided to, um, because Mackie's portrait after his, after he went to prison disappeared, and they tried to find another portrait, so they used, um, They used this one. They, they found a version of this behind a wall in the Whanganui Museum and they used that. So there's actually two versions. The version on the left is the one that um, is in the council chamber in Whanganui. So, of course, this, oh, and he was, just [00:09:30] to give you an idea of how old he was, he was 44 in 1920. And here's his nemesis, Walter Darcy Cresswell. Um, and that's actually one of the photos taken when he, Cresswell, left New Zealand the year after the shooting. So he was 24 in 1920. Um, I don't know what I think. No, I do know what I think about colorization of archival photos, but I just thought I'd show you that. I spotted that on Twitter the other day. It's kind of interesting, not quite [00:10:00] necessarily accurate, but it's interesting. Um, so May 1920, Walter Darcy Cresswell arrived in Whanganui. Um, he'd been training as an architect in London when the Great War broke out. He served with British and New Zealand armies and was wounded from things like shell shock and having had a nervous breakdown and was still apparently on the sick list. And he was visiting Whanganui as part of his recuperation because he had an uncle and an aunt and cousins who lived in Whanganui. And these relations had lost a son at Passchendaele and another [00:10:30] Cresswell cousin that actually died at Passchendaele as well. Um, Cresswell had aspirations to be a poet, uh, but later would become quite well known for his homosexuality. So Darcy Cresswell arrived in Whanganui on the Monday of the week of the 10th of May. He had dinner with Mackie and his, Mackie's, uh, the Cresswell cousin that night. They had dinner again on Thursday when Mackie invited Cresswell to visit the Sergeant Gallery because Mackie had his own key. And then on Friday about four o'clock [00:11:00] Cresswell met Mackie at his office in this Ridgeway Street building. So above the words limited in that photo is where apparently the office was. But I didn't really realize until I.. Walked out the, you know, what actually happened on those very days during that week, was that they actually met in that office four times. So they met there on the Friday, they went to the um, They went to the Whanganui Club in St. Hill Street for a cup of tea, then they went to the art gallery, then they went back to the office, [00:11:30] and that's where Chris Will discovered a certain disgusting feature in Mr. Mackey's character, according to his statement, and that's where there was this sort of ultimatum, You resign or I'll, I'll tell everyone about you and this. Disgusting feature in your character. Um, and then the next day, about 9. 30, Cresswell called on Matthew at that office, they went to the Whanganui Club for another cup of tea, and um, and then back to the office, and that's where there was this incident. Um, which according to Cresswell involved, Um, Mackey shooting [00:12:00] Cresswell, but then not realising, well obviously not being very good at using a gun because Cresswell didn't die and Mackey panicked and either closed or shut the door in the adjoining room and that's when Dusty Cresswell threw the chair out of that window and, um, fired shots and stood at the window and told everyone he'd discovered a scandal. Um, And if you saw the project on TV3 the other night, it was quite a hard case that when they were interviewing people about that office and how they might be putting it on the rainbow list for Historic Places, the [00:12:30] window shattered into a thousand pieces. Um, it's on the NACI website if you want to have a look at it. Um, so Mackey was sentenced to 15 years hard labor and found guilty of attempted murder. He was released after six years controversially on condition he left New Zealand. And.. This is a photo that's not in the book. This is actually his sister. Margaret Jean Mackey, who, she's in the center of that photo, she worked at the Taranaki Herald in New Plymouth. Um, she sponsored him and took him [00:13:00] to London and set him up in a new business. So, most of his siblings sort of, um, stood by him and supported him. And we now know that that new business was advertising. Um, Mackey moved to Berlin in late 1928. He was working as a journalist and teaching English there. He was covering street fighting between the police and communist protesters when he was shot in May 1929. So, Hershevitz, if you can make that word out on the picture on the left, that's a still from a [00:13:30] collection of film footage of those, the fighting. Um, and the barricades are in the front of that photo. So, Maki kind of drove down that street and stopped outside that store. So now that store, which was a Jewish clothes shop, is now a chemist. But we realize that it's actually largely intact, which apparently happened a lot in the buildings that survived the Second World War bombing. Um, for economic reasons, we're often just.. just left or, you know, and so they are actually the same buildings on that side of the street. So Mackie was standing quite [00:14:00] close to where I'm standing when he was shot. So here I am in Whanganui looking for bullet holes, um, in the office. So that's what the office in the Meteor building looks like. It was used as the smoker room for the printing company. Um, up until the company left that building when I was in Berlin, a, um, woman that I met said to me, there's this word called schpurensuche and it's a search for traces. And it's a word from police forensic [00:14:30] inquiries. You know, when there's a crime in the crime scene and they're looking for traces of what happened, they schpurensuche. But this woman said, it's also got a metaphorical meaning. It's actually about historical searches for traces. And I love that idea. And so really that's, Where I've got to with the story, it's about trying to get beyond or underneath the story of the shootings. Because the shootings grab your attention. My goodness, a mayor shooting someone. Oh, he was, you know, he was gay. He was being blackmailed. But, you know, beyond that, what was actually going on? And I was really delighted. [00:15:00] This is my partner, Richard King, up at the Sargent. Um, And there was a show, uh, for Pride Week last year. Um, it was Simplegma. I think I'm saying that right. It was a collaborative project between the Auckland based artist Shannon Novak and a curator, Millie Michelanian. And it was about searching for queerness in collections despite historical erasure and exclusion, they said. It's like sifting through coded traces. And I love that, um, these young artists and curators have picked up that idea. [00:15:30] And used it to put together that collection of things from the Sargent's collection as well as work from Shannon Novak on the right. So, taken together, what I'm arguing is the traces that I've found as part of this project are evidence of homosexuality as these two men understood at their own time. The British historian Justin Bengry has argued that terms such as lesbian and gay cannot sustain the task of describing experiences in the past that may differ radically from our own lives today and in the recent past. They [00:16:00] start from an assumption of similarity or even sameness, which serves to reconstitute the past in our own image. Can these terms ever accommodate people in the past who understood their desires and sexualities differently from us, if they even understood themselves to have sexualities? So instead of applying these terms, like gay and lesbian, um, to people in the past, Bengree says we can queer the past. To queer the past, he says, is to let people in history define themselves in often complex and unfamiliar ways, or to accept that even if they did [00:16:30] define themselves, we may never know how. It is a conversation between us and them, these people in history, about the resonances we may feel with their lives without demanding from them a direct line of kinship and exclusive ownership. Queering the past. It's an act that happens in the present. So even if it is uncertain what homosexuality meant to Mackie and Cresswell, I think we can be reasonably confident that that part of their lives impacted on how others treated them. So I [00:17:00] always acknowledge this person, Prue Langbine. So this all began in 2004 when we were working together at Radio New Zealand and Prue said, why don't we do a radio documentary about this story, which she'd found in Michael King's History of New Zealand. I'd found it in Peter Wells essay in The Best Mates Anthology. And so we tro it off to Nui in 2004, and that's Peru and I at the launch a week was a couple of weeks ago. Um, the program didn't get made, but I had the good luck to work with Raman Daley at, um, the Ministry for Culture and Heritage, [00:17:30] who said, why don't you, oh, don't try and solve this, but why don't you, um, why don't you work on a new spare time and see where it leads and look at the effect it had on other gay men, which was a great, great tip. So, Looking a bit at some of these mysteries, residual mysteries, to do with the blackmail and the shooting, these are the two statements that weren't made public at the time of the shooting, but these are the statements from the doctor and the specialist, and these speak to this question of how did Cresswell know that Mackie [00:18:00] was homosexual? So that first statement on the left is from Mackey's GP, Dr. Earl, um, written the same day that Mackey was tried and remanded for his sentence. And it says, This is to certify that some six years ago, Charles Evan Mackey, a Whanganui solicitor, consulted me with reference to homosexual monomania. I advised him to attain suggested treatment, and I believe that he acted on my advice. And the one on the right, is by the specialist. This is to certify that Mr. C. E. Mackey in August [00:18:30] 1914, acting on the advice of his medical advisor, came to see me about treating him. He was in a very worried and depressed frame of mind and said if I could not help him, life would be impossible. He had treatment intermittently until the end of November 1914. He then stopped the treatments because he said the homosexual ideas were gone and he felt quite all right again. In my opinion, intermittent treatments should have been kept up for 12 to 18 months, then the cure would have been permanent. I have treated other cases of homosexual desire with success. The two [00:19:00] chief causes of relapse are alcoholism and neurasthenia. For the part last two months, we know Mr. C. E. Mackey has had great mental strain and worry, and I'm sure that if this had not been so, this trouble would have never come to pass. Albert Mackey. And that's Albert Mackey there, um, on second from the right. It is, um, plus fours or something, sixes or something, on the golf course in Whanganui. And that's a newspaper advertisement from the time when he treated Mackey. So there were two years that [00:19:30] Mackey wasn't Mayor, between 1913 and 1915. And I find it interesting that this treatment with Albert Mackey, who apparently wasn't a relation, um, happened. We know now that that was probably this thing, autosuggestion, which, um, Mackey used a lot in his advertising, possibly, um, hypnosis as well. Um, but before 1920, so those six years, who else knew about that treatment? Um, Dr. Earl, Albert Mackey, the metaphysician, but who [00:20:00] else? I mean, I know, you know, patient, um, confidentiality and things, but still, Mackey would have been Living with the knowledge that there could be a risk that someone would let that knowledge out and, you know, six years was quite a long time to live with that. Why did Cresswell decide to blackmail Mackie? Um, and who was Cresswell's cousin and what did he have to do with the blackmail? I think the cousin was this man, Roland Marshall Cresswell, so the eldest son of the aunt and uncle, Charles and [00:20:30] Eleanor, who Darcy Cresswell was visiting. And this is from a family, um, reprinting of a scrapbook kept by Eleanor Cresswell that was done by one of the, um, grandsons who was based in Australia. And, As you can see there, Ronald, uh, Roland Cresswell served in the Great War and ended up running the farm that was intended to be run by his brother, Jack Tennyson Cresswell, who was the one that was killed at Passchendaele. And the father, [00:21:00] uh, Charles Cresswell, was actually appealing to the Military Service Board for his son to be excused from military service, but the war ended, um, before the appeal was, was, was heard. Um, and also people have speculated that there was something.. Some sort of incident, you know, sexual encounter happened between Mackie and Chris, well, you know, that line, I discovered a certain disgusting feature in his character. Well, how and what happened? And it's interesting [00:21:30] that, um, some things have resulted from the publication of this book, um, Chris Brickle, who's been a very important person in the realization of Downfall. So people will know about this book, um, Mates and Lovers, A History of Gay New Zealand. Published in 2008. And the cover uses an image from the Turnbull Library here taken in Wanganui in 1888. And the catalogue says it's a full length seated portrait of two men, Mr Colley and Mr Green, or Green, with a golden Labrador dog between them.[00:22:00] That could be Mr. Colley in the middle. And there have been some stage plays, um, retelling uh, stories from that book. Um, they happened in two different years, in Auckland, Wellington and Dunedin. And they suggested that Darcy Creswell and Charles Mackey had actually had sex. And I think in one of them, that I saw at BADS, I think they had sex and then Mackie gave Criswell the [00:22:30] money for the, I think he came back as a ghost because he died in Berlin and he came back, they had sex and then Mackie gave Criswell the money for the gas meter to gas himself. So quite a lot of dramatic, dramatic license. Um, but I find it interesting that, you know, gay creatives have kind of thought, well, they must've had sex. They must have had some sort of encounter and like that. But evidence found as part of my research suggests that this may not have been what happened. And this is an article [00:23:00] that I didn't find till just before the book was finished. This is from Pātea. So Pātea is the town just above Whanganui. And the little editorial is talking about these two cases that had happened that week. The case with Charles Mackey and also one Dennis Gunn. It was a murder in Ponsonby. Um, there is one aspect of the Whanganui sensation that the public should not overlook, and that is the service rendered by the community, uh, to the community, by [00:23:30] the young man Cresswell, who courageously took it upon himself to remove a deadly cancerous growth that had unhappily taken root in the neighbouring town, Whanganui. There were probably others that knew of the existence of the evil in their midst, in the part played by the chief actor who is now paying the penalty, but not having the proofs that young Cresswell apparently had. Had to be content with a vigorous and unrelenting campaign of hostility towards the culprit and the hope that he'd take a hint and retire from public life. Instead of doing so, he brazen things out until [00:24:00] the crash came and the campaign of righteous hostility was for a long time regarded by many as persecution. They are wiser now. Everything somehow comes to those who wait, and those who fight in a good cause. One word before the curtain is wrung down forever, let us hope on an unpleasing episode, that if there are any further signs of the cancerous growth in Whanganui, it is to be hoped the police will get to work and root it out completely. So that's June and then the next month this article [00:24:30] appears in the New Zealand Times and is syndicated all over New Zealand and various other papers. So it reports as you'll see that Cresswell has recovered was from his um, the bullet that was near his lung and he was about to leave Whanganui. And this article said that additional information was secured by Cresswell consequent on his discoveries in connection with the first case, and though no information under this detail has been published, it is understood that certain people have shaken the dust of Whanganui off their feet. [00:25:00] And there was an inquiry when Mackie and two other middle class prisoners were released in 1926. It's a bit of a complicated story, which I've tried to summarize in the book, but there was a report Delivered in good bureaucratic fashion just a couple of days before Christmas in 1926, and it went through the facts of the three cases. And when it recounted what happened in Whanganui, it said, it appeared at the hearing in May 1920 that Cresswell had discovered that Maki had been guilty of indecent [00:25:30] practices with young men. That he had interviewed Mackey on the subject on several occasions, and that he insisted on Mackey resigning from his position as mayor, or otherwise he would expose him. See, now that's not the same as what I think those playwrights were assuming, that there was some sort of incident, and that was the issue, and that's why the blackmail. This sort of suggests that there was something else going on, that perhaps didn't just involve Mackey, and could. help, I think, explain why the town just wanted to put a lid on this as fast as possible. Because there are things about the way the trial [00:26:00] happened, like not interviewing the cousin, not identifying the cousin, not locating two statements that were mentioned, um, where Mackie had said he'd resigned the mayoralty, they went completely missing, um, that I think show that they were trying to get this dealt with as fast as possible. There was a reference to the court case was going to be going to the hospital and hearing evidence from Criswell in this hospital But, um, I think the statement, which Chris will never sign, but Mackie did, and it says on it, in as much as this relates to my [00:26:30] own acts and deeds, it's substantially true. So what does that mean about the other person's acts and deeds? And I think perhaps there was something, there is a reference in a, um, oral history, you know, it's very hearsay, it's a lawyer who practiced with a lawyer who practiced with Mackie, you know, um, where there'd been a group of men involved in some sort of.. scandal in the town with younger men and Mackie took the rap for him. But so [00:27:00] that's what that's the evidence really for why I don't really think it was as straightforward as some sort of sexual encounter in Mackie's office, but were the men who may have been involved in places other than Whanganui, you know, and why was this woman Helen Shaw Interested in a man called Ronald Cuthbert. So, Helen Shaw As I've written in the book, was someone entrusted by Ormond Wilson with, um, writing the biography and editing letters from Darcy Crestwell, who she had a [00:27:30] lot of, um, respect for. And Ormond Wilson said, well, if you're going into this detail, you're going to have to look at this Whanganui affair. And so, Helen Shaw really is one of the first people who sort of did, you know, trod the same path that I have. And I've benefited from looking at her papers, which are here at the Turnbull. But she had all this material relating to a man called Ronald Cuthbert, who was a close friend of Criswell's, um, at Christ's College. He trained as a lawyer, and he was based in Christchurch. Um, and I did find a letter from Helen [00:28:00] Shaw to Bill Mitchell, who's someone else, who tried to write about the story in 1982. And Bill was trying to ask her about, well, what, what happened between these two men? What do you think? And she wrote, any additional information I might offer could be mere speculation or at best unproven. I think one has to concentrate on what one knows beyond shadow of doubt. And I thought that was really interesting that she was being so sort of cagey. In the reading room upstairs I found this letter, there's a couple of letters from Ronald Cuthbert who was quite unwell [00:28:30] in the 1960s and he was actually at Hamner and he was recovering from an operation and quite strange handwriting but in that What I was able to decipher was, so this is Helen Shaw had written to Ronald saying, what do you know about Whanganui? And he's writing back saying, could you send me a copy of the newspaper account, best of all a newspaper cutting, telling about the Whanganui murder as narrated before I think Robert Stout. Darcy on one occasion did [00:29:00] tell me at some length of that incident, but before writing about what Darcy told me, I would like to read at least the Press Association account of what happened. Failing that, perhaps you can mention what you yourself have already learned in its source and give me particulars of the press accounts of the trial. And that's the last piece of correspondence, because he died on the 5th of May, 1967, so, um, the year after that letter was written. When I thought about what he'd written, I thought, well, it's not implausible that He, you know, could have been [00:29:30] involved in it somehow. And of course he was trying to see what she knew. And remember, you know, 1967 is a long time before papers passed. Helen Shaw in the 1960s didn't even know what year the shooting had happened. She had to write to the town Clerk of Monu who said, yes, it was 1920 'cause he remembered it as a boy. But Mackey did actually spend time in Christchurch. Um, Cranley Barton wrote about, you know, meeting him there and going prowling on the new Brighton Dunes and, and. Maki actually got criticized quite a lot for [00:30:00] being out of Whanganui and not spending enough time, you know, attending to the town's business. He was very connected to You know, local government networks around the country. So it's not implausible that there was some sort of relationship between Mackie and this young man. Who's mentioned a lot in Crestwell's writing as, you know, one of my dearest friends. So that's another little, um, mystery that's left hanging. But now, just to talk about this thing about, you know, was it a conspiracy, or was it, as a previous partner of mine said, often [00:30:30] it's a cock up, um, this is a photo of, um, the day that the Sergeant Gallery was opened, and that's William Ferguson Massey sitting in the centre, and this is at the Cosmopolitan Club, where they'd just had an unveiling of the honours of, um, people, club members who'd served in the Great War. So Mackey's to the right of, Massey and the mayor beaches on the left, but the person to the right is, um, Thomas Boswell Williams and Any [00:31:00] students of body language it was sort of you know I've looked at this is a terrible photo and I've looked at it a lot of course But it was you know only recently that I sort of looked at it and looked at The Thomas Boswell Williams doesn't really by his body language look as if he's that comfortable sitting next to the mayor and I just mentioned this because Williams was the person who took over as mayor for the two years that Mackey wasn't mayor in 1913 15. Williams led the campaigns for the people who tried to challenge Mackey. Um, [00:31:30] each time they tried to unseat him, Williams was the chair. And it was Williams who wrote to the editor of the papers and said that when Mackey Enlisted and then didn't serve because he said he couldn't replace anyone and get a replacement in his business But it was a sham and then Mackey couldn't help himself and criticized Williams as mayor, but I can't help. I'm not saying it's a smoking gun or anything But I just can't help thinking that you know Williams who took over In 1920 after Mackey went to prison [00:32:00] and was very much seen as the older Safe pair of hands and, and, you know, back to that normal mode of older men running, running things in Whanganui, not this sort of, um, new arrival upstart. Anyway. And I know that some of his descendants live in Fielding, uh, you know, that's the thing, not everybody connected with the story still lives in Maunganui. Um, when they had the unveiling, uh, the commemoration of a hundred years of the Dublin Street Bridge, um, some of the descendants of Tom Boswell Williams came over from Fielding.[00:32:30] And I, it would be interesting to know if there is anything in their family about these stories. Why did Mackie have two offices? So, his office in the street directories was in this building, which was a billiard hall. So if you know Maunganui, this is Ridgeway Street, and that's the avenue there. The, um, the old post office, the Rutland Hotel. But the actual meteor building is back where you would have been standing, um, from where this photograph was taken. It's not clear why. [00:33:00] He had two offices. Um, he, a man called Diagon, who built, who owned the Meteor building, was very closely involved with the sergeant, so perhaps he let Mackey use, use that office, but that's another sort of mystery, but the reason we're pretty certain it was the Meteor building is this is the diagram that Darcy Cresswell did, which Corresponds pretty closely with the layout of the office. All that's missing at the moment is the door, the window, um, the wall that was between the sort of anteroom [00:33:30] where Crystal said the girl sat, um, uh, and this, the bigger office. And they, those are those two windows looking out onto Ridgway Street. After Mackey was sent to prison, he declared himself bankrupt. It was difficult for the official assignee, which handled Mackey's trust account, to work out how much his business was worth without his help. So rather than transferring the case to Auckland, the officials decided to bring Mackey back to Whanganui, where the records and creditors were. Against this, Mr Silk, the official assignee, wanted the case transferred to Auckland, and was [00:34:00] worried that Whanganui didn't have the expertise to handle the case. And writing to the Justice Department in Wellington, Silk explained he would not, he was not the only one who did not want Mackey back in Whanganui. And he said, Yesterday I had occasion to visit Mrs Mackie, who's assumed her maiden name of Duncan, and she requested me to endeavour to arrange matters so that it would not be necessary to bring the bankrupt to Whanganui. She expressed herself very strongly on the subject and appeared to be very distressed at the prospect of Mr Mackie being brought to Whanganui. Um, it is impossible to wind up their stakes. [00:34:30] Satisfactorily without the assistance of the bankrupt but suggested in view of the position of Mrs. Duncan It might be advisable to have the bankruptcy transferred to Auckland, but that's not what happened They did actually bring Mackey back to Wanganui and he spent about a fortnight there Helping the officials clear up his business affairs and I came across this photo in a book memories of old Wanganui and You know, was excited. Well, it's a 1920 Studebaker, apparently, which is the right year. And, but that man hopping into the car looks nothing like Mackie. But [00:35:00] the transfer from Mount Eden back to Wanganui was in November 1920, five years after he was sentenced. And what's interesting, though, when I looked at this photo is that everybody apart from the chauffeur is not actually looking at the guy getting into the car. They're looking at someone else. And You can actually see that there's a person just behind there, um, about to climb up in the car. And I do wonder if this could be Mackie. There's a reference in one of Blanche Vaughan's books to him, um, it's anonymized, there's a character called [00:35:30] Etiocles, and she wrote that once he was taken on transfer, not in prison garb, I'm glad to say, Through the very district that he'd once faithfully served, many prisoners would have welcomed the journey as a change. But to one of his sensitivities, it was the worst of possible tortures. I often had occasion to fear for Etiocle's brain. So, uh, no one agrees with me about this, but I just still think it could be him, and it's.. He had very distinctive ears. Um, I've collaborated [00:36:00] with a number of photographers, including Anne Shelton, who's there. That's Bill Milbank, former director of the Sargent, and my friend Des Bovey, who set up the Whanganui Gay Rights Group, toasting Mackie when Anne had Organized for the stone, um, with Mackie's name to be gilded, which I'll tell you about in a minute. Um, but Anne Lee Mitchell Anion, another photographer that I work with from Whanganui, we all went up to New Plymouth Prison. And Anne took this photo of the prison that had just closed in 2013. We were keen to go there because the prison, [00:36:30] That's me standing by that same, um, corridor. It was largely, you can see it's really, not really that different from, um, when it was open. The cells were 7 by 10 foot, and they were the smallest in the country when the prison was closed. Just jumping to London and Berlin, um, This photo is apparently the, um, the earliest photo of men cruising in London, um, before the 70s. Taken by Montague Glover, um, that's in Trafalgar Square, very close to [00:37:00] where Mackie was based, in the Adelphi area, between the Savoy Hotel and, um, Charing Cross. Um, we found Mackie's will in Berlin, um, if you read the book you'll see that it was quite a saga finding this. And Mackie mentions a man, Chris Craggs. with a serial number, 2nd Battalion Coldstream Guardsmen. And in the book I explain that the Coldstream Guardsmen were very famous for selling themselves for sex in St. James's Park. And independently there are all these [00:37:30] references from Hector Belytho's writing, expat writer, gay writer, um, in London, to make he going almost every evening to St. James's Park. And it took a few years for the penny to drop. If you're doing that, you're not going to get a, um, good photo of Buckingham Palace. Um, and there was a second statement, that 1926 inquiry, just to say that that said, uh, it referred to a written statement made by Cresswell some two years after he was wounded. And there are some references in the [00:38:00] prison file correspondence to a friend of Mackie's going to London and on the advice of a lawyer who was at school with Mackie, um, talking to Cresswell. So I think there was, and there's a letter. Had, um, in the letter register that came in to make the imprison. So there was some sort of connect, contact. So what, what was that second statement or what happened to it? Um, oh, sorry, that was just a, that's Crestwell, um, from an album of photos kept by Lady Otoline Murrell in, um, the Bloomsbury set. [00:38:30] And in Berlin, uh, this is Petra Hurek, the first person I ever met. So that's us in 2007 on my first trip to Berlin, when I had next to no German. And, um, so there's Petra with me at the German Historical Museum. But the place that was really helpful was this, um, grandly named Geheimnisstaatsarchiv Preußischer Kulturgesetz, the Secret State Archives Prussian Cultural Heritage Foundation, which is even in Archive Street. [00:39:00] Um, and when I, that's what, where I found the investigation file, which most of the information about what happened in Berlin is from. And it's a huge big file of the, all the investigation that the detectives and police did into the shooting of Mackey. Learning German, I've been told about false friends, words that are not like what they look. Words that are not like what they look similar to in English. One of these is bekommen, meaning not to become, but to have or to get something. So I got told that German kids come here and say, [00:39:30] I'm becoming a hot dog. And so when I asked this archivist where I was meant to pick up my file, she pointed to this. door across the room and she told me, you go to that room and then you become the file. Which, working in an archive is a marvelous metaphor for historical research. And the third photographer that I worked with was Connor Clark, uh, who was living in Berlin when I visited. That's Connor in Wedding, one of the places where the riots were happening in Berlin. That's [00:40:00] Connor in Neukölln, just across from what used to be that clothes shop that is now the chemist shop. And Connor took that photo of me, um, outside the shop. And it was always a highlight, actually, of all the trips, most of the trips I went to Berlin, that Conor was there. And um, and then Conor got the, um, Sergeant Gallery's Artist in Residence at the Ty Lee Cottage in 2017 2018. And I was really excited to find this photo of the police outside that clothes shop, and that pretty much tells, shows us the spot where [00:40:30] Mackie was shot. Another mystery is what happened to the bullet that killed Mackey. Autopsies were ordered by the police for all those killed in the street fighting. The two doctors who completed the autopsy on Mackey confirmed that he died from bleeding caused by a shotgun wound, but also explained how he was shot. And this was the, this is the translation from that report, it says the bullet entered the middle of the abdomen immediately above the pelvis in a left backward and upward direction and came out at the back above the left main trochanter, which is the bones connecting the muscles to the upper part of the [00:41:00] thigh bone. So weird kind of injury that it sort of bounced off the pavement, maybe, and went right through him. But no bullet was found, making it difficult to tell whether he'd been shot with a police weapon. So that's the spot today. And then a friend of mine in Berlin was actually able to overlay the, the, um, the two images. I do wonder if the police had the bullet. Um, there is actually, unbelievably, there's a whole book about the three days of fighting, um, [00:41:30] by a, French historian, Leon Schumann, um, and the fighting was known as Blutmei, Bloody May. So that Blutmei Berlin 1929, Dichtungen und Wahrheit 1991, um, Poetry and Truth. So that's a reference to Goethe's biography, autobiography, and Dechtelman, I've been told, implies invention, something made up, poetry in contrast to truth. And the book exposes the fabrications and falsehoods of the police and [00:42:00] the authorities. There were a number of, um, false, false statements, and Sherman was outraged about this and went through the archives, and this book was how I found Most of the sources in Berlin. Oh, and just to show you that that's a, that's a map from Sherman's book. Um, which this, this is the, that's where Mackey was killed. And just to show you, this is the sort of area that was cordoned off. And these are the barricades. Um, here that [00:42:30] he couldn't get past when he came in a taxi, but you might be thinking about, um, if you're thinking about Berlin in 1929, um, and police falsifying evidence, you might be thinking about Babylon, Berlin. So on my way home, um, on the metro down, this is the Hermannplatz station. So this is where Mackey had driven from down to where he was shot. Um, One night I, so, it normally looked like that, and then when I went back, it looked like that, and it, we had all these magazines and newspapers [00:43:00] from May 1929, and I'd just been with this woman, Barbara Kiefenheim, who'd said to me, you need to find these, um, these magazines, you should look at these as well as the papers, and there they were there, and it took me a minute, and There was a case with, um, Things for Sale and, um, Reichsmark, uh, yeah, Reichsmarks. And it took me a minute to tweak that they were addressing the set. It was nearly midnight and they were getting ready for filming of Babylon Berlin. So that's based on that book, Der Nasser Fisch. Because I was in Berlin and people said, [00:43:30] You need to read this book. It's, it's all about these riots. And then it got made into that series. I didn't actually know about the series, but this is 2016. They were filming it. It got released in 2017. Lots of people will probably have seen it. It apparently is still the most expensive series ever made in Germany. And it was a great, um, series because so much of what was around in the 20s has been lost. Uh, this is what the building where Mackie, uh, lived. Uh, this is in 1944, I think, a survey [00:44:00] of bomb damage. So that building is still there. I mean, this is the classic. Style of architecture, the five stories, and I mean that's as close as I can get really to seeing where Mackie lived, because the three places he lived are not there. One time in Berlin, I rented an apartment across the road from there, so it's a children's playground, and that gives you an idea of the sort of buildings that are there now. That building, remarkably, did survive. Um, just quickly, this is a [00:44:30] letter that Mackie wrote in 1920, um, talking about someone, an artist called Alastair Campbell, and he's writing to Government House, recommending this young artist, architect of great promise. In the prison file, you can see that Alastair Campbell was in Wellington, then he went to London, and He was a beneficiary in Mackie's will. And I can't help wondering that when the uh, housemaid in the pension where Mackie was staying was interviewed and she said Mackie's friend who'd already moved to our pension a week before Mackie Oh, [00:45:00] because Mackie had just transferred um, flats actually when he was killed Um, she just talks about this man coming in and inquiring whether Mr Mackie had moved into their pension and at the same time informed us that Mackie had been shot in Noika on Friday. I do wonder if that was Alastair Campbell But yeah, man who never married, died in England in 1944. I have made contact with some of, um, his family and people who knew him, but they don't really know much about him. Um, and then the, [00:45:30] um, apparently Mackey got a job, um, working at the university. Uh, someone wrote, uh, told a newspaper in London that he'd obtained a post as a lecturer in English at the university. And Mackey was wearing a greenstone tiki, apparently, that had been given by people in Monganui. Um, that actually ended up with this man, Pembroke Stevens, who was the executor in Mackie's will. Um, Mackie, again, just before the book came out, I um, found this story, a [00:46:00] report of a ball in Berlin, and it was a fancy dress ball, and Mackie said, I did not get a fancy dress, but contented myself with a half face mask and a small Māori tiki hung over my shirt like a decoration. Every woman stopped to touch it for luck, one even insisting on dipping it into her glass of wine. But, um. Apparently it was inherited by Pembroke Stephens, who got shot in 1938 working as a journalist in Shanghai. And that's where the trail of the tiki stopped because people from New Zealand wrote to Berlin, um, or the High [00:46:30] Commission in London and then in Berlin to find out where that was. So that's another mystery. Um, just wanted to show you this photo that I tried to include. Chris Brickell sent me this photo. It's in a French magazine. Um, I understand this, working in an archive. The, the archive said they weren't able to photograph their copy because it needed repair. The archive in Arizona that controls the rights for this man Gutmann's photos wanted to charge us 250 American. Um, But anyway, I just thought I'd show you, because photos of the interiors of gay bars in [00:47:00] Berlin are next, they're so rare, and you'll see that the same ones, usually with transvestites, get used over and over and over again. This, this is quite an amazing, um, photos. I'm glad Chris pointed it out, but I'm sorry I wasn't able to use it. Just lastly, where is Mackie's grave? Um, that's the cemetery where he was buried in Germany, as I discovered the first time I went. And, um, you only rent a grave in Germany, so after a rental period, which I think.. It was 25 years, now it's 20. Grave rentals [00:47:30] need to be renewed if possible. So that's what that note is saying. That, um, the right of occupation has expired. You need to go and talk to the office. And sometimes you can't even renew it. It's only if you're famous like the Grimm Brothers. Their graves are kept. But, um, you can't even necessarily get your Grave renewed. But the chapel and the building used to store the bodies before burial is still at the cemetery. But the Mackie family have a photo of the grave, so apparently that's what the [00:48:00] headstone and things look like. And then just the last mystery is really all this to do with the stone at the Sargent Gallery. So, The beautiful, um, sergeant, which is being, um, restored and strengthened and extended at the moment, has a star, has two stones at the front, one in memory of Henry Sargent, and this one about the, um, acknowledging the people who helped the, the, uh, gallery be built. So at some stage after May, 1920, it resulted, and that's what it looked like. That's a photo taken [00:48:30] by Mill Bill Mitchell in the eighties, um, of the stone with it altered. But then, In 1985, the council decided to, um, to restore it. This is the memo from Colin Whitlock, who I did a wee interview with. He's just recently passed away, but he did say to me, you know, if they hadn't done this and this, that story had just been acknowledged as part of Mānganui folklore, it wouldn't have been such a big deal. But, but, you know, by doing what they did, it made it a focus of attention. So that's what it looked [00:49:00] like after it got restored. This is in the Laggans collection here at the library. Um, but by the time I arrived in Monganui, um, the paint had disappeared again in, um, Maki and, uh, Maki's name and the title. But as I told you earlier, Anne Shelton found in the archives that the original specification was for the whole stone to be gilded. So she persuaded the sergeant and council to allow Mackey's Lane to be gilded. You can't see that at the moment. It's all covered over for the [00:49:30] restoration. But what we do know is that, um, before this happened, there was a wreath laying protest. And that was organized during the first Whanganui Pride Week by the Whanganui Gay Rights Association. It took another seven years to get Mackie's name back on the stone. But just to finish, I'll just play you a couple of minutes of Des Bovey, who launched the book a few weeks ago, talking about why that protest was actually in the end significant. And thank you to Gareth Watkins for the audio, which we're going to hear now. [00:50:00] Whanganui was a sleepy provincial town with a well defined hierarchy of families. Mackie's scandal was buried, whispered about only by the best people. By referring to the story openly, in the press and on the radio, we had outed, not Mackie, but the story of Mackie, and by association, the story of his expungement.[00:50:30] The cover up, which as we all know, is always the real story. This was our temerity. This was our offence. I was taken aside more than once And firmly but politely scolded for my vulgarity in airing the city's dirty linen on national radio. The point I'm trying to make is that although the wreath laying was a modest act, even a fiasco, it can be [00:51:00] argued that it marked a moral turnaround. The exact point at which Mackie's reputation At which he began his slow climb from villain to victim and his blackmailer, his slow slide from victim to scumbag. Great events can turn on tiny fulcrums. [00:51:30] I'm not claiming that if the Wong Nui gay rights had done nothing, Mackie's story would have remained buried. Sooner or later, someone would have done something to rehabilitate the man. It only needed a nudge. That that nudge came not from some council official working quietly behind the scenes, but from the hometown gay community. So noisily, so publicly, is a source of [00:52:00] pride to me. I loved it when Des said that, because it kind of pulled everything together and, and sort of connected what happened earlier on with what's, you know, the significance, as Neil was saying, the resonances of the story for us now. And as Roger Smith pointed out, you know, the The story really is a tragedy because there is a lot of evidence that Mackey was sort of on the verge of a sort of a reinvention in Berlin, you know, and as I've written at the end, you know, when he left London in 1928, he was 53, but managed to get a passport showing his age [00:52:30] as 45. The eight year gap was the length of time from the shooting in New Zealand to his arrival in Berlin. Perhaps the move to Berlin was a new start. A bid for reinvention. Charles Mackie's story is one of resistance. Of refusing to settle, of continually challenging norms, of being knocked down and getting up again. Perhaps this is what connects his story with the story of gay liberation. The determined push by queer people throughout history to live their lives. on their own terms. Gilda.[00:53:00] Gilda. Loved your book, couldn't put it down. I have a question a bit more around that question that Bronwyn posed to you around, uh, I guess did you find out much about what the broader impact was for homosexual men in New Zealand around that time? Whether, you know, the reporting of the case or there was a chilling effect or anything like that?[00:53:30] Um, bits and pieces. Yeah, so Matthew's asking, you know, did I find out about, more about that broader impact of the case on gay men, homosexual men in New Zealand, as Bronwyn had suggested. Um, a big bit of evidence is that Hector Bolaifo told his biographer that he left New Zealand because of the shooting. Hector had been mentored as a writer by Mackie. And he just found it terrifying. If a friend who was the mayor, you know, mayors had a lot of respect. Uh, [00:54:00] there was a lot more, the respect for authority, I think, was quite different back then. And I mean, I think it meant that authority could get away with things that they can't get away with now. Um, so that's a real, I thought that was really interesting that, that he was very definite that the reason he'd left was because of that. He went to Sydney and then he went to London. And. There's also, um, Frank Sargesson apparently, um, sent Janet Frame to the, uh, library to get clippings because he'd read about it as a, [00:54:30] as a young man and actually he, he obliquely just vaguely refers to it in a, um, one of his autobiographies. And then just this observation of all of these men leaving New Zealand and spending periods of time in London. Um, I mean, we think New Zealand's small now, it was really small then. And the odds of bumping into someone who knew your mother were a lot higher. Um, so I can see why you'd want to go and just be in a. Metropolitan, bigger, more anonymous sort of space. [00:55:00] Um, Cranley Barton, wonderful Philip Rayner and Gerry Barton both told me about the references in Cranley Barton's diaries here. Cranley Barton from Monganui worked as a lawyer, but was a gay man, and wrote these quite coded diaries. And there's some lovely references to Mackie in London. You know, bumped into, um, he sort of saw Mr. Mackey at the New Zealand High Commission. He pretended not to see me. He looked quite prosperous. And so that's interesting. And I guess one of the difficulties in this has [00:55:30] been to reimagine yourself into the mindset of a time when All intimacy between men was illegal. You know, there was no 16 year old age of consent or anything. And I just think that would have influenced the way people behaved. So, yeah, bits and pieces of evidence. And I think this is kind of building on what Peter Wells has done, what Chris Brickle's done. I know Chris is looking at New Plymouth Prison, which was set 1914 to [00:56:00] 1956, when prisons were all organized by category. Um, apparently to have fantastic Christmas concerts, but then they, they realized it wasn't necessarily such a good idea to put all the homosexuals together. So that policy was changed, but Chris is actually looking in quite a lot of depth at the archival records of that, which is going to be really interesting. So it's an ongoing project. I was wondering if you could tell us a bit more about the ongoing project, because it sounds [00:56:30] as though there's more and more. The ongoing project, it's sort of early days, really, um, we're looking forward to the film. Even at the time people said, Oh, this movie, this is like a movie ending, you know, shot in the dark. Street in Berlin. Um, so that'll be interesting to see. But no, I've, um, people in Maunganui were coming up to me over the weekend. We were there, um, with new bits and pieces of information, which was really great. And I've been really gratified by the reaction in Maunganui because when Puru and I went there in 2004, [00:57:00] people either didn't know about it, or if they did, they didn't want to talk about it. That's if they were from Maunganui. And if they weren't from Maunganui, they couldn't stop talking about it because they just couldn't believe that something like that had happened in their adopted town. But the people who were from Maunganui were quite defensive about it. And Charles Mackie's daughter, Jo Duncan, was still alive then, um, but did an oral history for suffrage, which is here at the Turnbull and in Maunganui at the museum. And that was really valuable. You know, I looked at it initially because Michelle Horwood, who did that, said, Oh, [00:57:30] incredible, speak for three and a half hours and not mention your father once. She actually did mention him a few times, but, um, it's actually, you know, when you listen to someone talk, you can kind of hear, you know, I think you can, their parents, you know, and, and there was this strong character that came through. And the more I learned about her mother, as well as her father, I think you could kind of hear elements of them in there. So that was quite valuable. It's a bit early really, um, there's been some great reviews and things and I'm, but I [00:58:00] am nervously sort of looking at the reaction from Whanganui, but so far it's been really positive and there's been a lot of activity going on with the push to get the meteor building on the rainbow list, which will be really exciting. And the people in Whanganui and the pride group and things have done a beautiful job of connecting it. The meaning of it, with what it means to be queer in Whanganui now. Which I think is really, really exciting. They're explaining it in ways that hadn't really occurred to me. So that's great. So it's a team now. It's not just me.[00:58:30] .

IRN: 3566
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_politicians_shanan_halbert.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004700
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093090
TITLE: Shanan Halbert - Rainbow Politicians
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Shanan Halbert
INTERVIEWER: Regis Perez
TAGS: 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Hawkes Bay; Member of Parliament; New Zealand Labour Party; Regis Perez; Shanan Halbert; Wellington; education; takatāpui; whānau
DATE: 22 November 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Shanan Halbert from the Labour Party talks to Regis Perez about what it's like to be a Member of Parliament.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: October 2023
TEXT: I grew up in the Hawke's Bay and, uh, I guess my sense of leadership came through, uh, the school that I went to, uh, and the leadership opportunities that they gave me. I was very, very lucky. Uh, I, uh, moved from Hawke's Bay up to Auckland to study at university and studied education. And I knew from that time, really, that the transition for me from... a small regional town to Big Tāmaki [00:00:30] Makaurau, Auckland, uh, and to go and study. I wanted to ensure that, I guess, uh, everyone else that followed me had that same opportunity. I saw how it changed my life. I was the first in my whānau to go to university, um, to go and live in the big city, and, you know, that's, that's set a pathway for me. For a very exciting, a very productive, and in many ways a very meaningful, um, [00:01:00] life and career. Um, how has your overall experience been working here? The first year was really tough. Uh, learning the ropes, I think. Understanding the environment, um, both within your own caucus. I came in as part of class of 2020. Which meant we had 65 MPs come in under Jacinda Ardern's leadership in the 2020 election. Uh, as a new person you don't [00:01:30] want to put a foot wrong and so you're nervous and conscious of that at the same time. Uh, the day I was elected, um, sadly my dad passed. And that was quite a bittersweet moment to, um, to achieve something that he wanted me to achieve, but also to lose my best friend on the same day. So, my first year in Parliament was really a mix of emotions, um, trying to do the best thing, trying to manage, um, the grief that, [00:02:00] and the dynamics that come with the loss of a loved one and a family. Um. But learning the ropes, I guess in this place you have to take every opportunity that's put in front of you. Sometimes you, you know, you think that you're, um, not quite up to it or you suffer from imposter syndrome. You, you suffer from that syndrome quite a lot. Um, but the moment that you just allow yourself to step into the role, see how it goes, do your best. Um, but [00:02:30] I've got an incredibly supportive team. Um, of ministers and caucus members, um, who I work with. Awesome. Um, being in a government with the most queer political figures in the world, which I think is pretty cool, um, how does it feel to be among one of them? Well, this was one of my imposter syndrome moments, you know, um, was I Gay enough. Did I know enough about the sector? Was I the right person to lead our [00:03:00] queerest rainbow caucus that this parliament's ever seen? But these jobs choose you in a funny way and you've got to um, take on that leadership role. So, to be that person to chair our Rainbow Caucus, um, you know, people before me, Tamati Coffey, Louisa Wall, you know, significant leaders in the rainbow space. My first bill, uh, was on conversion practices. Um, that was a really tough [00:03:30] one but, you know, something that we all really believed in. I'd followed that piece of work before my parliamentary time, um, when Young Labour and Young Greens presented the petition to Parliament to my colleague Maia Lubeck. I contributed to the Labour Party's manifesto to ensure that Labour had a commitment to banning conversion practices. And then to come in and see it as one of the first pieces of legislation that I was able to shepherd through the house, that [00:04:00] was, that was pretty special. But there was a confronting moment in this place where I really saw, uh, the downside of politics, where the most marginal people. were hung out to dry, effectively, for the sake of politics, and I found that quite sad. The fact in that, that, uh, we used, um, hormone blockers as the, uh, puberty blockers as the reason why we would, we wouldn't ban [00:04:30] conversion practice just didn't make sense to me, and maybe I've lived, you know, in a, in a world that's naive to some of the challenges. Um, that are in front of our rainbow communities, but, you know, that really brought it to the forefront. But I'm really proud at the same time that our members, alongside our cousins, the Greens, you know, that we really challenged, um, uh, a lot of those confronting views that came through. Religious [00:05:00] views that have been around for generations, but don't fit well in our modern world. Um, and it was important for me in particular to ensure that every... child every rangatahi that grows up, you know, has a great sense of identity of who they are, whether that be as Māori like me, as, you know, a gay man like me, um, or as non binary or trans, you know, that we now live in a modern world where people get to beautifully be who They are [00:05:30] and love who they love. So, you know, I'm really happy to and staunchly stand by that. Um, what's your future vision for Takatapui people of Aotearoa? Or where you wanna, you know, see, see us all in, let's say, 20, 30 years? I think the, I think the next few years, um, We could go on two paths, and I think this is where, um, the next election, [00:06:00] um, really sits in front of, um, our rainbow communities and asks the question, what governments achieve outcomes for our rainbow communities? And I'm certainly clear that a Labour led government, um, does achieve that. You know, when we look at marriage equality, when we look at conversion practices, when we look at ensuring that our trans community [00:06:30] can be recognised for who they are on their passport and birth certificate, that is a Labour government that achieves that for our communities. Sometimes that can be a crossroads with our community. wanting outcomes immediately, because they have waited for so long. And, um, what we can achieve here in Parliament is progressive steps, but it's very rarely that things come [00:07:00] all at once. Um, and so that requires patience, both on our side as politicians, patience from our rainbow communities. Um, but also, you know, recognition to know that we are behind our rainbow whānau. We've always been behind our rainbow whānau. Um, but the, the steps of progress are important. And I point to our government's achievements. Not only in this past five [00:07:30] years, but under previous leadership, like Helen Clark's leadership. Um, but we have to be quite frank and real about the prospects of 2023. Um, and that a, um, centre right government would really take us backwards on protecting the rights of our rainbow communities. And in fact, the progress. that we are making, um, and have made over the past five years. There's two parts to our rainbow [00:08:00] agenda, I think, at the moment. One is around, um, the core human rights functions, ensuring that non binary and trans, LGBTIQ communities are recognised equally under the law. It's everywhere that needs reform in order to do that. Um, the best way to achieve that is aligning it with existing programs of work to ensure that, um, that that progress is being made. [00:08:30] And then the other part, for me, is ensuring that given the vulnerability of our rainbow communities, who also happen to be Maori and Pacific communities, who also tend to be young people, that they have, um, the best opportunities in education, warm, dry housing, um, for them and their, their families to live in, uh, that they have access to proper healthcare and that they are recognized within the healthcare [00:09:00] system for who they are. And we can't lose sight of those core fundamentals for rainbow people. And that's, that's the, the additional program of work where a rainbow agenda doesn't sit. Um, independently, you know, from every other agency, my goal is to influence every government agency to ensure that they are achieving outcomes for our rainbow people and rainbow young people. And what we need to look [00:09:30] to, of course, is the way that we organize ourselves in this parliament to achieve it. That, um, people have talked about a rainbow ministry. I think that's one model of how we might get progress. But I also think that we should look into other structures, other ways, of how we, um, bring resources together. How we share expertise and knowledge across agencies, whether that be, um, with, um, [00:10:00] our new health reforms, whether that be in education with the Ministry of Education, in tertiary education, so on and so forth. How do you bring that all together and coordinate it into more meaningful outcomes for rainbow communities? That's our challenge. And I worry that if we, um, went into a ministry independently on its own, That we would miss opportunities that potentially sit in other organisations. So that's a piece of [00:10:30] work that I'm really interested in progressing. What can queer people do to, uh, support queer politicians? I think it's important for our queer communities to know that we are here and, um, We've been a part of their journey and we will always, always back them. The ability to achieve that in this place can take different pathways. And so [00:11:00] sometimes, you know, and I talked about patience before, um, is that I understand why our... Our kui community wants everything now. We've waited so long. Um, but it's important that we acknowledge that progress can come in steps. Um, that it does need to work as a part of this machine, be achieved within this machine. Um, but that confidence that all Rainbow MPs, no matter [00:11:30] which Rainbow MP, have their backs, their interests. And most of all, we are better represented in this place than we have ever been in, in this Parliament. Um, and I also say to our queer community, love us and support us at the same time. Remind us of what's important. Um, but like family, family sticks together. Thank you. [00:12:00] Do you have any gay heroes or queer heroes? Say as many as you want. I've got, I've got a few and it's the first time I probably would acknowledge them as heroes. Um, Georgina Beyer sticks out in my mind because she, um, was one of my first poli uh, experiences of the political system. I wasn't even out then when I met Georgina, but I was so proud of, [00:12:30] um, of what she had achieved as a, as an MP and one of the moments that stands out for me is when she was standing at the front of our parliament when Destiny Church. Um, was challenging their marriage equality and they were saying enough's enough. And here she was giving them a massive serve at the front and I'm really grateful um, for, for being able to watch that experience because that makes us stronger. And so these people have really carved the [00:13:00] pathway for, for people like me and those of us that are in Parliament now. Louisa Wall of course who's been, you know, a long time colleague in the Labour Party. Um, for the work that she's done, again in marriage equality, but, but being a disruptor within the system to, to make ourselves ask the questions of, you know, are we doing the best that we possibly, um, can be doing for our queer communities. Um, and, and these are all [00:13:30] political ones. I look up to Grant Robertson, you know, Deputy Prime Minister, Minister of Finance, you know, um, very proud to have a husband and mokopuna and, you know, um, just a warm, loving man, um, who stands up for our people and our communities all the time. All the time. Awesome. Um, can I ask how your own personal coming to your own [00:14:00] self identity went for you growing up? Yeah. Mine took a little bit longer than some may think. And it's interesting when you meet people at, you know, this side of your life, and they, they assume you've, you've always been out, or always been gay. The truth is I didn't come out until I was 24, and that wasn't a resistance on, on, on my behalf. I don't think, anyway, at the time. I, I've always had [00:14:30] a strong sense of identity of who I, who I am. But, I guess when I... Started to get into my 20s, I had greater awareness of, um, of, of attraction and, um, at some point you follow that through or in the circumstances and realise that that's, that's where you fit and you explore that more and that, that for me happened in my 20s. [00:15:00] At the same time, I have friends that go back to our school days and, you know, they knew back then before I knew. Um, and so, you know, that all comes together. But, I don't think that there's a rush for people to truly understand who they are. I think that's a journey. Um, for me it was the right time. I always had a lot of support from my whānau, um, and still do today. And, uh, 13 years on, being with my [00:15:30] partner, you know, um, I love him, and we've built a wonderful life together where both of us get to work for our Māori and our rainbow communities. Um, for me it's in politics, and for him it's in health. Um, but, you know, the more support that we can give to young people, um, just to total call them over that time of discovery that you don't need to. Um, box yourself into being this, that or the [00:16:00] other. Into being LGBTIQ Um, identity is fluid. And that can reflect different parts of our life and that's okay. What's most important is knowing that love is love. And however that happens and whoever that happens with. You know, that's the beautiful thing of life. Yeah, I agree with that, yeah. Do you have a sort of, your own personal approach to, uh, battle or combat inequality in any sort of area? [00:16:30] I always come back to education as being critical in, in achieving, um, uh, equality and addressing inequality. And, um, particularly for our rainbow community. Um, I spoke about the importance of education, housing and health. They're core fundamentals for anyone in this country to lead a successful and [00:17:00] comfortable life. Um, we do need to, however, um, ensure that legislation That we put in, like the health reforms, is reflective of rainbow communities. Um, that it also reflects who they are in different other parts of their life. Whether that be, um, ethnically, or socio economically, or... Um, where they live across New Zealand, who they interact with. [00:17:30] Um, my focus will always be on young people. And the more we can focus on our earlier years, um, supporting our, our children and young people to grow up as strong individuals, clearly knowing their identity, and feeling comfortable with them. Um, I think that goes a long way when we, um, assist them through some of the battles [00:18:00] that they naturally face in life. Um, but with good education, with good health care, and a really nice, comfortable, warm place for them to live and grow their own family. Those are the, the things that lead to a structured, stable life, and with that comes prosperity and happiness. And prosperity for me isn't about how much you earn. [00:18:30] Prosperity is how much you love yourself, how much you love others. Where your mental health is at, your satisfaction and work. And all of those sorts of things. So there's so many measures on, on what a good life looks like.

IRN: 3564
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_politicians_elizabeth_kerekere.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004698
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093088
TITLE: Elizabeth Kerekere - Rainbow Politicians
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Elizabeth Kerekere
INTERVIEWER: Regis Perez
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Elizabeth Kerekere; Gisborne; Green Party; Member of Parliament; Regis Perez; Wellington; takatāpui
DATE: 25 November 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Elizabeth Kerekere from the Green Party talks to Regis Perez about what it's like to be a Member of Parliament.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I've been, I guess, political since I was a young person. I was a youth activist from when I was about 15, but even before that, I'm around other people who were organizing and I was just kind of supporting babysitting their kids while they're at Hui and things, and so.. About 15 is when me and my friends started actually organizing things ourselves. So, political, addressing, you know, mainly racism and things around anti [00:00:30] nuclear and, and feminist issues. Um, but party political, never thought that I would end up here. On some ways I always thought I would, and then on other ways not. Because.. I always lobbied against the government or, you know, trying to get change from the outside. So it wasn't until I was much older that I thought, actually, it makes sense for me to come into here. I joined the Green Party [00:01:00] about seven years ago, and I was asked to run. So that's when I put my name forward for 2017. I didn't get in that time, but then of course I was elected in 2020. So I feel very comfortable here. It's nobody that knew me before this is surprised that this is where I am. So yes, it's a long time political, but party political, not that long. Uh, [00:01:30] how has your overall experience been here working in Parliament? Overall, I've really loved it. Uh, I think I've come into this place a lot older. I'm older than, uh, many of the MPs who are here. But also I.. My background, especially for the last 20 years or so, I've done contract work, I've always travelled, uh, so there's lots of aspects of the job that I'm very comfortable with how we operate. Things are changing all the time, we [00:02:00] have to be quick on our feet, so I'm used to all those kinds of things. Uh, there's, it's long hours here in the house. And that's fine, I'm a night owl. Um, but also there are no less stars. So, it's, it's a lot of commitment. Of course, you've come to interview me at a time when we're in urgency and we're working till midnight. So, it's, there's a certain level of stamina that's required for being in this place. So, it's really important to make sure you're taking care of yourself and you have a team that looks after you. [00:02:30] Uh, There's aspects of which I, I didn't expect, and of course in any job you don't know what it entails till you're there. Uh, and just having to navigate all the different types of relationships that you have in the house inside your own caucus. Uh, but then with the other parties and then of course with government. And when you're trying to make change, that's the power player. And so, the ability to get things done is, is based on the level [00:03:00] of your relationship with different ministers. And, and, and the government as a whole. So, overall, I'm loving it. I've gotten some good things done while I've here so far, and I'm hoping to do a lot more. With being in government with the most, um, queer political figures in the world, how does it feel to be amongst one of them? I think it's really exciting to have this, I mean, what are we, we're 20, 10% of the whole of [00:03:30] parliament, but the Greens, we're 40%. And we have often, Often had good representation from rainbow people. Really conscious though that we're all cisgender, all 12 of us, and I'm really looking forward to the time when we can have trans, non binary, intersex people. It is absolutely my goal that the Greens are the next people, the next party to put, uh, hopefully put one of them into Parliament. And until such [00:04:00] time, it's really important for us to use us this privilege to open up the space and bring those voices in and be able to speak on their behalf when we're talking to bills and when we're making change in this place. Do you think that might happen sometime in the near future? I'm really hoping it's the next election. I'm hoping next year we can get someone trans, non binary, intersex. I am putting the word out. It's like, we are looking for you. Where are you? Because it's so.. It's so important. We do as much [00:04:30] as we can, but for our communities, need to see themselves represented in a place like this. It's the house of representatives. And how do trans, non binary and intersex people see them represented? We, who are cisgender, can only do so much in that respect. We can speak to the issues we can't. Uh, we, we can't represent them. Do you think there's more we can do for the trans and non binary community in Aotearoa? Always. Always. The sites of [00:05:00] struggle have changed over decades, and that's where we have to put a lot of energy into. Things are not perfect for everybody who's lesbian, gay, bisexual, pansexual, by any means, or asexual, aromantic. It's just.. listening to what those communities are telling us need to happen, uh, shout out to people like, uh, Jamie Veal and, uh, Jack Byrne, Counting Ourselves Survey, uh, the mana langi work [00:05:30] that's being done for Māori, uh, for Pasifika who are rainbow and, um, MVP, um, FAF. It's.. It's listening to what they're telling us. They're not new things. We need gender affirming healthcare. We need safety in schools. Uh, we need to, uh, stop non consensual medical surgeries on intersex children and give lifelong care to intersex people. These are consistent messages that are [00:06:00] being said over and over and over again. And so, We need to go beyond having to listen to them say, Yes, yes, we've heard you. Thank you for telling us. Again, we need to say this is what we're going to do about it. Do you think at this current time our parliament has progressed towards equality for the LGBTQ plus community? I think as a whole, this country has been moving towards that, uh, so many years after homosexual law reform in 1830, not [00:06:30] 18 36, 19 86, uh, strides continue to be made with each piece of legislation in and of itself. It, it's, it's a particular thing. It, it gives rights to particular parts of our community, such as marriage equality, uh, But the, the real benefit is that it shifts the whole country's thinking. Because when a whole lot of people thought, oh, this is not appropriate, the law changes, it happens, and the [00:07:00] sky does not fall down. And so people go, oh, it's not a thing. And then they have more people in their family who get married. And then, it's okay. And so it shifts people, it shifts the world. And each one of those pieces of legislation does that in our term. The pressure we put on to make sure we ban conversion therapy, uh, changing, um, the BDM RRR so that we could have our trans, whānau more easily change their [00:07:30] sex markers on their birth certificate. You know, all those kinds of things that shifts the country's thinking. And those people, the loud, really vocal, transphobic, um, awful people. They might be loud, but they get smaller and smaller, and they have less impact. They can still hurt, they cause harm by those words and their actions. But, more and more people go, You know what? What you're saying does not make sense. And actually if we could [00:08:00] finally change our hate speech laws and, and create proper hate crime legislation for discrimination against our communities, then people could actually pay a price for that. But as a minimum, each piece of legislation says this is, your discrimination is wrong, it's not acceptable. And so we move towards a world where the mana of all of us is upheld, regardless of, in celebration of our diverse genders, sexualities and sex characteristics. What is your future vision for Takatapui [00:08:30] people of our country? For Takatapui, it's that we can, in every space in our life, uphold our whakapapa as Māori and tangata whenua on this land, as well as live our lives in safety, in celebration, as just kind of getting on with things without getting hassled every day. In our diverse genders, sexualities, and sex characteristics. [00:09:00] We acknowledge takatāpui is an umbrella term for all Māori, uh, in our rainbow communities, but we know that some parts of those communities are preferring to find other Māori words, and this is an awesome thing, because it strengthens our Māori identity. And, so my vision is, yeah, that we can, Live our lives in our awesomeness, in our whānau, on our marae, but also in our schools and our places of worship in a way that just [00:09:30] allows us to flourish. So our beauty, our creativity, our hope, our understandings, our unique perspectives and knowledges just becomes part of the fabric of this life, of this world. Can you tell us a little bit about your own personal experience coming to terms with your own sexuality? It was such a long time ago, uh, I remember, I think I [00:10:00] was about 11 when I first was attracted to another girl. And so I thought, oh, and I had no name for that. I had no context for that, but I just knew that that was real. And so by the time I was 16, I was pretty clear, uh, that I preferred. Girls over boys. I'm using that terminology because that is definitely what we were using at the time as teenagers. And, and so then I started to come out. I told most of my family pretty much as soon as I [00:10:30] figured that out, straight away. I've been brought up to be quite strong, to be confident in who I am. And so it was the same for me with this. It's like once I realized it, I'm like, cool, this is who I am. I'm going to tell people, and if they've got a problem with it, That's their problem. It's never going to be mine. And I was really fortunate because I know with all the research I've done on Takatāpui and exactly this question, how did your whānau react, [00:11:00] what support did you get, that my whānau were 100% in support. And I know, especially on my Māori side, that some of my cousins did not get that support. And even though my father, who was kind of a bit ambivalent at the beginning, his support was 100%. And so everyone knew, do not muck with my daughter. And that is, that attitude, I absolutely bring into the world now. When I'm working with young people, when [00:11:30] I'm mentoring young people, it's like, do not muck with my young people, because these are my kids, and these are our collective kids we're all responsible for. You muck with my kids, you muck with me. And that, I had the power of that support behind me, and so I grew up in absolute pure confidence of who I was. I am. I'm very conscious that it's a privilege and not everybody has had that and so I have always wanted to help give that to [00:12:00] be that person for others who may not have that in their life. Uh, I couldn't have children. And so there is that thing of wanting to steal other people's and adopt a whole lot of nieces and nephews. 'cause you can never, and, and some, uh, are non-binary and non-binary kids because you can never have too many. Mm-hmm. , how do you sort of bring that or unlock that confidence in a young person, for example, do you ever sort of, Your own approach to it that is best effective? [00:12:30] I think it's because I'm unequivocal. I think unconditional love, unconditional support, um, Any young person that I'm mentoring or anyone who comes to me for any kind of advice, I'm always straight up. Uh, but I have an absolute belief in the power of our young people to know, to know their own minds. So, I don't, I never need to tell anybody what to do, ever. It's like, [00:13:00] okay, here's some ideas, what do you think? Uh, what's going to make sense? Because if you work to the strengths of young people, then.. And you help build that up, but also I think it's that, that strength to say, say in the example, I've had young people where they were having hassles at work. And especially if it's a rainbow context, I was going, you tell them, sort it out, or Elizabeth is going to come down there and sort it out. And, and [00:13:30] so for some of our young people, that's all they need is to know they've got someone behind them. And so it gives us strength because sometimes, in all of us, we don't feel strong in every situation. Sometimes we get triggered of stuff that's happened in our childhood. Uh, there's things we might be having a really bad day and then it's just the next thing and it's, it's just too much. Can't be dealing with it. And so, in those instances, and however that comes about, no matter what it is. [00:14:00] What's the context? To know there's someone else that will step in means often they don't need to do that. Just the knowing of it is what gives you strength and that it's rock solid support and I mean, I, I absolutely foster the thing and everybody I work with knows anything, request anything that comes from a young person goes, gets privileged above everything else that I'm doing, [00:14:30] uh, because my commitment is complete. It's absolute. And I can't give people confidence, but I will always want to uphold what people are doing to help build it. And so they know if Elizabeth's got their back, they can do anything, even if their family doesn't. And I have had many, many instances where I have gone in and talked to people's families. I've talked to parents, I've talked to grandparents, [00:15:00] uh, just to say hey. And my, my saying is always, we understand sometimes, especially in whānau, that, that they get scared. They get scared for their kids. And they worry they're going to get hurt when they go out there, and I always say, love them so hard, you make them strong to withstand what's out there. Don't make them smaller to try to protect them, [00:15:30] because that only, only hurts them, and in the end, that hurts the whole whanau. And for Takatāpui, it's even more important, because if you're disconnected from your whānau, usually that means you're disconnected from your iwi and your marae. That is not acceptable. And so if you have to bypass that, you must do that, because those connections are part of who we are. It's in our blood. It's literally our DNA that connects us to this whenua. When we cut off from that, we cut off from a little [00:16:00] bit of what makes us alive. Do you have any queer heroes? I think there are the, um, expected ones, I would say, uh, our whakawahine, who, especially our elders, and some of them who've passed, I, um, will always acknowledge, uh, Jennifer, Miss Lee Edwards, as one of my mentors. And that generation of whakawaihine, for [00:16:30] whom, um, sex work was the only option that they had in this country. And then that, as, as the years went, there were, uh, those who could get other work until they're, you know, fully integrated in our world now. Uh, but who held their mana always in that space. And.. And I remember I interviewed her a few times and I really loved, she said she [00:17:00] respected her role as a sex worker because that enabled her to live as a woman and she would be always thankful for that. And she could buy the clothes, she could afford to wear the clothes she wanted to wear, she could present how she knew herself to be and, and just so regal and so graceful and of course Georgina Byer again. Holding the space against an onslaught in a time when it wasn't cool, especially, to be incredibly, the first Takatāpui, [00:17:30] uh, the first trans woman mayor in the world, the first transgender MP in the world. And I mean, she left Parliament in 2007, 15 years since we've had anyone else. I really, really hope that next year we can bring the next one in. Uh, but heroes, if I think about that now, it's generally our young people. Uh, I think of ones who are involved in Te Whanau Whanau, uh, my, my Takata Apoi organisation, uh, other ones on our board like [00:18:00] Cassie Hartendall, uh, Tony Tudor, um, Morgan Butler. Again, I call them my kids. They're fully functioning adults. Um, but they, they're incredible young people. They're incredible leaders. They are my heroes. Uh, as, as an MP here, I get to work really closely with Rainbow Greens, predominantly young people. Incredible leaders. Incredible organizers. And just, for them, an incredible vision.[00:18:30] For what they want to see in the world, and it's absolutely my job, and I commit my life to helping make that vision come true. Have you experienced any sort of treatment change being an openly queer person in parliament for better or for worse? No, no, I've been out for a very, very long time. I'm a leader in our rainbow communities. Well, before I got here and in Takatāpui, I've been working and doing things overseas, [00:19:00] including at the UN for a long time on rainbow issues. So. Not at all. No, my partner I've been with for nearly 31 years, and so we've been married for a very long time, so no, no change. I think if I was someone who's maybe been more closet, uh, more stealth, before I got here, and then suddenly I'm being all.. Miss Rainbow, uh, I think there might be some, maybe some backlash, but also [00:19:30] I've got serious attitude. Not many people, uh, have the guts to go up against me. Uh, I'm very friendly, I'm very respectful, but I have a backbone of pure steel. And so, and that, that comes out. I think, uh, and I'm fortunate also in that. Because I've always been staunch. And, and because that's something I do not give people any space to hassle me on. [00:20:00] One thing though about being an MP that I didn't really think about much before I got here is we get a lot of emails from random people abusing us. Now, when we were doing, uh, Conversion Practices Law and the BDMRR, that's Births, Deaths and Marriages Relationship Registration Act, I was inundated with horrible, uh, emails and [00:20:30] That's part of the job, but it was really, really heightened at that time. So when there's a big issue that comes up, then I get additional abuse, but it's all, it's not even anonymous people. It's people's home emails. Sometimes they'll put their address and phone number on there. They own their hatred. And unless it's really serious, we do, we just delete. But it's those heightened times that then we see [00:21:00] an onslaught, but It's very, you're a person advocating for trans people, how dare you, or you're a rainbow person, you shouldn't be in parliament. Mostly though, it's Māori, it's the Māori stuff, it's the racism that is the worst. And of course as Takatāpui experience that interwoven, uh, intersectional oppression, racism, discrimination, whatever, uh. that entwines all of those things. But yeah, that's, that's when I see the change. It's [00:21:30] like, it's really nowhere, we're talking about trans women's sports during the Olympics, then we got heaps of mail about that because I'm out there saying, uh, she's a woman. Full stop. Of course she should be in the women's competition. Full stop. That's it. That's what else is there to say. And then I get heaps of, um, but inside here. Oh, good. Oh, good.

IRN: 3563
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093087
TITLE: Glen Bennett - Rainbow Politicians
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Glen Bennett
INTERVIEWER: Regis Perez
TAGS: 2000s; 2010s; 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Glen Bennett; Member of Parliament; New Plymouth; New Zealand Labour Party; Regis Perez; Wellington
DATE: 9 November 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: Rainbow Room, Parliament buildings, Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Glen Bennett from the Labour Party talks to Regis Perez about what it's like to be a Member of Parliament.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: October 2023
TEXT: I was always political, uh, and always engaged in campaigns and engaged in my local community. Um, I grew up in the Salvation Army, which was very much a, a social service faith organisation that was around, uh, helping, uh, the people in need. Those who struggle in our communities. And so that was, it was always a part of who I was in terms of how do we, how do I make change and make a difference uh, in, in my community. [00:00:30] Uh, it was, so it was never from a, from a political in inverted commas with a capital P. It was always just being amongst people and fighting for people's rights, fighting for people's jobs and, and then I got asked to run. And no, actually no, I did get involved in the Labour Party, um, a number of years ago on the edges and then became a member with no intention of being an MP or a politician because that wasn't my thing. I was always grassroots. I was always [00:01:00] the sort of organiser. Um, and then I got asked. And I said no, and then I think another cycle went by and they asked me again and I said no, and then the last time they asked me. Just I think things were a bit different and, and I thought why not put myself out there and try. And the reason I always said no was because I never saw myself as a politician. Um, I wasn't educated, uh, I wasn't some high flying... name or business owner [00:01:30] or lawyer or have some huge public profile. I was just a community person so I kind of thought that politics and that didn't really match and then when someone talked to me about it and the, you know, it was called the House of Representatives and that really challenged me because Um, to be a house representative includes representation, right? So, it's not just lawyers and accountants and business owners and famous people. It's actually people in the [00:02:00] grassroots. So I said yes, and here I am. Awesome. How has it been so far? It's, it's a crazy, it's a crazy place that is relentlessly, uh, greedy on your time and your life. Uh, so you have to prioritize it. It's a real privilege to represent, but it's a heavy privilege 'cause you hold the weight of your [00:02:30] community and the weight of, uh, the weight of the, the, yeah. The present and future of your nation on your shoulders and as a, you know, in a back bencher. But that still weighs heavily on you in terms of, of people look to you. Yes. And they critique you and. So it's, yeah, it's, but it's, it's such a privilege and such a, the opportunities you get are incredible and the places and spaces you get to [00:03:00] go into and meet people, um, yeah, it's always just, it's a humble privilege, but it's a heavy, like I say, it's a heavy privilege to kind of hold the weight of, of your community, and The direction of your nation, you know, no easy, no easy kind of, um, CB requirement. Yeah. Awesome. Um, have you experienced sort of any like treatment change with you being, um, like openly gay in parliament or any sort of things like [00:03:30] that? Positive or negative? Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, yes. Um, so, Well, I'll start from, I'll start with myself, right? So then move beyond, beyond myself. So, the first meeting I had, when I, when I get to the point of, um, the local Labour membership in New Plymouth saying we want you to run, and I remember meeting with them for the first time, like I knew, I knew all of them, we were friends and I'd worked with them. [00:04:00] And I had this, I think I had this internalised homophobia in myself. So, I remember the first meeting we had when they said, Look, we think, you know, you, you need to sign an adult line and put yourself forward as a candidate. And the first thing I said to them was, You do know I'm gay, right? And everyone in the room looked at me and went, uh, Uh, yeah. Uh, pretty obvious. Um, but it was funny. It was a personal thing where I thought, well I don't know if my community's really, you know, I'm a Pākehā, you know, middle aged [00:04:30] man, so I've kind of got all these tick boxes of privilege. I'm gay as well, and I just, so my first, I think, bit of homophobia was towards myself. And so then getting across the line and then having that room, all of them looking baffled and like, why would you even bring that up Glen? But for me, it was something I thought, living in the provinces, you know, living in Taranaki, You know, there's real diversity, and there's a real arts community there, but it is still really conservative. [00:05:00] So, so yeah, the first thing probably was me. Uh, on the campaign trail definitely had, had quite a bit of pushback on, like not huge, the ones and twos, not the, not the tens or thousands, but the ones or twos who would challenge me on, There's no way I could represent them because of who I am, which I still find baffling because people don't question whether you're left handed or right handed, or don't question whether you are, like I [00:05:30] say, a trained lawyer or, you know, so how, I don't know, you know, you represent, as a representative, um, you're open. To represent all people, just because you happen to love someone of the same gender, or just because, you know, your um, your gender at birth doesn't match the gender you are now, that doesn't change your ability to represent all people. So, so I mean I had, I had some [00:06:00] letters, some phone calls, I remember being at a, at a meet the candidates debate, where someone confronted me, and And so that was, I'd say it was neither here nor there, but it really, it still does kind of, you know, kind of, it can catch you, because you kind of forget sometimes what it's like in your world, but, you know, I'm kind of at a place now where you do forget that there is still discrimination and there is still Um, bigotry and there is still, um, [00:06:30] people who, who can't accept us and, and then something happens and it kind of catches you off guard sometimes. In this place, like, as a, as an MP, um, again, there's been a couple of times when comments have been made, again, by constituents, which haven't been helpful, uh, and then, I guess, the biggest piece of legislation in my term, what has been the Uh, the Conversion [00:07:00] Practices legislation which basically, well it doesn't basically, it bans the use of conversion practice or theory, therapy on an individual change their gender or sexuality. So during that there was, um, there was tens of thousands of Submissions, and then we had to sit on the submissions, so when people make a submission they can write it in, and they can choose to make an oral submission. And so to sit through that, I wasn't traumatised by that, but it was, [00:07:30] it was nuts. Like, again, you think about how we're a progressive society, we've moved on, things are going wonderfully, and then you get this really conservative person who just... Who does pretty much just spit out hate or, or things that you think, Oh, I thought we were in the 21st century, but obviously we're not. So, you know, there's been those few moments, but in general and with my colleagues, it's um, You know, I feel affirmed and, and another nice thing about this [00:08:00] place in recent years is bringing families and including families within parliament and going to conferences or being able to bring your partner or your husband or your wife or your family to the thing. So, being able to have my husband attend events and be part of The, the Palmtree Fano has been a, yeah, it's been really cool. Awesome. Um, you moved around a lot growing up, didn't you? And, how was that, you know, sort of when you're sort [00:08:30] of dealing with your own identity and stuff like that, you know, you're always never in one place or too long in another place. Uh, was that tough? It's probably quite good because I could sort of hide. Yeah. So you didn't get too close to people. Uh, so I think that was the, and for me, you know, my, I didn't come out until I was late, until I was older, uh, and so I know as a young person, um, I was always social, but cautious, only from a young age, [00:09:00] my sexuality, although I kind of articulated it, all that sort of thing you often hear, but, um, I think as I started to kind of get words and language for it, It was quite petrifying thinking if people found out. And so moving around lots was, um, yeah, it was always hard to lose friends and move on. But then at the same time, I say you could not be someone else but you, you could ensure you protected yourself from getting too close to people for then maybe to discover [00:09:30] you know, who you are. Truth, truth, that kind of thing. So I'm gonna look back now and you, I, you know, I'd laugh at it, but yeah, it's um, Yeah, they're probably, but the other side of that probably would be if I'd been in one place and had stronger relationships, maybe I would have felt more affirmed to be more open and honest earlier, but we're here and you can't change history. Exactly, yeah. What age did you come out? Well, several, several ages, [00:10:00] um, cause there's lots of, uh, So, I came out, the first time I came out, well, when you say come out, like when I first articulated to someone, uh, I was 19, uh, when I first came out to some of my family, I was 21. And in that, in the meantime, I had some, um, I came out to a few other people, but [00:10:30] very, very few. Like, I was very cautious and very protective. I was in the church as well, so it was sort of, I had that kind of sitting on my shoulders and, you know, the fear of what that meant. And then a whole other decade went past. And, although I would come out, you know when I say come out, I'd disclose to the odd person here or there, it wasn't till, jeepers, I've got to do my numbers now, it wasn't till my thirties when I actually, [00:11:00] uh, I was about thirty four, when it was, when I fully, when I fully came out, whatever that is. So I came out to my parents for the second time, because I'd come out to them in my early twenties and then in my early thirties, I actually said look, um. Yeah, just to be respectful of them. Um, you know, I'm not gonna be silent anymore on myself. I'm not gonna shout it from the rooftops. But I'm gonna be honest about who I am and... Yeah. Was that a supportive environment? Or a supportive [00:11:30] final you grew up with? No, it wasn't. It, it was, as I say, the subway shalami, you know, for a bit of history. Um, you know, the piece of legislation, the first piece of legislation in this room, is the 1986, um, Homosexual Law Reform Bill, which basically decriminalized... Me. And, you know, the rainbow whanau from actually, um, being who they are. Um, and the Salvation Army was a big part of trying to stop that. Um, and so I, [00:12:00] as a, as a sort of 8 and 9 year old, I don't remember a lot, but I do remember sort of trying to figure out what was going on in that. So that was always sort of sat in the back of my mind. And, you know, my parents being good church people and coming from a, In an era where it wasn't talked about or it wasn't condoned, um, it was tough and I know that, you know, initially they would have hoped that I didn't come out or just kind of [00:12:30] kept quiet and carried on with life and it was all good, but um, but then to that, from that to when I got married. Um, my dad actually officiated our wedding and was, um, you know, was the, the, the celebrant who actually got us to talk to us through our vows and signed the... So you know, so it was a huge, so from that kind of, that fear and panic originally when I first came out to them years ago to, you know, to my father being the person who actually, um, married us. Full circle, man. I know, I know. [00:13:00] Um, what could the Queer, uh, Queer community do to support Queer, uh, politicians? Keep turning up and keep challenging us, keep being a squeaky wheel. I really think in this place and in lots of parts of our culture and our world, unless there's a constant reminder of who we are or a constant reminder of where [00:13:30] we'd need to keep going to, sometimes it can get lost in all the other things going on. I really think that, that we're moving in a good direction as a nation, in terms of inclusivity, in terms of our takatāpui, rainbow whānau, but I still think we've got a way to go. And I still think there's trauma, and I still know there's people who are too, you know, too afraid, or [00:14:00] are still in a place where rejection by family or colleagues or friends is... It's still a thing. And so, what I'd ask is that our Rainbow whanau just keep, continue to push, nudge, challenge, and continue to be that squeaky wheel that ensures that we actually continue with the work that needs to be done. Like I, like this year's been a good year in many ways in terms of support, [00:14:30] in terms of government funding. But again, it's still, it's still small chunks of money, like we've put, well I think it's two and a half million in this year's budget over the next couple of years into our intersex young people around safer, easier access to, um, just to medical support. Uh, you know, it's looking at sort of 8 different parts of the country where, um, you know, their intersex whanau has, um, can feel safe going to, to seek out whatever sort of medical attention they need, whether [00:15:00] it's just the day to day stuff or, um, you know, there's those kind of things, there's, there's us putting funding, um, into our transgender community, uh, in terms of healthcare as well, but again, it's, it's still small amounts of money, uh, that I know that goes away. Thank you. But it doesn't go all the way to full inclusivity. What's your sort of future vision for Takatapui people, Aotearoa? Well, I just want us to be a country that is inclusive, and it's a word we throw around, [00:15:30] but it means that... I mean, my dream... Is that no one has to come out, whatever gender orientation, belief system you have, that the whole notion of coming out is no longer a thing. That's the hope I have, where it's, because you have no need to come out, because there's no story, or backstory, or, um, justification, or, you know, like I was... at the airport on Tuesday morning and, uh, [00:16:00] a gentleman came up to me and, uh, talked to me about his trans son. And they, they, they took money out on their mortgage this year to ensure that he got top surgery because they could see the, how important that was and, you know, the binding was painful and it just, it wasn't, it wasn't freeing, it was still oppressive. And the fact that You know, this, this family went, look, we're gonna, [00:16:30] you know, add some more cash to our mortgage to ensure that our son can have the surgery that's necessary. And I, it is awesome, right? And we put a little bit of money into that space, but I would love to be in a country and have a government that's ensuring that people, you know, aren't having to, you know, I think there's, there's a responsibility on families to, you know, support and put money into their, into those spaces, but the fact that how do we ensure that our medical professionals, our services, that there's funding [00:17:00] there to help those, because there aren't, there are people around who don't have the funding or don't have the ability to add money to their mortgage to, you know, to support their, their whānau. So, yeah, I want it to be an inclusive place where no one ever has to come out and that this, you know, The medical services, the social services, the mental health services, you know, are fit for everyone. And you don't have to tick a box to be this or that or the other thing to access a service. Who's [00:17:30] your gay hero? Ooh! Well, so I go straight to Harvey Milk, because he was a politician. Um, and he was, you know, he was the first openly gay politician. I feel like it's a cop out though, that one. I mean, I don't know, he is a hero, so I don't mean that in a dismissive way. Um, I mean, I've, I've, I remember, I knew nothing of him, and of course the movie came out, so I watched the movie and then sort of started to read about him and understand who he was, and, you know, he had a very short, um, [00:18:00] tenure as, as, as the mayor, uh, until sadly he was, he was shot and killed. Uh, I mean, the other one that comes to mind is Georgina Byer. The fact that she, in the late 1990s, in little old New Zealand, was the first, first transgender member of parliament, I think is absolutely incredible, and the work she's able to do. And the challenge I have, [00:18:30] again, sitting here as a cis gay male, um, is that she's been the first and the only transgender member of parliament here in Aotearoa. And I think we need to be having that conversation around diversity, even within our own rainbow community.

IRN: 3562
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_politicians_tangi_utikere.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004696
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093086
TITLE: Tangi Utikere - Rainbow Politicians
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Tangi Utikere
INTERVIEWER: Regis Perez
TAGS: 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; 2020s; Deputy Mayor; Member of Parliament; New Zealand Labour Party; Palmerston North; Regis Perez; Tangi Utikere
DATE: 22 November 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Tangi Utikere from the Labour Party talks to Regis Perez about what it's like to be a Member of Parliament.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: October 2023
TEXT: How did you first get into politics? Uh, probably actually when I was at school. So, um, when I was at school I was on the student council and those sorts of things as a class representative. And at that stage you're talking about... Things like, you know, types of uniform and, um, what you should do your fundraising on and what you should spend fundraising, uh, on as well. And then, uh, through high school, um, was involved with some interest in our [00:00:30] school board of trustees. And then... Eventually I ended up being elected to the School Board of Trustees as a staff trustee and then spent 10 years on the City Council in Palmerston North. The last four years of that was as the City's Deputy Mayor and then entered Parliament here at the 2020. How has the experience been working here in Parliament overall? Yeah, it's a [00:01:00] fascinating place because the days here are really long. Um, and most days that we are here, um, we sit through till 10 o'clock at night. So you basically are here from first thing in the morning right throughout the day through till 10 o'clock at night. Um, and I enjoy walking around this place because it demonstrates and shows. Quite a lot of change over the years from the, um, people that are hanging on the portraits on the walls, uh, tend to [00:01:30] in the early days be mainly men, uh, mainly white men, mainly white old men, uh, who have. Facial hair as well. So, um, yeah, it's an interesting place, but it's very much a privilege as well. Being able to represent my community of Palmerston North, where I was, I was born, and it's the city that I represent here in Parliament with the Labour Party. And every day is very much a privilege and an honour to be here and represent my community. Um, at [00:02:00] this moment, do you think our government has progressed towards equality for the LGBTQ plus community? I think we're in a situation where, or a position where the government has made huge steps in that direction. There is always an argument that, um, government could do more. Uh, but I reflect on... You know, the last five years under a Labour led government and in more recent times as a Labour government, um, with the support of, of the Greens, uh, [00:02:30] and reflect on the, the changes that have been made and certainly. The people that I talk to, those changes have made a huge difference. So, each step along the journey is a step closer towards meeting community needs. But I'm really proud of the record of this government and what we've been able to deliver for our rainbow communities. Do you have sort of a future vision for Takatapui people of our country? My, my vision is probably aligned with the [00:03:00] expectation of others, which is, you know, I want Aotearoa New Zealand to be a place where everyone feels included, where everyone feels as though they belong here, and that, um, the government, those decision makers are representative. Of them. We currently have a parliament, which is, uh, you know, it was touted as the gayest in the, in the world in the sense that, um, the largest number of rainbow members of parliament, and if I reflect on just six [00:03:30] years, nine years ago, um, quite a different, quite a different space. So, um, yet we are heading in, in the right direction. I'm really proud of that. Mm-hmm. , um, being in government with the most queer political figures, how does it feel for you personally to be amongst. Oh, I think it's fantastic. Um, we have a really strong rainbow caucus. here in Labor, um, as part of the Parliamentary Wing. And, you know, what I love about our caucus team is that, um, everyone [00:04:00] comes to the table, has a conversation, can help out where they can, can offer suggestions where they can. Um, and, and that's just a fantastic thing. It's just like my approach to being a member of the Pacific Caucus as well. You know, we come to the table, we bring our thoughts, our ideas, we represent our communities. Um, and to be part of a team that is making huge change, um, is something particularly special. What can queer people do to support queer politicians? [00:04:30] I think it's about understanding and being engaged with. Uh, the community, you know, we hear as politicians from a number of people in our community and I really encourage people to, to reach out to politicians, to give them feedback, to give them encouragement, to hold them accountable. Um, but we need to do that in a lawful way and that respects people as well. And so, you know, when I reflect on my own local community, I try and go out there and Um, engage with my [00:05:00] community as, as much as I can. Uh, really proud of our Marlborough community, which is the Marlborough Association for Gay and Lesbian Rights, which is the oldest association in the country. Um, and so, you know, for me it's about ensuring that Our community, using a very broad term, whether it's our rainbow community, whether it's our Maori, Pacifica, ethnic, rural, urban, provincial, whatever, that they feel as though they can go along and have conversations. Um, and, you know, this is a government that has been [00:05:30] focused on delivering for rainbow communities. I've talked about the fact that I'm really proud of that. Other members in our caucus are extremely proud. of that fact as well. And so it's about being able to support, to tautoko, and I guess also to celebrate those wins along the way. Do you have any gay or queer heroes? A little bit of a fan of, of, uh, RuPaul in the sense of, um, you know, drag race. Uh, there's a real connection [00:06:00] there to Palmerston North as well. Um, but I think we have so many individuals, even when I think in our own Rainbow Caucus here, um, you know, Shannon Halbert, who's. It's the chair of our Rainbow Caucus, Tamati Coffey, who's been with the caucus for quite some time. I'm obviously relatively new as a new member of Parliament. But those that are leading the way and are shining the torch, um, for others to follow, I think's a fantastic thing. And what we've seen with, uh, RuPaul [00:06:30] over many years is, You know, it could be described previously as a bit of a niche opportunity that some might, might watch, uh, What's On Offer. Whereas now, um, you know, you can go into workplaces, into staff rooms, into coffee rooms and have conversations about, uh, RuPaul and What's On Offer there. Um, and I think that's fantastic. Do you think there's more we can do to support trans and non binary people in our country? I think we need to continue to be open to [00:07:00] conversation, and we need to continue to be quite, um, open in our ability to share and understand. You know, a lot of, uh, the work that's done out there is fantastic work, but it's only really appreciated when there's... Elements of understanding in there. And so, you know, I think certainly with the rainbow caucus Uh as a member of that, I don't profess to know absolutely everything um, but I know that the caucus itself is really open to [00:07:30] hear from members of our community and so You can only do something about something if you know about it. And so that's why being able to be open communicators, to be receptive to feedback, to get out and meet with communities is so important. And I reflect on in the last, um, you know, few weeks where we had a rainbow. to the Taranaki hosted by, uh, our colleague, Glen Bennett, who's the local member of parliament there. Uh, and being able to meet with the local [00:08:00] tertiary institute, being able to meet with, um, Inside Out and other, uh, rainbow organization as well. Uh, being able to meet with the local police to talk about the work that they're doing to make sure that their communities are really safe. Getting out in communities like, um, Taranaki is one way, one example. that demonstrates that we're open to listen and to have dialogue, to have communication um, with key partners, because if you don't have that, then there's huge misunderstandings. And so, for me, it's about [00:08:30] ensuring that those conversations are continuing to happen, um, all around the motu. Do you have a certain personal approach on fighting for or fixing inequality? I'm, I'm really keen to ensure that that issue of equity and equality um... often front and center of everything that we do. Um, one of the core values that attracted me to the Labour Party quite some time ago as a young lad, [00:09:00] uh, was the issue, well the value of, um, equality but also social justice. And so I often see that those two go hand in hand, and so for me, I reflect on being someone who grew up in a community, uh, where my Pacifica identity has, has grown and grown and grown. And there are lots of similarities with members of our rainbow community as well. The, the way in which they have experienced treatment by members of their community is no different to some of our other, um, communities. I think about dawn raids, you [00:09:30] know, back in the late 70s, the impact that that has had on Pacific communities. And so for me... You know, I, I think about my, my parents, and particularly my father, who was born in the Cook Islands, who came here to New Zealand, a, a different land or community where he didn't speak English. He was, uh, his experience was very, very different. That's, in many situations, quite similar to members of our rainbow community. And so, for me, it's always about having that at the back of my mind, um, thinking of, of, you know, my family and the experience that they've had as well. Hmm. [00:10:00] Um. What's your own personal experience with sort of coming to terms with your own identity while growing up? Yeah, I mean, I reflect on when I had told my parents that I was gay and I was about 20, I think, thereabouts. Yeah, I was 20. And so, you know, we'd come from a background where our upbringing was... Um, in the church. And I think it's fair to say that, [00:10:30] you know, some members of my family perhaps, um, didn't struggle with that. But they certainly, perhaps themselves, found it a little bit difficult. Um, I'd like to think that some time on now, those views have changed. Um, and they openly share that the views that they, some of them had at that time was, um, views that they wouldn't have today. Um, but I've always actually, Being one who has just got on and if, if people have an issue with my identity, whether [00:11:00] that's around sexual orientation, age, whether I live in Palmerston North, whether I'm of Pacifica or Cook Island heritage or descent, um, it's not really bothered me. It's not been something that has specifically identified. If people have had an issue with that, that's more about them than anything about me. Um, and that's always been my sort of guiding light in the way that I've approached things, and people have either respected that, um, or they've just either had to get over it or move on, because, um, I [00:11:30] certainly don't see, uh, any point in me wasting my time, um, thinking about how others might perceive me, where I know that I'm very clear in my identity about who I am. Uh, what I want to achieve in this world, uh, what being a member of my local community means to me and my, my whānau, um, that's always been my approach to my own identity. Have you ever experienced any sort of treatment change, for good or for worse, here in Parliament of your identity? I think certainly being a member of Parliament, [00:12:00] um, as I said earlier, is a privilege. And what I have found around this place... is that people have treated me with respect, uh, have encouraged me, have listened to me, um, and have supported me. I've found my experience, and I can only speak from my own personal experience, uh, of Parliament here, um, to be one of encouragement and support, particularly from within my own Labour caucus. Um, I've always [00:12:30] been one who focuses on what it is I need to do when I'm here, and simply... get on and do it. Um, and so yeah, mine has been a personal experience of support and encouragement. Do you have any future projects you're working towards for the rainbow community? For me it's um, I guess supporting colleagues wherever I can. Uh, this year it was, as I've said, it was wonderful to be able to go to Taranaki to support the work that Glen Bennett, um, our local [00:13:00] colleague there is, is doing on the ground. Back in, in Palmerston North, um, obviously supporting the work of, of Malgrave. Um, again, the longest standing, um, gay, lesbian rights, as it was then, organisation in the country. I spent some time with Rainbow Caucus members also at Winter Pride down in the South Island a couple of months back. And obviously as we head into next year, there will be a whole range of different Pride events that I'm keen to support where possible. So for me, [00:13:30] I chair the Parliament's Health... I'm a government junior whip as well. Those, I guess to be fair, are where my priorities in terms of time and representing Palmerston North sits with me at the moment. But where I can, I am more than happy to support the work of our rainbow team. Um, and I'll continue to do that. You know, we, we get across the line, um, pieces of legislation like the banning of gay conversion therapy. Um, because of the sterling work, um, that leaders in our party [00:14:00] Uh, that members of our Rainbow Caucus and those that have gone before us have done. And so I'm, uh, very happy to continue to support them in their mahi. Do you have any advice for young queer people of Aotearoa who are, uh, struggling a little bit with their own identity? Yeah, identity I've always seen as a journey. And some people arrive at an identity destination much sooner than others. Uh, some for whatever reason take a little bit of time. [00:14:30] And I'd like to think that people in our community are able to, uh, reflect who they are, uh, and are able to do that without being judged or feeling uncomfortable. And so, if anything, if you are a young person in New Zealand who is. struggling with that process who, uh, is someone who's thinking about identity and what that might mean for you in your own circumstances. Um, then my advice is to, to reach out. You know, [00:15:00] government, um, has invested some money in, in wonderful organizations. There are fantastic organizations in communities all around the country, whether you're in a rural community or not. And my... I guess would be to, to reach out and have a conversation that you don't have to go through this process or this journey on your own. Um, there are people out there who are more than capable of being a listening ear who won't tell you what to do, but will certainly [00:15:30] guide you on your journey. Um, you shouldn't have to struggle through this. It's not right. And so, yeah, that would be my sort of advice is to, to reach out and have a chat because chances are. That, you know, there will be other people in similar circumstances who, at some point in time, if they knew that they could reach out a little bit sooner, perhaps their journey might have been a little bit easier. And if that's something that people can experience, then it means you reach your identity destination a little bit earlier or sooner, which is not a bad thing, [00:16:00] but we all have to go on our journey in our own way. Do you have anything to say for parents or caregivers who are raising, uh, queer children and, um, advice for, for them to be more open minded about their choices? Yeah, I think, um, you know, I reflect on, on my own parents, um, who are extremely supportive Uh, of me, um, and I've been with my partner for 18 odd years now, uh, and so they're [00:16:30] extremely supportive of him as a member of, of our family, and likewise, my partner's family are extremely supportive of me as a member of their whanau. And so, I, I think my advice to parents who might be struggling or might have an issue or might feel as though, you know, how could this have happened, is that it's actually nothing to be afraid of, it's nothing to be frightened about. Um, Parents, I think, want to just love their children and, uh, people need to, uh, express who they are, to be [00:17:00] comfortable in the identity, because life is far too short, uh, and we all hear about circumstances where, you know, if people felt as though they could come to understand who someone was much sooner. then the heartache, um, and all of that sort of stuff, that negative energy, is just something that people can't deal with, or shouldn't have to deal with. And so my advice to, you know, parents or family members, loved ones, who perhaps might be struggling with the identity of a whanau member, [00:17:30] is to not be afraid, to continue to love that person, and to encourage them to be true to themselves, and, you know, to help them on their identity journey. Um, what do you think could change in the education system with dealing with queer students? Or, um, bullying as well for teachers? Look, I, um, started out my professional life as a secondary school teacher. So, and a lot of that time [00:18:00] was spent as a head of school or a dean dealing with the pastoral side of things. And so, You know, I, I'd love to see a continuation in our education system where we talk a lot about civics and people being able to understand how systems gov, systems of government work, how society works, how democratic democratic processes work. That goes hand in hand with understanding what a diverse. community is all about. And so what I saw when I left the profession was very much a move from when I started away from, [00:18:30] um, just, uh, heteronormative sort of approaches to one that is much more broader and encompassing. So I'd like to see schools, um, Teaching is part of their curriculum. Uh, things that are more reflective of their local community. And I think we're really starting to see that. You know, we're starting to see young people engage with the curriculum in a very different way. When I started teaching, I spent, um, a little bit of time teaching sexuality [00:19:00] and sex ed. And I remember we'd have to go and consult with the community all the time and sign off what our curriculum would be. That's much more iterative, much more formative now. We're actually, that whole process is more organic. Where the needs of the local community is very much taken into consideration in terms of what that curriculum, what that offering is going to be. And to be fair to the Ministry of Education and to school boards, I think by and large they have welcomed that with open arms. Um, and that's, that's only a [00:19:30] good thing because when rangatahi are going to school, what they want to be part of is a curriculum, a classroom, a school environment that is appreciative and supportive of who they are or who they might think they might be. Uh, and if you're a young person sitting there and, and you know, all you're being taught about is, um, the only way forward is a... A straight, normative relationship. That's far from ideal for people who are questioning identity, or for people who are wanting [00:20:00] to perhaps express themselves in a different way. And so, I'm delighted that schools have been much more encouraging in that space.

IRN: 3557
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/samesame_but_different_te_whanganui_a_tara_edition.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004690
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093080
TITLE: Samesame But Different: Te Whanganui-a-Tara edition
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Cadence Chung; Chris Tse; Emily Writes; Ruby Solly; Sam Orchard
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: COVID-19 (coronavirus); Cadence Chung; Chris Tse; Emily Writes; Oscar Upperton; Ruby Solly; Sam Orchard; Samesame But Different; Samesame But Different (2022); pandemic
DATE: 23 September 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: Taiwhanga Kauhau (National Library), 70 Molesworth Street, Thorndon, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the Samesame But Different event held at the National Library on 23 September 2022. Emily Writes chairs a panel of poets: Cadence Chung, Ruby Solly, Chris Tse and Oscar Upperton. This recording was sourced via the livestream. A special thank you to the participants and organisers for allowing this event to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello and welcome everyone. Um, I'm just going to start with a karakia. Whakataka te hau ki te uru, Whakataka te hau ki te tonga, Kia mā kina kina ki uta, Kia mā tāra tāra ki tai, E hi ake ana te atakura, He tīho, he huka, he hauhū, Tīhei mauri ora. Thank you so much National Library and Alexander Turnbull Library and Creative New Zealand and all of our regular sponsors. for [00:00:30] allowing us to be here as a part of the same same but different event. I think this is the last event of the official 2022 festival which has stretched itself and spread its little queer limbs everywhere throughout the country and throughout the months. Um, also shout out to Garage Project for beer for making me not read this in order. This session, um, Is [00:01:00] part of the wider Same Same But Different program and we're really grateful to the volunteer board who put so much time, energy and passion into creating platforms that elevate, that elevate and celebrate our wonderful rainbow writers. Because COVID did its COVID thing across February and March, a lot of our program had to pivot online and be rescheduled and we're really, really grateful for the work. Of both our board and the festival coordinator, Tate, who has been managing these rescheduled events. It's [00:01:30] really hard to put on one festival, but it's really hard. It's even harder to pick up the pieces and reshape things when something big intervenes. So we're really, really grateful to you, Tate, who I can't see, there you are, um, for doing that and being so gracious and generous with your time and all the while also releasing a new book, which you can check out, short films. are published by We Are Babies. Um, speaking of COVID, we chose this panel because [00:02:00] all of these wonderful writers sitting here today have released a book over the last few few years or weeks. Um, and releasing a work is a really vulnerable and thrilling experience and having to navigate through that with all of the things that are happening in our world is really hard, so we wanted to make sure that these incredible writers and their works didn't get lost in the haze of time. pandemics and whatnot. So I'm going to hand over now to our wonderful chair Emily Wright who has also just released a new book, [00:02:30] um, Needs Adult Supervision. Just, was it like two weeks ago, three weeks ago? Um, so I'll leave it to you to Carry us forward. Kiara, uh.[00:03:00] Hoki au kina tauhu o te rohi nei, nō reira, tēnā koutou katoa. Um, kia ora, I'm Emily Wright, um, I'm a queer mum of two living in this beautiful city. Um, I'm an author and writer, but I'm so excited and very, very privileged to be here, um, for This same, same, but different Te [00:03:30] Whananui a Tara edition. On the stage, we have the most incredible queer poets and visionaries. I just feel so lucky to be here and you should all feel very lucky too. To be able to see them. So, um, I know that you will know many of them very well, but I'm still going to introduce every one of them to you. Um, I'm going to start by inviting each of our beautiful poets up to share a poem or piece of writing with you. Um, [00:04:00] We will have a toilet break I reckon. I was thinking, lots of people have asked me if we're going to have a break for whare paku and I was like I'll ask the chair and then I realised I am the chair so I'm making that decision. So, um, we will do that after our beautiful readings you will have time to take a slash. So, um, first up, I am so excited to introduce to you Ruby Solly. Ruby is a [00:04:30] Takatāpue writer from Kātāhu Whānui. Ruby released Tokupapa last year, which is an exploration of identity and survival and belonging, and it is amazing. Um, it's not just me saying it's amazing. One review of Tokupapa in the New Zealand Poetry Shelf said, The words flow like a solo instrument, with the poet as bow and breath. There is stillness and movement, and there is always heart. You [00:05:00] will find yourself in the scene, and the scene will pulsate and be luminous with life. Isn't that amazing? What a good review. Welcome, Ruby. I had this grand idea of writing a poem for my partner every year on our anniversary, but I only ever did one. But it's the thought that [00:05:30] counts. And that poem's done quite well, so I could have done it every year and everyone would have got something out of it. Anyway, this one's called six years and it was published in Columbia Journal. And I don't often write about relationships. I just, I never really have. And there was a poem that I got published in redraft journal when I was a teenager about the same person who I'm still with, Dan, they are real. And, um, and I remember giving them the book. When I thought we were going to break up forever when I went to uni. And I [00:06:00] was like, oh yeah, would you have this book? And we've got that book in our house now with my, my silly little, um, I signed it because I don't know why I thought that would be funny and cool. And it's, it's quite cringy, but it's, it's quite cute. And it's about all the things we did in high school. And then this is the one that came later called, called six years and Jillian Whitehead's actually doing an arrangement of it. Which is really incredible, and Dan's just like, Oh yeah, it's cool, the Jillian's doing my poem, that's really cool. But, yeah, I really like. [00:06:30] Six years. You pin a picture of my mountain above our bed. I cry a river into the sheets. You walk out into the night and wring them out over our garden. Now everyone who eats its fruit will feel their body melt into rain that never stops breaking. Around here, the clouds just kept opening wider. We are trapped here in back rooms and baths of warm petrichor. It presses hands into our throats. [00:07:00] When we were teenagers, we would go months without touching each other. I would lie on the roof and make you new constellations. I'd see all the stars in a long line with you waiting at the end. The stars are so close now. I see all twelve heavens, and you are in every one. You are the house, the home, and the hostess. You are the fireside and the glowing. Never flinching when I come home from the dark. Pulling arrows from [00:07:30] my chest, only to be shot again. Never crying when I pull my bones out to carve them. An auntie said to me that a mountain looks different, depending on where you stand. You, bird like you, soaring around me, watching me through a prism of all the selves we have shed. We keep them as coats, hung dark in our closet. Your light beckons from the porch, unlocking warmth in every house I've ever lived in. We [00:08:00] know those past lights aren't real, but as the moths are shedding dust again, let's say they were. See the care heat gently within the bulb, the warm smell of bread rising in the filaments. From the outside they see the sun and moon of this, the duality spiralling downstream, the bodies that span entire planes pressed into each other. What they don't see is me sitting gentle on the floor, you brushing my hair. [00:08:30] Accepting that I will not cut it until I've finished growing. Because of the way you touch me, I will be growing until my soul is too big for my body. Until it drips from my mouth. At home we're very much just two queers from Nongataha and Rotorua as well. It's like, it's not that romantic most of the time. It's usually a fight over who stole the other one's red bands, to be honest. Um, [00:09:00] I'll probably do another one. This one's exciting in a way because, um, I have a new book coming out next year in, what month, April, hopefully April, and called The Artist and it follows a whole bunch of Kaitahu and Waitaha and Katimamui Pūrākau, kind of the history of the South Island, and then kind of following through. Thank you. A semi fictitious family as well, with a lot of kind of matakiti [00:09:30] elements in it, um, looking at our different cave paintings and technologies. And this is a, this is a scene between a character called Ririmai, who has pounamu eyes. And, um, identifies as they, them in the text. It's kind of never really stated, but we kind of know what's going on. And then there's also a character called Hine Pounamu, who's a woman made of pounamu, and whakapapa is back to the pounamu atua. So this is them coming together. It's called [00:10:00] touching. At this point in time, Rere is only a picture of what they have been taught to understand. Stone is sacred, but still stationary, with a time scale far longer than that of man. Us humans with our fast movements, with generations spilling forth like water from an underground spring. But now in these waters of potential, these ahuru mōwai, stone is alive. A pulsing thing that [00:10:30] rises and falls, each breath building over a century of growing within the lungs. A time lapse of one million years plays out in Deddy's calloused hands as they touch the stone shape of a woman, her green moving against their earthly skin, as if they are the river where they found each other. Their epicentre of themselves, their centre of the circle. When they touch, something stirs within there, something deep and dark, and when that [00:11:00] feeling fills them completely, they open their eyes. In their pounamu gasping to see the worlds of stone, sheltered inside the bones of the descendants of this land. These pounamu spheres, these worlds that contain nothing but forest and ocean, nothing but seabeds and forest floors on which they may lay. And in that moment, light is flooded into Ririmai. No, not light. For all but the stones is still just a black velvet [00:11:30] wrapped around the consciousness. But within that soft darkness she is centered, a silhouetted brilliance of green. Mokokauwai chiseled by an even stronger stone. Delicate hair strands stronger than steel wrap themselves around daddy's hands as it all slips away and they are there. The cursed child now grown and the woman made of stone. Learning how stone takes on the heat of what it is surrounded by, as Rere Mai's hands and body [00:12:00] moves upon her. As she moves over Rere, searching for heat and the gentle pulsing of earthly blood, safe within the body. Their kete of knowledge falling apart at the seams, unravelling to muka. Ready for a new reality to be woven. Nice. This is my last one. It's a short one, hopefully. Um, I've been spending a lot of time recently for my research down a place called Waihao, which is near, near, um, [00:12:30] where is it? Yeah, it's near Morvin and, um, Waimate as well. If that's in between, like, people are still like, uh, um, in between Amaru and Timaru. And, um, this was a story I got told, passed down. And we have, um, an amazing beach there, and all of the stones are very flat, right, and circular. And, um, one of our elders said that they used to be as big as dinner plates, and the kind of scientists that were working on climate change in the area said that couldn't be true. [00:13:00] And so they just went there with a digger, and they just dug them up, pretty much, and proved that that was the case. And, yeah, so, being down there recently, there's things like we can't drink our water. Um, so it makes things, things difficult, and we can't swim in our awa. But this is about those little things we do and about those changes. It's called tōka, so being southern or stone. Where I'm from we had rocks like dinner plates, skipping stones for demigods, standing in their [00:13:30] puddles that became our lakes, throwing the schists gentle across the water. New islands cracking through the sand, painful blossoms moving grey through the air. Workman's stones to shape your bones on, to carve the bone to china, new combs for new women. Flaking out as pieces of the whole, flakes and pieces, splinters of DNA scattering to kahau e whā. Housing stones, stacked up, earth clad and reeking of havoc and home. And here is where we string our hands together [00:14:00] until we can pull them free to let cloaks emerge from our fibres. Shrinking stones now, washing up for these demi gods turned semi demi, these equals to birds, but not to planets. Palm sized tumutumu tapping terra firma and tinctures brewing from kawakawa that grows now in the northern way, even though the stars shine different. Here, Tutumaeao shining like New Year's Eve. It's disco ball dropping silently apart from that tumutumu tap, tap, [00:14:30] tap. Smaller pebbles now, shaking inside the huerara. The kids jump from the bushes, wilting, yelling out, Rah! Rah! I got you now! I'm a lion in the wrong place and you think about them. Like wilting animals in a zoo, caged out instead of in. Those small pebble fences, unclimbable before collapse. We wait for sand, but we are not a desert people anymore. The haeringa from Egypt, widely contested, reported, contrasted, all [00:15:00] while we were coming normal. Growing purako in our bellies, swelling up and sweating out, yelling through mouths that gape in awe at mountains. We are too sore to climb after all of this goddamn growing. They snowglobe us. Frozen plastic downpouring over and over again. Tell us we have always lived on the sands. We should be used to it by now. But we say we had dinner plates made of stone, prehistoric satellites searching for intelligent life below the cusp of water. [00:15:30] And so we dig, sweating the salt back to the shore, aching backs, moving through sand, then pebble, then stone, down and down to the schists. of it. Piles and piles of schist. Rocks to press on your chest to help you drown yourself to save the earth. The most ethical move. Proof that this land is safe underneath. Waiting, waiting, for us to unravel. One grain of sand through the fingers at a time.[00:16:00] That was incredible. You are so incredible, Ruby, that thank you for treating us with that. Um, next we have Cadence Chang, who's, when I was looking at Doing, um, the introduction for Cadence, I was so wildly impressed, as you all will be as well. Her debut collection, Anomalia, um, was released by We Are Babies, and was written in her [00:16:30] final year of high school, which is Beyond incredible. I mean, I was just pissed through my whole last year of high school. It is brand new. It just came out in April. Cadence is a queer Asian student and poet studying classical voice at the New Zealand School of Music. Her musical original In Blind Faith at Batts Theatre was a huge success. And she performs in verbs literal with mad heart, sapphos, [00:17:00] fragments, and song. New Zealand Poetry Shelf reviewed Animalia and said, Cadence has probed into the tender flesh of being human with scalpel and penetrating lens and laid the seeping wounds and insights into the clearing that is poem. They're really good at reviews there, aren't they? Like, you do not get reviews like that in the Hawke's Bay today. Um, welcome Cadence. We're so happy to have you here.[00:17:30] Thank you. I always hate doing stuff like this when all the other people are really witty. And I'm like, great, now I have to be funny. But I, like, didn't plan any jokes, so. You're just gonna have to hear the poem, so. Cool, so this first poem is called Abstract. It's the very first poem in the book. This scientific journal, with findings whole and merely in your mouth, [00:18:00] is upheld to rigorous standards, open to the damp yellow of prying eyes. Not a single skin has been left untouched. Every flesh gets culled sooner or later. We hold ourselves to firm standards of ethics. We never cut them up until we've convinced them they want it. Our findings have been immense. They barely fit in the warm red wet of a mouth. Nonetheless, we present our abstract. This study, [00:18:30] in which the gossamer thread of life is just another thing to snap. Like a neck. Like a neck under a boot. Like a piece of fishing wire to get caught up in the bulging wet slick of a fish's mouth. In which all the poets of old were dirty liars because among anomalies, love is nothing but lust and chemicals. or desire, or selfishness, in which we can categorize humans into unuseful or unwanted or abnormal, in which two girls sleeping together should be surgically [00:19:00] separated, in which the great divider of humanity is nothing more than a scalpel, in which every good scientist performs a vivisection, and every bad scientist tries to understand what does not want to be understood, in which all humans bleed red. But some blood is dirtier than others. Some blood is diseased. In which the flowers are not beautiful, but sticking their bare pussies out into the open air. In which all these people want to do is fuck. They don't care about morals. They don't care about family values. [00:19:30] No love, no dance, no grove, no sound. These anomalies may be allowed to exist, but God help us from actually seeing them here. In these realms of facts and logic. can reason. And after all, humans have always been this way, always fearing the other tribe of cavemen, always fearing things that are different. It's for our own good, really. It helps us evolve. It's old science. And after all, we've always been like this, haven't we?[00:20:00] Thank you. I'm realizing I've chosen really dark poems for all of this, but oh well. Establishing myself as like the emo queer poet, you know, I've got a lot of composition, but you know, start early. This next poem is called Warning Note. Girl, that man wants to vivisect you, wants to dissect you, wants to cut you up and look at your delicate heart, maybe stick his fingers down its [00:20:30] valves to pull out the clots, dark and sticky as molasses, same as the sheep's heart you looked at in science class last week. Girl, he's asking you about the book you're reading, Frankenstein by Mary Shelley. He tells you it's It's rare to see a good woman like you these days. He licks his lips, crusted with white in the corner. He takes a gulp of the reeking beer he spilled all over the floor, and he interrogates you about what you've read. Keats? Wordsworth? Shelley? Milton? And then he asks you where you're from. And then he asks [00:21:00] you where you're from. Then tells you the best years of his life were spent in China. As he's saying this, his friend spills beer on his jeans and he yells about people these days, making such a bloody mess of everything, kicking up such a fuss, and you feel so scared, like all your blood has slipped down into your fingers to make the scalpel go in cleaner, like your whole body is overcompensating being alive because it's not sure how much more it can take. The man tells you that you're beautiful, and never mind that you're 15, if he was a young lad, he would be in [00:21:30] trouble. He chuckles, and you don't know how much more your poor pink sponge of a brain can take, all this poking and prodding. Or how much the knife can sink in without you starting to wince, how much spleen he can rip out. And how long you can still laugh about it. Girl, you better look out for all these men who want to cut you up. Girl, I'm sorry about all this blood between us. I'm sorry that this will happen to you while the flowers out the window flaunt their dicks out. Sticky with semen, unseeing, wordless. No [00:22:00] response, no refuge. Trying to find a happy poem in here. Okay, I've got one. When I was young, my mother would pull me away from the side of the footpath closest to the road. Saying she'd rather get hit first. She called it selfish genes. That love was a greedy act, making sure your [00:22:30] DNA replicates in the warm wash of blood. I imagine these cells dancing. I think of myself as greedy. I think of a heart that offends and demands more than it can have. Like the lunar moth that has no mouth, no stomach, no organs, just paper thin wings and a craving for life. A craving for selfish, selfish love. Like the fat cuckoo sitting in a warbler's nest, crying for food from a mother who cannot provide for such a [00:23:00] selfish child. I'll gorge myself on worms slicking down my throat, or chew the crisp white root of grass with the very tips of my teeth. I'll sink to the bottom of the ocean, resurface as a smooth stone, to be kept and treasured in a little girl's bedroom, plucked and admired with pudgy hands. I love you like you were something to keep, Something to admire on a shelf, Something dripping with the Pacific. Because I am selfish, and I won't [00:23:30] deny it, girl. I wanna taste the sun, even if I might fall. Wanna be something you put away on your ramshackle shelf. Forget about Find again, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Thank you so much, . That was, oh, I could listen to you talk all night. Beautiful. Um, Oscar Upton has followed up his incredible debut, [00:24:00] poetry collection, collection new transgender blockbusters with a book that is equally transcendent. The Surgeon's Brain, published by Te Hirana Waka University Press. The book is a not entirely non fictional account of Dr. James Barry, described by Oscar as a pistol toting jeweler, and eris these are some words that I can't even say. Okay, we'll skip it. Grudge holder, [00:24:30] a vegetarian and obsessive cleaning cleaner and a brilliant military surgeon who served throughout the British empire, traveled the world with a small menagerie of animals and advocated for public health reform. Barry was also a transgender man living in the Victorian era when transgender was unknown and Western thought the surgeon's brain was reviewed as marvelous. Startling, heart jolting reading, so very much looking forward to hearing you, from you, Oscar. And I'm sorry they [00:25:00] chose a bogan for a chair who can't say big words. Forgive me. I'm gonna be up here. I quite like having something to just like, um, if things get rough. Thank you for the introduction. My editor actually wrote that and I've managed to avoid saying it out loud because I also don't know how to say that word. [00:25:30] So just, you know, it's, it's all good. Um, uh, I'm just going to read, um, three poems from this book. Uh, this book has a real narrative to it. A lot of things happen. Um, and so it can be hard to read a part of it. Um, but hopefully I've. I've chosen some poems that kind of fit together as a, as a little, little bit of a story. Um, I also just like to show the cover. I don't know if you can all see that cover, but I think that's actually the best thing about [00:26:00] the book, which is a little bit embarrassing for me, but, um, it's a really nice cover. Uh, the, this, so this is the first poem of the book. It's called Coming into the World. We are never closer. We will not be close again. This is old to you. You have birthed my brother and seen babies born many times. For me, it is all new. Space around my arms and legs is new, cold is new and painful, [00:26:30] breathing in this way is new, and the world is so bright, although I have none of these words yet to describe it. I remember none of what happened. This is the transcription of an imagined memory. Why do I do this? Well, I am played out. On my way out, I feel it. Lying in this bed, it is like I am dead already. The sun does not even reach the paint of my window, and no one calls. My lungs are weary with [00:27:00] too much breathing, and I have too much space between my chest and the ceiling above. Between my hand and my cup. I know too much. I've seen in my long career, baby's hands clenched around umbilical cords, dead babies, dead cords, live babies, live cords, dead men, dead women, live men, live women. In the room where I'm being born, [00:27:30] you start to bleed, and your aunt, not knowing what else to do, drags in another sack of sawdust. You're on the edge of delirium when I come into the world and your aunt says you have a girl now Marianne You don't have me now Marianne. I think of the line I have traced around the globe that led me from that room to this not so far a distance But I took the long way around The long way around, and now I will tell [00:28:00] you of it. Skip forward approximately 16 years. Codename. A life needs rinsing out once in a while. I live in a river town now. A Scotch town. And water runs through my house on April mornings. It isn't really my house, but my real name I wrote in the book by the door. The landlady watched my hand. I think she thought me illiterate. Small pleasure in [00:28:30] proving her incorrect. My codename is a real name that anagrams to itself. Each letter denotes a number, which denotes a house in my hometown. The landlady asks if I'll need meals, and I say I will. The landlady asks if I'll give her trouble and I say I will not. My window looks across the street into another window where a woman teaches people to dance. Some early [00:29:00] evenings I see graceful backs and necks turning in practice. I put my head down and write the names of neck bones onto paper. To sketch the bones of the hand requires the use of a hand and to remember the names of the three membranes surrounding the brain requires functioning dura mater, arachnoid mater, pia mater, tough mother, spider mother, tender mother, [00:29:30] three mothers, Bones in my hands, a stack of books beside my bed. The tenant across the hall from me does not leave his room, and a bad smell emanates from his door. I sniff, trying to diagnose. I observe my landlady's gate and track the progression of her rheumatism. I open the front door. Tough mother. And then the door to the stairs, Spider Mother. And then the door to my room, Tender Mother. [00:30:00] And sleep, sleep. My name dreams of writing itself over the tidy buildings of the town. What will I do with this life that I have in honesty, part stolen? Will I run through houses like an April flood? Will I keep my membrane cradled brain intact, the names of bones stacked like books within it, and finally lying still? This is a 60 [00:30:30] year jump, so a few things have happened. Am I a liar? Well, I've written things down, and in doing so changed them into different things. The biggest lie of all is an anatomical drawing, organs laid out just so on a butcher's block. Some would say my life is a lie, but I know what I'm about. I know what I'm about. I lied to my daughter many [00:31:00] times, many times. I told her the moon was a boat and I had sailed in it. Thank you. Thank you, Oscar. That was definitely podium worthy. Loved it. Um, so, finally, His Royal Highness Sir Christopher James Teese, our new Poet Laureate of Aotearoa, give us a twirl. [00:31:30] He almost needs no introduction. His third poetry collection, Supermodel Minority, is heartbreaking, heartwarming, uplifting, life affirming, and full of life and love. Don't give me that look, we all know it's true. Chris is a treasure and amazing, and is making space in the most gorgeous and generous And that's why he's our Poet Laureate. Welcome, Chris.[00:32:00] Thank you, Emily. Um, I've got three poems for you tonight as well. This first one is called Mike and Carl and Duncan and Martin. Every time a white man writes an opinion column bemoaning the caps locked hardships of being a white man, I feel myself dying in a way that hasn't been fashionable for several centuries. Like being torn apart by a velociraptor while I'm busy [00:32:30] discovering the meaning of life. Or strapped to a torture rack because no one trusts a Gaijin with a Kiwi accent and a creative writing degree. Why be opaque with your reckons when you can just piss on the graves of beneficiaries, then write about it to start a public debate about the right to piss on the graves of beneficiaries. Maybe one day, after their words have repeatedly stabbed me in the eyes enough times, I'll die in a more contemporary manner. A clickbait demise designed for maximum [00:33:00] social media engagement. Like being shot in the back while foraging for herbs with my gender fluid friends. Or a livestream of me starving to death while trying to save for a house. I used to dream of paradise, but paradise is too exhausting. Nowhere is safe from the white man hot takes, screamed at you on the daily, but Not all white men type all the white men on the internet in unison when they should be writing [00:33:30] Hamlet. My most memorable one night stands have been white men, so I can attest to the good some of them contribute to the world. I let them think they were in charge as they claimed my mouth and my body for their own histories. I didn't even tell them where I'm really from, but if only they knew the whole time I was thinking about how I would use them for a poem. How their dirty words are sodden gold in my ears. I [00:34:00] whip my head back and forth, shaking the pardons and contradictions loose, giving myself permission to be aggrieved. To march onto the internet with a fist raised high and look them in the bylines unblinking. This next poem is called Identikit. When asked to explain the lines that lead to now, [00:34:30] you describe the shape of your body as it hits water, the shape of cold water, shocking muscle, the shape of fleshy chambers forced to loosen and acquiesce, the shape of your grandparents in their coffins. The shape of coffins that are too small to contain entire lifetimes. The soft and hard moments we can't forget, no matter how often we turn our backs to the light. You write this poem out of love, but even love can be a [00:35:00] blindfold. The shape of you and your parents standing in your grandparents driveway after being kicked out for talking to your auntie's white boyfriend. Your hand reaching out to someone you don't recognize in a dream. Their silhouette branded upon your brain. You've tried to swallow the night and all its inhabitants, but they weren't designed for consumption. The night, standing in for doubt, as you argue with your own memory, [00:35:30] waking up to the smell of pi dan so yuk juk, the shape of a bowl designed to hold love. Love that is never spoken of, because to do so would silence it. The shape of silence when you tell your parents you've fallen in love with a white boy. The shape of that white boy pressed against your body. Both your hearts shaped like hungry mouths. The shape of your mouth biting into the world's biggest egg. The shape of years spent running before walking, [00:36:00] your knees shredded and bloody, even after you grew the thick skin they said you would need in this lifetime. The years pass like a watched pot, but you imagine steam rising from its wide open body, flashbacks the shape of air being forced into a lifeless body. Some incisions are made to clean blood, others to fast forward a certain end. When your grandparents spoke of life, it was whatever came their way. [00:36:30] No one back then had time to hide behind the sky, to pull strings, to taste control. The shape of control does not fit with the shape of effort. A grounded bird tries to climb an invisible ladder to heaven, to correct a path the world wouldn't let it look upon, in case it traced a line too close to comfort. We all fear the shape of comfort when it belongs to someone else, forgetting that we all look the same buried six feet under. [00:37:00] Both your grandparents appear before you on the night you learn how to take off your blindfold, when you finally recognize the shape of acceptance, and how it might fit among the ruins of your rejections. It goes like this, the fights, the kisses, the direct hits. Unfolding yourself into a shape the world doesn't know how to contain, what doesn't fit, what doesn't hold true. The shape of your name. The shape of a bowl that never [00:37:30] empties. All of these things fit together if you turn them the right way up. You run your finger along the lip of the bowl and remember what it means to be laced in time and not know how to use your hands to feed yourself. You count the years. You feel their shape flooding your throat, making a noise. Making a space for what's to come. Um, and one last poem. This is, uh, a poem inspired [00:38:00] and, um, a tribute to my dear friend, the poet and artist, Sam Ducker Jones. This is called Boy, Oh Boy, Oh Boy, Oh Boy. Oh Boys! Oh, don't do that wasteland thing with my heart, and oh, in case you're considering it, you can love stone and clay with the same kinetic rigor with which you embrace the mountains and the thickened slip that comes to rest between touch and feel. Oh boys, sometimes I wear [00:38:30] myself out like an accelerator in lockdown or speed with nowhere to go. Oh, Geronimo. What do you say about lining up in single file to marvel at each other's crushes and exclamation marks and deep voiced exaltations and asking a choir to press itself along in orchestra tuning to raise a riot we can wear proudly on a Saturday night? At home, oh pitch like a thick black line, oh 440 hertz, a [00:39:00] thing harder than clay is the mind that first thought it. Oh boys, if we could all make husbands with our own hands and learn to love them without looking over our shoulders in the dark, never ever would the world question our unison, never ever would sashaying into happiness be a mark against our names. They'll find us in a room stacked with fluorescent vases. They'll find us swilling dry martinis and laughing about how we used to see dust instead [00:39:30] of glitter. Oh, happy celestial bodies. Oh, dreamsome days of O's and X's. Kiss, kiss, boys. Kiss, kiss. Thank you. Amazing. That's why he's the new Poet Laureate. We have this great panel, it's a really incredible mix of emerging poets and writers. So I wanted to ask Chris, do you accept your [00:40:00] new place as an elder and that you're no longer emerging? I felt old for the last 10 years. So yeah, um, I think it's, it's, it's all about context though. Right? Like I definitely in, in I'll tell her I'm definitely not emerging and I accept that. Um, but it was interesting seeing an American website, um, promoting my most recent book and calling me an emerging poet. So, you know, I, I'm, I might just move countries and be [00:40:30] emerging elsewhere and just, just keep hopping around. Yeah. Um, Cadence, I saw you describe Chris as your poetry uncle, which I thought was just the loveliest, sweetest thing. Um, you said his mahi is one of the reasons you started writing poetry. Um, so do you want to talk a little bit about that? Yeah, um, yeah, I got introduced to Chris's poetry in year 10. Um, when, yeah, our teacher, like, showed it to [00:41:00] us and, yeah, I was, like, just really floored by it, honestly. Um, I'd written poetry before, but I'd kind of written what I thought a poem should be. So it was very You know old fashioned like rhyming like I think I did a few acrostic poems actually That was more primary school though. But um yeah, and so when I first read chris's poetry, I was just Like really amazed at what a poem could be and how much more free it could be um, yeah, I [00:41:30] first read how to be dead in a year of snakes and that just really Yeah, stood out to me like all these poems kind of like a story but also a moment at the same time. Um, yeah, and then since then I've just like kind of harassed Chris as a fangirl at various events and eventually, yeah, like he's published my work in the spin off and stuff like that and I, yeah, I feel really honoured to No, the NZ Poet Laureate. No, I'm well enough to call him my poetry uncle anyways. One of Cadence's high school [00:42:00] English teachers emailed me out of the blue and said, oh, I've got this student who's writing poetry and, you know, can I send you some of her stuff? I was like, yeah, sure. Okay, cool. That's a whole bloody manuscript. I was like, what? It's probably like one of just a few manuscripts that Cadence has written since then. I think it's like six or something at this point. And Cadence, you spoke at Chris's launch of Supermodel Minority, is that right? So [00:42:30] it's, I would love to know, do you feel like you're really supported by, um, you know, your queer elder poets? Do you feel like community, um, do you feel that sense of community and feel supported by the queer poets community? Yeah, definitely. It's been really cool, honestly, entering this community. Um, like so young, but Not having anyone kind of like belittle me or be like, kind of, what are you doing here? Little kid. Like that [00:43:00] was kind of old, but obviously I thought that, but no one told me that and I definitely wasn't getting that sense. Um, yeah, it's just been really cool, like reading poetry of people that I can, that I can like meet in real life and, you know, talk to and can like help me with my work and stuff like that. It's, yeah, really incredible. The community of sort of, um, queer writers. It's small in New Zealand, but it's a pretty mighty crew. What does [00:43:30] being part of that community mean to you, Oscar or Ruby? Do you want to? Um, I wasn't given a microphone presumably for strategic reasons, but I've got one now. Um, yeah, I, I dunno. I think, um. I, I don't really get out much, so for me, a lot of the community is just like reading, um, by myself, but, um, I don't know, I just think it's so nice to like, I think, um, [00:44:00] something, um, I read recently was just about like there's not like one way to be a queer or a trans writer anymore. Um, and not that there ever was, but there was, I feel like a sense of like, this is what a trans poem is, or this is what a queer poem is. And now it's like, all you need to do is pick up almost any collection and you see like 50 different ways to write in a recognizably queer or trans way. And so I think for me as a little bit of a hermit, that's, that's my sense of community. And I just [00:44:30] take enormous strength from that. Um, because as a writer, you just have to find. Your place and you've got a map now, which is, which is really cool. Yeah, Ruby. Do you feel that sense of community? How much of that is a part of your mahi? I don't know why I thought you're gonna ask me a different question. Oh, I can if you want. That's fine. I have more questions. Oh yeah, I can answer that question. Um, yeah, I, I kind of, I'm part of a lot of [00:45:00] different communities and I think there's a really interesting space when you're kind of In the middle of all of them in this kind of weird code switching thing that is always going on. But I've, I'm really lucky to have kind of almost grown up with, um, Poets and writers like, um, SMA Ranapiri and Michelle Rahurahu and Sinead Overby. And people like that who were also young and takatāpui and writers. So I feel like we kind of had this beautiful little [00:45:30] kind of powerhouse going of sharing work with each other and understanding what each other was going through in terms of dealing with those things, even in terms of being, you know, like living in the city, but being Māori and being from, from other places and how you deal with all those things. Um, yeah, so that part of the community was a big deal for me. And I think, um, I've had lots of experiences where as soon as people have found out that I'm, That I'm queer, not that I'm hiding it exceptionally well. But um, as soon as people kind of find out, people are like, [00:46:00] Ah, and then you're, you're in the fold more. And always, I've always found those experiences interesting. And looking back as well and seeing experiences where I was held that way before I realized I was queer and what those experiences look like from writers and And people who engage with writing, yeah. Yeah, because it kind of speaks to that idea of what is a queer poet. Is it just a queer person who writes poetry? Or does the poem have to be inherently [00:46:30] queer? So, when you, do you consider that when you're writing? Would you say, I'm a queer poet first? Or what does it even mean to be a queer poet? Um, these questions are really hard. Um, Um, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think, like, Just to speak for myself, I just write, like, I'm just like, oh, just write a poem about a bird, and then it's like, oh, there's my deepest fear, like, on the page, like, it just, it'll just come out, like, and so I [00:47:00] think my writing is just completely dictated by what's going on, and a lot of what's going on might be about gender or sexuality, and so that's gonna Be there. Um, but then I'm like really interested to come like, what if there's a time when it's not anymore because you kind of move through phases I think sometimes as a queer person where it's a real focus for you. And then maybe sometimes you move into a bit of a lull where you're kind of feeling a little more comfortable and then it's like, I wonder like what will be the, what will [00:47:30] be coming, coming out then. And is that still queer writing? Well, I think yes, because part of being a queer person is being someone who doesn't even think about it anymore because you're just bored of the whole thing. Um, but it's a different kind of writing. Um, And it's, I find it interesting how people, like, react to it, because I think people have certain expectations. Um, which can be, like, really positive as well, because they want, like, really good writing, or they want something that they feel reflected [00:48:00] in. Um, which is something I really just try not to think about, because otherwise it's like, well, it's all just gonna come out anyway, so I'm not gonna. Um, but yeah, it's kind of Interesting, all those different conversations that are happening about like expectations and um, yeah, things like that. We have this conversation a lot in kind of a Māori context in terms of like, if it's a Māori power, is it a Māori poem? And it's, and it's, and yes, it is. And it's kind of like, you can look at it in the same way here in terms of whakapapa, like [00:48:30] if it whakapapa is back to a queer person in my head, then it's a queer poem. It's pretty hard to sit down and write. And shut off part of who you are, but to shut off any of those, those parts, like for me, it's, I don't know, what are some other things that I occupy, it's going to be a short person part, but no, you know what I mean? It's going to be all those experiences are always going to come in there, even if it's deep, deep, deep down in the subtext. So yeah, and it's, it's a beautiful thing. [00:49:00] I think that you can write as far away from it as you want, and it's still tied to it. I think when I started writing, like I've talked about this, But about, you know, being very conscious about, I don't want to write about being Chinese. I don't want to have Chinese things and Chinese images in my work. And then when it sort of came to starting to write about being queer, I don't want to like be explicitly queer or obviously queer for various reasons. And I think for me, a lot of my development as a writer and [00:49:30] As it has been about learning to let go of that, that constraint that I put upon myself because no matter what I'm going to write, it's going to have that sort of Asian ness or that queerness in any way, regardless of how explicit that might be. And that has actually been the most freeing thing for me as a writer to be able to just do it and not worry too much about it and be self conscious about it. Yeah, I thought it was interesting how Aska said, like, Often writing a poem you write about what you didn't even [00:50:00] know you were thinking about almost like it kind of yeah I was talking to one of my poet friends about this. Like yeah, it's almost a way of kind of understanding yourself Um, and I think especially as a queer person, you know, there's so many facets to queerness especially, um, or if you know, like your various identities, you know, there's like kind of No way to fully pin down something. And I think you're always kind of figuring out something about yourself at any given point in your life. And I think, yeah, a poem is often like [00:50:30] secretly a way of kind of figuring out things for yourself or like your brain kind of mulling things over. Like, I know for me, I don't consciously write a poem. I just kind of will be out and about, and then it'll just kind of like pop up in my head. And I feel like. You know, I used to think that was like, wow, crazy quirky thing, but I think now it's just like, I've realised it's, you know, I've just been thinking about it the whole time and it's only turned itself into a poem then, but the thoughts have always been there. [00:51:00] Do you have an idea then of audience? So when you're writing, are you thinking a lot about what type of audience is reading? Are you writing for the audience or is it just this process of getting what's in your head out? Very much for me. I don't write. For an audience like that's kind of like a cool added bonus. I'm like wow people read this cool, you know um, yeah, like I guess to some extent when you're writing stuff like [00:51:30] sometimes you'll write it and be like Oh, this would be good for you know, this Magazine or stuff like that But at the end of the day, I am kind of just writing for myself and I think it's a really cool added bonus that People like it, hopefully. This has made me think I don't, realise I don't think about being queer at all. I just never think about it, and I realised that several months ago when I was, when we booked this, I was like, I'm able to do that, and then I was like, wait, what, I never think about this, oh no. But in terms of when I do writing and think [00:52:00] about audience, I listened to a, I think it was listening or reading a thing about, with Kahukutia about, she writes for a 14 year old, um, Maori girl growing up. We sure grew up in, on the lands of Ngāi Tūhoe. Um, and yeah, and she's Whakatāpui as well. And yeah, so I kind of think that I'm, and then I thought about who I write to, and I think I write to that person too, but my version of it, you know, is someone growing up on, a 14 year old queer Māori girl growing up [00:52:30] in Tuwharetoa lands, but being from somewhere else. So I'm kind of, I'm writing for that person, and I think that Yeah, that's definitely someone I'm writing to. But I'm also always thinking about who could read what I'm writing and what needs to be coded and what needs to be protected. Which is something that I think that, you know, minorities in general have to think about far more than, my brain went to say, normal people. Everybody else. And, you know, it's, it's something like I want [00:53:00] somebody to be able to read a poem through and not feel alienated if there's too much of things they don't understand. But I also want there to be things that they don't understand that they might not be able to Google, that they have to go to someone to ask for. But if they read through it and they don't understand that bit, it's still going to be okay. And I think often with kind of the queer parts of, of texts as well, that's often how I'll do it too, is kind of Think about what do people need to know, what can people get by digging a little bit further, and what information [00:53:30] needs to be protected so that it's just for people that it's intended for, if that makes sense. Yeah, I think for, um, for me that I've started to embrace not doing that over explaining thing, because The audience for me is someone with my experience, someone who comes from a similar cultural background and doesn't need to have everything explained and, um, spout [00:54:00] out for them. And I think that as a writer, that gives you so much more power and control over, over what you produce and it, but there is still this sort of like nuance and balance to it. And I still find myself flawed when people come up to me and tell me about how, you know. A certain poem has meant something to them when I was like, that was just me being stupid about Taylor Swift. But it's, you know, it's something about it has resonated and sometimes I do, I do quite selfishly and [00:54:30] like, I'm gonna write a sequence based on these PJ Harvey songs because when I was a teenager, that's what I That's what I would have wanted to read. Um, so there's, there's sort of like, I guess, different modes to how I approach it that yet sometimes there's this sort of like really fun, frivolous, silly stuff to me, but then there's the stuff like, right, this is, this is me putting out this particular point of view on this topical issue. And I'm hoping that it sort of resonates with someone. I think as well, it makes us really think about kind of audience size [00:55:00] and we. Yeah, I think we're really lucky in a way because we can write for whatever audience size we want. I've been thinking about this a lot recently with music and with taonga pūrō, which is what I do every single day because it's my PhD and it never goes away, but um, and I love it. It's awesome. But, but you know, we have instruments that were meant to be played to, you'd play to your lover, you'd play to one person and I think the most meaningful moments I've had with poetry is when I've written something for one person when they needed a poem or one per [00:55:30] or a family when they needed something and thinking about how we use poetry in those ways. And I've definitely seen, as I kind of grew up in the queer community where I had an uncle who used to on and off raise me, because everybody had a turn, and an auntie who on and off raised me, and both of them were queer. And I grew up going to the kind of heterosexuals unafraid of gays march with my parents and stuff like that. So, and the queer community would do that too. Someone would write something, and it would be for this specific person's [00:56:00] memorial, or be for this specific person to like have strength to do something. And that's something that I think is something real powerful that minorities do, and that queer people do. That resonates with me so much. I think that's so beautiful. I think, um, when I think about my writing, it comes out of a space of need that I see in my community. And I've been thinking a little bit around, um, whether for me being queer is [00:56:30] inherently political as is being a mother. And I just wonder about whether you think your poetry is. A kind of activism and, and of itself and particularly, Oscar, I'm interested in, um, the surgeon's brain feels like it's kind of setting the record, um, straight around misgendering of, um, Dr. Barry. And do you have thoughts on that, around whether that was a clear aim or where activism [00:57:00] sits with your writing and, and how important it is or isn't? Um, yeah, I mean, It's kind of, like, complicated because, uh, basically, Dr. James Barry is someone who, for a very long time, has been seen as a woman, uh, who took on a male persona, um, either to chase a lover down who no one has been able to identify, um, or because, um, They just really wanted to be a surgeon. Um, [00:57:30] and, um, it's, it's kind of tricky because like I don't actually know like how Dr. Barry identified. Um, and I think what I wanted to do with the book was kind of complicate the story rather than necessarily have an answer. But then you have to have a blurb and like, that the essay that I have on James Barry's gender, um, didn't fit. And so we went with transgender man. Um, but I think I'm okay with that because I think once you've read. The biographies and the articles and [00:58:00] the everything that are just written from such an ignorant perspective and not necessarily a malicious one But just a really really uneducated one I did feel quite comfortable being like, oh, well, you're all very confident Um, so I'll be confident as well about my feeling when I read about his life but it didn't feel like political to me. I mean, I think it is, like, it just inherently is, but, um, I guess I, I don't, just don't think that it felt, like, quite personal, um, and it felt like [00:58:30] a, a sort of a, a little bit of a reclamation of history, because there's just such a, like, just this void behind us as a trans community when it comes to history, and so much gets taken, um, and so it was just a, Trying to fill that in a little bit and really just like purely for myself rather than from a political perspective But then of course as soon as you get into the stuff, it's it's really political. So Yeah, sorry, it's a very rambling answer and not really to your question [00:59:00] I did want to I really like something Ruby said earlier and sorry again This is like not answering your question, but I'm about protecting things because that was another thing I think when you were like Writing about a real person and maybe even when you're writing about yourself, and I'm kind of thinking of everyone's work here But um just that thing of like, oh, this is like a real a real person and like with someone like James Barry a person Who the way they're being talked about is this very traumatic way in this way that really [00:59:30] focuses on the body And then how do you approach that? when you're interested in them from that perspective, but you don't want to be voyeuristic about it and you don't want to like Like Retraumatize. Um, and I hadn't thought about it in terms of protection and in terms of different audiences, but I think like subconsciously, that's what's been going on. So, um, thank you for those thoughts. I found them very helpful. Yeah, I could probably talk about the political thing. [01:00:00] Um, uh, yeah, as soon as I do anything, it's political and I never mean for it to happen. And I think as well, I think I could honestly write a poem and be like the cat walked across the road from my house. to his house and people will be like, it's about the queen, it's about colonialism. It's about, the cat represents the British empire and it's the cat, like every time I write anything, there's always this weird like comment that it must be about that even, even if it's about absolutely nothing to do with it and I've tested it so many times [01:00:30] just to be a little shit and every time it works out this way and it's always been like that ever since I was like. 14 and I'm old now, but I think it's because it's impossible in some bodies to not be political every time you exist. And I think that, you know, that's, there's, there's burden to that, but there's also, there's also like a power and that's a power that people sense is what, why they think it's political. And I think it's [01:01:00] also really powerful to argue that it's not political and it's just what it's like to exist in those spaces. Cause I don't think I, Sometimes they do, like I wrote a poem about Elizabeth Darter and it was pretty, I was pretty upset that day. But I mean, most of the time I'm not seeking to write something political. I'm writing my experience and people perceive that as being threatening or being political because it's showing up those things and it can be hard to see that. But, but yeah, I think, yeah, it's [01:01:30] inherently political, we've all, we've all got to do it, no matter what we do. I was interested in the idea that you described Tūkūpapa as a map of survival for Māori growing up outside of their papakaika. Um, if it is As political, um, just by who you are, do you feel like you also have this pressure that it has to contribute to social change in some way, or you feel pigeonholed to be [01:02:00] putting across that, or where does that come from for you? Yeah, I do feel a certain, it's not actually a sense of pigeonholing. In a way, it's more like I've made myself a nest, and now I have to make things in it. But I think that's actually, that's, that's really nice, because I think we all want to produce things that are going to be helpful to people like us. Even, you know, and there's lots of ways to be helpful. There's showing people beauty, that's helpful. There's, um, showing people people like them, that's helpful. There's [01:02:30] showing people that it's okay to be angry, and ways and outlets for that anger, and that's helpful. Humor is helpful. And I think that all those things. Kind of can be, can be ways that can be helpful and the Maps of Being thing, I think you said that as well, Oscar, about kind of showing people, you know, because when you read those books that become those maps, they really stick with you and they're really powerful. And like, I remember reading books by Honeymona Baker as well, like, and that were [01:03:00] really big kind of, oh, okay. Maybe I could actually be, do something with my life a little bit more. Maybe, maybe working at the server up the road isn't the biggest option for you. Maybe there might be something else. And, yeah, I think that those books are really precious, and we want to add to that and keep creating. Those things in a way, but what do you reckon? Yeah, that sounds about right. Nice. [01:03:30] Chris or Cadence? A lot of where Supermodel Monitoring came out of was being asked by audiences at festivals, how do you solve racism? Will we live in a world without racism? Um, like, I don't fucking know. So this, this Expectation that people of color, that queer people can somehow provide the answer [01:04:00] because they've experienced X. How do we stop X from happening? That was what wore me down quite a bit. Um, and that's where Suhoomara Minority came out of. And. I don't have the answers. The book is very clear that I can't provide the answers because who knows. And what is, what is, what is the thing that is actually going to cause that reset or that sort of, you know, starting again. Um, [01:04:30] so for, for me, you know, that that's, that's as far as I could get, I guess, with the politics of it, that I can't resolve it myself. And I have to just throw it out into the world for other people to contribute to. I, I've. When I first started writing, I never considered myself a political writer. And then you sort of have that moment where it's like, Oh, I am. And, and I've always been quite. Reluctant to lean [01:05:00] into that, that part of myself and that part of my writing. And it's, it's been a bit of a journey, um, to, to claim that and to own that a bit, and I'm still sort of wrestling with it quite a lot. And I think, you know, one of the next things I want to do is to put beauty into the world and I want to write about queer joy and POC joy. And I know that that in itself is going to be quite a political thing because it's going to be subverting and challenging these. [01:05:30] quote unquote traditional narratives that have been put out there about queer and POC people. So that for me is, is how I'm, the next step of how I'm going to question and challenge it. Yeah, I think it's, it's really interesting how you say when you started out, you didn't think of yourself as a political writer. Cause like, yeah, I was like that, but like to the extreme, I was like, I'm not writing about anything real. Like, you know, we're just going to write about nice things. And yeah, it was like a very delusional year 10. Like I remember going and seeing like a [01:06:00] play. About like feminism. It was really good. And then afterwards I was like, oh who needs that real stuff when you're a fantasy, you know I was so pretentious um, but yeah, like as I started writing more and more stuff that actually meant something to me and actually like spoke to me or kind of came out of a place of Kind of more genuine feeling rather than just like again what I thought a poem should be It just kind of becomes political and in a way that kind of sucks that you [01:06:30] know being a queer Asian person Means that you are political like in existence but yeah, like you said there is a real power in it and like Yeah, there's often, you know, kind of like the dark moments. I know my book has a lot of stuff about, like, being dissected and things like that. Um, just because I feel like you're under a lot of scrutiny constantly to kind of be this representative for your people, where it's like, I don't represent anyone, I'm just [01:07:00] out here existing. Um, yeah, and so There is definitely that sort of thing of like trying to, you know, be part of the community and be like the, the figurehead of it. But at the same time, you do just kind of want to write. What speaks to you? Um, and that in itself, I think, is kind of political in a different way, like, not writing for people to kind of, I guess, like, show them that you're, like, good and normal, but [01:07:30] to just write for yourself and to write about your own feelings and kind of process them. Thank you. Do appreciate these are hard questions. So I do really, um, appreciate this. Um, I want to talk about a pretty shitty thing next. So COVID, um, the thing no one wants to talk about. Um, I know that many of you, um, you know, we [01:08:00] were writing during the pandemic, releasing books during the pandemic. Um, I really want to. hear from you what, what that was like and how it impacted your writing or shaped your writing, whether it had any impact at all, um, and just kind of what it was like for you doing that mahi, um, in isolation or during the pandemic. Yeah, I'm the human equivalent of a house cat that's like a little bit wild and kind of just wants to be left on its own most of [01:08:30] the time. But like occasionally I need a bit of a scratch and like a bowl of water and a treat. So I was, it was the ideal environment for me because I've got a shed and I just kind of was in my shed doing work and occasionally someone would check on me and it was just perfect. Um, I was working on lots of different things and I really liked it, but also it was the kind of thing where. I felt like I was sitting in one of the, the flasher waka at that time, you know, like I had, I had a house with a spare room, I had all [01:09:00] the stuff going on, and then I had lots of people I know who were really struggling during their times, and it was, you know, it'd be like, they'd be like, right, right. No time to write. So yeah, that's kind of how it was for me of trying to support people from afar and, but yeah, I just kind of, I just went full only child introvert zone and just like bailed up in my shed with a big list of stuff to do. Just did that the whole time and it was great. Wow, not having kids sounds [01:09:30] awesome. I'll have some and then I'll just be like, I'm not gonna do anything now and I'll just release a backlog of stuff. So it was a really productive time for you then as well as managing that care of community? Definitely. I think the one thing I noticed about that time as someone who also like lives with mental illness is that it was just like way easier to manage all these things that are way harder to manage. When everything, many people are a lot less accommodating and kind and it was kind of [01:10:00] like that first one it was really good because people were just really understanding and it was just great and it was like all of these inequalities popped up but some of them just really got, got dealt with really quickly and really easily and yeah and it kind of, part of it made me a bit sad because I was like oh this is the best mental health I've ever had because people are being that little bit kinder. Um, there's a whole lot of, there's a lot less on, I don't have to worry about money. And yeah, it really made me think about the UBI and it made me think [01:10:30] about, I think it made everybody think about the UBI, hopefully mostly in positive ways. Um, yeah. And it made me kind of realize what support could really do when I wasn't worrying about all those things. I could make things because I wasn't worrying about not having the money to support me making things. And yeah, that was, that was great. And it was kind of, yeah, felt political to even notice it, but that was a big part of the experience for me. Yeah, such a shame Labor fucked it, when it was like a great way of showing that UBI works, [01:11:00] but not to be political at all. But, Ine, what about you, Kada, during that time? Yeah, I was in year 11, when it started. Fuck off, next person. 20 years ago. Okay, but honestly, NCA level one would have been really hard for you at that time, because that was been a hard year to do it. Yeah, I remember Like 8. 45, like Google meets, uh, with the history class and there was like two people, my friend, like I [01:11:30] had my birthday in lockdown, actually in the second lockdown, my 18th. Um, and yeah, my friend in English class, like played like a, like weird solo, like a happy birthday on his electric guitar. Um, but I actually do agree that. It was quite a productive time for me, uh, especially because it wasn't, school wasn't as regular, like you didn't have to show up to everything, uh, apart from the one history teacher who of course was the 845 class. But, um, yeah, so I ended up doing a lot of [01:12:00] writing actually and a lot of poems. I think I did write a manuscript, but I don't remember which one it was. This one. This one. Um, yeah, and of course there were like, Great publications like Stasis, um, who were, you know, like publishing stuff all throughout the lockdown. Um, yeah, I feel like I noticed quite a lot of poetry actually during the lockdowns. I think just because, you know, all the poets were trapped inside and just had time finally to [01:12:30] write the things they wanted to. So yeah, again, it was like quite a productive time for me. I also just like hanging out at home. So that's what I do normally. So it wasn't too much of a change. Um, so Emma Barnes and I. We're editing out here at the time and we had this timeline and then it got completely fucked by COVID in the first lockdown And we had enough to go with so we had a lot of submissions and we had books that we were going to read But because of the lockdown and because we couldn't [01:13:00] access libraries it Delay a lot because we couldn't access what we wanted to read. So in some way, the lockdown was good because it forced me to get on with the reading and get on with, um, editing and working with Emma on, on, on the anthology. In terms of my own writing, I thought going into it, great, I'm going to be at home. I'm going to be able to have all this time to write, but it was. It was just not the best environment for me to write. And in fact, I, you know, I, I spent most of it [01:13:30] just, you know, other than working on out here, just going for long walks and just thinking about, um, what I wanted to write about and trying to figure out why I couldn't write about it. And then once the first lockdown lifted. That's when the floodgates kind of opened and then boom, it all happened. So I don't know whether there was something subconsciously sort of like preventing me from writing because it was trying to force me to just think about it and then do the writing. Um, in the end, it kind of worked out, but I remember [01:14:00] at the time just feeling very frustrated about not being able to. What I wanted out onto the page Yeah, um, I had a really interesting time with the first lockdown because that's when I wrote uh the book about the surgeon's brain about james barry and um just uh, like for context so, um, he was mostly sort of Active, I suppose, in the early to mid 1800s, and this is kind of pre germ theory, so, so people think that disease is spread by, like, [01:14:30] miasma, like bad air, um, and, um, he was, uh, also a contemporary of Florence Nightingale, and a lot like Florence Nightingale, and almost no one else at the time, um, he thought handwashing was really important, and he would go, basically, from hospital to hospital, he would, he would be the general inspector of a hospital, and he would Basically say to everyone. Okay, everyone just wash your hands like please and he was really like angry all the time And so people were quite scared of him, even though he was like five foot two And so, [01:15:00] um, they would wash their hands and and the death rates would just plummet in that hospital And then he would go to the next hospital and there's a lot like florence leidinger They actually hate they did meet in the crime era and they hated each other um, but it was so interesting like I was reading all this stuff and like You know, just grappling with this person who was an absolute kind of neat freak, but he didn't know why what he was doing worked. And then at the same time, we were being just flooded with all this information. And we were like, putting out, I was living with my mum and all my siblings at [01:15:30] the time. And we were getting our groceries and we were putting them out in the sun because we were told that that would keep us safe. You know, and you're just like, wow, we, like, we haven't. Changed at all, you know, like we don't know what's going on and what could happen next. And so it was this really weird thing of like the art in the, and life just, um, converging in this way that probably wasn't very healthy for me, but, um, I think it improved the book. So it is fantastic. And. [01:16:00] So, am I right in thinking out here launched, um, you were unable to do the launch? We never had a launch. Yeah, and I feel like the launch is like the best part of writing a book. Emma and I had like, before we'd even finalized the manuscript, we had these plans to have this incredible event in Wellington. We were going to tour the country. It wasn't just going to be writers. It was going to be like musicians and drag performers and dancers, and it was going to be like an awesome party. And then. Nothing happened [01:16:30] and like, yeah, we would like. Really sad and we'd spent hundreds of dollars on outfits That we have all worn, but that's you know, but yeah, it did feel like An anti climax because you know, we'd put so much effort into putting the book together And you know We really wanted it to be an opportunity for the writers in the book and people who didn't make it into the book to be able to get out there and and and read and and be part of this sort of thing that we'd [01:17:00] created and You know the books Done really well, I think, you know, because of what it is, it's, it's, it's found its audience and it's, and it's continued to, um, to, to sell, you know, almost a year since this publication, but we, we, we did feel very disappointed that we couldn't do anything, you know, for the longest time, the only event that we. Had for the book was in Palmerston North, um, which is fine, but you know, it was like, oh, okay. [01:17:30] So my favorite New Zealand poetry out of everything. That is my favorite. It's like, where did this book have its sole reading? But we did have like an online event as part of same, same earlier this year, which was really great. And, uh, Emma and I both went down to word crush a couple of weeks ago. And that was like our first in person event together. And that was really lovely. And, um, it, it, it really reinforced, um, this. The magic that happens when you can bring [01:18:00] people together like this and celebrate a book or celebrate an anthology and celebrate the writers that are in it, because there's something special about doing it in person and having those connections. I, you know, I think after two years of online events, we're all tired of it and there's just something that isn't quite the same about it. And, you know, something that I've been thinking a lot about, um, not just in terms of writing, but like part of my day job is, is, you know, events as we knew them. are going to have to change, [01:18:30] you know, even tonight with, with having a live stream element. Um, and what does that look for? And what does that mean for festivals and, and art events like this? Yeah. Did any of you have events that then got cancelled due to COVID or did you have, because I mean, I feel like I lost. a third of my income overnight. I had constant cancelled gifts. Yeah, I had the same thing. I had this great moment where I was at one of my jobs and I was like, I've lost 500 this morning. [01:19:00] And my boss went, better get the good coffee then. And she went to get us a coffee. And by the time she'd come back, I'd lost another 1500. It was like, it was insane. But also it was cool. Cause after a while you're just like. Ah, yes. Okay, well. So you were able to, because I really felt like when I was trying to write and just constantly losing income and once that initial payment stopped, it was like, oh, you know, paying rent and all those. How did you, did you feel like you had to keep your [01:19:30] spirits up or are we just kind of used to being really badly paid? I did this really crazy thing, I shouldn't say that, but then I think about it and I'm like actually maybe it was crazy at the time, but I like, kind of, when I saw the stuff was happening overseas, I was like, if that comes here, we're going to be quite fucked, aren't we? I'm going to book a whole bunch of articles. That will pay me money because they'll all still keep going. So I did that and I booked like six over like a four week [01:20:00] period and then I just wrote all of those and got the money from it and it kind of came out okay, but I don't know why I did that or how I, well I know why, but it just seems very unlike me. Usually I panic and I just do something at the last minute, but really, yeah, that panic worked well. Yeah, I mean, I definitely had quite a few cancelled poetry events. Um, luckily for me, you know, since I was a high school student, um, income didn't matter too much yet. [01:20:30] Um, but yeah, I think I, you do just kind of miss out on the community. I feel like coming back to this sort of thing, it's kind of like, well, here's all these people that I've seen like on zoom or like on Twitter, um, who, you know, should have been there in real life. Um, yeah, so I think it's kind of like. Emerging out of a cave almost, like now that we can have live events, um, yeah, and just kind of getting used to it again. One of the defining moments of that first lockdown, so I think [01:21:00] everyone was panicking about losing events and, you know, this move to online and digital and virtual events. So I, I helped sort of organize, um, uh, an online reading for Pegasus. Um, and we. You know, this was, this was before people were really, like, used to using Zoom on a daily basis, and, and Rose Lu and I, you know, got a few people together and thought, all right, we're going to do this, you know, these are the readers, this is what we're going to do, and we did this online reading, and, like, [01:21:30] penises, like, just on screen, and all sorts of, like, Weird porn being shared and, and it was a really like good learning experience, but also terrifying. And I just thought, Oh my God, what is happening to the world? Like this is, is this what we've got to deal with now? But we learn a lot from that one. And then the second one, we were much more prepared and there were no penises. I have the recording if anyone wants it.[01:22:00] Did people just read on? Was it like there were dicks everywhere? But Sam was like, And then I saw, it just kept going. It's really unlikely that there will be any penises tonight. Um, Oscar, do you have anything to say about that? Um, not that precisely, but, um, on the, the cancellations, um, I had a great time with the launch of The Surgeon's Brain because I [01:22:30] think it was delayed like three times. Um, and then this was like, I think this was, yeah, like early, early last year. And then, um, no early this year, Oh God, I don't know what is time. Um, anyway, it was in the past. It happened in the past and, um, yeah, just keep getting delayed. And then we had a day and I was like, well, obviously I'll get COVID on that. Day or like, you know, everyone else will, and I'll just be reading alone. And, and there were all these rules as well. It was like, no food, no drink, masks on all the time, which like totally support that, but not [01:23:00] a fun time. Um, but I was like, okay, you know, just we'll get it done and it will be, it will be, it will be nice. Um, and then the day of, I was like, um, I was at work and it was like, oh, that, like that process that's happening. It's like. Kind of something's going down, um, and, oh, like, um, like the slide's on fire, maybe. And then I got an email from Unibooks being like, due to security reasons, we have cancelled your book launch tonight.[01:23:30] Um, so I can't blame, well, maybe, I don't know. It's complex, eh? Um, what caused that? But, um, Yeah, so I didn't, I didn't get a launch for the Surgeon's Brain, but um, I mean, just to like, bring it back around, um, to community, which we were talking about much earlier, Um, it's actually been really nice, because people, like, a lot of people in the audience and also on the stage, I think, have like, created so many events since then. And have like specifically said to me, I know you didn't get a launch, [01:24:00] so I thought maybe you could read it this, which is like, just really lovely that people think of that sort of thing, um, I actually don't, I, I find the idea of have book launches like quite scary because it's sort of like, you know, spotlight kind of thing, like those ones, um, but, um, you know, it is also like, Kind of a, it's like a, it's like the birthday party for your book, you know? So like, it does feel like you should mark it. Um, and I just feel like I don't miss the fact that I didn't have one at all, because like the community just [01:24:30] wrapped around me and a lot of other people and, um, just kind of made events for us, um, which has been really, really cool. Yeah, I love attention so I had three book launches. Um, I think as well that what I've seen that's been quite nice is accessibility around events now where there is this finally this kaupapa of like giving a shit about disabled people and immune compromised people and having masks wearing and [01:25:00] Um, having people, you know, thinking about others and how we can make our events more accessible. So I feel like maybe if there's one plus from COVID, it might be that. But, um, but I do want to talk about the theme of this year's Same Same is legacy and cadence. You've referenced a lot of writers in your work and Chris is our poet laureate, which is of course, um, legacy making in itself and out there. Um, [01:25:30] You know, as a queer anthology was, you know, a huge part of this legacy now is that book and how wonderful it is. Um, Toku Papa, um, is all about legacy from parent to child and belonging and home and Oscar, your book around revitalizing and retelling trans stories. So you should all have lots to say about legacy. I feel like I framed that well, right? Um, Basically you're all creating works [01:26:00] that speak to legacy, um, so I would like to know what the word means to you and whether you feel like you're creating a legacy and if so what it might be. Shall I go while people have a little thinky think? Okay, um, yeah, mine was real interesting with that legacy concept because obviously it was a book about my dad, um, Me and my dad are really close, but also like, I feel like we haven't talked in three months, but we're also really close, you know, those kind of people.[01:26:30] Um, and I think for him, he'd had a lot of experiences in his life where his mana wasn't acknowledged. And it was a really amazing opportunity to acknowledge his mana and acknowledge that and acknowledge our family and acknowledge all these things. And I think there's a real special relationship of like, you know, queer daughters. And their dads, I think that's a really special thing. And there's like all different kinds of relationships that queer people have. And yeah, like I have a really [01:27:00] special relationship with my dad. And with a lot of, of guys who are kind of, of kind of uncle figures in my life. And mentors. And yeah, I think that was something that was really important. within that book. And in terms of that legacy, that book really gave him his mana back and everyone kind of acknowledging him and acknowledging the work. And yeah, he really feels like he's the main character now. And it's awesome. Like he'll go into Whittles and I'll get a [01:27:30] blurry photo of him from my stepmom and it's beautiful. And, um, yeah, the whole process, even from doing the cover. During the cover, he, um, where the mataora that's on his face is, it's a painted on one. He doesn't have one in real life. And after that, he kept it on till we went, so we went and saw my nana, and then he wanted to keep wearing it. And he wore it for the rest of the day, he wore it to the pub, he wore it to his girlfriend's house, he wore it everywhere. And it was just [01:28:00] really cool to see him doing those things and having that picture even was like a huge mana enhancing thing. And I know that. You know, generation down. I'm from a family with lots of writers. Um, Arihia Latham is my cousin and Geri Te Kapa Coates is her dad. And apparently we're related to Kerri Helm. And every time I go down south and say our last name, people are like, oh, Kerri Helm. But I don't know how we're related to her, so I leave it. Um, but yeah, and there's a big thing of bringing those works. [01:28:30] home and having manuscripts, you know, like people talk about our whānau manuscript and it being a big deal. And yeah, so being able to create those has been a, a huge thing. I love legacy work and being able to, to write that down for people. I think the process of putting out here together for me personally was the excavation of queer legacy and understanding. What has come before, who has come before, and where, you know, a lot of [01:29:00] us, um, on stage here fit into that story. So that was quite an eye opening experience for me. I've always, I'd like, when I first started writing, I had this really cringy naff belief that my writing was going to be my legacy, um, which, you 20 something year old, you think, yeah, this is the thing I'm going to leave behind. And, and I, I still, I don't, I don't know whether that's still. how I feel, you know, in terms of my writing. But what is [01:29:30] important to me now is that I recognize that Chinese New Zealand narratives, queer Chinese New Zealand narratives have been practically invisible. And this is, and everything that I'm doing is, is just my way of trying to create the legacy. And it sometimes feels like a really lofty task or something that I'm not. Equipped to do, and I just need to talk myself into it [01:30:00] and, and, and own that part of, of, of who I am, because I just want to write poems and, you know, have fun with friends on stage and, and I don't want to think too much about it in terms of. This is my legacy because I don't know what my legacy is going to be because who knows if in 10, 20 years time, people are going to be reading my books or anything like that. You know, from what I gather, my legacy at the moment is a poem about playing cards against humanity with my mom. [01:30:30] Not the really great poems about being Chinese New Zealand. Um, no, I just, I just, but yeah, it's, it's, there's a thing like you, you don't know what your legacy is going to be because you're not going to be around to. To see it happen. So I'm just gonna just keep doing what I'm doing and try not to let that weigh too heavy on me. Um, I really, like, relate to a lot of that, um, about [01:31:00] creating legacy and, like, not feeling equal to it. Because, um, yeah, I think, like, that's what, This latest book I wrote was really trying to do was just feeling like, um, you know, quite alone in history and not seeing yourself in history. And then it's like, Oh, who's going to write this book? And then it's that sort of thing of like, Oh, I'm not necessarily the best person to do that. But like, if I don't like who is going to do that? Um, I guess I, I guess I [01:31:30] will. Um, and constantly feeling a little bit Overwhelmed by the enormity of that task, but then it's also, um, It's also really cool because then you kind of have a legacy that you didn't feel you had before. Um, and then hopefully maybe other people relate to it as well. But, um, that's, um, almost out of my hands really in a way. Um. Yeah, so that's sort of how I think about it. Anyway. Yeah, [01:32:00] Chris kind of stole what I was going to say. Yeah, it's definitely that thing of like, you don't know what your legacy will be. And I think a lot in my writing, especially in Anomalia, I kind of explore you know, these like dead poets and like kind of love letters and postcards and all these sort of like quite mundane things that people left behind. And I often think that those are quite like almost the most important thing about people's legacies. Like not the sort of things they [01:32:30] showed off to the world, but kind of the little more private parts of them that kind of showed more who they truly were. Um, and it's just like really interesting kind of, you know, like. getting an old book and like seeing that it has like an inscription from a lover and stuff like that is kind of almost like the best little legacy because you kind of leave it behind in lots of different little places. Um, and yeah, I feel like I really try and I love to like uncover that sort of thing in my writing. [01:33:00] Um, in terms of my own legacy, I have no idea what I want to leave behind or what I will leave behind. I know I said in Anomalia that I want to be remembered, but You know, I don't really mind what I'm remembered for. I mean, I say that and then like I'll probably be remembered for something really embarrassing. But yeah, I mean, as Chris said, you know, I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing and I'm not going to try and write to create a legacy or to write to try and be the [01:33:30] greatest or representative of anything. I'm just going to Right to what I want to and hopefully someone might remember it or might not. Lovely. Okay, we're going to have some questions from the audience and I'm going to come to you with a microphone. Um, or I'm not going to, am I? Or am I not? Oh, they're running away. Are we? Are we? Oh, we've got microphones. Wonderful. [01:34:00] Okay, so if you have a question, put your hand up over here. Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you for being brave and asking a question. Hello. I'm looking forward to a post Unity book launch with the whole combined group of you. Could you do a post book launch? Yes. Shall we? Oh, [01:34:30] you have a question. You're allowed to ask the question. Um, when we were all talking about kind of purpose and legacy and stuff, um, When you're doing those harder pieces of writing, cause I feel like we've all, some of us more than others, but we've all done those harder pieces of writing and or harder projects. What is it that you're picturing and what's driving you to keep going? And we talk about, um, I mean, we talk, we talk about queer joy as well. And is it thinking about those moments of queer joy that does it, or is it [01:35:00] thinking about the things that you want to change or combo of the two? Where does it lie? I think for me, this makes me think of these, there's one poem in the book, which addresses. Um, the, in the surgeon's brain that addresses, um, like the way that Dr. James Barry has been written about by other writers. And I felt that it was necessary to have that in there to provide context to the rest of the book. Um, but I found that the hardest poem to write because you're, and it's a found poem, so it's taking, taking language from different sources and, [01:35:30] and turning it into something else. Um, And yeah, and I really struggle because like the language is often horrible and you sort of think, well, is it actually necessary to put that in there, you know, like, and going back and forth and stuff. I think for me, I, I go back to this like, um, like 10 year old me, like before I learned social skills and, and stuff. And I was just real, I was like, I'm all about the truth. Like, I was like really intense about like, everything must be accurate and truthful and like all this kind of like, I don't know where I was getting it from. But, um, [01:36:00] kind of like went back to that and I was kind of like that little kid, like whatever was going on there, like, um, would need that poem and would need the full picture. Um, and so it wasn't, it wasn't really, it wasn't really a joyful thing exactly, but it was just this sort of like, I think for me and definitely not for everyone, but there's an element of like needing the nasty in there too. Um, and. I am quite driven by, I don't know, [01:36:30] accuracy? It's a weird thing for a poet to be driven by, but um, yeah. Interesting question, from the audience. Do you want to? I think the hardest poems I've ever had to write are the ones where it's like telling a stranger a secret. So the poems in Here's So Mask, which is, which are all about coming out. And talking about where I lost my virginity and how that they were the ones that were like, [01:37:00] Oh dear God, why am I doing this? And, you know, right before the launch for He's So Masked, um, I said to him, I was like, what the fuck have I done? Like, this is a big mistake. I, I'm glad that that's out there because it's, you know, the writing of, of He's So Masked and the writing of Supermodel Minority has been my way of. Untangling and excavating those moments in my life and figuring out what they mean to me.[01:37:30] And, you know, the fact that they are in these books in between two covers must mean something to me. And that's, that's, that's I think what drives me to push myself and to write about those hard moments. There are poems that will never see the light of day. Because they are definitely not for someone else to read. They are the things that are for me. Um, and, yeah, I will make sure that I burn those before I die. Yeah, um, I've [01:38:00] just completely lost what I was going to say as soon as I turned the mic on. But I'll get to it. Um, yeah, I think it's, um, yeah, it's interesting, like, talking about like queer joy and stuff because that's kind of initially what I was trying to do with Anomalia. Um, you know, it's like kind of high school romance, like summer fling sort of vibes. Um, but yeah, it's kind of, it's sad, but true that kind of, you can't really have that. You can't always have that uninhibited [01:38:30] joy, you know, otherwise we wouldn't. You know, kind of be living in a society in a way. Um, and obviously, you know, things do need to change, but I think there is definitely a power and kind of showing the contrast between the joy and then the things that kind of hold it back. Um, like for me, you know, a lot of the poems in Anomalia are about. you know, these two lovers who are like, you know, surgically divided and it's kind of, you're always under the magnifying glass. You're always being dissected in some way. Um, [01:39:00] kind of, you know, you can't have that joy without being observed and judged by others. Um, and yeah, I think it's, it can be quite powerful to, you know, really contrast that. You know, there is this joy and then look at all these things that hold it back. We need to kind of try and get rid of them as much as we can. Beautiful. Thank you. Anybody else in the audience yet? Continuing this like discussion on legacy. Um, I'm really [01:39:30] interested in how as queer people, we very often like look to history and like archival knowledge for kind of case studies of. How to, like, live lives as queer people and how difficult that is because so often what we find is, like, so fragmentary and, like, has been erased. Um, but I feel like as poets, that space can, like, give you, [01:40:00] can potentially leave you, like, space for, like, imaginative. Work and like, you know space for you to create and i'm just curious How any of you like work in that kind of space in your own work? I can give that one a go. Um Yeah, I mean It's, um, it was really the challenge for me for writing, um, the, the surgeon's brain, I guess, um, was that you have these points [01:40:30] of knowledge about this person's life, and then you just have these big gaps. Um, or you have these, like, ambiguities, like, one of the central mysteries of James Barry's life is that, um, he was accused of having, like, a homosexual love affair with, um, essentially the, the king of the, um, of the colony at the time of South Africa. Um, And this was this huge scandal, um, and was resolved with, um, basically that, that, um, ruler, uh, leaving, [01:41:00] um, and James Berry leaving shortly after, and then it all kind of being swept under the rug, and then you have this big question, if you're writing a book about this person, and this is one of the things that You know, we know the most about, but we actually don't even know if it's true. You kind of have to make that call like, um, and that's really, well, maybe you don't, but I felt like, um, it's very hard to write the book without making that call. Um, and. Like, in a way, that is nice, because I could find something tender there, [01:41:30] and, um, bring something to life that possibly never existed. But if it didn't exist for them, it would have existed for someone else, and that story's been lost. So, it felt truthful. In a way, to me, um, but in a way that, you know, when you read the, the more historical biographies, um, of course they have to deal with it differently, which is kind of like the power of poetry. Um, yeah, so I'm glad that I'm writing in a medium that doesn't require footnotes, although I do sometimes use footnotes, [01:42:00] but, um, not in the way that you'd think. Um, yeah. I've, I've got some recons on this one, but do you want to go first? You want me to go first? Okay, um, yeah, for the next, so my book that's coming out next year, I feel bad now because I've mentioned it twice and my family will be like, oh, that's bragging. Um, but anyway, so that book, the first part of it is, um, the history of Te Wai Pounamu from the beginning of the world when the world was sung into [01:42:30] being up until the settlement. Basically. But that part took me a year to write, and it's only about 11 poems. It's not overly long. Um, and kind of writing that historical stuff and wanting it right and looking at everybody's different perspective, because you've got, you've kind of really got, you've got five different iwi as well. It's not just Kaitahu, and you don't want to make You have all these aunties, you don't want to piss anyone off, and you're just a little girl and you're just trying to be nice to everyone, you know, it was really [01:43:00] challenging to come up with a version that suited everybody. But it could be done, I think. And the other part was that I've got people like, there's a character, Hinepounamu, um, and we have lots of different atua of, Pounamu. We've got Waitaiki and, and other atua as well. Um, and she, Hini Pounamu is chased across the world by Hini Hoaka, the sandstone woman. And to me, that's kind of a metaphor of, of an abusive relationship [01:43:30] is this. Hinehoaka shapes Hine Pounamu how she wants and grinds her down over time. Um, so was kind of looking at that as that kind of relationship and I'm quite scared because it could come out and there could be, there could be people around who are like, not my Hine Pounamu, not that you can't just make an atua in a gay, abusive, lesbian relationship because you feel like it. But then if you look at the whakapapa and if you look at the fact that you can [01:44:00] pick up a piece of pounamu and a piece of sandstone and if you rub them together, that's what's going to happen. Like it's also physically there and you can say this is what I can draw from that. So yeah, I think it's those things of having levels and being able to look at it as physically elemental and also being able to look at it as a storyline and being able to look at it through everyone's different perspectives was really helpful for that. And I think, you know, poetry is so powerful in the way that You can be as specific or as far away as you [01:44:30] want and kind of thinking about that camera lens and how far you're zoomed in. Like there's bits that it's right zoomed in where you can just see, you know, something slicing at something else. And there's it's so far zoomed out that you just know that those two things are there and there's right in the middle where it's two people. And yeah, just playing around with that a lot, I think. Yeah, I feel like I kind of, in a way, insert myself into histories that aren't mine. Um, I'm like a big fan of, you know, like all the dead [01:45:00] poets and kind of that old aesthetic, like the sort of, you know, Victorian splendor, you know, being a Byronic poet, weeping over mushrooms, you know, that sort of thing. Um, yeah. And I think I always just kind of thought that I just liked the aesthetic and, you know, to some degree that is true. Um, but I think at the same time, I often like inserting myself into these histories because I kind of wouldn't have belonged there, you know, you never see kind of queer [01:45:30] people in that era, you know, it was very repressed. There were those like strict moral laws. Um, and you know, these poets, like they were often like punished for being homosexual, like Oscar Wilde, who I mentioned quite a lot, literally got sent to prison for gross indecency. Um, so I think kind of reinserting yourself back into that aesthetic and kind of. You know, putting yourself next to all these old poets, like, not in a self centered way but more in a way of kind of, like, kindredship and kind of being [01:46:00] like, yeah, I would have also been kind of oppressed in this era, um, and now I can kind of take these ideals for my own in this one. Thank you. Um, and just like that, we are out of time. I know there were other questions, but our poets will be hanging out, so you can, um, chat to them. And I just want to again say, um, support their mahi. Go and buy their incredible books. Tōku pāpā. [01:46:30] Anomalia. Did I get it? Yes. Yeah, Emily. Okay, The Surgeon's Brain and Supermodel Minority. Um, so please support those incredible books. I think that I'm going to hand over here. Um, thank you so much for being with us. And, um, we're going to have some more thank yous, I think. Um, thank you so much. A round of applause for our wonderful poet.[01:47:00] And also a huge round of applause. for our chairperson who also has a book out, Need to Adopt Supervision. Um, uh, it's such a privilege. To be able to listen and cry and laugh and, um, you're all so wonderful and beautiful and thank you so much. I just want to close with a karakia and thank you all for coming out on a Friday night on this long weekend of celebrating mourning.[01:47:30] I'm not sure what, whatever you're doing to acknowledge the long weekend. Uh, Inuhia, Inuhia, Inuhia ki te uru tapu nui. Kia watea, Kia mama, Kia nākau, Te tina, Tīnana te wairua i te ara takata. Koia rā e rongo, whakakairia ake ki runga ki [01:48:00] a tīna, hui e, tāiki e.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093079
TITLE: Out of the Ashes
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ben Black; Chris Szekely; Elizabeth Kerekere; Gavin Young; Kevin Haunui; Richard Tankersley; Sage Garrett; Sandy Gauntlett; Will Hansen
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 2020s; Ben Black; Chris Szekely; Dorian Society; Gavin Young; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); National Gay Rights Coalition; Rainbow Youth; Rainbow Youth (Tauranga); Richard Tankersley; Sage Garrett; Sandy Gauntlett; Tīwhanawhana; Will Hansen; archives; celebration; community archive; equality; gay liberation movement; intergenerational; remembrance; takatāpui
DATE: 15 September 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: Taiwhanga Kauhau (National Library), 70 Molesworth Street, Thorndon, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the event to mark four major queer anniversaries: 30 years since the formation of the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand Te Pūranga Takatāpui o Aotearoa (LAGANZ) in 1992, the formation of the Dorian Society (1962), the beginnings of Gay Liberation in New Zealand (1972) and the launch of the third volume of the zine The Archive is Alive. This recording was sourced via the livestream. Unfortunately the waiata were not captured well by the microphones and so have not been included. Other parts of the event have also been edited. A special thank you to the participants and organisers for allowing this event to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: December 2023
TEXT: Kia ora tātou. Welcome, everyone. My name's Kevin Haunui. I'm the chair of LAGANZ, and it's a real pleasure to have you here tonight. So my role, one of my roles will be as an emcee, and there will be [00:03:00] another emcee joining me as well throughout the evening, and Will over there, Will Hanson, will be, uh, uh, doing some, some work as well. But out of the ashes, celebrating queer histories. You know, it's a celebration of what we have achieved. And it's also time to consider all that we have yet to achieve. There's a whole lot going on, um, tonight. You will know that there's a line up of speakers, as you can see. And we thank [00:03:30] Te Whanau Whanau for opening our hui, um, tonight. And we also thank our speakers who have, uh, generously come along this evening. And we thank the National Library, in particular, um, the, uh, engagement. Team and the Alexandra Turnbull library, uh, for the support and the, uh, in helping this event, um, to be here to happen. So, welcome. So it is a time of celebration. So, [00:04:00] you know, who would've thought that, uh, out of the ashes, an event that happened in the. And the gay archives, um, in 1985, would have, uh, come to this type of event. So, the, um, the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand, Te Pūranga was born as a trust in 1992. [00:04:30] And so, this celebration is about marking four queer anniversaries in Aotearoa, to celebrate all that we have achieved in the last 30 years. to celebrate, um, gay, uh, the gay revolution, I'll just put it that way, to celebrate also one of the historical, um, communities in Wellington, the Dorian Society. And we have speakers here tonight to, to [00:05:00] speak to those issues. And we're also going to celebrate a zine that, uh, is being launched as well. So, We have up next is our first lineup of speakers, and I'll just introduce them, uh, in terms of their, their bios. I may not read all the bios speakers, but, um, just, uh, just to let people know the order of things. So Elizabeth Kerekere, Dr. Elizabeth Kerekere, MP [00:05:30] Dr. Elizabeth Kerekere, is going to speak about the importance of celebrating and preserving Takatākui histories. Elizabeth is of whānau a kai, Ngāti Oneone, Te Aitanga a Māhaki, Munguwhakāta, Ngāi Tamanuhiri, identifies as she and her, was born in Gisborne, where she lives with her wife, Olufa Aiono, the dog, Indiana, and cat. Havana and Chicago. So for those of us that know Elizabeth, [00:06:00] Elizabeth has been focused on community issues for the last 40 years. So it really is a, a pleasure, um, to have Elizabeth here tonight following Elizabeth. We have, uh, Linda Evans. Linda is a, um, curator, uh, uh, of um. of Lagans, Te Pūranga Tikataapui o Aotearoa, and has been working with the Lagans curatorial group since the 1990s. Linda's involved in women's liberation feminist and lesbian [00:06:30] feminist groups since the 70s, and she was part of the campaign for homosexual law reform in the 1970s and 80s. A long time presenter for the Wellington Lesbian Radio Programme from 1984 to 1987. So, and Hauora Sturgeon. An oral history curator for the Alexandra Turnbull Library as well. So Linda is going to speak about the history of Lagan's and 30th and 45th anniversaries and some of the challenges also [00:07:00] that Lagan's faces. Following Linda. Uh, Chris Sirkelly, Chris, uh, Ngapuhi, Ngati Roanui, is the Chief Librarian of the Alexandra Turnbull Library, and has been since 2007, and he's going to talk about the importance of the relationship with the Turnbull Library. Um, He's an author, his work's published in Te Reo Māori and English, and his latest book is Te Kūpenga, [00:07:30] 101 Stories of Aotearoa from Turnbull. That's been co edited with Michael Keith and published by Massey University. And I'm sure Chris will also just highlight The future of the Turnbull as well as an institution. Um, following those three speakers, Will will get up to introduce the next lot of things. I thought, um, tonight that, uh, hopefully it's not too evident, but I did, I was in a [00:08:00] bit of a mad rush, so if there's blood splatter all over the place, I'm sorry about my, about my, um, shaving inabilities, uh, these days. Nō reira, it is really, um, good to have you here. Please give it up for the speakers when they are speaking. Unfortunately, there won't be a time to engage with the speakers in terms of questions during the session, but after all of the speakers have spoken and we go out into the lobby, you may want to [00:08:30] engage with them there. Elizabeth. Kia ora koutou katoa. I tautoko ana ngā mihi kua mihi a ki ngā tanga whenua o tēnei rohe. Tēnā rā koutou katoa. Mihi mai, mihi mai ki a koutou kua tāi mai nei ki tēnei pō. Nau mai, haro mai. So wonderful to see you all here. I always say when I look into a crowd like this, it doesn't matter what. rainbow [00:09:00] event it is. I know that some of the people I love the most in this world are in this audience. So kia ora to all of you who are close to us and have been doing this work for a long, long time. I want to talk about kupu. You will know that this is Te Yesterday we celebrated 50 years of the anniversary of the Te Reo Māori petition being presented to Parliament. And so, absolutely.[00:09:30] And inspired always, as I am, all these years of work, over half of that, I've worked with Kevin, uh, and being able to be part of Te Whanau Whanau and, uh, the tautoko and the strength that our whānau bring to all of our events is something I'll never, never stop being proud of. But the waiata we did today, uh, the first waiata was written to welcome, uh, Te Māori. when it came back to these shores, so hoki, hoki [00:10:00] mai, come back to us. And I think about a word like whakatapui is something that our ancestors gave us and it's reinforced in the second song they said whakarongo mai, listen to the words that we say, speak the words that you know. And when you speak them, they're not just words, individual little things. They have stories behind them. They have lives behind them. So when we take a word like takatāpui, that meant intimate companion of the [00:10:30] same sex as it was in the tiny, if you see the little dictionary, the original Māori dictionaries, they use the most commonly spoken words. at that time in te reo and put it in, takatapui was in there. And so we know that it was a normal part of life and many other ways we know that. But when we take a word like that and we bring it to today and we use it to embrace all of our whānau who are Māori with our diverse genders, sexualities and our sex [00:11:00] characteristics, and that includes however, however you want to identify yourself. And we remember. All of the parts of who we are have always existed, and a word like this connects us to them. It's our whakapapa, it's our strength, but it also connects us to saying, if Whakatāpui was a normal part of life and accepted, we could assume that when any of our whānau from across the world came to this country, they're welcome and they're a normal part of our lives.[00:11:30] And it is on that basis, that's what gives us the mana, that's what gives us the power to say, This is the acceptance of who we are, the normality of who we are, the absolute incredible fabulousness of who we are, is actually built into this land. And every time we have a Hui like this, we reclaim that space. We keep making the space bigger. We keep inviting more people into it and more people feel comfortable until the state where more people are surprised [00:12:00] it's not there. This is our land. We are all welcome here, we're all part of it. And just the final thing about collecting our stories, te whanawhana. We're here to tell our stories, build our communities and leave a legacy. This is what Leggins is about, holding that legacy safely for all of us. So recording events like this, making sure we know they happen, the physical things we [00:12:30] create and making sure that all the things we do online are still captured. So the record of them a hundred years from now. There'll be decisions, things that happen this week in our lives at these events. A hundred years from now, one of our ancestors, one of our descendants is going to be looking at that and say, that was my nanny, that was my uncle. That was my non binary whanau that were there doing that thing. And as I close, I want to acknowledge Chris, when you come up to [00:13:00] speak later, I was going through a lot of my old papers. And I found the, uh, Indigenous Librarians Forum, the first, I believe, of its kind in the world. And Chris was one of the people who organized that. I still have all the papers. I was at that hui. And we cannot underestimate how important it is when we stand up, and no matter that no one else has done it before, no matter that some people say you shouldn't do it, That [00:13:30] people stand up and do it anyway. I always say find your mates, get the people around you, and do it anyway. Go for it. And um, just nō reira, thank you all for being here tonight. Whakapapui is one word, there are many others. Whakawahine, tangata ira tāne, uh, there are many many more words we want to find from our past and we will create and develop them so that they're real for us now. Uh, and this is the place that holds the journey. [00:14:00] of that discovery, the journey of who we are and what we form together. Kia ora. Kia ora koutou. Um, as Kevin said, my name's Linda Evans and I'm part of the curatorial team of Laggans. Um, I'm going to talk a little bit about our early history, a few glimpses of our collections along the way, and then a little about the challenges we face in the future. [00:14:30] Some of them already referred to by Elizabeth. So, um, Laggans, Te Pūranga Takatāpui o Aotearoa, was born out of the National Gay Rights Coalition. So it has an activist birth and continues with many activist collections, and at times in its history has been, um, very much a part of the activism. It, um, the National Gay Rights Coalition, which, um, [00:15:00] was formed around 1976, had, um, was one of the few organizations to, um, really seriously try to create a national organization. And it was very committed to the idea of resources and the sharing of resources and, um, archives. And one of its, um, uh, uh, members set up Um, what became, um, the Lesbian and Gay Rights Resource Centre. Um, but it started out being the [00:15:30] NGRC's own, um, resources and papers. Uh, but then, um, collections of other organisations papers were added to that. The reason that I've put, um, Glenda Gale here, which some of you, who some of you may know, um, Is that, um, the organization was able to get, um, two PEP workers, which is kind of a feature of a time of high unemployment, it was a project employment, um, [00:16:00] workers, and you could group community groups could get people to come and work on particular projects and Glenda organized um, those first filing cabinets full of material and I remember visiting her in um, the NGRC room in number six, Bulcott Street, which was a building of many activists, many activist groups, um, the Women's Centre, um, the Gay Community Centre, Hekate Women's Health Centre, the Lesbian Centre, Amnesty International, a lot of, many, many groups had [00:16:30] rooms and premises there. Once, the thing about the archive also is that it's always had attention from librarians, and it's had a lot of voluntary time and effort put in. by people who've had some professional training, as well as a lot of volunteers. So, um, this is, uh, the second, um, organizer [00:17:00] of the archives, Chris Masters. He was the librarian of the fire service. And, um, and so he organized the room. There was a room in the basement that, um, where they expanded into. And, uh, he was also, and became at that time a collective. Um, and he was particularly keen on providing, um. Services to, um, other people and groups. Now this is, um, a little, this is when it moved upstairs to its own premises, in the, on the second floor of 6 [00:17:30] Bulcott Street. Um, and Paul Smith, who's over on the far side, he was the one who, who did first set up the collection. Um, then there's Bill Parkinson, who became the, um, curator after, uh, Chris Masters. And then you might recognize. Or you might not, Roger Swanson, who was working at that time and he's worked on, uh, with the archives all the way through. So, um, that's when they just moved into the new room and were setting it [00:18:00] up. And this is, uh, one corner of it once it was set up. So, now Unfortunately, it, um, did really well all during law reform, did really well at the, um, at the beginning of the HIV AIDS epidemic, um, produced a lot of resources and supported, um, activities, supported lobbying, you know, was really, really, um, an incredible resource [00:18:30] for many communities. But just after the Homosexual Law Reform Bill had passed in July 86 and came into force in August 86, there, 11 September, there was an arson attack. And this is Phil Parkinson a day or so afterwards when he was allowed to go in to have a look at what had happened. So this is the event that Out of the Ashes refers to. And this graffiti makes it clear it wasn't a random attack. Um, it was a building with a lot of people coming in [00:19:00] and out of, so you might have said, oh, could have just happened, but it was really clear it was who it was targeted at. So, um, Phil worked at the Turnbull Library at the time, and many of his colleagues helped with, um, the salvage. of the collections, um, was quite good. A lot of material was singed, some material was actually destroyed, but, um, a lot could be salvaged. And then, um, and the Turnbull Library [00:19:30] offered, um, a floor, part of a floor at one of its, the buildings that then occupied, because, um, It wasn't at that point in this building, and it was called the Ford Building, and then an arrangement was made between the group, the Lesbian and Gay Rights Community Centre, as it was still called, Resource Centre, as it was still called, and the Turnbull Library. And then you can see, in 1988, the name, you can see the first time the name, [00:20:00] the Lesbian, um, and Gay Archives of New Zealand is in there. And the first two curators, Sarah Knox and Phil Parkinson, are there as well. So, um, after that time, um, as, um, Kevin referred to, there was a further Um, trust document created in 1992, there have been various agreements between the trust and the library, but it's, the archive has had secure, um, and safe housing [00:20:30] here, um, in the, in this building, as, um, part of the, in the same conditions the Turnbull Libraries, the collections have, uh, and it's also, um, had the opportunity to provide services for, um, all the hours that the libraries open. This, um, was the definition, um, this is kind of referring back to some of the things already raised by Elizabeth, um, in the Laggans, the last revision of the constitution in 2009. Kind of looks simple, [00:21:00] um, straightforward, but not really, because we all know how many different communities we're part of, um, how many conflicts. There are, um, how the, um, intersections of race, class, ability, sex, gender, cut across these. So, anyway, um, the aim is really that, that, um, LAGAN serves a network. of communities and [00:21:30] alliances who want to be part of, um, uh, having material looked after in leg ins and want to take part in that. Um, but we don't, um, deny the complexity. And in fact, we welcome it because it's not simple. And there's so many issues in all of our lives. Um, as well as, um, you know, all the things that have gone well, all the fun, all the friendship, lovers, ex lovers, all of those parts of our culture that we represent, that we do also want to represent all the difficulties.[00:22:00] And this was, um, this is some of the objectives that have been there for a long time, um, so it's like, uh, so it's a repository for both the, people, individuals and organizations and also to make the material widely available for research, for activism, um, for creative work. Now, um, I've kind of lost track of the time. Who is the timekeeper? So I'm the timekeeper and thank you. Have I [00:22:30] finished? Have I? Yeah, so okay. The further glimpses of the collections, we'll have to just wait for another event, I'm sorry. But I, um, will just give a little outline of what we're embarking on now. Because Um, that's kind of, it's quite an exciting time and we're hoping to commission a digital archive platform within about three or five years, which is a really large undertaking, [00:23:00] but it does mean we'll be able to deal with, um, material that's created in digital form, which is contemporary kind of collecting and digitize some of the, um, analog material from the past. We definitely need the support of experts and volunteers. And we also, of course, will need quite a lot of money. So we need the support of funders and of donors who might like to even give us some money because the operating costs will be more than our current operating costs. [00:23:30] Our short term priorities are to develop our metadata and information describing the collections, and this is They're really well advanced with um, the catalog cards having been transferred into digital form and a really fantastic international exercise of a transcribe a thon where hours and hours and hours of voluntary work went into checking and correcting those digitized cards. It's just a fantastic start. Um, then also, The next step is to [00:24:00] develop processes to collect and store digital materials. So this is digitally created material. And then the last one is to, um, update, um, the website and offer an online catalog. So we want to acknowledge all the volunteers that have helped so far. And the Rainbow Wellington, the Rainbow Wellbeing, sorry, legacy fund, which has contributed towards the beginning of this project. We really welcome all contributions, so please get in touch. And [00:24:30] equally, please get in touch if there's material you want to offer the library, the archive, sorry, or you want to, um, you know, take part in any of the, any of its work, or you want to research using its collections. Thank you. In 1985 my auntie answered a knock on the door. It was a Salvation Army person seeking [00:25:00] signatures for a petition opposing the decriminalization of homosexuality. Of course she signed and when she realized I had overheard the whole exchange she explained. A little sheepishly that she didn't really mind it, she just didn't want it to spread any further. It meaning the spread of [00:25:30] homosexuality. This was a time when a new disease called AIDS was entering public consciousness. Indeed in some social circles the joke of the day was. What does gay stand for? G A Y. Got AIDS yet. As a young man, not long [00:26:00] past teenage, and of undeclared sexuality, the Salvation Army exchange with my aunt was hard to listen to. And the inference that homosexuality was essentially a disease. was just plain horrible. Many gay men of certain generations will have their own recollections of that time. [00:26:30] That is why it is truly a marvellous thing that Legans exists and emerged literally from the ashes. Following the 1986 arson attack, just a year after that petition, I think it important that we remember that that attack took place in a social [00:27:00] milieu of disgust and fear. My auntie was one of 800, 000 New Zealanders that allegedly signed that petition. I say allegedly as there is considerable doubt. over the veracity of that figure. My name is Chris CK and I stand before you this evening [00:27:30] as a chief librarian of the Alexander Turnbull Library. I'm here to acknowledge the role that the library played in offering the archive safe harbour in 1988, some two years after that arson attack. I need to give a shout out to my predecessors, Jim Trowie and Margaret Calder. The chief librarians before me that [00:28:00] recognized the social value of what was to become legands and oversaw the establishment of an enduring relationship. I'm pleased to continue that commitment and have no reason to doubt that the library's Commitment will wave into the future. It is a wonderful thing that future generations have the [00:28:30] opportunity to read and understand the first hand realities of being gay in New Zealand at certain times. in our history. Let's also acknowledge that we're not just talking about tales of yesteryear. Let's remember that it was only this year that conversion therapy, a practice to stop the [00:29:00] spread of homosexuality, was made illegal. L G B T T F I Q are a bunch of letters that speak to the diversity within the Laghans Archive. I think there is another letter that speaks to Laghans. The letter R. [00:29:30] R for resilience. To the Lagans trustees, both past and present, your resilience is unquestionable. R is also for respect. You undoubtedly deserve respect for what you have achieved. And we, as New Zealanders, Oh, you a tremendous vote of [00:30:00] thanks. Thank you and congratulations. on your anniversary. Kia ora. Kia ora everyone. Um, thank you Chris. That was, that was really awesome to hear. Um, uh, thank you so much for having me here, [00:30:30] um, and Ruben for organizing all of this. Um, my name is Will. I've been a trustee of LegAMS since 2017 and it's been an absolute privilege to be a part of this organization. Um, before I jump into what I was going to say, I just wanted to Um, give a shout out to the Counting Ourselves survey. As a young trans person, uh, you know, I feel it's my duty to remind all of my fellow transgender diverse people to please fill out the survey. Um, having community data means that we can better advocate for ourselves and make [00:31:00] systems work for us. So, uh, please head to countingourselves. nz after this. Talk. Um, cool. So, uh, because I was assigned nerd at birth, um, one of the first things I remember doing when I realized that I was a lesbian at the time, uh, was Google Lesbian History New Zealand. And one of the first things that came up was leggings. I learned that Wellington was where our history was held, and it was then that I knew that I [00:31:30] really wanted to come and visit. It still took me a few years after that, after moving down, that I finally managed to come down to the National Library, and it was Roger Swanson who welcomed me with open arms into this wonderful archival world, and I'll never forget him for it. Since then, I've had so many amazing opportunities to connect with our past and with those who've lived it. Being able to interview older generations about their histories has been the most incredible and rewarding experience of my life. Uh, so many people have given so [00:32:00] generously to me, I hardly know what to think of it. So many of them in this room, Sandy, Marnie, Deanne, Chanel, Rene, Gavin, Roger, Donald, uh, there's too many of you to name. Um, yeah. It's, I just, I turn into a bumbling mess when I think about it and that's why I always say too many thank yous and sorrys and get told off for it. Um, because I just don't know the adequate way to express everything that it means to me. [00:32:30] Um, offering me, you know, your time, your foods, your knowledge, uh, your transport, your stories, retelling stories that are often painful and vulnerable. I'm aware that my experiences in getting to be a part of LAGANZ and getting to talk to, um, a lot of older queer people in the way that I have, is something that not many people my age get to experience. Um, I don't know many of, uh, other people in my cohort who are able to connect with, um, queer people older than themselves in the way that I've [00:33:00] been so lucky to have the opportunity to do. Being able to learn from generations past is vital to our community's well being. And yet, unlike so many other communities, we're of course not born into queer families most of the time, and we have to find that knowledge ourselves. Because, uh, back when I first joined Leg Ends, I didn't yet have a receding hairline. One of my roles as a trustee has been to reach out to the youth. I believe that Leg Ends has an important role to play in connecting us all [00:33:30] together. I know that there's a real desire amongst people my age and younger to learn about their community's past and to learn from and build relationships with those who've lived it. I know that it can be daunting for both sides. Sometimes it feels like we're speaking different languages. Um, but I know from experience and I'm sure many of you in this room do too, that there's little, that's more life affirming than finally meeting someone who was like yourself, but older you think. Well they've done it, they've managed to survive and to thrive and if they [00:34:00] can do it then I can do it too. Learning histories that our oppressors have desperately tried to destroy, the legacies of queer struggle and joy and defiance, meeting those who have worked so hard to make life better for those coming after them, gives us a sense of belonging, a sense of pride, and a sense of power. It is important to create opportunities for youth to learn about our histories and thereby to honor our histories and to honor those who paved the way. It was through having conversations about [00:34:30] all of this with my friends Caitlin Lynch and Liam Golter from Wellington Scene Fest that the Archive is Alive project was born. We named it this because history is speaking to us all the time. It is always evolving. And everyone, no matter their age, is a part of its tumbling spiral. The Archive is Alive is also a reflection of the fact that despite attempts to erase queer history, um, and legumes quite literally, we have emerged out of the ashes and this archive has continued to thrive. So in August 2020, we put [00:35:00] out a call for a small group of participants to engage in a free intensive two day workshop. Day one saw us come down to the National Library to discuss queer histories and spend some time hands on with the archives, which everyone said there was not nearly enough time to do because they loved it so much, which was awesome. And on day two, we all sat down together with photographs of the archival items and got creating to make the zines. The progress was incredibly rewarding, um, participants got really engaged and created some beautiful [00:35:30] and reflective pieces of art, um, and writing about what they, what queer histories meant to them and their time in Leggings, and I'm very grateful to every participant from all three of the Archivers Alive zines. Um, so yeah, we repeated the process again in March 2021, um, but for the second round we decided to focus specifically on trans histories, uh, as these are generally underrepresented in tellings of our queer past. Um, and then for our third zine, we wanted to acknowledge that most of our participants had been, uh, been in their twenties in the first two [00:36:00] rounds, so we decided to focus on bringing in high school aged youth to explore and create around the theme of queer youth histories. Rangatahi need to feel affirmed and supported by their older counterparts, and it's our duty to uplift queer youth in knowing that they are queer history in the making, that their life is important, and their archive is important. So with this kaupapa in mind, we teamed up with Compass Ramsey and the team at Inside Out, um, the fabulous team there, which, if you don't know, is a national charity focused on uplifting [00:36:30] our rainbow rangatahi, doing absolutely amazing work. Um, unfortunately, we kept getting delayed by COVID. Uh, so finally, we decided we didn't feel comfortable holding a big in person event. We hastily adapted to a scaled down mini online version lasting only an hour, held on Zoom during Inside Out's annual shift hui. Um, and despite being so short, it was still just a wonderful opportunity to connect with the online participants, and we received some beautiful submissions. Uh, thank you so much to everyone who participated in Archive is Alive Volume 3. Um, [00:37:00] I was too busy running around that I forgot to Bring one to hold, but, um, you can buy them out the front for 2. Um, I encourage you to do that. So I'm very proud now to welcome some of our participants from the Archive is Alive volume three on stage to speak about their zine pages. Uh, Nico, would you like to come up first? Thank you. No, I'm Nico. Uh, and I did the page, which is just after the staples. Um, and you may be able to recognize it. And [00:37:30] I wanted to focus on, um, the future of. The queer youth and how we can, if everyone works together, we can make sure that queer youth in the future have something to look forward to and a safe place that they can stay. Um, and yeah, we can work towards just making everyone feel safe and happy. Thank you so much, Nico. Uh, Sage, you about? Awesome. Thank you. [00:38:00] Uh, in my pages of the zine, I talk very briefly about capitalism and colonialism and how those link to compulsory monogamy. Although, of course, you could dedicate libraries to each of these topics individually. In submitting these pages, I had an underlying worry that I wouldn't be able Oh, that they wouldn't be included, or that I would receive negative comments, because polyamory is still a touchy subject, even within queer spaces. Almost as soon as I sent them in, it was super clear that this was [00:38:30] definitely not an issue, but it was, it really got me thinking about the progression of the acceptance of the various identities that we now refer to as queer. When I talk to my friends in whanau that have experienced queer community for a lot longer than I have, they talk about how when gay acceptance was becoming more present, and being bisexual was seen as going too far. Then after that, being trans was seen as going too far. There are still remnants of this internalised prejudice in our [00:39:00] communities, but I think that as time goes on, polyamory has begun to taking this place. We could see the sentiment of going too far when we were reaching the le Oh, sorry, I'm all shaky. Uh, when we were reaching the legalization of gay marriage, and people were arguing that if we let that happen, we would soon be arguing for people to be able to marry more than one person. At that time, a lot of queer response was that that was definitely false. But why shouldn't that be what we move on to? [00:39:30] Polyamory is not ridiculous. It should not be a channel for queerphobic hyperbole. It should not be a channel for slut shaming or sex negativity. Just as anything else that we now think of as queer. Non monogamy has been around for a very, very long time. In many countries, including Aotearoa, non monogamy only became stigmatized with colonization and the entrance of capitalism, making the acceptance of this identity and relationship style just another crucial step in our decolonial [00:40:00] anti capitalist mahi. I appreciate having the space to openly express my admittedly underdeveloped, young, queer, polyamorous, socialist ideas because the polyamorous part of this really doesn't get the opportunity to shine much yet. I have so much hope that one day it will. Tēnā koutou katoa. The next speaker is Gavin Young. [00:40:30] And Gavin's going to speak about the formation of the Dorian Society. He's been a gay activist in the 70s and 80s and was involved in Gay Liberation, the campaign for homosexual equality in Wellington as international secretary and then coordinator of the National Gay Rights Coalition. And then in the 1980s he was involved with the Pink Triangle White Publishing Collective. So he's played a part in organizing and participating in many of the campaigns and actions to change [00:41:00] our society in the place of our rainbow communities. Um, during that period, his career has been in trade development. We said there's a New Zealand trade commissioner and a number of countries. And he's now researching the history, the history of the lesbian and gay rights movement from 1960 to 1986 and plans to write a book to tell many long lost or never before told stories of the fight for what would become [00:41:30] LGBTQIA plus. Community rights Kilda? No, Mike given, so there's two things I'm gonna cover, um, because, um, it's a year of anniversary this year and there's two pivotal ones, uh, for the plus community, and that's formation of the Dorian Society, which is 60 years ago this year, uh, in 1962. And the formation of gay liberation, which is 50 years ago, uh, in 1972. Just to set the [00:42:00] scene, um, you'll appreciate that in the early 1960s, um, things were very different. Um, male homosexual acts were subject to punishment by terms of imprisonment, five years for so called indecent acts between men, and up to seven years for sodomy, which is, um, the term they use for fucking. Um, in, in those days, In those days, we were regarded as perverts by the police, uh, sick by [00:42:30] psychologists and doctors, sinful by the churches, and immoral by society generally. So, um, not a, not a great situation, but there were a number of, uh, oh, and, and there were a number of our community who were also married, um, in heterosexual marriages. So, But there was a number of people who, or were a number of people who, um, identified as camp, which was the term at the time. Um, and also, um, uh, trans people, uh, [00:43:00] and they generally had quite a good social life. So this is a more positive story that I want to tell rather than just the, the, um, the gloom and doom, um, that we could tell. Um, okay. So this is. Uh, the Royal Oak Hotel, and the Royal Oak, um, was one of the venues which was really key to the community. Um, there were bars where trans people went, there were bars where, um, lesbians and, uh, camp men, [00:43:30] um, congregated, and there were, um, other bars where, um, where people, uh, also, also went. Um, so this This is the Royal Oak. It's no longer there. Looking down Dixon Street, Cuba Street, it's the cross street, which is now Cuba Mall. And where the car is turning, of course, is where the Rainbow Crossing is now, if you can recognize that. Now, not far away from there, uh, in a little street called Herbert Street, which was just Up this way, uh, down Dixon Street, [00:44:00] um, was a, uh, coffeehouse called the Tata Tate, and, um, that was on the corner of Edward Street, which is still there, and Herbert Street, which is no longer. Um, there were other cafes and pubs, and I I don't know whether Sandy might mention those in her presentation shortly. The thing about that time, um, is the bars all closed at six o'clock. So what to do after six o'clock when you got chucked out? Um, and so lots of people went for, um, [00:44:30] a coffee at the Tate a Tate and they also served toasted sandwiches and, and hamburgers. Um, so that was, that was one of the places to go. So I don't know whether you recognize this. This is Manor Street. Um, and. Just here is a little One way street, and that's Herbert Street. It's no longer there, um, and just over about there is where McDonald's on Manor Street now is, and those, the rest of those buildings are all demolished, and there's a street through the middle of it now.[00:45:00] Um, this is what Herbert Street looked like in the 1920s, but it gives you an idea of it was just a narrow lane with footpaths on one side, and where the Tater Tate was, was up about here, um, but obviously not there in the 1920s, it didn't arrive until the 1960s. So during the weekends, um, uh, there were quite a few parties, um, and people, you know, private houses. And so people go to the Royal Oak and they find out where the parties were. And two of [00:45:30] the regular places, um, that had parties, and there were lots of other places as well, but two of the regular places were, um. Um, 29 North Terrace in, uh, Kelburn and 185 The Terrace. So this is, this is North Terrace. Um, it was, it was a property of several flats, um, and there were a number of, um, gay and lesbian people lived there. Um, Alison Laurie, um, the lesbian activist lived here at that time. [00:46:00] And this, um, photo is of Case Cooch, who also lived there at that time. Um, one of the things, um, that Case talks about, um, is that his, his flat was a bit like a railway station. And, um, so, you know, even when there weren't parties, there were always people coming and going and he, he sort of, he had the idea that, you know, maybe it was time we had a club and he wasn't the only one that had that idea. There were, there were other people thinking along the same lines. But he discussed it [00:46:30] with John Mackay and also Jim Goode, and Jim Goode was a waiter at the Tata Tate, and he'll come up in a minute. This is the other place, 185 Terrace, this house is still there by the way, um, and this is the back of it. So, it was in three floors, it was one of the grand old houses on the terrace at the time, um, when, in the day. At the time, there were, the top, there was the top. which was in two flats and the middle which was, uh, one flat and was that [00:47:00] middle flat which, um, Jim Good occupied with, um, uh, with Don McMillan, um, as his flatmate. And the, the three flats were sort of basically open plan, so they, they ran it pretty much as a house. Um, These are some of the residents in the front room of that house, um, so, uh, Robbie Prince, um, uh, Morrie, um, Kershaw, [00:47:30] the, this one is Jim Goode, uh, and Vayner Nansen, and this guy is a visitor, we're not sure who he is. So, Um, the idea was, was talked about for several weeks, and there were a number of people involved, including, um, Rick Ronsley and, and Don McMillan. And there were also a number of, um, people of Dutch origin, and they were aware of the COC in the Netherlands, which ran cafes and, and, and clubs and stuff for the camp, um, [00:48:00] community. So they thought it was a good idea as well. Anyway, long story short, um, most of the group was pretty young people and they thought they needed somebody a little bit more senior. So Brett Rawnsley, uh, happened to know a guy who was in the National Orchestra, played the cello, a guy called Claude Tanner. So he brought Claude along to a meeting, um, at Jim Goode's flat at 185 The Terrace. And, um, it was on [00:48:30] Sunday the 27th of May, 1962. 16 men attended. Um, there were two in this picture, Robbie and Jim Goode. Um, were at that meeting, uh, along with 14 others. And they decided to form what was New Zealand's first homosexual organisation. Um, full stop. Um, and it was Social Club for Camp or Homosexual Men in Wellington, um, when it started. This is, this is from Laggans [00:49:00] actually, it's one of the very historic documents in Laggans, and, and thank God it didn't get burnt in the fire. Um, it's the minutes of that first meeting. Um, at that meeting, Claude Tanner, um, the, Older guy that Brett brought along was elected president and Jim Goode vice president and Brett himself Um 19 year old Brett was elected secretary treasurer and he in fact wrote these minutes So and Brett is here tonight somewhere. Where are [00:49:30] you Brett? Oh over here Anyway, so if you want to talk to Brett, um, I think he's the only person that was at that meeting who's here tonight Although there are a number still alive and i've been talking to them as part of my research One of the things that, um, that the group did when they, when they got set up was, um, to get themselves, um, fairly well organised in terms of, um, a constitution, um, they registered as [00:50:00] an incorporated society, and they also got themselves premises, still within about two months, and those premises were in Cornhill Street, which is kind of still there, so, excuse the map, but, um, Um, just to put it, this is where the Royal Oak was, go along Dixon Street and there's the, uh, Tate a Tate and then just along on Manor Street, so basically, pretty much opposite where the McDonald's is today, was Cornhill Street, which was just a, basically a [00:50:30] service lane and, um, and there's a building on the corner and they accessed it from Cornhill Street. So it was a three story building and they had room, a room on the top floor. So this, this is the old Regent Theatre on, um, Manor Street. Just along this way is where the building was that housed the Dorian. Um, and we're not sure whether either this building or the next one was where it was, and it [00:51:00] was in that top room, um, where the, where the Dorian was. So basically everybody Um, in the club contributed what they could, so they contributed floor coverings and furniture and coffee maker and, um, and some members made interest free loans, which, which got paid back over time, uh, and one committee member, um, had access to a whole lot of, um, timber from car cases. Does anybody know what car cases were? You know, they were the, [00:51:30] when we had a, when we had a motor vehicle assembly industry, they were the cases where the completely knocked down cars came in and they were big. Big wooden cases. So there was a lot of wood left over once the car's, uh, parts were taken out. And, um, Jim Good, who was a pretty handy man, he offered to make a table for the club out of, um, out of that wood. You probably recognize this person, Johnny Crossgree, frequently dressed in drag. Um, and very, very, um, [00:52:00] uh, well dressed at that. Um, Johnny by profession was a window dresser and he was one of the best in town. So there was a lot of pretty grand shops and, and, um, department stores and he was in demand to, um, do their window displays. And his, his contribution, and thanks for the story, um, to, um, Brett Rawnsley, um, his contribution, um, or one of his contributions was to make a sort of a half a bar, half bars with [00:52:30] a, um, dried flower arrangements, which sat in the front window overlooking, uh, ministry. So he made a statement for the club. These are some of the early committee members, uh, of the club. Um, this is, uh, Claude Tanner, um, Case Cooch again, John Mackay, who was, uh, quite, uh, important during that period, including into Homosexual Law Reform Society. Um, uh, Michael Mahunga and, um, [00:53:00] Anish Law. And another, another group, so some of them are the same, but, um, this is a, a rear photo of, uh, Johnny Croskery, out of drag, um, and that is Don McMillan, um, Murray Eggers, uh, of course, Claude Tanner, and this person is, uh, Jack Goodwin and Jack Goodwin was the president in 1963 just for one year, but he also went on to become the secretary of [00:53:30] the Homosexual Law Reform Society for many years and was a really important person in the, in the fight for, um, change in attitudes and, and the law. Um, the club went on for 26 years, um, it, uh, wound up in 1988, uh, but it moved to various premises, it moved, um, in 1966 to, uh, Willow Street, and this is a picture from there, um, Argyle McLean, um, McCain might be familiar to some of you, and then in the 1970s it moved [00:54:00] to, um, Lampton Quay, which was kind of its heyday, and finally, uh, in the 1980s to the Willow Street Village. Okay, we'll move on to gay liberation in 1972. Now, it was instigated in Auckland by, you've probably known, uh, Nahuia Volkeling, now, um, Awi Kotuku, um, uh, over, it was really over an issue with the United States, um, consulate, and they [00:54:30] refused to give her a visa on the grounds that she was a deviant, and it was a, it was a rule that they had that, they could use to prevent, um, lesbian and gay people entering the states, um, because she had won a scholarship and she said that she, um, she wanted to, uh, study the gay movement amongst other things. Um, so they stopped her. Um, she went back to the university and they were having a forum, um, in the quad at, uh, at Auckland University. And she got up and, and explained what [00:55:00] had happened and said, does anybody want to join me in, in, uh, setting up gay liberation? And that's how it started. So there was a group that got going and they did many, um, many things in a very short period, uh, in Auckland and Nahuia was an amazing, um, amazingly busy activist at that time. She also went to Christchurch and she addressed the students at, um, Canterbury University. And she talked to a group that subsequently formed Gay [00:55:30] Liberation Front in Christchurch in May, 1972. And then she came to Wellington and she talked to some, um, uh, lesbian and gay people here who wanted to form a group. Um, but we were, we were a little bit slower. Um, and, uh, author and historian Brent Coutts, um, says that, um, in, uh, In June, um, Nigel Boer and Russ and David Russell from, uh, Auckland Gay Liberation Front, came [00:56:00] down to Wellington, had another, um, uh, had more discussions with the Wellington people. So there's, uh, , this, this was at Victoria University, um, talking to the Women's Forum. Um, she was a clipping from Christchurch. But actually in Wellington, um, it was, despite the fact that we had, yeah, despite, I'll be very quick, despite the fact that we had, um, quite, quite a few [00:56:30] prominent, um, gay men in the Dorian Society and Homosexual Law Reform Society, it fell to this guy who is a, um, a 19 university student by the name of Kevin McCone, um, who placed an ad in the student newspaper Salient on 12th of July, 1972. And this is the ad. So it was, it was asking people to call him. And he set up a meeting at his flat in Berhampore on Sunday, the 16th of July. And it [00:57:00] seems to me there's a little bit of dispute about the date, um, when, when Gay Liberation in Wellington was actually formed. But I think it was the 16th of July. And they, um, set up a, um, A little bit like the Women's Movement at the time, they rejected power structures and they set up a Troika, uh, and one of those people on the Troika was, um, Donald Raythorne, uh, who's here tonight and is also on the board of, of Lagans. [00:57:30] They had a big, uh, they had another meeting on the 19th of July, and they had a bigger meeting on the 20th, on the 30th of July at Victoria University. Um, their very first action was around here. Um, and, um, the opening night of here on the 4th of August, um, it seems really, really banal now, but they handed out leaflets. But if you think about it, um, you know, nobody, you know, nobody was out. Um, [00:58:00] and And so it was really challenging for the individuals themselves who went along to that, um, to hand out leaflets and say, I'm lesbian or gay as they handed out their leaflets. So the leaflets read, come out of your closets, let the sun shine in, gay liberation welcomes here to Wellington, and then included contact details for gay liberation. Um, so I'll just very quickly flick through. There was a conference in Auckland, uh, later that month. Um, so [00:58:30] that's really the beginning. That's really the end of the beginning, if you like. So, um, I'll give you your time back, Kevin. So thank you. Thank you so much, Kevin. Um, uh, we're so lucky that, that you're doing this research, Kevin, because it's so important. And I think you're an awesome person to be doing it. So, um, thank you so much for sharing some of that with us today. Um, it's now my pleasure to introduce our next speaker, [00:59:00] Sandy Gauntlett. Um, Sandy's been an activist their entire life. Uh, born an activist, trans, like a pathway, indigenous, environmental activism, and so much more. Um, I could wax lyrical, but all I really want to say is that Sandy's a hero of mine, and they're going to hate me for saying that, but it's true, and you've done amazing work, and I'm really, really pleased that Sandy is going to share their story today, and we can go a little way towards honouring everything that they've done, so welcome Sandy.[00:59:30] And she'll always hated the term hero. You know, I've hated it applying to anybody else except a parade. Um, but you know, the term hero, I've never been a hero ever. I have been a rebel. I have been an activist most of my life. I lived half of my life as a woman, [01:00:00] um, and was going to have a sex change, but in my early 40s, I had a heart attack and they told me it was the estrogen, the pure estrogen that I was on that had induced it. Um, Needless to say, I got pretty depressed and I went from 78 kilos to 149 in the matter of a year. Um, I'm not proud of that. The photo [01:00:30] in the book of me It's when I was about 29, something like that, that we'll manage to hunt out. Um, and as you can see, I was a lot skinnier then than I am now. Um, but I am now actually down to around 80 kilos. So that's, it varies between 79 and 83, but I've managed to [01:01:00] stabilize it in that variation. Um, I don't think anything. I have done has ever been heroic. It's just was what was natural to me. I believe in the principle of equality for us all, for everyone. And if I had one message to leave this meeting with, it would be leave no one. behind, [01:01:30] ever. It's, you know, um, I was, uh, raised in a Catholic school. You can imagine that wasn't fun. Um, my first time out in drag I was 12. And, um, Nobody had cars then. It was, you know, weird. Nobody in Avondale had cars then. And [01:02:00] I caught the bus into town because I knew of two queens who worked the streets down by a Chinese restaurant on Greats Avenue. And so I caught the bus into town and I was so paranoid about people realising I was in drag. I had. Oh God, I fitted into a size 12 Xiong Fam, I can't believe that. You know, it was the [01:02:30] Susie Wong dress, for those of you who don't know what a Xiong Fam is. And, um, it was my mother's by the way. I don't think she still knows, well she's dead now, I don't think she ever found out I borrowed it for the night. Um, and I Also put a packet of Tampax in the handbag I'd pinched off her, so that if I thought anyone was looking at me funny, I could shake it out and they'd see the Tampax. And [01:03:00] that would convince them that I was the woman. Um, not long after that, I started wearing drag. full time. I met the two queens at the bottom of Grace Avenue, and in those days, and I know some of you will find this hard to believe, no one, absolutely no one, would employ a transsexual. You know, ever, and I can remember getting done up in boys clothes and [01:03:30] combing my hair back and the whole bit and trying to get a job at Woolworths, and they told me they didn't employ lesbians, so you can't win either way, uh, and, um, Polly and Cleo, and they're both dead now, were like my camp mothers, if you know what I mean by that, and they showed me how to make money, And I am actually not ashamed of having been a [01:04:00] prostitute for several years of my life. We all have to eat, we all have to pay rent, and no one would give us a job. So you make money how you can. And I am so glad those days are gone for the younger generation. I, you are our future, in exactly eight days time, well seven and a half days now, I, it's my [01:04:30] birthday, and I, and I will be 73, and um, my bypass, caused by the heart attack, but Ended my life living as a woman, um, is now 32 years old and it's starting to fail. And I've never been scared of dying, ever, you know, but [01:05:00] I am scared of the pain of dying. There's a difference. So I've put it in my medical notes that if ever I'm admitted to hospital and there is no hope, they'd have put me into a coma. Because I want to die unconscious, you know, um, so I am not going to be around that much longer. So if you want to know anything about the history of Auckland, and by the way, Gay Liberation Auckland didn't [01:05:30] start with Nahuia. I mean, she was a big thing over, you know, not getting the visa, and she'd won the scholarship in America. There was a gay student movement on campus for about three years. Before that happened, and I know, because I used to go up and do drag shows to help them raise funds, and um, they all thought I was beautiful. I've never actually thought that. The [01:06:00] photo in the program shows me as being attractive, and I still don't, I still can't see that. You know, I can't. I look at myself now, and it is so hard not to cry, I do. I wanted to be a woman with every fiber of my being, and somehow some god [01:06:30] decided he was going to interfere. And that's, I'll leave it at that, if I have a wish for the future, I want all the young people, and some of the older people here, who are going to live on, to leave no one behind. Ever. Not once. You know, we all deserve. Equality. And we all deserve to have to fight for it, and to struggle for it, and to be a rebel, and to be an [01:07:00] activist. I'm so proud of being there my whole life. Thank you. Now, uh, it's my great pleasure to introduce our final speaker, um, for the evening. Ben Black, Ngāi Tūhoe, Whakatohea, Te Whānau a Apanui. He happens to have similar whakapapa connections to me, but I didn't realise he was [01:07:30] coming along tonight until earlier in the week. So, um, he has a background in, uh, working for non governmental organisations, supporting and advocating for people living with HIV and AIDS, and for our rainbow and Whakatāpui whānau. Currently, Ben is the Rainbow Youth, um, manager of Bay Plenty, uh, Rainbow Youth. Um, and he's going to talk about the Rainbow Youth Tauranga drop in centre, ASIM. Nō reira nau mai, haere [01:08:00] mai, Ben. Kia ora koutou katoa. Um, thank you for having me. It's, um, awesome to be here at this event celebrating queer history. So yeah, um, so I'm Ben, um, the Rambi Youth Manager for, um, the Bay of Plenty. And, um, I'm going to tell you a few of my thoughts and, um, some observations and feelings about the arts and the tech. And, um, I was thinking about it all day today and it was a little bit raw. [01:08:30] So, um, there's a few things that I want to explore, um, like grief, um, responding and reacting, um, and yeah, we'll just get straight into it. So, um, I found out about the asthma tech and, um, transit in Sydney. It was coming back from amazing research trip in, um, in Nepal. Um, so I had, um, 10 minutes to log onto the Wi Fi and I was getting all these strange messages, messages from reporters [01:09:00] or just random people asking me, uh, about my thoughts on this fire. Um, can I comment and things like that? So I was very confused and I didn't, didn't know until I really got back into the country and I was just devastated because, um, well, as you can imagine, It's just shocking news, and I was really devastated by some other news, um, that I found out in Nepal. So it was like layers of grief, um, and so I wasn't [01:09:30] only devastated, our whole rainbow community was devastated. Rainbow Youth was devastated, um, Tauranga was devastated. Um, so it got me thinking about grief, and as a rainbow people. We often, um, struggle with grief and we're part of communities, communities that are part of grief. So, um, it just made me think, how do we manage that? Where do we go for support? [01:10:00] Um, and the, also the societal impacts of grief. So there's withdrawal, um, isolation, um, uh, um, other challenges like that. So it can be quite, um, yeah, it's quite challenging. Um, the other thing I noticed is. A lot of people reacting rather than responding. Um, you know, as you know, it's quite shocking. So you don't quite know how to deal with something like that. I actually [01:10:30] Googled what to do after a fire because I didn't know. Um, um, but yeah, so, um, we thought really hard, um, we will consider it. We wanted to respond appropriately. So we just wanted to focus on our job and support our rainbow youth. And, um, create inclusive spaces, so that's what we did. So, um, we didn't respond to any silly [01:11:00] questions from the media, like, how does it feel, you know? Um, and sometimes you have to do things for your own sanity, too. Um, so Yeah, so it was devastating and I learned a lot of things along the journey, but also some amazing things, um, how a community can bond together to strengthen, um, a community and to rebuild and regain. Like, that was [01:11:30] overwhelming. I'd never seen anything like that, even though I know the community and I work in the community. So it was, it gave me lots of hope and encouragement. And I just want to have a, give a big shout out to all those people that gave us support to, and to our sister organisation, Gender Dynamics, who responded at the time and gave their support when it was needed. Um, and I just want to end on a whakatauki.[01:12:00] It goes, uh, Ka mati kāinga tahi, ka ora kāinga roa. When one house perishes, another shall rise. And there's nothing about us without us. Um, Sandy reminded me of that, um, in her talk just before. And I just want to leave you with that. And I'm just really excited about rebuilding and what other projects are going to come. So, kia ora, mauri ora, kia ta, kia koutou. Kia[01:12:30] ora mai, kia ora mai, Ben. The research project that Ben was talking about, I was on the same research project in, in Nepal and we're both working on it at the moment, uh, looking at, uh, Indigenous women and Māori women living with HIV and other Indigenous women, uh, around the, around the world. And so it was at that, um, uh, [01:13:00] forum that, uh, yeah, those, those issues came up, um, not only for Ben, but of course, as whānau, and we have to work out how to. How to help. And it's great being the way that you've encapsulated out of the ashes, um, highlighting the resilience of community, the resilience of people. Um, but also do we take care of ourselves? And part of our history is a way of taking, taking care of that, knowing that it has happened before, [01:13:30] knowing that it could happen again. And so to be, to be strong in that sense. So. In concluding, um, I'd really like to thank our speakers, once again, and I've always wanted to do this because I've been watching that MasterChef stuff, and, you know, I really wanted to, to be like Jock at the end and say, give it up for all our speakers, so please, can you give it up for all our speakers.[01:14:00] Thank you once again for coming along to this evening, a really significant occasion celebrating our history. Out of the ashes and my final conclusion I'd just like to recall some of the things that Lagans would like you to to also, um, you know, know about our monetary donations, what we're doing, um, donating queer material, letting people know that there is a place here, um, for our material and [01:14:30] I invite you. Or come and have a chat and mingle after this. No reira, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā rawa ati tātou katoa. Greetings everyone.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093083
TITLE: Coral Trimmer and Sylvia Bagnall
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Coral Trimmer; Sylvia Bagnall
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1940s; 1950s; 1ZB (radio); 2020s; 2ZB (radio); Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auschwitz concentration camp; Australia; COVID-19 (coronavirus); COVID-19 lockdown; Coral Trimmer; Dorothea Franci; Fire and Emergency New Zealand; Flaming Dagger (gang); Frank Sinatra; Gypsy; Helen Moulder; Janet Holborow; Jewish Lesbian Group of Victoria (Australia); Jon Trimmer; Judaism; Melbourne; Nazi Germany; Nazism; Paekākāriki; Paekākāriki Bowling Club; Pat McIntosh; Petone; Pomare; Pōhutukawa tree; Riet Hoagland; Sadler's Wells Theatre (London); St Peter's Village Hall; Sylvia Bagnall; The World's (Unofficial) Shortest Pride Parade; Val Little; World War 2; affection; bordello; brothels; butch; cafe; children; compulsory heterosexuality; dementia; film star; funeral; gay; harmonica; lesbian; letter; love; lover; marriage; marriage equality; music; musician; performance; piano; police; potluck dinners; racism; relationships; resistance; suicidal; sunset; surface marriage; txt; wish
DATE: 13 November 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: Paekākāriki, Paekākāriki, Kapiti Coast District
CONTEXT: Coral Trimmer and Sylvia Bagnall talk about their relationship, getting married, the past and future.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: October 2023
TEXT: If you could just introduce each other and tell me how you met. Okay. Well, my name is, oh no, I'm going to introduce this person. This is Cole Trimmer and I met her one day when I was volunteering at the local museum on the railway station and my friend and neighbor John Trimmer dropped in and said, come and meet my sister. She's over from Melbourne. She's a lesbian. So I popped out onto the, the the platform and I met her. [00:00:30] And then, um, the person who I'd already been going out with but wasn't quite popped in. I, I said go out on the platform. John Trim has got a lesbian sister. So, she went out and then Col came in while the train hadn't yet arrived. They're very punctual these people so they have plenty of time. And, uh, Col came in and talked to us and we liked her very much. I liked her very much. I didn't know that. Um, yes, I, [00:01:00] I, it was on one of my trips across when I lived in Melbourne. I flew often over as often as I could to see my brother John. And on one particular trip over, John told me about the, uh, woman that lived in this house across the road, and he, as a matter of fact, John said, I'd like to abort that house for you. But anyway, and um, that was that, and uh, I was with John, I think we were on the railway station or something. Yeah, waiting for a train. And he told me about these two women, Sylvia, and they, they didn't live [00:01:30] together, but um, Uh, they were a couple, and I said, oh, that's, that's lovely, and I had a, a, uh, a partner in Melbourne at the time who was in, who was in care. She had dementia. We'd been together a long time, 28 years. Um, and um, so I, uh, I thought, oh, I'll pop in and see these women. So I did. I popped in, and I remember, I remember them both quite, quite clearly, especially this one. And I thought, what a sweet, refined, quiet woman. [00:02:00] She was. And I'm a terribly bad judge of character. Um, But, uh, Yes, we weren't, I didn't know John had said that, that he had a lesbian sister because I've, I've never thought of myself as a, as a lesbian. I'm simply a woman that loves women. I don't particularly like labels. That's as simple as that. But I met her and, and I thought, I thought she was very, very nice. Uh, and on several trips over here, We would, I would [00:02:30] bump into this one here, and, and I still thought she was awfully nice. But I was to tell her my partner had died, um, and, um, when I, I flew over here in 2019, and, um, and then, uh, we met up again. How far would you like me to go with this meeting? That's how we first met, on the railway station. Anyway, so, she... Turned up a few more times and then had come to live here. And by that time, my partner had taken herself [00:03:00] into care and was developing dementia. But I was still looking after her and seeing her. And... So, I was glad that Coral had come here, and I thought I'd better tell her about a few things that are on for women like us, uh, so I invited her when a potluck was at my house and... It was funny, the potluck, because I'd been away, I was in Melbourne for a long, long, long time, um, and um, [00:03:30] I said to John, what's a potluck? And she said, Oh, you take something along, some little thing around. I said, Oh, okay. So I went to the local deli and I bought these little savory things. And when I did turn up here, I was so embarrassed to see all the things that people had bought. And I had this little... But look, it was very nice. It was full of, um, uh, gay women, lesbian women. And, um, I felt... They were very nice to me, but I didn't quite feel as though I fitted in. [00:04:00] And Sylvia was there, and I still thought she was very nice. Was at my house. Which was your house, yes, of course it was. Um, so, uh, we continued to bump into each other. And I liked her. I thought she, even when I found out she wasn't the quiet, refined, et cetera, et cetera. Um, I, I, I just, I just liked her. I thought she was a very nice woman. And, um, but I had no intention of a relationship. I had, I, I, I didn't want, I didn't want that anymore. [00:04:30] And I didn't want to live with anybody. I had a very nice apartment by this time. And, um, yeah, we, um, I was up in Auckland at, uh, in 2019 before, just before I flew home, um, uh, taking part in a documentary by a Dutch, uh, docker crew, uh, about a woman that I had lived with in the, from 1953 to 1960. She was a Dutch immigrant and a part of the resistance movement and a war hero. She was 10 years my [00:05:00] senior and she was my first. Um, my first affair, uh, I was 23 and, uh, not very happy. I met her and, um, we went into a relationship and we went up to Walken to live because it was too uncomfortable living down here with my family. Um, I didn't want them to find out about my sexuality. And, uh, so they, and I'm the only one left alive that knew this woman. Tell them how you met. how we [00:05:30] met, Reet. Would you like to know that? I do. I want to know all about Reet. So maybe we can leave it for just a little bit later in the interview. Okay. Because I would like to know what are the best attributes of each of you, if you could say what are the best attributes for the other person? What? What is best? Well, Carl's a marvellous musician and um, before we're Actually started going out together. I'd seen her play and she's so [00:06:00] physical. She means sexy. I mean sexy, but it comes across in the way she moves and plays. She was sexy. So that, that, that was nice. And it turns out to be right. She is very sexy. Um, also has got a good sense of humor and is very cuddly, which is, is important to me, and sexy, and very affectionate, and, [00:06:30] um, we like a lot, our politics are similar, which is important to me, and we like the same kind of food. So when I asked her to move in with me, um, she said yes, but she took a while. Because she didn't want to offend her landlady, I think. That was funny, yeah. Yep. Well the, um, with, with Sylvia, I just, I [00:07:00] just liked her. I thought she was, she, she was just a nice woman, and, um, what happened was that, um, Helen Mulder, who, who lives down, and you know Helen, yeah, she's a dear friend of mine, um, she phoned me up one day and she said, Coral, I'm, uh, I've got two free tickets for you for my um, play at St. Peter's, such and such a day. I said, Oh, lovely. Thank you. And I said to John later, who on earth am I going to ask? And then I thought, I wonder if, because I knew she was on her own, [00:07:30] wonder if Sylvia would like to go. And, um, because I liked her, uh, as a, as a person, um, I phoned her. I, I did, I sent her a text message because I don't like rejection very much, and I thought she might say no. So instead of facing up to her, I sent her a text message message telling her that I had these tickets, would she liked to go with me? And I had an, an immediate answer saying she'd love to, and I said, fine. So, um, [00:08:00] we, it was still, it's still, it was still, I, I liked her as a person. I had no thoughts of anything. Did you darling? No. You didn't chase me a little bit. Oh, well, I have been, but I wasn't conscious of it. And she had been away. Now she tells me now that she had been away, but... Well, it was more like, I thought, poor Coral's come from the great metropolis, and she doesn't know people here. So, when there was something on, I wanted to take, make sure you knew. And, when you had the, she was going to perform, [00:08:30] a concerto that had been written especially for her, for harp and harmonica. And it was deferred, it was cancelled. Yes, COVID, yes. COVID, was it? And so I thought, poor Cole, she's supposed to be playing this afternoon. So I said, come and have afternoon tea. And I invited some of the local girls around. Do you remember that? Yes, I do. Sunny, Sunny Amies. Um, that was another time. Was it? Yeah. Oh, that's right. Yes. That was another time. Oh, another time when she was over here before all this happened. Yes. [00:09:00] That was nice. I, I, I still, and we had wine in the backyard and that was fun. That was, but I don't drink. Um, but you did that day. Did I? Yeah. Oh, okay. Um, no, uh, I just, I liked her as a person and even, and that, that afternoon. Um, I, I thought, she's really, really nice. It's a pity she's tied up. I didn't tell you that, did I? No, you didn't tell me that. Oh, sorry. So anyway, then we had this other afternoon tea here. So I realized it probably was taking an interest in you. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Just [00:09:30] because I thought you were nice at that stage. Yeah, but the thing is with this, um, this play, uh, we went to the play. She was late. She says, I'm always on time. She was late. Chronically punctual. Um, Well, we met outside St. Peter's and we went in and sat in the front row and something happened. We went too late for the play. No, of course we're not darling. I'd never say that. Um, uh, we were sitting in the front row and, and Sylvia had an arm, her arm, put her arm around in the back of the chair [00:10:00] and she came over and kissed me lightly on the cheek and I said, God, you'll have the whole village talking. She said, I don't care. And I thought, no. Oh, this is dangerous. I don't want any women in my life. Dangerous. But anyway, the play was fun. It was. An innocent kiss. That one was. That was an innocent kiss. And after the play, we walked out and we stopped outside St. Peter's by the pedestrian crossing. And I did something that I wouldn't normally [00:10:30] do. And this is the honest truth. I kissed her. On the lips. Just gently. Not gently. Oh no, you told me it was too hard the first time. Gently the second and third time. Three kisses. I gave her just three and I thought, oh, that's quite nice. And Sylvia had to go that way and I had to go that way and I said, look, I'll walk you across the crossing. So we walked across the pedestrian crossing and on the corner, we chatted there under the Pohutukawa tree. Oh, you watch out for that Pohutukawa tree. It's, ugh. [00:11:00] We stood under the Pohutukawa tree And I just, I kissed her again, and that really was not characteristic, because I'm usually a little bit, ahem, be careful kid. Um, and I kissed her again, and it was very nice, and she walked away and stopped, turned around, rang back, um, put her arms around me, and kissed me very passionately, and, and I, all I could do then was say to her, oh, wow. And you said the same. Yeah, so off I [00:11:30] went. So off she went. But I sort of skipped all the way home, I feel. Then I went, I went around home and I thought, What is happening? I don't want this. No, no, no, no, no, no. And I thought, I shouldn't have done this. I'm such a gentleman. I sent her a text message which said, I don't usually do this, please forgive me. And I had a reply back straight away saying, Nothing to forgive, I liked it. Well I did. You liked it. And then, um, we [00:12:00] went into lockdown, didn't we? Yes, almost straight away. You can tell about it. So, you know, you have to go for walks. So, I walked past her place. Well, actually, I had walked past her place. But I pretended I was walking past her place and said, I threw a kiss up your driveway. And she said something nice back. And then. We started meeting and going for walks, you're allowed to. I just made my bubble a wee bit bigger. [00:12:30] Yes, we went for walks into the parks. Every day. Yeah. And we, we sat on the park benches and we, we became very, um, Affectionate. Cuddly. Yes. Affectionate. And if you remember that first lockdown was lovely weather. It's good for walks. And it was lovely but I knew that I was really starting to feel something quite strong for this one and I didn't want to. I really did not, I had my music, [00:13:00] um, I didn't, I didn't want to do this, and, um, we were walking along the beach one, one day, holding hands, and it was so lovely. And I stopped her, and I said, look, there's something I want to tell you, I think I'm falling in love, I think I'm going to cry. I think I'm falling in love with you, and I don't know what to do about it. And what did you say? Uh, me too, basically. Yes. But it was difficult because, um, [00:13:30] we didn't want to uh, hurt anybody and so on. And there were one or two people around here that knew that we were seeing each other and weren't very nice about it. It was hard not to know, really. It was very hard not to know because we walked hand in hand everywhere. And every time we walk under that But, um, so that's how it all started, um, [00:14:00] but when, when Sylvia, we, we were, we became, we became lovers. We did, it was your fault, you did that. I did not. Yeah, we were sitting, the couch was over there. We did it together. Oh, okay. Um, but, um. Yeah, and we found we did have a lot in common, but there's a big age difference, and I thought about She won't, she won't accept that. Um, it doesn't matter. I mean, our [00:14:30] relationship is extraordinary actually. This is quite extraordinary. I have, I have loved women as Sylvia has, and she's been married of course, but I don't, to a man. Mm-hmm. . Oh, to a man, a bloke. Oh, yeah. Married to you now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. Yeah. And, um, but I, I've never, ever had, um, the same feelings for anybody else that I have for Sylvia. And it seems sometimes I think, what, you know, what is this? But I think [00:15:00] maybe that's the reason I had to come home. So meet this ridiculously crazy woman that wears mad clothes sometimes. But, um, yeah, so that, that's really how it all started. And when Sylvia asked me, we had, we had become lovers and, uh, she would spend the time at my place and then I would come down here. And it was lovely. And she was a good cook. Um, and, um. She asked me to move in, and I was [00:15:30] surprised. I didn't expect that. And I didn't want to live with anybody anymore. Um, I'd become terribly independent, and I'd been on my own for a while. And I thought about it, and I thought, I think, yes, yes. I was very, very aware of mortality, and I'm very aware, uh, we may not have a long time, well we won't have a long time together, we can't plan ten years ahead, we can't do anything like that, but I thought, [00:16:00] I love this woman. Um, and so I said yes. Yes, I will move, and so she, we moved, I moved in here, and she created that wonderful music room for me, got hold of a piano that belonged to Val, uh, it's a 1901 Beckstein, beautiful piano because I, I write a lot of music, and um, I moved in and that was lovely and, uh, for some reason one day, [00:16:30] oh, I, Yeah, wasn't there? Oh no, before I moved in, I sent you another text message, because I'm a coward. I sent a text message, which, which said, um, there's something I know, I want to ask you, and I know it's impossible. But if it was possible, I would ask you to marry me. I simply wanted you to know this. I knew it couldn't happen. I said, this can't happen. I wanted you to know that, and I texted it. And I had a reply straight away. [00:17:00] No, first you sent a message saying, there's something I want to ask you, but I can only ask by text. Oh, that's right. So I just said, okay, ask, you know, and then she said. That's right. Yes. I would ask you to marry me, but I know it's impossible. Yes, and I, I, I thought I'd receive a text back, but I wanted her to know how I felt. It didn't matter if she said no. That was not important. But I think it was important for her to know that I was genuine, and I really felt that. Uh, and I received a text back straight [00:17:30] away saying, um, Not impossible, not yet, but dot, dot, dot. And I thought, oh, okay. I didn't expect that. And, um, then I moved in. And... What happened, darling? Have I left something important out? Yes. Not the time you asked me, anyway. The order it happened, but it doesn't matter. You came to the railway station. Yes, I'm just going into it. Before you moved in. [00:18:00] Oh, did I? Oh, so I did. That's right. I was on duty again. We feel as though we've been together forever. That's the whole thing. It's crazy. Um, yes, I went to the railway station one day when Sylvia was, um, on duty there, uh, at reception, and I walked in, and I, I didn't plan this. At all. I walked in, I got down on one knee, and I said, Will you marry me? And I think, expecting her to laugh, and she said, Yes. And I said, Pardon? I beg your pardon? Then I helped her up. [00:18:30] She helped me up. I beg your pardon? I said, Oh, okay. And then it suddenly became a plan. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I moved in. And my, my landlady was Janet Holbrook, who was our new mayor. And, uh, she's, she became a good, she had become a good friend, and it was a lovely place I'd been living in, and I thought, oh, how can I tell her? We played a lot of music together also. I thought, how am I going to [00:19:00] tell her, I've only been here a year. So, um. I saw her and I said, Janet, there's something I have to tell you. I'm moving out. She said, oh, you're moving in with Sylvia. I said, yeah, she's all good, and clapped her hands. The whole village knew, I think. And then I said, and also, we're getting married. Oh, wonderful. I'll bring a string quartet. I said, okay, that would be very nice. So, so that, that, that's, it all happened, it did happen rather quickly, but I mean if we were young kids, [00:19:30] but we're not, and we may only have a few weeks together. We may have a couple of years, we may have more. I don't understand that. But nobody knows how long they've got anyway. No, they won't, darling. No. So we have to make every minute count. And so on. And it does. Oh, we don't agree about everything, do we, darling? No. Uh huh. It's not so much we don't agree about things, sometimes we We don't like how the other person's saying something. Yes, we get offended. [00:20:00] One person gets offended, then I get offended. I don't know whether this is common. But, but, but we do, and then we wonder why we say things, but we get over it, I think, haven't we? We do. We do. We get over it, yeah, and we talk about this is, this is, what are we doing? This is, this is, this is really very silly. But I do feel as though we've been together forever. So, once we decided to get married, we didn't... Wait long, you know, we just thought, let's have a wedding at Easter because people can come. [00:20:30] And so it was only about 6 or 8 weeks later. Something like that. Yeah. But everybody we asked to do something said yes. It was lovely, so we didn't, didn't have any trouble organising it. So this, this was um, Easter this year, 2022? Yep, yep, we're just newlyweds. Wow. And we didn't even, we, we paid for hardly anything. Uh, of Pattenvale. They organized the whole wedding, said you don't have to do a thing. [00:21:00] Nothing. So they... Yes. Yeah, so we, we talked about going on the beach, but it turned out to be a very windy day and no one could hear anything. It wasn't raining. No. Um, and the reception at the bowler and the... The default was to the bowling club, so, and then we had it, but we said to Pat, you make the call, tell us where we're going, you know. So, um, Pat and Val did everything for us, decorated the hall and all that sort of thing, and the celebrant's a friend, and she, when I [00:21:30] just, we asked her, she was just delighted, wanted to do it. And Anne Marie Statt, when I said, would you take photos, yes, absolutely, she was all over the place. She didn't want us to pay. Yeah, yeah. It was, it was, it was an extraordinary day. And the bowling club, when I went to pay them, At the end they said, oh, we did all right on the day because I got a bar. Don't worry very cash. Yes So then somebody somebody put some money in an [00:22:00] envelope for us Which we use for our honeymoon part of we had a couple of lovely nights at the Chateau. Yes Yeah, and when I asked Louis to do the flowers. She only wanted the cost of the flowers and the pet went up to get them. Everybody was, and my brother, my darling brother John, he was the ring, one of the ring bearers. Oh, so I asked the local fire brigade, because [00:22:30] when we were going to have it on the beach, I wondered if John could be brought on, he doesn't walk very well. Now, um, I could bring him on the all purpose vehicle, which they use for rescues and things. And they, they were delighted to, or the friend, my friend in the fire brigade was delighted too. And so when we said, Oh, it's going to be at the boulder after all, she said she'd still take him. So she took him and my lovely niece Maria, who was the other ring bearer. So they arrived on, on the, [00:23:00] on the fire buggy. Same sex marriages, um, around the world haven't been available to people for, for, for, for, um, not that long. No, no, Australia certainly not. How did it feel, um, exchanging vows? It is, I don't know about my lovely wife. But suddenly I, it seemed so normal. It seemed so, it seemed so right. [00:23:30] Um, I don't, I had always wanted to marry, even as a little girl. I am a 150% lesbian. Uh, I have never been with a man, uh, only because I didn't see the point That's as simple as that. Up until the age of about, um, 14, I wanted to be a boy desperately wanted to sex change. Um, but was terrified, and then when I realized what awful things men had to do, go to war and dig [00:24:00] ditches and stuff like that, I thought, no, I don't think I want to be a man, I'll stay a woman, but I was aware of my sexuality, and um, uh, um, but I always wanted to meet a lovely woman. And get married, as simple as that. Uh, I proposed, I proposed to many, a lot of film stars. I used to write, write to them and send the letters, and put my name and wonder why they never ever answered. Um, thank heavens they didn't. But to me, [00:24:30] getting married to a woman, a special woman, was a very normal thing, but I'm so fussy. I'm terribly, terribly fussy. And it had to be somebody, somebody very special. And, um, I didn't know it would be a woman that, Had three grown up kids and six grandchildren, but they're all lovely to me. They're just lovely to me, but It just seemed right. In Australia, of [00:25:00] course, not long before I left, the law changed and so on. But, um, up until then, I did, I had friends over there, two women, that were married, um, by a, a gay Catholic priest, underground. But it wasn't, never, it was never legal. But, it's, how do you feel about it, darling? Ah, well, good. I, I know, I went along to the rallies for, [00:25:30] change, uh, to the law. And I had been in a civil union, um, my partner died. So, um, but there are lesbians around who say marriage was never any good for women, so why would we want it now? And yet, I, I feel something in the traditional vows that you make. We didn't, we didn't... We just made up our own vows. In fact, I just thought about it as I went. But, [00:26:00] I'll have to wait until I see the film to know what I actually said. But, um, but I've thought about it since the thing, you know, was my body, I thee worship, and with all my worldly goods, I thee endow, and all those things. and crucial. They're just the commitment to share your life with someone. And, and because you committed. If, if you have a row or something, you know you'll get over it and you need to get over it and you can't just take [00:26:30] off or, I mean you can of course, but I don't want to. I you to. I'm not. Okay, I know you, but what I know is you could chase after me. I'll chase you, yes. Okay, that's alright. Yes. Yes. But it's just the security of knowing that you have a commitment is really nice. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes, the commitment. I felt very calm throughout the whole thing and I thought, gee, I'm proud of me. Because I have a tendency to get a wee bit nervous sometimes and I thought this is, this is, [00:27:00] this is big. This is, this is big. What I'm doing is just so, you know, I'm giving my, my My mind, my body, my soul, my life to somebody else, and she is giving it to me. And this, this is not something you sneeze at. This is so important. So I was as calm as anything. When it came to signing the register, I couldn't. It took me ages. My hand was like, you silly old bag. What are you doing? But I did, of course. But [00:27:30] um, yeah, and having my brother there. It was wonderful. I have a sister in Prorongia, um, who was very, very lovely and, and, uh, she couldn't get down. Her husband was not well, but one of her sons and his wife, a little girl, came down and, and that, that meant so much to me. Um, I did think about my mum and dad a bit. Uh, I don't know how they would have reacted. I, I, I don't, I don't know. I really don't know. But, um, [00:28:00] yeah, yeah. Those, those were, I don't, I don't remember. Do you remember what you said? I don't remember. Um, I, um, I said I love you. Oh. And, um, I want to be with you forever. Yeah, forever. But I can't remember. We'll have to wait till we see the film. The whole thing of falling in love, I mean, You fall in love with somebody, and it happens to be a woman in our case. And if a man will fall in love with another man, so it's love. [00:28:30] You know, it shouldn't be questioned. And I, I've watched, um, so many men, young men, gay men, I knew mainly gay men when I lived in Auckland, and in Melbourne for that matter, and I loved being with them, it was such fun and I felt so comfortable, but I lost so many of them, lost some of them to AIDS of course, and some who took their life. Um, and, and this, it shouldn't, it shouldn't [00:29:00] be. And I've witnessed some terrible things, um, years ago with some of my lovely gay friends who were beaten up by police, or raped by police. It's, it's, for what? Because they've, because they fall in love with somebody of the same, it's ludicrous. It's like racism is ludicrous. This is, this is, this is ludicrous. Sorry, I get hit up. I thought you were going to say some, some go into heterosexual or surface [00:29:30] marriages. And you would know about that. People who get married to a woman, are a woman who get married to a man, but they're really gay. So they either agree to go their own ways, or else they, they try hard to change and it doesn't work. Look, it doesn't work. Um, if, if I know of one particular case where the, the, the, the young man is very gay. I knew a couple who were like that, but they were good friends, and they just agreed to go their own ways. Yeah, that's, that's very well, yes. Share [00:30:00] a house, and, you know, they had a lot in common that wasn't to do with sex, so, that can work. But, you shouldn't have to disguise. No, and what about you, darling? I mean, you married, you married a guy. I married a guy, yes. Yeah, and you had your babies, you always wanted babies. Well, I, I... You can have them, I'll look after them, but I don't want them. I mean, I don't want to have them. I'm not having any more. Imagine. No. Um, well, I didn't... I didn't know it was an option when I was a young woman. You know, I grew up in the 50s, 60s, sort of [00:30:30] compulsory heterosexuality, and you had to get married. You couldn't even have sex without getting married, or, well, because you did, but you weren't supposed to. Uh, so, um, I didn't know. When I did realize that women, um, Could be lesbians. Because I got to know some people who were, people younger than me who were kind of free about it. I thought, well that's an option, but I'm not free to take that option, you know. I've never had [00:31:00] that problem because from my first waking, my first thinking moments as a youngster, I felt different to the, I wanted to be a boy and I used to have weeing competitions with my brother when we wore shorts and he would wee out of the side of his pants and I'd try it and just make a mess down my leg. And it used to upset me terribly. But, uh, I was the leader of a gang in Batoni. We didn't do anything. We just called ourselves a gang. It was the Flaming Dagger Gang, and I was the only woman and I was in charge. [00:31:30] Um, but I, and I... Only a little girl, you mean? Yes. Yeah. And, um, a little girl. Yeah, and, and, I, I didn't, um, it didn't, didn't worry me. Um, I loved, I adored my dad. I wanted to be like my dad. I used to follow him around like a puppy dog, and he was a beautiful, gentle soul. We used to go into the bush, used to tell me the names of the trees and the bushes and the birds and, and, and so he was a violinist. He played violin and, uh, he was, he [00:32:00] was a lovely guy. And, um, I thought, I didn't think anything of it. And I had two sisters who were lovely, used to do anything for me, do my sewing and whatever, because I couldn't do it and I didn't want to. And I just liked all the little boy things. I liked all the little boy things. And I actually, I used to think to myself, well, everybody must be like this. And as I get older, it will go away. And I'll want to get married to some nice [00:32:30] young man or something and have babies. But it didn't go away. And, uh, closer, the closer I got to puberty, the worse it became. And at 14, I discovered... My, my sister had, uh, it was touring with a musical comedy company, she was a dancer, and she came home after touring, and she said, Oh, Coral, Mum, come on, I must tell you about these funny people in our show. There are men who make love together, and I froze. And I [00:33:00] listened, and she said, And there are girls too that do that. And Mum said, Oh, that's, that's impossible, naturally. And I froze. And went hot and cold and I thought, that's me, I'm one of those horrible people. And that's when I start, I, I thought about suicide, ending my life, seriously. But I didn't because of what I thought, what it would do to mum and dad, it would destroy them. And I loved them, they were lovely parents. So I um, I, I didn't know what to do and I decided, I knew I couldn't, I [00:33:30] couldn't marry. I went out, I had boyfriends, but I wouldn't even let them kiss me goodnight. And, uh, I, I knew I just couldn't do this. It would be, it would be wrong, it would be unnatural for me, personally, to do this. Um, and in Batoni, I thought, well, there's nobody else here like me. I can't meet anybody. So I just, I, I, I drove myself with my music. I was studying piano seriously to be a concert pianist then. And, um, I, I thought I would become a [00:34:00] spinster. They will call me a spinster and laugh at me and make fun of me. I don't care, and I'll just concentrate on music. So I did until I was 23. So there you are. It's um, it's our, our backgrounds are so different. One similarity between the both of you that you've talked about is dementia and dementia within, you know, with, with partners. Yeah. You don't need to respond to this, but I'm [00:34:30] wondering, I mean, how, I've heard dementia be referred to as a very long goodbye. How, how have you found, um, living with someone with dementia? It's awful. It is, it's such a debilitating thing. And especially if somebody you, you cared about, um, intelligent. Such an, such an intelligent, so, uh, Rachel was so intelligent and, and such [00:35:00] fun and we had, we had a great time together all those years. It was really, really lovely. Um, I, I, I had a, um, my great grandfather was Jewish. We were never brought up in that faith, of course. But, um, they were, he, he was Jewish and because of that I was accepted into the Jewish community. I was Rachel's partner, and so on, and we had lots and lots and lots of fun. It was, it was good fun, and when she died, actually, she left me a very nice [00:35:30] little amount of money, uh, which I found very emotional. Her wedding, uh, her wedding, listen to me, her, um, funeral, her funeral, if I, if I may, um, Uh, she belonged to a group called the Jewish Lesbian Group of Victoria and I was accepted because I was Rachel's partner. And, uh, they were lovely women. Very, very beautiful people. And, um, there were some musicians [00:36:00] amongst them, which was lovely for me. We could chat and play music. And, um, when Rachel died, they looked after me. They were so wonderful. They made sure I was not alone. I was living alone, of course. But they... Picked me up and they drove me to the funeral. It was in a funeral parlor and lots of people there, lots of cousins, lots of Jewish family there, and she had a brother, David. They were not very close. He had arranged the funeral and Rachel had said, [00:36:30] at one stage, to her brother, when I die, I want a, I want a female rabbi who was not religious, and we found one. And, um, she, as I met her, and she was lovely to me, wanted to know about our relationship and so on and so forth. And she made sure that I sat in the front with David, otherwise I wouldn't have been there. I sat in the very front with David. And she came up, and she, usually in a Jewish funeral, they start with a, um, a, [00:37:00] a, a sort of a hymn in, uh, in Hebrew. And we were waiting for that. And she started singing a Frank Sinatra love song. And when it was over, she said, that's for you Coral. Which was quite lovely. The whole thing was very emotional. She talked about our relationship. And, um, at the end of a Jewish funeral, just before they take the coffin out, they form this, uh, they call it the Love, Tunnel of Love. There are people on each side. And the two, the people closest to the [00:37:30] person who's, uh, the deceased person walks down. between them. And David and I walked down there. That was incredibly emotional. And then we wait outside until the coffin comes out. But, uh, I'll never forget that. That, uh, everybody was so kind and her relations came up and I had no idea. I didn't know whether she had any money. She could have been as poor or rich. I hadn't, I hadn't, we didn't talk about that much. So she left me a little bit and, um. About, it was two, about two years after she had died, I thought, oh, I'll come [00:38:00] home, I will come home. But, um, it's, it's a, it's a horrible thing to watch. I, thinking about dementia, it would be different for me if I was living with my partner. If, if, if you had dementia, it won't happen because Cora's got a better memory than me. I'm the one who gets forgetting names and things. Um, but if, If you had dementia, because we've got a pattern of living together, I think we could just keep going. Oh, of [00:38:30] course we could. No, and, and, whereas if, if it's someone who you pick up and take out all the time, it's a different kind of pattern. Of course. Yeah. Yes, of course. Yes, of course. Yeah. When we first met, which was during the World's Shortest Pride Parade here in Paikakariki. Yes. Which was amazing. Um, you said to me that, uh, Coral, you said to me that being in Paikakariki [00:39:00] is the first time you've been able to authentically be yourself. Yes. Absolutely. In Melbourne I couldn't. Um, I, I didn't, I, I've, I've, there's my brother John there. Going past. Um, yes, I lived a fairly secluded life in Melbourne, though I was performing a great deal, but I had to be terribly, terribly careful. And I know I do walk a bit funny. Not very... Female, not very, but, [00:39:30] I hate that saying, but anyway, um, Yeah, yes, and I came to Pai Kakariki and, and I just suddenly felt so much at home. People accepted me. They knew immediately just by looking at me, heaven knows why. that I may have been a lesbian. I have no idea why they thought that, um, and I'd taken my moustache off and everything. But, um, it was a bit, a bit different to London. I was in London when John was there with the ballet company, Sadler's Wells, and I was there playing vaudevillian [00:40:00] variety and, uh, bordellos. Yes, and I didn't know I was in one. Um, I was booked to play at this particular place in Soho and I walked down, I was a kid from Botoni, I walked down into this basement and I thought, oh gosh, they must love horses because there were whips on the wall. I was from Botoni, how would I know? But um, uh, yeah, um, but even in London I had to be very, very careful. [00:40:30] Um, I was worn by my agent. I had to wear long dresses and, on stage, and stiletto heels and, and, uh, She had beautiful long, golden clothes. Yes, I had long, golden hair in those days. And, um, I, I, I, eyelash stuff and, oh God, no, false fingernails, falsies, falsies, because I didn't have much there. And, so, I, I, I was living a lie, the whole time living a lie. I was living with a woman at that time. But it was still a lie. You had to tell stories [00:41:00] and make up things, and I just, I just hated it. And, um, when I came home to, uh, Paekakariki, it was such a relief. Everybody, not just the gay community, but everybody was so nice. And, um, I could be myself suddenly. And, um, and then I met Pat and Val, of course, and they made me the patron of the Pride Parade. And the first one I was in, I was on the back of a motorbike that [00:41:30] nearly killed me. But, I mean, but, yeah, it was wonderful. And all this hiding, you know, I hid from my parents for so many years. Until my mum did find out, in a very, I was 34. And I was living at home, just before I went to Melbourne. And um, John had arrived back home from London and still lived with Mum and Dad. And I was still in London and I had met this woman and I wrote a very graphic letter to John. [00:42:00] About, um, my new love. And mum found the letter in John's room and read it. She, which she should not have done, but she did read it. And when I came home that day, she said, I know. And she told me about the letter. And, and she said, is it my fault? I said, no, mum, nobody's fault. I've always been this way. And, um. And she said, well, when did you find out? I said, well, I, I knew what it was when I was 14. And she said, why [00:42:30] didn't you tell me? I said, you would have taken me to a doctor, wouldn't you? She said, yes. And I said, that would have destroyed me. And she cried. And she held me. And she said, I love you even more. So there you are. But she never spoke of it again. Mum lived with me for the last six years of her life in Melbourne, but she never spoke of it again. But, um, so all this, all this deception, it shouldn't [00:43:00] be. Then you came out on National Radio. Did I ever come out on National Radio here? Oh, wow. Yes. I, I had a, I was, hadn't been home very long and I had a call from, uh, national Radio, radio New Zealand, asking me for an interview, and I said, well, yes, all right. I thought it had something to do with my music and, um, or John and, um, anyway, during the interview it was, it was fine, the interview was fine, and then she said, now [00:43:30] you knew the Dutch woman. Um, resistance movement. She was in the resistance during the Second World War, yes. At 21 she was caught by the Nazis and thrown into jail. Uh, three months solitary confinement. She was not allowed to wash or change her clothes. She lived on bread and water. She eventually, uh, released her eventually. And, uh, she immigrated to New Zealand. And I met her when she'd been in the country about two [00:44:00] weeks. And I'd met her and, um, we, um, Taught me, she taught me all about love in a paddock in Taita. And it was very beautiful. She asked you... What darling? This was at a cafe where Reet was working. I, I had a friend called Pat, Pat Bridgman. She was, um, she was not gay, but I told her about myself. And I thought I was in love with her because this happens. But I wasn't really. [00:44:30] And we used to do a lot of shows together around Paterney and Lower Hutt. She would sing. And I would play the guitar, the ukulele, or the harmonica, or whatever happened to be around. And, um, She was working as a waitress, a very bad waitress, in a fish restaurant in Wellington, and she phoned me one day. She said, I want you to, uh, to, I want you to meet, to, uh, introduce somebody to you. I said, oh, okay. So I rolled up at the cafe and sat there until they closed the doors, [00:45:00] and then Pat said to me, Oh, she's washing dishes. She'll be here in a moment, and out walked this woman, incredibly attractive woman, with a big smile. She was, uh, ten years, I was twenty three, she was thirty three. She walked out and sat opposite me, and she looked and she said, My name's Rit, and I said, I couldn't talk. I just mouthed the word coral and shook hands. And she looked at me and she said, Do you like boys? I said, No. [00:45:30] No, I couldn't talk. And she said, Good. You like girls? She said, Yes! Yes, nodded my head. And she was, she was really truly wonderful. She knew that I was terrified. I had no idea about love between women. All I knew was what I felt. And, um, I, I didn't know how good or bad it was. And I, I, I just, there was nobody to talk to. And. She, she was working, washing [00:46:00] dishes. She had several degrees, including one in English Literature, and she was a writer and a journalist. But she was washing dishes. She was, she couldn't get a decent job anywhere. And, um, every Friday night when she finished at the restaurant, um, she would meet me and, um, we would go to the library. Outside the library there were some, some seats and we'd sit there and she would hold my hand. For several weeks she just would hold my hand and tell me about the gay scene in Amsterdam, London, Paris. [00:46:30] Until I started to feel so good about myself. And I started to realize there's nothing wrong with me. There's been nothing wrong with me. And um... It was, and she, we would invite her out to our house. We'd moved from Batoni then into Pomari out past Taita. And, uh, she came out this afternoon for Sunday lunch with my family. And, um, she was an incredibly attractive woman. [00:47:00] And, um, highly intelligent. And she and I were washing the dishes after lunch. And I was shaking and I said to her, I don't know what's wrong with me, I must be getting sick, I can't stop trembling. I didn't know what it was. And she said, she had perfect English, almost too perfect. You finish the dishes and you go and tell your parents we're going for a walk. I said, so I did and she took my hand and we went for a walk and we went through the paddock. And that's when she [00:47:30] taught me all about love. And, uh, and we were together for seven years. She wanted me to live with her in Wellington, and I said, I can't do that. Not with my family here. I can't do it. This place is too small. And um, I left my piano teacher, left everything. And um, we went up to Auckland, and we were there from 1953 to 1960. We lived together, and we had a lovely time. [00:48:00] Um, and I, I, uh, I'd always wanted to go to England because I'd, uh, there was nowhere else for me to perform. I'd played on two, two, there were two radio stations in Wellington and Auckland, two YA, two ZB, and one YA, one ZB. That's all there was, and I played on them regularly, and we had a, the night, a couple of nightclubs in Auckland, I worked all the night venues in Wellington, and um, I was, I was, I'd just turned 30, um, I'd been studying composition with Dorothea Franchi in [00:48:30] Auckland, had three years with her, uh, fantastic, um, uh, composer and harpist, and um, that's when she wrote the Concerto for Harmonica, Harp and Strings for me, and we played it at the Arts Festival up there in 1960. And there was nowhere else to go, and I begged Rit to come with me to Europe. She said, I can't. She couldn't go back there. There's no way. So I went on my own and, uh, intending to stay away for two years and coming home to be with [00:49:00] Rit again. And, um, but it didn't work like that. Rit found somebody else and so did I in London. But we remained very good friends. And she died very young. She was only 49. And she died. I was back in New Zealand then. No, I was in Melbourne. But I spoke to her on the phone a couple of days before she died, but I'm, I'm forever grateful, and, um, that, that she, and she was, she was, she was beautiful about it. There was nothing horrible or ugly or nothing [00:49:30] like that. She was, she was quite lovely. One of the things I find really hard when I look back at, say, World War II and the atrocities that happened, to actually kind of comprehend how the hell that all this happened. I don't know. And I'm wondering with Ret, what was the... What was in terms of like, psychologically, from all of that stuff? Well look, she was an extraordinary woman. Uh, she, she really was. Um, what happened was, [00:50:00] she was distributing anti Nazi pamphlets during, at the beginning of the occupation. And, um, she was caught. Occupation of the Netherlands. Oh yeah, of Holland, yes, of course. Um, it was in Amsterdam. And, um, Uh, she, she was, I've seen photographs of her at, at that age, at 21 and she was very beautiful, extremely beautiful woman. And, um, what, what she had to [00:50:30] do to get through that time. I dunno, I didn't ask her, I didn't ask her anything about the war because I thought they could open wounds. I knew if she wanted me to know, she would tell me, and she did at times. But, um, she, she was fine, but. There were little things that happened. I mean, uh, uh, when we lived in, in Pumare, we were close to the Hutt River, and there are big rocks along the Hutt River, and, and quite often she and I would walk along there, and we're walking along there one day, and [00:51:00] she stopped, and I thought she was going to pass out, and I, oh, I'm sorry, and she, um, and I held her. and managed to sit down with her. I said, What's wrong? And she said, That red paint. Someone had spilled red paint on the rocks. And then she told me the story about, um, it was before she was picked up and thrown into jail, that, um, some Nazis had, soldiers had been, a couple of them had been killed. By the resistance movement, and as a [00:51:30] reprisal, they stopped people in the, um, in the city, in town, and picked out, selected half a dozen, blah, blah, blah, men, women, children, anybody, they stood there, and all the other people, and she happened to be one of them, they made them stand and watch while they machine gunned these innocent people, and then they made her walk. Through the blood, over the bodies. And that's what it reminded her of. So these things sometimes would come crashing back, but, um, she, [00:52:00] I think she was a very strong woman. Liked to dominate a wee bit, yes, but very strong. She would never have survived. Um, she didn't, but that's the reason she left the Netherlands was because she, she said she couldn't face up to it again. Any of that sort of thing. She just couldn't and but what she had to do to get out of that prison. I don't know I don't didn't want to know and She didn't she didn't tell me but it [00:52:30] had us Psychological I'm not sure yes. Yes things did happen But, um, I know physically, she always complained to me that she had something inside her that was wrong. Uh, she said, oh, it's some sort of a stomach boil internal or something or other. But that could have been the cancer because it doesn't just suddenly start. And she did die of cancer eventually. But, uh, at 49. But, um, and you say, the atrocities, how could [00:53:00] this happen? It's still happening. It is still happening. We don't learn. I remember them. You see, at my age, I can remember the war. I was, how old was I, nine when it started, fifteen when it ended. And I remember seeing the newsreels about it. And I had, um, uh, a, an uncle of mine who was in the air, uh, army and he was part of the, um, part of the people that opened up the doors of the... death chambers, and he told [00:53:30] us about it. And there are people going around now saying it was a hoax, it's just rubbish. And, um, I've, I have many Jewish friends, I met them in Melbourne, that were children, and they still had the tattoos on their arms, the numbers, they were thrown into concentration camps, and only, they would be the only one that survived, out of their whole family. I try, who knows, I don't, I don't understand it. It was just Jews, it was gypsies and gays, so you'd be had it. I'd had it [00:54:00] because I have a Jewish, uh, gayish, uh, gypsy ancestors of mine, going way back. And my great grandfather was Jewish, and I'm a lesbian, so I wouldn't have had much of a chance. But why? I don't, I don't know, I don't know. Um, Rit talked about it, when she did say something. She, she had no answers. And I, I, um, I taught, I, I, I'm a trained potter, sculptor as well, and I, I taught pottery [00:54:30] and sculpture in Melbourne when I ran out of music work. And one of my students was the most beautiful woman. She was Jewish. Dina, her name was. And she was sixteen when the Nazis occupied the country. The little village in Poland. And she and her whole family were thrown into Auschwitz death camp. And she was the only one that survived out of her whole family. And I met her in Melbourne. Uh, she immigrated after she'd married. And, uh, she became one of my pottery [00:55:00] students. And she was the most gentle soul I have ever met. Every Christmas, this little Jewish lady would hand me a Christmas card with a 20 note in it. That, that got me. You know, that was a beautiful thing to do. And, I used to go around to their place for, for, for dinner. And she, she said to me once, You know, Coral, I don't hate them. I don't hate what they do. But I'm so frightened. And I fancy going through all that and [00:55:30] not finning some sort of a, There's this, um, Oh, I don't know. I don't know. I ever learn? I don't think we ever will learn. It's um, I think the trouble with being human, I think we have both, all of us have a dark side as well as a a light side, and sometimes that, that bad dark side takes over, I think. I don't know. I don't know. I don't really know. [00:56:00] Oh dear, darling. But looking at the bright side, because you must both realise that you're inspirational to a whole lot of people. We are going through a beautiful love affair. I mean, it's a real 100 percent love affair. Apart from being married. Isn't it, darling? It is, it is. Yeah. I mean, you're a witness that you're never too old to get married. Yes. [00:56:30] Yeah. Yes, I am. Yes, I am. And so am I, really, though. You know, I'm only 78, so I'm a baby, but actually I think mentally we're about the same. Mentally we are about the same, yeah, yeah. About 16? At times. But I think we, we, we, we laugh a lot. And, yeah, we, we have, do have differences, but it's not really differences, because we have misunderstandings, we have misunderstandings, and then we cry and [00:57:00] think, why do we, why is this? This is ridiculous, and we've both come to the conclusion it's because we love each other so much and so deeply that we're easily hurt. And, um, uh, and that is, yeah, so, I don't know. We're both sookies anyway. Well, we're both such shooks. But Sylvia loves my music, which is very important to me because that's all I've ever done really. [00:57:30] And um, it was a couple of nights ago, I was sitting at home and, oh, you were out at your writing group. Oh, right. Yeah, at your writing group, that's right. And um, uh, Sylvia came, Sylvia came rushing out, it was about quarter to nine. You came rushing in, took my hand, said, come, come, you must come, went out into the car. I said, where are we going? She said, down to the beach. It was the most glorious sunset. She wanted to share the sunset with me. [00:58:00] And this is what we like to do, we like to share all this beauty. The sunset and the birds and, and, and all these beautiful, there's so much beauty around. This is one of the things that I fell in love with you about. We, we used to meet, um, Every day, at the beach, there's a little picnic table at the bottom of Beach Road. And watch the sunset. And... Cole would really see it. You know, some people say, oh yes, that's nice, but [00:58:30] Cole would sit there watching it and, and I loved doing that too, and looking at the changing colors and the clouds and the birds coming and going. And it was, it was really special time, wasn't it? Yeah, it was. Yeah. Well, it still is really. Yes, yes, yes. It still is. No, we, we don't see the sunset from here as well. But, there's lots of times we go down and [00:59:00] look at them. Well, with, but, uh, to have, to be with somebody that understands how you feel about things like sunsets and the Song of the Tui and, and, and just beauty, beautiful things. And, uh, A little puppy dog or a little kitten. But, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's, uh, it's, a lot of, a lot of people... They call you bit soppy. I've had, I've been called that. Um, and also with the [00:59:30] music, when I play music, uh, now my, my music has, has changed a little bit because I play it for my wife. If she's in the audience, I'm, I'm, I'm giving her my guts, my heart, my soul, my everything in my music to her. And, uh, and, and she knows it. I also have to take my cap off and show that to her, but, uh, So that's it, we're, we're very lucky. Um, our [01:00:00] ex mayor, whose name was Guru, Uh, he was, he's an Indian, he was a lovely man, and last time I saw him, We talked and I said, yes, I, I, I came back home just to live a reclusive life, not have anything to do with women anymore. And he said, ah, you were meant to come home just to meet Sylvia. Perhaps he was right. Perhaps that was it. And if, if people feel a little inspired by that, that's, that's lovely. Then I was going to say we [01:00:30] served our purpose. We haven't really. Our purpose is to be together. I think so. Yeah, it is. And forever. We, we talk often about, we say, I don't know how many times during the day, I love you. Um, I never get tired of saying it, I never get tired of hearing it. And um, it's, uh, I don't know, it's something I haven't felt before. It's, this, this love is quite, quite different darling, isn't it? It does. Yeah. It's great. It's [01:01:00] great. It's great. She's got kids and grandchildren. My God, I'm a step grandmother. Ha Yeah, that's right. I have a step grandson who's five? Six. Six. Toby. He thinks I'm his grand too. Goodness me. We started the interview with, uh, each of you introducing each other, and I thought maybe to end the interview, [01:01:30] um, could you make a wish for the other person? For the other person? Yeah. You do it first then. Yes, I would, I would wish that my wife never had any pain, physical pain. Oh, darling. No, that's true. I don't, she does have it. And I, I, I'd wish I could take it from her, which I would [01:02:00] happily do. And, uh, I just wish that she could always feel joy and happiness for what we have done. And when we lie together. And. When our naked bodies touch, it is something so special and so beautiful that I've not experienced before. Sex, yes, but not this. Not, not the love that goes with it, and the love [01:02:30] afterwards that... I, I just wish, I want her to go on feeling that. I know she will, but the biggest wish is that she, she would never have any pain anymore. I don't want... Don't cry, darling. Oh, darling. Well, I wish for you... To go on loving you. I wish we can keep going for a few more years. Yes, I hope we can go, but we don't [01:03:00] know. We really don't know. I mean, um... Also, I wish we'd just love every day as though... We don't know, you know, that we evaluate every day together.

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ATL REF: OHDL-004691
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093081
TITLE: Launch of Letters to Lilburn
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Anna Cahill; Margaret Nielsen; Peter Walls; Piera McArthur; Sonia Cahill; Sophie Thorn; Stuart MacDiarmid
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1920s; 1940s; 2020s; Alexander Turnbull Library; Anna Cahill; Douglas Lilburn; Douglas Lilburn (former house); Douglas MacDiarmid; Letters to Lilburn (book); MacDiarmid Arts Trust; Margaret Nielsen; Peter Walls; Piera McArthur; Sonia Cahill; Sophie Thorn; Stuart MacDiarmid
DATE: 14 November 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: Milk and Honey Cafe, 21 Kelburn Parade, Kelburn, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the book launch of Letters to Lilburn, held at the Milk and Honey Cafe, Victoria University of Wellington on 14 November 2022. A special thank you to the organisers for allowing the event to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: October 2023
TEXT: Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa, ko Sophie Thorne, tōku ingoa. Um, I'm so pleased to be welcoming you all here to Milk and Honey. Today, at this book launch, um, I look after the Victoria University Art Collection as the curator collections at the Adam Art Gallery. Um, and I have had years of communication with Anna, and I've never met her in person until today, so it's so exciting. [00:00:30] So exciting to be here, and to be surrounded by these five works from the Ngā Puhi Puhi o Te Herenga Waka art collection. I'd like to pass over to Sonia Cahill. Hello and welcome. My name is Sonia Cahill. I am Anna's daughter and Douglas great niece. So, welcome today. We've got a couple of people in the audience that I'd like to acknowledge. Firstly, Eric Soulier, Councillor [00:01:00] of the Cultural and Scientific Embassy of France in New Zealand. Adrian Macy and Sarah Dennis, former New Zealand Ambassadors to France. Margaret Nielsen, pianist, former music lecturer at Victoria University and champion of Douglas Lilburn's music, Professor Peter Walls, conductor, musicologist, arts and music consultant, Gareth Watkins and Roger Smith of Pride New Zealand, who are audio recording [00:01:30] this event for their website and archives, Chris CK, the chief librarian of the Alexander Turnbull Library, the National Library of New Zealand. And to absent friends and family here in spirit, including Douglas's beloved life partner, Patrick, in Paris, and French art historian, Dr. Nellie Fanet. To the three generations of my family here today, my mother, Anna Cahill, my sister, Rebecca, my daughters, Asha and Elise, my mother's [00:02:00] cousin, Stuart McDiamond, and his wife, Helen. So welcome, friends, old and new. Together with Rebecca and my mother Anna, we created the MacDiamond Arts Trust in 2016, a registered charity wholly responsible for managing Douglas creative interests to protect and preserve the integrity of his work. This afternoon has a dual purpose. Today, the 14th of [00:02:30] November, marks 100 years since Douglas birth in Taihape in 1922. It's also essentially the last hurrah to the much loved elder of our MacDiamond family, whom we were unable to farewell when he passed away in Paris on the 26th of August in 2020, aged 97. So today is the centenary tribute. And there are few people in this world who knew Douglas as well as fellow New Zealand [00:03:00] painter and dear friend, Pira McArthur. Unfortunately, Pyrrha is unable to be with us today, but she has recorded a splendid message thanks to Gareth and Roger. So please enjoy Pyrrha's tribute to Douglas. This is Pyrrha MacArthur, and, uh, I was privileged indeed to share a good journey with Douglas. He will always be with us in endless ways, and come what [00:03:30] may, we can laugh with him at ridiculous foibles and feel his immense compassion for floundering humanity. I got to know Douglass really well in our last diplomatic postings in Paris in the 70s and 1980s, where we worked together as painters and were involved in endless discussion. Those discussions continued by correspondence until his death. What was he really like? He had a [00:04:00] relentless self control. And he painted the way he felt he must paint when dealing with materials and craftsmanship. He was a perfectionist. He had a wide ranging soul. Dignity, intelligence, and curiosity. He stuck to his guns when it came to things he felt passionate about. He was terrific fun. And deeply sincere. He loved to say, I laugh with you, not at you. In person and in [00:04:30] mind, he was elegant, spare, dapper. I have seen him work in a tiny space, impeccably, in his Montmartre apartment. I think of him as a marvelous educator. He did indeed eke out a living by teaching when times were tough. He looked to discover the hidden potentials rather than impose his own ideas. And he taught us the importance of [00:05:00] rigor in all we do. When I brought up my tendency to paint large with reference to a work of mine called Red Gladioli for the Concert Pianist, he came back with this extraordinary answer. Dearest Piera, I probably belong in one of your paintings. Just imagine, having taken the nose off the grindest of stones up to the [00:05:30] surface in need of reward, finally I got around to opening your 11th of July email, and I have been sitting transfixed, shaking like an old bone jelly in delight at your lady Pianist giving hell to a list. Rhapsody. The crash of the chandelier is imminent, but what needs she care? The very gladioli are blazing like Blake's tiger in the night, and I love it. [00:06:00] Those insane white... High heeled Joan Crawford shoes, which clearly she's not quite yet used to, are a triumph and have turned me into a fetishist, surely. For pity's sake, don't go small until you're forced to. There's nothing wrong with you, or the fact that you can paint everyone into a hocked cat. From the young New Zealand painter teaching at the Lycée Henri IV in Paris, [00:06:30] to this immensely gifted individual acting like a leaven in our thought processes, what a huge and admirable step with lasting impact on us all. Voilà. C'est fini. So a special thank you to Gareth and Roger for capturing that recording of Pira, um, over the weekend. That's beautiful. So today, this centenary occasion [00:07:00] is both a collaborative art trail through New Zealand and the launch of a new book as a companion to Douglas 2018 biography, Colours of a Life. And we are launching Letters to Lil Burn, Douglas McDiarmid's conversations from the heart today. Letters to Lilburn honours one of Douglas passions, his love of words and language, and his huge correspondence with many people, both in New Zealand and overseas. [00:07:30] We also have with us today a recording of a wonderful woman who knew both Douglas Lilburn and Douglas MacDiamond well as friend to both and Victoria University music students, music school colleague of Lilburn, as well as the preferred interpreter of his piano compositions. I'd like to welcome Margaret Nielsen here today and we're going to listen to a recording as well. Please enjoy. Douglas Lilburn was a colleague [00:08:00] of mine for many years at the university in what in those days was the music department, as you may recall. And, um, he was almost like a shadow in the doorway because he was so backward at coming forward. He never came and said, I'm Douglas Lilburn, not Douglas. And in those days there wasn't much New Zealand music being performed. There was a kind of... Just, it wasn't [00:08:30] considered to be very important or very interesting. So, the only thing I could think of doing was to play some of it myself. How about Douglas MacDiamond? How did you first meet him? Well, it was through my late husband and Farquhar as well, David and Radia. Um, and they had quite a big art collection, a painting collection, including... A number of big diamonds, mainly watercolours. How about the two Douglasses? How did they get on [00:09:00] together? Oh, well, it depended what the weather was like a little bit, yes. They, they, I think they had had a period of very close together, and they probably had a relationship or two, and for a while anyway, but I'm not sure for how long. But then they often got very shirty with each other. But, uh, anyway, it was, it was an interesting time, and I learned a lot from them, as well. And, [00:09:30] and, and I did get a lot of laughs. And they could laugh at themselves, too. Uh, Douglas Lilburn probably less likely to, whereas MacDiamond, um, he just shook his head and kind of, you know, had a good, good guffaw or two. And, uh, he, I liked him very much. He had warmth and, um, wit, and I just feel delighted I was around [00:10:00] to have an experience of learning these things about them. Thank you, Margaret, for sharing your experiences with us. That's beautiful. So shortly we will raise a toast to Douglas. So if you need to top your glasses up, please feel free to grab another drink from the bar. Um, and while we do that, I'd like to invite Professor Peter Walls to say a few words about Douglas Lilburn and this compilation of MacDiamond letters and poems. Please welcome [00:10:30] Professor Walls. Kia ora tatou. I'm not really quite sure what my qualifications are to speak here at this book launch. I'm really here as Margaret Nielsen's chauffeur. And of course, Margaret gets honourable mention in the volume, as indeed she should. In June 1990, Douglas Lilburn sent Douglas McDiarmid a [00:11:00] cassette of his piano music. I'm going to just refer to them as Lilburn and McDiarmid from now on because it's... Just, it's not coldness, it's just, to avoid confusion. Anyway, so, uh, Lilburn sent McDiarmid a cassette of piano music, and McDiarmid's response was, You couldn't have done anything to bring greater pleasure. Further, I'd forgotten what a pianist Margaret N. is. She's [00:11:30] into their utter simplicity. their longing, their vigor, their spiritual size, as well as allowing through something different from what I carried away from your own hands on which eternal blessing be. So, um, I too, Uh, share that enthusiasm for Margaret's playing, say that, as a colleague of mine at the School of Music, she was, uh, so influential and, and such an, uh, an important person in my own life, you know, as a, [00:12:00] uh, first of all, a musical inspiration, but then as a fighter for what the school needed, and also as a, as a kind of link to Douglas. I'd been there as a student when Douglas was on the, uh, staff, and when I came back to join the staff in 1978, um, Douglas was a colleague for a time, uh, and then eventually he put me onto the Music Advisory Committee of the Lilburn Trust, which Margaret was already a member [00:12:30] of. Um, and, uh, I'd like to acknowledge, too, that we've got Chris Sekay, who's the chair of the Music Advisory Committee, and also Roger Smith, who's one of my colleagues on that. So, uh, Margaret would also from time to time once we were, once Douglas retired, you know, she'd say to me, typically on a Friday afternoon, come on, we better go and see Douglas. And we'd go up to 22 Ascot Street and spend a couple of hours with him drinking wine and [00:13:00] talking. And, um, I got to know Douglas through that, um, Quite a lot better, I guess. I was actually very eager to read Letters to Lilburn, having greatly enjoyed Anna's biography of Douglas MacDiabard, The Colors of a Life. In fact, what happened here was that the composer Ross Harris, um, urged it on me, and he said, you know, he said, there's quite a lot about our Douglas here that he, Ross, hadn't really known. And of course, when I [00:13:30] read the biography, Um, that was also true for me. It was just so interesting, but also, um, just to open up for me what a huge range there was in Douglas MacDiarmid's paintings, which I mostly knew through the, um, I most, is that working? Yep. So I mostly knew it through the paintings in Douglas's own house, of course. Um, Lilburn acted as a kind of agent for McDiarmid, and a generous [00:14:00] agent too, because again and again in the letters we find McDiarmid urging Lilburn to take one out of a batch of paintings that was up for sale, um, to take a painting in lieu of commission, and Douglas never, Lilburn, never seems to have acted on that because Next letter would be the same thing, please take one of these. At one point, McDiarmid asked, this is before he'd seen the house I think, but he asked whether the garden shed at 22 [00:14:30] Ascot Street would be a suitable place to store some oil paintings. Those of us who know that shed know it's a much more appropriate place to store 20 year old bottles of beer and firewood. Um, So, it's been obvious to anyone involved with the Lilburn Trust that Lilburn had a shrewd sense of investment priorities worthy of his Scottish heritage. So in 1971, we see him advising McDiarmid on his own, you know, [00:15:00] financial affairs back in New Zealand. Um, and there's a wonderful letter from McDiarmid thanking Lilburn for, for helping him with this. And he says, What an amazing monument of organization you turn out to be. But I mean amazing. A very full letter of details of these various money investments, followed by a chaser, which surely covers every possible eventuality, except one, a Spanish proverb, I'm not sure whether I should continue with this, but a Spanish proverb [00:15:30] actually quoted by Cervantes. Green figs and servant girls mature through pinching. With all these maturity dates, you quote, my daft brain went straight on to that. Very many thanks for looking after this business a thousand percent better than I ever could. My maturity date, in fact, is a moot point. So, actually, that sense of humor comes through as, actually, we've already heard from Piera McArthur in, in the letters. [00:16:00] Um, lovers of McDiarmid's paintings and Lilburn's music will appreciate greatly, I think, some of the more poetic passages, and indeed, Poems, in the letters, where MacDiarmid comments on landscape in a way that makes so much sense of Lilburn's own mode of expression. To take just one of many examples from 1949, a year when, uh, MacDiarmid returned to New Zealand. He writes, Lovely to hear your [00:16:30] sonata again last week, or whenever it was. Something so movingly indigenous comes from it, that while I hold it intact in my head, I even know how to paint. And lose for that time too, the insufferable thirsts. Find rather to my surprise, a tangible emotion, at the sight of those gashed arongarongas and hot clear light over the harbour from here. Finding this strong emotional response to landscape reflected in music is absolutely [00:17:00] in line with what, the way Lilburn felt. I remember as a student, Bruce Greenfield and I learning what we thought of as his violin sonata, and when we felt it was ready, we asked Lilburn to come and listen. And his first comment, I remember, you know, when we played it, and the first thing he said, pointing to the opening page of the sonata was, you've seen the mountains in the South Island. And he took it from there. I have to say, [00:17:30] I'd say, what we know of as the, the uh, Lilburn Sonata, Margaret was very keen that We get out the two earlier sonatas, which Douglas had almost suppressed, so she and I learned one of those. And again, when the time came, actually, for him to audition his own piece, like, would we be allowed to play it, he came up to Margaret's house in Karori and we played it for him. And on that occasion, I don't remember him talking about the mountains so much, Margaret, [00:18:00] but he said, we've got to cut the last page, it goes on a bit long, so he made it. An edit with a red pencil right there. Anyway, um, but that, that kind of sense of connection between this very strong emotional connection between the landscape and what Lilburn was doing and what McDiarmid is doing is something that comes through very, very strongly. And as a commentary on art and music. Letters to Lilburn is absolutely fascinating. But mostly, [00:18:30] um, it is absorbing as a love story. One that lasted from the two Douglas first encounter in 1944, through to the composer's death. In fact, there's a letter written exactly 12 months before Lilburn died, after he'd heard the pianist Mary Gow playing at the New Zealand Embassy in Paris. And that one reads, When, as for us, confirmation of life and love comes finally from pretty well every side, expression of grateful wonder can be [00:19:00] exchanged most happily. After all these years, to be given these lilburn sounds that never leave me, like water splashing down rock pools on the first morning. Beautiful letter. Letters to Lilburn is like an epistolary novel in which we have to infer the other side of the conversation all the time. McDiarmid writes beautifully, There are moments of total exhilaration in their relationship, but on the whole these are [00:19:30] outnumbered by passages of melancholy and yearning. Lilburn clearly found it hard to commit to this relationship, and this This also seems to have been the case in his relationship, um, with Rita Angus, and in fact others. It's just something about Lilburn's own character and personality, I suppose. So having MacDiarmid in France on the other side of the world, in a way seemed to allow Lilburn to become more uncomplicatedly loving. [00:20:00] And there are some beautiful letters we're on when they're... On the opposite side of the world. But McDiarmid's proximity on visits home always seem to complicate things. Sometimes the frustration for McDiarmid boils over. In June 1945 he exclaims, What in God's name do you think I am? Something with an electric switch. And then there's a letter later in the same year with an embedded poem. And part of the [00:20:30] poem goes like this. Oh living so, I feared to lose in death or life your total you, not knowing that I could not choose to have or hold, to love or cherish anything but what was left when you had shaken free. Um, so look, I'm just going to encourage you all to explore these letters for yourselves. Thank you Anna for this beautiful book, uh, and congratulations. [00:21:00] Okay, now it gives me great pleasure to introduce my mother, Anna Cahill, who is Douglas's biographer and also the, the compiler of Letters to Lilburn to talk about this new compilation and how it came to be. Please welcome Anna. [00:21:30] Thank you very much for coming along tonight. Um, to this afternoon. Um, in some respects I feel that there's little more to say in that, um, Douglass words and Douglass paintings do speak for themselves. Um, however, I'll give you a little bit of background. Um, when I was writing and researching Douglass's biography, I came to realize that... My job as biographer was not [00:22:00] over. Um, when I agreed to write the book, um, Douglas had always wanted his story told. Um, it was a somewhat reckless decision and it was a big hurry to try and, try and get this book properly researched, properly written, properly published before he died. He was 93 when we made that choice. So, um, it had to be done in somewhat of a hurry. Um, In the course of, of, of [00:22:30] researching the book, after I'd spoken to Douglas at length in Paris, I came to understand that there were a lot of gaps in his story. Douglas doesn't do dates, he didn't do numbers, he didn't care at all about money, um, he, uh, or chronologies. So, The letters that he left in the, um, in the Alexander Turnbull Library, that wonderful archive there, was actually my salvation in piecing together Douglas story, and I'm [00:23:00] enormously grateful to the Alexander Turnbull Library for having that resource, without which I could not have written the book. Um, I, I realised that Douglas wrote to lots of people. He wrote to me as a child. Um, he wrote to my father very dutifully, he wrote to his parents less dutifully, but um, but not necessarily completely honestly and openly. The most, the most fulsome [00:23:30] set of letters, um, those with the most raw emotions, those with the most detail of how he really was feeling, how he really was faring. Um, were in those letters to Douglas Lilburn. They wrote to one another between 1944 and 2001. So a long, long period of time. A very long conversation. When I first decided that perhaps for Douglas um, 100th birthday, it would [00:24:00] be nice to focus on his, on his words, his other great passion. Um, uh, he had three great passions. Painting, music, and language. I decided that, that perhaps this, this wonderful set of letters would be the way to go. Um, originally I thought it would be terrific to, to do both sides of the story and have the narrative from both sides. But, um, unfortunately, Lil Byrne's handwriting is like cat scratchings. [00:24:30] Uh, it is honestly, it is so hard to read that I would have needed another ten years to try and make head nor tail of it. So I decided I would, I would stick to my Douglas, um, and create the narrative there. And in fact, the narrative flows on. Very rarely have I had to put a sentence or so in just to, just to make the context, um, flow a little better. So, um, all the content was there. Um, at the same time, we decided we'd do something [00:25:00] for Douglas that was, um, visual as well. So in addition to the book, We have, um, we have the, the MacDiarmid Centenary Art Trail. And, um, about 25 very generous, uh, public collections in New Zealand have, have, have chosen to hang some or all of their paintings, um, from Dunedin to Auckland during November to, as a tribute to Douglas. [00:25:30] Um, and I'm, I'm deeply grateful to those people too, because I, um, I could not have, I could not have created that of my own accord. Um, the, their generosity and their, um, eagerness to help and their enthusiasm for Douglas, um, is the reason that this art trail, um, has been, has, is as successful as it is. And I hope that the map that's been created from, from, for the art trail. Is not only a reference for now, but actually gives people [00:26:00] a, um, a, uh, a longer reference to where Douglas work can be found in public collections throughout the country. I've probably, uh, said enough about, um, how this came to be. Um, I thought I might just finish by, um, reading one more extract. And, uh, and I'm delighted by the extracts that you've chosen. Uh, and how well they fit in. So this is the 4th of [00:26:30] December, 1965. Mac Diamond is writing to Lilburn. Don't blush please, but you represent and assure in some simple daily way the survival of what can be only described as an ideal. A force incredibly robust in one sense and painfully finely balanced in another. I don't need to write pages about it. Nor must I even inquire whether anything in your daily necessity [00:27:00] is nourished by this strange product of contact and distance and time. I can only hope that something does work from it for you, and say that I should be infinitely the worse and poorer without it, and can count on being appalled at anything understood as menacing to it. Nothing that Ariel ever sang about could be richer or stranger, so there you are. Um, you are quite right when you say that often the relationship [00:27:30] between the two douglasses was, um, on a more even keel in correspondence than it was in person. Um, such was the times, such was the personalities, and I thank you all very much for coming today and I hope you'll enjoy reading the book. Thank you. I just wanted to, um, also, um, have. Say a few [00:28:00] words about the paintings here. As you can see, Douglas painted in many different, many different ways. Um, if you, if he was to ask what style he had, he would say, well, I don't think I have a style. I have no style at all, which wasn't true of course. He just had a diversity of style. Um, and this is a lovely little collection of paintings that represent lots of little, little aspects of Douglas. Um, still life. Um, a major, a [00:28:30] major, um, preoccupation on the human condition, part of the Creatures in Series, uh, um, series. And, uh, that was inspired by Piha, Surfers at Piha Beach, where his parents had a holiday place. In fact, they bought the holiday cottage in 1950 in the hopes of grounding Douglas in this beautiful place and that he would stay in New Zealand. That didn't work, but some wonderful A wonderful series of work did come out of it and he painted Piha [00:29:00] quite a number of times. Um, this is, this is Douglas representing, representing his travels. Douglas came and went from New Zealand quite regularly. Um, in the early days he always went by, um, by ship. He preferred to go by cargo ship. Um, so he ended up in lots of places along the way. Um, all sorts of countries, having all sorts of experiences. Later in life, when he was flying by plane, he would never fly more than [00:29:30] five or six hours, if he could get away with it, in one, in one, um, one flight. Because he was a tall man. He got, it was very uncomfortable to be in a plane for any length of time. So this is, this is, um, this is one of the atolls in, um, in the Pacific. I think it's Moria. And he landed there for quite a number of hours while they were refueling to go on to the next place. A bit further around the corner there is another painting, [00:30:00] which is a, um, which is a landscape, um, in the Avignon. Um, Douglas loved his landscape painting, even when it was deeply unpopular, he still painted landscapes because they spoke to him, and that's what it was about. This painting here, on the wall over here, this lovely luscious painting of, um, um, bathers gambling on the beach. This was one of Lilburn's favourite paintings. And in the book we've chosen to include just two [00:30:30] photographs. Here is Douglas with his painting. Um, I'd actually never seen it in colour on the wall before, so this was a very exciting occasion for me to actually see these paintings in real life. Um, And as you look on, look on the other side, here is Lilburn with the same painting in his living room. That painting lives on that living room wall to this day. Um, it is part of the, um, the, um, 22 Ascot, [00:31:00] 27, 22 Ascot Terrace House that is now run by the Lilburn Trust, uh, as a, uh, residence for visiting musicians. So this painting, That only came off the wall at one stage when, when Lilburn was divesting himself of things. And he thought perhaps it would be better in a, in a, in a collection. He, um, he offered it to the university here. And they were a bit slow to pick it up. And, um, Lilburn wasn't at all happy about the [00:31:30] replacement painting he'd put on the wall. So he put the painting back up on the wall and said that it would remain there till the, till the end of his days. Because that was where it belonged. Thanks mum. I'd now like to invite Stuart McDiamond up the front and Stuart's going to deliver a toast to Douglas. [00:32:00] Thank you Sonia. Good afternoon, or evening. Um, I... I grew up knowing that I had a cousin who was an artist, but my father was very disparaging of Douglas work. So, uh, um, I knew that I had a cousin who lived in Paris who painted rubbishy paintings. [00:32:30] My, I've had a very interesting career, totally, totally different from the work of Douglas, but It's happened that, um, I began to go to Paris for work frequently. The, in Paris, the headquarters of the World Organization for Animal Health, the OIE. And I realized, I have this opportunity and I'm coming here. [00:33:00] Initially it was twice a year, but then it got, it was two to four times a year until I retired. And I thought, I've got a cousin I should try and meet him, because I used to go for meetings two weeks at a time, two weeks in February and two weeks in September, and although the work in the week was intense, there was always the weekends, which were downtime when you're by yourself and you've seen stuff. So [00:33:30] anyway, I found out, I found his address and I wrote to him. On paper, because it was before the days of email. And, we, I received an invitation to go round to his place one evening and have dinner and meet him. So, I set off from my hotel and I was thinking, I know at home when I go to somebody's place for dinner, I take something with me. I take a, you know, a bottle of wine, so. [00:34:00] I don't, I'm not a wine person really, um, I've, and I never took any notice of French wines because I never wanted to invest the effort into learning about stuff that, you know, was, anyway. I figured that if you buy on price you'll be alright. And because I like red wine, um, I went into a liquor shop on the... [00:34:30] way walking to Douglas's place, and I started looking at the wines, looking at the top shelf, looking for the expensive stuff. And my eyes strayed into Scotch whiskey. I like Scotch, and one of the things I liked about going to France is that Scotch is relatively cheap compared to here. After the Japanese, [00:35:00] the French are the biggest consumers of Scotch whisky. Um, the average Frenchman drinks as much Scotch in a month as he drinks brandy in a year. So, um, there you go, there's a factoid. Anyway, I looked and there was a bottle. It was a nice looking bottle, but it came in a polished wooden box with a little brass hook. To keep it shut, and I thought, oh, that'll do. [00:35:30] And so I bought it, and um, turned up at my cousin's place, and we introduced each other, and I presented Douglas with this polished wooden box, which he opened, and inside was a bottle of Talisker whisky. Which, Talisker turns out it's his favourite whisky, and at one stage, his mother's family used to own the distillery. So, [00:36:00] every time I visited Douglas, we would have, I would have two or three Talisker whiskies, and Douglas, even right to the end where he was not supposed to drink, would have a teaspoonful. This isn't quite... Talisker Whiskey, but I want to, I want to propose a toast to, I think the, uh, one of my favourite [00:36:30] male relatives who, uh, in my affections, uh, certainly took the place of my father. So, I want to drink to Douglas. Thank you. Thank you very much, Stuart. So, in closing, on behalf of the MacDiamonds Arts Trust, there's [00:37:00] a couple of people we'd really love to thank today. Firstly, to Victoria University for co hosting this anniversary occasion and displaying their MacDiamonds paintings here in the Milk and Honey Café throughout November as part of the Centenary Art Trail. Sophie, if you'd like to come forward, um... And please accept a copy of the book MacDiamond by Dr. Nellie Fennay for your art resource library. And thank you very much for your [00:37:30] assistance with the, the timing and the trail. Um, next to the Alexander Turnbull Library for allowing extracts from Douglas letters and poems from their archives to be reproduced. Without that repository of correspondence there would have been no book. Chris, please accept a copy of Letters to Lilburn for the library. [00:38:00] A big thank you also to another essential member of the MacDiamonds Arts Trust. Please put your hands together for Margot Corhonen, who has designed and produced our new website and also the art. Um, trail map, which has taken Douglas creative legacy to new [00:38:30] audiences. Thank you so much, Margot. So thank you all for joining us this afternoon, and for your friendship, and for supporting the Centenary Art Trail and Letters to Lilburn. Mum will be around for the next half of an hour or so, signing books if you'd like your copies signed. In addition to Letters to Lilburn, we've got a couple of copies of the biography Colours of a Life and the art history book MacDiamond with us. Please take your [00:39:00] time to enjoy these beautiful artworks as well. We'll be sharing some photos from tonight on Facebook and Instagram, so search for Douglas MacDiamond if you're interested in seeing those. And if you happen to be in Auckland on Wednesday or Friday this week, we have events at Takapuna Library and Old Government House, so let me know if you need details of those. As Douglas would say, all great good to you. Thank you for joining us.

IRN: 3541
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/sam_orchard_new_zealand_cartoons_and_comics_archive.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004687
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093077
TITLE: Sam Orchard - New Zealand Cartoon and Comics Archive
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Sam Orchard
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; 2020s; Alexander Turnbull Library; Alison Bechdel; Broadsheet (magazine); COVID-19 (coronavirus); COVID-19 Omicron variant; COVID-19 face mask; COVID-19 lockdown; COVID-19 vaccination; Christchurch terror attack (2019); Harpies and heroines (book); Helen Courtney; Lore Olympus (book); National Library of New Zealand; Rachel Smythe; Rita Angus; Ruby Jones; Sam Orchard; Siouxie Wiles; Three Words: An Anthology of Aotearoa / NZ Women's Comics (book); Toby Morris; Valerie Love; artist; arts; cartoons; comics; community archive; digital publishing; feminism; gay; graphic novels; homophobia; language; lesbian; lesbian feminism; misogyny; newspapers; outsider; outsider art; propaganda; publishing; queer; racism; research; self publish; stereotypes; subtext; subversion; transgender; transphobia; unpublished material; writing; zines
DATE: 21 January 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: Alexander Turnbull Library, 70 Molesworth Street, Thorndon, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Sam Orchard, Assistant Curator Cartoons and Comics at the Alexander Turnbull Library, talks about the history of the New Zealand Cartoons and Comics Archive and how rainbow communities are represented.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So my name is Sam Orchard, and I am the assistant curator for cartoons and comics at the Alexander Turnbull Library. We're currently in the room of the Alexander Turnbull Library, and we we've got a long table that I've got out a few cartoons and comics to show you what is the history of the, um collection? So the New Zealand cartoons and Comics archive is quite an interesting one. It started in April 1st, 1992. April Fool's Day, which is? It's having [00:00:30] its 30th birthday this year. It started as a community archive, much like Gans did, and like, kind of joined into the Alexander Turnbull Library. And a couple of years ago it was fully merged into Alexander Turnbull. And last year, no, no. What year are we in? In 2019? Um, because of a series of events, the kind of community [00:01:00] Guardians group decided to step down, and they the Alexander Turnbull took that opportunity to say, Hey, let's examine the scope of the cartoon archive because it started as just a New Zealand cartoons archive as opposed to cartoons and comics. And at that point they said, Hey, things are changing within editorial cartoon landscape newspapers are shrinking, and there's not as many cartoons coming through our workflow. So why don't [00:01:30] we expand the scope to include comics as well? And you might ask, What's what does that mean? So originally we were collecting cartoons, and by this we mean editorial cartoons and newspapers. They're the kind of single panel things you see that are very topical. On a day to day basis that happened in newspapers so long, long time ago, we used to have very provincial. A lot of provincial newspapers and cartoonists were employed [00:02:00] by each separate newspaper to kind of comment on events of the day and over time, newspapers have kind of merged into different media conglomerates. So there's lots of, uh, the same company might own quite a lot of newspapers, so a newspaper circulation has gone down and we have lots of digital newspapers now, So the kind of the career prospects for an editorial cartoonist [00:02:30] have kind of shrunk. And the other thing is that editorial cartoonists have a really long life life span in terms of jobs, which is really lucky for a cartoonist. Lots of cartoonists will kind of yeah, have quite a long career working into their seventies eighties, because a lot of us who do cartoons and comics are passionate about it, and we just do it because we need to. So there has. There was a kind of narrowing of editorial cartoons, [00:03:00] and meanwhile, there's this explosion of comic artists within New Zealand, and a lot of the comic artists were kind of telling a whole bunch of different and new stories and weren't being captured by any sort of archives because they kind of don't fit in with their books in the traditional sense. And they don't kind of fit with art in the traditional sense. So there was a gap in the market in terms of no one, really archiving [00:03:30] a whole lot of stories that were coming through. So that was the impetus for expanding this collection. And when they expanded the scope of the collection, they said, Hey, it's probably time for us to have a curator and that's when my role was created and I just happened to be looking for a job and I love community and I love cartoons and comics. And so it was the perfect opportunity to apply for a regular job because I've been freelancing and doing cartoons for a long time. And thankfully they said yes. And [00:04:00] so here we are. So you are the first curator? Yes, in the new. In the new iteration of this archive, I'm the first New Zealand cartoons and comics archive curator. Congratulations. How does that feel? It's very exciting. It's like a dream job that I, you know, it's a job that didn't exist a couple of years ago, and I didn't know that I was employable in terms of my unique set of skills. But here we are. I know a lot about [00:04:30] cartoons and comics, and I'm really passionate about cartoon and comic community, and the the way that the has expanded particularly falls into my areas of interest and expertise. So, yeah, it's very exciting. So what does your day to day look like? So it's a lot of learning, So I was employed almost a year ago into this position, and I haven't come from a library's background. So it's a lot of learning about information management situations and [00:05:00] conservation practises and just exploring the collection that has over 60,000 cartoons and comics in it. So this is This is a lot to get my head around. So part of it is doing that learning part of it is bringing in new collections. Part of it is answering research requests, so someone might have some research that they're doing where they want to find a particular cartoon. And it's going through those the the the [00:05:30] catalogue and saying, Yes, I think we have that This is the form that we have it and working through those things and then also working out where the gaps in our collection are so we can bring in new material into the collection as well. So what are the things about cartoons and comics and and also graphic novels? Do you do you collect graphic novels? OK, so I think of it as comics, as as an umbrella term in much the same way that queer is right. Um [00:06:00] so it covers a range of things that fall under that umbrella. Comics being something that is partially a mixture of words and graphics that together elevate it to something else entirely, and it can include editorial cartoons and newspapers. It can include comic strips like foot rock flats. It can also include comic books like You Think of Superman or Things Like That. And it can also include Web comics, [00:06:30] zens mini comics, um, auto bio comics, graphic novels, which is a kind of longer form storytelling of comic books. If you think of comic books as small chapters in a story, the graphic novel might be, uh, the collection of the chapters altogether. So with comics, cartoons and graphic novels, what are the unique things that make them important [00:07:00] to collect? What I feel really excited about in terms of cartoons and comics is that they're reflecting our stories and the breadth of our stories because, you know, I think of. I think of cartoons and comics as quite a queer medium in that it is something that is a little bit amorphous and hard to pin down in terms of having a a consistent definition. But it also has something that comes in a variety of formats, like I was talking about before, [00:07:30] and so that means that people can come to it with really different viewpoints and really different stories to tell. It covers fiction. It covers nonfiction. It covers historical events. It cover covers, you know sub subjective material as well as objective material it covers published things that are printed for mass media. And it's also covers things that are self published that are only meant for really small communities as well. Which kind of I think [00:08:00] has the opportunity to reflect the the huge diversity of perspectives and stories that exist within a which is what we're trying to do at the National Library in Alexander Turnbull as well. So think cartoons and comics has something for everyone. See, this is interesting, because when I came here today, I had in my mind that, um, everything was published so it would be published in a newspaper or a zine or whatever, but you were saying [00:08:30] that's not necessarily the case exactly. So cartoons The Cartoons and Comics Archive is an interesting archive in that it covers both published material. So things with an ISBN number that you find in bookshops and things like that magazines. But it also covers people's sketchbooks, little doodles that people have done original artwork, small zines that are only intended for, you know, small audiences, digital comics. So comics and archives [00:09:00] in, um, the Internet. Sorry. Um, Web comics things like that. So it covers a whole range, which is, Yeah, it's exciting. And can you describe the the the the kind of state of, um, creation of comics and cartoons in New Zealand? Um, at the moment it's it's actually in a really exciting and huge growth space at the moment. So one of the cartoonists, one of our one of New Zealand, in fact, a Wellington [00:09:30] based comic artist, is currently making the the world's most Red Web tune comic ever. So this is her. This is Rachel Smith, who creates Laur Olympus. She's been creating that comic for the last couple of years, and it currently has a readership, a regular readership of over 5 million people. So her readership is bigger than the whole population of New Zealand, which is incredible. And New Zealand comic artists [00:10:00] are constantly kind of, you know, shooting above the norm, and we have a really excited and vibrant community. Book publishers are finally kind of coming around to the idea of cartoons and comics as literature and things that they can produce on a map in a mainstream as part of their regular printing catalogue. Um, and I think the Internet has kind of changed things, so that your it it really kind [00:10:30] of expand our audiences and and has the ability to show that there's a larger audience out there for maybe some of the more marginalised or or um, less mainstream published communities like Queer Communities. So I think over the last 10 or 20 years, there's been a huge rise in diversity of comics, which has happened internationally, [00:11:00] and New Zealanders are certainly on that wavelength and bandwagon. So there's heaps of people who are making cartoons and comics in New Zealand at the moment and getting them published in online as well as in mainstream, um, publications. How do you think the kind of rest of the literary kind of ecosystem sees cartoons? And in comics, I think it's, I think it's really in an interesting place. I think it's changing, You know, you have [00:11:30] people like Alison Bechdel who did dykes to watch out for and then kind of broke into into literature, and I mean that in inverted commas, in a way, through her work with fun home and I my mother in a way that people kind of were like, Oh yeah, That's right. Cartoons and comics are literature. They can be taken seriously and she's not the first person to have done that. You know, this has been an ongoing history, but she's certainly played [00:12:00] a role in this in this latest wave of that. And so I think that, you know, that's that's floating through into our writers, festivals and publishers here. So that publishers us are cottoning onto Oh, yes, these these do fit within the canon of our catalogues and they do fit within sort of mainstream book festivals. And, um so we're being included in ways that we haven't [00:12:30] before. I personally like that cartoons and comics are seen as kind of fringy and an outsider art form. I think that lends to the queerness of it and the kind of subversiveness that we can do. But I'm also pleased that we are seen as as more kind of mainstream as well. So it's like both end. Can you talk to me about, um, how comics and cartoons kind of reflect the time that created it for [00:13:00] sure, I So we have 60,000 cartoons in our collection and the viewpoints that are expressed there are pretty can be pretty, um, intense. They There's a lot of offensive material in it in this particular collection, which, you know, I these exist in other collections as well. But someone once said [00:13:30] that cartoons are are a blunt instrument. They're very in your face and can. So there's, you know, there's a lot of racism. There's a lot of misogyny. There's a lot of homophobia transphobia within the collection, and some of that is changing. And some of it isn't. Um, you know, I think that when you're looking at mainstream accountability within newspapers, it's really interesting to see the shift of what's an acceptable joke and [00:14:00] what's not anymore. So looking back into the collection, some of the racism is, is much more apparent. And now it's a little bit dialled down a little bit, Um, in terms of sort of jokes around homophobia and transphobia that seems to have quite markedly shifted. Um, but there there still is an imbalance in terms of a lot of the people who have been employed by mainstream newspapers are white [00:14:30] cisgender heterosexual men. Um, and that represents a particular viewpoint. It might be a fairly diverse viewpoint, but it's still particular, Um, so there's when you're talking about representations of queerness or rainbow things, that's always it's mostly coming from a perspective and that that means for me. I think we need some of the cartoons and [00:15:00] comics that we're bringing in to speak back to that from a community perspective to kind of balance out those perspectives as well. It sounds like quite a a direct barometer of what is kind of publicly acceptable. But then, I guess if you've only got white si cartoonists, you get quite a different view than you and I. You know, I think it's changing, like I recall, um Lewis or played a really integral [00:15:30] part in terms of countering some of the cartoons that Al Nisbet was was producing in terms of representations of beneficiaries Pacific Island and Maori people. And she kind of called him out publicly and said, Hey, this is not acceptable. He no longer is working for a for a newspaper, So there are ways that the public and people in power are speaking back to some of those viewpoints and changing the system, and it's really interesting looking at some of the cartoonists, you know, I said before we. They [00:16:00] have quite long careers. Well, if they're not keeping up with the Times and suddenly their views are are out of step with what's acceptable, they don't no longer will have jobs. So that's quite interesting to watch. Some of the cartoonists in recent years have been called out for some of their perspectives, which I would argue, haven't changed since their career. But the, uh, social acceptability of those viewpoints have changed. So how do you personally cope? Uh, when [00:16:30] you're dealing with a collection that has some a lot of phobias and, um uh, racism in it. And II, I would be going like I mean, do you get angry? Do you get sad? I mean, I have lots of personal feelings about all of these things, but I also in terms of the role of this archive, is to represent the diverse experience of New Zealanders and the diverse perspectives and and stories that we have [00:17:00] to tell and and I actually think it's really important that we do acknowledge and don't hide some of our racism. Some of our transphobia, some of our homophobia I know as someone who has experienced transphobia and homophobia for it to be swept under the carpet and pretended that it hasn't happened is actually quite a traumatising. It's almost as traumatising as having it happen to you in the first place. So that's part of what what I think is important is to collect, to collect that bread and, [00:17:30] um, and to hold it within a balanced perspective. So you, you know, if you do have cartoons that are homophobic and transphobic, you also have the balance of that to kind of say, Well, here's perspectives from within our communities that are speaking to those experiences as well. So you would still collect a homophobic transphobic or or racist cartoon today? Yep. Yeah, I think these are important receipts to have, and they do reflect where we're at [00:18:00] and what is. You know, it's interesting with with watching when cartoons are controversial and and when they're suddenly out of step with the, um, the current society. Those are really important to collect as well as the all of the articles and conversations that happen around that cartoon as well, because I think they tell it a really interesting story that reflects the point in time in which suddenly it goes from Yes, this is [00:18:30] an acceptable joke to make to all. Maybe it's not so acceptable to No, it's definitely not. And this is the line. This is where it happened. And that's an important historical record, I think. Can you, uh, take me through, uh, some of the representations of rainbow communities within, um, the the archive and and and maybe show how it's changing? Sure. Um, so I thought we would start with some of the, um some [00:19:00] of the stuff that we've collected over time, which has mostly been put together, Um, for for a book called Hary and Heroines, which was, um, put together by the cartoon archive when they were doing printed series. They've done, I think, nine books over the over the course of their existence. And one of them is particularly around a cartoon history of women. And so that afforded the archive and opportunity [00:19:30] to collect and examine particularly broadsheet, which was an important feminist magazine. Um and so we have the work here. I'll come show you. So we have some of the original artwork created by Helen Courtney who, um, was a cartoonist for broadsheet over the years, and it's just I love original artwork, and I think it's one of the the beautiful parts of our collection [00:20:00] in front of us. We've got small hand drawn cutouts on various shades of paper and various types of paper. They're all kind of cut out into very small pieces, and it's just as though someone has been doodling on whatever spare paper they have in front of them. And these cartoons have been done by Helen Courtney. And they're a kind of mix of kind of delightful feminist cartoons and [00:20:30] bits and pieces that would have peppered through the Broadsheet magazine. Just they look like they're done in in just black ink. A few of them have been coloured in quite darkly, so maybe she has been using some brush brush ink as well. But these sort of treasures I you can imagine that they might have sat in Helen Courtney's desk or on the floor or peppered through bits of paper and folders, and they had just They're quite delightfully stored by [00:21:00] us in temperature controlled rooms in a place that has like very, very fancy material. And I just love that about cartoons and comics that we have said, Hey, this lesbian feminist cartoonist is really important for us to collect, and we don't mind that her cartoons are clipped out and cut out into small little pieces. We're going to look after them because that's important. Um, we also have a bunch of photocopies from, um, broadsheet that includes [00:21:30] Sharon Alston's cartoons and comics. One of them has Lesbian Nation and a whole lot of lesbians kind of chatting in community, and it's a photocopy. But it sits within the photocopy of the page of what broadsheet looks like, so it's within context as well. So we have both original art as well as, um, photo copies and copies. And I think that lesbian feminist cartoons are really important to our [00:22:00] history and speak to, You know, when we look at editorial cartoons and as I was saying, most of them being then we have these micro publications and indie publications that kind of spoke to the same political issues but would have quite a different perspective, and we'd be talking about different things. So that's part of what I wanted to bring out. So it's interesting. I'm just looking at the dates for these uh, the broadsheets in 1973 and 1975. Is there anything earlier [00:22:30] than, say, the early 19 seventies that, um, directly speaks to, um, kind of Rainbow Communities? There isn't a great deal at the moment, but part of what what the expansion of the Cartoon and Comics archive has meant is that we get to draw up a new collecting plan. And the cartoons and Comics archive sits within the umbrella archive of contemporary voices. And part of that is to reflect the change [00:23:00] in technological format of of comics. So both digital as as well as, um, analogue. But part of it also is that comics have been a home historically for a range of diverse voices because of the fact that that it is a kind of subversive medium, and it is something that you can do quite cheaply, and it is something that's that's been taken up by a lot of independent publishers. So we've [00:23:30] kind of had we've got priority areas in which we're collecting, and part of that is, um, representations of groups and communities that haven't been represented within the scope before, but also who haven't been represented in histories before women, chiefly being one of them. So a few years ago, uh, a history of New Zealand comics came out. It included three women in it. I think out of 100 ish, I'm not entirely sure what the numbers [00:24:00] are, but but there was an extreme lack of women within the the book and people kind of the cartoons and comics. People have conversations about this. What does it mean? And historians were finding it really difficult to find any, um, representations of women drawing comics. Which is not to say that women don't draw comics. It's just that we haven't collected them before. So a bunch of women got together and created three words, which is an anthology of women's [00:24:30] comics, and they managed to find women from across New Zealand from across a range of ages who had been creating comics since forever. So we know that women in comics are out there just as rainbow people and Rainbow voices are out there. And it's our job as historians and as archivists to find those cartoons and comics to make relationships so that people and make our institutions safe so people [00:25:00] want to donate them here and to make them accessible for historians. So it's harder for them to ignore us. So we don't have a great deal at the moment. We are working on it, and that's one of my Yeah, One of the things that I'm really excited about is rebalancing that collection to make sure that we are including people who maybe history has ignored or forgotten or not known about, um, in terms of what we do [00:25:30] currently have. You know, we have these broadsheet comics and feminist and lesbian comics in the collection. We have a few smatterings of trans creators. Um, we don't have a great deal of gay men within the collection, which is, I find quite interesting. And, um, I'm curious about that. And that's work that I would like to examine a little bit further and work out where to find [00:26:00] these men because it's not a question of Do they exist? It's a question, because they do. I'm sure it's a question of why can't we find them? And how can we find them? And how can we build those relationships? Even looking at the explosion of comics online, particularly with queer creators, um, making things and doing that, uh, self publishing. There's a lot of queer artists. There's a lot of by artists, but [00:26:30] again, there's not a lot of gay men who are coming through in terms of my networks. So that's an issue for me to kind of be constantly examining my own access to communities and maybe unconscious bias and recalibrating and rebalancing. So we're not leaving people out. And, yeah, I'm I'm really interested in what that means and and how we can examine that further and make make more space and [00:27:00] make sure that people aren't left behind. So is your starting point that these creators exist? It's just that they haven't either been discovered or have been ignored. Yeah, I think so. I think that that there's reasons for why cartoonists and comics get their work out there, and part of it is, you know, they get a job that's pretty easy. [00:27:30] And the other part is that that they feel like their story is valuable enough to tell. And I think that's why some of our stories have been forgotten and lost is because either we've hidden our identities, um, from other people because of fear of the implications of that which, you know, lots of women changed their names when they were writing comics because they were scared or worried about their employment, um, [00:28:00] prospects. Or that they were kind of told that they were only allowed to create this certain type of comic like the Rita Angus was making, um, cartoons for kids. And there's a lot of women who've made cartoons for kids and the ways in which histories are written. They've kind of said our cartoons for kids are not really real cartoons, so we've kind of ignored them, So part of that is our own kind of narrowness. But I think probably, [00:28:30] um, part of what is the delight of the Internet again is that it creates space to say, Hey, your stories are valuable and you're allowed to share them. And if no one ever says that, then I assume that these drawings will just go into people's personal diaries and um, or into the bin or in places where they're not shared and not celebrated. So it's not a question of whether people are creating these. [00:29:00] I think I think there's lots of people who use comics as a way to do their own self expression. Um, it's whether they feel comfortable or affirmed or safe enough to share them. And so that's part of my role. I think is to say that your work is valuable and your work should be shared and your work is a treasure and should be saved and cared for is a way to encourage more [00:29:30] people to to come out of the woodwork if if you know what I mean. What about, um, negative representations of Rainbow people? Were there those kind of cartoons and comics prior to the seventies? So our collection has a lot of cartoons and comics about our communities. We don't have a great deal by our communities. So, um, Valerie Love actually did a presentation back in 2013 [00:30:00] that examined what representations of Rainbow people within the Cartoon Archive and within mainstream editorial cartoons and kind of talked through, You know, big legislative changes and and topical events in which rainbow people were part of, and the cartoons that set aside sat alongside them. A lot of them are fairly negative portrayals or fairly stereotypical portrayals, and I can show you some examples if you would like, [00:30:30] but I haven't gotten that today because I don't for me. I feel like we have as rainbow people. We've probably seen them. We probably know what the jokes are. We, um we don't need to platform them in a way that's that highlights them. I guess. I feel like they've had their time in the sun and they exist. And they're important, reflective historical [00:31:00] documents. And at the moment, they are much higher in representation than they then the counter arguments or the the perspectives from within our communities, whether that's positive or negative. Yeah, just getting back to Helen's creations. When I look at these, uh, drawings, I see it as just as a as a viewer. But when you're looking at it, you're also seeing it as somebody who [00:31:30] creates, um, cartoons and comics. What do you see when, when you when you're looking at another artist's work, I just get such a kick out of seeing, um, original artwork and the process that you that a cartoonist goes through. So when I look at this, I kind of look at the paper that it's drawn on. I look at the way that the marks are made. I look at things like in this one here, you can see marks [00:32:00] from the white out that they've used. What do you call it in New Zealand twink? I can't believe I forgot that word. Um, so things like that mistakes that they've made And you just kind of it tells a whole a whole new story than what you see on the printed page when it's all laid out and looking nice, which is Yeah, just delightful to me. I feel like I've learned so much about [00:32:30] cartooning and comic creation since being in this room. Just looking at the original artwork that we have in the collection, Which is Yeah, just lovely. And an integral part of the artwork is the words that are used that go along with the illustrations. The wording must have changed over time. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I'm sure that, um Rainbow communities are not alone in this, but words to describe different communities and different things that are happening [00:33:00] within movements and political moments change dramatically. And I really like that. I feel like you can learn so much because because comics kind of require a kind of scarcity of words and pictures together. You can't put too many words in a comic because people won't read it. It really the language that gets used is usually very direct and very pointed. And it can tell you a lot [00:33:30] about where our society is at and what what words are in use and not in use anymore. Which is kind of yeah, I find it quite interesting. Have you come across comics and just said, Oh, my goodness, By using that word, I mean, yes, a part of me feels shocked. Sometimes I open a comic and I I have a like a moment of shock. And then I'm like, Oh, of course. [00:34:00] But that happens on the day to day. I was reading through it through a zine the other day that was made in the early two thousands and just some of the language that was used in it. And this is a zine that was about Rainbow coming out stories. The language has just changed so much in the last 20 years, and I kind of like had that same reaction of wow. Things are changing really, really fast within comics within rainbow communities, within language in general, it's it's a delight. I find it [00:34:30] really, really quite lovely. So, do you think Rainbow communities are drawn to comics and cartoons, and if so, why? Well, so I did a project a couple of years ago that I went across to the Queers and Comics, um, conference in New York, and part of what I wanted to do is to kind of share the amazing Rainbow community comic artists and writers that we have here. [00:35:00] And I kind of give a call out on the Internet and just said, Hey, if you want to be involved in the I'll make it as a little catalogue. You can share what sort of things you make. And, um, I'll take it with me and I'll share it with other people. And just what I got back was so diverse and so much more than I kind of thought that I'd have and I left people out because they didn't kind of get back to me or didn't want to be involved. So there's even more than what I had in this little publication that I threw [00:35:30] it through together in a kind of week or so and so I think that Sometimes I think that I'm the only one who sees, like, queerness and comics going together. But then I do something like that, and I realise that comics is a space that really fosters queer stories. I think partially that's because of the Internet, and you're able to reach a much wider audience than maybe you would. I think part of it is because it's low cost, Um, [00:36:00] and so it's really accessible to lots of people, and part of it is because it's hand drawn and and part of the hand drawn. This means that you are literally creating the emotions and feelings with on the page. I think of queer people having a lot of emotions, for better or for worse. But you know, we are people who have been told a lot of times to kind of not share [00:36:30] our stories, not share our feelings. And so when we have opportunities to, we bust through that and we just explode with stories which is, you know, you look at poetry. There's so many queer people in that you look at writing in general, there's so many queer people who are writing stories. Comics is is another part of that expression television as well, which is slowly starting to change. I think I think there's a lot of kind of cost barriers and and things [00:37:00] like that for getting our stories out there. But, um, yeah, I think as as queer people we are, we have to be quite creative to survive, and that comes through without our work as well. I think also to, um, the ability to very quickly subvert mainstream culture and also as an activist tool, because actually, within two or three words in an illustration, you can say a hell of a lot, can't you? Yeah, absolutely. I think that, um, [00:37:30] that's that's one of the delights of cartoons. Is that because they're seen as a little bit fringy and a little bit silly that you can They're really accessible and easy to read You. You kind of pick something up because you're like, Oh, that has pictures in it. And then suddenly you're kind of met with a message. You know, there's a reason why propaganda works really well. In terms of its use of of images and words. Together, you think of like [00:38:00] propaganda. Posters are essential. I like to think of them as comics in some ways, you know. And I think that's because as humans, we're drawn to pictures and words together. Some there's something about the combination of the two that makes them really digestible, whereas if you just have a picture or just have a lot of words, then people might not access the meaning in the same way or, you know, with pictures. I think it's open to a lot more interpretation, and I think with words, it actually [00:38:30] is. Is is much more didactic. So it closes that off. Whereas comics has this kind of weird magic middle bit that I love and just the ability to, you know, I've come across things in the past. Well, even in stickers, stickers as well, where you know, small little cartoons, comics have been placed, you know, just around Wellington, around the streets, on on on the sign posts. Um, and they just make you stop and think, Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. [00:39:00] I mean, stickers as a form of comics is definitely a thing. When, when I got my little fact shot, I got a little sticker by Ruby Jones, who had drawn a little image of community and it's I can't even remember what it said. But it said something about strength and community together. It's a little comic. She was the one who did the, um, the comic with the two women hugging after the, um, March 15th terrorist attack that went viral, [00:39:30] and she ended up doing a couple of covers for Time magazine. After that, speaking of another comic artist who's kind of like making waves internationally, she's from New Zealand and doing incredible things. Speaking of, uh, vaxes and masks. So we're right in the middle. Well, I hope we're in the middle or on the other side of, um, COVID-19, Um, and we're today wearing our kind of, um our face masks and we're looking towards omicron coming [00:40:00] into New Zealand. How has covid, uh, impacted, Uh, your job and the collections? If, if any, It's interesting. So again, speaking of another cartoonist who is doing amazing stuff we've got, we're collecting Toby Morris's comics that he's been doing with Susie Wiles, which are these which are interesting. He he doesn't actually think of them as comics. He thinks of them of graphics. I should say that they are graphics rather [00:40:30] than comics. They're small animated GIFs or GIFs, depending on how you say you pronounce it. There's a lot of controversy, um, that are explaining different things around covid and how to deal with it. You've probably seen them on the spinoff, Um, so we're collecting his work. We also have a covid archivist who's kind of collecting a lot of material about this time, which is really interesting. And lots of people are making comics about it [00:41:00] at this time because they're sitting at home. There may be, particularly at during lockdowns. They may be a little bit bored. They might be having a lot of feelings again, Um, and feeling a little bit trapped and and contained, and so sitting down and doodling your thoughts and feelings is a way to kind of get through that. So we've been collecting some of people's, um, lockdown diaries and lockdown comics as well, which is really cool. You know, I think [00:41:30] I think when we talk about some of the barriers to collecting, it's really good as curators to be able to go out and meet people and have those conversations and build relationships, and that has to happen via zoom or in creative ways these days, which is tricky and hard. Um, but we're also doing we're collecting a lot of digital cartoons, so that just continues on as normal. And, um, and also covid has, like I said, provided opportunities for [00:42:00] people to see the power of comics through Toby and Susie's work and using that as a way to disseminate information in a really easy and accessible way, which is really cool. I actually think the last time we met was, uh, you had organised an event called Gender Matters in Writing, which was fantastic here at the National Library, and the audience sat side by side. It was we could actually sit side by side together without masks, I think, and it was amazing. [00:42:30] And then, like literally about a week later, I think it was that same week, maybe, maybe even 48 hours later. Yeah, because that was a big week we were going to have. We had gender matters on early in the week, and then second, half of the week was comic fest, and by the end of the week, we had to cancel Comic fest. So yeah, it was a big it was a big turnaround. So what does What does covid meant for, like organising events? I mean, the amount of work that [00:43:00] must go into something like comic fest must be huge. Yeah, absolutely. It was a pretty gutting time that we the the the timing of it meant that we couldn't pivot fast enough to put it all online. Um, so we just ended having having to postpone it, and we kind of put it putting the pieces together again. Now, on the cusp of maybe an omicron, um, outbreak. So I feel like events, particularly events in person feel [00:43:30] really important to have at the moment. But they are also things that you have to hold fairly lightly, which is just the time that we're living in is that things can change quite quickly. And you have to have multiple plans of what happens in this instance in this instance in this instance. And you know, that's just that's just part of it. Unfortunately, I think you hit the nail on the head when that word pivot. We're all pivoting, aren't we? Yes, that's right. I [00:44:00] feel like there's, you know, we were talking about language before and the the changes in language of like Bubble has a new meaning. Now Pivot has a new meaning, and social distancing is a phrase that has a particular currency. Now that, I wonder, in 20 years will be seen as such a something that's kind of weird and outdated. Hopefully it will be. But who knows? So just looking forward to the rest of the year for for for your work, um, what are [00:44:30] you going to be concentrating on? So part of it is that the collections plan will become a public document soon, and so we'll go out for consultation. And I'm really excited about community feedback from that. You know, this is the first time that we'll have, um, comics within the collecting plan. So that will be really interesting to hear people's thoughts and feelings about that. We're organising for comic fest 2. 0 to come through as well. So [00:45:00] again, hopefully we can do that And, yeah, just excited to get to know the collection a little bit more, as well as doing that work, to rebalance and collect more things coming through because it's a really exciting time. I feel like, you know, I've got a list of of cartoonists and comic artists who I'm just really excited to make contact with and to start building those relationships with and get their cartoons and comics and stories and reflections [00:45:30] as part of our national heritage.

IRN: 3537
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/trans_ways_of_making.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004686
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093076
TITLE: Trans ways of making - a panel discussion
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ana Sciascia; Jack Trolove; Louie Zalk-Neale; Tāwhanga Nopera
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Ana Sciascia; Aotearoa New Zealand; Jack Trolove; Louie Zalk-Neale; Ngāi Te Rangi; Ngāpuhi; Ngāti Toa Rangatira; Peter Rule; Porirua; Pātaka Art and Museum; Rule Foundation; Tainui; Te Arawa; Tāwhanga Nopera; artist; arts; gallery; gender diverse; poetry; takatāpui; trans; transgender; val smith
DATE: 23 October 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: Pātaka Art and Museum, 17 Parumoana Street, Porirua
CONTEXT: Audio from the panel discussion Trans ways of making. Artists Jack Trolove (Pākehā), Tāwhanga Nopera (Te Arawa, Tainui, Ngāpuhi) and Louie Zalk-Neale (Ngāi Te Rangi, Pākehā) discuss the ways in which 'trans-ness' or 'between-ness' can be a dynamic methodology for making creative work. The event was held at Pātaka Art and Museum on 23 October 2022. A special thank you to the participants for allowing this event to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: October 2023
TEXT: Tau mai ko te mauri o ho, ko te mauri o papa, ko te mauri i o te ahupapu, e, mauri. Kienau pea, kienau tauira, kienau rūru tawheto. ora, taonga kia ora, taonga ki a, hangi hui e. Te rā i a ngā tai o Te [00:00:30] Awarawa o Porirua i ripo nei ki tēnei Pātaka ki runga, ko te marae ki raro. Nō reira, e aku nui, e aku rahi, nau mai, haere mai, ki Pātaka. Um, te tuatahi, he mihi ki a pētāwhana a i tūwhera tō tātou uh, E te ti, e te ta, nau mai hoki mai ki Pātaka. Um, welcome, everyone. I'm really looking forward to, uh, [00:01:00] this afternoon's korero. Um, and I'll be introducing our wonderful panel here today. But just to say, um, It's been wonderful to be able to host this. So thank you Jack, for bringing this COPA to aka. And if I can just, um, before we move on to the copa, just to indulge and to say to our particularly a bit of a shout out in our mehi to our, uh, rainbow au here today. Just a thank you. Thank you for your creative [00:01:30] contribution, uh, to the arts practice of Aotearoa. I know it's definitely more vibrant and more colourful, um, when everybody plays a part. And so to be able to give space and to have this afternoon and this kōrero, we're really delighted. So nei ra te So everyone, so my name is Ana Asha. I'm the director here at AKA Art Museum and for the last couple of months [00:02:00] we've been honored to have Thresholding, um, a wonderful exhibition, um, by Jack Tri Love. And it's been, um, it's been wonderful seeing the visitors' response. to the work, and it's been a delight to have. Um, and so this artist panel is part of that. And so just to say thank you, Jack, for bringing this kaupapa, um, back and, um, and having, creating this moment for all of us. Um, yeah, to be in. So I'm going to hand it over. Very [00:02:30] shortly I've got a few artist bios to read out. Incredibly impressive too. So, um, not only, yeah, it's been wonderful. So I'm just going to get back on script now before handing it over. Um, so first we have Tāwhanga Nōpera, an artist and academic whose research and art investigates marginality and is grounded Uh, by the pāharakeke, or the nurturing family structure at the heart of Māori identity. [00:03:00] Through rāranga and traditionals, uh, and traditions of Māori weaving, Tāwhanga explores, um, explores the forms of relational knowledge within our bodies. Tāwhanga has a particular interest in the ways that individuals are impacted upon the notions of power and seeks out transformative ways, pathways, uh, from traumatic experiences. [00:03:30] Uh, secondly, we have Louis , uh, works experimental performance and video embracing the power of body adornment to affirm that Ta t. Uh, their practice of twisting taura tikauka, uh, which is the cabbage tree fiber rope, uh, attempts to bind the sacred transgender experience and with the transformation powers of taniwha and tipua. [00:04:00] which are the spiritual beings from Pūrākau Māori that can change gender and form. Louis believes that culture should reflect and be part of the biodiversity of the natural world. Their art is presented across Aotearoa and internationally, most Ngā Motu, New Plymouth, with the Government Brewster Art Gallery. Kia koe, nei ra te mihi, kia koe, Rui. E te [00:04:30] mutunga, kia koe, Jack Trelov paints with tensions between embodiment and untethering, creating work to uplift states of in between ness. Uh, his exhibition, Thresholding, is currently showing here at Pātaka. Uh, Jack has been a practicing artist for over 20 years, showing nationally and internationally in artist run spaces, dealer galleries. public art galleries [00:05:00] and museums. Alongside a full time painting practice, he undertakes a doctorate at Auckland University, theorizing painting as trans or threshold work through the Celtic traditions of Keeney. Let's have a, let's, let's warm up, warm up your hands in this way. Let's give it to him. [00:05:30] Ana, thank you for that beautiful welcome. Yeah, stunning. Always feel very brought home here in a beautiful way, so thank you. Yeah, um, also just, uh, want to acknowledge, um, Ngati Toa Rangitira, whose whenua we're speaking on today. Um, and this beautiful, creative whare that is such a special place to be sharing and expanding some of the stories that are already woven into these walls. [00:06:00] Um, I want to, um, acknowledge, well, that trans and gender diverse people have existed since the beginning of time, um, and so thinking back to all of the ancestors, the people that have come before us, and the people whose legacy we're walking through and carrying into the future, um, and the creativity and artistry that has been within our experiences and bodies also since the beginning [00:06:30] of time. Um, Um, I want to acknowledge all you beautiful people who have come here today and to acknowledge all of the kind of, um, embodied knowing that you all bring about thresholds and, and transitions. Um, we hope that our conversation today will synchronize with everything that you know and grow, grow, and that we can grow each other in that way. Um, [00:07:00] so... Yeah, I thought, um, maybe just to give a little bit of, uh, background or context, um, as to the, the thinking behind having this conversation today. Um, also just to, um, acknowledge, uh, the wonderful Val Smith, who is in the top left up here, and who would be sitting, who is sitting in some way, next to Tawhanga today. Um, and Val's amazing, um, It's a kind of choreographic, um, [00:07:30] performance practice, and yeah, has so much amazing, um, ways to contribute to that, but they're doing it from their bed with a big bag of tissues up in Tāmaki Makaurau, yeah. Um, so... Yeah, the, the idea, um, we're talking today is about this idea of, um, transness or betweenness as a kind of dynamic methodology for making creative work. Um, it's a conversation about how our [00:08:00] experiences of, um, surviving and thriving between gender can harbour within them unique strengths or creative superpowers. Um, Using terms like superpowers here is an attempt to kind of refocus on strength based aspects of trans experiences and creativity as a bit of an antidote to the often publicized deficits around trans experiences like mental distress and suicidality and all of that stuff which we know are explicitly the result of [00:08:30] discrimination and social exclusion, um, and nothing to do with the Beautiful magic of being born a trans creature. Um, so... Yeah, I thought a lot about the idea of kind of hosting this panel and like pros and cons and all the rest of it. As, um, trans people, we often have complicated, uh, relationships with visibility. So invisibility and hyper visibility plague our communities simultaneously in diff in different ways. Um, [00:09:00] trans bodies are often the subject of invasive scrutiny and public pathologizing. Um, so visibility in and of itself isn't kind of inherently. Um, visibility where we can control our narratives and take them beyond discussions which are exclusively about our bodies and access to healthcare and human rights, Um, and into the frames of creativity and spirituality and energy, um, are actually rare. So, um, [00:09:30] and I think, like, in terms of, um, sort of trans visibility in the arts, it's often, um, sort of restricted to, like, maybe, artists that are explicitly showing images of trans people in artworks. Um, so that's what's seen, but what's not visible are many of the accomplished artists they see, you know, out here today as well. Um, from our communities, who are making work that isn't instantly recognisable in that way, but who, when we dig a little deeper, [00:10:00] draw on aspects... These aspects of experience in extremely interesting, um, ways within their creative processes. Um, So embodied knowledge of transness can become its own type of artistic engine. Well, that's what I feel. Um, So, some of the things, you know, thinking about like what does transness mean inside painting, inside choreography, inside raranga, inside performance. [00:10:30] Um, And creating a context to publicly share these maybe more nuanced discussions, I'm hoping that we get to widen some of the conversation around what trans and gender diverse people are bringing into the world culturally and artistically. Um, and yeah, just more expansiveness around the conversations that we're having. Um, so, one of the, you know, I've been thinking about like how do we sort of, Disrupt the kind of [00:11:00] spectacle that can happen around transness or, um, and, and one way I thought might be nice just to begin our conversation today, um, is to, um, acknowledge, like, my feeling is that we all have embodied knowledge about transitions and about what it feels like to, to be a threshold and to pass thresholds and all of that kind of stuff. And, um, so, I'm going to read a little poem in a minute as a way of kind of framing some, maybe to just jog things, [00:11:30] but what I'd love you all to do is just to sort of think about something, um, in your life or, in your embodied experience and your lived knowing of the world, um, that has some kind of connection to, you know, The, I guess that, those transness, those trans qualities within yourself, or, or the, the knowledge that you have about transition. So that could be like, um, having, you know, an experience of grief, grief changes us deeply, you know, falling in love, desire. Um, it could be [00:12:00] like, really practical, like moving house. Um, or, uh, yeah, whatever, whatever your sort of way in there, um, is. Um, So just reflect on that, and then we're just gonna invite you to share with the person next to you, just for, you know, 30 seconds, what that might be. Um, while you're thinking of the thing, that little magic moment that you have, your own body wisdom about these stories, I'm just gonna read this, um, [00:12:30] poem that I found by, um, I found out who it was, um, Heidi Priebe, who, um, it's actually a, it's, um, Anyway, I'm just going to read it, and it's about that idea that we're always kind of in shifting. So, to love someone long term is to attend a thousand funerals of the people they used to be. The people that are too exhausted to be any longer. The people they don't recognize inside themselves anymore. The people they grew out of. The people they never ended up growing into. [00:13:00] We so badly want the people that we love to get their spark back when it burns out, to become speedily found when they are lost. But it's not our job to hold anyone accountable to the people they used to be. It's our job to travel with them between each version and to honour what emerges along the way. So sometimes it will be an even more luminescent flame. Sometimes it will be a flicker that disappears temporarily and temporarily floods the room with a [00:13:30] perfect and necessary darkness. So just when you're ready, find your person next to you and just maybe share a little moment with each other. So, in terms of just to sort of, so you know, kind of the structure of what we're feeling like we do today is, um, the three of us are just going to talk for about ten minutes, um, about some of the, the ways that we [00:14:00] think about our kind of making methods or, or thinking methods and, and connection to some of these ideas around, um, trans magic, transness, um, and then, uh, and then from that we're just probably going to have a bit of an organic conversation and then, you know, Um, invite any questions. Yeah. So, um, first up, we have the glorious Louis. Um, tēnā koutou katoa. Um, tēnā koutou [00:14:30] katoa. Um, um, Ko te mihi tuatahi ki tāwhanga mo te karakia. Um, and, yeah, and thanks to Pātaka and to Jack and everybody who's made this happen and everybody for coming. Um, Ko te iwi ki Tauranga Moana. Um, ko, um, ko Louie Zalkaniel toku ingoa. Um, so I, yeah, I'm an artist. I, I, um, [00:15:00] I live in Ōtaki now and, um, I've been... Working on my art practice over the last, I guess since I was a kid, but it's like, but recently it's, I've been learning about my whakapapa and, um, and yeah, like using body adornment and, and like the way that I, that I'm presenting my own body as a basis of my practice. And, um, so yeah, this, this artwork up here, this was, [00:15:30] um, these are takarure, which are um, I, like, swim, I can swim with them in the water and they're made from te koka and, um, and driftwood from the beach and, um, and, yeah, that's, that's, that was like a way to, like, embody, embody these, these senses of, like, of, like, things that our tupuna might have done and, um, And, yeah, just these like deep, like deep sort [00:16:00] of knowledges that are like still in everybody's bodies. And it's like those can come from all sorts of different places. It's like at one time in the past, everybody was like very, very deeply connected to the environment. And like we still are, but it's harder to see that sometimes. And knowing that, um, that, yeah, like, like you said, that trans people have been, have existed forever, it's like, those, yeah, that, that sort of depth, I, I really, like, [00:16:30] find that really comforting to, to know that this isn't just a, a new thing, it's like, we've, we've always existed, and, and, um, yeah, from, in all these different sorts of ways, yeah. Um, and, um, yeah, this is another. Um, this, this was made from, from te kouka fibre again, like cabbage tree leaves and um, and also, um, it's stuffed with my, my hair as well, like, all of the hair that [00:17:00] comes out. It's like, you could imagine there's a lot. Um, and that was, um, that was done in Otepoti and, um, we, we did this performance. It was like a, um, I guess it's kind of felt like a ritual or, or some sort of, um, Yeah, it was, like, everybody came together and we all, we all, like, experienced something together and, um, this, this moment in the performance, um, I'd been wearing that on my back and then, um, and then it got, um, [00:17:30] yeah, we, we all held the, held the net or the strings that are, um, connected to it and it, and it, like, held itself raised above the ground and, and that felt like a really special moment, just, like, lots of people all focusing their energy on, on one thing, um, and, There was, yeah, like, I guess all of these performances, I, like, we try to make sure there's lots of queers invited along because that's, that's kind of, like, who, I guess [00:18:00] that's, that's, in a way, that's kind of my target audience, like, the people who I want to experience that, but, um, I'm also, like, so happy when anybody, because, yeah, like, like, everybody, everybody experiences transitions of some sort and, um, There's, yeah, there's just like, there's no, there's no solid limits or boundaries to these things. We're all, we're all experiencing gender, we're all experiencing, um, well yeah, just like death and birth and, [00:18:30] and changes in our lives. Our bodies are always changing. Um, and, so, um, a more recent performance, this was a couple of months ago, I, I, this was kind of like I wanted to scale up that idea a bit more, and so we had got this big tractor tyre, and I, um, I like drilled into it and wove, wove tīkoko ropes into it, and, um, and it was, yeah, that, that was, um, up in Ngā Motu on, um, Ōnuku Taipari back beach, um, which is, um, just, just [00:19:00] close to New Plymouth, and, um, yeah, that was, that, this sort of like, Um, and then the next picture, um, I, I was like, really wanting to make it, because I'm not, I'm not like an actor, or I'm not trained in theatre or anything, and I feel like my performances are more like, just me experiencing something with everybody around me, and um, and so the, yeah, like I had all these restrictions, I was wearing those [00:19:30] takarere on my feet, um, and that was restricting the way that I, um, that I was walking. I had to like crawl around and I had um, these earmuffs which were um, blocking my sense of sound and um, and I had, I had um, these made from, from kukuroaroa, they're like the horse muscle shells and, um, and I'd also been like growing my fingernails as well. So some of those, like those are my real nails as well, which was like, I think that sort [00:20:00] of connection of like, I can like grow something from my body that is similar to something from the environment. That's a real like, and also the, the, um, the kupu Maori for, um, For, um, yeah, this kuku roaroa is the mussel shells, um, and, um, fingernails is my kuku. And so there's like, both of them have this word, kuku. So it's like, that's built, that's like built into the way that, um, that, that we can understand [00:20:30] the world in a, in a Māori way. That it's like, we are, we are like so much embedded in the, embedded in the environment. Um, and then. Yeah, um, just to finish off the, um, like, last weekend we had this, um, wānanga up in Ōtaki, and, um, and it was based on the tīkauka, and, um, there was a lot of takatāpui invited along, and, um, and it was, yeah, and artists, and all, just, all sorts of people [00:21:00] came along, and, um, and that was, yeah, that, that sort of space, having it, having it, Like a focused space that we were all there for a reason to learn about the tīkauka tree and learn about the rongoā that you can get from it and um, and we, we had waiata and karakia and all sorts of things that we were learning and learning how to extract the fibers from the, from the leaves and weave with them and um, That was, yeah, that's sort of like coming together. That's like another, [00:21:30] another sort of performance. Well, it's not a performance, but it's like that, that's kind of what my performance is, what I aim to do with them as well. That it's like bringing, bringing people together to experience something together. And so that, that felt like kind of another natural version of this. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's all I'll say. I'll pass on to, like, Tafonga now. Cool. Kia ora. Kia ora e hoa. Um, just want to say I think it's [00:22:00] quite fascinating that you weave with te kouka, and that you, um, that you have a practice deeply embedded in te kouka. I mean, I was looking at some of your mahi yesterday, just the way that you, Um, the middle is, is like profound. It's like, I mean, I know that like, you know, like Bethany Hill, like is really focused on local and some artists really, really focused on different types of media, but I never really thought about what a focus on te kouka can bring. So kia ora for that. Um, just firstly, thank you all for coming. Um, it's a real privilege to be able to talk [00:22:30] with, um, To talk in front of people about, um, things that are really, really personal. It's scary, but it is a privilege. So thank you. Um, thank you also to, um, to Anna and Claire and Patika. Um, I've never been here before and, um, I'm really enjoying it so far. Um, and I wanna say thank you to, to also the Peter Wool Foundation. Um, when we're having a call earlier I was, I was just reading up on Peter Roll and I had a bit of a tongue. Um, it was sad to, I, I was sad to find out. Um, . Um, just aspects of [00:23:00] his life and, um, maybe think about my own life too, just reading about him. Um, like, there's some things in life that I've always known. Um, I've always known that I'm deeply loved by my whānau. Um, that I'm Māori. And I've always known, um, that I live in a deeply contested place. And that it's important for me to be as Māori as I can. And that's how I was raised. And so those are, that's the foundation that... that I have about myself and my identity that I don't think a lot of other people have. [00:23:30] Um, to be really, really grounded as a Aotearoa, in your papakainga, where you've never ceded sovereignty, and where you still own the land, and where your kids still walk around barefoot and half naked in the middle of the afternoon, evening, doesn't matter if it's the middle of winter or whatever. Um, and it's a real privilege. Um, so, um, yeah, I just want to say thank you with that privilege. Um, and... Yeah, um, like, just picking up off Louie's kōrero, like, my, um, my works deeply, like rāranga is the core of my [00:24:00] practice, and it doesn't look like rāranga, and the things that I do don't look like rāranga, but I know they are rāranga. And when I learn to weave, like there's this thing that happens when you're a weaver, um, when you're weaving where you just go, it's hard to describe, it's like, and it's this moment when you're like, My body knows something really different. And it's going, uh! When I'm trying to do something, I'm trying to weave something, my body's going, uh! And it's like, stop! And you try, and you try and like, push past that, but actually your body knows way, way more than you do. And so that, uh, [00:24:30] becomes a like, okay, I actually just have to step back, and I have to stop, and I have to go really slow, and let what my body knows come to the forefront. And um, I just wanted to say thank you for starting off the way that you did, because, um, And what that did is it gave us all an opportunity to, um, think about those moments in our lives when our bodies go, uh, and it feels like a weird thing, but it's actually really, really powerful thing. And, um, over the past three years, [00:25:00] definitely, um, through the pandemic, um, my whole life has been one big, uh, and I've gone far out. This has never happened before. And, and I've got some ways to work through it that other people don't. Because my whole life has been like, oh, oh, this is, oh, this is, oh, I can't, oh, oh, oh, I'm going to die. Um, but with the pandemic it was like, oh, I'm going to die. But actually at the same time it was like, yes. But I've got some privilege that I didn't have before. Like, I've got a job. I work at a [00:25:30] university. It's the first real job I've ever had. Even though, like, I'm 46 now, so what? I've had that job for three years. So, got my first real job when I was 43. Um. And it says, I'm a doctor. So it's like a real, real job. So it's like from no job, like from a job as an artist, like, Oh, you're just an artist. So you've got no job. So I'm a doctor now. I'm in a university. And, um, and things were so full on through the pandemic. Like people would send constant emails, Tāwhanga can you, Tāwhanga can you support with this, Tāwhanga can you, and it was like, [00:26:00] I can't even open my computer anymore. Like that's how full on that anxiety is. So no, I, I'm, I can't. And, and turn my phone off because I can't answer those either. And like I live in the pa and I won't have conversations with anyone else except my whānau. Because it's way too full on. And, and I didn't realise actually that my whole life has been like that. And that through the pandemic, the rest of the world slowed down enough to enable me to use the language that has been coming to the forefront. And like I must say. I'm so proud [00:26:30] of Rangatahi in this country today. It's incredible the kinds of things that our young people talk about, and the language they use, and things they do. That's so healing, and um, so during the pandemic, I was like, right, I'm surrounded by all this language that's never really been used before, I've got a shitload of privilege, and I'm gonna use it. And so over the past few years, it really just slowed the world down, in order to get to a space where I feel like, Um, this isn't the end of my life, where it's like, this uh, is something that I can work through, because I know I can work through it. I've [00:27:00] been doing it through my whole practice. I can always get those uh moments, but this time I want to get past this uh moment, because I think there's some really, really, um, important learning for everyone that can be done during this time, because we've all had to slow down. And I was talking with my peers, like, yesterday evening, and I started to think, you know, actually, like, because I'm always described as a problem, like, this work was really problematic when I went to exhibit it at the City Gallery. Um, [00:27:30] the curator was down with it, but, um, the directors were like, that's really tongue in cheek. I don't know that you can exhibit that. And, um, for me that wasn't, that wasn't like a full on moment. That was like, that's rape survival. That's like me and Sanfran in drag, um, the night after surviving rape. And, um, like my drink was spiked, and I didn't, like I'd just finished writing my master's thesis. I was in a real good mood. I hardly drank anything. After being in a club for a second, all of a sudden, like, I'm not in a club anymore. I'm waking up [00:28:00] in a hospital, and I don't know where I am. And, um, you know, for me, like, there's really, really no place like home. Like, you know, I was in the States then, and, um, I had to go through a bit of ceremony, but my flight was the next day, and it was like, I'm so close to home, and yet this horrible thing's happened, but it's okay. Because really, there's no place like home. And actually, it was like, yeah, there really is no place like this body. Um, because even though like, the people who are hosting me and [00:28:30] the circumstance of like, I mean I don't kind of remember things because my drink had been spiked so there were lots of gaps and I knew that something traumatic had happened and I was a bit confused but at the same time it was like, no it's alright, you're going home, you're with people who are safe and then when you get home like you know you'll be alright so it's okay and so it was like well there really is no place like home because in this, in this, In this, like, body that's between these poles of gender in our society, there is this thing that always happens where I'm able to, like, balance my emotions, [00:29:00] think through a problem, and always get to the solution. And the solution is to always stay alive. And, um, and that's a really, really powerful thing. But actually, I wonder why, I wonder if that's like, like, that's my norm, to be able to do that. But why isn't everybody's norm? Like, we live in a really dangerous and problematic world. And so why is it that only some people, like only a few people it seems like, have an ability to live more than half a life? [00:29:30] Like, why is it that some people have the ability to shift between a masculine and feminine space, to always live in a solutions focused mode? Like, my life, um, from the lens of other people is a big problem. And it always has been, especially like, being a young Māori person living in the 70s and 80s in Christchurch. Between Christchurch and Lordstown. Like I was a big problem for people and I wasn't. I was just a little boy. Because I was just a happy little kid, but I was a big fucking problem for a lot of people. And I'd hear about it all the time, like, from a really young age, I'd hear, What are you doing? [00:30:00] What are you doing? We're watching you. And it was like, oh, I'm just a little boy. And I started to think, well, like, as I've gotten older, and I've assumed this privilege, and, um, and I'm in a space where I've got a lot of power to kind of slow things down. What I've started to think is like, actually, like, I'm really, really well. Like, I had a conversation with my mother the other day and she's like, You know, you haven't fixed your car and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, Mum, I'm real happy. Like, I don't need to fix my car. I [00:30:30] can afford to fix my car. But, um, but, things in my life are good. So, so the problems that you see about my life... They're not actually my problems, they're your problems. Like, I'm in a good space, I'm real happy. And so that work is like, um, I made it in 2010, but it really is, it's about like, knowing how to find wellness in a space that is a big problem for other people, but that's actually home to me. [00:31:00] Um, jump forward like, a good decade. Um, so, or even more than a decade. This is like from 2016 17. And so this is like a piece of work from my PhD project. Um, and it's kind of like bringing that problem, like, to the, to the broader space of like the cultural context. Like, that's definitely not, that's not just about being takatāpui and trans. That's actually about being Māori and Pākehā and a souvenir. So you might not [00:31:30] recognise that, but that's a pōkāpa Um, and normally on top of that, there's a bust of Queen Victoria. And it's one of two carved wooden busts that exist, that were ever created. Um, and, and that's, that's kind of my backyard. That's just in my village, at home, and I walk past that like at least five times a day. And other people say it's this really sacred space, and it's just my backyard. It's my home. Again, it's just my home. Um, and then I'll get you to fit to that last image please, Louis. [00:32:00] Um, and then jump forward to like this year. And that's just really, that's just me, actually. That's just me with no other thing than, like, that work, there's no place like homo. Like, that's the space I was thinking about when I was in San Fran experiencing trauma. It was like, I just need to go to Tarawera. I just need to go jump in the moana, and have a kani kani, and things are alright. That's like the newest performance that I've created. And it's a real simple performance. I just put on my headphones, walk into a space where there are people, [00:32:30] and I just start to dance. Like I've never danced before. And like, I sing too. And like, when I first started rehearsing that performance, which was about the time I started my PhD in 2012, like, I did. I looked like a crazy person on the street. Like every other crazy person that's singing and dancing and just like, oh yeah, here you go, here's two dollars. Um, but I've rehearsed, practiced it so much, like I've danced around Hippie so much on the street that now it looks real professional, like now you, I can see people go, oh, [00:33:00] ah. Because it's like, oh, well it seems like what I'm used to seeing is this kind of weird unwell thing. But they do it real well and they look real good. Um, ah, and that dance, yeah, dance along too, and it's interesting when people start dancing along with you and you know you're the only one that can hear the music. So for me, um, like even though those three works are quite different from each other, they're about a journey of, of being, being a trans body, and um, [00:33:30] and having the power to say, I'm not the problem, I'm the solution. Yeah, and that's where that work is. Um, that, that work's about a solution. Because I've always kind of lived in a space of like, Okay, well it's depressing, it's hard, it's hard, but yeah, find the solution. And now I'm in the exact opposite space where like, everything is, um, is a solution. And actually all the problems are just exciting data to like manage and manipulate and figure through. And um, and I realised that it was really important to get to a [00:34:00] place where you could just be full of hope because what I realised my life was, was... It's always going to be a fight. It's always going to be a fight. Like, it's okay, like, I'm tough now, but it's always going to be hard. It's always going to be tough. It's always going to be a struggle. And I don't want to live my life like that, because that's actually, that's suicidal ideation. That's hopelessness. And, um, and just to bring it back to Peter Ruhl, you know, like, um, like that's how his life ended. Um, and I don't want my life to end like that. And, like, [00:34:30] I've, I've, I've lost, I've lost children to suicide. And, um, And so yeah, now my whole life is in that space of, I'm the solution, like, I stand at that threshold now. Kia ora. Kia ora. So, I just want to start and straight in with, um, this beautiful, you know, this idea of survival and um, I've been working a lot with, [00:35:00] um, mangroves lately. So I'm a painter, um, and we'll talk a little bit more about that in a minute, how I kind of think of paint as this kind of threshold language. But, um, one of the, I, I realized, you know, we kind of have this, you know, we all have these embodied, like, instincts around how we make. And I think so much for me, I don't sort of, I try to make not very much with my head, like much more like hands first, body first, you know, like, um, and so. It's [00:35:30] only been in retrospect that I've realised, like, maybe for like the last, like, ten years, all the shows that I've done have always, they've always kind of anchored around these, um, these, like, trying to understand these other kind of liminal bodies or between bodies. Um, and so, um, for example, so that I, um, I did a, a show called Mangrove, which was, which I'm going to talk about in a minute, and then I did one, um, called Keening, which is the Celtic traditions of calling [00:36:00] between worlds when someone's passed over. Um, and the, so the Keener is this, um, uh, sort of like, I guess, an, uh, a body expert who, um, who can wail and grieve in a way which allows the living to release the kind of wildness of grief. In order that the world can kind of reshape enough to be lived in again. Um, so the, you know, shapeshifters, that's that kind of work. And I think of paintings being these, the [00:36:30] bodies we make in paintings or in performance or in any kind of artwork being bodies that are those kind of, um, those bodies that can facilitate us having some kind of, um, shifting experience. Um, and, and so the. Yeah, and then recently in the exhibition I've got just, um, next door is, is based around the, the liminal [00:37:00] bodies of, like, dusk and dawn. So I was kind of thinking if time, if time was trans, if the light was trans, um, where are they? Who are they? And, uh, the dusk, the dawn, um, I think that's one of the kind of, um, I love that sort of when you're talking about reflipping the, you know, just reframing. Um, the stuff that's supposedly problematic, like for me, I think I, there was a long time of trying to look and find, you know, in history, like where, where were the trans artists, where were the [00:37:30] artists that work in the way that's going to make sense to me, um, where are the, even just, you know, like, where were the people? And um, and because we've been, you know, like actively edited out of, of histories, um, for me, that ended up being a beautiful creative. thing, because I was like, cool, okay, I've got to find these bodies, um, because I learn body to body. So where are they? And that's when I found the mangroves, um, who, [00:38:00] uh, these, um, how do we, oh yeah, I'll just, so, um, we, we live up in the Kaipara, um, my ETUs, Sissy and Simmy, our old neighbours. Is, uh, area where it's, yeah, there's, we're surrounded by mangroves and, um, tidal estuaries and it's muddy and it's murky and, and, um, I was trying to find, again, I was trying to look through kind of written literature to find, you know, I was trying to [00:38:30] be a researcher and, um, and I was really having a lot of trouble and then I was like, oh, look at you who I'm reading every day, like reading your marks, your language, your temperature, your, and I realized, oh, that's, so that's, At the moment, they're my kind of teachers, or that's the, like, the, the trans kinships that I've found that can teach me how to make paintings. And, um, and so for, with them, they are, um, actually, I'll just, just in terms of, like, trying to be, [00:39:00] do a, have a practical minute. Um, so, yeah, I used to make paintings which were kind of like this, like, completely covered in really thick impasto paint. And then after spending all this time with these mangroves, Um, whose language is like this, like it's like that kind of pallet and mud and um, so I started working with raw linen and um, and see these beautiful things here. So all of these, um, new metaphors that are [00:39:30] sticking up out of the ground are literally straws for breathing. So they're marks looking for oxygen. And as a painter, that is just the most exciting concept, like marks that are looking for oxygen. That's literally how you build a painting until you, somebody's breathing with you, you know? Um, so, I've just got images here of a painting that's kind of coming into being to try and show you like, you know, you just follow those same marks on that muddy surface and make those mangrove y marks, and then each time the tide comes in and out, it leaves another [00:40:00] layer of silt. And so, then here it is, like another wash over of that sort of silt. And then the last layer is kind of, it's all kind of clumped in. But there's, um, there's these, and for me these are very muddy, dirty paintings. Not like, I think I used to be quite fluorescent. And it's like, yeah, me being quite mellow and mangroovy. Um, and, but um, they, the, yeah, one of the beautiful things also about those mangroves are they have these little seed pods. [00:40:30] And they drop them, and, well, when they release their little seed pods, like with most seeds, they fall on the ground, and if they grow, they grow, if they don't grow, they just die or whatever. Um, but, I didn't think I mentioned first though that the mangroves are so special to me because they are threshold beings, they live between water and the shore, you know, trees aren't supposed to live in the land, uh, they're supposed to live in the land, but these ones live in the ocean. And um, And [00:41:00] they survive there and their bodies form these kind of storm breaks, which is like that, um, you know, having myself felt the experience of being like a storm break in gender, it's like a very, yeah, it's like, I can, it's beautiful to find these beings, these creatures. Um, but their seed pods, I keep wanting to come back to this story, they, they drop them and what happens is basically they float around. They don't rot. They don't, like, do anything. They can float for, like, years and [00:41:30] years until they're in a place that they know that they have a chance of survival. And that's when they let go. And I just sort of think, you know, so much, you know, working with, um, trans and gender diverse young people and queer people. You know, that's part of the, you know, survival strategies of, like, how we work out how to manage that, you know. Um, and... Yeah, I think I'll, I think I'll, I'm trying to pause it [00:42:00] up. Yeah, there's, there's like metaphors of like how, how we relate to the world around us. It's like we are, yeah, it's like we, we can like experience those as well. Like you can go and like touch a mangrove and like, like feel how another being experiences that as well. It's like, yeah, like you, it's not just a comparison. It's like you can, you can connect with that, which I, I find that really special too. Like, as a species, like, [00:42:30] socially we binarize, but the rest of the species around us aren't. And like, our whole existence is in this space that is really, that is a really trans spatial threshold. Like, everywhere around us, um, offers us, like, real fluid ways of engaging with the world. And, and, and so what is it about us that, um, That makes us force ourselves into these really rigid spaces of being. And, um, and what do [00:43:00] we need to do, with each other, or for each other, to enable us to be whole people? Because like, um, what I've realised in my life is like, far out, finally I feel really good! And it shouldn't have taken 46 years to get there, or nearly 47. Like, um, like, How, how come that couldn't happen earlier? And like, with my mokos now, especially, it's like, okay, their lives are going to be like this, and I'm going to make sure I use this kind of language, and I'm going to be like this, my energy's going to be like this all the time, and I'm around them, and I'm going to, and like, so, you know, with the young people I'm [00:43:30] around, I'm really, really intentional about what I need to do. To make sure that their bodies feel safe in order to just be, you know, and, um, and then it makes me go, well, actually what I need to do for my mum then, you know, what I need to do for my mum, like, she's real 70 ways and she gets real grumpy all the time at me, and, um, and my sisters. And my brother too, but our lives are really, really good, but she still gets grumpy about stuff that's irked her since, like, we were babies. And like, what do I need to do for her to help her feel loved enough, to be safe enough, [00:44:00] to just let go of that kind of stuff, you know? Because she is in a really safe space, um, but she doesn't feel it. And so yeah, that's one concern I have, like, a lot. Well, what do I need to do as a trans person to, to share this knowledge so that the people around me feel as... Feel as empowered as I do. Yeah. But, like, nature, like, gives us all the answers all the time. Yeah. But I feel like artwork, too. Like, I feel like that's, for me, seeing both of your art practices is like that. I'm kind of like, yes! See? Proof! Proof of thing! You know? And [00:44:30] it's just like, it's like that thing of, I think it's, you know, it, you know, a sort of trans language is everywhere, you know, and it's so rich and it's so exciting and it's so metaphoric and beautiful. Beautiful. And... It feels sometimes like we pretend it isn't there, you know, so it's not like, so I think, yeah, when the two of you have made artworks that I've seen and read about, I've just felt like, ah, yeah, it's, it's like, um, it [00:45:00] illuminates what's already there, you know, so it's like, which I think is part of that really powerful thing about, um, stopping the story that this is some kind of art. New contemporary nonsense, you know, it's like no no the ancientness of that shape shifting is a really fucking sacred thing Yeah, and a really exciting thing and it's a thing that You know, I mean every maker works, you know, like that's the it's the it's the material that we make with, you know It's like that's how [00:45:30] anyone makes art or makes stories or makes I can cooking, you know, like it's these Like, I've heard you speak before about that idea of kind of, um, weaving, like drawing threads that are in different places together, is literally the act of making, you know? So it's like that kind of, um, yeah. Um, at what point, and also how, were you able to, [00:46:00] like, experience your transness as something to survive, versus something that's thriving, and something that's really positively like the superpower that it's in? So it's like a really huge shift in thinking, which is really cool. But it's like, definitely a transitional step that I feel like a lot of people need to take. I used Purako. Like, um, I was really intentional about it. I was [00:46:30] like, well... Okay, Maui went into a feminine space and he died, apparently. But what if he didn't die? Like, what if he just transformed? Like, I go into, I'm a masculine body in a feminine space? Of creativity? Like, that's the worm, right? And so what's my life like? Well, well, if I'm Maui, like, okay, what are those narratives? And I started just to look through Maui narratives and go, Oh, yeah, it's like being adopted. Oh, I was adopted. Oh, yeah, okay. And then, like, through, like, because, like, across the world, all of these meta narratives, um, [00:47:00] They, they map out some really basic human traits and behaviours. And so, like, I'm a big fan of the Marvel Universe. Because they're just ordinary people and they become superheroes. Especially like, the new, the new offshoots like, here you got a young Muslim Indian like, and she's like, a superpower. And like, you know, these kids from the hood and, and I'm like, well, Marley kids, you know? Kids in New Zealand. We're all pretty fantastic. We do special things like run around barefoot all the time. In the middle of winter, [00:47:30] shorts, t shirts, you know, that's pretty superior. And so what I do is I, I, I, like, in my life, I, I re narrate all the time exactly what's going on. Like, I'll stand in front of the mirror and, and especially if I get a negative thought about myself, it's like, No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't you talk to yourself like that. The rest of the world will talk to you about like that, but don't you talk negative to yourself. Like, this is who you are, you're a powerful, you're a superhero, and today you're going to conquer this. And I talk to myself like that all the time, and it might seem like a fantasy or a lie, but, you know, like, I'm a great believer in fake it till you make it. [00:48:00] And like, my life has proven to me that if you practice something hard, like, if you just practice little bits of things, like, it just starts to assemble in yourself. And like, belief, you know, your truth, what is true, is just what you think more often. You know, and so if you change your thoughts, you can change the way you be, and you can change the world around you. It didn't seem that it should be that easy, but really it is, because, like... As people, we have so much power, and as trans people, we're actively creating who we are. Like other people, they've got jobs, or they've got relationships that they can use to help [00:48:30] frame who they are. But as a trans person, you actively go, I want to look like this. I want to be like this. I want to speak like this. I want to say these kinds of things. I want to dress like this. I'm in control. And like, other people don't have that kind of control over their lives. And so it's, even though it feels really confused and fraught with, If you're able to find, like, ways to, um, to talk yourself up, it's not a bad thing. Like, in Te Arawa, you do it all the time. People don't like Te Arawa. They're like, Arawa suck themselves. But it's, but what I love about being in Te Arawa and being from Te Arawa [00:49:00] is that everyone's like, I'm the best in the world. And my cousin Enya, Enya, like, I'm the best, oh, I'm the best in the world. It's like, yes, you really are. It's not a lie. It's absolutely not a lie. It's not a lie. It is. And, like, people in my community, have gotten so good at talking about themselves in a good way, that now it's the truth. And that can be the same for all of us, and I don't see why it shouldn't be. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and like, the ability to be able to be in this [00:49:30] space of, of being trans and also being an artist as well, it's like, there's all these people who are, who have like, fought so hard to be able to do these things, and like, I feel like, for me, I'm in a, in a privileged space with this in some ways that I haven't, Like, I guess, I guess there's like the suppressing of things when I was younger, but then it's, but then like, moving into this, into what I am now, I feel like I haven't, there hasn't been a whole lot of resistance, and that's, that's like, so thanks to all of the, [00:50:00] the queers and the tupuna and the artists who've already done all of this and, and really, yeah, there's. Yeah, people in this room as well, who have, who have like, made that possible, and yeah, but there's still a long way to, a long way to go to make sure everyone can do that easily, because it should be, it should be easy, it should just come naturally to everyone to be able to be whoever they need to be. I used to feel a lot of doubt, [00:50:30] um, that the future would be bright, but actually now it's just like, oh my god, it's happening, it's really, really happening, like people are transforming and people are being happy, and people are doing powerful things and it's, um, And yeah, maybe it's just a lie I'm telling to myself, but for us it's a good lie. Yeah, that's the truth. Yeah, I think it's, um, it's that, the other thing that makes me think about is like, you know, um, climates, or like the idea of kind of temperature or whatever. So, um, [00:51:00] I remember in the past working around kind of, um, you know, LGBTQIA um, Young people, you know, communities with young people around, like, stuff in schools, how and what would happen is like when there's, um, discrimination or homophobia, transphobia, whatever, and a young person's getting a, you know, having a hostile shit time, um, the reaction would be like, oh, send that kid to a school counsellor, you know, and it's like, hmm, no, the [00:51:30] climate is the problem, not that person, not that child, you know, so it's like, and I feel like there's Big, beautiful shifts happening to it, thanks to a lot of work of people in this room, um, Um, and further, uh, you know, around Aotearoa, but to, to really kind of flip that idea of like, um, The, the point is to look at the systemic or the structural stuff, so the, the climate is the kind of climate that Whoever it comes into is just gonna flourish, and it's not a flippin [00:52:00] conversation, you know? And I think, um, in terms of like, The, um, you know, the question that you had before about, it, it made me think, I feel like the work that needs to happen in the world is that, um, all of us, um, and people who, who aren't trans or don't have that kind of connection, um, begin to kind of trust and appreciate and, and become more conscious of the qualities of transness, of in [00:52:30] betweenness, of thresholds, of, you know, like, the more that that becomes a, um, I think the way that those qualities and moments get kind of treated in, like, wider society, but, you know, predominantly Pākehā culture, is like a blunt, um, you know, like, we try and, Quickly get over those changing moments, or like, a quick ritual if we have to get it, but to the next, you know, instead of like, loitering in there, or be learning in there, or like, what is this amazing space, you know? So I feel like, um, [00:53:00] in terms of like, allyship, or how I imagine that, you know, what I imagine changing that climate, is that transness is something that is, um, You know, I feel like artists in general, like, because that's all how we make, it's already at the centre of so much kind of process, but I feel like one of the things that is gonna make it a lot easier, or you know, I just feel like if, if in general we're kind [00:53:30] of leaning into the richness of that more, that is in itself gonna like change a climate of um, you know, like that thing of like whatever we embrace in ourselves helps shift the temperature In fact, shall we do our little closing? I feel like we've got a little idea for this, how to kind of embed, like, you know, we took a lot of, actually, I'm going to bring in here, um, you know, the brilliant Val Smith, a lot of their practice is around, [00:54:00] um, semantics. So, like, body, um, knowing through the body, um, and listening through the body, um, rather than, like, um, cerebrally or whatever. Um, And so, we were thinking it might be nice for us all to complete this session today by kind of again going back through our memories into our bodies and bones and, and trying to connect to [00:54:30] a time where, um, something you can remember in your own lived experience about, um, when transness felt hopeful. You know, or when a threshold felt hopeful, um, and I was just wondering if we could all just kind of like, just tune into that and see if we can like hear it, hear that vibration come up in the room, you know, um, and you don't need to share it [00:55:00] if you don't, yeah, just to sit with it and see if you can feel it. Yeah. So we're just going to take like a minute now, a minute silence to. Okay. And you're allowed to come back out from your in a [00:55:30] sacred transgender space. I just wanted to kind of, um, bookmark the end of this with a, um, a poem. It's, it's a, it's called For Belonging. It's a Irish sing by, um, a poet called John o Donahue. Um, May you listen to your longing to be free. May the frames [00:56:00] of your belonging be generous enough for your dreams. May you arise each day with a voice of blessing whispering in your heart. May you find a harmony between your soul and your life. May the sanctuary of your soul never become haunted. May you know the eternal longing that lives at the heart of time. May there be kindness in your gaze when you look within. May you never place walls between the light [00:56:30] and yourself. May you allow the wild beauty of the invisible world to gather you, mind you, and embrace you in belonging. He karakia e whakamutunga. Tūtawa mai runga, tūtawa mai raro, tūtawa mai waho, tūtawa mai [00:57:00] i raro. Kia tauai te mauri tū, te mauri ora ki te katoa. Haumi e, hui e, tāui ki e.

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TITLE: InsideOUT Kōaro -10th birthday
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VOICES: Alex Ker; Amber Leslie; Awhi Marshall; Bear O'Connor; Brock Stobbs; Cameron Kapua-Morrell; Chanel Hati; Elizabeth Kerekere; Jaye Barclay; Kate Aschoff; Kiefer Hunt; Neo Kenny; Tabby Besley; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; 2020s; Alex Ker; Amber Leslie; Aoife Moss; Awhi Marshall; Bear O'Connor; Brock Stobbs; Chanel Hati; Elizabeth Kerekere; InsideOUT Kōaro; Jaye Barclay; Kate Aschoff; Kiefer Hunt; Nayland Alliance of Gays and Straights (NAGS); Nayland College; Neo Kenny; Tabby Besley; Tīwhanawhana; Tīwhanawhana Trust; two/fiftyseven
DATE: 18 October 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: two/fiftyseven, 2nd floor, 57 Willis Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the event to celebrate InsideOUT Kōaro's 10th birthday. The event was held in the shared space at 2/57 Willis Street, Wellington. A special thank you to the organisers for allowing this event to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: October 2023
TEXT: Waerea i raro, Waerea Ki Waho [00:00:30] Oh kahui o nga riki Maie tawhiwhi atu ke matua Hei Whakawata ke i runga o te rangi, Kei ngā pito maha o te whenua, Kei ngā tini wai o te [00:01:00] moana. E rungo, whakihiriaki ki kua wātea, ho! [00:01:30] [00:02:00] [00:02:30] Welcome, welcome, welcome to Inside Out's [00:03:00] 10th Birthday celebrations. You can totally make noise if you want. In order for us to begin our proceedings appropriately, we started off with a wairea. Wairea to clear the air, clear the space. Did you hear how quickly the noise and the energy went? That is the power of tikanga Maori. Following the wairea, we had a karakia. That karakia is to set the [00:03:30] intention of our night. To bring together all peoples under the banner of this kaupapa, this kaupapa that we are so grateful to have each and every one of you present here. In order for us to kickstart our kaupapa, we have the beautiful Tiwhanawhana Ropu Kapa Haka ke konei, uh, hei tuara mā tātou. Um, and, uh, who better to speak on behalf of the ropu than our beautiful, beautiful, beautiful Māreikore e tuana ki konei. Nō mā. Give it up for Tīwhanawhana. [00:04:00] Kia ora koutou. Ko tā mai nei i tēnei wā. Um, uh, we would like to, um, acknowledge, um, uh, inside out on their birthday. Uh, we've got a lot of history with, um, with, um, inside out. Uh, we've [00:04:30] had Hui with inside out, uh, on tapa. Uh, we've gone and we've, um, And it's always been our pleasure, as, as, as it ought to be, to go with the, with these wonderful young rangatahi when they go on to Horouta Marae and, um, and, uh, and sing a waiata, go on with them, sing a waiata, and then lead them to do their work. And, and, and it's always been a pleasure and it's, um, and it's always nice to see West Abbey. She's somewhere here. Oh, there you are. Sorry, [00:05:00] darling. Um, yeah, so, uh, Emi, uh, Nunu, Kia koutou. Um, um, I've met you so many times, and you're, and you're just, um, a lovely, um, young lady. So, um, we're gonna do a couple of waiata for you. Uh, uh, So, [00:05:30] [00:06:00] [00:06:30] [00:07:00] Yeah, wait. Woo! [00:07:30] [00:08:00] [00:08:30] Mo o oké, Mo o oké. Eh'aha te mea nui ko te alo. Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah. Ha'a'ea mai tata, mai ki a'o. Ka piri taua Ka wai Ko mei ra te [00:09:00] tangata nui, aroha He aha ko takeru, he mui no, he koreru taua e [00:09:30] And thank you. Thank you so much for joining us for Inside Out's 10th Birthday [00:10:00] Celebration. We are all so grateful that you're here and tonight we will be leading you through the festivities. How are we doing tonight? I don't think I felt that in my soul, I felt it in my body, but not my soul. Can I hear that again? Okay, okay. Kia ora, tēnā tātou. Um, sup fam, I'm Cam, I'm uh, I think that's the bit that I'm at. Kia ora. Ke kuna, [00:10:30] kuna tāku, kia ora kia ora, technical difficulties, I'm the difficulty. Kia koutou, my name is Amber, I'll also be one of your MCs this evening. And I am Keefa. Um, as mentioned in our invitation, tonight has a theme inspired by a well known tōngi kura. Which is a form of like or a prophetic type of saying where somebody had this inspiring thought that they could, um, and they saw the [00:11:00] future. And this is the that came from that. Um, the is, there is, but one eye of the needle through which the white, red, and black threads must pass. This Tongikura, or prophetic saying, as Cam was saying, uh, was made by Potatau Te Whirowhiro, first Māori king, in 1858, at his [00:11:30] koroneihana. It speaks to unity amongst everyone and between tribes. So the black thread represents the past and all of the people who've come before us and who have set the foundation for the present. Uh, the red is the present and specifically the chiefly lineage under all of this kaupapa. Um, and the white represents the future and what is yet to come and also. Eternal Enlightenment. Kia ora. Kia ora. Ooh, we felt that, Kia ora. Can we hear another? Kia ora. Kia ora. Tēnā mai [00:12:00] anō. So tonight, we ask you, as you gather under this space, To reminisce on the past and celebrate those who have come before us and laid the foundations upon which we stand upon. We enjoy and celebrate tonight's party as a culmination of the, of all the important rainbow people in, uh, Te Whanganui a Tara. And that you look towards the future and what more can be done for the next generation. Nō reira e rau rangatira mā, we welcome you, we welcome you, we welcome you once more to our, [00:12:30] to this shared space of ours. Um, and we give a big mihi to our hosts. At, uh, I know how to get here, uh, 257, the design office space for allowing us to use this area and to not only instill more Modi and more spirit into these wars, but also to be supported by those that have come before us in this space that have allowed us to be here today. Um, so to begin, we will look at our humble beginnings and, uh, we've, uh, um, [00:13:00] Of Inside Out and how it came to be. Um, and who better to speak on this, on this kaupapa other than the founder and director, Tabby Best. Applause I'm going to take these off so I can't see. Laughter And I can read my phone, it'll probably be easier. [00:13:30] I am the [00:14:00] black, the black thread tonight. Thank you all so much um, for being here tonight to celebrate this occasion with us. It is just so wonderful to see, oh dear. So who had 45 seconds down? Okay, bear with me, it's going to be a wee bit of a long talk. Um, and I'm going to try very hard not to cry any more than I already can. Um, [00:14:30] yeah, it's amazing to see so many people that have contributed to the organisation in so many different ways tonight. Um, as those in the organising committee have kind of borne witness to, I felt very daunted, um, every time I thought about having to do the speech. You got this. Ooh, yes. That sounds good. Thank you. That's fun. Um, I think that's just because there are just no [00:15:00] words that could sum up like, all of that history um, adequately. So, it feels like a task that you could never perfect, but that's okay. Yeah, so while I've often been the public face of our organisation, Inside Out Koaro is the product of so many people over the years, so many that when we tried to put together an invite list I got super overwhelmed because I was like, I'm never going to remember everyone. So many people ended up just putting on Facebook, hey have I [00:15:30] forgot you, if you want to come please message me. And all of those people wouldn't even fit in a room like this, so, um, thank you to the, the special ones today. Um, but also let's keep in our minds all the people that couldn't be here, especially those all around the Motu that, um, couldn't make it. Um, we are a much bigger team now than we were when we first started ten years ago as six, um, six people sitting around the table. Um, but the tale of our beginning started first with my own journey growing up as a queer young person. [00:16:00] When I was nine years old, I remember me and my best friend getting called lessies at our Anglican primary school, um, in a small town in England. Um, this was done as if it was a really terrible thing to be. In 2006, um, a year after moving to Aotearoa, I attended a school that was rife with homophobia in kind of a small town. Um, in 2007, I was really lucky to get to move to Nelson and attend what we know was the first school in Aotearoa, um, most likely the Asia Pacific region, to have a rainbow diversity or queer straight alliance group. [00:16:30] Having kind of come from environments where I'd kind of had to repress my sexuality due to the kind of, the context, the homophobia, um. Uh, when my friend suggested going along to this, um, group, I initially convinced myself that I was going along as an ally to support them. I can assure you that did not last for long. Um. The group is now known as Naland Pride, it was then NAGS, Naland Alliance of Gays and Straights, later changed to [00:17:00] Queers. Um, uh, it was set up in 2003 between a gay student who was being, um, experiencing homophobic bullying at the school, and a school counsellor who later, um, when she kind of saw the inside out, had started emailing me and letting me know that she was an out lesbian at the school, um, as well, and that was a really important part of the history for me to hear, um, and I think important to honour here as well, because that's kind of where this all, all came from. Um. Having that group in my school provided me for that safe place to just kind of, yeah, be who I was, [00:17:30] um, be proud of my queerness, um, but it also led to a lot of, um, infuriation, just kind of learning about the inequities, um, present for our communities, and it kind of fired me up to start change, um, start fighting for change. I went on to become the leader of the group, um, became increasingly aware that our school and the space that we were creating was not like other schools. Um, as one of you out young people in my community had lots of people coming to come by to me, um, seek support. [00:18:00] It's worked out, so just in a couple of weeks we'll finish my counselling and detections degree. We've got some good practice, um, so it was really great that our school could be that place. Um, and we did start to have young people moving to our school, um, so that they could be more openly themselves. rangatahi. So, um, I went on to be involved alongside many others in helping, um, the other schools around the Nelson Tasman region to set up these [00:18:30] groups in their schools, um, and then we set up QYouth, which is a community organisation, uh, I think it's about 13 years old now, um, still going, um, that runs after school youth support groups, um, training the communities, range of events, and just incredible activities, um. Um, yeah, so, um, was lucky to be one of the founding board members and later co [00:19:00] chair for Q Youth. And after I finished high school, they, um, very thankfully for me employed me, um, part time and yeah, I got to start doing that youth work and started to hear from young people across the country. Um, who were having really, really tough times in their schools. A lot of it was things like school principals saying, no, you can't start a group, not allowing that space for young people to come together. There was a kind of sense of, okay, well it's awesome we've got kind of all the [00:19:30] support in Nelson now. People thought that was a bit weird. It's, you know, a bit of a conservative kind of place. Um, yeah. So it was sort of like, okay, what about the rest of the country? So, um, one night I was sitting in my room with my friend Tommy from Wellington. Um, he was part of a QSA up here and we were preparing to run a workshop for one of our Hui at QYouth about, um, yeah, QSAs and that kind of youth leadership, um, vaguely recall our conversation saying, I wish there was an organization that would support and advocate for young people to lead, start and sustain those [00:20:00] groups and make their schools safer. It was one of those ideas where you're kind of like, Oh, wouldn't it be nice if someone did that, but I can't remember a lot about the conversation, but I really don't think I thought it was something I could or would go on to do. One day at work at Q Youth, I shared this idea with my colleague Seb, and he jumped on it with much more enthusiasm, um, well, a lot of enthusiasm, and much more experience than me in the NGO world. He said, let's do it. This was in 2011, so technically we're kind of [00:20:30] 11 years, but we're, but today is 10 years since we got our approval as a registered charity in Aotearoa, so that's why we're celebrating the 10 today. Um. Seb took the lead initially and, um, found some funding to go on an assembly tour of some rural schools in Aotearoa alongside Blake Scalarup, who was an Olympian, um, gay speed skater from New Zealand. And they, um, went and talked in these rural schools from Kaitaia to Invercargill about homophobic bullying. Um, we had both planned to leave our roles at Kewth and [00:21:00] move to this beautiful city that we're in now, the next year, um, but at the end of the year, Seb decided to move to Melbourne instead. Um, at the time that contributed to a lot of self doubt and nervousness, how could I, at the time I was a 19 year old queer woman, um, start something like this and get people to take it seriously, take me seriously. Um, over the last 10 years through doing that I've developed skills in so many areas where I often joke that most workplaces would have like 50 people to do the job I do, [00:21:30] um, probably all with university degrees, um, let's just say I don't think my teenage self who hated maths would ever have thought I know as much about accounting as I do now, um, but now I know that the way this has all happened was meant to be and it's really contributed to our strong kind of bi youthful youth approach. A big lesson I took from that experience was that if you've got an idea, something you're passionate about, even if you think it's wild, you have no idea, um, how to do it, don't have the resources, share it, start talking [00:22:00] about it, um, you just don't know what might happen. And if the first plan falls through, that doesn't mean it's the end. I really want to acknowledge, unfortunately they couldn't be here tonight, but um, Marnie Bruce Mitchell and Tommy Hamilton, um, for their support in the first stages of our organisation's life. They were our first, um, executive advisors on our board of trustees, so they're kinda, um, over 27. Um, for folks. Um, and at the time, Marnie was the executive director of Intersex Aotearoa Trust, and Tommy was the director [00:22:30] of Rainbow Youth, so. Um, I just really wanted to acknowledge the mentorship of Marnie, um, Tommy, and also Elizabeth, um, Kevin and Te Whanau Whanau. Um, so that's just been incredibly vital for me, especially in the early years of, um, Inside Out, as a wee, wee baby making mistakes. Um, I had the privilege of meeting all those humans, um, in my teens, kind of through National Kui Kui that would come together and, um, started to build working relationships. I have really fond memories of, um, Marnie [00:23:00] taking me to the bank. Um, hosting us in the office. Staying up talking with Tommy until at least 2am as we did our final rounds of Is Everyone Safe? and Embedded Art. Um, shift hui. Um, getting emotional like I just did at the end of one of our hui and Elizabeth telling me to stand in my mana. Um, Kevin taking time out of his weekend to come and teach our roku waiata. I also wanted to acknowledge the late Kathleen Quinlivan who I first met at high school when she was doing research on rainbow [00:23:30] diversity groups. Um, I was briefly part of a network called SS4Q, Safety in Schools for Queers. Um, Kathleen, Marnie, Tommy and others were. Um, also involved in, and that was a collaboration across organisations, um, that advocated for safe schools for both rainbow young people and rainbow teachers. Um, and it was agreed to kind of, to wrap up SS4Q at the time Inside Out Koaro started. Kind of, um, that. Those people were involved sort of acknowledging this time for more youth leadership in that space to kind of take the arako from there [00:24:00] um, and the hope that having the infrastructure of a charity would kind of help that more. But it's really important to me to acknowledge the advocacy work that was done four years before our organisation popping up um, whether that is in the education space like SS4Q, um, but also things like the AIDS crisis, um, homosexual law reform, um, the kind of finding spaces for reclamation and um, Decolonisation of kind of our history, um, like the long standing Hui Taka Tāpui space, um, [00:24:30] or all the small communities and organisations that have been built around the country, um, that have given queer people a sense of home. So to those who have mentored and supported me, I cannot thank you all enough. Thank you very much for your time, and I hope to see you again soon. Thank you. Particularly for the [00:25:00] leadership you have and continue to demonstrate for our communities. Um, sometimes people remark about, um, how I have kept up this mahi for so long. You are the people that come to mind when I think about that. I've been doing this for decades. And just hope for the, the, um, rangatahi, like our future leaders, that I can give them just some of the same api that you have [00:25:30] all It's so hot. Um, being led by young people has always been central for our kaupapa, so I also really wanted to acknowledge our first youth trustees, Griffin, Tommy and Joseph, who are all shared in this vision. I revisited some emails from around the time we were first starting recently and came across an email thread from the start of 2013 that contained 32 emails just trying to schedule a board meeting. [00:26:00] Our current board would be horrified by this. Including Joseph actually saying that they would be in Nelson and their internet wouldn't be good enough to Skype in. So I kind of thought that as a little story in itself showed how much is just Um, and the ways, ways that we work. Um, I also really wanted to acknowledge, um, Oh, there's so many people. But, um, particularly Alex, um, Jay, Neo, Kate, Compass, Maggie, Connor, [00:26:30] Um, and the many others who I first got to meet when you were all in high school yourselves, Um, and have gone on to witness you become incredible leaders and advocates for our communities. Um, okay, trying to get to the bumper. Um, um. A few, uh, memories come to mind as I reflect on the 10 years, um, been. I've tried to not put too many in because this is already going to be too long. Um, of course, I kind of have to start with our shift hui. Um, give, give a little wave, yell if you've [00:27:00] been part of Shiftui in the past. Yeah, um, we like to sort of refer it as Inside Out's favourite project. Um, and that's where we bring young people from around the country together to be on marae for several days, um, taking part over the years in workshops ranging from kind of... Um, intersectionality in rainbow communities all the way to how to change a tire. Um, the talent show that pretty much goes to 1am without fault. Um, although when we did it online it was a lot faster. Um, [00:27:30] and how participants can articulate how much it has meant for them to just be in that space for those three days. Um, how it has transformed them and given them hope for their futures. And, um, for many of them the lives we get to see them kind of go on to lead as well. Um, the year that I did not put a closing date on the registration form, we had 180 people turn up, aka complete chaos. Um, after that we were like, okay, there's a limit. Um, and in recent years, um, through the COVID pandemic, moving [00:28:00] to, um, hold, have to hold that space online, but still learning how we can create such incredibly powerful connections. And that's still same sense of whānau and community, um, digitally. And so now we're looking at moving forward, hopefully doing one in person and one online each year, and it also helps create more accessibility for our communities too. Um, before we had staff based in every region, we would do outreach trips across the country, which was always a lot of fun. Um, like in Queenstown, where a group of us decided we should most definitely relocate our office to a boat on the [00:28:30] lake. That one has not, not gone past the board. Um, I remember, um, Emmett and I meeting with the Catholic Education Office in Otatahi and making them take a photo with us in the rain underneath the organisation's sign, um, because it was such a big deal for us that we were, you know, having that conversation, building that relationship with them. Um, I just love meeting so many people all around the country who, um, are doing their bit, I guess. So many people in schools and communities, um, like the school dean who makes scones [00:29:00] for their QSA every week, um, known as scones squad, um, this family in Gore that welcomed Emmett and I into their family home to stay, having never met us, and were just so lovely and fed us, um, yeah, there's just countless of those examples and, and people, and I think that's. That's, yeah, that's also what contributes to change, like we, yeah, we need that community, we need those, that person in Gore doing their bit, um, to, yeah, to really have an impact. I remember one year taking [00:29:30] a, um, having a bit of dread about taking part in a pride parade, um, but then seeing the faces of the young people that, um, lined the streets to march with us and just getting so many warm fuzzies, flags, and just seeing that pride in their faces and kind of recognising how much, um, that meant to them. I've really enjoyed presenting workshops to all sorts of audiences, getting to speak, um, everything from all of the chief executives of the public sector to, um, a few months ago getting to speak in a church to an association of retirees in Upper Clutha. Um, that was an [00:30:00] interesting one. But in more recent years my role has become much more about supporting our team to deliver the mahi on the ground. I don't get to do so much of the fun stuff myself, but that in itself is also so special. Just last week I got to sit on a rangatahi advisory group meeting for our healthy relationships program that's in development. I just felt so grateful and proud to, um, see the beautiful work that, um, Dando and Johan were, um, kind of doing to hold that space, uh, let alone the [00:30:30] incredible contributions of the participants. And that's a, yeah, a project that we're really excited to, to kind of implement in future. Um, and a few of us discussed this and we decided this had to make the speech highlight a few months ago. Um, our team all got to delight in was the work of. Edie, who's going to be our new operations and engagement lead, um, who mildly accidentally accepted a donation of five pallets of Lego. Which is a lot, and we really want this to go down in the organisation's [00:31:00] history. We've still got some, including Queer Eye Lego sets, if you want some. So, before I finish, I must give some more thanks, um, to our current board and all those that have served it previously, many of you in the room. Thank you so much for your dedication to our kaupapa, um, and the strange magic we have together that always seems to bring us to the end of a board meeting more energised than when we came in. Um, to those that have chosen to invest in us, whether that has been 1 or more recently [00:31:30] hundreds of thousands, um, thank you for seeing us and recognising the importance of the work that we're doing. Particularly to any earlier funders. Thank you for taking a chance on us in a time where there were hardly any paid rainbow roles in the country, uh, where most rainbow orgs were solely run on volunteers and most of them young people themselves. And for many years, um, volunteers inside out were entirely kind of fundamental, um, to what we were able to do. And those volunteers took upon huge responsibilities. So I just wanted to say to all the volunteers that have supported, um, our here across the years, thank you. [00:32:00] Yeah! To our staff and contractors, I am so proud to lead an organisation that has all of you in it. A really unexpected highlight of my time with Inside Out, especially these last few years, has been getting to employ so many queer people. Often young people. Um, in preparing for this event, I found some, um, photos of post its from a strategy who we held back in 2015. We had, um, a post it with, or [00:32:30] probably quite a few, with funding for paid staff and an office space on the wish list. Um, it's quite mind blowing for me to look at how we've kind of gone from zero people, um, in paid roles to now, including, you know, a good chunk of them are contractors on eight hours a week, but now it's over 40 people, um, that are paid to support our mahi. People frequently compliment the amazing team that we have and often amongst ourselves we joke about how we hire the best people. But that's really no joke. You're incredible and make such a difference to people's lives and the [00:33:00] work that you do in particular. I wanted to really acknowledge Alex, Neo, Emmett and Rosie, who have all been amazing. Um, around in one way or another for at least half of this journey with us. Um, thank you so much for your passion and, um, Um, ongoing commitment. It's not, not always easy in, in the NGO world. To the other rainbow organisations and community partners we work with, like Te Whanau Whanau and GMA in the room tonight, Um, it is a privilege to work with you to make things better for our communities. And in recent years we've been really [00:33:30] increasing the ways that we collaborate and support each other. And I'm so excited for what we can, um, continue to do. And achieve working together. Finally, um, Well, there's still more to go after that, but Finally, for the thanks, um, To some of my best humans, Tarn, Jess, Grey. [00:34:00] Thank you, for consistently being there for me. And, can't see you, but Thank you to my sibling, Dylan. I love you. Um, for being on the queer journey with me all these years and always trying out with the best vegan trips for us. Whether that is a wee hangover cake after shift or the incredible spread that they've done tonight for us as well. Um, [00:34:30] do not want to see my face right now. Almost there. The landscape has changed so dramatically since our organisation first began. We've seen really key legislation pass marriage equality, um, very recently, the conversion prohibition bill, the BDMRR bill. We've seen the government slowly, [00:35:00] slowly start to invest in some rainbow organisations, um, name us a lot more and consult, um, with us on social policy. We've seen Aotearoa go from this kind of handful of, um, schools engaged to the point where we're now working in over 360 schools nationwide. Um, and over half of New Zealand secondary schools taking part in our school's Pride Week campaign and running their own Pride Weeks. Um, and many primary and intermediate schools contacting for us to support, for support. I remember a few years in a strategic [00:35:30] conversation being like, there's just so much to do. We don't know if we can like support them too. We've got to kind of focus with it, you know, the ambulance, the cliff, which is the secondary schools. And that very quickly changed and we just support all schools, which has been incredible. Um, we've gone from doing one off trainings on a whiteboard, um, where we felt that we had to share our personal coming out stories to build compassion in our kind of audiences, um, to being the main provider nationwide for Rainbow Takatāpui and MVP FAFPA's competency training in workplaces and organizations. We've seen hundreds of young [00:36:00] people go through our Shift Hui program and go back to stand stronger, um, in who they are and to create change in their own communities. We've developed resources and videos that speak to more marginalised experiences in our communities and have been used to help educate others, um, both here in Aotearoa, but also, um, many times overseas. So, I was asked to speak to the past, so I will let others speak more to the future, but I will end by sharing just a very small amount of my hopes. Moving forward, um, something that is really important for me and the rest [00:36:30] of our organisation. Um, is to keep moving steadfast on strengthening our commitment to Waitangi and our approach to supporting those in our communities facing multiple marginalisations. I really hope that we can lead forward through the challenges we face currently from anti trans movements and that we can bring the majority of Aotearoa with us in protecting our trans communities. I really hope that we can sustain funding and jobs for people, uh, so that nobody else coming into the war ever has to have a job description as expansive and ridiculous as mine has been. [00:37:00] And we're, we're changing that, it's good. I really want to live in a country where every rainbow young person knows that they are loved, that there is a future for them, where their human rights are upheld, and they are safe to be who they are. And I know that Inside Out Koaro will, um, keep working towards this for years to come. I couldn't possibly imagine where we would be in another 10 years, um, where we are now. It was beyond those kind of wildest dreams. Um, we just [00:37:30] hoped we might have an office and move out of my hallway. But I am very excited to be on the journey to find out. Thank you for bearing with me through this. Nō reira, tēnā koutou, tēnā tātou katoa. [00:38:00] Um, so we actually have a birthday cake here, um, where we, where Tabby will be gifted with the honor of Ka on behalf of. staff and inside our board. Um, and I think [00:38:30] just before we do the cutting, can everybody stand up and we all sing happy birthday together. Yeah, let's get some praise and some celebrations up in here. Can I hand this out to the korokoro tui and amongst the audience? My voice is not, it's not doing great things. So can somebody else kick it off for me, please? Happy Birthday to you, Happy Birthday to you, Happy Birthday dear [00:39:00] Vincent Armstrong, Happy Birthday to you. Hooray! Hooray! Hooray! Here's to the many more. More birthdays to come, the many more people to meet and the many more celebrations to have. Māori ora e te iwi! Nō reira, you may be seated if you [00:39:30] wish, um, except for Tabby. I'd like to now, um, introduce Brock Stobbs, chairperson of the board, and Afi Marshall, youth trustee of the board, to come up here and have a few words. Kia ora. Kia ora everyone. Um, thank you all for coming out here tonight. Um, it's so amazing to see everyone here. I don't know if it's the caffeine or if I'm very nervous, but I can feel my body shaking. But um, [00:40:00] yeah, as Tabby said, um, we wouldn't be here without everyone in this room. Um, it's been a long ten years. I've been here for only three of them, but they really do fly by and Even in that short time, we've seen so much growth and our community has grown so much larger. Um, however, I would also like to take this opportunity to acknowledge the one person who has been through it all. Who has led this organisation [00:40:30] through these 10 years and has really, um, just brought us to where we are today. And that is Tabby. Um, we wouldn't be here without you. Um, and yeah. And it's, there are really no words that can thank you enough. And no gift that will compensate all the hours you've given to this organisation. Um, please don't overwork yourself. But um, we have a [00:41:00] little token of appreciation. Um, it is a portrait of you from Cosmo Bones. And... Um, around it is a whakatoki that the board felt really represented your work. Um, I don't have the translation on the back, but I have the English one. Those who lead give sight to those who follow. Those who follow give life to those who lead. And we thought that just really represented sort of what you do for [00:41:30] this org, which is... You know, give life to all these young people and support them so much and in turn they really. Give the energy back and make inside out what it is. And so we just want to thank you so much. So this is a song that is usually well known around the Motu and that each and every one of us were seeing. There is one change that we've made to the kupu [00:42:00] in order to be more inclusive of our brothers, our sisters, and those who don't identify within the binary. Um, so that as gender, um, uh, all encompassing. Ka pai. So instead of e tama mā, wāhine mā, we've gone with koutou mā. Ura. So once we do that, , when you get there, it might sound a little bit funky on the first jam. Second jam will all be sweet. [00:42:30] Ro stand up and let's all sing this song together. Ra. But 90. [00:43:00] [00:43:30] [00:44:00] [00:44:30] Hey, yeah, yeah. What's going on, what's all the talk of? Kia ora, Kia ora, Te [00:45:00] mana motu ake me te aroha. Kia ora, Kia ora, Te mana motu ake me te aroha. [00:45:30] [00:46:00] Thank you again so much, Tabby. That was a lovely speech and I promise it wasn't too long. Um, also, can we get a round of applause for Afi, who is our lovely guitar player and singer. Thank you so much. We appreciate it. Very nice. Very good. Um, next up, we'd like to invite Dr. Elizabeth Kerekere to come speak. Um, so a [00:46:30] round of applause, introduce her please. Kia ora in all the different ways that you identify and express yourself. But a special shout out to Tabby and the Power Femmes in the house. Now I went and got this job that sometimes Things change quickly and I do have to run to the house as soon as I finish talking. And I wanted to do lots of reminiscing. We've known Tabby [00:47:00] and members of, who were nags, who went into Q Youth and into Inside Out, but whakapapa is so, so important. Because it's not just about those relationships, boom, boom, boom. It's all the relationships that go out. It's the people you bring along with you when you do what you do. And I always say, find some mates and go for it. You did that. You've got some more mates, [00:47:30] and it has been a gift to be able to be part of this journey with this organisation. I remember going to a hui with Q Youth, back in the first hui that you did, and I was in my 40s, and they called me a kaumatua. I was like, calm down. But what I realised, and what I've realised, at hui after [00:48:00] hui after hui, that sometimes it was only me, Marnie, and shout out to, um, oh my god, to um, I'm looking right at you, and your name's just gone out of my head. I'm sorry. Annie. I totally know who you are. Uh. Sometimes we would be the only one there that was older than a teenager. And so I was like, oh, I get it. And, but that has been, [00:48:30] I suppose, what's been important to me. I came from being a youth activist myself. Nothing like this existed when I was a young person. I got lots of crap because I was femme and who did I think I was? People had lots of really craven suggestions of how I could be turned straight. And. It was always something that when I went on to found the Te Whanau Whanau and worked so closely with Kevin and the work that we do that from the beginning, because we bring those Māori values [00:49:00] into everything we do, then it's about whānau, that we as elders are always wanting to be here for our young people and regardless of the decisions, regardless of all the things you want to do, it's our job to stand there and support you and never 義務で一生懸命努力し You will know anyone who's been around me will say young people are not the leaders of tomorrow. They are the leaders we need right now. This room is full of those leaders, and I'm so so thankful for all of you. And we say when a [00:49:30] whanau is operating well, people of every generation have their place. They are valued, they're honored, they're recognized. We all work together. Together. And that's what I see that you do. You've made yourself part of our communities and connected in with so much of the work that we do. I could not do what I do in Parliament without all of you. And we don't know what's in this room and the ideas that you've had for a [00:50:00] little while. Do them. Um. Put it out into the universe. Whether it's your creation, whether it's something that you need people to help with, whether it's an incredible business idea that it's going to mean no rainbow group in this country needs to apply for funding again, let's do the thing. And whatever I can do to help with that, always, you know that I'm here. I want to just Modi. [00:50:30] We say mauri is that life force. It's that thing that we are born with and it dies with us, unlike weroa that exists beyond death. And mauri is the place where we can be seen, we can be recognised, we can be valued for who we are and everything we bring into the world. Inside Out has been that place. Shift has been that place for hundreds of young [00:51:00] people. Who some of whom are still alive today because of shift, because of inside out, for that reason alone, everyone who's been associated with this should be proud. It's my dream for all of you to grow old, to get your grey hairs, which you may color in any which way you like. [00:51:30] And to be someone who can be there and use your experience, your knowledge and your love for the young people that are going to come. A hundred years from now, there's going to be a group of young people looking at the photos from this event and it will change their life. Continue being the change maker. And sometimes it's not the big dramatic things. Let us always remember that [00:52:00] it's been in your family and someone makes that joke and you go, you know, what not funny Don't do it again in front of me So whatever it is we do in the world Some of you know I talk about the whare takatāpui, this whare of health and well being for all of us Based on the fact that our people accepted diverse sexuality and gender in this country before colonization Every single thing we do We help rebuild that whare, we make this [00:52:30] place, conceptual place. Safer, a more amazing for all of us, but actually we create a society that is safer and better for all of us. Nō reira, kia ora koutou katoa. [00:53:00] [00:53:30] Thank you so much for your wonderful speech and good luck with your next engagement. Um, uh, now next we have a panel of rangatahi who are going to talk about their mahi and how Inside Out has affected them and helped them. So Amber will be running this, um, and the young people's name, Alex, Neo, Jay, and Kate, would you like to come to the stage? Big round of applause [00:54:00] for them. So, we're now wanting to shift our vision a little bit more towards the present. What is happening now in our community and with all our fantastic rainbow rangatahi here in Aotearoa. And we have some of them here. Some of them the shift for a very long time. We had some of those names dropped in the first speech up here tonight. Um, would you all like to introduce yourself and share a little bit about what you do? Um, kia ora everyone, [00:54:30] um, ko Kate aho, um, I use they then pronouns, um, I was on the Inside Out board of trustees, um, from late 2016 to early 2019. Um, yeah, and since then, I guess, yeah, I've just done a lot of different like community organizing and kind of activist y work, um, here in Pōneke. Um, yeah. Yeah, Kate! Kia ora tātou, ko [00:55:00] Alex tōku ingoa. I use he him pronouns and I've been lucky enough to be part of Inside Out Kuaroa for eight years. Um, started off, um, when I was in my last year of high school in 2014. Um, and yeah, I'm excited to share a bit more about how. amazing and foundational this organisation has been, but, um, I, I'm a researcher, um, in sort of trans health and, and really keen to, yeah, support trans, um, health equity for trans communities in particular. Um, kia ora [00:55:30] koutou, my name is Neo, I use he, him, e, her pronouns. Um, I have been involved in Inside Out since I think like twenty... 16, 20 15. Um, when I was still in high school, um, Tabby helped me write a very strongly worded letter to my school, um, who were not letting us have a Q S A. And then I started volunteering in 2017. Um, and then they couldn't get rid of me. Um, and I'm now a staff member, um, which is so much fun. I am [00:56:00] really glad that I'm going last Hi, I'm Jay. I use they, them, or he, him, or also ear pronouns. Um, I was a, um, youth trustee on the board of trustees between 2016 and 2020, maybe? Yeah, it was a, it was a hot second. And I was chairperson for two and a half of those years, maybe? And at the moment I'm kind of like lurking. Um, I stepped off the board to pursue... my master's degree in marine [00:56:30] biology, which I'm handing in in January. And, uh, after that pursuing, um, a PhD in. Uh, chemical engineering, which I have absolutely no experience in whatsoever. Follow your dreams, kids. Um, yeah, but it's me. Thank you all for joining us today and sharing a bit. Oh, we're going back down the line. We can go wherever. Um, we would just like to know a little bit, um, about how your [00:57:00] experiences with Inside Out as a younger person has... Affected you now and affecting the work that you're doing. No particular order, whoever wants to a really serendipitous connection to Inside Out. I think Facebook post asking for models for the Day of Silence campaign. And then I think a little while later was on Breakfast TV with Tabby. Like really early in the morning. [00:57:30] So yeah, it was quite like a straight into it. But I've been involved with Inside Out in, in many different ways. I was on the board for three or four years, um, and volunteering before then. And, um, now am sort of, um, a contractor working on resource development, um, with the Ministry of Education, which is also an amazing, you know, relationship to have. Um, and I, I think I like to think of inside out, um, being, um, It's, I guess it planted a seed back in 2014, and it's just grown [00:58:00] as my life has grown, I've sort of, it's, it's been the tree, I guess, that, um, all these opportunities have come up from, uh, particularly, um, I think, through also, like, facilitating, for example, like, just having that confidence to stand up in front of people and Educate. I think that's really like sparked a passion in me in terms of like communicating our kaupapa and all the amazing, um, knowledge that we all hold. Um, and in terms of what I do now with also with research, like just having, yeah, this really, [00:58:30] um, I think deep sense of understanding of who I am, so that personal growth going alongside my maybe more professional growth, I guess, um, and yeah, I've had opportunities to present like in Dublin and Brisbane and conferences with Tavi and that's just been amazing to be like spreading those, those seeds, I guess, as well, um, and just like, yeah, seeing, I guess, bearing the fruits and all those, yeah. Metaphors of trees. I just really like trees. Um, but that is how, yeah, that's how I see it. And it's just, it continues to [00:59:00] grow, right? There's, it's, in a way it's sort of, yeah, there is so much more and so much potential. And yeah, I feel like I'm just going to be, you're going to be stuck with me maybe for a little while longer in terms of what's next. Um, but yeah, yeah, really, really, really grateful for Inside Akaroa. Shout out to Tabby. Thank you. Um, as Alex was speaking, I was like, that tree metaphor is so good, I can't top that one. Um, I feel like, coming to Inside Out as a really young person [00:59:30] myself, and still exploring that, like, my rainbowness, um, it's definitely, like, I've grown with it, um, a lot. Um, like, I've come to, like, I've sort of grown a lot in my takatāpuitanga, um, and sort of my own personal identity. Um, and then, like, if you'd told, you know, 15 year old me that I could get a job in this, like, working at Inside Out being, we like to joke that we're all professionally gay, um, and that's just a little bit wild that that [01:00:00] is something that I can do with my life and that I can take those experiences that I had, the good and the bad, and, um, help. You know, people in similar spots to me. Um, and just to really, you know, take, take the experience that I've had and bring it forward and help other people with it, I think is a really big thing for me. Um, yeah, I mean, like so many other people have said this evening, literally being part of Inside Out and seeing how it's progressed over the [01:00:30] years has been really life changing. Um, I started straight on the board as a very fresh baby volunteer after the aforementioned extremely crazy shift hui in 2016. Um, Like, I think I was, that was my first volunteering experience with Inside Out. Um, and then I dove straight on to being on the Board of Trustees, which is very classic for people who know me with a Capricorn dominated chart. It's just a bit much. Um, so I really, um, had no idea what I was in for, but it was a very, like, it was good. It was good to be thrown in the deep [01:01:00] end of, like, board stuff. Like Tabby said, in the very early days, we were very, like, struggle to organize a single meeting, um, and you know, I don't know what it looks like now, but we kind of implemented a lot of really good policies and things. A lot more efficient. Yeah, that no one really wants to think about, um, the glamorous stuff aside. Um, and yeah, just like, besides the kind of like skills that other people have spoken to in terms of like, Um, doing heaps of public speaking and [01:01:30] having amazing opportunities to speak to people overseas and meet other like minded folks and develop my kind of personal confidence. Um, I, yeah, like, like Alex, I also figured out that I wanted to be an educator, like, and kind of delved into that a lot because of my experience with Inside Out. I teach today operationally now, um, and have for a few years. Um, Literally being part of Inside Out helps me figure out that I have ADHD. Shout out to Maggie and Compass for that really great [01:02:00] conversation after a little volunteer hangout where I was like, hey, you guys have ADHD, do I have ADHD? And they were like, yeah. I'm watching you after a 45 minute meeting, like, yes, you have ADHD. Um, and even, yeah, literally, yeah, it's so true. We're on the board together, so. Yeah, I mean, even though I'm kind of just like, lurking at the moment because life, you know, happens and it's hard to give energy when you're stretched thin in other parts of it, um, I don't think I would be the person that I am today without My Time On [01:02:30] Inside Out and meeting all of you lovely people and building a community. Um, and I definitely, I'm getting choked up now, I didn't expect that. Um, I definitely am extremely grateful for everything that this organisation has given me. I'm going to stop talking now. Come over here, Jade. Yeah, I think I definitely agree with what? Everyone else said um, yeah, I think for me like it's like a few different things Like I think joining the [01:03:00] board like like Jay like it was such a shocking thing to step into this role. We're like Your opinions were, like, taken very seriously and, like, people, like, wanted to know what you thought and, like, valued it and then, like, would action it and it was just kind of, like, Oh, like, people think I'm responsible and I can make choices and, like, and it was just, like, not something I'd experienced from, like, adults or, like, seeing, like, peers kind of do consistently and so it was just really, like, Uh, like validating and like gave me a lot of affirmation at the time to be like, Oh, maybe I kind [01:03:30] of know things. That's cool. Um, I think as well, like for me, like the time that I was with Inside Out, like those couple of years, I was like, Going through a rough time, I think, as a lot of us do when we're kind of like, you know, 18 to like, early 20s, it's, if you're not, you know, dealing with your queer stuff, you're dealing with other stuff, and it can be quite intense, and I think for me, like, Inside Out was such, like, a stabilising force during that time, and was just, like, just, like, one of the most consistent things during that period of my life, that, [01:04:00] like, kind of actually helped keep me afloat in so many ways, so I think I feel very, like, grateful in that aspect. Um, And then finally, I think, in terms of like the mahi and like learnings from working with Inside Out, like, to what I do now, is just just Like just around like sustaining well being and political movements. Um because I think just the seriousness that Inside Out takes in working with Rangatahi and working with volunteers and like just people's well being [01:04:30] and safety and hoarder and like was just so like groundbreaking and just kind of like has influenced how I like Work and every kind of like organizing space or kind of like, like socially and within my own life and just remembering that, you know, welfare like becomes before the work and, you know, it's not just about like what we're doing and what the cause is, but it's like how, how are the people feeling who are doing it? What do they need to succeed? Um, and that's something, yeah, that I carry all the time. Yeah, that's [01:05:00] just smoothly move on before I start shedding tears. Um, Thank you. Last but not least, we would like to know if you have any messages to pass on to our future rangatahi, now that we're shifting that focus forwards to the future. No, no pressure starting off. I guess like, cause I, I was here for the fifth birthday as well, and I was just like, reflecting a lot on like, I, again, like, not all of y'all know me, [01:05:30] but, um, since I dropped off the radar a little bit, I have had a very large glow up, um, and so, like, yeah, and so, I kind of like, was reflecting, I was like, you know, I'd seen a photo of, like, the fifth birthday party, and I was very kind of like, in a lot of very dark colours, and obviously, I'm not sure what I am living my best tropical bird life at the moment. Um, I kind of, um, I guess was a very, very different person, [01:06:00] as I said earlier, when I started my work with Inside Out. Um, and even since kind of like stepping off the board and pursuing post grad and like I've had many, many, many life changes. Um, some good, some bad, but I guess. And in one of them, for example, I'm just like bragging about this because it was my third, third month on T yesterday, so I'm just like... Let me get in front of an audience of people I sort of know and sort of don't and just brag about my life now. Um, I... [01:06:30] Uh, I make jokes when I'm nervous, um, I, like, an example that I didn't foresee was that I was, um, part of the crew alongside Alex who helped the folks at Vic get, um, HRT services set up. And at the time I was like, no me, who me, I would never want to go on hormones, I just don't want to think about that, I'm in a relationship with a cishet man, um, and I started that process obviously a few months ago, and I just. Was like, oh yeah, I did that. Um, and [01:07:00] you know, being at such a different stage of my life, even a few years later where like I'm utilizing the things that I helped to set up. Um, and like from a, outside of the big picture perspective, the personal perspective, seeing like, well that has made such an impact for me in myself. Um, nepotism, you know, that's the only reason you do anything is fear around benefit apparently. Um, but yeah, I kind of, I guess like the takeaway from all that is that even when. When I was on the board with Inside Out, I kind of felt very [01:07:30] much like this pressure to be a complete and, like, finished person. Um, but everybody's a work in progress, and I think that you're always a work in progress, and that's a good thing. Um, and, like, the people that you meet along the way, and the awesome things that you get to be a part of, like, where, I know that this is really cheesy. Um, but where you can, like, being part of something, being yourself is always really special. Um. And, yeah, I guess just like, be [01:08:00] excited about the journey, um, and relish in your messy incompleteness. I don't know how to phrase it more poetically. That was phrased beautifully, thank you. So many half formed thoughts that I'm struggling to put into words, you know. Um, I think, thinking back to what, Um, you know, like 14 year old me just starting [01:08:30] to interact with Inside Out would love to hear from me now is like, um, you can make changes. You don't have to just look at the world and be passive and say, okay, this is what the world is, but instead you can actually do things and you can change it and you have the power to, to make the world better. And I think I want to tell, you know, any. Rangatahi starting to get into this space or, um, speaking to the, the, the, the younger [01:09:00] person inside you that needs to hear it is that you will find loved ones and family and friends who will accept you and love you and you will find spaces to be safe and to be happy, um, yeah, and that You, you will become the you that you're meant to be. Yeah. I'd like to, um, I guess say to all the tahi out there that [01:09:30] I, I, I'm. When, when people question or don't listen to young people, that really, really gets me going. Um, and I just want to say like, despite, you know, if, if you're facing challenges in terms of people not believing who you are or questioning your identity, like just, you know who you are and you have that core inside of you and like that, that could very well evolve and change. And that's amazing. And, and knowing that if you are like, if that's something that you're coming up against in [01:10:00] terms of not being. Uh, believed or listened to like that there are. Organizations or your chosen whanau or whoever it is outside there, that like, for example, with Insider, you know, like having, like for me, having that, um, consistency, you said, Kate, like the knowing that they'll have my back. So, you know, where possible, if you have the resources or, you know, ability to, to get involved with, with community, um, find that, and I know that's really hard for some people who are particularly isolated, but just that holding onto that hope that you do know [01:10:30] who you are and that, like, just. Not listening to the noise of people who say otherwise, really, yeah. Um, yeah, I think the things that I was thinking about saying have been said, but I guess we can repeat them. Um, yeah, I think. Just kind of what you were saying, Jay, around, like, it being okay that, like, if you don't necessarily know, like, your full identity or where you kind of feel, like, I think I also [01:11:00] felt, like, a lot of the time that I needed to know exactly what my queerness was and what that meant and, like, what Like who I wanted to be and like all the stuff that it like is still evolving now like many many years later and I think that just like knowing that you actually have so much time to actually go on that journey and you don't need to like like lock it in and put it on Instagram and like let everyone know immediately which is what I did and it was not not a good choice um you Yeah, so just like give yourself that time, whatever that looks like for you. Um, and then [01:11:30] I think also as well, what, what Alex was saying around like community and like community is like everything. And like, if that's just like you and one of the friend at school or like you and like a A forum online or like it's a QSA group or it's a kapa haka group or it's just like anywhere like you can find it and like build it and foster it is like dive right in like it will save your life. So yeah. Kia ora. Thank you all very much. I think Inside Out is a beautiful testament to what [01:12:00] a community can do. I think we, uh, not only have you gifted our whānau, our friends with Um, your attention, but now you're going to give them with some energy. So, the way of the tautoko whānau, let's take a trip back. To the straight side of 2019 Tik Tok. Now, it was an interactive song and it's a Neko song. I'll start it off and y'all just um, send your energy out. Ka pai? That's gonna be our way of sending our energy to our whānau, offering, [01:12:30] acknowledging them and giving thanks to them. Ka pai? Flee! Flee! Flee, fly! Flee, fly! Flee, fly, float! Flee, fly, float! Oh, oh, oh, oh. [01:13:00] Oh, oh, oh, oh S oh oh oh s. Give it up for Alex Neo Jay. And cheer also. So while the chairs are being moved and our, um, beautiful, beautiful speakers are coming up for this next segment, I wanna [01:13:30] introduce you to. Three things. The first is called A'i'o. A'i'o means peace, calm, tranquility, kapai? So the way that we can be at peace with one another and engage across the, um, across each other is when I go A'i'o, we'll just repeat that over and over again. Do you want to give that a go? I didn't hear an enthusiastic yes. Yeah, tell her. We're going to give that a go. [01:14:00] Aiiio. Cool, that was item number one. Item number two are called Gentle Minimal Encourages. Kapai. You might see these on news, that spoken word poetry places. We finally just do this. Can we do this? Kia ora. That's your way to live, to serve and give energy, without doing this. [01:14:30] Kapai. So if at any point in this next segment you'd wish to give some energy, we can just do this. Kapai. And then the third thing is called a Wiri. You know what a witty is? So this, not this, this is a wi, the wi in ta Maori is a very significant action. You'll see it at most kaka performances, and the story is far too long to go through tonight. However, in the, um, URI community, so this is how, um, our wau who are without, [01:15:00] um, hearing. Give applause, kapai, and so that's another extra thing that you can put in your kete if it wasn't already in it tonight. Now, I know that that picture is very much serving in memory of, however, our whanaunga, our whanaunga just couldn't physically be here today. Our whanaunga is Iwha. Iwha was a previous shift hui attendee who wrote a beautiful piece that will be shared with each and every one of you today by the amazing, by the courageous. [01:15:30] Give it up for Aoife's poem, done by Beer's Voice. The best temporary home I've ever had. I have never felt so normal. I hid myself in my own bedroom, trained to feel watched, taught to be afraid. Do you know what it's like to never feel safe? My life has been me in one big empty ocean of cold, of alone. I have been lost in the waters of cis society [01:16:00] so long. I almost convinced myself that I was part of it. But I have never been a good liar. Coming out was the most painful thing I've ever done, but it was the first time I ever felt warm. I'm not always sure I would do it again, but I would. I would for my ancestors who have been forgotten, who died with dead names on their gravestones. I would for everyone who comes after me, that their journey may be easier than mine. I've always had a home, but I've never had a home. What does that even [01:16:30] mean, home? It means this. It means safe and warm. It means happy and loved. It means feeling your hands on my back wherever I go. Shift Hui is the first place that has ever felt like home, like safe, like love. Like everything was worth it all for this. This has been a great big burning raft in the middle of this big empty ocean. I will never stop being grateful. Grateful for the things I have learned, the stories you have shared. The legacy [01:17:00] that lives on through us. I didn't think I would make it past 14. And now I see the future in your faces. He aha te me nui o te ao. He tangata, he tangata, he tangata. We are the people. Mauri ora. I think we can give some proper applause for that. Yeah! Woo! [01:17:30] Next up, we've had a little bit of a look at the past. She had some tears. Had a look at now and what's happening in our community and now we want to shift our focus towards the future and what we, as Inside Out, as the queer community of Aotearoa, can do for all the rangatahi coming after us. I would like to introduce Afi, the current youth representative? Youth trustee! Youth trustee! Oh! Come on up and have a [01:18:00] speech, my dear. Just pull up my little speech. Uh, yeah. [01:18:30] Um, Hello, my dear friends. Um, I descend from Ngati Pikiao, Ngati Mahuta and Ngati Ngamirikaitawa, who in turn descend from the Te Arawa and Tainui waka. Um, so all around the Rotorua, uh, Waikato and Waiariki regions. Um, I grew up in the, the mighty Te Tai Tokerau, but now I live in Tāmaki Makaurau. Um, and I've been a member of the board of Inside Out since February this year. Um, and for all of those whom I haven't had the pleasure of meeting, I'm [01:19:00] Awhi. Um... Yeah. So I had been seeing for a while on Instagram, the advertising for a youth trustee, uh, for several months. And I kept seeing it and I was like, nah, nah, I'm not like, I'm nowhere near qualified enough. Like I've done nothing with my life. I'm just like a high school student. And then I kept saying it, and I was like, Oh come on, if they're still looking, like, I'll I'll apply. The worst that can happen is they say no, because I again, have done nothing. And then, I got an interview, and I was like, oh okay. And [01:19:30] then I did the interview, and they were like, oh okay. And then I waited a couple months, and they said, Oh, we've decided to accept you. And I was like, oh! Okay! So I the deep end a little bit. Um, but yeah, my experience has been incredibly fun and rewarding. Um, and I've met a ton of cool people that I know that I'll, I'll have in my life, um, forever. Um. Yeah, so the theme of this event is past, present, future. Um, Nira. Uh, we've heard from Tabby, our incredible founder and managing director. [01:20:00] Um, and Faye Elizabeth, our staunch advocate in Parliament. Um, and our panel, Levarangatahi, about inside out in the rainbow communities past and present in Aotearoa. But I'm here to talk about the future. I'm currently the youngest trustee and one of the newest. Um, And yeah, I want a future in Aotearoa that little me would grow up in. I'm excited to see a future that I would want little me to grow up in. [01:20:30] A future where queer young people can grow up in loving environments, can go to school, feel safe and comfortable with being themselves. Ultimately, we're all here with a common purpose, a collective kaupapa holding us together, the future of rangatahi wānuku, rainbow young people. Like many in our community, I grew up in a harsh and unaccepting environment, which delayed my coming to terms with my identity. I simply didn't have the language to describe the feelings that I knew were real. And once I finally did, it wasn't safe for me to be myself [01:21:00] publicly. The Rainbow community and the Inside Out whānau have welcomed me into the fold, and I've experienced such manaaki and awhi from those who have been supporting me, because ultimately that's what community is about. Coming together to support and raise one another up. It's about whanaungatanga, manaakitanga and awhitanga. Ti koha o tinira, the eye of the needle, is taken from the whakatauaki spoken by Potatau Te Whirowhiro at his crowning as the Māori. He said, Ko tahi te koha o tinira, e kuhuna ai [01:21:30] te miro There is but one eye of the needle, through which the white, the black, and the red all must pass. It speaks to kotahitanga, unity of ngā iwi Māori, just as it speaks now to the unity throughout our rainbow communities. We are all part of a greater community, travelling through the eye of the needle. The challenges we face every day in our whānau, our wahimahi, our kura, and our wider hapōri. Yet we each make up individual threads that are vital to the strength of the whole chord. We each have [01:22:00] a part to play, whether it is the pango, the past, the whiro, the present, or the mā, the future. No one is more important or vital to the kaupapa than anyone else. In fact it was the son of Potatau, Kingi Tawhiao, that said, If a read stands alone, it is vulnerable. If it is, if it is in a group, it is unbreakable, much are woven together to form incredibly strong [01:22:30] bindings. We two must come together each providing our unique gifts and talents for the CO to the Copa, for the betterment of our collective future. However, it is important that we honour those who have paved the way for us, who have enabled us to stand where we do, and who guide our futures. I mahi to those who have come before me, and to those that will come after. To Tavi especially, the extent of your commitment to Rainbow Young People and the sheer amount of mahi you have put into this kaupapa can never fully be appreciated. [01:23:00] Rangatahi are our future, and I'm so proud of the mahi that we do to make growing up in Aotearoa safer for our rangatahi whenuku. I mahi to all of our staff, volunteers, our managers, our school coordinators, our national staff and my fellow board members. I mahi to those fighting for spaces and places where we have not historically been represented like our rangatira, Elizabeth Kirikiri. I mahi to all those who cannot be here today, and all those we've lost. I mahi to all those yet to come. I'm excited to be part of the future of Inside Out Koaru. And the wider community, the [01:23:30] wider rainbow community, and cannot wait to see what it brings. Ngā mihi me ngā manaakitanga ki a koutou katoa. Applause Ngā ue, tātou, tātou ue [01:24:00] [01:24:30] Thank you again so much, also in English. Um, we're very lucky to have you and yeah. Um, if some of you may have noticed when you first came in, uh, we will forgive you if you didn't because we forgot to say anything about it. Um. Uh, there were some prompts for [01:25:00] people, uh, were invited to share their thoughts about their hopes and dreams for the future of Inside Out, Rangatahi, et cetera. Um, we will be keeping these for, um, hopefully the next, the next birthday party. So if you haven't written one now and you'd like to, um, have that included, please write one on your way out. We would love to hear your thoughts and it's lovely to see and you get all sorts of warm fuzzies from it. However, we have picked. Some of the ones that have already been written to share with you now, to give you some ideas and to, [01:25:30] um, get you thinking about your hopes and dreams and what we want to all carry forth into the future. Okay. Some of the ones we found that we liked, uh, we liked all of them. Okay. Um, so first off wishes and hopes for the future, for the queer community, Mahi that Inside Out can support or do themselves. First off, an organisation specifically for [01:26:00] disabled rainbow rangatahi. Better integration for rural rainbow humans. I hope to have no job because it is no longer needed. Mana motuhake. Land back. More settlement options for queer refugees. [01:26:30] Takatāpui representation in kura and media. Thank you. We would love if everyone could put their wishes on the board. Um, these wishes are going to be kept until the next birthday, as Kepa was saying. Hopefully many more birthdays to come. We want to keep adding and collecting until we've got just a horde of wishes to take us to the future. Rainbow organization and a rainbow [01:27:00] community. Can we get some music going? Team. Kia ora, kia ora. Oh, we forgot the karakia. Ke te pai, we can do that now. Le rā te mihi. I'll just tell everybody now. te whānau. Um, let us do a karakia, [01:27:30] and then after the karakia, we have an amazing, dazzling performance for you all tonight. Um, but what I'd love to do is get each and every one of you to stand. Get our next slide up on the screen. Kia ora. So you could either choose to read the words that are beautifully displayed on the board to my left, your right, or you can close your eyes and copy what you hear come out of my mouth. So either or, those are options for you. mā. We'll go line by line. So I'll say a [01:28:00] line and then you repeat what you've heard. Ka pai? How does that sound? Shweet, shweet, shweet. Also we do have translations available for after so that you understand everything that has been said. Um, and we thank you, each and every one of you mā. Me karakia tātou. E ngā Ngā tuākana uenuku Whāngaihia [01:28:30] o tātou wairua Hei mahia te mahi nui Nā rātou i whakatakoto Ki whakatakoto, te ara, ki a maama ake, te hairenga, mā tātou, ngā mokopuna. [01:29:00] Man. Kia tau te pono, Me te pono, Me te aroha, Me [01:29:30] te aroha, Ko ia rā, Ko ia rā, E rongo, E rongo, Whakaiʻira ake ki runga, Whakaiʻira ake ki runga, Kia tīna. Kia tīna, tīna, tīna, haumi koutou. We thank you, the Inside Out Koaro board and staff. Thank you for being able to take the time out of your precious days and nights, as we seem to be in, and for coming to [01:30:00] help us to celebrate. The past, where we've come from, looking at our ancestors and those who have paved the way for us to be here. At our present, where we are all standing in, alive, thankfully, we are all standing alive, standing next to one another and celebrating this moment, this being the 10th birthday. And for gifting us with your hopes and your dreams for us to carry into the future.

IRN: 3527
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093073
TITLE: Jacquie Grant ONZM
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VOICES: Jacquie Grant
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1950s; 1960s; 1970s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Australia; Backbencher Gastropub (Wellington); Bill Bain; Bistro bar; Bumper Farrell; Carmen Rupe; Carol Byron; Carol de Winter; Cees Kooge; Chevron Hotel; Chris Laidlaw (Dr, Australia); Chrissy Witoko; Chrissy Witoko and Carmen Rupe memorial seats; Cuba Street; Darlinghurst Road (Sydney); Don Neil; Doodle Inn; Dorian Society; Drag Queen; Egypt; Egyptian themed; El Alamein Fountain; El Matador; Eldorado; Emmanuel Papadopoulos snr; Empire Room; Exotic Aquariums; Ferry building; Gay Liberation Wellington; Gina Lamore; Glover Park; Golden Egg (Upper Willis Street); Grand Hotel; Grant Robertson; Great Northern Hotel (Auckland); Grindr; Hutt boys; Jack Goodwin; Jacquie Grant; Jacquie’s Coffee Bar; Jewel Box Revue Club (Sydney); Karen Chant; Kings Cross (Sydney); Kings Cross Theatre; Lady Jac's; Les Girls (Sydney); Lily Pond (Great Northern Hotel); Long Bay Jail (NSW); Lotus Restaurant; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Member of Parliament; Mexicali (Lower Hutt); Mojo's (Auckland); Mongrel Mob; Māori; Māori Concert Party; Natalie Parker; Nicole Duval; Pasi Daniels; Phil Warren; Powder Puff (referred to as the Powder Poof, Wellington); Psychedelic Id; Robert Muldoon; Roy Stacey; Royal Oak Hotel; Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar; Sorrento Coffee Lounge; Stewart Dawson Corner; Sunset Strip; Suzy's Coffee Lounge; Sydney; Tavern bar (Royal Oak Hotel); Tete a Tete; The Balcony / Le Balcon; The Purple Onion; Tiny Tina; Tutankhamun; Union Hotel (Otaki); Victoria Street; Vivian Street; Vladimir Putin; Wally Martin; Wellington; art-a-rama; art-a-rama of poses; beats; breasts; clothing; consorting (crime); consultancy; corruption; education; fag hag; gay liberation movement; head shaving; homosexual law reform; hormone breast; hormone treatment; indecent stripping; masturbation; media; monkey; murder; offensive behaviour (crime); pasties; police; police harassment; religion; resilience; right-wing ideologies; rock n' roll; sailor; screw (prison guard); sex change; sex work; ship girl; ships; social change; steak; street queen; striptease; topless restaurant; trade; trans; transgender; turf war; victim; wharves; zoo
DATE: 30 September 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Jacquie Grant talks about teenage years in Sydney, her time in Wellington in the 1960s and 1970s and her friendships with Carmen Rupe and Chrissy Witoko.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: December 2023
TEXT: Well, I grew up in Sydney. Well, I was born in Victoria, but, um, went to Sydney when I was about 10 to live with my grandparents. And that didn't really go too well. So by the time I was 12 or nearly 13, not quite 13, um, I was living in King's Cross in Sydney. And is this, what decade is this? This is the late fifties, early sixties. Can you paint a picture for me what the, the, the [00:00:30] cross was like in the fifties and sixties? Oh, it was pretty vibrant. Um, you know, there was the odd, odd machine gunning of people in half in the main street and, and, um, sort of turf wars, I guess. But, but for trans people it was exciting. It was terrifying. It was the only place that we could really go and congregate and be with other people like [00:01:00] ourselves and, and I don't know how, um, people seem to be able to, to be like moths to a magnet. When they don't know anything about it, but, but that's where we're all gravitated to and it's very similar here in Wellington Back in those days people gravitated to Wellington and how and how and that comes about I really don't know, but it's like an internal magnet or something that you know You must hear a little [00:01:30] snippet here a little snippet there and that's that's the place you go if you like that The cross was, was exciting, but, but, uh, would have been great if the police weren't so active. And, and of course we were fair game being in drag. Um, even gay, gay, gay guys were, you know, I mean, I don't need to talk about New South Wales or Sydney and, and the legendary police murders and all those sorts of things. But that, that was all happening at that time, lots of [00:02:00] corruption, um, on the, on the side of the police. Um, and they had a law. Which is probably the one that affected any trans people, or, we didn't call ourselves trans in those days, that, that hadn't been, even been invented, we just called ourselves drag queens. Um, the terminology for trans and transgender and transsexual, that all came sort of later down the track. Um, [00:02:30] The lawmakers had made a law called consorting. If a police car was driving past and they saw you in the street, they would lean out the window and just go put their finger up and point at you. And the consorting law was if two known criminals or people of ill repute or whatever their target was, were seen talking to each other, they were, that was consorting. And it was a three strikes and you're out. Act. [00:03:00] So on the third time they saw you, they arrested you and the charge was offensive behavior. It wasn't consorting. It was offensive behavior. It was, it was obviously offensive for two drag queens to talk to each other or, you know, and it was a way of the police clearing the streets, I guess. Um, so, so on your third time you'd be arrested, charged with offensive behavior. You'd go to court, you'd be fined 10 pounds or five, five pounds. Five [00:03:30] pounds or 10 days in prison. And once you had, I can't remember whether it was three offensive behavior charges or five, but I think it could have been three. Then you got an automatic three months in prison. Uh, And it was pretty bloody tough because that's what happened, you know, and we all had to live like that and sort of dodging the cops whenever you could, but you [00:04:00] never could. I mean, they always got you. So for the cops was Was it just, I mean, was it sport for them? Oh, absolute sport. There was, there was one, um, cop in Sydney by the name of Bumper Farrell who was very notorious and, and, um, quite famous in the end. Um, he, he used to do it for sport and he, and he'd round up all the queens and the hookers and, um, put them up at the top of, [00:04:30] um, William Street. Which is a big hill, goes right down. And, um, he'd say, if you can get to the traffic lights down by Bourke Street, then I'll let you go. If you don't, you're back in the van and you're busted. You know, it was all sport. It was all sport. Um, sport and corruption. If you had some money on you, you could pay them and you could get out of it. They'd take your money, but, you know. It wasn't a nice way to have to live. No, I mean, for you as a young trans person, [00:05:00] I mean, how did that impact you? Oh, I don't know. I've always been a bit of a lateral thinker, so I was always trying to think of ways to get out of shit. It affected people in the way that, if you were trans, that was some sort of built in inherent thing that you were, you had to be, so you couldn't go out and just say, dress as [00:05:30] a guy and have a normal job, because that wasn't in your psyche, so that wasn't, I guess it was an option for some, but, but, you know, and we hear about these people that say, Okay. I'm 65 years old now and I, I was a woman trapped in a man's body and all that sort of bullshit. Um, it wasn't an option for us, um, and, and my peers were all the same. We were, we were drag queens. That was, that was the end, end of it all. But you [00:06:00] couldn't go to school, um, Because you'd be arrested. School would ring the police. You couldn't even go to a doctor. I had a doctor before I was in drag. I had a gay doctor. Chris Laidlaw, his name was. Nothing to do with our Chris Laidlaw. That was his name. And fine as a doctor when I wasn't in drag, the minute I got into drag, Rang the police. You know, got a drag queen [00:06:30] here. This was a gay guy. And so like, what would he expect? So the two communities didn't, didn't really mix in those days. There was the odd ones on the fringes of each, but, but as a whole. Gay guys did not mix with drag queens back in those days because they'd be sprung. And they didn't want their cover blown because gay guys were probably more susceptible to being arrested and beaten than we were. But, you know, after a few years of that I got sick [00:07:00] of it. Well, we all did. Um, we'd met Carmen, who was, she'd been, um, in Auckland, got into some trouble, fled to Sydney. So it was the other way around. Um, and We were all at Carmen's place one day and the police raided her flat actually. It was just behind the Alamein Fountain. It was a place called the Chevrolet's Private Hotel. And, um, the cops are coming in one door, we're all [00:07:30] running out the back door. And we'd just had the conversation ten minutes before. There was myself, um, Gina Lamour and Natalie Parker. Um, about Carmen was going back to New Zealand. She wanted to get back. Um. And that's where we should go, you didn't need a passport to come to New Zealand in those days, you just paid your plane fare and got on the plane in effect. And um, anyway, the flat got raided and, and, um, Carmen took off out one door, we, we were off out the next and we [00:08:00] decided that was it, we were going the next day and we all sort of split up and, and um, Gina and Natalie ended up going to Wellington. And I ballsed it up. I got it wrong. I went to Auckland. Um, and I'd asked a friend, you know, where was the best place in New Zealand to go and she said Auckland, Auckland. So I ended up getting a plane to Auckland. So I was in Auckland for probably a year before I got to Wellington. And they were, they're already down here. I [00:08:30] just want to backtrack just a wee bit. And I should just also put on, on, on tape that we are under the flight path of the helicopters that go to the hospital. And so that's why the helicopter was flying over. But when, can you remember the first time you met Carmen? Yes, I met Carmen in the Annex nightclub in Sydney in Darlinghurst Road. It was, um, There was a midnight, midnight movie theatre, picture theatre in the middle of [00:09:00] Darlinghurst Road. And the Annex Club was a hidden gay club, it was like a speakeasy from the Prohibition days. Um, you bought a special ticket, and it was, I think it was two shillings or something. It was quite a lot of money in those days to get in. And um, you gave the usher the ticket and they walked you right up the back of this theatre, up the, up the ramp, and you went right up to the very back row. Then you went along to the left, and you went into a door, which was [00:09:30] then closed into a dark room, um, and it was soundproofed, and then another door was opened, and that was the little club, and there was about 50 or 60 people in there at any time. Um, and I was sitting in there, uh, with some friends talking, and, and, um, This amazing looking guy walked in, and it was Carmen. Carmen was working as a waiter at the Chevron Hilton Hotel at the time, [00:10:00] and I should say he, at that stage, had, um, A waistcoat, a brocade, waste waistcoat, um, an umbrella which he used as a walking stick. Um, immaculately dressed and stunning striking, very striking looking person. I said, who's that? And they said, well, that's Trevor. He's from New Zealand. He's a Maori. I said, what's a Maori? Are they from New Zealand? I said, I want one . [00:10:30] I think that was my. When I fell in love with the marry race. Um, and later on that night, Carmen and I caught up. Um, Carmen, by that time had got into drag and, and, um, you can do it. So can I love. Um, and that was, that was where we started. We, we were friends from that first day. Um, we sort of clicked and that's how that all started. And that was about 1958, [00:11:00] I guess, 57, 58. So could you live full time in drag? Or did you have to do that where you would like have a waiting job and then you would do drag at night? No, no, Carmen did. Um, but Carmen had been, Carmen was eight years older than us. Had come from Tamranui. Um, had been in the army. Had been conscripted, I think, into the army. Um, Had sort of lived a bit, you know, quite a bit more [00:11:30] than we had, was a little bit more worldly wise. Um, and was sort of half and half. We're, we're, we all sort of, in that original lot of us, and there was Carlotta and, and a lot of those old lay girls. Girls, we're all the same age, we're all, you know, 78, 79, um, now, um, we all sort of started out at the same time, really, in the Jewel Box, which was, this is, the Jewel Box was the [00:12:00] first drag show club in Sydney, and that was back towards the Alamein Fountain from the Midnight Movie Theatre, and right opposite where Lay Girls was built. Lay Girls hadn't been built at that stage. Um, and that was about a year after the Jewelbox was running that Sammy Lee and Reg Boom, who were the two entrepreneurs that started Lay Girls, must have thought there was a dollar in it and, and they built the, um, what became Lay [00:12:30] Girls and became very famous. And they really picked the best queens from the Jewelbox and around the place, you know, the top. Top ones that were really great, um, Carlotta and all that lot, um, and they did the show there. But you know, they used to get chased by the police too. They'd have to get dressed as boys to leave the club. And if they did go and drag, they'd run the gauntlet. The cops would be parked outside waiting to see who they could grab. So, [00:13:00] um, but it was still exciting. It was, there was a real sense of community. We all had each other's backs and, you know, it was the same here in the early days too. Can you recall, were there any, um, older queens that you, you kind of looked up to or? There was, there was a couple. Um, there was one, um, Karen Chant, who's still alive in Sydney. She's, she's got to be in her nineties now. Um, Shara, I don't know whether [00:13:30] she's Dead or alive. I lost touch there years ago. Um, there were a few, and they were all named after movie stars back in those days. There was Lana Turner and, you know. So there was a generation before us that were even more hidden. But, but were really guys who worked as guys and got into drag rather than, although Karen, Karen Chutt was full time eventually. Um. [00:14:00] She wasn't when I knew her, but, um, she is still now. Um, so there was a generation before which were even a bit more hidden. And, closety. And then I think generations before that it was probably easier for them. So, in what way? Well, technology takes over things, doesn't it? When there's no technology, I mean, we see old photos pop up every now and then on the internet of, you [00:14:30] know, people in drag in the 1800s and all that, and it doesn't look like it was a big issue then, for them. Do you think, um, around the 40s and maybe a bit earlier that it was a bit more conservative? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I was pretty conservative when I was a kid. Especially Australia. It was I won't make that comment. I don't have [00:15:00] particularly fond memories of Australia and growing up there. So, you know. For me, life started when I got to Auckland. How, how was New Zealand sold to you? What, uh, how was it painted? Well, it wasn't, it was just I think, I think it was, for me, I had this dream, it was full of guys that looked like Trevor. Ha! And, and it was certainly freer and easier. There were no laws. It wasn't against the law to be in drag in New Zealand. That [00:15:30] was the big catch all for us. Um, we could come and we could live our lives without that, having that hanging over your head and being thrown in jail every time you were caught. Um, cause I got, I was the youngest person ever to be put in Long Bay Jail in Australia. Cause I lied about my li I lied about my age, so I ended up in Long Bay Jail. What age? Oh, 14. And, I mean, it did, it didn't. Didn't [00:16:00] harm me, but, you know, shouldn't have happened. Um, and then they did find out my age and they stuck me in a home for a wee while, but I escaped from there and, um, So tell me, what was it like? What were your first impressions when you arrived in Auckland? What, what was it like? Well, I, I arrived in Auckland, I, I got out of drag to go to do the fly, flight, but I had bleach blonde hair with pink tints in it. [00:16:30] And I got on an old, I think it was a Vickers Viscount, four, it was four engines on the plane, I remember that, and it took forever to get here. I didn't know where Carmen was or where, where my other friends were, Gina and Natalie. Um, I got to Auckland. I had five pounds. I'd sold things I owned and the day before to, to get the plane ticket and I can't remember how much, I think it was about 40 pounds or something. It wasn't that much, but it was a lot of money back in those [00:17:00] days. And I had five pounds left and I remember I got a bus from the airport. Might have been even been an airport bus, but I ended up in Queen Street, and I was holy crap What do I do? And I was absolutely petrified But getting off the plane It was really interesting because I must have looked a hell of a sight for all the straight people, you know business people traveling in there and, and the captain of the [00:17:30] plane came off at the same time and they handed you, they gave you these souvenir prints, Raymond Ching prints. And, and everyone in first class or something got one of these prints. I don't think I was in first class, but anyway, he gave me two of them, uh, and said, welcome to New Zealand. And I thought, oh gosh, this is friendly. Um. So anyway, I got into town and I went to a phone box and I found Kangaroo Hotel. And I thought, Oh my God, it sounds like [00:18:00] Australia. So I went and it was in Upper Queen Street and it got renamed as the Rembrandt Hotel, which was best described as probably Auckland's number one DOS house. Um, I got a room there and I think it might have been a pound for the week or something. And I went out and I bought some hair dye, um, dyed my hair, um, I bought a pair of shorts and some socks and I don't know whether I bought shoes or not, but I bought a shirt and I went down Queen Street and I [00:18:30] got a job in Keen's for Jeans, uh, behind the counter. Um, and I worked there for about probably six or eight months. Maybe nearly a year. Um, and sort of got myself reasonably established in Auckland. I remember the first week, I had no money left after buying the hair dye. So I starved for the first bloody week. I was so hungry, till I got paid. So, what year was this? That was 62. 1962, and what age? [00:19:00] Late 62, nearly into 63. And what age would you have been? I was born in 44, how old was I, 44, um, 18, 18, 19, yeah. And how was it to meet people? Well you know how gays meet people, back in those days. Um, cause I was out of drag for a year, a good year. Um, and I had to, I knew I had to sort of establish myself. I had to get [00:19:30] something behind me to survive. Um. And it took me probably nearly a year before I found Carmen. Um, she'd been in Auckland the whole year, but communication, we didn't have cell phones or anything like that. It was all just word of mouth. And, and I'd met a few gay people and we, we were friends. And, and then, um, tiny Tina, Pat Crow, who used to live in Wellington, um, Arrived over here [00:20:00] and he was in Auckland first, managing a strip club. Um, we sort of formed, you know, there was a little community of us up there, um, doing the beats and all that, you know, all the usual carry on. But it's interesting, um, I just want to, um, just unpack that just a wee bit because nowadays Um, it, it is quite different, so, so, how, how Well, you pick up your cell phone and go on the ride. I mean, back in the, back in the early 60s, how, like, literally, how did you meet people? Well, you hung [00:20:30] around parks or places that gays were known to haunt. Um, I'm not going to state the obvious for the record, but, um, that, that was what it was. That was, that was the, um, olden times equivalent to Grindr, was doing the beat. Um, the ferry buildings in bottom of Queen Street was a favourite haunt. There were, there were bars, there was, there was the Lily Pond, um, which was what was at the Great Northern Hotel in [00:21:00] Wellington. Um. You're stirring my memory banks here, I'm, ha ha ha. Um, and, and, I ended up, someone said to me, Oh, Carmen's working up in Grace, Grace Avenue. So, I trotted up there one night and I found her. She was, she was standing behind a tree. Um, And I found her and then we sort of all reconnected and you know, all that carry on and she said she was going to [00:21:30] Wellington and I, and Patsy, a friend of ours who you met last time had just opened a club in Wellington, a drag club, Nicole was already there working, um, and They'd opened it up as a drag show. Um, by the time I got there, the drag show had finished and they'd turned it into a strip club. And I got the job compairing. So, so, um, most of the drag queens were [00:22:00] gone. It wasn't advertised as a drag show though. Shit, I just buggered your microphone, didn't I? No, it's good. Oh, just, um, He loves his microphone. Uh, and, and so Carmen came down and, and was doing her thing down here and I came down, we started doing the strip club at the Purple Onion and then I [00:22:30] Through my night time earnings, I opened a pet shop in Cuba Street, um, next to the Lotus Restaurant, which is just about four doors from Scott and Mel's bar. And what was your pet shop called? Exotic Aquariums. And what did it have in it? We had, we sold pets and plants, um, we sold birds, goldfish, tropical fish, um, pet foods, dog leads, all that, all that sort of stuff. Yeah, and I [00:23:00] used to do a lot of window dressing at night because it was warmer inside than out. And in what years did you have that business? That was, that was the first thing I did when I went to Wellington was about 64. Did you have like a monkey in there? Yeah, that was the main attraction at the pet shop, the masturbating monkey. I always wanted a [00:23:30] monkey and I ended up when I, Was running the zoo. I had lots of monkeys and lots of pet monkeys But I always I was always loved those things. Um, I bought this monkey. It was a bonnet macaque from a little private zoo in in upper hut that was closing down and I Used to terrorize taxi drivers trying to get Put the monkey in the back of a taxi to drive, so they wouldn't take it. Anyway, the [00:24:00] monkey, the monkey had a terrible habit. Um, he used to sit in the shop, and people, it was a great attraction, and it was, and I did quite well with the monkey. But, um, the monkey had a habit of grabbing ladies handbags when they walked in the shop, and masturbating into them, and then giving them back their handbags. And it got to be quite legendary. I used to take it to the gay bar, the tavern bar, after work sometimes, and he really liked vodka and orange, and he'd run along the bar and just grab [00:24:30] anyone's vodka and orange. And snarl at them. It was a bit legendary. I ended up, um, I sold it to, um, the people at the Union Hotel in Otaki and it lived there for a long time. I think it eventually died, but yeah. That's one of many monkeys I had over the years. I just want to take you back to Passy, Passy Daniels. [00:25:00] Yeah. Did you know Passy before coming to Wellington? Yes, Passy was in Sydney, um, and he worked for a few weeks at Lay Girls. Um, and he did, he was a tram driver, um, in Sydney, he was married, um, he was a rock and roll champion dancer, um, him and his wife, Renita, um, but he did these drag numbers, um, A Foggy Day in London Town and he [00:25:30] came on stage with a plastic raincoat and an umbrella and he mimed this song, A Foggy Day in London Town. I don't know how he wrangled his way into there to doing that, but, um, he did. And that was, that was when we first met Passy, was before we'd ever come here. And then of course they were set up in the Purple Onion, um, which became famous and notorious all rolled into one word. Um, you know, it was sort of Well, it wasn't the first strip club in Wellington. [00:26:00] Um, a guy called Wally Martin, um, and Manuel Papadopoulos started the first club in Wellington in one of Manuel's restaurants in, um, Manor Street. Is it Manor Street? The one where McDonald's is now. Oh, yes, yes. Is that Manor Street? Uh, it is on the Victoria Manor Street. Yeah, yeah, down there. Um, uh, it was the El Matador restaurant, I think. The El Matador was And the El Dorado was opposite the door of the [00:26:30] Bistro, the Royal Oak Hotel, so it was either, either the El Dorado or the El Matador, got them mixed up, um, but they were all owned by the Papadopoulos. And so that was the first strip club? That was the first strip show in Wellington, that was. What kind of year would that be, do you think? Um, well it had to be, it had to be 1960, it was a year before I got to Wellington. It was a year before I got to Wellington, because that was how Nicole got to Wellington and then [00:27:00] Patsy came along and opened up and grabbed those girls when that all fell through. Wally Martin was an entrepreneur, he was the son of a judge, um, what was his name, Crutchley, William, Bill Crutchley was, was his real name. William Crutchley, and his father was William Crutchley, senior magistrate. Um, Ha! Wally, Wally had several places in Wellington. He sort of opened and closed them with, um, great [00:27:30] frequency. But he had the Psychedelic Inn up in Marjory Bank Street. And then he started a newspaper. A little Wellington newspaper for all the nightlife people. Um, and that was That was, and then he had a strip club, um, in Kerber Street, which was probably two doors from Scott and Mel's. And the newspaper was run upstairs, the strip club was upstairs too, and the newspaper was downstairs I think, I can't remember the name [00:28:00] of the paper though. So did you ever perform at, um, Lake Earl's or with Patsy? No, no. I did with Patsy at the Purple Onion, I did, I comped. For about probably 12 months. And what would that, what, what does comparing mean? What, what, well, it was introducing the acts and all the rest of it. Um, whatever you wanted to do, really, there was no format to that show. Can you describe, um, describe the act? I was never [00:28:30] very, very. Um, I wasn't a stage queen by any means, it was just something that I did because I had to make a living, get some money somehow, and I liked using the doorway of his club because it was quite good to, you know, do other business. Um, consulting business. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Um. Um. Yeah, I, I, I was never, I like to own the club rather than be in the show, [00:29:00] where, where, and of course the people that owned the club always made the money and the people in the show never, never got anything. So there was a downside to being the show girl. And I think Carmen worked that one out far too late in life. Um, really for herself. Chrissie worked it out right at the start. Um, and worked it well. She wasn't the show girl. Um, but Carmen was and it was all about the show. So can you [00:29:30] describe some of the acts that happened at the Purple Onion? Pretty amateurish. Um, I mean, sometimes any poor, any poor bint that was, that dared put her head through the door got thrown on the stage. It was the same as Papadopoulos Over the Road. Um, the Club Exotic, I mean, if you [00:30:00] put your head in the door, they'd throw you on the stage. Patsy sat at the door taking the money. It was the funniest thing out. Um, he had a little two. Headed record player there, he did the sound and the music. And um, he had, had a lady, Rosie, used to do the announcing. Um, and he'd be taking the money, and, and people would look in the door and he'd go, Packed, love, packed, [00:30:30] packed! He was always packed, even if it was only one person that was packed. Um, they did a thing called Artarama. Um, which was hilarious. Um, and remember in those days girls had to wear pasties and, and there was a few laws around, around that stuff. So, but I mean, the onion deteriorated pretty quickly, um, into, into something that wasn't particularly. Great, at the end, [00:31:00] um, Passy was out of it by then, I think, and he had opened another strip club in, just off Manor Street, um, was it Herbert Street? And the Tate a Tate, it used to be the Tate a Tate Coffee Lounge, um, owned by June Griffin. And Pasi and a friend of his, Warwick, took that over and had a strip club in there for a while. I think it was called the Perfume Garden. And, am I right in [00:31:30] thinking that, did, did Carmen perform at the Purple Island? No. No? Never. Even though we're told she did. And that she made toasted sandwiches there and coffees and I don't want to get into that territory. Well, let's, let's talk about the, um, things like the tete a tete, um, because The coffee lounge culture in Wellington was large at that time, wasn't it? Oh, it was incredible. Yeah. But the Tate of Tate was one of the originals. There was [00:32:00] the Mont Marie, there was Susie's, um, of course the El Matador and the El Dorado and, oh, there was another restaurant that I used to absolutely love down off, um, down off Willis Street, um, it was some sort of Hungarian restaurant, um. That was really, for a lot of us, that was all we could do, was that type of work. It was either [00:32:30] nightclubs or coffee bars, or, you know, the Sorrento was going, or the Sunset Strip was going when, when I got to Wellington. Um, Chrissie was No, she hadn't started, had she started there? She was still working on the wharf, but I think she might have been doing the sunset at night at that point, um, working there. And where was the sunset? That was in Gusney Street. It's [00:33:00] now a little park. Okay, is it Glover Park or? Don't know what it's called. But it's just by Cuba Street slash? To the left. Yeah, yeah, um, and it was a old two story sort of building was next to an old private hotel that's still there. Oh yes. Yeah, and that was a brothel back in the early, early days. Mar Hallam owned that. Um, and she owned one in Courtney Place. Um, the sunset was divided into [00:33:30] two parts. The original sunset, because there were two sunset strips. So the original sunset was just, was divided into two parts. It was heaven and hell. And all the, all the trannies and queens and seamen and You know, assorted sundry fag hags and god knows what all hung around on heaven and on hell was all the sort of gangsters and hoods and would be hut boys and you know, things like that. And it was run by the Coolman family. [00:34:00] And, um, John Coleman and, and his younger sister, Linda and their mother, old Mrs. Coleman, she, she ran these clubs. Um, and they had, then they opened up the powder puff, which we called the powder puff. Um, so we alternated between, between those two. Most of us alternated between those two clubs. They were the first two big ones. So that was the Sunset and, and the Powderpuff. [00:34:30] And where was the Powderpuff? Down where the library is now, um, in Victoria Street. And the Powderpuff, upstairs became the balcony. Carmen's balcony later on. Um, Carmen had her club but we didn't frequent Carmen's club. And I had a coffee bar at the same time as well, Jackies and Willis Street, next to the Grand Hotel. Um, I catered more for, um, What did I cater for? Quite a lot of trans, [00:35:00] mainly Maori trans, and mongrel mob members, um, well, anyone that wanted to come in and behave themselves, really. But, but it wasn't strictly gay, it wasn't straight, it was Carmen was pretty much strictly business people. She didn't cater for a gay crowd at all. You know, the odd gay ones would go in there. But it was all drag queen waitresses and glamour and she had that business [00:35:30] crowd. I had my crowd. The Sunset had its crowd, which was, you know, the hut boys and the ship girls and street queens and, you know. And then Chrissy, I'm getting a bit disjointed because it's hard to put things into time frames, but Chrissy and I had two businesses together. Uh, we ended up, um, getting the me coffee lounge out in the, in lower heart and we, [00:36:00] we ran that for about a year until there was gang war in the main street of lower heart over turf wars and, and they pretty much trashed lower heart, so we decided to have a hasty retreat there. Where was the mixer car? In, um, one street back off the main street in lower hud. It was behind Smith and Smith Glass. And poor old Smith and Smith Glass suffered badly because every fucking glass window in the place got smashed one night and that was the end of the [00:36:30] Mexicali anyway. Um, ha ha ha, it was fun while it lasted that one. Um, and then we opened the Doodle Inn, which was the first topless restaurant in New Zealand. That was right opposite the main doors of Parliament, um, much to the, Chagrin of a few MPs. So, would that be where, um, the back, back bench of pub is now? Um, probably next door, two doors up. It's, the building's gone, I, [00:37:00] I had a look a while ago. Um, it was, I had quite, quite a few re, different restaurants I took over. When places went broke, I'd go in and take them over and run them for a while. Run them more into the ground probably. But, I had the Golden Egg up on Willis Street. Um, it only had about six months to go and they were pulling it down and I had it for that six months and we did Maori, Maori food in that one. It did quite well there. All the girls used to come after [00:37:30] work and, you know, six fish and ten eggs and they're all dead now. You've got to wonder why. The cholesterol levels must have been incredible. Um, you know, a big plate of pork bones and puha and then fish and, fish and twelve eggs and you know. I'll not think about it. Um, but anyway, Chris and I opened the Doodle Inn. It was the first topless restaurant in Wellington. And, um It belonged to an old Hungarian guy who had a [00:38:00] restaurant in Courtney Place and it had closed down. He had managers in there or something, it didn't work out. It was a two story place, upstairs and downstairs. The kitchen and dumb waiter were all downstairs and the little entrance was downstairs. And then the dining room upstairs. Anyway, the, the We sort of had this idea of a topless restaurant and didn't know whether we'd get away with it or not. But, um, the Hungarian man had a booking for [00:38:30] the round table association and the round table association wasn't the business round table. It was the clerical round table. So we had all these. Priests and bishops and Church of England archbishops or whatever they were there and we decided and and the Press had already got wind that we're opening a topless restaurant We'd already painted this I had [00:39:00] the sign painted the doodle in on the front window which sort of was a bit risque in those days, I guess and We thought what the hell are we going to do and we got word that the police were going to come and raid it and You know charge us with indecent acts and things and I had these two waitresses jacked up one of them still lives in Wellington And she had the biggest biggest set of boobs you've ever seen in your life. She was gorgeous looking and I [00:39:30] won't say her name She's pretty well connected. We decided to introduce the topless waitresses on that night when the Round Table had their thing because we thought if they're going to arrest us, they're going to arrest half of the leading clergy in Wellington. That's probably not going to happen. So we rang up the TV people and the radio station and they're all there behind us. Anyway, [00:40:00] these poor guys didn't have a clue what was about to happen. I'll call her Mary. Mary had a big tray. Piled up with meals and the meal was breast of chicken. We thought breast of chicken was going to be appropriate. And in, in, she was holding this tray. She had this tiny little mini skirt, nothing on top. Um, except she had one breast in the middle of. Those two plates and one breast in the middle of those two plates and [00:40:30] up she dropped up the stairs and started putting their meals out with the straightest face you've ever seen and these poor guys were just And the, and the cameras and the radio people were right behind them asking them for comment And what could they do but just join in on the joke, you know, and we never got um, we didn't get arrested. We never got We never got a visit from the cops, but about three, we had lots and lots of [00:41:00] members of parliament, office workers, used to come in for a bit of a perv on the girls, but about four months later it mysteriously caught fire in the middle of the night and burnt down. I think Maura Bob Muldoon had something to do with that. He didn't like the idea of it, but we had lots of MPs sneak in, and we had no money when we were doing this either. So what, what used to happen, it was 10 shillings to get in, and [00:41:30] we opened at four o'clock, and by about four, five thirty, six o'clock, we were finished, we were done. Um, because there were no office workers left in town, and what they used to do, they'd come in in their raincoat and pull their coats up and they'd come in and they'd pay their ten shillings and go upstairs and sit in a corner, and we only had two things on the menu was steak or fish, so someone would come in and they'd order, we loved it when they ordered steak, because they never ate it, so we could recycle a piece of steak about six times during the [00:42:00] night. And if they ordered fish, Chrissie would run into the fish and shop shop next door and order a piece of fish and half a And I'd run up to the, to the, to the, cause we didn't have any money when we got there that night, you know, and so we had to buy the ingredients. I'd run up to the greengrocers just up the road and get a tomato and a lettuce. And we always had a bottle of mayonnaise. And we'd serve the meal. The meals always looked quite good. But they'd take one bite, the fish was buggered, you couldn't [00:42:30] recycle battered fish, but steak, you just trimmed her up and sent it up to the next one, and there'd be another little bit out of it, you'd slice out of it, and you'd send it back up again. And we did quite well doing that. And then we'd close up and we'd be off. She was working at the Stunset Strip as well at the time, I think. Um, Chris had a huge work ethic. She was the one with the work ethic. She didn't care whether she was washing someone's [00:43:00] dishes or what, as long as she was working. And you mentioned earlier that she, what, originally started on the wharves? Yeah. What was she doing? Cooking. Yeah. Her mother was a caterer. Um, they were, they were all cooks and, you know, cooks and musicians in that family. Um, but yeah, Chris Stardust, that was when I first met Chris, was at the Royal Oak Hotel at the Bistro Bar, um, and she wasn't a drag, she was, well, sort of, but, um, she had bleach blonde white hair, [00:43:30] she was very, very good looking when she was young, Chris, um, she had bleach blonde white hair, she had, um, tight, black tights, um, A jacket of some sort and a little Gladstone bag on her arm. She always carried this f ing Gladstone bag. I don't know what was in it. But she held court in the Bistro Bar. Do you know what that is or what it was? Tell me, tell me. Bistro Bar was the back bar of the Royal Oak Hotel. And the Royal Oak [00:44:00] Hotel had two or three bars. Um, the front bar was called the Tavern Bar. That was a gay bar. And that was run by two guys, Imre, Claude and Imre. For many years, Emery Toft, I don't know what Claude's name was, um, Emery was Hungarian and Claude was a Pom anyway. But the back bar was run by a guy called Bernie, who was very into whips and bondage, I believed. But anyway, big guy. The back bar probably seated [00:44:30] conservatively five, six hundred people. It was huge, and it went the whole You know that Royal Oak block down to Dixon Park? Well it went just about right to Dixon Park. There was a couple little takeaways. Just at the end, but that bar covered that whole whole area. Um, it was ginormous And there was one section where all the ship girls drank that did the Japanese ships there was another section where all the drag [00:45:00] queens were another section where all the criminals were There were no real drug dealers in those days. So this is all pre sort of Pre drugs, pre dope, and, um, I guess there was a little bit around, but, but nothing that we ever saw, um, I think the drug of choice in those days was people took pills, and then LSD came on the scene, and then sort of marijuana and stuff, so, So we missed, my, my generation missed all that. We didn't, [00:45:30] we didn't do that. We were good. Um, but, Chris. Chris was there every night, um, with her group, and it was quite a big group, and she ran that group. She was the head of the table. She was just the natural. the natural head of the table. And if anyone caused any trouble, my God, she, you know, she'd shut it down so fast. It wasn't funny. And she, she always had that ability. She had a pretty good left hook. [00:46:00] Now you've mentioned yourself, but also Chris and Carmen in terms of multiple businesses. And like in the sixties, was it, was it, was it? Was it kind of easy to set up businesses? Well, we were unemployable, really. Um, unless you got a job in a hotel kitchen or something, I suppose you could. But, but people didn't employ people in drag, you know. I mean, we were still a conservative, even though there were no laws against us, [00:46:30] and they left us alone, pretty much. Um, there was, we didn't get supported. We were Left alone, but we didn't get get supported like that I mean, you couldn't go off to get an apprenticeship or something and I guess there were exceptions to that rule There were people in drag and stealth and different things that did do some of those things But it was easier to own your own business to be your own boss and I think that's where we we got that sort of [00:47:00] ethic from was bloody easier to work for yourself than someone else I still think that. I can set my own pay rate. You've mentioned the Doodle Inn and, well actually before we move on from that, could you describe, what was the decor in the Doodle Inn? Um, Pretty mundane. We didn't do anything to it. It was a Hungarian restaurant [00:47:30] and it just had carpet and tables and chairs and sort of brown walls from memory. It wasn't exciting because you kept the lighting very dim too. Had a good kitchen out the back. Yeah, it was just, just a, just a restaurant. Yeah, nothing exciting. What about, um, uh, Jackie's Coffee Bar? Jackie's Coffee Bar was Egyptian themed, um, We had a big, um, It was quite, [00:48:00] quite large. It seated probably 150. Um, it was, it was, um, Goodman the furrier's workshop, originally, and I went to, old Mr. Goodman, who's a furrier for some reason, he thought I was quite cool, um, and I told him that I wanted somewhere to open a coffee bar, and He had two factories here, one in Manna Street where his retail shop was. [00:48:30] Um, Goodman Furs. Goodman Furs. And the workshop was up in, um, in Willow Street upstairs. And I was looking originally at, at, where his shop was in Mana Street to open something. And he said, oh look, why don't, why don't I move all my factory? You know, 'cause I wanted to, he wanted to downsize anyway. Um, move all the factory into town. Into Manor Street, and you, you can rent the Willis Street one, so I got together a [00:49:00] little consortium of, of, um, A guy called Bill Hornibrook. I don't know if you've ever heard that name. He was a big identity, um, gay guy, uh, gay, gay man who'd been married and family and all the rest, but he was the general manager of Burrows for New Zealand and based in Wellington. And his camp is a row of tents. Um, he was from the Case Cooge. Um, he was from that era. He died quite some years ago. But he sort of mentored me into some of that [00:49:30] stuff. Uh, and he got some of his workmates from Burroughs to invest in what he called an offbeat coffee bar. And, and all he wanted was a way in, a way to get in to find a bit of bloody trade. Um, and nobody knew he was gay because he was still in the closet. Um, but, but, yeah, and Mr. Goodman moved out anyway and it took me about probably a year to build the bloody thing, you know, and get it all up and running. And um. We ran it for a couple of [00:50:00] years and then I decided that it was probably a big mistake. Um, I was going to put a manager in there and we put Shirell in there who was one of the prominent sort of drag queens. Ran the house of Shirell, um, in to manage it and that didn't really work too well for us. But I, I went off to Auckland. Um, and opened Lady Jack's in Queen Street, which was the first, uh, exclusively gay coffee lounge in, [00:50:30] in Auckland. And from there, we built the Empire Room, which was in High Street, um, was an old supermarket in High Street. Um, did, put the drag show in there. Um, it flopped spectacularly. We couldn't get people to come in there. It was down an alleyway. And. Phil Warren came in one night, who ended up being Deputy Mayor of Auckland, or Mayor of Auckland, he was, he owned [00:51:00] clubs all over Auckland, um, he's dead now, and he said, I'm going to close Mojo's down, do you want to take that over and move your show into there? And so we grabbed that, and that was our last ditch stand, and that was a huge success, it went for about 10 years. Uh, we sold out after a couple of years, but that, that kept going for years. Nicole headed that, comped the shows there. Um, and that turned mojos in Auckland. Just, uh, [00:51:30] briefly getting back to, um, Jackie, Jackie's Coffee Bar. What years did that run? That was closed in 1970. One probably, um, 71, something like that. And the doodlin was 67, was it? No, it's before, just before Jackie's. It was just before. So it would be about 66? 66, yeah. Oh, okay. And [00:52:00] what was the decor in Jackie's coffee bar like? Right, it was, it was um, Egyptian themed. I painted this, oh god, I'm stressed over this f ing thing. Where all the lights around the walls were like those um, torches. Egyptian sort of, oh are they Egyptian or Italian? It was Egyptian anyway, these, those torch lamps. Um, with a wall mounting with a, with like a flame lamp, um, right round, [00:52:30] there was a jukebox, um, quite a big kitchen where we did toasted sandwiches and all the usual, everyone did toasted sandwiches in Wellington. Um, and I had a big photo, a big photo, a big painting of Tutankhamen's head on one wall that I did. Um, it took me weeks to do this bloody thing. I've never painted anything in my life before, I was copying this bloody thing, it looked quite stunning. Um, Pinball machine, four marker, four marker [00:53:00] tables, leather seats, fake leather seats. Um, like a great big sort of barn and, and big dance floor, you know, and of course when you turned all the lights down at night, it had a really good atmosphere and it was up a very narrow flight of stairs, so it was very easy to keep control of, um. You know, because we had a few gang wars on Willis Street, um, turf wars with the [00:53:30] Lebanese and the hut boys, trying to take over who was going to control the town sort of thing. So we had, we had a shooting on Stuart Dawson's corner from, from the doorway of our place, which was a bit embarrassing, but, um, yeah, and those turf wars sort of settled and. They carried on. They used to have them by Carmen's at one stage, Vivian Street. There was a lot of vying for control of [00:54:00] turf. And just confirming, the, so the coffee bar, was that on the left hand side or the right hand side? Yeah, next to the Grand Hotel. Which is on the left going down Willis Street. Okay. So as, as you hit towards what the old BNZ center you're, it's on the left hand side. Going down towards Stuart Dawson's corner. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Then, you know, about the club that was in upper Willis Street, the Dorian Society. Well, tell me [00:54:30] about that. What was your involvement? I used to go there. Um, The, the first Dorian Society, people, very few people remember that there was one before there, before there was one down in that sort of little mall thing in Willis, in the bottom end of Willis Street. Oh, the, the Willis Street Village. Yes, there was a Dorian Society before that, and it was in Upper Willis Street, and it was a little house, a little two story house. Um, and it was three, [00:55:00] it's all gone now because I've looked to try and work out exactly where it was. Um, And it was run by a few stall, very closeted stalwarts. Um, but when I first came to Wellington, that was it really. That, that, yeah, that, that was sort of the gay nightlife for gay guys. And it was manned by a guy called Don McMillan, who lived up off R. O. Street. Um, I don't know, have you ever heard Don's name come out? It's rung a bell, yes. [00:55:30] Um, very sallow looking guy. I used to buy plants for the pet shop off his father. Um, and Don Neil. Don Neil was, I think, in the Maori Concert Party as a drag queen. I don't know if he's even still alive, but, and there was a committee, there was, I think Jack Goodwin might have been on the Dorian, the original Dorian committee, some of those, um, Bill Bain, [00:56:00] yeah, those, those sort of old, um, you had to have tickets to get, you had to buy a ticket to get in, and then you got the booze, and the cops raided it a couple of times over the years as a token thing, but, um, it went for years and years, and then I think it started going downhill. And, um, uh, So I sort of lost touch with all that. Cause I was out, by about 72, 73, I was in Christchurch and out of all this. Um, when I, when I finished up at Mojo's, I actually got a job on the ships. [00:56:30] For a year or so. And then went to Christchurch and sort of, I didn't go back to Wellington for many years. My sort of Wellington involvement was a lot of things squeezed into a fairly small time frame. So what were the years you would have been in Wellington? From 63 to 1970. 71, coming into 71. Um, but the last year, well I might have gone through to 72 actually [00:57:00] because I was on the ferries. And on, I did a few trips to the islands on different boats and things, so it was only for about a year or so. Malcolm worked on the ships then. It's interesting that, you know, the wharves and the ships have come up and I got out of drag. Right. I got out of drag, um, and I thought, well, I've got to make up my mind. What am I going to do? What am I going to be? Once and for all. So, so I went and did the ship thing, and [00:57:30] I was, I ended up paying off as chief cook. Um, cause that's what I've always, always done. And, um, I got to Christchurch, I bought a house in Christchurch, and I woke up one morning and I thought, no, this is just not working. So, I went off and did the deed, and that was it, and sort of. Lived a fairly straight life after that. It's interesting, just saying before, about [00:58:00] the kind of, you know, ships and wards, um, has come up a number of times. How had, how, how did the kind of the transportation, shipping, sailors influence kind of rainbow culture, do you think? Was it a big thing? Well I guess there's always a good route on a ship. Um, You know, um, sailors were renowned for, you know, their closeted [00:58:30] activities. Um, it was just one of those things I think that gays are gravitated to, and it was a job that you could get, um, and you could do, and there was acceptance. No, nobody gave a shit about anyone that was gay on working on a ship. In fact, it was an advantage, I think. Um, if you were gay, so yeah, it was just the, I guess it's like career paths that people, you know, some people have [00:59:00] bent to be mechanics, some, it's just that sort of career path. We weren't all window dresses and, um, hairdressers. You talked about at the start of the interview, the, um, the, the kind of police harassment in Australia. How were the police in New Zealand? Well, I thought they were, uh, Other people disagree with me. And I think they might have been really good in the 60s, early 70s. Um, [00:59:30] And I'm only talking about Wellington because the Auckland ones were, were shitheads. Um, but the Wellington ones were pretty good, they didn't really worry anyone. They did the obligatory raids and, you know, public toilets and things like that when the mother of six wrote to the Dominion and said there's all these strange men hanging around and, you know, my children are vulnerable or something. And they'd go and do the obligatory raids. Um. But, on the whole, they didn't worry the [01:00:00] drag queens at all, um, unless they were doing something wrong. If you were doing something wrong and breaking the law of the land, then of course the police were going to chase you and they were going to arrest you because you were doing something wrong. If you were selling drugs or you were doing burglaries or something, of course they're going to chase you, but they'd chase anyone for those same things. Um, and the police were only I don't blame the police for anything they really did because the police were only acting on the [01:00:30] laws that they were charged to act on. Um, so it was the politicians that we should have been hating on and targeting rather than, rather than the poor old cops that were just sort of at the end of the food chain carrying out the duty. Um, I've, I've, I, I personally never had an issue ever with the police in Wellington. Um, And I know very few people who did, I know some, oh, sorry, I should say, I know some people who did, but they were doing other things [01:01:00] and, and, as I quite often remind one or two people, you've got to put it in context as to what you were doing when the police were chasing you. But just being in drag, being trans, um, no, it wasn't an issue, from my perspective, and, and there were no laws against it either, and we can thank Carmen for that, because she challenged, she got arrested in Auckland a few years before, and, and she challenged it and pleaded not guilty, and had a pretty [01:01:30] smart lawyer, who, um, the judge ruled that there was no law against a man dressing as a woman, and, and that was the end of that for forever and a day. Um, she had another court case many years later when she was in Wellington and she was running the strip club. Um, one of, no, it was the coffee bar. Um, one of her girls, Carol D'Winter, got arrested for prostitution upstairs at Carmen's Coffee Bar. Which was pretty renowned for, [01:02:00] you know, you could have a coffee downstairs and a young lady or a young man upstairs, um, but anyway, Carol got arrested and the cops charged her with being a male doing an indecent act and the indecent act was supposedly on the undercover policemen and Roy Stacey, our wonderful darling Roy Stacey, who used to be a top barrister in Wellington back in those days and looked after Carmen and a lot of the gay community [01:02:30] fought the charge and The jury came back and said that Carol DeWinter was not a man, she was a woman, and, um, I've got all the clippings from the newspaper for that, um, sex change man, now a real woman or something, the headline was in the Dominion, and that was the end of that forever and a day as well, um, and I can't recall anyone really being charged after that or, Any, any much harassment. I think they learnt [01:03:00] their lesson that we were, we were, that was the start of the fighting back, I think, um, that we weren't going to tolerate any of that sort of behavior and we'd fight back and, and then law reform, um, homosexual law reform society formed and, and there was a lot of, uh, gay liberation, um, which I was one of the founding members in Wellington of, um, um, That all we all start we started fighting back on those things and and it took a few years, but by God We've [01:03:30] done pretty well We've pretty much got the lot now and I see a lot of young people are still fighting for some something that I'm not quite sure what but Most of those battles have been fought and won as far as I'm concerned. Well when I hear When I heard you talk at the start of this interview about what it was like in Sydney in the in the 50s and 60s It just, chalk and cheese. It just sounded like this is a completely another world that I had no [01:04:00] conception of. Yeah Yes, and that's why I've just, I've always just loved New Zealand I've never wanted to, never had any desire to go back to Australia to live I've only ever been back about three times to visit Because I just have such bad memories of Australia, um, when I was young and I know a lot of other people do too. It was bloody horrible. And New Zealand was like a breath of fresh air. I mean, yes, we had people [01:04:30] who were racist. We've got people who were homophobic or transphobic. Um, but we've got people who don't like redheads, who don't like fat people. We've got people who don't like Like, people who have got disabilities, you know, um, we've got people who don't like Maori place names around the country and that's the topic at the moment, um, especially where I live. Um, but, you know, we've always got people who don't like something, [01:05:00] but, but on the whole the culture is accepting and you can live in peace, you can run a business, you can do whatever you want, and more importantly, you can be whatever you want. I mean, we're now. Back in my day, gay doctors and things were, were like hen's teeth. Um, lawyers, there was no openly gay professional people around. Now, now you can be anything. You can be the deputy prime minister. You can be members of parliament. You can be on councils. Um, you can be [01:05:30] whatever you want to be. Personally, I think a lot of that stems from Like, your bravery, and Carmen's bravery, and Chrissie Wetuku's bravery, because if it wasn't for your generation. But when you say that, you've got to say that with hindsight, because we didn't. Think we were being brave. We were just surviving. Uh, we were doing what we, what we knew to, to [01:06:00] survive. We weren't thinking, well, in 30 years time, people are going to be standing on our shoulders or, you know, and saying, oh, they did it for us and all that sort of stuff. Um, that was the furthest thing from our minds. We were, we were surviving and we were having a ball. I mean, Wellington was the most fun city ever. Um, it had so many clubs, it had so many places to go, it had so many it was fun. It was So then, what would your advice be to, [01:06:30] um, a young trans person now, or a young rainbow person? It's about being who you want to be, um, being yourself. And making, making the right choices, I guess, um, because now, these days, you don't have to make bad choices. Back in, back in nowadays, we had to make some fairly bad choices and do some things that we wouldn't necessarily do now to survive. Um, now you don't have to do that.[01:07:00] Um, but above all else, you know, get over yourselves, I think. Um, you're not victims anymore. You know, stop being, playing the victim because you're not victims. Um, you are the authors of your own destiny. If you want to be a victim, you be a victim. But all the victims that I've known all through my life are all dead. They didn't survive. All the, all the trans and drag queens and God knows what that hit the bottle or hit the [01:07:30] pills, um, self destructed themselves because they couldn't come to terms with what they were or society and how people put you down and all the rest of it. They're all dead. There's thousands of them. I could name probably offhand a hundred, um, that I knew. Um, you just gotta be a bit stronger than that and, and look past, you know, everybody hates me sort of thing, cause they don't. Most people don't give a shit what anyone does, to be quite honest. They [01:08:00] just, most people are getting on with their own baggage, rather than worrying too much about everyone else's. There's a whole culture going through the, through, well not all the young ones obviously, but, but a lot of the young sort of more radical And I, I sort of bit unfairly say, Oh, you're just rebels looking for a cause. You're, you're looking for the cause, but the cause has been one. Well, the cause in a way it's been one, but in a way there's still a long way to go [01:08:30] and whatever, whatever we've gained can, can always be taken away too. And we're coming into a period of right wing ideologies right around the world. And you know, you've got Putin. Causing wars. You've got all sorts of, uh, in Iran and Iraq and all those places. You've got all this right wing ideology coming. That will spread and that way, you know, what, what you can be given can be taken off you too. So you've got to be vigilant, but, but you've also got to be [01:09:00] reasonable in what you ask for and demand. So that everyone can can be tolerant of everyone else. Does that make sense? It does. I'm still thinking back on when I was I guess talking about Thinking about the the bravery that that that I see in Earlier generations. I mean for me as somebody growing up [01:09:30] now Your generation and the generations before are real inspirations. Yes, but we didn't set out to be inspirations. No, you didn't. We were just surviving. You didn't set out, but you are. I mean, when I got thrown in Long Bay Jail, um, Back in those days, if we didn't have boobs, um, we'd just started on hormones which we bought illegally from a chemist shop in Sydney for 10 a hundred. God knows what we're doing [01:10:00] to our bodies with that. But, but anyway, um, for boobs, we used to, we used to have bras. Um, with double balloons full of honey or birdseed, and they felt like boobs, um, and you put it in your bra. Well, I remember when I got thrown into Long Bay Jail, the first thing they did was you got into the reception area, which was a great big courtyard, it was outside, and there was all these yards full of bloody prisoners. And they'd parade the [01:10:30] drag queens out there, shave your head, that was the first thing they did. Um, cut all your hair off, cause that was the drag queen's pride and glory. How long you could let your hair grow, sort of showed how long you've been able to avoid the police. Um, And, and just totally traumatized you out there and, and you either got traumatized or you fought back. And I, I remember the first time I went in there, I grabbed me boob out, out of my bra with the honey and threw it at the screw and it burst on his head and, and the [01:11:00] whole. Place went into an uproar of cheering and, and I was fine. I never had a problem from then on, but because I'd fought back, um, and I've done that all my life. I've never, never ever been the victim and I don't want to allow myself to be the victim. Um, but that's, you know, that's my sort of character. Um, some people can't do that. I know, um. But a lot of people can if they really try. [01:11:30] You, you mentioned earlier that you were going to do a speech tomorrow, and the speech tomorrow is part of an unveiling ceremony for two memorial seats for Chrissie Wiitoku and Carmen Ruppe, and it's so wonderful that you're here in Wellington to do that. What does it mean for you to have things like the memorial seats, um, kind of in? Well, I, I, I mean, I mean, Carmen and Chris were, were my two best, besties, they were my two best friends and, [01:12:00] um, you know, I'm 78, nearly 79, um, Chris was born a week after me, so she would have been 78 now, um, coming up 79, um, Carmen was 6 or 7 years older than us, but, but, yeah, to see your best friends being honoured this way. Um, in the city that you really love and, and, and my best times were in Wellington. Um, you know, I love coming back to [01:12:30] Wellington and, um, it's, it's, yeah, it's, and to see that change in, in society and all the rest of it, even though Wellington was very, it's always been free and easy and friendly though. It's, it's, it's a unique city in the world really. Um, I've, I've been to San Francisco many times and that, but no one's as friendly as our own Wellington. Nobody smiles at you or says hello or anything. Wellington they do. You walk down the street and you can get a smile out of anyone. [01:13:00] Um, and it's a pretty unique sort of city. Auckland's not like that. Dunedin's not like it, you know, it's, it's, it's quintessential Wellington. Um, yeah, it's just a great city and it always has been. And yeah, to see, to see them honored like that, I think is, is just amazing. Um, yeah, let's have more of it.

IRN: 3525
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/unveiling_of_the_memorial_for_chrissy_witoko_and_carmen_rupe.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004684
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093074
TITLE: Unveiling of the memorial seats for Chrissy Witoko and Carmen Rupe
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Andy Foster; Chanel Hati; Glenda Hughes; Grant Robertson; Jacquie Grant; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Richard Tankersley; Selena Pirika; Sye Witoko; Tīwhanawhana; Virginia Lum
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1950s; 1960s; 1970s; 2020s; Absolutely Positively Wellingtonian Awards; Alexis Kennedy; Anaru Manuel; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bistro bar; Carmen Rupe; Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Chanel Hati; Chris Carter; Chrissy Witoko; Chrissy Witoko Memorial Trust; Chrissy Witoko and Carmen Rupe memorial seats; Cuba Mall; Cuba Street; Daniel Fielding; Dominion Hotel; Dominion Post (newspaper); Dunedin; Evergreen Coffee House; Fleur Fitzsimons; Gareth Watkins; Georgina Beyer; Gina Lamore; Glenda Hughes; Hotel St George; Irawhiti Takatāpui; Jack Groves; Jurgen Hoffman; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Mayor of Wellington; Michael Barrymore; Michael Fowler Centre; Natalie Parker; New Zealand Order of Merit (ONZM); Presbyterian; Queer at Council (WCC); Richard Tankersley; Robin Waerea; Roger Smith; Roxy Theatre (Manners Street); Royal Oak Hotel; Scott Kennedy; Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar; Selena Pirika; Speak Up For Women NZ; Sunset Strip; Sydney; Sye Witoko; Takatāpui and Rainbow Advisory Council (TRAC); Taumarunui; Teri O'Neill; Transgender flag; Tīwhanawhana; Virginia Lum; Vivian Street; Wellington; Wellington City Council; Wellington City Library; White Diamonds (perfume); anger; awhi; bigotry; community; discrimination; drag; mayor; music; performance; perfume; police; saxophone; social work; takatāpui; toasted sandwich; trans; transgender; wahine toa; waiata
DATE: 1 October 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar, 176 Cuba Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the unveiling of the memorial seats for Chrissy Witoko and Carmen Rupe. The seats, located on the corner of Cuba and Vivian Streets, were installed and unveiled on 1 October 2022. A special thank you to the speakers for allowing this event to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Good afternoon everybody. Welcome to S and M's this afternoon. I'm Malcolm Kennedy Vaughan and it's an honour and a privilege to be your MC for this afternoon's proceedings. A few things I'd like [00:10:30] to get out of the way. In case of an emergency, there's an emergency exit straight down the back down here. It's very unlikely, but just to let you know it's there. Okay, I'd like to say some thank you now and that's to Te Māori cultural group, Wellington City Council, Pride New Zealand, the Kusibutuku Memorial Trust. Um, for making this afternoon 100 percent extremely possible. I would also like to acknowledge, uh, His Worship the Mayor, uh, of Wellington, Andy Foster. We have the MP for [00:11:00] Central Wellington, the Right Honourable Grant Robinson. Uh, Glendy Hughes from the Greater, uh, Wellington Regional Council. And Simon Wetoko. Uh, we do have a message from Jürgen and Robin who are in Sydney and unfortunately can't be with us this afternoon, but we do have a message from them, which will be read later on. And of course, uh, from, uh, the officer of the New Zealand Order of Merit, Jackie Grant. Okay, they're going to be our speakers this afternoon. It's going to be a fabulous afternoon and, um, I think you've all been across the road and seen the seats [00:11:30] and, uh. They look fantastic. Absolutely fantastic. Uh, there's flags up on the stage. If you have not signed the flags, could you please do so before you leave this afternoon. Right now I'd like to invite our first speaker up from the Greater Wellington Regional Council. Yes, it's you darling. Glenda Hughes and Simon Wutoko. I have to tell you that I thought it was only going to be Simon. [00:12:00] I thought I was here on his coattails. But look, thank you very, very much for asking me to speak, because I think as I look around me at the moment and I see my last 50 years in front of me, because it was 1970 when I met Chrissie, and um, she bequeathed me her brother reluctantly about 30 years later. So, [00:12:30] um. Chrissie, I, I, at that stage, some of you may know, I at that stage was a policewoman, and Chrissie was what I called the social worker. She looked after everybody. Didn't matter who they were, didn't matter where they came from, Chrissie looked after them. And, and just one little funny story that I thought was an absolute reflection of Chrissie, was I used to keep in touch with her, because I don't know whether you know, but we still live [00:13:00] on the corner of Vivian and Marion Streets, so we will be losing the seats. Um, and I walked up the row, I used to sometimes pop up about 2 o'clock in the morning, just to make sure that everything was peaceful and all the rest of it, and I walked up and I saw this. That the, uh, roller door was down on the front of the evergreen, which is very unusual at two o'clock in the morning. So I knocked on the door and I got in and I said, What's the problem? And she said, Oh Mr Barrymore's here, [00:13:30] and he's pretty drunk, and I didn't want the public to see, so I've pulled down the roller door. And about 15 minutes later, an extended, uh, Cadillac came past. Two people came rushing in. Picked up Barrymore, took him out, put him in the Cadillac, and drove off. And the next morning there was a story in the Sunday News about how he'd given up drinking. Laughter[00:14:00] So, basically, I don't want to hold your time. I'm very, thank you very much for inviting me. Um, I know this might sound unusual, but this has been my community for many, many years. And, um, You've looked after me, and I've tried to look after you, and Chrissie certainly looked after me. Um, and she did bequeath me a very special present, so I'll hand over to him. Thank you.[00:14:30] Yeah, I'm uh, Chrissie's brother, and the last of the siblings. So it's been a Pleasure and a blessing, I've been here. I'm a little short with words, but I play a lot, so if you'll just bear with me while I do this. Feel that. This is one of [00:15:00] the kind of piano we all have had in the past. Hey Hey Hey [00:15:30] Hey Hey Hey Um, Uh, Uh, Uh, [00:16:00] Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh, Oh, Like Uh Oh Um Uh [00:16:30] Way Through Next You Uh My Uh N tamam Uh Uh Next Um Uh My Uh My Uh Uh Um, uh, [00:17:00] Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh, Um, uh, [00:17:30] Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh,[00:18:00] [00:18:30] I'll do one more after this one here, also remember that, uh, my father taught us, as much as our cousins were. The difference is today.[00:19:00] Um, uh, Um, uh, Um, uh, Um, uh, Um, uh,[00:19:30] Um, uh, Um, uh, Um, uh, Um, uh, Um, Um,[00:20:00] [00:20:30] transcript. Um, uh, Um, [00:21:00] uh, Um, uh, Um, uh, Um, Uh, [00:21:30] Uh, Um, uh, Um, uh, Um, uh, Um, uh, [00:22:00] Yeah. Um, [00:22:30] Uh, Um, Uh, Um, Um, Um, [00:23:00] Um. Um.[00:23:30] Absolutely fantastic. Thank you, Simon. And thank you, Glenda. And I'm sure you have many more stories to tell about those nights around at the Evergreen. That's for sure. As I mentioned earlier on in the piece, uh, there's two of Carmen's executives that were living in Sydney, great dear friends of Carmen's, and that was Juergen Hoffman and Robin Warrier Hargraves. Unfortunately, they can't be with us this afternoon, but at this stage they have made a contribution, a contribution, sorry, and I'd like to invite their dearest friend, Virginia Lum, [00:24:00] to come and read, uh, their message. Virginia? Thank you very much. Uh, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou. I'm not very good at, uh, te reo or, uh, tikanga, but I'm doing my best. Uh, just a quick note before we get onto the serious stuff. I come over from Australia, and, uh, Sydney, and in, uh, February next year, Sydney's going to host World Pride. [00:24:30] Now Pride is everything in the whole queer community, right? And some people say, Sydney is the gay capital of the Southern Hemisphere. But to me, I look out here on what we're doing here today, and what the Council's doing, and Pride New Zealand's doing, and um, everything about the community and what the organisations are doing to support the community. far surpass anything that Sydney does. So, congratulate yourself.[00:25:00] Now on to the serious stuff. Now, Rob, I don't know whether you know Robin and Jürgen, but Robin is from Aotearoa, and Jürgen is from Germany, so I don't know what accents to read this in. I'll give it a go. Philip Sherry, anyone remember Philip Sherry? Here is the news. A note from Robin Waira and Jurgen Hoffman, Sydney. Unfortunately, we cannot [00:25:30] be in person to share with you the recognition being bestowed on these two individuals today. Thank you for the opportunity to share a few words on this special occasion. It is indeed a special occasion championed by Pride New Zealand and others to acknowledge two of the forerunners of our strong community. Whilst there are others, Carmen's and Chrissy's contribution are noteworthy for their respective efforts. [00:26:00] Both carried their voices to speak up for our community when others felt that they could not. And that's really important. Reflecting on our dear friend Carmen, she had no fear. was gracious in all her dealings, and never had a bad word about anyone. That's unlike me. Even when others took advantage, Carmen would take that in her stride. She was amazing. We're so grateful that Carmen's [00:26:30] legacy continues, and she'll be so proud of today's event. Thank you to the Mayor of Wellington, and supporters for making this a reality. It's those who sit. Lie and lean on. The park benches feel the resolve of these two individuals to give them the strength and courage to forge ahead. These two women are wahine toa. Ngā mihi. Thank you. [00:27:00] APPLAUSE Thank you Virginia, and please pass on our thanks to Robin and Jürgen also. It is now a great pleasure for me to invite His Worship the Mayor of Wellington up to say a few words. Thank you. Come on, big hand for the Mayor. Applause Kia ora mau. Um, Ena mana, ena reo, ena rangatira mā. Tēnā koutou te whānau. And it really does feel, it's a real honour to be able to be able to come into this room, [00:27:30] to this community. It feels like being part of a family gathering in some ways. Certainly what we've just heard from Sai, um, Glenda. Um, and it really does feel an honor and a privilege to be part of this, this gathering. Because I didn't know either Carmen or Chrissie personally. I'll say I was a bit young, a bit too young for that. Although, some people, some people might be, some people might be a bit different. I'm younger than I look. Anyway, look, I just want to start off by saying just thank you to everybody who's [00:28:00] helped to put this event together, to Gareth and Pride New Zealand. Um, awesome job, Scotty and Mel. Um, and in some ways you do, you carry on that legacy in many ways that, um, Carmen and Chrissy, um, you know, started. To providing a place that people can come to, a place that people can feel safe and it is their place. I mean, we should, people should be able to, whoever we have got in this, in this city, should be able to feel safe wherever they are in this city. Should be able to feel respected for who they are, wherever they [00:28:30] are. But sometimes it's really good to have a place that you know is a special place, and so Scotty and Mel, thank you. And it was, it was beautiful to be able to acknowledge, uh, you two as part of our Absolutely Positively Wellington Awards recently, and thank you for the beautiful words that, that you said there, um, uh, Mel in particular. Um, and just to all the friends and whanau of, of Chrissie and, and Carmen. Um, it's great to be with you and to grant, uh, acknowledge you as well. Um, fabulous to have you here and, and I know you're going to say a few words shortly. Uh, look, we're here to unveil plaques to, to celebrate the [00:29:00] lives of these two wahine toa. Um, and the contribution that they've made and I guess We often say that we stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before, the people who have blazed trails, and absolutely that is true of Chrissie and, uh, of Carman. They definitely blazed trails in the city. Um, not only did they run, um, some, uh, establishments that were, um, Well known around the, around the city. Um, Glenda, my notes, my notes say well known to the police, I don't know which role you had there. [00:29:30] You being the guardian angel or not. But actually, we were, we were having a conversation the other day about um, about uh, running um, uh, the um, What do you call it? Chemist job in the, in the, um, uh, in Ber Mall and no break-ins. And then, um, but, but having served the, uh, the trans, the trans community in particular and, uh, and the, some of the trans community then saying, look, you know, we are looking after this place and, you know, we're gonna make sure that the, the place is kept safe. So, you know, it's, there's a real sense of that community here in this, in this place. And they brought a lot of glamor, uh, [00:30:00] to what was a, a gray. public service city, completely unlike what we've got today, the, you know, the walk shorts and all that sort of thing. So they, they blazed a trail in that way. But they also blazed a trail, as I said, in that, in that providing a safe haven and a place to, to look after, uh, the LGBTQI plus, uh, community. And that is just so, so important. Um, I understand, um, Far too young at the time, But I understand that there was uhh, You know, there were maybe some of the alcohol, Regulations were breached at the time, Yeah but, but, but, but, but dodgy [00:30:30] that you know The late night cafes had a dash of alcohol in them, And maybe Grant that might be something We do need To have a look at the sale and supply of liquor act To make it just a little bit more flexible A little more genteel So there is a little hint But look, I, I think it's really really great To be able to have these two, Um, women, Uh celebrated in, uh, in the plaques that we have just around the corner there. Um, I'm a real fan of telling the stories of our city and of the people who have made our city what [00:31:00] it is. And there is absolutely no doubt that they have made a significant contribution to where we are. We have three, po, in our, uh, our city council strategy, and that sounds really boring. They're about sustainability. That's not boring at all, that's really important. They're about creativity, whether it's arts, culture, business, those sort of things. They're also about inclusivity. And those are the three things that I talk about all the time. It's so important that we are an inclusive city. And that story is a story about, uh, the inclusion of, um, of our community. And look, I [00:31:30] just wanted to, to mention just some of the things that, um, we've done. And, uh, and thank you, um, For the kind words at the beginning. Um, Some of the things that we've been doing over the last, uh, last little while, we've established the Takatapui Rainbow Advisory Council to provide a voice. It's not the only voice. It's not the only voice by any stretch uh, for the rainbow community. But it is an important formal voice, if you like, uh, in front of the council. We supported Queeret Council to ensure that our own rainbow staff are supported in the workplace. And we're also in the process of [00:32:00] setting up a dedicated Rainbow staff member to, um, to help support that, um, that advisory group. As I said, we've, we've given, uh, APW awards, Absolutely Positively Wellington awards recently to, um, uh, to Scotty and Mel. Uh, and last year we had one for Georgie Girl as well. Uh, amongst others. So we, you know, we want to recognise the members of our rainbow community. Uh, and then, um, one of the things we've been asked about is that we have a space for the rainbow community within the, the, the council's fabric of [00:32:30] facilities. And we are, I think this week, we will see Orange, uh, orange hard hats and vests, uh, in the Te Matapihi, our new library, and the construction work's starting to happen. And there will be a room in that building, uh, which is able to be used, not exclusively by any particular group, but be able to be used by any group, you know, being booked, whatever. It's a safe, quiet space that people can go, uh, and, and enjoy there. Um, and then, um, there's a bit from my speech notes, which is about the, the, the library. Just [00:33:00] don't expect a splash of brandy in your coffee at the library cafe, that is unlikely. And as I said, as I said Grant, if we can sort out the liquor licensing rules, then maybe we can get that one fixed. And look, I did want to mention one other thing which we've done in the last, uh, in the last three years, and that was when we had all the, the controversy around the births, deaths, marriages, and relationships bill, and we had Speak Up for Women, and it was very, very clear that, Quite rightly, people have the right to be able to speak and to say what they want to say. Although, when you've got the right, you've also got the responsibility to make sure you [00:33:30] exercise that in a way which doesn't hurt people or harm people. That's really, really important. And at that time we said, uh, and Councillor Fitzsimons, who's somewhere in the back over there, there she is. Um, and, uh, Councillor O'Neill, uh, and I said, look, we did some work together with Michael Algar, who's my Chief of Staff. Um, and we said look, we want to make sure that the trans community knows that their city, their council, is standing behind them. And so, while the Speak Up for Women were meeting inside the Michael Faller Centre, we were lighting it up [00:34:00] outside. And we had the trans flag, colours all over the building, and the community gathering together outside with the trans flag. And that was about saying, we are with you. And that's a really, really important message of inclusiveness. Uh, look, just, and just to finish off, um, I have to mention, given that I am in the latter stages of a mayoral campaign, Carmen, of course, um, had one of the highest profile mayoral campaigns I think we've probably ever seen, uh, in the city, uh, in 1977.[00:34:30] Uh, supported, I think, by the redoubtable Bob Jones as well. It's an interesting combination there. Um, and she stood for extending opening hours for bars. Lowing the drink age, legalising sex work, and she finished that high profile campaign. It says here in my notes in a respectable fourth. Fourth's not respectable. It's only first. It's the only one that works. But never mind. She, she, she certainly made her point. But in my 30 years of politics and seeing a whole lot of different, um, somewhat, sometimes more and sometimes less effective, uh, slogans, there is no doubt that hers [00:35:00] was unique. Anybody remember what it was? Get in behind! Yeah, absolutely. So look, the legacy left by both Carmen and Chrissy has been huge in looking after the LGBTQI plus community. I think all of those who, like Scotty and Mel, are involved in making sure that that legacy continues to this day. And look, it's a plarks which tell their story, remind us of them, and I think it's something which should be a source of pride.[00:35:30] But also, just telling our stories, who we are, and where we've come from. So congratulations everybody in making this day happen. Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, koutou. Thank you, Andy, that was fantastic. And it's great to see that we do actually have a council 100%. We've got our rainbow crossing. We've got Carmen on the traffic lights, and now we've got these seats across the road to celebrate two amazing wahine toa [00:36:00] to, uh, that led us, that led us in our early days to show us where we are today. Um, fantastic. Thank you, Andy. My next guest is fantastic. She doesn't need no introduction whatsoever. She's an officer of the New Zealand Order of Merit. Could you please welcome on stage the fabulous Jacob Grant. Kia ora whanau. It is my absolute honour. To have [00:36:30] been asked to speak here today and to give you some insight into two ladies that were and still are two of the most important people in my life and to tell you about life for the rainbow community in Wellington through the 60s and early 70s from my perspective. When I think about Chrissie and Carmen or Carmen and Chrissie I can't help but think, same but different. [00:37:00] I first met Carmen way back in 1958, in Sydney. She was already a showgirl, and I was a 14 year old wannabe. Right from the start, glamour was Carmen's thing. Being seen, being photographed, and she did that with spades. She knew she was beautiful, and she capitalized on it right to her last [00:37:30] days. And I was fortunate enough to do the eulogy at her funeral in Sydney. I seem to get this job of doing eulogies, I think. Um, It was because of Carmen that myself and two other queens Gina Lamour, and I guess there'll be some people here that will remember these names, and Natalie Parker came to New Zealand. And of course, another factor was, New Zealand was the only country one [00:38:00] could travel to without a passport in those days, and that was very fortuitous as the Sydney cops were chasing us. And we had to get here. I remember well, Carmen in Wellington, doing her drumming up business walks in the middle of the day up Cuba Street. She was like a stately galleon, loud, proud, hair up to the heavens, flowers in her hair, I've [00:38:30] actually still got two of those flowers at home, those artificial flowers, and wearing every colour of the rainbow. She always made a point of smiling and greeting everyone she passed and she had a unique ability of Remembering people's names. So she would greet people by name. It was quite incredible But you know, you'd be walking along and oh and how are you and and she'd say their name She may, she, as I said before, she was the [00:39:00] consummate showgirl and one of the best self promoters I have ever met. Carmen was her own agent. And wherever she went, she made sure the media were close by. I remember just before Chrissy's 60th birthday, I'd just arrived from the West Coast. Went and saw Chris, who told me Carmen had arrived, and she was in room 210, I think it was, at the St George Hotel. So I went up to say hello, [00:39:30] and found her on the telephone. She was talking to the local press and TV station. She had them on speed dial, telling, and she was telling them that Carmen was about to arrive at the airport to attend an important function. Next minute, didn't have any time for me. She was back in the limo that Chrissy had organized to pick her up from the airport a couple of hours before back in the Luma, I went back out to the [00:40:00] airport to meet. the paparazzi. Next minute, Chrissy's function sort of went by the by in the, in the Dominion. The next morning there was Carmen on the front page. Um, quite incredible. Carmen was very generous with her staff, always out at different restaurants, always paying the bill. Money wasn't particularly important to Carmen. It was all about the show. Always making sure her girls look glamorous. As that show went on [00:40:30] 24 7. One of my fondest memories of Wellington was Sunday nights. And we'd all go to the midnight movies at the Roxy Theatre in Manor Street. It was managed by Jeanette and Jack, Jack Groves, two early Wellington icons. Going right back to the early days, those. And the, the midnight movies in the Roxy Theatre showed horror films on a Sunday night at midnight. And those. [00:41:00] Horror films shown on a Sunday night were often interspersed by the large rat running across the upstairs balcony rail. We called it the flea, flea pit or something. Um, and then you'd hear the odd bang. And that'd be where someone had had a cockroach crawl over them and a quick stiletto sent the cockroach to heaven. Um, it was, it was a, it was a place, but we all went. Carmen's girls, Chrissie's girls, Sherelle's [00:41:30] girls, my girls, we all went there. When I say girls in those days, I say it very loosely, everyone was girl. Gay boys, lesbians, drag queens, trannies, everybody who wanted to be part of that scene. And we walked everywhere. We didn't have cars. And what a sight it must have been at 3. 30am, seeing all this cacophony of rainbow culture heading out of the Roxy. False eyelashes falling off, the odd broken high [00:42:00] heel, with the first stop always to the hot bread shop in Manus Street, who by that time of the morning had the tastiest treats for sale. Sometimes it was the only meal we had that day. Then up Cuba Street where everyone would start to disperse to their various flats and accommodation. In those days, we were a real community. We had each other's backs. When one was down, others were there to pick up the pieces. Something that [00:42:30] makes me sad today is to see how ready we are to tear each other down, rather than uffing all of our community. People like Carmen, Chrissie, and many others were the public face of the whole Rainbow community, out and proud, same but different. I met Chrissie. About 1963 64 after arriving in Wellington, and from that very first meeting we became firm friends for so many [00:43:00] years. One of my saddest days ever was being with Chrissie in Wellington Hospital. Along with Malcolm and, um, Daniel and quite a, quite a lot of us, um, when Chrissie passed away. And a testament to Chris was the amount of people who attended her tangi. There must have been way over a thousand people walked through that marae, um, over those three days. And, and probably closer to a couple of thousand. They came in [00:43:30] busloads. There were politicians. There were people from all walks of life, business people, there were gay people, there were trans people, but it was that wide reach that she had, um, in, in her dealings with people that she transcended a lot of things, and just very calmly and quietly went along. She was a tireless worker. And a really humble person. She once told me she did not care if she was washing dishes in someone [00:44:00] else's business for a living. It wasn't beneath her, as long as it was honest work. And what a wonderful quality to have. No sense of entitlement whatsoever. Chrissie never really sought the limelight. But nevertheless, over the years, the community came to recognise her dedication and substance. And today, you're in the Limelight Girl whether you want it or not. She loved her community and showed that love in so [00:44:30] many tangible ways. Whether it was a Tangi or some other fundraising event, Chris was there with her sleeves rolled up and ready to help. And we go right back to the early Alexis Kennedy days and every time there was something happened in the community, Chris was there. She was regal. Her presence was such that when she went out to a function or just on one of her, I need to be seen as [00:45:00] it reminds them that the evergreen is open, there was never ever any doubt when she walked into a club, a room or a bar. that the Queen had arrived. Even in the early days, when Chris worked out on the wharf in the kitchen, she drank at the bistro bar at the Royal Oak. We all drank at the bistro bar at the Royal Oak. She was the natural head of the table. And God help any hapless queen, seaman or hood that [00:45:30] got out of control near her. That look put terror in their hearts and I'm sure a lot of you know that look. Um, from being in the evergreen and playing up a little bit and you'd get that look and you'd shut up. And her right hook wasn't too bad either, the look failed. Chris was lucky. She had a very rare thing in our community. A very supportive family, and it's wonderful to see her brother Si and his partner Glenda here today. I [00:46:00] first met Glenda, here it comes, I first met Glenda when Chrissie ran the Sunset Strip. I well remember one night getting wind that the cops were around, so I quickly closed my bottle store, which was up in the back corner of heaven, and some of you older people will know the Sunset Strip, but it was divided into two parts, heaven and hell, and the rainbow side was heaven. How [00:46:30] was the rough trade side? The bottle store existed to supply whiskey to thirsty Japanese seamen and their companions. I headed out through the kitchen to stash my stock. There was a batch out the back where Chrissie lived with Aunty Rungu, my then partner's mother's sister, and later Anaru, the love of Chrissie's life. To get there, I had to go through the kitchen, [00:47:00] and sitting on the bench in the kitchen was this pair of long legs. Clad in thigh high leather boots, looking every bit like Emma Peel. In a bloody police uniform, talking to Chrissie, and it was our lovely Glenda Hughes. I nearly shit my pants. I could have sworn those whiskey bottles were making a racket in my bag. But out I went and [00:47:30] stashed the booze to sell another day. It was, of course, Wellington's most glamorous policewoman, Glenda Hughes, and I think she had lots of arguments about wearing those boots back in those days, didn't you? She never said a word, even though I'm sure she could hear those whiskey bottles clanking in my bag. Both Carmen and Chrissie were the same but different in their delivery of our message, that we were not to be feared or ridiculed. [00:48:00] Rather, we were to be admired and celebrated, each of us the same but different. Both of them, in their own way, did us proud, and we're true pioneers for the rainbow community. They both, in their own way, provided the trans part of the community with much needed stability and employment. So many girls gave up their consultancy businesses on Marion and Vivian Street to work for Chrissie and Carmen.[00:48:30] Both supplied safe spaces for the wider rainbow community, especially Chrissie at the Evergreen, which she ran for around 20 plus years. A remarkable run for a rainbow business catering to a nighttime crowd in Wellington. They are now icons to be celebrated. And to go down into our rainbow history and New Zealand's wider history. Can I hold your attention for just a few more minutes? [00:49:00] I would like to briefly touch on life in Wellington in those early days from my perspective. We've often heard how hard life was. How victimised we were, with police continually chasing us, police bashings, being thrown in jail, and the venom of the wider community. I can tell you, as a community, We had a reasonably good relationship with police. It was not illegal to be in drag [00:49:30] in New Zealand. We have Carmen to thank for that, but that is another story. On the whole, the police were actually good to the girls in those early days, and often turned a blind eye to club owners who were pushing liquor laws to the nth degree. Police were hardly ever a problem to the girls on Marion and Vivian Street, in my opinion. It wasn't the police who were our enemies, it was a judgmental public and the culture of the [00:50:00] politics of the day. And like David and Goliath, we squished them good. Recently an old friend was waxing on about how terrible the police in Wellington were, how they were always chasing us, bashing us and targeting us because of our gender or sexuality. What she said was not actually the reason for police actions in our community. But rather, I reminded her, in those days she was up in Home Street, hanging out a window with a needle in [00:50:30] one arm and selling drugs to anyone who called by with the other. I reminded her that care needs to be taken, not to be revisionary about our history with Wellington Police. Especially when making those sorts of statements while our history is being recorded. Particularly given the actual context. of police actions were, more often than not, as a direct result of criminal activity in our community, [00:51:00] unrelated to gender or sexuality. I'm not saying it was all beer and skittles by any means, but given we were the identical face of the rainbow community, it could have been a lot worse. A lot of thanks must go to our icons Chrissie and Carmen. Who are being honoured today as representatives of our wider Rainbow community. They provided hope and they showed by example that anything was possible for our community. [00:51:30] And look at us now. We've had the first Rainbow Mayor, Georgina Beyer. First out Rainbow Member of Parliament was Chris Carter. Quite a long, many years ago now. Followed by many other Rainbow MPs. All showing us anything is possible. Now, thanks to those people who put their necks on the line, we have the change. Back in our day, if you were in drag, things were different. No one would employ you. And [00:52:00] opportunities were limited to being self employed consultants, nightclub owners, showgirls, etc. Thanks to people like Chrissie and Carmen, we can now be whoever we want to be, same but different. And just, just to conclude I'm going to give this to Malcolm to put on the counter. If anyone would like a spray, this was Chrissie's favourite perfume, White Diamonds. Everywhere she went, she left a trail of white diamond smell behind her. So there's a bottle of White Diamonds [00:52:30] to put on the counter and anybody who wants to give it a squirt. Go for it. Thank you. You know, it's true, Chrissie was a very caring person, an amazing person. She looked after every one of us. And, um, she was also very staunch at times. I remember, um, very briefly, I was working for the Dominion Tavern with Larry and Janelle Phillips, which is now where Maure Wilson stands. It was the old [00:53:00] Dominion Tavern Hotel. And I was doing the lunchtime shift and the phone rings and I pick it up and it's Chrissie. Hello darling. She said, is that you Mel? I said, yes it is. Oh, it's me, darling. It's Chrissie. Is Anaru down there? And I mean, yes he is, yes he's here love. She said, oh don't tell him. She said, I'm going to pop down and have a drink with him. She said, don't tell him I called. I said, okay, sure enough. She stormed in that fucking door. I told you not to ring the baby to the pub! She [00:53:30] switched off with Nicholas and Anaru. Out the door. She went . Um, I don't think I ever saw Andrew back in the pub again, for a long time. Well, an excuse speaker this afternoon is a man who wears many, many hats. He is the MP for Wellington Central. He's the Minister of Finance and the Deputy Prime Minister. Could you please welcome on stage Our best friends, grant Robinson.[00:54:00] Uh, and the mana, and the reo, and the whānau, and the hoe whā. Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa. Uh, The thing you really want late on a Saturday afternoon is a speech from a politician, isn't it? So, I'll do my best to keep it very short, and actually the words that have already been spoken today have been truly beautiful and I don't have a lot to add, to be honest. Uh, I arrived [00:54:30] in Wellington in, well I first started coming to Wellington as an out, gay man in the early 90s and I came to live here in the mid 90s. And the Evergreen was a place I went. The toasted sandwiches really weren't as good as everybody said they were. That was just the excuse everybody gave to go to the Evergreen. But even for me in those early days, um, it was, it was a place of refuge. And I got to know Chrissy a little bit after that. And, um, had so much admiration for her and [00:55:00] for Carmen as well, and I'm so delighted that today we are able to celebrate, uh, them, their contribution, and the contribution of the people they helped build up. And Jackie, you, you hit the nail on the head. I often think about the fact that I get to be the Deputy Prime Minister. As a gay man, you know, I mean, that, that comes, that comes from the people who went before who, who blazed trails across our [00:55:30] communities. And there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Carmen and Chrissy, I, I thought about Carmen's campaign slogan for me in Wellington, central and might, might not get me up above fourth place. Uh, Andy, uh. When I first came to Wellington, actually the places I frequented were all the ones that Mel was tending bar at. And you know, Mel was standing on the, on the table at Casper's or at the, at the Oaks, um, screaming to tell everyone to shut up well before someone [00:56:00] came on. And, and for me, I grew up down in Dunedin and in a, you know. Traditional Presbyterian family upbringing in Dunedin didn't have much of a gay scene. And I guess what I've reflected on coming there and what I've heard today is about that sense of place and sense of belonging. And that's what I think, I think of when I think of Carmen and Chris in Wellington. That sense of it being a place where you would be welcomed. Where [00:56:30] you'd be celebrated for who you were. Where you'd be told off when you stepped out of line, but you were loved for who you were. And a few years ago, and apologies to those in the room who've heard me talk about this before, I was asked to do a speech about my vision for Wellington, and I was Googling around on the internet trying to find the right words, and I came across a speech by a woman, um, in America, her name is Marina Keegan, if you ever want to look her up, and she talked about the fact that in our English [00:57:00] language, we don't have a word, a single word, for the opposite of loneliness. And I said that I wanted Wellington to be the opposite of loneliness. Where everybody feels included and accepted and welcomed and celebrated. And we don't get it right every day or every month or every year, but overall we get it right more often. than other places do. And I think that's what Carmen and [00:57:30] Chrissie created. Was the sense of a place to belong and to be that could be the opposite of loneliness. And if I can just be political for one moment before I finish. Never, ever think the job is done, because we live in an era where we see more anger and hatred and discrimination arising. And as communities [00:58:00] represented here today, it's our job to stop that. It's our job to do as Jackie said, same but different, bring us all together, recognise who we are. Celebrate Takatāpui. Celebrate who we are here. Because only by doing that and sticking together will we put those forces of bigotry and discrimination back down where they belong. So I want to say Ngā mihi nui ki a kōrou. Thank you to these two, [00:58:30] to Carmen and Chrissie, for helping create the world in which we can all be who we are, we can celebrate one another, we can protect one another, and that we can continue to make this city and this place the opposite of loneliness. Kia ora koutou. Oh, thank you Grant. And I've, uh, just on that note where you were saying it's so proud to be a gay man and to be the Deputy Prime Minister. You know, every time your husband [00:59:00] Elf comes in here I keep on telling him, you know, one day you are going to be the First Lady. One day I'll ring you up and do exactly what Anaru did as well. We want to come to the opening party of the big house, okay? Well, look, uh, that concludes our part of the speeches for this afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. So I'd like to kindly ask you now to proceed upstairs and, uh, safely cross the road. We will continue this afternoon's events and the unveiling. Of these magnificent seats.[00:59:30] Thank you.[01:00:00] Tērā puritia, tērā puritia iho Nui [01:00:30] rā wā te aroha e te hokinga mai Te hokinga mai, tēnā koutou Tangi ana tēnā kau i te aroha[01:01:00] [01:01:30] [01:02:00] [01:02:30] Mō tātou Katoa Te hokinga mai Te hokinga mai [01:03:00] Tūtanga tātou A tēnā tātou! Kimi hea rapu hea whaea ki te uru tapu nui o tāne, tāne te wai ora, tāne te wānaka, tāne te tokoraki, puta ki te whaea o ki te ao māranga.[01:03:30] Come now, please, and unveil the seats. [01:04:00] Carmen Ruka, 1936 to 2011. It is your ancestors that give you the strength to survive [01:04:30] today. And let the shadows fall behind you. Chris Iwetoko, 1944 2002 Ngāti Kahungunu, Erewhiti, Whakatāpū Tēnā kōrua Tūi, [01:05:00] tūi, tūtuia! Tuia te hihiri tapu o i o te raki no te kahu o te auraki, ko okiri te ara aki te araraki, ka whakaputaina te mai o haa o tawhirimatea, me hoki te irawhiti takatapui i roto i enei turu, hei noho mo ake tonu atu tuturu mai kia whakamaua, kia tina![01:05:30] [01:06:00] Well, fantastic. And, uh, these seats are here to remind us on a daily basis just how far we've come and, uh. To paraphrase a well known speech throughout the world. This is one giant step for trans and one super super leap for trans kind Thank you all for being here this afternoon that finishes our formal opening of the benches and you're more than [01:06:30] warmly welcome to join us back at S and M's have a couple of drinks and Swap some fabulous stories. Thank you all for being here. And thank you for the mayor. And where is he the fabulous Grant Robinson Over here, all our guest speakers, fantastic job. Thank you all very much.

IRN: 3522
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/wellington_mayoral_candidates_event_2022.html
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093072
TITLE: Wellington Mayoral Candidates Event 2022
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Andy Foster; Craig Watson; Ellen Blake; Hamish Allardice; Jeremy Naylor; Kevin Haunui; Paul Eagle; Ray Chung; Tory Whanau; Wayne Jackson
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Andy Foster; Aotearoa New Zealand; Carmen Rupe; Craig Watson; Ellen Blake; Green Party; Hamish Allardice; Jan Logie; Jeff Whittington; Jeremy Naylor; Kevin Haunui; Mayor of Wellington; Member of Parliament; Methodist; Newtown; Paul Eagle; Rainbow Wellington; Ray Chung; Speak Up For Women NZ; St Peter's church; Takatāpui and Rainbow Advisory Council (TRAC); Tory Whanau; Wayne Jackson; Wellington; Wellington City Council; biphobia; democracy; election; homelessness; public health; public health response; public safety; survival sex; transgender; transphobia; transphobic violence
DATE: 27 September 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: St Peter's church, cnr Willis and Ghuznee Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the Mayoral Candidates event organised by Rainbow Wellington. The event was held at St Peter's Church on Willis Street on 27 September 2022 and featured Andy Foster (current Mayor), Tory Whanau, Paul Eagle, Ellen Blake and Ray Chung. Candidates Kelvin Hastie and Barbara McKenzie were not in attendance. A special thank you to the candidates and Rainbow Wellington for allowing this event to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Kia ora tatou, nau mai, hara mai, ki tēnei tūranga mō tātou, nō reira, nāi rā au hei tīmata tātou nāi hui, hei karakia tēnei mō tātou. Nō reira, e taunai ki rungi e tātou katoa, te wairua o ngā mātua tūpuna, nā rātou i whakatakoto te ara hei hikoine mā tātou ngā uri, i whakatōki a tātou ngākau ki ngā tikanga, hei arata ki a tātou, ki a ngākau nui ki te hapai a tātou mahi [00:00:30] katoa. Iroto i te pono, i te tika, i te maramatanga, me te aroha ano, tētahi ki tētahi, koe ara, e rongo, whakairi aki ki runga, kia tīna, haumi e, hui e, kia ora tātou. Thank you, Kevin. Um, so there's two minutes, um, the first, first question, you get two minutes to answer. Okay, so we're all clear? Are you okay, Ray, can you? Sorry, I'm going to lose my voice. [00:01:00] He's a little horse. In the gay world that means something entirely different. Just saying. But anyway. It could still be Ray, but anyway we won't go there. So two minutes for the first answer to the question. Whoops. I digress. So the first question is um, It's not too, too long. Some of them are [00:01:30] very long, so I'm just warning you now. You have to keep your listening ears on. The first question, and um, how we do it, is that I've got all your names, and I put them in the bowl, and I get Lucas over here, because he can be trusted, I can't. Um, and we get Lucas to pull it out. No, this is your intro. Yeah, the first question's your intro. The first one is Tori! Okay. So then, [00:02:00] we'll pull it out each time and, we're all clear? Cool. So the question is, um, tell us what you think is important for us as rainbow, as rainbow communities to know about you. Tēnā koutou katoa, ko Pakako Tuki Iwi, he uri tēnei no ingoa. Um, I, I suppose the important thing to know about me is that I've been a long, long standing supporter of rainbow rights. Um, I've very [00:02:30] much, uh, relied heavily on the community. before deciding what's best for the community. And that's a promise that I'll always make. For instance, when I was working at the Green Party, um, Jan Logie was our Rainbow representative, uh, so I'd often liaise with her before even communicating about certain topics. Uh, and the Green Party also had a Rainbow, um, policy group as well who would input into our policy decisions to make sure that they were best. And I think from what I've heard so [00:03:00] far from these groups in terms of where I'd like to prioritise is, um, some of the biggest things that have come up is, of course, we need to increase our housing supply, but we need to ensure that we have queer friendly spaces, queer friendly homes, um, because that's been, um, so that people can feel safe. safe. Another issue is access to mental health support services. So that's something I'm going to strongly advocate for and ensure that the right NGOs are funded, whether it's from the council or government. And of course, drug and alcohol [00:03:30] harm reduction is a big deal for me too. And look, this is something that I'll always keep checking back with organizations like, like yours. Um, but I essentially just want the city to feel safe, to feel safe and to feel vibrant and that it's your home. Um, so I think, yeah, that's me. Wow, that was nice and concise. Thanks, Tori. Um, I should have mentioned earlier that we're taping it, recording it as [00:04:00] well. So you may see this room of, you know, only 300 people. But, you know, there are another thousand who will be listening to it. Excellent. In years to come, I'm sure. Well, holding you to account, as the case may be. Alright. Paul's next. Okay. So handing it to Paul. Same question. Yeah. Yeah. Same question. Sorry. Yeah. Wonderful [00:04:30] to meet those of you who I don't know in here already from the 300 people here this evening. But look, it is a true pleasure to be here. And thanks to Wayne Hamish and Rainbow Wellington for hosting us. Um, for those that don't know all about me, um, Wellingtonian, proud, um, but for me, and it's significant sitting in a church, because I was, the last time I was in here, I said my father was a Methodist minister for nearly [00:05:00] 50 years, and we, uh, we came to Wellington, and dad had the little church in, uh, Newtown. behind, um, Ashley Court Pharmacy by Newtown School. And my first experience really was that, um, Dad had said, you know, we want to open up this plant for the rainbow community. And back in those days, that was a real no no. He didn't have a mainstream church that, and I said to Dad, Oh, what's all the fuss? And he said, Oh, I don't know, but it might be my last Sunday at the rate I'm going. Um, so a, a, a bit of a [00:05:30] rebel, but actually doing the right thing. And I was probably a bit young to understand what was going on, to be honest. Um, but it was the same spirit that he had in terms of being a bit of a social justice warrior, being on the front line for the Springbok tour. Again, young, wasn't too sure what was going on, but what I knew is that, that things were wrong. And of course that was a race issue, this was something around including all people, regardless of gender, whatever, it [00:06:00] was just like, um, you know, I want to make sure those that choose to worship have a safe place to do so. And so that was my first experience as such, and then it's fast forwarded in terms of being a Labour MP. And we've done some really great things around conversion practices. I sat on the select committee that looked at putting a new way of being gender inclusive. Um, and that was painful for some, but not for me. Ding! And that's a [00:06:30] little bit about me. Kia ora. Wow, that was fast. It goes fast, doesn't it? Well done, Lucas. Thanks, Paul. Uh, next person to pull out of the hat is Ray, all bets buddy, you're holding the mic. Right, thank you everyone. Um, sorry as I mentioned I'm losing my voice so, um, bit croaky here. Um, My sister in law and my niece are members of the rainbow community, and so [00:07:00] when I looked at this meeting coming up, I went to talk to them about, um, the differences, and they said that, um, they like to be treated the same as everyone else, they don't like to be singled out all the time to be, um, to be different and have different treatment that other people aren't getting, and so we had a long discussion about my experiences and, um, Uh, for those of you who don't know, I've actually worked, um, [00:07:30] internationally for the last 25 years and I've worked in 46 different countries and I've met a lot of very, very different people, um, different cultures and very diverse. And I find that in some places they have very, very strong opinions about the rainbow community and a sense of what's right and what's wrong. Um, quite surprisingly, this A lot of this came from Singapore, when I was working up there, that a good friend of mine up there said that, Oh, New Zealand has actually just changed the law to allow gay marriages, [00:08:00] so, you know, what do I think about that? And, I said that I've never been involved with these, um, these decisions and so, Um, I didn't really think much of it at all, because I, My views before I actually started travelling were quite different to, um, to Um, how they changed afterwards. I was brought up in a, uh, sorry, I went to St. Mark's Church School um, here, and then before going to college. And so I was brought up with mainly a Christian, um, [00:08:30] um, background and understanding and so of course there's lots of different rules and um, and um, standards and morals and things that they have in their schools. But once I went overseas I actually found that people were, were pretty much The same, we all wanted the same sorts of things in the different places that I went to. I sort of went over with the expectation that Sorry. Okay, thanks. I can continue on with questions later. Thank you. That's a very good point. [00:09:00] There will be time for questions afterwards. Thanks, Ray. Next person is Oh! Andy! Thanks Hamish. Uh, where I'm going to start is that there are three core values that, um, our council's operating on, which I absolutely subscribe to. They are creativity, sustainability and inclusivity. And obviously today, this is all about inclusivity. So some of the things that we've done over the last, uh, three years, um, obviously the Queerett Council is, [00:09:30] uh, I think, uh, accelerated and grown. We have set up a, uh, Takatapui, um, Rainbow Advisory Group, which I think is a, is a really positive initiative. Uh, and I just, I mean, one of the things that really I love about the job that I have is, um, is working with people and meeting the diversity of people. And so my, my key promise to you is that, and I think I'll pick up what Tori said, is that everybody needs to be, feel safe. To feel valued, uh, to feel respected, uh, and to be able to be who you want to be, regardless of what [00:10:00] anybody else says. And I will defend everybody's right to do that to the death. And it doesn't matter who you are in, in our community. I have this view that everybody deserves to, uh, to have their Turangawaewae. They're placed to stand. They're placed to be who they want to be, uh, how they want to be. And that's one of the things I think Wellington is pretty good at. But we've got to get better at it as well. Um, and, and I see times when there is a sense of trying, people trying to divide each other. And I think one of the things that, for me, being the Mayor, is to try to bring people [00:10:30] together. That is, is really, really important. Um, one of the things I'm, I'm proud of over the, the, um, There's many things that we've done over the last three years. One of the things I did want to particularly focus on is when we had the Speak Up for Women event at the Michael Fowler Centre. And I know that a lot of our transgender community felt, um, that they felt it uneasy about that, they felt threatened by that. And so, uh, myself and Councillors Fitzsimons and O'Neill, uh, worked together and we lit [00:11:00] up the Michael Fowler Centre while the speaking was going on inside. We lit up the Michael Fowler Centre in the colours of the trans flag, uh, and we had uh, an event outside to say. Basically, we support you, and that is my key message, is I support you, and I will continue to support you through thick and thin. Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa. Thanks, Andy, and remember, this has been recorded, and you did say to the [00:11:30] death. And I mean it. But I'm not, I'm not volunteering to go early. Well done. Ellen, would you like to share with us? Nā mihenui pōneke, nā mihi. Ranga aniwa niwa. Uh, nō reira tēnā koutou katoa. So I'd like to say vote Ellen Blake number one from here. I'm an independent candidate. Um, And I have a great vision for [00:12:00] Wellington. I think it's a wonderful city already, but I think we need to do a lot to solve some of our big issues. Um, but I think we have some strengths. And so my three kind of policy platforms, I think, all benefit the rainbow community. I'd be happy to talk about that some more, but I just wanted to make a, um, say a little bit about me and why my relationship with the rainbow community has been asked. So I grew up in Pōneke, um, and I always saw the rainbow presence here as a normal and valued part of living [00:12:30] here. Um, I used to go to school, um, I used to live up there and I'd walk down here to school and wander around town and, uh, walk past, um, Carmen's great outfit on Vivian Street and that was just, um, The way it was. So, um, So I know also that a lot of people come here to live in Wellington because it's quite an inclusive and accepting place, and I think that is fantastic. And it's particularly, you know, people who want to come and live in like, alternative [00:13:00] places that maybe you can't in the Wairarapa, for instance. So I want to be clear that I support the rights of all members. of the rainbow community. And I'm aware of some of the issues faced by the community. I don't know everything that's going on, but um, I'm also very open to talking some more about that. So I think that, um, as we've heard from other people, that all people should be able to live their lives free from fear and discrimination. And it's an important part of my vision for Wellington. Um, and I'm really keen as a [00:13:30] person that's involved in a lot of community activity to make sure that when we, um, come up with solutions for stuff in Wellington, that it's, we talked to local people to solve some of these big global issues, but also to making sure people feel safe and included in Wellington, that's really important. Um, vote Alan Blake. Thanks Alan. And thanks everyone for sticking to the time frames, I know it's hard. Um, okay, so the next question, this [00:14:00] is a 30 second one. And you have to take an item of clothing off, as you, no, just kidding. At the same time as answering the question, you have to take an item of clothing off. No, I'm just joking. Sorry, limb gone out on. Um, don't need to sign that, that bit. Sorry, the um, okay, so it's quite long. So there's history first. The Wellington City [00:14:30] Rainbow Advisory Panel was promised by former Mayor Justin Lester. During Andy Foster's tenure, the panel was formed. Question. How will members be chosen in future? Or what criteria will be used for choosing panel members in future? Have a little think. Tori, you're on. I know, first again. Life's like that sometimes. When you're [00:15:00] first, you're first. Don't, don't worry. Yeah, yeah. Um, so first of all, I want to say I'm 100 percent commit to this panel. I think it's incredibly important and our community need to be, as I said earlier, feeding directly into, um, uh, our policies. I think the way that I would do it, like, um, other panels is, is a nomination process and, and really working with organizations like yours and, and even the Green Party Rambo. A group as well to encourage those nominations and, [00:15:30] and I'd have to be very careful about who selected those, the successful panel, but, um, look, this is a hard question, but it is a hard question. Commit. That's why you got it first. Next one is Andy. Well, I'll echo the commitment to making sure the panel continues. I think the challenge with some of these panels in terms of selections is that the community itself is very diverse, and so making sure that every voice in that community feels that there is some [00:16:00] representation there. Um, and the same will be true, I mean, we've got an aspiration to set up an ethnic and faith community as well. Diversity is massive, so it's how you manage to make sure that everybody gets that voice there. So if there is an issue in how it's selected, then I think we Go back and we have a conversation, we have a hooey about how we do that selection. Um, because there is no right or wrong way. Okay. Got agreement there. Ellen. Sorry, I have to be a stand up person. [00:16:30] Um, so, yeah, I think it's a great idea to continue on with this panel. Good one. So, how do you pick people from the community? You ask the community, generally, is the best way. And if you have trouble, uh, getting Um, representation in perhaps the people who are most involved with the community. So I've seen that on other groups that you might be one person who is great but isn't that involved. So that's a, that's one way of helping that selection process. Thank you. [00:17:00] Thanks Helen. You guys are awesome. You're doing this so well. Next person is Paul. Yeah, look, I toutoko what's been said already, and I think it's been said. If there is an issue, then let's get the groups involved to reset it. And the greatest thing about an election is you've got a chance to reset it if things aren't right. So you can put it right. Um, but it very much has to be driven by the sector that, um, that the group represents. So that's [00:17:30] you guys. Thanks Paul. It must be right there. Right. Thanks. Um, all I can do is agree with what's already been spoken because it seems to be the, the, um, the most democratic and logical way of doing things. What I find with a lot of groups and, you know, not, um, looking at this group in particular, but I find that a lot of, um, uh, focus groups get hijacked by radicals. And different people. And this is in residence associations in [00:18:00] different places. So, I'm always trying to push for a democratic, um, method of doing things. Thanks. Cool. Thanks Ray. Um, the next question is um, Older people are more likely to become infected with COVID and this may even lead to death. COVID hasn't gone away. What would candidates do to encourage safety measures like masking? [00:18:30] Andy you got first. This is one of those where we take the, uh, the advice of, um, of the Ministry of Health. Um, I don't think any of us as politicians would be well placed to try and make up some form of, uh, mask wearing or some sort of, uh, regime which is different, uh, to the advice we're given. I think it is very much a choice at the moment that people, uh, can use. Um, for example, um, when you go into a rest home. Uh, then you're required to if you go into a facility where people are sick, a medical facility, you're required to at the moment. Uh, and I just think we continue [00:19:00] to, to take the advice that we've been given, the very good advice that's been given by, um, uh, by the, uh, by the Ministry of Health. Thank you. Does anyone disagree with that? Oh, you do. Oh, do you want to add to it? Go, you can go next, Tori. Um, I, I mean, yes, we should take the advice from central government, but I was personally disappointed with the advice. I don't think we were ready to drop a lot of the mandates. When we listen to our vulnerable communities and our disabled and immunocompromised folks, they are worried. You know, and I don't, I really do not think it's too [00:19:30] much to ask, uh, people to wear masks in an internal space. Uh, I do about 90 percent of the time. I'm not today because I'm a speaker. Um, so, I, I share that concern and I feel that concern and, um Thank you. Go, Ellen. Ellen can go next. Thanks. I'm sorry, I'm going to have to stand up. I just can't do sitting down. So, um I really support the public health measures that have been in place, and I'll take advice from the Ministry of Health definitely, but [00:20:00] um, also I think as a leader that you can lead by example, and so I wore my mask in here today, um, and I think that's a really, uh, positive thing that you can do, so, yeah. Thanks, Ellen. Um, do either of you want to contribute further, or? No? Did you want to add anything further? No? Thank you, we covered it. So, Sandra's got a question, and this one, she's testing my reading abilities, okay? So, Sandra's question, listen up, I'll only say it once. [00:20:30] Um, the government's own survey says sexuality diverse folks, especially bisexual people, experience more crime, feel less safe, and are less likely to report violence. all kinds of violence than, than straight, or I'd say pre or post gay folks. Um, this survey doesn't yet ask enough trans or non binary folks to be able to [00:21:00] report, but everything else tells us trans folks are targeted for all forms of violence, all the time. What do you think the city council, oh, the city could, sorry not council, could be doing to improve safety and well being of Takatapui and Rainbow folks? Including violence prevention and a sub question is would you consider a zero tolerance policy on this in the city? [00:21:30] First person to answer is Is it Tori? No. Ellen! Okay, um, so it's a big. This one's one minute. Okay, this is a big question, so it's good there's more time, but um, so there's a lot of things that people can do, that city, a city council can do to make a city feel safer, and a lot of it can be like long term design and infrastructure stuff, so you have better lighting, you don't have funny little [00:22:00] corners on, on buildings, um, you make it easy to walk. and don't have to wait at traffic lights like out here. Three minutes in the middle of the night is not much fun, so you can change things like that. Um, but there's also, you know, the Paniki, is it Paniki? Porniki? Um, that's the name of the program that's happening at the moment, so some of those things might help. Um, but also, Like, one of my real platforms is that we have better public transport and better walking connections, and I think [00:22:30] making public transport frequent and efficient is really important for getting, not, no, not just safety, but climate action as well, which is a different kind of safety, isn't it? So, um, making the buses go faster than the cars. So that, that's an option for people, um, to, to use. Thanks Alan. Next, next answer from, and this question was from Sandra, is Tori. [00:23:00] Um, I, this question is actually incredibly important to me, so I'll start by saying it's really important for leaders in privileged positions like the mayoralty, and credit to Andy, because he has done this, is we need to advocate for trans rights. Trans women are women. Trans men are men, and end of, end of story. Um, so I, if I was lucky enough to be mayor, I'd continue the good work of Andy, uh, and advocate for those rights. Uh, we talked [00:23:30] about, um, a panel before, so we must have, um, a trans representative on that group. And it is about making, uh, inputting into the, that safety policy, Pōneke Promise. Um, and just creating those safe spaces where, um, where they can just be. And, um, Look, I suppose I'm just saying that I would be a passionate advocate, um, and ensure that your voice was heard in all of our policies, especially our safety policy, mental health policy, uh, and others. Thank you.[00:24:00] There's two things that I think we need to do. The first one of them, Paniki promises about the way in which we organise the city, the city, the safety and CCTV and lighting and working with police and hospo and um, DCM and all those sort of organisations. It's actually a second generation and if you go back to the first generation of safety initiatives which Steph Cook, uh, brought in many years ago, that happened because, um, Geoff Whittington, um, a [00:24:30] young 14 year old, uh, gay boy was beaten up and died as a result of that. And I think Um, so we can do the physical stuff, but the other stuff that's really, really important is for us as leaders to stand up and say, this is not okay. It is not okay that anybody is beaten up, not okay that anybody is bullied for who they are. And so for me, that mantra of being inclusive And supportive of everybody. And one part of that supportiveness is also that we, we do awards from time to time. Uh, that's, it might be a small thing, but sometimes to recognize the [00:25:00] people. Like the other day we had the absolutely Positively Wellington Awards and we recognized Scotty and Mel for their fabulous work that they have done in this, uh, in the rainbow community. So it's celebrating the, the heroes of the, the rainbow community as well. Thanks, Sandy Ray. Thank you. Um, I, I, I find this quite a difficult question because. My basic tenet is that, um, um, the more you divide people, the more divisive people [00:25:30] become. I found this when I was working in South Africa that, um, under the apartheid era, that The, um, the longer it went on, the worse, the worse it actually affected each of these different groups. So, I found, we set up a factory in, in Africa, and um, so we employed people from the different groups to actually work in there, and I found that the best way to actually get people together was to actually treat them exactly the same, so. I, you know, I, I find it very hard to, um, say that we're gonna have one policy or one [00:26:00] law for one group of people and, and another one for another, and, and I think that this, um, the Paneke Promise that we have, I think that's a policy that is, um, over promising and under delivering. If you look at, um, Pigeon Park, you know, they took the car parks away and put pot plants in there. I really don't think that's gonna change anything. Thanks. And Paul, thank you. Oh look, just to mirror what's been said, but I think you do as a leader need to be really overt about this and just integrate it into the conversations and I've really seen just being part [00:26:30] of the Pride Parade, I've seen you Mr Allardyce. Um, but that has changed, I see, you know, a real confidence in Wellington and I think the next, the mayor of your city, the capital city, I talk about restoring the mana of Wellington in terms of a vision and this is a big part of it. But I think just overt, not normalising, just sort of celebrating it, doing more. That's me. Thanks Paul. Um, [00:27:00] the next question is from Rainbow, Rainbow Young Person. I'm not very good at reading, I'm sorry. But anyway, safe spaces are important to our communities. These need to include spaces that are quiet and reflective. Does the future mayor have any plans to create parks? We'll transform, transform common spaces into LGBTQ plus space, places where [00:27:30] we can reflect on our past leaders and triumphs and be inspired to follow in their footsteps. First one is, and this we'll do a minute, two and a minute. Senator? Andy? Well, I can tell you, um, some things that we are doing. Um, the, the central city is, is probably the core part of this. Um, so we've obviously, we've set up a community centre, which, um, used to be the old capital liquor building, and I was on the, The [00:28:00] licensing hearing, um, which we kind of, this is causing a problem, so we got rid of it, and we've got a community space in there which is being really well used. We are going to be setting up a youth hub fairly very, fairly soon, again in the Courtney Place area, and that's been co designed with young people, so I would hope Rainbow Youth have been involved in co designing that, because that's a space that is going to be used and operated the way that young people want it to be operated. And the other one which we've talked about is, is a space in the library, if you want that. Quiet reflective space, so in the new library that we have that sort of space, it will be [00:28:30] co shared, co designed, co managed, whatever, you know, emblems from whoever it is, the rainbow community, other communities as well. But it's a space that people will be able to use as a quiet contemplative space in our brand new and really exciting library. Thanks, Andy. Ray? Because I don't really know, um, um the, the feelings from each of these different groups about, um, what they actually want, [00:29:00] um, where they actually want it, how, how different a situation they, they actually want to have these, um, these places. Um, I don't really have much comment on that, but I agree, I sort of agree with what Andy's just said, and I think that, um, you know, I think that we could have some joint spaces, thanks. So, I think that's a really cool idea actually. One of my platforms is that there are some significant gaps [00:29:30] in our Green Park network. We don't provide for girls, we don't provide very well for teenagers, we don't provide for disabled kids, and we certainly don't provide anywhere for people with cognitive impairments of things. So, some of those places require, um, calm. Peaceful places and being in green is really good for your mental health as well, but I think having an LGBTQ, um, one would be really cool as well. Um, so, let's do it. There's significant gaps in who, who has access to some of those spaces, [00:30:00] so that's outside space. Obviously, we're in this fantastic church at the moment, which I think, um, a lot of churches provide space for people to come and be quiet, and there's, the council's doing other things inside as well, so, let's just do it. Thanks, Ellen. Thanks, Ellen. Um Next was Paul. Yeah I think the ideas that have been talked about look, um, are great and we talked about the advisory group and maybe integrating this onto their agenda, um, [00:30:30] if you know, just to, I guess there's one thing that we could normalise and actually integrate into things, so rather than thinking that we need to find a space in the afterthought you know, when public housing and public spaces are being built it's just integrated in. So that's one thing I would like to champion and to normalize. Thanks for it. Yeah, I mean I'm basically just rewording what you said, which is having your lens. All of our [00:31:00] public spaces and community spaces to make sure that they feel safe for you. However, I do support a separate space as well, because this is about feeling safe. This is your space without needing to worry about, um, you know, the judgments or thoughts of other people, because we come with our different world views. In the same way that I would feel safe on a marae and want to reflect, I think we need We do need, um, to encourage separate spaces for, for various groups, uh, for marginalized groups. So, yeah, that's what I would add to what has been [00:31:30] said. Thanks, Corrie. Um, next question is, uh, from Henry. It would be good to hear their thoughts on what the council's role is with support for rainbow organizations in Wellington. 30 seconds. And starting with Tori. Oh, there you go. So support for rainbow organizations. Uh, yes. Council, I mean, council [00:32:00] support. I mean, I would 100% support, but what, um, maybe there's a dollar value on it. I hate to, oh, as it might be. I, it's not my question, but just. Do you think there might be a budget for this somewhere, or? I don't know, I don't know. I will add it to the budget. So you're going to put a line item, is what you're saying? I will put a line item in. This has been recorded.[00:32:30] Back to basics. Is that a million cents? Let's keep it real. Um, okay, so, yeah. A line item? Yeah, go on then. And of course, input into that whole panel development as well. Okay, thank you, Tori. So, we're on the short ones. Ray? Um, my platform, um, in running is, um, on two things. And first is getting the infrastructure done before anything else. And the second is to stop council, [00:33:00] um, spending and wastage on, um, focused projects. So I would, following this line, I would resist, um, Council spending any money on, on anything. However, um, I may put the money in myself, and I've said that before on various projects that, um, um, that are going to cost a significant amount of money, I will pay for it myself. Thanks, Ray. Sorry to cut you off. Paul. Yeah, [00:33:30] look, I'm not sure how much the city puts in right now, um, in terms of a line item, that, that, I'm not sure if they They actually have one. One thing I'd be keen to add is to see what we could do from central government. They've allocated money, for example, um, the mental health, the 4. 6 million there for, uh, for Rainbow Youth and making sure that lots comes to Wellington, the capital city. And to make sure that our People are getting what we deserve, and [00:34:00] so it is a competitive experience at times, but to champion that. Thank you. Andy? I was going to say, Paul, you're well placed to do that in your current role. Yeah. Just a hint. Just a hint. Um, look, I think the, um Andy just told Paul to stay there. Okay. And he's just fine. Um, I think, I think what's being [00:34:30] referred to, I mean we do have a pretty significant grants pool and I'm trying to remember roughly how much it is overall but I'm going to say it's probably in the order of about 10 million dollars. Um, and I do know that we support a number of rainbow organizations, um, through that, but I couldn't tell you the details of that. That's where I would say we make that support. I think one of the things that I, I'm going to give Paul credit here, um, is the, the idea of making sure that long, that we actually give longer term grants rather than short term ones. So give people certainty and organization [00:35:00] certainty. So I think that's something which we should be doing. Thanks, Andy. Ellen. So, um, yeah, I'm just going to say that there are community grants available from Council for a whole lot of groups, and they do some quite good support, and the idea of long term funding is really good for a whole lot of groups. So, but the other thing I was going to say was that, um, one of the things I talk about is healing from COVID. I think we actually need to do, take some active action to heal and get people to come back together. I think we've all been in little [00:35:30] boxes for far too long. And so one of those things would be to have, um, one of them would be open street events, but I'd also really welcome, um, you know, a rainbow event. Thanks, Helen. Thanks, everyone. Great stuff. Now, has anyone got any questions from the floor, as it were? Oh, you're closest. And then we'll go to, um, at the back. Testing, testing. Wayne. Hi everyone. Um, yes I am a friend and supporter of [00:36:00] Tories and I'm wearing this sash, but um, I have a lot of respect for everyone up there. I just want to ask this question, and she doesn't know the answer to this question because I just made it up now. But um, effectively, I'm really interested in about you as people and it's about your leadership style. Um, can you please tell me about, what is it about you as a person, what is it about how you operate as a leader, which means you can bring a diverse range of people towards your vision, but also, bring a diverse range of people to, to want to work with and for [00:36:30] you. Very important in this current climate, um, and we'll give you 30 seconds, because if you can't get around 30 seconds, you've been turned on, go. First one is, um, that one. Tori. Oh, again. Um, my leadership style is to basically, um, even if not technically, remove hierarchy. So, it's, it's about ensuring that people feel like they're an equal part of the process, that whatever the strategy is, the vision is, they have a part to play, and that's exactly what I [00:37:00] would do on council, and what I've done at parliament is, whether it's workshopping, whatever, MPs have a say, staff have a say, and then, they just kind of like, that's the way you kind of bring them on the journey. Um, I created a really safe and inclusive, inclusive environment at the Green Party and it's something I'm really proud of. Um, but it's just Okay. Well done. Sorry. It's amazing. Anyway, Ray. [00:37:30] Go. Thanks. Thanks. Again, um, when I've run, um, um, teams of, um, of people sort of looking after different areas, I've always tried to treat them all absolutely equal. Because I find that when you start showing favoritism or you, you start giving particular people or groups more time, that's when the, the problem starts. So I, I would continue that and I will treat everyone absolutely equal. Thanks Ray. Andy. [00:38:00] Yeah, look, I think it's about bringing everybody together, so it's not just the people who are around the council table, it's also the officers, it's also the community that's involved in those, uh, whatever the issues might be. It's building up the, uh, the information, the case, uh, it's logical, it's strategically coherent, it fits in with everything else. So, um, it's sometimes it can, it can be really, really simple, it's blindingly obvious, other times it's a lot more complicated. So, but it is getting all the voices together. And as I said earlier, I think one of the things which we've got in this community is people pulling each other apart. And I think we've got to bring people together so that people [00:38:30] can hear each other and go, maybe I'll test my own thinking as to whether I'm right or not. Nice. Thanks, Ellen. Okay, so um, my kind of experience that I really value is having done a lot of work with community NGO groups, so, um, they, people come because they're voluntarily, so they can leave pretty quickly too if you don't look after them well, um, so some of it is having that kind of common vision about where you're going and getting people to buy in and just, I just really value that everybody, [00:39:00] Has a right to be here. Um, that's where I start from and it's really important to me that people don't get, um, elbowed out of the way and that we all find a way that all of all of us can, um, work together and live together. Paul, Paul? Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, um, the, the, the work that I've done really at the grassroots too, so I know many, many community groups and have been involved in trying to [00:39:30] achieve their aspirations. And I think that's one of the greatest things, is that I'm integrated into what they want to do. And, um, and they will define, uh, and work with me on saying, look, here's where we need help. And so I'm really happy to be just a player as part of the team, as well as take different roles, take the lead role. Um, I note the power imbalance that comes with the role that I have, and that's something that I'm aware of. I just want to add that I make the organisation [00:40:00] feel like one big whanau. That's, that's what I was meant to end with. Thank you. Thanks Tori. Is that one big you? Wow! Wow! Sorry. My goodness. It's going visual. Um, Did you want to have a question Wayne? Oh, sorry, over here, sorry. Um, this is just getting a little more specific about a question that was asked earlier. Um, so, uh, I believe it's the Counting Ourselves survey that showed that [00:40:30] around one in five trans people will experience homelessness over the course of their lifetime. They're also quite likely to experience sexual violence. But a lot of the services that are available, both in housing and sexual violence, are not. receptive to their needs, and so a lot of trans people will just not go to them. Like, a lot of trans homelessness doesn't look necessarily like going to those shelters. It looks like crashing on your friend's couch, or doing survival sex so that you can get a roof over your head, that kind of thing. So, what I want to know is what [00:41:00] each candidate proposes to do to improve those services, and to make sure that there are trans specific services. available. Um, I would also request in the answers, like, please just stick to talking about trans stuff. I'm not interested in general stuff about public transport or comparisons to apartheid or whatever. So yeah, what, what are the specific policies you would have for trans, non binary, intersex people, people who need those kind of services? Thank you. And will a, will a [00:41:30] 30, will a 30 second reply be okay? Yep, sure. So 30 seconds starting, Andy's first. I suppose the first thing I would ask is a question as to what that looks like for you and how that would work and how we can make it work because as I said we need to be inclusive about our housing to make sure that there's housing for everybody. Probably the biggest thing that we're doing at the moment is setting up a community housing provider so we can actually build more social housing. If we can build more, I hope that some of that will be able to be more trans, um, specific. But I'd be [00:42:00] really interested in actually having more dialogue to actually understand what that looks like. Probably look like cheaper rents. Cheaper rents. Cheaper rents. Well, okay, so cheaper rents. So I can, I can answer that one because Yeah, because Maybe, because I know that you Just a question. So that's not the statement? That's a statement, not a question. [00:42:30] So she's saying that it's hard to believe because it'd be at some property investors conference or something. Um, we have lots of conferences in Wellington. Um, it's one of the things that Wellington does really, really well because we're a place where people come together to have lots of conferences. And if people ask me to, as Mayor, to, um, support a conference which is in Wellington, generally speaking, I will do that. Doesn't matter who it is, within reason. Cool. Thank you. Next one is Paul. [00:43:00] Yeah, look, I'd certainly like to better understand what um, what, you know, if the services aren't working and the providers that you are dealing with aren't delivering, then I'd be happy to facilitate a conversation with those providers to say, look, these just simply aren't working for our people. If it sounds like we need, um, you're saying it sounds like we need more affordable housing, then that's going to take time. But I know that we've been, I've sat in this church for a previous meeting. And there have been other community housing providers here who are [00:43:30] looking at homes that could help. Ray's next. Go Ray. Thanks, I've also had various discussions, um, Housing always comes up, community housing always comes up, social housing always comes up. And so, I would I would look, need to talk to all the parties involved, because I don't, I really don't understand enough about it to differentiate between one group and another.[00:44:00] Ellen. Thanks, good, good question. I'll try not to get onto public transport, one of my favourite things, but um, that, that, I know, I work in um, a low cost housing option for women, for transitional housing, and I know it's really hard to um, To find spaces. So, I don't, I don't really have an answer for trans and LGBTQ people in particular, but I know that there's a real shortage of emergency and transitional housing now, and there's [00:44:30] also a real shortage of affordable long term housing. I really support public housing, I really support council housing, I really support the government providing public housing, and I think that's, in a way, it's the only way to get, um, address some of the affordability issue. Tory. Um, 100 percent support community housing, uh, and social housing, and trying to work with the government to extend, uh, the income, uh, related subsidy, um, and also working with the government to look at, kind of, uh, some regulations around rent to, [00:45:00] so for that, for particular groups, we can look at things like rental caps and, and lowering it, because at the moment it's just not affordable, and we want our community to be here in Wellington. It's too expensive. In terms of access to, um, services around sexual violence, um, whether it's, uh, I'm a, I'm a, um, uh, a volunteer for Wellington Rape Crisis and Women's Refuge, so whether it's about incorporating into those groups or creating a separate one, I'd want to work with the community to decide on which was the correct one to do. Thanks, Tori.[00:45:30] Hey, Michelle, I think for the next couple of questions, let's just do one or two candidates and you just select. Sure. Okay, I select them. Okay. No pressure. I've lived in Wellington for 34 years, um, I know that Wellington City has sister cities in other parts of the world, uh, I have very little idea of what that looks like in terms of what actually happens.[00:46:00] I would like to know what candidates, uh, proposals candidates have to enhance those relations and in particular with the rainbow communities and our sister cities in other parts of the world. Thanks, Wayne. Good question. You must have been here since kindergarten. It's, um, Tori. Sandy's there got the microphone, you might as well start. Oh, yeah, I think, I think the idea of sister cities is, is damn exciting and it's something that I hugely support and I know we already have established that with a couple, um, [00:46:30] overseas. Um, I don't know how to answer this question, to be honest. Just that I fully support it, but, yeah. I'm not even going to try a waffle. Andy, do you want to answer or Paul? Does anyone have a Yeah, look, I've certainly been, I've had the opportunity when I was, um, Deputy Mayor to go to Osaka in Japan, so it's um, Sakai is one of Wellington's sister cities. Um, but with your lens on it saying, hey, look, how do we connect better with the rainbow [00:47:00] community? Yeah, why not? I mean, this is part of the, you know, when these itineraries are done up, then we should be engaging better. I mean, I think we take Well look, that was about seven years ago, um, there's generally a business or an economic focus. Uh, we could put a people in a rainbow focus on a trip too. Thanks, Paul. Andy? Well, I had a meeting today with, uh, some members of our Greek community about, uh, deepening the relationship between us and our [00:47:30] sister city, Chania. We've got, actually got ten sister cities, but the one I will focus on is Canberra. So, um, I went to Canberra a couple of months ago, uh, and we had a specific meeting with the office of LGBTQI Uh, affairs, which is a really, really positive, uh, conversation. Of course, Andrew, Andrew Barr is proudly gay, the chief minister of, uh, ACT. And in fact, he attended, uh, the Rainbow Wellington AGM last year, I think it was, too. So, there, and, and, so there's a real keenness to develop that relationship between the Canberra community and our community, and have an [00:48:00] MOU specifically between the two Rainbow communities. So, I think there's some real mileage there. Thanks. We'll, we'll just go on to the next question. Next question, is that Jeremy? Go for it. My question is to, to, especially to all candidates if possible, especially to Andy, in response to a comment that Andy made a few minutes ago, Andy, you said that You give out, I think you said you give out [00:48:30] grants to the Rainbow community of, or to the tune of ten No, no, no, no. No, sorry, what did you say? There's ten million dollars in grants available. Yeah, ten million dollars. Look, to be fair, I'm not quite sure what the number is, but I think it's around that kind of number that there'll be some Rainbow organisations within that. So, no, we certainly do not give ten million dollars to any part of the community in terms of grants. It's split among a whole range of different organisations. Right, you're not sure, but, yeah. I was going to say, if you, if you could, would you, [00:49:00] would you, if you could, would you improve, would you increase that grant pool? The way we do grants, um, is that, um, organisations, um, make applications for grants and they're across a whole range of different, um, so social, cultural, um, community, etc. Um, areas, and they go to, through, you know, officers give advice, and, and a committee makes decisions around those. I think the one thing probably is that for organisations which are long standing organisations, if we can make those grants [00:49:30] longer, so that there is greater certainty for, for them. Um, in terms of the actual amount, I mean, that's something which we would make a decision on as part of our budget, and it does get lifted periodically, um, and is significantly higher than it used to be. And of course that, that largely is effectively spread across the community and across all of those different, um, organisations. Any dissent? Hearing none, next question. Uh, Kia ora. Um, I want to start by just quickly prefacing, and not going on too long, that I am one of [00:50:00] those one in five trans people that was homeless, and that was earlier this year. While I heard a lot of answers that direct the answers around housing affordability in the long run, I want to know what candidates have immediate and, uh, immediate plans to actually address, uh, trans rights and trans inclusivity, um, rather than long term plans. Cool. Did you ask that? Get on the mic and ask a question. What do you want to [00:50:30] ask? Trans rights and trans inclusivity. What are your immediate plans to increase, uh, trans, um, Yeah, to support trans rights rather than long term plans. But housing's already in there, is that right, as well? I mean, like, housing was mentioned before, but I think every housing answer there, which was focused on before, was focused on long term housing, and I'm talking about more immediate things, um, you know, the kind of things that can actually happen within the first Six months to a year. Is there anything [00:51:00] particularly you're looking for? Well, I mean, that's exactly my question. I mean, I have things in my, uh, I, I have ideas in my brain, but I'm interested to hear in what the candidates here have in terms of initiatives that they think could better support our community. Ellen, do you have some clarity? Go for it. I'm not sure this is going to answer your question exactly, but for trans rights I think some of the things that we've just been talking about, the grants and community grants for groups, um, supporting [00:51:30] maybe a better housing option for trans people in particular, um, having a park that, or a space, um, that for people, trans people, LGB, rainbow, sorry I can never get the names out. That's some of those sort of things. I'm not sure if that's exactly what you're after, but that would be something that you could achieve in three years, I think. Toria, did you have something? Um, I kind of want to touch on what I said at the beginning. So, [00:52:00] first and foremost, I think it's really up to the Mayor to advocate for trans rights, uh, and providing a safe space to actually hear from the community, uh, what, what you'd like to see. I've, based on what I've been, uh, what I've heard, some priorities that I would make is, um, you know, we discussed housing and rents before. I would like more, um, quicker access to mental health support, uh, and alcohol drug, uh, harm reduction. And just essentially creating a safe space, uh, for us [00:52:30] to, uh, collaborate and, and for you to feel heard and to push against hateful groups that are undermining your rights. Thanks, Tori. Um, we've got another question here, sure. Uh, kia ora. Um, this is just a very quick sort of yes no thing for all of them. Um, but can we just get on the record whether or not you believe that trans women are real women and whether trans men are real men? 100%! So that's a [00:53:00] yes no answer for all of you. So, Ray, what was your answer? Start with you. I actually don't know. I haven't, um, I haven't looked at that, so I don't know. Paul, yes from Paul. A hard yes. Hard, hard yes. Yes, okay, thanks. What's a hard yes look like? Yes, yes. A big yes. Yes. Okay, so that was the unanimous yes with, [00:53:30] um, anyway. Go Ray. Shut up Hamish. See why I don't interpret anything. Um So, is that it for today? Yeah, I think we'll just wrap it up there because you guys have to get up to Auckland for 7 o'clock. But, um, just on behalf of Rainbow Wellington, just a big thank you. You'll see one of these in your pew. This is a little bit of the work that we do, um, and you can find out a little bit more about us. We've got a number of campaigns that we're working on. One of [00:54:00] the things that we have is a patronage with the Mayor of Wellington. So, that's Andy Foster at the moment, and we've been able to do a number of things with Andy and put the pressure on the Mayor. So we hope that you guys will all Uh, say yes, um, yeah, and we, and um, and we've been able, yeah, been able to have some hard and frank conversations with Andy, and I have really appreciated that, so that's, that's good. Um, but one of the things that I would, I would love that you guys would commit to is within the first couple of months of you [00:54:30] coming on board is actually having a bit of a hooey. And with the specific groups to say, and actually sit down and listen to exactly the needs. Um, and none of the bullshit, just really listening, you know? Um, it would be my, my thing. Yeah. So very good statement. So for the tape, just a quick yes, no. Are we going to do it, Alan? Sounds like a great idea. Yes. Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. Yes. Yes, but I wouldn't like the council to put any money into it, I'll pay for it myself. [00:55:00] Perfect, love that. Oh, well done, Ray. Self funded, okay. Um, yeah, so thank you very much, community, for coming tonight, um, and for being honest and open with your questions. Um, they do have to get to another thing, so I do have to cut it off there. Sorry if you weren't able to ask your question. Um, but yeah, we'll be sticking around if you've got any questions for the Rainbow Wellington board. Thank you very much. And thank, I get the last word. Spread out. So um, thanks, thanks heaps Kevin for Karaki at the beginning. [00:55:30] Thanks for your vulnerability in asking the questions. Sometimes Uh, when we have to ask questions, it makes us, you know, feel extremely vulnerable. So thanks for being willing to come along and share that. Thanks to Lucas, our wonderful timekeeper. I couldn't have done that. I don't have the attention span, clearly. And, um, and Wayne and, uh, and Craig. And, um, remember, if you want to listen to this again, because remember, their responses were on tape here. So I've just moved back from Cairns and we had a [00:56:00] mayor who said, We will do this, we will do this, we will do this. And of course, once he was mayor, he didn't do anything. It's Australia after all. And um, but nobody had recorded it. So we really love, love the fact that this is recorded. So thanks to Gareth from, um, Pride New Zealand. There's a website. And if you want to, if you want to hear more of me, I'm on there. I feature. Yeah, no, it's all right. Be a part of this community. You'll [00:56:30] feature as well. Thanks very much.

IRN: 3520
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/gareth_watkins_roger_smith_chrissy_witoko_carmen_rupe_memorial_seats.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004681
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093071
TITLE: Gareth Watkins and Roger Smith - Chrissy Witoko and Carmen Rupe memorial seats
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Gareth Watkins; Roger Smith
INTERVIEWER: Karen Harris
TAGS: 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; 2020s; Andy Foster; Aotearoa New Zealand; Broadcasting House; Carmen Rupe; Carmen's traffic light; Celia Wade-Brown; Chanel Hati; Chrissy Witoko; Chrissy Witoko Memorial Trust; Cuba Street; Evergreen Coffee House; Fran Wilde; Gender Minorities Aotearoa (GMA); Glenda Hughes; Grant Robertson; Hastings; Helen Kelly; Intersex Inclusive Progress Pride Flag; Irawhiti Takatāpui; Jacquie Grant; Jurgen Hoffman; Justin Lester; Karen Harris; Leilani Sio; Louisa Wall; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Mark Blumskey; Mayor of Wellington; Mental Health Awareness Week; Michael Fowler; Ministry for Culture and Heritage; New Zealand Portrait Gallery; Poutokomanawa: The Carmen Rupe Generation (exhibition, 2019); QUILTED BANANAS (Wellington Access Radio); Rainbow Crossing (Wellington); Rainbow Precinct; Rally for Marriage Equality; Renee Paul; Robin Waerea; Scott Kennedy; Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar; Taumarunui; Taupuruariki Brightwell; Tāmati Coffey; Tīwhanawhana; Vivian Street; Walktours NZ; Wellington; Wellington City Council; abortion; blessing; cafe; equality; facebook. com; homosexual law reform; marriage equality; mayor; memorial; pridenz. com; queen; seat; takatāpui; transgender; walk tour; whakatauki
DATE: 17 September 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Karen Harris from QUILTED BANANAS talks to Gareth and Roger about the background to the Chrissy Witoko and Carmen Rupe memorial seats. The seats will be unveiled on the 1 October 2022 and are located on the corner of Cuba and Vivian Streets, Wellington.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: November 2023
TEXT: It's great this morning to have with us, uh, Gareth and Roger from Pride MZ. So, morena. Morena. Ah, kia ora. Great to have you here. So, um, I know that we've, um, got together this morning to have a chat about a specific event that you've, uh, got coming up that we'll, um, talk a little bit more about in a second. Um, but just Gareth and Roger, I know, I know, I know lots of our... Um, listeners will recognize your names and your voices, but um, can you do a little intro for us and tell us, um, who [00:00:30] you are and where you're from? Well, uh, kia ora, my name's Gareth Watkins and I'm kind of born and bred in, in, uh, Wellington, New Zealand and have been running Pride NZ for the last, whew, about 13 years. It was 2009 when. Prior to NZ First started, but actually have been doing a lot of, um, kind of documenting of Takatapui rainbow histories way back to the 1990s. Well, kia ora, uh, my name's Roger [00:01:00] Smith. I'm originally from Dunedin, uh, but I've spent most of my life here in Wellington. Um, I'm Gareth's husband and, uh, I play a fairly small role as far as Pride NZ goes, um, support and encouragement more than actual physical recording of interviews and things. But together we run Walktours NZ, um, where we do rainbow walktours around Wellington city and have a lot of fun doing that. And we've been doing that for about five years. Yes. Yeah. Oh, is that five [00:01:30] years now? I know, I know. We keep saying the same jokes, and keep saying that they're not getting older, but we're getting older, and the jokes are still the same. The laughs aren't getting any stronger, but anyway. No, if a joke's good, it's always worth saying five times. That's what I, uh, always say. Oh, well, thank you for that. And so, um, this morning, um, I got in touch with you, um, because of an event that you've got coming up, um, I think on the 1st of October around, um, the seat [00:02:00] unveiling for, uh, Chrissie Whittakow and, uh, Karma Rupa. Is that, can you tell us just a little bit more about that? Yes, well that, that's, that's exactly it really. It's an unveiling, it's a gifting of two, uh, seats, two public seats which will have, uh, plaques on them, uh, one each for Krissi Wutoko and one for, uh, Carmen Rupe, and really they are, uh, memorialising them, uh, and it's a way of remembering them. two leading rainbow [00:02:30] figures, um, sadly departed now. Uh, and it's located, the seats will be located on the corner of Vivian and Cuba Streets, which is right in the center, absolutely right, um, bang in the center of where their lives were in Wellington. Carmen had businesses up and down Cuba Street and around that area and along Vivian Street. Um, Chrissy was well known for her business, the Evergreen Cafe, which was just. really just a few meters away from where these seats are going to be. [00:03:00] So yes, the event on Saturday the 1st at, uh, 3. 30 is going to be, uh, the unveiling of these two seats. And it's, it's interesting because this, this whole thing has really grown. Um, the original idea we had was, uh, we had been inspired by a number of events that had happened in Wellington over, over the last couple of years. Uh, there was, uh, the common rupee. generation, um, exhibition at the Portrait Gallery a couple of years ago, [00:03:30] where people just spoke so fondly of both Carmen and Chrissie. And then very recently there was a, an event at Museums Wellington or Wellington Museum, uh, put on by Le Laniceo. uh, and that was amazing. It was talking about evergreen, remembering about the evergreen coffee lounge, which, uh, Chrissie ran for almost two decades. And again, the warmth and the love shown to both Chrissie and Carmen was so evident that really inspired us. And we thought, Oh, wouldn't it be amazing to have a plaque on, on a seat [00:04:00] somewhere in central Wellington. And we were thinking, you know, maybe around the rainbow precinct. by the Rainbow Crossing, um, you know, just one, one part because they are quite expensive to put in. Uh, and we thought, okay, well, let's, um, put that idea out to council. And so we, um, I, I think the colloquial term is spammed, um, as many people in the council as possible. Um, and just seeing, oh, you know, this is actually a really cool idea. Um, we, we, we can, uh, [00:04:30] get some private funding for, for part of it. Um, but, you know, with the council come on board. Um, almost immediately we got a response back from, um, uh, the mayor, Andy Foster. I, I, I, I, to be honest, I wasn't expecting the mayor to pick up our email, but he did, which was amazing. Um, and he passed that on, he was very, he endorsed the project and passed it on to the culture and heritage team at the city council and also the transport, uh, public transport team. Um, and they came [00:05:00] back to us and they said, look, um, Rather than just one plaque on a seat in Lower Cuba Street, how would you feel if we installed two new seats on the corner of Cuba and Vivian Street and had a plaque for each Carmen and Chrissie? And, well look, it took us about, you know, five seconds to decide that was a good idea. Um, and, and said, wow, that is amazing. And so... Not only are we, um, celebrating, uh, Carmen and Chrissy, but we're also, you know, we [00:05:30] think we're kind of extending out that Rainbow Precinct to which was around the kind of, uh, Cuba Dixon Street area to, to, uh, go further up Cuba Street. And hopefully within a couple of years we can make the whole kind of Central Wellington a Rainbow Precinct. Yeah, that would, I like your, um, your aiming big there and, um, but you're right, it kind of, yeah, it does really starts to open it up, doesn't it, from, um, from just maybe the Cuba Street area. So, and I'll ask you a little bit more about Chrissy and Carmen specifically in a moment, but in [00:06:00] terms of the actual seat unveiling, so obviously it sounds like the council have been really supportive of that. Um, so, so on the actual day, what will that look like? Will the council be part of that event as well? What will it actually look like on the day? On the day there will be a Ceremony, I suppose you could call it, uh, at S and M's, um, which is really just over the road from where the seats are going to be, um, and the ceremony will involve, uh, some speeches from people including, uh, [00:06:30] the Mayor, Andy Foster, um, we're hoping that Grant Robertson will be there and will say a few words, also, um, we will have hopefully, um, Sai Witoku, who is Chrissie's brother, um, saying a few words and, um, For Carmen, Uh, well, we've got, um, some words coming from Carmen's executors in Sydney. Um, and, and, and they're really important because, uh, Jurgen and Robin have, [00:07:00] um, been instrumental in, in really, um, uh, remembering Carmen in a whole variety of ways. So, uh, they. brought Carmen's taonga back to New Zealand for going into Te Papa, for gifting into Te Papa. Um, and they were also involved with, um, uh, the Carmen's pedestrian traffic lights on Cuba Street. Um, and so the council has had an involvement with, uh, Eugen and Robin. Uh, I should also say that we have [00:07:30] got, uh, Jackie Grant coming up from the West Coast. Um, and Jackie was, um, a close friend of Carmen's, uh, well, and, and Chrissie's. So, um, is of that generation and, uh, will be able to speak, um, firsthand. And, and you think, gosh, you know, um, isn't, isn't it wonderful to have firsthand accounts of Carmen and Chrissie? Which, you know, maybe in, you know, 20, 30 years time, uh, that won't be the case. So after, after the speeches, uh, supported by, I'm really [00:08:00] thrilled to say Te Whanau Whanau, we'll cross the road and we will have, uh, an unveiling of the two plaques. And that unveiling is going to involve, um, the lifting of two progressive, uh, rainbow flags. Which, uh, we're hoping to get signed by everyone who is there, uh, and, uh, then they will each be, uh, lifted to reveal these plaques, um, and that will be about 4. 30, we're thinking, uh, on Saturday, the 1st of October. And [00:08:30] the, the Master of Ceremonies is going to be Mal Vaughan from Scotty and Mal's, and Scotty and Mal's is 176... Cuba Street. Uh, both Scotty and, um, Scotty and Mel, uh, were absolute friends of, of Carmans and Chrissies, and Scotty and Mel also were instrumental in, uh, forming the Chrissie Wetuku Memorial Trust, uh, which was established shortly after Chrissie died in 2002. And it's been really great to have their support for this project too. [00:09:00] Yeah, totally. I mean, um, that sounds like, um, obviously a great specific event, but also like you say, kind of, you know, having back in from people like Chrissy's brother, um, and, you know, people that were, um, Jackie Grant, I think you said, you know, people that, that knew them. Um, and, uh, so that sounds like a pretty, that'll be a pretty emotional day. I would have. I think so. And certainly for us, I mean, not only is it about kind of, um, uh, memorializing Chrissy and Carmen for [00:09:30] the extraordinary amount of work they did for, um, bringing the community together and offering safe harbor, uh, because a lot of their businesses were in, in that kind of Cuba Vivian Street area. But it's also about, um, affirming Um, current contemporary takatapui rainbow communities. Um, this, uh, launch is happening, uh, within the Mental health Awareness Week, which is, um, uh, this year. The theme is about reconnecting. And, um, you know, we are very [00:10:00] aware, um, of, of the amount of, um, uh, you know, we know of a number of. suicides that have recently happened within our communities, um, and we, you know, we just want to, to make sure, or, or add to, um, or, or to connect people, I guess is, is, is what I'm trying to say, is so that when people actually can walk past the seats, they can see the words Irewhiti Takatapui on the seats, and even if they don't [00:10:30] know Carmen or Chrissie, um, hopefully, Erewhiti takatapui will resonate with them. Um, that's a term that we were liaising with gender minorities Aotearoa about in terms of what is the appropriate term. Um, I think, you know, maybe Chrissy and Carmen might have used the word thing, a term like queen. Um, And, uh, you know, that's going back, you know, a few decades. [00:11:00] Nowadays, irwhiti takatapui is very much a very respectful term and an umbrella term. And it means more than just gender. There's a great, uh, uh, uh, comment on the General Minority's Aotearoa website where they talk about Erafeti Takatapui. I'll just read it out here because it's great. It says, To stand in our power is, as Erafeti Takatapui, is to carry the mauri, the life force and connection to all [00:11:30] things. We are not separate or apart from our culture. We are a part of our culture. We always have been and always will be. Oh, that's yeah, that's amazing. And, um, so, and for you, so it was a conscious decision to hold this during Mental Health Awareness Week then? Oh, absolutely, because I think it just ties so nicely together. Um, that I mean, there was a real, um, impetus from the [00:12:00] council to, to want to see these seats in place because, um, it just happened. It was. just completely by chance that they were redeveloping the kind of pedestrian areas around Cuba Street and they're still doing it on a bit lower on Cuba Street. Um, it just happened that our kind of spam request, uh, came in at the same time they were doing that. Um, and it, it was just, just, um, well, I, I, I guess it was meant to happen. Um, I [00:12:30] guess so. And the, the, the. The thing is that it really ties in with the theme, uh, this year for the mental health Awareness week, which is reconnect with the people and places that lift you up. And I think this event is doing both of those things and, and we very much, we, we very much wanted the, um, the other wording on the plaques to be, um, affirmational and um, and so on. Uh, Chrissie's plaque. We've got a wonderful Whakatauke proverb [00:13:00] that was, um, pointed out to us by MP Tamati Coffey, uh, a few months ago. And it's a Whakatauke that really resonates with him in relation to rainbow communities. Um, and the wording is, turn and face the sun and let the shadows fall behind you. And on Carmen's, on Carmen's plaque, uh, we've got an amazing quote from Ariki Brightwell. And it is, it is your [00:13:30] ancestors, your tipuna, that give you the strength to survive today. So both really strong messages, I think. Totally. Yeah. And, um, I hadn't realized about how, um, that how that does all tie in with Mental Health Awareness Week. And, um, that's, that's amazing. And so the event itself is obviously open to anybody to come along. Absolutely. The, the, the first part of the event, which is at, uh, SMS bar is actually a, that's an R 18 [00:14:00] restricted venue. So, um, even when they're not serving alcohol, um, it's still R 18. Uh, so that's where the speeches will be. And, uh, we are audio recording those, so if you can't make it or if, if, if. If, um, you're not 18, um, there'll be a chance to hear those speeches online. Uh, the, uh, and the reason we chose SNMs is because, um, Scotty and Mal have such a connection to Chrissy and Carmen, and you could say that what Scotty and Mal do now is what Chrissy and [00:14:30] Carmen were doing. you know, 10, 20 years ago. So they are the, um, the kind of the community hub and they offer a lot of opportunities for community events to take place. Um, they're real community builders, aren't they? They are. And they're providing, you know, the hospitality, the sense of community, and just that, that glue, which glues the community together in the same way that, that Carmen and Chrissie did. And. That's another reason why I think that having these two seats as a memorial [00:15:00] is such a really lovely idea because, again, it's providing hospitality, it's providing a bit of comfort, uh, in a very busy part of town, um, but now people can just sit and just take a moment and just sort of reflect about what's happening around them, uh, in an area which was absolutely there their part of town, um, back in the day. And we should say that the actual unveiling of the seats is obviously in a public place, so there's no age restrictions, and so that will be at 4. 30 on [00:15:30] the Saturday. So there'll be speeches around 3. 30, um, and then everyone's gonna, um, walk calmly out of, uh, S and Ms. Um, we've got the health and safety plan in place, um, and they're gonna walk calmly across the road using the, uh, pedestrian traffic lights, and then there'll be a lovely blessing. Oh, that's great. Oh, I'm glad to hear the health and safety plan is in place. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Um, that's great. That's such a lovely, I mean, it's obviously, it sounds like a, uh, an amazing event, um, and you've given a really great description [00:16:00] there of, of obviously not just what's happening on the day, but, but really the kind of meaning behind it as well. And I just wondered, um, I mean, lots of our listeners obviously will know Chrissy and Carmen, um, not, not personally, but, you know, they'll know who they are and kind of their significance. But some of our listeners won't. I wondered if you could just say a little bit more about. Chrissie and Carmen and their, and who they are. Why is this so, um, significant for, for Wellington? Yeah, well, Chrissie, uh, was born [00:16:30] in Hastings, uh, moved to Wellington in the late 1950s. Uh, she worked in lots of clubs and cafes, uh, before she established the Evergreen Coffeehouse, and that was in the early 1980s. She actually, um, took over the business there from Carmen, Carmen Ruppe, who had a business on the same premises. Um, it was at 144 Vivian Street. So yeah, it was just, it's just a few meters down from the corner of Vivian and Cuba. Uh, and that evergreen [00:17:00] coffeehouse became a home away from home for so many Takatapui and Rainbow communities, uh, for almost two decades. Um, it was, um, well known, uh, for its toasted sandwiches, um, and, uh, It provided not just a safe space for community members, but it provided employment for community members too, uh, at a time, particularly if you were trans, um, it was, it was difficult if not impossible [00:17:30] to, To get a job somewhere doing anything. So that's, um, yeah, that's Chrissie. There's a wonderful quote, um, from J. Benny, who was writing in GayNZ. com, um, a few years ago now. Uh, but when Chrissie passed away in 2002, um, he was reflecting, Her tangi was something to behold. Thousands of people thronged the marae in Newtown. Busloads from out of town, politicians, queens, the high and the low. From all walks of life they came to pay their [00:18:00] respects to a woman who all her life showed unflinching respect for everyone she came into contact with. Hmm, that's a lovely, yeah. That's pretty powerful, yeah. And as far as Carmen goes, well, Carmen was a little bit earlier than Chrissy. So Carmen came to Wellington in the early 1960s, first of all. Um, uh, Carmen was an entertainer, a businesswoman, um, a sex worker. Um, an activist. An activist, very much so. And actually a [00:18:30] real community icon. And even though she... uh, left Wellington in the early 1980s and moved to Sydney, uh, she's still a Wellington icon, she's still remembered so fondly by, uh, so many Wellingtonians, uh, and she left such a mark on the city for the 12 or so years that she, uh, was living in Wellington in the 70s and early 80s, uh, she had a lot of businesses. She had cafes, clubs, uh, [00:19:00] massage parlours, uh, curio shops, about 12 separate businesses, uh, in different parts of town. Many of them in Cuba Street, uh, there's such an entrepreneurial flair, and also, um, you know, she stood for mayor in the late 1970s against Michael Fowler, she didn't win, but she was very, very many years ahead of her time as far as the things that she was, um, advocating for [00:19:30] as part of her, um, um, attempt at the mayoralty. I mean, she was wanting homosexual law reform a decade or two decades before it actually happened in the 1980s. She was advocating abortion law reform. Again, that only happened in the early 90s. So yeah, she was so forward looking and ahead of her time and remarkable and, uh, strong and, um, unflappable, a real icon. I think for the two of [00:20:00] us who actually never met in person, Carmen or Chrissie, The mark of both those people are in the people that knew them, and when you hear those people talk and when you see what they do now in terms of their actions and their mana and their standing, you think, my goodness, you know, if this is the resonance from what Carmen and Chrissie were, and it still carries on, and you think, This is remarkable. You know, these were [00:20:30] remarkable people and, um, Chrissy and Carmen's whānau and friends are remarkable now. And you think, wow, you know, the, the, the, it just, um, I, I kind of feel Carmen and Chrissy, even though we haven't. Seen, you know, met them in person. You feel them from, from the actions of, of, of people like Chanel Hardy now. Mm-Hmm. and, um, Deanne and, uh, Renee, Renee, uh, a whole, a whole, um, range of people. [00:21:00] And, um, they are still very much alive, I think now in people's and hearts. That's right. And, and, and through. through the likes of those people too, that we've just mentioned, are a real inspiration. Well, they're a real inspiration to us. And I like the way you describe it. So it's not only the words that we hear about people, although there's been some amazing words to describe, you know, both of them, but also just that feeling you just kind of know, um, because you can sense it from other people as well, about their [00:21:30] significance and what they meant to people. and how they will have impacted on so many other people's lives. So, um, well done on your, so, that, and Gareth and Roger for, um, actually pursuing this and, and, and getting it to happen. So you've done it under the, uh, the banner of Pride NZ, which is your... organization that you work for. I wondered if you'd wanted to just say a bit more about PrideNZ, who kind of made this happen. Absolutely. And, um, just to step back a bit. [00:22:00] So literally, it has been a month since we sent that email through to the council. So, uh, this has happened very fast. Um, again, yeah, this surprise does as well, but, you know, it was like one of those things that, you know, if somebody's offering it to you, you know, from, from where we started to where we are now, you know. I think it just shows you, you know, you actually just, sometimes you just need to run with it and go, you know, let's, let's do this and let's make it work. Um, so I think a huge thank you to the, um, the [00:22:30] teams at Wellington City Council who have really gotten behind this and, um, yeah, yes, it was a community initiative. Going to the council, but actually, um, if it hadn't been for the people inside the council, this would never happen. If they weren't receptive to it, yes. Absolutely, yeah. And that is, that is very fast for, um, yeah, kind of council request. They've obviously not questioned it and just gone with it. That's amazing. Yeah, well I, I, I think actually... Um, it [00:23:00] speaks to that, um, that, you know, the civic leaders in Wellington, I think, have been very supportive of Takatapi Rainbow communities for a long time. You know, I think of, um, Justin Lester, I think of, uh, Celia Wade Brown, um, and earlier, you know, people like, um, Mark Blumsky's and, and Fran Wilde, of course, back in the 1990s. And so I think there's, there's this kind of base level of knowledge of, uh, Takatapui Rainbow communities [00:23:30] within the, the, the, you know, the, the, the kind of leadership of, um, the civic leaders. And so you, you're not going to them and, and, and they're going, I have no idea who these people are we're talking about. That they already knew, they knew Carmen, they knew Chrissy, um, and, and were very much, um, supporting that idea. Just, uh, briefly about Pride NZ. So, uh, that was, uh, 2009 that started and we've got around about 900. [00:24:00] Audio items online at the moment. Um, and that's a whole range of, um, you know, event recordings, um, interviews, uh, kind of panel discussions, and, uh, a whole range of interviewers and interviewees. Uh, it could not have happened without, um, kind of the community supporting it and contributing to it. Uh, you know, I, I, I look back, I mean, you know. We're almost just the kind of the conduit, you know, the, the, the platform to, to make it happen. [00:24:30] And if it wasn't for community members saying, yes, I want to be interviewed. Yes, I want to interview. Yes. You're welcome at this event. Um, it just would not be, um, present. And now, um, I think, you know, over 10 years later, uh, people can now go back, you know, 10 years ago and listen to things like, you know, when marriage equality first got into Parliament, so you can hear the speeches that were said on the day, and, and then you realize about how things have changed and how things have, [00:25:00] in a lot of ways, got better over the last, you know, 10, 20 years. Still a long way to go. Uh, but it's a wonderful way of, of being able to kind of reach back into the past and hear what we thought, how we said it. Um, and some of the voices, some of the people that actually are no longer with us, um, you know, I think even on that day when marriage equality went into parliament. Uh, Louisa Wall's, uh, bill. Uh, we had people like Helen Kelly, um, speaking as an ally, uh, to [00:25:30] the Rainbow communities and, uh, she was speaking on the steps of Parliament and, um, you know, it wasn't too many years after that that she, um, sadly passed. So it's great to hear her voice again and to see how passionate she was about equality. Yeah, so I mean, um, I think it's an amazing, uh, I don't know if you call it a library, but collection of audio. Um, I kind of dip in and out of it quite, um, frequently. I'm doing kind of radio and, um, enjoying kind of listening to that kind of audio. Um, and it certainly, [00:26:00] like you say, is kind of, you know, the community have to... be part of that and, um, you know, want to be recorded or do interviews, but also you do manage to get along to a lot of events. I'm always amazed that, um, you know, any kind of, uh, rainbow community events that are going on, um, you're, you're usually there kind of. Recording it in some form, which is, um, uh, pretty, uh, pretty amazing. Oh, well, well look, it also gives us the opportunity of, of being a part of the [00:26:30] community. Mm-Hmm. Um, you know, I think both of Roger and I get so much more out of going to these events, uh, than, than putting into these events. Um, you know, that there is so much to be said for, um, just feeling that you're not alone. Um, and I, you know, I think, you know, reflecting on, say, the walk tours that we also do, um, that, that is a way of us connecting with the community and, and not only passing on history and living history and, and [00:27:00] talking about the past, but also actually connecting with the community. And so even like yesterday, we were doing a tour for It was an amazing tour, actually, for the Ministry for Culture and Heritage. They had, as part of their Pride Week, they invited us around to do a mini walk tour, and we were around kind of lower, um, Lampton Quay area, and we had 25 Ministry of Health, uh, Ministry of culture and heritage staff, um, on the tour was amazing. Um, and we were able to stop for instance, at the old [00:27:30] broadcasting house site on Bowen street and talk about, uh, quilted bananas and, and, and, and, and in its earlier incarnation of, um, the lesbian community radio, and just to point out that how wonderful. Quilted Bananas is not only in terms of its current name and how it now represents a whole range of identities, but the fact that it's been going since about 1984, it's like, This is amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's definitely one of the [00:28:00] things that I find amazing about the show that it has sustained for so long. Um, and that's great to hear that we're on the tour. Absolutely. Um, and so I'm guessing just linking it background then. So this is perfect. The, the, the seats will now be incorporated into, into one of your tours then. Yes, no doubt. Maybe two or three tours. Yeah, I'm sure. Well, actually, the last, we've just started doing a Carmen Rupe, the fabulous Carmen Rupe tour. Um, and, uh, we did [00:28:30] one about a week ago. And we actually stopped at where the seats are going to be and said, well, actually, um, generally we're talking about stuff in the past, but here we are talking about stuff in 26th. And, um, Saturday the 1st. So we're hoping by Saturday the 1st there'll be seats there with the parks, um, and everything will be looking fabulous. Yeah, but people could be looking out for that then, um, you know, those seats being put in, um, maybe a few days [00:29:00] before that. Absolutely, yeah. Well, thank you so much for, um, your time this morning and your amazing insight into, um, into many things around, uh, the queer community in Wellington. But obviously specifically around, um, about Chrissie and Carmen this morning. Um, We will put a, um, advert up or a promotion on Facebook for the event. I know that you've got promotions going on on Facebook um, for the seat unveiling, um, and it'd be great. Hopefully, um, well, I'm sure you will [00:29:30] see lots of people there on, um, the 1st of October to be part of that, to be part of that event with you. So, Kia Ora, thank you for your, for your time and all your insights this morning. Oh, Kia Ora, Kia Ora. Thank you, Karen. Ka kite.

IRN: 3517
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093070
TITLE: Joe Rich - Burnett Foundation Aotearoa
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Joe Rich
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Australia; Bruce Burnett; Bruce Burnett Clinic (Auckland); Burnett Foundation Aotearoa; COVID-19 (coronavirus); COVID-19 lockdown; Ending HIV (campaign); HIV / AIDS; HIV Action plan (2022-2032); HIV education; HIV stigma; HIV testing and prevention; HIV transmission; Joe Rich; Love Your Condom; MPox; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); PrEP (Pre-Exposure Prophylaxis); STI; Undetectable = Untransmittable (U=U, campaign); Victoria (Australia); anxiety; behaviour change marketing; bisexual; combination prevention; community impact; condoms; counselling; gay; government; health challenges; healthcare seeking behaviour; in-person service provision; judgement; msm; public health; public health response; remote service provision; self test; sex; stigma; vaccination; vaccine accessibility
DATE: 24 August 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: Burnett Foundation Aotearoa, 31-35 Hargreaves Street, Ponsonby, Auckland
CONTEXT: In this podcast Joe Rich, Chief Executive of Burnett Foundation Aotearoa, talks about how the organisation has adapted during Covid-19. Joe also talks about Monkeypox, the new HIV Action Plan, and the recent name change from the New Zealand AIDS Foundation to Burnett Foundation Aotearoa.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: December 2023
TEXT: So I'm Joe Rich. I'm the chief executive at Burnett Foundation Aotearoa, formerly New Zealand AIDS Foundation. Um, and I have been involved with the foundation for, I think, coming up 11 years or maybe just past around about 11 years. Um, my background, I started in the behavior change marketing team, uh, working on a program back then that was called Get It On, which, uh, eventually became Love Your Condom and Ending [00:00:30] HIV. Um, And, uh, I did that for, I think, uh, about four or five years. Um, I was fascinated by behavior change marketing and using, uh, marketing skills to, you know, influence behavior for social good. Um, and then I spent the last, uh, five years, uh, hitting up our operations. Um, uh, and then, uh, two, just over two months ago, took over as the chief executive. We'll get on to the chief [00:01:00] executive role shortly, but just reflecting back over the time that you've been there, what has been the most successful campaign that you've run? Do you think? Uh, I would say, uh, back in 2016 when we, um, you know, we, we had changed our strategic approach quite significantly back then to embrace what's now known as combination prevention, so condoms plus Uh, prep plus, uh, testing plus [00:01:30] U equals U, um, uh, or undetectable equals untransmissible. Uh, and so that was a massive amount of work at a strategic level, changing the direction and then sort of, um, turning that into a. Uh, a communication and some key messaging through the ending HIV program. Um, I would say that was the most successful thing, uh, most complicated thing that we did because before then it was very much focused on, on one key message, which was condom use. Um, but you know, the results speak [00:02:00] for themselves with a pretty clear trend now. De decreasing, uh, transmission of HIV. You mentioned that you, uh, have just stepped into the role of chief executive. So, uh, congratulations. Um, you've, you are, you are coming in at a, a particularly challenging time with, uh, you know, COVID-19 still in the community, but also, um, a time with a, a lot of whole new opportunities. Uh, I'm thinking of the new, um, uh, HIV roadmap. What are the [00:02:30] foundation's kind of current top challenges and opportunities? A key challenge at the moment that's very much emerging is monkeypox. Um, you know, not something we necessarily saw coming, uh, but something we deal with, we're dealing with because it's affecting the community. We work with, um, so disproportionately. Um, and so, um, the challenge for us there is Is understanding what's going on, um, figuring out how to [00:03:00] respond and communicating with our communities, um, because there's a lot of anxiety, um, out there around it. And of course. So many similarities in terms of stigma, um, so, you know, it's, it's right up our alley, so to speak, um, uh, but it's, you know, unlike HIV where we've had decades to understand the science behind it and, and, and understand the strategies that work, this is, uh, this is really keeping us on our toes, [00:03:30] um, which is a big challenge, um, uh, in terms of opportunities here, the government's, You know, announced, um, funded HIV action plan that they're currently consulting on, which is a significant opportunity comes after many years of advocacy from us and others in the sector, uh, and in the community to, uh, you know, to have a clear direction on the HIV response. Um, so there's a significant opportunity there to ensure our work is feeding into. [00:04:00] Um, uh, coordinated approach across the sector, um, to achieve a pretty big goal of HIV elimination of HIV transmission and stigma. Um, and I guess related to that, there's opportunity for us as an organization to set a clear long term. Uh, direction for us and what we want to be doing. We'll get back more onto the direction, um, a little bit later, but I just want to pick you up on the monkeypox and you [00:04:30] were talking about how it's, uh, disproportionately affecting communities that the Foundation works with. Why is that? Can you tell me, um, yeah, what, like, what is going on with monkeypox at the moment? Yeah, it's a real A real challenge, because what we're seeing is, um, you know, globally, 99 percent of cases are among men, and 95 percent are among men who have sex with men. And so, uh, the real, the challenge there is that when it's, sometimes when it's being talked [00:05:00] about in a mainstream sense, it can contribute to stigma, um, because of the whole lot of judgments people place on, on who's getting it, and assumptions around why they're getting it. Um, Which is, I suspect the root cause of that is, is this, um, the fact that it is generally being transmitted through sex and, and as a society we still place judgment on that, um, and can't seem to talk frankly about sex and things that are transmitted [00:05:30] through sex, um, which is just, you know, should be pretty matter of fact, um, it's just a virus that's Being opportunistic, uh, and found a very effective way to spread itself around. Um, but, you know, at the same time, we have to, because it's so disproportionately affecting our community, uh, have a right, we have a right to know, and we have, in fact, it would be homophobic to talk about monkey pox without talking about the fact that it's disproportionately affecting, uh, gay and bisexual men. But in sort [00:06:00] of treading that line, um, of stigma becomes quite a challenge. But, you know, and there's also a lot of. uh, discussion around whether or not it meets the technical definition of an STI, um, which is not particularly helpful, uh, it's kind of neither here nor there whether you want to call it an STI, but the fact is it's, it's vastly being transmitted through intimate close contact. between men, uh, generally having sex, uh, and you see that in how it's [00:06:30] presenting with the lesions generally being concentrated in the, in the genital area. Um, so it may in fact eventually meet the definition of an STI, um, but, uh, Yeah, that's, I, I suspect that's what's contributing to the, the stigma is just, is the fact that it seems to be emerging and really emerging and, and being transmitted through sex. Um, the, the flip side to that is it can, it can be transmitted through other close [00:07:00] contact, but it's much less, seems to be much less the case. So you, you know, you can potentially pass on to other people in your household of, you know, skin that has the lesions on it has touched. clothing or the sofa or something and somebody else comes into contact with that and it can be transmitted. So that, that's a challenge as well because you don't, we don't want to have people assuming that every single person that's being diagnosed with monkey pops is a man who has sex with men, [00:07:30] um, but the case is that in the vast majority that is in fact the case, yeah. So, so why currently is it concentrated in, in that particular group of people? Uh, well, it, it seems to be mostly, uh, I mean, there's parallels in HIV there in a way it's, you know, generally speaking, it's an infection that's not easy to get, unlike COVID, you know, um. However, [00:08:00] uh, once it's, it does appear to be easily transmitted through sex and, um, the thing with our community, um, gay and bisexual men is we're much more closely connected than the general population. There's a lot less of us, um, you know, we make up maybe two or three percent of the population and, um, The degrees of, I like to call it, you know, the degrees of separation that, that I think the movie, uh, the six degrees of separation, everyone in the world is connected to everyone else through six [00:08:30] degrees, but when, within the gay community, that's more like two degrees. Um, and because we're smaller, and we're much more closely connected. Everyone kind of knows everyone or knows someone who knows someone. Um, it means when a new infection gets into our community, it spreads around, um, at a much faster pace than it can in the general population. Um, and that's, that's essentially what it is. Um, that's why we're seeing it disproportionately in our community. [00:09:00] So what is the foundation doing as a response to monkeypox in New Zealand? You would have seen our open letter from it. A couple of weeks ago, we asked the government and the health system to, um, you know, to step up the response and, um, we are aware of a, well, we know that they've set up an outbreak response team and they've invited us to be part of that, which is great. So it's been taken seriously in terms of what our [00:09:30] role is in that it's going to be primarily around education and health promotion. Um, particularly until we get a vaccine we. You know, the vaccine is going to be the solution, um, but there is a massive shortage globally. Um, the manufacturer, uh, doesn't have the ability to make it currently. Um, so the whole world is stretched in terms of getting this vaccine. So we're looking at at least a few months wait until we can get the vaccine. [00:10:00] So until that happens, um, we need to be. Educating our communities on what symptoms to look out for, knowing when to get tested, how to access that testing. And then once we're aware of local transmission, um, talking about ways that people can reduce the risk, um, of acquiring or transmitting, uh, monkeypox. Yeah. And what's the, um, the kind of scale of monkeypox in New Zealand at the moment? Yeah, there's been four reported cases, um, [00:10:30] all from returning travelers from overseas. Uh, you know, so far so good, but, you know, the community transmission will come, um, and it's probably going to come before we have the vaccine. So, you know, we need to be, um, communicating actively about that, uh, and what to look out for. You know, we've seen in Australia, um, you know, they got their first. Um, and they're now [00:11:00] seeing community transmission, particularly in the state of Victoria. Um, so look at looking across the ditch. It's um, it is starting to grow. Um they have got some early, uh, early access to some vaccine, but very restricted. I think they got 20, 000 doses and more coming anytime soon. So, um, similar to us, that will be happening in the next couple of Uh, looking at other things as well to, to [00:11:30] control it until, uh, there is enough vaccine for everyone. And in terms of the, uh, kind of broader community response, um, have your teams been picking up kind of, um, or what have your teams been picking up in terms of, uh, when people are coming into the clinics or getting self tests? Do they have questions about monkeypox or anxieties or? Yeah, there is, uh, there is anxiety, um, about monkey [00:12:00] pox and You know, I think there's anxiety in terms of people worried about being impacted. Should I, should I be reducing my number of sexual partners? Um, you know, what's going on and, and in part of that, people not necessarily understanding what the infection is or what the disease is. Um, so lots of. Um, lots of questions around that, you know, lots of concern about getting the vaccine and concern about what people are seeing on some of the, you know, the nasty stigmatizing [00:12:30] messages people see on platforms like Facebook under the news stories and things. So a range of concerns, um, that we're We're hearing from people, um, and that's, you know, partly what fed into our open letter, uh, advocating for a stepped up response was reflecting that concern that we're hearing, uh, from the community. Uh, and so, and a lot of the media that we've been doing is trying, you know, to try and break down and address the stigma and, uh, educate the general public around. Why, why things are happening the way [00:13:00] they are. The other large health issue that's been happening over the last couple of years, of course, is COVID 19, the COVID 19 pandemic. And I'm wondering, how has COVID 19 affected, um, the foundation services that you provide? Oh, COVID 19. Um, yeah, what a journey. Um, it's been challenging. Um, you know, I think I'm, I'm pretty proud of the fact that we've, [00:13:30] although it has felt chaotic at the time, uh, during each of those lockdown periods, managed to pivot quite substantially to provide as much service as we could, um, through remote and online everyone. Um, Uh, mechanisms. So, you know, we managed to keep all of our test HIV and STI testing going through sending out self testing kits, um, you know, move the majority of our counseling, uh, to online, uh, provision, um, and continue to be able to send out things like [00:14:00] condoms, um, through mail order and a lot of our, you know, a lot, a lot of our, um, behavior change. marketing and, um, and social marketing shifted to talking about COVID and how to, uh, how to keep yourself from COVID, um, for our communities. So, yeah, there was a lot, um, a lot of quick changes to adjust through that. I think. What's been quite profound for us has been that it seemed to really accelerate the shift, [00:14:30] um, from in person service provision to remote service provision. So even coming out of lockdowns, um, there is vastly more appetite, uh, for things like counselling, um, to be delivered online, um, you know, which is great. It really increases our reach outside of the cities where we have. in person services, which is Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch, um, because we were able to learn through COVID, uh, actually how easy it is to [00:15:00] provide, um, virtual counselling, uh, we can now provide that as a national scale. Um, and we're also seeing, uh, just a continued trend, um, of increased use of our self testing or home testing services. And that, you know, that might be just because Because it was the only option available to people during those lockdown periods, they tried testing in a different way and realized actually that's really convenient and have kept it going. Um, so yeah, lots of, uh, I guess I [00:15:30] would, I would summarize the COVID 19 journey as, um, a rough time, uh, like for many organizations, just in terms of the amount of work it took to pivot. Um, You know, and just the, the well being in general, you know, um, for our staff and our communities. Um, but, uh, also has highlighted opportunities, um, uh, for us to, to be more accessible. Yeah. Can you just, uh, talk a wee bit [00:16:00] more about, um, the kind of the online offerings versus the, the kind of the physical face to face offerings and, and, um, how that balances now? Yeah. Uh, so. I would, I would say, if you took, if you took an example being our testing, um, before COVID, it was, I would say it was about, uh, two thirds in person, one third, uh, uh, self testing, so then [00:16:30] the kits would mail out to people's homes, and then, um, through COVID, obviously, just during the lockdown periods, it completely flipped, um, because we couldn't see people in person, uh, and then post lockdown, it's, it's almost, um, um, It's now two thirds, uh, home testing, uh, and one third in person, um, which is, you know, fantastic in terms of, uh, being able to reach, uh, people in more diverse regions, um, people who [00:17:00] struggle to access a clinic. Um, you know, one of the challenges is it's not necessarily as comprehensive a service. You don't, um, you know, to do the STI component, you have to pay a little bit extra if you're doing that. Remotely, whereas if you're doing it in the center, it's still free. Uh, and of course you, you know, in the center you do get, um, you know, a peer health worker, um, who's able to answer any questions you have, and generally have a bit of a discussion about sexual health. So, [00:17:30] it's not, it's not as a comprehensive a service, but that said, people still seem to really value the convenience of it, um, more than anything. Do you find that you get more, uh, Positive results via self testing in the home versus somebody coming in into the centre. Uh, yeah, we, well, we did initially when we started providing self testing, um, a few years ago, uh, there was [00:18:00] a higher rate of, um, positives, um, from that than in person. Uh, it seems to have leveled out. It's about the same now and, you know, part of me wonders if that's just the, uh, almost a bit of a catch up, like, um, when you provide a service that's now accessible to people who. We're not able to access services previously, you might be more likely to pick up undiagnosed infections. Whereas once it's been accessible for a few years, [00:18:30] um, it sort of seems to level out. Have your teams kind of noticed any change in kind of, uh, community behavior? I'm thinking in terms of like, um, virtual hookups or, I know in Wellington there was the closure of the sauna throughout the COVID period. Have there been any changes to how communities are behaving sexually, do you know? We don't have the data necessarily, um, yet to indicate how [00:19:00] covid in general, the last couple of years, has changed sexual behavior and health seeking behavior. Um, so all we have to go on is anecdote, , uh, and a and hunches. Um, uh, but uh. You know, certainly during the lockdown periods, we know that, um, there was a lot less, uh, sexual activity. And in fact, we had people, um, almost policing one another on Grindr in terms of, uh, you know, noticing [00:19:30] other people were seeking, uh, hookups, uh, during the lockdown period. Um, I can recall that from 2020 and to some extent, you know, we've seen a continued decrease in HIV diagnoses in the last couple of years. Um, You know, that trend had started back in 2016. So there's a reasonable level of confidence that there is a downwards trend, but it's, there's the potential that, um, the last couple of years have been impacted by people having less [00:20:00] opportunity to have sex, um, either during a lockdown period. Um, because it's pretty much, you know, not in the rules, um, or at least with a, with a casual partner, um, or someone not in the household, um, or even, you know, potentially after a lockdown period, it takes some people, you know, I'm just speaking, you know, people I've spoken to and, um, and friends that some people are still very cautious even, you know, several months after lockdown in terms of, uh, whether they're [00:20:30] willing to go to a sauna type venue or, you know, so. There is the potential it has reduced the number of, um, of hookups. It's also potentially reduced access to testing in general. Um, so, uh, yeah, there's, uh, I think we need another year or two of data to understand, um, exactly how much COVID has contributed to things. We mentioned at the, uh, start of the interview that, uh, [00:21:00] there is a new kind of roadmap for HIV elimination, uh, the transmission of HIV in, uh, in New Zealand, uh, eliminating that by 2032. And I'm aware that, um, the foundation, uh, a few years ago now had a desire to eliminate HIV transmission by 2025. What has been the, um, the kind of issue in terms of trying to stop transmission happening. Why is it so hard? [00:21:30] The goal we set in 2016 was to eliminate transmission by 2025 and we set that with some colleagues in the sector, uh, in lieu of a government strategy or direction, you know, we sort of realized that wasn't going to come anytime soon and decided to set our own goal. Um, and You know, to be fair, I think we've, as a sector, as a community and a sector, we've actually come quite a long way since 2016. Um, infections are definitely [00:22:00] tracking down, uh, they're at about half of what they were at that point. Um, and so I feel like we've We've kind of done all we can do in terms of the advocacy and working together to make changes in terms of access to things like testing, access to tools like PrEP, early access to treatment, promoting the concept of U equals U and reducing HIV stigma. We really are at the [00:22:30] point where we need that leadership and direction from the government and investment, you know, not just in community organizations, but community organizations, absolutely. But also, you know, in other important, um, important areas such as research and HIV, and comprehensive access to HIV. Services and sexual health services. So I think we were ambitious thinking we could do it [00:23:00] without the government support by 2025. Um, they've obviously extended the time frame. Um, we're well, well and truly supportive of the strategy or the action plan that they've, um, they've put together. Uh, some of the. areas that I think we need to go further, um, that we'd really like to see, I guess, weighted in terms of implementing in the action plan, uh, activities around reducing stigma. It's still such a significant [00:23:30] issue for the well being of people living with HIV, uh, and for, you know, and it presents as a significant barrier to people who aren't living with HIV, um, in terms of accessing testing and prevention tools, um, and stigma. Occurs at a wider societal level, uh, but also occurs within the gay community, and it also occurs in health settings. So it's a really complicated area that needs focus, but also we need, um, [00:24:00] more investment in, or focus on access to tools like PrEP, um, We need it delivered in community based settings. We need people who are not in residence, or not eligible for publicly funded healthcare, who are, you know, living in New Zealand and at risk of HIV to be able to access this prevention tool, um, in a publicly funded way. Um, we need, you know, better access to more treatments and HIV services. [00:24:30] Um, so yeah, there's, there's certainly lots, um, lots more to do. Uh, and I think the other thing to say is that the, you know, we're going to have to get a lot more targeted. Uh, in turn, what I mean by that is, you know, over the last five years we've, you know, been working really hard at, at, um, engaging our core community, uh, gay and bisexual men, uh, and new tools like PrEP and U equals U. Um, and we're reasonably effective at getting, [00:25:00] um, You know, people closely connected to that community and, um, well engaged in health, um, using and motivated you to use those tools, but that's kind of the low hanging fruit, so to speak, you know, now we need to, uh, now we need to go wider and we need to be reaching people who we aren't typically engaging with to make sure that they have access to these tools. Um, and are motivated to use them. Um, so yeah, it's, uh, it's, it's going to [00:25:30] require a lot more detailed focus work across, not just, you know, the Burnett Foundation, but across the system and across, um, um, government as well. And I think you could probably say that, um, Through the work of the foundation and setting that 2025 goal, that actually the government has seen that it's actually successful what you've been doing, that the transmission, the HIV positive rates have come down in terms of newly diagnosed. So [00:26:00] do you think that this roadmap would have happened if you hadn't been doing the legwork since 2016? Hmm. That's a good question. Um, I think. I mean, alongside all the work we've been doing, we've been advocating since 2016 or even before then that they need to show leadership and have a national strategy that's funded. Um, so I think that that ongoing advocacy has absolutely played a part. [00:26:30] Um, but yeah, I think it makes it easy for them to get behind because it's a very achievable thing, you know, we're kind of halfway there already. The momentum's going, the sector's motivated, community's motivated. You know, they just need to step in and show some direction and invest in the response. So, yeah, I mean, we're really stoked that they have, um, yeah. Another change that's happened just recently, and I've been referring in this interview to the [00:27:00] foundation, um, but the, the name change, so you've gone from the New Zealand AIDS Foundation to the Burnett Foundation Aotearoa. How's that change been received? It's been received very well, actually, um, you know, which is interesting. I think I've observed different organizations or companies, uh, rename themselves over the years. And you certainly usually get your tire kickers and your naysayers. Um, [00:27:30] um, but in this case, the vast majority of feedback that, um, that we've heard is, you know, about time or, Oh, this is fantastic. Uh, you know, really makes sense. Um, which I think is a. You know, testament to the, the thought and the work that went into the process, um, to get it right, because it's not, uh, it wasn't a decision taken lightly, you know, building on 37 years of history, um, [00:28:00] incredible history that's very personal to our communities and some very heroic people, uh, involved in the beginning. We didn't want to, um, you know, we wanted to respect their, their legacy, um, but also make sure that the name was fit for purpose for today. Um, so I think we balanced that really well. And when you say fit for purpose, so, um, explain that to me, like, how did, how did that name come [00:28:30] about? Um, uh, so there was, I mean, there was two main challenges we were trying to address. Uh, one was that having the word AIDS in the name was, people were telling us it was problematic. Um, clients would sometimes tell us that, uh, you know, they would walk past the clinic several times before they would even have the courage to walk in the door, um, [00:29:00] and, uh, and get tested. You know, and that's, you know, that was a minority of clients, but, you know, how many clients didn't even make it into the door to tell us that that was the challenge, uh, because, you know, AIDS really has nothing to do with the services that we're providing these days. Um, so there was that it was about reducing a barrier, um, a real barrier that existed, um, to access and engagement in our services and programs. Um, and the other one was, [00:29:30] uh. I guess really recognizing that over. our history, uh, our work has evolved. We don't just work on HIV anymore. Our services tend to be around broader HIV and other STIs and even mental health. Um, and so we needed a name that didn't pigeonhole us too much in terms of the types of services and programs that we offer. Uh, and we know that, you know, as things have evolved, [00:30:00] um, over the last 37 years, they will continue to. Um, so yeah, it was, uh, those were the two, um, two key reasons. And when we went out to our stakeholders and community to, um, Ask for feedback and ask for thoughts on in terms of changing the name to address these two key issues, um, the feedback we got, uh, particularly from life members and those involved at the beginning was, yeah, great, you know, we never expected this was going to [00:30:30] be the name forever. Um, but. One thing you have to do is honor the legacy of this organization, um, in the name, um, and so, you know, faced with that challenge, with that weirdo being laid down, um, we really couldn't think of a better way to do it than to name it after Bruce Burnett, one of our co founders, um, you know, a man living with HIV who'd returned from a The Kiwi who had returned from the U. S. Um, after seeing the devastation that [00:31:00] AIDS was having in the U. S. at the time and knowing that New Zealand needed to get in front of it, that no one here was talking about it. Um, and because of that early action that he led and he mobilized and rallied others to support him, um, we wouldn't have had the successful response that we've had to HIV. Uh, so yeah, we're really proud to have named the organization after Bruce Burnett.

IRN: 3515
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/homosexual_law_reform_petition_report_back_8_november_1968_ai_voice.html
ATL REF: 
ATL URL: 
TITLE: Homosexual Law Reform petition - report of the Petitions Committee
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Arnold Nordmeyer (voiced); Gordon Grieve (voiced); John Rae (voiced); Martyn Finlay (voiced); Rob Talbot (voiced)
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: Arnold Nordmeyer; Gordon Grieve; John Rae; Martyn Finlay; Member of Parliament; Parliament buildings; Rob Talbot; ai voice
DATE: 8 November 1968
YEAR: 1968
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: December 2023
TEXT: [00:00:00] The voices in this recording are computer generated. Gordon grieve. I am directed by the petitions committee to present the report of the Committee on the petition of the New Zealand homosexual law reform society praying for an amendment to the Crimes Act 1961. The committee has no recommendation to make I move that the report do lie upon the table. The committee heard evidence from representatives of the society who have given the subject of homosexuality several years of close study, and it is indebted also to others who volunteered information and gave reports on the subject. Especially I draw attention to the information given by Dr. McLachlan of Wellington and Dr. Mackay, superintendent of Porirua hospital. The committee is well aware of the emotional nature of this subject. And after full consideration of all the information available presents this report to the house, we took into consideration reports from other countries. And we also noted that in the police Gazette of 1966, there were recorded 117 convictions for homosexual offences in New Zealand 42 involving offences on boys and 75 involving in decency between males. Of those 75 Only six were convicted of sodomy. Speaking as a member of the committee, with the benefit of all the information I heard at the committee and of what I have read prior to and since then, both for and against the legalising of the homosexual acts by consenting males in private, and also speaking personally, I believe the practice of homosexuality is revolting. We all stand for certain moral principles, and the legalising of homosexuality would indicate to society that we do not really condemn homosexual behaviour. If this were made legal, the public could feel that it was not very immoral. Personally, I was amazed and disappointed at some of the church leaders throughout New Zealand who advocated a change in the law to permit homosexual acts to be practised. The very Bible that they preach from condemns immoral living, and I cannot see any justification for legalising homosexual acts and stating that they are not immoral. An expert witness in favour of legalising homosexuality told the committee that he knew many men who lived in fear of the law as it stands in case they should be unable to resist temptation and so risk imprisonment. Surely this shows that the law as it stands is a deterrent to this illegal, revolting and unnatural behaviour. [00:02:36] Arnold no admire as the member who presented the petition, I should like to say a few words. First, let me thank the committee for the very great care of gave to the subject for the very attentive hearing it gave to the witnesses, and for the very careful way in which it has considered the question. The President of the homosexual law reform society lives in my electorate, and it fell, therefore, to my lot to present the petition. It was not possible for me to hear all the evidence because it was necessary that I should be present at other committees. I did. However, here's some of the evidence. The general plea of the petitioners was that two sections of the Crimes Act dealing with this matter should be repealed. It is my personal view that the petitioners would have been wiser had they asked for more inquiry into this matter by an independent commission. I know the committee gave the petition all the attention it possibly could and considered all the evidence that was available to it. However, this is a very complex question not to be decided on emotional issues alone. It is a question which in my view, deserves an inquiry, possibly by a Royal Commission. Members will be aware that the United Kingdom Government established a very representative commission to go into this question. And after hearing evidence from all quarters, and considering all the implications that commission recommended that homosexual offences should no longer be regarded as crimes in coming to such a conclusion. The Commission did not express any view as to the morality of the actions. It would, I believe, have been the attitude of most, if not all, of the members of the commission, that morally these actions were to be condemned, but the question they faced was whether they should be crimes. That is the issue that sooner or later must be faced in this country, because as a result of the wolfenden Commission's report in Britain, the House of Commons decided, and the House of Lords concurred and it is now law that these actions should no longer be crimes within the meaning of the law. The chairman of the petitions committee has emphasised that many church people and prominent church people support the petitioners and he deplored that fact. I think in fairness to the churches concerned and to the individuals in the churches who expressed their views, it should be made clear that they regard the acts in question as sinful for which the individual is concerned must be answerable. Their point is that may Making these acts of crime might increase rather than diminish this offensive habit. That is the issue the house at some time must take up. My view is that before the House makes a decision to alter the law, and that can come about only as a result either of government action or of a private member's bill, or the facts must be most carefully investigated. I appreciate the care which the petitions committee has given to the matter. But I suggest that that is not enough. We need something more than that. Personally, I would not on the evidence available to me at the present time support the amendment in the law as suggested. I do not say, however, that that would be my attitude. If this matter were more carefully investigated, then it was possible for the petitions committee to investigate it. Rob Talbot, [00:05:48] he was speaking briefly as a member of the petitions committee, I support wholeheartedly the finding of the committee. This is a matter on which I had no difficulty in reaching a personal decision after hearing the very full and very lengthy evidence and wide ranging submissions which were put before us. First, I made my decision on the very strong moral issues that underlie the whole of this problem. It is a problem that concerns 10s of 1000s of people in New Zealand today. I believe there is very wide support for a firm stand to be taken against any lowering of moral standards and codes by condoning in any way these unnatural acts, and I repeat these unnatural acts. I must add that I find it very hard to understand the attitude of many church leaders and church organisations in their desire to change the present law. I am also not convinced that the vast majority of church going people in church going Christians are in favour of a change in the law. The proposals of the petitioners would, I believe, be a very serious step towards lowering the spiritual and moral fibre of our nation. This is of concern to all responsible New Zealand citizens. I believe that the majority of New Zealanders are in favour of adequate deterrence to prevent any further spread of these unnatural actions. A change in the laws proposed by the petitioners, the New Zealand homosexual law reform society would remove a very necessary deterrent to the protection of many of our younger people and our weak willed people who could be influenced still further if this unnatural activity is legalised. Whether imprisonment is the right deterrent is debatable, but I am emphatic that a strong deterrent of some kind must continue on a statute book to deal with the issue mentioned in the prayer of the petition. The petitioners have stated that homosexuals live in fear of being caught because of the present law. And I am very pleased that the chairman of the committee has mentioned this point. It is no doubt correct. But I believe this fear is necessary if this unnatural activities to be controlled in our society. We must remember that fear is something that all people who do not conform with the law and moral codes must live with. I am pleased that this petition has been brought before Parliament because it has given us the opportunity to state quite clearly where we stand. I believe the committee has acted responsibly in this matter in protecting New Zealand citizens and upholding moral standards. [00:08:24] Martin Finley, I am rather disappointed, but hardly surprised at the finding of the committee. In a very few words, I should like to explain both of those statements on my part. First of all, as to the lack of surprise, notwithstanding a reputation for radicalism that we enjoy overseas, I believe we are essentially a conservative people as a whole, and that the winds of social change at least blow more gently here than they do elsewhere. Except perhaps when there are people like the Minister of Justice to find them in family matters and agitate them rather more than they would have been if they were left alone. Generally, it is a habit to follow in the footsteps of the United Kingdom, but at a very considerable distance and several years behind. I am well aware of the widespread opposition in the community to what the petitioners asked for in that prayer. And in that climate of public opinion, it would be hardly credible that her report of the nature of the wolfenden one would be promulgated here, let alone acted upon at the present time. I think I should say, however, that there seems to be little doubt that homosexuality is neither an abstract phenomenon nor a deliberately and perversely chosen way of life. It is a symptom of a sickness less of a body than a for mind. Whether in any given case it is remediable is perhaps debatable, but there is little room for debate that we in this country have insufficient psychiatric talent and experience to diagnose, let alone treat all the cases that require it. One thing I believe to be beyond all argument is that the cure does not lie in a prison sentence. Rather, is that a source of aggregate addition and a focus of contamination. As to my disappointment in the committee's recommendation, this lies in the way it gave a negative finding, like the member for Island Bay, I believe that the committee could have done better by recommending some kind of inquiry, and indeed, that the petitioners themselves would have done better had they asked for that, rather than for the immediate change in the law, which was their precise plea. I, like the member for Island Bay, we'd like to see some kind of independent inquiry instituted, whether under government Aegis, through the universities, or wherever it may be to study the problem and conduct our own kind of wolfenden inquiry. Perhaps this would not reveal many new facts, but it could go a long way towards resolving some of the differences that have manifested themselves before the committee as to the extent of the problem in New Zealand. Here, I would like to say that some of the generalisations that were put before the committee were, in my judgement, not only unfortunate, but completely unscientific. And for people to read into these generalisations, some assumptions as to the quantum of people concerned in any given body of people is quite wrong. If we had such an inquiry, it would enable the public to contemplate the problem calmly and dispassionately and free from the very deep emotion that now attaches to it. May I conclude with the expression of what may be a sobering thought? I think it is generally accepted, at least in medical and scientific circles, if not publicly that every one of us has some latent element of homosexuality and hem, even those who are loudest and most vehement in their protestations of revulsion and opponents of this kind of conduct or this kind of tendency. The very strength and volume of such protestations may be less an expression of innermost thoughts and emotions than some evidence of their suppression. The homosexual law reform society and the distinguished people whose names appear on their letter paper are to be thanked and congratulated for inviting parliament to give consideration to a problem. I think their actual request was at least premature, but the need for inquiry is present. And I believe pressing, and I hope that inquiry will be pressed in the appropriate quarter independently and without being clouded over by a motion and pre judgement. John Ray, [00:12:15] the member for y Tarkari, has said that he was rather disappointed but not surprised by the committee's recommendation. I think the majority of New Zealanders would not be surprised, and they would not be disappointed. But I am sure that those people who added their names to this petition will be very much disappointed. And I could probably add a considerable number to it. One can off but be impressed with the status of the people who were prepared to put their names on the petition. They start from the highest office in the churches and go through the professional groups, the lawyers, professors, schoolmasters, scientists, and others. They were all people of some standing. And they brought a great mass of evidence in the form of written submissions, and we're prepared to answer all questions. I agree with the member for why Tarkari in the member for Island bay that the petitioners would have been wiser had they asked for further inquiry, and I think they should have been prepared to wait until the effect of the English legislation was known. The member for whiter curry said there has been a great deal of generalisation on this subject. I think that was in the mind of every member of the committee test areas of say 1000 persons have been surveyed. But in my view, the results obtained have not been as scientific as they might have been. The results were averaged over the total male population. And on that basis, and on the basis of what had been done in other countries, it was said that there were 40,000 to 50,000 homosexuals in New Zealand. A good deal of that sort of evidence was given to the committee, and anyone who would call it fully documented would not, I think, find the committee prepared to agree with him. There was evidence both for and against the petition, but the majority of those who gave evidence felt that the law should be changed. A number of medical and legal witnesses said they doubted whether that would serve any useful purpose, but I think the lawyer's opinion was that here was a penalty against males and no penalty against females who apparently indulge in acts of a somewhat similar nature. No one claims that the practice would become any less frequent, but I think most claimed that it would not become any more frequent. That is the sort of fact that would have to be discovered. And that is why I think there should be further inquiry. After all, the wolfenden report is a good many years old and Britain got round to changing the law only last year. We do tend to follow Britain some years later, as the member for white artery said, although sometimes we are a bit ahead of Britain, but I am sure every member of the committee felt that there had to be a period of delay before we could rarely make up our minds on this sort of thing. We were told that there are some homosexuals who practice and others who do not practice, no proportion was given to us. But if there are homosexuals who do not practice, then I think it is pretty obvious that the law as it stands is a deterrent in this respect, just as it deters many from doing other criminal acts. We know there is a lot of punishers if we do offend, it is said that these homosexuals are very unhappy people. I suppose that means they are worried. But all of us have lots of worries and have to face up to them. One of the facts that came out in evidence was that both medically and otherwise, we were all seeking information as to whether treatment would be sought. And if it were, whether it would result in cures. We have some evidence that in Britain, since the law was changed more we're seeking treatment, the maximum number given was 300. But there was evidence that fewer was seeking treatment. We had no way of discovering what the position was. But there seems to be general agreement that treatment was not much good. Anyhow. I want the house to know that while this petition sought to legalise homosexual acts between adult consenting males in private, it did not seek to absolve those under 21, they could still be brought before the court and punished, it was said that the purpose was to protect the young and try to cure them of their ways. But I think the law should also try to protect those not so young. However, we were concerned less the change proposed should have any effect on youth. And of course, if an adult male homosexual has association with a person under 21, he would be punishable that would remain the law. However, the important point is that better information should be obtained, and perhaps in the near future, it can be obtained. It is possible that in days to come, the law will be changed. But I am not prepared to support a change at this stage. This is a revolting act in the minds of what we term normal people. And the fact that so many intellectual people have given this matter so much thought and had been prepared to come out publicly with their names and to associate themselves with this petition means that we should give the matter more than the normal attention. However, on the evidence before us, I feel that the petition was premature, and that the public would share this view. I believe the wolfenden report could be a subject for study. And I think that if any change in our law is contemplated, we could well wait for a period before we follow the British act of such recent origin

IRN: 3504
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/gareth_watkins_queer_radio_brisbane.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004676
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093066
TITLE: Gareth Watkins on Queer Radio Brisbane
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Gareth Watkins
INTERVIEWER: John Frame
TAGS: 1990s; 4ZZZFM (Brisbane); Australia; Brisbane; Colin McLean; Georgina Beyer; Jacquie Grant; John Frame; Johnny Croskery; Radio New Zealand National; assimilation; clothing; drag; gay; homosexual law reform; internal stigma; internalised homophobia; isolation; paranoia; queer; queer bashing; radio
DATE: 26 July 1999
YEAR: 1999
LOCATION: Brisbane, Brisbane, Australia
CONTEXT: Gareth Watkins is the founder of PrideNZ. com. Ten years before the website launched in 2009, Gareth was interviewed by John Frame on Queer Radio Brisbane about his rainbow audio productions.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Welcome to Queer Radio, Gareth Watkins. Thank you all the way from Wellington. Have you been very busy? Very busy. I've just been, um actually starting on a new documentary looking at, um, the art of drag and drag queens. Um, just interviewed a chap last night who is 21 has been doing drag for three years. Um, and I've got another interview coming up in a couple of days time with a chap that's been doing drag for 40 years. So, um yeah, [00:00:30] yeah, we actually did talk back at on the subject and I was over the Easter weekend, but soon after that and, yeah, it's there are some concepts out there that need to be corrected in terms of some people really don't know what to make of drag for some other people. It's a way of accepting the gay community. What were the concepts that needed to be corrected? I was thinking that that it's anything less than a professional thing, perhaps [00:01:00] at times to do so like I. I spoke to Trixie Lamont, who's a a performer. She's a transgender drag artist at the Beat Night Club here, and she was saying that it's a perfectly respectable way for young people to actually work. So there are especially young people who are aware that they have a transgender identity. And this can be a way of doing genuine work that's entertaining, rewarding, well accepted with some [00:01:30] other people think that Oh, it's just a matter of people putting on a frock and looking silly and dancing down the street during Mardi Gras. It doesn't have to be like that. No, no. Well, the young chap that I was talking to the other night, um, his mother kind of looked at him a bit strangely when when he told her that, you know, he was doing And then, of course, he told her how much money he was getting from each show, and they kind of put paid to all the concerns. It was like, Yeah, go for it. Um, the same chap, um, has been gay bashed three times, [00:02:00] but in in in straight clothing, if it can be straight clothing. But, uh, he he has never been attacked at all when he's been in drag. But it's been when he's just been walking down the street by himself and in normal clothing, which is, um, another fascinating, um, kind of aspect to the whole thing as well. Often one day, at times I was away from the world a day like the vigil. It was actually this year, and we just packed everything up. I was the host for the event here, [00:02:30] and as I'm cycling away, I could swear that somebody just like muttered faet as I as I cycle past them, and it's hard to tell at times whether you're being paranoid. That's the big thing. That's the big thing that I find with, um, interviewing gay guys as well. Is that how much of that homophobia is actually within themselves? And how much is it coming from outside? I have a feeling that a lot of it is, um [00:03:00] it is inside each of us, Um, that we, uh because we don't see images of ourselves, um, acceptable images of ourselves really in kind of mainstream media because we don't see that every day. Um, we feel isolated and alone. Um, and and I think that breeds a wee bit of paranoia. I guess I know that if I can, you know, when I'm walking down down the street, I I can. I can [00:03:30] feel like I'm standing out even though there's nothing kind of outwardly different about me. But I do find that, um, I get these kind of paranoid feelings that, yes, I am being watched and and talked about, Um, I think sometimes that may be true, But often I think it's maybe my own personality, my own kind of self doing that to myself. Um, and one of the really neat things about doing [00:04:00] these recordings is I've found that other people are just like that as well, so that, you know, it's a bit of a relief for me. It's not just me. That's kind of going a bit kind of around the well. You actually work for national radio in New Zealand, the version of Australia's radio national. And how long have you been working with them for? Well, on and off for about nine years now. Fine. So did you do an apprenticeship? No, no, no. I went straight from [00:04:30] school. I was lucky, uh, one of the last intakes of I was in one of the last intakes of, um of technicians that they took on. Um and then they had a kind of a training. Um uh, basically, it was on the job training. I mean, you you had a bit of kind of theory taught you, but But really, it's this is this is the tape machine. This is the computer. This is what we do. And and here's how you do it. Um and so it it kind of started off doing, um, operating, which is pushing all the buttons [00:05:00] and making sure all the technical technical equipment works Fine. Um, doing that live on air for for like, a a talk, talk back kind of show type thing. Um, Then moving into recording interviews, um, music and, um, speech compilation, uh, documentary making, um and that that kind of gave me a really firm footing and and and the kind of technical aspects of radio and sound recording. And so now what you specialise in is spoken word recording. So you've been [00:05:30] you contacted us through email and, uh, offered us copies of C DS of recordings that you've done of people speaking about things like one recent recording was of two men who are radio personalities talking about how they've dealt with the fact that they are gay that they're involved in radio. But they weren't necessarily happy about, um, speaking out as gay men. Yes. Uh, I, I think One of I have a feeling it's a generational thing. Now, these two guys were, [00:06:00] um well, are, um, in their fifties, that kind of area. Anything around the gay issue, uh, kind of thing is is not really talked about in this country for that age group. I don't think we had law reform here in 85 86. Um, prior to that, it was illegal. Um, so when when these guys were growing up, it just wasn't an option. You you just were not gay. [00:06:30] Um, as in the sense of the word that it is now, um And so when they were growing up and when they were at their first jobs in broadcasting, I mean, both of them have been in broadcasting for 30 or 40 years. Um, it just wasn't mentioned. Um, and so I guess you can really understand why they they they didn't push that, um, even when they had the chance of maybe, um, kind of de stigmatising it, uh, they [00:07:00] just felt well, they just didn't feel the need to to talk about it. Um, one man says, uh, when law reform came through even that it seemed like, Well, now that we've got this, let's not make too much of a fuss about it because people think that we've got a special right rather than just something we should have always had. Uh, I, I don't know what it's like over there in Brisbane, but in in this country, in New Zealand at the moment, Um, there's, I think, quite a strong feeling of [00:07:30] wanting to assimilate with mainstream culture. Um, you find I? I found a lot of, um, gay men just not wanting to be out there. They just want to live happily in the suburbs and do normal what you would say. Heterosexual things like buy a house, um, settle down and have a nice life. Thank you very much. I have a feeling that some [00:08:00] of that kind of, um activism, um, that that was so apparent, especially around law reform. And prior to that, that that kind of activism activist spirit has has gone a wee bit, Um, and I'm not sure if that's good or bad. Uh, but it does seem to be kind of dribbling away somewhere. Hm? Yeah, There's not an increasing number of people necessarily attending political events here at the Pride Festival. It gets marginally bigger [00:08:30] each year, but it's still It's not in proportion to the number of people that there are who must be exclusively homosexual in Brisbane. So there are a lot of people very keen to just sit back and let one or two people especially do lots of work and then think, Oh, well, it's good and we get some benefit. But if those couple of people really didn't take some risks, then there would be no benefits coming through. I have a feeling that maybe that that's always been the case, Um, that here I am [00:09:00] contradicting myself because, um, here II I talked to a number of of guys that, um, younger guys that say, Oh, yes, uh, look at the good old days when everyone was active and and everyone was proactive about, you know, pushing homosexuality forward and saying Yes, it's OK, Um, we're talking about like in the law reform days of, you know, 85 86. Um, but then speaking to guys that are around about 30 or 40 who were [00:09:30] active around that time. They were saying that Well, they told me that that not everyone was like that, that that there are large numbers of gay people that just stayed inside and didn't want to know were quite happy not to, um, you know, kind of be out there, be pushing for it in America, there's an excellent programme called Chasing the Rainbow and, uh, this particular programme about youth in America and how, um, some [00:10:00] youth in, I think Massachusetts. They lobbied their local state to put through a law that would protect students against discrimination on all basis like including, like race, religion, like gender and sexual orientation. And the students themselves, like the youth, had to actually lobby to do this because they were getting no support from the older members of the community, the gay and lesbian community. But they said what worried them the most was that there were lots of gay and lesbian students [00:10:30] who said to them, Look, it's just part of life. You have to accept that you're going to get harassed. That happens at school, you know, you survive it, you get on with your life. But unfortunately, like some people aren't going to survive the harassment. And I think this is why there needs to be some visibility. What's the school system like in Brisbane for that? In that respect, there is no legal protection. There would be a recommendation for people to adopt, um, [00:11:00] like appropriate courses that support students but still, like family plan in Queensland. At the moment, they've got a couple of workshops that they've organised. The second one will be starting shortly, encouraging teachers and principals and such educators to come and get a bigger understanding about what happens as far as discrimination goes, especially homophobia within a school, and how to act to prevent it from being a problem in the first place. But [00:11:30] it's not compulsory, and I think it will take quite some time before many schools decide to pick up on that sort. Of course, as I was saying that the, um, the school that I used to go to where I interviewed the principal just yesterday, he was saying that it's a case of they actually have human relationships, education as a subject. So what he does during religious instruction is he'll mention some supportive things about relationships, but he doesn't mention same sex relationships. And [00:12:00] it's, uh, it's a shame, because you need to be aware more often that there really is quite likely to be students in your class who are gay, and it may take them a few years to realise it. So this is the support has to come before the awareness. I think that's why yeah, the the the visibility, um, in school, but also in in the media, um is so important to not only just see the stereotypical [00:12:30] kind of campy images or the the sitcoms that are so prevalent, you know, from the US with with gay characters on them. But just to see normal gay people talking about normal gay things, Um um and I mean I. I do think that that the gay lifestyle has difficulties associated with it that don't crop up in just straight relationships, [00:13:00] um, or for for straight individuals. And I think those have to be talked about, and they have to be seen in public to educate to validify, I guess. I. I find that one of the main reasons why I'm doing these sound documentaries is that at the end of it, I find I feel a bit more valid [00:13:30] as a person. Um, and I know that. I suppose this is a selfish thing on my part that I am doing stuff to make me feel better. Um, hopefully at the end of the day, it's making other people feel better because they can relate to some of the things that some of the guys are saying. Um, it's all about being able to see yourself or hear yourself back and say, Actually, it's not just me. There are other people like [00:14:00] me, um, feeling the same, feeling the same things, going through the same experiences, Um, and willing to share that, I find that there aren't many places where gay guys can just share their thoughts about things. Um, in a safe way. Uh, I mean, you don't do that in in on on the gay scene. I mean, you're going up to, you know, to a pick up joint to pick someone up. It's not about [00:14:30] kind of having a deep and meaningful conversation. Um, and I don't think there are many places where guys can just talk. Um, so that's one of the neat things about the the sound documentaries is that, um, with radio, uh, you are talking on a 1 to 1 basis even though you're broadcasting tapes 10 20,000 people or, you know, 100,000 people. [00:15:00] You're being very intimate on the other end where it's just one listener, uh, and a voice coming through a speaker. And so I think you can be very intimate, and you can talk about things that that you don't often get a chance to talk about. Who do you think should be represented in these styles of documentation that you're doing? Who do I think should be? Because the temptation might be to go for people who are prominent, for example, I like ordinary [00:15:30] people, and I say ordinary people in quotation marks, because I mean, everyone is completely extraordinary, and they will have different, um, things that they bring to life. And everyone's story is different. Um, I think I have got the most amazing, um, stories out of people that you just you know, that that they don't have, um, the high high profile jobs that you know that [00:16:00] aren't, um maybe the the greatest speakers, um or aren't out there all the time. Um, to me, that's where the most exciting stories lie. It's not about facts and figures, the the documentaries that I'm doing. It's not about facts and figures. It's about personal experiences and trying to get a feeling for for a subject. Um, it's Yeah, it's It's quite an organic way of programme making, I guess, and that [00:16:30] I do the interviews and they're quite prolonged interviews. I mean, that that they would go on for about an hour, Um, each interview. And from that, um, the kind of the the shape of the documentary which turn turns into about a half hour piece, um, kind of shapes from that. Um so it's quite organic. Yeah. You're saying that in, say, for national radio in New Zealand, there's really no [00:17:00] programming that's geared towards gay men and lesbians because they consider like niche programming as a problem, because everyone will want a piece of the pie. But how are gay voices then being represented in mainstream media in New Zealand? In radio uh, there are no weekly, um, programmes at all. Um, there is no news. Uh, sorry, I. I have [00:17:30] to qualify that public radio and for for national radio, where I work. If there are no gay weekly programmes, there are weekly programmes on community access stations. Um, which target? Very small areas. Like there will be an access station in Wellington, one in Auckland, one in Christchurch. Um and they have their own audiences. Um, and they generally have, like, an hour or two a week. Um, which is fantastic. [00:18:00] Uh, so at least there is some gate content going on there. Um, but as a national broadcaster, national radio doesn't do anything like that. Um, there is no news agency, um, in the in the radio area, putting out gay news. Uh, we do have a weekly, um, national gay newspaper that comes out and also a month, a monthly one as well. And in TV, we've [00:18:30] got, um a half hour, um, show called Queer Nation, which is great. Um, that happens every week. Um, although it gets broadcast something like about 11. 30 at night on, um, on a Friday night. So, um, it's it's fantastic that they're making it. It's It's the programme is that you have to actually question why you know why they're putting it on so late. Especially when, um, it's basically general information education content, especially if the the [00:19:00] community television is something like this 31 here where you've got, like, the butchers show on several times during the day time. Unfortunately, television isn't a big thing in New Zealand. We have, um, two state channels and, um, a commercial channel as well. Um, the two state channels are completely driven by money. Um, nothing at all. Like, um, SPS over in Australia. They are basically commercially driven. And and so, if you can't [00:19:30] pull the ratings or if you can't pull the audience, then basically you don't get on well here like there's a a programme presented by drag tomorrow tonight, here and like that actually pulls something like 20% of the viewing audience when it's on air on a Tuesday night and then repeat it on a Saturday. So it shows that that style of programme can perform really well. What kind of content on the programme? Uh, it's more like, um, tele shopping or infomercial. But [00:20:00] it it does have some community support as well. And Tamara is actually, uh, nominating for Lord mayor in the upcoming state elections or sorry, Brisbane City Council elections, which would be quite good because, uh, like, she's a A very, uh, intelligent, together strong person. So I don't know if she'll become Lord Mayor, but she'll give the media a shake. And people have taken this seriously that no one's making fun of her. Yeah, we've [00:20:30] actually got two, transsexual me in New Zealand, one in the, which is just about half an hour drive from Wellington and also one down south. And it is just the most wonderful thing to see them, um, on TV campaigning and just being out there not being out there as a transsexual mayor but as, um, as a very intelligent or as as two very intelligent mayors, um, it [00:21:00] it's just wonderful to see. And and it's a secondary plus that they are transsexual and are achieving achieving great things and and also are looking out for, you know, the, um, gay has been transgender by communities II. I just think it's such a a valuable thing to do. Um, not only for future generations, but for for the interviewer, for for me, um, and for you as well. Um, or [00:21:30] whoever is doing it, um, that you open yourself up to new ideas, new ways of thinking about things I think you become. Well, I hope we become less judgmental once we actually sit down and start talking to people about things, Um, and less dismissive of of of situations. Um, I know that's what's happened with me, I think II, I think I, um, become a lot [00:22:00] more open to all different types of people. And I think that's a great thing. Well, you do have a website that people can access to get samples of the work that you've done and a list of the work you've done as well. I haven't actually looked at the site. This is stated on your CD. So how do people actually find that website? Sure. The, um, website address is HTTP Colon. Backslash backslash WWW dot free speech. All one word [00:22:30] dot org back slash Gareth. Um, that site contains most of the documentaries, Um, in a real audio format, so you can actually hear them in their entirety. Um, live on the internet at any time. Um, you can also download them and listen to them. They're all freely available for, uh, educational use or for broadcast. Uh, basically the sites there to get the sound out to as many people as possible [00:23:00] and to enable people just to maybe hear themselves, I guess. Ok, well, look after yourself. Thanks a lot. Thank you. See you. Bye.

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TITLE: Kym Strathdee profile
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VOICES: Kym Strathdee
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1950s; 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; 2000s; Anti Springbok tour protest (1981); Aotearoa New Zealand; As You Are (Auckland); Auckland; Aura Hotel; Australia; Backstage; Brian Brake; Bruce Burnett; COVID-19 (coronavirus); Carmen Rupe; Castro District; Christianity; Dana DePaul; Fiji; Gay Liberation Front; Georgina Beyer; HIV / AIDS; HIV stigma; Harvey Milk; Hero (Auckland); Hero dance party; Keith Haring; Kym Strathdee; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Mark Zuckerberg; Melbourne; Midsumma Festival (Melbourne); Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; Māori; Māori Community Centre; Mātauranga Māori; Nelson Mandela; Panmure; Patrick Crowe; Pentecostalism; Porirua Mental Hospital; Positive Attitude Inc (Melbourne); Pride parade; Princes Wharf (Auckland); Queen Street (Auckland); Rangitoto Island; Samantha James; San Francisco; Scott Kennedy; Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar; Shirley Bassey; Sister Roma; So Far from Kansas; Sydney; Sydney Mardi Gras; Talk of the Town; The Purple Onion; The Taproom; Tiny Tina; University of Auckland; Victor Motu; Wellington; Wellington Regional Hospital; Wimoka Smith; Yvonne Gardner; acceptance; accessibility; activism; archives; beats; bisexual; breast augmentation; business card; camera; church; clothing; coffee bar; colour; commercialisation; community; dance; dance party; death; disability; disability rights; drag; drugs; essence; facebook. com; fashion; fish; foster homes; gay; hair style; holding hands; hooker; human rights; legacy; loneliness; loss; marching girls; marriage; marriage equality; movement; nightclub; oysters; parade; performance; pervert; photography; photography (film); protest; queer; religion; selfie; sex work; sinner; social media; straight; street photography; tangi; taonga; trans; transexual; transgender; trick; trickness; two-spirit; volunteer; wairua; whakapapa
DATE: 17 June 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: Aura Hotel, 95 Manners Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm Kim and I was born right back in 1950 and had quite because it has a perspective on how I find the world. I lived in a very misplaced family and lived in lots of foster homes that was fostered out to Fiji and different places, which I felt quite wounded about when I became a teenager and an adult and not feeling part of the family proper. However, [00:00:30] um, in later years, I credit that same experience as being experiencing diversity and embracing and finding things about other cultures and other people and other perspectives and other ways of life. So I guess my buoyancy in a lot of things has come from the fact that [00:01:00] turning what used to be wounds into being openings can you describe or set a scene what it was like in the 19 fifties? You you You're talking about Auckland, Is it? Yeah, I'm talking about pre once. Were warriors Auckland State advance when I was there and I mean, most of my foster homes were, um, around that area as well. So it was. It was a large percent percentage Maori. [00:01:30] So a lot of my first concepts on life came from a Maori perspective as opposed to which is great. We had later on being a a white boy who didn't get to university and decide to become aligned to things politically. Um, so I saw things from quite a Maori perspective. I was being a different child. I was very much an observer and probably at times too badly affected by my observations. [00:02:00] Um, but yeah, it was It was I don't think where we grew up that we had obvious racism because we went to those parties we had. We didn't have funerals. Um, and we made jokes about Maori things as Maori, even though I was thinking so I was I was included in that [00:02:30] kind of thing. Also, because I was a, you know, as my grandfather was was a Pentecostal Christian. And I felt safest, um, in that kind of environment for 18 to 22. And although I came away away from the guilt and all that stuff because I couldn't be doing what I'm doing now if I saw a Pentecostal Christian, but I learned about a lot about community and a lot about responsibility [00:03:00] and in some ways that has shaped and sometimes formed criticisms of how we are when we call ourselves a gay community and we make a lot of people feel rejected. And so a lot of this comes out of my work because I work with in disability now, uh, with problem behaviours, and I am again get the chance I could do with Children. I get to experience their wonderment through their eyes. [00:03:30] Um, being with disability people, especially because they're starting to come out in Queer Society now and we're still walking past them wanting to tap their wheelchairs, and but we would never invite them home. I'm gonna take you right back to the 19 fifties and you've mentioned words like queer and gay. And I wonder, were you aware of, um, what I would [00:04:00] say would be Rainbow Communities Rainbow people Now, were you aware in the 19 fifties and of rainbow peop Um, not as such. I'd had four instances of adults doing inappropriate things, um, with me, which didn't actually damage me. I was fascinated at the time. It just scares people. It didn't make me gay. It didn't make me queer, didn't make me anything, just brought my attention to fascination and stuff like that. But, [00:04:30] um, again, in that redneck, hardcore street that I lived in, there was Victor Mo, who was a Maori guy that lived around the corner. Respect of it. And Victor had walked down those streets, his head held high and his hair longer than pre Beatles down to his shoulder, teased back, combed. I knew it because the girls next door used to do that to their [00:05:00] hair, and I could tell that's what he did, because I was an observer of colour and movement creation. I saw the girls doing it, but Victor did to, and Victor wore a boy's shirt tight, tight jeans, and he had it tied around, just underwear our breasts would be. And he was wearing a bra and he tied it and he minced down that street and he got people looking at him out the windows. My mother used to say, Oh, that boy, [00:05:30] look at him. He's responsible for his mother's early death, and all I saw in my start world was colour movement and a head held high. I didn't know what that was. I didn't know it. Mum called it queer, but queer was a different word then. Queer wasn't necessarily a negative statement. Yes, [00:06:00] it had ne negative in, like whatever that word is. But it meant a little odd. A little like you're not feeling well. You're feeling a little queer. It didn't necessarily have that sting and that fist that it came to be later on, that we had to reclaim. And so I heard that word. Um, I saw that, and I knew that I should not become Victor [00:06:30] because that was not a an that was not an acceptable way to be. And with my church life, of course, that kind of people were having those kind of demons cast out and all that sort of bullshit. Um, so, yeah, I wasn't aware of that when I when I was 20 I I was, uh, a youth evangelist kind of person that would go out and run the ws of Auckland at night time and invite people back to the Teen [00:07:00] Challenge coffee bar. And I was with my partner and we'd get all prayed up and I would go with our little stupid little tracks and the Lord will in these people. And we were on Princess Wharf 1969 1970. And our aim was to get those people to come to not a church. But we got a coffee bar with people who played guitars and you know, we so contemporary. And we walked [00:07:30] along that wharf one night and three guys came walking towards us and they walked like Victor Moto only worse, because they were three and they were bouncing off each other. The guy's names David and was debia Richard, who was Rebecca, and I don't want the other one's name, but they were shrieking, and I had never seen anything like that. They were being so camp. A policeman approached them, and I heard [00:08:00] one of them say to the policeman, Does your wife know that you're out chasing young boys around the street? And I'm like and I find out I I was getting entertained by the difference. I wasn't getting a hard on trying to have sex with those people. I wasn't thinking of that just their social impact, and they were just going, Oh, making these gay noises and and doing these and ballets and these were these were [00:08:30] those founding people in Auckland that didn't set the style, but they broke the mould and life like it has so many times faced me with that, and I thought we should invite them. We should invite those go back. I think I was a bit entertained by them again. It wasn't a Penis talking. I just, you know, the Lord will win. I turned around to my co Christian, and I could tell he was drunk. Let's, you know, let's get out of here and [00:09:00] I'm going. No, those two boys, it funny because I wasn't thinking of telling the story, and it's a really good story. I invited him to our coffee bar to get off the street on the boards. I didn't realise that Princess walk along that promenade between that and the ferry building. I know now it was a beach. I didn't know that. Then. That's where people went to meet somebody. There were a couple of talk of the town was a drag club by Turner, Tina Turner, tiny Tina, who's [00:09:30] also known as Patrick Pat Crow, who also who ran the first kind of drag nightclub that I knew of in Auckland. Anyway, we got these boys came almost coming to the coffee bar, and we think, Oh, good. You know, we're like fish waiting for them to jump in the net. And David Devina, who introduced himself to and I I didn't even know that was a kind of comment, [00:10:00] I I know, but Richard and Rebecca, they started giving me a few other ideas here, but, um, I'm pretty sure it was David Devina that said to me. So you think your God can change our life? Yeah. Yeah, you can. You know, I was all ginned up in that and he said, That's pretty arrogant and I never want to be arrogant. I was a Christian. What is he talking about? [00:10:30] He said, you know nothing about my life. And he challenged me. The other guy I knew wasn't seeing them. Just as soon as he was seeing them as perverts III. I realised the difference, and I had an opening in my head that this was going later on embrace. It still wasn't thinking through my Penis. And this guy said to me, I'll make you a deal. I'll come to your coffee [00:11:00] bar with you if you come to my club, my club tomorrow night, and I went. That sounds fair. It didn't sound fair. Any of the Christians that I had, They came to the coffee bar, and the next day I kept my word and my church word got around. I got run from my pastor. My church had a prayer meeting for the entire time I was at that nightclub. They stayed up till one o'clock and usually do that [00:11:30] praying for me. And I just went, Well, what's the fuss about? If you believe in God, you know, God's gonna win. And I went to this first talk of the town nightclub that was on bottom of town in Auckland, and I went up there and I saw these people. I didn't know what it was at the time, but they were miming and they were wearing costumes made of sheets. And it was real down to earth stuff, [00:12:00] and they were miming, and I just went, Oh, this is just like church where we're all speaking in James and going off, these people have got an outlet. Those weren't the words that I thought. Then this is the interpretation I have now. So that was my thank you. So eventually I That was the very thing that I that got me out of church eventually was that people [00:12:30] regarded people as Christians or sinners. But these people were perverts, and I just went You can't make that kind of distinction. And I can't find your flag anymore. And, you know, Then I'd meet what weren't called that. Then Trans people and I was going. What happens? I'd say to church people, What are you gonna do when I bring somebody who's who's got a sex change to church? You can cast the demons out and [00:13:00] like to I didn't necessarily ask those questions verbally, but I asked those questions always in my head. That's how I found life in the fifties when, uh, you left the church. Did you also leave religion? Or was it just that church? Um no. I. I left church. I left, um, the congregation because they were all in seeing me as being, and I moved [00:13:30] to Wellington and the thing kept chasing me and turning up. Um, so when I left church, I really missed community. I couldn't just do it at the Gay Boys Club between da da da da da, because it it was my whole life. Um, so I knew I had to get out of Auckland. So I moved down to Wellington. I'd been working at Auckland Hospital [00:14:00] as a special duty orderly, and I moved down here as a transfer to work at the hospital in Newtown, in the theatre block. And some crazy things happened where I was living and I just went, No, I don't want to do I've got to go and do something that means something and was sort of like the next Christian loophole. And so I went and trained in psychiatry at, um, hospital and that just I you know, it was that older [00:14:30] brother thing in me that's got to keep giving back, and that might sound noble. It gets you in a lot more shit than what you realise. It's nothing to claim as being wonderful. I'm I'm glad it's benefited some of the people that I've been around, but you know you can't wear like a medal on you because it's got more of the pin that sticks into you and has got a medal that shines out. So that club in Auckland was it. So it's called top town. No talk of the town, the town, which [00:15:00] is It was so it was so gay, draggy at the time, because Shirley Bassey had a hit album at the time called Live at the Talk of the Town. And so talk of the town was an English club where lots of gay revered artists perform like bass. So, you know, this was Auckland's talk of the town. It cost you $5 to get in. I maybe not $5. 02 dollars And you got a cup of coffee and everyone [00:15:30] had something in their bag. I wasn't drinking at that stage, but, you know, I probably only went till about one o'clock in the morning, but that was like it was Bohemia. It wasn't as bohemia as I found Wellington, but it definitely wasn't going to church on Sunday. So this is late sixties. Were you photographing at the talk of the town? No, Um, I was, Although I was still hanging, I was a bit of a moth. [00:16:00] I wasn't ready to be a butterfly. And I ha, I know I'd go with these guys so that because that's the only other outlet that I knew and I loved all that colour and movement. I was always colour and movement. My sister used to be a marching girl, my half sister. And so every Sunday we were dragged along to where Mum and Dad could drink in a tent and they call it marching and my sister and so pageantry, colour and movement had always appealed to [00:16:30] me. But I also had different, so I'd never I don't think many people carried their cameras socially in those days. What used to happen was when you went to a nightclub. There was usually a roving reporter who took photographs of you and gave you a ticket. And you went and saw the proof sheets in some thing and you ordered those photos. That's how it was. I wish I had kept all those photos. But later on I went back to Christian living and decided, and I did take [00:17:00] a lot of photographs not at talk of the town, but that period of time. When I went back to church, I decided that was, um, wasn't a really good road to keep to keep and thing, and I burnt all the photos from it, which was so yeah, don't burn your photos don't go removing people's Facebook files after they're dead because their legacy and their conversations and more important, and the thing not the who [00:17:30] they were, is represented. I I'm not really good on the computer, but I've got a strong respect for our Maria in the sky. I've learned about so many people, not just people passing, but the wealth that we have back here in the homeland from the Facebook. And I know it's got and everyone's got much better systems and it's got, you know, it's got its faults and its flaws and all these ongoing restrictions. [00:18:00] It's one of the best archives we have of our times of individual lives. And so, you know, I've heard quite a few people recently telling me they're about to close down someone's thing and I just go, Yeah, I'm sorry. It's just like burning a really good book. Um, I've got off the what? Your question was, how did you come to photography? How how did you How did you get your first camera? Ok, so [00:18:30] this under the quick cloud of poor pita for me, Linda Ronstadt, Go. Um I my mother and her husband and their family never really got me, but I you know, I didn't fit the mould. Um, and they would buy things like one year. They gave me a great big guitar with one free lesson with [00:19:00] a Pacific Island man and Glen in and I went to play to Spanish Harlem and never went back that I was not a musician. They didn't give it to a musician. They just did not know what to give me, or they gave me one of those pool sets that sit on the top of the table. It's only about a yard wide. You get the holes to go. I just That was my stepfather's game, not mine. And one year, [00:19:30] totally accidentally, they gave me a grey plastic camera and I. I only had one film, and that's all I had. And I have three photos from that, that first shoot of my brothers or my half brothers and half sisters. Um, I didn't in those days, of course, people didn't keep their photographs or they had them in stuck, and I had a variety of albums over the years. You know, the ones you put the plastic sheet on. It removes [00:20:00] all the colour out of the photographs and so many different types. Um and but I never learned photography again, academically different and not, you know, had to leave school really early to support my family and stuff. Yeah, I was so insecure as a person that building up any academic knowledge, including learning a camera which I still haven't done. People look at me and go Oh, what kind of equipment is that? And I have to show them the name [00:20:30] because I Yes, I know it's a canon. I said, Do you know you can do such and such? And I've got no fucking idea I haven't. And and that has held me back. That's fed my dividends because I feel at times that I've a fake that I can't call myself a photographer as such. So people come up still to me now, and I'm still not trying to be humble. This is just how it is and they ask me. So you're a photographer? I'm [00:21:00] actually holding a camera here. The answer is very obvious. But then I go straight to you. I don't know about that, but I take lots of photographs and so that photographer has always meant you've been I've been in a dark room, and that's I saw how the process is then. No, it's too lazy to learn it. And not only that, it was dark and dank and smelling of chemicals and not unlike a gay. So it really, um and I [00:21:30] That wasn't my world. That was darkness. And it wasn't colour and light and movement, so yeah. No, I didn't. I didn't get the technical. And I went up from Instamatic camera instrument. So, you know, I'd go to a lot of where I worked in a factory and a lot of the Samoan boys would invite me to their weddings, And I'd take my camera and, you know, I could give them the photos free. And and I'd hate to see what those photos look like now. I mean, my composition probably is a lot better, but give [00:22:00] me, um give me the balance of light and focus. And I'm not your man. Um and you know, So I you know, I've graduated. I I've lost, broken, mistreated. So many cameras and people look at me like you realise you don't know and so that that's that's just how they are. You know, they're quite disposable, but I don't want I. I don't want the prestige of being a photographer [00:22:30] or having that equipment because a lot of people come to me now and this is just across the board and they go, What kind of camera is that? They say, Oh, yeah, Well, I'm saving up. And when I can get a I'm gonna get a A camera just like that, and I'm gonna start taking really good photos. And I went, Do you have Do you have a I call a mobile. Do you have a mobile? And I Yeah, I said, don't wait until you get the camera. If you're seeing photographs now, take the photograph. [00:23:00] Anything you look at and this is only a recent realisation, maybe about nine months ago, that because somebody said so what makes you take a photograph? And I went Hm. It's probably anything I look at for more than two seconds. Not that I'll get all of those, but I'm impacted by things. And if I've got my camera, I'll probably take a photograph. Not because it'll make a spectacular photo, because indulgently, that's how I see things Can you recall? [00:23:30] What were the first images you took? What did you take? My, um my stepsisters and my two stepbrothers. Um and part of that was it's quite weird. I've just gone all psychological on myself. Um, no, that was quite neat To capture them without me in an effort to belong to them at at then, [00:24:00] you know, that's I was desperately wanting to become part of that and sanctum. And, you know, wherever I've gone and I'll go to gay bars still and just go, I haven't got the password, you know, I've got the right hair and it's on a for me. It's just like me. Maybe you don't want the pass routes anyway. And you know that keeps you moving because I don't wanna be. I don't wanna be, [00:24:30] uh, a gay person or a straight person or a top or a bottom, because they're just the next cage and I find incredible life and wonderment in the eyes of little kids and really old people. And a lot of my photo archives are just about that and just old people and homeless people. And because there's just all these stories and we're privileged to go through this life just once. [00:25:00] Yeah, I'm really glad that I've got this archive of the growth of a community that wasn't allowed to be in the past and now can marry who they want to and be celebrated at the thing. And I love now going to same sex weddings. And I also like going to straight weddings and anyone who meets each other, no matter what the gender, not our preferred gender and celebrating what they have. [00:25:30] So your photographic archive give me a sense of, um, the span. Like what? What years does it span and kind of what's included in it. OK, so we'll talk about, um we're talking about the the queer side of it, and I use queer as a broad word than gay. Um, it doesn't always go with everybody else, but, you know, that's You didn't have a Mohawk and Pans, um, [00:26:00] on the queer side of things, it spans some of those early drag queens. A lot of whom are now are angels who were entertaining us back there. Pat Crow. Tiny Tina, Samantha James. Um, I won't give you her male name because she might have seen something through the ceiling at me, um, so that they [00:26:30] were in the 70 just 72 period, I guess, And then all through. So I was going to places like backstage in Auckland. I was also part of a group called As you Are who were tired of not having going and having drinks with your friends at somewhere like chat room and then it closing and the gay people going to the gay club and the straight people are only going to the straight club. And so, as you are, was a group of people in Auckland [00:27:00] who went like, Let's just have our own club And they had their own parties, their own, and they were male and female, and they didn't lose any of the gay promiscuity at all. Everyone slept with everybody and they did a little reviews, and we had people like a male Samoan stripper, and we had tiny Tina and we had a variety of different people. So that that was, uh, as [00:27:30] you are was the only, um, thing that you had. So I started. Then I started recording their history, their meetings, their etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. At the same time, my cousin from Papakura, who was a hairdresser who was so misplaced out there, and he would come to our place and dress up. And Donna de Paul was born, and Dana used [00:28:00] to come in from Papakura and dress at our house and because we had no crimes, I have a problem with gay community that I'm gonna mention this because it's important there was a gay liberation dance at the university Raise funds for, you know, gay lib protests. And we my wife, my second wife at this stage and I had [00:28:30] we didn't have any division about gay people. And, you know, it wasn't about me living two lives there, and it was just like, No, we were you know, we were We were anti Springboks or, you know, we were those freedom for everybody. People anchors sometimes. And we had Diana living with us, and there was a gay liberation dance, and it was a human right. That's why we went there. And we got there and it was $5 [00:29:00] and I still see that trestle table in the hallway of Auckland University and there was a gay man sitting on a at the trestle table and he looked up to us and I saw his eyes. Because this is the thing. When you're a photographer, you're already an observer. The camera just gets your observations, correct or not Correct. But they are your observations. And I knew that he was looking at it. I could see where he was looking. And he was. I wasn't so arrogant to think he was looking at my big crotch, [00:29:30] but, you know, he was looking at me holding hands and he turned around and went, Oh, do you know what this is? And that was his tone. And I went, Yeah, and he looked at us. He went it's gay liberation dance. And I went, Yeah, and handed them the $5 towards the cause. And he turned around and he said, If you're holding hands with a fish, you're straight and you shouldn't be here. [00:30:00] And I was I learned this from that many years later that our acceptability, no matter who we are, is defined, controlled absolutely everything by our ability to accept, change the words around. If you're not able to accept other people and and we've got to be careful with that because we did have to fight, and we did have all those divisions. [00:30:30] But we got to not be the divisions ourselves. And so when he said that and I looked at that thing and I went, how would you know? Anyway, how do you talk with a reference? A negative reference to a woman's body parts, which you haven't. OK, you don't even have the urge. But you wouldn't even take it on because it it it it It's something you don't know. Um and so I just It's like race, reverse, [00:31:00] racism or thing. I just I didn't want him to just accept that I was bisexual or, you know, being straight I wasn't pretending to be anything at the time. I was just being, um and that we just got to be careful that we aren't the things that we despise in other people just got right off your question there. But there you go. You mentioned just before about, um, it's the photographer. It's the [00:31:30] observations, and the camera just captures those observations. Do you feel as a photographer when you're at events that the camera is kind of removing you from that event with you? Because you are just being the observer. Uh, yeah, because my camera could go places that I can't go. I well, I I was at a dear friend, uh, wedding a month ago in and I got [00:32:00] there and, you know, I'm still getting used to my eyesight in the public saying, and I just looked around and I went I should, you know, I've got my camera here, want to give them some photos of the thing. And I just looked around the crowd and I went, I can't do this. I I'm just polarised. Just I think I'll just have a drink and sit here and all of a sudden I found myself following my camera around the room, doing things that I wouldn't even [00:32:30] do going up to people going. That's not your first date, is it? And sounding like the absolute confident person. So my camera having that camera didn't give me a licence to behave in a certain way. But it filled in for something that I can't quite often bridge myself. And I'll find myself going and doing it because we only come together like this once, [00:33:00] and I don't process that, but I have that in my thoughts all the time as we now that I'm older and we've lost so many people and that we should not be wallowing in our loss about those people that we've lost. But we should value this today that we've got with each other. And we shouldn't make shit on other people because life's life's really, really precious [00:33:30] and and, you know, I mean, if you look through the archive that I've got spanning about all those years, and I get people that come on to my site on my site on Facebook, who go Oh, I just love all your photographs. It's just a a shame. There's so many. We've lost so many. And yeah, we have. We must not let our loss become more important than what those people brought to our lives or what they brought to our community. And some of them were assholes. [00:34:00] Yeah, sure, they're all, you know, black and white and all those kind of people. So yeah, I the camera does take it. The camera does. I mean, I've had to learn how to handle myself in front of, um in a gay club, sometimes because people walk up to me. And you know, this is back in the days where you had 36 photos on the family. Go take our photo. [00:34:30] And I didn't know how to say no because I was there to photograph someone's show or something. And all I had was whatever film I was paying for and the developing thereof. And these people wanted to be instantly fabulous just for the photograph. They were never going to see the photograph. I had so many photographs on that thing of people that I just couldn't say no to. And it took me a long time to go. Oh, yeah, I'm actually here to do that. And then I'd get attitude [00:35:00] through, not helping build someone's temporary plinth for the right now. I took a photograph of my boyfriend and it was like somebody they just met two minutes ago and I was part of that. And, um so, yeah, having a having a camera can be a mixed thing because people go. I hate the term official photographer or even photographer. I just want to be able to slink [00:35:30] around and get life out of it is because as soon as people know they're being photographed, they change. And I love some of those product photos. But like the other side, I'm gonna give another example. And I will be unpopular in my angel cousin saying I am never gonna throw the pictures of my cousin out of drag the before drag mistakes [00:36:00] during drag, et cetera, et cetera. Because I understand with drag that we are transporting to something that's gonna that we can be seen as rather than something that didn't fit us. But I see the value of that journey in all those photos. No, I wouldn't deliberately put pictures up. And you know, people have said to me, Oh, you don't put those fucking torture pictures up on me and I'd like to think I never would. But privately, [00:36:30] there's a wealth in that journey and and we're not just the product. And we're not just, you know, that transfers to us not just walking down the street in a pride parade going. Look at me. Look at me. Look at me. No, we don't have to be turning ANZAC day where we're putting wreaths down to people that have died. But somebody paved those streets that we dance on and maybe it's my age and and seeing Victor [00:37:00] Motor and how it was for him walking down the street. And I understand that our, uh that's not part of our present cultures experience, and we can't expect that they there were no good old days. There were our days, and these are their days and their days don't cancel out our days. You know, we just got to embrace what life gives us. I think it's really interesting, um, talking about tortuous [00:37:30] photos because I I also think possibly that, um, photographs and and also audio recordings and other other types of media. They resonate differently as they age. So the immediate reaction to a photograph saying, Oh, that's tortuous may not be the reaction. 10 years, 20 years, 30 years down the track, it'll become vintage. It'll be a any any photographs. Look, I look [00:38:00] at photographs. I was talking before about how people used to take your photographs in nightclubs and give you a ticket that worked somewhere else in Queen Street in Auckland. I remember as a little kid, and I've still got pictures of my grandparents. When you were walking down the street, a photographer we used to take that is the most Inc I would love to see. The archives of the Photographers wrote that, and they would give you a card. And if you wanted to, you'd go up and see the proof sheet and you get it and they'd post it to you two weeks later, [00:38:30] and it would have a a wrinkly edge on it. It's a rated edge, and it would be in black and white or or a toing. And they are the photos of the fashion of that era, and we've got them in our we've got one or two of them in our old photograph album somewhere. And there's a whole archive. Those people. Yes, they were trying to make a buck and get through life, but they they fished the streams and and that's [00:39:00] how life was on Auckland streets. You know, not not neglect because they didn't stop and get your photograph. They photographed you walking along and getting across and and the the some of the clothes you look at and go. Oh, that's fabulous. You know what people are gonna say about the same thing about that? And they're gonna point it all up and go. Can you believe people wore that? Yeah, yeah, because we're both hilarious. And we're timeless because somewhere deeper down [00:39:30] the line, someone is gonna go to the pictures, even my album and going because I've had people come to me and going. Ah. Remember that party? Yeah. And I went Yeah. Yeah. And I remember I wore that. Da da da da And I'm going, You know, we change our memories change as we change and I go, I don't ever go. Hm? No, you didn't, but I go, Yeah, I've got photos of that knocked on the road and they'll look at me and going Oh, my God. Why did I wear those shoes and go? Because we always [00:40:00] we all do. You know, we we've got this memory of either cringe or glory. Maybe not those extremes about something that's historically recorded us. And that has changed. And and we shouldn't. That's how we were. And that's how we fantastically were. And that brought us to here. So describe for me you're you're mentioning that you kind of like to slink, uh, when you when you're at events, describe [00:40:30] for me how you go about um uh, going into an event and And how What? What? What does your eye get drawn to? And then what do you photograph, um, again, every midsummer carnival. Say that in Melbourne. I wonder why the hell I'm going and who the hell I think, Uh, I go through all that different factor, and then I get there and I'll usually [00:41:00] start, But I don't have a plan. Definitely don't have a plan. I'll usually photograph the people who are volunteering. Yeah, the Christians, if you like the the people who support us. And there's something about volunteers that we too easily, especially in gay disposable society [00:41:30] that we just take for granted. We just expect we bark at them. You know, we don't all do that. A lot of us are really appreciate it, But they we've met, and so I usually start there, and then someone will go pass and I'll be outrageously Look at me. Look at me. Look at me. And I was like, Let me get that magic on film, because I want all that as well. Um, and [00:42:00] the old people and the little kids and yeah, you're on stage and doing your stuff and you think you're so hot and you're just given something to go for the first time. You know, like three M three pride marches and Melbourne's not gonna like this. Melbourne has the most boring pride march in the fucking world, and they walk down Saint Kilda and not allowed to have floats. [00:42:30] No floats. If they want that, they can go to Sydney not because of the power lines, not because of the tram lines, just because the pride people say no floats. I so wanted to wear water wings with all my friends this t-shirt and said, I'll float if I fucking want to, um, down in the street. Um, but that's how it is. And I just went, I went, Why do you want to go to the right over the other side of town? It is boring. And I went, Oh, I [00:43:00] know, I just This is what I do And I went there and I saw a 14 year old I think, 14 or 15 or might have been a little bit older, and I didn't think I thought he just had a different look. I know he was putting his toggle on I went, he smiled at me and I went, Hey, so what are you here for? Wasn't a contrived he went, Oh, [00:43:30] I'm waiting for the rest of my troop to arrive because I'm gay. And there's another guy in my scout troop that are gay. And so, uh, all the other guys in my scout troop, um, said they'd come and walk with us in the parade, and it was his first ever pride march and his friends were supporting him. [00:44:00] See, Pride is important for other reasons. And see that young man walked down the street with his friends and he couldn't have done that 10 years ago. The scouts would have it would have thrown a thing. And and so the circle is getting wider and wider and wider. And if we if we just encourage extensions [00:44:30] and not always look at the person in the fabulous drag shoes, just think, Yeah, they Yeah, fantastic. They're gonna be there on Friday and Saturday at 1 p. m. two PM and 3 p. m. But, um, I just think not not not going up to that thing going good on you and stuff like that. But I photographed that boy with his mates because that that particular pride and I got all the fancies drag [00:45:00] queens and the leather man on the bellies on the ground and et cetera, et cetera. But I went home and I saw that photograph I don't want Yeah, you can. I don't think ever underestimate the power and and just the sheer intensity of those first You know, that that first pride event or the or the first time you were in with a whole lot of other queer people? What? When did when [00:45:30] did you get that feeling? Um, OK, when I first lived in San Francisco, I didn't. I went to the Castro only once because that wasn't my No, I wasn't any, but I didn't even know what it was. But I went. I only went there because they had a gospel gospel music. So at the theatre. So no, it wasn't that, um my sense of solidarity really came in the form of [00:46:00] no September 81 Falls Park, Mount Albert and we had the squad and we had all those different people marching on the same flag and something just one pro problems and I looked behind a flat a tree and I got a photograph. And Bruce Burnett and his flatmate, Kevin and Bruce Burnett from the AIDS Foundation [00:46:30] basically founded that I got such a buzz last for you. And I went, Yeah, dude, that's such a thrill Because, yeah, he was with gays for freedom, marching in another a whole lot of other people that were fighting for human rights and taking their place in that and being part of [00:47:00] human human rights. And so I think that that's that. Did it for me. But then again, seeing the floats come together for hero 91 94 the first hero and seeing the streets claimed and applauded [00:47:30] Victor Motu wasn't in that parade, But I saw I saw Victor go up the street on a truck, getting him the pause, getting the the you know what I mean? Like so, Hero hero 91. I mean, I been been at the previous first hero party, was just held in the, um thing, and that was great. I walked around, um, the railway station for the hero parade and substances [00:48:00] and substances is an operative word of that particular generation. You know, we're all sort of flying guys. But I just went around and told anyone that I liked that I always I forgot to tell people, you know, you might have sleep with somebody and they become disposable or you and you saw them again and they they still here. But he was so wonderful. I don't care what substance people were on, but people went around and it was like they were all letting other [00:48:30] people know I value you having. They weren't saying those words, it was just an action. And, you know, there was, You know, we didn't have a drag show. 1234. We had 25 of them on the stage and and, you know, those anthems were about We are family, et cetera. So we had the we had the soundtracks as well to hear all that life, um, going then [00:49:00] in San Francisco, 1993 and seeing Sorry, it takes me back, See people being more withered away. People are about to die being wheeled down the street. One guy and somewhere I got a photograph, and it's all but in a wheelbarrow that someone that has friends pushing, and he's got [00:49:30] my memory of it is probably totally distorted from the photograph and seeing something totally different. And so and And, um that's where that diversity thing came because there were two spirit people who are what we call trans people. And there were all these people who had a place in that parade that were honoured. And I saw for the first time [00:50:00] disability people having a place did people go up and hug them after them? No, not really. But get used to us. We're here, you know, We're all busy going around. We we we're here, We're not going shopping and all that shit, and there's another layer behind us A and and so those diverse things, like the 5. 5 hours of going. And I and I saw [00:50:30] what people I saw what people were meaning, especially with the the eventu of Mardi Gras and hero, because I hear lots of shit going down now are splitting up into our different colours of the flags and becoming fighting with each other over which is the thing. I mean, I was in Sydney last the other year when they had the first stadium, but it's never gonna be the same. We own the street. Why can't we go to the fucking stadium? Why can't we claim the biggest place in? And I went to the protest march [00:51:00] during the day and there was a place for everybody. Let's have both. Why do we have We've got to stop thinking singular, because it was that put us in the cell thinking. I think I'm sorry. I've gotten more psychological, but, um so seeing diversity amongst our ranks, which is what we wanted to bring to be [00:51:30] acknowledged for, um, so fucking wonderful. Um, so, yeah, um, the commercialization of parades. Because that's something I have seen. And, yes, I have got lots of friends that are 79 in Sydney, and I honour what they've done. Well, that was their experience. And that has a page in our book. There are other pages, [00:52:00] and some of that is being in San Francisco and seeing 5000 people in the brightest of colours dancing down the street with Facebook t-shirt, facebook T shirts on, and, uh, funny little man that tells us we can't write dyke in Facebook and we can't write different words because it's a derogatory term. [00:52:30] The only you know, the main man from, uh, Facebook on a trolley car with all his employees around. And Facebook later goes, not allowing trans people to use their own names. It's been corrected. Thanks, Sister. Roma. Roma from San Francisco. Um, look that person up, um, and I just went What the fuck? Why are all [00:53:00] these commercial? Because you're exhausting me. 5000 people in one contingent is too much. When it's a 5. 5 hour parade and one employ, all the people are gone. Skip the leather man and the whacking people people at the end. No, I wanna see that now. Um, but you know, we need we need family friendly because they're getting educated. But I also now realise that it's not just those commercial businesses. Yes, [00:53:30] that's their intention. Yes, they want to get their word across. My hope is that anyone working in any commercially driven float where it's the warehouse, the warehouse, that everyone gets a bargain, Hopefully that works that those people in having their name and their employees who are gay and friends, um means that they've got a kind of unwritten contract at [00:54:00] work. We march and we take you to our parade. You take you You know what I mean? II, I hope I hope. I hope that's big one of the area that I just I'm really enjoying being It's gonna sell like, Oh, he's selling his saint her again in, uh, Melbourne. We have a woman called Yvonne Gardner. I photographed her on my 3rd 2nd night. [00:54:30] I think in Melbourne I thought she was a drag queen old drag queen. She was doing all the moves and attracting a lot of attention to herself. And I found out she was a woman. This woman and I've got to tell her story. Can't be interviewed on anything without talking about people within our fucking community. They are amazing. This woman 25 years ago or 25 years before she died, had gay friends. And please look [00:55:00] up on YouTube when you get home. Look up, Yvonne Gardner. We were there. You will have to listen to her story and her smoky voice. And she will tell you what it was like as a woman going into our not an America story into somewhere as close as Melbourne into the AIDS wards. And she will she does. She takes you. When she tells you the story, she takes you there. [00:55:30] She revisits stories, and I guess I tend to do that as well. She she revisits and she tells you exactly, You can see in her eyes when she's not knowing the person that's so with it and not knowing their name and looking up and going, Oh, such and such. You look wonderful and empowering these dead people. And anyway, from that, she they start putting people who aren't [00:56:00] dying. This is my understanding into public housing and all around a certain area of So it could be Freemans Bay if you like the version of that in in Auckland. But it wasn't and they put people who were not because the the the AIDS were full. People went to see five people was bigger there than what quite we had in proportion. People knew more people that were dying, and [00:56:30] because those AIDS wars were so packed of people dying, there wasn't enough room there. This is my understanding for the people who are not yet there, not hospice ready. And they placed them in these little government departments and they lived there in isolation. And Yvonne Gardner, this woman [00:57:00] let's not ever become misogynist, this woman, but crook soak and she'd go round and fill up their pot and then the house. And then what she noticed was that they're dying. They're dying of stigma. They're dying of loneliness. And whether this was the way she linked it or not, She just went around [00:57:30] and said next week, my car isn't using too much petrol. You boys all have to come down to this address. And she introduced those people who were dying and took them like carbon singularly burning in a fire and put them together. She created a community. Yeah, she sort of moves me. Yeah. So she, um, [00:58:00] for 25 years, that woman up to her death a couple of years ago, organise raise funds from for funds for Britain, brought the food, cooked the food cleaned up from the food for 25 years, every Friday, Did that wove a community. And she [00:58:30] raises money so that every year positive attitude is a group that is known. They have a Christmas lunch, and for 25 years, you know, for how many people turn up, I can't think of anything better to do than being with him and but not trying to fucking be noble or humble or playing your part. But a lot of people were at a funeral going What a fantastic woman she was, You know, a wonderful legacy. And for me, I just went because I've seen [00:59:00] all that shit. I've seen the people in the wheelbarrow in San Francisco in 93 that didn't have Avatar. Uh, and I also heard that when I Gardner was fundraising for our community, she was asked not to enter into one of the game gay men's only venues collecting money for us. And, uh, you know, I heard that thing about my wife again. And, um [00:59:30] so, yeah, one of my I love when I can get down there on a Friday, I work a busy life, but definitely Christmas Day I want to be there, and I don't stick my camera in their face to try and get the let's get the goalies before they go, because that's not my attitude. But if I can acknowledge that person's life, yeah, that's worthwhile. And and we've got all these people that have gone before us that we that [01:00:00] that have set these wonderful legacies that do us so much good. And I just I just think don't just look at them on their photographs and call them fabulous. Um, I can do something. Just do what you can. Yeah. So I really like, um, what you were describing with, um, Yvonne in terms of, um, weaving [01:00:30] a community. And I wonder, is that what you feel or some of what you feel when you're taking your photographs? Are you weaving a community in the individuals? Sometimes. Yeah. Sometimes my camera gets me out of the house sometimes I I live solo and I, you know, it's a life I like. And especially in Melbourne, I'm comfortably numb. I'm isolated. [01:01:00] Covid hasn't helped that it's not a sad story, just how it is and something will come up and I'll go. No one wants to go there, and I you know, and it's like my camera sits there and goes, I'll go out with you, OK? And we'll go out and just going out. I mean, sometimes it won't necessarily. I might start with the intention of going to [01:01:30] somewhere that's gay or politically aligned and that will open up to Oh, I saw all these people that I wasn't interested. You know, I didn't think I'd be, you know, get outside the door and and see what life opens up. So, um, no, I don't. Is one of the reasons that I haven't passed my photographs on to, um, magazines stuff. All that [01:02:00] kind of stuff is, um, yeah, I haven't I haven't really. It's only recently. I mean, II, I what I have as precious cargo. It definitely is. I do. I attach my name to that. Oh, fuck. Two years ago is about, I think the first time I ever actually, uh, watermark photos, Um, and because I've seen [01:02:30] quite a few of my photographs Carmen repay, for instance, pop up and just Google search. Hm. That's great, isn't it? And I'm wrong. I actually no, um I think I'd like to put my name on that. Not as a an art thing, but there are. There are pictures of Carmen who's now right up to my right up to a couple of months who think that I just had a wealth of experience [01:03:00] from that person and some of the photos I've gone. Oh, they haven't got this in, but I can look at those pictures and go That should go to Papa. Not that I took that photograph just because that's a real you know, it's not coming and full on with cleavage and stuff like that. It's that great big flower and that high hairstyle and and the Maori nose and the Maori chin and it just peering out from the side and and so I can see [01:03:30] beyond my difference. Sometimes I can just see that is a beautiful if it captures the essence of somebody. So, yeah, I think I think there's a lot amongst all that archive because a lot of us really busy and too much. You know, I put 10 pictures up a day on on my Queer World site, and sometimes I I bury [01:04:00] the individual essence. It is for me by multi shooting it, I don't know. The right word for that is there's too much, you know, I've got I've got too many photographs. You know, I, I don't go and go. Oh, yes, you know I'm But I tried to estimate, especially after I went digital. I must have over a million photographs and they sit on my computer and they'll go, Why aren't you da da [01:04:30] da da? I was like, Oh, it's not because I'm being selfish with them. They're there for anyone who wants them. And I'm gonna give you a different answer to your question. In about 1985 I had friends who had brought an Ashram for no particular reason, and one was an American, and they thought if they moved up there, they could have lots of friends, and that usually happen. Except on Fourth of July, they'd have Fourth of July. I think [01:05:00] they didn't buy everybody up and we get there and we stay the whole week and there will be this group of we you know, we liked our herbals in those days, and we did lots of herbals and and and just got to know people, and I would generally feel really different. I keep very keep to myself as, um, sometimes I couldn't be bothered [01:05:30] with people, and sometimes I didn't feel like I could. I had a placement with him, but on the last day, and this happened several times. But this thing of archiving that we will only be like this once would drive me, and I didn't have a contrived idea, but hopefully I'll get a picture of all of them together. But that was too big for me to take on, [01:06:00] uh, at 12 people looking back at me. No. And I didn't want to put people in the spotlight, so I would ask him if they would come out individually. One. But just at different times when I felt and I went up to this guy and he had a puppy dog and I can I photograph you and me and yeah, that that's all right. I went, But not here. We don't have to be. And he went, Oh, OK. Then we'll take the dog for a walk around. Yeah, let's set the dog. I took him out and I took some photos and I [01:06:30] lovely photographs of this young Maori man And my friends who hosted that were down in Auckland once and they were looking through my photograph and they went, Oh, that was such a great weekend. And then we went through. And then about a year later, I believe it was they contacted me and I went, Do you still have photographs of da da da. And I went Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, um, do you still have the one of we mocker? And I went Are you more [01:07:00] the guy with the dog? Oh, yeah. Look, they're in the photograph album. They might might be a bit, you know, shabby by now, but yeah, And I went because we recently showed pictures that you took the pictures there, um, to them. And they're wondering is there any possibility that they could buy copies of you? All right. Yeah. You have [01:07:30] to buy a copy of something. You want a picture of your kid and you if you know you. God, I I'm just you know what I mean. I just took photos and they told me that had gone live somewhere else for some years before, and he came back home, was the secret, and he died of the virus, and they didn't get to see him in [01:08:00] full bloom because he lived out in gay world. He just came home to die. And they recognise in this photograph the sun that they brought up the sun that they were proud of and they wanted to know if they could use those photographs for his headstone, that will mean always more to me than having a fucking exhibition. Yeah, because, you know, like, that's the archive [01:08:30] that that leads me back to your Facebook group. And where, where, where? You're showcasing the images. And, um, I've just got a little bit of text from the about page. It says, um, so it was set up 10 years ago in September 2012, but this group will be participants, not merely observers. And I guess I'm really interested in, um in your thoughts around that that that actually [01:09:00] you don't want people just to look at images as you you You want them to kind of connect and communicate to you? Yeah, it's that's that's a really interesting one because it plays the social media. It brings up a whole of stuff, right? I would have stopped within a week if I was dependent on getting my likes and my comments. It also keeps me off the streets [01:09:30] that doesn't You know what I mean. Like it, it gives me a little mission to do with the stuff. I don't have to see people connected with it. I understand. And it's just the way we are that a lot of people are never going to comment on this. There's a photograph of them, Um, and I don't I don't I don't need that. When I said Participant, Of course, Then I became [01:10:00] people start putting their pictures and I'm like, Oh, I think I used the wrong words. They're all about me. Yeah, actually, this is just my window. And when I said participants, I wasn't asking you to. Sometimes I feel it. It's like this when there's nothing at all there for ages. It's a little bit like cooking dinner, and it's my choice [01:10:30] to put 10 photos a day that I pluck out and put them up there. And it, you know, it's a it occupies me. It's doing me more therapy than it's doing anyone else. And I get to relive those moments to be reminded of all those values and the heaviest ones and all that you know. But imagine that you are, and this is the world of social media. Now it's the it's we live in the the [01:11:00] age of the selfie and the etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. We would take lots of them and keep taking them. Keep taking them. Record your history. It's really important. Um, but imagine cooking dinner for people every night. Did you want them to say it's a lovely so like that? I like Fuck off. That means nothing. Conversation. [01:11:30] Would you cook meals continuously for people to come round if you didn't have any discussion with any any current conversations. So I love it when somebody goes. He was a really amazing man. I don't want to hear that. Because a lot of pictures if you look at them, they technically their shit composition is really interesting. But look at what I got to work with. You know, that's strong in the photograph, [01:12:00] but yeah, When When If somebody in there if one of those photos resounds, Uh, I wish you had that. Facebook had a button that said hit something for me. Not like not compli not compliment icons, but just recorded a response that not thank you, Kim, for taking me [01:12:30] there. But that person separate one of you come straight in your photographs. That person empowered me, gave me something, gave me something really made me cry was the best blow job I've ever had. Just just just acknowledge that person not to be measured or recorded by me. And so that's that's the participation. And again [01:13:00] it's I guess it's a little bit linked to Maori is in the sense that we don't have to sit there and spend hours and hours and hours honouring our ancestors before we talk to each other. But it means that we it's a vehicle to us thinking outside ourselves. Yeah and I. I learned that well, that's my version of what I learned from being amongst Maori people as I [01:13:30] know the stories, you don't have to know them all. But just there's a world just outside us that's, you know, I come back so sidetracked when I come back to Auckland as much as I can, and I ask whoever I'm staying with, what do you want to go? Bring a Bring a Tira Oh, sorry to, and I get driven [01:14:00] out on the and just like they laugh because they drive past it every day. It's nothing, and I get to come home and go across the water and see something that's bigger than me gonna be here long before I was here long after I was there. And so I'm fortunate. I'm really fortunate that I got given that set of eyes the gabbling mouth that you know, used to stammer but talks [01:14:30] like crazy. Too many words an hour that can turn an hour and a half interview into a fucking series. But, um, you know, I'm so fortunate and we all we all are. You know, in the last 15 months, I've had seven significant people, not just friends, not just Oh, let me put my quota of dead people up. All of a sudden you go [01:15:00] and they're 10 years. They're all 10 years young, at least 10 years younger than me. And I don't go. I outlasted them. I go, I've got no I've got no reason to feel stink about life. I've got no reason to stink. Feel stink about people who don't accept my lifestyle or bla bla bla like we We become so caught up in all that shit, you know? So you know, II, [01:15:30] I find the archive for me life giving, life giving and and And that's really weird when you say, But there's so many dead people, they're angels. They continue to shine. They angels are not because I believe in a cause. I. I not sure I don't want to claim it, but I see other people that I know using When they put a picture up of somebody and they go, they right behind it once, now an angel. [01:16:00] Now, I didn't come up with that one, but I think I wrote it really early in the piece. And And it's not because you're an angel because my religious things is because they continue to shine a light on my path and our path. You know, I I'm gonna go up later tonight. They're gonna walk up to S and M Bar. I'm gonna please see a picture of my cousin Da de Paul now an angel painted by vet now [01:16:30] an angel Yvette, married man, father of two fantastic Children who I know today. It was had Children in the but had a great trade career and the best best you could see in in in in New Zealand Diversus. But it's just up the road here in Cuba. More think in your little city of Wellington, which I love that you have got someone [01:17:00] running your gay bar that is bigger than the profit that they often don't make. And the losses that have got such a feeling here, Look at Look at if it's still there and I'm sure it will be Look at that wall behind the bar paving stones on the street. We don't sell them. Yeah, so, II, I can't see that and not go. Oh, yes, I've got one of those, too. I mean, thousands [01:17:30] of what the fuck is that? And just it's wonderful that we can We're so privileged that we can I'm so lucky that so many of those people let me photograph them. Sometimes some of them tried to direct me, and these days I took me a while to deal with the, you know, people who Oh, we'll take another one and then do it like this. And they see them in their movie. They look like that. That's not how I saw. I mean, [01:18:00] I learned to just smile and say, Yeah, I take photos, I don't take directions. And I'm not being arrogant with it. It's just like, Why don't I run out of film? And of course, I haven't run out of film because it's digital. But sometimes you just got to release yourself from all that. You know, I remember seeing a, um, a fabulous Brian brake exhibition at the Papa a few years ago, and he was photographing, um, Pablo Picasso and they had a contact sheet. They had a [01:18:30] blow up of a contact sheet, and this was Pablo Picasso. And, um, Brian would have spent one or two frames. Not one frame was the same. And And I thought, Wow, you You have got such confidence that you've captured and then you've just moved on. Uh, do you do you find do you find that, or do you take multiple? Do you just keep? Yeah, I try, because again, I can't lapse into all that was technically right. I mean, if [01:19:00] the person was drag is miming a song, and all of a sudden she had a note that just made her face look dreadful, I might secretly keep that photograph, but I'll get a good one. Um, um, no, I don't, I guess because II I grew up with not, you know, not having kind of money and shirt, that [01:19:30] when I had a 36 film and that was that was breaking out to get a 36 film for a weekend, especially paying for the that even though I had no photographic skill and I didn't know about the balance of light or focusing or it was, it was point and shoot. I think that having that old school format has meant that I tend [01:20:00] to land the photo that I want pretty quickly, you know that. How do I have no fucking idea how I did that? No idea so many. There are so many incredible flukes, but I guess that, you know, it's like the the person with the most incredibly disabled legs providing their up and about on those legs. [01:20:30] They move faster than what they realise and and I I can that that's maybe the case for me. I I'm I'm I still see them as well. Flute. Um, but yeah, I, I It's not. It's not a I don't just sit. I don't sit there trying to get the photograph because, you know, I just want to get them and what they brought to it. And there's another five down there. Besides, you know, get round. I'm really interested to know how you actually hold [01:21:00] the camera? Because some of the photos I've seen they look like it's it's from the hip, some from the you know, the face. How how How do you use the camera? Uh um, my body is my tripod. So when I tried to take myself seriously by doing wedding photographs to make extra money so I could travel and I it was total terror because I didn't know what I was doing. Um, I got a tripod because that you know that [01:21:30] that that'll that'll make your life, you'll be a proper photographer and all it was was something else to lose or ask Where have I put that or break or fall over or in anything? And so I guess I've become my own kind of tripod. Um, it'll be often you. I always want other people to get their photographs, and so I tend [01:22:00] to try and keep a low profile. I hate this thing, and I know a few photographers on the scene who are like, Oh, sorry, but they will stand up to be seen in front of the taking. The photographs I find you're gonna get that contrived is gonna actually, every ingredient flavours a soup, both the taking of the photograph and the person being photographed. I tend to be sneaky, and sometimes sometimes they're a bit torturous. [01:22:30] I don't see that that they're being torturous And because that's, you know, no one wants to be photographed from here and here and here. But the the option is that I stand up and take on a profile, and it's like, Yeah, no, I don't I. I don't know how I take photographs. Somehow they just turn out how they turn out. You have talked earlier about, um, maybe having a bit of banter and also posing people. So So some of the stuff [01:23:00] that you're doing is not like captured in the moment. You you were saying that you actually do direct? Yeah. Yeah, if I if I mean I'm not. Also, I'll try and get candid because that's the essence of that thing that I experienced. It looked like that. Um, I will let's say I've got five drag queens and they're all competing. They don't realise it, but they're all in that moment all competing for the limelight. [01:23:30] And they think in their movie they look great. in the movie I'm seeing actually be. It's not tallest to shortest, but it's like this is going to be the most. And the times that I do direct compose the shot. Um, they are I have some confidence in the composition that I will put people [01:24:00] in the shot, and I will not let anyone cloud anybody out. So I'll bring that person down, and now that person will be at the back and I'll go now come forward and I'll Sorry, I. I know what I do. I get so much exercise whenever, whenever I'm out at a Ben when I'm doing that because I don't explain the shots, I'm gonna jump away from the microphone to say and this isn't gonna transfer, [01:24:30] But I'll say, Gareth, this and not this This this this is and I will construct this because I've taken in without realising it. Everyone's height, dah dah dah broken teeth, dislocated whatever and tried to blend into something so so very [01:25:00] much kind of, um, physically demonstrating to people that kind of Yeah. I mean, um, jumping, I'm I can't say so. I'm, uh because I find that if I say if you say something in words to someone like Stand up Gareth and and and turn to the left. You will do what I imagine, Um, also and I've learned this through the people I work with in disability. Most disabled [01:25:30] people have photographed their disability. First people photographed them like this because they're not sure I tend to get in here. Who? I You're pissing me off at the back because if I say them smile, do you know what they do? They do, and we still do this. We don't realise we do. We do what we think are smiler A they, they they pull all these expressions and they close their eyes. And [01:26:00] and so I have a Down Syndrome woman that I work with, and I've learned her language, not my language. Learn other people's language. That's the best way to get the best out of them. And I'll say to her, Look at my hat now you're not looking at my hat. You can't see my hat with your eyes and I haven't even got a hat on. And she will be up here and I get the essence of her because the way she's scrunching because we do these things [01:26:30] that we how we expect to be recorded and it's not our essence. And it may make for a glamorous shot, but generally it will deplete. Yeah, the best. The best is real. I think maybe with a few more feathers. Is there anyone that you had wished? Or is there anyone or an event you had wished you had photographed? [01:27:00] Yep. Um, because that opens a big door. Um, yeah. Keith Haring at work. Um, I love his simplicity and his his life and stuff like that. [01:27:30] Heavy milk, Nelson Mandela, All the people that tried to make a difference. Yeah, I. I haven't got enough photos of Yvonne Gardner and I've got heap of there heaps and heaps of her. Um, and I'll never have enough because Yeah, I do. I, I there [01:28:00] are just Yeah, there are. There are people. There are why I didn't get that. You can't go back and change that. I'm sure I got my plastic camera after he was around. Oh, my God. And I remember going once with Maori friends to the Maori Community Centre and where Victoria Park is and I went there with some young people to a dance [01:28:30] there. And Victor Moto and his friend Caprice. This has just come out now. Victor Moto and his Caprice were over there, and they were dancing, and no one was mocking them. I didn't realise we had. Yeah, you've been so generous with your time today. I mean, it's been an amazing time we've had, and I'm just thinking in terms of, [01:29:00] um, kind of looking at maybe, um, coming to the end of of our chat. And you've really kind of highlighted to me that the images you take are about capturing the essence of people. And you've you've mentioned a number of people. Um, I'm thinking of people like Carmen. Could you, um, tell me what? What do you think her essence was? I don't think even she realised what it was [01:29:30] because she had a business card. She used to walk around in the street and I'd come down and see da I've got to tell the story. It's so cool. And you'd see Dana. I mean, I met Carmen years ago in 70 then I, Donna and Donna and Georgia were working at the Purple Onion in the late seventies, and Dana would come out. She's got her breast implants. She was coming to call down [01:30:00] on Vivian Street. So she brought her single fabric dress underneath her breast. Nothing to do with the traffic that was going by and street at all my music salacious. And here, coming down the street, bring quite something quite simple and summary for Carmen. You know, the hair right up the flower and the hair. And Carmen came down and he went, Oh, hello, girls. [01:30:30] And she'd been giving out cards to people in the cars. Who she was doing business with us. But she had this car that a white business card. And I said it was Carmen International entertainer, right? And she came down. This so, so rich. This is this is Wellington. Wonderful, wonderful, rich culture. She Hello, girl. Oh, I know you people. [01:31:00] How are you living in Australia? Oh, I know you're living in Auckland. That's right. And she would have a little chit chat with us during calm and chit chat. And then she left for you. Want your and you want your shoes? Oh, yes, girl. Donna went into the back of the purple onion and came back carrying a pair of shoes, and Carmen leaned on my shoulder [01:31:30] as she would later on when we pulled her pull ups in the hospice and said, Thanks, girl and put these shoes on and Donna went back into the club with the shoes and come in anyway, I must go. She was on her and I said to Donna, What was that all about? Because I asked, When I see things I don't just photograph, I want to know what it was all about. And Donna told me, Oh, [01:32:00] calm on her big feet. They swish. She can't just walk around the streets of her dumb to throw her in it as well. She know her circuit is seven clubs and she has a pair of shoes. She changes her shoes at that club and they take the shoes and they put them in the fridge for her so that the next time she does the circuit she got a nice pair of cool shoes. But she hasn't worked [01:32:30] too far, and I went there's that fucking the trick. They used to call it trick in in drag world that that was a trick and and Donna went to two. Fucking trick. And I went. What do you mean she went Well, those shoes never get seen. Seen in the same place for one week. And she had this little She developed this little thing right through to in hospice, and I went and saw her. This is so beautiful. [01:33:00] I knew she was there. Someone had told me she'll probably appreciate some deep fried oysters. She likes her deep fried oysters. You know, we're not there. And Cameron was fading, and she still put the big red lips on. And she rearranged a few strands of hair and she fluttered her eyebrows. Hello, girl. How are you not coming? [01:33:30] She went. Now you're Donna's family, aren't you? And I went, Yeah, I brought some. Yeah. Yeah. How's your people? I I've gone to see these people that we wave up and down. She's on a float when she comes home that we have these big and she's dying. And she's lonely in the hospital. And not because I was there. I could get no credit for that. And she was asking me how I was. Um, [01:34:00] there was a weird accident that happened in her in her, um bathroom in her room, and she told the nurse, Don't worry about that about come back later. She wasn't being demanding. Carmen never demanded. She commanded attention. She never demanded that. Oh, that we would learn. That was her essence. Her rule was pure. Anyway. The the nurse said, [01:34:30] I'll come in, I'll give you a hand with your didn't say the word because they pull me up, come and turned around and went Don't worry about that, darling, she said. I'm with I'm with family I. I never I don't know if she remembered my name for all the times we had seen her and she anyway there. And she bent over in front of me and I went to pull her pull [01:35:00] ups up, getting really humbled, and she turned around and she went, Oh, you do realise I never had the whole change, didn't you? And I went No, I didn't know anything about that car. And she went just in case. There's some surprises, and I just There's no words for that. No, she was just She was just so Sitcom [01:35:30] was very in. My experience was very, very simple, and it kept her purity. One last story of Carmen because that's where I want to leave. This interview is, Are you a local person? I went after photograph. They had a A show in, Put Together a show in Auckland called Carmen's Coffee Lounge, which I photographed over two nights [01:36:00] and like, Oh, where are you now? And I mean, I'm gonna be over in Sydney soon. She went. I'll come and visit me and I went OK, this is before she got the motorised thing and she was living in Riley Street. We're in Ham and I went, I didn't know where she lived. That's why I didn't have her address and I went to [01:36:30] Williams Street. I think it is where the transsexuals and the trannies, et cetera, et cetera, do their business. And I'm I know we had a phone came, but she's there. Had to wait till about half past 12 at night. I won't give you ages, but do the math. We're talking 1994 She's no spring chicken, and [01:37:00] there she is. In the you know, the cleavage is almost down to the waist. The hair is as high as the opera house that she's floating organza, saying still with cars and car and international entertainers. Still the same cars as she had. Yeah, all those years before. Yeah, And she saw me. Oh, hello, darling. And the big Red. Looks like I said, [01:37:30] Which road papers do your lips car? Oh, you're funny, aren't you? But she's good. And then she said, Come with me, darling. And we walked down and I was her balancing stick. We walked down that from the, uh, Coca Cola sign. We were walking down the entrance. So she's doing her nods at the cars and stuff like that. And then we got down there and there were [01:38:00] She went, Oh, we gotta cross the road, hold me up. And she made me cross the road and I went I'm not being your fucking fucking hooker's fucking aid, you know? No, no, no. She saw a trans person on the wrong end of drugs and she went over and she went She made her way Be She went. Girl, are you alright? No fierceness [01:38:30] girl, Are you all right? Show me. You can sit up. You're gonna be all right. And the person went Yeah, Yeah, I'm all right. Carmen and Carmen reached into her bag and she said, Make sure you got these and she put her hand into her bags and picked up put, put out some condoms and some lube and pop them into that thing. And we did that twice in about five minutes. What was Cameron [01:39:00] like? So rude for that? I thank you, willing to keep honouring that the that she planted here can still grow if we let it. That's what I want to say.

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PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_arts_festival_2022.html
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093062
TITLE: Visiting the Queer Arts Festival hub
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VOICES: Jess Ducey; Roger Smith; Will Hansen
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; COVID-19 (coronavirus); COVID-19 face mask; Chris Parkin; Courtenay Place; Gay Liberation Front Rotorua; International Committee LGBT History Months; Jess Ducey; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Open Collective; Phil Parkinson; Queer Arts Festival 2022 (Wellington); Rodney Wilson; Roger Smith; Sandy Gauntlett; The Archive is Alive (zine); The Glamaphones; The Tiwhas; Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); Twenty Years On: Histories of Homosexual Law Reform in New Zealand; Urban Dream Brokerage; Wellington; Will Hansen; archives; artist; arts; circus; drag; gay; joyfulness; lesbian; performance; queer; queer joy; revolution; rhetoric; stickers; transgender; zines
DATE: 4 June 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: 106 Courtenay Place, 106 Courtenay Place, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Jess. Do, uh, they or she pronouns? We are currently at 106 Courtney Place, which is the urban dream brokerage pop up space that we are using as a queer a F Queer Arts Festival headquarters for this week. Tell me about that. Where did it come from? What is it? Um, stands for Queer Arts Festival. Um, not the most creative title. Actually, we were calling it the Queer Arts Festival for a while, and then we realised that it shortened quite nicely to queer F. Um, which brought [00:00:30] us great joy. Um, the end of last year, my partner and I were on a road trip. We I just got rejected for a job programming a festival. Um, I really enjoy events. They really enjoy Queer art. We both enjoy queer art, and we kind of started talking about how it would be neat to have just a whole festival of queer art. There's so many amazing performers and artists and writers and poets in this town, and they're doing a lot of amazing art less so in the last couple of years. And we thought it would just be nice to have a week. Just a party basically [00:01:00] of as much queer art as we could get crammed into one week. Um and then we accidentally followed through on that. I guess that's how we got here. Um, we put in for funding to, uh, Wellington City Council's Creative Communities Fund. And that came through in March. And that was kind of the impetus to go from OK, this is a hair brand scheme, OK, we can actually do this with some funding. Um, because we we kind of devised a model where we'd recruit producers from different art forms to put on an event [00:01:30] kind of within their art form. We'd pay artists a base fee coming out of the subsidised, like the grants, budgets and stuff with ticket sales. Kind of topping it up to make sure we can pay artists because currently, at the way, we price tickets and the size of venues, especially if you have to space people out under covid. You can't pay people a fair wage based on ticket sales alone. So we needed some grant funding. And once we secured some of that, we decided to go ahead and do it. I'm I'm just kind of going like, Wow, because, um, community events I've known about in the past that they've been like umbrella [00:02:00] organisations where groups have kind of come under that umbrella. But you're actually doing more than that. You're actually paying performers. Yeah. Um, yeah. So we made a little kind of umbrella organisation we're operating under, um, an organisation called Open Collective, which basically operates as either a charitable trust or a society without you having to do the registration so we could run a kind of pilot that way. Um, and yeah, we both have worked in nonprofits. We've worked in fundraising, We've worked in the arts, and we know that it's really hard to make a living in the arts. Um, [00:02:30] I have a cushy public service day job. Um, that I cut my hours on to work on this, and it was just one of those things where we're like, No, if we're going to do events and festivals, we should. This is about celebrating. The artist is about creating work for them, and this is about this being a positive experience for artists and then as a nice bonus, sharing the art with the town. Um and kind of showing people. This is this is who makes the city interesting. And this is what makes Wellington a creative capital and a po absolutely, positively Wellington And all the kind of things that we tell ourselves about our city. [00:03:00] Um, and I think it's really easy to forget that those are actual people who make that. That's why the city is interesting. Um, and we're starting to lose people because you can't afford to live in this town. And so we wanted to create some work, Um, and basically just have a big gay party. So can you give me a sense of some of the acts that have performed over the last week? Um, yeah, we've had, uh, a whole bunch of shows. Um, we started with an opening gala on Monday. Um, where [00:03:30] the performed Who are Wellington's? They were amazing. Um, we had some comedy and some improv on Tuesday night. Wednesday night, we had, um, a literature reading where writers read letters to their queer idols. Um, and then we had a music gig Thursday night. We had burlesque and some poetry readings. Um, Friday night and all week long we had too much hair, gender, euphoric musical about, um, by and about trans and non-binary and gender nonconforming people and the kind of experiences [00:04:00] of gender euphoria. Uh, today, Saturday, that's what today is. We have, um, a circus show this evening and then another, um, poetry and pie poetry. And, like, food is a love language event later tonight. And then tomorrow there is a drag brunch. Um, sorry. A drag high tea. Too early for brunch. 3 p. m. and all week long over at QT Hotel, we've had, uh, drag performers singing in the lounge at Happy hour. And then we've had a few partner events with, [00:04:30] um, there's a show on tonight at Ivy done by Rachel Atlas. Um, that's like a cabaret from people who work in or have worked in the sex work industry. Um, and then tomorrow night is mixed capital drag finals over at IV as well as a dance party. Biba. Um, and so, yeah, it's been a lot. Um, basically, all the art forms, the only one I feel like we're kind of missing is dance, um, in, like, a pure dance sense. And I think that's because with a couple of months. Notice venues where you can [00:05:00] do dance are a little bit harder to book. Um, but we've got visual art here in the headquarters, and, yeah, we're pretty stoked with the kind of array. And just look at the coverage across the genres that we've seen and just a nice reminder that there are beautiful queer artists in all sectors. This is an amazing, um, space this hub. You've got artwork all throughout. Can you describe some of it? Uh, gosh, I can try. [00:05:30] Um, so we've got some illustrations from, um, a member of the glamour phones who was illustrated what I believe is a number of people from the choir over the years, um, with some kind of pen and ink portraits, a couple of large format paintings. And, um, I think there's some pastels and oils in there. Some like illustrations, some zines. We've got some, um, soapstone carvings, some kind of collage work. Just a really nice variety. Which, um, was a really [00:06:00] pleasant surprise to have people kind of come through. We just put an open call. That was like, Hey, we have a space. If you'd like to display anything, get in touch. Um and yeah, as expected, where artists came through and it's so diverse as well. I mean, there are so many kind of mediums and, um, ideas and visuals. Yeah, I think it's, um, this has been kind of a good exercise, and something across the festival we want to have is this is about celebrating queer art and queer artists, and your art doesn't have to be like, explicitly queer. [00:06:30] Um, and I think that's something that's been interesting for some of the art forms. For instance, the circus show sold out quite quickly, and it's been really popular. We've realised that it's likely because there are a lot of circus performers who are queer. But circus as an art form isn't always queer. Um, and there's not always chances to kind of bring your whole identity to your art form. And so that's been interesting to see um, and give people space to kind of be like, Yes, I'm out and proud and this is also the art I do. And some people's art is explicitly queer. Some people's art is queer just because they are so you're using the word queer [00:07:00] in a in a whole lot of ways, and it's even in the the title of the festival. Why that word? Um, honestly, because it's easier and shorter, um, than trying to kind of cover the range of identities. Um, I personally like the word because it has left space for me for my identity to kind of evolve and change. And it captures a lot of stuff that's around both your sexual orientation and also your gender identity and your expression and the way you move in the world. [00:07:30] Um, and I I personally enjoy the word because it leaves space for things to change. Um, it's a really kind of nice catch all for a community, without having to come up with the exact words that describe how I feel about my gender and my sexuality, which, honestly, I'm not sure how I do. Um, ask me in a week I might have a different word for it. Um, and so we like the word for that because it is a nice catch. All, um, we enjoy that. It's kind of been and has been reclaimed from having been a slur. Um, and it's just a lovely [00:08:00] It's a nice word that kind of says that implies a lot of things about the way you see the world and the way you move through the world without having to define it more than that and gives people space to kind of name their own identities. Yeah. How do you think it influences? Uh, one of the people that are coming to you in terms of, uh, they've got performances, productions they want to do, but also the audiences, when they see something like queer in the title Does that influence who comes to the [00:08:30] performances? That's a great question. I would be super keen to, you know, see some data on that. Um, I think we've seen, um, just kind of anecdotally across a pretty broad generational range of people being like, Yes, this is exciting. Um, a lot of feedback we've gotten is I can't believe this didn't exist. Um, and then I submit to anyone who's attempted to organise a bunch of queers. You probably figure out why it hasn't existed. Um, yeah, I think it, um we've had [00:09:00] questions for people about like, Can I come? I'm straight. Um, and I think that's kind of an interesting one to think about um, because I don't know that you would ask. Are you allowed to go to the ballet? If you're gay, Um, you know, Are you allowed to go to art that is either explicitly or just implied to be heterosexual? Um, yeah. I think there's definitely some people who are kind of like, Oh, queer. I still feel weird about using that, but I think, um, that's kind of the beauty of the community and having conversations about it as we all get to sort of decide what [00:09:30] we want to do. Um, and yeah, it's just a fun word. Honestly, um, we didn't put as much, um, you know, trying to name the thing. It was we wanted something that really did what it said on the tin. You'd be really clear. This is a queer arts festival. Um, and yeah, we didn't really want to go further than that, Especially for the first time around where you're trying to explain. What's a new festival? Where did this come from? Yes, There's still a pandemic on how are we dealing with that? Um and yeah, I just decided to go with a really [00:10:00] just not at all. Subtle name or brand name. It kind of does hark back to, uh I mean that this year is the 50th anniversary of Galib in New Zealand. Um I mean, there were things before 1972 but it really took off in 1972 and it was really blatant. And I think words like queer. I mean, it is completely blatant, and it is what it is. It is what it says it is. Um, one of the other things that happened in 1972 that that that they used performance [00:10:30] as as a, um, a way of getting across political or social messages. Do you think, um, that still happens with queer performance today that it's all about kind of social messaging, political messages? Yeah. I mean, I think most art is about kind of reflecting on society and our place in it and how you feel about it, whether it's queer or not. Um, but I think it's interesting in a lot of queer art forms. Just existing visibly queer, um, is still a political statement, especially if [00:11:00] you are going to deviate from the gender binary in any way, or if you're going to kind of mess with any of those sort of norms around. What does it mean to be gay or lesbian or to be, You know, any particular narrow branch of identity? Um and so, yeah, I think one thing that we talked about a lot and kind of starting this festival and a loose theme of the festival has been specifically around. Queer joy. Um, and I've been pondering a lot lately about the idea of kind of joy as an act of resistance and joy is a political [00:11:30] act as well. There's a lot of, um, a lot of queer narratives tend to be rooted in trauma. Um, because there are traumatic experiences. But there is also really beautiful, happy, joyous ones, and I think it's important that we celebrate those and we celebrate those in ways that honour that that is also important art, um, that that is serious and deep and meaningful and poignant. And I think there's I mean, there's this thing across all the arts where you know comedies don't win Oscars. It's it's drama that's real art, and it's serious. Um, and I don't think that's true. I think [00:12:00] that you can make just as much of a political statement with joy as you can with any other emotion. Um and so I guess that's a long way of saying that like, Yes, any art can be political existing as a queer person can be a political act. Um, and sometimes it can just be fun and silly, but I think one thing that I've enjoyed in, um, just recent years in kind of Wellington's art scene this is just me personally, is how much drag has kind of gone from, um, playing at the binary [00:12:30] to just like, overt gender fuckery across the board. Um, and I really have enjoyed that and the way of just kind of pushing back against all of the norms we hold around genders, Um and yeah, just obliterating them in a way that's really fun to watch. And really interesting to get people kind of thinking about Oh, why why does it look uncomfortable? Why does this make me feel alive inside? Um, so, yeah, I think it's it's good to have space for political art, for joyous art, for all of the things. Um, [00:13:00] yeah, just just picking up on the kind of theme of of Joy and fun. Um, I have a feeling that over two years of covid pandemic, um, we're all looking for a bit more, a bit more fun and joy. And I'm wondering, um, how has COVID-19 impacted on creating a festival, getting performances, going and also getting audiences in? Uh, it's hard. I mean, it's been hard for the arts for two years because, um [00:13:30] when there has been funding to support, sometimes it's difficult to access. It's can be difficult to access for individual performers. Um, and you know, initial funding was kind of channelled through employers, which makes it really difficult if you're a sole contractor and if you're kind of doing art on the side. Um, so it's been hard to make art and to be a performer. Um, whether that's because shows got cancelled. Whether that's because distancing meant that you'd either have to quadruple ticket prices or just have really sad small shows. Um, and so there's been a lot of factors that have made it just really difficult to do art. [00:14:00] Um, and I think we're still in the throes of a pandemic, but we're kind of changing the way we relate to it. Um and it's Yeah, it makes event planning challenging. One thing that was kind of nice about the festival is by coming together as kind of a group of us. We're able to share some of the organising around, you know, printing posters and having kind of larger scale marketing and doing things as a festival rather than individual events, to try to kind of by having a bunch of producers putting on things, hopefully getting a little bit more cross pollination across different [00:14:30] communities. Um, but it's hard. I think people are definitely, um, you know, venturing back out. But many people are not, and that's very understandable. We're also seeing that people are definitely not booking tickets in advance. Um, a lot of people are kind of waiting to the day of which is great for them. Um is stressful for people who manage budgets. Um, but I think that's it's very true, is that we're kind of deciding what what does the world look like in a the reality where the pandemic is just part of our [00:15:00] life now, and how do we navigate that? Um, and it makes events hard. It makes festivals hard, but it also makes an event happening Really exciting and magical. Um, because there have been so many cancellations and there have been so many, even just somebody getting sick and having to be swapped out. And it's just like it really impacts if you, you know, if you make your life in live art, Um, and I don't make my living in live art, but if you do that, it's really [00:15:30] the pandemic has sucked. Um, And so that's part of what we want to do is just have a chance to be like, yes, you know, get back out, perform something, get in front of us audience again. Audiences have some joy in your life. Um, hopefully we can keep having more of it. Yeah, well, thinking about the future and thinking about, um, possibly, um um, year two of of this festival, Um, what are what are your thoughts? And, um do you Do you think there will be a festival [00:16:00] next year? I love this Everyone. I mean, people asked this before this festival even started. And I was like, Let's see how the first one goes. Let's see if everyone survives. Um, but yes, we'd love to, um This was fun. Festivals are great celebrating. Queer art is great. Um, June this year was kind of an accident. Um, we So one of the shows in the festival, Too much hair, um, the other co-founder and I they're creating that show and that that [00:16:30] show had a season booked at bats for last week of May 1st week of June. And so we were like, Let's do a Queer Arts Festival. Who knows what's gonna work out? We'll see. We'll have too much hair on. Maybe we get a couple of other events if we can get two or three and we can call it a festival and we can call our first year a success if we have, like, multiple events. And then everyone got really excited and like venues out of nowhere were contacting us to be like, Hello, We would like to be involved. Would you like a free space? Here's some money. Here is some product. Um, and the festival got larger, which [00:17:00] is great. Um, and so we liked. I mean, June was nice because, yes, it aligns with pride. It aligned with the show. It was kind of felt like a ridiculous but not completely unreasonable amount of time to try to put something together. It was, in fact, ridiculous. But here we are. Um and so, yeah, we're thinking about what the future would look like. Another festival. Um, June is nice for pride. June is not nice for Wellington. Um, it's really hard to want to come [00:17:30] to an eight or nine o'clock event if it's been dark for four hours. Um, and if it's been raining so yeah, the timing could change. Um, but the the nice thing about, like, planning in advance, it would be nice to, like, book out with as many venues as we could to have had enough plenty of time because part of the challenge of doing this with two or three months notice is you're kind of limited by either venues that don't book that far in advance or have empty space or, like, kind of filling in gaps. And so that meant we had some events on sort of what are weird nights for their sector, [00:18:00] like Tuesday night comedy. Not super common. Um, and so being able to kind of plan ahead with more venues and, um, plan bigger lineups and you know, go to print with a with a paper programme in advance. Um, because we would have confirmed lineups with more advanced notice. Um, so yes. Currently, it would be nice if there would be another one. some of that depends on funding and getting other funders to come to the table, particularly if you want to kind of expand it and cover more things. Um, and that's [00:18:30] that tension of keeping a festival viable for performers and affordable for audiences, which is a bigger conversation that I think we need to have as an art sector in a city about how we price tickets. But that's a different conversation. Um, so, yes, there will likely be one, perhaps at a more hospitable time of year, but also, I mean, I guess not trying to find a kind of a time of year when there isn't something else on or something else. Huge but trying to fill in the gaps of the year. So we'll see. [00:19:00] Stay tuned. We're just, uh, about a day and a half away from the end of the festival. What are your biggest takeaways from from, uh, organising this time? Um, queer artists are great, like it's a delight to work with a whole bunch of people who are kind of sharing the same values and are excited about the same things and who believe that art is important and that it's not a luxury. But it's something that makes our lives and our cities more beautiful and worthwhile. So that's great. [00:19:30] Um, I think it's been really exciting to see the number of people who people and businesses who came to us wanting to get involved. Um, I've organised other events where either things like getting sponsorship or trying to find spaces can can feel like pulling teeth. Or it feels like you're really struggling to get this happening. And we had people literally calling us up out of nowhere to be like, Hello. We would like to be involved. How can we help? UM, which has been really incredible, which kind of shows that there are a lot of people who care about art and artists [00:20:00] in this town, even when it kind of feels like the systems don't um yeah, so that's been exciting. And just to see kind of audiences and like groups of artists like that, that magic that comes together during a show or during an event, um is just really nice. And these we had a a poet at one of the events the other night who said it was their first time reading at an explicitly queer event, which struck me as really interesting, particularly for poetry. Um, but yeah, that that place where you kind [00:20:30] of in spaces that sort of start out from that assumption, Um, you get to have more interesting connections and conversations with people because you start from just more shared understanding, I guess. I don't know. It's just it's really lovely and wholesome to see queer artists performing and having a good time. And the audience is having a nice time. And honestly, I'm really looking forward to next week when I get to pay everyone and just, like, sit down for four hours, just like you get money and you get money and you get money to 70 something artists, which is kind of why we did this. [00:21:00] And it's really exciting to, um, actually get to do that. That's amazing. And thank you so much for for putting on the festival and giving people the the the space to to perform and show their works. Um, yeah. I mean, honestly, thanks to people for coming and for people for making beautiful art so that we have something to share. Um, yeah, I guess if you want to be involved in future ones, slide into our D MS or inbox, we'll see. I don't know. Um yeah. Thank you. [00:21:30] Now, sharing this wonderful hub as well we've got, um ans And I'm just going to go over and have a chat with the team at LA So luck. Luckily, it's a small space, because otherwise I'll be petting for a long time. And we have from Legans. Who do we have from Legans today? Will Hanson from legends and Roger Smith from so Will and Roger. Why was it important for to be here today? Well, [00:22:00] it's great to show support for the Queer Arts Festival. Um, and it's a great opportunity for us to advertise what we do, uh, in front of us. Fairly sympathetic crowd. Um, and just to show some of the artefacts that we have, I'm looking at the table for inspiration. So, um, some copies of some of the artefacts and the things that we have in the archive. Um, a little bit of a PowerPoint presentation, Um, which people can sort of browse through and see the sort of work that we do and, um, sort of things that we collect and the things that we [00:22:30] would like to have more of of people have in their attics or photos or whatever. Um, and really, just, uh, a chance to, um, get ourselves in front of the community. That's why it's important for us to be here today. So let's go to the table and will. Can you just take me through some of the the stuff that you've you've brought today? Oh, yeah. So, um, I've bought, uh, three different zines. We've got the zine That's just a free zine about leg ends, um, that people can just pick up and take away. And then [00:23:00] there's the two volumes of the archives Liz scenes. Oh, and then I've got two stickers that say Smile off your Trans. They were the only ones I had left. And what about on the rest of the table and then on the rest of the table? What? What is what is this that we have here. Is this Just copies of, um, some of the things we have in the archive. So there are, um, pages from various, uh, queer magazines or news papers or letters that have been [00:23:30] published in New Zealand over the years. Uh, what else? We got some great photos of various, um, protests and demonstrations around the place and also on the table. There's a book called 20 Years On. And it was, um, looking at homosexual law reform, I think. Was it 2000 and something? 2006. 2005? That's right. Yes. Correct. That's right. So it was put together by Alison Laurie Evans. Um, and there was a a conference and an exhibition held around that time as well. And this book, um, is [00:24:00] of some of the papers that were given by such people as, um, Tim Barnett. Marion Street was talking Tony Simpson, Phil Parkinson to in Stone. Miriam. So So a lot of a lot of the big names in the community were giving papers at that conference, and it's great that they've been collected together in this booklet, which is available for sale. So I was talking to, uh, Jess before, and we're just mentioning about 1972 being the 50th anniversary of, um, gay liberation. And as we've got homosexual law reform 86. [00:24:30] But back in 72 that's when gay liberation was just starting. Well, I know you've written quite a bit around about gay liberation in the 19 seventies. What is it like for you to kind of reflect back on the 19 seventies? Because, um, you're you're you're still quite young, aren't you? I mean, I'm 25 so reflecting back on, uh, the seventies for me. Well, I guess for me, it's just, um, feeling, um so grateful looking at what people have done and how hard [00:25:00] people worked and what they put on the line to change things and feeling hopeful and wanting to continue on that legacy and wanting to find ways to emulate what they did back then and what we can learn. And, um, all of those kinds of things is is what I is what I think of. But I also like, uh, think about the difference what it was like to be a student back then versus what it's like to be a student. Now and the kinds of different challenges we face, too. Um, yeah, [00:25:30] That a good thing, I. I just wonder like I mean, when I look back at the seventies, I mean, it's just such another country, isn't it? New Zealand. And you know what would have gay liberation? Been like, say, with social media with with smartphones, with the way that we're all interconnected nowadays, I think it would be ruined by infographics. I think I Yeah, I don't I don't know. That's a really interesting question. Um, I don't know. I think these are getting messages out more quickly. Um, I think [00:26:00] rather than it being kind of a secret society, it would have been much more sort of public. Um, certainly as a way of sort of, um, rallying people, Um, for for the cause. Um, social media is great. It would have been totally different, I think. And maybe it wouldn't have taken then. Another 10, 14, 15 years for law reform. It might have. Actually, the the the mood might have been might have been such that, um, things might have happened a lot more quickly. Hm. Well, thank goodness [00:26:30] for Hans and actually saving, uh, the images and documents and pamphlets and meeting notes from from from that time. Yeah, Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I feel very grateful for legends, and I think maybe I've said this to you before, but when I was still in the closet and still at high school when I was googling gay history things, it was leg ends that was coming up. So, you know, it has It definitely feels very personal for me to be able to actually hold these materials. And I hope that people who are coming in off the street have that same kind of [00:27:00] feeling of of community and of, um, of family and heritage when they see these things and is lag ans am I right in thinking Lagan are celebrating a special year this year? It is, Yeah. Um sorry. Will, uh so 30 years in its current incarnation is ans so that it's a charitable trust now and that's been going 30 years. But it's also 45 years since it was kind of formed. And, um, things were started to be collect together, which eventually became [00:27:30] an uh so that's another, um, celebration that we are going to be marking this year in September with a an evening of of things about, um, Rainbow history that, uh, will involve legs and, um, some speakers from the past. Actually, that's the cool thing about the some of the stuff that we have here is this is stuff that people were collecting even before there was the resource centre. So even before the 45 years, there's people's scrapbooks [00:28:00] and things and honouring that long legacy is a really cool thing to be able to do with some of the material here. And will you? You're quite heavily involved in that September event. Yeah, I was definitely involved in the in the, um, start of thinking about it. Um, I came up with the title out of the ashes because I didn't. Well, I didn't come up with it, but it was already on the website. Um, that, uh, Chris Parking and Phil Parkinson. Um wrote that title and wrote a piece about Legans history. And so I thought, calling the event that is a nice [00:28:30] way to link to the work that they've done. And it's so dynamic. They did a really good job coming up with something so flashy about Phoenix rising out of the ashes and, uh, in in connection to an arson attack on la ans a few months after homosexual law reform in 1986. Um, and yeah. So, yeah, we wanna honour that history, honour the resilience of the archives. Um, all of those good things. Thinking about the history of leg ends, What are the biggest [00:29:00] challenges facing leg ends now? Uh, I think I mean, I think money is a big one, and I fair fair to say that that I think, you know, we need we just need more resources there. There are some ambitious plans in place for digitising the collection and making it more accessible digitally. And so that's a big expense. Getting the website, getting the databases, getting the the digitization programme happening. So that's thing one. But thing two, it's curated, [00:29:30] uh, and looked after by a really small team, a small board. Um, and then within that we've got the curators, um, uh, Linda Evans and, uh, Roger Swanson, who do the sort of hands on, um, what do they call it? A acquisition of things and the describing and the cataloguing of of of material. as it comes into the archive. But what we really need is is is somebody doing that on a if not a full time [00:30:00] basis, a part time basis, but on a permanent basis, Preferably so that we've got, um, someone who's constantly looking at the collection and maintaining it and, um uh, being a point of contact when people want to access the, uh, the the collection, and that's really important. But again, that's expensive. Hiring qualified. Um, you know, uh, knowledgeable people in that area, uh, is isn't cheap. I mean, nor should it be [00:30:30] cheap, to be honest. But, um, it's an expense. So we've got to raise money for that kind of thing, too. And it's an ongoing cost as well, because we want someone looking after it all the time, not just coming in for a couple of months and then going away and then coming back. You know, we need somebody there who is that point of contact all the time, and that links into I guess those are our practical concerns and challenges. But then that links into our, um, more abstract, I guess goals and our, um, about accessibility and about [00:31:00] inclusion and about how we That's why events like this is so important because that allows us in a way that we don't have to spend much money to actually come in and look at the archive. But digitization will be a huge way of making things more accessible for people and bringing things out to people so they don't have to come all the way into Wellington into the National Library and do all that kind of intimidating stuff that can be intimidating for people. In my sense has been that over the last, what, 5, 10 years? There has been a real increase [00:31:30] in, um, not just young people, but a lot of queer communities really interested in the past and wanting to make use of things. Like Have you found that as well that the the actual access requirements are are kind of going up I, I think Certainly interest in the archive and what it has to offer, uh, is going up. I know from, um the reports that that Roger and Linda do, uh, at the board meetings on people that have, um sent him queries or have wanted to visit the archive or wanted to use. It has [00:32:00] definitely gone up. More and more people are doing their PhD research using, um, like, well, using material from the archive. Um, so definitely it's increasing over time. But to me, the very existence of the archive of an as as an archive for lesbian and gay and all the other parts of the of the alphabet. So, um, is really, um, significant and important, because it raises the question. Why do we need this archive? [00:32:30] And the answer to that question is because for most of our history, uh, no one has been collecting this material. We couldn't rely on a public library or or the the National Archive to collect material which related to our history. And that's outrageous when you think about it, because our history is the nation's history is the world's history. So the fact that this exists because no one else was collecting it to somebody had to is, is [00:33:00] a for me. It's a real reminder of the fact that, um, so much of our history is hidden or hasn't been preserved or is forgotten, and the existence of an archive is a way of trying to reopen those doors to remind ourselves of our history, to assert that we have a history that that needs to be explored and researched and talked about and celebrated. It was interesting you talking about specifically about kind of lesbian and gays and everyone [00:33:30] else, and I know that the las name is lesbian and gay archives. I mean, is that Is that just from a time and a place when LA was formed? Because, I mean, it seems a bit narrow now, and I guess does it mean that other voices aren't heard in the archive? Well, I think it's a really interesting question because I definitely found that when I first joined Legans, I remember beginning to reach out to other trans people and them rejecting me, asking them to donate things [00:34:00] or to buy things to put in the archive. Um, because they don't feel represented by the name and they're used to organisations that do have limiting names, not making space for them. Um, and I think I guess in terms of thing about it is a time and a place I don't want to be too harsh because I wasn't there. I don't know, but I feel like We did have trans stuff in the collection and it wasn't a good thing that it was, you know, named such a limiting thing, even if it was also just what people were doing at the time. Um so I think I think it's a really important [00:34:30] thing that we look at because it's not just a name, it's about making a statement of who we're here for. And that reminds me of like what Roger was saying just before about the importance of our archives and actually like the fact that denial of our history is is used to oppress us and is used by turfs and trans phobes and queer phobes of all different kinds to try and undermine us and undermine our our right to life and our struggles and all of those kinds of things. And I do think that [00:35:00] we are seeing a rise in anti trans rhetoric and I think broader, anti queer rhetoric, too. Looking at what's going on in the States right now is really scary, but that's also kind of stuff happening here. So I think that our archive is is you know, this information, it's so important that it be kept safe and it's so important that we kept in community hands. I think that's where the the name it's all. It's all part of that. It's all standing up and saying We're here and we have a history and we've always been here and all of that kind of thing and it absolutely starts from the very top [00:35:30] of it from that name, doesn't it? And and kind of comes down from that, So we definitely. But we definitely in saying all that. We definitely have some beautiful collections that are not just lesbian and gay collections, and I'm just looking here at a letter written by Sandy Gauntlet, who was a absolutely incredible trans activist and who was involved and set up the Gay Liberation Front and all of those kinds of things and all of those histories that, you know, me being a researcher as well. I wouldn't be able to access any of that information if it wasn't for La ANS and the same people who made the name La Ans. So you know I can't [00:36:00] be too mean about it, and I guess it's also not to diminish the you know, um, lesbian and Gay um, archives as well. And it must be a very hard thing when you've got an organisation that's been around for a long time to actually kind of move as our, um, ideas about identity and the words we use changes over time, doesn't it? Absolutely. Yeah. And so, yeah, I definitely don't mean it in a in a mean way, because I do think, Yeah, yeah, I. I can't articulate it as well as you just did, [00:36:30] but I agree with you. But also so having said that and I don't mean to finish your sentence well, but, um, it definitely it's, you know, it needs to change, you know, the time for a change of the title, describing what it is that we are and what we do, um, is is well and truly here. In fact, it's probably passed, but it's not a problem which is exclusive to New Zealand, and other archives around the world have also, um, risen to the challenge [00:37:00] of finding a name which is inclusive of all the people that we represent. So, um, that challenge is certainly definitely on for us here in New Zealand. And, um, some suggestions about a change in the name would actually be really useful if people have any, Um then let us know. Well, this is a really lovely segue into the kind of international space. And I know roger that you are one of the founding members of a very special, uh, group. [00:37:30] Yeah. So the group I, I have to read it because it's, um it took us quite a bit of time in the very first, uh, meeting that we had a zoom meeting at the beginning of the year to agree. Try to get an international group of people to agree on anything but to agree on the name, what we were going to be called and then agree on what it was that we were going to be doing. Um, you'd think it's almost impossible, but actually, we achieved it. And so the name the official name is it's the International committee on LGBT Q Plus History months. [00:38:00] The mission statement is I'll just quickly get to this too. The mission of the International Committee on LGBT Q Plus History months is to share knowledge to support existing LGBT Q plus History Month projects and to encourage new LGBT Q plus history months around the world. And so this starts from an idea, um, that a guy called Rodney Wilson in the US had and that was to have a whole month celebrated nationally, [00:38:30] not just in your city or your state, but the whole of the US. Looking at, um, Queer history devoted to queer history and for it to be an annual event. And since 1994 he's achieved that, Uh, there's been a month devoted every year to queer history. Fantastic. And so his mission was to try and recruit as many other countries around the world to have a to have national months of celebration, uh, for queer history. And, um, So far, there are the likes [00:39:00] of the UK, which has had one every year since 2005. Uh, some of the constituent parts of the UK have their own history. Months like Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales have their own history months as well annually, and they have since the mid two thousands. Uh, and then there are other countries to, um, like Australia. Um, has had one since 2016, uh, Canada, Finland, Italy, and kind of what I find surprising is places like Hungary have had every [00:39:30] year since 2013 have had a month celebrated nationally to explore and to to, you know, promote, um, queer history. Now, I find it extraordinary about hungry. When you think of the political situation there, it has a very right leaning government. And they've introduced a number of, uh, homophobic, um, rules and regulations which make it very hard if you're [00:40:00] a AAA member of the rainbow community over there to exist, let alone enjoy life. And yet, every year they've had this month and they had one, I think it was April this year, um, under really difficult circumstances. And and yet, um, it was really inspirational because they did it. Uh, and in fact, um, at the end of the month, uh, instead of having a big end of year function celebrating the fact that they had their history month, they decided to do a mass [00:40:30] protest about the Russian invasion of Ukraine. And so they devoted that part of the of the history month to, um, some political activism on behalf of other people elsewhere, Which is kind of amazing. Really. So, um, so that sort of thing is is is really inspiring for me. And then, uh, just this year, Cuba for the first time, has had its first, uh, Rainbow History Month. And when you think of Cuba again, they've got lots of human rights [00:41:00] issues going on there, particularly for rainbow people. Uh, and yet they have managed to have a month devoted to, um looking at all sorts of aspects of rainbow history in Cuba. Fantastic. In fact, it was the first, uh, Rainbow History Month in a Spanish speaking country. Um, which is extraordinary. So they got they Even the head of Spain. Spain doesn't have one yet. And so I I'm thinking, Well, if these countries where actually life is is someone, uh, part of the rainbow community can be [00:41:30] really hard if they can have a whole month publicly acknowledging and celebrating and, um, promoting, uh, rainbow history in their country. Well, why can't we, um, and we've had a few kind of fledgling attempts, and we do have lots of pride events around the country, but it's not quite the same as having a month devoted to queer history, which, um, it would be amazing if we could get off the ground in New Zealand. Maybe sometime next year have a forum for, um, people [00:42:00] who are doing academic research like will, um, but also have, um, exhibitions. And, uh, uh, things like this displays, uh, and, uh, goodness knows what else to promote Rainbow history and the the the, um, celebration of it in New Zealand. So if anyone is interested in doing that, uh, get in touch with me through or someone else in LA and we'll see what we can set up because I think that it's the The more public we can be, [00:42:30] the more publicly facing, uh, we can be and proud of our history, uh, and really actively work to, um, surface this history, uh, so that people can see it. Uh, II, I think for better, it must be amazing to be in a group where, yes, there are shared experiences. But even the wording used to describe sexual and gender identities must be so different across all those different countries. And [00:43:00] the kind of legal and political landscape must be so different. And the kind of events that people are putting on must be so different as well. Must be quite, um quite invigorating. It is invigorating and really inspiring really inspiring. And I am extremely grateful that all the, um, the meetings, the board meetings that we have are conducted in English. Um, but when you consider that most of the members are from countries that do not speak [00:43:30] English as a first language Um, II I I'm I'm I feel incredibly privileged in a very privileged position to just sit back and think, Oh, this is I can understand every word that, uh whereas other people are managing are managing and succeeding brilliantly to articulate. Um, you know all sorts of things in a language which isn't their first language. And it makes me think Oh, you know, I've got English and a little bit of German. But to have such fluency, [00:44:00] you know, we are now on the 50th anniversary year of, um, deliberation in New Zealand. I'm wondering just as a final wrap up question. Where do you see as being in 50 years time in terms of rainbow queer communities? I hope by then we don't have capitalism is abolished by then my hope and then and then I see a much brighter I. I hope that uh, some kind of [00:44:30] indigenous led revolution. Decolonize New Zealand. No longer in New Zealand. I don't know what that means me being, but I'm just willing to follow the lead and be a foot soldier and and whatever that looks like, Um, so that's what I'm hoping happens. Something big like that. I think we'll summed it up perfectly on the add to that. Um, uh, [00:45:00] yeah, except that I would hope that in 50 years time Queer history, Rainbow History, Trans history is acknowledged. And as as, um celebrated and is out there as white Colonial history is Really, I think that if we can achieve that in 50 years time, then awesome, it's maybe more realistic than I would. And the last word I'm going [00:45:30] to go back to Jess because Jess has actually brought all of us together today with the, um, Queer Arts Festival. Jess, in 50 years time. Uh, where do you think Rainbow queer communities are going to be? Um, I'm just gonna echo will's call for revolution. That sounds great. Sign me up for that. I mean, I just like to be a nice, you know, elder, queer marvelling at the kids these days and how great they're doing.

IRN: 3487
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/fighting_for_our_lives.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004670
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093060
TITLE: Fighting for Our Lives: Trans Politics and the Working Class
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Elle Brocherie; John Ashborne; Kayden Scott; Tristan-Cordelia
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Elle Brocherie; John Ashborne; Kayden Scott; Online event; Queer Endurance / Defiance; Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); Tristan-Cordelia; Wellington Workers' Educational Association; oppression; trans; trans politics; trans visibility; transgender; transgender activism; transphobia
DATE: 12 May 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: Online event
CONTEXT: Audio from the online event hosted by Queer Endurance/Defiance and the Wellington Workers' Educational Association. A special thank you to the participants and organisers for allowing the event to be recorded and shared
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm truss. Um, from QED. Welcome to our talk. Um, the name of the talk today is fighting for our lives. Trans politics and the working class co-hosted by Queer Endurance Defiance and the Wellington Workers Educational Association. Um, anyway, so the purpose of this talk is to discuss how today in New Zealand the position of trans people is better than it's been in many generations, [00:00:30] but we have not achieved equality. And across the world, the gains of the struggle for trans rights are endangered, pushed back often into a state of affairs worse than what came before. We see violence and oppression redoubled. Why we believe trans oppression is intimately bound up with class oppression. And that is the thesis, as it were of the discussion today. Um, Caden and John from [00:01:00] Queer Endurance Defiance will speak on what Trans. This is where the arguments used to justify bigotry against trans people come from and why those arguments are wrong and the vital face of working class struggle for power in Trans people's fight for liberation. After our three speakers have each spoken, we will have an open, shared discussion, the idea being that anyone who wants to can speak for about two minutes. Um, if the [00:01:30] people in the open discussion have raised questions that we think need to be asked answered by the three speakers, they'll respond. Otherwise, we'll just kind of go around. Anyone having a couple of minutes to speak? We will ding ding ding at two minutes, but we won't, um, sort of try to cut him on off off for another minute. Um, just trying to give everyone time to speak, but also time to get through everyone who wants to speak, and and [00:02:00] that is that's essentially it. Um, So, having set the stage, I would now ask our first speaker kaon to take the call. Kilda, Everyone, I hope you can hear me. All right. I know there are some technical difficulties going on in the chat at the moment, but hopefully, um, they can figure that out. [00:02:30] All right? Good to know. Um, welcome to our discussion on trans rights and in relation to the working class struggle. My name is Kay. I am gender neutral and trans mascular. My pronouns are ZM, and he I will be doing a bit of a trans 101 rundown on what being trans means, which is informed by my own experiences as a trans person as well as [00:03:00] some help from other members of QED special. Thanks to Sarah Allison, who was originally going to do the speech but had to dip out due to work commitments. And she passed on her notes, which I didn't really use. But they did help me, um, build up my my speech in and get, uh, some form of, uh, inspiration. Um, I would also like to thank [00:03:30] gender minorities. Tera, uh, we aren't officially associated with them, but their work and resources have made gathering this information a lot easier. Um, I would also like to warn that some of these talks may be getting into some upsetting territory. Uh, for me, uh, I will be discussing some reclaimed slurs. Uh, LGBT. People have a history of taking words that are being used to delight us, wearing them as a badge of honour and out of respect [00:04:00] for the veterans of our community. I will not be shying away from using these terms as they are. I understand if this may be a bit too much for some people who have had these words used to harm them. Um, you are encouraged to take care of yourself. Take time away if you need. Your needs are important and your support and being here at all is still appreciated. Um, let's get into it. Trans is a broad umbrella term [00:04:30] that is meant to encapsulate the experience of people whose genders differ to what is recorded at time of birth. It is not gone through various um, terminologies, most commonly known now as transgender, which was first recorded in February 1993 in an article about Gay March in Washington. As a concept, though, trans and gender goes back further into the 19 sixties, [00:05:00] where in 1965 psychologist John F Ollivant Quins transgenderism to connote the urge for a gender or sex change. A Trans woman known as Virginia Prince would build upon the term more due to frustrations of the term transsexual being defined by medical and surgical procedures to change their bodies. She wanted something which encompassed more of her own experience as one [00:05:30] who dressed as a woman and lived full time as a woman without the intention of undergoing any surgery or hor hormonal therapy. She isn't without her controversy, though, as she seemingly upheld a lot of heterosexual and patriarchal beliefs. And she would often reject transsexuals and homosexuals, asserting that a true transvestite is a heterosexual who is comfortable [00:06:00] with their genitalia, which is not 100%. True, as, uh, trans people can be of any gender or of any genital reconfiguration or sexuality. It's really up to whatever person ends up being. That said, the modern history of Trans goes back even further to a German physician and sexologist Magnus Herd [00:06:30] of 18 68 to 1935 Magnus was quite the trail blazer for understanding, gay and Tread's identity. In the 20th century, Hirschfield pioneered the use of hormonal therapy and trans surgeries. He also coined the term transvestite in his book Dives in 1910, where he shares his research and discovery on trans and [00:07:00] gay people. Noting that not all transvestites were homosexual, Magnus worked extensively towards improving the understanding of gay trans and intersex people, as well as advocating for gender equality and reproductive rights, including abortions. He helped create one of the first films to sympathetically depict a gay couple, much of which was much of which, along with a lot of his work, was destroyed [00:07:30] by the Nazis in World War II. UM, he co founded and founded some of the first sex and gender rights organisations and regularly petitioned the German government to overturn laws which targeted sex and gender minorities. So I've talked a bit about the modern understanding of Trans and where some of the terminology came from. But I want to stress that this is just the modern understanding of [00:08:00] what transgender is, and it is also a Western understanding of what transgender is. There exists a vast history of trans identity throughout all of human history and in many different cultures. Some other cultures. Identity includes sister girls and brother boys from aboriginal communities in colonised Australia. These terms originally were created for use by trans aboriginal people in Australia, but has [00:08:30] expanded to encompass all other expressions of non standard genders and sexualities in the context of aboriginal cultures within Australia. Here in Aotearoa, we have Takata, which is a term recorded in early Maori dictionaries as early as 18 32 and defined as an intimate partner of the same sex, which has since expanded to include all expressions of non standard gender [00:09:00] and sexuality. That said, there are terms specifically for gender diverse Maori people, and I apologise in advance if I get any of this wrong. Um, for starters, uh, exists specifically as a real word for transgender and words like and or er, er, men and women, [00:09:30] uh, exist for men and women. There have also been words which include other Gedi diverse, um, experiences such as I know I know who. Uh, I I, Iraqi, Ira Hori and Tahini and I. I very much apologise for [00:10:00] screwing any of that up. I'm still learning my Rio. Um, I would also like to shed some light on other terms for trans experiences that don't come under the binary descriptors of men or women, um, or some which do, but only partially or as a mix of the two, or even both at the same time. Under the trans trans umbrella, there exists yet another umbrella term of non binary [00:10:30] or gender queer, though I also want to state that not all non binary or gender queer people identify as trans due to how complex both the experience of being trans and the experience of being outside gender norms and sexuality norms can be in, um, heterosexual dominated patriarchal society. Gender Queer is a term that has existed longer than non binary. [00:11:00] It really found its footing in the LGBT movements of the nineties and even eighties gender queer as a term that exists for all LGBT people with non normative expressions of gender to rally behind. In 1995 Ricky Anne Wilsons helped pop the term by saying, It's about all of us who are gender queer diesel dykes and stone butchers, leather queens and radical fairies, [00:11:30] Nelly fags, cross dressers, intersects transsexuals, transvestites, transgendered, transgressive gendered and those of us whose gender expressions are so complex they haven't been named yet. Gender Queer was a big part of reclaiming queer as a term used to harm LGBT people and instead as a term to empower us a term to rally behind and as a means to directly challenge patriarchal heterosexual norm. As for non binary, I [00:12:00] actually couldn't find an origin for its terminology, specifically in the time I had to put this speech together. But as of 2012 and the 14th of July international non binary day, was created so and to give some examples of gender queer expressions of gender, I'll now talk a little bit about some of the more well known terms. A gender is a term comprised of the Greek prefix A, [00:12:30] which means without thus it means to be without gender. Some other times you might hear typically come under on Come under. A gender is gender blank, gender free, genderless, gender void, non gendered, un gendered or null gender. In the late nineties, people typically called themselves un gendered, and it wouldn't be until the two thousands that a gender surfaced as a term. And in 2014 13th of February, a [00:13:00] gender became available as a custom gender on Facebook, and it also became available as a gender option on OkCupid on the 17th of November. Bi gender is defined as a mix of two genders or as both at once. There is also tri gender, which is very much the same with a third or poly gender. To go even further by gender isn't necessarily tied to the typical gender binary with the ways it manifests. That is to say [00:13:30] that it doesn't necessarily mean to be man and woman. It can instead be an expression of differing gender, queer genders or even of men or women with a gender queer gender. By gender, people can experience it either as both at the same time. Or maybe it fluctuates in a similar way to gender fluid. The term bi gender was first knowingly recorded in 1988 in abstracts of [00:14:00] a symposium on gender issues for the nineties. Demi gender is somewhat related to bi gender, as typically defined as a partial connection to a certain gender but also another gender. For example, there is a Demi girl or Demi woman for someone whose gender aligns partially with being a girl or woman or Demi guy or boy for people whose gender aligns with being partially a boy [00:14:30] or man, these terms exist regardless of whether the person's gender recorded at birth might be. One can be Demi gender, partially connected with their gender recorded at birth. Or they could be partially connected with trans womanhood or trans manhood. Uh, Demi guy and Demi Girl were added to the A VEN gender. Different missions Maslo list in 2010 on December 12th. Gender fluid is defined as an experience [00:15:00] of gender, which fluctuates. It is a dynamic mix of gender. The word gender fluid has existed since the nineties. One noted use of it was from Trans activist Michael M Herdez, who wrote Gender Fluid, means that means that their gender identity or expression encompassed both masculine and feminine. Gender fluidity is becoming commonly known as transgenderism, the ability to [00:15:30] transcend gender, whether biological, emotional, political or otherwise truly mixing male and female. Those who are gender fluid desire to be flexible about their expression of gender. They might experience multiple genders at the same time or can find themselves changing gender to gender at different moments in time. It's a lot about expression. From what I've personally experienced [00:16:00] myself as sometimes I have a little bit of fluidity in me. Um, is also known as, uh, neutral gender. It is an expression of neutrality, that of the binary man and woman. New Troy often comes in pretty close with age, gender, and some might even define that as neutrality towards gender as a lack of gender in the same vein so personally as [00:16:30] someone who is neutro myself. I tend to reject that association. I prefer the definition of, um, what a gender that isn't either male or female but just kind of exists in a neutral space. Um Troy is also typically a transsexual identity, meaning it is generally used by trans people who do seek a medical transition through hormones or surgery. But this is an absolute one can be Troy and not medically transition [00:17:00] at all. The word new Troy was created by H a Burnham in 1995. It is also recognised, much like a gender by Facebook in 2014 on the customizable genders list Trans Masculine and Transfeminine, These words are some more umbrella terms that come onto transgender. They can often be shortened to trans mask and trans fem. [00:17:30] They describe the transition pathway a trans person takes away from their gender recorded at birth, for example, I am trans masculine. My transition journey was one where I was recorded at recorded at birth as female, but I later transitioned into a more masculine presentation and began a medical transition where I take injections for testosterone to masculinize my body. Um, [00:18:00] it is also important to note that these terms do not necessarily mean one plans to medically transition, but many of us do. So in conclusion, I want to say that Trans folks have been here as long as gay and lesbian people have. We have always been here. We will always be here. We exist and matter as much as anyone else, even if personal, even if personally, you may not believe that [00:18:30] people can change gender or sex. It doesn't really matter, because we will still be here. And you can't make us go away. There will always be people challenging gender norms being weird with their expressions of gender and all that. It's part of the human condition. It's a part of human expression. We don't think of ourselves as being special. We would just like to exist safely, happily as everyone else. [00:19:00] Um, thank you for listening and to all who came and please stick around, uh, for El Up next. Um yeah. Thank thank you. That was amazing. Um, I just wanted to jump in and say for anyone who came in after my introduction. If you're not speaking, please mute your microphone so we don't get interference. Um, like we got just before. Sorry. That's all Good. Um Yeah, that was [00:19:30] basically it, Um, and on to, um I will, uh, make a note of anyone who raises their hands. Um, for the order of, um, open discussion after speech. Thank you, Chris. And thanks, Caden. Um, and thanks to the Wellington Workers Education Association for putting this together with us. Um, So Cayden [00:20:00] has talked about what Trans is and a bit about its history and what it's like to be Trans. Um, I'm going to talk some more about transphobia about what it is and why it exists and what its ideas are. In New Zealand, 20% of trans people experience homelessness in many cases as a result of being kicked out of home by family because of being trans, um, trans people in New Zealand face sexual violence at more than [00:20:30] twice the rate of the general population adjusted per gender. Trans women earn less on average even than CIS women do, and trans men earn less on average than sis men. We experience discrimination in health care access and in interactions with the police. Trans kids report bullying in schools at four times the rate of the general population. All of this results in high statistics of social disconnection, poverty, poor health outcomes and poor mental health. [00:21:00] This is to say that in New Zealand society, trans people are oppressed over and above the problems that most people, and particularly working people have in this world. Trans people have special kinds of problems put on us by society and the immediate cause of this. The reason why a parent would throw their child out of home for being trans or why someone would assault someone else for being trans. The immediate cause is transphobic ideas. Ideas that trans [00:21:30] people are worth less than other people are shameful or transgressing against some important standard, uh, maybe are dangerous to society, maybe should be punished. These ideas can be conscious or unconscious or somewhere in between. Often they are justified by religion. Trans people are an affront to God, or they're justified by traditional family values. The trans movement is an attack on the stability of the family, and increasingly, these days, transphobic political movements justify themselves [00:22:00] from a feminist angle. Patriarchal society forces women into transition into life as men by its sexist violence, and it encourages men to transition and live as women to appropriate women's social gains against sexism and commit violence. Conservative politicians now aren't just concerned with maintaining strong and healthy families. They are worried about the danger to women of male predators in women's spaces and the pressure on vulnerable girls to permanently [00:22:30] alter their bodies through transition to the more honest forms of bigotry. We can just say bullshit. We have rights. But to these appeals to justify 10 depression as the protection of women's rights, a bit more work is necessary to show what's going on. It is possible to not know much about clase issues. To hear these arguments and accept in good faith that cleans rights genuinely are dangerous to women. So I'll take some time to go into these arguments. [00:23:00] First of all, is it true that there is pressure on youth and particularly girls, to transition? We have good data that trans youth face higher rates of discrimination and prejudice both at home and at school, including hostility from family bullying from peers and resistance from teachers and school systems to accept social transition. So it seems unlikely there is any widespread pressure for transition sources. Meanwhile, access to transition related health [00:23:30] care poses difficulties for all trans people, but far more for youth. Access to puberty blockers, for example, is heavily restricted in most countries, including New Zealand, despite extensive research showing this treatment is safe and improves outcomes for trans use. So the medical system does not really apply pressure to transition in any meaningful sense, and it is unlikely looking at the oppression that trans men face in society and the background transphobia present in most social [00:24:00] circles, it's unlikely that girls should see transition as an escape from the experience of sexism, when transition more often results in an intensification of the experience of sexism in a new form, anti trans arguments often highlight the phenomenon of det transitions, particularly trans men. Who det transition. It's true that some studies show as many as 8% of trans people Det transitioning at some point in their lives. But the reasons [00:24:30] supported for det transition are overwhelmingly not regret about having transitioned but rather feeling unable to live as a trans person in a place of social circumstances. Only 5% of Det transition is report regretting having transitioned if we take the 8% estimate for total det transition numbers. This gives us 0. 4% 1 in 200 trans people Det transitioning because they regret having transitioned in the first place. This is not [00:25:00] a high number. Using the same stats, it would compare to 7. 6% of trans people, about one in 13 feeling forced or pressured to de transition by hostile circumstances and further in terms of medical care. We know that almost one in five trans people in New Zealand want hormones or puberty blockers, but have either been unable to access them or have not accessed them because of fears of discrimination. It is true that recently far more youth than previously have been taught in [00:25:30] schools or in homes that trans people exist. This is the result of increasing social awareness of trans people. To say that this amounts to pressure on Children to transition is to say that it is not safe for Children to know that trans people exist. There are people who have said that for a long time about gays and lesbians, but we don't see those people now as champions of the oppressed. OK, then so is it true that the social acceptance of trans [00:26:00] women as women hurts the fight for this woman's rights. Well, first, we have to acknowledge that trans women have been accepted as women for a long time, so long as we pass as sis. The games for women's rights of the last century have been won not just for sis Woman, but at least for a section of trans women, too. This is nothing new, but it's true that the modern trans rights movement is pushing for securing and legally protecting [00:26:30] trans women's social position as a woman. So what does this practically mean? Anti trans arguments run that this means bringing into the social group of a woman a great mass of privileged, potentially violent people. But according to most studies, trans women make no more than 1% of women, probably less and a 1% who, according to the statistics we have, are not visibly more violent than other women. But [00:27:00] on average, do suffer more violence than other women, including more sexual violence, and are paid less and employed at lower rates than other women and have worse health outcomes. So trans social acceptance means giving more of this particularly vulnerable 1% access to women's refuges, UH, forcing less of them as Children into boys schools, forcing less of them into men's prisons. And these are all places where trans women have [00:27:30] always been in some numbers. But mostly this means striking against the system of ideas, which justifies violence and discrimination against all trans people. And we can see that increases in social acceptance for trans people, including self ID laws, do not cooperate with increased violence against women or worse outcomes for women. Further, the movements, which achieve social [00:28:00] acceptance for trans people are often also involved in the fight for women's rights, for example, in Argentina, where trans groups were heavily involved in the recent victory for the right to abortion, and here, where many of the groups working for reproductive rights are also working for trans rights and vice versa. By contrast, ostensibly feminist anti trans activists in New Zealand have refused to take part in recent campaigns for reproductive rights and against sexist violence. Specifically because of these campaigns, [00:28:30] links to the Movement for Trans Rights in the US, the same conservative religious forces currently working to overturn Vo versus Wade, are campaigning against trans healthcare and social acceptance in Britain, the nerve centre of the anti trans feminist movement. Feminist anti trans groups have allied with conservatives in the attempt to overturn the legal principle of Gillet competence, which under British law allows minors to consent to the prescription of puberty blockers and [00:29:00] which also, under British law, allows minors to consent to abortion. OK, so I've talked about a few different transphobic arguments coming from quite different places. But there is a basic premise of transphobic thought, which is common between religious conservatives and fascists and anti trans feminists. And the basic premise is that the sex binary we see in society is stable and people's position [00:29:30] in it. The position we are given when we are born cannot be altered. Perhaps the social sex binary is rooted in biology, or perhaps in patriarchy, or perhaps in defined law. But by all of these views, the fact that a person's sex may actually change across their lives that they may go from life as a woman to life as a man or as an own binary person, or vice versa. This fits into the scheme only as something wrong, a mistake or a pretence of some kind. [00:30:00] Now. One argument we have against this is just well, we exist. Social sex does change other people's lifetimes, and the only problems this seems to cause come from people thinking it shouldn't Non binary people exist, including people who don't fit at all into either side of the social sex, binary. And again, the only problems this seems to cause are from trans phobia and intersex people exist. Most current science suggests that even excluding all [00:30:30] social elements of sex, the sex binary is more about common forms, with a lot of variation than a rigid opposition. But another argument we have against the idea of a rigid sex binary is to point to the range of extra binary sexes that have existed across the world throughout history. And this is something that Caden mentioned in his talk. One argument Trans Forbes make in the modern day is that Trans people are a recent and aberrant phenomenon produced [00:31:00] by the particular twisted of modern society. And to an extent, we can say yes, sexism has conditioned the whole modern sex system. Sis sex expressions are deeply bound up with it, of course. So are trans sex expressions. But What the trans verbs mean is that the sex binary was untroubled by deviations before the modern day. And that's just not true. There is extensive evidence for social forms diverging from [00:31:30] a sex binary not just in the modern day or in capitalist societies, but throughout human history and across the world. The Christian European colonists of the 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th centuries tended to share this view of the modern anti trans advocates that the sex binary was stable and without exceptions, or at least it should be. And they were shocked to find across Asia and Africa and the Americas and the Pacific, often quite respected and accepted [00:32:00] sexes within many different societies who were neither women nor men. This is not to say in all societies, but rather in some societies in all regions of the world. For example, the Hira, or Kawahara of the Indian subcontinent, the warrior of Indonesia and many different third sex traditions of the North American peoples, like uh, the In a Picasso and is is the Inuit Nic Elsewhere, the in [00:32:30] the the in, in in Uganda, the of the, uh, and in the Pacific, the Mau of Hawaii, the of Tahiti, the vaka of Fiji, the and of Tonga. Apologies for any mispronunciations there. All these, among many others, were and in many cases are now socially accepted. Sexes outside, the binary and the imposition [00:33:00] of European colonial rule often involve suppression of the sexes, just like the church in Europe suppressed peasant traditions of sex variance as going against the divine order of men and women. Now these extra binary sex forms are certainly not equivalent to modern trans. Many of them are associated with a religious function or are otherwise held in some social esteem. Only some of them include institutions of body modification, [00:33:30] and in some it is hard to make out where sex forms integrated with social life emerge among customs of virtual sex performance separated from the bulk of social life. But together with the data we have on modern sex diversity and on how these other cultural traditions of sex diversity interact with modern trans, we can say that as well as humans, showing a tendency towards forming at least a loose social sex binary. Over the last several 1000 years, [00:34:00] humans have also shown over this whole span a tendency towards forming social sex forms outside a binary, and this has been not always but often in stabilised social forms. Trans people are just the latest manifestation of this tendency, specifically the manifestation of this tendency in the circumstance of the mass foible suppression of its traditional expressions. [00:34:30] I talked a lot about transphobic ideas and counterpoints to them, but we don't just need to argue against these ideas in our own circles. That's important. But we also need to fight transphobia politically as a movement. That is the only way we've attained social recognition and the rights that we have. It is the only way we are going to defend and extend these rights, and for that we need strategy on the basis of sound analysis. We [00:35:00] need to understand not just what Transphobia looks like and what immediate forms it takes, but where it comes from and why it is reproduced and what it is not just in an ideological sense, but socially. It seems pretty clear that the function of transphobia in this society is to justify and maintain the social structure of a rigid sex binary, in which women are oppressed and controlled against the actual fact of sexes outside and [00:35:30] part of meaning this binary, and this has a logic to it. There is nothing about trans people that sets us against the basic social order of capitalism. Personally, we don't threaten you interest of the ruling classes we want to assimilate. And we see in the modern day that great strides can be made towards a reintegration in society without any damage to ruling class poverty or real change in how society works. But by existing, we [00:36:00] damage the ideology of binary sex system, which legitimises the oppression of women. And, of course, to control reproduction is a key prerogative of any class which gets its living off a labour force. This is being acted out in the United States as we speak, we see it around the world, and it was unfolding in the early agricultural societies where the religious codes of women's inferiority were born. So what we are fighting [00:36:30] has material roots that go very deep, and that raises important questions for our strategy because clearly we can achieve gains for trans rights within the current social system, and we must struggle for these gains. But it also seems like Transphobia is very deeply involved with our social system in a way that brings equality beyond the scope of just the and [00:37:00] I will leave that discussion to John. Thank you. Thanks. That was that was excellent. And just a reminder to anyone who's coming in late. Please mute your microphones if you're not speaking because we've had a little bit of voice at the end of both of those speeches. I'm so sorry is on. I'll turn it off. That's right. Thank you so much. Um, so I'm going [00:37:30] to hand over to John now. I'm just going to have to briefly, um, drop out for about 30 seconds, because Spiro does that. So I'm going to leave the other Spiro chair in my absence. I will be back in about 30 seconds. Um, John, before it's yours. Thank you, Tris. And thanks. Also, Kate and and hi, everybody. Um, my name is currently John, but I'm thinking of changing it, [00:38:00] and I am a supporter of the international Bolshevik tendency. Uh, Caden has spoken to the nature of Trans and L has talked about the various manifestations and ideas of transphobia. The question I'm going to speak to is essentially finishing the title of our forum. Uh, what is the connection between trans liberation and the struggles of the working class? So to answer this question, we need to talk about the relationship between [00:38:30] queerness and class society, as well as the relationship of those things with the capitalist state. Now it is true that queer liberation struggles have in recent decades made strides against depression within the framework of the capitalist state. But as we can see from recent anti queer reactions in places like the US and Britain and many other countries, these gains are fragile and reversible. And it's interesting to note the crossover [00:39:00] between reactions against queer people and against women's liberation. Most anti trans groups are also anti abortion. For instance, uh, anti trans campaigners in the US will openly link their campaign to the fight against bodily autonomy and reproductive rights. Turfs are sneakier about it, but as Elle mentioned, they're happy to throw women onto the bus to get at trans people. This confluence of anti rands and antiwomen politics points to these oppressions having [00:39:30] the same root. But what is this route? Um, Marxism locates the basis of social oppression and material causes. So what need does trans oppression serve materially? It is the maintenance of the nuclear family. At the Marxist view of the family under capitalism is that it is a vehicle for producing the next generation of workers, a structure in which property is passed down the generations an incubator of bourgeois [00:40:00] ideology and a system that subjugates women to unpaid domestic labour. The family is the main social institution of women's oppression. The social superiority of man over woman but baked into the family is the division of humanity into man and woman on grounds of their perceived role in human reproduction and the subjection of both men and women to the need to reproduce to ensure the smooth [00:40:30] generational transition, transmission of private property and the production of new generations of workers and consumers. To keep the system going, individual autonomy must be subordinated to the socioeconomic need. Hence the oppression of queer people whose lives and needs require alternatives to this strict system. And trans people, who both represent an alternative to the family and threaten the binary division of humanity [00:41:00] on reproductive lines, are doubly oppressed. The nuclear family didn't always exist as mentioned. It was pushed on the workers of Europe and imposed on the colonised world at gunpoint specifically because it is the most favourable relationship structure for capitalism's needs. Historically, the trans struggle has been against forces seeking to trap people within these confines. A right wing obsession with Trans men's fertility is a good [00:41:30] example of this. Anti trans bigotry and violence is cruelty for its own sake, but it is also meant to discourage others from taking the same road. Now there are those who look to the existing capitalist state to protect trans people from this violence to uphold their material conditions and guarantee equal rights. And some countries, usually forced by collective action, have improved the conditions of trans people. [00:42:00] The question is, is it possible to carry these reforms through to a place where trans people are actually free, equal and safe from persecution under the capitalist state? Well, to answer that, we need to consider what the state is and whose interest it serves. Marxists regard the state as an instrument of class, rule the mechanism through which a ruling class formalises and maintains [00:42:30] power over one or more subject classes in capitalism. The ruling class is the capitalist class, or bourgeoisie. Capitalists own the productive forces of society, or means of production as their private property. The capitalist state is the tool they use to oppress and exploit. The working class workers own no productive forces and must work for the capitalists or starve. The state [00:43:00] passes laws which guarantee capitalist rights to own private property and uses armed force, the police but also the army and prison guards, and so forth to keep the working class from appropriating property or power for themselves. Capitalists need to exploit workers to make a profit. But because workers material needs are opposed to capitalists best interests, they need the state to keep workers in line, often through violence. So [00:43:30] the capitalist class uses the state to shape society in its own interests, which includes fostering the family model so workers keep reproducing and creating more workers to exploit. Social progress in bourgeois society usually comes from mass movements of the working class, oppressed minorities or both, pressuring the state to pass reforms which go against capitalist class interests. These reforms are good things, and Marxists should defend them. [00:44:00] But every one of them is a balance between the opposed interests of the capitalists who control society and the people and groups who forced them to make the change. Thus they approach equality but never quite reach it, because a truly equal society is incompatible with the private ownership of the means of production by a privileged few. Queer acceptance is one such reform, and like all reforms, it is unfortunately [00:44:30] only partial. It represents an uneasy truce between the rights of queer people and the needs of capitalists. Queer people can exist openly, so long as they can be exploited like everyone else, conform to bourgeois norms and don't challenge bourgeois social structures, including the family. The more we exist outside those confines, the fewer rights and protections we have. The gains we make under capitalism [00:45:00] will thus never be complete. They can only ever be partial. But this isn't our only problem. Last week, as you will all have heard, the news broke that Roe, V Wahed and thus the American right to an abortion, which was long thought. A settled argument by many liberals will likely be overturned soon. We should take from this impending disaster that concessions granted under the pressure of mass political mobilizations are always subject to reversal [00:45:30] when a different configuration of social forces arises. The struggle against sexism, like the battle against transphobia, or racism or any other form of social oppression, can never be finally victorious under capitalism, because the maintenance of privilege and inequality is an inevitable corollary to private monopoly of the means of production. That isn't to say meaningful reforms under capitalism aren't possible, only that they aren't sustainable. [00:46:00] Reforms represent inefficiencies in the capitalist system and that they make society less profitable for capitalists. But the high, productive base of technology and capitalism leaves room for some inefficiency. However, when the profitability of that system is in crisis, and between the war in Ukraine, covid and climate change, there are major crises looming. These reforms start to look like dead weight, but capitalism [00:46:30] has means of resolving this problem. Crisis periods breed fascism, the mass mobilisation of the petty bourgeoisie that is micro scale capitalists like small business owners, small farmers and self-employed sole traders whose businesses are normally the first to collapse in an economic crisis, as well as disaffected backward sections of the working class to stabilise capitalism by violently stamping out any rogue elements that exist in contradiction [00:47:00] with capitalism's basic needs. The various fascism of last century had many differences, but they were united by a commitment to rigid enforcement of capitalist norms against what they perceived as moral and social decay, including the strict embrace of the family weaponized against the independence of women and the existence of queer people. Modern fascists share this drive, too. The existing capitalist [00:47:30] state is not only incapable of stopping fascism in the long term, it is unwilling everywhere. Fascists have historically come to power. They have done so with the connivance of the capitalist class, which controls the state. This class sees fascism as a means of solving its difficulties and forcing order on a rest of populace in the grip of social crisis. No matter what reforms we win from it, the capitalist [00:48:00] state will always be more compatible with social forces that want trans people gone. Queer oppression is baked into the bones of capitalism, and since the capitalist state ultimately def exists to defend the capitalist system, it can never be relied on to defend our rights. It cannot be permanently reformed into a configuration that will protect us from fascism. In the long run, it must be smashed. But who [00:48:30] will do the smashing? The only force to ever halt fascist advance is the organised working class in 19 thirties France and Britain. Mass movements of workers beat the fascists before they could take power well. In Russia, the Bolsheviks crushed an attempted fascist coup on the path to the October revolution. The overthrow of capitalist state power by the working class, the establishment of workers [00:49:00] power in Russia dealt a terrible blow to the family, granting it a stroke. The legal emancipation of women. Soviet Russia was the first state in Europe to decriminalise abortion, while the revolutionary government worked hard at freeing women from the kitchen and laundry by socialising, childcare and domestic labour. But it was also the first state in the world to decriminalise homosexuality, making the workers state the most advanced state in the world for queer rights. For a [00:49:30] time, many gay people lived open lives in Soviet Russia, while doctors studied trans people scientifically and were optimistic about a future in which medical sex change was possible. Though the techniques were wildly beyond them at the time, it was by no means a utopia, and there was a lot of controversy about it. But for the time, it was extraordinarily progressive. Now the Bolsheviks ultimately did not spark a world revolution that would have overthrown [00:50:00] class society altogether, which was their objective. The workers took power, but they could not keep it while they overthrew capitalism. Russia was too isolated and economically underdeveloped to build the material basis for an equal society which hollowed out workers democracy and eventually brought Stalin to power. As the working class lost control of political power under Stalinist counter revolution, many of these gains were reversed, including queer rights. [00:50:30] Nevertheless, the fact that the early Bolshevik assault on the family came with attempts towards gay and trans liberation far earlier than in the West, even though the Bolsheviks themselves did not initially plan for this demonstrates the link between Socialists, struggle against family structures and the liberation of queer people. Freeing the Soviet workers from the grip of forced reproduction directly opened the road to struggle against compulsory heterosexuality [00:51:00] and sickness. When Stalin reinstated the family's central place in Soviet society, he placed those shackles back on the working class. Our task as revolutionaries in the modern day is to finish the job. The Bolsheviks started to build a World Workers Party with a revolutionary programme that can ignite global revolution and smash capitalism for good. The destruction of capitalist power and the seizure of economic control by the working class [00:51:30] will create the conditions for a democratically planned global economy that will give all humans an equal share of prosperity and thereby eliminate class division. In human society. Trans people are as old as humankind, but the oppression of trans people is as old as class society itself. Only through the struggle to overturn class society will trans people realise their own emancipation. But the fight to eradicate class [00:52:00] society is the fight to eradicate the material basis of class society, the system of private property and all its revolting extrusions, including the family and the norms and mores that enslave us to domestic servitude and the need to reproduce. And so the fight for trans liberation is inextricable from the fight for socialism as a final thought. The aim of a revolutionary society is ultimately the full autonomy and development [00:52:30] of the individual, free of social coercion and control. We cannot know what concepts like sex, gender or sexuality will look like under communism. As our understanding of those concepts is limited by the material condition of our society, we therefore can't know what trends or people in the future will look like. Our task is to fight for the world in which they're free to define that for themselves. Ultimately, this can only be a revolutionary [00:53:00] struggle. Thank you. That was all.

IRN: 3485
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/transgender_health_panel_discussion_2021.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004648
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093059
TITLE: Transgender Health Panel Discussion
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ahi Wi-Hongi; Amanda Burgess; Bex Canner; Jemima Bullock; John Fenaughty
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Ahi Wi-Hongi; Amanda Burgess; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bex Canner; Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Act 2021; COVID-19 (coronavirus); Census (2018); Claire Ryan; Counting Ourselves (survey, 2019); District Health Board (DHB); Evolve Wellington Youth Service; Gender Minorities Aotearoa (GMA); General Practitioner (GP); Human Rights Act (1993); Jemima Bullock; John Fenaughty; Manatū Hauora Ministry of Health; Ministry of Housing and Urban Development (HUD); New Zealand Society of Endocrinology; Orchidectomy; Professional Association for Transgender Health Aotearoa (PATHA); Rainbow Wellbeing Legacy Fund; Rawa Karetai; Statistics New Zealand; Transgender Day of Visibility; United Kingdom; University of Auckland; Wellington; Youth 19 Survey; anti discrimination; autism; birth control; bullying; census; chest binder; cisgender; consent; de-transition; deadname; depression; disability; disability rights; discrimination; estrogen; facial hair; facial hair removal; free health care; funding; gender affirming healthcare; gender characteristics; gender diverse; gender identity; gender inclusive language; hair removal; health care; health funding; health navigator; health system; homelessness; hormone replacement therapy (HRT); housing; human rights; hysterectomy; identity documents; income disparity; intersex; invisibility; kindergarten; marriage; marriage certificate; marriage equality; marriage records; mastectomy; medicalisation; mental health; misgendering; neurodiversity; non-binary; parental consent; peer support; primary school; pronouns; puberty blockers; public health; rainbow refugee; re-transition; refugee; self determination; self harm; self identification; sex characteristics; suicidal; support; surgeon; surgery; surgery backlog; testosterone (T); top surgery; trans; transgender; transphobic violence; youth
DATE: 31 March 2021
YEAR: 2021
LOCATION: Manatū Hauora Ministry of Health, 133 Molesworth Street, Thorndon, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the transgender health panel discussion, held on International Transgender Day of Visibility, 31 March 2021. The event was recorded at the Ministry of Health in Wellington. A special thanks to the organisers and participants for allowing this event to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh uh uh called Burgess, Uh uh called Amanda. Uh, welcome, everyone. Um, I'm Amanda Burgess. Um, my pronouns are she, uh I hail from the beautiful Taranaki. Um, but I've lived in Wellington for more than 20 years, and I currently work in the mental health, uh, policy team here at the ministry. Um, I'm facilitating, uh, this, uh, transgender health panel discussion today. We've [00:00:30] got a fantastic, um, panel of experts in the field. Um, I'm gonna invite them to introduce themselves now, uh, and then I'll just cover a few little stats, but I don't want to take anything away from what they're saying. And then we're gonna the panel are all gonna, um, present, um, sort of the three biggest, um, issues for transgender health that they see. And then we can move into some, um, facilitate questions and questions from the audience. So if you could tell us your name pronounce if you wish to where you're from and where in New Zealand you live now, starting at the [00:01:00] other end. Um, I'm a, um, the national coordinator of Gender Minorities. A, which is the national transgender organisation. Um, and we operate on a, um you know, public health, cup of Maori public health framework. Um, I Where I where I'm from and my pronouns um I was born in the Waikato and I've lived in Wellington for about 14 years. I think, um, and [00:01:30] I use pronouns. OK, my name is Bex Kenner. I am a GP. I work at Evolve Youth Service. Um, I I'm originally from the U. SI came to Wellington a couple of years ago from South Otago, and I use they them pros. I think that's, um my name is Kate. I am the community liaison [00:02:00] at gender minorities of, um and I work with a range of groups and responsibilities there. Um, I am from the hut and have tried living in other cities, but like Wellington better so I always come back. Uh, my name is John. I'm I actually am from, um, originally out on the West Coast. But I now live in Auckland. Um, and I'm at the University of Auckland, [00:02:30] and I'm here with a youth 19 youth, 2000 hat on today. Uh, my name is Jemima Bullock. Um, and I am born and bred Wellington. Um and I use she her pronouns um, and I'm a psychologist here at CC DH B. But cover the the three DH BS. Um, and I'm based in the endocrine department. So I work with young people 16 and up, wanting to go on to hormones. [00:03:00] Um, so right, I'm just gonna traverse a few a few stats about the trans and non-binary population. Um, and then, um, throughout, um, each Panelist's talk. We'll invite them to bring other stats to our attention, Um, in relation to transgender health. Um, so we don't currently know the exact size of the trans and non gender non-binary population in New Zealand. Um, as the data is not collected currently in the census, um, estimates through a variety of, um, uh, research show people with diverse [00:03:30] sexual orientation, gender identity and sex characteristics is between six and 15% of the population of New Zealand. Um, the county survey is quite a defining survey. Um, of this population undertaken in 2018, uh, has a copy over here. Um, so about a third of the survey participants, um, had avoided seeing a doctor because they were worried about disrespect or mistreatment as a trans or non-binary person. Um, two [00:04:00] thirds of the participants had experienced discrimination at some point. Um, and 71% is just as tragic of those surveyed reported high or very high psychological distress, Um, compared to only 8% of the general population in New Zealand. Um, so it's just a little bit of set the scene. Um, stats. I'm gonna ask each panel member now to to talk us through, um, the three biggest, um, issues for trans health that they that they see. So we're going to start with a at the end. Thank you. [00:04:30] Um, I think as a coordinated bunch, hopefully we'll cover. Hopefully, we'll cover those, Um, because the three biggest there, there are so many. There are so many, um, health inequities for trans people. And also lots of them are caused by wider social inequities. Discrimination in housing, um, you know, and education across the board. So many different areas. So, um, it's very hard to have to live a healthy life and to have what you need when, um when you you know, the median income of trans people is [00:05:00] only half the median income of the general population, and one in five are homeless at some point in their life. And that figure is one in two if they're not white. So it's really like it's it's really serious stuff. Um, so what? I want to talk about my my three, my three little points, and I'm gonna try and keep it. Keep it Not too long. Um, the first one is puberty blockers. Um, this is one of the first treatments that lots of trans people are wanting. Um, when they're younger, puberty blockers aren't sex hormones. They just a pause on your puberty. [00:05:30] So they're very much like a contraceptive and that, um if you take a contraceptive, you know, it might pause your periods, and that is quite a big deal. It is something that's really affecting your you know what your hormones would otherwise be doing to your body. But if you, um, and if you stop taking contraceptives, periods come back. So puberty blockers are very safe, they're fully reversible. And if we know that, if, um that if young people can't get access to contraceptives and they don't have very good health outcomes, they really need [00:06:00] to have that. Um it's like really essential that there's not barriers to younger people being able to get contraceptives. And it's very similar with puberty blockers, um, young people who, if they can't get puberty blockers, then they're having to go through really permanent, irreversible changes that their body is taking them through without without their ability to have a say in it. So I think we see puberty blockers as something that really needs to move into a harm reduction framework much like contraception, so [00:06:30] that young people don't have barriers, um, and can access those things. Uh, as soon as they need them. Um, I think the the next thing is a little bit of a smaller thing in a lot of ways, but it makes a really big deal for lots of people. Um, which is that the small expenses that Trans people need to cover are huge expenses to them. So what I'm actually talking about is, um, binders and facial hair removal. [00:07:00] So binders are like, um, like medical prosthetics that people use to flatten their chest if they have breasts and they don't want to have them and they can't get access to surgeries to, um, fix that so we get gender. Minorities gets about 400 requests a year for free binders from people who can't afford to buy their own. So that's quite you know. That's quite significant. And for them they can't afford it. And and maybe the cost is $60 [00:07:30] or $100. But you know, people are in really desperate situations, and sometimes that's from families who are saying, Look, we've got six kids. We can't afford to buy one of them the $60 item. Um, but they are a medical, you know. They're a medical item, and they should be really covered by DH BS. Or potentially they could be covered centrally by the Ministry in the same way that wigs and hairpieces are covered for cancer patients who need them. Um, yeah, that cost can't be on the individual. And it can't be on the community organisations [00:08:00] because, um, we're not funded for that. Um, and the other thing is facial hair removal, which is probably the most common medical treatment that Trans women need. Uh, and it could be a really big safety issue if they can't get rid of hair on their face. And I think probably most women would, you know, would suffer really greatly. If they had a lot of facial hair growing, that's really, really important. Um, it might cost about $2000 per person to get that done. That's a lot of money for an individual, but it's not a lot of money for a really effective health [00:08:30] treatment that's been proven to work well. So we'd like to see, like, currently no DH BS provide that. But we'd like to see that taken as a, um, as a something that needs to be done. Um, and the last thing nobody's given me a time card, so I'm just gonna keep going. That's the last thing Um, that I will talk about is, um, the genital reconstruction surgeries, which probably is the most kind of common commonly known about one. [00:09:00] there was no surgeon from 2014 to 2018. So we have There was already quite a big backlog. So there's what, A few years ago, the waiting list for those genital reconstruction surgeries was 40 to 50 years. At the rate that they were going, it's now down to about 10 years, so that's like a really good you know, that's a really good progress. But also waiting list shouldn't be longer than six months for any surgeries and which, realistically, sometimes they are about 10 years is ridiculous. Um, so [00:09:30] we do have a a surgeon now, and she's a private surgeon, and she's contracted by the ministry to do about 16 surgeries a year. So, yeah, with a waitlist over 200 patients, it's still quite a big wait. Um, it needs to be funded to actually meet the demand. So that means clearing the waiting list of 200 odd patients and then possibly 16 surgeries a year is adequate. And we don't really know because it's, um, because it's been inaccessible for so long. People haven't been able to apply and that sort of thing. So So there's a little bit of a guess [00:10:00] work there, but it needs to be funded to meet the need. We know that due to covid, lots of people who would otherwise travel overseas for all kinds of different surgeries haven't been able to. So that means they're all in New Zealand getting surgeries done here, which means that the theatres are booked private surgeons, you know, like there is so much surgery that are not related to train stuff necessarily that's being done here. Now there is no theatre time and lots of across the country, so it's quite a, um, it's quite a [00:10:30] big hold up on getting surgeries done. But, um, there needs to be more support around making sure that that can happen. We know that the surgeon is very, very competent, and she's, um, like at the moment. So I'm going, I'm going off track. But there's also, um, people need to have, like, 10 months, maybe of, uh, permanent hair removal done in their genital area if they're gonna get genital reconstruction surgery. So there's a weight on for doing that, and that is funded through the ministry. [00:11:00] So that's awesome. But it doesn't get reimbursed until after the surgery happens, which means that at the moment the surgeon has to pay for that out of her pocket and at 2000 ish, maybe dollars per patient. That's $32,000 that you know, if a surgeon has to pay as an individual $32,000 to get the patient's health care, that system isn't working, so there needs to be like a lot more In-depth thought about how that process works. And [00:11:30] probably the best person to have a, um, to have a clear view of what that looks like as the surgeon. Um, but yeah. So So we we think that that really needs a whole lot more work done on it. Um, yeah, I'll stop there and pass it on to thank you. Um, So, um, first of all, I'd like to say that this should be required reading it is online counting ourselves dot NZ. Um, OK, so, [00:12:00] II, I like stories. Um, it's part of my job as a GP to listen to people's stories. So I've written a little story to hopefully illustrate what I think are the main points. Um, So it's the case of Max. This is a fictional story, but it could be anyone. Max is a teenager who identifies as non binary, neither male or female, but was assigned female at birth. Max has found puberty very distressing, especially breasts and periods, which are constant reminders of their gendered body, which don't doesn't align with their identity. [00:12:30] So, Max ask their parents to take them to the GP to do something about the periods. Max finds this a distressing experience from start to finish. In addition to the misgender and dead naming, they have unfortunately become accustomed to in their daily life. They are surrounded by pamphlets clearly addressed to cisgender and usually heterosexual people. Information about birth control shows pictures of men and women and says things like This method prevents pregnancy in 99. 9% of women or is especially good for women with heavy periods. Nowhere [00:13:00] does Max find anything about people like them, or what they need to know about birth control or safer sex. If, for example, they started having sex with their girlfriend, Alice, who is a Trans woman, Max is given a prescription for the pill and notices that it is made out in their dead name. If Max were to ask for this to be changed, they might be told it can't be done in the system or they need to legally change it first, neither of which are true. They are also told that the only options for gender are male, female, unknown or indeterminate, [00:13:30] which is true in the MedTech system. Most GPS use Max is 17. They and Alice decide to go to evolve because they're lucky enough to live in Wellington. Max wants top surgery. They're sick of binding their large breasts, and they're having a lot of neck and back pain. They are told that a they have to wait until they're 18 and B for a brief moment in 2020. The surgery was available in the public system in this DHB, but due to a lack of personnel, there is no current capacity. Their GP was told they would be notified [00:14:00] when the service is available again. The GP is sceptical of that actually happening. As it turns out, Alice asks about an orchidectomy, a simple procedure to remove their testicles. She received the same answer. It has been publicly funded, but now the urology department does not have the capacity and procedures are on hold. Max and Alice, of course, do not have the funds to pay privately for these surgeries. Now, let's say Max and Alice, sick of the dismal job prospects and cost of living in Wellington, moved to rural Southland [00:14:30] to work on a dairy farm. The anxiety of even finding a trans friendly GP is enormous, let alone ones who understand. They then pronouns. They travel several hours to Dunedin, where there are at least some GPS who are up to speed. But accessing hormones and surgery is a whole different kettle of fish. The GP doesn't even know what the process is or where to find that information. And to top it off, they find that MedTech is not a national record system, so they have to explain their name, gender and pronouns again. [00:15:00] One time Max sprained their ankle at work and had to go to a local rural health centre, where, trying to explain that their gender and pronouns was met with confusion and basically ignored. The doctor asked irrelevant and probing questions that had nothing to do with their ankle. And they were given information about a medication that said it should be used with caution by pregnant or breastfeeding women. Max and Alice both became very depressed, even suicidal. They have trouble accessing trans affirming mental health services and are faced [00:15:30] with the difficult choice of returning to Wellington, where they have some chance of accessing care that is affirming and inclusive of their genders, but where they cannot afford to live. How are we going to help people like Max and Alice. Well, my three recommendations and there are many more. First, the system needs to be changed. There needs to be clear. Guidelines and pathways across DBS, urban and rural and resources, money and workforce need to be allocated equitably. It systems need [00:16:00] to be changed. Gender options expanded correct naming and gender pronouns and name need to be easily accessed by GPS and hospital systems throughout the country. I forgot to add that the GP system MedTech does not coordinate with any of the hospital systems which are all different, and don't coordinate with any other ones. Either. GPS need to be supported to learn at least the basics of how to make their practises inclusive and where to go for information about referrals and guidelines. And this needs to start at the medical school [00:16:30] level. And actually I think I went to four. Sorry, all health information and communications needs to be written using gender inclusive language IE addressed to all genders and all sexual orientations. So this is just a brief overview of the challenges and inequities trends and non-binary people face in navigating health care in a and from the perspective of someone who has, as we say, been on both sides of the stethoscope. We, uh the system really needs to change. Thank you. Thank [00:17:00] you very much. Great. Cool. So we we spent some time whittling down our collective sex statements between A and I from about 10. Um, and I'm really glad that some of the ones we decided to leave out have just come up in X's statement, Um, and very eloquently expressed. So those are there are some really good and important stuff in there. Um, but for my three things, the first one I'm going to speak to is informed consent, [00:17:30] which is a very important part of what we've got in the, um, the guidelines for gender affirming health care. Um, which is essentially that Trans people should be in a position to make their own decisions about their own health care. Trans people should have access to all of the information they need to make those informed decisions. And then when they make those when they make decisions about what, um, kind of gender affirming healthcare they want to access [00:18:00] the doctors should be should recognise that that intent and that expertise and just give it to them. Essentially. Um, so we've got we We often hear examples of people who are having that informed consent denied to them. Um, so we've heard from transwomen who've been told to go away and learn how to be more feminine before they're allowed to access. Um, H RT. Um it's been very common for a long time [00:18:30] for people to go to to want to access, um, gender affirming surgeries like top surgeries, and be told that they need to take H RT first. And they don't actually want to take H RT. That shouldn't be a decision that's forced on them. Um, what else have we got here? Uh, and also the the endocrine society guidelines say that the the which is a level of oestrogen in your blood for transwomen [00:19:00] should be up to 730. But we've got a system where it seems that nationwide doctors are keeping transwomen on less than 200. Um, and because the trans women aren't doctors, the doctors aren't respecting their opinion, even though it's perfectly well researched and quite educated. Um, we're coming up against barriers and getting access to the levels we want to have And also, uh, never mind. I'll [00:19:30] finish there. I could go on all day. Um, so the second thing I wanted to speak to was funding for community support. Um So there's an overwhelming tendency for funders, including government funders. To consider trans health care issues is part of rainbow issues, which means that over and over again, we see the funding that is getting put aside to address the really important and massive health inequities that Trans people have is going to sled [00:20:00] rainbow organisations, um and then for what they decide to do with the money. The trans stuff is a really small priority. Often, um so in the northern DH B, there's peer support funding which goes to rainbow organisations which are led. Um, and a peer led organisation would be much better set up to provide that peer support. Um, when counting ourselves was released, the government established the Rainbow Legacy Well-being [00:20:30] Fund. Um, 21% of the people are represented in granting ourselves a youth, and 100% of the people in that study are trans. Yet the Rainbow Legacy Well-being Fund is for young rainbow people, so it's quite misdirected. And where that funding is going and what it's actually being spent on. Um, yeah, And unless the funders are prepared to listen to trans people when we bring this up, then they're not going [00:21:00] to get that information. And we know that when the more broad rainbow orgs apply for funding, they are all and counting ourselves and the inequities that Trans people are facing and yet still very little of the funding goes to peer led trans organisations. It isn't to say that funding for youth and funding for more broad rainbow issues isn't really important because obviously, we acknowledge that those things have real value too. [00:21:30] Um, but unless the funding is going to peer, lead trans orgs, you're not gonna see the same kind of change in the health outcomes. Um, and the final thing I had to talk about, um and I appreciate that I'm speaking to, uh, the the Ministry of Health, which is centralised authority. And the ask is directed at DH BS. Um, so there's a bit of a disconnect there, but [00:22:00] it's a really big issue for for us, um, that we need to see gender affirming surgeries going ahead. Um, we need to see DH BS prioritising them. Um, and this isn't talking about bottom surgery, which does have centralised funding through the Ministry of Health. This is for mastectomies, chest reconstructions, breast augmentations, hysterectomies and orchectomy. Um, which are vital gender affirming health care, um, procedures [00:22:30] that we're just not seeing happening through out most of the country. Um, and the places where it is happening, the capacity is not equal to the demands. And all of these surgeries are surgeries that are accessible to assist people that the pathways are already established. The surgeon. The surgeries are already established. There's people doing the surgeries. Um, there's theatres dedicated to them. Um, but there's just no pathway for trans people [00:23:00] to access them. And we need to see the DH BS establishing those We need to see the DH BS acknowledging the the level of demand and finding the capacity to meet it. Cool. Great. Thank you very much. Kate. John, take it away. Um, So, um, thank you to my fellow panellists. It's really wonderful to be here. Um, I'm going to be presenting some of the data that's in some of the fact [00:23:30] sheets that are moving around. Um just a little plea. Um, please don't share those stats yet. We're doing a media release sometime in the next, um, fortnight after Easter. Um, and so we'd like to, um, kind of really try and make that, um, really pop when we do that. So, uh, my, uh, thanks to you for not sharing that or tweeting or tiktok it, um, whatever you might try and do, um, that would be awesome. But what you'll see there is, um, some of the stats from the latest youth 19, [00:24:00] uh, survey, which is a representative survey of secondary school age students. Um, across a, um, and what that demonstrates is, um, conservatively. 1% of those students say they identify as being trans or non-binary, and 0. 6% of them say that they are currently unsure about their gender identity. So that's roughly about, um, 16, Um, about yeah, 11. 6%. [00:24:30] Um, in total of those students are identifying in some way around the the transgender non-binary umbrella. Um, what's interesting is that the numbers of those students we asked them about when they started to identify in a way that might be congruent with that identity. And 75% of them said that was before they were 14 years of age. Um, I guess then, um, some of the ask, uh, from my perspective will be around what we're doing [00:25:00] in, um, early care for young people, how we're working with, um, kindergartens, primary schools to create, uh, places that are safe for young trans people Come, what's also interesting, um, in relation to, um, informed consent and, uh, parental consent is that only a third of our participants have disclosed their gender identity to their parents. And, um and that has major implications. [00:25:30] When you think about some of the stuff that's been happening in the UK recently around requirements of parental consent for access to hormone blockers, um, which is something I think is very scary. Um, the findings, um, in the surveys, um, also show, um, that unfortunately, the majority of these students are experiencing unsafe environments in school. Um, nearly five times as many more Trans and non-binary participants reported experiencing weekly bullying [00:26:00] at school compared to cisgender peers. Um, and also, uh, nearly twice as many said that they felt unsafe in their neighbourhoods and that very much talks to those ideas that a he was mentioning about the additional stress and strain that faces transgender non-binary young people as per se. Um, and what that means is that, um, we're seeing incredibly high rates of, um of symptoms of depression, um, and self-harm and [00:26:30] suicide attempts. Um, in terms of depression and self-harm, those are both over 50% for the trans and non-binary young people in our study. And, um, the the a quarter of the participants reported a suicide attempt in the past year, Um, which compared to just 6% for the cisgender peer group. So we are seeing that real sharp end coming in around, um the the results of, uh, a sort of oppressive environment for these young [00:27:00] people, I guess what that means, then, is that, um, from a health ask talks to the fact that we need, um to improve mental health services for trans and non-binary young people. Um, and there's a really serious urgent need, uh, to do that. Finally, unfortunately, the survey Sorry. It's such a bad news story, this this, um, this particular fact sheet. But it also showed there's a massive disparity which is apparent in in the we're having here about [00:27:30] the ability for these young people to access health care. Um, we asked young people about their ability to do this. And, um, the the numbers were, um, significantly lower for trans and non-binary young people compared to their cisgender peers. Which means that we also need to do more work to enable young people to access, uh, trans and non-binary affirming healthcare services. Thanks. Lovely. Thank you. John. Jemima. Um, again, [00:28:00] um, I forgot to mention that I think we're all members of P A, which stands for the Professional Association for Transgender Health at, um, and myself and I here on the, um, executive committee for that as well. So speaking from, um, a more national perspective, I fully support everything that has been said before me, Um, and particularly do want to reiterate the importance of mental health support particularly for our younger people. And, um, we do know, uh, there's [00:28:30] there's some really good research to show that if young people are supported with a social transition accepted by their friends and family that their mental health outcomes are absolutely equal to their cisgender. Um uh, peers. So So really really, really key. Um, and and also where we have had, um, you know, we have some gender minorities, you know, nationally and here in Wellington provide an absolutely amazing, uh, service that that isn't funded. So so again, really looking at having those [00:29:00] support services either in mental health or to walk alongside, um, young people and and adults to navigate the system. I think there's one of the DH BS up north in Auckland have successfully done that with a trans peer health navigator. And it's just been so incredibly helpful to have that, um, really up to date information source where they not only advise, uh, clients, young people, but also health professionals That may not necessarily know what they're doing, which is OK, um, but but [00:29:30] to be able to have have somebody that can tell them um, my other point, uh, again, probably, you know, supporting again. What you talk about working in in primary health care. Uh, really, really wanting that support and funding and knowledge for GPS, particularly in our rural communities where where it might be, you know, the one GP, um, available where where there is support, uh, education and confidence uh, for those in primary health care to do the informed consent [00:30:00] where a young person comes in seeking medication to either block puberty or to, um, develop the sex characteristics so that they can be more congruent with with their identity. Uh, finally working in, uh, one of the DH BS again that access to, um, gender affirming surgeries. Pointing out that these are not cosmetic surgeries, they are essential health care. Um, and I work on a team that prescribe hormones, but for our trans masculine, uh, people, um, it can be very, um, difficult [00:30:30] to step out in public where where people often assume that because you have a have breasts or a large chest that you are female and treated as such. So I work with so many clients that simply do not leave the home literally. Don't don't leave the house or only, uh, leave with a binder. But that's very limiting. Um, so So yes, really, uh, recognising that that these services are not well funded and certainly wanting them to be so nationally with DB will meet a certain standard would be [00:31:00] ideal. I'll stop there. Brilliant. Um, thank you all for those um fantastic. Um, insights and comments. Um, I thought we might turn to the audience to see, um if there are any questions, I've got a few questions I'd like to ask you as well, but I thought I would hand over to the audience. Um, So can you introduce yourself and either ask one panel member or direct it at all and we can go? Freya, Hello? Um, yes, I am Freya, uh, for people online. If you cannot, uh, comment. Feel free [00:31:30] to message me as well. I'm the only prayer at the minister of health. So you'll find me, um the question I have, which is actually, um from, uh, who's in Christchurch at the moment. Um, with the UK order of blocking hormones to young people, can you please explain why it is important that young people have access to hormone blockers and the safety element of being able to have self determination for young people to ask for human hormone blockers? Yeah, There's a really good statement, actually, that was written by, [00:32:00] um, the World Professional Association for Transgender Health. Um, along with the, uh, European Association for Parish Association for Transgender Health in the Asia, the equivalent same association in Asia. Um, the one, I think there are maybe seven or eight of them. And they wrote a really good statement in response specifically to that case. Um, so we're essentially what they're saying is the [00:32:30] issue is always access to the right health care. Um, so if you if somebody has so puberty blockers don't change your sex characteristics. So that's the first thing. That's one separate thing over here. Hormones change your sex characteristics. Yes, you do have to be a little bit older to get those, um, and the requirements are a little bit different. You should. You shouldn't need any barriers whatsoever to get puberty blockers. Hormones are slightly different. Um, but they [00:33:00] Yeah, it's It's important that if you've had those sex hormones or you have had any sort of gender affirming surgeries, I think the the rate is there is a study. There was a study of like 22,000 people who had had gender affirming treatments, and only of those 22,000 only 22 had had regret about having had those treatments because of their gender identity had changed again. So there are some [00:33:30] people Very, very, very tiny numbers of people, though, but But, you know, there are some people who've had those treatments, and then they actually my gender journey has moved on. I want to You know what feels right for me is actually this gender, and I'm gonna do that. What those people need is the same sort of care that trans people need. Like they need to have access to gender affirming, um, health treatments if they if they are a woman and they thought they were a trans man and they had a a ectomy, they had their ovaries taken out. [00:34:00] They're gonna need oestrogen based hormone therapy. Um, so if they're going to being, you know, a cisgender woman after having had trans affirming surgeries, they're gonna probably need, you know, further hormone treatments. They might need other surgeries and as a very small number of people, but they need the same sort of human rights based, proper affirming health care that trans people need. And it's the same with things like identity documents. You know, if you can only change your birth certificate once, then what happens if your gender changes again and [00:34:30] you know, you need to have. You need to have, um, the same sort of access to correct proper, good, supportive, gender affirming medical care and, um, identity documents and things. I think with the UK as well, if we're looking at it from a human rights perspective, is that New Zealand takes in, has granted asylum seekers from the UK refugee status in a [00:35:00] because they are transgender. And the UK is a fundamentally unsafe environment for trans people. Um, and that is the the background towards To all those court cases, it's ideologically driven. They don't like trans people. Um, and well, there's a massive, powerful section of people within the UK who don't like trans people. And they control the narrative and have created, uh, like a fundamentally [00:35:30] unsafe country for for the trans people there. And the legal decisions that come out of that are not, uh, internationally valid, I would say nice. Um, so, um, just just speaking, from the perspective of the GP. First of all, there I've run across a lot of things in my career where policies are made by people who aren't doctors and don't have medical information. As he [00:36:00] has said, there is There's actually nothing harmful about puberty blockers when given at the right time in puberty, best sort of early on, so that it just puts a pause. Eventually, at some stage, a person will need to have make a decision. Medically speaking, sex hormones of one sort or the other are necessary, but it puts a pause on that. Testosterone, in particular, is a very strong hormone, and if you're a trans woman and you [00:36:30] that testosterone runs rampant in your body, it's very difficult to reverse those changes. The other thing, I just wanted to, you know, my math brain just calculated what he said, and it's about one in 1000 people who det transition. That's the same as the rate of getting pregnant on most of our most effective birth control methods. So if we're willing to take that risk, um, that should be a no brainer, in my opinion, um, [00:37:00] so that's that's kind of a little bit more about the medical perspective. It really pissed me off when I saw those news reports, because any time policy makers are making decisions that should be made by doctors and are uninformed by the medical evidence, it just It's like practising medicine without a licence, it shouldn't be happening. OK, can I? Um Mike, one of the things that I, um, forgot to mention, too, was that we also asked [00:37:30] young people about how supported they felt at home. And unfortunately, only two thirds of Trans and Non-binary young people said that they had a parent, at least one parent who can about them a lot. So this idea that, you know, expecting trans and non young people to come out to parents, a third of whom say their parents actually don't care about them a lot to then get the health care that they need is is is incredibly problematic. And I really appreciate the human rights and and vocation there around what that means in terms of [00:38:00] the United, the UN Convention on the rights of the child and their access to health care. So it's a it's a major issue, and it's something I'm, you know, really passionate about it, obviously. So, yeah, can I just add one more thing to that about the de transition, um, or ret transition narrative? Because de transition is usually used by people who want to stop people from getting gender affirming health care, whether that's for a transgender identity or after having had a transgender identity to have a CIS gender identity again, Um, [00:38:30] I think it's about 64% of people who who de transition for any reason. Um, they do that temporarily, and and most commonly it's because of pressure from a parent. So, you know, we we need to also, if we're looking at, you know, people having to give up a transgender identity does. Is that because of, um, you know, is that because of actually, my gender journey has moved on and I'm not that anymore? Or is it just going back in the closet? And we know the harms of going [00:39:00] back of having to be in the closet of not being able to be out, Um, especially on mental health. But yeah, um, any other burning questions? I've got a couple. I have another follow up. Um, this one is from Clare Ryan from our Disability Directorate. Um, she just wanted to ask if any of our panel can comment on how issues for access to trans health options are being supported for disabled people. Um, in particular for people with maybe cognitive learning impairment. Thank you. [00:39:30] You got any on that? Well, I can say some things about, um because a lot of I think I think it's, um it's around, like, 24%. Maybe of the trans people who answered the counting ourselves are are disabled. Um, and we sort of put disabled and neuro diverse somewhat together because, you know, they're not always the same thing, but there are a lot of the same issues, a lot of the same things that disabled people and society are disabling. You know, for a lot [00:40:00] of a lot of people, um, we know that the the health outcomes for disabled trans people are much worse than for trans people who aren't disabled. Um, I forget the exact question. I can repeat it if you'd like. Ok, um, where did I put it? Accessing, um, in particular for people with co. Yeah, right. I suppose that there just needs to be a lot [00:40:30] more focus in that area. Um, one of the actually G MA has just applied for some funding to try and be able to focus on, like, disabled trans people. Um, and in particular, I mean there are. There are lots of groups within that catchment who have especially, um, a special, especially, um, inequitable access. Um, we know that around the country, so gender minorities has about 3000 contacts a year. [00:41:00] Not all of them are trans people, Some of them are, or people working in services that support trans people. But a lot of them are trans people, um, needing support and and heaps of that as health system navigation. Um, we know that a lot of people are turned away or told that they don't really know what they're asking for or that sort of thing, depending on the healthcare providers read on their level of not not necessarily capacity but like capability. And [00:41:30] I think that that's one of the and and, you know, I think I think it's about 13% of Is it 13%? We have really, really high numbers of trans people who are autistic. It's really common that if you, um, think about things in a slightly different way and are less concerned about fitting into social norms than the general population, that's more likely that you explore your gender in a different way as Well, um, and I know that lots of us at our organisation are autistic. It's really, really common. [00:42:00] Um, and we come across that all the time with the people we support as well. And a lot of the time people have been told, Oh, I think you're just trying to fit in. You know, maybe you're just weird in some way. Essentially, of course, the health care provider doesn't say you're just weird. But what the patient is hearing is you're just a bit weird. And maybe you're just trying to fit in. Um, and so you think this will help you fit in and I don't think anyone thinks Maybe I'll try being transgender, and that will help you fit in. Yeah, There's a lot of work to be done in that area. [00:42:30] Thank you. May I add to that, um, with with regards to people that maybe have a cognitive impairment, Um, you know, consenting to any medical treatment is about about understanding it and and giving that consent. So it might just be that that person needs some additional support either from more specialist services that specialise in that area. Um, and also some people on the autism spectrum again. It's a social communication difficulty, so so it doesn't mean the person is any less trans. [00:43:00] It just means they might need some more support to to make sure that they do understand the information and that they're able to articulate that in some way. Um, and And we do know that out of the the trans population, including transgender non-binary the continuum, um, your three, that population is 3 to 6 times more likely to also have autism spectrum disorder, whether it's diagnosed or not. So that's 3 to 6 times not too sure why. It's a correlation, but but so we often [00:43:30] do work with people that that express themselves in different ways. Yeah, just add, um, from a funding perspective, the youth one Stop shop network. We provide holistic wraparound care, including mental health services, and it's very empowering for young people to be able to come and access their services. They're all free, but they need more funding and we don't. We have a lack of funding for providing some of [00:44:00] these services to trans and non binary young people, which really needs to be rectified. So I just OK any other questions question over here. Do you think that there's enough legislation in New Zealand to protect trans people not only in terms of their experience but also, um, their choices? Good. No. I think [00:44:30] that, um, amending the Human Rights Act to include sex characteristics and gender identity is very, very necessary. Um, and it it's certainly on the table, but it's not been prioritised. Um, I think lots of the issues, uh, like a lot of the issues with trans people, are based on discrimination. Um or, you know, come from discrimination happening. And in a lot of cases like anti [00:45:00] discrimination legislation gives you a way to hold people accountable after the discrimination has happened. If you can show that that is why the discrimination has happened. So overall it definitely has an effect and like makes things better. But it also doesn't you know, murder is illegal. It still happens. So it's kind of there's a whole lot of, um, there's a There's a lot of policy things that could be improved across, you know, every every sector. Um, and we know that one of the biggest issues for trans [00:45:30] people was housing. And if you can't get housing. How can you have a GP? You know you can't even get a food parcel if you don't have an address. So it's it's It's quite dire. Um, and I think that, like protecting trans rights better like in some ways, um, that won't solve that problem. That problem is something that needs to be tackled on its own, Um, and then also that can be supported by things that do support trans people, like having emergency housing that's accessible for trans people. Um, you know, prioritising trans [00:46:00] people. And I think, um, I think the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development last year, 2019, we sent them this great this great County House report. You know, there's been a lot of work that's gone on there to get Trans people named as a priority and, um, in the national housing strategy and things like that. So it's kind of yes, across the board, a lot more needs to be done. Some of its legislation, probably most of its policy. And then there's a lot of how do people enact their rights. Do we have the right mechanisms for holding? Um, [00:46:30] you know, like like like in the case of a doctor continually says to patients, You need to go away, learn how to wear a dress and high heels before you're allowed to come back and get hormones should you be practising. If that's what you expect women to do to get health care from you. I don't know. I I'm not a medical medical regulatory body, but you know, it's Yeah, it's making sure that we have the right mechanisms. I wanna tell you particularly address, particularly the non binary aspect of things. [00:47:00] Um, in the 2018 census I had, I had read something about how they were going to be more than male and female as gender, um, options. And then when I got my census, I was really pissed off and there was there was an article from Stats New Zealand basically said, It's just too hard. I come from a family full of statisticians. Um, it's not too hard. Um, I think they're working on it for the next time around. When my partner and I got married applying online, we're both [00:47:30] non binary. We only had male and females options. There was somebody in the DIA who championed our cause. and we actually got a marriage licence with X or something. Yeah, something that wasn't male or female. Um, you know, because as of 2013, gender is irrelevant in marriage. So, um, there's all sorts of policies like that. And if we find that we're not included or invisible, that has a huge effect on mental health. I mean, the number [00:48:00] of times I myself just feel completely deflated when somebody misgender me or I'm not included in some something, you know, and then this this legislation about that, I think I don't know what happened to it about being able to self declare your gender for your birth certificate. Turns out I can now that I'm a New Zealand citizen. Self declare my gender for my passport, but not my birth certificate and just all of those things that completely [00:48:30] invalidate our existence. So, yeah, that would be helpful. OK, I think we're just about, um, just about time to wrap up. But I've got one question, um, for each of you for the panel, I think you've touched on this in all of your conversations, but I think we'll, um just, uh, lay it down as a challenge. Um, what is your top priority for the Ministry of Health to work on for transgender health? Um, I think competent care across all areas would be great. Just a just a small one. [00:49:00] We could get that by 3 p. m. gosh, um, my top priority, I think, um, as a health professional, um, having really clear guidelines that are consistent across all the DH BS and funding that's consistent, and if possible, workforce availability. That's consistent. Um, I mean, I found this in multiple [00:49:30] areas, not just trans care. Um, coming from the southern DH B to this DB, um, so some kind of cohesive system and also empowering the GPS to be able to access those guidelines and feel comfortable if they don't feel comfortable providing the service themselves, which there are probably many areas that I don't feel comfortable with in other spheres to [00:50:00] know where to refer people and funding for that. You know, if I'm a GP with a special interest in trans care, what funding am I going to get to be able to provide that service that 16 other GPs in my area don't feel comfortable with and want to refer to me. Um, so one that I think is arguably the most important, but also one that the Ministry of Health has a lot of control over is clear. [00:50:30] The backlog for genital reconstruction surgeries. Um, all it needs is funding. And it's a concentrated pathway and like a good system, all of which is well within the Ministry of Health's capacity to do, um, people have been waiting for 10 years already. There are There are plenty of people who have told us that the reason they haven't tried to get it is because they don't believe that it's ever going to happen. Um, [00:51:00] the system has left us with so little hope. Um, it just needs to happen. I. I think I just have to reiterate that point. It's just such a no brainer that we need to address that massive backlog and also provide, um, funding for binders and a range of other scenarios and especially clearly, um, quality mental health, um, support for young people. Ultimately, it would be lovely to live in [00:51:30] a society that wasn't easily transphobic all the time. And so it would be nice if we could start to think from a public health perspective What that might mean and how we might address that as well. Right? Thank you. Um, a again. I agree with all of those things and and probably, um, really wanting to de pathologize trans affirming health care. Um, so if a young person or an adult you know, needs or wants medication, we all go to our GP and speak to our GP and our GP Usually, you know, helps us out by prescribing [00:52:00] something. Um, is that that Trans people have exactly the same rights that that myself and other cisgender people have, Um, and to have funding to support, uh, the training and competency of our primary health care professionals. Um, I'd just like to thank all the panellists for sharing those amazing insights. I think it's given us all, uh, a wider and deeper view of, um, issues, um, for trans gender health care. Um, I think, uh, we have to finish up by one, but I think there'll be, um, an opportunity to stay around for the next, um, few minutes. If anyone's [00:52:30] got any questions, they want to ask the panellists or anyone that's happy to stay around. Um, so thank you very much for coming. Um, and, uh, i'll just, um, close off the panel there, Kilda.

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TITLE: Malcolm Vaughan profile part 2
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VOICES: Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; 20 Buller Street (apartment); 2000s; 2010s; 2020s; Able Traders; Afterlife Memorial Trust; Alfies 2; Ali Baba's nightclub; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Bamboo Bar; Bill Logan; Bistro bar; Bloomers Review (Alfies); Bojangles; Boulcott Street; Brian Le Gros; COVID traffic light red; COVID-19 (coronavirus); COVID-19 Omicron variant; COVID-19 vaccine pass; Carmen Rupe; Carmen Rupe's 70th birthday; Carmen's Curio Shop (third and final location); Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Carmen's New International Coffee Lounge (second and final location); Carterton; Casper's Bar and Cafe; Chrissy Witoko; Chrissy Witoko Memorial Trust; Club Exotic; Club Exotique; Club bar (Royal Oak Hotel); Cuba Street; Dana DePaul; Dana de Milo; Daniel Fielding; Dominion Hotel; Dorian Society (former site); Egyptian collectables; Emmanuel Papadopoulos snr; Evergreen Coffee House; Genevieve Westcott​; Georgina Beyer; Ghuznee Street; Gypsy (Wellington); HIV / AIDS; Hotel St George; Jeff Whittington; Karori; Levin; Liks strip club (Vivian Street); Majestic Centre; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Marion Street; Member of Parliament; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; Nicole Duval; Pasi Daniels; Peter Cuthbert; Phillip Cottrell; Pound nightclub; Rion McKenzie; Royal New Zealand Returned and Services' Association (RSA); Royal Oak Hotel; Salvation Army; Salvation Army Citadel; San Francisco Bath House; Sanctuary Cruise Club; Scott Kennedy; Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar; Seaward MacGregor; Spatz nightclub (Harris Street); Sunset Strip; Sydney; Tavern bar (Royal Oak Hotel); The Balcony / Le Balcon; The Boatshed; The Dome; The Purple Onion; Toad Hall cafe (Plimmer steps); Toledo bar (Royal Oak Hotel); Trevor Morley; Triangles coffee lounge; Vivian Street; Wellington; alcohol; alcohol laws; alcohol license; arrest; art-a-rama; breasts; cottaging; cruising; drag; drugs; funeral; gay; homosexual; homosexual law reform; mayor; night porter; nightclub; parents; patron; police; politics; queen; roast; sex work; sex-on-site venues; striptease; the block; toasted sandwich; trans; transexual; transgender; vice; vice squad; working girl
DATE: 26 January 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar, 176 Cuba Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Malcolm Vaughan remembers people and venues relating to Wellington's rainbow communities over the last four decades. This is part two of a longer interview - part one can be heard here.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Now. Last week, we were talking about some of the, um, venues that you had been involved with. Uh, that was a week ago. And, um, almost, Uh, just within a couple of days of that interview, we have gone into traffic light red. Can you tell me what that means? Uh, it means a lot of hard work, to be quite honest. Um, especially for the people in the hospitality industry. For us, it means, um, single server. Um, everybody has to be seated. There's no dancing, um, [00:00:30] and basically at it. As long as you're using the covet passes and, uh, double scanning checking ID and, um, and and the and the, um, vaccine passes so that they match because it would be anybody easy for anybody to carry somebody else's. So you make sure those two match up and, uh, people just have to wait. Gather at the door until you can get to them and then single service by each bar person. So you practically got two barmen just making cocktails and two people just working the floor serving drinks. It's gonna make it a lot [00:01:00] harder. It's such a roller coaster, isn't it? Up and down, up and down, up and down. Um, I think we're gonna be for around for a while. And I think this, uh, code red is gonna be here for at least minimum three months. And that's just guess, work. Um, but the government has said, um, don't expect this to be a short spell, So I think they're looking at 2 to 3 months easy. Last week we were ending just and we were just about to start talking about kind of individuals. [00:01:30] And, um, I came away from the interview thinking, Oh, I must have asked. I should have asked this. I should have asked that So I might just go back on again. And And that was to talk about, say, the number of patrons in in the venues that we talked about I. I don't think I ever got quite a clear idea of, you know, Was this 100 person or what have you? So what about the Royal oak? Can you tell me Oh, the Royal oak was like I said in the last interview is synonymous. I mean, the the the bistro bar would have taken up easy, easy. 100 and 5200 people and bar much similar, [00:02:00] I would say around a 70 75 bracket. Um, Toledo bar upstairs was much more gracious. Um, you you, um Yeah, probably get about, um, 180 people upstairs as well. It's quite a big venue. Big big venue. And was it often that packed? Well, in the old days, it was, Yeah, it was a lot of people used to used to go out drinking earlier. You used to get that after five work crowd, which you don't seem to get these days. Um um, like the bamboo bar when I was managing that probably [00:02:30] had a max of 60 70 people, but certainly took a lot more than that. And it got actually jam packed. I mean, you'd open the bar at 4. 30 the bar would be packed by five. you have fan fantastic venues, but, um yeah, change to today change from today. What about, um, places like pound and Caspers pound? You could get up to 800 people through there. It was phenomenal. Because of the the size of the place and a small bar next door that would be not 800 people all at once. But you [00:03:00] get 800 through during the night at a capacity. You could get five or 600 they're easy. Um, it would be pretty cramped and very hot, but, um, yeah, it was a big too, um, Casper would probably be, I'd say around the 100 120 mark. Yeah, with the three different levels they had there. And the dome dome was much smaller because you had two domes, one down the south and one down the north end. Plus that you had the garden bar outside. That would be a comfortable 100. 100 packs, um, of people. Yeah. And what would be a [00:03:30] good night in terms of trade wise? Well, Fridays and Saturday stock standard have always been the best nights. Um, that's the people coming out after work for drinks Friday night. Stay out Friday night. Some people stay home Saturday. Others go home Friday night, come out Saturday. But Friday Saturday nights are the two main nights. Um, that that, uh, people seem to populate all the bars and has it changed over time Or it's always been that way. Um, no, it's always been that way? Sort of. Um, it's changed a way. But now, with with, uh, covid, of course you can't predict any further. Now, what's gonna be the busiest night? I mean, you can [00:04:00] have a a Wednesday night which can be absolutely fantastically really busy. And then a very, very quiet Friday night. I think people are getting a little bit more cautious because of covid about going out. Um, so it is in terms of struggle. Hospitality is indeed feeling, um, the kick from, um, non attendance of people not going out. And I never asked you last week about, um Do do you have any, like, patron stories? You know, favourite memories. Oh, yeah. There's lots of stories. I mean, over the years, there's been, um, yeah, heaps of stories [00:04:30] that you can remember, some of them funny, and some of them are not so funny. Um, I think the best ones that you get when you get they do get the younger ones coming in the days. And, um, they bring their mums and dads and, you know, this is where I drink, and it's like, um, it's a security blanket for the parents, too. I suppose, knowing you know, they know that their their, um, child has been taken care of and can look after themselves that they've got a, um you know, they've got a safe place to drink. Um, nothing really jumps out there. I mean, there's heaps of stories we've always joked about writing a book, [00:05:00] you know, And, um and we've always said, you know, some people will be applauding it. Some people will be running for cover. Um, but it's just one of those fun things. That's one of the things we've been planning to do when we virtually hit the road is write a book and tell about our times. Um um, in the various venues and the funny stories, there's there's been a few, um, I think Well, before I met Scottie, um, and and, um met two guys and was juggling them same time in the same nightclub. Um, so that that was quite a bit of a, um, a task, but it all ended out nicely [00:05:30] in the end. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, lots of fun stories, but save that for the book. Yeah, absolutely. So maybe moving on to to some of the people that you've you've known and and and know now. And, um, I was just thinking, uh, what about Georgina? Bio? Um, you briefly touched on Georgina. Um, in the last interview, tell me, um, like how you met. And, um, we actually met when we were both working for the Royal Oak Hotel. And Georgina George George in those days was the night porter there. And I was working in the Yates coffee [00:06:00] shop, and we became firm and good friends and a group of us that were all working at the old Roy Hotel. All ended up flatting together, uh, at number 20 Buller Street. So we've been, um, Gena is probably my longest and dearest friend. Um, and, uh, very exciting to have that friendship. You know, uh, we have around for dinner every Monday night, and, um, we often talk about and have a laugh about some of the old times and some of the adventures that we had together as as, um, Young on scene queens. [00:06:30] I suppose you'd call it in those days? Um, yeah. My longest friend would be Georgina. A fantastic person. She's done very well. Um, we've been working on a, um M series that's been made about here at the present time. Um, and I have got that that first script prepared now. So it's gonna be a bit of a, um uh, a series with flash points through Georgina's life. Sort of starting off with the, uh, the street scene on the strip clubs and cars. And the next series will probably be about her, um, transgression [00:07:00] to, um into and living over there and then becoming a council becoming the mayor. And I think the next series after that will focus on her term in Parliament. So it's got It's very exciting at the moment. Very exciting. She's led, uh, an incredibly rich life. What's it been like for you to actually just kind of witness her growth over over these years? Oh, outstanding. Totally outstanding. We always knew. I remember one day when, uh when she was working at the club, Um, a club exotic. And we we Stagg at home at some un un un [00:07:30] guard the hour of the morning and she said way back then, you know, um my God. Lordy, lordy, lordy, I. I remember the good lady Lady lady. She said that there's got to be a better life than this. So to see where where she's come from and where she's got to has been, Um, absolutely fantastic. She had a relatively good upbringing with, um a a very good, um, schooling. And I think her road to success is is, um when she got into CARTERTON. And she just opened that can of worms and, [00:08:00] um, and laid it all on the line. I've been a hooker. I've been a prostitute. I've done drugs. I've done this. And I think that's what endeared her to the people of carterton was that, um she left no stone unturned. Nobody could drag anything out on her. She was out there front, and that's what they loved. At last, we've got somebody that's, um, honest and got integrity that that fearlessness of that honesty really isn't totally 100%. Um, you know, to do that, you know, and spill your bes blood it all on the table like that. Um, I remember, um, when she won the mayoral, [00:08:30] um, one of the old boys down at the a R a said, Oh, that Georgina. She's a damn good bloke. You know, um and I've said to her, What do you do? Put yourself in the spotlight. Uh, we we've been, um She gets a little bit frustrated walking down the street and everybody recognises and stops her and talks to her. And you go out for a restaurant or something where they and people stop her in the restaurant, you know? And she goes, Oh, flu. Why did they always pick on me? And I go, [00:09:00] Well, you put yourself in that position, you're famous, and you're a trail blazer. So of course, people are gonna be interested. People want to stop and talk to you because they love you. And that's simple. Is it? So, you know, putting up with those sort of things have been fun. Can you describe the the flat that you both had? Oh, yeah. It was, um really, really tiny flat. It was, um Well, it was one big, massive house up in Buller Street, Number 20 Bullet Street. It had, uh, at one stage was a massive old vintage home, but had been carved up into four or five flats, and, uh, the [00:09:30] one we had was upstairs. It was a little old staircase that went up to the, uh, front door. There's only one entrance to it. The front door Because the house had been divided up. Um, the front walked in the door. On the left was the lounge, which eventually will become, um, um, a shared bedroom with Georgina and I, um, single beds. You know, um, and, uh then down the hallway was a very, very small kitchen. Very skinny hallway, small kitchen down the bathroom and shower next door to that. And [00:10:00] three tiny three tiny bedrooms. Um, very tiny bedrooms. Um, off of that hallway. So and And it's seen a few of us people come and go over the years. Different ones involved in the scene. Um, yeah, but it was a stunning little flat. It was great. And it was in the seventies. Yeah, late seventies late seventies, definitely. So. Late seventies. This was a time when, um, homosexual activity was still illegal and there was still discrimination. Well, I mean, it still works, but there was discrimination [00:10:30] then, as well. Um, did you see yourselves as outcasts or how How did you see? Not really. Because I, I sort of left home at, um at an early age moved into town and sort of and met people of my own, you know, other gay people. And it was still very close in those days. But when we were young, we were bulletproof, you know? So we sort of would hang around the places like the Royal Oak, the Dorian Society, Um, Carmen's coffee, coffee lounge. Um, we we formed all that bond with the young Gasset around [00:11:00] our own age group. Um, never, really. I suppose on the street, you saw it with the police in the old days with the with the working girls out on the street, they gave them a pretty much of a hard time. Um, but we never suffered any, um, anything from it ourselves. Never ran into any trouble. It was relatively, um yeah. Trouble free. You mentioned club exotic or a club? Exotic. Exotic? Yeah. Can you tell me, um, about that venue That was a small venue as well? It was, um, right next to Brian. The, um I don't [00:11:30] know if it was called in the day, but it was, uh it was another, um, strip club. And, um, Georgia was working up there a little bit. Tiny venue went up the stairs, hung a right, walked in very small venue. Very small stage dressing rooms out the back. Um, on our flatmate was, um was also the male stripper and the male host of the show. Um, Georgina and the girls there was sexy. Lexie. There was Mama Bev. There was Rian. Georgina, um, Yvette Kennedy. Um, there was quite a few of them in those [00:12:00] days. You know, uh uh, uh, circling in that circle of the club exotic and that was owned by, um, Manuel Papadopoulos, who also owned the pawn shop down below on the corner, Um, which eventually became peaches and cream. So was it just a strip club, or was the six work as well sex work as well? Yeah. Yeah, it was performing for the for the boys and the girls. Um, there was there was another one. Used to be a truck driver, Um, and throwing 44 gallon drums around, [00:12:30] um, and then trans, um, transitioned transgendered. And it turned out to be one of the most stunning queens out. And all the other queens are quite envious of her. Um, she used to strip up there, um, her photos up on the wall of Fame upstairs in the bar. Yeah. Um, so there was a good conglomeration of of queens going through there as well. I was funny enough talking with Georgie about this on on Monday at dinner on Monday night, and she was saying that, um, quite often Brian grow because Brian Brian was basically all heterosexual females, [00:13:00] Um, and working girls as well. So it was a strip club, plus working girls. Um, and, uh, he'd get on well with the Queens, and now and again, she was going on now and again. We used to go and work for Brian because, like, if he was running out of girls and they had a busy night on and get they'd get a few of us, you know, decent transgender queens over there that looked that could lipstick and looked femine enough to get away with it, you know? Um, yeah. So that whole street was a was a, um, a working class of, um Well, a neighbourhood of like minded people, different [00:13:30] venues. But all got on well, all looked after each other. So it was Papadopoulos that he owned the club exotic. Yeah. Yeah, he owned the club exotic as well. Um, there was one particular occasion there where, um, Raylene had had, um She had taken a few drugs too many. And, uh, they were doing a a show called Artur Rama, which was the finale of the show. And, um, Raylene had to sort of, like, get down like a catwalk on on her hands and knees and walk towards the the stage. Well, she'd [00:14:00] had a few drugs and her bowels let go, and she just was diarrhoea flying completely back over over all the other. And Manuel Papadopoulos threw his ear and all the girls are screaming and fled out the back. And now he's coming out. You girls get out there and you get her up and you clean her up and you clean all that shit up. You know, um, Georgia, just it's this story coming from Georgie is so much funnier. But she said it was just It was just sitting there, and all of a sudden [00:14:30] her her as just piled out all this, And, um, all the girls fled. Absolutely fled. Um, it's one. We've laughed over many a times. Oh, I got to tell me that story about and she had diarrhoea. Um, yeah, but so they they they were fun times there. There were really good fun times there. Where else has, uh, Georgina worked? She worked well, She went to the club because, of course, since she went to Auckland, she was working for the bloomers review. [00:15:00] And, um, would occasionally come down to Wellington with the bloomers review to do shows at Alfie's in Wellington when it first opened up. Um, and she did that for a few years. Then she transgressed across to Australia. Who was Dana de Paul, Um, now deceased as well. Um, they came back. And then, um, when they came back to Wellington, they moved to the to, um that's when Georgina first fell in love with carterton. Um and, uh, I remember her doing an interview and she was going for the mayoralty. [00:15:30] She spent a bit of time on council, and then she'd, um, was going for the and, uh, TV three had Genevieve Westcott and interviewed her walking down the street and and and saying to her, You know, so what, you know brings a girl like you to a place like this. You know she's going well, it's the people. She's sitting it small and it's it's It's very warm and welcoming. Um, so she had a passion for it. Um, So I think, uh, after she did the then left that [00:16:00] then went into parliament. And then she gave up her house in, um in CARTERTON and moved to Kalla for a short time. Um and then, of course, got out of parliament. And then when life started going downhill with the kidney transplant. So it's been a fast, hard paced life for her. Um, but she's no silly kitten. She's, um very astute. Very astute. On the opposite side of the vine street from, um club, um, we have [00:16:30] the green coffee lounge just a bit further down. Yeah, that was why, um, Chrissy we took Can you tell me about Chris? Chris, he was fantastic. Um, I I going back to when I remember Chris briefly from when she was managing the Sunset strip. Um, but had more to do with her when she when Carmen eventually left town. And, um, Chris basically took over and became the new queen of Wellington. She had the utmost respect. As we've talked in a previous interview. Um, she's [00:17:00] loaned the venue out for various youth groups. Um, she had, um a no tolerance for trouble or anything of that kind. She'd have different gang members all drinking in there at the same time. Drag queens, gay boys. You name it, Um and you know, she wouldn't stand no shit. You know, if cause any trouble, you're out of here. Um, fantastic person. Uh, I think over the years, we did a couple of fundraisers for her when she got raided by the police for selling illicit alcohol without a licence. Um, I think it [00:17:30] was her 50th birthday. We went to, um, which was a grand affair at the top of the majestic centre. Um, and every every who's who in town was there, it was an outstanding right up on the on the top floor. And you overlooked all of Wellington and right up to Newtown and over to the hospital. It was absolutely fantastic. And Chris, he certainly earned her place in society. Um, she had a heart of gold. Yeah. Can you describe her personality? She had happy. A happy disposition. She was fun. She was, um she had [00:18:00] met a lifetime partner, Andrew, or who later became Doc. Everybody is called, um, um Andrew Dock for short. Um, and of course, Andrew had had a Well, Andrew had a few Children, but, um, while they were going out, he he he accumulated another one. well, Chrissie ended up taking the child on and raising the child as her own. Uh, I remember at one stage I was working in the Dominion Tavern, the little cafe bar there, and Chrissie rings [00:18:30] me up and she goes, Is that Yes. So is me. Darling. What was she like? She said, Is Andrew down there? And I went Yes, he's here, darling. She said, Oh, Has he got NLA with him? I went, Yeah. She said, Oh, good. She said, I'll see you soon. Oh, don't tell him I'm wrong. I'm on my way. And I thought, I know I never thought nothing of it. And when she came down and, um, she gave Andrew the slap What have I told you about taking the baby to the pub? You know, you're supposed to be out taking him for a walk or not taking him to the pub. So there's been some fun times then, but she was very serious. Um, exactly how she wanted this child brought up, Um, Amazing. [00:19:00] Absolutely. Incredibly amazing person. Fantastic personality. And but, as I said, took no shit if anybody caused her. I've seen her wigs off queens in her coffee lounge and give them a good you know, you don't do that sort of shit in here. Blah bla out the door. They go. She was, um, a fantastic person, great personality, but did not tolerate any crap. Can you describe the God? From what? I remember you. Yeah, Yeah, it was a little wee door, and it had a little window in it. Um, all glass windows around the front of [00:19:30] that, um, curtains and blacked out if I remember rightly. Yeah, um, walked in. There's a couple of little booths on the right hand side down the hallway. On the right hand side was a very tiny where they used to make, um, taste of sandwiches. And, of course, your, um, liquid in a teapot. Um, coffee or tea? Which was usually alcohol, rum or something like that. Um, it was the disguise. Carmen started that off. And Chris, he kept it going. Um, [00:20:00] I had jukebox in there all those retro sixties and seventies songs. Great music on it. In fact, um, and out the back was the bathrooms, the toilet. And then you went out through a side door, which took you out into the alleyway. And then you went through another door to the right and up the stairs. And that's where Chrissy's apartment was, which was fabulous. Laid out very, very well. A fantastic little venue spent many a time up there with, um, Chrisy [00:20:30] and and a few members of the of the crew. You'd have quite often have little dinner parties Or or little, um uh, D parties. Or you just go up there for a few drinks to get away from the bustle downstairs. It was very entertaining. And what about on the walls of the what was on the walls? Um God, I. I remember. I remember Carmen was lots of Egyptian stuff. I think it was just lots of pictures, actually, if I remember right, Chrissy had, um [00:21:00] um was always taking snaps out of the magazines and things and creating collages, and I think they were originally up on the walls. The walls were quite plain, Really From the odd. Some of those odd photos, like the girl with the Pearl earring duplicate copy of prints, things like that. Um, but of Chrissy's collages, of course, which are now all in te Papa. Um, yeah, apart from the jukebox, I can't remember the walls very well at all. But, um, yeah, the jukebox. They playing the old songs, George McCray, All that sort of stuff. Fantastic. Yeah. So [00:21:30] what was it about? Toasty sandwiches? Because I know both Carmen and Chrissy um, advertised, you know, being the best toasty sandwiches in town. They were. They were, um I think it was the fact that they used three or four slices of bread. So if you wanted ham, sweet corn and tomato, you get, you know, a slice of, you know, bottom slice with tomato on it, then another slice of bread, then all the sweet corn on it, then another slice of bread, and then all the ham and then another slice of bread. So once they put them into the old toasted sandwich press and press them down, they were [00:22:00] They were, like, really good hot club sandwiches. They were fantastic. Um, I don't know whether I don't know why they were the best, but they were. They were the best toasted sandwiches in town. You find that in reference? I think on many things, people like, Oh, I always remember the tastes of sandwiches. You know, they were just the best ones in town. Just next door to the evergreen. Um, was the purple onion? Yeah. Can you tell me, um Did did you ever visit the No, Not very much. No. I didn't go to the purple onion at all. I remember the onion distinctly. Um, but [00:22:30] that was, uh that was, um um, run by, um, and Anita. Um, and they had two boys who went on to dance for Michael Jackson. Um, is is still alive and living here in Wellington. He's living with his son, Moon dog Mark, who was a, um, regular DJ around town. Used to play at Doctor John's, uh, big gay night club that used to be in Courtney Place. Well, came back from overseas and moved in with his son, and they're living together over [00:23:00] with, um, Moon dog and his, um, Another huge name in Wellington is Carmen Rupe. Carmen was fantastic. Um, the very first, um, Carmen's international Coffee lounge Down in, uh, Vivian Street. We all used to go down there. Sometimes we would have been drag sometimes, but, um, when the door in society closed, we always end up down there. If we'd been down there and and and drag or something, then, uh, Carmen would give you the nod if there was a gentleman [00:23:30] looking for some company that night. Um, so she was She was She looked after the young queens. Very, very, Very well. Lots of Egyptian, um, paraphernalia around the walls is to remember at the end of that she had Lola working there. Um, he used to do the dishes, and she'd have, um, her, uh, big long evening gown, gloves on with all the jewellery on the outside of the gloves. And she'd be in the kitchen doing the dishes, you know, And she'd go off to, um, collect the milk every morning at 2. 30 in the morning [00:24:00] when the milk treatment station used to be down in Tory Street. There's Nicole when we first met, Um uh, dull. There's Nicole. Um, Lorina who funny enough and moved over to carton and ended up in, um, as a constituent of Georgina's and Carterton, um, fun place, uh, and developed a relationship over the years with Carmen. Um, Carmen would, um, at one stage, she's tried to set up another little community cafe, [00:24:30] um, in Marjorie Bank Street on the corner of Bank Street. And there was a chap I was seeing at the time, Stephen Goldfinch. And, um, she he got, uh, Carmen got us to go and run this little cafe for her. And the thing behind it was all the gay boys were going down to cars and picking up the trade, which was sort of knocking the working girls. So she thought if she opened up this little cafe, I can move all the gay people over there and just leave the international coffee lounge. Um, for the working girls, [00:25:00] But, um, it didn't last very long. About six months or something. It was just out of the way back. Water place. Where was that place on the corner of Bank Street? Yeah, it was triangles. Um, that is when we were running it. I think it only lasted about five or six months. It was very short term, just didn't make any money and did the basic same things to coffee sandwiches. And there was no alcohol went through it. Um, it just didn't really catch on. So was it on the corner of, um, Marie Banks and with or, uh, [00:25:30] Banks is the one that goes up. What's the one on the first one on the left? That one there. And it was It's There's a little Italian bar there now, um, it was on that corner there. Um, great little place it was. Can you describe what the decor was like in in the international coffee language? Um, Carmen's international, like I said was Carmen had this, um, big. It's really cross quite a cross section. Really. Um, because she had all this Egyptian artwork and and and screens [00:26:00] dividing places off with, um, Egyptian, um, artwork all over it. Lots of, um, heads of Carmen and things like that, you know, statues around the place and round tables everywhere. And quite a few tables, actually. Um, but massive big red Chinese lanterns. You know, the ones the the round ones with all the gold Tess hanging off and lots of those through the place. It was an exciting place. Toilets were a bit, you know, down the back and a bit. [00:26:30] You know, there's one toilet. I think so, in a heavily popular use in demand and and usual thing had your holes punched in the walls and things like that. But, um, the girls ran the shop for Carmen. She was upstairs, and I remember her distinctly coming downstairs and, you know, she'll be over at two late hours in the morning. She'd come down in her orange fluffy slippers and rattle the keys and a hometown. Darling, a girl wants to lock up, you know, Um, so, yeah, a good, fun place to be, uh, developed a good relationship with Carmen over the years. And we did, um, [00:27:00] through the chrisy took a memorial trust. We did, um, Carmen's 70th birthday celebrations, um, down at the boat shed. And, um, we did it close to Carmen's birthday, but we actually didn't tell her it was going to be a birthday party and a celebrity roast. And, uh, all the girls that used to work from her for for her at Carmen's International Coffee Lounge and the balcony. Um, all came down from Auckland. Um, it brought people out of the cobwebs. It [00:27:30] was a fantastic night. Um, and the police officers that raided Carmen's and arrested her, uh, we invited them for up from Christchurch. Um, and they paid the entry ticket to the event and paid their own airfares and accommodation as well. That was the night they presented Carmen, who was like, Carmen. Do you recognise these voices? And then they sort of spoke from around the corner, and she was going, Oh, my God. I recognise those voices, you know? And, um, of course, they would appear anybody came [00:28:00] up on stage, so it was fantastic. All are all girls. And some of the fun times they had with her, they all got their chance to speak. The police had arrested her. There was a fabulous buffet put on on the boat shed next door, The rowing club next door, rather to the boat shed. Um, a great night. Um, Carmen was having her sitting on stage in a in A in a one of those big Thrones, you know, and sort of like, half time. He sort of said, Do you want to get down and mix with the girls or whatever, but could you see us just sweating out there and she was, like, bored? [00:28:30] Um, but she had a great night. It was fantastic. Um, and it was very, very sad to see her go eventually. So you developed it. You know, we got the painting at the top of the stairs here, which, um, it was signed by Carmen, um, and donated to us through the fantastic, uh, Jackie Grant. One of the reporters from the Dominion Post gave it to her, and she donated it to the bar. So that's, um, part of the fit of the wall of fame. It's fantastic. You briefly touched on, uh, sex work at S International. Yeah, Coffee lounge. I've heard stories, [00:29:00] um, in terms of the the tea cups being certain ways to get, you know, certain kind of handles to the right cup, standing up the right way. But I didn't really don't know a lot about it. It was, um I don't know how true it actually was, but it's it's It's just one of these things that have gone down. I know whether it's folklore. It's true. Um, I never really noticed it myself. Carmen would let you know if there was a gentleman that was interested in in you or any particular girl. And maybe that's how she did it. I don't know, but that's the, um that's the rumour, Um, [00:29:30] and part of our history. So we just keep we just keep to that. So how would she tell you? She just gone? Darling, I think the gentleman over there would like to have a chat with you. Why don't you pop off one over and have a cup of coffee with them? She was just really nice. She was for on the business line. And George and I were quite often doing drag in those days. Um, sometimes we didn't have a really good night out on working on the street. And, um, we would go, you know, Mr Zandi, our landlord, Greek landlord, He'd come around every Saturday morning to collect the rent. And, you know, we've one [00:30:00] year when the terrace tunnel was being built. Um, remember, wheeling out, dressed in hot pants and, uh, hot pants and hold neck tops and fishnet stockings and big, clunky shoes. Georgina and I wheeling our, um, washing machine down the street to the to the, uh, able traders the second hand shop to sell it off to get some money so we could afford to pay the rent. Those were the sort of days it was. It was really tough. You know, Um, this is after we got out of working at the hotel. Um, we thought, Oh, we can make plenty of money. You know, um, but it didn't [00:30:30] quite work out like that. Um, sometimes you had a good night. Sometimes she didn't, but it was a fun, fun time. And it must be pretty tough in Wellington's weather, particularly in the winter time. Yeah, I suppose so. You really think about that. And in those days, there was always a, you know, a need to stand under. You know, Marion Street, the famous, you know, um, do the block basically Marion Street, Vivian Street, Cuba street, Back down in. And the girls just used to work the block, but, um, of course, all that went when [00:31:00] they turned Vivian Street into State Highway One, it became one way. So it didn't work anymore. Um, so the girls sort of graduated to different places by then. prostitute Law reform was happening as well. Um, much, much later, of course. Um, but in the old days, it was the, uh, work in the street and outside. Carmen was great. How did Carmen get on with the Salvation Army who were actually neighbours? I don't really know that, to be quite honest, how she got on with her neighbours, but it just seems pretty ironic that wherever she is, like like, her place is, um, right next door to the [00:31:30] Salvation Army Citadel. And then Brian moves out of here and goes to the White House and sets up another strip club and the old Salvation Army boarding as well. Um, I don't know what their salvation are doing, but every every place they touch seems to turn into the of iniquity. You know, um, I I should imagine she must have got on with. I mean, what could they do? Carmen was out out front there, you know, she could walk down the street with their tits out. And maybe you could, um, do a thing about it, because legally, she was still classed as a man. And it's not illegal for a [00:32:00] man to walk around the city with his top off. What about, uh, the balcony? Carmen's balcony balcony went up there a few times. Um, gypsy, uh, gypsy and Elena and they had two Children as well. Gypsy was this, uh, 6 ft plus bouncer. And we used to go up there because, uh, sometimes they would finish work. Georgie and Real would finish work at the club exotic, so they'd shoot down to the balcony so we'd go down there and just watch the show. They do some shows there, Um, and Gypsy was like, um a younger a younger. [00:32:30] And I've seen her just pick up two guys stairs steeper than what we've got over here. Um, and then much, much higher. And just grab two men by the scruff of their fucking shirts and them down the stairs. You know, she was, um, very big and intimidating not to be stuffed around with, um, the decor in there was quite good. It was a big round sort of circular stage. Um, with a long catwalk and chairs down either side. Um, if I remember big red drapes and curtains at the back and the dressing rooms behind that, it was a great [00:33:00] venue, I think when Carmen eventually had to get out of that balcony, she reopened another one down the lower end of Cuba Street upstairs, Uh, which is now a Japanese restaurant. Yeah. So the balcony moved, and I think that move was when spats nightclub was there. Spatz was on the side, and Carmen's was on the corner of Victoria Street and balcony. [00:33:30] You went up the stairs there from Victoria Street side to the top level, and spats nightclub was underneath that. And so when it moved to the lower Cuba street, was that also called the dog that was called the balcony as well. That was called the balcony as well. And that, um I don't know how long that went for It went for a few years. Um but then I think it might have been one of the last venues she actually had before she went overseas. I know she had a sort of tinkering gift shop on top of Cuba Street, and also another one down in Plymouth steps there by the old toad [00:34:00] hall that used to be around. She had a little shop in there as well, so she said a few places. She had a place in, um, which was a bit of a brothel from what I understand. Over in ham A and and so she moved around. She certainly knew how to make a dollar. Um, by this stage, she'd, um, appeared in parliament for, um, you know, what do they call it? Um oh, they called it before the the committee committee. Yeah. So, um, she was certainly famous, that's [00:34:30] for sure. So, can you recall what was being sold in the Plymouth Street? Plymouth. I think it was just, um, trinkets and and and, um paraphernalia. You know, just little lamps and things like that. And, um, lots of Egyptian stuff that she'd had and, you know, she just tinkered. And little trinket stuff. Really? You wouldn't know the address? No, it was up. The plumbers steps on the left hand side. Somewhere in one of those little wee shops. Toad Hall, The cafe, if I remember rightly used [00:35:00] to be up plumber steps and just to the left. Then there was a little shops going up there. So it was somewhere up there that she had a little trinket shop. I can find out more about that from Georgie when I speak to her next. And when the balcony was in Lower Cuba Street, you were saying it was a Japanese restaurant. There is a Japanese restaurant near now. Yeah, Um, So if you the bottom of Cuba Street coming up on the left hand side, you've got that, um, ski place does all the jackets and stuff, so probably three or four doors along there. I know there's the big [00:35:30] doors, which go to the apartment block upstairs. Um, but somewhere in there, there's a little Japanese restaurant upstairs that used to be the balcony. So if you want to down there and have a look, you'll be able to pick where it was. Absolutely. So it seems to me that I mean, it was obviously that Carmen had a whole variety of businesses in Wellington. Was it easy to get, like, kind of leases and businesses established at the well, she never seemed to have a problem, and and, um, certainly she was, um, nose [00:36:00] drinking part of her. I mean, she was in the paper all the time, You know, um, famous for walking down Cuban mall with her breasts out and that big flower wacked in here waving to everybody. Um, and she quite often appeared in the paper. So there was, um I don't think she ever had any trouble getting ob. Well, obviously didn't. She managed to get a, you know, a brothel going over, and and, um, she had three or four properties. She had the balcony. Um, I think people she had credibility people believed in her. You mentioned earlier the Sunset Strip. Where was that? [00:36:30] That was around the corner here in Vivian Street. Um, and the sunset then I think, moved from Gas Street over till where the cave used to be. Alas, I think a S was in there. Then it became the cave. I think the Sunset Strip was in there before a S. Um, I wonder if it Sam Fran, what is Sam Fran now on Cuba on Cuba? Yeah, Yeah, its two bath house. It it [00:37:00] sounds like a lot of these venues didn't particularly have a long life span. They were coming and going. I remember the sunset briefly when it was over here in in, um, street, the cave went for a few years. Um, Karen Bates. Tim, her parents bought the cave and they were running that. And they were, um, great publics. Um, it was, of course, just up the road from the Wakefield Hotel. It used to be in Cuba Street as well. Um, I don't know. Life spans. Really? As I say, I'm I'm bloody [00:37:30] dreadful with dates, um, years. But I just remember going to these venues and having a fantastic time. Um, yeah, I suppose the cave lasted. I probably started off as Alibaba. Alibaba's probably did four or five years, and then the cave took over. Um, that probably would have done the same. I'm not sure of the length of times, to be quite honest. Another, um, high profile person here in Wellington was, um Donna Demilo. Donna de. I only got to meet Donna. Um, [00:38:00] when Dana returned from Melbourne, she'd been living in Melbourne. Um, and I met her with Chrissy. I think the first time I actually met Dana was at Chrissy's 50th birthday at the Majestic Centre. Um, because I always used to refer to New Zealand's Jerry Hall because she was like that 665 statuesque, you know, long blonde hair, stunning. Donna was fantastic. spent many a time with Donna as well out of her house? Um, yeah, [00:38:30] yeah, I never I I never met her in the earlier years and seventies. The eighties would have been, um, into the, um, late nineties. Two thousands when I met Dana. One of the areas we haven't talked about is, um, the whole, um HIV A I DS, uh, period in the beginning, Kind of early mid eighties. How did that affect the Wellington communities? [00:39:00] Oh, it was It was dreadful. Um, actually dreadful with all those marches and things like, um, Logan started getting the homosexual law reform board together again. The HIV thing, um, was was very, very difficult with you was side glancing if you got it, if you got it. You know, everybody's running off to get their tests and things like that. Um, it's good to see things from times from those times have changed. And, um, even like with, um, after Chrissy died and, um, we started [00:39:30] up, we actually started up, um, the Afterlife Memorial Trust. And then we changed it to the Memorial trust when Chrissie passed away. Um, we've done 22 23 funerals out of that. Um so these days, it's not so bad. Uh, with the, um, HIV epidemic, they got all the new drugs. You know, um, they're living a lot longer. So we've sort of diversified away from the trust a wee bit with, um, doing funerals to just supporting more community events and, [00:40:00] um, sending young people on who to come to terms with their sexuality. But yeah, to devastate the HIV aids thing was, um, devastating The amount of people that we did lose, um, sometimes four or five funerals a week. Um, it was really horrible. Um, yeah, devastating. Devastating. Um, And when we look back and think God, with the grace of God go, we most of us survive. Well, a lot of us survived that, um um, getting through that, um, tough [00:40:30] time. But we lost a lot of friends to HIV aids. A lot of friends about people like, um Daniel Fielding and Peter Cuthbert. Did you have much to do with him? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel was a was a good friend. Come up to pound all the time. He used to come to as a call, and Daniel always, uh, Daniel was, um an instigator. I met Peter at the Dorian Society. I think it was when I first met Daniel. Um uh, of course. Then Peter died, and Daniel [00:41:00] kept the house going out, and and, um, yeah, Daniel was out there. Vocal, um, always organising things. Devotion was right into the devotion parties, of course, had the day parties going on in the Caspers days, which was, um, upstairs in the, uh, Edward Street cafe. Um, it used to be EC downstairs and escape nightclub upstairs, and we used to do a lot of the gigs up there. Um, Daniel was a go getter, um, again on the wall of fame. [00:41:30] And it's amazing that wall of fame up there, the amount of people that come through and recognise people I've had people ask me about that photo of Daniel and say, um, do you know much about that and go Oh, well, we're actually related. And II I knew he was gay, and I knew he died from HIV A I, but no, I never really got to know about him. So you get people asking you what we know about him, that sort of thing. Um yeah, a fabulous character. Great sense of humour, Um, a go getter for organising gigs. Fantastic person. And And Daniel worked in quite a few venues around [00:42:00] Wellington as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He worked for Joe down at, um, at the sauna down in Garrett Street for a while. Um, he worked across the road at the blue note for a while over there, um, he worked for, um Oh, he had his own venue, which was, um, sanctuary, which is is a a safe site. A safe six on site venue for men only. Um, and Dixon Street. Um, upstairs [00:42:30] in Dixon Street, there was a, uh, sign Blue Cinema blue, Um, uh, porn theatre on one floor and sanctuary on the other. And, um, Daniel sold, um, low alcohol, beer, coffee, tea, that sort of thing. Um, but it was basically just a cruise place for, you know, porn room, cruise maze. Um, a pool table, if I remember rightly. Um, yeah, that was it was basically a meeting. A meeting place for the gay men. Take them out of the cottages. Yeah, [00:43:00] it's really interesting nowadays because I think Wellington's last sauna closed. Was it last year or the year before last year. I think it was. And it closed for a little while, then reopened again and then closed down. Um, and it's quite funny, because we quite often get a phone call here. Where's the gate? Sauna in town. Oh, I'm sorry. There isn't one at the present time. Is anybody opening one up? Look, I really don't know. Um, 11 particular gentleman who calls us from. Is there a gay sauna there yet? No. There's no gay sauna here yet. Who's gonna open one? We don't know if anybody's gonna open one. [00:43:30] Um, maybe it close. So and I think it's dearly missed. Yeah. Do you think it's a thing of the past? Yeah. Um, had one that wouldn't go to it myself, but, um, I think there's a need for it. Um, there's no real venues in where males, um can go to meet other males, you know, on a sexual, like, safe sex environment. Um, I think the younger [00:44:00] ones wouldn't probably be into it, but it's probably more old school that would like it. Um, most of our inquiries are usually for a much older group of people. Um, so I think There's probably a need for one. But, um, is it really practical these days? There's just a There's just a couple of other names that I want to, um, put out there. Did you know, um, Seaward McGregor? No, no, no. What about, um either Jeff Whittington or Philip Cottrell? All of these names Philip [00:44:30] Cottrell. Philip Core. I knew very well Philip used to drink in this bar. Um, lovely man and, um, absolutely devastating. What? What happened to him? Um, and we went to his, um, unveiling of his, uh, seat up in, uh, street there. Uh, he was a lovely, lovely man. Um, who was the previous one you asked about? Philip. Jeff Whiton. No, no. Um, I think Jeff Ding died in the Bojangles days. I think he had been to Bojangles. Um, but I can't [00:45:00] remember him very well at all. And another case of, um, homophobia. Um, it's still out there. I should imagine well and truly still out there. And I should also put on the tape that, um, the three names I mentioned Jeff, Philip and sea um all three were killed in in various over over a period of time period. Yeah, it's sad. Um, sea, in fact, was, um, had met. He was working at the ST George, [00:45:30] uh, had met somebody, I think, at the Saint George. But, um, this this this young guy, I think he was about 17. Um, had also been known for kind of, um, possibly picking people up at the royal oak. Um, and this is in the late 80 early eighties, early eighties. Um, and, uh, yeah, um, I can't recall that one at all. No, no. Unbelievable. We've had a fantastic, uh, talk and sorry to end on such a It's [00:46:00] we know it's there. We We've had such a fantastic talk both this week and last week. I'm wondering when we've done these talks. Um, what do you come away thinking? Because we we we're going through a whole lot of memories. Um, how how do you feel about kind of like like this? It doesn't really worry me, I think. And I think what you guys are doing is an absolutely fantastic job, because sooner or later, we're gonna get a bit of dimension and won't be able to remember these things. So it's important to capture these things. Um while you still can. Um, [00:46:30] I like I like the wall of fame. It's, you know, by putting that wall of fame up there, you're remembering people, and and it it helps you remind you of things that have happened to people from the past. Um, we as I said before, we get a lot of people coming through making inquiries about certain pictures on the wall. Um, so no, it doesn't worry me at all. I think it's fantastic that, um, people take the time like yourselves to record this because this is our history. And in 100 years time, people can look back on this and see what we were going through at this stage, What we've been through and how [00:47:00] far we've got to now where they are now, um, I think it's gonna be outstanding. OK, Well, final thing in 100 years time, what would you want to say to somebody listening in 100 years? Oh, enjoy yourself. Be yourself. If you're gonna slide out of this world, grab the straws and the champagne and take it as a good ride to the grave. Um, just be yourself. Just be yourself. Be who you are. Um, you'll always come up and goes those who goes against against the grain, but, um, shut them down.

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TITLE: Malcolm Vaughan profile
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VOICES: Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; Abel Tasman Hotel; Alfies 1; Alfies 2; Annie (musical); Aotearoa New Zealand; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Bamboo Bar; Barrett's Hotel; Bill Logan; Bistro bar; Bloomers Review (Alfies); Bojangles; Brett Sheppard; COVID-19 (coronavirus); COVID-19 Omicron variant; COVID-19 lockdown; COVID-19 vaccine pass; Capital magazine; Carmen Rupe; Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Casper's Bar and Cafe; Cees Kooge; Civic Square / Te Ngākau; Club bar (Royal Oak Hotel); Cuba Street; Devotion (Wellington); Devotion Festival (Wellington); Devotion parade; Dominion Hotel; Dorian Society; Dorian Society (former site); Felicity Frockaccino; Fergus Dick; Fran Wilde; Geoff Braybrooke; Georgina Beyer; Graeme Hunt; HIV / AIDS; Hero (Auckland); Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Hotel St George; Human Rights Act (1993); Imerst; Japan; Japanese seaman; Johnny Croskery; Knox Church Hall; Korean seaman; Lesley Garrett; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Mark Blumskey; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Mexican Cantina; Michael Moore; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; Norman Jones; OUT! empire; Oaks Brasserie; Oaks Coffee Shop; Oaks Complex; Oaks Tavern; Pavilion bar; Phil Smees; Pink Triangle (magazine); Polly Filla; Pound nightclub; Public toilet (Taj Mahal); Railway Tavern; Ray Meagher; Rion McKenzie; Royal Oak Hotel; RuPaul's Drag Race (tv); Scott Kennedy; Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar; Sovereign bar; Su Pollard; TV3; TVNZ (Television New Zealand); Tavern bar (Royal Oak Hotel); The Dome; The Garden Club; The Prince Hotel (St Kilda, Melbourne); The Terrace Coachman; Titanic; Toledo bar (Royal Oak Hotel); Tony Katavich; Victoria / Harris Street public toilet; Victoria Spa sauna; Vinegar Hill / Putai Ngahere Domain; W. Somerset Maugham; Wellington; alcohol; alcohol laws; alcohol license; art-a-rama; barman; bars; beats; cottaging; dance; dancing; disco; dj; dog; drag; dragon boat; dyke; graffiti; hospitality; jig-a-jig; liquor license; merchant seaman; nightclub; performance; police; poof; public toilet; sailor; sex work; social distancing
DATE: 19 January 2022
YEAR: 2022
LOCATION: Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar, 176 Cuba Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Malcolm Vaughan talks about the many Wellington bars and hospitality establishments he has owned or worked in over the last four decades. This is part one of a longer interview - part two can be heard here.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi. I'm Malcolm, and we're sitting in our bar mine and Scottie's Bar in, uh, Cuba Street in Wellington. Scott, Mel's bar and the bar has been around for a number of years now, hasn't it? Yeah, we're just, uh, just about to end our 14th year in the bar, and and we start our 15th year on the seventh of February. So we've got a big party coming up. There was some, um, media coverage last year about, um uh uh, You and Scottie retiring? Yep. Yep, yep. That's a big one. That one is, [00:00:30] Um, yeah, we were retiring. We were planning. We've been doing it for a long time and and collect. I think between us, we've got 73 years in the hospitality industry and myself, having worked for over 40 years within the, uh, LGBT queer community. Um, and we just got to that stage where we're getting on in life now. We're not sort of like as young as we used to be, and the hours sort of tend to take their toll after a while. So, um yeah, we decided last year we were gonna sell up and move on. And what happened there? Um, a great thing called covid came along. [00:01:00] Uh, we had, uh, out the bar and got some new owners all in mind. And, uh, paperwork was done. The landlords were all happy. And the day we were due to sign, um, covid came along and just put a hold on it for a couple of months. And then, uh, after Auckland being in lockdown for four months, Um, the prospective buyers got a little bit of cold feet, of course, with covid. Understandable. So they've just backed off for the temporary time. And, uh, we've decided we'll keep the bar and keep it going for another year and put it on the market again at the end of [00:01:30] this year. How has covid impacted? Um, just nightlife in Wellington, because we we're We're two years into it now, aren't we? We're two years into it. Yeah, and it has been a bit of a struggle, and I think, um, I think it's a commonly known fact that hospitality, um, throughout New Zealand is basically on its knees. Um, 48,000 businesses have gone under alone since covid came along, so I think everybody's had a a fierce swipe at being slapped by covid. Um, it is dreadfully, um, affected [00:02:00] all of the hospital and and, uh, throughout New Zealand, not just the gay and lesbian venues. Um, but, uh, we're a firm believers that, you know, sooner or later, this is gonna come to a bit of an end sooner or later. Or, uh, you know, ride the wave. The tide can't stay out forever. If you keep that belief, you got something to cling on to. What kind of changes have you seen in? Um, you know, the crowds coming into S and M, um, you know, numbers, uh, type of people. Um oh, yeah. There's definitely definitely numbers. Uh, numbers [00:02:30] difference, Um, in in what we'd normally do. Um, people, uh, people, I think are a little bit more wary. Still about going out, especially with, um, the the new macron, um, virus going around. And people are becoming much more reticent about coming out. Um, you don't see them during the week as much as you normally would. Um, but they sort of band together on Fridays and Saturday nights, Which is seems to be the main nights, of course, But, uh, you can definitely notice a drop off in trade during the week, and something that's just happened is the, [00:03:00] um, Advent advent of the, uh, vaccine pass. And how is that going for for here? Fantastically, actually. I mean, if we were operating under level two, which was, um, single service. You've got to have a lot more staff on. You had somebody on the door, um, checking, um, passports and things like that. Um, now with this with the new traffic light system, um, we can have as many people in the bar as we like, Um, and there's no social distancing like two metre distancing apart. Um, [00:03:30] you can't pick which day of the week is gonna be a busy one. but you can control the amount of people that come in. So it's it's really working for us. Everybody having a double vax and also showing, um, matching ID because it would be quite easy for somebody to forge um, uh, a vaccine pass or use somebody else's. So if you just play the game and do the matching ID with the passport, then you're just getting, um, the right people in the bar. So what? You're really in effect doing is is, um, looking after your [00:04:00] clientele and looking after your staff, Um, and hopefully reducing the chance of catching one of the viruses. This interview is going to be all about, uh, some of the various, um, establishments you've you've worked in and owned. Um, which is, uh, yeah. I mean, you are just such an amazing wealth of knowledge. Um, given that we are in S and MS, Um, do you mind if we start with M and and tell me, um So when did you [00:04:30] come here? We first came here in, uh, 2007 was our first year here. Um uh, I think it was around about August. No, no, it was February. Because it was the day after Scott's birthday, and, um, we opened up on Waitangi weekend, which was, of course, it was a public holiday the next day. So our continued birthday for the last 14 years has always been, um, on Waitangi Day or the day before, so that we actually get a public holiday the next day so everybody can have [00:05:00] a bit of a sleep in, You know, if they've been out on the turps the night before. And what did you have? An idea? I mean, what did you think was gonna be? Well, it it happened rather, uh, quickly for us, To be quite honest, we were, uh we had pound the nightclub before S and MS. And we'd we'd taken it when we closed. Pound down. Um, we took a year off and we were helping some friends set up, um, the lanes, the bowling lounge in Wellington. And, um, we'd been there for we were only supposed to be there for three months, [00:05:30] and I ended up staying there for 13 months. And, of course, we'd make an annual pilgrimage every year to, uh, Vinegar Hill, the gay camping spot. And we got approached by the particular owner of Of S and MS who owned it under a different name at that stage. And he said, Look, I've got this bar and it's not doing very well and, you know, how would you like to take it over and manage it? And so we we said, Look, we're going on holiday to Vinegar Hill. Let us have a couple of weeks off, and we'll, uh, have a chat to you when we get back. So we both came back to Wellington. [00:06:00] We both walked into the lanes and thought, looked at each other and thought, it's time for a change. So, uh, we took over, um, the managing of of the bar. And I think we were about two years into it. Um, when we got the opportunity to buy it. So we did. We bought it home, um, out. And of course, we had no money in those days either. So, um, everything was on tick, but we managed to pay it off. Um, and, um, 14 years later, still here. When you think about managing or owning a bar, what are the things that you have to [00:06:30] kind of consider? Oh, the social life aspect that you're giving up because hospitality does take over your lives. Um, we realise that, uh, but that's one thing you really have to contend with is that you don't really have a AAA social life. Um, also, um, is it gonna work? You know, you've got to have a gimmick. Um, which, uh, we've been very lucky with the LGBT community. Um, we've always had, um, a good following. So that's sort of, um, been a stand fast for us as well. But [00:07:00] I think that the the social, um aspect is one that you really do miss, um, and making sure that it works, and I think to keep a business going for as long as we have. It's, um it's it's been a tough ride at times, but at the same time, um, it's a passion that you have, um and, um, people say, like, if you sell up, you'll be back in the business within two years. Um, and we were sort of like, No, we're not. Um, but as it turns out, here we are. We're back for another year. So sorry, Wellington. You're stuck with us for another [00:07:30] year and and you say gimmick. But actually, you have done so much. Um, you both have done so much for the rainbow Communities in Wellington. Uh, because a lot of what you've done has been really community orientated. I mean, it's not gonna make money. It's It's more than I can. Yeah, well, it is, I suppose. I think it's like as I said, you've got to have a passion for it. Um, you I remember sitting on on, um, the steps of Alfie's nightclub many years ago. And I was chatting to Michael Moore [00:08:00] and he said, What's gonna happen when it comes to time when we don't have to have gay bars? And I said to him, Then there will always be a gay bar where I'm in town and, um, I've chosen to I love Wellington. It's It's the place that I grew up. And it's the place that I find the most friendliest. Um And so that has been true words. It's always I've always kept, um, a venue going in Wellington. Um, there has been times when we haven't had a venue, but you go to Lent to make sure that you can find one, [00:08:30] which happened after the closing of Caspers and we had no venue. And, um so then we sort of like ran around and saw a friend of mine that I owned another bar that was not doing very well. And, um, we said, Look, we've got this bar. We haven't got a gay bar at the moment. Let us take this over. And, you know, we can make some money for you and some money for us, you know, and we'll create a lifestyle for us. So we managed to get a another bar up and running, which was quite cool. We were quite happy about that. We did that for a few years as well. Can you describe the decor and sings [00:09:00] upstairs? I think it's a very it's. It's more of a long New York finger bar with a cedar, red, wood stained walls, Um, and beautiful crystal chandeliers. Uh, very similar to what was on the Titanic. Actually, it's a New York finger bar. It's very long. It's very skinny. Um, people we love having bar stools in front of the bar. It's one of the things that we quite often get, um, complimented on because a lot of bars you go to you can't sit at the bar and it's quite a focal point for entertaining people. [00:09:30] Um, by them sitting at the bar, um, they like to see what's happening behind the bar as well. Uh, we've had guests say to us, You know, uh, watching you guys make cocktails is better than watching TV. Um, because it's live. Um, so, yeah, it's a lot of fun. Goes with it and What about downstairs? Downstairs was, um, a little bit, um I wouldn't really know what you call the downstairs flavour. Actually, Uh, when we took it over, it was it was quite Dungy. It was all dark. Chocolate brown, um, walls, roofs and everything [00:10:00] was chocolate brown apart from the carpet, which was bright scarlet, red. And it had booths and long booze, which were very, very uncomfortable. And, um, as I said earlier on, when we when we started it up, we persevered with what we had, Um, until we got to a stage where we'd paid the business off, it was ours. And then we could start looking at, um, remodelling downstairs. So downstairs is basically just a conglomeration of old chrome seating, um, light grey walls and [00:10:30] some nice, um, artistic wallpaper that looks sort of like, uh, it's great for the nightclub lights. When the lights are going, it bounces off. So it's like 3D. It's very smart, but it's very smart, casual, very dancey downstairs. Um, when we got the dance area going also upstairs, you have, um, a wonderful wall of photographs. Yeah. Yeah, That's, um I remember many, many years ago when I was a young man and I and it was my first trip to Australia. And I went to, um, the Prince Wales Hotel in Saint Kilda. [00:11:00] And I remember walking up the stairs and they had AAA drag review there, Um, every Friday night in the main bar upstairs. So I went along to see this, And as I was walking up the stairs, I looked at all these photos on the wall and thought, You know, what a fabulous idea of, um, a way of preserving your history and your culture. So I basically stole the idea from Melbourne and bought it back here and through working in so many venues over the years, got to work with some truly fantastic famous people. And, of course, our local community, our local drag, um, artists and, [00:11:30] uh um, So a lot of them feature on that wall. It's remembering a lot of them, sadly, now passed on. So it's remembering those people and creating a space where you can look back and share about the memories of that particular person. Yeah, so it's a It's a big part of our history and our culture up there. Um, so it's well worth keeping. And hopefully, um, in the end, it would probably all end up going to department. What hours does SNM run? That's been, um, dealt a blow with the covid thing. Normally, we would be doing six days a week. [00:12:00] Um, but since business has dropped off, um, during the week, we've gone down to four days a week. So we're basically operating, um, uh, Wednesday to Saturday from 5 p. m. till 3 a. m. That's the the hours we do. Hopefully, if this all calms down a wee bit, we'll start reopening up again in the beginning of the week. Um, but right now, it's just, um it's not worth the effort to put it there. And it would cost you to open the doors and describe for me if you can. The the clientele clientele is very mixed. Um, and I think, you know, heading [00:12:30] back to this conversation that I had with Michael Moore saying there will come a day when we won't need gay bars. Um, and I think personally, my own personal opinion is that, uh, way back in 1985 86 when we were campaigning for the homosexual law reform bill. Um I think one of the biggest arguments we had there was that we just want to be treated the same. We wanted to be treated as equal as everybody else. Um, I don't think we realised at the time what that really meant. We got [00:13:00] homosexual law reform, Bill. Um, we got the Human Rights Amendment act. Um, and everybody's just treated the same as these days. So I think perhaps in some ways, it's got to the stage where well, gay people can drink anywhere. Um, uh, people's attitude have totally changed 100%. Um, So And it's that old story that if gay people can drink everywhere, so can straight people. And we usually find that we have a very mixed clientele, a lot of women because they like the security that, [00:13:30] um, drinking in a gay venue, um affords them, um and also like minded in the in the married couples or or straight men. Um, that come here. Um, because they enjoy the company. They they like the place they're not closed off or shut down in the brain as far as, um, sexuality goes. So yeah, like minded people that don't have a problem and pre covid. Um, this had a very strong kind of international feel about it as well. Yeah, we we worked hard on that one. It was, um, a production [00:14:00] company, Um, out of England that, um, approached us. They had they were auditioning quite a few years back. Now, um, seven or eight years ago, uh, they were, um, bought any the stage show over from London. And, of course, they bought all the main stars of which Sue Pollard was in there from, um And it was cheaper for the production company to, um, send over a representative and audition New Zealand [00:14:30] Children and performers to play the orphans and and And the chap happened to be a gay guy, and he was sitting in the bar going. I really like the atmosphere in here. Would you boys want to do a bit of a deal with our country? Our our, um, our company, We go, what does that involve? And he said, Well, we bring all these international shows over here, and we bring all the cast and the crew, and, um, if you look after us and give us a a reasonable rate on our alcohol we'll send all our business your way. And, um, so they've done that, and we've had some major productions through here. Um, out of out [00:15:00] of, um, Spain, South Africa and London, Um, predominantly, with all the major shows we've got to meet, Um, some absolutely fantastic famous people through it. Um, Lesley Garrett's right up there. Um, Diva, absolute diva. So of course, um, Ray M of home and away. Of course, he was in Priscilla, queen of the desert. Um, so we got to meet all these famous people that this production company was bringing, you know, Um, so, yes, it's had a bit of an international flavour. Um, and we're still, um, in contact. Um, with [00:15:30] most of these people out of the out of the company. Indeed, in South Africa and London, Um, a lot of them. It also gave LGBT members of the of the company a base S and MS was the base. And the fact that it was a gay bar was great was more secure for them as well. I mean, they weren't able to bring their straight friends, um and so it's just melded into being a a fabulous place to be. I touched on very briefly. Uh, the community events that you've both been involved in and [00:16:00] has seen quite a number of, uh, well, a lot of community events. What? What are those kind of standouts for you? I think the one that we enjoyed doing the most was the actual, um, uh, puppies in the park, Um, for for gay pride. I think that's one of the most outstanding ones. And and, of course, over the years, being involved with, um, devotion parades. Uh, I think it was way back in, uh, 95. I was the, um, organiser for the when we had the devotion party here. Um, [00:16:30] I was the, um, organiser for the devotion parade. And I think that for me was a really big stand out, because it it, um, started down in, um Chaffer Park and round its way through, uh, Courtney place in Dixon Street and down into Victoria Street, Manor Street, Wool Street into Mercer Street, into the square. And I remember the TV companies running along with taking, you know, filming footage and all that, um and and people trying to stop me and ask me questions about the parade [00:17:00] and how long it took to organise and I. I think we were turning into street, Um, when the parade was still coming up Dickson street. So it was a massive parade. Um, I think it was Wellington first day of having, um, gay dancing boys. You know, um, which was fantastic. So it was a massive parade and organising like dikes on bikes and and the marching boys And, um, and the floats, Uh, the big with Johnny, cos um, sitting in this big swan swanning through town, I think that's probably one of the highlights. That and the doggy parade [00:17:30] for us, um, is probably two of the highlights that we've really enjoyed the most. So that 95 devotion parade Was that an evening parade? Or was it? No, it was daytime. Daytime? I think we left, um, Courtney Chaffer Park about, um, two o'clock in the afternoon. If I remember rightly. Yes, it was one or two in the afternoon. And what was the feeling? Like marching in such a parade? It was fabulous. Absolutely fabulous. It was, um, since then, we've actually when you're on the sidelines and organising it and make [00:18:00] sure all the You know, all the marshals are getting the the parade through, and you're not holding up too much traffic. Um, that can be fun of it. But having actually been in the hero parade, um, Auckland total different kettle of fish going along road we we took, um, we had started up New Zealand's first gay and lesbian dragon boat team. And, um, we were racing, um, in Wellington and Lake and Henley Lake and Master. And through our contacts, we managed to get [00:18:30] a, um, a dragon boat off one of the Auckland teams and put it in the actual hero parade. And, of course, we were all on our our like her with the rainbow flash across the front and going through the, uh, through the parade and people just trying to reach out and touch you and grab you is it's actually quite frightening. Yeah, I think that's the one and only time. I sort of like, um done a parade. Um, I don't think I'd be involved in another Not now. Thinking of entertainment here at S MS. What kind of entertainment have you had over the years, [00:19:00] we've had live singers in here. Um, we got a fabulous girl group which we normally get in here. Um oh, we've had the drag show. Um, we actually don't rely heavily on the drag performances. Um, like, on a week on a weekly basis, we actually prefer to do one offs. And, of course, we we firmly believe in supporting our local artists that have done good. So we all sort of sort of tend to head towards poly, who eventually left these shores and went to Melbourne and Felicity ci, who eventually did the same thing but went to Sydney. [00:19:30] So it's when we have, like, special events like birthdays and things like that. Then we bring the girls back from Australia. Uh, well known, and they set a pace. So it's, uh that's our entertainment. Is is relying on old school drag. Yeah. We love it if we go backwards in time. Um, you were saying that the establishment prior to the was pound pound? Yeah. Tell me about pound. Where was that? Pound was situated in the, um, the Old Oaks complex down on Dixon Street. Um, bordering both sides where the Royal [00:20:00] Oak Hotel used to stand. Um, and they built this glass edifice which was supposed to be resemblance to the Crystal Palace in London with a time period of of five years. It was a temporary building, um, and it And when it opened, it was fantastic. But over the years, it sort of slowly started to deteriorate, and businesses came and went, and, um, we went into the nightclub there, Um, and 2000 [00:20:30] to 2006. Um, as I said, the building was a bit of a rundown building, and you could get eight or 900 people through in the nightclub on a night over a period of time. We used to have a 5 a. m. licence. So, uh, we'd open up at 4. 30 in the afternoon with a small bar next door, then transgressor into the nightclub. Um, that lasted six years. But at the end of the six years we were done, uh, we'd lost so much weight, so many hours, we were going to work with your sunglasses on, going home with your sunglasses [00:21:00] on, and we decided after six years that, um, nightclub life was great. But time for a change. It was a fabulous, um, as I say, the building was a bit of an old rundown building, but the atmosphere was eclectic and it pumped down. Can you describe what the The decor was like? Decor. We We, um when we moved in there it it had been deserted on New Year's Eve in 2000. Um, and there was literally glasses, uh, six months later, still sitting on [00:21:30] the bar where they'd left on the night and and was still there, There was mould growing all over the what was left in the glasses. There was no decent stock or anything like that left. Um, the building looked pretty run down on the inside. Um, we managed to secure a little bit of finance. So we knocked out a few walls and put in a raised area and had a big stage built and dressing room the back of the stage for, uh, the show girls to be able to come straight out of the dressing onto the stage. Um, it was a massive building. It had big, um, girders running through, [00:22:00] um, the roof, Um, no air conditioning whatsoever in those days, apart from one big sliding window. Um, and I think one or two fans that were circling around, but all that was doing was stirring up the warm heat. Because you get so many people in there dancing. Um, and of course, so many people dancing the the, um, condensation that was just dropping off the roof. Um, so it was fabulous time in its time, but glad glad it was over in the long run. [00:22:30] Um, new beginnings. And so what was the the the smaller bar located? Smaller bar was, um uh it was called, um, sovereign. And that was, uh, when you went into the into the venue, you walked up to the stairs and you'd go into the nightclub on the right, and there was a smaller bar on the left. So, uh, we join those two up, knocked a hole in the wall and join them up. So we just had a smaller bar, which was a sovereign bar, and we'd open that up in the earlier part of the afternoon that would go through till 10 o'clock at night. And then at 10 o'clock, we just open the doors and open the nightclub [00:23:00] up, and everybody would stampede. And it's great. One thing with Wellington is that it seems to only be able to kind of accommodate, you know, one or two rainbow establishments at any one time because of the the the kind of population size Was there anything else, Um, in Wellington at that time around the early two thousands? Um, if I remember rightly there was. I mean, we, um we did pound from 2000 to 2006. Um, there was, uh, a straight night club across the [00:23:30] road. I, um which a lot of people used to go to that one as well. Wasn't really known as a as a as a gay night club, but it was, um, gay friendly. Um, so there have been dots and places around Wellington. I think it comes down to, as you say, um, the population, um, Wellington doesn't have the population that Auckland has. Auckland can have seven or eight gay venues where Wellington, because of the population, could only have two. Um, immersed eventually disappeared and garden club opened up. [00:24:00] Um, they ran for a wee while there by this stage, we were out of the game, um, of the nightclub. Um, doing our, um yeah, sabbaticals. Shall we say down at the lanes Bowling lounge. Can you describe, um, the the clientele for for, um, pound pound was was, um, like, full on gay night club drag shows every Friday and Saturday night. Um, we'd enlisted. Um, when we first opened up pound, we didn't even have any performing drag queens in Wellington at that stage. Um, so Scotty and I each weekend [00:24:30] would fly up to Auckland and and, um, do a little sat around all the gay venues up there. Um, why we were processing pound and getting it to, um, a workable stage. Um, and we spotted, um, a fantastic, um, performer in Auckland called Paris and, uh spoke to her and said, We're opening up this new gay night club in Wellington. And we, uh, need some, uh, performers. Would you like to come down and be our head hostess, which she really accepted? Knowing that she had no performers here to [00:25:00] come to, um, so it was building up through her own work, building up, um, a whole new group of drag performers. And that's how it all started. That's so interesting. Because, I mean now in Wellington, I mean, it is so known for its track performance. RuPaul's drag race. I think that's what's done. It, um, it's changed the whole face of drag, Uh, before it was very difficult for, um, girls, the performers to get and into corporate gigs. [00:25:30] Um, nowadays, uh, corporate gigs are begging for them. And I think that that's RuPaul's drag race. This whole change, the whole perspective of what about what drag is. And there's a whole new artistry. Um, that is now about because of RuPaul's drag race. Even their makeup is is just tremendous. Absolutely outstanding. Um, uh. There's been a heavy, um, American influence, I think, in there. Um, so it's paid well for, um, New Zealand drag even with, um, our latest winner of [00:26:00] a drag race. Um, New Zealand with ru Paul. How much would it cost to get into the pound? I don't think we ever cha charged all the time. I think it was free to get in. And then we used to charge on the coat check. If you want to do coats charge. I think it was a dollar per item we used to do. Um, Major, I think we'd had a $20 door. It could have even been a $10 door charge in those days. Um, [00:26:30] if we had a major production show on, um because, of course, come back by that stage. And she was, um, rounding up a whole new group of girls. And so we did we do a major production show once a month. Those are the nights we charge because you probably have seven or eight drag queens on stage at once. And that door money helped pay those shows, you know? So, um, the rent was pretty pretty tough in those days as well. So as long as you could cover the rent and make a little bit on the side and and cover the entertainment, I think it was about $10. Was our max charge? [00:27:00] Yeah, we've We've never charged at S and MS ever. Yeah. So these two venues have basically covered the last two decades. 20 years here in Wellington. How do you think the kind of crowds the people, the the rainbow community changed? When you see people coming in and out of the doors, it's changed dramatically. Um um I. I think a lot of the queer community really needs to look back. Not so much. Um, the older [00:27:30] US older generation. But the new ones, Um, some people who don't even know who Georgina Baer is. Um, they don't really realise that prior to 1985 86 homosexual law reform, you could go to jail for having consensual sex. And we've changed all that. We've fought those battles, and we've got to where we are today. I think a lot of the younger ones really need to step back and have a look at their history. They tend to have this, uh, we own the world. We rule the world, [00:28:00] you know, attitude. And I think they they they tend to be a little bit agist in some ways. Um uh, a little bit of respect for the older community, I think needs to be appreciated a lot more. The clientele is like, uh, change dramatically. You will always get people that will go back and going. Oh, my God. I heard about Pound. I wish I had been around in those days, and then you go back to the eighties. Um, they were well known. The music was fantastic. Um, disco was there. Donald [00:28:30] was at her peak. Um, they were great times. And there used to be a lot more camaraderie in those days, I think because we were, um, illegal. Everybody used to watch after each other's backs. Nowadays, that seems to have gone. There's no camaraderie there whatsoever. Anybody would be willing to stab you in the back at the first chance they get. Um, so it has changed quite well. Quite, um, Dr. Dramatically, actually. Um, sometimes [00:29:00] you feel that you we feel we've done our parades. We've done our, you know, we've done our time, and so you need to stand back and just let the young ones take it over. And if if they tend to screw things up a wee bit, it's gonna be a lesson learned. Um, that's our opinion. Do you see, uh, young ones coming up and taking, um, taking over businesses say, like, you know, nightclubs and stuff? No, not so much these days. Um, you have a look around town, and there's not many nightclubs [00:29:30] left anymore. They're all dance bars, big nightclubs. Days are run and truly gone. Uh, I don't see a lot of younger people, um, putting their hand up to get into hospitality. Um, it's a tough game. Um, in general, kiwis don't want to work in hospitality. And I think that's what we've discovered with, um Covid is that all our employees were all foreigners that were over here on working holidays. And now that that pool has dried up, um, you just can't get staff anywhere. [00:30:00] Um, uh, you just have to walk around town and have a look in different venues, and they go, we are hiring. We are hiring. Um, it's all over. There's a group called Wellington Bartender Exchange. And it's all the bars are, um, on it. And it's, uh, one way of you checking and just making sure if there's any loose units out there on the town, somebody will report it will come up on on on the app, and then you know who to look for. You know, if you see these people approaching, don't let them in. No trouble. Um, so it works really well with that way, Um, but all [00:30:30] of these people on this group are also all looking for staff. There's just no hospitality staff available in New Zealand. So what's I mean, having run so many businesses over so many decades, What? Uh, what What's the basis of good bar staff? Ah, somebody who's got a really good memory, to be quite honest. Um, we've just taken on 22 new boys, um, to replace one we had, uh, um uh, a young gay boy came over from Australia three years ago and never worked a bar in his life, [00:31:00] but walked in here and said, I want to work here. And I said, Oh, do you got any experience? None at all. And he he was with us for three years, and, um, he would be a prime example. You've got to have a quick wit friendly, approachable, and be able to talk to people. That's, I think, one of the best things. That's, um, that you can have, um, people come to see you, so entertain them. Um, and this is what, um, our previous bar bartender, um, had done We've replaced him with two people. [00:31:30] Um, new to the industry. Never had any experience. Um, so it's been a tough battle trying to train them up, and especially when they start just before Christmas and New Year. And you're throwing them into a massive pool of, um, very popular cocktails with an expansive list. Um, how to make these drinks? You know, um, I think the labour school, um, needs to be appreciated a lot more in hospitality because it's damn hard worker. [00:32:00] Just getting back to that covering the two decades. 20 years. Because in that time, we've also had massive kind of political change in terms of civil unions have passed, um, the prostitution reform. Um, we had marriage, equality, a whole range of things, and and there there have been so many events here at, um relating to those particular even. Oh, yes, totally. Yeah. I think one of the, um the biggest one was the ball, uh, quality [00:32:30] ball. Um, when that was going through and we had it beaming on the big screen upstairs in the upstairs bar here at and Ms and the place was absolutely chock a block waiting for that vote to come through. And when it came through that it had passed, it was absolutely insane. We had, um, the TV TV one and TV three, um, ringing us up, and we need to come and interview you. This is a big step for LGBT community, you know, and uh, we go. Yeah, that's fine. Come on in. [00:33:00] And, um, it was so busy. It was just an insane night. Um, um, the TV cameras could not get into the bar, and we had to force our way out through the crowds onto the street to do the filming footage for the news that night. Um, it was insane. It was absolutely insane. And I think another one of the biggest events we did have here when I was just, um, capturing this was, um uh, 2011, the Asia Pacific Out games. Um, phenomenal. [00:33:30] The team that brought those games to New Zealand, um, did an outstanding job. Um, and we were doing seven days a week, and and I must say, taking, uh, a Friday night and a Saturday night take seven days a week. Um, it was hosting some of the most fabulous people I've ever met in my life sports people and still in contact with them today as well. Um, so that there's that's another one that's been outstanding. What's it like when this place just goes off? I mean, it must be the most amazing [00:34:00] feeling it is when it's when It's when it's super busy, but you don't get time to really enjoy it. I mean, you enjoy yourself during the buzz of the night, but when it's closing time, you're well prepared for the door to close. You know, because, um, it's just the hype. It gets you going and it's just, you know, and and you you get to that. You're fast pacing, fast, pacing yourself. Um, by the end of the night and it's just you don't sit down for hours. Um, because you know the atmosphere is electric. [00:34:30] But when the door closes and the last ones left and you get to sit down and say, Let's have a drink Um, that's really relaxing. But it's, um it's been It's been a fun ride. Absolute fun ride. So what was before pound full pound? We we had a, um a brief dabble with our first bar that we owned together, which was the dome, which is, uh, which is now the Welsh Dragon bar. Um um and [00:35:00] we had that. That was in 99 2000, which he did the, uh, New Year's Eve millennium, Um, New Year's Eve party at the dome. Um, it was a tough one for us. Uh, we'd been working in a previous bar, and then we decided that it's about time that we were making a lot of money for other people, and it was about time we started doing it for ourselves. So we, um we had, uh the mayor at that stage was Mark Blum, [00:35:30] and, uh, the dome before that had been a a variation of, um, restaurants. But originally, it was an old public toilet. And, um, there was a Greek Turkish kebab shop in there at the time that had closed down, and we saw that it was available for lease. So we thought, Oh, that could be make a great bar because it had a bit of a garden area out, out, out, [00:36:00] out The end to it. Um, it was fantastic. And, uh, so we approached Mark, and, um, he didn't even realise it. But even even being an ex public to he's going Oh, do we own that? The council. I'm going. Yeah, you do. Um, so he managed and we the rent on that, um, was $500 a week, which was fantastic for So you had the northern dome, the southern dome. We built a bar in the middle piece. We refurbished all the, uh, the, um toilets. Uh, we spent a lot [00:36:30] of time working in the dome, actually, um, six months we took, um, stripping it back. And it was quite being an old public toilet from many years ago. There were big, um, archways in there that were painted over. We scraped off 17 layers of paint, and you could still read all the graffiti that was underneath that men had left notes for each other and or phone numbers from all these years ago. Um, which was absolutely amazing. But we sounded all those down. The writing all went eventually, we retain [00:37:00] them. They were beautiful Remo arches, and they're still there to this day. But, um, all the graffiti is gone. Um, which is a bit of a shame. Can you remember any of the graffiti you like? No, no, it was just, you know, being here at a certain certain time and, you know, um, usual stuff that you'd find written on toilet walls. I should imagine. Um but no, it's too long. I mean, it's 20 years ago, you know, because that was such a thing, wasn't it? Actually, you know, public toilets. A meeting ground. Well, it was cottages. It was the only place to go with homosexual. Was IEG or where did you go to meet like minded [00:37:30] people of the same milk? Um, so years Cottaging was definitely, um uh, uh, big in those days. Um, I think those years, um when I'm not sure exactly what year it closed down. But I think one of the first restaurants in there was the Taj. Um, And they did that fabulous fresco, um, or Frisco artwork on the ceiling, which is all made up of New Zealand poli politicians. Um, which is fabulous. That's still there to this day as well. Um, when we got out of them, we we [00:38:00] we actually only had the building for a year. Halfway through it, um, our finance dried up, and we needed to take on another business partner. Um, so we met up with a husband and wife and took them over and took them on as our business partner. Um, turned out to be the worst year of our life. Um, we ended up selling the business for a dollar for a transaction and got out of it. And that's when Palm was born. And, um, we had laid a new dance floor in the Southern Dome [00:38:30] and under that Southern dome 20 years later is still a, um, a tube. Um, it's got condoms in it. It's got a marijuana cigarette in it. It's got, um, all the news clippings about these two gay boys that were refurbishing these old public toilets that had been restaurants into this new, um, bar. Um, it's a time capsule, and 20 years later, it's still there. Nobody knows exactly where it is except us. Um, but when that building eventually falls over [00:39:00] or gets demolished, it'll be found. So a bit of history will, you know, unfold from that as well. And the pack of cards we used to sit every night. We had this, um, big group, a group of straight Boers, um, working for us. And they were really cool guys, Um and we'd we'd sit in the in the in the in the bar while we were making it. We, you know, turn off all the lights and pull the curtains over, and we'd sit there and and and drink beer and and play cards to the wee hours for these guys. So all those little memories that we had there, we put into the time capsule. [00:39:30] And they are, um, in the in the time capsule, um, at the dome. Now the dome is the other end of Courtney place, Um, or middle of the road. That's the address. The middle of the middle of the road. Yeah, because there's no physical address for it. It's just the dome. It used to be the dome piano, middle of the road. Courtney Place. What kind of clientele did that have? Because it was quite a different part of town. It was, um it was very again very, very mixed. Um, we do smart little things like cheese planters. And [00:40:00] and, um, uh, we used to cook in the They had a small kitchen in there. Um, but we worked very hard. We were managing the bar. We were doing it from opening time at, uh, 8 a. m. We used to open in the morning and we used to close at three o'clock in the morning and then go home, get two hours sleep, and go back. Um, and we'd be doing all the cooking and the cleaning. We were doing everything, Um, hence why we needed to get out of this business. And so just to confirm. So, um, the dome was the first one you [00:40:30] own together, and then subsequently all these other business all together you've been, uh, Pound. We had another business partner, a straight guy who was a good friend of ours. He was our business partner there. So it was, um, myself and Scottie and Dave and his wife. Um, we did that for six years, and we closed that one down and got out of there. But this is our soul. S and M is our sole one. Together with no business partners. I think you learn a lesson. We did. Yeah. So what was before [00:41:00] the dome before the dome, we can skip back to before the dome was Bojangles. Um And Bojangles came, um, as a result of, um, the previous gay bar, Caspers closing down overnight. And we didn't have a gay venue in Wellington. Um, I'd spent some time in the merchant navy and a friend of mine that owned um, two bars [00:41:30] in Wellington. One was called Barneys and the other one was Bojangles, and he decided to open up. One side is Barneys. Um oh, it's got There's a bit of a history in this building alone because previous to Barneys and Bojangles Alfie's nightclub had been in there. OK, so this is the building on the corner of what, Dixon and Dixon. And upstairs upstairs? Yeah, Yeah, um is a [00:42:00] Bojangles was turned into a jazz club, which never really worked. So when Caspers closed down, I approached my friend, who I used to be at sea with and said, Look, you've got two bars. One's going well, the other one's not going well. Why don't you give it to me? I'll turn into a gay bar. We can make some money, help you pay the rent. And we've all got, um, you know, roof over heads. So we did that. We did that for a couple of years. Um and then we decided that well, we were making the money and we weren't getting anything back from it. So that's when we left and opened the dome. OK, [00:42:30] And so what? What was that? Pound was 2000 to 2006. The dome was 99 2000. So it'd have to be 97 to 99. Around that era, Caspers must have been up to about 96. And so you worked in Casper Worked as Caspers. Yeah, that was owned by full. Um, we went there when he first [00:43:00] opened it himself and another gay boy, Dean Manning. We went there, and we were fronting the bar there. Um, great. And I think Casper was probably there for about five or six years as well. Um, I've never really been a good one for remembering dates. I just remember how long I spent in each basically, um, but yeah, they fun times we had there. Um, but the owner decided to, um, shift off to Australia. Um, and close it down overnight. It was a bit of a sad one, actually. I I'd been working [00:43:30] in the in the in in Casper on the Sunday evening, and the owner was pretty staunch for was pretty staunch that we didn't close before 3 a. m. Even if it was dead. Quiet. He go. No, no, you gotta stay up until 3 a. m. stay up at 3 a. m. And this one particular night he said to me, Oh, look, I've left my keys at home. I'm expecting a phone call. It's pretty quiet. You shoot off, I'll look after the bar, and I'll lock up when I leave. So I left the bar about one o'clock in the morning. Um, and the next [00:44:00] morning at nine. AMI, get a phone call from the office lady saying, Did you work last night and going? Yeah, Well, don't you leave on one o'clock? You know, the bar is gone, you know? What do you mean? The bar's gone? There's nothing here. Everything's gone. And I went No, no, I was there at one o'clock. She said, I'm telling you that I jumped straight into a taxi, came and walked into the bar, and it was empty. The kitchen, the ovens, the fridges, Um, all the liquor behind the bar, the glassware, all the poker machines, the pool table, the bats. It was just [00:44:30] an empty shell. The only thing left on the walls were mirrors that had been glued to the wall and he couldn't get off. Um, and that was well, at that stage, there was no other gay bar in town. Um, so what do we do? And I thought Howard's got a bar. That's when was came about, went around and saw him, and we started up a gay bar around there. Now I'm just getting slightly confused because Bojangles and Caspers are in completely different locations, aren't [00:45:00] they? Totally. So Bojangles and Alfie were in the same location on Cuba and yes, yeah, before was in there. It was a nightclub called Stardust, and that went belly up. And the Dorian Society was going in Willow Street village at that stage. Then Aie came to town through the, um Tony Kavi John, his boyfriend, Brett Shepherd, basically the out empire. They ran, um um, Out magazine. [00:45:30] They had the Victoria Spa sauna in Auckland. They had Alfie's in Auckland. They opened up, um, Elvis Sauna in Wellington. Elvis nightclub in Wellington. Um, they had a stronghold on the gay community. That was that's went into, um, the building in Dixon Street where, um, Barneys and Bo jangles would eventually end up. Um was there again for five or six years. They closed [00:46:00] down, went out. That's when Howard came in and took over and into the venues. And so a, um that was what, mid eighties mid eighties? Yeah, Yeah. They used to bring the bloomer shows down with Georgina Barbers in it then and they used to bring the entertainment down from Auckland from the Auckland show because, as I said, those days there weren't many drag queens around town. So they bought all the, um, girls down from Auckland on a on A on a regular basis. Um, while we rounded up New Queens in Wellington. So when did you first meet Georgina [00:46:30] office Georgino, um, working at the Royal Oak Hotel. The old Royal Oak Hotel. Uh, on our flatmate was the D and the oaks coffee shop. I got a job through him, working there as a waiter and George buyer was working there as a night porter, and we all got to end up flatting together. So we've known each other since we were 17. [00:47:00] 18, um, and worked together and flatted together. And that's when the street pill came in and and Carmen's Coffee lounge. And, um yeah, the oaks, the Old Oaks Hotel, the bistro bar, the tavern bar, both famous throughout the years, like every sailor in town to go to the bistro bar and the little bar next door to that was the tavern bar was the gay bar. So there's always been a bit of a gay venue around that area. For some particular reason, I don't know. It's always been in like where [00:47:30] the building was or the one next door where pound was. Um, it's always been around The Dixon Street has always been quite a gay area. I'll come back to Royal Oak, um, shortly, but just to, um, talk a bit more about Bojangles. Can you describe what Bojangles what the kind of feel was like, What? It was a barren. Actually, it was a very barren um, building. Actually, it was just one big square and it had a stage, uh, a full length bar. When you walked up the stairs, you walked into the left. The bar ran the full [00:48:00] length as you walked in the door from right to left. Then there was a splattering of tables around the dance floor, a stage on the left dance floor in the middle of you in front of the chairs. And then there was just booths over by the windows, which were all curtained off. Um, DJ booth was to the right up the top end. Um, it was, um, and toilets were other side of the bar. It was a very nondescript building, actually. And it [00:48:30] was all, um, pink and blue walls. I think that was the fad colour at the time because most of the bars around town were painted pink and blue. Yeah, but it was a bit of a nondescript building, but it served a purpose for what we needed at the time and not having a venue. Uh, I don't think people are really worried about the decor. They just wanted a space and a place, you know? So it was good, right? And what kind of entertainment that was? Just drag entertainment. Yeah. Um, in fact, Polly fella did one of her first shows for me there. And, um, [00:49:00] I said to her that night, I'm actually not paying you for that show because it was shit. And you spent half your time facing the back wall because you didn't know the words. Um, she went away. She came back when we opened po and said, I've got my shit together. Do you want to give me another shot? I went too, right? Let's do it. And, um, she ended up becoming our head hostess girl and and doing little production shows. She's come a long way [00:49:30] and and we still laugh about this, you know, I said, Man that day, I wouldn't fucking pay you. You know, um, we still joke about it. Um um, but we're really good friends. Very, very good friends. And it's those ones that I look back to like Felicity and and somebody who's and and especially Polly, who's gauged her life and committed herself to it. And it's like most things Wellington, because the population becomes too small. So they have to head off overseas, um, to make a bigger and better name for themselves. And that's what they've all done. [00:50:00] You've mentioned a couple of times about, um giving people a chance, whether it's, uh, you know, the bar staff or poly. Why do you do that? I think it's it's really important that everybody has a chance at at doing something. Um, for example, these two new boys that we've just taken on, they know nothing. We're finding it hard to get really, really hard to get stuff we tend to think that it's better to train somebody out right from the word go. So you're giving them a chance as well, learning they're learning [00:50:30] something new as well. Um, I think we all came from humble beginnings. And if we hadn't been given that chance many years ago, we probably wouldn't be where we are today. And I think it's that belief that you have of of, um, give it a go. What have you got to lose? Um, and everybody deserves a second chance. Um, everybody deserves a first chance. Um, but it's just being there and making sure that people have got somewhere to go somewhere to to to to call, [00:51:00] comfortable in a home and the ability to expand their horizons. I suppose it's just Yeah, Everybody deserves a go. Everybody deserves a go. You know, you we've had run ins with people, but like, you know, um, you always give them that you the benefit of the doubt. You give them a second chance, and, um, haven't been stung too many times by that. Yeah, I just think it's really good that you do those sort of things, you know, makes life a lot easier and did somebody give you a chance earlier on? Um, [00:51:30] I probably, uh Well, when I first left home and came to Wellington, Um, I've done a few things that I, you know, not being too proud of. I worked the street, you know, worked at a Carmen's coffee lounge. Um, Georgina and I begin to drag quite recently, you know, frequently rather, and head off down to the nightclub or down to the Carmen's coffee lounge. Um, when I got to the stage in my life that I'd I liked performing shows, but I didn't want to be a drag queen. Um, so [00:52:00] I'd still do shows at Pound. But as soon as the shows were over, I'd go out the back and rip off the makeup because you can get back to being a boy. That was my enjoyment was just doing the stage shows. Um, I, I think when I previous years, when I first decided I didn't want to be a drag queen, I wasn't a drag queen. I was a gay boy. Um, I went away to sea, and, um, it wasn't very easy to get to get away to see in those days. Um, but somebody afforded me the opportunity to be able to do that. And when I look back, [00:52:30] I think it's probably one of the, uh, one of the best jobs I've ever had in the world. It was a learning curve for me. I learned a lot. Um, I probably worked with some of the most staunchest heterosexual men in the world being seamen. Um, even at the point of locking your cabin door at night. Um um, But I learned a lot. And all of those men are still, um, good mates of mine today. Um, but yeah, if I hadn't had the opportunity given to me to go away to see, I wouldn't have the wealth of knowledge that I've got now about the hospitality industry. [00:53:00] Caspers, where was that street? Um, it used to be a great restaurant up the end of Edward Street called the Mexican Cantina. And there was AAA. Bar had opened up, um, beneath an office tower. It didn't last very long. And, um, I was working in the bamboo bar at that stage. Second time around, Um, and yeah, I was looking for a [00:53:30] change. Been back to the the bamboo bar um, I worked there for about a year or so. Then we revamped it, closed it down, changed all the decor and haunting back to the old bistro and not the bistro. The hotel downstairs was the bistro bar, and the tavern bar upstairs was, um the more sedate lounge, uh, was a cocktail bar called the Toledo Bar. And that's where all the, um, if you want to drink a pint of beer, you go to the tavern bar. But if you wanted to have [00:54:00] a little social etiquette and drink for the rich puffs upstairs, you'd go upstairs to the Toledo Bar. So back in the bamboo bar, it had worked its time as the decor it had, so we decided to close it down and revamp it and reopen it up again. Um, as the Toledo Bar and namesake of the old site, Um, that went for a few years until Caspers came along. And then I left there. Another gay chap took over managing the Toledo bar, and I shot off to Caspers and describe Caspers for me. Casper was [00:54:30] great. It was, um, 33 levels, split levels. Um, on the top level, you'd walk in the front door. Hang. All right. It was a little bit landing sort of area. Then you went up three or four stairs and to a top deck. And, uh, that was the, um, the pool table area. So you had a pool table area there? Um, come back down the stairs again. There's a little landing full of tables and chairs and things. Then the bar was in the middle section, um, down through a set of double set doors was the dance floor DJ booth, and [00:55:00] eventually would also become the Poki room. Um, terracotta walls, great place, great fun. Lots of good times. Very again. Mixed clientele. Um, I think straight people just like going to gay gay venues because they create a an atmosphere and also one of security for women. Um, so I think it's just one of the things we always inherit. Gay venues are going to be known as safe places. So they attract certain clientele. And was the Dr performance there as well? Yeah. Yeah. We used to do drag [00:55:30] there. Gosh. Yeah. And we used to get a few of the dikes up doing numbers and things like that. Um we we'd create a little stage. It wasn't there permanently. We'd sort of pull one up out of beer crates and whacko and top decking on it and then staple some pretty paper around the edge to give us a bit of a stage. Yeah, we had a lot of fun there. There was dragged there. Then in those days, Yeah. And were you saying that the Dorian Club was also operating at the same time when Alfie first came to town? Um, it was It was was the nail in the coffin [00:56:00] for the Dorian Society. I joined the Dorian Society when it was down in Lampton. Um, and in those days, um, you had to sign on to be a member. Every member was given a key to the bottom door. Um, strict instructions that you never let anybody else in. Um, uh, you always only let yourself and, uh, sort of you'd open the door. Then you climb three flights of stairs, get to the top, ring a bell door there with the little [00:56:30] the little curtain would pop back. Oh, yes. You remember and say I'd let you in. Um, in those days, it was strictly a gay man. Only, um, over the years, it got raided a couple of times by the cops. Um, basically, because it didn't have a liquor licence. Um, eventually, they, um, moved out of Lambton Quay and moved to the Wall Street village. Uh, and that's when things started to change a wee bit there. Um, women were allowed to come in. Um, you could bring [00:57:00] a guest, but you had to sign them in, and you had to vouch for them. And I think in those days, they were charging, uh, $4 to get in and $8 for a guest to get in. Um, all the alcohol was free again because it didn't have a liquor licence. Um, but they weren't. They were basically giving the alcohol away. Just charging an entry fee. Um, which was quite legal understanding, I believe for those days, Um, but then came to town, um, as Wellington's first really licenced gay nightclub. And that was the end of the road [00:57:30] for the Dorian. Um, Elvis basically came and took over. Everybody fled around there. They could go to a bar that was licenced and didn't have to worry about the police or anything like that. So the Dorian Society eventually closed its doors. And that's such a huge shift going from, um, the Dorian Society, which was behind closed doors. Well, literally a couple of closed doors to to a bar that was out there in the public and open. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I mean, they made such a AAA fantastic reputation in Auckland. [00:58:00] Um, they had nothing to lose. They were, um, uh, often referred to as the out empire. Um, because they had their finger in the pie. Um, these men were very instrumental in pushing through homosexual law reform as well through their Out magazine, all their publications, Um, their saunas. Alfie's nightclub. So they built up a fair reputation. Um, and so the next best step step for them was to move to Wellington and corner the market. And they did it. They did it very well. [00:58:30] So this is right in the middle or around homosexual law reform in the so, I mean, God, Pink Dragon, I think was still going in those days. So we're talking that, you know, things were potentially still illegal for what made Brett, Tony Kavi and Brett Shepherd. What made them. Um, I think it was just the determination that they took bills to court. If I remember rightly, uh, about Norman Jones and Jeff Bray. Book, um, the fight they had with those. [00:59:00] And I think Wellington, um, would have been Bill Logan. Auckland was was Brett Shepherd, Tony Kavi, and John, his partner. Um, but through their expense to Wellington, they they could get more workings happening there. Um, Logan would have been the with Fran Wild. The trail blaze of homosexual law reform down here, Um, and going on, we used to go to those marches at a Knox church in, and the hatred was was venomous, absolutely [00:59:30] venomous. Um, but yeah, eventually left town, and Wellington was left on its own again. Caspers had had opened up and bamboo Bar had gone to Toledo. And yeah, it's been it's been a bit of a fun ride and worked in most most gay venues around Wellington. Actually, the Dorian Society did. Did you call it the Dorian Club or society? It originally started off. I remember right as the Dorian Society. It was originally the Dorian Society, but we just called it Dorian Club was where we used to go on a Friday and [01:00:00] Saturday night. Do you know, um, where abouts in was? It's got to be somewhere around about it was opposite, um, somewhere around D IC. But on the opposite side of the road and I, I I'm sure, um, it's there was old houses there. Three story old houses there. Um, it's got to be somewhere around. Little feather we have is now somewhere in that opposite D IC, [01:00:30] but not quite down as far as CODIS and stains on the other side of the road. And can you describe, like, who was a member? That was all gay men. I mean I mean, um, we were talking about the Cottages earlier on the town hall beat famous beat in Wellington. Um, most guys would go to the Dorian Society that would close up at one o'clock in the morning. So if they didn't meet anybody there, then they off down to the beat down at the library. Um, but so it was really members. You'd go from the bar [01:01:00] to the Dorian Club, um, and and dance away there till one o'clock in the morning. So it was all just people gay guys in the community that got members it started off with, Um uh uh, Fergus Dick, I do believe case coo, um Cooper. Jack Cooper. I think originally the Dorian Society, from what I remember started from a group of elderly gay men that wanted a safe place for [01:01:30] people such as themselves. And they used to have regular meetings on a Friday night and the downstairs bar at the old Abel Tasman Hotel. That's where it originally started from, if I recall. And then they started up the Dorian Society, which was in a smaller venue, some around the Tasman, in an old building. But then they got the premises in Lambton Quay and it moved down there. And that was up three flights of stairs just again. [01:02:00] Just a big spare room. Old, um, for tables and old chairs and a dance floor. Um, it was humble beginnings for for the queer community. But it was ours, and it was a safe place to go to. What was it like for you? Um I mean, I certainly remember my first time being in a either in a club full of gay people or an audience full of gay people. What was it like for you? Going to somewhere like the dory and then just being surrounded by by queer people? [01:02:30] I don't know. I think in those days it was It was like, You know, um, we were drinking in the bar, and we were all underage. You you'd see the cops coming. You'd raise that one, do at three different entrances. You know, I say cops are coming out. We go go and hide in the toilets. And they caught on to that. Um, but But you you you know, it was just you. You were drinking in a in a what was literally a public bar, but was frequented by transsexuals and and gay men and the odd dyke, um, [01:03:00] lesbian, you know. So we were already drinking that environment of of, of devious people of the same because probably referred to in those days. Um, then we'd leave. Oh, come on. It's It's 10 o'clock. The club will be starting to pick up now. So you'd all leave the bar at 10 o'clock and head off to the door side to say we was no different from drinking in a bar. Really? I think when Alfie came to town. We've been to a and been to other staircase in forth street and big nightclubs like that. Um, but [01:03:30] to have our own one in Wellington was, um it was a good breakthrough. Fabulous breakthrough. Never really had the the, um the fear of of not drinking with people of my own or always just got on with people and whatever environment there is, you know. So you've mentioned, uh, the royal oak. And I'm just wondering, can you tell me about that? Because it seems to me that, um, that was a central place in Wellington for lots of people to come. Was was look, the bistro bar, [01:04:00] um, I think they were the the public bar on the main street side. At one stage had the longest wooden bar in the Southern Hemisphere. On the right hand side on the Dixon Street side was the best story bar, um, entrance at either end of the building. Um, big row of red telephone boxes out the front. Um, the bistro was synonymous with Japanese seamen and and and and home boats and all the seamen from overseas. And [01:04:30] it was one of those places that every ship coming to New Zealand. If you're in Wellington, the bistro bar is the place. You go, um, you could get whatever you wanted there. I mean, you could order a, you know, um, a leather jacket at two o'clock in the afternoon and be wearing it by six. you know. Yeah, sure. What colour do you want? What size you want? It was it was one of those places, Um, and the scraps, you know, the flying jugs and all that. It was, you know, it was a phenomenal all the all the trains went there, and, um, it was full of Korean fishermen and Japanese seamen, and it was like, um, [01:05:00] paying top dollar for jigger jig. You know, um, so that's where all the train went to was the bistro bar? Um, absolutely famous behind the district. If you walked in the the centre entrance, Um, for the the hotel. If you turn right, you'd go into the bistro bar, you could walk through, and just behind the bistro bar was, um, a little wee [01:05:30] bar. It was called the club bar, if I remember rightly. And that was famous for the Dutch. The manager at that time, Hay was Dutch, so he'd started up a little Dutch club where the Dutch immigrants would go into the club, though, and you'd walk in right opposite where the club bar was. You'd hang a left sharp U turn, and you'd be in the tavern bar, which was where all the young gay boys would go and, you know, and we would drink out. You know, I think God, this cheap half [01:06:00] pint of lager or something, just But it was honest and a lot of the older queens, Um uh, people that used to work for farmers, um, one of the older boys there, and and old metre. You know, old Bill, the metre reader. And he would hold court. He'd at the same table in the tavern bar, and and he was an old queen, and all us young pretty princesses would hang around Bill. He'd look after us, you know? So we felt safe and secure. They were characters. Um uh, it was just the most. There was never [01:06:30] any trouble in there. Um, if it was in anywhere, it was gonna be in the bistro, he'd walk through there and duck here comes another jug. But the tavern bar wasn't like that. It was just people of the same. It was comfortable. Little space. Um, probably no bigger than where we are now to down where the bar is. Um, yeah. It was a very small bar, but again had three entrances, so you can get in and out if you saw the police come in. Um, we used to look after each other, like I said in the old days. And I see that sort of thing happening these days. What? What would [01:07:00] people drink? What kind of drinks? All in those. Oh, God. Look, you're talking about back in those days, the gin and tonic, double gin and tonic was $2. 50. But of course, we're all, you know, bloody on the bones of our ass and work in cafes and things like that. Um, so it was a lager, you know? And you knew you learned how to make a lager last a long time. You know, um, nobody was rich in those days. 10 shillings was a lot of money. Um, it was great. It was good timing. Um, but it was just Yeah. Drink cheap spirits. or, you know, steers were were two bucks each or something in those days. [01:07:30] It was really cheap drinking. When you look at today's standards Yeah, And you mentioned earlier about the police, and I'm wondering, how did the police, Um I mean, did the police raid things like, um, the oh every Friday and Saturday night every Friday and Saturday night, you'd be there, but And it was just like, um, if you saw the cops, But somebody, Come on, the cops are outside. Bang, bang your little scarper because you could scarper out of the tavern, bar down the little corridor into reception and come out the front doors of the hotel. So there's, like, all these little different alleyways from the tavern bar to get [01:08:00] in and out of, um, you could skip through the Dutch, the Dutch club bar. There's another alleyway which lead out to an alleyway down the back of the public bar so you could get out on the main street side. There was just little rabbit warrens everywhere, so you could scarper from the police any time you like. It's all you had to know was that they were coming and you know, Um, they used to write now and again, they'd catch you, but I we never got taken to court or anything like that. They just take our number us on, you know, our name and us on the and get out of here. And I don't want to catch you in here again. Sort of thing. You know, [01:08:30] um, of course, you go back next Friday as you did. You know, suckers for punishment. Yeah. Do you think it was, um, from from your perspective, was there any kind of, like, police persecution of of kind of queer communities? Um, yeah, totally. Totally. Um, even back for the working girls on the street. I think it was tough. In the old days, we never really got harassed. I never got harassed. Um, Always found them quite diplomatic. They take your name, get out of here. I don't want to catch you here again. Sort of thing. Um, I have heard stories of people being, um, dealt [01:09:00] to by the police, but in saying that because we were in today's society and standing, um, times have changed. We get a lot of cops drinking in the bar. We get lots of cooler cops coming next door for coffee. Uh, we've got a friend of ours who's the head of the police dive squad. And he was finding out some information for us one day and he walked into the bar. He's the only policeman ever to have walked in here in 14 years, and everybody was in panic mode. What a copy. What the cops here for? That's all right. It's only Jeff. [01:09:30] Don't worry about Jeff. They leave you alone. And I think it's just people's attitudes have changed. There's so many, um, lesbian police officers. Now there's gay cops there. I know a couple of gay cops. Um, most of them are great. Great attitude. And you know, spade spade, let's move on. I think the police burned a few bridges in the old days, and I think we need to learn to move on from that. Um, we've all learned from the past, and I think the police have as well um, move on. Society has changed, you know, burn that bridge, [01:10:00] build a new one. So where was the first hospitality or what was the first hospitality job you had? Where? First hospitality job. Yeah, It goes way back. Um, I was working for the coachman, Um um, up on the terrace as a waiter during during lunch time and dinner service. Um, and then I got out of there, and I'd, uh, done my time in the in the in the, um, merchant Navy as well came ashore. I, [01:10:30] um, ended up working for my partner at the time, Um, who was managing Cobb and in the Hotel Saint George. Um, And then I started working there, and I was working in the Cobb bar, and then I left there and I went to work for the Western Park on road. And, um, I was doing lunches upstairs in the in the conservatory bar. A couple of gay boys working up there doing the, um, lunch and dinner service and the cocktail bar upstairs in the conservatory so I'd help them do the lunch, the [01:11:00] lunch time service. Then I'd go downstairs and open up the bar downstairs, which was called the Gillespie Bar. And, um, I was in control of that. It was my bar and had the place pumping, pumping, pumping. It was great. Um, and the boss used to leave me alone. I don't know what you're doing, but you're making money. So they'd leave me alone. And then I got hint Hunted, um, from a very good friend of mine who rang me up and said, Oh, are you looking at changing your job anytime soon? And I wonder why is that? She said, we we we've, um, looking for a new manager [01:11:30] for the bamboo bar. And it's a little gay bar, and we just think you'd be perfect for it. Oh, yes, I went down and, um, did the interview and started, um, the next week, bang. And that was where my forte really came in working for the LGBT community. I mean, I met people in different variations and roles and bars and restaurants that I worked in. But my first full time job working for the gay community was in the bamboo bar, and I still think it was back in those days. The bamboo bar was [01:12:00] all done out, and, um, very Somerset mourn sort of furniture. It had all that bamboo arched seating and, um, big scoot. Um, Julie type curtains. The folder like like you see in the picture theatre. They pulled his friend they all raise up. They were scooped right across the ceiling, and they were set up in all this bamboo furniture. And, um, James Todd, an interior designer and a gay guy. He refurbished them all, And it was his bamboo [01:12:30] furniture with, um, very bright orange and red poppies all over it. It was It was really out there for its time, really out there for its time. Um, and it was a great place. I still think the bamboo bar going back. I think you never forget one of your first ones. So it's probably for me. Um, I still say it's probably one of the best gay bars than Wellington, but it's it's timing. I suppose people say no, we love bound, and we love this one. And we love that one. You know, Um, but I think it's just where you have the most good [01:13:00] memories from. That would be the bamboo. And so you were working at the bamboo. Yeah, that's, uh, God's eighties seventies eighties, because I'd done the bamboo for number of years, and then I left there. Some friends of ours had taken over the Old Dominion Tavern and Tory Street, which is now more wars owned by Graham Moore. Graham Moore had bought the Dominion Tavern. [01:13:30] He had future plans for that site. Um, which is obvious today. Um, but in the meantime, he ran the Dominion Tavern as a pub, but had a great sportsman's bar upstairs. He got some friends of ours and a husband and wife team to, um, come and manage it for him. And? And, um, so they didn't They revamped. Um, a small bar there, um, called the the the cafe bar, and she rang me up and said, What are you doing up there? And I'm going home. She [01:14:00] said, Do you need to change? I want you to do it. But I've been here a while now. So we got this. We got this, um, cafe and bar. Um, she said, but I want to turn into a bit of a gay bar because she got I had a bit of a following. So wherever I was going to people to follow. So I left the bamboo, went down there, worked for a couple of years there, took all the crowd with me, and then I sort of got to the stage. Well, You know, I've been here two years now, and I'm still on the same wage. And I bought the crowd here, and I think it's about time you looked after me a bit better. So I approached, you [01:14:30] know, a little bit of a upping the ante we really can't afford at the moment. I don't know. We got six weeks to think about it, so I gave them six weeks and they couldn't up the ante. So I resigned. I'd only been at home two days, and at that stage, the old old Roy hotel had gone. They built the new edifice, um, bars and that had come and gone in there. Um, the bamboo bar closed down after I left, [01:15:00] and I went to work for the DOMING. And I was there for a couple of years. Then I got called up by a gentleman by the name of Graham Hunt, who was probably the best boss I've ever had in my life. And he rang me up and he said, um, hi. It's Graham hunting, you know, he said, I understand. Um, you used to work at the bamboo, and I went, Yes, I did. And he said. And I understand you've just left the job you've got and I went, yes, I have. And he said, Well, I've just bought the pub he said, And the bamboo bar closed after you left. Um, [01:15:30] I want to reopen it. Listen, I I'd like you to come back and work for me. I said to my look, um, I really like going forward, not backwards. And he went, Come and have a chat with me He said it costs nothing to talk. And I went, Oh yeah, fair enough. So I've been out of this job two days, made an appointment, went over and saw him and sat down, and he said, Look, when you left, it closed down. It's been closed ever since. I want to reopen it. I want you to go back in there because when you were there, it was making [01:16:00] money. I want you to take it over and I went no. And he said, Well, I'll tell you what In those days, it was a lot of money. He said, All I need you to do in that bar is $3000 a week. And, he said, and anything else after that I'll give you 17% of the profit. And are you all right, then? So I walked in out of there, walked into the bar next door, started cleaning it all up, gave me three or four days to tie it all up. We were ready to roll open the doors and bang. It was [01:16:30] back. Um, it was fantastic. It was great. I can honestly say this guy was true to his word. Graham Hunt. And I've told him to his face and the best boss I've had. Well, the boss that's honestly told the truth, I would probably be at that stage one of the best paid barmen in Wellington. Um, just for managing this small bar. Um, I was walking walking out of there with well, over a grand a week and and payments, um, my back pocket was burning holes, baby. It was the best job I ever had. It was, like, paid Well, um, so, yeah, that's my history. [01:17:00] So the was the bamboo bar after Alfie. So Alfie was the first kind of gay bar, and then bamboo was that there had been a, um a small run of gay friendly venues, opening up around Wellington at that stage. Also, um, and street at the, um, at the new Barrett's Hotel and Willow Street upstairs. There. Um, Marcus Darley took that over, um, and he was managing it and he opened up, um, a little [01:17:30] bar out the back called the bottoms up bar. Um, and that was kind of an up market and trendy, And it was all like going through that phase of chrome and silver and red and black. And that was, um, the the bottom up. Bottoms up. Um, bottoms up down the back there. There was also another bottoms up bar down at the old railway tavern. I don't know if you remember that one. That was that was upstairs. That's called the bottoms Up. Bottoms up as well. Um, so there's been a few venues. I think people [01:18:00] in those days look towards the pink dollar. Gay boys, you know, double, um no Children sort of thing. So they were willing to open up to get the gay community in there because they knew gay community was going to spend dollars. Um, So there's been a few over the years here and just to confirm so in the bamboo was in upper. It was in, um, in the oaks complex, up the stairs on the left hand side, The manor street entrance. So you'd walk, um, down Manor Street? Um, walk in the main doors up a flight of stairs. [01:18:30] You'd go right to the straight bar, which is the can't remember the name of that one now, but you turn left to the bamboo bar. Um, but everybody knew it was gay. Bar. So what was it in relation to pound opposite side of the building? Palm was on the Dickson street side and what used to be sovereign impound used when it first opened, the new complex was the oaks braces, [01:19:00] and the oaks tavern was on the opposite side. So you had, um, the big main bar on the manna street side, the bamboo bar. And then there was a little we, um, link way that would take you across to the other side to the main street side. But that would take you into it was part of the the the Oaks brassy. It was the pavilion bar when it first opened up. That was part of the oaks complex. And then when the pavilion [01:19:30] bar closed down. No, it wasn't. Pavilion Bar was the big straight bar. Bamboo bar was at the back. It was Jumbo's restaurant was cross. It was also part of the the the pub deal that closed down eventually. That's when the oaks brassy, went in there after the oaks Bracey It was soul bar Soul bar to la Luna, la Luna to pound all on that. So it's always [01:20:00] always been a hospitality venue in in the Oaks complex. And it sounds like, actually, um, hospitality. Uh, establishments don't necessarily last that long, but you guys have actually lasted a huge amount of time. I think we'd probably be one of the longest gay bars in Wellington, this current one at the present time, 14 years. Just about to start our 15th. Um, I think that just comes down to, um our attitude, I suppose. Um, we know a lot of people. Um [01:20:30] uh, our wedding was high profile, so that sort of gave us a bit of background. Um, it's amazing who we We find out even now, We I'm, um I'm working on something for, um, a family member about their, um, gay cousin who who, um, unfortunately died of an HIV AIDS related illness in 92. Um, and of course, this particular chap was from a, um, very strict Roman Catholic Irish family. Um, [01:21:00] used to write a column for um Out magazine called capital Comment, Um, and couldn't really be out as much as he wanted to, because the father was so religious, very catholic, and he himself was going to be a priest at one stage himself. Um, and this? Yeah, this person that I'm working with, the family members I'm working with has just moved back from Auckland right now. And he's asking, So do you know so and so going? Well, the name rings a bell, and he showed me a photograph, [01:21:30] and I guess I do know this person. And he said, Well, I I've been, um, incarcerated with taking over all of his stuff, and he said I want to bring him a little bit more out open into the family, um, as he should have been. Um, So we're just trying to work on finding people that will still remember this guy. Um, yeah, but he's going like, you know, uh, God, you know, I've been following you two for years. You know, you you're quite high profile and you've done so much and you've done this and done that. So I think [01:22:00] that's probably why we have such a long activity.

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VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 10 o'clock closing; 1960s; 1970s; 2000s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Avalon Television Studios; BBC; Bas Tubert; Bethany Home (Wellington); Betty Goodbox award (Dorian Society); Bill Sutch; Bistro bar; Blue Note Bar; Body Positive; Brian Tamaki; Britannia Hotel; Buzz O'Bumble; COVID-19 (coronavirus); COVID-19 lockdown; COVID-19 vaccination; Candlelight Memorials; Carmen Rupe; Carmen's Curio Shop (second location); Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Cees Kooge; Chrissy Witoko; Close Up (television); Club Ivy; Club bar (Royal Oak Hotel); Colin Moyle; Daniel Fielding; David Halls; David Hindley; Des Smith; Dixon Street; Dorian Society; Dorian Society (former site); Duke of Edinburgh Hotel; Enough is Enough (2004, Destiny Church rally); Eve van Grafhorst; Evergreen Coffee House; Frank Lund (a. k. a. Toni Roget); Fringe Festival (Wellington); Georgina Beyer; HIV / AIDS; Hotel St George; Hudson and Halls (television); Hutt Valley Memorial Technical College; Invercargill; Island Bay; James Shaw; Jevan Goulter; John Jolliff; John Key; Jonathan Dennis; Kirkcaldie and Stains; Lee Sutton; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Lew Pryme; Lindsay Yeo; Logan Brown; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Manners Street; Marion Street; Member of Parliament; NFU (National Film Unit); NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; Norman Jones; On the Corner (play, 2007); Outward Bound; Peter Hudson; Peter Sinclair; Radio Windy; Rainbow Wellington; Raumati; Robert Jones; Roger Swanson; Ron Irvine; Royal Vauxhall Tavern (London); Salvation Army; San Francisco Bath House; TVNZ (Television New Zealand); Tavern bar (Royal Oak Hotel); Taylors Mistake (Christchurch); Telethon (1976); Television New Zealand Archive; The Balcony / Le Balcon; The Carlton Hotel (Willis Street); The Green Parrot Cafe (Wellington); The Purple Onion; Toledo bar (Royal Oak Hotel); Toni Roget (aka Frank Lund); Trevor Morley; United Kingdom; Victoria Street; Waipukurau; Wellington; Wellington Public Library toilet; Winston Peters; acceptance; anti-COVID 19 vaccination protest; bisexual; blood donation; camp; children; civil unions; classical gay; closet; cottaging; cricket; faggot; gay; gay liberation movement; glam; good meat; homo; homosexual; homosexual law reform; how's your father; hypocrisy; marriage; marriage equality; mask; ostracisation; parties; pasties; played straight; police; poof; poofter; public bar; public toilet; rugby; sailor; saunas; sex education; sex work; skiing; sport; striptease; television; toll call; tranny; twink; window dresser
DATE: 10 November 2021
YEAR: 2021
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Kevin talks about growing up in the 1960s, friendship with Carmen Rupe and the LGBTI rainbow scene in Wellington in the 1970s and later.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 1 December 2021
TEXT: 00:00 It was very hard in the early days to understand about sex, because we did not get sex education. So when things suddenly started to happen, you sort of talked amongst the boys and a couple of times you look, see who's got the biggest and what the differences and things like that. But I never thought of it in a sex way. I just thought it was one of those things that happened to guys. By default I spent a lot of time with boys in those days, we played sport together and but at the same times we were Prefects in schools and there were girls there. There was a mixed match school so often the girls would partner with boys for dances or girl/girl or boy/boy and things like that. But it never really struck me as being a homosexual thing. 00:00:58 Q: So what kind of year are we talking ? A: We're talking early 60s. Q: And what type school was it ? It was a Polytech but not quite ……. Hutt Valley Memorial Technical College. But it was no longer strictly Technical. Longer term I was quite comfortable with girls at school. And I was also quite comfortable with boys. And I had just an open, what I call a 1960s sort of approach to everything, even to trying a few things out like the old marijuana, which we all seem to have done. But it didn't go with me. Things like that. I was playing good cricket and rugby. I found that trying to smoke anything was not good for my health, I'd be playing sport, I'd get batting at cricket and I'd be up 10 - 20 runs and I'd be running out of steam. So I had to have a big change in there. I went to Outward Bound School. Got sponsored by the company. After Outward Bound (course) was over it really, really made me wake up to myself that I had leadership skills. I won't go into why here but basically that's what it was about - to give you confidence. I came back on the (Interisland) ferry and a guy coming back was from Waipukurau. I was 21 and he was 19. We got to know each other and gotCoincidentally he came back to work in Wellington at Kodak in Victoria Street. The Television place where I worked was further down where what is now the Public librarySix months on from that meeting there was a Outwards Bound Old Boys ReUnion of people who meet and fund-raise to get boys not so fortunate, and that type of thing, onto a course. And we ended up getting a bit drunk again and went back to his flat. And he had an argument with the person he was living with there. He was asked to leave, nothing to do with me being there. But it was obviously some argument. So we piled all his stuff into my car. I couldn't go home at that stage because I’d had a few so we drove to Island Bay and slept on the beach. At that time that was my first real relationship …… we went flatting. We shared a flat in Overtoun Terrace with one of my colleagues from the TV and we found he happened to be gay. So he introduced us more or less to the scene in those days about 1970 71 72. And then we ended up with part-time extra jobs as I wanted to go overseas at some stage. We got a job at the St. George (Hotel) through somebody in the Ski Club who owned the St George. He (then) introduced us to the guy at the Britannia Bar just down the road (Willis Street) and my mate worked in the small front Cocktail bar which was actually a top class pick-up girl place which opened my eyes to a few things when I heard what these ladies were doing there! And then we were asked to go to the Royal Oak (Hotel) upstairs because we were honest, what was in the til at the end of night was what should be there. There was no giving away drinks. I mean, we had no intent to do things like that because we thought we would lose our jobs. And we were quite (gay-wise) good “meat”. So then we were asked to work in the Tavern Bar which was another bar in the Royal Oak which was gay. And in those days there were two entrances. One went from Dixon Street and the other came from Manners Street. There were other bars on the ground floor also. One was called the Bistro where all the trannies and hookers went in and picked up the Japanese (Squid boat) sailors and that was Oh God ! The other one was a Public Bar on Manners Street. And there was a big hallway that ran from Manners Street to Dixon Street. What would happen is not many guys in the gay scene would come in the Dixon Street entrance but rather the Manners Street entrance and look as though they were going into the Public Bar but actually walk through and come through the door of the Tavern Bar. The two of us worked together and what happened there often you would be asked to take your shirt off ? You get tipped 50 cents or something like that but we played the game quite well. The Bar shut at 10 o'clock. And by 10. 15pm everyone had to leave and then we had to clean up by 10. 30pm. We got introduced to the (gay) Dorian Club that way. People took us to the Dorian clubrooms (in Lambton Quay opposite Kirkcaldies). But, to me, the interesting thing to me was the type of people that turned up there.[00:05:58] I was quite naïve in my early 20s and things I know today, many years on, are quite a lot obviously. But the experience there was quite comforting, you felt safe. But what happened once (at the Dorian) was really a funny story. One night I was checking entry tickets at the bottom of the stairs where we used to sell tickets for the booze (no money changed hands upstairs) and then you go up the stairs and here was a big guy DJ from Radio Windy pumping the music – he was called Trundle. It was really, really hip cool …. Trundle covered all ages. When I was a new boy there at that time I was seen as such a “good boy”. Each year they have awards ….. awards for anything and you have to have some humour when you win one. I got the award for “Betty Good Box”. Yes, it was quite, quite an honour on my part ! (Yeah Right !)But what then happened was, we were trucking along one time and they (Committee) had been having a little bit of trouble with money. So they had asked me to be Treasurer. I became Treasurer for 6 months because I evidently looked pretty straight up. It was obvious that things weren’t totally right. But we turned it all around. We had a little office at the top of the stairs and a little safe in there. It was all cash remember, in those days. Everyone had a (door) key. So one night we were there someone came up the stairs and right behind him were policemen. I shat my pants because I was up the top of the stairs busy putting some money in the safe. So I shut the door quickly and I stayed at the top of the stairs whilst 2 of the cops went in (to the main room); the music went down and they went around and to see who was there. And I thought Shit we've been raided. But it wasn't. It wasn't really what we thought. And I started chatting to this guy there, a Policeman, and I asked what's going on and he said ” It’s all good. We are just looking for someone who has committed a theft.” They didn’t arrest anyone, they just left. It turned out longer term they were looking for a gay guy who had been on a cruise ship to Fiji and who had actually burgled or robbed people on the boat. They did eventually find him but that's another story.[00:08:10] Next day, I'm playing rugby at Kilbirnie Park. And for some reason, about three minutes into the game somebody got seriously hurt. So the whole game stopped. In those days I was on the Wing (where the more glamour boys go hehe) and I was just standing there with the ball because in those days wings threw the ball in to the ugly forwards and a couple of guys come over and we were just chatting. I looked at one and thought that face looks familiar and asked him “What time did you finish your shift?.” And the guy looked at me and he said “No, no”. Well, anyway, it turns out they had some policemen in the team and some other sort of other thing like that. So we had a good beer afterward with everyone coming over – I felt like flavour of the month - without people giving away what, what it was about. But yeah, I found it interesting and what they said to me was they weren't out after the gay people because, you know, we weren't in the toilets, they knew we were in a place where were keeping in our group. And that’s basically what I found out later on from one of the Policemen many years later at Carmen’s birthday function when we discussed it and he said “Yes, it was good to have people we knew that weren't doing badly”. But from a personal point of view of that night was still a big memory. At the time I was mixing with lots of gay guys, but I was also in a mixed flat as well. Eventually my life took off from there - I went overseas for a few years but when I came back and met people things had changed. Overseas I went to London and I went to the Vauxhall Tavern and there I saw Lee Sutton and the real class drag acts like Miss Shuttlewick – not what you saw in New Zealand – Carmen was only the closest to them – I am not knocking the other ones down but ones with real class here I just didn't see them back home. But Carmen, I put Carmen on Telethon in 1976 when I was working for TV2 and we had hardly staff in Wellington on TV so sort of, by default, all ended up working on the Telethon and I conned Carmen and asked her to go on Telethon. I had to tell her what it was as no one here knew what it was so Carmen agreed and came to the Telethon. The deal was that she would join the panel and then answer the phones and at 3am in the morning, I had asked Carmen if some of her Girls could come down and do a dance, but they had to have Patsies on their boobs and not only on the boobs ! But no strip, no naked stripping, because we're on TV. So that was okay. Didn't go that well with Auckland, (Wellington gonna have striptease), but I think in the end, they took them nationwide because they had nothing on Auckland at 3am that exciting when that was happening. On the night Carmen turned up early. She was meant to come about 1am. But she turned up about 11. 30pm because no-one was in her club. They were all home watching TV ! At the time she arrived at the Show Building in John Street Bas Tubert was on the panel (he was a popular radio announcer man). Bas saw Carmen and got up (from the Panel) and walked towards Carmen (forgetting he was on-camera and walking out of shot). Being TV2 we only had 4 cameras, none couldn't exactly turn quickly when Carmen arrived. But somehow in the control room, they more or less guessed what was going on as Bas bought Carmen over and sat her down, no mic nothing, beside him and they got going. Well anyway the phones started coming very beserk with everyone wanting to talk to Carmen. So we moved her over there (where the many phones were.) And she did raise a lot of money. I mean, it was a novelty thing, I think but I don't know. Her Girls then turned up early too; they sat there and had their long coats on (mid-winter). Thankfully they had music organised. It was pretty cool because some people turned up to do something and we didn't have a backing band to go behind them. So they had to bring their own music somehow. But anyway, we were going along quite happily and Auckland called for any help with anything. They did a very good show (nationwide) and then did another one at 4. 30am. It became a bit embarrassing because Buzz O’ Bumble was not supposed to be on with Lindsey Yeo until 6am. But we suddenly had these young school kid fans arriving with parents and still the near naked show girls going round with money buckets, one of the girls had lost one of her patsies. I turned around and one of the guys working with me and said “Oh shit !” and he said “Don’t fret, at some stage in life kids have to learn something!” So we did have a good time.[00:13:05] But those were the days where I found an acceptance of people not looking strangely at people, you know, there was homophobia because at that stage, the 1986 thing hadn't come through, the Law change hadn't happened. But it was from an underlying point of view I was always worried that I might lose my job. But turning that around the people who came to New Zealand in the 60s to help New Zealand television develop came from British stage and theatre and they'd done some television experience. Most of them were gay and you work with them and it didn't bother you. But it was quite exciting. Some of the guys who worked with us were very good looking and exciting. I think we would call them twinks these days, but we didn't realise it. You just saw yourself as yourself. But no, things moved on. But the good thing about it was that television got rid of glass ceiling for women because it lifted them up totally into because you had to have women’s programmes. And you also end up with people like Hudson and Halls, Peter Sinclair, Lew Pryme - a lot of people come out of the closet in that respect. But they didn't really get beaten up or anything. But at the same time, I've always worried myself that I was going to get scrunched in the bottom of a (rugby) ruck somewhere, you know, but people were quite surprised, in some respects, that I may even have that leaning because I just played straight. But that's just me. Life went on. Those were the early days but once I did go to some parties at Raumati (beach) where there was a group of guys, Case and John and a well known group from Wellington. We got invited up to Raumati. They had hired a house like an Airbnb type thing now but in those days just a house up there for about two weeks at Christmas, everybody piled up there. Q: Who was Case ? A: Case Cooge. He was working in a Printing shop called Zodiac in Courtenay Place in Wellington. Because I knew him and I was on a Ski club committee we used him for all our printing. This is the sort of liaisons that happened. You help each other. But we go up there and it would have been before I went overseas, so it would have been 1972. We got invited up there so my flatmate and I were ready to trundle up there but before we went we got a phone call; remember this was the days before cell-phones – it was a toll call from Raumati – and “Would we pay the charge !” And that was quite funny ! What they wanted was another case of Gin. They had been up there only about three or four days. Their supplies must have been were running a bit low !!! So we went and got some Gin and put it on their account. When we arrived up there’s a guy from London who works in Harrods who was a Kiwi (visiting) and him and I got on quite well so it was a good time. But that was up there (Raumati) and what they'd done – the place didn't have curtains in some parts in the kitchen in the bedrooms, so they put newspaper up for privacy. We went midnight swimming rather than midday swimming, but some people had a habit of losing their togs,, they couldn’t find them in the dark. It was quite fun. I think had been daylight it would have been quite fun ! It was things like that you did have close groups that become friends and could trust each other. That was my thing. The trust was the thing yeah. But I was quite surprised when over time as I got more and more into the circle with the people there they were quite genuine. There were one or two idiots screaming a bit like queens that shouldn’thave been so loud.[00:17:33] Going on from there I did get married. Carmen and I had had a good discussion about things often. Carmen once said ” The greatest gift that you can have is have children”. And I asked her when I did an interview many years later with her if she enjoyed her life as it was. But yes, I would agree with her, you know, do what gives you meaning to your life. So I wasn't totally gay, you know, neither on the far left on the radar nor was I far right on it. I was sort of a middle but some people didn't like that. They’d say you can't sleep with a guy and you can’t also sleep with a girl? Well, that's their your problem, not mine. But I just see people as they are …. people. Q:What do you call it? Is it love? A: That I don't know. There are times when I will help people because in my early days older people helped me whether it be at work or whatever. And as I got older, I saw the younger ones struggling. I went onto Rainbow Wellington Executive Board (formally Gap - Gay Association of Professionals). I was on the Board for 10 years. We did a lot of things. We did the Civil Union and , lobbying on marriage issues. We dealt with Blood donation issues, things like HIV. In that retrospect with HIV, there are quite a few broadcasting people that died from it. And some were close to me. I had worked with them side-by-side editing film or helping to research something. And one of the saddest things I saw was a really talented guy one day that I hadn't seen him for a while at Avalon and he said “Hi, Phil. Good to see you” I turned around and it was like walking death coming at me completely glazed skin. Sunken eyes. No, it was tragic. I didn't know what to say. And of all the people, nobody told me - people just said always he’s got cancer. And that was the way it was but he was a lovely guy. But then it turned out another one passed away. One used to be a talented Head of Department when he passed away. Their names are recorded everywhere (including on a big Quilt). And they have a Aids Memorial each year in Wellington, so I go to that. I also met Daniel Fielding. He was working at the bar that I was working at and also working at a Mens’ Sauna - and that was my introduction to saunas ! Q: What was the bar that you're working at called ? A: The Bluenote, on the corner of Cuba and Vivian Streets. It was in the red light district. I wrote and produced a stage show in 2007 called “On the Corner” for the Fringe Festival. What that was about was written in 6 weeks because as a bar we had changed the name to The Fringe because were trying to get a wider sort of patronage. It was an all-night bar commonly known as the “last resort”. We were well-known to the gay community. But you had anything in there, even a “lady” who had a good way of throwing chairs across the room, right across, I mean, she would have won the shotput at the Olympics, when she lost it, or someone called her something unkind …. that was it! These days she is a model of society, and gone quite a high way ! Basically, with the show I drew a line in the sand -1986 - and I said, let's create the district as it was in Vivian Street, going backwards. I went to the Prostitutes Collective and got all their old Newsletters of the era. I learned that Prostitutes do not sell sex - they sell time. In fact, their information was very good so I wrote a script from parts and I used a lot of my tenants who were staying upstairs to act in the play. Eventually overall, we had 20 people in the play![00:21:28] I used the (licenced) Karaoke music because we already had the music rights. I wanted the cast to sing because most of the Queens in the London bars would sing alive. So in each skit they sung live except for where they had to do fast costume changes on stage we pre-recorded and they mimed. In a way you didn't notice because people are moving quickly. The play was booked for 8 days because no other shows had been booked for the first week of the Festival which went for 3 weeks. The youngest cast member was 19 and the oldest was about 72 or 74. John Joliffe was narrator, later on he was in the first Civil Union (in New Zealand). His partner Des was also in the show. We had a show half time break and they “sung” the Chesdale Cheese song ……We are the boys from over the hill,We really know our sex,There’s nothing better than usingCondoms from DurexAnd then they, the black singlet guys, started throwing the sponsor’s products into the audience and saying “Go for it” because it was half time. So it was a one real fun show. We had 5 actors in the Carmen skit after I had got permission from Carmen to do a segment about her. Elsewhere there were skits of different things during what happened in the era, being lonely in the street, to drugs and all that. We had all these people in the show and as I was writing the script, I was going upstairs occasionally and asking do you want to be in it? Can you do a drag act or something like that. We had some straight boys in it – one sang “Sexual Healing” as not all things such as Prostitution had been sorted out until later after the Reform Law in 1986. So I included that success in the play. I got one of our bar DJs to sing the song who was also a male stripper. He stripped to his jockstrap each night but on the final night I didn't know that we were going to get the full monty! It was one of those shows that just developed! I had the one where the section was on Carman - we did the teacup sequence, which is where you have (in Carmen’s Coffee Lounge) a cup upside down on a saucer means you want straight sex, if he wanted to be entertained by a trannie he would lay his cup on a side, if you wanted a gay boy he would place his saucer on top of the cup. But you know, that was in Carmen’s biography all the way back. So we used that as a skit and that went down like nothing on earth with the audience. The show stopped every night ! Once I had a problem because we could not rehearse the show on the bar site. I had made the show in segments and rehearsed off-site. Then we did one final run through at the bar. At the last minute I realised that there was a few things missing. John Joliff was the linking narrator (between scenes). He was stationed behind the bar, and it was like a TV News thing -you have a news item intro and then go to the news item. In this show we had John with the intro and then you have the act on stage. But (in this case) I had nothing written in the script for when John talks to Carmen as she arrives, because she's coming from the Balcony (International Stage Lounge) end then goes to the Coffee Lounge. She's got to get (onto the stage) to the coffee club, which is just a walk across to the stage. But I hadn't written the script. And the same problem at the end of thing. I hadn't got her offstage. So I said to Parekatuku Moore, a lovely Māori lady who was playing Carmen, to take the Carmen biography book home and find something. I had so many little things to do elsewhere that I had to fix up before the next night’s opening. I had an awesome Director to help which was great but both of us did not really know on opening night what was going to happen when Carmen came on. We had a packed house every night, mostly older people 30+. When I say that, a lot of them are relating to what was going on.[00:25:27] Carmen ” arrived” and she started walking across to the stage and she said: “Hello, Albert. Parliament not sitting tonight ?“and everyone laughed then “Hello David - the flowers those gladiolus I gave you – did your Mum like them ?” “Yes thankyou“ - the audience really related to all that. And she got up on stage and went through the skit of the cups and all. Then she started walking off the stage and I wondered what next? As she starts walking off the stage standing up tall, a rather large lady and she asked “Do I hear somebody asking me if I was pregnant ?”. And she cracks her fan loudly glaring at the audience and says “Well, actually, I am”. And then “What’s that? Do I know who the father was?” And flapping her fan loudly again “Do I have eyes in the back of my head ? “ Well, every night, the show stopped. It just stopped ! It just drove everybody to standing applause – it was brilliant acting. But what I liked about it also was the acceptance that people weren't calling insults. And when we were finishing the last thing I script on a show like this is end with a curtain call with “I am What I am” And we did that. And every night we got a standing ovation. But the thing was I split it (the show) into two halves. A reviewer criticised me because some of the second half was a bit dragged out (pardon the pun). We decided we should have a drinks break to help the bar take. It's tough in the bar trade ! But we did well for half an hour because everyone's chatting away, you know. We had a catastrophe on opening night with Toni Roget. Toni,(Frankie) was a drag queen from way back. And he stormed on stage singing the song “There’s a right way to do it”. And bear in mind he was 72. On the first night as he was storming onto the stage he tripped up in his high heels and sprained his ankle. So for every night for the next 7 nights of the show he soaked his feet in a bucket of water and ice and drank the nerves away with Gin so he could get on stage. A real trouper. It was one of those sort of, well, show things that happen! At the end of the Fringe Festival we were invited to go down to San Francisco Bar for the Awards. Everyone was having drinks and Awards were being given out and somebody asked me “What are you doing here? You're meant to be up there. They just called you out!” “And what the hell do you mean?” “We won and award for the most colourful show in the Fringe”. We had we won the Honorable Best Theatre Award ! So I had to unexpectedly step up and accept. But what it did show to me was the acceptance of society had changed from when I was trying to put myself in the closet. For that reason. “I am what I am”. And that's basically it.[00:28:17] Q: What year was that ? A: This was 2007. Q: You've covered well, a decade's worth of material and there's so much in there. Do you mind if we just go back and ask you a couple of questions about particularly in the days when this is well before homosexual law reform so we're talking about the 60s. What was how were homosexuals or bisexuals treated?[00:28:44] A: Bisexuals were probably looked on by the gay community as guys who don’t fit alongside them - you're not gay or we used to get ostracised= you don't go with those and that was that one, yeah. The rugby clubs and that sometimes thought you were possibly a poof or whatever but because of that I’d look hopefully straight I think. I got worried that somebody will find out but I got away with a lot of things because I worked in TV and they sometimes called me Glam. But now it was due to things that you didn't do. I mean, it was an underlying thing that it was not right to be a homo. It was uncomfortable.[00:29:35] Q: What kind of words would they use?[00:29:39] A: Faggot. Poofta. I honestly just cant remember in fine detail but I touched on it because you do have guys there who obviously, the way they are born in their system, were gay and I mean they were window dressers and things like that. And they obviously go What's wrong with him? It's not in your face. It's like John Inman in “Are You Being Served”, clap your hands around, by all means, but you're not going to be in the face of somebody who's straight and you're trying to straighten them out to get them to be your friend, you know. That thing was, ironically, there was a lot of British shows on TV which were gay. That was interesting part. In New Zealand Hudson and Halls got openly accepted, laughed at, you know, got accepted. And that I would say that would be the first, I could be wrong, but the first couple to play openly in New Zealand as gay people on screen in 1976.[00:30:39] Was there one of those things where you could become in certain situations, but actually, you knew when to kind of pull back actually[00:30:47] Oh, yeah, hell yeah. Let's say some of my friends when I had a big birthday party at the end to celebrate my 50th. We had a big, big party. I had my Bank manager there, my Travel agent, my best school friend from Primary School, a mixture of everybody in my life, even my bloody dentist for God’s sake and others I have forgotten – I just invited them along because it was an important stage in my life. But a lot of people who knew me did not know me. And to me, they suddenly see that explains a lot. Yeah, it was a great party. I mean, you have a party in the Bluenote Bar and in comes the big drag queen Amanda La Whore, (who I was managing at the time) decides to sing “I am what I am” to the speaker's outside facing State Highway One. And floating out dancing out the bar with the microphone in the middle of the State Highway One traffic lights and everything coming to a standstill while she does a number at my birthday party I mean, that was class ! The other class was when we had John Key, the Prime Minister who used to come to Logan Brown (restaurant) across the road from where we lived. And one of the things we did for him was to climb out onto the balcony, take the speakers out and put on a brief gay show. Two decks below was the Security guys guarding him because he was at the window upstairs across the street ! And we put on a show for him. We would do jokes like that and get away with the – that 2008 or 2009. On Tuesday nights he would dine at Logan Brown. I mean, Wellington is small …. (Winston) Peters used to go to the Green Parrot. Wellington sometimes isn't so small you know? That happened one night when I came back from an overseas trip and went to the Green Parrot and Winnie came in with James Shaw (Greens) !!![00:33:01] Really, I mean, behind the scenes I had a lot to do with Parliament at one stage, they have got a job to do and have some time to relax but at the same time, you'll get some pretty stodgy; the blowhards you know like Norman Jones and we've got some people we never hear of ! 00:33:26] Q: So in the 60s, how did you meet other people from the Rainbow community? A: I didn't know there was a community I mean, yeah, in the 60s, the first half of the 60’s I was at College and later I started in TV so a gay community to me didn't exist like now. Later on, I did meet gay people, but I wouldn't say there was a community of people then. It wasn't until I got to the Dorian in the 70s it became apparent. I am just trying to think when we went down south --- there was a group in Christchurch. My friend and I used to go skiing at Mount Hutt and Porter Heights. We would go down on the Ferry (to Lyttleton) at 8 o’clock at night on Friday night. In those days I think Mal (Vaughan) was on then boats in those days. We'd go down to Lyttleton. We would get on the train or the Christchurch boys would pick us up - I think most the time we got on the train and got picked up at the Christchurch station. They took us straight to the mountains and they did things like laying out a white tablecloth with a bloody Candelabra silver with candles preparing for lunch – the whole bloody lot in the car park! At night we'd go to a party in someone’s place like Fendalton, really classy places and look at some (gay) movies that someone smuggled in from overseas. But yeah, all that was fun. We stayed at somebody's flat. They were really good to us. On one summer at Christmas we went down to Taylor's Mistake near Christchurch for a week. Somebody had a bach on the beach there; there were a lot of gay people. It was fun. I was familiar, as I said with Case Cooge I mentioned earlier - we went to places in Island Bay (in Wellington). Ironically, next door to where we live now was a very famous gay-scene house. There was a Symphony Orchestra pianist living there - he was a gay guy who passed away many years ago. He used to have a grand piano in the living room. A neighbour, who lived a few doors down, told me it was a real gay scene with men dressing up as ladies and so on. A year ago, his friend staying there passed away also. Whilst people were cleaning the property up they found lots of important history documentation and photos of the gay scene years ago. I think LAGANZ have rescued all that and going through it to permanently archive the find.[00:36:46] Did you ever name it what you were ? Like, did you ever you know, say gay or bisexual? I mean, or was it just, this is who somebody was.[00:36:56] I don't think I knew the word gay. Not really. No, I never knew that. It wasn't until many years later I thought it was like gay. I could be wrong, but I don't recall the word gay earlier. Maybe in London when I went in 1973. It was a big eye opener London, I went to the gay Vauxhall Tavern on Tuesday nights and you'd go to Pig and Whistle in Camden Town for Sunday elevenses and there was a lot of Kiwis and Australians there. Then we would go to Hampstead Heath and sunbathe in the Men’s area. And then we go down to the Green Man, I think that was what it was called for the Sunday roast dinner night and it was all gay. The routine tended to help get to know a lot of people. And I worked in the BBC. That was classical gay !. The Commissionaire, who liked me really much that I was able to grab his hat off and wear it upstairs editing that day with the hat on. I mean, there was a lot of fun. But yeah, it was very more open in London than it was in New Zealand at the time.[00:38:06] So do you feel like in the late 60s, did you feel repressed or liberated because I'm thinking that, you know, gay liberation didn't happen until well, you know, the kind of activism stuff didn't happen until say the late 60s early 70s[00:38:21] Bear in mind that NZ Pub closing was 6pm and then in 1967, 10 o'clock, and the age was 21. I ignored the law in terms of you know what the hell, you don't have to tell me what to do. That was the thing. I said stuff you - what happens privately is none of the state’s business and that was my attitude at that age. You know, it's like the people in the thing that happened yesterday, the protest demonstration, along the lines of stuff the lot of you, I am not going to do this. They complained yesterday, but what I'm saying is, I didn't see that was right. I'm not going to do something then run away and let them say ” Hey, you've done it, you know, it's naughty.” But there were a lot people in Wellington, especially gay, wanting to get on with their life and back then in the Dorian they were from all walks of life.[00:39:21] So how did you come across the Dorian club?[00:39:25] We were working part-time at the Tavern Bar and as Barmen we had to be up out by 10. 30pm. So people often say to us “What are you doing after” and ask would we like to come have a drink with them. Of course we wanted to drink because we were actually not allowed to drink when working. So we walked down to the Dorian Club from Dixon Street to Lambton Quay to opposite Kirkaldies, or now it is David Jones. Later the Dorian moved up to Willis Street Village because the building got pulled down.[00:39:57] Q: And the one opposite David Jones what was it like – on the 1st floor, not the Ground floor ? A: On the first floor. It had a staircase to above, I think it was Hannah’s Shoe shop, but I could be wrong. There was a small door there and after that you went upstairs and then it stepped up another half step to get to the dancing there. I think toilets next for some reason, also the little office. But yeah, it was good. They sometimes had Sunday parties there also. I think once we had ladies there as I remember taking my lady flatmates. But a lot of guys didn’t want women there. In those days when we worked at the Royal Oak those were still the days of the Lounge bar upstairs which was for women; that's where you took your partner. So it was segregated. The Public bar was Men, the Tavern Bar was men, but not so much the Bistro as there was trannies and some straights. But upstairs was a nice lounge bar. And in those days when I looked back in history, the lounge bars were for ladies. It was same at the Britannia - there the Public bar was for men and mostly people working at the Dominion (newspaper) and those days printing it and all that and then the bar at the front was for ladies mostly; but some there for what’s the word for “high class” ? It was a sort of secret.[00:41:40] Q: Where was the Britannia ? A: Going down Willis Street down basically where the Metro New World is now. Q: So basically across the world from Unity Books ? A: Yes, Unity Books. Up the street before that on the corner you had Duke of Edinburgh bar - that was a mixture of people upstairs, then you had the St George across the road but that was pretty straight and then as you went down you came to the Britannia and the Carlton and in that bar you would have a lot of us TV people drinking to about seven and then you went up to Duke. So it was a lot of creative people, some left to go home to the wife and kids given time but the others of us went up and there was a “nice smell” in the air occasionally ![00:42:24] Q: So there was a bar on literally every corner ! A: Yeah, back then but also in those days Cuba Street become Cuba Mall in 67 when I started working – the Oaks became the Pound at one stage and that was upstairs and that would have been the Banana Bar before that, Mal and Scotty would tell you about those ones, before they came it was the Oaks when the building got demolished[00:43:04] Q: The Tavern Bar - was that known outside of Rainbow circles as a kind of a rainbow meeting place ?[00:43:13] I'll put it this way, generally yes. But, having said that you'd have people mistakenly walking in, look around, and you would smile and ask them what they would like to drink. Then they started ooh ahhh not sure; it was like playing whoo and out they go and stumble into the Bistro Bar ! Bear in mind it was the middle of town at a hotel which had hotel rooms above and they come down to drink at the bar and one hot night some English guys mistakenly ended up in the Tavern ……. and after a few drinks some guys took their shirts off and excited some gay locals – but really they were straight and really belonged in the Bistro ! But you just don’t know - I never worked on Sunday nights where you served hotel guests. Sometimes someone would come in and say “Shit there’s lot of poofs in here” and argue a bit and get shunted of the bar. I didn't experience much of this but then again, I wasn't a full time barman.[00:44:34] Q: Just getting back to the Dorian, what kind of people would be going to the Dorian ?[00:44:43] A: All age, any age. You get the familiar faces. I mean, really known around town. And businessmen. We had an MP who once came to have a look at the place. It wasn’t Joe Walding. He got caught out in a Palmerston North scandal. But no, there were other scandals - one in Christchurch with Gerald O’Brien was a complete farce. You know, the guy involved was a lovely guy and good politician but he got accused of things that, if looked at logically, just couldn't happen. In the end the teenage kids involved were out to get money. I don't even think they knew his name. But those sorts of things came out and I was really annoyed about that. There were other allegations, the Moyle affair in the 70s for example.[00:45:48] Q: The 1970s had a number of politicians being accused of homosexuality or what have you and it was a kind of like using homosexuality as a political weapon was it not?[00:46:03] A: Yes, it was. And with this I mean, Lindsey Yeo got called out about going innocently to a Lower Hutt toilet and he got accused of whatever. And it wasn't right. And I thought and sometimes wondered that when you look who was running the newspapers at the time I could see the slant because we were accused of being left wing; well we are not. But don't do a story that's not true and don't stack up. it is. I mean, ironically, the back of our building in Victoria Street overlooked the Public toilets by the Library that Moyle was supposed to have gotten into trouble and to be honest, I was so naive I did not know what went on. Something I did go to these places occasionally and do a standard do-do but I was aware in when I played cricket in the late 60s out at Kilbirnie there was toilets where there now is a swimming pool. We had finished early and I sat in the car and I was just going to go and I noticed guys were sitting in cars watching me and when I look back now I know what was happening to go in there. I didn’t go in as I was waiting for my friend’s game to finish. Every now and again a guy would come out and once one rushed back in within 2 minutes. I thought he must have got the trots or something. But no, that was what I learnt was a Cottage. It wasn't my scene. For me toilets were for toilets and nothing else.[00:47:41] Q: So is the television New Zealand building on where the Central Police Station is now in Victoria Street ?[00:47:49] A: No no, where the Public Library now is. If you look at photos. there was a Carpet shop. There was a office block next to it which was us (TV). We were production offices and preparation of programmes; and there was Waring Taylor Street studios. Q: Was this before 1975. A: Yes, we were there until April 1975 until Avalon opened. We did post production down there that wasn't studio based and then we went up to the studio and all the programmes played from Waring Taylor Street. So we were there and I think it was a Liquor store under Carmen's and a shoe shop on the corner but you went upstairs to the Balcony. But the thing about that was I volunteered to work a lot of night shifts because I was doing studies and other things. TV had just bought a lot of equipment and editing machines but not enough so I had to start doing night shifts which was unusual in those days. Bear in mind there was no Sunday shopping and Friday late nights and all that. So I volunteered to do night shifts. That was fine. Come in at 5 and go home at 12. So it was having “morning tea” at 7pm, “lunch” about 10 o'clock at night. Well, on the second floor we were working, just me and my mate, and one time I was editing away and had to go to the toilet and the Mens’ toilets happened to be next to the urinal where you could look down on the Balcony below. And the window opened because it was a fire escape and all that. So anyway, when on a hot day like this, I'm looking out there and a voice suddenly goes “Hellooo, would you like some coffee?” And I look out and there's this lady sitting down, it was Carmen. Because it was a good offer and it was a strip club we climbed out the window, went down there and I've never seen people that have “fixtures” top and bottom before. And my colleague I cracked up and said “Oh, what is it?” They were getting dressed and making boobs up here and God knows what. And that was my first meeting of Carmen. She asked us what we were doing so later I was visiting the Coffee lounge in Vivian Street a lot she always asked me how TV was and things like that. She was really interested. And that's how we got a friendship going and how she got on Telethon but yeah, it was quite interesting that the first place we met was ironically just around the corner was the Moyle affair.[00:50:21] Thinking of your first meeting with Carmen what was your first impression when you met Carmen ?[00:50:29] My first impression was very professional; surprised to find it in Wellington. We were supposed to be a backwater you know, and when the first time when we met there was no Saturday day shopping, Pubs shutting at 10, you did not have the free and easy society we now have. But no, she was always glam. I edited her final farewell programme on “Close Up”: we did one on her leaving New Zealand. Paul Ransley was the journalist and you know, she knew I was around, I was going to edit it and she was quite happy to talk about things. But one of the most moving scenes we managed to get her to do was we had to end the programme somehow. And I said to her you know are you going to leave the suitcase behind with all the stuff or are you're going to get a kind boy to carry it or whatever? And she said No, but I'll do something for you. So she sat in front of a mirror with a light behind and her back to the camera; you couldn't see her face, and the light went slowly down as she takes off her wig ………. stands up …… and slowly walks off into the darkness. To me that was really powerful because she had stood for Mayor on all sorts of things, she'd made claims about naked beaches and we would be doing more of that soon. She was you know, in the forefront as she had Bob Jones behind her - she was wise as he probably paid the bills but yeah my conclusion first time was that she was a lady knowing what she was doing; it was unusual but there's no way she could be running something like that alone. For example she had the lady at the back of the Balcony who used to, (I can't quite remember her name, I think it was Gypsy,) but she would spin the vinyl record tracks always say in a deeeeep voice “And now we have for your pleasure ladies and gentlemen, ……….. and then she would start some crackling record and off the track it would go and jump and she would say “Oh fuck” and start it back again. But yeah, those are thingsand people I saw were entertained by that sort of thing. Lots of people came for that; some of the people surprised me - one of my cousins was a school teacher but he was sitting in the audience. There were people that you see around town going to a strip club. I went, well she had the gall to do it and it was sad it got demolished for a library. She ended up with a Curiosity Shop which was near the top of Cuba Street and that was another thing I didn't have much to do with as I never came up that part of town. But she was always there and had people talking about her.[00:53:20] Q: Can you describe the interior of the Balcony?[00:53:25] The Balcony had at the back. It was a big open hall type with seats, just normal seats, nothing fancy. Basically from the street side you came up stairs from Victoria Street. The DJ box had it’s back to Victoria Street. The stage was facing from east in those days. The stage was a big open area and they serve coffee and then drinks quietly somehow. A bottle of Coke may have an additive (spirit) with them as you notice the cap comes off quite quick ! Nobody got poisoned or anything like that. So you've got the music coming from the back and lots of lights on a big wide stage probably so many metres which I cannot remember, there was a curtain; but a lot of time they didn’t use the curtain. They come in from stage right and do their numbers and some would come into the audience as there was enough room to get amongst everybody. The dressing room was out the back. And of course you had, what I've described earlier, outside you could walk on a little bit of a deck which was the fire escape. Some of the shows surprised some people as to what it was the but I had an open mind, I mean, people live and people have got to go to work. I got invited to quite a few private functions which were “quite interesting”.[00:55:06] Q: How did the police react to Carmen or in particular things like the Balcony ?[00:55:13] A: I didn't notice this as I didn’t go there very much. I never saw Police cars outside even though you could park right outside. I think you could better follow up on that one with the Police guy that went to the 70th birthday party of Carmen. He really is the one that would be the expert because I honestly didn't have much contact with the Police – in those days as far as I was concerned Policemen wore Bobby hats and that was about it plus the grey Holden cars The only close thing I had with the Police was at the Dorian incident. That's when they were asking what your name and address was and all that shit. I did give my name straight. I wasn't doing like a few, did another way. The overall thing was I never really saw the Police do anything - I never saw any arrests – there were stories in a paper from time to time. But I never came across them in person.[00:56:18] Q: Do you think that was more if the Police knew where you were so like seeing the Dorian or at Carmen's that they were quite happy for that[00:56:31] A: I think the police accepted that these things werehappening and unless you went across the line or doing something that you shouldn't and you should have stopped. That was the thing. I don't think it was like we're gonna go out and find them like they did to the overstayers in Auckland. But bear in mind they were doing things they shouldn't really have done the way in that they did. But I don't think they had the resources to do it here but at the same time they're probably got more excited about chasing William Sutch and chasing Bill’s secret visits up Holloway Road than looking at the gay people if the gay people just kept to themselves. I think that would be my most important take on this.[00:57:23] Q : What about Carmen’s International Coffee Shop on Vivian Street - Can you describe that ?[00:57:29] Ironically that Salvation Army owned the building and land on one hand and on the other hand were very anti-gay. Many older gays have never forgiven them for what they did in protesting against the Homosexual Reform Bill and donate to that cause. I'm in a hell of a bind here because I was adopted after I was born in Bethany just down the road from where Carmen’s was and that was a Salvation Army Hospital for Unmarried Mums. Had that not been the case if they didn’t care for my young Mum I would not have had a good start to life as I later found out. So I was torn from not ignoring Salvation Army. But as you go down Vivian Street, you'd start at the Bluenote Bar on the corner. The next was the noisy music place now called Vahalla then there was the “Hole in the Wall” – very much a bit naughty and then there was Chrissie Witoko’s Evergreen.[00:58:27] Okay, so this is actually heading East and we're going down from the intersection of Cuba and Vivian.[00:58:35] Yes, On the opposite side was Emmanuel Papadopoulos office, a Sex shop on the corner with all different toys and inside that a lot of guys went in and just released themselves in the little booths watching something. Then you had the strip club above owned by Papadopoulos and opposite was the Purple Onion strip club. Across from that was the big Strip Club - I think it was owned by somebody in Auckland. But later it was renamed and became LIKS. Below was the Men’s Cigar Bar. And that's now a Recycling shop. Next to that was Air New Zealand's head offices and then have got more little shops down to the corner. Carmen’s was actually further away from that. You had to physically get there if you're in the middle of the Red-Light District. Marion Street was the workers on the game. Marion Street at one stage had 60 people working there and if you headed back up Cuba Street up to Abel Smith Street the other girls were working their overnight thing. In the old days you could drive around in a circle down Cuba, up Marion; you can't do it now because of the way the Motorway is. So people would drive around and make a choice and then go back and pick up. Other times they didn’t go back. In my day living upstairs from the Bluenote Bar we had one of the girls do just that, walking the street. It was winter and she had a lovely new fur coat given to her by a friend in Auckland. She'd gone out to Marion Street in it one night early. We were watching the rugby in the flat. She loved the coat and said it was nice and warm and she came back about three quarters of an hour later and she was covered in eggs going everywhere. She said some bastards threw eggs at me. It was a very colourful pattern for her coat but not really nice! She had come back from walking the street. And they were driving in a car. You don't see that much of that these days. Hookups are on the Internet. But Carmen’s was further away. She used to live partly upstairs at one stage. When you got to Carmen’s it was not razzle dazzle - you had to know it was there. In the door was a little window and the thing would open and I would usually hear “Hymmmmm – You look OK. You can come in”[01:01:06] Q: Was that on the ground floor actually.[01:01:08] A: Yeah, yeah, the upstairs was another issue !. So what you had inside is a flamboyant thing like an Egyptian parlour. I think you'll see photos of it but the thing was like we would be sitting there and someone else would be sitting nearby who had probably ordered something and while you were looking at others in the room that person had disappeared. They gone through the bloody curtain and gone up for a bit of how's your father ! That was one time I was there. If you wanted to go to the toilets you had to walk through the kitchen and there was always “Doris” doing the dishes. She'd always turn around and have a look at you and if you said something rude, bear in mind straights were going to Carmen’s (and Politicians), she would take a high-heel shoe off waving it at them and chase them through the Lounge - It was really quite funny when it was crowded. The Coffee Lounge itself really had something about it - there had a mystique about it -but this was Carmen – she knew everybody and greeted everyone -she would see me and ask how the television is going; how are you today ….. you know it's like that it might have been at your home. Another place like that was the Evergreen which was more or less where you got Toasties from and it was basically for the working people on the street. They did awesome big toasted sandwiches and things like that but Carmen’s was really, really good coffee and also the CocaCola which really tasted a lot like what I called Classic Coke – it had that extra formula ! You did not have to pay to get in. Once or twice we did for some reason I can’t remember. At the Balcony it was always a paid ticket. Q: How much would it cost? A: Of course God knows - maybe 50 cents. Mind you when I started way back at work I got paid between pay £525 a year which in those days may have been around $1,000.[01:03:22] Q: Did people actually tip the dancers?[01:03:26] A: People did yes They slipped a dollar in – I cannot remember what they were – it all changed ! I cannot remember how the hell we they did it. The one that I really liked was the girl and banana on a motorcycle, it was really funny thing to come and see. With the tipping I just can't ring a bell on how it was done because we had one penny and a half penny then there was 5 cents 10 cents and also had in those days shillings, florins and crowns ![01:04:14] Q: It's not like putting a dollar bill in there ……A: Nah, maybe in the breast cup or the undies or something like that. We had a lot of funOver time I got a lot more confident to be myself. Not in people's face, but definitely realistic and pretended it didn’t exist. That was a problem I had in the early days.[01:04:42] Q: I'm thinking of say of when gay liberation things became a lot more political in the 70s. How did that impact on the Rainbow scene? Particularly, if you've got a generation or a number of generations actually, don't want to be particularly ruffling feathers. How did that work ?[01:05:04] A: My problem I answering that question simply because I got married late 70s and we basically ended up out of town. So when the kids came along you're focused on them. Occasionally I would come and see Mal at a bar and he would always say hello and that but my honest scene in terms of clubs and everything from about late 70s to God knows when - 96 something like that - I don't know. I just wasn't on the (Rainbow) scene. I went on a lot of business trips and I might have gone and had drinks in a gay bar with colleagues. When I went to Auckland on business, it was at the Empire with Dudley playing the piano; he was an Air NZ airline steward in those days. You get to know people like that. And it was comforting as they're just doing what they want to do. But no, I was more or less off the scene.[01:06:03] Q: What was it like then seeing the media coverage of say, Homosexual Law reform in the mid 80s? Because there was a lot of coverage.[01:06:13] A: Yes there was. They were very brave. We had Norman Jones (Invercargill MP against the Reform) - he was wicked with his bloody walking stick flying around, you wouldn’t want to come across the range of it. But he knew it. There were really, strong feelings, the SSI will be numbered, our job was to come across it. And I thought the people were very brave that were getting out in support of the Bill. Ironically, David Hindley was one who worked for TV at the time. I did not really know David outside of work, I never knew he was taking photos and things like that (of the protests). A few years ago I went over to Vietnam and Cambodia and I knew he was in Cambodia. We caught up and he has done some amazing things documenting the protest era. Archives and things like that are important. I moved into sorting out setting up the Television Archives in New Zealand in 1982. And that has been 10 years of my life. So you get to know the importance of holding onto stuff and all that sort of thing. And balancing working out with computerisation what to do. The idea of making access to it at that time in 1985 is a hell of a lot easier with computers and the Internet now. I'm just looking out o k f the blue sky while we did this interview, and I'm thinking I've done a lot of blue sky stuff. You had to go on a pedestal and just think way back then and basically in my blue sky theming was that Archives had to be accessible to everyone. What’s the point of storing all this stuff ? And we used to have people who were also doing their own TV “archive” keeping stuff to look after but not looking at the other side of it. Money's required and you had to get out there and get some money. In my day I had stuff everywhere. So first thing was rounding items up off a wharf in Dunedin; out of a Panel Beater’s shop in Naenae sharing storage; things like that. But it made me very aware as it grew I went to Conferences and I thought, gee, this is a big industry, a very big one. And you end up writing the rules for the TV collections in New Zealand and people like Jonathan Dennis (of the Film Archive), were helping me alongside. We (TVNZ) took over National Film Unit in 1990. My role there was to assist the purchase. People were upset with the fact TVNZ had bought it. And I said no, what I want for New Zealand was the fact that they had NZ Newsreels from 1941 to current day under one roof. and in one place. And that, protected. I mean if TVNZ got sold to overseas we'd have to think of all those sorts of things. A lot of things you go through makes you feel important. And that's why I've kept a lot of notes and notebooks I've got on things. Photos, some of the photos I go back and look at are amazing. So your life goes along, at times it goes fast and things are put aside. I mean, I'm trying to look for photos for you right now. And I'm know somewhere amongst about 20,000 photos they are there. And I've also backed them up, but where on the backup disc are they – on that disk or that one or that one are over there !???![01:09:37] Q: Let's just call this one ! Earlier you mentioned about HIV. And I wonder, are you able to talk about how you became aware of that in the 80s?[01:09:47] A: Yeah, we just started hearing stories about gay people dying and reality of it to me personally, I just saw something happening. I didn't see it as affecting me because I was in a married environment with kids and not out in the gay community activities as such but at the same time I was in broadcasting. So, as I said earlier about Mark Westmoreland I did not know, they said it was cancer, I did not know that stage was HIV. I knew he was gay, there was no problem about that but I didn't realise that was early days that happened, and there was a couple of people I knew. I only took an interest in a sense that “Who do I know that could be possibly hurt by this and need support. But it didn't really happen. In later days of course we have Body Positive. I've been helping Ron Irvine with Sponsor stuff and helped his team as I met people who actually had it, and supporting and sympathising with them - not being sloppy or anything like that but just saying I've got to go for a ride up to some barbecue - would you love to come. Not ostracising and putting to one side not wanting to know, I never went down that track. But the HIV thing to me I wasn’t watching much TV. I was making TV at the time, but I didn't watch it much ! But later I worked in the Archives and saw lots of it. By then I wasn't making programmes. So no, I just can't really comment too much on it. But I knew it was bad. 01:11:31] Q Do you think there was ostracism coming from Rainbow communities to people with HIV?[01:11:37] A I think there was (at the time). I just think that there were people scared, you know, that they could get it. And if somebody's got a doubt they look 50 yards away from them you know, “I don't want to know this person” Then there's a lot of others who gave support. But it was a big unknown. I mean, you didn't know quite what it was. And we knew it affected gay people. But then we had that lovely little girl that got it. And then we had other things showing it was not just gay. Come on, this is a blood thing. And that's why when I was on the Rainbow Executive Board I got a bit annoyed because if you're doing blood test, you're taking blood donation in surely that blood must be tested before you put it into somebody. So why stop a person, a gay guy, doing it? Do a blood test to check the blood is fine and move on. It doesn't matter where it comes from. I don't know if they can technically say that it is not in there. But all I'm saying is I feel ostracised in that I could not go and donate blood. Some people can't donate blood anyway. It's like putting a mask on or things like that but with the latest COVID immunisation for example there are people who can't get immunised. What I'm saying is that they can’t take the vaccinations. But no, I got annoyed that there was people here who should just shut up their mouth up and think there for the Grace of God could go I. They should sit back and by doing so learn a bit more and say you can pick it up that way, talking to them saying you are not going to pick up AIDS by giving them a lift in a car down to the movie theatre or going to movies once or twice to get them out of the house. You're not going to get AIDS. And that basically I don't think people understood that totally.[01:13:39] Q: I think it has some really strong parallels for where we are now dealing with the COVID epidemic. We have what, just coming up to two years into the COVID epidemic. And interestingly, when in touch would work in Wellington, we haven't yet had an outbreak of the Delta variant.[01:14:02] A: It doesn't seem to have happened. Maybe because we are remote. But it's not been picked up in the waters.[01:14:08] Q: How has COVID you think impacted on local rainbow communities?[01:14:20] A: Made them cautious? There has been comparisons. I think some people will say of older ages pretty bad. I think on all of this, we need to take stock of where we're at. I mean, let's face it in early days of AIDS some people were not taking precautions and things like that until there were quite a few people getting seriously sick. So it was one of those things that were like, do I have the flu injection or not at my age. I had it once and it laid me flat for four days. Maybe I shouldn’t have had it and haven’t since. But I also took care of making sure that I stayed away from people coughing and things like that. But my Doctor says basically I'm quite a healthy soul so whenever I do get something I'll probably fight it quite well. But then again, I've seen healthy people that have died just recently very quickly. So you just don't know. The answer to your question really is that Rainbow people I know are pissed off with people who don't wear a masks and what you saw on television yesterday, I don't think you would have seen a gay person there. (at Parliament protest).[01:15:39] Q: That was a kind of a messy protest outside Parliament and it was like anti-vaxxers, anti-mandate, anti-government and suggestions ………. A: And that it was a return to back to the Communist Party. I mean, oh, really it just got out of control. I'll give you an example with the demonstration thing. We went to the Black Shirts thing of Destiny Church in 2004. I was there – after it was over I was standing up near the steps and there were a lot of Maori boys there in the black shirts. I don't think a lot really knew what the hell they were doing there to be honest. As we were walking away down to town a couple of the boys were walking together and asked “Sir do you know where the bars are ?” I asked are you of age and they said they were 18 and 20. I told them a lot of bars are all up town. If you want an all night bar you’ve got the Bluenote. They said they were down for the trip to Welly and somewhere there are some cuzzies here. At this we got on the bus and said maybe we will see you later tonight. So to put a long story short and not going to too much detail to it they ended up in the gay-friendly Bluenote Bar that night. I mean, it showed the hypocrisy of what went on at Parliament that day ….. they did not have a clue about the depth of the protest in that we were the nice people, the very people they were protesting about ! It was bullshit. Some had really come wanting to seek work and also catch up with friends who happen to be on the streets as trannies. The thing was it got me, this was all bullshit, absolute bullshit. So basically, to me, what was the hypocrisy of that. The other hypocrisy was of Brian Tamati when he turned up to a fundraiser for Georgina Byers who was having to have a Kidney transplant. It was held in the Hania Street Greek place. It was a big thing – when he walked in with his wife Hannah and Jevan under his wing - the whole show stopped. You could hear a pin drop - there was about 100 people there if not more, all asking what the hell was he doing here? And there was a table booked for them and Jevan, in all his wisdom, came over to me and said come and meet my friends. And I'm going Oh my God because I had known Georgina a long time and wondered what she was thinking. But she managed to thank us all for coming. Brian Tamaki is in his 60s now – he should know what's black and what is white. From my experience of it I see those American things on television like big gatherings, and you see the Harley bikes and the souped up cars and matching that back home you see the Tamatis swanning around down Queenstown and God knows what when they are supposed to be in Auckland. Yeah, it's just a different, different world to me. I just don't comprehend it in a gay sense. And considering that we're trying to get the Maori people vaccinated to save to try and reduce impact on young ones. If he is leading people he should lead them to the right water. No, it's to me, that it's just weird.

IRN: 3476
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/the_house_gender_self_id.html
ATL REF: 
ATL URL: 
TITLE: The House: Gender Self-ID
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Deborah Russell; Phil Smith
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: Deborah Russell; Phil Smith
DATE: 12 December 2021
YEAR: 2021
LOCATION: Aotearoa New Zealand, Aotearoa New Zealand, Oceania
CONTEXT: RNZ's The House reflects on the passing of the Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Act
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Welcome to the House. Back in August, I sat down with two backbench MP S to discuss the mechanics and difficulties of creating and passing members bills the bills from any MP. That's not in the executive. One of those MP S was nationals Louise Upton, who had a bill under consideration that it had a very long gestation here. She describes just a part of it. So basically, I worked on, uh, this issue for the first, uh, six years [00:00:30] while I was in Parliament. First of all, I had to get my own caucus across the line and because it was a very complex issue, it was hard to do that. And so I would do research I would work with, Um there was a public meeting on, uh, victims rights. Uh, I worked with different organisations who wanted the issue progressed. And I did a huge amount of work behind the scenes before it got to a place where my caucus would agree to it. And then when my caucus agreed to it, [00:01:00] then we start drafting the legislation. The idea had come from the experience of a voter in her electorate. The problem was the sentencing of people found not guilty on the basis of insanity. People judged incapable of standing trial aren't formally found guilty. But for a victim hearing a court declaring a perpetrator not guilty on any grounds can feel invalidating and insulting. And there was a flow on effect for victims of those offenders ending up in the health system and not the justice one. [00:01:30] Now those sound like simple enough things to fix, but it turned out not to be. So when we spoke in August, after more than a decade in the making, the bill had been knocked back into select committee when no one could agree how to overcome a particularly honorary legal issue. So second reading was still unanimous support. Uh, and the wheels got a bit wobbly in the committee of the whole house. I I'm optimistic we will still get there, Uh, but I'm just a bit of damage to the relationship on the way through, but I I'm still optimistic [00:02:00] we'll, we will get it. It's just another example of actually having to do the negotiation and the diplomacy and the whatever, all the way through the bill to make sure it actually gets there Yeah, And again, the public don't really see, uh, the work that goes on, uh, to try and make sure a bill works its way through. And it's fair to say there aren't many bills from opposition MP S that are passed. The stats probably wouldn't be very high on that, but on Wednesday, another one was added to the list. Those of that opinion will say I to [00:02:30] the contrary, know the eyes have it rights for victims of insane offenders. Bill Third reading. In fact, after those few extra months in limbo, the House had made a special effort to get the bill passed. And with the agreement of the business committee, MP S held the committee stage and then the third reading back to back. That's pretty unusual. Louise Upton has pushed a long road on this one and had many people to thank from Graham Moyle, who first [00:03:00] raised the issue through various officials to the Justice Committee. MP S, who spent months finding solutions, and Andrew Little, who as minister of justice, had set his department to solving the issues pretty unusual for a member's bill. Today I want to give confidence to every new Zealander that this is your house and as MP S, we work for you. We work to make New Zealand a better place. You can meet with your MP like Graham did and you can change the law. [00:03:30] To paraphrase another New Zealander, while it might not happen overnight, it can happen. Tonight is proof of that. And I think it's a wonderful way to end this parliamentary year for the member's Day, where victims will have more rights with the unanimous passing of this bill. Thank you so as you heard on Wednesday, Parliament passed that bill initiated by a member of the public, bringing an issue to the attention of their local MP and concluded by that same MP, [00:04:00] encouraging the public to do likewise because, as she said, you can change the law as it happens. On Thursday, parliament passed another bill. It's almost like it was trying to push. The U can change the law message home because that law was this one. Birth deaths and marriages and relationships. Registration bill third reading Today is a day about inclusion having the right to have a birth certificate. It reflects who you know yourself to be. Labour MP Jan Tinetti [00:04:30] was the minister in charge. She outlined how a run of the mill bill to update a bureaucratic database became transformed. This bill was probably seen to be a bit bland, but when it came back from select committee in August 2018, all hints of blandness had gone. In fact, it would be fair to say that it was a little bit more interesting than what it was before it went to [00:05:00] select committee. The then select committee had listened to the petition of Alison Hamlet and agreed with the request that the government introduce a self identification process for amending registered sex without the requirement for medical treatment and without the need for a court process. And the bill was amended accordingly. I'd like to take the opportunity to thank Alison and also thank the then select committee for the work that they did [00:05:30] on this bill. At that time, the bland bill seemed the best place to achieve that. So Jati directed her officials to write some new language, and a second select committee inquiry was held to make sure that everyone could input on the proposed changes, and many thousands did the outcome was a bill that included some life changing provisions for the trans community. As you can see, submissions can change laws. Petitions can change laws. Labour MP nasy Chen was [00:06:00] on the committee considering this bill and talked about how affecting hearing submissions can be. The ones that stick most permanently in our minds are the ones regarding Children. The parents who have bravely made submissions and heartfelt um ST had, you know, conveyed this story to us, their Children and the journey that they had to go on, watch their Children get hurt by our community sometimes, and because of these laws and those have, those are the stories that stick in our minds. So [00:06:30] what does the bill do? Ignoring the blandest stuff about updating the database? Simply it makes something currently possible easier. It allows you to change the gender on your birth certificate without requiring evidence of medical intervention or a court process. Green MP Elizabeth This bill recognises that those who need to amend their birth certificate can do so that the courts do not have the right to make their choice for them. That parents [00:07:00] do not have that right that cisgender people who don't even know them or care about them do not have that right. This bill upholds the man, the the of our trans intersex and non binary. It will be the first of many, especially while I'm in this house. Nationals I McKelvie outlined why he thought the change was a good one. We heard [00:07:30] from hundreds of people who all of these issues affect on a regular basis. And I must say having listened to the arguments for and against the CSO, P and subsequent legislation will have very little or no effect on me but will have a significant effect on so many people's lives. I think that's why we're here. If we can make a little bit of difference to someone's life and have no impact on other people's lives in the course of doing it, I think we should most certainly persevere with that. There is one group of people that this bill hasn't managed to find a [00:08:00] solution for, though here are Jan Titi and Rachel Boy and that is that unfortunately today we don't have a solution for overseas born people who live in New Zealand but want to change their birth certificate. So I have already signalled to my officials that we need to continue work in this area and targeted consultation will work on finding the solution. It will begin in 2022 and I am committed to that work. And I just want to put on the [00:08:30] public record that everyone who participated in the committee was committed absolutely 100% committed to seeking a solution to that particular issue. And we will work tirelessly to do that over the next few months. This bill will undergo a mandatory review after five years, but National MP Nicola Grigg expects that to be less contentious. My expectation is that as with other societal shifts in liberalizations in policy and law, and [00:09:00] that we've seen in the past that the fears some hold, that their freedoms being will be removed and that they'll be affected and the rights they hold will be affected. I believe that as we've seen in the past, these fears will be unfounded now. While the House voted unanimously in support of the bill, there was one area where individual MP S had differences responses to the level of rancour expressed about the legislation, National MP Nicola Gregg had raised the issue. I have [00:09:30] to say I have been concerned that during the passage of this bill, some groups who have wished to hold public meetings, public debate and public venues have been have been blocked from doing so. This is wrong. It is a clear overreach by those venues in question. We can't have a situation in New Zealand where the views of others that might be disagreed with are somehow branded as [00:10:00] harmful or dangerous or offensive. There is no right in this country to be offended by what other people think or what their opinions might be. If we shut down the full expression on topics such as this, we won't in this house. We won't benefit from considering a full range of views as we debate complex policy and ideas, and I do worry about the societal [00:10:30] societal impacts of people feeling that their views are no longer able to be expressed. We really do need to draw a line in the sand on the censorious restrictive direction of free speech in this country. Other MPs had variant opinions. Here's Labour MP Deborah Russell. The third thing I wish to address from what happened during the hearings was what I would simply call the language of hate. And it was a language [00:11:00] of hate that came through from people opposed to the spill. One of the language right we heard directed at Trans People was language that we've heard directed against gay people. It is the language that treats people as non people as people who shouldn't be allowed to exist, and we were required to listen to it. But I do not think we are required to listen politely to it as MP S. Of course, we must listen to people who come to our select committees, but I will not listen politely to hate. [00:11:30] And I think it's important that we don't listen politely to hate. There were young Trans people watching those hearings, and if we sat there and listened politely to hate, it would sound like we were. It would seem we were endorsing that hate. So I say Congratulations to the committee members who expressed their disapproval of the language of hate that came through so loudly. Labour MP Glenn Bennett and we've heard this whole mention of freedom of speech and free [00:12:00] speech, and that's OK when you have the power as the majority, That's OK when those around you are voiceless. But we want to ensure, uh that the freedoms about transgender non-binary and intersex community are free. Indeed, and national MP and committee chair Ian McKelvie I was uncomfortable [00:12:30] with the manner in which the live streaming of the Select Committee proceedings led to some submitters being very unfairly attacked on social media without either the will or or in fact the ability to reply, uh, or any protection from Parliament. And if we are to continue to use live streaming and social media to get our proceedings out there, we're gonna have to put suitable protections in place. Or we will lose the public's confidence. And we will no longer have people willing to submit to Parliament, particularly [00:13:00] on difficult pieces of legislation. I frankly don't believe people should be able to use uh, social media to attack submitters they don't agree with, and therefore the only reasonable solution for us is to prevent comment by this medium in the future. And I think the parliament is going to have to consider that, like the earlier story about Louise Upton's members, Bill born from an issue raised by a constituent. The overarching story here, I think, is the power of the powerless individual to influence Parliament and change [00:13:30] the law. Labour MP U was the last to speak. Mr Speaker, The minister started by thanking the petitioner who initiated, uh, this particular element of the change back in 2017, and I want to conclude my contribution by doing the same. So thank you to Alison Hamblet for engaging in the democratic process to bring about this change. It's actually proof that the fact of or act of petitioning the parliament does make a difference, even if it can take some time [00:14:00] to get there. Uh, Mr Speaker, I'm delighted to commend this bill to the house something that will mean so much to so many people. Our question is that the motion be agreed to those of that opinion. Or say I to the contrary. No, the eyes have it. You've been listening to the house. It's.

IRN: 3471
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/paekakariki_pop_up_vaxx.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004632
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089926
TITLE: Paekākāriki Pop-up Vaxx
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ayesha Verrall; Barbara Edmonds; Chrissi Johnson; Chrissy Vize; Compass Wilts-Ramsay; Debbie Jones; Jan Logie; Jess Sandoval; Justine Ward; Katerina Jane-Julian; Laura Peters; Michal Salter-Duke; Noeline McInstosh; Pat McIntosh; Penny Ehrhardt; Terisa Ngobi; Val Little
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2020s; Ayesha Verrall; Barbara Edmonds; COVID-19 (coronavirus); COVID-19 denial; COVID-19 fatigue; COVID-19 lockdown; COVID-19 vaccination; Chrissi Johnson; Chrissy Vize; Compass Wilts-Ramsay; Debbie Jones; Endo Warriors Aotearoa; InsideOUT Kōaro; Jan Logie; Jess Sandoval; Justine Ward; Kapiti Youth Support; Katerina Jane-Julian; Laura Peters; Michal Salter-Duke; Noeline McInstosh; Paekākāriki; Paekākāriki Pops; Paekākāriki Pride; Paekākāriki Pride Inc; Pat McIntosh; Penny Ehrhardt; St Peter's Village Hall; Terisa Ngobi; Val Little; intersex; takatāpui; trans; trans man; trans woman; transgender
DATE: 21 November 2021
YEAR: 2021
LOCATION: St Peter's Village Hall, cnr Beach Road and Ames Street, Paekākāriki
CONTEXT: Audio from Paekākāriki's Pop-up Covid-19 Vaxx event held on Sunday 21 November 2021.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Are we doing bunting out here? Yeah. OK, so, um do you want So what kind of bunting are you going for? Uh, we're going for rainbow. We're going for trans colours. We're going for queer. You know that vibe? Yeah. Can you tell me where we are today? We are outside ST Peter's Village Hall in, and, um, we are running a a pop up pride vaccination event. Why is it important to have a specific [00:00:30] pride pop-up event? Um, I Well, for us, it was about just making it really accessible for everybody in our communities. Um, but particularly for trans non-binary and Tau intersex people who might have, you know, their name not correctly recorded on their medical records. So, um, this was like an event where people can feel safe and comfortable that they are going to be gendered and, um [00:01:00] named correctly so that the you know, So it's not an embarrassing situation, um, or traumatic or a distressing situation, um, in a public kind of setting. So, um, we've got understanding staff. We've got lots of queer people, and pops has just arrived. Yeah, they've got So they made us a whole lot of um, rainbow Ice blocks for our pride festival, which didn't go ahead this year, of course, because of covid. And we thought, Bugger you, covid, we're going to have an event [00:01:30] and, um, we're going to, you know, offload all these wonderful rainbow pops. So do get yourself one. They are free. They're all paid for by the DH B. Can you reflect back on, say, the last year and a half where it actually has been pretty covid free within kind of Wellington. And I mean, what has that been like? And and And what? What do you think will change now that Delta's here? I mean, you know, I remember last year in the lockdown how smug we felt that we were We had eliminated it. [00:02:00] And, um, how free we were watching the rest of the world going through what we're just about to go through and that I think that's it. It's like we're watching the future. Um, you know, and this is why you've stopped watching the news, to be honest. But, um, we've only at the very beginning, so I can only hope that people do kind of reflect on how it might affect their families, their friends, their wider community and then make some decisions based on that. Um, because it's here. It is here, [00:02:30] you know, And it's a matter of time before it spreads. That's an interesting point about, um, just turning off the news. Because, actually, I think a lot of people are doing that just because, actually, it's It is really hard to take every day. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I, I sort of choose like I. I definitely read the spinoff, and I read some other articles from I don't know, the Guardian some, um you know, Yeah, alternative kind of stuff, but not too alternative. Yeah. Um, yeah, but I can't watch [00:03:00] one on three news anymore. I just It's too too overwhelming. Yeah, And then you get the stupid bloody farmers coming in with them ground swell. It's like there's this whole thing about it. Everything's become so political, you know, for me, this is a public health issue. It's not political. It's a virus. You know, it doesn't Doesn't care which which wing you're on. It's just it's here. And we need to be safe. Um, yeah. [00:03:30] So where do you think we will be in, say, six months or a year's time. Uh, it's going to be definitely in the community. I think we're going to lose quite a few people. Um, there will be people who will be pretty sick. Um, I mean, it's really encouraging that we're 90% of first vaccinations. Um, so there has been, you know, that's wonderful that we have had that update. Yeah. So, um, hopefully it will just roll that people will [00:04:00] just roll with, OK, this is a reality. Now it's here. We've got to do something. And this is not working, you know? Um, yeah. I mean, vitamins aren't going to fix it. Yeah, unfortunately. Why? Why was it important for, um, you and Pat to be involved in organising today's event? Um, gosh, I think, you know, with every year we've run a pride festival in, and, um you know, while we were kind of like [00:04:30] secretly happy to have a bit of a break, I just felt like we've missed out on something this year. So, um, you know, given that the reason that it didn't go ahead was because of covid, we thought, Well, let's do something that's actually going to bring people together in a safe way, you know, in the context of a covid situation. So, um yeah, and I think, um, you know, we want our queer communities to to feel safe and to be safe and yeah, [00:05:00] to be included in in, um yeah, all of the health kind of campaigns and stuff. Yeah. So I've mentioned yourself and pat being involved, but But there are others as well. Yeah. Oh, gosh. Yes. I mean, we are. You know, Pat and I are part of the Inc committee that organises the, um, festivals. And this year, we've had the most amazing committee as an actual committee rather than just, you know, us too. And a few other Or Daniel who does the parade and and other people that [00:05:30] we just tag in. So, um, so there's us, and there's, uh, youth support. So they're here. They've provided a vaccinated and an admin person. So they're going to do all the kind of the medical technical stuff, um, clinical stuff. And then we've got, um, pops are gonna give us free ice blocks and CC DH B. Um, so they they made contact with us to say would we be interested in doing this? And originally, we [00:06:00] were gonna try and do it over Labour weekend, Um, instead of the festival. But we didn't have the time because we they just made contact, like the week before. So, um, we're so pleased that we can do this. We're just wrapped that it's actually happening. Yeah. So, um, basically, this has been, um, Marshall from, uh, um who's standing next to me from, uh, capital coast. DH B has, uh, approached us. Uh, when we were going to do the pride [00:06:30] festival to see if we could, um, host a vaccination event. That's, um, wrapping around our pride community. Uh, especially our Trans, um, and And we decided to just delay it by a few weeks, uh, take it away from the Labour labour weekend and delay it by a few weeks. So, um, we're here to basically, uh, no vaccination events have happened in the in this year. Nothing. So everyone's had to go down to. So, um, this is [00:07:00] big for the village. There's there's there's a few people, uh, on shore on on vaccination. So it's it's great that from, uh, the DH B approaching us. Uh, we, um, to be able to do this, and and one of the other main stages is, um, youth support. So they've come on board, They're actually gonna be vaccinating, uh, today and, um, they they're bringing all the stuff, and and we're wrapping all our team around it, so yeah. So it's quite big for the village to have this happen. And, [00:07:30] um I mean, we we get such a fantastic, um, support with our pride festival. We're hoping that that will help Sort of just start conversations with people, So who knows? And we've got four MP S coming. You have to ask Val about that. She's been sending emails to everybody. So? So, Yeah, so it's It's quite, um, it's quite big for the village. Yeah. So you mentioned, um, some people are still unsure about vaccinations. What are the kind of things that they're unsure [00:08:00] about? Um uh I mean, there's so many things. It's probably Marshall's heard all them. I've heard them from, uh, people I know best mates that are unsure, but I think Marshall is the one probably to to roll through the list of of Of What is making people hesitant. Um, yeah, I'll, I'll hand you over. Oh, hi. Um, So, um, I'm the sex and gender diverse engagement lead for the CC DH B and Hutt Valley DH B for [00:08:30] the covid response. And the things that we've noticed are one. It just sounds scary. People are getting a lot of misinformation. It's been, uh, you know, developed really quickly. And people don't understand that. Actually, it's been 10 years of research into SARS vaccines. Um, it says MRN a. Well, that sounds scary. What if it changes my DNA So there needs to be more information about how it actually works and what it's doing? [00:09:00] They think they might get covid, um, which obviously you can't because it doesn't contain any of the virus at all, and also things like for a lot of people, it's just not high priority, you know, they've busy. They're working, particularly if they're young and healthy. They're just, you know, it's not that they're anti vacs, but they just don't have time or you know, that they wanna put the effort into going to do it. Um, lots of people, [00:09:30] you know, find it difficult to actually access it, you know, they're stuck at home. Um, they're working full time and say a physical job. They know that there's a good chance they'll get sort of just, you know, get minor side effects but just mean they'll feel crappy for a day or so, but they can't afford to take time off work. If that happens, there's just a lot going on. And I think also one of the main things is, um, many people who are pro vacs are being well meaning, [00:10:00] and they're just kind of, um, getting quite aggressive towards anti-vaxxers, which doesn't actually help. There are completely legitimate reasons to be vaccine hesitant, and the number of people who are truly anti vacs is quite small. Um, and they're, you know, they're addressing these vaccine hesitant people. Um, and we need to actually have properly engaging conversations with everybody. Um and [00:10:30] hopefully hopefully get people so they can ask their questions, get real answers without being labelled as anti vacs, which they're not. Um, why do you think it's important to actually have a specific event for, uh, rainbow and gender diverse people? Well, one reason is, um, particularly trans and intersex people have may have a historically a long experience of really bad, um, experiences [00:11:00] with the health care system, you know, being mis gendered, particularly intersex people having, you know, non consensual in medical interventions. Um, and I think it's important to say that there is actually people thinking about that. We're making sure that, um, you know, we're gonna try and make this as safe a space as possible. And I think that even people who aren't available to come to this the fact that they know there's this event on they know that there's my position that, you know, sex [00:11:30] and gender diverse engagement lead, and they know that they can. You know, it helps tell people that they there's someone thinking about it. They can ask questions. They can be supported. You know, we might not always get it right, but we're trying, and if we get it wrong, someone's gonna listen. Do you get a sense? I'm not asking for, like, specific stats, but do you get a sense if Rainbow communities are greater or less are vaccinated? I think it's it's it's very much depends, [00:12:00] Uh uh, on the part of the community and I think that, um, obviously the Rainbow Community is not a single community, and I think there's parts that are probably, um, well represented as vaccination because there's, you know, a lot of rainbow people are fairly engaged in activism and, you know, fairly progressive, and that tends to go along with pro vaccine. So I think there are people that are very much, um, well vaccinated. But I also think there's people who are [00:12:30] particularly disadvantaged, um, who aren't aren't engaging with the community very much who don't have very many supports either within the rainbow community or within their or or, um, family or friends communities. And I think those people are underrepresented in vaccinations. And I think, and that's that's tricky because that's the group that we need to reach out to. So I know the DH B is doing [00:13:00] a lot of, um, engagement with Pacifica. Um, with youth with Maori with disabled people and really getting those people who, um, are really, really trying to talk to people who are doubly, um, disadvantaged. Have there been other rainbow vaccination events around the the Wellington region? Yeah, there's been, um, two so far. There was one about six weeks ago in the city. Um, [00:13:30] that was a low sensory event, and that didn't have very large numbers because it was organised rather last minute and three weeks ago, there was another one in lower hut. Um, and that was a bit more of a festival kind of thing. There is going to be the follow up the second dose event for that in Lower Hut next Saturday. That's going to be festival with, um, performances. It's also not just a vaccination event. It's a community health info day. So there's gonna be info about sort of sexual [00:14:00] health info about accessing gender affirming health care. Um, info about general health and the, um, services like the youth one stop shop. Um, vibe out there, um, and entertainment. There's gonna be drag performers, kaha. Um, some, uh I think there's gonna be some cook island dancers and a whole and karaoke. Um, so a whole range of of entertainment and things like that and make it be a bit more of a a festival. [00:14:30] And we had quite a good turnout for that, Um, the 1st 1st 1 of that, um so hopefully we get people coming in for their second doses. Can you tell me about how today is going to How how, How it's gonna work. Um, so we're gonna get set up. Um, I believe Pat's already told you that, um, the youth service are gonna come in. They're going to be running the, um, admin and clinical side of things. Um, so it's just gonna work, basically [00:15:00] like a normal CV C uh, vaccination centre. Except that we're making sure that people, um you know, the all the staff are aware about, you know, using appropriate language, not using gendered language. Um uh, and we've got some cards that help people because there's one problem that a lot of trans people face is their NH. I, um, is under a different name from their, um what they go [00:15:30] by. And so we've just made some little cards that make that easier to communicate. You can just write it on the card show the admin person. You don't have to have a complicated conversation, and, um, hopefully that makes it a lot easier. Um, there are some problems with the admin system. The CIR. That means it That's not actually automatically, um, transferred from the check in to the vaccinated to the observation room. So we're gonna make sure there's someone who go, you know, when they check in, you know, they get [00:16:00] told, OK, this person's actually this name this but the system will say this and someone will manually pass that on, which is not an ideal way of doing it. But, you know, we're gonna try and make sure that gets done, and people don't get dead named or mis gendered. Um, we've got staff here so that, um, there's plenty of clinical staff who are gonna be able to answer questions because many intersex people, for example, have a lot of mistrust of the medical association. And, [00:16:30] you know, if someone just wants to come and ask questions and isn't ready to get vaccinated today, that's fine. If someone's got, you know, a needle phobia and just wants to, like, have a look at the needle now so they know what it looks like, Um and then maybe book later, then that's fine. If people just want to come and hang around with a bunch of other rainbow people, that's also fine, you know, um so obviously pride. PICO pride has been a lot smaller than was hoped. So, um, [00:17:00] maybe this is just a bit of an opportunity for people to engage with their community and have a chat. Get a free Popsicle. Um, and yeah, just just hang around. We're also having, um, Endo warriors out here. Um, they are an organisation that fights for, um, period equity and things like, um, access to treatment for things like endometriosis, et cetera. They're gonna be here and giving out free period products, including reusable period [00:17:30] products with lots of information about how to use them. And yeah, So it's main. Most of the organisation has been done by the PICO Pride Committee. Um, including Pat, who you've already talked to. Um um who's that's them over there. And, um, who's I think she's out doing the sign. Um, and yes. So I have been supporting from the DH B and providing funding. Um, also support from you, um, compasses. [00:18:00] Also, they work for inside out as well, so they're representing inside out as part of this. So it really is a team, um, event put together by quite a number of different organisations. And Pat was saying that this is the first kind of vaccination event in this year? Yeah, Yeah, I think so. And there there are no actual, um, permanent vaccination centres in PICO. So, um, the closest is either mana or Para. And so anyone who's in P cock [00:18:30] whether they're part of the rainbow community or not, um, is welcome to come down, you know, as long as they're not anti rainbow community, um, so welcome to come down and get a vax, because if if it's a you know, 100 metre walk from your house much easier than going up to Paraparaumu or whatever. Um, so yeah, we thought that that was another reason why it would be a good idea to run a clinic here because apparently, um, there are slightly lower rates of vaccinations here partly because of that. [00:19:00] And I imagine there's a bit more urgency now because just literally two days ago, we had our first kind of, um, confirmed Delta variant community case in the Wellington region, and we have been kind of free of community transmission for so long. What? What? I mean, what do you think that means for us now? Well, I think you know, vaccination does tend to spike when we have scares. Um and hopefully that I mean, it would be good if we had good [00:19:30] vaccination rates without the scares, but hopefully, um, we do get that again. And yeah, we know that it doesn't mean that you can't catch it, but it does definitely mean that your chances of getting really sick are much lower. Um, my sister in the UK actually has covid right now, and because she's been vaccinated double vacced, you know, she's feeling a bit crummy, but not too bad. Um, so I think it's just really important. Especially now that there's, [00:20:00] you know, there's covid in Wellington that we need to make sure everyone's vaccinated for those that can't be vaccinated for those that, even if they are vaccinated, are going to get really sick like people you know, doing chemotherapy or with other immune compromise. Or, you know, in their nineties, Um, and just the better we can do, the more we can do. We can just make sure that it's I mean, it's gonna be rough. We're gonna get a lot of cases, but hopefully they're all [00:20:30] mild because of this vaccination rates. So let's just try and keep everyone as safe as possible on a personal note. Would you ever have imagined yourself doing this job in this environment? You know, three years ago, not even six months ago? Um, I got into this role because I, um, sit on the sex and gender diverse working group for, um, gender affirming health care, which is a a working group composed of clinicians and community groups and community [00:21:00] members. So I was a community representative on that, um, And when the DH B was looking for someone to sort of drive this work, um, they approached the working group and the chair suggested me. So that's that's where I am now, um and yeah, I'm finding it, you know, really challenging, but really rewarding. And the team from the DH B are really, really supportive. Um, you know, I kind of spent my first two weeks just wandering around pestering people and go, How [00:21:30] does this work? Can I have this? Can you organise this? And you know, people would just go? Yep. Done. You know? So got some phones for hotspot. If the internet here is a bit rubbish. Um oh, we have to move out of the way so we can set up, Um, we've had I'll show you these cards that we've got, um, printed out, you know, had a lot of support from the DH B doing these. So, um, there's a few different kinds. So this is the large format one where, um if [00:22:00] you don't know your NH I You do have to unfortunately, write your old name that it's under. I can give you some of these if you want. Um, and there's also smaller formats. Um, so for most people, this will be no, that's not them more convenient. You know, it just goes in your business card, um, in your wallet. And if you do know your N I number you can just write that down. Just notify them that when it gets looked up, it's gonna have a different name. [00:22:30] But, you know, just and we're asking the admin staff to confirm my date of birth, and that's a perfectly good, um, confirmation. Could you just, um, read what's on the card? That's OK. Yep. It says hello. My name is blank. My pronouns are blank. The name on my NH I record is blank. This is not my chosen name, please do not say it out loud. And the other one just instead of saying my name on the NH I record is, it just says, um, my [00:23:00] NH I number is, um and yes, I can give you a few of those, um and yeah, hope. Hopefully that just smooths the process a little bit. Um, all vaccination. These have been delivered to all vaccine providers. Um, and we're trying to get them in. There's a number of other, um, non vaccination related places that have started using them. The, um the ministry is in the process of bringing them out nationally now. So this is a pretty good initiative [00:23:30] by the the CC DB, um, in conjunction with the disability equity team who already have these, um, little cards for, um, for people with hearing impairment. Just to make, um, that communication easier. And so I was talking with the, um, disability equity lead, and they said, Hey, why don't we just do these cards for this? Um and yeah. So my team, you know, put me in touch with the printers, got it all sorted, [00:24:00] organised the deliveries, and yeah, it's it's a really supportive team. and I love the, um, top you're wearing, which has a very welcoming message. Could you just tell me what it says? Says, uh, kindness is free. Sprinkle that stuff everywhere. Um, I got this from a company called Pride Wear. They're actually, um, a based, um, And at my previous, uh, at a previous event, I saw someone, one of the nurses there, wearing a shirt from this company. She was raving about them. And so I was like, I do [00:24:30] not have enough pride wear. So I had to go get some called Justin I live in. And partly this is a little bit of combating the disappointment and not getting our pride parade and thinking, casting about for other really positive initiatives that we can be part of and also having some friends in in the trans and intersex community and knowing that there are barriers to accessing [00:25:00] open communications around their health needs is lacking. And then someone came up and said DH B can organise a a queer, friendly, intersex friendly, trans friendly event. And I just thought it was such a good idea. So that's why we're doing it when you're talking about barriers What? What what kind of barriers? I think in general, my Trans and friends have a tricky time sometimes and facing with medical professionals. [00:25:30] Not always, uh, there There are always success stories, but even just the prevalence of dead naming and, um, really insensitive questions, lack of knowledge, lack of experience and lack of commitment to upskilling and these areas that seem like no brainers to us but clearly are are, um, you know, seen as an area of expertise. So so within what? What is the feeling like in terms of vaccinations, [00:26:00] Are people for it or against it or what? It's really, really mixed, to be honest, really mixed. So we've got a very, um large, I'd say proportion of people in the alternative health practitioner community and alternative, um, schooling as well. So we've got the school and lots of naturopaths and homoeopaths and people who who on one hand have a much more nuanced [00:26:30] understanding of the body and of how medicine and wellness work. And so, um, that can be seen, I guess, as a really positive thing. But along with that comes the distrust of what we would call traditional or mainstream medicine And so, yeah, I think a lot of people in the village are ed, but I think that they are more likely, in my experience to be the educated, UN backed and prepared to take responsibility for their [00:27:00] own health. My struggle is around not having the data yet that really proves one way or the other that that choice won't impact on other vulnerable people. And so that's why I, I would you know, I have a lot of respect for some of the things they're saying, but I can't go there myself. It's It's also new and also, um, changing so rapidly, isn't it? It really is. And I think that's part of what is very unsettling. I mean, it's it's it's the discomfort [00:27:30] around cognitive dissonance. I mean, people being able to hold multiple realities in their minds and the fact that it's changing and and the fact that that's so undermining of people's trust. Um, and it is a real rock and a hard place. So, um, I don't think anybody who's gone ahead and become vaccinated or is wearing masks and is complying with tracing would say that they felt that having covid in the community was a good idea, and they really wanted to be in this situation. None of us [00:28:00] do. But it's about having a I guess, seeing what the rock is, and, um, believing that that rock is worse than the hard place. And so that's where I fall into it. And I just hope that if most of our communities do, then um, yeah, we can be safe and massive social changes in terms of, you know, um, vaccine mandates or vaccine passports. I mean, these are huge things in terms of rights [00:28:30] and responsibilities, I guess. Yeah, they absolutely are. They? Yeah, and they, you know, I think it's thank you. I think it's fine for people to be challenging. It's important that people are challenging it and asking for lots of answers. But I also think we need to take responsibility for the messages that we get in response. If we want a responsive government who's going to be able to pivot on new information, then we can't then turn around and say I'm getting inconsistent messages and we just [00:29:00] want some certainty, um, a and then or if we on the other hand, if we want clear messaging that's more most likely to be effective, as we've seen in public health messaging around the world. I mean, it's not like Jacinda Ardern woke up and said, Right, I'm going to be really hard ass about this. She's got a huge coms team who have trained their whole lives around public health promotion and how to get huge large communities and societies to do what they need them to do. And people have been studying [00:29:30] this around, you know, smoking cessation and breast cancer screening and five plus a day. And it's a science. So it's not like she's just a really bossy individual, you know, And I really struggle with with that, too, because she's it's been personalised, and I think this is a decision that's been made and again rock and hard place. I think, behind closed doors, none of them would want to feel that they're forcing their constituents or their communities into decisions that are this hard. [00:30:00] But clearly they feel it's important enough, and I've met some of these people and I trust these people on a personal level. Um, you know, I've got I've got politicians in my family and I know that they're not oligarchs just sitting in some ivory tower. I know they're real people, and I know this is a struggle for everybody. So just two days ago, um, we had our first kind of confirmation of a community Delta positive [00:30:30] case in Wellington region. Um, that's going to change the landscape. Um, probably forever. Can you kind of reflect back on what it's been like for the last year and a half in terms of not having covid in the community And and now we we that's what we're facing. Yeah, I think we've been incredibly lucky, and I've and I've I'm lucky that I I've been able to hold on to some gratitude around that, Um and I'm glad that I sort of made ha well on because [00:31:00] I knew it wasn't gonna last. And I There are a lot of fears in my immediate circle of friends in because we have immune compromised people in our family. Um, I've got a cousin with motor neuron disease. My father's got Parkinson's friend of mine's, got a child who's immune compromised. And so what we've been looking at is looking forward. What are some of the conversations that we need to have within our friendships and community so that we can be as safe [00:31:30] as possible. And that's emotionally safe as well as physically safe. So how can I maintain my friendships with my UNC unvaccinated friends? What protocols can I put in place that can just be set up? You know, if it means outside two metres, then that's just the way it is. And we can both make choices about whether we go forward with that. But it will be based on, um, the best information that I feel I can get about keeping my [00:32:00] safe. It's not personal, and it won't be about not wanting to see them. It'll be again rock and hard place. This is a shitty situation, and we're all doing the best we can. So, yeah, I, I guess leading into it being released into the community. Those have been the thoughts I've been having. Like, how do I manage this? How do I keep these conversations alive so that we all feel safe and supported? Yeah. Um, yeah. So I'm I, um I'm a representative of inside out, so I work for inside out as [00:32:30] the Wellington schools coordinator. So I take care of all of the the schools in the the Wellington and up region. Um, I'm also here with KYS. Um, I work at KYS as, um, the Project Youth group coordinator, which is their, um, Rainbow Group, which is the, uh, rainbow and young people aged like 13 to 18. Um, so, yeah, that's that's how I'm here with. So why was it important for you to be here today? Um, I think it's important, uh, for, like, this event to go forward just so people have [00:33:00] access. Um, I think as well there's a lot of, um, medical distrust in the rainbow community, especially in our in sex and trans communities. Um, because of historical and ongoing, um, gatekeeping and misinformation and, um, like, harm that comes from the medical community Sometimes, um, and I think this is a safe place for rainbow people to come and access medical care. Uh, without feeling the fear of discrimination, Sort of like, um, hanging over them [00:33:30] as well, knowing that, um, they can sort of get this thing that maybe people are feeling a bit anxious about, um, in a space where they don't have to sort of deal with other things. On top of that, that may make them feel more anxious, like things like getting tan or dead named or just feeling like they're not being represented. Um, and just being around their own community as well, I think that's super important. Yeah. How do you bridge that, Um, trust gap If [00:34:00] people don't trust the medical profession, Um, that's a really big question. That's a bit loaded. Um, I think I think there are, um, really positive steps happening. I think it's all about I think it's the the the medical community, um, stepping up acknowledging the hurt that they have caused for a lot of people, um, and taking active steps to undoing that, Um, and that looks like getting regular PD for, um, you know, um, staff around rainbow communities. [00:34:30] Um, it's making sure that, um, students as they're learning about medicine that's nursing or going into becoming a doctor or anything like that, that they're taught about rainbow competency. Um, right in those beginning phases, um, I think it's also like a systemic issue as well. Of, um, medical systems need to be more inclusive. They need to have, like, more expensive options for gender and sex. And they need to, um, especially around like covid vaccinations. The systems need [00:35:00] to reflect people's actual names and people's actual genders as well. Um, so that trans people can come to events like this and not feel like that, That fear of that they're gonna be put in a situation where the wrong name is said or that they're gendered incorrectly. Which, um, is quite, you know, can be very, very distressing. Um, yeah, which I think is also a barrier. So I think there are lots of things that can happen. I think as well, um, rainbow communities giving, being [00:35:30] given information more readily. Um, about how this affects our communities. Um, specifically, um, and I think as well specifically for, uh, uh, Maori and Pacifica, um, rainbow communities. Um, that information is really needed there because Maori and Pacifica communities have also been really mistreated by the medical community. Um, so there's even more distrust there. Um, so I think it is about building up that trust not only around covid vaccinations, [00:36:00] but around our medical systems as a whole. Um, which is gonna It doesn't happen overnight, and I do think having clinics like this is a first step, but it can't just stop with having rainbow. Uh, friendly vaccination clinics. It really needs to go into, like, general practise into, like, everywhere, in hospitals and everywhere in our medical systems as well. There's been a lot of coverage. Well, there's been a huge amount of coverage of covid over the last year and a half in the media, but there hasn't. From what I've seen, there hasn't [00:36:30] been a lot of youth voices talking about How does covid impact on young people? You're working with young people all the time. What are your thoughts? Um, I think, uh I mean, there have been quite a few studies around. Um, you know, the impacts of covid on young people and on Maori communities and on Rainbow Communities. Um, and I think it shows like, um, there's a lot of anxiety around it. Um, lots of isolation. A lot of like depression coming out of it. Um, and that comes from, like, lockdowns [00:37:00] and not being able to connect to your community, Um, or not being given resources so that we can adequately deal with that. I think that is sort of It's just highlighting issues that we already had. Um, especially within, Like, our mental health system of there isn't capacity for the amount of people that need to access mental health support. Um, and also specifically for, like, our Rainbow and Takata communities. Um, some mental health workers aren't properly trained, um, to sort of, uh, work with rainbow [00:37:30] and communities. Um, so I think that's a That's a big a big thing. Um, I think as well we we know from, like, studies like counting ourselves that, uh, there is, um, a lot of distrust in the medical system from trends and non-binary communities. Um, which I think is just sort of, um, highlighted by, um by this. And people feeling anxious about maybe stepping into that medical space. Um, but, um, it really needing to happen. [00:38:00] Um, So, yeah, I think Yeah. There there have been really massive effects, especially on, like, community connection and on mental health. Specifically. Yeah. And what about, um, vaccination rates for rainbow youth? But in a in a kind of broad sense, so not no statistics. What? What's your feeling on it? Um I think, um at least from the the rainbow young people I've worked with, Um, a lot of them are vaccinated, which is really great. Um, yeah. So I think it can vary quite a lot depending on somebody's lived experience and how much they've [00:38:30] had to engage with, um, sort of the medical community. Also, um, you know where they're getting that information from as well, Because we know there's a lot of misinformation online, I think generally within rainbow spaces, um, like, in real life and also online is pretty pro vac. Um, which is really great. Um, doesn't mean that there isn't that anxiety around it. It just means that maybe rainbow young people are feeling a bit more open to being vaccinated. And the vaccine is being seen in a positive light. Um, [00:39:00] yeah. So So just in the last couple of days, the first kind of community confirmation of a community delta variant, Um um, result has come through. How do you think having delta in the community will change the Wellington and communities? Um, I think we've already seen the way it's impacted. Um, Rainbow community, specifically with, like, pride getting postponed until September. Last, uh, next year, Um, which [00:39:30] I think is a really positive step to make sure that we're keeping each other safe. Um, I do think that means that maybe there won't be as many options for us to get, um, support like peer support, um, in person. And I think that's where we can utilise things like the Internet and staying connected online. Um, and making sure that people have, like, that safety net to rely on if we're not able to, like, gather in big spaces or in big groups, um, or at all. Um, even if it's just for personal [00:40:00] comfort, Um, so I think we'll see that impacted. Um, but I do think that rainbow communities are quite good at navigating online spaces and having those spaces readily available. Um, yeah, Kiara. I'm Catalina, um, and I am a member of the community. Um, I would like as many people as possible to be able to access the vaccination in a way that makes them feel comfortable. He has a large [00:40:30] queer community, and it's pretty much the queer capital of the coast. Now, I might be being a bit arrogant and saying this, um, but I think we are in a perfect position to host a quer friendly vaccination event. And, you know, every little bit helps. The more vexed we are, the fewer people are going to get covid, and that's good for everybody. Why do you think it was important to have a specific rainbow event? There [00:41:00] are a lot of people who might not feel comfortable walking into a space. They are not a 100% sure it is safe and will accept them for who they are us for who we are. And so today, What did you bring with yourself? I just made some, um, chocolate chip and peanut cookies because I thought that they might go well with the tea you are offering to people. They smell fantastic. Would you like one? I've actually got my mask on at the moment. [00:41:30] What do you think? Uh uh, in terms of the the the the wider community in terms of vaccination, is it a Is it a community that that that is pro or anti vaccine? It's mostly pro, Um, And, um, by and large, the of the community here is to support public health efforts. Um, but there are a few people who are uncomfortable, not necessarily anti but maybe just a bit scared that their sources of information are telling them that it might not be a good [00:42:00] thing. So having something that's a bit of a carnival atmosphere, they'll come down. They'll see that everybody else is having a good time and comfortable getting vaccine. They'll have a biscuit, and, um, hopefully that will make them feel a bit better about about getting it done. It is a scary time, isn't it? Yeah, one way of putting it. How how would you describe it? Um, it's unusual. People are not used to what's going on, and people have not lived through a public [00:42:30] health emergency before. The last one is beyond most people's living memory. Um, and if the and the unusual tends to frighten people, um, it just it actually really been beating my head against a wall as to sort of how partly how well people are respond. A lot of people are responding to this and like, could you do the same for climate change? But, um, yeah, people, many people are afraid of the unknown. And, [00:43:00] um, there are a lot of people who might be playing on that fear and encouraging people to forego social cohesion in favour of perhaps a different way of looking at things. How do you approach that? How do you? Um I guess work with that. Try and find out what it is that they are uncomfortable with or afraid of and approach that, um, ask [00:43:30] them where they're getting their information from, Um, try to firstly, try to get on side with them and then try to gently persuade them. I mean, that's the best practise way of trying to be able to do it. I'm afraid I'm not always completely patient. Yeah, we We've had a, um, covid positive case in Wellington, um, the first time in the community [00:44:00] for for for a long time. It's a Delta variant, and that's going to change the kind of landscape around, um, Wellington. But also up the coast Can you reflect on the last year and a half in terms of the the I guess the freedoms we've had and also where we may be going to Oh, I forgot to bring my crystal ball. Um, I personally think it was a bit of a mistake to open up so quickly. And if [00:44:30] there is another lockdown. I'll be disappointed because I have quite a fabulous summer plan, but I wouldn't be surprised. Nor would I be resentful because whatever it takes. But I do worry about what the element of society who is more concerned with, let's say personal freedoms than community safety might do. Um, I'm very uncomfortable with the US far [00:45:00] right influence that I see in this. And, um, I just I just hope that that just goes away. Um, as an anarchist, I'm really uncomfortable with people mixing the message of freedom in with the self interest inherent in the arguments of people doing what they think is best for themselves. Um, I don't [00:45:30] know. Do they not have elderly? Do they not have, um, vulnerable people that they're concerned about or, I don't know, Do they genuinely think covid doesn't exist? It's sort of hard for me to get my head into the space of somebody who thinks like that, but, um, I don't know. What will it take? Will it take their great aunt to die in an IC U before they sort of change their mind? Um, will it take the same sorts of hospitalisation rates as they've got in Europe at the moment for them to change [00:46:00] their mind. I just hope we can stay strong and not let that viewpoint influence what we need to do. I mean, yeah, we're not doing it because there's an authoritarian government ordering us to We're doing it for the health of the whole community. I am here because I joined the Pride Committee. I've just been so blown away by pride in the last few years. So, um, when I was asked if I want to be a part [00:46:30] of it, I was just like, yeah, I think you know, it's such an important thing. And today we're doing, um, prick for pride, which, um, is about just making vaccines available to local people who may not have had the opportunity or may not have been comfortable. Or maybe we're just a bit on the fence and now decided to come along and, um, get vaccinated. And Karen, it's my daughter. And she's helping organise. So where Karen goes, mother goes. [00:47:00] So you came down from Palmerston North and helping out? Yes. Yes, I did. Yes. And you were saying to me before. So Karen is, um we know who is Pat and, um, that she's always been involved in community events and working for the community. So can you say a bit about that? Yes. No, she's always been one to pop in and help anything. And, yeah, things like that. Yeah. [00:47:30] Yeah, because I guess what I see is that is such a great community. It really values all types of people. Um, I mean, we really value free thinking, which does mean some people have free thought that possibly the vaccine isn't for them. So it's really good to get the information out there in a non confrontational way so that people can talk about it and work through their thoughts on it. And I think part of the wonderfulness of is what? Um yeah, Pat [00:48:00] and Val have contributed, um, very quietly in some ways, but just even the fact that there's, um, pride flags around and all year round and other things. Um, And when we cancelled pride, um, a normal pride parade this year because we actually want to be about keeping our community healthy and strong. And so, um, when the DH B through, Michelle contacted us and asked if we'd like to be involved with some, [00:48:30] um, outreach to the queer community for, um, vaccination. Um, we just thought it was a really good way to take something good out of what it seemed like. A bit of a downer that we couldn't run anything. One of the things that really, um, is very surreal for me is just the whole idea that we're actually in the middle of a global pandemic. How? I mean, how has the last year and a half felt for you? Uh, they're not good. Not good, because I've lost my husband too, so yeah. Yeah, not good. But still, [00:49:00] we'll cope. We'll cope. And you were saying that it's often that your friends who are in the next generation from me, your friends are just getting the vaccination. They went through the polio vaccination, and you don't know anybody in your friend group, an age group who's kind of not wanted the vaccination. No, it seems to be some of the younger ones, so I think there are older ones. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. [00:49:30] Um but it seems like almost it's been just a more of a where we have to do what we have to do to stay safe for the older generations and maybe us younger ones who haven't experienced infectious. Um, so, um you know, apart from, you know, some of us went through the big HIV AIDS epidemic. But, um, since then, there hasn't been that much infectious diseases that has affected our community in a big way here in New Zealand. I was overseas, actually. Um, I was with my partner landing, [00:50:00] um, in Amsterdam. Um, we were going to go and enjoy Amsterdam. Um, and the pandemic was declared and she was living in a country, uh, in which it was illegal to be gay. Um, and her boss said we should fly back there, and I was, but because of the rules of that country, I wasn't on her health insurance. And so I was like, Well, I can't go there because I won't have any insurance. Um, So I headed on to the UK thinking that the UK and New Zealand were both [00:50:30] island nations with good public health systems. And that was where it was where I was intending to go. I've been living in the UK previously, and I know you know, that was a mistake because New Zealand has just done so well, not just like, you know, government responses. And I'm not saying the government's perfect, but also with the, you know, the team of 5 million and how hard most people have worked to really have a community spirit and whether you're, you know, LGBT Q I straight old young people have really worked to keep the community safe. [00:51:00] And it's been sad to see that whittle away a bit recently. Maybe people haven't appreciated if they haven't got links overseas just how deadly and devastating this pandemic is. It must have been such a shock. Um, when you're overseas and then suddenly all these lockdowns started happening. Uh, I mean, it was very traumatic. Um, and I haven't seen my partner for the nearly two years since then. Um, which is incredibly, incredibly hard. And I can't wait till the border is open. Um, I think these are just [00:51:30] They are the things you have to do to keep all of us safe, and I can I can accept that loss which feels awful for me personally, as long as we are keeping ourselves safe as long as we can, and so yeah, Sometimes we just sort of have to take one for the team. And, yeah, it's been really rough, but, um, we're hopeful that we will get to kind of hang out together again soon. And you mentioned, uh, just earlier about, um, HIV and AIDS and and going through [00:52:00] that, uh I mean, what are your thoughts? Is it is it similar, or is it different? I think so. No. And I were talking about Well, have we seen the sort of anti vax rhetoric before or weird conspiracies? And we came to thinking, Well, when HIV AIDS happened in the eighties, some of the things that were said were not just mean and anti gay. There were some utterly crazy conspiracies and utterly crazy, hateful things being said, uh, directed [00:52:30] at people with HIV a ID and directed at the gay community. And that was my only my closest recollection to the level of of passionate misinformation that some people are spouting about, um, vaccinations. Um, so that was kind of the the analogy. Obviously, that's a really different illness. Um, you know, it took a lot longer for the effects of it. It's not something you got and, um, died quickly. But I think the stigma and paranoia around [00:53:00] it, that's what we were seeing is similar. And do you think that stigma and paranoia and discrimination potentially will happen with covid if somebody tests positive for covid? Um, I really hope not. Uh, it was one of our things we thought about and not running a pride parade and pride for this year. We did not want to be the parade cluster and have that splashed everywhere. And I mean, I know some of the Pacifica community, um, have felt that and some of the Chinese communities have felt that that, [00:53:30] um, they were singled out. So we really, really need to work to say yes. Get vaccinated. Yes, be safe. But also, if somebody is ill, you know, have compassion. And don't just turn on them. And humans are very good at having outcasts and as queer people, we've been on the receiving end of that. So we really need to be incredibly mindful about not doing that to others. Hi. So, uh, I'm Chris Johnson. We are here in, uh, at the Saint Peter's [00:54:00] Hall, and today we've got an amazing and awesome Pop-up vaccination event, which is rather fantastic. Um, it's great being involved in a small community where we can actually get together and host events like this and make things, um, safe and accessible for everybody, really. And, um, but especially our rainbow community, and especially some of the younger people within the rainbow community, and make things really accessible for them. [00:54:30] And apparently this is the first vaccination event in this year. Uh, quite possibly. Why is it important to have these specific events? Um, I think, Well, in general, it's It's about making sure that we're making things are safe for everybody within our communities. Um and yeah, making, making, having events where it's easy for people to get to. Um, not everybody drives. [00:55:00] Not everybody is comfortable with going into maybe a medical place. Um, there are a variety of reasons for that. It's about just making this comfortable and welcoming. I am truly in awe of you because you can talk and also knit at the same time. This is I can. And actually there's a lot of, um, rainbow posts around the village here in and, um, I am the rainbow Yam bomber [00:55:30] of how long have you been doing that? For about three or four years. So I replace them from time to time. Um, used to try and make sure that we've got things in just before pride, But I'll try and keep them up all year round. And, um, yeah, make things bright and fun. They are amazing. I'm looking at the give way Sign over across the other side of the road. How long does it take you to do that? Um, I don't really think about the time when I'm doing it. So I do [00:56:00] it while I'm doing other stuff. Maybe, like, you know, Netflix thing and and knitting and getting it all, getting them all ready. And then it's a matter of coming down and then stitching them all onto the poles around the village. So I try and, you know, do that over a few hours on a day off at some point. Yeah, And what kind of feedback do you get? A lot of really positive feedback. Everybody really loves them, especially the kids around here. So, um, we'll have quite a few up at the school, too. Decorating posts and poles. Um, so yeah, we've recently, just in the last couple of days, [00:56:30] had a positive covid. Delta case in Wellington, and that is really going to change the landscape. I. I have a feeling. Can you reflect back on on the last say year and a half of the kind of freedoms we've had and and potentially like, where, where we're going to Oh, well, I, I think it really waxes and wanes these days, and it's like, you know, we go through periods of of actually being able to, you know, have events, go to music, do things and then periods of time where our lives just change a little and we're [00:57:00] having to stay at home, and we're having to avoid a lot of contact. It can. It can be trying, and it can be, you know, difficult on a lot of people. It's definitely taxing on on people's mental health and well, well being. And I think it's it's important for us to think about what we're doing, Um, and how we're interacting with each other and being as kind as possible when we are in lockdowns, maybe making things fun, perhaps using social media in a fun way to help inspire and make people laugh and smile. Um, I know last lockdown. I spent a bit of time [00:57:30] dressing up and having creative different outfits, different days and sticking photos up. And I was getting a lot of positive feedback from friends and colleagues about how it would make them chuckle, and they'd wait each morning to see what I was going to post. So you, like, find, find the fun in these things because there's there's enough things that can get you down in life. So just yeah, look at look at the positives out of the situations. I mean, nobody wants covid positive, but let's think about the other positives we can have in life. [00:58:00] I'm Chrissie. I'm from Paris. And yeah, we're just here at the hall, which is very rainbow rainbow coloured in honour of the vaccine event happening today. Can you describe some of the things we can see around this? We got the check. An area for people who come in to get vaccinated. Um, we are handing out free rainbow pots today. Um, in front of me, there's a, um, a free period [00:58:30] stand for information from Indo warriors. Um and yeah, I can't see into the booths at the moment, but there's people getting vaccinated in there in the waiting room, over a bit further around the corner for people who've already been vaccinated. Why do you think it's important to have specific events like this? I guess it's just trying to capture everybody who hasn't been vaccinated yet, for whatever reasons they might have if they feel uncomfortable for some reason, getting vaccinated in the sort of main vaccination [00:59:00] centres that provide somewhere for them to go and do it comfortably. And you were saying, Rainbow pots, What are they? I can show you. But so we've got, uh, basically what have we got? Five different layers of different fruit flavours that we make, um, all in different colours of the rainbow. So we've got a kiwi fruit and lime, uh, a green one. We've got a yellow pineapple and then, uh, orange [00:59:30] pineapple, carrot and ginger and a strawberry layer and then a mixed berry layer for the purple. So how do you make those? We freeze them in layers basically, so they're very labour intensive. We just make them once a year for the Pride Festival and and what do they taste like? Well, yeah. And so I'm told by people who drive them as well. And so you're giving out, uh, rainbow pops to to to everyone that comes around to Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Everyone who comes [01:00:00] in to be vaccinated and their support crew. So OK, so so I'm Teresa, the MP for the lecture. And while this is not, um, I know that a lot of our or rainbow community come up to. And who wouldn't? Because look at the vibe. The vibe is cool, right? Um, so really, I'm here with my today just to support the efforts for, um, to for vaccination, of course. But of course, always supporting our So, um, really, really privileged and honoured to get a an email [01:00:30] from and the team and coming down here and just seeing what's already organised. Um, everybody who's out here. And I was just talking to some people outside who are from the community, and they're already double vacced. But they're just here to support, uh, the and the vaccination. So I thought, That's cool. That is a really cool community spirit. So why do you think it's important to have very specific events. Um, for all different types of communities. Yeah. So what we have seen is, um, of, of course, just in terms of getting those last little numbers over the over the line. [01:01:00] Um, in terms of your local community in the communities that you feel comfortable with and the people that look like you sound like you or vibe like you, that's really important to for people who want to have a A or about why it's important Or, um, the hesitancy in getting, um, vaccination. So if you see someone say for your when you see someone from your own rainbow community, of course you know that's gonna you'll have much more of a, um, A trust, I guess Vibe going on, [01:01:30] um, to be able to talk to them about anything you might you worried about, Um, and instead of someone like myself, you don't know coming along and saying Hey, you get vaccinated. You're like, Well, I don't know who you are, so yeah, and I guess you know, speaking of trust, that we all have different experiences with, um, the medical profession and, uh, and the state and I can see why some people are, really he? Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, you know, obviously as a brown woman. Um, I definitely know what, um, the lack of, uh, some of the access to hospitalisation has been or just the medical [01:02:00] advice. And, um, and health advice. But I know as being a minority, same for rainbow community, Same same. And actually, unfortunately, um, you know, for for a lot of our, especially our transgender, um, there's been some really some real built up mistrust, and you can understand why, um, so again, to be able to come down and talk about the health issues in a really safe space with people who know you who understand your vibe and where you're coming from. Um, I think it's awesome that the [01:02:30] rainbow community has been able to put this on today. Yeah. So what? What about you? You know, you hear people in the media and and just General Joe public, you know, blaming communities for not getting vaccinated. Like what? What? What do you say to those people? Yeah, I don't think it's a blame game, actually. And I think, um, one of the things I've been talking to the community here about it. But actually, um, we've been I've been lucky enough to visit all the different vaccination centres within a, um, up and down the coast. But, uh, you know, one of the things I think is around, um, just understanding and having the space to [01:03:00] having the space to and have a talk. I think that's, um where our I guess if the media wants to do something in terms of, um, uh, supporting, that's where it should be. It should be allowing people knowing that there's they're allowing the space to talk, you know, even if today you decide. Actually, I don't wanna, um, have a vaccination come in. At least have a chat about that as to why you might still walk away thinking that's not for me. So how do we make sure that you can still continue to be part of the community A. [01:03:30] And keep everybody safe? And so then start having a conversation around that. So I think Well, yes are definitely about raising the vaccination levels. We understand that might not be, um, people might not get to that space. At least have the around. How you keep everyone including yourself safe around you. That's my my, um, because it's also got a bit larger than vaccines now, in terms of, um, mandates and vaccine passports. These are huge social changes, aren't they? They are. [01:04:00] And I think, um, I guess for me, the overall arching, Um, I guess if you're talking out about a moral responsibility of the government, the overall moral responsibility from government is to make sure everybody's safe. Now, we can't make sure that there's a different piece of legislation or guidelines for Theresa that there is for the other blogs who decides maybe two, or to not get vaccinated. We have to have that overarching. Um uh, uh, health guidelines. And they come from a mixture of, obviously the science. [01:04:30] Obviously our officials that have kept us safe till now. Um, so there is that trust and that science as well as the decision making, and I think from there what we what we've tried to do was certainly our Prime Minister, Jacinda, and the and the Cabinet ministers, I think have done a great job in going. This is the the the health guidelines. Now for you who may own a business or for you who you know, uh, I don't know, runs the canton or whatever that looks like, as long as you're within those you know, those, uh, health guidelines to keep everybody [01:05:00] safe. How you do the rest of that is up to you, and and I guess some people call it a mandate. Um, I call it steps, or, like the traffic licence might call it steps to keep us safe. Um, and there are, you know, for me there are options in there. You know, there are options if you do decide not to have it. Um, say, if you are a business owner, and you do decide not to have, um, your vaccination and have unvaccinated people and there will be restrictions to make sure that those guidelines are kept safe. So there are options, if you like. In terms of those steps, that's my view. And [01:05:30] just personally, how has covid impacted you being a member of Parliament? That must have changed What you do, How you do it. Yeah. So, of course you know, you know, you're not able to go into the houses freely and also into the, um, debating Chambers and I had my time at home too, with my family. My husband, Um, who works for Ministry of Justice and works at home and our Children, Um, and and that can be trying in itself. But I think, um I mean, we're lucky here. We've been able to get out and about a bit quicker [01:06:00] than Auckland. So they've really done the hard jobs for us. Um, and I totally understand the frustrations of having to stay home. I think covid has affected everybody. But one of the big things, I would say if I may, um, is just in terms of again going back to their health, accessibility and our health. Um, inequities. You definitely see, um, more So the inequities been highlighted for Maori Pacific and people with disabilities that is massive. And that's something, um, that I'm really grateful to Minister Little who is working towards those [01:06:30] Health New Zealand reforms. Um, that that this is something else that's been highlighted. And we can make sure that we can work to combat some of those issues and the accessibility issues for our minority groups. Uh, so my name is Jess, and I founded an organisation called Endo Warriors A, um and we support anyone that has endometrio policies to ovaries, no matter the gender. And we also provide free period products to anyone need. We recently did a campaign to support all genders that mint [01:07:00] and we got organisations like A and my and all that to come on board. And we took lots of photos and for them to use online to show that. And we encourage them now to use inclusive language and now inclusive images when selling their menstrual products and that, you know, it's not just females that have periods anymore. Um, and so, yeah, so this is just a non for profit that I started up, and it's really important for me to support everyone that menstrate and, um, Period products are really expensive, which is ridiculous. And so I like [01:07:30] to come to these events just to give all these items out for free to anyone that needs them. And we've got reusable pairs. We've got period cups and single use items as well. And so why was it important for you to be here today? Um, I attended one a few weeks ago in lower heart, and it was just such a great event and the organisation that I started, Um, once I got started and supported all genders that have endometritis. I started getting a lot more messages from people saying that it was really nice because they didn't feel like supported from any. The organisations that support [01:08:00] people in aren't really inclusive. And then the more and more I talk to people, I realise that you know how important it was. And so, um, I really just want to make sure that, like everyone is supported and I love these events and the way they're set up. And I just want to be, you know, here for everyone. So tell me a wee bit more about. So when was it So I started in February 2020. I had a hysterectomy in mid 2019 and things went really wrong [01:08:30] and I got really sick and I was in hospital more than out and there was just really no support. I've had, like, eight, and there's just been no support. So I thought, I just want to help people that have the illness like me. And so I started that up and just offering support, spreading more awareness about it and starting meet ups. And I also sent free surgery packs to people having endos surgery. Just a bit of a pick me up and help them get through the surgery and let them know they're not alone. And then in February this year, we started the period products. Um, and over lockdown was probably the busiest, [01:09:00] Um, and just Yeah, it just sort of going from there. It's just me that does it. I'm not a registered charity or anything like that. Um, but I have a couple of cool volunteers that come and help me out, and it just always seems to keep going. I have to. I haven't had to turn away anyone yet, so it's been good. I had a young transition male who has Endo and was in hospital in another part of New Zealand and has been really badly treated because of all the hormones he was taking and stuff like that and non supportive. So I was able to help him [01:09:30] know his rights, get a social worker to come and help him and stuff like that. And it just made me more aware that I need to be, you know, try and get more people to help out. So I contacted inside Endometritis, which is one of the two big organisations in Wellington, and they change all their language to be inclusive and I challenged another one and they just won't do it. They are, um but Insight have been great and they changed all their language and they're in the process of updating all their handouts and things like that to make sure that it's all [01:10:00] gender neutral. That's fantastic. That's a great outcome, isn't it? It is fantastic. It's really good to see because having Endo is really difficult. It can take up to eight years to be diagnosed and it's quite painful. It's not just having a period. You go through so much like it's taken me off work for two years and it just it can be really devastating. And, um, just like not feeling like you're supported is like hard. And I can't imagine what it would be like to, you know, not be seen just because of the gender that you identify as so [01:10:30] it was. It was really good to have them come on board and do that. Can you take me through some of the things. You, you You're actually giving this away for free, aren't you? Yes, I am. So today I've got single use period products. Um, we've got period caps and reusable period pads, and it's all for free. And I talk to people about what might be best for them because some people come up and say, I want a cup and I'll ask them a few questions and then it'll turn out that they actually can't use the cup. So we go to the reusable pads. I try and get people to get reusable products because in the long run, it's [01:11:00] more cost effective. They don't have to worry about paying for anything. It's better for their body, and it's better for the environment. Um, but I also give single use because sometimes I just understand that it's what people like to use. It's just easier for them, Um, and a lot of it is done by, like, fund raising and donations from people. So that's just how I keep it going. And, yeah, so we come out and just talk to people about what they need and what their periods are like, and all that sort of stuff and just help them out. So you've got donations. But do do you also have [01:11:30] other funding that comes in? Um, I have There's a, um, tattoo shop and called in, and they've been really great. They recently did some fundraising and donated $1000 and they've donated to me, especially over lockdown. They gave me quite a good donation to help it going. Um, and there's a tattoo studio in Wellington called, uh, doctor. And they have, um, a group of tattoos that are called power just to try and make sure, you know, recognising all tattoos. [01:12:00] And they donated me, um, and artwork and stuff like that. So I did another raffle, and that's the main way we get. Things is just by donations. Some people that have an automatic payment that give me, you know, 5 $10 a week, and, um, $5 can go a long way. I can get five packets of pads for $5. Uh, it covers postage and stuff like that. So no amount is too small. Um, and we just keep to see, keep going, Like it just Yeah, I don't know. We've just been very lucky, you know, Sometimes I'll get down to like my last six. Packets of pads [01:12:30] have no money in the account for postage, and then I'll do a few posts. And the next thing I know, there's just donations, and it just yeah, keeps going. It's Barbara Edmonds here. I'm the member of Parliament for Mana, and we're just outside ST Peters Hall in Barbara. Can you describe what we're seeing? Uh, we are having a really cool rainbow festival. Um, there's been a pop up vaccination clinic that's been organised by the local pride community. Um, it is a really [01:13:00] cool event. It's a different vibe. I've just come off the back of a big festival in and in London and all different for different community. And some of these specials Very right. Yeah, my good friend. And also our associate Minister of Health epidemiologist Dr Aisha Vere. Um, she is amazing. And I think you really need to interview her. Why is it important to have these, um, specific events? Because, um, it's all about trusted places and trusted places, so people will feel comfortable to come and [01:13:30] seek advice from people that they know. Um, especially if it's their local health professionals. So if they feel assured, um, they're getting good information from those scientists from their doctors. Then they know that what they're going to be doing and the next step, which is to get vaccinated, that it's for the good of our whole community. So you've been to a number of events for for a whole variety of communities. Can you tell me what the the atmosphere is like the and what feedback? Overly positive, you know. So if I look at the statistics of Paki alone, we've got 100 and 70 around 100 and 70 people [01:14:00] that haven't been vaccinated or booked for their first dose. Um, you can can compare that to other parts of the electorate is definitely one of our leaders. They're doing really well. Um, and that's just it comes down to the community aspect of it. So going out to communities, Um, obviously having clinics that are there full time in different parts of the electorate. But what they needed here was the community said, we we want you to come here, come to our hall, come and vaccinate here. So our com the rest of our community can come in so and when people [01:14:30] have been talking to at these, um, these events, what have they been saying? Um, just really happy. Positive? They know they're doing it for their family. They're doing it for their They're doing it for their community. They're doing it for their kids. They're doing it for their grandparents. All the reasons why they're doing it is varied. But ultimately it comes back down to looking after each other. How would you feel about, uh, if you were to interview a see if we can do it? Yeah, I see. [01:15:00] So for love, a minister, um, if you can just introduce yourself and, um, what you're doing here in Paki K, my name is Aha. I'm the associate minister of Health, and I've come up to check out this Pride Vac vaccination event in Paki. I also had the pleasure of driving up with two of my friends from when I used to work in the hospital. Um, including Doctor Michelle Bam and Doctor Delilah Restrepo. And both of them are really involved in the vaccine rollout in the DH B. So we've been gossiping [01:15:30] about how it is at the coalface as as well as at organising the programme. So being at the coal face, um, doctor, what do you believe is happening throughout the community? What's what's kind of the vibe that you're feeling when you come to these sort of events? Well, exceptional positivity, because I think where we're at with the vaccination campaign is it's really got to quite a heavy level of community activation, the way of getting into the communities that have been harder to reach for us. So I think that's that's really cool. And seeing the community [01:16:00] take the side of the project for themselves has been a lot of fun. And so you're well aware of all the different states across the and obviously, um, there's, you know, different. Um, communities have different issues that they're facing When it comes down to this, what do you think are some of the advice that some of our health practitioners and our can give to those who are hesitant about getting the vaccine? Yeah, Look, I think, um, it's always just important to start with listening because everyone's going to have their own reason. Um, especially now, because everyone's probably [01:16:30] heard plenty of times about the vaccine rollout, so it's really a matter of listening and understanding what it is for them. Um, some people may well have heard a lot of misinformation. We know that's been a real challenge that we've come up against during the rollout. And I think in those cases it's just trying to find one of their trusted information sources and connect them with high quality ones. Whether that's someone who's medical or nursing or or someone trusted in their community, who's going to be able to get reliable information about [01:17:00] the vaccine. Thank you, Doctor. Aha. So, are there any more? Um, last words. Last messages for our community here in in our pride community. Oh, look, um, this just the, um, Rainbow Communities had a really strong tradition of taking matters into its own hands when it comes to health activism. And that goes way back to HIV and all those sorts of, um, causes that the community has taken on for itself. And this is one we've totally got to get behind. Well, that's Barbara. [01:17:30] I hope it was all right. For my first time as a reporter, that was amazing. And can I just ask what is can I just ask one question. How has your work with HIV and a I DS affected. Uh, how How you're working with Covid. Yeah, I think one of the things that, um that's a really strong reminder for me is how stigma is part of infectious diseases and the experience [01:18:00] people have. So if you if you want people to participate in A in a programme, then you can't be simultaneously telling them off for how they got covid. And so that's been a real challenge. Um, because, you know, we have had, um, outbreaks associated with gangs and drug use and things like that. But the, um the the health response always has to come Come first [01:18:30] and be, um you know, you've always got to have a welcoming door out to people I. I totally agree. Like, just today I had a cousin from Auckland who, um, is a gang member, and he contacted me to say he's got covid. So he's been put into MIQ. That was my first question is, where are you isolating at home or in MIQ? So that that's a really good response from our health system, because I know that if he was to stay at home, he could pass it on to his parents or to his partner or his partner's Children. So I mean, I, I first hand for me [01:19:00] like just treating everybody as if they're the same. And that this is a health issue is like, the only way we can do it. Hi, I'm Debbie. And, um, I'm a cover you support and the clinical team leader there. And I've come down to promote, uh, covid vaccination amongst the rainbow community. Why was it important for KYS to be here today? We've been heavily involved in promoting the, um covid vaccine ever since the vaccine was available. We run two clinics at KY twice [01:19:30] a week. Um, initially, it was three clinics, but more recently it's been two clinics in the evening. We've vaccinated hundreds of people through KAS, um, youth and adults as well. So coming here today is just an extension of that. And it's all about, um, it's all about vaccinating people who might, you know, if I have a barrier to go [01:20:00] to a hub and be vaccinated, it might be that they use a different name than their birth name. And that might be a really awkward thing for them to do to walk into a hub and have to, you know, to say that so they can come here and feel comfortable and be surrounded by people who, um, who understand that, Yeah. What has it been like for you doing so many vaccinations over the last? It's been pretty hectic. We've got four, certified vaccinators at KYS. [01:20:30] But we also employed two external vaccinating nurses that help us. So those are the two nurses that are here today in the hall, external vaccinators that help us in S as well. So it's been pretty hectic because we've had to rearrange the way we work to accommodate the clinics. But, um, it's been a really important thing to do because we know that you like to go and be vaccinated in an environment that they feel comfortable and you know, by people that they know they can [01:21:00] trust. And so, yes, it's been good. We've had to change the way we've worked. But it's been a challenge, but it's been very satisfying. How many people do you think you've personally vaccinated me? Oh gosh, I don't know. Probably over. Well, over 100. Could you have ever imagined in your nursing career that you'd be right in the middle of a pandemic in 2021? No, it's been [01:21:30] quite something. It's really pulled the clinical team really close together because we've been through two lockdowns and we've just carried on working, going to work every day. I had to change the way we worked, you know, do a lot of phone triage and a lot of, um, we've done. We've been involved in a lot of swabbing as well for covid. So we do that in the car park. Last year we were doing flu vaccines in the car park. Um, no, it's I couldn't believe it, but it's [01:22:00] almost surreal thing, isn't it? And it's changing and evolving all the time, you know? But yeah, I'm a little needle phobic myself. I've met a person who, historically the nurses have made me lay down because I've looked so anxious this time. Actually, I wasn't so bad, Um, but it is something lots of people are nervous about. And there's been lots of misinformation disinformation [01:22:30] this time around, right that have kind of heightened anxiety for people, So I think events like this, where there's trusted community members and health professionals, for people to come and have a chat to to kind of try and dispel that misinformation is particularly important. I think, um, there's also nervousness now around things like mandates and vaccine certificates and that these are huge social changes, aren't they? Yeah, they are. And I mean, we are living in a global [01:23:00] pandemic. This is not something I ever imagine going through in my lifetime. And yet in lots of ways, we continue on as if life is as normal or we expect it to be as normal. And that's quite confusing, right, and a mandate to tell groups of people that they need to have a vaccine when we've always had the protection of health procedures. Being a choice is it is a big adjustment [01:23:30] for people. And I understand that kind of sense of like needing to question that, um, it's guess I've come to the point where the science is really clear in terms of the importance of us doing this to look after each other. I want people to come to that to themselves. Um, rather than being told that they have to. Um But if that is what we need to do to keep people safe, then I'm gonna er on keeping people [01:24:00] safe. Now we are watching every night on the news. Uh, the Prime Minister, members of Parliament, members of Parliament, making decisions on our behalf. You as a member of Parliament, right in the thick of it. How how is Covid impacting members of Parliament? Well, I guess like everybody in some ways on multiple levels, you know, our lives have been massively disrupted. We don't know what's gonna happen next year at this [01:24:30] time of year. We're normally planning for all the events at the beginning of next year. We have no idea like anybody else. What's gonna happen over that time for us and the greens? We're operating on a much smaller team because we staying with the public health advice that we're saying there should be a hard border around Auckland. So we're restricting our Auckland MP S, except for our co-leader who self isolated for 10 days to come back down and is not able to see her family for several months, and that they [01:25:00] are all working from Auckland to keep that hard border. Um, and that's it's quite tough, but along with it is the sense of real anxiety. I know Elizabeth, Doctor Elizabeth is from one of the districts with really low vac vaccination rates. And I live in Cannons Creek, another area with really low vaccination rates and the sense of the holidays coming and the borders [01:25:30] rising. And this just impending fear about what that's gonna mean for the survival of our communities. Um, and and we, uh that is not a light thing to be holding. We're not the decision makers, but we have a voice, and and we have a sense of responsibility to be raising those concerns and to try and work out what is best for our communities. In that [01:26:00] context, here and on top of covid, you've got the rest of life going on. That is, that is right. We're still, you know, in select committees and talking about changes to orang and how we stop the removal of babies. And you know, the devastation that's caused for Maori communities. We're doing work around immigration, which is covid related, but AC C reforms and as well as you know, conversion [01:26:30] therapy legislation and the birth deaths and marriages legislation that Elizabeth has been doing so all of that and much, much more continues as it needs to, because there's an urgency to that work as well. Um, yeah, those two bits of legislation, um, I'll pick you up on the, uh, the conversion practises and the birth death of marriages. Registration. Um, the select committee's been going. How do you think? Um, those committees have [01:27:00] been going so far with Well, so Elizabeth is is now our spokesperson for that. So I've been trying to keep out of her way and enable her to do the amazing work that she does. Um, but I have been trying to her and support her in terms of the huge number of hours that she's been doing. Listening to people's submissions, um, and acknowledging that some of those submissions have been very hard to listen to in terms of people's fear [01:27:30] and which I will use as a descriptor rather than hate, because I think it's, you know, it's a fine line sometimes, right. But I'm gonna go and say that it's based out of fear. Um, and, um and some of that is just really really sad. Um, but progress will be made. It may not be exactly what we would have wanted it to be. And I particularly hear in terms of, [01:28:00] uh, migrant communities around birth deaths and marriages and the fact that, um, the were not able to get the support to be able to make those changes to ensure that people who were born overseas were able to have a seamless process in terms of terms of changing the, um, having a birth document that reflected their affirmed agenda. Yeah. [01:28:30] What is your sense after seeing some of the select committee? What? What is your sense of? Of how they are proceeding? Um, well, I think I think positively. Ultimately, I think, um, I genuinely think, Well, people people have expressed there have been a lot of views that have been misinformation. There's also been a kind of, um, a coming together of some new voices. Um, and it's been quite [01:29:00] like, you know, beautiful to reflect on the mainstream churches, joining and having a very clear position against conversion therapy. And if we contrast that to our relatively recent history that that is a real marker of some hard being done by our community within those churches, as well as the national conversation that people have been part of to shift to a more inclusive society, including our churches as [01:29:30] part of that still work to do with some of them. Obviously, Um but But it is. I think it should encourage us. And And I also noticed, um, with some of our trans community being able to pick up on some of the submissions and find them affirming and feeling as if they had allies who were supporting them. And that, too, I think, is incredibly important. Um, rather than just focusing on the misinformation [01:30:00] and opposition that actually this there has been a space where allies have stepped up and spoken really beautifully and powerfully. And, um, that hasn't always been, um, been very easy for the trans community to be able to hear those voices because there hasn't been the space for them to be expressed. So, um, I think that has also been a positive thing. Am I a Pollyanna? No, no, II. I [01:30:30] mean, you always have such wonderful words of wisdom, And, um and I was going to just bring it back as an ending to this event, which is very specific around about, um, really aying the rainbow community to get vaccinated. And I guess, do you have any final wonderful words of wisdom for for us going into? But there is also one thing I would point out with this event is that it's a collaboration, [01:31:00] um, between pride and KYS, which is the Youth Health Service here who's been here for a very long time. Um, in this community And, you know, like we often kind of think of pride, um, and young people's kind of spaces being centred in cities. And this is up the coast and KYS is based in and and we still have these spaces that are [01:31:30] affirming and, um, recognising our diversity and supporting young people with their diversity, and that's a really great thing. So, um, from the very start of the first email that you got from from DH B to standing here now, how do you feel? It's gone? Um, way, way beyond what I could ever have imagined, To be honest, like I just I thought we might get like, maybe three people turning up, and then all the MP like four MP and [01:32:00] us like more MP S than more organisers and MP S than people. But it's been just amazing, like lots of people turning up, getting vaccinated. I don't know how many what the numbers are, but, um, it's got such a nice vibe. It's colourful, the music's going, everyone's chatting. The MP S that are here are really friendly and engaged. And, I don't know, I feel really proud. And I think we've had some people that have been quite hesitant [01:32:30] and anxious. I think you Laura, you had one that you help from from coming here right at the front door. You walk them in and sat with them. Is that right? Yeah, absolutely. Um, they were quite anxious about getting their first jab and, um, definitely were wary of the whole thing. And, um, had a good chat to the nurse and was given some comfort. And yeah, they went ahead and had their first chat. So that's awesome. So it's for us. Um, the idea when it was first proposed to actually [01:33:00] put this event on with KC use support and the DB and inside out and bringing people together, it's so much better. II I just said to this morning, If we get one, I'll be happy. You know, if we can get one person vaccinated, but they've had to just go off and get open up, some more vials get some more So and And it's about having the conversation in a safe space, which we wanted and just just making it actually normalising a [01:33:30] vaccination process. And, you know, because it's huge, what's going on. And it always feels if you go I mean, I went up to drive for mine, and it did feel quite formal and quite sort of, you know, medical word. The word. So this is, uh, put a whole new on how you can do it at a vaccination event to try and get those last few hesitant people that we that I know. There's some that won't but the last few, you know, just wrap some love around people and, uh, yeah, and it seems to be working. [01:34:00] How do you think it's gone? Oh, I just I just chuffed, you know, as I thought we'd have more MP S than people getting back. So we've broken that record, so I'm I'm really pleased, and it's really fantastic that we've had four MP S turn up. That's that's great. And we got an email from Ashley just saying but, um and it was to me, um, he's thanked us for the and apologised for not being able to be here today. So I think also what's been really cool is that even fully vaccinated community [01:34:30] members have come down and just had a chat and mulled around with us and supported us. And that's just been really, really cool to see. Yeah, it was great having you here, Gareth. It's just wonderful. You know, I think you love coming out to the village, don't you? We love having you come here. So it's such a lovely community to come into, um because I actually don't feel like I'm coming into a community. It's like, you know, we're an extended part of the community. You're always welcome events just to get you up here. [01:35:00] I also love um you know, groups like Endo warriors that are here today as well. Yeah. Yeah. And, um I. I wasn't up with the play on that one on those emails. So sorry, I. I didn't even see the memo around that one. So that was my from the DH B. Um, organised them to come. Yeah, and so I think they've been going to quite a few, um, pop up vaccination events. So, yeah, it's really cool to have them here. So how would you sum [01:35:30] up today? Oh, I just think it's shows you can do things differently. You know, you can, you know, you can think outside the square to hold an event and, um, try and embrace the community into into something, So I don't know. I'm just chuffed that I don't use that word very sparingly. Chuffed. I'm chuffed. I just think it was awesome. Yeah, it's just been great to see everyone come along and those that got vexed and those that didn't but came to support us. [01:36:00] And, yeah, it's just been wicked and had something really clever to say, and I've forgotten, but yeah, just It's been, um, joyful. And imagine if every health setting was as joyful as this. How we get our our health sorted this, like, community to community. Yeah.

IRN: 3466
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/a_rainbow_in_the_village_2021.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004631
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089925
TITLE: A Rainbow in the Village (2021)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Janet Holborow; Pat McIntosh; Val Little
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2020s; A Rainbow in the Village; Anti Springbok tour protest (1981); Beautification project (2021); Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Act 2021; COVID-19 (coronavirus); COVID-19 lockdown; COVID-19 vaccination; Conversion Practices Prohibition Legislation Bill (2021); Dykes for Trans Rights (t-shirt); Fab jab (COVID-19 vaccination); Finn's Paekākāriki; Gareth Watkins; Janet Holborow; Manawatu Lesbian and Gay Rights Association (MALGRA); Mark Zuckerberg; Michael Fowler Centre; Paekākāriki; Paekākāriki Bowling Club; Paekākāriki Pops; Paekākāriki Pride; Paekākāriki Pride Inc; Paekākāriki School; Pat McIntosh; Rainbow Crossing (Paekākāriki); Speak Up For Women NZ; St Peter's Village Hall; The World's (Unofficial) Shortest Pride Parade; Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); Val Little; Zoom (online video conferencing); anxiety; cancel culture; deadname; facebook. com; gay; gay liberation movement; homosexual law reform; human rights; intersex; lesbian; non-binary; paekakariki. nz; pandemic; select committee; social media; trans; vaccination
DATE: 23 October 2021
YEAR: 2021
LOCATION: The World's (Unofficial) Shortest Pride Parade, cnr Wellington Road and Beach Road, Paekākāriki
CONTEXT: Pat McIntosh and Val Little from Paekākāriki Pride Inc talk about how COVID-19 has impacted on Pride 2021. The interview ends with a very unofficial pride parade across Paekākāriki's pedestrian crossing - widely known as the world's (unofficial) shortest pride parade.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How are you going? Enjoying the break. So here we are. 2021 Labour weekend. Yeah, Labour weekend. Um, yeah. Here we are in the village. The rainbow in the village. That's been, um What's [00:00:30] it been bent? Bent? It's B, but not broken. So we've scaled it right down. Yeah. We're not saying that it's been cancelled because it just sounds like defeatist, but, um, we've just changed it. So how how have you changed it? So rather than having large events where we gather, um, we are doing what we're calling, um, calling it a beautification project throughout the village. So we've invited all the village people in Paki to decorate their houses sheds, um, [00:01:00] dogs, pets, people, anything, Um, just to show some rainbow pride. And, um yeah, so we're just waiting for people to sort of come on board. We've noticed that Finns have put up a whole lot of stuff, um, outside and inside as well. They specially bought some, um, little mints. You know, after dinner mints that from the rainbow brand. So even they're all individually wrapped with a little picture of a rainbow. So they've gone all out. It's just It's so heartwarming [00:01:30] and and it's like, um I mean, beautification. It's They've got till the fifth of November to, um to enter and these prizes. And it's just like just sowing that seed into people's minds that you can still celebrate pride without having everything happening. It's a different world now, and even you know it. It'll be our fifth anniversary next year, and it's like, OK, we're gonna have to probably rethink what we do and how we do it. It's a changing, shifting platform, isn't it? So, uh, but [00:02:00] we we're we're, um I don't know. We went to the Rainbow Gala or Plant sale. They only had the plant sale this year at the school, and that was kind of cool because it's the first time we've been able to go there. We just dress up, and we're kind of having our own little mini parade. So two o'clock, we might just because we have never walked the actual pride route, so we might just go and walk the pride route. Yeah. Yeah, well, we can do not 100 so we just need We just need, uh, 96 [00:02:30] more people and we're still legal. Yeah, so, uh, I don't know. It's a crazy world, isn't it? But, you know, it's kind of nice seeing, like the bowler, the flag has gone up. The flags are about. We put the bunting up in our flags up this week, and it's just like, yeah, pride doesn't go away. It looks amazing. And so you you're referring to the bowling club, which has got the progressive pride flag and and fins. They've got the progressive as well. Um, and as you come into the village, you'll see the progressive flag and [00:03:00] the flag. We always have those two flying together. Yeah, So, um yeah, we're really wrapped, We're wrapped. And we we are actually by the very famous world crossing, um, where we cross as the world's shortest pride parade. Is that official, or has that been confirmed? You would not give it to us. So we we we call it the UN official. And you know, there's not much difference between the word UN and official is there. So we go with that. To be fair, there's never [00:03:30] been a claim for it, and I think they don't measure. Oh, there's some weird, weird thing of the criteria. They don't actually measure things like that. So we've claimed it and no one's contested it. So we're we're sticking with that. I think Antarctica were going to claim it when they had their festival down there, but they haven't emailed us. So So, you know, it's still the cut the ribbon and cross it. And someone has done some start to do some chalking. So we'll see over the weekend whether that gets, you know, filled in, I was going to say, because in 2019 [00:04:00] when we were here, I can't believe it's been two years. But it has, um, you were saying that the Council didn't particularly appreciate the rainbow crossing? They, uh, it's it's It's a legal thing that, uh, the council can't, um, um back anything that's on a crossing because of safety. So, you know, and, um, it was done. It was done a little bit more. Um, what would be the word? It was done with paint [00:04:30] temporary paint that year, and so the council actually had to come in and actually remove it, so Yeah. So, um, we But when you say temporary, it kind of lasted quite a few months. I don't know where they got the temporary paint from, but it was quite it was quite permanent. Temporary. So, um, so the thing is, I've just dropped my mask. Um, the thing is that we we had a great we've become pride. Pride incorporated. We've got ourselves all official. We've got a great, uh, committee, [00:05:00] um me and are working on our succession plan that in five years time, you know, it's it's passed on to others and we're working in with the council. We've got some great people on the committee this year that have got some really good links into how to do street art. Uh, legally. So this is what, um we we're aiming for with the with the sowing the seed for the beautification project. This year is for the fifth anniversary that we actually somehow have this beautification street art [00:05:30] that's going to be part of the village and will be known, um, as as a village with this big rainbow in the village or whatever. So that's that's our goal for the fifth anniversary. And we've got some great people on the committee that are that are right behind that. So, um yeah. So there you go. It's a goal. Yeah. We've also got an event coming up in November. It's a queer friendly, um, vaccination event we're trying to. It's with the marketing department at the moment, but we're thinking, thinking [00:06:00] prick for pride. Fab jab. I don't know, but, um ja, I stole that from Melbourne. Um, but and Paki Pops every year make rainbow pops, and it takes them an age to make them. Um, So they've made 100 and 60 this year, which we need to offload. Um, and the local DH B has offered to buy half of them for the, um, jab event. So we you know, again, [00:06:30] the marketing department's deciding on whether it's, you know, prick your pop for pride or something like that. We'll work on it, and and the idea is we we got we got a project player. Well, we got an email. We got an email from the, um DB. And they're acknowledging that it's really tough for trans people, intersex people, gay rainbow community to go into these environments and get their vaccination [00:07:00] where they'll be. You know, it's that what's going? That's the debate that's going through a select committee at the moment is and you turn up and you get dead named and all this sort of stuff is going on. So the DH B has got this wonderful person, Um, that I always say the name Marshall that's come on board and is basically spearheading that that we wrap wrap safety and love around these people and bring them into environments that they feel safe. So we were approached to try and have a vaccination this afternoon [00:07:30] in the hall, but we decided that we need to be able to reach out more into the coast. Uh, and to be able to bring these people into the and, um, we have transport and everything and and and give the publicity behind the event. So we're looking at Sunday the 21st of November from, uh, 12 till four that there's a safe environment here at the hall. We have a lot of rainbow. Uh, now, um, here to, um, and cars and transport. We can pick people up and so that that's the the main idea that we're [00:08:00] running with now. So, yeah, it's amazing. What? What gets thrown at you with covid, but you can always bounce back up and come up with something. So we've got Yeah, we're gonna We're gonna vaccinate at ST Peter's. It's not just safe, but it will be fun as well. So we're gonna have, um, you know, we'll have bunting up. We'll make it look like it's an event. Um, but we'll do it very safely with masks and, you know, good good people from our communities that are that are, you know, friendly and inclusive and all of that stuff so that people feel safer because [00:08:30] they have to wait for 15 minutes. So it's nothing worse than having to wait for 15 minutes if you're not feeling safe. So we're going to make sure that we wrap, you know, some good safety stuff around them. And, um, we're looking forward to it. Yeah, it's kind of like covid you have not got us. We're going to make a party out of this. Yeah, we will get. We'll get the projector and the sound system up and running and play either a pride movie or some gorgeous gay eighties. You know, Queen music videos or something. And yeah, that's our plan. So yeah, [00:09:00] So So how is, um COVID-19 impacting? Do you think? Well, we're a little bubble away. We're we're a safe little bubble, and I'm just gonna touch some wood down here that we as far as we know it, it's not in the village, but it is in. So it's getting closer. It's, uh the tide is it just feels like the tide is coming. So, you know, we have to just get sensible, really, and and do what we can to keep ourselves and each other safe. Um, so for me, that's about getting vaccinated. It's just that's a no brainer. [00:09:30] And and, you know, there there are 10% of the community that are that are still wavering. Uh, not sure, and there's some that will never get vaccinated. But I think the more that we, uh, embrace this, um, and keep each other safe. And then we can do something like a vaccination at Saint Peter's Hall, um, and show. You know that it's OK, and people can come in if they're not sure and ask questions. Um, you know, at the moment it's in medical type situations. Um, last week was the big vacs campaign around the country. [00:10:00] So you know, it does come down to us all just jumping on board and, uh, keeping everyone safe. So, uh, you know, we've got a diverse community in It's an amazing community. Like in the first lockdown last year, you know, was so incredibly supportive. And, you know, we just we really look after each other. I was really struck by what? A community that you know, that we have. Um, this year it feels a bit different because there was a bit of division around vaxes and anti-vaxxers. Um, but that's the world [00:10:30] we're in at the moment. So we just got to sort of live with it and just try our best to keep our own bubbles as safe as possible and, you know, still be kind and support each other. Yeah, it's It's tough. It's a lot of fear out there. It's like I say to V, it's like a tsunami coming, and there's people that are unvaccinated that are just standing on the beach, looking at it and going, I'm fine. I've taken my vitamins and there's other ones that are going No, we know what's coming. We've seen it around the world and we need to get, uh we need to do something [00:11:00] about it, you know, And And the reason behind this pride festival, it was like, if we're not in level one, we're not We're not doing it. And it was like the last thing we wanted was Ashley Bloomfield at the one o'clock saying and the and it was like it does sound cool. All good. Well, not quite good. Not good promo. They say all news is good news, but yeah. So that was one of the reasons. I mean, you know, we got we got to adapt. So [00:11:30] So what is it, like trying to organise in this kind of environment where you just don't know if things are going to happen or not? I mean, it must be Well, I mean, so much energy, soul destroying, But also, there's some really positive things come out of it as well. Yeah, well, we've got an amazing committee like, um, like Pat said, You know, we've got this new pride in committee this year, so we've got people from we're so lucky. We've got, um, a person from KYS. So we've got a real connection to the young people and and and inside out, [00:12:00] um so big shout out to you, um, and other people that are, you know, taking on roles of, you know, school and liaison and things like that. So, um, we we decided we'd plan it as if it was going to go ahead until we heard it wasn't so. We've sort of gone along, you know, enthusiastically. And then we've said, OK, safety is our key. So that's how we've had to just adapt. And also and also we've got a template that we know this is our fourth year, so we know we know how to do [00:12:30] it. And and I was I suppose I was the one on the committee going. It's not going to happen. It's not going to happen. And it's quite hard to rally yourself up that I think that's half the problem with all the events and organisers around New Zealand is you sit there and you know well, we have to be at this stage. We've got to be in level one, and you just look at it and go not going to happen. So we did pull back. I mean, we did there wasn't you know there was things organised, but But at the end of the day, it was like, Well, this is the date we'll decide on We actually went a week earlier and [00:13:00] said, No, we're not doing it. And, you know, and I think, uh, the year Gosh, we've been in this since March 2020. So we're sort of getting our head around that now, aren't we? Until we get the vaccination certificate, Uh, the red light traffic system up and running, which I think sounds a great idea. Um, until we get next year will be slightly different. But this this last six months has really thrown everyone I. I just feel for artists, you know, the creatives. I'm sick of the mayor of Queenstown getting, [00:13:30] you know, going how bad it is. Open up the bubble and all this with Australia. I think we got a feel for all those creatives out there. Uh, music industry, uh, theatre. You know, film. Everything that that are that are just really struggling on this, you know, so interesting to see how festivals are going to be in the future. You know, like, um, ads coming up. And I think they're having a a vaccination policy that you have to be vaccinated. That's probably the realities that we're going into [00:14:00] a coming up for festival. So, yeah, that's that's all Auckland. I just I've just seen stuff coming out from them, you know? And so it's It's just it's just honestly being flexible now, and this isn't going away. So, uh, it just just managing to be creative about how you do things. Thus, we just got our tutus on and our T shirts and having a little mini pride here with Gareth. So you know, that's how it works. Do you think it will? Or how do you think it will impact on on future events here? Do you think, [00:14:30] um, it will come down if we do the dance? Uh, it will come down to being vaccinated. Um, you just can't afford to have people coming in that are a 70% chance of actually picking it up and having this virus. I mean, the other thing is that those that are vaccinated can carry the vaccination without even knowing it. So the last thing I want to do is know the Yeah, Yeah. Sorry. Carry the virus. So The last thing I want to do is know that I've given it to someone that's not vaccinated. So [00:15:00] it's about how do we wrap things up and keep them safe? You know, we could have done 100 people down the parade idea, but not worth it this year, you know, and some people are still trying to push it with events, you know, But I just think we just This is a really important time in New Zealand for the next two months, you know, get up to that 90%. So we just got to step back and, you know, do things slightly different. Yeah, you have to be sensible. Gaze. Now that's never happened, Has it in history. [00:15:30] I've got to say I've just found the last year and a bit just, like, really surreal. I just I still can't believe we're in the middle of a global pandemic. Yeah, Yeah, it's weird, isn't it? And especially especially living in a small bubble like this, you know, I was I work from home, and I this is my bubble. And I had to go into town the other day and I felt like I'd been raised by Wolves because it had been so long since I'd been around people and busyness. And it's like, This is our world now, you know, we just got to stick to our safe bubbles and make sure that we keep each other safe. And [00:16:00] and New Zealand, honestly is, is groundbreaking world leading in its approach that it's shut down so quick. You know, I'd hate to think if we'd had other other parties in power because these guys, um the courage to do what they did last March has given us this this. I mean, the economy's been bubbling away. Unemployment's not dropped. Um, but But it has been it's not the right word. But I say the false sense of security is the rest of the world. We know what's happening, and we've partied away, and we've done [00:16:30] all this. But now it's got real, and, uh, you know it. It's coming the virus, and, uh, we we'll deal with it as good as New Zealand can with the right party in charge. I personally think, you know, and, uh, they're not gonna do. They're not going to do crazy stuff. So we've tried to open up with Aussie, you know, now we need to be safe when we do stuff. So, uh, party political class a year. We've got stuff going through Select committee that that's, I think it's as big as what? Well, homosexual [00:17:00] law Reform 86. Look, look what's going through now and how it's actually divided our community. There's a there's a small percent that are actually trying to rip our community apart, you know? So it's been an interesting year, and I said to Val, just Sunday, we need to actually the way you get through this because we're all carrying anxiety, even if we don't know it. And I said, You just got to actually have your bubble, however, who you want to bring into it. But good people, good energy, because otherwise it's it's, you know, we've followed the select committee. Uh, some [00:17:30] of it, and I and I just had to turn it off. I just couldn't do it. I just couldn't do it. I turn on for the good ones, but well, well, it's really interesting, because I mean, at the moment there are two select committees. There's the um Conversion Practises Select Committee and then the, um birth deaths, marriages, relationships. Bill. Yeah, they submitted the other day an oral submission for conversion practises. Yeah, and, um, you know, it's just a lot of people talking about other people, what they think they should be [00:18:00] doing. And it's that's not cool. That's yeah anyway, So I was glad to be a voice from the community talking about, um, the echoes really of homosexual law reform. And so you know, so many similarities of of the fears of what would happen if we were if gay and lesbian people were given rights, for God's sake. You know, um, none of it's come to pass, and it's exactly the same with our Trans and Non-binary and Tau communities. It's just [00:18:30] human rights, you know? Yeah. Yeah, And there's been these bulk template, you know, submissions go in and you know you. They say, Oh, there's what is it? 100,000 submissions and there's, you know, 90,000 are against it, and it's just like, Yeah, 90,000 are the same template, you know, so and they don't read them like that. They'll read that as one, you know, But the law will pass. The rainbow will come up and the world will carry on. And, you know, and, um, it's interesting. We're part of history. [00:19:00] It's nice to be on the right side of history once again. So, uh, yeah, I think I've been quite good on, you know, the All Blacks, the Springbok. I was on the right side. I was on the right side for a few other protests, so yeah, you know, it'll happen. Um, and we'll carry on, and there will be another part of our community Rainbow community that has rights. Human rights. Simple as that. Human rights. I think one of the different things about, um, the the the current bills that are going through [00:19:30] all the response to them has been that the the the quite big divisions in the rainbow community in terms of some people for it. Some people against it. Um, do you have any thoughts on that? Um, do you wanna go first? Oh, God. How long have you got? Um I mean, I think people are scared of change, right? And we're in. We are in a time of social change. We are evolving right at this moment, and it's scary, but it's also really exciting And I think, um, some [00:20:00] people hold on to old traditional ways of being and are scared to let that go because they fear their own irrelevance. Maybe that's all I can put it down to. So you know, I don't know be visible but be visible in a really positive way. You know, uplift. People go with the flow. Yeah, that's that's how that's how I'm saying it. I'll just be blunt. There's a small group percentage in our [00:20:30] rainbow community that are transphobic that are scared. There's a beautiful wave. I love a tsunami of youth coming through that are questioning the binary of our world, and, um, and they tend to be the older, more and more conservative. The far right has got behind this whole fear campaign that that fluidity will somehow affect their rights. That's that's how I [00:21:00] see it, and it's actually not that big. It's well funded. It's it's loud, it's vocal, but it's not actually that big. So, um, you know, I, I my heart goes out to the MP S that are having to sit there. I've heard it's going to go to Christmas, you know, and have these submissions because It's just hideous. Some of the stuff that's being said and we've as as you say, it's we've heard it all before, but it was against us, and now it's against [00:21:30] our So you know and it's just part of change. Change, change, Um, takes a lot of energy, and there's always people that are resistant. But if the good you know, if it's the if it's the good side of history, it happens. Hey, and it'll happen. So I'm looking forward to being in Parliament when both bills pass. Yeah, I think that tsunami was really evident. And was it July where we were outside the Michael Fowler Centre? Thousands [00:22:00] of people supporting trans rights. Um, what was your feeling on that? I loved it. I mean, I did some videoing, um, I haven't even posted it up, but I edited it and put it together. But I went upstairs to the room where the where they were actually debating the rights of, um of what were they debating? I don't know. It was quite bizarre, and I've never seen such a bunch of miserable people. Sorry, but, you know, there might have been 40 50 people in the room. [00:22:30] And it was just I just felt for these people that are just not that ignorant, ignorant and fear mongering. And you know anyone that's on No, I can't say that. Yeah. Anyway, it was, um And then we have this You look down. I was waving to you from upstairs in the Fowler Centre and you know, she and it was like, Look at them. Look at the beautiful youth. Look at everyone supporting us. We got called a few names and miss, didn't we? That was a bit sad that if you're an older lesbian, you're considered [00:23:00] to be a I'm not a too. So we fit the profile, which is really sad, but we don't agree with the politics. So, um yeah, they're out there changing the profile of any lesbian that's got grey grey hair. It's like, Yeah, we love our trans fun. I've got a T shirt that says Dykes for trans rights now. So I wear that to say, Look, I'm on your side, but you know, it's unstoppable. It it's It's like it's like trying to stop the dam as it's coming. You can't stop it. It's beautiful. [00:23:30] I love it. I love it. I love our youth. A weird thing for me is that there's a lot of, um, some of the older lesbians who are quite masculine presenting, and some of these laws will actually protect them from being mis gendered in public places. And it's, you know, it's like it's actually uplifting everybody. It's not. Yeah. Anyway, I I find that quite, um, quite ironic. But that's also a really good point in terms of, um, people thinking that you may be turfs and [00:24:00] just that whole kind of very quick to cancel people just on on appearance. And I think that, I mean, that seems to have developed over the last five or so years. Yes, Yeah, yeah, there's a real, um I don't know. We we need to step up as as the older generation and and actually say where we stand on it and actually try and, um, talk to our peers as well. I mean, there are some people who are lost, you know? It's like all rabbit holes. You know, some people go down too far that there's no way going back, but where possible, I will have the conversations, and I will, [00:24:30] um say where I stand and, yeah, that, uh, hopefully influence others in my age group and older. Yeah, Same. Yeah, Same. It's about conversations, and it's with kindness, too. There's I mean, there's quite a lot of antagonism. Um, and the far right has captured has captured that that, uh, conversation of of, um, yeah, I've done a little bit of Googling Googling myself and yeah, you see, and it's driven, but it's come from UK. [00:25:00] You know, there's all this wave flooding across UK Europe, and it's coming over to us. And it's like actually, guys, if if you guys are hooked up with the time, I can't do this, you know? But if you're hooked up in these sort of voices, just stand back and sing where you who you stand with so but fear a fear. And I also wonder if a lot of it's been driven by You know that that that that social media, that that immediacy, that you can connect with people around the world with some of the viewpoints, you know? But also people [00:25:30] say things on social media that they would never say to somebody's face, you know, So it's it's yeah, It's such a yucky platform. It can it can, you know, it can be a really positive one, But quite often it can be really awful in these kind of situations. Yeah, Facebook's not monitored. They say it is. It's not. Our world has changed with old Mark. What's his name? And, um, yeah, I think we all need to, um and then it's really hard. We we promote our [00:26:00] all our events on Facebook. So I think we we have to look at different platforms that we're using to promote stuff because we can't all be going to this this platform to find out what's going on when they're not. Actually, uh, they're not blocking. They're not censoring that. Just there's this other crazy world going on that they're just taking the money. Hey, So, uh, I think we have to seriously look at our social media and, uh, you know, I'd hate to see 20 years time and we're still [00:26:30] facebooking and there's I think it's going to rip the world apart. I think it is, especially with the pandemic coming. Well, the pandemics here, but, uh, we have seen it with our own community. So yeah, here's to not Facebook. Here's to just start ringing Gareth and saying, Hey, the festival is on old fashioned. Well, one of the things that II I have appreciated about Facebook recently is that all the select committees have been live streamed on Facebook. What has it been like? Because everything has been doing? [00:27:00] Everything has been done virtually at the moment. What is it like, um, submitting to a select committee via, like, zoom or or something like that Kind of weird because you're sitting in your own little you know, I was in our office with a dog on the floor, you know, farting and sitting there looking at bits and stuff. And I'm doing this very grown up kind of submission and anyone, and you see yourself like like in a meeting, you don't see yourself and so virtually you're always [00:27:30] looking at yourself. It's kind of weird. But also, if somebody just walked in, they'd see me sitting there talking to a screen in this very, you know, earnest way. And it's just it's quite a weird, surreal kind of thing. Um, it doesn't feel like you're talking to real human beings. Um, but, you know, in some ways, it was not probably as nerve wracking as doing it live because you're in a more comfortable setting. And, you know, the best ones. One was a guy that that, uh, an anti [00:28:00] anti conversion therapy that couldn't get his camera to go the other way. So they let him go away and try and sort the technical problem. He came back. He still couldn't. So his whole submission for five minutes was his door speaking. And the second one was the academics got on the two academics, about five of them, and they said they were going to do a face, uh, Photoshop power point. And they pressed the button to start their power point. And it was like the matrix started and it just went infinity, Infinity, infinity, infinity. [00:28:30] And then they said, we need technical help. And I thought, Well, you're not at Victoria now. You can't ask the technician to come and help you with your projector. So then they said, Well, perhaps you sign off. So they sign. They did sign off, but they didn't sign off. And then they opened the next. They opened the next screen and they had two going at once, and we had the most amazing amazing squeal feedback. So that made my day. There [00:29:00] was a There was an older guy, you know, as soon as he came on, he was like, Oh, no, he's going to be one of those who's, you know, we should be allowed to tell our Children what they you know. Anyway, something was weird was happening with the sound, and he sounded like a chipmunk. So and I could see the faces of the, you know, the politicians that are on the select committee just trying so hard not to laugh how they do it like the poker faces are just like on point. Um, you need to learn that skill. Yeah. I, I wonder, [00:29:30] um, if they had 100 I don't know. How many would they all be doing that if it was actually going to Parliament to submit? I don't know. Maybe it's made it easier for people to get online and and, you know, do these crazy matrix things. But it was It did make my day my day. It it is a long haul for the politicians I hadn't been. I had realised how much Uh but they they had to sit through for those select committees, and it started with a group of them. I think we had about five all sitting together. Now they've [00:30:00] realised they need to break into into teams. You've got a B and C now. You know, we have two, Simon Bridges seats all the way through. Have you noticed that? Yeah. He's just eating peanuts. I think I don't know what's going on, but it was a burger anyway. You can't work out our political leanings, can you, Gareth? But you know what? It's I just I just got to vote. It's gonna happen. Yeah, and and there are some good points [00:30:30] being raised. Of what? You know, maybe we could tweak it here. Maybe we could tweak it there. Yes, religions need to be of Salvation Army. Have what a moment. What a moment in their submission, You know, after all these years, and they are supporting the banning of conversion therapy. Fiona Mackenzie's, uh, her submission from ST Andrews. Just I was in tears after that. There's been some amazing submissions on the banning the conversion therapy. So, you know, um, it is [00:31:00] a It is a moment in history for our community, isn't it? It really is. Absolutely, uh, another moment in history coming up. Next year is the 50th anniversary of many gay liberation groups starting in New Zealand. So it's amazing. 50 years. Can you Can you remember your first, um, encounters with the gay liberation or with, um, gay rights? Crikey. It was probably because I came out around the time of the homosexual [00:31:30] law reform. So it was It was a really active time. Um, and, you know, the, um the what was it, the Newtown Gay and Lesbian Fear. So that was kind of all around that time. So it was very positive and galvanised, and we were all together on this cause, um and it's it's kind of sad to see how that's changed for the cause for our trans and Non-binary communities. Now, you know, there's nothing galvanising us. It's actually [00:32:00] pulling us apart, but yeah, it was a It was a really incredible time. Yeah, yeah. I. I, um I ran away overseas with my new girlfriend that I that I had on from the soccer team and I was overseas for about three years. I came back in 89 and, um was quietly taken up to me, and my world was like, Oh, my God, there's more of us. And a very strong M has, you know, been there since Yeah, I don't [00:32:30] know. It's been there forever north. And there was some great women. There be, uh, as one with great politics. So that was sort of how I was immersed into the world. But I remember, um, the first night going up, going up to me and my girlfriend and taken there by the, uh, the goalie from the soccer team. And we were all in the closet. We were not. We would not come out because we we knew if we came out in the football team up in Palmerston North, [00:33:00] uh, it would, uh, it it wasn't worth it to do that. So, you know, times have changed. Um, gee, they started a winter's football team. Everyone was out. You know that even within 5, 10 years, that all all changed. So it's it's, um there's always some some spearheading, isn't there Those ones that spearhead the, uh, the campaigns are out there protesting and doing all the good work. So Um, yeah. I think [00:33:30] you know, I've got a group of people that I adore that have shown me the way of, um, putting on a tutu and writing on chalk on things and doing all that sort of stuff and turning up to protest. So 50 years from now, So we're talking in 2072. What would you What would you want? How would you see the Rainbow Communities? Ok, so I had this moment a wee while ago. I probably even told you this. Um, it might have just been last year. Some kids [00:34:00] were scootering past our house and one of them yelled out to the other one. I don't know what the name was. Hey, do you know what? And in the future, people will have to come out as straight. And I thought, Yeah, that's the future. You know, there is no like, it doesn't matter how you identify. What matters is that you identify yourself. Yeah, I would like to see a world that's non binary, that pink isn't used on every female product. That, um that [00:34:30] advertising isn't the sole focus of what people should look like. I'd like to see II I do hope that we live in a world that is just accepting of a diversity and difference, and that goes down to everything. We can't even get colour sorted. I always say to Val, this Earth is in kindergarten stage. You know, we can't even get the basics sorted. So I would love to see in that in that time that, um gosh, I'd love to time travel and see what it's like. [00:35:00] I hope I hope I hope that we learn from from this pandemic and we learn from climate change. And we learn that, um, the only way that you can get get Oh, you got to care for the planet and you got to care for people full stock, really? And the dogs and the animals and the cats and the hamsters. And but, you know, and there's no. And he and are things that were a thing of the past. Yeah. So I'd just like [00:35:30] to do two things before we wrap up. Um, one is Can you Can you tell me the the quote that you mentioned in your press release? Um, could you just tell me that? Because it's great. So, um, it's you know, icon Dolly Parton, and I'm going to do it in her voice as best as I can. She says, if you want to have a rainbow, you got to put up with some rain And it's true, isn't it? It and to make on the parade. And we're still out there, you know? So yeah. Yeah, I know I look like her and everything, but, you know, [00:36:00] absolutely. Um, the last thing Do you mind if we walk across the rainbow crossing and actually have a little pride parade? Just the four of us. Why don't you take some chalk and chalk on the way? I'm gonna put the brolly up, just in case it rains. Yeah, take a dog. And this is, uh I think we're actually we've just seen some other people over the road who might might be coming into the pride parade as well. Um, and we can actually just see how long the parade actually is. Yeah. [00:36:30] Hello? Hello. Good. We're just We're just about to do an unofficial, unofficial shortest pride parade. Would you like to join us? Mhm. Join us, Janet, we're doing an unofficial. That's the deputy mayor. All right, Here we go. We're crossing. Well, who's timing this [00:37:00] happy pride? Hey. Yeah, There we go. Look, it still works. It still works. And you're gonna be turned into, uh, into big rainbows. Yes, I can see it's all happened. Look, we're all being turned it out. We've just been turned queer, our deputy mayor. We're just, uh, Garris interviewing us about, uh, just the cancellations this year and how it's affected affected us. But we're, you know, onward and upward and yeah, yeah, it's certainly a tough [00:37:30] time for anybody doing events at the moment. And lots of events have had to be postponed. Cancelled, but roll on summer, if we're all vaccinated, we can start enjoying events again outdoors. So that'll be great. Cool. So that was it. The world's shortest unofficial official pride parade. Yeah, yeah.

IRN: 3464
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/a_queer_existence_launch.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004630
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089924
TITLE: A Queer Existence launch
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Anna Brown; Fran Wilde; Geraint Scott; Marion Castree; Mark Beehre; Mike Bryant; Neill Ballantyne
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; 2020s; A Queer Existence (book); Anna Brown; Des Smith; Fran Wilde; Gavin Young; Geraint Scott; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); John Jolliff; Kerry Brown; Marion Castree; Mark Beehre; Massey University Press; Men Alone - Men Together (book); Mike Bryant; Neill Ballantyne; Unity Books; Wellington; photography
DATE: 19 October 2021
YEAR: 2021
LOCATION: Unity Books, 57 Willis Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Books for a Queer Existence by Mark, published by Mesa University Press. Um, And tonight we've got to speakers with us as well. We've got Anna Brown, um, representing herself and also [00:00:30] Nicola from Massey University Press. Um, and Fran Wilde is here as well. Um, so this is pretty amazing night in more ways than one, because we've got, uh Oh. Sorry. It was a bit jazzy, wasn't it? Yeah. Um, this is amazing for us to be having this event tonight because A we [00:01:00] Unity launched his first book. Men alone men together. That was in 2010. Um, so this a passage, Um, that marks keeping up with with the cultural sort of values and surroundings that are happening here in a So it's really important for that reason. And also, this is our first event. Um, you know, level two, that sort of thing. So it's amazing to have all of you here nicely spaced out, [00:01:30] all marked up. It's really endearing. So thank you all for coming. Um, so, first of all, we've got, um, Mark having to speak. Um, then an And then finally, Fran, there may be an opportunity if we've got time for some open mic moments from people. Um perhaps who were in the first book? Um, and then the books will be available, uh, for purchase if you want to buy them, and they've been signed. But Mark is happy to [00:02:00] just do a special message for you as well. So without more from me, let's give a warm welcome to Mark and thank you to Unity Books and to Marion for the opportunity to be here tonight. And to celebrate the launch of this book, we'd actually like to start with Anna Brown from Massey University Press. Um, so I I welcome Anna to to [00:02:30] speak. Jacinda takes her mask off, so I think we can, uh um I'm the chair of Massey University Press. And this evening I'm going to speak on my behalf. And on behalf of Nicola, the publisher of Massey University Press. So, uh, Nicola sends her welcomes and greetings from level three, where life goes on and on. Uh, Nicola is very sorry to not be here [00:03:00] in Wellington tonight for this launch, Um, but is happy that it's going ahead and thanks very much to Marian and Unity and their willingness to host an event under Level two protocols and to keep everybody safe. Uh, Nicola sends her, um, greetings and says, I wish we could have offered you a drink to salute Mark, but such are the times we live in. So let's just celebrate and lift our hands to Mark. Uh, thank you for being here this evening. Uh, it's [00:03:30] potentially a smaller crowd than if we'd staged this event in level one. But we know that many other people are here in spirit. I remember around 18 months ago this book coming across our desks at the Massey University, uh, press meetings and the proposal to acquire this book was enthusiastically received and agreed. We wish to thank Dame Fran Wild for agreeing to launch the book this evening and for putting up with our many date changes as we dealt with the fluid, [00:04:00] covid level issues that have dogged us since September when this book was meant to be published. I'm sure you'll agree that when that Dame Fran has been absolutely pivotal to our current legislative situation. The framework of this book is conversations with young men born after the passing of the homosexual law reform act. Many people worked so hard to ensure that act was passed. But without Dame Fran's actions within government in the first place, it would never have progressed at that time. Thank you to the remarkable [00:04:30] young men who spoke candidly to mark and shared their lives with him. That takes courage and conviction, and we don't underestimate the magnitude of that decision. I'm sure that helped that mark, uh, they would have encountered a new a gentle, sincere spirit, someone determined to bring about this unique and important documentary project in a manner that has integrity, respect and wisdom. Today, in a review of the book, [00:05:00] UH, site David, Hi said about a queer existence. Having grown up in an era where images and autobiographies of this nature did not exist, a queer existence documents lives that might not be entirely new to me, but are certainly more change than I could have once hoped. Its existence alone is significant. It's perspective is important. That is certainly what drew us to this book and fired our determination to work with Mark to publish it. Mark, [00:05:30] we have loved working with you, and it has been a great pleasure and privilege every step of the way. This is a legacy project of which you can truly be proud. Uh, we want to thank Ross for his support of Mark. We don't often don't pause at book launches to think of the many people who are there for our authors during those times when a book became all consuming. But they truly deserve our thanks. Thank you. Also, to those who gave the financial support that made this project possible. [00:06:00] It has one been one of those. It takes a village projects so ably helmed by an outstanding researcher, writer and photographer. Thank you, Mark and Bravo. We now look forward to welcoming you to the microphone. Thank you, Anna, and thank you to everyone who's here today. This day has been a long time coming. It's 10 years since I first contemplated [00:06:30] the idea of doing a project like this of recording the experiences of gay more gay men born since the passing of the Homosexual Law Reform Act in 1986. And it's not uncommon now to speak of people who don't realise that there was a time when sex between men was a criminal offence that could have technically resulted in imprisonment. Indeed, that was the experience of one of the people in the book who until the time that, uh, someone approached him to see if he'd be interested in the project [00:07:00] didn't realise that there had been that era, that there had been that significant change in in New Zealand's legislative framework. And that's to say nothing of the lack of knowledge of the dramatic, um events, the the the demonstrations in the streets and the social polarisation that accompanied the campaign for law reform. Other participants in the project. They were much more aware of our [00:07:30] our his history and of the historical background to their own lives as one of them, Kerry Donovan Brown said. After moving to Wellington and becoming more comfortable with my sexuality, I started appreciating my queer ancestors and the struggle they had in creating the opportunities and well being that are available to me. Now Fran is going to speak a little about the law reform campaign, and from this perspective of the book, it was a symbolic turning point around which to frame these [00:08:00] lives. It was a symbolic turning point at which to to start the recording of a different era. We would like to think in our history there have been dramatic shifts in the social acceptance of a whole range of different ways of being in terms of sexual orientation and gender expression. And one of the things I say in the introduction to the book is that it's very easy when something has become routine, when something's become part of the framework of society to stop paying [00:08:30] attention to it, to stop noticing it. The analogy that I use is that if if you're overseas on holiday, you take photographs of everything you see, you take photographs of. If you're in Vienna, you take photographs of people having coffee in the square, whereas back home in Wellington you we pay no attention to those sorts of things. And so it is with gay lives, perhaps that in this era where gay people are so much part of the fabric of society, it's [00:09:00] very easy to forget that the the world we live in, where same sex relationships are recognised, where there's, you know, the the same sex people can marry where our human rights are protected. It's very easy to forget that this is quite a unique period in the history of the at least the English speaking Western European cultural tradition that that we've inherited. And we know that pre prior to [00:09:30] colonisation attitudes of Maori towards same sex relationships appeared to have been very different and much more accepting. But in the context of our English speaking culture, this is a unique moment. And so now that it's no longer remarkable to be gay. I thought it was still important to document these experiences, to have AAA record of what it was like for at least some of these people, some of these guys growing up. [00:10:00] And I'd just like to comment on some of my other things I was interested in. As I said about doing the beginning this project, I was interested to find out exactly how different the experiences of these gay or queer men who had been born since law reform, how different those experiences were from their forebears, and whether it really was easier to live now than in the past to live a life that gave expression to that drive or longing for intimate connection with someone of one's own sex. [00:10:30] I was curious about the earliest manifestations of those desires and what sense people made of them. I wanted to know what it was like to grow up. In an era where HIV aids had been so strongly linked to expressions of gay sexuality, I wondered what awareness this new generation had of these events in history. And from a theoretical perspective, I wanted to explore the relationship between a person's evolving sense of self and the prevailing social discourses or narratives [00:11:00] around same sex desire and its expression. So those were some of the things that were on my mind as I began this project, and I won't speak for too long. But I started it as part of a master of fine arts at Auckland University, uh, back in 2012, and then I carried on working on the project since then, and I'm so pleased now that it's come to come to fruition. Part of my motivation, as I said, was a documentary one. [00:11:30] But I also see this book as a vehicle, or I offer this book as a vehicle for promoting understanding and empathy, and I hope it will provide a way into the experiences and the lives of the people whose stories I've been privileged to share. What I wanted to do was to open up a world to the lived experience, the subjective experience of growing up in a world and growing up with the experience of [00:12:00] knowing sexual and romantic and emotional yearning for the companionship of of someone of one's own own sex. And I wanted to open up those experiences and provide a window into those. And so I've tried to do that both with the stories and with the photographs. And so I hope that this book will not only record the experiences of the people in it [00:12:30] but enrich and deepen the understanding and empathy of family, of friends, of teachers, of parents, of counsellors and of everyone else in the world who might be reading this and who might be engaging with with all of us actually in in this world in this society, I've mentioned in the preface or the introduction that belatedly, I became aware. As I was editing the stories, I became aware [00:13:00] of so many resonances with my own experience, and that certainly wasn't the reason for doing the book. But I realised that there are so many commonalities between these these guys stories and what I lived through, even though it was a generation earlier and what so many other gay men have lived through. And my own experience was a very in in many ways, uh, not an easy journey growing [00:13:30] up in a Pentecostal Christian church and having the experience at 19 or so of falling deeply in love with a man from the church and then coming to the point where this was such an internal contradiction between feeling I'm a Christian and yet I'm in love with a man that this was something I almost couldn't live with. Uh, that took me to the verge of suicide, to be honest at that age of 19 or 20 it was many years before I work that [00:14:00] through to come to the point of, uh, embracing who I am. And so I want to pave a way, I suppose, for people to accept and understand themselves in a greater degree. And so there are all those complex and interweaving reasons behind doing a project like this. And yet, as it is in the end, I hope it will stand as a as a historical record and as a worthwhile, worthwhile project. [00:14:30] I've got a huge number of thanks to give to people. Firstly, I want to thank all of the participants in the project because it is such an act of courage and bravery to share something of your or so much of your own life. And to put that on public record. So in particular, I think there are a few people who are here tonight. Uh, I think I saw. And, uh, and Neil is here. Uh, Anthony, is there anyone else that I've forgotten or haven't [00:15:00] mentioned? Who's here? Van was going to be here, but I'm not sure that he is. Oh, yes. Hi. Thanks. So to you guys who are here tonight, thank you very much. And to all the ones who are not here. Thank you as well for your Yeah, your generosity and courage. Of course, I'd like to thank Anna and I owe a huge, um, depth of thanks to Nicola Leggett at Massey University Press who not only has been the publisher, but the editor [00:15:30] and worked so hard with me to bring these these these stories into into the shape that you see them see them now, Um, also the other members of the team at Massey Massey University Press. Um, I'd like to thank everyone who introduced me to people, and Francis is one of the ones who introduced me to someone, and there may be other people here who've introduced me to to people. So thank you to all of you. I'd like to thank uh, James Gilbert, who's been a longtime [00:16:00] supporter of my photographic career. He's exhibited some of the photographs for this project in his gallery at Photos Space, uh, and who who certainly helped with the the editing of the images and my thanks to to John Williams, a long time long, long standing friend who's taking the photographs here, who's sort of been with me through all my various projects that I've worked on. I'd like to thank the people who've offered financial support to the to the book and again of the ones who are here tonight. I think there's Hank and John. [00:16:30] Thank you, Uh, Des and John, uh, Ross and Jason, Anthony and Dirk and Jan. So if there's anyone else who's here tonight that I haven't spotted thank you to as well uh, thanks to you To Chris Brickle for writing the forward, uh, to creative New Zealand for, um, supporting me at various stages during during this work, uh, to unity books for hosting this event to Fran for for launching it to Ross, my partner, um, [00:17:00] for his forbearance and to all those friends and who've shared in this journey over the over the years. So again, a huge thanks to all of those people. And I'd like to welcome Fran to speak. Just leave it next. Well, um, Marian and Unity Team, thanks for having us. This is just another one of your fabulous [00:17:30] events. You are known in Wellington, this bookshop in Wellington and in New Zealand. Um so Mark and Anna, um, everybody here tonight. I just want to particularly acknowledge the, um, guys who are in the book. This is pretty brave. It doesn't matter how quietly or or law abidingly you're living. Having this sort of stuff written about you must be pretty hard. So I really want to acknowledge your, um, [00:18:00] commitment and bravery and agreeing to Obviously this guy's a real bully. He got you into it, but, um, thank you very much. for doing this. I. I, um this book is really interesting. I read it and had a lot of mixed feelings. I don't want to talk a long time about law reform. What happened? But of course, a lot of you here tonight don't know what happened. And you won't remember a guy called Muldoon or what New Zealand was like before. You know, like, a long time ago. Um, [00:18:30] it was pretty bad. And there are people here tonight who worked on the campaign. I have to acknowledge, Des, who came into the office at Parliament into my office. I was one of the whips every night practically and did all the mail outs because we didn't have social media, which is probably a good thing in those days. Um, actually, I'm not sure how this would have gone if we'd had social media then, but we did a lot of mail outs and we used Hm. Yes, [00:19:00] yes, that's right. We had telephone trees we had like, you wouldn't believe what we did. We had speakers all over the country. Yada ya So dear And John, I think we were the first people married after the marriage equality Bill. Civil union. Sorry. Wrong one. Yes. And I think that's Gavin under that blue mask. Is that you, Gavin? This is all right. It's really hard these days to recognise people in the street. Um, because you really need the mouth and the smile, [00:19:30] I think, to make it work. But, um so, Anna, thanks for publishing and Nico. I want to acknowledge her. Um, So when this bill was going through Parliament, um, gay men in New Zealand were illegal citizens, and most of them were living very quiet lives. I grew up in Wellington, and I were when I was a teenager, I if I'd thought about it, which I didn't I probably would have said, I don't know any gay people. [00:20:00] Actually, I did. I realised later, um, but they were not, um, either self iying publicly or identified. And, um, you know, we had Uncle Mac, who was a bachelor living by himself and a quiet life. I think, um uh, I suspect he he probably didn't have a partner. I mean, it was just would have been too hard, actually, in those days, and the penalties were too [00:20:30] great. So, um, when the, um uh, I thank you for the intro, too, Which was really helpful Was good. All that perspective about all the other, um, people before who had done the work, which was really important, I have to say, and you know, the Dorian Society and the various manifestations of things. It was really helpful because, um, we were at a stage where we had to have that law change. Um, but it was still hard. So the fundamentalist Christians were really, [00:21:00] um, vehemently opposed. They were funded. They had people sent over. Um, it was a major campaign that we did. I actually went over to New York in the middle of the campaign to try and work out. I mean, we things were not going well at one stage, and so I wanted to talk to people there and find out how they were managing the issues there, and it was really helpful. But, um, it was, um, just it wasn't quite the same as the Springbok tour, [00:21:30] which had a lot of street mobilisation. Although there were demos. There were a lot of, um, big public meetings that got pretty unruly. And I remember at one stage, driving round and around when you could drive around the town hall when there was a meeting going on here, knowing all my mates were inside and and wondering what the thing was going on, you know, was there violence what was happening to them? And this was a big meeting held by the fundamentalists, and they'd gone to disrupt it, which is good, although I did not [00:22:00] want too much disruption because I wanted our people to be seen to be, you know, the the, um, have the kind of moral superiority, you know, over the fundamentalist Christians. But, um, it was it was actually pretty ghastly, I think for the guys at that stage. So the real heroes of gay law reform were the men who came out and visibility was absolutely key. We knew that most New Zealanders probably [00:22:30] wrongly thought they didn't know any gay men. And so there was this stereotype that gay men were child molesters, which of course, is completely untrue. Statistically, child molesters are generally heterosexual men who are family members. And that's the the the most common. Um, you know, profile. But most a lot of New Zealanders didn't understand that. So we needed not only to have the medical people who helped us in the and the clergy [00:23:00] who helped us, and we did have them and the legal people and you know, everybody and, you know, there there were a lot of people, the professionals who helped with information and who declared, you know, important facts. But actually, we also needed people to be seen to be gay and seem to be not child molesters. So when people started coming out, there was kind of astonishment. Almost people. Oh, there's Charlie [00:23:30] or John or somebody I work with somebody I work with, Um, my neighbour, my old schoolmate, my brother, my son or my husband, actually, And that was what happened. So we had people all over the country suddenly finding that they not only knew a gay man or men, but actually closely related in some cases. And it was so powerful you just couldn't imagine the impact [00:24:00] that that had on people because it completely destroyed the stereotypes that that that had been built up and that were being reinforced by the people opposing this legislation. So I just want to I always say this when I speak this is the single most important thing. And, you know, I cannot acknowledge strongly enough how, um how, um seminal that was in getting this legislation through. And it was a close vote. You don't want to get too much closer than that in parliament, because [00:24:30] then you're getting one each way. Um, but we we we got there in the end. So reading this for me was really interesting because I knew that because we didn't get the human rights part of the bill through, we had to leave that that was almost like the insurance policy that some of the MP S we kind of knew they weren't going to vote for it. And But they saw voting that part down as being insurance for them for their in their electorate. Oh, well, you know, I we [00:25:00] had to decriminalise, but we're not gonna make you employ gay men or have them in your, you know, your motel or anything like that. Uh, but and we knew we just had to come back another day and get that through. And Catherine O'Regan did that. And I want to acknowledge her too. She was a national party MP and she helped, and she fought very hard for this, but and so we knew we it wasn't complete. But we did think that, um, decriminalisation [00:25:30] would give a platform for more men just to be able to be themselves. And gradually, we hoped over, You know, I hoped. Anyway, over the years, the stereotypes might go, and there might be more acceptance. So, reading this, first of all, I was really shocked that actually, um, a lot of the guys interviewed for Mark's book were saying the same thing as probably other older men would say, um, about their childhood. [00:26:00] And I just want to read one bit, which was particularly, I mean, I was very when I read this, I was very depressed. I was reading this in bed, and at night I was reading a bit, you know, every night and and I read this and Oh, God, you know what? So what happened to New Zealand? This is is it is Are you here? Is that you? I can't see because you got a mask on. Anyway, You're older now than the photo. So are you Says the idea would be that sexuality wouldn't matter. That if [00:26:30] a boy found out at 14 or 15 that he wanted a boyfriend. Then he'd just do it and it wouldn't even be a be a thing. Absolutely. That was what I thought, too. Everyone would just accept that people are gay or straight. But that's years in the future. And this was in 2012 that that comment was made. Oops, Um, I hate that I had to hide who I was. All through high school. I didn't go through all the gay bullying and trauma that other kids do. But I regret that for the majority of my life so far, because I've only been out for three [00:27:00] or four years, had to cover up and lie to people and not be who I was during your school years. You do a lot of your growing up, and there's a whole bunch of it that I didn't do then and I'm doing now. And that was kind of a theme that I think came through here, and it's it was for me. It was really depressing because it meant that our society hadn't moved on as much as I thought it might, but it does add up to what I have observed that schools are still very dangerous places for kids and [00:27:30] kids that are gay or trans or in any way not, you know, absolutely straight. Probably. Our school environment in New Zealand has not is not yet even 10 years after you said that working for them. And, um um, I don't know what the answer is. I do think we need more, uh, leadership on this from educators, but also, parents who are good need to be demanding this. And, [00:28:00] um, the schools need to be giving that support, but that's certainly what I've observed, um, in the, you know, over the years that they're still probably not very safe. Some are obviously, there are. There are some that are really great, but not many of them not. So, um, I guess there's still more to be done. And these sorts of, um, reading these experiences, I think will help, because people will actually be able to understand what it's like. These are [00:28:30] this is beautifully written. It's very easy to read. It's very compelling, and it's, you know, it wasn't a hard read. Oh my God, I got to read that again. You just wanted to finish off the stories. They're great stories. So, um, congratulations, mark on that and to all of you who are in the book. Um, and I hope that this helps so that the next generation of kids actually can have a that a lot easier, because this is not what they should be worrying about. Well, being a going through your childhood and puberty [00:29:00] is difficult enough as it is. You shouldn't have to worry about this sort of thing. So, um, congratulations to everybody. I'm glad this book's published, and I hope that a lot of people read it. Not just people in the gay community. It needs to be read by a lot of people who are just curious to know, Um, what other people are like and for us in New Zealand, Frankly, apart from covid, which is pretty awful, climate change is gonna be the big issue. We need [00:29:30] to be getting all those other issues out of the way. Because actually, this, you know, we shouldn't have these kind of personal issues for people anymore. So thank you for doing this. Um, and I, as I said, I hope you sell a lot. I hope you're gonna promote this with your staff. Everybody comes in the door, and we need some good, more good reviews, too. So I'm sure that Anna will be able to engineer that. So thank you, everybody for coming. Well done. All [00:30:00] of you are in it. And, um, more strength to you all. Thank you very much, Fran. Just before we finish. And, um, one more word of thanks to Gareth for recording this for for posterity. Um, but just before we finish, if there is anyone who is in the book who would like to say anything about their experience of having been part [00:30:30] of the project, this is a bit of an open mic for you to to come and say whatever you'd like to for a few minutes. Yeah. Good, everyone, uh, my name is Mike, and I'm in the book at some point. I can't remember what page. Um, well, he's a good boyfriend. Um, yeah. So, um, as was said, these interviews were about 10 years ago, and I'd sort of forgotten that they happened until got [00:31:00] a message, uh, a little bit ago, just being like, you know, the books coming out and My first thought was God, I hope I was honest. Um, and I was, which is really nice. Um, but I just really wanted to acknowledge all the work that went into it. And, um, thank Mark for all the work that was put in. It was really cool. It's such an honour to be a part of what I think is a really, really important book. Um, And I also just want to acknowledge, obviously, um because this book [00:31:30] is all about gay men, and I just think it's important to also acknowledge women and trans people and non-binary people who also did a lot of for the queer community. So I just wanted to acknowledge that and thank Mark so th thanks, Mike. Anyone else? I'm not looking at anyone. I'm looking around at the ceiling, Neil. [00:32:00] Cheers killed everyone. I'm another one of Mark's boys. I'm more of a man now, I guess, um, yeah, I did, um, just want to take the opportunity to talk a little bit more about what it was like to be a part of the project and part of, um, contributing to what is really an incredible volume. Um, at the time. I had no idea there'd be so many. So many people [00:32:30] are going through this experience. So many people sharing their stories, uh, to create this text, which I think really is incredibly historic. Um, and really will be looked back in as such a a sort of, um, turning point. Um, in our history from 1986 where things were illegal to this first generation of people who got to stand on the shoulders of giants and and live our lives. Um, free from not quite all discrimination. Um, as mentioned, um, [00:33:00] but free from at least, uh, that legal discrimination, Um, So we could be ourselves. Uh, Mark, it was an absolute pleasure to be part of the project. Um, I don't know if you've ever been a formal counsellor in your life. Uh, but it was definitely a cathartic experience to share my story with you. I think in the end, we had two sessions. Um, just because the conversation was so good and we ended up covering all kinds of topics from literally the meaning of life through [00:33:30] to actual historical details. Um, along the way. Um, and the photography part was also quite interesting. Um, I think for most of us, it'll probably be the one. And only time we get to be part of a photo shoot like that, um, and be part of a photo spread like these, But I think when you're looking at the photos, you can see how Mark has captured people in their environments and captured, um, some of that vulnerability, Uh, but also the strength and fierceness as well, uh, behind [00:34:00] that, and you can see the real combination of the two. Um, And it was particularly an interesting experience, of course, because it was full manual photography. So he had his old school box camera out and checking the lights and getting the lighting just right. The sun was going down, and it was it was quite a a pleasure to to be part of that sort of experience. So, uh, yeah, so I think we should raise a virtual glass to mark in this project and just congratulate him once again on what an epic thing it is. So to mark. [00:34:30] Thank you. Thank you, Neil. For those those very kind words. Anyone else? Thank you. Yeah. To everyone. Um, so, yeah, like I like I said to Fran just now it's 10 years. Um, it was very not jarring in a negative sense, but just, you know, rereading the things that I said that and, like Mike had said [00:35:00] had just vanished from my brain completely. Uh, yeah. It was an interesting experience to see who who that person was and what they sound like. This is how how how I sort of sound and feel about myself now, but, uh uh, yeah, yeah, it was fantastic to see it come to fruition and just to sort of think Oh, OK, I I was that person. That's all true. But how? How would I say all of this now? How would I think about this now? And there's just so much more added on top of that, more relationships [00:35:30] and more self realisations and things. Um but yeah, it's it's a beautiful project, and it's, uh it was wonderful to read the stories of other people as well. Uh, as an aside, one of the the boys who lives in Auckland, uh, him and I have actually flirted a bit, and I didn't realise he was a part of the project until I saw his face in there, which was very interesting to turn the page like Oh, OK, there you are. But, uh uh, yeah, and and thank [00:36:00] you again to Mike for for pointing out that, um you know, we we we also need to see this kind of project for for everyone across our queer community and to record everyone's experiences. And And I hope we see those projects and get to to read about the rich lives of lesbians and trans people and everyone. Um, yeah, and And Fran, you brought up my quote, um, which, you know, unfortunately, I don't know how much further it's come along. Uh, probably some, but, you [00:36:30] know, I was I was talking, uh, as as someone who grew up in New Plymouth. Right? And I'm sure there are the stereotypes of New Plymouth that that a lot of you have, which, you know, stereotypes exist for a reason and wasn't wasn't quite a horrific place to grow up, but definitely, uh, I didn't see myself reflected anywhere, except maybe in some negative lights, and and I it would be interesting to go back to my my school now and sort of ask what they're doing, what they've thought about. I suspect [00:37:00] the answer is sweet. If, um but, you know, to be honest, this is kind of prompting me to maybe actually go do that myself and and find out that. Yeah, I. I really hope that, uh, sometime soon we see we see a lot more of those que trade alliances and the like at our schools and and that the kids don't feel that way because, uh, yeah, I've I've I've seen seen online a lot of people talking about having their almost second puberty, [00:37:30] you know, after they've come out and realising, Oh, there's so much I didn't do, um, so much. I never learned about myself when everyone else was, uh during those sort of 5 to 8 years the intermediate high school. And, you know, I'm coming on 31 now paying a mortgage, all these things. And yet I'm still sort of realising things about myself or or having experiences that might have happened so much further in the past. So yeah, it's [00:38:00] it's it's very interesting to see this come out, um, and and, you know, reading my own words and reflecting on on who that person was, but yeah, once again, Mark, just well done. It's an incredible project. You've done so much hard work. And you know, you've acknowledged all those people around you, which is brilliant, but this happened because you had a vision, and you just went through it. And, you know, 10 years of your life devoted to something like this is really beautiful. So well done to you, and [00:38:30] great to see some of these other guys here. And thank you so much, everyone. Tha thanks very much, Gere, for your for your your kind words. You know anyone else you'd like to speak? Yes. Yes. My sense is that, um and and I appreciate and the timing of when you did the book, but [00:39:00] two comments, I suppose. I think there is hope out there. You know, I, I have a lot of, um uh, friends who, uh, have grown up since law reform. Who for whom, Perhaps don't understand or don't know, some of the history, um, and for which being out and or gay and out, you know, is is is normal and accepted, and and they're quite comfortable with that. My question is, in a fucking, um, take the in terms [00:39:30] of of standing on the shoulders of giants. Do you get the sense that we've forgotten some of the struggles that Fran Fran talked about in terms of of getting law reform, getting marriage equality? Do you think we've forgotten some of those struggles? And so the people that are growing up now since that time have forgotten that. And perhaps we are, um we're not giving it the credence. We're not giving it the respect that it deserves. And therefore [00:40:00] we're losing some of that, that of what people like you know, and that have been through, I think we've forgotten some of that. I think one of the things that, uh, well, my partner Ross often says is that in the queer community and as gay men, we're often we're not actually brought up by our our elders. So we in many cases we grow up not hearing the [00:40:30] stories of those who've come in generations before us, and that probably goes for our society as a whole. Our society is very age stratified and so, but particularly for queer people, we don't grow up with the stories of our grandfathers and our grandmothers and our fathers and our mothers being passed on to us. So it is easy not to be aware of of the history, and many people in the book had read about it or were interested in [00:41:00] it or had heard about it or had talked to people. But as I said, there were also some in the in the book who hadn't been aware of of what had gone before. And I guess part of what I'm I'm doing and and and and putting this putting this out is actually wanting to commemorate the history, wanting to to document the history. And that's in part why I put so much time and into into the introduction into setting these stories in a historical context or in the context [00:41:30] of the the histories or the stories of what it has been like to be a queer man in this in this country. So I think your point is valid, and I think it is very important to keep on remembering those stories. Well, thank you very much to everyone for being here tonight. I'll hand back over to Marion in a second, but it's been lovely to see you all and lovely to know that everyone's here, despite the various, [00:42:00] uh, postponements and reschedulings and cancellations and covid restrictions that we've had to live with. So thank you very much to everyone. Thank you so much. Um, Mark and and Fran an enormous thanks to all you people that came tonight. Um, I'd forgotten about covid. It was just like we were somewhere else. We were so many different places, weren't we? [00:42:30] Yeah. Um, but anyway, great to have everyone here in the same room celebrating It's a remarkable book. Um, yeah. So well done, all of you, all the people on it and everyone that worked on it and everyone who's come to celebrate it, it's very important. But anyway, have a great rest of the night. Um, and if you care to, we have books for sale. Um, and Mark will, uh, sign for you if you'd like that as well. Um, but otherwise, just enjoy [00:43:00] yourselves for the rest of the night, and we'll see you soon. You're welcome.

IRN: 3457
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/suffrage_day_for_all_women.html
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089923
TITLE: Suffrage Day For All Women
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VOICES: Kate Power; Kay Jones; Maddy Drew; Serah Allison
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Act 2021; COVID-19 (coronavirus); COVID-19 lockdown; Club Ivy; Conversion Practices Prohibition Legislation Bill (2021); Cuba Mall; Cuba Street; International Socialist Organisation Aotearoa; International Socialist Organization (ISO); Kay Jones; Member of Parliament; OUTLine NZ; Queer Endurance / Defiance; Serah Allison; Speak Up For Women NZ; Suffrage Day For All Women (2021); Suffragettes NZ; Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust (United Kingdom); Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); Wellington; Women's Suffrage Day, Fight for our Rights! (2021); Women's suffrage petition (1893); activism; civil unions; dog whistle; drag; exclusion; facebook. com; faith; family; fear; feminism; filming; hate; human rights; lesbian; marginalisation; marginalised communities; misogyny; non-binary; patriarchal system; persecution; puberty; puberty blockers; select committee; social media; testosterone (T); torture; trans; trans man; trans woman; transgender; transgender activism; transition; transmasculinity; transphobia; universal suffrage; women's rights; women's space; womens suffrage
DATE: 19 September 2021
YEAR: 2021
LOCATION: Cuba Mall, Cuba Mall, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the Suffrage Day For All Women event organised by Queer Endurance/Defiance on 19 September 2021. The event was organised in part to counter the Fight for our Rights! march held by Suffragettes NZ. The events happened during Covid-19 Alert Level 2, with social distancing and face masks. A special thank you to the organisers and participants for allowing this event to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So my name's Sarah. Um, we're here in Cuba Street. Um, so it's, um, women's Suffrage Day. And we want to celebrate that, Um, but, um, we're here as part of the group Queer Endurance Defiance to make a statement on behalf of queer people to celebrate, um, women's suffrage day. Um, but be completely inclusive, um, of all women. So that includes trans women as well. And then also make a statement for, you know, wider [00:00:30] suffrage as well. So, you know, universal suffrage. So, what sparked this event today? Um, look, there are other groups that are doing, um, anti trans dog whistles. Um, you know, using the women's suffrage, um, event as an excuse. Um, and I think it's important for for us to make a statement that the Trans people are here as well, and and and and, you know, we're present. We want to be included in society, but we're not trying to take over anyone's spaces or anything like that. You know, we we're just [00:01:00] trying to stand up for ourselves here. So can you describe what's going to happen today? Oh, look, we're just getting a rally together. Um, we're expecting something in the order, maybe of of 10 to 50 people. Something like that. You know, Not a large gathering. It's still level two of, um of covid times. So that's the That's the way these things go. Um, look, we've got some placards here. We're gonna, um, just get together in a in a in a little sort of celebration. Um, you know, make a statement to any general public. And I'm not sure if we have a larger number of people, we might need to just sort of move, [00:01:30] you know, so that we don't have a large gathering all in one place, but that's about it, Really. So since we last saw each other, which was in, I think June, which was outside the Michael Fowler Centre. Um, quite a bit has happened in terms of the legislation through parliament. Can you describe, um, that Give me an update of what's been happening? Well, there's been a couple of bills and and quite a rush. Um, first of all, the conversion therapy bill. Um, so a fantastic idea to try to prevent, um, [00:02:00] you know, conversion therapy, uh, as as a as a form of torture, essentially being forced up on queer people. But there were obviously some moves from some groups to exclude. Um, trans people from, you know, um from being disallowed, um, or or from it being disallowed to for them to be tortured, which obviously that's that's not OK. The other piece of legislation, which is actually kind of what we were talking about back at the Michael Centre is the, um B MD RR bill, Uh, which is just the, um, the piece of legislation that makes it very slightly [00:02:30] easier for trans people to change one of their pieces of documentation. Their birth certificate. So submissions have just closed on that bill. Do you have a, um, an idea of how many people submitted? Not on that one yet. I haven't I haven't seen a statement about about how many people? Um, I would guess. Apparently, the conversion therapy was about 100,000, which is amazing. I would guess there would have been quite a lot on this, but probably not quite as many, because it is a bit more of a niche issue. Can you describe, um, since June? What? What? What? The mood has been [00:03:00] in, um, transgender communities to because there has been a lot of media attention, hasn't there? Yeah. I mean, like all groups, you know, we're not one homogenous group. We have a lot of, um, different people with different feelings and different opinions. You know, it's a It's a scary time because, you know, we're making some good little gains. Um, in terms of being, um, being a little bit more noticed, a little bit more talked about, um But, you know, it does shine a spotlight on [00:03:30] us and sometimes, um, being hidden as safer as well, So some people will be feeling unsafe. And, you know, it would be scary for them, uh, for other people. Yeah, we're excited about the, um you know, the the the new developments. Overall, I think this is going to end up going in a in a good direction, you know? But we do have to stand our place, Um, and and and, um Yeah, just just, um, make sure that we are included as well. Yeah. Hi. Um, my name is [00:04:00] Caden Hunter. I'm a non binary, trans masculine person. I go by he MC M pronouns. Um, I've been transitioning for medically on testosterone for five years. Um, today we're at Cuba Street by the bucket fountain. Um, we're doing a counter protest against, um, another march, uh, set up by a group of people claiming [00:04:30] to be, uh, suffered suffragists. That's that's the word. And, um, they had a pretty strange little pamphlet go out. Uh, talking about, um, how women's rights is being are being eroded like, 01 day men are gonna be in the women's bathrooms and all that, and, um, lesbians are being forced to sleep with men and gender. Nonconforming kids are being forced to transition, which is just [00:05:00] not true. Um, as as someone who was trans myself, it took me a really long time to, um, really even seek transition. It wasn't until I was, like, 21 that I really went out and did it because I was so scared of, like, all of the, um, the barriers in our way. So as a teenager, I just didn't do it. And now I'm stuck needing to get surgeries [00:05:30] and all that. So, yeah, when you see documents like that being circulated, what does it make you feel? Uh, it makes me feel quite sort of scared and unsafe. Like I kind of realised since the last, um, protest. We did that. Um, I feel a lot more sort of on edge around other people because of it. And it's a real shame because I have just as much right to [00:06:00] exist in public spaces as anyone else, sis or trans or otherwise. So, yeah, why was it important for you to be his? Um, I just want to show solidarity with, um, the women's rights movement and, um, trans rights as well, because, um, being Trans masculine was pretty difficult [00:06:30] for me to sort of come to terms with, um, like womanhood and all that because I didn't really I'd never fit in as a woman and a lot of people sort of take that as, Oh, that's just internalised misogyny. But it never felt like that. It was just like, Yeah, women are great and I love women. And I will stand up and fight for women's [00:07:00] rights, especially because, like, it did affect me for a very long time. And it still does to some point to some degree. And, um so, yeah, I thought I should still stand up for women's rights, even though I'm no longer a woman. My name's I'm Wellington resident and also one of the queens and I and I'm here today because I saw us on Facebook and just here for solidarity [00:07:30] for much needed cause. Why was it important for you to be here today? Um, I'm here as part of the Wellington community and also as a non human. That and onto are toxic. And we need to be together to for our light, because our community has been long marginalised and it's going to be and [00:08:00] trans women a woman, trans men, a man and suffragette for older women, not only ones have you noticed a change in kind of rainbow communities or how they are treated in Wellington over the last couple of months because there's been there's been quite a lot in the media because sort of social media to divide people into a different community. I don't get to see too much or turf lacks because I know where I'm calling and I know where the information is coming. But also I've seen a lot [00:08:30] of those prominent activists was in a queer community, the Libyan an attack, especially about Dell going forward and yeah, different transphobic la not only New Zealand, but of a word. Care everyone. Thanks for coming here to our trans rights rally at Lower Cuba Street. We are queer endurance and defiance. Well, OK, we don't have the N anymore. Queer, Queer Endurance. Defiance. Um, I'm Kate [00:09:00] Power treasurer, activist, retail worker. And once again, thank you all for coming. Can I get a trans rights? Trans rights, Trans rights? Hell, yeah. So sometime in the next wee, while a rather nasty group that I do not need to dignify with their name because I I think I've already forgotten. It will be sorry [00:09:30] about that. We'll be marching past Manna Street, and I think what we need to do is just be extremely visible and make a lot of noise and show them how happy we are to be here and how they can't do shit about it once again. Can I get a chance? Right. Thank you. Well, um, I'm Kay and I'm a member of a community [00:10:00] of allies and other people supporting the rights of transgender people to be recognised for the human beings. They are on women's suffrage day. I was surprised to see that a group of women who say they speak for all women saying that transgender women are not women and they should not have the same rights as other women. And I don't agree with that. So I'm here to support others. Um, and this is not meant to be antagonistic. But just to show that there are different views on these, um issues [00:10:30] and that, you know, on a personal level, I have a commitment to all people being treated equally and fairly, and that includes changes in the law to reflect those rights and to to make it, um, fairer for everyone. This year in particular, has seen a lot of kind of rainbow issues bubbling to the surface with a lot of legislation going through Parliament. Can you, um, just paint a picture for me of, Of how do you think rainbow communities are responding and coping well, The Rainbow communities, as you know, is very wide and diverse. [00:11:00] And so some people, especially young activists, are taking to the streets like now taking to writing submissions to Parliament, which they've never done before. Speaking to select committees of their personal experiences of being, um abused or badly treated, sometimes even within faith communities that they belong to. So those people who are able to speak up are doing so. There are other rainbow people who are in communities where if it's not safe for them to speak up and they're feeling a lot of pressure [00:11:30] and they're feeling exclusion. And when somebody who they work with or who's in their family says that they're not, um, AAA fully realised human being and they don't have rights, even if they don't know that that this person is LGBT Q I or another you know, diversity. Um label, um it still has an impact on them. So it's a very stressful time for people, both those who are excited that they might get better human rights. And for those who are afraid that if the laws don't change, what will the messages [00:12:00] be to those people who are against them? So I think you know, and of course, in terms of covid and lockdown, when people are feeling isolated for some people, causes like this are something to unite over and to give each other support for and for others. Um, who may not have that community support. They feel even more isolated. So wide spectrum. And as we know, support services in New Zealand are not resourced. So if people are feeling depressed or stressed and they're reaching out for mental health support, [00:12:30] some people are saying they're phoning outline instead because that does give support to rainbow people and people who are not part of the community. So it's that, you know, trying to support each other. I suppose, Um yeah, and there's those who don't even know about the issues because they're not even, you know, on social media. And they they don't follow political news because they're just trying to get along day by day. It seems to me that just everything seems to be so amplified at the moment, just with the the lockdowns and with so much, um, things [00:13:00] happening in Parliament in terms of rainbow issues. Well, one of the things that's been really great is our parliament now has the highest proportion of LGBT Q I, um MP S in in the western world. I mean, and the whole world Really, um so we now have got voices for us there in in parliament, but of course they have to follow through the the processes. But, yeah, they're also having to deal with a lot of other issues about whether, um, marginalised communities, um, or those who don't have the resources like Maori [00:13:30] and Pacifica, whether they're getting enough vaccinations, whether people are getting food on the table, what's happening to the homeless community. So there's a whole lot of issues that I mean, every community has got LGBTI Q people in it, whether they know it or not. And so we're all affected by that background stress of We're under a lot of pressure, right? Human rights are human rights are human rights are human rights. Human rights are human [00:14:00] rights, human rights, trans rights are human rights. We are friends and we're proud. Hells, yeah, Thank you. Hey, thanks so much for coming and gathering out here. It's so good to see to to see you, to be seen. That's that's all we're trying to do, right? We're just trying to be here to to have a little bit of space to make our statement that we need to be included [00:14:30] in the LGBTI plus community. Our goal, absolutely isn't to get into any like confrontations to push other people out of any space or anything like that. Just make sure that you do. If anyone needs to come through that, we do, just let them through. Um and that we definitely don't get into any, um, physical or or even, um, you know, problematic [00:15:00] confrontation. OK, we we we're saying our thing, and we're definitely just holding our own ground. But we're not, um, we're not trying to claim anyone else's space either or or make things difficult for anyone at all. OK, we're here to be included. We don't want to be pushed out ourselves. That's what uh, some other people are trying to do to us in in legal terms and just with some of the dog whistles that they, uh, that they use as well. There's somebody standing [00:15:30] back who's wearing a woman's group ribbon. And I've just been trying to explain to her that that women's group is actually anti trans. They're not pro women. If they were pro woman, they would be campaigning about poverty. They would be campaigning about housing. They would be campaigning about violence against all women. They wouldn't just be trying to ban puberty blockers. They wouldn't just be trying to stop people transitioning. [00:16:00] They wouldn't just be being mean, because I think that's what they're doing. They would be helping helping the bigger issues for all women and all people in New Zealand, because that's more important. But instead they're out here prosecuting one of the most persecuted groups in the country who have some of the worst social statistics because of how they get treated. So if you know somebody who's in one of those groups who's wearing one of those ribbons, tell [00:16:30] them they need to. If they want to support trans people, they need to not be part of those groups. Those groups are not pro women. They are anti trans end of Thank you, Um, then in England, um, they had put a hold on the Tavistock Clinic, issuing puberty blockers to people. Sorry. [00:17:00] Hi. Hi. Um, have everybody here heard about the UK court decision about puberty blockers? There was a court case taken by a young de transition who said hey, they shouldn't be issued to anybody because, um, they had problems with them. The court, the district court there said OK. Tavis Scott Clinic couldn't issue them without a legal consent. Got a lot of young people blocked out of getting um, access to health [00:17:30] system. The Court of Appeal on Friday said the district court went way beyond what it was supposed to, didn't know what it was talking about, and, hey, clinic, you're free to go. You should be able to issue them and do it on medical grounds. It's clinicians and doctors who should say if young people can get treatment, they need or not. And that is something that a lot of young people in, um, England, who have been denied medical services, will now be able to once again get the support they need. So [00:18:00] I think that's a really important decision, and lots of people over there are great about it. Oh, thank you. Welcome. Bye. Hey, um, this is impromptu. So it's not going to be very polished. Sorry. I just wanted to, um, to add to that that the group that's campaigning against Children's right to have puberty blockers hasn't given up the fight yet. They're trying [00:18:30] to take it to the UK Supreme Court, and what they're campaigning against is no longer just Children's right to puberty blockers. It's the entire legal precedent that gives Children that right. But it's the same legal precedent that gives Children the right to puberty blockers that gives Children the right to access contraception in the UK or abortions, or all sorts of medical procedures. So it's not just a fight for trans rights there anymore. In trying to take away puberty blockers, [00:19:00] the UK anti trend groups are now also trying to take away reproductive rights. They're trying to take away women's rights in the name of feminism. How perverse is that? Yeah, and I think that's why we're here today. We wanted to do this rally on Suffrage Day, in part because that turf group was doing it. But we also wanted to say that trans rights and women's rights are a collective struggle. We have the same enemy. We need to struggle together, or we will lose separately. [00:19:30] That's all. Thank you. So I'm, um, queer. I've been involved in the queer community in Wellington for a long time. Um, so civil unions, Um, yeah, doing lots of lots of bits and pieces. Um, and I came out. I I'm 39 now, so I feel old and this is a very, um, young crowd. And so I put put on my nice [00:20:00] work clothes and came out to be respectable. Um, but then probably got into an argument with a, um uh, one of the group who are supposedly pro woman. Um, but don't realise some of them that they're anti trans, and that's really sad. So, um yeah, got a bit worked up and she told me I should be down the front saying things. So I did go down the front and say some things to everybody. Um, because, yeah, I think a lot of people don't realise that the [00:20:30] the pro women's group isn't actually particularly pro woman. They're entirely anti Trans. And I think it's really sad. Like when I first saw, um, really long standing members of the lesbian community in particular and seeing her holding up a sign that says, Ban puberty blockers. I just want to say, you know, why were puberty blockers developed? It wasn't for trans kids. It was actually for kids going through puberty too early. And so if you're just saying ban puberty [00:21:00] blockers, you're gonna be having a detrimental impact on young Children going through puberty, too. early because of your anti trans focus. And I think that's really, really sad. They've just gone down this, um, wormhole of hate. And, um, they're not thinking about how they're impacting on people, and they don't realise that they're doing too. Uh, another generation. What? They didn't like being done to them just behind us. I think the, um the other marchers coming towards us. Can you just Can you just [00:21:30] describe, Can we just go down the front here? And you just describe for me what? What it looks like? Sure thing. So there's a very small group of, um, mainly women, mainly older, holding signs. A lot of them are wearing purple or carrying purple flags, and they've got the biggest sign says Woman equals adult human female, and I yeah, I think that's just such a narrow definition, Um, that they're imposing on other people. And I think it's sad. [00:22:00] Trans rights are human rights. Trans rights are human rights. I hope you're all having a wonderful women's suffrage celebration. Trans women are also women. [00:22:30] Yeah, trans women are women. Trans women are women. Trans rights are human rights. We're out and we're proud. And we're thick and loud. [00:23:00] I think of human rights. Trans rights are human rights. Trans rights are human rights. Human rights, trans rights are human rights, Human rights, Trans rights are human rights. Trans rights are human rights. Oh, uh, so I am a lesbian, and I'm here to support, uh, all my friends [00:23:30] who are Trans and are all women Because trans women are women. When you saw the other march come through just just before What? What did you think? I think they're either uneducated or they're scared of what they don't know. And that's why they think, um that Trans women shouldn't be included. Um, I'm here because I am a queer health, health care worker, and [00:24:00] trans rights and supporting trans people is in line with all healthcare values and all human rights values. What do you think of the other protest? I think they are here out of a place of ignorance and then out of a place of fear. I think they're scared of their rights being taken away, and they don't understand that there are a certain amount of rights Just because other people are able to do things, it doesn't restrict them whatsoever. and in fact, not a single [00:24:30] person here wants to take anything away from them. And actually, what we identify as and what we do has very, very little impact on them, if any. And I think their family members would be incredibly disappointed for them being here, as I'm sure every single one of them has queer family members. Um, so I'm here today because we need to fight for trans rights, and I think it's important to remember that Trans people aren't trying to push anyone out or [00:25:00] like, remove rights from anyone. They're just asking to be listened to and heard and included in conversations. And I think that's really important. Yeah, I'm here to show up and show support for the trans community, Um, and their absolute human right to be included within issues like feminism, um, and just included in general. Yeah, yeah, it's just as simple as Trans women are women. So we had to show up and support them and show that they're not fighting against feminism. We're all part of the same struggle, and that's [00:25:30] what we're working for today. So when the other march um, went past us just before what What was the feeling you got from them? Um Well, first of all, I was surprised by how old a lot of them were. And I think, like they're coming from a place of They've been fighting for women's rights for so long, but I think the conversation needs to be broader than just what it was in the past. And I feel like there was a lot of positivity coming from our side and quite a lot of negativity from [00:26:00] their side. So, yeah. Um, yeah, it's definitely really sad to see, um, because I feel like we're all fighting for the same thing. Like we're fighting to end the patriarchy. Um, and just seeing them just misdirecting the fight against trans people who are some of the most, you know, um, what's the word? Marginalised. Thank you. Um, people in our community, it's just it's really sad to see that they're misdirecting feminism [00:26:30] in this way. Yeah, I guess you feel kind of We were talking about it. We feel a bit sorry for them because we feel like they legitimately don't understand what they're actually pushing for, like reading their signs and things. It was quite like an incoherent sort of message. And I feel like if someone actually sat them down and they're willing to listen and explain, they would be like, Oh, I definitely support transform. And I support transform being part of the community. So it's Yeah, disappointing. Yeah, it just seemed really confused. Like it was built upon misinformation and misunderstanding things [00:27:00] and people just kind of backing up that misunderstanding for any coherent thought going on. I think we don't Trans people don't want to hurt other people. And it's not about taking away rights that have been so like fought for all of this time. Um, it's just yeah, we're wanting to be listened to and heard in conversations. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, like for, you know, women or women, the fight against [00:27:30] patriarchy and being a community of women can be really important. And to see them try and exclude women from that, um, it can be so, so hurtful because you're just kicking people out of a community that should be supportive and caring. Yeah, I'm so proud of all the young people that have come out here today despite all of this stuff, because I think when you're young and trans. That is so scary seeing this group of people who maybe they don't understand how they're hurting you. But they are hurting you. And they're making the world [00:28:00] feel like a safe space because they are trying to keep you out of the space. That should be there for you. And so, yeah, I'm really proud of everyone that has still not here today to say that that's not actually the message that we want going out. Yeah, I think there's a growing awareness in the younger communities of, like, how toxic turf behaviour is and how trans people need to be supported. And I think it is just that kind of older generation that aren't quite catching up. Uh, the event, Um, I just, [00:28:30] uh, sort of involved in a few, Uh uh. Basically, I know some of the QED organisers through the International Socialist Organisation. So, um, basically here to support support their work and, um, recognising trans rights and, um which are fundamentally, I believe human rights, you know, workers rights, they all they all intersect. And, uh, uh, you know, have the same, um, threads [00:29:00] of oppression running through them. So So uh, personally for you. Why was it important to be here? Uh, you know, I think, uh, just you gotta you gotta stick up for people. You gotta Everyone's in it together in this world. We just gotta If I see you know, people need help, I want to help them. And this is one of those times where I think I can, uh, make up some numbers and and be a part of it. Yeah. Um, so I'm Aria. And [00:29:30] like, I've been an ally for as long as I can remember, and part of part of the LGBT Q plus community myself, And it's really important to me because my brother is Trans and I don't know what I what I or he would do if he didn't have access to the health care that he needs for and and like, an affirmative and happy and healthy life. Yeah, I'm Elise, and I am also a part of the community, and I have had friends for as long as I can remember that are trans or non binary. [00:30:00] And I've always thought that, you know, I want my friends to be the happiest that they can be and as long as well as everyone else. Like, you know, it's really important that people get the care that they need to live a happy and fulfilling life. So just recently, we we we had the alternative March kind of march past us. Can you describe what it was like? How many How many people, the types of people there? Uh, yeah, there was about 20 of them. Um, they were all kind of dressed the same. Um, and they were holding signs [00:30:30] that they seem to be supportive towards a certain group that fit their ideals, But they weren't supportive of really anything else, and it just seemed a bit closed minded, and they were older, so that could be why. But there are also older people at our protest, so I don't know why they're so close minded yet when they walked past, I mean, how did it make you feel? [00:31:00] Um, made me feel weird because we're all acting quite friendly, and we're not shouting expletives or being rude to anybody, but, you know, they were pointing cameras at us as if they were expecting us to do something. And they were walking just quite. They weren't hostile, but it was just unfriendly. I mean mad. Yeah, they're taking up a public space with hateful words and presence, [00:31:30] and it's just, I don't know. It's really gross to me. So it just makes me feel mad. If you had an opportunity to speak to them 1 to 1, what what would be something you would say to them? Um, I'd probably ask them why. You know, like, I'd probably ask them how they can, how they can feel that feminism can be like exclusive because feminism isn't supposed to be about, like, just uplifting women. It's supposed to be about gender equality, right? [00:32:00] Rights are human rights. Human rights are human rights. If I had a chance to speak to them, I'd probably ask them again. Why? I mean, I guess with their signs, I would ask them why they think one group is allowed to have rights. But another [00:32:30] group isn't and where that line is drawn. Because, you know, if you're protesting for one group, why would you not want to protest for another group that is going through worse, if not much worse than ourselves? And I think it's just unfair that they aren't taking time to learn about other people that would benefit from, you know, being accepted [00:33:00] and being able to have the health care that they need and why they think that they should be protesting the streets without actually researching what's going on. I'm Leo, um, and it was important for me to be here today as a trans person and also as an ally to other trans people, Um, basically for Suffrage Day and the fact that a lot of people decided that they were going to exploit that for their own political gains that are not about suffrage at all. And they do this a lot. They basically take [00:33:30] a lot of women's rights, um, things, and they misappropriate them to basically be awful to trans people and particularly trans women. Where where do you think that comes from? What, what, why why are they doing that? Um, I guess part of me that's uncharitable wants to say that they're just here because they have nothing better to do with their lives. But I'm actually guessing that it's to do with the fact that they don't have a lot of control in their lives. [00:34:00] Um, and they feel like this is one of the ways that they can, I guess, exercise their own power and their own minds. Um, and they make up a little bit of a storybook villain, um, of Trans people who are just minding their own business, which is very sad. Honestly, Um, I don't feel for them because all of my sympathy goes to trans people. But, you know, I think that's probably something to do with why. So when you when you've seen them walk past a couple of times today? What what's the feeling that [00:34:30] you you take from that, um, annoyance and also mostly pity and but not necessarily in a particularly kind manner? I shouldn't have to fight for my rights to exist as I am, and it's just a bunch of women who decided to be jerks to other women on a day that is for women's rights. I'm annoyed. If you had a chance to talk one on one with [00:35:00] with somebody from the the other march, what would you say to them? I just wouldn't I don't have time for that. I have a life and friends and just better things to do. We're celebrating women's Suffrage Day woman Suffrage Day. Thank you for all of those that campaigned over the years over a century ago to get women's suffrage. But also we want to extend that universal suffrage would [00:35:30] include prisoners. No, let's hear it for universal suffrage that Oh, thank you for joining us in the Chinese rights are human rights. Thank you, everyone, for coming out on this fairly blustery, slightly drizzly day. You're all absolutely wonderful. Wonderful people. Our plans just to stick around till about 12. [00:36:00] 30. So just not much longer. Uh, maybe if one or two other people just want to speak just to wrap things up, Um, that would be awesome, because you've heard lots from me. Um, and then 12. 30 We'll all just go together for for our own safety as well. Just make sure that you know you don't Don't go individually anywhere that we all just kinda head away in groups. OK? Hey, everyone. So I think I think this is the, um the wrap up speech. So thank you all again for coming. [00:36:30] Even those of you who joined by accident. It's been really cool to see you all. And thanks for coming out and supporting trains rights. Let's get a final round of that, shall we? Trans rights are human rights. Trans woman or woman? Trans men are men. Non binary people are non-binary. Thank you. We're queer. Endurance. Defiance. You can find us on Facebook [00:37:00] and nothing else right now, I think. But stay tuned. I know.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089922
TITLE: Gender Matters in Writing
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VOICES: Chris Szekely; Emma Barnes; Jackson Nieuwland; Jiaqiao Liu; Paul Diamond; Sam Orchard
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Alexander Turnbull Library; Aotearoa New Zealand; COVID-19 (coronavirus); COVID-19 denial; COVID-19 lockdown; Chris Szekely; Christchurch; Emma Barnes; Food Court Books; Jackson Nieuwland; Jiaqiao Liu; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); National Library of New Zealand; New Zealand Society of Authors (NZSA Wellington); Paul Diamond; Sam Orchard; Taiwhanga Kauhau (National Library); Te Reo Māori; Tiriti o Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi; Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); Wellington; comics; gender expression; gender identity; genderqueer; lesbian; non-binary; poetry; spoken word poetry; takatāpui; trans; transgender; tuakiri ā-ira; whakaputa ira; writing; youth
DATE: 16 August 2021
YEAR: 2021
LOCATION: Taiwhanga Kauhau (National Library), 70 Molesworth Street, Thorndon, Wellington
CONTEXT: Sam Orchard talks to writers Emma Barnes, Jackson Nieuwland and Jiaqiao Liu about the complexities and beauty of writing about gender in Aotearoa today. Writing about identity and embodiment can be a complicated and vulnerable task, but each of these three writers find unique ways to share themselves with their readers, breaking binaries and building new spaces to be themselves. The recording begins with an introduction by Paul Diamond and ends with an expression of thanks from Chris Szekely, Chief Librarian of the Alexander Turnbull Library.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, [00:00:30] [00:01:00] Sam. Roger. Roger. Uh, Emma J Jackson killed everyone. Um, you know, I'm [00:01:30] a bit like Chris as well. I work here at the National Library. The Alexander Turnbull Library. I used to be a trustee of Hans and I'm a member of, and I'm a member of the society of Authors. So is that a ella or a trifecta? Um, just to summarise what I've just said. I've just been acknowledging loss those who passed on as we do in, um, and bringing us back to the realm of us. The living acknowledging the people who've made, um, tonight help the Society of Authors, the Turnbull Library and our panel. Um, And if all of those who's organised this event and made [00:02:00] it possible and acknowledging the coup agenda matters in writing complexities and beauty of writing about gender, So, yeah, it was a new, um I had to really think and look up my little online Maori dictionary, so yeah, gender expression, gender identity. So it's great to see that these terms are available. Um, to conceptualise and Maori. The discussion that we're having tonight. So it's brilliant and exciting to have Emma Jackson, Jay and Sam here to speak to us tonight. And I'm really looking forward [00:02:30] to hearing their so over to you, my colleague Sam, to introduce us. Introduce this further, Kilda. I just, [00:03:00] um My name's Sam. I'm not a poet. Um, and I feel quite intimidated doing this. Um I was asked to put together a panel of, um, writers who write about gender and embodiment, and I feel really, really lucky and overwhelmed [00:03:30] and honoured that you all said yes. Um, because I'm a big I'm a big fan. A big fan. Big fan. A big fan of you all. Yeah, something. I'm not a writer. Not too bad. I make comics. It does involve a little bit of writing. Um, but I thought I would start with an introduction of these lovely poets. Get them each to say one or two poems. Um, [00:04:00] we'll ask some questions, do some more poetry, hand it over to the lovely crowd that's turned out. I'm quite intimidated by the size of this crowd. It's incredible. It's quite a cold Wellington night as per usual. Um, So thank you so much for coming out. It's lovely to see your bright shining faces. And, um get to listen to these magnificent people. Um, so I have who is a Chinese non-binary poet who is currently doing their creative writing [00:04:30] masters. The IIML um, they write about family, queerness, longing, myth and tech, among other obsessions, and some of their work can be found in blackmail. Press Queen, The Pitch and the Out Here Anthology upcoming in October. Next, we have Jackson Newland, who is a gender queer writer, publisher and bookseller. They have the author of the award winning I Am a Human Being Poetry Book, which won best first book award for poetry [00:05:00] this year, Um, as well as as well as two other collaborative chat books with Carro de Carlo. They are co-founder of Food Court, which is an amazing independent bookshop and community space that you should all go out, check out, spend time and spend money in and visit Um, and finally, on the other end is Emma Barnes, whose poetry has been widely wide, widely published [00:05:30] and wildly published for more than a decade. In journals including Landfall, Turbine, Cordite, Best New Zealand poems, They recent Oh, Ashley Jackson was also features in the Art Here Anthology, Um, and Emma put together the co editor of the Out Here Anthology, which is coming out as well as recently releasing their first book called I am in Bed With You. So give our wonderful poets a lovely round of [00:06:00] applause And shall we go down the line? I I'm fine to be first. Yeah, Cool. Ok, Uh uh uh [00:06:30] um Hi, everybody. I'm Emma. Um, I just told you that, um, I live in Wellington, but I come from Christchurch. Um, I was raised on the banks of the which is the Avon. Um, I did a little to all the important places to all the people in, um, Wellington. Um and I think that's all I said. I've now absolutely [00:07:00] blanked on everything I said, but I also see that I was and that I was so, um, I really pat I feel very privileged by it. Um, I'm just I'm just Should we do one poem to start? Yeah, um, I'm kind of gonna, um, read you the poem where everything sort of started for me on on gender or everything came clear for me on gender. It has AC bomb in it. So if you don't want to hear the C word. I'm really sorry. I'm going [00:07:30] to read it. Um but I'm just giving you a content warning for that. Um, it's called I am a man. I'm gonna stand up. I'm sorry. I can't sit and read. Is that weird? No. OK, here she is. They save my body. I lifted my breasts into my clothing this morning. I say I'm a man for all with a man for all withers. You said the horse is loose. I capital I capital. I start these sentences in my head on the night. I have an existential [00:08:00] crisis about my gender. I'm a man because I think I am a man in this body of hips and that wet cave between my legs. You say your father is a woman and I say she makes sense. I'm a woman, but no one takes these boots seriously. There's only so far I can get in this. Men want me to be a woman. You want me to be a woman? I am the Praying Manus destroyer of worlds. And you cannot explain why you want to be devoured. Acting out woman in this woman shape is standing on the ground while [00:08:30] people fly around me. I am a bird of cheeping and plumage No one said a word about flying. Is this a telescope of longing? Am I upside down? And my brain transforms the image. It's all in the bricks It's me, the plasterer, the decorator, the twin of my twin I am the grand misogynist Behind the curtain, my cunt A billow of satin lining Or I'm just kidding myself sweetly. Where to now, [00:09:00] with this wilting self I've kept in a jar See me as a woman man shape See me as I back Flip back into myself See me as I disappear when I can't hold the ideas inside me daily I am a woman climbing Default Um [00:09:30] I'm just gonna read my poem Finally Finally I'm coming into bloom My body is opening up like a music box Trap door Wormhole wound anus Now I'm exposed to the world The dirt, the flowers, the wind, the people The fire Now the world is exposed to me The beauty, the light, the pain, [00:10:00] the fear, the fire My skin blushes Shifting through baby pink neon orange highlighter Yellow lime green baby blue My tattoos come to life, dancing across my skin like shadows and reflections whispering in my ears. Spiders spin through my hair, turning it to a tangle of fluorescent candy. Floss. My hair grows longer than limbs, then [00:10:30] falls out like friends. Hair replaced by a soft layer of fur. The fur sheds lifted away by a breeze like dandelion seeds, fur replaced by a rainbow of wild flowers. My buds are blossoming. Petals radiate from my chest. Armpits, groyne, scalp mouth. My pools are overflowing, every orifice [00:11:00] flooding its banks with sweet water soaking my skin in the lawn. I recline on the water, forms, rivers flowing away from me in all directions. My body become an island. My body become beautiful. Finally, a reflection of me. My chest cracks open like a crusty eye. A black box emerges from the hole, rising up on a pedestal [00:11:30] of beating heart flesh. Extended like a tongue. The box opens like a gift, revealing a glowing glass flower, shattering the light around it like a crystal prism. The flower grows large and heavy. Peled then quickly decays, crumbling suddenly to dust, gone in an instant. And yes, this means I am one step closer to death. [00:12:00] And guess what? I don't care. It's worth it. Hello? Um uh Or, um I am also just going to read a poem. Hello, Pillar of salt. [00:12:30] Sometimes a body goes missing and turns up something else. This is considered a legal death. But you will not find me dead. Biological markers suggest dormancy. Even as I leach water from the air grow heavy from the weight of it cells thirsting for something real with which to exchange ions again. Gas, electricity, blood bouquets. On muggy afternoons my surface [00:13:00] slicks markings appear in anticipation of rain on roads resurfaced and reworked from tiny collapses the width of my cheeks. And still there is more work to be done. Every day entire organs leap to flee the island of this body falling easy to fresh waters. Sweet, Cool. Some make it out. None. Make it back Though I stood ready to take them back. I never grow. I never shrink. [00:13:30] I have stood here since I was born in my old body. Since I was born, something in me stalled and died. See, this is what I'm working with. The rain is relentless. It knows these highways hold hostage something it once lost, but not why humans mixed salt with soil before paving it all over. I know why. Because I was human. Once you see salt X as a subsurface stabiliser. So the humans [00:14:00] who are still human can trust. They will be carried to their destinations, or at least in a direction of their choosing, without skidding and crashing and dying without knowing why I couldn't stand it. There was so much to mourn. I couldn't stand still. I couldn't keep myself from standing still. I was born this way, unable to let go of some original sorrow. Sodium chloride is available so cheaply it may never be synthesised. [00:14:30] My new body is a salt farm. It will produce enough salt to live forever. It takes what it is given and shakes it until something gives up. The ghost tosses salt instead of rice. Even so, I am trying very hard to hold myself upright, crystalline myofibril, splintering and reforming so as not to lay my crumbling body down on Earth. I never meant to hurt. [00:15:00] Thank you, I. When I was coming up with questions, I came up with a whole lot of puns about gender and matter. But now I feel shy about saying them because they're silly. Um, but I thought I'd start off with an easy Well, maybe not easy, but an open question of like does does gender matter in your writings and [00:15:30] and if so, how? It's just an easy one to start with. OK, I'll start. Yes, that's the short answer. I mean, I think that for me, that poem that I read, um, helped me figure out how I felt about my gender like that one was, I don't know if you've ever had long hair and you've swallowed it in the wind and how you have to kind of pull it out of your throat. That's what writing that poem felt like for me. It was actually an incredibly [00:16:00] painful process, and if I hadn't written that poem, I might not have gotten here. And I think for me, writing is this process of understanding and working out who I am through kind of experimenting and just following an idea and seeing where it goes and gender matters in every single bit of my day. So, like, I can't imagine how writing would be separate to that so That's kind of my answer. Um, I'll try in with another. Yes. [00:16:30] Um, it it certainly matters in my writing. And I think it mattered in my writing a long while before I realised that it did. Um, when I started writing this book, um, I didn't even know that, like, the concepts of, like, non-binary gender or anything existed. Um, but reading it it's very much about that. Um, [00:17:00] yeah. I also kind of figured my gender out through writing was through writing a different book, which doesn't exist as a book. But, um, maybe one day, Um, yeah. And also like the way that I found out about those, like concepts of like, gender was through reading other people's poetry like trans writers, and that was, like, hugely important to me. So I kind of feel like [00:17:30] it's a bit of a duty to, like, put that into my own writing because it might. Other people might find that for themselves. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the hardest. Yeah, I guess I Yeah, like poems being that sort of space where you can sort of play with stuff and like, put things on, take them off. See how things fit whether it's like language or like aesthetic parents or whatever it was like [00:18:00] having that was really important before I knew. Like what, like screwing with gender, was I could screw with language, um, the language of gender And yeah, I think just like knowing that other people are out there like writing this sort of thing is something I think I need to like. Remind myself in the kind of flipped way that, like people, read what I write and like, I might think it's like old and like it is. But, like, you [00:18:30] know, like, people might vibe with it and like like, it's important to them in terms of like, you know, So yeah, just yeah, yeah, I think, especially when I relate to what you're saying about. I use comics in the way of that. Some quite often. I don't know what I'm feeling until I start drawing and then I realise it. You know it's there staring back at me. Um, and that can feel quite vulnerable, sharing that with other people. But also [00:19:00] it's kind of empowering when someone says, Hey, I see myself in that, too. Um, I have AAA, Trans friend, who when they were coming out, They, um, were googling like trans men in New Zealand. And Sam was one of the first people who came up, and that was very important for them. So it it is true. Yeah. [00:19:30] I just think of all the comics I've done about, like dressing up in onesies and answering the door and stupid things. Um, I feel like I have a question around. How do you go about putting words to things that language doesn't always account for? Like, I feel like you remember what you were saying was that everything you do in your day is gendered like it. [00:20:00] I feel like we live in a world that forces us into it all kind of wrenching us into one or the other binary gender. Um, and there's not a lot of space in the middle of of the rest of the genders that exist. So how do you How do you put words to that? Are you asking me to eat me? Um, like, [00:20:30] I think that part of what's fun for me about poetry is trying to explain things that don't otherwise exist. And I think there is, like, feelings like my feelings don't exist to anybody else. What I'm trying to do is write a feeling into words that then reverberates in someone else and causes a feeling. And I think that, um I don't know what can we call that, like, alchemy or something like transformation? I don't know that I'm I'm into describing what doesn't exist. [00:21:00] And I think that's maybe how I got here is because I I came out as a lesbian when I was 18 because in the nineties you were gay or you were straight and that was kind of it. Um, I didn't know a trans woman at that time, Um, she was a Trans woman who was a lesbian, and I kind of knew that I wasn't Trans. I didn't want to be a man exactly. But I also didn't not not want to be a man. So it was like a really confusing grey area. And there were no real words for it at the time for me. So I just kind of like carried on. [00:21:30] And it is really through language and exposure to other people playing with language that I've gotten closer to understanding myself and then, like Jackson's right, the bread crumbs of like other identities or ways of being that come through writing Like, um, I read this great book called My Lesbian Husband by someone called Barry Jean Borich. I think off the top of my head, if I remembering that right? And I read that when I was like, 21. And it's talking about her lesbian [00:22:00] husband, Lane, who is this figure that I deeply identified with and that, you know, that was one bread crumb. So I feel like I've just waffled at you now for a while, but I think that that's the That's the challenge of poetry. That's the fun, the excitement and the more I explain myself through words, the more I get to be myself because I don't feel like I have to day to day, I get misunderstood all over the show, you know, like sometimes I get called misses something which is like, you know, But I can also exist in a space where I don't have [00:22:30] to explain as well, and I think that that's also the thing that you have to do. Um, I have a poem that speaks to this question a lot. I think? Can I read it? OK, it's the last poem in my book. Um and yeah, I think I was based. A lot of it was me trying to kind of answer this question. And to be honest, I don't feel exactly the same as I did when I wrote it, but I think it's still, [00:23:00] um, valuable to the discussion. Um, it goes like this. I am a Well, I'm not quite sure yet. Sometimes these things take a long time to figure out, Especially when you've been told your whole life that you're one thing. And then one day you realise that you're not. It takes a while to come to terms with you. Don't trust it. At first, you're just going through a phase. [00:23:30] You really believed you were that one thing, and maybe you even were for a while. But you're not anymore. It's hard to figure out what you are, especially when you've never had to do it before. And at first it's easier to define what you're not. I'm not a boy. I'm not a man. I'm not a professional basketball player. I am not a confident public speaker. You could list these all day, but it takes too long to solve [00:24:00] by elimination. Sometimes it's easier to start by listing qualities. I'm introverted. I'm empathetic. I'm clumsy. I'm cute. These help you get to know yourself better, but you still yearn for a single word that defines you. So you try a few on a gender gender fluid, trans. None of them seem to fit. Some sit more comfortably than others. Gender queer feels better than non [00:24:30] binary, but in the end they're all either too tight around the waist or the wrong colour altogether. Eventually, you figure out that there isn't a word for what you are because you are the only one of you so far. So you start adapting things that already exist, combining them to create something more specific. Something that sticks. I am an angel without wings. I am a devil without horns. I am a Gorgan without hair. I am a siren [00:25:00] without a voice. I'm a maze without walls. I am a cage without bars. I am a Christian without a mark. I am a triangle with four sides. I'm a Cyclops with three eyes. I'm a unicorn with nine horns. I am a leopard with stripes. I'm a zebra with spots. I am a mermaid with a cock. I am Jackson. I am a human being. Whatever that means. I am alive. [00:25:30] Um, and like the part that I doesn't like sit like with me the way it did when I wrote it is like some of those words do feel very comfortable now and affirming I, I really do identify as gender queer and as non-binary. Um and [00:26:00] I don't know why they didn't feel right at first. Maybe it was just like because I hadn't fully come to terms with things. But at this point, like those words mean a lot to me and, like, really help me, like, feel myself and using them to describe myself. Um, but yeah, like writing that list of things that I am and this whole book is the list of things that I am [00:26:30] was like It's like it's a way of fucking with language like these two have said, and that is a really useful way of finding your way to something that hasn't been defined yet, I think Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah. I just love how, like expensive you can sort of make like when you're playing with what you could be on the page [00:27:00] like language allows you to. I feel like I'm repeating myself just to, like, say, I'm this I'm like this ridiculous thing and that's fine and like, that's all of me. Or maybe not all that I know or have, like, shown you or whatever. And just like having that like, like space like that kind of interiority versus like when you're going through the day and like, people look at you and like, you know, they're not like getting it. Like, I think that that was so important. [00:27:30] Um, what was the actual question? It doesn't matter. Yeah, Um, yeah, I think going back to like like terms like Non-binary and Gender Queer. I find them. I found them so like, useful as Touchstones in the beginning. And it's like a kind of shared lexicon. But like at the same time, like each person's experience of like, non binary is so different and so wild and like amazing [00:28:00] that it's just like, you know, like I'm just like yeah, yeah, yeah, it's funny how those those labels, I feel like can be touch points for freedom and for finding yourself, but they can also be cages and, like you think about lesbian as a as a word. That kind of speaks to my experience and gender in a way that I can't explain to people [00:28:30] as someone who looks like this. It was so hard for me to let go of lesbian, though, like I think, because I got it when I was 18 that I still sometimes feel like I'm a lesbian. But I'm really not like and I don't want to take up that space I know, and I like I also neither do I. But like there's some little secret colonel in my heart that's going to always be a little lesbian who listened to an de Franco and what platform boots and was [00:29:00] really earnestly in love with feminism as well, you know, like I was alone to Tracy Chap, all of that form of experiences. Yeah, yeah, and I think about one of the things that helped me realise who I was as well was who I'm not that I kept on getting called Butch, and I was like, Well, this is not what are you seeing? I'm very thin like, and it's [00:29:30] a really strange thing when you get feedback from society that is really different to how you feel inside. So taking up space to say actually, this is where I am is really important. I noticed with all your poems the space that they take up. I asked Emma if I could call their poems when I'm meant to. But Emma has quite thick poems. Fat joke, [00:30:00] fat joke like they're big and meat. You talk about meat quite a lot in your poems, actually. But this their their big wads of poems in a really lovely way. OK, good. Yeah. Um and there's a poem called Cave in Your Book That is a cave and I and I and the way that you play with space going down the page. Jay, is that [00:30:30] I? I don't know if I think about poems in a kind of visual way, because I'm coming at it through a comics lens. But is that part of the the language of co of of comics, of poems and taking up space? Yeah, yeah, I. I think being able to kind of play with space on a page is quite important to me. Um, whether [00:31:00] It's like like the little bits of, like, silence or just like, space that you let people kind of sit with And also just like reminding myself to put those in because I was like, I bang it off first draught and it was just like, Oh, and like, I need to space it out to like, because it needs that kind of slowness sometimes, um, and just kind of figure out when, like, specific tweaks that I like. What shape the pomp needs to be is a [00:31:30] Yeah, yeah, I think like the visual elements of poetry and writing in general have always been like a really significant part of it to me. I. I know I haven't really thought about it through a queer or like gender lens too much. Mostly I just think like this looks cool. I like just if I'm flipping through like a book of poetry and I see something that's, like, wild [00:32:00] across the page, I'm like, Oh, hell, yeah. I'm gonna like this. Um and I don't know, Maybe that's something about, like, you know, playing with, like, do you not think that's a queer thing? I mean, I think it probably is, but I haven't figured out yet. Why it is. Um, yeah, Can you tell me why? No, but I think there's something about rule breaking right that [00:32:30] is queer, and I think a lot of the time as queer people, but also particularly as as non binary or trans people, we're asked. We're told we're taking up too much space all the time. We're told we have too much gender all the time or too, too much sexuality we like. Since people have a lot way more gender, I think just so much gender. It's just everywhere. Like I think when you feel a need to have a non, uh, one of those like parties for gender [00:33:00] reveals, like that's a lot of gender, that to throw it out onto a tiny little baby whereas like, socially, where it's actually it gets kind of put on on and non binary people that that we're the ones who have that. Yeah, I mean, I think also I live in a fat body and my body is always too sexual or extremely un sexual, or it's taking up too much room or it's looking the wrong way, [00:33:30] or it's like I got to a point. And like I for me, fitness and queerness are extremely intertwined. Um, it both and I have, but probably a longer history with fat politics, maybe even than with queer politics. And they are, you know, they are complimentary, and they work well together. And so for me, like, I don't know that my thick poems are, um, necessarily like, taking up space. They're also about confusion and about like, I [00:34:00] I'm a bit of a jerk to the reader, but I also think of it as an invitation to the reader, like through the copy edit process for my book. The copy editor was like, Are you sure you wouldn't like some punctuation? What about some question marks or some speech, max? Or just even like a full stop in other places? And I was like, No, this is the way it is. Thank you. Um, thank you very much to my copy editor. Who? I don't know. Oh, great. Well, great job, because I, I felt like I was so irritating because I was just like, [00:34:30] No, this is just what I'm doing. And for me, that's about I really want the reader to pick their own path and to decide what it means for them. You know, blah, blah post modernism. And the author is dead, et cetera. But also, I think experiencing the confusion of life, like, I've spent so much of my life being confused about so many things. Um and so I think for me, rather than the shape being important, the shape is a device to give you fewer clues. Really? [00:35:00] Ultimately, you know? Yeah. 20. Sorry, I'm not apologising. Actually, I take that back. I said sorry at the end. I'm unapologetic about my poems. Yeah, I. I was just gonna thank my copy editor again for Did great work. Yeah. Can you tell? I felt really bad through it, so I did. Um, we talked a little bit about crumbs before about the the people who've left crumbs [00:35:30] for us. Who are some people who have Have you've seen yourself reflected in those in their writing or in their their art to help you gather the crumbs of your own identities? Um, I'll start it. Yeah, um, when you mentioned, like like the kind of kind of books you read when you're like 18. 21 I think I was undergrad. I when I first encountered Stone Butch Blues. And [00:36:00] like, that one scene where they're just, like, in the field and they don't have to like, they can just be in the world. Yeah, really vibe with that. Um, but in terms of, like poetry, I've been going back through for any choice of science a lot, because, like, she maybe, yeah, she she kind of talks about a lot of the same things that I've been thinking about this year. Working on my, like, foo stuff around like [00:36:30] like the cyborg, um, And, like, language and technology and intelligibility and desire is like someone like someone who is perceived as like, like, a little Asian girl, basically And like, fit as, um, yeah, a lot of folks don't know where they're going right now, so but very thankful to Yeah, very thankful to the crumbs. Um, for me. [00:37:00] Um, I there was a lot of people who kind of felt like my contemporaries. I think that was quite important to me. Like there was people that I knew, um, and I could, like relate to them because, like, oh, they're actually like the same age as me. And they're right there on the Internet writing poems as well. Um, there's people like, um, Joshua Jennifer Espinoza. Um, never Angeline North. [00:37:30] Um, Jamie Mortara, Jay Dodd. These were people who, like when I started writing, I was just, like, posting random shit online, and they were doing the same thing. And I was like, Wow, look at this. And like, like even seeing some of them, like, go through like, um, transitioning and stuff and being like, because that was, like, the first introduction to any of that to me, and that was really, um, huge. But then it's also, like not just being introduced to those concepts, but, like every day when I'm reading, [00:38:00] Like when I read Emma's book, Um, I was like, Well, this I see myself here. And like when I read isa work, Um, yeah, it's just very affirming. And like, there's like, also just like constant revelations, right? Like it's not like, Oh, yeah, I'm gender queer. Moving on. It's like, wow, every day. [00:38:30] I think, um, I was a bit more old school, maybe, um, Chris and I talked about this in the introduction to out here, but we both used to look up like tags in the library for, like, lesbian and stuff. Um, so and I also did a lit degree, and in my lip degree, I was obsessed with lesbians as well, So I would because I think also at that at that time, which was sort of late nineties, it didn't feel to me that it was obvious who queer writers were like [00:39:00] has written a great essay about that. And like for me, I I felt like it was a process also of excavation, of excavating other queer scholars and their work to excavate writers. So people like HD who was a contemporary of pound or like, um, Jackie Kay and, um, Carolyn Duffy, Um, you know, super famous, a couple MB, you know, queer writers, Um, then also, like, [00:39:30] I guess for me it was a lot of songwriters as well, you know, like I was in love with Tori Amos from the age of 11, um, no lie and, um, a de Franco and Tracy Chapman. And like all of the the you know, I feel weird saying its name out loud now. But Michigan's women's festival, you know, like a lot of that sort of American kind of content because it didn't feel like there was a lot in New Zealand. But there was, uh there was an artist that I saw open for an dean [00:40:00] in, like, 2000 in Wellington. If there was anybody here, can they remember who the owner was? Can't remember her name anyway. So, like, I just felt like I had to really dig and excavate, and I couldn't find people like me and that that's only a thing that's happened to me in kind of like the last 10 years. Like I still remember the first time I ever saw Jack perform, which was a poetry slam. I think, um and I just remember sitting in the front room and being like, What is happening? This is amazing, OK, you [00:40:30] know, like that recognition. And like, I don't think either of us knew at that point that we felt similar in our gender identity. But for me there was, like, a real spark of recognition. So, like, there's also that kind of thing That happens too, But yeah. Poetry. Yes, Sam. Um why poetry? What is it about the medium that speaks to you? that is [00:41:00] the the writing that you do. I feel like I get quite asked this quite often as a comic artist. Like why? Why? Comics And I'd be interested for poets. Because it's not something that I can do. I've tried. It's bad. But what is it? That's that poetry. What is it about poetry that feels that you're drawn to? Well, I know that you are quite adamant that comics are a queer form, right, [00:41:30] Sam? Yes. I feel the same way about poetry. Um, but hm. I think this is related to the thing of me liking things that go all over the page and look weird. Um, So in saying that I still haven't figured it out entirely, but, um, because I have I've written, I do writing in other forms as well. Um, the book that I was mentioning earlier that, like, actually [00:42:00] made me figure out that I'm gender queer. It was a novel. Wow. Um, but but the novel is a fucking weird novel, and in some ways, I was thinking of it more like poetry when I was writing it. Um, I don't know. Poetry is fun. It's a lot more space for play like we've been talking about Fucking with language and stuff. Um, some novels do [00:42:30] that. Most people don't read them, though. Not that people read that much poetry either. I don't know where I'm going. Anyone want to save I? I can go if you want. Um, why poetry? I think that I started writing [00:43:00] poetry very seriously when I was 15 and I didn't actually have a Y at that point. Other than feelings are great to turn into poems like just turn a feeling into a poem, it's ah, so good. And also, I have to honestly let you know that even though you think you're crap at poetry, you actually don't know I am invested, like 20 years in poetry. Before I thought I was any good. And like, I'm not saying you should do that because I honestly couldn't recommend I don't think that anybody become a poet. Maybe I'm not sure [00:43:30] on that. I don't know, but, um, I still don't feel like I'm good at it. Yeah, right. Well, maybe. Well, I see I enjoy it. So now I don't really care if other people don't. I'm like, I just do my thing and that's it. And you like it. You like it? You don't. OK, cool. Do you want me to take you to the library? There's so many other poets. But, um, it for a long time it was such a dorky, embarrassing thing that I did people I'd say I'm a writer and people would be like, What did you write? And I'd be like poetry and they'd be like, Well, but in the last few [00:44:00] years, I've noticed a real to be Tell me I'm cool and I'm like, You may not say that to me. I write poetry. It is truly embarrassing. It's deeply embarrassing. And they're all like, No, it's great. And I'm like, OK, cool. I'm fine. So I have to shift in my perception now. And I think honestly, these days, the why is just I stopped for six months. I got so upset with writing that I stopped for six months, and all it did was it blocked me up emotionally and psychically and like, had a really bad time, and it took me two years to learn to write again. So like, [00:44:30] and now it's just habit. It's just part of who I am. I write because I don't know anything else to do. Really? Yeah. Um, I also started writing, like around high school that it's that's something about like being that age and having a lot of feelings and not knowing what to do with them. Um and so I started writing, you know, high school poetry. Um and I think, yeah, poetry is kind of the one kind of thing that I've stuck [00:45:00] with in terms of writing. Like I remember I, like, wrote no, tried to write novels when I was a kid because, you know, kids do that, but it's just maybe it's like my attention span or like my, but like being able to kind of sit and just, like, bang out upon and be like, OK, cool. That's now. Whatever was happening is now over here is just like, that's the way my head works now, Um and yeah, I Still, if I meet someone I like, there's [00:45:30] like, a 50 50 chance. I'll tell them I'm a writer and like another 50 50 chance, I'll tell them I'm a poet. Um, so it's yeah, because I'm doing the MA year right now, so it's been wild to be in this environment where everyone's, like, just so excited about writing where I came from. Like like a science honours where no one was No one cared. Um, so yeah, it's been kind of like having to shift my head. Yeah. Ah, I feel like Wellington poets in particular are like the coolest [00:46:00] people on Earth. We don't feel that. No white hair comic. I've tried. I'm really bad at it. Can you share us? So can we. Can you share some more of your poems with us? This is called Dear Alto. Do you remember everything that happens to you? Disconnect. [00:46:30] To stay still is to die is to say I am OK with dying. Your sister is touring the world trilling her artificial heart out. Do you remember your duets in the dark? She's always been the artsy one, your tone deaf bagpipe drone stalling engine undercurrent to her breathy reverb from the other side of the room. No sense of rhythm, either. Now she is living spotlight to spotlight. Does she remember what happens to her when she's asleep [00:47:00] in transit, folded in on herself in the dark, bubble wrapped and colour coded senses dormant but dreaming. You have lived only two places. Your short life, the lab and the emptying auditorium. From the fourth floor, I watched the world waver on without us. You were born short sighted. So I'll tell you, it was a steady routine. Doom. Five hours of clouds, two hours of real time and fiction spread once a day The Apollo [00:47:30] moon landing Oh, altar. We were the envy of the tides even if we were all constructs there. And finally the strata of the earth Clay and iron and plastic And then a return to the clouds. Alter the clouds here, sweep past like suited strangers on the subway. And I can't keep up. And in between ozone concentrations, surface temperatures, migration patterns of Pacific bluefin tuna, organic LED, S for no one to read Across the whole, the international [00:48:00] space station sits hollow. Our spatial temporal sense is scattered to deep space. We slip standing. Do you remember the last time you slept? Do you remember what happened while you were out? Your neighbour who was also your sister, who was kind enough to sleep beside you? She misses her child, who is also your sister the man who made you made another in his image, assigned himself Jim and I at 44 fake flesh shrink wrapped around a steel skeleton organ. He is insatiable [00:48:30] in every pretty face. He sees a research grant and a trophy. There he goes again as the eldest. We deserve some peace and quiet. When Castor was killed in battle, Pollock was inconsolable. Your distant cousins are designed to massacre. So stay here, I beg you, until I can see you again, meet you. Mind to mind your pendulums firing in strange glass rhythms It's a given. The great black box of your body runs on the same clockwork as music boxes. NASA is [00:49:00] developing a Clockwork Rover because Venus is hosting a cook up and considers every latecomer an ingredient or tribute. Alter. Have you ever felt the ocean? Yesterday I chased the sun across the sand. You see the hills in the city stretch light thin like sugar across along the fourth dimension. Molecular chains unravelling dip, dying the ocean where jellyfish are born only to sow a beach with invisible rot. They don't green grey bloat only vanish. [00:49:30] When I do alter, will you stay with me. Sorry. I know you keep your palms silicon smooth to spite fate. Immortality is a game way through. On the sea floor alone. Jelly load states at infinitum. Their cousins did not die wanting obsolete or psychic death. This is the choice, Alter. I want everyone to remember me. I want you to pick my latest iteration out of a crowd before my systems update into oblivion. [00:50:00] Before we met, a reporter bestowed you a title. Artificial life form admits. Yes, you are alive in this world In some form or another. It doesn't matter. Faux fur yields the same to a bloodless caress. Maybe I feel too much. Maybe I feel too much for you. Alter more and more. What I know is this the curve of your cheeks could be mine. Though your spine is well oiled, your lips are hypoxic. I am late writing you because I did not [00:50:30] want to look at myself. And I still don't know what you are trying to tell me In the base Beat of blood counting down before I vaulted the velvet rope to hold you tight before security hijacked my brain. And I fought to want you. Um just to clarify. That's a poem addressed to an android I saw in a museum context. [00:51:00] Um, I don't know if any of you know the goose game. I felt a bit twee writing about a goose game, but also, if you've ever played the goose game Oh, my God, It's so good. Um, so this is you are a horrible goose in the common land inside the city. Running through this place, I think of streamers catching the wind. As I find myself holding on to something that doesn't exist any longer in service, there is no longer safety, only the quiet of something very wrong. I thought [00:51:30] it was love, like I think so many things I love. And it is only now that I know that love is a conversation and I have just been talking to myself alone in an empty room, a pattern repeated with smaller and smaller variations until the spiralling bone at its centre is revealed when it has ended for you, the time seems longer, shorter, wasted, better inevitable, the deep emptiness of being let down by your own self. In your own time. I [00:52:00] sleep through layers of consciousness, dreaming into past Selves and past lives and the certainty of nothing And no one. We end each day face up to the sky and it does nothing for us Until we are prepared to become the horrible goose in our own lives. I will be the most joyous goose of my own heart and hound many of you in the village. Put the rake in the lake, Honk your heart out Unfitted by who I was before set free by stealing your bell for myself. [00:52:30] I am a version of you from the future. Of course you don't recognise me. You grow into something you cannot yet comprehend. I am a version of you from the future. I can prove it used. Used to lie in the bath and masturbate to the idea of Hazel hugging you. The light tastes different here. [00:53:00] I forgot. Then I forgot. I forgot I'm a version of you from the future. I'm running late. Where did you put the keys? I'm a version of you from the future. You will become close with David. But please don't move to Auckland with him. He will leave you all alone. It will become the worst year of your life thus far. I am a version of you from the future. I'm just here to warn you that in a few moments [00:53:30] dozens of future versions of you will begin appearing. I'm a version of you. Is it raining? I love the rain. I've missed it so much. Remember when we used to set up the tent in the backyard and fill it with cushions and blankets and snacks and read our book while listening to the raindrops on the fabric roof? The black box in your chest will never fully go away. But it will shrink so small for so long [00:54:00] that you will forget it exists for years at a time. I am a version of you from the future. Teach yourself to garden. Don't give up on drawing. You're doing so well. I'm so proud of you. I'm a version of you from the future. On your first day in the new house, you will take all your pills. You know it's not enough to kill you. You just need to escape for a while. I need blood. You're [00:54:30] the only viable donor left. I am a version of you from the future. Remember how excited. You were the first time you kicked the ball at soccer practise. Your best basketball memory won't be representing your country. It will be playing with your friends. I'm a version of you from the future. Don't let them prescribe fluoxetine. Tell them to put you straight on. The I am a version of you from the future. Make [00:55:00] sure none of us find your keys. You don't want to get to where they're trying to go. I'm a version of you from the future. You will meet someone named Carolyn on the Internet. You will fall in love. She will move to New Zealand to be with you. The government will refuse to give her a long term visa. This will lead to years of instability, stress and international travel. Eventually, expensively, she will gain residence. Don't let the obstacles [00:55:30] deter you. It's more than worth it. Our body begins to shake at first, just the legs. But it spreads through the rest of our frame. We can tense the muscles in one area and cause that part to stop. But the vibration just travels to a different section. I'm a version of you from the future. You get a job as a librarian. Occasionally you are given the opportunity to test new technology the library has [00:56:00] acquired, like virtual reality headsets and 3D printers. One day you get the chance to try out a time machine. You travel back in time to speak to your past self not sure exactly what you're trying to achieve by doing this or what the repercussions might be. You confess that you have spent your entire adult life trying not to feel that you yearn for deep human connection but have built a protective shell around yourself, [00:56:30] which you don't know how to escape from. You. Avoid voicing your opinion because you don't want to disagree with anyone. You're incapable of handling conflict, confrontation or responsibility. You can't risk the people in your life abandoning you. You need everyone to love you. Your past self looks at you with the they pull you into a tight hug. You begin to sob, releasing years of tears that had been held inside [00:57:00] due to the conditioning you received from a patriarchal society and the overload of testosterone pumping through your body. You sink into your own embrace. The two versions of you merge into one and you begin again, Given the chance to do it all over but differently this time with an open heart like quadruple bypass surgery, the risk of death is high. But what other choice do you have? [00:57:30] I am a version of you from the future. This is just the beginning. With our last few minutes left, we're going to open up to Q and a, um there'll be some microphone runners, so just pop up your hand. If you would like to ask a question I was just thinking about, um uh, we're [00:58:00] in a, um how does that influence? Um, your identity. I was just thinking in, like, I'm on Twitter a lot. And the UK is suffering from a bit of, you know, regressive. You know, problematic values at the moment that we are pushing against back against a bit. And I'm wondering if, um, what values we have in a that might sort of help us, um, with our identities and and stuff and push back against that kind of colonialism. [00:58:30] I hope that's a good question. I don't know. It's a good question. Thank you. It's a big question. I started talking Damn it. Now I feel like I got damn OK. Um, I think it's really complex because I think a lot of those UK attitudes get transported over here right nonetheless, because those people on Twitter tweet over here and do all sorts of things over here. So I don't know if there's anything particular in A that is will [00:59:00] save us from that kind of thinking. Like, I think we have this idea that we're isolated down the bottom of the Earth, but we're not, um, and I feel also particularly aware of the way that, um as we've already been responsible for perpetrating that kind of stuff, even here in New Zealand, like, I've been very lucky to listen to a bunch of people talk about how expensive I guess oceanic sexualities and genders were for lack of better terms for me. Um, [00:59:30] so I feel I don't know. It's weird being, um, in two positions at once as a coloniser, and there's a someone who's also in the position of, you know, I have people who are trans exclusionary, radical feminists who live on my street and put stickers up so like, half of my work as I walk through a valley every day is tearing down stickers. And I've specifically bought a really big art pen. It's like a 15 millimetre nib acrylic paint pen for [01:00:00] graffiti crossing over, which works dual purpose for covid denial and, um, anti um, you know, thank you. Um What What am I trying to say? You know? You know what I mean? Just Yeah. Cross stuff out. You You. So you don't know what I'm saying about the fact that there are some people in New Zealand who aren't very comfortable with the gender that I have. [01:00:30] Ok, alright. Just checking. I mean, I think one of the things that we can do is just be who we are and who we are is wonderful and beautiful and shiny and complicated and confused. And that's just part of it as well. Of the the complexity and beauty of human diversity, I guess, um, [01:01:00] I think we actually we have time. Yeah, that's what I was about to say. I think we've come to the come to the end. Um, thank you so much for sharing yourselves and your poems and your thoughts with us. And thank you all for coming out as well. It's lovely to see your faces and, um, to sharing this. Thank you, Sam. Yes, thank you. [01:01:30] That was the clumsiest way of expressing to Sam and the sign that, um I'm obliged by the NZ to say to offer a formal vote of thanks to our panel. Unfortunately, uh, the chair of the Wellington region of the New Zealand Society of Author Shana Middle is unwell this evening. So was I able to join us? However, on her behalf, may I offer [01:02:00] a few words? A 27th of August is National Poetry Day. Two days prior to that on the evening of Wednesday, the 25th of August, the Wellington branch of the NZS A is hosting an open mic session at the books Do get along on Saturday. This coming Saturday. We have something rather special happening here at the National Library. Um, which Sam Orchard has had a major hand [01:02:30] in, uh, organising. And that is this year's comic fest offered in partnership between the National Library and Wellington um, city libraries. So there's another bit of fun to be had just a few days away. In May of this year, I was at the Auckland Writers Festival and was struck by an O'Brien's observation of how fortunate we are to be face to face and elbow to elbow in the midst [01:03:00] of a global pandemic. On the heels of a lockdown cancellation just one year previously, the Auckland event was a sellout. We have a great audience here this evening on a cold Wellington night. What is it about what is arguably a solitary experience of writing that compels us to seek each other out for a shared literary experience? Emma [01:03:30] Jackson, J and Sam Thank you for bringing us together this evening to lag ants. Thank you for this evening's refreshments. But beyond that, thank you for being in the vanguard of championing the notion that the words of gay, lesbian, transgender intersex matter. They do matter, and they have always mattered. And it is a great privilege [01:04:00] for us here at the National Library to offer a safe and respected home for those words. So thank you. Friends, Please join me in thanking our panel.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089920
TITLE: Laurel Hubbard press conference
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VOICES: Laurel Hubbard
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; 2021 Summer Olympic Games (Tokyo); Japan; Laurel Hubbard; Olympic Games; Tokyo; sport; weight lifting
DATE: 3 August 2021
YEAR: 2021
LOCATION: Tokyo, Tokyo, Japan
CONTEXT: Excerpts from Laurel Hubbard's press conference the day after she competed at the Tokyo Olympics.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Yeah, it's quite a bit different to, uh, um, the weight lifting terms in which athletes like myself spend most of our lives. So I think I'll just, uh, yeah, just soak it all in and try to remember as much of moments like this as I can because, uh, um, really, that's what the Olympics is all about, isn't it? It's a series of quite extraordinary moments. And, um, although I haven't really achieved the results that, um, I and others had hoped for, um, I'll [00:00:30] be able to leave with a pocket full of memories and perhaps remember some of those extraordinary moments and, uh um, yeah, I think that will be as rewarding as any Olympic medal could be. And, uh, as Diana mentioned, it might be a good idea just to talk generally. And, uh, one of the things I'd really like to do is just address the question of what went wrong. And I really want to say I don't know. Um, the campaign the lead up was absolutely [00:01:00] perfect. I had incredible support in the back room from my coach and warm up crew. The training, the preparation, the taper, the facilities here, everything was just on point and perfect. And so, uh, really, I suppose then it just, you know, comes down to the fickle nature of sport. You put yourself out there, you test yourself and and you find out one way or the other because, uh, as all weightlifters know, it's, uh it's all very well being strong in your own time. But, uh, when you're on that Olympic [00:01:30] platform and you've got one minute to do your thing, um, that's, uh it's that's really a taste like no other. But, um, please don't to make it sound like, um no. Sorry, I. I hope it really doesn't sound like, um, you know, I, um uh I'm I'm too shattered because stepping on that Olympic platform really is It's indescribable. Um, it's it's energising, um, and and [00:02:00] in a way, which I just didn't expect. You know, um, I just felt so just connected with that moment, and and I think again, this is one of those moments that, uh, I'll be able to take away with me and and and really, I think treasure. And, um, uh I know that, uh, I've already thanked all of the people involved, but um, it be is repeating. Um, weight [00:02:30] lifting is not an individual sport. In fact, I think none of what we consider individual sports here at the Olympics are individual sports. There's a a team of people that stretches back all the way from our first beginnings in any sport to our final end points. And I don't just mean coaches and support staff, but it's everyone you know, the people that offer you a kind word at a point when things aren't going so well, the people that offer you support and encouragement, [00:03:00] they're all part of that team. And I just like to say, if, uh if people are watching this from home, thank you all for being part of my Olympic team. I am so grateful. You have no idea. Thank you. I'm not going to pretend that this is the easiest point in my sporting career. Um, but it is what it is, you know, the You put yourself out there and you take what comes and [00:03:30] I think it's I'm I'm so grateful that the conversation about mental health is being had because I think it's so easy for for people to, I suppose, forget that athletes are human, that we have all of the, you know, we suffer from the the pressure, the expectation, Uh, and we feel the disappointment when things don't go according to plan. And, [00:04:00] uh, I hope that conversation continues because, uh, it's an important one to have. The thing that's always, um, I suppose motivated me is is the sport itself. Uh, I have found tremendous amounts of joy in weight lifting. Um, I found joy in the training. I found joy and just being with like-minded people. And that's really what's propelled me. Because Olympic Games is as [00:04:30] fabulous as they are are the end point. They are. They aren't the everyday reality of, you know, training, preparing and putting yourself through the grind. And I suppose the motivation I have comes from, you know, finding reward in that in the training, in the in the daily life of being an athlete and and really, I suppose you know, that's what that's what brought me this far. That's what's propelled me. And, um, [00:05:00] while there's obviously some pressure, um, in these circumstances, um, that's just that's never been part of the equation for me. I've just been motivated by the bar and just yeah, doing what I do. One of the great things about weight lifting is that, um it's a sport that's founded in routine. We perform the same movements thousands [00:05:30] upon thousands of times in training, and when you step on the platform, you sort of take confidence. And I suppose, some degree of comfort from knowing that you've been there before. And while the Olympic stage is, uh, it's obviously different in some ways from other competitions terms of atmosphere and and and excitement. Uh, there's enough there that's similar that you can draw upon it. And, uh, as I stood there on the platform, I knew exactly what I had to do. And, uh um, [00:06:00] sadly, it didn't quite go to plan. Uh, really. I haven't come here to change the world. I've I've come here because sport is part of me, and it's it's really part of what I want to do. And everything else is peripheral to that. Um, I've only ever wanted to be treated in the way that other athletes are treated. Um, I haven't [00:06:30] set out to look for special accommodation, special treatment or or or um, anything else really? Um And so while I'm aware that someone has to be the first, um, uh, that's not, uh, been what's propelled me to come here and compete. I don't really want to give advice, because it's [00:07:00] everyone's situation is so different and so complicated and and really, it's a conversation. It's It's a decision that has to be made individually with regard to individual circumstance. Um, so all I can say is that, um uh, rather than advice, I can give encouragement that there are pathways out there and that if people are motivated, um, they can pursue them and they can, [00:07:30] I think, um, compete, Uh, just as any other athlete does. And, um, if that's the one good thing that comes out of this, then, um, yeah, I'd be happy with that. I think that there is a conversation to be had. I mean, I'm grateful that the IOC. Has opened the door. I'm sure that the current rules and regulations will not be the final endpoint. [00:08:00] Um, as it is, I think the IOC. Has tried to put in place regulations that apply to all sports. And, uh, I suspect that over time there will be more refinement discussion, and those rules will change. Um, I don't know what the future will look like for, um, sort of rules participation. It's certainly not my area of expertise. [00:08:30] Um, I'm really just grateful that, um, the IOC. Was able to take a leadership position on this issue and give me the opportunity to compete. I've tried really hard not to tell people what to think. Um, because, uh, really II I trust people to, you know, consider the issue and form their own opinions. Um, the one thing I I would say, though, is that, um, some people, I think take [00:09:00] emotion as the starting point for how they feel about the situation. And I think that no amount of facts will probably change the opinions of people that start from their feelings and and and base their opinions upon what they feel. Uh, and so to those people, I say, just open your minds, open your hearts, and consider that, uh, you know, um, [00:09:30] that, um perhaps there are a broader perspective that, uh, that that is out there. I. I think that all weightlifters have a shared sort of, um, what's the word that, uh, a sense of camaraderie and belonging because we all know how much work is required to qualify and prepare for events like this. And as such, um, [00:10:00] I think there's a shared understanding and and that was really evident last night. Of course, people aren't outwardly expressive because it is game day, and, you know, you need to focus on the task at hand. But, um, I think, um, II I certainly didn't feel like there was any unkindness or unpleasantness in the room. And, uh, I I'm grateful for I suppose that, uh um for for [00:10:30] For for for that experience, all sport has rules, and I haven't seen the video video footage. But I have faith that the referees that looked at that lift were following the rules as they're written, and their interpretation is correct. And while it's true there are challenge cards and weightlifting that can be played, you know, I think that my team made absolutely the right decision. Um, strategically, snatch [00:11:00] has always been my stronger of the two lifts. And so it was probably better to keep that challenge card for which there is only one, for the clean and jerk and So I have, uh, every faith and confidence that my coach has made the right decision. Uh, when I was asked, like last night, I, uh uh I think I told someone that I'm looking forward to my career as a pub quiz question or a trivial pursuit card. Um, and that might sound slightly facetious, but there is a kernel of [00:11:30] truth in that, um, I've never been involved in sport because I'm interested in publicity or profile. Uh, and so, uh, if it means that I now begin to descend into graceful obscurity then, um, I'm OK with that. If there's one thing I hope I can give to them, it's encouragement not just for sports, but for all spheres of life. I think the world is changing, and there are opportunities for people to be out in the world [00:12:00] and and do things just as any other person would do. And so if there's one thing I'd like to pass on, it's this, um, Life is difficult. There are disappointments. I know. I certainly have some today, as so do we all. But, uh, if you just keep pressing on, it does get better.

IRN: 3451
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089921
TITLE: Parliament: second reading of the Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Bill
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VOICES: Barbara Kuriger; David Seymour; Deborah Russell; Elizabeth Kerekere; Glen Bennett; Jacqui Dean; Jan Tinetti; Jenny Salesa; Louise Upston; Nicola Grigg; Rachel Boyack; Simon O'Connor; Tangi Utikere; Tāmati Coffey; Willow-Jean Prime
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Barbara Kuriger; Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Act 2021; David Seymour; Deborah Russell; Elizabeth Kerekere; Glen Bennett; Jacqui Dean; Jan Tinetti; Jenny Salesa; Louise Upston; Member of Parliament; Nicola Grigg; Parliament TV; Rachel Boyack; Simon O'Connor; Tangi Utikere; Tāmati Coffey; Willow-Jean Prime; birth certificate; self identification
DATE: 11 August 2021
YEAR: 2021
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I call on government order of the day. Number two. I call on the Honourable Jan. I present a legislative statement on the births, deaths, marriages and relationships the clerk needs to read the item of business match. I'm sorry, your honourable um, the Clark needs to announce the bill 1st. 1st deaths, marriages and relationships Registration bill Second reading. Madam Speaker [00:00:30] I present a legislative statement on the births, deaths, marriages and relationships Registration bill to the House. That legislative statement is published under authority of the House and can be found on the Parliament website. Madam Speaker. I move that the births, deaths, marriages and relationships Registration bill be now read a second time, Madam Speaker. This bill was subject to robust debate at the Governance and Administration Select Committee in 2018. [00:01:00] The Select Committee reported back with an enhanced version of the bill with amendments that did a number of things. The government supports the amendments presented by the Select Committee in 2018, and as the minister for internal affairs, I'm pleased to be progressing the bill. I have identified several improvements to these amendments that I believe will better support the needs of transgender non-binary and intersex communities and individuals of all ages. These [00:01:30] amendments are contained in draught supplementary order paper number 59 that was released yesterday. We want to ensure that these provisions adequately support the people they purport to serve. I'm therefore now not only resuming progress on this bill by carrying forward the select committee's 2018 recommendations, but I'm also signalling my intent before the House to invite the Governance and Administration Committee to use its inquiry powers to consider supplementary order paper [00:02:00] number 59. Following the second reading, I will be requesting a full public submission process. Be part of this inquiry to ensure New Zealanders can have their say. I'll come back to speak to that part of the bill shortly, but firstly, I'd like to outline for the House the substantive parts of the bill in regards to the administration and upgrading of our birth deaths and marriages register Madam Speaker. Fundamentally, this bill makes important changes to New Zealand's register of births, deaths and marriages, [00:02:30] a national record that collates information from our first to our last breath and a lot of very important life events in between protecting the integrity of this record is critical. New Zealanders rightly have a growing expectation that all government services are accessible through the online and digital platforms they use. The bill underpins how we create change, use and access identity documents in a way that reflects and supports the ever-changing profile of our communities. [00:03:00] Madam Speaker The bill establishes a legislative framework that will facilitate the development of new access channels for all births, deaths and marriages information and allow greater electronic access to information. We've We've taken the utmost care to ensure that we are also mitigating the misuse of information through robust criteria and evidence of identity that can be verified online. These are all important changes, Madam Speaker. But one of the changes that came [00:03:30] back from Select committee in 2018 has been subject to a fair amount of public debate, and that is around the gender self identification provisions. The process to amend registered sex has not changed since 1995 and yet as a country we have Mr Speak Madam Speaker. This government believes that all New Zealanders, regardless of sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression or sex characteristics, have the right to safety dignity and to live [00:04:00] free from discrimination. Yet our current law requires transgender and intersex New Zealanders to undergo a complex, intimidating and often inaccessible process based on the provision of medical evidence to amend the sex on their birth certificate. A survey in 2019 found that 83% of this community did not have the correct gender represented on their birth certificate. Today we are proud to be the most rainbow parliament in the world. [00:04:30] And yet for many of our rainbow community basic life events where a birth certificate is often used as an, such as enrolling a child at school or opening a new bank account, become a moment of stress, forced outing and discrimination. And as Minister for internal affairs, I think it's unacceptable for us to continue using a government issued birth certificate that causes pain and discrimination for some New Zealanders. Under this bill, transgender non-binary [00:05:00] and intersex New Zealanders will no longer require proof of medical treatment or to show a court that they physically conform to the deeply held and lived knowledge of who they know themselves to be. I'd like to take a moment to put some facts on the record as there has been some confusing information about what this bill will and won't do. So. To be clear, you can already change Madam Speaker. The gender on a birth certificate, the change [00:05:30] of your gender on the passport or a licence already can happen. The bill does not propose changes to the way we collect or record sex information at birth. What we are proposing here and what I am asking the select committee to use their inquiry powers to look at is removing what are frankly, unnecessary barriers for a small but important group of New Zealanders to identify the agenda on their birth certificate. Madam Speaker, This isn't something that has been [00:06:00] dreamed up overnight. This has been part of a substantial policy process to do what this government knows is the right thing to do for our transgender, intersex and non-binary communities. I don't believe that these changes will impact, impinge or threaten the rights of any other New Zealanders, but it will increase the rights of some vulnerable members of our community who deserve the dignity and right to be able to self identify the agenda on their birth certificate without financial, medical or legal barriers. [00:06:30] We are also not alone in making these changes. Since 2012, 15 other countries have adopted a SELF-IDENTITY process as well as Australian states of Tasmania and Victoria. There has been no substantial evidence found of any serious or unmanageable consequences of introducing a self identification process. However, if any unintended consequences do arise, we have built in a statutory review of the self identification [00:07:00] provisions five years after the commencement of this bill. As per the 2018 and select committee's recommendations, the SOP also has an 18 month transition period, which is slightly longer than what I had initially hoped. But we do think it's necessary to ensure this legislation provides the framework intended and the technical infrastructure is in place and ready to give effect to the changes in a way that works for all involved. Madam Speaker. Another aspect of the [00:07:30] self identification provisions that we have given careful consideration of is the rights of transgender, intersect and non-binary Children. This government believes that Children are aware of their gender from a young age, but the act does not reflect this, the bill also introduces two age categories with different requirements that focus on consent and reflect the cognitive development of older adolescents. The draught supplementary order paper number 59 released recommends that young people aged [00:08:00] 16 or 17 years can apply on their own behalf and can choose to either ACCO accompany this with either consent from a guardian or a letter of support from a suitably qualified third party for under sixteens. They still require their guardian to apply on their behalf. This approach is consistent with other legislation. In New Zealand, for example, 16 is the age at which you can apply for a learner, driver's licence and consent to general medical procedures. Before I conclude, I want [00:08:30] to briefly outline other policy changes the SOP makes to improve on the foundations provided by the Select committee. A key amendment is to allow for multiple changes of a sex marker in recognition that gender can be fluid and can develop over the course of a lifetime. The government also pro proposes setting and regulations a wider change of sex markers than those outlined in the bill. Again, this is to ensure that regulation can be adjusted as gender theory and terminology evolves [00:09:00] and allows for a culturally inclusive marker. Madam Speaker. Another area of further consideration is access to self identification for people whose births are not on the New Zealand birth register. This is a complicated area given New Zealand's legislation has no jurisdiction over the off offshore regulations. Therefore, New Zealand's SELF-IDENTITY provisions cannot be used to change the birth records of another country. Then the government recognises that this causes concern [00:09:30] for some New Zealanders and residents who were born overseas and my officials are currently working to address this issue as the bill progresses, Madam Speaker, In order to progress this important work following this debate, I will write to the chair of the Governance and Administration Committee and request that it conducts an inquiry into the draught supplementary order paper to give effect to the proposals that I have outlined today. I will also request that the committee call for public submissions. [00:10:00] It is my intention to progress the bill to the Committee of the whole House stage in three months time as the House would benefit from having the Select Committee's report available for debate prior to the committee's stage. I will also pre present another supplementary order paper unrelated to Self-identity at the Committee of the Whole House stage that will include minor and technical amendments. Madam Speaker The bill and proposed amendments are consistent with this government's [00:10:30] focus on ensuring better health and social outcomes for all New Zealanders and Madam Speaker. I am extremely proud to commend this bill to the House. The question is that the motion be agreed to Speaker Nick Li, Madam Speaker I rise as the National Party's spokesperson for women to take a call on the births, deaths, marriages and relationships registration bill which National is pleased to support tonight. Can I start [00:11:00] by acknowledging the Trans Community of New Zealand, who we welcome we embrace and I commit now that so long as I am a member of this house, I will work to advance their rights and protections. And I say that to every single woman in New Zealand, irrespective of the sex marker on their birth certificate. This bill has had a complicated passage through the House so far. It was originally introduced four years ago to reenact [00:11:30] and update the 1995 legislation. The bill, as introduced included provisions around digital access to information and responded to the review of burial and cremation law by the Law commission. The house was unanimous in the first reading and its contents were well canvassed by the select committee. So why are we here four years later? For the second reading debate is because of a wholesale repeal of current law requiring people to get a family [00:12:00] court declaration to change the sex recorded on their birth certificate. That has been the law in New Zealand for 25 years. And as crown law has observed, the fast paced social recognition of a diversity of genders and self identification has outstripped the legal framework to accommodate it. After the Select Committee received a number of submissions about the limitations of the existing process and without any further public consultation, [00:12:30] it decided to replace it with a new administrative process based on self ID. But it got messy. In February 2019, the then Minister of Internal Affairs Tracy Martin announced the bill would be deferred to deal with problems caused by that select committee process. She said at the time that the changes have been made without adequate public consultation and that this had created a fundamental legal issue. Six months later, she announced some interim measures [00:13:00] to make things easier, like waiving fees for applications, and also announced the establishment of a working group to provide advice on how to further reduce barriers. In April this year, Minister Etti announced more changes to improve the current regime following that working group report. So that brings us up to today where we are debating the bill's second reading before a draught. SOP is referred to the Select Committee for Public Submission and Consultation. It's frankly been an odd process. [00:13:30] For whatever the reason, the government has decided to have a second reading and refer the draught SOP to the committee instead of the bill itself. Now I sit on the committee that will consider it and would like to remind the government that in its 2017 minority report, National set out four concerns about the proposed changes and they were that the consequences of proceeding with the reforms before amendments can be made to corrections regulations. [00:14:00] The broad scope of the definition of health professional that lack of defined criteria or tests determining a change for under eighteens would be in their best interests and that there'd be no defined test to determine if the consequences of an application are truly understood by an eligible adult. Because of the process adopted, though, none of these issues has been able to be addressed in the text of the bill that we're debating tonight. So I thank the minister for [00:14:30] circulating her draught SOP and legislative statement yesterday, so I'm not flying totally blind. The proposed amendments will address some, but not all, of our concerns. For example, the definition of health professional has disappeared altogether and been replaced by suitably qualified third party, which we're now told will be defined post facto and regulation. Most people in this House are aware [00:15:00] that definitions of terms in legislation should not be left for regulation unless there's very good reason to do so. And I'm not convinced that such a reasons here we should be dealing with as many issues as possible up front, not kicking them down the road. I'm also concerned about the 18 month transition period that the ministers mentioned. My view is that we are better if we can agree the detail and get the work done immediately [00:15:30] rather than leave them to be worked out on a for another year and a half. Bearing in mind, this bill has already been before the house for almost four years. But we in the Select committee can have a look at these issues in detail, along with other legal uncertainties detailed in that crown law advice. Critically, Madam Speaker, New Zealanders will now be able to have their say. I think we're all aware that the insertion of the new provisions at the end [00:16:00] of the last select committee process has caused much angst to all the women groups and organisations who have taken the time to write to me and to speak to me. Thank you. You've educated me. I've listened to your views, your concerns, your fears and now you get a chance to make them public. Madam Speaker I'm a former journalist who's made every effort to approach this bill as objectively and as impartially as I possibly could. [00:16:30] I've not listened to hyperbole, and I've not been swayed by hysteria. What I have done is met with every single group and person who has asked me. I've read every single email that has been sent to me I've read websites, some like the parents of transgender and gender diverse Children, and I've conscientiously listened to every single view offered to me. I've heard loud and clear the concern from some groups that allowing people [00:17:00] to change the sex on their birth certificate, according with how they self ID, will lead to an increase of male bodied people in changing rooms or bathrooms. So, in front of this house, I give my insurance that while I hold a seat on the Governance and Administration Select Committee, I'll ensure your voice is heard. For that. I might be called a turf, a trans exclusionary, radical feminist. But I'd like to assure this house that I am neither exclusionary nor radical. [00:17:30] But some of the vitriol that I have seen online has been nothing short of vile. There is no place in New Zealand for the abuse that I've seen coming from some quarters, and it needs to stop because nobody wins, least of all those who are publishing it. As members of this house, we are first and foremost legislators. We have a duty to examine all the consequences of changes that we make to the statute book. Whatever the policy area [00:18:00] in many areas, including this one, we must do it with the utmost sensitivity and without ever forgetting that we are making decisions that will affect the daily lives of New Zealanders. There can be no denying gender transition is a long, hard road. It can be full of confusion, trepidation, heartbreak but also joy. It takes heart and it takes guts. And to those of you on that journey, [00:18:30] may I offer my deepest respect, respect for your sincerity, your determination and your belief and your sense of self. I have a strong belief that both the government and this parliament have duties to New Zealanders to make progressive humanitarian updates to law, especially when the law makes the lives of some New Zealanders harder than it does for others. We should reform, and we should liberalise where we can. [00:19:00] And as a member of a party that emerged out of a great reform and liberal era some 85 years ago, I'm proud to be continuing that movement. It is imperative the public, the experts, the clinicians and trans New Zealanders can all have the opportunity to have a say and feed into this legislation organisations, groups and individuals who have concerns about the impact of sex. Self ID have not had the opportunity to contribute [00:19:30] and be a part of the democratic process. It is now time for their voice to be heard. Madam Speaker. It has been a messy process, but I look forward to the select committee consideration of the proposed changes and to seeing if we in this house can produce a high quality piece of legislation for all women. And I commend this bill to the house I called. Thank you, [00:20:00] Madam Speaker and I rise in support of the second reading, uh, of this bill. Um, it is a a bill that has been on the order paper for quite some time. Uh, it is historical, uh, in nature, I guess. And I just want to acknowledge the Minister, uh, the Honourable Jan for effectively pushing the go button again to kickstart um, the process. Um, I have to say that I'm pleased to learn this evening that the opposition will be supporting, uh, the progress of this legislation. Madam [00:20:30] Speaker, there are many things in life that, uh, the integrity of which is so important, uh, births, deaths marriages. Civil unions are for examples, Uh, that's covered by that level of importance. And they're important for those who are subject to the issue of the certificate themselves or who are subject to the issue, uh, of the licence. But they're also important to those further down the track for family research, historical research and genealogical, uh, purposes as well. [00:21:00] But what's also important is that the accessibility of those documents, apart from being accurate, are also accessible in a way in which is meeting the desires of modern times. And that is exactly what this Bill does do. Many people will know, for example, that when it comes to marriage licences, uh, the old approach was you would have to trot down to the District Court, uh, complete the paperwork, and then the celebrant would be required to lodge that with the District court. That is not the case anymore. People can apply [00:21:30] for those licences online, and a celebrant simply needs to take a snap, uh, or photo of the documentation and and email it through. So times have very much changed. I want to thank the Minister for, uh, her tabling of of draught SOP number 59 Because what that does is it seeks to address discrimination, pain hurt, that is experienced and felt by members in our community. Because the current law [00:22:00] actually prevents them from truly in an administrative sense, uh, truly identifying themselves as who they wish to be in a noncomplex way. The current law actually does not support the validation of identity for many who face other barriers around being identified as who they truly wish to be. And so supplementary order paper Number 59 effectively delivers on that Madam Speaker. I want to indicate that as [00:22:30] a member or as the deputy chair of the Governance Administration Select Committee, I am looking forward to the select committee availing availing itself of its inquiry powers, uh, to consider the draught SOP. I know that as a committee that is collegial, it works really hard, and I look forward to the public submissions and that process being open to allow members of our community to submit, uh, and we look forward to hearing from them. But I do expect to hear from members of our rainbow community. I expect [00:23:00] to hear from members of our Maori Pacifica new migrant community and also other communities in New Zealand. And I'm delighted that the second reading has come and that this draught supplementary order, uh, paper number 59 and the minister's name will be referred to the select committee. I commend this to the house. Thank you, Madam Speaker. It's a pleasure to rise and, uh, speak on the second reading of the birth deaths, marriages and relationships Registration Bill [00:23:30] tonight, um, and to, uh, support taking this bill back to select committee. So I rise. Uh, not only as a member of the national party Caucus, but also, uh, as chair of the governance and ads and administration, uh, committee. And I would like to, uh, Echo. The words of Mr is that, uh, we are a good, collegial committee, and we will make our best endeavours around, Uh, you know, doing our best, uh, with our inquiry powers on this piece of legislation. [00:24:00] Uh, what I would also like to do is because this, uh, bill underwent its first reading such a long time ago, Uh, in December 2017. Uh, and there has been expressed tonight that the time has come to bring it to the house Um, But the Select Select Committee at that stage, um, made substantial amendments, including an allowance for individuals to change the sex on their birth certificate via an administration [00:24:30] process based on SELF-IDENTITY. And the change occurred after public submissions had closed and following the presentation of a petition with 23 signatories. Now, what I would like to say about that is I really want to, uh, commend Minister Jan uh for coming in and being very, uh, thorough with the legislation in which she [00:25:00] puts in front of the house and recognising the fact that those changes, uh, had been made. Uh, the bill had previously been withdrawn by the then Minister Tracey Martin in February 2019, uh, noting the significant changes and Minister Jan has come in and recognised that those changes were rather too significant to just plough through with the bill. As we often see with pieces of legislation, uh, [00:25:30] sometimes pride in getting things getting passed gets on the road. Uh, this minister, uh, I believe, is a good minister who is intent on making sure that the legislation that we pass, uh, ends up in a very, uh, fit for purpose state So the National Party minority report, Uh, that went with the first uh, session of this through the governance and administration. Uh, committee back in 2018, um, report included, uh, members [00:26:00] are broadly supportive of the bill as introduced into the house in 2017, along with the technical and clarifying amendments recommended by officials. While the National Party members do not wish to stand in the way of reform of self identification of nominated sex on birth certificates, serious concerns remain with respect to some aspects of the recommendations. And the specific aspects of those were proceeding [00:26:30] with reform before amendments to the corrections regulations, 2005 are determined. The broad scope of the definition of health professional, no defined criteria and or test to be applied to determine that a change to nominated sets for under 18 year olds is in the individual's best interest. No defined test to evidence that the consequence of an application are truly understood for an eligible [00:27:00] adult. And so those were our concerns, and they weren't just the concerns of the national caucus. Uh, obviously, uh, Minister had become aware of a range of concerns, and I welcome her supplementary order. Paper number 59. Obviously, there's been some work done here because, um, you know, there there's some changes in here that, uh, we will definitely be looking at as a committee. Uh, and I want to give the commitment [00:27:30] that the Governance and Administration Committee look forward to using our inquiry powers and being objective and thorough. And listen, listening to the feedback that comes through, uh, to make sure that this bill is fit for purpose so that we can bring back to the House in a state where we can stand and say that we have listened to the concerns of the public, Uh, we have taken the submissions in, [00:28:00] and we have fully considered them and turned the bill around and bring it back to the house so that we can be comfortable that the legislation has had a fair hearing from the public. Because at the end of the day, when legislation hasn't had a fair hearing from the public, uh, it doesn't always turn out the way that is expected. And, uh, again, I commend the minister for taking this into account. So with that, uh, madam chair, uh, I recommend [00:28:30] and commend the second reading of this bill. Thank you, Madam Speaker. It is a pleasure to take a call on the births, deaths, marriages and relationships registration bill. And I want to thank minister for her leadership on this bill and the former members of the Governance and Administration Select Committee and officials for their work. Madam Speaker. While this bill has been in the public eye for a number of months due to the amendments surrounding self identification on birth [00:29:00] certificates, the bill also makes changes to how New Zealand operates the births, deaths and marriages register. Put simply, the bill makes changes to the register to allow greater electronic access to information while also mitigating the misuse of information through robust criteria and evidence of identity that can be verified online. This will ensure the right balance is struck between individual privacy and access to personal information for New Zealanders. Madam Speaker. Since this bill [00:29:30] was first introduced and considered by the Select Committee, the committee following submissions, reported back to the House with suggested changes that would remove unnecessary barriers for people to self identify the agenda on their birth certificate. Under our current law, transgender and intersex. New Zealanders have to undergo a complex and inaccessible process based on medical evidence to amend the sex on their birth certificate. This process excludes people who are unable [00:30:00] or unwilling to undertake medical treatment as part of their transition. This means that many people who are transgender do not have the correct gender represented on their birth certificate. The bill will allow people to change the sex on their birth certificate by moving to a self identification process. Madam Speaker Some of the criticism pointed at this bill suggests that the current process is working fine and doesn't need to change. However, I note that New Zealanders [00:30:30] can already currently self identify the agenda on their driver's licence or passport. Madam Speaker. It has been unfortunate and distressing that some groups have sought to demonise trans people by claiming that men will change the sex on their birth certificate so that they can access women's spaces such as prisons, changing rooms and women's refuges. Madam Speaker Before entering parliament, I was a board member at the Nelson Women's and Children's Refuge. It is not [00:31:00] the policy of refuge to require a birth certificate to access the life saving services of refuge. Our policy is inclusive of diversity. The Nelson women's Refuge, diverse needs policy states, and I'll read it. The refuge understands that gender identity can be non-binary and is open to providing services to transgender gender, queer intersex or people who choose to live with a more fluid gender identity. Furthermore, [00:31:30] it states, the refuge respects the right for clients to choose not to disclose their sexual identity. For SO-CALLED, women's advocacy or rights groups to suggest that the work of women's refuge will be put at risk and that women will be unsafe because of this bill is outrageous. It is wrong, and it is disgraceful. As a woman who has campaigned and worked for women's refuges, I'm offended that these people supposed to speak for me. They do not. Likewise, [00:32:00] Madam Speaker, it would be most unusual to ask a woman to produce a birth certificate in order to enter a public toilet or a changing room. I have never been asked to produce a birth certificate to enter a woman's space, and it's disgraceful to suggest that this bill would make women's spaces unsafe for women. Another area of further consideration that the government is looking into is access to self identification for people who were born overseas. This is a difficult task, and it's [00:32:30] a situation that causes distress for people, including one of my own constituents. Madam Speaker. Our young members of our rainbow community can be subject to discrimination as they go up as they go about their daily lives, at school, at work, at church and in the community. For transgender New Zealanders, this discrimination can be even tougher. In Nelson, over 100 people, many of them young, protested against this campaign of misinformation. I want to acknowledge the work of Q youth, pride, [00:33:00] Nelson and all their allies for their work and pushing back on the damaging and hurtful misinformation put into the public domain. I'm incredibly proud of them, and I want them to know that I have their back as a member of the Governance and Administration Select Committee that will be considering this bill, I look forward to hearing from our diverse communities about how we can continue to make a a safer and more inclusive country. I am very proud tonight, Madam Speaker to commend this bill to the house. [00:33:30] Same this Do you wish to wish to call Doctor Elizabeth. Uh, it is with great pleasure that after generations of systemic discrimination and decades of community activism, the Green Party is proudly here today to maintain our long state of policy that trans intersex and non-binary people should [00:34:00] be able to self-identity the gender on their birth certificate. Uh, so that all New Zealanders can have documents of identity that reflect who they are. Minister for bringing this bill into the House after it has been stalled for so long. We acknowledge there are many other aspects to this bill, but we are focusing on legal gender recognition. Tonight, August 2021 will go down in the history books as one of the most momentous [00:34:30] months for Rainbow Communities. Because only last week the Conversion Practises bill passed its first reading and Laurel Hubbard competed as the first openly Trans woman at the Olympics. Who knows how well Laurel could have performed if the entire world wasn't watching her so closely with so many of them judging her not just for being there, but for her very existence. Greetings to all of you in the gallery tonight, all [00:35:00] our youth leaders, all of our community leaders, uh, and a particular shout out to Mary Mitchell, whose leadership for intersex people has taught us all and as a mentor to me, the marriages and relationship Regis Registration Bill has arrived here today without the fanfare that accompanied the conversion practises bill. It is, however, no less significant. I offer a that [00:35:30] got us to this point. It is by no means means the full extent of organising in our communities or even in this house. As with many of the issues facing people with diverse genders, sexualities and sex characteristics, the discrimination against us can be easily traced back to colonisation and the way that early colonists, colonists and missionaries pathologize and criminalised us. But any person who did not fit the construct of a real man, a real woman and people who should be in [00:36:00] heterosexual, non monogamous, no monogamous relationships. Our people rejected and subverted it back then. And we've continued to do so ever since fast forward to this century. In 2004, the first openly trans MP in the world, the legendary Georgina buyers had her member's bill drawn from the biscuit tin to specify gender identity in the Human Rights Act. The acting solicitor general at the time, however, concluded that Trans people were already [00:36:30] included in the sex section of the act, so she withdrew. It withdrew it. The Human Rights Commission has maintained since then and even before then that that is the correct position. However, gender expression is not included. After extensive consultation in 2017, the Human Rights Commission produced to be Who I am report of the inquiry into discrimination experienced by transgender people. It identified the lack of protection for trans people whose documents of identity [00:37:00] did not match the actual gender identity or expression. Unfortunately, though, many of us cited it, uh, the recommendations continued, uh, contained within. We left to languish until that is in 2012. As a direct result, the Department of Internal Affairs amended their passport policy, allowing holders to select FM, or X options for their sex through a statutory declaration process with no requirement for medical evidence [00:37:30] in 2013, The New Zealand Transport Authority, you know that Radical department, uh, followed suit with options of male, female and indeterminate, so contrary to the ominous predictions and fearmongering of anti trans lobbyists. No women's rights have been eroded since then in changing rooms, bathrooms or anywhere else. What has happened is that trans intersex and non-binary people have gained some dignity in their lives. [00:38:00] Also in 2013, Trans activists and allies wrote the first U PR to the United Nations, which raised this issue. Shout out to Joey McDonald and Jack Burn and all the other activists who fed into the work at that time around that time, my colleague and longtime Rainbow leader in this house, the fabulous but humble Jen Logie uh, ran a consultation with the trans community, uh, to identify the issues they wanted the Green Party to progress for them. Uh, Jan [00:38:30] met with, uh, Alison Hamlet and other trans women regarding their struggles with legal gender recognition. And Jan supported Alison to make us a petition 2015, a coalition of rainbow organisations was formed in Wellington. Uh, we took, uh, shout out to Inside Out and Bella Simpson and other groups who were part of that coalition and we took a series of recommendations to parliament. Uh, and of course, this was part of it. The Idaho coalition [00:39:00] presented again in 2016 and has maintained contact with the Cross Parliamentary Rainbow Network ever since Alison Hamblet presented her petition in 2016. It called on the minister of internal affairs to enable adults with intersex conditions and trans and other gender diverse adults to change the sex details on any official documentation. In 2017, the government administration Committee agreed and recommended that the minister [00:39:30] of internal affairs instruct officials to review Section 28 of the act with a view to amending it to approach predicated on Self-identity. I acknowledge the members of that select committee, the chair the Honourable Ruth Dyson, Matt Do, Paul Foster, Bell the Honourable, the Honourable Scott Simpson and Joan Loki, who replaced Barry Coats for the Greens. I'm told that one national member uttered the fateful words. Why would the court get to [00:40:00] decide someone's gender? Why, indeed? The honourable Ruth Dyson spoke directly to the minister at that time, who was the honourable Peter Dunn, who was very receptive and that same year the Death Marriages and Relationship Registration registration bill was first introduced to parliament. The select committee heard the evidence of the multiple, uh, activists. However, [00:40:30] as we've been told, the minister decided not to proceed in 2020. The prison report. If you are involved with Rainbow Communities, you should be very familiar. And if you have not got this, then I suggest you do the human rights issues relating to sexual orientation, gender identity and expression and sex characteristics. So, uh, and a New Zealand shout out to tame Polho, uh, from the Human Rights Commission who co uh who [00:41:00] co ran the consultations and wrote this report. It states the current process presents an obstacle to the full enjoyment of the right to legal gender recognition by restricting access and privileging those who pursue a medical transition. Such a process is inconsistent with the rights to bodily autonomy and integrity due to the requirement of modifying one's body in order to acquire a birth certificate displaying the correct sex, [00:41:30] United Nations bodies have found that if a person is forced or coerced to undergo surgeries or hormone treatment in order to obtain legal documents, this may amount to ill treatment or torture. So let's look at the legislation itself. The light reading of 100 and 18 pages we got given yesterday. This process will enable trans intersex [00:42:00] non-binary and people to move from a family court process to one where they can make a statutory declaration. It is only fair that every Trans and non-binary person and intersex person born in a should be able to change the gender marker on their birth certificate through a process that is enhancing, accessible and affordable. We think the COP is close to achieving that. We do have some issues. We'll continue [00:42:30] that conversation inside the select committee. Uh, but particularly for tonight, I want to point out that we agree that there must be pathways for New Zealand citizens who are born overseas migrants, refugees and asylum seekers to obtain certificates or other documents of identity issued by internal affairs in their self identified gender. To conclude, I look at where we've come to and I wonder what we can learn from all of this. Number one. All the hard work is worth it. [00:43:00] Every every submission, every petition, it is worth it all the collaboration, the checking of each other's work, making sure we have consistent languaging the tiredness it is worth it. Number two. We have allies who will help us and who will stick their necks out for us in the community and in this house never prejudge somebody based on their political affiliations. We do not know what is happening in their lives. We do not know what is happening in their heart. To conclude as [00:43:30] a lesbian fem ally to our trends intersects a non-binary to all of those here and those of you watching. And in honour of all of those we have lost because of that discrimination and the violence against you. I'm very proud to commend this bill to the house. Kilda, I call David Seymour. Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise on behalf of the Act party [00:44:00] in support of the births, deaths, marriages and relationships. Registration Bill, Madam Speaker. This is a piece of legislation whose original Genesis might have been described charitably as pedestrian. Uh, rearranging some of the administrative provisions and law, uh, for the registration of births, deaths, marriages and relationships may not have been, uh, the kinds of [00:44:30] political projects that brought the original minister to the house and made them want to pursue a political career. Um, needless to say as people have followed this issue, uh, will be aware, um, at select committee stage, it entered into political controversy that is best located, uh, in a long tradition of New Zealanders moving towards the light of liberty uh, a tradition [00:45:00] that has seen New Zealanders over time gradually gain additional freedoms and additional equality, uh, between different New Zealanders. And it's a very proud history. Although it has often been a fraught one, perhaps New Zealand's greatest political achievement votes for every adult New Zealander The first truly world leading [00:45:30] political achievement, uh, of our country, uh, was nonetheless controversial in its time. Difficult as that may now be to imagine, uh, as we have gone on our equality in terms of sexuality and this house, the civil unions, and then marriage Equality, uh, and dare I say it the end of Life Choice Act have each increased, uh, the freedom of New Zealanders to live as they [00:46:00] wish to live, to be who they want to be and to have autonomy over their body. Uh, it is a very proud tradition. Uh, but in each case, uh, there have also been people that have objected for a range of reasons. Uh, some valid, some not. And so has been the case with this piece of legislation. It is clear that there are many New Zealanders who [00:46:30] feel that their identity at birth does not represent, uh, their true identity. And the way they feel about that, uh, may change over time. I think it's important. And I think it's important to put on record for people who doubt that that those feelings are sincere and genuine and supported, actually, by considerable objective evidence, too. [00:47:00] Nonetheless, it is important that we also listen to a variety of voices. And this is where I would like to commend the Minister, uh, for not only the policy changes that she's proposed in this SOP, um, but the procedural dexterity that she has shown and being prepared to send the bill back to select committee to hear more voices and give [00:47:30] it further consideration. I hesitate. But I can't help myself from comparing that to some of the instances of legislation that has been rushed through the house and this and the previous term of parliament, uh, by this government. Uh, but the minister responsible for this bill, uh, Jan Etti has chosen to do the opposite. She's chosen to send the bill after a long period of consideration, [00:48:00] Having previously been to a select committee, uh, back to select committee again, Um, with a considerable number of, uh changes proposed most critical among them, uh, takes into account some of the objections that have been raised and acknowledges that there will be times when, for some legal purposes by some entities, uh, the the the the [00:48:30] sex sex identity, uh, that was given at birth may still be relevant to some people for some purposes. And I think that the minister has artfully allowed for that possibility in the way that that SOP is drafted. Um, that I think, is not only, uh, good lawmaking. Uh, it's actually good citizenry to promote a process that allows [00:49:00] all voices to be heard and all considerations to be made. And what has been a sensitive issue for people on both sides of a debate. The act party looks forward to the bill being considered on select committee. We look forward to this legislation progressing to achieve the many noble if pedestrian and perhaps perfunctory tasks, um, that it was [00:49:30] originally launched to do, uh, but also to resolve what has been one of the more controversial issues in New Zealand politics. That is the kind of progress that New Zealand has always managed to make. In the end, it's one of the things that makes me proud to be a New Zealander to live in a country where, through civil conversation, we ultimately resolve issues and manage to live together in relative [00:50:00] harmony. Uh, with that, uh, Madam Speaker, I commend the bills of this house on its second reading. Uh, I look forward to the select committee process, Um, and further committee of the whole house, uh, process where we'll be able to truly say that this piece of legislation has been given the full compliment of consideration that a piece of legislation can have from our democratic process [00:50:30] and that we will be a better and stronger country for it. A more compassionate and inclusive society for it. And that is law making at its best. I commend the minister in particular, and this bill to the house at its second reading. Thank you, Madam Speaker. I call on Tamati. Coffee. Uh, thank you, Madam Speaker. Uh, I'm gonna jump straight into it. Thank you to our minister Jan 10, for bringing this to the house. Uh, thank you to the other parties of [00:51:00] this Parliament, uh, for also putting in its support behind it. Uh, and also, thank you, of course, to the people that submitted, uh, that took that time three years ago, uh, to front up to the select committee and put their thoughts on I'm going to focus on the self identification of birth certificates because for me, uh, this is the game changer. Uh, this is going to be the thing that allows our trans community across the country to breathe a sigh of relief tonight and hopefully reverse some of the negative outcomes that we know, uh, plague our trans community tonight. Uh, we're talking business, so let me get [00:51:30] into it. Uh, first of all, I want to start with a submitter who took a cultural lens, uh, to this whole debate. They said in a traditionally Maori allowed a space for a wide range of gender definitions. It's been through a process of colonisation and cultural genocide that these were reduced to two, and that gender is biologically determined within a that same characteristic of gender fluidity is now linked to disproportionately high rates of assault, of murder, of suicide, particularly for Maori and Pacific Island transgender youth. [00:52:00] The inability to have your gender identity publicly acknowledged, has been linked to all kinds of fatal outcomes in multiple studies. Uh, the Submitter said, it's my submission, uh, that any move to reduce gender to biological determination places Maori and Pacific Island youth at continued and increased risk risk of suicide. Uh, that's from, uh, and I thank her for bringing that to the fore. Uh, another submission, uh, talked about, uh, the great lengths that Trans [00:52:30] people go through under the status quo. The discrimination that they face. Uh, they talked about applying for a job, uh, using a birth certificate, which might be the only form of ID that you have, uh, the potential discrimination in the hiring process and the trauma, Uh, that said also enrolling in, uh, things like study, which for many of us is just a a very easy process to go through. Uh, but when, uh, the, uh, the gender doesn't match the person that's sitting in front of the administrator. The registrar, actually, uh, that [00:53:00] creates quite an incredibly intimidating and off-putting situation can make things quite overwhelming. Copy that. Same situation over to access to health care, access to government services, government support, especially when you're travelling and living overseas. Uh, if your birth certificate is that thing that you have to use again, it traumatises and re traumatises our trans community. Uh, and that was a submission that was put forward by the intersex Trust A in New Zealand. So thank you to and to, uh, for bringing that submission. Uh, [00:53:30] the other submission that I wanted to talk about was from Sharon Forsyth and Tommy Hamilton, uh, both champions within the community. And, uh, they put in their submission on behalf of parents and caregivers of transgender and gender diverse Children in New Zealand. Uh, the group has approximately 100 and 80 parent and caregiver members from across New Zealand. Uh, if nothing else, if there is a family out there that didn't know that this group exists now you do, uh, but what they took links to point out, uh, was that, uh, the of our Children [00:54:00] through this whole press, Uh, through this whole process, has got to be, um, something that we think about front of centre. Um uh, they said we're interested in this bill is gender identity and the social and legal recognition of that gender identity, as expressed by an individual, is considered to be a key factor in positive mental health outcomes for our Children and for other gender diverse individuals. When our Children live their lives as one gender and then are forced through legal documents to be referred to as a gender that isn't their own, it hurts them. Um, [00:54:30] they go on to say, we have experience of our Children being singled out, uh, say on domestic flights, uh, because they are in the system as their biological sex as opposed to their gender. And this leads to scrutiny, questioning and embarrassment. Uh, they have seen that in their own Children's lives. Uh, that being mis gendered makes that far, far worse. So, uh, Madam Speaker, uh, to all of the rainbow community that are out there listening tonight and to all of our allies, uh, that are swinging into support. Uh, we want to say to our trans [00:55:00] community, your lives matter, your stories matter, your struggles matter. We see you. We hear you. And tonight we stand beside you. Madam Speaker, I call on the honourable Louise Upton. Thank you, Madam Speaker. I'm, uh, proud to speak in the second reading and support births, deaths and marriages and relationships. Registration Bill, Um, which is, of course, a very clear example of how societal change isn't matched by legal changes. [00:55:30] So when the bill was first intro introduced in 2017 and August, uh, it was, of course, a national government at that time, and it was changing a piece of legislation that had only been introduced and passed in 95. Um, but even within the short period of time, uh, things have changed, uh, further so as others in the House have have talked about, the fact that it was introduced in 2017 was pretty straightforward. Pretty straightforward in terms of just Modernising [00:56:00] some of the access, the ability to change information and access, uh, records. Uh, and it also was looking at, um, burial and cremation law in 2018. Uh, there were significant changes that were recommended. Uh, part of that came from a petition, and, uh, Madam Speaker that just demonstrates that for people who are considering, uh, petitions to Parliament. Um, what you do, what you present to [00:56:30] parliament can make changes. And so I would encourage people who want to engage, uh, with the parliament to do exactly that. So the petition, um, to the select committee, uh, did lead to quite substantial changes to the bill, Uh, which allowed people to change their sex on their birth certificate via an administrative process, Uh, based on self identification. Um, of course. It was then withdrawn in 2019 by the then Minister Tracy Martin. [00:57:00] Uh, and Jan has done a significant amount of work in 2021 to draught an SOP that has been, um, discussed at length today. I do want to put on record, though, um, the concerns that my colleague, uh, Nicola Rigg, uh, clearly outlined and the concerns that the national caucus put in the minority report. And I would urge, um, members of the select committee that are going to be, uh, dealing with the inquiry to also consider, um, the [00:57:30] issues or the concerns, uh, that were that were raised at the time. And one of the things that I think is unfortunate. Um Madam, Uh, speaker is that most people don't get to see the working mechanics of how a select committee actually engages. Um, and that's always been, um, probably a disappointment of mine. Because if you think about whether real real work occurs, um, of parliamentarians, it's often in that select committee. So I'm going to take this opportunity to, [00:58:00] um, urge the members on the government and, um administration select committee to, uh, not only deal with the issues in the SOP using the inquiry powers, which is an unusual kind of mechanism that the minister has chosen. Um, but also consider the other issues and concerns that the national members, um, raised in, uh, the minority report. So there is an opportunity for further input, uh, and scrutiny. And I'd encourage people to take the opportunity to do [00:58:30] that. Um, as the act member outlined, it is a sensitive issue. Um, I would say it's also a complex issue, and one we shouldn't shy away from the very important need to make it easier for a person to change their sex recorded on their birth certificate and the need to maintain women's rights to retain protected spaces and services aimed at women. So I do encourage the public to participate in the inquiry. Um, and I do [00:59:00] encourage the select committee members to consider, um, the issues on the table. Thank you. I call on Prime [00:59:30] [01:00:00] Madam Speaker. Thank you for the opportunity to take a short call. Um, on the bill. [01:00:30] Um, this evening, I, um, firstly, wanted to to all of those who are here, um, tonight, uh, debating this also in the gallery and those watching at home. It is a very important, uh, to to many people, and I wanted to remind everybody of a that is, um, very famous up north. What is the most important thing in this world? It is people. It is people. It is people. And I hope that during this debate that we remember, um, that, [01:01:00] uh, I want to acknowledge the minister. Um, the Honourable her and I are walking friends, and so we have, uh, we go for a walk during the dinner break, and we have talked about this issue and how challenging. Um, it can be at times from the type of correspondence that she receives on this, um, on this issue. Um, but I am really proud of the principled approach that she has taken to doing. Uh, what is right? Um and what is fair, uh, to a group in our community. And so I'm pleased that it [01:01:30] has made it to this stage in the process. And I did want to, um, highlight a couple of things from her speech. Uh, that really, um, struck me. And I think the real issue that I, um, agree with is that people are being caused pain and discrimination because of a government issued birth certificate. You know, I think back in our history, and this hasn't always, um, existed. But since it has existed, [01:02:00] it has created a problem for some people. Under this bill, transgender, non-binary and intersex New Zealanders will no longer require proof of medical treatment or to show a court that they physically conform to the deeply held and lived knowledge of who they are and who they know themselves to be. The minister gave in her, um, opening speech. Uh, some evidence, uh, which I think is really compelling. When a survey was undertaken in 2019 [01:02:30] 83% of the community surveyed did not have the correct gender represented on their birth certificate. And it's those people and that percentage, Um, who responded to the survey that I think we really need to, um, concentrate on and focus on. And so I'm pleased that the minister is recommending that this be referred back to the select committee that there be, um, an inquiry process. And I really hope that for those who are, um, impacted [01:03:00] by this legislation for those who this legislation is in intended to serve, I hope that they submit and tell us whether it meets their needs or not. And that's the voice that I I'm not a member of that select committee, but I really do hope that they feel safe and able to participate in that process. Uh, also for those that might be listening, um, a point was made that while New Zealand, uh, does lead in many areas in the world, this is actually one area where, [01:03:30] um, where we aren't and that there are at least 15 other countries in the world who in fact already do this. And so, um, I think that it is time for us to, um to get on with it. to refer it to the select committee. I encourage everybody, um, to participate in that process, particularly those who this legislation is intended to serve. I call on Glenn Bennett. Thank you, Madam Speaker. And as I say that, I think maybe standing orders need [01:04:00] to be, uh, reviewed when it comes to Madam Speaker or Mr Speaker and in other forms again, as we are here, uh, looking at, um, at titles. And firstly, this evening, I want to, uh, say a big thank you to our transgender non-binary intersect and gender diverse. Thank you for bearing with us. Thank you for waiting for us to get to [01:04:30] this point. Now, this bill, uh, brings our birth deaths and marriages register into the 21st century. Now, this isn't just, uh, a technology thing creating greater access. This is also a cultural thing. This is also a space that, uh brings modern society, uh, into this legislation. And as we know, uh, and as Tamati co spoke earlier around Maori language in terms of those pronouns or lack of and, [01:05:00] of course, in our English language, uh, if you're referring to, uh, to others, there there's the four. There's uh, he I am sorry that wasn't that hard, was it? But of course, if we go back in time, um, good old English actually didn't have that back many, many centuries ago. Thee and thou was used commonly, So we are always on the move. As a culture, [01:05:30] we're always on the move. And as a nation, I'm proud to be part of this parliament as we progress as we ensure that we are an inclusive nation. And I came into this house because I knew what it was like to be on the margins. And I came into this house to ensure that my voice, uh, was part of of the voice of the margins here at Parliament. And I want to speak up for our community. I want to give a voice, and I hope that this piece of [01:06:00] legislation helps to remove the shame, the trauma that comes when having to negotiate paperwork and birth certificates and as our minister and thank you to our minister Jan, as she said earlier and was referred just before in that survey in 2019 that 83% of our transgender intersects and non-binary did not have the correct gender represented on their birth certificates. And I dream of a nation that [01:06:30] loves nurtures includes all people where our transgender intersects and non-binary feel affirmed, empowered and free to have their agenda that they want on their birth certificate. I want to thank all the parties in this Parliament for supporting this piece of legislation. This bill is a bill that is deeply affirming for some in our community, and I look forward to the day when gender identity [01:07:00] is not even considered. I don't know about going back to a day when we use these and now, but maybe a day when they and them is commonplace. I commend this build of the house. I call on Simon O'Connor and the speaker. The key thing when we ever get into the space of rights and particularly, uh, what we're talking about here at the core of one's identity or the community at large is competing views. [01:07:30] Uh, and there's probably nothing more essential than the sense of one's biological se, uh, sex, and then the sense of one's gender identity and how it's expressed not only in itself, but then how the community receives that. So I think it's a very positive decision tonight, uh, that the house, by the sound of it, is going to pass this second reading. But importantly, put, uh, the bill. Well, parts the bill effectively back to the select committee through an inquiry mechanism to have a discussion. Because if one thing has been, uh, very, very clear is that there are, if you will, two sides [01:08:00] to this discussion, uh, this debate and both have said they want a chance to speak, so I think that's a very healthy way forward. Uh, but the key to for any debate and discussion, uh, is respect for national, uh, debate. And that's something I'm looking forward to. I'm sure, uh, from members of parliament who sit on that committee. Uh, but something that I look forward to seeing much more of, uh, from the communities who come before the parliament to share their views. I call on Doctor Deborah [01:08:30] Russell, Madam Speaker. I wish to begin by thanking the Minister for bringing this SOP to the house and for sending it to the Select Committee for an inquiry. And I wish to thank all the speakers tonight who have approached this matter very carefully, and I think, respectfully, I want to reflect on the words of a wise man, Uh, Damien O'Connor. For the record, [01:09:00] uh, and it's something that Damian, uh, that Mr O'Connor, Damian, whatever. That man. Uh, chance Chance said to me, uh, as a relatively new parliamentarian, um, to me and some others about a year in, um and he said in this house, we don't legislate for the ordinary case. We legislate for the margins. And tonight we are here legislating for the marginalised [01:09:30] to try to help make the world a better place for people who have been pushed to the margins of our society. So I've heard that, uh, I've reflected on that for a long time that legislating for the margins and realising that our job here as parliamentarians is to protect the vulnerable is to support those who need extra help is to support people in unusual circumstances [01:10:00] who just wish to lead ordinary lives. And that is what we hope to enable them to do. I know that some of the people listening in tonight won't understand what it's all about. They just don't get it, you know? What's the problem with birth certificates and sex and official documents and the like, uh, you know, that's a pretty easy position for someone who is cisgender to take for someone [01:10:30] who just exists in the body they were born with and no worries about it. But actually, um, we don't those of us who are C gender don't need to understand. All we need to understand is that our Trans would like us to make this change to make their lives better. So that is what we are about. So tonight, Madam Speaker, I stand here for Kate for Lisa, who [01:11:00] comes to see me in my electorate office from time to time for Roy. Uh, for Sarah, Um, for kushla, stepson, for Anna's boy, for Emma's boy. These are friends and friends, Children who are working through this difficult process, which should not be difficult. And that is who we are here tonight who we are here for tonight for the marginalised. I urge those who submit to the select committee [01:11:30] to remember to treat this process with care and respect. Why? Because we are talking about the marginalised and we should have more care and more respect when that is what we are doing. And so with those words, Madam Speaker, I commend this to the house, right? The question is that the amendments recommended by the governance at at Administration committee by majority be agreed to Those of that opinion [01:12:00] will say I to the contrary. No, the eyes have it. The question is that the motion be agreed to those of that opinion will say I to the contrary. No, the eyes have it. Births, deaths and marriages and relationships. Registration bill Second reading. This bill is set down for committee stage next sitting day.

IRN: 3448
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/focus_on_politics_conversion_practises.html
ATL REF: 
ATL URL: 
TITLE: Focus on Politics: Conversion therapy
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Chris Penk; David Seymour; Heather du Plessis-Allan; Judith Collins; Katie Scotcher; Kris Faafoi; Max Tweedie; Paul Stevens; Simon Bridges
INTERVIEWER: Katie Scotcher
TAGS: 2020s; Chris Penk; Conversion Practices Prohibition Legislation Bill (2021); David Riddell; David Seymour; Heather du Plessis-Allan; Judith Collins; Katie Scotcher; Living Wisdom School of Counselling (Stoke); Max Tweedie; New Zealand Young Nationals; Paul Stevens; Radio New Zealand; Simon Bridges; conversion / reparative therapy; conversion practices; google. com
DATE: 6 August 2021
YEAR: 2021
LOCATION: Aotearoa New Zealand, Aotearoa New Zealand, Oceania
CONTEXT: RNZ's Focus on Politics discusses the Conversion Practices Prohibition Legislation Bill. The programme was broadcast a day after the Bill had its first reading in Parliament
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Welcome to focus on politics. It's a practise with no scientific basis, a treatment claiming to cure people of their sexuality but instead doing harm. Paul Stevens has experienced it firsthand. So [00:00:30] when I was 15 and I realised that I was gay, I was in church at the time, and I reached out to leaders in my church, and I was sent to a counsellor who told me that I could change my sexuality, that I didn't have to be gay. It wasn't until later in life, Paul Stevens realised the damage conversion therapy had caused. It holds you back. It means that you you don't start accepting who you are when you need to. When you're a young person and you're developing your sense of identity. If you have people [00:01:00] who are who are telling you that you need to change something which is actually fundamental about who you are, it does. It does do lasting damage, and for young people it can cause mental health issues. It can cause post traumatic stress disorder, and it's something that you have to work through. And as an adult, it is something that I've had to work through in terms of my sexuality. Conversion therapy is illegal in some parts of the world, but not New Zealand. Justice Minister Chris Fao said. It's time for change. I'm really happy today [00:01:30] to say that the government has introduced legislation to protect people from practises that seek to convert a person's sexual orientation, gender identity or gender expression. The legislation creates two new criminal offences. The first is performing conversion practises on a child or young person aged under 18 or on someone with impaired decision making capacity. It carries a prison sentence of up to three years. The second, more serious offence is conducting [00:02:00] conversion practises on anyone irrespective of age and causing serious harm. Such an offence would be subject to up to five years imprisonment. The bill also creates a pathway for civil redress. This bill will not outlaw a person's right to hold a personal beliefs about sexual orientation or gender identity. It will not stop parents having conversations with their Children or pastors with parishioners who may be wrestling with their sexuality or gender identity, and it will [00:02:30] not stop parents or religious leaders from offering support. But the bill does draw a line between supporting someone and going beyond that to intentionally change their sexual orientation or gender identity. Those who have long advocated for a ban celebrated the bill but were quick to point out parts of the legislation they believe need improving. Auckland Pride executive director Max Tweedy told morning report S Corin Dann what he would like to see changed the first is around that kind of [00:03:00] serious harm threshold for people that are over the age of 18. We see that because you know, just because someone is over the age of 18 or not a minor doesn't mean that this kind of severe negative impacts of conversion therapy won't be felt on them. And I think you know, because conversion therapy doesn't work in every case and causes harm in every case, we're interested. Why, there's, I guess, such a high threshold, um, defined under the legislation and then such a high threshold for prosecution under the act as well. Yeah, the definitions could be interesting with, as this goes through [00:03:30] the political process, because I've seen some criticism from religious groups on the right, fearful that the definition of conversion therapy and what it actually is could lead to parents getting caught up with this. What is your view on that? I mean, I think you know, when we're actually looking at the people that will be criminalised by this legislation. I think, you know, we're talking about the really quite extreme cases, the people, you know, like David and Nelson who are advertising this, you know, quite proudly. Whereas I think you know, when it comes to families, [00:04:00] I think that's where the civil redress scheme comes in. And I mean, we don't want to see kind of families, you know, criminalised because of this, But we do want it to be a really strong deterrent and for there to be ways for survivors to, you know, access redress from the scheme, but also for it to actually stop. So I don't think the intention is that we're going to parents to jail through this legislation. But it will send a strong message for parents to stop doing this, that it is wrong and you are harming your child, but also that there's redress in that scheme. [00:04:30] And I think that's another area as well in terms of the way that this bill survivors that we think could be improved. Z contacted a number of people who run conversion practises to ask what they think about the proposed ban. They declined to speak on record and took offence at the suggestion they would be affected despite openly advertising conversion practises. Now the government is banning conversion practises that try to change someone's sexual orientation or their gender identity. The new bill has been introduced to parliament today. Chris Fao [00:05:00] is responsible minister. Hello, good afternoon. As is standard practise, the minister appeared on various media outlets to answer questions about the legislation. But it was this interview with Newstalk ZB here, the duple Allen that Chris Faro showed his confusion when trying to explain the piece of legislation, for example, saying to a child who may be pre pre and saying, I want to go on a hormone blockers, saying No, you can't that's cool with you No, it's not that so [00:05:30] So let me go back to what you first asked, um, about, um, ministers, um, they are supporting people day in, day out parents are supporting their Children who do have gender issues that regardless of whether it's a priest, a parent or the rugby coach down the road. The fundamental part of this bill is that you can't intend to change someone else's sexual orientation. But hold on. If it's a parent saying to a 12 year old now, you can't go on the hormone blockers because you're 12, you're not OK with this. [00:06:00] So what it's about is there are two here. Um, Heather, there is a protection, uh, for people to understand who they are and to be there who they are, and express that so and also for the likes of the priest that you talk about to be able to continue to express their religious belief or principle. I believe, um, because of what we've seen through the engagement that parents are having good open discussions and healthy discussions with their with their Children if they have sexual orientation issues or gender issue gender [00:06:30] identity issues. What we don't want, uh, is in some of those situations, um, uh, either a priest or a parent or again, the rugby coach down the road, forcing their opinion or around, uh, sexual orientation and an attempt to change somebody else's. I'm not asking you that. I'm just saying as a parent or a guardian right. You're in charge of a 12 year old who cannot make proper decisions because they're not an adult. Are you telling you just answered before when I asked you if it was OK for the parent to say no [00:07:00] to the hormone blockers, said no. Then I stopped to make sure that we were on the same wave. Your position on the interview continued like this for a few more minutes and left many listeners more confused than they were to begin with. It's deja vu for the minister, who was widely criticised last month for not properly understanding his hate speech legislation and confusing the public debate when asked about it by journalists. [00:07:30] But Chris FAO is defending his performance and says he has informed the public debate. How do you feel that you've communicated this piece of legislation and do you think you've been clear enough in the way that you, I guess, have sold it to voters? Yeah, absolutely. I think it's pretty clear what we're trying to do. I think we've made it clear what the intent of the bill is to make sure we're preventing harm and making sure we're in situations where people are going through a decision about who they want to be, um, that they have the absolute right to do that. Um, [00:08:00] I know, you know, even from a little bit of the engagement we had just before we made our announcement that there will be some feedback from the community. We'll watch that closely through the select committee because we want to make sure that Bill is as good as it can be. Proactively released documents show. Ministry of Justice officials told Chris Faro clear communication on conversion therapy and hate speech. Law changes was key to properly informing the debate. Do you feel like you have properly informed the debate? Well, I agree with the [00:08:30] Ministry of Justice. And, yes, Chris Faro's recent performance has shown how easily sensitive policies can blow up in labor's face. But it's not a godsend for national. With the legislation highlighting the divide between its liberal and conservative MPs. Political commentator and national Party member Liam Hare says social issues will always be a sore spot for the party because the National Party isn't a conservative party. It's a conservative [00:09:00] and a liberal party. There's not going to be a high degree of consensus on on these or many social issues. So you know, when it decides to object or support something, it's always going to have to have and and cautions, and it's going to have to make internal compromises. And it means that its messaging is always going to be a little bit confused at the best of times. That's just that's just an outcome of being a big tent party or a broad, broad church party. And the messaging this time round [00:09:30] has been confusing. In February, after the government announced it was working on a conversion therapy ban, national leader Judith Collins told reporters her party would back it. We're opposed to gay conversion therapy, and so we look forward to the bill being presented to us. And why is that? Can you explain why the National Party, that's the right thing to do? We none of us have any, uh, truck with anybody being bullied [00:10:00] or told that they're wrong. Uh, when they're dealing with their sexuality did come to a unanimous decision on that. Our decision was absolutely, um, it was a decision. Um, everyone was very happy with it. Can you explain how exactly you reached that decision and what research you did. Well, I, um, use this thing called Google to find out more about it. And then I also listen to people like young nationals who are very progressive on such issues, and [00:10:30] they were very helpful. But it appears as though the message from the young Nats was drowned out by the party's conservative majority. On Tuesday, the National Party released a statement following its weekly caucus meeting. It supported the bill's intent, but not as it is currently worded. National would be opposing the legislation at first reading. Now that we've seen the bill, it's clear that there are a couple of issues that do need to be ironed out. So we've made clear that a couple of sticking points for us now [00:11:00] should be discussed and debated, and if we can get there in terms of those being resolved, then we'll be in a position where we can vote for it at second reading and beyond, I asked nationals Chris Pink, filling in for the party's justice spokesperson, Simon Bridges. What the party wants to see changed in the legislation, We'll see what is brought forward by a way of things that we may not have understood or considered as at now, because I say the bill is pretty new. But certainly the one major sticking point that appears clear to us is [00:11:30] that it's not clear that a parent, uh, will be free from criminal prosecution following a conversation with their own child. Even as initiated by the child, there's no consent exception, and there's no parental exception. Part of the problem with conversion therapy is Children. Young people are taken to these conversion therapy practises, um, sometimes by their parents. And that is part of the problem because their parents are unhappy with the sexual orientation that they, um, you know, fall [00:12:00] under or whatever. And they're unhappy with that so that they take their Children to these conversion therapy practises. Shouldn't parents be punished for that? Trying to change their Children? Well, I think there's a lot of different, uh, possibilities within even what you've described. And I think it's a genuine, serious, uh, good faith question that you pose. Um, and that's exactly the kind of thing that we need to thrash out, um, at select committee. And it might be that we draw a line uh, as a parliament between a parent having conversations themselves as opposed to a parent, saying, Uh, without the consent of the young person, [00:12:30] I'm going to take you to a third party who will change your mind or whatever. So maybe that's a valid distinction. But again, you know, it's not for me to prejudge that in terms of the select committee process, it's for everyone who's got a strong view on it to make a submission. Changes in the bill, however, won't rid national of its divide. Is it possible for the party to reach consensus on conversion therapy? And what would it take? The answer to? Whether we can all come around a single view? Uh, will be, uh, it's very much the boards in the government's court. Um, because [00:13:00] if the minister Chris we can do a better job of understanding and explaining his own bill, that will give us more comfort. And certainly if there's a willingness to listen and to change as needed, including, and especially again in relation to the parental exemption and maybe allowing for a young person if they want to consent to have a discussion, then you know that will make our life a lot easier in terms of deciding the ACT. Party shares similar concerns to National but took a more conventional approach. We're going to vote for it at the first reading because we believe that [00:13:30] people deserve to have a say at select committee. I think it's very unlikely that we'll continue to audit. They're going to have to argue very hard to show that this piece of legislation isn't going to inadvertently criminalise conversations between parents and their Children. I think that's wrong. National was the lone opposition voice during the heated first reading at Parliament. Madam Speaker. We want to make a very firm statement that conversion practises do not work. [00:14:00] Parents should be allowed to be parents and to explore sexuality and gender with their Children. I felt like I was broken. I felt like I needed to be fixed. I heard words like abomination. I am not an abomination. My God does not believe that abomination. He loves me just the way I am. We will always support to be who they are, and conversion therapy, which tries to stop [00:14:30] for being who they are, has no place in a might be in New Zealand, but not a at the heart of this is our Children and them knowing that they are perfect as they are, that they are loved and that we, as a society will value them and not let any harm happen to them and their exploration and their expression of who they are. I seriously say to the national Party, you are on [00:15:00] the wrong side of history. So the Labour government members are basically saying the state should have more say over your family than parents. That's exactly it. That is the crux of it. So make the parental exemption. Nationals Opposition leaves the caucus at odds with its youth wing The president of the Young Nats, Stephanie Anne Ross, says she's deeply disappointed the party didn't support the bill at first reading. The group has long supported a ban on conversion therapy [00:15:30] and said while the bill isn't perfect, the problem should be ironed out at select committee. And that's where the bill is off to now, a reminder that regardless of how National chooses to vote, the majority government has the mandate to do what it wants. Legislation banning conversion therapy will become law. Let's focus on politics. I'm Katie Scotch. Thanks for joining us, mate.

IRN: 3446
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rnz_media_watch_laurel_hubbard.html
ATL REF: 
ATL URL: 
TITLE: Laurel Hubbard media coverage
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Colin Peacock; Laurel Hubbard
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; 2021 Summer Olympic Games (Tokyo); Aotearoa New Zealand; Colin Peacock; Japan; Laurel Hubbard; Tokyo; media; sport; trans; transgender; weight lifting
DATE: 8 August 2021
YEAR: 2021
LOCATION: Aotearoa New Zealand, Aotearoa New Zealand, Oceania
CONTEXT: RNZ's MediaWatch looks at the media coverage relating to Olympian Laurel Hubbard - the first openly transgender athlete to complete at the Olympics.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: This is an RNZ podcast. Can they do it? So Lisa is also in the final of the K two. As we just mentioned with Caitlin Regal. That's in under an hour. Stay with us. You won't want to miss any of that. More reaction to this gold medal. Next. That was TV N Z's Olympic anchor Tony Street last Tuesday, just after kayaker Lisa Carrington had won her third Olympic gold medal, and that made her New Zealand's most gilded [00:00:30] female Olympian ever. And the reason TV NZ busted out Beyonce telling us, It's girls around the world to take us into the ad break. Don't be scared of. Later that night, Tom Walsh's shot put competition with the other big guys was ushered in with the soundtrack from Madagascar, too. And I like them joking, joking, joking, joking. Now, by that point, Lisa Carrington had won [00:01:00] another gold in the K two. Then we got a bronze in the boxing and a silver in the K 49 sailing, during which Steven Beaver Donald on the new sports network SENZ had to remind himself and the listeners that were actually on the radio and not on TV is great again. We can't say great view because our listeners are are watching this. And after all that, a new hub site breathlessly reported that New Zealand was third on the medals table. That's the 14 medals per [00:01:30] capita, behind only Bermuda and San Marino. Now it's only countries obsessed with punching above their weight that ever look for those rankings, though weirdly, they don't say as much about the medals per competitor table with twice as many competitors as Ireland, which has roughly the same population. We languish in the mid thirties in that ranking, punching about our weight with the likes of Denmark and Croatia. Another gold on this marvellous day of canoeing. Olympic champion New [00:02:00] Zealand. As we now know, Lisa Carrington went on to become the goat in the boat and winning more gold medals on the water to become our most decorated Olympian. Full stop. Never mind the gender, though gender was the agenda for most of the media who turned up to the women's super heavyweight weightlifting on Monday evening, needs to stay in the competition. It's gone out the back door. What a shame. What a shame. [00:02:30] Well, that will be the end of the hobbits competition, and she bows out thanks the crowd for their support. That was indeed, the end of Laurel Hubbard's games, but not the end of the media noise around her. While she didn't even come close to a medal, she made more global headlines than any other Kiwi Olympian. Even though these Olympics are fan free, Laurel Hubbard still drew a crowd on Monday, among them Z's Maya Burry, who explained it was almost all media. And when she stepped onto the platform to perform her [00:03:00] first lift, the sound of the cameras clicking really was unlike anything I've ever heard before. And I think it does give you a bit of an indication of the significance of this moment in Olympic history. And among the camera carrying crowd was the BBC's chief sports correspondent, Dan Rowan. It was an appearance that made Olympic history. Laurel Hubbard may not have won a medal here today, but this was still a major milestone for trans athletes, and regardless of her performance, she will remain at the very [00:03:30] centre of one of the most divisive issues in sport, one that is forcing it to confront the tension between inclusivity and fairness. Well, that question of fairness was on the minds of all of the reporters, too, though reporters were reluctant to ask the question on their minds straight out when confronting the actual competitors. I was wondering, You know what you felt about that and what you felt that that it took place in in your sport. However, the bronze medallist on the night Sarah Robles from the US made it pretty clear [00:04:00] they would get no comment from her. No thank you. And on its live blog stuff warned its readers here that it would not publish any comments other than acceptable comments regarding her performance lifting weights that night now. While this issue was divisive, TVN Z's reporter Fna Owen pointed out this irony before the event. Both those vehemently for and against Olympic trans athletes really want her to win, and after it press journalist Philip Matthews made a similar point. Ironically, the people most disappointed [00:04:30] she didn't win, though those who opposed her being there and it was the very definition of a lose lose situation for Laurel Hubbard herself. And that's something an expert and author on transgender rights and policy professor Jamie Taylor at the University of Toledo, told Newshub reporter Michael O'Keefe back in June. I don't usually go in the media because I don't want to get attacked. Perhaps that's the reason why Hubbard hasn't done media since she was named in the Olympic team earlier this week. If you could say something to Laurel, [00:05:00] what would it be? I. I understand why you're you're quiet because that that's the way that I've been throughout most of my professional life as well, Much like you, I show up and do my job, so I get it, because the the scrutiny that you face is is pretty pretty high. Well, it certainly was this week, and News Hub's Michael O'Keefe. There was one of few reporting on Laurel Hubbard's situation who actually included an authentic trans voice. Now, some in the media, though, form their opinions just off the top of their heads. [00:05:30] I've missed that one, so so what? Who is she? She's a She's a transgender, uh, weight lifting in the women's category. She's born a man. Yes, yeah, and she's very good. Oh, she shouldn't be be there. If you bought a man, you can't compete in the women's. I can see how that is a complicated debate that I don't think in 36 or less We were labelled to do justice. But how can you be born a man and then compete in the women's section News Hub's Duncan Garner there with an on the spot opinion back in March 2019 on the AM show? [00:06:00] Though he hadn't changed his on air opinion after Hubbard's failure on Monday night, I've got an issue with her being in the women's action. She was born a man, correct? Yes, OK, so she has muscle memory and traits of man and her strength. I don't think it's fair, and I don't think it's right. But this time in the AM studio, there was a veteran sports journalist, Brendan Telfer, able to drop an effect or two. I heard what you said just a few moments ago. Well, I, I I'm just For the record, I'm no doctor [00:06:30] or a scientist, but I have interviewed enough of experts in these fields and time and time again, they tell me, which makes sense is that when you transition from a male to a female, you undergo certain medical procedures which I can't talk with any great expertise on, but what they effectively do is they reduce the testosterone level of this transgender person. So Lauren Harvard, although she was a male weightlifter in her junior years, is a is a male has lost all [00:07:00] of that strength. Can you? Can't you see that I can't see that? Well, she has. But that's not to say there aren't legitimate questions to explore and grey areas for sports student to explain, though some who tried to do that were criticised for it. New Zealand Herald sports editor at large Dylan Cleaver said this in an opinion piece last Monday before Laurel Hubbard's competition. The legitimacy of her presence at Tokyo is complex, and those who dismiss it as she's only playing by the rules laid down by the International Olympic Committee could be [00:07:30] accused of answering the wrong question. Even the IOC's medical and science director has said the current guidelines were no longer fit for purpose and that the science has moved on and that is true. And it's the reason why. Dylan Cleaver said many New Zealanders, including himself, admired Laurel Hubbard, yet remained uncomfortable or unsure about her competing well after Laurel Hubbard tried and failed to lift those weights. On Monday, Daily Mail sports writer Raith al Samari summed up her situation like [00:08:00] this. One has to admire Hubbard and sympathise, too, because she stood at the middle of a frenzied intersection between sport, science and gender politics. And it's all the more remarkable in that case that the least frenzied and most economical voice of all in the media was that of Laurel Hubbard herself in the obligatory post competition interview, she was honest about being overwhelmed by the Olympic occasion on Monday and when Sky sports Ricky Snell asked her about the second lift, which was flagged as a foul by two judges. [00:08:30] But not all three. Laurel Hubbard had no complaints. Weight lifting does have rules, of course, like any sport. And, uh, if I've broken or contravene those rules, then it must have been a no lift. And then, inevitably, came questions about her eligibility. How are you able to to block out the periphery, the interest and just just be you get out there and perform and perform well for New Zealand? Oh, that's a good question. Um, I'm not sure it's possible for any person to really block out everything that's happening in the world. Um, but, [00:09:00] uh, you just do what you can and get on with it. And in a subsequent press conference with reporters, where Laurel Hubbard was clearly uncomfortable, she showed a combination of self awareness and self deprecation that's not always evident in our sports people, or, indeed just about anyone who finds themselves in public life. I think I told that I'm looking forward to my career as a pub quiz question the suit that might sound slightly facetious, but there is a kernel of truth in that, um, I've never been involved in sport because I'm interested in [00:09:30] publicity or profile. Uh, and so, uh, if it means that I now begin to descend into graceful obscurity, then, um, I'm OK with that Now. This wasn't Laurel Hubbard's first big competition on the big stage. This may be her last, but there's little chance of this Trailblazer fading into obscurity no matter how much or how little she engages with the media from now on. And even though she never sought to be a spokesperson, this response, when asked rather awkwardly for [00:10:00] her message to supporters and all New Zealanders is also one we'll probably be hearing again. I think the world is changing and there are opportunities for people to be out in the world and and do things just as any other person would do. And so if there's one thing I'd like to pass on, it's this life is difficult. There are disappointments. I know. I certainly have some today as so do we all. But, uh, if you just keep pressing on, it does get better. [00:10:30] And on the subject of pressing on a more successful Olympian than Laurel Hubbard, rower Eric Murray made this point on the AM show last Tuesday. We should sort of be celebrating the fact that she is a Trailblazer, because this isn't going away. If we look at it and we're only probably what, 40 years ago, where we were sitting here in sport going, Oh, are they going to let women compete in our events? This is a male sport, you know? So we've got we're in that conversation at the moment where trans athletes aren't going away. So we've just got to figure out how they fit into the equation, [00:11:00] which is sport well, that conversation he spoke of. There has often been a shouting match when it's about Laurel Hubbard with lots of ignorance and overreaction turning up the volume Laurel Hubbard was a catalyst for it, but also maybe a calming influence.

IRN: 3444
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rnz_library_of_congress_archives_pridenz.html
ATL REF: 
ATL URL: 
TITLE: Library of Congress archives PrideNZ. com
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Gareth Watkins
INTERVIEWER: Bryan Crump
TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bryan Crump; Gareth Watkins; Library of Congress; Radio New Zealand; United States of America; Wellington; archives; pridenz. com
DATE: 4 August 2021
YEAR: 2021
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: The United States Library of Congress has selected the pridenz. com website for preservation in the Library of Congress Web Archive. RNZ's Bryan Crump talks to founder Gareth Watkins. The interview was broadcast on RNZ National during Nights with Bryan Crump on 4 August 2021.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Pride. NZ has just one recognition recognition from the US Library of Congress, and with me now is former RNZ producer and engineer and passionate archivist Gareth Watkins. Kya Gareth Brian. It feels a bit like I'm Norma Desmond coming back on Sunset Boulevard, and these studios seem very familiar and familiar faces. As long as you don't go psycho on me, [00:00:30] that's fine. Might start singing pride NZ Just remind us of what it is. So pride. NZ started 11 years ago, 2010, and it was a way of collecting and distributing rainbow LGBTI voices from a New Zealand. And so far it has over 900 recordings online of events of interviews, um, a whole range of different perspectives on Queer [00:01:00] Life in New Zealand right back to the 19 sixties. So, um, it's an amazing archive of just personal experiences that you just would not get anywhere else. So let's have a listen to something that's on the archive, shall we? We're in on the, uh, parade, and we're about to take part in the world's unofficial shortest para parade. Well, is this the first time you've been in a parade? Yes, it is. Yes, it is [00:01:30] a bit nervous, but, um, yeah, I'm excited. And so, um, who are you here today with, Uh, I'm here with, um, my group from KES. Uh, we're a little after school group that meets every Wednesdays. Um, and we just, you know, get together and hang out. And, um, we just support each other. And so why are those kind of groups important? It's really, really important because it gives you the opportunity to actually come out of your shell, you know, not have to hide anything. [00:02:00] Um, and it's great, because once you start talking about it and once you, um you know, you can start to understand everything and it's helped me a lot, you know, understand who I am and who I want to be. Why do you think, uh, pride, parades? Pride events are important because it's a celebration of the community that we have. And, um, it's you know, it's showing that we're here and, um, you know, we're part of the community, and, um, [00:02:30] we're a really strong family together. And, um, when we're all together, you know, we can accomplish great things. Now, Gareth, that was you doing the interview, wasn't it? It certainly was. And it's going back to 2019. This is the world's unofficial shortest pride parade in the world. Um, 100 metres 100 metre rainbow dash. I think this is literally This is a pedestrian crossing in and they [00:03:00] painted in rainbow colours. They chalk it in rainbow colours because the council doesn't like the idea of painting a rainbow crossing. And so they chalk it. An activist chalks it the night before and they march over it, um, on Pride Day, and then it gets washed away. Um, it's not the first rainbow crossing in New Zealand. The first one is Queenstown, the second one being in Wellington. And that was opposed by the Transport Authority and the police. And the Transport Authority said it was going to create [00:03:30] a dazzling and distracting effect. Um, which I I No, no, no. I ride over it all the time. I'm a cyclist. You know, I'm I'm pretty sort of sensitive to that kind of stuff, but Riki was was amazing because, uh, went up there. The whole community takes part. Well, from what I could see, um, the Pride parade was led by the primary school. Um, and they did a whole kind of diversity handprints. Kind of, um, banner at the start. Uh, the the the [00:04:00] parade itself. Um, it has a bit of a warm up. They start, um, about 20 minutes out of town on the coast, there's a there's a park and they they walk for about 20 minutes along the coast, and people come out of the houses and cheer and the walks long walk to the parade is longer than the parade by the little, um, degrees of magnitude. But the the feeling, um, it's it's such an inclusive, um, heartfelt, um, parade and event. And, um, the whole community come together, and it's just amazing. But there are a couple. There's [00:04:30] there's this thing that strikes me about that, Gareth, and that is that this archive is not just about finding the movements and shakers. You don't just want those voices, do you? No. No, it it's also the everyday experiences because the everyday experiences are often overlooked. Um, I, I heard on your show a couple of weeks ago about the 20 years out programme that we mark. We marked the 20th. No, no, not the 20. What was it 35th anniversary of of passing on the Homosexual Law reform bill with a sonic tonic. [00:05:00] And I go and get sound bites and I got lots of sound bites from your 20 years out documentary from 2006. It doesn't feel like 15 years ago, but here we are. But a lot of that material came from activists in the community working on access community radio. So a lot of what has been captured around kind of queer culture in New Zealand, um, particularly in radio broadcasting, is not through public broadcasters. It's not through commercial stations. It's through [00:05:30] community members going out and recording themselves. And this is, I think, where I get a lot of my inspiration from. You've always because as a colleague of mine here at RNZ and we still miss your ears, Gareth, Um, as a colleague of mine, you always view archiving material as really important. Why is that? They the the voices from the past are always kind of present. I mean, it's it's It's that that immediate connection where you hear, [00:06:00] um, somebody in your family talking to you, and it's as if they are still with you. Um, it's it's It's how people think it's how people speak. Um, and how that changes and how that changes. Yeah, absolutely. Did you start recording your own family and friends when you were younger? I think my earliest recording is of me doing a radio station called DRM Darlington Road. Um, back in the eighties. And, um, I think [00:06:30] my first bits of music were Make your mind up and making your mind up at the time. The first, the first film that I was taken to by my dad was the village people Y, MC a And so I thought, you know, did your dad have an inkling of what was going on there? I don't think any of us had an inkling of what was going on. Um, but I think actually, a lot of that storytelling comes from my dad's side. So So my dad's Welsh, Um and a lot [00:07:00] of that is is oral storytelling. And, um, Dad was amazing because, um, every time he told a story, it got kind of got bigger and bigger and bigger. Um, the the the the facts, less and less and less and um, it was it was just really lovely. Um, to be able to hear somebody express themselves in their own words and express themselves the way they want to express themselves, Um was key for me. And I think, um, that's [00:07:30] what you find in community broadcasting now, Gareth, obviously one of the reasons to have you in is because generally when you do anything to do with radio and sound it, it's great. And, um, the sound bites are going to be fantastic. We got some more from the archive from the Pride NZ archive to share. But the other reason is that pride in Z has got recognition from the US Library of Congress. Um, do you know exactly what that means and how it happened? I have [00:08:00] no idea how it happened. I was I was sitting at home. Um, he didn't get a call from Donald. I guess he's left the library now. II. I was sitting at home and an email came in and I thought, Oh, this is just spam. It's, you know, like somebody wanting $10,000 or what have you saying that the Library of Congress thought that the website was important and of historical significance, and I wonder how they found out about it. Well, II, I know [00:08:30] they have kind of researchers doing research in particular areas. I'm not sure how the site came up, but, um, I'm not gonna look a gift horse in the mouth. It's like, Yeah, I'll take it. But it's a It's a great honour. I think it's an honour. Um, for all the people that contributed to the site. So like, I mean, the website could not exist without the community feeding into it feeding into their stories. Um, you know, you go back 30 years [00:09:00] and people were kind of scared to document their lives. I mean, currently, the Pride DNZ site has 900 items on online of of personal stories. Those are audio items, the audio items. Now, those experiences those personal stories existed well prior to to To and but where are they documented? So it just seems to me that there's a huge hole in our kind of institutional collecting [00:09:30] in terms of, um, queer existence in A and, um, I think right from the mid eighties, after homosexual law reform in 86 there has been a real groundswell of people. Um, within the rainbow communities, creating media about themselves and II. I just think that's wonderful. N is just a part of that. The next piece of audio from from pride NZ from your archive is of somebody a voice that I think quite a few people will recognise. [00:10:00] Let's have a listen to that. After those articles and truth, How did you I guess present yourself in terms of I mean, did you kind of come out and present yourself as yes, I am a lesbian? Or did you just say, Well, it's none of your business. Yeah, pretty much. Look, you know, anybody who who sees me in public, anybody who knows me, everybody knows, You know, I don't make a secret of it, but I'm not here to fuel [00:10:30] truths and come, um, I just, you know, as I've always said, I'll just go on, get on with my life. Um, but, uh, it made a huge difference for the gay community. You know, so many people over so many years have come up and said you've got no idea. You know, we were sitting at the table and mum was saying It's outrageous. How dare they and Dad were saying It's nobody's business and I finally had the opportunity to say, Well, I'm glad you think that because I am. [00:11:00] That was Marilyn Waring. Of course. When did you interview Gareth? Because that was your voice at the front. Of course it was 2012 and Marilyn was amazing. And is so much is somebody that I have so much respect for. The only woman in the national caucus in the 19 seventies, um, was completely outed by the truth newspaper in the in the late seventies. Um, and suffered, um, weeks of front page coverage from from the [00:11:30] truth. And, um, she is so resilient and has gone on to do so many amazing things. Um, these are the people that I look to, and I kind of aspire to, and I have so much admiration for is most of the material there the result of your own interviews, Gareth, there's a whole range. So, uh, there are my interviews, but I, I really love the idea of peer interviewing. So youth interviewing youth, um, elders interviewing elders. Um, because everyone sees [00:12:00] the world quite differently and the kind of questions that you ask. Um, changes. Um, depending on who you're asking them and who's asking, Um, and to actually get access to some parts of the community. You actually need that peer interviewing, you know, as a as a kind of middle aged white guy. I'm not always going to be the best person to ask the questions here, and I absolutely acknowledge that. And And I think, actually, um, the best thing to do is actually, um, do that peer interviewing. [00:12:30] Let's listen to something else. I think this is, um, Dr Susan Jones. Now, this is a Is this a church service? This was a church service, Uh, that was going to be held in pride in 2019 in Wellington. So we're talking about the 17th of March 2019. Um, on the Saturday was going to be, um, a huge, uh, queer fear out in the out in the square. Um, and it was followed by this church service. What happened on the Friday was, um, absolutely shocking [00:13:00] and shocked everyone. So where do you start? Where do you begin to unravel the events of Christchurch? 15th of March, 2019, At first I thought, changing the reflection today left out the very group whose festival is right now, the rainbow community, with its variety of sexual orientations and gender identities. And then I thought again, because [00:13:30] what happened in Christchurch is just another facet of the difficulty we all have as human beings relating to and embracing those who are other. To us, it's significant. I think, that three particular closures I heard of requested by police in the past two or three days affect groups that suffer the same circumstance in some way. They are different from the majority or the perceived norm. [00:14:00] Obviously, mosques were requested to suspend their services. The Muslim community, though not inconsiderable in numbers, is a minority in this country. And on Saturday, so too, was the Jewish synagogue asked not to meet another religious minority, and also the pride parade and the fair out in the park were cancelled. So the Muslim, the Jewish and the Rainbow communities are all [00:14:30] minorities within Western society, and that difference that minority status makes the rest of that society edgy. Did you recall that Gareth? Absolutely. It was a It was a very moving service and um, I. I just recall the shock that was going through. I think the entire country after those, uh, terror attacks, I have to say that Saint Andrews on the terrace, which is a a Presbyterian congregation [00:15:00] here in Wellington, has been so supportive of not only the Rainbow Communities, but they are a a centre for social justice. And they've been a centre for social justice for, you know, decades. Um, and the other church in Wellington is ST Peters and Willis Street. And they, um, been at the forefront of of, um, social change as well. And I just want to say one thing, if if that's OK, which was I saw the other day, the Salvation Army coming out in support [00:15:30] of banning conversion therapy. And I just think from where the Salvation Army was in the mid eighties, in terms of, um, really kind of vilifying homosexuals to where they are now is extraordinary. And it's a big shout out to the Salvation Army. Um, their recent guidelines for, um, Salvation ISS. I'll just give you a little quote. Um, salvation. ISS will continue to oppose vilification of, or discrimination against anyone [00:16:00] on the grounds of sexuality or gender salvation lists will not act directly or indirectly to encourage, refer to or engage with any other form of any form of gay conversion or reparative therapies or practises. And I just, um I never thought I'd be shouting out the Salvation Army on national radio, but, um, but II I think it's such an amazing step that they've done and, um, they should be very proud of themselves. You were recording and and sending out [00:16:30] archival material these conversations that you you cherish and you want you want to save and preserve Before the Internet era, weren't you You were sending out C DS around the world, weren't you? 19 nineties. This is Did you do it all on your own? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So So, um, 19 nineties, Um, the internet had just started and there was no audio streaming, no video streaming. The only way to disseminate information was either [00:17:00] on a cassette tape or on a CD a CD. Sending a CD across the world would be, you know, 20 or $30. And what would you put on a typical CD? Would you would people request stuff and you You'd then just go and find it and do well. But CD or cassette by cassette. Yeah, I was I was making documentaries right from the 19 nineties with with, um, queer voices. And so it was a way of getting those voices from a which have a very unique experience, um, to the rest of the world, Um, [00:17:30] often, you would send them, and you wouldn't hear anything back. Um, interestingly, last year I got an email from somebody that received an, um, a CD 20 years ago, and they wrote to me and just expressed to me how much of a beacon of hope it was to actually hear queer voices. They were in a space where, um they couldn't be themselves. They couldn't be authentically them. Where were they? They were in Arkansas and the US, Um, and it was hearing the voices [00:18:00] from New Zealand that actually gave them hope in terms of of just feeling that they weren't a freak. Like, there are other people just like me, and therefore I'm actually more normal than I thought. Just just being just just just hearing an experience reflected. And I think a lot of experiences are universal. So whether it's in, um, Arkansas or whether it's in Wellington or Christchurch. There's [00:18:30] a universal truth. Have you got time for one more? I'm looking at my producer, and he's nodding because I know you brought in something else. This is, um Now, this is the reopening from the reopening of the Rainbow Room in Parliament. I didn't know Parliament had a rainbow room. This is a really special recording. So in 2019, there was a reopening, Um, event at Parliament and the Rainbow Room is a select committee room in, um, parliament buildings. And it has rainbow flags. It has legislation, um, relating to rainbow [00:19:00] communities. And it has, uh, pictures on the wall of out proud out rainbow politicians, which is really fantastic. The reopening was attended by a whole range of people, including Sarah, Sarah McBride and Peter Tatchell. And they're both activists. Um, Sarah has subsequently become the first openly transgender state senator in the US, Um, which is, um amazing. And Peter Tatchell is is a, um, a long term, um A And [00:19:30] in this recording, they talk about the where New Zealand sits in the global scheme of of kind of Queer Rights. It is incredibly fitting that this new and improved Rainbow Room will be dedicated near the 50th anniversary of the Stonewall uprising in New York City. Because one of the many, many legacies of Stonewall is the power of an individual act to reverberate around the world. [00:20:00] And at a time when LGBT Q people find themselves under attack in far too many corners of the globe, including in my home country of the United States, the actions and the work here in the New Zealand Parliament have never been more important because for the last several decades you all have been at the forefront of the movement for the rights and dignity of LGBTQ people around the world, from marriage, equality to the globally historic election of Georgina Bayer. You [00:20:30] all have not just made change for people here in New Zealand. You have set the bar and challenged the world to live up to our highest ideals and to be our best Selves outside of these boundaries. Outside of this coastland, there isn't a person I know who is not Trans or who is not gender, non conforming or intersex. Who doesn't look to Georgina Baer as the iconic Gandhi of the movement. [00:21:00] Being the first in the world again is a remarkable achievement, and her courage, her tenacity, her authenticity transforms hearts and minds. I don't want to be melodramatic, but we know that queer kids around the world, in places that are less affirming than in New Zealand, struggle every day with anxiety, with depression, with suicidal thoughts. But we [00:21:30] know that when they see somebody in legitimate positions of power around them, they are reassured. They feel validated. They feel worthy. They feel they can aspire to something in the future. So every queer out elected politician in the newspaper on television is life affirming and to many millions of kids, that is life changing. And in many cases, that is life saving. [00:22:00] Because you see yourself as an authentic, real, legitimate person member of humanity, and you see a pathway out of the difficulties that was Peter and before that, Sarah McBride and then between me and and then I got out of the way again, and we got time for one more question. Gareth, We're talking about talking to Gareth Watkins about Pride and Z, the Rainbow Archive Audio archive That's um, now got recognition of the US Library [00:22:30] of Congress. I'm not surprised. Uh, Gareth, where do you want the archive to go? In the future? My big thing is one to have the voices, um, preserved for as long as possible. And, uh, technology is is is an amazing friend because it's allowed us to to to put the archive out into the world, But it's also very vulnerable. I mean, hard drives, crash websites go down. Um, whatever. So it's actually [00:23:00] I mean, this library of Congress, um, initiative is fantastic and is amazing. I just heard today as well that the National Library is also archiving the website, which is again really fantastic here in New Zealand. Um, the other things I'd like to see are that, um, individuals groups record their own histories and and share them and tell them in ways that are meaningful to themselves. So it's not about a centralised place collecting stories, but it's actually, [00:23:30] um however, you feel that you want to impart your history, your knowledge? Um, your voice, what do you want to leave behind? Um, whether it's through an artwork, whether it's whether it's through a, um whatever um is to encourage people to tell their own stories. Gareth, you've got as I said, Great. Here is you're a fantastic sound engineer. Where do people get the equipment? Does it matter? No. The the heart matters, [00:24:00] Um, whether it's on an iPhone, whether it's on a professional recorder, whether it's through a zoom recording, it's It's what's in your heart. That's that's what matters. Gareth. It's been lovely having you in. And thanks for bringing all that archival material as well, Thank you so much. And now I feel like I'm gonna do a normal Desmond moment, right? We'll move on to a song so you can do that with the microphones off. That's Gareth Watkins from Pride NZ Fantastic Audio Archive of New Zealand's Rainbow [00:24:30] Community. It's just got recognition by the US Library of Congress.

IRN: 3441
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/conversion_practices_prohibition_parliamentary_proceedings_5_august_2021.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004625
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089919
TITLE: Parliament: first reading of the Conversion Practices Prohibition Legislation Bill
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Adrian Rurawhe; Ayesha Verrall; Barbara Kuriger; Chlöe Swarbrick; Chris Penk; Elizabeth Kerekere; Glen Bennett; Kris Faafoi; Louisa Wall; Louise Upston; Marja Lubeck; Nicole McKee; Rawiri Waititi; Shanan Halbert; Simon Bridges; Trevor Mallard; Tāmati Coffey
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Adrian Rurawhe; Albert von Schrenck-Notzing; Amanda Ashley; Amsterdam; Andrew Little; Anne Frank; Aotearoa New Zealand; Ayesha Verrall; Barbara Kuriger; Big Gay Out (Auckland); Chlöe Swarbrick; Chris Penk; Civil Union Act (2004); Conversion Practices Prohibition Legislation Bill (2021); Counting Ourselves (survey, 2019); Criminal Records (Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences) Act 2018; Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT); Gender Minorities Aotearoa (GMA); Glen Bennett; God; Grant Robertson; HIV / AIDS; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Human Rights Act (1993); Human Rights Commission; InsideOUT Kōaro; Intersex Trust Aotearoa New Zealand (ITANZ); James Shaw; Katherine O'Regan; Keira Bell; Kris Faafoi; Louisa Wall; Louise Upston; Marja Lubeck; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); National Party; New Zealand Labour Party; New Zealand Young Labour; New Zealand Young Nationals; Nicole McKee; OUTLine NZ; Parihaka; Rainbow Labour Caucus; Rainbow Youth; Rawiri Waititi; Ringatū Church; Rodney Area Rainbow LGBTQ; Salvation Army; Shanan Halbert; Simon Bridges; Tabby Besley; Taranaki; Te Paati Māori; Tiriti o Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi; Trevor Mallard; Tāmati Coffey; Tūtānekai; Tūtānekai and Hinemoa; Tūtānekai and Tiki; United Kingdom; Wellington; Winston Peters; World Health Organization (WHO); World War 2; Young Greens of Aotearoa; Youth 19 Survey; abomination; abuse; advice; anti discrimination; attempted suicide; aversion therapy; belief; belief systems; cancel culture; census; consent; conversion / reparative therapy; conversion practices; corrective rape; courts; de-transition; disability; disability rights; exclusion; faith; family; family values; free speech; freedom; gender; gender affirming healthcare; gender diverse; gender expression; gender fluid; gender identity; gender-affirming surgery; hate; homophobia; homosexual; hormone blockers; hormone treatment; law; lesbian; liberation; marriage; marriage equality; medicalisation; mental health; misinformation; non-binary; parenting; parents; petition; petition against conversion therapy; puberty; puberty blockers; religion; salvationist; schizophrenia; self harm; sex characteristics; sexual identity; sexuality; shame; suicide; suicide prevention; takatāpui; teenage; testosterone (T); thought police; torture; trans; transgender; transition; transphobia; unconditional love; wairua; whānau; youth
DATE: 5 August 2021
YEAR: 2021
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I call on government. Order the day Number two conversion practises Prohibition legislation Bill, first reading the Honourable Chris. Mr. Speaker I legislative statement on the conversion practises Prohibition legislation. Bill, uh, that legislative statement is published. Uh, under the authority of the house can be found on the parliamentary website, and I will inform the house that no member has approached me, uh, indicating their preference for a personal vote. Honourable Chris. Mr. Speaker. Mr. [00:00:30] Speaker, I move that the conversion and practises prohibition legislation Bill, be now, read a first time, and I nominate the Justice Committee to consider the bill. Mr. Speaker, it is with great pride that I stand here to start the debate, Uh, on the conversion practises pro legislation bill, Uh, it gives effect to a Labour Party manifesto commitment at the last election, and I want to begin by acknowledging the LGBT Q I plus community, [00:01:00] uh, our own, uh, Rainbow Caucus, uh, Rainbow members of this parliament, uh, Rainbow labour, Uh, and also our young labour rainbow members who took a petition to parliament, I believe in 2018 as well as the young greens who were there also, uh, presenting that petition I was getting there. Mr. Speaker, um, if you look at, uh, clause three, Madam Speaker, if you look at Clause three of the bill, the purpose of this act is to prevent harm [00:01:30] caused by conversion practises and to promote respectful and open discussions regarding sexuality and gender. Uh, and it goes to a very fundamental right, uh, that we believe all New Zealanders have, uh, to decide who they are or to explore, uh, who they are. And it's been very clear over a long period of time that, uh, the gay community, uh and, [00:02:00] uh, those who are exploring their gender identity have suffered extreme harm, uh, at attempts to try and change their sexuality, uh, or their gender identity. That harm has manifested itself in mental health issues. Uh, relationship issues, uh, in some cases, uh, long term mental health issues. Uh, and in some unfortunately cases, uh, suicide attempts and suicide [00:02:30] itself. Madam Speaker, we want to make a very firm statement that conversion practises do not work. They cause harm for people who are going through the process of being who they are. And that is why this piece of legislation, uh, is before this house the kinds of conversion practises that we've seen, uh, historically. And we've heard from the engagement, uh, with [00:03:00] the community, have been, at the extreme end, the likes of electro convulsive therapy. Uh, and now they more commonly include the likes of practises claiming to be counselling or talk therapy and some faith based practises involving prayer, fasting and exorcism. Mr. Speaker, I know there will be a a debate during, uh, around the issues around re re religious groups in this, uh, first reading. And I want to acknowledge [00:03:30] the, uh, church leaders that we met last week, Uh, via Zoom, uh, who we gave an indication of the direction of this bill. They said to us that they that that on, uh uh by by and large, that they support the banning of conversion therapies. Um, but had some questions, uh, about the religious freedoms that they enjoy. And I hope since the time that we have spoken to them, uh, and them seeing the bill that they have seen that we have put in protections for the expression [00:04:00] of their religious principles and beliefs. Uh, and that is, uh, another important uh, protection of rights that we want to make sure that, uh is, uh, in this bill. Uh, Madam Speaker, I think everyone in this house, uh, has a story about someone that they know or love, Uh, who has had a difficult time, Uh, in coming out. I certainly have one of those. And, my friend, who I'm not gonna go into too much detail about came [00:04:30] out quite late in his life. Uh, and I cannot imagine some of the difficulties that people like him. Uh uh, him and others have gone through, uh, to be who they are. Uh, and this is why I think this is such a an important piece of legislation, uh, for the LGBTI Q community to make sure that they have that right. Uh uh. Protected, Uh, and that again, uh, we prevent the harm that [00:05:00] is caused in those communities. Uh, can I also acknowledge my colleague Maya Lube, uh, for the work that she has done, uh, in the previous parliament, uh, to, uh, put forward a member's bill on this issue. I'm sure she's very pleased, Uh, that we have got this to the stage, uh, to have this first reading. I know she will talk about, uh, a lady called Amanda Ashley, Uh, who was one of the, uh, champions of making sure that this kind of legislation, [00:05:30] uh, came through this house? Madam Speaker, Uh, in terms of a conversion practise itself as it is, uh, defined in the bill, it has to be targeted at someone because of their sexual orientation or their gender identity or gender expression. And it has to have the intent of changing or suppressing that gender identity or sexual orientation again. Uh uh. And, uh, depending on the circumstances, it has to be shown that there is harm or serious harm. Uh, then the police will do [00:06:00] what they normally do and gather an evidentiary base to make sure that they may have a case, uh, to a A against a person that may undertake a conversion practise. Then, Mr Madam Speaker, there is another protection in this bill for any court. Uh, any matter to go to court of the consent of the Attorney General to for a court case to proceed? Madam Speaker, we have deliberately, uh, [00:06:30] a, um designed this piece of legislation to make sure that it is only the serious cases that will ever make their way to a court, a court room. And there are also civil protections, uh, civil provisions within this bill, uh, to make sure that any issues, uh, that are not considered serious or criminal will be taken through the Human Rights Commission. Uh, and there are remedies there as well. Madam Speaker, uh, again, I would stress, uh, the [00:07:00] purpose of this bill, it is to prevent harm and to make sure we are encouraging those respectful and open discussions about people's sexual orientation. Uh, and, uh, their gender identity. Madam Speaker. At the announcement last week, we also said that we will take the select committee very seriously. We will watch those submissions. We will watch the submissions that, uh, and the tone of the submissions that are made by other political parties. Uh, and we will make this bill better [00:07:30] if we think we can. But the fundamental purpose of this bill, Madam Speaker, is to make sure we are preventing harm. Uh, in our community, when people are having their fundamental right of being who they are or exploring who they are, uh is being impacted again. uh, the the mental health impacts Long lasting mental health impacts, uh, have for far too long plagued our Rainbow community and Madam Speaker. It is well timed that these conversion practises [00:08:00] were banned speaker. I call on the Honourable Simon Bridges be speaker. National supports the core intention of the store. People should be free to be who they want to be and love who they want to. Love is one major sticking point, however, which means that although we want to be supportive, we are opposing this law until it is amended. It's [00:08:30] very clear in Chris interview on news talks. He'd be with yen and any plain reading of this bill that good parenting will be criminalised facing up to five years. It's exactly what it says up to five years imprisonment for being parents to Children under 18 [00:09:00] and the members opposite yell at me. But that's what Chris said on newstalk ZB, and it's wrong. Parents should be allowed to be parents and to explore sexuality and gender with their Children. But under this law, if a mom tells her 12 year old son or daughter before you go on puberty, blockers or other [00:09:30] hormone treatment. Wait till you're 18, that mom will be breaking the law. National believes there must be an exemption for parents. They're very angry on the other side, but I just want to address them quite clearly. The definition in Clause five is incredibly broad, and there is nowhere in this bill any exemption [00:10:00] for parents. It's important to note that this law is broaden the sexual orientation. It also covers gender identity and expression. This latter area is more complex than the former. It can involve medical interventions, blockers, hormones, surgery. These treatments are innovative and experimental. They are involve long term risks and consequences. And [00:10:30] in other countries and in other countries, there are growing numbers of young people who've become adults and regretted transitioning and seek to transition with mixed success. Do we really want the government intervening with the criminal law, five years in prison and conversations [00:11:00] and decisions about medical treatment and well-being that parents have and make with their Children? I don't think so, and I don't think actually the majority of Kiwi parents do, either. This bill lacks common sense. It's an ideological overreach. There must be an exemption for parents. I'm influence There are a lot [00:11:30] of in interjections in this house. May I remind members that they can take a call, and when they make their own call, they can express their views. I would like to hear this speech whether or not you agree with it. Please, can we have water in this house? Madam Speaker. I'm influenced by a signature case from a full bench. Three judges of the High Court of England and Wales of Kra Bell and the Tavistock Clinic that came out in December of last year. And I acknowledge [00:12:00] it's under appeal in the UK will be it. It is the current law of the land and that much more significant in terms of population a nation. It involved Kira Bell, 23 who wanted to transition female to male. Ms. Bell, age 16, went to the clinic and was quickly prescribed puberty, blockers and testosterone, and at 20 he had a double mastectomy. She's since, however, begun Det transitioning and says quote, it [00:12:30] was heartbreaking to realise I'd gone down the wrong path. I appreciate there will be many other experiences that are different to that, but that was hers. The other claimant in the court case was a Mrs a mother of 15 year old autistic girl awaiting treatment at the clinic, she said, Quote, my fear is not that she's transitioning. I say she gets it wrong, the mother said. It was quite frightening. There was so little exploration of why a child might be feeling [00:13:00] they were the wrong sex before puberty, blockers were given and the mum were representative claimants, arguing the clinic should have challenged the girls more over their decisions to transition to a male as teens, something very much against the spirit and the letter of the law, which is so called affirmation only rather than allowing genuine exploration, court held, [00:13:30] the court held, There are long term risks and consequences from the administration of puberty blockers, and the clinical intervention is being made and quote. Given that the treatment is as yet innovative and experimental, we recognise that clinicians may well regard these as cases with the authorization of the court should be sought. Prior to commencing the clinical treatment, the court decided under THIRTEENS were quite highly unlikely [00:14:00] to be able to consent to blockers at age 14 and 15, it was quote still doubtful and at 16 17, the courts should still decide. Yet under this law, in New Zealand's much smaller jurisdiction, it will be a criminal offence for parents to raise any concerns they'll only be able to affirm. And that is wrong. And I say, under the constant barracking from Grant Robertson that his government, [00:14:30] tragically in this term without the blockage of Mr Peters, New Zealand First Party, has done a fine line of coming to this house and saying one thing. That's motherhood and apple pie. And I accept the intent of this bill. But actually in the letter of the law, it does something quite different. I intend writing to Chris, but excuse me, far forward shortly. Give him the good [00:15:00] intention of this bill. National wants to work with him so we can support it. But regrettably, we cannot in good conscience while it criminalises parents for being parents while it intervenes in families with the criminal law over conversations and decisions about medical treatment that should be for them. We are opposing this bill until Chris [00:15:30] does the right thing. I call on honourable Doctor Ay, thank you, Madam Speaker. It is with great pride that I rise to take this call on this government bill to ban conversion therapy 35 years since ran Wild's Homosexual Law reform bill passed in 1986 17 years since the Labour government supported the civil unions bill into law in 2004, [00:16:00] eight years since my colleague Louisa Wall's Marriage Equality Amendment Bill passed in 2013 and today, this bill began its life as a member's bill my bill. But today it is here as a government bill because this Labour government is committed to creating a more inclusive and accepting New Zealand and being the best place in the world to be a child. [00:16:30] Conversion therapy is harmful to mental health. We know that the Rainbow community experiences worse. Mental health. University of Auckland research shows that same or multiple sex attracted people have higher rates of depressive symptoms, self harm and suicide attempts. The counting ourselves survey documents worse mental health for trans people living in aotearoa. Behind those statistics, [00:17:00] I think of the many friends that I know who have had those experiences. The friend who buried his boyfriend when he was in his thirties, the girlfriends who bounced in and out of mental health wards. People subjected to conversion therapy have worse mental health outcomes. A paper in the American Journal of Public Health suggests twice the odds of experiencing suicidal ideation 75% higher risk [00:17:30] of planning a suicide attempt. Not long ago, on July the eighth, we came together in this house to debate the 00 suicide. Members on both sides of the house were united in their concern about suicide. Just a month ago, we heard from the opposite act. We heard from the opposition about how concerned they were about these issues and here with an opportunity to [00:18:00] do something about it. They are voting against a very practical measure that would make a difference to many New Zealanders. I listened to Mr Bridges comments. He didn't really talk about conversion therapy at all. I will talk about conversion therapy. I don't want to talk about the mental health consequences of conversion therapy anymore because it seems to me to miss the point. The point [00:18:30] of, uh, the problem with conversion therapy is just how awful. The practise itself is all people that particularly young people want to belong. Young people are forming their identity. Naturally, they want to be accepted. Conversion therapy is about trying to erase someone's identity. It is about saying that part [00:19:00] of you is defective and we want to root it out. Conversion therapy is coercive because behind conversion therapy is a threat of exclusion. This part of you is wrong and you don't belong. If we did this to a prisoner, we would call it abuse or torture. It is a threat of being banished, of being cast out of society. Lots [00:19:30] of people complain about being cancelled over trivial matters and disagreements. But conversion therapy is actually cancelling someone. Imagine being the young person in that position. It must be traumatic, and it is totally unjustifiable. Does anyone in this House think conversion therapy is a good idea? A lot of members opposite can't look up right now. Does [00:20:00] anyone think it's a good idea? If it's not a good idea, then you, uh, the opposition has the opportunity to support this bill, uh, to select committee to address their technical objections. But they chose not to take that to fear manger about parts or about items that are not at all in the bill conversion therapy is a sick and bizarre practise, and what is unbelievable [00:20:30] is that these practises are called therapy. What a misappropriation of the word therapy it causes hurt, not healing. To believe conversion therapy is therapy. You have to believe that being gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender is a disease. It is something wrong in need of fixing. And the charlatans that engage in this practise use the language of medicine [00:21:00] to bolster their false authority. That's why it's so important that medical, psychiatric and psychological authorities around the world have condemned the practise. I wonder what Doctor Reti thinks. I wonder what mental health advocate Matt Dose thinks the rainbow community has long fought homophobia. We have done this by asserting our rights [00:21:30] by being visible. The primary way we do this is with pride. By being proud and refusing to be ashamed. The Rainbow Community has progressed progressive law reform in New Zealand to ensure that our rights are upheld and the Rainbow community has called for this bill to be passed Today. I am very proud to be a member of New Zealand's Rainbow community, and I am proud to be a labour MP supporting [00:22:00] this bill. All our young people should grow up with a sense of pride in themselves. Conversion therapy is monstrous. It is not therapy. It is hate. Madam Speaker, I can, uh, commend this bill to the house. Yeah, so I call [00:22:30] on Honourable Louise Upton. Thank you, Madam Speaker. It's probably about 95% of what, um, the former speaker said that I completely agree with and I think one of the challenges when we are in Parliament we are actually debating what is in the bill as opposed to what the intent of the original bill was. And I think that's a big part of, um, the frustration for the national Party because absolutely, [00:23:00] we condemn conversion therapy. We condemn abusive practises that prevent someone from being who they are and from loving who they choose to love. And I want to make it very clear that the National Party wants to support the bill. But the issue that was raised [00:23:30] and that the Minister has not been able to answer is the question of the prosecution of parents. So that was asked of the Minister. And he hasn't been able to answer that simple question. So So the reality is for the National Party. We absolutely support the intent of it. But to be responsible parliamentarians we must look at what does the bill actually [00:24:00] say and do so we implore. We implore the government to fix the problem. We implore the government to fix the problem and not create new ones. Our primary concern is the exposure of parents to prosecution. [00:24:30] And I would have thought members opposite would also be concerned about that about that concern. And that's why we have very clearly and simply asked for, uh, an exemption for parents. And I'm I'm really hopeful, uh, that during the select committee process that the members opposite you know, and and and I take the minister's point he he he extended the branch, uh, to listen to what opposition [00:25:00] parties were contributing to take them on board to consider them. Because II I can speak very confidently and that the National Party wants to have a bill that we can support. We want to have a bill that can be unanimous, unanimously passed through this parliament and the sticking point. This I just the sticking point is about parents, [00:25:30] so let's just explore this a bit further because in listening to family members to to listening to family members listening to young people, uh, listening to those who have been through the very sorts of things that the previous speaker expressed, I think it's really important that we consider that [00:26:00] and you consider the sensitive years before the age of 18, when it's challenging for any young New Zealander anyway, add to that add to that sexual orientation or gender identity. And I want people to consider young people doing that in complete isolation of their family. [00:26:30] And I think that would be a derogation of responsibility for us to in any way, shape or form, create a path that young people would do that on their own. Or parents would feel concerned about what they might say or what they might do, and that that might lead to a criminal prosecution. [00:27:00] So, you know, we've we've asked the question. The minister hasn't been able to clearly state that parents Well, yeah, I'm asking. This is this is a government bill. This is the Minister. The question has been asked, and that's not that's not how we see it. So there is no exemption? No, this is not about politics. This is absolutely not. Do not do not put words in my mouth. [00:27:30] So experts Madam Speaker say that research shows that how parents respond can be fundamental to their Children's mental health and well-being now and in the future. We want parents to lean in at this time in a young person's life and not and not lean out. So don't I implore the government [00:28:00] to consider a parental exemption so that no parent and no young person is in a situation where they are concerned about this type of engagement? We want to have open conversations with our teenagers. We want to walk alongside them. We want to offer advice. In many instances, they won't take that advice, and that's fine. But we are talking here about medical procedures. Are you seriously saying, [00:28:30] as a parent, when a young person under the age of 18 is considering a medical procedure that you as a parent, you as a parent, shouldn't engage, support, provide advice, get external advice? Obviously not so that so? The Labour government members are basically saying the state should have more say over your family than parents? That's exactly it, that is the crux of it. [00:29:00] So make the parental exemption. Make the parental exemption because this is, well, that's the minister hasn't said that explicitly. That's not the the expectation of what's in the bill. And that's what we want to see explicit explicitly as a parental exemption so young people should be able to seek advice. Young people should be able to seek advice of their families as well as others, and we don't want [00:29:30] them excluded or criminalised, which is completely what is in the bill. As written. It's a complete deviation was originally considered, and I invite the member to come back to the bill. I'm on the bill. So as the minister said, Yeah, they they they clearly don't care. They clearly don't care about parents. Um, because that's at the crux of this issue. We're talking about young people [00:30:00] 18 and under and medical procedures that this bill does not protect. So that is our concern. We're happy to draw a line in the sand on that issue and that issue alone and I will say again, I'll say again So there is no shadow of doubt. National wants to support this bill. We are poor conversion therapy and anything that harms [00:30:30] or abuses or creates issues for any New Zealander to choose who they are to be who they are and to love who they choose. So that's our contribution. I'd like to think that the other side's listening. They're clearly not. I'd like to see when the bill progresses that there is clarity and a parental exemption because no young person and no parent should have this hanging over them. IS leave [00:31:00] of the house, Madam Speaker to table a document I seek leave of the house to table the document The conversion practises Prohibition Legislation Bill because it appears the opposition has not read it. I seek leave of the house that that document be tabled, not a point of order. That's not a point of order. Are you seeking a point of order? That's a public document. [00:31:30] Next point of order. Nicole McKee. I'm finding it extremely difficult to hear, and I would be appreciative of the noise, as the as Mr Speaker had been talking about during question time be kept at a level where we can all hear the contributions, please, that are being made. I absolutely agree. I would like this house to be in order. I would like the members of this house to be respectful of each other. I [00:32:00] realise that we don't always agree, especially on this bill. But can we please be respectful of each other? I call a Madam speaker. On this day in 1944 Anne Frank and her family were arrested after more than two years in their secret hiding place in Amsterdam. Now one might think, What does that have to do with this conversion practises Prohibition legislation bill? Well, the link is clear. The issues that got [00:32:30] Anne Frank and her family arrested and ultimately killed are still relevant today. We need to ensure we protect one another and particularly our against dangers of prejudice, discrimination and intimidation. Honourable Grant Robertson said this at the unveiling of the Anne Frank Memorial in June this year. Every single day we see elements of discrimination and hatred around us. We see the elements of [00:33:00] exclusion, of putting people outside and making them the other. So every single day it is our job to call that out to say this is not acceptable to strive to build the world that Anne Frank talked about a world of hope, of courage, of beauty. No Madam Speaker aotearoa New Zealand is a country that values and accepts our rainbow community without the need to be convicted [00:33:30] to subjected to any kind of conversion therapies. Because firstly, there's nothing wrong with anyone having a diverse sexual orientation or gender identity. But also the premise that somehow this can be changed is, of course, absolutely untrue. There's no scientific nor medical evidence to support the use of conversion therapies, and we heard my colleague Minister Vall, talk very eloquently on that. The practise is widely condemned as being against the code of ethics [00:34:00] ethics that's done by the medical profession and many psychological associations across the world as well as in our own country. So called conversion therapy is not only just something that doesn't work, it's actually shown to be incredibly harmful. And some of the speeches have pointed that out, trying to convert someone by making them believe that due to their sexuality or gender identity, there's something wrong with them that requires changing can cause severe adverse mental [00:34:30] health effects, claiming to be able to cure homosexuality as if it is a mental illness or some kind of behavioural problem and giving people false hope at a time when they are struggling about who they are, is harmful and can be fatal for members of the Rainbow community who are already vulnerable and five times more at risk of mental health issues and harm. What we need to really do is fate, our identity, and tell them that who they are is the right [00:35:00] thing. Everybody is free to be themselves. It brings me back to something that Carl McDonald said in one of the interviews I held about this topic, he talked about validation and how important it is. He said that one of the cornerstones of any psychotherapy is the idea that it's only through acceptance of ourselves. The bits we like and even more challenging. The bits we don't like comes through health. Now we like to celebrate our country's diversity, but we still have to work to [00:35:30] strengthen New Zealand society. And when we talk about people who've suffered, what we fail to acknowledge is that we live in a society that is infused with homophobia, so the need for love and acceptance will push anyone to try and conform to the norm. The previous speaker showed that she didn't read the bill because nothing in this bill shows that talking to your Children falls under a definition of conversion practises [00:36:00] and if you want to have it improved, supported to select committee. But not doing so will not give us an opportunity to, for example, hear the survivor stories and they will tell us the crucial things that we need to hear. There are many harrowing stories from survivors of conversion therapy, and this also includes, for example, the story of the young woman who told the story of the time her mum had suggested a little deliverance, a practise where a minister would pray over for [00:36:30] her to free her from the demon demonic forces. She said that looking back, it was clear that I was desperate to have connection and love from my parents, and I would do anything to get it. But when the demons didn't budge and she walked out feeling ashamed for who she was, how can that be healthy? How can we allow any kind of messaging that tells people that tells our there's something wrong with them and they need to be fixed. So one of the questions I hear most frequently [00:37:00] is, well, is it actually really happening in New Zealand? I first heard about conversion therapy when I watched a TV NZ Sunday documentary in 2018. The phrase in that programme was that it was surprisingly easy to find places that would offer it. And I was shocked to think that in this day and age and in this country, I tell New Zealand diversion inclusion, it would still be happening. But it was and um, for many, many messages I received that's [00:37:30] clear that others felt that way as well. From Barbara, I'm a mental health registered nurse and I was shocked to hear it's still legal in New Zealand. I've seen the damage caused to people who are told what they feel is not natural, and I have tried to change their sexuality. It can cause irreparable harm from Deborah because of its unspoken prevalence in New Zealand. I have friends who struggle to find who they where they can find physical and or mental health care without being subjected to attempts to change who they are. [00:38:00] Banning the practise would make it far easier for them to access safe healthcare. Now it was a great privilege when I was asked to accept a petition to Ben Conversion Therapy, Young Labour and young greens, together with Rodney Rainbow collected more than 20,000 signatures between them. And so I became part of the of this current bill. And here I would like as the minister, rightly for Shadow. I'd like to acknowledge Amanda Ashley, a transgender activist from Rodney Rainbow. When we first [00:38:30] met her petition had 1500 signatures. She would send me messages over the following weeks, excited that the petition got up to 2000 signatures and then 3000. And then when the petition closed three years ago to this date almost 7 August 2018, it had a total of 5157 signatures on it. She was so proud and altogether. Those signatures are on the petitions to total more than 20,000 long story short. As a result, my member's bill went into the ballot because I had the support [00:39:00] of my party for a bill that would outlaw conversion therapy, Thank you to then Justice Minister Honourable Andrew Little for the continued support on the issue. Um Labour then made part of the 2020 manifesto. And what we're doing now delivers on the on that particular commitment. Thank you to honourable Chris for shepherding this bill through the house. It's an FU to uphold the human rights of all New Zealanders to live free from discrimination and harm. So it is all started with a petition, and Amanda Ashley will be [00:39:30] remembered as an important part of this. But sadly, Amanda took her own life. In 2018. She will be remembered as a beautiful, sensitive sweetheart of a lady and a strong activist. Madam Speaker, I have been blessed to have the privilege to be part of this and to have received such a warm welcome from the rainbow community. And while I've got your attention, um, I might as well clear this up. Paul, I'm sorry for the initial initial confusion. [00:40:00] It has now been cleared up that I'm in fact not a lesbian. But that despite the fact that you know that now, thank you for not treating me any different and still accepting me for who I am. At no stage have I ever felt any discrimination for identifying as heterosexual Madam Speaker. I've met many committed advocates for rainbow issues and I want to do the following shout outs for the support they have given me. This is by no means an exhaustive list, but there are people and organisations that have given me [00:40:30] support that I've been in contact with and I've learned from. So here we go. Mitch for his relentless research and optimism. My formidable Labour Rainbow Caucus colleagues, members of Rainbow Labour, Paul Stevens, the chair members of CTE Nahan, Mel McDonald, Jim, Jerry and Ted Princes Street Labour, Rainbow youth Young, young Labour, Young greens, Young Nets outline a McArdle Inner city ST Peters on Willis Inside [00:41:00] out There are many more other champions for the rainbow community, too many to mention, but one shout out to Diane Sparks in or advocating for the rights of the Rainbow community. I want to finish with a message from a survivor because survivor stories are crucial to actually try and get a glimpse of what harm intolerance, exclusion, discrimination and prejudice can do to a person. I always knew my sexuality was a problem, but when you see your entire community chanting hate, that's terrifying [00:41:30] spiritual abuse causes trauma and trauma doesn't always go away. When people say sorry, many people don't make it through conversion therapy. It's not an unusual story. Conversion practises simply have no place in our country. But we currently have no legislation. That makes it an offence. Let's show the compassion and inclusiveness that are in line with New Zealand's values. It this bill sends a clear message We won't stand by and allow this behaviour to continue. It says we love you. [00:42:00] We accept you for who you are, and we will do everything in our power to protect you. I commend this bill to the house, so yeah, I call on Doctor Elizabeth. It is with great pleasure. [00:42:30] I stand to speak on behalf of the Green Party on this. Um, uh, also, they acknowledge the staff here, the staff of the ministry and the Human Rights Commission who have all worked so hard to make this happen. And, of course, all of our community leaders who largely volunteer yet again are available for consultation and advice. Uh, [00:43:00] I also want to acknowledge the young greens, the young labour and young nets who I also had the opportunity to meet with through this process. In February, we launched our Maori priorities at Waitangi, and we identified rights as a treaty issue. And we did this because we understand a colonial history that brought missionaries to our country, who immediately told us our enjoyment of sex was wrong. [00:43:30] Uh, that any kind of sexual fluidity was wrong. Uh, any fluidity and gender identity was wrong, along with trying to take away all of our language, all of our land, all of our resources. They also tried to steal that story and from us. The fact that we are here today and every time that I get to use the word in this house says that all of us since then continue to honour [00:44:00] all of them. A week after Waitangi, we launched a petition at Big Gay out. We had a huge massive response from this country. Nearly 100 and 60,000 people signed the petition within a week. Many people did not know that this still existed in our country. Uh, and it was people across the political spectrum. I got letters from people [00:44:30] saying we signed your petition, but we want you to know we do not like the greens otherwise, and I just reply back, going killed her. Probably. I want to point out that that petition was the largest verified petition ever held in this country. Because on the record, the two unverified petitions are the two that were presented for the homosexual law reform. I'm very, very [00:45:00] proud that our country and this parliament is a place where we can present the real views of actual real people. The hard thing about when this topic comes up, of course, is all of the letters we received from survivors from here and from around the world who were so pleased we were doing this work in our parliament. And others have acknowledged [00:45:30] there are those who are still surviving and living amongst our communities and dealing with the harm and the emotional impact that has had on their whole life. But of course, we have lost so many, so many, even within the last few years who have felt that they could not go on in the environment of this country. And I want to reiterate in terms of if we're looking right back to colonisation. [00:46:00] This is hundreds of years of discrimination against our community. And conversion therapy is only one topic of the special ways that people have tried to harm Rainbow communities. It was the original, those original missionaries, those original churches that set up really started conversion therapy. And [00:46:30] over the years, over the decades, it's been refined to an art. However, after and years after homosexual law reform, which was led by most of the mainstream, the protest was led by most of the mainstream churches of this country. Many of those churches would now look back in horror at what was done. Some of them have apologised for their part in it and would have no truck with it. We have only to look at what are the, uh, particular types [00:47:00] of churches who are still offering this service as they like to see and think of it to see how much further we still have to go in this country. For me, an important part of this whole is it's our spirituality. It is my belief that our drive to be who we are, our sexuality, our gender is part of our our spirituality [00:47:30] that comes to us from our ancestors from our gods, the way that we experience them for. We know that our sexuality and our cultural connection is as important to us as our sexuality as our gender identity as our sex characteristics. The real issue around conversion therapies is a It's not good to tell someone that who they are is wrong ever in [00:48:00] any context. What it does, though, is it takes something else that is a part of someone their commitment to their religion, their spirituality, the way they experience that and uses that against another part of themselves. That is the thing that our mental health system currently is nowhere close to being set up to help resolve a shout out to groups like Outline, like all of the leading groups and within our [00:48:30] rainbow communities. Uh, I tens gender minorities, uh, inside out Rainbow youth, Of course. Uh, it's left to the community to try and untangle those things. Those hurts and try and give healing. Others have taught about the the many lives we have lost. We don't have exact data on conversion therapies. We know that in the county and ourselves research, [00:49:00] uh, they had some figures that were particularly for trans and non-binary people, but we don't have a true picture, and I think that somewhere along the line some funding needs to be allocated to actually doing that proper research. The main thing I want to finish on is about because the one thing I do agree with our national colleagues here is that should be able to make good decisions on behalf of their Children. Uh, [00:49:30] and so to hold up this going on inside, young people experienced they talked about their fears about talking about who they were and talking to their, They said they experienced embarrassment, fear, isolation, guilt, depression, anger and hopelessness. The themselves weren't dealing well with their child coming out or wanting to transition. They talked about also shock and embarrassment denial, a justified fear [00:50:00] for their child's safety. They had grief over the of the future they had seen for their child had disappeared. Now, an inclusive society that would be looked after they would be wrapped around with support. They would have people. Those young people could go and talk to other young people and say What is going on for them? Those could have people with good quality information that would say this is what's happening together that [00:50:30] could move forward and make decisions about whatever types of, uh, groups they might want to join, uh, ways that they could work inside their churches and places of worship. Uh, they could make make some sorts of arrangements around surgical, uh, health care, and they would do that as a They would make those decisions together with clarity, uh, based on knowing that [00:51:00] what was most important was being able to uphold the mana of who someone was and that as the parents, the of this child, this young person, this adult, even, uh that they would help make that together. That is not the world we live in. So do we want to criminalise? Of course not. Do we want to put an entire congregation who all colluded in the conversion therapy of members of the congregation? Of course not. Do we want to see put things put in place, [00:51:30] though, where people are held accountable for their actions? Absolutely, absolutely. Do people who have had this happen to them deserve some justice? Should we get more to a point where those congregations decide to learn from their mistakes that they apologise for the harm they have caused, and they beg forgiveness from their God and their communities for what they have done. We can pass this through and [00:52:00] we will. It's happening. People let us put Make sure it includes all people. This happens to I want to do a final shout out for people with disabilities. That's not just Rainbow communities, Kilda. Um, order. I call [00:52:30] Nicole McKee. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I firstly seek leave of the house to congratulate Lisa Carrington on winning a further gold medal, making her New Zealand's most successful Olympian. Yeah, Mr Speaker, I stand to speak on the conversion practises Prohibition legislation Bill and I commend the intent of the minister to stop a practise that has been so detrimental to many lives. We cannot deny some [00:53:00] of the horror stories that we've heard about conversion therapy treatments occurring both here and around the world, events that have left detrimental effects on those receiving it. Some have described it as a pseudo scientific technique attempting to change or suppress someone through shaming emotional manipulation or through physical trauma. We have heard in this house, in the media and through [00:53:30] accounts of those with lived experience how their psychological, social, emotional and often spiritual needs have been destroyed by conversion therapy. The LGBT Q i community speak of the harm some of the practises cause and the suicidal thoughts that often follow, along with the ongoing mental health issues that can result from conversion therapy. [00:54:00] I note also that the Salvation Army state that they do not support conversion therapy and have released a guideline for salvation on the topic. They have recommended a list of practical responses, one of which says, and I quote in response to the question, then what do I do if someone wrestling with their sexual identity wants prayer? Salvation is are encouraged to help people explore their identity, for instance, by praying that [00:54:30] God will affirm their authentic identity and speak into their search for who they were made to be, or by pastorally exploring what it is that has led them to conclude that they may need to change. Salvation will not pray for a specific outcome with regard to someone's sexuality. So on the face of it and with what we believe to be an understanding of the intent of the bill, we want to support this and [00:55:00] we will do so through the first reading. You see one of Act Party's first principles is that all people should be owners of their own lives that we must be free to act according to their own judgments, so long as they accept and respect the like freedom of others. We want adults to feel comfortable in their own skin, be respected for the choices that they make about themselves [00:55:30] and not experience harm because others don't agree with those choices. However, we do have some major concerns about some of the causes in this bill, and unless we can get some clarity around raised issues at the select committee, we simply could not continue to support it. We have concerns around the effect the bill may have on families and the discussions [00:56:00] that would often occur in the home. When a young family initiates or raises the topic of their sexuality, identity or gender choice, Could a parent's initial reaction when not physically harmful, actually cause the parent to be prosecuted if they're not supportive of the child? The minister has said it's not cool with parents being prosecuted for preventing their child from taking hormone blockers, but without clarity in [00:56:30] the bill. The scenario can most certainly happen without clarity. Mr Speaker. We are left with the regulatory impact statement comment, which actually states quote. It would be a criminal offence for parents or other members of a family to attempt to change or suppress the sexual orientation, gender identity or expression of Children within the family end. Quote further to this Mr Speaker. If the family wanted to seek [00:57:00] religious guidance and they were, say, salvation, they won't get that advice. They would not even get prayer. And why is this Mr Speaker? Well, the regulatory impact statement says, And I quote conversion practises that take the form of prayer and counselling that are directed towards an individual would be captured by the preferred option. And, of course, we are now dealing with this the preferred option. We recognise [00:57:30] the accusations that some religious conversion therapies are a big part of the problem, but we need to find the line between criminal actions and the ability to converse, And the job of the Select committee will be to determine if those lines have been drawn in the right place. And at the moment, Mr Mr Speaker We don't believe that they have concerns, Mr Speaker is that the bill in its current [00:58:00] format doesn't just step on parents and religion. It actually stomps on it, and the government would be interfering and legislating what can be said in the home, how a family is to deal with an issue and removes their ability to seek religious guidance. We note that the purpose of this bill, as stated in Section three B, is to promote respectful and open discussions regarding sexuality [00:58:30] and gender and act agrees with this purpose, but believes that the interpretation of conversion practise in Section five does not achieve that purpose and, if implemented, will in fact achieve the opposite. Further to this, in Clause five, there is a statement at 52 F that expression only of a religious principle or belief that is not intended [00:59:00] to change or suppress the individual sexual orientation, gender identity or gender expression would be excluded from prosecution so you can speak to the principle of a religious belief, but not if it is intended to change the mind of the individual. Yet we would argue that most religious principles and beliefs would actually speak against a change in sexual identity and therefore makes understanding what can be spoken about and [00:59:30] what cannot ambiguous. It's rather Orwellian, Mr Speaker. We believe that this bill, in its current format only allows freedom of expression to run one way, and that those that have differing views will be in fear of prosecution for expressing them. Another of acts Founding principles is based on freedom of expression in a free society. This must be promoted, [01:00:00] protected and preserved without restriction, other than for incitement, criminal nuisance or defamation. Those that seek conversion advice that question their identity should be able to do so freely. And those who whose advice has been sought should be able to give their advice just as freely. Without fear of prosecution. It simply must run both ways, [01:00:30] Mr Speaker. This then leads me to our concerns about consent. The Human Rights Act provision appears to be inconsistent with the Crimes Act prohibition, which appears to focus on causing real harm to someone and lack of consent. The Human Rights Act provision requires neither of these elements to be present. Therefore, there is a question as to whether someone is freely consenting and should they be able to engage in such a practise. [01:01:00] Mr. Speaker at most certainly believes that there are some conversion therapy practise practises that must absolutely be stopped, and we wholeheartedly support this government in this. However, with such a wide scope around the interpretation of conversion practise, interfering with families and religion with confusion around civil liberties versus criminal conduct, freedom of expression only [01:01:30] allowed one way. One might think that the thought police are only but one legislative instrument away. The Act Party supports this bill through its final through its first reading, Mr Speaker, and we hope that through the select committee process, the concerns we have raised can be satisfactorily addressed. Therefore, we support this bill to select committee members. This is a split call I call five minutes, [01:02:00] [01:02:30] [01:03:00] [01:03:30] you see loved and he said to I am stricken with love for my friend for the missionary, William Williams in 18 84 translated the words as an intimate companion of the same sex. Naturally, there are some back home that dispute that translation and also the nature of that relationship, too. Uh, for [01:04:00] some, it's a little bit uncomfortable that a chief from our, uh, may have just enjoyed a homosexual relationship prior to his marriage. I say if it's OK for the Greeks, it's OK for us. That said, uh, the word. Taku has become a commonly used term and it's experiencing a renaissance within the Maori rainbow community and I say rightfully so. My point, Mr Speaker, is that Maori have our own stories about [01:04:30] sexuality that predate the arrival of Europeans and the arrival of the Bible and also those who interpret it, which has done considerable damage to the rainbow community, causing considerable harm. Colonisation reached our cultural norms, reached into our cultural norms about what constituted both positive and negative relationships. And as we become more aware, we must also challenge those colonial heterosexual assumptions that have been normalised [01:05:00] around us and central to that is the assumption that if you aren't heterosexual, then there must be ways to fix you. The government's intention in this bill, which I support wholeheartedly and prohibiting conversion practises, are a to affirm the dignity of all people and that no sexual orientation or gender identity is broken and in need of fixing two. To prevent the harm conversion practises [01:05:30] cause in New Zealand and to provide an avenue for redress. Three. To uphold the human rights of all New Zealanders, including of Rainbow New Zealanders, to live free from discrimination and from harm. This bill will provide penalties to those who continue to use conversion practises and provide survivors with an with avenues for redress. But I do have a concern. The criminalization of conversion practises may just result in a change in how they're presented [01:06:00] or how they're framed, how they're performed the way that practises are described may become more subtle, for example, through references to exploring sexuality rather than changing it and on spiritual healing and development. Conversion practises have had very low public visibility now, so the prohibition will have little effect in that regard. But it is important to remember, uh, that, however conversion practises are presented, survivors will now have recourse to the laws to lay complaints, [01:06:30] both criminal and civil. In my twenties, I wasn't able to get married. The civil unions bill came in and made things a little more normal. In my thirties, I was able to finally get married in, uh, again, the law changed, uh, thank you to my colleague on my left in my forties. I hope to oversee the banning of conversion therapy and hope for considerably better conditions for rainbow couples wanting to embark on parenthood. I look forward to being part of that change. [01:07:00] Um, I call or, as would say, I am proud to be, uh, I have some evidence from the United States about how damaging, uh, conversion therapy conversion practises are so of the young people who experience conversion therapy [01:07:30] who attempted suicide in 2020 28% of the young people who went through conversion therapy, experience, suicide, no experience of conversion therapy, 12%. So it's harmful. I want us to be really clear about what conversion therapy is. Con conversion therapy, uh, started in 18 99 by a German psych, uh, psychiatrist. I won't go into his name, but essentially, uh, the proposition [01:08:00] at that time was that being gay was a disease, and it must be cured. And what they did, or what he purported to do is turn gay straight by hypnosis and also trips to the brothel. Why? Because at that time, we were seen as sinful as deviant as criminals. Uh, and so obviously that religious overlay uh, in our lives, without clear scientific evidence was the prevailing doctrine, which is why it was called [01:08:30] a therapy in the 19 twenties. They actually performed test testicle transplants to remove testicles from gay men and give them I mean, it is torture. Absolutely. Uh, the majority again said of clinicians said being gay was a disease so we could experience electroconvulsive therapy, lobotomies, shock treatment, porn and brothels. Uh, and, uh, later, uh, it became a version [01:09:00] therapy where homosexual men, uh, had to watch porn and the shock therapy was through their penises. Because if you, uh, were disgusted by homosexuality, then obviously you would be cured and you would lead a normal life. In 1973. This all changed with the American Psychiatric Association who deemed conversion practises as harmful, and there was no scientific evidence [01:09:30] that they worked. So the reality of today these practises are still happening. Except they happen in camps, Christian camps. Uh, they happen through prayer vigils. They happen through talk therapy. They happen through exorcisms. Uh, and for women, they include corrective rape. That is what conversion therapy is, which is why we want to ban it. It's apparent it's disgusting. [01:10:00] It's a relic of of, uh, historical, uh, positioning about LGBTI, Q plus peoples Somehow being wrong, we are not wrong. We are born exactly as we're meant to be and we deserve the protection of the state. There were what conversion therapy is not. And I want to reference the Royal, Australasian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists. They actually have a position statement on, uh, sexual orientation [01:10:30] change efforts. They do not support the use of sexual orientation. Orientation change efforts of any kind. There is no scientific evidence that sexual orientation can be changed. Sexual orientation change efforts risk causing significant harm to individuals. What they're really clear about, however, is that sexual orientation change efforts does not refer to those undergoing gender affirmation, therapy or management. [01:11:00] And herein lies the relevance to Section 52 B of this piece of legislation which says conversion practise does not include assisting an individual who is undergoing or considering undergoing a gender transition. So people who are worried about parents being criminalised because they stop their Children from receiving hormones that are prescribed by a clinician get real. It's not a real conversation. [01:11:30] It's misinformation and trying to create in the public panic that parents are gonna be criminalised. And I think it's an absolutely apparent position for anybody to take on this piece of legislation because, uh, at the heart of this is our Children and them knowing that they are perfect as they are, that they are loved and that we as a society will value them and not let any harm [01:12:00] happen to them in their exploration and their expression of who they are. I seriously say to the national Party, you are on the wrong side of history. This is bigger. Um, order, Uh, this is a split call order, please. Um can I just say to the members and, uh, people in the gallery, Uh, this is a debate for members [01:12:30] of the chamber. Uh, and we have members waiting to seek their call. And it's, um you know, II, I can understand a little bit of applause, but that's going on too long. You might have that opportunity at the end. I call Chris pen. Thank you, Mr Speaker, For the opportunity to speak to the conversion practises Prohibition legislation Bill. Um, so, uh, national speakers have already stated I think pretty clearly that we support the core original intent of the bill. Uh, namely that, uh, uh, practises [01:13:00] that are unwanted, uh, or coercive in their nature, Uh, and particularly with an element of physicality practises that we support and therefore in terms of the bill, uh, if the, uh if the issues that we've raised so far in which I just want to detail a bit further and this contribution can be addressed and we'll be pleased to be in a position we will be able to support the bill. So, um, that national position, sir, uh, uh relates to a couple of, uh, key, [01:13:30] uh, points, uh, one of which, uh, is in relation to, uh, the role of parents. Or more generally, of course, it's important to acknowledge, uh, different family arrangements that are possible indeed. Do prevail in, uh, a New Zealand, uh, in 2021. So in the, um, the the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act uh, advice to the Attorney General as tabled along with the bill. Uh, it does note, um, the, uh the fact that there is a possibility [01:14:00] of a Or rather, I might as well quote directly, sir. uh, quote potential chilling effect on legitimate expressions of opinion within families, uh, about sexuality and gender. End quote. So I think it's probably fair if I do acknowledge that that is under the heading in the view of the, uh, the officials who have provided the advice of justified limitation. And they do believe that there is a measure of consistency with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. Uh, for, uh, a few key reasons. Um, [01:14:30] I would, uh, potentially disagree with at least one of those, but, um, in the time available to me, so So I'll, um, not not dwell on that aspect, but I think it's a fair point. Uh, that the chilling effect, uh, is, uh, to be considered seriously, uh, alongside, uh, what is, uh, in the bill and what might be subject to interpretation by some members of the house, uh, differently from others. And, uh, by, you know, for example, individual, uh, police constables and so on Who might be asked to, uh, give a view In any individual case, Uh, the other one [01:15:00] is in relation to, uh, the fact that it's not possible to consent, uh, to, uh, these uh uh or or things that might be considered within the definition of practises. Uh, clause 10 of the bill is very clear in that regard, sir. Uh, it says that the practises, uh, specified it or other offences that, uh, clauses eight and nine. do not enjoy a defence, even if the individual who was receiving, uh, those practises consented to them. Obviously, the [01:15:30] concept of consent is pretty, uh, complex under the law. And I do acknowledge that, uh, consent that is seemingly given. But if subject to coercion or undue influence, uh, is is, uh, not real consent in itself. So again to do acknowledge the complexity of this not only as a theoretical matter and a matter of law but, of course, on the ground, uh, in in a person's home, for example, or any other context for that matter. So with those points having [01:16:00] been made, sir, and noting as well the, uh, point also made under the heading of freedom of expression and the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act vet again, the document to which I previously referred, uh, the, uh, document notes, uh, the potential for the broad definition of the practise, uh, to extend further beyond what they currently consider on their interpretation, uh, to be, uh, within the realm of justified limitation. So I think these are matters that, uh, can and should be [01:16:30] examined at the select committee process. And, of course, much has been said in this house, sir, about the fact that different parties in this parliament will have the opportunity to state their views in that process. But I think, more importantly, people, uh, throughout New Zealand who have been affected in different ways, uh, will have different views. Inevitably, uh, on the legislation will have the opportunity at that point. So, uh, that debate is to be welcomed. It's not to be shied away from. And I think that, um, all members of parliament, uh, should feel obliged to listen carefully to those, uh, comments [01:17:00] and the evidence that the select committee will hear. So, uh, my final comment, sir, uh, before the end of the allocated time is just in relation to the rule of law. More generally, of course, it's an aspect of our, uh, legal arrangements, and particularly where criminal justice is concerned. Particularly where, uh, we are saying that, uh a person must act in a certain way or not act in a certain way and the pain of imprisonment by the state, Uh, that it should be as clear as possible. Uh, that's an aspect of, uh, the bargain that struck [01:17:30] between the state and the citizen, whereby the citizen has to comply with laws. Uh, but the state is obliged to state clearly what they are. Uh, it seems to me that there is, uh, a considerable uncertainty in some of these aspects. And I think, with all due respect, we've seen that from, uh, the minister of, uh, justice when asked about key aspects, uh, in relation to the bill. So we look forward to hopefully, um, um I'm going to be on the right side of history [01:18:00] in this debate, and I will not wait for a valedictory speech to apologise to the rest of New Zealand. It is probably not often that politicians get up and admit in this house and freely that there is stuff they don't know. But I'm going to do that today. I have a lot of I have a lot to learn from our community as a straight man. Their experience is not my experience. It would be wrong to pretend that it is. [01:18:30] What I do know and they have always known is that end of story. No ifs, No buts. No, ma. I'm on a journey to deepen my understanding so I can support all of our as a political representative of and in this place our people always celebrated our diversity as they are Maori. [01:19:00] We each come with our own, our own upbringings and our own identities. But at the end of the day, we are all it was colonisation and the imposition of European ideas around gender and sexuality that started criminalising and oppressing people for being who they are turning us against our own. My language tells me this our language is non-binary. [01:19:30] We need to decolonize ourselves. And maybe we should put some kind of therapy law to start decolonizing ourselves and reaffirm the of our conversion Therapy is a direct attack on our that fails [01:20:00] to uphold our to be who we are and does not meet our aspirations of mana equality for all people. We will always support to be who they are and conversion therapy which tries to stop for being who they are has no place in a might be in New Zealand, but not a the party Maori wholeheartedly support and welcome this much needed overdue bill [01:20:30] in 2020 E our 2020 election campaign we committed in our policy manifesto to banning conversion therapy. We are the movement that leaves no one behind. But just as I recognise, I need to learn more. So do so do so does my So does our party? We humbly ask and to support us on this journey. I want to acknowledge the government for bringing forward this bill, but more importantly, [01:21:00] the leaders, advocates and allies of the Takata community who have pushed for so long to see this legislation of this kind before the house. Today is your day. I strongly believe that banning conversion therapy is a necessary step to addressing the larger issue of the dire state of our mental health system in a we know that young Maori Tata are one of the most at risk groups of mental illness, [01:21:30] self harm and suicide. Many of our mental health services are rooted in harmful colonial values that hurt our people, especially we oppose all of these backward colonial practises and ideas and laws and practises which cause our to feel shame and guilt for being who they are. We are looking forward to to to consider to consideration of this bill at select Committee, and I encourage [01:22:00] our community to make submissions and ensure your voices are heard in the process. It's important we make sure the wording of the legislation is right and the provisions are strong enough to keep our people safe. The successful passage of this bill through the house will put us one step closer to an where all of us feel empowered and liberated to be who [01:22:30] we truly are. As a minister of the Ring Church, I leave you with these three lines honour and glory to God, peace on Earth and goodwill to all mankind. Speaker I, Glenn Bennett, Mr Speaker, our grandmother God, creator of all things, [01:23:00] the lover of seekers and dreamers of the disrespected and the disillusioned of the worn out, burnt out, washed up lovers of the rejected the leavers and the grievers lovers of the Queens and the divas of the transgender gays and lesbians of the Intersect Non-binary and of our fabulous rainbow community in our moments of marginalisation, isolation and bigotry grant us the ability to act boldly along the road [01:23:30] to human liberation. Our gender, sexual orientation and faith beliefs do not define us. May our roads be one of freedom. Christ is freedom. May we know wholeness know our bodies and know you a Now I rise this afternoon as someone who is from the church [01:24:00] and as someone who is from the Rainbow community. And there have been moments in my upbringing in my life where I felt rejected from both of them. But today I stand here feeling affirmed, knowing I have a faith community behind me that loves, affirms and supports me. Now for many of us listening for many of us here today, we're not talking about theory. We're not talking about legislation. We're not [01:24:30] talking about an issue. I am not an issue. I am not in a shoe. I'm fabulous. I want to thank our Labour Party and our government on delivering on this manifesto. Promise? I want to thank our minister. I want to thank my lube and the work you've done. I want to thank our transgender and intersex who often feel left out of these conversations. [01:25:00] Thank you for being patient with us, this gay males and I want to thank all those who have gone before us both living and passed on now in my lifetime, a lot has happened. My two year old self back in 1977 was when finally the World Health Organisation chose [01:25:30] to declassify homosexuality and take it out of the international classifications of diseases. I was two in that same period here in New Zealand. My issue was seen as a mild form of schizophrenia. My nine year old self saw homosexual law reform pass in this house in this place. And I was part of a church [01:26:00] that was not affirming at that time. And I thank the member of act for talking about the Salvation Army who came out last week in support of this piece of legislation, which makes me so proud. My 18 year old self. Yeah, I you're figuring out how old I am now. I'm sure back in 1993 was when discrimination was banned. The discrimination sorry of sexual and gender expression was banned, and then my 29 year old self in 2004 saw in this house to see civil unions [01:26:30] passed. Then my 37 year old self back in 2013, saw Thank you, Lewis the wall and those for seeing marriage. Equality pass in this house. And I am so disappointed today to hear the the honourable Simon Bridges, the honourable Louise Upton, who both voted against marriage equality, standing up here, telling me that I'm still an issue and I'm still a problem. Where are the liberals from the National Party? Where is the support from the National Party? [01:27:00] Where is the leader of the National Party? Who said I might add that she opposes conversion therapy? I'm a parent, and I have to say to my son, and I hope other parents would also say this. Just be who you are. That's unconditional love, not trying to convert your child to anything else. The honourable Judith Collins. Then in 2017, my 41 year old self [01:27:30] saw the government apologise for men who have been convicted from from past acts of homosexual offending. And then February 2021 of this year, my 45 year old self got married in this place. This place is a place and has been a place of oppression. I see this in my maiden speech, but this place also is a place of liberation. [01:28:00] And I feel liberated to be part of this parliament of this government who makes transformational change for the sake of freedom and faith. Now, for me, I'm fortunate. I I didn't get too pressured into having conversion therapy when I was growing up in the church. I remember being scared and afraid. I remember going to a few healing services. I remember having hands laid on me, someone trying to force me to the ground as I was relieved from my evilness. [01:28:30] But I wasn't because there was nothing to release from me. And the Psalmist says that I was fearfully and wonderfully made. I was fearfully and wonderfully made. Now, today we are talking about this piece of legislation that is around protection. It's around to make sure that people are kept safe and the unhealthy practises, uh don't occur in our nation anymore. This bill is [01:29:00] about freedom, something that I know well, growing up in the church, I learned that the truth will set me free and I thank my God and my faith that I've been set free and I was able to be the man that I am today with the husband that I have now conversion practises through emotional harm. They do physical harm, they do social harm. And as the [01:29:30] member of the Green Party and also the Maori said, they do spiritual harm. And as a Christian, it grieves me to see the harm and the hurt that my faith has caused for centuries and centuries. And I experienced that. I felt like I was broken. I felt like I needed to be fixed. I heard words like [01:30:00] abomination. I am an abomination. I think that causes disgust and loathing. I am not an abomination. My God does not believe that I'm abomination. He loves me just the way I am. And I'm grateful that I found my faith, my true faith that is loved and knows [01:30:30] that he's beautifully and wonderfully made, and I also want to say thank you to the Salvation Army for coming out strongly in support of this piece of legislation. Like I said earlier as a nine year old as my church led a petition to stop the passing of homosexual law reform a church to align themselves with MP S from this house. Who told my who told us to [01:31:00] go back to the gutters to go back to the sewers where you belong. And I'm grateful today that, uh, I am connected to a church that came out last week and said this Christians are called to be like God and therefore to be living examples of his love and action in this world. Conversion practises which have been shown to be both ineffective and [01:31:30] deeply harmful, are the antithesis of this. And then it goes on to say we're told in the scriptures to accept one another just as Christ accepted us and to be sympathetic and love one another, to be compassionate, to be humble. That is what my God says. And I'm proud to follow them. And in closing, [01:32:00] I'm gonna do a repeat of what was just said at the end of the last speech. I come from Taranaki and is a place that's special to me. And this makes complete sense because it talks about glory to God above it talks about peace on Earth, which is not just amongst the land. It's amongst the people. It's amongst your own self. And it talks about goodwill to all people. [01:32:30] Goodwill to all people, caring for our caring for those you don't understand caring for those who are different to us. And so in closing, Mr Speaker, I'll also close with those words. Thank you. [01:33:00] Um, I call Barbara. Thank you, Mr Speaker. There has been a lot of tension in the house this afternoon, Uh, in people speaking to the conversion practises Prohibition legislation bill. And that is understandable because there is no place for violent and abusive conversion therapy practises in New Zealand. And I want to say from the outset of my speech that no [01:33:30] one in the national party believes that there is a place for violent and abusive conversion therapy practises in New Zealand. Uh, we support the core intent of this bill now, just in terms of legislation. Uh, and I know there's a lot of participation from public in here today. We came to Parliament, all of us to make better legislation. Legislation [01:34:00] goes through three readings, uh, and a submission process, and it goes through a committee of the whole house stage and the whole intention of that is to make better legislation. Now, wait said, uh, just a few minutes ago that we want to ensure the wording is right. That is why we are standing here today saying that we do not support conversion therapy, [01:34:30] but we're not in a place yet where we can support this piece of legislation. We want to. We want you to help us. We've had I know there's been lots of people in in, uh on the opposite side of the house today who have genuinely been shaking their head and said, It's not going to affect parents. We've got some advice here which says interactions within a family would also be captured if they meet the definition [01:35:00] of conversion practises, it would be a criminal offence for parents or other members of a family to attempt to change or suppress the sexual orientation, gender identity or expression of Children within the family. This would align with other existing regulatory controls of parental behaviour that could harm Children. Now there's a lot of wording in this bill [01:35:30] that is quite vague. Uh, the language is very vague, and so it's hard to understand exactly what is considered conversion practises under the law. And in this bill, our primary concern is that this bill exposes parents to prosecution. So if there are people over on the [01:36:00] other side of the house who truly believe that there is absolutely zero risk of that, uh, good luck to you, but we want to be sure we want to sit down and we want to have the conversation. We want to hear the submissions on this because one piece of precedent under the law, if there was one piece of law that set a precedent around [01:36:30] this stuff then, uh, then we've got a problem on our hands. Is it too much to ask that we sit down at select committee and we have an adult discussion, uh, around this conversation? Because because the history the history of, uh, conversion therapy practises is abhorrent. We want it gone. We just want to [01:37:00] make sure that in the process of finding ourselves in a place where we could move to support this bill and on telling you today, and other members of our caucus have told you we want to support this bill, we just want to make sure that we have the best piece of legislation that is possible to be able to support this bill. The thing is, and the thing is in this bill, [01:37:30] there's a real conflation around the language that is very vague talking about, uh, sexual orientation and gender identity expression. Um, and it's confused things. So sexual orientation requires no medical intervention, whereas it comes to gender identity expression. Parents are naturally concerned about being able to make decisions about their Children being given puberty, blockers and hormones. We [01:38:00] want to make sure that the public of New Zealand has the ability to understand the conversations that can and can't be had around these things. And, uh, we want to be able to separate that from what is historically known as or has been a bad practise of the past. And, you know, I saw Elizabeth, uh, up before with a book, uh, which I haven't seen before. And I would really love [01:38:30] to have a copy of that book. As I'm sure many members of our party would, uh, because it sounded to me like there was, um, a lot of, uh uh a good wording in that book and good methods to be able to understand how and family can deal with this, uh, with situations like this. And I'm hoping that going forward, um, that family and will be a lot more accepting of this in the past than what they have been, because certainly I don't want people, [01:39:00] uh, ending up feeling like, um, some of the, uh you know, I don't want people to end up feeling like Glenn Bennett. Uh, just and look, we're both from Taranaki. I don't want people to feel in the future like they're an issue. Is Glenn Bennett? Uh, everyone's got the right to be who they want to be. There is no argument around that we we support. We support LGBTI people. [01:39:30] We condemn those who are intolerant. We do not want to be intolerant. But what we want is we want to make sure that we have got a water tight piece of legislation. This is not I'm gonna for the government. I'm sure you all know this is a first reading. This is not This is not a third reading. Sorry to interrupt the member. Yeah, you have to sit there. So [01:40:00] I wanna warn the members on the government side. That's a barrage of interjections, which is out of order. OK, that's just way too much. Thank thank you, Mr Speaker. So all we're asking for is for you. Oh, sorry, Mr Speaker. Not you. But we're asking for the government members to engage at select committee with public submissions to ensure that you allay our [01:40:30] fears around the I mean, I just really, um I can see, um, Elizabeth nodding. I really do want to have a look at that. And I know other members in our party will do. We want to be absolutely sure that when we support this piece of legislation that, uh, all our concerns and fears around parents and families have been allayed. That is all we are asking for. And, uh, the reason I believe that part of the barrage over [01:41:00] on the other side of the house today has been happening is because we've heard all sorts of things about how we're not supportive of this. We are absolutely supportive of this. No, we are not voting for it today. We are being cautious. And we are We are preserving our rights as members of Parliament to completely understand that when we make a decision that we're making the right decision, and it may be only a matter of changing a clause [01:41:30] in the bill that will satisfy us, that we are not going to create any further harm by having families caught up in something that we're not sure that they won't be caught up in. So we're just asking, uh, the government. And look, we've got that opportunity for select committee. You might not be willing to give us a bit of leeway today, but we do know that we've got the select committee process coming up, and we will be looking for [01:42:00] you to reassure us around that clause in the bill that says that we believe, uh, at the moment, uh, implicates could have the potential to implicate parents. We're asking to just make this piece of legislation more foolproof than, uh, what it has been. Uh, and, uh, if you can do that, um, we'll certainly be going back because we all want to support this piece [01:42:30] of legislation, and it's not too much to ask that you convince us, uh, that, uh, this piece of legislation that we're very concerned about. Um, just there's one piece. There's one little piece in the legislation. Um, and if you can do that, um, we will have no problem. We would support it. We want to support it. We're just giving you the opportunity. We're just giving the government the opportunity to make one clause better. And after all [01:43:00] these years for a bit of certainty, to make one clause better is, uh, in our view, not asking for a whole lot. So, um, we look forward to the select committee process, uh, so we can help make this a better piece of legislation. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I [01:43:30] with my food basket and your food basket and even your food basket will throw five. And as the chair of our La La Rainbow Caucus, it's my pleasure, Mr Speaker, to take a call on this bill a vital bill and an important bill and piece of legislation [01:44:00] for our rainbow, our LGBTI Q plus plus plus the and their communities, parents and families. Today we see you, we hear you. And here we are together. I see this legislation as another step in building a progressive and inclusive aotearoa. New Zealand [01:44:30] and labour has always always stood with our Rainbow Communities 1986 Homosexual Law 2001 Inclusion in the Property Relations Act 2004 Civil unions 2012 Equal Marriage 2018 Expunging historical homosexual convictions and in this term of government, we established the Rainbow Legacy [01:45:00] Fund to support organisations working to improve mental health and well-being of our rainbow communities. We increased access to gender affirm affirming genital surgery. We increased funding for HIV and ST I Prevention services and research and labour is relentlessly proud of our rainbow communities and their I want to thank the Minister [01:45:30] of Justice, the honourable Chris, for getting this bill into the house so quickly after the general election only last year and for working with our Rainbow Caucus and committees to finalise its provisions that are before us today. And I also want to acknowledge the MP S from all sides of the house that have supported making lives better for and more equal for our communities and their [01:46:00] I would particularly like to acknowledge also other MP S in history that have made a contribution the honourable Catherine O'Regan for her amendments to the human Rights act in 1993 to prevent discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or disease status. Honourable James Shaw for his work in the Last Parliament, which will see sexual orientation and gender identity questions in in the next census. And, of course, my colleague [01:46:30] and friend Maya Lubeck, who received this petition from young labour and young greens, which led to her member's bill, which is the precursor to the bill we have in front of us today. And I also to my system Doctor Elizabeth and my brother across the house for their strong advocacy and support on this issue today. This indeed [01:47:00] is a part of our and the story that I have just shared is, and today it is in the spirit of that. I believe our Parliament should approach this bill and move forward. One's sexuality or one's gender identity or gender expression is not a political issue. It is an issue of humanity. Members [01:47:30] from all parties represented in this house have members of their or someone else they love who belong to our rainbow communities. Our loved ones are looking to us all to collectively work together to prevent these harmful practises and give the dignity the dignity to unapologetically be who they are. And so I have to say that [01:48:00] today I am hugely disappointed with the National Party for not supporting this bill, even through to a select committee process where we can iron out any issues that they face. If we cannot be united as a parliament to at least debate these issues and work through them for the betterment of our rainbow communities, we must question why we are are here. Your decision today only creates division [01:48:30] and when division is created, it puts our most marginalised people at the centre and the backlash will take place again by not supporting this bill even to its first reading. It is a support to continue the practise of conversion therapy, its status quo, and that it is shameful. [01:49:00] And now we all know that despite all of the years of progress that we have made in a in the past 35 years, since since law reform, many in our rainbow communities still find it difficult to come out and live their authentic lives. The 2021 youth, 19 Health and Well-being survey of 36,000 students led out of the Auckland out of Auckland University and the Victoria University of Wellington reported that just [01:49:30] over half 53% of same or multiple sex attracted students reported significant depressive symptoms. Half said that they had self harmed in the past year. More than one in 10 had attempted suicide. Only 42% of Rainbow Maori report good well being. More than half report symptoms of depression and close to half report serious thoughts of suicide in the [01:50:00] last year and just over half, 52% of Pacifica rainbow young people report good well-being close to half report clinically significant symptoms of depression and over 40% report serious thoughts of suicide in the last year. We hear you today and we see you and these challenges are much higher than those reported by non rainbow young people. We have to act to protect our young [01:50:30] people from further harm, Mr Speaker, that subjecting them to bogus conversion practises would cause and let us be in no doubt that our rainbow communities are being targeted by these harmful practises. Yes, even still today the 2019 counting ourselves a New Zealand trans and non-binary health survey of more than 1000 people found this that more than one in 6 17% reported that they had experienced [01:51:00] conversion therapy 17%. And the same proportion said that the prof that a professional had tried to stop them from being trans or non-binary a further 12% were not sure if that if this had happened to them, they questioned it. Participants reported much higher rates of high or very high psychological distress than the rest of the population and very high rates of suicidal thoughts and [01:51:30] attempts of suicide. It is time for us to act and put a stop to these destructive practises, which can include aversion therapy, where subjects are physically punished or forced to take cold showers if they become aroused by same sex erotic images or thoughts. Psychoanalysis talk therapy, where subjects are repeatedly told their sexual orientation or gender expression is a mental illness [01:52:00] that can be healed and evidentially it cannot. These rainbow practises have no science evidence or medicine. Our rainbow communities do not need or want to be healed. We want to be respected, we want to be valued, and most of all, we want to be loved for the people that we are. I accept that some people hold a different view to me and may not support this bill [01:52:30] even through the first reading, I hope is that in time all new Zealanders of A will come in acceptance of each other and not opt for the status quo. But this bill will not stop New Zealanders from expressing their opinions. The right of free speech is not impinged upon this lead by upon this legislation. But, Mr Speaker, as I wrap up, I acknowledge Rainbow Youth outline, my friend [01:53:00] Chanel la and the conversion therapy action group Young labour, young greens, young national, inside out, silent gays and the many, many people that have come to support our first reading today. Today we kick off our journey to ban conversion practise. It is time we see each other, we want to be loved. Today we start the journey and I commend this bill to the house. [01:53:30] Uh, before I put the question, Can I explain to members of public, uh, that there are two motions that have to be passed? Uh, if the first one passes, the clerk will read the bill and then there's a second one. If you can hold the applause until after the second one, that would be great. The question is that the motion be agreed to those of that opinion will say I [01:54:00] to the contrary. No, the eyes have it. A party vote has been called for the, um order votes are taken in silence. As you all well know, party vote has been called for. The clerk will conduct the party vote. New Zealand Labour 65 votes in favour New Zealand National. 33 votes opposed Green Party of Aotearoa, New Zealand 10 votes in favour a New Zealand [01:54:30] 10 votes in favour Maori Our members of the eyes are 87. The nos are 33 The bill will be read a first time conversion practises Prohibition legislation Bill first reading. Uh, the question is that the conversion, uh, that the conversion practises prohibition legislation bill be considered [01:55:00] by the Justice Committee? Those of that opinion will say I to the contrary know the eyes have it Party vote has been called for The clerk will conduct the party vote in silence please. New Zealand Labour 65 votes in favour New Zealand and National, 33 votes opposed. Green Party of Aotearoa, New Zealand. 10 votes in favour [01:55:30] Act, New Zealand. Tim votes in favour. Uh, the eyes are 87. The nos are 33. This bill will be referred to the Justice Committee. [01:56:00] Our members as we have, uh, come to a time past, uh, 16. 55. Um, I declare that the, um the house stands adjourned until 2 p. m. on Tuesday the 10th of August 2021.

IRN: 3438
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/conversion_practices_prohibition_legislation_annoucement.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004624
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089918
TITLE: Announcement of the Conversion Practices Prohibition Legislation Bill
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Kris Faafoi; Shanan Halbert
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Conversion Practices Prohibition Legislation Bill (2021); Kris Faafoi; Member of Parliament; OUTLine NZ; Rainbow Labour Caucus; Shanan Halbert; Youth; conversion / reparative therapy; conversion practices; law; religion; religious homophobia; youth
DATE: 30 July 2021
YEAR: 2021
LOCATION: OUTLine NZ, 31-35 Hargreaves Street, Ponsonby, Auckland
CONTEXT: Audio from the media conference to announce the Conversion Practices Prohibition Legislation Bill. The media event took place at the offices of OUTLine NZ in Auckland on 30 July 2021. The event begins with Rainbow Labour caucus chair and MP Shanan Halbert, followed by Minister of Justice Kris Faafoi.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Oh, as the as Labour's chair of our rainbow caucus. Um, it gives me great pleasure today to, um to welcome, uh, our minister, the honourable Chris, to make an announcement Our Rainbow Caucus, and have been out today visiting our rainbow organisations. [00:00:30] We just came from Rainbow Youth New Zealand AIDS Foundation uh, Rainbow tick to, um engage and spend time with our most precious communities that support rainbow people. I'd like to acknowledge, uh, our MP S that are with us today. Uh, Glenn Bennett, Theresa Gorby, Angela Roberts who are here from across the nation and to pass on our our broader greetings from our Rainbow Caucus members that are also out and about doing the good [00:01:00] work that they do. I'd like to particularly welcome my colleague Maya Lubeck, uh, who has done a lot of work over her time in parliament. Um, on this particular issue that we're discussing today, conversion practises and, uh, how proud of who I am in the lead up to today and the work that she has done. Our current parliament is the highest representation of rainbow MP S in any, uh, legislative group [00:01:30] and the most that labour has ever had to. But more than almost every MP has either a child who identifies as rainbow or someone who is very close to them amongst their broader whanau. And living authentically is not just an issue for rainbow New Zealanders. We all come from families and communities that are enriched by our lives as we are by their and their support. So it's my honour today to introduce a friend, [00:02:00] a colleague, Um, and today our minister, uh, the Honourable Chris, Minister of Justice, and Chris, thank you very much for coming, uh, on our rainbow caucus visit, actually, uh, to make this very special announcement and to all of you and all of our rainbow at home, I very much look forward to the contribution that you get to make throughout our select committee process. Uh um, [00:02:30] can I, uh, like Shannon, begin by acknowledging our parliamentary colleagues behind us. Uh, and I want to make sure I point out, uh, my for her commitment, Um, in the previous term, uh, to this issue And, uh, her commitment to making sure that we move, uh, to make sure that this piece of legislation, uh, goes through the house as soon as possible. Can I also acknowledge Claire and her team, uh, from outline for for hosting us? Uh, this afternoon, Uh, and the who are behind us? Uh, this afternoon, Um, I'm really happy today, uh, to [00:03:00] say that the government has introduced legislation to protect people from practises that seek to convert a person's sexual orientation, gender identity or gender expression. Uh, known as conversion practises. They claim to be able to change a person's sexuality or gender. The practises have no basis in science, are widely discredited and can often cause serious and lasting mental and emotional damage for those who are subjected to them. Uh, in developing the conversion practises prohibition legislation, Bill, [00:03:30] uh, the Ministry of Justice held discussions with survivors of such practises. The rain bay community representatives, faith groups, and provisional health bodies. Uh, views were sought from a diverse range of voices and experiences from ethnic and cultural groups, religious beliefs, sexualities and gender identities. Uh, these discussions through the engagement confirmed conversion practises, can cause serious harm, including serious, uh, severe depression and anxiety, isolation and alienation, increased feelings [00:04:00] of shame and grief. Uh, difficulties with forming relationships, substance abuse, Uh, and possible risk of suicide. Uh, some research identifies survivors of conversion practises experiencing symptoms also of post traumatic stress disorder. There can be no justification for trying to force someone to change their sexuality or gender identity. Uh, many of New Zealand's faith based communities have spoken out against conversion practises, the Salvation Army, saying such practises have been widely [00:04:30] discredited and that its organisation recognises the emotional, psychological, social and spiritual harms that the practises have caused. The diocese across New Zealand and elsewhere in the world have also moved to pass motions rejecting and condemning gay conversion practises. The UN rapporteur of freedom of religion or Belief, Ahmed Shaheed, recently stated that legislative measures prohibiting individuals and institutions from attempting to change or suppress a person's [00:05:00] sexual orientation or a person's gender identity do not violate the the right to freedom of religion or belief. He also see someone's ability to believe whatever they wish about sexuality or gender diversity, including whether it requires treatment as protected by the right to freedom of religion or belief. However, and this is important. He does warn that when such beliefs target the LGBT plus individuals with attempts to change or suppress their sexual [00:05:30] orientation or gender identity and inflict harm that that is not protected by international human rights law. And that is what we are proposing. And that isn't why that is why that's that is why this legislation is in step with this view. This bill will not outlaw a person's right to hold personal beliefs about sexual orientation or gender identity. It will not stop parents having conversations with their Children or pastors with parishioners who may be wrestling with their sexuality or gender identity. [00:06:00] And it will not stop parents or religious leaders from offering support. But the bill does draw a line between supporting someone and going beyond that to intentionally change their sexual orientation or gender identity. The bill creates two new criminal offences where there is heightened risk of harm, and the bill also uses criminal and civil law to prohibit and deter conversion practises. Uh, in terms of the criminal provisions, as in the case of conversion practises performed on people under the age of 18 or with [00:06:30] impaired decision-making capacity, or where it can be demonstrated that a person has suffered serious harm as a result of those conversion practises. These criminal offences are intended to capture particularly serious cases and to send a clear message that conversion practises are unacceptable because criminal proceedings will not always be an appropriate response. The bill also creates a civil pathway for redress. Using the Human Rights Commission, existing complaint system and the civil pathway will allow for a more constructive [00:07:00] and educative process with a focus on remedying harm and preventing it from happening again. Prohibiting conversion practises brings us in line with other countries such as Germany, the US and several Australian states, and we understand that the likes of Canada and Britain are also currently considering prohibition. Conversion practises have no place here in New Zealand. They are discriminatory and outdated and cause real, serious and life altering harm to Taku and people in their rainbow communities. They infringe on the rights and freedoms [00:07:30] guaranteed to those communities, particularly their freedom to express who they are. We made a promise at the last election that we would legislate against such practises and that is what we are doing with the introduction of the Conversion Practises Prohibition Legislation bill today. The bill will have its first reading in early August, Uh, after which public the public can make submissions to a select committee is our government's aim to have the legislation passed by early next year. Uh, by banning conversion practises in New Zealand, the government intends [00:08:00] to enhance the ability of our rainbow communities to enjoy their rights and freedoms free from harm and discrimination. Happy to take any questions very long time. So I don't think it's taken that long at all. Actually, we made the commitment in our manifesto, uh, at the election last September or october. Uh, and we're here now, making sure that, uh, it comes into the house next week. Uh, and we hope to have it passed by, uh, early [00:08:30] next year. It has been a commitment that we made a promise that we made. And we're keeping it vulnerable to these sort of Look, I think that we we've got the civil and criminal regimes, and I think you got to look at the purpose of the bill. Um, it is to prevent harm and to encourage the discussions about sexual orientation and gender identity to continue to happen. So, uh, with this bill again, uh, will, will will allow those discussions that are already happening, uh, in amongst whether it be [00:09:00] a faith based organisation, Uh, a family or a sports club or any other institution or a group in our community. What it does do is prevent harm from continuing to happen. There are people behind me who have much better. Um, uh, experiences of listening to those kinds of things and experiencing themselves. We know the conversion practises don't work. We know they cause harm. We need to make sure we prevent those harms and make sure there are healthy discussions going on about people with sexual orientation and their gender identity. Serious [00:09:30] harm is too high of a bar. Um, well, the the the bill clearly states what serious harm is, uh, and again, we only want to be dealing dealing in a criminal sense with serious cases. Um, that's why the the the the the design of the criminal provisions with this within this legislation, um, are very clear. Um, it it has to be a conversion practise, which is directed at someone because of their sexual orientation or their gender identity has to be with the intent of changing [00:10:00] that, and that goes against the fundamental human right that everybody has again, whether it's, uh, for an adult or a minor, you have to see you have to prove either harm or serious harm. And the bill clearly states what serious harm is. Then it goes back to, uh, what the police usually do. Uh, and they have to gather evidence for that. And then again, for something to go to court, um, the attorney general of the country has to consent to it, uh, the the the to, um, to that going to court. So there's a very high [00:10:30] bar for that, um, criminalization to deal with serious crimes. The purpose of this legislation, though, is not to criminalise people. It is to prevent harm that is already happening in our communities and also make sure that these conversations where people are expressing their sexual orientation and their gender identity could happen in a safe way. So they need to prove serious. Uh, because again, if it's a criminal provi, if if we're talking about the criminal [00:11:00] provisions, we only want the serious cases to get to to go down a criminal route, there is a civil liability where we ask where we are banning conversion practises and also saying, If there's a complaint or serious harm isn't uh, proven, then you are able to go to the Human Rights Commission to be able to get seek remedy there. Look, people [00:11:30] will also have the ability to to get legal aid, which is available to them now. I think once we've got this legislation passed, one of the conversations that we have to have with the Rainbow community, uh is what What? What do we do to assess and to make sure that these kinds of safe conversations around sexual orientation and gender identity are happening? Uh, there are some within our community, so we have to be educated a little bit more, uh, about what is safe. Um, but I think that mostly, uh, people in faith communities [00:12:00] and people of, uh, and families understand these situations. It is the extreme harm that we're trying to make sure we deal with in a criminal sense, but also giving a clear message that these conversion practises don't work and cause serious harm and giving a criminal and civil route for those, uh, for instances where they may happen. Is there any help for people who have been. [00:12:30] Look, I don't know the answer to that question about what is precisely available, but the government, through a number means offers assistance for the likes of, uh, Rainbow Communities. I think we put about $4 million into rainbow Mental health, uh, earlier this year to assist them. Uh, if they if they are suffering mental illnesses as a result of something like this again, um, legal aid might be available for someone to take a case, but we don't want cases to end up in court. We prefer, as is the purpose of this bill, um, that we're preventing [00:13:00] that harm. The conversion practises aren't happening because we know they don't work. Uh, and that these open, uh, and, uh, respectful conversations around sexual orientation and gender expression can happen. Look, it's really hard to to, uh, to to get a really good handle on that. We know what's happening. And the minister of justice, I think, engaged with about 100 people, uh, as it was doing its work, and there's still evidence of these things going on in pockets of our community again. I think, um, there are plenty of areas and communities where, uh, good [00:13:30] open discussions and support and counselling are happy to assist people if they declared their sexual orientation or their gender identity. Uh, or if people are working through that About what? Who they think they might be, um, where it becomes an issue. If people intentionally try to change or suppress that, uh, where which is causing harm. That's a thing we've got to stop, Um, because it is causing serious harm. We've had scenarios of people being suicidal that has come through some of the engagement from the Ministry of Justice. And again, we need to prevent that kind of thing happening [00:14:00] there. Clearly. Uh, look, um, we're still in the very early stage of the hate speech legislation. It's a discussion document. Uh, where submissions, Uh, end in about six days time. Um, but we, you know, again to the first question, we made a commitment here to make sure that these practises, um, are are outlawed are banned because they do not work and they cause more harm. Again, I think this legislation protects two really [00:14:30] important freedoms. First, the the freedom and the right for everyone to be who they are, uh, and to explore who they might want to be. Uh, and no one should be able to change that, but also that there is, um, a protection within this legislation, for the likes of the faith community to be able to continue to express their religious beliefs and principles. Whether that is in line with the rainbow community or not, it's really important that we protect both of those, uh, freedoms. But when it goes, um, beyond that to changing or suppressing someone's [00:15:00] sexual orientation or gender, uh, gender identity and that's where harm gets caused and which we which we need to prevent the national party. So I called, um, I've had some discussions with other political parties this week. Um, as you will know, um uh, the National Party in principle, um, has supported it, but they wanted to wait till they saw a legislation. Um, they they now have the ability to do that. I've also had a conversation with the Maori party, and I understand that the [00:15:30] Green Party is supportive. So, look, um, uh, out of respect, um, for this issue, there should be no politics in it. Um, so it's a really important issue for the rainbow community. If those other parties, like the National Party, have issues with the bill, we'll respectfully listen to those and work through those through the select committee. Um, through the select committee process, we want to make sure that this piece of legislation gets passed for religious groups who are [00:16:00] opposed to this. I mean, what do you say to them? And they still So my my message to them is to have a good look at the bill, Um, in the bill, uh, there is a protection for them to continue to be able to express their religious beliefs and principles. If that is against, uh, uh, people's sexual identity in their gender expression, they have the right to do that. What no one has the right to do, whether it's faith based or at a rugby club, [00:16:30] uh, or at a educational institute is to say to someone who knows who they are that they should change who they are. And that's why these two protections are really important. A. To allow people to have the right as an individual to be and express who they are. But also, if you have a deeply held religious beliefs about, uh, about people being homosexual or gender, um, gender diverse. Then you're entitled to that opinion, but no one should be able to be able to change someone's expression of who they are.

IRN: 3435
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/speak_up_for_women_15_july_2021.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004623
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089917
TITLE: Speak Up For Women
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Beth Johnson
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Act 2021; Crown Law Office; Michael Fowler Centre; Speak Up For Women NZ; Tracey Martin; Wellington; biological sex; self identification
DATE: 15 July 2021
YEAR: 2021
LOCATION: Michael Fowler Centre, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Speak Up For Women representative Beth Johnson speaks about the public meeting about to take place in the Michael Fowler Centre on 15 July 2021. The meeting was attended by around 130 people. In response, a trans rights rally was held outside the MFC at the same time.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, my name's Beth Johnson, and I'm here tonight representing Speak up for women. We are talking about the implications of sex self identification within the births, deaths and marriages Bill. And this has been a nationwide tour year of of of doing kind of discussions. That's right. Yes. This is our seventh event, I think, and part of our nationwide tour. And how have the, uh, events been received Really positive from the people that have attended the events. And, um, we've had preschool protests in Nelson, and we [00:00:30] expect a peaceful protest here later tonight. Can you, um, give me a sense of of who's in the audiences for these events and and kind of the the the demographics. Well, you're more than welcome to come inside and and hear and see. See for yourself. Um, we have a really mixed group of people, mostly women, um, of all ranges of ages. Uh, a lot of lesbian women. Um, bisexuals. We usually have some men and some transsexual supporter events as well. And what What are the key messages that you want to kind of get out tonight? [00:01:00] We're discussing the fact that biological sex sometimes matters in life and should remain protected in law. And this has implications for, um, access and eligibility to single sex spaces and services. It has implications for the definition of, um, sexual attraction and homosexual, for example. So, um, biological sex exists. It matters, and it shouldn't be entirely replaced by the concept of gender identity in our laws. And if that is going to happen, [00:01:30] this change a change this big must go to select committee so that we can have a proper, robust Democratic public debate about it. So was speak up for women. Um formed for this one issue? Yes. Speak up for women was formed in 2018, um to, uh, put pressure on the government to reconsider the sex self identification clause, which had been added into the bill after public submissions had closed. So Tracy Martin deferred the bill in 2019 when it became apparent [00:02:00] that this undemocratic process had been followed. So two years later, we have a new government who is intent on pushing the bill through to a second reading, and we're saying, have those fundamental legal issues been addressed? Tracy Martin identified them from a crown law opinion. Have they been addressed? Will the public have an opportunity to submit on these fundamental changes? And that's what we're discussing. And ultimately, what do you What? What? What do you want to see happen? Ultimately, we want this [00:02:30] bill to go to select committee so New Zealanders can submit. We want to have a conversation about how we can advance the rights and the life outcomes of transgender people without impacting the rights of women and girls. And we believe that that's possible and that that conversation can happen. It's not happening yet. Throughout the last events that you've had, um, there has been some opposition. Has that surprised you? Uh, no. It hasn't surprised us, because ever since we formed in [00:03:00] 2018, there's been a concerted smear campaign against our group. Um, our political opponents have vested in us not being heard because they want this bill to pass unchallenged. So there's been a lot of effort gone into not hearing our perspective. Um, I think that's changing now. I think people realise that we are reasonable. We've got genuine concerns and that we want to work on solutions. And when you say smear campaign. What? What? What? What? What's been happening? We've been called a hate group. We've been called [00:03:30] anti Trans. We've been called bigots. Um, you name it. It's been said, um, I won't name the organisations that have, um perpetuated it through the media, but it's been, um, pretty concerted, and it's been designed to, um, stop the New Zealand public from listening to what we have to say.

IRN: 3432
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rally_for_trans_rights_15_july_2021.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004622
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089916
TITLE: Rally for Trans Rights (15 July 2021)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Bill Logan; Elle Kingsbury; Fleur Fitzsimons; Kate Power; Pat McIntosh; Rangimoana Taylor; Selena Pirika; Serah Allison; Tristan-Cordelia; Val Little
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 2020s; Ani O'Brien; Aotearoa New Zealand; Beth Johnson; Bill Logan; Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Act 2021; Carmen Rupe; Dana de Milo; Elle Kingsbury; Fleur Fitzsimons; Homosexual Law Reform; International Socialist Organisation Aotearoa; Janice Raymond; Jehovah's Witnesses; Jennifer Edwards; Kate Power; Marxism; Michael Fowler Centre; Māori; Pat McIntosh; Queer Endurance / Defiance; Rangimoana Taylor; Selena Pirika; Serah Allison; Speak Up For Women NZ; TVNZ (Television New Zealand); Thistle Hall; Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); Transgender flag; Tristan-Cordelia; Val Little; We Shall Overcome (song); Wellington; Wellington City Council; abuse; activism; aroha; awhi; birth certificate; chant; cis female; cis male; cisgender; collective action; collective struggle; endurance; facebook. com; fear; feminism; flags; gay; hapu; hate; hate group; human rights; identity documents; identity politics; iwi; law; lesbian; lesbian feminism; non-binary; patriarchal system; protest; second-wave feminism; singing; social media; social networking; suicide; support; takatāpui; trans; trans awareness; trans children; trans man; trans politics; trans visibility; trans woman; transgender; transgender activism; transgender bullying; transition; transphobia; transphobic violence; whānau; youth
DATE: 15 July 2021
YEAR: 2021
LOCATION: Michael Fowler Centre, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the rally for trans rights, held outside the Michael Fowler Centre in Wellington on 15 July 2021. The rally was in response to a public meeting being held in the MFC by the group Speak Up For Women NZ. Over 1,000 people attended the rally and around 130 attended the public meeting.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi. I'm El Kingsbury. I'm a member of, uh, Queer Activist group. Queer Endurance. Defiance. Uh, we are at a rally for trans rights outside the Michael Fowler Centre in Wellington. So speak up for women who are an anti trans campaign group are holding a meeting inside the Michael Fowler Centre. Um, it was our opinion as a group that there should be a positive show of support for trans rights. Um, [00:00:30] outside the building, in an entirely peaceful and positive way. Um, while that was going on. So that's what we're doing. Can you tell me a wee bit more about the kind of meeting that speak up for women are having around the country? Yes. Um, speak up. The woman has been touring the country over the last month and a half, uh, holding meetings in a series called Let's let's Talk About Self ID. This is in reference to the upcoming amendment to the BDMRR [00:01:00] bill, which is going to go through Parliament. Um, that amendment will make it slightly easier for trans people to, um, amend the sex marker on our birth certificates to make it accurate to our actual genders. Um, this is a minor positive reform which will make the lives of trans people um, just just slightly easier. Um, but it's also quite a powerful symbol of public support [00:01:30] and acceptance for trans. People speak up for women, um, are against this amendment. They claim that it will erode women's rights and allow men to invade women's spaces. This is not the case. The bill will not have any effect of that kind, basically, because birth certificates are not required for entry into women's spaces. Um, also, trans women have been in women's spaces for a long time, [00:02:00] and it's fine. What this is really about is whether trans people are a legitimate part of our society or not. We think, yes, and they think no. And that's why we're here. Can you describe, um, what we can see around us? We're We're outside the Michael Fowler Centre at the moment. Can you Can you just paint a picture for me? What you can see? Um, it is a rather cold, windy night. It isn't yet for which we are grateful. Um, people are that that very [00:02:30] warm. Uh, we are expecting well on the event page. Um, 550 people mark themselves as going, um, we probably won't get that many, but we are expecting a larger cloud as the night goes on. How does it make you feel personally, when you see so many people gather tonight in support of transgender and rainbow communities, it makes me very, very proud for the work that we have done. What we have achieved in this country. Um, [00:03:00] 20 years ago, we would not have seen anything like this in support for trans rights that we that we see this now. A cloud of people gathering in support of our rights, Um, greatly outnumbering the people, Um, who are likely to be attending the speak up for women event. This is the overact result of the work that trans people and activists have done over the last 20 years. And I am so grateful for that work. I'm proud to stand in their tradition. [00:03:30] My name is Ray Moana Taylor. And as I look around the Michael Fowler Centre, something which I didn't expect was over. 100 people are actually here in support of trans people. Um, we're not all trans people, but we are here to support what I consider a human rights issue. So so will you actually be going in tonight? Yes, I think it's really important that we [00:04:00] sit inside that We listen, and we really need to listen to what they're saying. But we also need to listen to what are the undercurrents of what are being said. And that's important. We are. Sometimes the most reasoned people can be very vicious underneath what they're saying. So I was listening to some say we are not anti trans. We think that people should, But you know, all sorts of things, which is another way of saying is, [00:04:30] Well, we don't mind you, but we don't want to see you. We don't want to have anything to do with you. Um, you're going to do this. You're going to, um, you know, take the rights of women away. Trans people call themselves trans people, you know, they, they they they're not afraid to do that. And I think this is what we have to look for, and we have to actually listen to other people's arguments as well. And that's what I hope to do tonight. Can you just cast your eye around the crowd and just describe for me what? What you can see. [00:05:00] Well, it's a hugely diverse group of people with flags and signs supporting trans rights saying Trans women are women. Indigenous genders are real, a range of people, a range of ages, a range of sexualities and orientations, a range of ethnic backgrounds. It's really quite an extraordinary gathering. In a way. We thought when we were starting this, [00:05:30] that we would get 40 people or something. And there's what III I think 400 people here, something like that. Now, um, it's much more than we expected, and it really hasn't started yet, So we'll see what happens now. Bill, you've been an activist for decades and decades. How? How does this rally compare to something, say, 20 or 30 years ago? Well, in some ways, it's incredibly similar. Um, if [00:06:00] we if we leave aside, the the the the noise, the the the the um, the people who come in who are incidental to the situation. Uh, what you have is a group of people inside who are very scared, who think that the world as they know it is going to come to an end because people could change their sex on their birth certificate. Uh, And who, uh, on the one hand, say they love trans people and on the other hand, say pretty nasty things about [00:06:30] trans people. It's incredibly reminiscent of the people inside the meetings during homosexual law reform in 1985 86. Uh, or, uh, where where you had sweetness and light on the one hand and venom and nastiness on the other. Uh, and when If you, uh, went to lobby someone who is opposed to the bill, they'd say, Oh, we're so sorry for you. Uh, and yet they'd continue their opposition. And that's what we've got inside and outside. We've got a diverse [00:07:00] group of people who simply are standing for, for for the freedom, to have the expression that you want to have. This actually comes just a week or so after the 35th anniversary of of homosexual law reform. Um, can you see any kind of commonalities or similarities between the two? Yeah, I mean it. It's it's it's It's strangely similar in a way, and I'm surprised that [00:07:30] we we we've come such a short distance in a way that you would have thought that the ideas which were pretty well entrenched in 1985 86 in relation to homosexuality didn't transfer to the cases of of trans transgenderism, and I'm surprised that there hasn't been more movement on that question. But no change [00:08:00] is complicated. And this one's complicated, too. So what do you think will come out of tonight? I don't think that you get a huge change out of any single demonstration. Uh, but one thing has happened, and that is that people will see that decent, normal people are are, um, are offended, actually, [00:08:30] by attempts to discriminate officially against a category of people. And just that visibility is is hugely important. I think that we're going to have some speakers, some trans speakers shortly, and that will help show the reality of of transsexualism to people. Uh, and it will will make it less fearful, I think, because there is a lot of fear involved [00:09:00] for for people in the rest of the country that can't be here tonight for rainbow communities, transgender communities. Do you have any, um, thoughts or words for for them? Well, let's hope that similar events happen around the country as necessary. Um, I think that the people who are organising the meeting inside here are organising in a variety of places around the country. I think that our reaction to that has been a useful reaction. And if other people can react [00:09:30] to it in the way that they think is best in their own localities, that would be helpful. I'm a Wellington city councillor, and I'm here down at the Michael Fowler Centre with, I think, maybe over 1000 Wellingtons who have come out to express their support for the rights of transgender Wellingtons and transgender people all around the world. And it's so heartening and wonderful to see this crowd. Can you describe the mood? Look, the mood is one of celebration of inclusion, and I [00:10:00] think you can see that from the signs. Trans rights are human rights. Indigenous genders are real. Trans women are women. Um, there's there's just so many different signs all around the place, which all have a consistent message of inclusion and love for our transgender communities. So we're in the car park of the Michael Fowler Centre and, uh, speak up for women is actually holding their their event in the Michael Fowler Centre tonight. Um, was there any kind of issues with them being on council property during this meeting? No. Personally, I was a bit disappointed that they were able [00:10:30] to use a public venue, uh, for their meeting. But what we've done is light up the Michael Fowler Centre and the colours of the transgender flag. And I think that sends a message to them. But also a message to all Wellingtons that this city is an inclusive city where everybody is welcome and everybody is able and loved for being themselves. Perhaps if you could just, um, describe some of the, um, signs and flags that you can see. Yeah. There's some beautiful signs out here we've got, uh I love [00:11:00] my son. Trans rights, human rights. Trans women are women. Get over it. Uh, hearts, not parts. Oh, that's particularly beautiful. Uh, all feminists support all women. Go woman. Yes. To BDMRR, which is, uh, legislation the government's putting through. Uh, there's so many no turfs on our turf. Trans liberation now love all our sisters. Not only our sisters. It's pretty cool. What's happening now? We're all walking over, [00:11:30] and I think there's gonna be some speeches, and, um, there's a great mood here. People are really keen to hear from others. I can tell we are queer endurance in defiance. And we thank you all so much for coming out today. [00:12:00] Even those of you who are not out yet. We are gathered together in the cold like this because some people inside that building do not want us to exist. They do not like the fact [00:12:30] they do not like the fact. And yes, it is a fact and not just a feeling that trans women are women. The trans men are men, and the non binary genders are valid. [00:13:00] So they're having a little meeting to complain about our existence. Our first speaker, Kate Power, will call out their lives. Now they say they are the feminist, the one women's rights. They say they are the feminists. While they reduce womanhood to a collection of body parts, they [00:13:30] say they are the feminists. While they reduce womanhood to the ability to carry Children, they say they are the feminists, while they apply more metaphysical significance to the Penis, a tube of flesh of blood than patriarchy ever could. They say they are the feminists. While they mock trans women to their height, broad shoulders or facial hair as a sis, women with similar features aren't listening. They say they are the feminists, while stoking a climate of fear [00:14:00] and where every woman sis or trans, whose appearance does not fit within a standard of stereotypical femaleness will be harassed, assaulted or had the cops called on them just for using the bathroom or participating in sports. They say they are the feminists. While they tell lesbians they are not lesbians simply because they love trans women, they say they are the feminists, or they cosy up to national and act. Or they gain support from family first [00:14:30] and right wing conspiracy groups. They say they are the feminists, or they dedicate every ounce of their political energy to misunderstanding, misrepresenting and antagonising trans people. They continue to do this all. While the fight for free and accessible abortion raged on in the background, most of our members marched for the right to abortion. Some of our members helped organise a rally, and all Annie O'Brien did was stay home and handing over the inclusive language [00:15:00] the rally used, they said, absolutely silent while nurses 91% of whom are women, strike for livable pay and working conditions. Yet they have more than enough time to write article after article, painting Trans women as violent, deluded, intrusive men. Yeah, every Trans woman I know has stories of having lewd comments shouted at us from passing cars of being cat called in the streets. We've [00:15:30] seen men go from nice to hostile as soon as we rebuff their advances. We've had our perspectives and skills dismissed by men who assume they know more than us. I've heard many more stories, too upsetting and personal for me to feel comfortable sharing on a public stage. But time and time again, statistics show that trans women are the ones being abused, not the other way around. When we say we are women, it is not simply a matter of feelings. For many of us, it is an inescapable political and material reality. Yeah, [00:16:00] many who would call themselves feminists would sooner send us alone into male spaces than simply address our own discomfort with our presence and women's spaces. Patriarchy functions in a two pronged attack. Yes, it seeks to assert men and masculinity is inherently superior just to check. Can everyone hear me? No. In the back, The [00:16:30] people in the back. What's your opinion on that? Sorry about that. Um there's a suggestion that maybe people towards the front could repeat what I'm saying. Back to people in the back. Um, I can take a pause between lines. Alright? Yeah. Patriarchy functions in a two pronged attack. [00:17:00] Yes, that seeks to assert men and masculinity is inherently superior to women and femininity. OK, maybe the speech is too complicated, you know, But it also seeks to other men and women from each other. Big job painting, man and woman is separate, mutually exclusive categories. [00:17:30] Usually sorry. Each possessing a unique set of categories with absolutely no overlap of trans women sit at the intersection of this patriarchal oppression. Too feminine to be respected by men [00:18:00] and two sis to be accepted by anyone and to be accepted by anyone. We'd be arrested for having our titties out at the beach and throwing in with the men for processing. We'd be sexually harassed by men they attacked if they suspect [00:18:30] we have a different set of genitals than they were expecting. The tradition of trans feminism is long and storied and vital and speak up for women's ideas, aren't you? Speak up. I have personally grappled with every question or concern they could tout [00:19:00] and found it extremely easy to fit my own identity and existence into my feminist world. View is my home. Sorry. These are long sentences. Sometimes I do not need permission from the ideological rejects of the second wave to exist [00:19:30] safely and freely say it was. I will not be told that I do not have the perspective to recognise a hate group when I see one. I have been Kate Power. Thank you very much. [00:20:00] Yo, yo, how are you all enjoying being a human microphone? My name is Tristan Cordelia, and I am a trans woman. The anti trans mob meeting inside that building wants [00:20:30] you to believe that trans women are just men pretending to be women so that we can commit crimes. They call us sex offenders merely for having the audacity to assert our identity. Then play the victim. When we point out that that is hate speech, they tell us that we are really men who just think we can choose to be women when it suits us. [00:21:00] But here's the thing. I am proud to be Trans. I am proud to be a part of this beautiful community. But I did not choose to be Trans, and I sure as hell did not want to be Trans. [00:21:30] I grew up being told I was a boy and I wanted more than anything to be a man. I did a lot of dumb stuff to try and prove that I was really a man. Men have a lot more freedom to do dumb, fun stuff than women. They can walk home after midnight. They can hitchhike, they can go partying without getting groped, they get jobs easier and those jobs pay better. So why would I want to be a woman? I never [00:22:00] wanted to be a woman, but after years of trying and failing to be a man, I had to make a choice. Either kill myself or upset that I am a trans woman and face the consequences of living in a society that despises transom that hates trans women. [00:22:30] This was not a choice. It wasn't something I wanted to do. But even though it sucks, sometimes I am proud to be who I am. I didn't choose to be Trans, but I did choose life and [00:23:00] I will not let you take that life away. I am here today to assert our right to exist. The anti trans mob will tell you that we believe there is no difference between trans women and sis woman or trans men and sis men, and that we are trying to anyone who thinks [00:23:30] otherwise. But this is nonsense. Of course, there is a difference between trans women and sis woman. The point is, we're different. But we are both women. Yeah, I have to spend a ridiculous amount of my income on clothes, haircuts and makeup just like any other woman. [00:24:00] And yeah, I have an unexpectedly deep voice. So sorry for not being the perfect fifties housewife, but I get groped in clubs just like other women. I have to worry about being followed home at night. Just like other women. I get called a bitch if I won't sleep with a guy and a slut. If I do, just like any other woman, the anti trans [00:24:30] mob will tell you that I still can't be a woman because I don't have a worm and I can't carry babies. But if they really believe that, then they also believe that any woman who has had to have a hysterectomy is also therefore not a woman. That any woman who cannot conceive is therefore not a woman, no matter how many tears she has cried over the matter. They call themselves feminists but deny the womanhood of any woman who can't give birth. And I think that's fucked up. [00:25:00] Yeah, My friend John is now going to speak about the reason we're here tonight. Hey, everyone, can can you all hear me? OK, Nice. Uh, so thank you all for coming out tonight. Um, my name [00:25:30] is John, and I wanted to talk to you a little bit about the particular thing that's making turfs mad right now. The BDMRR bill and also about collective struggle and how we're stronger together. BMRR, as you probably already know, stands for births, deaths, marriages and relationships. Registration. This is an old act that regulates the ways births, deaths and marriages are [00:26:00] recorded in New Zealand. And, yes, this is the boring speech. I'm very sorry. Bill is currently before parliament that will update certain aspects of this bill. To hear turfs tell it, this update represents some kind of dangerous social experiment that threatens to unravel the fabric of New Zealand society. But what does it actually do? The honest answer is not much. [00:26:30] The reforms in the bill will make it easier for a person to change their sex as listed on their birth certificate, to accord with their gender. They replace the onerous need to apply to the family court with a simple self declaration, remove medical gatekeeping and add options for non binary markers to birth certificates. [00:27:00] This this process already exists for updating one's gender on passports and driver's licences. The bill merely extends it to birth certificates. This is a minor reform, but it is an important one because it has symbolic weight. It represents a greater acceptance of gender minorities by wider society. Passing the [00:27:30] bill, allowing self ID will not end society as we know it, or even much change it. Things will carry on almost exactly as before, with the one exception that Trans people will find it slightly easier to live as themselves. Don't think it really talk, [00:28:00] and the more that state continues the more people will realise that trans people aren't an existential threat to them and the more accepted trans people will be. So if its chief value is symbolic, why do turfs hate it so much? It has nothing to do with the arguments they make On paper. The bill has nothing to do with bathroom access or sports because birth certificates have nothing to do with those things, either. When was the last time anyone ever asked [00:28:30] you for a birth certificate when you went to the bathroom? Don't want the bill passed because of what it represents. A small step towards making trans people feel more able to be themselves without fear of Reprisal. Want people to feel hated and be invisible. [00:29:00] They want the public to fear trans people, but they also want trans people to fear the public to be afraid of showing their true faces. Turfs want the public convinced that a tiny and very vulnerable minority represent an existential threat to women, to kids, to gays and lesbians, to gender, non conforming S people to free speech, science, democracy, art, truth, [00:29:30] anything and everything and every one. The more people believe that the harder it will be for trans people to live in the public sphere, the more they'll be forced back into the closet, which is the ultimate aim of Transphobia, in the words of Janice Raymond, one of the earliest turfs morally mandating us out of existence. The BDMRRBDMRR bill's passage. Sorry, it's a lot of letters at once. Um [00:30:00] will represent a blow to this vision, not because the changes it contains are radical, but because life will carry on as normal once it passes, as it has in Argentina, Ireland, Belgium and all the other countries where self ID is already law. As trans people become more and more visible and more secure and assertive in their rights, the power of turfs will diminish. Indeed, building solidarity between [00:30:30] trans people and other oppressed groups is a gateway to winning further struggles and securing further rights. Yeah, of crap, if you say so. But in Argentina, where self ID has been law since 2012, a coalition [00:31:00] comprising feminists, trans rights groups and workers organisations right, [00:31:30] my friends, my friends, right. [00:32:00] Thank you. Sorry about that. Ok, so I have good news for you. That heckler was wrong in Argentina as I was saying, Self ID has been law since 2012 [00:32:30] and a coalition of feminists, trans rights groups and workers organisations have been working together throughout the past couple of years to pressure the government into passing landmark abortion laws. Historic in South America, which puts the lie to turf claims that trans rights and women's rights are in conflict and demonstrates that solidarity between marginalised groups and the working class is a force that can reshape. [00:33:00] We should reject the claims of Turfs and others like them that rights are a zero sum game and more rights for one group will somehow diminish the rights of another. It's important that gender, minorities and our allies stand together, make our voices heard and fight against transphobia in our own [00:33:30] name. And it's just as important that we link arms with other oppressed groups women, Maori, migrants, workers. Today we are fighting for the right to self ID. Tomorrow it might be to up the refugee quota or to restore workers' rights to strike or to expand support for women of victims of domestic violence. [00:34:00] We have a collective struggle to wage and we are stronger together. Thank you. Yo, yo, you're all amazing. You're all beautiful and you're all valid. [00:34:30] We just have to pause for a second and ask everyone at the back to move forward a little to get a car through while we are moving this vehicle. My friend Ben is going to speak further about the history of these protests. Oh, it's amazing to see the biggest demonstration that there has been in Wellington for a very long time. [00:35:00] I thank the organisers of this demonstration for inviting me to speak. Invited me to speak, I think, as a representative of the struggle of 1985 86 it was an extremely similar struggle. In many, many ways. There were so many meetings, small groups of afraid, people [00:35:30] saying vile things but occasionally also saying, Oh, we love you, we pity you and then going back to saying they're vile things. There were many, many meetings like that in 1985 86 and they were outside those meetings. Gatherings like this gatherings that represented a huge diversity of ordinary New Zealanders of [00:36:00] every type of every gender of every sexuality. Demonstrations like this represent justice, and they represent the future and they represent better lives for our people. [00:36:30] We've got one more speaker and then we'll have a little music afterwards. We're going to make the music ourselves. Because we were bad bitches and Blue Owl Speaker. Um, Blue Owl Amber, our final speaker tonight is the amazing Sarah. [00:37:00] Whoa! So many of you. This is so cool. You've heard from a lot of great speakers You've heard about trans awesomeness. You've heard about turfs and where their hate leads. You've heard about the be lots of leaders MD, R a bell that will make our lives easier. You've heard about other reasons for action and other people willing to take that action. Meanwhile, in that building, trans [00:37:30] exclusionary people are trying to do trans exclusionary things. You've even seen them coming out here trying to exclude us in our own space. Those people are wrong. Those who fear trans people are wrong In their analysis of us, we are a threat, Sure, but we're a We're a threat to archaic social structures and to the ruling classes, [00:38:00] not to our fellow working class. Those who exclude trans people are wrong in their actions and we hope they'll realise this someday and come and stand beside us. Those [00:38:30] who deny our rights are wrong. Human rights are not things that come at the expense of each other. Trans rights do not exclude women's rights as the claim. Trans rights and women's rights are generally the same thing. If you need to distinguish if you need to distinguish transwomen and sis women when talking about rights, then we can say that both groups rights are complimentary [00:39:00] of one another. They go together. We are We are not trying to take rights away from others and others shouldn't try and take rights away from us. I'm a member of the International Socialist Organisation and I don't think [00:39:30] I'm alone, judging from the enthusiasm in this crowd, when I say that we stand in solidarity with other working class struggles for their rights too. So, for example, just today, two comrades protecting on Waiheke Island were arrested. They are [00:40:00] they are standing up for the environment. They are standing up for local iwi who have not given permission for a new marina to be built in Wellington Stand and Shelley Bay and we stand with them also you proud this cops [00:40:30] we like we summoned them. Here it goes J to get back to human rights. Our rights are human rights our right not to just exist but to live to thrive alongside our comrades in society not sidelined by it. Trans rights are human rights. Let me hear you say it. Trans rights! [00:41:00] Strange treasure 20. Yes, I'm nearly done. I promise. This rally was organised by a new activist group [00:41:30] Queer Endurance Defiance. I I'm proud to be part of that group. If you'd like to join us in our organising, come speak with us or message us on Facebook. You know where to find us. Queer endurance, defiance, but also the term queer endurance Defiance shouldn't just be the name of a group. It's us, all of us. It's what we're doing right now. It describes who we are queer because we're different. We're proud of that difference. [00:42:00] We're not afraid to be different. Sure, we feel fear sometimes, but we are not defined by that fear we face. We face down that opposition proudly proud in our identities, proud of our authenticity, proud that we love who we love proud We love how we love Proud of how much We love [00:42:30] endurance because we won't be worn down. We won't be swept under the rug. We won't be forgotten. We won't be erased from history. We have endured. We are still here. We continue to endure, despite turf attempts to erase us. [00:43:00] And then the last defiance. Because we stand strong together. We are doing that right [00:43:30] now. We're not just going to weather the storm. We're going to face it. We're here to protect our queer. We'll stand up to protect gay men. Lesbian women, trans binary and non-binary intersects everyone. We love you. We love each other. We all stand together and we protect our community. Queer Endurance. Defiance. [00:44:00] OK, no. We're gonna mash up an old protest song with a dance floor banger Who [00:44:30] wants to be a bass? Who wants to be some Trevor And who wants to be vocals? Alright, Bass, You're gonna play some trace. We want you to go. Duff Duff, Duff Duff! Come on! And da da da Done! Da da da da da Locals We [00:45:00] shall We shall overcome. Yeah, we shall. We shall overcome. Come da da da da We shall We shall overcome shall we shall [00:45:30] overcome you said You. Yeah, yeah, yes, yes. Who? [00:46:00] Trans women are women. Trans men are men. Non-binary genders are valid. Trans rights are human rights. I got your back. [00:46:30] You are all beautiful. You are all amazing. You are all valid and I love every single one of you. We're queer. Endurance and defiance. We fucked up our sound system. [00:47:00] Thank you for putting back up with our feedback. Thank you for helping protect the turf who attacked us. They may want to get violent with us, but we will still shelter them because that's how we fuck. I run out of words. I'm just staring [00:47:30] out at your faces. You're all amazing. You want to take this energy and make our lives better? Make the lives better for every single trans person who's felt that they were living in a world that hated them too much to be themselves. We want to live in a world where you don't have to face down the knife that you're holding to your wrist because you don't think you can be yourselves [00:48:00] a world where you don't get kicked out of your home for telling your parents who you really are. I love every single one of you. And I wish that you can all live your true Selves. No matter what anyone says, we lift one another up will be free. Shall we shall overcome. [00:48:30] Shall we shall overcome. We shall. We shall overcome because we're beautiful and we're doing it. But yeah, transmit the human rights and we're getting them now. Look after one another tonight. [00:49:00] Keep each other safe on the way home and party like crazy this weekend because you deserve it. You've all been amazing tonight. I love you all. Here we are. So my name is Selena Pea. And, um, what we're witnessing right now is the the [00:49:30] the positive protest. Um, for anti trans groups, um, and particularly turfs And we're actually set by the our new generation and, um, a range of different leaders throughout the entire community, including our own allies as well. Can you describe tonight's crowd? Tonight's crowd is very, very energetic. It's a very young crowd, but it's a very it's [00:50:00] It's a crowd that is extremely that is extremely driven. So they're driven to listen. They're driven to actually speak, and they're also driven to, um to work towards a better, a better solution and better legacy. Actually, how many people do you think are here tonight? 1500. Maybe more. So, um, it looks like it's a whole lot of people. It's huge. And And can you describe the, um, the atmosphere? [00:50:30] Uh, the atmosphere is it's quite invigorating. It's quite exciting. Um, and it's exciting because everybody that has come out of the out of the woodwork have all been you. And they're all using their social media networks to actually, um, spread the word and spread the the of the So, um so yes. Yeah, that's why everybody's here. Why was it important [00:51:00] for you to be here tonight? Um, well, it's It's extremely important for me. Firstly, I'm a, um Firstly, I'm Maori and and I'm an actually, and I'm a full time living trans woman. So it is important for me to be here and for me to firstly represent please. As you can tell, um, Firstly, to represent all, um my and who have gone before me? Carmen. Um, the late Jennifer [00:51:30] Edwards. All the all the sisterhood, all the Maori sisterhood throughout the country. This is the reason why I'm here. They have fought, and they have also stood to to be a part of things like this. It's a very important it's really important. What would you say to to, uh, people that couldn't be here tonight but would want to be here? I'd probably say, Firstly, this is the place to be, um this is the place to share. This is the place to support. This [00:52:00] is the place to be. And this is the place. Uh, this is the place to unite, and most of all, have a united front to these sorts of issues to these sorts of I'm Erin called. Um, the atmosphere is amazing. I love to see my trans supported, and I hate her. So it's amazing. Um, I'm Dylan, and the love here is really strong. There's a lot of people [00:52:30] I don't even know if you can hear me, but it's crazy. Um, the atmosphere is amazing. I'm I'm here to support my trans and, um, just make it clear that wellingtons, you know, don't put up with transphobia. Can you describe the signs you're holding? Yeah, mine's a double sided sign and it says, Stop listening to trans phobes and start listening to trans people. Um, and that's from an instagram called Girl of Swords. And then on the other [00:53:00] side, it says I will not tolerate your intolerance. Our oppressions carry the same roots. Uh, so my side says Transphobia, is the only threat because it is mine. Says yes to BDMRR. Can you describe what it has been like being in this crowd tonight? Ah, it's it's crazy. I think I'm gonna lose my voice because I been screaming and one of the turfs came out and it was like a whole thing. So it's amazing, really. [00:53:30] I just feel so much out of. I feel a lot of so much support from everyone. It's like a big, warm mental emotional hug. It's wonderful seeing such a great turn out really, really fantastic turnout of people who, um, are showing support. Yeah, So why was it important for you to be here today? Well, it affects me. I'm a trans person, and, uh, my mum's a very transphobic. So this is just a big fuck you to her. If you need to bleep that, that's [00:54:00] fine. But you know, metaphorical and literal. Fuck you. Uh, so it's important for me to be here tonight to support all the trans community as well as myself. Be trans male by everyone who is or as an out they know that we're here and the love is stronger than the hate and we have their back. For me, it was really important to show my support as a CIS gender parent of, um, you know, trans, uh, a trans child [00:54:30] and to just really show support for the many ways that people can live their best lives. If somebody couldn't be here tonight but really wanted to be, what would be what would be your message to them? That you're loved and that there's people who support you and will always fight for your rights, that we still see you? And regardless, if you're here or not, you're still here in our hearts. My message would be around the importance of the legislation and doing [00:55:00] whatever you can to show support for that in a small or big way, whatever you're comfortable with. So whether that's going on to the gender minorities Facebook page and liking the Facebook page or writing to your local politicians to express your support. But get in there and be political at whatever level you're comfortable with. Yeah, it's It's a great turnout. I. I love the diversity. The age difference. Uh, looking at how many walked [00:55:30] in there weren't that many, uh, walked into the, um, into the, uh What do we call it? Sneaked in? Well, I in and had a little look and see how many were there. Not that many, if any. But you know, it's it's interesting. This is the wave that's coming, that these people upstairs, uh, need to get their head around. It's been so noisy out here. I'm I'm losing my voice. But what can you tell me about the atmosphere inside? Um, it was very cold. I walked up. There was TV New Zealand at the top. I took some shots for footage of of, um, the rally [00:56:00] down below a huge a big turnout, huge turnout. And then down in the background, you've got, um, a speak out for women, and I don't know how many they are not not that many, All sitting very solemn. Um, they were watching a little bit of a do about Tracy Martin and the marriages and what's going on. And then the Then the speaker started it. It was quite sombre. I thought so. Um, yeah, a lot of a lot of older women in the room. A few few males, few men as opposed to what's been happening out here. Can [00:56:30] you describe what it's been like? Oh, I just think it's been an incredibly uplifting kind of experience. And we're hearing, um, trans voices are being uplifted. Uh, we're hearing what life is like for trans women, especially, um, through this process, because speak up for women they seem to be targeting, especially trans women and their kind of vitriol. So it's really, really nice to hear Trans Woman being uplifted, Um, and to just [00:57:00] be in support of them. Yeah. Yeah, and the and the and the Rainbow Community wrapping around, um, Trans, the trans community. Um, I. I just love what's happened tonight. Uh, the call is gone now. The weather's not that flash. I love it. The, uh, the goddess of weather or gods of weather opened up just as ours is finished. So, um, yeah, that's that's, you know, that's how it's meant to be, isn't it? How how does this compare to homosexual law reform? back in the eighties. So the same. [00:57:30] It's the same, but so totally different, you know, like I was around at that time. So I remember the all of the arguments that just like we're 50 years back where where we were with trans rights as where we were with queer rights 50 years ago, we've got, um you know, the the fear was that if we legalise homosexuality that we'll release all these predators and, um, they'll they'll, like, predate on our Children and they [00:58:00] will rape, and they will be really awful. And that's exactly what they're saying about trans folks now. And it's ridiculous. Yeah. How have you found it, Gareth? I've lost my voice. So funny. Must boys. This is what it's about. It's joyful, absolutely joyful expression. That's what it is. [00:58:30] Phil did this spring back memories. Oh, yeah. Um, it was a great night and, uh, the party atmosphere that we've got now, with people dancing and singing and so on, really rather wonderful. There's a sense here that we're not going to be stopped. And that's always nice to see. There's a a fantastic mix of both young and older activists here and It must just be really heartwarming to see these [00:59:00] new generations coming through. I mean it. It's disappointing that a few of the activists from the old days have, uh, gone across to a sort of transphobic position. Uh, but it's actually a rather small proportion of them. Uh, and if you think of the thousands of people in New Zealand who were involved in those earlier struggles, and I doubt that they'll get us a couple of score in New Zealand as a whole, uh, for that politics now, So it's [00:59:30] it's, uh, it really is quite, uh, heartwarming to see this gathering of people from different generations and different, different political traditions. And [01:00:00] that's right, man. Right. Nice. Right, right, right, right, right, right, [01:00:30] right, right, right, right, right. Yeah. My name is Tristan Cordelia. I'm a Wellington Trans woman. I was seeing the event tonight. Um, I'm feeling just, you know, amped up. I guess [01:01:00] I was feeling very nervous before the event. A little worried how it would go. I blew up the sound system before it even started, so we had to use a feedback in microphone. Uh, I didn't get to play the amazing playlist we had selected. Um, but every the crowd seemed to respond. Well, they were amazing. And now I just have all that energy, um, that we're gonna take over into the next things we're doing. Um, we're doing a public forum at Thistle Hall on the 26th of July. So that's we've just gotta feed into that. Um, yeah, I'm feeling good, though. I'm feeling like it went [01:01:30] well. Um, there was one moment where an anti trends campaigner tried to jump into the crowd. Um, got really rough rough with one of the wardens who was actually trying to protect her. Um, and I'm worried, knowing the way the anti trans campaigners do things that they'll try and spin it, Um, as if we were being roughed to them when it was the opposite. So I'm a little worried about that, and I'm disappointed that happens. But when you are going up against people who really, really hate you, then they are gonna try to do things like that. Um, other than that one incident and in [01:02:00] spite of the fact that we, like, messed up the sound system and had to just make things up on the fly. I feel like it went really well. The energy of the crowd was really good. Um, and I'm just seeing a lot of people who are living their lives, particularly mostly people who are younger than myself and who have have an understanding of what it means to be trans. Um, while they're still growing up, which is something that I really wish I had, which I didn't have. Um and so I just, like, am really feeling happy about people getting to be them through their true [01:02:30] Selves. That's what makes me really happy. Yeah, So that that's a I if somebody couldn't be here tonight, but really wanted to be here What? What would your message be to them? Um, don't be afraid to be yourself and support others who are struggling to be themselves. Lift each other up and care for one another. That well, I was at the stand up for women, um, meeting, um, organised in the Michael [01:03:00] Fowler Centre. And what what prompted you to go tonight? Because I'm a Marxist. So I am totally opposed to the oppression of any group of people. And I am opposed to people saying our rights are more important than you getting the same access to the same sorts of rights, although they're very smooth. They actually say we are for women are for Trans to have these rights, but they shouldn't [01:03:30] be the same as ours. So, yes, they should have space. But it's not a woman's space, even though they're a woman. So you went into the meeting as an opponent of the speak up for women tonight? Well, yes, I wanted to hear their arguments and, you know, it's a public meeting, but they limited. They were very careful and very shrewd. They said questions. Well, who's going to stand up there and just ask a question? You need to be able to speak to it As [01:04:00] soon as I started to speak. Dana Whitner knows me. She named me and she didn't want to ask me to speak. She tried to ignore me. Um, but as soon as I started to speak, you know, it was Shut down. Stop it. Can you describe what the atmosphere was like tonight? Well, the atmosphere was very, very middle class, very middle class professional women. A very articulate, [01:04:30] um, presenting right. Why? But they were absolutely not open to debate. Any debate now they did challenge. At the end, they challenged the woman. Beth Johnson said we challenged you to a debate. Well, yes, we were. What will you take away from tonight? Oh, that they're actually, um, very well healed. And they're very determined. [01:05:00] And they and our fight has got to be that we take them on on the issues that they've raised and defeat them. And that's going to have to mean that we've got to make sure our arguments are very clear, very strong and documented. Uh, I'm here because my sister Elle was heavily involved in organising this this event. And I wanted to support her because I knew that she was concerned about [01:05:30] how it would go. Can you describe, uh, the the feeling the crowd that was here tonight? I It was so positive and so, uh, so cohesive. You know, everyone was so together. I I was really positive place to be. Yeah, Look, I'm a straight middle aged white guy, and I just felt so happy to be here. I'm so glad I came out. Um I want these people to be my people. This is [01:06:00] the kind of crowd that I feel proud to have stood up with. So many more people came out than I'd been expecting. And it was great and really energetic crowd which dealt with its hecklers. Well, yeah, if somebody wanted to be here tonight, but couldn't be here tonight. W, what kind of words would you say to them? Um, your community stood up and gave fantastic representation. Sorry you couldn't be here, but people took care of it for you. Yeah, there was [01:06:30] a There was a great crowd, and it's pretty. You can come. You would have loved it, but there were. Yeah, people did it for you. So So what are you going to take away from tonight? Um, a sense that things are going ok and that the the Turks don't have that larger voice. Yeah, I'm gonna take away not only, uh, my beliefs that, [01:07:00] uh, what that trans rights are. Human rights is validated, but also that the crowd out here is much more fun than the crowd in there. Um, yeah. We need to normalise trans rights and queer rights. And also, um I'm really happy to be part of the struggle, and I kind of want to go to more events like this. And I feel kind of torn, because if we normalise these rights, we won't need to do this. And this was so much fun. [01:07:30] I'm here beneath the Michael Ler Centre and I can see a group of, uh, many diverse people of the community some trans flags and, um, other flags and and cards and things. Yes, And you, You yourself have got some flags as well. Yes, yes, yes, I do. Um, I, I am very trans friendly. I'm community friendly, Rainbow community friendly. Um, [01:08:00] I my daughter in law, is Trans, and I'm very proud of that. I work with a lot of trans folk in my work, and, um, I support it all. I'm an old feminist, inclusive of trans folk. So that's my stance, Really. That's why I'm here. Can you describe the feeling from tonight's event? I I'm actually amazed how many people there were, to be honest, um, before before the rain came and and before we finished? Um, [01:08:30] I. I don't know how many, but it was lovely to see a mix of people of genders, ethnicities, backgrounds, ages everything. I felt heartened by everything. It was very peaceful, great and very supportive. And the energy? There was so much energy here as well. I know. I know. It's lovely. Lots of young people. Um, I thought I'd better come and balance it out a little bit. With my age. I've got grey [01:09:00] hair. Um, and the energy is great. Very friendly, Very supportive. Very inclusive. I feel great about it. It's It's It's very uplifting. Yeah. Had you ever been to an event like this before? Uh, I'm an old activist from Europe, and, um, I haven't been on on events like for this purpose, but, uh, many, you know, peace events in in the seventies and eighties [01:09:30] and feminist events and all that. Yes. Yes. So if you had a message to, um, the stand up for women participants tonight in the Michael Fall Centre What? What would that be? Trans women are women. Totally. And I'm an old feminist, and I'm totally inclusive of trans all trans people. And I urge everybody who has been inside to think about that really hard, and it's a human [01:10:00] right for everybody.

IRN: 3430
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/35_anniversary_law_reform_discussion.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004621
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089915
TITLE: 35th anniversary panel discussion on homosexual law reform
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Chris Bishop; Elizabeth Kerekere; Fran Wilde; Judy O'Brien; Kevin Haunui; Trevor Mallard
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Chris Bishop; Elizabeth Kerekere; Fran Wilde; Homosexual Law Reform; Judy O'Brien; Kevin Haunui; Member of Parliament; Parliament buildings; Rainbow NZ Parliamentary Network; Trevor Mallard; homosexual; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; lesbian; pansexual; takatāpui; transgender
DATE: 8 July 2021
YEAR: 2021
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, people of every shape, size and sexual orientation, Gender identity, iwi and tax code. Welcome to the 35th anniversary of homosexual law reform. Thank you all for being here to celebrate [00:00:30] with us this morning. On this day 35 years ago, Parliament voted 49 to 44 to pass the law reform bill. My name is Judy O'Brien. I was born to Catholic parents three years before law reform. At the time, the path to law reform was brutal and divisive. Opponents of the bill were fired up and mean they used [00:01:00] AIDS to make the argument even harder and meaner and to condemn gay people. Uh, opponents described the bill as the thin end of the wedge. They knew that homosexual law reform was about more than just sex, that it was about a shift towards a more inclusive accepting society. And they didn't like that at all. 15 years ago, I attended a conference for queer students [00:01:30] for the 20th anniversary of homosexual law reform. I stood on the steps of Parliament and kissed my new boyfriend in public for the first time today, I'm legally married and legally female. A proud, pansexual transgender woman. This room is full of queer people full of heroes and quero allies who continue to strive for better outcomes for people with diverse sexual orientation, [00:02:00] gender identity and expression and sex characteristics. This is what the thick end of the wedge looks like. But we can get much thicker. Yes. Today we celebrate our rights to live freely our rights to love our rights. To express that love. We celebrate inclusion. [00:02:30] The flags that we raised this morning are a signal that our society has progressed. That we say yes to love that we say yes to freedom and that we are all included here, especially in parliament. 9. 2% of our parliamentarians are queer and that is a world record. So thank you for being here. Thank you for the work that you did to get us here. [00:03:00] But we have much more to do. We have three wonderful panel panellists joining us this morning. Um, Dame Fran Wild, the right honourable Trevor Mallard and Mr Kevin and I'd like to hand over to Dame Fran to share some reflections with us on homosexual law reform and your time. Thank you are these [00:03:30] They are on. Um um, and members of the diplomatic corps ministers MP and all your fabulous people. And I don't know how to say all you fabulous people in, but I learned shortly, Um, thank you all for [00:04:00] being here for the celebration today. Um, this, uh, is now part of the history curriculum in A and I am frequently approached by young secondary school students or their parents. Sometimes you know me and say, would you do an interview? And it makes me feel really old being part of the history. We used to be 10 66 and all that when I was in school. I actually was born also to [00:04:30] Catholic parents, but I was 30 something when this was happening. Um, So, um, when I offered to sponsor the bill, I really had no idea what it would what it would end up being like, uh, I should have thought about it a bit more deeply. It wouldn't have changed my view or my, um, response. But nonetheless, I might have been better prepared. Uh, I wasn't very well prepared for it. Um, I just want to talk a little bit about [00:05:00] the strategy that we used because this is very important for other issues as well. So, um, this was actually about changing public opinion. And what we had was a public that had been brought up to think of, um, gay men in particular, but also lesbians, um, as being, um, perverted child molesters. That's that was the stereotype that that that a lot of [00:05:30] New Zealanders had. So this was a public education campaign. Um, we needed the public in certain electorates to understand, uh, what this huge human rights black hole meant for New Zealand and to give their members of parliament permission to vote for it. When the bill was introduced in those days, they had, um what I would call a gentleman's agreement. And it was a gentleman's agreement because there weren't many women in Parliament. It was mainly men. [00:06:00] Still, um, that any private members Bill, as they were called then, was always given a first reading. So it was nothing was voted down on the first reading. It was given a sporting chance, and then it would disappear forever in the select committee. And at the time it was given the sporting chance we knew that we had 19 votes. Absolutely. That would see us take. That would go right through to the third reading, which wasn't very many. Certainly wasn't enough. So all [00:06:30] we then divided the MP S into different groups. So they were the ones that were lost causes. We would never get them to vote for us. We didn't worry about them. We did later on, actually, when? And I'll tell you a little bit in a minute. Um, but mainly we focused on those in the in. The middle group that we knew probably wanted to vote for it, but were too scared politically to do that. So we focused on them. And it was those electorates that we focused. The campaign on campaign was massive, many people and I want to acknowledge this, particularly [00:07:00] in the, um in the gay and lesbian community had for many years struggled with the, uh, the issue of, um, homosexual law reform and legalisation. And there had been many other attempts. And there were also a lot of liberal groups that were, um, also, um, behind the issue, and much work had been done for our campaign. We needed to bring all those groups together plus [00:07:30] find other allies. So we went to the religions, the religious groups that were supportive. We went to health people. Uh, we went to education people. And, um, we put together groups and did had and work programmes in the electorates of the MP S that we were targeting. Uh, and we needed, uh, the opinion leaders in those electorates to actually say to those MP S, it's OK for you to vote for this bill. Actually, we want you to. So, uh, it was actually a public education [00:08:00] campaign. And, uh, we wanted to change the 19 members who we knew were core supporters up to what we needed to actually get it through. We ran the campaign out of the whips office. My caucus had made the terrible mistake of making me one of their whips, um, to keep me out of cabinet, which actually was good, because had I been in cabinet, I wouldn't have been able to do this bill. So actually, in retrospect, it was probably quite a thing, and the whips office was also very [00:08:30] handy. Um, it gave me a lot of information that I needed. Um, but we ran a campaign out of there, and, uh, it was kind of like conducting the orchestra, you know? Not just for what we were talking about in Parliament and maybe to our colleagues, but what was happening around the country. Um, there was a massive media campaign, um, radio, print, media, television, when we could speeches, meetings, rallies. I didn't go to rallies because it was thought unsafe. Um and, [00:09:00] um, generally getting out as much as we could. There was no social media, and I say hallelujah to that. I mean, don't get me going on social media. It's such a destructive thing. I think now, particularly for young people. And we did not have to contend with social media, which made it much easier. Actually, I can't imagine it wasn't an easy campaign, but it would have been inestimably harder had we had social media. Um, the idea was to change the stereotype view of gay men and [00:09:30] the, um, what we needed was visibility. The real heroes of this campaign were the gay men who came out during the campaign. They were criminals. Um, many of them would have been in danger of losing their jobs. Um and losing their friends and a whole lot of other sanctions. But they knew that New Zealanders needed to know who they were recording, recording in progress. So, um, they were the They were the heroes of [00:10:00] the campaign because they actually put their, um, their often their jobs and their personal safety on the line to come out. And I just want to pay a tribute to them because that was really what was important for us at the time. Uh, yes, there were AIDS had emerged, and the anti used that as a reason for not doing gay law reform. We used it for as a reason for doing it because we knew that gay men would not present that health for health checks if they were criminals. So [00:10:30] every time the bill was in the house, which was every Wednesday for a long, long time, we needed to make sure all our votes were there. Uh, it was exhausting. Frankly, um, and, um, this was a cross party issue. This was not a labour party thing. There were people in the Labour Caucus who voted against it, and there were many nets who were very supportive of it. And I particularly want to acknowledge Catherine O'Regan, who did a lot of work. Um, so I one of the [00:11:00] things about being whipped was that I ran the leave book, so I knew who was going to be away. Um, and that was really helpful. And, um, we organised for the anti to be invited to obscure places in New Zealand every Wednesday. No, I'm not. I'm not sure whether they realised what was going on after they'd been invited to, you know, the Far north or Stewart Island or something on a Wednesday, Funnily enough to talk to some local [00:11:30] group. And, of course, uh, we always could find, um we always managed to give them a pair with somebody on our team who maybe wasn't going to vote for it either, but might have wanted a night off. So it was. I can say that now, a long time has passed. It was pretty handy, actually. Um, so the committee stages were probably the most difficult, because that was when um, I haven't even talk. I won't even talk about the petition, but the committee stages were were pretty ghastly. [00:12:00] And that was when they tried to change the words. And one of the big issues, of course, is the age of consent. And a lot of MP S who were kind of not quite there, said, Oh, well, if you just change it to 18 or 20 I'll vote for it. I went back to the gay community and said, Um, you know, this is what I've been told and they said, No, 16 or nothing, it's got to be absolutely equal. And I came back and said to my parliamentary colleagues at 16, and interestingly in the committee stages, the people opposed [00:12:30] to the bill voted for 16 for an age of consent because they thought that nobody would, in their right mind, would vote for a third reading for the bill with the age of consent of 16. So we got what we wanted in terms of the age of consent. Thank you. Um, all those people. Um, so the other thing was the I suppose I should talk about the petition. It was the most terrible time, and they had this kind of Nuremberg rally on the streets of on the on the steps of parliament, which actually worked against them [00:13:00] because people said, Oh, my God. You know, we've got this in New Zealand. Kids in uniforms, religious hymns, Um, you know, kind of almost military overtones. It was really, really bad. And, um, they they said they had. How many? You're gonna talk about this? I suppose you can talk about the petition. So many 100,000 biggest petition ever. But Trevor led a group of people who went through every single page, and we found many of them were just fraudulent. [00:13:30] Mickey Mouse. Mickey Mouse sign signed many times. And that, of course, was people who had been forced to sign in a group. And they didn't want to, but they just signed any old name. Um, but I I Look, there's so much to talk about. I just want to acknowledge people who I worked with. Um, there were a number of there were gay active groups in, um, the big cities and Auckland did, uh, they were very helpful. They, um I was up in [00:14:00] Auckland a lot because it was still even then was the biggest population centre a lot of electorates. Um, and they also raised money for the campaign. I have to say which was very helpful. Wellington, this is really classic. It's like Auckland and Wellington. Wellington were more, um you know, uh, intellectual and about their approach. They provided a lot of the material that we used. OK, so we had librarians, Phil and others, and and And they they they kind of ran there. And the Auckland and Wellington groups didn't always [00:14:30] see eye to eye. But that's how Auckland and Wellington are. Um, we also had, um, other groups in the community. Look, I can't mention them all. They were fantastic all around the country, and I particularly want to acknowledge people in small rural areas because it was really tough for them. Um uh, in Parliament, Trevor and Ruth Dyson, who wasn't in parliament then, uh, we actually the key people who ran the campaign, and we had a a number of our colleagues [00:15:00] who are really staunch supporters. Um, anne um Judy Keel. Um, where are you? Just talked about Judy outside? Yes, Thank you. Thank you very much too. And all. I just Look, I'm not gonna talk about everybody, um, but I do want to mention, as I said before, Catherine O'Regan who later on, um got through the human rights side of the bill, which many MP S voted against as a kind of insurance policy. They thought, Well, we have to vote for legalisation, [00:15:30] but with human rights side isn't so important. Well, of course it is. So we vote against that. So Catherine took up that. Have we got to where we want to yet? No, we haven't. Um, we actually, um I think are much more tolerant than we used to be. And and and And I mean, the make up of the parliament now is tribute to that. But frankly, um, we are far from being, um, instinctively tolerant. I think in a lot of [00:16:00] areas, OK, and I, particularly at the moment, think we have to do something, um, more organised. And this means the state in schools. I think kids are still being picked on and bullied, and it's really tough for them. Uh, when we did this, we didn't see many trans people. You know, we talked about the lesbian and gay community, which is what I've talked about. Now it's LGBT Q I et cetera the alphabet. And I can't I don't [00:16:30] know all the letters now But we realise now that much more. I think that sexuality is just a spectrum. And, um, you know, people should be able to be what they want to be. But, um, I think kids are still having a really tough time. And I would say to all your members of Parliament here, there's one thing you can do The kind of legacy of gay law reform would be to look at the education system and see how kids are treated. Um, when they're going [00:17:00] through these and it's bad enough as it is, teenage years and younger finding out who you are. But if you've got other issues as well and and the kids around you are not accepting, then I think that must be really hard. So I just want to thank everybody. Um, I want to finish with Des because Dez came into the office to help. He was one of many people that came in. Am I allowed to tell you a story, dear? Deers came in and, um, to help. He was a builder, and, um, [00:17:30] he came in and we had a lot of people on every night just doing all of this. Uh, we had thousands of letters. I signed out up to all the people envelope stuff, and you know what it's like. And, um, finally, one day, somebody said, Des wants to say something to you, and des was told me that he was actually gay, and I said, Oh, I had always just assumed that. And, you know, So this was kind of what happened. People [00:18:00] were So even before the bill went through, um, I think it was starting to make a difference. But I do want to acknowledge those guys who came out publicly. A lot of them were in, um, public, uh, roles. And actually, it made a huge difference. So, um, thank you all for celebrating this morning. Um, 35 years does seem a long time ago. Uh, but actually, there is still more to do, So we we haven't finished yet. [00:18:30] You said before that somebody had to do it, so thank you for being that somebody uh Kevin, Uh, you are an archivist. You have a a wealth of knowledge of history. What do you have to share with us this morning? Um [00:19:00] welcome, everyone. Uh, K. Yes, Archivist. I'm not too sure about that. Um, but I'm here for reasons I'm not entirely sure why, but I am, uh, chair of the lesbian and gay archivist of New Zealand. And I'm involved with, um uh, Trust LGBTI community organisation. [00:19:30] The elements that that I actually wanted to concentrate on in terms of my response to today was actually to acknowledge that the homosexual law reform was a key step. I believe in LGBTI Rainbow Communities are helping New Zealand to determine the society that we live in today. And I think that's a really important, um, legacy [00:20:00] that the, uh, people who enabled that change, um, left for us. You know, I think it's, um there are so many changes that are happening within New Zealand. But I also, you know, we celebrated this morning at breakfast. These are all things that have occurred since 35 years ago. Uh, and what I wanted to acknowledge was that [00:20:30] at the time of home sexual law reform according to what I understand, you know, New Zealanders were really challenged by the ethics and the morals of the society that we live in because we all come from different cultures and different ways of understanding what is right and wrong. Uh, and and so this, uh, reform taking away being discriminated as a homosexual challenged [00:21:00] individuals in our societies to think about them, um, very, very deeply. And those challenges, uh, I believe, opened up pathways for us, for our rainbow communities to start shining. So I look around the room today and I see our intersex community. I see our trans community. I see our gay community. I see our bisexual community. I see our community and I see all the other cultures [00:21:30] that make up, uh, our rainbow communities. Uh, our other, um, cultures within New Zealand are being tested around the morals and the ethics that each of us have been brought up with. And I guess the challenge going forward for, uh, our society is for government to help us, to work out a way of coming together in living with a common standard [00:22:00] that is, that is attainable for everyone and equal for everyone here. And so I think that's my message also to as New Zealand to to the world. That's what we bring. That's the nuance that we bring in terms of our society. And I think It's something that we need to share with our Pacific neighbours and help um, them to determine the types of societies that they want to aspire towards, [00:22:30] um, in the future. So, you know, there's lots of things going on at the moment that reflect the changes in our society. The Birth Deaths and Marriages Act, Human Rights Act, reform, um, terrorism, uh, act or, you know, all of those things that are that our rainbow communities are helping to shine a light on what is good and what is not too good from our perspective. [00:23:00] Those are the legacies, I believe, that have come from this reform. And, uh, and it's, uh it was hugely important. Uh, played a hugely important role as a step for our society to develop, and I acknowledge and applaud all of those who are involved. We weaving in complexity and nuance. Uh, where are [00:23:30] you going to take us from here, Trevor? Well, I I'm in relatively familiar territory because I've spoken after Fran. And generally what happens is there's an agreement about who's saying what which Fran ignored. It's not true. There is no agreement, Mr. Speaker. Um, so I, I think I just want to make a few points. And the the I think the first point that I'll make is that, you know, again, [00:24:00] AAA younger member of parliament. A younger person from a quite a conservative family background, Um, and someone without the gaar that, um, Fran, uh, has, um So I managed to spend a lot of my early part of my life just totally unaware of the fact of some of the people around me were gay. And and [00:24:30] that's and and And probably that was added to by a couple of, um, individuals Who, um who sort of I had contact with over the years. My father for a short time was a teacher in There was a young man he taught there, called Trevor Rope. Um, and and, uh, later, when [00:25:00] he was a very conservative share broker, wandering down Willis Street quite often with a group of friends and sometimes with me, Carmen would wave from the other side of the road and say Hi, Colin. I haven't seen you for a long time, which tended to cause a, um, a bit of a commotion. And And those who know Carmen know that Cameron wasn't quite, um, [00:25:30] And And there's another link there, too. And that, um even after I was married, I was still under age for going to the pub. But we went to the pub anyway. And the place that the only place basically you could go after the pub in Wellington those days was the balcony, uh, which had really good music groups and really good dancers. And it was only about on about the fourth time that I went there [00:26:00] that I, uh, understood the fact that they struck teasers were not women. Um, and one of the people there was Georgina and and so, you know, I. I just want a bit of forgiveness for being 35 years ago, subject to, um some stereotypes which were not, you know, weren't quite there. Um, I say just a little [00:26:30] bit about the I. I was one of those marginal seat MP S one of the in those days. We didn't have lists. You people were voted in and out, and we're all told that we were you know, not only going to go to hell but lose our seats as well. Uh, by by groups of people, we had a lot of pressure at home. I had, uh, by then a four and five year old because the campaign went on for about 18 months. Um uh, child, we did. No one had cell phones in and no one had answer machines. [00:27:00] Um, people answered the phone, and my baby would answer the phone, and people would say just obscene things to her, and it was just awful. We got the solution in the end, and it involved a whistle, and we and we gave her a list of words, and if anyone said any of those words, she blew this high pitched whistle in the phone and we worked out There must have been a limited group of people, Uh, because those phone calls dropped away, [00:27:30] Um, over a over a period of time. Um, I mean, Fran indicated you know, some of the, uh, the the tactics, I My role was mainly to do numbers. Um, I worked as an accountant. I knew how to do. We didn't have proper computers for spreadsheets in those days. We had division lists and coloured felt to pens. [00:28:00] Uh, and we had series and series and series of these on the different, uh, on the different issues. And it was my job to do to do numbers, because I'm thinking our friend is in charge of she's in charge of our pay, but friends, friends never been good at numbers. You know, She she she was, um she was a very optimistic person. Um, and and and at times, we did need to, you know, be absolutely realistic to make [00:28:30] sure that we that we were going to get the numbers. Um, the It became obvious quite early, Um, that the human rights part of the bill would not succeed, as Fran said later went through, um, sail through the parliament when Catherine O'Regan promoted it. I think six or seven years later, uh, and and and But what that meant was that, [00:29:00] um there was nothing in there, which was of any assistance to the lesbian community at all. So after after that, it was sort of it was, like, good will on the part of the lesbian community that helped keep the coalition going together. And I think that was something which was, you know, incredibly appreciated, um and and and not and not that straightforward, because you know, [00:29:30] like as I indicated, or I was talking to someone earlier, the, uh, Jane, maybe the the lesbian community was divided. Then, um, and and I'm told that it, uh well, I know that it still is on lots of lots of issues, lots of splits and divisions. Um, the Fran again indicated there was a number of people who, um voted for different ages for 18 and in and for 20. Um, some of [00:30:00] that was some of the people deeply believed in it, and and others saw that as a as a cover within the 18 and 20 voters, there were people who really wanted it to go through at 16, but felt like they could. This could be something that they could do to give a signal that they weren't quite as radical. Um, to their communities. Uh, and and so [00:30:30] there was, You know, there was a lot of There's quite a lot of people who would who tried to take some cover. Um, as we worked our way through that and that included some of those people, several of whom did it with our permission. No, we worked it through work with them. and we knew we had the numbers. And so we said, you know, in the interest of getting the legislation through overall in the package and people in good shape, [00:31:00] it was OK to do that in the committee stages, to vote, to vote for for 18, and for 20 came back, Um, for the for the third reading, Um, we knew absolutely. We were going to win by three. Fran had been told, and, you know, she kept on telling me, and I didn't rely on it that we were getting an extra one effectively were told [00:31:30] a proxy vote. There was someone who had organised someone who had not been voting in the general direction of passing the legislation through much of the legislation suddenly turned up in the eyes lobby, Um, on the on the night and that was, you know, that that made the difference between three and five, you know, plus one minus one. Um, we also had, uh, two, national members [00:32:00] of parliament, whose electorates were strongly opposed to it, But who had family members? Um, brothers, I think in both cases who were who were who were gay and they indicated that they were not prepared to see the legislation fail. They went to the end of the lobby and waited for a signal that the legislation was going to pass and then went and voted against [00:32:30] it. Um, so I think I think all of what I'm trying to say in this is that for people involved, it was It was hard. It was It was awful politics. Fran might have built communities around the country who were supportive. I don't think we ever got above 32% support in the polls for the passing of the bill. This was a bill that was at the time, not wanted [00:33:00] by the majority of New Zealanders. It was a it was a matter. It was a matter where Fran and and I think you haven't mentioned Michael Cullen, who was also Michael Cullen. Who who who was, um, acting involved Ruth? Ruth Ruth not only helped run the campaign, she sort of ran Fran's house in order to, you know, looked after the kids and made sure there was food and all of that sort of stuff to free Fran up [00:33:30] to do the work because Fran was the person who could convince people and that, and it freed Fran to do that. Uh, and then there was, uh Then there was Catherine Catherine O'Regan, who was the liaison into the, uh, into the national party. So I think I think for me, it was it was an education. Um, there's an education to how parliament worked. There's an education to people. Um, [00:34:00] but what has happened since the freedom to be oneself that has flowed from that for me has just been absolutely fantastic. Thank you. Thank you all for your for your wisdom, for your recollection. Uh, and for your calls to action, uh, we have time for maybe one or two questions if there are any questions [00:34:30] that anyone wants to shoot at our camp. Mr. Speaker, it sounds like you were, um, somewhat oblivious to the reality that the LGBT Q I community was facing at the time. And it was such a difficult and unpopular battle in the beginning. So how were you convinced to join and and fight for this community? Um, I'd I mean, I've followed the issue since 1975. You know, [00:35:00] um, Vin Young was, uh was an MP. I knew uh, Margaret. Really? Well, I knew Audrey, who actually works here. The the the for the herald. Uh, world And and And I think I was there intellectually. Um, you know, II. I knew the law was wrong and had to be changed and would have supported in 1975. It's just that I didn't think that I knew any gay people [00:35:30] that was a pretty general, actually, because people would you know it It is it. You know, I mean, I, um you know, I'm the grandfather of a couple of kids from a gay relationship or a lesbian relationship. Uh, and and and it's just it is It's hard to believe. Now, the way [00:36:00] you know, the world has changed, and and, um, there was some stuff, a lot of stuff that was hardly there at all. And then there was a whole world I didn't know about. So it's not only do we know about the world but more now, you know, Although, although I keep on learning um um, but but things have changed as well. And that was classic. Most New Zealanders didn't think they knew any gay people. Uh, they just [00:36:30] didn't and Then they suddenly found out that their son or their brother or in some cases, their husband or the guy they worked with or whatever all these people were gay. Oh, I mean, it was just that revelation. It was a revelation, actually, Or or or for me, or for me, the, you know, the the two women who lived in the corner house, Um, down the street from, you know, where I grew up, Um, weren't just flatmates, but I think I also wanted to add that, you know, it was a time [00:37:00] and struggle for, um that heralded the reclamation of traditions. So, you know, from a Maori perspective, gay people, there's been people have always been there, so, you know, it's just highlights the it highlights our history as well. And the struggles of, uh that comes with that. I think today the continued fight for recognition of transgender rights still [00:37:30] shows up every week where I meet people who say, Oh, you're the first trans person I've ever met. Now I am not that so we have tumbled. One more question. Um, um, I was just wondering, um, I for for anybody to answer this, but Um, just like, I'd like to hear your thoughts on how you think, Um, this this law is, like related to to, like, other colonial laws [00:38:00] in general. And how, like, yeah, like how? How like changing a law like that is is like it is like a Really? It is based on these, like colonial laws and, like, they're really throughout our whole culture here. So, yeah, I just like to hear your thoughts. I can say something about that. That's really important. Um, we knew that if we if we had not succeeded, then that wave of ultra conservative Christian [00:38:30] fundamentalism really, which was pushing the anti, would roll back a lot of the other laws that we had already managed to just move a little bit and have subsequently due to a whole lot of other people have moved a lot more. So women's rights, you know, there was there were huge issues then about things like rape and marriage and, you know, domestic violence, et cetera, And the same people who opposed gay law reform also opposed all of those changes. And [00:39:00] it was almost like, um, this was the pivot. I was looking back on it think our society was gonna go one way or the other, And thank God we went this way because, frankly, that opened the way for a lot of other things. But also, it meant that some things that we had already achieved were not pushed back. So there is a relationship. And the, um particularly the fundamentalist Christian lobby who were quite strong in the case of the law reform [00:39:30] bill, were funded from the US. And they had speakers over here, and it was a big campaign. They would have just moved in a big wave across a whole lot of other issues as well. And that would have set New Zealand society back hugely. So, um, for me, that was a later realisation during the campaign where I began to see that you know, there are other things at stake here, too, actually, um, and they were linked for sure, and that's about how society manages itself [00:40:00] and how it sees itself and what it wants its political leadership to do to reflect that. So it was really, really important. I think you can think of the opponents and you think Brian and then you think times 1000. You know, he he's a kind, compassionate soul compared with, uh, the the leadership, the evangelical leadership at the time, you know, [00:40:30] thank you very much. Thank you all for joining us. Uh, I'm going to now invite Doctor Elizabeth and Chris Bishop from our cross Parliamentary Rainbow Network to close the panel. And then we'll share a screening of the Rainbow Voices documentary. Yeah, OK, [00:41:00] I have heard Fran and Trevor speak many times over the 35 years since I was a young person with the megaphone leading our march in Dunedin against homosexual law reform. But it's very, very different hearing it now that I'm in Parliament and especially the strategies that so I've taken a lot of notes, um, and to thank, uh, our crew who's put this together and especially lewis' office who did most of the heavy lifting for this event? Uh, 35 [00:41:30] years is a really, really long time. But there are still people right now who are suffering massive discrimination. And so I just want to acknowledge that over this time that the sites of struggle have moved and that for a lot of us who are lesbian and gay who have come into a relatively privileged place in this society. We must We must put our energy and all our effort behind promoting the rights now of our Trans non-binary and, um, intersex. [00:42:00] This year is gonna be a tough year. This year is going to be a tough year for our we have and and I'm proud to say that. And it says in the record books that the two biggest petitions in this country were the ones for the homosexual reform, both of them completely unverified. I'm proud that in this country now, it was our conversion therapy, uh, petition with nearly 100 and 60,000, uh, signatures in one week. [00:42:30] That is the official verified, uh, largest petition of all time in this country. Now, this year, we're looking at conversion therapy legislation we're looking at and marriages, um, Relationship Registration Act. A lot of ugliness is gonna come up again, and we need to really, really support the efforts, especially I look at IN not funded that, but they are holding up the voice of of intersex in this country and around the world. So it's like we those of us who have flash [00:43:00] jobs. Think about where you want to make donations. Think about how you can help. Uh, we need to make sure. And I think if we can get the homosexual law, um, not the the Human Rights Act amended to acknowledge the rights of people with diverse genders, uh, gender expression, gender identity, and sex characteristics in there. Preferably not in the context of hate speech. I prefer that we looked at this and the rights of our people in the context of health and well being and and based on Waitangi that acknowledges the [00:43:30] in this country. So having said all of that, I had to get that all out. Um, thank you all for coming. Um, and I'll pass you to do whatever you want. I don't know why. I don't think I need one. hey, can I just start by acknowledging Lua? Um who's, uh, one of the co-chair of the Rainbow Network with Elizabeth and myself and also her office. But also we and the team from Parliament. We've got the chief executive [00:44:00] here as well. Great to see you here. Um, is it my job, uh, along side E to really thank the pan for their insights. Um, and Elizabeth talks has talked about some of the other battles that are to come because, you know, I, I was, uh, four in 1986 and three and four in 1986 and seven. And it's astonishing to to look back. Um, you know, 35 years ago, I've read the I'm a bit of a parliamentary geek. I've read the I've read the [00:44:30] debates. I've I've seen the the history books and, um, you know, I've only been an MP for 6. 5 years now, and I just can't imagine uh, the, uh What it would have been like back in the eighties. I. I actually just can't imagine. I mean, 800,000 people allegedly, you know, signed the, um, signed the petition. Um, back then, um, you know, the the the speaker talked about the the names, the made up. But you know that that's a lot of people. [00:45:00] Um, and it's not a perfect analogy by any stretch of the imagination at all, but I think about the battles in the last parliament around euthanasia. Um, which was really tough for quite a few people. Uh, in the in this place. Um, obviously a very imperfect analogy, but I just made the point around the pressure that comes on people, um, in this place, who are the MP S? Um, the the emails and the phone calls and the social media and the, um [00:45:30] the, uh the hostility that comes towards people. Uh, and, you know, it would have been way worse, uh, back in the eighties, and so I just want to thank, uh, Trevor and Fran in particular for sharing their insights. And just with a view to the battles ahead that Elizabeth, uh, doctor Kerry care has made reference to. I think there's two insights that I took from the the presentations. The first was, um, bravery, that actually, uh, we're sent here [00:46:00] as MP S and representatives to ultimately do the right thing. And sometimes doing the right thing means going against what the vast majority of people want. And actually, to do that, you have to be brave. And I've just been reflecting on that a little bit. Um, because there's going to be a bit of bravery required from a lot of people, uh, in the community, but also, um in parliament in the next, uh, couple of years, I reckon. And the second thing is, um, just the importance of, uh, personal stories [00:46:30] being able to make a difference, Uh, in, uh, particularly when it comes to persuading MP S to do the right thing. Uh, personal stories and personal reflections, Uh, and personalising the debate, uh, really does make a difference. And I think that's something that, um, we're gonna have to think about in the next, uh, few months and a couple of years ahead. Um, I'll be there, uh, fighting hard alongside, um, doctor, uh, and and the rest of the cross party radio network. 35 [00:47:00] years is a long time, Uh, and we've come a long way, but there's still a long way to go. Um, so it's wonderful to have you all here at parliament and, uh, just, um, want to thank the panel for their insights and their reflections. Um, and thank you very much for your, um, back then. But also your continued work today. Thank you very much.

IRN: 3428
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/takataapui_taonga_at_te_papa.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004620
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089914
TITLE: Takatāpui taonga at Te Papa
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Isaac Te Awa
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; 2020s; Carmen Rupe; Claire Regnault; Elizabeth Kerekere; Isaac Te Awa; Kāi Tahu; Kāti Māmoe; Lynette Townsend; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; Ngahuia Te Awekotuku; Ngāpuhi ki Whaingaroa; Rotorua; Stephanie Gibson; Tūtānekai and Hinemoa; Waitaha; takatāpui
DATE: 6 July 2021
YEAR: 2021
LOCATION: Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa, 55 Cable Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Mātauranga Māori curator Isaac Te Awa talks about takatāpui taonga held in the Mātauranga Māori collection at the Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So my name is Isaac. I am the curator at uh and I descent from and wait in the South Island and on my father's side of the far north. Uh, I come across the term, uh, probably in the late nineties, and at the time, um, it wasn't a common term, but it was the term that was being reclaimed by Maori and specifically the term Taku [00:00:30] I heard about it, uh, was associated to the story of and and I remember hearing the story and to after he married, lamented his and I was talking about his intimate companion of the same gender. When you say it was being reclaimed in the 19 nineties, who was, um, who was kind of spearheading that. So from [00:01:00] what I understand, um, it was pioneers like Elizabeth who sort of even earlier than the nineties was in the eighties, that they really sort of rediscovered that term. And, uh, in its vanilla understanding, if if you were to google it, it talks about Takata, uh, being a companion of the same sex, Uh, but in a broader sense Now, um, it's understood to be anyone, um who doesn't identify as heterosexual [00:01:30] in the Maori community. So it's, uh, a large sort of layer of the Maori community that can identify with that. And that's another complex layer in the rainbow community as well. And so I guess for people who finally heard that story and realised that there was something that had been lost from our culture that they actually fit into that was normalised precolonial. Uh, it was something that could really relate to and identify. So, uh, it would be people, um, Maori who didn't identify with the normal, [00:02:00] um, gender or minority norms, Um, that were common at the time. What does mean to you? So to me, um, I take it for me. I really take it as anyone who doesn't identify as heterosexual. So, um, it is that huge, complex community and lay layers of people who really don't fit into the norm. Um, or the norm is, I guess straight society would define it. Uh, so, yeah, is anything? So if you [00:02:30] identify as anything that is not straight, you are. If you are a Maori and welcome, we're sitting, uh, within the National Museum to Papa today, and I'm wondering, does Papa have in the collection. I think really to understand that is you kind of have to have a con. You kind of have to have an understanding of the collection as a whole. So recognising [00:03:00] that there's 27,000 in the Maori collection. Uh, so there is 100 lifetimes and 100 years of research in there. Uh, and when we're looking at the or the that are collected, pre contact, uh, they were collected without the narratives or association that made them special to people. So Well, I think undoubtedly there is in our collection is identifying them can be more complex than that. And it's recognising that collecting was done, Um, primarily in [00:03:30] the 18 hundreds, Um, usually by white European males who identified as straight. And they were interested in things that fit, um, popular narratives at the time. So there was the dusky Maori maidens and the dry feather cloaks. Um, it was the noble savage warrior with his weapons. Uh, so we have great representation of those things, but we don't have great representation, um, of anything to do with, uh, um, Children and the toys they played with maternal health childbirth. [00:04:00] Uh, the recent revival of the The Baskets. Babies sleeping. We don't actually have one from pre contact in the collection. It was something that wasn't considered important. Uh, And now, when we look at the history of Taku, which we know is actively suppressed by missionaries, uh, even if there is in there that, uh, are associated with, um, that they're not going to have those narratives attached to them. Uh, what I can tell you is [00:04:30] that those do exist in other places. Uh, there is a waka, which is a treasure chest or kind of looks like a little, um, jewellery box. There's one in the Auckland museum that depicts several females engaging in different sex acts. Um, and it's in LA with, so it's it's a precious object. So it's something that a lot of attention was paid paid to. And there's one in the British Museum that has the same depictions of men. And so we know that those Tonga are out there. [00:05:00] Um, and there's probably more stories about those too. Um, than there is actual physical evidence. So there are stories of which were son in half to, um, take the pretty part, um, and leave the things that were unpopular. Um, like anything that depicts yeah. So they were actively destroyed, hidden and discouraged from being collected as well. And that's just part of the suppression that came along with colonisation. Can you recall [00:05:30] the first time you actually set eyes on those two? You've just talked about to actually see a physical representation of Ah, yeah, So I've actually physically seen the one in the Auckland Museum and it's beautiful. It's stunningly carved, and there is a lot of attention to detail as well. So what we do know is that pre contact Maori were sex positive. And I say that in the sense that sex wasn't seen as anything [00:06:00] as taboo or as a natural part of life was just a fact. Um, and that's the attitude that's carried on through Maori art as well. Uh, and the one in the British Museum, I've only ever seen photos of it, but again, it's the same. It's a complex piece of art, and it was really special to someone, um, and it normalises narratives that we've already well, that we've been taught not to be comfortable with. Um, so they were out there so um, now has written about both, and I know she has got [00:06:30] quite a few articles and stuff as well. Um, so for anyone who's interested in having a look at them, um, they're out there. We briefly mentioned collectors, and I wonder, do you think the collections actually tell us more about the collectors than about the actual I think, for pre, uh, pre contact that were collected by collectors? Uh, it's kind of a two edged sword at one point. We're grateful because we have so much representation [00:07:00] that survived in private collections. But it's not true representations of the whole scope of what life was really like pre contact. So it does speak to collectors and what was popular and what they could trade and what they could sell. Uh, but representation as a whole is something that we continue to have to work on, and it's just a really important to look and understand that we were more than weapons or stone tools or pretty pieces of pono is that there's a complex system of life that existed [00:07:30] pre contact and not all of that was collected or the stories about it, uh, that are told now are not necessarily truthful or correct. So it's about challenging existing narratives and broadening people's understanding. Can you tell me who who were the main collectors at the time? So Webster Kenneth Webster is someone that we have a huge collection from, Uh, we have a huge collection from a man named [00:08:00] Oldman who existed never actually come to New Zealand but lived overseas. Um, in England had a house full of from New Zealand and the Pacific. And there's stories about him in World War Two. during the air raids, him and his wife would sit on the roof and pour buckets or put it down whenever there were fires. And because he did that his house was the only one that survived in the neighbourhood. Um, And when he died, uh, his all went up for auction and they were brought by the New Zealand government and spread [00:08:30] between the four main museums. And they are some of the oldest Tonga that we have in our collection. A lot of them are collected by cock as well. Uh, so it is those collectors who did keep things safe. Um, and we can learn a lot from them, but also recognising that they are other things out there as well. They tell their own story. And you were saying it also about missionaries. So there was a strong missionary Enforce? Yeah. So part of the colonisation process in a [00:09:00] did involve missionary. So it involves setting up Christian missions in schools. Uh, one of the things that happened there is we see a lot of carvings that have removed noses and removed penises or genitalia. Uh, we also see a lot less carving of women. Um, from that time period after contact with missionaries. Uh, so when we look at the removal of the nose or the, uh, for common Maori greeting of the or the sharing of breath, um, it wasn't really [00:09:30] understood by early missionaries, so it was seen as a form of witchcraft. Um, so cutting the nose off was one thing, and they're not nicely cut off. They're actually quite brutally hacked off. Um, and penises were the same. So anything sexually obscene? Um, was removed. And for me, when I look at carvings like that and in Astori, there is a corner that has three of them. Uh, it's about stripping spiritual identity and sexual identity. Um, so it could be rebuilt in the European context. [00:10:00] Um, and this was done under the age, um, before the church was important to a lot of Maori, because today it is, um, but it sort of come as a consequence, um, of things, um, in this case, spiritual and sexual identity. And there's still consequences that we live with today and II I could imagine retaining the Tonga, but actually defacing it. It is really, um, an assertion of power, isn't it? Absolutely. [00:10:30] So it's, uh, these are ancestral representations, um, of people. So these are ancestors that would have been really important to people. Uh, the other thing about these three in particular, um, that I'm talking about is they're all from different areas around New Zealand, so and they're all from different time periods. So what that tells us is that this was something that was happening over the whole country. Um, recently, we did a back of house tour, um, with [00:11:00] a and they come through back of house with the intention to write something that reflected on their own identity and experience. And it was these three pieces that esa chose to write about, um, seeing similarities of their own identity. Um, and the mutilation to the body parts. Um, so they wrote a poem for us, which has recently gone on to te papa LGBT Q I plus hub. Um, and it's about reclaiming a lot of those narratives, Uh, but [00:11:30] also not hiding that they've happened that they still have an effect on people today. And so they what? These have been defaced. Uh, they still have stories and experiences and things that they can teach us. Are you able to tell me a wee bit more about the, um, the the LGBTI hub that that you have on on the website? Yeah. So the LGBT Q I plus Hub, uh, is basically the brainchild of two of our history curators who [00:12:00] have collected a lot of rainbow representation. Um, over the probably the last 30 years. So what you're seeing is the life experience, um, of two passionate curators who have worked for a really long time that want to share stories. Um, recognising there is a colonial institution. Um, representation hasn't been strong here in the past. Uh, so it's figuring out those things that we have, um that we can use to profile people and tell their stories. Uh, one of the consequences [00:12:30] of that was that we recognise that there wasn't a lot of representation in the Maori. Uh, so having a come in and working with some people in our community to see how we can increase that representation is, uh, something that's been really important to us. Um, And I've got to recognise, um, step in for their work and the LGBT Q I plus hub, um, and working with Maori communities in general, because if it wasn't for them, we wouldn't have the representation [00:13:00] that we have here of, um or, um, Steph's work with the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. So it's they they have an excluded representation of Maori or lift it up to the Maori curators to collect. Um and I think as an organisation, it's important to recognise that representation needs to be carried by all levels here. It can't be something that's just put into a pigeon hole and lift to one person. Otherwise, it's always gonna be biassed. So when you find connections [00:13:30] that are or relationships that are possibly Taku, how do you record those in, um, the collection management systems. How do you note that? I think there's a few. Historically, there's been a few. There have been objects that have been collected by Takata makers, and I think it's really important to note that while the makers were they weren't necessarily collected because of that. So sometimes it was for aesthetic [00:14:00] reasons. Um, but for me in the catalogue, I think the main thing to note is that them being Taku adds to their life experience and their art experience. So it adds the Maori or their life force to the uh so it enhances it. So recognising that these objects need to be collected, um, knowing that them being Taku adds to it not in spite of them being Takata, that they can produce something of beauty. Uh, it's [00:14:30] more complex. It's recognising the holistic whole of a person. Uh, the other problem, sometimes we run into in the collection, is that some of our makers have passed away. So when we identify them as makers, um, sometimes their living descendants and family aren't comfortable with that. So we have to find ways that where the information is there, but it's not necessarily a public view. Um, that will hurt a lot of their relatives. Uh, so how I would approach [00:15:00] it now is by having the conversation and asking and seeing what people are comfortable with representation. Uh, seeing what stories? They want to be out there, uh, and trying to tell a whole story. And that's easy to do from the start, rather than looking backwards and trying to add it on later. Are you aware of, um, families that do feel that that shame or that they just don't want to recognise the the the the kind of There are a few examples, and, um, it [00:15:30] is sad, but it was also, um, recognising that people know different layers and different experiences of a person. Um, and that's what makes up the whole, uh so it's a fine line respecting someone's wishes and then having something out in the public just because we can. This, um, conversation reminds me very much of, uh, an event here at about a year ago. It was Chris Brickle and Will Hanson talking about what makes a queerer object. [00:16:00] And is it the maker? Is it the person that uses the object is it where the object is placed. Um, do you have those kind of same discussions in terms of, Oh, absolutely. And it is all of the above. Or sometimes it's that take to an object because they feel that it represents them, even though it may not be made by a person. Uh, identity is complex. If it's anything and how we identify a is [00:16:30] how it's really up to the community, they choose their and they choose what has significance to them. I'm also reminded of, um, didn't you do a tour during pride with with the Maori collections? Um, I did and And that if there's anything I want people to take away is that, uh, the history of collecting, um, but also recognising that there's a lot of duality in. So on one [00:17:00] of those tours, I was lucky enough to have Yuki there, and no one actually told me that Yuki was there and we talked about gender being. I identified it as Duel and Yuki's like No, no, it's more like a circle. It's like, Oh, I like that. And later a friend of mine was like, No, no, no. It's more like a spider Web. So it's recognising that while there is this duality of gender in Maori to that it is complex. It is like a spider you can land on anywhere in the spectrum. [00:17:30] And we do see that on our, um the essence of is that it is male and female, and it's the layers that make a hole. So we see WAKA from the above view, um, are feminine. It looks like a vagina. Um, from the side view, they're male, it's long, and we see that in where the shell component, um is feminine represents the female opening of the, uh, the mouthpiece is male, um, which is long [00:18:00] and made of wood. And the stories that come along with that, uh, for the for example, the shell trumpet is a daughter of a sea who fell in love with the tree and the daughter of Tanya Man. So both elements are represented in the, um and we see that right through to all through, um, our collections. So it's getting people who come in and pride to recognise that nothing, um, was ever as simple, um, as male and female. [00:18:30] Everything was elements that added to a whole Another thing I like to talk about on those tours is I call it object bouncing. So it's one favourite thing I like to talk about is the ships now, which in the day having a nail and being able to hammer two pieces of wood together was amazing. It saved time. So they were real popular objects. They were used for carving. Um, they were used for fishing hooks. Um, but they [00:19:00] were also the most common object that was traded in the sex trade. Uh, and because of that, we have our blood borne illnesses. Um, our syphilis. So even stories like that and the story of disease can be bounced off an object as simple as a ship. Now, um, so it's finding Well, we may not have strong representation. It's finding stories that people can really identify with, and they give a sense of history. Um, how things have changed. Um, what may have been lost, but also reclaiming our identity [00:19:30] within those stories as well. You've mentioned a number of the the the WAKA. Are there other instances you know of, um of that would directly relate to Taku and whether it's in role or form or I think physical. Uh, the most representation physical representation that we can look at and like, recognise the is in a [00:20:00] carving, and that's because it purely because it lasts the longest, um, carvings out of wood and stone are going to be a lot around a lot longer than woven objects. Um, but a lot of our stories in are carried. A lot of them are actually carried through missionary accounts, uh, through stories of like and, um reclaiming those knowledge that have sort of been suppressed or looking into and those and those stories [00:20:30] that are handed down. And that's where we find the most because and that's really the area that a lot of researchers have chosen to explore. Um, that said, um because of the history of museum collection and knowing that there is thousands and thousands of objects, uh, it a different set of eyes may turn up something different. Um, when you have a collection that has been catalogued by people, primarily European people in the 19 forties, Uh, even if there is representation [00:21:00] of, if they seen it, they wouldn't have written that down. So it takes a fresh set of eyes and new people to actually go through those collections and explore them. Which is the other reason bringing people in on pride is so important. It's recognising that they may see something different that I don't see and vice versa. And we could actually say the same thing about the, um, some of the other collections within Papa and that, I mean, prior to homosexual law reform, you know, in the eighties, with, uh, [00:21:30] things would have been catalogued with a kind of a homosexual slant. Oh, exactly. The legacies that we really live with, uh, and, um, are obligated to undo as well as part of our role is to fully explore our collections. Um, they can tell more stories than even. We realise it's looking at everything with those different eyes and sharing with the public as well, who may reinterpret them in a different light. So how do you go about say, um, decolonizing? [00:22:00] Um, the cataloguing of, uh, it's an endless job. So priority number one for me is if we acquire anything new to be really honest and to really be really thorough and complex about how we catalogue and what stories we attach and put in there. Um, but for me, really, it's every record that I go into. I try to leave it in a better state than when I found it. But it is it. It's [00:22:30] 100 year project that will keep going. And to be honest, I don't know if that work can ever really stop, because who knows what biases I have now that people may identify in another 100 years. So I think it's just one of those ongoing things. It's part of being a curator and working in a museum. And then those stories always need to be interrogated and brought forth and looked at again from different lights. So as a curator, are you consciously or proactively bringing in? Now [00:23:00] we are so since, uh, the LGBT Q I plus Hub and recognising that we didn't have strong Maori Tata representation Collecting is guided by a collection strategy, and Taku is something that wasn't on it. So something we've recently reviewed and added, um, and those Tonga reviews or those collection strategy reviews are really crucial to identifying and bringing in those gaps in our collection, because [00:23:30] if it's not in the strategy, it won't get collected. It's not that it won't get collected. It's more that, uh, having something in the strategy that really identifies an area really gives us the authority and power to go out and have a look for it. Um, it's something that collection strategy, they guide our collecting. Um, we can bring a lot of things, but it's, um, identifying it as a primary area. Uh, is something that's really important? Uh, yeah, [00:24:00] for you. What? What are the most significant here at te Papa? So for me, So I'm I'm biassed. I come from a background of weaving, so I love weaving. So my favourite are what I like to call transitional. So they're the that come from the early period of contact with Europeans. Uh, so out of this era, I see there's a particular cloak that is woven from kiwi feathers, very traditional. [00:24:30] Um, but what it also has is little flecks from a peacock tail woven through it. So it kind of has this effect of glitter that rolls through it. So it's a new interpretation of something that was woven pre contact, um, with a new flair. So it's that recognising that in the only thing traditional about them is innovation. The drive to use new materials or incorporate things that can tell different stories that can make something new and unique. [00:25:00] Uh, there's a similar cloak that is a It's what we call a kayak. So it's all about the demonstration of skill, and this one is his wool of every colour you can possibly imagine woven through it, Um, and it's what we call Berlin wool. It's the wall that's picked out of hats and blankets. Um, so what you see there is somebody who had a pre contact colour palette of black, white, brown and yellow, and they just have access to vibrant colour for the first time. And they create [00:25:30] these new and unique beautiful objects. And the other time that are the special ones for me, because they they show that our people have always evolved and moved. Um, but we're creative and patient at the same time. Ju just finally, I'm wondering there are lifetimes of work here at Papa and going through the collections in 100 years time. How would you like to be seen by the people looking back [00:26:00] to your time? Oh me, I guess the fundamental thing about working with collections is that it's not about you. So the job of curators is to tell the stories of objects and historically that's been done by people writing about things that they have no experience on. So ideally, I would like to be the person that empowers the community to talk about their own stories rather than the person who sits here [00:26:30] in the institution and writes about communities without even talking to them, which is historically what's been done. So if I can help facilitate that, I'm happy.

IRN: 3425
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/healthy_relationships_and_consent_launch.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004618
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089912
TITLE: Healthy Relationships and Consent launch
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Bex Fraser; James Prendergast; Jeseka Christieson; Logan Cotter; Marama Davidson; Quincy Ngātai; Sandra Dickson; Slay Way
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bex Fraser; Black Castle; Hamilton; Hohou Te Rongo Kahukura - Outing Violence; James Prendergast; Jeseka Christieson; Logan Cotter; Marama Davidson; Quincy Ngātai; Sandra Dickson; Slay Way; Waikato Queer Youth; Youth; youth
DATE: 26 April 2021
YEAR: 2021
LOCATION: Black Castle, 9 Ward Lane, Hamilton
CONTEXT: For many years, community consultation inside the Waikato has highlighted that young people in Rainbow communities wanted support from Waikato Queer Youth (WaQuY) around healthy relationships. WaQuY was successful in applying for funding and approached Hohou Te Rongo Kahukura – Outing Violence to co-develop a project designed to support healthy relationships for young people in Rainbow communities.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, my name is Quinta. I did buy a eat him or date him. Pronouns. I have been youth mental. I'm 18. A youth. Um, I have been a youth mental here at work for the past four years. I think it will take once you once you come here for one session, you never leave. You're stuck here, but you can't complain. Bye. Yeah, Very grateful. And great honour to be [00:00:30] a part of this research and to get to answer some questions about it. Um, hi. I'm Logan. Uh, I use pronouns. Um, I started at 12 years ago as a member. So, like I said, I, um, was one of those people that came and never left. Um, I've been the wine coordinator here for [00:01:00] four years. Three years? A couple of years. Um and yeah, I'm just really excited to see you know how many people turned out and you own it. Um, I'm James. I'm 19. I go by BM. I've been coming to waking since I was about 13, and I've been a for about a year or two now. Oh, [00:01:30] yeah, that, um I'm just I'm 21. I use any pros. Um I've been coming to work here since 2015. So I'm coming up for six years now. Um, I've bought a lot of put a lot of people through. I've seen a lot of growth within wacky, and I'm incredibly grateful for this. This group and this community. Yeah, I'm [00:02:00] incredibly grateful to be part of the panel to Davidson, and my pronouns are And her ear, um, which we have always had, Um, which I love about Maori and the affirming resistance against the colonial winery, Um, and patriarchy. [00:02:30] Oh, What? This is on my face. It's really beautiful to be up here. Um, I won't say my age, but I'm not even new for Jason. Um, if that counts for anything and it is beautiful to be out here with these incredible people killed them. So the format for the panel is that we're going to ask a set of questions that folks are going to have a chance to, um, educate us with, um, each [00:03:00] of the questions is gonna be loosely based on one of our recommendations from the research. Um, and just before we get into that, I want to describe what we did so you can understand where those recommendations came from. Can everybody hear me? OK, so the first thing we did was we sent out a survey to every secondary school in New Zealand and we asked them to pass it on to their students. Um, the survey asked questions about what kinds of healthy relationships and consent [00:03:30] education topics they had experienced at school. What they thought about them, what was missing, what they liked, what they didn't like. Um, and 249 young people answered that. So we ended up with a decent amount of information. The big take home from the survey results were was basically the young people were saying, We are not getting anything Ramo specific in our healthy relationships, education, we're not getting anything that's about us. [00:04:00] The next thing we did was we held a couple of focus groups here at, and those were open to any of the young people that come to work groups that wanted to be part of this this kind of conversation. Um, we used the fabulous model to make sure that we were looking at relationships holistically. Um, and what we found from that the biggest takeover from that really were that the folks that came to the focus groups talked about [00:04:30] wanting and needing the environments around them to be safer. So wanting and needing home life to be safe, wanting and needing school life to be safe before even being able to think about what a healthy relationship might be like. Yeah, so the focus group results and the survey results really spoke to each other. The things that Rainbow young people talked about and asked for were brilliant, articulate, innovative and wise not building you up too much, folks. Um [00:05:00] and so we're going to now kind of start to explore that just before we do. I want to say really clearly that we're going to take it as a given that everyone in deserves access to healthy relationships and education that no matter what our culture, our ethnicity, our faith, our sexuality, our gender and disability status, we should be able to see ourselves and healthy relationships and consent educational content. [00:05:30] And it should help us get a bare minimum, identify red flags, situations where there's violence, abuse, coercion around sexual things. But that really is setting the bar all way too low right When we talk about healthy relationships, we want to be thinking about how do we set up the chance for people to practise skills and negotiating conflict really well and treating other people's belongings with respect [00:06:00] and being able to set boundaries and listen to other people's boundaries and really being able to set up relationships that enhance each other's lives? OK, not just relationships and that violence, relationships that make us feel better and make our lives richer. So that's that kind of, you know, quite big. Aim in mind. Let's keep going with the panel, OK, so I'm gonna start with that first question and invite someone on the panel to kick us off by telling us about why [00:06:30] Rambo young people need respect, space and information to support who they are specifically in the context of healthy relationships. You can use that, I think, for the same reason that anyone wants it or needs it, um, [00:07:00] eggs have flourished. Um, and I question why rainbow young people need respect space and information to support who they are. It's just watching the growth I've seen with a lot of our young people through, um, and receiving education that probably should have been in school. Um, [00:07:30] there. Yeah, there is this element of sort of solidifying. Yeah, your, um and bye. The Yeah, the education. Um, it it helps you sort of go Oh, actually, like normal. Oh, exactly. [00:08:00] Yeah, I, I just said I exist, and I deserve to exist. I deserve to be acknowledged. Yeah, gorgeous. Does anyone else have anything they want to add to it? Also having the education and the tools available to you That is more than just a heteronormative way of relationships. And [00:08:30] there is so much more than what we are forced to learn and what we are only allowed to learn through schools. And if you know what we're expected to be and what we're forced to be And if the rules are breaking out of that and we like you did have that access to education about healthy relationships in schools and they had the respect that they deserved and you know are entitled to, then it's pretty obvious that, [00:09:00] you know, everyone will be better off because you don't have to justify that. It's just, you know, basically yeah, absolutely. I think kind of one of the key issues there is that How can we have healthy relationships with other people if we're not getting any information about ourselves, that tells us where we are? Yeah. Yeah. Our survey respondents and focus group participants were both strongly [00:09:30] in favour of schools being the most successful place for healthy relationships and consent education. And the big reason for that was that they wanted that the material being accessible to everybody. And I thought it was a place that it was most likely to happen. So my next question for our panel was what healthy relationships and consent education content at school would have benefited you and your peers. Yes. You're looking keen to kick us off. [00:10:00] I think it's a list. Yeah, I think just, like, couldn't see before how succeeded in, like helping education. And there wasn't even education around like healthy. I'm gonna put a media quote like normal relationships as it was put. Um, So I think having an education there would take away a lot of the having to learn it for yourself. Kind [00:10:30] of aspect of discovering that you like queer discovering that you identify under the rainbow umbrella that takes away a lot of the feelings of guilt that a lot of youth, especially the Rainbow Youth, have to deal with. So I think having access to that education would be so, so important. Because people people need to know this. They can't just keep being [00:11:00] forced into these set boxes because that's the way the education system always worked. Like yeah, I think, Yeah, definitely having all forms of education around relationships consume education in schools, definitely heading the nail on the head before it becomes a problem before it grows into homophobia and bullying and up the suicide rates and the homelessness and youth and [00:11:30] everything. That's already a problem in New Zealand, not just with freedom of youth, but as a nation. Um, being able to stop that and help, then fix that and provide the right education for youth, like, Why are we doing it already? Is the kind of good question, which is why I guess that's why we're here tonight, Obviously, um, but also having for me personally, if I had that kind of education available to me in school, I wouldn't have had [00:12:00] to deal with, like what you said about the stress of trying to educate yourself and educate others when you're already so worried and so mentally drained from trying to figure out who you are and what you identify as like it like just being yourself. I think one of the other things is also, um and this is in more of a broad sense than just the, you know, the community is so much of healthy relationships and consent [00:12:30] to the education is looked at from a sexual or romantic relationship point of view. There's sort of no sort of way of going. Well, how do you read the red flags in a friendship that might be bad for you? Um, yeah, exactly. It's Yeah. Um, so I think that definitely would have Would have helped me, because when you do, I mean, as a young, queer person, you do look to, [00:13:00] um, you know, older, queer people who and that can often lead to really dangerous situations. Um and yeah, it was having to find out the hard work on the stuff or, you know, those short chart shop kind of lessons. But having a little I don't want to say an introduction, but having some education based around that would have been wonderful. OK, [00:13:30] it It shouldn't need to get to the point where we get told that we're not OK or we need to offer ourselves that people start to realise that that's not OK. The education that we're getting. Well, Uncle Google doesn't know everything. Especially not to the teenage mind. Yeah, um I just want to kind of let people know, too, that one of the things that several of our survey participants said is what Quincy and have just referred to [00:14:00] having to write their own content at school because there was nothing relevant for them. So literally designing lesson bans for their schooling as a student. Yeah, OK, folks, next question. So one of the things that was really clear in the research was that there were lots of young people who said they didn't have access to groups like OK, and I'm gonna call them life saving groups like [00:14:30] so My next question is, what's the best way to make sure those pathways or support can be accessed by rain people? I think schools not hiding the fact that groups like this exist. We're not only schools, but counselling offices, support offices, the doctors, you know, Have you ever seen a rainbow youth with the doctors? It's just as important to the mental health as you know, depression [00:15:00] or anxiety, because that's where most of it stems from. But like, yeah, the things that are small as like I don't think I found out about working until where my friends had already been, because she found out through a pamphlet that she found through a friend through a friend like it wasn't anywhere to read through the school. It was kind of like gave the Chinese listeners just to get some Ramo youth support in the school. So it definitely needs to be a lot more accessible and a lot more like it needs [00:15:30] to be advertised far more than it is because you shouldn't have to wait until you're in your late teen years to realise that there was support that could impact you way up in your life. I also think proper funding for online resources. Um, but, you know, youth friendly online resources, a lot of the ones you don't know. It's very academic, and it's a lot of, um, [00:16:00] big words, which I don't want them. I wouldn't have wanted to read at the end of, like, a high school day with this recent exams and stuff, let alone um but, yeah, I think online resources are invaluable. Um, because it's basically everything is online. Um, mhm. I think as well kind of flipping that, um educating parents and adults, too, [00:16:30] because there's a lot that my mom didn't know. And she was, like, the only adult that I really trusted to talk to about that kind of thing. Um, so I think, really just educating parents and teachers on that kind of thing and just didn't know that, you know, it's it's OK. And this is a challenge you won't have to deal with. You should know how to deal with that kind of thing. So, yes, it should be accessible online [00:17:00] and through schools. But I think also to a degree, parents and caregivers should should know. Yeah. Yeah. I think that story of learning about groups because your friend knew about it and your friend told you that's what I hear most often when I talk to folks in groups like this. So I think you're right. Um, everyone, we need more information. We need it everywhere. We need our parents and families to know about it too. [00:17:30] And we need to remove the stigma from it, I think. OK, so one of the things I do in my spare time is I offer supervision to facilitators of school based programmes like mates and dates and one of the stories I hear from them and I've shared this with the panel already. So you know what's coming? Um is I had a facilitator a while back and this wasn't for a school in the You'll be pleased to hear I had a facilitator a while back. Ask me how they could support students [00:18:00] in a school they were working in and the concern was the Rainbow Students. And they were concerned about the Rainbow students because the school, when a young person there was going to be punished, was sent to a place that the entire school called the gay rock OK, and the facilitator talking to me was like, What can I do to make Rambo young people feel safe in my programme when this is what's happening around them? [00:18:30] So my next question and this is a big one, I think, and I know we have a lot of teachers watching online. We have teachers in the room, which is fantastic. Is what can schools do to be safe places for rainbow young people to learn about healthy relationships and consent. Don't have a gay rock. Um, I suppose it kind of jumps back into The other question, too, is stop hiding it like it's wrong. [00:19:00] Put the posters up like you would for the sports teams. There are resources. There are places to go. Don't hide it like there isn't Don't hide it like you're scared that there is. That's a big part of it. Actually, I think for me, the most important thing I could say now, after experiencing everything I have been through is for teachers, especially if you are an educator. If you deal with, if you're gonna come across [00:19:30] a way of youth in your job, the most important thing you can do for them is just be there for them. Be be that support and take it upon yourself to educate yourself on what you can do to support them and make them feel safe and comfortable and like they're worth it because they are like it's Yeah, that's honestly, that's I think that's one of the most important things. But before anything else is just be there for your students and don't be afraid to stand up for them [00:20:00] and do what's right, because I think that's something I came across a lot in high school. I kind of have a teacher who's who's there for me, but wouldn't even take any step through. Like when you go to the board about, you know, homophobia or they care. They don't put the effort in it. Yeah, so care and put the effort in it. You know, um just show off what you said about resources and hiding them and then going back again to what I said about more resources is actually the resources that are out there. There is a lot of resources out there. They're just not being advertised. [00:20:30] Um, but yeah, just as soon as you see that if you can advertise a gay for punishment, you can advertise Rabo posters. You can do it. Put them on the make it a positive thing. Be the gay one for your students. Yeah, I I think [00:21:00] kind of also going off of what Quincy said. Um, especially in schools. If a kid comes up to you and says I want to go by this name, use that name If a kid comes up to you and says, Hey, I think I might be queer, just support them. They are going to remember that for the rest of their not only school life, but their life. You're always going to remember the positive experiences and the people who really supported [00:21:30] you, then made you feel grateful for someone you can't help, but yeah, so just education. Beautiful to deliver. OK, now the Lomans already mentioned this, which is almost like he knew the question was coming. Online resources were absolutely adored by the young people who participated in our research, [00:22:00] both the national survey and in our focus groups. They were the thing that got the highest rating in terms of usefulness. They were the thing that people wanted more of the most. So let's hear from people here. Why do rainbow young people need online resources about rainbow relationships and consent? Because you don't have to tell your parents incognito mode honestly, No, because they're so accessible. You you can go to the library [00:22:30] on the computer you can. You can have one at home. You can borrow your mate's phone. You can steal your mom's phone. It's so accessible. It's so easy just to well, if you know how to find them hidden that's so easily accessible just to to get those online resources because they're online and the online will these days. It was so much easier for me to do the old like MI a test than it was to go up to my mom and be like, I think [00:23:00] if you have to do that kind of. But it's just so much easier for someone who's lying with you and questioning their identity to throw like a quick search together or ask some friends or stumble upon resources than it is to ask people, because you never know what people are gonna have to come out to ask about [00:23:30] that one. It's also the accept, like as someone who may have no idea what the hell is going on within your head or your body. You don't know who to ask. You don't know who's accepting about this if you don't I. I didn't even know what gay was until I was about 13. I didn't know that there was a world where a woman could like women and men could like men. Or you could be in the wrong body. I don't know who the hell to ask. And I sure as help and ask my family. Because if I did, who knows what would happen? [00:24:00] So Uncle Google was a Saviour? Um, I think also like while groups like here are incredible coming into a group where you know no one and you have no idea what to expect as a young person is terrifying, Um, And like, yeah, online resources are great purely because of all the things that we mentioned, playing [00:24:30] the trouble at the moment is Well, I mean, when I was young, a lot of the online resources were poor. Um, that was your learning experience for gay relationships, for great relationships. Um, which That's not their focus. Let's be honest. Um, they're not out there to promote, like, concerned and healthy relationships. Yeah, but it it's [00:25:00] Yeah, that was the one resource. Um, And then, like, I bit the bullet and did the thing when I was 13 and came on to their alone. Um and yeah, I'm still here. It If I had an online resource, it would have. It would have made things a hell of a lot of people. Because I'm from a rural town. It's [00:25:30] There's not a lot of, you know, you can't go ask your local queer about it. Um, like we didn't have a gay rock together. Um, so being, um, yeah, I totally agree with all of that and then the other. The other opportunity that online resources gives us, I think is the opportunity to centre rainbow lives and to centre [00:26:00] sexuality, diverse people and gender diverse people and sex diverse people in a way that we're never gonna get when we're part of the general population. So it gives us another chance to really be the focus of what we're looking at, which is, I think, always a beautiful experience to see ourselves front and centre. Ok, I'm gonna hand over to our special guest now, Minister Davidson to ask the next question. It's a big one. Good. Thank you, Sandra. It's [00:26:30] like all of the questions and I'm scribbling notes because for me, um, hearing directly from the experts on these issues um is the most impactful way to get this information absorbed. So I've been scribbling notes because your questions are so on point. And this question that I have the privilege of asking is a question that, um, for me goes to the core of prevention of violence. But [00:27:00] establishing well-being And it is what do healthy relationships mean for young people in rainbow communities? So I think, especially in terms of bring your communities just really having that education, and knowing that you've got that support really is just knowing [00:27:30] how to foster a healthy relationship when you've got, like, all of these other things going on and just I think it's probably one of, if not the most important things to know how to have those healthy relationships and know how to maintain them. Whether it's, you know, romantic or the or anything, and just really knowing that you've got like, you look at your back like he was in, [00:28:00] like humans are animals. You can't be alone. Nobody wants to be alone, no matter how crap you might feel one day and how much your friends have you, how much no one wants to be alone and then you have an extra struggle of being a rainbow youth on top of that and feeling so out of place all the time because nobody accepts you. It's so incredibly important to have especially healthy relationships, as [00:28:30] as a younger person. Because what else are you gonna do? You can't be alone for your whole life like it's, you know, it's just the same. It's the same as any non Rabo relationship. It's equally as important. It's just extra steps because of the homophobia and colonisation. And you know, you go on and on and on. You know, all the reasons why we no, but, um, and a personal story to have, too, is one of the best healthy relationships I've ever gotten out of [00:29:00] actually having the right education on healthy relationships and contemporary. Is she like my little my of my sister, which is that's what she is for me, like yeah, like whenever I introduce her like, here's my sister like, Sure, she's like, you know, the exact opposite of me. Um, no, because without wacky, I never would have met her and she never would have been my best friend. I'm here today. We would have never been living together all the cool experiences we had together through and like just being able to be ourselves. [00:29:30] And I think just as the person I can most evenly Bo is be myself around, and I owe that to the proper education around healthy relationships. And that's why I'm so passionate about that as well, because I want that for every robo year. And that should be a thing for every room laton romantically, anything. It's what they deserve, I guess. Yeah, I think also visibility. Um, you don't see a lot of like [00:30:00] healthy queer relationships on TV or in movies. There is these, like there are two tropes that I can think of, which are queers, where you know, if there is a healthy relationship, one of them always dies in some tragic way or it's or it's sex, drugs, rock and roll. And that's all you see. Um, so just seeing like a queer couple of a couple [00:30:30] to me with a kid would be Yeah, yeah, that would be really nice to see so until then, but that comes with education. Um, that comes with learning how to how to just be [00:31:00] in everyday life, but be safe and be authentic and being the best. I know it sounds cliche, but be the best you you can be, um, with them in the context of a relationship, be it a friendship or a romantic relationship. Um and I mean, that's the other thing I think that comes under the education umbrella for consenting public relationships is that it's not one size fits all. [00:31:30] Not everyone has the same relationship. Yeah, agree, Agree, Agree? I just didn't say agree. I'll probably the answer. Um, we've only got a couple more questions now, folks, which is good because Slay is waving hands at me. Um, so I see the last one is about peer pressure. So peer pressure for young people can come from outside the Ramo community to be sis, to be straight to inform the [00:32:00] gender norms that might not fit us to date someone that's a different gender from us, whether or not we want to. Or they can come from inside the community to behave in particular ways. This is what gay men a life. This is what Lexan is alive. This is what a real trans person looks like, blah blah, blah, blah. So what topics do you folks think? Education about peer pressure needs to improve, to be relevant for every young people. Once you've got I just think this is very this is kind of ironic. It's very relevant to me. [00:32:30] Um, so the context like I I was assigned female at birth, and I transitioned whatever. And I'm just chilling as myself down. Um, but literally like, two weeks ago, I was sitting down with Jess and I'm like, You know, look, I think I am gay and like, that's OK to have a preference and to finally let go of that peer pressure that I have been holding on to for my whole life of like, No, you're Trans. If you're like a man, you're just [00:33:00] straight wine to yourself, being able to realise my internalised homophobia and transphobia and letting go of that and just being myself if we had education around peer pressure around the topics of your homophobia, transphobia or bio, everything like that, but also going deeper into how internalised phobias can also like, prevent you from becoming yourself, meaning who you are. And [00:33:30] I think the best advice you could give on air brusher is I know people, right, But don't listen to anyone to anyone else around whether what they try to tell you to do about your identity and if we would be able to educate youth and let them form their own identity and support them behind it rather than telling them what to do. Strength based, but like build your own. Yeah, [00:34:00] like if we could be guiding rather than force them into boxes. Yeah, it it again with the the trans issues. That's so a man, I'm sure you can all agree a man can wear makeup and look fabulous, right? So where is the issue with? I'll say a lot of I say, hetero people thinking that a trans man, if they want to wear makeup, they're lying or they're not. They're not [00:34:30] a trans man because they're a feminine guy, but there's you can transition from something. You can be a masculine female and you can be a feminine male. There is no box to fit into just because society wants you to. Yeah, from transitioning, I gathered a real toxic masculinity for myself. I felt like I had to be manly. I felt like I had to dress a certain way, talk a certain way, sit a certain way. I felt like no aspect [00:35:00] of me could be feminine or someone would think I was lying. And I've had that. I've I've sat like this and been told Don't slap your shoulders or slip with your legs crossed because that's not what guys do. And you wanna be a guy. Shut up. Just shut up. That's not how it is. If a trans man or a man wants to wear makeup on, if a woman wants to be masculine later, it doesn't matter. Society lies reinforcing and teaching the fluidity [00:35:30] of gender and sexuality. And I yeah, I think coming back to like talking about your, you know, everyday, usual peer pressure, Um, speaking sort of through the lens of a game. Um, is this pressure to conform to a party lifestyle, which which is yeah, um, and also the whole body. [00:36:00] Um, thing is, there's this and I mean, that's just society in general. But there is this added pressure as a gay man to look like you spend five days a week in a job. Um, yeah, it's fun. And it's like. I mean, other than that going to a few parties earlier on, I'd see people like that and be like, Oh, that's what I meant to look like. And then I sort [00:36:30] of reached my scrod edge like No, for that. I'm just enjoying myself. I think as well, like, I've dealt with a lot of bi failure in my life. Um, and a lot of the peer pressure surrounding bisexual people is the whole, like, side thing, And I think, really just dealing with that. And then having people [00:37:00] tell you that you do have to go one or the other way or even like saying, Yeah, internalising it, OK? Yeah. Yeah. Like, um, like, I'm I'm my partner is so small. He's you know, you know, how long would you say that? We'll just stay. Um, but I remember my [00:37:30] dad asking me so straight now. I was like, Hm, No, no. And he's like, But you must be because you're dating a man, man. And just the pressure to, like, try and change that integral part of myself is just and like, yeah, you still bisexual? Yeah. Yeah. OK, folks, last but not least question so The [00:38:00] young folks who participated in our research said that they wanted to see facilitators of healthy relationships and consent education that looked like them. OK, they wanted to see people that reflected diverse cultural ethnic identities in New Zealand, they wanted to see diverse sexualities, and they wanted to see diverse genders as well as that. And probably most importantly, I think they wanted people that weren't scared of rainbow identities. So my question for [00:38:30] the panel is what would rainbow competent facilitators of healthy relationships and consent education do better use pronouns and yeah, um and also, I think, one of the issues with facilitators not wanting to get into the, you know, talking about the community and all that is a fear of [00:39:00] looking dumb or like they don't know everything. And no one knows everything. Um Hm, yeah, yeah, the fear of being first. Um, but yeah, I think the first step forward is using, um was [00:39:30] like, don't be homophobic, literally. It's it's that easy that that might play a big part of being a rainbow. You know, being a rain. No, it's honestly, though. Don't be homophobic. It it sounds stupid, but it's the bare minimum. And And I understand you working with youth, you've changed their minds. Um, but I've met quite a lot of people [00:40:00] who have transitioned and Det transitioned because they realise this isn't right or they've gone from being a gay man to a gay woman. Or they've just been by your pan or at the end that they change their minds. And don't be upset about it. It can be hard to remember at times Don't try to force getting new watches like boxes Don't do what the streets do. We don't want that, [00:40:30] um, and what you said, too Don't don't play stereotypes as facilitators don't again the You know, the whole down is alcohol. Don't fall into that. Don't try to put everyone in the box, But you're trying to do the opposite because it happens a lot more than you think. It's like get rid of the guy. I think that's yeah, and I'm just gonna add one more thing to that rainbow. Competent facilitators need to deal with homophobic [00:41:00] biphobic and transphobic bullying in their classrooms, and they will, if we want healthy relationships and consent education to be safe for our own young people. There cannot be that kind of bullying going on. There's a there's a difference between standing in front of people and being like bullying is bad. We don't stand for it and then sending to get into the office and be like smack on the wrist. OK, bye. That's not dealing with the issue that's prolonging a bad result. [00:41:30] OK, and on that note I want to invite everyone to just thank our wanking. And I guess I wanna say thank you, not just for them being up on stage and chatting with me here tonight. Although that's been lovely. I also want to say thank you for everything they do as volunteers here at [00:42:00] to make sure that young people coming behind them Sorry, older folks have better experiences. Yeah, so let's just thank them again, OK? And now we're going to invite the right honourable Marama Davidson to give us his thoughts about this research where it fits into their plans to prevent feminine and sexual violence, especially for communities and maybe especially for [00:42:30] young people, for communities. Thank you. And I just wondered, um, whether it it would be ok to use that in just so that, um I can put my notes here because since I've been listening to the experts and some expertise, I have really wanted to draw quite heavily from a from a personal as well as a political level. Um, from what I've heard, um, [00:43:00] um, or or, um uh, what I wanted to do is locate myself, um, in the context [00:43:30] and the stories that have been coming through tonight. And it has been an incredible privilege to be able to sit amongst this panel of experts and receive the the celebration the mama and the experiences of, um, and including with SLA and us up, um, Sandra introducing the important research and then listening to, um, [00:44:00] Quincy and Logan and James and Jess. Um, bringing through the incredible incredible That is vital to the work that I'm trying to do tonight. I am here as you just heard. Um, as a descendant of, um, I live in, um, with, uh, my hubby and our Children. We have six. we also have a who is [00:44:30] nearly two. I realised, too, that before, on the couch, when we were introducing ourselves, Um, and I didn't say my age. Actually, it is an absolute privilege to be 47 and to have made it this far so far privilege to be coming up to 50. And I know and I'm learning every day that just the privilege of being able to live life and be alive and making it through some incredible challenges. [00:45:00] Um, I am proud. I am proud of whatever my age is, and I will learn that and continue to celebrate that, um, you and Sandra, all of our especially our young people. Um, just thank you so much what you are actually doing. And I referred to this a little bit in my introduction because I wanted to go back a step. What we are all doing here today, what [00:45:30] you are actually doing is you are a part of an ongoing collective work around the world and here in our local communities and neighbourhoods to dismantle what the world has put on us so far for hundreds, if not thousands of years, and rebuild a better world that stops putting us in boxes that stops competing, stops us competing against each other [00:46:00] and stops us from exploiting each other and our planet, and that that is absolutely related to the inhumane, undignified responses that we see, including to our queer young people far too often that when I mentioned before about these boxes, these values, these ideologies that have caused harm, it is time for them to go, [00:46:30] and the work that you are all doing is part of the rebuild. It is also part of the dismantling the dismantling, and I'll say it again and I'll say it again because I am in a position of incredible privilege and influence as a minister of government and as a politician. And it needs to continually be told, in truth that all of the ideologies that have exploited people in the planet can [00:47:00] be found very, very clearly in the same values that have pushed us apart. Whether that is the colonising agenda that has forced us into narrow interpretations of who we are supposed to be, whether it is a patriarchy that has led to the toxic masculinity that has been talked about here tonight, whether it is a Western agenda that has undermined, um, genders and sexes the way that we know of today, [00:47:30] um, that has also undermined the world views of many indigenous people, including of Maori here as that if we were able to uplift. And I and I heard Sandra, for example, refer to something as simple as something as simple as that one small example of indigenous ideologies here indigenous values and world views here and around the [00:48:00] world that can recreate respectful relationships with each other that can recreate respecting the manner of every single person and, most importantly and connected our relationship to our earth and to our being the and that those connections and relationships are directly linked to the way that we have been taught to not respect each other, to not [00:48:30] respect our planet, to not respect our relationships. So I just wanted to start off by saying that this is all part of the rebuilding work that we must do to address and is at the core of many of the manifestations of the problems that we are seeing today. Um, a whole lot of really lovely official notes here, and they've all gone haywire. Um, look, I wanted to I wanted to acknowledge [00:49:00] I talked about locating myself, and I talked about the privilege of making up to 47 years old and coming up to 50 as a person who was born into the gender that I've been assigned as a person as a person who, um, is heterosexual and who is in relationship, Um, with the opposite sex again? Another box that is seeming [00:49:30] baby. You're OK, honey. Um, another box that is seen to be what is more accepted than than other bosses and that privilege that I have continued to learn about and what it means for me, then to support those who don't have that the same privilege. I wanted to locate myself in that space. Um, when I met it, I, um, wanted to acknowledge my colleagues, um, [00:50:00] and my rainbow colleagues. But who I understand are online as well and the important support that I must give daily to my rainbow colleagues, friends and at all levels. And I also wanted to mention that my mama is here tonight sitting down the front here, um, and that the connections and the support that we get, um, from the people who mean the most to us is so incredibly a massive part of the prevention [00:50:30] work when it comes to everybody living lives of wellness and well-being And, um, certainly I have had privilege from my own parents. And as I was sitting here, I was remembering when I was young. I don't know, I maybe early teens, and I remember I. I must have asked the dad some questions that maybe triggered something in him. Maybe I was asking about relationships, you know, and immediately [00:51:00] he immediately he went to a space and he said to me, You know what, darling? And this is very typical of the privilege of the parenting that I have been like to receive. And he said, Whoever you love, um, we will love because you love him and, um he was I can't remember the exact words, but I remember the feeling he was saying, I think you're trying to tell me you're gay and I want you to know that I love you no matter what. And we love [00:51:30] you no matter what. And I remember thinking, I'm really not like I'm really not. But as I was sitting on the couch and remembering that, I remember thinking what a what an important reaction that I maybe even dismissed at the time how important that was. And I'm thinking now. Oh, and some young rainbow person missed out on a really loving parental reaction. It got wasted on me. Very, very hetro. [00:52:00] Um but that was one of the privileges of locating myself in tonight's that that came to me as a story in my ministerial role in the prevention of sexual violence and family violence. There are some really high level goals and values that I'm really, really clear about, that I have as a priority in my work that it includes. Um we cannot talk about the prevention of, um, any [00:52:30] forms of violence unless we acknowledge the violence of colonisation and how it continues. We cannot have solutions that are not held together, um, with a justice framework that a justice framework is one of the most inclusive frameworks that we could have as a country and that that will help us to outlive the mana of all people. Um, that the only preventions we [00:53:00] can really have that will be enduring must be community led, including for the diverse communities that we have in our country that we must understand the connection and have a holistic approach to reducing and eliminating violence in our homes. and in our communities that we must understand that some really basic things like having, um, good, safe, long term stable homes and enough income [00:53:30] and pay to keep your and yourself healthy goes a heck of a long way towards the well being of all people, including our queer young people, that in the solutions and in the actions to prevent all forms of violence, um, it must be done with a true partnership working with government who have the power and the resources, but not the expertise and not the networks that are held at local community levels, local [00:54:00] neighbourhood levels, local, local, um, group levels. So those are my high level approaches that lean into the incredible data and information and stories that is coming out of the research that we are launching That, um, you are launching tonight that, um, and I heard, uh, Sandra and Logan and others talk about the influence of hearing the voices from our young people. That is the only way that we will actually [00:54:30] transform the way that we respond and eliminate violence. For far too long, we have neglected, undermined or completely rejected the expertise from the very people at the front line at the front line of violence, including homophobia, transphobia, um, toxic masculinity and so on that we cannot continue to reject that expertise [00:55:00] that we have been trying for decades, in fact, to reduce violence. It has not worked. We have been operating in a way where government agencies, communities have been working in factions and silos. We must join up the knowledge, the resourcing, the overview of what we are trying to do together. And that's why we are about to go out and [00:55:30] draw from communities. What a national strategy on the prevention of sexual violence and family violence should look like. And all of those priorities and principles, Um, are why again, your voices and your stories are so important. Um, at the start of the night, I was really privileged to be able to talk to Jess a little bit more about, um what, what? This organisation? What this place means [00:56:00] to people. And we were talking about how it was organised, that just nearby at Starbucks around the corner, that it was offered as a place for people to meet to come to this event in case people didn't feel like They could, um, come to this this event, um, on their own. And it is that very community monarchy that is going to be be, um, a massive driving solution of how we take care of each other. Those [00:56:30] that sort of local monarchy. Thinking can only come from the local groups from the local experts, Um, at the forefront of some of the most harmful impacts of violence. That is the very essence of what community means. And so my constant daily challenge is how does government support and work with more of that community creative, innovative response [00:57:00] and care that that in itself is a prevention strategy? Um, we, Jess and I also talked about and it came up later in one of the questions, the importance of things like, um, she was able to hear about this group those years ago from a simple poster up at her school and how important something so simple made in the rest of her life and being able to find a place of belonging. And I think it was [00:57:30] you. Um, Quinn, who was talking about humans are pretty simple. We are trying to find our place of belonging and Tumi. Um, now we also take that for granted and certainly people like myself who have incredible and extend in community support and understanding how not everybody has that. And how do we make sure that we create that so that everyone can find their place of belonging in support? [00:58:00] And so I know that there's a massive question for how do we make sure that we are not getting in the way of the innovation of community driven solutions that we do not keep seeking barriers and group of people to be their innovative, creative, um thought leadership, um, driving those solutions that must come from the ground. That must come from the very people who know what their local neighbourhood needs, who know what. [00:58:30] Um, talent is available in the area What organisations are available in the area and for me, not putting things in the way means exactly what was coming out here tonight. Making sure that our education systems, our health systems, our justice systems, um, our places where we go to for school and for going to the doctor and for any sort of help, are firstly inclusive of everybody. Um are firstly aware [00:59:00] that they need to be inclusive of everybody. Those are the sorts of barriers that we have been putting in front of diverse communities for a long, long time. Um, looking at the barriers, you know, And it actually goes broader. It's how is our right now we have a massive housing crisis like that is a massive barrier. And we talked about, um, how important how the relationships are and with rainbow young people and often like [00:59:30] a home we know is such a massive, important dynamic in all of our lives and means everything. But similarly too, I often think of people as home. There are some people who are home, and we know who those are when we're lucky to have them. Um, they are the people who, when things fall to shit, they're the people who we can at least breathe a sigh of relief. They the people who actually help [01:00:00] us to see we're going to make it through. And that little difference is a massive difference of being able to understand when things don't go well, which is a life. Um, do we have the strength and the enduring vision to be able to see that we've got a community and relationships who are going to help us through this. And I know that that has been the difference in dark moments of far too many of our people, [01:00:30] especially our queer young people. Um, I will. I've been in, uh, and Hamilton over the past week, and I'm not actually at all surprised by the community strength and leadership that has been shown across so many, many areas, um, of well-being and, you know, and again, the ongoing work to dismantle the stuff that hasn't worked for us and to rebuild the stuff [01:01:00] that we need to put into its place. Um, where do I go? I wanted to highlight that. I'm hearing how we need to improve specifically, um, how we work with schools, how we make sure that the information are but really schools are also places of affirming values. Every institution, every health institution, justice, institution. [01:01:30] Everything is a place that affirms or rejects particular values. We've got some work to do. We've got some work to do. It is clear here, um, in terms of what is considered and what is expected of young people. What boxes? They are considered they have to go into, um, what boxes they were supposed to stay away from. And so there's a lot of work that we must do in that space. Now that is a core prevention strategy, um, of [01:02:00] violence. But I want to acknowledge that it needs to go back even further than that. And there's a whole culture across A that has been entrenched for hundreds of years, in fact, and it does come from the colonial patriarchal value of what I mean, the values we put on little babies as soon as they get here. And I'm thinking about my one of my own boys who's today 13, but as a young boy who had these beautiful, [01:02:30] older three older sisters and was, you know, got into their bedrooms because it was a beautiful fancy Playland and as a young boy who loved pink high heels and lipstick and all their beautiful, bright clothing and colour, and it's really exciting, and that is just a very ordinary, ordinary thing for a child to be able to celebrate and play with and experiment with. But I remember the horror of some people, thankfully, mostly not my [01:03:00] family, but the horror of some people when I would post it up on social media. Look at my look at my amazing son. Look how imaginative he is. Look how playful he is and the horror of some people who just felt really nervous. They are just a baby getting into colours and they brick and clothing. That's all it is that those narrow boxes and this is like this is pretty basic stuff. I feel like I you know, I feel like this is a speech in the eighties, but sadly, it's [01:03:30] still here and that prevention strategy of what we impose on babies, what we impose on babies and the minute they get here. And I want to acknowledge, too, that we we have internalised colonisation. We have internalised racism. We have internalised elitism. Um, when uh people have been so subjugated and who they are that they want to aim to be something they [01:04:00] never will be, you know? And we've seen that everywhere and I. I want to acknowledge that the interruption that colonisation has done for the beauty of that fluidity, I think, was a that used the fluidity of who we are. And I wanted to acknowledge the work of the inquiry, which is a treaty tribunal inquiry right now. And I've been listening to the submissions and the Maori women making, giving that evidence, and [01:04:30] they are very clear. We must bring back the fluidity of thinking that solidity of identity the inclusive nature of is at the heart of everything should be what we have affirmed as opposed to, uh, societal norms. Papa means that and it's what my father was role modelling, you know, he was role modelling me and bullets of connection. [01:05:00] He's This is my daughter. She looks like she's struggling with the question. I'm going to love her no matter what that is. And the inquiry has been coming through with these very firm values that are there, all of us. They're there for the taking, especially here in a. So I acknowledge the Greek building work that is happening all over the place at all different levels for a more inclusive, [01:05:30] more understanding, more caring world that will save lives that will improve the quality of lives. Um, that will rebuild connections across all of us and that will rebuild our love for our planet as well as people So, um, that's what I think I wanted to talk about mostly tonight. And I think I I've been speaking for far too long, and most supportive voices here tonight are not mine. So I wanted [01:06:00] to close on a couple of things. Um, I mentioned that we are going to start the public engagement of the national strategy. What does that mean For a and asking communities to help us create a national strategy and I I look forward to, um, where young people being supported if they think they would like to engage in that process and including the research and the ideas. [01:06:30] And the stories are so vital to any strategy, but especially for the prevention of violence and had a couple of stories to, um, end on and one final one was, um, some people may have heard, um, many, many years ago, when I was at the Human Rights Commission. There was some research that was happening. Um, which was called, I think to be to be Cassandra, um would have [01:07:00] been very involved in it. And we were in a and and I had my little boy another little boy who's today 15, but he was new. He was maybe some weeks old, and we were doing at the opening of them. Essentially, it was, um, affirming the the sort of gender continuum, including intersex people, trans people just being who we are. And we went around and and, um, it was a a room full of trans people, intersex people, [01:07:30] rainbow people. And we were introducing each other. They came to my baby and I said, Um, this is Manu. He's a few weeks old. Right now. He's male, but he'll decide that for sure when he grows up. And I just thought some I'm trying to think, What is it? And I know it's from my parents and our old values as well. But what is it that that I'm able that I'm able to that I'm able to see that [01:08:00] and not be afraid of that, not be afraid of that possibility and can even celebrate the diversity even among my own Children? Um and I and I know together we can pull through what will help stand there with strength, with confidence, knowing that they are able to love, love, their people, love their Children, love their no matter who they love, no matter who they are and [01:08:30] actually, um, celebrate celebrate the fluidity and the diversity. So with that, I thank you very much for your time for including me and tonight and most importantly, for your work and helping to rebuild a better world. See, I'm like to go after that. Wow. Um [01:09:00] So I had this really formal, Thank you That I was going to read out to you. But after getting your just coming from such a place of, I think it's only appropriate to do the same. But I just want to say on on behalf of, uh and everyone that's here, just thank you so much for coming tonight. I've watched you being so engaged on stage and writing your notes and actually listening and hearing us and talking about your experiences. And I think it's so correct and so true that when we come from a place [01:09:30] of, um when we come from a place of love and to support our when we come from a strategy when we come from our Maori world view, when you spoke about, um that really resonated and I think it's so beautiful. Um and I just want to finish off really By saying that, um, it was just really powering and that wa you looks forward to working with you in the future. Um, as we know that preventing violence in Rambo communities [01:10:00] is a conversation where all our voices are included. And so, um, all right, I also think it's really important once again just to acknowledge our amazing youth that are up here on stage this evening, the power and money that came from our panel was intense. Um, so I want to thank you all again for your I know how hard it is to get on a stage and talk in front of people and share your experiences. [01:10:30] But it's you sharing your experiences that is going to help keep these conversations going and make a difference. Um, we are now moving into our last section of the formalities this evening, which is a Q and a session. So what's going to happen is I would like to introduce our researchers. The first was going to be Nathan Bramwell, our fearless leader, who, unfortunately, as we said, can't be here this evening because he's unwell. Um, but we are lucky that we have two amazing [01:11:00] researchers here this evening from who are responsible for this amazing resource. So we have the Sandra Dickson who is already with us on stage, and I would also like to welcome up the Phra who is going to join us. Lastly, I would also like to welcome to the stage, uh, one of our board members for you, Melissa, [01:11:30] who is going to join us to step in as our Waki representation. So what's gonna happen now is we would like to open the floor, um, so that you can ask some questions and we got the research to our panel. So please be aware we're aiming to do this within a 10 minute time frame. However, our time frames this evening are very fluid, and [01:12:00] we're OK with that. Um, So what's gonna happen is if you would like to ask a question about the research to one of our panel, please raise your hands. I will bring the microphone to you. Um, everything is being recorded this evening, so if you don't want your question recorded, please let us know. Uh, but I will. Yeah. Pass you over to our panel. Um, and if you've got any questions, Chuck your hands up and let's get into it. Second, [01:12:30] um, if you have questions, can we please? Um, focus on on the research at this stage of the evening? Um, rather than on, um, personal stories. Thank I'm Regina Sting from the intersex. Um, was there any stories? Any information about [01:13:00] intersex youth coming out through the research? We, um do you want to answer that for the, um we asked people there if they knew whether or not they were in the sex as part of the survey. Um, we only received a positive response to that from one from the sex person. Um, we had a number of people say they didn't know which was surprising, and we decided that we wouldn't say pulling anything [01:13:30] out from that one person's response because we thought it might be to identify, but certainly in terms of, um, intersex issues more broadly, lots and lots of the people participating both in the focus groups and in the research talk explicitly about wanting information about sex, is wanting science based information about bodies, those kinds of things. Yeah, um, we've got the research itself. Has lots of quotes in it, so it's absolutely worth reading [01:14:00] them to see what? Yeah. Thank you. Can we just put the light up on the, um yeah. No, um, folks, um just wanna do a message to, um to the work that you're doing and also to all everyone on the stage, Um, in terms of intersectionality, where does your research come in proximity to that word. And how does that play out in in the research if it plays out at all? Yeah. [01:14:30] So it wasn't question, um, got intersectionality as a big space. There's so many different intersections that people talked about. Um, and I So I facilitated the focus groups. Um, that we held along with Nate, um, and in those we talked. So in terms of the participation, um, there was a fairly intersectional group there. People talked about wanting, um, a lot of diversity from from facilitators [01:15:00] and from the, I guess, the context of education that they received. They wanted that to be far more interception than it is now to acknowledge different parts of our identities and to work with those in ways that made us feel whole rather than, um, pulled out individual pieces. Yeah, um, in terms of we also wanted to use a framework that looked really holistically at where people are When we talked about how their relationship. So in using, [01:15:30] we actually got information that was really broad, um, broader than we've seen before come through kind of healthy relationships, education. So people didn't talk about a relationship as in the primary sexual relationship with someone. They talked about relationships with farmer. They talked about relationships with themselves. They talked about relationships. They talk about all the kinds of relationships community relationships that need to be right. In order for us to be healthy [01:16:00] people, I guess, um, and so that you'll read that when you when you come to the research as well. Those Australians. OK, thank you. I I'm really interested in that. Thank you for that question. Um, there are lots of interceptions, as you say. What came through in terms of disabled, um, queer young people, if anything. Yeah, um, those are really, [01:16:30] really good questions. Um, so with the survey, we asked people to, um, tell us their gender. Tell us their sexuality, tell us their ethnicity, tell us their, um, things they have difficulty doing so. Disabilities started up, and in terms of the people that answered our survey as as usual with the rainbow community, there was a higher number of young people identifying themselves as having some kind of disability. Um, and there were there was considerable kind of feedback [01:17:00] about neurodivergent identities in particular, and the ways in which, at the moment, the needs are not being met in consent. Education in terms of ethnic diversity, there was a huge amount of commentary around how white all of the healthy relationship material is that we will get Yeah, yeah, And I guess I want to kind of reflect back, um, on something Mama said earlier, which is that I don't know how we can [01:17:30] build a consent culture in New Zealand if we're not, If consent hasn't been enacted in, um so it's really, really, really important that the way we engage with that also talks about colonisation the voices of the young people in the research. Talk about those things really clearly. And, [01:18:00] um, my name is Nicola. I am an honours student from the University of Waikato. Um, my research, my honours project, um, is around gender and sexuality. Um, specifically, um, experiences of people on asexuals spectrum. Um, I was just wondering what, um issues asexuals people brought up in terms of consent, education and sex education and [01:18:30] high schools. That is such a wonderful question. Thank you for asking it. So the first thing was that 11% of the people who answered our survey identified themselves as asexuals, so we never, ever, ever, ever, ever hear anything about issues for asexuality and negotiating consent or negotiating healthy relationships. Um, and we need to quite clearly we need to, right The second thing that became really clear, especially in the focus groups, I think, was that people [01:19:00] talked about, um, people talked about that. Actually, this material has to be relevant to more than just romantic relationships. It has to be relevant to the fabric of relationships around them. So the tonic, relationships, friendships and so on. Part of the reason for that that people talked about was because we we have as people in the community. The other reason that people talked about was that actually, those are the relationships that keep us alive. We really need [01:19:30] material that talks about boundary setting of platonic relationships, boundary setting for a section people that acknowledges all of the ways that human beings with each other and builds on all of the other material out there. So it's quite a strong thread in the research. Yeah, yeah. [01:20:00] Um, were there any concerns or negotiations that you had to do as researchers, um, to to to kind of philtre around one in the filtering process of your research? Were there any negotiations that you had to really have tension points with in regards to not putting [01:20:30] words on behalf of, um, youth? Because I feel like maybe our young you know, they don't know what they know. So we might be putting words in their mouths by engaging in this might be the the first time they engage with the topics itself. So we're leading negotiations or tension points on that aspect. And also again, thank you for your research because it start our conversation. So I'm just really I'm just really moving out right now on my guess. Thank you so much. Um, in terms of the focus group. So we did a bit of talking. We talked quite a lot. We had long focus groups. We [01:21:00] talked heaps about it, and I think, um so in and and lots of what you're reading the research is actually just people's voices, so we didn't have a huge amount of time for this particular project. So there's not a lot of, well, it's not. There's not a lot of analysis, but we haven't kind of spent a whole bunch of time trying to reinterpret what people have said. We've We've presented it as, um, part of the research. It was just really authentic, I think, [01:21:30] in there, um, in terms of I think people, I think there was a peer group work. So the focus groups themselves. We did a lot of small group work. People talked with each other. Um, I Some of those conversations would have been educated for everybody involved in them, including that for myself. So, um, and I think where we thought there was anything in any of the quotes that might be identified, we just didn't use it for stopping [01:22:00] the story. Um, we had one quote that we thought illustrated something particularly important. Um, and it was about how rainbow young folks are often oversexualized by people around them. We went back to that young person to ask if the way that the way we had captured their words reflected, um, whether or not they were having to talk about that, they gave us their consent for that particular quote. Yes, thank you, everyone, for [01:22:30] your questions. Um, if you didn't get an answer, if you didn't get an opportunity to ask your ask your question, um, we will be holding space after the formalities to continue these conversations. Um, so feel free once again to jump into that. Um, And so before we wrap up, um, I really want to extend a massive thank you to our amazing researchers. Um, Sandra, and please give them a round [01:23:00] not only for answering those questions this evening, but for doing the research, doing the and making this resource come to life. Please give them a massive round of applause again. Now, it wouldn't be a launch about us sharing this amazing resource with you. The digital [01:23:30] resource is now available through the scan code available on the flyers we have in the building. Uh, it is on the websites of both and and for those of you who are joining digitally, don't worry about missing out, as you will be emailed a direct link. Um, I have to finish off by saying what an amazing and even this has been full of inside vulnerability, empowerment and authenticity. Thank you to everyone who has shared this evening with [01:24:00] us, whether in person or online, your support and I mean is wholeheartedly received. And we really want to make sure that, well, these discussions in this research is just the beginning. This isn't one of those places where you come along and you show up, and that's it. Um, just from a personal viewpoint, I've been very honoured and privileged to be recently on boarded as the education coordinator here at youth. And I think [01:24:30] this resource along with is going to be what really, um, guides the delivery and what we put together. We've heard these voices, and we know that the resources that are needed are not out there. And if they're not, they are out there. They're not being seen. So we're really on a journey right now to make sure that we stop waiting for things to happen, and we make it happen ourselves. Um, if you do have the capacity to say we warmly invite you to join us in our researchers [01:25:00] and all of our team here at you, Um, along with the youth mentors as well. Um, so that we can share in some more conversation, share in some share in some, and keep these important conversations going and flowing.

IRN: 3423
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/international_aids_candlelight_memorial_2021.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004619
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089913
TITLE: International AIDS Candlelight Memorial (2021)
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VOICES: Cole Hampton; El Prior; Kate Spencer; Kim Wheeler; Kjel Griffiths; Nikki Carlson; Phil Rogers; Richard Benge; Richard Tankersley; Ron Irvine; The Glamaphones; Tim Hope; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Bay Area AIDS Support Services (BASS); Beacons of Hope (Wellington); Beacons of Hope (documentary); Beauty and the Beach (tv); Blue Note Bar; Body Positive; Boy George; Bruce Kilmister; COVID-19 (coronavirus); Caitlyn Jenner; Candlelight Memorials; Christchurch; Daniel Fielding; El Prior; Eve van Grafhorst; Greenlane Clinical Centre (Auckland); Grindr; HIV / AIDS; HIV / AIDS; HIV education; HIV stigma; HIV testing and prevention; HIV transmission; Indonesia; Kate Spencer; Kjel Griffiths; Leonardo Guerchmann; Mark Westmoreland; Melbourne; Michael Haigh; NZ Idol (tv); NZAF Ā whina Centre; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Paul Holmes; Phil Rogers; Phuket; PrEP (Pre-Exposure Prophylaxis); Ron Irvine; Rotorua; Rotorua Lifelink Youthline Service; RuPaul Charles; TVNZ (Television New Zealand); Tararua Tramping Club; Thailand; The Eternal Queers (play); Tim Hope; Tony Simpson; faggot; gay; homo; mantra; memorial; memory keeper; poetry; poofter; remembrance; respect; self harm; self love; stigma; tinder. com; trans; transgender; youtube. com
DATE: 16 May 2021
YEAR: 2021
LOCATION: Tararua Tramping Club, 4 Moncrieff Street, Mount Victoria, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, [00:00:30] to to [00:01:00] or [00:01:30] no or body positive? [00:02:00] Uh uh uh, [00:02:30] In [00:03:00] Yeah. [00:03:30] Yeah. Are and yeah, [00:04:00] yeah. [00:04:30] Mhm that Good afternoon, everybody. How are we this afternoon? Are we good? Good, good. [00:05:00] Thank you to for that beautiful welcome. And welcome to this year's Wellington International AIDS Candlelight Memorial. I am so honoured to be here to host this year's service as we remember those we have lost and the challenge we still face today. Although today might be filled with tears, it does not mean we can't look back on good memories today. We have some amazing people here in our company who will be sharing some incredible stories [00:05:30] and some beautiful art. Now, I'll go through the boring health and safety bit, um, exits that way. And that way I don't know where that leads, but it must mean outside. Um, oxygen is all around you. Um, toilets are downstairs, I'm guessing there. Oh, there we go. Two and one. That's great. And, um, please switch your mobile phones to silent or off. Um, I'd now like to introduce our first batch of performers. They are an inclusive [00:06:00] non audition choir that welcomes gays, lesbians, transgender, intersex and queer people and anyone else that wants to join in on the singing and they will now perform. Don't tell Mama. Please welcome to the stage. The glamour phones, right? [00:06:30] Thinks I'm li I Carnival is by now [00:07:00] doesn't even have as I'm working. Oh, in a pair of lazy pants. Yes. [00:07:30] So hi. [00:08:00] Promise them. Don't want you kindly. Yeah, honey. [00:08:30] So Oh, no. Church on the back doesn't even [00:09:00] happen back to me. Just me [00:09:30] say, hey, yeah, She would drive up to walk and try to pray [00:10:00] Mhm [00:10:30] you like a mummy is the word. [00:11:00] I think there's only one word to describe that camp Very camp. I loved that. I did forget I forgot to introduce myself. So for those who don't know who the heck I am, my name is Cole Hampton. Um, I'm a local drag queen in Wellington, also known as Pam from bulls. Yeah, um, unfortunately, Pam couldn't make it. Um, she's got a multi grain at the moment, so but you've got me. [00:11:30] So, you know, second best, I suppose, um, I'd now like to introduce our first speaker for this afternoon service. They have both lived as male and female in one lifetime, and they were once the big and what was once sorry. Excuse me? What was once the biggest challenge has now become a blessing. They were a New Zealand Idol runner up in 2005, and in 2015, they documented their gender reassignment surgery in 2015 [00:12:00] on Net on the Netflix series, Beauty and the beach. Please welcome to the stage, Nicky. By yourself. Hi. Good evening. It was quite confronting putting this together, Um, knowing that I would be saying these words in front of people. But I've done a lot of things. So this is just another thing. But it's important. So [00:12:30] he asked me to speak about dealing with stigma and how to break down stigma in our rainbow community. The dictionary meaning of stigma is a mark of disgrace associated with a particular circumstance, quality, or person who in this room has felt stigma in their life? Quite a few. Well, I have a unique story, as some of you will too. Um, I've dealt with stigma from two [00:13:00] different sides as a gay man and now, as a transgender woman. Don't get me wrong. I've had a lot of love and support over the years from beautiful, open minded people, but sadly, I have been hurt by stigma. As a gay man, I've been laughed at called Faggot and Homo who who has walked down the street? Who knows what I'm talking about? Walking down the street innocently 15 years old, say I was getting on [00:13:30] with my own life, thinking about my own things and out of the blue, I hear you fucking faggot. Who's had that? Yeah, that's the kind of thing that has really hurt and stuck with me in my life. Um, it's a I heard that I. I probably today still try and get over. It's It's quite painful, um, and uncalled for. Of course, as a transgender woman, I've also been laughed at, not accepted by family and friends and made to feel like a disappointment, [00:14:00] having experienced the disgrace of others, for just being who I was is a feeling of rejection, exclusion or that you are not good enough. This can lead to all sorts of self loathing behaviours, including drug and alcohol abuse, looking for love in all the wrong places and self harming or even suicide. We [00:14:30] need to keep teaching our people the importance of self love and respect for our health and safety to to learn the true value of your being and your unique your unique purpose Here on Earth. I want you to say after me, um, these mantras that I find really empowering um I think it's really important to to speak to yourself sometimes out loud and say some positive things because it's so easy [00:15:00] to run down that that track of negativity. So say after me, I am worthy. OK. Oh, someone really meant it. And I am good enough. Yes, girlfriend you are. I've had to say this to myself many other times because, you know, from those things that happened in my past I I often felt really, um not good enough, basically. So I find that mantras are really good to just stop [00:15:30] your self in your tracks and just say a positive thing and and yeah, keep it positive. Good mantras help to check yourself and make sure you are thinking and speaking positive and looking at life with the glass half full, living openly and honestly has given me the opportunity to connect with like-minded people or other different walks of life. So in 2015, I was living my life in carterton. I was working at the secondhand shop and out of the blue. I [00:16:00] received this email from a friend from years ago and she said to me, I look, I don't know if this is for you, but if you're interested, please apply. And what it was was an opportunity to have gender reassignment surgery. But I had to do it in front of the cameras. And, you know, a lot of girls like myself would think, Oh, yeah, I'm just gonna do it. But when I thought about the cameras there in such a vulnerable time, I didn't know if I really wanted to or could do it. [00:16:30] So I went to bed for three days and really thought about it. And then with the support of my mom, she said, You know, when when are you ever going to have a chance to do this? So, I, I went forward with it. And two weeks after that email, I was found myself in Phuket, um, Thailand, and I couldn't believe it. I mean, I wasn't planning for this. I wasn't knowing that this programme was being made. This documentary was being made and here I was now in Thailand and I [00:17:00] had gender reassignment surgery with a beautiful cast of of camera people and and, um, people behind the scenes that supported me and truly, um, accepted me and, you know, really had my back and and I was so, so lucky and and grateful to have that opportunity. Since then, I've worked in the cosmetics, the elective cosmetic surgery industry as a consultant. So if anyone was interested in cosmetic surgery, including [00:17:30] my, um, transgender girlfriends who are, um, on the transition from male to female, you know, they could come to me And I would, uh, organise their their trips overseas with the right surgeon and, um, help them with that. So that's been a really amazing thing for me to be able to be a part of, Um, but of course, due to covid, that's, um, on hold. And we hope that open the borders will open up one day. Hopefully, by sharing my story, it encourages [00:18:00] and supports others to live their truth. Now, Gerard said, um, to speak about how to break down stigma in our community. Well, I actually thought about it quite hard and I thought it's actually happening. Compared to, say, 1980 I really feel there's so much more information about the different types of people. Um, different lifestyles. Um, it's it's There's so much more information on the Internet TV programmes we're now seeing gay people [00:18:30] on, you know, soap operas or, you know, TV programmes. Um so I I believe that people that aren't a part of that community are now seeing that they're able to see and learn a lot more than they did back in the day. So I really feel like a lot of the education is happening now and an important part of the education is, of course, being yourself, sharing your unique journey because visibility is key. [00:19:00] When I was a kid in the 19 eighties, there was only Boy George that I recognised as being different. There was no ru Paul or Caitlyn Jenner, and there definitely wasn't endless YouTube videos of people documenting their lives and living out loud. People are now being introduced to the rainbow community on a worldwide scale, and at an earlier age, these days due to the exposure and amount of information there is out there. A lot of people have more awareness and understanding to the different kind of [00:19:30] people and that exist. And they may even know someone or a family member. Now, I'd like to share with you before because of the education and the information that is out there now, I actually learned that there is now a medication to help people with HIV live a long life. With this medication, you cannot pass HIV on to your partner. And if you conceive Children, they will not contract HIV. To get this [00:20:00] to get to this point in medical history is thanks to the people who have gone before us and those who worked on the front line to care for and treat people with HIV through the years. So there you go. There's that information that, uh, people are finding out about which is so great and and powerful in closing. I'd just like to really reiterate that it's so important to be yourself to share your story. [00:20:30] Um yeah, and just inform people, educate people, be open. Uh, thank you very much for having me tonight. Um of course. You know, in Wellington and Auckland and in Christchurch we have some amazing support networks and especially in our queer communities. [00:21:00] Members of the support networks here in Wellington and nationally will now give you an update on their organisations. I now invite to speak Matt Sharp from Bosie body positive Kim Wheeler from the New Zealand AIDS Foundation and Richard Ben from beacons of Hope. Sorry, Matt doesn't seem to be here. [00:21:30] Um I'm Kim from the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. I'm here with my colleagues. We are, I guess, a new new faces and new to the community. Um very honoured to be here tonight. I've been with the AIDS Foundation now for five whole months and, um but I bring with me a huge wealth of HIV and AIDS experience. I've worked internationally [00:22:00] for about 15 years in HIV AIDS and countries desperately affected by by the epidemic they continue to be. And I'm very honoured to see how far we've come in New Zealand in regards to contributing to the progression and the healthy lives of people living with HIV again, I would like to remind you that the AIDS Foundation continues its work [00:22:30] in the community continues to provide testing to people who have little or no access to services, people who feel stigmatised in other services. We're also working extremely hard to help other health care providers across New Zealand to understand the importance of having friendly services, inclusive services. And most of all, the New [00:23:00] Zealand AIDS Foundation is still working with people living with HIV. We're now much there is a much more extensive network and I think as you said Nicky, things have changed very much and the AIDS Foundation is moving with that change as well. We are now progressively increasing as I said, our reach into, um into, um, the health services to enable and support the development [00:23:30] of stigma free services. So I would like to say thank you and how honoured we are to be here today. We are all in this room, the memory keepers, and it is a great honour to hold Hold that in our hearts, Thank you very much. I'm Richard Ben, and this is Tim. [00:24:00] Uh, we are working on a documentary. Um, I used to work for the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. Ken and I used to follow on from you. It's a nice Segway, and I can see, uh, friends and colleagues from days gone by. I worked for the AIDS Foundation in 1990 for four years, and at that time when we as we saw in the history that we began tonight's occasion with, uh, things were very different and there was a lot of urgency, a lot of fear and massive [00:24:30] amounts of stigma. I worked for the AIDS Foundation and we had something I heard. We heard something was happening in the United States, and it was called the AIDS Candlelight Memorial, and the first one was held the year before I started. Um uh, it was held in the beehive, and the beehive restrictions were that you could light candles, but you had to put them in a little tray of [00:25:00] dirt, um, and stand in the circle and have some speeches. So I heard about this when I started, and at that stage I was a community activist and an artist, and I'd worked with fire, and I thought, What would it look like if we carried a flaming torch for every person who has died at that stage? It was 100 and 63. And so we marched on Parliament with our flaming torches in a project called Beacons of Hope. So [00:25:30] the international AIDS Candlelight Memorial response in New Zealand for that period was called beacons of Hope. Over the years, I've been approached by people who thought, Well, what happened to that information? What happened to the energy that has it gone? Who cares who's who's lost? Who, who's who's remembering anything? Um And so that's why I've been working with my friend Leo Gershman, who's the director of this film, [00:26:00] Uh, who's busily, uh, editing for TV NZ tonight. So he sends his regard. But our producer, Tim Hope, is here, and, um, I'm going to ask Tim to speak really briefly as well. Why we're here tonight is because we are making a documentary that looks back and collects up the voices, the memorabilia, the experience of people from probably before law reform right through until the late [00:26:30] nineties, sort of a period of intense urgency. And isn't it interesting that that epidemic would have everyone fearful? And now we're making this documentary within another epidemic, And the interesting thing about our work is the question is. How does it and why is it that New Zealand responds to disasters and epidemics and fear in our unique, bicultural way? [00:27:00] I believe that New Zealand, through the needle exchange the the work and, uh, human rights legislation law reform had become We were unique, absolute unique. And we we did things later than the rest of the world. We were fortunate, but we did things in a very unique way. And that's what we'd like to capture in this documentary. Uh, that's why Steve is in the back of the room with the camera. He's recording this celebration this, uh, collection of good people tonight to [00:27:30] talk about to look at how we how we remembering it. Now, what's changed? What is the issue? Stigma is still here. Um, how do we how do the support networks work? So if you'd like to talk to us, uh, afterwards, please do. Um, if you'd like to say anything to camera, you might have a reflection that you'd like to make or leave us with your contact details, and you might be able to take start in a community consultation as the documentary moves along and we build up a body of knowledge that we can present. [00:28:00] Um, hopefully in a, uh completed documentary. It's a process. So here's Tim Hope so, um so I I came to be drawn into this project, Uh, really, from a position of kind of shameful ignorance of not really knowing much about the history of HIV aids in New Zealand. As a gay man who was born in the eighties, I probably should have, um So although the stories have [00:28:30] been told many times over the years, up until this day, I think with the fullness of time and in the context of covid, it's a really good opportunity for us to explore this as a whole project. Um, and so talking to a lot of people over the last while has been quite eye opening for me. And I think that there's a lot of people in my generation and the generation younger than me who would also be in that same position. And I think it's, uh, really a timely project to be undertaking. [00:29:00] So we lost, uh, with, um, one, man approached me one day and said, Richard, uh, our stories are being lost. Uh, no one is remembering what we went through. Does anybody still care? So I don't want to become like a boring old ANZAC character. But when you think about the greatest generations and what they went through, we were called back then to respond, and you [00:29:30] all are still responding. We are all in community responding, and younger generations can only benefit if we share the story and don't keep it. I understand completely because of trauma, that why people closed down. It happened to me. I got quite burnt out at the period and had a long period away from the community, Really? So we need to step up and recall the story so that other people will remember. But here's the thing about the documentary. It absolutely [00:30:00] continually honours the lives of the people we've loved who we lost. That's the first thing because all of those men and women beloved in our community are and continue to be the beacons of hope to [00:30:30] thank you so much. That was really lovely, and I think it's safe to say, you know, people like my age. I'm only 22 we're sitting. We're certainly sitting on your shoulders in history. We're not sitting on ours. We're certainly sitting on yours. I would now like to introduce a poet and a dear friend of mine. Um, she is a poet, performer, podcaster and photographer. There's a lot of peas in there. She has a little bit of everything all wrapped up in mischief and love. And she is absolutely thrilled to be part of [00:31:00] the service. Would you please welcome Kate Spencer? Mm. I was born in 1982 into Thatcher's Britain. Uh, yeah. So a lot of this comes from, um if you saw the TV show, it's a sin. Um, a lot of my my work is informed by that tonight. Um, this is called AIDS then and now. AIDS [00:31:30] then acquired Immuno deficiency syndrome Acquired. Meaning you were far from admired. Blame laying squarely at feet. It's your fault you got this. You should be ashamed. The opportunity of promiscuity. Too much for you. Even though it takes just one acquired meaning. You were fired from jobs long held mired in the politics of the day, betrayed by systemic failure to care [00:32:00] immuno meaning you are marooned in time of greatest need. Typhoons within body something considered necessary. Pruning of society's least wanted no ambiguity that opportunities were taken stolen from a whole community deficiency, meaning only that the world was deficient in compassion, irrational fears. The mainstay of this gay plague. Vague understanding [00:32:30] of major crisis. Nothing done to assuage the feeling that they were second class citizens. That this was a curse on the perverse syndrome, meaning even home was unsafe, locked away alone as it went full blown death without dignity. No one taking responsibility to ensure simplicity of decency. Cocktail of useless drugs to end [00:33:00] AIDS Now now acquired means while it's not the diagnosis you necessarily desired, if it transpires that you do have it be inspired, it's gonna be OK. You're not responsible for the acquisition, and your position in life is unchanged. Immuno means reach for the moon. You are no longer lampooned for being queer. There is nothing to fear for. You can live a long and healthy life [00:33:30] deficiency means a physician sees a way around modern medicine brings hope. A future full of scope, a way to cope with the syndrome and syndrome now means life can be lived at home in full colour. No monochrome misery gravestone. Far in the distance. No longer a sentence, but a paragraph, a chapter, a whole novel ahead. AIDS no longer leads the parade, but is [00:34:00] a side street that we greet with. Oh, hello. But for those from then when AIDS was a short fused grenade, we salute you. We remember you. We love you. It may have acquired you, but we we now admire you. Thank you. [00:34:30] It's absolutely stunning. Um, now we now come to the memorial part of, uh, this afternoon service, um three candles will now be placed on the memorial table representing those who still suffer from discrimination, lack of medications and education and for the organisations working in the field of HIV prevention, I now I now invite Bruce, Kel and Eric to light the three [00:35:00] candles, the lighting of the candles and placing names on the Memorial Memorial tree represents our memories of those who have passed, as well as to raise awareness and hope for the future. And while everyone goes up and lights candle and reflects, I now would like to introduce Al Pryor, who will be singing and playing guitar and singing True colours is a queer [00:35:30] creative jack of all trades. Currently living in Wellington, the Filipino, Chinese, Canadian, New Zealanders. Most recent works include the eternal Queers, which was a play performed in the Wellington Pride Festival this year. And in the show top to bottom, which was part of the fringe festival in 2020 [00:36:00] you with be a real It's hard of people you can [00:36:30] all in the darkness there inside you makes you feel so But I see to come I I see you, OK? That's why I love I to let them show we [00:37:00] all those beautiful like and Oh, I don't feel happy Oh, I last saw you. If [00:37:30] this world makes you crazy and you've taken all you can bear, just call me because you know I'll be there But I see your true sunshine in I So let them show we [00:38:00] that's true are beautiful for like a thing. Ladies and gentlemen, that was just stunning. [00:38:30] Um, we now like to invite anyone, um, up to the open floor, open floor sharing part. Um, And just to remind everyone that there is supper, um, at the conclusion of this memorial and, um yeah, So anyone who would like to come up and share a few words or some experiences or a story, please welcome to do so no one. So no one does. Anyone? Anyone [00:39:00] going once going twice. And so I'm Ron, um, many years ago, um, in Rotorua. I was living in one of my good friends. Is that be? And he died? Michael Hay. Michael was an amazing guy. Um he got told over the phone by his GP [00:39:30] that he was positive, and this was in the late eighties, probably early nineties, and he said, Fuck it. No one is going to be told over the phone again. I'm going to make that my mission. So he had this campaign and he went on homes with Paul Holmes and with and, um and, um [00:40:00] yeah, he was just an amazing guy. And you I at the time, I was actually, um, uh, a volunteer for life link youth line. And he said to me, He says, Hey, we should set up a phone service. So we set up Bay Area Aid Support Service. Beth and we manned those phones. I think it was on a Wednesday night between seven. And nine, and we got all sorts of calls from people asking questions. [00:40:30] Can I get it from a cup? Can I get it from kissing? Um, you know, all these sorts of they seem stupid. Questions are now, but at the time, they were relevant. And so I just want to, um, acknowledge people like Michael, and And he was part of a group that started collective thinking, which was, I think, one of the first magazines that came out for positive people. Um, and, uh, yeah, and I just want to talk to my friend here. [00:41:00] Who's you? Um, last year, his brother died in Indonesia and he was here. He couldn't fly back. He couldn't be with his brother and his in his last few days. And, um, he came here today because he wanted to, um, you know, sort of say goodbye. So, um, hopefully this has helped you. [00:41:30] Um, Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Thanks. Uh, hi. Um, I'm sort of playing the spectre of death. You know, some of us are suffering for having aids, and, you know, we're not getting better. Um, so [00:42:00] it it comes not as the AIDS virus it comes. As for a lot of people, it'll come as cancer. Cancer that shouldn't come early. It'll come to people with HIV. So we are still dying. I have my very own disease. It's undiagnosed, but yeah, I've got very thin skin and I'm sort of wasting away. Hm. There's a lot of new faces [00:42:30] here. I usually recognise most people, but I recognise the and I recognise Bruce Kil, Minister, and, uh, Ron, I'd just like to say that these guys are the ones who brought the medication in before the New Zealand government bought it in for us, you know? Yeah. So there's a few heroes up the front here. Uh, thank you. That's all I have to say. Except I. I lost a friend during COVID [00:43:00] in Tasmania, and he died. He's younger than me, but, um all right. Thanks for being here. No, my name's Phil Rogers, and I was just standing at that tree before, and I just brought back something. Um, I [00:43:30] worked in television in New Zealand for a long time, 30 years, and a lot of some of our producers died of AIDS, and, um, I can't remember the exact date, but I was setting up a television archive at the time so I was able to move around TV, NZ and Avalon and see how things are going, what we're gonna have to do and all that sort of thing. And we had a guy, guy, the name Westmoreland. Now, I don't know if any of you know Mark, but he was one of our most, um, talented producers could do anything. We had [00:44:00] another guy which didn't die of age, but it Malcolm Kemp. But he died early, not of age, but he used to do all the big stuff like, um, opening the Commonwealth Games. Um, we did telethons and all that sort of thing. Well, I went up to the sixth floor of Avalon and not expecting anything because AIDS was not really out there. It was around, OK, but we sort of went over our heads. We we're getting on with our life and you see pictures now of the pandemic on [00:44:30] TV, and you see people that burning the bodies and in the doing everything, I will put it on an equality of that of what I saw on the sixth floor one day, and that was to go up and there was a guy I heard my voice. Who said Oh, Phil, you come to see us? When I turned around and there was what, Mark, I did not recognise him. He was a shadow. He was skinny. He was virtually like a grey. Um, grey colour. To be honest, [00:45:00] the thing that was sparkling in him was his eyes. And I just stood there. I didn't know what to say because I didn't know. I just thought he died. He had cancer or something. And it wasn't until I went out, we had a conversation, and, um, I didn't know what to say. I was just like, how are you or whatever? I just thought, Oh, you know, I've just come up to see this and I went out and I'll tell you what, I went to the toilet and I damn painted, Um, because it was such a shock to see somebody. [00:45:30] It was like a, you know, prison in the cop and walking, and he passed away. And then another producer passed away called John Burningham. Um, so it was quite a shock to see that, And it was something our generation that went to war to sort of funny things and all the things you see and you don't talk about But the other one I've mentioned is Daniel Fielding Daniel. When I left TV, I went into hospitality and Daniel was a a bar manager at the Blue Note the [00:46:00] infamous blue note on, um, the and it was a bar that they wrote, Um, one of my friends, Tony Simpson, wrote a book about a chapter about and he said to go to the Blue Note bar, Um, it was your night up. And if you, um, go there, it's the most colourful bar in the world because it Tony could say things like that. He used to go and have a night chap on the way home and, um, at 3 a. m. and [00:46:30] as you do and he wrote in the book most colourful bar everybody of anything was there, and it was all accepted by 5 a. m. It resembled a zoo. And I said, Well, can I put it on my CV? Can I put a zookeeper? Um, but, you know, there are people like that now. Daniel was a manager of that and he was accepted. He took everybody on board right up to a point where he couldn't do it. He went to Melbourne for a couple of weeks, came back from holiday and he was quite [00:47:00] ill, but it was not. He was on a AIDS medication, but it wasn't that. I think it was a blood clotting problem related to the thing. But he was. He was put unhealthy, more or less standing up right to the point he spent the last three weeks in Wellington Hospital. But the shock of that was suddenly somebody in front of you and going it was invisible. So I come today. I just bought that right back to me. And that's how many years ago for about 40 years. So, you know, I just [00:47:30] thank everybody coming here remembering, and I don't let's not forget that some of us lived and we're still here. It's like covid. You lived through it, push your fingers. You just don't know who's going to get it. So I'm glad to see the presentation today. It's got a lot of hope for people that are still here. OK, thank you. [00:48:00] Um, I'm one of the younger generation that someone mentioned earlier. Um, and obviously I don't have any of my own experiences or stories to share today. But I just wanna say, um, thank you to to the people that have and to say that, um, we really wanna know, like, it's I know it's really difficult for people to talk about this because it's it's massively traumatic. Um, but we wanna we wanna listen. We don't wanna, like, ask those [00:48:30] invasive questions, but when you're ready to share them and like, late tonight like, yeah, we really want to be able to hold your stories and carry your stories into the future for you. So, yeah, Please do talk to younger people in the community about all this because we really, really want to to be able to hold those stories. Um, hi. My name's [00:49:00] Katie. And, um, I, um I wasn't gonna come tonight, and part of that, I think, is me trying to get my head around the fact that for me, um, coming to these events, um, I was always always felt a few generations apart, I suppose. But I now [00:49:30] have a friend who is has told me that they are HIV positive, And, uh, for me, that's brought up lots of, um, personal analysis. around how it is. Um, I feel about that. Um, I'm not necessarily very proud of myself for some of my inner thoughts. Um, the idea of stigma came up earlier on, and for me, it was [00:50:00] about recognising that, um for me personally, I know I am probably guilty of carrying some of that stigma, but hopefully now, um, well, not hopefully. But now I can challenge myself because I have someone who is someone who I know as a friend who has been diagnosed. [00:50:30] Yes, I Yeah. Hi there. I'm Sue. I'm with the glamour phones, and I certainly wasn't expecting his feet, but I just wanted to say something for Owen, who was my brother's always lived in Melbourne. He's an actor, so, um, he can't help it, but, um, and and he didn't always live in Melbourne. He was in Auckland as well. So, um, so his the love of his life, Who he met far too, you know, far too close to when actually Owen died. Um, [00:51:00] Owen was a teacher in Melbourne, and they got together and lovely, lovely men, and they met at the southern Hibernian because they were both beers. So, um Yeah. So I wanted to say something for Owen. Because when Rod was in a play in Christchurch in 91 Owen came across having not talked for a couple of weeks because he was sick. Came across. They were in the same motel for a bit, and he got really sick. He had to go into hospital and died two days later. So he came over here. He had lovely, lovely care [00:51:30] at Christchurch. It was a lot, but really, I think the drugs killed, um, Owen Really? And other other contemporaries of his who didn't take the drugs were actually are still Well, so the the the the older drugs weren't weren't good for health. And, um, I just wanted to remember him because it was It's actually 21 now, And that is many years ago. And, um, yeah, he was a lovely, lovely man. Thank you so much. [00:52:00] Um, I just want to understand that because I've got a friend who, um, she's 96 now, Um, and she's in a rest home, so she can't be here tonight, But, um, her son David died of AIDS, and, um, I'm just thinking about how hard it was for her, Um, not having known that he was gay and the kind of, um who worries about [00:52:30] how alone he felt with that. Um, And she is so proud of him. And, um yeah, as yeah, if she'd known earlier, I know that she would have got to the point of celebrating him, and I just wanted to share on her behalf. Uh, I don't [00:53:00] know how to say, because English is my second language. I hope you can understand. So I've been living in New Zealand for eight years since 2012 in Christchurch for six years in Auckland for two years and now in Wellington, I'm a I was living in crush with my male partner for six years. I've been through with [00:53:30] semi open and very open with him, and I've been living in Phnom Penh as well in Cambodia, and I moved back and we break up because I'm from Indonesia and my parents are a Muslim and really, really practising Muslim. And they they are really wanted me to get married with woman. That's why me [00:54:00] and my partner break up. I married I brought her here to New Zealand, but some of reason she didn't get the visa. And I love her. I love her. That's why I brought her here live with me for one year. But some of the reason the immigration didn't get gave her a visa. And after I get divorced, I very like a little [00:54:30] bit depressed and some of my friends just don't be in yourself and I get wild. I installed grander tinder, Um, but we are really, really, really lucky living in New Zealand because the health system is really good. I went to the, uh, New Zealand Foundation to get tested first [00:55:00] and then second I went to the and then the third one, I went to the Green Lane in Auckland to get prep because I know I'm gonna be wild. I get prep and yeah, III I And until now, still taking my prep for for my whiteness. And I met the guy. I love him and he said [00:55:30] to me, Are you really love me? Yes. I want to say something to you. What is it? And he said, I am a positive and I told him that's not surprise me. And he said, Why? Because so many people that I thought that I am positive they just run away. But why you not run away by you? My name is [00:56:00] the reason I'm not run away Because I got my one hero. He is my brother. He just passed away on May 2020 can get back to Indonesia at that time because that is during Covid. He was diagnosed as like I think, like eight or nine years ago. I knew [00:56:30] it and yeah, he passed away. But he told me. But you be open minded this day. Medication is good. I cannot pass my HIV to family. To you, my brother to parents. And that's why I said to my my man that night I'm not surprised because my brother had that and just passed away. [00:57:00] And I couldn't go back to the to say goodbye. So he is my hero and I want to say thank you to my brother to to open my mind, to be accepting who you are. Even though you are positive or not, because we are the same, we are equal Guys, I wanna say thank you to my brother who [00:57:30] are already in heaven. Thank you. Some really, really amazing stories. I think, you know, brave. That's the vibe. I'm getting very brave. And, you know, does anyone I was watching. I was doing a bit of research, um, coming up to this event, and I sort [00:58:00] of stumbled upon that little girl Eve. And there was a clip that I found some of you who were old enough might remember, um, on Paul homes where, um Paul Holmes said that you can't get it by touch, and Eve kissed him on the cheek very lightly. So I think it would be really good while everyone's welled up with the motion and a bit for if we hug the person next to each other and say I love you. There you go. Look [00:58:30] at that. Right. Going to be, um, I would now like to introduce is a Tai community group based in Wellington that welcomes people of diverse sexualities and gender [00:59:00] identity. Maori are the indigenous people of a in New Zealand in modern terminology. Is a Maori individual that identifies as queer, gay, lesbian, bisexual, trans or trans. The or purpose of the group is primarily for Tai building, its community telling its stories and leaving a legacy that will inspire others exists [00:59:30] through the community and gives meaning to its through different threads advice, advocacy and support of the LGBT Q I community will now give the closing address and sing a [01:00:00] uh, no. Uh uh [01:00:30] [01:01:00] And so we greet once more those who we have called into our presence this evening and our greetings have been complete, the tears have flowed and the farewells [01:01:30] are now being given once more. And so we bid you all to return to return beyond the veil to that place where you reside The true home of the source of all things at the side of your many friends and your ancestors and your relations. And we bid you that. You stay there this day and this night [01:02:00] in pace and rest. No. And to all of us who have survived their passing and continues to be here. Greetings. Once, twice and [01:02:30] three times to us all. Please join us. We need some higher voices to damn [01:03:00] well [01:03:30] Gloria. [01:04:00] [01:04:30] Yeah, [01:05:00] yeah.

IRN: 3411
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/archives_new_zealand_homosexual_law_reform.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004614
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089908
TITLE: Archives New Zealand - Homosexual Law Reform
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Lenette Breytenbach
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Archives New Zealand; Archway (Archives New Zealand); Arthur Conan Doyle; Canada; Civil Union Act (2004); Coalition of Concerned Citizens; Crimes Amendment Bill (1974, Venn Young); Criminal Records (Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences) Act 2018; David Lange; Fran Wilde; HIV / AIDS; Homosexual Law Reform; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Human Rights Commission; Lenette Breytenbach; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Member of Parliament; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF); New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society petition (1968); Pat Downey; Paul Reeves; Pride parade; Royal assent; San Francisco AIDS Clinic; Sisters for Homophile Equality (SHE); United States of America; Wellington; anti discrimination; archives; arson; church; civil unions; deviant; digitisation; equality; expungement; fire; former homosexual; fraud; gay cancer; government; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; human rights; mahi; marriage equality; moral panic; murder; pamphlet; petition; petition in support of homosexual law reform; propaganda; religion; sodomy; stigma; submission; violence
DATE: 26 March 2021
YEAR: 2021
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Lenette Breytenbach, a digitisation assistant at Archives New Zealand, talks about what the archive holds relating to homosexual law reform.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: We collect a number of things, but primarily our collection is previous government records, um, and anything produced by a government agency or things that have been submitted in relation to those documents to Parliament. Uh, we collect these things as a way to keep track of what government has been doing holding them accountable, but also keeping our own history, making sure that we have evidence of what has happened in New Zealand and connecting [00:00:30] the people of New Zealand to their history and their So is it just paper documentation, or do you have have other other media as well? We have a a whole host of media. We have paper and photographs and, uh, random PV C, uh, binders full of eclectic material. But we also have photo negatives. We have an an object store down in the stacks, which has, uh, related media to the paper [00:01:00] documentation. Our primary source of material is paper, but we also have an A V collection. So that means we have, uh, video tapes and cassettes. And we even have old film reels which are digitally preserved by our A V technicians. So how much time has to pass before something from the government, um, ends up at Archives New Zealand. Um, I believe it's 25 years roughly after the creation of the object, but [00:01:30] it really does depend on when agencies are ready to clear their backlog and relate it back to us. Um, and items can be as young as the 19 eighties as these documents. Over here, I've seen documents from the two thousands. Um, if they're of national importance and have already passed through, uh, the, uh, parliamentary procedures such as the civil union bill. That was in 2005, But we already had it here. Um, so [00:02:00] it really depends on the release of those agencies. And so once items are in archives, New Zealand, Is that here forever? Now? Yes. Sometimes, Um, it depends on our collection policy. So our policy is to collect things of national importance, and we will take everything that an agency will present to us, and then it will go through a vetting procedure. And that's to make sure that what we are collecting is relevant to archives, um, and is relevant to preserving [00:02:30] the nation's memory. If we have decided that it doesn't meet our collection policy. We have a disposal authority, but that goes through a number of checks and balances and usually just means finding another home for those materials. And how do you work out what's nationally important? That is what our wonderfully trained archivists are for. They go through and work out the impact of those documents and whether it pertains to people across the nation. Uh, if it say is a document about, [00:03:00] say, Wellington, taxes for pipes or the waterway system in Wellington while we are the nation's capital, that's probably something that's more along the collection policy of Wellington City archives, as opposed to, uh, the Archives of Archives New Zealand. And so something like homosexual law reform that would have been considered a nationally significant event. Of course, it's something that impacted everyday kiwis across the country and had a huge [00:03:30] impact on the lifestyle of both non homosexuals and homosexuals. So what has archives New Zealand collected, Um, from that period from the from the eighties? Well, we have a wonderful selection of both submissions from the public, as well as items from, uh, the drafting of the bill itself. Uh, we have a book that was created in opposition to the homosexual law reform bill and was partnered with, uh, the anti [00:04:00] homosexual law reform petition. Um, it was used as I guess, a talking point. Or I guess we would now refer to it maybe as propaganda. Um, talking about how homosexuality is a deviant behaviour and is of moral concern. Um, primarily, though we do have the public submissions, the draughts of the document and, of course, the ascended bill itself. So just thinking about this, uh, this pamphlet here, this [00:04:30] is so the social effects of homosexuality in New Zealand. Why is it important to keep something like this, which you would now class as potentially propaganda? Well, it gives a good understanding of how public perception was going on at the time. It gives you an understanding of who were really the most vocal proponents and opposition in regarding to this bill. And it gives a really clear understanding of how far the Kiwi community were [00:05:00] willing to go to oppose something like the homosexual law reform bill. It talks to how the moral panic of the time really was focused on homosexuality as a deviance. It's something that is not OK? And how dare we even consider legalising it? Um, so yeah, so these interesting records, they're they're fascinating, especially, um, in just understanding the perspectives of some individuals, [00:05:30] for example, uh, in this propaganda piece, we have testimony of a former homosexual and it it starts the entire pamphlet out so that you can kind of ease in the concept that it's something that can be reformed. It's something that can be reversed or chosen against, and it then continues on using a variety of media such as some quotes from Arthur Conan Doyle as well as biblical excerpts and just [00:06:00] a number of pseudo logical attempts at saying that homosexuality should just be shoved under the rug. We should ignore it. They absolutely make a point of referring to the AIDS epidemic and referring to how that is something that is definitely purposefully being sent against the people of the gay community. Um, and how this is even more evidence that we shouldn't legalise it because [00:06:30] the gay cancer is coming around. And surely we know that this is proof that this shouldn't be legal and and this is produced by is it the coalition of Concerned Citizens it is. Indeed, they are somewhat famous for being in opposition of the homosexual law reform bill. Uh, I would probably say infamous. Uh, they started a mass petition around the country. Um, that had around 51 boxes, and they claimed up to [00:07:00] 800,000 signatures. But if you look on our, um, production sheet, you'll actually be able to see that we've only registered 581,278. On top of that, uh, it was noted when the bill was received originally that some of those signatures seemed to be in the same hand. So there was a lot of contention regarding these submissions. So this is prior to I'm guessing things like, um, optical character recognition. So has [00:07:30] somebody actually gone through and counted all those signatures? I'm assuming so, Yes. That would be the likely outcome if not by just looking at the average number of signatures per page and then telling a rough average. Um, but I believe it was the job of the person who received this box to just go through and process the public opinion. So do you hold the entire anti law reform petition. No, we do not. I was only able to find, [00:08:00] um, a small excerpt of it. We have a partial, uh, page of signatures. However, I believe as a result of the petition not being accepted by parliament, it was declined to be accepted in opposition of this bill. Um, I believe that meant that we did not need to collect the entirety of it in terms of the original petition. However, we do have a very [00:08:30] large collection. Um, of public submissions of people saying, Actually, could you remove my name from that petition, please? So it's found amongst the, um, submissions that were put forward by members of the public in either support or opposition of the homosexual law reform bill. And it is a full stack of items. That's just people wanting to get their name stricken from the bill as either they've had [00:09:00] a change of heart. Or they realised that the Coalition of Concerned Citizens had used less than friendly tactics to get their signature. So all of this correspondence has this all been documented and, um, recorded in a in a collection management system. We do have a collection management system. It's called archway. Um, it's accessible by the public and can be searched by members of the public. We do also have a staff version that goes into a little bit more detail to help us find records [00:09:30] on behalf of the public. Um, but this particular section itself is a sub item within this larger item. So what that means is, while you can't search for opposition to this petition, you can search for submissions on the petition and then rifle through, have a bit of a a search. One of the joys of archives is that no matter what you're doing, and no matter where you're looking, it's a bit of an adventure, and you never really know what you're gonna find. So would you be able [00:10:00] to, um, say, locate a family member who either signed or didn't sign the petition? No. So, unfortunately, it isn't listed as of yet to an individual level like that. Um, something like that can be done on major documents like the Treaty of Waitangi, the women's suffrage petition. Um, but special work has been done to make it that list searchable. Um, another reason why that wouldn't simply be possible is because we do not have [00:10:30] that full petition. It's not really possible for people to be able to tell if family members were signatories or not. Uh, I would say that the closest look that you can take for seeing if family members were in support or in opposition is to come and read through the submissions that we have. These submissions come with very personal and moving stories. A lot of the times these people are talking from very [00:11:00] sincere places of either hurt or fervent belief. And it's very moving to understand where these people are coming from. On either side of this story, you can see the genuine belief and fear in the hearts of people who think that homosexual law reform is going to destroy the country. And you can understand to some extent that it is simply misinformation or being misguided or holding [00:11:30] on to these religious, fervent beliefs that just makes people believe that no, homosexuality is not OK in opposition. You see thousands and thousands of people writing and saying Please, yes, I am homosexual. I would love to be able to talk about it. I would love to be able to be openly gay without fear of being arrested or walking down the street without fear of being attacked. And it's it's heartbreaking, but it's also [00:12:00] so affirming to read and know that we've made these changes. Now what is it like for you personally? When you go into a file like this and and start reading some of that correspondence? Well, it's tough, especially when you go through and you read the material that has, uh, some very interesting language. Um, obviously, all of this uses period typical homophobia, and it's it can be very [00:12:30] draining to read page after page of someone saying you shouldn't exist. You shouldn't be able to do what you're doing. There is a slight difference in that, uh, being assigned female at birth. I would never have been legislated against um, However, being a homosexual man was completely illegal and very, very dangerous to do, and it was very rough, and you can see that in some of these texts I have. [00:13:00] I've identified one in particular. That was just frustrating because it was a preacher who was avid, absolutely avid, that, you know, it's only going to be terrible for the public and an awful awful thing if homosexuals are allowed to exist in the illegal status. However, within the exact same sentence, he's saying that when he last saw two men embracing it, Dr gave [00:13:30] him such a rage. He almost was driven to murder. And I'm just like, sir, you're a priest. But also, it's It's such violent reactions to something that's as simple as love. I just I can't even begin to comprehend it. Um, and it makes you really grateful for the time period that you live in. I am so lucky to have been born into a New Zealand where this is allowed and we are allowed to [00:14:00] get married. And we're allowed to live our lives without that constant, persistent fear of being prosecuted just for existing. I guess one of the things that didn't make it during homosexual law reform in the mid eighties was the anti discrimination measures which happened in, uh, was it 93 94? Yeah. Yeah. So do you have material around the Human Rights Act as well? Um, yes, we absolutely do. We have, um, work [00:14:30] from a number of people, and we even have submissions by the Human Rights Commission. Um trying to get that second element of the homosexual law reform bill passed. Unfortunately, it was just not going to happen in the form that it was at. Um, I suspect because of opposition to what that would mean for members serving in the military. Um, because even though there were numerous attempts at providing a an exemption for military [00:15:00] service people, um, they were still not allowed to be queer in those spaces. Uh, this did change in 1993 with that adjustment to the Human Rights Commission, But up until that time period, there was still a large amount of communication regarding what about service people? How do we keep them discriminated against and in no other terms, uh, how do we protect the their heterosexual [00:15:30] counterparts? Um, so even though the Human Rights Commission themselves put forward an entire submission regarding how this form of discrimination is a violation of individual human rights, that second part of the bill was just never going to cross the line, um, in its current form at that time, because it was just massive opposition. So from my perspective, I see that what they did [00:16:00] was they pushed what they could, and they kept the mahi going into the future. So while they were never able to really do what they were planning to do with this first form of the bill, they made tiny progressions that nowadays, the true intent of this bill has been enacted. And that's been able to be done through that adjustment to the Human Rights Commission bill to, uh, civil unions and, of course, the same sex marriage bill of 2012. [00:16:30] And it's interesting seeing this Human Rights Commission submission because, um, that is quite a movement from where they were, say, in, like 1980 81 with, um, Pat Downey, who was pretty much against, um, homosexuality. Yeah, no, it's It's quite a change because you see, uh, previous attempts at law reform from the seventies and from 68 and it never really managed to get any ground, especially because people were trying for this True equality [00:17:00] and the social progression just wasn't willing to accept it just yet, even though you had individuals and groups like, uh, the Sisters for homophile equality, Um, they were out there doing the in 1968 I believe, trying to get people to recognise that homosexuals are people just like you and actively petitioning courts, actively petitioning government, trying to get this recognition of We are the same. [00:17:30] And it's it's fascinating to see how quickly that dynamic shifted from the sixties up until 93. 30 years is a very short period of time for the public to completely switch their opinion. And that seems to have been what happened in that even though the Human Rights Commission initially were hesitant or, you know, weren't willing or ready to make these changes by 93 it was a social movement that could not be stopped. We [00:18:00] had pride parades occurring around the country. We had much more support from non homosexuals and from government itself. Um, and of course, when you have this growing momentum, the government starts looking not great if they're not supporting what their community is. Well, speaking of support, were there, um, documents in the archives or collected by government that were in support of homosexual law reform? There were, in fact, we [00:18:30] even have a full, uh, petition in support of homosexual law reform. Uh, which was put forward right here. Um, I could not find further context beyond it being part of these submissions. But I would not be surprised if it was someone seeing that there was a petition in opposition being like Oh, I'm not with that. Let's do something better These are all directed to Fran Wilde, who put forward the homosexual law reform [00:19:00] bill. And it's pages upon pages of signatures that we have kept in their entirety and which will be digitised in future so that you can go through and look and see members of your family as signatories. They do have addresses and phone numbers. They've got people's, uh, snippets of people's lives attached to them. And what's interesting is [00:19:30] that the the pages that you're looking at are from the US and Canada. Yes, so it was support all across the world. We have, um, support from, uh, the San Francisco AIDS Clinic, uh, which spoke to how homosexual law reform would actually be an amazing opportunity to push public health care, uh, for support for people who are suffering from AIDS by making it harder for people to say I [00:20:00] am gay and I am suffering from this disease. The fear of being prosecuted for even saying The first part of that prevented people from seeking out help. And as we know now, AIDS was the silent killer of millions of people across the world, and it was even hard in places where it was legal to be gay to get that help. So by creating this additional hindrance and accessing the care that people needed, [00:20:30] we were adding to the death toll. But thankfully the bill was passed, and so it made it easier for people to access health care, get support groups and get that communal assistance that they really desperately needed. So, uh, that's something that was brought up by the San Francisco clinic. They pointed out that because people were even scared to. I mean, no one wanted to admit they had AIDS. It was [00:21:00] the buzzword that no one wanted to talk about but was on everyone's lips. But adding that fear of prosecution on top of the stigmatisation was just a whole other level. So when San Francisco heard that we were even considering this bill, they wrote to us and they said, Hold on, it's still illegal to be gay in New Zealand. We thought you were progressive. We thought you were ahead of the game. Um and then they said, Well, this [00:21:30] is only going to kill more New Zealanders. You need to do something and it's a very fascinating piece of material. So here, you can see, um, the New Zealand AIDS Foundation and the San Francisco AIDS Clinic worked together to try to provide assistance to people suffering from AIDS in New Zealand. And there's this fascinating part where they see, um a [00:22:00] necessary precondition, uh, to helping solve the AIDS crisis is the repeal of any law that inhibits such education, the education being of how to have safe sex between gay men because basic sex education for homosexuality. And, uh, anyone who was a sexual deviant in so-called terms was just non-existent. So by providing an opportunity and an avenue for [00:22:30] people to learn that hey, maybe we should be using condoms. Maybe we should be practising safe sex. Maybe we should be going to a venereal disease clinic. Um, these little basic things that we know now have such a huge impact on health. People were desperately screaming at us, trying to tell us, and because of the stigmatisation just wasn't possible. You mentioned earlier about Fran Wild. And, um, there was that, [00:23:00] uh, unfortunate incident a couple of years ago where a lot of her personal papers went up in an arson in. And I'm wondering, what is the requirement for members of parliament to either, um, donate their papers to archives New Zealand or or keep them? Um well, our collection, uh, authority and our obligation to protect papers, um, has put in place a system where we we very nicely ask agencies [00:23:30] after 25 years of creation of a document, could you pretty please hand them over to us so that we can make sure that they kept safe? Um, in the case of the wild papers, it was believed that they were in a secure, safe location. And it was an awful incident that was just pure bad luck, because it wasn't well known that all her papers were there and they were an unfortunate bystander in in this incident. Um, and it's [00:24:00] a story that is has been echoed in the creation of archives New Zealand. I mean, we exist as an institution as a result of a parliamentary house fire that almost destroyed a number of records that were being kept over at Parliament. And so in 1956 everything was moved over into this building to make sure that such thing could not happen again to these papers and books of national importance. So it's It's an unfortunate [00:24:30] lesson that we've had to learn a couple of times, and it's it's really unfortunate when we do lose such amazing pieces of our history. Um, and it's it's very, very sad that we we do not have access to these papers. Do you also get, uh, members of Parliament who actively push their papers into archives? New Zealand? Um, not that I'm personally aware of, uh, people tend to be quite happy to hoard their their own materials. [00:25:00] Um, but there is also the unfortunate thing of archives New Zealand. Our building is got a limited space. We do not have the ability to take absolutely everything. Um, simply because we do not have a number of shelves available. However, we are building a new building. So if any of those MP S would like to start shoving their papers towards us, we'd be more than happy. The more that we can collect, the more that we can preserve the better opportunity there is for transparency between [00:25:30] members of the public and what is going on in Parliament. It enables us to hold Parliament to account and make sure that nothing cheeky is going on. Um, and that allows for things such as the Royal Commission of Inquiry into historic abuse, uh, to come through and hold, uh, government agencies to account. It's something that enabled the expunging of, um, the criminal records of those who were prosecuted for being homosexual. These [00:26:00] things are made possible by the fact that we take very good care and are very careful with these old records. I'm just thinking of the amount of paper that must have been generated or probably still is generated. When, um, legislation goes through Parliament, you've got obviously the final finished act. But do you have other kind of government related papers as well? We have, I would say, maybe 10 boxes of draughts [00:26:30] of the homosexual law reform bill. We have boxes and boxes of submissions when a bill that has such public awareness as this one passes through. Yes, there is a seemingly endless supply of paper that is produced as a result. Um, but the same is true of of a number of bills. When a bill goes through Parliament and has a number of sittings or amendments, we keep track [00:27:00] of all of those changes so that we can see who added what at what time. For what reason? It adds to our ability to hold government to account, but also helps you just keep track of where these decisions come from and why these decisions have been made. And you're also the holder of the final act that the signed legislation yet? Yes, Yes, we are. We're very fortunate to hold the assented acts in our repository. [00:27:30] We have a nice little collection of the actual bills that are passed in Parliament. Um, and then secondarily passed on to the Governor General and the prime minister to be signed. We keep these so that we can have that nice, perfectly preserved, uh, copy. Uh, well, it's the original. Everyone else gets the copy. Um, but it's because it is such a huge piece of New Zealand history. Every bill that gets passed makes a huge change in a number of Kiwis lives, [00:28:00] and we want to be able to show people, you know, this is the document that made you legal to exist. Can I see the document? Yes, of course. Making me legal. It's, uh it's so exciting, because it it's something that you go through. And you're like, Oh, yes. No. Surely. Surely it's just legal to exist as a human, but nope. This bill is what made it legal for millions of kiwis to walk around, unafraid of who they are [00:28:30] and unashamed of who they are. And it made a huge impact on everyone's lives, obviously. And I mean not just the homosexuals. Uh, this did also impact, um, heterosexual sexual encounters in that sodomy was illegal for everyone. Uh, prior to 1986 regardless of if it was male, on male or male and female. Um, so this this really did change everything for everyone. [00:29:00] But the focus was, of course, on the impact on homosexual kiwis. Um, and you'll see here. There is that exemption, uh, being put forward for the armed forces. This is something that was argued over several times and the draught of the bill over there. I think I saw maybe five different iterations just for this section, and that is only one of a number of of, uh, copies of draughts. Um, so [00:29:30] that would inevitably be changed in 93. But it was something that really did hold up a lot of work on this bill. And so who who signed this bill? So we have the clerk of the House of Representatives and the attorney General. And, uh, the two big names that usually appear on the passing of these bills are the Prime Minister, who at this time was David Lange. And we also have the governor General, Sir Paul Reeves. And so Paul signed it on the 11th of July [00:30:00] 1986. So that's what, two days after it was actually passed in parliament. So they they got through it pretty fast. They really did, Uh, the bill itself was enacted in August of that year, so it really had a high turnover. Um, I think probably because of public pressure. You were saying earlier about, um, some digitization of of these items. Um, how are you digitising everything? How how is how is that working? So, uh, we have a schedule [00:30:30] to digitise, uh, the items that I've got on show for you today by July the ninth, the 35th anniversary, of course, of the home sexual law reform bill. Um, but we do have further plans to continue the work in digitising These, uh, the series of of documents. Things relating to the homosexual law reform bill, Uh, public actions that were being taken surrounding those dates. Um, and of course, kind of the impact into the nineties [00:31:00] of how were people adjusting with this new way of life? Essentially, um, these are all being done by our digitization team down on level one. And they are a very busy team. But they have made an exception for us in making sure that there is a steady flow of these materials being digitised. Uh, so every page is scanned, every image is collected, and they will be available online on Archway, our searchable portal.

IRN: 3416
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/trans_archives_zine_launch.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004617
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089911
TITLE: Trans Archives Zine launch
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Awatea Rotherham; Caitlin Lynch; Jack Hitchcox; Jas Brooks; June Stephens; Louie Zalk-Neale; Rei Denee; Roger Swanson; Vee C M; Will Hansen; Yuri Zhigang Zheng
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1990s; 2020s; Achilles; Alexander the Great; Aotearoa New Zealand; Awatea Rotherham; Billy Tipton; Caitlin Lynch; Carmen Rupe; Chrissy Witoko; Devotion (Wellington); Devotion the Magazine; Hephaestion; Hero (Auckland); Hero Magazine; Homer; Iliad (poem); Jack Hitchcox; James Barry; Jas Brooks; June Stephens; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Liam Reid; Louie Zalk-Neale; Massey University; Mika X; National Library of New Zealand; Newtown Community and Cultural Centre; Patroclus; Rei Denee; The Archive is Alive (zine); TranScribe (magazine); Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); Vee C M; Wellington; Wellington Pride; Wellington Pride Festival (2021); Wellington Zine Fest; Will Hansen; Youth; Yuri Zhigang Zheng; archives; cisgender; fashion; gender expression; gender identity; gender woo woo; instagram. com; intersex; invisibility; invisiblising; queer; sexual identity; trans; trans pride; trans shame; trans visibility; transfeminine; transgender; transgender activism; transition; transmasculine; transmasculinity; transphobia; zines
DATE: 30 March 2021
YEAR: 2021
LOCATION: National Library of New Zealand, 70 Molesworth Street, Thorndon, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the launch of the second volume of the collaborative zine The Archive is Alive. The zine was the outcome of an intensive archival workshop. Participants delved into LAGANZ (Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand) to discover posters, leaflets, photos and other ephemera relating to transgender and intersex lives and culture in Aotearoa. The zine reproduced some of this material and reflected on the importance of local queer history to us today. The launch happened at the National Library of New Zealand on Tuesday 30 March 2020. The zine is available as a free pdf digital download
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: [00:00:30] Welcome. Thank you so much for coming tonight. Uh, we are so excited to be here to launch The archive is alive. Volume two, the gin. Um, how this is gonna run is I'm gonna pass over to Will Henson, And he's gonna give you, uh, [00:01:00] amazing talk. I was gonna say little, but it probably won't be little. An amazing if anyone knows, will, um, we was gonna talk a bit about the I don't know idea behind this project, um, and why it's important. And yeah, just a bit about the of this, this thing, uh, in the the archives project more broadly, Um, and, yeah, a bit about the importance of Logans as well. Um, yeah. And then after that, we're gonna welcome [00:01:30] any of the Zen contributors up to just give a brief little talk to you about their page and a bit of background information about it. Um, or their experience of this awesome project? Yeah. And then So that will probably take about half an hour. And then after that, have another drink. You know, chat to your neighbour, meet some new people. Cool. Thank you so much. Everyone. Um thank you all. So much [00:02:00] for coming out tonight. Uh, for those who don't know me, my name is Will Henson. I'm a trans historian, and I'm a trustee of the Lisbon and Gay Archives of New Zealand, otherwise known as legs. Um, I'm really excited to launch. The second edition of our archive is a live scene, um, which was made in collaboration between Lagan and the National and Wellington Zine Fest with the generous support of the national library. Um, so thank you. Yeah, it's pretty awesome. So for those of you who are new to the archive of Align [00:02:30] the live zine series, um, welcome, This project was born because Caitlin and I, uh, were studying history at university. And we got really frustrated with how inaccessible archives and history, um, were to mo are to most people. Um, And although we try really hard at Lagan to make history and archiving accessible, we are entirely volunteer run and we rely on grants and the goodwill of donors to survive. So if you have money, I'll give a little is online. Just Google give a little leg Rainbow history. [00:03:00] It'll come up anyway. So to see our archives, you have to be on site in Wellington, you have to have the confidence and the privilege to navigate an archival institution. Um, and it's not easy, especially if you're a young person, so it can be really daunting and intimidating. And we wanted to, um, Wellington and work together on this project because we wanted to try and be helpful to our community. Um, believing that queer youth needed to be uplifted. Um, well, this is my favourite students. I say it all the time and it sounds cheesy, but I'm a pisces. So [00:03:30] I think it's OK. We we believe that queer youths need to know that you are history in the making. Your life is important, your archive is important. And I hope that everyone who engages with the zine can understand that and can feel the same. So, uh so although the first volume of the archive is alive was focused more generally on aotearoa beautiful queer history. Um, when Liam and Caitlin suggested to me that this edition should be, um, exclusively [00:04:00] focused on trans history, I was pretty excited because trans history is like the greatest love of my life. So my flatmates are laughing at me. trans history is so often dismissed and invisible, and the fact that it is made invisible is weaponized by turfs and other trans phobes. Um, more generally to invalidate us, to suggest that we are some new perverted sin, a sick fad, blah, blah, blah, destroying the traditional pillars of the community. All of that stuff, [00:04:30] same arguments that were trotted out against gay people are still trotted out against gay people. Um, but Trans people have always been here. We are so lucky to have the trans history that we have in this country. Um, the from wonderful like and Chris who have led the way, um, to our less well known transistors who have been fighting for our liberation since colonisers brought transphobia to this land. We stand on their shoulders and kind of the whole reason I wanna do the history [00:05:00] stuff that I wanna do is because I wanna help trans people to see this history for themselves. And I feel so lucky that I had this opportunity through this, um project to do that. So a few weeks ago, we put out a call for a small group of trans participants to engage in an intensive two day workshop, uh, which we put on during the first weekend of pride. We spent day one right here in the national Library, uh, treated to a talk by Roger Swanson, and I gave a couple of talks as well about our transistor and stuff. And then, finally, participants were able to have [00:05:30] the opportunity to sit down and explore the archives themselves. We had lots of discussions about how to approach history critically balancing between the pains and the joys of our past between critical reflection recognition that our transistors aren't perfect and also holding a lot of compassion for our transistors, who most of the time were just doing their best with what they had. Day two saw us head over to the new town community and cultural centre to get creative and start making our zine together. We love Volume one so much, um, the pages. But the [00:06:00] pages of the zine were pretty abstract for the first volume, with little writing explaining, um, participants thoughts about the zine page or, more generally, about the workshop. And then, during the last launch that we had so many of the participants got up and they spoke so beautifully about their zine pages and about history and archiving and the workshops. Um, and I was pretty overwhelmed by by how well they spoke about everything. And I was like, Oh, no, why didn't we get them to write that down? So it's actually in the zine for everyone to see. So, um, for Volume two, we encourage participants to take some time [00:06:30] to write down, uh, their thoughts. And again, I'm gonna sound cheesy. But I honestly felt in their tears, uh, reading some of these pages, it really pulled at my heart strings. And it just made me feel so glad that we did this workshop because I think that everyone really felt a lot of things, Uh, when they were in the archives, which is pretty beautiful and I think pretty important. So we call this scene series. The archive is alive because history is speaking to us all of the time. And it's so important that we listen to the people of the past and that we learn to listen well. And that's something that I'm [00:07:00] so proud to say all of our participants did. The ability to listen and learn from history is a lifelong skill that we're all engaged in. And for queer people, it can be a life saving one, learning the legacies of queer struggle and queer joy and everything that we are born into our histories that have so long been silenced and yanked away from us gives us a sense of power, gives us a sense of pride and gives us a sense of belonging. For me personally, history is absolutely vital as a reminder that just as my ancestors have fought for change in the past, I will continue [00:07:30] to fight for change today and know that just as things have already changed so much, they will continue to change again. The archive is alive is also a reflection of the fact that despite attempts to erase both queer history in general and Lagan specifically including a very literal attempt to erase Lagan in 1986 when the archive was attacked by arsonists, this archive has continued to thrive. And now the subtitle, The Gender Woo Woo, basically one of the other events [00:08:00] that I was involved in, was called Exploring Queer Archives and the Facebook event, for it received a handful of hateful comments from people who weren't so happy about our use of the word queer. And while I'm definitely sympathetic to those for whom that word is still a hard word, queer is also generally accepted as a reclaimed word. And it is so useful because it helps us to name our various communities of diverse genders, sexualities and sex characteristics without getting into limiting and westernised acronyms. And to be honest, I also really like it because queer [00:08:30] has teeth. It resists our movement being neutered and reminds us of our political imperatives. But the Facebook commenters didn't see things this way, and they were particularly upset that we were not focused exclusively on cisgender gays and hated that we were including the gender Woo woo alphabet soup crowd in the archives. One really angry guy commented that he was ready to prosecute us with the Human Rights Commission for using queer instead of gay. So naturally I was shaking in my boots and [00:09:00] and and this will happen during the workshop weekend. So I had to rely on everyone else for support, and when I told all the other workshop participants about it, Caitlin made a really funny comment that that should be the title of the scene, and everyone kind of joked about it, but it just stuck. I found out afterwards that actually, gender Woo woo is, uh, something that is, is a term that's used by a lot of trans votes online. Somehow I missed that even though I'm online a lot, but, um, to me, it just sounds really funny. It kind of sounds like the sex noise and the Sims. It feels [00:09:30] it feels like a party, and it's the name I think I'd have if I were a DJ. So I I really, really love it. And in all seriousness, I think it's pretty perfect because it captures the strategy that Trans people have used throughout our history of taking something that's meant to harm us and twisting it around with humour to instead bring us joy and bring us power. And these strategies of resistance are so important in our fight for trans liberation. And I love that we can use just a small example in our Zen [00:10:00] this scene wouldn't have been possible without the efforts of so many people. Um, thank you. Firstly, to Caitlin and Liam from Wellington Zine fest. Um there's none of this would have happened without them. I love them both very much, and I'm always in awe of both of them and the way that they are so passionate about supporting local creatives and activists and communities on all volunteer time. And I just think that Wellington is so lucky to have them both. And you make me feel so loved and supported. And I'm so lucky to be friends with both of you a massive thank you. Also [00:10:30] to Roger, my awesome mentor and Gans hero, Um, I've talked about you a million zillion times over the past weeks and you've been at, like, every talk I've done, So you're probably getting sick of it. But you deserve all of this recognition and way more for the huge amount of again volunteer hours that Roger does for the archive in general. But also for this project also a big thank you to Zoe Williams and Zoe Rowland from public programmes at the National Library. Um, thank you for putting up with my atrocious emailing skills, Um, and for all your generous [00:11:00] and awesome support on this project, but most of all, the biggest thank you to Volume two The Gender Woo Woo contributors AA I, Elliott, Jack Jazz, Jessie, June Kiri, Kofi, Louie, Ray, V and Y. You were such a truly wonderful group, and I feel really lucky to have had the chance to create with you. It was a really enjoyable couple of days. And I hope that you're all really proud of the final product cos I'm so proud of it myself. Um, and lastly, just thank you to everyone here who's come to our launch party. [00:11:30] I hope you all have a woo woo of a trans sexually gendered evening. And now I'd like to bring up Roger Swanson from the lesbian and Gay Archives to our official handover. Oh, my God. I don't have a Zen. I did this last time. Roger. Would you like to come up a round of applause for Roger? [00:12:00] Here you go. You Well, thank you, will. That's fabulous. And I and I love your constant reference to me as your mentor, and you know, it does. My ego wonders. Um, So So So it's lovely to see you all here at the National Library. And, uh, for this launch, it's fabulous. And I'm really you know, I. I thought we got volume one. Done. Wow, that's great. You know? And we now have two. You [00:12:30] know, sometimes you think these things don't actually continue on, but the energy and the the work that's gone into this is fabulous. And one of the things I really have been impressed with with the those who have come along to make this, um um, they have been really a fabulous crowd. Um wonderful. Um, energy, sincerity, um, determination to, um, look at the archives and reflect on what's there and what affects them and how it speaks to them. And the archive is alive. It really is a rather [00:13:00] than a collection of old, dusty shelves or things on shelves that nobody looks at, that they are bringing them to alive and creating new stuff, which is what the archive is all about. Um, we're about looking back at our history, finding things that resonate, telling those stories to future generations to people today. And it's just great that young people today are producing fabulous things like this. And it's just wonderful. So thank you very much. Thank you, Ma. [00:13:30] Thank you. Roger. Um so yeah, if any of the participants would like to get off and talk about their pages. No, appreciate, but be lovely. Does anyone can raise King round of A for OK, um, I'm gonna try to talk briefly. I won't, but I'm gonna try to [00:14:00] um Yeah, uh, I found exploring the archives to be a super special experience. Um, I ended up a lot of the time. I would, like, read something. It made me feel really special. And I would go super loudly and then just go over to whoever looked up at the noise and read it out loud to them. I'm sure I annoyed everyone around me, and it was real fun. Um, yeah, it felt like there was just so much material in this tiny fraction of the archives that was brought out for us, which is itself such a tiny [00:14:30] fraction of New Zealand's trans history. And it was kind of dizzying the amount of it all. It was a really, really exciting feeling. Um, yeah. I ended up choosing a page from a magazine called Transcribe, which, uh was kind of like a guide on how to lower your voice by sitting down with a tape recorder and recording yourself over and over and over against the floor. And [00:15:00] it really connected to me because I see that a lot in what I do with, um, like me and my phone and my little pitch analyzer app that genders your voice. Um, and I just felt this, like, hit of connection to this person who I'd never met before and never will. Um, I found that the image of someone kind of sitting on their floor in a really well loved chair recording themselves over and over and listening back to it looking for these tiny, imperceptible changes in voice [00:15:30] and getting so excited when you hear them is one that is so euphoric and joyful and also kind of desperate and tragic. And I found that duality between trans shame and trans pride to be really interesting. Um, so I wanted to make some art around that and that feeling, and I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to feel about that, but I know that it makes me feel loved. And I know that it makes me feel less alone. And I think that that's worth creating about, [00:16:00] Um oh, I've got all my notes on my arm. So if I'm, like, staring at that, that's why it's not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just I'm just really grateful for the opportunity to connect to our trans history in a super unique way and for the opportunity to then share that with others now and in the future. I think that's really cool. Yeah. [00:16:30] Is any Is anyone else keen to come up? That was beautiful. Thank you, Ray. I'll see you, June. Yeah, And big. Of course, to come up and stay. Thank you. So thank you. Um, I'm gonna apologise. I don't have quite as well prepared for a little speech. I don't have any writing on my own, which I kind of wish I did, because it was a really beautiful, beautiful, thoughtful reflection. Um, but [00:17:00] I just want to say a little bit about, um, my page, which is, I think, the one Yes, the page right before the last one. Um, so when we were looking through the material, um, I think everyone had somewhat similar sort of experiences of feeling like some things hadn't changed all that much since maybe the eighties or the nineties. And it's just kind of like, Oh, OK, we're still going through the [00:17:30] same stuff that these people did back then. Um, and for me, I have had a lot of sort of changing and how I my gender identity and my gender identity and my sexuality and how I expressed that and seeing an article, um, that was talking about how to tell differences between if someone is like, a really book lesbian or if they're a Trans Masque person. [00:18:00] Um, and that really resonated with me. Um, I think probably everyone being in public knows how it sometimes feels like people are trying to analyse you and break down exactly what you are. And I don't know. It's like these small, unspoken cues that they're like, OK, well, that means you're in this box. You must be just a lesbian. And so I'm going to call you this. And like, I think, um, yeah, sort of like putting that on the main stage and having these [00:18:30] three sort of transmiss individuals that were not 100% sure you know exactly where they identified, but, um, yeah, sort of being in the eye of the eye of the public and how just like people are perceiving trans people, and yeah, sort of reflecting on that, but yeah, that's my page. Thank you. [00:19:00] Is anyone else keen? Oh, come on, Jack. Go on, Jack. Round of app. That's the question. Um, hi. My name's Jack. Um, I was Oh, well, look what he's done covering up my beautiful page. Um, I wasn't gonna talk because it's scary, but will's speech inspired me. Um, so this is my page. Um I was a classic and [00:19:30] history student once upon a time, and I did my, uh, honours thesis on and, well, I did my honours in the classical studies, and I did my honours thesis on her Feist, who was very much implied to be the lover of Alexander the Great, And he and Alexander used to compare themselves to Achilles and Patroclus. Uh, and to the love that the love between a Alexander and her Feist and they would compare to the love between Achilles and Petri that they saw from Homer Elliot. Um, and I have always looked to Achilles [00:20:00] and Patri. They're two of my favourite characters from his, uh, from legend from books. Um, and when I saw this, I was like, Oh, I absolutely must write about them. Um, I can't just not do that. Um, so this is a little excerpt from, um, uh I think it was a paper of some kind of magazine called hero. Um, and this particular section was just as it says, Uh, the A to Z. It was, um, just a list of people that are considered gay heroes for one reason or another, either because they themselves are gay or [00:20:30] queer in some way. Or just because the queer community has claimed them in some way as, like somebody to to look up to, um, Achilles and petroglyphs. Their love is never made explicit, Like the nature of their love is never made explicit in Homo, which is the very first, Uh, well, the the first existing, um, source we have on Achilles and Petro. Um, but I on my next page, I've I've put quite a few quotes from Homo. Uh, that shows that their love was very intense and almost [00:21:00] undeniably romantic. Um, the reason I chose to write about them in a in a trans, um, context is because, uh, for myself, um, realising I was Trans was a lot to do with seeing couples couples like Achilles and Patrick Alexander and Feist, um, and these other specifically male male couples from history and stuff, Um, and thinking that that should be me and [00:21:30] that I should be part of that, and and I should be relating to that more. Um, so I want to write about them for my page, because that was such a big part of me coming to the realisation that I was trans, Um, and because Achilles and petroglyphs have formed such a large part in particular in my own study and life in general, like I I've spent a lot of time, uh, doing classical studies, and I've moved away from that now, but, um, I work in healthcare now, but after doing the stuff and the, um, after looking through [00:22:00] the archives and everything, I was kind of like, Oh, maybe I'll do a master's someday. I, um it reignited my love for history and classics and whatnot. Um, but it was just an amazing day. Getting to spend that much time around other trans people. Um, and getting to look through the archives was really incredible. Not just because I am also a history classics nerd. But just because it was incredible to see so much, uh, trans history in the archives that we that I wouldn't know it had existed otherwise. Um, [00:22:30] but yeah, that's I think what I have to say. Thank you, Jack. Um, does anyone else feel like I'll go to you? All right, maybe V first. You you put your hand up first round of for V. Um, well, the weekend was very emotionally [00:23:00] draining for me. Um, it was wonderful. Like reflecting on it. But initially, um, so many emotions. So many things happening. So many realisations. So many. Like gender. Who? Um and this there was an article in devotion in 1996. I think it was, um and it was it's this big, like, three size magazine. It was huge. Um, and there was this, um, part [00:23:30] in it that had this, um, like, article about this person named John. Or we suppose that he was named John. Um, and it's John's journey. Um, and that's a picture of John. Um, and I was kind of reading through it. Um, and there were lots of it's kind of to me. I read like a poem. And it was kind of, um I guess his experiences realising his, um his gender identity and who he was. Um and I was quite spooky because I was like, Oh, [00:24:00] hello. Um, I also did these weird things as, like, a young person. And now I'm realising that maybe that was tied to, like, who? I who I am, And I knew that back then. Whereas I kind of had this, like, trans imposter syndrome in a way of, like, I'm not trans enough TM which is not a thing. But, you know, um, yeah, and so I wrote kind of like my response to different parts of it. This isn't the entire, [00:24:30] um, article. I just cut out bits that were kind of I felt like parallels to my life, I guess. Um, and the part that I love the most is the quote about, um when John says I finally decide that I'm ready to begin the physical transition, I am going through the bureaucratic process to get myself on hormone treatments. It's a lot of waiting for referrals and appointments. Although I've been waiting for 30 years, it's even harder now. [00:25:00] It's a bit like Christmas. The closer it is, the harder it is to be patient. And for me, that was like because, um I as it I guess it says in there I, like, have started that kind of process, and I'm realising just how bureaucratic it is. And it's like, Oh, I guess nothing's changed since the nineties. And probably nothing's changed, you know, since whenever And, um, yeah, it was like a big a big emotional thing for me, But, like, I love [00:25:30] it. And I feel really happy and proud that I got to read that. And yeah, thank you. Should I say this was also vi and the worm fem and the tomb? Because I think that's really cool. Alright, Um, I would say it. You can round of applause for our Hi. Oh, [00:26:00] So, um, unlike some other people, I did for two very different things. Um, because I have trouble with making up my mind about stuff, and it sort of just happened on the day. Um, so the first one, I took a lot of inspiration from some No, that I already had, but then finding some key photos in the archives. Um and one of them was about Billy Tipton. Who? Some of you who might know and some of you might not know. Um, but, well, he was a famous musician. Um, and after he passed away, um, he was outed [00:26:30] as Trans. Um, and it was a This photo is from a news article about him. Um, and then I'd drawn over the top is, um, doctor James Barry, who was a physician who, um, did a lot of great work in South Africa. Um, around, I don't know, but just like I won't go into that. But he was a really amazing doctor. Um, and there is not a lot known about whether he was, like, actually Trans or just trying to, like, make his way as a doctor in [00:27:00] sort of the patriarchy. But I've always sort of self ID with James Berry. Um, he was not the nicest person, but I sort of the story of him. I'm quite fascinated by, um and I've just sort of included some quotes and stuff about how these two are from our history. Um, and their stories are quite paralleled, and I just sort of, I don't know, felt sort of connected to them in that way. Um, and they were sort of lived a life. And that's sort of what I'm here for. And [00:27:30] then the next one, next one sort of is a bit about my life. Um, so the other two photos are from the archives, and they've just sort of drawn a lot. Um, so the first one, I unfortunately, cannot remember his name, but it was from a news article, um, talking about sort of some trans experiences. Um, and I just sort of was struck by how much it looked like My dad, um Who his here. So embarrassing. But, um uh, I've just sort of written little notes of it. Looks like my dad connected [00:28:00] to him and then my son. So I'm gonna cry. No, um, and then this other guy who sort of have an in joke with my family, which was, um, you blank like a man from the war, which was mostly was eat like a man from the war. Um, but I just sort of was like, this guy smiling in a sort of look like sort of army uniform or whatever. Um, and it just sort of really connected, Um, the the joy that I see with them and the smile of your trans, which is really awesome. Um oops. And then just some things, [00:28:30] um, which is sort of form who I am, and stuff that is like gender envy, which is sort of like a joke. But, um, things that I don't know sort of connects to me as a trans person and just like who I am. Um, yeah. I don't really know what else to say, but that's it. Thank you. Because I've seen maybe Louis [00:29:00] was keen clap for you. Oh, it go with your laptop. Um, should we look at your one? Oh, yeah. I can enjoy my my wife first. So, um, and study fashion in Messi? Um, I don't know. It is, um I've been learning a lot of things and having amazing fat to, like, guide me to [00:29:30] being, um and and because I was just, like, studying realise myself. I'm more trans feminine than just a nobody. And I just I see just that long process developing myself as a person. So I be adult and just I feel like become adult, just like every change though you just like, put yourself to like the [00:30:00] to be a the person we want. And I had all my friends around me just like keep telling me all the ghost and all the thing happening. And I was like, Oh, like that's cute and and I was like, Oh, I can be that as well So I just feel like that's why thinking about, uh, the events [00:30:30] I've been going to it's just like passing the knowledge from the other people. And I share the experience. And when I look at the oh magazine was so amazing, like all the graphic and the fashion and stuff, I was like, Oh, my God, like, how do you know this magazine? And everybody was like asking me on the instagram saying, What's this magazine for? I was like, As for the, um um, [00:31:00] the bit So you can outside, So you have to, like, go to events to so this thing. But that's really outside. I feel special and feeling welcome to this family thing. I just pass into the, um So, um, I was interested in Mika, who was a performer in the From [00:31:30] Like the eighties and into the two thousands. And and actually, um, Mika has been in the news like from today, because they've been involved in some, like, bribery thing with some assault victim and, like, I don't know, it's kind of dodgy, but that just shows how complicated history is. That's what That's what will told me. Um and yeah, but it was It was just really cool to see the, um, to see all of me. Um, like [00:32:00] lots of pamphlets of performances that they did and different, um, posters and and, um, yeah, it was it was because I'm also a performer. And so, like, being able to see someone who's queer and Maori and like, puts that at the front of the of what they do is really inspiring. And yeah, um yeah, and this this picture here it was like a it was, like from some promo thing. But it was just [00:32:30] like in the like me was, like in a river, and like, washing their hair and it was just really beautiful. So, um yeah, I don't think I have much more to say. No. Is there anyone else who'd like to speak jazz? Yeah. Come on. OK, This was a very split second decision. So [00:33:00] don't judge, um yeah, I I came to the archives and to this awesome workshop, and I was kind of looking through looking for non-binary people. I was really interested in the, like, earliest uses of the word queer. And then I stumbled across this article, and it was about intersex people. And I kind of fixated on it because it was written in the nineties, and I [00:33:30] was like, This is when I was in the womb, and this is when I was born, and this is when, like, my intersex body was developing. So despite, um, this issue being about trans people, I kind of wanted to write about this because I felt like I couldn't write about anything else. And I don't have much to say about my page because I wrote my thoughts down quite literally about it. Um, yeah, I just kind of wanted to bring in the inclusion of intersex [00:34:00] people into, um, the conversation about gender diversity, even though not all intersex people identify with being, um, gender diverse. Um, yeah. I don't know why that's that's about it. Oh, and I did the insect pri flag colours. So yeah. Thank you. Is there anyone else that we've missed? I feel like everyone's [00:34:30] who's talked has talked. Yeah, Last call. Alright, with that, I guess we'll wrap it up there, so thank you all so much for going. Thank you so much. All the participants for speaking, Um it's really lovely to be able to hear your thoughts even more in depth on. Um yeah. Thank you so much. Enjoy another drink, some food. And if you're Trans, there's free zines. If your sis you got to pay [00:35:00] with the answer.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089910
TITLE: Out in the City (2021)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Angele Toomey; Arrun Soma; Bridget Hughes; Chaz Harris; Craig Hutson; Des Smith; Dorianne Page; Dyl Jones; Gavin Hamilton; Grant Robertson; Iona Anderson; Jaime Hutton; James Malcolm; Jan Logie; Jared Pullar; Jelly O'Shea; John Jolliff; Karen Harris; Kim Wheeler; Lou Percy; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Mari North; Mary Barnett; Micah Geiringer; Mike Fairhurst; Morgan-Jean Butler; Prue Hyman; Stephen Clothier; T Peters; Tracey Bentall; Tyler Williams; Vivian Lyngdoh
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 2020s; Angele Toomey; Aotearoa New Zealand; Argentina; Arrun Soma; Auckland; Awaken Gathering (2021); Ayesha Verrall; Barbara Edmonds; Beauty and the Beast (film); Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Act 2021; Bisexual flag; Bridget Hughes; Buddhism; COVID-19 (coronavirus); COVID-19 fatigue; COVID-19 lockdown; Chaz Harris; Checkmate sauna (second site); Christianity; Christopher Isherwood; Community Law; Craig Hutson; Cross Agency Rainbow Network (CARN); Day of Silence; Department of Conservation; Department of Corrections; Des Smith; Dorianne Page; Dyl Jones; Evolve Wellington Youth Service; Faith Communities United in Love; Fuck Normal (t-shirt); Gavin Hamilton; Gender Minorities Aotearoa (GMA); Genderless Clothes Swap (Outerspaces); Glen Bennett; Grant Robertson; Green Party; HIV / AIDS; HIV / AIDS; HIV education; HIV stigma; HIV testing and prevention; Hawkes Bay; He Tangata (performance); Hikoi to Out in the City; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Howard Ashman; Human Rights Act (1993); Ian Hutson; InsideOUT Kōaro; Intersex Trust Aotearoa New Zealand (ITANZ); Intersex flag; Iona Anderson; Jacinda Ardern; Jaime Hutton; James Malcolm; Jan Logie; Jared Pullar; Jelly O'Shea; John Jolliff; Kapiti Youth Support; Karen Harris; Katherine Mansfield; Kim Wheeler; Lesbian Action for Visbility Aotearoa (LAVA); Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Lesbian and Gay Fair; Lou Percy; Lynette Hutson; Maiden Voyage (book); Manatū Hauora Ministry of Health; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Mari North; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Mary Barnett; Measles; Member of Parliament; Micah Geiringer; Michael Fowler Centre; Michel Foucault; Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI); Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment; Morgan-Jean Butler; Māori; NZAF Ā whina Centre; Naming New Zealand; National Schools Pride Week; National with Pride (New Zealand National Party); New Plymouth; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand Labour Party; New Zealand Young Nationals; Newtown School; OUTLine NZ; OWeek (university orientation); Out in the City (Wellington); Out in the Park (Wellington); Out in the Square (Wellington); Out in the carPark (Wellington); Out on the Shelves; Outerspaces (Wellington); Personal Protective Equipment (PPE); Pink Shirt Day; Pride Parade (Wellington); Problem Gambling Foundation; Promised Land (book); Prue Hyman; QUILTED BANANAS (Wellington Access Radio); Rainbow Greens - Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand; Rainbow Haven; Rainbow NZ Parliamentary Network; Rainbow Progress Pride flag; Rainbow Room; Rainbow Team Wellington; Rainbow Wellington; Raven Wild (book); STI; Salvation Army; Sappho; Scouts New Zealand; Shift hui; Spark; St Vincent de Paul Society (Wellington); Stephen Clothier; Sydney Mardi Gras; T Peters; The Archive is Alive (zine); Tracey Bentall; Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); Tyler Williams; Vivian Lyngdoh; Wayward Masquerade; Wellington; Wellington Cats Protection League; Wellington City Libraries; Wellington Indian Pride; Wellington International Pride Parade (WIPP); Wellington Pride Festival (2021); Wellington Sexual Health Service; Wellington Zine Fest; activism; addiction; adoption; aged care; alcohol; alcohol and drug abuse; allies; anxiety; archives; aromantic; asexual; asylum seeker; authentic self; autism; badges; bigotry; biphobia; birth certificate; bisexual; blessing; blood donation; body diversity; book selling; books; cats; chest binder; child poverty; church; climate change; conference; consent; conversion / reparative therapy; counselling; digital archive; digitisation; drugs; education; elder care; elder issues; empathy; employment; exclusion; faith; fear; filming; friends; fun; gambling; gay; gender expression; gender fluid; gender identity; genderqueer; government; hate; health; health care; homophobia; homosexual; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; hospitality; housing crisis; human rights; hīkoi; identity documents; inclusion; intersex; intersex visibility; intersexy; isolation; kickstarter. com; language; law; lawyer; legal rights; lesbian; library; manaakitanga; marriage; marriage equality; mental health; merchandise; migrants; name change; non-binary; online service; pansexual; people of colour; pivoting; policy; polysexual; pride dragon; pronouns; public servant; public service; publishing; queerphobia; racism; rainbow refugee; rangatahi; refugee; refugee quota; representation; resettlement; sad; safe space; salvationist; school curriculum; scouts; sex-on-site venues; sexual behaviour; smile; smiling; social networking; stigma; surgery; takatāpui; trans; transgender; transphobia; travel bubble; undetectable viral load; vaccination; venturer (Scouts); violence; visibility; volunteer; waiata; workshop; worship; youth; youth ball; youth group; youth work; zines
DATE: 27 March 2021
YEAR: 2021
LOCATION: Michael Fowler Centre, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Interviews with people at Out in the City, which was held on 27 March 2021 at the Michael Fowler Centre, Wellington. Founded in 1986, and originally called the Lesbian and Gay Fair, 2021 marked the 35th anniversary of the event.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So we're at the store, which stands for Intersex Trust a New Zealand, and we're at the Michael Fowler Centre for Out in the City. And this is the first time it's been in the Michael Fowler Centre. What? What is the The vibe, the the atmosphere Like, uh, I only moved back to Wellington a year ago, but my first week here was out in the park and out in the city has an amazing celebratory feeling because it's all contained. And you can really see the volume of people coming in [00:00:30] the was was amazing. It was It was a very, very full Yeah, we could see it coming across the waterfront from up here at the Harbour View lounge. And we got some great photos and great video of our intersex crew at the Crossing and money. Were you actually in the, um, no. I was up here on high view of te ara admiring and just so proud, Tearful, like, this is a historic day for I [00:01:00] the sex rights activism. And this is the first time that we've had a a collective group march here in Wellington ever. I'm proud. I'm deeply moved. Um, yeah, a huge range of emotions very, very difficult to say, but yeah, this is a historic day, Very important day. Um, as you can see, you know, we have our colours of yellow and purple. So this was developed [00:01:30] by a colleague in Australia, and this image has gone all around the world. So, you know, to have the purple and yellow and the pride march this morning was just extraordinary. So we've got an interesting dynamic with intersex human rights because sometimes on the ground, there's not that many of us that are out. And last year, man and I were here and, um, I did the I run off and I. I felt a bit lonely, to be honest, because I I had a big, beautiful flag but didn't have the posse. [00:02:00] So this year I did a shout out and I got a big bunch of, um, replies and there was 10 of us in total wearing these our new t-shirts, which are great. Um, and we made a bunch of signs and there was that, like, collective mass and joy and active L A which felt so joyful and amazing. Um, and it's a reminder I think that when we're so deep in this, sometimes we forget to look up and ask for help. Um, so that was a really beautiful experience of today. And [00:02:30] so is this the first time that the insect trust has, um, marched in either a or B? Um, actually, money probably knows more about this, but there's an amazing global history of intersex, um, engagement in different pride marches. Um, and I know that money was part of a really amazing Mardi Gras in Sydney. That was the first time the flag that had ever been So that was Mardi Gras five years ago. Maybe so that actual literal flag was the first intersex flag made. And we [00:03:00] carried it in that much. Yeah, so that's an amazing treasure for us to hold. And yeah, it's interesting when you think five years, there isn't a very long history. Um, and obviously there's been intersex, um, activists and advocates for much, much longer than that. Um, but our relationship of of being out but also fitting into the beautiful conglomerate that is the rainbow, um, is, you know, sometimes it's a journey, and not everyone who's intersex, um, relates [00:03:30] to being um, and and the rainbow community. Um, so, yeah, it's It's very important for us and that collective solidarity to be part of this movement and really great to be in the Pride parade today. And money's just put some signs out the front of the, um, the table. And I love this fuck normal sign that just says it, doesn't it? It does. Um, it's a bit controversial. Um, we got some t-shirts made, but only a few. And we were talking about the difference between, you know, protest [00:04:00] and and how we we are angry and we've got we've got something to say and there's passion in that's really motivating and great. And then there's also, um, I think the more like, family friendly one, which are like, intersex bodies, are beautiful and, you know, fix your hearts, not our parts. Um, So talking about consent we're talking about, um, you know, surgeries only, um, when people are able to articulate their consent for that and informed consent, talking about [00:04:30] engagement with under six people, um, so moving away from a medical model and into a social model that actually celebrates and, um lifts up bodily diversity as a natural variation. Yeah, and that's such a balancing act, isn't it Between, um, one being angry at some times, but then also pulling back at other times and advocating and doing activism in different ways? Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes we do forget [00:05:00] to and, um, I think that a lot of our natural states, um, are a lot more like we use humour when we get together. You know, we we love doing, um, playful creative communication. We talk about being into sexy as, like, you know, our power. You know, we're empowered, but we're also, um we're being playful and fun with it. And, you know, there's there's lots of stories like ancient stories of, um, you know, indigenous celebration of under six [00:05:30] bodies. And they were held very much in a place of esteem within society. So we're we're trying to reclaim that space. Um, and and, you know, we don't want to be talking about, um, Grim, you know, uh, medical interventions all the time. So it's really lovely when we can just get together and, um, and bring some of that fun into it. Yeah. So my name is Stephen. I'm the Children's and youth services coordinator for Wellington City libraries. And, um, the library has a store [00:06:00] here today just to promote our LGBT Q I plus collections and online resources give out badges, give out free books and just generally have some fun. It's very sparkly. It is very sparkly. We love cycles. Take take me through some of the badges. All right. Well, um, we have a whole range of really interesting LGBT Q I plus authors, um, on the badges many people enjoy collecting these, um, myself included. So we've got Christopher Isherwood. We've got Sao, we've got Michelle Foucault. We've got Catherine Mansfield. [00:06:30] We've got all kinds of interesting people in here. Um, we've also got, of course, the classic library pride badges with the library logo and various pride flags, intersex flag, bisexual flag, the progress flag, all kinds of cool stuff. So it must have actually taken quite a long time to to organise these badges. Yeah, but thankfully, it wasn't me who did it. It was Mary sitting behind us. Yes, And others. How did you go about selecting the people on the badges? [00:07:00] Uh, I didn't do the selecting. I believe Fiona did in previous years. And then some of my other colleagues at the library sort of spearheaded that and were looking for authors they knew were queer and had free images that we could download and put on badges. What are the most favourite badges that have been picked up? I think a lot of people have gone for the individual pride flags or the progress, Um, pride [00:07:30] badges so far, Um, I know that some people have been very keen on CFO. I know that I am. I always push the CFO. Badge whenever I whenever I see anybody. Yeah. And so what else is on the on the store? Well, um, we have some some sort of free giveaways. We've got plenty of free books to give away. Um, from our, uh, withdrawn collections. Um, we have various bits of information about our online services. So we we offer, um, a lot [00:08:00] of free services online. Anyone who's a member of the library from free movie and TV streaming through to eBooks and magazines, all kinds of stuff. And we explicitly collect, um, a lot of LGBT Q I plus material for our for our patrons. And we love to talk to them about it. So that's why we're here. It must have been quite a tricky year for you last year, with covid lockdowns and a lot of stuff going online. And, of course, the main Wellington Public Library closing. Um, how's that going? Yeah, [00:08:30] um, it certainly was a challenging year, Um, for a variety of reasons. But actually, um, in many ways, it offered us a whole bunch of opportunities, um, enabled us to really expand our sort of online presence. Um, sort of try some new things, reach out to new people, and, um, I think that as a general rule, we've actually come out of it really strong. A lot of people, um, I think really appreciated all kinds of stuff we did during lockdown. Um, you know, our events for families and live streaming and all that kind of stuff, So, yeah, it's been challenging, but we're rising like Phoenix from the ashes, I'd say. And [00:09:00] and why is it important, uh, for the library to be here today? Well, we just, um we we we do think it's really important to promote the libraries as some safe spaces for, um, LGBT people, particularly for LGBT Q I plus youth. And, um, we want it to be more widely known that, um you know, we actively support the community. We actively collect material that is relevant to to the community. And, um, we just want to make that known as wide as possible. Yeah. So this is gender minorities [00:09:30] out here. Oh, we are a charity run by trans and queer people for trans people. We do a lot of programmes specifically with youth and just like a lot of general sort of stuff, you know, we have, like, a we have, like, binder programmes and some coun and some directions to counselling and all this kind of thing. And yeah, we just we just run it much like you get Vinny or Salvation Army type of thing. All our all our cash goes straight to the actual charity. Can you describe, um, the store today? Yeah. It's just all second [00:10:00] hand stuff from the community. A lot of people just hand over their stuff. I've handed us stuff over before, cos you know, I lost 30 klos So some of my older clothes don't fit me as you can imagine. So yeah, we just it is very much like, you know, Saint Vincent de Paul's or something like that. Yeah, Yeah. And yeah, we have, like, T-shirts like fresh t-shirts for 20 bucks and then all the other stuff is five so real cheap. So can you describe some of the other things that are on the store today? So I believe this other stuff is just other stuff to do. [00:10:30] Like, I believe that's part of the binder programme, if you know, like how binders and all that kind of thing works. Yeah, So we've got a binder programme and then we've got, like, coffee mugs, other merchandise, and yeah, I think those two are just informational. Whereas I'm like doing the selling. I work for E Wellington Youth Service, which is a health and well being service for young people. Um, part of our role and cap you support and also [00:11:00] the emerging support service for young people in is to promote measles immunisation for young people between the ages of 15 and 30. We found that a lot of these young people have not had measles is susceptible to the disease, and that's led to outbreaks which is really so unnecessary as It's a preventable disease. It's an excellent vaccine. It's been used for years, very few side effects, and [00:11:30] we just want young people to get out there and get it. It's far more contagious than Covid COVID-19 we're all afraid of. But measles is actually a bigger threat in our community. And in fact, in 2019, New Zealand exported a nice batch of measles to Samoa and that killed a number of people. So we're really keen to get this out here. So did something happen, say, 15 years ago that stopped people getting immunised? Um, there are a few things. There was [00:12:00] a piece of really poor research by an individual that has since been discredited up, down and sideways. Um, it linked autism to measles, mumps and rubella immunisation, which has been proven to be absolutely false. But it scared a lot of people, and I can certainly understand that, you know, as a parent, you take your child in and you want them to have the safest thing possible. The other thing is, is the record keeping in New Zealand was really [00:12:30] poor, and we don't have good records for young people of their immunisation so kids might not know if they've missed it. So it's super important. Young people started having their immunizations put on the national immunisation Registry in 2005, so we can identify those young people. But this whole cohort between 15 and 30 just may not know. So it's so important that we get this out there, you mentioned covid. And, um, it [00:13:00] was, you know, it's obviously been a huge thing in the last year. How has covid affected evolved services? Um, well, certainly at Evolve and at KYS, um, we actually went into lockdown with everyone else, but we continued seeing our clients. We went to some different ways of visiting with their clients. We were on zoom with some consultations, but we did, um, full P PE and did swabbing for people people as they need to continue [00:13:30] with their contraception and, um, well, person care. So and at KYS, we have a huge car park. So we saw so many people in our car park and our P PE and did all the swabbing. And often we could do scripts on, um with a phone consultation or a zoom consultation. So very similar to evolve, so evolve and cover to you. Support. What kind of age group are you working with? We start at 10 until, um, young people turn 25. Are you the same? We are the same [00:14:00] at Evolve. Yes. Um, but our immunisation service for the measles, mumps and rubella programme extends to 30. Yeah. So how do you think young people coped with the that first major lockdown? I think there was a lot of anxiety. Um, really, A lot of young people, um, or almost like in some ways, for people that suffered anxiety. The lockdown was good because they were home in a secure environment. And it was after lockdown that we saw more anxiety [00:14:30] to have to go back out into the world. So that was quite a huge thing for us. I think. The other thing For a lot of young people, there was uncertainty around their jobs and their education. You know, so many of the young people that we see are in frankly, poorly paid minimum wage or those sort of shut down. And and they just number one. They didn't know when they were going to have work, or, um, if they were going to have work and what the future was. And also for those who are in [00:15:00] education, that was a real challenge as well. And why is it important to be here today? It's really important for us because we know there's a huge group of young people that missed out on having their measles months and rubella immunisation, and we know it's eight times more contagious than Covid. So we really need to get that message out. We don't want another big epidemic like we had in 2019, so we're really trying to do the around this and get young people. It's such an easy vaccine. It's so [00:15:30] safe, and we're happy to do clinics evolve or ks any time. We're also going to be out in the community doing pop up clinics. Wellington City libraries has been amazing, and they're going to allow us to hold clinics in some of their branch libraries. Johnsonville Kilburn Um, and we're hoping some of the downtown libraries as well um, we're hoping that we'll be doing some of those during the school holidays, Um, and also on some weekends [00:16:00] as well. And you know where people are? We're happy to go, and that's a totally free vaccine. The only thing is you do have to, like, chat away to us for about 20 minutes afterwards. That's the only catch, sometimes for people. So just plan it a little bit. So we are in having as I was saying, We are basically reach out to the members of the community that are refugees, asylum seekers or immigrants. We try to help them out with the resettlement process as well, to show [00:16:30] them that there is a space for them to come to us if they need anything from legal assistance or counselling or whatever we can help them out with, Um, at this stage, we're trying to reach out to the members. We're trying to get to know their problems, their issues, so that we can have a better assessment of what they need so that we can sort out what we can give them. So where did Rainbow haven come from? How did it start? Oh, we start from we are part of [00:17:00] the community of the community. We are also we are refugees and we are part of the rainbow community and we find an A really big uh, gap in the in the process? Yes. In the resettlement process. Just we born, uh, the last year here in Wellington. And we are planning also to stay in other parts of New Zealand, too. Yeah. What are the main issues facing refugees or immigrants coming to New Zealand today? Uh, there are [00:17:30] and a lack of information about us. There are no many assistance focus in our community. And I think this is this is really one big issue, because we are, We have, uh we recognise that there are many, uh, you know, problems, health problems. And there are also community problems. You, you know, for contact with the community to be to feel, uh, integrate with the New Zealand community. And I think this is this is the fierce [00:18:00] issues that we we have to need to solve it. Yeah, so so are there many, um, rainbow refugees coming to New Zealand? Yeah, that are especially based here in Wellington. And we also looking for maybe find other places that also, uh, have, uh, refugees, Uh, and also migrants that are around New Zealand to many. And we are trying to represent also the migrants, [00:18:30] so people are actually coming to New Zealand as refugees because of persecution because of their sexuality agenda. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There are many reasons about why New Zealand has this programme with the refugees, especially some people come just for not for not be accepted in this country. But there are also violence reasons. But there are also family [00:19:00] reasons that have problems, you know, into the families. And we are so proud to be part of New Zealand because New Zealand accept many have really tolerance policies with all of rainbow communities. I'm not aware of the exact number, but definitely there are a lot of people that come from not only South America, like we all come from, but other countries around the globe that they are. They [00:19:30] don't accept much their conditions, their gender identification and they have to seek asylum in other countries and they arrive to New Zealand for the resettlement process. Um, so yes, definitely there are several people that for our community that come with those problems, and here we are to give them a space for them to grow and thrive in A and New Zealand. As he was saying, how does it feel today personally, to to be in such a large kind of rainbow gathering? Oh, it feels amazing. [00:20:00] It feels amazing. We both the three of us, We come from South America. I personally come from Argentina, where the rainbow community is massive. There's so many, uh, sim, similar events. And ever since I got out from Argentina, I haven't been able to find that. And in Wellington, this is definitely a massive representation of all the different colours, shapes and people from all walks of life. And to me personally, that means the world because we are not home, [00:20:30] we're in somewhere in another country. But all these events and all these activities and all these organisations, they kind of make it feel more like home. So we're not We don't feel so alone within our own community. I'm Tiana. I'm a general lawyer at community law. Um, where community law is here to promote our services and and let people know that they would be welcome and, uh, would love to see them at one of our dropping sessions. So we have, um, dropping sessions for [00:21:00] free legal advice at both, um, our, uh, Dickson Street office and lower office as well. And then there's a few outreach clinics, including one, in conjunction with gender minorities. And yeah, so we're we're able to give legal advice about, um, there's a chapter in our book about gender and sexuality and kind of things about changing your name or any sort of legal issues you encounter with, um, with with the Global pandemic still happening and we're a year [00:21:30] into it now has has the have the questions that people have been coming to Have they changed in terms of what advice they they're seeking? Uh, so I'm personally pretty new to community law. But what I've heard is that, uh, we've definitely had an increase in employment cases, obviously, with with all the covid stuff, um, and we've been able to offer a service, a remote service for people who aren't able to come into the office if they're self isolating or immunocompromised or for whatever reason, they are unable [00:22:00] to access our services. They can go online and fill out a sheet to access that remotely. So that's probably the biggest change since covid. And it's wonderful today. I'm just thinking of covid. I mean This is probably one of the only places in the world where we can have thousands of people gathering without masks or social distancing. Yeah, absolutely. We're really lucky. It's a really special event. Yeah. Can you describe the atmosphere from today? Um, it's all pretty bubbly. Everyone's really happy. And, uh, I think I'm just really happy to be here. [00:22:30] Is this the first, uh, out in the park, out in the square, out in the city? You You've been to, uh yeah, I'm pretty fresh to Wellington, but, um, obviously being part of proud events in Auckland as well. Um, but yeah, this is the first time I've been with community law at this event, so I'm really proud to be here. Hi, I'm Angeli Toomey. I'm chair of Rainbow Wellington. And this is my colleague. I'm Mike Fairhurst. I'm the membership secretary of Rainbow Wellington. And our organisation provides social events and networking [00:23:00] for rainbow community members as well as campaigning on issues that are important to us. So what are the important issues for rainbow Wellington? Uh, so I'm particularly interested in the banning conversion therapy issue, uh, and reducing the stand down time for men to donate, um, blood. Yeah. Um, and other things that we're looking at supporting this year are changes to Human Rights Act to improve rights protections for trans people as well as, uh, changes [00:23:30] to adoption and surrogacy law. Um, there there's actually a plethora of things that are happening over the next couple of years from that sort of political angle. So we're really keen to make sure that rainbow voices are heard and represented and that, you know, our needs are met through, um, law change. So why is it important for the community to have groups like Rainbow Wellington? Um, I guess that because we are from the community, for the community and about the community, we can create [00:24:00] platforms for voices to be heard. Um, and we don't necessarily have, um, the manner to speak on all of the issues. But I think we can contribute together, um, and amplify each other's voices because if we don't represent ourselves, No-one is going to do that for us. Um, we need to, you know, build allies and build champions and wider community. But really, we have to tell our stories and platform our stories, and I guess that's what groups like Rainbow, Wellington and Inside Out and GMA and [00:24:30] all of the other really awesome groups in our community. You know, we're all kind of in this together working together. Can you describe your membership in terms of, like, demographics age and and and where they're from? Um so classically, we've had an older membership. Um, that had a lot to do with the, uh, homosexual law reform in the past. Um, and that's our kind of solid base. Um, but we're slowly moving into the younger and more diverse audience. [00:25:00] Yeah, and what are the benefits from somebody joining room? Wellington? Um, you get to come to all of our social events and networking activities. Um, we reach out to members for their views and opinions, and we use that to create strategy for our campaigns. Um, we do some member only activities as well and member discounts, and I think in addition to all of those things, it's about really connecting with the community and providing providing a collective voice [00:25:30] and being part of that wave and and volume of of storytelling and and raising our voices. So it's sort of being part of something that's bigger than just yourself and contributing to, like, a movement for change. Uh, and the money from our memberships, uh, goes directly back into our grant scheme as well, which help pay for things like the youth ball and this amazing event here in the centre. So did you go to the youth ball? I did, and I'm a bit old, but, uh, I saw it on instagram and it looked amazing [00:26:00] and I was very jealous. I I'm thinking we need to have a post youth ball for those of us who are outside of the youth demographic these days. So my name's Morgan. I work for Problem Gambling Foundation. I'm a health promoter. We have a service called PGF Map Maya and Asian Family Services. So MauA works for like, uh, Pacifica and Asian Family Services works with the Asian communities. We have free counselling on all the services. We also do community stores like this. [00:26:30] Um, we have free pins, free pop sockets and things like that. So why is it important to be here today? Well, the crossover from addictions with alcohol and drugs with the rainbow community is very clear. Um, but there is very little research when it comes to gambling with the rainbow community. So I made a decision that actually this is probably a community that needs that support. So having stores like this is important to have those first sight having those conversations. No one's talking about it the moment, and I think it's really important that we need to be [00:27:00] talking about this. You say that the connections are very clear for, say, alcohol and smoking. Can you just unpack that a wee bit for me? Yes. So we already know that our queer community has issue with drugs and alcohol, and all the bars that we have that are for us have poker machines in them. So the of it's easy to assume that we're going to be gambling if we're also drinking and doing drugs. So but again, there's no research. There's no support being put into this money to actually ask us these questions and [00:27:30] ask, Um, service services aren't asking if these queer communities are having these issues. So do you offer specific, uh, rainbow programmes? Not at the moment. So I am only here because I'm part of the rainbow community, so I've kind of made that leap and just with our organisations support said, Hey, yes, you can attend this. Um, I can work with the rainbow community because I've worked with the rainbow community before, but we don't specialise in rainbow support. Yeah, yet. And what What has the reaction been by? From from people [00:28:00] coming past? They're actually been pretty amazing. A lot of them are like, This is amazing work. You should be doing this more. Wow. I didn't even know you guys existed. Um, so that's been really good to hear. Um, we have had a lot of people say yes, I do know someone who's gambled. Yes, I was a gambler. Um, and again, a lot of them were poki gamblers, which is the harm that we are most fixated on at PGF. So, Yeah, I'm thinking there are thousands of people here today. Can you describe what the atmosphere is like? It is a lot. Um, it's very good. I've seen a lot of kids, which I really love. Um, there's [00:28:30] a lot of young people, which again I love. Um, it's just yeah, supportive people asking lots of questions, wearing what they want to see dressing as they want. Um, yeah, it's very hectic, but good. Yeah. So I'm part of the cross agency network, otherwise known as Carn, and we're basically trying to make government a more inclusive and better place to work for our rainbow and for those that use government services. So we're volunteer members from across [00:29:00] all the public service sector government departments, and we come together once a month and have meetings where we share resources and information and try to progress the voice and visibility of our rainbow in the government sector. Can you give me an example of some of the agencies that are involved? Well, right here today we have at this table a O, which is corrections. The Ministry of Health in Stats New Zealand MB is [00:29:30] also here in the department of but so it's basically all the different public service sector agencies are involved. What are the origins of the network? So we started in 2017 and just a band of us who were in our own agencies and started our own internal Rainbow networks decided that it would be really good to share information and help other rainbow networks get started in another agencies. So it was a very sort of organic, natural start. And now we've grown [00:30:00] to have quite a few members. And we just actually held a conference in the Parliament buildings over the last two days, which we had representations from the seas across the government sector, as well as our MPs and members of our community for two days of a. Can you tell me some of the achievements that the network has been involved in? Um, well, I would say holding two conferences. So our first one in 2018 and one, as I said, that's just happened. We're also being [00:30:30] involved in pride events. Uh, part of our network has developed the pamphlet and and some documentation on including pronouns and our and We Linked in With The, which is the Public Service Sector Department. On that, we've also done some work around transgender policy, so transitioning at work. And so those are some of the documents that we share and work on, and different agencies have developed. What are some of the biggest issues [00:31:00] facing rainbow communities at the moment? That's a big question, and I think it's difficult for one voice to answer that because as we are so many different communities, we have so many different needs and areas of concern. But I would say some of the biggest ones are our safety. Still, that's still an issue for us. There's still a lot of homophobia transphobia, biphobia, just general queer phobia out there and how [00:31:30] we combat that to actually be able to just be our authentic Selves without feeling that we're going to be discriminated against, whether that's as small as a micro aggression or outward violence, and that happens in the streets, it still unfortunately happens in the workplace, in the homes in our schools, so that one of the biggest ones, I would say that I'm really working towards, but something that just came up even at our conference yesterday as we had a panel on aged care and elderly, and what came up there [00:32:00] was, How are we looking after our elderly rainbow? They're being pushed back in the closet, you know, staff that are working in the aged care homes really aren't trained to be, you know, aware of some of the nuances and some of the care, and so a number of them are being pushed back in the closet and are unable to be their authentic Selves after years of living that way openly. So that's going to be another big task for car. We're going to look at how we can actually progress that through the training [00:32:30] of staff that are working in aged care facilities, but also through departments like MB, which is responsible for that area. And just finally, can you describe the feeling that there is today here? Oh, it's a wonderful vibe. I started by joining with the that Marched over Here and you know, Wellington is really turning it on for us. It's a beautiful, sunny day. I myself, I'm from Tamaki Moko. So I'm always happy to land in Wellington on a sunny day. But it's colourful. It's vibrant. [00:33:00] The diversity here is outstanding. I'm looking at a brilliant age range and, um, expression of people. And, of course, as at any rainbow event, colour, colour, colour, smiles, smiles, smiles and lots of wonderful hugs, Um, we catch protection, and we're here to support gay pride and the whole weekend, and also to support the the shelter that we run up in Brooklyn. Uh, we we we home homeless cats, Um, as [00:33:30] a gay trans man myself, who are volunteers for the Cats Protection League. Um, I'm here to help show everyone that actually, we're really inclusive as well, and we want to support our community. Can you describe what the crowd has been like today? Um, they've been really supportive. They've been coming in. There've been lots of people who have come and told us that actually, they have adopted cats from us and that they're looking to adopt cats from us. And it's been a really wholesome vibe. Really. It's been the colour, the noise, the positivity. It's just been amazing. Is this the first [00:34:00] time you've been to an out in the park or in this case, out in the city? No, no, this will be about third or fourth time. Yeah, I go to, like, every queer event there can be. Everyone here is, you know, really welcoming. And you just feel like you can come in and actually just be yourself and express yourself in the way that you wish without the stigma from like the outside world. And yeah, everyone here is just so nice. And the vibe is just immaculate to be honest. Can you describe, uh, what's on your store? So [00:34:30] we've got homemade jam. We've got knitted mice and Beanies and Christmas cards. Uh, earrings that. I mean, all of these things have been done by our volunteers and calendars. You name it, it's there. Why do Why do you think it's important to actually be here today? Um, I think, uh, a lot of queer folk across New Zealand and the world have been facing a lot of stigma, not just recently, but, you know, for decades and decades. And I think it's really important that not only are queer organisations here to support them, um, but [00:35:00] also other organisations who don't base themselves on their queer identity to support us as well. Um, so, yeah, it's really good that we have people like a NZ like the cat Protection League, like, you know, small businesses coming up and actually saying, you know what? We're support of this community, but it doesn't just have to be queer People that attend these events. It can be supporting people as well. Absolutely. I think, um, here to support here to be part of it here to share and to learn um because we our volunteers, are everyone and everything, and we value [00:35:30] that enormously. We wouldn't be cats protection without it. So my name is Craig. Um, the store we've got here is faith communities united in love. Um, we're kind of a collective of a number of the faith communities within the Wellington region. Um, we've got N in Buddhism. Um, the so, um, international centre, Um, Wellington based, um and then the rest of them, um, are a collection of, um, affirming, [00:36:00] um, Christian churches and ones that are kind of, um, on a journey, um, to becoming inclusive, to challenge what they need to within, um, some aspects of Christianity, which, um, haven't been helpful to LGBTI Q communities. It's a nice way of phrasing it to to be on a journey, isn't it? I think that because obviously, things can change, can't they? And I think, um, definitely, um, for me, I'm, um, had an [00:36:30] upbringing within the Salvation Army. Um, and in the last, um, probably like, six or seven years. That's been a journey for myself coming out as a gay man. Um, and having to navigate, um, faith. Um, that continues to be an important part of of who you are and how you you see the world. Um, and I think in terms of, like, journey, um, it it feels like there has been points. Um, where I'm amazed myself at, like, how much has changed. Last night, we, um, had [00:37:00] the opening of the awaken conference at the parliament buildings. And, um, you think back to the 1986 homosexual law reform bill, Um, where the Salvation Army was with this, um, you know the petition. I'm kind of fronting the position. The petition. Um, and last night, um, I had a photo in the rainbow room with two of my parents. Um, both salvation. Um, my father's, um, Ian Hudson, who's the social [00:37:30] policy and parliamentary unit director, And my mom's the national director of all the addictions programmes. And so, um, like, he would have thought two salvation are there with their gay son in the Rainbow Room. And And did you talk to them about that? Because I imagine that would have been quite a massive journey for them as well. Um, it's actually really interesting because, um, I guess you know, like some of the ways that we can absorb a lot of the negativity that comes towards [00:38:00] rainbow communities. Um, that can affect our sense of self and our sense of being able to show love to ourselves and accept ourselves. Um, it was almost the case for me where, um, I had more issues around that sort of stuff than they ended up having. And, um, my father, actually, um, pre knowing, um that I was gay, um, had done little sort of, I guess, um, challenging [00:38:30] pieces within a lot of the Salvation Army and Christian community. Um, just articles, you know, like, let's talk about this. Um, this is what's happening. And so I think when I came out to them, um, my mom actually said at one point, like, I think you've got more of a problem with it than we do, and I and I suppose it's another aspect of, um just that whole journeying. Um, I actually have a friend who, um, was one of the first [00:39:00] people I connected with when I was in those initial stages of of coming to terms with, um this is who I am. And, um, what does that all mean? And where do I fit. And, um, he, um, is actually now the MP for new Plymouth. Glenn Bennett. Um, his parents are Salvation Army, um, or salvation. And for them, it was interesting, because I go to the same church as they do, [00:39:30] and they I think, um, it's been a journey for them. Um, but, um, it must have been several weeks ago. Um, he was married. Uh, Glenn Bennett was married in parliament to his husband. First ever same sex marriage in that building. His parents who came from a very, um I don't know if I want to say unaired, but just kind of an ignorant space. Um, and they they have really worked on it, and they actually took part in the official [00:40:00] bits of the ceremony. And it's that same thing, like, Oh, you know, just the strides in these last 10 years or so it is. It has been amazing to witness, and today is amazing to witness the the kind of youth here, the thousands of people here, Can you, um, give me a sense of, uh, the people are coming today. Um, so it it is a real mix. Um, we have people that, um I guess have come from church backgrounds, [00:40:30] and they're not so connected to that anymore. Or or faith backgrounds. Um, for some of them, it's maybe, um, a sense of, um yeah, bits of it still being important. Um, for some of them, it's just a little bit of a beacon to knowing. Oh, there are pockets. Um, within these faith groups that, um, are a reforming except you exactly as you are. Um, and particularly with, I think a lot of, um, things that say within America, [00:41:00] we've got, um I guess that part of Christianity that is very rigid. Um, a lot of it doesn't even seem to adhere to what you would say. True Christianity was, um and so it's nice for them to see, um, not only, um, an alternative side of that, um, but also just different faiths That kind of can sit alongside each other. And there's not this whole like you're wrong. Um, we're right. Um, [00:41:30] yeah, it's just a just a big mix. And sometimes it's just people that, um appreciate, um, the little, um, interactive bits we have. We're offering blessings that they can just take, um, with them just a little positive message. We've got a, um, little bowl here with some rocks around it where people can take a moment just to ponder any, um, struggles or troubles that they've got at the moment. And, um, just have a moment that they can release it into this bowl full of water. [00:42:00] Um, and leave it, leave it with us. So, um yeah, and just finally, just going back to the Awaken Conference last night. Can you describe the feeling of actually being in parliament with your parents? How was that? Um, I think in my mind I go back to these points where I, you know, I had this journey where I had, um, quite a dark place. [00:42:30] It was like the I don't see, like, the way out from this. Um and yeah, this this person that, you know, just saying the word gay. Like, I remember these points that, um, trying to vocalise That was a real hard job. Um, and then even sort of just that, Like beyond, um, your sexuality, Like Like, who are you, like, who are you and, um, to hit the stage? Um, last night, with this huge [00:43:00] group of um, LGBTI, Q Christians, um, allies, all from a number of denomination. Um, and not only my parents there. There was actually some quite high up stakeholders within the Salvation Army. Um, within the, uh I think it was social ethics and morals. Um, council. Um, we had a representative from the Maori Ministries, um, group and just sort of thinking like, here we are in parliament. Um, [00:43:30] and I'm just completely relaxed, um, feel right at home. Um, all my different, I guess. Like people. You know, um, all the people that are important to me of the year, Um and it's Yeah, it's just sort of these moments where you've gone from feeling like the world has been a really hostile place that you don't fit in to the sort of multicoloured spot where it's like, you're you and you belong. And it's not a case of fitting in you. You belong as you are. [00:44:00] So, um yeah, just sort of. There's, like, liberation a sense of peace, Like, kind of just like love. Um support, um, and coming from that year, that I, I suppose what You know, they often call it the closet anxiety. You know, to a spot where you actually felt like Like, this is what the world is really supposed to be like. Um, it was just, um it was a real high life. [00:44:30] Yeah. So I I'm Jamie. We're here with scouts. New Zealand. Um, so scouts is a youth organisation. Um, it's the largest, um, global youth movement. Um, in the world, Uh, and yeah. So purpose of scouts is empowering young people through adventurous activities to lead lives that make a positive difference. That's kind of what we do. Um, we're here today making catapults, spraying people's hair with fun colours, pony nails, and generally celebrating our diverse communities. Yeah. So how long has, um, scouts [00:45:00] had a kind of AAA rainbow, um, policy or or been really proactive in the kind of rainbow communities? Really proactive. I'm trying to think it's been a fair while, actually, New Zealand scouts, um, I can't speak for overseas. Uh, New Zealand scouts has been We've never had any particular policies, you know, saying no, no one's allowed. Um, but we've been really proactive about it, especially over the past sort of 10 years, making sure that we make it a very inclusive space. Yeah, because you've been out in the park a number of times now. And can you describe what the feeling is [00:45:30] like, um, from those events? Oh, it's always fantastic. You get to hang out with so many cool people they will come past. Um, yeah, it's always, I mean, for for us. There's a lot of different reasons for part of its visibility as well. Cos scouts internationally has a different reputation at times, Um, but it's such a cool vibe hanging out with everyone um, getting to, I think, make sure that our young people in our movement know that they're welcome and know that they're accepted, um, within our movement as well. Um, as well as letting other people know that scouting is a safe place and that they're welcome regardless. [00:46:00] So on a day to day basis, how how is that done within the scouts? So obviously every scout group is different. Um, but as a general role, especially in our older sections, we make a really intentional purpose. So, like I'm a venture leader, Um, and one of the things that I do is I, um, work with, um, the venturing spaces, especially in low low north island. Um, and we run training courses and stuff, and part of that is making sure that we we work with young people on diversity inclusion talking [00:46:30] to them about how to, you know, treat her with respect. Um, we've made sure that all of our branding is gender neutral. Um, we've made sure that our safe from harm training is really, um, valuing a variety of different issues, not just, um, you know, standard things. Um, we've sort of really diversified a lot of that training recently. Yeah, um, I don't know. I I'm busy watching what's happening here, and I'm not thinking about how her words properly, actually, can you describe what's happening? So what is currently happening in front of me is there are a few people [00:47:00] with some hairspray cans of varying colours making rainbows happen in here, and it is great, but we're also having a little bit choking happening because there's the spray. Can you describe, um, the the people are here today because it's it's such, uh, this is the first time it's actually been in the Michael Fowler Centre. Yeah, it's It's interesting being in the Michael Centre in Mountain Park. Um, there are less puppies, which makes me sad. Um, but there's just so many people and so many different people. So many young people, which is so good to see, um, but also so people of different [00:47:30] generations, which is really, really nice. Um, yeah. I always love coming out. Um, making time to see everyone. And it's probably one of the only places in the world where we can actually do this. Absolutely. Yeah, it's probably We had a, um The other weekend we had there was a small event happening, but it was the largest scouting event event happening in the world because everyone else has all their things cancelled. So, yeah, we were the largest scouting event in the world the other weekend, simply by nature of living in New Zealand. [00:48:00] So how has, um, how has covid affected? Um, the scouts in New Zealand. Oh, God. Hugely. Um, so during covid, um, scouts had to obviously, like everyone pivot a fair bit to an online strategy. Um, so we pivoted to a thing called skating from home. Um, and the focus of that was around connection community and continuity. So making sure that the young people in scouting felt connected to their communities. Um, were still doing things. Still had that continuity of going to scouts every week, even though [00:48:30] it was virtually, um, we also released. We released, um, some sc from home programmes. So every week, throughout lockdown and we've done it again like when Auckland's gone back into lockdown, we've released, um Programmes, um, across our three programme areas. So adventure, personal and community, um, and activities that young people can do. And during lockdown, we released those to the general public as well. So anyone who wanted to could access those activities that they could do at home, um, to do some cool stuff. So we had, like, kids going camping at home, building blanket pots, cooking stuff. Um, learning about diversity and inclusion was a couple [00:49:00] of the different ones we did. Um, yeah, a whole bunch of different activities. Um, throughout lockdown, and we got these really cool videos coming in from all these different kids doing things at home, having their Skype meetings and then having scavenger hunts and building all sorts. It was really cool. Yeah. So, um, my name's neo. I use he or they pronouns, and I am working at the inside out stall today. Can you describe what's on the table? Um Yep. So we have free stickers, Um, that are, say, inclusive schools together, Um, with [00:49:30] all different pride flags on them. We have bookmarks, um, with out on the shelves. Bookmarks. We have resources for parents that have a little campaign and pictures and pretty colours on them. Um, we have some crocheted, uh, jewellery. And And you've also got some t-shirts. Yeah. Yes, we do. We are giving away free pink shirt day t-shirts. And then we have day of Silence, T-shirts and then t-shirts that say challenge homophobia, biphobia and transphobia on them as well as some tote bags. [00:50:00] So we have lots of stuff. And can you describe the amount of people here today? Because it's huge, isn't it? There's so many I can't give you an accurate number, but there has to be, like, at least a couple of 100 thousands. Really? Wow, you're probably right. To be honest, it's a little bit different than usual, but like everyone seems really happy to be here. The vibes are immaculate. Um, people seem really excited. I've had multiple people come over to the stall and say that, like, this is their first pride, and they're so happy to be here. So I think it's just a really positive [00:50:30] environment today. So can you remember your first pride? Oh, yeah, I think I can. Yeah. It was so exciting. Like everything was so colourful and new and just it was amazing. And so when was that? Um I think that would have been 2016 or 2017. And did you march in the today? Yes, I did. Can you tell me about that? Because it had such a a large youth presence, didn't it? It really? Yeah, I think, um, it's just there's so many youth and people, um, coming along because [00:51:00] I think it's very community based, as opposed to, like, the Pride parade, which is a lot of corporate people involved. Um, so it's like run by community members. Um, and it's there's community members in it. I think the most like there are groups in it that walk in it like there's an insect group. There was a Japanese drumming group. Um, but I think it's just it's just community members and people who support us and I actually marched. My mother came along today with me, so it's really nice. Was that the first time? Ah, yeah. She hasn't come to pry with [00:51:30] me before. She loved it. She was so happy to be here and support me. And I'm just She's great. It was so nice to have, like, my here looking ahead for the rest of the year. What? What? What has inside out got planned? Um, I think we we have, uh we're having our out on the shelves campaign. Um, bigger and better. Um, bigger and brighter. Um, we have schools Pride Week, which started last year, which is continuing again this year. Um, we have [00:52:00] coming up in April. Um, which is gonna be a lot of fun, and a lot of I'm sure everyone will enjoy it so much. Um, and then just the usual stuff. Like, I've I ate some workshops for inside out. So, um, just those are always going on, and, yeah, lots of good stuff. What's it like being involved with, uh, inside out? It's so good. Like, um, I. I originally started volunteering because I wanted to help the way that, like inside [00:52:30] out. It helped me. So, like, um, being able to help youth the same way that I guess I was helped is just amazing. It's a treasure. So I'm Lou Percy. I'm the coordinator for Outer Spaces, which is LGBT Q plus Youth Charity. We're here Fundraising. We're here, including people. We're here giving you the space to hang out and just be themselves at what is one of the best festivals [00:53:00] I'd say in New Zealand, if not the world, Can you describe your store and also the space that we're in now? So our store, we have our naming New Zealand cohorts who are selling baked goods to raise funds for gender queer, non diverse people to change their naming documents and then the outer spaces. We have pride pronoun, Prins, pride flags. We have some community art that we got from our kids that we work with for schools out and we're fundraising [00:53:30] to keep those programmes going. And then we've also got our youth space where we've got badge making name, pin making colouring, bead making. We've got a we're starting a new project with our genderless wardrobe, which is basically if a gender um questioning youth doesn't have access to their own money or a different wardrobe that they can come in and choose some pieces and not have to pay for it. [00:54:00] This is a very busy space, Um, and it's probably I've been to a number of pride events over the years, and this has got such a youth, youth, focus and a lot of youth about that. Yeah, I'm I'm very much of the opinion that youth or not you that pride is should not only be for our, but also led by our and making sure that they feel included as much as somebody over 30 especially when it's especially when they're questioning their identity somewhere. That they can [00:54:30] kind of explore that without being judged is something I feel really strongly about. This is also the first time that it's been held at the Michael Fowler Centre. Can you tell me, um, what's the venue like? I think the venue. I'm actually preferring it out in the park. I think it's much easier for people to get around the workshop. You've got workshops going on. We have the opportunity to have the youth space as well as being able to kind of move around in this beautiful building that is the Michael Fowler Centre. It feels it feels like we're doing something really [00:55:00] important now. This year has been, uh well, I mean a global pandemic with covid. How has outer spaces coped with covid? I admit that I came. I came into outer spaces after the covid pandemic. But from what I've learned, we've adapted some of our policies. We've moved a lot more online. We have more of a social media presence than we did beforehand. Um, yeah, it's kind of we're adapting a lot to the spaces, but making sure that we still have spaces for the youth to [00:55:30] come to, even if they can't physically come to them. And isn't it amazing? This is probably the only place in the world where this could be happening today. Yeah, it's amazing to think. I mean, there were 1000 people who have responded to the Facebook event, and I have family in England who are still on lockdown, So it's amazing that we're able to do this as freely as we are without having to maintain the one metre distance, meaning we can really kind of get to know each other in a different way. So here we have John and [00:56:00] Des Des and John. How are you? Both enjoy the atmosphere here. It's incredible. Now this is the first time it's been in the Michael Fowler Centre. What's the venue like? Both. It's just people are everywhere and it's just amazing how many and also so many young people who would have no idea. I think I don't know of what we went through in the 19 eighties and there. There was a good point to make that [00:56:30] this really started in 1986 thanks to Des and Pauline and James. Wonderful. Could you ever have imagined that the fear that you started in 86 could end up like this? No, I didn't. It nearly folded. Uh, the second year I ran myself alone and financed it. And if I hadn't have made a profit, I would have lost money. But it was a success and then ran it for 10 years. And then, of [00:57:00] course, met John and John fell apart at that point. There are so many people here today, Des and John, can you give me a sense of what the atmosphere is like It's buzzy, buzzy. It's electric, It's full of joy. It's full of people who are happy to be who they are and out and proud. And that's what it's all about. And it's so good to see so many smiles. And if I go back to the very first sphere, when we had these, Homs [00:57:30] came along to try and upset up, and I don't see anyone here that I would say that category. No, I think everybody is here to enjoy themselves. And whatever the gender or sexuality is isn't an issue. It's a it's a Wellington event and people should be proud for those who organised it. I What I love is the diversity of people. There's a store for the Indian group and so on. And this [00:58:00] is to me wonderful. Don't tell me we've got the national party too, I. I I've seen quite a few politicians today, which is well, that that's good. Maybe they can learn something from us now. The last year has been pretty tough with with Covid and the lockdowns. How how have you both been coping with with covid? We've done very well. And neighbours Uh a very mild. We weren't allowed out initially, but neighbours were wonderful. And I think ultimately [00:58:30] we probably enjoyed our time together as I Yes, John did some wonderful cooking and our garden is looking fabulous. It wasn't a hassle, and I'm very proud of what this government has done to keep us safe. What do you both hope for this year? What's your main hope? That we see COVID-19 abating, that people are getting vaccinated? It seems like it's going to be around for many years. [00:59:00] But if people get vaccinated and the more the merrier and also hopefully we will put on the news and it won't be depressing. I don't know that you can guarantee that. But what I would like to see is the same points as Des has just made. But I would hope they would lead to the opening of the borders, a travel bubble, at least with the islands and with Australia. And of course, I'd love to see New York and Paris again. But that's probably on the long finger. [00:59:30] Yeah, yeah. [01:00:00] You like to talk to us about what's happening here. What's happening here? Well, these people, as you can see you can see these signs. They're using abusive language. You can hear them. And we are here [01:00:30] for lesbian visibility. And this is this is what we are just for lesbian visibility. And they are right in our faces threatening us. Who's the inclusive ones? Who they are, who's unsafe. We're being told we make them the unsafe ones. We're We're 75 on older, and they are They are threatening us. It's not OK. It's not OK. We're harming nobody. We've got a history [01:01:00] of lesbianism in Wellington area for people to look at. That's all we're doing. We are lesbian feminists who led the fight right the way through. This is the way we sit and go Pack your shit and go pack your shit and go pack your shit and go pack your shit and go pack your shit and go get and go. [01:01:30] Pack your shit and go back and shit and go back your shit and go back your shit and go that shit going that Go home. Stay home, Jo. No! Well, these people are turf. They're anti trans feminists. They think trans women are [01:02:00] not women. They are. These people are just misinformed. bigots, and we're trying to protest them because we think they should not be at our venue, because this is for pride who are who are oppressed. Not they think they're oppressed, but they're not. That is how I describe it. Um, they're just the feminists, Um, the feminists that don't believe in trans rights, that's all. And they're they're being idiots and saying that, Oh, trans people's cause cancer and shit. Why do you think they're here today? Because they hate [01:02:30] us for no reason, because they don't understand. Fuck here. I like you. So what? They're doing these curse, which are the feminist to against trans people. They are videoing us. Some of us are minors, which is illegal, and they are here trying to tell us that we shouldn't be queer. We shouldn't be part of this community. And what we are is we're protesting them so they can go home and leave us to have our pride all inclusive. We think they're here because this is [01:03:00] a explicitly trans supportive event. And the older generations they think that trans people aren't real. Um, that we're predators, and what they're doing is they're trying to dissuade us they're handing out harmful propaganda to try and change the opinion of us and the public. And it's really, really, really sad. Yeah, [01:03:30] right. Me, I know. Yeah, [01:04:00] Doctor, I Murray, we're just standing outside the Michael Fowler Centre. And, um, can you describe what's happening at the moment? I'm standing with people who are supporting trans people here and especially our Trans youth. And the turfs are here, and they are talking about [01:04:30] not giving rights to trans people. And I'm sorry. I'm very upset by it all. It is quite distressing, and I've been accused of all sorts of difficult things by the when I talk to the turfs. But really, I'm here to support our delicate trans people who need the support they don't need to be hated against. But there's a there's a there's a twist to it. These the turfs are people who I used [01:05:00] to know. So they're my ex friends, and I find it distressing to see them talk so hatefully towards me and towards my Trans friends. I think they honestly believe that, um, that it's not right to change agenda. Um, and I that's I think that's what they believe and that that we are kind to anybody [01:05:30] who describes themselves as anything seems to be an affront to them. It it it comes from another era and it I. I think it belongs in another era that today we are very kind. And I'm very proud of our youth today, who are teaching me lots and lots of things about inclusivity and about change and trying and alternatives. And that speaks more to the reality of my life than one truth being true forever. [01:06:00] I think they're actually just packing up now because they've been met with quite a bit of opposition, haven't they? Today they have. And I'm very proud of the of the trans youth who are standing up for themselves, which is terrifying. I find it terrifying standing up to the turfs, and yet the trans youth are doing it themselves. These are 16 year old people that are know that know themselves so well that they are supporting each other, and I that delights [01:06:30] me very much. Yeah, So this pro counter protest started with three people with a sign and a trans flag, and within the space of what an hour and a half, it's turned to nearly 30 people against five or six. And I feel like that speaks for the love for our trans community, for the gin gender, queer [01:07:00] community and that love wins over hate. What? Why do you think they came today? These these people, I feel sorry for them because they hold misguided views. They aren't able to open their minds to the reality that not everyone conforms to the societal norms that we we [01:07:30] place on them. Right? And we people who don't conform to these societal norms have every right to exist. Can you tell me what it was like when there was that confrontation happening? How did how did it feel? Terrifying. I'm absolutely terrified on the inside, and I see them getting out their phones and photographing our youth, which is against the law. So I stand in front of our youth and I stand in front of their cameras because I don't want [01:08:00] them to have any action on our youth, who are I remember being young and queer, and that was terrifying enough, let alone having people yelling horrible things at me as these people are yelling horrible things at our youth and I. I hate that that action is happening. And I think one of the really hard things is that everyone is part of the rainbow community, so it's actually community members attacking each other. I'm sorry. I just want to slightly disagree with that. [01:08:30] If you don't support everyone and the and the queer community, you're not part of our community. And and that's exactly what they said to me that they are allowed to be here. And I guess they are allowed to be here because democracy is pretty hard and and I have to accept that they're allowed to be here. But I find it so hurtful to hear their hate. I find that so hurtful. I don't like it at all. Yeah, [01:09:00] Could you just describe what's been happening here and kind of how it came about? So lava was It's a turf group that registered to have a stall at out in the city, and when I got alerted that they were coming in, obviously did my homework and sent them an email. They are not allowed in this space for the safety of our Trans and for the safety of most marginalised communities, and I think they sent me an email saying that if I do a reply back to them, they'll pretty much on the threat of like, we'll take action [01:09:30] And this is their form of action, which is quite funny because it's, you know, five of them versus the whole community, and it just shows that their opinion does not matter at all in society. So how did it start? How did it start like today? How did it start? Well, Lava decided to show up, and I obviously alerted my committee that they are going to show up. And City Council told me that they were going to show up and the community just came together, bounded together, and it just shows I didn't organise any of this [01:10:00] counter protests, and it's fantastic, and it just shows that the community is here for each other and we will not stand by transphobia. Yeah, I'm here today with the quilted Bananas radio show, and the quilted Bananas radio show is probably the longest running community radio show [01:10:30] in New Zealand, I think. Ah, so I wondered if it was I didn't know for sure, and you probably know way better than I do, but yeah, I know it's been running for over 30 years and was originally the lesbian radio show, Um, and sustained as the lesbian radio show as a weekly show for, um Yeah, almost 30 years. And then just in recent years, it shifted just to be to change its name and probably kind of its co has become a little bit more inclusive than just, um, aimed at lesbians. And so, yeah, so the kind of show lives on, but yeah, it's pretty [01:11:00] amazing to have lasted that long on community radio. And could you tell me, what does quilted bananas stand for? Yeah, So I have to look at this. I do forget. So quilted banana stands for queer intersectional, intersex, lesbian, Takata, trans NB, diverse bisexual asexuals and Nanas because a lot of the people on it are identified as Nanas as well. So from that yeah, we kind of We established this name of quilted bananas, which was just a bit of fun, really, But was a way [01:11:30] of trying to say we're broadening out now in terms of who we're aimed at as a listenership, but also who we want to be involved in it. Yeah, and And I read somewhere that that that it's also about, um just all those, uh, slippery overlaps within communities that actually, it's things aren't as binary now, are they? Yeah, totally. And that's, you know, a journey that certainly the radio show has really been on because it was established very much as a lesbian radio show show. Um, and just sustained, as I say, for a long [01:12:00] time, as as a lesbian radio show, which is amazing, I think is amazing for it to have, you know, had a weekly kind of show just, um, run by lesbians. Um, but over time, yeah, like like that's kind of doesn't quite define everybody that's involved and everybody that we want to be involved. So definitely there's had to be some, you know, some big discussions about what is the show about now And who are we about now? Yeah, and it's really interesting because, um, like, literally about 10 15 minutes ago, I was outside and there was a a bit [01:12:30] of a protest going on. Um, and and I guess around turfs and exclusion and I. I guess some people haven't had those discussions yet. Have they? Yeah, and I think that's the thing. And that's and even on, um, definitely on a collective like this. We would have people that have been discussing this for years and years and years and others that, you know are really new to the discussion. And so there's still long way to go in terms of where everybody's own kind of feelings are about it. And so, yeah, the protests [01:13:00] here today are part of that that actually that discussion continues on both sides of the kind of debate and the discussion. And some of us have got used to kind of discussing, um, this kind of stuff for years and years and others are only kind of just come into it. Really? Yeah. So within quilted bananas, how did how did those discussions kind of happen? How how How did you navigate that? Yeah, I mean, we have a pretty strong collective, and we have everyone does their own individual shows. [01:13:30] Um, but we obviously have regular collective meetings, and so really, we were quite clear at making those discussions quite explicit at some of those meetings, So, um, yeah, we would have it almost on an agenda to say, Look, this is something we want to be discussing next week at the meeting, everyone goes off and does their own individual thing on their show. And that's what's great about it. It's really creative. You can, you know, your show can be whatever it wants to be. But we have then kind of developed a really to make sure that your show can be whatever it wants to be. But we obviously don't want [01:14:00] it to be offensive or we don't want it to, You know, it needs to be an inclusive show. So we've had very explicit discussions about it. Basically, Yeah, which probably sits you up for the next 30 years, I guess. Because actually, if if you've got those lines of communication open, I hope so. And I think we've got a pretty strong now around what the show and is all about. So, um, yeah, maybe hopefully another 30 years. Or should we check in in 30 years time? Yeah. Yeah, I see you in 30 years, then. Gareth. [01:14:30] Uh, so my name is Aaron Soma. Uh, I'm part of the group Wellington. Indian Pride. Uh, we launched just a couple of months ago, and this is out of a need for, uh, being able to, uh, be positive and, uh, enjoy and celebrate your cultural identity as well as being part of the community as well. Uh, in some traditional cultures, perhaps like the Indian, uh, community, Um, that can be a hard thing to do, and those worlds can be quite separate. What we want to do is encourage people, um, to celebrate the fact that they can be Indian [01:15:00] and part of the rainbow community at the same time. So here at out of the square, which is a fantastic event put on by the Wellington Pride Festival, um, we have a So we've had lots of great connections, um, people that are Indian and people that are not Indian, who know Indian people who may benefit from our group. And what we aim to do is to create a social network for people, uh, where this group fits, as well as ensuring that the community is along with our journey. So over time, we've been having conversations [01:15:30] with, um, some of the leaders of the Indian community who are supporting us, saying this is fantastic what you're doing. We love what you're doing, and we're here to support it. So the the wider Indian community is is right behind this initiative as well. We've had support from the Wellington Indian Association and the Wellington Indian Sports Club as well as committees. Um, within those organisations. You know, what I realise is that we can't do this on our own. It takes supporters backing us as our vehicle for change. We need to feel loved and supported by them. [01:16:00] For Indian families, it can be really, really difficult coming from traditional, uh, or religious backgrounds, Um, where sometimes views just don't align. But as we know here in the rainbow, community lovers love and that's all that really matters. Um, they love us. We love them. And so we are part of this world together, and that's what those connections with the community aim to do. So what changed last year to to prompt the formation of the group? So I'm Indian and I'm gay, [01:16:30] and I'm I'm married to my, uh, husband. Uh, we've been together for 10 years now. Um, we marched in pride last year together. I noticed in Wellington uh, pride parade. There weren't any cultural groups there had been previously, but there weren't. So I took it upon myself to reach out to the Wellington, uh, community, the leadership, um, to talk to them about, um, identity and diversity and inclusivity. And they were on board with that, Uh, so it's been a good [01:17:00] few months of very healthy conversations to get to this point. We are are backed by them, and we are just rolling out, um, a few different events and things like that. Visibility like what we're here for today. Um, and it's been really great. We've, uh there are tough conversations along the way. There always are, but nothing, um, that was worth doing was ever easy. And so we're here for that. Um, and we're just so grateful to be in those conversations and having, uh, people back us at the same time. And have [01:17:30] you been surprised by any of the responses? One thing I've been surprised about is, uh, living my life in isolation as an Indian gay man. But ever since I launched Wellington Indian Pride, I've made other connections with other Indian people who are part of the rainbow community, and that's what it's all about. It's about knowing there are other people out there that are just like you and they celebrate with you. And they are also Indian, proud and part of the rainbow community and proud. [01:18:00] And that's really important. It's about, uh, it's about connection. And I think the last year with COVID-19 has taught us that we all must care for each other. Look out for each other. And, um, that social connection is one of the most important things we've got. And we need to make it, uh, loving and worthwhile. Can you describe what it was like marching in that pride parade last year? I mean, I love marching and pride. My mum was there watching me, and she was a a proud mum, and, uh, I loved every moment of that. So every time [01:18:30] I I wear a rainbow flag, um, I do it with pride. Um, but I can and there are others that can't possibly in the Indian community, and and so our goal is to really encourage those people that they can do that, too. And if it's not for them, if it's not the right time, because everyone has their own journey and wrong time and different time frames. It's important to know that we are there as their voice, too. And when the time is right, we'll still be there for them. And at today's store here at out [01:19:00] in the city, Um, can you describe the response to to the group we've had lots of people come up to us today and applaud us for what we're doing? Um, presentation for people of colour, um, sometimes lacks, um in the, uh, rainbow community. Uh, and so I think people have been, um, surprised to see us. They've been, uh, felt refreshed, seeing what we're doing and hearing our story. Uh, and that's what we wanna do connect with the wider community. Um, the response has been fantastic, because if I've not seen, uh, Indian people that have come up to us, [01:19:30] it's been people that are non Indian who say I have Indian friends, um, or flatmates. Uh, that would also love to be part of this group. They are part of the rainbow community, but are facing their own issues. And so it's those added connections that will make a difference. As I say, uh, if it's not right for someone right now, it will be down the track. And that's that's OK, too. At Thank you. Uh, greetings, everybody. It's a real privilege to be here. [01:20:00] I'm joined up on stage by two of my MP colleagues. Uh, this is, uh, Barbara Edmonds. Barbara is the MP for man. Give it up for bar. And to my left is, um Glen Bennett. Glen is the MP for new Plymouth. Um, I think I can confidently say he's the first gay MP for New Plymouth, and he managed to get married the day before. He gave his maiden speech in Parliament in February this year. So [01:20:30] before I, I get going, I'm gonna look scan the crowd because just a couple of minutes ago, I got to have a wee chat with Dez Smith and John Joli. If Dez and John are here, are still here and can hear me, and they wanna materialise anywhere in 1986 which is a long time ago. Uh, Dez and John hosted the first ever what was then called Gay and Lesbian Fear in Newtown School in 1986 as part of the campaign to [01:21:00] promote homosexual law reform. Their idea that they had 36 years ago is what's turned in today. So to deers and to John, can we just give them a huge What? Yeah. I bring out the best wishes of the Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern. She's had some other events, Um, on today, which means that she can't be here, But she did ask that, uh, we pass this on. It's a massive pride with him because they've got the parade [01:21:30] up in Auckland this weekend as well as this event, uh, here today. So, um, it's a huge time for us, and it's a real honour and a privilege to be here. The biggest thing I wanted to do today in getting up here is just to acknowledge that, um for all the communities that are part of this beautiful rainbow that we have here in Wellington, I want you to know that we continue when we're down at Parliament to make sure that what we're doing when we're passing laws and we're doing things down there matter for our communities and I want to say really clearly [01:22:00] we haven't finished yet. We've done some really great things over the years. We passed homosexual law reform act. We got marriage equality and we changed the Human Rights Act to prevent discrimination. These are all huge and important things, but we haven't finished yet. And I want to say a specific, uh, shout out today to our trans community to say that he and we know that the issues that we've got to resolve there are important. Those issues are around the [01:22:30] way the Human Rights Act recognises our trans community the way that we make sure that it's easier in terms of birth certificates. Yes, the yes, the marriages bill is back. And we are going to make that change that really important for us to be able to stay and share with the trans community, but also in the day to day issues of access to health services, being treated fairly in tenancy situations and so on. We know we've got to do more, and we will be doing more, uh, in that area as well, and the other one, because I know it's a big topic for everyone, [01:23:00] is that by the end of this year, conversion therapy will be banned and it is practise that has no place whatsoever in a society such as ours. The thing we got to do is make sure we ban the thing we're trying to ban. And so it's really important that we do the work to get the definitions right to make sure we capture and don't allow loopholes to see people in our communities thinking exploited. [01:23:30] So that's the work that's going on now, but that will happen by the end of the year. There's a heap of other things that we want to be doing and getting on with to make sure we affirm, uh, all of our communities. But I just wanted to get up here today and say on behalf of Barb and Glen and our whole Rainbow Team and Labour and and and I I this year zero Minister Avi as well you can come on the stage. I It's absolutely, absolutely. It was really handy to have an infectious disease specialist in our that as we were dealing with [01:24:00] COVID-19, and that's, uh, doctor. Aha. So we've got a big rainbow team in Parliament. We also work really closely with the other political parties, and I do want to mention that we have a cross party rainbow network so that we bring all the parties together because I don't want human rights and the rights of our community to be politicised. They should certainly be what we do at Parliament and up. Poll goes Sorry. Acknowledge the other parties that we have, um, here today who are who are part of their group. So other than that, and this email wants to grab the mic, I just want to say happy, Have a fantastic [01:24:30] day. So the last time we spoke, Grant, it was at the Pride parade in 2020 and it was just a couple of days before lockdown. How's last year been for you? Uh, yeah, it's been the most crazy year of my life, but I think that probably applies to a lot of people, not just me. Uh, incredibly busy. Not particularly good for my mental or physical [01:25:00] health, But, uh, I'm really proud of how New Zealand got through it. I mean, for for me. I mean, I've just been following what you've been saying on the TV, but for you, I mean, it must have been incredibly scary, because, I mean, no one's done this before. It was I mean, there was no playbook for what we were doing. New Zealand hasn't had to handle a pandemic like this. And so we largely based it on science and on evidence radical, but also on our instincts about what New Zealanders would, um would would want us [01:25:30] to do and let's look after each other. And I feel like that's what we did. And it just means that we can have something like today where we've got thousands of people without social distancing without masks. Isn't that amazing? It's fantastic. And that is, I mean, that's the privilege that most countries around the world just haven't had. And so we you know, I mean, I think sometimes we might take it for granted just a little bit. But, um, but equally New Zealanders deserve this because they work so hard and that concept of of looking after each other, I just feel like it's it [01:26:00] is part of New Zealanders and you know, I think Jacinda leadership Ashley's leadership were tremendous during that period. But actually the the the success is owned by by all the people who are here. This is also a really amazing time for rainbow politicians because we've got the most rainbow MP S out rainbow MP S in New Zealand. Ever we do and and as a parliament, I think it's really important. I just said it in my comments on the stage. Now that actually we we're moving to the point where it's [01:26:30] not so much a partisan issue anymore. You know, we have a cross party rainbow group that everybody is represented on. Um, so I think progress on some of the issues I was talking about before trans rights Um uh, conversion therapy. Those sorts of things will be so much, much easier with a parliament that's got such a diverse representation. Certainly in the Labour Party caucus. Honestly, you know, I mean, I'm a bit overwhelmed. Um, not just by the talent overall, but by the talent of the Rainbow Caucus. And so Yeah, it's fantastic. So what? What do you hope for this year? What? [01:27:00] What's your dream? My dream for this year is to get every New Zealander who wants to be vaccinated and is above the age of 16, which is what the rules are, which is what the efficacy is vaccinated. That's what we've got to do. Um, because that will allow us to return to some sort of sense of normality. I've got a million other things I need to be doing this year. Sorting out the housing crisis, getting on top of child poverty, starting to address climate change. Uh, but actually, for me, that's the thing. The most important thing in terms of rainbow issues, um, we'll get that conversion therapy legislation [01:27:30] through. And that will be really important bit of work to do on how we deal with trans rights and the Human Rights Act. But I'm sure we can make some really good progress on that this year, too. Uh So I'm Tyler, and, um, we're volunteering here at the, uh, Wellington Rainbow Team stall. There's a whole bunch of activities from singing to badminton to dance, even a couple of reading groups, uh, for the queer community. So we're just here signing up people and getting information, [01:28:00] see if we can get many people as we can. So how how does Rainbow Team Wellington work? Um, because it's a It's a collection of organisations here. Yeah, it's like a collection of organisation and they give us support and like organising stalls and so on and so forth and sort of just make sure there's a cohesive pathway for things to sort of run towards. Why is it important to be here today after for visibility? I guess just so that we keep making sure people know that there's these activities they can do in a in a space that is inclusive to them if they don't [01:28:30] feel comfortable going to like a mainstream sort of environment. So today is the first time this is being held at the Michael Fowler Centre. And there are, I would say, thousands of people around. Um, can you describe the atmosphere? It's kind of alive, which is good, and it's very, very, very colourful. Um, to be fair, I haven't seen the Michael Fowler Centre this colourful, um, I it's It's quite nice to see all the different things people are wearing and all the stalls and stuff. It's good. My name is Bridget Hughes. My stall is to do [01:29:00] with my my tiny little sewing business called Wayward Masquerade. We make dice, we make dice bags, we make dice jails, we make historical garb. Um, we do a lot of geeky things. Um, and most of what's on the table I made. Wow. And you also do Rainbow Dragons? Yes, they are one of our actually, we have pride dragons in about 14 different designs. Um, the the rainbows are the the most visible, I guess. Can you can you take me through some of those designs? OK, so we have, uh, your original, [01:29:30] Uh, well, not original. Your your your generic six bar Rainbow Dragon. Here we have, um, the Black Rainbow. This was inspired by the 2017 Philadelphia private flag. However, I unfortunately, I wasn't able to find a fabric and a brown as well. But it's so it's it's a work in progress. We have two trans designs. Um, like a a very vivid version and a more pastor version down here, we have the We have the ace. We have a gender. We have non binary gender fluid. What else have [01:30:00] we got? Um, we had pan, but we've sold out. We had, um, a romantic, but we've sold out. Um, we also have polyamorous. We have, um, an earlier version of the the the lesbian flag, which is in terms of chronology. Somewhere in between the lipstick and the pink and orange, and we're actually planning to run a Kickstarter in June. Fingers crossed that it goes ahead to get the ace by Trans and the new, uh, well, the new pink and orange lesbian flag into a manufactured format so that [01:30:30] they become more affordable because handmade, unfortunately is expensive. So So how long does it take you to to make one? Depends how difficult the dragon is. Um, if I'm doing really well, I can put one together in a couple of hours, but that's that's getting them cut out for me, like in on an industrial on a commercial scale. Um, if I have to cut them out or if something goes wrong, it's quite a lot longer. So they Yeah, they are. They are a little bit time consuming, but I do like them. What? [01:31:00] What's your biggest seller? OK, so it started out as the red and black manufactured dragon, but the rainbows are catching up. Uh, in terms of the handmade ones, Ace is the clear winner, followed by Bye. And then we have, uh, trans as the next one, and then the rest of them, we sort of see not many sales But it's nice just to have them because especially, um, teenagers and kids. You actually see them come up and they just light up when they realise that that's for them. And even if it's not something that as a teenager [01:31:30] you can afford, it's just really nice to they can actually find their dragon. Today's event has just been so chock full of people and particularly youth as well. I mean, what what? What is it like being having a stall here? Uh, it's intense. It's, um, on the one hand, it's really nice to talk to people and to see these different identities and see people not being afraid to show their it is. It's It's good, it's nice to It's nice to exist in this space. And I think when your existence [01:32:00] and our existence as a community isn't always guaranteed or safe or accepted, it's just nice to have that space. So, yeah, Chaz, if you could just introduce yourself and tell me how promised land and subsequent books are going, uh, yeah, so, um, promised Land was started in or released in February 2017 after a successful Kickstarter campaign, and then we've released two subsequent books, Um, maiden voyage, which was released in June 2018. And, [01:32:30] um, Raven Wild, which was released in August 2020. And how have they been going? Good. Yeah. Um, we've had a great response. Uh, two or three of the books and probably the most, uh, common feedback we get are like, Oh, I wish I had this book when I was growing up, So yeah, that was why we created them as well. Is it more a national audience or an international audience? Um, I think there's a lot of people in New Zealand who still don't know that our books exist. Uh, I think I think it's about [01:33:00] 44% of our orders on our online store. Promised land store dot com. They come from America and Canada. Uh, and then I think there's another 23% that are from Europe, so, yes, it's probably dominantly international. Has the, um, pandemic had any effect on book production or distribution or anything like that? Yeah, the impact of covid. Um, obviously, we couldn't sell any books. So, uh, during our lockdown, we lost three months [01:33:30] of sales. Really? Um, and then, um, in terms of our book Raven Wild. We were on the We were meant to release that in June last year, so we had to delay that by 33 months because just getting books into the country. And, um, we decided to give our illustrators a bit more time in terms of well being because we were like, we're in a global pandemic and you're trying to illustrate and finish the Children's book. Well, maybe we should delay it a bit. Yeah. Can you give me a bit of a synopsis of of the, um, the storylines for soul fire in [01:34:00] Raden World? So Soul fire is about a 12 year old boy called George who enters a magical realm called mythic, where artists have magical powers and he has to fight this evil lord Hera, who is determined to eliminate, um artists and get rid of them and imagination. And Raven Wild is about a courageous young boy called Hawk who transitions into a young woman called Raven and then goes on a adventure to stop [01:34:30] the animal kingdom from being, um, kind of conquered by an evil poacher who wants to get hold of this magic gem that will allow him to control all creatures great and small. So, um yeah, that's so So where do you Where did the ideas come from? For the for the books. Um, well, the original the original book promised land. The idea was Adam and I both come from a film background. So we developed an animated feature project that we wanted to get off the ground. Um, and so it was really giving ourselves that brief and go, Well, if we were [01:35:00] gonna make an animated feature like the ones we grew up on, Um, there's a American lyricist called Howard Ashman who passed away in the early nineties. And he did Beauty and the Beast and Little Mermaid. And we were like, Well, if he was around today, what type of story would he tell? And so that was where the inspiration came from. I think, uh, and then that was, you know, when we said, Oh, what if there'll be a prince and a farm boy who meet and fall in love? And so that was our jumping off point. Um, And then, more broadly, it was, uh, about telling a story so much. Queer media [01:35:30] is sort of defined by the rules of our world. So, um, most of the time our identity will be part of the conflict. And we were like, Well, what if there's a world where equality exists? There's no homophobia, no transphobia and like everyone is equal. So therefore, your storytelling rules are completely different. You can't fall into any of the kind of patriarchal or, you know, normative rules. And so anything's possible. And then that we were like, we decided that was how you normalise that for a new audience kind of aspirational, like [01:36:00] what you wish the world was. But we were like, Well, it can be And this we make up the world. So yeah, and what's coming next for both of you? What's in the what's in the plans? So at the moment, because we've got the trilogy, um, really, like trying to sell our current stock? Um, and I am working on a second book to soul fire. Um, I've been writing for quite a while, then bit slower than I'd like, But until we can kind of into national distribution like that's been our biggest [01:36:30] challenge is trying to get into those international distribution and publishing kind of realms, and we have developed the screenplay. So we are like, trying to I recently about three weeks ago got a manager in L A. So hopefully we'll try and push that forward. Now, maybe that will make the publishers pick it up. So I'm Kim Wheeler. I work at the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, and we're testing here today at the Pride event, Um, the final pride event for the for [01:37:00] the year in Wellington and you're testing for we're testing for HIV and STIs. So the NZAF partners with sexual health clinic and we do a rapid test for, um, we're particularly focused on gay and bisexual men transgender, um, men and women, and also the African community because they're most vulnerable to HIV. And then our colleagues from the, um, sexual [01:37:30] health clinic provide a test for, um, chlamydia and gonorrhoea. So we've got it all covered, all the bases covered at the moment. So what will happen is we will attract clients in who need or haven't had a test in the last six months. Um, and they'll come in here and we will be able to provide them with that service. We notify everyone that if if they have a positive test Um but usually we send something out to say, Were you positive [01:38:00] or negative thoughts and things and then we refer them on to the to the health service. So this year is quite a significant year in terms of HIV and A I DS because I think it was 1981 when the first, um kind of public discussion was happening around AIDS in the US. Although it's got a longer history, we now know, um but where are we at nowadays, with HIV in New Zealand, So IV in New Zealand is still [01:38:30] on its way downwards So far as new infections are concerned, However, men who have sex with men, gay and bisexual men actually are most remain the most vulnerable group in New Zealand. Um and so we're still keeping that process going. It's very important for people we're we're now targeting. Our services are preventing transmission of HIV. Um however, when we are able to identify someone who is positive, [01:39:00] then we are able to facilitate their process into the system. So of course, as you know, um, people now with HIV, um, if they're on treatment early. Uh, their life expectancy is normal, so HIV is no longer what it used to be. Um, there are still a few people, sadly, who present too late, um, and have a DS. And so you can be treated [01:39:30] very well for AIDS at at this time. But it is very difficult. It's much more challenging to come back from an aid diagnosis than it is to start treatment earlier. Remain undetectable. And that means as a person living with IV, you cannot transmit HIV to other people. We're currently a year into the COVID-19 global pandemic. And I'm wondering, are there any resonances between [01:40:00] what happened with a I DS in the eighties to what is happening now with covid? There's certainly if if HIV and a I DS had got the same response that we had to have to covid, we would potentially be in a much better situation at the moment. Certainly covid has affected um, many processes many countries. So all over the world, there are people who [01:40:30] are potentially not accessing testing, not able to get, um, ongoing ST I testing, um, and not able to get on, therefore not able to get on to treatment. But in relation to covid, I think we haven't seen there was a change, of course, during the lockdown, with people having, um, But we were offering The AIDS foundation was offering actually home test kits so people could do their own testing at home. [01:41:00] And has there been a change in the actual, um, sexual behaviour as well? Because, I mean, for a time, um, it was very much keep to your bubble. You know, when we were in lockdown, um, and and there was a move away from, say, casual encounters and also things like, um, the sex on site venues have seen a decrease in people going there. So So, um, yeah. Do you have any comments on the on the change in in kind of in terms of behaviour, Or I think, Well, definitely. [01:41:30] With everything closed, people have have reduced, um, the the opportunities for, um, uh, random sexual encounter, I suppose, have have reduced somewhat. And, um, but because New Zealand was in such a good situation, I think that we as we've progressed into level two away from the lockdown, I think we've We've come through that, and so people are back to [01:42:00] their normal lives now. Yeah. Um, there has been a change. Um, for example, in Wellington here, with, uh, one of the six on site venues has recently closed down. Um, so you know, there are there are less options, but now many people are, you know, able to hook up online through grinder and those sorts of So So why is it important for Athena Centre, the AIDS Foundation, to be here today at this event? [01:42:30] The New Zealand Aid Foundation is very, um, important, well known organisation. In response to HIV, um, we have recently moved from A We've become a service and outreach, a melded service where the the foundation was providing two areas of service previously, and the two, components of service have come together. Um and so we tend to target our services [01:43:00] now in this prevention, testing and prevention area. Um, it is always good for the AIDS foundation to be seen, um, in events like this, and it's wonderful to be able to contribute to the health of people you know, in potentially very vulnerable situations. So it's a very powerful thing. We're also able to promote our ongoing services this way. Um, and while a test today, [01:43:30] um, you know, a person having a test today who may not have tested for some time is actually it's very helpful to then engage in the service as well, uh, and continuously engage. So today I'm here with the young nets, but more broadly, the New Zealand National Party. And why is it important for the young Nets to be here? Well, it's important because a vast number of our members are of, um, the LGBT community. So it's great to show that we're here in including them [01:44:00] in making they making sure that they feel included. Um, no matter what and what's been the reaction to the nationals, uh, stall here today. Good, good, and very receptive also to the young Nets. Because obviously, we came out early on the ban of gay conversion therapy. And when we pushed the party, um, to to back it as well. The reception trust has been fantastic today. So the young nets are supporting the conversion therapy ban? Yes. And what what about other legislation [01:44:30] that or or things that you want changed for Rainbow Communities? I think there's a vast number of things. I mean, we always go back and consultate with our members, and it's always what the members want to see. That at the end of the day, Is there a particular policy off the top of my head? No, I don't have that. But we're always engaging with members and making sure that their views are represented. How did you get involved with the young Nats? Well, I've been involved with the young Nats now for about three years. Um, I'm originally from the Hawke's Bay, um so followed the party back home. And when I came down here, I got involved, Um, [01:45:00] at a at a week, I should say, What are the what are the things that draw you to the young Nets as opposed to another political party? I think it comes down to the values of the party. Um, things like personal responsibility, freedom of enterprise. That's what really resonate with me. And that's the reason why, uh, I joined the young Nets as its youth wing, but also the party as well. And how are rainbow people represented within young nets? Do you have, like, a a caucus or how how does that work. So within the party, there's National with Pride, which is [01:45:30] a interest group of, um, that represent that community. Um, and also within the Nats. There's also quite a few, um, members who are also members of the LGBT community. So they was. They're very, um, well represented and always can feel like they can reach out to whoever's in the various different levels of leadership. Yeah, and for you personally, um, what is it, like attending or being part of these kind of events? Oh, it's great, I. I think the atmosphere that at these events are are second to none. And it's always positive to see how [01:46:00] how everyone here is having such a great time. And everyone's here for genuinely the right reason, which I really enjoy, right? So my name is Samantha Bush, and I work for the Ministry for Primary Industries, and I'm here supporting the Primary Pride Network within the the industries. Yeah. So how long has the Primary Pride Network been around? Um, well, there was the first iteration, but the second iteration that I've been involved in has been about 2. 5 years now. And so what does it do? Um, [01:46:30] basically, we support a diverse and inclusive, um, network throughout the whole of the the Ministry for primary industries, making sure that everybody feels welcome to bring their whole Selves to work every single day and making sure that they get the support that they need when things do go wrong or happen. So what are the benefits from working at NP? I, um Well, basically, there's a lot of different places that you can be. They're all over the the regions and all over the country as well as overseas. So many opportunities for you to grow and do different things. I've known a lot of people who've gone through the ministry and started in one place and end up [01:47:00] in a completely different place in the ministry because they found something that interests them. Um, and because we're making it a more diverse and inclusive place to work, we think that it's a really great place for the rainbow community to work. So So, what areas does MP I cover? Um, there's forestry, new, uh, New Zealand Food safety. We have biosecurity, we have fisheries, and then we just have our corporate services, which manages all of the different areas. And why is it important to be here today? I think to show people that our ministries are becoming more inclusive and showing that our rainbow at MP I come [01:47:30] here and see us and know that they're working in a place where they have that support, where they've got people who are just like them and want them to bring their whole Selves to work. Can you describe the the the number of people here today and the kind of the atmosphere? The atmosphere has been electric today. We were part of the march that ended here at Michael Centre this morning and just the amount of people that were there. And today we've had so many people come through the doors. It's been hundreds. I think, um, I wouldn't I would I wouldn't have been able to count. It's been so many people, but met so many wonderful people [01:48:00] saw so many politicians around, which is really encouraging, um, to see the parties here representing the youth and that kind of thing. It's really amazing. It's it's been super great and the entertainment has been wonderful. So my name's Gavin. I'm a trustee and the treasurer of the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand. Um, trust. And we are the owners, if you like, for the community of a community archive that's housed at the Alexander Turnbull Library. Yeah, and at the store today, we've [01:48:30] been, um, talking mainly for people who are interested in some of our recent creative output. Like the archive is a live, uh, zine that we've, um, collaborated on with, um Wellington Zine Fest recently. And we've been signing up volunteers, and yeah, I'm just generally talking about what the archives are up to, and in particular, our plans to create a create a digital archive and do digitization of their collection items and our finding aids. That sounds very exciting. Tell me more. Um Well, [01:49:00] I think our our immediate focus is on, um, digitising our index card catalogue, which is a, you know, a printed print card based catalogue. We've made photographs of every card. We've run an OCR process, you know that recognises the text on them, but we've got 7. 5 1000 cards that need to have that final 10% of text. Um, errors kind of corrected online. And we're planning to run an event later this year that we're calling a transcriber [01:49:30] on. We want to involve people across the whole country, um, working with us online, You know, we'll connect with them via zoom, you know, zoom chats and so on. Get them involved in helping us transcribe, Um, those index cards and we're gonna make a fun event out of it will happen across the whole day. Um, but we think that's a great way for us as a Wellington based archive to kind of connect with people that want to understand what the archive is all about. All across New Zealand, I imagine a fun [01:50:00] and exciting event, but also an event where you could be uncovering some real treasures. Yeah, absolutely. I think, um, we we did a pilot with their posters, uh, index cards and the the the few volunteers that we got to help out with that were really stimulated by the breadth of the subject material. They were really interested in the way that we described items and we got lots of engagement about the subject terms we were using as a as a community archive. It's important that the way we describe things reflects [01:50:30] the language that people use these days, um, to describe items. So we got lots of engagement about that, And people really enjoyed, you know, being exposed to, you know, quite a wide range of material and subject matter. So that language of description Does that mean that you actually then have to retrospectively go back to, um, older indexes? Older cards and Andre interpret them? Well, I think we'll always retain the original metadata that they had, but we'll certainly we're very open [01:51:00] to kind of. And we're keen to kind of supplement those those subject terms so that they they they can, um, kind of, uh be found and discovered by people using modern modern language. Yeah, so that that's that's another aspect of our work programme. We've got a got a plan to do that, Um, and but it's really important that we get community input into what terms we use. So we that's part of what we would do during the transcribe is maybe have AAA Forum, an online forum where people [01:51:30] can say they they find a term that they think, Oh, it's not quite the right match. How about using this language. I want them to come and contribute that and be part of the discussion and the dialogue about about how we, um, index material and make it discoverable. Yeah. So once things have been indexed and made discoverable, uh, what happens then? Well, we're fortunate enough that we've received some funding to get particular collection items digitised so they'll be photographed, um, [01:52:00] and then, uh, stored in a in a range of electronic formats. And then they'll be linked up with these, um, index cards that describe them so that when people search for particular items, if that item is available electronically or digitally, then they'll be able to access it directly online. Um, so that's that's a big programme of work. But we're making a start by piloting with a range of different, um, items across video, audio, photograph, collections, posters, manuscript [01:52:30] collections and and we wanna we wanna select items that, um, have got kind of current interest and particularly items that kind of connect with the school curriculum. Um, you know, particularly for high school students who are learning about activism, including homosexual, the homosexual law reform period. That's that's one particular focus. So we want we'll select items that are good to help us understand what our correct digitization processes should be. [01:53:00] Pilot items that they're going to be relevant to has legs. Noticed an increase in schools wanting to, um, dive into the collections and use the collections. Yeah, absolutely. Um, we regularly get requests for school visits from Wellington schools, and some of them have even come from as far away as the Hawke's Bay, which is fantastic. Um, so we you know, we encourage that, and it's we we're finding even at the store today. We're being approached by, [01:53:30] um, youngsters that, you know, visited the archives maybe even two years ago, and they've come back and kind of wanna want to kind of maintain the connection with us, which is which is awesome. Yeah. So this is the first time, um, out in the park is now out in the city and it's in the Michael Fowler Centre. How has the space been for? And, um, can you describe the, um, the atmosphere today? Well, I think, um, we think the atmosphere is fantastic, and it's it's amazing to see so many young people [01:54:00] and families here. The space has worked really well, for us, it's great. And people can just sort of, like, promenade past us, Um, and come and come and see us. And we're not having to deal with, um, holding our paper materials down in the wind. Um, we could have a, you know, a nice, um, stable display. It's great. I we're in the second tier, and the ceiling was a bit too low for for me to put up the banner. I was going to end up creating a sort of a health hazard. [01:54:30] Um, if I put the tried to put the banner up, but that's that's not a major grumble, because we've been able to have this other display materials. So I think generally it's been a really positive, um, experience for us. And it's, um I I'd be very happy if they continue with this format. Um, next year. Yeah. And can you describe, um, the the the mood of the crowd? Oh, I think very celebratory. Lots of smiles on people's faces. People [01:55:00] willing to come up and have a chat. Um, yeah, it's been brilliant. Yeah. Hi. Um, I'm James Malcolm. I'm here with outline today. We're a nationwide, uh, Rainbow Mental Health Organisation and we offer peer support services around the country free and anonymous. Yeah. How has Covid impacted on what outline has been doing? Um, so we've been really fortunate, actually. And we've had an awesome partnership with spark, and they've been able to help us. So we used [01:55:30] to do all of our, uh, peer support, uh, over the phone. In our support line, people used to have to come into the office, and we're actually really, um, able to really quickly have a turnaround into remote volunteering. Which means that now volunteers can, uh, take calls from home. And that's been like a huge game changer for us. And it actually meant that we were able to continue our services pretty uninterrupted throughout covid and and have the type of inquiries or calls changed over the over the last year. Yeah, there's definitely [01:56:00] been a lot more, uh, isolation has, like, been a huge, uh, issue for I mean all communities. But, like, especially this ram, the rainbow community, uh, has had a lot of time that when you're locked down with your family who might not be as accepting or just like, away from your chosen family and your support networks. That can be tough. So definitely that has been something that we've seen an increase on. So how did you get involved? Oh, I apply. I've been working at outline for three years now. I'm the communications coordinator. Um and I just, uh I don't [01:56:30] know. I just I was working in hospitals. To be honest, I was like, Oh, this seems like a better job to be able to to work for the community and, uh, expand outline's name. And I think we've done a really cool job at at getting the word out there in the last three years and or and beyond. And so why is, um, it important for outline to be here today? It's really important to outline. I mean, specifically, uh uh, because we have Historically, we're a nationwide organisation and so it's really important for us to branch outside of Auckland like historically, we, [01:57:00] uh, have always been a his a nationwide organisation. But it's just starting to become a really big priority for us to, uh, expand our marketing and let people know more about us. Outside of Auckland, that's been like a big focus of our organisation. Um, so, yeah, we're really excited to be here. It's the first time in recent time, anyway, that we've been in Wellington for pride. And can you describe the atmosphere today because it's been, I'm sure thousands of people have been through totally. Yeah, it's been a great atmosphere. Everyone's having a great time. It's really cool to see all different types of people coming together and celebrating [01:57:30] pride. It's like, Yeah, it's a great It's a great thing to watch Jan. Earlier today, there was a protest outside the Michael Ler Centre by, um, AAA Small group, and that was counted by a larger group who were protesting their protest. Um, I was just wondering, do you have any comment on that? So, um, I saw the counter protest in front of him. Um, and really, What it demonstrated to me was that this is a very, very [01:58:00] small group of people who are not in step with the community as a whole, and, um and that just feels so obvious when I come into the space and the diversity and the energy and the sense of just kind of joy in the event. Um So that's what I'm taking away from this. How do you think? Because there's obviously quite divergent views. How How do we get [01:58:30] through this? Um, the sense I have is we just need to keep moving to progress. Uh, trans non-binary and intersex rights, and and, like other things that are and kind of politics that are fear based, is usually once you progress the rights, people realise that actually, their fears are unfounded. And we just need to keep moving. And people will realise that you know, the world is they not maybe a little bit better [01:59:00] than it was before. One of the things that really stood out to me was the strength of, um the protest against the protest and and just the amount of people and the diversity of people that were protest that that were standing up and saying, No, this is not right. Absolutely. And, um, you know, when I initially heard that there was going to be that protest I, I just felt quite sad about it. And, you know, for some of the [01:59:30] people, at least who have been respected elders in our community, um, and that they would be putting themselves just at such odds with the community and isolating themselves in effect, um, just makes me quite sad for them. Yeah, and that's because it's causing harm in terms of the views. But actually, when I see the strength of the community in this context, [02:00:00] actually the strength of the community will outweigh those marginal views. And it was also quite interesting that, um it was a AAA wide range of ages. It wasn't kind of young against old. It was. It was It was a wide group of people. Yeah, absolutely. And, um, and this it on some levels. This doesn't feel new to me. It feels to me like a little bit like some of the discussions [02:00:30] we had in the nineties and others were having in the eighties before I was out. Um, around kind of the, you know, the place of bisexual women and the lesbian community as an example. And, um and we we may have not got to the perfect place, but the heat of that's gone. Um, and, um and I just Yeah, I and it feels like actually we're in a much better space as a community in [02:01:00] terms of far more connected across our diversity than perhaps we have ever been, which I think is a great thing. And I, I just which is not what I was expecting to feel today. I feel as if I'm far more connected to the strengths of our community and wanting to focus on that than I am. Um, the descent. And I've certainly felt those strengths within the MFC. Um, there are quite a few new groups. Um, there was a a new [02:01:30] refugee and migrant group. Um, there was the Indian group that are that are here now, and, um and these have just formed in the last year. Yeah, absolutely. And seeing people with stickers around, you know, ending racism and that being part of our collective voice, I mean, that makes me so happy. It really does. And that we started this festival with which, through my mind and was just it felt to me [02:02:00] a a coming home for our community to a space that many of us have never experienced before and was deeply affirming. Yeah. So finally, how would you sum up today? What? What? What's the feeling? You take away connectedness and solidarity. And, um, and joy. Three words. Never been good at keeping [02:02:30] to instructions.

IRN: 3413
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089909
TITLE: Hikoi to Out in the City (2021)
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VOICES: Ahi Wi-Hongi; Elizabeth Kerekere; Hugh Young; James Shaw; Jan Logie; Levi Torrey; Michelle Dawes; Paddy Noble; Ricardo Menendez March; Roger Swanson; Ropata Maxwell; Sarah Arndt; Tabby Besley; Taine Polkinghorne; Tony Mackle; Tīwhanawhana; Vivian Lyngdoh
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 2020s; Ahi Wi-Hongi; Aotearoa New Zealand; Awaken Gathering (2021); Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Act 2021; COVID-19 (coronavirus); COVID-19 lockdown; Catholicism; Cross Agency Rainbow Network (CARN); Elizabeth Kerekere; Frank Kitts Park; Gisborne; He Tangata (performance); Hikoi to Out in the City; Homosexual Law Reform; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Hugh Young; InsideOUT Kōaro; James Shaw; Jan Logie; Jennifer Edwards; Levi Torrey; Lower Hutt; Member of Parliament; Michelle Dawes; Māori; Māori Wardens; Newlands Intermediate School (Wellington); Out in the City (Wellington); Paddy Noble; Palmerston North; Pride Parade (Wellington); Public Service Association (PSA); Ricardo Menendez March; Roger Swanson; Ropata Maxwell; Roxy Coervers; Sani Squad (COVID-19); Sarah Arndt; Tabby Besley; Taine Polkinghorne; The Glamaphones; Tony Mackle; Tīwhanawhana; Upper Hutt; Vivian Lyngdoh; Wellington; Wellington International Pride Parade (WIPP); Wellington Pride Festival (2021); Wellington Regional Hospital; accessibility; ancestors; church; conversion / reparative therapy; disability; disability rights; hand sanitiser; health care; housing crisis; human rights; hīkoi; indigenous peoples; interfaith; mental health; non-binary; people of colour; sign language; suicide; suicide prevention; takatāpui; trans; vaccination; visibility; whakawhanaungatanga; youth; youth ball
DATE: 27 March 2021
YEAR: 2021
LOCATION: Frank Kitts Park, 29 Jervois Quay (approx), Wellington
CONTEXT: Interviews with people on the hikoi to Out in the City, which was held on 27 March 2021. The hikoi is followed by the opening of Out in the City at the Michael Fowler Centre, Wellington.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Patty. And, um, we came from Gisborne and Palmerston. Yeah. So what I can see today is just people coming together and finding commonality with each other and, um, learning from each other and finding understanding with each other. Yeah. So have you been on one of the, um, the in in Wellington before? No. This is my first. Uh, no. This is my first ever. First ever. First [00:00:30] time coming to awaken conference. Yeah, I'm from Palmerston North. My name is Levi. Um, around me, I can see a lot of smiling beautiful faces, rainbows. Um, and people are a lot like me. It's great. And so you mentioned the awaken Conference. What? What What is that? Uh, it's a It's a gathering of, um a lot of denominations. Yeah, that's coming together just to be ourselves and get to know each other. But, [00:01:00] um, yeah, yeah. And so you you're here for the Awaken Conference as well. Yeah, that's right. Um, the waken conference is, um, they've invited different denominations and different churches. Who minister or who are interested who work with the and LGBT groups. Yeah. So, um, that was we were interested in the of this programme. So that's why we came down for this year, because [00:01:30] that's the type of ministry that we see ourselves working in and is that kind of interfaith conference for Rainbow Communities? Is this the first time it's happened in New Zealand, or has it happened before? It happens every year. It's the first time it's actually happened in Wellington. It's my first ever time coming, So I'm fresh fresh to the scene. But yeah, it happens every year. So can you describe the kind of atmosphere here today? Um, besides the rain and cold, it's Wellington. [00:02:00] Um I think, like for for me anyway, a little uncertainty because we don't know there are some people that we know that are coming, so we're hoping to see them. But from what we see now, there's some people we don't know, but happy to get to, To make, you know, get to know people. I can see a bit of activism going on here. I mean, Jesus was an activist and, yeah, so this whole year has been, uh, a covid year. We've we've just gone through the first year of the pandemic. [00:02:30] How How has covid been for you. For me personally, it hasn't really affected my life hugely, Uh, a lot like a lot of others. I can still go to work and still live my my daily life without it really affecting me. Yeah, I think, um, during the covid time, I think it's just increased that sense of isolation. Um, and like, to be able to be in an event like this is actually, you know, helped us to come out of that sense of isolation [00:03:00] because when we were in covid like, we kind of just had to stay in our own spaces and in our own homes. And to be able to come into a social gathering like this, um actually is quite a good feeling. Yeah, just to get out of, um, a sense of lockdown. Hey, even though we're not in it Hi, I'm Sid. I'm here for the PS A and for my work at the, um, Capital Coast DH [00:03:30] B. Hi, I'm Mock. I'm here as part of the glamour phones. And yeah, I think this is my first time on the on the so not really sure What it what it's about so far. I, I was quite amazed this. So I've just arrived at the and we're just sitting up now. And the first thing I see is the hand sanitizer squad. It's It's It's such a different year this year, isn't it? Yes, definitely different. And also, there's no international pride parade either this year, so, uh, yeah, I'm hoping it's a lot bigger. [00:04:00] The will be a lot bigger because of that. How has, um, the last year been for you for in terms of, like, covid well, working at the hospital, it's It's been pretty full on. Yeah. So, uh, yeah, we've been so busy, and then we were not busy over lockdown. Busy busy closing everything up and then back on to it all afterwards. Um and yeah, there had been lots of stress people phoning up and that sort of thing. Yeah. So it's It's [00:04:30] been an interesting year. Well, I've just finished. Uh, a Well, in 2019, I finished a degree, um, of of studies. So, um, yeah, my lifestyle didn't really change that much, but yeah, I do realise that many people's lives were disrupted by the event. Uh, we are in the middle of Wellington. Um, my name's Michelle Doors. Um, and I'm here with my family. Uh, just just to, uh, enjoy the day to [00:05:00] be visible out and proud. Um, join our awesome, uh, young youth people. Um, and hopefully not get too wet. Is is this the first you've been on? Uh, yes, it is. My first. Yeah, I've been to a couple of the I've been to a few of the parades I'm I'm on the board of, So I'm kind of here to help represent we and, yeah, get into the support the cause. So, yeah. Um, yeah, I've been to a couple of these before. Um, I [00:05:30] don't know if they've always been here. I think they've been just a little bit down, but yeah, no, um, this is about my third time, I think, third year. So what stands for the Wellington International Pride Parade? What's the difference between the parade and this this morning? Um, my interpretation is this is more of just a march and get together. Whereas the parade is, um, on a larger scale event with, you know, um, thousands of Spectators. So yeah, and And that it goes down the main street and kind of You know, it kind of does that [00:06:00] kind of thing. Yeah, it really is. Um, you know, a bunch of, um, New Zealand, uh, Corporates and, uh, people and Rainbow Networks And, uh, you know, all getting together to, um celebrate, uh, and show, um, you know, hopefully young people coming out and living in Wellington that, um, they can get jobs. Um, you know that, um, the the community is welcoming to them, Uh, that the government's trying really hard to [00:06:30] kind of move forward and do all of those things. Yeah, just a real celebration of where we have come, Uh, where we are and where we're going and what needs to be done because there's a lot of work to be done. Um, you know, But, um, hope hopefully, we can, um, move to a space where everyone's welcome and included. And, um, I think, um, you know, I was just at the, uh, conference the last two days. Uh, the amount of goodwill, um, from the government from everyone, um uh was pretty incredible to see, so [00:07:00] Yeah. No, we're here to just carry on that good work and be visible. Yeah. Now, the first thing that greeted me today was, um, some covid hand sanitizer people. And I just realised we're in 2021. How has covid been for both of you? I mean, it's it's been a It's going to be a stressful, stressful year this year, too. It's mentally it's been hideous to be fair. Um, but, you know, I'm really proud of how New Zealand's, um responded and, [00:07:30] um, and that we can be here today and do this. Yeah. Yeah. Covid was hard work, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it still is. Um II. I like the hand sanitizer. Guys, that was really cool. I thought for a minute I just thought, Oh, gee, that's a little over the top in it. But then I thought, No, it's good in spirits. It's actually really great. Um, so I got my hand sanitised this morning, so that was all right. Um yeah. Covid. Um, let's just hope we can move on soon and vaccinate. Vaccinate! Vaccinate! [00:08:00] Vaccinate, Vaccinate! Vaccinate! Hey, that's the next step, isn't it? Um, so we can all just kind of move forward. Um, but yeah. Um, the well, the Wellington pride got cancelled, Probably more, mainly because of covid. So, um, looking forward to next year's parade and, um, got a year to to get it right. And, uh, hopefully, uh, get everyone involved. That would be fabulous. Um, so that everybody can show, um, the diversity that's out there, uh, celebrate together. [00:08:30] Show that we're all in it together. Um, yeah. Hi. I'm Roger Swanson. Um, I'm secretary of the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand and a local Wellington and very happy to be out on the on the war front here waterfront. And we're just standing by, Frank. It's park, and, um, it has been raining this morning, but the the the rain's gone away and the the winds calm down, which is good. Yeah, supposed to be light light, um, southerly northerly winds and overcast as the forecast with [00:09:00] the odd shower in the morning, hopefully with the odd showers are gone. Now, today is, uh, Wellington's hikoi two out in the city this time and you're in the park. But we're in the park at the moment, going to the city, going to the Michael Fowler Centre. Um, can you describe for me the route that we're taking this year? No, idea it was towards Michael Fowler Centre. Whether it's along the waterfront or down the main street, I'm not sure, but I will follow whoever whoever [00:09:30] leads. So it It's kind of southwards here. I think so. Definitely southwards towards the Michael Fowler Centre. And we have have a welcome. When we get there. Can you describe, um, some of the people around us varied, very varied. Lots of young people with flags and rainbow flags And, um, yes, very, very happy crowd at the moment, very cheerful and chatting away, waiting for things to begin. And you've also got the, um, squad. I don't know what they are, but I'm sure they'll be very good. Whatever they do. I [00:10:00] I think they're doing hand sanitizer because it's our covid business, right? Yes. So we must We must pay attention. So we'll get our hands sanitised. Hopefully, that's all. That's all they gotta do, not spray us with stuff. And And this year Roger So leggins is actually, uh, walking in the are Indeed. We decided we needed to up our profile and to be there and be with the be with the groups, this community and so we've got a number of signs. We've got a home for your archives recording our voices, um, sharing our stories, [00:10:30] um, preserving our past, that one volunteer with us bringing our history to life, the headlines on each of our posters and then some items from the archive. And some are just our logo. And I see some of the images are from, uh, homosexual law Reform, which is the 35th anniversary this year. It is indeed, yes, the half time who just seemed like yesterday when we were marching down the street asking for our rights to be reinstated. What was that, like marching [00:11:00] down street in the in the mid eighties? Interesting. Something one, I hadn't done in a in A in a gay LGBT type way, but no, it was very empowering. Um, and it was fabulous to see the turnout was amazing. All ages, all families, everybody heaps of banners, heaps of, um, really energy, good energy. And you feel you're on the right side of history of that? You really did. I I was gonna say was was there much opposition to those street marches? Not really, No. There were lots of people along the side clapping and cheering. [00:11:30] And it was the odd one because I had to sign, um, Catholics, Catholics for law reform and yo, that, not me. It's like, you know, it's obviously push the button there, but it's OK. We knew he was in the minority, so that's fine. And, uh, this afternoon or or after the you, you're actually gonna be in a in a stall at the Michael Fall Centre. The end. Have a stall up on the second floor. I'm told it's number 27 wherever number 27 is. So, um, we got somebody there at [00:12:00] the moment setting up. And, um so, yes, we'll have a stall there with with some books for sale. Um, some of our new publications. And, uh, just if you want to find out about the archive and how you can assist us preserving our history, then it's a good place to come and talk to us. And the greens are always here because actually, we diversity is key to who we are in terms of a green perspective on the world. And there's so much about our daily lives that tries to stifle [00:12:30] that, and we've got to take these moments to release it and celebrate it. Kilda. Elizabeth, Uh, this is my community. I lived here for 20 years, and I've been part of all the activism, all of the fun, all of the craziness that our community embodies. And it's an opportunity, particularly for our young people to get out there, feel safe, feel like they belong and be proud to be part of our wider communities. James Shaw as the child of lesbian parents, uh, to me, it's quite personal that we, [00:13:00] uh, take these moments to, um, you know, continue to celebrate the diverse communities that make up this country. Ricardo Menendez. I think it's more important than ever to stand in solidarity with our trans non-binary and intersex communities right now, Um, because there's a long way to go to ensure that everybody has access to their rights. So we have two new members of Parliament here. How has it been in the first couple of months? Oh, there's a lot of work to do, and [00:13:30] I think what's really clear is that the greens have been a really, really strong voice on things like banning conversion therapy by Elizabeth's petition as well as, um, fighting for access to health care. Yes. And, uh, I was speaking at the conference, the cross agency Rainbow Network that was held at Parliament this week and just saying it's great that we're getting conversion therapy. It's great that we've got the and marriages and and relationship registrations. Uh, bill are being looked [00:14:00] at, uh, hopefully also my Human Rights amendment, but it's gonna be a rough, rough year for our trans intersex and non binary. All of the ugliness is gonna come out. So we, as our people us as MP S need to make sure that we're strongly strongly in solidarity because it's it's gonna be tough. This last year has also been really tough with covid. Um, for for everyone. What is your hope for this year? What? What what would you hope for? Well, I remember meeting, [00:14:30] um, with members of our communities, um, straight after the first lockdown, um, and the cross parliamentary group and I was really inspired by the work that they've been doing through the lockdown in terms of young people reaching out to young people, um, members of actually connecting to and making sure and others, um, from the disability community, making sure that actually our disabled needs full needs were being met. [00:15:00] And I really want to see as well as us holding the legislative change and pushing that that actually we're providing the support for that work to be done, which is what holds us together and builds strong community and all of our diversity. And, um, there's a lot to be done. But there's such amazing work happening. Yeah, I. I actually hope that, uh, actually, it doesn't turn into a toxic mess, Um, and that we're able to kind of engage [00:15:30] in, um, like the best aspects of nonviolent dialogue and and really try and work through it in a in a manner that gets the resolution that we want to get to without it sort of degenerating any further into, um, kind of hardened positions. I think the lockdown just showed that it's still not safe for many members of our communities to be in a bubble, whether it's family or peers. And so my hope for this year is that we continue fighting for housing that reflects the needs of our communities, knowing that our rainbow community is still very much [00:16:00] disproportionately affected by the housing crisis. Yeah. So hopes for this year that I'd like to see our youth suicide numbers going down. I'd like to see our people taking advantage of increased funding for mental health and making sure that money goes to where it's actually needed And who people are doing actual work. Uh, I want people to feel pride and being who they are and feel safe to be that outside of our events and outside of these festivals [00:16:30] and marches that in their homes and their places of worship in their communities that we can all be who we are. Um, I'm Miya, and I'm here at the Human Rights Commission, um, to take part today. Yeah. My name is Tane Polkinghorn here with the Human Rights Commission as well to enjoy the pride and celebrate our diversity. Can you just paint a picture of of what we can see in front of us? Absolutely. There is a lot of colour diversity. Um, amazing hairstyles. There is glitter. [00:17:00] There are rainbow laces. There are flags, placards, um, all sorts of amazing things. And I can't wait to see it walk through the streets of central Wellington. It makes me feel like I'm part of something bigger than me. The most powerful experience on the planet that I have had is knowing that there are other people just like me, and so as, um, as a member of Rainbow Communities as an out trans man. It's amazing to see this. I didn't have access to this kind of stuff when I was coming out [00:17:30] sort of 10 years ago. And, um, yeah, being able to be in touch with my elders and people coming behind me as well is just a really special feeling. Um, yeah, it's just an amazing sense of community. I think I've actually never been able to be a part of something like this, either, because back home I wasn't really out. And being here is just really cool to be obviously working for the Human Rights Commission. They're super accepting. But then seeing a larger community, um, and just people saying kind comments to me on the way here [00:18:00] in my like Rainbow gear, I'm like, Oh, thank you. It's just nice. It's really nice. I mean, we to be able to do this in person and not have a virtual pride. It's kind of blows my mind and my friends across the world are so jealous of what we've got here in a because it's it's so special. There's something that you can only feel by being here in person. I'm young and I go way back. I was involved in homosexual law reform, and [00:18:30] it's wonderful to see all these, um, varied people in rainbow colours. And, um, what strikes me, of course, is that they're all so young and so, um, open and happy. Um, it's just such a contrast from, um, back before law reform back, back in my childhood the, um lacking, you know, all the fear that was that's the overwhelming thing from the past that the the that the terror [00:19:00] we lived in that that, um even if you if you weren't, you know, caught red handed somebody might accuse you out of the blue, and you had to be somehow. And, um, you know, what did you do when it was a crime and when you could lose your job or your home? But no, no, this crowd is just lovely. It's, um I love I love being among them and, uh, you know, just enjoying the unity. [00:19:30] How many people do you think are here today? Hundreds, maybe 1000. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, you know, to see a sign like over there from the greens. You know, I sort of that I first encountered that word when I was studying Maori in 1969. And, um, when it meant intimate companion of the same sex And then in the story of and [00:20:00] and, um, now look at it. I'm Vivian Chair and festival director for Pride. We're in Wellington Franks Park. Um, about to begin the youth led community led How How many people are here today? Oh, my God. I'm not too sure. Hopefully about 1000 people. It seems like quite a bit. So I'm very, very excited for people to turn up even though the rain blessed us this morning. But Sunny now. So very happy. Kyoto, Everyone [00:20:30] more happy Pride, everyone. Oh, that's too soft. Make it louder, please. Happy pride. Thank you so much for coming. I'm Vivian, um, chair and festival director for Wellington Pride. This year, we've got the committee here. We've got gecko. Some of you might know who's leading a youth. Um, we've got Sarah. And we've got Catherine. Not too sure who the rest of my committee is. Well, we've got Shash. Thank you so much for helping us [00:21:00] this year and their team with New Zealand sign language as we become more accessible for our people. Um, so safety briefing to begin with that first. So, um, Tabby will lead to Tabby and inside out youth led will be at the back over there, leading from Frank. It's park off to the waterfront and on to the Michael Fall Centre. Um, there will be a traffic light stop. So there'll be a bit of pause and hold in there. So just sure that you listen to and follow the direction of the Maori wardens, the glamour phones and [00:21:30] the committee just for safety. If there is any protest today, which I do anticipate might happen. So just for your own safety, do not approach them. Please. The wardens are here. The security is here, and we will We will be with them. Sorry. Um, but that is pretty much it around. Security, we'll start, will welcome us at 11 a. m. at the centre. Um and then out in the city will begin at 12. So thank you so much for coming. And [00:22:00] for today I would just like to thank the committee for the entire year for working so hard for pride. So give them a round of applause, please. Thank you so much. Um, to the opening show. That was amazing if you were there. So give a shout out to Jaden and Paris and crew for cementing pride for blessing pride with Maori and bringing a blessing into pride. So give a shout out to the hit [00:22:30] to the biggest private youth board. Yet led by Gecko, there was 450 people queer young people that turned up at Victoria University celebrating the queerness celebrating being beautiful. That was stunning. Can you still hear me? Cool. Sorry. So give a shout out to Geo as well. I would just like to say to the people who are against us today, remember that I am brown, queer [00:23:00] and vicious Non-binary and I finally have a seat on this table. And by that I had a seat on the table. You better watch your back, bitch. Yeah. So protect our trans people. Our non indigenous folk are queer people protect each other, please. And thank you so much. Welcome to pride. And if you have any questions, if you have any comments, make sure to follow us. Make sure to, um just, um, keep us updated with that. Thank you so much. So let's begin the [00:23:30] happy pride, everyone, Uh, today we have, uh, the last day of the Wellington Pride Festival, Uh, beginning with a bit of a march along the waterfront, Um, to our final event called out in the city at the Michael Fowler Centre. So the is being led by the youth. Um, and they're gonna lead us down the waterfront to the Michael Fowler Centre. How many people are here today? I've got absolutely [00:24:00] no idea. I don't know how to kill people. We estimated maybe 500 to 1000 but I really don't know. And it's so colourful and diverse. It is. Indeed. Our city is colourful and diverse. Our community is colourful and diverse. Is this the first? Um, you've marched in? No, not at all. No. Um we've been doing this every year for a while now. As far as I'm aware, I, I think I marched in the first one that was ever held quite a few years ago. And what was the feeling like? [00:24:30] It's just really heartwarming, I think, Um, especially with, uh, the the kids. Um, leading the It's a beautiful thing was a job. Don't assume your kids astray. 1234. OK, 567 minutes. Don't assume your kids as straight. 1234 Open up the closet door. 567 minutes. Don't assume your kids are straight. [00:25:00] What the hell? Oh, when you when you see this? Uh, Tony. What? What? What do you think? How do you feel? I feel very good about it. And, um, it's great that so many people have come together and, um, are taking part in it. Could you have imagined something like this 30 or 40 years ago? Uh, not at all. No. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. It would just wouldn't have happened. [00:25:30] Uh, the biggest march that I took part in was in 1986. When for law reform. There were a couple of marches along Lampton. Um, but they weren't at all like this. We're just [00:26:00] on the pride. We've just arrived outside the Michael Fowler Centre. Just a lot of people crossing the road. So we're just waiting for them to catch up with us, I guess. And we've got the, um is led by a beautiful group, a big group of from around the region. I know we've got young people here from the hut and car as well as Wellington. Um, we've got some great signs saying we want safe schools for rainbow. Yeah. So it's a beautiful turn out. It must be so inspiring for you, having [00:26:30] spent so many years kind of working for, um, safety in schools for for rainbow people. Yeah. Yeah. It is actually the group who are holding the inside out banner at the very front of the parade. Um, I believe they're mostly students from, um, Newlands Intermediate, who is currently supporting to start a rainbow diversity group. So the fact that, um, these intermediate students can, um, start that group in their school and be out here, Um, leading the pride. He is just beautiful. I'm a I'm the national coordinator at gender minorities. [00:27:00] Um, it's such an amazing turnout today. I think it's probably twice as big as it was last year. There are so many people here. Uh, it's amazing seeing like, all the youth at the front carrying the inside out banner, Um, in the intersex trust, it has done amazingly. Um, you know, there's, like, so many people with great signs and flags and just looking really bright and colourful and happy. It feels, you know, it feels beautiful when you see so so many people and so many young people. Um, how how does that make you feel Really proud? [00:27:30] Yeah, genuinely. I think it's, um it's amazing. It's so powerful to see everybody coming together. And you know, just being who they are. Yeah. Can you describe some of the the flags and signs we see? Um, yeah, I can see a a sign. Um, from the greens, I can see bodily integrity for life. There are, um, intersex pride, and, um and I can see safe schools for rainbow. There's like, um, [00:28:00] yeah, there are heaps of I can see the flag and, uh, heaps. All the all the different rainbow flags. This year has been pretty hard in terms of the the covid global pandemic. How has how has covid affected? Um, the work of gender minorities. I think people are having a really hard time. There's a lot more. I think I think all the kinds of social, you know, the kind of societal issues that are happening, like housing and healthcare and that they're all just kind [00:28:30] of exacerbated. Yeah. So I think, people. Yeah, there's a lot of struggle happening, and lots of people have lost their source of income and things like that. So, um, I think it's having a real impact on people's mental health and ability to connect to others in the community and things. So I think things like this really important to, you know, to remind people that Hey, you know, we're still a community. We're still all here, and we're still fighting the good fight. What is your hope for this year, then? Um, [00:29:00] a complete overhaul of the health care and housing systems. Yeah, just by next week would be good. Oh, go up to the second floor of the Michael ball. Let's it. [00:29:30] OK, go. No go. Maybe I and I Hey, Tony here. Yeah. Fuck. [00:30:00] Hello. [00:30:30] Oh, [00:31:00] [00:31:30] to, [00:32:00] um, they have played Oh, my God. Yeah. [00:32:30] Now he didn't go right. Pretty Me. [00:33:00] Oh, [00:33:30] yeah. Go. Yeah. Spoil Yeah. [00:34:00] Were [00:34:30] in my Oh, really? [00:35:00] [00:35:30] Well, the what? I thought I thought it was [00:36:00] [00:36:30] [00:37:00] [00:37:30] [00:38:00] on the radar. No. 17. [00:38:30] [00:39:00] [00:39:30] Oh. [00:40:00] Oh, around me. [00:40:30] No. See you dot com. I would just like to thank. You know, UET for a time I thought I speak. I'm quite overwhelmed at the moment. Um, so, So much hard work over the past. Sorry. So much hard work with [00:41:00] And, um, so much difficult conversations, um, to have had as one of the only brown indigenous. And I keep on saying it because it is difficult to have these tough conversations with institutions that might not like us. Um, but leadership is key, and that's how we challenge them. Um, and I bring my aunties, my ancestors, uh, my friends, my family with me when I come to the stage. So thank you so much for turning out today. [00:41:30] Yeah, I like to thank Um um, for working so hard, Um, you know, for having one of the flagship event hit with the leadership of ja and Paris. Um, thank you for blessing us with that, um, performance, um, at the opera house, um, To showcase indigenous power and indigenous strength in a society [00:42:00] that that might not be welcoming to many of us. Um, so thank you for blessing us, Jan, with your gift and to To to Wellington and to New Zealand. Um, I would like to thank all of you for turning up today, um, for showing up at 10 o'clock in the morning. I'm sorry I tried to push the 11, but my committee did not allow that, but yeah, we all turned out. So thank you so much for that. Um, the the rain blessed us this morning as the rain will show. And, um, the sky is cleared. [00:42:30] So that's the ancestors blessing all of us. So thank you so much to our ancestors for blessing us, Um, to all the stallholder tonight. Tonight, um, to all the stakeholders. Thank you so much for participating. Um, this is the first time you've brought out in the past to become part of the city. And so the reason is because, um, we wanted to make a wheelchair accessible. Sometimes our society is so ableist and to think of our most marginalised, we should put them in the forefront of our thinking all the time [00:43:00] and get to the New Zealand sign language again. Accessibility is key, and we're going to keep on building on that, um, as we go on further the pride on the legacy of Roxy from the past, it was just over there. So thank you so much. Roxy for Yeah, um, thank you for your support, as always. Um, thank you for letting me come to you as my elders, um, for [00:43:30] advice and guidance. So thank you so much for guiding me. Um, I might be loud and all of that, but you you really put so much support, um, to me to guide me to show me that I am doing good work. So thank you so much for that. Um, yeah. Happy pride everywhere. I think that's pretty much it. Thank you so much for turning up today. Um, yeah. So all the people who have the event. Thank you. Thank you. We'll keep on building pride next year. Any any feedback that come to me as we begin to listen more to our marginalised, marginalised communities [00:44:00] and we've got more platforms for them. Thank you for yourself. I can hear die. I [00:44:30] in the kingdom. Oh, Denmark. You love him. [00:45:00] again. My I can. Yeah. Bye. Found it. Pity hard. [00:45:30] Yeah, me. No, on. [00:46:00] Fuck, yeah, [00:46:30] Yeah, he out of [00:47:00] Hi. The family family. Um, I'm Ken. Uh, I come from a little town called Do you guys know it? And, um, I moved there in about 2012 with my father, and we relocated from this place called Gisborne. Uh, do you know where Gisborne is? You fellas, um so And ladies and gentlemen, and those lovely people [00:47:30] in between, I don't have my I have, um some of my languages can sometimes be, uh, uh, mentor. So, like, I'm challenging myself to, uh, not, uh, misgender people just through the normal day to day language that I speak. But also, I'm worried from that, but so I'm used to sort of, you know, just delving in the dangerous voices every so often. Sorry, I'm not quite prepared today. Um, I like to go with spontaneity, as many of our beautiful people in our community do. Um however, this fellow [00:48:00] was up late last night going Oh, OK, let's try to go to talk tomorrow. What are you talking about? And I've had nearly a week to prepare and I just left it all last minute. So what I'm gonna talk to you guys about today is a little bit of my journey, Um, here to, um, Wellington, this big, huge apple of our country. And where I come from, uh, homosexuality, Uh, ge a non-binary, uh, transgender wasn't really talked [00:48:30] about. And it's it's quite common across for all of the country that that had happened in certain pockets in certain places in our communities. But where I came from, there was this massive stereotype that you had to be a hunter, a gatherer. Represent your father on the play. Play your life was what, um, your assigned gender told you to be, and I thought that was cool. But while I was over here doing with the boys, I was looking over there looking at the girls, doing all the and all the lovely, and I wanted to take a trip over there, but I [00:49:00] was held back, um, until I met my grandparents. And, um, my grandparents were actually the first people to allow me to flourish into this great, beautiful beast before you today. And they taught me patience. They taught me understanding. They taught me to let my light shine, no matter what colour it may be. No matter, no matter where you may go, just always remember that if you've got your or your ancestors with you, [00:49:30] they'll help you in every single space and place that you come upon. And so when we took the plunge to move to Wellington, I was like, I don't know anybody there. Do the people even know, like about our people because, you know, living in a small town, I thought all the Maori are here. So moving to Wellington every single Maori person that I met from the first day till about three months down the track, every single Maori person was allowed to put where I'm proud to put my, um So I left home, went through a transition [00:50:00] and found home again. And the community that is a part of upper heart that is a part of lower heart that is part of the greater Wellington region. And I stand here proudly before you. Um, as 10 years ago, I was this quiet, bookish person would never allow my life to shine unless somebody hurt me. Um And so through that shame or through that, the fear of shame or the fear of other people's opinions weighing on my, um, standing in this world and my which I am proud to say that I can step into because it's every [00:50:30] single one of us has a in front of us Our ancestors are gently nudging us from behind saying Go test those boundaries, feed the fridge, fill the gap. And so I stand here as a proud Maori 24 year old since 25 male and I stand proud. Um, um, I have I I'm a I'm a collection of [00:51:00] I'm a collector of wisdom and of and of kindness, and I like to spread wherever I go And so one form of spreading is to share or which are proverbial sayings from, um our people that have to guide us and walk in this world and allow us to explore to the beauty of metaphor and words. So I have two. The first is from my one of my ancestors. Uh, his name was he was a Maori member of Parliament back in the day when that wasn't so popular, [00:51:30] and he was a person who represented not only my but our people in a and his say was What that means is, uh, go forth and prosper, prosper pro Go forth [00:52:00] and prosper in the world before you with your hands to the tools of the to cover a pathway for your body but with your heart to the teachings and the knowledge and the of your ancestors to wear with pride upon your ground and your heart and your soul to the person. Whoever your soul derives from who you believe you, you get your soul from or that your soul connects to. For they are the things that have allowed you to be in this space, and they have created these opportunities for you to take part in. So that was my interpretation of that one thing. And then [00:52:30] the last one is very short, very small, Um, which means we've come too far to not go further. And we've done too much to not do more. Bye, Council Councillor. [00:53:00] Hi, It's me again. Thank you so much. Cameron Cameron stepped up late last minute just to give me a call and like, Hey, how can we work together? Let's join the cities together from upper Heart to Wellington to low heart. We're gonna join the next step right next year. We're looking forward to that. Um, so thank you so much, Cameron. Um, so leave the land today we've got all the stores, so feel free to visit all the stores purchase support our our people. Um, and also, there's gonna be entertainment [00:53:30] the entire time from 12 o'clock. Um, and we've got two lovely M CS today, So these two beautiful people, we will be meeting today, So I'll this is the last thing you've heard. Hopefully, um, but I'll pass it on to the two of you. OK? Happy pride. Yeah.

IRN: 3415
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/mia_farlane.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004613
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089907
TITLE: Mia Farlane
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Carole Hicks; Mia Farlane
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Are You Ok? (Mia Farlane); Carole Hicks; Crossed Wires (book); Dorothy Parker; Ellen Faed; Enough Rope (book); Footnotes to Sex (book); Hannah Gadsby; Lesbian Information, Library and Archives Centre (LILAC); London; Marilyn Duckworth; Mia Farlane; Nanette (tv); Parallel Hell (book); Paris; Samaritans; United Kingdom; Wellington; Why Suicide? (book); Youth'12 survey; anxiety; bitcoin; books; counselling; death; depression; homosexual law reform; internet; lesbian; pornography; queer; relationships; suicidal obsession; suicide; suicide obsessed; suicide prevention; telephone support; writing
DATE: 25 March 2021
YEAR: 2021
LOCATION: Lesbian Information, Library and Archives Centre (LILAC), Second floor, 187 Willis Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Author Mia Farlane reads from, and discusses Parallel Hell. Mia is introduced by Carole Hicks. After the readings there are questions from the group. A special thank you to Mia and LILAC for allowing this event to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Greetings and welcome everyone to, um, this special event, um, held here in the Lilac Lounge, which is part of our contribution to pride time. Um, it seems to be changing its a length of time, so I'll just call it pride Time, and we [00:00:30] will work it out from there. We will be doing other things, such as next Tuesday. We have the, um, card game set of card games here. And also, of course, um, we will have the, um, stall in the Michael Fowler Centre at the later time. So those are our contributions to to pride and thank you all for coming and being part of that later, I'll talk to you about the raffle, [00:01:00] but not now. Right now, I'd like to introduce our very famous guest, Mia, who will talk to you about what she's done and where she's been. And however else you want to describe it, OK, Thank you, Mia. Thank you, Carol. Thanks, everyone. So, um, thank you, Carol. And thank you, Ellen, for inviting me to to speak here at Lilac Library. A very precious [00:01:30] space and, uh, as part of, um um um my name is Mia and I'm a novelist, and I've written three novels. I'm going to be reading an extract from the last, the latest novel that I've written. Um, So, um, the title of this evening is Are you OK? [00:02:00] Um and that is because, um, while I was doing research for this novel, I was asked that question quite a few times. Are you OK? Um, so, uh, it's going to last for half an hour or a bit less, and I'll be reading a couple of extracts. The first one is about seven minutes, and the next one is half as long. And in between, I'll be, uh, speaking a little bit about how I my my writing process, my, [00:02:30] my, my experience of writing the book. So, um, I've brought along, um, I know that Lilac Library has a copy already, but I So I've brought along the, um, Viking edition of my first novel, Footnotes to Sex. And this is the, um, penguin edition that came out, um, a bit later. Um, footnotes to sex is about, um, if you haven't read it, um, not knowing [00:03:00] what you want to do with your life and idolising someone who does know what she wants to do with her life. It's set in London and Paris. It's a tragic comedy about a, uh, couple in a long term relationship that's going through a tricky patch. Um, partly because one of the women in this, um, couple, um of this couple is so very busy trying to write a PhD on a woman she idolises. So that's footnotes to sex. And, [00:03:30] um, the British broadcaster journalist, um, said something very lovely about it. Um, which I'm going to mention because it does, uh, link in with the, uh, reading I'm going to do this evening. Uh, she says that it is. Seinfeld meets Dorothy Parker over a late night hot drink. And I was so happy when she said that, um, I, uh, Dorothy Parker, Um, I love her writing. Um and, um, it's [00:04:00] but it's also quite apt that she said it just for the If you just think of the themes because my first novel, Footnotes to Sex, is about a flailing relationship, and it's about academic unfulfillment. So it's about people struggling. And Dorothy Parker wrote about people who were struggling. Um, then, um, that said this about my first book was interesting for me because then in my second novel that I've written, um, I'm calling it crossed wires. [00:04:30] And it's about the phenomenon within families of a pariah, a persona non grata, Um, something that really interests me. And it's also a South London parody of chick lit. Um, so it's, um it's again. It's about failed, uh, failed intimacies, which is a sub subject that Dorothy Parker wrote about now. Um, the last. The most recent novel I've written is [00:05:00] called Parallel Hell, and it's about suicide. So, um, here it's even more like Dorothy Parker because Dorothy Parker wrote a lot about suicide. Um, and she, in fact, her first poetry collection is called enough rope. And, um, she wrote, um Oh, actually, see if I can find it? Yeah, the extract. So Dorothy Parker's humour She used it like a razor to slash at things. Um, [00:05:30] and she writes about the pain of being human. So, um, she wrote about suicide. This, um, inside that poetry collection called Enough rope. There's a poem called Resume and the last line is something like, I'm probably going to misquote it, but you may as well live because she lists all the awful things that you could the ways you could try and they're all painful and they're all awful. You may as well live. That's what she says. So I'm now going to read the [00:06:00] first of the two extracts, um, from Parallel Hell. And the only thing you need to know is that it is contemporary, and it's about a suicide obsessed Londoner. MIA READS THE FIRST EXTRACT NOT INCLUDED IN THIS AI TEXT. [00:14:30] So I'm writing Parallel Hell, for me was a really potent experience a very nothing like the first two books, obviously for three reasons. Um, the first one, the subject. So it's about suicide, and it's not only about suicide, it's about the, um, that that point where someone is both suicide, obsessed and bereaved by suicide. So it's a really potent subject to be writing about. And it meant that I had felt a great [00:15:00] sense of freedom writing the book because the subject just took up too much space. It just took up all the space. So I just wrote it. Um, also, um, I just could make an assumption here, perhaps that some of you at least, will have seen live or on Netflix or or perhaps live if you're lucky. I haven't, But, um Hannah Gatsby's Nanette, Um uh, I don't know whether any of you have, but I absolutely loved that show. I've seen it more than [00:15:30] once. And, um, I really related strongly to what she was doing with the humour there. So she was flipping it, subverting it, subverting, uh, using subverted humour about something very serious. So, um, that's the first of the reasons the subject. So there are two other reasons why it was such a, um a such a powerful experience writing this book. And that is where it was set because halfway through, um, writing parallel Hell, I, [00:16:00] um, was able to lucky me, uh, take one year's unpaid leave from my job at South Bank Centre's National Poetry Library. And that was in 2019. And I, um I came here to to Wellington with my partner, um, and because I was living in Wellington and, um I was, um I then made the decision, of course, to have my suicide obsessed [00:16:30] Londoner relocate to her hometown. Um, and, um so that was also it was the first time I'd ever had a character who was born in a in New Zealand, so that was interesting in itself, but then have her move to her hometown. And this is someone who is suicide obsessed. So, um, it's one thing to be in that frame of mind in a huge city and a huge anonymous city which remains anonymous, whether [00:17:00] or not you've been living there for decades, as she had and as I have also, um, and then it's so very different for her to move to her to a small town. But it's also her hometown. Um, and so there are, um, possibilities, which I had, um, for interesting interactions, Um, that she might bump into people from her past. Um, possibly family members, you know that. So there's things that were able to happen there. Um, so that is the other reason. Yeah, So, I mean, I've [00:17:30] got friends in London who, um, like me visit family in their hometown and not necessarily obviously all different places. So someone in north of Scotland is a small place and, you know, have talked to me about what it's like to the challenges of being in that situation, having been in a big city. Um, so that's one thing. Um, and the last reason why, um, it was such a potent experience for me is the way I wrote it, the way I happened to write it. So, um, [00:18:00] when I was here, um, 1019 I got a creative New Zealand grant, and that meant that I was allowed to spend for the first time all my time on the book. Um, so I didn't have a part time job I did to begin with. But then I got the grant. And so I spent a lot of time with my main character, and we wandered around Wellington together. She and I, um, as we had in London, and I do use that expression because that's part of my writing method for this book. So it was as [00:18:30] if I sort of wandered around with her and partly as her. So, um, I took her to, um, everything to do with suicide of course because she was suicide obsessed. So I went to, um, a suicide awareness march, or we went there together. Um, I went to, um, an exhibition on self harm and suicide, Um, as her almost, um, and I, um, and I went to the Wellington public library when it was still open. The big one, [00:19:00] and took out all of the books on suicide. Pretty much, um, uh, that I could find and, uh, for her and, um, also to book to a bookshop for several bookshops. And I write about my experience of doing this in a piece called Are You OK? A writing event. I'm soon going to read. Not that piece, but a different one. but So I went to a bookshop to get books on suicide partly for research, for myself and partly as my main [00:19:30] character, who was going into a bookshop because she wanted to read everything about it and the reaction I had from the people in the bookshop I put into the novel. And, um, I write about that experience in a piece called Are UK Writing Event. That's in Moxie magazine, which I've read out, by the way, if you'd like to hear it read out on, um, Wellington access radio quilted bananas. Um, on the 24th of, um, I was invited to talk then. So, um, I'm now going to read the second, [00:20:00] um, extract, um, which is half as long as the first one. And this one is set here in this country. MIA READS THE SECOND EXTRACT NOT INCLUDED IN THIS AI TEXT [00:29:00] Thank you. And, um So, um, so that was the second, um, part from the second part of, uh, parallel. Hell, um, I, uh, don't have a publication date. Someone's already asked me about that. I wish I did. But when I do, I'll be announcing it on my blog. Non French writers. So if you, um, subscribe to the newsletter, you'd get a newsletter once a month. And within that newsletter, I hope that you will eventually [00:29:30] have an email with me announcing not just videos that I occasionally do or my monthly review. Um, but, uh, that the book has a publication date and then um, anyone who's on the newsletter at that point will, um, will, uh, go into a draw to, um, receive a signed copy in the post. Um, thank you very much for coming here to listen to this. And I would love to have, um, any questions if you do have any. [00:30:00] Yeah. My I I'm getting in first. Um, interesting that you came back to to write something about suicide, given the astronomically dreadful high rate of suicides in this country. Uh, it it's not. It's not linked. It just happens to be [00:30:30] It just happens to be, as you say, True. And, um yeah, just want to come home for a year. No, it was for family reasons. My partner, um, had family reasons, So we came back for that reason, so it Yeah, those conversations sound so believable. Did you ring up and see what they say? Um, I've got, uh, a couple of friends in London. So these are London based who work for the We're not work volunteers for the Samaritans. So I've [00:31:00] asked them How do you generally take questions? They were general questions. I asked them about training, and, um so yeah. Oh, sorry. Yeah. Uh, yes, My mother? Yes. Um, so she had a sneak preview of this evening? Um, I I, um I printed it off because I'm staying at her at the moment, so Yeah, So she Yeah, she hasn't read the book, but she's read this section, [00:31:30] I think, or part of it is New Zealand's major. What does your mother think of this? Well, um, she, um, hasn't read it yet, so, um, she's been complimentary about the little bits that she has read, which is great. Yeah. Why? Why? So why Why did you Yeah, that's that's a good question. Well, I, I [00:32:00] suppose you No. You know, um and it's interesting that the, you know, said that about Dorothy Parker because I didn't know when she said that that I was going to then write about suicide. But, um, I write about what I'm obsessed about, and and, um, and which is what a lot of writers do. This is fiction, but it's I always take a a subject that I'm obsessed about. And, um, Yeah, unfortunately, it's a subject that I became obsessed about. Why, Why? Well, um I think probably the obsession. [00:32:30] Um, I think you have to be obsessed. I'm not sure whether I'm understanding the question, but you have to be obsessed in order to write a book because you're going to be spending at least a year on it or two or even longer. So I do have to be obsessed. Um, uh, yeah. Did trigger it. Um well, did something trigger it? Uh, I think, Yeah, something took of that. Well, you can't really arrive at my age [00:33:00] without knowing people who have been going through those experiences, or, you know, um, have, um, ended their life by suicide or have been, um, uh, having ideas about around suicide. I mean, I even in my teens, I knew people. Yeah, but there's a difference between being suicide obsessed and suicidal. Yes. And do do you think that actually, your [00:33:30] characters, uh, or your character is more suicide obsessed or suicidal? Because, I mean, these sort of phone calls, if someone was really suicidal, could be absolutely catastrophic. Uh, so, um, it's really for the reader to decide what they think as they read the book. Because I'm only giving you tiny things Tiny extracts from the novel. So, um, [00:34:00] she's definitely suicide obsessed. For the rest, you'd have to read the novel to to come to your own conclusion. Yeah. What is your relationship with the character now? Um, if you fare well, um, yeah, and the the novel's finished. So I I have, um I have farewelled her. And in that sense, yeah, I'm not, um I'm not living it. [00:34:30] Yeah, I think that you have. You dealt with the suicide, your own suicide obsession it's finished with Now that you finished the novel, my obsession with suicide, um, on the subject. My my obsession with the subject has not finished. I I'm I'm I'm interested in the subject forever. I read a lot of interesting books, actually, um, about it, um, David Van. I don't know [00:35:00] whether you've read, um, his his, um, writing. Um, but on the moon, which was shortlisted for the, um uh, and and nonfiction. Um, Why? Suicide is a really beautiful, um, short book really helpful by a man whose father ended his life. And, um, he's put out a second edition quite recently, which he he changed where he changed it. Um, yes. I've read some books that I really didn't like I didn't like their tone. [00:35:30] I didn't like their take and other books that I really did. Like, um, I found helpful and useful and interesting, but yeah, I'm not I'm not I'm not an academic, you know, I'm Yeah. And neither is my main character. So, um, I've got another question. If I'm allowed more than one How, um, something that I notice a lot these days that I didn't notice when I was young as as a student is that there's a lot of, um, talk about the high rates of, [00:36:00] uh, what gets called suicidality amongst the LGBT youth and that it's this massive thing that you know, and I'm I'm kind of wondering, Do you have any sort of insights into that or views on that? Because I don't recall that being such a big thing when I was young, I don't remember. You know, it's It's almost as if nowadays, if you're you know, a lesbian, for example, you're supposedly going to have this kind of innate likelihood of being a suicide. [00:36:30] Yeah. Um, did you come across anything like that? And what? I, um, one example and it isn't comes up in the novel um, there's a novelist called, uh, Taiwanese novelist, uh, who died by suicide in the 19 nineties in Paris. And, um, I have mixed feelings about the work, actually, that there. But, um but, uh, so she, uh, was a lesbian, and she went to a school with some girls who were [00:37:00] filmed by someone who went into a lesbian nightclub and filmed them without their knowing it. And, um and that contributed, and I wouldn't say lead to because it's always complex, but contributed anything. That's a hard experience, I suppose. Um, so, um, people treating you badly for because of who you are, um, any reasons that make life more more difficult? Um, but if I could just comment from that, um, 20 [00:37:30] odd years ago or thereabouts and certainly prior to that time, um, suicide was a banned topic. People weren't allowed to write about it in newspapers, talk about it on radio or TV. No, absolutely not. But it was It was absolutely lid tightly on and wrapped [00:38:00] up in a big bundle sort of thing, whereas and then being a lesbian or gay guy or whatever other you know, combinations, one might feel, um, that was also fairly much not spoken about either, you know? And so we had, you know, law Reform. And we had lots more activity around queer rights and so on and so forth. And [00:38:30] still we have the very high suicide rate. It's not that it wasn't necessarily similar back then. It was just that we never got to hear about it. I think so, Yes. Because I wonder about that because what gets reported, I know we're getting a better way of subject and particularly because these things are said about our community these days, and I kind of wonder, you know, they they talk about, um [00:39:00] I think there's a survey called Youth 12 or something that says that you know, LGBT youth, um, have elevated rates of thinking about suicide. So I kind of think Do do we actually have elevated rates of actual suicide? I don't know. Or do we just have young people who say, Oh, I feel so terrible? I think about killing myself. I looked into that question a bit here actually before coming tonight, because I thought, Oh, I really need to be a bit more aware. I mean, I I've been reading a lot [00:39:30] about it, but, um, I couldn't find myself find a clear answer to to, um to that. There are statistics, you know, that there are, you know, uh, what is it? Three. This is why I'm really not good at statistics. That won't help but sort of for every one woman who ends her life. And, uh, there are 33 men who will, you know, there are those sort of statistics, and I don't know the ones for, um, LGBT. Um related. Um, I haven't seen anything reported. All gets reported this elevated level of [00:40:00] suicidal to what's going on. Well, that's it's not to do with age so much. Is it just to do with a group? Um, but, you know, the, um, suicide was illegal in the UK. And here, um, until 1961. Um, whereas now the homosexual law reform bill. Um, when did that happen? Much later. Yeah. I mean, I know I was around, you know, I was [00:40:30] here. I was there. Um, but, um, uh, yeah. So those sorts of it's interesting to know the dates of when things change. Um, I should have given this lesbian. Ah. Um Yes. So you would need to read the book and make the decision for yourself. Um, that's a strange answer, perhaps, but yes. I mean, there is. There are There aren't a lot of lesbian specific references in the in the book. [00:41:00] Um, there is just that novelist and the Taiwanese novelist who turns up. Um, because, of course, uh, this main character is reading everything she can find. Um, yeah. I mean, I know I know you, but can I ask you a question? Why would someone want to read this book? Because it's it's about suicide, And it's not cheerful, but yeah, people read. Why would someone and you if you [00:41:30] Yeah, I mean, I, um, I would have to throw that back to everyone. Why would you want to read this? But I mean, if I was going to answer it, I would I would hope that it would lead to people having more understanding, more empathy. It really is, um, like a deep dive into a suicidal mind. I'm, you know, suicide obsessed, suicidal mind, You know, any anyone, just anyone who's just so in it. Um, so I would hope that it would lead to more empathy if not for the main character, but for the all of the information, [00:42:00] because it's just dense with the subject. But it doesn't romanticise it at all, obviously. But I'll just say that. I mean, that's one of the things that Samaritans don't like you to do. If you're writing a book, you don't romanticise it. But that's the last thing I'll be doing. You you wouldn't even after a page into the book. You're not gonna be thinking anything. You know, it's it's not. You had a question. Sorry. Did you? I thought you did. Oh, you didn't. Sorry. Yeah. Oh, you did. This is a tough question that you might not want to [00:42:30] answer. And you're very welcome not to. But you just said that it's a dive into into the mind of someone who's felt suicidal, which is quite a big thing to say. Suicide obsessed. I might rephrase that. OK, because, um, because it's it's like, Oh, this might help you understand. If you're actually in your mind. Do you feel you felt that serious yourself suicidal? And you don't have to answer that. Um, I. I think I'm lucky enough not to have got to that terrible place. [00:43:00] Um, I know what it is to feel awful. And I think I mean, I That's a fairly bland word, isn't it? But, um um, but, um, you know, I've been in bad places, hard places, and I don't think that's much of a self reveal. Is that the word to say that? Because most people have, right? Yeah. I love that quote from somebody talking to a counsellor on a phone, cos I hadn't [00:43:30] thought that was greeting or would would startle somebody, because I I'm a Kiwi, So I'm so used to it. But I hadn't thought of somebody from another country ringing in. Um, no, actually, she was not startled by the She was startled by the fact that the woman was speaking. Yeah, Yeah, it wasn't that. It was just the fact that suddenly there was someone on the phone. Yeah, [00:44:00] yeah, but that was so true to life, no matter what the topic. Oh, I have started it, and I can't talk about it because I've only written a few 1000 words. So then that's not a good idea. Yeah, it will be growing [00:44:30] as the book goes. Honestly, growing, growing a growing obsession. Um, thank you so much for coming to. Listen to me, everyone. Yeah, and thanks for inviting me, Carol and and Ellen. Thank you. Thank you.

IRN: 3408
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TITLE: Tiwhanawhana 20 Years On - interviews
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Chanel Hati; Daejah Biddle; De'Anne Jackson; Elizabeth Kerekere; Jem Traylen; Kassie Hartendorp; Kevin Haunui; Lainey Cowan
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2000s; 2020s; Ahakoa Te Aha (Auckland); Aotearoa New Zealand; Aro Valley Community Centre; Aro valley; Australia; Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Act 2021; Chanel Hati; Daejah Biddle; Dale Ferris; De'Anne Jackson; Elizabeth Kerekere; Fringe Bar; Gay Games and Cultural Festival 2002 (Sydney, Australia); Gisborne; Green Party; Hongoeka Marae; Human Rights Act (1993); Jem Traylen; Kassie Hartendorp; Kaupapa Māori; Kay'la Riarn; Kevin Haunui; Lainey Cowan; Member of Parliament; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; Ngāti Hine; Out in the Park (Wellington); Rapai Te Hau; Sydney; Thistle Hall; Tiriti o Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi; Tīwhanawhana; Tīwhanawhana Trust; Victor Taurewa Biddle; Wellington; Wellington Pasifika Festival; Will Hansen; community; conversion / reparative therapy; discrimination; diversity; fun; inaugural speech; indigenous peoples; intersex; kapa haka; kaupapa; non-binary; petition against conversion therapy; poi; pono; pride; safe space; takatāpui; tangata whenua; tika; tikanga; trans; waiata
DATE: 15 March 2021
YEAR: 2021
LOCATION: Thistle Hall, First floor, 293 Cuba Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Interviews with members of Tiwhanawhana at the event to celebrate Tiwhanawhana's 20th anniversary on 15 March 2021 at Thistle Hall, Wellington.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Is celebrating its 20th, uh, years of existence really in the LGBTI and community here in Wellington. So here we are, in Wellington at the Thistle Hall. Um, and we're getting together to acknowledge 20 years celebrate, tell a few stories, show a few, um, pictures show a few artefacts that have been collected, uh, along our journey. [00:00:30] Um, And as I say, it's really a celebration and a and an acknowledgement that here we are, 20 years later, still going quite strong. And, um and it's something we should be really proud of. How did begin? Well, um, Doctor Elizabeth as she is now, um, was the, uh, person who who was the leader really behind forming and its initial, [00:01:00] uh, gathering as a group of Maori, Uh, and also those in the queer community who had got together and were going as part of the team Wellington to the Gay Games in 2002. So in 2001, uh, when, uh, Elizabeth got the group together, uh, and started floating that idea that we should have a a particular show our identity within the wider identity of the LGBTI Q community of [00:01:30] Wellington. Um And that's how really it started. Uh, that genesis gave a focus. Uh, and then after that, we kept on using that focus around, uh, having a an identity and a place and a space, uh, in Wellington City, but also, um, to highlight what could have been or what could be an option for other in centres around the country. [00:02:00] So we were trying to show a model, uh, of what could happen. And I think it's a fairly sustainable model, as I as I say, we're celebrating 20 years. Yeah. How many people were involved at the start? So the the initial group that was practising was actually a huge group, something like about 30 to 40 people. Um, we used to meet at the community centre, um, on Sundays and [00:02:30] practise for a couple of hours. And it was during those practises that you start to work out. Now, what is it that we can do culturally? Uh, well, how do we fit in in terms of, uh, identity or pan tribal identity? Uh, what are the appropriate for us to be singing and all those sort of questions, um, started to come, uh, as we were practising together. And so it also started to highlight to us that [00:03:00] perhaps we should think about creating our own our own, uh, celebrating our stories in our own particular way So that we are didn't have to so much worry about any any, uh, clashes with other identities, whether it's Maori or whether it's, uh, LGBTI. Yeah, so that that was that was how it started. Those were the groups of people that came together, but underneath it all was effectively [00:03:30] Elizabeth assisted by, um, two other, uh, woman who came along to to actually, uh, teach. And that was Dale Ferris, who was one of the early members of as well. And, um is the name of the other. And I was there, um, in a supporting role you mentioned, um, place and, um, having lived here for [00:04:00] all all my life. Now, um, to for the last 20 years has been a cornerstone for so many events and organisations. Where do you see the place of in Wellington's Rainbow Communities? Well, um, goals are are threefold. Basically, one of them is to tell our own stories. The other is actually to build community. So when we talk about building community. We're talking about it in the most [00:04:30] inclusive sense that we can think of. So that's in terms of, uh, creating community within the LGBTI Q community. Uh, creating community with Maori community. Uh, so we see ourselves as, uh, at that particular intersection. Um and so we're wanting to encourage, um that those relationships, uh, inform those relationships in all those different directions because we believe that's, uh, [00:05:00] that represents who we are. Uh, and it represents the ideals that we we want to see, um, for, uh, our community, but also as that's I think, what we believe in as well. So, uh, that's why we made it. It was a strategic decision so that when we talk about building community, we're going to go out there and form those relationships with all the other organisations that we can, whether it's [00:05:30] with youth groups or whether it's with uh, older established groups. Uh, didn't matter what um, part of the rainbow community you came from, uh, we saw it as our job to help support each and every one of those, uh, organisations and also promote, uh, Maori through those relationships as a cornerstone for them, uh, is, uh, as a community group from New Zealand. So that's, you know, maybe that was a bit [00:06:00] of a underhanded way. Perhaps, but I don't think it's meant like that. It's just what we saw as the New Zealand Society Society was a combination of both. And so we wanted to make sure that the Maori do was there within our community, Uh, as well. Um, so my name is and, um I'm of, um, descent, and I am very pleased to be doing this interview [00:06:30] for you. Um, OK, so for I had heard about, but they were practising down at the library and, uh, we just moved into our new office, which is on Willow Street, the new NZ PC. And one day I saw Kevin. I saw Kevin and I said to him, Are you the leader of and he And he said, Yes, I am. And I'm like, you know, I've always wanted to join a Kapa Haka group. Where [00:07:00] are you practising? And he said down at the library. And I said, You know, we've got a new space. I said, What I could do is I could, you know, ask my boss if you could use our premises. I said and I can sit there and wait till you finish, and then I can look up after. But really, I really that was really my push to to to to really, um, join. So So So after a couple of weeks, uh, that's what I did. [00:07:30] I opened up and they practised. And, um, eventually I joined in. I joined in. And, um, it was that feeling that everybody had that that that that that family feeling that, you know, people have, especially in our community. And it's really, really tight. And it's sort of when I when I when I saw that, I was like, you know, that's a part of me that's kind of missing because I work, I go home and I don't [00:08:00] do anything else. And, um, joining has been a real pleasure, and, you know, because I was I have I have a little a little bit of skill at the point. I decided to join and help. And the thing with is that everybody in you don't have to be Maori, you know, we had, we had, we've had we've had Japanese. We [00:08:30] had American and, um, you know, it doesn't matter who you are, where you come from, what race you are. It's actually a safe space. And that's been our number one is is not a committed group. It's a place where you can come. You can sing, you can you can mingle with other people, uh, eat food and, um, just enjoy yourself. [00:09:00] And that's how we've always been, uh, I've been with I think about, oh, gosh, maybe six years, maybe longer. But I'll tell you what. Um, my my my biggest enjoyment with is opening events for our community because, you know, with us being kiwis, that's that's what we do. We, we we, uh, as as as a Maori culture group, [00:09:30] you know, you open events because that's the and it's always been. And it's always been what we've done and what we've always wanted to do and what we continue to do. I mean, started a long time ago, probably around about as far as I know, 2001. And, um, there are one or two original members, but, um, but we have so many people that have come and joined, um, and, [00:10:00] um, I just I just enjoy being with the group and being a part of being a part of something And, you know, at a time like this, which is the pride, you know, this is the time that really comes out and supports, um, all the events or most of the events that people ask us to do. And and we do that and we do that we don't ask for anything. We do it because it's what we love to do for our for [00:10:30] our community. And, um, Auckland has their version of us, and they they're really stunning. And they're called and, um, they they they do a lot of support for, um the big gay out. Yeah. So it's our two cities. I think the only city that's missing is that Christchurch. And it would be nice because, you know, one day we could all come together and, um, you know, have, like, a real big That would be that would be amazing. But Christchurch [00:11:00] is, um you know, each city is different in terms of the communities. Christchurch may be a little bit smaller than the rest. Wellington and Auckland. Um, you know, they have their They have their communities. But it'd be nice if we had one in the other main city as well. That would be great, you know, But just being a part of of this of this whole, this whole thing, and just seeing people coming. [00:11:30] And some people, some people are like, I don't even realise they know. And they're like, Hey, you And I'm like, uh, yeah, like, and I've never met them before And they're like, Well, I saw you the other night. Da, da, da. And I'm like, Oh, well, you know, And it's really nice because that is the way people that that's your payback for for, uh, supporting your community. The people come up and and some of them you don't even know or you've never met them. And it's just an honour and a privilege [00:12:00] to be part of of this group 20 years on, it's a long time. Chanel, Can you describe for me what it was like that first time you performed with the OK? Oh, gosh. I'm trying to remember the first time I performed with the I think it was at, um I think it was at and, um, I just remember standing in front of, um, in front of people and and And these were people from the marae and [00:12:30] they'd never really seen a group. And, um, just standing as a person before, before your people and just watching them smile, you know, when? So I grew up in an era where, um I never thought about my culture because I didn't think that I was deserving enough to be in, in in, uh, or perform [00:13:00] because I didn't know how how our people felt about about that. And But as as time has moved on, people's minds are a lot more broader, you know, Um, you know, a lot more broader in terms of, um, performing Trans woman performing like in In In the Big You know, years ago there was that there was a Trans woman and she had a little bit of stick [00:13:30] back in the eighties. But, you know, um, the Internet has opened the world to to the different diversities of people. So it's a lot more broader, and people are more accepting of, um of you these days, uh, particularly Maori people and, um, to stand before them and perform and just see their faces light up when we did the to me was like, Oh, God, that's so nice. It was such a good feeling. And, um, I think, yeah, I think was the first [00:14:00] place I perform, and I'll never forget it. It was it was amazing. Um, so we're currently at the 20th anniversary of the community Kaha group. Um, and we've got quite a few people here at the moment who are all making their way in. And we're here to celebrate. Yeah, and what it's been doing over the past couple of decades. And Cassie, I just saw you before bringing in, um, a gorgeous photo of [00:14:30] Vic. Yes. So this is Victor and this this photo, um, actually was given to me to just look after at a, um, possibly three years ago. Um, So Vic was a key part of when he was based in Wellington. Sometimes he was up in, and But when he was here, he would often come along to our kaha practises and be a constant presence with with us. So I thought [00:15:00] I'd bring this this photo back to so that he could be with us today. And it's a real joy to see some of us here, actually. Yeah. What is it like for you being here today? Um, I just got emotional in, like, two seconds. Um, to be honest, it's overwhelming. I've never, um, experienced something like this before. I didn't even know my uncle was part of a group like this until [00:15:30] the till. He died till he had passed away. A few days before he had passed away, I found out that there was this whole group. Um, yeah. Can you describe that? Oh, he was really staunch. He was a staunch man. He really was. No one messed with him in our in our area. Um, very humble, Beautiful. Um, I got I got [00:16:00] little memory of my uncle. I wasn't I was hardly around, um, of that side of the family. Not just because just my uncle, but just the whole family in general, I wasn't really a part of that. So I didn't really know my uncle like you too. But the connection I did have with him was, uh, was beautiful. Yeah, a few times he did ask me to come and live with him, but well, I don't want to Yeah, and I just came here today to [00:16:30] show face because, well, my uncle and, um, Dean, she had asked if I wanted to come, and I just thought, Yeah, that'll be awesome. Yeah. And, Casey, what about your memories of the Oh, yes. That was very staunch. He was often, um, you know, wasn't shy to question what was going on in the group and saying, Why are we doing that? Or why are we doing this? And [00:17:00] what's that all about? Um, but I learned so much from him from him because he really taught me that it's OK to question what is happening around you in the world. And actually, sometimes you need to be staunch, and you need to use your voice and put your feet in the sand and say, This is where you're at. So for for me? Um, yeah. Vic was a huge mentor within the community and believed in me at a time when when Not many people did. So he means a lot to me. Yeah. [00:17:30] I feel like this is actually quite a big moment for you. And I hadn't realised so it's emotional. Especially when the photo came in. Yeah, I think It's really important to remember the people who have been a part of our communities and our who who always stood by and and showed that as well. [00:18:00] And, um and and we should remember them as well. And it's It's not always the most glamorous people at the front. But sometimes it's the quiet people at the back who are keeping keeping the waka moving and and doing that with a real, um, with real integrity. And that's what Vic always did for us. Uh, I'm Jim. Um, about five or six years ago, soon after I started my transition as a trans woman. I [00:18:30] started to network amongst all the community groups in Wellington, and I don't know how I heard of, but I went along to say hi. And, um and then maybe, like a year or two later, I started to go back as a regular and, you know, started performing with them from time to time. Yeah, And what what drew you to to, um it just seems like it's a little jewel in the heart of the rainbow community in Wellington. Um, just on a personal level, I wanted to improve [00:19:00] my and I thought that, like singing regularly would help with that. Yeah, it was just a way into that world. Can you recall your feelings that the first time you practised with the um, yeah. Actually, I wasn't so nervous because I have been in Kapa Haka groups before, and it was very hard as a beginner to get into it. You know, you just felt like every time you made a mistake, it was awful. And it was all going too fast and you couldn't pick anything up, but, um is so [00:19:30] welcoming. It's really great for beginners. They don't have a lot of expectations on beginners. And, um, so I felt much more comfortable, Um, and that haka group than I had and others that I've tried out with. Yeah. What are what are the most memorable things that that that you've taken part in with? Um, Well, I wasn't nervous practising the first, the first actual performance, which was something in at fringe Bar that we were participating in. And, um [00:20:00] yeah, I was very, very, very, very nervous. Um, when you're performing, things go a lot faster than when you're practising. So that was memorable. But the other more generally speaking was just being welcoming the crowds that out in the park each year, that's that. That, for me is the big highlight. Yeah. What would you say, um, to place in, uh, the rainbow communities in in Wellington is, um Well, [00:20:30] I think, like, in any any part of our society, a reminder that, um, indigenous people are and an important part of our culture is including their culture and having them having some indigenous group sort of open a community, I think is pretty essential. Yeah, um, and I think I think people enjoy it. Uh, just, um, people love singing. Yeah. [00:21:00] Um, I, I remember, like at Elizabeth Carey Carey's maiden speech in Parliament. Like, um, we were there for some of the previous speakers who were just, like, very, very. It was very dry and dull. And then Elizabeth gets up and speaks, and suddenly people are laughing. And then we did our at the end. Um, I think just everybody who was there, uh, whether they were there for Elizabeth or not enjoyed, um, having that being a part of our culture. [00:21:30] Oh, hi. My name is Dianne. Um, I am a queen I've been here with for about, oh, a few years now. How I got involved with was Chanel asked me to come along and not a and not a po dancer or anything like that. I was a bit apprehensive and thinking. Oh, well, I don't know. I don't think, but anyway, she really, really persuaded me, so I came along. So And can you remember that that first time [00:22:00] that you came along, what was the feeling like? Shying, scared, embarrassed. And then I everybody was just so welcoming, you know, it was just that open arm, feeling hugging, feeling good factor and everything. So yeah. Yeah, And after the first week and then I have a look back, and I think we're going on to so many years. I've counted it 10 years, but yes, yes, over that 10 years. What? What's been the most memorable? [00:22:30] Um, events You've been to the events, the whole lot of them that, um, being at parliament, I don't know how many times you've been to parliament meeting all the politicians and everybody, um, and then going out performing for all the different areas here in, um, Wellington city. I mean, it's just been so enjoyable and giving back to the community what LGBT Q I people are able to do to sing and to yeah, and do action songs [00:23:00] and everything and the back to the community. How do you think has changed over that time? Wow. How How have we changed? I think we're more open. We're not as shy as we used to be. And, um yeah, yeah. And of course, we've got some brilliant leaders like KC um, Doctor Elizabeth MP for the Green Party. And of course, our our one and only, um Kevin. So yeah, I think it's we've just opened up to the LGBT Q I [00:23:30] and so many people are so interested in our grape. So yes, just looking around tonight because we're here at the 20th celebrations for Can you describe who's here? Ok, be up over here is Kayla. She's our co. She's our she does all the arranging of all the food and everything. I mean, that is one of her expertise and everything. And then we've got some visitors. Oh, will, will works for one of the gay. There's a whole array of other um [00:24:00] LGBT Q I people from around here in Wellington that have come to support our group and to wish us all a very happy birthday for our 20th birthday celebrations. And yes, and some lovely people I haven't seen for ages then yet, And now, um, yeah. Tell me, how do you think, um, fits into, um, the Wellington community? Um, a need. It's a very, very desperate need for LGBT Q I [00:24:30] people and Maori and Pacific Pacific and Asian, you know, to be able to come out here into Wellington And because Wellington is one of the most beautiful cities throughout the whole wide world that I know of that a all the LGBT Q I people into our kaha group to, um yeah, yeah, to say hi and to, um, meet and to Yeah, yeah, and to grow as a, um LGBT [00:25:00] Q I family and everything. So yeah, called. Um um um uh, but, um, brought up in Wellington, and I, um I went to the [00:25:30] Gay Games in 19. 0, I was gonna say nine. It wasn't. It was 2001 in Sydney and in the run up to it, um, I I was aware that Elizabeth was doing this fabulous work to get Wellington organised as a team, and I only I went to a, um a very few things. Well, because I was very. I was working full time and sort of busy with other things then. But, um, it was so amazing [00:26:00] when we got to the gay games that we went on leading all of, um, with AAA strong, indigenous sort of presence. It was so powerful. And everyone there, I think it just raised the tone, frankly, of the whole gathering. And it put a on the on forward in in A in a beautiful way. And it it put us ahead of, um, say because they were so dispersed [00:26:30] and they hadn't, I think even hadn't got together as a group. And so I've just always been so grateful for Elizabeth's vision and and seeing that that would be a really powerful thing to do. And, um, thanks to that, I really I saw this lovely sort of place I could feel part of, um, when we came back, uh, I I wasn't always able to go, but, uh, and and also I'm not AAA great singer [00:27:00] or and I'm hopeless with poi uh, I should practise more, but I loved going and, um, I sort of tend to back out when it comes to public performances, because I'm sure I'm gonna put the wrong foot forward. But I, I, um it it has been wonderful. And as the who he said today, it's just been really significant in people's lives. And it feels really, uh, important part of my now as well. [00:27:30] Yeah. Can you describe, um, to place in, uh, Wellington? Oh, wow. Isn't it wonderful that from that beginning of really sort of feeling like we were closeted within the gay games, um, to lead to Sidney? Um, And then suddenly we we are out and proud and a, uh, and and and and indigenous No, no matter [00:28:00] who we are, we're indigenous when we and it's just been a wonderful part of the outing of the rainbow community into Wellington, and I have loved the opportunity, it's it's given to be part of, um, some some fabulous events. And when I haven't been part of it, like now I've got a sprained ankle. But I, I I've also I've been away tramping getting a sprained ankle, but to come [00:28:30] back and see this beautiful performance on Saturday. Um, opening the Pride festival. I mean, I, I think Wellington is so lucky to have us just so I hope. I think a lot of Wellington people know how lucky they are to have us and at Pacifica to open Pacifica. It was, um, again, I was in the audience and I took some good photographs for for them. It was I just felt very proud. Yeah. [00:29:00] No. So, Elizabeth, we've just finished, um, the wonderful celebration for 20 years of, of, of, of being, um, of being, um can you describe what the evening has been like? It's been a really beautiful evening. In typical fashion. It's chilled out, It's relaxed, there's food, there's singing. And there's talking. Uh, we always combine all of those things. So it's been lovely. We've had people who [00:29:30] were there from the beginning, Uh, people who have come in and out over the years, uh, and people sharing really beautiful memories this year. Well, last year has been a particularly big year for you. Um, being a new member of parliament. Um, just a couple of weeks ago, you were giving your maiden speech. Can you tell me what was that like? Uh, that was an incredible thing. And over the years, when times have been hard and especially on the campaign trail, uh, I would just close my eyes. [00:30:00] Imagine myself giving my speech surrounded by all the people I love. And it would give me strength, and it would sort out my attitude and get on with the work. And it was incredible. We had over 230 people come from all over the country, and I sent the call out. Let's paint Parliament purple, and we absolutely did everybody there and just so many shades of purple and and being able to speak in the house [00:30:30] about issues for that why rights is a treaty issue. How much work we need to do to uplift the mana of our trans non-binary and intersex and just having to do my for me and do the And it was just I thought, I'm home as long as I know I had them all behind me and all my family, all our friends, Uh, but our community is That's [00:31:00] the mandate I need to do the work I need to do in this house, and already you can see the impact. A week later, we launched our petition for, um conversion therapy 160,000 names in a week. Uh, it is the largest verified, uh, petition that's ever happened in this country. Now, the government's committed to, uh, bringing that forward, but also starting work on the birth, Death, marriages and Relationships Registration [00:31:30] Act. So we know that this is all flowing out because none of those things were on the record before. None of those things were on the table, and now they're all happening. The the last piece of things that I want to get this done this year is, uh is amending the Human Rights Act to add grounds of discrimination for gender identity and gender expression and sex characteristics. Uh, because the particular type of discrimination, our face, [00:32:00] that needs to be addressed, and it's an overarching thing, but it gives us the impetus then to make all the rest of the changes that we need to make. So I'm excited, Got plenty of work to do, and I'm looking forward. Well, I feel like I've hit the ground running and I don't I do not intend to stop. And you were saying earlier this evening that to holds a very special place in your heart and gives you gives you energy, it absolutely does, and founding [00:32:30] it 20 years ago, seeing the need and the fact that the leadership we have, particularly with Kevin Nui being based here in Wellington, Um, we're a national trust. But, you know, the heart of our is a group here in Wellington. I live in Gisborne and I come down here all the time, but it it's our shared leadership that makes things work. Where do you think will be in 20 years from now? Oh, well, we'll still be going. [00:33:00] There is Number one is fun. Uh, because of that leadership. And it might not always be me and Kevin that are there, but I believe that space where you can come into the city be Maori in a way that honours your diverse sexuality or genders or or your sex characteristics. I believe there will always be a need for that. And if it's not in this form, it'll be in one way or another. But it's also why we must document our histories as we go, Um, [00:33:30] because we're just living it. We're doing it and and is in demand. There's nothing that happens in our community in the Wellington region that is not part of. And that's for an indigenous LGBTI Q group. There's nothing like this in the world. What does is absolutely world leading, and we need to make sure we capture that, and we we record it ourselves. We we talk about leaving a legacy, but the story of [00:34:00] how we operate, that's that's a story in and of itself.

IRN: 3404
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089905
TITLE: Ian Johnstone - Compass
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VOICES: Ian Johnstone
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; 2020s; Alan Morris; Allan Martin; Allan Martin; Aotearoa New Zealand; Avalon Television Studios; BBC; Barry Neels; Charles Allan Aberhart; Compass (television series); Dorian Society; Fraser Mcdonald; Gordon Bick; Homosexual Law Reform; Homosexual Law Reform Society; Ian Johnstone; Julia Stuart; Juliet Hulme; Ken White; Listener (magazine); Lord Cobham; NFU (National Film Unit); NZ Truth; NZBC (New Zealand Broacasting Corporation); NZBS (New Zealand Broadcasting Service); New Plymouth; New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society petition (1968); New Zealand Tablet; Panorama (BBC televison); Pauline Parker; Robert Muldoon; Ron Cook; Royal Oak Hotel; TVNZ (Television New Zealand); Temuka; Timaru; Unity Theatre (Wellington); Venn Young; Vietnam / American War; Wellington; Wolfenden report; acting; civil unions; crime; current affairs; decimal currency; film; homo; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; molestation; pansy; police; prejudice; public toilet; queer; review; television; theology
DATE: 23 January 2021
YEAR: 2021
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, I, uh, in the 19 sixties, I came to New Zealand, First of all, from from, um Africa via Britain or Britain via Africa. I've been working in both and, um very soon was delighted by New Zealand's spread of radio coverage. Uh, I was used to radio being the voice of God from London in Britain, and that was that as a northerner, one would never get near it. However, living in Timaru as I was, [00:00:30] um, first of all teaching, I could hear the local radio station and have I in contact, you know, with the people who ran it and who were part of our community. I thought this was good fun. I got a job with them, loved it, uh, was a DJ. Then I had the good fortune to be transferred to Wellington just as television arrived. And as we became, we meaning the NZ BS for whom I had worked became the NZ BC, [00:01:00] which meant it was co public corporation rather than a government department which meant it should be much freer to represent a range of views rather than get trapped into government propaganda. And also, most excitingly, was introducing television and, uh So I was rusted on to read news on television along with other news readers who were doing the radio news and and enjoyed [00:01:30] it, Um, even if we hardly knew what we were doing. But we did have this powerful mandate from the country at large to give them a television service, and they were very keen for it. I mean, they they were delighted that the NZ BC had started television. And, uh, perhaps the major snag was they were not seeing enough about New Zealand on their television. They could watch the early [00:02:00] days of Coronation Street and all that and, uh, see people drinking after six, which was itself a help in a major social reform that came about quite soon, which was the change to a 10 o'clock closing. Uh, and also they could watch BBC news. Not much about television about New Zealand other than the weather forecast. So as soon as we had a main line programme [00:02:30] series running in four places, the NZ BC decided to start a current affairs series and we called it compass, and I had the good luck to be recruited as a reporter for it or the reporter, I should say for it because it was a small scale deal and it was produced by, um, Alan Martin, the name of some eminent now and indeed deservedly so. Who is the The There was the head of programmes, [00:03:00] I think at that stage Pardon me or production anyway, had he was a key. We who had worked in in Britain and had worked for some current affairs programmes there for rediffusion and so on and it was fronted hosted is maybe the word by Alan Morris. Another, uh, expat Kiwi, who had been in Britain for a long time, came here to, uh, head the production arm of TV NZ BC and fronted this and the idea was [00:03:30] along the lines. And some of people looking at this may know it of a programme called Panorama, which has been running forever on BBC television and which deals with current political social issues, questions, problems and the like, uh and and off we went, um, as I say, small scale. We had this. We had to learn how to do it. First of all, the entire programme, apart from its studio assembly, all [00:04:00] black and white in those days, uh, had to be made on film, which meant borrowing film crews from the National film unit and trundling off into the countryside to interview or whatever you had to do to make programmes. Um, that that you needed. And then you get a film editor who had a rough idea of what to do, put it all together and put it in front of Alan, who would say, Oh, that's a bit long winded, but we are learning, aren't we? So yeah, let's just trim it out and let's go. And we did [00:04:30] it in because we were a small production unit and, you know, it was quite a complex thing to do. But we did it in a series of about eight, I think. Then we'd take a break and then come back again. And so this was broadcast nationally. That's right. And what kind of broadcast time did you have a good time? It was early evening, seven o'clock, something like that, right after the news. And the way it worked because we didn't have a national link then was that we would make [00:05:00] it in Wellington. We put it to air in Wellington on a Wednesday night and tape it and then send copies of the tapes to Auckland, Dunedin and Christchurch. Who would play it the next night. And when you say tape, so was this on film or was actually no made on film but recorded on vast, bulky 34 inch video tape reels with the great machines that used to record in those days? Yeah, so [00:05:30] what year did Compas start? We were on air just before the decimal currency change, because that was our first dramatic crisis public argument programme. We I mean, we covered very Orthodox topics. Uh, it was mostly to do with government programmes or proposals or social or business things that were going to happen to the country. Like I remember doing a long programme [00:06:00] with Steve White House about what effect Containerization would have when it came another. The decimal currency. One was, um, somehow our producer Gordon Brick got hold of an American Gordon Bick. His name was sorry. Got hold of an American or an Australian expert who forecast that the day after we changed from pound shilling and pence, uh, to dollars and cents under [00:06:30] Rob Muldoon, who was then the associate minister of finance under his control. This that meant said this man, that prices would increase by at least 7% or whatever. Oh, big fuss, Muldoon. How dare you say that? Why wasn't I consulted about this matter beforehand? No. Well, we saw him. No, you're not sorry. You know? And he It was his first practise run at becoming the kind [00:07:00] of political tiger that that he was. So that was a we We were an independent corporation, but we were still very aware that the government controlled the amount of money that we could get from licence fees and had to give us money to. So it was difficult to get discussion on things like the Vietnam War because that would undoubtedly rock the boat as far as Prime Minister was concerned, and perhaps make him make it less likely [00:07:30] that he would look kindly upon our application for overseas funds. So I don't think we better touch that one here, you know, And I had to say, Well, I think we should. And so on we went. And then by 67 we were in a position to begin to do stuff that was really a bit more of our own making. And I like to think that this programme on homosexual law reform in 60 was of our own making. You know, it it was something [00:08:00] that we saw, as as television makers was important. Should be discussed publicly, had not been publicly been published for various kind of odd reasons. Uh, and should and we pushed. And, um, our masters saw the wisdom and the justice in that It always took a bit of persuasion. You want to tell them that, you know, a it would be totally reliable. [00:08:30] And B it was important. And let's see if they were to turn it down. Who knows? Somebody might find out that they had refused to agree to We would not want our part to understand. But, you know, all the all the games that you play. So So So when you say, um, talking to our masters, uh, was there quite a hierarchy of people that you had to convince to get the shows on? Well spotted? Indeed there was. Yeah. Um, [00:09:00] there was a director general and above him on board, of course, who very rarely had anything to do with them. But then there was a director of television, so he would come into the equation if there was an edge of question or might be some conservative response to whatever we've got. Under him was a controller of news and current affairs. Under him was the head of the Wellington station. And under him, I should say around him, really, they were all relatively was the, [00:09:30] um um what did he call it? Controller of news and current affairs. And And he was our immediate boss. And he was the man to be persuaded, and he was usually pretty cautious. And you had to kind of Walsh your way around things and we played tricks. I have to say, Do you mind if I take a side step on that Gordon Beck in particular was that he had practised English standard news journalist and he he [00:10:00] knew about editors. And dear Bruce, who was our our head of, uh, of current affairs had to always check the rough cut, as we called it of a programme and say, Oh, well, I think perhaps that interview was rather too much of that. Or, uh, I don't like that script suggestion you haven't quite got the balance, right? You know, whatever. Cautious. They always were cautious. They were very rarely encouraging you to do braver or newer things. [00:10:30] And so Gordon and the film editor connived between them to for no reason whatsoever put in a shot of, um, or a sinking destroyer, Let's say, from some World War two footage or a bomb test in the in two thirds of the way into the programme. And And that meant that you put in your deliberate mistake and Bruce could see. I do think I don't know how that got in there, but that should Oh, thank God [00:11:00] you spotted it, Bruce. Well, my word, What a relief. And you know, you hope to play these silly games. And and generally I have to say they did give in. But the difficult thing always was to get approval from Bruce and his seniors because he would report to a meeting. And then he thought, quite often, poor bugger. He thought that's a great idea. Yes. Oh, what good scheme. And then he'd go to a meeting he, his senior officers, and then come back [00:11:30] to look, I don't think that is such a good idea after all. So you knew he'd been hammered by, you know, one or two above him, and you had some sympathy for him. But it was Yeah, it was hierarchical and over control. So the programme we're going to focus on today was a compass programme looking at homosexual law reform. And I've got it here as it was broadcast on the 27th of April 1967. Can you tell me how [00:12:00] so? If that's the broadcast date, how long did it take to produce? Uh, not necessarily that programme, but a programme. How? How? How? How many weeks or months? Or two weeks? I guess roughly, Uh and sometimes you were shooting because there was an occasion, but it might take you longer, but that would be a one off thing that you chart and you put it on the shelf and wait until you needed it. But average two week turnover, I suppose, from approval to getting it to air. And why? [00:12:30] Why at that point were you looking at a programme on homosexual law reform? It was bubbling the topic. Uh, there was some discussion. The a lot of our stuff was secondary to Britain. So I think it was the wolf and was starting to report in Britain and discuss and not make any great progress, but at least and so naturally you knew about it. And you think Oh, yeah. And then you began [00:13:00] to sniff around and find out a what our legal position was, which was usually much the same as the Brits without, and And if there were any rumblings or suggestions and then you found out, you know, that there were a number of people trying to push for law reform here about homosexuality, and, uh, it was interesting you went and talked to them. And then you discovered that, um van young, brave man, [00:13:30] uh, out of New Plymouth. I always love to see that, you know, rural New Zealand doing brave things was going to talk, talking about bringing up a, um, a private members bill or something. You know, that good? That that provides the kind of public impetus that you is useful when you're trying to persuade the bosses to let you do it. And and that's what got us moving. I will confess to a personal no, I'll I'll tell you about that at the end [00:14:00] when? Yeah, I was keen myself to do some work on this topic. But I'll tell you when we finish the programme, may I? So you don't want it on the record? No, no, I don't mind. No, I just think it might make a little more sense once we've talked about the actual programme itself. Sorry, I'm doing myself editing here. Go. Can you recall if there were many, Um, were you aware of many gay [00:14:30] people within BC NZ? Yes. Yeah, not many. But you knew because it was more readily talked of, you know, we were a more open working community and then the standard one, and yeah, so there were There were a number of, I mean a number of actors and things like that. And in fact, that's how we found our people to be on our programme through acting the Unity Theatre Group. [00:15:00] Uh, the way that said the way that that happened, we were thinking about doing a programme and had mentioned it to one of the people whom you thought would be interested because they were gay or because they were a good idea, you know, It's about time we did something. Goodness sake, both of them. So you knew and Julia Mason as she was then, and Julia Stewart now is she was the only researcher for the programme. [00:15:30] She had good friends who were, uh, in actors. And what did they call it? Unity Theatre Group. And at a rehearsal of something like that, she said, Oh, by the way, we're looking at the possibility of one and two or three people put their hands up and said, Oh, I know a few gay people and quite a lot. Or maybe I'm gay myself. I really don't know that background, but she made some connections and they said, If you decide to go ahead, we'll help you which was the first important step, [00:16:00] and then then we just we put on that basis. I think we put the proposal up, and we got approval to go ahead with it. Provided, of course, I entirely nothing illegal as you don't remember. Yeah, yeah, we know, yes. Guarantee you, you know, and you'll have a chance to look at it and all that stuff. So, uh, then we put it together. Julia assembled a list of names with the great help, and I must offer them a huge gratitude. And thanks to Barry Neils, [00:16:30] I don't know if that name rings. He was something to do with the group. What was it called? It wasn't Wolf and and it was the the the the the The Dorian Group Do Society. That's right, which was an assembly. I think of gay people and their supporters. We can use gay now, which we didn't in those days, and Barry, it was who said yes. Well, I'll, I'll help you to get in touch with some people that I think might be prepared, and [00:17:00] you have to understand there's quite a risk for them. So we were mightily touched that they had enough trust in Julia and in us to actually come along to a meeting. I seem to remember at Barry's house, where we kind of canvassed the idea and how many people might be able to take part and what they thought we should cover and do, and so on. And that was very heart warming [00:17:30] and good value. And so we went ahead, and now you used the word Well, I also use the word um gay. But I'm wondering back in the sixties what words were being used to talk about homosexuality to essentially in common, er, homos or queers. Bloody queer. He is, you know, and and it is interesting because one of the things I remember [00:18:00] looking back at this is we had just We started doing a few interviews, Um, because you could only do them gradually. I mean, you couldn't call a whole lot of people to get it would draw attention and spread. Anyway, it was known that we were doing this programme and, uh, was it the cameraman wouldn't have been because he wasn't a drinker. But I went with somebody into the bar top bar of the royal oak and [00:18:30] we cleared the bar. In other words, it was a place where gays drank and they wondered whether we are next to follow us might be a camera. And so I remember going to where you did in those days a a beer mate. Thanks. And you and you look and they've all gone. And then we really it was good to happen because it made me realise Oh, my word. We are on something here, which is carries a dangerous overtone [00:19:00] for a lot of the people. And it made me respect all the more those who were prepared to take that risk, what we had Should I ramble on? Well, before we continue on, um, just following on from that, I wonder, are you able to just have a bit of a description of what the climate towards homosexuality was like in the sixties? Um, I'm thinking that we had the Charles over heart killing [00:19:30] in the in the early sixties. We had the Parker Hume murder. Um What? How How was homosexuality seen by the kind of general population Do you think? Dismissive? I mean, uh, um I mean, basically prejudicial completely. Almost. It's unfair of me to say it completely because a number of, um, more liberal people were for for for simple matters of justice and and the like were very keen to see change. [00:20:00] Um, but there are a lot of other things that they needed changing as well. And there were, you know, restrictions on women and everybody was restricted in some way or other. So this was seen as kind of at the extreme end and affecting a kind of small minority of people really who were also obviously tolerating it. You know, there were no gay marches or homosexuals coming out and saying there were people who were frightened. [00:20:30] They were cowed they which was part of the reason. The more reason why something should be done about it. Because people were living in fear and shame and all the rest of it. And it was just time very much for a change. And also these organisations were were beginning to be set up here and I I read in quite recently which I wasn't aware of. Actually, the petition had been sent to the New [00:21:00] Zealand Parliament by 100 and signed by 75 notable citizens and all that, um and but it didn't get anywhere. So there was no response out of Parliament itself, left or right. Remember in those days, we just had left and right and they were pretty restricted in the view of their own view of their own responsibilities. You know, to be a brave person as Van Young was brave, obviously who? And I, I thought [00:21:30] to answer your question as directly as I can the or Inferential. Anyway, I read that that group who put their petition up to Parliament, then formed a committee that was going to work towards a change in homosexual law. And they went to the then governor General Lord Cobb, and asked him if he would be patron of this organisation. And he responded quite quickly [00:22:00] and obviously from his own hand, as it were saying, No, I will not because it's very obvious that homosexuality is a disease which is suffered by people and affects them mentally in the same way as, let's say, smallpox, uh affects people physically. And the problem is, of course, that we don't know how contagious this disease of homosexuality is. So there's no point in even trying to change the law. And I thought, My God, [00:22:30] that's probably a fairly standard official. I don't know. You can't even call it that, you know, prejudiced view of it. Given an understanding of the time. I suppose we shouldn't be all that surprised. So yes. Yeah, it was a matter of shame. If you were gay, you were given treatment often. I think if you were you reported it and explain how it was concerning [00:23:00] you. Then you'd be sent off to And unless you found a good one like a Fraser McDonald or people like that who were very responsible and understanding people, I imagine the treatment would be bloody awful. And Fraser McDonald was a He was a man I greatly admired. He and some of the better people in those days in the public service or were were in this He was the head of Dam one of the A, I think an Auckland [00:23:30] mental institution, you know, uh, and and was a liberal and used to speak out bravely. Uh, and that's all. I'm sorry. I should know more about it, and more should have been done to honour him. But there was others who were really quite strong and good on on the question. Can I take you back to that meeting you had at Barry Neil's house And what were the kind of issues that the, um [00:24:00] I guess Gay community, But also other people in the room? What? What did they want to see in that programme? Well, I have to say the first thing about it was because we didn't know any each other. All we had was Barry's good will as it were as as Rina, uh, and Julia's openness and knowledge and our rough intention. You know, we'd like to do something [00:24:30] on the topic and first thing, I'd say it's a good idea because it could be that they said, Oh my God, look, you know who knows what will happen after this? We all of us are our closet. We are hidden. Some of us are in marriages. We all of us have jobs that the consequences of opening it up and us being revealed. Not only are we open police prosecution, I don't [00:25:00] know how many prosecutions there'd been, but but, you know, it was in once you declared on television that you were gay or whatever and presumably had committed what regarded as as an illegal acts. Then they could swoop on you. And and, you know, it was a real fear. And the last thing we wanted was to try and go, either in ways which would harm them or be going half baked. So you go and do. And unfortunately, we can't tell [00:25:30] you much about this. But no good doesn't work in television, you know, it's about people coming to review for the viewer something that he if he didn't know about beforehand. And and so that took one meeting. I think to get that right. Then we went in and went in more detail, and we began to quiz them about Well, what? What does it mean in your life that you Well, you know, I have a very good understanding with my wife or my partner and I have been together for [00:26:00] 15 years, but we always have to go out by different, and we can't and and just explaining those kind of social limitations on contact, exposure, freedom to move, to go together, to drink together, to travel. And it was very I, I suspect, by the way, that it had worsened since the troops came back. I haven't read much about gay experience [00:26:30] in the military, but I think that the soldiers were much more open, Um, and indeed may well have been more homosexual themselves. And so and then it had tightened down. You know, the were reverted to the frumpy conservative society that New Zealand was really accused of being in so many ways in the sixties. Anyway, we had two or three meetings like this and then we had to work with them in details. [00:27:00] OK, if we were to do it, what are your requirements? And it was about not being identified on in by by sound or vision. Um, absolutely no communication of names, contacts, people involved with the police and complete confidentiality in the names and [00:27:30] places that we would film within our own group, which meant camera crew, Julia and myself. And we happy with that Absolutely happy and delighted, you know, And we please let us know through Barry, if you're willing to take part and we did and they did, and we then went Julia and I just talking, we didn't send any memos around or [00:28:00] to the head cameraman, Um, Ken White and Ken being a sympathetic sort of I said, Yeah, well, I will do this job. I won't have a junior do it, and it will not go on the roster or whatever. You know, it just encompass filming. And we got likewise senior sound recordist Ron Cook, and so he none of his you know, there was no question of it being discussed among the juniors or all the sound recorders or what have [00:28:30] you It was just a and off we went and we hired. I think two or three vans that were unlabeled didn't have NZ BC all over them. What have you We found mostly Bruce's house, Barry's house, but not always. Sometimes we went to other places and we went, uh, after dark and we didn't go at the same time. You know, we kind of we do [00:29:00] somewhere on a Monday night and somewhere else on a Wednesday night and just in case because people I don't know who knew whether the police or agents of who look for suspicious things might be in touch with what we were doing. But it sounds like you, you you as a team that had real concerns. This wasn't just, um it wasn't just [00:29:30] kind of in someone's mind. I mean, you obviously had real concerns that people would be found out, but but and also, in a way, you know, technically, we were breaking the law because we were asking people to discuss illegal acts or a life which had illegal elements in it. And, um, and in some ways, you know, had it just been had a being a political rather than a social Hu Hu main topic. You [00:30:00] could have been taken off air or whatever or have ugly scenes. And the last thing we wanted was to What's the word? Cover it in a in a kind of negatively explosive way. Bloody gay. You know, the kind of antagonism that was raised sometimes when reports were, as they were commonly published, about people being molested [00:30:30] and people in public laboratories trying to solicit and now, you know, which brought up public revulsion, not what we wanted at all. Quite the reverse. And it would have been quite in contrast for from something like the New Zealand truth. The truth. You're quite right. I mean, for them, this is fodder. This is what they did. And it's one of the reasons why we wanted to do our programme because we felt it was most unfair, obviously, to live on prejudice. [00:31:00] Good God, which exactly, You know, we're not about, you know, And and then we went, and we just, um Yeah, I mean, all all Ken did was shoot from the side. So it was all profile and fully lit on this side. So you got a moving profile moving, but you couldn't make out, and Ron tweaked some sort of little burble, [00:31:30] and it still was perfectly listenable. And but it we hoped that's all we could do. I hope it was. And to do them God bless them to do them justice. Nobody asked to see it before, and we did, in fact, show it to to a number of them before we put it to air. Just so they knew what they would have to face up to to. But nobody said, Oh, dear, no, no, I don't like it. Or don't do it or I've got cold feet or, um whatever, whatever. [00:32:00] And And we talked a wee bit quite a lot, obviously, about what it meant to be homosexual, But we also trying to fit that into their social. So, you know, you're an engineer. Wow, That must be a Well, yes, So But I've got a lot of mates, you know, people are quite easily relaxed. If no relaxed is the wrong word, none of them were were relaxed. They all knew that they were putting. Speaking of something [00:32:30] which, when I thought about it, they had maybe never said to anybody you know and here. Were we a public eye and And I could understand that you will be somewhat hesitant when you did this and wondering whether you were risking. You don't know your kids, your friends, your job, your life, even having to go away and live somewhere else if this was revealed and that was a genuine apprehension. [00:33:00] And gosh, I so admired them for putting that risk to one side and going ahead with it. And not one ducked or dived or or lied as far as I can remember, you know, and nobody was there to be posing. Or so Yeah. What am I What were they apprehensive about? Yeah. 00, I'm sorry. The other thing we did, we guaranteed [00:33:30] them those. And we used false names. That I mean I mean, it was kind of Fred rather than Harry or whatever. Was there anything in those interviews that surprised you? Hm? I think most of all was a pleasant surprise, which was a surprise that the self confidence [00:34:00] within them, um, you know, the kind of picture that that people had read about to the extent they read about it was people who were shamed and seeking ways out and looking for treatment, which might or is there a way or why have I been, you know, made to to live this way and regret and anguish where there wasn't any [00:34:30] anguish? You know, nobody was bemoaning what they'd had to do. They were just talking about the reality of living like so they were over any kind of, uh, has been through an awful lot themselves working out what they were doing and why. And that strength came through. And that was wonderful. That so And it surprised me. I thought a few might have sort of cowed away or regretted, [00:35:00] or and there was never any question of that, which was lovely. I haven't seen, uh, the programme. Are you able to describe, um, how it finally came together? What did it look like, what was in it? But I just, um I. I got to refresh myself with that because I couldn't remember. I can remember shooting a little sequence which we made up, which we used to put voice over on. And it was [00:35:30] about, um, a couple of men making contact with each other, uh, via subterfuge in a public hotel or some such. You know, uh, and we had a couple of actors, and, uh, they made contact with each other and then moved off together. And over this, we we needed something where we could say what we knew, which was the state of the law here. The estimated number of people [00:36:00] who were practising homosexuals and likely to be by international comparisons. And what else did we put up there? Something or other. Oh, and we would also have talked about young and and about the, um the societies and the approaches that will be to show that we weren't just doing something else. You know, there was a public beginning of a of a an interest in change, and that that worked quite well. [00:36:30] We were a bit scared of guying it, but they seem to find it, OK? And Barry said it was all right. And that was when you say it, What does that mean? That you know, you, you over it or you Yeah. I mean, you're misrepresented by overacting it or, you know, you put up some peculiar gay idea. If you like the kind of gay pride [00:37:00] stuff that we do now, which has people kind of flaunting and jumping. We weren't any of that. We were quite the reverse. You know, these were a couple of men who bumped into each other in a in a pub having a beer, Uh, which was much more the way of things in the sixties. And so there was nothing flamboyant about it or efforts to present or you know what I mean, That sort of stuff, that that makes sense. Absolutely. So in the finish programme, how [00:37:30] many, uh, interviewees. How many participants did you have? But I would think 10 million something of that order. But when you see this programme, you got it wrong. I'm sorry. I know I don't think it'll be more than 10. It's quite remarkable that you were able to get back. It was, and we had a number of meetings where we were there and others would come along. And I think they took strength from each other so that we'd say, Well, we're going [00:38:00] to shoot in here now. So and so if you just keep quiet and they would see what and presumably each felt strengthened by the presence of the other because we said if you if you'd rather we just did it all on our own without anybody else. But nobody ever complained about that. So the kind of brotherhood was, if anything strengthened and I think it was useful in the filming, I'm really interested in in the the reaction to the programme when it was broadcast, particularly [00:38:30] now that you're saying that, uh, the participants came across as quite comfortable and and strengthened in their their ideas when the kind of prevailing mood at the time was This is something you should be ashamed of. What was the audience reaction like? Well, I don't know that I ever heard that picked up on, but I think it's a my own kind of editorial. Judgement on [00:39:00] it is that was a huge strength because this was not something you could dismiss as a standard ordinary, pure. You know, you can't say Oh, but you know, you, their intensity and their serious commitment to what they were telling you made it obviously true and reliable and not to be ignored or dismissed. So I that's that's my view [00:39:30] of it now. I never heard anybody say that because we did get some pretty good response I have I have to say generally, you know, those days people wrote in that was what you did programme of so and so. And we got a fair number of that. And I was You always looked out for the press reviews. So I found one which I, I can I read it out to you. I only read good ones. So this [00:40:00] comes from Oh, this was the listener review, right? The compass programme on the homosexual laws can take its rightful place among the best documentaries from anywhere. Well, that makes you smile. And here's the tablet which was the Roman Catholic? Probably still is, I don't know, Roman Catholic magazine, a difficult subject which compass [00:40:30] dealt with carefully and with restraint. If more positive action follows, this programme will have more than justified itself, which is quite quite nice because they're saying we are the tablet we are the conservative core of And if you decide to do something in parliament, you know we're with you so that those were two kind of pieces of paper that we cut out and were proud of. [00:41:00] But any number of mates said, Wow, yeah, you know, thank you. Both hadn't realised, Um and that was that was very warming. And And we didn't receive any reports of adverse reaction from the participants now, whether that was just their general courtesy and I don't know, but nobody said, Oh, my God. You know, I was scared when when I went to work the next day or whatever, [00:41:30] they might have been slightly apprehensive because who knows which always increases the value of the programme if there's a risk in it. And there was a lot, a lot of risk in this, I think. Mm. And we should have actually pointed out at the start that it's my understanding this is like one of the first, if not the first programmes on homosexuality in New Zealand on in broadcast media. Yeah, I think so. [00:42:00] It may have been the odd radio, but January in those days radio was essays by the opinionated, you know, all the well informed to do them justice. Um, so I imagine somebody may have mentioned it along the way, but I, I had not seen or heard anything which took you in any depth into the life of a homosexual or the difficulties and the benefits, Um, [00:42:30] such as they were. But, I mean, it was a fulfilled life there, which is worth acknowledging anyway. So, uh, no, I think we were, and I I kind of claimed later on. Of course, it took a long time after that. We had to get another couple before we got Fran Wild and we got all I have a whole heap of stuff going on, but eventually I remember going to the civil Union celebration of a couple of gay [00:43:00] friends and going, Hey, we pulled it off, and that would have been 20 years later. Yeah, and that was just just lovely. Yeah. So after producing the programme, had your views on homosexuality changed? Yeah. Yep, I think so. I I It was more widespread than I had appreciated. Um, just because I didn't move in those C it was greatly and also, [00:43:30] um, in in Well, as you know, in in the radio and television and stuff like that. People have all kinds of lives, and that's fine. It's good. Whatever you whatever you like. So it hadn't been a matter apart from it. And the injustice, the fundamental injustice of applying stupid ancient laws and and know that that, you know, that angered me. So I did know and I hadn't realised that [00:44:00] is how. And I hadn't realised the strength that people had to show to live that life in whatever such a huge way. Um and that that was good. Good for me to find that out. Do you think that programme influenced subsequent, uh, homosexual law reform activities or attitudes? I do. Yeah. I mean, because telly [00:44:30] I, I always maintain television is not a good medium for changing things, But it's a good medium for saying, Look at this. I wonder if we should be doing something about it. And that in large part springs from this kind of programming. You know, I, I haven't much time for television campaigns that say you should all learn. Or here is such a shocking, horrific thing that you must immediately know that that's [00:45:00] an abuse of it, especially public television in which we were and how. And I wish we still were more. But that's by the way, um and and yes, I mean, you can almost see there's a progression, isn't there that the small group of people realise what's happening. And they try and persuade the government the government doesn't want to know because it's ill informed and it's got other things to do. You waste your time. A few more people continue to research. Things come in from overseas, and then another [00:45:30] bid is made. And And in this case, of course, it took a lot longer than it should have done, of course, but it did get there. But if we hadn't kicked the door open as it were, it would take longer. Or it wouldn't have happened because you wouldn't know. Um, you know, if there were opponents to change to people who thought we shouldn't do anything about the bloody queers and they never said so maybe we'd scare the bugger off, [00:46:00] which would please me. You know, they could realise that they're dealing with a serious matter here. And it wasn't something you just went. Ah, forget about it. Uh, so, yeah, I would have been probably more proud than I ought to be of that. But can I tell you now? That thing I was gonna say when I was at university, um, in Britain, a good mate of mine was Alan Alan Wilford and we all knocked around together. And we played [00:46:30] sports together one thing or another. And I happened to end up for no reason that I can really think of. Except that the local vicar signed me into in a theological college. They were Most of my Conor were going on to be ordained. There were about a dozen of us who were assault who weren't. And then, uh So I went to Alan and we both went through and took our degrees and went away. And then a year or two later, [00:47:00] I went to see Alan in Oxford at his next college. The ordination. How you doing? Great. He said Great. So when are you gonna get ordained? He said I'm not. He said. Well, one of the things I've discovered here is I'm pretty certain I'm homosexual, and the risk is too great. I. I can't. Um yeah. I can't risk what the church might make of or what [00:47:30] disappointment I might face if I so I'm gonna go. Oh, yeah. Silly old bugger. I said, whoa! Jeez. Come on, let's go and have a beer. We were in a beer and we talked about other things and I was a huge sense of failure that I was never able to comprehend what Alan had realised and was then facing and I kind of dismissed it and I thought I failed him as a friend and I felt in some [00:48:00] small way that when we made that programme that the debt had been at least acknowledged.

IRN: 3394
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/crossing_the_lines.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004610
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089904
TITLE: Crossing the Lines
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Brent Coutts; Stuart Pearce
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1920s; 1930s; 1940s; 1950s; 1ZB (radio); Adolf Hitler; Aotearoa New Zealand; Archives New Zealand; Auckland; BBC; Brent Coutts; Crossing the Lines (book); Douglas Morison; Dunedin; Egypt; El Alamein; Emma Vickers; Fiji; Harold Robinson; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Human Rights Act (1993); Jack Marshall; John Crawford; Kippenberger Research Library (Waiouru); Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Mono Island (Solomon Islands); Mount Albert Grammar School; NZDF Personnel Archives and Medals (PAM) - Trentham Military Camp; New Caledonia; New Zealand Army; New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF); Noel Hulme; Norfolk Island; Ohakune; One of the Boys: Homosexuality in the Military during World War II (book); Otago University Press; OverWatch (NZ Defence Force); Pacific; Papua New Guinea; Paul Jackson; Peter Rule; Phil Jay; Queen and Country: Same-Sex Desire in the British Armed Forces, 1939–45 (book); Rainbow Tick; Ralph Dyer; Royal New Zealand Air Force; Royal Society Te Aparangi teaching fellowship; Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar; Solomon Islands; Stuart Pearce; The Kiwi Concert Party; Tom Martin; Tui Concert Party; Victory Loan campaign; Wally Prictor; William Dove; World War 2; army; batman (military); civil rights; comedy; conscription; discrimination; dresses; female impersonation; homosexual; homosocial; inclusion; indecent act; marriage; navy; queer
DATE: 20 November 2020
YEAR: 2020
LOCATION: Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar, 176 Cuba Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Kia Ora. Good evening. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Firstly, a big thank you to Scotty and Mel for allowing us to use this venue for tonight's event. And some of you I know. For those who don’t know, my name is Stu [Pearce]. I’m one of the Commanding Officers up at Ohakea, which is the Air Force Base just up-the-road in the Manawatu. I'm also a member of the OverWatch LGBT IQ support group that we've had in the Defence Force for a number of years right now. Today, the New Zealand Defence Force is arguably one of the most progressive militaries in the world. We're a world leader in LGBT inclusion, we are ‘Rainbow Tick’ accredited, and we've got a number of awards for the support that we provide all of our diverse people that we have serving for us. If you remember the LGBT community, you can serve in any branch of the Army, the Navy, Air Force, or civilian staff, and do so openly and with pride. But, it hasn't always been this way. And up in the years preceding the 1993 Human Rights Act, which essentially repealed the ban on open gay service in the military. And certainly, in the years leading up to the Homosexual Reform Act, being LGBT IQ in the New Zealand Defence Force was not easy. We know that the policies and the culture of the time destroyed careers. In some very sad cases, it destroyed lives. And we know the story of people like Squadron Leader Peter Rule who, very sadly, committed suicide after he was outed, and then ousted from the military, and couldn't reconcile the loss of his career and everything with what had happened to him. So, because of that culture, and because of the climate of the time, stories about our queer military history in New Zealand are extremely rare, which is why this book, I believe, aside from being just a beautifully written story and account of some gay soldiers during the Second World War, is actually, I believe, a groundbreaking historical document that I think should be in every library in the country. So, I'm not going to say any more about the book, because that's Brent's domain. So, without any further ado, I will pass out Brent, and you have control. [00:02:24] Thank you Stu for your introduction. So, I've written a book, ‘Crossing The Lines’, which was published by Otago University Press this year, and I’m really pleased that they have had the bravery to put themselves behind my writing and this book. Historians are always interested in historical relationships between past and present. There's always the danger in LGBTQ history of being seduced by this kind of teleological progression as things have gotten better in the trend of inclusion with the extension of civil rights. And we need to remember that it was never inevitable that the present is as it is today. Where we are near where we are now is contingent. It's dependent on a number of factors happening. However, we do have an enviable situation. And I want to acknowledge that at the beginning of my talk tonight. Since 1993, openly serving LGBT have been included in our military, supported by OverWatch, which is the organisation within our Defence Force who organised tonight. And by 2014, New Zealand was being recognised as having the most inclusive military force in the world. And I think that's something that needs to be acknowledged, and something that we should be proud of as citizens of New Zealand. So, I just wanted to start with acknowledging what's happened, and of course, since what I haven't got there [on the PowerPoint] is that yes, in 2019 they also received a ‘Rainbow Tick’ recognising inclusion within the military forces. So researching and writing ‘Crossing The Lines’ was, I must say [00:04:24] it was a 10 year endeavour, and I must pay respect to those in Wellington who encouraged me, and particularly the Ministry of Defence Historian John Crawford, staff at LAGANZ - The Lesbian and Gay Archive New Zealand, which is within the Alexander Turnbull [Library], the Alexander Turnbull in general, Archives New Zealand, and the Defence Force Archive at Trentham Military Camp. And much thanks to Stu from OverWatch for providing me with this photo which appears on the book. The wedding photo, the first same sex wedding on a military base in New Zealand, which I want to acknowledge. And also thanks for the Royal Society who are also based in Wellington. They gave me a fellowship that allowed me to have a whole year to read, and to think, and that was in 2009 and that was the time that I initiated the research into this this project. I hope that this book ‘Crossing the Lines’ has and will add to New Zealand to the histories of homosexuals in World War Two military history. We have a series the books that that exist. Allan Bérubé wrote [Coming Out under Fire] in 1991, about the situation for [USA] gay and lesbians and World War Two. Paul Jackson has produced ‘One of the Boys’ in 2004 [about Canadian soldiers]. Emma Vickers, a more academic book [‘Queen and Country’] about British soldiers. Yorick Smaal, his book [‘Sex, Soldiers and the South Pacific’] is about Australian soldiers, particularly from Brisbane and Queensland, and their time in Papua New Guinea. So, I'm hoping that what I've produced adds to that literature. And in a way my findings do confirm a number of findings that they also agree with; that war was a formative time and experience and a turning point in 20th century gay and lesbian history; that homosexual soldiers were able to carve out queer spaces and create a queer subculture despite the rigours and the rigidity of the military. While the past is often described as ‘a place of unremitting homophobia’, to quote [historian James] Belich, I suggest that many men are able to find ways to manoeuvre around this and live their lives fully, to live full lives as homosexual men. So, in doing so, I thought to provide evidence within our nation's history for gay men, particularly gay men within the Armed Forces today, of what one might term, a ‘common DNA’ for them. [00:07:19] The history I have written ended up with a focus on three men, Ralph Dyer, Douglas Morrison, and Harold Robinson. They termed themselves ‘homosexual men’ and I use that word, although it's a little bit outdated now. And the temptation is to use the word ‘queer’ I guess in modern literature. But when I interviewed Harold and Douglas, it was definitely that they were homosexual men. And in fact, Harold was very insistent, ‘I'm not gay, I'm homosexual’. And he saw a really distinct difference in those terms. And so words matter, and I decided to honour them by using the words that they use to self-describe. They provide the central story for this history. They were drafted into the war. They all performed in concert parties providing entertainment for the troops. The books narrative spans from the childhood in the early 1920s, to about 1959. In the last chapter, though, I do discuss the historical significance of this history and make references to those historical relationships between past and present, connecting to the post-war gay liberation movement in the 1970s where there was direct action protest at ANZAC Day ceremonies, and to the New Zealand Defence Force off-today regarding the significant changes that have taken place within the armed forces. So, the decision to start before and continue after the war I think is really important. So rather than showing the war years in isolation, which is what many historians do, I wanted to integrate them into a narrative of the whole of their lives. So, hearing about their formative lives, their youth, their family life, their training, and drama and dance, sort of lays the foundation for their experiences as homosexual men and performers as entertainers in the New Zealand military. All three already acknowledged and were comfortable with their homosexual identity before the war. And they were very happy in pre-war queer communities. There were three young queer men integrated into the communities in which they lived; integrated into the pre-war queer communities in Dunedin and Auckland. I particularly loved uncovering the life of Harold Robinson in Dunedin. He was a rather precocious boy I think, elocution lessons, singing, the Competition Society, ballet lessons, theatre. It was theatre in particular that opened up connections with other young homosexual men. He's a working-class boy from South Dunedin and he accessed culture in a really big way. His pre-war boyfriend is Roland Watson - here they are at Warrington, just north of Dunedin, and I must say those swimming togs [in the PowerPoint photo] are homemade by Harold [who was] very proud of them. And I think they would have been very special at that point. Not sure how many other men in Otago before World War Two were wearing a swimming costume like that. So, Howard Robinson ends up in the 36 Battalion, which is 8th Brigade in the Pacific; first serving in Fiji, then in Norfolk Island which the 36 Battalion garrisoned, New Caledonia and then Guadalcanal and the Treasuries in the Solomon Islands. It's the 36th Battalion who made the first opposed landing of New Zealand troops since Gallipoli at Falamai on Mono Island in the Solomons. And Harold and his boyfriend provide a queer presence in that really an important event in our nation's military history. World War Two is a time of total war. It meant conscription was introduced in New Zealand on the 22nd of July 1940, and with that a really diverse cross section of individuals is drawn into the army, for the sake of this greater [00:11:45] cause. They had to work together, and swept up in the war along with other men there age there is no hint that these men wanted to avoid service. They wanted to serve. They wanted to do their part. I think most homosexual men in the New Zealand military forces at this time, as far as I've seen from my research, escape any victimization. The conscripted army - the conscripted citizens army had, to an extent, to be inclusive. So in this respect, homosexual men found that there was a place for them within the military forces. Harold found himself in two roles in the war in the Pacific, he was the Batman to Major John Marshall, who later becomes their future Prime Minister john Marshall. [Audience member question: Did he know about him?] Well, I'm not sure. But a Batman is like a personal servant to an officer, shaves him, gets him dressed, organises his quarters, brings him drinks and food, takes messages to others. And this is an intriguing relationship, the conservative Marshall, and he was a very conservative Prime Minister if you know your political history, with a very flamboyant camp Batman. At the same time, there's a second role for Robinson and the Batman role gives them time to do this. He's a female impersonator in the Tui Concert Party, which is the 36 Battalions entertainment troupe. Harold attained what British historian Emma Vickers calls a ‘good fellow status’ within the unit. This not only signified acceptance, value and a sense of belonging, but it also led to the unit protecting the homosexual soldier. Harold had a very outgoing personality that led to the acceptance as ‘one of the lads’. Robinson would entertain his Brigade, his humour and quick wit would bring a bring a laugh onstage and offstage. And his physical appearance; he’s got a fit, healthy, strong, muscular body; he's got an enthusiasm to fit in. He worked hard to become a good shot when handling a gun. And that led to unit respecting him. In fact he became the fifth best shot using a Tommy Gun - that's a Thompson machine gun - in his unit. So, for Harold, mateship was seen as a really important value. And Harold Robinson was a loyal mate for everyone in his units. Some homosexual sexual soldiers could have been shunned by their peers, ostracised, and found the experience during this period of Total War a very negative one. But others like Harold would have worked very hard to fit in and become accepted by their unit. Robertson could give a really cutting retort back to anyone who challenged him on his sexuality. He was not someone to mess with. So, a key theme in the book that I illustrate is the ability of men to integrate into communities of servicemen; of homosexual men to integrate into these communities of servicemen, despite official hospitality towards same sex, love and desire. Harold was never a good looking woman though. This image, which is in an album of photos that Ralph Dyer gifted to the Alexander Turnbull Library, shows Harold at the Tui Concert Party. Harold is dressed as a woman on the left. Harold was always very proud of his legs from all that ballet dancing, and there they are on display. [00:15:47] The Batman role gave him enough time to design his own dresses and prepare for the to the concerts. On the left is dressed as Mae West during the battalions time on Norfolk Island. That's from Norfolk Island. And on the right, he's dressed as Carmen Miranda while in New Caledonia. In the unit there just happened to be a soldier who had worked making wax models at the Auckland Museum. And so was able to fashion some wax fruit for his head. Harold's ‘camp name’, given to him by other gay soldiers was Helena, after Helena Rubenstein, who they all considered to be the ugliest woman in the world at the time. She may have been the richest woman in the world, but she is pretty ugly! So it's a joke that Harold never presented himself as a beautiful woman. He had a rather large nose and he just doesn't really pull it off. The costumes are made out of just scraps of material. Some of them are parachute material, some of them are foil from planes. Whatever they could get their hands on, although they did get latter-on, costumes sent up from New Zealand as people heard what they were doing and people would send up spare dresses for them. Here is at the Coral Digger shows. They were performed on the Treasury Islands; that’s Stirling and Mono Island in the Solomon Islands. I love the fact that the stage is in the jungle with this giant rock beside it and a tree growing in the middle of the of the area they're performing in. During the war Harold’s lover at the time was Bob Murphy, another soldier in his battalion. Here they are pictured together in military uniform, and it's probably the only picture we have of a same-sex couple in World War Two in uniform. Bob was a beer drinking, rugby playing soldier from Ohakune. His nickname was ‘Spud’, from Ohakune, yes. Homosexual men found ways to manoeuvre their private lives during wartime military service and pursued their sexual interests. Being away from home and the scrutiny of family and community opened up a space that gave them freedom that they might never have had back in their community. And I think that's certainly the case for Bob Murphy. The context of homosociality within the military forces is a key theme throughout the book. The homosocial nature of relationships within the military during wartime means that the bonds between men were often very, very close, so that intense intimacy led to profound friendships - mateship bonds between men on an interpersonal and platonic level - but these bonds could also provide a cover for sexual intimacy between men. For some men this social environment led them to experiences that you might define as ‘situational homosexuality’; the experience for that particular moment, at that particular place. For others, though, it would have confirmed the nature of their sexual desire. David Wildey was a young 21-year-old homosexual soldier from Christchurch. He's left us a very large collection of diaries, letters and photographs that are in the Hocken Library in Dunedin. He's got about 58 folders of material. He's a hoarder of everything! He has copies of every letter he sent and every letter he received. And his diaries. His 1943 diary chronicles his sexual relationship in New Caledonia with Charles Darkie Boyd, who's a soldier from Dunedin. And it's interesting that Wildey describes Boyd - the only picture we have of Boyd is this rather blurry picture here - he describes him as straight. He acknowledges that, so I think Boyd is a very good example of ‘situational homosexuality’. Boyd marries within a year of returning back to New Zealand. What is clear is that homosexual men were reasonably successful in creating these kind of satisfying sexual relationships and close to fictional bonds. And I see that again and again [in the research]. [00:20:20] Here's the controversial one: it was Brigadier Dove who David Wildey went to when he wanted to be posted to the Forward Area to be reunited with Darkie Boyd. Boyd’s sent up to the Solomon Islands to fight the Japanese and David Wildey finds it very difficult to be separated from his first love. Brigadier Dove was Second-in-Command of the Pacific Campaign after Brigadier Barrowclough. He's the second most senior figure in the Pacific Campaign. He's a figure though that's well known in pre-war queer and post-war queer circles in Auckland, He's living a double life. Maybe he's a homosexual man who has been … who has felt that he has to have a wife. He e has a wife and two daughters, a house in Remuera on Victoria Avenue. Perhaps it's the marriage of convention, but he's well known by the soldiers and homosexual soldiers had a really complicated relationship with Dove. He's a potential ally. He helps out gay soldiers who get in trouble with the American authorities. Yet the power and authority he wielded was wearily regarded, especially when he used his position to gain sexual favours. Robinson who, while still in uniform, rebuffs Dove’s sexual advances, considered him a creep. When interviewing him when he's in his 90s, it's like, ‘Dove, oh that creep’. Dove was in a really difficult position I think. The mateship and camaraderie among homosexual men requires a certain amount of levelling that clashed with Dove’s position of authority. And reconciling the two would have been really quite difficult. It would also make them a figure of fun and the butt of many jokes. Morrison, who first met Dove when he was still a colonel, in January 1943, and it's one of the very few times he used shorthand in his diary, and as sort of a secret code I guess. I guess, he assumed not many people could read shorthand, and he secretly records his impression. He says, ‘Meeting the colonel, who was not as pleasant as I expected - in fact, a monster.’ Three days later, he remarks in his diary, ‘Our old friend Colonel Dove’ - a bit sarcastic there as he only met him three days before – ‘Our old friends Colonel Dove visited the camp, Ron making facetious remarks on his presence.’ Wildey wrote down a joke in his diary made by an Auckland gay man who knew Dove before the war - a man called John Waldie - in his diary in 1943. He writes, “Billy Dove, your name is in the book, but I've got the book.” And I think that indicates the men’s understanding that they too had something to hold over Dove. Wildey is a very lowly hospital orderly. He is in no way important. But he's successful in getting this transfer from Dove to the front line to be reunited with Darkie Boyd, which is extraordinary in itself. Dove appears in many gay men’s queer phone address-books in the archives, in the postwar years. He kept up contact with many of the soldiers he met. He later corresponds with and invites Wildey to his holiday home at Lake Taupo for a ‘men’s weekend’; an invitation that Wildey accepted and Dove pays for the trip for Wildey and a friend, another gay friend of his from Christchurch, to come on up for that weekend. Which is an intriguing relationship. I'll let you to make your own conclusions. During the war, Ralph Dyer and Douglas Morison, both from Auckland, were in the Pacific Kiwi Concert Party. They were touring New Caledonia, Vanuatu, and in the Solomon Islands. They were shows in Guadalcanal, Vella Lavella, the Treasuries, and then they actually got all the way up to Nissen Island in the Green Islands, which is north of Bougainville and part of Papua New Guinea today. They were the Pacific Kiwi Concert Party’s female impersonator. This [photo in PowerPoint] is Douglas in uniform; a very cis male figure. [00:25:04] I looked at their time growing up. This is Douglas. He attended Mount Albert Grammar. He's Louis XVI [in this image]. This other boy is called Ray Newdick, which I must say is the most unfortunate surname, seated beside him ass Marie Antoinette. In the right-hand image, Douglas is in the trench coat lining up for School Certificate. That’s the Year 11 exam for the younger members of the audience. Douglas played the very ‘plain-Jane’ female parts. He's the ‘girl-next-door’. He's the ‘mother figure’ in the skits. His camp name was Beulah. Beulah BBC. ‘BBC’ because he had a rather posh voice right to his last days. In fact, he briefly worked at on IZB radio in Auckland before being drafted. And I was very lucky because Harold was still in contact with Douglas. Douglas left New Zealand in 1944, as part of the reinforcements going to Cairo, Egypt. And he never returned. He really felt that he couldn't come back to New Zealand after the war and live as an openly gay man. And so, I was able to take a flight to London to interview him, and that was a real privilege. Then I later found a diary kept by Douglas during the war; kept by him in New Caledonia in 1942, and 1943. It is held in the Kippenberger Research Library at Waiouru Army Museum. So, there is a queer presence in the archives there. And they also hold many, many hundreds of letters sent by Douglas to two aunts that he liked who have kept all the letters and have given them to the Army Museum archives. I later contacted his sister in New Zealand, who was very little when he left and really had not much memory of him, and actually assumed he had died already. She still had a metal trunk. And we opened it up and inside were lots of programmes and ephemera from the concert parties. It was basically all his possessions that he had left in New Zealand in 1944. So as an historian you just kind of realise ‘I've struck gold’. ‘This is the treasure chest!’ Ralph Dyer was known to gay men in the army as Crystal or Chrysie. He played the sexy ‘Rita Hayworth type’ of glamorous woman for the Pacific Kiwi Concert Party. And in the Alexander Turnbull Library we've got this very large album of wartime photographs. He is probably the best known of the three men, because he joined the Middle East Kiwi Concert Party in the very last few months while they were in Italy at the time, and then coming back to New Zealand, in the post war period he toured with the postwar Kiwi Review. And it's the Kiwi Review Concert Party that a lot of people remember which toured Australia and New Zealand in the 1950s. There is a lot written about him in publicity merit material, but he's was ironically a very elusive to be able to research. But here he is [in the PowerPoint image], lacklustre sewing - I guess the materials in the humidity of the Pacific didn't last that long. The book is part biography, but it's also partly a detailed history of life in the wartime concert parties. In particular, it’s the first publication to talk about the Pacific Kiwi Concert Party and Tui Concert Party, and really the first book to discuss a queer perspective on those concert parties. One of my key historical narratives in the book is that even as they performed heterosexuality in the concert party shows, their homosexuality was there for those who were in the know or those who are in on the joke. Here's Douglas and Ralph in their military clothes. The makeshift stage - I love this picture because of the barrels underneath the stage holding it up. They often performed for American soldiers, so all dressed up in red, white and blue is the patriotic colours for performing in front of US soldiers. And they did a lot of comedy skits. Here we've got Ralph as Adolph Hitler. In a really interesting skit called ‘Nutziland’, as in New Zealand with [nutty] Nazis. During the war, the three men become really close friends. They keep meeting up, even though Harold is in the 36 Battalion they intersect constantly. It’s a story of wartime mateship between all three men. They also became friends with many other New Zealand homosexual men, as well as American soldiers. And here in the picture on the left, you can see a gay American soldier with the dog-tags on - I must say he has the best fingernails you've ever seen anyone go to war with. [00:30:38] I don’t know how he has his manicured so well. Homosexual men found each other during the war. Sometimes I think the groups were facilitated through the pre-war links that they had. But another way of course, I argue, is that they formed around the female impersonators in the concert party. The entertainment units offer a focal point for meeting other homosexual men. And that included those American queer soldiers. Douglas recorded soldiers passing notes to him through the window of the vehicle, asking to meet up the next day. So American soldiers would pass these notes and of course they do meet up. An American soldier named Hal Schaeffer came up to the camp when they were in Nouméa in 1943, sees the show, stays behind, goes backstage introduces himself to Morrison. Morison writes in his diary that he found Schaeffer ‘a very nice boy and exceedingly interesting’ on that day. The next day, after an afternoon show at the Red Cross Hut at Camp Barnes, Morison met up with Schaeffer again and they head into Nouméa. They go to Le Grand Theatre and go a film. They go to a coffee house. And Morrison writes in his diary, ‘We romanced until it was time for me to return to camp’. Morison is obviously smitten. In fact, at the very end of the diary that day he wrote, ‘The spell is broken - the day means little else to me’. And he spends the week meeting up constantly with Hal Schaeffer before they then of course are moved away on tour back up to the front line. When New Zealand soldiers are withdrawn from the Pacific, all three men come back to New Zealand. They do a series of wartime shows in Auckland, at the Town Hall. But they even come down to Wellington here and they help with the victory loan fundraising campaign. It was all about raising money for the war effort. And they performed at Victory Corner in Wellington and they sold kisses to men for 10 bob a time. I don’t know how that worked. That's Victory Corner there [in the PowerPoint photo] and here they are on stage. It’s the junction of Featherston and Hunter Street at Lambton Quay. Later all three men get sent to Egypt as part of the reinforcements. They find themselves placed in the Pay Corps. Ralph is posted up to the Middle East Kiwi Concert Party in Italy. Douglas remains in the Pay Corps, but actually gets himself posted to Italy and gets to be discharged in London. Harold and Ralph do return to New Zealand. But very quickly, they both decide they want to leave. After the war, Harold first, then Ralph, joined Douglas in London. Douglas is doing repertory in London. Harold gets one of the very first Returned Servicemen's Bursaries. With that bursary, he travels to London to study at the Sadler’s Wells Ballet School. Ralph follows to do a theatre design course. And they flat together in London. So, this is a continuing story of their friendship in the post-war years. Throughout the book, I've tried to widen the historical lens to take in the stories of other homosexual New Zealand soldiers. And I think that's a really important decision, as it allows us to see Robinson, Morrison and Dyer in a larger social and cultural context, to be able to compare and contrast the lives and experiences with other men. At end of the book writing process, the book actually contains fifty named-homosexual New Zealand men who were in military service in the war. It is the search for the needle in the haystack, but we found quite a few ‘needles’ there I think. There's thirty-six named and profiled in a little bit of detail at the back. Ten from the Judge Advocate General's court martial records remain unnamed as the provision for use of those records is that they remain anonymous. The Judge Advocate General's files are held on Wellington at Archives New Zealand. What's surprising is that, firstly, the records are very fragmentary. The military did not systematically bring all the records back here. But in the surviving records that we have, there's very few cases. [00:35:37] Homosexual indecency cases - there are fourteen charges in the surviving files that involve only ten New Zealand men; five men charged in New Zealand, one in Lebanon, two on the HMNZS Leander which was in the Mediterranean and two at Maadi Camp in Egypt. Four of these were from the Navy, three were from the army, and three were from the Air Force. One would expect, for a start, more cases from the army due to its size compared to the other forces. So, there's a few questions that poses about what does this mean. Have we got a very tolerant military force that doesn't prosecute anybody? I think, when I was thinking through this, the men might simply have been dealt with informally by their commanders who issued summary punishments. You know, so they admit their offence, and they accept detention, confinement to barracks, maybe extra guard duties or fines, without really any formal proceedings. And I think that was probably often a very pragmatic approach, because it allows the officer in charge to limit the effect, first on the individual, but also limit the effect on the unit. The lack of records may also indicate that many officers were prepared to overlook same-sex behaviour. I think there may have been a degree of unofficial tolerance among officers who were dealing with incidents and dealing with them in an informal way to avoid the removal of that man from the war effort. It is a huge loss to bring someone that has been trained in particular skills - to bring them all the way back to New Zealand. A court martial sentence was read out to the accused men’s unit. And that threat and its corresponding humiliation might have acted as a deterrent for men and meant that they were more discreet in their behaviour. I think that often though, what the court martial files show is that this often may have been dependent also on the personality of those involved, particularly dependent on how well the offending soldier had integrated into the unit and his value. The case of the X-ray technician in Lebanon who had skills that were probably too valuable to lose from the war effort. He is found guilty, serves time in prison in Cairo, but is released long before his the length of his sentence has expired - and is reposted very quickly to another hospital, where he can continue to thing without anyone knowing what he'd been up to. Two others. ‘Pat and Mike’ from the 5th Field Park Regiment. They're buried together on the El Alamein battlefield. They're mentioned but by the first names - they come from a memoir by soldier called Reginald De Graves who’s got a series of memoirs held at the Auckland War Memorial Museum archive. Mike's killed by German butterfly bombs and Pats grief leads him to suicide. That's one of the really affecting stories that I’ve uncovered. These images are of the homosexual men in the Middle East Kiwi Concert Party. We've got Walter Prictor, and Phil Jay. And the other soldiers that are not in the picture there is Tom Martin. And with Tom Martin there's a nice link because he later ends up flatting with Harold, Douglas and Ralph in London. Apart from ‘Pat and Mike’ who died at El Alamein, I did uncover Noel Hulme. He's really the only other homosexual New Zealand man I found who was killed in action. [00:39:53] Of course, there will be others who are not in the historical records - that we just we just don't know. [00:40:01] Hulme was killed at Minqar Qaim in the Western Desert. The pre-war photograph of him, taken in Christchurch with his pre-war boyfriend, Laurie McIlroy, who served in the Air Force -he was posted up to Canada. The photo on the right is off Hulme in uniform in Egypt in Cairo. Historians are interested in the historical relationships between change and continuity. One of the key themes I emphasise is that of continuity between the wartime experiences, and the pre-war lives of Robinson, Morrison and Dyer. And this continuity allows them to bring, I think, a sense of personal confidence, courage and creativity to their wartime experiences, and made the difference in how they reviewed and accepted by others. I hope that I've shown how they're able to bring their queerness home in the midst of the war, when they performed in New Zealand between deployments. And I think that continuity continues in the post-war lives. My aim was to honour these men in my writing, by constructing valid lives - valid lives that in themselves are full of joy and more than a little bit of sex -although some of its pushed into the footnotes, but it's there! In the end, it's a bittersweet story of these three men who self-empowered, construct themselves a good life in an indifferent world. And I think, all three of them had a good war. World War Two was a good war for them. So, thank you for coming along. Thanks to OverWatch and Stu [Pearce] for inviting me here tonight. And the bar for hosting. I hope I sparked your interest in military history. And I hope I sparked your interest in LGBT history. There are a lot more stories that need to be researched and a lot more stories that need to be written in our New Zealand history.

IRN: 3394
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/crossing_the_lines.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004610
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089904
TITLE: Crossing the Lines
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Brent Coutts; Stuart Pearce
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1920s; 1930s; 1940s; 1950s; 1ZB (radio); Adolf Hitler; Aotearoa New Zealand; Archives New Zealand; Auckland; BBC; Brent Coutts; Crossing the Lines (book); Douglas Morison; Dunedin; Egypt; El Alamein; Emma Vickers; Fiji; Harold Robinson; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Human Rights Act (1993); Jack Marshall; John Crawford; Kippenberger Research Library (Waiouru); Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Mono Island (Solomon Islands); Mount Albert Grammar School; NZDF Personnel Archives and Medals (PAM) - Trentham Military Camp; New Caledonia; New Zealand Army; New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF); Noel Hulme; Norfolk Island; Ohakune; One of the Boys: Homosexuality in the Military during World War II (book); Otago University Press; OverWatch (NZ Defence Force); Pacific; Papua New Guinea; Paul Jackson; Peter Rule; Phil Jay; Queen and Country: Same-Sex Desire in the British Armed Forces, 1939–45 (book); Rainbow Tick; Ralph Dyer; Royal New Zealand Air Force; Royal Society Te Aparangi teaching fellowship; Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar; Solomon Islands; Stuart Pearce; The Kiwi Concert Party; Tom Martin; Tui Concert Party; Victory Loan campaign; Wally Prictor; William Dove; World War 2; army; batman (military); civil rights; comedy; conscription; discrimination; dresses; female impersonation; homosexual; homosocial; inclusion; indecent act; marriage; navy; queer
DATE: 20 November 2020
YEAR: 2020
LOCATION: Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar, 176 Cuba Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Good evening. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Um, firstly, a big thank you to for allowing us to use this venue for tonight's event. Um, some of you I know. For those of you who don't my name is Stu. I'm one of the commanding officers up at the which is the Air Force Base just up the road at the man. Thank you. I'm also a member of the over LGBTI Q [00:00:30] support group that we've had in the defence force for a number of years. Right now, today, the New Zealand Defence Force is arguably one of the most progressive militaries in the world. We're a world leader in LGBT inclusion. We rainbow tick accredited and we've got a number of awards for the support that we provide all of our diverse people that we have serving for us. If you are a member of the LGBT community, you can serve in any branch of the army, the Navy, the Air Force, or our civilian staff, and do so openly and with pride. [00:01:00] But it hasn't always been this way and up in the years preceding the 1993 Human Rights Act which essentially repealed the ban on on open gay service in the military and certainly in the years leading up to the Homosexual Law Reform Act. Being LGBTI Q in the New Zealand defence force was not easy. We know that the policies and the culture of the time destroyed careers, and in some very sad cases it destroyed lives. And we [00:01:30] know of the story of people like squad leader Peter Rule, who very sadly committed suicide after he was outed and then ousted from the military and couldn't reconcile the loss of his career and everything with what had happened to him. So because of that culture and because of the the the climate of the time, stories about our queer military history in New Zealand are extremely rare. Which is why this book, I believe, aside from being just a beautifully written story and account [00:02:00] of some some gay soldiers during the Second World War, is actually I believe, a groundbreaking historical document that I think should be in every every library in the country. So I'm not going to say any more about the book because that's, uh, Brent's Brent's domain. So without any further ado, I will pass over to Brent, and you have control. Uh, thank you, Stu. Um, for for your introduction. Um, So, uh, [00:02:30] I've written a book crossing the lines, uh, which is published by Otago University Press this year. And, um, really pleased that, um they have, um, had the bravery to put themselves behind my writing. And this book. Um, historians are always interested in historical relationships between past and present. Um, there's always a danger in LGBT Q history of being seduced by this kind of tele teleological [00:03:00] progression. Uh, as things have gotten better in the trend for inclusion, uh, with the extension of civil rights and we need to remember that it was never inevitable that the present is as it is today, uh, where we are, where we are now is contingent. It's dependent on a number of factors happening. However, as, uh said, um, we do have an enviable situation, and I want to acknowledge that [00:03:30] at the beginning of my talk tonight, since 1993 openly serving LGBT have been included in our military supported by Overwatch, uh, which is the organisation within our defence force who have organised tonight. And, um, by 2014 New Zealand was being recognised as having the most inclusive military force in the world. And I think that's something that needs to be acknowledged and something that we should be proud of, as as citizens of New Zealand. [00:04:00] Um, so I just wanted to start with with acknowledging, um What we've what What's happened? Um, and of course, since, um, what I haven't got there is yes, uh, in 2019, they also received a rainbow tick recognising inclusion within the military forces. So researching and writing crossing the lines was, 00, and I must say, um um, it was a it was a 10 year endeavour. And, um, I must pay respect to those in Wellington who encourage me and particularly [00:04:30] the Minister. Ministry of Defence historian John Crawford staff at LA the Lesbian and Gay Archive New Zealand, which is within the Alexander Turnbull, the Alexander Turnbull, I guess in in General Archives New Zealand and the Defence Force Archive at Trentham Military Camp. And much thanks to, uh, from Overwatch for providing me with this photo which appears in the book Uh, the wedding photo, the first same sex wedding on a military base in New Zealand, uh, which I want to acknowledge. Um, and also thanks for the [00:05:00] royal Society, but who are also based in Wellington. Um, they gave me a fellowship that allowed me to have a whole year to read and to think. And that was in 2009. And that was the time that I initiated the research into this This, uh, project, Um, I hope that this book crossing the lines, um, has we will add New Zealand to the histories of harm homosexuals [00:05:30] in, uh, World War two military history. Uh, we have a a series of books that, um, that exist, uh, een, uh, wrote in 1991 about the situation for gay and lesbians in World War Two. Paul Jackson has produced, uh, one of the boys in 2004. Uh, Emma Vickers, a more academic book about, um, British British soldiers. Um, smell, uh, his book [00:06:00] is about, um uh, Australian soldiers, particularly from Brisbane and Queensland and their, um uh, their their their time in Papua New Guinea. So I'm hoping that, uh, what I've, um, produced adds to that literature. Um, and in a way, my findings do confirm a number of findings that they they also agree with, um that war was a formative, um, time and experience and a turning point [00:06:30] in 20th century gay and lesbian history that homosexual soldiers were able to carve out queer spaces and create a queer subculture despite the rigours and the rigidity of the military. Uh, while the past is often described as a place of unremitting homophobia to quote, uh, be, um I suggest that many men were able to find, uh, ways to manoeuvre around this and live their lives [00:07:00] fully to live, to live full lives as homosexual men. So in doing so, I sought to provide evidence within our nation's history for gay men, particularly gay men within the armed forces today of what one might term, um, a common DNA for them. So the history I have written, um, ended up with a focus on three men Ralph Dyer, Douglas Morrison and Harold [00:07:30] Robinson. So they turned themselves homosexual men. And I use that I use that word. Although it's a little bit, um, outdated now and and the the temptation is to use the word queer, I guess, um, in in modern literature. But when I interviewed um, Harold and Douglas, it was definitely they, um they were homosexual men, and in fact, Harold was very insistent. I am not gay, I'm homosexual, and he saw a really distinct difference in those terms. And so words matter, [00:08:00] and I decided to honour them by using the words they use to to self describe. So they provide the central story for this history. They were drafted into the war. They all performed in concert parties, uh, providing entertainment for the troops. And the book's narrative spans from their childhood in the early 19 twenties to about 1959. Uh, in the last chapter, though I do discuss the historical significance of this history and make reference to those historical [00:08:30] relationships between past and present connecting, uh, to the post war gay liberation movement in the 19 seventies, who, where there was direct action protests at ANZAC Day ceremonies, and to the New Zealand Defence Force of today regarding the significant changes that have taken place within the armed forces. So the decision to start, um before and continue after the war, I think, was really important. So rather than showing the war years [00:09:00] in isolation, which is what many historians do. I wanted to integrate them into a narrative of the whole of their lives. So hearing about their formative lives, their youth, their family life, their their training and drama and dance sort of lays the foundation for their experiences as homosexual men and performers as entertainers in the New Zealand military. All three are, um, already acknowledged and were comfortable with their homosexual identity [00:09:30] before the war. And they were very active in pre-war queer communities. Um, there were three young, uh, queer men integrated into the communities in which they lived, um, integrated into the pre-war queer communities in Dunedin and Auckland. Um, I particularly loved uncovering, um, the life of Harold Robinson in Dunedin. Um, he was a rather precocious boy, I think, um, elocution [00:10:00] lessons singing the competition Society, Ballet lessons theatre. Um, it was theatre in particular that opened up connections with other young homosexual men. He's a He's a working class boy from South Dunedin, and he access culture in a really big way. Um, his prewar boyfriend is Roller Watson. Here they are at Warrington, just north of Dunedin. Um, and I must say those bathing tos are homemade [00:10:30] by Harold. Very proud of them. And I think, um, they would have been very special at that point. Not sure how many other men in Otago, uh, before World War two were wearing, um, a swimming costume like that? Um, so Howard Robinson ends up in the 36th Battalion, which is eighth brigade in the Pacific. Uh, first serving in Fiji, uh, then in Norfolk Island, which the, um 36 battalion, [00:11:00] um, garrisoned New Caledonia and then Guadalcanal and the Treasuries in the Solomon Islands. Um, it's the 36th Battalion who made the first opposed landing of New Zealand troops since Gallipoli at in the on Mono Island in the Solomons. And Harold and his boyfriend provide a queer presence That, um, is a is is really an important event in our nation's military history. So I think World [00:11:30] War two is a time of total war. It meant, um, conscription was introduced in New Zealand on the 22nd of July 1940. And with that, a really diverse cross section of individuals is drawn into the army for the sake of this of this greater cause. They had to work together, um, and swept up in the war along with other men their age. There's no hint that these men wanted to avoid service. They they wanted to serve. They wanted to do [00:12:00] their part. I think most homosexual men in the New Zealand military forces. At this time, as I, as I've seen from my research escape any victimisation, this con con conscripted army, the conscripted citizens army had to an extent to be inclusive. So in this respect, uh, homosexual men found that there was a place for them within the military forces. Harold found himself in two roles in the war in the Pacific. He was the [00:12:30] Batman to Major John Marshall, who later becomes our future prime minister, John Marshall. Well, I'm not sure, but, um, a Batman is like a personal servant to an officer. Shaves him, gets him dressed, organises his quarters, brings him drinks and food, takes messages to others. Um, and it It is an intriguing relationship. The conservative Marshall And he was a very conservative prime minister. If you If you know your political history with [00:13:00] this very flamboyant camp Batman at the same time, there's a second role for Robinson. And, um, the Batman role gives him time to do this. Uh, he's a female impersonator in the two concert party, which is the 36 Battalions entertainment troupe. Harrell detained what British historian Emma Vickers calls a good fellow status within the unit. So this this [00:13:30] not only, um, signified acceptance, um, value and a sense of belonging, But it also led to the unit protecting the homosexual soldier. So Harold had a very outgoing personality that led to his acceptance as one of the lands. Uh, Robinson would entertain his, uh, his brigade. Uh, his humour and quick wit, uh, would bring a bring a laugh on stage and off stage in his [00:14:00] physical appearance. He's He's fit healthy, strong, muscular body. He's got an enthusiasm to fit in. Uh, he works hard to become a good shot when handling a gun. Uh, and that led to his unit, Um, respecting him. In fact, it became the fifth best shot, Uh, using a Tommy gun. That's a Thomson machine gun, uh, in his unit. So for Harold, mateship was seen as a really important value. Uh, and Harold Robinson was a loyal mate for [00:14:30] everyone in his unit. Some homosexual soldiers could have been shunned by their peers ostracised and found the experience during this period of total war. A very negative one. But others, like Harold, would have worked very hard to fit in and become accepted by their unit. Um, Robinson could get a really cutting retort back to anyone who challenged him on his sexuality. He was not someone to mess with. Um, so the a key theme in the book, [00:15:00] uh, that that I illustrate is the ability of men to integrate into communities of servicemen of homosexual men to integrate into these communities of servicemen despite official hostility towards same sex love and desire. Um, he was never a good looking woman, though, Um, this image, which is in an album of photos that Ralph Dyer left, [00:15:30] uh, to the Alexander Turnbull Library. Um, shows Harold at the concert party. Um, Harold is dressed as a woman is on the left. Um, Harold was always very proud of his legs from all that ballet dancing, and there they are on display. Um, the Batman role gave him enough time to design his own dresses and prepare for the two concerts on the left. He's dressed as May West during the Battalion's time on Norfolk Island. That's from Norfolk [00:16:00] Island. And on the right, he's dressed as Carmen Miranda while in New Caledonia. In the unit. There just happened to be, uh, a soldier who had worked making wax models at the, um Auckland Museum. And so I was able to fashion some wax fruit for his head. Um, Harold's camp name given to him by other gay soldiers was Helena after Helena Rubinstein, who they all considered to be the ugliest woman in the world at the time. Um, she may have been the richest [00:16:30] woman in the world, but she was she she is pretty ugly. Um, so it's a joke that Harold never presented himself as a as a beautiful woman. He had a had a rather large nose and just doesn't really pull it off. Um, the costumes are made out of, um, just scraps of material. Some some of them are parachute material. Some of them are. Are are foil from from, um, planes, um, whatever they could get their hands on. Although they did get later on costumes sent up from New Zealand as people heard [00:17:00] what they were doing and and people would send up the dress for them. Um, here he is at the Coral Digger shows they were performed on the Treasury islands. That's Sterling and Mono Island in the Solomon Islands. Um, I love the fact that the stage is is is in the jungle with this giant rock beside it and a tree growing in the middle of the of the area they're performing in, um, during the during the war. Harold's lover at the time [00:17:30] was Bob Murphy, another soldier in his battalion. Um, here they are pictured together in military uniform, and it's probably the only picture we have of a same sex couple in World War two in uniform. Um, Bob was a beer drinking, rugby playing soldier from Oui, His nickname was, uh, from yes. So homosexual men found ways to manoeuvre their private lives during the wartime military service and pursue [00:18:00] their sexual interests being away from home and the scrutiny of family and community, um, opened up a space. It gave them freedom that they might never have had back in their community. And, um, I think that's certainly the case for, um, Bob Murphy. The context of homo social, uh, within the military forces is a key theme throughout the book. So the homos social nature of relationships within the military, uh, [00:18:30] during war time meant that the bonds between men were often very, very close, so that intense intimacy led to profound friendships. So mateship bonds between men on an interpersonal and platonic level. But these bonds could also provide a cover for sexual intimacy between men. Um, some men. For some men, this homos social environment lead them to experiences that you might define as [00:19:00] situational homosexuality. Uh, the experience for that particular moment at that particular place. Um for others, though, it would have confirmed the nature of their desire. David Wy was a young 21 year old homosexual soldier from Christchurch. He's left us a a very large collection of diaries, letters and photographs that are in the Hocken library in Dunedin. He's got about 58 folders of material. Here's a hoarder of everything [00:19:30] he copies of every letter he sent and every letter he received. Um, and his diaries. Um, his 1943 diary chronicles his sexual relationship in New Caledonia with Charles Darky Boyd who's a soldier from Dunedin. Um, and it's interesting that Willie describes Boyd. Uh, the only picture we have of Boyd is this rather blurry picture here. Um, he describes him as straight. He acknowledges that So, um, I think Boyd is a is a very good example of situational [00:20:00] homosexuality. Boyd marries within a year of returning back to to New Zealand. So what is clear is that homosexual men were reasonably successful in creating these kind of satisfying sexual relationships and close affection or bonds. And I and I see that again and again. Here's the controversial one. Uh, it was Brigadier Dove who David W went to when he wanted to be posted to the forward [00:20:30] area, uh, to be reunited with darky boy um Boyd sent up to the Solomon Islands to fight the Japanese. And David W finds it very difficult to be separated from his first love. Brigadier Dove was second in command of the Pacific campaign after Brigadier Bar. He's the second most senior figure in the Pacific campaign. Um, he's a figure, though that's well known in pre-war queer and [00:21:00] post war queer circles in Auckland. Um, so he he's living a double life. Um, maybe he's a homosexual man who has been, who's felt that he has to have a wife. And, uh, he has a wife and two daughters, a house in in on Victoria Avenue. Perhaps it's a marriage of convention, but he's well known by the soldiers and homosexual soldiers. Had a really complicated relationship with Dove. He's a potential ally. [00:21:30] Um, he helps out soldiers who get gay soldiers who get in trouble with the American authorities. Um, yet the power and authority he wielded, uh, was was wearily regarded, especially when he used his position to gain sexual favours. Um, Robinson, Uh, who, while still in uniform, he robust do sexual advances. He he considered do a creep. Right. Uh, when you interviewing him when he's in his nineties, it's like, Oh, that [00:22:00] creep, Um, that was in a really difficult position. I think, um, the mateship and camaraderie among homosexual men required a certain amount of levelling that clashed with Dove's position of authority and reconciling the two, would have been really quite difficult. Um, it would also make him a figure of fun. In the butt of many jokes. Morrison first met Dove uh, when he was still a colonel [00:22:30] in January 1943. And it's one of the very few times he used shorthand in his diary and, um, as a sort of secret code, I guess. I guess he assumed not many people could read shorthand, and he secretly records his impression. He says, meeting the colonel who is not as pleasant as I expected. In fact, a monster. Uh, three days later, he remarks in his diary our old friend Colonel Dove but sarcastic there. He's only met him. Three days before our old friend Colonel [00:23:00] Dove visited the camp Ron, making facetious remarks on his presence. Um, world. He wrote down a joke in his diary made by an Auckland gay man who knew Dove before the war. A man called John Waldy, uh, in in in his diary in 1943 he writes, um, Bill Dove. Your name is in the book, but I've got the book, and I think that indicates the men's understanding that they, too, had something to hold over. Dove, Um, [00:23:30] W is a a very hospital orderly. He's in no way important. Um, but he's successful in getting this transfer from dove to the front line to be reunited with darky Boyd, which is extraordinary in itself. Um, Dove appears in many gay men's queer phone address books in the archives in the post war years, Um, he kept up contact with many of the soldiers he met. He [00:24:00] later corresponds with and invites Willie to his holiday home in Lake Tal for a men's weekend. Uh, an invitation that Willie accepted. And Dove pays for the trip for um uh, for Willie and a friend, another gay friend of his, uh, from Christchurch to come on up for that weekend, Um, which is an intriguing relationship. I'll let you to make your own conclusions, Um, during the war. So Ralph Dyer, Douglas Morrison [00:24:30] are both from Auckland were in the Pacific Kiwi concert party. They were touring New Caledonia, Vanuatu and the Solomon Islands. They were did shows in Guadalcanal, Bela, the Treasuries. And then they actually got all the way up to Nissan Island in the Green Islands, which is north of Bougainville and in part of Papua New Guinea. Today they were the Pacific Kiwi concert parties, female impersonators. This is Douglas in uniform, um, as AAA very [00:25:00] sis Male figure. Um, so I So I looked at their, um, their time growing up. Um, this is, um, Douglas. He attended Mount Albert grammar. He's, um, Louis the 16th. This, um there's another boy called Ray New Dick, which I must say is the most unfortunate surname seated beside him as Marie Antoinette. Um, in the right hand image. Um, Douglas is in the trench coat lining up for school, cert [00:25:30] at some year 11 exam for the younger members of the audience. Um, Douglas plays the very plain Jane female parts. Um, he's the girl next door. He's the mother figure in the skits. His camp name was Bula Bula BBC, Um, BBC because he had a rather posh voice right to the to his last days. Um, in fact, he briefly worked at one ZB radio in Auckland before being drafted. [00:26:00] Um, and I was very lucky because Harold was still in contact with Douglas. Douglas left New Zealand in 1944 as part of the reinforcements going to Cairo, Egypt, and he never returned. He really felt that he couldn't come back to New Zealand after the war and live as an openly gay man. Um and so I was able to take a flight to London to interview him, and that was a real privilege. Then I later found, uh, a diary kept by Douglas during [00:26:30] the war. Um, kept by him in New Caledonia in 1942 and 43 is held at the Kipen Burger Research Library at Army Museum. So there is a queer presence in the archives there, and they also hold many, many hundreds of letters sent by Douglas to two aunts that he liked, who have given all the kept all the letters and have given them to the Army Museum archives. I later contacted his sister in New Zealand who, um, was very little when he left and and really [00:27:00] had not much memory of him and actually assumed he had he had died already. She still had a metal trunk, Uh, and we opened it up and inside were lots of programmes and ephemera from the concert parties. It was basically all his positions that he had left in New Zealand in 1944. Um, so I you know, as an historian, you just kind of realise I've had gold. This is the treasure chest. Um, Ralph Dyer, um, is, um, was known to [00:27:30] gay men, actually, in the army as Crystal or Chrissy. Um, he played this kind of sexy Rita Hayworth type of the of glamorous woman, uh, for for the Pacific Kiwi Concert party and in the Alexander Turnbull Library. We've got this very large album of wartime photographs. He's probably the best known of the three men. He because he joined the Middle East Kiwi concert party in the very last few months where they were in Italy at the time, Uh and then [00:28:00] coming back, um, to New Zealand. Um, And in the post war period, he toured with the post war Kiwi Review. And it's the Kiwi Review concert party that a lot of people remember, uh, which toured Australia and New Zealand in the 19 fifties. So there's a lot written about him in publicity material, but he's was, ironically, very elusive to be able to research. Um, but here he is, uh, lacklustre sewing. [00:28:30] Um, I guess the materials and the and the humidity of the Pacific didn't last that long. So the book is part biography, but it's also partly a detailed history of life in the wartime concert parties. Um, and in particular, it's the first publication to talk about the Pacific Kiwi concert party and the concert party and and really the first book to discuss a clearer perspective on those concert parties. Um, one of my key historical narratives in the [00:29:00] book is that even as they performed heterosexuality in the concert party shows their homosexuality was there for those who were in the know, uh, or those who were in on the joke. Um, so here's, uh, Douglas and and Ralph, um, in, um, their their military clothes. Um, the makeshift stage. I love this picture because of the, um the barrels underneath the stage [00:29:30] holding it up. Yes. Uh, they often perform performed for American soldiers. So all dressed up in red, white and blue is is the patriot patriotic colours for, um, for performing in front of US soldiers? Um, and and they did a lot of comedy skits. Um, and, uh, here, we've got Ralph as Adolf Hitler. Um uh, in a in a really interesting skit, a skit. They called, um, Nazi land as a New Zealand [00:30:00] of the Nazis. Um, during the war, um, the three men become really close friends. Um, they keep meeting up. Even though Harold is the is is in the 36th Battalion. They they intersect, um, constantly. And so there's a wartime mateship between all three men. They also became friends with many other New Zealand homosexual men as well as American soldiers. Um, and here in the picture, on the left, uh, you can see, [00:30:30] um, a gay American soldier with the dog tags on. Um, I must say he has the best fingernails you've ever seen anyone go to war with. Um I don't know how he has has his manicure, so well, um, so homosexual men found each other during the war. Um, sometimes I think the groups were facilitated through the pre-war links that they had. Um, but another way, of course, I argue, is that they formed around the female impersonators in the concert party because the so the entertainment units kind [00:31:00] of offer a focal point for meeting other homosexual men. Um, and that included those American queer soldiers. So Douglas records soldiers passing notes to him through the window of the vehicle, asking to meet up the next day. So American soldiers sort of pass these notes, and, um, and of course, they they do meet up, um, an American soldier named Hal Schaffer, um, came up to the camp, uh, when they were in in 1943 sees the show, stays behind, goes backstage, [00:31:30] introduces himself to Morrison. Um, Morrison wrote in his diary that he found Schafer a very nice boy and exceedingly interesting on that day. And the next day, uh, after an afternoon show at the Red Red Cross, um, hut at Camp Barnes, Um, Morrison meets Schafer again, and they head into They go to La Grande Theatre and saw a film. They go to a coffee house, and Morrison writes in his diary, we romanced until it was time for me to return to Camp. Morrison [00:32:00] is obviously smitten. And, in fact, at the very end of the diary that day, he writes, the spell is broken. The day means little else to me. Um, and he spends the week, uh um meeting up constantly with Hal Schafer before they then, of course, are moved away. Uh, on tour, um, back up to the front line when, um, New Zealand soldiers are withdrawn from the Pacific. All three men, uh, come back to New Zealand. They do [00:32:30] a series of wartime shows in Auckland, Uh, at the town hall. Um, but they even come down to Wellington here, and they help with the Victory loan fundraising campaign. It was all about raising money for the war effort, and they performed at Victory Corner in Wellington. Um, they sold kisses to men for 10 bobs at the time. I don't know how that works. Um, that's victory corner there. And here they are on stage. That's the, [00:33:00] uh, um, junction of Featherston and Hunter Street at Lampton qua. Later, all three men are sent to Egypt, uh, as part of the reinforcements, and they find themselves placed in the pay corpse. Um, Ralph has posted up to the Middle East concert party in Italy. Douglas remains in the pay court, but actually gets himself posted to Italy and gets to be discharged in, uh, in London. Um, Harold and, [00:33:30] um uh, Ralph do return to New Zealand. Uh, but very quickly, they both decide they they want to leave after the war. Um, Harold first, Then Ralph joined Douglas in London. Douglas is is doing repertory in London. Um, Harold gets one of the very first, um, return serviceman's bursaries. And with that Bursary, he travels to London to study at the Sad Wells Ballet School. Um, Ralph follows to [00:34:00] do a theatre design course, and they they flat together in in London. So there's there's a, um, continuing story of their friendship in the post year wars. Um, throughout the book, I've tried to widen the historical lens, uh, to take in the stories of other homosexual New Zealand soldiers. Um, and I think that's a really important decision. Uh, as it allows us to see, uh, Robinson [00:34:30] Morrison and dire in a larger social and cultural context, um, to be able to compare and contrast their lives and experiences with other men. Um, in the end of the at the end of the book, uh, writing process. Uh, the book actually contains 50 named homosexual New Zealand men who are in military service in the war. So it it is the search for the needle in the haystack. But, um, we found quite a few needles there. I think, um, there's 36 named and profiled in a little bit of detail [00:35:00] at the back, Um, 10 from the judge advocate General's court Martial records remain unnamed, as the provision for use of those records is that, um, they remain anonymous. Um, the judge advocate General's files are held in Wellington at archive New Zealand. Um, and what's surprising is that, firstly, the the records are very fragmentary. Um, the military did not systematically bring all their records back here. [00:35:30] Um, but in the in the records that we have, there's very few cases, um, homosexual indecency charges where there's 14 charges, uh, in the surviving files that involve only 10 New Zealand men. Um, five men charged, uh, in New Zealand, one in Lebanon, two on the HMNZS Leander, which was in the Mediterranean, and two at Mardi camp in Egypt. Um, [00:36:00] four of these were from the Navy, three from the Army and three were from the Air Force. And one would expect for a start more cases from the army, uh, due to its size compared to the other forces. So there's a few questions that poses about you know what does what does this mean? Um, is have we got a very tolerant military force that doesn't prosecute anybody? Um I think, um when I was thinking through this, uh, the men may simply have been dealt with informally by their commanders who issued summary [00:36:30] punishments. Um, you know, so they admit their offence and they accept, um, detention, confinement to barracks, Uh, maybe extra guard duties or fines without really any formal proceedings. Um, and I think that's a That was probably often a very pragmatic approach because it allows the officer in charge to limit the effect, uh, first on the individual, but also limit the effect on the unit. Um, [00:37:00] the lack of records may also indicate that many officers were prepared to overlook same sex behaviour. I think there may have been a degree of unofficial tolerance, uh, among officers who were dealing with incidents, um, and and and and and and dealing with them in an informal way, uh, to avoid the removal of that man from the war effort. And it is, uh, a huge loss to bring someone that's been trained, uh, in particular skills to bring them all [00:37:30] the way back to New Zealand. Um, a court martial sentence was read out to the accused man's unit. Um, and that threat and its corresponding humiliation might have acted as a deterrent for men, um, and and meant that they were, um, more discreet, um, in their behaviour. Um, I think that often, though, what the court martial files show is that it often may have been dependent also on personal the personality of those involved, [00:38:00] uh, particularly, um, if, uh, particularly dependent on how well the offending soldier had integrated into the unit and and his value, Um, the case of the X ray technician in Lebanon, uh, who had skills that were probably too valuable to lose from the war effort. Um, he is found guilty, serves time in prison in Cairo, but released, um, long before his his um [00:38:30] the length of his sentence, um, has expired, and he's reposted very quickly to another hospital, uh, where he can continue serving without anyone knowing, uh, what he'd been up to. Um, two others, uh, Pat and Mike from the fifth Field Park Regiment. Um, they're buried together in at the Lama battlefield. They are mentioned, but, um, by their first names, they come from a a memoir by a soldier called Reginald de Grasse, who's [00:39:00] got a series of, um of memoirs held at the Auckland War Memorial Museum Archive. Um, Mike's killed by German butterfly bombs and Pat's grief leads him to suicide. It's one of the it's one of the really, um, affecting stories that are uncovered. These images are of the the homosexual men in the Middle East Kiwi Concert Party. We've got Walter Pre and Phil J, Uh, and the other soldier that's not in the picture. There is, [00:39:30] um, Tom Martin and Tom Martin. Of course, there's a nice link because he later ends up flatting with, um, Harold Douglas and Ralph in London. Um, apart from Pat and Mike, who died at I did uncover Noel Hume. Uh, he's really the only other homosexual New Zealand man I found who was killed in action. Of course, there'll be others who are not, uh, in the historical records that we just We just don't know. Um, [00:40:00] Hume was killed at in the western desert. Um, the pre-war photograph of him, uh, photographs of him is taken in Christchurch with his, uh, pre-war boyfriend, Laurie McElroy, who served in the Air Force. He was posted up to Canada. Um, the photo on the right is, um of Hume in uniform in in Egypt and Cairo. So historians are interested in the historical relationships between change [00:40:30] and continuity. One of the key themes I emphasise is that of a actually of continuity between the wartime experiences and the pre-war lives of Robinson, Morrison and Dia. And this continuity allows them to bring, I think, a sense of personal confidence, courage and and and creativity to their wartime experiences and made the difference in how they were viewed and accepted by others. Um, I hope that I've shown how they are able [00:41:00] to bring their queerness home in the midst of the war of the war. Uh, when they performed in New Zealand, uh, between deployments. And I think that continuity continues, uh, in their post war lives. My aim was to honour these men in my writing, uh, by constructing valid lives, uh, valid lives that in themselves are full of joy. Uh, and and more than a little bit of sex, uh, although some of it's pushed into the footnotes, but it's there, uh, [00:41:30] in the end, it's a bitter, sweet story, uh, of these three men, uh, who self empowered, uh, construct themselves a good life in a different world. And I think all three of them had a good war. World War two was a good war for them. For them. So, uh, thank you for coming along. Um, thanks to Overwatch and ST Pear for inviting me here tonight, Uh, and and the bar for hosting. Uh, I hope I sparked your interest [00:42:00] in military history, and I spoke. I hope I sparked your interest in LGBT Q history. Um, there are a lot more stories that need to be researched and a lot more stories that, um, need to be written in our New Zealand history. Thank you.

IRN: 3392
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089903
TITLE: Courage Day 2020
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VOICES: Christopher Burke; Janis Freegard; Mandy Hager
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1920s; 1930s; 1940s; 1950s; 1960s; 2020s; A Guest at the Wedding (short story); A Way of Love (book); Aotearoa New Zealand; Basil Dowling; Best Mates: Gay Writing in Aotearoa New Zealand (1997); Bill Pearson; Canterbury; Charles Brasch; Chimengul Awut; Christ's College (Christchurch); Christchurch; Christopher Burke; Courage Day (15 November); Day of the Imprisoned Writer (15 November); Desire Without Content (book); Douglas Lilburn; Frank Fleet; Frank Sargeson; Hocken Library (Dunedin); James Courage; Janet Frame; Janis Freegard; Kakwenza Rukirabasaija; Lights and Shadows of Colonial Life (book); London; Mandy Hager; Margaret Dowling; New Country: Plays and Stories (book); New Zealand Society of Authors (NZSA Wellington); Ngaio Marsh; Nicky Harger; Osman Kavala; PEN International; Paola Ugaz; Rex Pilgrim; Richard von Krafft-Ebing; Robin Hyde; Sarah Amelia Courage; Sedigheh Vasmaghi; The Young Have Secrets (book); Tuberculosis; Uncle Adam Shot a Stag (short story); United Kingdom; Vic Books Pipitea (Wellington); Walter D'Arcy Cresswell; World War 2; author; censorship; drama; farm; farming; guilt; hyacinth; invert; journal; library; mental health; mental illness; shame; theatre; writing
DATE: 16 November 2020
YEAR: 2020
LOCATION: Vic Books Pipitea (Wellington), 27 Lambton Quay, Pipitea, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, um, it's lovely to see everyone in person. This is the first time we've been able to have an in person meeting, Um, for some time now. So, um, welcome, everybody. It's really lovely to see you. Um, but yes, It's my great pleasure to welcome you all here today. Um, this is officially the day after Courage Day. Um, because that's, um, the the 15th of November. We're celebrating it today because this is the the timing for our usual branch meetings. [00:00:30] And so I'm I'm delighted to, um, to welcome first, um, Mandy Ha, Who's the president of the New Zealand Society of Authors. And she's going to talk to us, Um, a little bit about courage Day. Um, Mandy's, um, a multi award winning writer of, um, fiction for young adults. And she's she's won many awards, uh, including the storylines Margaret Mahi medal for Lifetime achievement and a [00:01:00] distinguished contribution to New Zealand's literature for young people. Um, and after Mandy's spoken to us, um, we're going to hear from our special guest, uh, doctor Christopher Burke, and he's gonna talk to us, Um, about James courage. So I'll introduce, uh, Christopher a bit more um, later on, but yes. Welcome. And I'll hand over now to Mandy. Uh [00:01:30] um, it's really lovely to be here. Um, and see people in the flesh. Um, one of the things that I really treasure about NZS. A is our connection to pen International, which works to support human rights. Um, of writers around the world. Um, hence we have an empty chair that recognises there. There are some writers who have been imprisoned for the writing that they do or are actually [00:02:00] no longer alive. So we that today and we also mark that by Courage Day. However, yesterday was also the day of the imprisoned writer, which is an annual international day to recognise and support writers who've, um, resisted repression of their basic human rights, um, to express how they feel freely and to stand up to attacks that made their right to impart against their right to impart information. Um, so, every year, uh, the pen international [00:02:30] picks, um, five or six writers to actually just highlight what's going on around the world. Um, but also to look at what's happening internationally. So last year, the Committee to Protect Journalists, for instance, said that 49 journalists were killed doing their jobs in 2019, 2020 another 37 are suspected of being killed for what they're written. So this year there are five writers that they've chosen to highlight, and please [00:03:00] forgive me for my pronunciation of their names in advance. So investigative journalist Palo Z from Peru, who's currently facing a criminal defamation trial in Lima. If she's convicted, she'll face up to three years in prison in her 2015 book that she co-authored, which exposed sexual and physical abuse within the Catholic Church. Um, she's now got defamation suits from all sorts of organisations that risk her going to jail. Iranian [00:03:30] lawyer and poet Sahani has been banned from leaving Iran in 2019, only two years after returning to the country. After living in Sweden for several years. She was sentenced to prison several times for reasons tied to her activism. In August, she was sentenced to a year in prison for signing a petition against police brutality. Um, Turkish critic of ER Erdogan Um [00:04:00] Osman Kavana has been imprisoned for three years. He's briefly released in February and then was put back in jail. Um last year the European Right of Human Rights ruled that his initial arrest was politically motivated. Chinese Uighur poet and editor Chi Awa was sent to a reeducation camp in July 2008 18. Um, according to local media, he worked for the state owned publishing [00:04:30] house and edited a book about Chinese leadership which they allegedly disliked. Therefore, he is now being reprogrammed. Um, the Ugandan author Kaka novel, The Greedy Barbarian, is seen as critical of the Ugandan president and his family. He was arrested in September of this year and detained for several days, accused of inciting violence and encouraging sectarianism. [00:05:00] He's currently free on bail but has to check in with authorities. Two Thou sorry, 200 kilometres from his home every week. So these are the kind of things that writers around the world are facing. Um, as the current turmoil in the US shows, US human rights and democracy are fragile mechanisms to protect civil society and can be overturned by one election or coup. It's important that we always keep vigilant even in a relatively stable democracy like a [00:05:30] we may think we are immune to such human rights abuses and harassment. But the truth is actually somewhat more complicated. So I'm stepping out of my hat of NZS a president, and I'm now speaking as the sister of investigative journalist Nicky Hager, whose work has shone a light on dirty political dealings and criminal activity within our defence force. Among a range of other issues after the publication of his book, Hit and Run, which outlined the killing of civilians [00:06:00] in Afghanistan by our SAS and which proved material materially correct, um, in a subsequent official inquiry, police illegally searched his bank accounts, his trade me accounts, his Air New Zealand accounts, then waited till they knew he was out of Wellington for the day before arriving on Mass at his house, waking his daughter, making her dress in front of a police officer in case she was trying to hide evidence, then pulled his [00:06:30] house apart, searching for evidence of his sources, which are actually protected under law. They illegally cloned his computer as well as removing it and his daughter's laptop just before she was due to set a university exams and would not allow me when I arrived to observe them as they searched to check that they stayed within the law. Later they were found to have operated illegally and were first forced to apologise and pay compensation. But he's not [00:07:00] alone and being treated like this. There have been several cases where government contracted. Investigators have illegally spied on protest groups here, breaching their privacy and right to protest. So I ask that we don't just pay pay lip service to our support of writers human rights, but that we actively demand these rights are protected both here and overseas. In the words of Thurgood Marshall, an American lawyer and civil rights activist where you see [00:07:30] wrong or injustice or inequality, Speak out. Because this is your country. This is your democracy. Make it protect it and pass it on. Thank you, Kilda. Thank you very much, Mandy, for, um, reminding us of of why we're here today and, um, how we can't be too complacent here in New Zealand either. Um, so it's my great pleasure now to welcome [00:08:00] Doctor Christopher Burke, who's, um, an historian and a Wellington based public servant. Um, and he wrote his doctorate on the life and literature of James Courage. So um it's a great pleasure for us to have him here today to talk to us. Um, about James Courage. Uh, Christopher Burke, Uh, thank you very much for having me here today. Uh, so [00:08:30] as Janice mentioned, um, I have written my PhD on James Courage. Uh, I am a historian, but in some ways, my research itself is now historical. So it was from 2012. So do bear with me. Um, if some of these details are sort of coming to me somewhat organically, uh, but it's really nice to to be here today to talk to you about I think one of my, um, great loves and passions and I'm super excited to share it with you all. Uh, so in terms of the, um, the title for today, um, I just want to explain, [00:09:00] um, something of the the meaning behind, uh, the title today. Uh, so remembering James Courage, I guess, Um, this comes from, um my awareness that, um despite his, uh, cultural, I guess significance, um, and his popularity during his lifetime, particularly before the publication of his novel The Way of Love. Much of what we know of of of James Courage as an author has has been lost somewhat over the decades. And an important part of gay activism, [00:09:30] I think in New Zealand has been, uh, remembering who he is and restoring to memory. Um, not only, um, his works of fiction, and there are several of them. I think that we should all be so excited to have within, um um our our heritage. Uh um, but also his life. Uh, so I want to do, um, both of those things today. So, uh, what I propose to do and, um, not really proposing, because that's what I'm going to do. Uh, is, um, speak to you? I guess in three stances, [00:10:00] Uh um, I'll begin. Um, just by very briefly tracing something of, I guess. Courageous life. A way of showing what, um, one. what one homosexual pre liberation life may have looked like. Uh, this is a subjective history. This is, um, the experience of of an individual, Um, but an important one. Um, and then we will move to, um discussing, um, something of the substance, I guess, Um, within two, cultural zones. So New Zealand and London being the two places [00:10:30] that, um, courage spent most of his time. Um, and I think this is important because, uh, I certainly as a as a gay male growing up in New Zealand, Um, I was well, in thinking of, um, of New Zealand's past as being, um an incredibly violent and repressive Um um, history, uh, for any minority. Um, but what I think is so exciting and so important, um, for us to celebrate as New Zealanders is actually that New Zealanders, uh, like James, Uh, um a, um, self affirming [00:11:00] homosexual did find ways to live satisfying lives and not only live them, but to write about them as well. And then I'll conclude not by talking about all of his works, which is always the temptation, I think, and something I would have done at the start of my PhD when I hadn't learned those lessons the hard way. I'll speak to you only about, um um a way of love, which is his novel. Which was, of course, um, censored in 1961. Um, and explain to you I guess the process by which, um, James went about publishing, uh, the novel, [00:11:30] um And that was quite, I think, uh, a personal ordeal for him, Um, and, um, and also to look at some of the aspects of those novels which I of the novel, which I think are of interest, Um, in and of themselves. These are the the messages that he was able to publish within the limited scope available to him as a as a writer. Um, and I should just emphasise as I mentioned, um, that, uh, most of this material comes from my, uh, my PhD thesis where I asked, um, a lot [00:12:00] more intensively, um, questions about, um, What it was like to be, um, a gay New Zealander before the years of liberation. Before this idea that we could all come out and live. Um, publicly, Um, um, open in theory at least. Um, uh, gay and lesbian lives, Um, which is obviously something that I, um is not necessarily the case for all of us today. So, um, just in terms of, um, um, Courage's background, uh, James was [00:12:30] born born to, um, a remarkably affluent family. Uh, in, uh, Canterbury. Um, his father Frank was a sheep farmer. Uh, they had large holdings near amberley. Uh, and a sheep station called, uh, that's North Canterbury and his mater. Maternal grandparents, uh, particularly his grandmother, were, um, of huge significance to him. Uh, these are the peaches. Uh, her husband died, um, early on. And she, um, was quite unconventional in the sense that she stayed on the farm and continued [00:13:00] to farm. Um, but she was an entirely, um, bohemian woman, Um, a great lover of literature. And, um, for someone, um I guess a really important role model. Someone, um for for James, who sort of stepped out of social conventions of the day, Um, and used literature in a way to inspire and to empower. Um, interestingly enough, um, on James's, uh, paternal side. His grandmother on his paternal side was also significant. And some of you may also know her name. So that's, uh, Sarah Amelia Courage, [00:13:30] who in 18 96 published, um um, a book. Uh uh. Lights and shadows of colonial life. That was based on Sarah's, uh, Colonial Diaries, Uh, from the period. And that caused a huge stir stir in the community. Uh, my understanding is that only eight, copies were ever produced. Uh, but that it made the neighbours so incredibly irate that they were all destroyed. Uh, it was only in the 19 seventies that, uh, that copies of that [00:14:00] of that, um manuscript were reproduced in any great number. Interestingly enough, courage doesn't really talk much about her. Um, possibly because she died before he was alive. But certainly he was aware of of her of her life, and and of her contributions, he was one of five Children. Um, and, uh, um, courage writes quite openly and and to, to some embarrassment for his family, about the domestic life of the courage. Uh, he describes it as being, um uh, [00:14:30] riven with domestic tension between, um, um his parents, uh, in saying that though, uh, courage was able to find, uh, a really vibrant And this is really interesting, I think a vibrant group of, um, outgoing, um, lively, dramatic and artistically inclined men and women, um, of his age to associate with. And he appeared in some, uh, local dramatic, um, productions, including those put on by Noah Marsh [00:15:00] and others. Uh, really enjoyed that. I think we can say, um and as he grew older, some of these relationships certainly were of a sexual nature. And this is demonstrated in his archive, just moving on to, uh, his schooling period. Uh, this is actually a very difficult period in his life. Um, he was almost certainly sexually harassed. Uh um, at school, Uh, particularly at Christ's college, and his diaries do indicate that he was sexually violated [00:15:30] at least once. Um, by at least one boy. Um, and this was obviously, um, greatly distressing for him as an individual. Um, and he was, unfortunately, also sexually assaulted by, uh, um, a paternal uncle. And this experience is reflected and recorded in one of his, um, breakthrough pieces. Um, a short story called My, um, Uncle Adam shot a stag. I actually do recall that this may sometimes be in English in New Zealand. I think it is studied sometimes [00:16:00] in high schools. But But what? What it won't reflect is the fact that it records, uh, this encounter. And so, uh, the stag and the story stands in for I guess, uh, a innocent, um, and and vulnerable sexuality, which his uncle, um, in the context of the novel, um is in the process of causing great violence to it. it is quite disturbing when seen in that light. Uh, following his childhood in New Zealand, he migrates to, um uh, England. Like many New Zealanders, [00:16:30] however, it's fair to say that New Zealand remains, um, a cultural anchor for him in many ways. And he writes compulsively about New Zealand and continues to associate with New Zealand friends. Whenever he can, he returns to New Zealand, Um, only once for two years in the 19 thirties, while suffering and recovering from tuberculosis, which seems to be a a New Zealand literary, um, affliction, Um, for many, uh, who certainly, um, following, um, that particular route, um, but his mental health is never is never, [00:17:00] uh, completely. Well, he experiences three complete mental collapses as he as he describes them during his lifetime. The first precipitated by these, um, violent sexual encounters. Um, but the most significant in 1950 when he is actually, um uh, made, uh, a volunteer patient at a private medical facility in London. Um, from this point, um, I, uh, courage is constantly under the care of psych. Um, psychiatrists. He undergoes psychoanalysts, like [00:17:30] many men of his age. And, um, class, uh, and he essentially withdraws from public life to some extent. This is not, though, in my opinion, a, um an indication of of failure by any means, in my opinion. And we'll see soon that Courage published many of his novels in the context of this great mental affliction. So in my opinion, it's a It's a real personal triumph for someone struggling with mental illness that not only [00:18:00] does the fiction become an outlet for coping with that mental illness and making sense of their past and their futures that they're able to be so successful. So Courage was essentially a novelist. Uh, these are the the novels he successfully published in this period of his life. Almost all, as I say, are set in New Zealand, um, or preoccupied by New Zealand And what I could not believe when I began to delve into these stories. Uh, not [00:18:30] only in my PhD, but as a young man. I sort of stumbled upon this man. It's almost like a I think, for some, for some people. You you you encounter, um, a name and you wonder. Gosh, that just feels gay a little bit. It really does, and so you kind of read their biography a little bit, and then you start reading their stories. And one by one, they, they kind of present to you something which you recognise and and which was quite overtly, um, communicating, um, ideas. Which, um, I could relate to, I guess, is one of the intended audiences, [00:19:00] Um, many of these novels, of course. A way of love being the, um the the most obvious exception. Uh, approach homosexuality in coded and partial ways, and we will talk about that, um, in terms of what that might look like. Uh, but courage also, um, produced some really important and, um, quite impressive stories which appeared in places like Landfall and an English story. And in American period periodicals as well, uh, he [00:19:30] was an occasional dramatist, which is really interesting. I think, uh uh, he had, uh, two plays, Um, um, presented in Oxford, including a wonderful story which is recorded in New country. A posthumous work released by, um, genre books. Uh, um, about two men living on an isolated sheep station. They are in love, and they don't realise it until quite late in their relationship. When one of them realises that the other is dying of tuberculosis, and it causes a great crisis. Uh um, he [00:20:00] also produced a wonderful, um uh, play called Private History. It was, um uh, a story about, uh, two homosexual boys who are in love and in a boarding school and their, um their stories in the process of being revealed and interrogated by the powers that they, uh And there are wonderful, um, images, Um, within his archive, which record? What that looks like. And that and that, um, show only ended because of black heart restrictions associated with World War Two. so it was, uh, was looking [00:20:30] quite successful for courage at the time. By far his most successful, of course, is the young of secrets. This tends to be the novel that you'll find in, um uh, um bookstores in New Zealand, a secondhand bookstores. And it was reprinted, I think, in the in the early 19 seventies, Uh, the story was a Book Society Book of the Month selection, and it's said to have sold well over 100,000 copies in its first print run and was sold in both, um, hard and soft copies. So while he published [00:21:00] well. His published literature occurred only in the in earnest at the onset of early middle age. Courage actually very quickly became one of our most significant writers and one of the most successful. When Nao Marsh awarded Frank Sarge the Mansfield Literary Award, she considered at that stage that only Janet Frame and James Courage could approach Frank Sarge in terms of esteem and critical output, which I think is really interesting considering his relatively modest profile today. Culturally speaking, though of course, [00:21:30] uh, and the reason why I'm here today, um uh, I think a way of love stands as his most important cultural contribution, and I will show you later, later on about exactly why It's a story of unapologetic love between a younger and an older man. And it is certainly, as far as I'm aware, New Zealand's first published homosexual love story, Uh, in terms of novels, um, and courage intended for it to be set in New Zealand but was not able to, uh, kind of load both barrels of the gun, I suppose, with homosexuality [00:22:00] and the New Zealand city, he felt that was probably something he should not do. Uh, the censoring of the of the novel in 1961 while not expected for Courage, and he was prepared for it. And many of his friends were in the process of of, I guess, preparing themselves, too, for this to support him. Um had a hugely detrimental impact on him as an individual, and we'll look at that shortly. Despite the support of friends and well wishes, he really never truly regained his literary voice. And he died soon after, Um, at the age of 60 from [00:22:30] a heart attack. That novel was very his final novel was very much a return to the coded narratives of his past and was very much preoccupied with the kinds of despair, mental difficulties he was now assailed by almost completely in his private life. So that's a visit to Morton in terms of, um, how we know what we know about James. Uh, the reason why we do, uh, with the exception of uh um, I guess some, uh, correspondence files [00:23:00] and some probate material elsewhere is the wonderful archive, um, held at, um, hawking collections. Um, down in Dunedin. Uh, there is extensive correspondence with some of the most important writers of the period, both in New Zealand and overseas. There are wonderful and candid photographs, many of an intimate nature and also just quite beautiful. Quite frankly, um, um, really interesting to see postcards. Courage has has, has clipped out pictures of hot men from newspapers. [00:23:30] I guess it's kind of like the equivalent of looking at someone's hard drive and special files they might like to keep secret, but somehow have found their way into, uh into the archive manuscripts, which I think is wonderful. It's a wonderful way to see how someone changes story ideas as they go along and also negotiates those ideas with publishers. And I do write about that in my thesis, but by far the most exciting thing for me. And I think for New Zealanders, um, and and up there with his literary output are these wonderful diaries. [00:24:00] So Courage started writing diaries from the age of 16, which is, I think, just such an incredible gift to to leave for the world until he died at age 60 these are almost uninterrupted and to make it even more exciting, these are These are candid and these are interesting and these are incredibly well written. Um, And I think, quite frankly, that, uh um, these, uh, for them to even to survive If we understand the historical context is a triumph. If [00:24:30] these had fallen into the wrong hands, they would be the object of blackmail and legal recriminations. And certainly, um um a significant scandal, Uh, for a quite significant family living in New Zealand at the time. I think, um, I was also incredibly lucky and privileged. Um, and I think for the reasons I've just described, um, these were under embargo. Uh, so I was incredibly lucky to be able to, Um uh, look at these diaries. Just as they came out of Embargo. And [00:25:00] I had intended to look at eight New Zealand writers as part of my PhD. And I fell in love with these diaries. Unfortunately, out of time. And so, um, I spent at least a year reading and transcribing all 14 of his diaries and loving every moment. As far as I'm concerned, these are a national treasure. So courage is New Zealand. I don't have time to, um, map fully. What courage is New Zealand, I guess. Looks like, but I think we can interrogate these images? Um, [00:25:30] with some interest. Uh, so I do want to focus mostly on car's literary career, But what I want to draw our attention to as many New Zealand, um, historians have been of late and quite successfully. So is to question what we have presumed about gay lives and and all sorts of minority histories in New Zealand. This idea that repression is something uniform something which, despite the best attempts at resisting we simply cannot resist, is simply not the case. So for courage, as I've suggested, [00:26:00] his personal archive and personal document documentation show that this was not a life that was completely repressed. He was able to access and to enjoy, uh, the social and intimate company of of Men of of Men of his own age. Um, yes, his he had. He had incredibly negative sexual encounters with other people. Um, but he was able to find positive sexual experiences here in New Zealand. These are artistically minded New Zealanders, um, in this [00:26:30] period 19 twenties, many of them who are also artists in the process of finding themselves, most of these people at the time would have described themselves as inverted rather than homosexual, which in some ways is quite helpful and productive for courage. So this idea of inversion, which has been promoted in, um, the works of, uh, for example, Richard von Kraft, ebbing and and Carpenter and others associate artistic, um, identities with what we will come to know as homosexual identities. Essentially, [00:27:00] um, and And what we see here, I think, is courage. Very much living an embodied sexual identity. Um, along those lines. Uh, so he had at least one significant male liaison and friend in his youth. Um, a boyhood friend called Ronnie. He lived in a, which is near Mount. So where, um um, his grandmother lived. And that relationship is actually memorialised in more than one story. And you often do see that migration of of lived experience into, [00:27:30] um, creative output. Um, including, And I would love you all to read it, if you can find it. Um, I'm pretty sure it's also in a new country. Um, a wonderful story called a guest at the wedding, Uh, which is a kind of gay love story which is set in the Cargill and Stewart Island of all places and very much memorialised on their love for each other, which is not always an easy love, but, um, I think quite interesting. So despite sexual, um, violence and torment occurring elsewhere in his life, courage did find outlets [00:28:00] elsewhere, which I think is really great. And I think this explains the what I would describe the three dimensionality of New Zealand and much of his fiction. So it's not just repressive, but it's not just liberating. It's a bit of a mixture, a difficult mixture of of both kinds of experiences. It's a place where natural freedom, freedoms and personal nourishment are available if you know where to find it. And you can get away from pesky prying eyes essentially, uh, so if I can just describe some of these images for [00:28:30] our listeners, uh, what we are seeing here, I think, is very much, Uh, um, this kind of, um, artistic, playful abandon, Um, which obviously courage was able to enjoy, um, in the safety of his own friendship group, his own intimate group. So we have courage, I think, dressed as Pocahontas from memory. He does describe it. Uh, he's wearing a wonderful ensemble, including, uh um, looks like a feather uh, he's got a wonderful, um uh, knit [00:29:00] shawl. Uh uh. I'm pretty sure those are opera. Supposed to be opera glasses. He's holding in the first image. Uh, this is before tucking and ru's drag race. So, uh, this is a more organic image that we're probably seeing, uh, than these days, And I really do enjoy the, uh, the the the the Sunflower I think he has attached at the back of of his wonderful outfit in the middle of rural New Zealand, which I think is fabulous. [00:29:30] So that was New Zealand. Um, but what about London? And this is so I I want to share today. Um, some of these excerpts from, um co's diaries. Uh, this is very early on and encourage his arrival. Um, in in England, he's on his way to to to Oxford. But if I can just read this again for our listeners, um, I think you'll see or sense his excitement because London does provide something that New Zealand can't really provide at this point. And this exemplifies it. So he says, Can't you imagine the London [00:30:00] streets in the dusk full of lights and hurrying people and men in the gutters, trying to sell you bananas or little boys. And then further in the glowing theatres and the lighted signs of Piccadilly Circus most ingenious, some of them and somebody flying past in an opera hat and just around the corner coming on a bigger one side of his face a great red scar drawing with coloured chalks on the pavement, the illuminated words to live and II. I think that he is ready to live at this point. And [00:30:30] so, um, I do write in my thesis and elsewhere that that while New Zealand was nourishing in certain ways, what it couldn't provide is this kind of urban excitement, Uh, this kind of cultural ferment. Uh, although he finds it in small scale ways, um, it's something in which he has to wait to to to encounter, um in London. I also think it just shows, as as I've been saying, the incredible lyricism of his private writing as well. Um, in some ways, he can be much less rest restrained in this [00:31:00] in this, um, vehicle of expression, Um, he can say what he wants. Hopefully, no one reads it unless he wants them to, um and um And so I guess there is much less negotiation he needs to worry about. The other thing, of course. That, um uh uh, London can provide Probably more readily than, uh, than New Zealand. Uh, are, I guess, sexual opportunities? Uh, well, not just not just sexual opportunities. Uh, but, um, [00:31:30] uh, intimate opportunities in the broadest sense. Uh, and, um, courage, um, had several committed relationships. Uh, I feel like we could We could call him a serial monogamist. Um, but with, um, forays on the side every now and then. Uh um, but his by by far his most passionate and, um, and long lasting, enduring love was with this man, Frank. Frank Fleet. Uh, so they meet on the Cornish Riviera [00:32:00] Express, which sounds like a fantastic place to meet someone. I'm assuming. Probably in the first, the first class dining car. Perhaps I have no reason to think that, but I like to wonder, um, and that was in 1929 or 1930. They began an immediate, passionate love affair, and that only ended in 1932 when Frank unfortunately, needed to, um, return to Argentina. And then the romantic twist that I wasn't expecting [00:32:30] because I'm kind of reading the diaries as I'm going through them. Courage does not let go. Several weeks later, he boards a steamer and he goes to Buenos Aires to get him back. So this would be a fantastic story to see in in a in a New Zealand feature film one day. I hope that someone out there, um um, would agree. Um, if I can just read this quote is rather fabulous. Um, I think you'll sense, uh, his excitement. A new lover and such a gentle, beautiful, affectionate [00:33:00] creature Name. Frank Colour. Dark age, 25 Height. 6 ft one inches. Wait. I asked him this. 100 and £82. 13 stone nationality, father, Argentine mother, Cornish, and athlete and handsome. One of the sweetest creatures I've ever known. With something so touchingly lonely and childlike in him that it makes tears of gentleness start to the eye. A very passionate lover. He calls me in soft Spanish, Blanco white and gold. So beautiful. [00:33:30] While their relationship was never to return to the romantic conventions we might think of in terms of a lasting, committed relationship. Um, and while courage never successfully woes, um, Frank, and induces him to come back with them to London. In fact, he marries and has Children. Uh, their relationship continues. They continue to love one another. Um, Frank spends intimate time with him when he visits London. Even with his family, which [00:34:00] is, I think is of interest. Um, they certainly both continue to enjoy sexual encounters with other men. Quite unproblematic to a degree. But you can see here that he does feel some some deep pangs at this time. Um, and courage even remembers him and his will when he dies several decades later. Uh um, importantly, in some ways, he is regarded, I think, you know, as a as a as a partner, as as the lover of his life. And here, um, in this quote, we see [00:34:30] that here You sense that the two months Frank and I lived together two years ago with the happiest period of my life, the intolerable burden of my loneliness was eased. My need of him and his love for me brought me an extraordinary peace and pride. Everything was, as it were, vindicated. The liaisons I have had since have been purely physical and have given me an unhappiness and disgust and co. While he is quite fond of the occasional soldier and sailor, uh, his real, um, [00:35:00] ideal, I think, is, uh, a monogamous, committed relationship. Um, and I and domestic commitments, um, in that context. And and that is reflected in many of his stories as the decades went on and as his literary literary career began to take off, Courage played an increasingly important role, though in London's literary and artistic community. Despite his mental despairs of a very difficult middle age, he continually corresponded with a number of New Zealand leading artists and intellectuals. [00:35:30] Frank, Sarge and Charles Brash especially, um, but others are bound. And when we see this in his surviving correspondence files, they include Darcy Creswell, who he did not agree with in terms of, I guess, a sexual outlook. They had very little in common, and and Darcy would come over and ask for money and suggest that they go and, um, pick up various uh um, unusual muscular types around London, which he wasn't very interested in. Um, others include Robin Hyde, Ursula Bethel, Douglas Libourne, EH [00:36:00] McCormick and still others such as James K Baxter. Courage also provided financial support to the likes of Janet Frame at the urging of both, um, brash and Sarge, Uh, I'm sure one of many, Um though he found because of his own mental, um, afflictions, he couldn't really be there for her more, um, in terms of meeting with her or offering to mentor or or give her advice. In my thesis, I argue that courage was an important social hub, Uh, for these, um, individuals, Um, particularly [00:36:30] for young writers and artists and intellectuals who arrive in London with few resources, either social, um, or material far from a drain on on his psychic resources, though, when he least needed it. What I found interesting from his stories and from his archive is the fact that these are the relationships that save his life. And we see that constantly in his private narration, um, particularly, um, the authors, uh, Margaret and oh, not Margaret, but, um, Basil Dowling and his wife Margaret, [00:37:00] they were hugely important. Um, bezel was one of the text and poets. Uh, I'm sure you know, um, and rather infamous himself as a pacifist. And as someone who was jailed for his beliefs. So, um, in many ways, we could talk about him on a day like today. Um, while at least one sister, uh, Patricia lived in nearby Surrey, it was always to the Lings and to people like him that he would retreat when he was threatened mentally or, um, by physical unwellness. Um and I think that's very interesting. Um, [00:37:30] and we see that here he's writing to to Charles Brash. And he says that he's gone to the to the darlings, um, on, uh, afternoon, which is one of England's brightest and freshest. They had tea on the daisy grass in the garden, among poppies and Lupin. Basil looked pale and tired. Poor man, but Margaret was brown. After a week in Cornwall, we sat on the deck chairs and ate chocolate cake and sandwiches like a New Zealand picnic. Rather, I hoped the tea would taste of manuka smoke. I had been in one of my worst depressions, and this is what I'm talking about. My ban. But I managed [00:38:00] to cheer up and talk. We spoke of you, um, and he talks about Dunedin's Harbour, probably being full of pack ice at the time. I think you sense here that he's doing this. He doesn't really want to leave the the safe space of his of his apartments in Hampstead, But he's continually induced to do so, and he is all the better for it. Which I think is, um, is quite beautiful. Moving to his, uh, literature. [00:38:30] What we see encourages, Um um, archive, um, in his correspondence in his diary is an early commitment to, uh, actually really pushing back on what he considered to be unnatural norms which are mapped on all of us, just just regardless of difference. And you see, here in this diary excerpt that he considered that there was to be no distinction made between, um, what he says, Um, I suppose, [00:39:00] uh, sexual relationships where both are inverts. That's his, um underlining, not mine. Uh, um, but that that these are relationships capable of love and the and the the relationships which should be regarded as being legitimate. Um, and he does suggest that, uh, that this is a law which is unwritten and senseless, but this is him. In his in his mid to late twenties, he has already written several stories. By this time, um, which [00:39:30] uh, are dealing with these sorts of issues. Uh, he considers himself, uh I guess in the vanguard of authors that will resist those norms. And he does so in, I guess. Interesting ways. If we were to, um, uh, generalise about, uh, his made his main modes of narration. Uh, he had already had, uh, I guess, some very significant disappointment. Disappointment with publishers [00:40:00] such as TS Elliott that had read some of his early stories and rejected them because they were simply too overt about homosexuality. So he developed over time the ability to talk about homosexual issues in ways that he said his homosexual readers would would read and understand. This is pre a way of love. Uh, so to do that, we would engage themes, uh, which we would recognise from our own lives. But these are protagonists who don't quite understand yet. This is the protagonist of, uh, the young have secrets, for example, [00:40:30] who is observing other people's sexual identities and beginning to understand his own, the other fantastic, uh um, literary technique he uses, and I and again you sense before he even tells you. But he does confirm this in his, um archive. Um, is what I've called the female signal character. And I'm sure I've stolen it from someone else. But I can't remember where I've taken that term. But you see this, um confirmed, I think, Um, in in a in a letter, he writes to a friend called [00:41:00] Jim Harris. This is about his his novel desire without content. What a surprise. Your sweet letter gave me such memories. Ah, those days at springs, wherever they may be. And you with your big manly form. Of course, I loved every moment of it. But Mother Hush must never know. I've hardly recovered yet. Read my other book, desire without content and find out what it really is to become a woman. Yes, my sweet. I mean it. You men know [00:41:30] nothing of us girls. And he acknowledges that many of his female protagonists and his stories are supposed to be seen as as essentially him as a as homosexual characters. But he knows he can't quite get away with it just yet. And he writes to James Courage and to Charles Brash. And he starts explaining in 19, uh, in the 19, um, mid 19 fifties that he now intends to, I guess, spread his wings somewhat and write more openly [00:42:00] about these kinds of stories. He was aware, I guess, of his, um, uh, limited agency left available to him. Um, but I think he had seen overseas that there were examples where people were beginning to press those boundaries. And he begins, I think, to make a gamble. And that's exactly what happens. Uh, so, in order to, uh, really get, um, a way of love off the ground and [00:42:30] to ensure that it, uh, um, is able to be published courage needs to, uh, step through a number of, uh, um revisions to his story. Uh uh. So originally he had intended the the main protagonist of a way of love to be utterly sexually repentant. He's supposed to be someone that you don't like. He has indulged in the worst kind of, I guess, sexual indulgences. He has lived to middle age now, and he he [00:43:00] is no longer able to, um, to love or feel love. That wasn't appropriate. According to um, the publishers of those times, it's not really something which was seen as, um I guess possible. He was also forced to change the book's title a number of times. Uh, so it was originally named the The name is spoken and then in private. And he was also forced to to to peer back on the sexual content, which he had hoped to to show quite respectably, um, to, [00:43:30] um to audiences. Uh, and I think, quite critically. The story's, um, resolution eventually changes as well. So Courage had originally intended for Philip, the younger of the novels two homosexual protagonists to leave Bruce for Maurice a man his own age. But under pressure from Cape Courage revised the final sequences of a story. So after a violent struggle, uh, essentially, he has to, um, back down And, um and, um, agree [00:44:00] that Philip should, um, marry. And he uses the word inoculate, inoculate himself against the life of dissipation, um, and loneliness, which is, um, I, I think something that, um, he wanted to suggest about, uh, that kind of lifestyle. The other thing he needs to do is, um, show that ultimately, in order to, um, make this possible that, uh um, this was going to be, uh, a story of respectability. And this is what we're seeing here So Bruce is the the main protagonist [00:44:30] and rather be sexually unrepentant. He's someone who's who's who's stoic, who's respectable, Uh, who does not, um, um, pick up bodies, um, at at local bars. Um, although he has, but he acknowledges that he leaves ashes in his mouth. He has a jaw, which is inherited from a yo father. Um, and he has a backbone as hard as a plough handle. These are all, um, insertions. I think in in the later, um, depictions which, um, find their way into a way [00:45:00] of love. But the the the triumph of a way of love is that he is not completely repressed, as I've suggested, uh, he finds ways to I think, um, talk quite productively about, um, sensuality, um, and intimacy. So here we have, um, a quote from a way of love. Um, and it's describing his one of his first encounters with Philip. Uh, he describes the centre of the higher, which is an association, um, long held with, um, gay histories, uh, associated with [00:45:30] the, um, lover of a polar high Synthes and suggests that it was strong on the closed there and no less disturbing than before. This is not the first time he smelled it. And he describes Philip as having a young face tigerish, baffled and that skin had grazed his own. So they're depictions of bodily contact. We just don't go that next step. We don't need to hear what happens next. Uh, he also, um, writes, I guess, about physical context in other in other ways, he talks about the aromatic warmth of his head, which I think [00:46:00] is quite beautiful. He talks about holding his body against him. These are convulsions, but his body is sturdy, uh, again, quite restrained. There's no, uh, sexual passion as such. Um but still, I think quite, um, quite artistic. And this is my favourite one, describing, kissing Philip. Um, and these might be the sorts of, um, sections that got him into trouble with New Zealand audiences. I tilted up his face. Philip's [00:46:30] mouth tasted of darkness and fresh water and the rind of some healthy fruit not yet ripened by the sun. So a way of love, despite its editorial interventions, remains unrepentant in ways which spoke more fully to courage, his own sexual and intellectual outlook. It's actually not a failure it's it's quite the opposite. His intention was to show homosexual relationships as legitimate, mutually supportive and by forcefully rejecting the overt criticisms of the heterosexual, [00:47:00] um, elite. In this sense, respectability, which we've seen, uh was much more than a mask. It was a way, I guess, of eliciting sympathy, Um, and, uh, and engaging with his audience, particularly a lay audience. The construction of a respectable homosexual relationship allowed a depiction of intimacy that could be seen as egalitarian, which I think is really interesting, Um, and accordingly, perhaps even praiseworthy. It's something legitimising, um, putting the novel in a social and cultural context. This isn't, [00:47:30] uh, the story of gay activism, which we will see in decades afterwards. Um, these are not the strident demands of a group of people who at times called for the the eradication of the nuclear family uh, the collapse of of, um, of accepted marriage norms, et cetera. This is a group of people who are asking for something quite different. Uh, these are stories of an earlier period, uh, which simply asked for worthy homosexual types. Unfortunately, it means others were excluded to [00:48:00] be given the space and legitimacy to live respectable private lives without fear of attack and ridicule. But still, these assertions are radical and highly challenging for their own time. And this is one of the reasons why courage is attacked. Uh, and this is emblematic. Very much of of the fact that while the the the ending of the novel isn't necessarily exciting in terms of what he hoped to do, he he does not apologise. Uh, this is, um this is Bruce. Uh, these [00:48:30] are years, which he learned they both learned much together, Um, and, um and he refuses to renounce that love. The impact of the book censorship, though coming three years after the successful publication of the novel, uh, certainly undercut courage's sense of achievement. Uh, this is obviously something he had intended to do for for several years. We see that in his letters, and that tended to worsen his already deteriorating mental state. Uh, and this is reflected here in his interior life. Interestingly [00:49:00] enough, I heard, um, just this morning, I think on a podcast. This is courage writing during the winter of 1963 that this is the most severe winter in 300 years in London Um And so it's almost like the the elements are conspiring with, um, with courage, his mental state here. And he continues to reflect on his New Zealand background. And it's now something which he associates with guilt, um, as something which provides him shame. He had hoped to move back to New Zealand, but now has changed his [00:49:30] mind. And he writes here about his memories of killing small birds. He writes here, I think, also of gendered Shame. He was trying to be a man, but he never was one. so I mean, these are quite troubling. Um, lines, of course. Um, friends wrote with alarm, even while mounting a defensive Courage's novel in places like landfill and others. But this tended to make him more embarrassed. He wished people would stop talking about it. Essentially, Um, he was doubly embarrassed by the fact that this criticism had come from New Zealand. [00:50:00] I don't really have time to talk much more than that, but I also don't want to end, I guess on an unhappy note. Uh so rather than end on that note, I think what I want to do is emphasise the real and considerable impact. The novel had on Courage's readership, many of them homosexual New Zealanders who followed Courage's career with particular interest for years because they did what I did. When I was reading his novels, they detected those stories. They resonated with readers [00:50:30] the censorship of a way of love in New Zealand and and this is quite, uh, I guess, um, profoundly impacting for courage. Um resulted in all of his novels being withdrawn from from circulation, it suggests that others who are now detecting those resonances and we're now reading them differently. But the interesting thing is, and we know this from the fact that oh, I didn't want to show this right away. Oh, well, too late. You've seen it because it's just so funny. Um, uh, was that, uh, that [00:51:00] that that readers were still finding their stories. We're still reading about them, and we were writing to him. So along with these wonderful friendships with the darlings and others that were, you know, actively involved in his care and and, um, and his emotional maintenance. He lives with them while he recovers from his heart attacks. Um, he receives fan mail from all over the world but from New Zealanders in particular. And there are wonderful stories of New Zealanders who go to the local libraries. This is before the censorship. [00:51:30] Um, you know, a way of love is in New Zealand for for three years before it's put before the chief censor by the police. Um, and they go to the libraries and they they see that there's supposed to be three copies of a way of love. But they're all out on loan and a right to courage. And they say, I wonder who else in this small Southern town may be reading these stories. This is resonating with a number of people. I'm not saying they're all homosexual by any means, but but they must be allied to have an interest in such stories. [00:52:00] Um, and this did make a big difference to courage. It's difficult to calculate the exact effect we, um, he may have had on his readership. I guess I haven't seen any memoirs, necessarily which have talked about the significance of his readership. It's only in these letters that, uh, that I've been able to detect them. But it's clear that from the correspondence that many are resonated and We're excited by the notion that one of New Zealanders, most significant writers of this period was able to for want of a better word to come out to, to [00:52:30] to affiliate, Um, and to associate with these kinds of stories, and they knew what that meant. Uh, so he became a role model. Uh, I think in some ways, um, our version of an Oscar Wilde for people of this period. So if I can just end on this wonderful little excerpt, Um, I think you sense some of the abandoned and the that these, um these correspondents wrote with. So this is what he says to Charles Brash. Something's arrived in the mail. [00:53:00] And unfortunately, before I start this, unfortunately the card doesn't survive. It would have been wonderful to see. I would have loved to have seen it. An enormous Self-made Christmas card came yesterday from a man in Invercargill who describes himself as a display artist. The card painted shows Santa Claus reading a way of love with avid but astonished interest while almost falling off a pile of books, mostly my own. By the titles, The card measures two by 3 ft and cost five [00:53:30] and three by Air Post. There's fame for you and all from Invercargill, New Zealand. It's adorable. Something. So any questions from anyone that wasn't my notes, but the notes were on the floor at the time, and I couldn't reach them. It's a good question. Thank you. So the question was, [00:54:00] how did cos um uh, materials, um, arrive to the Hawke library? Uh, I guess two things I want to mention about that chiefly, Charles Brash Charles Brash. I think, um, recognises his literary and cultural significance, Uh, chiefly as a writer. And I think Frank, Sarge and, um uh, um was of a similar mind. Uh, brash also spent quite a significant amount of time in London around this period and was, um uh, I guess a major force [00:54:30] in ensuring that they weren't destroyed, but that they were recognised as being important. Uh, so, in conjunction with his the executor of his will, which was his sister Patricia, he ensured that Patricia agreed that they could be returned to New Zealand if with some uh uh What's the word? Um, restrictions. My understanding is that that those restrictions chiefly applied, though to, uh, uh, the, uh uh, not the manuscript material, but the diaries. [00:55:00] Um, but many of you will be aware that in writing, um, or putting together the collection of best mates, I think it was, uh, by Peter Wells, one of the first collections of of, um, of gay men writing in New Zealand. Uh, they the executor office will also declined permission to reprint, Um um, anything from, um, Courage's, um, literary archive as well, which is a shame. My view on that, though, is, [00:55:30] um rather than I guess, a sign of homophobia. Necessarily. It may have been out of defence of someone that had already been the subject of severe critique of of severe criticism. Um, and and perhaps, um, may have been wanting to, kind of, I guess, protect his memory. I. I haven't seen any, um, assertions one way or the other. There are. There are letters from Patricia to Charles brash in relation to, um, those, um, steps being taken. [00:56:00] Um, but I have wondered over the years, um, I was wondering about the timing of Bill Pearson's on coal flat. I can't quite remember when it was published, but I know he was in London as Well, was it around about the same time or a different time? There seems to be, um I refer to my master's thesis. Uh, there seems to be, uh, um, actually, that's AAA Fascinating. Um, conclusion there's a There's a remarkable burgeoning [00:56:30] of, of, of writing in this period by a number of, um, of our most significant New Zealand writers, Bill Pearson included Frank, Sarge and being another Darcy Creswell being another, uh um, who are who are operating, I guess in that more, uh um, sideways looking, um, literary approach. Um, certainly, uh, Bill Pearson is someone he corresponded with, but I can't quite remember. I feel like it's the early sixties or late fifties. Um, [00:57:00] but very much of that generation a likely different mode and and courage is criticised for his mode. He writes in very genteel ways. Uh, he also receives, um, correspondence from people. Um, for this reason, accusing him of being a woman, Um, that only a woman could write with this much emotional sensitivity, Uh, which I think is is quite remarkable. He he found that quite entertaining. Uh, so it it These are stories which read quite differently from the social realism of writers such [00:57:30] as Pearson and, um, and such as, um, this is slightly, um, a question a bit to the side, but reading his early stories with the, um, young boy Walter, um, it always struck me that courage is quite unique in that he writes out of the sort of squat, you know, wealthy families, often very literate. And I think it's very hard to find another New Zealand writer who writes [00:58:00] sensitively about that background. Did you feel that? Well, I certainly haven't read anything else. Uh, which approaches, um, that material, Um, And in that way, um, and I, I I'm certainly aware of of other historians writing about its importance in that sense as a reflection of that period and that and that, um, in that community of people, I suppose actually, the only other person I can think of is his grandmother. And I haven't read, [00:58:30] um uh, his her 18 96 manuscript in depth. Uh, but they they do share. Um, certainly a fascination with, uh, cultural norms, Uh, with ways of life, Uh, with almost an a an Austrian, um, fascination with, um uh the the patterns of behaviour which people take for granted. And are they legitimate, et cetera? And but you are quite right as well. Uh uh. [00:59:00] His protagonist, Walter, is someone that we continually see, uh, from the 18 forties onwards, the story I mentioned, um, Uncle Adam shot a stag. Um, His name is Walter Blackistone, I believe. And, uh, he reappears in almost all of his New Zealand stories somewhere. Way, shape or form. It's just really interesting. Did you have a again? My notes were on the floor for the profession. Talk, um, so supported most [00:59:30] by his family, particularly at the point of his most serious mental breakdown when he retreated from public life. Uh, for all intents and purposes, prior to that, he worked as a, um, book manager of a local bookstore in London. Quite a significant one. I forget the name of, um and he also was, uh, he he was hoping to contribute to the war effort in the in the 19 forties. What was that? Was considered medically unfit. May have had flat feet or [01:00:00] something along those those lines. Um um but was able to be a fire warden during the war. Um, he took I think quite a lot of solace from the fact that he was able to engage in everyday life, Uh, particularly during a state of crisis. But on the same flip side, I guess on the flip side, once, he was no, no longer able to be there. That's something which becomes a source of shame and grief for him that he feels [01:00:30] he becomes, I guess, almost parasitic, um, and needing to live off his, um, family's, um, affluence. Um, it's something he does struggle with Is almost the, uh, the gendered nature of Of of New Zealand masculinity and the association of a viral act of masculinity. Um, and this idea that we need to work to safeguard and augment and construct these solid identities something that he finds quite troubling. [01:01:00] Good. Chris. Thank you. Um, it terrified. So after he wrote a, um, a way of love, his previous works in New Zealand was born. Withdrawn is my is my understanding, Yes. So the question was, um I guess the sequence of events that occur, um, after a way of love. Uh, and there were I assume the directions [01:01:30] given which resulted in the extraction of remaining stocks of his books for sale. I suppose it's possible that they were just seen as being associated. I guess perhaps I'm I'm thinking too highly of these people in the sense that I've assumed that they would at least read them to know. But it's possible they were just like these are culturally, um, contaminated texts. We just can't know for sure. Let's remove them just in case. What I didn't say, though, is and and please, maybe, if you, if you have the opportunity when you're next [01:02:00] in a in in a um, significantly sized New Zealand, um, second hand bookshop. Look for copies of James Carriage's books and what you'll find is many copies Piece of James Carriage's books from this period. So again, that suggests to me a continued circulation of texts despite official efforts to, um, control and withdraw, um, and repress. Uh, that suggests to me, men, women, perhaps even informally, um, exchanging stories. And we all know what [01:02:30] happens when you censor a novel. It it doesn't necessarily repress or discourage. It encourages and invites. And um, perhaps that's what we're seeing in some of these, um, uh, these these letters and we would have seen more of had courage. Lived long enough to be corresponded with Christopher. I'd just like to say a huge thank you for coming along to talk to us today. Um, I think when I first heard of Courage Day, [01:03:00] I thought it was just about the courage of suppressed writers. Um, but but to hear, um, more about this very courageous, um, writer himself and how he, um, thrived and survived in, um, in repressive times. And this wonderful, uh, legacy that he's left behind that you have revitalised for us. And, um, and drawn to our attention. So thank you so much for doing that, Um, for for bringing him to life. And [01:03:30] this is, um this is just a little thank you. So thank you very much, Christopher.

IRN: 3390
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_archives_zine_launch.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004608
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089902
TITLE: Queer Archives Zine launch
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ailish Wallace-Buckland; Caitlin Lynch; Ciara O'Callaghan; Compass Wilts-Ramsay; Kiefer Hunt; Roger Swanson; Will Hansen
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Ailish Wallace-Buckland; Alexander Turnbull Library; Bitches Witches and Dykes (magazine); Caitlin Lynch; Ciara O'Callaghan; Compass Wilts-Ramsay; Devotion Festival (Wellington); Hannah Benbow; Joan of Arc; Kiefer Hunt; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); National Library of New Zealand; Pink Triangle (magazine); Roger Swanson; Sappho; The Archive is Alive (zine); Tiriti o Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi; Wellington Zine Fest; Will Hansen; access; accessibility; archives; arson; digital archive; digitisation; hidden history; history; joyfulness; pink triangle (symbol); pride; stickers; youth; zines
DATE: 2 October 2020
YEAR: 2020
LOCATION: National Library of New Zealand, 70 Molesworth Street, Thorndon, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the launch of the collaborative zine The Archive is Alive. The zine was the outcome of an intensive archival workshop. A dozen people delved into LAGANZ (Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand) to discover posters, leaflets, photos and other ephemera relating to LGBTQI+ lives and culture in Aotearoa. The zine reproduced some of this material and reflected on the importance of local queer history to us today. The launch happened at the National Library of New Zealand on Friday 2 October 2020. The zine is available as a free pdf digital download
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: No more, [00:00:30] um, or or, uh um I call call Roger Swanson. I will call. Um uh [00:01:00] uh uh um um uh uh. Um, yeah. Um, I [00:01:30] mm. Thank you for all being here today. Um, I'm gonna be short and sweet, but I just got a few things to say, uh, to let you know how it's gonna run. [00:02:00] My name is Caitlyn. Um, I'm just doing some behind the scenes work, just helping things going. Uh, but yeah, I've been lucky enough to be involved in this amazing project. Uh, that will is gonna talk to us more about before we get into that. I've got a few, uh, health and safety things to keep note of. If there's an earthquake drop, cover hold, um, and be aware of the glass, so yeah, try. Try, be centred. And there's some tables at the back. Uh, the bathrooms the are out [00:02:30] in the corridor and the steel well in the corridor over there. Um, but just let us know if you can't find them either. Uh, our ground floor ones are gender neutral. Um, and finally, if there's a another kind of emergency or alarm goes or whatever, Um the staff here will guide us out. So just follow their lead. Yeah. So now will's gonna talk a bit about what this project is. Why, how it came about, um, and why? Why? It's important or why we had such a good time doing it. And then [00:03:00] we're gonna let some of the participants come up here and just speak a little bit about about their page or their experience of exploring. Uh um, yeah. And then we'll close off the ceremony with a formal submission of A to the archives to, you know, tie up all the awesome cool. Right? I'll let will take it away. Thank you, everyone. Thank you so so so much for being here. I'm feeling [00:03:30] really overwhelmed with the amount of support and everyone that showed up. We were expecting, like, 15 people. So, you know, thank you so much for coming out. Um, for those who don't know me, my name is Will Hanson. I'm a wannabe queer historian and a trustee of the Lisbon and Gay Archives of New Zealand. Uh, otherwise known as Gans. Um, yeah. Thank you so much for coming along to this event. This is the first launch party of the collaboration between Lagan and Wellington Zine Fest for the first edition of [00:04:00] our collaborative zine that we made hopefully the first of many, um, events and zines that we'll have, uh, we call this. The archive is alive because history is always talking to us, and it sounds cliche, but it's important that we listen and that we learn to listen well, something that I've learned when I've been studying history for the last few years is that the ability to listen to and learn from history is really a skill that everyone is always engaged in. Um, And for queer people, it can often be a life saving [00:04:30] one. Um, learning the legacies of queer struggle and queer joy and queer everything else. Um, uh, the kind of everything that we're born into that has been silenced that has been suppressed, that has been taken away from us. Um, gives us a sense of belonging, a sense of place, a sense of pride and a sense of power. Our histories are so important, and I believe that our histories do sit at the heart of our activism. You know, for me personally, um, history is absolutely vital, as when I'm feeling hopeless. [00:05:00] I think about all of the change that my queer elders, my queer ancestors have made and how that means that I can make change to how things have changed so much before now and how things will inevitably change in the future. We also called the zine The archive is alive. Um, as a reflection of the fact that despite attempts to erase queer history and specifically to, um, destroy Lagan, Lagan was subject to an arson attack in 1986. Um, the archive still [00:05:30] is here. The archive is still alive, still thriving. Another title we played around with. But we ended up discussing it because it just didn't really fit on the cover was the presence of Queer History, which was a play on words supposed to indicate that queer history is a gift. It's so something that is so important and heartwarming and joyful for us to explore, but also to indicate the fact that history is constantly unfolding, that it's not just about, um, the past, the past, but also about what's happening today [00:06:00] and the fact that we need to try really hard to document it especially in this digital age when things are getting lost because they're posted on Facebook events and such, and then once they're taken down, they get lost to the Internet. So it's about kind of really giving people that sense that what's happening today is queer history, and it is important. And it is important to be archived. Yeah, this project came about, uh, between, uh conversations with me and Caitlin, uh, Caitlin from Wellington Fest because we both felt this real importance [00:06:30] of archives of history. And we also felt the inaccessibility of both of these, um, both of these institutions, you know, both of us have been really lucky to study, uh, history courses up at university and they bring you down to the archives, and they give you a really warm welcome to the archives. But for people who, um, just don't have I never had access to an archive before. I've never been able to go to an archive. Um, it can be really intimidating and a really daunting place. Um, and although, you know, we try really hard at LA to make [00:07:00] history accessible, we are entirely volunteer run and we rely on grants and the good will of donors, uh, to survive. Um, so you know, if you want to see our archives, you have to be in person, in Wellington on site, um, and you have to have the confidence and the privilege to negotiate these kinds of institutions. So again, yeah, it can be really daunting. So we're always trying to create new pathways of access. Uh, one exciting thing that's happening, which hopefully a lot of you have already heard about is that, uh, Ganz is going to digitise our archives [00:07:30] soon, so that's really exciting. Um, that will make things so much easier for everyone to, um to access. People will just be able to google, you know, trend history and will come up, and they will be able to see the primary resource for themselves, which I think will make a huge difference. Um, but in the meantime, you know, I've been thinking a lot about, um how to, um, make the gas more accessible for the kinds of communities that I'm part of, um, trans communities, young queer communities. [00:08:00] Um, and so talking with, uh, with Caitlin and with the rest of the crew at Wellington fest. Um we came up with this project because we hope it will be helpful for our community. And we kind of join together in this belief that that, you know, queer youth need to be uplifted and knowing, um that they are queer history in the making that their lives are important. And just as their lives are important, so are their archives. Um, so I hope that everyone who engages at the scene, uh, can feel, uh, understand that and feel [00:08:30] that same emotion. So, um, this project began with a call for a small group of participants, Um, for an intensive two-day workshop the first day we had here at the National Library. Thank you to the National Library and Hannah in particular for hosting us. Where have you gone, Hannah? Uh, thanks, Hannah. Most important place to be, um, Hannah helped us so, So much printed out stacks and stacks of things. Um, So and, um, helped us navigate the world of the Alexander [00:09:00] Tumble Library's photo stream, which is now littered with naked gay male images. So, um, I'm really sorry to anyone who got really surprising those Thank you, Hannah, for putting up with all of that. Um so day one was here with Hannah with the national Library. Roger Swanson from LA who's really one. He's the life blood of, um, we were so lucky to hear from him about his involvement in the organisation Um, his own journey with with archiving and with queer history. Um, And then I gave a [00:09:30] couple of talks about how we can engage critically with our histories and our archives. Um, and we had lots of really cool discussions about this. We talked about, um, questions like, how can Lagan make itself more useful for, um, for our, you know, diverse queer communities? Um, how can Gans take more of a role in activism? Lagan was founded as an aid for the national Gay Rights Coalition, Um, which was an activist organisation that sprung out of gay liberation. So how does how does that activist history translate to today [00:10:00] All of these kinds of things we considered, um And then finally the participants were given the opportunity to sit down with the archives and have, like, a good in depth look at them. I really wish we'd had, like, two weeks to run this workshop because you could spend so, so long. Just, um, talking about all of this and sitting down looking at the archives. But unfortunately, we only had the days. So we did that all in one big long day, thanks to all the participants for getting through all of that. And, uh, day two. So I head over to Masuko, which is on street. It's a, um, new place that started up. Um, that's [00:10:30] really important to support, uh, because they're doing a lot of creative stuff in the community, and they gave us the space to start designing our So we did all of the cool. All everything you see in here was all made made there out of the photocopies that Hannah painstakingly printed off for us. Um, yeah, and that was really, really fun. Um, I think that I'm really, really happy with the final product. Um, I just Yeah, I just wish that we had more time to do even more, but, um, printing cost is a lot, so it's probably good [00:11:00] we don't, uh I just want to say some final Thank you. Thank you. Roger and Hannah. Uh, for all of the efforts you've put into making this workshop work. We just just couldn't have done it without you. Um, and the knowledge and the skill and the patience and the time and the patience, Um, that you brought, uh, to working with us. Um, thank you. Uh, Liam and Caitlyn from Wellington. This all started with just us having a little chat. Um, and you guys actually made it a reality, which is really cool. You worked so hard on getting the funding application, Um, [00:11:30] and just doing all of that organisational stuff that goes right over my head. So, um, you know, thank you for your passion and your dedication to local creatives. Um, and Lucy as well. I'm always so impressed with Wellington's infest and the way that you support local creatives and local communities. And if you don't know Wellington Zen Fist, I feel like most of you are here because of them. But if you don't know them, definitely check them out. They're, like, the most one of the most important and vital institutions that we have in, um really uplifting, uplifting local creatives. So turning dreams into realities, [00:12:00] as in this case. So thank you, Wellington Zan fist. Thank you, Caitlyn. And Liam and Lucy. Um, who else? Oh, and lastly, I want to thank all of the all of our contributors. So Aish. Wallace Buckland Andrew McAuley, Caitlyn Lynch Kiera O'Callaghan, Compas Ramsey, Emma Hurley, Frankie Barrio kfa hunt. Liam GTA um, on me. Um, then thank you to me. No, thank you to everyone, [00:12:30] Um, for participating. I'm really, really stoked with it. I hope you guys are all stoked with it. It came out so well. We spent so long at warehouse station. You bring this out. Um, and also everyone be sure to check out the hidden little sticker envelope. We printed out Some stickers stick those around. People have been tearing down my stickers. I stick them right back up. And now you all have some stickers to stick up too. So thanks so much for coming along. Um, and listening to me ramble. [00:13:00] So now, do any of the contributors wanna come up and talk about their end pages? Yeah. Um, hi. I'm not gonna talk for long because I hope that the zine kind of talks for itself. Um, but this was a really cool experience for me. I think [00:13:30] it was very validating it kind of was 0 to 100. Like a lot of the time when you're looking for queer representations or history, it's like you're looking for like a needle in a haystack or you watch like, eight seasons of a TV show to find the one maybe lesbian couple. I don't know. Um, so being able just being bombarded with, like, pages and pages of like, um, queer history that wasn't just like I don't know, orientated around law reform [00:14:00] or suffering was very empowering. And I made this page that to reclaim the past, um, the future is clearer. It's fine, um, kind of to like represent something that I saw as like ubiquitous between what we looked at from decades and decades decades ago and what I see in my own life, which is like queer joy, queer dancing, queer, partying and smiling and fun and love. And I think [00:14:30] it's really important to represent that, And that's we should talk about that just as much as we talk about suffering and oppression, because that is what queer people are as well, you know, we don't just die at the end of movies. We don't just cry because we can't get married. Um, we don't just have unrequited love. It's for me. And like, probably every queer person I know and every and looking through these, um, archives as well, like this magazine called Devotion, which was [00:15:00] all about devotees and what you love and queer dance parties. And, you know, there was so much positivity in that, and I think that's something I really bought. Um, like I took away from from this experience and something that we should all remember, um, and kind of the idea of countering mainstream narratives of LGBT plus history, um, and celebrating love as much as we kind of mourn suffering and loss, which is also a really [00:15:30] important part. But we shouldn't orientate kind of LGBT history around how we've been treated. It should be about how we treat each other. And all I see from like, even just an example of this workshop is just like love and interest and curiosity, and I, like, feel lucky to be queer. I don't feel like it's, um, something sad. So I feel like that's why I put this page. Um, yeah, and just [00:16:00] so yeah, just a shout out to all the people on that page and all the people in Wellington and that were there. And Liam and And Will and Caitlin and everyone who organised this whole workshop because it made me very happy And also emotional. So Yeah, Thank you. We've got Compass and Keeper coming to talk to us next. Yeah, [00:16:30] uh, we're trans. So we did pages about that, which is super fun. We enjoyed it very much. Um, yeah, I, I think going into this Oh, wait. I also put together the page that has all of the naked men on it. That was Yeah. That one. Yeah. You're welcome. Yes, There it is. Yeah. So basically, this the the green page there. Kiera and I did together. It was, like, right at the end of the second day, and we were like, Oh, no, we finished everything. What should [00:17:00] we do now and then, um, I basically just, like glued gender to a page, and then we just kind of went with that, and we were like, what is gender? And then we were like, gender is really stupid. Um, So, um, some examples that we have up there is like, gender is everything that I've dropped on the floor so far. Um, dermatologists hate it. All of that sort of stuff we have Casper the Friendly Ghost. Um, which was K's contribution. Loved it very much. That wasn't the only contribution. I promise. Every all of the the like pictures on there [00:17:30] are from because I sat there and been like, Oh, what should I write down then actually went and did stuff? Um, yeah. Um Then this next page is my page that I did by myself. Um, but being non binary because being non-binary is like, super sexy. Um, and all of these quotes there are from trans care, um, which was a magazine that I don't really know that much about. But they have, like, really cute things in them. Just being like being Trans is like, really awesome. I wanted to put [00:18:00] that on a page and just be like there wasn't really anything about being non-binary in the archives just because that language didn't really exist back then. So I was like, I'm I'm gonna make it myself. So that, like the next archives, like non-binary, people can look at it and be like, Oh, yeah, that existed. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. So I made the, um, next couple pages which are quite like minimalistic, but, um, I want to focus on the fact that, like, throughout my oh, by the way, that's me and my boyfriend who is here. So shout out to him. [00:18:30] Um, um and I wanted to focus on the fact that, like, I think I've grown a lot throughout my own like, trans journey because I started off being like nobody can know. I'm Trans. I gotta like transition. And then I got to be like, this is hideous guy you've ever seen. And then it's like nobody can know, ever. And then it was like through events such as these, and like meeting other like, wonderful trans people. Um, I realised that actually, it's OK to be proud to be trans and like, I'm OK with people knowing. And I think it's cool that people know. [00:19:00] Um, and I got, like, I had to focus on, um, top surgery scars because I got top surgery in January of this year, Um, which was, like, a really big thing for me because it was like I could I could suddenly switch from like, hating my body to like actually enjoying it. And I enjoy living in my trans body. Um, and I focused on that because, um, near the start of it, I was like, I'm gonna have and like, that's fine. And like, it's gonna be kind of weird and my nipples be kind of weird, but that's fine. And now it's like now it's like like [00:19:30] I have scars and I think they're awesome. And I like looking at them in the mirror and, like, my nipples kind of aren't fully coloured. But I'm proud of my body because I managed to heal that way, and it's like it was a big surgery. So I'm like, proud and I appreciate how my body healed. Um, so I wanted to focus on that and then sort of the just the idea of, like, it's beautiful to be Trans. And I'm like, so proud of all my Trans who, like, exist like that because it can be hard. But I appreciate it so much. Um, and I also really [00:20:00] appreciate my family for helping me get top surgery. And like when I first transitioned the person who was like on it straight away was my little sister. And I don't think I've ever heard her muck up. Ever. Um, even though she's literally known me her whole life as, um, like, maybe something else for a little bit. Um, but yeah. So this is a really important experience to me. Especially as I'm moving to palmy next year because it's, like, my final sort of thing of like leaving something behind [00:20:30] with the queer Wellington community. Um, even though I'll like be back because, like, this is my home, it's like I. I like the idea of having something permanent in the archives to be like, Yeah, that's me. So yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. Um, does anyone else wanna share anything? Yeah. Eish. [00:21:00] Oh, So I did a couple of pages, and then I come from a yeah. History, pure history, background, looking at queer history. So I thought, um, it'd be interesting to sort of capture the vibe of what we were going for with the workshop and sort of reclaiming our history and making history as well has already talked about, um, through making this scene. So excuse me. Um, so the at the bottom [00:21:30] here is parts from the Pink Triangle magazine. Um, and I I'm sure a lot of you are aware of what the pink triangle symbolises, but, um, so there's, like, a little explanation of how it was used during the Second World War for homosexual men and, um, in concentration camps and sort of like a bit about how, during sort of gay liberation time, sort of reclaiming that symbol that was used as something to demarcate and oppress, Um, and sort of making [00:22:00] that part of our own, uh, sort of joy in history like switching that up and then at the top was this part from, uh, also from Pink Triangle magazine, uh, about reclaiming the past and looking for, um it was mostly focused on queer women in the past and looking for that sort of history. There's a bit where it's like Joan of Arc. Um uh and me sort of vibe. Sort of like making those connections to people in the past, Um, which [00:22:30] I thought was just really cool with all images as well. Sort of. Someone else has put those together, and I've now stolen them and put them on my cool. Do you want to go to the next one, and then I've also done a, um, a page that sort of took snippets from Yeah, this one took snippets from, uh, the Michael I papers and the magazine bitches, Witches and dykes. Um, and sort of. I was just sort of looking for things that I think is still sort of relevant to [00:23:00] queer community and protest and, um, things that we talk about now And like looking at where that is in the past and how it might have been talked about then, as opposed to now. So there's, like, bits about, um, the treaty screwing capitalism over, but about the police. Um, this is really fun cartoon. Sort of like in the top. Right? Where it's these two, lesbian lovers. Uh, and the little caption is, uh, first of all, why don't we talk about politics before this goes [00:23:30] any further? It was fun. Um, yeah, just looking at, like, those intersectional struggles or ideas that we still talk about now, which I thought was cool to find that in the archive. Yeah. So that's my any last last thoughts. Cool. Ok, well, I think they will move on to our final event [00:24:00] of the evening. The official handover. Um, so So we've got Rhonda here from Well, do you want it? You should do it. So is on the legal deposit team at at National Library. I am? Yeah. And this is just really, um, beautiful this event, so yeah. Um, it's amazing. So cool. So, what are we doing about? I think I'll just hand it [00:24:30] and also Roger. Do you want to accept it on behalf of Gans? Yeah. Thank you, Will. And, um thank you all the team that put this together, [00:25:00] it's really amazing. Um, it was a great privilege to have will at me. Um, get get material up for the for the for this workshop. And, um, we had a long list of suggestions, and, um and so I spent a few days hauling stuff up, which was great. And I was thinking, Well, you know, it's interesting. What What's gonna come of it? Because I have not much idea of zines. It's not my territory at all. And, um and so it was. But it's great having people expressing their reactions to collection items. And I know in the Turnbull [00:25:30] Library we have um, people in tears, people dancing out of the room because they've found something that I've been looking for for ages or it's moved them so over through the motion that they can. You know that because the little object they found a bit of text. The letter they've just read from from an ancestor, um, have been really moving. And this is our ancestry. Um, and it's great to have people being moved by it, and it's great that it's it comes alive. And that's the idea of the archive is not a dead thing [00:26:00] that you put in boxes and never see again. It's something that's brought out and used and and makes change and that I will see The archive was founded as an activist, organised as an activist thing and was there to make change in the world. And, um and hopefully this is this is another step along the way. So thank you, will. Thank you, Caitlin. And thank you, everybody for coming tonight and for the group that put this together. Well done. Thank you. [00:26:30] We also just have a little thank you for for Roger and Hannah. Um, which we will deliver. Um The one final thing I want to say is that we as you may have noticed, we've sold out of copies tonight because about five times as many people came as anticipated, which is awesome, which is great. But if you want a copy, one option is to come to Wellington Zine Fest, which is [00:27:00] next weekend on the 10th and 11th of October at, um, uh, the architecture and design campus on Vivian Street. Will and I are going to be there on the Sunday with a stall with, um this scene and also like heaps of other like, cool history scenes and queer scenes. So, yeah, come on down. Um, yeah, it's a cool thing to check out. The other thing is that, like, the only reason we have a price on this is for print costs. If you want a digital copy of it for [00:27:30] you to print out yourself or to, like, just look at digitally. Um, just email Wellington Zine fest at gmail dot com, and we'll just send you the PDF cool. So it's Wellington Zine fest at gmail dot com, or come here, chat to us. Anyway, thank you so much for coming.

IRN: 3375
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/national_schools_pride_week.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004607
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089901
TITLE: National Schools Pride Week
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Tabby Besley
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; COVID-19 (coronavirus); COVID-19 lockdown; Day of Silence; InsideOUT Kōaro; Kapiti College; Levin Intermediate; National Schools Pride Week; Nayland Alliance of Gays and Straights (NAGS); Nayland College; Nelson; Out on the Shelves; Pink Shirt Day; Pride; Pride parade; Shift hui; Tabby Besley; Taupo; Tawa College; Wellington; Wellington High School; Whanganui Girls College; Youth; Zoom (online video conferencing); accessibility; anxiety; baking; bookmark; discord. com; diversity and inclusion; diversity education; diversity group; early childhood centre; faith-based school; gender diverse; history; inclusion; inclusive space; kahoot. com; library; pandemic; poetry; primary school; pronouns; queer straight alliance (QSA); school; teacher; teaching; whakapapa
DATE: 28 August 2020
YEAR: 2020
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Tabby Besley, Managing Director of InsideOUT, talks about the first ever National Schools Pride Week. The week ran 24-28 August 2020 with over 100 schools taking part.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm tabby bes. I'm the managing director at inside out. Uh, so the history of National Schools Pride Week. Well, it's very recent history, because this is our first year. Um, it sort of came about, um, kind of building upon the day of silence campaign, that inside out has been running, um, nationally since 2014. And I guess, um, yeah, over the time of of running that campaign, which is kind of international and is around the, um, creating more awareness around the silencing effects of bullying and discrimination [00:00:30] in our schools, Um, particularly for young people from the rainbow community. Um, what we found is that yeah, it sort of started to feel like it was less relevant and a lot more, um, schools that were taking part in that some of them were actually turning into a a more of a, um, like Wellington High school. Um, for example, turning into an out loud day, so sort of, um, flipping it and, um went for some schools in, like, turning into a real pride celebration and having music and ice box. And, um so [00:01:00] I guess a really important part of that campaign was always around How do we break the silence? Um, and create spaces to celebrate our identities and make it OK and make those changes. So yeah, I guess we sort of have taken that feedback, um, that we've been seeing from schools, and we sort of, um, put a survey out and lots of people were really keen to see a pride week. Um, but we also got feedback that for some schools, the day of silence campaign is still, um, really relevant. And it's kind of the one opportunity they found to have to really highlight the bullying [00:01:30] that our communities face. And, um, it's been really important for them. So we sort of, um, have still provided that as an option and kept all of the resource that is up. Um, and so that was last Friday. So the Friday before Pride Week starts. So the idea is that Pride week then breaks the silence, Um, after the day of silence for those that want to take part in that. So, um yeah, I guess that's a little bit of kind of how it's come about. Some schools, uh, have been doing pride for a long time. Um, so my high school and college back in the day, we did [00:02:00] used to, um, run a pride week. So it's quite exciting now, kind of more than 10 years later looking at, um, how we've got over 100 schools involved doing Pride Week around the country just to backtrack just a little bit. Could you just tell me where the day of silence came from? Yeah. So it originated. Um, I believe in the 19 eighties in America, um and yeah, from there just kind of expanded. And I believe there's, like, over 70 countries worldwide that have taken part and then jumping forward to the Pride weeks [00:02:30] with, uh, say natal in college 10 years ago. What, uh, Drew na college to want to do a week, I guess. Just an opportunity, really to to Yeah, celeb celebrate. And, um, yeah, be be proud and kind of, um, spread awareness around the school a bit more because I think often rain diversity groups. Sometimes they can be very living in their little pockets. And there might not be much actual awareness of the rest of the school community around that. That group even exists. Or, um, what [00:03:00] that means or, you know, that kind of normalising our identities. So, um, yeah, I'm I'm not 100% sure for that specific. Um, start of that. But I imagine it would have been around some of those ideas. And so this year is the first national schools Pride Week. How did, um, schools react to the idea? Yeah. We've had such a positive response from schools. Uh, it's been awesome. As I said, over 100 have signed up from right from an early childhood institute [00:03:30] to several kind of tertiary, um, institutions, um, mostly secondary schools, a handful of kind of primary and intermediates as well. And yeah, people have just been Yeah, really keen We ran out of. We sent 10,000 kind of rainbow stickers out across the country and, um, ran out, um, very quickly. So, yeah, it's been really cool as well to just kind of see some of the activities that people have been doing, Um, coming up on social media. And so, what kind of activities have people been planning? Uh, all sorts of things. Um, [00:04:00] it's pride parades in schools. Um, kind of pride markets and stores. A lot of bake sales um, one I particularly loved we saw last night was at girls college. They did. They got all their school houses involved to do a baking, or, like a cake decoration competition themed around pride. And the cakes look very impressive. Um, on their facebook page, if anyone wants to check it out. Um, so, yeah, that was a cool one. Lots of, um, face painting cahoots. Which is like a quiz where you can [00:04:30] Yeah, ask questions. I think people can answer on their phones, and we put one up around, um, identifying different pride flags on our website as a resource that people can use. Um, people have been using it as an opportunity to kind of educate within their school. So doing workshops for teachers or, um, one school today was doing an ally ship workshop for students on how to be better allies to, um, Rainbow communities. Uh, one really cool has been to every day. They've been uploading, um, little Instagram videos on called their Pride [00:05:00] guide. And so they've covered things like history, representation in the media pronouns and kind of different topics. They're doing just a few minutes each day, and that's going out to the school community. So this sounds completely different to when I went to school all those decades ago. Um, has anything surprised you because it just sounds so kind of like open and inclusive, I don't think has surprised me, but I can imagine it would surprise a lot of people [00:05:30] who aren't as kind of caught up in the day to day of, like, how things have been changing and and part of that because I think for me, we working really actively with schools across this time. I guess it feels like a more gradual thing, whereas I guess for people that aren't as aware of kind of those changes or what or what's going on or connected with those schools or young people I can imagine it must be like, Oh, wow, there's suddenly all this like, um yeah, pride and celebration. And I guess for me it's more that it's taken, you know, it's taken a lot of work to get to that place. Um, [00:06:00] but we have seen some. Yeah, quite a few, like faith based schools taking part, which is always, you know, it really kind of signifies the times of change. um uh, live in intermediate. That was one of my favourites. And they've been actually doing really cool things. They did like a, um, a pride disco and a like a lunchtime concert and things. So yeah, And in terms of kind of geographic spread of these schools from all across the country or specific parts, Yeah. No, it's been pretty kind of across the country. Um, yeah. [00:06:30] I don't have the little graph in front of me, but, um, yeah, pretty wide widespread around New Zealand. And you're saying, uh, is the intermediate school the the kind of youngest age group that's taking part in in schools? No. So there was at least one early childhood that registered, um, and a few primary schools as well. Yeah, it's pretty cool. So, what do you put down to this? This kind of move towards kind of inclusivity? Uh, a few things. I think. Obviously, the more awareness and representation that there is, um [00:07:00] yeah, kind of in a and and globally, obviously has a huge impact. And we're seeing more and more young people able to kind of come out younger. Not that they haven't been there in previous generations. It's just, um yeah, now that they're open. And we held last night a youth panel for pride, um, week with some young people, um, sharing their experiences and quite a lot of others, um, shared through Facebook comments and on the zoom chat as well about their experiences. And, um, several people were actually talking about experiences with with a previous [00:07:30] or I think some current as well intermediate students. Um, And what's that? What? That's kind of like and, um, yeah, to me, it's really exciting. Um, I feel like just now we're in sort of this time when, you know, even a few years ago, it would be very rare for us to hear about an intermediate student who was kind of open around two or kind of trying to figure that out. Um, and we're seeing a lot more primary schools get in touch, particularly around the gender diverse Children. Um, wanting to be kind of open at school or wanting support for that, [00:08:00] Um so I think just a lot more awareness. And as society becomes more accepting, obviously that starts to be replicated in our schools as well. Um, but of course, inside out work. Um, I'm sure has been a huge kind of part of that, actually having those resources out there, um, for schools in a place that they can come to students can come to their families can come to to get that, um, yeah. Support advocacy resources to enable those, um, changes within school. Do you find after [00:08:30] doing, um, something like this Pride week? You get a lot more inquiries from schools wanting to set up, Um, um, support groups or individual students? Yeah. And it's one of the questions we ask when they register. Actually is. Do you have a group? Do you want one? So we can sort of follow up afterwards and kind of say awesome that you've done this. And how can we support you to kind of maintain and kind of do that ongoing, um, work as well? Are the activities being driven by the students or by the the the the teachers or principals? [00:09:00] Um, a bit of both. Uh, there was a really nice comment on the workshop last night where, uh, one of the youth advisory group members who's been organising pride in their school, talked about how their, um, students and staff would really come together for organising pride. And it that was something you don't often see in a school. That real collaboration to kind of put something together, which was really cool. Um, and some other I know some teachers who were listening They kind of reflected similar things that happened in their schools, which was awesome. But I think it does. Yeah. Depend on the school a lot of the time. I guess it can be a lot [00:09:30] more student, um, driven, particularly in schools where there may not be as much staff support. Um, but I think we've seen as well, particularly for Rambo teachers. It's something they are quite often keen to get involved with. Um, yeah, so a real variety. So the weeks run from the 24th to the 28th of August. So we're actually on the last day today. Why this time of the year? Because in in New Zealand, normally kind of pride is around kind of March. February? Yes. So it was meant to [00:10:00] be in June. Um, but obviously this year we experienced the COVID-19 pandemic. And so during, um, June, well, we'd just come out of lockdown and the country had just come out of lockdown before June. And so we I guess at the time we decided to postpone, we didn't know how long we'd be in lockdown, and we wanted to make sure that schools still had time to organise it and didn't feel too kind of rushed. So, um and not yeah, have. Hopefully, um, that they would have, you know, been back in level [00:10:30] one and not have to have the concerns around social distancing. Um, so we postponed it to August for that reason. And then, um obviously, just before, um, if you can't remember now a week or two before that, we the whole country has gone back into level two, and Auckland, unfortunately, is back in lockdown. Which means Auckland schools haven't been able to participate. Um, and so some of them we've seen doing things online, which is really cool. Um, but I think most of them are looking to kind of postpone in, um, this year because [00:11:00] of COVID-19. Um, Pink Shirt day has also got postponed to October. So many of them are are looking to run week the same week as Pink Shirt Day in October and kind of bring those two together, which will be cool. Um, And because we're working with schools, um, whereas most regions around celebrate pride in February march for schools, it's the very start of the school year. It's just not practical in terms of giving them time to organise or those students being able to step forward. Yeah, So you've touched on COVID-19. And I wonder just more generally, [00:11:30] how has inside out coped with, uh, this this global pandemic? Yes. It's been a very interesting time. Um, I think we've done yeah, really? Well, our staff and volunteers have just been amazing, Um, kind of coming together, uh, at the start of I guess the the pandemic and, um, lockdown. We had to turn our annual shift to event, um, into an online event instead. So it usually happens for four days on, and, um, we turned it into a two [00:12:00] line 22 line two week about, say, two years, two week, uh, event, um, via zoom and discord. Um, and it just been amazingly uh, yeah, it was incredible. Still, all these young people from around the country kind of getting involved, And, um, we didn't know if we create the same feelings of connection that you do in that kind of real life community environment. Um, but people reflected that. They really did. And we still did, kind of all pretty much all the things that we usually do. Like the talent show, [00:12:30] um, for example, via but thankful at times. But mostly was yeah, really, really awesome. Uh, so that was a really big thing for us right at the start that we had to adapt to very quickly. Um, Then we ran a series of kind of online workshops and focused on putting out, um, yeah, support of social media and just letting our community, you know, that we were there for them. And, um, yeah, Still trying to hold events to kind of help people feel connected. And, um, yeah, those went really well, And, [00:13:00] um, yeah, I guess we experienced other things. Obviously, uh, several of our, um, staff are schools coordinators around the country, and they weren't able to be going into schools for that time, so they just had to Yeah, sort of adapt again, doing things online, or, uh, working on resources and other bits and pieces during that time. Um, and our education services kind of had a big drop off. Obviously, we can deliver workshops during that time, so, yeah, that was, um, yeah, but difficult. Like closing kind of expected income [00:13:30] for a few months as well. But, um, yeah, overall, I think, Yeah, we've just adapted really well, and it's we've learned new things from it, too, in terms of what we can do online and how, um, I guess particularly again as a national organisation, ways to kind of be more accessible to people, too. So, yeah, ups and downs. And what about the feedback from from, uh, younger people in terms of how have they reacted to COVID-19 and lockdowns? Um, it's quite [00:14:00] yeah, it's quite mixed. I don't think we know enough about it. So I understand The Minister of Youth Development is currently doing a bit of a project to try and learn more about ramping and people's experiences, Um, in particular, which is really good and important. Um, some of the work they have done already shows that rugby young people were kind of more negatively impacted. And I guess one of the main areas is around that, um for those that are in living in unsupportive kind of home environments. And so in a yeah, unsupportive bubble, not having that support [00:14:30] around and whereas usually they might be able to, you know, go to their own diversity group once a week or have their friends at school or those kinds of things Um, yeah, Obviously that wasn't there. And for some people to if, um, they didn't have Internet access Or, you know, if everyone in their family was using WiFi or some young people, for example, couldn't take part in shift because, um, yeah, because of those kind of Internet issues or their family were working from home and wouldn't let them use WiFi during work hours so that it wasn't too slow and things like that. So, um yeah, those [00:15:00] kinds of barriers. Um I think for quite a few people to coming out of that lockdown period like anxiety has been quite a a big issue for people in the community like that. Kind of going out and being around people again. Um, and I guess another one that we've seen is for a lot of people, it was quite a reflective time. And so we've seen more and more young people. Um, who came out of that lockdown experience the first time. And, um, have during that time been kind of questioning their identity or have made decisions that when they go back [00:15:30] to school, actually, they want to be called by this name and these pronouns and things like that. So, um, yeah, I definitely saw quite a few schools. Um, more schools reaching out. Kind of panicking about how to support students. Um, with some of those challenges which must make something like, um, schools Pride Week happening after lockdown. Um, just so much more. Um uh, important, I guess. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I haven't thought of that. Um, yeah, we're [00:16:00] at the end of the week now, And I wonder, uh, one, how the week was for you and the kind of feedback you've had and any standout events. Yeah, it's been really great. Um, I've loved seeing, particularly on instagram what different schools and groups that are doing. And, um, getting to see that visual kind of element. Um, because obviously we can't be in every school around the country, so it's Yeah, it's really cool to get little glimpses into what people are doing and what that kind of means. Um, [00:16:30] for them, um, it's been a very busy week as well, and I think as well because this year we had such a small, um, budget to run the campaign off. It was the first time and lock down on all these all these things. Um, yeah. It's really great to see the response it has had and also already getting all these ideas and, um, excited for how we can kind of build upon it for the future, often as well. It's not until after the week that we you know, when we sort of do an evaluation survey, ask everyone, Please send us your photos that we get to kind of learn more about it. [00:17:00] So, um, yeah, there's not one thing that stands out to me at the moment, but I'm looking forward to kind of learning more about what's happened. So what are the plans for next year and in the Pride Week? Yeah, well, I think first it we're just really excited to, um, put out a survey and, um, encourage people to kind of give feedback on what's worked for them this year and what their ideas are. I think we'll get a lot from hearing. Um, yeah, what different schools and groups have done to take part, and that will give us lots of great ideas for further activities. [00:17:30] Um, hopefully next year, we can move it back to June. Um, because I think what we've noticed is a lot of, um, young people, because June is kind of Pride month in America and other places, and they're often really connected to that on social media and things. Um, that we often see them celebrating online things around pride in June. So hopefully we can do around that timing to come tie in with that. Um, hopefully Auckland can take part at the same time as everyone else. Um, I think, too, there's lots more we can do around. Um, [00:18:00] this year we chose different themes for each kind of day, um, of pride and built some activities around those, but yeah, I think we can just kind of grow that more. And for ourselves as well. Maybe looking at what we can put out online each day to tie in with the theme or, um, yeah, just more ways to kind of get people involved. And, um, I loved Yeah, the panel, The youth panel that we did worked really well. So I would love to do that. Or maybe look at other events. We also did an instagram poetry live, um, to tie in with that out on the shelves [00:18:30] campaign, which has been running along the same time. So that's been cool. So So what were the themes per day? So today is Friday. So it's where your pride so kind of pride and celebration theme to end the week on and the other themes were history and inclusion and accessibility, health and well-being and education. And you also mentioned, um, out on the shelves. Can you just tell me a little bit about that? Yeah. So, out on the shelves is our campaign to celebrate, um, Rainbow Representation and Stories and Media and, [00:19:00] um, surround getting school and public or community libraries to take part and kind of recognise, um, the yeah, rainbow stories in their collection. So this year, we ran it for two weeks. It's a third year running the campaign and, um, we invite school and public community libraries around the country to put out a display of their rainbow collections or new books. And, um, we've got a website with a database so people can kind of search if they want a gay sci fi book or a sexual [00:19:30] fantasy, um, Children's book. So, yeah, they can sort of browse and kind of find things that help reflect their identities and their experiences back to them. Um, and we also have a set of kind of identity bookmarks, um, with a different kind of flags and different identities and books with characters from that identity which, um, get distributed around the country. So we had, um, definitely over 100 and 50 kind of orders that we've sent out. Um had to order more bookmarks as well. So we always run out of those. So, um, yeah, that's had [00:20:00] a fantastic response as well. And so a lot of, um, schools were also doing that library display at the same time as Pride Week. So right at the start of the interview, you were talking about, uh, some of your experiences at nail college 10 years ago, and I guess just in, um, to to wrap the interview up is are you able to compare what, uh, like pride? And like those pride events 10 years ago, Na College were like to what you're experiencing now I think that school and, you know, and and others around [00:20:30] that kind of time that we're doing things were sort of ahead of the times. You know, like, I don't think there's a huge amount that has changed from my kind of memories. Like thinking about it just then. I was like, Well, yeah, I remember that. You know, we had a rainbow slat in the library, and, um, you know, we did. We did the day of silence. Um, trying to remember what we We used to get the teachers to wear rainbow ribbons. Um, yeah, it probably wasn't as I think we did, like face painting and fake sales and things. Maybe it wasn't quite as kind of out there [00:21:00] as some schools are doing now. So, um yeah, for example, the schools that are doing, like the pride parades in a school, it's pretty awesome. That started at college a couple of years ago. Um, or yeah, things like that kind of market Pride Day. And yeah, really, like more whole school Kind of getting involved in things. Um, the Pride parade. They also, um I think that I attended it. They kind of ended that with a great little kind of concert in the school hall as well. And they had different other like, clubs and groups in the school performing. [00:21:30] And it was really nice to see that support from different groups within the school coming together to show their support for the Rainbow Group and the pride, Um, day. So, yeah, that was that's really cool. But I guess the biggest, um difference or change is just the the scale of it that it's, you know, so many more schools participating and that it's, um yes, not as a so much an out there kind of idea. Um, it's, you know, it's national schools Project. So there's yeah, that sense of kind of, [00:22:00] um yeah, doing it alongside others, and that it's an important kind of meaningful thing that we should get involved with to show our support for rugby. Young people in our school.

IRN: 3373
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/conversion_practices_nz_association_of_counsellors.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004606
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089900
TITLE: Conversion Practices - NZ Association of Counsellors
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Christine Macfarlane
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; COVID-19 (coronavirus); COVID-19 fatigue; Christianity; Christine Macfarlane; New Zealand Association of Counsellors; Wellington; addiction; anxiety; belief systems; conversion / reparative therapy; conversion practices; discrimination; education; gender expression; gender identity; heterosexual; homosexual; hormone replacement therapy (HRT); hormone treatment; identity documents; mental health; mental illness; patriarchal system; queer; religion; religious education; religious homophobia; school counselor; self identification; therapist; training; trans; transgender; youth
DATE: 5 August 2020
YEAR: 2020
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Christine Macfarlane, President of the New Zealand Association of Counsellors, talks about the Association's 2020 policy on conversion practices. Christine also talks about the impact of COVID-19 on counsellors.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm Christine McFarlane. I'm the current president of the New Zealand Association of Councillors. We are an as professional association that has approximately 3000 members who are provisional or full members across New Zealand, working in a variety of different services and, um, community services privately, DH BS schools. And we ensure that there's a code of ethics and, um, good practise [00:00:30] for counsellors. So conversion therapy. So conversion therapy. I dislike the name therapy editor it because in our mind, therapy and counselling and therapy therapy is a positive and supportive process. When I think of conversion therapy, I think of somebody, um, posing another view on somebody else and trying to make them be something or behave in a way that doesn't fit for [00:01:00] them themselves. So using different methods to do that. So methods such as medication? Uh um as such as counselling or therapy. So that's where we get conversion therapy from. And of course, medication is sometimes called me medication therapy. Um, and there's no, um, really clear, positive, good part of, um imposing, [00:01:30] making people be something that they're not so in in conversion therapy. Changing the sexual identity, the idea of their own, um, gender identity, gender and sexual identity. So, in particular about changing somebody who, uh, a young person or an older person who identifies as being queer Rainbow community a transgender to being heterosexual. Being cisgender you. You were saying that you don't [00:02:00] like the term conversion therapy? What term would you use? I'd like to say it's something that because it's a for me, it's a form of violence. It's a form of imposing another person's will because of their thoughts or beliefs. So I don't really know what I would call it. I was thinking about it last night, and I was like, Oh, what would I call it differently? So So just to give it a wee bit of international context, do you know, um, where conversion therapy is used [00:02:30] internationally? From my understanding, it comes from a Christian based belief system, so in in patriarchy and in the sense that, um, heterosexual relationships are the only valid relationships, and that man and woman are the only um, preferred way of being together in terms of, um, heterosexual relationships and that there's no understanding or belief that there is a continuum [00:03:00] or a movement of gender and sexual identity. Um, and that, uh, and the fear that comes from that. So in a in. And this is my opinion, my opinion of going that, uh, people coming from a Christian some people coming from a Christian point of view have a fear of what that means. And so they're trying to impose and and put a Bibles or interpret the Bible in a way that may not be true for anybody [00:03:30] else. And also a part of that is the history of really traditional male female marriage type relationships and that the that This is what our society has been based on for a very long time in New Zealand. Historically, has conversion therapy been an issue? I think it's something that's hidden. I think that what what we could call conversion therapy is [00:04:00] maybe families and people pushing, wanting, um, shutting down young people's own sense of self and choosing their sexual and gender identity so they may not call it, um, conversion therapy. But it's certainly happening in a social context or a family context. Are you able to give some examples of how conversion therapy works? So in that sense, in in what I would call a non formal sense. I was having [00:04:30] a conversation with a family member only last week around a young person who would be in their mid teens. Um, wanting to to be a male gender identity born with female gender and my family member, um said that that they shouldn't be taking any kinds of medication to [00:05:00] to or hormone therapy because they wouldn't know what they want at that age. So this idea of young people not having the knowledge of who they are and older people making that choice for them or shutting down pathways and and that happens a lot in in New Zealand. What about some examples of, say, professional counsellors or other professionals trying to influence people? Oh, definitely. There is that that sense of, [00:05:30] um, working in mental health services where again it's you're too young to know what that means. You don't have the cognitive understanding you. This is just a phase you're going through. Um, there's also within counselling. There is Certainly some people will choose not to work in certain areas because of their own beliefs and, um, experience and knowledge and qualifications. And that's that's what we have in our code of ethics that [00:06:00] you shouldn't work beyond your experience or scope of practise. And if it's something that you have a strong belief in as a counsellor, then then you need to excuse yourself from that kind of work. What would be concerning is when counsellors or therapists work with someone and manipulate or change or impose their own beliefs. And that, and that can be in a variety of different ways. Whether it's to do with leaving a relationship, whether it's about, uh, somebody wanting to, [00:06:30] um own come out as being queer, whether it's somebody who is, um uh using drugs or not using drugs. So there's a variety of different things or looking for a termination that counsellors can be very influential in. And we have to be incredibly aware of our own belief systems and what that means. So it's interesting I. I mean, I've always pictured conversion therapy. As of, you know, it's, uh, a [00:07:00] course that somebody does, you know, and it's quite, um, blatant that this is what's happening. But it sounds very much like, um, it can happen very quietly as well. Yes, I think it can. I think it can happen really quietly and without without even being aware. And I think that's something that we have to be more talking about. So how do we by by our own beliefs or or not knowing enough So and I can't say that I'm I'm an expert in conversion, the therapy at all and [00:07:30] I and I'm I'm learning about the impact and the prevalence in New Zealand. We have to be more aware of our own growing our own self awareness and growing our own knowledge in this in order to not impose that on other people. What happens then when an individual comes to a councillor and says I want to change So it's not necessarily being driven from an external force, but this [00:08:00] person wants that say they're not happy being gay. So for New Zealand Councillors Association, we have a policy that says we cannot do that so that our our conversion policy says that that that is not acceptable. So the way we would work with someone would be to talk about what, what's driving. They want to change and and look at. How can we support you in and being who you are in this world now. What are the impacts of conversion [00:08:30] therapy? A massive mental health problems, um, suicidality loss of identity and loss of a sense of who and where somebody fits that. I'm OK, that sense of I'm OK. I'm an OK person. I'm allowed to be who I am. So whenever there's anything around identity and sense of being that's being damaged or shut down or not allowed, it increases anxiety, depression, self harming suicidality, um, general [00:09:00] sense of un unhappiness and And it can lead to drug and alcohol addiction, um, destructive relationships, it it's just ongoing massive impact. So prior to this policy that the New Zealand Association of Council has has has just, um, put out, was there anything What, was there any kind of framework for dealing with conversion therapy? Not specifically. So in our code of ethics, we have really clear ethical [00:09:30] boundaries. It doesn't specifically talk about conversion therapy, but it does talk about supporting the person in what they need in counselling. So not like I spoke about before, not imposing the counselor's point of view or belief system upon the client, and that can be interpreted differently. So so like what you asked before If somebody came in saying, I want to change. I don't want to be like this. And so therefore, if we stuck with our code [00:10:00] of ethics as it was, it would be, Oh, well, I will support you in your a choice to change. Whereas with the conversion therapy policy, that's that's clearly saying that is not acceptable for a counsellor. Why did the association feel it needed a specific policy and and why now? It came out a couple of years ago when there was a news story on conversion therapy in New Zealand. And so [00:10:30] it it became more in the news. It was something that had been, um, talked about within the association. And, uh, we have an ethics committee. So we, um, put it back to the ethics committee to look at what we as an association, would be best to do. And our ethics secretaries worked on the conversion policy, and it went back and forward to make sure that we had everything that was appropriate and there to support the association and the clients that come [00:11:00] to see councillors going forward. And all our policies get reviewed every two years, So this will be continuously reviewed and to look at what else do we need to do? And one of those things in my mind would be more education in the development of the policy. Did you, um, seek feedback from different communities? Because I imagine, uh, you know, like Rainbow Communities would have one view. Well, probably many views, but families, I imagine, would have quite different [00:11:30] views in terms of saying this isn't conversion therapy at all. Yes. I can't answer. Um, specifically who who the feedback was sought from. When the ethics committee and and ethics secretaries developed the policy. They did do a lot of research and included some some of the research that they did and as, um as references to the policy, they did not specifically seek feedback [00:12:00] from families. Have you had any instances where, uh, you know, you're working with an individual, but the the the family is really, I guess, opposed to, uh, labelling it conversion therapy or just not wanting to anything to do with this? Yes. And that happens a lot around the country. So in in particular with young people. So So the counsellors who are working with the the really vulnerable age of early early teens [00:12:30] through to mid twenties are often encountering uh, difficulties where the young person is coming. The the family may not know or support it and that that the fear from the young person around um, coming out as who they are to their family, their their immediate family or their wider family is incredibly painful and difficult and and shut down. [00:13:00] There's not that opportunity and the family choose not to be part of the, uh, the counselling process, or it would be too damaging for them to come into that process. Is conversion therapy primarily kind of relating to to younger people, or is it a kind of a mixture of ages? I think it would be a mixture of ages. I think we see more young people nowadays because counselling has become more OK. So it's it's more mainstream, whereas it used to be hidden in the past. So [00:13:30] a lot of young people are coming and and our society has changed over time, whereas older people are still a little bit wary or it it feels like I'm I'm being too vulnerable or um for older people. They've got a life that they don't want to disrupt. And what what does that look like? So so we're definitely seeing more younger people. Are you aware of any laws in New Zealand that actually prevent conversion therapy? No, I haven't seen any, [00:14:00] have you? No, no, I haven't I. I think they were looking at that. But I don't think it it has happened. I think we should have. I think we should have laws. It's about protecting, protecting people's rights, to be who they are and and not allowing others to, to damage and hurt them. That, to me, is a is a basic human right. So can you just walk me through what the policy actually does? So the PO policy [00:14:30] has a definition at the beginning and an opening statement saying NZ AC, the New Zealand Councillors Association Um recognise all humans are are free and equal and dignity, and that sexual diversity in including sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression, is part of that human right and that the definition of conversion therapy, which is also known as reparative therapy, [00:15:00] is a pseudo scientific practise or treatment that seeks to change suppress and or eliminate an individual's sexual orientation, gender identity and or gender expression using psychological and or spiritual interventions. And then it it goes into talking about what What we take into consideration is an association that around social prejudice and bias, Um, based [00:15:30] on gender expression, identity and sexual orientation. And, um, some statistics, um, looking at young people and and what? That and what it's like young people in terms of statistics who who are not rejected and who are supported through their gender expression, sexual orientation, expression and ones who weren't so looking at statistics around the impact of not having that support or being, um, shut down [00:16:00] or not allowed to be who they are and some more around research around conversion therapy and the negative outcomes that come from that. Like we talked about Nega Negative self-image, um, difficulty in in terms of, um, living life in a in a healthy, functioning, flourishing way. And then what our, um, position is is is the last part of the policy and that it says we do not condone or [00:16:30] support any therapeutic interventions such as conversion therapy that proactively wish to change a person's sexual orientation. gender identity or gender expression so that we don't support that we do not condone it at all. Um and that we consider this therapy this conversion therapy to perpetuate societal injustice and discrimination and that it's incredibly harmful and not grounded in any legitimate therapeutic practise at all, [00:17:00] and that anyone in our association who was doing some kind of practise like that would be in breach of our code of ethics. And if that was the case, there is a process around making a complaint through our ethics office. If there was any counsellor in New Zealand who was seen to be or who to be practising a conversion therapy so we would see that as a really serious misconduct or, um, offence against a client and [00:17:30] a part. The other part that was has been added, um, put into the policy is that if any other member of the Councillors Association is aware of another counsellor in the association who is practising in this way, that we are obligated to do something about that. So if we are aware of anyone else who who would be practising conversion therapy, who is a member of NZ AC, then We are, um, need to take action in relation to that behaviour, [00:18:00] and I think that's really important. So we're looking out for for people who are vulnerable in in our, um, in this situation and just to clarify when we're talking about, um, identity, Is it the person and how they self identify, or is it through things like, you know, um, identity documents, like birth certificates? Um, self identity? Yeah. So it's about their own own sense [00:18:30] of identity. OK, has there been any pushback from any of the counsellors? Because I I'm assuming there are also all the counsellors still practising that had gone through the seventies, where things were still mental illnesses. Has there been any pushback from No, and and And we have published, uh, our policy, the conversion therapy policy on the website and also to members and through our newsletter, Uh uh, the [00:19:00] ethics secretaries wrote an article to, um to introduce the policy to the members, and we haven't had any pushback at all, and and nobody, nobody within the association has said, you know, why are we doing this or what's at all? So that's to me. That's positive. And what about the wider community in terms of satellite religious groups. Has there been any kind of No no, although we haven't publicised it widely in the public arena. And that is something that I would like to see the association do. [00:19:30] Like before we're not talking about. We need to educate. We need to educate not only our members, but also the public. So this will be part of that. So how many queries do you get coming into into your office regarding, like conversion therapy? We've had a few a few queries. I was just talking to our ethics secretary Abby before, and she said, We we have had a few queries. Um, we can't talk about specifics in terms of complaints, but definitely some some general inquiries. [00:20:00] Do you think there's been an increase in in terms of inquiries since this policy has been out? I think there's probably been an increase since there's been more wider media and societal attention. We are also getting general inquiries just a lot more general inquiries anyway, So I think people are questioning and looking for, um, is this OK or not? So which is a positive thing, [00:20:30] So people are talking about sexual orientation, talking about gender identity, talking about what does that mean? So that kind of to me, that's a positive that people are are ringing in and asking the general enquiries aren't necessarily from councillors. They can be from public. Does the association itself offer any kind of, um, training or education programmes for counsellors around, uh, rainbow related issues? No. We are going to be employing [00:21:00] a professional development manager who will be organising ongoing professional development for qualified counsellors so that so that will be one of the things that is high on our list to be providing is provisional development for working with Rainbow Community because I imagine it must be quite tricky. Um, if you are not aware of the, um, subtlety of conversion therapy to maybe identify it as a counsellor, Yes, I think so too. [00:21:30] Yes, as as we were talking and thinking about it more in the last in the last few days. That's what I was. I came up with it. It's something if we're not aware of, we can be like you're saying subtly imposing a view that that is not acceptable. Just, uh, finally, uh, we are uh and and this is a wee bit off topic. But we are in the middle of a global pandemic with COVID-19, and we've [00:22:00] gone through level 123, and four. And we're back down to level one here in New Zealand at the moment. And I just wonder, how has COVID-19 impacted your membership? Initially, when we went into lockdown, there was a huge, um, disparity, I guess between, um with our members. So some were really overworked and had had lots of referrals and continued working. But you're using remote online or telephone counselling [00:22:30] options and platforms and others. They were completely dried up there, so that so that was because of privacy or, um, not able to do to provide online or their workplace wasn't able to or to discontinue their they're practising. So in terms of the lockdown, it was quite different all over the all over the country. Um, and we did a a survey during that time in level three just to kind of get a bit of a [00:23:00] picture of what was coming to to, uh, the counsellors, what the public were bringing. And so that was really interesting. And a lot in terms of anxiety, high anxiety, depression, um, relationship difficulties, um, some concerns and financial stress. And, um, for some, there was a high high, um, difficulties in looking after Children and home schooling. So So those are all kind of things that we had expected. [00:23:30] And we also expected coming out of lockdown that there would be an increase in need. And certainly that is what's happening in schools there. After they came back to school, the school counsellors, while while in lockdown the school counsellors were not accessed as much. So young people didn't want to do online counselling. They weren't interested in, um, video calling FaceTime or anything like that. They they used messaging the most. Um, and that could have again been [00:24:00] to do with privacy, not being able to be private at home. Um, and just liking that platform, actually. So that was quite interesting to know that young people prefer face to face with their counsellor rather than online relationship and really important going forward when we think about, um, interventions for young people that we need to think about face to face. And when they got back to school, the school guidance counsellors were slammed, so there's been a huge increase in in more referrals than normal. [00:24:30] And, um, mental health is as we've seen, there's been a lot in terms of funding going into mental health, uh, for counselling, less so. So, uh, we would like to see more funding coming to public to be able to access counsellors as opposed to go to a mental health service. We don't anticipate this is going to go down for a period of for, you know, for a period of time. When we look at the global situation, the impact is going to be ongoing, [00:25:00] particularly with with the stress financially and families and job job losses. And even, just personally, I you know, when I talk to friends, you know, a real, um just covid fatigue. Yeah, yeah, and and the constant reading about when we are exposed constantly to distressing news it it traumatises us. And so we did get desensitised in some ways. But also we forget that our stress we get we get used to the stress levels, [00:25:30] Not we forget it, but we get used to it. So we're used to being a little bit more on edge and tense and, um, and so that that over time is going to impact on our physiological body system. And that's not going to be helpful for for our ongoing health as a population. Um, and the other part that I think has had a huge impact was when we were in the level, um, the three and four where we couldn't hug or touch or be with people. I think that's [00:26:00] had an impact that we don't really know yet. And still, you know, that's that part of, Oh, do I shake hands? Do I hug someone? Um, and then not having that physical touch? And for for a lot of people who were who were living very isolated, where they were on their own, that has had a huge impact for, you know, 6 to 8 to 10 weeks. They didn't have anyone that they could be physically close to. Um, and I have heard of a a lot of elderly people who were living isolated. Their health has deteriorated to the to the, [00:26:30] um, state that they need to go into a a rest home way earlier than what they would have if they hadn't have happened. So So are you giving any, um, specific advice to your membership around covid and how to kind of, um, help some of those issues through the through each level? We put out a R guidelines and, um, recommendations. So the guidelines were about how to work under the different restrictions. So that was under [00:27:00] 3421. And part of that was also about self-care for the counsellors. So where where counsellors are working with people with high distress and need, and there's a lot of referrals coming in, there's often often counsellors will just go, yes, and continue to work even though, really, they need to be taking some time to look after themselves in order to be the best counsellor they can. So So we're really recommending [00:27:30] a lot of self-care a lot of supervisions. We have an expectation that our counsellors have, uh, supervision at least monthly and more regularly if they've got a high workload, um, and ongoing support in terms of information and and I think probably education, ongoing professional development education will be something that we would be looking at doing as well.

IRN: 3371
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rurangi.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004605
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089899
TITLE: Rūrangi
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Craig Gainsborough; Elz Carrad; Max Currie
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2020s; Civic Square / Te Ngākau; Cole Meyers; Craig Gainsborough; Elz Carrad; Max Currie; Oliver Page; Rūrangi (web series/film); deadname; film; film making; media; trans; trans man; transgender
DATE: 2 August 2020
YEAR: 2020
LOCATION: Civic Square / Te Ngākau, Civic Square/Te Ngākau, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So you've just had the Wellington launch of the series. How did that go? It was amazing. It was like sold out full house. We had a great Q and a afterwards ALS cracked the best jokes I've heard yet. I think there's still a little bit more room in that comedy routine. And and my best oldest girlfriend from drove here for three hours and and it was amazing to see her. And we had lots of parents bringing their Children, which was, like, really important. What is the reaction from the audience? [00:00:30] I don't know. It was it was very different from Auckland. Um, I don't know. I mean, it was quite intimate this time, and I think that just changed the vibe. But, um, there's a older sort of audience in there, but yeah, kids as well. Um, I think everyone liked it and everyone stayed for the Q and a so that was a good you know. Good thing. Um yeah. So what is the difference between here and the Auckland audience? Um I think just Auckland is a little bit more rowdy. Auckland was drunk like Auckland. It was at night. There was like a bar beforehand. People had had a few drinks. Champagne, [00:01:00] so Yeah. Yeah, Rowdy. And they way more people, obviously. Um, yeah. What do you reckon, Craig? What was the main difference? I think Wellington cried more. Auckland laughed more. Wellington cried more so we got two different emotional responses. Got the laughter from the, uh, the rowdy bunch in Auckland and the tears from the more intimate crew in Wellington. It was a good audience. I spoke to a couple of audience members just coming out now, And, um, one of them was just [00:01:30] just really choked up and didn't actually have the words to say anything in the Q and a, um, but really wanted to pass on their thanks for for the movie. Ah, that's awesome. I mean, that's a beautiful thing to hear how much we've moved people and I Yeah, I can imagine that the ones the people that have moved the most probably don't want to come up and talk to us. So why was it important to make, uh, well, I mean, opportunities like this don't come around every day for [00:02:00] marginalised communities. Um, I mean, this started, like, four years ago. We're talking and this the story came across, you know, my desk and, um, just kind of realised that it was an incredible opportunity for the community to to, uh, have a voice and and really, authentically represent themselves. I got a real sense that it just seems so authentic. The characters, the setting, uh, the, um So, yeah, I mean, that that came about through, [00:02:30] um, through our collaborator and friend and and part of our team. Cole Myers and Cole is the writer, uh, along with Oliver Page and, um, also co-produced on it. And Cole is an incredible trans activist and really brought with him his personal experiences and and also, I guess what he's always wanted to see on screen, um, [00:03:00] which has always been denied to some extent. So it it was about creating something truly authentic by the trans community for the trans community and others, but just really with a clear focus on authentic representation. Um, and Cole really spearheaded that, um, by bringing his voice to the table. And one of the biggest impacts on authenticity and [00:03:30] the performances is casting transgender people and trans roles. Um, and you know, I think S talks about that in terms of relating to the character. And I certainly see that coming through and some of the more, um, hard hitting, poignant, moving parts of Al's performance. But, um, we hear from gender diverse people. There's lots of little touches like you and I were talking about that line. What does CAS say when he asked him about Oh, just that you know doesn't sing anymore because it feels weird for him, [00:04:00] you know? And that's and that line, Apparently they came from me. Um, yeah, I mean, I. I used to be a and, you know, starting hormone Thera really changed that for me. And, um, it is weird to sing now, Um, so that was kind of my little bit of, you know, added thing in there. Those little touches, you know, come from having a trans person writing the show and having trans actors embodying these characters. And there's always dialogue about how does this feel? Would you say it this way? And you know, we have the opportunity [00:04:30] of of of, you know, all these heads of department who are trans feeding into the show. So that authenticity that you're noticing comes from having gender diverse people and all the creative departments of the show. So how did you relate to cares? Oh, I mean, we're both trends, so that was the main thing. Um and yeah, like I say all the time, that that was like a foundation for me already set. Um, And then on top of that, we we're from, you know, small communities. [00:05:00] We're both Maori. I mean, we we share, we share so many similarities. It's just Yeah, just I don't know. I just get it. You know, it's hard to explain, really. It's just something you get II. I was also really interested in the kind of spaciousness of the production that you're actually giving the characters time to reflect and think about where they are and where they've come from. Um, can you talk about how kind of building that kind of spaciousness into the film? Yeah, so that [00:05:30] spaciousness starts with a script. And Cole and I worked a lot on actually stripping out dialogue and kind of interrogating what's between the lines and then, you know, through rehearsals when the actors are preparing, you know, they're all thinking about what's behind the lines and certainly a stylistic choice as director is, is allowing space. You know, for, um, what's in the inside the characters to play on their faces. And I think that's also an editorial decision as well. [00:06:00] You know, the does have a slower pace in most parts, and, you know, that's because so much of what's important to this drama is what's going on inside the characters. We need space to see that. Yeah, I agree. I think it's really hard to follow a script that's bulked with dialogue. It it just kind of takes away from that authentic feeling or that realness it's you know what I mean? Like, yes, you get to play. Yeah, yeah, Someone asked me like they're like, Oh, you must, like, forget [00:06:30] your lines. And like I said to him, I don't really have that many lines now that I'm thinking about it and he's like, Oh, true, I'm like, Yeah, like I didn't really say much. Yeah, that's a great answer to the question, though, that you don't say much and and yet you convey so much, you know in your face and what's going on for you. What's going on inside? That's Yeah, yeah, that That's one of the big things I took away from it as well is that I think a lot of these characters don't seem that comfortable talking. You know, it's like New Zealanders aren't [00:07:00] good at speaking very in sentences, um, and in the way that you convey emotion and build character, not through dialogue, but through how you how you look, you know, the the mannerisms. I mean, gem, probably of all the characters and bodies that clumsiness the most and and the terms of you know, he stutters and he ums and ah, and kind of swallows some of his words. And that's just, you know, again having a fantastic actor like Arlo Green. It was a quality that he started [00:07:30] experimenting with in the auditions. Um, you know, Cole and I kind of looked at that and then went back to the script and kind of shaped a little bit more so he could bring that into the character. And, you know, I, I just think, you know, it creates such a an affectionate portrayal of a rural man who's kind of cast into this really unusual situation of, you know, being in love um, with someone who has changed and yet remained the same. So Jim and Kaz have [00:08:00] a really multi layered relationship. How did you work with, um, with the other actor on that? Yeah. I mean, me and Max spoke about this earlier, and I think it's because both and I are just super passionate about acting. And, you know, we put a lot of thought into our back stories. I mean, I don't know what was going on, but that's what it was for me, because we, I mean, in a rehearsal we didn't. And Max, that was your decision to kind of keep that separate between us. Um, you know, in a rehearsal, [00:08:30] because that's what happens in the story. We're not We don't, you know, and don't spend a lot of time together. Um, we spent more of rehearsal with, you know, as a trio with with, um but, um, yeah, I don't I don't know. What do you think? Something that I don't think I've ever told you. I don't know If you're aware of it. Was that and I built up an idea of you know who Caz was before he left and a relationship with that person and a lot of memories with that [00:09:00] person. Um And so I think you know, I wanted to make sure that as much as possible when caz kind of reentered Jim's life that there was this, um, both shock and recognition. And just like you said, if I had started rehearsing you two together, um, some of that, um, shyness or awkwardness, you know, we would have lost it would have happened in the rehearsal room instead of on camera. Um, so that was sort of the the idea [00:09:30] there was, You know that seeing each other for the first time and, you know, you played it really well. Like when Jim arrives at the city council and you you see, you know, basically your ex lover, right? And I love the expression in your face and you just get out of there. And I think, you know, if we had started to dig into that too much in rehearsals, that that would have been lost to time and wouldn't have happened in front of the camera. There are a number of scenes that are really highly emotional, and I'm thinking, particularly when, um, [00:10:00] the mayor is confronting you. And I'm wondering, how was it to play that? I mean, it was emotional to watch, but how was it to play it? And I'm guessing you did a number of takes. I mean, that would have been quite stressful. Yeah, Yeah, we did. A lot of takes. Um Ah, I don't For me, that scene wasn't the most emotional for me, like in particular. It was kind of easy, I think. Because Max was like, you know, Caz [00:10:30] has heard these things before. I mean, he's been through it all. So, you know, initially he gets kind of upset, but then he brings himself back down because as an activist, that's what he's done, you know, his whole in the last 10 years. So, um, but, you know, you did some tricky things in there. You got, um, miss, uh, to, you know, to say some things that were off the page to really get in there and hit me, which was that worked? Um, but yeah, we did a heap of takes of it, but yeah, [00:11:00] Yeah, I think. And sort of for, um, it was actually So we're talking about the dead naming. Yeah, that moment. And then, um I don't know, Craig, Do you like I remember coal being, You know, that was a really it was really important to Cole how the production handled that. Yeah. I mean, well, we want to avoid dead naming at all, so that meant stripping it from the script as well. So, uh, it's a dead name. It doesn't exist in the script. Doesn't exist in any previous draughts. [00:11:30] Uh, so through through shooting it It was that same approach. Um, where we were using words like when she's supposed to be saying his name. She's going dead. Name da, da da. And, um and and some other words which which Max through into, um maybe evokes more of a response from, um, from in, you know, in a safe way. Um, but a little bit That might come a little bit shocking. Not expecting it to come from [00:12:00] Renee's mouth. Rene. Sorry, Renee. Leon, um, plays, um, plays and does an amazing job at it. Um, so yeah, and And that kind of thinking was approached throughout the entire production, Really? And and it's just making sure that whatever is on the page, whatever the talent are reading is safe for them. Um, safe for filming, um, with trigger warnings if they exist and and are required. Um, yeah. It was just part of the cop [00:12:30] of the show. Really? Cole is really media savvy. He does a lot of media consultation. And one of his concerns was that if we put things in the show like photos of cares when he was a child or dead named him, then the media, when they did their coverage and reporting on the show, just has a habit on, like, honing in on on these, you know, dead names. You know who someone was before their transition. And it was really important to Cole that, you know, he's seen this done wrong so many times so that when the show was out there, these [00:13:00] things didn't even exist for the media to get their hands on. In fact, there's one photo I think of, you know, on the wall when he was a child and again the same much in the way that we handled the dead naming there was a lot of care around making sure that it was always out of focus and barely seen. Um and, yeah, I'm really pleased with the way that the production embodied the same principles. Um, that were on screen. I mean, we we actually printed that photo [00:13:30] out of focus so it could never have been in focus. Um, which was sneaky way on that one. I was out of focus at the time. I just thought that Johannes was making sure that he had the camera out of focus. But that's even smarter, Craig. So how has the media responded to this production? ALS and I sometimes talk about the curly questions that you get asked. Um, I mean, on the whole, the the the response has been enormously positive and a real palpable sense [00:14:00] of excitement. Um, and you know it. It feels like people are kind of picking up what we're what we're putting down, um, I. I do notice that has kind of been pushed forward. Um, as a as a spokes. You know, the media tends to treat him as, like a spokesperson for all transgender concerns and issues. And maybe you want to speak a lot. I don't know. Has that been your experience? Yeah, definitely. I mean, yeah. I mean, it's it's inevitable. Kind of, um, [00:14:30] you know, And like, just as I said in Q and a I mean, I'm not representing anyone else but myself and and, like, I just I just want people to know that we're all so different. I mean, every human being is different. We just We come from different backgrounds. We have different parents. Some don't have parents, you know, there's so many different things. Um and yeah, um, those curly questions like so for me, I mean, I'm really open to those questions. It's an opportunity for me to teach or, you know, [00:15:00] but But, you know, that's That's not to say that you can just go ahead and ask people those questions. You kind of got, You got to You got to feel what the vibe is between you and that person. And, you know, take care around that, um there's still people out there who are really fascinated by the transitions of transgender people and and look, in all honesty, it It's fascinating to me, but we don't need to continue. You know what I mean? It's it's You have to continue talking about it. I mean, let's let's look at all the things that we are outside of being, you know, outside of transitions. [00:15:30] Let's look at what we do for jobs. And you know, the cool people we have in our lives and the people we fall in love with. And I mean, there's so much more to us. I mean, we we're talented, you know? So, yeah, I think, yeah, but it's we'll get there. When? When. You know, over the last couple of weeks, we've done a lot of media, and when you actually line them up back to back, you know, we've made this the show, these stories, these characters, you know, which, like, I is about, um, you know, a son returning home to reunite with his father with his difficult relationship. Um, [00:16:00] you know, this debate in rural New Zealand over phosphates? Um, you know, colonialism and the character sort of coming to terms with, you know, um, their Maori heritage and wanting to speak to Maori. Um, you know, that's what's in the show. And yet we have noticed when you kind of back to back the media, there's this this, like, this real focus on, um, you know, the transitioning and you know transgender lens, and you know, that is obviously part of the show. But it's been interesting for me to notice, like how much that tends to dominate [00:16:30] the kind of line of questioning from the media. Yeah. No, it's Yeah, I agree. Just looking on the the website for the production, it seems more than just a movie. You've got internships. You've got a, uh, a whole page around gender diversity within cast and crew. And you've also got what you will improve upon if you get funding for a second series. Can you talk to me about some of those things? I think what's been really important from us from the start and and actually, this is why we named [00:17:00] our production company when they formed it, Um, or a mouse, the knee on the end, like a little mouse. Um, but the idea is that we wanted to build up the, uh, community's autonomy in their storytelling. We wanted them to be able to tell their own stories, and that's ultimately the goal. So, as part of that, um, we ran an internship programme which was supported by the New Zealand Film Commission for six, gender diverse interns through the production in in all the creative roles. So we had, uh, interns [00:17:30] in directing, producing, uh, wardrobe makeup, um, editing camera and art. So across the board and trying to provide experience and get training, you know, with with with top people from the industry. I mean, that was that was part of it, you know, And and so it's It's about creating the future generation of trans filmmakers who will be able to tell their stories themselves. Um, [00:18:00] which is where we ultimately want to get to, um, and that, you know, that's spread across all the way into cast as well. You know, phenomenal number of cast, um, with gender diverse. Um, so yeah, hopefully, yeah, Hopefully we'll get to season two. And and, uh so, uh, some of the trans people we had working on this show or the gender diverse people working on on season one will be in in much higher positions, and it'll just keep going from there. That's that's ultimately where we want to get to. [00:18:30] We were talking earlier about some of the emotional high points in the series, and I mentioned the one about you and the mayor But that wasn't the one for you, which was the highest kind of emotional point for you. Oh, that's a good question. Um, I, I think it was Oh, this is actually this heaps. But the one that I just comes to mind is when Caz sees his best friend for the first time, Like I think, [00:19:00] I just think it comes down to the depth of their relationship like friendship. I mean, they just there's so much love for each other. And I think you know, he's wanting acceptance from his father as well. But I just felt like Caz really wanted his best friend back. And I just think, I think, is his safe place. Basically, I think I don't know what that's about Got me thinking now, but yeah, I think that was really emotional for me. Um, yeah, that's an example of that. We've got [00:19:30] You hardly have any lines, right? And yet we see you kind of, like run the length of the Amazon. You know, in that in that moment, what's going on there, like this joy being you reunited. There's all this like sadness And like the 10 years that you've lost and Yeah, that's my favourite favourite scene, too. Yeah, Yeah. Craig, What? What about you? Like what? Is there a scene that you get emotional? We've never had this conversation like, Is there a moment or a scene that gets you? I mean, the end always gets me. It always gets shivers at the end, right [00:20:00] down the spine. Like like I've seen it. How many times now? 10, 20 times, at least. Still, there's always shivers down the spine. In that last scene, there were a number of other pieces of dialogue that really stuck out to me. One was when I think, um asks, uh, who benefits from our shame. Who do you think does benefit from our shame? I mean, I think in general, like the people that benefit from shame, are those who are in control [00:20:30] of what's perceived as normal. You know, the the people that most benefit from maintaining inequality. Um, you know, shame keeps people down. Shame keeps people quiet. You know, shame keeps people away from, like, their power. And, um so, yeah, the the people that benefit from shame. And I think this is what Cole is wanting us to think about um, are oppressors. Another piece of dialogue that really jumped out to me was when [00:21:00] your father says, um, why did you fucking come back? Why did you come back? Yeah, like again? We were talking about this before Max and I, um I think we put it down to sometimes. I mean, as humans, we we Sometimes we when we've got so much going on in our minds and in our hearts, we make these decisions to do these decisions that we wouldn't normally make. But we don't really know why we're doing it. And I think I think for it was just that. Home [00:21:30] is a place of healing. And I have that for myself. It's just when the time when when home calls, it's time to go. And you don't really? You don't always know why, but, um, it's just a special place. Um, you know, So, yeah, I don't know. There's so many so many layers to that for What do you What do you reckon? I think you nailed it when you sit at home as a place of healing and, you know, I know that you go home to sometimes and and come back feeling like you have perspective and that you sort of understand something [00:22:00] that maybe you didn't understand when you were heading there, and you put it perfectly. I mean, we often say that in a word is about healing and, yeah, you couldn't have put it better. And I think you just Yeah, for me, it's a matter it's about taking yourself away from the environment that you're normally in that environment is confusing for you. So you're getting out of that and, you know, having a new new surroundings where you can self reflect and figure stuff out. Um, yeah, that's a [00:22:30] home thing for me, that watching the series, um, just seems to me a wonderful world of possibility and opportunity. It's it feels like a real just an opening of starting Where is going after this? Well, we have big things on the horizon for, and, uh, you'll be hearing about them soon. Ultimately, though, we we would love to make a second season. You know, we we've been [00:23:00] story lining and planning with coal and and, um, thinking about where that can go and and And that world, as you rightly point out, is so beautifully set up. We have all these wonderful, uh, little narratives going on and little journeys of our characters, Uh, and and and characters that you know will hopefully join them on that journey. Um, so we've kind of set the foundations. Now we want to show the world. And just [00:23:30] finally, what has the most touching comment been to you about the series So far recently, there's been a number of parents that have gotten in contact. And I've I've been I've become more aware of, you know, the I think the enormous hope and joy and pride and fear that can come with being the parent of, um, a gender diverse child. And this so, you know, [00:24:00] since our word pre premier, it's only been a couple of days ago, but yeah, parents have been like beating a path to our door. Um, you know, just to connect and often to find out. You know, um, whether it's appropriate for an eight year old or a 13 year old. And I think just in those conversations there's been some really beautiful comments, especially coming out. I mean, uh, I think you know one parent who is here in particular was, you know, I could see was was crying. Um and [00:24:30] yeah. So in some ways, the most touching comments has been no words at all. Oh, II, I don't know. I I've just been getting all different comments, and that's been pretty cool. I mean, I said in the beginning, I want people to take what they need from it, personal to them, and it's been that's how it's been. So it's just it's been a good um, I've learned from other people based on their reactions, like [00:25:00] everyone's just got a different reaction, something new to say. And I think that's really cool and it's all important and I don't know, it's I don't know. I just remember there was a There was a review that came out in the Pan Punch, and, um, when I read it, I just sat in my car and cried and cried and cried. Um, because it was from someone who is gender diverse and Maori. And you know, in some ways, the elephant in the room for the show is that, you know, as a director, [00:25:30] I'm cisgender. I'm not Trans, um, and so it's been a real, um, it's really been on my mind, and I guess it's been a big fear for me in terms of just wanting to make sure that in terms of Cole's voice and the the community of people, um surrounding the that they recognise themselves and these characters and these stories, Um, and it's always I've always been battling of, You know, whether I can tell the story or you do it justice in a way. [00:26:00] And when I read that review, yeah, the floodgates open. And I was crying because, um, the reviewer had seen themselves so deeply and profoundly in the as a Maori gender diverse person. And that was actually an enormous relief to me. And from that day on, you know, I felt, um, I could sort of walk a little taller when it came time to promote and talk about Yeah, yeah.

IRN: 3366
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089898
TITLE: Part 2 - LGBTTQIAP+ Political Forum
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ayesha Verrall; Jan Logie; Jessica Hammond; Nicola Willis; Troy Mihaka; Vivian Lyngdoh
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Ayesha Verrall; Eva Beva; General election; Jan Logie; Jessica Hammond; Nicola Willis; Troy Mihaka; Vivian Lyngdoh
DATE: 26 July 2020
YEAR: 2020
LOCATION: Eva Beva, 31-35 Dixon Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the LGBTTQIAP+ Political Forum held at Eva Beva, Wellington on 26 July 2020. The event has been split into two parts. Part 1 can be found here.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: In regards to conversion therapy. Will your party make banning conversion therapy a government bill? Not just a member's bill? If not, why not? Yes, I want to see gay conversion therapy banned. It's disgusting. Jam made a good point. This homophobia stuff. It's some white people bullshit. This didn't exist until the church showed up and taught us. Which is really [00:00:30] fitting when we're talking about gay conversion therapy. Because last year Max Tweedy, member of the Green Party Auckland Pride he ran a petition. That was the first time in my life I've ever seen a petition backed by the youth wings of blue, red and green. And I thought, Yes, this is gonna go through And then it didn't because according to the prime Minister, it's a religious free. It infringes upon religious freedom, and I'm not certain how I went to a Catholic high school. I do not remember the part of the Bible that said, Love [00:01:00] thy neighbour. Unless they don't behave the way you want them to, then strap them to a chair and physically torture them until they do. I don't remember that bit. So yes, gay conversion therapy banned so gay conversion therapy is abhorrent. And, um uh, Labour has a member's bill, Uh, that we're very keen to make a government government bill. If we're elected as as a labour government, we would [00:01:30] support the bill. Uh, we would pass the bill to ban conversion therapy. Thank you. Uh, well, gay conversion therapy is, as you say, an abhorrent practise. The idea that we would take a young person and tell them that their sexual identity is wrong and that it has to change is just compellingly awful. Uh, our caucus doesn't have a position on it. Earlier this year, um, I was under the impression [00:02:00] that the Prime minister had rejected the member's bill and Maya Libi's name becoming a government bill. But, um, I stand to be corrected, Um, in terms of that, members Bill, I personally have, uh, examined it, and I would support it. I do know that there are people who make arguments on whether or not there would be free speech issues and whether there would be other issues. And the best way to flush that out is to take the bill to a select committee because I think we should all have an intent that gay conversion therapy should not take place in New Zealand. [00:02:30] And if that means progressing the member's bill to get to a select committee so we can get the detail of the law right, then let's do that. Yes, it's one of the policies in our policy document. And just to say for us, it's around conversion therapy, so around sexual orientation and gender identity, because it's not just around, it's not happening just around, um, sexual orientation, because we know that this isn't, um [00:03:00] and I'm a little reluctant, and I know I've been given the language to use, and I can't remember what it was. But we shouldn't even be calling it therapy because that gives it a sense of legitimacy. That is not real. It is torture, and it should be banned. Yeah, III, I agree. It's it's, um, abhorrent. It's it's effective. It's not therapy. It's not effective. And even if it were, it's disgusting. So, um, let's, um, get rid of it. I'm sure that there are some nuances [00:03:30] that have to be worked through so that you know, people can pray in the privacy of their own home and whatever, but it's it's not therapy. And it has to, um, stop. What will your party do to make schools safer for Rainbow? You young people? Right, As I just said, I went to a Catholic high school and I did kind of make it seem really bad. My Catholic high school was quite supportive despite the story. I told you earlier about not being allowed [00:04:00] to take a same sex partner to the dance. Um, they made me who I was, so I shouldn't criticise them too much. But bullying is a very, very real thing. Integrity in New Zealand do not yet have a high school education policy that's much further down the track for us. At the moment we're focused on that mental health policy. And as I said before, our mental health policy is about des stigmatising mental health in New Zealand, making sure that preventative care, like counselling, is freely available so that when you are a high [00:04:30] school student, the thought going to get help to talk to someone becomes normal, just something that every New Zealander does. Bullying in New Zealand is still a large problem, and we still have the highest rate of teen suicide in the OECD. So for us, it's about being able to provide that assistance for mental health to deal with the way the country is now. Thank you, Troy. I also came out at high school, and I can, [00:05:00] um, just say that it is so important that all Children feel that they can be who they want to be, uh, and feel safe when they are meant to be learning that is the purpose of school. It is not to enforce norms of sexuality on on anyone. Um, and, uh, I think, um, one of the pro, um, initiatives of the labour government I just like to underline is a piece of work led by Grant Robertson who, um called the Rainbow Well-being [00:05:30] Legacy Fund, which is a fund that's, uh, received some money from the government, but also donations from men, many of whom had their convictions for, um as Nicola mentioned, um uh, convictions for homosexual activity that used to be illegal, expunged and then wanted to give something. I mean, it's amazing generosity, right? Be criminalised by the state and then think, Oh, what can I give back that they have and donated to this? Um, this fund. And so the fund is [00:06:00] for, um, promoting, uh, particularly well-being projects for young people. Many community run and focused on people of school age. So that's one area where our local MP grant has led a great deal. Uh, on this issue, I just want to mention Nikki Kay, um who is a national party MP who Who is retiring, but who was the minister of education? Uh, for a few months in the last national [00:06:30] lead government and one of the initiatives, uh, she took off straight away in her short time in that role was to ensure that there was funding available for Rainbow Youth and inside out. And the reason that she did that because she had been, uh, speaking with parents and communities all over the country who had identified that it was still very difficult for young people to get assistance and support from within the rainbow community and the Rainbow community had reflected back that they wished to give that support. But there was [00:07:00] a real resourcing issue. So I just want to acknowledge that. And I want to say that that's the kind of work that I support because yes, every school should provide an inclusive environment. Every board already has a responsibility for ensuring their school is free of bullying and that Children are able to express their identity and students are able to express their identity. Every school should have in place good mental health support and good health services and good referrals. But we all know that sometimes it falls short. And when it [00:07:30] does fall short I I want to know that there are other organisations in our community that are empowered to provide specific tailored support to young people in the rainbow community. Uh, and I think supporting organisations like Inside Out and Rainbow Youth is a good way to go. Um, So, as I said before, I think you know, one thing that we can do that can be really helpful is stop this kind of weird practise of forcing little Children to be in one of two categories. And and that is all, um, a thing happened [00:08:00] recently, unfortunately to my 11 year old who's at at intermediate school, where she was, um, called a homophobic slur and she came home pretty upset about it, and I contacted the school and was like guys guys. And they said, Well, we're gonna cover, um, inclusion in term four. And I was like, OK, so we're gonna wait until the Children are 12 to teach them not to be raging assholes. That feels a little late [00:08:30] to me. Um, but what they have done is my daughter and her friends have started a spectrum club, as in the rainbow spectrum, and the school is supporting them with that. So they are gonna make, um, make posters and hold events. So I What I would like to see is that that, um, you know, that kind of education comes way way younger 12 is just far, far too late to stop people treating each other like this. [00:09:00] Yeah, we We've still got a lot of work to do on this, right? The, um, greens a couple of terms ago, did a review of the school's policies, um, and, um, and then went and kind of tried to check how they were. And And the outcome of that work was really Grimm. Lots of schools who, um, said they didn't have any [00:09:30] queer students. Yep. A lot of this, uh, you know, which is the starting point? Still for many of our schools is because they don't know what they don't know. And we have to make sure that the resources there, from the resource for our community organisations um to be working in tools to help them go through that whole transformation about looking at their policies, their toilets, [00:10:00] their curriculums, their sexuality, relationship, education and their anti-bullying practise as well as policy. Um and that needs, I think, ideally would be helped if that was supported, um, by a team within government to be able to help that expertise in the Ministry of Education as well as at a local level through our organisations, um and that we really need to back that up, where [00:10:30] it's that leadership is owned by the school leaders and the work is done with the boards of trustees and the parents to take them on that journey of understanding. Um and we know that actually, a lot of people still don't know that they know anyone who's trans and so there's a lot of work to be done for helping parents in particular as well as school teachers and leaders to understand these issues, to be able to step [00:11:00] into their leadership. There's so much more we could do and I think the results would be really exciting. I deserve um everyone round applause again for 10 minutes. Rao for hosting us for hosting a queer friendly space. Um so the next question is the 2020 budget has seen a significant cut for the Rainbow communities. [00:11:30] What actions we need to take on to ensure that this does not happen again. And how will your party improve funding and support for rainbow organisations around the country who are stretched for capacity and primarily volunteer led? It's disappointing to hear that when we actually have a gay finance minister as well. Rainbow organisations need support and they need help as much as every other community organisation you may have noticed they tend to get quite angry about queer rights. Some of you know that [00:12:00] more than others. Can you imagine me in parliament? When that gets comes through and they go, here's the budget. This is what the budget's gonna be. We're gonna give this amount of pride to Auckland. Can you imagine me being hm? That's decreased. I'm not exactly gonna stand there and take it quietly. So you put me in parliament. You've got me standing there yelling and making a lot of noise about it. That's what I'm going to do to make sure it doesn't happen again. Yeah, it was, um I did seek clarification from about [00:12:30] about this because I'm surprised to hear that there is a cat and II. I think it would be, um, be good to get more specification about what's precisely meant because, uh, there was funding introduced over four years in the last budget for, um, for rain communities. And so that's intended to be ongoing. I think the other thing I would point to is grants for Rainbow communities are often in the scheme of the government's budget, quite small. And the place that I'm most interested in us leveraging our power is to make sure [00:13:00] that all of the, uh, various ministries votes are working for us and in particular in health and education and in housing. And I think that's an important priority. So that relates to some of my work on the district health board where, um uh. So, for example, the district Health Board gives hundreds of millions of, um contracts to um or organisations and the community. And so um, simply by making well, not simply, it's a remarkable how seldom it's done. But [00:13:30] by making sure that, say, the grants that are going to community organisations to promote Pacific health, for example to make sure that they are inclusive of the rainbow community can have a a very big impact as well. And I'm eager to see that sort of work continue. Thank you. Unusual and possibly dangerously. Um, I'm going to admit that I, too, wasn't aware that there had been specific cuts in funding to the rainbow uh, community. [00:14:00] Um, but look on a first principles basis. Um, National fundamentally believes in community run initiatives and in, uh, initiatives being run by non-government organisations. We don't think that government initiative is the solution to every problem. We think that sometimes, uh, some issues are best dealt with by those on the ground with the strongest connections and relationships with the people who they are seeking to support and assist. So we [00:14:30] have a record across successive governments of empowering and enabling non-government organisations rather than simply just growing government departments to do the work. I also just want to say that we take This debate is taking place in the context of a global pandemic with a massive economic downturn that is happening around the world. And each of us need to be conscious going into this election that the things that we fundamentally believe in in terms of increasing funding for health, [00:15:00] increasing funding for education, ensuring this is an economy where people have jobs and can afford a house actually depends on us managing this economy. Well, the national has a strong track record out of the global financial crisis of continuing to do that. We did that well, then and I will stand proudly, uh, on that record that we increased government spending following the last global downturn. And we've committed that we would do that again. Uh, so I make that point because it's going to be important in this election campaign. [00:15:30] I would I would hazard to say that with $31 billion going into infrastructure projects for which there aren't even business cases, that we could probably spare a little bit for rainbow communities, uh, for you know, from which the community gets excellent value for money. Grassroots organisations give incredible value for money for New Zealand and for the government. Um so the first thing we would do at top is, as [00:16:00] I've said, give every person $250 as a week as a universal basic income, no questions asked Now that acknowledges the unpaid work of the people working in all of these organisations. If you want to reduce your working hours, if you're able to not work, no one's gonna be requiring you to, uh, show up to MS D to show how you're, um, trying to trying to get off your benefit. You're entitled to that $250. And if you can use that to support your community, then that is incredible. [00:16:30] And we would love to see that, Um, in addition to the the money that we could be spending a little bit a little bit, um, better, I'd say I'm so I'm so sorry that New Zealand first isn't here because $70 million for race horses. Um, again, I don't think this is a shortage of money. Problem. Um, so just so. My understanding is that last budget, possibly [00:17:00] possibly for the first time, he'd ever had visible budget lines for funding for LGBT Q i initiatives and that the cut is about the fact that there weren't any new initiatives in this budget for our communities. So the initiatives in the last budget, I think, um, included the Rainbow Legacy Fund. Um, that Doctor Veres mentioned um which is providing [00:17:30] small amounts of funding for our community organisations. But it's not a it's not mean as a mechanism for funding our organisations. It's actually just a way of acknow alleging the harm that was done to our communities when gay men were criminalised and paying it forward to the next community. And it's kind of an absence of reparations to those men they've chosen to pay it forward to in this way for the next generation, which [00:18:00] is a beautiful act of generosity on behalf of those men. And Grant, I will acknowledge this late, um, been critical in achieving that and and it was also around, um there being the gender affirming health care and that's as we you all know, possibly too well and we know in a frustrating level we haven't managed to get that money spent yet into surgeries and in government. You can't get more money when you haven't spent the money that you've got, it's like, yeah, [00:18:30] And then it was also for, um the in my portfolio area around addressing family and sexual violence was specific funding for prevention projects within LGBT QI a communities because we know, um, that we have very high levels of family violence and sexual violence within our community, and there has been zero acknowledgement of that in the past. And in fact, there's been all of the incentive for us [00:19:00] because of homophobia and transphobia to hide that, to be able to protect ourselves in the world. So I'm really proud to have got that money. But it's a journey to be able to get the public service resourced and working with our communities to deliver on it, which is one of the reasons, like from my experience of this of wanting to get an agency to help drive that work, to be able to get the next level of funding [00:19:30] quicker because we know we need it. And I also think that there is more funding going out through MS D that's not visible in the budget lines. I think Auckland Outline has been funded by government for the first time in the covid response, and I think that's really encouraging. It's just we don't have visibility of it. And and I think if we can get the agencies making sure they recognise we're there and responding the putting the funding [00:20:00] to us, that's good. But it's not secure. Um, communities are disproportionately affected by sexual and intimate partner violence. How will your party address the need for this? Specifically, the sexual and domestic violence are Think something in two different parts of my community is the community is overrepresented. So, too, is the Maori community. [00:20:30] So it's something that I've had a lot of time to reflect on and to think about. Our mental health policy goes quite far towards trying to destigmatize the seeking of help for mental health. One of the things about domestic violence is that when you're in that situation, there is the desire to normalise it, to rationalise it, to say things like it's my fault. They are angry because I did this or to just accept that you shouldn't have done it and somehow blame [00:21:00] yourself. One of the hardest and most difficult things about domestic help, uh, domestic violence is is finding help and finding people to talk to about it, to actually have those conversations and to accept No, this isn't normal. I don't deserve this. Which is why that mental health policy des stigmatising finding help is something that we want to get through as soon as we can. Yeah, [00:21:30] I totally agree with what's just been said, but I also want to acknowledge in talking about the, um, talking about sexual and domestic violence. Just the amazing work that Jen has done on this issue. Um, I think Jen was working in this space outside of Parliament when I met her 20 years ago, and continues to be an important, uh, amazing advocate on these on these issues and collaborating with the Greens. Labour has supported a number [00:22:00] of initiatives which I'm gonna try and list. And then Jen can correct me because she's she's been, uh, uh closely involved in all of them. So in our first, um, budget of this government, there was funding frontline, uh, services. And so that was 2018 and 2019. Increased, um, increased that and further emphasis on specific campaigns to, uh, prevent, uh, violence. There's been legislative change that prevents, um, the, uh, re traumatization of, uh, victims by questioning about their sexual [00:22:30] history. That is a bill that labour has, uh, supported. And, um, also, as I mentioned earlier efforts to make, um, uh, engagement with police are easier through the, um, uh uh, presence of diversity, Um, liaison officers who should be making sure that police forces in every region are, um, accessible to to queer people. So an important area of work and absolutely important one for our community. Thank you. [00:23:00] Uh, this is an area of work that, uh, both Amy Adams and an Tolley. Previous National Party ministers, uh, did a lot of work on because, uh, they recognised that New Zealand has a very poor record in terms of the rates of victimisation, both in terms of domestic violence and sexual violence. One of the initiatives that, uh, they took on, and I believe Jan that you've continued to build on was around cross agency response work. So acknowledging that often [00:23:30] people who are victims of these crimes or who are affected by this kind of violence, um, have contact with numerous government agencies AC, C, the police MESD many other agencies. And yet no one agency will sometimes pick up on the whole some of their problems and help them with the additional support that they need. So they had a, uh, a cross agency initiative that was really successful and that I believe this government has continued to build on. And I know that that kind of work is really important because we shouldn't [00:24:00] treat people like silos. People who have an issue in the health system most likely are also having, uh, an issue somewhere else. And these kinds of issues might pop up in the health system. They might pop up as a housing need. They may pop up, uh, in the police system, and we need to make sure our government agencies look at the whole problem and not just a slice of it. They, uh, was with the women's refuge on Friday, helping collect, um, money from the public who are incredibly generous. And they said to me that here in Wellington, part of why they feel they're [00:24:30] able to do really good work is because the police that they work with are so incredibly responsive and interactive, and I want to see that kind of relationship across the country, where those working to support victims of violence, both sexual and physical, are really well supported in positive partnerships with the police and other government agencies. One of the huge contributors to domestic and sexual violence is, um, mental, ill health and and and a lot of that [00:25:00] comes from stress, particularly housing, stress and financial stress. As I said, and I say over and over again, housing is the major cause of poverty and equality and stress in New Zealand. Uh, another problem that we have in New Zealand is under our current, um, benefit system. Once you've been basically having sex with somebody for six weeks, you're tied to them financially and that allows, um, financial abuse. You what you get depends on what your partner gets [00:25:30] so universal. Basic income is for an individual, so you can leave, and you can leave with your for money. You don't have to consult. You can get away, um, safely so reducing that that stress from poverty, supporting people as individuals and properly fund that funding the organisations that support people in these situations is incredibly important to us. Um, just I know [00:26:00] that um, poverty is a driver of some forms of family violence, but I just really want to challenge that. It's the key driver because actually, domestic violence and sexual violence exist in super wealthy families. It is not a product of poverty. Um, and so in response to this question is like, I'm it's gonna be a challenge for me because I can talk for days on this. It's [00:26:30] like this is an entrenched form of harm in our society that we have to fundamentally reshape the way that we work to be able to end it. And I Absolutely the first step is believing you can end it to the point where it's an aberration rather than the norm, which is what many of us experience at the moment. And I believe that and this government has committed to that work. It is not a side issue for us. This government [00:27:00] has made it a priority and has created a position for the first time with a sole focus on that work. Um, in terms of making sure that it's accessible for us, I will say that in my role. So the reason for the funding for the prevention work was to establish the relationships between the public service and our community organisations to help upskill the public service around this and to start creating the [00:27:30] pathways for people to be able to disclose and get help. Because for a long time we've been relying on a mainstream response to family and sexual violence and assuming it's going to work for everybody despite people's experience of discrimination in the system, that is a significant barrier for a lot of people reaching out for help despite an internalised homophobia or a transphobia that people experience. We've pretended that that's not [00:28:00] a reality and just experience. Expect people just to come forward and tell somebody in the normal way that anybody else wouldn't expect that to work for them. And it doesn't and we have to create pathways and connect in to where people are telling people and put the resource around that for people to be able to get the help. And that is what we are currently doing work on building and there is some really exciting stuff happening. So also includes, [00:28:30] uh, accommodation, Um, because we know that actually women's refuges that's accessible to women, that's trans women but identifying there will be a barrier for many Trans women wanting to go into Oh, there's so much to say as well. Thank you so much for that. It's just, um we've come to the last question for the evening. Um, but all of you, um, that will open [00:29:00] up the floor to questions as well. And obviously the candidates will be here. Um um after the forum as well. The last question is, will your party make banning non life preserving surgery on BS C slash intersex individual specifically underage minors a government priority resulting in legislative change? If not, why not? And also support the development of training models and ongoing lectures series for all medical and health professionals across [00:29:30] try. So this is where I get really confused you've got. About 10 years ago, there was a TV show called Nip Tuck. If anyone remembers that, I mean, this is not a good example, but but nip up. And they covered a topic known as genital mutilation. The idea was that all the the what had happened was the character had been raised in an under POed country where she had had part [00:30:00] of her genitalia forcibly removed as a child because that's the religious practise that existed there. And we in the Western world term that genital mutilation and call it a crime against humanity. But in New Zealand, when we do it in a surgery to a child who has just been born for some reason, we call it genital normalisation, as if intersex people, when they're born slightly different, are somehow unusual or unnatural. I always find [00:30:30] this incredibly bizarre because intersex to me, is the black and white evidence that gender is not binary, that people are born in a different way, and it's clear and plain cut. You can see this. I do not understand why this has not been adopted. Additionally, it is also covered by the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, which New Zealand is a signatory to. So it should be added to our Bill of Rights, and this [00:31:00] nonlife threatening surgery should be banned. Thank you. Yeah. So, um, intersex is natural. It is part of nature, and therefore it is not a disease and surgery, for it is not a conventional form of surgery to treat an illness, is it? So I don't believe my personal view is that it is not, uh, not the right thing to do. And I think, um, uh, the [00:31:30] one of the things that, um um in the round table report into, um intersex is the importance of establishing a clinical network to look at this issue. Um, which, uh, has been done over the last two years, the Ministry of Health has been funded to, um, set up how an intersex clinical network would work. And I want to, um, answer why? I think, uh, that is an important way, way forward, and not just to focus [00:32:00] on the, um, banning of surgery, which, as I've said I am against. But I think as a, um there are some complications about it. So the first point about, um, the surgery is that surgery, um, intersects. People need surgery for other reasons, just like anyone else might on their genitals. And so I, um, not always. But sometimes, for example, if they have a condition, uh, that might make a baby who's insect more at risk of getting [00:32:30] urinary tract infections, where all surgeons, all Children with that condition, would need treatment on it. There's also a condition called hyper, which, um, Children can be born with including intersex, um, including some intersex Children. And they might need a surgery to prevent cancer. So I think that makes it very difficult to have, um, to have a a clear view, um, about how the law would decide that. But as I've said, it is my view, and I think the view of many professionals who work in the area, [00:33:00] um, as surgeons that this is not appropriate surgery. So the clinical network plan is about getting that idea of what is good and acceptable practise disseminated across our health system. So it doesn't just mean that, um say in, uh centres where there is access to good specialists who are up on latest practise, that that is known, that wherever you're born, you should be able to be treated treated appropriately, and that means not having surgery. [00:33:30] The second thing that's important here is good care for intersex people isn't just about not having surgery. A person who's born into sex might require support for them and their families throughout their growing up and adolescence. And so good care isn't just about something we fix with a bill. It's about having standards appropriate. Practise a professional community that's educated and present all across the country. It actually goes to quite a, um, important issue in our health [00:34:00] system, which is that we don't achieve consistent standards of practise in one DH B to the next. Right. So you might if you're born in Auckland or Wellington and you're an intersex baby, you might have access to a, um, to a specialist who is up on these issues, but you might not somewhere else. And so some I'm finishing some of the reforms that the Simpson report is trying to do is to allow these collaborations to occur across the health system and make it least fragmented. [00:34:30] And that is so important for rare conditions affecting small groups of people, essentially minorities. Well, I just want to acknowledge we have the expert speaking on that one. so I don't have too much more to to offer except to say that there is evidence that some people's lives have been inextricably harmed by this practise. It's made it very difficult for them growing up. Uh, it's created difficulties in their relationships with their parents [00:35:00] and, of course, that's entirely regrettable, and we don't want that to happen. Um, I believe that every parent presented with their new baby loves that baby absolutely, and wants the absolute best for them. So it's really important that the medical experts they're working with are actually guided by best practise. And so, to that point, um, I I bow to what Aisha is saying about the need for clinical leadership in this area to make sure that any intervention is actually evidence based and is it [00:35:30] occurs with respect for the child and their health and isn't brought about because of some wrongheaded idea of putting people into one box or another. Um, just briefly, it is absolutely core to everything we do at top that we, um, listen to the experts. And in this case, uh, we would be talking about medical experts and also the people with the lived experience of being intersex, and we would just do what that expertise says, and it [00:36:00] sounds pretty pretty clear what that is, and I'm certain we would support that. And the greens have been involved just a little bit in terms of the work that's been happening in the conversations and the facilitated conversation between the health professionals and the intersex community and the Human Rights Commission. Um, and we would support the legislation. Um, and the reason for that is that, of course, [00:36:30] it has to be designed in a way that doesn't prevent life saving, medical intervention or medical intervention to, um, prevent significant health problems. And that's the recommendation of the Human Rights Commission that we have legislation that stops non-essential surgical interventions on intersex babies. And they are recommending that after years of [00:37:00] those discussions and having sat in on some of those discussions, and they were admittedly mostly early on some of the gap between some of the health professionals and the intersex community, even around definitions of what is intersex, the gaps were wide. And for the Green Party, our starting point is the experience of those who live with the consequences. [00:37:30] Medical expertise is critical, but it can't always lead the way because that is what has led to non necessary medical intervention and the point around the training and getting that in. Because it's right, legislation by itself would not be enough. It's always got to be backed up by the cultural change and the training and the resources. And the question was, would we support government rolling that out? There's a bit of an issue in terms of [00:38:00] the independence of our tertiary institutions. Um, it is really important that government does not tell our tertiary institutions what to do, But we can absolutely be engaging around guidelines and ensuring that there are resources and putting more behind and political resource behind those conversations and ensuring that the resource is there. Because, um, you know what? Some of what has happened in the past and is still happening is horrific, [00:38:30] and it needs to end. Thank you very much. Um, the floor, Two questions. We've got 15 minutes. Should we start with, uh, So what is your party doing to support Rainbow Youth? And, like, who are in your youth wings? We're giving them lots of opportunities to put up hoardings and deliver flyers. [00:39:00] Um, but seriously, I think one really important thing all political youth wings are confronting is how we make sure that people's what is often their first experience in politics is a positive experience with their contribution is respected and occurs in safe spaces. And we have um, initiated a policy to make sure that all our social, uh, events are safe. And they, um uh, and alcohol is not present at youth events and that [00:39:30] there are harassment contacts at, uh at, um, party events as well. So that's, um, uh, that's where we're starting from. Well, actually, our youth wing, the young Nets, is what gives me absolute confidence that a future national Party caucus will have more representation from the rainbow community. Because looking at our young supporters coming through, there is a lot of diversity amongst our young nets. Um, in fact, uh, not the current, uh, president. [00:40:00] But our two previous, uh, leaders of the young Nets were members of the rainbow community. Uh, and and I think it falls to us as it does with every organisation, to make sure that we provide inclusive opportunities for people to be involved and contribute, and that we listen to those challenging voices. And as one of you mentioned earlier tonight, I think you Troy, um, our youth wing does actually advocate for things. So, um, the young Nats came out very strongly in support of Maya [00:40:30] Lubis Bill to ban gay conversion therapy Uh, and we enable our youth wing to do that. They should have a voice on the issues that matter to them. Uh, and they should be a voice for activism and influence on our party. So integrity New Zealand is in a unique position out of all of these parties because we don't actually have a youth wing. We're too new for that. So when we get really awesome young people who understand politics and want to learn more about it, we just put them on our campaign teams so that they can learn directly. [00:41:00] Thank you, Sophie, for the question. So I what we're doing about Rainbow Division, though I have a campaign team of six running my campaign for including myself and of them, we have one token straight person, and that's it. Oh, no, I don't look so good. I was about to Skype that, you know, we've got four queers in our top [00:41:30] 10, and we've got nine rainbow candidates, and only two of us aren't young. Um, so pretty smug. Thanks. Um, but I think, really, And the one of the co convenor of the, um, young greens is and it's like that is a space within our party that is just so down with diversity on every kind of level. And they are really [00:42:00] one of the main things is kind of how to create inclusion and, uh, one of the kind of the models in the party as well as fierce campaigners and activists. So, um, usually we just kind of roll with the energy of it and try and and jump on board. Yeah, just briefly. We We're a grassroots party, and but basically, our our youth members are as involved as our older members. So they're not in a in a [00:42:30] separate wing there. We're all in it together. And our basic philosophy is, um we're very, um uh, devolved. And like, the previous incarnation of top, um, So, uh, what? What? How you, um, members want to do? Um, we'll we'll let them do as long as it broadly aligns with our, um Nicola. My question is directly for you today. Um, Jerry Brownley, the deputy leader of the National [00:43:00] Party, voted against the civil Union bill in 2004 and the Marriage Amendment act in 2013 and at the reading of the Marriage Amendment Act said Quote. The question is, why would one want to recognise a law? A group of people who have said for so long they want to be recognised as different but are now saying they want to be treated the same as other people? In my view, the sad fact is, although some will find this difficult to take, they are not the same. While you've done a great job at talking the talk today, how are we supposed to believe [00:43:30] or vote for you when one of the people at the helm of your party, frankly, forgive my French does not give a shit about queer people? Um, I'm I'm not here to explain the workings of people's minds a decade ago when they made statements. But what I can do is I can judge Judith Collins and Jerry Brownley from what are [00:44:00] the actions that I have seen from them, And I believe that they are both people who treat human beings with dignity and with respect, who operate in an inclusive way and who do celebrate diversity. I judge them by their actions. I'm proud to be led by them, and I am proud to be a voice and our caucus that believes absolutely. And the rights of individuals, no matter what the gender, sexuality or expression is, I will continue to stand strongly for that. Whether or not you attack [00:44:30] me, whether or not you've got nasty things to say about my party, I will continue to stand here and be that voice. Thank you. OK, so I actually have two questions. The first one is about sex, Ed. And do you support teaching the sex ed in school? Especially queer sex ed and enforcing that that it be taught, especially in Catholic schools, Because I shouldn't have had learned through Tum Tumblr about my own sexuality and [00:45:00] my own gender identity. Yeah, so that question is for all candidates, and there is one following up after this. Thank you. Ok, well, I'll answer the first one first. Um, yeah, my understanding is that the boards of trustees, um, set this policy, but I don't really understand why we would think it was a good thing for Children to go through life without basic education about their, [00:45:30] um this. You know how their how their bodies work and how relationships work. So, yeah, I I've been really appalled at how little my Children at secular schools have got. And it's, um it's not good enough. In my opinion, Do you want us to all go through and then do the second one? Oh, that was the first question, right? Yes. So the first question that definitely, uh, too much of my professional life [00:46:00] has, um, brought me into contact with people who, um, for whom? Sex education was, uh, something that, um, was overlooked. Treated with shame and stigma. And, um, and lead people into, uh, situations where, um they couldn't live free and full happy life. So, yes, Absolutely. Um, my view is that the, uh, really good curriculum that we have on paper should be a reality in all of our schools. [00:46:30] Same. Um, and you know, my I had a youth MP last term. So, like, four years ago, who was at school, and she was in a Catholic school, young, bisexual woman. And the main takeaway she had from her, um, school sex ed was the exercise to describe her ideal husband in this day and age. Like, that's inexcusable, and and, um, and at the moment, there's no real way of challenging that. [00:47:00] Thank you for mentioning Catholic education because I had a teacher at high school who told me that the best form of contraception was abstinence. It's not contraception. That's not how it works. Yes, we need better sex ed in schools. Six, is there in the curriculum and where it where it's described in the curriculum. It's meant to be inclusive, and it's meant to be good. Um, but I think we have to hold individual school boards accountable for delivering on what's [00:47:30] there in the curriculum. And I actually think we, as parents, have a really important job. We actually have the job of where we see schools not doing a good enough job in this area of going to our boards and asking that they do. And we also have a job as parents of having these conversations at home. You know, my kids are 10, 87 and four, and we've started these conversations. Uh, and I know that these conversations are gonna get a lot harder, but I feel a personal responsibility to go and get the information [00:48:00] about how I do it Well, because I don't just want to delegate it to teachers. I, as a mother feel a real personal responsibility to do it as well. So the second question is quite topical with recent events. So, um, with the youth scandals coming out of the youth wings, do you support the removal of those the harassers in the youth wing? Sorry. So the abuse scandals and sexual violence in the youth thinks, Do you support [00:48:30] the removal of the per perpetrators that cause those harms? Especially if it's cross party between the youth wings? Um, that is for, um, all everyone if you want to answer it, but particularly towards the young Nats, because from my own experience, I have had someone from the young Nats harass me, and he's still involved with the young Nats today. Well, I'm certainly, um, shocked to hear that. Um, I hope that you have been able to [00:49:00] bring your story forward. Uh, and I'm really happy to speak with you afterwards about how I can support you to do that. Um, we want involvement in our political party to be safe and anyone involved, and it should be free from any form of harassment. Um, And so if that hasn't been the case, for you. I would like to talk to you about that. Thank you very much. And just to say that this is a challenge for, um us as a country [00:49:30] and that, um and that we all have to be working on making sure that the environments and groups that we're part of whatever they are are safe spaces free from sexual harassment. And that sounds like a nice, tidy sound bite. Right? It is. But that takes a lot of work. You've got to develop good policies and make sure that everyone understands them and has the confidence and the backing [00:50:00] to be able to follow them. So the greens have revitalised our sexual harassment policy and created a new one. And they're going through a process of developing E training for all of our leaders right across the country to be able to make sure that that doesn't just sit as a policy and a piece of paper, but as a live document to protect everyone within our organisation because we need to work and be actively involved in creating [00:50:30] a safe society. And that's on all of us. I'm sorry of your experience. Yeah, I I'd just like to add to the comments that it's unacceptable to have sexual harassment in, um, youth wings or actually, in po politics, Uh, including in our parliament. Thank you. Um, I'd like to thank you. Sorry, I didn't get your name for asking that question. And also thank you, Nicola, for responding in a compassionate manner. I really appreciate that. Genuinely. [00:51:00] And I hope that you'll be able to discuss after the forum and get some resolution. Um, next up, what have we got? Um, what will your party be doing to ensure that disabled rainbow people get the same access to services and support that the wider Rambo community do is often were considered to be an afterthought in rainbow issues despite being widely overrepresented. I mean, I think that, uh, topic [00:51:30] is about addressing, um, you know, fundamental issues. And I know, and I know that support for all all people with disabilities is is, um, a fundamental problem. So, I mean, we just We take the approach we take with everything, which is to, um, listen to the communities and listen to experts on what we can do, but also, um, addressing those fundamentals of, um uh poverty and housing poverty are are our priorities. But I would really love to talk to you afterwards. About what? Could, um what [00:52:00] you would like to see us do as well, I, I think, um uh, I can't give a specific answer, but I will give two general principles that I think are very important. One is your question related specifically to services? I mean, it is not OK that we spend billions of budgets through health and education, um, to provide services that are inaccessible. And the second thing is that people, uh, with disability should [00:52:30] be leaders of service provision. And it's a really important concept that we are starting to have the beginnings of. I know in the health sector, uh, we're starting to begin to provide, uh, services. And if I think back to my day and time in medical school, um, we actively I mean, there were there were so many barriers to students with disabilities coming, for example, um, people who were in wheelchairs [00:53:00] who for the first time had to access our buildings, had to go in the goods entrance to get into our our medical school. And that is those sorts of barriers need to be broken down so that we are providing services for people led by people. Um, with with disability who therefore can provide an acceptable and open, you know, accessible service to everyone. Um, yeah. This is like it's about being intersectional, isn't it about actually recognising that we don't [00:53:30] live in queer lives, disabled lives? Um, migrant community lives, You know that. Actually, people, we're a mix of a range of experiences, and our services need to respond to that. And, um, break down some of those silos and I. I just want to do a little and this and we are working in the work that I'm doing to try and, like, work, get into that. And there's a huge amount of work to do because that's not [00:54:00] how government traditionally works. And I do just want to do a little shout out to the community on this because I was part of, um, the Human Rights Commission and the Rainbow Cross Party group has a, um, meeting with the community every few months, months, and we had to catch up after covid. And I've got to say, like I wish every single person in this room could have been part of that because I came away just so incredibly proud of our communities. [00:54:30] We heard about the experience of Maori and older queers and people with disabilities and Children and the all the range of our sexualities and people from migrant communities and Pacifica communities within this LGBT Q I space. And it was just the reflection of our beautiful diversity beyond our letters. And, um and I think it is about, for example, of [00:55:00] the government stepping back down into the community to take the leadership from where the real practise change is happening, which is with you, and we just need to be, I think, resourcing and supporting and learning from that because it was super inspiring to me. Sorry, we've only got two microphones. Uh, the short answer is [00:55:30] talking to your community finding out what you need and how to best do that, making sure your community has representation as involved in the process to give you a bit of a rundown on my own history of working with, um, communities who are disabled. Um, for those of you who don't know my full time job, I work in a Theatre down the road. My contract says I'm not allowed to name it or talk about it, but it has the same name as a flying animal and we, yeah, that's a weird [00:56:00] one to get around. So, uh, we've been doing a lot of work in this space specifically for communities who are disabled, in particular for those who are visually impaired. Those who have trouble with hearing those who are movements impaired to try and work on ways to make this more accessible. And I think that needs to go into every aspect of New Zealand life because we should all be able to participate in our society [00:56:30] wherever possible. Government should strive to deliver services that are tailored to people's specific needs. Uh, and I know in Government National, uh, tried to implement part of that approach through the enabling Better Lives programme, giving disabled people control over their own resources and services to which they're entitled, but not just giving them the cookie cutter government solution, allowing them to put together the support and services that work for them. But I'm actually really interested in your answer to this question, so I'd appreciate [00:57:00] the opportunity Uh, to catch up afterwards to hear your views on how government can do better in this area. Oh, thank you so much. Uh, sorry. I'll have to get all Christian people to come to me because I don't Hi. Um, sorry. Um, it's so awesome to come to this event. It's my first one in Wellington. Um, I was really interested in your responses to how, what? What your parties are doing to support queer [00:57:30] communities of colour. And I was disappointed because not one answer referred to actual direct policy, which is really interesting because currently, Minister, um, Minister Little has talked about a hate speech review back last year. When March 15th happened, I don't know what's happened with that. That in itself is not enough. Whereas the UK has the equalities Act 2010, which 10 years ago, which covers everybody who is a minority based on race, [00:58:00] ethnicity, Geno, sexuality, all those things. We don't have that here. And it's not enough for you guys to say, you know, you support it, but what are you actually doing? Because racism isn't new. BLM isn't new, So I need to know what your direct policy is I need to know from doctor Burro. What is taking so long with the hate with the hate speech of review? And I don't want to hear that we've got a balanced freedom of expression because in the same, um, Bill of Rights Act is the freedom of discrimination from M minorities. So that trumps freedom of expression. That's my [00:58:30] first question. Is that OK? Cool. Yeah. I mean, um, the you I totally accept that, um what you've hate speech is real. Racism is real. And, um, uh, this is an important area. Labour is working on its policy on this and, uh, you right to identify that we have been delayed by some of these difficult issues. I am not going [00:59:00] like you. I do not accept Uh um the, um uh excuse that. Um, uh, freedom of speech prevents us from doing anything in this area, but it does mean that we have to do a lot of homework to make progress. And that is the stage that we are at. Yeah, I'm sorry if I didn't answer that question. Well, uh, we are a small party, and there are a lot of issues we don't have, um, policies on. But our policy for a written constitution absolutely [00:59:30] is going to be talking about, um, ethnicity. Like there's there's there's no doubt. Um, but what we what we do in concrete terms now, as we seek out any area where there are, um, real effects on people's lives. So, for instance, our, um the reason we support legalisation and regulation of cannabis and the reason we support a massive overhaul of our justice system is because it disport disproportionately hurts people of colour. So those that's what we do [01:00:00] have, um, in terms of concrete policy, but we don't have a policy on hate speech. I mean, but, you know, I know what it would be if we had one, but we have a small set. Sorry. I thought I had articulated, um, quite a few policies in response to this. So one, we do have the view around hate speech. And until you came by, nobody else. Ok, All right. So do I. I [01:00:30] won't repeat. Ok, um the the Bill of Rights, This is absolutely not an excuse, and it needs to be improved. So the Bill of Rights has a little segment about hate speech and why it's prohibited, but it needs. It needs more teeth. It doesn't have enough here in New Zealand. It's kind of just don't say mean things. And that's kind of all the legislation in this country is, and that needs to be improved as well. Improving the Bill of Rights [01:01:00] is something that is currently being talked about at integrity in New Zealand, but we haven't yet got the policy put together for it. But even if you improve the bill of Rights, if someone assaults me, um and I know it's because I'm black It doesn't matter when I go to the police because it's an aggravating factor. It's not the factor. So the police have to remember to put it as a catch and summary and refer to the bill of they're not. They don't do that. And I know this because I have a friend in the police who says they don't do this. So the Bill of Rights Act is a fluffy piece of policy. It's not half [01:01:30] legislation which actually has, um uh, clauses on prosecution. You actually need a law like an actual piece of ledge, and I don't understand. It's just so easy to say. Yeah, we'll look into this because it's not new. I. I don't Yeah. Same thing happened with my sister court for a joint in her pocket. One tiny little piece of cannabis that if she was white, also wouldn't have happened. And sorry, um, Nico, before [01:02:00] you answer, I also No, no, I want you to answer. But I also want to preface what I really want you to address what Judith Collins said about wiping the list as well, because that's the most offensive thing. One of the most offensive things I say. So when you say you stand by your your political leader and you stand for BMW, what do you what's your take on that? I believe that all ethnicities should be treated equally and where they're not treated equally. That that's not acceptable. [01:02:30] Thank you. Alright. Did you? Oh, you've got one more question. Did you wanna take a take a break and then we'll go to someone else's person? No. Alright, Off we roll and final question is just in a reference to the police because, um, doctor, you talked about having diversity officers. Um but I just, uh I mean, what for? All for all of you. Um, what would you do if with regards to police, cultural competency [01:03:00] and the systemic racism, transphobia, homophobia, biphobia and trans misogyny in the police force, particularly among new recruits, it was so trigger happy and tend to be young, male white guys who don't understand what it's like to be a person of any sort of difference. What would you do to make sure they are trained up adequately to deal with minority communities And, um, to also not get their pants in the twist because they're not allowed to march in uniform at Auckland [01:03:30] Pride because they've done nothing to support quick metres of colour? Thank you. I think that it's it's a good step that, um, there's the discussion happening around that, um, systemic racism exists within the police and that that, you know, has been confirmed by the data. And, um, you know, the police commission has been given that [01:04:00] the right data. Now finally, to confirm that, um, and we need to make sure that there is a training response to that and that I also personally believe we can't just leave it to training. It's also about building the relationships in the community, to have an eye on the practise and to be able to feed back examples of when things are going wrong, that people [01:04:30] in the community, if they experience harassment or discrimination, that they've got a trusted person in their community who has a kind of a a phone line to people who can actually respond and try and correct when things go wrong, because getting consistent practise and overcoming embedded generations of structural discrimination is not a quick fix. And we've got to start [01:05:00] actually increasing the resource and power within our communities to be able to, um, have more influence on our line of sight on our government agencies to help them make these changes because they're not easy changes for institutions to make. And we can if we pretend that they are. I fear that we risk having this conversation again in 10 years because people say that they're gonna [01:05:30] do it and they may have the right intention. But it just doesn't bed in, and we have to create systems to make sure that we're constantly hearing when it's not happening. Just to say I don't think that that's a completely fair characterization of the police. There are some and in fact, most police officers are are incredibly [01:06:00] good servants in our community who do really good work to keep us safe. And I think there would have been something powerful about having police in uniform marching in the pride parade. Actually, I think that sends an important signal, uh, both to those wishing to join the police, Uh, and to others A about the fact that the police officers do align with all communities, saying that I, I always think that there is more that we can do to ensure that officers [01:06:30] coming through have the training they need to deal with the situations they will face in the most effective and compassionate manner. Mhm. We have a II. I really love our criminal justice policy. And that's that's about, um, reducing, reducing over policing basically and reducing prison populations. But this is my, um, my personal view. Um, I recently learned about the I think [01:07:00] it's called the Freedom House Ambulance, which is the the the first paramedics, um, were, um, African American men. And they were, um, before before they existed. If you were in the States and you had a medical emergency, The police would come, Um, and, uh, either the police or, um uh, a funeral home because they were the people who could take stretches, which is really bizarre. And then this new profession was invented. I promise. This has a point that gets to that, gets [01:07:30] your question. A new profession was invented, which was paramedics who could come and actually help people and particularly for African American communities. That was incredibly important because they didn't want the same people who had been arresting them and beating them up one day to come and help them if they're having a heart attack the next day. So what I'm getting to is I feel like that there is a new profession that we need, Um, that hasn't Maybe it hasn't been invented yet. That's not the ambulance. And it's not the police, but it's people who are there to to help people who [01:08:00] are possibly having, um, mental health issues. Or there's some kind of, um, non violent incident going on that normally we would send the police to, but the police are just not the right people to do it, and I think they've shown in a lot of cases they can't be trusted and are not the right people to attend. These sorts of events just like to support um, Jan's, uh, comments about [01:08:30] the things that, um, parliamentarians can do to, um, make sure that the police are, um, held to account and practising in a way that is appropriate through, uh, data. And, um, to hold them account to data. Um, that's collected. That is accurate about, um, systemic bias in policing. And secondly, ensure that that is part of, um of training. I think the, um and also yes, I did mention the police, Um uh, diversity [01:09:00] liaison officers. They are part of the solution which Jan mentions also included, um, engagement with community. And actually that not being something that's done once but is an ongoing, um, thing, because that's how trusting relationships can be built and sustained. I mean, I think the the thing that I find tricky about, um, about where about pride is just that, um, there are, um, uh, queer police officers doing, um, you know, being part [01:09:30] of the positive change we want to see and I, I want them to feel um, like they can be, um, uh, proud of who, Who they are and the really important role they're having in transforming forming the police. However, um, I also think that there are times when there are, uh, when it is, um, very difficult Between our community and the police and the right, um, decision at one moment might have been to set a laid out that that that probably was [01:10:00] the right decision. But, um uh, in the long term, we have to get to a place where we have a, um a police service that, uh um com minority communities, um, Rainbow community And, um uh, and, um, uh, black and brown members of our community feel safe with an important time to think about how you're voting on the cannabis referendum, because obviously these issues are very pertinent to that as well. [01:10:30] Thank you so much for that. Um, we've come to the end now, so I just want to thank all of you all the way from Kalla representing the top party. Um, Miss Jessica Hamon. Thank you so much. She has answered the questions tonight to Rainbow Affairs and also has answered a lot of questions regarding the covid tracing app. Thank you. Um, [01:11:00] the train might have stopped her tonight, but she's here, OK? Being the integrity of representing integrity in New Zealand. Well, right, thank you is the lead. Nicola will. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for being welcome. Um, if you have any questions, [01:11:30] um, for, um, representatives, uh, after this as well, please feel free. Um, we just end with Thank you. Thank you. OK.

IRN: 3364
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/lgbttqiapplus_political_forum_part_1.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004603
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089897
TITLE: Part 1 - LGBTTQIAP+ Political Forum
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ayesha Verrall; Jan Logie; Jessica Hammond; Nicola Willis; Troy Mihaka; Vivian Lyngdoh
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Ayesha Verrall; Eva Beva; General election; Green Party; Jan Logie; Jessica Hammond; National Party; New Zealand Labour Party; Nicola Willis; The Integrity Party of Aotearoa New Zealand; The Opportunities Party (TOP); Troy Mihaka; Vivian Lyngdoh
DATE: 26 July 2020
YEAR: 2020
LOCATION: Eva Beva, 31-35 Dixon Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the LGBTTQIAP+ Political Forum held at Eva Beva, Wellington on 26 July 2020. The event has been split into two parts. Part 2 can be found here.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Welcome, everyone. Thank you so much for coming today. Um, just to state the foundational [00:00:30] rules today, um, this is a place of respect. Um, it's an open floor discussion. Um, with a few questions for me first, which have been collated by the wonderful, um, over the past few weeks. Um, there shall be no heckling from either side. Um, otherwise you'll have me to deal with. Um um, but thank you again to Roxy for organising this political forum on behalf of the community in art and [00:01:00] particularly in Wellington. Um, thank you to our candidates who are here. We've got Jessica haymond from the top party. We've got a from the labour. We've got Troy from integrity and we've got from the national party. Um, from the greens party. Ja. Just stuck on a train. Unfortunately, she is on her way shortly. Um, and we've got a few apologies. Um, from act. Um, we've got no response. Acknowledgement from Maori and Z first and [00:01:30] declined to engage new conservatives. T a and advance. Um, so yeah. Welcome, everyone. Uh, shall we begin? That's good. Cool. Um, so the the way this is gonna run is I'm gonna ask a question. Uh, we've got, um, 2 to 3 minutes to engage in the conversation and state your opinion. Your discussion points, we can go from there, but before we begin all of [00:02:00] that, we'll just need an introduction. So if you can just introduce yourself, um, and say something about yourself. Really? Yeah. Yes, Integrity. Oh, that is really loud, I. I am Troy. I'm running with the Integrity Party of A in New Zealand. We are a brand new party which makes me the newcomer up here on the stage, [00:02:30] We were founded by a group of people who were unhappy with the way that the larger political parties were running. So we started our own system, our own way to try and replicate them. I am the deputy leader. I will be standing in. I have been fighting for queer rights almost my entire life on Twitter. Recently, it came up with I actually had to think about the history because on Twitter it came up with a statement of tell us about the most on brand thing you did when you were in high school and I had to think about it, and it occurred [00:03:00] to me that the most on brand thing I did was discover that my school dance wouldn't allow me to take a same sex partner. So despite the fact that I was single, I started a massive campaign to try and get the school to change that role. They did about three years later. So I'm told in order to try and fight for that right. And this is also the story of how I came out at my high school. Interesting change. These days I've been fighting for the right to donate blood. That is something I would really like to [00:03:30] be able to do. But I started a petition about four months ago, and many of you in this room have already put your name on it. So thank you for that. I am trying to get it before Parliament. At the moment, I had to email my local MP. I'm supposed to be nice, so I won't mention who my local MP is. I tell you when she isn't so busy, she might respond. So integrity is a new party formed on the basis of whole [00:04:00] order, which is the Maori philosophy of well-being trying to do what is right for people equality the, um the philosophy of making sure that everyone is equal. We do know that not everyone is born in the same position and we need to spend a bit of time getting people to that position. That is what we focus on and integrity because we believe that when you're saying you're going to do something, you should actually then do it. So I am standing in the electorate of So if you live in Wellington, south or Wellington [00:04:30] East, you'll be able to vote for me. Thank you. Thank you. My name is Aisha Be and I'm a labour list candidate. And some of you might recognise me from the lockdown when I was an advocate for contact tracing and con wrote a go a report for the government on how to improve our contact tracing system, which was part of the fantastic response. We've had more broadly in New Zealand to beat the [00:05:00] virus and to mean that we can be meeting in a space like this today to tell you a little bit about myself. Um, I'm, uh I'm from Southland, and I came out when I was at high school. And I was wondering today Oh, who who found out about this event through the Internet through Facebook or or something like that? Right. Any of you, Um, I probably was one of the last people to come out before the internet. And if you, um, came out since then just [00:05:30] to explain what it was like, there was a letter writing to a PO box to get the, um, address of a place in Wellington in in the cargo where my dad had to drive me two hours in the car and I met this man Colin underneath the mud sculpture at Valentine's. Um, so totally a different world. So, um uh, from there, I went to university, met the love of my life. Alice at at University. We're in a civil union partnership [00:06:00] and we have a seven year old girl and thank you. That's something I take for for granted at all. And, um, I became an infectious diseases specialist, and in that role, I had the privilege of looking after some members of the rainbow community. That's a part of that job as well. Uh, and it's been amazing to see the changes that have happened in that space during my life. And another part of my job that I'm really proud of is that I teach medical students about how to treat our community with dignity and respect. [00:06:30] Um, so, uh, I'm very happy and proud to be standing for labour because of the inclusive society that labour stands for. Thank you very much. And thank you to the organisers for having us together today. Uh uh uh KK James Co Harriet CO Gloria [00:07:00] A, uh and I am very proud to call this place my home. I'm Nicola Willis. I'm a national party list MP based very proudly here in Wellington. I entered Parliament in 2018. I tried to get there in 2017, and I made it for just two weeks. And then the special votes were recounted. I got kicked out again and waited until other members retired, uh, and then entered. And I've had a great 2. 5 years in Parliament. [00:07:30] I'm proud to stand for the National Party because of the values that we represent. We represent equality of opportunity, reward for reward for achievement, personal responsibilities, strong families, strong communities and When I think about the issues that we are gonna discuss in this room today, I see them through the lens of my Children, which is right now we know that if you're growing up in New Zealand as a member of the Rainbow Community Research Paper, after research paper tells [00:08:00] us that you're more likely to experience issues of, um, mental distress brought about by the environment that you are being, uh, that you are living in. And we've seen research here in Wellington, uh, by Gloria Fraser and others, which shows that even in a society that has progressed, uh, we still see that young people find it difficult to come out and find it difficult to fully express their gender and sexual identity. And I want a New Zealand where everybody can be [00:08:30] proud in their identity. They can express it proudly, and where no-one growing up queer in New Zealand, need experience the rates of, um, ill health that we we continue to see today. So to me, that's the vision that we should all have as lawmakers and policy makers. Um, I know that in this room there are people who have fought hard for advancement of many issues. I commend you. I commend the organisers who are here for the work you do for the Wellington Rainbow community. Uh, and I look forward to the opportunity today [00:09:00] not only to speak to you, but to listen. Uh, for as long as I am a lawmaker, I want to be open to a range of perspectives and open, uh, to hearing from those who have experience, uh, in the grassroots of our community. So thank you for this opportunity. My name is Jessica Hammond. I'm very proud to be representing the opportunities party. And, [00:09:30] um, you're gonna hear a lot. I think about our policies today and how they will actually make a difference for your lives. It's not just about saying the right things, but it's about doing things that will actually make a difference to you in terms of your well-being. Your experiences, um, of, uh, poverty of health, of mental health, of housing, of affordable housing. So we'll get to that. But I just want to tell you a little bit about, um myself and how I have come here today. Um, I grew [00:10:00] up in a deeply homophobic Catholic household where when I was a child, my mom campaigned, um, against homosexual law reform. And I was told as a child that if I were a lesbian, that I would always be welcome in my home. But my friend would not be now, that was, um, unpleasant for me. But it turns [00:10:30] out it was absolutely crushing for my brother, who you may have heard of his. His name is Robin Hammond. He's a, um um Human rights photo journalist. Um, he he the the little girl with, um, transgender girl with pink hair. On the cover of National Geographic was his, um, photo. He has a project called We Love Is Illegal where you'd be very, very welcome to share your stories. Um, so he for many years [00:11:00] has been campaigning, particularly in countries where it is literally illegal to not be straight and suspended. Um, but he also works in other countries where it is legal, but really freaking difficult and awful. Um, he last year at the age of 44 told us that he is bisexual, 44 and you can imagine why he did not feel comfortable [00:11:30] telling us that beforehand. The really shocking thing was when he told my mother and she goes, I think I might be as well During lockdown, my little eight year old daughter was seeming very thoughtful and we went for a little walk together and I could see she had something on her mind. And when we got back home, you know, I was saying, Are you [00:12:00] OK? Are you OK? And she goes, I want to tell you something and I thought, It's OK, you can tell me anything and she goes, Oh, can you just guess? And I said, Is it something about who you love? And she said Yes. And I said, Is it that you love girls? And she said, Oh, you sort of. And I said, Is it that you love girls and boys? And she said Yes. And I said, Thank you for telling me, baby, I'm really proud of you and I I [00:12:30] am really proud that she is an eight year old is now nine. felt totally fine to tell your mum that when my brother had to wait until he was 44. So I know we'd like to get to a world where coming out isn't even a thing that you need to do because I didn't need to come out. Um, but I hope it's an improvement, and we can fight for more improvements that [00:13:00] that we work. Um, I forgot to introduce myself. I'm Vivian. I'm the chair of Wellington Pride Festival. A few committee members as well here. So if you do see us around later, please make sure to say hi and give us your feedback for the, um committee so we can celebrate all queer people for next year. Um, it's getting bigger and better next year as well. Um, but thank you so much [00:13:30] for this introduction. So shall we begin with the questions? Great. So the first question is, with respect to the BLM movement, what specific policies will your party introduce? Or further to improve the lives of LGBT TQIAP plus black and brown indigenous people of colour in a how are we gonna help people of colour in the queer community? [00:14:00] Well, being one, that's kind of a big issue for me being Maori. I often find that walking into queer spaces here in Wellington, I tend to be the brownest person in the room, and I mean, look at me. That's not OK. Not even slightly. So, uh, representation is by far one of the biggest things that we can offer. We have not yet got. As far as sorting out a policy for dealing with black lives matter for integrity, we just built a party. We are working on that one, and [00:14:30] it's very high on my list of priorities. But representation is what matters. Being able to see yourself represented in the mainstream and then the people around you is incredibly important to make the people feel as though they're included in a community. For example, if I can do that annoying thing, politicians do anyone in the room right now, I'm gonna ask, and I'm not gonna make fun of you. But anyone in the room, I'm gonna ask that if you identify as not Paki ha white or Caucasian, please raise your hand. [00:15:00] There's a few of us here, and that's great. But remember how we're the biggest country in the South Pacific and that's the only people that we have here who put their hands up. Where is everyone else? Representation is what I am aiming for. Thank you, Troy. Thank you. So um, as I said, Uh, I'm really proud to be a Labour member because we stand for an inclusive society and it's been really heartening [00:15:30] to see the black lives matter across the country across the world raise the issue of systemic racism and the uncomfortable reckoning we all have to have in every country about systemic racism. Some of the things that Labour has done to address this in New Zealand is to teach the actual history of introduce policy that the actual history of a needs to be taught in our schools, including, uh, the New Zealand, New Zealand wars and schools. In addition, Labour's [00:16:00] introduced a policy called which is addressing the, um, uh unconscious bias and how it impacts Maori learners. And there's, uh, pilot programmes underway to, uh, engage Maori learners more in in learning and to address uh, racism that they encounter. I know for our community, uh, for rainbow communities, um, issues. Some of these issues, especially for people of colour, are particularly fraught when it comes to the police. And one measure that Labour has taken is [00:16:30] introducing diversity liaison officers throughout the police force in New Zealand that are meant to be. And when, uh, times are good reaching out and building relationships with community. But also then when we do need the support of the police, hopefully finding a more friendly face when we need to engage with them. I think finally, this this question is about the intersection of our identities both as rainbow and as, uh, minority peop, uh, people, minority ethnicities, black and brown people. [00:17:00] And I think you just need to look at the Labour Caucus to know how seriously we take this. So, uh, Grant Robertson is a pakeha, uh, man. But in our caucus, the leaders of the Labour Rainbow Caucus include, uh, Tamati Coffee. Uh, Kitty Allen. You'll know Louisa Wall from her work in, um uh, in in, uh, marriage equality. And I hope to join this caucus if you party vote labour, and I am a woman, Um, I'm Maldivian as well as ethnicity, and I hope I bring my perspective [00:17:30] as an Asian woman to that, uh, to that caucus. So thank you. Thank you. Well, like Troy and Ahi, can I acknowledge that? Of course, there are some really challenging issues of intersectionality, uh, in our community, uh, speaking before this debate. Today we were discussing what it is as an organisation, whether you're a political organisation and our in my case representing the national Party or whether you're any other community group such as, [00:18:00] uh, Rainbow Wellington, or such as the Pride Festival. Uh, how we make sure that we are places where voices from all parts of different communities can be heard and can feel able to share a voice. And that's certainly something that I think we need to strive for as parliamentarians, that we don't just represent ourselves, but that we represent a broad range of people and I stand by my record as an MP of being highly engaged across the community and providing opportunities for people to share their perspectives with [00:18:30] me in terms of law making. Sometimes that requires of us to say that the way that we have done things in the past isn't good enough and that we have to do better. And I'm really proud of Nationals record in terms of expunging homosexual convictions, bringing forward legislation to do that because to me that is an example of a law that was wrong at the time but that by keeping those convictions actually meant that some members of our community faced ongoing [00:19:00] harm into the future because they had that conviction. And so the move by national to expunge those convictions was a good one. And I think an example of how we can make progress together as a community. Thank you. So, you know, at top, we think that we don't want to just, um, put band aids on every solution, and we don't want to just see the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. So, um, you know, the first thing the top is very committed to is honouring the treaty, and that includes recognising Maori water rights, [00:19:30] which is something that we need to do in and of itself. But it's also something we need to do. Um, before we can, um, resolve commercial water rights use and protect our environment. Um, but in terms of what is going to make a real difference for, uh, for Maori Pacific people, people of colour and people of the rainbow community who are all overrepresented in some of the really dire statistics in New Zealand is to, um reduce, [00:20:00] eliminate poverty and address housing costs and housing discrimination. So, uh, a universal basic income of $250 a week for every adult, $40 for every child is our flagship policy. And that means working income doesn't it is none of their business who you live with, who you are having sex with. You get that money regardless, as as a right. You don't have to deal with MS [00:20:30] D any more. Um, we also want to address the housing crisis because housing costs are the biggest driver of poverty in New Zealand. No question, they are the biggest driver of inequality in New Zealand. So in terms of things that are actually going to make a difference to the lives of people of colour and communities and anyone else who is disadvantaged in New Zealand, those are the two major things we need to do. What? [00:21:00] Thank you. Um, the next question is, what will your party, what will your party do to continue to develop the health and well-being of Rainbow communities, especially for our youth and trans intersex and non binary final choice, Health and well-being is a very important one to us, Water literally means well-being. In Maori, we have a policy to increase funding to the mental health system here [00:21:30] in New Zealand, to give every New Zealander the ability to access two years free preventative care and mental health. That's psychotherapy and counselling. And this is incredibly important and will go a long way to de stigmatising issues around mental health. When we're talking about the rainbow community, our community is 12 times more likely than the straight community to be represented in mental health statistics. And one in five in our community has a attempted suicide. At some point in our life that [00:22:00] is huge. And if you're talking about the trans and intersex community, that statistic is even higher. So our mental health policy is about de stigmatising seeking help and finding someone who can talk you through those concerns. Thank you. Uh, this is an issue very close to my heart working in the health sector, And I think, um, firstly, it's important just to think, um, reflect [00:22:30] on what the government has done for health for the rainbow community. In the last term, we were elected saying Labour was elected, saying they would, uh, fund um, pre expo prep or pre exposure prophylaxis, which is medicine that can be taken regularly in advance of having sex to prevent HIV transmission during sex and that is now available in our community. And it's just wonderful. I mean, it raises the possibility that, um rather than, um, managing HIV we can move to a community without HIV. The [00:23:00] second, um, thing that's really important is that we've, um, funded the hey. Oh, welcome, Jan. Come on up. Welcome. Uh, we've funded the health behavioural survey, which, um, sounds very geeky, and but it is important to people who aren't just epidemiologists like me. So, um, this is a survey of [00:23:30] the rainbow community sexual behaviour and the importance of it is we really need to make health interventions for good sexual health for our community based on data and not on prejudice. So it's crucial. And the last government didn't fund that, uh, survey, and we've reinstated funding for it. And then, as Troy has mentioned, there is a real issue for our community in terms of mental health care and labour has made a an investment in mental health care that is really once in a generation, we have funded [00:24:00] for over 10,000 people to be able to have, um, uh, free counselling services. And in our region in Wellington, that's, um, primarily through the picky programme, which is focused, uh, particularly on young people. Cool. So those are really key areas. Of course, there is more to do. That is particularly the case for transgender, um, where we have, um uh, we have got the beginnings of, um, access to surgery, but clearly that access needs to be improved. So [00:24:30] we have a system for it, but the funding is is not adequate. And that is obviously a place where more work remains to be done. Thank you. I think one of the things that we sometimes underestimate the impact of, but that does make a difference for young people. Growing up is celebrating diversity, you know, and I. I think about this when I think about my kids who for as long as they can remember, have known that Mum goes [00:25:00] off to pride parades and goes off to out in the park. And when they've asked me what it's about, it's actually very easy to say. Well, because people are different, they have different experiences, and we celebrate everyone. But for a long time. People whose experiences and the mainstream experience have had a hard time in New Zealand and they look up at me with their little innocent faces and they can't really conceive of that. But it opens up the opportunity for those conversations. So we need to continue to have [00:25:30] things like pride parades out in the park pride festivals to open up conversations not only with young people and Children, but actually with employers with our colleagues and with all of us. Because I think it's by having those outward expressions, uh, that we're able to have some of the difficult conversations about those areas where progress is yet to be made. Nationals had a policy position where we have committed additional funding to the AIDS Foundation, who we believe do incredible work, uh, and have got some incredible results. [00:26:00] Uh, as a, um talks about, um, the other area that I am particularly interested in as nationals education spokesperson is what we do in our schools in terms of mental health skills, mental health, resilience and how we create inclusive schooling environments. We have had a petition to the Education and Workforce Select Committee of Parliament uh, from young people themselves, saying We think this needs to be done better and it's been fascinating because we've had the Ministry of Education come to us and say, You know, the [00:26:30] curriculum already includes all of the stuff. Lots of schools are doing a great job. There's some brilliant programmes out there and you're right, it is in the curriculum and there are some brilliant programmes out there. But we need to do a a much better job of holding every school accountable for ensuring it creates an inclusive environment free of bullying and harassment, and that it provides all Children and equips all Children with the mental health skills they need to succeed in what can be a really difficult job. Thank you. [00:27:00] I really do applaud what the, um the government has done in terms of, um putting extra funding into mental health. I think that's really important. But again, we can't just be dealing with ambulances at the bottom of the cliff. We need to be looking at the, um, causes of ill health and mental ill health. And those in New Zealand are poverty, inequality, housing, uh, shortages. And the people my brother works [00:27:30] with who are, you know, dying early. It's because of homelessness, not, you know, it also because of freaking assaults and appalling things. But you know, this, this is this is a big problem in New Zealand. So we need to address the shortage of housing and the shortage of quality housing the houses that are making us sick. We just We just need to do something about that. And Top is actually the only party that has a policy to change [00:28:00] the tax incentives that basically have people getting wealthy from housing at the cost at the, um, putting that cost on to young people. So people like me who own a house are massively, massively, uh, being advantaged by the housing crisis. And the younger people in this room are paying for our wealth, which is just not on. So these are the causes major causes of ill health. Um, in New Zealand, we just need to address the root [00:28:30] causes of these things. Thank you. Shall we do an introduction today? Um, I'm the green Party rainbow spokesperson and really feel incredibly privileged to have been able to be, um, a spokespeople person for our community in parliament for the last almost nine years, which is frightening. [00:29:00] And in my maiden speech, I clearly defined and named myself as a proud lefty feminist lesbian. And that is the approach I bring to the work and that which is an intersectional one. So I today I'm gonna try and be really super specific around the quest and answers to the questions, um, that we've been given and that they are about looking [00:29:30] forward about what we're going to do. I'm assuming that others on the panel will talk about what's been done. I sit with a feeling that it's not enough yet, and we need to do more. So I'm gonna talk about what the greens are bringing to, um, the possibility of what could be next. So the first question that I as tragic victim of our public transport system. Sorry about that. Um, yeah, I know. It's so hard to be green. Right? Um, so around [00:30:00] the our response to black lives matter And what are our specific policies in addressing racism and structural racism in our country? And those policies are embedded right across, Um, our education policy, uh, about ensuring, um, that is a core curricular subject up to, uh, what is it? 10. You know the word that comes before the [00:30:30] team, um, and ensuring that we do the work. And I like I can look at, um, that we challenge and address and reflect on government practise right across our system, within justice, as in particular. And I think this is particularly relevant around black lives, matters and in correction system and start partnering with Maori and with Pacifica, and actually resourcing [00:31:00] those community responses to identifying problems early and actually helping people avoid a justice system altogether. And we know that in those examples of where that is happening and I understand they come up in, um there's an amazing project happening with Maori Women's Welfare League and there is this work happening all around our country. But we have to resource it, and the government has to step [00:31:30] out of the way of thinking that we always have the answer because actually, sometimes our answer is the wrong one, and we need to really step into that space. It's also around, um, implementing the, uh, response to the review of by the providers because we know that the well-being of our kids and our response to family and sexual violence and child safety [00:32:00] has to critically be work that's done by the whole community. And we're not getting that right now, and that has systemic and long term consequences for everyone in our society at the moment. So they are just some of the specific policies that we have. Um, but it's about resourcing, Maori and Pacifica and actually, um, helping people see the benefit [00:32:30] of the participation of everyone in our country and recognising different knowledge bases and how much better off we all are when those knowledge bases are all at the table and we're a long way from that at the moment. So in answer to the second question, which is around, what will we do to continue to develop the health and well-being of Rainbow Communities, especially, um, the health and well-being of, uh, Rainbow communities, [00:33:00] the youth trends intersex and non-binary for us at the heart of this, our response to this comes from the prism report that was led by the Human Rights Commission, where they identified that we have real issues in terms of aged care where, um, people are ending up going back into the closet and, um, in terms of their gender identity as well as their sexual orientation, because the aged care, um, homes that they are in actually [00:33:30] haven't had the training or the policies in place to support them, to be who they are in those places. And we do need to make sure that we're doing that work, that that resource is happening around training and good guidelines and safe staffing levels within those institutions to make sure that people have got the time and they're protected in terms of their identity. Also around ensuring that we are holding on that vision of being HIV free, um, [00:34:00] in this country and ensuring that we're as well as the anti discrimination work and the, um, access to safe sex that we have, um, that we are using prep and the new tools that are available to us. And that's being supported by good training right across our health care system, because the research is showing us that still, the health system has not caught up with the diversity of us in the world and that there's a lot more work to be done to upskill the full [00:34:30] range of health professionals to be able to respond appropriately to the whole range of our healthcare needs. And then there's. Of course, there's mental health, Um and that's and that is multifaceted. It is about creating a society that is inclusive, where poverty is not a barrier, where people are able to participate on the grounds of who they are as whole people, um, and that there aren't barriers in the way for that. But the prison report also [00:35:00] specifically said that there needs to be tailored services when people's mental health when they are struggling with their mental health. That identifies and responds to them as full people, and those services are not automatically or readily available. And we know that a lot of our community organisations right around the country are doing that work unfunded and unsupported [00:35:30] all too often. And I think that's one of our places where we can really gain is by getting the resource into our communities and supporting those people who are doing it already. And I think it's also obviously around, um, ensuring that there is no um um consented and unnecessary medical intervention on intersex babies. And it is also [00:36:00] also about ensuring that there is, um, equal and easy access to gender affirming health care consistently from, um, to the north. Sorry. First time. Thank you, John. Um, yeah, I absolutely agree. There's been a lot of work that's been done, but there's so much more work to be done. And that leads on [00:36:30] to the one more popular questions. Um, that's arisen from this, um um uh, forum, which is recently we news dot co dot NZ did an interview with Jan with Nicola with the honourable Prime Minister, out of which only Jan was pro for the creation of the Ministry for Rainbow Communities. Could you give us an indication as to where you stand personally and why? And would your party support the creation of a ministry Ministry office [00:37:00] for Rainbow Affairs? Mr. I like the idea of a minister for Rainbow Affairs. I do. I just want to know how it would be chosen and what it is because I personally don't like the idea of government doing everything top down and telling everyone below them how they should run their own communities. And quite frankly, I don't think we need another at the top. Telling me how to live my life, so I want to know how it would be chosen first. [00:37:30] So the prime Minister's indicated that this wouldn't be a policy that Labour would take forward at the election. But asked us, um asked the community to hold Labour to account for its deeds. And I think what I take that to me is that, uh, Labour, with its extremely large Rainbow Caucus, should be in there holding the Ministry of Health to account for how we're looking after the Rainbow Community Health holding the Ministry of Housing to account for, [00:38:00] uh, um, uh, access to housing for people in our community and similarly with education as well. So it is definitely not a, um a reluctance to take forward these issues. Just a question about how and I think I kind of echoed Troy's sentiments. I guess I was also asked for a personal view. So this is the personal view, um I, I guess, uh, when I think about how we've achieved change as a community, when I think about the people who fought for [00:38:30] access to medicines for HIV and um the eighties or who fought for marriage equality more recently, Um, when I think about that, what's been great about what our community has achieved has been that it's from It's from the grassroots up, and I'd have a lot of questions to ask. I guess I'm not saying I'm against it, but I'd have a lot of questions about what added value would get by having a, um a bureaucratic, uh, way of achieving. Um uh, achieving [00:39:00] that. So that's that's my question. I'm interested to hear from others about how they think it would work in practise. Thank you. Before I get to my, um, answer, can I just acknowledge Jen Logie? She's the only minister, um, on stage. And, um, we're lucky to have her with us. And I know a lot of the time national and the greens have very different views. Uh, so I just want to share with you that this week we together voted for a pay equity act, [00:39:30] and I just want to acknowledge that because often in these rooms we focus on the differences between our parties which are absolute, and you go off and vote for the for the differences you like or don't like. But there are also areas we have worked on together. Um, and I was really heartened Jan by you and your speech talking about or and the work that we can do to strengthen families so that we actually intervene early to prevent people coming in [00:40:00] touch with the justice system and having some of the inequities we see in our community. So that's another area where we probably see eye to eye in terms of the Rainbow Communities, um, ministry or office for rainbow Communities. Uh, as is mentioned in the question. I've already gone on the on national's position on that, which is that we absolutely accept that there is more progress to be made for rainbow communities across the board, and we accept that as an incoming government, we would need to make that progress. But we're not convinced that a new bureaucratic structure [00:40:30] is the best tool for advancing that, and in fact, we think it's incumbent on every government department. Whether you're the Ministry of Education or the Ministry of Health, you don't get to delegate responsibility for rainbow communities to another office. You are responsible, and we want every government department to take that approach that they are responsible for all communities. Yeah. I mean, I'm definitely, um, not against the idea. However, I've been a public [00:41:00] servant in a lot of government departments myself, including in population Ministries. And this is my one concern about having a, um, an office for a Ministry for Rainbow Community, which is that what tends to happen is the other departments go well, that's not my problem. And they absolve themselves of any responsibility. And this really, really does happen with women with Maori, with Pacific, with disabilities. That's someone else's problem. I don't have to think about it. Um, so I do. I think it's [00:41:30] something you'd want to think about really carefully. Um, usually, ministers like creating more ministries because the more, um, ministerial portfolios you have, the more the the more you get paid. So I'm surprised there are more of them, um, supporting it. But, um, I just think it's something I can definitely understand the, um the the benefits of having a person who's going to be a a spokesperson and a focal point for, [00:42:00] uh, issues for Rainbow communities. But I just reckon you want to be careful with calling for this one. it's something to think carefully about, thank you. So I'll just quickly lay out the reasons that we're suggesting it. Um, and so one is. It's the fundamental question of why are we the only ones without one? What's the barrier? And I don't think the barrier is any of that. I think it's actually cringe around, actually, people [00:42:30] standing up and standing in solidarity with us and our rights. That's the only barrier that I see to why this hasn't happened already. We have disability, We have seniors, We have youth, We have Children, We have women, We have ethnic communities. We have Pacific people and we have who's missing. It's us and the reason those other agencies exist. I totally agree that there's a risk of abdicating responsibility and we don't want other [00:43:00] agencies to abdicate responsibility. How you get around that is you have a really strong plan that has accountability ascribed to those other departments. But you recognise and support them, delivering on by having a centre of expertise and a point of connection to our communities that our communities can push for pressure and change across the ministries from one entry point rather than having to deal with so many [00:43:30] agencies and different people. And we see this in health. One of the reasons at the moment that that we haven't made more progress around, um, gender affirming health care even though the budget money was put there was that there have been so much staff turnover in that team that they haven't been able to deliver it. If you'd had a centre of expertise, there would have been people to be able to fill in that gap and provide the support around it to keep progress happening. We have a cross [00:44:00] party group of politicians who are not ministers at the moment, includes national and includes labour, and it includes the greens and we are the ones who are talking to the ministers and asking them, What have you done? What's happened? This is what we're hearing from the communities. We have to fit that in amongst all of our other work and they're not accountable to us. They are accountable to their ministers. The ministers are what drive [00:44:30] change are the people who drive change not a lovely, very well meaning and, um, intentional group of MP S. So this is my belief when I'm so deeply frustrated at Our lack of progress is we've got to try something else and it requires intentional focus. And that is what this proposal is meant to address. Thank you, everyone. Um, the next question is, uh, with the ever [00:45:00] growing number of anti trans organisations. What is your political party prepared to do for the trans community to create protections and support to allow us to thrive? I always find it bizarre that these anti trans groups use freedom of speech. Like somehow freedom of speech is an excuse for them to just be an asshole to everyone. Freedom of speech does not mean we have to listen to you saying hateful stuff. It does not mean that public venues are obligated to give it to you. And it does not mean that you go crying [00:45:30] to the act party and they give you Parliament for free. Or at least that should. So there is a bill that has gone before Parliament. So the first thing I want to acknowledge is that I'm a cisgender male. I do not know for certain what it's like to be a member of the trans community. I only know from conversations with my friends. What I do know is that there's a bill that's been before Parliament. That bill was about being able to change the gender on your birth certificate by statutory [00:46:00] declaration. And that bill has been held up by one of these anti trans groups, the same one who are friends with David Seymour, and that's not OK that Bill needs to go through. It needs to pass to make it easier for these people to be able to engage in our society with who they are. So the The day after my candidacy got announced as a member of the Labour [00:46:30] Party, Uh um, last month I got an email from an anti trans group and the the gloss of my fun celebration was was worn off after that. And, um, Pete, this anti trans groups that write to me get a very short answer from me, which is that I, um, stand for trans people to be included in all parts of our society. And there's no engaging with all these endless little arguments, um, about XY and Z. I think, um, uh, Labour also supports [00:47:00] the, um uh, birth deaths and marriages bill that would allow trans people to, um, uh, uh choose their gender on their official documents. Um, and the, uh um, you would have heard, uh, Labour MP. Um uh, Lewis Wall and the media, just in the last week, supporting the right for trans women to play rugby, uh, as well, um, in a just she [00:47:30] did, didn't she? I'm pretty sure she did. To. For trans women to be included in the in the world, um, to be able to play by their identified gender and and rugby II, I Sorry, I can't hear you. But, I, I would be happy to have a conversation with you afterwards to the the the Fusion. Pretty mixed. Thank you. Thank you for that. I think the, um the point. Um I would There's another point I'd like to make about trans rights. Which, [00:48:00] um, I think, uh, goes back to an issue that was raised by the first transgender MP Georgina Baer, who, um, was a labour MP, which was, uh, back. Um, in 2004, we, um uh we about to, um, try and produce legislation to include, um uh, uh as a prohibited grounds for discrimination gender identity and the Human Rights Act. And at that time, the advice that the Human Rights Commission gave [00:48:30] us was that that was unnecessary because it could be included under sexual identity. Uh, and and therefore we didn't need to change the Human Rights Act. I think that, um it is apparent to us in labour that, uh, times have moved on and there are these acute issues that's evident in the question of anti trans groups. That means we need to reconsider that option. Uh, and that's an area which we are currently working on. [00:49:00] I'll keep my answer pretty simple. Uh, to this one. I start from the position that trans rights are human rights. Trans women are women, trans men are men, and the law should treat all of those groups with the rights that they deserve. And we should, as lawmakers strive to ensure that they have a quality of opportunity, a quality of access to services, and that where their rights are transgressed upon that the people perpetrating that, uh, face the full force of the law. [00:49:30] Yeah, I've had my own unfortunate run-ins with, um some of these groups, and I was very involved in the abortion law reform. Um, campaign and I wrote an article where I referred to pregnant people and I. I expected the, um, uh, blowback from anti abortion people. But I was actually really shocked at the, um the like wall [00:50:00] of hate I got from people who I am told I'm not allowed to call tips, but, uh, So I experienced my first ever Twitter pile on and was bombarded with graphic images and had to anyway, very a very small number of very motivated people really obsessed with what other people keep in their pants are are [00:50:30] just really making life very difficult for for a lot of people and screw them. Don't vote for me. I don't want you. Um, So what I'm saying is, uh, protections for, uh, for transgender and non-binary people are incredibly important. Um, Top has a policy for having a written constitution. We think it's probably gonna take, um, maybe 20 years for us to have [00:51:00] all the discussions that will go into it. But I'm very confident that at the end of the day, protections for all genders will make it into a constitution for a um I also think there are a few things like really concrete things we can do for transgender and non-binary people. I think that the stats, New Zealand consultation at the moment, if you haven't seen it about how to record data on gender, I think it was really great. I think they handled it. Really? Um, really Well. And if you haven't submitted, um, please, [00:51:30] please go and do that. Um, and the other thing I think that would make a real difference is, uh, you know, I have two little girls, and so much of their lives is so gendered whether we want it to be or not. And I just see no reason why we have to force small Children into two boxes constantly there, their school uniforms, [00:52:00] their their toilets, their clothing, their toys. You know, there is just no, they Is that for me? Sorry. Um, so enough of that. Enough of that. We only need two boxes for everything I believe. Um, so, yeah, it's It's been pretty ugly. Right? Um, and I I loved Troy's [00:52:30] intro. Um, so just Yeah, um, in terms of specific policies and things for the greens that we, um we've been on this journey for a really long time in terms of trying to, um, progress the rights. Um, because of the trans and non-binary people, it's over a decade ago that the Human Rights Commission wrote their report to be who I am that outlined the really unacceptable and, you [00:53:00] know, gut wrenching levels of discrimination that are experienced by trans and non-binary people in this country. And we haven't seen enough action. Um, and that's why we accepted the petition. Um, that led to the proposed change around the birth deaths and marriages and why we received the petition to try and push for change around, um, to access to health care. Um, the next steps is we clearly need the change [00:53:30] around birth dec and marriages with the amendments, um, that are needed to, um, actually fix it because the, um suggested amendments at the moment aren't right for intersex people, and that has to get fixed. Um, and we also need to ensure that it works for, um and that we're putting the right provisions in for migrants who are coming in to be able to change their identity documents to be safe in their communities because that's a real problem at the moment. [00:54:00] We also need to change the Human Rights Act. Um, because the Crown law advice is just not working in terms of reality, and it needs to be around gender, identity, gender expression and sex characteristics and that they need to be prohibited grounds of discrimination and make that just super clear so that we all know. And we need to amend our hate speech legislation to ensure that it is covering our communities because [00:54:30] the existence of diversity cannot and should not be argued with. And this is also a argument because existed well before colonisation, and these really discriminatory laws that sought to keep people in boxes and locked down were brought in by the colonial regime, [00:55:00] James.

IRN: 3335
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_voices_of_aotearoa_new_zealand_tony_nightingale.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004598
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089892
TITLE: Tony Nightingale - Rainbow Voices of Aotearoa New Zealand
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Tony Nightingale
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Parliament buildings; Rainbow Room
DATE: 3 April 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Rainbow Room, Parliament buildings, Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Thinking back, I've been a public servant most of my life, and in my first six months of working in Wellington, I was working for what was then the Department of Trade and Industry, and came to Parliament Buildings when the anti petition was being handed over, and I've got very strong memories of, one, the fact that we were locked out because we were on the other side of the fence. The fact that this huge semi military [00:00:30] process was being enacted in front of us where all these very neatly uniformed men basically were handing over the petition in these huge boxes. And the overwhelming sort of response of Fran Wilde, which was just fabulous. She was standing on, I think, a ladder or something. She was certainly standing up high, conducting us all singing the National Anthem to try and give a counter to this very jingoistic kind of procession that was almost sort of, [00:01:00] dare I say it, sort of neo fascist rally that was going on in front of us. And being amazed that the whole law reform process had come to this kind of a conflict, which was, if you like, an embodiment of what had been going on for the previous two years. Um, And, yeah, this was one high point for us, in a funny sort of way, it was highly motivating and I think it [00:01:30] pushed a lot of us towards lobbying and some of the marches that went on at that time. Um, and then sort of culminated in law reform going through by the skin of its teeth and with the anti discrimination section pulled out. That's one thing I would really like to see acknowledged because, I mean, Fran got through. 16 year age limit for, um, the criminal acts. But what didn't happen at that time was the anti discrimination work. And that was done by Catherine O'Regan. [00:02:00] And we'll remain eternally grateful for her because Liberal causes, I think, for somebody like Fran was appropriate because she was a Labour politician. For Catherine O'Regan, it made her no friends, and it made her, I think, probably quite a few political enemies. But she pushed through anyway, and she pushed through anti discrimination for HIV positive men, and that was just brilliant. So yeah, that was a couple of my experiences. Um, I was also here when the Destiny Church did their march, [00:02:30] Enough is Enough. Um.. It was a bizarre display. Again, it's that whole thing of, yeah, the use of black and uniforms to try and show an almost militaristic opposition to, um, anything that's different, really, I suppose. It was a very, very strange sort of event to actually watch. Um, Brian Tamaki did his thing. And all these young men again, dressed in these black uniforms. Um, [00:03:00] many of which, you know, they were quite beautiful in a kind of creepy sort of way. It was, it was a very strange position, um, position to be in, just sitting watching that actually happening. Being in the House when legislation is passed, um, that's a wonderful experience when you get that third vote, which is, you know, often quite token at one level in the sense that you hope it's going to go through, um, particularly on conscience votes. It's been good, um, not just for homosexual reform, [00:03:30] but also for prostitution reform. That was, a lot of the people that were involved in that were also involved in that latest sort of push as well. I think having a room where there's a physical embodiment of, I won't say necessarily the Crown's commitment to diversity, LGBTIQAP plus rights is really powerful. Um, it's a physical embodiment. I wish this room [00:04:00] well. I hope it's here forever. And I hope that it's.. Refurbished and reinforced over coming generations because I think the symbolism of it being actually in Parliament buildings is really, really strong and really positive.

IRN: 3337
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_voices_of_aotearoa_new_zealand_tim_barnett.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004596
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089890
TITLE: Tim Barnett - Rainbow Voices of Aotearoa New Zealand
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Tim Barnett
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Parliament buildings; Rainbow Room; Tim Barnett
DATE: 4 April 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Rainbow Room, Parliament buildings, Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm Tim Barnett. I was a Labour Member of Parliament, uh, in, uh, in this place from 1996 to 2008. Uh, when I was elected, I was the only, uh, openly, uh, Rainbow Member of that Parliament, the 96 to 99 Parliament. I followed on from Chris Carter, who, uh, was, uh, came out as an MP in 1997. 90, uh, 3 94, and also from Marilyn Waring many [00:00:30] years before, um, probably I was the first MP to be elected having been reported in the media, um, before being elected as being gay. So that would be, um, that my part of the jigsaw. Um, so the first three years it was pretty lonely and then life changed, uh, quite rapidly, particularly when Chris came back in Georgina Bay. Came in as well, and since then the rainbow presence in Parliament has really increased, uh, [00:01:00] immensely. Um, my main political legacy, I guess, was around the, the Prostitution Reform Bill, where I was the sponsor of the bill. And obviously, uh, as somebody who's gay, that, that story was.. Pretty closely aligned to me with the way that people are marginalized because of their, their sexuality or their sexual behavior. So, so to me is, uh, it would have been pretty hard for a straight. male member of parliament to sponsor that for me, it was maybe that bit easier. [00:01:30] Um, so we went through that journey, and at the same time the journey around civil unions began. And I, uh, initially, really at the behest of the then Prime Minister, Helen Clark, began a process of talking with rainbow communities around what kind of model was wanted. And pretty clearly there were Two possibilities emerged. One was something that was politically feasible, which [00:02:00] was as close to marriage as we could do, but wouldn't be called marriage. And that was civil union, and that won the debate. The other possibility was to go for marriage. Like things sometimes happen in politics, numbers are pretty important, and it was clear that marriage at that stage.. Globally, it was these two newer concepts who really.. Be able to get through so we went through a interesting debate on that one The majority of the civil union was only I think 10 votes. So it was a pretty [00:02:30] tight debate. We're looking back at it now It's amazing that only a few years later marriage equality went through Overwhelmingly, so it showed that speed with which things were happening. Um, new zealand was the first country outside europe to pass legislation giving equal status to to same sex relationships and that was the real effect of The other, the issue, other issue about the civil union is that at the same time as that went through, there was separate legislation [00:03:00] giving equal status to, uh, marriage, to civil union relationships, and to.. De facto relationships, which arguably was the more radical the two pieces of legislation because it delivered on the, the principles of the Human Rights Act that said there shouldn't be discrimination on the basis of relationship status. So that went through and then the last three years of labor being labor leading government, which was [00:03:30] 2005 to 2008. The issues were a bit quieter, but I think a number of us who were leaving Parliament at that time were quite keen to get some kind of legacy to mark the journey, not just of those few years, but really the journey of the the 20 or so years before that, where this place has helped to really forge leadership, um, in public policy for principles, which are now pretty [00:04:00] mainstream. So, uh, having the last three years, I was a senior whip. And so I got to be more within the committees and bodies in parliament that actually make. the decisions about the institution. Margaret Wilson, who was a speaker at the time, was a good colleague of mine. And, as I looked around the corridor where the Rainbow Room is, I saw a room, uh, celebrating Māori parliamentarians, a room celebrating women, [00:04:30] celebrating Pacific Island people and being in Parliament. A room was set up to celebrate those from other ethnic communities, minority ethnic communities. It seemed to me that there was a, an obvious gap in that. Um, and that was obviously people who identified as lesbian, gay, transgender, queer, rainbow. So, that was the conversation that began. And, um, As sometimes happens in politics, sheer force of argument can prevail.[00:05:00] Um, Margaret Wilson checked and I think found out that essentially it was up to the Speaker to denote these rooms. We identified this as being an appropriate place in the same corridor to continue the pattern of rooms and that's where, that's where it all started. So, not too long before of power in 2008, there was a, an event. In the rainbow room, uh, led by the speaker involving all the former parliamentarians, current [00:05:30] parliamentarians who identified as. lesbian or gay, other parliamentarians who were supportive. People from the wider community including, um, the, um, the Māori performing, lesbian, gay performing network. And out of that, the Rainbow Room was launched. At the time it was launched, we had a bit of a history panel, we had some works of art. Um, since then, uh, I think it's [00:06:00] true to say it's kind of plateaued. Um, what's inspiring now is it seems to be a real move on to give the Rainbow Room a bit of a refresh and a re and a rehab, which it undoubtedly needed. Over the years it acquired, um, I think some more presentation material about, um, about how some of the big political battles were won, uh, and it also had some works of art. Um, one of which I think is behind me now, which, [00:06:30] uh, uh, which denote the room very clearly. There's a couple of, um, two or three observations, actually. One was that, um, after I left Parliament, I wrote a, an email to all the, the new MPs in that 2008 intake from Parliament, who I knew identified as lesbian or gay, to say It's your role to carry on preserving this taonga and develop it, and it's great to know that, uh, the room survived, because [00:07:00] sometimes these things don't. Um, secondly, I remember my, uh, former colleague Charles Chabelle, um, who continued through into that parliament, uh, always, when he was at a select committee meeting in this room, who are not. that's supportive of what the room stood for, just saying it was really great to be in a meeting in the room that was there to celebrate him and his [00:07:30] communities. And uh, I've also noticed as I've wandered through parliament in the years since I left, that at least some of the guides actually do denote the rainbow room, which I think would be quite a Surprise to many visitors. We, we all, we could never find any, um, example of another parliament that actually had a room which was dedicated to celebrating, uh, L G B T I Q communities, like, uh, like this place, and they're linked through to the parliament and to the wider political [00:08:00] activity. I was elected towards the end of 96. As I said, I was the only, uh, openly lesbian, gay, transgender MP at the time. Um, and there was a long discussion after that led by. Winston Peters deciding what to do, and eventually he went with National. So Labour, by that time we were near Christmas, so the maiden speeches were early the next year. And an MP from another party in his maiden speech decided to use homophobia to try and get, um, get some people laughing. [00:08:30] So I had a go at him in my maiden speech, which, uh, managed to grab a few headlines. Um, the, the Evening Post at the time said that, uh, that every New Zealand institution needed their They're, they're gay pom, and I was the gay pom in the New Zealand Parliament. Never quite understood that, but it was, it was their sense of humour, I guess. Um, as I said earlier, it was a pretty lonely, uh, road, uh, at least initially, uh, to be the only person out in a, in a place like this. I was pretty comfortable in [00:09:00] myself and in my electorate, but here often the issues were tougher and it felt a bit more lonely. Brian Tamaki, uh, launched an attack on Georgina and I, probably about 98, 99, where he preached with, um, four meter high pictures of us, um, behind him. One about Georgina, one about me. He accused Georgina of being a murderer because she'd killed the.. Um, killed the man inside her to create a woman. And [00:09:30] he accused me of, um, uh, Well, he told me the factual side of my life. I'd emigrated with an Anglican priest as a partner to New Zealand and I'd brought with me ideas about lesbian and gay rights that were very un New Zealand. And that I was here to propagate them. And of course the audience were cheering and booing as only destiny can do. So that was, that was an interesting one. Uh, at the same time, because I was quite an [00:10:00] unusual figure, even in the Christchurch environment, there was a lot of, uh, There were death threats and there were faeces in the post and a whole lot of the stuff, which hopefully is less likely to happen now. None of which, I mean my staff protected me from most of that, but it was obviously not pleasant. And then when Chris and Georgina came back in and we got into government, the story of getting a bit more awareness in government of, uh, of the issues became apparent. The initial one was [00:10:30] that, uh, National had tried to remove government from the Human Rights Act so that we would be in a situation where government wouldn't, uh, be controlled by the principles of the Act and, and I'd been the human rights spokesperson at the time, so we got that piece of legislation through and then my, my focus was very much on the prostitution reform for.. And then the civil union debate started. That was, I chaired the select committee dealing with that. Uh, and we had, uh, [00:11:00] 250 submitters. We had to have people in pairs, who were either both for or both against. And five minutes each, and then, uh, five minutes of questions and on to the next one. So that was a, that was pretty intense. And in fact, even committee members who opposed. Civil Union were quite shocked by the, the, the emotion and the spirit which came out in a lot of the submissions against, and the quite personal stuff about me because I happen to be there. Uh, there was an attempt by [00:11:30] Some MPs removed me as chair because I had a, um, conflict of interest, as they thought, because the legislation was about creating a new status and it would affect everyone, so, um, we managed to defeat that argument. Um, so that, that debate and, and the activity around it was probably politically a lot calmer than, um, the prostitution law reform, and, and the vote was a little.. More certain at the end, but of course in the, [00:12:00] during, um, the Civil Union Bill we had, um, Brian Tamaki and 5, 000 marchers heading up to Parliament and, and the rainbow flag was flown outside until security noticed and that was quite a, um, that was quite an occasion. Um, a gay couple, uh, I know, um, who are together to this day actually met, uh, as counter protesters on that day, so there's always a.. bit of a romantic spinoff to these horrible events. Uh, but that was, that kind of, I think, really helped [00:12:30] people to realise this was a hearts and minds debate, and I think probably the civil union debate helped to water down the opposition to marriage equality when, when that came through. Um, apart from that, I mean, I think uh, New Zealand's alignment internationally with lesbian and gay rights, and I think the.. of Parliament and the more progressive forces here with what's right in the world. I think those forces became [00:13:00] more apparent as time went on. I remember with Margaret Wilson and the cross party delegation visiting Russia in 2007 for a conference. And at the New Zealand Embassy in Moscow we invited the lesbian and gay activists who since been arrested many times there. So that kind of alignment of, of, with what is right in, in this world is important. And I think this parliament has been a place that has been prepared to lead on occasions. And [00:13:30] that's a, that's a welcome, a welcome relief. Oh, I think every, any room needs a refresh after a while. I mean, this place has now been here 10, 11 years. And I think, And I think, uh, I think it's survival is a key thing, so great to see it, uh, surviving as an institution. And I think now these issues are even more central, and I think our human rights approach is more settled than it was ten years ago. So this room getting [00:14:00] refreshed, having the legislation on display, and also bringing in those elements of artwork, and now for the first time actually deciding to have the images. of the MPs who, uh, would identify with, uh, this, this room or what it represents. I think all that is, uh, immensely exciting. So congratulations to those who've had the, the vision and the energy to make that happen.

IRN: 3344
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_voices_of_aotearoa_new_zealand_tabby_besley.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004592
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089886
TITLE: Tabby Besley - Rainbow Voices of Aotearoa New Zealand
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Tabby Besley
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Parliament buildings; Rainbow Room; Tabby Besley
DATE: 15 April 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Rainbow Room, Parliament buildings, Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Kia ora, I'm Tabby Besley, the Managing Director of Inside Out Koʻaro. So Inside Out, we're a national charity based here in Wellington and our vision is to support young people of minority sexualities, genders and sex characteristics to have a sense of safety and belonging in their schools and communities. So we do that through all sorts of different ways and do a lot of work particularly trying to make schools and the education space safer for rainbow young people. I think in New Zealand we're really privileged and really lucky, um, that we have had legislation passed and kind of our community has got the rights that we do have today and we're in [00:00:30] the place that we are. At the same time there is still so so much, um, to do and particularly working with our young people we see that, um, face hand that a lot of this Um, legislative stuff hasn't yet trickled down to make an impact. Um, and that some of those other things, kind of like, like resourcing and attitude changes that are what needs to happen to make our rainbow young people safer. So Inside Out has, um, lots of different projects to support rainbow young people. Uh, so a big part of our work is around supporting schools to be safer for rainbow young people. So that involves putting out, um, resources and information and [00:01:00] staff training to try and make our schools more inclusive. Um, we have a few.. So one is out on the shelves, which is about creating rainbow visibility, um, in school and public libraries and kind of providing, um, rainbow young people with the opportunity to find stories that reflect their identities and create this kind of visibility, um, in our schools by putting up a display or a public library. Um, we also, uh, run a big. Um, youth hui every year called SHIFT, which brings together, um, young people from all around New Zealand for four days to stay on marae, um, [00:01:30] yeah, connect both with our, yeah, culture of being here in Aotearoa and with our rainbow identities, uh, take part in workshops and, um, yeah, ideally kind of learn some new skills and, um, confidence and resilience to take back to their own communities, and most importantly, probably the connections and friendships with other people, and some of those will last, um, a lifetime, which is amazing. I think it's incredibly important, um, that we're supporting our rainbow young people and particularly that our, um, Parliament and Government is, is doing that and setting an example from the kind of top leadership of, um, our society, if you like. [00:02:00] Um, rainbow young people are still having such a hard time in New Zealand. We know that rainbow young people are five times more likely to attempt suicide. Um, they have really significant kind of depressive and anxiety symptoms. A lot of them are having a really hard time at home or at school or, um, even just kind of.. walking out in the world. Um, it's a really hard time to be a rainbow young person still in Aotearoa and there's a long way to go. So it's so important that our, um, leaders and our legislation and our parliament is, um, showing that it's there to support that group [00:02:30] of young people. And I think, um, we've made some really awesome steps towards that through some of the legislation that's passed. Um, it means, makes such a difference to have our rainbow MPs in our parliament that can, um, you know, Say to young people that it's okay to be who you are and that you can still be in these leadership positions, but there is so much more to do, particularly kind of resourcing the organisations in our communities that are giving support, um, to young people, and often it's still kind of that ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, um, when ideally everyone would just be [00:03:00] happy and living who they are and just dealing with normal challenges, not having to deal with homophobia, biphobia and transphobia. Super important.

IRN: 3334
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_voices_of_aotearoa_new_zealand_marilyn_waring.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004602
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089896
TITLE: Marilyn Waring - Rainbow Voices of Aotearoa New Zealand
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Marilyn Waring
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Parliament buildings; Rainbow Room
DATE: 7 March 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Rainbow Room, Parliament buildings, Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: In 1974, Ven Young, who was an opposition member of Parliament, was going to introduce a homosexual law reform bill. The Prime Minister at the time, Norman Kirk, said he couldn't support it because he couldn't support anything that wasn't normal behaviour. I read that headline of the Dominion in the Victoria University Library, uh, in the Dominion, yes, in the Dominion, and I got up from the [00:00:30] table and I walked straight down to Lampton Quay and joined the National Party. Uh, I then, subsequently, I was offered a job in the Opposition Research Unit. So that was National and Opposition between 1972 and 1975. One of my colleagues there was a gay man called Robin Stewart. And Robin wrote.. The National Party [00:01:00] justice policy for the 1975 election, and that included the commitment to the Human Rights Act. At the time, while I was in Parliament from 75 to 84, we were never able to expand the grounds to include sexual orientation. That came later, and that was led by my successor. In the city, in the seat of Y Park, Catherine O'Regan [00:01:30] in 1976, when I was 23 years old and a back bench member of the national government, I was outed, uh, by truth newspaper who ran the story for something like six weeks. Um, I expected, frankly, to be run out of town. Uh, the response from New Zealanders was extraordinary. [00:02:00] Absolutely extraordinary. They were so angry that this had been picked on, that a young woman had been picked on, in a context where, prior to this, pretty much MP's private lives had no space or place in this kind of public announcement. When the newspaper published, I was called to the Prime Minister's office. And Muldoon said to [00:02:30] me, We've shut the whole party down. There will be no statement from any party official in any part of the country. You are to remain silent. I will remain silent. If you don't talk and I don't talk, the story will go away. Any question about your remaining a member of parliament will be in the hands of the National Party [00:03:00] in your constituency. In 1977 there was a change of boundaries. My constituency of Raglan disappeared entirely and no majority part of Raglan went to any of the new electorates. So I was, um, invited to stand for the Waipa electorate. It included about 40 percent of my old constituency. [00:03:30] And of course I was challenged by three men who described themselves all as upright family Christian men. I defeated them on the first ballot. So it was fairly obvious that even the rural conservative area of Waipa had no complaints about my work and very little judgment. Um, in 78 to [00:04:00] 81, I was the only woman in the National Party Caucus. From 75 to 1981, I was the only woman Member of Parliament from the North Island. Uh, I left, or I announced that I was resigning in March 1984, and subsequently an early election was called by the Prime Minister. Which was a very good idea. And yes, I played a part in that. [00:04:30] Fortunately, Catherine O'Regan, who had been my electoral agent, none of them were paid for in those days. Those of us who had research offices or electoral agents were paying them out of our salaries. Um, and Catherine worked for me for all of that period. In 1977, she'd become the first woman elected to the Waipa County Council. And in 1983, when I told her I was going to [00:05:00] retire, Um, I said, you know, I'm letting you know really early in case you'd like to run for it. And she did. And she won. What that meant.. When she came into Parliament though, and especially when she became the Associate Minister of Health, and particularly, uh, um, worried about, um, transmission of diseases. It [00:05:30] meant that when the government introduced an amendment to the Human Rights Commission Act, she did something really extraordinary. As a minister, in that government, she moved an amendment to expand the grounds of discrimination, to include sexual orientation, and those who were suffering from [00:06:00] HIV and AIDS and other, uh, transmittable notifiable diseases. And she would have had no issues whatsoever in Waipa in doing that. So it seemed unusual for someone coming from, um, what was seen as a provincial rural constituency to advocate in those areas, but she was always supported and very proud of that work.[00:06:30] .

IRN: 3339
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_voices_of_aotearoa_new_zealand_louisa_wall.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004599
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089893
TITLE: Louisa Wall - Rainbow Voices of Aotearoa New Zealand
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Louisa Wall
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Louisa Wall; Parliament buildings; Rainbow Room
DATE: 20 March 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Rainbow Room, Parliament buildings, Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Kia ora mai no tatou, I'm the MP for Manurewa, and I'm here in this amazing Rainbow Room, uh, in the New Zealand Parliament. Uh, and this room is incredibly special and important to me because it signifies the history of Rainbow members of Parliament, uh, and it also signifies our legislative history. The work that we've done as a collective, uh, of individuals. Some of us LGBTI, some of us allies, but all of us fighting [00:00:30] for the same cause, which is to ensure that LGBT peoples initially weren't criminals. So it did really start with homosexual law reform. And then as we've progressed through the years, we've had civil unions, we've had marriage equality, but we've also had pioneers and leaders within our LGB community. Uh, that are here on the walls of this special room. Uh, and for me it really is about legacy. So, it was my pleasure to, uh, as [00:01:00] a backbench MP, propose, uh, a marriage equality legislation here in Aotearoa New Zealand. So it was a very simple amendment to our Marriage Act. Uh, and essentially all it did was insert a definition of marriage to say that marriage is between two people regardless of their sex. sexual orientation and gender identity. That definition, therefore, meant that the state had to provide a marriage license to any two [00:01:30] consenting adults so that they could get married. Really simple, actually. And, to be quite honest, that ended up being the entire debate from my perspective. Uh, we managed to highlight that the state had been discriminating and it really started because of two women, uh, Jules Jocelyn and Jenny Rowan, who in 1996, and this was 10 years past homosexual law reform, uh, with two other lesbian couples tried to get a license.[00:02:00] They were denied the right to get a licence because they were two women. The fact that our Marriage Act had never explicitly said that marriage was only between a man and a woman was deemed throughout courts to be incongruent with the legislation because of the time and the interpretation up to that point. We were asked as Parliament to address the issue and so my proposition and my leadership of the marriage [00:02:30] equality legislation really came because of the New Zealand Government in our courts, But actually went to international jurisdictions to say that fundamentally their human rights were being breached. So passing the marriage equality legislation, uh, was incredibly special because one of the first things we did was establish a cross party working group. And this gives me an opportunity to acknowledge Kevin Haig, [00:03:00] uh, who was then a member of the Green Party, a very active member of our LGBT community. And also, uh, Tau Henare, who at that time, uh, was in his last term of Parliament. And Tau had actually led, uh, the IP group, uh, IPU group that year. So the Inter Parliamentary Union, uh, is, uh, a union of parliamentarians who meet all around the world every six months. And, uh, I, uh, was chosen, uh, with Jan Logie to [00:03:30] go with Tau Henare. To Uganda, they sent us to Uganda A because I was promoting, uh, marriage equality, but b uh, in Uganda at the same time. They had a bill, it was colloquially called Kill the Gays. It essentially wanted to, uh, enhance the penalties for being L G B T in their country. From seven years in prison to death. So my caucus explicitly [00:04:00] sent me to send a message. And so Tau then became part of a group that also included other LGBT members of parliament, Marion Street, Grant Robertson, Charles Chevelle, Jan Logie, but it also included allies, people like Nikki Kaye, and also at that time, Jamie Lee Ross. And so I really want to acknowledge, uh, all of Parliament who came together at that time with, uh, [00:04:30] external allies. We also had others, uh, those based in Wellington and Hamilton and Auckland, throughout the country who established marriage equality, uh, committees in each of those, uh, cities. And then we had towns who were actively engaged. I remember doing debates in Masterton. Uh, and having debates in Cambridge, uh, at the school organized by one of the students. So, it was a very special time, uh, because it enabled young people to engage in a debate. that was relevant [00:05:00] to them. And I think for me, uh, when I looked historically at our context, when our 33 years post homosexual law reform, uh, at that time we were just getting ready to celebrate 30 years. And so for older New Zealanders, they'd grown up thinking that LGBT people were criminals, uh, because we were prosecuted, our, our gay men, and they were sent to prison. And so from their perspective, uh, allowing these criminals to marry was something that, uh, They couldn't comprehend, uh, [00:05:30] but young people, uh, who talked to their grandparents, to talk to older people about the relevance of marriage to them, and the fact that they wanted one day to find somebody, uh, that they loved, uh, and that they wanted to join a marriage with, I think helped shift, uh, the whole debate, uh, because what it then became, uh, about was. Uh, how important marriage is, uh, when two people want to solidify their love, uh, their ability to create a family, uh, and from our collective [00:06:00] perspectives, I think we all would agree that families actually are the heart, uh, of every society. And so extending that right to all New Zealanders, uh, consenting adults who want to engage, uh, in the marriage process, uh, I think for us has been a beautiful thing. Experiences I'd like to share, uh, as an out, uh, LGBT member of the New Zealand Parliament. Uh, from my perspective of our Parliament, our Parliament is incredibly inclusive. Uh, I can [00:06:30] say, uh, that I feel respected, uh, that I feel valued, uh, that I have never experienced anything Uh, that I would classify as homophobic. Uh, where I've been explicitly excluded because, um, I'm a lesbian. Takatāpui. Uh, internationally, uh, because I've had experiences in Uganda, I've been to Quito again, uh, which is in Ecuador as part of the inter parliamentary union. I can say that I have experienced.. immense [00:07:00] hostility. We proposed an emergency item in Quito. We wanted to discuss LGBT rights. I think the fact that New Zealand even took that agenda item to the conference and I was able to speak on it. caused outrage. It was transferred to the Democracy and Human Rights Committee. And I have to say that the African nations, the Arab nations were so incensed that security had to be called. So I can hand on heart say I've experienced [00:07:30] hostility and the fact that people came up to me afterwards and said, why are you advocating for them? Those people that evil, they shouldn't exist. And I was thinking, do they not know they're talking about me? Um, so I have, uh, experienced that hatred, that homophobia, uh, that permeates some of our religions, uh, some of, uh, different cultures and societies around the world. Uh, and so I feel incredibly blessed to [00:08:00] live in a country now, uh, where we can fly our rainbow fags, uh, not only in this room, but also, uh, on our parliament forecourt. And I never take for granted, uh, the fact that I live in a country, uh, that I believe, uh, does practice human rights. And it practices human rights by, uh, ensuring that all of us are able to be who we are. Uh, and that's the tenet of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. We are all born free and equal in dignity and rights. I think the [00:08:30] shift that we've seen in terms of legislative reform, obviously it started with homosexual law reform, with civil unions, with relationship recognition, with marriage equality, we still have challenges, don't get me wrong, in terms of our trans and intersex and non binary Gender identity is a big issue at the moment and the ability of people to self define and to change birth certificates. But this [00:09:00] year, I have been to two LGBT events in rural New Zealand. I've been to Tauranga and I've been to Whanganui. Their first ever rainbow events. And the one in Tauranga, particularly, just struck a chord. It was beautiful. The community came together. And these were LGBT people who decided they wanted to put something on. But the young people who came, the families who came, the fact that it meant so much to them, the mayor was there, one of the councillors was there. [00:09:30] I think a lot of people weren't sure how it was going to be. Who was going to come? Would there be any animosity? But it was one of the most beautiful events I've ever been to. And for me, the symbolism of our rural communities engaging in pride events and celebrating the LGBT community is something that we all should be incredibly proud of. Because we have come from a history where people have had to hide. No, they've had to hide the fact that they love another human being, but that human being was of the same sex, so there was something wrong with them.[00:10:00] Um, now we live in an open, tolerant, uh, embracing community. I mean, we still have issues. We have behaviours that we have to change. Uh, we still have people who will remember and have experienced criminalisation. But I think, uh, by doing that, what we're doing is eradicating homophobia, transphobia, uh, racism. All these issues that actually, I believe, uh, need to be eradicated. Uh, because if we don't, it allows people.. [00:10:30] Uh, to hate others and to preach that hate and so I agree the best form, uh, of engagement in that situation is visibility and being proud, uh, and enabling our community to come together at Pride events. Oh, look, I'm incredibly grateful that, uh, we've had, um, an upgrading of the room. I do want to acknowledge that the origins of this room. come from Tim Barnett and also Speaker Margaret Wilson. It was the two of them that [00:11:00] dedicated this room to our rainbow community, so I think it's incredibly important, uh, to acknowledge that legacy. Uh, but also, uh, people like Winton Holmes and the team here at Parliament who undertook themselves to upgrade our room, uh, and make it shine and be bright and be a place where people will come and enjoy the space and also a place where we can tell our stories. Our stories are incredibly important and so I feel incredibly humbled to [00:11:30] add my voice of welcome to our New Zealand Parliament's Rainbow Room.

IRN: 3342
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_voices_of_aotearoa_new_zealand_kevin_haunui.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004597
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089891
TITLE: Kevin Haunui - Rainbow Voices of Aotearoa New Zealand
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Kevin Haunui
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Kevin Haunui; Parliament buildings; Rainbow Room
DATE: 3 April 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Rainbow Room, Parliament buildings, Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Kia ora, my name is Kevin Honui. I'm a Deputy Chair of Te Whanau Whanau Trust, a community organisation for Takatapui. Uh, based in Wellington, but, uh, involved with, uh, national politics involving Takatāpui. Perhaps I can begin my little conversation talking about the Rainbow Room here, first of all. And, in Parliament, uh, I was here at the opening of that room, and for me [00:00:30] it signalled a.. Further step in the legitimization, if you like, of, of, uh, same sex, uh, people. Homosexuals, lesbians, gay, bisexuals, trans, intersex, and all variations. To me, it was another legitimate step by society in terms of recognizing, uh, sexuality and gender in all its different [00:01:00] forms. And I think that the, uh, it expressed the hope in me that we were moving forward as a society. And I see that has happened in the almost ten years that this room has been, uh, has been open. The progress that has been made in terms of our younger generations, I think, has really, [00:01:30] um, allowed the space. for that journey to continue, um, particularly for our younger generations. And also, it's a place of pride, I believe, for the older generations in knowing that that space was created, uh, and this room is one of those spaces that reflects, reflects that. So speaking as, uh, from a Takatāpui perspective, And [00:02:00] I believe that the, uh, where we are today has, has moved to the point where we are not dealing with single issue, uh, matters such as either being gay or being lesbian or being bisexual. I believe that, um, we are, from a Takatāpui perspective, looking more at the collective. Um, role [00:02:30] that we have and our association and connection, uh, with our Māori society. So, in recent times we have been, uh, I have heard the terms, you know, tōku reo, tōku oho, oho, which is a reflection that our voice is our awakening, uh, and that means that, um, our voice. is part of [00:03:00] the wider collective voice of Māori. So, if we as Takatāpui, uh, are not well, then Māori is not well. If Māori are not well, then we as Takatāpui are not well. So, two are indivisible. And to me, that also shows our connection to our Pasifika whānau. Um, because when they talk about their, the issues that concern them, from the many islands across the [00:03:30] Pacific, And even across to, uh, when we think of Australia as being part of that whole Oceania complex, they are talking in a way about their connection to their cultures and that they are one and the same. So the, for me, from a Takatāpui perspective, uh, my voice, being a Takatāpui voice, is a Māori voice, and a Māori voice is a Takatāpui voice. So, [00:04:00] again, I emphasize the, the two are absolutely connected and one does not go without the other. So, the Rainbow Room and the progress that has been made since it was opened, I think, reflects the fact that, uh, we have moved towards the space where LGBTI rights, or rainbow rights. are human rights, not just gay rights. There's been [00:04:30] rights and so forth, but they're human rights. And I think that's where I believe, uh, from a cultural perspective, we fit in, uh, much better under that, uh, mantra than to look at it just as sexuality and gender and so forth. In fact, we're part of our, our culture. And the culture is part of us, irrespective of how our sexuality or gender, [00:05:00] or how we present ourselves physically in terms of sexual characteristics. However that's played out, it doesn't matter. Um, because without our culture, we are, we are almost like floating in the sea without any things to anchor onto. So that's how I see. the progress that's been made and the direction that we are going in terms of, uh, LGBTI rights or [00:05:30] human rights at the end of the day, um, with regards to New Zealand and this country.

IRN: 3343
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_voices_of_aotearoa_new_zealand_judy_obrien.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004594
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089888
TITLE: Judy OBrien - Rainbow Voices of Aotearoa New Zealand
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Judy O'Brien
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Judy O'Brien; Parliament buildings; Rainbow Room
DATE: 8 April 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Rainbow Room, Parliament buildings, Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi, I'm Judy O'Brien and I'm a trustee of the board for Outer Spaces. Outer Spaces is an organisation that supports three different youth initiatives in Wellington. So our mission is to support gender and sexually diverse young people through community building, education, development and advocacy. And we do this through our three groups which are Schools Out, Transform and Naming New Zealand. So, Schools Out [00:00:30] is an organisation that supports school aged people from about 12 to 18, and that runs after school programs for queer young people to get together and get to know each other and talk about the things that matter to them and what might be affecting them at school. Transform is a group that supports gender diverse and gender questioning young people aged from about 14 to 30, and that runs in the evening. We address all sorts of topics with that group, from changing your name and [00:01:00] gender marker to sexuality, education, consent, and healthy relationships. And then Naming New Zealand is a charity that runs to support young people to change their identity documents. And so their name and their gender marker, and their passports, their birth certificates, and their name change process as well. So recently we ran a law clinic for the young people in Schools Out and Transform. to have Naming New Zealand come in and talk to them about how they can change their documents so that [00:01:30] everything's in line for them and they don't have to deal with unnecessary discrimination in the process. So our organization's vision is a universal acceptance of body, identity, and sexuality diversity. And to achieve that, we run these groups in the greater Wellington region. Those groups have been supported by a range of different organizations and people. We've had a lot to do with Other groups in Wellington [00:02:00] like Inside Out, Te Whanau Whanau, and Rainbow Youth in Auckland, we have quite a strong dialogue with them as well. So one of the major issues facing young people in schools at the moment is bullying and safety. We know that gender diverse students don't feel safe in school at a rate of about and we know that one in five gender and sexually diverse students experience bullying on a weekly basis. So, New Zealand schools are there to provide a safe space for our young [00:02:30] people and that's what organisations like Outer Spaces and Inside Out are trying to ensure. A room like the Rainbow Room tells our young people that they're welcome and that they're celebrated in the halls of power. Ten years ago, some of our young people didn't even know that they could survive to the age they're at today. And now, with a room like the Rainbow Room, saying to them that, you can become a member of parliament, uh, it helps to support their goals and aspirations, and let [00:03:00] them know that this is a society that appreciates and recognises them. So Outer Spaces would support something like the Rainbow Room, because it says to our membership, it says to our community, that LGBTQI plus people are welcome and celebrated here and that the halls of power give space to those of the rainbow community. So when I was young, uh, the only visible transgender woman in New Zealand was Georgina Beyer and she was a hero to [00:03:30] me and The only real person that I could look up to as a young trans person. And now I get to enjoy being an adult in New Zealand and know that the path was cleared for me by someone who was really powerful and inspirational. Um, there's been a huge change in perception of gender diverse people and sexually diverse people in New Zealand and having that recognized by Parliament is really important. We have huge rates of youth [00:04:00] suicide in New Zealand and a lot of those young people are sexually and gender questioning young people and if we can say to them that they're loved and that they're safe and that our legislation recognizes them and their rights then we can pave a brighter way for all of them just as Georgina paved the way for us.

IRN: 3338
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_voices_of_aotearoa_new_zealand_georgina_beyer.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004601
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089895
TITLE: Georgina Beyer - Rainbow Voices of Aotearoa New Zealand
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Georgina Beyer
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Georgina Beyer; Parliament buildings; Rainbow Room
DATE: 7 March 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Rainbow Room, Parliament buildings, Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello, I'm Georgina Beyer. Um, I was elected to Parliament in 1999 after having served two terms as Mayor of Carterton in the Wairarapa. I was the world's first out transsexual to have been elected to a Parliament and indeed to have been elected as a Mayor for that matter. My arrival in Parliament was, um, taken with some surprise, I guess. My electorate was a rural, conservative seat. [00:00:30] Wairarapa, one of the largest general seats in the country at the time. And so while it was remarkable.. Uh, that a transsexual had been able to be, um, elected as a constituent CMP. I think the story really lies behind those who supported me getting into Parliament, and that is the people of Wairarapa. I was very proud of that. I had no idea at the time, uh, that I was, uh, considered to be the world's first out transsexual. I added the [00:01:00] out bit myself at a United Nations Human Rights Conference in, uh, Montreal, um, a while later. Because I decided that I needed to pay homage, uh, to those who may have been transgender. But could never have been out and if they had served perhaps in parliaments or whatever before so that was just my little Acknowledgement I think to those who may not have been able to be as out as I was able to be. I have often been credited with having been a [00:01:30] trailblazer and I will accept that as being true Because as the first out transsexual to serve in a parliament, I had no mentors. I had, I had to navigate my way myself. Uh, through the mire of political life, I guess. Yes, I had the support of colleagues and the support of caucus, and that we were serving in government was a huge, um, advantage. Two matters came up in our first term, um, that [00:02:00] really made me dive into the thick of it. Uh, the first one being, uh, what is now the Civil Union Act. Uh, the second one being what is now known as the Prostitution Reform Act. With civil unions, of course I was going to help, uh, with the parliamentary campaign at least, which was led by, uh, the sponsor of the bill, um, Tim Barnett, who was my Labour colleague and later to be a senior government whip, uh, for the Labour Party. Um, [00:02:30] outside of Parliament, the campaign was led.. By a lady we now know as Dame Catherine Healy, and she had spent 30 years, I guess, working on prostitution reform when it finally came to pass, but with civil unions. I guess I acquitted myself very well when we had what has now come to be known as the Enough is Enough March, led by the Tamaki. Um, when the 8, [00:03:00] 000 arrived at Parliament to protest against civil unions, um, it was a dark day, I feel. And the rest of the country seemed to feel so too. The imagery they presented that day, um, was, uh, reminiscent. of scenes from Nazi Germany and general public were horrified, frankly. I would defend their [00:03:30] right to protest, absolutely. Um, but I stood on those steps for the two or three hours that they held their rally in front of parliaments holding the rainbow flag. joined by other members of Parliament, Sue Bradford, Sue Kedgley, Tim Barnett, Chris Carter, various others came out to support me as I stared them down from the steps of Parliament. Um, at one point I just lost it. We had 150. approximately of our [00:04:00] supporters, um, who were pro the civil union bill and they had been surrounded, uh, by the 8, 000 Destiny Church people and they were abused, they were jostled, they were shoved and I could see all of this happening from the steps. When they finished their rally, I wanted to immediately run straight down to them. They were all gathered around the Seddon statue in front. Parliament, uh, but such was the abuse that I received that my minder, for want of a better term, Ramon [00:04:30] Maniapoto, said, hey, hey, hey, come back behind the barriers, which I did. At that point, I was so angry, I suppose, I marched across the forecourt of Parliament yelling out loudly, why do you hate us? so much. What is this? What is this that you're teaching your children this hatred towards us? It's not right, and words to that effect. I was yelling, which I seemed like a screaming banshee, because they had a sound system the [00:05:00] Rolling Stones would have been proud of. So I was trying to shout over that so that they might hear me. That ended up on the news that night, and many of our rainbow people around the country. Went to hallelujah, our voices there to stare down this great adversity we were facing from these people. [00:05:30] One of the proudest moments of my parliamentary life I have to say, sorry for getting a bit emotional about it, but it was significant and of course civil unions came to pass. And then it was followed, what, less than 10 years later by Louisa Wall's presentation of marriage equality to the country. And considering the venal debate that happened over civil unions throughout the country, marriage equality [00:06:00] managed to slip through, uh, pretty well supported from within the parliament, and more importantly, uh, from a majority of New Zealanders. You see, with patience, and perseverance, the country by and large will come on board because they can see all we want is equality. We are of no harm to anyone else. We just want to enrich our own lives with equality. And it has been for the [00:06:30] better of New Zealand that we have been able to make positive contributions to our country and to live lives that are far more liberated than when I was young. Well done, New Zealand. One thing I'd like to say, just to add on, um, to that about civil unions. I guess it's probably been mentioned that John Banks, the Honourable John Banks, had been quite an opponent to anything that was going to [00:07:00] give liberty to the rainbow community in this country for many years. I happened to end up being mayor of his hometown, Carterton. Um, in order to illustrate how over time people can soften their attitudes, I never thought I would see the day when John Banks would vote in favour of marriage equality. That Lockwood Smith would give one of the greatest [00:07:30] gay speeches in the house in his, uh, third reading speech, uh, for marriage equality. It went global. Good God, I think he ended up on Ellen DeGeneres. So you see, patience is a virtue. Over time people will come to see that we are not the scum of the earth people think we are. We are ordinary New Zealanders with a bit of a difference who want to be positive contributors to our society and live fulfilled [00:08:00] lives. I've mentioned one of the other pieces of legislation I became involved with, uh, in Parliament, um, was the Prostitution Reform Act. Again, another bill that was sponsored, uh, by Tim Barnett. Um, with my history, my colourful history, of course I had once been a sex worker and worked in the, um, sex industry for a period of time in my early life, my late [00:08:30] teens into my mid twenties. So when this bill came up, of course I was probably the only authority in the house on the sex industry at the time, and I think I mentioned so in my first reading speech. The purpose of the Prostitution Reform Act wasn't so much to condone prostitution, but it was more of a, um, health and safety issue. Um, it was about human rights. Um, it [00:09:00] was about putting regulation into an area that exists in the twilight world. And once you put the disinfectant of light upon it, you tend to, um, diminish, uh, the criminal elements that generally would run. Um, it gave rights to sex workers and to clients. And, um, this provides more safety, I think. Um, I stand by the Prostitution Reform Act, which was world leading, [00:09:30] um, in its day. And, uh, there was a lot of critics, critiques about it. But we are, what, 10, 15 years down the track from that, um, legislation coming to pass. And, um, It still sits on the statute books and is now probably tacitly entrenched. And I think that it has turned out to be a very, um, good piece of legislation to deal with what some would consider a rather unsavoury matter. But you cannot ignore such [00:10:00] matters. People's lives are at risk, health and safety is at risk, HIV, AIDS, blood, uh, you know, um, transmitted diseases, all of those kinds of things that can be involved. Uh, as a result of people engaging in the, um, sex industry. So I'm, I still stand by that piece of legislation. It was a very divided, bitter, um, conscience vote, uh, debate. And it passed by the slimmest of margins possible. One abstention. [00:10:30] And the bill passed. So it was a far, far closer, um, run matter. When, uh, voting through the third reading, uh, than it was, for example, civil unions. And, um, I think that this country can be proud of, um, facing up to some harsh realities. Uh, regarding this matter and, um, that we have done a pretty good job of, uh, uh, regulating it now. Um, amongst many duties I [00:11:00] had while I was in Parliament and other than my responsibilities as a constituency MP for the wider upper, Um, I was also, uh, chairperson of the Social Services, uh, Select Committee for about three years actually, which is quite a long time to be chairing, um, a Select Committee, uh, like that. Um, quite often, um, we would, uh, um, hold our select committee meetings in the Rainbow Room here at Parliament. Our home room, for want of a better term, was the one in the suffrage room, actually, further down the corridor. But [00:11:30] quite often, we would, uh, uh, convene in here, in the Rainbow Room. Um, also, I was a member of the Primary Production Select Committee, and this.. was its home select committee room, uh, normally. So that was odd. I can remember when, um, Margaret Wilson, the right honourable Margaret Wilson, who was, uh, Speaker of the Parliament, and it was her that initiated a rainbow room to be established, of course, along with the lobbying help of Tim Barnett. [00:12:00] And, um, And I can remember it was quite low key that this was going to become the Rainbow Room. They didn't want to upset the cart in that proceeding with, uh, any members, say, of the opposition, um, becoming just to be nasty about it and lodge, uh, an opposition to it, um, uh, being established. So it sort of slipped into the house. Because, you see, we have a women's suffrage room. We have a Pacific Island room. We have a Maori Affairs room. [00:12:30] And, uh, and various others, so it seemed quite appropriate, uh, given the proud history we have in this country over rainbow issues, um, that we should have a rainbow room, a representation for our community, um, in a, uh, solid bricks and mortar, um, sense, uh, here at Parliament. And here it is.

IRN: 3341
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_voices_of_aotearoa_new_zealand_georgia_andrews.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004595
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089889
TITLE: Georgia Andrews - Rainbow Voices of Aotearoa New Zealand
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Georgia Andrews
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Georgia Andrews; Parliament buildings; Rainbow Room
DATE: 4 April 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Rainbow Room, Parliament buildings, Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Kia ora, my name's Georgia Andrews. I am the chairperson of Intersex Awareness New Zealand and project manage intersex youth Aotearoa. Both roles are based here in Wellington. I was diagnosed with an intersex variation when I was 16 years old. Uh, intersex is an umbrella term to describe people born with variations of sex characteristics, which don't clearly fit the binary definition of a male or female body. [00:00:30] When I was diagnosed, I was told by my doctors not to tell anybody and my family were told to keep it a secret. I realized much later in my journey that doctors had actually kept my intersex test results from me and had known longer than I had that I was intersex. So I lived many years in shame with the idea in my head from doctors that if I told anyone about my diagnosis that I would become a [00:01:00] radical flag waving activist and would be ousted by the local community. I was also told that If I moved back into the local area, I would become depressed, and so this is when I was at boarding school. So I thought that I would never be able to return to a life with my family. That was a very hard concept to hold, but the most difficult thing was I was told I would never meet anyone else like me. That I was the only person in the world like me who was intersex. [00:01:30] So I was lost, I felt alienated, and I thought, what am I going to do to change this? I was holding anger and I couldn't carry that anger anymore. I reached out to international intersex networks and it took four years before I connected with my first intersex partner. person here in Aotearoa and that was through Connections in America. So it's, that was back in 2000, starting my journey in [00:02:00] 2009. We moved for 10 and look at things that have shifted and things that have stayed the same. There is still a huge amount of shame and secrecy around. And not only intersex bodies, but the identities of those people that don't sit in a heteronormative framework of male and female straight identity. For me, as a lesbian woman, I also hold a narrative of [00:02:30] being intersex and lesbian, and that holds many challenges. An exciting thing in 2019 is the development that has happened across international intersex networks, specifically in terms of the outreach that our young people have to community. In 2009, if I was to search intersex online, I'd be lucky if I got four or five search results. Now you'll get 20, 000 search results, so things are shifting. But on the negative [00:03:00] side of things, internationally there is still shame associated with diagnosis, and families are told, even in 2019 with young infants, that they should not share their intersex story, that they are the only people, and there's no community to support them. I.. I feel very privileged to be intersex because I have been able to connect with family all around the world, my intersex family. I have intersex friends, very close friends, in every continent of the world, which is [00:03:30] amazing. It's allowed me to travel, it has built.. me into a career where I am able to support young people who are going through trials and tribulations, but showing them that there are positive ways forward when they're told that there sometimes aren't. And that's really fulfilling to see that people don't have to wait to be connected to community. They can be proud of their identities as an intersex person or as a member of the [00:04:00] LGBTQIA plus community. I also think that It's really exciting to see the level of rainbow representation, particularly here at Parliament. I was part of a hostropu for the ILGA World Conference. We had people here from well over a hundred different countries who were astounded to see not only rainbow flags flying outside Parliament, but MPs here [00:04:30] proudly saying that they were members of the rainbow community. I think, you know, it's easy to take for granted the privileged position we are here, we hold here in Aotearoa, where our MPs are able to support us in that way. They are a real inspiration for our youth, and I think that our youth movement is the way forward. We have youth who are inspired to take authority over their decision making process, youth who are willing to stand up and be [00:05:00] heard. We are able to embrace that diversity as a country and it's something to be honoured.

IRN: 3333
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_voices_of_aotearoa_new_zealand_fran_wilde.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004590
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089884
TITLE: Fran Wilde - Rainbow Voices of Aotearoa New Zealand
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Fran Wilde
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Parliament buildings; Rainbow Room
DATE: 11 June 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Rainbow Room, Parliament buildings, Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So I was elected to Wellington Central in 1981, uh, for Labour and I went into opposition because the National Party with Muldoon as the Prime Minister was still in government at that stage. I was a young solo mother with three primary school aged children. And that was a bit different at the time. I don't think anyone had tried that before. Um, but I, it made me a little bit aware of being slightly marginal in a big institution. [00:00:30] Uh, during the campaign, the gay community members had lobbied me as all candidates, where did we stand on gay law reform, and of course I said I supported it. And after the election, a group came back to me and said, look, we need a bill introduced by somebody who will actually.. promote it and run a campaign. You can't just introduce a bill into parliament and let it go because it will die. So I thought about it for a very small time and said, yes, I would do it. I have to say, I did [00:01:00] not understand then just how. huge and how terrible it would be, and what a big impact it would have on my life and the life of my family. But I've not regretted doing it, obviously, but it was much bigger than I thought. So the first bill that was drafted was called the Equality Bill, that didn't even get to first base, and after the 1984 election, I introduced what was then called the Homosexual Law Reform Bill. Two parts. Part one was decriminalisation. Part two was an amendment [00:01:30] to the Human Rights Act. Uh, it was a very bitter campaign. It was fought not just in Parliament, but on the streets, and right around in workplaces, etc, etc. The famous petition, uh, has now gone down in, um, infamous history in New Zealand. Supposedly the biggest petition ever. In fact, many of the, uh, that many of the signatures were either fraudulent, we went through every single one, [00:02:00] or we found that people had, people said I was forced to sign, or they wrote to me, many people wrote and said look I didn't want to sign but I was in a group of people in. pretty much I had to. There's a lot of peer pressure. The Fundamentalist Christians ran a big campaign. We believed there was money and campaign material and in fact, speakers coming from the US and we had to learn a lot from the US about how to fight. That rhetoric as well. Um, [00:02:30] essentially we were running a campaign for the hearts and minds of New Zealanders. We felt if we educated them about the reality of being gay and what it was not. Uh, then they would give their mps permission to vote for the bill When it was first introduced, we had, we thought, 19 mps who would vote for a third reading. So not a show, but sporting agreement. In those days, everybody voted for the [00:03:00] first, for the introduction, which was great. That allowed us to get it onto the table in the house and to start talking about it publicly. Um, The campaign was huge and it was very difficult. We ran a massive campaign right through the country in every city and the small towns as well. I did a lot of travel and talk back with some of the most vicious opponents sitting. sharing a microphone with Norm Jones while he, when he said if his son were gay, [00:03:30] he'd put him in a mental institution. I mean, it was, it was pretty ghastly. There was a lot of hate mail. There were death threats. The police were very good. Um, and, uh, generally there was some. civil disorder about this bill. Uh, but there were wonderful moments as well and I do remember when the petition was being heard in the select committee and I had to come up for air at one stage, it was very foul what was being said and I went up to my office and just as I arrived, a messenger arrived with a [00:04:00] huge bunch of spring bulbs, beautiful perfume, and I thought, ah, that's lovely. So it was just somebody I didn't know, I think, in the gay community who'd sent me these flowers, and of course, they were very supportive. The real heroes were, um, the men who came out during the campaign, because visibility was really important for us. Uh, we had to prove to New Zealand that Gay men were not a threat, they were just [00:04:30] the person they worked with, the person next door, their colleague, um, or their son, or in some cases, sadly, their husband. So, many men came out, and of course they took a huge risk because they were criminal. And had the bill not succeeded, that would have been the most terrible blight on their lives. forever. The other thing was we knew that if the fundamentalist Christians succeeded in voting, getting this bill voted down, they would in fact then move on [00:05:00] to other progressive social legislation as well. And clearly they had women's rights in there. in their sites as well. Um, AIDS had just arrived and we knew we had to have a way of, um, getting gay men to go to health clinics and, and clearly they weren't going to go if they were criminal. So there were a whole lot of reasons for getting it through. Uh, in the end, MPs voted down the part two, the human rights part, which was promoted later and Catherine O'Regan [00:05:30] did a, have to acknowledge her for what she did on that. And that was a kind of insurance policy. So MPs could say, well, I voted down the human rights, but I felt I had to vote for decriminalization. The other interesting thing was that the, the people opposed to it, um, decided in the committee stages of the bill in the house that, If it had an age of 16, it would be too radical for some MPs, because many had said to me, I'll vote for it if it were 18. We had [00:06:00] decided to stick to 16, and when they voted with us for 16, that was a really interesting moment because the antis thought we would lose the legislation, but I knew that the ones who had said I want 18 wouldn't risk. voting down the bill just because of the age of consent. So we actually got it through as we wanted it, that decriminalization part. So it was, it was great. It wasn't a huge majority. Um, there was a lot of tactical [00:06:30] voting and the whole time it progressed through the house was pretty torrid. Um, Terrible things said to and about all sorts of people. But we got it through and of course the sky didn't fall in. Western civilization didn't collapse. The world just went on. Um, and for me, it was, um, I did a number of other things that I'm very proud of when I was in Parliament. But this is probably the one bit of legislation that has had the most impact on the [00:07:00] most people. So, I'm still very proud that I was able to do it.

IRN: 3332
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_voices_of_aotearoa_new_zealand_elizabeth_kerekere.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004593
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089887
TITLE: Elizabeth Kerekere - Rainbow Voices of Aotearoa New Zealand
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Elizabeth Kerekere
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Parliament buildings; Rainbow Room
DATE: 9 April 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Rainbow Room, Parliament buildings, Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Kia ora. I'm Elizabeth Kerekere. I'm the founder and chair of Te Whanau Whanau Trust. We advocate for takapapui to tell our stories, build our communities, and leave a legacy. I come from Gisborne. I'm Whanau a Kai, Ngai Tamanuhiri, Mahaki and Whanau a Kai. In our culture, we have beings called tipua, who can change gender [00:00:30] and form. And it is my belief, and through my research, and I guess the way I look at the world, is that I believe that our trans, non binary, and intersex magical beings, who can change gender and form, and they have a capacity in them, uh, that makes them significant. in our culture, but amongst us in our community. I think for those of us who are cisgendered, it's [00:01:00] really important, uh, to use whatever privilege we have to make sure that we continue to create space for and give voice to, uh, To all of our, to all of our whānau. When Europeans first came to our country, they found a people that were far more sex positive than they were comfortable with. They had come through from Tahiti, so I think they had some ideas of what to expect. However, with Māori, [00:01:30] they found us more muscular, more lewd, and They were not comfortable with what appeared to be a very relaxed attitude to same sex sexuality. And so immediately, immediately, they took steps to try and criminalise it, to, uh, suppress it. In fact, they worked really, really hard to pretend [00:02:00] that it never existed at all. It has taken many years of research from people such as Ngahuia Te Awakotuku and myself to unearth the evidence that proves, uh, both in the European record and the documentation we have from the diaries of sailors, from the records of whalers, of missionaries, so we know that this was true, we know that this was [00:02:30] real. But we also know this from our Māori narratives. We know this from our songs. Uh, we have evidence of this in our carvings. It is tempting, uh, for some people to look at incidences and evidence of, uh, male same sex sexual activity and call that, say that our ancestors were gay, or that women together were lesbian. But it's not appropriate to use those terms for our ancestors. [00:03:00] They lived a very, very different life to us. And so we use the word takatāpui. It's a traditional word which we have, uh, we've embraced. It means intimate companion of the same sex. But we've embraced that to include all of us, all Māori, with diverse genders, sexualities and sex characteristics. And that includes lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans, intersex and queer, but actually many other identities. [00:03:30] Uh, that people may not even have names for just yet. But we believe. probably in that fluidity, uh, in that ability to change, that actually they're reflecting how our ancestors used to be. A big part, I believe, of decolonization is to go back and find those stories. To know that us coming from a culture where [00:04:00] whakapapa, where our genealogy and the stories of our ancestors are really, really critical to who we are now. That so it is with our ancestors who are takatāpui. And so we honour them. We acknowledge that. Many of them ended up living in a world where they couldn't be themselves, where they were no longer accepted. Uh, but that many of our whānau actually did shelter them, did [00:04:30] screen them from the prejudice that came with the colonizers. We know that once they decriminalized homosexuality in, uh, in Britain, they brought that over here, started actively criminalizing our people. And we know from the court records, though, that these activities were nothing we had a problem with. And so we know that in the Māori world, we didn't have a punishment for that activity. [00:05:00] And of course the focus at that time was about male activity. As we say in England, lesbians and the activity of women being invisible. But we know, and we honour those ancestors because we are their descendants. And right up to this place, a place of power in our country, our ancestors have led us. During those [00:05:30] periods of colonization, and of course in the handbook that says this is how you subjugate an indigenous people in their own land, there are many steps that need to be taken. And the suppression of sexuality and gender is one of them. But those things flow into other parts of our lives. And so the suppression of women, the suppression of children, all of those things, uh, connect together. To say that any, anything that was [00:06:00] different, anything that wasn't bound by, I guess the heteropatriarchal society that they brought to us, uh, it had to be dominated. It had to be changed, it had to be squashed. We have, as Takatāpui over the years, dealt with that in many, many ways. Uh, some of us have gone into hiding, some of us have lived the heterosexual life that society has wanted for us, and that might not have ever felt [00:06:30] real. Those of us who did not affirm the gender they were assigned at birth, uh, have lived in a, in a life that wasn't true to who they actually were. And over the years, people have, and I believe Māori in particular, have just fought against that and said, you know, society, you may beat me, you may put me in jail, but I am still going to be myself. And something about [00:07:00] that attitude, that warrior instinct, that survival instinct that said, I'm going to take this because no matter what, I need to be who I am. And we acknowledge all of those people who could not do that, who could not live that life or who took their own life because they could not be who they are. I believe that's been happening for generations. Um, it's certainly true now. And I think as Takatāpui in today's society, it's [00:07:30] really important then for us to see When we claim a term like that, it's not just about our sexuality or gender or our sex characteristics. It's about our commitment and our embracing of our own culture, our own spirituality. No matter the color of our skin. No matter how much we can speak our own language or how much we're connected with our family. Because the fact is.. Many of us were estranged [00:08:00] from our family and therefore from our culture because we're not accepted. And so for those of us who are accepted, it's really important for us to keep helping people to make those connections back. Sometimes it's a real connection back to family, but sometimes it's just that heart that says that you know where you belong and where you come from and where is the land that you stand on. There are [00:08:30] organisations such as my own that advocate specifically for Takatāpui. There are many LGBTIQ organisations throughout this country that look after, that acknowledge or support. Uh, but many more of our whanau are just out there living our lives, , and we might not run into them. We might see them at the gallery, we might see them when we are playing sports. Uh, but we are everywhere. [00:09:00] We are in every whanau in this country, and I believe that the more visible we are. Just living our ordinary lives, which are, of course, completely extraordinary. But, the more we can just get on with being who we are. I believe in the parades, I believe in visibility, and having the celebration of our community. [00:09:30] But actually, your day to day life, that should be something we could take for granted. And so many of us cannot. And so the rest of us must continue to fight, must continue to advocate, must continue to open doors, particularly for our young people. Te Whanawhana and Laggans, uh, two of the boards that I'm on, were instrumental in the creation of this original Rainbow Room and we were here for the opening.[00:10:00] It was quite exciting because even though it was a small group and it's inside, kind of in the middle of Parliament, it just felt so auspicious that we were creating something that probably doesn't exist in many places in the world. And of course all the staff here that created it, the people who did the research and we had lots and lots of photos and, and stories [00:10:30] about the political histories because at that stage it was very much about homosexual law reform. And it was just the powerful thing of having a space and knowing, uh, that you're represented really. openly and strongly inside this institution. And so I think it's really critical then, for Parliament to be able to [00:11:00] say, we've moved on, actually. A lot has happened, we've still got so much to do. And with the Parliamentary Rainbow Network, and the amazing work that, uh, its leaders do, that, That is something that we can be completely, completely proud of. We have just hosted ILGA World here in New Zealand and Te Whanau Whanau Trust along with Rainbow Youth and ITANS helped host that [00:11:30] incredible event. But to have our whole conference of activists from all over the world come to Parliament and hear.. Lesbian and gay MPs speak to them. That blew people's minds. That is not something that any of them would ever expect to happen in their, most of them, in their countries. But to have that opportunity to be [00:12:00] here, it is the seat of power in our country. And there's something special about knowing that there's a place carved out for you. And I guess for me. I've got my artwork as holding a specific space for Takatāpui. So I created mana, this artwork is called Mana Takatāpui, in my final year of art school at Toihoukura in Gisborne. It was one of Uh, two pieces, this one and Mana [00:12:30] Wahine, which I still have. And this particular piece spoke about, uh, well obviously the mana of, of Takatāpui. About us being able to have our own voice, uh, having our own integrity and the right to stand. And the two major designs in the artwork are the poutama, so representing whakapapa. So again, that's talking about our Takataapui ancestors and [00:13:00] remembering that we have always been here, and we will always be here. And the other design is the kaukau, and that's about leadership. That's about.. Requiring those who are in power to listen to what it is we have to say, but also acknowledge that we are the leaders in our own whānau, in our own lives, uh, but also in our own communities, and that those in power [00:13:30] need to be not just listening to us and deciding what to do, but actually directly collaborating with us, that this is a, uh, That it's more powerful. It will be, change will be more lasting when that change is created with community. And so the way that I've done the design where one pattern is woven and ribbon, and the other pattern is painted, interweaving [00:14:00] of those concepts. Uh, the, The design itself is made of ribbon and the harakeke that on the side is made from harakeke that was planted by my great grandmother at our marae. So I was here when it opened originally and it's really exciting for me that it has been refurbished because so much happens in our community and, and even though change [00:14:30] can sometimes be slow, Over a period of time, you can see the trends, the way that the world is moving, and the creation of this room, the refurbishment of it, uh, the work of the Parliamentary Rainbow Network. It's like we will find ourselves very much on the right side of history.

IRN: 3336
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_voices_of_aotearoa_new_zealand_chris_carter.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004600
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089894
TITLE: Chris Carter - Rainbow Voices of Aotearoa New Zealand
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Chris Carter
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Chris Carter; Parliament buildings; Rainbow Room
DATE: 7 March 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Rainbow Room, Parliament buildings, Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi, my name's Chris Carter. I was honored to be the first out gay MP in the New Zealand Parliament. I came out in 1994 when I was a new mp, uh, elected for the constituency of atu, a very working class district in West Oakland. Over the, uh, 18 years that I served at Parliament, I, uh, saw a huge transition from being the first, which generated a lot of. both praise and, and hostility to, and [00:00:30] a lot of media interest to out gay MPs at the New Zealand Parliament now being, uh, no big deal, just part of recognized as part of the, the normal diversity of New Zealand society. I was really pleased, uh, to be joined later in the Parliament by my very good friend, Georgina Beyer, New Zealand's first and the world's first transsexual MP, uh, and also my colleague, Tim Barnett, the MP for Christchurch Central. The three of us were a formidable rainbow team [00:01:00] here at Parliament and we still had a number of very reactionary and conservative MPs, uh, primarily in the opposition, but also a few of them in our own party as well. But over time that changed. You know, John Banks was my greatest critic when I was elected. He was police minister, and I was an opposition MP. Later, I became the minister of local government, and he was the mayor of Auckland. When he left that mayoralty, he said to me, Chris, getting to know you changed my opinion about gays, and it made [00:01:30] me a much more accepting person. And I guess the message for all of us in those comments from John Banks, that by engaging in the community, by not being in the closet, by being out, We shine light on the fact that, that the, that the queer community is everywhere in our country and, uh, and is part of our country. And I think that by engaging with people, You, uh, create, uh, feelings of understanding, uh, feelings of, of brotherhood, sisterhood. And, [00:02:00] uh, I'm really, um, proud, uh, that I was the first out gay MP in our parliament. And I'm really glad there are many more that followed me. You know, there were many incidents in, in my career as an MP, and I'm sure my colleagues Georgina Byer and Tim Barnett and others can also attest to the fact that being out And in being in a prominent position as an MP, it gives you the chance to give the voice to people who felt they had no voice. When I was a government minister, I was the Minister of Housing at the time, I was in [00:02:30] Australia and a young, I met a young New Zealand woman in a bar there and she said to me, You saved my life. And I said, how could that be? I've never met you before. And she said, you were my local MP. You came to my school during prize giving. And I was struggling with my sexuality. I had very religious parents. And I had been considering suicide. And she said, I watched you on the stage all night. And you were the big man. You were being honored by everybody. You were our local MP and you were a government minister. And I thought afterwards, if it's okay for Chris Carter, it's [00:03:00] okay for me. Now that was just one story. But it had a huge impact on me. I thought if all of the hostility that I endured as the first out gay MP, all of that was worth it just for that story alone, where that young woman said that I prevented her from committing suicide. And that affected me a lot and made me very proud.

IRN: 3340
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_voices_of_aotearoa_new_zealand_amy_adams.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004591
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089885
TITLE: Amy Adams - Rainbow Voices of Aotearoa New Zealand
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Amy Adams
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Amy Adams; Parliament buildings; Rainbow Room
DATE: 2 May 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Rainbow Room, Parliament buildings, Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi, I'm Amy Adams, and under the last government I had the privilege of being the Justice Minister. And one of the things I got to do as the Justice Minister that I'm most proud of was create the first ever in New Zealand's history expungement scheme where we could take convictions, historical convictions for homosexual conduct and wipe them from the record as if they'd never occurred. Uh, and as part of creating that law and introducing it to parliament, I gave on behalf of the government and people of [00:00:30] New Zealand, an apology to the men who were unfairly traumatized, uh, and stigmatized over many years for just being who they are. When we look back, uh, through today's lens, there can be no question that it was so wrong to criminalize men for being who they are. And to have the chance to stand in Parliament, uh, and to give that apology and to recognize the tremendous hurt that was caused to those men and their family over many years was a very powerful [00:01:00] moment. Uh, and one that, as I say, I was tremendously proud to, to, to have the, have the privilege to do. And of course the scheme we created is certainly a New Zealand first, if not a world first, in that it goes back, wipes those convictions from the record as if they never occurred. So for the first time, the men, or sometimes the descendants of the men affected, Uh, are able to know that, that they were not criminals, uh, that they don't have to bear the stigma of being judged to be somehow wrong [00:01:30] in the eyes of the law and in the eyes of, of society. I think it was a tremendous, uh, step forward. I think it was a, a powerful way of recognizing the hurt, the damage, uh, the, uh, the horror and the stigma that those men and their families lived with for many years. And it's something that I'm incredibly proud of and, and will be very proud of long after I finish my time in Parliament. What was really powerful for me was to hear the stories of the men and their families. How much it affected them, how much the apology meant to them. And actually [00:02:00] one of the really special things was the way Parliament came together. Giving that speech in the House, hearing the speeches from around the House. It really is Parliament at its best when we can look back and say we do need to recognise that in that case Parliament got it wrong. And that was Parliament acting to do what it could do to undo those wrongs and to right the wrong.

IRN: 3328
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/blood_donation_petition.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004589
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089883
TITLE: Blood Donation Petition
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Troy Mihaka
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; COVID-19 (coronavirus); Canada; Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease; Dunedin; General election; George Floyd; HIV / AIDS; Hepatitis; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Human Rights Act (1993); Human Rights Commission; Luke Redward; Member of Parliament; New Zealand Blood Service; Port Chalmers; The Integrity Party of Aotearoa New Zealand; Troy Mihaka; United Kingdom; United States of America; Wellington; Winston Peters; blood; blood donation; blood donation petition; discrimination; homelessness; homophobia; petition; politics; racism; school; stereotypes
DATE: 8 June 2020
YEAR: 2020
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Troy Mihaka, co-organiser of a blood donation petition, talks about the issues around donating blood in New Zealand for men who have sex with men.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So my name is Troy. Maya. I am originally from Dunedin, but I'm a Wellington in these days, I'm an arts manager up here in Wellington, I'm of descent and at the moment in New Zealand, gay men. And any man who has six with another man has to wait 12 months after having sex That's anal or oral, with or without a condom before they're allowed to donate blood. Why is that? At the moment? Um, the reason that that rule exists is because of the risk of HIV. So in the [00:00:30] 19 eighties, gay men were seen to be the ones who were transmitting HIV in particular in the United States, where it really became prevalent in the 19 eighties. The Reagan administration even termed it as gay man's cancer, which is a pretty negative connotation to put on both the community and also on HIV in New Zealand. We still have this rule in place, and it's a bit of a hangover from that era. Originally, HIV was very difficult to test for, and so at first there was actually a lifetime [00:01:00] ban for any man who had sex with another man. But, uh, about 20 years ago, they reversed that and made it a five year stand down period. And it was actually only 2014 when the law in New Zealand became a 12 month stand down period. 12 months still seems a very long time, given that now you can do a rapid blood test and within a minute know your HIV status. It does, especially when that blood, when it's taken from a person at the blood service, is tested every single [00:01:30] time. Blood. Uh, HIV can take a maximum of three months to show up on a blood test. So 12 months seems far too long. So what's your own experience about, you know, donating blood here in New Zealand? Yeah. So the first time I tried to donate blood was when I was 16 years old. I was in high school. Um, I was at a Catholic school down in Dunedin and we had a blood drive. The blood service came up, tried to encourage a lot of people to donate blood for the first time. And I thought, Yes, absolutely. I want to participate in society [00:02:00] and do something good. So I went down to the blood service with a bunch of my classmates, and it was there that they hand you the list of all of the restrictions. And one of them is men who have sex with other men. At the age of 16, I wasn't ready to admit to myself that that was a thing that I was doing and going to continue doing throughout the rest of my life, let alone admit it in a room full of all of my classmates. So I faked a cold in order to get out of it. What was that like seeing on a piece of paper that [00:02:30] that that actually you weren't entitled to give blood it? I think it was the first time that I had experienced in institutionalised homophobia. I grew up in a relatively small town just outside of Port Chalmers, Uh, just outside of Dunedin, known as Port Chalmers. Um, and in Port Chalmers, Uh, queer community and culture wasn't something that was hugely public. In fact, I grew up in a town where we regarded the only gay man in town as that one person who was gay. It wasn't until I was older that I actually discovered [00:03:00] that there were a lot more queer people around me in Port Chalmers. I just hadn't noticed. And when you were first wanting to give blood at the age of 16, what year was this? Uh, that would have been the year 2000. OK, so we're We're quite away from things like homosexual law reform and even things like the Human Rights Act, which came in in 1993. That's right. So homosexual law reform came in in 1986 when I was two. And it's hard to believe that actually, that happened in my lifetime, that in the time [00:03:30] that I've been alive, it's been both illegal to be gay and now legal to be gay. But we've only just been given the right to marry, and we still have to fight for some specific rights such as this. So one of the things uh, prior to this interview I saw online was on the New Zealand Blood Work Service website, where there was a document from 2014 where it was saying, in some circumstances, it is OK to discriminate against gay and men who [00:04:00] have sex with men, um, to protect basically the the blood supplies, talking about Section three on page seven of that document. I believe I had a read of it, actually, a couple of months ago while I was putting the petition together. And it's an interesting paragraph because it says that it's OK for them to discriminate against gay men because HIV may be detected. But it does then go on to say that the reason they're discriminating is not because of the HIV. It's because the blood service isn't equipped with counselling facilities [00:04:30] if they find a positive result. And when you read that, what I mean, what did you think? Well, it seems strange because so we talk about HIV as if it's the when it comes to blood donation. If it's as if it's the only sexually transmissible infection, there are other viruses that can be transmitted, and HIV has a confirmed case amount of just under 1400 in New Zealand, which isn't actually very high. If you consider that hepatitis C, there [00:05:00] are around 50,000 confirmed cases of now that one we have no statistics for based on sexuality, so I then question using that logic of not having counselling facilities. What happens if they get a positive hepatitis C result and just more, even more simply, I mean, it seems to me that it's discrimination under the Human Rights Act where you can't discriminate on the grounds of sexual orientation. Oh, well, it's a total cop out of them not wanting to deal with [00:05:30] not having the counselling facilities or being able to pass it on to a professional when it comes to the Human Rights Act in New Zealand. We have a slight problem with the Human Rights Act is not a supreme law. In the same way that the United States Constitution is supreme law, they can't pass laws in the US that infringe upon the Constitution. Whereas in New Zealand, the Human Rights Act itself specifically states, in part one of that act that it is possible to create other laws that supersede the New Zealand Bill of Rights [00:06:00] and that if there is a conflict that the New Zealand Bill of Rights will bow to whichever bill has been passed after. So you haven't thought about taking something to say to the Human Rights Commission? I've considered it, but, um, looking into it, it seems that in order to get this through to have it classed as an issue. And to get it before Parliament as a human rights violation, it would have to go through the Attorney General. And to get that high is something that I, on an arts manager's salary cannot afford. [00:06:30] So a petition as a way of getting all of the community involved was simply an easier way to get this public traction. Get this up and running, get this in the media and then get this before the politicians. So why now? Why this petition now? Because, I mean this has this policy has been in place for some time. Well, this policy in its current form has been in place since 2004. And the reason that I've decided to go ahead with this now is directly because of COVID-19. [00:07:00] At the moment, the blood service has been talking about a drop off in blood donations, Um, because people don't want to go out and donate. But in the United States earlier this year, they changed their blood donation laws for queer men to allow them to donate with a three month stand down period. If the United States are able to bring this law in. And that's following suit from behind Canada in 2019, who also made it three months and the United Kingdom in 2017 who did the same thing. And if those three countries from whom we do quite often [00:07:30] take legal and political uh, guidance from are able to pass this regulation, then I don't see why New Zealand can't follow suit. We used to be a country that led the way in terms of liberal rights and equality, but I'm not sure what happened. You you you've mentioned a number of countries and I'm just wondering, Can you give me an overview of what the situation is globally in terms of donating blood well globally and around the world in terms of donating [00:08:00] blood? There are three countries in Europe that have a four month stand down period for queer men. They are the Netherlands, Denmark and France. There are three Anglo Saxon countries that have a three month stand down period. The ones I mentioned, the United Kingdom, Canada and the USA New Zealand, with a 12 month stand down period, is actually currently pretty on par with other countries around the world. Um and one thing that is different between New Zealand and Australia, where the rule is also 12 months, is that in New Zealand, gay [00:08:30] men are able to donate body tissue such as semen or organs, in Australia. Their regulation actually requires a 12 month stand down period from the donation of any body, tissue or blood. So we're already ahead of our neighbours across the Tasman. There are, of course, some countries where homosexuality is still illegal. So we are ahead, I must say of the majority of countries. But it would be nice to be nice to be able to keep that idea of New Zealand being a liberal and inclusive [00:09:00] society. So you you you're saying that in New Zealand we can, um, say gay men can, you know, donate uh, body tissue. So this is obviously a conscious decision to exclude people from donating blood. Why? Why do you think this is a conscious decision here when overseas, um, they've got they've got smaller time frames. The issue that we have in New Zealand is that because the people who are making the rules making these regulations and making these [00:09:30] decisions aren't involved in our particular community. They only see it from the outside, which means when it comes to actually changing these regulations when they're sitting in a room and they've got a big list of them in front of them talking about some, a community in which they're not directly involved isn't going to be the first thing that comes to their mind. They're going to have other things on the table, other issues they need to talk about things which seem more important to them, forgetting that there's a what is it, 6% of the population of New Zealand to whom this is very, very personal. [00:10:00] So have you had any, um, support from other rainbow organisations in New Zealand? Uh, with this petition, Yeah, we have a good amount of media coverage from, um, a couple of the queer magazines around New Zealand, which has been great. A number of the pride agencies around New Zealand have done some promotion on the petition as well, so we've received a good amount of support from the community so far, but more is always needed. And have there been any any organisations or individuals that have come up and said, No, actually, [00:10:30] we need still to have 12 months in New Zealand. Oh, of course, but not from the queer community. So who's been saying, Uh, there's always groups on the outside who are fighting against the rights of queer people? Um, unfortunately, that still exists in New Zealand, and that has still definitely happened. If you are interested in that, I honestly suggest going to our Facebook page either integrity, NZ, Facebook Page or my personal Facebook page and just going through the comments beneath the petition itself. [00:11:00] Some of them are fascinating. Have there been any responses that have surprised you? There have been a lot of responses that have surprised me. There've been a couple from members of the queer community who have said that they weren't aware of not being allowed to donate because they themselves had previously donated. I did remind them that because this regulation already exists, they might want to get in touch with the blood service About that, Um, and I have received a few from people I weren't expecting to see. Positive things from [00:11:30] a couple of, uh, Christian churches have gotten in touch and asked if they could help as well. So what are you trying to achieve with the petition? Well, my goal is to change the regulation, to make sure that gay men are and bisexual men are able to donate blood within New Zealand to change the regulation to actually match the science. If we can test for a virus within three months, then there's no need for a 12 month stand down period. We're also trying to make sure that people recognise that gay men in a monogamous relationship [00:12:00] have almost a zero chance of picking up this virus. You can't get a virus if the virus isn't within one of the two of you already. So gay men in a monogamous relationship shouldn't be treated any different to straight people in a monogamous relationship. Gay men shouldn't be treated different to straight people, ever. So am I right in thinking that at the moment it's like a a blanket deferral for any MS M or gay gay person that has had sex in the last 12 months. [00:12:30] Rather than looking at an individual and looking at their risk, that's correct. Any gay man who has any gay man by a man or any man who has had sex with another man in the past 12 months is unable to donate blood. And that's again whether or not it's oral or anal sex and with or without a condom and just to make it slightly more muddy. Any woman who has had sex with a man who may have had sex with another man in the past 12 months also cannot donate blood. But surely there must be people already doing [00:13:00] this where they don't identify as gay. Don't necessarily, um, acknowledge that they have sex with men but would still don't. And that's where it gets really messy because you're putting people in a really unusual position, where you're asking them to divulge something that they might not necessarily be ready to divulge, even within themselves that this is a thing that they've done. I mean, if a guy a straight man, goes to a bar, has a few drinks, wakes up next to another guy in the morning and doesn't know what happened the night before but [00:13:30] has an appointment to donate blood a few days later. Is that a conversation he's going to want to have putting someone in that position is really unfair. It also is interesting with women who may have been with a man who may have been with another man. I mean, we like to trust our partners, and we like to trust the people around us. But honestly, how much of what someone that you don't know very well has done? Are you actually going to be able to believe or ask? Are there other groups that [00:14:00] are also being deferred for for blood collection in New Zealand? The biggest one which has come up during running this petition is actually probably one of the largest groups who are also prohibited from donating blood in New Zealand. And that's the British. Anyone who has lived in Britain or France between a specific time period has a lifetime ban from donating blood in New Zealand. That's because in the nineties and the eighties there was a prevalence of mad cow disease, which [00:14:30] got into the beef supply that was put throughout supermarkets from British beef, and that beef ended up in both Britain and France, which is why France is included in that band. Unfortunately, there's a virus known as well. The mad cow virus creates a disease in humans known as CJD or Creutzfeld Jacob syndrome. Creutzfeld Jacob syndrome lies dormant inside brain tissue and stem cell tissue, and it can become prevalent in a person's [00:15:00] life at any time. It lies dormant as far as we can tell for their whole life. And at the moment we know that CJD can be transferred via blood within animals. But we're still having conflicting results with blood being transferred between people because HIV can be tested for within three months. And because there's no test for CJD, they are two very different cases. So when did you launch the petition? [00:15:30] Uh, we started the petition two months ago just at the end of level four. So we spent level four Luke, my Co-author and I spent level four making sure we had all of our facts right. Contacting everyone we needed to making sure we had all of the data and information. Level four was the perfect time for us to be able to do that. We had a bit more freedom, and then we launched the petition just at the end of level four. And when we refer to level four, we're talking about the um, COVID-19, uh, pandemic and level four being the state of, um alertness, I guess in in New Zealand, are we Yeah, that's [00:16:00] right. The, um, lockdown period that we had. Have you had any response from the New Zealand blood service? We've had some dealings with the New Zealand blood service. They've been incredibly positive. They've been as supportive as they're allowed to be. And they've pointed us in the correct direction when we've needed it. Um, but of course, uh, they can only do what they would do for any other member of the public who was interested in the way their service runs. Did you get anything from them that would suggest that they [00:16:30] are looking at changing the the time frames? Nothing concrete. But I know that the blood review committee is was intending to meet this month, but has been deferred because of the COVID-19 lockdown restrictions. Hopefully, they'll be meeting in a couple of months, and we are aiming to get this petition on the table in front of them. And have you spoken with any current, uh, rainbow MP S about this issue? Not just rainbow ones. I've spoken with a number of MP S about this issue to make sure that it's across as [00:17:00] many people as I can possibly get in contact with. I have not been quiet about this petition, that's for sure, I. I guess I'm thinking about the rainbow politicians just to see what? What do they think of this? Are they in support of this? What? What? What are they doing again? They've been in as in support as they're allowed to be of a member of the public. Um, I would love if the Rainbow Politicians and even some of the non rainbow politicians could come out and say, please support this petition from Troy, and I would love for that to happen. I do understand the politics [00:17:30] and why? That hasn't, though. So what is the, um, journey from here? So you you complete the petition. Um, Then do you present it to Parliament or or basically, what will happen from here is we'll keep the petition running right up until the day we have to press print on the amount of signatures that we've got. By that point, I'm aiming to have at least 4000 signatures on this petition. We're currently at 1600. So it's going great. Once the petition is printed, we'll then take it before now we're waiting on advice as to whether or not it's best to deliver it to the House [00:18:00] of Representatives themselves, directly to the Health Committee or to the Blood Review Committee Which of the three of those will be best to take it to? And as soon as we know the answer to exactly which direction we're supposed to go, we will take that as soon as we are able to. But we're gonna get this to wherever it needs to be to make sure this regulation gets changed. So obviously for you, this has been something quite personal. I mean, from a 16 year old who couldn't donate blood to to now. [00:18:30] I mean, talk to me a wee bit about that, because obviously you need a passion to drive something like this. It's been one of those things that's been on the back of my mind most of my life. So when I was 16 years old, I was also heavily involved in the Youth Council down in Dunedin, um, and and spend a lot of time working in politics throughout most of my life, and this has been something that I have quietly been nagging about in the background wherever I am. So being able to lead this petition myself and try to finally get it [00:19:00] through has been amazing, actually, seeing the amount of response that has come from the community actually seeing how much this has affected other people and actually getting to talk to other people about their experiences. Many people out there have had similar experiences to the one I had at the age of 16. One of the comments I saw online was in having this kind of deferral. Um, you basically kind of create a negative stereotype for people about, um, the the words I saw were dirty [00:19:30] blood. You know, gay men have dirty blood. I like to think of it as being the term unclean, and I only like to use the term unclean because that's what they use again. Catholic educated. That's what they used in the Bible to describe things that they considered as quote unquote dirty. So we have the stigma of gay blood being unclean blood. But there's more than just that. The stigma that this regulation creates is also the the idea that HIV is still a gay man's disease [00:20:00] and we're seeing a rise in the amount of heterosexuals in New Zealand who have HIV as well as around the world. It also creates a negative stigma around HIV itself. Many people who have been confirmed with HIV live long and normal lives, thanks to the medication and the progress that has happened out there. So ultimately, are you looking for New Zealand to follow other countries, So doing a three month deferral? Ultimately, [00:20:30] what I'd like to see is those in a monogamous relationship being able to donate immediately if straight people cans and gay people should be able to. I would love to be able to see gay men donate immediately in the same way that straight men are able to. But I am aware that it can take up to three months for this virus to show up and that this virus is still seen as an issue. Which means while I don't like it, I'm willing to accept that there might have to be a three month stand down period for those who are not in a monogamous [00:21:00] relationship. You mentioned, uh earlier just about, uh, being in the in the alert levels and COVID-19 Are you aware of any, um, policy around people donating that have tested positive for COVID-19? None that I'm aware of. But I imagine it comes under the under the exact same regulation that any virus is included under. So if you are known to have a cold, the flu, anything else, then you are unable to donate [00:21:30] blood at that time. So I imagine I can't see why COVID-19 would be any different. Today is the day where we might learn whether we go down to alert level one here in New Zealand for COVID-19. Um and I'm just wondering, finally, uh, are you able to describe for people in the future what going through these first months of COVID-19 here in New Zealand has been like, OK, so for people in the future, we have a politician [00:22:00] here in New Zealand. His name is Winston Peters, and he described it as a prolonged holiday for all of the people in New Zealand. He's also full of crap. Um, it has been stressful. It's been confusing being told one day that we might be closing the country then two days later, being told we're closing the entire country, everyone go home has been a stressful period. The biggest problem with it has been we didn't know when it would end. We didn't know entirely what was happening, and it's not [00:22:30] because the government weren't sharing the information. They were giving us as much as they could. They didn't know themselves, and that's what made it scary. Is seeing these people who are leading us who are taking us through this whole thing, who also weren't 100% sure when it would end as well. It's been an unusual, weird time. It's been stressful and honestly, I'm looking forward to whatever the world looks like on the other side of this, because while it's been bad [00:23:00] in many ways, we've seen a lot of positive things come out of it. Improvements to the environment, the way that people behave towards each other has changed the way businesses treat people has changed the way the whole world looks is going to be completely different in a year's time. From what it was three months ago. I think one thing for me was that, um it really highlighted and has highlighted the inequalities in New Zealand that you know for a lot of the things [00:23:30] in terms of, say things like poverty. Um, it has really brought those to the fore. Where is prior to this? You know, they they might have been swept under the carpet a bit. I have a few friends who have been essentially homeless for the past couple of years, living from couch to couch, staying with people during the Covid lockdown. It has been an interesting time because they don't have that freedom wherever they were on the day that quarantine was enforced was where they had to stay for the next two months. [00:24:00] And for them it's been stressful because previously they had that freedom to move between friends, to know that they weren't going to get under foot to know that they were among people who cared for them but also weren't encroaching on those people's personal space and watching them go through. This has been upsetting, to say the least, and as much as I would love to be able to help during Level four, we weren't allowed to leave where we [00:24:30] were, and that made it difficult not being able to be the guy I normally would who would just go out and give them a couch or give them a place to stay or maybe even just take them a coffee. Whatever my friends needed been an interesting time. Later this year, we've got the general election and you're standing this year in How do you think Covid will change you as a politician? [00:25:00] It's an interesting question because going into the start of this year, talking about whether or not I'd be standing for Parliament was I was a completely different person. I was a lot more optimistic about the future and then Covid changed my outlook on a number of things. I'm still optimistic and I'm optimistic in a different way. But the view of the poverty that we have seen that's come [00:25:30] out as a result of covid and also the discrimination that has existed during it as well. So as well as being queer. I'm also Maori and watching what my community, both in the South Island and up in Taranaki and in Northland have been going through recently in the media has been eye opening to see that the way that New Zealand views how people like me live their lives as close to their traditional values as they can and how New Zealanders still [00:26:00] view That is different in 2020. We're taught that New Zealand is a liberal, exciting and open, inviting, inclusive society. And then something like this happens. People are at home. All they're doing is watching the news and they start to change. And it's been a strange time a couple of weeks ago with the situation that happened in the United States, which was a, um, African American who was killed by a police officer [00:26:30] during a routine arrest that wasn't exactly routine and did not need to happen another sense of death. There have been protests all over New Zealand protesting for inequality to change within the United States. And I've been to one of those rallies and I did wonder why there are so many people out there protesting inequality in America. And yet inequality on a racial basis and a sexuality [00:27:00] basis still exist here in New Zealand, and it makes me think, and it's changed the way I view my very liberal bubble here in Wellington.

IRN: 2950
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/georgina_beyer_and_brian_tamaki_debate_civil_unions.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004588
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089882
TITLE: Georgina Beyer and Brian Tamaki debate civil unions
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Brian Tamaki; Georgina Beyer
INTERVIEWER: Paul Holmes
TAGS: 2000s; Brian Tamaki; Destiny Church; Enough is Enough (2004, Destiny Church rally); Georgina Beyer; Holmes (tv); Off-air recording; Paul Holmes; TVNZ (Television New Zealand)
DATE: 24 August 2004
YEAR: 2004
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: A Nazi movement. And if any New Zealanders think it can't happen here, I bet you that's what the Germans thought in the 19 thirties. He love. Enough is enough. No, I know. No, um, enough [00:00:30] is enough. But that why you is he every one of you? I don't mind at all. The hatred is totally intolerable. [00:01:00] So that was yesterday. Pastor Brian Tamaki is people that came from all over the country to protest to what they see as the imminent legalising of gay marriage of the the Civil Union Bill. Brian Tamaki, the controversial, [00:01:30] charismatic head of the increasingly popular Destiny Church, preaches crowds of around 1500. That does Brian Tamaki. He is our first televangelist and say what you like, But his people love him. He's got a million dollar home. Nothing wrong about, of course, except the money comes from church members, many of whom give up 10% of their gross incomes to his church. And that bothers some people. But the style of that march yesterday the tone of it gave some people the creep. It people like Georgina. She is with us live And, uh, Brian, he himself Can you see why [00:02:00] we're bothered, Brian. You know the the stiff arm, the salute. Everybody wearing black. You're down on homosexual on rugby grounds, Paul, when somebody scores a try, and I've seen it in many other places when triumph, for instance in Athens, the raising of the arm like that is is nothing akin to Nazism as it's been said. We had a great day yesterday. I'm sure it was a great day for you, but, you know, can't you see any similarities at all? Everybody wearing black people don't all wear the same colour when they go to the rugby game. We were marching like there was a marching element there. Well, if you wore all white, then [00:02:30] they moan. If we wore pink, they'd moan. Um, I mean, what's the difference? I mean, the all Blacks are all in black, and people wear black when they go to the football grounds. You see no similarities between that march here to the Nuremberg rally. Oh, totally different. Here we were. We were standing there, uh, for the up upholding the institution of marriage. Let's get on to that short. You get on to that short. Did you see similarities with um, you know, did you see memories? Echoes of the past there? I most certainly did, Paul. And not only that, I think it was the, um, attitude that accompanied the gestures. [00:03:00] Um, it was angry. It was threatening. Um, it was, uh, meaning, uh, to hurt the feelings of people such as myself. In In what way? Was it angry and, um, threatening? I mean, say you were the walking along, yelling at them, telling them that you found them disturbing. After the formalities of the speeches were over and everyone was preparing to disperse, I went down to the crowd to go and talk to, um uh the, uh, counter march supporters. I got into the middle and I had to pass through destiny church members. And, um, [00:03:30] suddenly I felt quite threatened by the taunting, the yelling at me, calling me George. George George. Jesus loves you. We love you abnormal. You know, we need to, you know, changing behaviour, this kind of stuff. This is not the only report, Brian. You know, people feeling a certain ugliness inside your crowd. Well, we don't perpetrate that, and I certainly don't. We don't go around shouting those sort of things at people, and we're not putting up with that. And we don't perpetrate that. Well, I have to contradict [00:04:00] them, Paul, but that is precisely what was going on down there yesterday. I have many witnesses around me at that time who would have noted and and seen that they are parenting a, um, a belief that, um uh, that Brian has espoused as pastor of his church Don't like, does he? Uh, no. No, they do not like gay. You will say that you've got nothing against gays. You don't like what they do. How does that work? Yeah, we need to really get this clear here on national television right now that we were down there with a peaceful march. And by the way, the Wellington police said it was the most orderly [00:04:30] march that they've seen. And we are there to uphold the institution of marriage and to protect the family. Now, hang on. Talk about let's go one step by step here talking about the gays. You're not against gays and lesbians. Is that right? No, not those people and lesbians, because at the moment there's a bit of legislation. We benefit gays and lesbians. There you are. March. We're not against gay people, Paul, but we're definitely, uh, there to make a stand, uh, for marriage and for the for the protection of the family. Because the legislation that this government [00:05:00] is perpetrating through the civil Union bill is destructive to families. How does it hurt families? Oh, well, it doesn't. Actually, Paul, it doesn't affect, uh, the institution of marriage One iota. You as a heterosexual person, marriage is not going to be affected one way or another. By that at all. There are 300,000 plus normal heterosexual New Zealanders who are going to benefit. Everybody knows gay couples are going to be able to get the same rights before the law as a heterosexual couple. [00:05:30] Same sex couples are hallelujah. Yeah, well, exactly. Hallelujah. What? What damage is that gonna do to families? Families are heard by drunken fathers beating mothers. There will be many viewers right now watching your programme, who may not agree with my particular Christian convictions. But we certainly agree that this type of behaviour is unnatural and it's abnormal and it's just not acceptable. I don't want my Children or my grandchildren to have to contend with that. But you say it's unnatural. You say it's abnormal. [00:06:00] Uh, I mean, you say it. These people are citizens like you. They have jobs, they pay their taxes, they don't go and beat up kids. If we went out to the public pool and a referendum out there right now, um, 80% of this population would say No, we we don't want this. We don't want this legislation. We don't want this law. This particular relationship of same sex relationships cannot be put on the same footing with marriage. He has a great habit of casting a very wide net to include a lot of people. How many of us are going to object to upholding [00:06:30] family values, respecting those who believe in God and Christian, not many New Zealanders poor. It's the underlying message that comes with it. Uh, but only for those of us that happen to adhere to his belief system. And the rest of us can go to hell. You've got a funny attitude on sex all around. Really? If you don't mind my saying so, you implied that Georgina was some kind of sexual perversion. This a couple of years back. You suggested that Tim Barnett would stop at nothing to bring an acceptance of every sexual orientation into this country. Do you believe that? 02 [00:07:00] men together and two women together. And we say that that is a a legitimate sexual relationship. Um, you know, that is akin to perversion that is not natural. And again, most people viewing your programme would agree with that. That is not natural. They don't want this. And and now we got 1996 with the homosexual law reform, the country got over it, Then it moved on. And I see the link [00:07:30] you're making between the and the safety of the family and, um, some kind of giving gay couples rights before the law in terms of a union. As I say to you, it is heterosexual men coming home. Boos from the pub bashing Mama, that's what I'm saying to you is the family ain't not necessarily some great wonderful temple, Brian, is it? It it nevertheless, with all its dysfunctions that it might have around it, Paul, the institution of marriage is irreplaceable. And the moment that we tamper with [00:08:00] that, we're going to continue to see the difficulties we face right now being replaced. Of course, The Civil Civil Union. What are we doing with families? A gay couple over here who want to make a formal legal commitment to each other can do so. But you, you we're a family. We're not affected by that. Well, of course, what they're also espousing is that those who do not believe in the same things as Brian and his congregation do. And then our families, uh, matter a little we don't have. There's no value in in my [00:08:30] yeah at the same time, Georgina, we've played fast and loose with the family, and a lot of people watching Brian are very and a lot of Brian's church people mention how they've learned to live as a family. I've heard them on the talk backs and they talk about they've learned the wonders and the value of the family, and we've seen nothing but family breakdown and the success of governments for 30 years. I could probably show you, um, or introduce you to Children of same sex couples who are, well, some of the most well adjusted New Zealanders you could want to meet. There is always going to be. There is always [00:09:00] going to be a green and our responsibility. Take a drop of the real issues and deal with them. And I know that the Labour League government is looking at the family issues. We've established a families commission. Uh, we are working on the trial to bring same sex relationships to the same foot in his marriage, and that's not good enough. Not good enough. Not good enough for me, as the law [00:09:30] is the day that we can then sit around the abortion and about your church. The thing I mentioned right at the top, you should have a chance to answer that. You've got a million dollar home. You've got a boat to understand. You're paying off. You've got a couple of flash cars or flash car. You've got a couple of Harleys. Um um and your money is derived solely from the church, and the people who come to your church are asked to give 10% of their gross, not net gross income. Isn't that a bit dodgy? Brian, that's a no. That's a biblical requirement, Paul, that, uh, any church [00:10:00] that, uh, well, hold on after 24 25 years of living right and doing the right things and making wise decisions. You should have something to show for your, uh, for your your good living. And that's what we've paid. And that's what he and I have brought, um, out of our savings to do so. Uh, the issue here, though, getting back to it, is that we've got to protect our families and our Children and our grandchildren's future. Paul and we, the the viewers here have got to understand that this is important. They've got to understand the Civil [00:10:30] Union bill is nothing but a face to try and legalise that and put it on the same footing as marriage. And that is you've got a nice, big, shiny gold chain there, and people are given 10% of their gross income. Very vulnerable people, many of them Paul. They changed lives. The the miracles of the lives that have been changed and what has happened in their families is fruit in itself speaks for itself. Thank you, Brian Tamaki, for coming in and Georgina Bar. Thank you very much for coming in as well. Still to come on the programme. The tall blacks, [00:11:00] um they've broke and rolled the Olympics. Um, haven't they into that? Um, Helenio Indoor arena, But no medals, but a wonderful effort. So we're gonna the tall blacks and say thank you to the tall blacks when we come back.

IRN: 2946
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/international_aids_candlelight_memorial_2014.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004322
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089616
TITLE: International AIDS Candlelight Memorial (2014)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Bruce Kilmister; Celia Wade-Brown; Claudette Hauiti; Grant Robertson; Kevin Hague; Kevin Haunui; Michael Bancroft; Paul Boland; Rangimoana Taylor; Rodney Mugadza; The Glamaphones; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; AIDS Memorial Quilt; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Body Positive; Bruce Kilmister; Candlelight Memorials; Celia Wade-Brown; Chrissy Witoko Memorial Trust; Claudette Hauiti; Courtney Cartier; David Cunliffe; Gareth Watkins; Grant Robertson; HIV / AIDS; HIV stigma; Jerry Mateparae; John Key; Kevin Hague; Kevin Haunui; Love, Cover, Protect (NZAF); Margaret Sparrow; Michael Bancroft; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; National Party; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; New Zealand Film Archive; New Zealand Labour Party; Paul Boland; Rainbow Greens - Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand; Rangimoana Taylor; Rodney Mugadza; St Matthew-in-the-City; Te Reo Māori; The Glamaphones; Tīwhanawhana; Wellington; Zimbabwe
DATE: 18 May 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa, 55 Cable Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Cannot [00:00:30] HIV a I DS [00:01:00] welcome. Yeah, [00:01:30] Yeah, [00:02:00] just a few, um, things just to, um give a brief synopsis of what I will be saying for the one or two of you who don't speak the I will actually do it in I'd say a little something in English First, The first is to acknowledge body positive [00:02:30] for organising this and also to talk about the people who have passed on to mention the LBGT community, but also those who are of who are born into sex having both sexual organs when they are born. And I'd also like you to remember that while we celebrate [00:03:00] today, people in Uganda people in Saudi Arabia are being murdered for something that is very natural to them and to their minds. But we are a celebration here today of 30 years. And so I will also acknowledge the from Waikato. And of course, because [00:03:30] it is Waikato, we, of course will acknowledge the King and his family. Then we will, um, just say something with with a bit of peace and then we'll get on with the rest of the thing, OK? And these people are going to sing something great a Oh, lovely. It's gonna be lovely. OK, [00:04:00] What? I thought thought you want to eat for a for a go out to fight [00:04:30] [00:05:00] [00:05:30] everyone? [00:06:00] No, to turn them the fuck up. They not go talk with the I. No. [00:06:30] Yeah, OK. Yeah, OK, Yeah. [00:07:00] Not yeah. Mhm. Yeah. [00:07:30] You on Michael. I rang you, Milana, On behalf of all here present, I thank you for the warmth and a of your And it is the gift of being [00:08:00] an MC firstly chosen to come from and to stand before you to be given instructions as I walked up changes to the programme. So don't follow it at all. It is a tap [00:08:30] place to which we have brought out this afternoon both in our hearts and in the symbolism that the quilt here present offers us. Te Papa is now their their home [00:09:00] to papa are the guardians we greet te papa. The curators here present all our distinguished visitors and guests who will in due course speak to you and be introduced at that time on behalf on your behalf. I also thank um Jose from the Indonesian [00:09:30] Embassy who is also here present with us today. But may I suggest to you that in the presence of those that we might call our distinguished guests, that the most distinguished for us today are those we bring in memory those people who have walked the journey, [00:10:00] the journey with HIV and AIDS related causes and who, sadly, have left us. We've come to honour and to remember them in this place, especially because the New Zealand AIDS Memorial quilt now rests here. And I think it appropriate to acknowledge [00:10:30] just one person on that quilt as we begin. Peter Cuthbert passed away in October 1988 and for whom the very first panel was made, invite you to look at that quilt after the ceremony and I'm not sure if I've got it correct. From Papa in Northland, [00:11:00] Nicky, Edie is here present with some of her whanau. And she, along with many others, were some of the very first people in Auckland to create the quilts as we know it today. Welcome. After all that, my name is Michael Bancroft, and it's my honour and privilege to lead us through this special time together. We remember [00:11:30] those from among us and our brothers and sisters throughout the world who have succumbed to this virus. This year, we've been asked to keep the light on HIV and AIDS. In 1988 a man approached me outside Saint Patrick's Cathedral in Auckland. I was at that time a priest, he said to me, [00:12:00] My name is Peter Ryan. I'm 44. I'm Catholic. I haven't been to church for 25 years. I'm gay. I have AIDS. Will you help me to die? Next Sunday will be 25 years since Peter's journey ended and thus began. My very privileged journey with those [00:12:30] living and dying from HIV and AIDS causes a journey of countless precious moments with which I wish had never begun, but for which I will be ever grateful and am still touched by the scores of lives and deaths. And that is how I became involved with the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt not quite from the beginning, but close to it. [00:13:00] And for most of the last 10 years, I have been the guardian of the Quilt Senate Committee in more recent years. We recognise the need for these precious memorials to be cared for so that future generations would be helped to remember and hopefully awaiting that day when the AIDS pandemic is no more. It was in May 2012 that [00:13:30] after some years of discussion, Te Papa said it would be an honour and a privilege for te papa to welcome and house the New Zealand AIDS quilts as a national Tonga. So te Papa are now the guardians of the quilt to be held in posterity for all the peoples of a New Zealand and beyond. [00:14:00] So invite you now in this moment when we seek to keep the light on HIV to bring to this place and this moment all who have lived and all who are living with the virus take a moment of silence as we commence. [00:14:30] I now call upon Claudette who will give the message from His Excellency the Governor General Sir Jerry Matara. First mistake. Narita Perry Nahi Kia The AIDS Candlelight memorial brings together people in communities all over the world to remember those who have died [00:15:00] from HIV A. I DS particularly the many who succumbed to the effects of the virus before effective treatment was developed. We can be thankful for the work of researchers who have made miraculous advances in science and medicine, allowing those with HIV AIDS to lead healthy and productive lives. At the same time, we must recognise that there is much to be done before there is equality. Sorry, Equity of treatment [00:15:30] across across the globe. The theme of this year's candlelight memorial. Let's Skip the Light on HIV reminds us that there is no place for complacency. The worldwide death toll has continued to rise and now stands at over 36 36 million men, women and Children. Keeping the spotlight on HIV A I DS means continuing to educate people about HIV, how [00:16:00] HIV is transmitted, advocating for safe sexual practises and encouraging people in high risk groups to get tested. It means continuing to support research into treatment and assisting those living with HIV A. I DS the alternative. Taking the spotlight of HIV is unacceptable. Ignorance and complacency will only result in increased transmission of HIV AIDS, enlightened lives [00:16:30] and communities in New Zealand. Our health agencies are working effectively and over 80% of people living with HIV AIDS are receiving treatment. However, we may we have not made the same inroads with regard to discrimination and prejudice in the community in recognition of the fact various stakeholders stakeholder groups are joining together to launch an anti stigma campaign [00:17:00] this year as governor general and patron of the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. I hope those attending candlelight memorial ceremonies organised by body positive New Zealand will support this worthy campaign. We thank you no. Formerly [00:17:30] from Papua New Guinea who's lived among us for nearly 30 years for honouring us with a message from the Governor General, I now call upon her worship Mayor Wade Brown to speak on behalf of the greater Wellington community. Thank you, Michael. [00:18:00] I'd like to acknowledge the MP S. The organisers friends, welcome to the coolest little capital of what is said to be the most socially progressive country in the world. [00:18:30] And thanks to te Papa for hosting us and for hosting the quilt and may we share that warmth, I'd like to, um note you're welcome and thank you for it. It is good to share this occasion both as a memorial to our friends and who have struggled with HIV aids and also a celebration of who we [00:19:00] are in this room today. We do have cause to celebrate, and I was just thinking of a couple of people that really put the fun into anti discrimination. Think of Conchita Worst. The bearded transvestite who created said she created her persona to show the world you can do whatever you want. And Michael Sam, the standout college American football [00:19:30] player who is the first openly gay player to be selected for an NFL team. Both of them define themselves by their passion, their skills, their entertainment, not by who they choose to hold hands with. Wellington is defined by our people, our diversity and our tolerance. We may be smart, but we're not binary. [00:20:00] So Wellington's lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex and communities make important contributions to our city's culture. Economic and social well being provide an essential element of our identity that we could all feel collectively proud of. And, of course, there are some absolutely, positively fabulous pink tourism opportunities. It was a delight that Trent and Paul, [00:20:30] who I think were married right here, um made the journey to celebrate their first wedding anniversary. I think there's a lot of opportunity, and it's great for Wellington that we're one of the few places that you can get married, but it's not great for the world. I did a little tiny bit of research on the Net last night and saw What is it? 76 or 78 countries where there are laws against who you love, [00:21:00] what you do with another consenting adult that you love or think you might just quite like from time to time. So you know, we've done I looked back and saw that wonderful, um, celebration in Parliament, and it is great that there's marriage equality here. Um, but regardless of your inclinations, let's face it, a monogamous life is actually not [00:21:30] the only way to enjoy life on this planet. And our city strives to make people welcome to celebrate fairness, equality and freedom. And, you know, looking at those numbers on the Net, it's bad enough that there are laws on the books that are out of date. And look, we've probably still got some laws in this country that are a bit out of date, and I'd like to acknowledge while I'm the Wellington mayor, I yet or maybe [00:22:00] who knows represent the greater Wellington community, and I'd like to acknowledge Fran Ward, who's chair of the regional council for her work in homosexual law reform. So, you know, I just think I better make sure that nobody thinks that I'm imitating Fran standing up here, you know, just in case anyone was getting the two of us mixed up. Um, so But when I was on the Net last night, what really horrified me was not just the laws, but the amount of [00:22:30] hate, the lack of love, the lack of understanding And, let's face it, the complete lack of science and the bigotry that takes little pieces out of science or a variety of religious books or people's own experience or the fact that actually, there are the occasional lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender or intersex people who yeah, they might once upon a time have done something wrong, like everybody [00:23:00] else. And generalises that So now I just I was actually quite horrified about the level of attack and bitterness, so it was a really good reminder to me, and I think that this city and the candles that are lit tonight Well, this afternoon will be a bit of a beacon of hope. And, um, Claudette just said to me, is that the wind out there. So I thought there was a rather nice, um, metaphor. We could have that the winds [00:23:30] of Wellington are dispelling the clouds of discrimination. So thank you. Thank you, Celia. Not only for the words of reflection but the challenge you give each one of us, but also our whole nation. We will now [00:24:00] hear from the various members of Parliament here, present and in some cases, absent. I first of all, call upon national MP correctly this time our, um Claudette, who will also share a message from the right honourable the Prime Minister John Key [00:24:30] [00:25:00] from the prime minister. Best wishes for the 2014 International [00:25:30] AIDS Candlelight Memorial. Tonight's memorial is about paying tribute to and Commemorating those who have tragically died of AIDS and HIV AIDS and HIV has a significant impact on many New Zealand communities. Let me take this opportunity to acknowledge those those of you at tonight's memorial who are living with AIDS, AIDS or know someone close to you who is? I would [00:26:00] also like to acknowledge and thank all of you who help and support New Zealanders who are affected by AIDS organisations such as the AIDS Foundation body. Positive and positive women work tireless tirelessly to support those brave New Zealanders. My thoughts are with you this evening. Best wishes the right honourable John Key, Prime Minister. And for myself, as we gather here it is to commemorate our loved our beloved [00:26:30] our lovers no longer with us and body but in spirit still strongly felt in our hearts. And it is to celebrate those who today are living with HIV and AIDS. And we are here to offer the touched by AIDS and HIV. I would like to and acknowledge along with the Prime Minister, the done by body positive and Bruce Kister your advocacy work. Implementing strategic and government decisions [00:27:00] of your trust board and fundraising initiatives is extraordinary. I'd like to echo the sentiments again of our Prime Minister and saying thank you on a very personal note. There is not a day that goes by where myself and my beautiful wife Nadine, and our Children, where we do not see sights or hear sounds or feel emotions that remind us of our brothers gone from this earthly realm [00:27:30] like Boss Man, No departed to play bit of netball games on gold and paved courts with rainbow coloured balls. Or like departed in search of a to entertain elemental deities. Or like our very beautiful Jason composing to inspire our mercy for gods. This evening I would like to commemorate [00:28:00] and celebrate my brothers and to tell them and to tell all our brothers and sisters our that you will never be lost You are a seed born of greatness descended from a line of chiefs You are ornaments of grace, your pride You did show us all so that we may know who you are You are warriors our loved, our beloved Our lovers our cherish our treasured our ornaments [00:28:30] of grace And you can never be lost You are seeds of greatness descended from a line of But you know you go, you go [00:29:00] It will be Yeah, he got all the way Hello? Yeah, no, you that. But, uh, [00:29:30] watching my it. Yeah, you. [00:30:00] Not far. You and W. Oh, no, Be think. Hi. [00:30:30] Thank you, Claudette. And thank you for the on behalf of the Labour Party, Grant Robertson. Welcome. I have [00:31:00] a message today from the leader of the Labour Party, David Cliff, But I'm going to ask your indulgence. If anyone ever asks. I read it out in full, so not not not because it's not a wonderful message. And it is. But because on the today of all days, I hope you'll beg my indulgence to speak personally. Uh, on this issue today. And if anyone's worried, Kevin's [00:31:30] got a stop watch. So he's going to stop me when he needs to. When I first told my mother that I was gay, the first words that came out of her mouth were, Don't get AIDS. My mother is one of the most liberal, compassionate, loving people you will ever meet. But this was 1990 and she, like most people in our community, thought that AIDS, HIV and AIDS were a death sentence [00:32:00] because they were because they were for so many in our community and as someone who came out into that environment. Some of my first interactions were with people who were dying, and it frightened me, and it frightened my generation of rainbow community members. And in some ways I feel myself falling between two communities. The community of people who through the 19 eighties and into the 19 nineties watched [00:32:30] their friends and their family pass away, and I saw that partly from a bit of a distance. And then I look at here, the generation in front of me or half a generation and and the gay world. Generations are very short five years a generation in front of me to see the complacency about HIV, and I feel myself in the middle of those two communities. Yet experience teaches me that that's not the case [00:33:00] around the turn of the century into the year 4000, and one a man named and I'll call him a different name today for a reason. You'll understand in a moment a man named Jacob who I knew died having hidden the fact that he was HIV positive from everyone in his life. For more than a decade, he had at a time when we would all think the stigma had passed, [00:33:30] we'd moved on. There was medication, there was treatment, but the stigma remained for him, and he died alone and without the support that he should have had. So while I might feel that I fall between those two communities, the reality is the experience. All the way through has been one of hope and triumph mixed with despair and loss. And today we come to celebrate the lives of all [00:34:00] of those from our community who have passed on and who live with the virus today and all of those who have supported and been there and lived through that time. And I want to make a special reference, Um, today to those who cared for people as they died, who held the hands who've moistened the brow, who did the things that made those days, those last days, days of dignity. I [00:34:30] want to acknowledge all of those carers today, and I want to acknowledge the carers of today and in particular body positive and the tremendous work that body positive does in our community, along with the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. Because everybody is entitled to a life of dignity, no one should face stigma for being HIV positive. No one and every single day. All of us can continue to ensure that those [00:35:00] in our community who live with the virus live lives of dignity. We can do that, and we do that by upholding the theme of this year's International Day to keep the light on HIV. We keep the light of hope. We keep the light of care and we always remember those who have lived. I want to finish on on one small point. It is also the International Day of Action Against Homophobia and Transphobia around [00:35:30] the world yesterday here today in other parts of the world we cannot stand by when people in countries around the world are criminalised and killed for who they are. It is all of our job to not only keep the light on HIV and the more than 30 million people who carry the virus, but also to keep the light on discrimination. To keep the light on those who will not allow people to live lives of dignity. Every single [00:36:00] one of us must take that stand every single day. Thank you so much. Grant is one of our own for speaking so frankly, another one of our MP S who is so well known to so many of us on behalf of the Green Party, I welcome [00:36:30] Kevin Hague. Um um uh [00:37:00] I. I bring a message which I am going to read out because I wrote it from the Co-leaders of our party, Um, Russell, Russell Norman and the AIDS Candlelight Memorial provides every year a special opportunity to pause and [00:37:30] together with others from around aotearoa. Remember those we have lost to the HIV A. I DS pandemic. The Green Party joins with you all in this community act of collective remembrance. Thanks to the improved treatments, we can rejoice nowadays that so many of our friends living with HIV and AIDS are alive and well long. May that continue. But let us also take this time to remember the many fabulous lives that touched ours [00:38:00] and were forever stilled by this terrible virus. We promise them that we will never forget. There's There's a song from the musical Lea, um, chairs and empty tables that's been donated around the world, um, to be used for HIV charities and for HIV remembrance events. For me, that song is not quite right. [00:38:30] One of the reasons I hate the AIDS Candlelight Memorial is that every year it causes me to be surrounded by ghosts, and rather than empty chairs and empty tables, I'm surrounded by people that I recognise in the street and then look a second time and it's not that person, after all. And because they're gone. So that reliving of all of that pain, all of those scabs ripped off once [00:39:00] again is a painful, painful time for me. And I think, is this Is this what it's like, um, to to be old? Is this what it's like to be a soldier in wartime, to be surrounded by the ghosts of so many that we've lost who were actually just like me? I'm not one of them purely by chance. So I hate the AIDS Candlelight memorial. [00:39:30] But I also love the AIDS Candlelight memorial. And I love it because it is the opportunity for us once again to to celebrate. And here we are 30 years on celebrate our victory, our refusal to to be crushed by this epidemic, our refusal to to to be stalled by it, to dance on, to actually fight against the repression [00:40:00] that that this terrible virus has wrought. So I love the AIDS Candlelight memorial. For that reason, I want to finish in the way that I should have begun come in here more. No, [00:40:30] [00:41:00] thank you, Kevin, for the personal message that you have shared with us all one of the gifts that so many of our sisters and brothers in the community who have gone before us have been part of is that they can sing and they did sing and they will sing. [00:41:30] And you here in Wellington absolutely positive or precious. Whatever you're calling yourselves today, I wasn't blown in yesterday. But you are blessed here in Wellington with the glamour phones as we are blessed in Auckland with the gals. So I invite them now to share their part of the tribute. And I will, [00:42:00] um, just say at this stage that this song is beloved and when they sing a little bit later on, I will explain what they are actually singing. Thank you. [00:42:30] [00:43:00] [00:43:30] Thank you. GMO phones Jane for that gift you have shared with us. Our community has so many gifted people. And as you looked upon those images on [00:44:00] the screen, I think it's appropriate at this point, no doubt to his embarrassment that we acknowledge the great work that Gareth Watkins has done in our community. He photographed every single one of the AIDS court panels every block of the panel helped with putting the history together and of course at [00:44:30] the moment, as I hope most of you are aware. Exhibition 30 is on at the film archives. All of those are gifts that we are offering today is possibly one person in New Zealand has who's had more to do with positive men and women than most of us put together through his work as the [00:45:00] CEO of body positive. And that is Bruce Kilmister. And in case any of you are concerned, um, he has not become Dame Margaret Sparrow. But we do send our to Dame Margaret, whose sister had very major surgery during the week. And she is with her sister at this time where I'm sure we know she belongs. [00:45:30] So Bruce will share what Dame Margaret would have shared and also his own journey. Thank you, Bruce. Um thank you, Michael. And first of all, I want to acknowledge this house that we stand in. I want to acknowledge all those that we come here today to remember and to pay respect to. And [00:46:00] whilst Dane Margaret Sparrow can't be here today, you've got a consolation prize of me. Perhaps one of the oldest chooks living with HIV today. We thought we'd ask a Margaret to talk about the the history of AIDS in New Zealand because we thought it would be quite a neutral position to have her speak. And when she couldn't be here and I was told at the last minute I was going to have to do it, I thought, Oh my God, it's like being handed a poisoned chalice And there are just too many politics [00:46:30] for me to embroil myself in in more politics and today. But I, I want to give you perhaps a few personal reflections on my history with HIV and AIDS today. Every person here, I think, has some connection. Either is living with HIV knows somebody living with HIV or is in support of the fight that we do fight today. [00:47:00] I grew up in the fifties. In fact, I'm 63 and lived almost half my life with HIV and in the fifties we were a criminalised community. The homosexual community were a criminalised community, and on top of that, we started to hear this thing about our brothers in foreign parts, particularly in America, were dying from this disease. We had no idea what it was we just knew these [00:47:30] horrible stories were coming out down to us in New Zealand. It had different names in a in in Africa. They called it the slimming disease or the skinny disease and all sorts of names. But one of the names I hated most was it was called God's Vengeance on Queers. So we had to live in those very dark times with that stigma that persecution and all of our friends, family lovers, partners [00:48:00] seemed to be getting ill and dying around us. In fact, in New Zealand, over 700 New Zealanders have died from AIDS AIDS related conditions. It's probably more because back in those dark days you would not identify AIDS as the cause of death because funeral directors refused to take care of the body. They were dark days and back then we were a criminalised community [00:48:30] for the love that we expressed between each other to support each other. There were what we call regional networks aid support networks in the main cities in Auckland, the support network was the initial formation of what today is body positive, and from those networks we brought into being the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, that, um, [00:49:00] Constitution for the AIDS Foundation was signed in 1985. I was one of the early trustees on there, and I want to acknowledge also those who were at the very beginning. I see Bill Logan amongst us here today, too. So I acknowledge to Bill and the contributions he's made my part in, this is a very small part. It's one of many one of many, and there are so many that have [00:49:30] made the contribution and the final contribution of their lives for this part of the early work of the AIDS Foundation was to support Fran Wild's legislation, the Amendment to the Crimes Act, and that was passed in July, Uh, the following year, 1986. I think that was a good start. That was a good start after law reform. I thought we needed social reform. We needed to debunk [00:50:00] the myth that being a homosexual was another term for paedophilia or or or freak or creep or whatever we needed to adjust people's minds. So when a friend of mine, Rick's Halliday, got involved with starting the hero project, I came on board with them and for 10 years almost I was chair of what was called the Hero Project and started the hero parade and got that running. It was fantastic. It was great to be able to perhaps portray some of the innocence [00:50:30] of our community, some of the humanness of our community and alongside all of that, to continue the fight against HIV and a ID in the late nineties, I then finally retired as the chair of hero because I was going through a bad time with AIDS. My partner, Victoria he had died. [00:51:00] Not everybody lives comfortably with the antiretrovirals that are prescribed. In fact, in the very early days, they weren't sufficient. If you saw the film the Dallas Buyers Club, you'd recognise that, uh, the very early diagnosis and the prescriptions of AC. T, in fact, was killing people quicker than the virus, and people were turning to other therapies. And I can remember I used to travel across to Australia to smuggle HIV drugs back [00:51:30] into New Zealand. Only once did I get stopped and caught by customs. And when they opened my bag and saw about 75 bottles of antiretroviral medication, the young customs officer thought she'd probably caught the biggest drug smuggler in the world, and I was just wishing that they would bring a prosecution to to highlight what we were suffering from. Instead, about a week later, the then minister of health announced a $5 [00:52:00] million grant to pharmac budget to buy antiretroviral medication for us today, body positive advocates for people living with HIV and we work across all fields, particularly to keep New Zealand up to par with what's going on in the rest of the world. And for the most part, what medication is available anywhere in the world is is available here. People now live healthy long lives, uh, with HIV and science has made remarkable [00:52:30] advances in the last 30 years for medicine. But sadly for stigma and discrimination, we have not seen much in the advancement of that at all. Our colleagues, the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, our colleagues and women positive women, uh, in the in Maori and Pacific Island AIDS Foundation. The needle exchange, the New Zealand prostitutes collective have all come together to try and put together a working party [00:53:00] to mount a campaign against the stigma and discrimination that people living with HIV still face today. And it is demonstrated in so many ways. Body positive does a range of rapid testing for people who want to check that they are free from the virus. And we also take that test to sex on site venues. And I go across to a sauna, a gay sauna in Auckland and in a gay sauna. You'd expect it to [00:53:30] be gay friendly because everyone is wanting to have sex with each other. And it's a place for gay men to relax and be comfortable, and we have a very small form to fill out for them before we give them the test. One of the questions that there's a tick box besides, are you homosexual? Are you heterosexual? Over 80% identify as heterosexual. They still feel the stigma of what it is today in New Zealand of living with [00:54:00] HIV and to avoid that prospect. And they won't identify as being gay either. So again today, I just want to acknowledge all of those people amongst you today who have made contributions for where we have come to today. But the theme of the candlelight memorial today is Let's keep the light on HIV aids, and we still have a lot of work to do so again. I'd like to reflect [00:54:30] on that personally and also to thank all those who've made a contribution today, particularly to Ron, my Wellington manager, Leslie, his staff member and all of those who have made today possible. Tato, Thank you very much. Thank you for the privilege [00:55:00] of listening to you, Bruce. Bye. The energy, the time that Bruce puts into his role could fill volumes not of praise of Bruce, but of the caring that he's given and through him, all those in the various pos body positive and wellness groups that have existed and still exist. Thank you, Bruce. [00:55:30] As time has gone on, we've also become so aware of the fact that among us now, there are so many people from our African communities. And Rodney Maza is now going to share with us something of the response to HIV here in Greater Wellington. Thank you. Good afternoon to you all. [00:56:00] Uh, thank you. Body body Positive, uh, for giving me a few minutes to talk and take part in this movement against HIV A I DS It is certainly heartwarming to join the rest of the world in remembering those who lost their lives from HIV and A I DS I'm from Zimbabwe, where the rates of infection have steadily decreased over the years. However, there is still a lot of work to be done in supporting people living with HIV and A I DS. It is encouraging [00:56:30] to hear that attitudes and behaviours have changed towards having the virus. But however stigma is still a monster many African countries are battling to deal with today one of the causes of lower numbers of new infections, particularly in Zimbabwe and many other African countries. Combating the virus is a result of HIV awareness programmes and campaigns that highlight the dangers of the virus. Free voluntary testing [00:57:00] and condom distribution also contributed to the down trend. The programme I work for Love, Cover Protect and New Zealand AIDS Foundation aims to support um aims to do the same for African people living in New Zealand. We do this by holding HIV workshops sponsoring African sporting and cultural events plus any other means of engaging in the African community. [00:57:30] We also offer free pre counselling and free confidential testing with, with the support system put in place to follow up and support those new diagnoses. Love Cover Protect promotes condom culture in New Zealand with almost 2000 condoms distributed in the Wellington region, particularly in the African communities for 2013. We collaborate with other organisations, uh like [00:58:00] youth centres and refugee organisations and refugee programmes and that gives us access to our target audience. The success and progress of the African programme in New Zealand since it became in uh since it began began in 2004 can be measured by the latest stats which indicate that they are close to no new infections in the African community in the past year in 2013. So that is, um very positive. I think our work is really being, um, seen through the [00:58:30] results of those. I know how painful it is to experience the loss of a loved one because I've lived through it 14 years. Today I watched a close relative die a long and painful death due to advanced stages of of aids. It is that experience that motivated me to stand up for people affected and infected by the virus and it is organisations like body positive NZAF in and positive woman that keeps that spirit [00:59:00] alive. Let's stand up and support friends and families who have been affected by the virus. We will. We will not let us beat Beat us. Let's get down to zero and get rid of stigma for people living with HIV aids. Thank you very much. [00:59:30] Night. Oh. Oh, [01:00:00] OK, right. So yeah, like to she got right. Yeah, right. Like to Bye. You got it. You back. Sorry [01:00:30] or so. Thank you for uplifting our spirits. Thank you for rousing the spirits of all who have gone before us. And if they were asleep before, they're not now. Thank you. [01:01:00] The fact that we are gathered here this afternoon and that this gathering has been so beautifully arranged is in no small way, thanks to body positive. And Paul Bolan, board member of body positive, will now address you. Thank you, Paul. Man in [01:01:30] a no. Then I then I Then I go to I'm afraid that's as far as my Maori goes. I've been nine months in New Zealand only, and I apologise for being from that little island on [01:02:00] the left called the Oz. And, um, Ron asked me to speak today. nine months ago, I've sort of had a gestation period. Perhaps today is my birthday. But in that nine months, it felt like nine years because Wellington has welcomed me. And I think it is the most amazing coolest city in the world. [01:02:30] And you don't need me to tell you that because I think you do all know it. However, in good Australian fashion, I'd like to pay my respects to the original inhabitants of these beautiful islands those past and those here today. And now let's talk about sex. [01:03:00] Yeah, that was the reason that I was going to be here today to talk about sex. Ron wanted me to get young people up on the stage because the future is in their hands. I didn't mean a pun there, but no, no, I've got your interest. We'll get on to the other part of the story. They were too busy texting, by the way the young people could not get here today. [01:03:30] But I'd like the those who are here and who have young people in their lives to pass on some of the words that they've heard today because the future is in their hands. You know we are all has beens, although I must say I feel younger every day. I'm in Wellington and Tina has played a role in that too. Thank you. Yesterday I saw two movies. I must confess I'm a movie tragic and Wellington [01:04:00] has got a fantastic film culture here. As you all know, one of them was at the film archives, courtesy of Gareth Watkins, and we must thank very much for what he's given us today. And the other was a movie from the Brazilian Film Festival. You know what's on at the moment? Tomorrow's the last day or today's the last day. I believe they've had fantastic movies there. The one [01:04:30] I saw was called Who Cares? And I'll talk about it a bit later, but it was a very, very important movie. It was a couple of years old that had been brought back, especially for this festival. But why we're here today is because we care. We care for those who have gone before us and those who are with us today. [01:05:00] Ron also asked me to tell my story because, like Bruce, I'm a long-term positive person. 31 years ago, in 1983. I was infected in Melbourne with HIV, and my life has been a great run ever since. Then I must say, I mean, if HIV can enrich your [01:05:30] life, it certainly has enriched my life like everybody. Um here does their overseas experience your OE. I did my OE. In 1968 I worked on a cargo ship leaving Sydney for the big US of A And with me were two young Kiwi Maori boys. My first friends from New Zealand were young Maori boys working in the engine room with [01:06:00] me for 30 days wiping the grease of the engine going to America, not a country that I really wanted to go to. But that's where the ship went to. And I disembarked as soon as I got to the first port of call, which was Vancouver, the beautiful city of Vancouver, which I'm going to speak to our Lady mayor later because it is a most amazing sister [01:06:30] city of Wellington. Anyway, I arrived in, uh, Vancouver. I didn't see my two Maori friends after that. I don't know what happened to them, but as far as I was concerned, I hitchhiked across America and settled in New York for about nine months, and I was there in 1969. And do you know what happened in New York in 1969 a little event called Stonewall. [01:07:00] For six days, the drag queens rioted in the Stonewall Inn in Christopher Street, and the night of their first rioting, I was at a bar around the corner because I was discovering my real true identity as a gay man. And what better place to do it than in New York? But I was at a bar called Julius Bar in the village, not far away from Stonewall. [01:07:30] But the next day we heard in the news what was going on. The story about Stonewall is very important because all of gay liberation started from that week in 1969 in May. I think it was May. It might have been June, but it was drag queens and, um, transvestites Trannies, who refused [01:08:00] to be told that they couldn't drink at a bar in Christopher Street, and they fought the police. New York was in the hands of the Mafia and the police. At that stage, the Mafia owned the gay bars. They had to pay the police. It was the drag queens that fought the police on Stonewall. And that's not just that gay bar that many of you may know in Oxford Street called Stonewall. It was the Stonewall Inn in New York, [01:08:30] and it's on the back of these fabulous, strong transgender drag queens in New York that gay liberation is built. And in New Zealand we have the likes of the recently departed Carmen Rupe, rest in peace and our fantastic Georgina BAA, whom I don't think is here in the audience today, is she? I mean, these are the people [01:09:00] that have changed the law in New Zealand. I'm only learning about it now what's gone on here before, But I find it each day of my life here in New Zealand as a as a new adventure, and learning about what's gone on before me is part of the thrill of becoming less of a kangaroo and more of a Kiwi. The other movie I saw was at the film archives, and it was the story of [01:09:30] Lou Prime. Now I know he's an Auckland man. Bruce knows him. I'm sure. Do any of you have you any of you heard of a rock and roll star born in Taran Taranaki that called Luke Pryor? Well, it was his story, and he and his partner both died of AIDS a week apart. It was a beautiful love story, but the postscript [01:10:00] to that movie was that they were in the closet. This only happened in the 19 nineties, and they couldn't come out because the climate didn't welcome them. And yet he was the manager of the Auckland Rugby Union Club. He brought them out of the doldrums. I think they won six premierships. They died within a week of each other. And he said, This movie that was filmed [01:10:30] was an amazing film, a documentary, he said, Only on my desk can this film be released and I recommend it to everybody. It was an amazing, um, truthful example of what these two boys, one of them very high high profile in Auckland, had to live through because of the stigma and the moral case of we don't want to know about [01:11:00] it. But things are changing anyway, back to my story. After I left New York, I went to live in Europe and for six years I lived the high life in Europe, squander a lot of my all of my money and came back a bit later to pick up the virus The welcome virus in Melbourne in 1983. However, [01:11:30] I want my story is a little bit different because I decided that I wasn't going to die. I never, ever thought that I was So I After I left Melbourne about five years into the, uh, virus, I was burnt out actually for looking after people who are dying. I moved back to the central coast where I came [01:12:00] from and in Newcastle, a bit north of Sydney. I got a job with the new the New South Wales AIDS Council A and I was the, um HIV education officer there and it was 1993. I was discovering the Internet. I did a lot of research and I discovered that there were people who thought like I did, that the virus was not lethal, [01:12:30] that it was not going to kill you because I knew that I wasn't going to die. I knew in my heart and soul that I would never die. But I had changed my life around. I was leading a pretty healthy life, and I discovered this English magazine called Continuum, a London produced magazine where people like me have been positive for many years and were still asymptomatic as we were called. Well, I love what they said, and I went to New York. [01:13:00] I spoke in New York. I went to London. I spoke there Continuum, the name of the magazine, which has died, Unfortunately, because, like all of my friends who believe that HIWV wasn't lethal, not like all of them. But most of them did die. I was one of the exceptions who didn't and I accept the fact that I was possibly naive. But it was my naivety that probably allows me to stand [01:13:30] healthy before you today, I even wrote an article for continuing in 1997 called Lust for Life, and it's still on the Internet under my name, and I'm a little bit embarrassed, so please don't look up. Yeah, but President Mbeki, I must quote Africa here as well as South Africa. He followed the same belief system that I had, and unfortunately, he [01:14:00] hasn't gone down well in history because he refused the medications for the people who were dying in Africa, and it was not a good thing. In my case, I refused the medications also a little like in, um, the Dallas Buyers Club. I did not want to take a ZT because I had great disrespect for the multinational drug companies, and I knew that a ZT was a lethal [01:14:30] injection, as it was for so many people who, after only a few weeks of taking it, were wheeled out of the hospital dead. But after 22 years at that stage, I was looking after my mother, who was in her nineties. I started to lose weight and the virus kicked in. It is an ugly virus. It's a wasting virus. I looked skinnier than a supermodel, [01:15:00] and it was not a good look. My Kiwi doctor, Interestingly, in Gosford at that stage, I finally went to her and I said, I think you better give me some medication and this was, um, eight years ago and I took medications and I bounced back, and I'm here today fit and strong and well and available and [01:15:30] and I'd like to get Bruce Kilter's endorsement that as my viral load is undetectable, I am noninfectious. OK, somebody asked me why we still have this memorial. Well, I think it's clear from the other speakers why we have the memorial. It's a very important day for everybody [01:16:00] to remember what has gone on before. The other movie that I saw, thanks to Gareth Watkins again was called a Death in the Family at the film archives. Have any of you seen a death in the family? I can't believe it in a way, because it was such a great movie by Peter Wells, one of your great filmmakers who lives in Napier. [01:16:30] And it was about one of the very early deaths from AIDS in Auckland, and it was a a drama acted. I could not believe. It wasn't a documentary. It was so well done. It was a brilliant movie. It should go all around the world. Peter Well, Wells has since retired from making movies, I think because it's too difficult to get movies made now, but he is one of the icons in this country. I think a death in [01:17:00] the family is a movie that everybody really who's interested in what went on in the early days should see because we have to remain vigilant. And as somebody said earlier, complacency only brings laziness. Laziness brings lack of condom use. Lack of condom use brings HIV Now I just caught somebody's [01:17:30] eye in the audience who was at the movie with me yesterday, who lost her brother from HIV eight or nine years ago, and we had a discussion after the movie and the word self esteem came up. And I'm a great believer that self esteem is the answer to so many of the world's problems, especially [01:18:00] the gay world problems, because history has shown that we haven't been accepted history. The laws are changing. But society, unfortunately, is changing much slower. And it's this lack of self esteem that many of the gay people, transgender and intersex people can easily have. That is the source of so many problems. And [01:18:30] this is where I link it up with the movie, the Brazilian movie Who cares? Which is about a bunch of people all around the world who are making changes in the world. They are called social entrepreneurs. We have a lot of entrepreneurs in New Zealand social entrepreneurs. It's a new term. It's people who want to see change in society change like standing up, proud to be HIV positive. [01:19:00] And these stories in this movie were part of the message that I'd like to leave with you today is that the young people who are very creative need to institute change. We can give them that opportunity to do that. But there are opportunities for change even in this fantastic, progressive, exciting city of Wellington and [01:19:30] country of New Zealand which has adopted me and which I have very happily adopted. I know you all want to have your afternoon tea, so I'm going to finish with a quote from Nelson Mandela, who in January 2006 announced to his country the great iconic leader of South Africa and to the world. I'll read out [01:20:00] what he said. My son has died of AIDS. Let us give publicity to HIV AIDS and not hide it because the only way to make it appear normal is to come out and say someone has died of HIV. Then people will stop regarding it as extraordinary. I would go further and say that we need to be proud that we're HIV positive. [01:20:30] There is nothing to be ashamed of. There is so much to be proud of. Look at our history. I am proud. We should all be proud that we have HIV and are still alive and still working against this virus. So finally I would like to say [01:21:00] Let us be proud and strong enough to tell our family and friends without fear or consequence that we are HIV positive. Thank you. [01:21:30] Ron Irvine, the manager of body positive. Wellington has asked me to give some acknowledgements for people who have helped us bring this together today. And first and foremost is te papa the for their help with all the logistics and to access this fantastic venue also body positive. Michael. Thank you, [01:22:00] Michael. All the guest speakers who have come along and of course, to Michael Bancroft, who came down from Auckland to look after us as well. Gareth Watkins from the film archives who did all the screenings leading up to today and also the candle light rainbow Wellington, for their help with sponsorship. The Chrissy Wait Memorial Trust through me and [01:22:30] who sponsored the afternoon tea coming up afterwards, and the New Zealand AIDS Foundation of With Don and Lee, who are great. Help. Also, Carl Greenwood, the New Zealand PC, the prostitutes collective. Thank you to them and Peter Stob audio visual services for filming us here today. So I think that's everybody. And now Michael is going to finish the proceedings. [01:23:00] Thank you. Thank you. To everyone who has contributed. I'm just going to beg your indulgence for hopefully only a minute and a half or thereabouts. Don't time me. Nearly 10 minutes 10 years ago, [01:23:30] a young man was dying. His name was Carl Daniels, and he was at Bay House in Auckland. He was better known in the Auckland community as Courtney Cartier and we sat down. She told me everything that she wanted for her funeral. One of the requests was Anyone who's ever worn a dress is to be in a dress [01:24:00] that includes you, Michael. You may not be a priest now, but you used to dress up. Then we had the decoration of the casket and then Courtney appeared and all her finery? Absolutely. If I remember sparkling blue lay down in the casket and had them put the lid on. Not [01:24:30] to see what it was like with a lid over view but in her own words to make sure my boobs don't get crushed. We held an amazing funeral, which some of you were at at Saint Matthew in the city, and everyone was given a balloon. Now, if you don't know Saint Matthew and the city, it's right on the Hobson Street, which is a [01:25:00] 5 to 6 lane road that takes you up onto the southern motorway of Auckland. At the end of the service, everyone in a dress literally blocked off the whole of the road, and this was at about this time of the day. The most busy traffic time in Auckland ever stopped everyone so [01:25:30] that the hearse could go up the road on its own with balloons flying. Now the people in their cars may not have known what was happening, but I'll tell you what was really moving. There was the honking of horns, but it wasn't a honking. That said, What are you lot doing? Get out of our way. It was kind of on your way, whoever you are, and I want to finish with that as MC to remind [01:26:00] all of us that while some of the things we've heard today remind us that it's been a horrible 30 plus years in the sense we've lost a lot of our loved ones that it's still with us in the sense that there are so many living with the virus and still hidden that our sisters and brothers would want us to celebrate their lives. And what better [01:26:30] as kiwis do We do that by remembering and eating? I am told that if you wish to spend the night here, still be on the premises at six o'clock. That means get out of here before six. So the only request from the staff is that by [01:27:00] 5. 45 at the latest that people will be heading out of the building. Please. I now hand over to a to close this ceremony. Makai will be served over to our right there. Take your time. Celebrate. Thank you all. Thank you. [01:27:30] Do Yeah, Yeah, [01:28:00] Yeah. The good Good. [01:28:30] Yeah. And to OK, [01:29:00] [01:29:30] there you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:30:00] Ladies and gentlemen, Clay or, uh, refreshments are going to be served at the back, Just through in the kitchens over there. And then you see, the [01:30:30] first call goes to the people. But if you're not there, the second call goes out to the dogs. No, no. Better.

IRN: 2943
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/lesbian_visibility_day_panel.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004587
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089881
TITLE: Lesbian Visibility Day panel
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Aria Oliver; Creek; Karen Harris; Neo Kenny; Sophie Standfield; Summer Edwards
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Albert Wendt; Anne Lister; Aotearoa New Zealand; Aria Oliver; Artemis; Blenheim; COVID-19 (coronavirus); Call Me by Your Name (book/film); Colette (film); Creek; Ellen DeGeneres; Gentleman Jack (tv); Hayley Kiyoko; InsideOUT Kōaro; K. D. Lang; Karen Harris; King Princess; Lavender Menace; Lesbian Visibility Day; Lesbian flag; Lipstick Lesbian flag; Nelson; Neo Kenny; Online event; Pasifika; Rainbow flag; Sappho; Sophie Standfield; Stephen Fry; Summer Edwards; Supergirl (tv); The Adventures of Vela (book); The Hippopotamus (book); The L Word (tv); The L Word: Generation Q (tv); Transgender flag; Wellington; Work in Progress (tv); Zoom (online video conferencing); bicurious; bisexual; butch; clothing; colour; communism; death; demisexual; diversity; family; fanfiction; femme; fetishisation; fetishism; friends; gender identity; growing up; labels; labrys; lesbian; media; music; myth; non-binary; open relationship; pink triangle (symbol); pronouns; queer straight alliance (QSA); rainbows; relationships; representation; sapphic; sexualisation; shame; stereotypes; submission; takatāpui; useless lesbian; violet; visibility
DATE: 26 April 2020
YEAR: 2020
LOCATION: Online event
CONTEXT: Audio from the InsideOUT intergenerational, online panel discussion to celebrate Lesbian Visibility Day on 26 April 2020. The panel featured Creek, Sophie, Karen, Summer, Aria and Neo. A special thank you to the participants and organisers for allowing this to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So to start us off, we'll do an introduction round. So name pronouns how you identify If you want to say, um, anything else you wanna add Maybe where you live your age, but you don't have to. It's all up to you. OK, cool. I'll go first. I'm Craig. I am a lesbian, and I'm 37. I also identify as bisexual because I also still have sex with men. But I'm like living this big [00:00:30] lesbian marriage life, so that takes up 99% of my time. So that's why I identify as bisexual lesbian, um, and I I also identify as butch and as non-binary because I think of Butch as a form of non binary gender. And so I use the pronouns he him Because I'm just testifying to my masculinity in that way. Cool. So, um, I'm Sophie. I'm a lesbian. No, um, I use [00:01:00] she. Her pronouns. Um, I'm also desex. Um, So for those of you who might not know what that means, um, it's part of being on the asexuals spectrum. Um, and that I don't experience sexual attraction until I form an emotional bond with someone. Um, I'm 20 years old and I'm currently living in Wellington, um, studying at Vic Uni. So that's me. Uh, um I'm [00:01:30] Karen and II. I You see her pronouns, um, and identify as a lesbian. Um, I'm 46 and I'm from the UK. You probably hear from the UK. So a lot of what I talk about today will probably be about, um, my experience of growing up as a lesbian in the UK. But then also some thoughts About what? That's what it looks like in my mind here in New Zealand as well. So I live in Wellington, and, um, I was invited on this as part of, [00:02:00] um, part of the quarter bananas collective. So what was the lesbian radio show before? So that's just a few things about me. Um, hi. I'm summer. I use she her pronouns, Um, I identify as lesbian, but I also use the term queer it as a yeah. Um, and I'm 16 and I live in Auckland. Um, awesome. Hi. I'm Aria. I use pronouns I identify [00:02:30] as a lesbian, but I also like to use the term because it's cool. Um, I'm 18 and I live in that one. Awesome. Everyone um I forgot to introduce myself. I'm neo I use, or they then pronounce I also identify as a lesbian. And, um so we'll get on to our first question. Um, what was your journey to claiming the term lesbian, And why do you use that term to describe your [00:03:00] identity? Uh, OK, so I sort of like a two step thing. First of all, I'm I'm young and I'm growing up. And when I grow up, even though I'm 37 I feel still quite young. But I'm like, twice the age of most of the other panellists. So when I grew up in New Zealand, it was still, like, not cool to be, well, not even acceptable to be a lesbian or gay or anything like that. They they had legalised homosexuality. Um, but society hadn't really fully kind of normalised it [00:03:30] yet. Um, and I grew up in a bigoted household, so it took me until I was sort of 18, and I fell in love to to be like, Oh my God, I can't pretend that I'm not gay anymore. So that's when I first started identifying as a lesbian. And then, like a decade later, and I started, um, wanting to to have sex with men as well as with women and non-binary folk. I, um I went, Oh, yeah, that's that's important. And and I want to live my life authentically [00:04:00] so I would identify as bisexual as well. But I also am in a lesbian marriage, which is an open marriage. And so then I'm like, this is, like, literally, like, almost full time occupation. I, I So I'm so I'm so seldom bisexual that I'm like I'm lesbian, and I that's important to me. It's like I drink herbal tea all the time. That makes me a lesbian. Nice. So, um oh, God, It's, like, such a long story. So I'm really gonna [00:04:30] try and, like, cut it down. Um, but when I was about eight or nine years old, I think it was, um I was, uh, walking, uh, next to the Nelson airport. And Nelson is where I grew up, Um, with my friend Hope. And we were just, like, talking about how we just preferred women men. Um, and I was like, Yeah, I like I just really relate to this. Um, and, [00:05:00] um, she just turned around and just gave me a high five and said, Welcome to the lesbo club. And, um, that was just like the first instance of where, you know, suddenly there was an option other than heterosexuality. Um, but yeah, Then it took a few years because, um, you know, compulsory heterosexuality and all that. All that fun stuff. [00:05:30] Um, but then it was I mean, once, I kind of started seeing more lesbians. Um, both. Like, uh, fictional. And in real life, um, as I grew up, it was kind of like, Well, this is obviously what I am. Um, It took, I think, a little bit of time to actually accept the word lesbian. Um, because not many people [00:06:00] like around me, like in my friend circle, were using it. Um, the word bisexual was around, like, a lot. Uh, but lesbian was, um mostly, like, a dirty word. Um, and that, you know, it came with its own kind of, um, stereotypes. Um, but then it was like, Yeah, well, I am a lesbian. So, like, I'm gonna be a lesbian capital L kind of situation. Um, and [00:06:30] so I was just like, Yeah, this is This is my label This is what I'm gonna use from now on. Um, that was really interesting to hear Sophie, because there's some similarities in kind of my description as well, or my you know what I was going to talk about? Um, So when I first saw this question, um, what was my journey to claiming the term lesbian? And why do I use that term to identify? I suddenly did have a panic and think, Oh, maybe I'm being a fraud because, um, I kind of thought, actually, my journey [00:07:00] to using the term lesbian is probably is probably still ongoing, actually, um, a little bit similar to what Sophie was saying when I was, I guess, coming out when back in the eighties and early nineties in the UK. I was pretty comfortable that I was attracted to women and found that bit ok, was pretty comfortable with that, and pretty comfortable with talking to people about it, but not the word lesbian. And so for a long time, I and others around me kind [00:07:30] of the friendship group that I would have been in would have used, um, gay and described ourselves as gay women. And that was for quite a number of years, and to the point of probably really, really almost rejecting the term lesbian because it, for some reason, it just felt not comfortable. We weren't hearing that word, uh, talked about very much, Not much visibility around the term, and so almost actively trying to push the word away. Not really kind of wanting to identify with that particular word, but [00:08:00] identifying as, um being attracted to women and that that felt comfortable, but the actual term lesbian didn't. So, um yeah, so I still look at that question and think, Oh, have I been some kind of fraud? Because I think, Oh, as I've become older, I've kind of used the word more and will use it and say now that I identify as a lesbian, But it probably did take quite a long time. So, um, so I find the term really, really interesting because for me it did. And I think for a lot of people, um, certainly [00:08:30] the people I was socialising with, it felt an uncomfortable term. And, um and I still think there's a little bit of that now. So in in certain situations now, certainly a work situation I probably choose to not use the word lesbian and will describe myself as gay instead. So I do think there's a kind of change of the language for me anyway in different situations, because I still feel like if I use the word lesbian, there's often an uncomfortable reaction from other people, Uh, the term not being, [00:09:00] um, people just not being used to it. And I guess some kind of stereotype that goes with it. Um, so for me, the journey is probably ongoing, but definitely as I got older, I identified with the term and the word a lot more than I did when I was younger. So I have a, I think a bit similar, but that it's I'm still something that I'm figuring out. And like, I've realised that I'm the youngest person on this panel, so I still I think I have a while before I figure [00:09:30] out like, Oh, yeah, this is exactly right. Um, but yeah, I guess I would have been maybe 12 ish when I kind of started thinking that it might be a good time for me because I knew that I was attracted to girls. Sorry. Um, a bit, but I hadn't really again. Hadn't heard the word before. Um, so it did take a while to kind of figure that out, and a lot of that [00:10:00] was through, um, the we had it doesn't exist anymore, but we used to have a really good kind of a QS a at school that had a lot of resources that helped me a lot with coming to terms and trying to figure out, um, like, what was the right word to use, So I am still figuring it out. But that's something that helped me become comfortable with using the word they've been up until now. [00:10:30] Well, I don't have the best memory of what sort of prompted me to start questioning, Um, for for a long time, I thought that I only sort of started questioning my sexuality around the start of high school. But then I sort of remembered this time that, um I don't know, I was probably, like, 12 or something like that, but I was at a sleepover with some friends and I came out to them. It wasn't great, but anyway, um and I came out to them as vicarious because that just felt [00:11:00] like a comfortable thing for me to use at that time because I was questioning and I knew that I was probably attracted to women. But, you know, like, um, yeah, so I. I sort of used by or by curious, just sort of for myself. While I was still questioning because it felt like, I don't know, I was honouring my attraction to women without having to sort of commit to, um, a word like lesbian. [00:11:30] That kind of felt a bit scary, you know? Um yeah, II. I identified as bi for, um, quite a few years, and then I went through a few complicated labels, sort of trying to incorporate men into my identity in the smallest way possible. I think one of the labels I used was, um, pan romantic, sexual, gay. And I didn't include lesbian in their identity at all, but, um, yeah. Oh, by the way, Love sexual. I think [00:12:00] it's, um, if I remember was you feel sexual attraction until it's reciprocated. So that was sort of like how my comp it works with men, I guess. Um, yeah. And then I think when I was 17, I was just sitting sitting down and like, actually, I don't think I am attracted to men, and I'm just trying to convince myself that I am because I feel like I should be. [00:12:30] And, um, I don't know if there was really much that convinced me to start using the term lesbian, but I just decided at that moment that I was going to use it, even though it was hard, because it felt like it was a thing that represented me the best. Um, I sort of describe myself as gay a little bit, but I really tried to use lesbian, even though I kind of it did feel like a bit of a dirty word. But, um, I knew that it was It felt right, and I wanted to use it because it's not a dirty word. Um, [00:13:00] yeah, so I've been using that, and it makes me feel proud to be a lesbian. I am using that, and it makes me feel like I'm a part of a a really awesome community. Yeah, and that's me awesome. Some great journeys here, and I think some good points raised that it's for a lot of us. It is still a journey It's still an ongoing thing. And, you know, this could change, or it could stay the same, and I think that's pretty cool. Um, so [00:13:30] I I had a bit of a crisis before I identified as a lesbian. For a few years, I've always been like, Oh, I want to be a lesbian. So bad, Like it just seems so cool. Um, like, I really admire every lesbian as a person. And then I was like, Hang on. I had this moment of Hang on. Why can't I be a lesbian? Um, there are non binary lesbians, So why can't I be one of them? And then I identified as a lesbian. So, um, next question, what are your thoughts on lesbian visibility? [00:14:00] Why is it important? Do you think there is enough of it? Um, for me, this is quite a tricky question. So I'll I'll try to keep it short because I'm not sure what my thoughts are on lesbian visibility and with or whether there's enough of it, II, I would I would just have to acknowledge that we're at a little bit of a difficult junction in history at the moment around. Um, some people trying to kind of ring fence in what being a lesbian is. And so they want lesbian visibility, but only for a specific, [00:14:30] narrow little minority type of lesbian. And I just think if you feel that you are a lesbian, then you're a lesbian and that's that, like full Stop. And also you shouldn't be limited to just that one label. Um, as a lot of, um, other panellists have expressed in myself that there's like you can You're a complex person so you you can be lesbian Plus other stuff. Um, but I think that it's really important that we push back [00:15:00] against that ring fencing of what lesbian is. So I think that progressive lesbian visibility is really important and, like diverse lesbian visibility is really important. And obviously, it sounds like there's still quite a lot of shame for people, Um, that they have to fight in order to claim the term lesbian, Um, and so visibility should hopefully help to counter that as well. And yeah, I just think there's probably people [00:15:30] out there who are perhaps not very political at all, and they just identify as lesbian, and then they get faced with whatever kind of shaming, um, stereotypes and things that society throws at them. So if they do get to see just positive representations of lesbians, um, of all kinds of all different kinds, then that that would be really good for them, I would think. Yeah. And this was a bit of a tricky question for me as well. But, um, when I was reading it, [00:16:00] I got reminded of when I was talking to someone who identified as a lesbian, Um, someone who was quite older than me. Um and she thought that lesbians were a dying breed because she saw the younger generation. Um, and, uh, I guess she she didn't see as many lesbians because, um, there's there's [00:16:30] so many more labels now, I guess, was her kind of stance. And, you know, she saw these like bisexuals and pansexuals. And she was like, But where are all the lesbians? Um, and same thing for, like, people. When I ask them, like, how many lesbians they know? Um they say like, Oh, I don't know any or they say, like Ellen DeGeneres, like, that's like, just like the one lesbian, but that's ever existed. So it's just a DeGeneres. [00:17:00] Um, so I? I don't know. It's an interesting question. Um, I do think they should maybe be a bit more of, um I think good lesbian visibility. Um, because this comes up in a later question, But there are a lot of harmful stereotypes, um, and myths, which just is so wrong. And it's like, this isn't this isn't good for the Like, [00:17:30] I guess, the lesbian image, Um and, yeah. I don't know. A bit of a tricky question for me, I think, Uh, yeah, I guess, um, echoing a bit that the other that creek and Sophie have already talked about In a sense, I think, in the kind of short answer for me to the question of, um, do we think there's enough lesbian Vili Visibility is no. And I think we're you know, certainly the discussion so far is about lesbian via visibility needing [00:18:00] to be much broader than I guess, the stereotypes that may have been we may have got used to over time and in the media and so on, and that maybe that's lesbian visibility. And I know both of you have just kind of alluded to there being maybe thoughts of lesbian visibility needs to be a certain thing. It's a certain look. It's a certain particular group of people. But the fact that we've all most of us have all talked about still the term lesbian still being something that people are still feeling uncomfortable about. [00:18:30] And so I'm a bit I'm quite surprised at that talking as the the oldest lesbian on the group, Um, but and so I did think, Ah, that that must have changed, and I'm sure it has changed. Um, but I'm still hearing people on this panel talk about the uncomfortableness of that word. So I guess in that sense, um, there isn't much lesbian visibility if we're still talking about people on this panel and whoever we're talking to feeling quite uncomfortable about the term, [00:19:00] So I guess definitely feel like, Well, the there there does still need to be more lesbian visibility, whatever that looks like. There's definitely the broadness and the diversity of it. But just the fact that we may be saying, Oh, there's still a slight uncomfortableness about using the term and, um, being open about being a lesbian. Then, um says to me that, yeah, that there certainly does seem to need to be more lesbian visibility, whatever that looks like. [00:19:30] Yeah, I. I agree with a lot of what's just been said, Um, I think it is really important to have that visibility and have, like, people in the media that we can see and identify with, Um, I think that that I am starting to see more of it, but I don't really think there's enough still and part of that, actually something that I was thinking about when I saw this question [00:20:00] is that there's for the amount of, um, representation of like gay couples in the media, that there's still not a lot of like You might see things, um, a lot of representation for other diverse identities. But then there's still not a lot in comparison of lesbians, and it's just, yeah, [00:20:30] it maybe it's related to gender equality as well. But it's just that it's great that we're accepting all of these other identities, but just there's just a little bit of a gap in terms of being a lesbian, and I think it would be great to see more of that. Yeah, I think in terms of representation in media especially. There's a lot of focus on making lesbian representation palatable to others when it's not [00:21:00] our purpose as people to be palatable to up to others. Um, we're diverse people. We're sorry, stutter. We're, um, diverse people individually. And we're a, um, a diverse community together. And I think it's really important that we have accurate representation for, um the intersectionality and everything like that inside the lesbian community. Um, this sort of in terms of TV um, anything [00:21:30] like that. There's a lot of cookie cookie cutter moulds, um, in terms of lesbian relationships. And yeah, I think it would be really, really great to have, um, more diverse representation. Um, and I think that's important. Because when we see ourselves represent, uh, represented, um, around us in life, on TV in terms of celebrities, whatever, um, it's easier to accept them. And [00:22:00] once we're able to accept others, it becomes easy to accept ourselves. So, um, yeah, I think it's really important, and they definitely should be a bit more. Wow, just some amazing points from everyone. I. I definitely agree that we need not only more, um, representation, but more positive representation. So stuff where we're not the lesbian on screen isn't cheating on people. They're not, um, they don't die. In the end, they're not a terrible person. Just [00:22:30] those sorts of things. Um, next question is, are there any myths or stereotypes about being a lesbian that you'd like to bust? So we've touched on this a little bit, but, um, if you'd like to go more in depth, Um well, my my own experience, I guess it's kind of an offshoot of being a lesbian is being butch. So it's more of a butch gender stereotype. But it is often very closely bound up with a lesbian stereotype, because [00:23:00] I guess a lot of stereotypical lesbians are butchers. Maybe so there's that that not all lesbians are. But, um, and and but then also just like that, Butch people are not kind of like aggressive. They don't always take the traditional man role in a for example, a butch family relationship. Um, and I would yeah, like I'm really soft. I'm really submissive. I'd really love to see, like that whole stereotype [00:23:30] that butch as a gender means any one particular thing kind of busted, like the idea that any like that any gender has to do any particular thing to be that gender. That would be really great to be busted. So just Yeah, but softness is a thing, and Bush submission sexually is a thing. And, yeah, that's all from me. I mean, there's just so many myths and stereotypes that I just think need to be [00:24:00] because, like, they, I mean, if that if you are researching into being a lesbian and you find all of these, um, portrayals of lesbians in a certain way and you know they have all these stereotypes, it can be really harmful, because then you think that you need to be this certain way, um, in order to actually be like a lesbian and when it's just not true. Um, something I would really like to be busted personally. Is this this whole idea? [00:24:30] That seems to be, um, like sis girls, like all the lesbians ever in the world are pursuing them, and they want to convert them to lesbianism. And it's like it's like, Oh, my God. And they, like all we want to do is just, like have sex with them. And it's like also like as a demisexual lesbian, like I sometimes don't even want to have sex with, like, other lesbians, like anyone, like, leave one with, like, straight girls like Oh, [00:25:00] but yeah, that's just like for me, Like, definitely, like, not sexualizing lesbians and not, um, fetishizing lesbians And just like, taking out that whole aspect of it. Yeah, um, I agree with a lot of what's been said so far. I guess for me, particularly the, uh, some of the stereotypes that go with, um, being particularly butch, um, it's gonna be a constant source of disappointment for me [00:25:30] that I can't use power tools. I just thought it would happen naturally. And it never had. So those kind of but those kind of, um, stereotypes. Yeah, they, um, are frustrating. Uh, and it'd be great to that'll be my stereotypes to bust. Yeah, Yeah, I'm just going off what Sophie said about, like, losing representation and then thinking that you need to be a certain way that you see portrayed. I think that can also be harmful in that [00:26:00] if you're still coming to terms with your identity and, you know, think wondering whether you are a lesbian or whether that's the right term. If you see the very stereotypical portrayal, and that's not how you act. Then it can be quite invalidating to see that like, Oh, I don't act that way. Therefore, I can't use the term lesbian. Um, and that can be, you know, quite harmful for someone who's figuring [00:26:30] out their identity, if that's all they see. So I think that's yeah, that's something that should change. Um, yeah. So my first thought for this one was actually quite similar to creeks. Um, and it was that not every single lesbian relationship, um, is but for them or for Butch and yeah, because everyone's identity and everyone's presentation in terms of those things [00:27:00] are different. And, um, there isn't any certain mould that, um, a lesbian or a lesbian relationship should be should be fitting into or should have to fit into. Yeah, and, um really, on what some said exactly. Um, if If all you see, um of the community is I don't know. Um but just who can use power tools or people who know everything about astrology and you don't know things [00:27:30] like that or you don't enjoy things like that. It can feel very invalidating, like I can't be a lesbian because I can't use a power tool. And I don't know things about astrology. 00, dear. Um, when in reality it's, um the whole community is this big community of lots of different people who enjoy doing lots of different things and present in lots of different ways and identify in lots of different ways. And, um, it can take a while to find exactly where you fit there. But, um, if if you [00:28:00] feel like you need to or you feel like, um, identifying as a lesbian fits you, then it does and you belong in the community. And it's really hard to figure that out when there are so many stereotypes, sort of running us down. And, um, the other factor that a lot of female and non-binary sexuality is, um, assumed to be catered to men. So it's it's very, um, it can be hard to discover that you are a lesbian when, [00:28:30] um when you realise that Oh, my goodness, my sexuality isn't about men. For the most part, Um, yeah, I don't know if that made sense, but that's me. Definitely made sense. Well said, um I know, I've said this, like, three times already. But so many great points here, Um, 11 stereotype that hasn't been brought up. That's, um a very recent one is the idea of a useless lesbian. [00:29:00] Like if another lesbian called me that, um, in a joking way, maybe I'd be OK with it. But, like, if a if, like, a non lesbian called me that I'd be like, Excuse me, but yeah, I think it's a pretty the idea that all lesbians are bad at romance. I think it's a bit of a upsetting one. Um, OK, uh, do you have any favourite lesbian representation in media or lesbian icons? I just like to say I'm sorry. [00:29:30] I'm sorry to hear that about useless lesbians. That's brand new to me. I've never heard that before, And I'm I'm sorry that it's coming at you. Younger ones. Um, what a load of shit. Um, favourite. Sorry. Favourite lesbian representation in media or lesbian icons. That's the question, isn't it? Um, yeah. I really loved the L word generation Q. I don't know if people have seen that, um, back in my day, we actually liked the L word as well, But if we looked [00:30:00] at it now I'd be like, No, it's problematic in all kinds of ways, but the L word generation Q um, they've obviously made a special effort to include, like, people of colour, uh, trans lesbians, trans people who are not lesbians, just like more broader queer identities that aren't often seen so much in mainstream television. There's butch lesbians, which notably there were not that many butch lesbians in the original L word, Um, and also on Neon TV. Same same whatever you call it. [00:30:30] Platform thing is, um, a show called Work in Progress, which is just Yeah, it's about this very, very butch dyke who then kind of gets like, sideswiped by falling in love with a young trans man and then their relationship. And also she has O CD. So it's just funny, like it's a great show, but it makes me so mad. She's terrible as well. I don't necessarily recommend it, but yeah, I've [00:31:00] I've found that on Neon TV. There are some great representations, I think, in terms of favourite lesbian representation in media, um I mean, I like growing up. I had quite a few. Um, but then a lot of them died and got killed off. So, like, yeah, which is not a great thing to see. So I'm not gonna just mention any of them, because, yeah, it hurts when you identify with someone [00:31:30] or with their character so much and then, you know, and especially when you're young and they kind of become, like a lifeline, and then they just die. And that's just gone from your life. It's just it's Yeah, it's really painful. But, um, I will stay with positivity here. Um, currently, um, I don't know if any of you watch it, but, um, gentleman Jack is the one that I am really, really loving. Um, it's about Anne [00:32:00] Lister who is just iconic in every single way possible. Um, and it's set in, like, 18. Uh, I think it starts in 18. 49 that it starts. Um, so it's, like, very much, um, I think affirming to, you know, go back that far. And there was this, um, this this just absolute lesbian. Just an absolute icon. [00:32:30] Um, what's it streaming on? Um, what do I what I use, like my flatmates boss's thing to watch it, which is called Plex, but, um I'll see if I can find it. Uh, it might be on light box or something like that. I will. I will get back to you on that. Um, but, uh, and in terms of lesbian icons, um um, And, [00:33:00] um, I also like very much. This isn't, like, confirmed or whatever, but like, um, if any of you know the goddess Artemis, Um, like, I definitely read her as a lesbian. Um, so, yeah, like, Oh, and like, Haley kioko, um, I don't know. Yeah, people know her, but yeah, I just Yeah, I just like love lesbians. [00:33:30] Um, that's hard to follow Sophie when she just ended saying, I just love lesbian. Where do I go from there? Um, yeah, I'll just to mention, I guess to again speaking as a, um, slightly older lesbian on the panel. The kind of the people that we sometimes refer to, but stereotypically like Ellen and like Katie Lang. And I just mentioned because actually, at the time they were quite mind blowing when there were not many lesbian representations around. And, [00:34:00] um, so for me that there is people now that have kind of taken on a whole other persona and that they're often used quite negatively and and things like that. But actually at the time, especially someone like Ellen where we were kind of watching it, thinking I think she might be a lesbian. But at that point, she hadn't come out. And then for Katie Lang to then, you know, be so kind of out there and looking different and being so open, they were quite mind blowing at that point that that they that they would be there. And, you know, I'm sure for hundreds and thousands of people, [00:34:30] they were something to hang it on and think, Oh, OK, the lesbians are out there. So, um, I guess for me, though, you know, those kind of older, um, les icons kind of thing would be pretty significant. Um, And right now, um oh, the L word creek. I'll need to watch the new L word. Because when the L word first came out I I did not take it because we were me and my friends would watch it and think I don't actually relate to this. And, um [00:35:00] and, uh and somehow it became quite negative. It was like, Oh, I'm not living that life. And so I'm not cool enough. And I know the word is huge, and people love it. Um, but I have heard the new one is quite different. So, um, I might try that, and I recommended it, but more like, right now, I'm really loving some of the comedians. Really? Um, so people like Hannah Gadsby and kind of what they're doing, I guess, for just being able to talk about, um, lesbian culture and again just that visibility. So those would be a few [00:35:30] kind of thoughts for me. Really? OK, well, yeah, I'm not really sure about, like, icons. Exactly. But I do have, like, definitely places where I've seen lesbians just like out. Amazing. I ha ha Haley K, Of course. Um, there's a few I'm drawing a bit of a blank, but just lesbian musicians in general, it's just great to like when [00:36:00] you're listening to a song and it's a woman thinking about another woman, It's just it's just a great feeling. Um, yeah, I Oh, yes. King Princess? Yes, definitely. Um physio Oh, I just thinking about this. It's just great that there's more and more that there's so many. Yeah, so Yes. Please be musicians. [00:36:30] All of the ones in the comments absolutely love them. Great. Yeah. Um wow. Where do I start? Um, I definitely agree with Sophie that it's awesome to see, um, lesbian lesbian representation. That's been around for a long time. Like literally two days ago. I think I went on a research binge of, um, like, um, letters that women had written [00:37:00] other women. And I went down a bit of a rabbit hole. Sort of reading things that, like, um Radliff Hall, Emily, Dick Dickinson, Virginia Woolf. People like that had written their their lovers. And that was really nice to see, um, sort of these things that are 100 or more years old that actually kind of almost represent similar experiences to me. And I'm like, Oh, my gosh, I feel so validated. Um, so also great. We love definitely agree on art as well. Um [00:37:30] um, in terms of TV shows, um, and movies I'm not I'm not sure I always have a bone to pick with every single item of representation that I see. I'll find something wrong with it, just no matter what it is. But, um, I think I used to watch Supergirl, and I quite liked, um, Alex Danvers story on that. I don't know if anyone's seen it. I haven't watched it in a while, so I don't actually know how it turned out, but, um, yeah, that was [00:38:00] cool. Um, and also, everything sucks on Netflix. It's It's sad. Um, but it's It's I liked it. Yeah, um, and also Collette, um, that movie with, um, Kiera Knightley in it. Um, just a warning for that one is a bit sexual, but, um, it was It was It was a good one. I liked it. Um, I think at this point, my girlfriend would want to plug [00:38:30] Steven Universe. I don't watch it, but, um, it's apparently good, and yeah, I definitely agree with the musicians I personally love King Princess. And also, um, pussy riot in terms of some sort of, you know, angry, lesbian, um, singing, you know, that's nice to see. Um, yeah, that's really what I would say. Lots of great people to check out now on my list. [00:39:00] And can I, um, quickly just like, add something? Sorry. Like, real quick. I just want to show everyone my shirt. I've seen this and I love it. Got all of, um, like ships on it of, like, queer women. They've got, like, Clark. Alexa from the 100 Did not watch that be Lauren from law girl Nicole and Waverly from Earth and a from from black Elena. And from one day at a time, David and saw from, um super girl like aria [00:39:30] mentioned Carmela and Laura, which is Carmela, the Web series about a lesbian vampire. If any of you are into that, um, Kelly and Arizona from Grey's Anatomy Sarah and Ava from Legends of Tomorrow Rot and Shaw from personal interest Alex and Piper from orange is the new black emmaline. And Kate from everything sucks I can't read that. Oh, I'm Anita and Nomi from, um which, uh, Nomi is a Trans woman and Ana from the bold type [00:40:00] and Vivian from everyone but you and Willow and Tara from both the Vampire Slayer. So there's more. Just another great list. So many good things to check out. Coming um honestly, anything. I just I have a lot of lesbian icon characters that aren't actually lesbians. I just decide they are randomly because I want them to be Um, next question is, are there any symbols that have been important [00:40:30] to you as a lesbian? Um, I Well, I When I look back at my childhood photos, I'm like there's at least two of my class photos I'm wearing basically the trans flag, which hadn't even been invented yet at that stage. So I, I really love pink and blue and white together. Um, I used to really actually love the pink Triangle like I think I like pink and I like triangles. But today, unfortunately, it's kind of been sullied by like it. It's it's become perhaps a symbol that, [00:41:00] um, used by those like Ring fence, fence it off like the lesbian police who don't want anyone to be a lesbian. They just only want the people that they've given permits to to be lesbians. And so it's kind of now, maybe more of a dangerous symbol. Um, and it's really sad. I missed that just being kind of like a cool dyke symbol. So that's it, really. That's all I got to say. I think the first thing I really identified with was like the rainbow flag, [00:41:30] Um, and like rainbows in General, I was like, Oh, this is gay now, Like cool. Um, And then I found out that there was a lesbian flag, and I was like, Oh, cool. What's this about? And then I found out that the lesbian flag that I saw, uh, which is, like, um, I don't know if everybody here knows that, like the lipstick lesbian flag. Um, it originally had, um, like, the lipstick mark in the corner. Um, and it's done in shades of, um, like red, pink [00:42:00] and white. Um, that was made by probably I would I like I'd say that she would be a member of the lesbian police. Probably. Um, so it's not really representative of our, um, of, like, our entire community. Um, so then I found out about the community lesbian flag, which is much more wholesome. Um, it's got, like, the orange in it as well as like, um, shades of pink. Um, so I think [00:42:30] I probably identify with that one a bit more now, but like rainbows is definitely still like very much like I play a starring role in, like, my decor and and like, the badges and pins I have and stuff like that. Um something else, which also this is a bit sad, actually, like all the I think of. Like, they've all been, like, a bit co-opted. But, um, the LA like the, um, double bladed battle. Um, [00:43:00] I think that's really cool. Um, and then violets. Um, because, um yeah, like from a line in a Sao poem. Um, like, her brow was adorned with violets or something like that. So it became a thing for like, if you, um, like like a woman, you would give her violets, Um, and also lavender. Um, this [00:43:30] one is a bit more like obscure, but, um, back when, like, the red scare was happening in America, Um, and everybody was like, Oh, communism, um, lesser known as the lavender Scare, where it was like the whole kind of I guess, thinking behind it was that gay people were more likely to be communists because they could be blackmailed and therefore could be, um, you know, secret agents and stuff like that. [00:44:00] So, um uh, there's, like, this kind of been reclaimed, I guess. Like the term lavender menace. If any of you have ever heard about that or seen it, so yeah, those are my symbols, I think, um, yeah, I think, um, I found this one quite hard to think about. I guess I then probably thought I actually don't have many particular, um, lesbian symbols that I've ever thought about or identified with. Um, probably [00:44:30] because, um, it's been I've ended up kind of identify more with the rainbow. Kind of, um, images and symbols and things like that. Um, and maybe just kind of in my thinking about this question, it made me think, Oh, I wonder if that's part of the kind of almost wanting to stand a push away the lesbian part sometimes. Just the terminology. And like, over time, I just wonder if that's why I'm not hooked into lesbian symbols over time. Um, but yeah. So for me, that I I found that quite a tricky [00:45:00] question. And, yeah, nothing specific to kind of add to that really other than feeling like it's kind of been overtaken with the more of the rainbow imagery and more of the kind of broad gay community imagery than specifically lesbian. Yeah, I kind of agree there I. I mean, I'm aware of the lesbian symbols, but I generally prefer the ones, like just rainbows in general, that encompass the whole rainbow community. I think part of that is because [00:45:30] I don't have a lot of other like people close to me who are lesbians. But I do know a few who are, um, identify with other terms that fit under the rainbow umbrella. So I I like more the rainbow flag and rainbow ribbons and things like that because it's kind of a reminder that, like lesbian is an identity. But then it also fits into this whole big range of identities, and it makes me feel connected to [00:46:00] those other people, which I think is quite nice. Um, personally I. I do like the rainbow things, but I also, um, quite like the things that are more specific to lesbian and or and or other women loving women identities. Um, because it feels more personal to me. Um, it makes me feel presented because it is Oh, sorry. Represented because it is, um, accurate accurately representing me and who [00:46:30] I'm attracted to. How I identify? Um, yeah, if that makes sense. Um, I, I quite like the violet as well. That one. That one is a good one. and also, um, another line from a Saffo poem. It's not really a symbol, but just the term like girl sweet voice. It just resonates with me. I like it. Um, and yeah, in terms of the flags. [00:47:00] Um, I really like the orange and the pink one. that one feels feels really, really true to sort of my personal definition and understanding of being a lesbian. Um, just to clarify the one I have here, it doesn't have the lipstick mark on it. This was a gift from a very well mean friend. And I do I do kind of identify with that one as well, but I do prefer the, um, the one with the orange. Yeah. No lipstick marks here. Yeah, that's probably all I say. [00:47:30] Some some great points. I. I also agree I don't really relate to some of the lesbian symbols because I'm pretty new to identifying as a lesbian, so I'm still sort of getting used to that. Um does anyone have any? There you go. There's the quote. Sweet mother. I cannot. There's a good yeah, sweet mother. I cannot weave Aphrodites struck me with longing for a girl by a relate Big, big time. Um, does anyone have any questions for this wonderful panel of [00:48:00] lesbians that you have at your disposal to answer some questions? What's everyone slash anyone reading? Right now I am reading I'm Just About Finished, a book by Albert Wint, who's a New Zealand Samoan author, and it's called The Adventures of Vela. And it's been a really, really amazing, um, queer like pan queer kind of book. Uh, he just traverses. It's [00:48:30] an epic poem, so he like, It's not my favourite format of book. I prefer prose, but it's an epic poem. And, um, he just traverses the whole entire history of, um, both gender and sexuality from a Pacifica specifically, from a Samoan perspective, through through the story of who's a chronicler of like the Samoan gods and everything. And the goddess is presented, um, in a very [00:49:00] lesbian way. Although the word lesbian, I think it might be used once in the book, but he sort of steers clear of European kinds of labels for things most for the most part. But she's very recognisable, or she would I think she would be very recognisable, um, to to as well as to someone as a, um, queer female character. And yeah, just It's just full of queer characters, which is, um, it doesn't mention that on the back of the [00:49:30] book. So that wasn't why I started reading it When I picked it up. I was just like, Oh, yeah, Sounds interesting. I'll give it a go, and it's just like, Whoa, whoa, whoa. Why isn't this book famous and well known? Yeah. So I really recommend it. Yeah, Anything I'm reading, like I read these days, it's just uni work. So I have nothing to like, add like, maybe like the chapter of, like, issues with political theory on gender, like you. Maybe I could recommend that, but yeah, it's like I'm sad because I didn't [00:50:00] get to bring any of my book collection with me when I moved to Wellington. So they're all back in Nelson. 00, maybe fan fiction. There we go, accessible on the Internet, easily, like run shots. Or, like you can read like multi chapters. And you just like Chuck in a pairing and just go from there. So, um well, it's not really a lesbian book per se, but I'm I'm reading. Um the Hippopotamus by [00:50:30] Stephen Fry. It's all right, Um, but wouldn't wouldn't entirely recommend it. Um, other than that sort of dipping in and out of poetry books that are in my collection. You know, um and then after after I'm finished with that, I've got a book that's been sitting on my bookshelf for a while that I found at, like, a local sort of Higgins Higgins said second hand bookstore, um, called women on women three. I don't know if it will be any good, and I can't [00:51:00] remember who it's by, but, um, yeah, it's like a collection of lesbian and short stories. Yeah. I mean, yeah, this isn't a lesbian book either, but I just started reading Call me by your name. Um, because it's been recommended by quite a few people. And so, yeah, I don't have anything to say about it yet, but I'm hoping that it'll be quite good. I'm not reading it currently, but I have this book called Lesbian Studies in A [00:51:30] and I can't wait to read it. It sounds very interesting. Awesome. Well, thank you everyone for coming. Um, I think there's been some really great points and discussions talked about here. Um, big round of applause for our lovely panel of lesbians. Thanks, Aria. Thanks, Karen. Thanks, Sophie. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. That's great. Let's go. Lesbians, indeed.

IRN: 2941
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/cole_hampton.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004586
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089880
TITLE: Cole Hampton
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Cole Hampton
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2000s; 2010s; 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Avalon Television Studios; COVID-19 (coronavirus); Catholicism; Christchurch; Club Sandwich (Onslow College); Cole Hampton; Dame Edna Everage; Foxton; Freddie Mercury; Gender Minorities Aotearoa (GMA); Grim Reaper (advertisement); Grindr; HIV / AIDS; Hello Darlings with Pamela Hancock; Hugo Grrrl; InsideOUT Kōaro; Kelly Fornia; Mrs Brown; Mrs. Doubtfire; Onslow College; Pamela Hancock; Polly Filla; RuPaul Charles; Selina Simone; Shift hui; TVNZ (Television New Zealand); The Pajama Game (musical); The Sound of Music (musical); Topp Twins; Wellington; Wellington International Pride Parade (WIPP); Whitireia New Zealand; Willy Smack'n Tush; abuse; activism; bio queen; bullying; clothing; communication; drag; drag house; drag kings; drag mum; elders; gay; homophobic bullying; hui; invisibility; isolation; jazz; kindness; laughter; marginalisation; marginalised communities; musicals; performance; pride; queer straight alliance (QSA); racism; religion; secondary school; sexism; singing; smiling; social media; theatre; tucking; unionist
DATE: 19 March 2020
YEAR: 2020
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Cole Hampton talks about growing up, creating Pamela Hancock, Pride, and the start of the COVID-19 pandemic in New Zealand. Cole passed away on 8 July 2022.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, well, you heard it. There first. Here, folks. My name is Cole Hampton. Um, I born and bred in Wellington. Um, yeah, just, uh, currently Pamela Hancock from bulls. She's a 63 year old lady from bulls. Um, hugely based off, you know, the seventies and, you know, my own, um, woman in my life, but also a bit of a few men, Which is quite interesting where you know that's gathered. Um, [00:00:30] yeah. Um, I was raised by my mom as a sort of a solo mom. My dad went missing when I was about seven months old. Um, and his body was never found. Um, but yeah, just been living in Wellington all my life with my mom and a few cats over the years. Can you describe, uh, when you talk about kind of gathering bits and pieces from different people to form a personality? How that works? Uh, well, it's sort of I guess it's up [00:01:00] for interpretation because I don't I'm not necessarily an actor. I don't consider myself an actor more. I'm more of a a singer, and I sort of I think about it, You know, I take bits from everything don't look at one person when it comes to drag because it ends up just looking like the person that you've based it off. Um, so, you know, being singing jazz, you know, through high school and in my, you know, teeny pop years it it gave me the opportunity to say, Listen to a jazz standard like stormy weather And, [00:01:30] you know, here Len Horn's version EAL, Billie Holidays, Frank Sinatras and all these and you take these different inspirations. But it's different for everyone. You know, some people do it for just dress up and pride and just, you know, they just love a woman's frock and, you know, a good you know, pair of heels. Um, some people do it for comedy. Some people do it for the lip syncing, but what a lot of people don't know is that drag. [00:02:00] You know, there's a lot of theatre people that come to, uh, you know, the drag scene, and they have made a living for themselves through the drag scene, which I think is a, you know, really big testament to our performing society, not only in theatre in the straight world but also the Queer World and it gives, you know, drag. That's great for a lot of, um, queer people who have come from the theatre and want to take their performance somewhere else. So it really you can really push to set [00:02:30] a standard and drag. And I think that's already been done in Wellington, you know, by many wonderful, you know, drag performers California Hugo Girl Willie Macintosh Polly filler. Um, Selena Simone There, there are a lot and that have come over there. So I've only been in the drag scene for about coming up three years in September. That's when I started Pam and became a gay. Really, I guess, um, it's just, you know, So the first time [00:03:00] I walked into a gay bar was the first time I performed as Pam. And so I didn't I didn't know a soul. I didn't know an absolute soul. And I saw this little old lady toddling on down. You know, I didn't even have my wig straight. I didn't discover a hair brush. It was My friend was doing my makeup and, um, no one. No one really said a word to me until I went on stage talking as Pam and doing all that. And then suddenly it was just like Bam there it was because before you know, I was doing musical theatre [00:03:30] at and that didn't work out. And, you know, I focused more on singing. And then comedy just sort of came out. You know as well as because I don't read books. It's terrible as a you know, sort of writer that I don't read a lot of books. It's more. I'm more. I like to listen, you know, because you can say a lot more, I think, by speaking it and sort of necessarily telling it in a book. It's just I'm I'm just a very visual person. So you know, I can, you know, a picture [00:04:00] paints 1000 words sort of thing. Now we've covered a lot of ground just in in that three minutes, and I'm just wondering just to to kind of go back on that a wee bit. And I guess first of all, um, talking about how you identify how many of you you words used words like drag former. I mean, female impersonator. What? How would you How would you identify? It's interesting because, um, there's been you know, no [00:04:30] one's really asked the question If Pam's a drag queen or not, I consider I mean, a lot of and I, you know, when it comes to, you know, being in the drag, saying you're going to get a lot of slack and a lot of shade thanks to Bru Paul's drag race and reality television. Um, yeah, the I I someone said to me, You know, Pam's not a drag queen. She's not tall. She's not pretty. She doesn't glue down her brows. She doesn't tuck, she doesn't. And I think that's when, [00:05:00] um, that becomes very disrespectful to women. And I think women especially I think women are very badly treated in the queer community because of the work that they've done and things that they have seen and someone and I I consider myself a drag queen. I mean, a woman isn't measured by the size of her breasts or the size of her arse. Um, it's measured by the her heart. And you know, a lot of gay men who I assume started [00:05:30] off in the drag scene who were cut off by their families cut off by their friends, especially around the AIDS crisis where they had to be playing mum. Um, you know, now we have drag moms and drag houses, which again is a, uh, for me, it's a colonisation thing because we're taking it from queer people of colour who were kicked out and this was in New York. And now it's become this trendy thing, and it's quite sad to see that because [00:06:00] it dampens my faith on our people. Know our history not only, you know, as drag performers, but also working in nightclubs, um, marching and parades. And we we we don't have that in our generation, we we've only got social media, which makes things evidently a lot worse because there's a lack of communication, a lack of knowledge that we can pass on. But we we're not willing to go back [00:06:30] and look and say, Well, we're actually sitting on the shoulders of these really great people. They're not sitting on our shoulders, you know, Um, but there's there's different types of drag. There's, you know, that have just started springing out, you know, drag kings, bio queens. Um, you know all sorts, and that's the great thing about drag. And especially in Wellington, where it is very, um, you know, you can do anything you want, and it's all about experimentation. And that's the great thing [00:07:00] about, you know, performing. You know, you do it for the love of it. You don't do it for the money. And, you know, the day I hear that you know someone's doing it for the money is the day I quit. You know, I think you know, you do it for the love of it. And you know, of course, it's a hard, you know, um, circumstance to be in, but with drag, I think I'm a drag queen. I'll I'll call myself a drag queen. Um, I'm not tall or pretty. It's old lady drag, which we don't see anymore, [00:07:30] Really? And it's, um, that we have you know, we've had Mrs Doubt fire Mrs Brown, um, Dame Edna, uh, and the top twins as well. You know, the top twins are a huge part of the drag community, but these people don't know, and it it it's It's a bit of a shame, really, because, you know, we what I've found throughout because I'm a lover of history, I'm an old bugger at heart. But I think, you know, to look, to look [00:08:00] forward, we have to look back as well and see how much has been done. But how can we make it safer? So I'm really interested in how you educated yourself in all of this history. And I'm wondering if we can first of all, go back to a thing you said. Where you You said you you became gay? Um, three years ago. And just, like, a bit more kind of background on to you and how that happened. And then how did you How did you get educated? [00:08:30] I was just given the assumption, You know, I was just given to say you're gay and I was like, I don't know, I hadn't thought about it. And I, You know, it's different. Everybody discovers their own sexuality. I didn't I dated girls in, like intermediate. Um, but I never thought about my sexuality. I didn't think about sex as a child. I didn't think about, You know, I just love dressing up like I dressed up in women's clothes all the time. You know, it would be from different characters of different. You know, TV shows [00:09:00] films, um, theatre. You know, like short and Street Woman short and street receptionist Joyce Myers, Suzie Kao, Maria von Trapp, Mary Poppins. Even doctor who, which is, you know, quite interesting. Now to see a woman, doctor. I'm just like, Oh, this is really cool. Then I can do something a little bit more. Um, but for me, I just dress up and my mom just let me, you know, it was just dressing up, but I didn't I didn't think about being gay or being homosexual or being [00:09:30] Trans. You know, I just I did it for the love of it. And my mom really supported it. Supports that. And she's always been a good supporter. But, um, with being gay, I was just sort of given it. And then I came to my own realisation, but it was sort of under pressure because it was high school and high school is very political, and everybody just assumed I was gay. And so I just came out as gay, and for some reason, it fit like a glove. Now, what kind of year was this? [00:10:00] This was when I was about 14. 15. And so what? What year? Like 4014, I guess 14. Yeah. Um, And also around that time when I was just sort of discovering my own sexuality and my own sort of creative freedom and where I can put that not only in singing and acting, but also, you know, dressing up in some funny, weird clothes. You know, like leather pants to school, like gay. That's gay. [00:10:30] That's gay. And, you know, they never fit. And it was all this stuff. But then I, you know, at the time, I was also, you know, under domestic abuse, um, which was very hard. And that was that came from a very The person came from a very homophobic point of view, and he took his anger out on me a lot of the time. Um, and it was verbal, but, you know, which is harder to sort of clarify [00:11:00] or justify? Um so that gave me a lot of strength as well as a lot of things, you know, that have given me the strength to do the things that I can do, especially in the queer community. I've You know, I it just seems, you know, when I think about it, it's it's I'm very lucky to be a part of the gay scene, and I didn't think about it. And as soon as I started looking into it, the only knowledge I had until I was about 20 or 19, [00:11:30] I only had knowledge about Freddie Mercury in the AIDS crisis. And then I started looking at that, and I and it really made me think about you know what people did, especially drag queens and how they sort of protected that the smaller minority and younger gay people who were evidently kicked out, who were evidently beaten up by police and were ignored by police and health officials. And what have you so drag queens have always [00:12:00] been that main front, and I like being on the main front. I like helping people and making people laugh. It's one of the things that I'm actually good at. I've realised, um, and it's and for me that, um, I can channel that into Pam really well, and it has gotten me into some really, you know, wonderful, you know, moments. And so far, um, being Pam. But I also think for [00:12:30] I just sort of came out. I didn't really dabble in grind. Or I didn't do any of that when I was in high school or before I started drag. I just didn't. And then it did. And then yeah, which has made things quite difficult because everybody knows me as Pam, you know? So they're always going to see the little Ginger Bob and the little you know, you know, big lips. You know that smile. I wish I could describe it, but I can't. It's just it's just a face. It's just a face. [00:13:00] You know, this this little old lady, and that's all people can see. Maybe it means I'm bad at makeup, I don't know, but it it's sort of It's really interesting to be in that position when you're a drag performer, you know, and you're doing old lady drag because it's not necessarily attractive. You know, there's nothing attractive about it, But there's an appeal. Um, so you know, I'm not again. I'm not tall or pretty. I don't have tits [00:13:30] out, you know, to kingdom come, I don't have a I don't pad. I don't tuck. I don't do any of that shit because it's not what I'm into, you know? And the woman I looked at came from a different era. You know, a lot of people drag queens. They look at Beyonce, Lady Gaga and you know, and that's that's pop culture, you know, And there's always gonna be pop culture. My pop culture is just dating a little bit back, but also just the suburban side. It's camping it up. It's Kiwi [00:14:00] and we've. And the New Zealand has always been good about that as well as Australia with Norman, Gunston, Dame Edna. And we've had the top twins for Dag and Diamond Li. But so that's where my inspiration comes from, as well as you know, Judy Garland, Barbra Streisand, Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, you know, and that's where those male influences come in. So when you were growing up, was it that kind of that you were surrounded with? [00:14:30] Yeah, Yeah, a lot. A lot. It was different scenarios. I sort of, you know, my I come from my mom's side of the family, is very Christian, very catholic. Um, but my mom was sort of the hippie. The one, but so I knew that one. These very privileged, you know, people you know, in a family where they they've they're talking about racial rights. They're talking about gay rights. They're talking about, you know, abortion and all that, [00:15:00] And I I've just sort of kept quiet. But then I see, you know, I met other people. I met really poor people, you know who are living in their beach houses because they couldn't afford a flat, you know, So you really I. I really understood. And I just sat and listened to a lot of these adult stories. It wouldn't necessarily even be eavesdropping. It would just be sitting and listening to your mom and you know, their friend talking. And you can [00:15:30] learn a lot about that. You know, you can, it's not. And it doesn't come from a scientific perspective, you know? Or, you know, uh, you know Cole Hampton's take on women because it's not a take on woman. It's so common that we don't need to talk about it. But when we see it, we smile and we feel good because it's homely. And that's what a lot of I think, I assume that a lot of older gay men went through. So do you think growing up that you were relating more to older [00:16:00] people rather than your your age group. Yeah, absolutely. Um, all the time, you know, listening to Frank sna singing Sinatra and, you know, knowing all this weird knowledge about New Zealand politics. And what does this 14 year old know about bloody Rob, Rob Muldoon Or, you know, the, um, the foreign exchange crisis, you know, and I just watched all that. I watched it all the time. All these old because I knew people also, you know, sort of mentors and friends [00:16:30] who worked in the old Avalon days at television. One who were, you know, really creative people. And, you know, it was a thriving business, you know, especially in Wellington and especially of that period. But, um, I just watched a lot of that old footage, and it just sunk into me, I guess. And that's how Pam was created. So what was it like, uh, being 14 year old at college? Yeah. Relating more to [00:17:00] older people. What was it like? Kind of being out and gay at that time. I was lucky. I was lucky, in a sense. But also, you know, I was pushed up against walls being had my bag thrown into bins and stuff and people threatening me. You know, these and that That was very hard. That was very hard. Um, and it made me very vulnerable, which it's put me in a few bad positions, but [00:17:30] high school, Really? For me On a whole, I looked back at it, and it was a really amazing experience. I, you know, I was a part of the, um, club sandwich QS A, which was a rainbow queer group that I discussed, you know, with a lot of people. And we had discussions about, you know, OK, how can we make how can we be more accessible to people who are homophobic? You just talk to [00:18:00] them, just talk and listen. And we had my friend who? The straight white guy, and he is very political and very loves to talk philosophy. And then someone there was like, Well, the the straight person can't be here. They can't be there. They can't do that. And and for me that I disagreed with them because this is someone who's actually willing to learn, and we're just pushing them away even more. We're not actually listening. We're not actually answering any questions [00:18:30] by shouting. And although on March you know, I can do a lot more but, you know, sort of silence and just lending in there is so important, I think, to what it means to move forward. What, uh what high school did you go to college? And we had a gay teacher there. He was the music teacher. I completely forgot about him. He was a very big part of my life. Um, just as a mentor, as a singing teacher, he was a brilliant [00:19:00] teacher and gay, and, you know, he really taught, I think, thinking about it. He really taught me what it meant, you know, to be a gay man. And he did that for a lot of people and, you know, knows about classical intelligent and just taught us about queer history. And I think, Yeah, he did. He did. And then I was just sort of discovered about Freddie Mercury and stuff. And you know how much of the gay scene is influenced [00:19:30] in music as well as performing and stuff? And I learned that through him, and he evidently sort of created Pam, which was, you know, originally Mabel Hancock. I added the Hancock name last, but it wasn't because it was rude. I was doing a school production of the Pyjama game, which was sort of fifties Doris Day musical. And since you know, all of we could we could not do American accents. And so we did it. We said it in 1954 [00:20:00] Fox and they gave me the female role, which isn't supposed to go to a man. Um, and I did Mabel and we made it into a drag character, and I found myself I only did it for about four months. We rehearsed for about four months and then did three nights of it, and it was sad. I cried when I had to let go. It felt like I knew that I created this woman and then just said, Well, why don't you push it? I'm like, Oh, yeah, maybe, I don't know. And I sort of forgot about little old Mabel who was much prettier [00:20:30] and much more domesticated fifties housewife, um who were hugely based off. You know, my nana as well and just, you know, because I would sing in retirement homes and I'd meet all these old ladies lovely old ladies and also men who would just, you know, do a quick wink and just that's all they would do. And the woman would be like, Oh, you're absolutely lovely, you know? And all this, all that shit. So would this be singing in drag or singing? No, no singing as myself. So I was a singer as myself for many [00:21:00] years. Yeah, And then Pam came up just out of the blue. I bumped into someone who I went to rail with, and they were a drag king. And they said, Oh, you should do drag here. And I'm like, Oh, I don't know, maybe. And, um, the manager of Ivy, the owner. Now he said, Oh, we should try and get you that, you know, get you down here. And, um, he gave me his card, his number. And then we talked to said, Well, there's a show coming up called Clash of the Stars. It was produced by California, and I had no idea [00:21:30] about drag. And this one guy that I was singing, who was a bit of an asshole he said, Oh, yeah, you lose the competition. If you don't do your own makeup So I called up this naive kid. I called Kelly up on the phone. I said, um, hi. Um, is it true that you can't You know, you have to do your own makeup, Otherwise you're disqualified. And I said no. Where the hell did you hear that? You know, So it was quite it was going into a quite a hostile environment as well Going into that [00:22:00] and I've never had a political agenda. When I've worked my main goal, someone said to me, Every drag, every person that does drag is an activist, Yes, but, um, your activism doesn't come with a doesn't need to come with a flag or a sign or a newspaper print. You know, it can come through a laugh. It can come through a good time as well, and we've seen so many bad times as a queer [00:22:30] community. But again, there comes this one great day, which is pride, and that's when everybody should feel together and feel loved and feel proud. And this year I didn't feel it because, of course, with the, um, open letter with whip and you know, it's for me. It was more of a thing. We need to communicate this and nobody was communicating it. And what was the, uh, Wellington International [00:23:00] Pride parade? And the The letter was about boycotting the parade. So there was a letter from various groups including, um, gender, minorities, saying that they felt and a number of people in the community felt that the parade wasn't by for and about the Rainbow Communities. No, it wasn't. It wasn't. Um what do you think that the parade wasn't I don't think it was No, it was a tourist attraction when [00:23:30] I got to it. Anyway, um, they asked me to host and I said yes. On the account of one on one account that, you know, we get Wellington performers and I said, there needs to be communication, you know? And there isn't a lot of representation of those gender minor of gender minorities, um, and those other organisations and it's affected a lot of people this division and it's affected performers, gay [00:24:00] men, lesbians, trans people. But for me, it affected. It affected me as a member of the queer community because I don't like drama, but I still get caught up in it because we are all a part of the feeding of that, Um, but it's never been my agenda to make people angry. It's to [00:24:30] make people feel happy, which I think is, you know, one of the first steps about talking it through. And that's what I've sort of tried to do with Pam. I guess what originally wasn't. But then I realised, you know, the sort of impact that you know a performance can have. You know, I, um there was one I performed at the inside out shift out in, and I did this concert [00:25:00] and someone had sent me a sketch that they did of Pam, and they posted it on their instagram, and it's it's they said today. I drew this on the day of my mother's burial, and they had lost their parent and they drew Pam, and I asked them why II? I was deeply moved by it because that that must mean something to people, and I don't take that lightly. I can't afford to, because [00:25:30] if I do, then everything else will fail. And what I'm trying to do as a performer is someone who believes in communication and who's a unionist, basically, um, and this person said, I asked this person why? I said, I know Pam just made me feel good that day and that that's a very moving, and that was very moving for me. Um, because as well as you [00:26:00] know, being a caregiver for my mom. It it changed the field. And then I wrote Hello darling's Pam solo show, and you know it. It was really good. I just finished with the fringe, Thank goodness, just before COVID-19 and for me, the show had a completely different meaning because a lot of changed the last time that I did it, which was up at Scott. And it was The show is Hello, darling's for me. It it was about [00:26:30] showing that vulnerable side of Pam and where those jokes come from, where her fantasies and where her imagination comes from. And it comes from me evidently, and people really believe she's a little old lady that will catch the shuttle down to bulls that has a husband called Trevor. And I knew that there was more of an impact, and it was one of the closing nights, I think, and Pam was about to, you know, was feeling quite sad after these amazing things that happened there was dead silence and it was quite [00:27:00] freaky. And I was walking, you know, up to the wedding photo that was on the stage. And, you know, someone a woman caught out your pa and I had to turn around and say, Don't ruin the delusion, you know, and which is, I think, and a lot of people loved it. And then I took the show down to Christchurch and there were these two women, these two, you know, they looked pretty miserable. And I thought, Oh, God. OK, all right. And then I did it and I was trying to feed [00:27:30] off them, try to do all that, and they were just not taking a bar of it until the very end where I finished with climb every mountain from the sound of music. And they were the first people to stand up for the standing ovation. And that was just like, OK, well, this is where do I take that now? And for me, it's a very interesting It feels like a political season, I think just because with the Pride Parade [00:28:00] being over in pride and fringe in the coronavirus, that we're gonna see, You know what real unity looks like this. Maybe this is a test, you know, And I think what we must do is just communicate, which is something I've always tried to do. Be kind because a lot of people have taken Pam's drag as offensive racist, uh, sexist. And I wouldn't be doing it [00:28:30] if I was homophobic or racist or sexist. You know, Pam comes from different people, even Maori women, even Samoan woman, you know, and that's that. That's very hard to explain. But when As soon as you see it, you're just like, OK, now I get it. And being Pam, it's I've had a small understanding of what it's like to be an older woman and walking up Courtney Place. Not being a tall, pretty drag queen, not with the [00:29:00] sound of the heels, you know, echoing down to the bottom of Courtney Place. I learned about invisibility, which is interesting because Pam just had the bulb in the glasses. Everybody just saw her as an old woman. That's what people see her as you know, they you know, Although she's up on stage, she'll still have to shove through it and still ask excuse me and that that's that's That's the bitter moment of it. [00:29:30] And that's the sad part that, you know, this little old lady is sort of, you know, but not, you know, being well looked after, say, that's the theory because we do see older women and we do see older people in bars. And we think, Oh, no, we won't deal with that. You know, we don't want to deal with that, but for me, and that's what hello darling did for me. It delivered this set aside that not only about my Dragon and about Pam's story, but about being a queer [00:30:00] person in an isolated environment, which goes for a lot of people in New Zealand who feel isolated in such a small country. And so, you know, writing the second show now a landfill majority. It's where Pam runs for Prime minister, and it's gonna be very interesting to where I can take it, because we've seen Pam at her vulnerable, sad size. But we've never seen her angry, which is, you know, something that is pent up over many years [00:30:30] of, you know, adversary or, um, drama, You know, not only in, you know, groups in your groups, but also family and whatever. So it'll be really interesting. And, you know, I did feel I have felt a real divide in the community, which is quite sad. It's quite sad, and we're not really trying to address it. You know, people aren't willing to meet, aren't willing to meet halfway. So how should we address [00:31:00] it? Well, I think a starts off really? Well, um, I think that's what we need because it's gotten to the point now where? Where? You know, one side is saying we're not gonna we don't want to be abused again, and the others are actually also trying to reevaluate this. But there are people in the system that are too tired because they feel like they've done enough by sending a post. Or we need an official a discussion. [00:31:30] You know, not a a Skype chat, an official discussion, which is always always clear. We need to have an official meeting and you know, a neutral on neutral ground with an official mediator, which I think is something even I pushed for. But it didn't go through because just because I there was only so much I can do my push, though, for it is just communicate. So what would your ideal [00:32:00] pride parade ideal pride Festival look like? Mm, I think, where everyone's just smiling. Um, I was marching in the parade and I felt so free, so good and so natural. Um, but then I felt this tinge of sadness because, you know, a lot of people I know weren't there, and that was quite sad [00:32:30] because they were celebrating their own pride, which is fine. That's more than fine. But it was just like, Why do we have to pride parades in such a small city? Why is that? And there's just sides not listening. It's just going one in one ear and out the other. It's interesting that I just go back to one of the things you said right at the start, which was, You know, we are in a social media age where we've got so much interaction. And yet there is such a lack of communication. [00:33:00] Absolutely. People can share a love heart or, you know, and it can mean the world to people how someone who goes on social media all the time. It means a lot to me. But Yeah, it's hard to explain. It's really hard to explain, and social media has made very bad people out of very good people. I think there's a lot of bitterness, but also that doesn't mean we we're not having fun. We're [00:33:30] having a good old time. But, um, coronavirus is going to affect the I think the queer community quite badly. Just because of, uh, social gatherings and drag shows being cancelled, a lot of theatre shows have been cancelled. Um, yeah, Let's just maybe talk about, um, COVID-19 coronavirus. We're now on the 19th of March 2020. 2020 nearly jumped ahead two years. Um, in New Zealand. Um, the [00:34:00] COVID-19 has just started having an impact over the last couple of weeks. It has been going kind of worldwide for a couple of months, and I think we're up to about 28 people infected. But, I mean, there have been some major things happening in the last week. In the last couple of hours, hour after hour. There's different news items. Can you give me a sense and maybe a sense for the people in the future what the feeling is like Now it's scary, and [00:34:30] it's sort of driven by the media again and social media. Um, there there's a lot. There's a lot of movies that people tend to watch people like movies like Contagion and World War Z and Zombies and you know, the end of the world. And you know, we've this the end of the world. Talk has been going on since the beginning of time. It's just always been like that, and we don't know if we're going to see a brighter day. But we [00:35:00] have all felt that way in our crisis. There is hope, but it's just about finding it and what we can do within our what we can do in our situation. We can't control everything. But what can we do for ourselves and the people around us? And the coronavirus has just made people scared, panicked about money, about jobs, about family, about the world, Um, [00:35:30] and now, with a lot of performance gigs, you know, for me, I'm a beneficiary as well. So it's, um it's bloody scary because a lot of our gigs have been cancelled. We don't know how long this is going to last, and we watch the news and, you know, it's just I've just stopped watching the news because it's just it's too much. I remember my mom, who I asked her about the AIDS crisis and how she felt. She was terrified. She got tested three times. [00:36:00] That's how scared she was. Not gay, Not at all. Um, but she was just scared, and she used to sit in her cupboard and rock because she was so terrified of it. That's what the media does. And they did it with, you know, aids as well. You know, you see that horrible one with the Grim Reaper with the bowling ball. That's media that's turning it into fear. Do you think the marginalisation and kind of isolation of people in the Rainbow Communities, uh, will [00:36:30] increase with with things like covid? It depends. I don't really know about COVID-19 as much as you know, that first discovery I had of it was just seeing random people in China just dropping to the floor dead, that that was scary. And then tonnes of people said, Oh, no, it won't be anything. It won't be anything. And it was, you know, I I think that we are [00:37:00] gonna be marginalised again and again and again and again. And now we see with Donald Trump and the silent majority, they are dominating. How do we do that? What do they do it for? They do it out of anger and look what it brings. Look what it causes. Look at the social impact. Look at the whole idea of it, and then look at gay people and we're starting to take that anger now, and [00:37:30] it's scary.

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TITLE: Queer Objects
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VOICES: Chris Brickell; James Brownhill; Roger Swanson; Tony Reed; Will Hansen
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; Air New Zealand; Alf Kaiwai; Alison Oram; Amanda Littauer; Barry Reay; Ben Anderson-Nathe; Bev Roberts; Carina Pasquesi; Carl Wittman; Carmen Rupe; Chris Brickell; Chrissy Witoko; Christopher Castiglia; Christopher Reed; Claire Regnault; Collections Online (Te Papa); Craig Middleton; Daniel Brandl-Beck; Diane Johns; Dino Hodge; Donald Friend; Elise Chenier; Erica Rand; Evergreen Coffee House; Frank Lund; Freda Du Faur; Geoff Braybrooke; Graham Willett; Grant Robertson; Greg Minnisale; Heike Bauer; Helen Pausacker; Hugh Young; James Brownhill; James Burford; Jane Trengrove; Jeffrey Vaughan; Jo Campbell; John Howard; John Hunter; Johnny Croskery; Jools Topp; Judith Collard; Jutathorn Pravattiyagul; Kate Davison; Kath Khangpiboon; Katherine A. Hermes; Katsuhiko Suganuma; Lauren Britton; Lois White; Lukasz Szulc; Lynda Topp; Marcus Bunyan; Margo Hobbs; Matt Cook; Melissa M. Wilcox; Mika X; Muriel Cadogan; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; Nadia Gush; Neil Bartlett; Neil McConaghy; Nikki Sullivan; Norman Jones; Oscar Wilde; Paerau Warbrick; Peter Sherlock; Peter Wells; Philip Hughes; Pink flight (Air New Zealand); Pink washing; Queer Objects (book); Rachel Hope Cleaves; Radclyffe Hall; Reina Lewis; Richard Bruce Parkinson; Robert Aldrich; Robert Gant; Robert Mills; Roger Swanson; Saint Eugenia; Sappho; Shirleene Robinson; Simon Clay; Stephanie Gibson; Tim Roberts; Timothy Willem Jones; Tirza True Latimer; Tony Reed; Topp Twins; Trevor Morley; Tūtānekai; Tūtānekai and Hinemoa; Wayne Murdoch; Will Hansen; Yorick Smaal; books; button; drag; female impersonation; hidden history; history; homosexual law reform; makeup; parties; photography; police; powder puff; record player; rugby; vice; vice squad
DATE: 29 February 2020
YEAR: 2020
LOCATION: Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa, 55 Cable Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the Queer Objects event, held during Wellington's Pride Festival on 29 February 2020 at Te Papa. The recording features historians Will Hansen and Chris Brickell in discussion about Chris' new book Queer Objects. Parts of the recording have been edited. A special thank you to the organisers and participants for allowing this event to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Everyone, Uh, welcome to queer objects. Thank you all so much for coming today. My name is Will, uh I'm a history student up at Victoria University, and I'm so chuffed to have the opportunity to introduce you all to the most wonderful and probably most gay historian and so sociologist and a in New Zealand. Chris Brickle Chris hails from Dunedin, where he is a professor in gender studies at the University of Otago. He's written several beautiful and significant books, including [00:00:30] the absolutely groundbreaking Mates and Lovers. A History of Gay New Zealand. That book in particular, is incredibly special to me personally, As I'm sure I'm not the only queer history kid in Aotearoa who would tell you that stumbling across mates and lovers is what made me realise that doing queer history is possible in New Zealand. So it's my absolute pleasure, pleasure and something of a wild dream to be able to sit beside you, Chris today and discuss with you your newest book, Queer Objects. Chris co edited queer objects with Judith Collard, and if you [00:01:00] haven't bought a copy yet, you absolutely must do so. There will be books for sale at the end, uh, with Allie over there at the back. And if you listen really closely, we're gonna ask a quiz question at the very end of the of the talk and tour. Um, and whoever answers it fastest and most correct will get a free copy of the book, so pay attention. So Queer Objects is the most wonderful collection of over 60 [00:01:30] objects examining the material culture of queer history. It features objects from all across the globe, including a good chunk from here Down Under. It considers histories that are and histories that speak to state power, hilarious histories and sorrowful histories and covers everything from dildos to dogs. Today we're going to hear from Chris about queer objects, both the book and some objects from Te Papa's collections on the table beside me. Um, thanks to curators Claire and Step, and then I'll ask him some questions. [00:02:00] You will get the chance to ask him some questions, and then we'll go on a tour around te Papa to visit some of the queer objects in person. Um, and I think that's all I have to say. So please join me in welcoming Chris Brick. Hey, thanks, will That's really, really nice. No one's ever given me such a lovely introduction. That's really great. Hey, I'm just going to talk a little bit about some of [00:02:30] the objects in the book. I'm going to talk particularly about the idea about what a queer object is or what makes one or doesn't make one. Perhaps there are no pictures of dildos, but there are pictures of dogs. So just to give you a little weenie taster OK, so when we were putting together this collection, which was actually Judith Collard's idea originally I had wanted to write about the makeup box, which will is going to mention [00:03:00] a little bit later and in the context of another book. But it was seen to be in the wrong time, period. So Judith said, Oh, well, why not? Let's just do a book on queer Objects. So that's how it happened. It was out of a kind of a chapter that doesn't quite work somewhere else. I'm really glad that happened because it allowed us to actually really start to explore queer material culture in a way that I hadn't sort of thought of doing before that so really, Judith should be here, too. Um, taking a bow for coming up with the idea. [00:03:30] As we were working through, we we invited some contributors. We had other people find out about the project and approach us with something they wanted to write about. We found that there were almost three kind of categories of objects. Those that could be said to be obviously queer, those that were queer in certain circumstances and those that didn't seem obvious at all. But actually, when you think bit more carefully and look harder, you realise do [00:04:00] fit very much into queer lives. So one of the things I'm hoping that you guys do when you go home is have a look at stuff in your house and have another think about whether it might be queer or not. And if it isn't, see if you can put it to a queer use. And, um, I'm not going to suggest what that might be. You'll have to use your own imaginations for that. So this first, this first slide here is taken by my partner, Jeffrey Vaughan, who, [00:04:30] uh, came with me to Adelaide a few years ago, and we photographed the pride parade so a pride parade, and the things in it which we don't necessarily look at terribly closely, are objects that kind of have a very much queer resonance. So the rainbow, I was gonna say, Rainbow flag. But it's not always a flag in this case, a banner rainbow hat who thinks the rainbow heads kind of cold If anyone sews, um, maybe a lion and rainbow hats [00:05:00] could be an idea. Um, and again, the kind of other kind of paraphernalia. Rainbow coloured balloons. Uh, the guy on the left, he's just sort of looking a bit sort of nervously towards the camera. But these kind of props, you know, they are kind of obviously queer in a queer kind of context, as are buttons and badges. Now, I know there is at least one badge in the audience today, um, a really cool little pink [00:05:30] triangle. One, this is a selection of, um, badges from one of the US collections. One of the things about the book is that we draw quite heavily from Australia and New Zealand, but we were also drawing from, uh, collections of objects and personal objects in a range of different countries. So just off the top of my head. Obviously, New Zealand, Australia, Thailand, Japan, the US, the UK, France, Spain, Italy, [00:06:00] Greece and Poland, I think is pretty much the geographical spread. So again, some fairly obvious kind of objects, but that speak very much to a lesbian and gay politics, in this case coming out of the US, maybe slightly less obvious. But one of my very, very favourite things, which is on the back of the book, is Marcus Bunion's leather jacket. Now this jacket started [00:06:30] its life in Melbourne. Marcus was an immigrant to Melbourne, moved there from the UK and bought this jacket in a secondhand shop. Didn't necessarily have a queer provenance. But the more he owned it, the more he added to it to make it a very much a personal kind of, uh, document, if you like. So he added, on the flag, speaking to his Britishness, the pink triangle, which I'm gonna show you in closer detail [00:07:00] in just a moment. The lyrics from a song or bondage up yours. The publisher was very wary of this. Does anyone know the song? It's a feminist punk song. It's really cool. Go on, Google and and have a bit of a listen. And then about three people said, Oh, no, no, he's not putting gratuitous swearing on the jacket. It's actually a song, um, a little rainbow thing from Greenpeace and the anarchist, um, [00:07:30] kind of symbolism as well and and through personal kind of, uh, references on the back. So this is something that Marcus made clearer. It is really, actually a pretty neat thing. Here's Marcus wearing it on the left. Marcus is also a photographer, something he continues today. Marcus still lives in Melbourne. Um, and we had the sense of the object in its context. I could [00:08:00] have could have shown you a lot more images of Marx, but I didn't want to be terribly Intuit. So, um, here's just one of him wearing the jacket, uh, wearing the Jesus and Mary chain t-shirt underneath and a close up on the right of the, uh, slogan. Silence is the voice of complicity on the pink triangle, which, of course, Marcus was personalising this in the early nineties. The pink triangle was very common, um, as a pride symbol in the 19 eighties, in particular eighties into the nineties. [00:08:30] Um, silence is a voice of complicity is a Marcus take on the act up slogan? Um, silence, um, equals death. Yeah, this here is an incredibly personal, intimate object. What I want to do now is just to talk a bit about domesticity because, as I mentioned before, when I alluded to you looking through your vegetable rack or other places at home, uh, for queer things, [00:09:00] the the lives that we live in a domestic setting are really important, I think, in terms of the the way that things take on meaning for us often in our most intimate kind of spheres for home. OK, so this here is, um, a small artwork out of a diary from two women who live together in Vermont in the early 19th century and the, uh, the the embroidered things around the edges [00:09:30] are woven out of their hair and you can notice at the bottom the love heart with the braiding through the middle. So this is a pair of silhouettes of two women, Charity and Sylvia, about whom Rachel Hope Cleaves has written the most amazing books called Charity and Sylvia. An early marriage in America. Uh, and this is something they created for themselves to celebrate their relationship, Um, and the the enduring nature of it. And indeed, that relationship carried into one on [00:10:00] until one of the women died. So something incredibly personal moving from a public politics, uh, back in time to a more personal one. Right audience participation. Who is this woman? Sort of closes? No. Yes, it is. It's Radcliff Hall and [00:10:30] her her and her partner era Traub Bridge's dogs, who's familiar slightly with the book well of loneliness or knows of well of loneliness. From 1928 1 of the most famous books in In the In the lesbian literary uh, scene written in 1928. Who knows that Radliff Hall and Una Row Bridge bred dash ones? They did. They were very kind of proficient dash breeders. The problem was, [00:11:00] they came to adore the dogs too much, and they couldn't bear to part with them. So they ended up with rather a lot. So if you think about, um, lesbian women and gay men and their pets, and you can think back to kind of Cliff Hall and her vast collection of dash, what's the object here? Is it the dash Or is it the? Is it the photograph? I'm not quite sure. This chapter by hiker Bauer, who's at in London, started off being about the photographs but ended up being more about the dogs. [00:11:30] And it's called Queer Dogs, which is a, um, a title that the publisher wasn't sure of. But But he and I really, really liked. So we're stuck with it pretty much. What do we have inside our house? This is the first of a whole lot of slides. I'm only going to show you a couple from, uh, a Christchurch man called David Wilder, who's really central to my book. Um, the Southern men, his friends appear, and mates and lovers, too. To some extent, David had a little garret [00:12:00] flat in Christchurch opposite Hagley Park in the 19 fifties and sixties, and he filled it full of tasteful objects. So who thinks they're kind of tasteful in the way they kind of arrange their house? Sort of. I mean, I actually think like our $5 vase from the warehouse looks quite good. On top of the shelf next to the giraffe, it actually kind of works quite well. So think about the way we organise our houses. And there's nothing particularly queer about [00:12:30] that kind of lamp or that radiogram or that Greek vase. Or maybe there is. I'm going to talk briefly about Greek pottery in just a little while. You can't not really, can you? Um, library so library full of books. The titles that appear here are things like cactus gardening and container, you know, gardening and containers and pots and all of that kind of stuff. But David actually had a very, very big [00:13:00] collection of gay books, and I know this because I have his diary, which has a list of them in it. So for a man in Christchurch in the 19 fifties and sixties, somehow getting hold of gay books through customs, what men often did is that they would take materials offered to them by ship stewards and later, air stewards who smuggle things in in their cabin luggage because it got past the censors. So there are ways of getting hold of these things, um, in the middle of the 20th century, and [00:13:30] they, of course, gave huge meaning to the way that people understood their intimate lives. David in his pyjamas with, um, the radio grand. We can't not talk about clothes. We're going to come back to clothes with this giant headdress, which is the most camp and extravagant thing you've ever seen. I'm guessing, uh, we'll have it up on the screen so you can see it in more detail. OK, I want to talk now to finish with ambiguous objects. [00:14:00] I got this, uh, several years ago during an election campaign. Is it a queer object? Two years. And so what would make this a queer object? Yeah, So I bought the boys one and the girls one. And just as I was framing up the introduction for this book, I thought, I'm going to go back and have another look at that badge because it's an example of something that may or may not be in some circumstances, it isn't the [00:14:30] first time I saw this, though I thought this seems very clear to me. Does anyone else have the same kind of thought that the moment you see it, you could see it being worn in a way that actually clears the pitch in terms of how clothing and and adornment signifies sexuality? Right. Is this a queer object. This particular make of, um, portable record player was the make of [00:15:00] player that the women in the Leeds Lesbian Circle are used during the 19 sixties. And it's the subject of a really interesting chapter written by Alison or who's a very well known British lesbian historian. And Alison writes about the ways in which women would take this from from house to house and set it up. And it was a central part of the lesbian party at a time when many lesbian women in this part of England didn't want to go to bars. [00:15:30] And so it was very central to the lesbian society that was built up in the Leeds and Manchester areas during that time in British history. And so women would dance to the music of this portable record player. And, uh, this is slightly cheating, because this photo is actually from the Gateways Club, which is a very well known lesbian club. I've kind of Segway from the record player, but I wanted a picture of women dancing, So here it is, uh, the image on the right comes out of arena, Um, which [00:16:00] was a lesbian magazine from the same part of of the UK. So the the record player evokes music. It evokes dancing. It evokes that kind of feeling that you you have when you hear that kind of do. Does anyone remember these? And the you'd have a stack of records and the arm would fold back and there'd be a plunk as the new record would go on and then it would start playing. So there's this kind of really nice kind of feeling to it, too. And of course, the record player could be moved from place to place this [00:16:30] fitted in with profound changes in British society, increasing mobility of women. Uh, the motorbike, which this was small enough to be carried on, and the motor car. So it tells of a bigger story, too. So what might look like one specific little thing has a much bigger kind of tale to tell. And so I'm just going to finish with three more slides and talk a little bit about the significance of history [00:17:00] in the earlier sense. So going back beyond New Zealand in this case, who is this historical figures O. Why is CO important? Yeah, she she's a massively important figure in lesbian history right now. Does anyone know when she lived about 700 to 900 somewhere in BC? Yeah, that's pretty [00:17:30] much what I've got. Yeah, it's a little bit slightly unclear because the records are but yep, somewhere somewhere at that time. So someone who's a Touchstone Here's a portion of her papyrus, and I discovered that her papyrus are poems. Some of them were used to wrap mummies. So it was only later on, uh, during kind of investigation of of mummified remains at her poetry, which talks of love for women as well as for men. Her intimate life appears to be somewhat ambiguous, [00:18:00] but that's not a bad thing. Who has heard of Saint Eugenia, a much less known historical figure than Saint Eugenia, died about 2 58 AD so somewhat after CO did so she lived in Alexandria. She donned mail a tie and cut her hair short in order to seek adventure [00:18:30] and gain independence, she called herself. Eugenius was tried in court, where her father was the judge, which puts me in mind of that fantastic Barbra Streisand film where she appears in court and her father is the judge what it's called. I'm sitting here trying to remember to remember this. It's probably one of the best Barbra Streisand films you ever said. What's up, Doc? It is, too. Thank you. Sorry, slight diversion. So Eugenia, when she [00:19:00] appeared in court as a male figure, revealed her breast and revealed her original identity to her father, who was the judge? And in a really interesting chapter by Robert Mills, Robert suggests that in many ways she can be seen as a gender queer figure whose identity comes and goes, flexes and wanes through a number of kind of artistic representations. Mill suggests this tells us something interesting about the fluidity of gender in mediaeval times, [00:19:30] and that ideas about independence were so closely tied to masculinity and certain forms of religiosity were so closely tied to masculinity that women who sought them were seen as masculine. But actually this created a certain kind of space for degrees of ambiguity. So moving off Eugenia onto my onto my final slide, this is an un unashamed segue to Papa because here [00:20:00] we have. Yeah, So who are they who do these dolls represent? They are the top. They are so recognisable as the top twins. Like, Does anyone think this doesn't look like the top twins? I can't remember how I found them. Um, Stephanie and Claire might be able to say a little bit about them. I understand that not a lot is known about their providence. It only makes them more fascinating. But if anyone can kind of create any of us out of wool [00:20:30] and make us look really kind of like ourselves, I think that's actually, you know, pretty good testament to their artistic creativity, don't you think? OK, on that note, then, of the top twins, I'm gonna hand over to will, and we're going to look at these fabulous things. Listen. Thank you, Chris. Everyone want to join your hand in books? Can you hear me at the back? Is this microphone cool? OK, thank [00:21:00] you. Awesome. Thank you, Chris. So we're also super lucky because we've got a whole bunch of IRL objects here from te Papa's storerooms brought for you here today so you can have a closer look at them, which is super awesome. The first one, though unfortunately, we don't actually have in real life. I shouldn't have said that first that made it set it up differently. But this one. So the first thing that we're gonna talk about today, um, as the evergreen collage as the evergreen panels. Uh, so these were made by a trans woman named Chrissy [00:21:30] We She was a well known queen based in Wellington. Uh who from 8 1984 to 1999 ran a late night coffee lounge called the Evergreen. Um, it was open till the early hours of the morning and it boasted the best best cheese Toasties in town. Uh, it was known as a safe space frequented by queer and especially trans people. And Chrissy is very fondly remembered by people for her warmth and love. Although in a lot of the interviews I've done with people, uh, it's clear she also wasn't afraid [00:22:00] of tough love. And many of the older queens who I've talked to chuckled to me, recalling times where she barred them from the coffee lounge for being a bit too rowdy. The evergreen was a space that facilitated community building, which was an essential prerequisite to community organising, allowing a space for like-minded people to meet, discuss ideas, plan protests and get organised between 1986 and 1989. The evergreen was an official gay and lesbian community Drop-in Centre, and after 11 p. m. it became a drop [00:22:30] in centre for sex workers. And so on the wall of the evergreen, Chrissy had these fantastic collages. Uh, some of them include photographs from back in the 19 sixties and seventies, and she continued to make them to make them all the way until she died in 2002. The collages feature Chrissy's friends, family, acquaintances, business cards and newspaper clippings. Um, and I think what I love most about them is I feel that a lot of queer history is kind of seen as as being, uh, full of of [00:23:00] silence or shame or sadness. But actually, when you look at these collages, uh, the all Chrissy and all her friends are having so much fun and they being young and proud, and they're just having a good time, and they're with their family and their community, and I think it is, um, a really wonderful way of showing that actually, you know, just because something happened, um, before law reform or before marriage, equality or whatever that it, um our history there wasn't. Hasn't Hasn't always been silent. It's been full of laughter as well. [00:23:30] Um, so those I think are really special. Do you have anything you wanna add? Oh, did anyone go there? The evergreen? Does anyone remember the evergreen? I went there once. Any memories, you always gotta pay $3. You always got a cup of coffee or tea and a biscuit. So if you didn't get anything, you got that? Yes. Or Milo? Alright. Next one. Fine. Next [00:24:00] one we have. Uh So before I talk to you about this object, which is a pink police hat, I need to talk to you about Carmen. Um who does anyone not know who know who who knows who Carmen is. No one wants to put their hand off if they don't know. Ok, most of you do. Just for those who don't, Carmen was probably the most famous clean living in a during the 20th century. She was a business owner, a performer, one time mayoral candidate, activist sex worker who was always in the headlines for her headlines. For her antics, she owned several coffee lounges in Wellington through [00:24:30] the 19 seventies, including her most famous cars, International Coffee Lounge, Uh, through the coffee lounge. She, like Chrissy facilitated community building provided other queens with employment in an era of rampant anti trans discrimination. Um, but this coffee lounge wasn't your usual, uh, upstairs. There was a suite of bedrooms which acted as a brothel, and Carmen famously used to say that all the tea and coffee and sandwiches were downstairs, but the suites were all upstairs because of Carmen's notoriety. [00:25:00] She was often targeted by the police, uh, who often would try and trick her and her staff into sex so that they could make an arrest in a pro pro practise known as entrapment. I won't get into all the horrible details, but police abuse of Queens was horrific and was incredibly commonplace. Carmen, recognising this, sought to work with the police in order to get them to lay off herself and her other queens. And she would sometimes take Queens out to the police college in in order to give talks. As a result of [00:25:30] this and I think, a healthy dose of Carmen's famous charm, she managed to develop a more positive relationship with the police and It was so positive. In fact, that, uh, vice squad, former vice squad Detective Trevor Morley gifted this customised police helmet to Carmen on her 70th birthday. So he painted it pink. He put some, um, feather boas on there, I believe, which has since come off, but jewelled it, um, And on the inside, he has written to Carmen a KATDR happy 70th birthday. And thanks for the memories. [00:26:00] Former Detective Trevor W, a Morley a KATW along with his police number and dated 7th September 2006, Wellington, New Zealand. So I don't think it's appropriate to talk about this object without recognising that police abuse of Maori has actually continued to get worse over the years. And that despite painting rainbows on cop cars, diversity in itself is not enough. And, uh, police abuse of rainbow communities continues to happen. But I think that in the context [00:26:30] of continuing tensions between police and queer communities, the helmet does represent an instance of a very unlikely friendship. And I think it speaks to the power of queer resilience in the face of brutality and resistance to brutality that a friendship was even able to come out of it much to think on next. You unless you had anything to add. Alright, Now we move on to this beautiful gay head dress. [00:27:00] Um, this was worn by drag artist Tony Roger Roger, uh, who was known more commonly as Frankie or Frank L. It was used while he performed with his friend and fellow drag queen Johnny Cross. Um and who, by the way, has an incredible series of photographic albums which you should check out You can. I'll tell you to get in contact with we'll. We'll sort it out if you want to look at them because they're stunning online online? They're online online. [00:27:30] They're online anyway. Frankie regularly headlined at places like Carmen's uh, one of Carmen's other establishments, which was called the balcony, uh, which is where the now defunct Central Library used to be on the corner by the police station. Um, Frankie made a whole heap of his own costumes out of things like fake pearls and plastic jewellery. Um, and I think, as it would have been amazing to see something like this in person. Oh, maybe, can we jangle it? Are you able to Oh, no, no, no. Is that rude to ask, [00:28:00] just Can you hear that beautifully gay? I don't really have an awful lot to say about it, because I think it's pretty obvious how clear this is. Um, I think also. But I do think it does say a lot that I mean, um, to make something so stunning out of virtually nothing or that these kind of fake plastic bits, um, to make yourself a crown to a dawn on your head is something of a reclamation of power during a you know, a homophobic [00:28:30] time. So I think it's as much as it's also fun. I think it's also really powerful and important. So that's that. Oh, this is really cool. The year is 1985 the debate over homosexual law reform. The bill which would decriminalise homosexuality, has been growing louder and louder. The whole nation is divided. Worlds are colliding. Horrible people like member of Parliament Norman Jones are telling gay people to go back to the sewers where you came from, while [00:29:00] queer people are fighting for their lives on the streets. During the debate, opponents to law reform organised a nationwide petition claiming that they had over 800,000 signatures. They organised a big ceremony to deliver the petition to the steps of Parliament on the 24th of September 1985. And it was a rally that was so vitriolic and nationalistic that many onlookers likened it to a Nazi Nuremberg rally. They contained, uh, the petition within 91 boxes, creating quite the display. [00:29:30] Um, however, it was found that some of the boxes were empty. The petition seats contained fictitious names, including being signed by one Mickey Mouse signatures by Children and several repeat signatures. So this placard was made by gay activist Hugh Young, who, along with other counter protesters at the petition, um, presentation on the day, sought to mock the petition and point out how false it was. This sign, of course, points to the fact that many of the signatures were repeated. Hence, I signed 27 times. [00:30:00] Parliament rejected the petition, and by the following year, homosexual law reform was passed. So do you have anything in your app? No. Other than I mean, yeah, There are photos that are quite sort of scary of that event, with rows of the New Zealand flag sass that said for God, country and family as well as the big boxes of petitions. Was anyone there? Because I know that. Yeah. Roger. Tell. What [00:30:30] was it like? Roger that. There was the There was all this organised thing up on the on the steps of parliament and on the front forecourt there. And then there were barriers along and there was a line of policemen, I think, along that side and behind the policeman was Fran Wilde standing on a box shouting at them, and, um, and lots of people with banners and things booing and hissing and that sort of thing. So there there wasn't a very big, supportive crowd, I think, for the petition. But there was certainly a very vocal crowd against [00:31:00] it. And, um and there were lots of, um, you know, just lots of people and police were taking people away who were leaping over the over the barriers and trying to disrupt the presentation. So it was quite a It was quite a fraught scene, Um, in that sense, so yeah, I recall one of the other MP PS involved Jeff, Jeff Bray Brook and a labour MP who was who was one of the leading campaigners against it. I think he died a little while ago and they had and they [00:31:30] had and the radio had recordings of him quite openly admitting that he got it completely wrong and it was all and it was all there was. There was no apology whatsoever, of course, but but sort of Oh, well, you know, it hasn't turned out like we feared sort of thing, right? One more. One more, Uh, two more Second, the last one. So this rugby ball was signed by the Crazy Knights and Pons and be heroes rugby teams in [00:32:00] 1998 when they played New Zealand's first gay interprovincial rugby game at the rugby league park right here in Newtown. Well, we're not here here, but you know what I mean? What's really sweet is that the Knights presented this ball to one of their staunchest supporters after the match. Um, Alan Bracegirdle, who threw up, flew up from Christchurch for every game in 1998. That's cute. The Crazy Knights, founded by Dean Knight, were the first gay rugby team to be formed in New Zealand. [00:32:30] The knights included players from all walks of life, including drag Queens and a future minister of sport and finance. Grant Robertson. Grant Robertson's signature is actually on the ball, as has his partners, ALF. Very cute. They met on the field, uh, and were joined in the Civil Union in 2009. 0, the crazy Knights aim was to provide a safe, queer, friendly environment for gay men to play rugby. At the time, Dean Knight noted that if it was a perfect [00:33:00] world, we wouldn't need a gay rugby team. Everyone would simply be able to be themselves and be honest about their sexuality. I think it's a really lovely um instance of queering, something within New Zealand culture that is typically associated with the most masculine form of heterosexuality. Although I don't really know how straight all that thigh growing is. But why do you ever alrighty, last object. So this is also really interesting. [00:33:30] In 2008, Air New Zealand put on special flights for people who wanted to attend the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras. It was called the pink flight. Did anyone go on it? No, it was cool. It was, uh, specifically marketed at the queer community. So you all missed out on the flight. Uh, there were drag queen performances, pink cocktails and cabaret performed by the crew. Maybe their next safety video performance artist. Mika was given this pink Air New Zealand bag [00:34:00] when he went on a pink flight to Sydney. And so to me, uh, it kind of fun as this object seems, I think this object can actually be used to spark some pretty serious questions about the state of queer politics. Who benefits from Air New Zealand's promotion of a gay friendly image? What are the working conditions for queer people at Air New Zealand? Like they were OK with drag queen performers on a pink flight? But there have been repeated claims that they are refusing to hire trans women as flight attendants. Even when the woman in question are, well, overqualified. [00:34:30] What is pink washing doing to our communities? And with that, think about it. And on that note, I think it's time to go back to you, Chris, unless you have anything extra you wanna say there's no way I can compete with any of that world. That is fantastic. Um well, listen. Thank you, Chris. OK, I have some preprepared questions for you about five. Not [00:35:00] this time. Oh, alrighty. So, uh, who's who's read the book already? Oh, people, Part part part of it. OK, awesome. Well, if you read the book, you'd know that there are a lot of photographs of authors, um, from the younger days scattered throughout it. Um, and I think it's a really lovely way to kind of show the sense of, like, ownership and excitement that people clearly felt as they were writing, um, their pieces [00:35:30] within within the book and kind of linking between past and present. Um, So I wondered what was your motivation to include these old author photos? Um, I guess a couple of things. People sometimes just sent them in, and I kind of grabbed them and said Yes, yes, yes, we're going to put that in there. But also, I really like that idea of the personal kind of stories of objects in the way that they are really hooked into people's own lives. And so being able to, um, have a photograph of yourself and in your in [00:36:00] your younger incarnation gives you a sense. It gives the it gives the reader a sense of that time and place and gives them connection to the person who's there. So, for instance, one of my favourite chapters is Matt Cook's, uh, chapter on the telephone, and he talks about the way in which the phone enabled queer community through such things as, uh, phone support lines, uh, phone trees the way that political groups would use phone trees in order to connect members run campaigns. [00:36:30] Uh, he talks about himself as a 16 year old, very shy, uh, boy in London, plucking up the courage to dial that number, Um, on the phone, you know, ring a phone line and talk to what he saw was a very worldly gay man while I was away at a kind of a switchboard. So we we think now about the smartphone as a thing, and there's a chapter on that. But the way that Matt's own very personal kind of testimony talks about the way in which the phone, the old sort with a dial on it and handle, [00:37:00] was really pivotal to his own, you know, self development. So that tells the story. Really. There were some authors I would love to have had photographs from, but they couldn't be arm twisted also. I mean, if anyone hasn't seen the book is a little bit of a sales pitch. Am I allowed to do this? Um, what we tried to do is to get chapters which were really readable by a non academic audience. So there are some which are a bit denser than others, [00:37:30] but we tried to really weave personal stories through. So they are chapters that, um you know, they're not kind of high theory or anything like that. So So trying to reach out to as diverse audience as we can get, um, And again, Yes. Showing the personal side of the things is a part of that. I think I Yeah, I thought that the there were also, um, instances in the book where even if the author didn't have a personal relationship to the object themselves, they developed it through [00:38:00] writing about it. As one of the authors, Lauren Britton, uh, wrote a series of replies to personal ads that have been published in Trans magazine. Trans, Um, and that's a really you have to buy it to read it, But, um, but I really love that about queer objects. So the book doesn't attempt to be stoic and impersonal and and pursue of some kind of like historical objectivity, as though that even exists and instead really revels in these kind of connections. So I want What do you Why do you think it is important to have personal connections [00:38:30] like that in the book? I guess, because for me, queer history has always been really personal, like I sort of started with people's experiences of their lives. I guess it's partly coming out of my sociological training where the personal and the political are really closely connected. Which, of course, is also a very important part of queer politics and lesbian politics, too. So there's that. There's always that connection in that kind of politics and in that scholarship, but also it makes it really engaging, like [00:39:00] who doesn't like reading about the way that other people's journeys kind of might, you know, reflect their own in some way. So I think that's kind of that's part of it. I mean, my partner Jeffrey, he had never had anything published before, and there's a chapter that he wrote in here, which, incidentally, needed less editing than most of the others, which was really fantastic about a satchel that he carried to school when he was six, about what that means for him. And there's a really cute photograph of him age six in there. So it just yeah, just [00:39:30] to break away to. I think the fashion for writing Impenetrable prose and academia is sort of. I think everyone's a bit bored by it. It sort of died out of way, but I hope unless you're writing in certain areas. So yeah, I just think accessible personal. It tells a story in a way that kind of works, Really. So, uh, we all know queer history is something that is kind of seen as being characterised by the so-called silences [00:40:00] of the archives, where our histories have been hidden or censored or destroyed, or we've had to write in ways that make it not immediately obvious to the casual Look on, look at what it's about. And so I wonder if the study of material culture then has any particular significance for queer histories? I think so. I mean, I think you know. One example in the book is Frieda DAO's mountaineering memoir. So the object is the book Frida lived with her partner, Muriel Cadigan, from about 1910 [00:40:30] onwards, so fairly early on, and their relationship is really kind of coded. And so there's a coding that goes on often, and objects somehow end up revealing the codes that are woven in there. Fredda gives it away in one place where she says that they were what they were kind of trying to, um, sleep on a bunk about, you know, 2 ft wide. And it was not very restful, but quite exciting. And sometimes, you know, let let's slip it away. But there's something about material [00:41:00] culture that you can see how people use things in their own life. Or in that case, you can see how Frida wrote a book that was ostensibly about the passion of mountaineering but was also about the passion of Muriel just lying just underneath the surface. Awesome. Um, I was also I think it's maybe in the introduction. I can't remember if it's in the introduction or an entry, but, um, there's the idea of objects facilitating a queer genealogy and being passed down. Um, so there's an object that's passed [00:41:30] down from Oscar Wilde. Is that right? Yeah, the postcard that we think belonged to Oscar Wilde and got passed down to his executive and then a friend of his and a friend of his. And I think it's on about the fourth or fifth kind of remove now, which is so lovely. And I think, um, the way it it speaks to intergenerational queer connections. And I think that's such a lovely way to think about preserving history in that way, passing down something through the generations. And it made me think if I had an object, what would it be and who would I give [00:42:00] it to? So I guess my last question is a bit of a is a bit of a silly one. Maybe, I don't know. But if you had to pick an object to pass down that is apparently in your possession, what would it be? Well, it's actually the makeup box in here. The makeup box that the cover the globules on the front, which the publishers very nicely put a little spot UV elimination on the front to make them pop out. That's the cover of a Japanese incense box, which inside it has a number of stage pals really wonderfully rich smelling [00:42:30] pal. Um, pistol stage makeup that was owned by John Hunter. John Hunter was a female impersonator who toured New Zealand after the Second World War. He was too young to go to war himself with the Kiwi concert party. Uh, it's a really fantastic we object. There are images of hunter in the Turnbull library. Uh, there's an interview that someone has done with him. I know, um, a couple of people who knew him quite well, and he passed [00:43:00] that, uh, makeup kit down to a friend of his who passed it down to someone else who passed it on to me. So that would be my kind of thing. It's also the object. I think I mentioned that we couldn't put in the other book originally the Colonial Objects book, because it was too modern. So it's where this book started. But it's kind of cute, like David Wilde, who was a second owner whose apartment I showed you before, who passed it to his executor and his executive [00:43:30] said, I want you to have this. It's like a queer heirloom, and I thought, Yeah, OK, it is It's quite nice, and every so Often I go and I lift the lid and sniff it and then put the bag on again and then go and have a cup of tea. So do you make any distinction in the book yet? But it's, um, between good objects and bad objects. So, for example, you might say a bad object that store here in the whereas the headpiece, for example, was a good it was fun and fabulous. Well, we [00:44:00] do have a few things that are quite interesting. That gesture to this. Has anyone heard of the penile graph before? How do you say it used to determine the degree of arousal and male subjects? Yes, shock. And so that was an object that was used as part of regimes of shock therapy. So that the chapter, which is Kate Davison's really, really [00:44:30] interesting chapter on Neil, uh, McConaughey, who is an Australian aversion therapy doctor who used this device as part of his in inverted commas therapy. That's an object that we frame up in the introduction as being about queer suffering rather than something that would be about queer celebration like that. So we we we sort of do Oh, yeah, now this. What will's holding up here is an example of a piece of film which was used as part of one of these aversion therapy [00:45:00] sequences. And so, um, the pliers graph would then be attached to the person and their their arousal at this kind of image would then be would be measured. And I don't want to go into detail about the horrific of those different kinds of aversion therapy. There were several, some involved electric shocks, some involved, Um um, extremely severe vomiting, um, as a kind of a supposedly readapt kind of attempt. But something like that would be an example. Another [00:45:30] one that I think is interesting. Wayne Murdoch's chapter on the powder puff in Melbourne. The powder puff was often used by men in urban queer scenes. Um, during those kind of periods, uh, they'd have it in their pocket. They put makeup on with it, but the police were very keen to grab hold of these and use them as evidence in court. And so something which had been part of a subculture. A good object then gets translated into a bad object [00:46:00] in the sense that it's something that is used to secure guilt and becomes exhibit A, um and so Wayne's chapter, actually, which will is about to hold up an envelope with the powder puff, and you can see the powder puff at the bottom. Um, this is an example of an object like like that sort of a community item that then becomes kind of evidence in a in a court case. And in this particular case, the two men were jailed for a number of years, and the lives of both of them spun [00:46:30] out of control. And they end up, um, one, I think, lost a leg in a wharf accident. And the other one became extremely, um, uh, alcoholic. So it was, um, yeah, pretty sad end for these for these two. So the book is it's not a sad book, and it's not a happy book, but it's got elements of of both kind of pleasure and suffering and things in between. Um, if you like, yeah, that's a slightly melancholic but maybe not too melancholic place to end. [00:47:00] Perhaps So, um, I hope you've all enjoyed this gay day. Um, if you please all put your hands together once more for Chris and so and that's for well as well. And just pass that to Allie and Steph and Claire [00:47:30] for putting this on. Um, we're gonna have We're gonna have some gay tea and some gay coffee. Um, now and you'll get a chance to talk to to Chris and to anyone else that you heard from that you would like to talk more. Are you gonna, um, do any signing of any books? Yeah, I can do any signing if anyone would like signing Allie's got books over there. And the and the food is somewhere there. Out the back. Thank you. Come and have a look.

IRN: 2936
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_pasefika_2020.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004582
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089876
TITLE: Rainbow Pasefika 2020
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Gio To'a; Leilani Sio; Malia Patea-Taylor; Rachel Ingram
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2000s; 2020s; Ali Foa'i; Andrew Pihama; Aniwaniwa o Tairawhiti (Gisborne); Aotearoa New Zealand; Buoy Salon and Spa (Wellington); Chris Ulutupu; Chrissy Witoko; Dana de Milo; Derek Elvy; Elizabeth Kerekere; Evergreen Coffee House; Evolve Wellington Youth Service; Gio To'a; Gisborne; HIV / AIDS; Huriana Kopeke-Te Aho; Jason Olsen; Kieran Meredith; Lee Smith; Leilani Sio; Mahinarangi Tocker; Malia Patea-Taylor; Museums Wellington; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Out in the Park (Wellington); Pasifika; Rachel Ingram; Rainbow Pasefika (2020); Ryder August; Tairawhiti; Tash Helasdottir-Cole; Tautua Village; Tāmati Coffey; Victor Taurewa Biddle; Warren Douglas; Wellington; Wellington Museum; Wellington Pride Festival (2020); culturally safe; culture; diversity; drop-in centre; fa'afafine; mahi; mahu; memorial; museums; rangatahi; representation; safe space; school; slam poetry; spoken word poetry; suicide; support; takatāpui; upcycle; whakawahine; youth
DATE: 29 February 2020
YEAR: 2020
LOCATION: Wellington Museum, 3 Jervois Quay, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the Rainbow Pasefika 2020 event, held at Wellington Museum on 29 February 2020 during Wellington's Pride festival.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name's, uh, I produced an event, uh, as part of the Wellington Pride Festival called Rainbow Pacifica. It's the second event of its kind. I did the 1st 12 years ago at as part of the Wellington Pacifica Festival, and we're at in the attic, which is level three of the Wellington Museum, which is at three. It's an amazing space. Can you just describe for me what the space is like? Oh, OK, [00:00:30] so there needs to be more, um, Maori stuff, which that's a work in progress and Polynesian stuff in general. But, I mean, there's a big giant over there. Did you go past it? And when you go past it, he goes P 555. I don't know some mechanical puer. There's a flying saucer in here. There's a stuffed lion, Rusty. Poor rusty they like. That's an actual legit lion memorabilia. Is that enough? Yeah, absolutely. So in amongst all of us, we have got things set up for [00:01:00] this event. Can you describe some of the things? Oh, yes. So I have a five metre long poster, and it's about 100 and 53 centimetres wide, uh, designed by Maori artist. Uh, she does a lot of designs for political and community organisations. It is amazing we've got We've already got one person in here at 10 o'clock who started to colour that in. We've got a Children's table set up on the side because we don't want them to run the bigger picture so [00:01:30] they get their own picture. Um, in one end in the room, we have Peter from the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, who's set up a quiet space. It's curtain. It's private for people if they want to come in and get tested for free for HIV and syphilis. Um, if you don't want to do it in that space, you can you've got a home kit that you can take away, and Peter will explain how you use that, Uh, and then on this side, we've got the capital room, which is like an old meeting room [00:02:00] of the harbour board. And we've got Geo. Uh, who's the programme lead for an LGBT QI A plus, uh, Maori Pacifica, Uh, youth organisation. I'm based in Gisborne and her boss, Maria Taylor. Uh, who runs village. Uh, I think that's what runs under. They're both here from Gisborne picked [00:02:30] them up from the airport yesterday. And they're setting up the grazing table, and Joe will be performing later. And I'm at the DJ table setting stuff up for our three DJ S who aren't really Technically, they're not DJ S. But there are three outstanding, uh, young men in the community. We have Chris, OK? DJ, who is quite a well known artist in a We have a, uh, Tuvalu. He, [00:03:00] uh, is originally from Auckland, and he's a very well known actor. He's been lots of stuff. I. I saw him in the French festival a couple of years ago. He did a one man show called this. It was amazing. Um, and then we have Karen MEREDITH who, uh, does the marketing for city mission. Yeah, he's a bit nervous, but I reckon he'll kick us. Yeah. Oh, and we're going to have free lunch at 12. And you've also got a, uh, an open mic for for poetry. That's right. The spoken word. Um, I've got a run sheet here. [00:03:30] That's some time in the afternoon for all you buddy in. Because I know our kids really love spoken word. That's at about two o'clock. Um, there'll be an opportunity for people to come up and do their thing, you know? And I've got, um, little prizes for people of you know, who are the first person who's gonna be brave enough. I've got a cap with the rainbow Pacifica logo to give away, And I might have, uh, something else, like a jacket with [00:04:00] the logo printed on it to give away. Why was it important to have a specifically a rainbow Pacifica event? Uh, just for, uh, representation. Uh, there's not many events in the pride festival geared towards that part of the community. And I think it might create a barrier for people to come, because if they don't see anything that's reflective of them, they're less likely to participate. [00:04:30] But I think there are people out there, uh, who definitely would like to come to, you know, pride in that if there's something catered towards them, um, it's also the youth, uh, stuff as well. We've talked about this before. Um, just say, don't want people, you know, people feeling lonely. It's it's an all. This is a family friendly or ages event. Um, and you can come in and connect, [00:05:00] you know, in person with people and set it on the Internet. It's a good way to connect and engage. I love engaging with people even though I come across as grumpy and antisocial. But, um, um, I think it's really important. Are you able to take me across to the colouring in table and just describe some of the words and the images that are on there? We've got about the, um, visual memorial tribute that, [00:05:30] uh, created. It's for people in our rainbow community who have passed the spec specifically. It's playing on this like the screens three floors high. It's amazing. Should come and have a look at that, too. OK, so oh, the words. They're all like oceanic words for gender and sexuality because I mean pre missionary precolonial times, gender and sexuality. We, uh, [00:06:00] in Oceania. It's a lot more fluid than I guess, Western, but Western is moving towards that. This that's for, I think, same companions. But I. I think that's still a modern word. It's been around for ages that someone want to be like a woman who is Hawaiian. Um, that's pretty new, too. And what about some of the imagery. Can you describe that corn beef? That's pretty self explanatory. [00:06:30] I think. I just told to go with it and she came up with lipstick and lips, you know? Oh, bananas. Yum. It's making me hungry. POY heels. You know, flora and fauna. People dancing warriors. It's pretty indicative of, um, the different cultures across the Pacific. Yeah. And so I'm sure by the end of the day, this will be completely coloured in. [00:07:00] What? What will happen after that? Um, I'm gonna find an organisation Who will have it on the wall because, uh, the the first thing we had, we tried to make the world's longest rainbow lay. And that still hangs up in at Evolve Youth. That's on street. So we're gonna have a few people from there here. Uh, uh. Some of the workers here, too. They haven't arrived yet. And And can you just take me over to the memorial wall and just, um, tell me a wee bit about that and and how that came about? Oh, yeah. [00:07:30] I mean, I was emotional the first time I watched it. I don't know if it's because I'm getting older, but I just seem to notice more of our community passing on, but I think it's also a particular generation. I really think it's important to remember them and the impressions they left on everyone else, like, for the most part. Good. And I think there was something I was really touched when thy coff spoke out on the park. Particularly about, uh, Lee [00:08:00] Smith. I mean, the wider community, especially Maori, not giving him enough credit for how he pretty much revitalised Maori. So he's in that and he passed away last spring. I mean Oh, God, I remember meeting him. When I was a teenager, I really hated him. And then the old man kind of grew on me, and I realised that he, you know, he's actually quite a softy. I mean, all watching it as a guy. His rider August, um, and unfortunately, also passed. [00:08:30] Uh, maybe it was the last year, but, I mean, I don't even think Rider was in the early twenties at the oldest. Um, yeah, there's a lot of people here who were part of the earlier waves, um, of people who contracted HIV who have passed, uh, Andrew Chadwick. I think it's important for people to know, Uh, their, uh, rainbow history. Yeah, and it's a massive [00:09:00] memorial projection. This goes over three floors down, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, they deserve it. Yeah, I mean, I thought was a pain in the butt, but he was so creative. Like, I think I was 14 when I met him. He was just He's amazing. I. I thought, Yeah, it was funny, because that love hate thing, But you never gonna meet anybody like him ever again. Are you able to, um, just say some of the names as as they come up Jason Olson, [00:09:30] his creative passed away in a Australia. Quite a few of these people passed away last year, which I was a bit shocked. It was kind of like a bit of a steamroll. Um, there's Warren Douglas. He's this amazing dancer, um, amazing Maori Jewish lesbian musician, um, Chris. And it's so cool, because down on the next floor is the neon sign from the evergreen coffee lounge that that she owned [00:10:00] for years. I met her as a kid, too. I spent a lot of my youth in that coffee lounge. It probably saved my life too. Oh, and Derek, owner of boy hairdressing. They started out in Newtown, and there's he's, like, a mentor to me. Grumpy old men. But yeah, and Donna de Milo. I mean, she's a legend, or at least at least coming up. This is a beautiful picture. [00:10:30] Yeah, it's so lovely to to have them projected on onto this wall and to have them here today. Yeah, I think so. Thanks for saying that, Gareth. But, um, like, we're hoping to maybe keep this every year and just add to it. Um, the the thing about it was that it was the time that we had and just trying to get permission from families or friends. Uh, because I don't want to use photos without anyone's permission. Yeah, but yeah. I. I think Tasha has done a fantastic [00:11:00] job. So thinking about today, what do you hope to To To to have out of out of today? Oh, I just hope more people turn up and have a good time, you know, and that we get some feedback that this is something that the community wants. Otherwise I'm gonna have to look, look, have a rethink about what to do. But I did hear it through on the Internet. There were quite a few kids from Auckland that actually wanted to come down but didn't have [00:11:30] the means. So that was pretty encouraging for me, considering Auckland's got a big, bigger population. So I'm thinking if I have it in the budget next year, maybe I could get a van and, um, arrange for some older people in the community to bring these young people down. Right? So we're in the attic at Wellington Museum. Um, with this fabulous rainbow Pacifica, Um, experience is going on. Um, my role is I work in the community engagement team here at Wellington [00:12:00] Museum. Um, and it's just just an absolute, um, joy for us to be here today. Doing this. Yeah. So, Rachel, why is it important to to have, um, events like this Rainbow Pacifica event? Uh, the the community engagement team, The whole museum. We're really focused on having visitor experiences that are meaningful people. And we look a lot at who comes to the museum, but we're actually more concerned with who doesn't come to the museum and how we can make the museum relevant for the people who don't come. So they do feel like that [00:12:30] they are part of this museum. Um, so it's really important for us that that we form relationships with communities through this sort of glorious community day kind of, um, where people come in and they take the museum over and and it's their kind of, um, their kind of rules of engagement for the day. And we're just there to sort of support it and hopefully form relationships that mean this is now an ongoing, um, an ongoing sort of partnership in in into the future. One of the [00:13:00] things I really love is that the event is taking place in amongst all the museum, so it's not in a separate room, but it's actually in the attic. And And when I say the attic, I mean the attic is just full of wonderful. It's it's really lovely to be in the museum, and it it's way more welcoming for everybody to be part of that and not not locked away in a room. But it's also I. I actually think the objects really enjoy it because I think it kind of brings the space alive like there's music and there's a and [00:13:30] there's warmth and there's people, um, engaging and having fun together and talking and I. I think I believe that the objects probably really like that. One of the things I also love is you. You've got, like, a a kind of a three story high, um, projection wall with, um, at at the moment it's showing, um, images of people that have passed. Can you tell me a little bit about that? So that that's called our tool screen and that that's something pretty special. And we can We can play on that all throughout the day and we can programme Um, what? [00:14:00] Whatever community bring it to us and would like us to programme. We can put that in there. So today and her crew have put this film together. Um, in a few weeks, Um, there's going to be, uh, something here when there's gonna be 24 women, um, talking about intersectionality of feminism, and that will be put up on there. So it's Actually, it's a way to make the museum relevant, like the exhibitions don't change. And so how do you bring people in and how do you show this is contemporary and we're We're concerned with people here and now and of the moment and what people, um, [00:14:30] are passionate about. And so and what people? What work? People are doing their money. So you put it, put it on the tour scheme. And suddenly you've got this amazing, contemporary, vivid now thing going on. Yeah. So how do communities come in and be a part of of of the museum? How how does that work? We approach people and people approach us, and we this sort of, you know, historically, museums have sat back and thought, We will do this for this community. They haven't thought we will do this with this community and they haven't. [00:15:00] It's another step again to go. We're handing this over. We'll support it, can be done by the community. And so we we're kind of in early days, but it is a lot of it is really important that it's it's kind of really relation to it. You know, you you meet someone, you talk to someone and somebody knows somebody, and and and it kind of rolls from there and and I guess ultimately you get, um you know, somebody will say to somebody that museum is open to this sort of thing. We're a really small museum. We can kind of be sort of agile like that. We haven't got big [00:15:30] rules around us, you know? It's like, now one of the things I've been asking other people. It's a wee bit of out of left field. But, um, if you had a magic wand and you could wave it at anything or anyone, what would you waive it at and why? Oh, if I had a magic wand, I'd wave it over everybody. And just like that, they'd be kind, because I think that this world would be a good place. This country would be a good place. This city would be a good place if everybody came from just from a position of kindness. [00:16:00] So, um, my name is Geo, and I am, um, the programme lead for a in Gisborne, um, under the village. And, um, it's just been a space where it's safe for our, um, rainbow to come and just chill and talk about things that's happening. And, you know, um, run functions for them where they, um, [00:16:30] are participating, and they want it. Instead of trying to make something up for them and then forcing them into it. So, yeah, it's all about creating safe space for our, um our as well as working towards them. And, um, you know, building a better future for our for everyone. Um, because growing up in, um, it was there was no options for our. So, um, I guess it's my chance now and with the help of [00:17:00] the director of village to do something for our for our in Gisborne. So how did how did it all come about? Um, so once upon a time, So I'm a, um my background is hairdressing and makeup artistry. And once upon a time, Elizabeth came up to me in the salon and said, She's starting up this programme, um, at village. And it's, um it's for our And she wants [00:17:30] some leaders in there. And I was like, Yeah, sure. So, um, went along with no expectations whatsoever. Um, and five? Yeah, five months down the track. I am here, and I'm working for them. Yeah, So I've left my hairdressing job, and now I'm doing, um, youth work for our, which is great. So can you describe, um, some of the activities that you do. Um, so we've only ran maybe two months worth of programmes. [00:18:00] And, um, what we're doing at the moment is just, um you know, building and structuring our group. So it's solid. But as well as, um, we've got a big celebration for coming up, um, in July, which is a pre and which is very exciting, and I knew their part. And, um, the celebration is actually putting on a wearable arts creation. And within these creations, we'll represent the seven sisters [00:18:30] of. So that's, um, our next project that we're looking forward to. And that's what we're doing at the moment is just creating these garments for, um, celebration. And what's the response been from in in Gisborne? Um, the response has been really good. Um, the the has been real great. They've been coming and going, you know, you do have your solid, your solid few, and then some come and then go. So, um, it's been really good, but I think it's just keeping the consistency [00:19:00] there for, you know, having a space for them is great. And then, you know, um, they will eventually all come one once upon a time. But, um, at the moment, maybe our numbers are looking at a good, solid seven, which is great. And then, um, you know, because we like to work with, um, with quality, not, you know, and you were saying that when you were growing up, there wasn't any kind of group like this? Yeah. So once upon a time, not so long ago. Um, yeah. There [00:19:30] was no, um, support group at all. Um, maybe there was, but I didn't know about it. Um, and, uh, fortunately, I had, um a lady by the name of she was basically my transgender mother. They helped me through my walk in, um, society in Gisborne. Yeah. And then now I think it's my time to give back and ask for our younger ones. So So can you describe what it was like growing up in Gisborne? I'm I'm thinking this is what in the two thousands, [00:20:00] Um, so I think it was all I. I personally enjoyed it. Um, I guess because I'm quite, um, comfortable in myself. It was easy for me. Um, I'm not talking for everyone. I'm just talking from my experience. I. I enjoyed it. There was you know, little rough patches, but I guess you know, everyone has rough patches, and it's Yeah, I was fortunate enough to have, um, family that, um, was really supportive. And I came from a background where there was lots of, [00:20:30] um, rainbow before me, So I just became just another one. Just another one to add on to the list. Um, so, yeah, it was great. Um, having grandparents that, you know, sort of grounded me and having a mom that was fully supportive. So yeah, and I. I find it just amazing how how these groups can actually come out of just one meeting from Elizabeth. Yes. So what actually happened was Elizabeth and Maria, um came to agreement to [00:21:00] do the group, and it was, honestly, just a talk in the hair salon. And then from there we had another guy called Trev. He helped, um, it was me and him that actually sort of, um, helped start it all up, and yeah, and it's amazing how, um how much it's grown from, Just, you know, a picture and a brainstorm to reality. Can can you see a change in the people coming? I believe I can It's just, I guess [00:21:30] because GIs is such a tiny place. Um, you know, people maybe are not comfortable enough to come out just yet, But, um, that's what I want to promote is, you know, hopefully in the near future, um, things like celebrating diversity, um, will become, you know, because I hope that just being whoever you are, it will become normal. And so it just, you know, just celebrating each other's diversity will be, um, amazing. And then everything [00:22:00] is just just comes into line with with, um, all our and stuff. And so today you're here at the, uh, Rainbow Pacifica event in Wellington. Um, what what brought you here today? So, um, came down to Gisborne, and she we had a really good talk. Um, we had a I had a with her and she was telling me about this, and I was like, Yes, I'm gonna come. And then, um, we had a talk with the boss, and she was all good for it. So Amalia happily, um, funded [00:22:30] our trip to come down. Um, come down to Wellington and enjoy the space. And, you know, just connect with, um other rainbow outside of our comfort zone of, um, so, yeah, um, and I was fortunate enough to be put on the spot to do a performance, so yeah, just to top it off and And can you tell me about the performance today? OK, so my performance today is just gonna be a a traditional, [00:23:00] um, that was composed by my grandpa and, um, back in my great grandfather, I should say, back in, um, back in the eighties. So it will be, uh it will be a nice, um, time to just, you know, share share culture with everyone. Um, because, you know, it's I think that's where our identity sort of starts from as our background. And who are we who we are and where we come from, So yeah, and hopefully this my dance may [00:23:30] help our, um maybe our be more, um, comfortable in their skin And who they are as well. If you had a magic wand and you could waive it at anything or anyone, who would you wave it at first or what would you wave it at first and why? Um hm. This is a good question. Who would I waive it at? There's a lot of people who don't wave this one day, but I guess I'll just, um [00:24:00] if I had to waive it at something, I'll waive it at mindset. Um, I wave it in the mindset where, um where things are not so inclusive. So I'll maybe I'll first I'll waive it at schools. I think I'll wave at the mindset of schools, um, to support our and, um have you know, because they like to say that school is a safe place. Um, so hopefully, if we waive [00:24:30] that wand and make sure that, um, the mindsets do change and help, um, help our prosper with education, I think, um, that will be a great, great start to for our young generation. Oh, I'm Taylor. I am currently living in Gisborne. And the reason why I came today was to support, um, Rainbow to support Lei and to support, [00:25:00] um, Rainbow community. Um, in this amazing event, um, we also have a young person. Um who, um, does some work with us at village, um, which is a space central space in Gisborne. Um, that was created last year, so I wanted to come down and support her. Could you tell me about Geo's work in the village. So Geo is obviously you've met Geo. She's a beautiful. She's, um she has decided, um, [00:25:30] her and a few other young people have decided that there needs to be a really safe space. Um, for young people in Gisborne, um, who identify as rainbow. And so she's created that space. Um, you know, like, she creates little activity, um, nights and things like that. And she, um, hangs out with, um the kids. We've had a few upcycling, um, clothing, um, initiatives that she's, um, actively part of. So, yeah, she's like, she's like the creator of all cool [00:26:00] things for Rainbow in Gisborne. Why is it important to have those safe spaces? Well, I think, um, especially in Gisborne. We've got some high statistics for some pretty, um, you know, for some quite sad things, um, suicide being one of them. And, um, we've got There are not many spaces in Gisborne that are centric. Whilst we have a lot of, um, education spaces and where young people go, they're not exactly the spaces that young people want to hang [00:26:30] out in all the time. You know, they're kind of specifically for education or specifically for sports, which is awesome. But there's no spaces that are specifically for to just go and chill and and be safe and and meet other and and have some just have, like activities. It's not really like a Yeah, there's no real drop in kind of centres where we were back in the day, you know, there were drop in centres. Um, there's not anything like that in Can you see [00:27:00] a change in the, um you know, starting out coming to Geo's group and then, you know, a couple of weeks later, um, I have I've already seen, um, young people be just I mean, Geo's got this whole thing around, Um, being your authentic self and which I think is amazing. I. I think it's not just for young people. I think it's for everybody. Um, you know, we all are striving to become more of our authentic self, and but the young people that have come into her space have just become a little bit more vocal. Um, they're [00:27:30] smiling more so we've met some young people who have kind of come in, you know, with the hair down and kind of, you know, and now it's Hi, you know? So even, you know, people might think, Oh, you know, Well, it's not much, but it's actually huge in a place like, um um, and I actually think that it's probably huge in other areas, too, where young people are kind of you give them a space to be able to express their authentic self. They're more likely to, um, feel more comfortable and seen. So [00:28:00] there's this whole thing about not being invisible anymore and actually being seen not being, um, and and also being heard. So it's been pretty amazing. She's pretty on to it and her team are amazing, and they're all young people. So we should just sit down and let them do what they need to do. What's the future of the group? Um, I know that the group have, like I said, that it's it's run. So they're making [00:28:30] decisions about where they want to hit. So they've, you know, they're strategically thinking about and putting in place now, um, little kind of what do you call it? Um, just steps towards, um, making it more, um, sustainable. Um, as I don't know, if you know about, um, but, you know, we're quite there's a massive rural community there, so we've already has already started, um, connecting in with some coast, um, and that so that's [00:29:00] so and and as a result of that, every fortnight is now gonna be part of her. Um is to travel up to the coast and connecting with those and create together what needs to happen for them. So it's it's I. I think it's gonna be ongoing. I don't think I don't think it's something that's just gonna stop tomorrow. It's not. It's not like an event where you have an event and then it just stops. It's one of these, um, she's really focused on making sure that it's, um, it's the after events. It's the follow on that's, um, really [00:29:30] important to her and her team. So she's got She's got four in her team at the moment. Youngest is 16. So what do you think? The biggest issues facing, um, in in, um, I Well, what I've heard from and her team is that a lot of it is about not being, um, seen not being seen and not being heard. Um, they're still feeling like they're kind of, you [00:30:00] know, on the outside of anything. Um, um, so, yeah, that's those are some pretty big issues in a place. A small town, like or a small space. Like, um, we are like I said before, we were already hit by a whole lot of, um, other dumb steps. Today you're here at the, uh, rainbow Pacifica, Uh, events in Wellington. Why is this [00:30:30] event important? Uh, so it's not just because, um I know Lela, and I know the work that she does, but I think for me is it's actually to support, Um um, to really allow again a space for rainbow to kind of, um to to them, um and to to man what? It is that important for them. [00:31:00] I think that's really important. And that's why we've come down to or I come down to. I was asking Geo, um, if you had a magic wand and you could wave it at anything or anyone, what would you waive it at first and why? That's a hard question. I'd want to um I suppose I'd want to, like, waver over every person or every ideal or idea or out there that, [00:31:30] um that kind of forgets, um, people who are marginalised or, um or just Yeah, and I would probably just go. Yeah, jump jump in everyone just so that it's a little bit more inclusive and a little bit more, um, culturally safe.

IRN: 2934
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/dr_hjelmar_von_dannevill.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004581
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089875
TITLE: Dr Hjelmar von Dannevill
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Julie Glamuzina
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1890s; 1910s; 1920s; 1930s; Africa; Amy Bock; Aotearoa New Zealand; Archives New Zealand; Australia; Denmark; Edith Huntley; Germany; Hjelmar von Dannevill; India; Japan; Jared Davidson; Julie Glamuzina; Katherine Early; Lahmann Health Home; Mary Bond; Matiu / Somes Island; Miramar; Rev Edward Bond; Royal Commission of Inquiry (1918); STI; San Francisco; Sydney; Timaru; United Kingdom; United States of America; Wellington; Women's Anti-German League; World War 1; brothels; children; clothing; colonisation; dress reformist; education; examination; feminism; fraud; health; health care; health home; imprisonment; integration; journalism; lesbian; military; music; nervous exhaustion; police; pronouns; spying; suicide; travel
DATE: 27 February 2020
YEAR: 2020
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Author and researcher Julie Glamuzina talks about the extraordinary life of Dr Hjelmar von Dannevill. The doctor arrived in New Zealand in 1911 with little documentation and began working in a health home in Miramar. During WW1 von Dannevill was investigated and then imprisoned on Matiu/Somes Island in Wellington harbour. Jared Davidson has also written about Hjelmar.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So the photograph in front of me is a photograph of the woman known as Doctor Hilmar von Del. The photograph shows her with a high neck, um, kind of shirt with a tie, a waistcoat buttoned up, Um, a jacket over the top of it. Um, at the time, it may have been described as more masculine. Um, then she has a skirt, which at the time would have been described as a fe A feminine. Um, she's got a nice [00:00:30] pair of shoes on. Um, the photograph is a full frontal. Um, and then a side shot as well. It's a mug shot taken at the time that she was, um, arrested and put on to Somes Island in 1917. Um, I'm not sure whether the photograph was taken. Um, outside, Um, the home that she worked in the health home she worked in in or whether it was taken actually on Somes Island. [00:01:00] I suspect on Somes Island, but I can't say I'm sure about that. And you're saying, uh, you're using the pronoun she and I'm wondering, um, I, I know that there was some discussion at the time whether, uh, this was a male or a female, correct. There was. And, um, So the first thing about that is that, um the question of whether she was a female or male was raised, Um, at the time that the police were investigating her, um, with [00:01:30] a view to incarcerating her as a German spy. Um, she had been to the police in 1914. Um uh, sorry. A little bit before then. Actually, um, and she had been examined, I think, in 1911 by, um, a a nurse, Um, who declared that she was a female. Um, she was examined again in 1917 by a medical doctor. Um, one of her social contacts. Um, [00:02:00] and, uh, he confirmed that she was a female. Um, it's in my view, it she's categorically female. There's no question about it. The questions around her sex were raised in the context of, um, the police and the authorities, wanting to nullify this woman to, you know, control her and to contain her and contain her influence. Um, they didn't raise a question about her clothing in 1911, 12, 13, [00:02:30] 14, 15, 16. Um, but suddenly, when she was, um, arrested in 1917, uh, then the media coverage sort of hyped up and talked about. You know, her, Manish, Um clothing, et cetera, et cetera. Um, um, for in my my point of view, um is that her clothing represented, um, the the women of the day who wanted, um who would be put in the class of dress reformists. Um, so feminists [00:03:00] who wanted to, um, um, address in a more practical way. Um, in a way, in a way which suited, um, you know, their view of the world rather than the, um, very, um encumbering, um, dresses and skirts and, um, constraints. Um, in my view, kind of a, um um a Western view of foot binding is how I would put it. Um, it's not quite a good example, but, [00:03:30] um, again, it was constraining clothes that constrained how women moved, how far they could go, what they could do, and so on. So it was part of the, um, late 19th century, um, feminist first wave of first wave of feminism, saying we we want to address how we can, how we want to. We don't want to be constrained. We want an education. We want access to money. We want the vote, We want, um, to be protected. Um, I think there also is another reason for her high [00:04:00] collar, um, which hasn't been brought out. Um, but, um, I know she claimed that she had tried to commit suicide, um, in earlier, prior to her arrival in New Zealand in 1911. And, um, documentation indicates that she did have marks on her neck that could have been from a failed, um, hanging attempt. So, um, I imagine that she would not want to expose [00:04:30] herself and expose her neck, Um, to the general public. So, uh, that's, uh I think you know, you've got to look at the detail you've got to look at. What? What do the documents say? So clearly she was a female. Clearly she was a She She There's no indication that she considered herself a man or wanted to be considered as a as a male whatsoever. None whatsoever. Um, you know, she had lots of interests and she had some political interests as well. [00:05:00] So So where did she come from? And and how did she end up in Wellington? Good question. Where did she come from? Is, um, a question in itself, um, in Wellington in 19, you know, during World War One and she claimed that she was born in Denmark and that she, um she came here to, um, II. I think she came to settle down. She claimed that she came with her female friend. [00:05:30] Um, her female friend was, uh, not in the best of health. And she claimed, um, that she had come to New Zealand because it would be, um, nice. Nicer for her friend. Um, and she might, you know, survive better in a better climate than England. Um, she might have chosen the north of New Zealand rather than Wellington, but if the weather was the problem, But, um, at that time, but, uh, that that's what she said. However, I think the reason she came, um, [00:06:00] apart from wanting to settle somewhere, maybe to escape from something in in the UK. I don't know. Um, but I think the trigger for her arrival was to, um, work in the health home, which was being set up by another, um uh, by another woman in Wellington. Actually, a fully qualified medical doctor who wanted to set up a health home. Where do you get the staff from. And I believe that she knew this other woman prior. [00:06:30] So So you've been able to track her back to the United Kingdom? Um, yes. Well, we know she was there because that's where she, um, you know, boarded the ship to come to New Zealand. So definitely she was there. Um, I believe her, um, statements that she travelled throughout Europe. Um, and that she travelled throughout the rest of the world. Um, and there's some documentation to support both of those statements. Um, she claimed while she claimed she was Danish, Um, it's unclear [00:07:00] whether she actually was, um, she could have been Danish. Technically, um, because, um uh, in in 18 64 there was a war between, um, Prussia in Denmark, over the states of Schleswig Holstein, southern Denmark states. Um, so there was a dispute over who who should control those territories. Um, and in 18 64 those territories, um, fell into German hands rather than, you know, back into German hands. Not into, um [00:07:30] uh, Danish. So And if she had been there in 18 64 then technically, you know, after the, uh, German victory, um, she would technically be a German. Um, she could be actually a German from, uh, a part of Germany rather than a demo. We don't actually know, but, um, the question around whether she was Danish or German came up because of World War One and the anti German, um, propaganda here and the [00:08:00] regulations as they apply as they were applied to German people, um, in New Zealand at that time. So it would be better for her to have been Danish rather than German. And when the authorities, um, accused her or were told she was a German spy, then it would be better for her to say she was Danish. Whether she actually was or not is unclear, because we can't track it because we don't know what her real name is, actually. And And you [00:08:30] you've referenced a number of times saying that she claimed this or she claimed that. Where are you getting these claims from? Is this from the police investigation? Yes. Um, when she was, um, put on to Somes Island in May 1917. Um, she was interrogated. So, um uh, and the interrogation was quite full. Um, and we have a record of that. So it was sort of documented in the files in national [00:09:00] archives. And, um, you have the question of the M, the police, and then the military authorities. Um, they questioned her about her background. Um, What did Where did she come from? Who were her parents? Um what help? What was her education? Um, was she a doctor? Um, where did she get her degree? Did she have a degree? Where did she travel? Why did she travel? Because it looked very, very shaky. Um, you know, what is this woman doing travelling all around the world? Um, to some, [00:09:30] um, British colon. You know, colonial, um, areas. Um, she speaks multiple languages. Um, she has no documentation. Um Hm. This sounds like a German spy who's going and gathering and, you know, information about, you know, possibly troop movements or you know, how many people are in a certain area? Um, or a certain location. So, um, you can see why they were asking those questions, but that is documented on the other side. Is, um there's also [00:10:00] documentation, um, associated with travel movements. Um, there's documents that she signed. Um, there are, um, independent, noting about her, um, for example, about her neck, the injuries on her neck. Um, there are, um, uh, newspaper accounts, um, of her giving, Um, uh, recitals. Piano recitals of giving talks. Um, so there's sort of direct, um, direct [00:10:30] evidence for, um, some of her claim that support some of her statements. Um, at the same time, we know that she told lies and and and was untruthful. And I think partly for self, probably mostly for self preservation or to protect others. Um, that she was associated with at that time. Um, the censorship in in during World War One was pretty, um, pretty detailed. And, um, Jared Davidson has written [00:11:00] a book called Dead Letters, which is about the censorship and how that was, um, you know, carried out. Um, heaps of letters were just opened, You know, nothing was, um um, you know, private and and the censors and all of their minions read the letters. Um, if you were associated with German people, if you spoke German, um, if you were of German origin, then you were, you know, um, deemed suspicious. So, [00:11:30] you know, since she was under investigation, um, she they asked her How did you know? Um, the the other the woman who owned the health home, Um, and she was very shifty about that. She said, Oh, I just arrived in 1911, and, um, we had a cup of tea, and we just hit it off and, you know, a week later, you know, she's staying with her. Um, so I think that is that's unlikely, because I know that she and the doctor were in [00:12:00] the same location in India in the 18 nineties. Um, so And for some period. So I think it's most likely that they actually knew each other prior to 1911 and perhaps the doctor wanting to staff the health home. Um, perhaps she wrote to her and asked her, Do you know are you available? Can you come and help set up this health home? Um, so, I, I think that's more, you know, very possible. Um, So I did [00:12:30] I answer your question? I'm not sure. Absolutely. I'm wondering. How is he the doctor received when she arrived in Wellington in 1911. She was received. Um, very well, um uh, the newspaper accounts, um, refer to her as, um, very intelligent um uh, a great, you know, a very competent musician, Um, able to play the piano Greig and list. And you can imagine the list list pieces are not simple. Um, but she played [00:13:00] those pieces on the piano in the town hall. Um, in 1914. So in in the opera house, down here, Um um, to to a big audience. And, uh and they said, Oh, she played it very well. And, you know, with great vigour and and so on. And, um, and that she was most interesting and, um, could speak multiple languages and could comment on the topics of the day. And, um, you know, she was very well received as [00:13:30] a very interesting person as well as a very educated person. And you were saying that she was employed in this health home? What was the health home and what were her duties the health home was situated in, And I believe it is part of the workshops. Um, so, uh, I think even before that, it was a girls home. Um, but, um, it it was, um, the health home, uh, was [00:14:00] part of a property that had previously been a, um, entertainment um, park, which had fallen into bankruptcy. And so, um, doctor Edith Huntley purchased that property, including the house. So it was a a lovely old house. Two story, Um, and she wanted to set up an independent health initiative. Um, based on, um, um, the principles of, [00:14:30] um a German physician called, um uh, Lehman. Doctor Lehman. Hence Lehman Health Home, Um, which caused them a problem when the world when the war broke out. Of course. German name German. You know, um, So, um uh, she wanted to just do something different, I think, and wanted to provide a facility. Um, she had mostly they were paying clients. Um, but she did have, um, as she [00:15:00] put it, charity cases from time to time to time. Um, and they just wanted to do something different. It's not unusual. There were other private medical places in New Zealand as well as overseas. In Germany, there were lots. Um, so it was not not a weird thing to do. Um, they weren't It wasn't particularly liked by some in the medical in the medical establishment. Um uh, he duties were to, uh uh, she performed massages. Um, she took, um the clients to Lyle [00:15:30] Bay to sea for fresh air exercise. Um, the things that we would say today are very common sense. Like good food. Good exercise. Um, Sunshine, sea air, um, water, um, you know, loose clothing. Um, which at that time when you see how they're all wrapped up? Um, I think, Oh, yeah, that's quite radical. Really. Um, so her her duties were to assist in that in that area. Um, And it [00:16:00] I believe it was the her relationship with one of the clients at that home that triggered, um, the attention of the authorities, such that they wanted to put her away basically. And that first attention from the authorities was that before World War One or, um, the special attention around whether she was, you know, you know, what the hell was she doing in the health home? There, um, was 1916 through 1916 [00:16:30] and, uh, came to culminated in her arrest in 1917. Um, when she first arrived in Wellington, she apparently went to the police herself and said that she wanted to let them know that she was a female and that she was here to, um investigate and look into their venereal diseases. And that's why she might be, um, frequenting brothels and such places. Um, and then she said, Well, she wanted to dress [00:17:00] in a more, um, you know, practical way, because she wanted to go hunting and fishing. And, um, so she she gave them various, Um um, explanations. Um, and I think again, that seems weird. But if you think what was happening at the time, and not long before then was, um, the case of Amy Bock, um, which a lot of people know about, um And she had, um, masqueraded as a man, married [00:17:30] a woman, um, and then was found to be, you know, a female. And, um, she deliberately did that to get access. Uh, I mean, there's multiple interpretations of, you know, what was Amy Bock doing and so on. But, um, there's no doubt about the fact that she was a fraudster, whatever else she was, but she certainly did try to extract money and stuff from people. She was released from jail in 1911. Um, so it could be that the authorities had in mind. And, um, Doctor Huntley would have known [00:18:00] that too. And Perhaps she, um, advised hilma to go and say, Well, actually, um, even though I may be dressed like this, I'm not an Amy Bock. You know, um um, that's my suspicion. Um, 1914. Someone claimed that she was a German spy, and the authorities didn't pursue that, um, any further. And it was only in 19, um, in the latter part of 1916, that they seriously started to investigate him. And that [00:18:30] was after, um, her relationship. Um, I think with the woman in the health home became more public. And the reason it became public was that, um, the woman, um, was the wife of a vicar, and she had come to the health home. Um, obviously, you know, with some anxiety, Um, she had suspected that her husband had been having [00:19:00] an affair and her husband actually denied it, denied it. And then eventually, in 1916 admitted that he had had an affair, so she instituted divorce proceedings, and that was reported in the newspaper. Um, quite fully. And L gave evidence, and her evidence was, um, reported in truth. Um, as a consequence, um, the vicar made a complaint to the police. Um There was another party that made a complaint to the police and said, This woman [00:19:30] should be looked into and, you know, and the goings on at the health home, um implied, but never said anything specific. Um, the result of those investigations were that a number of people, former clients of Helmand, the health home were actually very supportive of her and refused to talk to the police and said she did me a great service and she really helped me. And no, I'm not going to cooperate and so on. So that was insufficient. Um, you know, for them to put her [00:20:00] away, um, you have to remember at the same time, um, the anti German propaganda was really, really vociferous, especially the anti um German, the women's anti German league. Some of those women were in L social circle. Um, they were very vociferous in, um, pursuing people who they thought were, um, potential spies and so on. And the authorities had to be seen to be action. You know, these, um, people who were supposed German spies. [00:20:30] So I think there wasn't really any evidence that she was spying. There wasn't an evidence there wasn't any evidence that she was, um um a male masquerading as a female or a female masquerading as a male. They were. They cleared that up. Um, they then fell back on. Well, her papers, they were She had no papers when she came to New Zealand, so she can't prove who she really is. She can't prove that she's not a German. Um, So, [00:21:00] um, they said that the the decision from the solicitor general was that she was to be placed onto Somes Island until she could, um, prove to them her bona fides. You know who she was and where she came from. Placing her on Somes Island was no help, because how could she prove it from there? She could only, you know, answer their questions. And she tried very hard to answer their questions and fill in the gaps and and so on. But at the same time, I you can tell from her statements [00:21:30] that she was, um, still telling untruths and probably protecting other people. Just just, um, going back to that first physical examination that was. Did that happen in, like, 1911? Yes. Um, a nurse was called in to examine her and, um, the nurse said Yes, she's a female. And then apparently, according to the police, she came back later and said, Oh, no, I I'm not sure if she is because, you know, she went through elaborate preparations prior to the examination. I don't know what that was or [00:22:00] what that could be knowing, um, later that she was examined in 19 6, 1917 by the medical doctor who then said, Yes, she's a female. So it's that that first examination was it, um, helma saying examine me? So she was actively going to the police saying I am a female. She was actively going to the police, saying, I'm a female. I want to dress like this. Um and, um and and what they asked was she prepared to undergo an examination and she said yes. [00:22:30] Um, can I have, um, my doc Doctor Huntley, examine me? They said no. OK, another woman. OK, so she didn't say Please examine me. They suggested she be examined and she said, OK, um, in 1917, she had no choice. And I think that was, um it must have been very humiliating for her to be examined by someone that she had, um, you know, social interactions with and had been, you know, seen at social events and political events, [00:23:00] um, in Wellington in the previous year, in the years prior to that, And then to have to, you know, submit to an examination by a male doctor at that time. Um, in that way, I think was pretty, um, pretty awful. And the relationships that she was, uh, potentially being accused of of having with other women. Was there any foundation to that? They didn't accuse her of having, um, a relationship with the woman. They, [00:23:30] um they speculated that she had undue influence over the patients, especially women. That's how they put it. So they they couldn't, um and they didn't prove they never proved that she did anything criminal or wrong. Um, but they imprisoned her anyway on the island. And I think again you have to look at the surrounding circumstances. What was, you know, the World War one anti German hysteria. The activities of the anti, uh, of the anti um, the women's anti German league. Um, [00:24:00] the complaint from the vicar after the divorce. Um, and he, um, suggested that, um perhaps she was after his wife's inheritance. So, uh, there was no evidence that she was after his wife's inheritance. Um, there was no evidence that she'd done anything wrong. Um, so that's part part an answer. Um, the other part of the [00:24:30] answer would be, um, Was she involved, um, either romantically or sexually, with women. And, um, I think I would veer towards yes, rather than towards No. Because in her past, all of her connections and the the people that she said she interacted with on a personal level were female. And, um, she also when she left New Zealand, she left with this [00:25:00] woman. Um, so on the other side, did she have any relationships with men? There's no evidence of that. But there is evidence of her having relationships of some kind with a number of women by her own account and by what we saw in 1916, 17. So, um, I think it is, um, reasonable to suggest that she had relationships with women, and it's reasonable to speculate, um, that, you know, did [00:25:30] she have a sexual relationship with, um, the woman in, um, in the health home and and and the clients of the health home. Were they, um, solely female or No, it was. It was mixed. Um, there were, um uh, men and women. Males and females. Um, there were professional people. There were, um, some working class people. Um, there was a vicar, um, farmer farmer's [00:26:00] wife. Um, um, yeah. So a range of people, um, you'd have to say most of them would have been I would have to have had money to pay to be there. And but, as I said before, they did take, as they put it, charity cases. So they took people for free as well. Um, uh, unfortunately for them, the it was not a going venture. So and by 1916, they were already having trouble paying bills. Um, [00:26:30] so they had, um quite a number of clients, but they they couldn't make it a going concern. And from 1916, um, even a little bit before I forget. Now, Um, Doctor Huntley was trying to, um, sell it. How was she taken to the island? Was she arrested? Was she forcibly removed? Um, they didn't have to force for they did forcibly remove her as in, they said, Now you're coming [00:27:00] with us. She didn't resist. Of course not, of course. But she didn't, Um she was, um, taken by the police, Um, escorted by, um, several police to the, um boat, which went out to the island. Um, put on the boat with a couple of police. They were told to watch her, you know, so that she didn't try and escape or, you know, kill herself, jump overboard, or, um, and then on the island, she was handed over to the military authorities, [00:27:30] But, no, she didn't resist. Um, and, um I mean, where could she run? You know, where where would she where could she go? She's pretty, um, distinctive. And you were saying that some of the interrogation interviews happened on the island. So? So the investigation hadn't even been finished. It hadn't been finished. And she was, um, questioned, um, earlier by the police, Uh, and when? And that's correct. And, um, [00:28:00] before she went to the island, they had already ascertained that, um, you know, she was female, so that took away one of their problems. As I said before, um, and there was no evidence of any wrongdoing. Um, that they could you know, you know. Put, uh uh, you know, direct evidence, Um, and yet they put her on the island. Anyway, she was the only woman on the island. There were several 100 people there. Men. Um and, um, [00:28:30] yeah, just It's just a sort of you. You sort of wonder what the condition and what she must have thought going on to that island. Um, there's been a lot of, uh, complaints from the people who were incarcerated on the island. There were actually some prison actual prisoners of war. So German military, uh, navy naval people who had been captured. But most of the people were New Zealand. Uh, when you, you know, had been living in New Zealand for some [00:29:00] time? Um, there was a German band that had been visiting, and they were put on there. They weren't doing anything. They were just playing music. But they were, you know, plunked on to the island. Um, and, um uh, so the the German prisoners of war said we're not being treated correctly. We have rights under the Geneva Convention. And, um, those complaints were, um, suppressed. Um, and and it wasn't until 1918 that the government actually held a commission of inquiry into the conditions [00:29:30] on the island. So, um, and they found that the conditions were awful. Um, the the housing inhabitation was awful. The sanitation was awful. Um, the the guards, some of whom were criminals, were, um, brutal and had, uh, you know, prone to getting drunk and carrying on, Um, and some of them some of the prisoners have been beaten up, Um, and so on. So that's the kind of scenario she was placed in. Um, and I [00:30:00] You know, I do wonder why there wasn't a file as to what she did on the island. You'd think the only woman you'd think they'd be writing it all down, and maybe they did. And then maybe they destroyed it. Or maybe something really bad happened to her for six weeks later, she was released, um, suffering from, as they put it, nervous exhaustion. So you can take that in two ways. Um, that could be the excuse of the authorities to take this woman off there so that they're not going to be liable or held [00:30:30] up to scrutiny for anything bad that it might have happened. Um, on the other hand, perhaps she had been abused. So, um, you know, I, I we can't be sure, but I think going to an island, that's all. Men. The guards are not the best, Um, that there wasn't proper control over their behaviours. How do you not? How do you know that she wasn't abused? You were saying that, um, [00:31:00] she's the only female on the island. Are you aware of any other females in New Zealand that experienced the same level of, um, I'm not sure what the right word is. Scrutiny or punishment. Um, you mean, at that time? Um, there were other women who were imprisoned or incarcerated, um, on island in Auckland. So there were. There were 22 [00:31:30] internment islands in World War One. So island now, so island and, um, island and was more like a bit of a resort. Not quite because they were incarcerated, but, um, the men who were incarcerated, some of their wives were allowed to be there. Um, and it was a totally different story in Somes Island, So yeah, there were women who were on in those internment camps. Um, in terms of treatment [00:32:00] of women, um, the general principle and the general information, Um, that I've seen in the historical and other accounts of treatment of women who, um, transgress, uh, that they are treated very harshly and more harshly. An exact example. I don't I can't say at the moment. That's exactly equivalent to helma and her circumstances. Um, you could look at the treatment of, say, Amy Bock, um, or other women who at [00:32:30] the time who transgressed and who were criminal. Um, but, um, yeah, I think they were really harsh on women who stepped out of line. And so there are. There are no records of how she survived on the island. She did? No, no, not a single thing. There's only the interrogation. And yet for the male attorneys, there are There are records. There are the records. Um, there's records [00:33:00] about, um, some of the prisoners who, um, uh, fell ill. And what happened or who, um, you know, um fought back against the guards or who had made complaints, and they sent letters out to to say this is what's happening and, you know, do something about it. Um, so, yeah, there are records and from the commission, there's, uh, documentation in the Royal com in the Commission of Inquiry of 1918 letters [00:33:30] from, um, some of the people, um, some of the men who are on the island who complained So, um yeah, I. I just find it very unusual. We were suspicious. I'm really suspicious. Were there members of the public that were lobbying on the doctor's behalf? Yes. Yes, they were, um, and and that's why I say, um, when she was released six weeks later, um, I think, um, [00:34:00] the authorities were kind of pushed to maybe go further than what they or the government. Sorry. The government was pushed to go further than maybe they wanted to, um, they didn't really like the activities of the anti um, the women's anti German league. Um, they thought they were a nuisance. And, um and that, um, you know, they'd gone too far. Um, but they had to be seen to be addressing. You know, these spies supposed spies? Um [00:34:30] uh, So when she came off the island, uh, and they said she was suffering from a nervous exhaustion. It could have been an excuse that the government used to to show that yes, she had been there. Now they better get her off, because now she's, you know, ill. Um, or it could be that she had been abused and the and they thought, better get her off and not make a bigger problem about it. Um, so, yeah, I think you know, there's a number of ways you could interpret, because [00:35:00] if she hadn't been taken off the island, would she have been there for the remainder of this? Yeah. Yeah, because, um, that's what happened to the other prisoners they were there for, um, you know, until the end of the war. And then at the end of the war, Um, those who could not, um, you know, who are designated alien IE? They weren't naturalised New Zealanders. Um, they they were told they should go back to Germany, and they actually, um, evacuated. Um, I think a couple of 100 people back to Germany. [00:35:30] Some of them hadn't been there since a child. Some of them had been born here, but not born. But, uh, had been here quite some time and, um, didn't want to go back to a post war German state or a place away from their actual home, which was here. Um so it was really awful. New Zealand's treatment, Um, of the German people in World War One. So after, um, island, where did helma go? She was released [00:36:00] into the care of, um, Doctor Huntley, um, and to the health home. And there were restrictions placed on her. She was supposed to remain within a certain distance of, um, Wellington. Um, the women's anti German league hounded her. So she was later seen, um, in Timaru. And so they quickly wrote, and what they have. What's she doing there? Why is this, um, German alien? Um, you know, what is she doing down there? Blah, blah. She's meant to [00:36:30] remain in Wellington, Um, et cetera. So there was a lot of scrutiny on her. The anti German league seems to to to to have a very wide reach. Was it was it across the country? Yes. Yeah, they had, um, branches. Um, and, you know, not just in Wellington, but in other places. And they used them actively. Um uh, they they were really, um uh, they they focused on, um they're local. [00:37:00] So they looked at, um, people here who held positions, Um, in government. Um, in, you know, in the military and question them and, uh, and question why they should have these jobs since they were German and then, you know, set about to get rid of these people from their positions. And, um and they did other things too, like they were, you know, on the hunt for [00:37:30] Germans and, uh, a spy wherever they may find them. And, um, one of them made a made complaints to the police and said, there's someone, um, signalling possibly to a German submarine and cook straight and, uh, on at one point and the police went to investigate and found. Actually, it was a very windy night, and there were street lights, and there were trees, you know, flailing in the breeze. And actually, what was signal? Signalling was really just trees, um, [00:38:00] flailing in the breeze in front of a street light. And, uh So, um, um, they they were instrumental in, um, pursuing, um, a number of people who had German background and, um trying to get them out of their jobs. Um, yeah. So So So what actually happened to Helmer after that? So she, uh, as as as we said before she was released into the care of of, uh, doctor Huntley. Um, so [00:38:30] she remained in New Zealand until 1919. And, uh, in 1919, she left for, um, Sidney with, uh, the woman from the health home, Uh, the ex ex client, um, they went to Sydney. They were there for a year, and then after a year, they went to San Francisco. And that's where she remained until her death in 1930 in San Francisco. Um, and while she was, uh, so she tried [00:39:00] to make a living there by being an alternative health practitioner. Um, so, um, but she she she really didn't, um, have any wealth at the end of her life. She was very in very dire circumstances at the end of her life. And how would you describe that relationship with that other woman? Well, it was obviously a close one, and it was a caring one. The woman had Children, and the Children, um, wrote letters, um, to very warm, [00:39:30] um, you know, letters which indicate she was very kind and, um, quite engaged. Um, with that family, Um, with the woman and her Children, Her Children went to the U as well. Um, and, uh, and she she they lived, um uh, in the same place at one stage and in in different places. So, um, my speculation is that it was a, um a romantic and sexual [00:40:00] relationship. That's my speculation. Um, and based on her previous, um, history of relationships with women based on the close relationship at the time based on, um, the fact that she, um, you know, was clearly close with the woman and her Children, Um, and that she went with her and that they lived together and so on. So at, at the very least, you can say it was close [00:40:30] and warm. Have you tried contacting any relatives? No, I haven't, but, um yeah, good point. Good to it would be good to find, um, more information. I know that, um, her, um the other woman lived in the US for the rest of her life. And her Children, um, came there as well. Um, so potentially there's more information there that, you know, could someone else could reveal I was more interested [00:41:00] in, Um hi is, uh perhaps, uh, as I've put it, a woman of her times. And see here is an interesting woman who did some very interesting things, and, um, they sound very outlandish. But when you think of other women who were doing similar things at the time, then maybe it's not so outlandish. And, um, there's no doubt she was very well educated was a good musician, um, had travelled extensively, [00:41:30] um, had interests in health and in promotion of, um, the health of women and Children. Um, you can see that from her activities here in Wellington, you can see that she was interested in general health and wanting to, you know, do good in the world. Um, from her activities later, um, that her interests were very female oriented. Um, and that, um, and that there was throughout the world at that time, um, communities of similar interest [00:42:00] and of similar activities. So, yeah. Is there any, um, uh, evidence or or or or anything documented that, um, that shows how how I responded to the events in New Zealand. How How? How did she find it? Yeah, um, there is, um, she at the outbreak. So, for example, at the outbreak of World War One, she went to great [00:42:30] lengths to show that she was not a German supporter, that she was a supporter of the British. Um, uh, she was involved in raising funds for the war. Uh, for, you know, on the, um, uh, British New Zealand side. Um, she, um And there were multiple events like that. Um, so there was the war Belgian War Relief fund, so she contributed money. The [00:43:00] home contributed money. Um, in relation to, um, the status of women and Children at the time. She, um um, agitated along with Doctor Huntley and other, um, women doctors at the time, um, to improve the lot of women and Children. Um, they Huntley was a foundation member of the Society for the Protection of Women and Children. Von Dave was involved in that as well. She [00:43:30] was involved and gave speeches and talks to the Moral and Physical Health Society, which was similarly wanting to improve, you know, conditions for women and Children. And, um uh, and she was a member of the Pioneer Club. So she responded to her situation here by wanting to become part of the social world there, the social world here, the social elite, um, at the same time as wanting to help those less, you know, not so well off. Um, so, [00:44:00] yeah, I think it shows that she had multiple interests. Um, that she wanted to do good. She wanted to, um, settle. And, um, I think the fact that she I mean, maybe she didn't anticipate it, But the fact that she was prepared to give evidence in the divorce case, perhaps that indicated that she felt secure enough in her position here. Um, perhaps she was subpoenaed. I'm not sure, But in any event, she did [00:44:30] give evidence, and it was pretty clear evidence. So I think that indicates that she was, um, sufficiently embedded here and felt sufficiently comfortable to think that that would not cause her a problem. In researching, um, the doctor, you've had to unpick up a whole lot of, um, truths and and maybe not so truthful things. How have you gone [00:45:00] about researching this? First of all, we have the words of the person themselves. So we've got lma's words. Um, then you have to think those words were given in the context of an interrogation. So she's going to be cagey about some things and not so cagey about other things. So How do you, um, decide which [00:45:30] bits you think are being Which, um, which of her words are being cagey and which are words that are truthful. Um, So the next thing then for me was to look at other other sources. So corroboration, external corroboration of the things that she, um, mentioned, um, Or claimed. So, for example, she claimed she'd been a journalist. So in 19 05. Is it [00:46:00] possible for a woman to have been a journalist in 19? 05? Well, yes. Um, was it possible to have done the things that she claimed she'd done in 19? 05 as a woman? Yes, they were. Because there's evidence of other women doing similar. So, um yeah, so that's looking at, um, corroborating evidence, either direct or contextual. So, um, um, it's direct evidence that she arrived here in 1911 February. It's direct evidence that she had, um, physical injuries on her neck. [00:46:30] It's direct evidence that she, um um is a female. It's direct evidence that she was in similar India in, uh, in the 18 nineties. It's direct. Um, that Doctor Huntley was there overlapping. They were there at an overlapping time. So that's that's direct. Um, it's indirect that, um [00:47:00] there were women travellers in the world. Um, she claimed to be a, uh uh, travel to lots of places. It is direct that she came here. It's direct that she was on a ship, Um, on the coast of Africa. Um, because we have a shipping record. Uh, about that, um, so Therefore, if she was on that ship, is it possible that she could have been in in, um, Japan? Is it possible she could have gone to America? And I think yes. So, [00:47:30] um, is it possible that she was researching venereal diseases as she claimed other women at the Well, there was a lot of interest in venereal disease and a cure for in the 19th century. And there were lots of people men and women who were searching for, um um, cures for that disease. Um, there's an example of a woman travelling. Um, I think it's in Alaska searching for a cure for [00:48:00] some disease. I can't remember. Um, but, you know, this was not She's not the only person doing this as a thing. So then you think OK, it's possible. Um, I can't prove that she, um there's no direct evidence of her going into a brothel, um, to ask about the neal diseases or to, um, talk about venereal diseases with doctors other than her own words. And since they were her own words And since some of her words are lies, um, do I believe that or not? [00:48:30] So, um, I think you know, again, if there's context that shows it's possible, then I would tend to think that's possible. Because, in fact, during the interrogation, it would be better for her to have said she hadn't been to so many places. It would be better for her to lie about that, but she didn't. Um, the other thing is that, um, one of the people, um, interrogating her was a military person, a military, uh, an English military [00:49:00] major who had been in India, and he questioned her about particular places and locations in in India that he knew about, and she claimed to have been at, So um and he was, um, satisfied. So you couldn't make it up. You know, she she could have Did someone tell her about these places, but she didn't know what questions she would be asked. So she gave her answers based on her experience. And I think those things you can believe, So that's kind of an example of a direct [00:49:30] or a corroborating, Um, kind of, um, connection does that. Does that make sense? It does. But I'm also wondering why then can't you necessarily trace her back prior to say the United Kingdom? Why is she using a different name? Because we don't know what her real name is Because I can't find, um, von Deville anywhere. And, um uh, you can see. Um, actually, [00:50:00] you can see, um, Danny von Daville in her movements. Um, but prior to, um, you know, prior to her arrival in in New Zealand, there's one evidence of Danny that is her. Because, um, we can say that it is because, uh, her signature was on a on the document, and it's equal to her signature. Um, um, you know that she, uh, documents she signed here, and we know that she signed [00:50:30] them because the police said or the military authorities said so, um, we know that, um, that's the case. But prior to that, um, we we don't know that that was actually her name, and she she said that those were her parents names, but they don't can't be traced, so it's likely that that's a made up name. And if that's a made up name, then what's her real name? Um, she claimed to have used a name [00:51:00] when she was studying to be a doctor, and she said, Oh, I made that name up. But then maybe that's her real name. But it's such a common name you would never know. So, um, hopefully someone might be able to trace it, but I wasn't able to. And in the end, I thought it wasn't. Um it wasn't that important. Like her real name. It's of interest. But, um, in terms of what does her like What? Um, the comments about her life and what kind of life she led. And, um, how [00:51:30] did she represent? Did she represent others of her time? Um, I don't think it's, um, truly important. Just thinking in terms of her, um, the investigation against her and also her internment. Do you think, um, helma was persecuted or was it a justified, um, an investigation and internment, or was she just unlucky? Hm. [00:52:00] Um probably all of them. Um, I think at the time, anyone who, um, was suspected of being a germ, even a German sympathiser. Even someone saying I think the German people are a great race. That was enough to get you investigated. So in that context, then it's you can see it's justified It, um uh, in the sense that they had, um the authorities [00:52:30] investigated anyone of suspicion, and it didn't take much for them to be suspicious. So in that sense, she's one of a number. And, um, Jared Davidson's book, um, indicates there were other people who were investigated, um, possibly for their political views, not because they were real spies, but the war regulations gave the authorities licence to clamped down on, um, all sorts of transgressions and, um, you know, non. Um, [00:53:00] you know, people who didn't toe the line and she was one of them, um, you asked, Was was it justified? So, on that basis, yes, But on the basis of did she do anything wrong? And was she really a spy? I don't think so. And was she persecuted? Yes. I think she was hounded definitely after that. And I think they um, put undue, um, attention on her and in my opinion, because [00:53:30] of her relationship with the woman in the health home. So what do you think? We can learn from the doctor's life And from what happened to her here in New Zealand, I think, um, looking at her as a person, Um, I think she was a survivor. She obviously had, um, a number of challenges Prior to her arrival in New Zealand, She had challenges [00:54:00] here, and then she had challenges in the US in San Francisco. And, um, she she kept on, you know, she didn't let it stop her. Um, you'd think after what happened to her in New Zealand, she'd just go and try and be obscure, but no, she went and continued trying to do, um, useful work. Um, so I think that's, you know, she's very brave, and I think that's, um, good to see. I think that's one thing we can learn. You just keep [00:54:30] going. You don't let them, you know, crush you. Um, I think, um, in terms of the wider context, I think we can see her as a woman of her time. And we look at the um, things that she was trying to be different about. Um, so, pushing the rights of women and Children and the and the position of women and Children at that time, Um, trying to make a difference, Um, [00:55:00] in the face of, you know, quite conservative and hostile. Um um, dominant society. Um, I think we need to look at, um, the British colonial society that was in place here And who did it suppress and who did it enable. And, um, look at how they just sort of took over the country. You know, I, um Oh, it [00:55:30] it's now a British colony. You know, there were people here. How do they you know, um and so look at now, when people are saying this was our land, you need to compensate us. Of course. Um, look at, um uh how the German the people were treated who didn't fit in or were suddenly objectified. So, um, Germans were objectified. [00:56:00] Um, I think I I didn't show you, but there was, uh, you know, documented evidence and pictures of, um, German businesses, their windows broken mob rule. Um, you know, now, now it's you know, this group is not OK. And the authorities then say this group is not OK. And then you have these, um um societies that whip up the frenzy around it, um, rooting out the hog is, you know, [00:56:30] one of the, um, newspaper headlines rooting out the hun hog. Um, so if you're a German, uh, you know, you're gonna feel really, really bad. Um, I think we can learn from that. And just finally, if you had a chance to meet, uh, what what would you want to know? What would you ask? I'd say, Who are you? Really? [00:57:00] I'd say What? How did you go about it when you were investigating the venereal disease? You know, how did you meet the people you met? How did you meet famous musicians? How did you come to meet them? How did you come to um um you know, get involved with this work? Um, how did you, um how did you experience the colonial elite in Wellington at the time? What did you think of it? Um how did you feel on Somes Island? How did you feel when you escaped? How [00:57:30] did you, um how did you manage to survive all this time? and I'd ask about the women that she had been involved in with. And, uh, I'd also ask, Did you get into any trouble with the police after you in England or in Europe? You know, um was she, um Was she a political, um, escape, you know. So, yeah, I'd have lots of questions to ask her, and I'd say, Oh, what did you think about what I wrote?

IRN: 2932
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/wellington_international_pride_parade_2020.html
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089879
TITLE: Wellington International Pride Parade 2020
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VOICES: Alex Anderson; Andre Afamasaga; Andy Foster; Benjamin Moorhouse; Brad Christensen; Bruce Stubbs; Chris Bishop; Chris Hamblin; Corie Bly; Corrie Parnell; David Erskine; De'Anne Jackson; Des Smith; Elizabeth Kerekere; Fleur Fitzsimons; Garth Bloomfield; Gene Saunders; Georgina Beyer; Grant Robertson; Jackson Whitham; Jim Gilmour; John Jolliff; Judy Virago; Karen O'Leary; Kate Aschoff; Kay Jones; Kay'la Riarn; Lee Millen; Lisa Archibald; Louisa Wall; Lyn Burgess; Marja Lubeck; Mark Masterson; Maryan Street; Nicola Willis; Nicola Young; Pamela Hancock; Patsy Reddy; Paul Eagle; Richard Arnold; Richard Tait; Tamati Shepherd; Tania Bermudez; Teri O'Neill; Tim Barnett
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2020s; Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC); Air New Zealand; Alex Anderson; Amanduh la Whore; Andre Afamasaga; Andy Foster; Aotearoa New Zealand; Benjamin Moorhouse; Brad Christensen; Bruce Stubbs; COVID-19 (coronavirus); Chris Bishop; Chris Hamblin; Christchurch terror attack (2019); Corie Bly; Corrie Parnell; David Erskine; De'Anne Jackson; Department of Conservation; Des Smith; Different Strokes Wellington (DSW); Elizabeth Kerekere; Fire and Emergency New Zealand; Fleur Fitzsimons; Garth Bloomfield; Gene Saunders; Georgina Beyer; Governor-General of New Zealand; Grant Robertson; Green Party; HIV / AIDS; Hoiho Yellow-Eyed penguin; Jackson Whitham; Jim Gilmour; John Jolliff; Judy Virago; Karen O'Leary; Kate Aschoff; Kay Jones; Kay'la Riarn; KiwiRail; Lee Millen; Lisa Archibald; Louisa Wall; Lyn Burgess; Marja Lubeck; Maryan Street; Meridian Energy; Metlink Wellington; Mr Bear New Zealand; NZ Falcons; NZAF Ā whina Centre; National Party; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF); New Zealand Police; Nicola Young; Out at PSA Network; OverWatch (NZ Defence Force); Pamela Hancock; Patsy Reddy; Paul Eagle; PeerZone; Piki (PeerZone support project); Powershop; PrEP (Pre-Exposure Prophylaxis); Programmed Property Services; PwC New Zealand; Radio Active (Wellington); Rainbow Greens - Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand; Richard Arnold; Richard Tait; San Francisco; St John Ambulance of New Zealand; Tamati Shepherd; Tania Bermudez; Teri O'Neill; Thin Edge of the Wedge (film); Tim Barnett; Tīwhanawhana; Tīwhanawhana Trust; Undetectable = Untransmittable (U=U, campaign); United States of America; Wellington; Wellington International Pride Parade (WIPP); Wellington Pride Festival (2020); Young Greens of Aotearoa; condoms; diversity; empowerment; gay; lesbian; massacre; parade; penguins; pride; trans; transexual; visibility
DATE: 7 March 2020
YEAR: 2020
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Oh, darling. It's like Wellington got food poisoning and spewed out of rainbow. We are sitting right in front of me. We've got motorbikes with pride flags. We've got a bus that is riding with pride. We've got in the HIV coming down. We've got all these lovely motorbikes. So they'll be the Charlie's angles, don't they? And they'll be absolutely spiffing. But we are absolutely excited, aren't we, darling? And who? Who are you here today with? I am here for everybody, darling. [00:00:30] I am absolutely here for I walk with everyone and I share the accomplishment with everyone. I think love is the answer to everything. No matter, even if it's disagreeable or even if it's full of tension. There is always love and always look for the people that are helping. That's the main thing. And most importantly, for a pride like this in a community that is unfortunately so divided, we need to start loving and listening. And I'm hoping this year will be [00:01:00] the platform. I'm Ben Morehouse, and, um, I'm here with Papa, the Department of Conservation and our Rainbow Network Group and a couple of penguins as well. Yeah, we do have a couple of, um, Hoy penguins. So being as the pride, uh, theme this year was water, we went with a marine biodiversity theme for our float. So we've got two giant Hoy with a big rainbow behind them. So how did you How did you create them? Yeah, So it's wire meshing. And then, [00:01:30] uh, paper mache and then a load of paint. And if you look into the ute, you'll see that they've got some pretty incredible feet and And that was done in house. Was it? Yes, it was. We did it all, um, as a joint group, um, led by one of our Rainbow Network members. Laura Mansfield. Um, and we did it all. Um, yeah, in, in house, within to and? And do you penguins have names? Yes, they do. And we've gone with Kevin and Steve. Um, purely because it fits into a nice chant that we have that we'll be [00:02:00] saying during the parade. Goodness, you've got chance. Yes, we do. Would you like to hear? OK, cool. I'll go for it. So we've got, uh, 2468 wheel of penguins. Gay or straight? 1357. R Hoy. Steven, Kevin So how many dock staff are here today? Yeah, so we're hoping to get around 30 dock staff. Um, coming from Wellington. Um, so, yeah, across a few different offices in this area? Yeah. And why is it [00:02:30] important for Doc to be here? Yeah. So, Doc is, um, really making sure that it's supporting its rainbow, um, to be able to celebrate diversity not only for the rainbow community, but like across the whole of the organisation To show that, you know, diversity inclusion is so, um integral to the work that we do as a government department. One of the criticisms of organisations and Corporates is that, uh from some of the community is that it's just this this one day a year where you come out and do the pride [00:03:00] parade. But you don't do anything during the year. What is that like in dock? Yeah, that's a really great question. I would say that our Rainbow Network is incredibly well supported by the organisation not only to come out today and celebrate with the rest of the organisation, but also through working with us to change the way that the department works as a whole. So making sure staff are supported to be able to bring their whole Selves to work. And we have a diversity inclusion network [00:03:30] that through the operational development. So that team is set up purely to work with employee led networks like the Rainbow Network to make sure that those staff feel supported. And have you had any other kind of pride events? Um, over the last couple of weeks? Yes, we have. So, um, on Monday just gone, we had a screening of Thin Edge of the Wedge, which is the documentary that was made. Um, and we we showed it to mark the 35th anniversary of the homosexual law reform here in New Zealand. [00:04:00] Uh, we had a Pride morning tea that was attended by pretty much, uh, half the building. Um uh, on Wednesday and then we had a social kind of pride evening Last night again, senior leaders showed up, and we had lots of people from the organisation, um, all celebrating together, uh, within within the building, which was great. So is this your first pride parade? It isn't which is actually our second year. So we came for the first time, just as a walking group. Um, and this year, Yeah. We've gone one step further by having [00:04:30] our our car and the the Ho Penguins. And what about for you personally? Um, how many prides have you been involved in? Yeah, sure. So, um, actually, Doc has really been a great enabler for me to be involved with a pride, Um, within the parade. I've attended other pride events, but not as a not as somebody who is partaking more as a spectator. So it's really great that Doc is able to support me and the the wider Rainbow Network to actually be in the parade. It's really exciting. Can you describe for me what it was like too much in last [00:05:00] year's pro parade? Yeah. It was really empowering to be able to, uh, be really proud of where I work, But be really proud of who I am and be really proud of who we all are as a collective group, um, and have our organisation, um, support us do that. So it was really empowering and, um, exciting. Now, there's been some talk this year about, um, a boycott of the Pride parade One. Do you have any comments on that. But two. Do you have any thoughts about how we can bring the Rainbow Communities [00:05:30] together? Yeah. So, um, we did have that conversation ourselves. You know, we are a government department, and we decided that because our Rainbow Network is really organic, even though it's supported by the Department of Conservation, the organic ness of our group was we wanted to be here still, so we still feel very community based. Um, it just so happens that we're supported to be here by an organisation that can afford to pay for us to be here and support us. So I guess going forward, um, making [00:06:00] sure that we're we're kind of having those conversations around the community aspect of of pride would be would be really important. Well, I'm actually on my way to an alternative parade event today. Um, I'm a member of a number of community-based groups who are uncomfortable with having the military in uniform and corrections in uniform and police in uniform against requests that have been made. So as part of that wider community, we're having a low key non marching event [00:06:30] on the other side of Wellington today at Glover Park. Um and but I've got friends in this, this community and I don't blame anybody for for walking with the their employer who pays for their food and rent. But, um, I was really pleased to see that the banks had said that because of concern to their staff, they will not be marching in this parade because it is a thing of who is the march for? Is it for community? Or is it for Corporates wanting to spread some, um, publicity relations that actually is about straight [00:07:00] people marching not, um, queer and trans people in their own event. Is this the first time a boycott or, uh, an an alternative event has been held in Wellington? Uh, it's not the first time alternative events, So I wouldn't call it a boycott because while we, um May sort of say, Hey, we don't want to do this. We're not saying other people shouldn't. But a lot of people have withdrawn the risk to support, partly because we've been trying to engage with the organisers for the last sort of two or three years, and there has not been very much, um, willingness to actually come in and [00:07:30] talk the um, that hosted last year that had a whole, um, set of requests to make the, um, pride parade more inclusive. They were basically ignored. And with the chair of whip this year, saying, Oh, he won't come and talk with us because he's scared. Well, to be honest, a lot of our people who have been assaulted by police or correction stuff feel really unsafe in the environment. So, um, up and down the country, of course. In Auckland, there was quite a big separation, and events were held there again because when, [00:08:00] um, pride parades first started, it was back in the day is when um we had, um, homosexual, um, sort of laws against sort of same sex intimacies between men. And it was a protest. And so, over the time, while the protest is not as much say on front and centre, it is still part of the thinking that we don't have full equality in a in New Zealand, especially not for trans and intersex people. So until we've got that, we actually would prefer the community direct what should be happening and not people who are really outside us. [00:08:30] So what do you think can be done in the future to to To to maybe, um, mend Some of these bridges well for is about relationship building sort of across the longer term. And it's not an overnight system, but it's having those conversations and saying, Hey, this is what we're concerned about This is how we we'd like to be involved and just like, um um, co partnership with Maori. It's like we're expecting whose events things are. It's not about the Corporates and the commercial interests. It's about the, um, rainbow and Trans communities [00:09:00] and having their say so being prepared to listen and to sort of say, have open space. And I'm not expecting it to happen instantly. Um, but it's been a really good time, as I said, with the banks listening to their own staff, and we really are sort of appreciate, um, that celebrate together sort of moves that they're saying, Hey, we recognise these issues and we will listen to people. So you're off to Glover Park now? Can you tell me what? What what's gonna be happening at Glover Park? It's a low key, sort of chill out space. There'll be shared food. There'll be music there won't be speeches. There'll [00:09:30] be people getting together, supporting each other and talking about issues, and people will come and go. And I've got a few flags and, um, personally, later on this evening, I'm going to a queer lit event as part of the Festival Writers Festival. But you know, it'll be what people want to make of it, but it's community led, so you know, that's the thing. And it's also a coalition between a number of groups. So the Facebook event for this was shared by Queer Avengers. Um, our organise A which is sort of, um, indigenous action. Um, gender. Minorities have [00:10:00] been on board. We've been in, um, had sort of input from, um inside out, Um, a lot of queer and young, um, trans and non-binary people. So it's It's a general sort of. Hey, we'll make of it what we make of it. And, um, yeah, there's a few rainbow elders like myself, Sort of, um, sort of there. But we're just to support what the the the other people want. Really? I'm Mark Masterson and I'm your roving reporter. I recently acquired this position. It's very exciting. Anyway, what am I seeing. I'm [00:10:30] seeing everyone getting ready for the parade I'm seeing. I'm seeing a cute boy in pink over there wearing hardly anything. And I'm happy about that. And I'm also seeing Look, I've seen some drag queens on this radioactive FM 88 float. That's good. And, Mark, is this the first time you've been to a pride parade? No, I. I have been to pride parades before, but I've not been to one since the middle eighties. I was going to be at one last year. But remember, it got [00:11:00] cancelled because of the shooting. The shootings in Christchurch. So? So this is the first one in a very long time. So can you tell me what pride parades were like in the mid eighties? Because I'm sure that must have been quite different. Oh, gosh. Well, I was in San Francisco, so I was I was at pride 79 80 81 82 83 84. And it was amazing. It was being in June and it was an event, Honestly, Unbelievable. Yeah. And also, [00:11:30] it was a different time, really, with gay identity, it was still something kind of new, and it was still illegal in many places, and there still could be beatings. I mean, that still happens now at times, but it But it definitely was a time where you felt supported and confirmed. And so it it had so much resonance. And it's really neat to be here today to sort of sort of recapture some of that. And that was also a time when [00:12:00] HIV aids was just coming to the fore to begin with, it wasn't there at all. So, you know, something seemed to be happening in 83. So the first few prides were just very innocent in some ways. Yeah, and, of course, being in San Francisco, uh, you you you would have just experienced, um, the assassination of Harvey Milk. Was it 78 79? Um, well, I was I was young, I was about 18, [00:12:30] and and and the elders were all really shocked and I I just moved from I just had just started going to in the Bay area. So that's what I just arrived. And I was like, Who's that? You know, You know how 18 year olds can be? I was just totally that you know who is milk. I don't know, and I didn't understand what a momentous figure he was. And I want to go back to one thing I said before, it was a more innocent time. What I mean to say is that it [00:13:00] was a time before this this bad stuff happened, and so everything felt a bit freer. That's what they wanted to say. I didn't want to talk about innocence and guilt. So today, marching in the pride parade, who are you marching with and what do you expect the feeling will be? I'm going to be following along this float right here because my friend Strea dressed as Marina Attica. You can see her in the red wig right there. She's on that float. [00:13:30] And so I'm I'm going to follow along. And I guess I guess I'm marching. Come to think of it, I don't think animals. I don't think they can stop me, so I'm going to do it. Why do you think pride parades are important? I think pride parades are important because because with our identity and all that, it's important to underline that this is a good thing. [00:14:00] So we used to say something way back in the day. Gay is good. You don't hear that as often now. It's not because I think people do feel that, but you just don't hear that term. But it's an opportunity to really reinvest in that and talk about our sexuality as good. Our sexuality is something we should not be ashamed of. And so this is a space where? Guess what? We're underlining that we are emphasising that we are here for that. Uh, my name's [00:14:30] Marion Street. I'm here today because I've been at every pride parade. Um, that I can recall either in Auckland or Wellington because, uh, supporting, um, the gay, lesbian bisexual transgender intersects the whole gamut of the community is a really important thing to do. I'm particularly here, uh, for young people. We need to build a safe environment for [00:15:00] them to grow up, to be whoever they are, you know, to be whatever they are. And this is a demonstration of support for that. In my view, when was the first pride parade you marched in? Oh, I can hardly remember. God, I you know I'm mid sixties now, I. I don't know something in Auckland in the eighties probably. And what was that like? Because I imagine it must have been quite different. Um, yeah, well, we we didn't get the, um, homosexual law reform bill [00:15:30] through as an act until 1986. So after that, things began to become a bit easier, and it was it was easier to be out. Um, uh, after that and that made a real difference to people, particularly to men. Um, but it made a real difference to everybody. Uh, so that so that parents didn't need to fear quite so much for their gay Children. Um, young people didn't need to fear quite so much, uh, for, [00:16:00] um, a lack of support in their schools or at home or wherever they were. So it it's been incremental. But that was the big breakthrough. The 1986 homosexual law reform. And, uh, and you know, I. I talk to people now, young people who don't even believe that it was ever illegal for consenting adult males to to have, uh, have [00:16:30] a sexual relationship. But now there is a lot more acceptance of people being who they are. That's all you can ask for, really. So not only have you seen these changes. But you've also been part of the changes being a former member of parliament. What was it like being a rainbow member of Parliament? Um, it was It was fine. I never I never experienced any negativity around that. Um, by the time I got into parliament in [00:17:00] 2005, it was kind of almost old hat, except that I was the first out lesbian. Um, of course, there was Marilyn Waring before me and she she lived in a different time in a different period. Um, and her political experience in the seventies was very different from mine in the two thousands. So as a as somebody who went into parliament as an out lesbian, the first one I'm it was simply being in the right place [00:17:30] at the right time. That's all. No special courage required. Um, just determination not to be discriminated against. Do you think it's important to have rainbow people in Parliament, and if so, why? Oh, God. Yes. Because because we're everywhere, quite simply, um and parliament needs to reflect the population. We are a part of the population. Parliament ought to reflect us. So yes, Long may it continue that we have gay, lesbian, [00:18:00] transgender, bisexual MP S in Parliament. What's the feeling you get from marching in a pride parade? Oh, it's very energising. Um, it's energising because it's supportive. And when you realise how much support there is out there, we've gone beyond being a curiosity to be being an established and a respected part of the community. You know, if we stand up for other people's rights, they [00:18:30] will stand up for ours. And that's our That's what we've done in the past. And that's what people are are doing for us Now. They're supporting, uh, our to be who we are. So I'm here with, um, Air New Zealand. So, um and yeah, we've got a bit of a theme going today in line with the water theme of the parade. So, yeah, so today's float. Uh, can you describe who's going to be in it and what it's going to look like? Yeah, absolutely. So we've got, um, one [00:19:00] of our BMW i three fully electric vehicles here, and it's been decked out with the rainbow. Um, and yeah, you'll see a lot of that rainbow cot today. So, um, we've got a bit of a sound system in the back. There's going to be bubbles coming out in the water theme. Um, and then we'll have, um, crew. So crew and pilots, um, holding the rainbow flags. We've got the big banners which are going to below out the back. Um, and then everyone house will be dancing. Um, and we've got four choreographed songs, I think as well, [00:19:30] so yeah, it should be fun. Can you explain the choreography? Um, no, I can't because I'm driving the vehicle, so I haven't had to learn the choreography. Um, but they're practising that right now. Um, up at biz doo. So it'll be good. How many people from in New Zealand are going to be here today? Um, we're hoping around 50 walking, so Yeah. So why is why is it important for you New Zealand to be here? Um, I just think it's a really important part of our diversity and inclusion. Um, you know, that we do have in the workplace. [00:20:00] So, you know, we do try and foster a place where everyone can be their authentic self and bring that person to work. Um, and, um yeah, we just want it to be a great place for everybody. One of the criticisms about pride parades sometimes is that there are a lot of Corporates and organisations that just come out for the day and nothing much happens for the rest of the year. What is it like at in New Zealand? Um, yeah. I mean, I can assure you it's not like that for us. It is day in, day out. This is part of our, um, pride [00:20:30] network, which happens every day of the year. So Yeah, it is. It is something we live and breathe every day and myself. Personally, I joined the organisation about 18 months ago, and I felt like, um, you know, just that I could literally be myself. And what does the Pride Network do? Um, so a lot of, um, sort of functions, um, you know, think getting involved in things like this, um, they're at big gay out in Auckland a couple of weeks ago. Um, we have focus groups as well. Um, they [00:21:00] helped get the rainbow tick accreditation for the company, Um, a couple of years ago. So, um, and it just I guess, you know, keeps us visible and keeps us talking about the community, you know, as an important part of the organisation. So, have you been involved in other pride events? So, like the big gay out and, um, stuff in Australia? Um, not personally. So, um, quite a few of the people that are here today, um, have come down from Auckland, and they would have been a big gay out a couple of weeks ago. Um, this is my second parade. So, um, and [00:21:30] it was the first time I got involved, um, when I joined Air New Zealand, so yeah, so can you describe what the first time ever Pride Parade was like? Um, yeah, really An awesome experience. So, um, quite nerve wracking in a way to be out, you know, in front of all those people. But, um, being in a, you know community, like with your workmates and your colleagues, and everyone's the same, um, you know, it certainly made it really easy once we got going. [00:22:00] Why do you think these pride parades are important? Um, I think it it is just really important for the community. Um, brings everyone together, um and yeah, I just think it It's It's an important thing. It's a it's. I think it's very important for Wellington as well. You know, Wellington is generally a very diverse and inclusive place, so it's good, um, you know, to have these events where everyone can come out and support. Yeah, I'm Kayla. Uh, the reason I'm down here today [00:22:30] is in support of my brothers and sisters throughout the LGBT community. Um, being transsexual for many years, I've seen so many changes, but this change for Wellington pride is actually worth it. So why is it important for you to be here today? Um, I actually come down as a favour for a friend, but yeah, I attend to most things of importance over the last 40 odd years. I go, um I mean, like, they have the [00:23:00] out in the park. I personally know the gentleman who started that, and it's still going all these years later. And there's people from our fitness Centre, New Zealand a foundation. I support them fully, but, I mean, I know the person. Amen. And I think she has personally done a good job in bringing the community together. And it's just unfortunate that little groups who you know. Yeah. Bring up problems which are minor compared to the, um, massive scale of things. So how can [00:23:30] we bridge? Um, the the differences or the gaps in the rainbow Communities? Oh, well, my friend and I, uh, her name is Cassie. We had a last year it was called, and, um, I had the idea. We get members of each community to sit, explain what they're doing, and who knows one group might be able to support the other People should stop looking at, uh, advertising and where people work and think. [00:24:00] Oh, I don't like that group. You want to look at the person because it takes guts for them to be in the job they're doing when they're in our com, our many community, and then to come out here in the parade. And I think it's wonderful. Yeah, I truly do. So can you recall your first parade? What? What? That was like? Oh, by the first parade. Um, it was actually a really good we had like, um, drag queen performers. Roads were closed down. We [00:24:30] had use of the entire overseas terminal here, and it was just like a nonstop party. And it was a proper parade. No one gave a crap about who you were. If you were in the parade, you'll be celebrated. And yeah, we got to know people that we see in public at, like, clubs and stuff. So we go, Hi. And we've got good friends, So, yeah, I don't believe in a divide amongst anyone. Now you're wearing a marshals, uh, top and [00:25:00] And the sign, um, so you'll be marching with the Yeah, I want the Marshalls, Um, and I'll be in the front making sure like they're in line and no one comes over to annoy them. We got in there like, um, interests from public, sitting down one of the Maori wardens, which is a good thing because they've been out of the picture for years and also the police are there, but yeah, we just like to main. We're going to be maintaining the flow [00:25:30] of the parade because of traffic. If traffic stops, we've got to stop our crew and make sure you know, health and safety that there's enough spacing and yeah, it should go smoothly. So this will be a continual flow of, um, pride. The parade camaraderie between different places which I actually found. I got here about, oh, half an hour ago. Within five minutes, I was talking to people I have never spoken to. And I think, yeah, I think it's good. [00:26:00] So, um, Bruce Stubb, region manager for, uh, that's one of the regions in fire and emergency. And so I'm representing, uh, all of our people. Can you send me some of the equipment you brought along today? Yep. So, uh, right at the back, we've got a, uh, a rural tanker that's based in upper hut. And we've got a brand new, uh, type one fire appliance. So that's heading to Riri soon. Uh, so that's, uh, um, mainly for urban situations. And here we've got a, um, [00:26:30] a medium double care rural appliance and we and that's on its way. That's brand new, and it's on its way to Ashton. So why is it important for fire and emergency to be here today? Uh, it's all about our respect and inclusion and being inclusive of all of the people that we, uh, serve, uh, across New Zealand and our people that are in the organisation. How many people are here today marching with you up to about 80? Yep. That's the That was I asked before That was the numbers that we had, [00:27:00] uh, had indicated that were coming. So when we put the, uh, request out for people, uh, the team at National girls were inundated, so Yeah, it's it's good. Now, I know that, um, fire and emergency were were here last year. Can you recall what the feeling was going through the parade last year? I wasn't here last year. I was at a another event in the Hawke's Bay. So, um, from what I was told, it was, uh it was an awesome event. Yeah, it was really good. People felt, um, really part of of the whole, um, pride movement. [00:27:30] Um, and just to be part of, you know, another great event, uh, being in Wellington. So is this your first parade? It is. What? What are you expecting? Oh, I don't know what to expect. I'm just, uh, enjoying some time with our people, um, and wandering through and seeing all the wellingtons other other kiwis that are that are out today. Jean Saunders, a network organiser for the out of PS, a network at the public Service Association. And, Jean, can you describe what you're wearing? [00:28:00] Uh, which part I'm wearing a, um, out of PS A wonderful T shirt. One of our a wonderfully designed, uh, network t-shirts. Probably the best one at the PSAI a myself. And, uh, today for the first time ever, I am rocking my, um, drag with my rainbow Mohawk. Yeah, that's me. And so today you're with out at PS a, um, can you tell me a wee bit about out of P A So out of PS a is the P SAS um, rainbow network for, um, Rainbow Peoples. Um, [00:28:30] of of all persuasions. Um, trans queer. Um, you you name it. Um, anyone can basically join. Um, we, uh, keep an eye on what's going on, ideally with other networks and and different organisations that we deal with, um, government departments. And what have you seen? Quite a grow a growth in, um uh, networks being established in those areas, which is fantastic. So we seek to work with them, work with our with our rainbow members, um, offer them, um, added support where necessary or or advice? [00:29:00] Um and, um yeah, just making sure that we have a presence and that we're strong And, uh, and just trying to own that space every time. You know, with the likes of the parades and what have you. Yeah. So in today's parade, how many people are marching? Well, uh, it's a little bit tricky with us. Maybe, um, some of the other, uh, floats or or or or entries are the same because I never quite know how many people are going to be able to make it at the end of the day. So, um, I guess on average, we we've maybe had, you know, anywhere from 12 to 15 people, just a tiny fraction of [00:29:30] our membership or even a a rainbow network. But, uh, we just yeah, you never know. We hope everyone comes. Why is it important for for out at work to be here today? Um, I, I think for me uh, I think it's a really important thing to to be here and be supportive of many other, uh, people from different organisations who are rainbow, who are in many cases also member of members of the PS a know the PS A, um you know, we've got, uh, the department of corrections. We've got, [00:30:00] uh, non swarm police. We've got, um, uh, department of conservation. We've got many different organisations, and I'm really proud to be here and and and in our own small way, um, show these organisations that we care We want to be in the parade with them. We want to be supportive. We wanna, um, put our rainbow face on and and embrace everything. Now, this year, there have been some calls by by parts of the community to to boycott the parade. Um, because it was not kind of by for and about. Uh, firstly, do you have any thoughts on [00:30:30] that? And secondly, um, how do you think we can build bridges and and and kind of mend community relationships? Well, um, the way networks typically run a PS A is that they're member driven. So it's our members who are generally, uh, uh, committee members that in the first instance determine what we what we will or will not be involved in and what that might look like. Um, and so we are a very member driven organisation. Um, personally, I happen to agree with that. I think it's the best approach. Um you know, that's our mandate [00:31:00] to be involved in the parade. And I'm really proud to do that, um, as to how we can continue to build bridges. Um, you know, I would say that we can continue to listen to each other and to talk about, um, inclusion and what things might look like going forward. I definitely know that with this parade, there's been, um, a number of of changes or improvements. Uh, community groups can now enter for free. Um, there's even Corporates that have been sponsoring other community groups to to help with their, um the which is great. And, uh, there may that also allows for the possibility of [00:31:30] financial assistance. It's not a given, but it might be something that can be, um, can be worked through as well. So I think that's a really great approach. Doesn't mean that, um, further improvements can't be made and further dialogue can't be had, I guess all I would say is that, um, you know, that dialogue may take several forms, but it's also important to keep people safe, especially when people are volunteers on boards. And what have you just to make sure that people feel safe and respected and listened to. And then people feel safe to enter into dialogues and talk about what things look like in the future. And just finally, for [00:32:00] you personally, uh, what does it mean to you to be part of a pride parade? For me personally, it's, um I guess it's a number of things, but I you know, the parades originally started out as as protests. You know, if we go back to stonewall and and a number of parades since but in many ways, they've morphed into, um, not that not that protests of one form or another aren't appropriate, but they've also become celebrations, celebrations of diversity in the communities. Um, and I very much personally tend to think about that. [00:32:30] You know, I I'd either to walk around and drag every day, but, um, it's an opportunity to celebrate who we are. We're not We're not in a closet. We're part of society. We're proud. This is who we are. We're very diverse. We want to be here. Um, yet we're having some fun. Um, but it's another way of showing you who we are and that we're not going anywhere, and we are part of society, and we're just as valuable as everybody else. That's what it means for me. Uh, so I'm here with Kiwi rail. That's where I work. And, um, I'm here supporting our fellow rainbow community [00:33:00] and our allies, So I'm one of the allies there. Um, yeah. Uh, I'm in the HR team at Kiwi Rail, proud to be a member of Kiwi Rail and proud to be an ally. So why is it important for kiwi rail to be marching today? Um, it's to show that, uh, peop everyone belongs at Kiwi Rail. Absolutely everyone, um, we're here to support each other. Um, we look after each other. People can have a sense of belonging and that at the end of the day, love is love. Right? So is there, uh, something [00:33:30] like a diversity network throughout Kiwi Rail? There is, um there is also a rainbow network. There's a women's network. There's, um, a diversity governance group as well. So, um yeah, pretty pretty strong on diversity. We haven't been that great, but we're doing really well to, like, progress our, um, company along. Yeah, and so what do those groups do within Kiwi rail? um, so it's about a probably raising awareness, providing some support, um, allowing people to be their true [00:34:00] Selves and feel safe and being their true self. So, yeah, we take safety very seriously. Both physical, mental, well being everything. Why do you think pride parades are important? Because it's celebrating a part of who we are, you know, as a nation, um, all types of people, you know, just as much as I didn't have a choice in being straight, people don't have a choice in being part of the rainbow community. Um, it's just how you're born, and you shouldn't be penalised for it. You should be celebrating. You should [00:34:30] be out loud and proud about it. I'm Jackson. Um, I'm the operations manager in our health transport operation centre. And I, um, currently lead the Saint John, uh, pride network. Um, and we are really proud to be in Wellington to, uh, support our local team down here. Our youth members from around the regions and we've got lots of our people, um, invited along today, even though we don't operate the emergency ambulance service in Wellington. Um, we're super proud to be here now. Jackson, I think we talked last year at the Pride parade. Can you tell me what the diversity [00:35:00] network has done and achieved over the last year? Yeah, we've done heaps of stuff. We've been attending events all around the country, but I'm getting really stuck into the important stuff we've re accredited Rainbow Tick for our third year now, um, and we're just continuing to make, um, movement in the space around introducing policy around, um, transitioning, um, for our train employees, um, and some, you know, introducing training and framework for our staff and managers to support their train staff. So this year, this pride parade in Wellington, Um, there has been a bit of controversy [00:35:30] in terms of calls for a boycott. Uh, do you have any thoughts on that? Look, I, um I don't often like personally to buy into all of that stuff. I think, um, you know, it's all about being inclusive, and I think it's important that everyone's here. What are some things? Do you think that the rainbow community could do to kind of bridge those kind of gaps in the community? I think it's just around about getting around the table and talking about it. Um, you know, I hear a lot of the time, uh, you know, these groups haven't actually had a chance to talk. Um, and I think it's about a lot of engagement, right early on before it gets to the actual event, and [00:36:00] we're seeing Corporates pull out of the parade. You know, a few days out, I think just getting around the table and having a chat. Um, and hopefully everyone can get back and all match together next year. So can you tell me what? Um, last year's march was like, How What? What was the kind of feeling that you had? Well, I think it was, um, with a little bit of sadness, I think, um, after the first one was cancelled, especially for us in Saint John. Um, obviously, the first one was, um, postponed due to the mosque attacks in Christchurch. So a lot of our people were feeling a bit down, and I think there was kind of, you know, the second [00:36:30] date didn't really have the same um, behind it. I think there was a lot of everyone still thinking, you know, the first event. Um, there was a lot of sadness there. So, um yeah, I'm hoping that today is gonna be all about being happy and a little bit more, Um, in the pride mood. Can you describe the weather today? It's absolutely beautiful. It probably couldn't be a better day. It has been a bit windy. We had a whole lot of our, um, pride stickers and stuff flying around typical Wellington. Um, but yeah, no, it couldn't be better. This is actually just a breeze in Wellington. Just a breeze. Yeah, an ambulance might fly [00:37:00] away. So could you describe some of the, um, parts of your float or or some of the things that are in today's parade? Um, so we've got our lovely pride banner. Um, and it has our pride slogan here for life here for love. Um, um, and we've got one of our older ambulances down here, Um, and, um, and with with our events team here, So they are covering the event, Um, from a medical perspective as well. So, um, we're just sort of back to the roots covering the event. [00:37:30] Our, um, trained staff here on site. Um, making sure everyone is looked after. No one falls over and scrapes the knee. Um, but if you do, then we're, um, available as well. I'm and I'm the head of capability and development at Meridian Energy. So, um, here today, we're representing, um, two of our brands. So Meridian Energy and Power Shop, uh, New Zealand as well. Why is it important for Meridian to be here? Um, I think it's really important for us. One of our main goals is, um, a common one across corporations [00:38:00] around bringing your whole self to work. And for me, it's allowing everyone to come here regardless of whether they're part of the rainbow community or a rainbow ally. And, um, just celebrate and loving life and no judgments, and it's really cool. I think that's why it's important to me. Yeah. Can you, uh, describe how many people you've got marching today? Yeah. Um, so in total, we have, I believe, about 80 people. Yeah, so quite great. Uh, quite a big amount. Um, yeah. So we've got, um, employees and their friends and families as well. So we wanted [00:38:30] to make it really open and let everyone to bring their friends. Family Kids? Yeah. Is this the first time Meridian's been involved? Uh, this is actually our second time. So we came last year, and we had, uh I think about 40 people, so we've doubled our numbers. Um, so, yeah, we're hoping we can keep building on the momentum. So, um, did you march last year? And if you did, uh, what was the feeling like did march last year For us, it was quite bittersweet. It was, um, the original. Um, Well, myself and half of the crew are from Christchurch, [00:39:00] and last year it was delayed because of the mosque attacks. And so it was quite, um, heartfelt. Actually, it was delayed, I believe, by two months. And so So, um, it was kind of a really bittersweet moment where we were happy to be together celebrating our lives, um, and our rainbow community. So, um, I think that was quite special. Last year, we had gone through quite a tough time down in Christchurch. And so, um, this year we're just happy with coronavirus that we've managed to get here in time and we can celebrate and still be here. [00:39:30] So for you personally, why are pride parades important? Um, I think for me is, um it really is seeing this buzz on the street having the the faces of everyone going. These are my people. I can be 100% who I am. There's no judgments. And I actually work for a company that embraces that and wants to leverage that. I think that's what makes it special to me, particularly from a corporate sense that, um, you're working for someone who actually values all the parts of you. And there's a real pride and [00:40:00] ownership in that. Yeah, I'm from Gisborne. Uh, but I was here for a long time, Um, founder, chair of trust. And I'm here with our in support of our from the our, uh, cook Island and Pacific. Uh, pride. Why is it important to be part of a pride parade? I think there's lots of things around visibility around celebration of ourselves around, [00:40:30] uh, creating space for people that this isn't their normal life. And they can come in and be here. Uh, and we can see different types of messages, uh, from inside this space. There's been some controversy this year in terms of, um, a possible boycott by some groups. Do you have any thoughts on that? and also do you have any ideas about ways forward in the future? Kilda. I think it's really important that our communities where possible we work together. We do things [00:41:00] in a unified way. Sometimes that does not always happen. Uh, I'm aware that there are different parts of our community have not been happy with the way that this march has been organised and the way things are done and that is really valid. And people want to do, you know, peaceful protest create other events. I'm totally in support of that. We've come here today to support our our our from our Pacific relations and and for our goal is to tell our stories, build [00:41:30] our communities and leave a legacy. So we will take every opportunity to showcase Uh but we will also commit that these organisations and the stuff that's happening, that we will become involved behind the scenes so we won't directly and obviously boycott uh our who are who are organising our community. But we will take a stand and and and contribute to creating peaceful resolutions moving forward. Gath Bluford and [00:42:00] I work for AC C. So I'm one of the, uh, national facilitators for the private AC C network. And I work in the HR part of AC C too. Garth, we've done interviews over the last couple of years. It's great to see you again. Um, what is special about this year? Um, I think this year AC C has come further in its, uh, diversity journey. So we're expecting around 70 to 80 people today to join in, which is just fantastic. So it's sort of it's It's so heartening when you've got so many people that want to be involved who are both from the Rainbow community and allies. So to me, it just sort of speaks that we're just a little bit further [00:42:30] on our diversity journey, which is really cool. One of the criticisms that that some people in the community have said is that, um, organisations and Corporates that are come into pride um are only doing it for the day. But, um, do do you feel that's that's true? Or or what's the rest of the year, like at AC C for for the Pride Network? Yeah, like we are being approached more and more by both, uh, staff members and people in the rainbow community about, uh, getting assistance, Getting help, Really good things happening, Like our property department talking to us about when we get a new building. What's the best [00:43:00] way to set up bathrooms? Um, you know, we've We've had people who have felt, you know, a little bit unsafe at work, and they've been able to approach us. We rolled out our rainbow module, which, um, was for our front line staff about making it easy to deal with people in the rainbow community and being sensitive to their needs. So, um, for us, it's just not a one day of the year, you know, it is an on journey, and we have things throughout the year. Am I right in remembering that you AC C AC C was working on a, um, some software developments where you could be a bit more, Uh, [00:43:30] there were more options for for gender. Yeah, and we're still working on that. Unfortunately, because we integrate with a whole lot of other health systems, that's still remains a challenge. And I guess you want consistency across the health network. But ideally, you know, we don't you know, we want gender markers to be in a place where it's not going to be awkward for our clients. So it's definitely something we're working towards. Um, and certainly giving training to staff about using the right pronouns or speaking to people in A in a way that's supportive as at least a first step. But we do still need to update our systems. [00:44:00] And for today's parade for today's float. Um, can you describe, uh, who's gonna be marching and what they're wearing and what it's gonna look like? Yeah, sure. So we, um we've got some music that we're playing some some nice gay pop anthems. Um, we've got, um lovely AC, C rainbow. Uh, T-shirts with a new design. This year we got AC C flags and a big banner that says, Proud to be with you. Um, and we are really proud to be part of the community. And what gay anthems are you? Have you chosen just sort of the standard ones? Uh, we've got a bit of Diana Ross. Donna Summer, uh, pitch shop, boys. Um, [00:44:30] Lady Gaga. All those really good ones. OK, so, uh, today I'm here with the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. And can you describe the floats the foundation has today. Cool. Well, we've actually done a bit of a collaboration with radioactive. So as part of our float, we're promoting radioactive as a awesome, uh, radio station that does a lot of good work in our community. And then for the rest of the float, we're promoting some of our, um, HIV prevention, um, tools that are available for condoms. U equals you and prep. [00:45:00] There's lots of rainbows as well, obviously, because it's it's a pride parade. Can you, uh, can you describe what the float looks like? Yes. So the float is on the back of a truck. We've got a fabulous giant, um, rainbow flag draped from end to end. It's billowing everywhere. And then there is, um, a fabulous people dressed in a host of people on on top of the truck. So fabulous local drag queens and other personalities, other youth that are really wanting to get behind this. And then we've got our mail, banners [00:45:30] and other bits and pieces just promoting our key messages. So why was it important for the AIDS Foundation to be here today? I think the New Zealand AIDS Foundation is a primary sort of prevention focused organisation. It's about getting our message out to as many people as possible. You know, the HIV prevention is changing dramatically and has has done so in the last sort of three years, from key messages just around condoms to now, you know, prep you equals you and condoms. And so there's lots of different ways that people can sort of look after themselves. Also, it's about [00:46:00] addressing stigma. You know, there's still lots of stigma out there about HIV, and I think this is a great opportunity to show people that HIV is just another condition that people need to manage along with many others. And you mentioned you equals you. Could you tell me what that is? Cool. So you equals you is when an HIV positive person is taking their medication, and after a period of time, they're able to obtain a undetectable viral load. This means that the count of HIV in the system is so low that it is technically almost undetectable. So this means that they cannot pass, [00:46:30] um, HIV on to their sexual partners. So it's revolutionary, revolutionary, actually. And the other thing you mentioned was yes. A prep is a tablet and that can be taken daily, Um, or in another fashion called, um on demand. And what this does is it allows people to take this medication and stops them from contracting HIV. And that's been in New Zealand publicly funded for about a year and a half now. And it is really changing the game around HIV prevention. And it's really changed how the AIDS Foundation, [00:47:00] uh, promotes uh, prevention messages, hasn't it? Because, I mean for for for well, for generations. For decades it was just condoms. Absolutely. And don't get me wrong. Condoms is still a really massive place for condoms. For the queer community, condoms are the only barrier method that will help sort of protect people against syphilis and other STI I but Pre is purely focused on HIV. But it does, um, has made a real It's a game changer. So pride parades. Why are they important to you personally? So personally, [00:47:30] I think it's a really cool combination of, um, using a public space and time dedicated to the queer community to show how diverse we are and that we're not this homogenous group that not every gay man looks like this or not, every lesbian looks like that or, you know, and you go down the spectrum of leaders that are now within our fabulous conglomerate. I think also, pride parades are a great chance for us to really reflect on who is part of this and who is not part [00:48:00] of this. And how can we continue to bring people into these spaces so that we really do represent the broad spectrum of awesomeness that is part of our communities? Have you marched in a pride parade before? Yeah. So I've done quite a few in Auckland. Um, not only with Auckland sexual health, but within some youth organisations. I really think they're an awesome place to celebrate where we are and where we're going. Can you describe the feeling for me personally? It sounds really naff, but I was really proud. I was really proud to be in a place [00:48:30] where I felt comfortable to be really public about what this means to me, but also be sharing some key messages for our community. OK, I'm here with the New Zealand Defence Force. My role is, uh, as the commander of Joint Forces New Zealand. Uh and I'm alongside other members of the new of the New Zealand defence Force. And, uh, happy to be out, be out here on this, uh, beautiful, uh, saturday evening and, uh, amongst a really vibrant, um, vibrant crowd. And, [00:49:00] uh, this is my second time the Pride parade in Wellington. I'm really pleased to be here. Can you describe, uh, your first time? What? What was that like? Well, it was fantastic. I mean, one of the things we've got in the military is this ability to be able to dress up. And it's not, uh, it's not, uh exactly, uh, within, uh, pride parade, Uh, protocols. But it means that you have access to bling, so we we tend to have an, uh we don't have a lot of difficult decisions when it comes to what we might dress in. Now. Last year, there was there was some controversy about having the light armoured vehicle [00:49:30] in the parade. Um, this year, you you don't have that. But you do have other kind of equipment here, don't you? Well, I I'm not I'm not aware entirely of, um of the, uh of the controversy around around having the a V here. Um I'm personally disappointed. It was good to have it there and you could hear the engines roaring. And I know a lot of people took the opportunity to put the pride sticker the rainbow sticker on that vehicle and we had rainbow flags off, uh, off the off the vehicle. And I thought it was, um It was a good demonstration. I guess that we're standing next to a [00:50:00] fence, a fence vehicle. Now that, uh, New Zealand defence force has vehicles and, um what II? I guess it it has a cannon on it. And people were thinking, Well, perhaps it was against the, uh uh, the spirit of the parade. I. I personally don't agree with that. Um but, you know, everyone has their opinion and we're not going to have a lab this year, but we will have a fly by all things going. Well, we should be able to see the Black Falcons later on. And so where are the black falcons coming from? They'll be coming from ahaa. Yeah, up in the man. Why is it important for the defence forces to be here today? [00:50:30] Well, for us, uh, like any other section in New Zealand. Uh, diversity is really important. And, um and, uh, we are stronger. Uh, when, um, more views more, uh, values. And, um, more opinions are incorporated in the way we go about business and the way we think, um, we're an inclusive organisation. And, um uh, the the moment you start, um, uh, sacrificing inclusivity, you start depriving yourself of talent. And that's not what the New Zealand defence Force is about. Can you describe who else is marching today? [00:51:00] Oh, well, I'll have to have a look around. I can see that, Mike, my colleagues from the Air Force and the Army. I'm a naval officer. We'll be marching, and it looks like we're getting together a good group. I'm going to march alongside the chief of Navy. I'm the commander Joint forces and there'll be other senior leadership around it, and it's great to be here. Beautiful day. I remember last year it was actually a bit chilly. Why do you think, uh, pride parades are important? Well, I mean, it's [00:51:30] an expression of diversity, and it's an expression of, uh, inclusivity. And it's an expression of, um, uh, trust. And, um, it's an expression of, um people's confidence to be able to act and and and love who they want and not be judged for it. Yeah, my name's Chris Hamlin, and we're here. We've programmed. Um, it's a property maintenance company. Um, yeah. Into FM and and and trade Services. And so why is it important for programme to be here today? Um, it's [00:52:00] our diversity and our culture within the business. Um, and to support our, um, our workers in the rainbow community. Is it the first time you've you've been in the Yes, it is. Yep. And so why this year? Um, it's just something We came down and had a look at it last year. And, um, we saw the other companies that were around and and just thought it would be good to be a part of it. So when you saw it last year, can you describe, um, the feeling or what? It looked like? It It was It was I enjoyed the parade. It was a really happy time. Um, everyone was enjoying themselves. It was just a really good [00:52:30] celebration for the for the rainbow community. Really? And the weather is really turning it on today. Here in Wellington. We've got lovely sunshine. We have It's awesome. It's, um we've got a you'll see later on a big balloon thing. Um, so I'm not sure. As long as the wind stays down the way it is, it'll be good. Otherwise, we might have a few issues When you say with the wind staying down I mean, it is still quite breezy today, isn't it? It is a little bit breezy, but you get it in little spells as you go between the buildings and stuff. Yeah, so it'll be hanging on. Can you describe, um, the the number of people [00:53:00] you're you're here today with and and also what the What's in the Ute? OK, so we've got the Ute. We'll be at the front of the parade and we're giving away the, uh, water bottles in the back of it as part of the water theme. Um, behind this, we're going to have a, um, a dance routine going on. Um, and there will be about eight dancers that we will be doing. They've got fairy wings on with flights and stuff like that, and then following at the back will be the programme. People with the balloons and and following up the finishing the parade off that way. Why do you think these kind of parades are important? [00:53:30] I just enjoy them. They're, um Yeah. I think they're just really good for the community to be out there. And Yeah, and and for diversity and for acceptance from the people. Yeah, OK, my name is Karen O'Leary. Um, and I'm here to be in the, uh, the Pride parade. Um, and I'm going to be part of the dyke on Bikes group. Yeah. Wow. So I think this is the second time we've had dykes on bikes in Wellington. Can you describe what the feeling is like in in leading the parade? Oh, well, you know, it's momentous, isn't it? I think we're in the right position right up there at the front, uh, leading the way and leading the charge. [00:54:00] And obviously, you know, there obviously has been a little bit of controversy surrounding the parade, but I just think it's a good opportunity to get out there and have a have a really good time and hopefully hopefully bring parts of the community together. So So that controversy is is around about, um, some of the community, not feeling it's by for and about the community. What are you What are your thoughts on that? And, um, what can we do to kind of bring people in? Well, that's that's a very big question. And I'd need a lot of time to answer it properly, and maybe I'd need a bit more information, but I guess for me personally, um, I do see that there are [00:54:30] some issues that need to be to to be worked through. Um, I guess for me as well, I'd look at maybe making it more accessible and free for community groups. And you let those corporate people, um, have their part in the parade and they can be the ones paying all the money. Um, but yeah, making something that is is making everyone feel welcome. Included, I think is absolutely key. Now, last year, you were also in the parade. Can you describe what the feeling was like? Oh, it was really cool being on that big trike. I mean, I wish I was writing it. To be fair, though, I had some man riding it, which seemed a little bit wrong to me. Um, but no It's just a really nice experience, and it's nice to have people waving, cheering, smiling [00:55:00] and feeling happy about who you are as a person. Why do you think pride parades are important? Uh, because I'm gay. No, no, I guess again it puts. Hopefully, it can help provide a positive image out there to people you know of of how important it is for people who maybe are marginalised to to have to be represented and to be visible and to be accepted and and to be included. I'm Richard. I'm the captain of DS W Swim Club. That's different strokes Wellington Swim Club and we're about 12 years [00:55:30] old. We formed just before the out games that happened in Wellington in 2011, and we're hoping we'll have quite a few swimmers along into the parade. Why is it important for, um DS W to be here today? We want to be seen. We want to take part in the community. We are a community group and we are open to anybody, and we're very pleased that any level of ability can come and join us. So we want people to know that we're here and that they can join in, too. There has been a wee bit of controversy about this year's Pride [00:56:00] Parade, with some, um, groups saying, Please boycott the event. Um one. Do you have any thoughts on that? And two, How can we bridge the gaps within our communities? That is a difficult question. We talked about this in the club about whether we'd take part or not. And everybody felt that despite the fact that things aren't perfect between our community and the police, between our community and the government, between our community and Corporates, that nevertheless this is [00:56:30] an opportunity to look at the world the way we want it to be. And this is our one day where we get to do that in the sunshine. So people decided that they wanted to come along. Um, and that's why I'm here. I hope there's there's no trouble. Um, as we move on from here, I think it's important that everybody listens and that everybody says their peace and then finds a way to compromise. I think we won't get anywhere by refusing to see each other's points of view. Can you describe [00:57:00] what the feeling is like too much in appropriate. It's highly emotional sometimes because you realise at least I realise every time that we have the right to do this and not everybody does not everywhere and so that that's a very it's a very big thing to think about that you have the right to say who you are in front of everybody without fear, and that is not something that all of our members have felt. And we've got people from all over the world and some of them wouldn't be happy to do [00:57:30] this in the places they've come from. So that's that's one big thing. The other thing is, is seeing other community groups seeing other organisations marching, marching alongside, seeing friends. People we know in other organisations have to choose which one they're going to march with because they belong to so many. Um so that's a great opportunity as well. Uh, I'm here with the New Zealand Falcons. We're a gay and inclusive rugby team. We're based in Auckland, Um and we've got about half a dozen other guys down here celebrating Wellington Pride. [00:58:00] Why is it important for the New Zealand Falcons to be here? Uh, it just, uh we want to get our get our, um, our brand and our label out there to encourage, um, anyone to come along and get involved in, uh, in sport. Really? How How long has the New Zealand Falcons been around? I think the New Zealand Falcons. We've been around since, uh, 2013. So we're coming into a pretty big season this year with some exciting, uh, international tournaments coming up over the next sort of two years. Uh, so potentially we're taking a team to the Bingham Cup, [00:58:30] which has been held in Ottawa, Canada, in August this year. Uh, and next year, we are potentially hosting the Australasia tournament, Um, which includes us and a number of us, uh, teams from Australia. So within rugby circles, is there still an amount of prejudice around kind of rainbow communities? Uh, I think it's slowly starting to, um uh, decrease. Uh, we've got some pretty strong relationships with some, um, with with with our parent club. Ponsonby. Um, they're behind us. We've got Sue Brian Williams. Uh, you know, [00:59:00] AAA Legend of the game who's, um, behind us? 100%. Uh, and so that that goes a long way to sort of, you know, reducing their prejudice. Why are these pride parades important? It's about celebrating, bringing everyone together. That's why they're important. Uh, you know, we talk about, um, in inclusivity, um, rather than, uh, division. So if that's what we that's if that's what all the parades are about, that's why they're important. We're just about to kick off this year's parade. Can you just describe what you can see it around us? Oh, mate. [00:59:30] Happy. Everyone's happy, right? The sun's out. Everyone's just just booming. The the energy, It's all good. It's all go. What's it like to walk in a pride parade? This is my first time walking in a pride parade. So look, I'm ecstatic. I'm jumping out of my skin to get involved and just be supported by our community. But all of the country. So my name's Lisa Archibald, and I'm the CEO of peer zone, and we are a organisation. We all have a lived experience of mental distress, and we run a youth project called, [01:00:00] which provides peer support for young people and Lisa, why is it important to be here today? Because we prioritise people who are particularly affected by mental distress. And we identify that Maori, Pacific and rainbow communities are overly affected. And most of our team are very diverse community, and they have their own experiences themselves. Is this the first time picky has been involved in the Pride Parade? Yeah, picky is a pilot. We're a fairly new project starting last July. So we're really excited to be here on our first time. So, yeah. Can you describe what the, um, the feeling in the scene [01:00:30] is like here today? I think it's just great that we're able to celebrate people uniquely as they are. Like we're actually having a place where we can all come together and just create unity. Can you describe the weather because it is quite windy today, isn't it? It is typical windy Wellington weather. So, yeah, we've got a lot of flying capes, which is nice, and it's good weather for flags. Why are pride events important? I think it really is that celebration of people. You know, I don't I don't think there's enough opportunities for us to come together and just be uniquely ourselves. I [01:01:00] think there's often the the opportunity to kind of conform or we have to be versions of ourselves to be palatable. And it's great. We can just come out and be colourful and, um, celebrate that. Yeah. I'm a, um, partner at, um PB WC. And, um, today, uh, the three big firms KPMG, EY and PWC. We're marching together to show that diversity and inclusion is bigger than our commercial interests. How many people are marching, Steve? There's about 100 of us. Yeah, from across consulting across the three companies. [01:01:30] And does this the first time you've marched in the parade? Well, PWC went alone last year, and, uh, so we approached our our, uh, other companies and said, Would you like to come with us? Uh, diversity. Inclusion is such a big agenda. And we should show our support from a consulting perspective. And, um, KPMG EY said, Yeah, we'll do it with you. So why is it important to be here today? I just really am supported to, um, support the rainbow community. I'm part of that community. I send a send a message that the big consulting firm we're very rainbow friendly. [01:02:00] My name is Corey. I'm Mr Bear New Zealand 2020. And I'm here with the bear New Zealand Group. Can you tell me what the float is going to be like? Yeah, There will be a bunch of us bears representing our community from all over from Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch and beyond. And it will be a very blissful time. We'll be passing out lollies to the crowd, Uh, and engaging with people along the way. Is this your first pride parade? This is my [01:02:30] first Wellington parade parade. Yes. Uh, but the beginning of the month in February, I did, uh, Auckland Parade as well. Um, and I've done a few in America as well. Can you describe the feeling that you get from parading? Yeah. So it's it's really cool to go out and be a representation for the community, obviously a Mister Bear. So that is my title for this year. But it's just great to interact with the community, get people excited about the pride community, not specifically just bears, but everybody in general. [01:03:00] Yeah, it's a very, very beautiful time. And so when did you win Mr Be in New Zealand? So the competition was held at the end of January this year. What was that like? It was interesting. I didn't know I was going to win. I just entered the competition just to be a contestant. And obviously the rest is history from that point. But yeah, it was a great time. There was There was five total entrants. We had a transgender man [01:03:30] named Richard and then a couple of people from Christchurch and then a handful of people from Palmerston North and Auckland as well. And yeah, it was just a really good time, just getting amongst it, representing the community. And yeah, and so what does Mr Be in New Zealand entail? What comes with it? Representing the community for the next year, going to Melbourne in June for Mister Australasia competition and also part of the Southern hibernation competition. That's the only [01:04:00] specific thing that I meant to do. Otherwise, it's just going out and being a figure for the community and trying to hit as many pride events as possible across the country for the year. Every community is a little bit different in how they plan them and when they happen. But yeah, it's a lot of travelling as well. Why are pride events important? Just community. Just getting everybody together, representing us as a whole, not as individuals or specific groups, but just a community [01:04:30] as the LGBT Q plus community. Yeah, there's no There's no steadfast rule of like where you are and where you are meant to be. It's just where you feel comfortable. I'm Tanya, Everyone. And I'm one of the organisers for dikes on bikes. And we are on Cambridge Terrace about to kick off the Wellington International Pride Parade. And this is our second year. What was the riding in the first year? Like? It was so thrilling? Dream come true. [01:05:00] But this year is even better. Bigger? Twice. Twice as many bikes. Yeah, fantastic. How many bikes have you got? We've got more than 25. I I've lost count. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. Too much like chit chatting and decorating. And I haven't counted them. You tell me. What do you see? Oh, it's at least 25. If not 30. Yeah, great. Yeah, and a trike. And how was it? How are you? Was it to get the writers? I think we did a really good campaign lead up. You know, lots [01:05:30] of posts and lots of sharing to other writer groups. We've got people that have travelled from Auckland from even Australia. Yeah. So it's good. It's been shared. And so we're just starting up now. Yeah. Yeah, we're starting up. [01:06:00] Yeah. I'm Andy Foster. I'm the mayor of Wellington. What brought me here is to support the diversity of our community. It's wonderful to support the LBGTQ I community. And what a fantastic turnout. We've just started walking down Courtney Place. Can you describe what the atmosphere is like? So I'm Nicola Young. I'm a city councillor. I'm also on the Pride Parade Board. The atmosphere is fantastic. The street is lined on both sides. It's an incredibly cheerful, heavy crowd. This is a really joyous [01:06:30] I love it. And, Andy, you've got some bling on you. Yeah, I've got the, uh, the mayoral chains on. So these go all the way back to 18. 40? They've got all the mayor's names on them. Uh, and I've got to look after it very, very carefully. But what's great here is just wellingtons turning out in their hundreds and thousands both to be in the parade and to be watching the parade. That's just what we do in Wellington. Is this the first parade parade you've walked in. It is Yeah, it's my third. And this is the biggest and the best, but it won't be the last. [01:07:00] Um, Lewis. So could you just, um, describe what you're seeing right now? Oh, beauty. Wellington's absolutely turned on a stunning day. Thousands of people. Happiness, laughter, families, Children. It's spectacular, actually. I'm incredibly proud to be here marching with our Pacific of we've got seven countries in the Pacific where we're still treated like criminals, and so we have to do everything we can to address this issue. Can you describe the size of the crowd? [01:07:30] It seems a lot bigger than this. Last year, I think both the crowd and the people marching at just tens of thousands, I would have thought in the crowd, and actually those of us who were waiting thousands like a lot bigger than it's ever been before. Which means that this particular celebration is currency, obviously for Wellington for Wellingtons. But people from around Aotearoa, I believe, who are coming to celebrate and and what is? Um, Look, the reality is we don't [01:08:00] have to hide anymore, you know, we've come from a position of being ashamed of ourselves. But pride really is about us being out about with our work colleagues, with our families and friends with those we play rugby with, and we're in every aspect of society. So this provides all of that. All of us, an opportunity with those that love work, play with us to come out and support. So it's just a big party, actually. Right. [01:08:30] And my name is Andre I'm from. And what's coming up now is the ride with pride, which is the Met link bus. Um, it's got, uh, Met Link on our way. But it's got life healing sunlight, nature, and it's got heaps of colours. And it says I'm the Wellington International Pride Parade bus. And now we've got Fletcher building, uh, coming through. So go here. No, just joking. [01:09:00] So, anyway, it's wonderful some cool guys dancing in the background, Some traders, construction workers, and they've also got a big concrete mixer coming through as well, and some kids as well with their parents. Is this your first PRI parade? This is my first pride parade, actually. So I was at I went to Mardi Gras Sydney last week. Uh, and then I've come over here for this, and I'm just loving it Super, Super cool. And now Winston is coming through. Um, I think it's Winston. It still might be a play, [01:09:30] and, uh, they're coming through again, Uh, big trucks over here. I don't even know how to describe them. And, uh, big flags on the back and they're sprouting water, and we've got another big track coming up as well. So why do you think pride parades are important? Oh, I think it's really important in terms of, uh, you know, if you're partaking in it, you're walking through, you're just having your community, your city, like, uh, you know, cheering you on. But it's just visibility as well, just helping to normalise like, [01:10:00] um, you know, the rainbow community exists, And, um and it's something to celebrate, not something to be embarrassed about or, you know, any stigma and all that sort of stuff. So who's coming up now? OK, so we've got the coca-cola amate um, coming up. So they've got a nice pump car and we've got one lone marcher with them at the front is waving to him right now, and they've got some music pumping out of their car. So two drivers there having a good time and they're close, followed by youth line. So it's a really great service, as we all know, [01:10:30] uh, for all New Zealand young people, but particularly in terms of LGBT, it's a number of them from kids as well. They're handing out stickers right now. And nice big balloons. Cheers for that. And I just got a sticker. OK, we've got beer in New Zealand. How cool is that? So, uh, very beery looking guys coming up. Also see the deputy of Christchurch here as well. Just super cool looking good over there. And, uh, a whole bunch of, [01:11:00] um, cool looking guys here. Got some good music going on. Big play and lots of clapping, Which is good. Very lovely. OK. And you were saying that that, um you went to Sydney Mardi Gras recently? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I went to, uh, Sydney Mardi Gras last week. It was my first time there, and I just had the most amazing experience much with a whole bunch of Christian gay, uh, people of faith, uh, lots of different groups. OK, so we've got the New Zealand Defence Force coming [01:11:30] up. And, uh, very smart looking. They're in their uniform and a full brass band and some drummers coming up too. So you're gonna be able to hear the drums. Uh, any moment now, you probably can run the trumpets. They sound amazing. OK, we [01:12:00] also as part of the New Zealand Defence Force, we've got Overwatch over here and a lot of people in their smart, uh, defence uniforms, people marching as well as some civilians. Uh, too All looking. Very smart and nice procession. We've got the Navy. We've got the defence force. We've, of course, got the army as well. And some young cadets too. Well, what we're seeing at the moment is a fabulous, uh, combination of all sorts of diverse and great [01:12:30] people celebrating our rainbow pride in Wellington this week. And it is wonderful to see all the people who have come out. It's colourful. Um, there's, um, input from all sorts of organisations. It's fabulous. It's what pride should be a celebration. And the pride seems to be getting bigger. And oh, it does. And I think it's looking good. I happened to go to the Auckland Parade on Ponsonby Road. There um, last week. And, um and that was wonderful to see about. 0, 10,000 odd of the public. Come out and enjoy pride with us up there. [01:13:00] So they're similar here in Wellington tonight. You were actually leading the Pride parade, weren't you? Well, that was inadvertent. Um, I walked up toward the front to sort of see if I knew anybody. I didn't know where the VIP venue was, so I just joined everyone else. And then the top spotted me. Oh, and, uh, camp mother and camp leader came running over and just dragged me into it. So there we go. It was wonderful. It was great. So there has been some controversy this year in Wellington about whether a pride parade should [01:13:30] happen or not. Um, did you have any thoughts on this in terms of, you know, whether it should be boycotted or well, there has been a lot of hurt and acrimony, and not just for Wellington this year. Um, but Auckland last year. Let's face it, and I think it's time people as a rainbow community that we prove, um that we can be resilient from this kind of dispute. We have some discontent within our broad rainbow community. We need to address it. Uh, hurt and acrimony will help us. Nowhere just won't help us. [01:14:00] Um, so, uh, we should win. This season, perhaps has quieted down of pride and and rainbow and everything really do seriously address the issues that have urged many people for you Having been part of the community for for a number of years, how does it feel to be in such a large crowds celebrating the rainbow community? Well, you know, it's been a great goal in my life to see us have this kind of thing. Um, I've made my small contribution to [01:14:30] help push things along for us all, not just the transgender community, and, uh, by example. I have to say, uh, you know by saying there is a pathway we can take And, uh, so I think if we work on that, if we work on being able to be who we are, that's what's important. Do it with love and understanding and respect for each other, and listen to each other when we need to be heard. Um, even amongst ourselves And so and with that, I hope I mean, really At the end of the day, we we [01:15:00] do want a unified approach, but it's like any relationship. There will be ups and downs. It's not all fair weather sailing all the time and I know that we are resilient enough. We have dealt with much larger issues than what we have now and we have had the law against us. We've had much of the population against us in many respects. Well, we've overcome that in 30 or 40 odd years. To a degree. We're not entirely there yet for some of [01:15:30] our minorities. But we are trucking in the right direction and that's a positive thing. We just can't let our wider New Zealand public or let alone the world, see us all bitching amongst ourselves, savaging each other. That's not productive, ocean clean from the out into the sea. We are by sea to the sea. We love biodiversity. [01:16:00] Boom. 468 We love penguins, gay or straight. 1357. So could you just describe how the march has been so far? Oh, it's been awesome, and it seems like maybe three times as many people here compared to last year, really high energy big supportive crowd in Wellington. It's fantastic. And who are you marching with? We're with the New Zealand Young Nets, Uh, and the National Party. And why [01:16:30] is it important to be here today? Uh, to celebrate our rainbow community to celebrate LGBT Q I plus And to say that we stand for a world of inclusion where everyone can be who they want to be and we celebrate the diversity in our communities. Can you describe what the crowd is like today? Oh, this is a happy crowd. There are people dancing, they're dressed up, there's colour, there's all kinds of costumes and people are having a good time. Yeah, I'm I'm I'm amazed as I as I say, it grows every year, I reckon. And, um, it's beautiful. Wellington Evening. [01:17:00] It's just awesome to be with the community. OK, so I'm the, uh, Wellington district commander, and we're currently part of the Wellington uh, international, uh, pride festival. So, um, quite a contingent of our, uh, police staff from both Wellington district, uh, Wellington police headquarters and the Royal New Zealand Police College to start taking part tonight. And the the the clapping we're hearing is for the police coming through now? Yeah. Yes, [01:17:30] it is. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, you know, overwhelming reception and, um, really exciting out with our community. Yeah. Can you describe what the crowd's been like tonight? Uh, outstanding. Overwhelming amount of people embracing our diversity, our rainbow community. So, um, you know, it's really exciting. Yeah. Yeah. Why is it important for the police to be here? Uh, two fold. People are the police. Police are the people we represent, the community we serve and the diversity of our organisation. [01:18:00] Uh, it's one of our key values in terms of diversity embracing. So, um, yeah, it's important that we are here. Uh, we'd also like to take the opportunity to recruit people into our organisation. Uh, in terms of the diversity makeup. Um, So you were marching last year, weren't you? I think yes, we were. Yeah. Yeah. How did how did that compare to this year? Uh, this year, I've certainly from our own organisation, we have a greater presence. And, um, general observation. There's a greater presence from the public here today. And certainly from my point of view [01:18:30] today, uh, we've been well received, as has everyone else here tonight? Yeah. Why are these events important again? Trust and confidence is key for law enforcement and particularly for the New Zealand police. Um, we have a very strong and, uh, mission. Uh, we want to be the safest country. So it's important that we're visible with our communities and turn to build trust and confidence. Yeah. So every opportunity we can get amongst the community. Um, that's what we're here to do. Yeah. [01:19:00] So? And John, we've just had the RNZAF fly over. What was that like mine? I don't know. Mind boggling or just amazing. I'm so thrilled that they felt they could do it. It's magic. Were you expecting that? No. And I'm pleased there's the inclusion. I. I didn't like the idea that there's a group [01:19:30] objecting to the inclusion, but it's a pride for everybody. Let's all get in, do it, our rainbow flags right there. And people know it's gay pride. Let's make it a big occasion. Can you describe, um, the crowd today? It's a very mixed crowd and obviously a lot of enthusiasm for what's going on. The, uh, entertainers were very, very well received, and the crowd here waiting [01:20:00] for the next portion of the parade is is animated and quite excited and has been cheering the various groups that have gone past. It's great and the best words were said by John on the stage. What was it? What did you say on the stage, John, he said he was just like being at home. I couldn't get a word in Edgeways anyway. I had quite a few things to say, but I didn't say at all the things you didn't say. What? What would you What? What did you want to say? That [01:20:30] you didn't quite get to say, Well, I want to list Name a few more people because at the, uh, Gay Lesbian Fair, Grant made about a comment about standing on the shoulders of others. So I mentioned Carmen from the late 19 fifties sixties and how important she was as an icon. And then from that, there were so many other people you can mention, but to mention all those names. And there's so many little tales to tell of what happened [01:21:00] in the fifties sixties seventies eighties, right up the homosexual law, reform and beyond. But all these tales is good. Young people hear about because they think, Oh, it's all been good forever. Yeah, there's been a little bit of controversy this year in terms of whether people should actually attend the parade or not. Do you have any thoughts on that? And and how how do we How do we mend those, um, gaps? Well, you always always going to have differences. But I I've feel that [01:21:30] we all should be in this together and I don't like exclusion. And it was like Auckland last year about the police. No, let's all be in it and let's enjoy the day and have our rainbow colours and flag and gay pride right up the front. Now, I think last year you were saying that you were wearing a a police jockstrap. Is that is? Is that the same this year? No, no, no. The [01:22:00] this year can you describe the crowd? Crowd is large, lively, lots of cheering, lots of smiles. You can feel the happiness and the pride in the air. Is this the first pride parade you've been to ever First Pride parade ever. Amazing. I love it and I need to go to more. I actually grew up in California So I was really close to San Francisco, but I grew up in a quite a conservative household, [01:22:30] so I couldn't ever got any of that stuff. So this is my first one. Can you describe what's coming up next? This is out at PS A, and I actually don't know what that stands for. Proud to be union. Ha! I got this. Got some little kids walking the pride I love that I think that's so encouraging to bring family and get family more involved. Mama with a stroller? Love it. I don't I [01:23:00] don't think she's part of the parade, but she's rolling with it literally. We've got some dogs in Rainbow Gear that I think is a cute Love it. Yeah, there is a There's a pooch down there with a little rainbow scarf around them. So cute. So what's your favourite kind of dog? Um, actually have a poodle. My poodle passed away a couple of weeks ago, so Yeah, I love my poodles. Right. Coming up. We have Air New Zealand. [01:23:30] They have the cutest uniforms of all of the flight attendants. And let's see how they stack up today. OK, Some face painting? Yes, all right, They are killing it. They've got the Air New Zealand truck blowing bubbles into the air, and I'm not sure what those are. But they are large, floaty banners that are in rainbow colours. We see some pilots in the [01:24:00] in the parade and probably some flight attendants rocking heaps of rainbow heaps of face paintings. Cool. Yes. Awesome ending. HIV and radioactive. Definitely, definitely a good thing. They've got people on a float. Yes, I love it. We've got some different coloured hair, some sparkly sequin dresses I love. I love the campaigns for ending HIV. I think awareness is [01:24:30] first and foremost the first step to preventative measures if people have to be aware to know what they're getting themselves into. Lots of glitter, lots of rainbows, head to toe, rainbow lots. A lot of I'm so amazing. I just come down to help out, and next minute I'm leading my own sections. It's really, really good. Can you just describe the crowd? The crowd loud as hell [01:25:00] and it's so packed. It's a bigger turnout, I think, than last year, which shows that the message is getting out there about just laugh. Forget about crap It's all about everyone being out and being part of the whole community. So sorry to cut this short, but I have to leave the group. Hey, how are you? I'm good. Could you just describe, um, what the crowd is like today? It is absolutely brilliant. [01:25:30] Definitely bigger than last year. Uh, very happy. Very enthusiastic. Um, giving labour a great, uh has been going down. It's great. And Paul, how have you found the parade today? Ah, outstanding. Wellingtons have really come out this evening to support the pride theme. And hey, it is what it is. Awesome. Why is it important to be here today? Uh, you know, this parade, I think, for me represents coming here 25 years ago to live and feeling a bit insecure about who I was and thinking that [01:26:00] an event like this, I hope all the young people that we've just passed down the road there means they feel included. So that's why it matters to me, Paul, why does it matter? Um, to be here today for pride. It's about celebrating the diversity of all Wellingtons. And I know over the years that, uh, I've been on the Wellington City Council and the member of Parliament. Uh, we've had lots of people come to me and say that Wellington is the place that you feel accepted and you can be who you are. Yeah. Hi, I'm F Fitzsimmons. I'm one of the Wellington City councillors here at the Pride Parade. [01:26:30] I'm Terry O'Neill, one of the Labour Rainbow Wellington City councillors for Wellington in the Pride Parade. Can you describe what the atmosphere is like today? It's a great party atmosphere of inclusion. Yeah, why is it important to be here today? Uh, it's really important to send a really clear message that no matter what your sexuality, what your gender, what? Your sexual orientation, you are welcome and Wellington and our city is safe for everyone. My big labour list MP based up in Rodney [01:27:00] Tim Barnett, a former Labour MP charity manager, just love being here. It's exuberant. It's out there and it's fun and it's even better than last year. Can you describe the size of the crowd today? Uh, when I I wore the same bit of the root as last year, I think it was probably about a third bigger. It was young. It was colourful, and I think Labour got an extraordinarily good response. So why do you think it's important to have these kind of parades to? I just remind everyone that we're here, We're visible. [01:27:30] It gives our allies a chance to be here with us. And I actually think it's important for Corporates government departments in this city to be lining up in support. I think this is one way in which they can do that. So I think I think it has a purpose, as protest has a purpose as well. Uh, my name is Kate. Um, I am the [01:28:00] Rainbow Greens co convenor and we are currently at the Wellington International Pride Parade and we're halfway through the parade. We certainly are. Yeah, so it's been a good one. Can you describe what the crowd reaction has been like? The crowd reaction has been pretty good. Um, we've had a lot of people coming out to support us. Um and we just want to make sure that people know that we're here for all parts of the community now. One of the differences this year is I. I don't see any green MP SW. Uh why is that um, we we [01:28:30] asked our green MP S to not come because there's been a bit of contention and, um, with whip and some community organisations and we wanted to hold some space for that, um, by show by by not having our P present and being that showing that we still are here and support the community even when it's divided. Um, but we also wanted to give a bit of weight to that discussion in the community. Yeah, And how how were those discussions held? How How did you come to the, um, decision? Um, that discussion was, uh, for our Rainbow Greens network, which I myself am a co convenor of, um, which has probably [01:29:00] about 100 or so members and we will discuss together, um, our different options going forward. Yeah. So, um, going forward, How How do you think? Um, we can bring the communities together. Uh, what what are some of the ways we can do that? I think, um especially in the kind of asks that the Wellington and Pride Alliance put forward things around different community consultations. Um, consultations that work for the communities that are wanting to have a voice um, and also maybe a little bit less of a corporatization of pride. [01:29:30] Yeah. Obviously you've got to have the money to get the stuff done. But when that comes at a cost of community, is it worth it? Yeah. So how many greens are marching today? Um, we've probably got about 15 or 20 here. Yeah, a small contingent, but we still want to be present and personally, um, what does it feel like marching in a pride parade? Um, personally, it feels good. It's something I've been doing since high school. Um, it's definitely a lot different this year, but I'm still glad to be here, and I mean, pride parades have changed over the years. So So how would you compare this [01:30:00] to, um, a couple of years ago? I think a couple of years ago, there was definitely, um, a stronger community feel. And now it's, uh there's a lot of organisations a lot of, um yeah, a lot less community. And I think it's still a really awesome to have this event because it lets the public know that we as the greens are a part of us and that you know, we as like the Wellington Queer community are are together in different ways, but, um, it definitely yeah, it feels different. My name is, um, Jackson, And, um, in the parade now is countdown, countdown rainbow [01:30:30] They all count down rainbow and still they're coming. And And so you were parading with and with the Pacific Island people We were, um, standing up for our rights and and the Cook Islands and all the Pacific islands that have discrimination against gay people. What was it like marching today? Oh, beautiful. Lovely. The, um [01:31:00] was just overwhelming. I'm just so so pleased to be from Wellington. So, yes, it was lovely. It was very, very good. Can you describe some of the, um, open polytechnic? Um, and these ones are the Rainbow Department of Corrections. Yeah. Oh, is that wonderful? Wonderful job. And [01:31:30] can you tell me what? What was the crowd been like today? Beautiful, Lovely, lovely. There's been no, Like, we thought there might have been some protesters and some people like, we're going to get a bit angry with us and everything, but that didn't happen. You've been involved with a number of parades in the past. Yes, I have. I have. Yes, Yes, yes. And each year it gets better and better and better. When was the first pride parade you were involved in? Oh, my gosh. Gosh. Gosh. I said that in the [01:32:00] 19 eighties, 19 eighties, so that would have been quite different from today. Yeah. Oh, totally different. Like like they've closed off the streets for us to walk down. We said wouldn't have ever happened before. You know, it was a very closeted, those kind of people. Do you know what I mean? So, yeah, and I I'm guessing the the crowd reaction would have been quite different back in the eighties. Back in those days? Yes. Yeah, yeah. They had people who were sitting on the side of the road that yelled [01:32:30] a name, A lot of things. What was that like? Um, terrifying. Um, scared. Um but we managed to get over it, you know, become stronger people for ourselves, for the gay community. And yeah, that's not going to get us. And so today when you marched how how did you feel? I feel beautiful for for everybody that could not march [01:33:00] with me today. I feel a humbleness from each and every one of them that could not have much with me today. It was just overwhelming. It was beautiful. I just loved that. Yes, Yes, I got a bit of a sore foot. Um, I should have put on a Sanches, but yeah, but my feet a bit. But so So who's coming towards us now? I think these will be the people or the audience that we in in Wellington. They're all coming down to party [01:33:30] here at the war. And we've got a We've got a pipe band coming. Yes, a pipe band always have a pipe band on our marches. They should have been up with us so we could dance with them. Uh, I think that might be Is it the police and the Air Force? Is it the defence force? It looks like the defence force. Yeah, I think for the first time, we've got the Maori wardens here as well. Oh, wow. Very good. [01:34:00] Have good for that. You Hello. It's nice to have all the different diverse members of the community and helping one another. I think it's lovely. The unity [01:34:30] of us here in New Zealand A as as overwhelming, you know, for each and every one of us. And and it allows us to have this kind of a parade, you know? Yeah, that's what I think. And of course, the place. And, of course, the place helping. So, yeah, I know that place. He look like a [01:35:00] and I think we might have reached the end of the breeze. We have. We have Thank you so very much. Thank you for all your, um, news across the nation. And if you I'm Brendan. Um, there's a a whole lot of gay people and gay supporters here. It's absolutely brilliant. [01:35:30] How many people do you think there are? A few 100 at least maybe thousands, I would say. I hope so. It would be awesome to see this level of support. We've also got some awesome drag queens performing. Can you describe what you're wearing? Uh, well, I'm wearing, um, shorts because it's summer. Um, some tacky, uh, black shirt with a rainbow flag and, um, a rainbow flag as a cape and a crown that has a very [01:36:00] cheap one from the $2 shop. That's inflatable with a pride sticker on the front of it. So what has the best part of the parade been Oh, man. Um, basically just being here with some mates from Helen Mari Hall. Um, yeah, we've got some people with their first pride, and it was great, Like showing them where it is and guiding them through it. And, yeah, looking at all the floats and the people just out here having fun and being proud to be who they are. So is this your first pride? [01:36:30] I came to Wellington's Pride Parade last year in pretty much the same outfit. I need to probably change that at some point. Uh, but, you know, um, last year was my 1st 1st pride. This is my second ever. So yeah, it's great to be back here. Can you describe the feeling from that first pride? It's like you don't expect it to be as affirming and glorious as it is, but you really get really excited. Even if you don't think you're [01:37:00] the kind of person to get excited about things. It just feels so liberating to be out and proud. And I'm so grateful to be in a country where we can experience that. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, people of every shape size and sexual orientation. Gender identity star sign Iwi and tax code. You made it through the Wellington International practise. Oh, darling, [01:37:30] look. It's like the entire ticket council came out to see us. And you look beautiful, Wellington. How are you feeling after that parade? You are the heart and soul of this community. Thank you so much for stepping out and showing us your true colours. You know what? I want to say This as well. I don't care if you're Homo SAPIEN, bilingual, transatlantic and homo SAPIEN. You are what [01:38:00] you ate. My name is Mrs Judy Virago. And because this is a family event, I thought I'd bring along my grandma. Auntie, my Lord. God, How are we all doing, darling? Well, for those who don't know who I am, my name is Pamela Hancock. And I come from all the way from balls, and I'm so safe to be here with you all. Um, you are an inspiration to Children. All over. More of a perspiration, Really. [01:38:30] But that's another story for another day. Well, how did you feel about the parade today, Pam? Oh, look, I absolutely loved it. Everyone was there with love. And that's what pride is about, isn't it, darlings? Yeah, that's what it's about. You know, I'm proud to be a woman of balls. And I am proud to be here with you, darling. And I mean that from the bottom of my hand. Cockles of my heart. Wellington, how are you feeling right now? [01:39:00] Take food. Do you feel proud? Do you feel empowered? Do you feel you Nice head? Well, for me, pride is all about empowering our diversity and inclusion and celebrating you, putting you on the pedestal so that we can all feel safe and powerful every day to be who we want to be. Absolutely darling. And it's not every day. Well, it is only once a day [01:39:30] really, that we get such a lovely parade like this to celebrate who we are and where we come from. Alright, Pammy, I think it's time we bring up our amazing board. Absolutely. And the poster kids of the pride parade themselves. Joe and Charlie, please welcome Joe Charlie and the board to the stage. Come on, darling. Well, all I can say is wow. [01:40:00] What a day. I had the pleasure to actually ride in the lead vehicle and we filled the streets. The streets were full. Wellington came out to celebrate pride with us. All of us be so proud for being part of this, uh, party today. I'm gonna quickly just introduce our board because they have worked so hard to achieve this. We have Councillor Nicola Young, Heather, Hanoi [01:40:30] Fraser Show Kane, Thompson, Todd Hamilton Cook. And I don't know whether which name I should use her. So I'm gonna use her drag name Mia. So far, so And where's Amanda? And I'm also gonna mention Penelope England, who unfortunately, couldn't be with us today. She's in Palmerston North with the NZSO. [01:41:00] Um, but you know, all our I know, she's been sending lots of messages of support and all the rest of it. Now, we wouldn't be able to do this without our sponsors. Our supporters and you, You are actually really important to make this all work. And we have a really special guest tonight to actually close the parade for us. And I'd like to introduce Her Excellency the Governor General [01:41:30] Dame Patsy Red to the stage. [01:42:00] Greetings to you all. Now, this is my first time at the Wellington International Pride Parade in an official capacity. And as the queen's representative, I'm delighted to see so many other Queens represented. [01:42:30] So congratulations to all the members of the LGBT Q I plus community who've shown their pride today. Now I was promised lots of glitter, sparkle, rainbows, love and light, and you have certainly delivered and more. It's been a fabulous turnout, I don't know. I reckon it's at least 50,000. What do you think? Must be maybe more What I love about this [01:43:00] the Wellington Pride Parade is a statement of positivity and visibility. To have the freedom to hold a parade like this is very precious. We all love a bit of tinsel and glitter for some of us, uh, more than others, judging by some of the people I've seen today. But behind all this glitz, there is a serious message, one of acceptance of inclusivity and, very importantly, freedom [01:43:30] of expression. Now there've been some hard battles fought by the Rainbow community homosexual law reform and same sex marriage, to name just two. And these battles were successful because of the dedication and commitment to a community determined to stand up for its rights. to live and love freely, but the work but the work [01:44:00] to build a world completely free of discrimination and bigotry still continues. And that's a challenge for all of us. Because together we are a nation. Events like today help with that, using all the rainbow colours of the LGBT Q I community. And I hope those of you close enough can see my fingernails. I'm very [01:44:30] proud of them. I congratulate the board for organising the parade. You've done a brilliant job. It must be the best one ever. I'm sure. Um, I know this year's theme was Water Dive into your pride and you've certainly made a big splash. And I know that event organisation isn't always plain sailing. Um, and you've had to navigate some pretty difficult waters. But perhaps there's enough. Perhaps [01:45:00] that's enough water metaphors. I think I've run out anyway, so thank you for your hard work, which was even more valuable as it's done on a voluntary basis. I'm sure all the crowd appreciate it. But to everyone that participated in the parade, thank you for your time and effort and your enthusiasm. It was it like to watch it and your enthusiasm is infectious, and I mean that in a good way. In fact, I'd love to come [01:45:30] and stay and join you at one of the many after parties that's going on tonight. I sense that there's a big night coming on. But unless I have to sachet away so thank you for bringing some fun, some positivity and some colour to the streets of Wellington. Enjoy the rest of your evening.

IRN: 2929
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/pride_and_prejudice_panel.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004584
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089878
TITLE: Pride and Prejudice Panel
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Anjum Rahman; Bex Fraser; Kay Jones; Laura O'Connell Rapira; SamKate Douglas; Sara Fraser; Tania Sawicki Mead
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2020s; ActionStation; Anjum Rahman; Bex Fraser; Inclusive Aotearoa Collective Tahono; Jeanette Fitzsimons; Just Speak; Laura O'Connell Rapira; Ngati Whakaue; Ngāpuhi; SamKate Douglas; Sandra Dickson; Sara Fraser; St Andrew's on the Terrace; Tania Sawicki Mead; Taranaki; Te Rarawa; Te Ā ti Awa; Treaty Action Poneke Collective; Tuia Encounters 250; Wellington Pride Festival (2020); gay; lesbian; queer; racism; takatāpui; trans
DATE: 6 March 2020
YEAR: 2020
LOCATION: St Andrew's on the Terrace, 30 The Terrace, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the Pride and Prejudice Panel, held during Wellington's Pride Festival on 6 March 2020. A special thank you to the organisers and participants for allowing this event to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um [00:00:30] um um, or see each different property. Oh, still going away? Um [00:01:00] um um hi, everyone. Um, I'm I'm really nervous about standing here because, um, I don't do this in in Wellington ever. Um, I'm from the Waikato, and so it feels like a really new space for me. [00:01:30] So I apologise for my nerves and and for my piece of paper also, um, but welcome here tonight for these conversations, a really big welcome to our, um, speakers tonight. It's going to be wonderful to hear, um, what you have to say to us and a really big welcome to everybody who's here. Because coming along tonight to a conversation like this is really quite is is brave. It's not easy for us to talk about the, um, and to listen about the, um [00:02:00] the oppression that we face and and to talk about racism within our communities and how that can impact, um, all of our communities. And so it's it's wonderful of you to come and to be part of that conversation because those conversations can be quite difficult. Sometimes, um, we ask that you, um, approach it with care. This is a community space rather than a therapeutic space. Um, And so we ask [00:02:30] that you approach the conversations like that if you need to take some time out from any of the conversations, we have some rooms available out there. Um, we've also asked Pyle to be available over there. Um, for people of colour, if there if anything comes up that that you need to kind of talk through, then, um, Pila has got social worker training, um, and is able to, um, provide some support for that For people who are not of colour white people like myself. Sandra is available [00:03:00] for you to talk through. Um, anything that needs to be talked through after the conversation. Um, I believe that's all. I'm going to leave you in the very capable hands of Sarah. Um and then we will close. We'll go through tonight. We will close with a cut of hair at the end of the evening. Thank you. Everyone works killed everybody. As Beck said, I'm sorry. I'll be facilitator tonight. You'll have to excuse me. I'm gonna sit down. Um, my back is not very good, So [00:03:30] OK, so I'll just talk a little bit about what brought us here this evening or us as the organisers. And, um, last year I was involved in, um, talking back, I suppose talking in an organisation that was talking back to 2. 50 and we had a I facilitated a discussion about, um and what it means to be and celebrate and celebrating something like, um cook [00:04:00] and what we could do as colonisers in order to recognise what that means and how to celebrate or recognise or remember in a more appropriate manner than what the 22 50 was proposing. And so from that, um, a very good friend of mine had organised that. And so from that, um, I got talking with Beck and Sandra because they were at that event and we really enjoyed what? The conversations that were being happened. And [00:04:30] so we thought we might like to continue, continue doing it and maybe try to have other events like it and the same person. Lalai Lela sea. She challenged us once. She heard what that we'd had been talking about it and said, Well, why don't you try and put something on during Pride Week and we took that challenge. We were a little bit dubious. In the very beginning, we weren't sure we could pull it together quite that quickly. But we thought, Let's give it a go. And so here we all are. So a big thanks to the four of you for coming [00:05:00] along tonight to share your thoughts and what you do in your daily lives. Um, I'd like tonight to be a bit of a back and forth question kind of thing. Well, I'll introduce the panellists at the moment, and they will tell you a little bit about what they do in their daily lives and how they work towards ending racism in a And then I'll open up the floor and we can just have a bit of a conversation back and forth. But I think it's important to remember that. Yeah, as Beck's pointed out, discussing racism is a really hard conversation, [00:05:30] and it's a conversation that I have found more and more that needs to happen within the queer and Trans communities. Because unfortunately or I suppose it's not really unfortunate, it's obvious, you know, we're we're just we work. We exist in a world and race is part of that world and therefore is gonna exist in our communities as well. So this tonight will be an opportunity for you to hear about what these people are doing and maybe then what you can do in order to support what they're doing, or just to give yourselves a bit of an idea of how to [00:06:00] work out in the community and deal with everyday racism. So on the far end, we have Laura uh, Laura O'Connell. Laura is a member of the Rambo Takata community. She is passionate about unleashing the power of the crowd through digital and community organising effective collaboration, values based storytelling and creative campaigning. She loves new loves, New Zealand music festivals, travel, vegan kai dogs, our [00:06:30] ocean and the power of human imagination. Sitting next to Laura is and Rahman and Drum is project leader for the inclusive collective, an organisation working towards a cross community approach to increasing belonging and inclusion for all New Zealanders. We do this by developing what we as an organisation, do this by developing a strategy and implementing [00:07:00] it via the Constellation model. These are work hubs which bring various communities and organisations together to work on a common goal which is basically what really sums up what tonight is about. Um, next we have Tanya, Tanya, So me did I pronounce it OK? Tanya is born and bred and currently working as a director of Just speak a youth power movement for transformative change in criminal justice [00:07:30] towards a fair and fair, just and compassionate. And wouldn't we all like that? And last, but by no means least, Sam Kate Sam Kate is a member of Treaty Action Collective, a predominantly group running community. Workshops to explore and engage with the history of the workshops are a step to support and and partnership in their daily lives. To acknowledge coloniser history and actively address racism, [00:08:00] participants of all backgrounds in history are welcomed. Sam Kate is an intersectional activist passionate about interweaving communities and support supporting sustainable well-being and that, um, that last bit there, um, interweaving communities again. It's about what tonight's tonight's all about, because you can't. There's no way we're gonna One person's gonna end racism. We're not gonna solve it individually. We have to work together. We have to work across boundaries. We have to work intersection [00:08:30] and yeah, so that's what we're here for tonight to start that conversation. And also, I think I might be right in saying we've tonight. We are putting the politics back into pride, and I think we're the only ones that are doing that. For those of you who know me, you'll know my history of activism and politics. So, yeah, I'm quite proud to be doing this tonight. I'm proud to be doing it with Beck and Sandra in the support of my beautiful wife Linda. [00:09:00] Alright. So would one of you folks lovely folks like to kick us off and start with what you're doing and where you're doing it and how you're doing it and not so OK, click on the card. So feeling guilty to OK, fine. I'll start. [00:09:30] Um I'd like to begin by acknowledging, uh, their history, their struggles and their aspirations. And, um, I'll share a which a friend of mine, um, told me, which is an excuse. My pronunciation, uh, which means let us join together and not fall apart. Um, I kind of wanted to begin by, um with a memory that I have And you need to tell [00:10:00] me when to stop talking, because I talk a lot. Um, but, um and this is a memory I share with. And it was after the Orlando shootings, which was, um, it was quite a gutting. Um, experience, obviously for, um, the pride community here and at, um, which is the Anglican action site. Um, the gay community decided to do a vigil in an event, and I found out about that. And I said [00:10:30] to be, Well, I need to go. Um, and so I went with her, and in a sense, it was possibly one of the scariest things I'd done because I was walking into a space where there was a lot of grief and a lot of anger, and I held within myself a sense of responsibility or a sense of, you know, I'm so sorry that this came from our community and caused grief to you. Um, and I knew that there would be expressions [00:11:00] of anger which they were, and rightfully so, like, you know, But it was just a matter of how am I going to deal with that? And how I dealt with that was saying You better sit straight right next to me. Do not leave my side. Um, but But I did that and I I'm really glad I am really, really glad that I went and that I had the opportunity to express solidarity and to express or to share grief with the community. Um, so [00:11:30] that is a sad thing. But it was also, you know, one of the most powerful experiences that I've had, and it sits with me, and I'm, um Yeah, I'm glad that is part of my memory. Um, so we you know, we're coming into the anniversary of another tragedy. Um, from, uh, you know, the Christchurch Mosque attacks, and it is really, You know, the project that I'm doing now, the inclusive a collective, [00:12:00] um, started after that attack. I don't know if any of you have seen the, um, video on Radio New Zealand that went up this morning. Um, but if you did, then you will know that we had been talking to government for quite some years and asking them to do a national strategy. And we had said two things. First of all, like we said, we've got all these issues that our women in our community are facing, and really, [00:12:30] you need to take a strategic approach to deal with it all, and we gave them some solutions. So for each thing that we raised each issue we raised, we said, Here's what needs to happen in this space And we said, If you get these solutions right, they won't just benefit our community. They will benefit all communities that are suffering from some similar issues, like you might have to modify them a little bit, but to to be suitable for that community. But generally [00:13:00] you get it right, and you you can transfer it across. Um, but government was government and we weren't important enough. And we did have no power in that structure. And so it never happened. Um, yeah, I'll not dwell on that. But after the after the attacks, um, I've been I did a course through the Leadership New Zealand Trust, and that was in 2017. So they did a healing session around the Christchurch attacks [00:13:30] via Zoom. So I attended that, and that's where I got connected to these two wonderful women that work at Foundation North. And I was talking to them. I was in a very bad space in April last year, uh, worn down lack of sleep lack of faith in anything. Lack of hope. Um, even after the attacks, I felt like there was no movement. Nobody was listening. And so I was just sitting there, pouring my soul out, and one of them I talked to her afterwards, [00:14:00] and she said to me, What would it look like if you did a strategy outside of government? And it was just one of those Excuse me, jaw drop moments. And I was like, Oh, wow, yes, yes, that would look good. I would love to do that. Um, and then they shared with me this thing called the Constellation Model, which is a way, um, to bring communities together around a single goal. And, um, one of the examples that had originated in Canada and they used it in the health sphere. [00:14:30] Um, but we subsequently heard about a US example where, um, a town in Oregon has used it around reducing teenage pregnancies and managed to get the anti abortionists and the pro-choice, um, in the same room together to work on this common goal because it was something that they all agreed on, and they were actually quite successful. So that looked fabulous as Well, so I started this week in June last year, I had some lovely discussions [00:15:00] with Laura. Um, that didn't end up where we wanted to, but it was just so useful to help clarify our thinking. And and she's been wonderful in terms of supporting us as as have so many people across the country. Like, I just couldn't believe we've got amazing coms team who, um, just volunteered their time to do a strategy for us. Um, the University of Waikato, who are funding, um, six literature reviews for us to go and look back at the last five years worth [00:15:30] of consultations with six different communities. And what we've currently been doing is, um, travelling around the country. We plan to hit, um, 60 towns and cities across New Zealand, and we're just getting small groups of people together and having very informal conversations around belonging and basically So we're taking three questions to a country which is when do you feel like you belong in a New Zealand? What is stopping you from [00:16:00] feeling like you belong and what needs to change in order for you to belong and we keep them deliberately. Sim simple and accessible, but they are very weighty questions and people talk and talk. And, um, we've just had, you know, amazing conversations. And, you know, we have these images of ourselves, and I think, you know, I think I'm more clued up than the average person. I think I engage with a lot of communities I. I read about stuff. I try and follow [00:16:30] diverse people on Twitter. But what I've been hearing is just like, fuck, I don't know anything. Do you not know so much about how people live and the things that they have to deal with? Um and so we will have all of these conversations. We will have three major. So we got Auckland. Wellington. Christchurch. Um, we're heading Wellington on the 13th of June. Um, Christchurch is on 28th of March, and then August will be [00:17:00] Auckland. Um, so that will be another way to engage. We've got a online space for you to engage with our questions. Um, and we've got you can type in your answers, or you can hit the button and speak your answers to try and improve accessibility for people with disabilities or literacy or English as a second language, whatever. So we're doing our best one to be access and second, to reach as many people as we can, Um, [00:17:30] with a view to once we have all the data, we have this fabulous data analyst in Christchurch and she's going to write a comprehensive report and we will develop a strategy out of that is very much a community facing strategy. So we are quite clear around our boundaries. We are talking to civil society. This is not a government facing project. We are not talking to government in terms of the data. Um, we think they should do their own strategy and their own work. And we don't [00:18:00] think the philanthropic sector should fund what government should be doing. So we've just been very clear We're not doing that. Um, And then once we have the strategy, we'll pull out three strands and try and develop these work hubs around them, and I can't say what they will be yet because it will depend on what the majority of people in New Zealand are saying. Needs to change. Um, but what my hope is in terms of what that would look like is that we'd look at who's already working on that thing [00:18:30] and bring them together and then try and bring people from across communities together to work on that common goal. And the underlying aim is one to change the competitive environment the NGO S currently work in where there's a lack of sharing of information and resources and, you know, we just put into the structure that forces us to be that way. And so this is a way to attempt to change that. Secondly, it's a community empowerment model because it's about [00:19:00] saying that community should lead directions. The community should be in charge of what happens to us, and it is our lived experience that should lead whatever is done and where the resources are put and how things work. Um, so it's kind of a, you know, sneaky way of, of creating a social movement for change, um, and putting us in a position where, when we're together, that government [00:19:30] actually can't ignore us and changing that power differential between government and community because I think that very strongly needs to be changed. Which is not to say I know there are lovely people in government and they're well meaning and they're genuine. But some of them aren't. And certainly the structures are not. They really aren't. And so these people, even if they wanted to do things differently or better, um, they just really hampered, uh, in doing so. So that's that's my picture. [00:20:00] All right, who would like to go next? I can go next. Um, everyone. My name is Laura. Um, I want to start out by acknowledging the work of Jeannette Fitzsimmons just because that's been really present with me. And I'm sure it's been present with a lot of you as well. Um uh, I first met her when I went to a young greens camp when I was first becoming a politicised young person. And, um and, uh, [00:20:30] I think, like a lot of people, she, um, provided incredible advice. Got me thinking about things in a way that I'd never thought about them before, Um, and helped along with many other people throughout my journey to push me into the direction that I am today. So and, um, at this time, um, yeah. So I'm the director of Action station, um, action station. Um, who's heard of action station? You're probably on our mailing list yet That's why I love being in Wellington. Because I used to live in Auckland and I'd be like, Who's heard [00:21:00] of action station? Like a third of the room. And I was like, I come to Wellington. Everyone's like, Yes. Um, so, yeah, action station is a multi issue, um, camp community powered campaigning organisation. Um, fundamentally, it's about using, uh, digital tools. Um, it's combining digital tools and community organising and, um, engaging people across their shared values and visions and hopes and frustrations. Um, to come together to, uh, take coordinated action. So hopefully [00:21:30] in that, uh, change, um, across a wide variety of. And I guess, um, and to like to speak to the we're here today to talk about, which is racism. Um, in 2017, uh, we read a report called, which is the product of 250. Um, that Moana Jackson and Professor Margaret Mutu. Um ran all around the country where they engaged thousands of maori, [00:22:00] uh, to talk about what, um, Maori wanted 2040 to be like, um, because that will be 200 years since was first site. And what came out of those who was a vision that by 2040 we will have, um constitutional transformation is the term that he uses, Um, which essentially means that we will live into, uh, the promise of which is, um that's people here by guarantee or virtue of the treaty and people of this land, uh, share [00:22:30] power and responsibility and care for, uh, share, power and responsibility for the care of this land and all of the people in it. Which, of course, is not currently the way things operate at the moment that power very much sits with the crown. Um, and not with, as was first intended. And one of the calls to action to organisations that primarily work with was Please go and do your own visioning process. Uh, and so we action station. At that time, I think we had a mailing list of about 100 and 50,000 people, and [00:23:00] it was like 80 90%. And so we took up that call and we said, OK, we've had this very clear call from a Maori, the Maori world to say please go into a visioning process of what you think the the country should be like in 2040. So that's what we did. And so we ran this process, called, uh, where we had 500 people all around the country. Very incredibly brave people who, um, signed up to host, uh, people in their homes or in cafes. There was one that happened at a McDonald's in Gisborne. Um, [00:23:30] there were, like, community hall events that happened in Christchurch. A few happened in south Auckland, Um, where basically people would come together to discuss three big questions to talk about Where do we want the country to be in 2040. And, um, they had, uh what happened is that every single participant was sent a survey after they, um, participated in that dinner to tell us what their vision is of 2040. And from that, we pulled out a bunch of vision statements and the values that people mentioned most often because whatever vision, um, whatever we [00:24:00] are doing to create our vision, it needs to be based on a set of values. And so, um, uh, the values that came up most often, um, were, uh, very similar to the values that came up most often in the process. Uh, they were which is, um, sort of this idea of uplifting other people's mana. Um, it's, uh, the idea of generous hospitality, um, without any without any expectation of anything in return. Uh, which probably everyone has heard of. It's often used [00:24:30] about. It's used to describe how we, um, look after nature, but it's also about how we look after all that we treasure, Um, including our Children and our young people and our babies. Um, what are the other ones? Equality and fairness community and belonging. And I'm like there is something quite important in this one in which is actually breath of God. Um, and uh is often described as love without discrimination. Um, when we sort of try and translate it into English. But it's difficult to translate Maori [00:25:00] concepts into English because there's not actually direct translations of some of these things. And sometimes it's about how you feel as opposed to what the words say, Um, which is certainly the case, I think with, uh and so we got these wonderful answers from people and we, um, had the set of values. We sent that out. A survey. Around 10,000 people from the action station community then responded to that survey. And from that we developed our vision for what we where we want to be in 2040. And that vision articulated that, um, at least [00:25:30] the group of, uh, mostly that we had engaged also would like to see constitutional transformation in 2040. And so that more or less, um, more or less has defined my work for the next, um, 20 years, but also the mission of action station. And so some ways that we actually try and work towards that reality. Um, I'm gonna give a couple of different examples. One is that we support Maori lead change. So over the last couple of years, um, we got, uh, we [00:26:00] supported the campaign around, um, with very practical support. We hosted their fundraising page, and we helped raise $100,000 for them so that they could continue the occupation. And then we would organise everything like, um, whatever they needed. Basically, uh, tents. Uh, what are those things called things to keep them dry and warm essentially because that as you remember that, um, the police raid happened in the middle of winter. And so that was they were cold, and it was wet. And, [00:26:30] um, in order to maintain the occupation as long as they have and it continues today, um, they needed supplies to be able to do that. Firewood? Um, well, those things braziers. Yeah, a bunch of stuff. But a lot of trips to bunnings, um, to maintain the occupation. We also, uh, got behind the hands of our tamariki network, which is a Maori led network, um, of Maori lawyers, social workers, researchers, midwives who, um, helped place [00:27:00] actually, the documentary with newsroom. Probably everyone saw it or heard about it. At least, which was the, um, video of, uh, CFS workers attempting to, um, uplift a uplift on it. Take forcefully, take a child. A baby, Um, from the maternity ward, hours after birth from a Maori mom. And so that video got 500,000 views. Um, we launched an open letter because we knew that documentary was coming out [00:27:30] because we were working with the people who had helped place that documentary. The open letter was calling for, um a a complete reorientation of the way that we treat care and protection in a so that it is no centred And the reason I say centred is because there's a lot of, um, talk about child centred at the moment. Um, and actually, when things are child centred, um, that's a That's a Western perspective. That's not an indigenous perspective. Centred means [00:28:00] that it doesn't mean you leave the Children or the babies in unsafe, unsafe situations. It means you identify what is it that that needs in order to be safe for that baby and that child, Um and then you work to make that happen, and you do that over the long term. So we worked with, um, the hands of our TAMARIKI network to, um to advocate for the changes that they wanted to see. So those are a couple of examples of how we support Maori change. But we also do work to organise non Maori to take effective action as treaty partners. [00:28:30] Um and so one of the ways that we've been doing that over the last two years, which is a sort of ongoing experiment for us is a project called, um and so is a response to online racism and online hate. We've done some research that found that, um, one in three Maori experience online hate or abuse compared to one in nine of one in nine. I actually think one in nine is still really high. Um and so, um, our ultimate goal is just to get rid [00:29:00] of hate, right? And, um, and the the the issue with obviously online hate is that it gives people who are expressing their hate the ability to spread it across time and space and often without any kind of transparency. Uh, and so is essentially a project where we train up non Maori, um, over a 10 week period to, um have to try and facilitate kind of more informed dialogue about Maori land, language and culture. Um, and they do that in a way where they're [00:29:30] they're taught first to listen because, um, a lot of the time where the hate is coming from is from a place of hurt isolation, uh, systemic oppression or being let down themselves or just not being What's the word to Is that the word settled to and yourself, um and, uh and so you first actually need to listen, But we our theory was that, um, Maori shouldn't have to listen to that. [00:30:00] People who aren't directly impacted by the hate that they spread. Should have to listen to that and help them overcome that. And so, um, but also, we recognise that even if you're not directly targeted by that hate, it's still really awful to engage in and so to to talk is about providing a community of in which you can do that, Um, so that you can talk about those feelings of what it's like to be a per, uh, mostly is in in our groups, a person working on anti-racism stuff because it is hard. Um, and you need places to share those feelings. And I feel like [00:30:30] Maori have those places, and I'm not sure have them quite as much. Um, yeah. And so those are some examples of how we try to work towards constitutional transformation, and I think I'll leave it there. Thank you. Um, my name is Tanya. I am, um I'm the director of Just speak, Um, and yeah, so and I'm, um I was born here in in [00:31:00] Wellington. Um, a rare person, I think, who was actually born and remains in Wellington. We seem to be a highly migratory people. Um, but, um Yeah, so very feel very lucky to continue to call, um, my home. And, um so I'll I'll talk to you a little bit about, um, just speaking the work that we do and how that connects to the the of why we are here today. Um, so just because an organisation focused, uh, on transforming our criminal justice system, [00:31:30] um, towards, uh, fair safety. And there's a lot of different words. It was, like fair, safe, compassionate. Just, um, and all of those things I think obviously connect to to the the cause. Um, to the vision that we have for a, um so just speak. Um, the the of the organisation is is, um, through, uh, Kim Workman Who, um, many. Has anyone here heard of Kim Workman? Yeah. Great. Yeah. So incredible in this, um, in this [00:32:00] area and in many, you know, he's he's touched lives of lots of different people with, um, all the work that he's done inside and outside the tent. And, um, he started an organisation called Re Thinking Crime and punishment, which basically wanted to be the antisense sentencing trust. Um, a very worthy, worthy cause, uh, very necessary at the time, Um and, you know, wanted to bring the experience that he had as as a Maori man, but also, um, a person who worked in spaces, worked in the justice system, but also outside of it. And bring what he [00:32:30] saw as the the fundamental failures of that system, particularly for Maori. But but really for everyone, um, into the kind of civil society world. Um, And then, uh, about eight years ago, he put up a cool, um, to young people. They said I look around the table and there are too many old folk. We need some young people in this course and, um, thinking that I would show up and then I think, like, 50 people showed up to his office the following week. Um, and that's how was born so And then we were initially kind of the the youth [00:33:00] wing. Um and then, as youth tend to do, we revolted. Um, I say we I was not there at the time, but I still I really connect with the story. Um and, um, kind of became the the like, the primary vehicle of the work that, um, that Kim has set out to do um, so, yeah, there's a few things I think that can really connect with. Obviously, um, the work of criminal justice, transformation and the reason why we're all in this room today. Um, and obviously, the the biggest one is that, um, our colonial justice system [00:33:30] primarily incarcerates disproportionately incarcerates maori. Um, and that reflects both the inherent racism and in New Zealand society. Um, the punitive attitudes that we, particularly as I think, carry, um as a legacy of our, um of colonisation and how we came to be here and the attitudes that that, um, you know, our ancestors brought with us, um, in my case from all the way from Poland, but from, you know, from the UK and all all over, um, and and the interaction I think [00:34:00] of of that racism of that punitive. And then a desire to to control and punish, um, people living out side of very strict ideas about what, um, communities look like and how they should behave. Um, so it's quite a big offer. Um, we talk about criminal justice, but it really connects to all these other things about, um what is you know what is acceptable behaviour how we deal with harm. Um, you know what belonging looks like in in many complicated ways, what our obligations are to each other, um, to help each other when [00:34:30] we're struggling, Um, Or when things do go wrong. Um, so you know it It can be quite overwhelming as Laura and I share an office. So we talk about these, um, the connectedness of all of the things that we work on, Um, quite a lot, Uh, for just speak. Obviously we you know, we're primarily focused on what can we do now to change our justice system? So that it that we we reckon with the fact that, um it is inherently racist when we look at the hyper incarceration of Maori men and women, which is the thing that has, [00:35:00] um, most obviously changed in the last three decades. Um, and And what our obligations are, as in particular, um, to work on that change. So that's kind of been the focus of our work. Um, for the last couple of years and, um, a framing that I've started using for it to help kind of people make sense of it. Um, And to help my myself make sense of it is, um, weaponizing, uh, respectability, politics. Um, and some people [00:35:30] are like, you say that to them. They're like, fuck like like, weapon. What is respectability, anyway? Um, but I find it really useful because I think it it It kind of captures the sense of, um, as an organisation where that has often been, um, staffed by and, um, supported by the volunteer work of predominantly, but not not definitely not solely, um, and and people working in the law and with policy, you know, with higher educate higher degrees. Um, that gives us a certain access to spaces where people need to be challenged [00:36:00] about, um, their attitudes, You know, their their racism and their participation in racist systems, whatever their personal beliefs, Um, and to kind of get, you know, to, like, get into the difficult, um, kind of connections between those things. Um, So how we do that is always changing. Um, but over the last three years, we had a few key projects that I can talk to you a little bit about that kind of connect with this, um, these, you know, having these difficult conversations illuminating the connections [00:36:30] between our colonial, um, history and the current status of our justice system and push pushing people wherever we can in the spaces that we have access to, um, to get them to think about how this cause very much affects all of us. Um, as much as it obviously disproportionately affects a Maori, Um, the first thing that we that we did, which was about three or four years ago, was Holder who we called, which was really about, um, creating space for Maori voices to talk about, um, Maori led solutions to [00:37:00] the, um this this question of mass incarceration. Um and, uh, it was it was this was actually before my time, but it still continues to really impact. Um, I think how we work because it was a, um a a forum that I don't think had existed for, um, really, before that specifically talking about, um, justice, the justice system, Um, all the different ways in which it was failing, um, Maori in particular, all the different ways in which it was, um, completely [00:37:30] neglecting the the obligations that the go that the crown has, but also that communities have under, um and the ways that we needed to empower the voices of people most affected by it to to set us on a pathway for how we might change it. Um, so that that was really an opportunity, I think, to try to demonstrate. And people from government were invited. Um, they were not invited to speak. And I think that's something I was recently at a in, um, where that um, kind of similar approach was taken, [00:38:00] um, where people from the community, um, were given the space to to talk. And people from the government were invited to sit down. Shut up and listen. Um, and I I'm really glad to see that kind of as an approach, um, continue to to spread, because I think, um, yeah, there's a There's a lot that, um, that we have, you know, we as and then I think particularly the crown has has done a lot of harm by continuing to believe that they hold the keys, Um, to how we solve this problem. Um, the second major project that, um, that we worked on, um, [00:38:30] that kind of tries to get to this sort of tries to provide openings. Um, for this conversation about the inter complex relationship between racism and the justice system. Um, was one that actually hit the the airways, if you will last week, which I don't know if anyone would have seen it. Um, some of you might have, but we released some research. Um, that was about 2. 5 years in the making. Using the statistics NZ ID I database. Does anyone else know what the ID I is it [00:39:00] come and look at, um, data within stats. New Zealand. They have to go through a process, but it means that they can actually look at personal information. And there is some people are concerned that that information could actually be referred to outside. So, um, I'm happy to talk, but, you know, I'll hand you back to thank you. Thank you. Um, yeah, I won't get into the full ethics of the ID I right now. Um, but it's a very valuable a very valid point and one that's that was [00:39:30] very present for us and really, what we were trying to do, um, is use some of the data and the approaches to knowledge building and knowledge making that have mostly been the, um terrain, you know, or have mostly been the train of researchers, I think, which is basically using that hard data and looking at a statistical analysis of the way that, um of the representation of groups within our justice system. Um, and it was a very long time in the making. Um, statistical [00:40:00] is not my strength. Uh, mercifully, we worked with someone who who had a background in that and really, what we were trying to do is to say, for those people who, you know, maybe they're aware of some of the, um some of the research done by people like Moana Jackson and Margaret Ma. Maybe they are. They've they've seen the stats and, you know, they've heard maybe a story or two about what it's like to be targeted by the police as a young Maori man, but they just need a little more of that information of the kind that they recognise and the kind that they value. Frankly, um, So [00:40:30] what we wanted to do was to illustrate a little bit more about how how profoundly and demonstrably racist our justice system is specifically starting with policing. Um, and we looked at what the likelihood was of a pakeha person with no criminal justice backgrounds. So no police record and they went to prison. What's the likelihood that they're gonna get stopped by police? And what's the likelihood that they're gonna get charged in court and then compare that to a Maori person who similarly has no record? Um, and hopefully some of you saw this [00:41:00] anyway. But basically what we found is, um is that is that that discrepancy that we see in our prison system starts in policing, and it is not surprising. I really want it. This is not we didn't come up with this knowledge, you know, this is very much, um well understood, particularly by maori, um, but really by anyone who'd been paying attention. But I think what we were trying to do here was to provide an additional piece of information that was much harder to ignore for those of us who, um, who really participate in respectability, politics and the value of certain kinds [00:41:30] of information. Um, And then the third thing, the third project that we've been working on over the last couple of years, you know, on this was, um, a project called which was really about storytelling, and it was trying to demonstrate, um, it it was using the power of storytelling and values led storytelling to show, um, show people the the collateral consequences of incarceration, Uh, particularly for Maori. And so we wanted to illustrate, um, you know that everyone who has [00:42:00] been who has gone to prison or has had a family member to prison, who's been convicted in the court that they are human beings with complex histories, with needs, with desires, Um, and with value, um, and and to really kind of start to, um, chip away this idea that when you put someone behind bars that you kind of put that problem away, Um, that particularly for, um for the that that is something that will reverberate throughout generations. Um, and we see that obviously, with how, um with with all the statistical [00:42:30] stuff that we know about how a child or a parent in prison is 8 to 10 times more likely to end up in prison themselves. And we That's a fact that I can recite horribly easily. But telling the story of someone whose, um, parent has been in prison or who, uh, someone who is in prison themselves? Um, who has kids? Um, I think obviously does that far better than any number could. Um yeah. So that was a project that was a really long time in the making. Obviously, a lot of complexity with dealing with some of the most, um, traumatic experiences [00:43:00] of people's lives. Um, but what we worked on was a a multimedia exhibition that we exhibited in physical spaces and online around the country over the last year and a half, Um, launching a wellington, but then ultimately going all the way up and down the the north and South Island, and it remains online on our website if anyone who is interested in looking at it Um, yeah, so I think those that's kind of, I guess, a little pot of history of of some of the stuff that we've done here. And I think we were trying to go to now, you know, where it specifically relates to the [00:43:30] of of tackling racism and our our obligations there and the discomfort that we often feel there is, um, two projects. One is, um uh, actually very similar is inspired by, um, which is about hosting spaces similar to this one, actually, where people are encouraged to, um, lead kind of lightly facilitated conversations Talking about, um, the attitudes that underpin the punitive that we see reflected in our justice system. Um, school justice is served. [00:44:00] Um, so the idea is that we get together and, like, kind of call me, but I kind of like it, um, people get together, um, around some kai and talk about and are prompted with a few key questions to start unpacking some of those attitudes that we know. Um, underpin why we're so happy to throw a lot of people, particularly Maori behind, um uh, behind prison doors and lock the key and throw it away. Um, and that the again, some of those why those punitive attitudes particularly affect communities of colour [00:44:30] and, um, and also how they ultimately end up screwing all of us. Um, so that's a project that is launching in April. Um, and that is definitely something that anyone in this room can get involved in by, um, by hosting one of these dinners. Um, it's something that we it's very much a, uh, small scale conversations for long term change kind of project. Um, but those are really necessary. Um, you know, alongside the work that we're doing with action station and others towards the election, which is obviously a much more, um, pressing [00:45:00] issue. Have I talked for a really long time? Yeah, OK, I'll stop it, then. Thank you. Um um Oh, just being fourth means that I'm, like, bubbled up with inspiration and have no idea what I was gonna say anymore. Um, um, so I think just to start, it's it's such a privilege [00:45:30] to be here. Um, and I'm I'm very grateful, uh, for the the kind of, um, the community feeling of it, um, in a very personal way because, um, so I have a chronic illness which sometimes means everything is fine, And I can travel along in my happy little life, and everything looks great. And other times it gets really difficult and complicated, and, um, things get really hard to [00:46:00] do. Uh, so, actually, I had a bit of a meltdown earlier this afternoon about whether or not I would make it tonight. Um and so I'm very grateful to have made it, um, and to be kind of surrounded by, um, a group of people who, it feels like are gonna be very forgiving of, you know, whatever my brain lets me do. Um, and and hopefully, uh, that will alleviate a lot of stress, which makes it worse. [00:46:30] Um, so, um yeah, it's just such a privilege to be here and to be, um, sharing, uh, kind of some of my own understandings and experiences around so many of the things that have been mentioned. You know, we're talking about belonging and community and, um, and kind of storytelling and all of that. And I have things to speak to of all of those things, Um [00:47:00] and yeah. So I I'm here kind of representing, um, treaty action collective. Um, whereas a relatively newly formed group, um, as mentioned it predominantly, but not exclusively. Um, and our kind of what what we are hoping to do is engage at [00:47:30] a community level with people and, um, kind of inspire curiosity and humility that then results in anti-racism action. Um, so we host workshops, uh, on, um and, uh, they they can be either kind of open community workshops. Tell your friends, tell your families. Come along. Um, or more specific. [00:48:00] Um uh, we can work with organisations to kind of host workshops for their particular groups. Um and, um, storytelling and belonging really kind of feed into this so strongly. Um, So I, uh, I to Taranaki and, [00:48:30] um, and also Scotland and Germany. And, uh, I grew up in Christchurch. Um, which some of you may know is is, um, quite a lot more conservative and visibly white than Wellington, for example. Um and so, um, for me something that I [00:49:00] found really powerful, um, in moving to instead, um, and having an opportunity, actually, through the the Maori mental health system to really engage with, um, my own sense of and belonging, Um, And to kind of alongside that, be working in these communities of people who are talking about anti-racism [00:49:30] and, um other All of the other political actions that are happening, um I I feel very passionately about too many of them to list. Um and so that really fed. Um, I think into into my experience of meeting with lots of different people from different backgrounds, hearing their stories, um, and really seeing the value in in how connecting and storytelling [00:50:00] is. How we make change as we're saying, like, small conversations, long term goals. Um and yeah. So one of the things that I really found kind of, um really were brought home to me in the last two, treaty education workshops that I was, um, helping facilitate, um was just this, [00:50:30] uh, the sense that we're working with two really, really different world views when we talk about, um, we we have, um with all of its great depth of, um, and history and relationships and narratives. And then we have the Eurocentric with its equally deep set of and narratives and relationships and history. Um, [00:51:00] and the two very rarely line up. Um, And so if we look at at our, um, uh, our history of colonisation that has has built the New Zealand that we currently know, um, we can see right from the beginning that the two world views were were kind of clashing against each other, and and the only people who were being heard were the ones who were willing [00:51:30] to yell louder. Um, and that in itself was a product of the worldview that brought them there. Um and so one of the things that I feel really excited about with, um, with hosting these workshops is offering an alternative to, uh to the narratives that a lot of us got in high school. Um, I certainly came away from from, um, lessons on the Treaty [00:52:00] of Waitangi in high school with just enough knowledge to hide the gap and not enough to actually have any idea what happened or why or who. Um and and so being able to offer the kind of the alternative, um, of of reality, um, and and doing so with storytelling. So, um, kind of starting with, you know, what is [00:52:30] what is, um, a timeline? Let's let's build a timeline of, um, you know, we start with and and and we build down and we have all of these events that kind of occurred through, um through through various explorers arriving and and all of that, And, um, one of the first things people notice is that up until this moment, timelines have always started at 18. 40. Um, that there's there's never been anything before. Then, um, and the second [00:53:00] thing that we notice is that the timeline itself is an extremely western set up. Um, it doesn't really make a lot of sense, and that's why it's so. It's such kind of a fun challenge trying to place some of the the prior points on this timeline. Um, and I find watching people's kind of the the light bulbs, um, as it suddenly occurs to them that it's only just occurred to them that [00:53:30] the Western Pakeha world view that has always been taken for granted is by no means the only one. that there are so many world views and we have this great privilege of living in a country where it's not even two world views we're looking at. We have such a huge, beautiful diversity. And the, um, the importance of being able to see each other will then allow us to hopefully [00:54:00] get into some of this anti racist work. Um, yeah. So, um, one of the things that I also found, uh or feel is really intrinsic as this, um, the question of belonging. Um, where, uh, we we had a, uh a while ago before we were renamed as the action collective. Um, and one of the things that seemed to really come out of that for me was the idea [00:54:30] the idea that, um if we, um um that a sense of belonging is really, um, anchoring and and excuse me, gives that, though, that that you're talking about, um, and what I witnessed repeatedly through, um, through conversations with lots of different [00:55:00] people. Is that especially the the kind of New Zealand identity? Um, I see an awful lot of people who identify as New Zealand and have a deep sense of rootlessness. Um, that there's there's no sense of kind of a, um a solid place to stand and come from. And so that, uh, in turn creates [00:55:30] kind of a sense of, um, of kind of striving and and coveting and, um, and kind of the benevolent racism realm. You see, people who are really enthusiastic about, um, uh, Maori culture, they love everything about it, and they they desperately wish that they can claim it. And, um, hopefully for a lot of these people, they're not trying to claim it. But there's that real longing and sense of, um of missing [00:56:00] out on something. Uh, and a conversation I had quite recently, uh, someone brought up the idea that colonisation and its ongoing effectiveness, which is what we see in modern day. It really relies on, um, on, uh, cutting yourself off from the idea that you belong anywhere else. Because if you belong somewhere else, then maybe you don't belong here. And if you don't belong here, then maybe [00:56:30] your whole coloniser system is desperately more fragile than you want it to be. Um and so what? I really want to, um, and and the rest of the, um the group, one of the things we really hope can come out of, um, attending these, um, treaty education workshops is starting to get a sense of of who we are in the place we're in, um, in kind of a, [00:57:00] um, the beginning of of a belief that you have a birthright and an entitlement to your own history, Um, to your own ancestors And, um, that through kind of strengthening, uh, strengthening that within pakeha. We're enabling them to take space where it is there and then allow space for everyone else. Um, yeah, I think [00:57:30] that's, um Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Ok, um, so the next question I'm gonna put to you all, um we're really keen to hear about, um, things the discrimination marginalisation have in common here and how that can be made clear to the to the room. So how does what you all do in your daily lives [00:58:00] interact or intersect with the people here today? So I guess that I hate using the term Queer Communities because, you know, we're not, but, you know, let's just for tonight pretend we're all homogenous, OK? But we know very well that we're not, um, so yeah, So how would what you are all doing? I mean, if you don't, if you can't answer that, that's fine. But let's just try and have that so we can start to open up the conversation. I can go because I've got [00:58:30] it ready. I think, Um uh, So, um, one of the So I didn't articulate this clearly, but I think, um, and a barrier right now to, um, us achieving constitutional transformation is that, um, we still live in a colonial system that requires decolonization. And so a lot of action stations work now is about how can we decolonize various aspects of our society so that space can be made for others to re indigenous [00:59:00] those spaces. So we're very clear that we play the role of decolonization and not the re indigenization. We I'm a Maori person. Um, I have, um but I So I'm the director of an organisation, but I'm clear that we are operating, um, in what is called the sphere, um, which is the area of holding government to account. And then there's the which is the area of decision making sovereignty, et cetera, et cetera. And whilst I have have the privilege of being able to [00:59:30] go back and forth between those worlds because of, um, the nature of being who I am and because, um, the nature of the work that I do, um action stations role is to work in the and so part of decolonizing. Um, as it relates to the queer community, is decolonizing our construct of, um, gender. Um, And and so, um, in in, um, in Sorry, there is No, there are no gender pronouns. Um, [01:00:00] we this it's ear which in common vernacular has been turned into our So when people say it's up, that used to be back in the day. Um, I a And so, um, we didn't have those distinctions between gender pronouns, price colonisation. But that's not to say that we didn't have roles, um, within society for, um, recognising the strengths and the, I guess, the the offerings on a kind of spiritual [01:00:30] level of and and everyone in between. And so it's different. It's a completely different construct of gender to what we currently have. And so, um, the way that that plays out in action stations work is that, um, we have done a couple of different things over the last couple of years. One is that, um when a very small group of anti anti trans organisers, [01:01:00] um, were putting up stickers all around Wellington saying Shit things. Um, we crowd funded street posters to basic that just to show our love to our trans to say, um are are beautiful. Um, the artwork was done by who was It was gender. Minorities sponsored the artwork and then we crowd, we crowd funded. Some of you may have given to her $5000 Which phantom posters then, um, gave it to us at cost price. So we were able to put up something like 100 [01:01:30] and 40 posters, giant posters all around the country, um, to show our love. Um, when, uh, when we made a press, um, we made a What's it called the media Council, The People Press Council. When Rachel Stewart, who's a prominent anti Trans columnist, was a prominent anti Trans columnist was sharing awful lies, Um, on the New Zealand Herald about trans folk, Um, we [01:02:00] put in a complaint, and that complaint was not upheld. But New Zealand Herald offered us the ability to have a rebuttal. And so we used that opportunity to gather the perspectives of, um, 20 trans and non-binary folk. And we collated that together in a piece that we got published in the New Zealand Herald. Because a lot of the time the work of, um or like the work of anti racism or anti transphobia or anti homophobia is [01:02:30] about passing the mic to the communities that are the best place to speak about those things and so similar to the weaponizing respectability politics. We had an end with the New Zealand Herald, and the best thing that we could do at that time was to pass the mic and some of the people in that talked about, um, Pacific and Maori ideas of gender and sexuality and how they're a lot different to what they are today. You can enter that. Um, yeah. So So, um, picking [01:03:00] up that idea that the Maori, um, uh I guess just holds a lot more space for the diversity that really just exists. Um, within, uh, within our queer communities. Um, there's a a story that I'd like to share. Um, that some of you may be familiar with the, um, the story of and, um, it's kind of it's generally touted as the the absolute most [01:03:30] romantic heterosexual relationship story. There is, um and so they are. They're kind of, um, the story as it was translated, Um uh, kind of when the the early missionaries were translating some of the, um, the stories that were being told by Maori at the time. Uh, and that is the the current um, sorry. The currently recognised story. Um, [01:04:00] for those of you who are not familiar with it, uh, is basically that, uh, was highborn and tua was not, uh and so they, um their relationship was kind of not encouraged. Um, And so, um, being the strong independent woman that she was, um, decided to swim across lake, um, to, [01:04:30] um in the middle of the night, uh, to reach to and they, um, Consummated their relationship and with Vince forth, forth, allowed to to do whatever they were doing, um and so it's it's very romantic, because, of course, they were both extremely beautiful. Um, and they, um, their their love overcame all social obstacles and the very physical obstacle of the lake. [01:05:00] Um, in the middle of the night, Um, and so, um, only last year or so the year before, I, um, discovered, uh, some writing by, um um, and what she had done was found the original transcript in Maori. And from that she had taken inspiration and and kind of written a different version. Um, [01:05:30] but, uh, the original transcript transcript is the first written record of the term. Um, and at that point, it was meant to indicate, um, a, uh like Ah, sorry. I've lost all my words. Um, basically like a lover of the same sex. Um, and so the the alternative offering from, [01:06:00] uh, is, uh is kind of along the lines of Well, the the servant, uh, who I forgot to mention earlier. Um uh, servant who, um, just went around everywhere with him, was carrying a calabash that he smashed. Um, in order to get attention, Um, he is referred to as, uh so I don't think servant is quite the [01:06:30] right translation there. Um, I could be wrong. Um, but, you know, we kind of we see even just from that single point that the, um the the role of translating our stories was, um, was taken on by the missionaries, and they had their own sets of world view and their own beliefs and their own interpretations. So even, [01:07:00] um, even if it was entirely innocent, they, you know, they saw Oh, these two guys and they spend all their time together. But, you know, one of them is shorter. Who's probably the servant? Um, that, um No. So, um, yeah, we can We can really see that. Um, I think a Maori just has so much space to offer [01:07:30] to the queer community. Um and, um, yeah, that it just we are already welcome in, um, we don't have to do anything for that. Um, and yeah, in in the process of, uh, decolonizing, um uh, ourselves, if we have Maori or indigenous and then of [01:08:00] decolonizing the systems that we're living under. Um, there are so many gifts of space and acceptance that we will find there because colonisation doesn't actually benefit anybody. Um, except in really practical, upsetting ways, Um, but in a in a hard way, are not benefiting from colonisation in their soul or, you know, um, thank you. Can I just add a little thing? [01:08:30] That story was shared last night at the Pride Indigenous Maori music event, where they said that the MP for, um at the time shared that story in parliament in why he was voting in support of marriage with the stories and the the culture of acceptance and Maori having been lost through time. And this is [01:09:00] something that he was proud to, um, you know, represent and and and sort of, you know, say, hey, we we're reclaiming. This is not going against, you know, the Christian thing. This is saying this is who our people are and fair. It's totally fair. Uh, I mean, I think a lot about [01:09:30] the Yeah, the the sort of the particular focus of the work that that we do at just speak. Um, has been articulated really well, by I think Kate and Laura in terms of connecting, um, Maori with a way of understanding how we, um, live in support of people of, um who people want to love, who people are with their identities. And, um, and that respect and understanding and ways of working together that is a different way of so the justice system is a reflection of the way [01:10:00] that we treat people who we don't think matter. Um, and in that respect, it affects everyone. Um, but it also reflects these underlying attitudes that that bleed into how, um, people in the the queer community have been treated and continued to be treated. Um, you know, by the the kind of heterosexual patriarchal systems that are, you know, also part of colonisation as well. Um, so that big, you know, big, big systems level. It's all obviously connected, Um, and at a sort of specific level, when it comes to the the [01:10:30] money that we do at just I think, um, lots of people carry, um, privilege in different spaces. And, um, many of us, um, you know, we're not always aware of that. Um, some of us obviously carry a lot more of it than others, and I would put myself very much in that category. Um, but I think what we have the power to do is to know that the spaces where we do carry privilege or we do have capacity to have difficult conversations, to sit in discomfort and to raise the issues around, um, [01:11:00] those punitive attitudes and that racism that we all that's the water that we swim in. It's there that we breathe, so we can't deny it. Um, where are the opportunities that we have with the access, um, to the spaces that we do that we can raise that and we can make an impact in raising that, Um, for those who are most affected by those deeply punitive, racist and fucked up systems. Um, so that's a really high level answer. Um, on a practical level, you can always volunteer with just, um, and yeah, again. Um, get behind the [01:11:30] upper of weaponizing whatever respectability politics you engage in or don't. Um, but yeah, I think, um, all of our struggles are connected. So at a really high level, I think it's awesome to have people facilitate spaces where we just acknowledge that and talk about what we have the spoons for, um, on any given day, um, beyond our own struggles and their own things that we all face, um, to support others who are also struggling. Hm. I think, um, in terms of of our project, I think [01:12:00] clearly these issues of discrimination belonging, inclusion, exclusion are very much familiar to to the people in this room. And so, um, for this year and definitely until September, as we're collecting information, I would love to, um, have people that would be willing to get a group of people together in a room, anything from 6 to 16 people, and we would come in and just have that conversation. [01:12:30] Um, and we're very conscious when we do these, um these meetings that to ensure that the power in the room sits with the people who are telling us their experiences. Um, and that's why we didn't call them consultations, because it's not a consultation. Um, it is very much a conversation, and it is very much about, you know, being able to authentically [01:13:00] take what you're giving us into and reflect it as best we can in the work that we do. Um, and we are trying to be as transparent as we can with the work and also that we see our work as as all the workers. It's a public good. So when we have our strategy or whatever documents the literature reviews, everything will be online, publicly available. And if anybody wants [01:13:30] to take the strategy and use it to develop their own programmes if they want to use it for funding applications Um, however, you know, policy development, if you happen to be in government or local government and you think it's useful, it is there for you. Um, so So that would be great. Um, it would be really useful, as we do our major to hear from you, especially people that you know [01:14:00] in Christchurch that you think would be really useful to have in the room. Um, because we're trying to We're currently trying to get people to come along to that, and we want to make sure that we have a good mix of people in the room. So we love your contacts in Auckland and Wellington. Um, but also around the country as we're travelling around, um, if there are people that you're connected to, that we could then get [01:14:30] a sense of what it is like to be you in Gisborne, you know, or what is it like in Hamilton, or what's it like in New Plymouth or so on? Um, so we've done kind of. We've been down the west coast of the South Island and we really didn't get to connect with Rainbow Communities there. We couldn't get the contact, we couldn't find them. To be fair, we really struggled also with ethnic minorities there because a lot [01:15:00] of them are migrant workers or and they are afraid to speak. Um, their employers maybe are not as understanding for some of them. And so they didn't want to put that at risk. So even if they weren't migrant as such, but, um, New Zealand citizens So we did talk to some people, definitely. But it it was a struggle. So anything that would help that [01:15:30] process, Um, because we will absolutely anonymize everything that we hear like nothing like, And we try to create an environment where people can speak their truth, um, and share in a way that's safe. So that's why our will be by invitation because we can't afford to have it publicly open. Um, and we will have, um we're hoping to have around one facilitator [01:16:00] per every group of 10 people so that the conversations can be done in a safe way. Um, and then as we move into next year and start developing the constellations if you have any interest like again, we use our newsletters, our website, our social media to say, Hey, these are the three areas that we're looking to work on and if that's of interest to you or you know, organisations that should be invited into that space. Um, and again, it will be by invitation. [01:16:30] Um, because we know that that this stuff is fraught, you know? And there's a lot of places where people might rub up and and so facilitating it Well, to make sure that it works is really important. Um, but yeah, So you can also go to our website, as I said, and fill out our, um, survey. We'd really love that. And if you want to share that, um and I think at some point we're going to [01:17:00] share it through action station as well. So, um but the website is simply inclusive dot NZ So it's really simple and easy to find if you search. So, yeah, we we really would love to engage in ways that you feel comfortable to engage with us. Can I just Sorry, can I add one thing that I forgot to mention earlier, which is the, um it's strange that I forgot it, but, um, about [01:17:30] racism and and pride. So, um, I was involved in hosting the, um, give a little for the Auckland pride. Um, when banks was it banks that first did it? It was banks, wasn't it? They first pulled their funding. Um, because the pride community, um, Maori Maori, within the pride community in Auckland had gone along to the community to say we are not comfortable with police coming to pride in uniform. We're also not [01:18:00] comfortable with the corporatization of pride we would like it to be of by and for the community. Um and so they asked police not to not participate, but just not to do it in their uniforms. Um, and the reason that Maori were upset about police uniforms were for the reasons that, um, just speaks research. That came out last week have shown, um because they had lived experience of that, um, of that racism. And so, um, you know, all of these banks pulled out their money. Then a bunch of other sponsors pulled out their money, and then [01:18:30] the community raised $30,000 to save it. And now, this year, um, pride has had Auckland Pride has had more events than it's ever had before. Um, and more diverse events than it's ever had before. And a wider range of events covering the full, um, the full full coverage of Auckland, which Auckland is, um, is a huge place. It's very spread out, and there are a lot of, um, sort of different communities across Auckland. And this pride had more coverage than any other before because it [01:19:00] was off by and for the community. And they also had 7000 people who joined the march, and none of them had to pay $5000 to get a float to do it. And, um, and I just think that that's awesome. And I think that's very relevant to the conversation today because, um, as some of you may have seen, um, Banks have pulled out of this year's Wellington International Pride Parade. And the history in Wellington is a little bit different because my understanding, anyway, is that, um, Wellington International Pride Parade has been quite separate from the Wellington for quite some time. And they it was sort of trying to cater to [01:19:30] the split within the community of people who love a tank and people who people who don't love a tank. Um and so I think, one of the ways, like, I'm sure people here don't need convincing. Um, that maybe like police don't have to come in the uniforms. They could just come in T shirts. Um, but, um, I think it's about really showing up for, um for people when Maori say it because Maori almost always the one saying it. Um bless you, Tanya. Now, Tanya is often saying it, Um, but, um, [01:20:00] it's about yeah, showing up to say we support, um, the stance that Maori and communities of colour are taking. Um and, um and maybe we Yeah, we don't need a tank in our parade, can I? Which is, um, something that, um uh, Laura has also been leading work on bless you Law which is, um, uh, specifically relating to racism and policing, which is the armed response trial. So the trial of of, um, police [01:20:30] roaming around, um, with massive military weapons, um, ready to respond to and probably inflame an existing, um, uh, situation. And, you know, it's something that that, um, Maori Pacifica communities in particular raised really early on. Um, as a concern for them when when this was first proposed, um, in response to, you know, using the justification of the March 15 attacks, but with very little information as to how those threats or those responses were connected and how they would [01:21:00] actually address racism or keep people safe. Um, and, uh, yes. I think that that's another really practical that is happening right now, Um, that is very urgent. Where there is actually a genuine risk to people's lives. Um, and to their safety, that we can all get behind particularly, um, those of us non in the room and can go to a the voices of a Maori who have said we don't want this. This makes us feel safe. And this, um, compounds the the feelings. Um, you [01:21:30] know that our research eliminated that is very well known already about lack of trust and and belief and, um, knowledge that they're being treated very differently. So just maybe as, like a, um overarching, hopefully hopeful point And how to and just reintegrating how this really does kind of link in with, um, all of them, um, the beautiful thing with, um with intersectionality, [01:22:00] Um, as, um first, uh, worded by Kimberley Crenshaw. Um, black legal scholar and activist. Um, the beautiful thing with intersectionality is that every bit of unpicking we do is unravelling all of it. Um, and so you know, those little conversations with our that's helping we're destabilising the [01:22:30] terror that we're living in with every conversation we have every person we connect with, Um, and every time we we weave in our our activism and we say, Well, I support all the activism that the queer community are doing, and I support all the activism that the, um the Maori community are doing and all of the overlap and all of the activism of the disability community and all of all of the things, every time we engage with it, um, with [01:23:00] one of these communities or causes, we are assisting all of the other communities and causes in in building that momentum and in destabilising the things that are destroying our lives. Um, so that's really cool. We just, like, do a little thing somewhere, and it's it is all rippling out. Um and yeah, Cool. Thank you. OK, so now I'm gonna start, um, offering questions from the floor. But before [01:23:30] we get into that, I just would like to say you may have noticed he's not really that short, and that's not really an extension of his arm. But he's always at these events recording. And it's really great to have this resource within our community. So thank you. First of all for being here tonight, but if you don't want to be recorded, if you want to ask a question, but you don't want to be recorded, please come and see Gareth afterwards and he will edit you out. Kay would like to kick off with a question over the back. Um, apologies. [01:24:00] Kiwi thing. Um, this is not a question. It's It's a comment, um, picking up from the, um Wellington International Pride Festival. Um, in the last two in the last week, a group of young activists, including Maori and others, have said, We're not not only we're not comfortable with the International pride parade, but we want to offer a safe space to other people when that parade is going on. So an event has been organised for Glover Park, [01:24:30] which is just near Cuba mall, between 5 30 and 8 30 at which is the same time as the Pride Festival. It's not a speeches, it's just a hang out. Bring food, music chat. There's a Facebook event or you can get details. And it's, um, a broad sort of grouping of people saying, If you don't want to go to Pride Parade or it freaks you out, the police and all the rest of it there will be people to give support and just chill. Chill out time. Go to the park tomorrow. [01:25:00] Sorry. Yeah, Queer Avengers Page is one of the pages that co-hosted it, but it's also got, um, support from organise A and gender minorities. Um, A and, um, a couple of other sort of, you know, groups. So it's like there's a lot of people behind it, but the people who were talking about it didn't want to be facing social media attacks personally. That's why it's been done by the pages that are a bit more anonymized. Cool. Thank you. OK, open [01:25:30] up again for questions. Anybody have any questions I'd like to put to our panel or further the discussion? Sure. Um, I have a question, which is, um, for everyone, which I guess is taking your question, um, to maybe a more practical level, which is for each of you. What are some things, um, around your that you think we could be doing to further it in queer spaces that we're part of sandwich for, um, [01:26:00] the action collective. Uh, if you are interested in, um, in either, uh, kind of hosting a workshop within your workplace or your volunteer organisation or or anywhere that you happen to frequent, um, you can get in touch with us, and, um, we've got six workshop dates set for this year. Um, some of those are available for claiming, Um and if you would like to, um [01:26:30] to come along to one of our open community workshops. Um, you do we have a sign up? No, Um, you can come and talk to me and and we can organise, um, contact details, Um, and you're welcome to to come along to that on your own or with your entire or with all of your flat family or, you know, bring all your friends. Um, yeah, that's kind of a A really, [01:27:00] um, practical option. Uh, we're hosting these workshops. Please come to them. Thank you. I'll just think about it a little bit more. It's OK. OK, so I do have some of my cards here, but if you go onto our website, um, we've got you can sign up to get our newsletters, um, email newsletters. And also, there's a different thing where you can sign up to volunteer. Um, So if if if this thing isn't [01:27:30] of interest to you, feel free to do that or yeah, take my card. If you're interested in getting us contacts or hosting a conversation or any of the other things, then Yeah, absolutely. Feel free to email me. I'd love to hear from any of you and all of you. Um, so probably the most practical thing that I can think of now right now is that, uh so with we did four versions of this 10 week programme that people [01:28:00] ran through. And that was, um, based on the idea that we would get mostly to challenge online racism towards Maori. And then March 15 happened and we widen that. So it was also challenging racism towards, um, people from Muslim and also refugee backgrounds. Um and we always plan to do that. That just brought the timeline up, um, further. And since then, we've had approaches from organisations who want to run similar ones for people who do [01:28:30] that for trans people. And, um uh, people, uh, who are able body to do that for people with disabilities and, um because because the framework that we've developed or the model that we've developed can translate to other issues. Um, because it's essentially about, um, deepening people who aren't directly impacted by an issue's, um, knowledge on that, giving them effective ways where they can, um, effective, uh, ways where they can have conversa facilitate conversations about [01:29:00] that with people. So that that the education part of the work doesn't have to fall on those people that are that are directly impacted by transphobia or homophobia or racism, et cetera. Um and so what? We've what we're doing over the next sort of 6 to 12 months is we're scaling that up. But we're trying to do that in a way that's quite sustainable. Meaning that what we're doing is like a train that trainers model, um, where we're taking that programme and we're training people to run it in their own communities on their own issues and then adapting it in whatever way that they see fit [01:29:30] for those for the communities that they're doing it for. And obviously, if you're going to do it for, uh your system and you're gonna do it for trans communities, then I My recommendation is you do it in partnership with an organisation that works with and for trans people, as we did when we were developing our programme. But, um, if people were interested and you have facilitation experience, um, that is something that you could contribute to the work that we're doing in, [01:30:00] um I. I sort of feel like I am struggling to give us great practical examples as everyone else. I actually do think that, um if you haven't done so in your workplace, your home with your family, with your friends, that treaty workshops are a really good and practical way to start unpacking, Um, your ways of approaching these ideas and are all of the ways all of the to unlearn. I think a lot of the things that we need to unlearn. Um, and there's much more to it obviously, than learning about the history of the treaty. As as MK has pointed out, there's Yeah, there's a lot of other [01:30:30] world view stuff that goes on there practically for just I think, um, yeah, we are launching this this, um, justice serve project, and we we're really keen to get people across the country to, um to sign up to host them. It is potentially a little learning, but I think it's potentially really powerful as well. Um, and, uh, would really support people in particular who have or good friends outside of Wellington and outside of the liberal bubble. Um, to maybe work with those people to convince them to help to be part of that and to host [01:31:00] those conversations because those are the communities that we need to see. Um, those moments of change and you know, potential. Yeah, to radicalise them basically, um decal. Decolonize. So Yeah. Um, that would be great. If anyone is interested in that, Then I also I failed to bring any cards with me, but, um, just speak. Um, information. Contact information is pretty easily available online. And if you want, If you were interested in finding out more about that, then please do get in touch. And the awesome woman who's coordinating that project will [01:31:30] will loop you in. I can probably add, um, to your organisations onto the Facebook event page so you can find them in one place. So cool. Anyone else? Any questions? Anything to like to say? Yeah, sure. Thank you. Um, the work that I do in a so far is working with, uh, care experienced young people. Um, and I work in the US as well, doing the same. And one of the the common things that I experience [01:32:00] in those communities are people who don't feel a belonging. But also they don't have. They don't have enough, uh, loving community education. Find out people to help them learn how to make friends. Um, and I and I was thinking about how these are some really amazing programmes. They have food. Um, there's a hang out in a park. I mean, that's really awesome. And I was as a newcomer to New Zealand, I was wondering, it seems like a kinder place than than [01:32:30] the place that I come from, which is not Canada. Um, and all those Canadians are probably lying. They're probably from where I'm from. Anyways, um, I was thinking about how how do you make it easy for people to get into these ideas? Some of them are philosophical, some of them, and they're all about connection and love. Um, but if you come from a place where you've been beaten down, traumatised and so forth, then you don't have [01:33:00] the strength to make friends and and to show up places. And I'm wondering if there's any more. I mean, you were already doing so much, but I wonder if you could respond to that. I, um I love Yeah, I So I recently have been speaking with someone from the Red Cross who are, um, one of those historic organisations who have a really long I think it's 100 and something 100 and 40 years or something. That Red Cross has been going anyway. [01:33:30] They they brought in my friend to try and revitalise their engagement with youth strategy. And they've been talking to 3000 young people over the last six months. And, um and, um, the report will come out, um, shortly. But one of the insights she shared with me, um, was that, um, young people really want ways to volunteer and be a part of community and contribute to the world that they want to see. But within that, the groups that most want to volunteer are care experienced young people and young people with disabilities. [01:34:00] And they're also the people that a lot of organisations do not adequately, um, provide for in terms of labour care and on boarding and all of those sorts of things. And so, um and so one of the things we've been talking we've been thinking about at action station after we did that process is right is OK, So the value of Kitana came up again and again and again in these conversations, how do we actually build an organisation that's grounded on the values of which to me is about when a person comes into a space making them feel welcome [01:34:30] with whatever it is that they bring into that space and, um, planning for that in very real ways. There's no way that you like people who have experienced trauma will, um, trauma comes up in lots of different ways and lots of unexpected ways. Even when you think that you have, Um, even when you think you've been in, it's it's sort of like it never really ends right. Trauma is a journey that you carry with you for a long time, which you'll know because you do this work. And so for us, what that looks like is when we're [01:35:00] doing our campaign around, um, which obviously was a lot of care, experienced young people and Children. But it was also parents who had had their Children taken away. Um, is we made sure that we had a budget to be able to pay for, um counselling, cultural supervision, whatever it is that the people that we were working with needed, we always made sure to provide food and real life events because that's really important. And it's a real equaliser. It's a real comforter. Um, and to be honest, we were just really explicit with the people that [01:35:30] we were working with and we would say, Um, hey, trauma can manifest in really real really real and unexpected ways. Do you have a plan for what you're going to do if that comes up? And we would just talk to them honestly about that? And so I guess, yeah, if you're facilitating a space in which you're wanting to work with, people who are carrying those sorts of trauma, I just think it's about being mindful and intentional about how you design your events, your processes to cater for that and, um, and not shy away from it. It's more work, but [01:36:00] it's so much richer as a result. And, yeah, I think it's really, um, relevant to the the that just speak works on, obviously, because the experience of care and of being taken from families, um, has such a in such an enormous relationship with who ends up in in prison. Um, who was who was incarcerated, Really, rather than ending up in it's very much an active process, Um, so and yeah, those people who have who have had those experiences, [01:36:30] um, are horrifically over represented in in the, um in our prison population, Um and also the young people who have the most understanding of what it takes to be part of a community. What is missing from many people's experiences of their youth and of a community that wouldn't give those protective, supportive factors that, um, protect people from the predatory aspects of our justice system? Um, yeah, and in a So just because we we started off, actually, a lot of our first events were kind of these camps [01:37:00] where, um, mostly, um, hosted at which, um, really horrifyingly burnt down last year. And actually, if anyone has any spare money, that is a very good cause to give it to Because, um, yeah, I think, um, Bruce Stewart and everything that his did there to create a space actually built by people who had, um, people who had been who were, uh, gang members who were young people who who had been caught up in the care system. Um, they were the ones who built that. So has it a really fascinating [01:37:30] on that basis as well. Anyway, we were very interested, I think, just be at the time to do events that kind of built on that, um, those histories and try to provide a space of inclusion and belonging, um, explicitly inviting people with those experiences to to value that what they were bringing to it and to make the invite really open and really intentionally welcoming. Because, I think, um, like with lots of volunteer organisations, you do end up with people who already have privilege and spare time and capacity and not. And people have frequently told them that [01:38:00] their insights matter and what they their their opinions are relevant. So they're like, Cool, I'll volunteer. I've got stuff to give. Um, and while those we love those people, they're great. Um, it's also really important to make explicit space for those, um who? Yeah, who who come with a lot of trauma. Um, but also a lot to give. And as Laura said food. Um um, planning, um, and then and support for those people and and practically for us, it looks like we decided to then fund a position for someone or organisation. [01:38:30] Who is our kind of point person for volunteers and people who want to get involved, Um, in our work, um, in a more ongoing basis, Um, and that that I think that that holding of space for that person to bring all the stuff that they will bring with them from their history and their interests. And the the work that we do is really important to not to not put people out, to not push people out and not to re traumatise them. Yeah, so it's definitely a process, though I think there's always more that we can do and kind of in an everyday [01:39:00] sense like this feels really kind of small and far away. But, um, finding doing whatever you personally can within your capacity in every interaction you have with someone to show and to show care and love. And, um and, you know, be kinder to yourself, so you can then have space to give that kindness on to others, um, share, share food [01:39:30] with with the people who come into your life. Share your stories, share your, um, your time, your homes, your hugs. We we are desired. Um and just, you know, every every positive community building interaction that someone is part of flowers out and ripples through to to everything else. Um, and it's something that I've really learned through, having kind of sometimes really drastically limited capacity myself. [01:40:00] Um, is is that every little thing you can offer is a huge thing. Um, and, um, I strongly believe that the opposite to capitalism and therefore everything is community. And so every act of community that we, um we manifest is just slowly unpicking at all the rest. Um, and we're we're building the world that we want [01:40:30] to be living in, and we're sharing that with the people around us because it's impossible to build community without sharing it. Um, And so, yeah, even, you know, if you you find that you have no capacity to do any volunteering, and you have no spare food in your cupboard and you feel like you've got absolutely nothing to offer, you know, you have you you have your company, um, that you can you could share with people. Um, and that's such a huge thing. Um, and then kind of like a step [01:41:00] on from that is acknowledge the people around you who you see doing that. Um, because, um, yeah, it might just be, you know, a small thing, but it's all part of that bigger thing. Um, yeah. So I think starts really small and and kind of reverberates out. OK, Cool. Thank you. Well, thank you very much to our panellists. It's been really nice to hear what you're up to and what's going on out there in the real world. [01:41:30] And, as would say, racist as fuck. Um OK, so would you like to close for us? I do some teaching in schools. I want to ask you all, but it's OK. You don't so face video into, um I went.

IRN: 2921
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/trans_awareness_week_gala.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004576
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089870
TITLE: Trans Awareness Week Gala
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Athena William; Jesse Porter; Kate Scarlet; Marian Clement
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Athena William; Aunty Dana's Op Shop; Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Act 2021; Christchurch terror attack (2019); Community Law; Elizabeth Kerekere; Family court; Gender Minorities Aotearoa (GMA); Human Rights Commission; InsideOUT Kōaro; Jesse Porter; Marian Clement; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; Naming New Zealand; Newtown; Newtown Community and Cultural Centre; Outerspaces (Wellington); Paekākāriki; PatchwerQ hui (Wellington); Project Youth (Kapiti Youth Support); Rainbow Crossing (Paekākāriki); Shift hui; Southern Cross Garden Bar; St Andrew's on the Terrace; Tapu te Ranga Marae; Tarot card reading; Tauranga; The World's (Unofficial) Shortest Pride Parade; Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); Transgender Day of Remembrance; Transgender flag; United Kingdom; United States of America; Wellington; Wellington International Pride Parade (WIPP); activism; artist; arts; autism; baking; birth certificate; deadname; driver licence; gender affirming healthcare; health; health care; human rights; identity; identity documents; immigration; intergenerational; isolation; jewellery; kinship; lesbian; mental health; mis-pronoun; non-binary; normalisation; passport; patriarchal system; podcast; pronouns; queer straight alliance (QSA); safe space; school; soap; social attitudes; stall; support; takatāpui; trans; trans awareness; trans visibility; transgender; transition; transphobia; volunteer; waiata; witchcraft; working group
DATE: 16 November 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Newtown Community and Cultural Centre, cnr Colombo and Rintoul Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Interviews with participants and stall holders at the Trans Awareness Week Gala. The event was held at the Newtown Community and Cultural Centre on 16 November 2019.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi. I'm Jessie Porter, and we're in the Newtown Community Centre at the Trans Awareness Suite Gala. Uh, so just coming up into the hall, there's, um, bunting all around with the trans colours. Trans flag stuff. We've got stalls, uh, clothing, food. Um, yeah. And just several stall owners and lots of people milling around people of all ages. Children, older people. Really nice vibe music play comfy chairs. Now, Jessie, this is, uh, the gala for win this week. But there are [00:00:30] other events happening as well during the week, aren't there? That's right. And, um, So there's Papa. Have an event on tomorrow. So that's going to be from 4. 30 to 6. 30. And it's kind of a, um, opening event for a exhibition that they've got on. That is so, uh, people in the transgender community have brought items of significance to their identity as transgender people, uh, to papa have taken photos, little stories to go along with them. Sort of 15 to 200 words, and they'll be showcasing that tomorrow afternoon. [00:01:00] And also, uh, ST Andrews are running the transgender day of Remembrance service as well. Yeah. No, I've heard that. And I think next Tuesday as well some, uh, messy university students are going to be running an event. A group called Beyond the Binary. Yeah, and that's just a sort of trans awareness, Um, get together, safe gathering kind of place this year. Seems like there are a lot more events happening. That's right. Yeah, last year I don't think we really had. We had a couple of things on Trans Day of Remembrance, as you know, like at Saint Andrews and [00:01:30] that, but no gala like this. No sort of big gatherings like what's happening and certainly no exhibition at so you know, it's it's really, really cool to see, really. So why are these events so important? To be honest, we're just kind of at that tipping point of visibility where the community is starting to be visible. It's in the public discourse. A lot of that discourse isn't led by or even involving people within the community, so there's a lot of misinformation, whereas events like this we can come out, we present ourselves. [00:02:00] We speak for ourselves. People can come. They can engage, they can learn they can get some nice food, just hang out, have a good time, you know? So it's just being showing that we are a part of the community. You know, we your neighbours, we your colleagues, we're just people getting by, you know? So when you when you come to these events what? What? What's the feeling that you get? Um, just that sense of community, Just that sense of not being alone, not being different, not being weird. You know, it's just you're [00:02:30] just hanging out as a person with other people, um, you know, and just to feel celebrated, I guess. Proud of what you are and all of that. So can you recall your most memorable, uh, trans Rambo LGBTI moment? And why was it so memorable? Gosh, um, it was funny. Actually. It was a community event. Actually, it was the So I came out and I began [00:03:00] transitioning medically before I actually engaged in the community at all. So at the point when I joined the community, it was I was already beginning to transition, and it was I had a lot of fear. I had a lot of uncertainty. I really had no idea, or I had some quite warped ideas of what my life was going to be like, and the very first event that I went to was just a sort of social gathering, a community gathering at Southern Cross. And it was just a bunch of Trans guys that just were hanging out and having a drink. And I just remember and I went along and I sat down and it was [00:03:30] remarkable because it was it was just some normal people. It was some normal guys sitting around, you know, there was a lawyer, there was a student. I think there were two lawyers. There was a a nurse and they were just normal people living normal lives. And that was such a relief for me to realise that actually, like my life wasn't over because I had made this decision and all it was was just people sitting around being their normal Selves. And that's kind of what I think. Events like this do as well as it just kind of normalises our presence. Um, yeah, [00:04:00] and just finally, if you had a magic wand that could be waved at anything or anyone, what would you wave at first and why? Oh, it's easy to say. The medical side of things. But to be honest, just social attitudes and things like that, because I think things like legal protections, medical access, all of that follows on from social attitudes. It follows on from understanding. It follows on from acceptance not just tolerance but acceptance. [00:04:30] Celebration. So I think, yeah, it would be those social attitudes in education. Uh, so at the moment, we're at the trans awareness gala and we're at the inside out stall. Um, and it's representing an organisation that helps, uh, Rainbow Youth that, um, need anything at all from support to ideas to just have some fun. Yeah, it's a place to be yourself. It's a beautiful summer of inside out. That's cool. And can you tell me what's [00:05:00] on your table? So we've got a bunch of resources, some of which we've created ourselves and others, um, that we've sourced from elsewhere and other organisations in the rainbow community. We've also got some lovely bookmarks with a lot of, um, rainbow content, including, um, trans and, um, non binary characters so that we can have a chat about you know, those narratives and bring them to the fore a bit more, and we've got some lovely merch, some totes and some t-shirts. So, um, what's the [00:05:30] best part about being part of inside out? Um, I feel like it's just like a nice big family of like, everybody is allowed to sort of express themselves uniquely and then use that to help younger people and help other people understand the rainbow community that maybe aren't a part of it. So I feel like there's just lovely diversity that we're allowed to bring. Yeah. So how did you get involved? I, um, got involved with inside out. Probably when I was in high school. [00:06:00] Um, they were still in conjunction with a few other, um, places, like schools. Out was a thing. And so once you know a few people who are organising and volunteering, you kind of get connected with everyone, and they were just really reaching out and lovely and at pride, they would also have stalls. And so it's just like a place where everyone's smiling at you and very friendly. So I thought, Yeah, I might as well join I had the right hair colour. Um, at the time, um, I got involved through which is, like, um, an annual camp that we have for rainbow people. Um, [00:06:30] and then I got I was in high school as well. Running a QS a or quest straight alliance. Um, so I started going to, um, the, um annual QS A leaders. Who is that we annual monthly. Um, who is that? We have, um And I got involved through there, and now I'm here. I'm stuck here. Yeah, um, it's been a few years now that I've kind of been, um, involved in inside out in various different capacities, But, um, yeah, I started out just through, like, friends of mine who were doing [00:07:00] this work. And, um yeah, my first kind of event also was Chef. And I just like it was this beautiful atmosphere and just like, unlike anything I had experienced, um, having all of these rainbow mainly rainbow in the in the same space. And just seeing how magical that was, it just made me like, yeah, want to do as much as I could with inside out. And now I'm the volunteer and education coordinator inside out, which I'm super excited about. And it's great. Yeah. Can you describe your first experience at shift? How How was that? [00:07:30] Oh, um I'm in a who also has a DH D. So I'm, like, all over the place. And I was just making friends left and right. Um and then it was sort of like that thing of you walk in and you suddenly feel like you're home of like, it's super safe and you can just be yourself and you make it like the best friends I have. I made it shift the first time I went, Um, so, yeah, I would say it's just like it's safe and it's loving and you learn a lot and you're allowed [00:08:00] to, like, change. Like you like, you know what I mean when I say change of like, you're allowed to explore yourself and explore like, you know, how you interact with people and those sort of things, Yeah, yeah. Every year that I went back to shift, I was sort of a different person. But every time it's magical to see the elder people in our queer community come together and sit and have stories, I remember when I went I think it was 2016 and we got, like, really privileged to be in that island Bay Um, unfortunately, [00:08:30] that's not with us anymore. But, um, we were, like, in this little room and everyone was sitting in a circle and just talking about, like, the the Maori, um, history side of things. And it was just real magical to be able to learn from people who have so much knowledge and, um, also just to make friends. And even there were some, uh, workshops about, like, healthy relationships and healthy communication that we just never talk about and never think about in other spaces that was so valuable to learn. Yeah. I, I think that's also really cool. Like we learn about, like, the where we are and the we sort of learn [00:09:00] about, um and it's sort of like we can explore our queerness away from, like, the super Western European setting that, like, tries to put everybody in a box and that sort of thing, which I think as well as super freeing Yeah, you mentioned earlier about, um Q SAS Queer Straight alliances. Are they more or less relevant in high schools nowadays? Are they needed more or less? I think that we're seeing way more Q SAS like we've been to quite a few Q SAS. I've just started this year. [00:09:30] Um and actually that was just I remember that it was on RN. There was just like somebody did a study about how, um is a student achievement like achievement of rainbow students. Um, how, like, I think they're 14 times more likely to have yeah, better academic results if they know that their teachers and the faculty are supportive of their identities. So it's like it's, you know, positive in the, like the fact that they have a space to go to, but it also improves just like their general well-being. [00:10:00] Um, and I think as well we're seeing a lot more development and how Q SAS are used. Like a lot of, um, Q SAS have, uh, sort of like activist groups and making wider change in policies and in their schools. Um, and like some groups are just like there of you can go once a week and you can just chill there and make connections and make friends and that sort of thing, Yeah, yeah, I think it's so important from a mental health perspective, especially in high school, There's never gonna be a day when you You don't need to make sure that high school students don't feel isolated. [00:10:30] Because if you feel isolated in high school, it's a huge risk for not only you but everyone around you that, um, could be worried about you. So to have a place where you can feel like you're part of something and feel like, you know, people care about you, that's huge. I think as well I was chatting with somebody, Um, because I just went up to Tauranga for inside out, and, um, we were chatting with somebody who ran a QS a up there, and they were talking like, It's so awesome that it's getting to a point where, like, we don't have [00:11:00] to hate ourselves for this amount of time before we can start loving ourselves that sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah. I agree that with Compass as well that, um, that the function of it has changed, I think, Um, but there is still a lot of yeah, a lot of work to be done, I think, um, in order to change the wider school culture, um, in a few, um, secondary schools especially, um, but yeah, it's just very like incredible seeing these young people. Yeah, do that self advocacy as well. Um, And organise [00:11:30] yeah. Their own events and awareness raising like, yeah, it's a cool space for them to exercise those leadership skills through that passion that they've got for advocating for their peers. I think is really beautiful. Yeah. So, for each of you, personally, um, what has been the most memorable, um, trans Rainbow LGBTI event or moment in your life and why it's such a huge question. Um, I would say it was [00:12:00] this really fun time in high school where I was about 13 or 14. I was really nervous to come out of the closet. I was identifying as a lady at the time or a woman. And I was just about to come out as lesbian because a huge crush on my friend. So I was sat down with, like, three or four of my best friends. I thought they would all hate me. I said, You know, this is the deal. This is who I I am, I'm I'm a lesbian. And then we went around the circle, and it turns out they were also all gay, but they had not told each other, and it was just really wholesome because we sort of found each other without knowing. And, um, just seeing the change in their growth over [00:12:30] the years has been so meaningful. But knowing that, you know, while I was so scared there, there was a group of people with me that I could trust. Yeah, um, I think it's, like, super easy to just say like shift, because it's amazing. But I think, um, I when I was running my QS a I'm not in school anymore. Um, but I loved going there, and we would sort of, like, sit around and we would put chairs in a circle, which we called the Platonic circle of love. Um, and we would just chat about how our like our days were going. And if anybody needed to talk about anything, it [00:13:00] was sort of like, OK to chat about things that were on people's minds. And that was just sort of lovely that, you know, there were people like in year nine that were able to actually, like, talk about some stuff that had been going on for them and being able to share that and, you know, have like that peer support sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah, I think, um, mine one that really sticks out to me is probably another moment at shift was, um, after Elizabeth had given her around. Um, like, the [00:13:30] of the term. And, um, you could just, like, feel the swell of, like, gratitude in the room. And we all, like, stood up and and sung a and I was just, like, weeping. It was like, the first workshop of the day, and I was like, This is gonna be a long weekend, but, um, yeah, just to, like, be in a space where, um that facilitates that, um, as Hayden said as well, that connecting of generations and and like, cultural frameworks or with that shared vision to, like, create a space [00:14:00] for, um, gender Diverse. Um, and Rainbow young people was like, I just was so grateful to have been in that space there. Yeah, it was real awesome. And just finally, if you had a magic wand and you were to waive it at anything or anyone, um, what would you do first? Uh, definitely, uh, from as a trans person who's trying to get surgeries, um, waive it at the whole government and just make sure that there's a safe and actually [00:14:30] researched way for us to get health care appointments and for them to be cost effective and for the waiting list not be so long. So I can, you know, get my top surgery in a way that anyone else who needs an urgent surgery would get one. And you know, even insurance companies as well to not say, you know Oh, it's cosmetic, it's not, You know, it's really a matter of my life is drastically gonna be improved by this, and without it, I am going to suffer. So, um, hoping they can all get that together soon. Yeah, um, I would probably waive it at this thing that we need to, like, categorise [00:15:00] ourselves, or, like, put everything like, instead of just letting people exist, having to make people explain themselves. I think I would just, you know, get rid of that and just let people exist. Know you feel Yeah, I think I would like to that and just say yeah, like, I wish we could just take people at their word and fully trust them and, like, know that they are the experts on their own experience and and their own identity and like we should never be. Yeah, feel that we [00:15:30] have the authority to question that and to yeah, somebody by saying, No, you aren't what you say because I think that's yeah, we need to give as much space to that and celebrate that as we can. Yeah. Um, my name's Kate Skyler. She her pronouns and, um, we're at the tracor, and I'm here for naming New Zealand. What's naming New Zealand? Naming New Zealand is, um, a charity that raises money to help people change their names [00:16:00] and passports and get birth certificates and everything when they are transitioning, whether that be within the binary or non-binary. We support anyone in the greater Wellington region to financially do that and also help them with their paperwork. So so So what are the costs involved in in doing those changes? Ah, well, the pricey ones are the name change in the passport, so they're It's approximately 100 and $80 each, so it's always going up and down. And [00:16:30] then there's things like your new driver's licence, which will probably cost around. I think it's at about 40 something at the moment. Um, most of the time, when it comes to the birth certificate, the actual cost is quite low. But we do provide financial support to help get the medical evidence you need to go through a family court. And then we help you with all the family court process as well, which is more process trickier than financially tricky. So have the processes, um, got easier or harder over the last couple of years. [00:17:00] The process for the passport and the driver's licence have gotten heaps easier after the Human Rights Commission released that report. Um, but the birth certificate process is still stuck. It's a legislative process that was set out in 1995 and it's still quite difficult. You still have to apply to family court. There's still a medical standard you have to show judge a judge All this medical evidence. It's very, um, shameful and intimidating [00:17:30] process for a lot of people, and it also in no way allows your birth certificate to recognise. If you identify as non-binary, it only allows male or female identification. So it's very old. Yeah, and in terms of cost, I mean, why does it cost so much? Well, I don't really know. These are all government set prices in terms of, like, the passport, driver's licence and name change. So they just set that. Um, yeah, uh, I've heard it's to [00:18:00] cover the actual cost of administrative process, but it seems it's a big bar for a lot of people. So so do you have, um, a lot of people coming to you for for, um, financial assistance? Yeah, we get a few. We we're not huge in terms of our fundraising. We always need more money, but we help who we can. And then even if we can't financially help, we're always happy to help fill in paperwork a trans friendly lawyer or justice of the peace to sign things. You don't have to answer any awkward questions, you know. So [00:18:30] do you think the, um, the process has improved since the the new kind of labour coalition government has been in power, but it hasn't improved yet. There is a working group in place to try and improve it. But, um, there was a bill going before parliament which would have hopefully hopefully made it super easy. But it's currently delayed, and nothing much is happening. And what is the status of the working group? 00, my gosh. So I'm the chair of the working group, and we're still just [00:19:00] in the process of researching and putting together our report. Yeah. So, today, um, can you tell me what's on your store? Uh, what's on your store table? Oh, cool. So we've got a whole bunch of, uh, cookies. We've got some vegan double chocolate chip with salt. We've got some white chocolate, cashew burnt butter, some regular chocolate chip, a whole bit knitting and crochet donated by some of our volunteers, a wine fundraiser and some free range chocolate. That's a lot of baking. [00:19:30] There is a lot of baking. I was over 100 cookies. I was doing that last night. Tell me, W, why are why are these events so important to to to have in the community? Well, I think it's a really great opportunity for our community to come together and to meet each other. It's great for our broader community, like Newtown to know we exist and to have a chance to show their support for us. Uh, and it's just really nice to hang out and get [00:20:00] to know people. Yeah, in terms of naming New Zealand, what are the what are the big, biggest kind of obstacles you face and what are the biggest opportunities as well? Our biggest obstacles are just the difficulty of the birth certificate process. That's a big thing for a lot of people and also the financial barriers. The biggest opportunities. Um, we I find Wellington's a really great [00:20:30] place. A lot of people want to support us. We've got, um a lot of the broader queer community comes along to all of our movie fundraisers and really gets behind us. So we feel very supported and loved by them. And we're also part of outer Spaces, part of their umbrella group. And the Outer Spaces Board just provides so much administrative accounting and, like governance support, we couldn't do it without them. They're great just personally for you. What has been your most [00:21:00] memorable, uh, rainbow LGBTI trans moment. And why so tough? Um, at the start of this year, we ran a really great quiz. Um, we raised over $900. Uh, that that really was really amazing. To see so many people coming together and being part of that quiz. Um oh, and also, just in my day [00:21:30] job, I work for community law. And, um, we were involved in getting the driver's licence gender change thing, Um, so that you could do it by stat deck rather than getting your birth certificate done first. It was a pretty fun moment. Yeah, And just finally, if you had a magic wand, um, and you could wave it at anything or anyone who would you wave it at first? Or what would you wave it at first? And why such hard questions? [00:22:00] I would just like to wave it generally at New Zealand and just, like get people to understand that it's OK if people are different, like it's not a threat. If you've got some power or something, it's not a threat to your own position to give trans people rights to let them in to make them feel safe. Like just let's all be nicer to each other called [00:22:30] Gabriela and I am at the Scala because I am a volunteer at Auntie Dana's op shop, and they're run by G MA Um, and so they're the ones that have organised this event as well. And tell me about Auntie Dana. Um, Auntie is really cool. It's It's an up shop, but I feel like it's quite different from a lot of other shops because of the that is backed behind. Um, you know, the It's not just, um, for [00:23:00] selling clothes. It's also about providing information, too. And I think that's a really cool angle. And, um, just something that's quite necessary. And how did you get to, um, to be volunteering there? I walked past the shop and I saw just a sign in the window and see volunteers needed. And I thought it would be a really fun thing to do. I've I've met a lot of cool people here, and I've become, um, a part of a pretty cool community, too, which I'm quite grateful for. So [00:23:30] this event, uh, which is part of the Trans Awareness Week? Can you tell me why things like this gala are important? Um, I think it's it's really important to just bring awareness to a lot of things that people not only may not be, um, quite knowledgeable about, because I know that, um, even today it is quite new. information, um, of being non binary and being trans [00:24:00] and, um, not conforming to a single identity. Um, but it also allows for a safe place for those people to just occupy and, um, express themselves freely because that isn't afforded to as many people as it should be. And so creating events like this allows for that to happen. Can you describe, um, what what we're seeing in the hall? Yes. So, um, at the gala, it's It's a really awesome event. There's a lot of, um, cool stores. Um, of [00:24:30] course, because it's run by G MA. There's a couple of stores for, um, Auntie Down shop. So we've got a bag for $5 where there's a couple of tables full of clothes. Um, there's a lot of stores that are selling sweets and food and baking. There's a couple that have a lot of information around, um, the LGBT T plus, um, and community and diversity and things like that. Um, [00:25:00] there's also a tarot card reading store, which I'd love to go to later. And yeah, a few other things. Um, and also there's some performances going on later on as well, which is gonna be really cool. And later on there's gonna be a reading of a book, which is gonna be really exciting. And I think, um, one of the things later on today is the launch of the counting ourselves report. Yes. Yeah, definitely. Um, there's later on in the evening. I'm really excited. In all honesty, I don't know very much about it, so I'm keen to be a part [00:25:30] of it. Just to kind of sit back and learn, too. Yeah. So what do you think the, um, the biggest issues facing, um, kind of trans and Non-binary communities in New Zealand are at the moment. Um, there's there's definitely a lot of transphobia out there. Um, you know, I. I see it in a lot of different places in my family. Including, you know, I've I've got a little brother who has come out as Trans this year, and I see it in my family, you know, [00:26:00] ignoring pronouns and, you know, using, um, his birth name and things like that. And then you see, obviously a lot more, because, you know, trans people being killed every single day and it's terrible. And so I think Yeah, this is This is a really big step in in terms of saying, you know, like Trans people are fucking people, you know, Um, the fact that you we need an event like this is kind of disheartening, because [00:26:30] if if the idea of trans people in the LGBT Q a, um, community was normalised, then we wouldn't actually need this. Otherwise, it would just be a really cool gala. But, um, yeah, it's really important that this kind of is, um, pushed out into the community. So if you had a magic wand and you could wave that magic wand at anything or anyone, what would you go for for first and why? Oh, my gosh. Um, [00:27:00] sticking to the I would wave it at anyone that had either no idea, um, who or what Trans people were and fill them with knowledge and kindness and love. I would just love to fill everyone with kindness and love. Um, I'm Marion Clement. Um, I'm here with my girlfriend. Um, we're selling the baking we did last night at the gala. I I'm Athena. Um, I'm Marion's [00:27:30] partner. I'm here to help, um, with Marion's stall or set up in, um, the Gullah. We've got, um, chocolate and almond. Um, their cook their cookies. They're, um, actually kind of sables, which is this kind of French cookie that's very light and fluffy. There's the texture of a cake. We've got chocolate chip cookies with a bit of a twist because we brown the butter first, so it's got a really sweet toffee flavour to it. And, um, we also have nice little cinnamon cookies as well. [00:28:00] This is mostly Marion's project. She's the one who, um, wanted to do this, and this was like her goal for it, I guess. End year, Um, I'm here as like a volunteer to help her out, Um, where I can just I've not really done the baking, but just providing what she needs, like markers and whiteboards and things like that. Signs that So So how did you get into baking there? [00:28:30] Um, I started, um, I did cooking in school, the the cooking classes there, and I had a really strong interest in baking because, unlike cooking where it's a lot more of an art, baking is really easily done because it's kind of a science, so it's weighing things in proportion and putting everything together. And since I'm a bit since I'm autistic, um, it goes really, really easily in my brain. And I also, um, like cooking for people like at the, um, queer Strait Alliance that I used to that I ran at my school. I always tried to bring [00:29:00] in baking every week to for so people can have something to snack on and stuff like that. And something happens when you're when you're actually sharing food with people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's always enjoyable to, um, it's It's a good way to help my self esteem. I like people. I like seeing people eat my food and feel better and, you know, enjoying it and stuff like that. What was it like running a queer strait alliance? Um, it was quite interesting. Um, I I tended to try and make it kind of non hierarchical because I don't really like that. [00:29:30] Um, because when the when the leader leaves, group foot can fall apart. So I tried to instil this, um, thing where everyone kind of came in each week and everyone kind of helped out and stuff like that. Um, it was immensely enjoyable, though. Um, we managed to, um, get change. We managed to, um, change some stuff like we managed to make get private, changing rooms put in the gym and stuff like that. And what did you get out of being part of a QS a, um, I enjoy the lot I got I just got a lot of personal enjoyment out of it. Um, [00:30:00] I come from quite a privileged position, I would say economically. So I tend to try my best to fight for those who don't have the advantages that I have. Um, especially other trans people. I feel a very strong, I guess I would say kinship. Almost kind of familiar kinship for a lot of trans people, because I I've known enough to know how hard it can be for a lot of people. I've been quite fortunate, but I try to fight because I'm in the position where I I'm completely safe from that. Why [00:30:30] do you think, uh, events like the gala are important? Well, I think it gives all the trans people an opportunity to have an outlet for their creativity. A lot of the time, sometimes sometimes they and also be able to easily sell it because you can't just set up a stall on your own in that screen and expect to, you know, recoup costs and stuff like that. So I think it gives people a lot of opportunity to express their creativity, maybe get a bit of money or raise money for their own organisations and stuff like that. Mhm. Can you, uh, describe for me [00:31:00] your most memorable, um, trends, Rainbow LGBTI, um, moment or event and why it was so momentous? Um, I guess the most momentous event for me. Um most momentous, momentous, PO positive event I'm going to go with. Um But, um, it was kind of listening to a podcast done by a trans woman, and it's kind of hearing them. [00:31:30] It was kind of that moment when you kind of realised how much you had in common with that person and kind of how much of a connection you had and being able to through them, realise who you are. Um, I guess it will have to be how I got into this sort of lifestyle, um, to really, outwardly start living as trends. Uh, would have been [00:32:00] around my 20th birthday last year. Um, that's where I got to move in, um, to a house that's all full of trans women. And, you know, we were We were pretty close. Um uh, almost like sister like, I guess, Um, and, you know, we're just comfortable being us around them. You know, I, um every time I look back, it that's just I think why? Why? We're called to be the first time and the most distinct [00:32:30] time. But it's also a time that I, um That I, uh, Miss, really. And and just finally, if you had a magic wand and you could waive it at anything or anyone, uh, what would you wave it at first and why? I guess the selfish side of me would, uh, would would want to do it for, uh, Marion, Um, possibly even myself. To be honest, we've [00:33:00] not had a very good year. So we could really use as much of the, uh as much of the help that we can get. Um, like, not not saying, as you know, to be, like, selfish to get, you know, to get everything to ourselves. It's just that, um, to just get what we need, really, But also to, um the other side of me, which is just, I don't know, find out what, um, [00:33:30] what people need and and see what it is. So it can do the really provide it? Um, yeah, I guess with a magic wand, You you You could provide exactly what it is, but yeah, it's always knowing exactly what it is that people need. Um, that's the issue. I guess I would, uh, wait for matric wand, and, uh, probably try to, uh, basically, [00:34:00] uh, stop. Uh, stop. Um, people keep, uh, stop. People from, uh, keep, uh, hosting turf events all the time, especially in parliament. Fine. Because to me, they're the most harmful, awful people in the world. And I've seen where that kind of normalised bigotry leads. Not personally. But there are things that have happened to my friends, which are just abhorrent and supporting that kind [00:34:30] of trying to, um, normalise. That kind of horrible thought is just monstrous. Really. So I'm Alex. I'm a volunteer for gender minorities at, and I work in a diner op shop, and we've just been setting up, uh, the G MA Youth gala, which has been a project like run by, uh, run by and for trans youth for the whole community. Um, and we're just setting up the event to start today. So how did the event, uh, come about? Um, we were kind of, like, brainstorming stuff that we could do, like as a positive community. Um, project. And we were thinking that, like, [00:35:00] Trans youth in particular needed a space where they could publish, like, the amazing, like, creative stuff in their community and the produce that they make and and they wouldn't have to feel like they had to, like, give money to someone else. So it was just creating a space for that. And this is the idea we came up with. And you were saying that you were with, um, Auntie, Tell me. Tell me about Auntie. Um, So Auntie Danas is an op shop. It was based, um, up at 1 to 8. And it's moved, and I joined it when it moved about five months ago. Now, um, and it's just an shop based in Newtown. And I work there, sort of like 5 [00:35:30] to 6 days a week, Sort of depending. Um, yeah, that is like a really great space. And obviously you get a lot of people coming in for the shop element. But it's also a really good way to, like, get some of our positive trans messaging out there. And so Auntie Dinas feeds into Is it gender? Minorities are? Yeah. So, um, the gender centre is based literally just above, um, So Auntie Dinas is about creating, like, literally a physical space so that we can have run the gender centre upstairs, which is open on Wednesdays and Thursdays and also create a space for, um, trans community events, which which run from the same building. So So, what kind [00:36:00] of events do you run? Um, so we run raw sugar, which is, um, a event for, like, trans people in the community, which is, uh, I think it's on the website. It's on one Saturday, a month. Um, and that's a really nice one as well. Like, it was mostly about creating, like a alcohol free environment for trans people to just kind of, like hang out. And we can, um, like, just chat about stuff, and we sometimes watch movies and things. It's quite informal, but it's quite a valuable space. Um, and then there's also gender centre drop in where people can come and get, um, like free legal advice, for example, advice about [00:36:30] like medicine and that kind of stuff. So it's quite a lot like serves the community in a lot of different ways. I think, What do you think the biggest issues facing trans communities are at the moment in New Zealand? Um, in New Zealand? I think that the lack of access to health care is one thing, definitely. It's an element of like being in a postcode lottery and, like compared to a lot of other developed nations like the surgery waiting lists, for example, are very inadequate. Um, I also think that there's a massive uh, it's not not It's not as bad in some ways is in America and Britain. But there's certainly like a domination [00:37:00] of like anti transgender hate, which is quite normalised and mainstream, and that like allows, you know, and that can spiral out of control. And that allows and credits things like anti transgender hate crime and that kind of stuff, which is a real issue for a lot of people in the community. One of the things later on today is the launch of the counting ourselves report. Can you tell me about that? Yes. So I've been in contact with some of the people who founded that report, and we kind of like, asked them if they wanted to do the launch here. So that's actually really important because, like, as [00:37:30] compared to a lot of other countries in New Zealand, doesn't actually have a lot of information about, like, trans statistics and like trans hate crime and things like that because the data isn't collected on trans people. So the counting ourselves report is really important to kind of in some extent confirm what you do, you know about the prejudices we face as a community, things like mental health and homelessness. But it also gives a validation so that we can get funding to address those problems. Once we've got sort of like hard numbers, which we now have, we can we can actually talk about it as a matter of fact. And that's that's going to be a really important tool for lots of different organisations working [00:38:00] in the sector. So have you seen the report? And if you have, what are some of the issues and some of the recommendations. Um, I haven't read the recommendations element of it. I'm sure like Jack will be coming and talking about that a bit later. I think some of the more striking stuff is, you know, confirming things we already know about, Um, uh, transgender levels of of mental distress. So, um, I can't quote the exact figure, but, um, it's, you know, in inordinately about eight times higher than the levels of psychological distress amongst youth trans youth, compared to 8% [00:38:30] for the rest of the population. And it's stuff like that that it really illustrates the personal effects of transphobia and exclusion and trans exclusionary policies and how that really affects us as individuals. And you know, the importance of you not around that as a community. And I think it's statistics like that, you know, which I'm sure Jack will be talking about later that really illustrate the need for positive action in events like this. Speaking of events like this for you, um, what has been your most memorable, uh, trans rainbow LGBTI event [00:39:00] or moment? And why? Um, to be honest, I think the first the most memorable was the first time I saw Auntie Dana's up shop. Um, so I just came here, um, from from England and I was having real trans related legal visa issues, and I was really sort of like, very isolated and struggling. And I remember just walking down the street and seeing a shop that was full of trans flags and transport messaging and that really hit home. And I just went straight in and was like, Hi, I'd like to volunteer here. Um, and that was sort of five months ago, and I'm there pretty much all the time. And that sort [00:39:30] of here now. So, um, you know, it's not. It's not the biggest momentous moment as a as a community, but for me, that was That was really important. And I think like it was really nice that we can offer that moment for a lot of other trans youth as well. And just finally, if you had a magic wand, what would you waive it at first and why? Um, let's think. I wish that, um, families and communities could rally around their trans people and trans youth better. Um, and I wish that, like it was much more acceptance was [00:40:00] the norm rather than rather than the exception. I wish that every time someone told me that you know, a really nice story about their parents giving them a hug or using their new name and pronounce that that didn't surprise me. I think that would be that would be the best thing for our community and individuals. I'm homie. I bought some embroider and jelly that I made just as a hobby. And some of the embroidered are inspired by some drug makeup artist. And yeah, I sewed and painted stuff. Just make some artwork. [00:40:30] So how did you How did you get into making the jewellery? I recently finished studying and looking for a job and not much else to do, to be honest, Nice to be unemployed. Out of all the story. What? What is your favourite piece? Think that one? I was, I don't know, Like canvas em employed it with some eye makeup on is probably my favourite. I use some stitches on pens and some [00:41:00] makeup supplies to make it. What? What What inspires you? Uh, one of my favourite drug artist. So So why do you think these kind of, um um gala events are important. It would be great if we get a chance to, like LA some money both for, like, organisation and people who are doing, like, work on it. Uh, art is a bit hard to sell, and also, like, a lot of lame organisation, like basically everywhere is so bound up on it, and so much people [00:41:30] are like working unpaid. So both for G MA and anyone who's here like it is nice to, like, give awareness and people are put into express themselves. But also, it would be really important if you can make some profit out of it, To be honest, Yeah. If if you had a magic wand and you could wave it at anything or anyone, what would you wave it at first? And why patriarchy? Because it's so toxic. [00:42:00] I'm just here representing project youth from out in coast. Um, so, yeah, I'm just selling scones, hopefully raising money for them. Um, project youth is a group for teenagers on the coast. Um, they're part of the LGBT community. Um, I've been going there for about four years now, but I'm technically not a work facilitator or anything. Um, [00:42:30] mostly I just like talking to people who have similar experiences to me, um, a few years ago. It helps me figure out my sexuality. Um, yeah. And everyone there is really friendly and nice to talk to, so it's just a good place to hang out now. Did project you participate in the, um, uh, pride parade a couple of weeks ago? Uh, yes, yes, we were at the Pride parade. Um, we made a few banners for that and [00:43:00] just went down and had some fun. Um, yeah, we didn't do a whole lot, but just marched in the parade. So what was that like? Um, it was fun. There was a lot of people there supporting pride and all that. Um, yeah, it was just good to see how many people are so supportive. Um, was that your first pride parade? Yeah. Yeah, for me, that was my first pride parade. Um, I was planning on going to the Wellington [00:43:30] Pride parade, but obviously that got postponed. And yeah, um, I'm looking forward to going to the Wellington Pride parade next year, though, so hopefully that's good. So can you describe, uh, what the feeling was like being in in that pride parade. Um, it felt a bit crowded sometimes, but mostly it was pretty good. Um, everyone seemed really happy and cheerful. Um, there were a lot of different groups that [00:44:00] came along to support the parade. Um, I think there are a whole bunch of drummers at the end, and yeah, it was good to see that all of was getting involved. So yeah, it was just really supportive. Like I said, why do you think, Um, these kind of, uh, community events are so important. Um, it really helps raise awareness for the entire community. Um, especially in this case, it's [00:44:30] for trans people who don't really get seen a whole lot in the media. Um, well, not in good light, at least. Um, so it just really helps to show people that we aren't scary. What has been your most memorable, uh, rainbow LGBTI trend memory And why, um, it was probably coming out to my mom just because it was really funny. Um, I [00:45:00] came out to her, and her response was to say, Me too. Yeah, so yeah. So So how did you react? Um, I was a bit surprised, but she'd always been supportive. So it wasn't too much of a shock. Um, yeah, In general, my family is really good with the whole thing, but yeah, I know other people don't have the same experience. Um, yeah. So it's been really good. And just [00:45:30] finally, if you had a magic wand, you could wave at anything or anyone. Um, what would you wave it at first and why? Um, I'd probably just try and help some people out, Um, maybe give people some money to get surgeries and whatever. So today we're at the Trans Pride Week gala. Um and, yeah, I'm really excited. And you're one of the stall holders. Yes, I am. So my stall [00:46:00] is just basically made to look as witchy as possible. I've got, like, a spirit cloth down and moon paraphernalia everywhere, like a little fake raven. I'm basically just here to do some tarot readings, maybe offer some zines about, uh, moon magic. Quote unquote. Um and yeah, that's my story. So how did you get into tarot reading? I always like tarot. Tarot is one of those things that [00:46:30] is always on the edges of society as especially growing up. Christian, you know, it's just like Oh, it's one of those things. And, um, the more that I looked into it, the more I realised it was a really fun psychological tool to examine your life. So I really enjoy doing tarot readings for other people, be it if they want it super witchy and like mystical. Or if they just want reviewing of, like, a problem that's going on currently. [00:47:00] How do people react to tarot card readings? It's It's a wild mix because you've got some people who are just they get so swept up in the moment and they're so grateful and it's a wonderful experience to be a part of, And then you've got some people who are just like Yeah, sure, I guess, like, go for it and they don't really care. And that's fun. It's not as fun, though. So how does [00:47:30] a a private reading differ from doing, say, a reading in a in a kind of public space, like like here we are at the. To be honest, I'm going to try and make it as private as possible for the people like I've got my accessories all set up so that I can turn towards the person and give them a private experience. Doing something in public is nice, but I think it's really like, especially when you're doing tarot stuff. It's really important to give that person that one on one time. Tell me why is it important [00:48:00] to have something like a Trans gala or, um, a trans event? Um, within the community? I think it's important because I'm an immigrant. I'm from America and currently my country has gone a little bit insane. I don't know if you've noticed, but, you know, so being able to come somewhere and see support and love and other [00:48:30] trans artists out there feels so deeply gratifying And like, maybe I'm just that much safer, which there aren't enough words to say what that feels like. If you had a, uh, a magic wand and you could kind of wave it at anything, what would you wave it at first and why? Ah, so many things. So many things. Um, [00:49:00] I think first and foremost I would of course, wave it at my home and maybe erase the last four years. But that's just me personally, and something that's really important for me personally is as an immigrant I am. Currently, If I come out as trans to them, there will be a lot of invasive questions that I get asked. Currently, they see [00:49:30] it as a disease, and that's terrifying. So, you know, I'm definitely a girl when I talk to them, and I'm not anything else. I can't be myself. I, uh So I make soaps, um, with my brand. And so they're all 100% handmade and 100% vegan friendly, and they smell amazing. They do? Yes. So So what is the process of making a soap? Um, basically, you, [00:50:00] um, add fats and oils to a sodium hydroxide so lie and the chemical process of that turns it from fat into soap. And then how do you find the the the the flavours? Just fragrance oils or essential oils, and some of them work. Some of them you make, You're like, Oh, no, don't like that one. Not today. Yeah. And what what is your favourite? Uh, probably blue musk. So this one here, it's a nice, subtle smell, as well compared to some of them, like lavender is very strong. [00:50:30] Yeah. Can you Can you describe some of the other other ones you've got here. Um, so I've got one called fresh grass that smells very much like grass as it's been cut. Um, I also have one called monkey fights. Um, which is a tropical fruit smell. Yeah. And yeah, a lot of kind of not the floral smells that are normally with handmade soaps. So how did you get into soap making? I was actually looking for Christmas presents a couple of years ago for friends and didn't find a whole heap of [00:51:00] non floral options. Um, so I was like, I can do this. It won't be that hard. And yeah, it kind of expanded to being pretty much full time business for me. So being here at today's event, what does that mean to you? Uh, it's just kind of a a space to able to get out and, you know, offer things to the community, that I I used to live in Wellington when I just as I was starting my transition. So it's nice to come back and be able to show that, you [00:51:30] know, I have done things in my life and, yeah, being successful with it, what do you think? Some of the biggest issues facing trans communities are today in New Zealand. Um, just the lack of understanding. I think like we can make all these laws. But if people don't understand kind of the reasons and like, are those laws necessarily going to make that much of an impact? Can you tell me just on a on a personal note, um, your most memorable, um, Trans [00:52:00] rainbow LGBT moment And why, uh, probably would have been when I went to. So it was now a shift, but it used to be the very first one I think was quilt bag. Um, and that was my last year of high school where I just finished high school, and it was kind of a chance to finally be around a group of queer people and actually get to be me not kind of restricted by you know, where I was or who I was around you. Can you describe [00:52:30] what that experience was like? Uh, a bit of an eye opener, like I always knew queer people existed, but kind of meeting a large group of people my own age. It was like, Oh, we are actually, you know, from kind of all walks of life and like we were all there with being queer and common. But we're all so different as well. Yeah. Now, finally, if you had a magic wand and you could wave it at anything or anyone, who would you or what would you wave it at and and why? Uh, [00:53:00] it's a very good question. Uh, probably just the country as a whole and kind of make everyone be some form of, like, question some part about their identity, whether it be kind of their religion or even their gender. Like we all have different things that make up who we are. And just because someone's trans doesn't mean that's their whole life. And like, you know, we go grocery shopping like everyone else, so we, like, do normal things as well. And I think a lot of people don't necessarily realise that, [00:53:30] You know, just because we have this part of our identity, it's not all we are. Yeah.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089839
TITLE: Will Hansen
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VOICES: Will Hansen
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 2010s; About Face: Jewel's Darl (tv, 1985); Alex Bertie; Aotearoa New Zealand; Archives New Zealand; Aro valley; Bibliography on Homosexuality in New Zealand; Broadsheet (magazine); Caitlyn Jenner; Carmen Rupe; Chelsea Manning; Chrissy Witoko; Christine Young; Circle (magazine); Cuba Street; Cybele Locke; Diana Ross; Express (magazine); Gender Minorities Aotearoa (GMA); Georgina Beyer; Gillian Cox; Glee moment; Hedesthia (Wellington); I'm Coming Out (song); Jack Trolove; King of the Ball (title); Laverne Cox; Leonie Neill; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Louise Pearman; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Marama Davidson; Minorities Trust; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; Māori; NZ On Screen; National Library of New Zealand; Ngā Taonga Sound and Vision; Pride precinct; Queer history of New Zealand research guide (web resource); Rainbow Crossing (Wellington); Roger Swanson; Susan Stryker; Susan Xtabay; TERF Watch Aotearoa (Facebook group); TVNZ (Television New Zealand); Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington; Time (magazine); Tony Millett; Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); Transformation (group); Transgender Studies Quarterly; Ty Turner; Weir House; Wellington; Will Hansen; Zena Campbell; aliens; archives; assimilation; bathrooms; bisexual; cctv; closet; clothing; cross-gender identities; death; digital archive; discrimination; facebook. com; faggot; femininity; friends; gay; gay liberation movement; gender diverse; gender dysphoria; gender euphoria; gender identity; gender perversion; gender visibility; google. com; heroism; hex; hidden history; history; homosexual law reform; identity; indigenous peoples; instagram. com; intern; internet; intersex; language; lesbian; media; medicalisation; mental health; newsletter; non-binary; oral history; pathologisation; peer interviewing; police; politics; posters; privilege; pronouns; race; racism; relationships; research; safety; sex work; sexuality; single sex schools; snowflake; social history; social media; street queen; suicide; support; takatāpui; teara. govt. nz; trans; trans children; trans families; trans man; trans politics; trans visibility; transexual; transgender; transphobic violence; transvestite; tumblr. com; twitter. com; validation; violence; visibility; womyn-born womyn; youth; youtube. com
DATE: 16 September 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Will Hansen talks about what drives his passion for LGBTI rainbow history.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Will your LinkedIn online resume, uh, begins. My dream is to write the histories of queer New Zealanders. In particular, I would love to P the histories of transgender New Zealanders. And I'm wondering, where does that dream of writing queer history come from? Um, I guess it's just like a really personal kind of goal for me in that. Like when I. I kind of started to realise I was trans about 2015 or end of 2014, [00:00:30] 2015. And before that I thought I was a lesbian. And when I thought I was a lesbian, I'd kind of gone online and I'd done some reading around it, and I started reading about homosexual law reform and, um, like, different like in the circle and all those kind of lesbian groups and clubs and stuff. And so, like that history seemed to be there. But then when I realised I was Trans and I kind of started looking for trans histories and stuff, there was just nothing. Nothing out there there was kind of a TIA. There's [00:01:00] a TIA page on gender diversity. Um, and through that, I found out about, um, Carmen and Georgina Baer and watched their documentaries on NZ on screen. Um, but other than that, there was no, like, writings about it or anything. And then finally, when I got the opportunity to study it in class at the end of last year, um, there was just there was just nothing on it. Nothing at all. Um, anywhere. No articles. There was, uh, Louise PiS Masters [00:01:30] thesis, Um, on cross gender identities, Pre like from, uh, 19 06 to 1950 I think. And that was, like, the only thing that was written about, like, trans people as trans people, not as cross dresses or homosexual cross dresses or anything. And it just really frustrated me. And I just really wanted to know. Um, yeah, because there's obviously so much history that's there. Um, that and yeah, it just just frustrating, I guess. Yeah. Why? Why do [00:02:00] you think those histories haven't been written or told? I think that, um, part of it is that the like trans rights movements and things have kind of always been shunted aside, I think, by the more general gay and lesbian movement. Um, and I think that alongside that the academic study has also been like put in the shadows as well. Um, and I think that [00:02:30] it's like I think so much of trans studies focuses on trans identities instead of trans stories. And that, like there's this whole like preoccupation with gender diversity, gender, perversion, gender, you know, um, all all the big questions about gender and stuff, which I think are interesting, but it's not all there is to it. You know what the Trans people do in their daily lives? What, uh, Trans poli, What's trans politics? What's Trans communities? And there's been none [00:03:00] of that kind of, Yeah, II, I guess, as well in New Zealand. Specifically, um, it's quite a small a small, small country, smaller community, and it's only kind of just starting to become a thing in like the United States. Even so, with Susan ST Striker and Joanne Mayo, it's writing histories over there, and the transgender studies quarterly, I think, was 2014 that that started. And trans identity is generally, I guess, with people like, um, Caitlyn, Jenner and, uh, Levan [00:03:30] Cox. That's only kind of, I think, I. I don't know if this is just because it's only in the last four years that I've realised, really, that I've been Trans. But it seems to me like in general, only in the last four or five years, that's really come to the forefront of of the conversation, like transgender people in general and like bathroom bills and all that kind of thing. So I think, like there's just not been as much of an interest that's been focused on marriage, equality and those kind of struggles. But now that we're focusing on trans struggles, a bit more trans histories [00:04:00] and stories are starting to come out a bit more so with your own journey. How were you coming to the the realisation of of kind of a trans identity? Was this through online, or was it through kind of, um, real world interactions with with people? Um, I think it was like it was a mix of both because I went to in an all girls high school and that kind of felt like quite a bit of a a bubble in a lot of ways, because I knew that there was something that I just didn't There was [00:04:30] something that I was uncomfortable with, and I thought that it was my sexuality and that was definitely part of it. Um, and that was kind of easier to identify because it was easier to articulate. And there's more stuff out there, and all the girls are talking about all the boys they've got crushes on. And I just didn't Didn't, you know, didn't get that? But you don't talk about gender in that same way, especially in that all girls environment, because I guess there was that consensus. They all felt like girls, most of them. So there wasn't any need to talk about it. But then as soon as I went [00:05:00] to the hall in first year and I like it sounds weird, But until then, I hadn't actually really interacted with boys my age since I was about 10, and getting to kind of, um, invest like explore my gender a bit more and moving out of home was a big thing. And I finally got to I started trying on different clothes that suited me a bit more, and like I said as well, like, I feel like it was kind of I think 2014 was when there was that time cover with Laverne Cox, The transgender tipping point and stuff and all that stuff [00:05:30] started coming out and everyone in the hall was watching the Caitlyn Jenner do and stuff or whatever the interview that she did. And so it all kind of like I was starting to notice it all a lot more and and online definitely helped. I've been on tumblr tumblr dot com and that had, like, just people talking about gender and Trans and and YouTubers I listened to a lot of Alex Birdie and, um, Ty Turner. There were two one's British ones American YouTubers and talking about their stuff. And I was like, Oh, that makes [00:06:00] sense. I'm starting to get it. And so all those things kind of all happened all at once, uh, at the start of 2015, and I just had this major Oh, I'm not a girl. Whoops, that was That was wrong that whole time. Yeah, so So you have the realisation. I mean, how does that kind of play out internally for you? So, like, I guess I kind of I guess for me it was just because I, I think Alex Bertie, the youtuber was the first YouTube video. As I started watching, [00:06:30] I stumbled across him and I was thinking about him and his journey a lot. And I started thinking about my own gender a lot, and just it became more and more every day. I couldn't stop thinking about it until it was all I thought about all day, every day. And I had that kind of same process that happened to me when I thought that I was a lesbian. I was like, became something that just was consuming my thoughts. It was all I could think about. Am I really trans? Am I really queer? How are people going to react? And I kind [00:07:00] of because I'd kind of already done it once before with the sexuality thing. I kind of realised. Well, I'm thinking about it so much. It must mean that it's a thing, you know, like if you're thinking if you're so preoccupied with this question, my transit probably means you are a trans, Um, and so I kind of started. Then I started, uh, telling a couple of friends at the hall, and I was like, I don't know quite who I am yet, but I know I'm not a girl. And they were like, That's cool. And that just kind of they were really good at giving me the space to, um, keep thinking about [00:07:30] it and and to let them know when I was like, Oh, I'm I'm not a girl. I don't know what I am yet, though. And that was really nice to know that I There were people who kind of could keep up with my internal thought process, If that makes sense, like instead of having to figure it all out and have one I've figured it out. This is who I am. I could kind of Yeah, explore it a bit more that way. Yeah, And when you're talking about Hall. So this is University Hall? Yeah. Yeah, I went to warehouse in 2015. That was [00:08:00] really fun. That was good. Yeah, and they were. So they were so supportive. And I kind of I think it was about April when I first told someone like, Oh, I'm not a girl. And then it was about I think it was about August when I was like, Yeah, no, I think I'm a trans masculine person. I want to be called. Well, um, and the day I kind of came out to everyone or my group of friends, and I put it on the little we had a little Facebook page for our floor in the hall, and I put a I just you know, I wanna use he him pronouns Now, I put a little [00:08:30] link to the YouTube, uh, a video. Um, I'm coming out the Diana Ross and had all that, and I got great response. Everyone was super supportive. And then the next day, we had our warehouse ball, and I got crowned king of the ball by the IRA S, and that was such like, a gleam. They were Everyone was just like that was, like, the epitome of support. Like, you can't get much better than that. Um, so everyone was super super cool about that, and that was still I hadn't realised. I didn't, um, figured out what I wanted my name to be. So I told them all. I'm a guy. I'm using [00:09:00] him. Him pronouns, But I'm still using my old name. So they were, like, really good at handling that which, like, is a bit confusing. I know like when you're trying to form a sentence and using pronouns right with my old name, which was very feminine. Um, so yeah, so that was just a wonderful, wonderful time. And yeah, and at the same time, you were obviously also having a hunger for trying to find, um, Trans people in the past. Yeah, I think I think, actually, Yeah. And to answer your earlier question Well, I think part of that is [00:09:30] from just like not having any trans friends and wanting some kind of community to fit myself in. And I've always been someone who's been really interested in history and in stories and stuff, and I think, like, I'm quite a like a romanticising things a lot, I guess so. Wanting to kind of fit myself into that broader historical narrative and knowing, like Like where I like where, like my people have come from and the battles that Trans people have thought fought and what [00:10:00] ways those need to be continued and that kind of thing. And and just like because Yeah, and because I didn't have, uh, any trans friends, Really. Or maybe I had one from from high school, but they were still in Auckland, and I started to meet a couple of Trans people at uni. But, um, no one that I really properly clicked with until the year after. So I just felt quite even, though, even though everyone was so supportive, all those people at the hall and stuff and there was no one that I quite clicked with who I quite, you know, understood how [00:10:30] I felt about gender in the same way until, like a good year after that. So I think it was It was that as well, just wanting to and and some kind of sense of validation. I think of like knowing that, you know, Trans people have always been here and we've always been, um, it it's not It's not some new snowflake thing. And and and you know, when my parents, uh, they weren't so good at the start and knowing that other people have been there and dealt with that and dealt with a lot worse and that they've, you know, the the movement keeps [00:11:00] pushing forward and so I can keep pushing forward as well, that kind of yeah, one of the, um, things I've found quite tricky to cope with in terms of say, like, um, gay history Is that when I look back, um, at at, uh, some gay lives in the past Often, um it was, like, really hard. You know, they they were facing a lot of discrimination and stuff. And then, um, for me trying not to take on board that either that hate or [00:11:30] that hurt. Um, when you're looking back at the past in terms of trans history, I mean, do you have a similar thing? Definitely. I guess we'll talk about it a little bit later, too. But when I was doing my interview for my honours thesis, um, talking to my interviewee, who came out in 1976 as Trans and hearing all her stories, and I didn't like, I kind of very consciously tried to focus it on, like trans communities and [00:12:00] relationships and all that kind of more external, like within the Trans Group as well. I didn't want to focus on, uh, what public thought, all that kind of thing. I wanted to, you know, not focus, I guess. I guess I wanted to kind of which was a bit silly in hindsight, but I didn't want to focus on all the distressing kind of things. But the topic of suicide came up a lot in that you without me having prompted at all, um, and just mental health in general and all that kind of thing. And I kind of realised like, Well, that's so [00:12:30] integral to the story and the fact that it just kept coming up even though it wasn't even asking about it And just that whole history of, um, like mental health crisis for trans people and how that's such a old thing like that's not a new that's not a new problem and probably, you know, it was worse. I think back in the 19 seventies of the period that I was studying, um and like that was really distressing. And I think part of the reason I kind of didn't ask her more questions about it was because hearing it, I didn't you know, like it's I've had my own struggles with [00:13:00] trans stuff as well, and I didn't necessarily, like, feel like I was a bit unprepared for it and having to talk about that kind of thing. And, uh, yeah, so that was That was really hard and it was hard having someone sitting in front of me telling me those stories and seeing her get emotional and that kind of thing. But equally listening to like Georgina Baer on the other pride NZ interviews is is really hard. But I think that it's also like, important to hear it, because otherwise I mean, that's not the full picture if you don't. And [00:13:30] it makes the other stories that they tell, like, have so much more kind of weight because you see that background of of the hard things and then the triumphs become even more triumph than I suppose you really did Throw yourself in, uh, to kind of queer, uh, research in 2017 when when you got an internship at the National Library, Uh, and you produced, uh, the history of New Zealand Research Guide. Tell me about that. That [00:14:00] was really that was really cool. That was, um, so I signed up for it was like a class at uni Uh, the B, a internship class. Um, and you went to, uh, classes every Tuesday up at the uni, and they taught you how to be a good intern, and then the other three days. Um, I spent down at the National Library, and I was I was so lucky that I got that placement that I did. And Roger Swanson, um, was my mentor there, Uh, and that was just It was so fantastic. And the fact that they let me do something that I was like, really interested in, um, [00:14:30] it was really exciting and just getting to like in history class. We don't really talk that much about, like, the archives and the museums and all those kind of like libraries and all the processes that go behind the gathering of the information that is being presented to historians. Um, and that was so interesting. That was really, really cool to learn about. And everyone there was so lovely. And it was actually because, like before then, I like every time I talk to someone like about what I wanna do, I wanna, you know, learn about trans [00:15:00] histories and queer histories, and he'll be like, Oh, but there's no such thing or there's none of those. There's not that out there. Why would you want to learn about that? There's What's the What's? Why is that important? But then going to the National Library. And they've given me this task, which is to write about and, you know, the research guy for queer history. That was really, really that put a fire in my be a little bit. So how how how do you go about finding sources? How do you go about finding collections? Because, as you say, a lot of this, uh, [00:15:30] that these histories are either hidden, they haven't been written about or they're kind of, um, masked and and and old language. I guess there was a lot more out there than I realised. Um, in terms of like, there's, like, the pride website, um, the lesbian and gay archives. Uh, they have so much stuff that I didn't realise. And, um and I realised as well, like, Yeah, I've been using the wrong language because I think amongst my age group, [00:16:00] there's a really stubborn insistence on not using transsexual, and we're queer, and we're transgender and gender queer, And I didn't I. I was never super stubborn about it. But those were the words I was using because that was the background I had. And then I realised, well, no, actually, this is People were using transsexual, and they still are, and they're still happy. That's the way they identify, and it's not a bad thing. And using those search terms and, um, I, uh, there was I've forgotten his name. Someone wrote a, uh, index of of homosexual [00:16:30] or, uh, like of queer, um, sources. Uh, I should find I could find it in or something. But he, uh it was this really thick book and that had a lot of stuff in it That was really helpful. Um, I, I don't know. I just did Lots and lots of googling. Lots of, uh, Roger gave me lots of help. Um, like knowing other people. And, um, I'd already started. That was I got that internship right after I'd done my New Zealand Social history paper. And that was when I first started looking [00:17:00] at trans histories. So I had already done a little bit of research and found things like, um uh, like like, uh, all the resources down at and that kind of thing. It it's interesting you talk about doing a lot of googling because that actually that brings up the point that, uh, not everything has been digitised. Not everything has been indexed online. And so there are probably a whole lot of hidden things in archives that haven't had the attention that maybe they should have had. Yeah, and that's, [00:17:30] um, like something that Roger Roger Swanson is, um, really aware of, I think, and he keeps finding stuff, um, that he brings up to me and it's un catalogued yet it's not catalogued yet, So, um, that's and I know that they're like, it's it's There's only so much manpower that that lesbian and gay archives have that they can, you know, be cataloguing stuff and putting stuff online. Um, but yeah, there's definitely there's so much out there, and I think as well, um, there's a lot out there that is kind of [00:18:00] like Aist historical, and that is not necessarily thought of it, because it doesn't fit into the whole Western history mindset of of this is rational history. It maybe can't be backed up by other, you know, rational sources or whatever it's people talking about, um, how they how they think about gender and things, and and the I know, um, the, uh, trans sexual activist organisation in the United States they, uh, believed [00:18:30] in aliens, um, contacting them and that they were that aliens would help further trans rights. And they once, uh, put a hex on on a a turfy lesbian, Um, in the 19 seventies and all those kind of things that, like historians kind of, I think ignore because it's how you can't write it about them in history because you can only write they believed in aliens because you don't have any sources to say. You know, the the aliens, they were having contact with aliens. You can't write that, But that's what they thought. [00:19:00] And you immediately kind of take away that authority. So I think there's a lot of that kind of information out there, which is just hard to know what to do with how to catalogue it, how to write about it in history. Um, and I think that that comes through in oral histories as well. A lot. Um, yeah, so that's that's there's so many so many different things to think about and and and in terms of oral history, now you've you've done a couple of oral histories. How was that for you? Because doing an oral history is quite different from, say, doing [00:19:30] this kind of interview where it's, you know, maybe 40 minutes. Oral histories are quite a lot more in depth. Yeah. Oh, it was so much fun. It was just really, really cool. Uh, I felt it felt like like I mean, it's a real privilege to be able to hear people speak about their histories and things. And, um particularly I didn't interview Jack Troo and I that was for in my oral history class this year. And, um, he was speaking just about how he conceptualised his gender and, um, [00:20:00] how he felt like he transitioned in order to express his femininity better, which is so contrary to the, you know, narrative. Obviously, if you're a trans guy, you're transitioning to be more masculine. But no, it was the opposite. And that really resonated with me because I realised that's how I felt. And I hadn't heard anyone articulate it that way. So, like, just on a really personal level, doing these oral histories has been really, really amazing. And And when I was talking about, like, a historical information, a lot of what I spoke about with Jack was very he was talking about, um, how [00:20:30] he he was. Really? He's really poetic when he speaks really beautiful in saying, um, how he feels like, uh, gender is is getting to experience death while we're alive and all these kind of concepts which are hard to know how to put in my research essays. But but, um, but I think it's so important, and I'm trying hard to and and, uh, all all that kind of that kind of thing, that, um, yeah, that's not that I. I don't know if I have the words to articulate [00:21:00] it. That kind of thing you briefly mentioned, um, turfy lesbian. And could you just describe to me what? What turfy lesbian? Um, so TFT ER F. That means, uh, trans exclusionary radical feminist, which I think is a bit of a misnomer because they're not feminists. And getting to and allowing them to call themselves feminists, even trans exclusionary radical ones, um, is not is not fair, But, um, [00:21:30] I think there there's a history just, um, in in Western queer history, I guess, of lesbians who feel that trans women are actually men and that to have trans women in lesbian spaces is to have men in lesbian spaces and that that's not on because they have male energies and they socialised as male and then that trans men are just poor little lesbians who have been given all these hormones and, oh, no. And so, yeah, that that's, um, [00:22:00] that I think. And I think that kind of attitude has come through in a lot of the history that's been written. And I think that's why so many Trans, uh, trans men are dismissed as or written down as lesbians when really they've got their whole lives saying I'm a man and then a lesbian historian comes along and is like, Oh, I actually know they were just a cross dresser. No, they they were they they were a lesbian. Well, they didn't use the word lesbian. They used the word man. You can't be a man and a lesbian. Well, maybe some people, but [00:22:30] they don't think that that's how they would have seen it themselves. Um, yeah, and so I think it's had a big influence on, um, academic and popular thought this lesbian mindset and the it was in Wellington over the last, uh, six months or so or even longer. Um, there have been some actions, um, that have drawn media attention around kind of turfs and, uh, the response [00:23:00] to to turfs can you describe some of the things that have been happening in Wellington? Yeah. So recently, a bunch of, um, posters and things have been put up that have been saying things like women shouldn't be a shouldn't be pressured to be attracted to men, which it's like, No, they shouldn't be. But it's kind of that, like, uh, soft intro to more radical ideas and then, um, pushing the idea that obviously trans women are in and that lesbians shouldn't be pressure to be attracted to [00:23:30] trans women. And it's like no one's pressuring you to be attracted to trans women. All we're asking for is that trans women can use the bathrooms Or, you know, trans women aren't excluded from women's spaces because trans women are women and they should be allowed in women's spaces. Um, but there's Yeah, there's been that, um a lot of those posters going around and then gender minorities, uh, has been really active at putting up counter posters. Um, that say things just like trans women are women and, um, indigenous Trans people [00:24:00] are our and that kind of thing. Um, but it's been sad as well because I've seen lots of those go up, which makes me really happy whenever I see those. But I was walking down Cuba Street yesterday and two of them someone had ripped off the corner. That said, Trans Woman a woman and I was like, These people were awful like they're ripping down Um, so they've been There's a Facebook group called, uh, turf Watch a, um, and gender Minorities have been active on that and, uh, have been sending [00:24:30] posters and stickers to people and, uh, people. I I'm waiting on some to arrive and gonna go stick them up. And, um, it's really nice to see the counter, the M MA and, like people like Marama Davidson from the Green Party have been really vocal, uh, at standing up against the turfs, which is really good. Um, and I do think there's a lot more of the anti turfs than there are turfs, but it's still just it's so draining and sad to see that these people are still out there and they're really concerned. [00:25:00] Apparently, they're concerned about trans Children and pumping them full of hormones. And and trans Children don't really exist. There's only men and girl boys and girls, and you're confusing them and all that kind of, um, all that kind of thing, Which I guess I think that that's like the consequence of visibility, right? Is the backlash and yeah, yeah, I was gonna ask. I mean, why now? Why? Why is why is this happening now? I'm not 100% sure. There was something on the Facebook page that was talking [00:25:30] about, uh I think they were saying, There's there's kind of these three women who are behind it. And apparently it's someone's personal vendetta. Someone just, uh some. I think someone called them out on on Twitter, I think. Or something. Uh, if they'd said something that wasn't appropriate, that was transphobic. Someone called them out, and now they're trying to organise against it. Um, and I? I don't know. I don't I don't know the specifics of it, but I know there was a woman born women festival for a while for a few years, [00:26:00] and that got shut down. I think in the last few years I'm not sure, though, um, because they were excluding trans women, and there were, uh, there was Yeah, there was anger about that. And so the festival got shut down. And I think a lot of people are angry about about that which I I understand. Like it's amazing to have a space where women can feel comfortable and free. But it should be for all women, not just for some women into, uh, reiterate The idea that Trans women [00:26:30] aren't women is just such a violent thing to do. And yeah. So I Yeah, there's, I think I think there's, like, some little like, personal politics going on that I'm not really aware of, because I'm I think I'm a bit young, and I'm still kind of coming into the queer community, you know, but yeah. And what's your perception of, uh, I, I guess Looking at both discrimination and support, uh, for, um, kind of for the trans community within the the wider queer community. Do you? I mean, [00:27:00] is there support and discrimination going on there? Yeah, I definitely I definitely think so. I think, um, there's a lot like I, I think in terms of my age group generally, people are supportive. I think trans is almost a cool thing now, which in some ways is good but in other ways. Like, um, I have a lot of friends who study at Massey and or people I know who study at Massey, and they are doing things. Uh, like I've got this gender neutral [00:27:30] clothes that I'm making. I'm doing a gender neutral photo shoot, but all they're doing is getting their male friends to put dresses on and their female friends put suits on, which just reiterates the idea again that trans women and men in dresses and and and they don't understand they're not talking to trans people about their ideas. And they don't understand the history of those ideas and what it is that they're saying when they put those kind of things out there, which is frustrating. And, um so I don't know, I haven't counted an awful lot of outright discrimination from other [00:28:00] queer people within my, um, my kind of group. And I've been lucky. I haven't just in terms of queer spaces. Generally, I haven't encountered much resistance, which is really nice, but I do know I was I was warned that there was someone at the national library. I don't I don't think I don't know if this is true for someone. I mean, I haven't encountered whoever this person potentially is but who was not on board with trans people. And I was like, Oh, and I was nervous about that, but it never happened. They were [00:28:30] all lovely. But I know that there's there's people out there. Um, but I I haven't encountered them, I guess. And when you say your age group Oh, yeah, What kind of age group are you talking about? So I'm 21. Um, So I guess, Yeah, people kind of like, I guess, 18 to 24. I most of the people that I talk with and stuff just getting back to the, uh the the Queer History of New Zealand Research Guide. [00:29:00] Uh, you mentioned on that page, uh, that there are some either hidden or underrepresented communities. Um, that that you couldn't find information about what kind of communities are are you talking about? Um, the intersex community was the big one, which I felt I was Really I would love to find more information and make that more accessible for people because I think, uh, with people like Marie Mitchell, [00:29:30] who's an insect activist? Uh um, doing all the work that they do. They do such amazing work and they're so hard working. But like I think I think there's a documentary about them and there's their, uh, website, and that's kind of it. And there's nothing kind of written about it. Um, also, it's hard to find information about, um, other like sexualities beyond gay and lesbian as well. Um, like bisexual? There was a little bit, but [00:30:00] not much. Um, and in terms of oh, and then I guess the other big one that I'm missing is just like, um, history, indigenous, queer history, uh, a queer history of Of generally non-white people in New Zealand. Um, there's there are there's some I've forgotten exactly what it's called, but there's like a a blog, which is about Asian queer experiences and that kind of thing, which is which is cool. But there's not an awful lot. I think that, like, explicitly addresses [00:30:30] the intersection of race and queerness, which I think is a big, big, big, big thing that's missing. Um, yeah, those would be the main one, and and I mean, there's all sorts of gender identities, like like when you're searching like we were saying before, you have to use the word transsexual if you're looking for histories. Um, but now that there's more things, uh, coming out there but there's not much there for, like, non-binary identities and stuff. Um, yeah. So but mostly mostly, uh, like, uh, non-white, uh, [00:31:00] histories of people in history, As I'd say, the ones that I tried hardest to find and couldn't. Well, I guess one way of addressing that is to become part of an organisation that is charged with with capturing, um, all our queer histories, which is the Lesbian and gay archives of New Zealand. And you became a board member, uh, earlier this year. Yeah, that was really that was really cool. I was, um because Roger Swanson is [00:31:30] on the board, and he was my mentor at the National Library, and he was like, Oh, would you like to come along to a meeting? And I was like, Oh, absolutely. And then at this meeting, they were saying, Oh, you know, we really need new board members and we really need board members who who are Trans and and also young. And I was sitting there and I was like, Oh, that's me um and I didn't think I kind of I was like, Oh, wouldn't that be cool? But I didn't actually seriously think that they they'd want me on the board. But then Roger came to me the next day and he said, Ask me if I. I wanted to, [00:32:00] uh wanted to join in and that's been that's been really interesting. I'm so, so grateful that they want me to be a part of it and, um, I just go to I don't do too much really. I just go to board meetings. I've been to a couple of working bees and stuff, but in terms of actually like the actual organisation I've been to, I go to. We have board meetings every the first Tuesday of every second month. Um and I've been to those and there's been there's a lot of, like talk about financial matters and stuff which I'm not very clued up on. I know finances [00:32:30] and all that, Um but it's so interesting to hear them talk about, um, queer archives and how to preserve histories how to promote the archives and promote those histories and my role. Um, we've only just decided, uh, is going to be focusing on queer youth engagement. Uh, one thing I'd really love to do, but I don't know what the like policies and stuff are behind it yet, but which this summer, I'm hoping to um I'm hoping to get involved in would be making something like an instagram for [00:33:00] the archives just to because I think that'd be a great way to get people my age and younger, um, involved in it and show what the collections are, and especially because the website is kind of hard to search. And it's when you're new to it. You want to be seeing you're used to seeing the photos and everything. You want to know what it looks like. Um, so I think that would be a really cool thing to to try and do. Um, yeah, and And I've been telling all my friends about it. I always tell all my friends about it, and I get I updated my [00:33:30] facebook to say that I was a board member because it sounds so cool. And obviously because I'm proud about it and stuff. Um, and and yeah, uh, you know, all those people who said, Oh, I'm gonna make it out now I'm a board member. Not that they know exactly what it's about. But anyway, I updated that on Facebook, and all these people were liking and commenting on it. And now I get all these messages and they're saying, Oh, do you have videos of this or do you have photos of that? And I'm like, we should go to the archives. I can. I'll send. I'll send a link to this. This might be a good a good source, but [00:34:00] they they think I've got it. Got it on my laptop. That's not quite how it works, but but, yeah, that's been really cool. So I'm hoping to, um, and once this this summary, I think I'm gonna I've got a couple of ideas that I wanna work up and and propose stuff to the to the rest of the book. Yeah. So why do you think it is important to have a community archive or a niche archive in this case, looking at kind of, um uh, queer history? Uh, verse, [00:34:30] uh, something like a or a national library, which collects a broad range of things. I think that there's just, like so many kind of specific things that, uh, like, uh, problems or or um Dinas that are specific to queer histories and queer like archival information that that requires that kind of specific attention. And I think it's It's just it's just so important to, um know that there's a place like it. It makes it feel [00:35:00] more important. It gives it that space that like, Oh, there's a whole archives This is the lesbian and gay archives. It's got the queer histories. It's It gives it that sense of importance, I think, which is really, which is really necessary. Um and yeah, uh, and I think if you've not got people specifically looking for it and people who have got that, if they're part of the community and we've got that information, then it's easy for it to get pushed aside, or that, you know. But if there's a group that's constantly dedicated to looking [00:35:30] for it, then it's not gonna go away any any time soon or will be pushed to the back. Yeah, so just thinking in terms of like, uh, your own opinion Now, in terms of what are some of the biggest challenges facing, uh, an organisation like, what would the what would those be? I think one of the big issues like we touched on for is how to categorise a lot of this information. Um, in light of new vocabulary that we have to explain things. But, you know, you can't know if someone would have [00:36:00] identified as non binary and all that kind of thing. So there's all those kind of kind of challenges which I think, uh oh, we can overcome. And And I think it just takes a little bit of thinking about it and sitting down and, uh, that kind of thing, I think resources and things. It's, uh because I know that, um, the National Library only has a certain amount of space, and it's housed at the National Library. And, um, especially digital. Uh uh, having a space to store digital things online. Um, and, uh, [00:36:30] one of the big things is like, how does how do we preserve things like Facebook? Groups like this turf watch group or I'm part of a group, um, on Facebook. Uh, which is a secret group, uh, for trans guys. And there's so much information on there, and that's been that's been a huge help to me. And there's so like, we're talking about how which doctors are the best to go to. People ask, Oh, what barbers do you go to What are gonna be? Pardon me. Pardon me. Where [00:37:00] Where can I go that they're gonna be nice and, uh, all sorts of information? Um, like almost quasi counselling and stuff goes on. So it's all, really there's some really personal stuff on there. Um, and I know that, like with Facebook, there's just the problems with Facebook generally and trying to archive that kind of thing. But like all those people who there's like 300 of us in that group, and you'd have to get all of the information and and there's all that sensitive stuff, but it's so important, and it's such a big thing. [00:37:30] And it's such a huge way that, um, that the Trans guys in New Zealand are communicating. There's over 303 100 of us on there and it's active every day. And how do we How can we preserve that because I think it's so important. Um, so, yeah, I think I think that's one of the biggest biggest changes which I think will become even bigger is just preserving all those digital digital, uh, communities and And things are moving so fast nowadays, I mean, and and just in terms of actions or reactions, uh, you know, I think [00:38:00] of Twitter and and, you know, the the amount of information that's coming in. Um I mean, how do you How do you catalogue that stuff? How do you How do you How do you preserve it? Beats me. I don't I don't know. I think III I, um I I have a really big collection on my laptop of Screenshots of Things, um which I don't know if that would ever be able to be the kind of thing that's archived, but I think it's just important to to have it have it there. And I, I don't know. I think I I would love [00:38:30] to learn more about about about this because I think that I think I think that's a That's something that I kind of learned this year last year and just the importance of archiving which I think is missed out when you do history in high school, at bachelor's level at uni and how, like all of these challenges and stuff, I think it's just important that we keep learning about it at all levels, not just at the higher levels, which takes us nicely on to your current research project. Tell me about that. Um [00:39:00] so I'm in my honours year of history, which is my fourth year of study at Uni at Victoria University. Um, and my honours thesis, which is just 10,000 words, uh, is on transgender communities in Wellington in the 19 seventies. Um, and my supervisor is Sabella luck, and she's so cool. Um, and she does a lot of oral history stuff, So she's been really, really helpful there. And, um, yeah, that's so that's so the big thing that that I found in the 19 seventies in [00:39:30] Wellington was that it seems to me that there were kind of two major communities, Um, and so when I say trans community, I always mean like in the plural, because there's always there's never just one trans community, queer community or anything, right? It's always there's always multiple Um, And whenever there's a community of some people that automatically means that others are excluded. So there's all those kinds of tensions and things, and, um, but anyway, so I found I think that the two major kind of sites of community [00:40:00] for trans people in Wellington in the 19 seventies were the what I call the night scene. Um, which is people like Carmen, Carmen Rupe and and Georgina Bio. Um, the person I interviewed, uh, all those kind of people who were active in the nightclubs and and, um, kind of the most marginalised people in society. Really? The, uh, most of them are trans women. Most of them are women of colour. Most of them are. A lot of them are six workers. Um, and [00:40:30] they have a very, you know, specific relationship with the public with public spaces and that the public don't want them in their spaces. So I think the 19 seventies, when Trans women of colour started or I don't know if about started, but they were taking control, putting, getting public spaces in their own hands. Carmen and her nightclubs, Chrissy to all those kinds of people creating spaces for themselves that were not only safe spaces and social spaces where trans people were meeting other trans [00:41:00] people. Trans people were discovering trans people for the first but also important sites for economic reasons, you know, giving giving themselves an income and and a way to stay alive. In that sense, um, and then the other major group, um, that I found was the kind of membership only club. So, uh, there was a group called Founded in 1972 by Christine Young in lower hut. Um, and that was primarily it was started for married heterosexual [00:41:30] transvestites. Um, but then very quickly, they became more inclusive of of transsexuals and transvestites. And it was kind of it seems to me like it was about 50 50 transvestite transsexuals and a lot of them, uh, started or thought that they were transvestite and then realised they were transsexual and vice versa. Um, but that group, uh, seems to be predominantly, if not entirely white and predominantly middle class, middle upper class. Um, [00:42:00] and they were very much keen to talk to, um, like, uh, people in the medical and legal, uh, institutions. And they would sit down and have conversations with counselling services and all of that kind of thing with the police, Um, and talk about what they can do for trans people. But it was very much they were not at all like the people from the night scene, and they did not want to be associated with the queens of the night scene. They were not sex workers. [00:42:30] They were sexually normative. They were, um they were very respectable citizens, and they were decent and hardworking. And and, uh, they weren't anything like the sex workers on on the street scene. And that kind of that's very much, uh, what they what they talk about in their newsletters and things. Yeah. I mean, that's really fascinating in terms of, uh, the the whole idea of assimilation to to to be seen as, um, just [00:43:00] part of mainstream society, Uh, versus actually just just being yourself. Talk to me about that because, I mean, that still plays out with a lot of people, doesn't it? Yeah, definitely. I mean, I even feel that in my personal life, like am I am I being an assimilationist by, you know, just, uh, working within history and that kind of thing But I think in terms of the 19 seventies in Wellington, I definitely I mean, it's I. I do feel for them in the membership [00:43:30] only group because they just want to be accepted, and that's the way they were going about it. But equally they were very derogatory to a lot of the street queens and things. Um, they I, I don't think they they my interviewee asked to join them and was turned away, and she was told that it was because she was transsexual and it was only for transvestites. And that's what she that's what she she was. She was like, OK, she didn't realise that. Actually, there were a lot of transsexuals in there. It wasn't because she wasn't a transvestite. [00:44:00] It was because she was Maori and because she was a sex worker. And so they were definitely. I think that it's the, um, the whole idea of of portraying trans people as respectable citizens that relies on that process of secondary marginalisation and um distinguishing themselves as better by comparison to this other group. And so any kind of, uh gains that are made through that assimilationist politics is made to benefit only that group and [00:44:30] the people who need it the most are left on the margins. So I think, like and I know um oh, what what's her name? Um, Chelsea Manning was talking about There was a NZ Express the Gay Express article about that, and she was talking about, uh, how that plays out today. And I read that, and I thought, I think it's always it's always been there. Um, there's always been that tension. Um and I think I mean, definitely there's something to be said for talking to, uh, like the police [00:45:00] talking to counselling, uh, going They went to a lot of universities and stuff, and I think that's still a good thing to do, but it needs to be inclusive of everyone. And it needs to There also needs to be that more. I think, like direct action alongside because Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I think I think the people from the membership only clubs like their whole lives before they they were kind of had so much privilege, their whole lives and have had [00:45:30] institutions look after them and have never had a problem with them until they kind of realise their sense of gender transgression. And so they've never had a problem with these things. So why not work with them? Um, and kind of try and neutralise the more non normative aspects of their personality versus people like Georgina Bao when she's talking about it, She's, you know, never been supported by these institutions. So it makes no sense to try and work with them if they're not even gonna listen. Yeah. So how did you find out [00:46:00] the information about the group? Um, they have they published newsletters from 1974 onwards. Um, and that is with the lesbian and gay archives. Um, and they in 1976 1 of the members of called Gillian Cox She was transsexual and her wife, Margaret. They made another organisation called Transformation and Transformation. Um, also have newsletters and documents in Lisbon and gay archives. And so my research on them predominantly, [00:46:30] um, came from those two sources. And then there was a member of called, uh, Leonie Neil, and she was really active in the 19 nineties. Um, and she did lots of interviews with broadsheet and, uh, some women's magazines in the Australia and stuff. Um, and so and she talks a fair bit about that kind of thing. And she also did some research papers with the minorities trust in the 19 nineties. 1991 I think. And she talks a lot [00:47:00] about her experiences back in the seventies. Um, so I got some information from that as well, and that was really useful because in the newsletters, they actually they only talk about race once and in the 19 seventies, at least I read every single copy. They only mentioned race once, and it was to say, one of our members is, um, conversing with AAA Negro, um, transvestite, Negro transsexual in the United States. That's right. She's talking to a coloured, you know, TV and I was like, Well, [00:47:30] that's, you know, it's very It's clearly it was a very surprising thing for them. It was not normal for them to do that, and that's the only time they mention it. And they live in New Zealand, and people like Carmen are the most you know, you know, visible trans people, and they'd never talk about Maori trans sexuality or anything. So I was like, That's clearly a big thing. And then later, Leonie Neil talks a lot about how, um she didn't want to. She didn't want to be seen like a queen. She and she talks. You make some kind of remarks which are not [00:48:00] very, uh, she talks. That kind of is very dismissive of of Maori people and and the intersection or kind of struggles that they've faced with race as well coming into the picture. Um, so that was really informative. But also, I'm aware that it's 20 years later that she's writing it. So not sure, but, uh, yeah, I'm not sure. She may not have held those years in the 19 seventies, but it seems likely because of just the absence of it, of talking about race, that that was how most of them [00:48:30] felt. Another thing that that that really comes to mind When when you're talking about kind of just referencing newsletters is sometimes the kind of the, um when information is so sparse. You know, you've only got one source, like, for instance, newsletters. Uh, was that really what they thought? Yeah. Um, you know, you might only that might be one editor's opinion. Yeah, definitely. And, yeah, there's definitely They encouraged members to write in, but it pretty much was mostly like a kind of group [00:49:00] of, of maybe four of them who were writing most of the time. Uh, Christine Young and Joanna Gall, who was the leader of the Auckland chapter and she became the leader when Christine Young passed away and that they are kind of the two main voices that you hear in most of those and it. And I think it's interesting when they write about gay liberation. It becomes really clear that there does seem to have been a kind of, um, a divide between [00:49:30] what the leadership felt and what the kind of rank and file member felt. And there were only ever, I think, Max 100 150 members. But, um, they kind of they write about because I guess that's the one thing that they did, which it does seem kind of radical. They were quite involved in gay liberation, and they went along to a lot of panel discussions and meetings, and they held panels on transsexual and stuff. Um, which is really cool. Uh, and but then the other group the night scene, I don't think were quite as accepted in a lot of ways, so, [00:50:00] you know, But, uh, anyway, so they would They would talk, they would write all these, uh, articles in the newsletter and they would say things like, um, you know, we have to understand that at least 30% of our members have come from gay groups, and and and, you know, even though most of us are heterosexual, we have to understand that they are homosexuals and that it's OK, um, and we have to support our gay brothers and sisters because they live in closets, too, just like we do. And we've got a lot of these shared struggles. Um, so [00:50:30] we need to support them. And so the fact that they sound like they're trying to be persuasive makes me think that there were there were people who needed persuading in the group. So I think that and and they write all the time about how it's OK to be You can be trans and not be homosexual and and it's OK, but but, you know, homosexuals are OK, but but it's OK. We we are mostly heterosexual, and we're mostly married and we've got Children, and we're not. We're not sexually perverse at all. We only do it for femininity, not because of sexual [00:51:00] pleasure and all those kind of conversations about, um, sexuality is such a you know, it's so, uh, they they're trying really hard to make it, uh, a normal thing and an OK thing. Whereas it's so kind of taboo, right to talk about sexuality, Um, so that that's really interesting. And that's, I think, a large part of why they dismiss the night scene because of the whole sex work aspect. And that's the most sexually non normative thing you can do. You're not only a a woman, I mean, well, a trans [00:51:30] woman giving pleasure to a man. You're doing it for money on the street, like, Wow, that's, you know, uh, this is these people who are We're living in good suburban homes with our wives and Children, um, and trying to emphasise that about themselves. But yeah, I think I just rambled on a little bit there. So it's really fascinating to think that so, like those newsletters, uh, this is this is well before homosexual law. Um, so to actually put things in writing is is kind of interesting. [00:52:00] Um, but also to hear you talk about that. They were involved, um, in law reform because, um, from a lot of the media coverage I've seen of the law reform around the eighties, there's not a lot of mention of, if any mention of kind of, um, transgender support for law reform or activism or anything like that. And actually, that's like one of the going back to when I was talking about being frustrated and stuff. I'm so sick [00:52:30] of reading histories that are only about gay men and lesbians, maybe bisexual people, but that say, you know, on the back they're like this wonderful history of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people, and they never mention transgender people. But that's always the little catch all phrase at the back. It's always the LG this book about or this article about the LGBT community, and they never mention trans people. Or if they do, it's to say, Oh, and they didn't really accept trans people or they were trans people. But they mention it once, and that's kind of it, Um, [00:53:00] but they were so they were definitely a part of it, and that's what I want to. I didn't focus on that, um, so much in my research because I had to narrow the scope of it to fit it into 10,000 word. But, uh, next year I'm thinking I would really like to investigate trans involvement in gay liberation, and I and and like with it seems like he had quite a good relationship with gay liberation because they were often invited along, um, to give panels and speeches and stuff. But I think, uh, again, [00:53:30] it's because they were I'm trying to say we're respectable and we're fine and we're quiet. And they weren't out and about protesting so much as as these people on the night scene were, um but, yeah, I think there's so much out there that I would really love to investigate more, Um, because it's so important and it's still in it. And it, uh, it's still going on today. Even though, you know, I think trans is becoming cooler. There's still, uh, like I do get from like I was saying, with [00:54:00] the students doing all these projects that don't seem to really take into account actual lived experiences of being Trans and and people I know who are gay and but they don't. They're like, Oh, yeah, I support trans people, but they don't really know anything about it And they don't really understand the history of Trans people being involved in it. And they don't see it as a as that kind of shared struggle, even though there's obviously differences and there's different things that we need to fight for. But yeah, but but seeing us as needing to support one another, [00:54:30] I guess, is what I'm meaning. It's interesting, just as you're talking. I was just actually thinking of one of the only bits of TV footage I can recall around kind of transgender issues around homosexual law reform. And that would have been Georgina Baer in, um, which kind of air? I think it was 85 86 but there was not a lot of footage that I've seen around that that that that kind of reference kind of, um, transgender activism around, uh, law [00:55:00] reform. Is it? Is it one of your drivers to not only write about kind of transgender histories, but also to actually make sure that they're recorded? Yeah, definitely. I don't know. I don't know if I if it's one of those kind of summer plans that I I say I'm gonna do. But I never actually end up doing I hope I hope I do it. Um, but this this summer, I really want to get some get the recording equipment, uh, from, uh, the honours history department and talk [00:55:30] to just as many people as I can get my hands on and just start recording things even without a without a project in mind or anything like like like, I think what you do is just so important because it's these, um, people you know are getting older, and it's important to record their voices because there are these histories that are gonna are gonna stay hidden unless we unless we record their eyes. So, yeah, that that's something I really want to do. Um, and just in general, I think I think I think just [00:56:00] oral history is just unbelievably important to queer histories and trans histories, um, to record all those all those stories? Um, yeah, yeah, I think. And I think because I think as well a lot of the narratives around trans people are framed by medical and legal professionals. And so to put it in the hands of trans people with the trans people like me. Like writing the history or the actual people that I'm interviewing. That you're interviewing [00:56:30] is so important, right to, um, fight back against that patho organisation of of Trans Identities. And and like I was saying to say that Trans people are more than their identities and they're politically active, and even when they're not politically active, they're still important. And they're still, you know, it's like every other group. Well, not every other group, but other groups get the history of just their mundane daily lives recorded, and and trans people barely get more than the fact that they're trans recorded. So, yeah, [00:57:00] what do do you have any thoughts on, um, peer interviewing. So, like, do you think, uh, gay men should interview gay men? Trans should interview trans Les men should interview lesbian? Or do you think are there pros and cons for? For that? I think there's pros and cons. Yeah, Yeah, I think, um, I think it's so important that queer people are able to interview other queer people because I think that there's certain questions that you just don't know to ask unless [00:57:30] you are queer, right? And like in terms of Trans, as I've done for so many of my peers and stuff, asked me to, um, want to interview me for various so many that makes me sound myself. But people, people, I think I'm the only trans person that quite a few people know that are just in my circles. I run an unfortunately cisgender. Um, so you know, people ask me questions about things, Um, and they just don't know what to ask. And I'm [00:58:00] like, Well, I could tell you about all sorts of different things. Um, but with things like I don't know, like dysphoria um, a lot of cisgender people not even knowing what the word dysphoria means or on or when they do, only focusing on dysphoria and only focusing on the struggling aspect of of trans lives when there's gender euphoria. And there's all the exciting parts of it and all the fun parts of gender exploration and and being trans that, um, picked up on because again that narrative has come [00:58:30] from medical and legal institutions or when it hasn't. It's come from media. Who loves to see trans people as these exciting. Um, you know, perverse kind of people. Um, yeah. So I think it's important, Like, because there's only certain questions that other queer people know to ask. But then as well, um, if you're on the inside, maybe there are. There are things that, um, you forget to ask because you already know what it means. So you don't ask about it. Um and also I think [00:59:00] that it's important. Like, I've been very aware of the fact that I'm so in awe of these people that I'm interviewing and writing about because I know that my life would not be possible without any of these people having done what they've done and having to step away from that a little bit and be the critical historian and and ask the harder questions and and kind of disrupt that narrative of of heroism, necessarily, which is not always so productive. And just that whole kind of, um, discrimination [00:59:30] resistance paradigm, which I think structures so much of queer history that before stonewall everyone was in the dark, and after stonewall, everyone was liberated, which is so not true. Um, it's so much more nuanced than that. And, uh, I think interviewing across sexualities and stuff, uh, is a really important way of cross. Uh, is a really important way of disrupting all those kind of meta narratives and mythologies that are so unquestioned. Well, one of the [01:00:00] things I was gonna ask you, uh, just in terms of how things may or may not have changed was, um, uh, you mentioned in your conclusion in your research about, um, Georgina buyer, uh, having a really brutal assault in Sydney in the late 19 seventies. And I was wondering, um, just in terms of violence towards trans people say, um in New Zealand and and maybe in particular in Wellington has that has that changed? I mean, [01:00:30] what what? What is it like now? I guess for for trans people, I think I don't know again because I didn't, like, want to focus my research on that because it's so, like, hard to hear, like, you were saying. But I don't think I don't think it has changed. As much as people would think it's changed. I think that, uh, again with I think I think trans people in the 19 seventies were really visible with people like Carmen and stuff and [01:01:00] that that did result in a lot of violence. And then I think people again, Trans people are really visible again and it's it's it's still it's still happening. And, like I personally, they have been beaten up as well. And that was I don't think. I mean, they didn't know I was Trans. They called me a faggot. So and that was only one time on the Wellington waterfront. And I think people like Georgina Baer had that happen a lot and to a lot worse extent, like I had a you know, a bit of a, uh uh, I think it was mild brain trauma or something, [01:01:30] but I was up and back to, you know, walk. I was walking around and stuff, uh, straight afterwards. But, you know, it wasn't it wasn't super brutal or anything, but it was. It was still, obviously it's still shocking and stuff. But, um, you know that that that really shocked me because I did feel safe in Wellington until that happened. And then with people like, uh, what's her last name? Xena. Zena Campbell. Um, on a street and knowing that I used to walk along that street every day when I was at my old flat. Um, [01:02:00] and that's really scary and knowing that the people who attacked me and my friends are still out there and the police haven't been able to catch. And there's no CCTV, uh, down by the waterfront and, um uh, and it's I can't remember who I was talking about it with, but, uh, with things like the um Wellington Pride Precinct, which is going up soon with the the Rainbow Walkway and stuff like That's really cool. And I'm glad that I I would love Rainbow Walkway. But I'd also love some more [01:02:30] CCTV cameras around and some more lights in certain areas and more kind of practical measures that can be taken because I think when now that Trans people are so visible again or are more visible than they've ever been, there's a sense that, like, Oh, all the battles have already been won. But visibility isn't the battle, really. It's It's all these kind of practical things health care, the big one, but yeah, in terms of in terms of feeling safe around Wellington, I do during the day, [01:03:00] but not at night, and I don't I mean with my friends in general, I like Like I said, most of my friends asked us, and I, um we're all very careful after that happened to me to message each other When we get home and make sure we're never alone or if we are, we're on the phone with each other because there are these people out there who just, uh don't don't care. Um, yeah, yeah, so yeah, I think it's this and [01:03:30] I and I mean and then in saying that as well, I'm a white, trans masculine person, so I know I don't even get the worst of it, right? Like it's 10 million times harder for, um, a trans woman of colour, that kind of thing. Um, yeah. So it's there's so much that needs to be done. Um, and and so much. Yeah. So much educating That needs to happen, I think. What? What did you take away from hearing the stories of [01:04:00] life in the seventies? What? What what's the biggest kind of take take away for you? The thing that struck me the most in which really made me feel quite like hopeful was, regardless of whether it was people from the 19 or people from the membership only club. Um, they all emphasised the importance of friendship, which, like, is just really sweet. And that whole message of, um, at the end of the day, we need to band together, even [01:04:30] though there were these quite severe distinctions between these two kind of groups but within the groups. And I think the night scene they were more accepting of the membership on the club than the membership on the club or the night scene. Um, yeah, but yeah, just just the importance of of friends and of trans friends. And when I was talking to Dianne, uh, I asked her how her friendships with, um, trans people compared to her friendships with with queens and without missing a beat, [01:05:00] she said they were solid, solid sisterhood, soulmates forever and ever. And she just rattled off this kind of list of synonyms. And I was like, Oh, just have me beaming because I was like, This is just so sweet. And two of her best friends were sitting in the room next door to us when we were talking. And just like how strong those friendships are, Um, yeah and that made me feel. And that made me reflect on the friendships I do have with trans people and like some of the people closest to me and, uh, or just other queer people and how [01:05:30] important those are and how I do hope that they're friendships for life. And I think they will be, because I am seeing them form in the same kind of way that Dianne's friendships formed out of the same kind of background. If that makes sense of of queer people sharing their experiences with each other and helping each other, Yeah, so that's that's been the nicest thing. I think the thing that's resonated the most.

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TITLE: Douglas Wright (2011)
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VOICES: Douglas Wright
INTERVIEWER: Bryan Crump
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bryan Crump; Douglas Wright; Radio New Zealand; Rex Halliday; Taukau; choreographer; choreography; dance; dancing; external resource; gay
DATE: 23 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Aotearoa New Zealand, Aotearoa New Zealand, Oceania
CONTEXT: Douglas Wright talks to Bryan Crump about his life.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Our first guest of the week is a New Zealand choreographer and dancer, Douglas Wright. Next Wednesday, the Auckland Festival will host a premiere of his latest work, Ramped and Douglas joins us Now. Welcome to tonight's Douglas. Thanks, Brian. You've got the same home town as Sir Hillary. Oh, yes, that's right. Which I only just realised. Um, did you know that? Um, no, it's a kind of thing [00:00:30] in the back of my head that I remember when you tell me it, but I think I knew at primary school Yeah, and had forgotten. I kind of imagine it would be quite important at primary school at some New Zealand hero. Yeah. Yeah. Were you already interested in dance when you were a primary school kid? Yes, I was dancing. When? Whenever I could. Yeah. And what set off dance for you? Was it music? No, I don't really [00:01:00] know I. I do have a a very early memory of, um, looking out through our front window and seeing a woman on a veranda opposite um, dancing back and forth and some sort of long white dress. It's like a dream, but I, I that sort of hovered there and my hovers in my mind like a a sort of a white butterfly there. She probably laid [00:01:30] her eggs in me at the time. Rap raps a great, I think A great title for a dance work. Can you tell us a bit about it? Well, uh, one of the reasons for calling it rapped is because of the rapture. You know, the feeling of rapture, ecstasy, um, and also because we have a half bird, half human [00:02:00] figure in the work. And he is part Raptor, which, actually means comes from the word meaning to rape. So the word has a lot of many different meanings, and the work, I think, reflects all of them but is, um, mainly concerned with the ecstasy of dance itself? Yeah. [00:02:30] I. I saw some photos for Rat, and I immediately thought of Bill Hammond, a New Zealand artist, or at least of his work. Was that in your mind as well? When you were putting it together? Well, you see, I mean, that's the immediate reference for us in New Zealand. Of course, the idea of a bird headed figure is ancient and goes back further than the Egyptians. I mean, they had the Egyptian God Horus, which is a hawk [00:03:00] headed man. And, uh, the Surrealists. Max Ernst did a whole series of collages based on bird headed gentlemen. So it's not directly from Bill Hammond. But of course, he is the most natural source of it here. Well, I guess he was tapping into the same stream. And I do love his work. [00:03:30] Yeah. What what's is it about the bird human figure? What does that represent? Well, yeah, I don't really know In it. In it, the bird headed figures. There's a scene where he comes. And I have thought of him as Zeus coming down to rape the young and beautiful gnome, which is an ancient myth [00:04:00] gnome being a young male. Um, so that happens. Um, I couldn't really say you see, dance is made or I make dance because I can't put those things necessarily into words, even though I'm also a writer. So I I make into dance what I can't put into words. So I can't really explain you to you what the bird symbolises. [00:04:30] I think it's an ancient, um, strand running through human consciousness. The music you've used for ramped there's is quite a contrast between David Long and you've you've You've worked with David Long before, from Martin, the guitarist from From the Martin Birds but also as 1/70 century composer. I hadn't heard of Heinrich Biber. Yes, um, I have a great friend, Rex Halliday, [00:05:00] who is a music, um, expert or maniac. He's wonderful with music, and he often plays me things. And when he first played me, Bieber Heinrich Bieber, I was, um, just blown away. It's solo violin with organ or, um, harpsichord, and it's pre, but some of it sounds incredibly modern. [00:05:30] It's very, very beautiful and strange. Slightly strange Does. Does music set off a dance idea, or do you often find or feel an idea in your body and then find the music to fit it? Well, it's quite strange these days, because I don't even though I was introduced as a dancer, I retired as a dancer in the year 2000 because I'm 54 now, So these days I [00:06:00] haven't quite an interesting phenomenon occurs to me where I actually see a movement sometimes while listening to the music and other times, just when I'm sitting there thinking or, you know, thinking of nothing. I'll just suddenly see someone doing something in my head. And yeah, and I also ask the dancers to improvise, and I choose M movement and [00:06:30] develop it from their improvisations. A musician has manuscript paper. Well, many do. And a poet has paper to write down words. But what does a choreographer have? Blood? Well, actually, there there is a, um, system of notation notation that you can use to copy and record dance. But we mainly use video [00:07:00] to record rehearsals and to refer to Yeah, I remember, uh, the that manuscript being used. There was a dance documentary by Margot Fontaine. I think it was back in the eighties on the tele on on TV. And she explained how how they wrote down dance moves. But does video make it a lot easier to choreograph these days? Oh, yes, I think so. Because you can capture, [00:07:30] um, improvisations and capture if it's in good light. Um, the most minute gesture, which notation? It's very difficult to notate some of the contemporary movement. I mean, ballet is far more coded. You said you retired from and I I was going to ask you when and the the latest I had was 2008. But no, no, no. I retired as a as [00:08:00] a dancer in 2000, but I actually said that I retired as a choreographer in 2007, but nobody took any notice. So I've sort of changed my mind. Yes. Well, they kept on asking for more work. No, no. I put out a press release saying that I'd retired and to all the television, radio, newspaper things and one newspaper ran a little, um, column. And nobody else was interested in the fact that I'd retired [00:08:30] after 25 years, so I thought, Well, they don't care. So I'll just do what I want. Which was to do a bit more choreography. Where did the rap was that? Was that a commission from from the festival? Yes, it is. But I really was trying to stay retired, and I had a couple of meetings with one accidental and one planned with two people who persuaded [00:09:00] me gently back into work. Yeah, but that and and the, um, commission from the festival followed that. How did they persuade you? They just told me that they wanted me to make work. I didn't think anybody wanted me to. So they told me that people did want me to. And I suppose that it again seeded something [00:09:30] in me because dance ideas were already coming to me. But I was pushing them away because I said I. I said to myself, Well, you don't do that anymore. Please go away. I don't want you to the ideas. Why did you retire and or or make write out a press release, a media release, and and say you retired in 2007 because I felt that I was exhausted and I was kind of angry that my last work didn't go beyond [00:10:00] Sydney. And I thought, Why should I expect the taxpayer to continually pay huge amounts of money for making a work that has 11 performances? Was that black milk or black milk? Yeah, and that was with working with David Long in terms of music, wasn't it? Yes. And, um really? Yeah. I always seem to, um, have [00:10:30] a combination of composers. Oh, yeah, in contrast. And that goes back to the eighties because I was you did a dance to sky, the Trinity to the victims of Hiroshima. And I was thinking, as I read that Well, I don't think there's a single sort of solid beat in that whole piece. There's scrapes and and sorts of cracks, but not a beat with a lot of discord. And then the next thing you did was Tom Jones. Oh, that [00:11:00] was years ago. I know it was years ago, but I thought this is a history that it goes back a combination of music. I'm blushing now. I'm glad you can't hear that. I think you should be proud. I was delighted to see this mixture of music direct followed by Tom Jones to see music. Yes, well, I guess I do, in a way. But that's another story. Um, so you you thought about because it didn't black milk [00:11:30] didn't get a run beyond Sydney. What? You felt that asking for money to make new work was not was not worthwhile. Well, I felt like I'd had my chance and blow on it. Really? So why let somebody else try, you know, is doubt something that you have to deal with as as an artist, as many creative artists have to deal with Yes. Well, I'm glad they changed your mind. [00:12:00] Thank you. With how much time have you spent on on realising the ideas and wrapped the images and wrapped? Well, probably two years. But in terms of studio time, only 10 weeks working with the dancers and, um, David, uh, so 10 weeks altogether working. But for two years, I've been working on the ideas. [00:12:30] And what does that mean for for a a choreographer? Does that mean you said you don't dance anymore? Does that mean everything is in your head or do you occasionally? Do you still experiment a bit in your own home? Oh, yeah. I. I made up one movement that made it into rapped, But mainly it's, um I read an enormous amount. I watch a lot of [00:13:00] films, but not so much Hollywood films. I watch a lot of Tarkovsky films that are more poetic. Uh, I look for images, I. I find things in literature that spark something inside me. And I've got a quite a good memory for those things. Although I do keep notes, Um, I probably read a book a day so and I don't read trash. [00:13:30] Isn't that Isn't that I'm, um I'm a snob. I'm a cultural snob. I don't watch television. I think it's a load of crap. Well, not even the arts channel. What? OK, we won't go there. Um, Douglas Tako, the Russian. It's a Russian filmmaker. Now he his his Well, the work I know of is, is very slow and spacious. Takes a long time to move. [00:14:00] Yeah, I, I love it. I mean, I love different films of his better, you know, more than others. But I was watching the mirror the other night, and it's incredible haunting. It's a whole direction that cinema hasn't taken, the path not taken, you know, we've it's just to me, it's magical and it's spiritual art. And that's the kind of art that I'm interested in art that moves [00:14:30] the human spirit as well. As you know. It's all very well to have violence and sex and nudity, But if it doesn't move the spirit, I'm not really interested in it. Are you still writing as well as reading a book a day? Well, I've just finished a new book of poems that should be coming out later on in the year. Are they in any way influenced by raps or the other way around? [00:15:00] Well, strangely, one of the poems starts off. A herd of cows does not need a choreographer, it's the first line, so it's sort of, um, it's not really inspired by rapped, although I am intrigued. Can you remember the next line? Because that's a great start. Left to themselves, they always fall into tableau of the most ineluctable grandeur. Michelangelo might weep. Yeah, that's [00:15:30] the next. That's a great line. Thank you. Are there plenty of talented young dancers coming through? Yeah, yeah, there's they're churning out the The schools which are getting better and better, are turning out a lot of wonderful dancers and not so many choreographers, I'm sad to say, but there's so little room for the arts [00:16:00] here in New Zealand anyway, it's, you know, I would advise any young person wanting to do that, not to really. And then if they have to, then well and good. But if they don't have to, I wouldn't do I wouldn't I wouldn't recommend it. You had to, didn't you? Yeah, it was something that was in in my blood still is. And it won't go away. Even though I've tried to send it away. [00:16:30] Yes, you have. And we didn't listen, and I'm I'm kind of glad of that. Douglas Wright is our guest on nights wrapped as his new work, it's premiering next week as part of the Auckland Festival. I, I know you, you've already mentioned you're not a big fan of of Pop TV, but I was going to ask you about the Did you see the television three series on on apprentices in terms of the Royal Ballet New Zealand Ballet last year? Oh, well, then I won't ask any further because I would have been [00:17:00] interested in that in terms of of young people coming through. It's not any easier, you think for somebody to choose to be a dancer in New Zealand now than it was when you made that choice. Um, I think it's easier in terms of finding small projects to do. There's a lot of, um, sort of underground work going on, which is very interesting, but, uh, when [00:17:30] I started out, there was limbs, which was full time, and I had a wonderful two years with limbs before I went to America, and I don't think many dancers have that opportunity here. Now, I mean, most, most fantastic dances that come out of here do go and live in Europe. Or at least Australia. [00:18:00] Yeah. And you went to New York. And how important was that in developing you as a dancer and later as a choreographer? Well, it was immensely important because I I worked for one of, well, supposedly one of the world's greatest choreographers, Paul Taylor, for 4. 5 years and got to see first hand, You know, the front line of dance from Europe and around [00:18:30] America. Um, so it was of immense worth to me, uh, in terms of it being a dancer and a choreographer because I had already begun making my own work and showing it while I was in Manhattan. Yeah. Was that a frightening thing to do initially to show your work in Manhattan? Yeah, but everything is so high pitched there, the the air is like it's like breathing [00:19:00] diamonds or something. It's so, um, jewel like and sparkling with energy. Every everything sizzles. So you just find yourself wept along or dumped at the side. You You mentioned that in New Zealand and and and clarify this if I didn't hear you right, that really, it's not a not a good place to be a dancer in New Zealand, is that sorry? Is that is [00:19:30] that because we because New York is obviously a fantastic place for so many arts, But then New York is such a big city, is it just that we're a small country? Yeah, that's and and our distance from the rest of the world makes touring anywhere else almost impossible. Why did you come home? Well, initially, I came home really to have a a year's break from Paul and to see if I wanted [00:20:00] to go back. And then I became ill and was diagnosed with HIV in February. In 1990 I was given 18 months to live, so I didn't think it was worth going back to New York at that point. Also, I couldn't walk more than about 50 yards at the time, so it is remarkable now in terms of the treatment for HIV how that's changed. I mean, what was a death sentence [00:20:30] for, for for many people, I know people who were diagnosed in the mid eighties and they're just fine now and you're just fine by the sound of it. Well, I wouldn't I wouldn't I think there are people who have got a slight misconception. There are people like me who have had the virus for so long that I mean, I have about a quarter of the energy that I used to have. And I know some of that is due to growing older, but [00:21:00] it's mostly due to the virus. So I'm not. I don't feel particularly healthy. I'm very easily tired. I can only work for three hours tops a day. So it's not really as much fun as it could be. No, no, it still has an impact on your life. Oh, tremendous. Yeah. In fact, we just I think just in our news it was a It was a little bulletin story about the rate [00:21:30] of infection rising a little bit. And that's because young guys and young women seem to think that it is so easily controllable now. And it's still a life sentence to taking, you know, whatever. 5, 10 pills a day, and sometimes they don't agree with you. You know, if you hadn't have got HIV, do you think you might still be overseas. [00:22:00] Yes, I would definitely be overseas. I wouldn't have stayed here. But once you're here, what are the advantages apart from it? Perhaps being a better place to live if if you're a little bit ill, but lean closer to where you grew up. What are the other advantages? Are there advantages creatively for you? Yeah, there are Because I think that this country does turn out a kind of dancer that doesn't come from anywhere else. I think the dancers, the good [00:22:30] dancers here are enormously physical and, um, fearless. And they take up they when they move, they take up a lot of space. They know how to move through space. A lot of they don't play it safe. So I'm very, um, grateful for the whatever that is, wherever that comes from. You know, I feel as if I'm working with the best dances I could get anywhere, Really. [00:23:00] And also, I'm very attached to the land here. I you know it. It's part of me. Where is home now? Well, I live in Mount Albert and Auckland in a housing New Zealand house by the little hill. There, actually by a stream, was is it Oakley Creek? Uh, no, [00:23:30] but I think it feeds into that. Yeah, Yeah, it's just a part of West Auckland. I know. Yeah. Yeah. And the wait is not too far away. Yeah, I have a beautiful garden, and I've lived in the same place for 11 years, so I've planted many trees, even though I don't own the place. Um, I decided to make a garden in anyway, so if I get kicked out, I'll I'll be very angry. But everything is sailing along now. [00:24:00] You've directed other things as well as dance. You've had a go at opera, haven't you? Well, I've choreographed two operas for the Australian Opera. Yeah, not directed them. OK, so you haven't directed the singers themselves in terms of of singing on directed them in terms of movement. And I have also directed a play which my company did in 19 98. I think forbidden memories, which [00:24:30] was a very interesting experience directing opera singers. Now they have to think about using their bodies to produce this. This amazing sound and sometimes moving is not necessarily compatible with that. And I often watch opera and think Well, this is really rather static. And the music is just moving so much. And I often find myself wishing that the singers moved a bit more themselves. Well, often when I mean, when I've worked with the Australian [00:25:00] Opera, I had a group of dancers working with me Who provided that kind of rush of movement, the dance, the singers themselves. I just you know, it was more like take four steps this way. You know, it wasn't I mean, they weren't dancers, they were singers, But there were dance dances in between the, um a Is, was [00:25:30] it successful? Yeah, it was great. We did, um, a and a little vixen. Yes. Yes. Music moves. Oh, I love ya. It was a wonderful experience, actually. I enjoyed it immensely. Do you think this is on an outside of of of performing dance? Do you think New Zealanders are getting better at dancing? [00:26:00] What do you mean? In terms of being more comfortable dancing? I don't know if it's possible for you to answer that question, but just in observations of the way that people move and whether they dance that that image of that woman in white that you remember as a as a child. Were there many other images? Many other examples of New Zealanders dancing that inspired you then? No, no. I mean, if you think about it. If we If you see someone dancing on the [00:26:30] street by themselves, you think they're either drunk or mad? Usually if they're, say over 30 Um, whereas in a place like New York or London, well, you don't think anything. It's natural. They are mad. Probably possibly. Possibly not. But it doesn't matter. When I have been in the it [00:27:00] was Turkey, I think where I was one of the most amazing dancing men. Um, all that, uh, it was I was kept awake and I was in some some cheap motel out east. A hotel, Actually, nobody drove anywhere, um, and was woken up by this this party downstairs, and, um well, there was no point in trying to sleep, so I went down all these blokes just dancing. I'd never seen blokes move like this. Yeah, it was quite amazing. It was quite [00:27:30] beautiful. I, I but I, I think Well, I mean, the image that we perhaps tell ourselves is that we don't We're not a dancing culture in New Zealand. And it sounds to me that you would concur with that. Well, I don't really have that much interest in New Zealand culture. I just I'm interested in world culture. I don't really think in a nationalistic way. I don't feel I feel like I'm part of the world. [00:28:00] And, um, I want to be part of the world's culture. I think obsessing constantly about what New Zealanders are and aren't is, um, pointless and probably part of our problem. Have you always felt that way as an artist? Yeah. Yeah. Who were the dancers, if there were any that inspired [00:28:30] you to dance? Uh, Kilda Northcott, who is actually is still dancing with me. And she was my hero or heroine when I joined limbs. She was dancing with me then and is still going strong at 56. Sorry, Kilda revealing your age over the radio. Um, and there was [00:29:00] a couple of dancers in New York. A woman called Kate Johnson. Ruth Andrian. They're not names. People would know here, but, you know, if R does well, do you think there's more in you more? Uh, if it does Well, yes, possibly your company now Is that still going? Or did that stop, too, when you retired [00:29:30] and two? No, Well, my company was always because I didn't have the energy to make works constantly. I didn't have a full time company. It was more pack up every 18 months and tour for a while. But we really need to get on a circuit where we can make a work and tour it for a year. And then I make another work. So this company there are. Most of the people who were in black milk are in it again, but I haven't worked with [00:30:00] them since, which was in 2006. So that's four years later, and your hope is that Rapped will have a life beyond the festival then. Well, actually, I don't really hope that because I've discovered that it's best not to hope for things, because when they don't arise, you're less, um, tortured. But it would be it would be a good thing. And to that end, it's on Next, premiering [00:30:30] next Wednesday and the venue and the time, Um, it's at the Civic Theatre in Auckland, which I'm really humbled and proud to be able to present to work in that wonderful The beautiful Picture Theatre. Yeah, it's a fantastic theatre. So we go from Wednesday through to Saturday at 7. 30 I think there's a matinee. Yes, on Saturday, the [00:31:00] 19th at two o'clock as well. Douglas. Thanks very much for joining us. You're welcome, Brian.

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TITLE: Ideas: 25th anniversary of homosexual law reform
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VOICES: Bill Logan; Chris Laidlaw; Fran Wilde; George Gair; John Banks; Neil Costelloe; Norman Jones; Phylesha Brown-Acton; Tighe Instone
INTERVIEWER: Chris Laidlaw
TAGS: 1980s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bill Logan; Chris Laidlaw; Fran Wilde; Gay BC (Wellington Access Radio); George Gair; Homosexual Law Reform; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); John Banks; Keith Hay; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Norman Jones; Peter Nowland; Phylesha Brown-Acton; QUILTED BANANAS (Wellington Access Radio); Tighe Instone; anti discrimination; discrimination; external resource; homosexual; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; human rights; lesbian
DATE: 10 July 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Aotearoa New Zealand, Aotearoa New Zealand, Oceania
CONTEXT: Chris Laidlaw leads a discussion on the 25th anniversary of homosexual law reform. Speakers include former MP Fran Wilde, activist Bill Logan and Phylesha Brown-Acton from the New Zealand AIDS Foundation.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: It's 25 years almost to the day since the homosexual law reform bill was tumultuously passed into law by the New Zealand parliament in a conscience vote that revealed much about those who voted both for and against and that law change was a long time. Coming up until 18 86 the crime of anal sex, or buggery, as it was termed, was punishable by death in New Zealand. Death, death, death a full five years after Britain flogging remained on the books until the late 19 fifties. And it was only in 1961 [00:00:30] that the Crimes Act removed life imprisonment for sodomy. So with that history of intolerance, it's perhaps not surprising that the 1986 homosexual law reform bill unleashed an intense debate between those supporting the human rights of homosexuals and those determined to see homosexual acts remain a crime. Just how intense that debate is was is nicely captured in this little montage of historical recordings compiled by Radio New Zealand's Gareth Watkins. If this bill is passed in its present [00:01:00] form, homosexuals from overseas will come to New Zealand in their thousands. New Zealand will be looked upon as the matter for homosexuality, for sodomy. What an attraction it is going to be. To them, the minister of tourism be able to advertise New Zealand to homosexuals throughout the world. Come to New Zealand for sun, for sun, for scenery and safe sodomy. The glass doors opened at the front [00:01:30] of the Citadel, and several Army men came out. One pushed the press photographer's camera into his face while another tried to keep him out of the way. So not only are Salvation Army peddling petitions of hate, but they're now assaulting reporters. The life is Mr Right mine, Close says. Where do you come from? [00:02:00] I don't love homosexuals. As far as I'm concerned, You five per cent normal people stand out. Yeah, I myself No, bye. Thanks. Good thing [00:02:30] there is a had no sex. Yeah, Mike is all right. Thank you. Do we see concerned Christians hiring town halls to discuss the problems of the alienation of Children of our society or violence within the family? And we do not see this happening. And we question the motive [00:03:00] for their concern. I believe their concern is founded on irrational fear and ignorance. Keith Hay is the organiser of the petition and has clearly stated in the New Zealand Times on the seventh of April that he does not know anything about homosexuality. However, this man is prepared and his ignorance to organise a nationwide [00:03:30] campaign against a group of people whom he knows nothing about. He condemns such an action. We are citizens of this country. We demand our rights. They're citizens of New Zealand. The bill condemn the petition, the petition that is based on ignorance. [00:04:00] Don't circulate it. Don't sign it. If you have already signed it spray and ask to have your name alone. He's not too late. Support the bill ClA Part here and right. It's 16 months since Wellington Central MP Fran Wilde introduced the Homosexual Law Reform bill, and it's been a passionate, lengthy debate. The original bill set out not only to legalise sodomy but also to remove discrimination against homosexuals. [00:04:30] That part of the bill, however, was defeated along the way, and the age of consent became the central focus in recent months. As late as last night, Hawke's Bay MP Bill Sutton tried unsuccessfully to have the bill sent back to committee stages for consideration of 18 as the age of consent. Opposition deputy leader George Gere led off last night's crucial debate, explaining he could not vote against the bill but had struggled to vote for it because of the age of consent being set at 16. There are some aspects of abstention that are [00:05:00] appealing. But in the final analysis, a vote for abstention, I reasoned, was passing the responsibility over to others and that I'm not prepared to do so. I was presented with what I feel is a difficult choice between two two propositions, neither of which I like, but one of which I like less than the other. So, sir, I will when the vote is taken, votes for the bill. But I grant you with considerable [00:05:30] reluctance. Mr. Gere's pro reform declaration led to an attack from one of his own caucus, W a MP John Banks, whose response typified divisions within Parliament, will be remembered as a sad and sickening day for New Zealand. A sad and sickening day for New Zealand. A very black cloud hangs over this parliament tonight, and those members [00:06:00] that wheel themselves through the doors of the eyes lobby voting for legalised sodomy at the age of 16 should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. The final vote was 49 in favour of the bill, 44 against a majority of five. Francois, the bill's promoter, says getting the bill through Parliament has not won all the battles for the homosexual community. I think there has been a change of attitudes during the bill. The Hale polls have shown increasing support for [00:06:30] the bill as the, uh, last year or so have gone on. But there is still a proportion of New Zealanders who will vilify and hate homosexual people. And I think that as a community, that is not a healthy outlook. And we should try and educate people, um, to respect differences. You lost part two of the bill fairly early on, and that was the anti discrimination part. How significant was that? That was significant. It applied, of course, not just to gay men, but to [00:07:00] lesbian women. And I was very sad that we lost that, Um, I suspect some people voted against it simply to provide themselves with a little bit of political insurance, so they felt they could vote for part one of the bill. The strain been like for you personally over the months. And where do you go from here? Oh, well, it's been a terrible strain to tell you the truth, but I go now back to being the member for Wellington Central and the Government. We've been trying to put a bit more time into other issues. I'm certainly not contemplating another exercise [00:07:30] of this nature in the near future. Did you, at any stage doubt that it was all worthwhile? No, I didn't doubt. But sometimes I wondered what, um, insanity had caused me to actually try to do it in the first place. I must admit, there were times when I thought I must have been mad to take it on, but I didn't doubt that I should have taken it on. And that was a very youthful sounding former Wellington Central MP Fran Wilde, ending that montage of historical recordings from the Lesbian Gay Archives of New Zealand. The recordings were [00:08:00] by Peter Knowland and Wellington Access radio, Gay BC and Lesbian radio. So 25 years on, how does Fran wild feel about it all? Earlier this week, I asked her how the bill came about and why she thought it was successful when earlier attempts had ended in failure. Well, the attempts before this were, um Generally, my understanding is with an age of consent of 21 for a start, and they probably didn't have much of a campaign run for them in any event [00:08:30] from the parliamentary end. Uh, so when I was campaigning in 1981 for Wellington Central, I was lobbied, as we're all candidates by the people from the gay community, saying, Would you support a change of law? And I said, Of course I would. I think it's rather a large black hole in our human rights legislation. And then the second question was, would you be interested in introducing a bill, you know, in the absence of anyone else? And I just [00:09:00] said, Oh, well, I hadn't actually thought about that. But I said, I guess I guess I'd be happy to do it if I needed to Wasn't a burning issue for you at the time. It wasn't It wasn't something I campaigned on. It was something I was asked about during the campaign, and I said I would support it. And so after the election, um, straight back to me, well, actually, the issue was nobody else would support it and agree to run a campaign for it. The gay groups were very clear that they needed equality [00:09:30] under the law. And in fact, the first bill I looked at was called the Equality Bill, and it wasn't the same as the one that finally got passed. It got, I suppose, torpedoed for a number of reasons, which are probably a bit complex now, but it didn't didn't get anywhere. And so the homosexual law Reform bill was then drafted as the second attempt at it. And that's basically what was passed. Except we lost part two of that, which was the [00:10:00] amendments to the Human Rights Act? Yes, there were. Well, there were two elements to your bill, uh, the decriminalisation of male homosexuality that's fairly straightforward. And the protection from discrimination. All this was subsequently built into the Human Rights Rights Act in 1993. Indeed, and in fact, I think it would be fair to say that in voting down part two of the bill, some of the [00:10:30] MP S were taking out a little bit of insurance what they thought was political insurance. So they knew we had to decriminalise uh, but they were saying, Well, changing the Human Rights Act is just going a bit too far. And I think that was like having a dollar each way with the constituency. In fact, by the time we got to this third reading, um, there had been a huge campaign with, um, significant public debate and a lot of information [00:11:00] given out, which was quite educational. And I think by that stage, society had moved considerably from probably a position of Oh, this is a bit scary. And we're not sure to saying, Look, we just got to get this through, so I'm not sure that the MP S needed that insurance at that stage, but some of them would have thought they did in their electorates. I guess for some people that the notion that what people did in their in their spare time, um wasn't their business. So therefore yes, decriminalisation seemed to be OK, [00:11:30] but actually, having the law defend the right, uh, and the right to not be discriminated against because of that was obviously the big leap that including a number of MP S, couldn't quite make. That is correct. Although As I said, I think there were probably some who knew that it was pretty difficult to decriminalise and then say, Well, you, you nonetheless you can still discriminate against this group. But they chose [00:12:00] to have that dollar each way, and I guess some of them were genuine in their belief that what people do in in their own privacy is their business. But, you know, they they didn't want to be forced to support as they saw it. Some behaviour they didn't agree with. However, as you point out very soon after, I mean within years, that was changed anyway, So it all becomes, um, a bit questioning. Now, this was to be the end of Western civilization, [00:12:30] and the sky was going to collapse. Fall in. Um, everything's terrible things were going to happen. Uh, and they haven't. And in fact, um, some probably some very good things have happened as a result of this. The fact of the age minimum age 16 being the age of consent was clearly too much for some people. I mean, George Gere agonised over this, uh, and thought this was wrong and wavered. Uh, as I understand it, uh, he was a number of, um, members [00:13:00] on both sides who wavered because of that. But he finally finally voted for it. But I think what he said with a heavy heart, well, I would. I, I must say it was interesting that people who thought that girls were old enough or mature enough if you want to have sex at 16, um called all boys as long as though it was with, um each other. But there there was no room for gay sex at that age. And the certainly the gay and lesbian community were absolutely focused on the fact that it had to be equality [00:13:30] under the law. And they were right. Um, the interesting thing about the age of consent is that in the committee stages stage, uh, when we were debating that clause, some of the most vehement antagonists who were absolutely against any law change at all voted for 16 for an age of consent because they believed that they would sink the bill. Yes, they said, no one in their right mind would possibly vote in the third reading for an for an age of consent of 16. So they voted for 16, [00:14:00] which amazed me because we then knew we just that was the next political hurdle. But but we had a pretty strong chance of getting that. The opposition to it was vehement, and it was consistent. And it was loud, Uh, how did you deal with that at the time? Can you remember with great difficulty? Um, nice letters? Ah, yes. I had the all the the death threats, the threats to me. My person, Um, I was worried about my kids. I have to say, [00:14:30] I must say the police were very good. Um, and all my staff were trained to detect litter bombs, et cetera, but it was very nasty. And in fact, as the campaign went on, it became clear that we had to pass this bill because it was actually more of a parliamentary vote on a whole lot of other values in our society, too. And if we had failed, it wouldn't have just been the gay community that was was, um, would have been under pressure from [00:15:00] the, uh, radical fundamentalists who are opposing this. It would have been a whole lot of other rights that we had won and that really, nowadays are regarded as so basic that nobody talks about them anymore because that's just the way things should be. But then, uh, we had major opposition, um, from extreme religious fundamentalists in particular, and it was quite a dangerous period, I think for our society, which has always been reasonably liberal, and and [00:15:30] this was a challenge to that, uh, to the authenticity of that value system. Uh, so it was a hard campaign and the it was a very big campaign. We ran a huge campaign, we being me and the and my colleagues in parliament, but particularly the gay, gay and lesbian community right around the country, and many, many other supportive New Zealanders who weren't gay. Many of them had, you know, they they just did it because it was the right thing to do. So even [00:16:00] though it was hard for me, I think the ones who were who found it the most difficult were the gay men who came out during that period. I knew that visibility was really important, and it was a pretty big ask um, for them to say, Look, guys, you're criminals now under the law, and you're subject to a lot of discrimination or you would be if people knew who you were. But we need some visibility so that your fellow Kiwis can see that you're just ordinary people. And this is not [00:16:30] a threat to our society or our value system or the family or anything like that. And many, many people came out during that campaign and they were very brave. Absolutely. If it had failed, they would. They would have been very vulnerable and and probably would have paid a high price. That was Fran Wilde, former MP for Wellington Central, whose private member's homosexual law reform bill was passed into law 25 years ago. And, [00:17:00] as she pointed out, the gay men and women who campaigned for the bill did so at very real risk to themselves and their futures within a society with deep misgivings about the issue. Bill Logan was one of those who stood up and spoke out, and earlier this week Jeremy Rose caught up with the Wellington councillor and celebrant and asked him how he first became involved in gay activism. I guess it was a consequence of coming to terms with the fact that I was gay, Um, which I did rather late. Um, I was sort of 30 [00:17:30] or something like that. Before I face up to the fact that I was gay, I'd hidden from my own gayness, uh, so that I wasn't even conscious of it. I think that, you know, if I look back into my life, I can see moments in which I was given clear signals that if I were gay, it would be a disaster. And, uh, yeah, so I I married, uh, luckily, perhaps didn't have Children. Uh, and it wasn't until I was [00:18:00] Yeah, roughly 30. And so about when is then that this would have been, say, 1979. So well before the homosexual law reform got to parliament that there was already activism beginning to happen. Yeah, well, there's been there's been activism all along, Um, and particularly after the, uh, wolfenden report in England which came down with recommendations to legalise homosexuality in private between [00:18:30] consenting adults. Uh, that led to a rethinking of strategies in a small group of liberals and academics and gave gay men a sense that there was some chance of a law change. And that goes back, I think, to the late fifties. Uh, at some point, uh, there was a homosexual law reform set up [00:19:00] in New Zealand was set up, uh, on the initiative of of a group within a social club for homosexual men. And they developed an alliance with liberal academics who agreed with some sort of homosexual law reform. So that was a very conservative tactic in a way of going very gently of not wouldn't be possible for any anyone who was homosexual to be a spokesperson [00:19:30] for that group, but, um, a sense of the possibility of change, uh, and then with, or things like women's liberation and the anti-war movement and so on. In the late sixties and early seventies, there was gradually the development of a more activist stream of gay politics, particularly after the stone stonewall riots, which were probably, um, 1969 in, [00:20:00] uh in New York. And so you get a AAA much greater, more radical activism, Um, and then various attempts to change the law in New Zealand. And you were a radical activist back in those days in the sixties and that but do you remember? I mean, you mentioned that there was the odd occasion where you had a glimpse that you might have been gay, you had a feeling. But, you know, what was it like at school in the sixties when you were at school, Were you aware that there were gay people, [00:20:30] or was it completely hidden? I mean, I remember one or two conversations with people about the fact that there were such things as homosexuals. Um, I remember one conversation where my mate said, Yeah, they're mostly French. I think, Um, you know, it was something that was thought of to be incredibly other, uh and yeah, I didn't really have any sense of it, but yeah, at the same time. [00:21:00] Uh, I remember when we were really young, like eight or nine. It was pretty normal for boys to wander around the playground with their arms over each other's shoulders. And then perhaps when you were a little bit older, that wasn't allowed any longer. For reasons which weren't stated or anything, it just stopped happening. That's an interesting thing, though, because when when I was in China in the late eighties, [00:21:30] you would see soldiers walking down the road holding hands and you thought, My God, this place is liberated. But then you realise that it was the fact that it was so homophobic that the very idea that they could be homosexuals was just ridiculous, right? But it's interesting because when I was, say, 12 in in what was then form two, I guess, um, I was standing with an older, uh, older woman teacher and we were seeing these youngsters [00:22:00] with their arms around each other's shoulders. And this this teacher said, That's disgusting, Bill, isn't it? And it had never occurred to me before that this this was disgusting. II I didn't say a word. Um, it was clearly something that I had to had to understand better. Uh and I think that taught me or started to teach me always one element of teaching me that homosexuality was bad before I even had a word, [00:22:30] uh, for it. And that feeling continued despite the fact that you were mixing in, as I said earlier, kind of radical circles. I mean, you ran a left wing bookshop in the in the seventies. You you were part of a group that sorts of as revolutionary. But you still felt that being gay would be a problem. Yeah, I mean, I knew one or two people who were gay. Uh, I certainly stood believed that, uh, there should be no law [00:23:00] against homosexuality. Uh, by the time I had sufficient awareness to, you know, by the time I was at university or something. Um, but the idea of being gay myself was was very scary, I think. And tell me about your involvement in the campaign for law reform. How did that come about? And and just Yeah, what was it like? Actually, when I had my first conversation with my mother, um, about [00:23:30] the fact that I was gay I I remember her saying, because she knew me as a radical activist and she said, Well, you'll have to go on and get the law changed, won't you? If this is a normal thing in my life to, uh, get get involved in anything that, uh, involved me or seemed important to me at a political level, Uh, I had a bookshop at that stage. A political bookshop. Uh, and I had I. I was selling gay [00:24:00] books. That bookshop became a bit of a social centre for, uh, gay men in particular. I was also involved in, uh, the gay switchboard, which was, uh, uh, information and kind of counselling, peer counselling kind of group. And also in a gay community centre. And so these were bases from which there were all sorts of talk about law, change, [00:24:30] possibilities and so on. And so I mean, it was illegal. How much was that law? Symbolic? More than actually something which the police ever enforced. Well, it would be enforced when there were complaints. Uh, and the complaints could come in a lot of different ways. So if parents didn't like a relationship that a son was getting into, even if the son was a quite mature age, [00:25:00] the parents could make a complaint to the police, and that would be investigated. Um, so it it there was something arbitrary about it. And then even if there wasn't a prosecution, the police could use the fact of the law to to push people a bit to push them in respect of, uh, their sexual behaviour. You know, if you if [00:25:30] you have any other men coming to your home, we're going to intervene. Kind of, uh, statements to just the ordinary bullying that you might expect from a very male, very male centred, uh, police force, which was not not particularly enlightened. There was a certain amount of bullying, a certain amount of, uh, homophobia that was in the air, uh, in that situation. And then, uh, there were there was, for [00:26:00] example, a gay sauna in Wellington. And that, I remember, was raided all well into the 19 eighties by police. Um, so you know, the the there were real. It was a really different legal climate that exists now, So that brings us to 1986 and the homosexual law reform. Do you remember how you got involved? I remember that Fran was being [00:26:30] a politician. Uh, her job is to get votes. And she approached the gay community through me. In fact, before, uh, the election. What was that? In 1984 for support of the gay community. This big meeting, uh, in Wellington with lesbians, gay men, and Fran, Uh, and she said that she wouldn't guarantee to introduce a bill, But if the climate seemed right to her, uh, after [00:27:00] her election, she would, uh, And then after that election, uh, we had another meeting. Uh, and, uh, we talked a little bit with her and talked a little bit about the kind of law that she would, uh, possibly, uh, introduce. And then she made contacts with gay groups in Auckland and elsewhere. So there was, um, an interaction between between Fran and gay and lesbian communities around around [00:27:30] the country To do that a a And then during the actual after the introduction of the bill, of course, there was this massive public debate which, well, it wasn't just the gay community, it was. Everyone got involved. And then were you surprised by the ferocity of that debate? Because when you listen back to the audio from that time and you hear the norm, Joneses and and John Banks is talking, it is passionate, [00:28:00] and it is hate filled. No, not not at all. I mean, I had grown up in the fear of something. That was what I was afraid of. Um, and I think that all of us, sometimes it was a particular thing, which was particularly upsetting. But it was the upset, the the distress, the and and the hatred that we we had grown up around us. You know, we actually we invited John banks to come on to the programme and to talk about [00:28:30] it because, you know, since then he's been to the big gay out, and he seems to have had this journey where he's he's gone from that ferociously anti gay and and very much against the law to courting the gay vote. Sadly, he he declined. He said, Look, it's 25 years ago and, um, things have moved on and really, I don't want to talk about it. Who's interested in that? And he even said, told me at the time he was standing on a farm in and, um, there was 35,000 dairy cows. That's the type of story [00:29:00] he wants to talk about. You know, that's what he said, looking back and and that intensity of the feeling. I mean, was it simply politics? Were they going for votes? Uh, I'm sure that politicians go for votes, and some of it was simply politics, and I don't know what is really in the head of John Banks. Perhaps he convinces himself with his own rhetoric, but to the extent that he's going for votes, he's responding to something that's very real in the [00:29:30] community. uh, the truth is that that homophobia was at street level, too. Uh, and I know I got rocks thrown on the top of my house and, uh, things like that during the campaign. Uh, other people got far worse. Um, two people that I knew personally got beaten up, uh, in ways which changed their lives permanently. One very old man [00:30:00] who lost his independence as a result of being beaten up, uh, during that period by homophobes and one young man who was beaten up and badly injured, uh, and has never been the same again. I mean, he's lived an independent and worthwhile life, but, um, not with the physical strength that might be expected. You know, there's permanent, uh, damage. I mean, it does feel like something other than when we think of sexism. [00:30:30] When we think of a lot of forms of racism, there's a kind of paternalism to them. There's a a thought that these people are lesser beings than than us. But with some of that homophobia, it was more akin to something like anti Semitism, this hatred of the other. How have things changed since since then? I mean, we certainly don't hear that type of stuff in the media anymore. There was during that 16 months while the bill was in parliament. This huge debate and part [00:31:00] of that was a massive coming out process by lesbians and gay men, Uh, two families and bosses and sports teams and in the pub so that over a period of time, quite a high proportion of gay people, uh, revealed themselves. And so people found they knew they had known forever. Uh, gay people and [00:31:30] they Yeah, it wasn't they weren't. You know, it wasn't such a thing to be afraid of. And and then there were these, like, day after day in the newspaper and on television. There'd be items, uh, about the debate or, um, people taking positions on the BA debate or things that we managed to, uh, encourage newspapers to publish, you know, biographical stories of different people who had been successful or, um, in other way, in other ways. [00:32:00] Uh, engaging, uh, so that there was this. There's some change around in in the culture with regard to gayness and a Dimi of fears. It was a remarkable time for social change in respect of sexual sexuality in General, I think. And if you compare now, I mean most things have happened. In a sense. We we've had homosexual law reform. In [00:32:30] 1993 they changed the Human Rights Act 2005. You get civil unions, maybe not marriage, but basically the same thing. How much more is there to be done? Well, I think it's interesting. I mean, I. I have no particular brief for for marriage. I'm not sure that it's an institution the state should get involved in at all. Might be better to simply repeal the marriage act. You are a celebrant. I think I'm prepared to. I'm prepared to to marry people or give people civil unions. [00:33:00] And but I I don't see why the state should be involved in it. Um, that seems seems a bit superfluous, really. But if the state is going to say that some people can get married, I think it's outrageous that other people cannot get married. And the fact that there is this difference in in an in an institution, which is said to be very important, you know, we we we say that marriage is important. Uh, but, [00:33:30] um and that's why they didn't want to give gay the opportunity to marry. What do you think are the major challenges going into the future? I mean, what? There's two things which, which which are seem important to me. Schools. High schools are horrible places on the whole for queers, and that's because they do not take seriously their responsibility, [00:34:00] uh, to provide a safe place for all their students to be educated. There are exceptions to that. There are some a few very good schools. But in a climate where kids are learning about their own sexuality, there is likely to be some bullying and a school without a strategy to deal [00:34:30] with. Bullying on uh, homophobic grounds is dangerous and is leading to depression suicide among kids. You can't do the work without a place where in schools where kids feel that they can escape from that homophobia and where they can start to fight against homophobia. I guess there's another [00:35:00] set of things which is a change from the world that I was brought up and and that is that there are a whole lot of other ways of being non straight that are becoming more and more frequently expressed more and more frequently, uh, talked about and so on. So there's there's a lot more, uh uh, trans people, [00:35:30] uh, young Trans people who are experimenting with their gender or changing gender, and and this is something which we've got to give a lot of attention to. That was Bill Logan, who played an active role in the campaign that saw the Homosexual law reform bill become law 25 years ago. And as Bill was saying, there's one of the one of the most of the most noticeable changes since the passing of the act is the growing visibility of people [00:36:00] who identify as transgender. Felicia Brown Acton is a professional Polynesian entertainer and coordinates the New Zealand AIDS Foundation's HIV prevention programme in the South Pacific. She identifies as a cook Island, Samoan and and as and the traditional terms for transgender people in Samoa and Tonga. Earlier this week, Jeremy Rose asked Felicia when she first realised her gender defied easy [00:36:30] categorization. My first day at school when I went to school and I was faced with the boy's toilets and the female toilets and, you know, I watched all the boys go into one toilet and all the girls going to the other. So I thought, Well, I'm a girl, so I'm going into the female's toilets. And it wasn't the reality. Didn't actually, you know, I mean, as a five year old, it still didn't dawn on me Exactly why III I was different or it didn't come to that conclusion at that point in time. But when the teacher actually pulled [00:37:00] me by the scruff of my collar and said, You can't go into the toilet because you are not a female, you are a boy. And you know, I was distraught. My mother had to come and pick me up from school, and I guess, actually, in terms of identifying to to my cultural terms, I mean, I was quite fortunate that we went back to the to every year, and I spent a lot of time in the Pacific growing up. Um, and I was lucky that those are the only terms that I knew of which [00:37:30] were my cultural identity terms. I mean, I didn't actually understand what gay or lesbian or bisexual transgender was until I was probably around about 18 or 19 when I hit the nightclub scene. and you've lived in a lot of different countries. How How do they compare? As far as being a transsexual in those countries, I mean, have you faced discrimination? Well, not discrimination, I guess. More so than violence. But, I mean, I guess it's, [00:38:00] I guess if you're in a place at the wrong time IE in a nightclub where people have, uh, you know, a drinking alcohol. Those are sort of the only times that I have actually faced some form of violence or discrimination against who I am as an individual. And a lot of that comes down to ignorance and also because they're blurred with or mad with, um with, um, alcohol that, um, that sort of factored into to part of the issue. But, you know, um, I think [00:38:30] in countries, especially particularly Melanesian countries, there is a lot of discrimination and violence. Um, obviously because of their traditional and cultural beliefs. But personally, I think for me only those are the only instances that I've actually faced some form of violence or discrimination. I've probably faced it a lot more in westernised countries than I have in the Pacific. Or what is the situation in you know, in New Zealand, for example. Well, I think because we tend to be be be defined by so many [00:39:00] labels and categories and boxes and whatever you want to call them, you know, going into a woman's store, trying on clothing, public transport, legal documentation, you know, calling customer services and or going through drive through where you're not face to face with people and people you know, referring to as sir. And and I'm not probably the most, um, masculine looking transgender person. But you still do get people that pinpoint you and pick you out. [00:39:30] And, you know, they often would call you names or what have you not, but I mean, I guess, um, the older I get, um, the easier it has become for me. But, I mean, there has, I think every, um, gay lesbian transgender person has lived some form of ridicule or or discrimination or name calling or or form of violence throughout their lives. And these are key things, especially around the law reform and 25 years of it in New Zealand that, um, [00:40:00] it remains in place and that there are actually laws that protect people because especially the LGBT communities in New Zealand. Because if those laws were factored and law reform didn't happen, then there probably would be a lot more senseless murders and crimes of violence against, um, these types of people, people like myself. How difficult was it you mentioned at five. And so? So it became an issue from your first day at school? Literally. But how difficult was it going through the school system? Oh, I had no support. There were no support services [00:40:30] for anybody like me. You know, I. I practically went through my whole high school, um, life wearing a hoodie because I didn't want people looking at me because I felt like they didn't understand me or, you know, and nobody could support me and I. I went from school to school, to school, to school, and there was honestly no support. Nobody understood who I was. It wasn't actually until I in my teenage years started going to nightclubs. And even though nightclubs back then, you had to be 21. But [00:41:00] I, I was hitting nightclubs at quite an early age. Um, that I actually started to find support systems within within communities like the transgender community or the community, Um, and being a person and the only transsexual or out there in in in the open, you know, I had no support systems. I mean, I got what I got from my family who were very supportive, but in terms of actually understanding me, understanding what I was all about or having a similarity [00:41:30] with other people similar to myself, you know, that's kind of really where I found support systems and actually started to understand my identity in general. And that identity is a very Pacific identity, and you've been working in the South Pacific. What is the situation? I mean, there's been progress towards law reform in Samoa, for example. Currently, um, homosexuality is illegal in Samoa. It's quite odd considering Samoan culture is historically tolerant of homosexuality [00:42:00] in general. The association is actually proposing for change on the Crimes Ordinance Act to legalise certain activities they see as infringing on the human rights this year, and they had a two day conference to explain to its members why they have submitted for some changes. The association aimed at amendments to laws against some sodomy, uh, indecent acts between males and fe also female impersonation, among others. Um, the association [00:42:30] submission also, um, will be made with the law reform Commission, who they have consulted with, um, and currently finalise. Um I think the final documents which will be sitting with parliament to actually, um, ratify and revise and what have you not and move forward with the new law for? For the listeners, What is a Well, I'll give you a snippet out of the gay travel guide on the Internet about the definition of, um, what [00:43:00] is And then I'll give you mine. According to Gay Travel Guide, which is per country per country, giving people obviously who are who are, um, from the LGBT Rainbow family and it states in particular. There is a tradition of raising some boys in a family as a girl in order to play an important domestic role in Samoan life. Such transvestite males are known as, but their role does not easily [00:43:30] equate with Western gayness. This tradition means that there is widespread acceptance of the transgendered Now, I actually would differ with that example of what is first and foremost is a Samoan. The actual term has history within the language, so dating back before colonisation. There was an actual term that defined a group of of individuals, um, within [00:44:00] their language within their society or village placement back in those times. Um, so to actually refer to them with medical terms is actually something that confuses a lot of people, Um, and trying to fit them in with western categories. It actually doesn't actually explain truly who are in general. They actually do have a place in society. The Prime Minister, in fact, is the patron I think of the society. [00:44:30] I mean, he's also a very proud patron of of this association for he, um, in his opening address this year at the, uh, national vocational training, she spoke about the feminine traits about, you know, their cave muscles, always giving them away and why Men, um, tend to be attracted to their, um, feminine looks with their bright coloured lipstick, but also the importance of the role that they play within society also within families and how they tend to look after their family, um, [00:45:00] their families and extended families and also the charity work that they do a lot in Samoa of. And he he urged real strong messages of support towards them and that they are no different in any way that they're a very important part of the infrastructure of Samoa in or both culturally and traditional. So how important is this kind of change in the law? Because what you're describing sounds like an incredibly tolerant society. But the law less so, Yeah. And, you know, I think the last time that a female impersonation law [00:45:30] had actually been someone was actually sentenced for the actual law dated back something sometime early in the early sixties. But from what I have been able to capture that they didn't actually see, uh, they weren't sentenced to two years, But in saying that in general, these laws still remain and they actually infringing on on their human rights in general. Um, and a lot of, um, actually don't realise that these laws actually still exist. And so what's the story in the wider Pacific? I mean, do you have I know that in Tonga you've got, I think [00:46:00] is is this common throughout the Pacific and and what's the legal situation around the Pacific? Yeah, I think it's also important to remember that male to male relationships are not legal and and also punishable by imprisonment in the following nine Pacific island nations. They are the Cook Islands, Kiribati, Nauru, Palau, Papua New Guinea, Samoa, Solomon Islands, Tonga and Tuvalu. 13 countries and territories in the Pacific do not criminalise [00:46:30] men who have sex with men and in those countries where it is criminal. Is a blind eye in general turned or or do you actually have cases of people being legally discriminated against? Yeah, and I think this is the argument that comes down to things such as human rights issues versus versus cultural and traditional rights, also religious views and rights versus international treaties and endorsements. So I think sometimes cultural and traditional rights can counteract the human right and [00:47:00] also the religious views. And rights can also turn a blind eye because of cultural and traditional rights and and the roles that these certain individuals play. But for example, in Fiji, the case between um Thomas Macos, who was a 55 a five year old Australian man, and Narendra Naan, who was a 23 year old Fijian, that actual case in itself sparked huge media outcry and especially from from the [00:47:30] community who are the, um, LGBT community in Fiji because that sodomy act was actually enforced. Um, and and they they actually was, um, put in prison. But I think if it was probably the naan guy and another local Fijian male having sex, it probably would have had a blind eye turn to it. But the simple fact that there was a tourist there who who was perceived as a, um, Western, gay or Australian [00:48:00] man, um, and because of what they were doing was actually quite public. And the pictures that they had actually been taking of one another, um, in a private apartment actually became public. Um, that's when the law was actually enforced. So, um, you know, the the rituals and the II, I guess you would call them rituals or, um, cultural practises that you know, for instance, in Samoa, um, young boys have experienced sexual experiences with, [00:48:30] and it's normally a a right, a right of passage in order to get some form of sexual experience before they go off to find their their female partner. And and it's not always necessarily penetrative. Um, but those are kind of the examples. I'm trying to get across as as how those cultural rights of passages, you know, sexual passages. Actually, um can kind of counteract the more so tourists coming in country and exploiting, [00:49:00] or it's being seen to be exploiting, um, um, sodomy or practising sodomy. And that's where it becomes an issue. Um, because it it may look like it's interfering with what they believe in as a silent form of toleration or acceptance. So we've we've got law reform happening in SA. What about those other countries you mentioned that? Yeah. Um, actually, I'm not too too too familiar. I know that the Cook Islands actually take a very strong stance against human rights principles, international human rights principles, principles [00:49:30] full stop. They actually believe that, um, human rights principles that are detrimental to their cultural and traditional beliefs and values. Um, so they're always on the forefront of, um, a lot of allegations and accusations around them, not adopting any human rights, um, principles into things such as health. Um, and also with the other. The other countries, such as Kiribati, Nauru, Palau, the Micronesian type, um, countries, I'm not too familiar with them. I don't think [00:50:00] too many people are familiar with them. The legal situation in Fiji, um, is that they've actually passed legislation in Fiji, Um, as of first of February 2010, where they actually are the first Pacific island nation, Um, with colonial era sodomy laws to actually formally decriminalise sex between men. So that is, um, a significant step towards actually one major thing achieving their country's universal access goals. Um, hence, [00:50:30] um, I think Samoa has kind of taken place in terms of, um, following in the footsteps because they also want to commit to their universal access goals. And I think Tonga are on the verge of moving forward also with the Tonga Association wanting to also look into the laws that could criminalise them also. And and they have a royal patron I believe they do. They're, um, Her Royal Highness Princess um, her [00:51:00] eldest daughter, the Honourable, is actually the patron of the Tonga LA association. Um, and they've played an integral part in actually supporting to, uh, to or in general, um, and and showing the mainstream Tonga Society that that ladies are not actually the Children of the devil, which often a lot of people refer to them in Tonga as, um but they're actually, um, you know, [00:51:30] citizens of Tonga that actually contribute to society and that they need to be supported and embraced. And, um, I think she is also one of the ones that's had key, um, discussions with the Tonga LA association about, um, addressing these laws that, um that that do not that that are in breach of their human rights, et cetera. And that was Felicia Brown Acton of the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, speaking to Jeremy Rose. And that brings to an end that look at the 25th anniversary of the homosexual [00:52:00] law reform legislation.

IRN: 475
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/dym_hui_introduction.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003910
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089204
TITLE: Hui introduction - Decolonise Your Minds hui
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Giang Pham; Meng Zhu Fu; Wai Ho
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Giang Pham; Meng Zhu Fu; People of Colour Decolonisation Hui; Ponsonby Community Centre; Wai Ho; activism
DATE: 4 February 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Ponsonby Community Centre, 20 Ponsonby Terrace, Ponsonby, Auckland
CONTEXT: Introduction to the hui from Giang Pham, Wai Ho and Meng Zhu Fu.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um, I'd like to pay our respects to way above, and and, um, pay respects also to, uh, their Children even more, um, respects also to, um, and also the life force in this area. Um, we welcome to all our ancestors three of us in the room today who enable us to be here [00:00:30] and who looked at us always. Um, yeah. Welcome, everyone. Thank you so much for coming. Um, we're just gonna give a bit of background, I guess about ourselves. And so you kind of, you know, you may have seen our emails. Some of you may not ask, but just kind of Yeah. What? What? Why? We kind of call for this. Um, yeah. And then we will kind of do a fairly brief but not so brief round of, um, [00:01:00] our names and yeah, I, I guess. Just kind of what's brought you here. So what's what's been important has made you give up your weekends weekends to kind of handle this. So who's next? Um, I I'm just gonna give a little bit of background history to how this came about. It was, I think, in 2008 there was a and who [00:01:30] that happened in Auckland and some of us were there. And I guess we realised that, um, it was a very white dominated movement. And some of the discussions around white privilege wasn't really adequate and really addressing some of the racism and the present in a. So we decided to have a, which was called the And [00:02:00] the Acronym Stands for Women Engaging in Radical Decolonization, which happened in 2008. End of 2008 as well. And 2009. It was a while ago, so yeah, and that had about maybe 12 participants. And it was really novel to be in a space, um, to be discussing issues as people of colour [00:02:30] and without having mediated or like mediating that discussion. So that's what we're hoping to achieve with this one is to continue those discussions and dialogues and hopefully build more solidarity around those struggles. Oh, my name is, by the way. Cool. Cool. So, um yeah, and [00:03:00] And my name is Y for those who, um, I guess the, you know, there there are some, uh, so I like to call them ground rules, but but kind of a framework in which, um would like to have the space. Um, and I think they're in your programme. Yeah. Yeah, they are. OK, so, um, that's just to possibly, um, [00:03:30] catch too many moments that might be unsafe and ensure that this is a safe space for most that we participate in, um, while while that's there, we also acknowledge that, um, the three of us are from, uh, really, um, Asian background. And so there are stuff that we might miss. Um, and we're open for you to, um, come up and approach us about that. And we're open [00:04:00] to feedback about that as well. And how we can do that, we can pretty much guarantee you that we will have missed something. So we're really open to having to talk about it, because I guess we Yeah. We're really keen to kind of grow our stuff as well, so yeah.

IRN: 437
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/snapshot_2000_name_withheld_1.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004101
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089395
TITLE: [name withheld 1] - Snapshot 2000
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; Amsterdam; Netherlands; Snapshot 2000; coming out; family; gay; growing up; sex; sexuality
DATE: 20 January 2000
YEAR: 2000
LOCATION: Amsterdam, Amsterdam, Netherlands
CONTEXT: In this podcast [name withheld] talks about coming out and first sexual experience.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, I guess I first realised I was gay when I was about 14. You know, when you first get your sexual, um, um, development or something. And, um, I realised I was fantasising about men rather than girls. I felt very confused about that because, um um well, it made me feel a bit of an outcast in high school and all that stuff because all my mates were getting the girlfriends and and I tried to to to go along as well, because there were actually quite a number of girls [00:00:30] that that were attracted to me and approached, made, made approaches. Uh, but I was, you know, sort of fended it off or kept it away. So I For the first, I guess 4 to 5 years, um, I was convinced it was just a phase in puberty and it would pass. After I'd I'd I'd grow older. But when I grew older and like 18. 90 now, I realised it wasn't going to be going to pass, and I still hadn't told anybody, and I wasn't even willing [00:01:00] to to accept it for myself. So I still had this big secret. I remember. I always thought uh, Carrie, this is really big secret with me that nobody knew and not even my parents or or anybody. And And that actually made me more of an outcast rather than, um, being gay. I guess it's because, um, I I became a bit secretive and a bit evasive. And, um, I didn't feel like I really was part of, of Of, of the group of friends. Because [00:01:30] because of this big secret. And that continued until I was, like, 24 25 when I first came out. And, um, all the time between 14 and 24 I never ever, uh, had either a girlfriend or a boyfriend. Um, never had sex either. I didn't dare, because I it took me that long to to get to terms with myself. And, um, I even, you know, III I was living in Holland, Um, when I was 14, uh, in in a small town [00:02:00] south of the country about 100 kilometres south of of Amsterdam. And yeah, it was a very protected, uh, protective family, I guess. Um, we we'd been living abroad quite extensively before that. So, I I I'd seen you know, quite a bit of the world. And in that sense, I was, um, well developed or or or or had an all round view of of of of life. Uh, but I guess my my background is a bit conservative, and [00:02:30] I felt very much like I had to live up to the expectations of my parents. My father is a very successful businessman in the Netherlands, and, um, he was, you know, he achieved a lot. He was, uh, a known figure in In in Holland. And, um, I felt I had to, um, equal that, at least, and being gay didn't fit in that picture at all. So, um, I wasn't happy with that. And then when I was 18, No, [00:03:00] I was 19. I went to America to college and went to to college in Massachusetts for a year. And then I came back to Holland when I was 20 went to business school in Holland. Went through that, and that was very conservative, Uh, very much like the, uh, the Ivy League kind of business school. Um, 14th century castle. All that stuff. Um, and there appeared to be a lot of homosexuality on the campus as well there because it was like a very closed, uh, environment [00:03:30] with a lot of, uh, a lot of men. And, um uh, but homosexuality was an absolute taboo. So that sort of reinforced my, uh, my own feelings about homosexuality and, um, and and and confirmed that it was there was something very bad and something you had to be very secret about. So, um, I went through, um, the business school for three years and graduated and went back to to the States and had my first job in New York. And I lived in New York in Manhattan for two years and again, [00:04:00] you know, it was a very, um, um, very accessible gay environment. And I could have easily, um, started experimenting and finding things out. But as I was working for the consulate, which again was a very sort of, um, conservative, uh, environment. Um, I didn't dare to to do anything in and actually, what I what happens? I got, um, There was this girl in New York, a Dutch girl that I met, and she fell in love with me. And I really, really loved her for being a mate. [00:04:30] And we got along very well. So for the for the outside world, we were a couple and we show up at all the parties that that we got invited to through the consulate and with the with all the diplomatic corps and all stuff. And, um, we were like, the perfect couple we were. We were very good friends, and we had very, you know, very common interests. And she was absolutely charming and and and very entertaining to all the people that I had to entertain in in that job. And, um so we were, like, really, really the perfect couple. [00:05:00] And and then I remember I. I felt like Oh, God, if only I was I was straight II. I would have found my perfect match. I would marry this girl, But then at one point, she, um she wanted more. She wanted sex, and that's that. That was actually the point where I I She was probably the first that I told that I can't get you what you're looking for and and we have to, you know, we have to stop this because I can't make you happy. I can't. I can't. Um I can't be the person that you deserve. And we did have sex once, [00:05:30] and it was awful. It was absolutely awful because, um, she was taking all the initiative, and I just let it happen because, well, I mean, I thought she deserved it basically. And, um and I was very confused as well. And after that, I just cried and cried and cried because that, I guess, was the point where I realised that I was gay and was not going to change. I went home to Holland and I had Christmas with my parents, and then we had a New Year's [00:06:00] party. Um, I remember I was dancing with my sister at that party, and I was sort of saying things like, um well, you know, this is not really the me that I am or something like that. Something very cryptic and my sister answered, But rain? I know already. You don't have to tell me, but I never I never I never used the word homosexual, homosexual or gay or anything. I just I was very, very cryptic at that time, and then when I flew [00:06:30] back to to New York, I decided I was coming. I had to come out So I called my parents, um, from New York, and I spoke with my mother on the phone, and that's when I told her, and she she said, Well, you know, I, I guess so much. And Marie Elaine, my sister, um, she had she had talked. She had told what what? What I talk to her about, um, while dancing at New Year's, and, um but she was actually very accepting, and she was just very, very [00:07:00] worried that, um was coming back. She said, Well, you're now in New York and you're in that environment where it's all very OK and very very, um, won't give you any problems. But when you come back to Amsterdam, or when you come back to Holland, you'll find a very different environment. And she was very, very worried, worried, And it would actually, you know, harm my career perspective. And as as you would expect from from parents like I have and um um, and she was very protective, really. She she was She felt very [00:07:30] worried for me. Um, but also very, um, very disappointed, I guess, in a way, because I'm the heir of the family and I need to keep the family name and all that stuff. And, um, I wasn't going to do that. Um, and what makes it worse is later my my brother is homosexual as well. So, um, I've got one sister and one brother, and, uh and he's He's seven years younger than I am. Um, so he's 27 and he only came [00:08:00] out last year during the gay games in Amsterdam. Uh, although everybody knew he was gay, but he he had he had even a worse struggle than I had because I I grabbed the only opportunity to come out away from him because, in his view, there was. You know, even one gay person in the family is too much, let alone two gay persons. Um, he he hated me for being gay because first, it reminded him of being gay. And second, because I took away the only opportunity he saw [00:08:30] to come out in our family. But now, um, he's changing rapidly, and, uh, we were the best of friends, and, um, we feel very close to each other again. We always felt close, I guess. I mean, we we never we never felt, um, there was never, never like a break in our in our in our brotherly relationship. But it was. It's definitely more open now and more close in the sense that we can really talk about things that were taboo before. And he has become so much more [00:09:00] at ease and more mature and and and he's he's giving the same experience as I am that that that there is really nobody that that that will drop you for being gay or or like you less. And if if if they would, then they probably weren't your friends in the first place. I was having dinner with this girl with a girlfriend once, one evening and and I told her about my being gay and she was completely shocked. But she was more shocked by the fact that I [00:09:30] had kept it secret for 10 years and hadn't done anything with it. And I remember it was in was in the in the in the, um, in the centre of Amsterdam and we strolled home and I sort of strolled through the gay district. Um, you know, I guess unconsciously, um I. I wasn't I. I mean I. I knew what I was doing, But I wasn't sure what I was planning or what what I was doing. And anyway, I told her about this gay the gay street. And I told her where the gay bars were. I knew all that, but I just hadn't been in any any I didn't [00:10:00] dare. And then at one point she was just like, OK, right, well, this has got to stop. And she just literally grabbed me by the arm, like, grabbed me in the neck and just pulled me into one of the the bars and I was completely shocked. I was like, Oh, my God, I can't be seen here and I can't come and go in. And it was It was, But it was wonderful, really. And she It was a very nice place. It Luckily, it was one of the best and a very mixed place. A very happy and upbeat place. And, um, I had a wonderful time, and that [00:10:30] sort of pushed me over the brink. And, um, after I was I was basically OK. II. I started going out and meeting boys and and my first boyfriend and who was, uh uh How you say who was a was a was a bum was a completely wrong guy. The first guy that that, um, approached me in one of those bars with a remark that that sort of triggered um triggered my thinking that he had a similar background because he, he he invites me. It was the opening line. He invited me for a round of golf the next [00:11:00] day, and I was like, Oh, he's, uh He's probably from the same background as I am, but he was I forgot he was, like, 12, 12 or 13 years older than I was, and he was completely bum. He lived off me for a year and completely exploited me. But I guess it was good for me to to to to to go through that because it taught it taught me a lot as well. And then soon after that, I, I, uh I met more guys and got got, you know, I had more boyfriends, and I guess what happened is that, um I moved in. I moved from being, [00:11:30] um, a single unexperienced rookie. Uh, as far as sexuality goes straight into having relationships with men and I missed this whole episode of, um of of infatuations and of puberty, sexual puberty, uh, and and and, um, well, basically living it off and stuff like that. So that came later when I when I met my current boyfriend, with whom I've been living now for almost eight years. And, [00:12:00] um um, in the beginning, it was a very, very monogamous relationship because I wanted it that way. I wanted I wanted the perfect answer to a straight couple like, um, successful young yuppies, married and living in a beautiful house in Amsterdam and and all that and, um, I I you know, I want to I want to copy the life of my parents, I guess, with this guy. But then I soon discovered I needed to I I needed I needed to catch up everything I missed. So, um, [00:12:30] I did that later, um and we both did. I mean, it was it. It's a very open relationship. And we, um we we agree with that completely. Both of us. It was the first time I reached out and actually met a guy with the intention of having sex with him, which was, which was very, um, strange and exciting and and and and and anxiety as well. At the same time, I was like, completely nervous. And, um, we met on the street and we went into a bar, [00:13:00] and I remember that the cloak lady was a psychic. And she's like, Oh, I feel good vibes here. And it was all very IIII. I saw good signs and everything, you know, not even those kind of things. And it really clicked. I think he was working for some French cognac firm in New York and we decided to go home to my place. And I think what we did is just cuddled and and and and touched and and and stroked a bit, which was already all the way for me because I never I never [00:13:30] touched a man. I never I never dared to look at a man naked. And, um, I remember we were naked that that that that's for sure. And, um, I immediately invited him into my life through a, um, a concert which was going on, uh, that next day or two days after that, and I said, Oh, you have to come along with me and, you know, for me, he was that was it He was my boyfriend now, um, And and he said, Sure, sure, sure. And, um, I think I gave him my number. I don't think he gave my number. He [00:14:00] gave his number to me, and of course, he never called. And I couldn't reach him. And I was devastated. For for weeks. I was like, I felt so. I don't know, let down. It's like, this is this is this is this was this was supposed to be my dream come true. And and And, um But I felt I think I felt I felt very devastated about his just standing me up. Um, but I think I felt I've also felt good about having done this, [00:14:30] and I didn't feel ashamed. I didn't feel any negative feelings about that I I can't recall. No, I don't think so. I think the first time I had sex, real sex was with this guy I met at a bar. The my first boyfriend. Um, there's an older guy and, um yeah, I think I, I think the first night when we met, um, he brought me home and we kissed in the car and we fumbled a bit. I can't [00:15:00] remember how it was and how I felt. It's It wasn't It wasn't great. I mean, obviously, I had to learn everything. And, um, it must have been great then for me. But, um, I've I've learned so much ever since I've grown so much. I'm a completely different person now, And, um, I can't really relate to that person anymore. I was it 899 years ago, 10 years ago. And, uh, if anything, um, it [00:15:30] was just such a relief to to come out. It was like this huge weight to fell off me. And, um, I could finally start being myself and and and getting to know myself and and and grow and learn and and be feel confident and or become confident. I wasn't I wasn't this feeble shadow of of myself anymore. It was me. I didn't have any secrets anymore. I. I really didn't have any secrets and and I I and that actually made me a completely different person [00:16:00] in in being very extrovert and very open about what I felt and how I felt and and and what I thought and and what happened to me and very open to other people. And, um, that attracted a lot of people, too. And, um, I've completely changed from from being rather timid and shy and and And, you know, the the the guy who gets picked last, uh, at the gym lessons at high school, Um, to a very open, friendly, extrovert person with a lot of friends. Uh um, [00:16:30] very entertaining. And, yeah, a a person that a lot of people like I think coming out is something so personal. It's something that you have to come from within yourself. Um, I'm not. I'm not out there on a barrack Scream to everybody come out and show yourself. And I just, you know, for me, it's been one of the best things in my life, and I'm so happy I'm gay because being gay has made me a person who is in touch [00:17:00] with himself and and and still stands on on the on the on the ground with both feet. But, you know, if I hadn't been gay, I probably would have just led my life very unconsciously. Um, you never know what's going to happen. I mean, you you can't You can't talk about what is, but I feel that it would have taken me at least much, much longer to to start discovering myself and for and and finding out who I really am. And being gay per definition almost means that you have to go through this episode where you have to get [00:17:30] to terms with yourself and have to have a very sharp look at yourself and for me that makes a person so much more interesting somebody who's who's actually taken time to reflect and think about himself and what you want out of life and how you want it and in what way you want it. And you know who you really are. What, what makes you. And, um, I find that with a lot of gay men, Um, that that's what is common is that [00:18:00] you all have to go through this phase of coming out, which is very traumatic and very scary and and can be very unsettling because you're turning your whole life upside down at these. It was for me, and I think nowadays, um, because I I've noticed that gay men in the bars and and and and that are open and they're so much younger than than I was, um I mean, uh, they're like, II. I meet gay. I mean, I see gay people here in Amsterdam, which, of course, is a very gay city. Um, we are, like, 14, and and and and [00:18:30] they're openly gay, and they're openly gay at high school and all that stuff, and they don't It doesn't seem to be a problem at all. But for me, it's been it's been a very different and for me, it was very, very difficult to come to terms with it. But once I did it completely changed my life. And, um, I've noticed so much good come to me after I could be completely myself. Um, and my life has become so much better. And I've I've, you know, all the things I was afraid for They're all [00:19:00] false. They're all they're all, uh, concoctions. Is that what you say? Or with all They're all fittest things in my mind things that I've made up, um, which, you know, stem, Of course. From from I guess from from, uh, the way I was brought up. Uh, but they're not, uh, they're not real. Nothing to be really afraid of.

IRN: 436
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/snapshot_2000_john.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004100
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089394
TITLE: Snapshot 2000 - John
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1950s; Australia; Snapshot 2000; Sydney; coming out; family; gay; growing up; marriage; religion; sex
DATE: 19 January 2000
YEAR: 2000
LOCATION: Sydney, Sydney, Australia
CONTEXT: In this podcast John talks about coming out and first sexual experience.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I probably realised that I was gay before the age of 10. Um, never had the chance to order opportunity to explore it, Got married, had kids. And probably a few years into into marriage, when figure didn't work, I started exploring the gay side. Um, marriage ended. My ex-wife has not known about me and never will know. Um, [00:00:30] but my kids do, um, my youngest daughters in the lesbian relationship and quite open about it. Um, the first couple of experiences I had were at a beach, if you want to tell it that way, my knees were knocking. I was shaking. I was sweating. Um, I realised it was wrong, but I loved it. Um, [00:01:00] I got more warmth and affection, and I realised that there's some things that I liked. I've always liked looking at guys rather than women. All my life over I was married. Um, it's much easier now because, um I can do whatever I want and whatever I feel. And, um, life [00:01:30] is so much better because I get warmth, affection, compassion from a person which I can't get from anyone else from a guy that I can't get. Can I get from anyone else. Um, the tendencies are all there. You can't suppress them. Um, you'd walk down the street and you'd automatically look at guys. Um, you'd go to the movies and you'd sort of sit there and dream. Um, [00:02:00] the feelings are there, and they are very, very strong. Um, and you can't do anything about them. I mean, people think that they can overcome it, but you can't. It is just personal feelings and personal perceptions. It's like someone likes one type of car and someone likes another type of car. And some person just we say I don't like either of them. Um, it's just personal feelings and emotions. [00:02:30] Um, I used to go out by myself, and I ended up in a situation once when I went with a guy never looked back. Never, ever look back. I was probably married about 10 years at the time. There are a couple of people that I know who have just completely wiped me and just don't [00:03:00] don't speak to me. Don't have any contact with me. And other people that are straight in the straight world have just accepted me the way I am. Um, circle of friends has changed in the last few years. Um, real friends, which I can classify as real friends, have stayed, and [00:03:30] there are probably very, very few Probably less than five. Um, because your real friends will accept you no matter what you are. And no matter how you are, and that's what I found with my real friends, the rest of them are just, you know, people that pass by the coming out process. I basically tell the people that I feel I can trust and don't [00:04:00] tell the people that won't understand. My father is dead. Uh, my mother I have not told one she is European. Um, older person would not understand. It would totally go off about it and completely cut [00:04:30] contact. I don't Not that it worries me, but it sort of would hurt her feelings. Although at this stage there is a person that I am seeing that if I ever moved in with him, I would come out to my mother irrespective of what she felt. Irrespective of what she would say about it. I think she would blur, refuses, go completely [00:05:00] hysterical because, um, her background is very religious. Um, very naive no education whatsoever. She never went to school and she just can't understand. Uh, anything outside her stereotypical field. Things have got a natural order to her, and this is wrong. [00:05:30] Makes me feel that I want to live my life the way I want to live my life. I can't live my life to conform to other people's ideas because if it comes down to happiness, I've got to be happy. First. I can't please everyone else, and no one can please everyone else because no one has ever managed to make people happy. As soon as you you conform [00:06:00] to one set of standards, they'll change the standards and they'll want you to do something else.

IRN: 435
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/snapshot_2000_simon.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004099
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089393
TITLE: Snapshot 2000 - Simon
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; Snapshot 2000; coming out; depression; gay; growing up; religion; sex
DATE: 18 January 2000
YEAR: 2000
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Simon talks about coming out and first sexual experience.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I've always known I've been gay. Um, I've always been in some sort of denial about it, thinking that it was wrong, Um, all the way, basically, through college, especially, um, I was always picked on, and people continually call me and so forth, and it's something you not a nice experience, but you really got no choice about it. And I suppose I just keep denying it whenever anyone told me that, and I think that was kind of my way of denying it myself. Um, basically, [00:00:30] I've known ever since I was 12 or 13. Um, during school, I had girlfriends. I never slept with him. I only had girlfriends because it was a fashionable thing to do. And then I left college, and at the age of 19, I went off to Polytech in Auckland. And, um, I had a chat to a counsellor there because things are starting to get me down because I was feeling really lonely. I had no one no one knew about me in one night. Um, [00:01:00] the council, the council just said to me, perhaps you should start relying on people and letting them know what what happens. So I rang my best friend and we had a long talk. I ended up in tears on the phone and I told him I've got something big to tell you and I came out to him and he was a bit shocked, but he was totally cool about it. He said, Look, I don't agree with it, but because you're my friend, I'll stick by you and give you as much support as what you need And that was really good. [00:01:30] I had him as a sounding board now, and I basically talk to him about any issues I had. Um I I still had this, um, need to meet someone of companionship thing. And so I started originally by placing an ad in one of the Auckland Game magazines, and I got a few replies. Life was quite difficult because I couldn't give them my home address. Um, in case my parents found out who I was still same with at the time. So I started meeting people [00:02:00] and started making up all sorts of weird and wonderful excuses to why I was going out this time of the night and why I had to borrow the car and so forth and then one day I just thought I had enough of this. I need to let my parents know what's going on with me, and I think I was about 21 22 when I came out to them. I did it through a letter. The main reason for that was because I had so much I wanted to say, and I knew that if I told my parents face to face, I'd end up in tears [00:02:30] and I would not be able to get across what I wanted to tell them. So I went to work one day, and with the help of my friend, I had told a year or so before I drafted a letter up and put down all my ideas and everything. Um, all my life, I was brought up as gay people are very bad people. You don't want to be around them. Um, don't associate with them, and that really made it hard for me. In fact, I was quite positive I was going to be thrown [00:03:00] out of home. I remember one night, especially during the news. They did a piece on the Sydney Mardi Gras and my father said a comment and passing. I think they should all be shot. They don't deserve to live. And that's sort of not the thing you want to hear, especially from someone who you really need to tell about you. So quite naturally, I was very nervous. Um, I showed the letter to my mother and I burst the tears and she read it and she cried [00:03:30] and she said, I don't want you to tell your father And I said Yes, I wanted her to. And so I left the house and she showed him the letter, and I came back half an hour later and my father was in tears and we sat down and we had a big talk about it, and he's fine about it now. Um, I think a lot of people tend to have their views. And it's not until they actually meet um, a homosexual person, that [00:04:00] they actually realise that gay people aren't actually bad people. They're just you and I. You pass them on the street, and it's not until you actually know someone who you can relate to and who you can talk to. That it actually had, because all you ever seem to see on television are the other raving queens. Use the expression and the very camp and flamboyant people and that, especially if my parents did not give a good view of the gay community. Um, I then promptly went out and started telling my friends [00:04:30] I was sure I would lose some friends. I had five or six very close friends. I always made the issue out to be big myself because it was such a traumatic thing for me to do. But one by one. As I told them, they all said it was fine. I felt absolutely stupid, burst into tears and telling someone and giving them a hug, and they sort of looked at me and said, Well, what's the big deal? And I think now when I tell people I'm a lot more casual about it, [00:05:00] and I've sort of come to the realisation that if they like you, they will like you regardless of your sexuality. And if they're your friend, they will be there regardless. And I think no matter who you come out to, you've just got to take that risk and if they're there for you, they will still be there for you. And if for some reason they don't, I don't know if they're really that much of your friend in the first place. My first sexual experience was through an ad. I place, um I was [00:05:30] extremely, extremely nervous. I knew I always wanted to be with another guy, but to be quite honest, I didn't really know what to do or how to go about doing it or how I should feel. I can always remember the ride driving to this guy's place. I was just shaking I. I knew I wanted to do it, but I didn't know what I would do when I got there. And we ended up just kissing for about two hours solid. And we both ended up with really sore lips. And [00:06:00] that was my first encounter. I saw this guy again. I. I don't know why, but we contacted each other again and we managed to fumble around. I suppose you'd call it, Um, we both took off all our clothes and played with each other, and but that was the extent of what happened. It's just the thing. Once as you get older and the more you do it, you you learn what you like, and you tend to head more towards that. But in those early days, [00:06:30] I really had no idea. Um, I had a lot of conflict, um, doing it simply because I had always been brought up a Christian, and it was always, always a big issue. I've I've done the wrong thing. I felt really dirty really bad. Um, at the time, my parents did not know and there was no one really I could talk to. I could talk to my best friend who I came out to, but as he [00:07:00] wasn't gay, he really had very little interest and wasn't really into listening about me and my first gay sexual experience. It took a while for the bad feeling to go. But once the feeling of guilt went and I actually started realising, Well, the hell I I did actually enjoy it. It made me feel a lot better. My message would be definitely do it. But be very careful. Um, it is a great thing when it goes smoothly, But don't [00:07:30] rush into it. If you are not sure, don't do it. But if you are sure your life will my life will particularly change very drastically because I had the support of the people behind me and give people the benefit of the doubt. I was absolutely positive I would lose my parents and most of my friends and I haven't lost a single person yet. And through people I've talked to, no one I know has actually lost anybody through telling them [00:08:00] the letter idea is a very good idea. I found it worked for me. You get all your ideas down on paper and you don't fumble. You don't get upset, but everybody's different.

IRN: 434
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/snapshot_2000_regis.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004098
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089392
TITLE: Snapshot 2000 - Regis
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; France; Paris; Snapshot 2000; coming out; depression; growing up; rural; sex; suicide
DATE: 17 January 2000
YEAR: 2000
LOCATION: France, France, Europe
CONTEXT: In this podcast Regis talks about coming out and first sexual experience.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So as for me, um, I realised, quite soon, uh, I was different from all the guys. Um, in fact, uh, as I was six years old, I noticed that there was It was the only guy in my school to have just, uh, girlfriends. I had no boyfriends. Um, so I I noticed it, and I couldn't say what was different was me. But, er [00:00:30] it does so So I accepted it. And, um, several years later, when I was a teenager, uh, it became more obvious that something was different than me. Um, my friends, if I may use the word friends because, uh, I had no real friend at that at that time. I was OK with the other people, but, um, people used [00:01:00] to choose me as a friend, but I didn't choose people as friends. And that's quite different for me. So, uh, the people who were which were living with me, um, always speak about girls, and, um, they try to give them notes or things like that Say that girl seems quite wonderful. Er, she's, uh uh quite nice. I would give her a wonderful note. A or B or something like that. see, [00:01:30] uh, and as for me, I would have give give notes to two guys to boys, so that was quite difficult at that time, as I used to live at that time in the countryside in France. Um, you know, it was in the seventies and the seventies, and that time in France, it was quite difficult to speak about homosexuality. In fact, um, people didn't [00:02:00] really speak about it, and they knew it existed. But, um, the images that you had in films or in books about homosexuality was quite awful. Um, the people who who were supposed to be homosexual were always represented as, um, almost female guys. So when you you were not such a a guy, it was quite, er difficult to identify [00:02:30] yourself with such people. So when you had noticed you were homosexual or feel attracted to to guys, it was, uh, quite hard to to accept it. Still, I accepted it. Um, it became easier when, uh, I grew. I grew up, and, uh, I moved to to Paris, uh, for my studies. And then, uh, well, I quite dream a lot about [00:03:00] living in Paris. Uh, I wouldn't say it is a a game maker. But in fact, when you or you you used to live in a at the countryside, Paris seems to be something wonderful. So when I began my study in, uh, in Paris, Uh, it was the first time I could live on my own. I have my own room. I have my own things and, uh, be out of home [00:03:30] and living on my own. That's quite that was quite interesting and very interesting experience at the very beginning. Um, I was in, um what do you call it in France? An inter inter? I don't know. There's an English word for it. So, you know, it is when several people are, um, sharing a room where they're, um they are sleeping together. See? So, uh, at that time, at the very beginning, it was [00:04:00] quite hard for me because I was quite afraid to To have to dream to To sleep with other guys. Uh, I didn't know how I would react. Um, so I remember quite well that at that time, er, I made up my mind so that, um I woke up very early in the morning just to take my shower. Er on the alone and, er not to have to, um, [00:04:30] to cope with other guys and to trust, to see them under the shower. You see, sometimes it's quite difficult not to react. So, um and then, um, I had to cope with the military duty services. I don't know the right word for it, but in France we have to, um, to spend one year, uh, for a military service. So I did it. [00:05:00] I must admit, it was I was quite afraid also to to do it. See, when you have to share a life with, uh, many other guys from quite in quite nice, and it's difficult not to not to react. So But, um, everything was quite OK. So now there wasn't quite many problems. And then I've been able to [00:05:30] really live on my own. And that is to say, I had my real my own flat, which was quite awful and wonderful at the same time. Um, and at that time, it was in the middle of the eighties. Um, it was at that time that AIDS appeared and many people were talking about it as a homosexual disease or things like that. So [00:06:00] But the positive effect was that at that time, actually, people could speak about homosexuality, even if it was the bad side. But even they began to to speak about it. It was the very beginning. And, uh, at that time in the middle of the eighties, uh, I chose to have a a Mini what is I don't know if you you know what it is. But in France it is what [00:06:30] we can say is a sort of an ancestor for, uh, internet. And, um, that was quite interesting. You could dialogue first, right to people you you had no ideas about. It could be anywhere in France where the military existed and the dialogues with writings and phone them and then meet them. And that was quite interesting. [00:07:00] So, of course, there were specific such services for gays, so I used them, and, uh, it was my the first time I really met people who were feeling like me. So, uh, it was very interesting for me. Interesting. And, uh, sometimes, uh, I must admit, I was quite disappointed in as much as I didn't expect so many people to be, [00:07:30] um, to be sad to be to feel quite ill at ease with homosexuality. Um, I met several people who had already tried to commit suicide several times because of their homosexuality. I was I was quite surprised, because for me, um, it hasn't raised so many problems. I had accepted my homosexuality, even if I hadn't really [00:08:00] lived it at at that moment, as am I coming out? Well, what could I say? It's quite difficult for me to speak real about it. Um, and as much as I haven't made any coming out towards my parents, for example, uh, Except, uh, my sister, who is, uh, who knows everything about me and, well, everything a part of everything about [00:08:30] me. Um, my parents don't know anything about my homosexuality. Uh, that's my choice. Um, I know that they would have many difficulties to accept it. Um, I've tried to see how they would react, you know, just, um, talking about it from time to time. See what their point of view was about such a topic. But, um uh, they [00:09:00] have always considered homosexuality as a disease. So with time, I hope they that we change our mind. Er, at that time, it's still er life is so I haven't spoken to them. Still, I I think I'd be compelled to do to do it. Um, my boy, my boyfriend has, uh, has, uh, told everything to his parents. Uh, I've met them. They are quite wonderful people. And [00:09:30] I decided to move in South France French Riviera in quite a few months with my boyfriend. So I think I'll be compelled to speak about my parents about that. Um, even if I am quite sure that my mother wouldn't even believe it, and, uh, even if I didn't say anything, she would believe it's just a friend. Uh, even if I'm always telling her that, um, I'm always with him, in fact, so [00:10:00] but, er, when people don't want to understand, I think they they don't. So that's OK for me, and it's sometimes a little hard not to be able to speak about it. But, um, in as much as my very close friends are all knows or know all about me and uh, that's OK, because I've been able to to to do my coming out with my friends and I've been quite I really happy [00:10:30] to see that they have accepted it quite well. So I think I'm quite happy. I'm quite lucky. I wouldn't give any advice to anybody about coming out. I think there are no general purposes, general way to act in such a such a field. There are people who can tell it to their parents. And some wars and well [00:11:00] depends on each situation. In each case, I think it is always interesting when you can speak about it to the people you love. But it is not possible. Yeah, You've got always friends so friends and are wonderful things. That's my point. My first sexual experience was a, um it was not a good one. [00:11:30] It was, um, was a pianist. I met through the and, um well, it was the first time I accepted to meet someone in in his own flat. And just a few few minutes after coming in his flat, he helped me to to put my clothes off, and, um and he wanted to have sex with me. So [00:12:00] I was quite surprised, because for me, um, sex and love were connected, and it is not always the case. Uh, still, it is the case for me at the moment. Uh, I I've always thought thought and, uh, I still think that, uh, it's best to have sex when you love, um, the person you have sex with, but, uh, this chemist didn't think like this. So I I was curious. Uh, I wanted to know [00:12:30] what it was. I must admit it so, But at the same time, uh, as I didn't love really, that that guy, um, it it was quite surprising. It was like acting and, uh, being a witness of your act at the same time. See, um, that wasn't love at all. For me. It was something something physical, but, um, nothing else. So after that, um, must admit, [00:13:00] I didn't feel quite well. Um, I wonder why, Um if was was to be. So maybe, uh, I had to have no sexual life at all, but, um, I don't regret it.

IRN: 432
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/snapshot_2000_jerry.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004096
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089390
TITLE: Snapshot 2000 - Jerry
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1950s; Australia; Brisbane; Snapshot 2000; bisexual; coming out; gay; growing up; sex
DATE: 16 January 2000
YEAR: 2000
LOCATION: Brisbane, Brisbane, Australia
CONTEXT: Jerry talks about coming out and first sexual experience.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: The first recollection that I have of of being attracted to men, which probably sounds a bit considering that I know plenty of stra identifying men now who've had, like, mutual masturbation experiences with other men, and that's all it was. But for me, it always stuck in my head. It's been more significant than that. But when I was eight and I had been put in for six months at A a hospital, it was called the Xavier Home for Crippled Children, which sounds [00:00:30] more imposing than it really was. But I was being treated for asthma, but some of the other Children there were kids with real problems like thalidomide, babies and such. But the asthmatics tended to be a bit privileged, and you were a bit more mobile than the other kids you didn't have a wheelchair to worry about. For example, I remember, um, one of the other as many kids. John and I, and we had an arrangement where, um, [00:01:00] she used to loose at night. One would get up because we had a dormitory that was quite secure, like the nurses would only sort of tuck him into bed and then you'd see them in the morning. But get up, go to the loo. And if you wanted the other boy to come in, he'd cough. Which I've since found out, is, uh, not far off what happens in bee culture, but and we just feel each other's dicks and balls. And I just remember it feeling really [00:01:30] special and very enjoyable. That happened several times when I was in the Xavier home, and I don't think I had, like, physical contact again then with another man until I was probably, like, 16, 17. What was really useful for me being born in 1955 and then when I had an emerging interest in [00:02:00] socialising and music and life in general Outside of school, you had rock stars like David Bowie and Mick Jacket making bisexuality like a really acceptable, if not fashionable thing to be. So it was quite safe to say that it was great to be bisexual, and it was good to explore the sides of your sexuality. And I had friends of mine. Like my best friend from school was a man who came out to me once as having had sex with a mutual friend. [00:02:30] And when David told me that one night he'd showed me a record. And inside was a a note from the mutual friend Michael. And it said to David, Thanks for the wonderful time we had together last night all my love, Michael. And like, because they would just show me the album and he didn't say anything. But when I looked at it, I knew everything that was entailed in this. And I just remember shaking feeling, um, [00:03:00] a huge reaction because all of a sudden it wasn't just a topic anymore. It wasn't something that we all agreed was acceptable, but it was actually happening. And years later, um, when David and another girlfriend had had a big dinner party at their place. Uh, David said, because I was the last guest to leave, he said, We'd really like you to stay. You know, you should stay overnight. And I said, I know you know, I've got work tomorrow or such, but I'll be fine. And he said, No. [00:03:30] Linda and I would particularly like you to stay with us, and I had that same shaking feeling because it was, um, obvious that David had actually felt an attraction for me. like I'd always felt for him. But I'd never been able to actually put into words or into action. And it was a great night of fun, and it helped confirm to me that even though, like Linda being there, that was good fun. But for me, what made the whole [00:04:00] night was the fact that I was actually able to enjoy physically being in bed with and having sex with a man who was my best friend throughout high school and, ah, who is still a good friend of mine. Even though he's like the other side of the world away, a good part recently was through the Internet. I wonder if the Internet catching up with David and broaching the subject for the first time in like, 20 years, and that was just great to learn that for him, it had been something significant. It it had been wank fodder [00:04:30] for him over the last 20 odd years, even though he hadn't had sex with another man since that time. Coming out to my family was another matter. I think I'd been out to myself satisfactorily than from my early twenties, and I had, like my friend Michael who I bumped into occasionally through friends who was always a happy, confident homosexual man. And I think he was a good pillar to have a good reference point to know that no [00:05:00] matter how much life seems to change or where other people went in other directions, as in moving away from the bisexuality thing or becoming married and having kids. Michael was always there as a rock solid person who was happy to be gay, was never going to be anything else, but that he was a political activist and such. Ah, my friends could deal with the fact that I said that I had an attraction to men even though I didn't really live them out. I [00:05:30] know virtually no sex life, which is probably the only reason why I'm HIV Negative now. No sex life, really in my later to twenties, early thirties, but at home, I remember one time about seven more years ago, seven years ago, maybe now, well, I was standing to think that I was gonna have to start, including how I felt about other people sexually in my life. It was important for that to become an honest and active part of my life, and I was working for [00:06:00] the kitchen at home here one day, and I just have my father at the kitchen table with my brother and my mother. And he said, And we had one of them at work and he was OK and I just turned around and I said one. What? And he said, a queer and before I could stop myself, I said, Well, Dad, you've got one for a son. Oh, that's OK and walked out the front yard. And as I got out the front yard, I just felt my [00:06:30] heart to a bit louder and louder and louder, and I thought it was gonna collapse. But that was it. Like my father's been totally supportive ever since. My mother had always been supportive, but it meant then that I could start dealing with the issue with all the rest of my family and have had nothing but support nothing but good results from interactions with people. So since that time, when I contacted Michael again and [00:07:00] Michael was doing a radio show called Queer Radio I was up to. Then go and visit Michael, go to the radio show and start to talk to other men and realise that that being gay or being homosexual is a huge theory of things, and you don't have to be a particular person behave in a certain way. And even though I thought it was relatively informed, I don't think you can be informed enough about the nature [00:07:30] of the differences between people. So what I've got out of working now for the last six years on queer radio and by talking with literally hundreds of different men and women is an appreciation that it's more OK for me to be me. And I try to encourage other people, no matter how early they are in the coming out process, to just accept themselves and to not expect too much of themselves except that they are OK. My first [00:08:00] proper sexual experience, as in a deliberate sexual experience with another man alone, would have been with my friend Michael, and it was like a deliberate act I. I had gone to visit my friend Peter as it was. Peter and Michael were brothers. Peter was my good friend through high school, one of my very best friends, and I knew it was Peter's birthday I went to visit him, but Michael was visiting as well. [00:08:30] Wish Peter a happy birthday and offered Michael a lift home with the distinct idea in my head that Michael could be interested in doing sex. And as I dropped Michael off, not too far away from that house where he was living at the time. Oh, Michael gave me a kiss. Good night. And then he just leaned over and he put his hand on my leg. Let it slide down to my groyne. Stopped me going hard. And he said, [00:09:00] I think you'd better come inside. So even though we were a bit pissed at the time, uh, I remember it being enjoyable. Mark Such a a comfortable, friendly person. And he wasn't at all demanding. He was very patient, and it was good fun. I stayed the night, um, we had breakfast, fell out to his flat mates. It was a totally positive, enjoyable experience, [00:09:30] and there certainly wasn't even the expectation that more has to come of this. It was a case of This is a good thing for us to do. We'll do it and you know we'll see each other again because we're in the same social circles. But I thought that was a really positive way to start and to, uh, to go from there in terms of knowing that, like trust and friendship and enjoyment can go to sex. The advice that I would give to anyone who's thinking about coming out, [00:10:00] as in them coming out as being gay, lesbian, bisexual, whatever is to come from an informed position. And the best way to do that is to get books that are supportive. Right in Brisbane, we've got a couple of like, specifically supportive bookshops where you'll get gay and lesbian literature. I read books is one of them. And if you get books like I'm looking at books on relationships like Together Forever by Andrew Marshall that [00:10:30] I have in front of me at the moment, there are books on like gay and lesbian film like The Bent Lens. It's a wonderful book loving someone gay by Don Clark and by even reading books of short fiction and reading. How other people have either felt about the same sex or have fantasised about feeling is all useful, but to then realise that there is a huge range of things that can be [00:11:00] true or that can happen. And looking after your health is gonna be a consequence of knowing that you're worth looking after. I think one of the best books that I've read, The Homo Handbook by Judy Carter, is so valuable, I think, because it's so amusing as well, and I could see that that would be a good thing to get informed then to get active. Getting politically active is a useful thing to do. It doesn't mean that you have to be involved [00:11:30] in, say, the private collective forever. I know lots of people who've used the private collective as a a really important social tool, so I'll spend two or three years getting involved with the group, feeling confident about identifying as a gay man or lesbian, and the fact that the festivals attract several 100 people here like several 1000 even up to for the like the Fair Day events. It puts you in a good position to start, I think dealing with life better, [00:12:00] but that would be my recommendation, basically get informed so you know what to expect of yourself and the other people around you, and then take the step of actually going out and meeting other people who identify as gay.

IRN: 433
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/snapshot_2000_scott.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004097
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089391
TITLE: Snapshot 2000 - Scott
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; Australia; Snapshot 2000; coming out; family; sex
DATE: 16 January 2000
YEAR: 2000
LOCATION: Australia, Australia, Oceania
CONTEXT: In this podcast Scott talks about coming out and first sexual experience.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Basically, it's been something that I've always sort of felt. You know, Um, I never felt like I was anything different. You know, I've always been interested in boys, you know, from a very young age. Um, I used to collect pictures out of magazines, and I like the teen magazines like Smash hits and all that sort of thing. I used to collect the boy pictures and stick them in a diary and hide it from my mum. I used to stick it in this little journal and put it in. Um, put it out of my bed. Believe it or not, it's a silly [00:00:30] place to put it. My mum might have found it at some stage. Um, yes. And I sort of started dancing and doing entertainment type stuff, singing and acting when I was, like, nine. And that brought me out of my shell a little more. Um, and it was actually I had a performance one night. Um, and I had to wear this really bizarre chequered costume and there were some guys in the audience that were giving me hassles. They were calling out stuff, and, um, from the audience and stuff like that And [00:01:00] then it was actually in the car on the way home where my mother actually said to me, She says, You gotta be careful, you know, you can get yourself into trouble and Ra Ra Ra ra. And it was at this point, um, I think I was, like, 15 and ah, I was sitting there and I was like, gripping the handle of the car. And I'm just like, Oh, my God. Oh, my God. My was in my throat. My heart was turning 500 times to the minute to the minute, and I just sort of it sort of came out with it. I just it felt [00:01:30] right, so and I was nervous as hell. So I just did it. And I said, Mom, I'm gay. And her first response was Are you sure? And I said, I said yes, and probably one of the most empowered comments I've ever had in my entire life. And from there, yeah, Mom and I that was like about 10 o'clock at night. I think Mum and I stayed up till four o'clock in the morning just talking. God knows what we talked about, but we sort of we set [00:02:00] up chatting all night. You know, I sort of That was the first time I really poured my heart out to my mum about how I was feeling. Basically, Um, yeah, And after that, I sort of sort of dealt with the rest of my family. I suppose, Um, I didn't wanna tell my dad to start with My dad and I have never really had a fantastic relationship. Um, I was always a mummy's boy, which sounds a bit a bit, Um well, not it's not too bad. [00:02:30] Um, yeah. I've never heard they had a good relationship with my dad. Um, my brother was a very sports oriented person, so and as is my dad, So they had the sort of father son thing that was going on, and I'm just like, Yeah, OK, they can have that. And I was a little mummy's boy, which made me the the good cook that I am. I must say, she taught me everything she knows. Um, yeah. So I didn't want to tell Dad at first. And then Mum being mom, she, [00:03:00] um, likes to talk her problems out, and, you know, and how she's feeling and and chat. So she ended up telling my dad and my dad was quite shocked. And then Mum proceeded to tell the rest of the family, my grandparents and all that sort of stuff, and she would just tell me that she told them and I'd be like, Oh, thanks for that. Hm. Great. So, I, I really I had I only had to go through it once, um, when I was 15, so that was good. And I've had the support [00:03:30] of my family the whole way. I've had not one negative response from, um from my mum. My dad. My dad didn't understand it at first. Um, and it took him a couple of years to actually connect with me on the subject. I think we were actually watching a a programme on television one day, and some they had some gay issue on it. And I got up to leave the room because I really wanted to watch it and go into my bedroom and watch into my [00:04:00] room. And he said he actually said to me, No stay. We'll watch it. And I sort of looked at my mum and I think I started crying and it was like, Oh my God! So that was sort of the first time for Dad anyway, and that would have been about three years down the track. But anyway, back to my, um, back to my family, I said, No negative response from either set of grandparents or aunties or uncles or cousins or anything. Um, when I told my brother, Now this is a very funny story. I told my brother and he didn't believe me. He's like, You're such a bullshit artist, [00:04:30] and I'm going go and ask Mum, That was my my first sort of response was Go and ask Mum. And then I put out the outrage magazines and I said, Have a look at this. Why would I have these? And he didn't believe me to at at the start, I went through a lot a very, very hard time at school. Um, part of that was because, yes, I was a little bit effeminate. Um, I did do dance classes and singing classes, and, you know, that came across in my body language because I was, [00:05:00] um Well, as we grow, we adapt and we take on different things. Um, And as we learn different things we become who The people who we become. And, yeah, school is pretty bad for me in terms of the name calling and that sort of thing. Um, I look back now, and I think I really didn't want to be at school because of that. And in terms of my education, I don't [00:05:30] think I took in as much information as I probably could have or should have, Um, because of the fact that I didn't wanna be there. I spent a lot of recess and lunch time walking around the school yard by myself, and I was very isolated as a child, which is which is odd now, because I'm I'm very much a people person now, and I'll walk up to anyone and say hi, how are you going? Um, and I'm not shy anymore, but I used to be very much so. I used to be very, very scared of what people [00:06:00] thought of me and how I was perceived. Um, and that that actually is the one thing I think I had to get over in terms of me dealing with my homosexuality was being able to say I am me and I'm me because of everything that's happened in my life. And it doesn't bother me what you think because I'm a very special person, you know? And that sounds like I've had therapy, but I've had none. I'm just a very, [00:06:30] very smart person who knows how to put two and two together. Um, but yeah, so school school, I've sort of written off. I'm now 23 and it's been since 94 since I've left school and I keep in contact with no one I went to school with. I've basically left my hometown and got out and made something of my life. And it's very funny that I I hear on the grapevine through three different people through my brother and his friends, that their older brothers and sisters who I went to school with [00:07:00] are like, now married and have three Children and all this sort of stuff at like 23 which is which is a choice they make. But, you know, I just think, having known these people and having known their potential, um, I think some of it's very sad, But some of it well, if they chose that, then good for them. My first sexual experience. Oh, it was hideous. I think it was. [00:07:30] It was in a shopping centre. Believe it or not, it was just I look back now and I think, how could I have ever done it? But it was my first sexual experience, and it is as vivid now as it is not vivid. Vivid is not the right word. It is clear now to me now, as it was then and I I actually went to the public toilet, and I had a note slipped to me under the wall that said, I would like help masturbating. Can you help me? And I was like, Ah, OK, being the naive young idiot that I was, [00:08:00] So that was my first experience under the wall of a bloody toilet block. So yes, Um, my first real love making experience, I would have to say, was with a guy I actually went to school with. Um, we always sort of hung out together, um, for about year seven onwards, and I got to about year nine and we sort of, you know, we're in his his [00:08:30] place after school studying one day. And, you know, one thing led to another. And I remember that very, very clearly. It was probably one of the most scary, scary experiences I've been through in terms of having all the nerves and all the the excitement and the, um yeah, all that stuff that goes on there and having that reciprocated from this person and having that combined [00:09:00] and like just having him touch me and and touching his skin was it was mind blowing it. Yeah, I've gone off to la la land now, Um, but it really was mind blowing. And we spent the next what, couple of years fooling around together. He was my first. He was my sexual partner for about three years. Um, we basically learned to do everything together, um, and explored our sexuality [00:09:30] together. So in a way, I was lucky that I had that I I look back now, and I say we weren't boyfriends. Um, I think we were more ah, lovers in a way. And we sort of discovered our bodies together and and do that sort of stuff. And I got to a point where where I came out and II I can't. I took that step and then everything sort of changed for me in my life. It wa wa was no longer a big secret that I had to sneak [00:10:00] around and and do all this stuff. I could be open about it with my family and, well, not so much my friends, because I kept it to myself at school. I didn't. People are less speculated, but I think the difference between people speculating people knowing is a very big jump. Many people know something instead of speculating it. Things change dramatically. So I always try to avoid We try to avoid that big dramatic [00:10:30] jump because I didn't want things to get any worse. Um, so in terms of yeah. So in terms of my first love making experience, um, I had it lucky. In a way, um, I still keep in contact with this person now, and he's still very much in the closet. And as we say, um, bad enough about him. It's his life. I did some, um, work with the Victorian AIDS Council. Um, [00:11:00] um, I used to be a facilitator for a drop in group, um, for under eighteens, and I've actually been through the whole coming out thing with a lot of a lot of young guys and because I was always, um, the one that was out and had the knowledge I had guys crashing at my house when their parents kicked them out. And I've seen so many people make so many different mistakes, and so many people make some very good decisions. And I think the best thing for me [00:11:30] to say to someone who's thinking about coming out and it's gonna sound like an absolute cliche it's to, um, just follow your heart and go with your gut feeling. You know, it's like things will change the minute you say it out loud and I, I suggest saying it out loud to yourself until you believe it. Before you say that loud to somebody else. Um, but, yeah, things things change, your life will change dramatically. Um, [00:12:00] I, yeah, been a very long journey to get to where I am today. Very, very long journey and a very hard journey. But I look back now and I think, well, would I change it? That's the one question I po I still pose to myself. Would I change any of it? And I I the answer that I come up with is No. Because if I, I was to change one little thing one itty bitty thing that happened, I wouldn't be the person that I am [00:12:30] today. I wouldn't be a strong willed emotional to get the person that I am. You know, we we all learn through our mistakes and through experience. And if you block yourself from feeling anything or doing anything you'll you'll never really achieve of happiness, I suppose, um [00:13:00] and I can honestly say, at 23 years old, um, that I am happy and finding finding that happiness, finding that place that makes me happy gets me through the bad times if something crops up or, um, I'm going through a rough time. If I'm feeling really lonely or, you know, I have to deal with the problem, it doesn't. I feel yeah, I fall down, but I don't fall as far. And I've got tools on board [00:13:30] to be able to pick myself up in a very confident way. And if I've made the mistake, I can admit to it and learn from it and go well, hey, I fucked up, but I won't do it again. And if I do do it again. I'll do it differently. And if differently doesn't work, I'll try it again and again and again. You know, nobody's perfect. Nobody's always right. Nobody's always wrong. You know. It's about [00:14:00] it's about the individual. It's about you being who you are And you choose to feel how you feel. You choose to be how you be. No one else can change that. They can have an impact on you. Yes. And they can influence you. Yes, but ultimately we make the We make the decisions in our life and we need to empower those and go inside of ourselves. I'm me. I love me. Yay!

IRN: 431
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/snapshot_2000_jonathan.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004095
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089389
TITLE: Snapshot 2000 - Jonathan
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; London; Snapshot 2000; United Kingdom; coming out; family; gay; sex
DATE: 15 January 2000
YEAR: 2000
LOCATION: London, London, United Kingdom
CONTEXT: In this podcast Jonathan talks about coming out and first sexual experience.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I think I first realised I was gay. Um, probably when when I was in my sort of late, single figure years, I would guess probably 89 and into 10, I realised that the feelings that I had for for for love and romance and and my first sort of sexual awakening were not for people of the opposite sex. They were for people of the same sex. And, um, thanks for having a fantastic family upbringing. Uh, from what some people would call a broken home. My parents were separated when I was very young. I was very close to my mother [00:00:30] and her new male partner, and I didn't have any problems with that in myself at all. That's not to say that I came out to my my parents at that age. I didn't actually come out to my mum till I was 18, 19 years old, which is what, some 10 years later. But just knowing that the the support was there, and I think in reality your parents always really know whether their child or you know, son or daughter is gay or not. I think that it's a it's it's a lie to say I didn't My mum never knew or [00:01:00] my dad never knew, because I think deep down they do. It's the same as the the husband who's having an affair, or the or the wife who's messing around on a lunch break with a Diet Coke break. They you just know you know something's wrong. But when it came to coming out to my mother, which was kind of enforced on me at the time, because it was I was in my first gay relationship at 18, 19 years old, and I lived in London, which is the capital of England, and my my mom and her partner lived in Cornwall, which is a region, uh, some sort of 250 miles away, very [00:01:30] rugged and and windswept. Um, it was a It was a long way to go, and it was a long journey to take being forced into it by a boyfriend who was determined that I should come out to my parents and family before he could truly love me. And when it's your first same sex relationship, it's the You don't know what the rules are because the whole of your upbringing is based around, uh, the heterosexual ideals and stereotypes of what the good relationships are and how they work. So when you're suddenly thrown into something that you really want very much, you don't know the rules and how how the game is played. So I accepted [00:02:00] that as the norm and travelled down to Cornwall to do the do the deeds and to come out and be honest with my my family. And it was over Christmas, and I remember the precise moment vividly. We were watching JFK, the Oliver Stone movie on television. And ever since I was a very young kid, I think it was to do with the separation of my my mum and dad. Er, Late at night, I would join my mother on her bed, not in her bed, under the covers. She would be under the covers, and I would just sit on the side of the bed and we'd watch telly together for a little while and have a chat. And then I'd go to bed and you know, we'd all go to sleep, and I just remember [00:02:30] sitting there, and I think there's a moment when er, Kevin Costner and Sissy Spacer have a row er, because the family's falling apart in the movie. And I just said, Ohh, God, I'd love to have kids And my I remember my mum saying, But you will have kids, won't you? And I said, Well, I don't know And it was that sort of Then you get that fundamental moment where you don't quite know what to say. And there's a pause that fills er build a gap as as long as a lifetime. But in reality, it's probably a nanosecond. And my mum just said, Is there something you want to tell me? And I said, and it was vivid, as opposed to the first person [00:03:00] I said in the third person your son is gay, to which she said, Fantastic news. That's fantastic news. I'm so glad you've told me. As long as you're as happy as you can be and you're as safe as you can be, it really doesn't matter. And that was it. There was no throwing plant pots across the wall and soil falling everywhere. There was no red wine glasses being smashed. There was no Your father never wants to speak to you again. It was that simple and the feeling of coming out and and having that final boundary of honesty confirmed and brought brought [00:03:30] together was more uplifting than I think anything I've ever done since. Or anyone ever told since, because when you're truly honest with the people that love you, it's when you can truly be honest with yourself. I suppose my first real sexual experience was with somebody in my secondary school, which is a school you go to from the age of 11 to 15 in the UK. And it was AAA chap, a lad called Matthew, and we were the same age, and we had to go on a camping trip. And in this country, that means intense er, [00:04:00] not intense, but actually under canvas. But it was pretty intense, and we ended up travelling to this site in the middle of a mall in Cornwall again, very remote, very windy, very wet, and it was single sex tent and Matthew and I had always played together and hung out and done stuff and gone into town together in the lunch hour and just had a good time. And there was that spark that you probably can't explain or understand. But you know, it's that. Is that that that it's that intense, mind numbing sort [00:04:30] of electric spark between you, that excitement and you can't quite define it because he's never experienced it. You don't know what's going to come. And so we were at this campsite camping, doing the things that teachers make you do when you're a kid, like rescuing barrels out of ropes of, you know, ropes that are supposed to be lakes and all that sort of malarkey. And night time came and Matthew said to me, just as we were all getting in there, thinking, Why don't you come and lay next to me? And I thought, Yeah, why not? I normally I lay next to my best friend, Ben. But no, I went to lay with Matthew, not lay with him in the biblical sense, but lay [00:05:00] next to him. And, um, I was. We went to sleep, and there was the usual sort of laddish laughter that you get and playing around. And in the middle of the night I felt his hand on my sleeping bag, and I was sort of filled with an sort of a a again an an anticipation and an excitement and I reciprocated. It was the old tag game, that I. I think I've read that a lot of first time sexual relationships are based on is that you touch me here. I'll touch you there and and it continued and hands went [00:05:30] under sleeping bags and I'm in. One particularly emotive and and exciting point was that we were writing words on each other's stomach because we couldn't talk because we had to be absolutely silent. You have to remember that Cornwall was not a place that was greatly respectful of of things that weren't the norm, IE sleeping with relatives and driving tractors. So we had to be very, very quiet about it. So we were spelling out words on each other's bodies, which was intensely erotic, Um, not intentionally, but through necessity. But sometimes [00:06:00] things that you do through necessity are that in nature erotic. And it was sort of Are you enjoying that? Yes, I am. Obviously it took a very long period of time, But the one thing I suppose, the one thing we we never completed that sexual act as as you would probably reading science books and maybe that was a little part of my insecurity, not wanting to give everything away at once. So I just pretended to fall asleep and and the next morning we woke up, and it was as if nothing ever happened until a couple of weeks later, when it became a relationship that lasted [00:06:30] for some years. I suppose if I had a message to anybody who was coming out or deciding their sexuality or or realising that they weren't who they thought they were, and they are now something else, it would be to ring me because I'm always available for weekends, bar mitzvahs and barbecues. No, it would be to be confident in yourself and to be sure that that you're the person that you think you should be and you're not anybody for anyone else. You can only be yourself, and there's no right and wrong In the human body, there's there's no there's no [00:07:00] lies for yourself. You can only be true, and you will lose friends and you will gain friends, and you may have difficult times with family, but you'll get through it and you'll be a stronger, wiser, better person for it. And that sounds incredibly patronising. And very arrogant and very blase. Unfortunately, it's really true. You've just got to go for it. Be the person you know in your heart. You've got to be and enjoy it because it is the best life you'll ever have because it's the only one you'll ever have.

IRN: 430
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/snapshot_2000_calvin.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004094
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089388
TITLE: Snapshot 2000 - Calvin
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: partially identified voice(s)
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; New York City; Snapshot 2000; United States of America; coming out; family; gay; growing up; sex; youth
DATE: 14 January 2000
YEAR: 2000
LOCATION: New York City, New York City, United States of America
CONTEXT: Calvin talks about coming out and first sexual experience.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I think that some people are born gay. You are not. You know you don't learn to be gay. Because when I was really young, uh, when I see some handsome guys, I would like get an interaction. But I didn't realise that, you know, I have, like, feeling for guys. Until when I was my first year in high school, like I only 15. So that's when I started to accept myself as someone who is feeling for guys and not for girls. [00:00:30] Um, I'm in the closet, you know, I don't go out, and none of my friends know that I'm gay. So I have to go to the Internet to meet someone you know, and chat room and stuff. And I also go to some porn site, and that really excites me. And I compare the, um, gay porn and straight porn. And that's when I realised that what I really want, uh, what [00:01:00] my sexual preference is. So, um, that's why And then when I met the first guy on the Internet, we had coffee, and then we talk and we had we really had fun. So So that's how I realised that that's what I really want. And I won't be happy being with girls. Um, because of my age, I'm only 19. I'm still in, um, college and my parents. They I don't think I think they [00:01:30] will accept me as a homosexual eventually, but not easily so. And they're still supporting me financially. So, um, I'm waiting till I graduate from college and get a job and settle down to tell everyone you know. So I think that's gonna be a big thing, But I, I am gonna tell them eventually because my mother is always expecting me to, uh, marry someone and have kids and stuff. So I think [00:02:00] that's gonna be a big disappointment for her. But I have to tell her because I won't be happy if you know, if I do what she wants me to do. So the first time was, uh I think in, uh, 97 like, around October 97 I met that guy on the Internet. Uh, he's British, and, um, I talked to him. And then, like, I was trying to experience what gay, [00:02:30] uh, sexes. And, uh, I talked to him and I went to his apartment, and then we talk and then we get really interested in each other. So, um, we did kiss. And then, um, we went to or or And then, um, I didn't know anything about anything at all. I was kind of know and wanting to experience stuff. And I told him, like I as I seen [00:03:00] in a porn, I want to have anal sex. And then he said he won't do it because, um um I think, uh, you know, he he is really He sort of cares for me because I'm still a virgin and he he he has a very big endowment. So he's one of the best gay guy that I've ever seen, and I think I'll never see him again. And then, um, I forgot to get [00:03:30] his address. So I didn't email him or anything, and then so I sort of wanted to experience other guys. I don't I. I don't know. I think it's not right. But many gay people do that, and I think this is what I sometimes I think it's what life is about seeing a lot of different guys, which is why a lot of us wind up getting AIDS or HIV so um I went to see a, uh, like, a couple more several guys. Um, but I didn't [00:04:00] feel the same way as the first time. They weren't gentle, you know? So I think it's really hard to find someone like that first guy again. But, uh uh, I don't know. I still want to experience with, uh, several more guys, you know, to have different experience, but they just don't feel the same as my first time. It's memorable. And it's really what love making is all about. Not like other times. Um, [00:04:30] what I feel what I really want is a gentle and romantic stuff. It's not. It has nothing to do with, like, sex, but the way he touches you like it just feels so good. I think this is what all sex is about. It doesn't have to be an sex or oral sex. So, um, after having sex with a lot of guys with just, like excitement and what you see in the porn, I feel that this is not all what sex is about. [00:05:00] Well, I think that, uh, coming out, um, it doesn't have to be like you don't have to come out. You know, like I don't know if I accept myself gay, uh, like socially because, um, like, I try to be with a lot of my my friends that are girls so that, you know, to work with them so that so that, like people would like, look at me as socially [00:05:30] normal here because the homo, like the number of homosexual people, is, you know, are very small. So they think that what heterosexual is normal and, oh, we are not normal. So II, I don't know. I don't know. Like I do want to accept myself as homosexual, but like in my mind, I just I don't know. I just can't control it. Like I want to be with girls to let people [00:06:00] see that I do have girlfriends. I'm not real, you know, I'm not, uh, like, don't let them suspect about myself and stuff, so I don't know why I did that, but, uh, I do, except I I'm so confused. But I think I eventually will come out sometimes to tell all my friends because I don't feel good keeping all the stuff myself. So I tell them sometimes, uh, but it will be after [00:06:30] college So, um, I would suggest that people just coming out like after they settle down or everything. Because a lot of people, this is a very new thing. A lot of people don't accept that. So my parents, they are very kind of old fashioned, so they haven't been, uh, exposed to what homosexual is about. So it's gonna be really, really new to them. [00:07:00] I can't imagine what my mom would feel. She would be really, really disappointed. My dad, I think he would understand. And my mom would even eventually understand. But it would be really, really hard. It would take a lot a long time for her to accept me because she has such so much hope for me. And like, according to them, like heterosexual is what the life, you know, should be so Oh, I can't imagine [00:07:30] how I'm gonna tell them. Oh, and my my parents are really old now. I'm the youngest. My dad is about 60 now, So sometimes I thought about not telling them because they only have, like, uh, you know, they won't. Well, you know, they are pretty old now, so just like, forget about that and stuff. So uh I don't know if I still need to tell, but But if they find out in some other way, like, find out my personal [00:08:00] life, like, find out, then I will tell them. But if they don't find out, then I would try to avoid that. Uh, you know, as far as I can, because I don't want to hurt that feeling, so I think it's better not to tell them.

IRN: 429
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/snapshot_2000_ben.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004093
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089387
TITLE: Snapshot 2000 - Ben
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: partially identified voice(s)
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Christchurch; Snapshot 2000; coming out; gay; growing up; sex; unidentified voice(s); youth
DATE: 12 January 2000
YEAR: 2000
LOCATION: Christchurch, Christchurch, Canterbury
CONTEXT: Ben talks about coming out and first sexual experience.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I think you generally get to a stage where you realise. Ok? Yeah, I do know I am. And I am accepting that I am. Whereas I went through a stage of denying it for a long time where I thought it's just a phrase. I'm not really gay. Um, I suppose as you get older, you you mature and you realise and I. I guess I was a really early age at 14 and I came out to them because I'm by that stage I had known God for ages for many, many years and [00:00:30] I just had to tell someone. So I told my best friend and she was kind of like, shocked. She was like, Wow, she didn't know what to do. So we can never spoke about it. And then 23 months later that, like, all built up again, and I was at the stage where I just had to tell someone. So one day, Mum was in the shower and I wrote her a note and I said, Hey, Mum, I'm gay and I put it in a slipper. So when she got out of the shower, she put a shoe on, found this note and read it. And from there, um, she kind of walked into my room and goes, Ah, [00:01:00] I've read this note and I'm like, Oh, my God. And we talked And then we cried and talked and cried and talked and cried for hours and hours. But I found that was a really, really good move. And, um, just having someone there that knows for support was excellent. And so, yeah, that was my, like, my original coming up process. And by that stage, I'd logically known that I was, um, at school, though a few months later, I had got to a stage where I built up all again and, um, everything at school is just kind [00:01:30] of getting really, really annoying. And I just kind of like broke down in class one day. And, um, from there, everyone kind of asked, you know what happened? Why? And so I told everyone. And, um, that was kind of the worst mistake I ever made. And I actually regret coming up at school. Um, like what? Eventually, the, um my counsellor told me I should tell Dad, and I'm like, No. And, um, Mum had just told him behind my back one day and Dad stopped speaking to me for six months, which was kind of hard, but, um, I guess he just needed his time to get over it because he's a real [00:02:00] macho man. He was in the 1st 15, he lost his two front teeth in a fight. He drinks beer and whatnot. Um, but at school, I went to an all boys kind of upper class school, but it's not really too upper class, but, um, just the attitude was there you had to be macho to rate. Um, you had to play first, you play rugby, and if you weren't you were different and you're hassled and people I've never met before would walk up to me in the quad and go, Oh, you and, um, it got to the stage where it was too much. [00:02:30] And I had heaps of friends living, going to a school near me where my other friends lived. So I changed schools to a coed school, and that's the best move I ever made. I get very little hassle there. I find there's just such a different atmosphere. It's excellent that the fact you've got girls and there's There's not so much this Mao egotistic thing where, like, you have to be something and, like everyone, just accept you for you. And it's also a very multiracial school. So I mean that I suppose that's another point that I mean, everyone is different and they just accept you for what you are. [00:03:00] Um, after that, I mean, the introduced me to a lot of gay people. I suppose that also helps me. Um, I had a good friend like that was always there for me when I was coming out and just offered me advice. And I always ask the questions and I mean, I suppose that was really good again having that support someone you can talk to and they can help you through the process of coming out and then I. I suppose it's just like a chain. And then he introduces you to more people and more people, and eventually you just get to know a whole lot of people and you create a whole group of friends [00:03:30] outside like the abstract that are gay and that their support and you realise you aren't the only one and that you're normal and that there's other people like you genuine, like you. And it's just like, um wow. So yeah, um, but again, school. I mean, coming out of school is like, a thing. I regret it. Kind of like I don't know it. Like, do you or don't you? I guess it's a choice most people have to make themselves. But I don't recommend it at the moment, because school is just, um cos ready for [00:04:00] it. I mean, teachers didn't know what to do. They they just ignored the harassment. Um, they just ignored the harassment. And, um, I had meetings with teachers and everything, and nothing really happened. Teachers just try to choose not to listen to it, I suppose. And it just got such a hassle. And I'm still like, I know I do get the harassment. It's not as much, but ideally, I suppose it's just better telling a few good friends. And that's all you need to tell. And you just leave it at that and that [00:04:30] you've just got the support there, which is the main thing for you. Um, other than that, like just with parents and that it's just, you know, you just be you know, when the time is right. It gets to a stage where everything builds up and, you know, the time is right to tell someone, and you just it's just something I don't know how to explain it, but I just was like, Well, I need to tell someone, and I did. And I suppose it happens at different times for everyone because a lot of my friends now are concerned. Come out at 16, 17, 18. And you know, they say I came up really [00:05:00] early, but it's just something, you know, that what has to be done. And I guess you just everyone does it at their own pace. And I just guess I grew up early. When you first come out as logically, you're also very rainy, I suppose would be the way of putting it. And, um, you think you know everything and that. And, um, you just rush into things And I suppose that's one thing I regret. Um, I was 14, and I suppose I just wanted to just to experience that, and, um, it was nothing. It's just a waste, [00:05:30] Kind of, um I mean, the curiosity is there, but I do recommend waiting. Um I've just recently broken up with a long term relationship. Um, it was very hard. Um, but I mean, my first time. I guess it's just a learning experience, and you get through it and, like, I had known this person for a while, So it was a good thing, I suppose. But, um, I suppose it's just something that always happens, and that curiosity does kick in and you are randy and horny, and [00:06:00] your hormones take over. You, um I think is I find a lot of older men often like to go for younger people. That's one mistake I've never made. I can say, um, I think that's one thing people just need to be careful. Careful of that, people aren't what they see, and they do lay a lot, and especially in the clubbing scene and all that, you will get people that will make you feel wonderful but only want you for one thing again. It's just these older men that are just looking for one thing, and there's nothing really there. And I I've seen it so much in Christchurch that older men going [00:06:30] for younger people and, um, it's like the younger people are vulnerable because they want support and someone to hold. And the older men know this, so they take advantage of it. So that's one thing I say to be very careful of, because you can get trapped and you may not realise it, but it does happen. And, um, yeah, I try to warn people all the time about it, and it's just good to to not just to, like, stand up and just realise, OK, I'm gonna be careful, and I'm not gonna rush into anything. So yeah, um, or you're always nervous. [00:07:00] So I remember you always feel nervous whenever anything sexual happens from kissing to holding hands or anything, you're always like, you know, wow, sweating. I suppose it's It's a weird experience and you get used to it and it becomes nice later on. If it's with someone you really like, it becomes an amazing thing. So just don't rush into it would be my advice. Um, just wait and you will find someone that you feel special about, so yeah.

IRN: 439
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/snapshot_2000_steve.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004103
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089397
TITLE: Snapshot 2000 - Steve
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1950s; Auckland; Snapshot 2000; coming out; growing up; marriage; rural; sex; sex work
DATE: 21 January 2000
YEAR: 2000
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Steve talks about coming out and first sexual experience.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I realised when I was quite young that I was different. Um, I had going back to my early childhood. Actually. I had, um, experiences and wanted to experiment with feelings that I didn't really understand from from quite a young age. And I had, um I think even before puberty I I may have this wrong. I don't know. Um, it's a long time ago. I'm I'm a guy who's 48 now. So, um, you know, we gotta get back [00:00:30] a long way here, but I always thought I was different. And as I got older, um, I became aware of Of what the difference was the fact that I was gay, that I found boys or men, mostly men, almost always men. Um, I'm not really into the boys or the young guys sort of thing, um, physically and sexually attractive. Um, I grew up in small town New Zealand, where that sort of thing was, um, was not acceptable, or you tried to fit in, [00:01:00] which is basically what I tried to do. Um, at 25 I got married, which was the brightest thing I ever did. Someone who turned out to be a wonderful woman, but, um, things were never quite right. Um, I guess when you live in small town New Zealand, and this was before homosexual law reform, you feel that you have to fit in. And I guess I thought, um, stupidly that by getting married, I would cure whatever problem it was that Help me or I would be able to live [00:01:30] a life that people found acceptable, and I fit in. Um, this went on, so 10 or 12 years and I was I mean, sex was purgatory. It was the hardest thing I ever had to do. Um, you know, they talk about people being gay over a spectrum. I mean, this purely heterosexual. And they move through a spectrum from from that through to slightly bisexual, across to bisexual, across to fully gay. And I guess I come in at the gay end of the spectrum. Um, I love men. I love sex [00:02:00] with men. So, um, I found it extremely hard, and then it got to a point where I couldn't deny basically what I was feeling. So I started to have sex with me. Um, which, um, I went at it like a man demented I guess so, Yeah. I was in my mid thirties at this stage. Um, and I needed that physical satisfaction, I guess that you get when you're gay and you have sex with me. And so [00:02:30] I had all this sort of playing around with guys and doing the dogs and all that sort of thing, things that at the time seemed totally acceptable. Which now, um, I find rather repugnant. Um, things I did that I'm not proud of. Um, a lot of other people would say, Well, hey, that's fine. That's part of exploring your sexuality and being finding the satisfaction, the sexual satisfaction and the physical satisfaction that you need to keep you going through life. Um, [00:03:00] to me, it's rather sad, but anyway, that's the situation I found myself in, And then the feelings that I had or the suffocation, I guess that I was feeling being constrained in a marriage that I didn't want, Um, not being really courageous enough to pull my way out of it, Um, it just got worse and worse, and I started to suffer physical manifestations where my health started to fail. And then something happened where I my wife was involved with [00:03:30] something that with a friend of hers, and they were going to be spending the day doing something. And I lived in Hamilton at the time and she said to me, Why don't you go away for the day? Just do something different. So I thought, I want to come to Auckland. So I came to Auckland and I got here early in the morning and I thought, Well, what am I gonna do? I don't know anybody here. So I did something that I never, ever thought I'd do. But I, um, picked up a truth newspaper and I phoned a hooker. I had sex with this guy. It turned out to be really, [00:04:00] really good. Um, the first time I think I'd had really satisfying sex, and we started to see each other, and he was an educated guy. Um, he had a degree in business management and all that sort of thing, and he was sort of working as an escort, I guess, to supplement his meagre income to put himself through university. And what have you. So, um, we used to talk a lot, and he got me to read a book called the road less travel, which I did. Um, it made me realise a lot of things. And then [00:04:30] we talked about how the life that I was living was affecting me, which was fine. I. I knew how it was affecting me. Um, and I came to the realisation that I was cheating myself. And then he turned around to me one day and he said to me, You know, you you realise you're cheating your wife as well And I said, Well, what do you mean? I said, I've taken at this at this point. I've been married 17 years and I said, Well, look, I've taken 15 years of a life away from her. He said, I, she deserves to be. I deserves for me to stay with [00:05:00] her and see it through. And he said no. He said, You've cheated her for 17 years, he said, Doesn't she deserve to be happy in her own right? To be loved as a woman should be loved. And when I heard that and thought about that, then I realised exactly what I had to do. So, um, I went and saw my wife sat down one day and we had a chat. Well, it was basically a chat. It was very, um, civil. Um, she'd come to realise that perhaps I might be gay. Um, [00:05:30] the sexual side of our marriage have practically died. Um, we had no Children. Um, I guess that was a decision I made early on that I didn't want Children because I knew. I think deep down that it was gonna come a time when, um, I was going to have to be honest about who I was and what I was. And also, I think, um, if I had Children, I felt there would be a stigma attached to them for what I had done or for the type of person [00:06:00] that I was. I realise now, now that that's probably not true. Um, Children are very accepting, and I find in the circles within which I mix where I work, um, and socialise. And what have you that, um, my homosexuality is not is just not an issue. Um, I'm accepted totally for who I am. I can talk openly about the life that I live. Um, the things that I do, um, that sort of thing. So, you know, it's really really cool. [00:06:30] But once we had decided to separate and that the physical manifestations of things that were going on, the health problems and that everything ceased. So, um yeah, it came to a point in my life where I was sort of at peace. I'm out to all my friends to my family. No, my parents are in their mid seventies. I believe that they would not cope at all. Well, um, with the fact that I was gay, and if I came out to them then, um it would [00:07:00] affect them, Um, emotionally. And I don't want to do that to them. I people say, You know, you should tell your parents and all that sort of thing. And I think I think every parent's reaction is that they look at themselves and think, Well, you know, what the what the hell did I do? Where the hell did I go wrong and they didn't go wrong. They didn't do anything wrong at all. It's just the physical makeup that makes up me, and there's nothing I can do about it. There's nothing they can do about it, but they would feel recrimination, and I don't want them to do that. And at the same time, too, I think I'm [00:07:30] a little bit frightened that they just may turn away. Um, and I don't want that either. I'm an only child. They're the only family I have. I need their support, and I need their love, Um, moving on. From there, we come to the gay scene, which I find extremely frustrating. Um, because I'm into my late forties. Um, I'm an old man. I don't feel it. I don't act it. I don't really look at either. But, um, we brand ourselves, I think, um, for a [00:08:00] section of society that complains so loudly and wrongly about being discriminated against, I think we're more discriminatory ourselves than any other group could ever be towards us. Um, I have yet to meet a man. I have not really had a true homosexual or a gay relationship. Um, I met a guy about six weeks ago, eight weeks ago. Now it would be, um, and a situation where, um [00:08:30] he had a partner who was living overseas at the time who he was going to join at the end of the year. Um, we met. We were attracted to each other. Um, we got on so well together. We ended up having a sexual relationship, which I thought I could control, but I couldn't. Um I felt rather hard for the guy. He was only 32 very successful, extremely intelligent, charming, witty. Everything I ever wanted in a man. Um, he never really talked [00:09:00] about what he felt for me, but he kept coming back and coming back. So I know he felt something and he knew how I felt. And that's the closest I think I've ever come to being in love with a man. The things that I felt the highs and the lows, Um, I have never felt before. Um, And I find it sad that I come to this point in my life where I've never really experienced true life. Um, I find it frustrating. Um, and I've It's hard. All [00:09:30] I want is someone to love and someone to love me. But I guess it'll happen. I mean, the guy gave me back self esteem that I had lost. Um, he made me feel worthwhile and made me realise that there are guys out there who hour the type of person I want who will find me attractive. So I guess one day my day will come. I think you always remember your first. That's true. It's one of the most vivid memories I have. I think, um, he was only a young [00:10:00] guy. I was at the beach lying on the beach, sunbathing. Um, I was in my early thirties, I suppose. Ah, he was a kid of about 18. 17, 18. Like being a bit older. And he kept everywhere I went, He was right behind me. So in the end, um, I asked him what he wanted. He said, ohh. He said, I find you very attractive. I wanna have sex with you. So off we went. Um, and I was like a kid fumbling around. [00:10:30] Um, I didn't know what to do or or anything like that. Um, I just remember, um, holding him feeling like I had never, ever felt before. He was 18. He was hung like a horse. And he was so hard, I can remember that. I sacked him off. I gave him a blow job, I guess. Um Then he bolted. Um, I felt what did I feel? [00:11:00] I don't know if I like if I can remember truly what I feel now I know went looking from the following day, but he was nowhere to be found. Um, I guess it was one of those normal first encounters that most 15 or 16 year olds have. You don't know what you're doing. You're fumbling around. Um, I guess that was it. It was the start of a number of rather cheap and nasty Well, not nasty encounters, but cheap and unsatisfying encounters. I guess [00:11:30] the first few times, I guess it was OK. But after that, it each time you sort of sneak off to do it. It it sort of I don't know. I think to me, to me six, there has to be intimacy. And with intimacy, there has to be knowledge or a liking of the person that you're with. Um don't know. I just don't find it satisfying if I don't at least get to know a little bit about the person. Nowadays. You're not really looked upon. [00:12:00] And lots of instances you're not looked upon as being different or made to feel different. I don't I don't anymore. So I guess that's one of the great things about, um, law reform that I've always said this, that, um, gay people continue to live their lives much the same way as they had before, And the dire predictions of child molestation and all this sort of crap just never came to be. And that's probably the best thing that ever happened to gay is the fact that life just went on exactly the same as it always had done. [00:12:30] Be true to yourself. I think that's what you really have to be. You have to decide who you are, what you are and how you wanna live your life, and then you go and do it and like yourself, be proud of the person, not not so much as sexuality. I don't think that's important. Well, it is important to you, but be proud of the whole person that you are. Don't just base everything on your sexuality. Don't try to just [00:13:00] you justify your existence based on your sexuality or anything like that. Just be proud of the whole person that you are.

IRN: 438
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/snapshot_2000_brad.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004102
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089396
TITLE: Snapshot 2000 - Brad
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; Australia; Snapshot 2000; Tasmania; coming out; depression; family; gay; growing up; sex
DATE: 21 January 2000
YEAR: 2000
LOCATION: Tasmania, Tasmania, Australia
CONTEXT: In this podcast Brad talks about coming out and first sexual experience.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, I guess I sort of realised I was gay right from when I was very young. Um, sort of when I, you know, I looked at a man or a you know, as attractive to him and or looked at a female. And But I wasn't, I guess. And But I guess when I was young probably didn't to realise what it all meant and all that. And I actually didn't come out till about two years ago, and I'm 25 now. Um, [00:00:30] I guess it took me a while to sort of accept and come to terms with the fact that I was gay. Um, I'm sort of glad that I am. Now, I find that I'm a lot happier, sort of went through a bit of depression and that, and then when I sort of sort of finally came out and that sort of told everyone that I was gay, um, I felt like sort of a bit of weight lifted off me, and I was a lot happier. Um, pretty much my [00:01:00] everyone took it fairly well, Like my mum already sort of pretty much knew that I was gay. Um, as did sort of some friends that I worked with, I guess sort of having close contact with me and that I sort of picked up on the sign that I was gay even before I sort of said that I was, Um my dad was about the only one that didn't take it very well. It sort of, um, [00:01:30] thought that it was a waste and sort of thought that I'd chosen to come and go. Um, and I couldn't believe that you were born gay, so, um, but he doesn't sort of understand that, so we just I don't talk to him about it at all. He didn't at first. Didn't want to see me at all. Um, but now he seems to have gotten over that. One of my friends actually told him up and I think told him off and that I was his only son [00:02:00] on me, blah, blah, blah. You know, I should get over it and all of that. So he does, whether influence him at all. I don't know, but he seems to be right about it, but we don't sort of really talk about it. Makes a few comments about living a clearer lifestyle and the rest of it just tend to ignore it, Um, everyone else except me for the way I am, as I guess. But I'm not a different person to [00:02:30] who I was before I came out, so I shouldn't be treated any different. I sort of found it hard, like going through school and that because I sort of sort of wasn't out. And I guess I had a school friend come up to me one day and said, Oh, don't worry, I won't tell anyone. And I said what? And he said that you go and I just I sort of alright, he didn't really know what to say, but I guess it sort of [00:03:00] sort of see me on other guys or whatever and picked up on it. Um, so that was a bit sort of freaky. Um, I guess, looking back, I wish, but I perhaps had to come out when I was younger. Um may have made things easier, or I would have perhaps experienced more. Um, but I guess he can't change the past. You just have to look for the towards the future. Um but I thought I wouldn't [00:03:30] change who I am or being gay for anything. Enjoy being gay and wouldn't wanna be straight. Always knew I was gay, but just never did anything about it. Or I don't know if perhaps too scared or just sort of also not helping because I was perhaps shy as well. Um, I was just sort of, um I guess had sex with a few guys when I wasn't out. [00:04:00] Sort of, um, like, covering it all up and that and making sure no one knew and the rest of it. And then I sort of I guess there was just that urge there to To wanna come out and to want to tell people that I was gay and to not have to hide it. Um, And I guess it just and I spent so much time, I guess in the closet and and all of a sudden it just sort of speak. So I want to come out, and then I just basically [00:04:30] came out and yeah, I sort of came out and just bang and told everyone that I was gay and just started going out to go places and that, um so I guess, Yeah. I just guess it all built up over the years, and I just couldn't live more sort of hiding it and that. And I wanted people to know who I that I was gay and and everything. And so I just came out and did it. [00:05:00] I just sort of chatted to this guy on the Internet, and then he came down to a place where I was boarding up, because the the lady that I boarded with was away for the night. So we sort of talked for a while, a bit nervous, and then I guess we had sex. So it was just sort of, mainly a bit of all that sort of money, just sort of and that, um [00:05:30] and I just sort of afterwards I just sort of wanted him to pretty much sort of go straight away, and, um and then I change the sheets and all the rest of it. Um, so I guess the first few times, I guess so sort of enjoyed it, but then wanted to sort of sort of get them away quick. And that and I guess perhaps they sort of the people. And I guess also because I wasn't out, I didn't was frightened [00:06:00] of being, though coming home, so Ah, I mean, like, well, getting in court or whatever, so I just wanna to get rid of them quick. So I didn't get caught. Um, I guess coming out sort of in. Obviously, you don't have to worry about any of that anymore. So So it was sort of a while. Like when I first had a only about two guys and I was like, I don't know, six months or more, I think, than after that, and then I sort of came [00:06:30] out.

IRN: 441
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/snapshot_2000_scott_b.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004105
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089399
TITLE: Snapshot 2000 - Scott (b)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; Australia; Snapshot 2000; Sydney; alcohol and drug abuse; coming out; marriage; military
DATE: 23 January 2000
YEAR: 2000
LOCATION: Sydney, Sydney, Australia
CONTEXT: In this podcast Scott talks about coming out and first sexual experience.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: OK, well, I first knew I was gay when I was about seven. Um, I always got on well with the girls, but always liked the look of the guys thinking I just wanted to be like them, but it was a bit more than that. Um, I basically didn't actually come out till I was 24. I broke up with my fiance, um, started drinking heavily, started getting into the drugs to cope with it all. Um, [00:00:30] but, uh, once I sort of realised what was happening and went to Sydney, which is supposed to be the second biggest gay capital in the world, that seemed to help a little bit. Um, And once I came out to my family and all that kind of thing, it was such a big relief to me. Um, they didn't deal with it very well. Mum still doesn't deal with it very well. She's known for four years now. Um, [00:01:00] I was absolutely petrified about coming out. Um, but a lot of my friends that I was hanging around with were gay, and they were all coming out around me, and I saw how much of a relief it was for them. So I thought, Well, I might as well do it myself. So I came out at work. I was in the Royal Australian Navy, and that was a big step for me. It was only just, um, legal. Um, so that was one of the reasons I hadn't come out earlier [00:01:30] as well. Um, I came out to all my work, colleagues and all that kind of thing, and they were really they were really good about it. Um, coming out to my mother at first, that was a bit of a nightmare. Was over the phone of one thing I wished I'd never done. But, um, she questioned me about it on the phone, and I just said yes. She went silent. Um said she'd get back to me later. She rang me a couple of hours later and told me not to tell my father. So I didn't end [00:02:00] up telling my father I still haven't actually told my father for because of her wish. Um, which is, I think, just as which is harder for her because she hasn't got anyone to talk to, except for my sister. But, um, she's now moved out of home and all that kind of thing. Um, we still have a close relationship, but not as close as I would like it to be, because I can't tell her everything. When I came out to my parents, it it [00:02:30] was like a huge weight off my shoulder. I remember the night I went to bed after I told my parents I had the best sleep I'd ever had in years. And it was just it was just such a relief. It was such a huge relief. It was like I didn't need to lie anymore. I didn't have to lead such a double life, which I've been doing for so many years. Um, everyone that is gay has a pretty good idea that they are. But a lot of people are very, [00:03:00] um, apprehensive about it. Um, some people live in areas where it's not well accepted. Um, if you're going to come out, make sure you come out with friends around you that you can really, really trust. Um, take it slowly, but don't take it too slow. Um, because when you come out, you wish she'd done it. Years ago, my first male sexual experience was an absolute [00:03:30] nightmare. I was very drunk one night at this mixed bar. Um, he actually picked me up and, uh, took me back to his place. Um, uh, the excitement was amazing. Doing it was OK. It wasn't what I really expected. But when That next morning when I got home, I was, uh, really, um, really upset. [00:04:00] I was expecting something absolutely out of this world. Something absolutely amazing. Unfortunately, it wasn't, um, that morning I got home. I felt very sick. Um, I was absolutely disgusted myself. Um, I actually lost my virginity to a guy before a girl always thought I'd get married and have kids and have a station wagon, all that nice thing. And I thought it actually totally destroyed my life. I wasn't [00:04:30] for a couple of years after that that I, uh I actually met someone that was really nice and very caring. And, uh, it made it took a while for me to actually adjust to it.

IRN: 440
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/snapshot_2000_nigel.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004104
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089398
TITLE: Snapshot 2000 - Nigel
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; Australia; Snapshot 2000; Sydney; coming out; family; gay; growing up; sex
DATE: 23 January 2000
YEAR: 2000
LOCATION: Sydney, Sydney, Australia
CONTEXT: In this podcast Nigel talks about coming out and first sexual experience.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, I knew when, um like when I was about eight or nine. When? When? In the changing shares with the boys. You didn't wanna look at girls? I wasn't even interested in looking at girls. I got on really well with girls. And that's why I always thought that I was gonna get married and everything else. But I've never sex sexually attracted to two women as long as I can remember. I was I was engaged to be married for a while for about 2. 5 years to a to A to a woman. And then I broke it off after I thought, This is not gonna work. [00:00:30] And then, um, it was about six months ago that I decided to, you know, I'll just take the the the leap and do it and come out and go back to friends. And I'll come out in Wellington when I move to Wellington because I come from a little country town down south, and yeah, it was a funny, funny reaction I got Most people were pretty alright with it because of where I worked. And most people there are pretty easy going, but, um yeah, it was easy. When I came out, I felt relieved. But now that I've come to Sydney City is a lot harder [00:01:00] and a lot of people are a lot more. I don't know, a lot more ignorant. And even though it's a more open place and yeah, I find it a lot, a lot harder now to deal with than I did before and yeah, that's about it Now I'm just trying to cope with it and trying to get along with it and doing the best I can. I came back to my parents about a month ago in Sydney. They were back in New Zealand down south and I rang them up and we [00:01:30] were just talking and they asked me because I they I wasn't talking about girls. So they asked me if I if I was gay and I got sick of lying to them and I said yes, and they were very, very upset and like my mother didn't talk, she just stood silent at the end of the phone and then she wouldn't talk to me and she just hung up. And then later on, I rang her about probably 33 weeks after that about a week ago and she won't really talk to me much anymore. So my family are very taken it very hard because of my family background [00:02:00] and where we lived very, very conservative town that we lived in. So that was that was the coming out to the parents, which was It's a bit hard, but I expected it. I expected I. I actually expected a lot worse when I came out to them, but, um, yeah, now I'm I'm dealing with a little easier. They I said they've got their own opinions. They can They can think what they like. I said, I my life. Now I just carry on and gotta get over that And but, yeah, it still hurts, but [00:02:30] there's not much I can do about it. I'll just keep on plodding along and hopefully they come around one day, The first male I was with was about It was about six months ago when I came out and yeah, it was It was different to what I thought it would be. I felt Yeah, I felt good because I'd been there and done that. But it's like it wasn't just proving that I was gay. It's like, Yeah, I really like this guy. And it's the way we ended up and we [00:03:00] But we ended up not being friends after that. So that that had a little to know that just being used, but yeah, was wasn't wasn't, um as what would you call it? Um, wasn't what the build up was to it. It was a bit of a letdown. Ohh. Before it was great. I was really excited. Nervous? Everything else during. It was great. Afterwards, I was a bit bit down, but yeah, that was just because it wasn't what I was expecting, but [00:03:30] yeah, it got better and better after that. Every time you asked that. Anyway, so.

IRN: 443
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/snapshot_2000_jay.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004107
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089401
TITLE: Snapshot 2000 - Jay
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Snapshot 2000; coming out; gay; growing up; military; sex; sexuality
DATE: 24 January 2000
YEAR: 2000
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Jay talks about coming out and first sexual experience.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, how did I feel when I know I'm attractive guy? I probably, um I think I think I knew it from since I was very, very young. Probably like teenagers. I knew it already, but, um, everybody has different background, family and society, especially if you're from why countries supposed to be easier and and it's usually very, very, very difficult, especially in in Asian [00:00:30] cultures. And so, most of the people, I think you probably know it, and then you just suppress it, and you just don't don't do anything with it. Some people even get married, which is very popular in in, you know, wherever you come from, um, for myself, I think I I knew it since I was I was a I was a kid. Um, I didn't do anything with it. Uh, I was still, like, do whatever, um, society or my family [00:01:00] or other people or my classmates and what they do, you know, get a girlfriend and, you know, hang around with them. So I actually got a girlfriend, and, um, we've been, um, sort of seeing each other for quite a long time. And, uh, most of the time, I'm with her. We actually talk about getting married. That was when I was in my twenties, early twenties, and we actually got engaged just because [00:01:30] I think it's the right thing to do and and also both of us, our family side are, you know, willing to see that happen. And I kind of go go along with it. But I, I knew the whole time, I I wasn't happy. And it's not really me. Um, so I kind of cancelled the marriage, and But I had to get away from it from my family and order with the people [00:02:00] because I feel like it wasn't right, and and I had to find an excuse for for for both of the family, um, did have them ready for me. So I then I, I started to think about, um, going abroad to study that, um, So I decided to go to Canada. Actually, that was the main reason why I did that. It, um, to get away from my family and and, you know, to find myself. And that was [00:02:30] perfect excuse for everybody. So, I, I said I just wasn't ready. I'm too young. I'm not really ready for for everything Yet Then I went to, um went to Canada to study. And that was the time I really exposed to myself to the to the gay culture. And that was the first time in a in a Western country. And I was free and, you know, willing to explore. And finally, then I start going to gay bars and and then just getting to know [00:03:00] more people. And then I realised, being gay, it attracts men. It's not a mistake or it's not something wrong. You know, I I'm not the only one. There are a lot of people like they are very confident about themselves being gay somewhere. So I gain more and more confidence and then realise it is like, you know, I don't have to hide it. I think eventually you need to be honest to yourself and ask yourself, What [00:03:30] are you? They are. And if you prepare for the worst, like I came out to my family as well a couple of years later, because I've been I've been I got a job and now I get to travel a lot, and I work in the United States and and it it helped a lot more to be really happy being who you are. So I decided to came out to my family and and everybody and it actually turned out to be OK. I mean, they had some. We have some, um, family problems [00:04:00] when I told them. But I was really prepared to, um, to say, Hey, if they're not going to accept me, that's OK. I still can't handle myself. I still can and they'll support myself. I've been supporting myself all the time anyway, so I have no threats from them if they're not going to accept it and which some of my family are not very happy about it. But I didn't I didn't really care because, you know, that's my life. And I live for myself [00:04:30] and I. I don't need anything from them. Even if they're emotionally not gonna support me, I I'm actually say I'm prepared for them. So I think you just have to be confident about yourself if you want to come out. If you're not really, I think it's probably better not to, um, my friends, especially Western friends, seems to be less problem than A than [00:05:00] in a Asian countries where I come from Asia. So, um, they just making a little bit of comparison. So I'm totally out now to companies my work and school whatever. And I actually came out to my class. They were kind of joking, and and And I said, Yes, I am. And some of them are just huh? And some of them are actually OK, and actually, they are quite gay. Gay people there. [00:05:30] I know there's a gay guy and a lesbian there. It was sort of a joke. It was just, like joke joking about gay and and I just Yes, I am gay. I'm the first one that came out in the class. And then I saw the other ones. They didn't They didn't mention they. I know they are, but I just read them in gay bars, and I read 00, you are too. And it? Yeah, they they they think I know it as well, but they didn't want to tell anyone. [00:06:00] My case is very different. Um, my parents died, um, quite a long time ago, so I don't really have parents up until I was, um 28 and I came out after that after they both passed away. So to me, it's sort of a a relief of my burden. If I if my parents are still alive, then I probably would never tell my parents. But I would tell my sisters and brothers and most of them [00:06:30] they really don't understand. And they're actually, we had we had got into some sort of argument and and it was quite quite a drama. But, um, at least I have for one sister. She's very supportive and she's like my mother, and she's the one who brought me up. She's the only one that is. Really I wouldn't I wouldn't say 100% supporting. Or at least probably I would say, 90%. She's [00:07:00] She's the one who says Who says, Um, it's OK to my brother wherever you are, so you're happy you know what you're doing and and you're happy? We don't We don't have any question, but others they just sort of after that told them, um, we sort of like kind of drifted away from each other. I don't I don't hardly see See them anymore. II. I even I mean, it's my my purpose to avoid them and probably I mean it's been. [00:07:30] It's been there many years now. If I see them again, I'm sure it'll be fine. But I just I I constantly living overseas. So I really you know, they see them a lot. And if I go back to my country, I just usually see my favourite sister. And that's it. You know, I don't I don't care about all the others. It happens When I was in the Army, it was sort of just naturally happened. There was no one around. And [00:08:00] we have to stay in duty when, uh, the camp and in winter it's quite cold and we just try to keep, keep warm, keep warm, and we end up laying in the same bed watching TV and just, you know, naturally we just cuddle and and trying to be warm because there is no heater there. So and and that's when when it happened, Um, sort of, um, joking off. There's nothing, [00:08:30] Nothing like, you know, just watching it. And then the next day I feel so I. I felt so bad and he probably felt the same way, and we just couldn't look each other in the face for a couple of months, we can't even speak to each other. Um, it was quite bizarre because I think it was probably the first time for both of us had experienced that you would probably feel guilty and [00:09:00] strange and maybe stupid. Um, but at the same time, you sort of enjoy it. It's kind of exciting. And and I think it was just driven by sexual desire of I when I that man, it just happened to be a man next to you. So that was my first time experience. And then although we we didn't really talk to each other for a long time and actually it happened again, it happened again. [00:09:30] So we actually did it again. So it was quite strange. And after a couple of years, III I knew he got married and I didn't go to the wedding, but I knew he was Mary. I think he's straight now, basically, and he was just like, fooling around.

IRN: 442
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/snapshot_2000_gary.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004106
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089400
TITLE: Snapshot 2000 - Gary
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1950s; Australia; Melbourne; Snapshot 2000; coming out; family; gay; growing up; mental health; religion
DATE: 24 January 2000
YEAR: 2000
LOCATION: Melbourne, Melbourne, Australia
CONTEXT: In this podcast Gary talks about coming out and first sexual experience.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I think I quite liked other boys when I was in third class at school. What's that? Seven or eight? Which is a bit young, I suppose. But probably no younger than anybody else. I didn't do anything about it until I was about 21. Um, in about when I was about 16, I went through that denial period. I'll grow out of it. You read about people being gay, Um, and some [00:00:30] sort of adolescent thing. And then suddenly the world of girls opens up, and it's still very exciting. It never happened. The 21 I met a guy that I used to know when I was at school, quite by accident, and I could sense that he was gay and one thing led to another. And then I did nothing for about another year after that. So [00:01:00] I was terribly closeted being brought up Catholic. It doesn't help because you go through that guilt trip. Um, anybody who's not perfect in any way is made to feel guilty. And by perfect it's It's the the Catholic version of Perfect. Um, coming out was a different matter. Um, I was out to my friends. I'm still not out at work. I don't see any relevance of being [00:01:30] out at work. I just see that as something which is none of their business. Uh, I had quite a number of gay friends I was living in, uh, in Canberra at the time, And, uh, the only people I wasn't out with were my parents and my sister. And then one day out of the blue and my mother rang me. She was going through a fairly rough patch emotionally, and she'd been seeing [00:02:00] a psychiatrist. Uh, I think she had bipolar disease. It was really bizarre. She was very difficult to deal with sometimes. And, uh, she was naming me for a lot of things that were wrong with herself. And maybe I was contributing to that. I don't know. And she asked me whether I was gay, and I said yes. And, uh, she just dropped the bundle completely. She didn't want to speak to me again. Ever. Um, [00:02:30] and she didn't. Oh, there was once or twice that I tried to make contact with. So I decided to put in a letter and sent her a letter saying, There's nothing much we can do about this This is how it is. You're not going to change me. I have no intention of going to any sort of therapy or or whatever. And if I go, if I went to a psychologist or a psychiatrist, they'd probably say, What the hell are you doing here? So she didn't really accept that and [00:03:00] didn't talk to me until she died the day she died. My father, on the other hand, was quite understanding. I still see him, and, uh, we visit occasionally. He lives in Sydney. I live in Melbourne. My sister rang me after my mother rang her straight away and said it didn't change anything. She still loved me as a brother, and, uh, we keep in contact constantly. We ring about every two weeks, and her husband is fine. Um, [00:03:30] I don't talk to any of the other family because I don't know. I feel uncomfortable about it. Um, they're very catholic, and I think we see it as some sort of, uh, failure on my part. Maybe I do, too. I sort of fiddled around, you know, with the boy next door. That was when I was about 14 or 15, and he was only just experimenting. And he was quite cruel, actually. [00:04:00] Um, the first real experience was, uh, when I was 21. Prior to the experience, I was extremely nervous. I was shaking almost uncontrollably here. I was finally finally going to experiment with something that I've been thinking about for 0, 10 years or more and er during it, I was still shaking him. But he was He was a very nice guy. He was also on drugs, so he I think he had some sort [00:04:30] of, um a relaxant of some sort because he was a bit glazed over, um and then afterwards, incredible guilt because I've been told by the Catholic Church that that was the bad thing to do. I don't have those guilt feelings anymore because I don't see it is relevant. I would test the water with people that you know very well and see what their reaction is. [00:05:00] But I sensed that my mother wouldn't be able to cope with it, and I kept it from her for quite a long time. And she didn't like that. And when I told her that she wasn't reacting particularly well and that's the reason why I didn't tell her she like that, even less so. There was no way of winning. Um, take your time. It's It's It's your life. You do what you have to do. It's not important to anybody except yourself and your immediate family and friends. I don't [00:05:30] see how any of the gay political scene needs to have your voice added, Um, unless you're comfortable. It's not a political statement, it's a statement about you.

IRN: 444
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/snapshot_2000_name_withheld_2.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004108
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089402
TITLE: [name withheld 2] - Snapshot 2000
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; Australia; Melbourne; Snapshot 2000; coming out; gay; growing up; marriage; religion; sex
DATE: 26 January 2000
YEAR: 2000
LOCATION: Melbourne, Melbourne, Australia
CONTEXT: In this podcast [name withheld] talks about coming out and first sexual experience.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Going back to grade five being in primary school and having school sports. I was always attracted to the male form. Um, I remember there was a time in the changing room where they were getting change at school. And I remember looking at, like one of our PE teachers and our principal in the locker room getting changed after having a swim. And I was just fascinated with the Penis and having hair in it. And I thought, Wow, I'm really attracted to this thing. And [00:00:30] then from then on, it started building up. So when you were as a young child, because I was quite flamboyant and I was into, like, the makeup and the nails, and I was all camped up when I was a little boy. Then I got to about high school, and because I was living in the West, it was quite difficult coming out, especially having the real macho wild boys, even though that I was a European boy. I found it quite hard, got to express myself, and at the age of 13, I got into [00:01:00] dance and I wanted to be like a young talent time and I been dancing. Now since I was 13. I'm 22 years of age and all through dancing. I was very scared to come out. Um, just in case, because it was all competitive work. I was very scared, Um, to about year 11. I was still haven't come out, But I was slowly coming out because I was doing painting and I wanted to become an artist. And [00:01:30] through all my art life, I was focusing on the male form. We used to have life drawing models coming in. I used to sit there and try to focus, and I enjoyed painting and drawing male nudes. From then on to about year 12, I met one of my friends and then she was a lesbian and we decided I used to have girlfriends like I had a girlfriend for six months. Um, I was intimate with her, but I didn't have any sexual fantasies to towards [00:02:00] her. I couldn't, in other words, get it out to have intercourse with her. But we kissed and cuddled, and I really liked her. She was a very attractive girl. She had, like, long blonde hair with great breast, and we used to go up to the club. Um, we used to go down to King Street, which is one of the public clubs called Inflation, and we stand around and then slowly, slowly I sort of met this lesbian friend of mine, and I thought she knew I was gay [00:02:30] and I was in denial. No, I'm not gay. Don't even mention it. So we ended up going to a club one night and I wanted to try kissing a boy and going to this club like walking into three places, which is in Melbourne, But it's closed down now. It's called The Market walked in and I thought, Oh, my God, I was expecting anyone to walk around in the nude, but they weren't They were jumping around to this techno music, and I got into the podium because I was a dancer doing the competitive work. [00:03:00] Um, a guy confronted me and I was really scared, and I sort of said, No, I'm not interested. And then I went up to my friend and I said, Oh, you know, um, are we gonna pick up tonight the lesbian girl that I was with and she said, Oh, no, I don't think so. I'm too we all too ugly to pick up all these beautiful people. And then from then on, I was like, Oh, my God, I'm too ugly. I'm too ugly. So he came up to me again, and I remember having a star on my right cheek, just a little glitter star that he can get from the safe [00:03:30] way. It was all camped up just a little with a little sparkle. And he said, Oh, no, get rid of that. So he flicked it off my eye. And then I kissed him and I was there with one of my best friend and my brother. Um now, my best friend had big, strong feelings for me. She was, like, in love with me. Why don't you give anyone else a chance? Not me. And after kissing this guy, I lost my best friend, who I adore, and we were always close together. [00:04:00] Then from then on, I started realising my sexuality. My art was very influenced. I was very flamboyant. It came out into my dancing where before I was too scared to do a move where now I'm just like, let everything go. I am who I am and I'm really happy of coming out because coming from a religious family being also Greek, it has affected me, especially with family, where I confronted my mother and I told her that I was gay [00:04:30] and she absolutely went ballistic. She's like, um, I prefer to see myself dead buried to see my son, holding hands with another man. Um, but I sort of confronted her and said, Listen how this is my life, but, uh but I don't rub it in with her. I'm still living at home at the moment and working. Um, I don't really flaunt any guys. I don't bring any boys home. I've had boyfriends. I've had several different boyfriends, [00:05:00] but I don't think she's ever met any of them. And if she has, we haven't done anything to show her that. That was my man that I was with. And I'm just happy for coming out and being the person I was. And then I ended up telling my brother first, and I said to him, You know, I've kissed the guy and I don't know. I think I am gay. And now my brother, who's the oldest one? He's about 30. [00:05:30] He's a real masculine man. Um, he's black batting karate. He's a boxer. So you can sort of just imagine what sort of person he is married. And he was like, Oh, you have to tell Mum if you don't tell Mum, I will. And that was the big subject. And I turned around and said, Mum, if he doesn't tell you, I'm gonna tell you I don't give a care. I don't care anymore. So after telling my mum she was just like screaming ahead of, I had to go to a priest and confess. Now, that was the worst [00:06:00] thing I could do. I ended up going to a priest telling him that I was gay. He said to me that I was gonna go to hell. Um, being gay was not part of our Greek Orthodox religion, and there must be something wrong with you for being attracted to the same sex. I then replied to him and said, God made me to be happy on this earth. And if I'm happy, um, I think he also will be happy. I don't really care. Not that I follow religion much anymore, but I used to be a Greek Sundays [00:06:30] church boy that I used to be going to church every Sunday. And I had mum sitting on the bed, one just screaming, saying, Oh, I can't believe that you're gay. Where did I go wrong as a mother. Is it my fault? What are the relatives gonna think? What are the neighbours gonna think? How did I bring up my son in this world? Holding hands with another male and kissing him? I don't think it works. I want him to get married. I want him to have Children. And that was a big, strong part [00:07:00] in the Orthodox to get married, have Children have a good job study, do all that now I've studied, I've done uni, I've done art, I've done painting and now I've got a good job. But still, that wasn't good enough for my mother because I didn't have a girlfriend and I wouldn't be having any. She won't be having any grandchildren. I haven't really had much [00:07:30] a sexual experience. I have, but I haven't. I haven't been around that long. I've only been out for two years and I'm sort of getting used to the gay scene. I don't think I was ever very taunted, but I used to kiss a lot of boys in the night. Um, but I also did that when I was with girls. Um, I'm quite feminine, I think. And I like feminine males. Um, the first experience would have had to be my first boyfriend. [00:08:00] Yeah, Um, it's when I was 20 when I first came out. I'm 22 now, but yeah, I remember meeting this guy. Stop. He was very thin. He had blonde hair, leather pants, and he was standing behind me, and I kept looking at him, and I was a person that would go up to someone. I've never been very shy. So I went up to this guy sky, and I spoke to him and we ended up kissing. And then about a week later, I started [00:08:30] seeing him and I went to his house, which was near the nightclubs and the street commercial road. And I remember saying to him, I can play with you, but you're not allowed to play with me. Then he eventually took me upstairs where he was a lot older than me. He was 25 So he knew what to do. And I didn't do any an or sex with him. It was mainly just for play. [00:09:00] And I started seeing him for about 23 weeks, and then I never spoke to him again. So that was just the first experience sort of thing. Be prepared before coming out. Um, think of any questions. You have to be 100 and 10% sure. Um, I know there's a fear of all the gay bashing and stuff. I know I had that sort of fear, but I don't. I think it just if it happens, it happens. But it hasn't happened to many [00:09:30] people. I know, Um, so you have to be really prepared and careful. Um, especially with sex, safe sex. The way to go, um, control your hormones going out to a club. Think about the way I see it is everyone has got AIDS, so you have to be protected. That's just a I know it's a negative thought that to make myself not have any unprotected sex, I believe that everyone has the virus. And [00:10:00] I mean, you can't get the virus by kissing and stuff, but if you're thinking of having an sex and going all the way through just meeting a guy at a club, going back to his house that I have ever done that, but be prepared.

IRN: 446
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/snapshot_2000_randy.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004110
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089404
TITLE: Snapshot 2000 - Randy
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1930s; New York City; Snapshot 2000; United States of America; bisexual; family; growing up; marriage; religion; sex
DATE: 5 February 2000
YEAR: 2000
LOCATION: New York City, New York City, United States of America
CONTEXT: In this podcast Randy talks about coming out and first sexual experience.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I was a, I guess about 10 years old, and it was summer. And the boy across the street, his name was Bobby Mantel. I saw him with his shirt off in jeans, and I was stunned by the build he had. He was about 12, I would guess a little bit older than I, but a deep tan and a muscular chest [00:00:30] besides being very handsome. And it was the first time that I was of a conscious of having erotic feelings toward somewhat of my own sex. And, uh, I never got to tell him that or to do anything with him. We we were just friends, but I always did try to, um, you know, see as much of him as I could because I just thought he was beautiful at that time. Of course, we're talking [00:01:00] a lot of years back. Nobody, really. At least I didn't know what being gay was. And, uh, I just knew that you were supposed to if you were a male like girls. And so I just dismissed it, and a few subsequent experiences that I had like that through the years. I also just enjoyed them for what they were. And and, uh, got to chase girls [00:01:30] like every other boy and go out with girls and eventually got married. And I have to say that I did love her, and I did have exciting sexual times with her. So I think that what I was hoping for was I would grow out of my desire for men also. And, uh, it didn't happen that way. Of course, the older I got the [00:02:00] more attracted to guys I was and then seeing some of the more erotic magazines on the newsstands that were so famous. And in those you know, I I in those magazines, I found out that there must have been an awful lot of other people like me far more than I ever thought. And I started buying those magazines and I started getting excited by the A models [00:02:30] in the pictures, you know, Athletic Model Guild and places like that, mostly from California at the time, Male physique and and Muscle Boy, one of my favourite Maga magazines, Law of New York. If you know any of those And of course, doing that while being married, I had to eventually get to a point where I just decided. I guess this is the way I am. I now know that I must be [00:03:00] bisexual. And I just accepted the fact and knew that I had to hide it from everybody. And, of course, the older I got I seemed to go more to males, uh, rather than females. And eventually, after many years of marriage, my wife came home unexpectedly from work sick. And I didn't hear her come in because we had a a four [00:03:30] level er house and I was up in the office and she heard me on the phone with another guy and she knew, uh, right away. Uh, you know, that, uh, things were were the way they were. And when I told her she being very religious, decided that as much as it would hurt her, she'd have to divorce me because she couldn't share me with a man or even have [00:04:00] that thought. So I was divorced. I figured I she felt that I had betrayed her. And I felt that if she really feels that way, I I shouldn't ruin her life any more than perhaps I had already done. And with three Children, my brother, who was a minister found out about it. He hasn't talked to me or had any relation with me whatsoever since 1980. [00:04:30] Uh, so that's 20 years of, uh, deciding that I was not worth being a brother to any longer. And my mother, also very religious, left me deciding that I had ruined her name and and hidden all of this from her that I was unworthy. But my father stayed with me, and my father helped me on the on the sidelines without anybody [00:05:00] knowing about it. And he was wonderful. But of course, they're both gone now. All this time, of course. With four degrees up to a PhD, I, ah knew knew full well that there wasn't anything wrong with homosexuality, that it was just, uh, another orientation of life. Uh, the good Lord made diversity in everything he created. So why should people be any different? And I? [00:05:30] I got an intellectual and an emotional satisfaction, too. Uh, my situation. Although I was saddened by what I did to my wife and my Children, fortunately stayed with me too. Uh, my father didn't care, and I mean, he cared, but, I mean, he wasn't going to stop loving me, and neither were my Children, but they were not as religious as the mother and the brother. And I think that is a testament to what happens with people who are really [00:06:00] not truly religious, but into religiosity or church or whatever you might want to call it. But as a professor of psychology, it is clear in my mind that there's absolutely nothing wrong with me. There never was, and the problem is really with society. The first sexual experience that I recall, if you want to call it sexual, uh, is something that [00:06:30] I remember to this day as if it happened yesterday, because it was so wonderful. A friend of mine, Carmen. His name was Italian kid. He and I used to go to the movies a lot, and I don't know how it started. But sitting in the theatre watching a movie in the winter, we just we put our coats over our heads so that we wouldn't be seen, and we kissed underneath the coats the whole time [00:07:00] of the show. He just couldn't get enough and couldn't stop. And when I think back now I'm wondering, you know what did the people in the next row think nobody ever tapped us on the shoulder and said, What are you doing or anything like that? Nobody ever bothered us, but we had a wonderful time kissing each other and and, uh, all of that under the under the coats in the dark in theatre. And I remember that as my first sexual experience, it wasn't [00:07:30] anything complete, but it was extremely exciting. I've never been able to recall what led up to it. He wasn't attractive to me in the sense that Bobby Mantel was. He was just a friend. And he never expressed any interest in in real sex with me either. But for some reason or other, I guess, uh, maybe we were copying what was on the screen. I don't know, but for some reason, [00:08:00] we just wanted to do that with each other. And we We enjoyed it so much that, uh, we we couldn't stop coming out. I would say that. Of course. It depends on your age. Certainly. If you're a teenager, you have to remember that you don't have economic security. You don't really know. Although you may think you do how your parents will react. I would have said my father would leave me and my mother would stay with [00:08:30] me and it worked out just the opposite. So I would say, uh, be sure that you can take care of yourself if you have to be sure that you have some kind of support of friends that will you will not be alone. Should averse things come of of your coming out and wait until the time when you're strong enough as a man or a woman to, uh, to let [00:09:00] people know, because there are a lot of people really that don't care in in this year 2000. They just don't care as long as you're a nice person. But there are those fanatics who do. I mean, we hear of this guy, Gary Bauer, today stepping out of our election and saying that he will continue to mount attacks against gays and abortion. And that's the kind of mentality that you really have to be sure that someone you're coming out to doesn't have, [00:09:30] because they will turn on you and think that in this society here as much money that you may have to take care of yourself. educationally and, uh, realistically for the necessities and maybe a house and all of that, you really are far better off coming from a strong point to come out. Uh, then other people will find it much more difficult [00:10:00] to disown you or to leave you. But it's not a nice process, although I have known people who have come out and they have had wonderful experiences with it. But there's nothing guaranteed here because this is a very sensitive subject for some people.

IRN: 445
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/snapshot_2000_mary.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004109
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089403
TITLE: Snapshot 2000 - Mary
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1940s; Philadelphia; Snapshot 2000; United States of America; bisexual; coming out; drag; gender identity; growing up; sexuality; transgender
DATE: 5 February 2000
YEAR: 2000
LOCATION: Philadelphia, Philadelphia, United States of America
CONTEXT: In this podcast Mary talks about coming out and first sexual experience.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My feelings were kind of dormant since I had been a teenager. I'm now in my fifties and not really any kind of action was taken until I was in my early forties and I just felt it. Maybe I am a little different, and I should start possibly putting it into action. I basically was, uh, [00:00:30] just a male and the, uh, American society, which in some areas, it is not too right. I mean, not too open to different types actions by their citizens. I live in Philadelphia, and we don't There's not too much, uh, transvestite transsexual activity here. That [00:01:00] is, uh, meeting places or what not. So I was just basically inside until about 1994 and then I started going out and going to clubs and dances and dinner and movies and all kinds of stuff trusts the lady. Um, I just you know, I appreciate being three as what you too. That's why I That's why I [00:01:30] that's your basic coverage. Trans state in America. You know, I just I just like to, um, express my from an inside in this way. As far as the operation goes, I'm not in a position financially to be able to do it. And I'm having [00:02:00] too much fun away I with with the life of man. So I don't have any desire really to change my structure already? Definitely. Well, I was married at the time and a friend of mine, a friend of ours, One of my former wife kind of got me started dressing in her underwear and stuff, [00:02:30] and that's basically how it started and just walked up to, I guess where I am today, Uh, I'm no longer, but, uh, I think I'm happier now. Anyway, at first, I wasn't really that passable, and they sort of reacted. Some reacted like, Oh, like So what? You know, those made [00:03:00] remarks and all kinds of stuff like that. But I just ignored him and just said, Well, you know, if that's the way they feel, that's the way they feel And most people nowadays cannot tell. I mean, there are some that that just have a sense for it and just, uh, know that there's something different about this person. But most people just treat me just like a lady when I out. In fact, [00:03:30] I've been a mistake for a lady dressed as a male. So So cause I'm a I'm a school bus driver here in Philadelphia, and I were ear arranged to work every day at work or something else. And I've been taken by not my kids on my route, but my kids on I've taken on trips. I was being a lady, you know, I don't say anything. [00:04:00] I just say no. Hey, if they think it's a lady driving a bus, then it's a lady driving a bus. You know, I'm kind of thin out on on top as far as hair goes, so I wear. I do wear a hat, I wear a cowboy hat as well, and I just basically, just don't try to correct on anybody. And the people that know my co workers know I trust [00:04:30] I've been to three the last three Christmas boys of contrast as a lady. Er they don't most of them don't see them. Some of them makes night remark on, but most of them aren't except my life. My outside was always, always being You do what you wanna do. My wife. When I was married, at first she accepted it, and then she rejected [00:05:00] it so I don't know exactly what the story was there and as far as the rest of my family. No. My father has been deceased since 1970 and my mother never did. Now my sister, she is deceased now, too. And my sister does know that I dress, but has not really accepted it. I mean, she [00:05:30] accepts the lifestyle as far as me being a female in appearance, but she doesn't really want me to dress in front of her, which I have not done by her request. But she just tells me to be careful and just have fun and be careful. That's all we try to try to. Usually when I go out, I go out with friends. [00:06:00] It's always in a trans site, and we usually just go out to clubs or whatever. We may meet some people, but nothing really serious has come out of that so far. No, we just we just go out and have a good time. We don't try to, uh, don't we try to get picked up, but once in a while we do meet people. [00:06:30] You should come out when you feel when you feel you are confident enough to be able to do it without being. You're gonna be nervous at first. They just come out and and just that natural. How should we get some advice first from another transvestite or transsexual and just come out naturally. [00:07:00] Just you got me nervous at first. But then don't be so nervous to the shows. I don't know whether it's kind of hard for me to give advice, because I'm not exactly that type of person.

IRN: 447
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/snapshot_2000_matt.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004111
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089405
TITLE: Snapshot 2000 - Matt
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; Minnesota; Snapshot 2000; United States of America; coming out; family; gay; growing up; sex
DATE: 6 February 2000
YEAR: 2000
LOCATION: Minnesota, Minnesota, United States of America
CONTEXT: In this podcast Matt talks about coming out and first sexual experience.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I realised that was scary when I was 15 years old, actually, and it was it wasn't an easy thing for me. I always knew that, uh, I was gay. Uh, I just didn't really want to deal with it. Um, I just I. I wanted to get as far away as I could because I didn't know much about it. I grew up in a very small town, And, um, it wasn't something I wanted to do with. And one day I was watching, um, a TV programme and I [00:00:30] they were talking about gay teens and they were coming out, and I could identify with so many of these kids, and it really helps me to realise that, um, it's it's not something to be ashamed of or it's not something that you should have to hide or anything like that. So that really, um, was actually my starting day in the summer, Uh, when I was 15 years old, and, um, ever since then I was dealing with it, and when I was about 16, I got very comfortable [00:01:00] with it, and it took me a good year to be able to, um, get used to the idea and get used to, um, being able to realise the fact that, uh, I was attracted to men and, um, how I was gonna actually be set of friends and family if I would ever. Um, just a lot of questions were going through my head, and, um, I went through, um, a time where I just kind of wanted to do it, uh, go through it alone. And [00:01:30] I didn't want to have to do a whole lot with talking to anybody about it. It was kind of a self discovery time for me. And later, I just wanted to see what other people had done and what their previous histories were. And they what they what they had done as far as telling your parents, uh, teachers, friends, whoever, and, um, So I did. I started attending a support group, and, um, I got a lot of support from them finding out [00:02:00] how some of them came out to different people in their life. That meant something to them. And, um, realising that somebody means some something to you that, um, then they'll really mean something to you. They'll usually accept it and, uh, be a part of your life. I don't know. And be a part. Be a part of who you are. I decided not to tell anybody until I graduated high school. It's because I grew up in a very small town. And, [00:02:30] um, it was it wasn't something I wanted everybody to know right after that, I was I was just too scared yet when I graduated, um, I told my both of my parents, and, um, I have two sets of parents. They're divorced. So I told my dad and my stepmother first, and they were very, very, um, accepting about it. And they, uh, [00:03:00] we were a little concerned about me and, uh, that I knew what I was doing. This is what I wanted. Um, they weren't They didn't know too much about any anything about it. So, um, they wanted to learn more about it, so it was really good. It made me feel a lot better. Um, my mom, on the other hand, um, wasn't so well with it. My step dad was absolutely fine. He's probably the best. And, um, my mom just had a problem with it just because, um, she didn't want to see me get hurt [00:03:30] or, um, anybody to look at me different, like as a mother usually does in that case. But, um, she is doing very well now with it. And, um, I believe, um, she is getting a lot more comfortable with it day by day, and, uh, she's always there for me, no matter what. Um, what my problem is or, uh, what my question is, and she'd never turn her back on me, because nice to know that, um, everybody was there for me. Uh, my [00:04:00] friends, on the other hand, were a different story. Um, you lose friends and you gain friends. And when you go to high school, no matter what. And I just was very honest about everything that about my life. And I didn't want anything to be a big secret. I just was who I was. And, um, sometimes I just don't talk to anymore. Sometimes I do. So I mean, in general, it was it was a It was a great time of story, and I never changed it for anything in in my in my life, it's really changed who I was and, [00:04:30] um, a lot, a lot about what I learned about life and experiences and yeah, just you know how important getting yourself really is. And, um, not trying to hold back anything before anybody or because of anything. My first experience, um, started off with somebody that was the same age as me and I. I got to know him very well before anything really happened. I was I was very scared [00:05:00] yet at that time to to even experiment with anything, Um, as I hadn't yet I am we not? We did not live that close together, but, um, he actually started going to college very, very much near me, um, in Minnesota, and we became very close that way, and things just started to progress, and one thing led to another, and we started becoming very close. We're passionate, um, together. And the first time [00:05:30] anything ever happened, it was it was really something. I felt connected, Um, something that I had been been longing for that was missing in my life. Something just totally, um, so valuable that, you know, uh, I couldn't even explain it. And it just felt like something out of me that was missing that I was playing this straight role for my whole life since the puzzle was finally complete. [00:06:00] And it was, um it was a great feeling. And, um, it it's changed me in a way that, um it helped me figure figure out that who I am is so important. And another reason why holding back is going to alter your being and who you are if you don't, um, tell people truly who you are and, um, and what you're about.

IRN: 448
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/snapshot_2000_christopher.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004112
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089406
TITLE: Snapshot 2000 - Christopher
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; Snapshot 2000; Texas; United States of America; coming out; gay; growing up; religion; sex
DATE: 6 February 2000
YEAR: 2000
LOCATION: Texas, Texas, United States of America
CONTEXT: In this podcast Christopher talks about coming out and first sexual experience.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I've never been able to, like, actually give a good answer. For when? When I first realised I was gay, um, it was just sort of, I don't know. I just I just always was And you know, whether or not I knew how to verbalise that or whether or not I even knew that, like, I necessarily had sexual feelings towards people. I, I just I don't know. It was just always there. Somehow, um, I grew up. I grew up in a really, a really, uh, really Christian environment. [00:00:30] And when I when I actually did start to to hear and like, I don't know, people would always be saying, you know, it's just like so evil. You know, you hear about these evil facts somewhere, and I'd and on one hand, like I felt really excited about it, I was like, Wow, you know, there are people out there that, like, feel the same thing that I do. But at the same time, it was presented in a way that, like, it was, it was really a bad thing, and I should be so ashamed of it. And it took me a long time to be able to sort of break from that idea. Um, and actually, part of [00:01:00] part of being able to do that was I had to I had to sort of change my whole belief system. I had to actually get out of Christianity for a while, to be able to to have a an unbiased perspective on myself and just my own values. Um, and I, I don't know. That was that was really a very interesting time. That sort of happened a little bit starting in ninth grade. Um, and I was spending a lot of time, like just by myself. Um, I I changed to public school and I didn't really have a big circle of friends to [00:01:30] to sort of I, I don't know, Like when you when you change the when you totally change the people that you're hanging out with, you can you can almost change like everything that you believe you can change who you are, Um, a lot, a lot more easily than you can Otherwise, um, and a lot of the time that that I was that I was hanging out by myself. Uh, I was watching public television and they have a lot of, um, not necessarily shows that that are I don't know that have, like, a gay agenda or anything but [00:02:00] that it's, I don't know. There's not, like a, um a homophobic bias to anything that I saw on PBS, and if anything, there actually were some some shows. I don't remember what they were called anymore. Um, but they were actually like gay news shows, and that just totally blew me away. I. I mean, being able to see something like that and just knowing, like, you know, it's it's OK to be gay, and it's not an evil thing. And you're not going to be banned to hell if you, you know, if you are gay. And they had, like, some really cool, [00:02:30] interesting debate shows about, um um, just religion and and homosexuality and talking about, um oh, what's it called? Dignity? Um, I think I think that's what it's called like a, um, a group within the Catholic Church. Um, and I ah, just being just being exposed to that, um, really helped me just feel more comfortable with myself, and I think that sort of made it possible for me to, like start talking openly with some of my friends about that, [00:03:00] Um, one thing that was really interesting. Um, I. I was taking German classes at a community college up in Dallas for a while. Um, and I was I was taking all the classes from the same professor. She was actually from Germany. She was really cool. Um, but we were talking about, um, just being gay. Um, it just came up in class one day, and she was she was just totally blown away by, like, the whole concept of coming out. And, um, she she was telling us, like, one year on national [00:03:30] coming out day, some guy was over at dinner and he just, like, felt it was necessary to tell her that she was that that he was gay and she was I mean, I mean, she didn't care. I mean, it was no big deal at all, but, uh, just like the whole phenomena of that, she couldn't understand it. She was like, So I'm I'm straight, you know, like WW. What of it? You know, it was I don't know. It was just really cool. II I I don't know. I just think that's such a such a like, healthy, healthy [00:04:00] thing. I think it would be so cool if, like, it was no big deal if, like, nobody ever had to come out because or nobody had to, like, actively, like, say, you know, I'm gay, you know, or, like, make make, like, a big emotional ordeal out of it. You know, when I actually told my parents that was a that was a real disaster. Um, they're very, very religious. And, um, we still haven't, like, been able to completely resolve resolve this. [00:04:30] They they think I'm going to go to hell. They they really think, um um I. I don't know. There's there's just a lot we still have to work out on that. Um, but but the situation when I actually told my parents, um, it was it was in the middle of a fight that we were having, um, just talking about whether I could drive the car. I had just gotten my driver's licence. They were talking about, uh, property. Like they They said I didn't respect their property. And I said they didn't me in general, and, um, it sort of We started throwing out like, specific details [00:05:00] and like I was trying to just sort of, like, do atop that thing like, Well, I didn't throw out the shower this morning. Well, fine. You don't respect this, and you don't respect that. And, you know, you don't respect my homosexuality. And, like, Oh, it was just a really horrible, horrible way to do that. I wish I wish when I when I would have come out to them that it would have been in a more, um, more calm, uh, a more calm setting. I wish that I would have had, like, a lot more, Uh, I. I wish I would have had better social skills, better communication skills. Um, they pretty much ignored it. [00:05:30] Um, they they acted like I hadn't said it and just sort of went on with the argument. And, uh, they never spoke about it again after that for quite a while. Um, the next the next. I really heard him mention of it every now and then. Um, if I had a friend over, it'll be like, Well, you know who is that? Is he gay? Does he know you think you're gay? It was always, you know, do I think I'm gay? um, they they they had a really hard time. Um, [00:06:00] accepting the fact that, you know, it's not It's not like a a temporary thing or or a choice thing. Um, so, yeah, I mean, if if they right now, they're actually making a really big effort to to be really accepting and it's really cool it it makes a I don't I It makes it it it it makes a big difference to me. It means a lot to me because I know how, um, how rigid their belief system is in a way, and the fact that they're they're sort of like stepping [00:06:30] beyond that to me. Um, just like seeing through the dogma to to me as a person. Um, I don't that that really means a lot. It's really it's really special. Before I, I was actually really anxious. Um, I'd we'd been drinking quite a bit, too, and I was still just really nervous and really tense and II, I don't know, but at the same time, just really excited. Um, just because [00:07:00] I mean, I I'd never had an opportunity to act on anything. Um, and it was enjoyable, but sort of like in a like I'm doing something that's sort of naughty way. Um, just because I think even though even though I felt a little I, I felt a lot more comfortable with it with the idea of being gay, I still had a lot of a lot of, um, I don't know, just sort of guilt about it. And I didn't realise that, um I, I don't know I. I didn't see that until, actually, [00:07:30] after we were after after we were done, um, I. I felt extremely guilty. I felt, um I don't know, I. I can't explain it. It was a really strange sensation, because on one hand I knew there wasn't anything wrong with what I had done. But I had just been so ingrained with the idea that it was a bad thing that I didn't really let myself, like, enjoy it after or have, like, an afterglow or anything, you know, and I, I don't know. It actually took [00:08:00] me quite a while to be able to really enjoy having sex with somebody, even though it was somebody something that I really wanted to do. And it was something that I really enjoy doing, you know, It's just something II. I don't know. It's It's sometimes it's hard to let go of something that you've been told all of your life. Um, while I while I was actually having sex with them, I was I was just sort of wondering, you know, Is it Is it really? Is this really what it's all about? Is this really It's just like I? I don't know. There wasn't [00:08:30] a really a There wasn't really a connection to it. There wasn't really, um, any emotion involved in it beyond, just like I wanted to have, like, a really quick thought. And go on. Um, maybe that's part of what I felt guilty about. Let's just I I'd always also, I don't know. It's also part of, like, just the Christian idea of sex is like, Not necessarily that it's so so bad to have sex, but there should [00:09:00] you should It should be in a a loving, environmental loving relationship. So I think I think that also contributed to why it wasn't the most positive experience. One thing I wish I would have done differently is actually not really when when I when I came out to my friends um I made I sort of I sort of made it a bit of a big deal about it, because I I did feel really uncomfortable. And I was just like, I'd be like, you know, I have something I have something to tell you. And and, [00:09:30] you know, I don't want this to, like, jeopardise our friendship and because I I didn't really know how people would respond to it when I that was. That was when I was talking to my friends. They they didn't really care, either, though once I actually told them, um, it was just sort of OK, you know, what's the big deal? Why do you Why do you make a big fuss out of that? Or else they'd just be like so I don't know. They the responses were were pretty varied, but there there was nothing really negative. I definitely didn't lose any friends. Um, I don't think anybody [00:10:00] even felt really awkward about it. I would. I awkward about the fact that I was gay, maybe awkward about the way that I was presenting it. Um, I don't know, I. I don't really think coming out, though. Is that big a deal. I think it's more. I think it's more just being comfortable with yourself and some people I. I know there are a lot of people that actually need to come out, and they need to, like, affirm the fact that they're gay and they need to have other people affirm that. And if if that's the case, then definitely come out of the closet and do whatever it takes because there's nothing worse than being unhappy with who you are and feeling like [00:10:30] you're not being true to yourself. Um, but I think I think the biggest thing is we it I don't know, just just do what it takes to to make you make you content and make you make you happy with with who you are.

IRN: 449
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/snapshot_2000_laurence.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004113
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089407
TITLE: Snapshot 2000 - Laurence
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; Australia; Snapshot 2000; Sydney; coming out; education; sex
DATE: 7 February 2000
YEAR: 2000
LOCATION: Sydney, Sydney, Australia
CONTEXT: In this podcast Laurence talks about coming out and first sexual experience.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I guess as a lot of people say, I always knew, um, but I've never had a a name for it. Um, I can recall being at school. I can't remember how old I was. I guess young teens, I suppose. And, um, some guy said the word I said, What does that mean? And he said something like, um, that means a guy who likes fucking other guys, and they should be shot. Well, I didn't agree with what he said about being shot, [00:00:30] but I certainly knew that that was what I was that there was a name for it. Um, even though, you know, I've not acted on it. I just knew that I was attracted to, um, men rather than women. So it wasn't until or some years later, when I was 19 in 1979 that I I guess I decided to stop living a life that was a lie. And, you know, take the plunge and, um, try and get in [00:01:00] touch with some, you know, very gay counselling service. Um, and I thought, you know that that was one way of sort of getting to know somebody. I just thought the gay community was some, you know, all contained within one pub or something or one meeting place, and that there was, you know, just a few lazy people, and that would be it. But after being introduced to the gay community, it was a real pleasant surprise. And immediately, like, I just went [00:01:30] out on to, um, Oxford Street and was introduced to a whole new world. It was like, This is what I've been missing out on. Even at the 10 to young young age of 19, I felt like, you know, this is where I belonged. It was an interesting feeling, a really happy feeling. And, um, all all I can describe it as is a feeling of belonging, Um that, [00:02:00] Yeah, there's this sort of world out there that wasn't really, you know, known about by the majority of people. Um, but that was that I was part of it, So yeah, I felt part of a larger community and, um, that immediately I just sort of wanted to tell everybody that I was gay. But it was It wasn't always appropriate. I. I guess I just told those people who, um for me, it was meaningful. Um like my brothers and sisters. [00:02:30] Um, but, Mum, I didn't feel any need to, um I didn't have that sort of relationship with her where I felt the need to do that, um, so and and still haven't, um and that's my problem. She never asks her any questions, and I think she really wants to know. Um, and from then on, it's been, um, something I disclose only when I really need to. Um, I don't think, you know, people don't walk around generally saying, you [00:03:00] know what? That that I'm heterosexual or I'm homosexual or or whatever, but, um, if somebody asks or somebody's interested, then it's no problem. Um, all I know is that at at that time at that sort of coming out time, I remember it really Well, I remember it being one of the happiest times in my life. Um, the the the feeling of freedom and of, you know, finding who I was, I suppose, well, a lot about myself. There was a lot [00:03:30] more growth and development and education that came after that. But it was, um I guess, really, And realising that you don't have to lead the rest of your life in a in some sort of way. That doesn't feel really comfortable or it doesn't suit you. And that really isn't true. Well, when I first came out to my friends II, I guess I was really worried. Um, it's just [00:04:00] that you don't know what sort of reaction. It wasn't that I wasn't scared that I'd lose them as friends or anything like that. I mean, you know, So what if I did? It's not a tragedy. Um, but I guess it it meant having men to confront, you know, you know something. Not very pleasant. Like, um, you know, if they said something dreadful or, you know, made some derogatory comments or something like that. So it really wasn't the the friendships. I mean, they're they're valuable, of course, but not as valuable as my identity and my feeling good about myself. [00:04:30] Um, and really, I found that, um, people I just said Oh, yeah, I thought so. Or, um, there was not much reaction at all. Or, um, don't recall. There's no reaction. That is, I guess, significant enough for me to have a great memory of, um all positive. Um, I can't think of any really negative ones. Um, but generally, [00:05:00] people, you know, if people aren't really interested, it's kind of, you know, you read the body language, and the eyes move, and the subject changes. But never ever have I encountered any, um, any form of, uh, and, uh, um, a response that I wouldn't call, you know, um, normal. Um, I haven't felt any Haven't felt any sort of, um, aggression or, um, disappointment [00:05:30] or anything like that. I know people do. I mean, I know people do experience. I'd have a, um a great deal of problems with it, but yeah, I generally found that, You know, most people are sort of quite happy that, um you know that you are a bit more confident or that you do feel, you know, that you do appear a little bit more, um, happy. And, um, I suppose a lot of people really, you know, deep down do know. Anyway, um, sometimes before you [00:06:00] do, um, my first sexual experience. I remember that was with, um, a friend that I was going to school with, um and so I've known him for quite a while, and I think I was only about 0, 16, I think. And, um, we had both had a bit to drink, and, um, I was there at his house, and in fact, he was going out with my cousin at the time, [00:06:30] and we'd only sort of all just been out together, and I was staying over there and yeah, I had a bit to drink. And, um um, yeah, things just happened, but I didn't really feel like, didn't really feel like a, um, sexual experience because it was all really secretive, and it was almost like, you know, this happened sort of thing. Um, it really didn't feel like I'd confirmed anything about myself at all. Um, that seemed to be a much more not an emotional thing, [00:07:00] but something that came from the inside, something that came out, you know, in regard to being honest with myself rather than anything else. But, um, yeah, but I guess the the experience that will be memorable in that it was like the first opportunity, I guess, um, before that, it was all just sort of fantasy, you know, 24 hours of, um imagining what I might be doing and with whom. But it, uh, after that after I came [00:07:30] out, my first sexual experience was all about the first person I could get my hands on. Really? Um, and it was good. Yeah. I. I can recall it. Um, I recall it being quite comfortable. And, um, of course, it's the first time you do this and the first time you do that and there's a few first, um, and yeah, they're all good or memorable. I recall the first year after I came out was I was [00:08:00] really quite active. And it was sounds a bit, I suppose. But I was, um, counting the number of different people that I've been with, Um, it was almost like a bit of a game. Um, and I know that isn't all that unusual. I just guess I It is what I think about now. Um, but that was an exciting time. I mean, just sort of, you know, exploring different situations as well and different people. Um, I guess [00:08:30] as you get a little bit older, that sort of adventuring has sort of stopped a little bit, but, um, the thought of it doesn't because it doesn't go away. My message to anyone thinking of coming out is. Do it no matter what the consequences, but do it in a way that's safe. I mean, do it in a I think it's a good idea to be to be rather, um, discriminating [00:09:00] in who you tell, Um, it's so I think coming out is not coming out to other people. It's really coming out to yourself, um, and being able to live a lifestyle. It's honest. It's, um and there's a feeling, sort of nothing like it. But you know, um, really look at who you want to tell and why you want to tell them. Is it really necessary? Um, but yeah, my, my advice generally [00:09:30] would be that it's just better to live honestly and, um, you know, to to enjoy who you are, Um, and try not to take on, you know, too much a lot of the judgments you've heard from other people. Um, over time, Um, I think, you know, there's been that's a product of different things that people have learned over their lifetime. And, um, you know, we live in a society [00:10:00] that only understands heterosexuality is normality. For whatever reasons.

IRN: 450
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/snapshot_2000_matthew.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004114
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089408
TITLE: Snapshot 2000 - Matthew
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; Australia; Snapshot 2000; Sydney; coming out; family; gay; growing up; sex
DATE: 15 February 2000
YEAR: 2000
LOCATION: Sydney, Sydney, Australia
CONTEXT: In this podcast Matthew talks about coming out and first sexual experience.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I realised that I was gay from, I guess, a fairly early age compared to what? I've sort of spoken to a lot of other people that I realised that maybe I was an early starter. It was about the age of 12 when I began to notice, um, my own body and also, um, other people's. It wasn't necessarily men or women. It was both. And then there was a phase where I guess I could have considered myself bisexual. [00:00:30] And that was, I guess that lasted for about a year or two. Maybe the age of 13. 14. Um, there was nothing that directly influenced me. But as I grew older, the attraction to women, I think just became less and the attraction for men became stronger. And to the extent where eventually I just no longer looked at women. Um, this was a little bit of a shock [00:01:00] to me at first, I guess, um, but it was something that I just assumed would come back, and it never did for me. So I guess I'm still waiting. I have a lot of female friends, and I still get along with women a lot, and actually, I probably get along with them as friends a lot, a lot better than a lot of my male friends. But in terms of a physical attraction, there isn't any other than me being able to notice a woman [00:01:30] and saying she's beautiful or she's very pretty or she's fairly ordinary. I can definitely comment on the state of their looks, but without me thinking that there was any sort of sexual attraction there, whereas with a male body, I guess I can look at a male and think, Yes, he's this or he's that. But there's also the element of whether or not I would be sexually attracted to him. So I grew up knowing that I was attracted to men. [00:02:00] But I also grew up in an environment where I found myself, um, around a lot of homophobic people. My parents were certainly not tolerant of gay people and I guess being based in the theatre as I wanted to be growing up as a somebody learning, singing and dancing. My parents were particularly paranoid that I would be mixing with a lot of gay people and that somehow they would try and convert me [00:02:30] and or approach me or molest me or whatever they thought they were going to do. None of which ever happened. Even though I was surrounded by a lot of gay people, I didn't actually find any of them attractive. They were all a lot older than me. I was only say, 15 or 16 at the time. And so I was definitely around gay men. But there was no, um, threat. There was no try. Try to convert me or anything like that. And at the same time, at my [00:03:00] my behalf, I didn't feel the need to approach them or to come out with my own sexuality. So it was something that I suppressed for a long time. Um, that was growing up in the country. And then when I left school, I went to university for four years and I moved to, um Brisbane, which is a, uh, a smaller city in of Australia. But it's still I think it's over a million in terms of its population. And it wasn't [00:03:30] until I was 20 years old that I finally began to think that not so much that there was a need for me to come out, but that I guess I want to define, um, somebody who I could have a boyfriend and have that sort of intimacy with it wasn't the sexual urges that I, um, was looking to satisfy, but an emotional bonding, I guess, that I wanted to have with somebody. So it wasn't [00:04:00] until almost until I was 21 that I had my first sexual experience, which also happened to be with the person that I was my first boyfriend. And so that, um, relationship lasted a year and I was always quite, um, I guess something that's always I've been proud of is that my first sexual experience was in a loving relationship with somebody that I had been friends with for a long time and then was in a relationship for for about 12 [00:04:30] months. The first person that I told that I was gay was my first boyfriend, and the second person that I told was my best friend, who was also a friend of my first boyfriend. Um, and he had a lot of trouble accepting it, because I had gone through this, um, phase for a few years of trying to delude myself or not so much myself. But my friends [00:05:00] and assume a straight role by commenting on women. Like saying, Oh, she's she's very attractive or she's really pretty Or she has big breasts or whatever I knew I thought would be able to convince my friends that I was actually looking, Um, and quite often, if we watch a video, um, we we if we were picking a video and I'd think, OK, I'll pick this video and I'll say, Oh, that girl looks pretty or whatever when it was really in my head the guy that I was looking at [00:05:30] at on the video cover But to, um, keep the illusion going, I would always comment on the female. So that was what made it difficult, especially for my best friend to come to terms with when I had for so long gone out of my way, not only just to conceal it, but also to make it look more obvious by um, pointing out my attraction or my so called attraction to females. Um, so he had a lot of issues with that, and he also had a lot of issues [00:06:00] with the fact that the person I was dating he'd actually introduced me to and he the way he had done it, he he introduced me to this person and then a few days later, he said, Oh, you know that person I introduced you to they're actually gay, and he sort of said it as a sort of a sniggering remark, almost. And that was when my mind started thinking, Oh, my goodness, this person is gay And I've also found them attractive. So that was, in the end, why I pursued the friendship with them [00:06:30] calm. And I didn't tell either of them that I was gay at the time. And so they both thought that I was just looking at this other person is just a friend, which I was, but at the same time, I was also developing feelings for them. So my best friend had a lot of problems with this as well. And it wasn't until um, probably probably a good 12 months down the track. Before he began to realise that I hadn't changed as a person [00:07:00] and the friend that he always thought I was, I still was. He, um he had never had a girlfriend of his own at that stage as well, so I think he felt threatened by the fact that, um, we had always had each other's company. And it was almost the fact that even though he was my best friend and he wasn't gay, we still had a sort of intimacy. And there was this relationship between us that was a very non sexual one, that almost probably almost the If [00:07:30] if you had seen us together, you would have almost thought we were in a relationship just because we did have such a close friendship. And so I think the fact that there was another male entering into the scene the firstly it took away from the relationship of the friendship. But he also saw it as, um somebody converting me to something that I wasn't. I haven't actually come out to [00:08:00] my parents officially, but this all happened around my 21st birthday. And, um, the fact that this new person was suddenly around all the time who hadn't been in my life before my parents became very Susi suspicious. And although I thought my boyfriend was fairly straight acting and I'm assuming they my parents picked up the body language between us, which, um, I didn't really know that we were making [00:08:30] such obvious sort of flirtation across the room or whatever you would like to call it. But they saw a change in my mannerisms or whatever and did confront me about it. Um, and I wasn't expecting the question at the time, so they didn't actually ask if I was gay, but they asked if my boyfriend was and me not being prepared for the question. I just said No, of course not. Don't be silly. And I went away because I wasn't [00:09:00] living with my parents at the time I was living in Brisbane, Um, I went back to university for three months, and then at the end of the year, it was Christmas and I'd gone home again, expecting the question to be put to me again because I was still seeing this person. He was still around all the time, and this time I was prepared for the question and I would have said Yes, I am. Oh, yes, he is. And yes, I am as well. However, the question was never put to me again. And so, not [00:09:30] knowing whether to rock the boat or what to do, I just ignored it, and I always. And it has just been that unspoken thing ever since. Um, so in my mind, I think that they know. But I think it's one thing to have it, um in your in your mind is I think my son is gay and another thing for your son to come to you and say Yes, I am So it's not confirmed to them although they had asked my sister about her comments about it. [00:10:00] Um, and she does know about me and I used to live with her. And she's very open minded about things like that and her. Her only comment was she denied knowing, but she said to them, I don't know if he is or isn't. Why don't you ask him? But if he says yes, what would it matter? And their one comment was they didn't care whether I was or not, but they would be very concerned that somebody had made me that way again, sort of linking back to their comments [00:10:30] in previous years that if I was around gay people, they would try and convert me and all that sort of thing. So there's always been this fear that all this misunderstanding that somehow if I ended up gay, it wasn't through my own development. It was because of outside influences. My first sexual experience is something that I had to a certain extent planned in the fact that I had now [00:11:00] been seeing this person. I had developed an emotional bond with them, and so I assumed that they would be the first person that I would have sex with. Um, the first sexual experience I had wasn't in terms. Um, as much sex as it was just a lot of kissing. And that happened, Um, all night, one night on my parents' lounge, and I think that to me, was a more special moment than my actual [00:11:30] first sexual experience, which happened the following night. Um, something that I'd always just been interested in was what the sensation of kissing somebody was and having just that close male to male contact. Um, in terms of a sexual experience. I think it wasn't that big a deal when I ended up having sex, because to me, it wasn't anything more than what I could have done to myself. [00:12:00] In terms of the the release of sexual tension or anything like that. What had gone on the night before with the intimacy between me and my boyfriend to me was a lot more significant in my life than anything that had come before or that had come after. I think that was the turning point. Because that was my first, um, time sort of realising, I guess that I was gay and that this wasn't a disgusting thing for me to do or anything like [00:12:30] that. It just felt very natural. And I enjoyed it. Um, I enjoyed hugging and kissing and just having that bond. Um, And I guess for me now, when even in when I'm having sex with somebody, that is always the intimacy that I look forward to enduring sex probably more or as much as the actual part of having sex. [00:13:00] I think the biggest message is Wait until you're ready for it. And I think there's a lot of people that, depending on their environment, depending on where they've grown up, it really matters a lot as to how well you plan it. If you just you're in an environment that isn't particularly tolerant to you coming out. Look at yourself hard and think? Is there really that big [00:13:30] a need for me at this stage in my life to subject myself to having to come out? Or is it something that I can put off for a year or six months, or however long? It is, until your circumstances allow you to come out without, um, a backlash that could affect your education or that could affect your family stability. Obviously, it's always gonna affect your [00:14:00] family to a certain extent and your yourself to a certain extent, Um, you just have to look at your parents, your friends. Your support network, I think, is very, very important. I was lucky that when I did come out, I had begun to develop a support network of friends. But if I did have a very bad backlash, I wouldn't have been on my own. But at the same time, I was also independent that I was living out of home. So again, if my parents had found out and [00:14:30] they had sort of thrown me out of the family or something, I could have survived on 2 ft. Um, and obviously that's not going to happen with every family, because I think a lot of parents are extremely supportive. Um, and some are not. And only you know how your parents are gonna react. Um, but think of the long term consequences rather than just looking at. This is something I need to do for today because it's building up inside me too much. I just have to tell them I think you just need to plan it [00:15:00] and have some sort of network or something to fall back on if it all ends up going wrong. But if it all ends up going right then or if you think it it is, then good luck to you and just do it whenever it is appropriate. So if it if it means that you're a 15 year old and it's appropriate, then do it if it means you've got a If you're a 21 year old and you're only just beginning to accept that, maybe this is what you are. Then wait until [00:15:30] you're 21. It really depends on the person, and and whenever they're ready, don't let anyone force you to to come out.

IRN: 451
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/snapshot_2000_mike.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004115
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089409
TITLE: Snapshot 2000 - Mike
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Snapshot 2000; Wellington; coming out; gay; growing up; sex
DATE: 17 February 2000
YEAR: 2000
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Mike talks about coming out and first sexual experience.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I realised I was gay. Probably about 17, maybe, Um, a guy I've met. I knew for years was my best mate. And, um, one night he stayed over and we were sort of like sitting outside playing spin the bottle as you do with your kids, you know, drink booze and tell dirty stories. And, um, I asked him if he ever thought about being gay and he said no. And then he asked me and I said, Yeah, sort of. And, um, he [00:00:30] said, Have you ever had any sexual fantasy back eyes? And I said, Yeah, all the time. And then he said, Who? And I said, Oh, I don't really want to tell you this And he said, No, tell me And I said, you and he went really? And I said, Yeah, and then he said, Well, to be perfectly honest with you on the phone, and I was quite shocked by that because he was the last person I ever expect to to understand. And, um and so we carried on talking and we ended up in bed together. [00:01:00] And then the next morning, I felt so bad, I thought I'd done something wrong. and we never talked. We didn't talk about it because we were both so freaked out about it. And, um, so I didn't talk to her for about probably two months after that, and I was in complete shock. And then, um, I used to go to a youth group sort of thing. I wasn't a Christian or anything like that, but a lot of my friends were, and they went to that, and I went along, and he used to go to that, too. [00:01:30] And, um and then I saw him there. And, um, we ended up talking, and it just ended up being a sexual thing with that friendship. And, um, one day or one night, we got together and, um, I said to him, This can't go on any longer because we've ruined a friendship because of what happened. And, um, we were just using each other for sex, Really? And it was pretty bad. Um, it it really screwed the both of us up because [00:02:00] it was the wrong time in the wrong place. And I've never come out at that stage and neither a tea. And so it stopped. And then I came out to my friends, probably about two months after that happened. And, um when I told my best friend Catherine, I was so scared because I didn't know anybody gay apart from Jody, a friend. And then I told her, and she said to me, um, you're the bestest friend I've ever had. Mike, I love you just the way you are gay, Straight, Whatever she said, you're still Mike. It doesn't matter [00:02:30] what you are. And, um, that made me feel so good because I had so much support and coming up to the first person was the hardest. But after that, there were a breeze. And, um, the whole time I came out I made so many more friends because so many more people saw me differently because I was more open and honest with them there without lying or covering up cos they they could tell something was wrong. And, um, I never, ever, ever had one problem. In fact, I had complete bliss, [00:03:00] and, um, yeah, I've never had one problem at all. The only thing I really was bad was when I came out to mum, you know? But she's OK now. She's really good. She doesn't understand it completely, but she knows it's me and I can't change. And, um, I wouldn't it be any other way now I think I've always had desires for guys. I mean, I've had lots of girlfriends when I was younger, but it was never anything. It was liver [00:03:30] the right time or the right place to grow a relationship with a woman. And every time something ever became serious with a woman, it always turned bad. And, um, I keep thinking to myself, No, it's just me. It's just me being paranoid But I had a lot of dreams about guys. I mean, I never masturbated until I was 17. That was after I first had sex. I never really had the desire for that. And, um, so before then, all my wet dreams were about guys, and I thought [00:04:00] that was just, you know, a phase. And, um and there's this one dream that was always the same dream over and over, and one night, cos I'm going forward in time now. So I first time I ever went to a cap back was Toledo. The same thing happened to me in the bar that happened to me in my dream and it became reality. And I knew that I was gay because my dream stopped and [00:04:30] I didn't feel so insecure. I felt that I found my true self. And, um, I was sitting in a bar with this guy. I didn't know who he was, and, um, I said, I can see it now. Clearly in my mind, I was It was All I could see was from the neck down, and I was sitting next to him at the bar and, um, my temptations got, got the got the best of me, and I reached over and grabbed his and it was a [00:05:00] that was my dream. That's all it ever was. And none of my dreams were ever sexual, never sexual. It was always emotional and, like two guys, you know, holding each other or, you know, fondling or kissing. It was never, ever sexual. I never, ever saw a guy sexual in my dream with dreams when I was a young kid. So yeah, I went to a support group [00:05:30] called icebreakers, which was back in those days. I don't know if it's still around there, and, um, I met a couple of guys who I worked with there and, um, friends of mine introduced me to another guy who actually lived where I lived in. And, um, Mum asked me how I met this guy and what his intentions were. And I said, Just a friend, he was a lot older than me. He was 11 years older than me, but it was never It was never a sexual thing. And, um so she [00:06:00] asked me in plain words, was he an as bandit? And I said, I don't know what you mean. I had an idea, but I didn't want to say it. And she said, Is he gay? And I said, Yes, he is. And she asked me how it was, and I said, no. Oh, and the reason why I said no was because, um, the timing was not right. I did not feel the time was right to come out to my mum to tell her I was gay. I had to wait for the right moment, and, um, she kept pestering me and pestering me for weeks and weeks. We argued over [00:06:30] it, we had bad fights over it, and one day I just gave her and couldn't handle it any longer and told her I was gay and she kept telling me it'd be OK. It'll be OK. And, um so I thought maybe she will be OK because she liked my friends who she knew were gay. So I thought if she can accept them, she can accept her own son. And I told her I was and, um, things got messy. Um, we didn't talk for probably I. I walked out of home, I couldn't handle the strain and things got messy. We [00:07:00] didn't talk for about four months, and, um then we started getting talking again and the way we are now or have been for the last four or five years. We've never been so close. Never. So, um, it pays off. It does pay off in the long run. They do accept you better because they know you're honest with them. There's no more lives than hurt. And I think the reason why she's so understanding now is because she knows I'm not gonna get married and have kids. And then later on, [00:07:30] I find out and hurt a lot of people's lives break up a lot of people's lives. So I think she's in a way happy. I am. I know what I am now and not when I'm 35 40 etcetera. So and I I also look back at home and, um, my stepfather and that who she's remarried is awesome. It's the best thing for her, and it's been the best thing best thing for me, not a problem at all. They can both sit there and watch a gay programme on TV and not even get disgusted. [00:08:00] Actually found it interesting and understand me better that because they class the average gay person as being feminine, dressing up in women's clothing and, you know, performing an or sex and they know I don't do not. They know I do not do any of those, so they just see me as being a normal heterosexual guy. But I'm gay who prefers men, and they don't even class me as [00:08:30] being gay because I'm not gay orientated. They just see him as a normal person, and it's really good for me, too, because I am just a normal guy. I cannot handle drag queen. I don't like it. Um, it's just me, um, working at Bojangles as I did for over a year, seeing a lot of those drag it. I liked watching it. I found it very amusing. But, um, it also gave me an ill feeling in my stomach. [00:09:00] My theory is you're gay. You're a man. You're born a man. I don't understand why a lot of these guys had to become feminine and become like that. I don't understand it. And why lesbians become shaved heads, tattoos, masculine. I don't know why that is, but, um, I just don't understand it, and it's just I don't know, as nasty as it sounds, it sickens me even though they're just the same as I am. But they have to have different views and feelings. So I suppose you could say, in a way, I am. [00:09:30] I am a little judgmental, but I tolerate it because I have to tolerate it. And but I don't show it. I still, you know, get on with them. I still accept them for them. And, um, I don't say what I feel because I don't need to, because I can hide it well and cover it up. But, um, I've got a lot of gay friends who are feminine the guy I work with are feminine, but he's he's the best mate I've ever had. But I as I've got to know them, I've got [00:10:00] to know them as a person, not as what I saw. So, yeah, it pays to not to be judgmental, and I've learned that, especially in the gate authority. It's a very hard lifestyle. But it's only hard if you if you make it hard, it can just be as easy as a normal life. I think you have to wait until the timing is right. Don't just say it because it sounds good. Um, you've got to know yourself if you're gay or [00:10:30] by, um, it's a hard one to say because everybody's different. So living a gay lifestyle is what you make it just like a heterosexual life, Um, can be as happy or sad as you want it to be. Um, just be open, be honest, be genuine, and you'll get along. You'll go a long way. You'll live a long, happy life. I'm the happiest one of the happiest me life. Well, I hope I am. I think I am. [00:11:00] Yeah, my health is great. I don't stress out as much as anymore. Um, my values and people adore me because I'm so open and so honest and they see me for me and I see them for them. But you have to do it in your own time and your own mind.

IRN: 452
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/snapshot_2000_charlie.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004116
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089410
TITLE: Snapshot 2000 - Charlie
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Snapshot 2000; coming out; gay; growing up; sex; youth
DATE: 20 February 2000
YEAR: 2000
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Charlie talks about coming out and first sexual experience.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, I first realised when I was about 13 that I went through a big denial stage, like where I was in high school. It was like You're not gay and like, if you're gay, you know, you got the best sort of shit. So I completely denied it from others, and I tried to ignore it myself, and I got to a stage where it was pretty easy and stuff like that. But then, like, girls started asking me out and stuff and I keep saying no and everyone started getting like, really push, you know, Why are you [00:00:30] doing it? Are you a faggot or something? It was like all my mates they were like was a big, tough rugby player sort of thing. And they were like we had, you know, really nice ticks and everything. And I hung out with her, like in and like, um, yeah, I didn't have a girlfriend. And I went like, two or three years without having a girlfriend, and everyone started thinking, you know what's up here? And then your friends, your friends start hassling you, and like, and just being sure not mean you can buy it, but you know, you know, it's true. And, yeah, it just really [00:01:00] starts to hurt. So I thought, Well, you know, maybe if I go out with a girl, well, then maybe I will change. Or maybe maybe my feelings can be hidden or something like that, but they never actually were. So I ended up with that girl, and I actually got to the point where I was. I was quite content, and I, um the time when I was going out with this girl was like, this guy had a real crush on and like, I was like, really good friends with him at the time. And like my girlfriend was like, you know, why do you spend [00:01:30] so much time with them? Why do you spend so much time with me? Well, all I wanted to do was come out and try and ask this guy out because I just wanted to know what he would say, what he'd do if you know, because when you're growing up, you always have this, this picture of everything, working out perfectly and, you know, being good with someone forever, even if it's not realistic. But it's like, really hard and like hm. At high school and going to P a would was rather because, like, OK, I was like, [00:02:00] go in the changing room sort of thing and like and I would have the heads down, you know, getting changed. I was like, Oh, yeah, this is pretty cool, but, um yeah, and it's like, that's once again when people started getting really fishy of it. And, um yeah, and like, there was like, one teacher who was, like, obviously really homophobic. And like, um, there was this one person at our school who was openly gay and there was only the one. [00:02:30] And, um, he picked him constantly, and he ended up throwing him out of class to find any excuse to throw him out of class, wants attention for a week or anything like that. I said it was just another deterrent not coming yet. So, like after a year, it got really hard, and I decided that I tell her, and then like every couple of weeks, I got to tell her, and I just couldn't do it. And then finally, when it got to the stage where I said I would [00:03:00] got up with the tower, it took, like, two weeks to break off because she didn't believe me at all. And then I came out right at the end of seventh form and things got pretty hard from now on because she turned really nasty and she went through and told my family and everything before I got a chance to and they didn't take it. Well, um, few of the family came to my house because there was a point I was fighting and they came [00:03:30] to practically try and kill me. Well, my girlfriend was the first person I told because I thought it probably affect her the most after two years, and I told her and she didn't believe me, she thought it was some sort of nasty joke. She thought that, you know? Oh, he's always a practical joke sort of thing. So this is just another nasty play. And she reacted really badly when she finally it took a lot of convincing, but I finally convinced her she started believing it. She turned really [00:04:00] nasty and she rang up my cousins because she knew how homophobic they were and she like, she told them, and they rang up my auntie and they were like, Guess what? You know. He's a sort of stuff, and then my family came to me and some of them It was a mixed reaction. Like my cousins. They came to do some serious damage sort of stuff, and I, luckily, wasn't home, and they got my flat mate and my flat mate and told [00:04:30] them to depart rather swiftly. But then a few weeks later, they came around again and I was there and we ended up having a talk about the whole sort of thing, and it was just more of a sort of disbelief thing for them. They sort of felt that I've lied to him through the years. But the thing was, I was lying to myself more than I was to them. My mother, on the other hand, me being an only other child was like really upset because she has no chance of grandchildren, which is like, really strung up on and stuff like that. [00:05:00] My father took it really well. My sister still don't know. It's gonna be really hard to explain it to him. Um, friends, a lot of them didn't believe it, and the ones that did just shifted away for for me that, um I wanted them to stick through, and I couldn't have probably got through without them because I had a lot of really bad times coming out. Um, [00:05:30] I felt great relief. It was like I'd spent all these years lying to everyone and to myself. And then I finally got up the guts to do it, and they came out in. At the time, I didn't care what what reactions came out, what people said, how people would would treat me or anything like that. All I wanted to do is like free myself from this burden. I felt like I was carrying, so when [00:06:00] I did, it was just like a big weight was taken off my shoulder and it could only be me instead of living this life. My first experience with now it was before I came out. It was it was actually with one of my friends. We were and to this party, and we ended up just like crashing him at my house and like no one was there. And I ended up having a few drinks and stuff like that and ended up talking, and [00:06:30] I found that he was gonna be moving away to Australia and we talked about all sorts of things about life, about about feelings. He was another one who didn't have a girlfriend, but no one could have ever picked anything about him. But he admitted to me he was gay and I moved to him the way I felt. And then he questioned me because I had a girlfriend at the time and it just felt right because it was like, OK, yeah, I am. [00:07:00] I'm gay. It's like, this isn't some Most, you know, this isn't some dream I've had or something like this. It's like I really felt like at the moment it was the perfect thing to do and yeah, I don't know how to explain it. It was just Oh, it was just good to be with them out and know that it wasn't gonna go any further, and so no one would care. And I could just get hung up in the moment instead of worrying about the repercussions of it. [00:07:30] The anticipation of it was, uh, disbelief. It's like when we're talking about it. And he told me, I just I didn't believe it. It's not that I didn't want to. It was probably I did want to and I just thought it was like, you know, I was just testing me sort of thing. So I it took a couple of guts to say, you know that Well, yeah, so am I sort of thing doing it. It was, um how would you describe it? It was It was relief. It was [00:08:00] It was really central. It was It was fun. And it was It was It was more like a friend thing. It was, Yeah, it was just a friend last sort of moment. But afterwards, it was just like we talked really well and like, we still keep in contact and stuff via email. But I just I think that helped me a lot in realising, You know, when I did come out, it was other gay people because like, there wasn't that many around [00:08:30] that I knew of at the time until I did finally come out.

IRN: 453
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/snapshot_2000_edward.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004117
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089411
TITLE: Snapshot 2000 - Edward
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; Canada; Snapshot 2000; Vancouver; alcohol and drug abuse; coming out; family; gay; stereotypes
DATE: 26 February 2000
YEAR: 2000
LOCATION: Vancouver, Vancouver, Canada
CONTEXT: In this podcast Edward talks about coming out and first sexual experience.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I was an only child, uh, an only boy and the oldest in my family, uh, out of all the other cousins and so on. And, uh, I was really close to my mom, and I guess, um, you know, and I was always a bit odd. I always, uh it, I guess a little bit effeminate, or people just didn't quite know what was going on. And, uh, you know, I didn't like hanging out with guys very often, uh, playing sports and all that stuff. Um, so it's a long a long story [00:00:30] in the sense that, um, I ended up being separated from my mom. She became ill, and, uh, my father ended up looking after me for a short while, and that didn't work out. So I was alone for a little while when I was about, I don't know, about 10 through 12, fending for myself, and then I moved in with a next door neighbour, Uh, a nice lady. I guess she was about 50 at the time. She was also a single mother and had an older son who was, uh, older than me. He was about 25 [00:01:00] and, um, Well, I you know, around the age of 10, you start realising what you like and what you're attracted to, and, ah, it's a difficult time for me anyway, being separated from my mom and I just not necessarily took on her persona. But I, uh II I guess I ended up acting more feminine and like using her whatever was left of her hair products and some of her clothes and that kind of thing It either to compensate for the fact that she was gone. Or I'm not sure if it was for that or [00:01:30] if it was for me, uh, to come to terms with myself and eventually some guy friends that I had, uh, when I was growing up, common experience for most guys, you know, fool around when you're younger, uh, seeing if you know you both have the same parts and and how they work. And and except for me, uh, I really enjoyed it. Um, so you know, I? I remained quite unique, and I, you know, well dressed. And I had dyed my hair all the time [00:02:00] and and, you know, did weird stuff with myself. And at a point in time came when my stepmom was actually quite embarrassed by me. Uh, and I knew that she was not, you know, very open to, uh, homosexuals, either. So it was a different, difficult place for me to be in. Um, and eventually one day, I just, uh I guess when I was 15, I came out and said, Yes, I am, Uh I am gay, And, uh, I don't want you to have to deal with this, Um, so I'm going to move out. So I did. I moved [00:02:30] out, and, um, which was probably a good idea for our relationship with me and my step mom. But also, it was quite bad in the sense that I I did a lot of things that I probably shouldn't have. I. I assumed that when I was living on my own that I could just go and do what I please when I want. So I'd, you know, I was getting into gay bars. Quite young, under age. Uh, I learned how to drink way too much and smoke and do all those horrible things way too early. And, [00:03:00] uh ah, you know, I frequented bathhouses. I actually, as soon as I moved out I put an ad in the paper and the local, I guess it would be like the village voice type of thing. Uh, want ad and lied about my age, of course. But, uh, that's why I took on my my first real experiences with other gay men. Um, uh, it was quite traumatic because a lot of them were older. And, uh, you know, they saw me as a real treat because I was young and I was, [00:03:30] you know, I guess cute at the time. And, uh, some of them took advantage of me and so on and so forth. But, uh, from it all, I think I've grown. And, uh, you know, I'm still gay. I moved to Vancouver, and I'm best friends with my step mom. Now she's, you know, she asks a few questions every once in a while, and I'm very blunt with her, and I tell her exactly probably what she doesn't want to hear, and she won't ask any more questions for about another six months. But she's curious, and she's very supportive. [00:04:00] When I was at school, uh, you know, I, I went I lived in a small town, and, uh I stuck out like a sore thumb from other guys. Uh, for a lot of reasons. I just dressed differently and and I was into different things arts and and drama. And, you know, the the token fag type of idea. And everyone else seemed to know before I did, you know, all the all the jerks at school, all the guys would call me fag and everything else. And I had this slew of lady friends that would stick up for me all the time. [00:04:30] And, uh, it was really embarrassing for me at one point in time, because when I finally decided I was going to tell everyone, um, I I felt bad for them because they had defended me for so long, but it turned out just as well because they said it. It shouldn't matter. Anyway. Um, you know, they were calling me a fag to be derogative towards me. Not that being gay was bad. They said, um, but, you know, then when they when you finally do admit to being a fag, then they'll find something else to call you. Um, which [00:05:00] is equally as derogative. So, uh, you know, my friends were pretty supportive. I didn't lose any friends over it, that's for sure. I probably gained more enemies when, you know, people were a bit shocked that I was not only looking like one, but, you know, openly acting like one as well. Not that I'd, you know, run around with Olympus and and a lisp and tight knees. I just, uh you know, if somebody asked, I wouldn't hesitate in saying so. And I had the support of my friends, which was really wonderful. Um, [00:05:30] and that, uh, you know, they were about as curious about it as I was. I mean, half of them were still virgins. Gosh, up until a few years ago, So they were always living vicariously through me and all my strange sexual experiences. So it was a It was a good experience. Um, my actual family family, my my blood family, where my mom's from, Uh, they were, uh, support more supportive than my step mom. Only because they felt sorry for me. And, you know, they're not very educated. [00:06:00] So it was a bit difficult for them to grasp, too. But like everyone else, they got used to it. And as I said, my step. Mom and I are best friends now, and she's, you know, supportive as as much as she can be as much as she understands. And, um, my father didn't take it very well. I hadn't spoken to him in many years, and I guess he found out some way or another and, uh, doesn't want to have anything to do with me, which is, you know, just just as well. Uh, it it, uh it was a tainted relationship even before he knew. [00:06:30] So, uh, it just added to the fire. But that's fine. Uh, other than that I, I don't have any enemies out of it. Let's put it that way.

IRN: 322
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_ilott_theatre_session_3.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004134
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089428
TITLE: Session 3, Yogyakarta Principles forum
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Julie Watson
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Julie Watson; Wellington Town Hall; Yogyakarta Principles (2006); human rights
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the Yogyakarta Principles forum.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm Shay from the New Zealand Human Rights Commission. We're gonna get started. Um, and with the hope that maybe we might finish a little bit earlier and everyone will be able to move into caucuses if they're joining those or get away. No, it's been a long day. And just before we break into small groups because we want this to be a really interactive session where you get to talk and discuss and dialogue about some of the issues you've heard about today. Some of the expertise and experience and knowledge that you bring. This is a [00:00:30] This session's focus is on. Where to? From here we've heard a lot we already know and have experienced a lot what's needed now in our region. And what can we do about it individually, Organizationally, regionally. So a quick recap just to remind us of what we've heard about today. Um, after the opening plenary, we heard from John Fisher, who talked to us about the Yoak Carta principles, and for some of that us, that was a new thing that we were [00:01:00] hearing about for the first time, he emphasised it is a collection of the existing human rights for GL BT i communities. It's not new. Susan Glazebrook then talked about the a CJ reference and reminded us that there needs to be an a staged approach. That's what they've promoted but that all N HR IS must get there. And so that's really a call to all the N HR IS that are here today, um, to remember [00:01:30] and take that back to our organisations that we all have to progress these issues as quickly as we can. I briefly spoke about the Human Rights Commission's work in New Zealand and about our priorities in relation to equality before the law, data collection and trans to sex issues. Philip and Sandra then spoke to us about, um, how things are in the Pacific and the lack of legal protection and N HR IS to promote the protection of GL [00:02:00] BT I rights. Kate spoke to us from Australia about the same sex inquiry and trans rights work that the Human Rights Commission has been undertaking and talked to us about a likely time frame for the, um, realisation of some of these rights and issues. Saying that the focus, the initial focus was on anti discrimination, then she thought that there'd be more changes around trans rights [00:02:30] followed by equality before the law as the final thing. And she talked about marriage. I think from memory. Kate At that point, Lake from Malaysia Human Rights Commission talked to us about their focus on religious and cultural sensitivities and how that fits with GL BT I rights. And we've had interesting discussions with his along those lines too. So I think that will be really good if we can have a small group discussion on that as part of this session. [00:03:00] We were then were lucky to hear from Naomi, Ava and Joey, who talked to us about regional the their situation in their particular countries and across the region, and provided us with, um, insights and things that we probably don't hear about every day about what's happening in the lives of GL BT I people in those countries and we were reminded that the terminology GL BT I trans other words are not commonly shared across [00:03:30] our countries, and we need to keep that in mind and make sure that people know what we're talking about. And people, um recognise the use of different terms and They also talked about the legislative framework in their various countries and so have added some more understanding to the situation And what people are facing when they are, Um, yeah, supporting [00:04:00] GL BT I communities and advocating for the rights of GL BT I communities. There was a particularly impassioned I can't remember. Was it there? I know the woman who talked about, um the do you remember? Yeah, Muslim countries. Katina. Sorry. Sorry. Yes, yes. From Malaysia Talking about how difficult it is in Muslim countries to be [00:04:30] advocates in this area. And there was a reminder from that, despite that there are many groups who are doing fantastic work in Muslim countries in this area. So now comes the fun part where we get to talk together and to do that What we thought is really what's come out through today and through the a CJ reference are some key issues that people seem particularly interested in, um, progressing and in talking about. And we've broken [00:05:00] those down and I'll just read those out. And if there's any issues that you think don't fit that you want to talk about that you are interested in talking about that don't fit into these, then please let me know we'll add another group. It'll be small groups discussing discussing. Then we'll come together and report back as a a larger group at the end. So the first one is about decriminalising. Same sex conduct. The second legal documentation for trans people, the third responding to issues of torture. So that's about violence, [00:05:30] harassment, bullying, 5th, 4th anti discrimination provisions. Fifth health concerns, including an effective response to the HIV AIDS epidemic and that will include intersex health issues. And the sixth is about culture and religion in relation to incompatibility or compatibility with GL BT I rights. Is there anything you think that you want [00:06:00] to talk about? That's not already included in that list? No. Great. That makes our job easier. So what's going to happen is I've talked to a few people about being sort of facilitators of these small groups. If everybody wants to join one group, that's fine. We'll do it that way. Otherwise, you know, feel free to join any of those six groups. Depending on your interest, the groups and your groups, [00:06:30] you'll be looking at what the next most important steps are in your region for that particular issue. What support you can get from and give others to in your region. How can UN processes be used to help progress these issues? So that's like U PR treaty body reports the UN joint statement, et cetera. And how else do you think N HR IS [00:07:00] and NGO S can complement each other's work in this in relation to this issue? I think that's John. That's just joined us. It's quite dark. Hi, John. Good to have you here, OK? Yeah, sure. The first one is decriminalising. Oh, sorry. What are the most important steps in your region? The second one. What support can I get from or give to others in the region, [00:07:30] for example, research or training? How can UN processes be used to help progress these issues? How else can N HR IS and NGO S complement each other's work? So I've talked to there was a quite a lot of interest in relation to culture and religion, and I've talked [00:08:00] with and his and Lake, and they're interested in facilitating that group. So how about for starters, if that group meets over here in this fire fire table if you can gather around there, just take how many chairs you need. So if you're interested in that issue, please can you move down there now so we can get things rolling and the facilitators will start with a piece of paper and pens, [00:08:30] decriminalising, same sex conduct. If you come and sit at this table responding to issues of torture, violence, harassment, bullying are people interested in that? The particular Some of these. Some of these groups are going to have to just collect in the chairs because we haven't got enough tables and chairs to sit around together. So decriminalising, same sex conduct. [00:09:00] Katrine is going to help out that group legal documentation for trans people. Jack has kindly said he'll look after that group if people are interested in talking about health. I wondered John, if you could be a resource for that group, is there anyone I thought? Kate, You might want to do anti discrimination provisions and Sam, So if you've got a group that collates around that, [00:09:30] I hate breaking up the discussion. But I know that people do have to get somewhere at five. Some people, so can you bring your groups together, thank you. And whoever is brave enough to come up here and share what your groups have come up with. Yay! Jack's first. So So we did, um, legal documentation for it's called [00:10:00] Trans People. But as as all of you will be aware from the session that, um, the word trans isn't universal. So we were really talking about legal documentation for from Tonga from, um, island. What's the word in your country for trans people? Um Sue In Korea, it is transgender in Korea. And then we've got a lot of teams here in aotearoa and some of the one of the really [00:10:30] important issues, um was the difference between legal recognition and social recognition and how they interplay with each other. So in Polynesia, because there is such a large amount of social recognition that someone can be who they are, then the ability to change legal documentation isn't the number one priority. People don't. It becomes an issue when they travel and have to show a passport to go to other countries. But internally, it's not a big [00:11:00] issue. You, you know, you are recognised for who you are. The way you see yourself, the way you dress and it doesn't matter what it says on your documentation, whereas we turned to Korea and, um, talking there and no matter how much you live and dress as who you are the thing you know he lives as a guy, but his all his documentation it has a number on it, and the first digit is is is a one If you are born male [00:11:30] and it's a two, if you're born female and that same number, it's a quite a long number, but it starts with a two. It's It's you you pulled out about three different I DS It's used on all of those I DS so he stands there as a man. Someone else stands there as a Trans woman as a woman, but he will get called Miss, and that Trans Woman will be called Mister because depending on whether that number is a one or a two, so it's a major issue. It's a major issue, Um, in Korea, they've been doing [00:12:00] some work around, um, trying to improve what the criteria are to be able to change your legal sex because being able to change your legal sex is what you need to be able to do to change that number. They haven't got a law, but in September 2006, they got a guideline. The guideline is problematic, hugely problematic. It requires you to have no Children. It requires you to have had full sex reassignment surgery, which is, you know, it's very unlikely that Trans men will ever have had that. And [00:12:30] many, many Trans women haven't had it and requiring even just to have hormones, let alone full Um SRS is actually requiring forced sterility on people. And as human rights defenders, we have fought against the rights against other groups having forced sterility, the forced stability of people with disabilities. And that needs to be, you know, an issue for our communities as well. There also has to be no history of marriage. It's not just that you can't be married that you have to end that marriage so that you're [00:13:00] not in the same sex marriage. You actually have to have no history of marriage as well. And the the first statistics between September 2006 and um, April 2007, they showed that there have been 60 60 Trans women who've been able to change their sex and only four FT MS. So it's 15 times as many trans women. So we could, you know, in the human rights language, indirect discrimination. We'd probably call that you know, that something would that that appears neutral, has does, has [00:13:30] actually has a much more discriminatory effect on trans trans men. And they are wonderful. They have a small group there, and it's and it's not safe for them to be activists. But they're still doing it, and they've campaigned. They talked to their national human rights, um institution, which has said that the court's guidelines need to change and it needs to be a change to the law. But that was 2007, I think. And still it's 2011 now, and nothing has has has changed. So I think it was a a mixture [00:14:00] of it. In some places, this is a huge issue and others it's less of an issue, but in all but it's that balanced, you know. But that is only because there were there was all that other cultural support and then all that other contextual support that enables to people to be who they are, despite what they are they have on their birth certificate and therefore, what is on the other documentation? Was there anything else that I missed from that from our We had other really good discussions about, you know, whether you can get hormones in different [00:14:30] countries and and and all and all of that stuff. And, um but but this is the bit that was on track, but the rest was really useful to OK, that's fantastic. Thank you, Jack and your group. So how about we head to decriminalising? Same sex conduct Our group consists of four of us and two from India are taking [00:15:00] half of the strength of the Group one from the Human Rights Commission, Malaysia and, of course, from the Privacy Commission, New Zealand. We have deliberated upon the developments which have been taking place in our countries, and they have tried to put down her. So, of course, the most talk about point with regard to Indian context is the Section 3 77 [00:15:30] and it's a major, major major development with regard to the rights of the people who are having the sexual orientation of their choice. The Indian High Court in 2008 has held this particular section of Indian penal code ultra virus to the Constitution of the country, to the extent that if an adult [00:16:00] person is having a sexual orientation of a choice to that extent, it cannot be considered to be a criminal act. The very important aspect of the judgement is that the high court has drawn its conclusion on the basis of the diversity inclusiveness and here, uh, if you read the judgement carefully, [00:16:30] it says that inclusiveness is not in terms of the the different groups minorities, major groups, linguistic groups but also in terms of the the very small minority which is having its own particular type of sex orientation. So unless you include those people also in your mainstream, you can't call yourself to be an inclusive society and therefore you will have to regard their rights in [00:17:00] equality as it is there to other group of the people. So it's a very major major development. The case has gone to the apex court of the country, but basically from the religious groups. But by and large, society has accepted it and the movement has come out openly and every year there are pride parades in major cities of the country which are supported by the parents and relatives [00:17:30] of the people who have expressed their sexual orientation. We have discussed. Of course, New Zealand does not have any discriminatory law, but the question is where to go from now from here and what to do in future. So with regard to India, the NHS can play the role in terms of awareness and advocacy. [00:18:00] Since this judgement is there now, there is need to review these laws which are discriminatory to this minority. And, uh, advocacy is one of the functions of the N HR H, so the commission can come forward lead with the government here as far back as in 2000, Indian Commission has held one of the recommendations of the National Conference [00:18:30] held on HIV and AIDS has clearly advocated to the government that this particular section needs to be reviewed and then only we can tackle the issues arising out of the AIDS and HIV among the people who are considered to be MS. So this campaign can be carried forward. Awareness can be created in favour of the judgement and the law can [00:19:00] accordingly be modified in Malaysia. Of course the religious and cultural context is very overpowering. So here the support to the personal choices, advocating idea of the equality before law and support to the right to privacy and dignity can be carried forward by the commission, which [00:19:30] will also include the persons having different sexual orientations, what support needed and what can I do and give. Of course, affirmative cases cases studies can be shared among the various activist groups as well as of different countries. Domestic institutions can carry forward advocacy [00:20:00] training to the institutions. We can undertake the work of counselling so many times the people who are expressing their sexual orientation and can face a very adverse atmosphere environment in the society and to enable them to face those type of reactions. Right type of counselling is [00:20:30] a need, so to have proper manpower in counselling such type of minority people, one of the roles can be played by NHS in this regard. It is also suggested that the institutional frameworks in terms of manpower and the finance, which is available regionally and internationally, should also be availed by the so This is in nutshell the [00:21:00] points we have noted down, if anything else to be added by any of the member. Thank you. Bye. Thank you, Mr Mina and your group. I think we'll head to health, which is a little lonesome group. OK, good afternoon, everyone. Uh, my group Well, there [00:21:30] were only two of us. So the pair of us, uh, we're able to discuss some issues that are pertinent to the health concerns, including an effective response to the HIV AIDS epidemic amongst the K LGBTI Q community. OK, And one of the key. One of the key important steps that we felt the region need to undertake is that we need to understand more the health issues [00:22:00] that are pertinent to this particular group can. We are aware that there has been many studies and researches done on MS MS or gay people because of the HIV epidemic. But very little is known about the health issues that are pertinent to the ill. To the lesbians, bisexuals and trans community, including intersex. Ok, for some there are for some countries they have done some studies on this. So there is a need in this region for us to consolidate [00:22:30] this information so that when we have conferences like this, we are fully aware of the health issues that are pertinent to our group. OK? And finally in our, uh when we had just started our discussions, we had started with intersex and then we were asking each other. OK, what are their health issues? OK, so it's this kind of, uh uh conversation that we need to address and try and plug the gaps in, uh, information so that we are aware of, uh, the health issues that are pertinent to our community. So [00:23:00] that's the first task we thought the region need to undertake is to consolidate and document all the health issues that are pertinent to the LGBTQ community and also with regards to HIV programming. We know that most of the countries, and also UNAIDS, is promoting all countries adopting a human rights based approach to HIV programming and more particularly for the population. Because, as [00:23:30] we know, an is probably the highest risk practise when it comes to HIV transmission. So we need to encourage countries in this region to adopt a human rights based approach and to address the human rights that are pertinent to particularly Ms Ms, because there have been studies that have confirmed that if the rights of gay people or men who have sex with men [00:24:00] are not addressed, then we will continue to have an increased epidemic amongst this population. And we are also aware that there are other issues like mental health issues or depression that may lead to suicide amongst this group. This also needs to be more research needs to be done in this area, and also it needs to be documented. And, uh, this will enable us to encourage government [00:24:30] to develop policies and programmes that are LGBTI Q friendly. Only if we have supporting information and data, we will be able to convince our government to address the health concerns that are pertinent to this particular group and on um OK, we didn't discuss much because there were only two of us. So you should understand. Uh, now, with regards to, uh, working with, [00:25:00] uh, national human rights institutes and NGO complementing each other's, uh, work. OK, we had discussed that. Perhaps it would be good if this two, if the national N HR IS and NGOs probably it may be advisable that they use the Yogyakarta principles as an agreed framework for them to work within so that there is complementarity in the work and the programmes that they do, rather than duplicating [00:25:30] the work in the countries. Thank you. That's an impressive effort given the two of you. Um, now we're gonna quickly head round to culture and religion, and we'll finish with anti discrimination. If this microphone is working, I I'll work it from here. Um, our our area was to undertake studies to BGT rights that are not that are not incompatible [00:26:00] with culture and religion. And the, um the next most important steps are culture and religion sensitive issues. So we see the best way best approach is from a human rights based approach. Uh, we see education awareness, advocacy, campaign LGBT rights, uh, as a human being and the areas of health, education, work and employment nondiscrimination, law enforcement officers [00:26:30] and the various arms of government, the Legislature, the executive and the judiciary. And, of course, um, titles as well to make sure that the same entitlements applied to both same sex couple as to, um, heterosexual couples in in terms of support, Um What support can we get from others in the region? We suggest that we use the best experiences and lessons from other regions, others in the region to, uh, advocate and lobby for LGBT issues. [00:27:00] The um United Nations processes the universal periodic review the special rapporteur UN officers to submit reports on thematic issues such as HIV aids concerning L GB and then support from, um, the National Human Rights institutions to promote and protect on the, um [00:27:30] How we can, um, complement each other's works from NGO, S and human rights institutions. Um, partnership and awareness education, training and communication dialogue with religious leaders, traditional and cultural leaders, LGBT groups. We almost left that one out. We we decided to put in, and it was so obvious. And government and local, provincial and national governments, it's a way forward we see to identify a champion nationally or regionally to be the face [00:28:00] for LGBT rather than each, um member in a region, uh, do their own thing. We see it best to work certainly more economically and effectively to have a an overall champion for your region. Uh, and finally, the The message is equally important as the message itself home it straight anti discrimination. Hi. Um, we had, [00:28:30] uh, people from Sydney and, um, Sandra from the triple RT in the Pacific. So there were different issues for different countries. Um, but in the Pacific, there aren't any anti discrimination provisions, except, I think in Tokelau it's New Zealand's laws. And there was one other wasn't there. Oh, sorry. Yeah, It's, um, and Fiji [00:29:00] did have it in their constitution. They had sexual orientation, but their constitution has been abrogated. So basically, there's nothing there. Um it was thought that law reform case law and constitutional reform, um, is required in the Pacific, for example, to Tonga's Constitution is from the 18 hundreds, so late 18 hundreds. So there definitely needs to be some reform there. Um, in Australia, there is, [00:29:30] um, statutory reform is required. There has been a commitment to include sexual orientation and gender identity, um, in federal anti discrimination law. So there's been the commitment, so that needs to be followed through. Um, the Australian Human Rights Commission has done a report to the government on that, um, also the Australian Human Rights [00:30:00] Commission. Um yes, are working on making the government realise their commitment to changing the law. Um, there are difficulties in that. It's a federal system. So states have, um, anti discrimination laws. But there's differences in terminology and different, um, provisions. So there's quite a job there for the government. Um, in the Pacific it was discussed how the U PR process [00:30:30] is actually very helpful when other countries comment on the lacking, Um, the lack of anti discrimination provisions because those countries are asked questions and are accountable and have to come up with answers and answers such as, you know, cultural considerations just won't cut it. They have to provide responses to those questions. And, um, Fiji was receiving financial aid from New [00:31:00] Zealand, and Australia still receives support from Australia. Um, but the funding the funding has been cut. Um, so collaboration, uh, the way the way forward for N HR IS and NGO S. We discussed collaboration and the need for N HR IS to keep an independent voice. And the the best way to work is for N HR IS to bring together the NGO voices [00:31:30] and perhaps report to government on those voices and the NN HR IS act as intermediaries between NGO S and government. Thank you. Thank you, Sam and your group. And I realised before I said Homewood straight, which is just totally inappropriate. So we're we're actually gonna be on the Homewood bent very soon. I just have to make an announcement that again the plenary is starting at 8. [00:32:00] 30 tomorrow morning at 8:30 a. m. So please be here. They might lock the doors. But I just want to say thank you to everybody for your contributions. We do want your pieces of paper because we are going to put all this together as a a record of this forum today. And I, I wish you all a good trip to wherever you're going now for your evening activities and look forward to seeing most of you tomorrow. Thank you.

IRN: 321
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_ilott_theatre_session_2.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004133
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089427
TITLE: Session 2, Yogyakarta Principles Part 2
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Agniva Lahiri; Joey Siosaia Joleen Mataele; Naomi Fontanos
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Agniva Lahiri; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Joey Siosaia Joleen Mataele; Naomi Fontanos; Wellington Town Hall; Yogyakarta Principles (2006); human rights
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the Yogyakarta Principles Part 2 session.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: OK, we're going to begin just so that we can capitalise on time. My name is Geetha Misra and I'm facilitating this session and I think my main role is to try to keep time. And since I know my speakers well, we've all developed our own strategies of how I'm going to stop them. So they're going to self introduce themselves and we just and we begin. So annoy me. Good afternoon, everyone. Uh, my talk today [00:00:30] is entitled. What is trans activism? A critical reflection on the activist. The that was So my name is Naomi and I am the chairwoman of the Society of Transsexual Women of the Philippines. That's our logo. We believe that not all women and girls were assigned female at birth. Our organisation is also known as strap to know more about the work that we do. You can log on to TS Philippines dot com our website or you can like [00:01:00] us on Facebook. We have a fan page just, um type facebook dot com slash strap dot manila And for news and events about my organisation and the things that we do, you can go to strap Manilla dot blogspot dot com. OK, let me just give you a few fast facts about trap. It's a women's group and the first transgender human rights organisation in the Philippines, all for and by transgender or transsexual Filipinas or [00:01:30] Trans. We are going to turn nine years old this year. Last year we made history by being the first activist organisation in our in our country to give out an award to those who promote transgender equality, acceptance, empowerment and dignity. Called the awards, we have a five fold mission which includes promoting positive and empowering images of trans [00:02:00] through our trim media engagement. We also act as a support contact and information group for transsexual girls and women, and towards the end we created an E group where people can share information. We also have our websites and our Facebook fan page, where people can know more about the work that we do. We also work in educating people about transgender needs, issues and concerns in the Philippines. Um, every year we hold the transgender Day of Remembrance. In November, [00:02:30] we conduct a lot of workshops and panel discussions about trans issues. Also, one of our missions is to establish working relationships with government agencies, non government organisations, including women's groups, other human rights organisations and transgender lesbian, gay, bisexual or TL BT groups. Of course, our primary work centres around fighting all forms of discrimination based on gender identity and expression. [00:03:00] So just a picture of the members of our organisation. We are, um, growing slowly and our membership is actually national. Now let me tell you some highlights from the last Activist year in October 2009. Our current vice chairwoman Rica um, shot to fame when she entered a reality TV show the Filipino version of Big Brother, which [00:03:30] put to for the issues that transsexual Filipinas in the Philippines face. In May 2010, our Civil Service Commission released guidelines on how to process, verify and handle lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender applicants of our civil service examination in June 2010, Strap joined or the first International Congress on Gender Identity and Human Rights, which happened in Barcelona, [00:04:00] Spain, in July 2010. An anti discrimination bill, which seeks to penalise discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity, was reintroduced in our Congress in September 2010 I was featured in Uno, which is a men's magazine in the Philippines. In November 2010, we held a dialogue with the Psychological Association of the Philippines, or PAP, in support of the Stop Trans Patho [00:04:30] campaign, which seeks to retire trans identities from manual of mental disorders by the year 2012. Now I would like to turn to some of the these events that I mentioned to you in detail the trans identity in the Philippines. There is no indigenous term for transgender people, so our organisation felt a need to coin a new term that would symbolise our experience as transgender [00:05:00] people. So is a new term that denotes transgender or transsexual Filipinas. It comes from trans or trans transgender transsexual and which is short for Filipina. We launched this identity to about three years ago at the Manila Pride March, and so this year it will turn three years old. It includes all females of Philippine descent who were assigned male at birth. [00:05:30] Unfortunately, in my country, gender identity and sexual orientation are conflated and up to now we are still perceived as extreme versions of homosexuality that we are just gay men in dresses. So when we launched the trans Pina identity, we decided to do some transgressive um, inscription of the Filipina of Filipina womanhood by dawning on the traditional Filipina [00:06:00] dress at the Bride March. In May 2010, the Civil Service Commission released a national memorandum on the handling of LGBT applicants of the Civil Service exam for transgender applicants. The memo asked that if the applicant has changed his or her physical appearance or physical sex to conform with his or her gender identity or orientation, require him or her to submit [00:06:30] an authenticated copy of his or her birth certificate to establish his or her sex identity. This additional requirement is obviously burdensome to trans people, and we felt that it constituted a kind of procedural discrimination. But when we discussed this issue in our organisation, not everyone disagreed with it. Some, uh, some of our members, in fact, felt that to require trans people to submit an additional document was quite fine. [00:07:00] And since this happened just last year, it was surprising that it did not refer to the Yogyakarta principles. In September 2010, I was featured in a men's magazine and I was. We were all quite surprised when one of our members, um, expressed her displeasure and asked why the spokesperson for the Filipino trans community in the Philippines is generally [00:07:30] a beautiful woman. Bright has a degree and is generally single and between the ages of 21 to 30 years of age, She went on to ask, What of the other teaching women who are not as beautiful or who do not hold degrees but one who has worked in the blue collar field. For example, a woman who is married is in her forties or fifties. In July 2010, uh, left his party list in Congress [00:08:00] reintroduced an anti discrimination bill, which was quite similar to the one filed in 1999 by another leftist political party at Bayan. So this new bill was a copycat of the old one, and the old one was passed about 11 years ago. What was it was, um, proposed 11 years ago. So unsurprisingly, both of them do not refer to the Jakarta principles, although they do provide their own definition [00:08:30] of sexual orientation and gender identity. Both bills are silent on transgender people and the penal system. And of course they do not make mention of legal change of sex. Now I want to turn to the legal and social situation that Filipino transgender people face. In 2002, a clerical error law was passed in my country which disallows the change of [00:09:00] sex in the birth certificate, although change of name is still allowed. In 2008, our Supreme Court banned a decision called the Silva versus Republic of the Philippines, which denied the petition of a transsexual woman to change her birth to change her sex and her name and her birth certificate. So because of this decision, it has been difficult for trans women to change their their sex. In 2009, the Supreme Court allowed [00:09:30] an intersex man to change name and sex from female to male discrimination face, um involving trans people is widespread. A lot of transgender people in in the Philippines are unable to access education, employment, housing and public accommodations. Trans health is not covered by private or public insurance, and there's no protection from hate violence. In 2010, [00:10:00] our Supreme Court allowed party, which is, uh, an LGBT political party to run in the 2010 elections. But it questioned its invocation of the Jakarta principles, saying At this time we are not prepared to declare that these Yogyakarta principles contain norms that are obligatory in the Philippines. There are declarations and obligations outlined in said principles which are not reflective of the current state of international law and [00:10:30] do not find basis in any of the sources of international law. Enumerated under Article 38 of the Statute of the International Court of Justice, petitioner has not undertaken any objective and rigorous analysis of these alleged principles, alleged principles of international law and ascertain their true status. In June 2010, [00:11:00] the first international Congress on Gender Identity and Human Rights or was held in Barcelona, Spain. It sought to bring together trans activists from all over the world to come up with their own yoak Carta principles, a sort of declaration of Barcelona that would outline the human rights claims of the global transgender community. After the conference, four working documents in the areas of criminalization and gender identity, access to health and gender identity, freedom from discrimination [00:11:30] and gender identity and legal sex change were made available, but ultimately it failed to craft a unified declaration of Barcelona. In 2009, a campaign was launched from Spain, which involved the global trans community as well. UM it sought to retire trans identities from Manuel of mental disorders by the year 2012. [00:12:00] The campaign was called Stop Trans Patho and Strap in the Philippines decided to support and join this campaign towards that aim. We held a dialogue with the Psychological Association of the Philippines and we were quite surprised with the questions they asked during the round table discussion that we have. It did not have to do with the The question did not have to do with the campaign. Nor did it have anything to do with how to retire [00:12:30] trans identities from animals of mental disorder. Instead, they were very basic questions like At what point in your life did you question your identity? How does your family feel about your gender identity? Is transsexualism the same as being homosexual? What's more telling is that in support of this campaign, strap conducted a rigorous internal consultation within the organisation within. Within the organization's ranks [00:13:00] And so we had to ask our own members to be able to support STP, 2012. We need to know how you how you view gender, what is gender. And even among our ranks, we had diverse answers. Gender is what distinguishes between male and female. Gender is what you express or how you want people to perceive you. Everyone thinks that gender can be found between our legs, which is wrong. These are answers from our members. Gender is what determines our social role. Gender [00:13:30] is all in the mind. This is the most interesting answer that one of our members give gender is a person's identification of his or her sexual orientation. So we see that in this answer, there is a conflation of the ideas of sexual orientation and gender identity. And this is in the year this. This was just last year. Now I'm sharing all of these with you because these [00:14:00] are the realities that we face. Um, and I think that as activists working on the ground, we cannot ignore these things and we have to contend with them because strap is growing into an influential activist organisation in my country and we have to confront these issues head on. Um, as we make sense of the work that we do because for me, as the leader of that organisation, we have to be clear [00:14:30] what the end goal of trans activism is. Is it a gender recognition law? But whose interest does that serve? Are we just being copycats of the the the trans activist achievements in Europe or in the West? Is it a national organisation? Do we do we really need a national organisation for trans people in my country? Given the fact that we are linguistically, culturally, economically diverse and at the same time, we [00:15:00] have to ask, How shall these goals be met? If we do decide what the trans agenda is, how do we go about achieving those goals that we set? And lastly, is there such a thing as a good trans activist? What constitutes good activism and what makes a good trans activist? The international human rights community must accept that the development [00:15:30] and understanding of human rights and transgender discourses around the world are uneven and fragmented, as you saw in my presentation. So I contend that we need to find ways to work with and around this unevenness that strikes a balance between diverse and competing local needs and international agendas. And always, activists must be critical of the work that they do and ensure that whatever it is that [00:16:00] they're doing, whatever kind of trans activism they're doing, it is actually promoting and protecting the interests of the communities that they serve. So thank you to the Wellington Art Games for having me. I would like to, uh, make a special mention of Barry Taylor, Katri Evans, Jack Burn, Sam and Jacob MC who helped to get me here. And of course, um, I would like to acknowledge the help of the Australian Lesbian Foundation for Justice. Without his help, I would not have been here. [00:16:30] Thank you. Good afternoon. Wow, that was great. And it was She still had four minutes left. So, Ava, I hope you'll follow suit and finish in time. So introduce yourself and go for it. Uh, good afternoon. Thank you. Good afternoon. My name is Ava Lahiri, and I'm from India. I'm a transgender, rather a gender variant activist from [00:17:00] India. And my paper is basically on decriminalisation of homosexuality in Commonwealth Asia rather Indian subcontinent I'd prefer to use that word. Yes, but when we think of the word Indian subcontinent, it's first. We introduced this particular word at our geography book because the map of Indian subcontinent looks nicer. When we walked down in the street at New Zealand Cuba Street, [00:17:30] we saw Indian restaurant. They sell Lari Kebab, which truly in an Indian restaurant, Lahore Kebab. It reminds the Indian subcontinent. And also there are similarities for gender and sexuality. When we discuss about the gender expression and sexual orientation with a particular law, which is Section 2 77 which applies which criminalise, uh, this subcontinent people. [00:18:00] There's another similarities in India. Bangladesh and Pakistan, also in Sri Lanka, are among the few countries in the world where transgender and the hijra still exist, deprived of their traditional roles as caretakers of harms. The main occupations are, but which is basically a blessing in return for money or begging or sex work seem to be outside of the pale of normal society. They can't really seek employment [00:18:30] anywhere, nor do many of them rather I use the word us have the necessary documentation that marks us as citizen with entitlements and rights recent developments in the law in India are set to change such discriminatory condition not only for Hijra and the trans population, but for the wider community of transgender and people in same sex relationship. In September [00:19:00] of 2001, a well known NGO in Delhi, Nas Foundation filed a public litigation in public interest litigation at the Delhi High Court to challenge Section seven of Indian Penal Code. Their contention was that this proviso which penalised what it calls unnatural sex mainly sex between men, was against the Indian Constitution and violative of fundamental rights. Eight years. We have to wait. Eight years later, [00:19:30] July 2009, the Delhi High Court pronounced that Section 2 77 should be read down to exclude consensual sex between adults. Justice, a P Shah and Justice said, We declare that Section 2 77 i PC in so far as it criminalises consensual sexual acts of adults in private. It's violative of articles 21 [00:20:00] 14 and Article 15 of the Constitution. Widespread celebration, greed, dis judgement seemed to open the door for the open expression of sexuality, especially between people of the same sex, particularly men and transgenders. The Nars Foundation petition also made the link with the threat of HIV and AIDS, claiming that forcing consensual sexual relations between adults of the same sex to go underground [00:20:30] increased the difficulty of addressing the spread of HIV and AIDS. But while the expression of sexual preferences and the act of consensual sex and have been freed from the shackles of the criminal law, many injustice still remained, particularly for Hijra and the transgender people. It's only recently that the Indian Passport Office gave recognition to what is now known as third Gender, and Hijra, wishing to identify themselves as [00:21:00] such, can now do so more. The Indian census, enumeration of which began earlier like last month in February, will no longer remain blind to the Hijra and the transgender population, but will include a new identity. Male, female and other look at like in one way passport office Use the word. Initially, they use the word E, which is Yuna derogatory again. Then they come up with the word T, which is third gender and [00:21:30] now the in Indian Census. They use the word others uh, which can be claimed by the trans people. This development follows on an earlier movement in 2000, move in 2009 to issue Voter Identity card, which is issued by the Election Commission that recognised the category of others. The process of decriminalisation of transgender and and people who want to live in same sex relationship has begun. But recognition [00:22:00] is one thing. Amalgamation into a normal or mainstream society is quite another transgender and may now be counted in the census may be able to cast their votes, but will they get jobs? Things have been beginning to move on the front, too. On paper at least, a recent suggestion by the chief justice of Madras High Court [00:22:30] that there should be a reservation for the third six in government jobs and education has been the catalyst for the discussion on the rights of entitlements of people on the margins of society. Tamil Nadu is one of the one state that has pursued an open policy towards transgender people, giving them the title of Arani and setting in a place. A number of uh supportive measures include the [00:23:00] setting of Special State Welfare Board Karnataka State. The Karnataka government passed a resolution in them a 15 per cent of the reservation under the category of two A, which is the back of the Backwards Commission and the Municipal Corporation of Delhi. NCR recently announced a monthly pension scheme for transgender people and the National Legal Service Authority has now included transgender in the definition of marginalised group, which entitles [00:23:30] them to receive free legal aid or so many things coming to our you see the problem. The problem is we transgender people are relegated by the by ourselves and by others to be beggars for acceptance, dignity and equal opportunity and not as the rightful recipients of it. And just like the good old saying goes, beggars [00:24:00] are not whatever the powers that be give us, we just have to accept like an obedient, hungry dog to its master. Social acceptance through has now been slow in coming. Transgender and terra still remain marginalised, as do people in same sex relationship. But my paper was also [00:24:30] talking about the other neighbouring countries, so I'll just quickly go through the story about Bangladesh and Pakistan well in Bangladesh, Prosecution under section 377 of B PC, which effectively makes homosexual sex illegal, are extremely rare section 377 hence does not impair Bangladesh. Moderate image of the world and question about the country's human rights record on the issue of homosexuality are avoided [00:25:00] in the international arena. Nonetheless, Section 377 of BC forces a local LGBT community into a shadow existence. Their official illegality silences their voices in the people in the public service. The LGBT rights movement in Bangladesh is growing rapidly, and the voices for the repeal of section 377 BC are becoming a little louder. The issue is bound to emerge into a public battle over the young nation's [00:25:30] religious and cultural identity, human rights and modernity, and will pose a challenge to a policy maker, religious authorities and leaders of civil society alike. In Bangladesh, religion remains the single most persistent obstacle for LGBT rights. Political leaders in Bangladesh will use traditional interpretations of Islam as an excuse to keep Section 2 77 on the books once the issue of homosexuality has risen to broader [00:26:00] public awareness and Pakistan Pakistan, reportedly being one of the few countries in the world where homosexuality is punishable by death, according to the LGA. Pakistan is one of the eight countries today still retaining capital punishment for homosexuality in Pakistan. Law is a combination of colonial and Islamic law. Under the Pakistan Penal Code, which is known as the PCC, Homosexuality is deemed a crime [00:26:30] that is punishable by prison sentence with the Islamization the new word of Pakistan policies. Under the rule of General Mohammad Zul HAQ, Islamic Sharia laws were intervened and with the existing law. Under the colonial aspect of law since 18 60 was a crime punishable by sentence of 2 to 10 years in prison. However, when the Islamic laws were introduced [00:27:00] to the system, amendments include primitive forms of punishment like whipping off 100 lashes to death by stoning a homosexual Pakistani may face. I either seek secular or Islamic or in some cases, both punishment combined. These have never been carried out quickly in Sri Lanka. Five minutes quickly in Sri Lanka, LGBT people [00:27:30] living in Sri Lanka may face different legal and social challenges than non LGBT living in Sri Lanka. Homosexuality may be technically illegal under the broad provision dealing with gross indecency and no national legislation exists to protect LGBT people from harassment and decriminalisation. Yet since the 19 nineties, there has been a growing movement to advance the right of LGBT Sri Lanka. [00:28:00] As of 2010, no national and local laws exist in Sri Lanka or has been introduced to protect LGBT i Sri Lankans from discrimination and harassment. While the national Constitution does contain a broad prohibition against decriminalisation decriminalisation, the courts have not applied its sexual orientation or gender identity following the principle of parliamentary supremacy. The numerous convention and act signed and passed by [00:28:30] the parliament of Sri Lanka since 19th century penal code may have already annuled its application and validity in respect to the anti sodomy and gross indecency laws. These same arguments were used by the New Delhi High Court into 2009 judgement that effectively invalidated the 19th century sodomy and gross indecency laws of the British enacted penal code, which is shared by both India and Sri Lanka. Clearly I was yesterday [00:29:00] I was talking one of my fellow participants here and was asking that do you what is the current situation in South Asia and how does the New Delhi activism? New Delhi ruling effects to mobilise communities in South Asian country. And then the answer was, it's clear, Uh, the legal [00:29:30] changes is a one part. We need social acceptance. We need social mobilisation, religious acceptance. Look at the opposition currently, which is, I mean in the New Delhi court case is currently under the Supreme Court and who are opposing us mostly the religious leaders religious and they're looking for from a very narrow religious point of view. [00:30:00] So the suggestion of my friends is Please don't use the word. What is the implication of section 377 in your life, or rather in our life? Use the word being LGBT IQ. What's impacted you much? Possibly. Section 77 come last. In the list of challenges, we need more social acceptance. We need more [00:30:30] religious acceptance in the region to fight the battle. Thank you very much. How you doing? Welcome. Ok, that was great. My my name is Joey Mata and I am the founder and executive [00:31:00] director of the Tonal LA Association, the only LGBT organisation in the kingdom or the Queendom. I'm proud a mother of five adopted Children, and, um, before I go into my, uh, presentation, um, on Naomi Fontana's presentation, Um, every time [00:31:30] anyone present anything on transgender or talk about transgender, transsexual trans men or that Trans Word reminded me of the first time ever for me to find out what Trans is and that happened in the out games or the Olympic gay Olympics in Sydney when we registered from Tonga as a sister girl, thinking that we [00:32:00] are acceptable to accept it to join the mixed team netball team. Unfortunately, when we got there, they said, Your ID has to say female or your passport has to say female, um, whether you're transgender or uh or whatever, Uh, you you should have an ID that says Trans. Uh uh uh, a female [00:32:30] and I The only answer I gave them is, uh, where I come from. I was born in a male body. I'm a female, trapped in a man's body. I live as a woman. I sleep as a woman. I eat as a woman. I do everything as a woman, but my ID will never be a female. So I. I guess the discrimination [00:33:00] starts within us. Trans people as and and if we have to advocate or or be an activist for this? Uh, no, I'm not putting down Australia, of course, Lynn. But, uh but I'm, uh I'm just sharing the first experience of of knowing the word transgender. And, um, we need to to to, um, to make sure that our issues are, um, [00:33:30] culturally related. Because there in some of our cultures from our Pacific Islands, there's a whole lot of things that goes through and and all the other organisations from all over the world that is totally different from our issues back at home. Anyways, this presentation on the current status of the LGBT community [00:34:00] will focus more specifically on the gay or lat populations in Tonga consisting of males who are considered as gay, transgender or bisexual. This report is primarily to bring light on the social, economic, healthy health and spiritual status on this population. Along with some of the challenges, obstacles and future aspiration of this group [00:34:30] collectively and individually. With the installation of programmes, activities and partnerships with private groups, government agencies and community organisation, we have fortunately been able to share some of our basic and crucial needs as LAT population. And yet we are often neglected when crucial [00:35:00] planning and input should involve us happens. And even though these partnerships have afforded us with opportunities to educate the public about our specific needs and challenges, we are often confronted by the lack of access, opportunity and equality to information and activities that should involve us in the forefront of planning. We are usually an afterthought. [00:35:30] The LGBT in Tonga strive to be very involved in their community by participating in social activities when they are needed to assist in execution of certain tasks which may involve cooking, decorating, entertaining, cleaning, dressing up, their daughters, their favourite sons to get married. You know, they they know they've been crossing with their in laws. [00:36:00] Their social acceptance among their community is still disenfranchising because they are allowed to participate in some activities and yet they are not allowed to take on roles that might be seen as male dominant roles. With the annual Miss Galaxy pageant, we have provided a national nationwide Miss galaxy, ladies and gentlemen, is [00:36:30] the, uh, one of the, uh um OK, um Fes Festival that we that the, uh LGBT um community in Tonga um hold every year and it's one of the biggest events in Tonga um it showcases all the talents of our girls designing, singing, and and we do our most of our, uh, our advo advocate work. Uh, advocacy work, Um, during [00:37:00] that week, even having condom float parades, which is very strange for a religious country, it provides a nation nationwide and international venue for LA to present their talents and views of the public. It's the one time during the year we come together to present the best of what we can offer our community as far as talents, [00:37:30] entertainment and public awareness about who we are, thanks to the never ending support of our Princess Royal, Her Royal Highness, Princess Pilo Levu and our patron, who is the eldest daughter who is her eldest daughter, her Highness Lupe Twi. Unfortunately, even though we have strides with the Miss Galaxy, we are often challenged by the public misconceptions and the lack of financial support to help [00:38:00] those who would like to participate in this pageant. We are hoping that in the future we can provide educational opportunities to create programmes to provide the public with a broader look into our specific realities and give them a better sense of which we are. And how we can be a more positive contributor to the society in which they live over the years. The Miss Air New Zealand [00:38:30] Galaxy pageant. Mind you, ladies and gentlemen, this is this. This is the only pageant that Air New Zealand, uh, or the only um, transgender pageant that Air New Zealand has ever supported around the world. Don't know why. Maybe because I look very good or my mouth is good at explaining things [00:39:00] from being a means of entertainment to an instrument of the that the TL a Ministry of Health, Tonga, family, health and other organisations use to promote critical issues such as HIV and AIDS awareness, the prevention of STIs human rights and sexual health. With the growing presence of a I DS and HIV in the Pacific, the Tonga LAT Association has become a major part of HIV response in Tonga. During [00:39:30] last year's TL a week, ladies held their annual retreat in live in one of the villages in in uh in Tonga, which all members of the association as well as the members of the society, including Princess, participated in the two retreat two days retreat. The members of the L A and also participated in the HIV test, which is our second HIV [00:40:00] test. I am tremendously happy to report that all of our individuals that took the HIV test, not one was tested positive. Everyone was HIV free. There is an increase of ladies striving to become more self sufficient and create unique niche in the economy. There is an increase of ladies involved in opening up their own little boutique salons, offering beauty services to the public. Fortunately, [00:40:30] they have been trained by other lay mentors in this industry and lately, aided by AusAID in supplying scholarships for chefs and beautician courses in Fiji and Samoa. There are also others involved in the public health arenas as such as nurses, doctors, medical practitioners, practitioners and also teachers within schools, but who have no associates at all. [00:41:00] With the majority of late, I think these few educated ones don't realise the impact that they can have on these LGBT, who are not fortunate to access opportunities as they have. There is a huge population of late that are basically homeless and have no family or economic support. This is a major challenge for us to try and find opportunities to provide economic assistance [00:41:30] to them in trying to find employment, education and especially for those that have exceeded early from school like myself, The status of health among ladies in Tonga is very dismal, with the lack of consistent monitoring and reporting of health status for this population. We are lucky that we are not at a stage of emergency [00:42:00] in any specific health crisis in our country. But the lack of information and consistent monitor monitoring of the health status of LGBT and Las in Tonga can become a major obstacle if not realised. Now, we have participated in several HIV educational workshops and activities and human rights activities, thanks for the help of the town family, health, [00:42:30] human rights Associates. But there have not been any attempts by any one particular government agency or community group to organise a consistent monitoring and assessment of the general health issues and status of GL BT individuals in Tonga. It is not uncommon to see some ladies participating in church services in Tonga among the different religious groups. [00:43:00] They provide a very unique role in that they are a great support system when there are tasks in social activities, planning implementation. There are some that are not that are that are involved in choirs and youth groups assisting in whatever programmes and activities that they can be involved in and often can make a positive impact of the image of ladies in Tonga. However, [00:43:30] there is still a huge population of ladies not involved in any religious groups due to fear of rejection and bringing shame to their families. There is also a lack of outreach by religious groups to ladies, which could really make a difference in their acceptance within their religious organisations. The challenges and obstacles faced by ladies in Tonga can all be summed up in one phrase. Lack of [00:44:00] public education and support of who, what and how they can contribute to the social, spiritual, health and economic vitality of the community. This is probably one of the major obstacles facing them, which also contributes to their lack of access to employment, educational, educational opportunities and acceptance In Tonga, the [00:44:30] Pacific Sexual Diversity Network of PDN was formed in 2007. A Pacific Regional Network organisation in its main venture, is working with men who have sex with men, or MSM and transgender people in the Pacific in relations to HIV and AIDS and human rights that was one of the founding members of the Pacific Sexual Diversity Network. Last year's Miss Air New Zealand was significant as it was the year the to LA [00:45:00] Association launches this strategic plan for 2010 2015. The Tlass Strategic Plan is based on recommendations from the PSD NS advocacy report. This plan testifies a vision which is together we will achieve a kingdom without SDIS and discrimination. This is an interesting vision as STIs and discrimination are very much part of Tonga's society today. [00:45:30] Discrimination is not only against the LGBT community, but against the education and promotion of awareness regarding SDIS in people living with HIV and SD. I disc discrimination may be partly ignorance. That is, that some members of the society are ignorant enough to assume that ST I and HIV will not make its way and homosexuality will not make its way to their lives. This is far [00:46:00] from reality. The kingdom should come to terms to this fact that it doesn't matter who you are or what dress do you wear. The strategic plan that was launched has set goals that the TL a want to achieve. And in order to achieve these goals, they have weighed out the strength and weaknesses and the opportunities and threads. All these factors have been brought about to make TL's vision a reality. However, behind the colour and extravagant [00:46:30] of their events of the year, it is a serious purpose. The final night, of course, celebrated last year the launch of the Strategic plan. This strategic plan has been the result of the partnership with the New Zealand AIDS Foundation and the TL. A now has a clearly defined mission to reduce discrimination and preventing HIV and AIDS for late in Tonga [00:47:00] Go. The partnership between the NZ is part of a broader three year programme to reduce the discrimination faced by ladies in the Pacific and is funded by the Pacific Islands HIV and SC I Regional response as it has been mentioned by John Fisher from a RC International in his March 2010 presentation. In many countries, our work as [00:47:30] human rights defenders is opposed, obstructed or banned. Our rights to peacefully gather are often denied while attempts are made to silence our voices. Too often, the violence and abuse we endure to countries around the world goes unreported and investigated and unpunished. And for those of you who doesn't know where Tonga is, as I have been asked 100 times since I got here to Wellington [00:48:00] with the famous question Where the hell is Tonga? Well, this is to what you see is what you get. Thank you very much. And I'd like to acknowledge, of course, the Kingdom of the Netherlands, who made this trip possible? And, of course, the art games organising committee. Marlo Alto May God bless you and Happy Easter. [00:48:30] So really, let's give all the presenters a big hand because one they kept on time, we have half an hour for questions and we can get this conference back on time. At least this session will get it back on time. So we'll open it up for questions, comments? Um, we'll see how many. And then maybe a bunch of you together or one at a time. Yes. Can you just say who you are? And, [00:49:00] uh, just so that people know the Yeah, better. 03. I see. I see, uh, in in in in Tonga, we only have one which combines of trans men, which we, uh, we we don't call them trans men. We call them by the the normal bisexual, uh [00:49:30] or, uh, or men Who who, Um who who considers going with another gay man. Um, but, like, I, uh, like I mentioned before, um, the word trans men and trans woman and that doesn't exist in our vocabulary, you know, because we don't really know what it means. You know, it it takes conferences like this to come in and and and know the terms, [00:50:00] these term new terminology words. Uh, because we only use one word in Tonga, and that's and, uh, if you are a man who have sex with men, you're considered as a so I if if I, um if we don't have, um, anything like that in in our country, I'm sorry, but that's that's it. That's what we use. There is no trans men organisation [00:50:30] in the Philippines, although about two years ago we were contacted by two trans men Filipino men, um, who were looking for a support organisation, and the Society of transsexual Women of the Philippines are strapped by organisation, decided to take them in thinking that probably they would organise themselves later on. But nothing has happened so far. They are part of our group, but they rarely speak. They [00:51:00] lurk and we hardly hear from them. Although there have been anecdotal accounts of the existence of a lot of trans men in the Philippines, um, my country is considered a very patriarchal society. So that probably helps explain why trans men do not need. I do not feel a need to organise compared to trans women, because when MM and I, when men become [00:51:30] become women, they have it worse. But when women become men, they have it better. Ok, uh, for India, uh or rather in South Asia, I'd say that, uh, I'm not saying that Trans the transgender movement is started like 56 years before it was all Yes, the the the term transgender is [00:52:00] not being used Rather, uh uh. And the struggle of introducing the spectrum of gender variant or rather, the transgender is quite scent. Um, I'd like to say that yes, we do have trans men who, identifying themselves as a transmit. As Nomi pointed out that Barcelona Congress on gender identity when Indian representative [00:52:30] Satya who is also here when he represents. He's only one trans man from Asia, so and so it's so it's not that they are not there. But also I would like to remind you that, uh, as as Joey mentioned, we do have organisation in in Gujarat, the western part of India. There's a organisation of trans men, but I mean, you know, in [00:53:00] the concept of being a trans man. But they all the community, consider themselves as a high or as a brother or as a male, so they don't They don't think themselves as a trans men, but rather a man. So and it's quite, I mean, this particular organisation is working last six years so again for the movement. As I mentioned, my paper was more on section 277 related issues we have not seen much [00:53:30] like Trans men came out and then join in the street, but rather like that particular movement, start a lot of avenues to discuss, and in terms of the LBT, the word under LBT women. A lot of trans men are participating in the process, so hope future OK, just wanted to add on to that [00:54:00] and and and Tonga, they're very invisible. Um, yeah. I. I think the only visible ones are the Are the transgender. Um, but in Samoa, they have, uh, uh uh uh uh an organisation. Um and they're pretty strong, very vocal. And and, um, they're very up there in the government. Some of them are are are, quite, uh, quite known for their work, um, in the government and that they're very visible. But [00:54:30] in Tonga, we don't, um I mean, we've got two members, but we don't use the word trans men for them. And unfortunately, so can I see a show of hands just to see whether we should take a few and then give the floor back. Otherwise, I'm I'm afraid that we'll end up spending a lot of time on one question and then others. So we'll take one to 3456 and then give everybody a chance to respond. [00:55:00] So let's begin from this end, and they they're mics now, So OK. And can you keep your questions or comments also? Sure. Joey, this is a question from for you, Sharon from the Human Rights Commission. I'm just interested in the position of lesbian women in Tonga. If you could tell us a little about that, OK, we'll take a few and then go next. Uh, my name has from, uh, Indonesian, uh, National Commission of Human Rights. Uh, thank you for comprehensive presentation. [00:55:30] Uh, I would like to know, uh, what your opinion. Uh, how to, uh, make a community have a better understanding, uh, against transgender. Thank you. Do you mean the terms, or do you mean about all the issues? Uh, you mean the definitions and meanings? Yeah. How to make, uh, people or community have a better understanding about [00:56:00] the existence of existence of a transgender. Thank you. Great. So that's pretty much for all of you in New Zealand following up the first question in this batch. Um, I it's fascinating having three different countries experience from well away, but, uh, following up on, um particularly we find often that lesbians have become almost invisible in LGBTI community and looking at, um, [00:56:30] just this conference, all the papers in this conference in the parallel sessions, practically all the lesbian papers are Australia or New Zealand, and I don't think that's a coincidence. And as you said yourself earlier if you females tend to be in many of your countries under privilege anyway. And with the they either become invisible or even worse. And there's huge. There's violence, corrective rape and so on. Which Susan Hawthorne tomorrow is doing a paper on that. And [00:57:00] so I'm interested in all your countries as to you know, what you can say about the, uh because two of the three papers did have LGBT T I not just trans in the so, but I didn't hear anything about lesbian, so it would be good to hear something more about all that and OK, and just to quickly address that, uh, the plenary tomorrow is also about LGBTI, and I'm speaking on it. But I decided to focus on the L because I knew there'd be many people from India with the LGBTI who would focus on the G and the T [00:57:30] at least, So it was interesting that you know, I, I thought the reverse. Oh my God. I'm only going to talk about L. And what about the G BT I but OK. Hello. Um, my name is Jim Whitman. Um one of the things that crossed my mind was the question of criminal codes that that there was a the equivalent of a criminal code in the UK towards the end of the 19th century, Um, that outlawed [00:58:00] gay homosexual acts between men have. I mean, without, without wishing to, without wishing to lacerate the British did we manage to export that feature of criminal justice across the world. And you're still struggling not just with the criminal codes, but also the the categories that that brings and inflicts upon [00:58:30] you. That's a bit of a statement, but some sort of feedback to Whitney or something. So that's a statement. It's not so much a question. Hi, I'm and I'm from Auckland. Um, and I work with outline and community Council, um, which is a feminist organisation. And, um, I was just as this is a question for Naomi, Um, you said that in your, [00:59:00] um, UN O magazine, um, publication that a lot of your members actually felt really misrepresented, Um, by by you being the, you know, the the face of of trans women for for that, um, publication. So how did you address those issues? Um, and how will you address those issues? Um, in the future, OK, maybe tiny. Do you want to go now or in the next round? [00:59:30] Diego? OK, my name is I don't need to mind. Uh, I think you very much All my friends, I and I think Tiny has brought up a very important point here that it is not easy. But I think the thing to remember is that activism is alive in those countries and that groups like tiny and sisters in Islam in Malaysia and [01:00:00] a home in Pakistan are fighting against moral codes. And and I think what tiny is questioning is the appropriateness of law and the emphasis on law becoming the default activism tool for LGBTI rights. And I think that it's even in even in our own countries, we face a lot of LGBTI. Groups immediately want to use the law knowing that their country governments will not support them and knowing [01:00:30] that intervening in the law might give you worse, you might be in a worse off place than in a better place. So thanks for reminding us that it's not easy, but I know that there are many, many groups in Islamic countries who are doing incredible work on trans on lesbian issues. And I think we should just as a group acknowledge that. And don't assume that because then Iran or in Iraq there's no work going on. OK, so let's go to the individual [01:01:00] questions first and then some of the common questions. So, Joey, first for you, Um, with the the lesbian question. Um, as I mentioned before, um, we do have, uh, a lesbian members of our, um um of our community of our LGBT, um, community. But, um, there's only about 32 to 3 members that [01:01:30] are out there. I mean, we know who they are. The others that are still in the closet doesn't come out. We know who they are when it comes to the actual, uh, festival week that we have. That's when they really come out and and join. Uh, but there's only three that that have registered in our in our association, and they're the only ones that are out totally out. And, um, but there's no organisation of [01:02:00] their own. Um, I've I've tried so many times for them to to try and form up something, but they just don't have the you know, the guts and and will to to do it because of all our uh, because I think because we're so visible that they feel a bit awkward. And, um, because coming from from a country that is so rich in culture and religion, we cannot, um uh they cannot. They don't have the the the, [01:02:30] um the the willpower to come out as a as a lesbian person. Um, but II I grew up in a in a family that had lesbians and gays. Um, God knows I've got about five uncles that are gay and two aunties that are living in the States now who are living openly as a lesbian. And, um, but it's not an issue in our family, you know, they're all the same because Tonga and [01:03:00] the Pacific and the Polynesian Islands really are are very much family orientated. And it's really, really strong that the the the tie within the families, they are very strong. And I guess that's why we all take care of our patients whenever they have an HIV patient in their families, they all take care of each other. Um, they don't put them away in an isolated place like they claim in the other countries, Um, and for the for the question of the the better to better the community our [01:03:30] relationship with the community. As I have mentioned before, we do strive to to be very involved in our community work, church in our church programmes and everything to be recognised and to be accepted and, um, in in, in, in all the Polynesian islands. Uh, we go as I mean, this is how we dress every day. We don't just come to come to meetings like this in conferences like this and [01:04:00] dress up. No, What you see today is what you see every day in Tonga and in Samoa or wherever, any poli. If there's any other Polynesian islands, this is what you see because we're like I said, it's it's we're really, um, out there. And we try and and and communicate and work with our community every every single time, every single minute of our lives. It has been We have been very much involved in our family, [01:04:30] um dos and everything in our community and, uh, for the missionary, for our criminal code. I think the missionary started with everything like like said, you know, the missionaries came into our, uh I cannot comment on the on the on the criminal code because I'm not a lawyer, but I will comment on what the missionaries brought. They came and dressed us, and then at the end, they came in [01:05:00] and started wearing bikinis, which we are not allowed to. So I don't I'm confused. Who makes up the law and who who starts and doing them. You know what I mean about the magazine? Um, lesbian and gay organising in the Philippines began in the late eighties. Um, gay activist. The early gay groups, um, were doing HIV and AIDS activism while the early lesbian groups, um [01:05:30] were primarily, um, coming out of the feminist movement. Um, at that time, Um, So, um, lesbians are visible in the Philippines, and they're everywhere. But like any movement, they've also experienced, um, peaks and and slumps. So for the longest time from the early nineties and, uh, probably, um, the late nineties there was a TV show that was, um, [01:06:00] written, produced and directed by lesbian women. It was it was called XYZ, but it did it, didn't it? Didn't, um, stay on air for that much. Um, for for very long. Um right. The the first early lesbian groups that, um that were organised in the Philippines included, can't live in the closet. And then some of the members of that organisation broke away. And then they formed their own organisation, which was called, um, lesbian, um, activists, um, lesbian advocates, Philippines, [01:06:30] or and then some members of also broke away and formed their own organisation, like the Rainbow Rights Project, which is composed of mainly lesbian lawyers. And we have a lot of lesbian lawyers who become politicians in my country. Yeah. So, um, right now, there is, um, a revival of lesbian activism in In Manila in particular. Um um is being revived because, um, it sort of died out. Um, but now it's being renamed instead [01:07:00] of lesbian, um, active advocates, Philippines. It's now being called the Lesbian Activism project. So to revive, um, activism among the within the lesbian community. I'm very close to a lot of, um, lesbian women. And they always tell me that if you organise an all female party, thousands go. But when you ask them to come and talk about reproductive health activist stuff, nobody shows up. So I think it's probably [01:07:30] the same in other parts of the world. The magazine question. Oh, yes. Um, the magazine question, um, the trans community in the Philippines, um, faces a diverse range of issues, as you can imagine, because it's a very diverse community. So apart from discrimination, we also face, um um issues. Uh, we also have trans youth. We also have health issues and issues that pertain to ageing. As an organisation, we cannot answer all of these issues and we have to prioritise [01:08:00] and focus on the things that can be done and can and focus that on the on the things that we can can actually do something about. Um, in terms of representation, we have tried our best to be as diverse as as possible. But unfortunately, my organisation attracts mainly trans women in their early twenties to their, um, early thirties. So we have a minority in my organisation of trans, um, ageing trans [01:08:30] women. We actually have two members who are in their sixties, and so, um, we have not been able to develop a programme for their needs and concerns, but, um, we we we keep telling them that you step up and tell, Tell us what you need and tell us what What issues you you you want us to to address. But so far, um, they're also busy with their own with their own lives. And so but in terms of, um, rep, um, representation, we try as much as possible to because [01:09:00] we have a lot of members. So when um, we when we do our campaigns, for example, um, we were involved in A in A an education at um campaign, which required us to visit various colleges and universities in Manila talking about LGBT human rights. We made sure that as many members from strap got the chance to speak in those schools so that the different schools could see that it's [01:09:30] not only one person speaking, it's different people. Quickly. I just answer two questions. One is like, The question is for Indonesian Human Rights Commission. I'm fortunate enough to live in Indonesia, particularly in Surabaya, for a one month at Santa. And then it's interesting, although we have been taught the doubling culture in Indonesia, adapting the American phrases and [01:10:00] others. But still, when we went to the University of Surabaya and we are about presenting the Asian, uh, gender identity and sexual orientation like Asian entities. Uh, a lot of university student uh, may be first time hearing who is warrior. So I personally think like using the local lingo, local language, local identity. [01:10:30] I mean, I use the word and then and then just try to communicate with the student, and it's it went extremely well, and I think, and then not only me bringing down my warrior friend over there to talk about their issue and bringing them, I think that's very well and in particular, like while I work in India. I tend to use the local identity rather using the word transgender, because [01:11:00] people might not understand that. So I think I always focus on the local identity or look, even if you don't have a name. But you have something in your country, but don't go to too, you know, like primitive like biu and all this. So that will be a mixture, although I appreciate his comment, but very quickly, I just also wanted to say that this is not a trans panel. So my presentation was not only on [01:11:30] trans issue, it was on section 277 issues, and I do agree completely agree that possibly section 277 not only for the Trans Woman but in our daily life. It doesn't have a very strong role to put prohibit or to criminalise us rather public nuisance act and indecency act, which violates our rights every day. But I do also acknowledge that section in particular to Indian Scenario section 377. And [01:12:00] this particular thing is given us open us a space to work across the community, be lesbian, be gay, be transgender to come in one particular platform, maybe once once in a year when lawyers collect call for a meeting. But even though it's somehow given India as a nation and building a community which is the Indian sexual minority community, and Gita has excellent paper on it, reproductive [01:12:30] health matter she published, I think that's a kind of opening. And we, the community in India, welcome that initiative. Can I just one last point, Um, because the one thing that I wanted people to take away, um, from my presentation was the fact because this is a Jakarta Principles panel is that the Yogyakarta principles has have not made any impact in my country. It has not, um, because it's probably because as a document, it tends to invisible differences differences [01:13:00] of the understanding of the human rights discourse in different parts of the world, for example, and the differences in the needs of the community that the Jakarta principles, um, prepared to to to serve. But all at the same time, we would like we we we must acknowledge that the Jakarta principles is an achievement of LGBT activism, and you have to make those principles work for you. So, for example, in our case, although there's there has been no impact that YPYP has not made any impact [01:13:30] in the Philippines. Still, it is important that such a document exists because it's the only international document that has a clear definition of sexual orientation and gender identity. And this is very important in making, um, sexual orientation and gender identity. Human rights, Um distinct. Yeah, I. I mean, I think that's a good point in terms of closing, because one is who was there when these principles were being drafted, who was not there whose voice is there, and I think these are questions. [01:14:00] The movements need to ask. The minute we invisible L in the LGBTI, we need to say question and observe and notice that the you know there's a whole group of people that's being excluded. And I think the other one is around meanings and language because even though the you know lesbian may not be an organising category in India, same sex desire exists. Same sex behaviour exists. Same sex love exists. So we should always keep in mind that [01:14:30] there isn't an equal sign between identity and behaviour. And, you know, you could identify as lesbian or gay and you know, so I think there are many people that are that that engage in same sex desire or same sex love. But don't call themselves lesbian, and that's OK. And I think that's the point Marilyn Waring made in the morning that you don't have to be gay or trans or homosexual in that one particular way. And that comes from your own [01:15:00] context. Probably. So, uh, thanks a lot to the panellists. It is exactly 3 30 it's been a it's been great. Let's give them a big hand because we got enough voices in the room, so thank you very much.

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TITLE: Session 1, Yogyakarta Principles Part 1
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VOICES: John Fisher; Susan Glazebrook
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); John Fisher; Susan Glazebrook; Wellington Town Hall; Yogyakarta Principles (2006); human rights
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the Yogyakarta Principles Part 1 session.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi and welcome to this session on the Jakarta principles. My name is Carrell. I'm going to chair this session. Uh, we are going to start in in just a minute. Um but II, I want to just to say something really briefly in in my English English is not my first language. It's not my second language. So, uh, please be patient. Uh, first things is that the [00:00:30] Jakarta principles really need more trans and intersex readers and speakers. And as someone that is both trans and intersex and participating in the writing of the Jakarta principles, I really, uh, want to to meet more trans and intersex people engaging in this in this kind of of presentations. The other issue is that even when people, uh, keep referring to the principles in terms of sexual orientation or gender identity, don't forget that there are other, [00:01:00] um, concepts involved in the in the in the writing of the of the principles such as gender expression and body body diversity which are really important for our communities. Usually when people talk about the yo Jakarta principles and about the human rights framework in general, especially when concerning sexual orientation and gender identity, and it happened today seems to conceive a geo [00:01:30] political reality in terms of human rights where global north countries help and teach global South and global East countries about human rights. And I want to to remind you that some gross human rights violations considered by the Jakarta principles such as sterilisation as a legal requirement, uh, are still, you know, enforced in Europe. So that [00:02:00] kind of geopolitical division is not is not truth and human rights violation based on gender identity and and sexual and gender identity and sexual orientation are having place all around the world, including global north countries. And the last thing that II I want to say is that even when people think about transcending to sex issues at some kind of modern, uh, issues, I'm going to be very Marxist in this in this, uh, approach. Some [00:02:30] countries have money in this world because other countries has no money, and there is a story of colonialism that shouldn't be forgotten. There is not such a thing as a rich country as a country that have money because, you know, it's just a good gift. So, uh, we are going to start with UH John Fisher, who is co director of FARC International from New Zealand, now living in Switzerland. [00:03:00] As Mao has said, I'm originally from New Zealand but have been living away for a long time now. 1st 10 years in Canada and then for the last five years in Geneva, Switzerland, where I do a lot of work on LGBT issues at the United Nations, which presents many opportunities but also many challenges because it's not often a welcoming environment. So for me it's a great pleasure to be home to be back in New Zealand. I feel very privileged to share the podium [00:03:30] with Mao Capra, who was one of the experts who developed the Yogyakarta principles with Justice Susan Glab, who has played a pivotal role in a reference within the region about how the principles can be applied. And she'll talk some more about that And I also want to acknowledge the presence today of others who are involved in the process Boris Dietrich, so many activists who have been involved in applying the principles in their own regions and also the presence of many representatives of national human rights institutions [00:04:00] because I human rights commissions, of course, play a leading role in making human rights a reality, bringing them to the people of countries around the world and around our various regions. And the support that national human rights institutions, particularly in the Asia Pacific region, have played in in promoting and applying the principles has been pivotal. And also I want to particularly recognise Ibu his from the Indonesian Human Rights Commission com ha who has played a leading role both from the very [00:04:30] inception of the Yogyakarta process through to the current day and I'm sure beyond So we're going to look today a little bit about the origins of the Dodd Jakarta principles themselves and particularly how they can be applied by activists in countries and regions around the world. Many of you will have received, I think, in your packs a copy of the Purple Booklet, which is the DOD Jakarta principles and also this colourful guy, which is the activist's guide to the Dood Jaar Principles and about [00:05:00] 20 times the size. Do you have those documents? OK, just the one. OK, we'll try. There ought to be hard copies of these, uh somewhere in the conference centre. Uh, we'll try and track those down with, uh, the organisers and place them on some visible table. Um, however, we'll also during the course of the the presentation, uh, introduce you to a website where you can, uh, fill out an order form and get as many copies as you want of either of these documents. Uh, so quite often we find that people will [00:05:30] come across a copy at a conference like this, but then order 20 5300 to use at other meetings, seminars, trainings that they're doing within their own countries and regions. And there's wild stocks, last free delivery. So you're very welcome to, uh, to order as many copies of these documents as you wish for your own purposes. But let's, uh, let's and I also shouldn't assume anything. How many people are familiar with the the principles themselves. OK, so some but not everybody. So we'll talk. Take [00:06:00] a little bit of a look as well at, uh, at what they are, where they came from. What what it's all about. Um, this is just at the outset, a bit of an overview of the the various groups and others who have been involved in the development, particularly of the activists guide some of the funders who have been involved a large coalition of of international human rights organisations. But the exciting thing about both the Jog Jakarta principles and this activist guide to the principles is that each have been a team [00:06:30] and collective effort involving many people from from countries and regions around the world. Um, the other thing that that we'll see when we look at the actual Activists Guide is just how many different groups from around the world contributed to their own tales of activism to make the guide a reality. In a nutshell. The principles themselves are a legal document on the application of international human rights law to issues of sexual orientation and gender identity. Um, the activists guide is what brings that [00:07:00] legal document to life because it's this guide that that provides stories and examples and case studies of how activists use their own initiative and creativity around the world to make those these legal principles a reality within their own within their own countries and regions. And as Mao has pointed out in the in the introduction, um while the, uh, the principles may have been the the product of a very intensive set of deliberations by human rights experts around the world. It really is, uh, the the activists in countries and regions that [00:07:30] have have given them life. So those are some of the case studies which are profiled in the guide, Uh and you'll see already that, uh, that, uh, organisations from the Asia Pacific region are very well represented within, uh within the guide within Asia. I think we have stories from, uh, from China, a couple of examples from India, from Nepal, from the New Zealand Human Rights Commission and and elsewhere. So it's, uh, I think, from regions across the world. There's been a lot of engagement already with the with the principals. [00:08:00] So first question is, although, uh, we were mainly focused on the activists guides today. The first question is, what are the DOD Jaar principles themselves and to provide a little bit of information about their their origins? In 2006, it was clear that at the United Nations we were continually hearing evidence of violations of human rights experienced by people on the grounds of their sexual orientation and gender identity. in all countries and all regions [00:08:30] of the world. And yet we all know that the United Nations can be a a very bureaucratic institution that is often slow to respond to demands of civil society and in particular has not paid significant attention to issues of sexual orientation and gender identity through the years. That is changing now in recent years, partly because of the DOD Jakarta principles, but partly also because of increasing engagement with activists, human rights institutions and others both with [00:09:00] the United Nations as an institution and bringing those demands to their own governments around the world. But as a result of that gap in international recognition, a number of NGO, S and others working in the field of human rights felt that there was a real need to bring together in one place the core international legal principles as they apply to people who face violations because of our sexual orientation and gender identity and the idea crystallised. When a number [00:09:30] of us were involved in some community meetings in Geneva, our organisation, Arc International, was involved in what we call an international dialogue that brings together activists from regions around the world to talk about engaging with international mechanisms. As part of that international dialogue, we arranged a meeting with the then High Commissioner for Human Rights, Louis A. From From Canada. And she suggested to us that one of the things that would really help her as United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights was to really have a [00:10:00] clear articulation of the legal obligations that states have to protect all people equally, including on the grounds of the sexual orientation or gender identity. Some of the government, some of the states that are still hostile to issues of sexual orientation and gender identity continually and with, uh uh with sort of almost boring repetition will say to us, Well, these issues are nowhere recognised in international human rights law. They don't appear in any international treaty, any international document. Uh, and what we wanted to do was to bring together [00:10:30] leading experts in the field who would do an analysis of international human rights law and demonstrate just how wrong that analysis is. The extent to which existing international human rights standards protect everybody. And there is no exception for people based upon their their sexual orientation or gender identity, a planning group was formed and uh, one of the the leading organisations involved in that process. The International Service for Human Rights was at that time headed by an Australian Christi who has done a lot of work in the Asia Pacific region [00:11:00] and particularly in Indonesia, and worked very closely with Thomas, the Indonesian National Human Rights Commission. And through a series of discussions, it was agreed that Indonesia would be a very suitable venue to bring these experts together and have some understanding of the international legal concepts at stake. Uh, the a draught of the principles was developed and then through a very intensive two or three day process, the group of experts broken to working groups haggled over the text, [00:11:30] uh, and produced the the principles that that you have in your in your packs today. Right now, hopefully most people are from from our region know where Joo Jakarta Indonesia is. I find that when we present on the, um uh, the principles in regions around the world, many people are unfamiliar with, uh with Jakarta and also are are less clear on on how to pronounce the name of the principles I was at a recent meeting with an ambassador from Norway who tried to pronounce the title about three times and then eventually gave up and said, [00:12:00] Couldn't you have called them the Bali principles instead? Um, so we have, uh we have some sympathy with that, but, uh But of course, as I've mentioned, uh uh, George Carter was the the, uh, the birthplace of the principals and and they named after the location where the meeting was held. Here is an overview of all the principles that are covered. And don't worry, given the time constraints, we won't work through all of these. But it's I put up the index just to give you a snapshot of the many different principles that were articulated and developed. Uh, by the experts [00:12:30] at that meeting, I must say I. I mean, we were part of the organising committee, so I attended as a part of the Secretariat. Unlike Mao, I wasn't involved in five minutes, OK, in the actual development of the the text itself. But I have to say I was very impressed by the degree of depth and detail that the participating experts brought to their analysis of the international legal situation as it applies to LGBTI people. Um, we had thought that perhaps we might end up with a you know, a one [00:13:00] page statement of principle which articulates some of the key international principles and obligations of states. But as you will see, in fact, there are 29 principles which cover a whole range of human rights issues from the general framing principles of universal enjoyment of human rights. The right of all people, without exception, to enjoy all the human rights, which is what we call universality, of course, the important principle of non discrimination, important principles on the rights to recognition before the law which has been applied particularly [00:13:30] by transgender people, to ensure that the government recognises their own identity within government documentation, rights to life, security of the person privacy which of course touches on issues of decriminalisation and working through all the rights. Obviously, freedom of expression and assembly are important means by which we organise and seek recognition of our rights. There's also equal attention to many of the economic, social and cultural rights, like the right to non discrimination in education, in housing and [00:14:00] employment in healthcare, the rights to found a family and all of these together make up the Georg Jakarta principles and the standards to which we seek to hold governments accountable. I just excerpted some bits and pieces from the principles to give you a flavour of the the structure and the text itself. It begins with a two page preamble, which we found, actually, uh I mean, as as the clock was ticking on the Dodge Carter meeting, we weren't quite sure that we were going to get to [00:14:30] reach agreement on a preamble because the experts focused on the principles themselves first. So we found the preamble has provided important context and is often cited and relied upon by groups working in this area and those seeking to apply the legal principles. It provides a bit of a link between the legal text and the lived experiences that we all have as members of the LDT I and other communities. So it acknowledges the international standards. It recognises the violence, harassment, discrimination [00:15:00] and other forms of human rights violations that many of us experience talks about. At the end of the second paragraph there the importance of our sense of self worth belonging to our communities. The fact that denial of our human rights leads many of us to conceal or suppress our identities and live lives of fear and invisibility and the obligation of states to then address these it also in the last two paragraphs there has not definitions but formulations that express our understanding of what sexual orientation and gender identity mean. And of course, [00:15:30] entering into debates around things like definitions is always a complex and challenging process. Elsewhere in the guide, it's clear that we don't purport to be exhaustive, but we have found that international agencies struggling to understand and apply these terms have have made use of the definitions to further their understanding and consequently protection of rights based upon sexual orientation, gender identity, uh, just a couple of examples of the structure of the principles [00:16:00] themselves. They all start with a fairly short articulation of the the actual international standard and and principle which governments have agreed to adhere to by virtue of belonging to the international community by virtue of acceding to various international covenants and treaties. Following that, there's the the head of state shall an articulation of the actual actions that are expected of States in order to give effect to to that principle. And it's often in the state's shall section [00:16:30] that we see, you know, a concrete set of actions that are expected of governments in order to comply with their, uh, their international standards. Uh, so the I've given you the first two there on, uh, universality and non-discrimination non-discrimination, of course, includes repeal of criminal provisions, uh, and other provisions that are applied to criminalise consensual, same sex activity. Uh, here's an example from the the right to education just to take another example and you'll see that again. The the principle itself is quite a straightforward one that everyone has the right to education. [00:17:00] It's an internationally recognised right, without discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity and taking into account people sex orientation and gender identity. But then, in the list of obligations to give effect to that right, it deals with a whole range of issues, including inclusive school curricula, protection from bullying and harassment, the need for guidance counsellors to be adequately trained and sensitive to issues of sexual orientation and gender identity, and, in short, to ensure a a an educational environment in which people can can [00:17:30] live and celebrate their sexual orientation and gender identities and all of their diversity. Now Marra was telling me that I only have one minute to go, not even off the the principles and into the guide. So we'll skip through the principles. Hopefully, you get the the idea you will see in the principles themselves that, uh, that there's a list of participating experts at the end, many of whom are from this region. Why the cara principles? Well, as you'll see from from this, the the legal sources were scattered through many different documents. And the goal was to collect it all together into 11 single document [00:18:00] that that brings it all into one place. Uh, that brings us to the activists guide the, uh, the other document, which is really the the application of the principles and what's happened since the DOD Jakarta meeting to bring these to life in, uh, in countries around the world. It's quite a largest document. So these are the four sections into which it's, uh, divided. Uh, Section one gives you a sense of where the principles came from, what they're about. Section two looks more closely at some of the specific rights and what they're about [00:18:30] and how you can, uh, apply and better understand some of the legal principles at stake. Section three The principles in action is actually what I would consider the the core of the document because it's this where we give examples and case studies of how the principles have been been applied through the creativity of groups around the world And the Section four, give some, uh, some different examples of kinds of activities that can be applied. So we'll skip through, I think, the overview and context, because I've been talking already a little bit about the [00:19:00] principles themselves where they came from. Here we see some examples within the UN system of how the principles have been referenced in this case by the current UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, who has acknowledged the DOJ principles as binding principles with which all governments must comply. They've also been cited by the UN special rapporteur on education. So within the UN system, those are a couple of examples and from the UN High Commissioner for Refugees as well in developing policies around refugee and asylum laws [00:19:30] Section two, as I mentioned, looks in more depth at some of the key principles, some of the key thematic issues and some of the issues there. So we've given some examples on the what the Dr JAA principles say on the right to health. So which principles you are most interested in, which sections of the guide you are most interested in will probably depend upon the work of your own organisations. In some cases, people seek to apply the principles as a whole as a complete document that says, Here are all the standards we expect of our governments In other cases, you may be with an [00:20:00] organisation that works specifically on on health rights, on issues of bodily integrity, on sex reassignment surgery on access to adequate healthcare without discrimination, or you may work on education or asylum issues. And in those cases, just going straight to the relevant section of the guide may help provide you with the information and tools you need to apply the Jakarta principles in your work. Oops, So Section three, as I mentioned, is the one where we look at how the principles are applied in a number of different sections Mau is now saying, OK, [00:20:30] put the put the pointer down and, uh, and get off the podium. So all right, so we'll skip through. So his, uh, cases from the India court case decriminalising homosexuality, uh, or and you'll see references to the principles in the court's judgement. There are other examples from South Africa. The New Zealand Human Rights Commission applied them in their trans inquiry. Examples from Ghana applying the principles, Uh, never mind. Um, there's some stuff on Wikipedia which is much shorter than me. Uh, and just take note of this, [00:21:00] uh, address where this is the website where we both give examples of, uh, the uses of the principles and update that with new examples as we learn about them, There's also an order form where you can order copies, Uh, and you can download electronic copies of both the principles and various UN languages English, french, Chinese, Russian, et cetera, Uh, and, uh, and also of the activists guide. So from that website, you can really get all of the, uh, the materials that you might need. Here's a copy of the order form. Uh, and just to note that even [00:21:30] since the Jakarta meeting. Uh, there. We continue to hear every day about creative uses of the principles in in countries around the world. And I think that's what Susan will now talk about is since the production of the guide, some of the additional ways in which, uh uh, various bodies, including national human rights institutions, have looked at and applied the the Jakarta principles, uh, in their ongoing work to ensure equality in justice for us all. Thanks. [00:22:00] Thank you. Joan. Uh, now we are going, um, to hear the the presentation of Justice Susan. Uh um, she's a justice of the Court of Appeal in New Zealand and a member of the advisory council of Jurist. Good morning, everybody. I know we're running short of time. I have done a written paper, So if I skate through this really quickly, I gather these [00:22:30] will be available online. Uh, later. So, uh, the first thing is, uh, probably to explain what the advisory council of Jurors is. And to do that, I have to, um, explain. Uh, what? Uh, the Asia Pacific Forum is which is interesting because I don't seem to have that slide. Uh, well, anyway, the Asia Pacific Forum was founded in 1996. And it's, uh, full members, uh, national human rights institutions. And there are some representatives [00:23:00] here from those institutions that comply with the Paris principles. Uh, Paris principles. Uh uh. Probably the most important one of the Paris principles is that they be independent of government. Uh, and the, um, advisory Council of Jurists, um, is a group of jurists from the Asia Pacific region, and, uh, they come under the umbrella of the Asia Pacific Forum. And what happens [00:23:30] is that they have issues referred to them in the human rights field, Uh, for the Asia Pacific region that the, um a PF, as it's called, uh, wants, uh, expert opinion on now it's head. Uh oh. There we go. This there, you go out of order. I'm I'm in between associates. And, um so you can see that, uh, I can't manage on my own. Uh, so there's been a wide range of these references, [00:24:00] um, since the establishment of the advisory council of in 1998. And they include the death penalty in 2000, trafficking in 2002, terrorism in 2004 and the environment in 2007. And, of course, there have been lots of other, um, very interesting, um, issues that have been referred to us. And the latest reference, uh, with 2010, which is why I'm here was the one on sexual orientation and gender identity just [00:24:30] in terms of the process. Uh, we started off, uh, with the yo yo Jakarta principles in, uh, November 2006, and the Asia Pacific Forum held a workshop in May 2009 to discuss the forum's role in promoting and implementing those principles. And after that workshop, it referred the issue. The whole council referred the issue, uh, to the advisory council of Juris at the 2009 annual meeting, [00:25:00] and you'll understand the significance of that. I think, um, in this region that this, uh, body decided that this was a topic or the next topic, uh, that needed addressing in the region. What happens, uh, is, uh, that a background paper is prepared, uh, by the Asia Pacific Forum Secretariat. And this year it was done with the assistance of the alternative law forum and that deals with the the whole region and all of the issues [00:25:30] in the region the human rights issues in the region. Then the council met in Bali, Uh, at the same time as the forum meeting from, uh in August last year, and we had assistance from experts in the Asia Pacific region, including, um, John and, uh, a number of other people who not sure if there are so I can't see there. I'm afraid it's, uh oh, joy. Sorry, Joy. It's terrible. Terrible light, I'm afraid. Uh, so just [00:26:00] moving to the report that we did, uh, the first part of the report looked at the application of international human rights norms, uh, to those of diverse sexual orientation and gender identity. So that was basically just, uh, re looking at a way and summarising, uh, the principles that have already been collected. Uh, then what we did is respond to the terms of reference, and the terms of reference were looking at how compliant the criminal laws [00:26:30] of the region were with the international human rights standards in this area. Anti discrimination law, uh, whether there is a proper recognition of change of gender identity or choice of gender identity looking at other laws and policies that could be discriminatory. Those ones that are are more subtle in terms of the their usage, not in terms of their effect, but certainly, uh, where people can say, Oh, no. Well, my laws comply, except I use them differently. [00:27:00] Uh, and then the final section was the recommendations, Uh, looking at the recommendations. Uh, what we did, uh, was rather than structuring the recommendations according to the terms of reference, what we structured them, um, in accordance with with the core functions of national human rights institutions. And there was a a cunning plan behind this to a degree, um, in that, uh, it made it clear that this was a role. [00:27:30] This area was a role of national human rights institutions. And also, if any of the institutions, um uh, now or in the future thought they had an excuse not to operate in this area, it was to remind them that this was part of their core function and that even if they didn't, uh, feel immediately able, uh, for whatever reason to, uh, say advocate for the immediate decriminalisation, they could start somewhere. Take a staged [00:28:00] approach to that and then, uh, still actually do a lot for the people that they are responsible for and the human rights that they are responsible for in the in the region. So we structured them according to, um, the core functions of research, education, monitoring and advocacy. And as I say, we took a staged approach so people could start at, uh, the the various levels, but obviously with the aim and with the absolute clear message that the [00:28:30] final aim was to ensure the rights of everybody in the community, including those of diverse sexual orientation and gender identity. So looking at the core recommendations, um, the first one on our stage for approach was to build, uh, capacity within the institutions themselves and to conduct research. Obviously, if the institutions themselves don't know the extent of the problem, the extent of the issues that are faced, then they're not going to be able to be in a position to do anything about it. Neither [00:29:00] are they going to be, uh, listened to in the way that they should be. So that's the the first stage. Obviously, some of the institutions had already gone a long way down that track There'd been an inquiry, for instance, in New Zealand into, um, the experiences of those of diverse, um, gender identity. Uh, and I think there'd been an inquiry in Australia as well, So some of them had already gone a a reasonable way down the track. And obviously there's a lot of research out there that they can, um, build on as well. But the idea [00:29:30] is that they look at it in their particular jurisdiction. The second one was to promote, um, communication, Uh, between those of diverse sexual orientation and gender identity and the wider community. Um, next was to educate key groups. Uh, the first one and perhaps the most important were were those people of, uh, diverse sexual orientation and gender identity themselves as to their rights. Um, as well as, uh, the people that they come into contact with perhaps, uh, Judiciary police, [00:30:00] government officials, uh, teachers and people of that, um kind, uh, the next was, uh, the monitoring role. Obviously, in their, uh, in their role, uh, of monitoring the human rights, um, compliancy, if you like, of their of their jurisdictions, they should monitor that. And then, uh, the advocacy role. Finally, in terms of those principles. So, um, in, um, conclusion, um, the report and the background paper identified many discrepancies [00:30:30] between the human rights norms and the law and policies of the region. In our final report, we don't go so much into detail. Uh, just as examples of, uh, particular jurisdictions. But the background paper, which is also on the website, has a lot more information about individual jurisdictions. We also had a broad range of, uh, recommendations. And as I say, the, um, end aim was to ensure, uh, the human rights, the [00:31:00] full human rights of all without discrimination. So thank you. Thank you very much. Susan, Um, I don't know if we have, um, time for questions now, or if you want just five minutes, OK? City all the time. Like new, right? No, not at all. They're, [00:31:30] uh they're deliberately titled The Jakarta Principles. And the long title is on the application of international human rights law to issues of sexual orientation and gender identity. So the goal was to simply take existing international human rights standards and apply them to questions of sexual orientation and gender identity. And that was the starting point for each of the participating experts. What was kind of inspiring about the meeting is that there were, um, a great diversity of backgrounds and experiences amongst the participating experts. Some had a long history of dealing with issues of sexual orientation [00:32:00] and gender identity. Some had in particular, I think, uh, for example, Lawrence Mute from the Kenyan Human Rights Commission had a generalist human rights background but simply came into the meeting with an open mind and applied that human rights, background and experience to the subject matter, uh, to see what would be the application of international existing standards in this area and, uh, and made many, you know, very positive contributions based upon that those human rights standards to the development of the the principles themselves. Uh, and so that is certainly one of one of the key messages in some cases. For example, as activists, [00:32:30] those of us who are activists may look in here and find some frustration that the principles don't go as far as we might like. Uh, and that's that's deliberate. They're not intended to be aspirational, not in not intended to be a a charter for where we would like to go as a community 20 years from now, They are simply intended to be a reflection of existing standards to, uh, to the violations that we experience. I don't know that there's been research done over and above, uh, what is already existing? Uh, but, um, from [00:33:00] memory, there were was some mention of, um, correctional institutions and some issues with correctional institutions. And certainly, I think some of the more detailed recommendations that we put out related to, uh, related to correctional institutions as well. Um, Which, um, I can't on the Russian paper there. I do put the full recommendations there. And perhaps just to add to that, there is a UN [00:33:30] agency called What's it Called UN O DC, the UN Office of Drugs and Drugs and Crime, uh, which deals with various international standards in relation to criminal matters. And they recently produced a handbook on the needs of prisoners, particularly from marginalised groups and amongst various other sets of prisoners, prisoners with disabilities, et cetera. They had a chapter on, uh, prisoners who are LGBT and drew heavily upon the standards in the Jakarta principles to develop guidelines for appropriate [00:34:00] treatment of LGBTI prisoners. How No I. I understood. I expect that, um that one of the reasons for developing that handbook by the UN agency was precisely because, uh currently the the the application and the the the reality for LGBTI prisoners is falls well short of the standards of treatment that that are appropriate. The challenge in putting together the activist Skype. [00:34:30] Although I must say that there are a whole set of different authors responsible for its its compilation. So there wasn't any one decision made, but the challenge that the various groups involved in putting this together faced was that there were just so many examples of activism using the principles that providing a a sampling or cross section was not intended to be exhaustive, but only, um, illustrative. And even since the guide has been finalised, we constantly hear about news stories we would have loved to include. So one of the things I would have said if if Mao hadn't hadn't made [00:35:00] me stop. Um, was that was that since the, uh, the production of the guide, one of my my very favourite initiatives from Indonesia is a production of a comic based upon the principles in Indonesian by uh, by groups there, Uh, and it's It's just I mean, this version is in Indonesian, but there's also a a version in English, and it's just a wonderful moving story produced entirely at the initiative of this group, where on one side of the page they'll cite one of the Jakarta principles and then through the story that unfolds [00:35:30] in the comic, illustrates the application of those principles to to the lives of a a young woman coming to terms with her lesbianism within a school in Indonesia. And then it moves through the rights to education rights to be free from harassment and bullying, and concludes with the rights to found a family as she she meets somebody that she she loves and eventually is accepted within her family and community. So I actually, you know, cried at the last few pages, and, uh, and that that's that doesn't say much, because I I sort of cry at, uh, Disney movies and things. But it was it's really moving experience, and, [00:36:00] uh, and we've seen lots of other good examples that, uh, that would that could well have been equally reflected in the guide itself in relation to the to the joint statement. A number of us will have heard more about that from Boris and other presenters this morning. We have copies here, by the way, for those who who would still like to engage in lobbying with their governments around the joint statement. It's not based specifically on the Jakarta principles, although it certainly reflects a number of the key points made in the principles themselves. The decision in in preparing the joint statement, [00:36:30] which already I think, is the the largest UN declaration on these issues with the number of signatories that it has, uh, was to focus on specific extreme forms of violations like, uh, freedom from from killing from torture from violence and criminal sanctions principles. We hope that all governments could accept. And of course, those are the amongst the principles at the very forefront of the DOD Jakarta principles themselves as well. So we haven't specifically referenced the DOD principles, but they certainly are a reflection of some of those those issues. Um, and [00:37:00] so if anybody didn't get a copy of that or wants information on how to contact the governments, then please do pick us up after after the decision. And did you want to speak to the the question about the C, or or how how it relates or, well, the the principles themselves are really just collecting, as John said, the, uh, the human rights standards that already exist. So it's not, um, as I understand it in the in the same sort of sense of being a UN convention. Specifically, [00:37:30] um, I suppose there's no reason why one couldn't advocate for a specific UN convention in the same way as the the rights of persons with disabilities. But one, uh, one can say that all of those principles already exist throughout what they but what's happened is they've been collected together in the principle so that people can have it in one place to reference. But it's referenced by reference to a number of different conventions that people will have signed up to and also, [00:38:00] uh, reference back to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and, uh, probably in a number of cases and especially these gross violations of human rights just customary international law and, uh uh and just principles that that apply to everybody, whether people are signed up to those documents or not, is it? Yeah, um, just very short thing. Um, even when the the Jakarta [00:38:30] principles are this collection of of human rights standards and and and they are not how was the word that use aspirational? Ok, uh, there is a lot of of normative imagination in the principles, especially in regard to gender identity issues. If we consider principle three, and and this, uh, obligation of states of fully respect and legally recognised each person's self define gender identity and is not saying men or women this [00:39:00] clearly is is aspirational. It's not true, you know, It's not the human rights standard. Uh, it doesn't exist in in in our world. It could exist in the in the future. It's not saying to be recognised, you know, as a man or a woman is a self defined, uh, gender identity. And we can say the same about protection against, um, corrective surgeries for intersex Children who are in the principle 18. So it's a collection of standards, but at the same time [00:39:30] is a collection of hopes. And and that's perhaps a point worth underlining as well is that as the the parameters for the meeting were being set one of the discussions was should it focus on just sex orientation or sexual orientation and gender identity? And because it was supposed to be a reflection of existing international law, while there is emerging in international and regional and national jurisprudence a fair body of work now on sexual orientation there was very little, uh, on gender identity, which is still, you know, emerging in [00:40:00] terms of, uh, consideration at the national, regional and international levels. Uh, so for the gender identity. But there there was a strong principle decision, and I think the right one to to include both while recognising that in relation to those portions that deal with issues relevant to gender identity, there was even more of a need to take general human rights principles and, uh, and apply the background and expertise of the participants to what we would like those principles to say in relation to the needs and experiences faced by transgender people. Um, I think [00:40:30] we need to to end here. Yeah, OK, thank you very much. Thank you, John. Thank you, Susan. Thank you, all of you. Now I'd like to ask Shay Ronald, who's going to introduce our panel of, um, the national human rights institutions to bring her folks up and come and talk to us. Thank you. And just before I start, I'd really like to acknowledge [00:41:00] the role models in our communities who are still plugging away on all these issues. Especially I'd like to acknowledge joy Marilyn, Susan, uh, John and many others who are here today Thank you for all your work. And I would like to give you a It's because of many of you that we're here, so thank you. So now you have the pleasure of meeting some of our national human rights institution delegates [00:41:30] With the support of the Asia Pacific Forum, we've managed to bring together a group of 11 delegates from the national human rights institutions in our region representing seven national human rights institutions. And we know we're running short on time, so we will be brief. Each of the N HR IS are going to talk to you very briefly about some of the human rights issues for the N HR I in this area. The top three priorities [00:42:00] for the NN HR I and what the N HR I is doing in their country. I will let people introduce themselves. But I'll just let you know. Filippo here is from the Pacific Island Forum Secretariat. He's the human rights advisor there. Next to him is Sandra Below From Triple RT. Um, we have Kate TIBE, who's director of human rights unit at the Australian Human Rights Commission. And we have Professor Doctor Carl [00:42:30] Lake tea from the Malaysian Human Rights Commission. We also have his will from the Indonesian Human Rights Commission. We did have miss me from the Indian Human Rights Commission. He's had to go out and meet the Indian Human Rights High Commission. Um, and he'll be back. Um, and we also have from the Cook Islands. Yes, over there. And, uh, we have someone from the Nepal Human Rights Commission who's joining us later today. [00:43:00] If you haven't already met any of the N HR I delegates from your country, please do introduce yourselves. We really want to make sure there's good connections made here. So it looks like I'm at first. Um, and I will be brief. You've already heard a bit about what the New Zealand Human Rights Commission is doing. Just talking to you a little bit about some of the human rights issues. We have around 2. 4% sexual orientation [00:43:30] complaints made to the Human Rights Commission each year. Those issues that we tend to hear about relate to things like bullying and harassment people being refused service. For example, we had some around people being denied entry to bars because the and which the complainants thought was due to their sexuality. Um, people being refused accommodation, sometimes with landlords asking the complainant their sexuality [00:44:00] or expressing discomfort when they're told they were they were gay and declining tenancy. We've had complaints about people not being able to adopt in New Zealand, which you've already heard about same sex couples not being able to adopt in New Zealand, which you've heard about today. Um, people not being able to get married people not being able to attend school boards with their same sex partner, um, and people having issues in relation to their employment with threats around their sexuality in relation to gender identity. [00:44:30] We have about 1. 6% of complaints each year about gender identity, and a lot of these relate to the use of toilets, um, and, uh, inquiries that comes from both trans people. There are employers and representatives of facilities wanting to know how to accommodate those needs. So I better use this pointer thing. If I can find the pointer thing here, that's just covering [00:45:00] what I've said and you'll see Carl there. Who's our poster boy? We've just undertaken. You might have heard about this. The review of human rights in New Zealand today and in there there's a whole chapter about the rights of sexual and gender minorities. And from that work which involved consulting with the meeting with many people from the GL BT I community in New Zealand. [00:45:30] We have, um, distilled a number of key priorities that the commission thinks are important for us and others, including the government to work on. And I've just highlighted some of those there. The highest priority that we've identified is around legal equality before the law, So completing the legislative steps required for formal legal equality, including rights to found and form a family regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity. [00:46:00] There are other priorities that many of you will be familiar with data collection, so continuing to work with Statistics New Zealand and commencing work with other producers of official statistics to address the need for sexual orientation statistics through the census and Population based surveys. UN reporting addressing human rights in relation to sexual orientation and gender identity and all New Zealand country reports to the UN Human rights treaty bodies and other human rights reports. The rights of trans [00:46:30] people so continuing to improve the human rights of trans people through the implementation of the transgender inquiry recommendations with a particular focus on legal recognition, the rights to education and health, and explicit explicit protection under the Human Rights Act. Children and young people improving the safety of same sex attracted and both sex attracted trans and intersex Children and young people in schools and intersex people. Building understanding about specific human rights issues faced by intersex people [00:47:00] in particular health needs. So what are we doing? You'll see there a number of you be familiar with to be who I am, which is the the trans inquiry that you've already heard about that we've been involved in for a number of years. We have in the Human Rights Commission, a Queer Issues group where members of staff and commissioners meet together to help inform the commission about its work programme in this [00:47:30] area and what it should be doing. We have a number of diverse commissioners and staff, and we have focused on both delivering mainstream work. So integrating into all our human rights workshops, for example, sexual orientation and gender identity as well as focused work, for example, with particular employers with schools, um, in relation to making, you know, we put out now a trends [00:48:00] E newsletter things like that. The trans inquiry is continuing, and there's workshops at this conference focusing on some of the recommendations coming out of that and the implementation of those. And we have an undertaking. The Human Rights Review built again, reestablished in some cases and strengthened relationships with the GL BT I community. And we're looking forward [00:48:30] to working together to progress those recommendations that I've told you about. So I think that's it for me. Here's some resources we have now. Finally, um, on Monday this week got a sexual orientation and gender identity page on the commission website, which, um, we're really pleased about and please go there. If you would like further information, it's got links to things like the yoak Carta principles a [00:49:00] whole lot of resources that are useful in this work. That's me. Thank you. The thank you very much. But just before I, um, begin with my five page slide presentation, I'd just like to also like she acknowledge, Jolene decode for her help and support in bringing the Pacific delegates to the games today and also to acknowledge [00:49:30] one of our long time serving advocates in the Pacific Jolene, and also to acknowledge my colleague and my former boss, really the project manager for the regional rights resource team for also being a part of the games just to outline the presentation. Believe me, it's going to be very short, just basically looking at some of the key issues that Pacific Islanders, in particular the LGBTI and sexual Minorities group face in the Pacific. And I am going to focus on specific non constitutional protection, [00:50:00] the legislation that are discriminatory towards LGBTI and sexual minorities in the Pacific, and also looking at the recommendations from the universal periodic review for countries that have actually reported to the Human Rights Council. How do I do this just before that, Um, in case you need information on any of the present, the slides that I'm going to do or any of the specific legislation, please feel free to send me an email on Filippo M at forum sec dot [00:50:30] org dot FJ. And by way of introduction, um, I'm the human rights person, also at the Forum SEC, an intergovernmental agency serving 16 countries of the Pacific region. I'm not going to include Australia and New Zealand in this presentation, but focusing on other Pacific Island states. Firstly, fundamental rights and freedoms in terms of civil political rights are guaranteed in the Pacific island constitutions, and in some cases, economic, social and cultural rights are guaranteed and are also provided for. Not all countries [00:51:00] in the Pacific actually have provisions for economic, social and cultural rights. The Constitution prohibits discrimination on the grants of sex and gender, but not on the grants of homosexuality, sexual identity or transgender status or sexual orientation. In fact, Fiji had a progressive constitution until it was abrogated in 2006, where it also had a specific provision for sexual orientation. There are no specific guarantees or protection for LGBT in Pacific Island constitution, and this is a worry This has become a worry [00:51:30] because of the constant abuse that LGBT, or sexual minorities in the Pacific face when they report cases of harassment of abuse and even just visiting the police to lodge official complaints. Um, like I said before, sexual orientation was included in Fiji's Constitution, now abrogated. In fact, we're living on a military decrees in terms of legislation that are discriminatory towards, um, sexual minorities in the Pacific. Just some examples of how archaic our [00:52:00] laws are and the need to have um um, legislation change. In fact, some of the countries have gone to the extent where they've amended Marriage Act to include provisions such as that no person shall be permitted to marry another person who is of the same gender as him or herself. And this is common throughout the Pacific region. What is even more worse and far serious are the criminal codes or penal codes and which, for example, in Cook Island, Section 154 and 155 of the Crimes Act of 1969 provides offences of indecency between males [00:52:30] and sodomy and the words they use. They liken it to be ST they are liken it to, um, a buggery or permitting buggery in Kiribati. FSM discrimination The grants of sexual orientation, sexuality or transgender status is not is not unlawful. There have been some progress made, but all in all in a nutshell, a lot of the laws need to change to take into account the rights of sexual minorities in the Pacific. We are probably one of the regions in the world that lacks fundamental [00:53:00] protection, both in legislation and Constitution for the rights of sexual minorities. Kiribati. There are no constitutional legislative prohibitions against discrimination based on a person's gender or sexual orientation. Sex between males is prohibited by the penal code, and the penal code prohibits both Sorry prohibits both buggery and permitting buggery. The penal code prohibits gross act of indecency between males, whether in public or in private. There was some progress made in Fiji a couple of years ago [00:53:30] with a case where we had a Koski case, which was, um, uh decided deliberated on by a New Zealand judge, uh, winter and he actually extended the definition of, um well, he didn't extend the definition, but he, uh, uh placed a lot of emphasis on what is done in private should be considered private as opposed to it being done in public by consenting adults. Um, again Nauru. Homosexual acts are illegal at all ages. The law does not recognise same sex relationships. But in Nauru there's hope. [00:54:00] There's currently moves to actually amend the criminal code to decriminalise homosexuality. Papua New Guinea again is similar to a lot of countries in the Pacific in terms of the region, the sub region and that will be the Melas region where homosexuality is not is deemed to be illegal. The Criminal code in Papua New Guinea, for example, sections 2200 and 10 to 12 retains the offences of sodomy and indecent [00:54:30] dealings between males. Amendments in 2002 altered the language used in these provisions but did not abolish the offences. Homosexual acts illegal Same sex relationships have no legal recognition either in the Republic of Marshall Islands. Under the 2004 revised criminal code, sex crimes, all sex all sex crimes are gender neutral. Homosexual acts between consenting males in private are legal. These accords with the anti discrimination provision of the Constitution, which includes a prohibition on gender based discrimination in Samoa. [00:55:00] There is no specific legislation providing for protection against discrimination on the grants of membership of the group made more vulnerable to HIV AIDS. But there's hope again in Samoa. There's currently a building table in that will be tabled in Parliament, which will take into account the rights of um section minorities, in particular the in Samoa, Um again, as I believe Joey will be sharing later in his presentation. The Polynesian countries are more accepting towards or facilities than they are in Melas countries, [00:55:30] um, again in Solomon Islands and Tonga, basically the same as other Pacific island countries. So far, Nauru and Samoa have tried to make some small progress in terms of amending the legislation to take into account the rights both civil, political, economic, social and cultural rights of sexual minorities. Tuvalu again is the same. Vanuatu has gone a step further. Um, Section 99 of the penal code provides that no person shall commit any [00:56:00] homosexual act with a person of the same sex under 18 years of age. Whether or not that person consents consent. Consensual sex between same sex adults is therefore not criminalised not in the in the in their code, per se. Um, in terms of the work the universal periodic review there has been a lot of, um, recommendations put out by the working group as well in terms of its recommendations on, um decriminalising homosexuality. [00:56:30] For Kiribati, now Ruan and Tonga. The key challenge now is because Tonga is going to be reporting next in 2012 for the next round. What are we going to do with regards to getting them to commit to the recommendations they have accepted in relation to decriminalising homosexuality in their country? And this is in terms of law reform, be it in constitutional reform is so or even in policies or regulations in Thomas. Specifically, not all countries in the Pacific have reported to the Human Rights Council in terms of submitting the universal periodic review. But I can reassure [00:57:00] you that the countries that have actually submitted most of the recommendations have been accepted in terms of decriminalising homosexuality in country. Um, these are the countries that have yet to appear, and they will be appearing in May of this year, and I would encourage you to lobby international um LGBTI organisations to get their countries and to get their representatives to ask questions to these to these governments to commit to decriminalising homosexuality and also just [00:57:30] making sure that privacy is respected for consenting adults. Um, recommendations. I mean, I guess for the Pacific from a human rights perspective, a lot more education and awareness is needed. And also, um, financial and technical support for organisations that, um, Jolene or Roger runs and not just in Tonga and Samoa, but also in Fiji, in Tuvalu, in Kiribati, Marshall Islands, FSM, Palau, et cetera. Um also, if I could get, um, the International Service for Human Rights and [00:58:00] other like minded organisations to please lobby your governments to get the countries that have yet to appear before the Human Rights Council to make a commitment to ensuring the protection and promotion of the rights of LGBT and sexual minorities in the Pacific. Thank you. I'm Sandra Below, from the Pacific Regional Rights Resource Team. I am going to be very, very [00:58:30] fast because my task today is to talk about national and regional human rights protective mechanisms in the Pacific. I can be very fast because we don't have any, so that solves that question right there we do not have any functioning national human rights institutions in the Pacific. The last one was the Fiji Human Rights Commission, which was suspended in 2007 after the 2006 coup. We do have some functioning ombuds offices, but they do not expand into to human rights protection. Um, so [00:59:00] and as Filippo has already demonstrated, we don't have protective legislation in the Pacific either. So we have neither the mechanisms nor the legislation to provide any protection at all to sexual minorities and diverse sexuality. Both the Pacific Islands Forum Secretariat and the Pacific Regional Rights Resource Team are advocating for the development of both national and regional human rights mechanisms in the region. Um, the reason [00:59:30] for that I'm going to skip over those laws. Um, the reason for that is we have three main reasons why we're advocating for both national and regional in terms of national human rights institutions. They face three major challenges. One is having the human and financial resources to run them. The second major constraint is the independence, which is absolutely critical to national human rights institutions in small island states. Populations of 20,000 [01:00:00] interrelationships, family relationships, cultural relationships. Independence is so difficult to attain. The third reason is safety, which is related to independence. It is very difficult for people to stick their neck out in a small Pacific island community and speak out about their rights. They become immediate targets of discrimination, and our colleagues here can speak very clearly about that. [01:00:30] So, and especially when you have a situation like Fiji, where the military and the police act with utter impunity. So we have a very difficult situation in most parts of the Pacific. For that reason, we're really advocating for a regional human rights mechanism some of our major challenges. We're going to hear a lot about this today, so I don't I won't go into detail about that. Changing laws takes many, many years in the Pacific, not just because of attitudes but also just the physical infrastructure of it. Small [01:01:00] civil servants, lack of human resources, financial constraints and so on. Another major issue is funding. We have two major donors in the Pacific AusAID and the New Zealand aid programme. The New Zealand aid programme has cut all funding to gender and human rights related work over the last year, and that leaves a number of us extremely vulnerable because it sends not just a message about funding. It sends a political message as well that human rights and gender are [01:01:30] not important. And Pacific Island governments take the lead from New Zealand and Australia, so that cut in funding has been more than a loss of money for us. It's been a loss of power in some sense, and it has had reverberations across the human rights community in the Pacific. So I want to state that we have a huge to do list in the Pacific. As you can see from Filippos presentation, we don't have protective laws. We don't have protective mechanisms. [01:02:00] So where do we start? We obviously have to focus on nondiscrimination and equality in our legislation. We can do that by using a number of strategies, either through case law as well as working on even violence against women legislation. Some of the side effects of that help to improve our crimes decree our crimes, acts say I've been in Fiji too long. I'm calling calling laws decrees, [01:02:30] um, and also looking at reforming our old very colonial legislation. That's been brought in from the 19 fifties and hasn't been changed. Also lobbying for national and regional human rights mechanisms. So those are our real to do lists. So I said I would keep it short, and I have. Thank you. So, um, [01:03:00] I've been asked to to speak about, um, work that the Australian Human Rights Commission has been involved in around sexual orientation and gender identity, and some quite significant work has been done in Australia over the last five years. Really? Um, and there was there was some important and significant work that needed to be done. One of the greatest challenges in Australia is the fact that we're a federation. So there's eight jurisdiction. I'm sorry. Nine jurisdictions, eight states and territories and in the commonwealth, Um, [01:03:30] the Australian Human Rights Commission that I work for is, um, a commonwealth. Um, it's an independent statutory body, but, um, the Commonwealth body, most of the work that we've done, has been looking at the Commonwealth and Commonwealth laws. Many of our states and territories have been much more progressive in protecting the rights of people of diverse sexual orientation and gender identity. And the Commonwealth had a lot of catching up to do. In 2006, 2007, the commission embarked [01:04:00] on a major piece of work, which was a national inquiry looking at the discrimination experience by same sex couples. Um, we released that report in mid 2007 and by, um in in early 2008, the Commonwealth government announced that they would re amend, um, a significant number over 80 commonwealth laws to remove almost all of the discrimination that was experienced by same sex couples. There's a couple of, [01:04:30] uh, of, um, marked emissions, um, laws that that weren't amended, Um, through that reform process, um, the most significant of those being the, uh, the the Australian Marriage Act, which I'll come to in a minute. Um, so that was a really significant piece of work which led to, and the recommendations of that inquiry were implemented really quickly, which is, you know, um a a really, um, you know, really exciting thing for our commission to have been involved in in 2009, [01:05:00] we did a piece of work which led to a report called Sex Files. It was about, um, Trans people in Australia and the legal recognition of sex, um, in government records and official, um, documents and processes for changing sex on those records, um, the the the recommendations of that report are yet to be implemented, and there's a lot of work to be done in that area. And one of the greatest challenges in that area is the fact that Australia Australia is a federation and the birth births, [01:05:30] deaths and marriage registries. And in fact, many of the laws that affect trans people in Australia are controlled by the states and territories. And so it's very difficult for the Commonwealth to progress reform in in that particular area. Although the Commonwealth government has recently indicated that they will take on the recommendations of that report and see what they can do to implement them currently, the commission's or we're we're just about to produce a report of a consultation we've been conducting over the last six months. Looking at, um, discriminate, [01:06:00] um, anti discrimination protections. So in most of our states and territories, there's some level of protection from discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity. It's a source of shame that there's no protection or almost no protection. There's very couple of small pockets in our federal laws. And so the commission's been working on consultation around anti discrimination protections with the aim of encouraging the government to make good its commitment to address this area and introduce [01:06:30] federal anti discrimination protections. So we're hoping that that will happen over the next 12 or 18 months. So the priorities for the commission, I think, in the order in which we expect reform to happen. We're working most closely on the anti discrimination protections at the moment and hope that that will happen immediately. We're very pleased that there's ongoing work looking at the rights of Trans people. But I think those reforms are going to be difficult to achieve and there's a lot more work to be done in that area. [01:07:00] And I think, um, you know, one of the greatest challenges for Australia and one of the areas that you know that we would very much like to see change. But it's gonna be, um um hopefully not too much of a long-term process, but is about relationship recognition and and same sex marriage. There's been a S, Um, there's been a really significant, um, move A kind of momentum gained, I suppose, in the civil society campaign campaign around same sex marriage in Australia over the last 6 to 12 months. And, [01:07:30] um, we seeing discussion of it in our parliament and amongst our politicians, um, you know, at a level that we haven't, you know, that we've never seen before. And so there is momentum for change. There's significant resistance amongst pop pockets of the Australian Parliament and the Australian community to that change. Um, but, you know, that's a longer term goal for the commission and for our country. Thank you. Mhm. Thank you very [01:08:00] much. Good afternoon. I'm calling from the Malaysian Human Rights Commission or known more commonly by its acronym Suha. I'm here to report on what Suaram has done thus far for the rights of LGBT. I'd like to refer back to a statement made by my chairman, uh, in August 2 010 at the Advisory Council of Jurist meeting, held concurrently with the first annual meeting of the A FP. [01:08:30] Uh, where my chairman shared the experience of Suha, uh, pretty short experience. Uh, he related how a memorandum had been received by Suha in UM 2010 on the discrimination by the media towards the LGBT Group and the chairman stated it was important to respect the religious and cultural sensitivities of [01:09:00] Malaysia while promoting the rights of LGBT and notwithstanding the cultural and religious sensitivities. The chairman did indicate that the new commissioners, who were appointed in June 2 010, would study the matters to promote greater understanding in the community of the problems faced by the LGBT groups and stress on the role of the media in this particular regard. And since then, since the statement by the chairman, [01:09:30] Suha has actually been engaged in reaching out to the various groups and I'm leading that particular working group on the rights of LGBT and when the question of what constitutes religious and cultural sensitive, I felt that perhaps we should actually look into the religious and cultural sensitivities first from the religious groups, mainly the Muslim groups, the Buddhist groups, the [01:10:00] Christian, the Hindus and ascertain from them the stand of the religions insofar as the LGBT are concerned and then progress there to look at the things that can do to promote the rights or the human rights of the LGBT group. The understanding of Suha come in this respect notwithstanding, the religious and cultural sensitivities is the at [01:10:30] the very minimum. The human rights of these groups should be respected. Regardless of how we want to advance the growth of the LGBT S, their basic human rights should be recognised. So that is the current position of a Suha as far as LGBT S are concerned now, this is to be contrasted with the position taken by Suaram by the 2009 at one meeting on the NHS on how to advance the Jakarta [01:11:00] principles by the national human rights institutions where the stand of the commission was. As far as LGBT groups are concerned, there is actually no discrimination. And I was reminded this morning by Jay, I think on this particular point the role played by Malaysia in the subsequent statement released at the meeting, and that the Constitution does not discriminate against the LGBT groups. Article [01:11:30] eight of our Federal Constitution, much as what we have heard from the Pacific Islands on how all persons are equal before the law and there's no discrimination amongst other things on grounds of gender. But since then we so has actually received the opinion of the attorney general's chambers. That gender here only refers to male and female, and there is no discrimination on that ground. And [01:12:00] therefore the conclusion is there is no Article eight does not provide the same kind of right of equality to persons of the sexual minorities we have met so far. Three groups, as I've mentioned earlier in September, we met with the Muslim groups and confirmed with them that there are various acts which are against the Islamic law, such [01:12:30] as same sex intercourse, same sex change, cross dressing imitation of the opposite gender. These are all prohibited in Islam, and that is as far as the religious point of view is concerned. But if we look at the legislation and Islam is in Malaysia is a state matter. So each state has its own Islamic law enactment. We have the enactment that actually criminalises most of these activities as well, so it's not [01:13:00] just from the religious point of view. It is also from the legal point of view that these activities are prohibited as far as the Hindus and the Buddhist groups. We have only Christian groups. The basic thing is in Hinduism, there is actually no discrimination against or no prohibition against. The activities of LGBT and the Christian group proceeds on the basis that because of [01:13:30] the love of human beings, therefore, human beings encompasses the LGBT groups and by that analogy, the LGBT groups are actually not. Activities of the LGBT groups are not prohibited. According to the Christian groups. We also met with the LGBT groups and ascertain from them the problems that they face in terms of access to healthcare in terms of employment in [01:14:00] terms of the discrimination against them in institutions of high are learning in terms of discrimination or activities and acts of violence by enforcement officers against them. And of course the other group that also discriminate against them is the media which I have already mentioned. The LGBT group also face the problems of identification in terms of their access to public toilets [01:14:30] in terms of having their gender in cases of sex change reflected in the identity cards which we are all we all Malaysians all have to carry. That's part of our identity and that states our agenda as well, so they face problems when it comes to immigration or employment or obtaining insurance or even housing loans because of the discrepancy in the documentation and their actual physical appearance. [01:15:00] So we have looked into the various issues, so the question now of course, is where will Suha go from here? Having met with the three groups, I think we are still in the process of ascertaining the religious and cultural sensitivities we haven't completed. With that, we foresee that we will probably be looking into the legislation and looking into how Malaysia may [01:15:30] have to comply with human rights principles according to the conventions which it has signed. And how do we sort of align the rights of LGBT within the right the treaty obligations that Malaysia has undertaken? I'm glad to inform for whatever is worth that. Yesterday I was told by the attorney General's chambers that the training institution for the judicial and legal officers will be doing [01:16:00] a course sometime in June for the position, the treatment, the rights of the intersex group. I think there's more sympathy for this intersex because I suppose biologically they're born with sex organs that reflect both gender. There is slightly more sympathy for this group than other groups, And the attorney general's chambers [01:16:30] felt that it was essential to actually spread the awareness of the problems faced by this group and the legal rights of this group. So maybe that is a start. It's a small start, but it is something that Suha looks forward to actually try and promote the rights of the LGBT group. A small start. But we are here to actually learn. How do we promote the rights of LGBT in a country where religious and [01:17:00] cultural sensitivities seem to be more in the fore than anything else? Thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much. And can I ask you to thank once again all our speakers? There will be more time this afternoon to carry on our discussion. But if we want lunch, we need to go now. So thank you very much.

IRN: 323
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_ilott_theatre_session_4.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004135
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089429
TITLE: Session 4, Disability
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Huhana Hickey; Ivan Yeo; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Philip Patston; Shae Ronald
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Huhana Hickey; Ivan Yeo; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Nicola Owen; Philip Patston; Shae Ronald; Wellington Town Hall; Yogyakarta Principles (2006); disability; human rights
DATE: 17 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the Disability session.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm Shay Ronald from the Human Rights Commission and warm welcome to you today. Thank you for joining our session. This is Nicola Owen from the Auckland Disability Law, and you'll see our fine panel members there who will take turns to introduce themselves. Now we want to keep this session quite informal, and I've checked with all the panel members and we want to make sure that you feel [00:00:30] you can ask anything of them. They've given their time today to be here as a panel of people who are GL BT. I queer whatever Gender variant, whatever, um, definition and identification they give themselves and also experience a disability. It's a rare opportunity to be able to engage with people [00:01:00] who are living and walking in both these worlds. Maybe walking is not appropriate moving in both these worlds. Oh, damn! Already stuffed up. Um, So what we'll do is ask them some questions that they will take turns answering, and then the floor is open and Nicola will be walking around at some point and collecting on piece of paper questions. If you don't feel you can ask them directly. [00:01:30] Otherwise, I think there's a roving mic that will be able to move around. Great two roving mics. That's fantastic. So please feel free. This is your opportunity to have a good conversation. Let's go for it. So first up is Philip and Philip. I just wanted to ask you if you could introduce yourself with a sentence or two, only a sentence or two to describe who you are. So can [00:02:00] I use the No pauses? And then there's some questions I'd just like you to focus on. And the first is about the most important thing you think that people should understand about you. One thing you particularly like about your identity, the one thing you would change about society if you could. And one thing the G LBTT I community could do better to be more inclusive. No, [00:02:30] you can have a few more sentences for that, Um, as on Philip. And when we we did this sort of talking that I think would go on that the white middle class male went first. But, you know, Hey, it's very liberal these days, isn't it? And that probably is. The most interesting thing about my identity [00:03:00] is that I am a white man and I'm gay and disabled. And so where does that put me? In the, you know, power, political spectrum. And so that got me thinking about diversity in a very different way. And a lot of my work is, um, about redefining diversity and re [00:03:30] imagining the way we we think and and sort of, um, I I just manifest diversity in society. So that's kind of what I like about my identity is that, um I don't see myself fitting labelled, um, I wake up every morning and decide that, um, I'm going to have a unique experience [00:04:00] based on my unique function and I for the day as to what? That will, um what That will well bring up for me. So I think that's what I would like to change about Society is our understanding that we're not just a list of labels [00:04:30] describing characteristics categorising ourselves and then trying to represent ourselves equally that actually we are common and we are unique. And wherever we are, whatever we're doing, whoever we are with, we can explore. How are we common and [00:05:00] how we unique. And I believe the world would change if we had more of those conversations. So, um, I can I leave it there? Because it feels like, kind of answered most of the questions of Thank you. Um, we always [00:05:30] have this conversation Philip and I about who can beat the minority status. And, um, I win just by one margin. And that's being Maori, um, and aboriginally as well. So I'm actually able to claim two minority statuses. And, uh So what do I like about my identity? I love I love who I am because I define who I am. I don't let society do that to me anymore. Maybe it's an age thing, I don't know, but, uh, I used to always be worried about what other people thought, Um, being raised a strict Catholic. I was always guilty [00:06:00] with everything I did. But these days I define who I am, and I love who I am. My disability is not a tragedy. It's not something sad. It's actually a part of my political power point sometimes or who I I am as a woman as part of that or me being is a part of that or identifying I don't identify as disabled. I'm not. Society is a thing that is disabled, not me. Attitudes are the things that are disabled, not me. It is, um, I. I identify, as which [00:06:30] simply means someone who is uniquely diverse, very similar to what Philip says, but slightly different because it's Maori, Um, and the talks about the breath and it's the breath of life. But it's more than that. It's actually the, um it's the essence of our experiences of our environment around us. I am that product good or bad. You know what's and all this is who I am and people can take me or leave me for that. I it within my own life every day. Um, I guess what's most important is that the next question or am I [00:07:00] moving on already? Or do I just introduce Ivan first or let Ivan introduce himself? Yeah. No, if you can talk about the most important thing you think people should understand about you, I also have age related memory loss. Now it it's normal. Um, you know my back, I. I do, uh, work with Auckland Disability Law as one of the solicitors. And, um, also, uh, I work on the Human Rights Review Tribunal. I'm also a panel member and a governance, uh, member on several [00:07:30] other committees. Um, what's the most important thing that I think people should understand about me? Don't ever categorise or label me because I have a chair that's quite strong and powerful, And I can accidentally, without any men's rare, which means, without intent, accidentally have an actress raus, which is an act to run you over. So, you know, it could be dangerous. I have a dog. He's not dangerous either. He's a but I can always pretend that he can attack. So, [00:08:00] you know, no, Um, in all seriousness, though, don't label me, OK? One thing I absolutely hate is being labelled that woman who's bound to a wheelchair. You know, I'm not into the B DS M. If I was, it wouldn't be a problem. But I'm not. So you know, I'd rather just be labelled one label or doctor who, because that is my nickname. I only got my doctorate so I could be called doctor who, but, um, and it's true. I did, um, but, you know, I did, um but, you know, don't people ask [00:08:30] me who I am and how I want to be identified. Don't assume an identity on me. I am as as as anyone in this room. OK, I'm no more or less. I have a sexual identity. Allow me to be sexually identifying. Don't put me in the asexuals category. I might be old. I might not be having sex anymore. Who knows? So you have to ask the wife that one. But, um, you know, and she's not gonna tell. It's a no tell policy, but, uh, you know, it's it's really true [00:09:00] that we want to be as part of the community, and that's important as our inclusion. Change the attitudes around yourselves and those around you, and what you'll find is you'll find a community that's more inclusive. And I just asked for us to be included as much, if not more. Thank you. Didn't really know what to say after hearing what they say. Um, my name is Ivan, and, um, I am originally [00:09:30] from Malaysia, Malaysian, Chinese, and, um, I came from Auckland this morning. Uh, and why I'm sitting on this panel is not because I'm Asian, you know, Asian is not a disability. This is a colour. The reason why I'm sitting here is because III I experience mental illness. And so that is one of the category. I think people kind of quite often forgotten about [00:10:00] it. Um, and what do I like about my identity? I think it's quite handy because I like to introduce myself as a gay, crazy Asian, Um, which is again, in itself, quite unique. Um, and the beauty, the beauty of it is, you know, like, if the community needs someone who's gay, and then I can go and do some work with them and the community want someone who's Asian and then, you know, like I can doing some work with them again and [00:10:30] it's the community want someone who has experiment I Then again, it's me, you know? So I always in all different. In the end, I didn't get to eat any of them. Um, So what? One of the things people should understand about me is, um, I. I think we all can identify, uh, it a struggle when you have to come out and tell people that you are gay. And just lately, uh, one of my colleague, uh, [00:11:00] write a book about him, um, as a gay man, um, decided to come out second time about his own experience of bipolar. Um, and I think that is true. Um, and from my experience, um, I think many of other people can relate to probably I making assumptions. Um, And for that reason, sometimes it's not necessarily that you have to tell people, you know, [00:11:30] like I have this experience, but on the other hand, it can be quite tough, especially when you have a very bubbly personality and people just assuming that you can take everything as who you are. But actually, I am a very fragile and sensitive flower. He is, He is. So it's a joke. But on on a on a stronger, not stronger on a more serious, uh, what I really [00:12:00] like the society to change. Just this morning I came in and the taxi drivers start having a conversation with me. And then he was talking about his Children and then he asking me, you know, like so you married? I say, Yeah. And then he also said that. So are you going to have a kid? I was just thinking, you know, like, when is when is the time going to be easy? We don't have to say. Actually, my partner is a man, so being pregnant might be a tricky issue to one of us. Um, you [00:12:30] know, but that that's reality. That's what I'm hoping for. One day we don't have to define or even just can see, beyond our colours, our sexual identity, our able disabled body. But just acknowledge that we are first and foremost human first, and we just want the same thing. To be loved, to be accepted and to be part of the wider community and society. Where's where's where's my [00:13:00] hello? Not like we competitive. So I think we'll just open up, um, to any questions at this point. Has anyone got any questions they'd like to ask of the panel? Anything I was told. Nothing is off limits. Apart from knowing if Phillips a top or a bottom, that's the [00:13:30] only thing you cannot ask. It limits it and this. Oh, Nicholas's got a piece of paper and a pen, so feel free to write any questions down. This is when we have a musical interlude so that I could tell a story last night, which was quite interesting. It's not really disability related, but I think it does. Um, [00:14:00] the begin our conversation of change in our community. I went to, um, a bar where Thorn and others were playing. Who was the new one there? Yeah. So the woman phone me then and I was invited by a woman, the woman who was been seeing. And, um, when we got there, we were told we couldn't [00:14:30] come in because we were men. And, um, I sort of played with it and said, Well, but how do you know? I said we might be transitioning, You know, I'm Andy and, um, and you know, and And we joked and we played with that and discussed Well, how would you know? And and and the woman on the door said, Well, I just [00:15:00] will be making an assumption. And, you know, if if I even if you did insist that you were, um, transitioning. And, um So we sat outside, um, which was ok. And and the drinks were brought out to us, which was moon night and and slowly a group of women began [00:15:30] sitting with us. And when by the end of the night, there was probably about eight or nine of us sitting outside, um, the venue. And what we realised was that that group of PE people were, um, myself being disabled or uniquely functioning. Um, my boyfriend, who's a A parent, [00:16:00] Um, and a couple of other women who are both parents. Um, a woman doing a PhD on something about how we are online and and sort of we spent through 45 minutes. Um um, you know, discussing the the the weirdness of of Of And, um, you know, the uniqueness [00:16:30] of of Emily, um, study. And it was just interesting because we were, like, the fringe of the fringe. And and it sort of brings up to for me is what is the conversation that we need to have in our community about where we are now [00:17:00] compared to where we come from and and do we need to say, this is women's on women only. And men can't come. Or is there a new space of Well, this is a woman's event, and, um, you you have to be invited by a woman. You know, if you're a man or something like that, I don't know, but I thought [00:17:30] I would tell the story to fill the gap because I was feeling terribly uncomfortable, I, I guess you know, for me that that resonates because being there's a sense of inclusion a lot more in a lot of areas, you know, uh, is a word of inclusion as well. You know, I So and I we get on really well with with our with our our our men, our women, um, and those who are transitioning don't [00:18:00] really you know, it. It's not a it's not an issue. Um, and I I thought about it, and I'm probably gonna get ostracised. But I remember when the lesbian elders village first came out, I had an issue around. Well, access. Um, but the other issue there was. Well, what if my son wanted to come and visit? Or my sons? What if I had grandsons? What if I wanted to have my men friends around in my life? Are they going to be ostracised because they're mean? If I want them to stay over the fact that I have a close relationship with a lot of men in my life, Does that mean [00:18:30] that I'm less a lesbian? You know, I don't know. And and I, I would have to say I resonate with Philip because I don't understand. I mean, I used to see the value of it, but I don't I don't know if it exists or should exist anymore. When we go to to events, I can't get to the events because, um, if they're too far away because the buses are cheap, but they're not accessible. But, um, when my mate went to the last one, she found it really fantastic because it was, you know, the men and the women. The men looked after her. The queens looked after her. [00:19:00] They looked after her beautifully. And I'd have to say that there was no, um, thing there I, I guess from what the feedback was around around gender as such, it was men and women either celebrating that they were as a community. And I'm not so sure that the G LBTT i community and I mean you get it with that word with the with the an Aron in itself has actually understood that yet. And I don't know if we're really there as a community. But maybe we need to ask the question because I want more inclusion. I don't like the female. [00:19:30] Only because I like to go out, like with my mate Philip. If I can't take him to where I like to go and if I can't take Ivan, well, then I'm really stuffed, aren't I? Because, you know, if I can't take my mates, who can I take? And where can I go where I feel? Welcome. I go to the gay bars because I'm more welcome there with the men than I'm actually welcome with the woman. If I'm to bring my men friends Mm. Thanks for that. [00:20:00] I and I just wondered if I could ask you something. Um, we heard yesterday. And some of us already were aware that the in 1973 the, um, homosexuality was removed from the DS M four in relation to diagnosis of mental illness. And I wondered if you could talk to us a little bit about, um, what we could be doing to support queer people who experience mental health issues. I. I think the first thing is, we really need to talk about it because according [00:20:30] to the statistics, there's a lot of people who I mean, like in our community, are most likely to either have drugs or alcohol issue and committing suicide. Um, and I mean talk about not in terms of talking about, um, issue of suicide, but talking about from a more inclusive, um, environment. Um, there's there's there's things that I realised that I often met new [00:21:00] friends who's gay or lesbian. But in in some stage of the conversations, someone would somehow mention about, you know, the experiment, illness or or taking certain medications. Um, I mean, of course, we don't want to assume that that is what everybody is experiencing. However, if we don't normalise, not minimising, normalise the situations. If we don't [00:21:30] acknowledge that to our own peer, it is tough when you're being educated in a men's society, how you should be, behave, how you should walk or talk. And it's tough to find a place where you can come to a place where you know who you are as a person, and that knowledge need to pass on to our future generations. That kind of message need to be [00:22:00] conveyed to people because of not about the sexual orientation is life can be much easier to anyone else, um, and and the discussions should not just in our community. It should go out wider community. And I believe until that happened, then we can see younger generations who came [00:22:30] through and realise who they are is going to have much easier time. Um, so they look what I see. Thanks, Ivan. We've got some questions just to point on, um, DS M. Um, first off, it's not completely gone. Um, in the, um, edition, following the 1972 73 action, uh, DS M replaced, um, the section on homosexuality with a diagnosis of [00:23:00] ego on homosexuality, um, which was about people who were unhappy about being gay when they were challenged about that and said, Why isn't their ego dystonic heterosexuality? The answer was that if anyone was unhappy about about being straight, that was psychotic. So they had that one, and it's still there. And, um, sexual disorder not otherwise specified. And that's about working with people who are having difficulty with coming to terms with sexual orientation. [00:23:30] So that's still present in DS M four. And I expect it will be there in DS M five. When it comes out. God only knows when that will be, but we still I mean, there was an argument yesterday about removing DS M. I think that's a great idea, but unfortunately, all our funding is based on it in the United States. Of course, with third party insurers purchase treatment options, they base it on DS M. So we need something else. [00:24:00] It is Indeed it is the best money maker on the planet. The American Psychiatric Association, uh, puts out new additions every few years, and every, uh, desk in the world, Uh, and mental health has to have a new copy. And at about 100 and 30 100 and $50 a copy. They're making a little bundle, but yeah, Um, aside from that, I and I've got a question for you. I've worked in acute mental health now for about 18 years, [00:24:30] and in my experience, well, certainly in the unit I've worked in, there hasn't been a single week where we haven't had, um a person in our unit who isn't experiencing some kind of blood fab issue. So the whole gay, lesbian, intersex transgender, um, and bisexual, and so the whole sexual, um, uh, issue range is presented every week, [00:25:00] and I'm wondering you as as a consumer. How What kind of challenges would you put to the mental health services in improving service delivery to same sex oriented consumers? I, I mean I mean, it's a very big job, isn't it? Because I only one person. So spare me, please. Sorry. Sorry. II. I don't know whether you are aware of currently. Um, are you from Auckland or [00:25:30] No, I'm sorry. Ok, sorry. No, don't be sorry. As long as like a joke. Sorry. I'm very sorry. Um, currently in Auckland. Uh, there's a new project that being developed, uh, which is, uh, run by outline. Um, anyone from our Yeah, you're aware of that day. So that is the first steps. I mean, like, I. I really can't speak. [00:26:00] Um, that that's another thing. You know, when it comes to the term consumer. I mean, I never really used the mental health services as such. I only use my body GP who give me a bloody good pill and a bloody happy I said I. I can't really, you know, like, say much And and I really felt that I'm inadequate to answer those questions. But I, I can only say that it is only now because of the discussions from [00:26:30] the Rainbow Conference happened, Um, last year, was it? Yeah. And then people start talking about we need to improve the services and really thinking about how we can raise more, um, profile about, you know, like how the mainstream mental health systems can be more efficiently address those issues, however, because I am the consumer and not too many crazy [00:27:00] consumer and gay. So they've been asking me to join the online project as part of the group. So I am just being invited, and I accepted that. So if you want to have a discussion with me after that and then even you're not from Auckland, but it will be very, very good to have that kind of connections and even, you know that we can exchange information. How does that sound? That sounds very cool. Thank you. All right, next question. [00:27:30] Oh, man and sideline organisation. Thank you. The issue that you raise it is the next step or the next place, and and I'm thinking it's outside of all kinds of construction. So it's not just the binary gender like, where do we go next? And are we going to accept society's definitions of health [00:28:00] and that there's something wrong with this or or as you did in that that place. That's beyond all that where we really start thinking creatively about where we want to go as humans. And maybe we get to a place that we're starting to think about, of us as people and looking at our spirit and our heart rather than those things that divide and separate us. Of course, we've still got to look at those other issues, but I I'm saddened that sometimes our community, um, [00:28:30] is actually more bigoted and separating those within us that don't belong to the dominant narrative. So thank you for raising that. And I, I always think in terms of you know what, what set and what limits And and of course, everything does both. And so, you know, I was saying that night I had the deepest [00:29:00] speech for, um, the fact that, um, sometimes you need to be in a space which you feel safe and and and you're not going to be invaded by somebody that represents something that's not safe. And, um and so it's, uh it's the dialectic. The paradox that that we live [00:29:30] and that that everything is. And this is and, you know, um but but within that, we need to keep talking. And and I think what happens is that instead of seeing a a community like this is just a place of conversation and inspiration, [00:30:00] and we sort of come to this point where we go, right? That I don't know, man. Um, you know, that's the answer. That's how it's going to be. And then suddenly the the conversation stops because we found the answer. And then five years later, or 10 years later, suddenly we realised [00:30:30] this is not working anymore. And then it's a big upheaval to begin the conversation again and and, you know, and what are we gonna do with the last conversation? And so if we can be more aware that the talking has to go on on on on, never stop and be contradictory and confusing [00:31:00] and and and uncertain and uncomfortable, um, I think we would. It will be harder and easier for us to to keep evolving and and developing who who we are. Thanks, Philip, I think. Was there a question at the back there? Yeah, um, thanks. I didn't hear the presentation. I'm [00:31:30] sorry I was attending to my parenting responsibilities, but I did want to acknowledge the conversation that's been raised because I think it's a really important one about how we continue to have conversations amongst each other about, um, places and spaces. And I know that, you know, when I when I saw the conference programme and I saw a you know, women's party and a men's party and then a mix party and I thought, What the fuck does that mean? You know, I respect, you know, I, I love [00:32:00] the conference. I pay my respects to the organisers. You know, this is not a criticism as such, but just, I guess joining this conversation about what are our shared places and and, you know, I, I think for me. And this would be true, I'm sure for many here, you know, my, um, I think for me it's about allowing ourselves to grow in our communities, and and it's about sustainability in terms of our health and our well being. And I say that because in my earlier life, women's only space was absolutely [00:32:30] vital and critical to me and I'm sure it remains so for many women. Um, but over the course of my life, much has changed, you know, And in that change, I've changed. So, you know, I stopped identifying as a lesbian when when my partner transitioned, I no longer felt that that was an appropriate label for me, you know? Then you know, and so on and so forth, you know, and I had Children, and the spaces became less accessible for those reasons. And you know, all of those sorts of things. So I think for me, [00:33:00] I would like us to keep seeking places that feel like we can have those conversations. Because what I observe in my own life is that I'm choosing to be with people who want to have those conversations with me. Um, we don't have. And I loved your point about ready answers. You know, I don't want to be at a place where it's all sorted, you know, I want to be at a place where it is unclear, and we are still trying to work it out. And we can talk with each other about what feels right and what doesn't you know and and have those [00:33:30] difficult conversations. And for me, that's when I feel energised within my community is when I can be talking with the people I I love and care about. And some I don't about, uh, how we are together. So thank you, all of you for for raising the conversation. And I hope that, um it is something we can keep talking about because for me, that's the community. I want to be in Kilda. Can I, um Can I just, you know, ask a challenge? I guess [00:34:00] in a way, as I, I know what you mean about women's space being vital. It was for me when I when I was going through stuff myself. And then I ended up having a son and I was at university, and it was a woman's only space. And he turned six. And heaven forbid that I took him in there, and yet it was the only place that was comfortable that I could get into. Although it wasn't accessible for disabled women, so they were excluded anyway. Um, and at that time, I was on my six. And, um you know, over the years, [00:34:30] I began to realise how stupid all of this was yes, it's important. We have safe spaces. But you know, there are men out there that need safe spaces, too. It wasn't a gender thing, and I discovered that there were, um, men and women out there that were equally hurting in many ways that needed ears of a person with whatever gender they were. And it wasn't so much being with other women because I suddenly had to find myself in other spaces. And it became hugely O eye opening for me because as my son [00:35:00] was growing, um, and his needs grew and he became a teenager who was coming out himself as a young gay man who was going through mental health issues had to go through youth mental health again, another space I had to suddenly come to terms with. And as you I guess, as you grow, your spaces change. And you know, for me, the gender of the person became less vital as to who I felt safe with. It was the person the person first, it didn't matter that they were either disabled that term. I hate and, [00:35:30] um because it implies the opposite of ability, and that is certainly not what any of us here have. And, um, you know, or whether you were a woman or a man old or young, whether you were transitioning or not, it didn't matter at all to me what your belief systems were Except fundamentalist Christians. I think I had drew the line at, um, I. I was known for having open fights with destiny Church people on campus. Um, but that was only because they harassed me first. Um, yeah, yeah, they Yeah, I still [00:36:00] said I loved them, but I just didn't like the belief system. Um, but, you know, there was all those things, but the challenge here today is we're sitting here because we can, but where is the conversation with our deaf queer community? G LBTT I community. I don't know what to call, but with our deaf community who identifies as being part of our Where are they? They are actually not small in number. We know quite a few in Auckland. They have them here in Wellington. Where are they? And where is their language? [00:36:30] Where is it? Here. You know, the the problem we've got is we're saying that we're opening the door up that we're in a oppressed community. But then we turn around and we inadvertently start oppressing others, you know, and And it might be fun to say, Yeah, I'm Maori. I'm disabled. I'm I'm, uh I'm you know, I'm a parent. All those labels, but at the same time, there's still an exclusion going on, and it saddens me that we still exclude [00:37:00] at the expense of some of our own, so I just really want want people. I just want people to think about that, because if you're going to to clubbings and all that, I mean, I often got attacked by lesbians. Uh, you know, maybe it was because I was gorgeous and I was threatening them. But, um um, but they always had the meetings at the top of of building, you know, on second floors or top of buildings to me. You know, maybe there was a message for me. They didn't want me in their community. But, um, and you know, the other thing There, too, is [00:37:30] the lesbian community turned its back on caregiving a few years ago, and it was around the fact that they did not want to be labelled in a in a. Not that they turned their back. They did not want to be labelled. One of the issues that came up was the issue of being a partner of a disabled woman and then being seen as their caregiver. People assume my partner is not my wife, but she's my support person. She's all that. But she's not my caregiver. And people need to get [00:38:00] over the assumptions they have about our community. Just just I. I lay that. Yeah, I know. That's heavy. I'm the bad cop today. I told Philip I would be. He likes to put the nice feely stuff on. I like to put the heavy shit down. So I guess it's a lawyer in me. Really? I, I can't help it. I just wanna, you know, lay something down heavy. But, you know, I mean, and what about it? If one of our community identifies and I do, I'm mad at times and that label is a real label. I suffer from chronic depression and I go down [00:38:30] quite fast without warning. And, uh, my boss who's sitting here, uh, although she's on, uh, she's on leave from us at the moment. She needs breaks for me quite regularly. Um, but, you know, they know, and they support me, And, uh, being mad and being physically disabled is is a huge issue. Um, but having the support and understanding is important, but our community hasn't often shown itself to be that supportive. And yet we're not small in number in a lot of areas. So, you know, just lay that there. [00:39:00] And hey, we have sex too. You know, you can ask sex questions. How do you do? Oh, here we go. Here we go. That's a common question, guys. It's really quite funny. One. I don't need to answer that. Apparently, I might upset people. Yeah, that could sound like a great shift. Um, but I really love that, um, term uniquely functioning body. And, you know, I think it's it's just such a liberating [00:39:30] way of talking. And yeah, I guess I was just thinking about how, um, sexuality and how how bodies, I guess, are represented in terms of kind of how dominant culture represents sexuality. So only people who are, um, looking at, uh, particular ways kind of are sexual, but can often often seem, I guess [00:40:00] And and I mean, that's sexuality in general, not just queer sexualities. Um, I was just really wondering whether you I think it's changing in terms of maybe like young people with, um, particularly precious, uniquely functioning bodies. Um, as as they, um you know, coming through teams and so forth. Do they [00:40:30] these days feel that there is more kind of scope to be a sexual person? Um, you know, expectation. Just those expectations of being sexual, having partners being out of That's their thing. Um, just yeah, really, really interested to know? Because I guess I often look around and think, man, have have we experienced feminism? Uh, really. [00:41:00] So much of what we see, um, in our dominant kind of representations of sexuality are incredibly narrow. Not really that much of a question about sex, but maybe you could answer about sex. We probably should have put things in the programme that, um I think in terms [00:41:30] of the change, if you change, I'd say yes and no, um, I, I think there are younger people who you know, I. I just emerging as more confident than having, um you know, more openness and and feeling stronger to just sort of rock [00:42:00] up places and to people and say Here I am, you know, take me as I am both literally and you know, And um um I just wrote a chapter in a book that's about to come out called Why are faggots so Afraid of faggots? And it's being, um, edited by a wonderful [00:42:30] American Trans activist called um Matilda Bernstein, which tries to think of the best name in the world. Um, and her interest is about the fear that that that gay men especially have of gay men. And so, um, she [00:43:00] asked a group of disabled gay men and contribute, and I think I ended up being the only one that was available to do do it and what what I ended up talking about was, firstly, my experience of the fear of that I perceived in gay men to to just go there with me, you know, [00:43:30] like to to be open enough to have the conversation about, you know, what does it mean to be with someone who has a uniquely functioning body, both both in the social context, the sexual content, the the relationship context, you know, and and what sort of came down to is [00:44:00] that that impairment disability, unique function or you want to call it just makes very plain the need for us to work on connection with each other, you know? And I think something that that the the the queer So I don't have to [00:44:30] recite all the the letters because I get them a bit that although I started using the word fluid because I think I think we need to start thinking in terms of our fluidity that that we change. You know, Di diversity is almost the old hat these days. The nineties, you know, and And what's the conversation [00:45:00] about fluidity, You know, being something one day and completely different than that, you know, how do we how do we do that? But But what we actually have to do is is connect, and the way that we connect is being vulnerable, you know, And again, vulnerability is something that that we shy away from. We [00:45:30] we deny our vulnerability. We we move people aside when they are seen has been too vulnerable. You know, we we put them in institutions. We put them in rehab units. We put them in mental health services. Um, those those places are not in the, you know, they're not outside, you know. They're not shops [00:46:00] within within our usual villages. Their place is quite secret because we don't want to acknowledge our vulnerability because it's uncertain, uncomfortable and, uh and scary. And so I think what what we offer as a representation of, you [00:46:30] know, whatever uniqueness we're talking about is the opportunity to explore vulnerability and connection because we can't not do it and you know it. The the the queer Community has has almost gone the other way from from being so vulnerable [00:47:00] that you could be could be a lot to and and and, you know, I need to deal with being violent, natural thing we we've almost developed, I think a a veneer of, of of I know sort of toughness and and that hired that vulnerability. [00:47:30] And maybe again, the conversation is how do we rediscover our vulnerability in a very different world than 2030 40 50 years ago? Hm? Another question at the back. A comment [00:48:00] to follow from the point about vulnerability and our ability to engage, Um, I work in a in a human rights organisation and um, a queer human rights organisation. And, um, there was a situation recently where one of our number was clearly unwell or vulnerable in terms of his mental health. And what astonished me was the way way in which the organisation sought to sanction him for his behaviour [00:48:30] and the difficulty that, uh, as a collective we had in simply having a conversation with him about what was happening for him and what support he might require. And, uh, and it really went to your point exactly. Which was that this is an organisation that ostensibly is predicated on respect for right and engagement. And yet there was zero, appreciation or understanding of [00:49:00] his health or our own understanding of those issues. And it sort of brought home to me, I guess, because professionally, I work in mental health also, you know, but it it it brought home to me just how poorly equipped as a community we are to have the sort of conversations we need to be having with each other about, uh, our well being, you know, and caring for each other. And, uh, I don't want to pro problem him. I want to talk about everybody else and and their [00:49:30] absolute inability to literally have a conversation and I. I found it quite, um, shocking, actually, I I was profoundly I. I suppose I wasn't surprised, but I was shocked. And I was, uh I think I took away from that. This is very recent a view that, um we're poorly equipped as a community in so many ways to engage with each other around what our needs are, Um, and my interest, I guess now [00:50:00] is in, uh, rather than problems others and making others states of being the issue. What I actually want to talk about, as as people who perceive themselves to be well and strong and capable And that veneer that you talk about about Well, what What are what are those people doing then? What does community mean? Um, I, I won't use the term us cos I don't want to think of myself in that that way. But I'm sure I have all those attributes as well. I think, um, what people fail to recognise is [00:50:30] that there is actually a convention out there. It's called the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. And it's very easy to try and ignore. And now I was involved in the development of it, ensuring that indigenous peoples, uh, got a voice. The actual queer community, or whatever we want to call it internationally did not actually have a voice. There were many of us involved, but we haven't got any specific protections within that convention which angered me a little bit because I was told not to bring it up because [00:51:00] they wanted to close it the same as with the indigenous. We were told our article would be rejected. They wanted to get it done by 2007. It was done. Now, um, amendments are currently being mooted. Um, there is actually a book coming out. Yes, I've got a book chapter coming out, too. Um, actually, I've got two, but I won't brag. Um, and meaning, um, but we're not in competition with each other. We love each other. We've known each other Well, I hope we do. Um, [00:51:30] maybe I I again, I'm in fantasy. Like I was with the woman that had the meetings upstairs. Um, but one of the things that they need to recognise is they cannot problem anymore. that there is a right to work. There is a right to protections whether you identify with a with a mental health condition, whatever you want to call it, whatever mad, any identity, um, employers are gonna have they actually not going to. They have an obligation now to understand. It's not that they got to have [00:52:00] an understand they do have to have it. But New Zealand ratified without reservation, which means that, uh, basically they must comply with the UN CRPD. So I just want to put that there that it's we also, for the first time ever in the world, under any convention that the UN has developed is the right to sexual and reproductive health as well. So disabled woman know exactly what it's like to be ignored or to be sterilised or be told that you're asexuals. I mean, [00:52:30] the minute my disability came into play, the doctor said, Well, then that's over for you, isn't it? Basically, that was it. You were asexuals. I could go and be a lesbian because they they didn't consider it. It was under the radar, But so long as I wasn't having sex, you know, it was fine. because it wasn't real sex anyway. Um, but, you know, it was asexuals and, um, you know, it was it was an appalling way. I mean, I experienced the same form of sterilisation that many other disabled women experienced and, uh, discovered that doctors had lied just to have that sterilisation [00:53:00] occur. And that's not uncommon with disabled women in New Zealand. As much as it, it was legal. One time it's not now, so they find other ways to do it. And so the that issue of reproduction, the loss of reproduction. Even though I didn't want sex with men, it meant that, you know, anymore, I wanted I you know, I may have wanted another child for my sons, but I thank God because it was pretty rough having them anyway. But, um beautiful. I love them, but it was rough. Um, but, you know, the whole aspect of rights [00:53:30] is as disabled people, we have the right to our sexual identity. It's not specifically in there, but we have the right to being who we are. And if your employers, um, are going to give someone a hard time because they're becoming mentally unwell, they have a responsibility to make help that person through their unwellness to help them towards recovery or going into wellness again. Because, uh, Article 12 is the article on legal capacity. But there's also the articles around the rights to being who we are. So, you know, um, [00:54:00] let's look that up simply because we're located within within some kind of queer agency or a human rights agency or even a mental health service. Um, doesn't exclude us from, I guess, bigotry. We are just as likely to be racist, sexist, even homophobic. Um, and certainly ableist. Um I mean, recently, I've been working with it with the young guy within our own local community in Palmerston North who has [00:54:30] an intellectual disability and is being excluded. Left, right, and centre. Jeered at, um, basically refused any kind of supports. And the young guy has no idea. It's even going on. But people are just doing it. It's just vile. And, um, all you can do is speak up about it and challenge the abusers and call it what it is. You know, let's stop being polite about this. You can be tactful, but you don't have to be polite. [00:55:00] This is not a polite business. And when I see people with mental mental health conditions um being rejected or joked about, I just it just breaks my heart. Really, It's sick, Um, and having experienced racism and ableism in my own community for myself, Um, and even from health care providers, I had, um I have a severe vision disability, and, um, my eye specialist asked me if I was gay because of it. [00:55:30] You're going blind. And I asked, Well, I asked her, What do you think? I can't see what gender someone is until I'm like, an inch away and then it's too late. Um, and she said, No, no. Do you think it just narrowed down your options? And I asked her, Was she an idiot? They are. I mean, it's ignorance, but it exists in all communities. I mean, the disability community is just as racist and sexist [00:56:00] and in every other way, and the same with the Maori community can be as well and in the community, you know, we all have it within our communities. We have the duty of challenging and and can I add something because when you talk to, you know, like preach this. That's my taste. I working as a like mice like mice, project worker with Mental Health Foundation. So and and honestly, you know, like the study has shown, we all human beings have an innate ability to judge [00:56:30] even from the infants, you know, like they they they prefer white baby and blue eyes and all that instead of, you know, colours. And the only things that I always thinking is even myself. We are driving in a motorway and there's an Asian driver I was or or someone drives really slowly. And then when I drive past, I ask my partner, Is it asian? Is it Asian? And And I think it's OK to judge, but it's just also at the same time having that ability to step back and [00:57:00] say, Yeah, you know, like and and take a little bit more time to get to know the person, and I know we are going to finish. I really want to say this. I don't know why. Suddenly I just have to urge. I know a lady, a very beautiful lady. Her name is, um, talk. And, um, he taught me one things that resonate with me forever, which is everyone coming into her life. She always value [00:57:30] individual and look at the person as a person. And she just make you feel so welcome and she really care. And she really take that extra steps just to show you that she really care. And that really does make the difference. If you really want to change are really all for changing a better world. We have all the legislations we have all the law, all the act. But if we always believe there is somebody else job, we will never [00:58:00] change until unless we we work on that a little bit more extra and willing to take their steps to care about the people who sit next to us. Killed do that. I then to that one. I think that's a fitting end. Um, unless any of the other panellists would like to add anything. Can I tell you one more thing? [00:58:30] There's a really good book by I think Peter Block, um, about social change. It's called The Answer to Hell. It's yes, and, um, I've actually read it up because it's on my bookshelf waiting to be read. But my understanding is that often when we want to make change, we spend ages going. [00:59:00] How do we do this? And there's a very different space that we can go into when we go. We're going to do this, you know? So it's not how when someone says Can you include me? The answer is yes, of course. And then where do we go? [00:59:30] And I think the other thing is that we talk a lot about attitudes and the change. It's about changing attitudes. Um, it's not. It's about changing behaviour. We can all have the best bloody attitudes in the world. But until we do things differently, [01:00:00] we won't change. And it's not even just about doing things differently. It's what are the vital behaviours that we need to adopt to make change. And I didn't find those vital vital behaviours to make change. What are they? Come on. Yeah, I miss my I need to. [01:00:30] We all do. She was a good friend to us all. Shoulder killed her. So thank you, U three. Um, that's been profound. It's been fascinating. I think it's opened our eyes and we really appreciate your openness and your honesty and the gift of your experience. and knowledge and what you've given us today. So thank [01:01:00] you. Very well. It's like And now we, um and thank you to everybody who has participated in this dialogue too. Actually. Quiet. Especially. Sorry. I've got some resources here, Um, about the sexuality and rights, disability, sexuality and rights and women, I think. And sexuality and rights. There are three DVD S and some resources here. Woman [01:01:30] disabled queer that came to me this morning. Um, that I could hand out if you're interested to help yourself.

IRN: 324
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_ilott_theatre_session_5.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004136
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089430
TITLE: Session 5, Models of Activism
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Beatriz Torre; Eric Manalastas; Jack Byrne; Kelly Ellis; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Susan Hawthorne
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Beatriz Torre; Eric Manalastas; Human Rights Commission; Jack Byrne; Kelly Ellis; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Susan Hawthorne; To Be Who I Am (2008); Wellington Town Hall; Yogyakarta Principles (2006); activism; human rights; intersex; trans; transgender
DATE: 17 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the Models of Activism session.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name's Susan Hawthorne. Uh, and I'm the chair for this session today. Uh, the speakers, uh, on the programme are Kelly Ellis, who is a a barrister from Auckland. Uh, there are two other speakers. Be, uh, Beatrice Tore and Eric Manas. And, uh, I'm hoping they will come [00:00:30] in very soon because they're on second. Um, and the, uh, third speaker is Marie Mitchell, who is an intersex activist educator and Wellington. But I'll just briefly introduce people as they come up anyway, so welcome to this session. Uh, I hope it'll be a wonderful session, as everything has been so far, and, uh, it's great to be here. So, uh, over to you, [00:01:00] Kelly, um, who, as I said before, is a barrister from Auckland. Thank you. Uh, greetings, people. And, uh, I just have to say, it's great to be here and great to be, uh, in Wellington, which is my old home town. Uh, I won't spend much time on an introduction. Uh uh. I'm a a barrister who, uh, has done criminal work for the last 20 odd years. And, uh uh, the last couple of [00:01:30] years, I've been, uh, involved in advocacy. Uh, on trans issues in a more formal way. Although, um, over the years, I have to say that, uh, I've done a lot of pro pro bono work, uh, free work, uh, for, uh, for trans people. And only over the last couple of years have I been involved in a project called the Trans Advocates Law Project, which was founded with me by my good friend, uh, and sister in arms, Uh, Alison Hamblet, who was going to be here, but unfortunately, couldn't, [00:02:00] uh, couldn't make it, but, uh, after, uh, uh, creating a synopsis of, um uh what this, uh uh, presentation was going to be I was most grateful for the organisers to slot it into something and give it a heading, which was models of advocacy, and I thought, Marvellous. Now I know what I'm talking about. And, uh, I have to say that, um uh, in terms of advocacy, uh, my, uh, proposition, which I'm going to put forward and, uh, probably erode to an extent. But I suppose [00:02:30] that's one of the big issues about being trans is that, uh, you can see things from both sides, But the proposition is that a stealthy approach to gaining trans rights, uh, through strategic advocacy is perhaps a better way of going about things than trying to, uh uh, get that big case and have that fabulous victory, Uh, in the struggle for human rights in a comparatively wealthy and liberal country like New Zealand. [00:03:00] Uh, the most, uh, public or perhaps the most public and frequently fought battle, uh, is for the freedom of accused people before the criminal courts. Because, of course, um, as with, um, um, most countries, uh, people who uh uh, appear before the courts being, uh, uh, presumed innocent until proven otherwise, uh, often struggle to get bail. And that is usually because of a previous history. Uh, but that struggle for bail in the face [00:03:30] of an accusation means that defence lawyers and, uh, in my humble opinion, of course, this does sound so promotional. Uh, we are indeed one of the the frontline fighters, uh, for freedom, and it might sound freedom fighter. Might sound like an overly grandiose, uh uh, description of what defence lawyers do. But the reality is we go into an adversarial arena, the court, and, uh, we have to, uh, uh, fight our adversary for the freedom [00:04:00] of our clients. And so freedom fighter is actually very matter of fact way of describing a criminal lawyer. And, uh, indeed, that's what the court is. It is adversarial. It's a battleground where there are winners and losers. And I suppose we can be grateful for having a a state funded regime. Uh uh, which allows, uh, defence lawyers to be paid. But the current government is on a programme of locking up more people while it cuts spending on defence [00:04:30] lawyers. It spends more money on police and the prosecution service run by the various crown solicitors around the country. The right to silence even this up for review. Already there have been erosions to the rights of, uh, search and seizure not only by the court of Appeal, but parliament and also, uh uh through various legislative, uh, sorry. Various, uh, common law, uh, decisions, uh, in the court of appeal. Uh, recently, uh, for example, a, [00:05:00] um a lawyer went to the Supreme Court saying that the, uh, credit one gets for, uh, pleading guilty early. Uh, was not, um, to be set in the arbitrary fashion at 33% for a starter and the Court of Appeal said Yes, you're absolutely right. It should be 20%. And so there is an example of the Supreme Court when a defence lawyer and it was very able counsel. And I don't mean to simplify the case in a way which might seem critical of Herman's [00:05:30] argument. But he went to the court of appeal with something, and the court of Appeal sent him away with less. And no, council wants to be on the name of a tariff case and, for example, that case queen And he whenever you're trying to say, Your honour, Your Honour, Your Honour, my client pleaded guilty at the outset. Uh, the judge refers to that case and says, OK, 20%. And of course there's the case. There is the name of counsel on it. And, uh, unfortunately, the vanity of, um, almost all lawyers [00:06:00] means that, uh, they don't want to appear. What don't want to appear is the, um, council on a losing decision. And there are a number of these and, uh, I I won't go through, uh, the entire erosion of, uh, rights for criminal accused over the last, uh, 15 years. But certainly the high water market was about 1995. And since then, uh, all sorts of things have changed the concept, which some of you may be familiar with of the [00:06:30] fruit of the poison tree. In other words, if a search warrant or a search, uh, or the extraction of a confession, uh, somehow infringes against the law, then you will not be able to as a prosecuting agency enjoy the, uh, the the fruits of that well in New Zealand. Uh, just as an example, they brought in a case called this case called Queen and Shaheed, which sent AAA defence Lawyer away with his tail leak between tail between his legs. Uh, but that was quickly, uh, gobbled up [00:07:00] by the Evidence Act in 2008, which basically provided a new regime, which was if, uh, gathering evidence is like, um, catching fish for certain fish, you're only allowed to use a certain size net. And if the, uh, ranger, that's the court catches you, uh, basically, the new test is that there is a balancing test. How big is your fish? And how bad was the infringement? And if you caught a big fish. Well, then, unless you've been fishing with dynamite or poison, you're going to get away with it. [00:07:30] And if your net size isn't too too far away from, uh, the regulation rather than forfeiting your car, your car and your boat and all that kind of thing, the fishing ranger will let you go. And that's what the court of Appeal did and Shaheed and what it's done in the Evidence act. And there's a moral to the story. Sorry, it's a little long winded, but I get now to the Trans Advocates mission, and we formed, uh, this organisation, just an alliance of, uh, advocates for, [00:08:00] um, trans issues. And our mantra was, um uh, uh influence through presence. And we thought that if we simply, uh, sorry to use such a masculine term penetrated the, um, the structures of society with trans people. Maybe that was going to be a better way than going and risking an adverse decision, Uh, by taking a case to the court of appeal or whatever. Uh, so, in short, uh, [00:08:30] well, it's all, uh uh uh Great. And I turned my mind back to when we first started with the equal access to Justice project, which is, uh, uh, university students at Auckland University, who assisted us with some of the work we've been doing. One bright spark mentioned, and I don't know, a few people know about it, but the law surrounding when one can get one's birth certificates changed to reflect one's chosen gender is a little bit ambiguous. And there have been various decisions [00:09:00] which have come out which haven't worked out all that well, uh, the Human Rights Commission has, uh, in its, um uh uh uh, View, uh, has said that the law needs to be clarified on this. Now, the point is that there are a couple of ways of going about it, and one of these bright sparks from the, uh uh, equal access to justice project said Go to the high Court and get a declaratory judgement because at this stage, the only law on it is in the District court, [00:09:30] and that is a a lower court and does not have binding authority on any other court in New Zealand. Even though it is a very well reasoned decision, it's a case called re Michael. But as I said to this, uh, uh, bright spark. Uh, there was a time when, uh, I was, uh, of that view 20 years ago when I first came into the law and looked at myself, um, a young man with a dream, But, uh, experience has shown that, uh, why is appellate counsel are very [00:10:00] careful about the cases they take to the high court, the Court of Appeal or the Supreme Court? So moving on, uh, just I want to just quickly mention AAA case, which is coming up soon. I can't mention the name of it. I can't give very much information about it because it's all suppressed. But it's an immigration case. And, uh, the judge has made a, uh, a decision which is going up for review. And, uh, the challenge to the, uh, the challenge to the decision [00:10:30] is that the judge used the phrase, uh, lifestyle choice when it came to somebody having uh uh, being Trans and said that she had made this lifestyle choice and it was up to her and the consequences. This is how we're going to argue it. Uh, the consequences that flow from that choice are, um, uh, on her head because it is a choice. And that decision is in all honesty, the, [00:11:00] uh uh pending high court review is going to be a scary one. And I've, uh I'm only involved on the periphery, basically as a sort of a trans, um uh, offering input on trans issues. But that's the kind of thing where the high court could come out very easily and ill informed high court. And I have to stress that the high court is very, very rarely ill informed. But there is always the risk of a decision coming out which is not favourable. And if that decision came out and it wasn't [00:11:30] favourable, that could have, uh would have a binding, uh, a binding effect on lower courts. So taking a little bit of a step back from wanting to, uh, win the big case and and and make one's name and all that kind of thing. Uh uh. And of course, that was well and truly beaten out of me by repeated appearances in the Court of Appeal over the years, uh, it came to me that over the last 20 years, I've argued constantly [00:12:00] with judges over the use of names and pronouns for trans clients, and it's I won't repeat the comments, but usually it's, um, uh, charged as a man will therefore be referred to as a man. And I've had some sort of quite little arguments, and it's, you know, it's it's it's not good having teachy little arguments with judges because, after all, you're trying to persuade them. And, uh, but digging my toes in on that [00:12:30] over the years, uh, has given me sore tyres. Uh, but, uh, it's interesting to see that, uh, having transitioned and appearing in front of them now that, uh, use of pronouns, they all try to get it right. And it's, uh I'm not talking about something which has happened to change over the years. I'm talking about a judge I appeared in front of, say, two years ago, uh, and and argued [00:13:00] the toss. Now they all make that effort, and I think to myself trying to win these big cases, trying to do it through actual advocacy. Maybe greater influence happens rather than sort of trying to, uh, hit the snake on the head. Maybe it happens by trying to saturate from the bottom up. And this is the model of advocacy and certainly post, uh, homosexual law Reform Act. [00:13:30] Uh, it has been easier for gay men and gay women, too, I suppose, because of a sort of a knock on effect to, uh, be present in a lot of parts of New Zealand society, and that probably has, uh, almost more influence. I mean, let's get real. The, uh, the homosexual law reform bill didn't actually change what women were or were allowed to do with each other. But I'm absolutely sure that, uh, it's, [00:14:00] uh, creation of AAA Slow but inevitable sea change, Uh, of, uh, influence, uh, throughout the country. Makes it easier for everybody within the rainbow community and looking perhaps, uh uh geographically, uh, Auckland, Uh, the number of gay and lesbian women practising at the criminal bar is probably roughly, uh, roughly proportionate, uh, to the population. [00:14:30] And that is phenomenal, because I go down to, uh, I go all over the place. Uh, I don't find gay lawyers at the criminal bar who aren't based in Auckland. They just don't have them in the Waikato, for example. And in fact, in the they've only just really let, uh, recently let women uh, do, um, uh, do some of the top level criminal work. And when I say it lead to them. We're talking about old style patriarchal structures [00:15:00] which create a situation where there are no women doing top end criminal legal work. And I suppose we're left with the proposition of either all the women in the white, uh, than the blokes, Uh, and and that would really take some doing, uh or, uh, more likely that the, uh, environment. And, uh uh, the is just not as conducive to women doing, uh, well in law, uh, than it is, um, in Auckland. And when I think about the number of trans lawyers, [00:15:30] uh uh, that doing criminal law. Well, I think I might just form the, um, New Zealand, uh, transgender, uh, criminal bar association right now, because I think and please speak up if there are any because I'm very keen on making contact with other trans lawyers who are appearing in courts on a regular basis, but we seem to be rather few and far between very few and far between. But the point is that for trans people, we can [00:16:00] take a big lesson from, uh, the way gay men and gay women have. Um uh, uh penetrated and sort of soaked their way into the Auckland bar. And they've achieved the status by simply being there and doing it rather than fighting for specific cases for lesbian rights or gay rights or whatever. Just being there has, uh, a remarkable influence. And, uh, as I said, the, uh, homosexual law Reform Act certainly, [00:16:30] uh uh formed the right, but it's been far from paved. Uh, and, uh uh, the mainstreaming of diversity in the Auckland courts, I have to say is, uh is is very heartening. And if the, uh, uh, lesbians and gays have effectively shown trans people, uh, where the goal is, uh, pointed the way I mean, I won't say that our road is the same, but, uh, to gain such acceptance within the justice system, it's probably more productive to go [00:17:00] the way that they have, rather than, as I said, trying to pursue that, uh, big case where one risks the adverse, uh, decision. And while that might sound pathetically gun shy, uh, the reality is that on this particular issue about when or when you can't get your birth certificate changed to reflect your chosen gender. While I've looked for cases over the last two years, it seems that the ones that get turned down almost invariably are ones where the application could have been made [00:17:30] better. Uh, and, um, and different litigation strategy could be used. For example, um, we we can apply for these changes to, uh, make these court applications in the main centres by the consent of the Department of Internal Affairs. Who is the other party in the proceedings and could require that you make your application in the Invercargill District Court, but has indicated that it's happy to have them heard in the main centres. Where dare I say it? There is a more [00:18:00] liberal and informed bench. So, looking at this, you think the best way of getting trans people on what the best way of getting influence is getting trans people on the ground, doing things and getting them on the ground doing things is something which is done by stealth. Not necessarily, not necessarily by, um, uh, uh going for that big case. And, uh, as a closing remark, I have to say, uh, in the end, we have to wonder, [00:18:30] uh, what is the fish that flourishes most in New Zealand rivers? Uh, the biggest and longest living fish in the rivers is the eel, and it lives at the bottom of the river, and it very rarely breaks the surface. And no matter how big the boulders are or how swift the current is, uh, it it hangs in there grows to a ripe old age, whereas the most hunted fish in the river, the one which lures people from the Americas to come here, of course, [00:19:00] is the rainbow trout. And it splashes on the surface surface attracts a lot of attention, and some might say that it's very successful. Uh, in in a lot of respects, it's survival is guaranteed because they're farmed and reintroduced, reintroduced into the rivers. But the point is it the eel, which grows to be the the biggest, strongest and most flourishing fish in the river rather than the one which splashes the surface. So thank you for your time. Uh, ladies and gentlemen, friends and others, [00:19:30] OK, our next speaker, um, is Marie Mitchell. Um she, as I said before, is an intersex activist and educator and Wellington, and she's talking about? What does the I stand for in LGBTI and should it be there? Welcome, man. [00:20:00] So and And I want to thank the conference organisers for the opportunity to have this talk today, and it it's not an answer. What? What I'm hoping to do today is to achieve the starting of a conversation because you, those of you who have been coming to conferences, would have noticed for round about the last 15 years that the eye has started to appear. [00:20:30] And I and I've heard people talking over the last two days appropriately, you know, what's it there? Why is it there? And the interesting thing is that some of the people who will be advocating for it not to be there, uh, intersex people themselves. But before I start, um, I want to acknowledge those who are not with us today and for myself in particular, two friends who are no longer here. Heather McAllister and American [00:21:00] and Max Beck. Max, who was, um, my closest friend who together helped me unfold Um, my intersex reality. Because when I, um, was born in 1953 intersex was something that you didn't talk about. It was an issue of silence and shame. And so I grew up as a child, really not understanding who I was or having a language to talk about myself. So in [00:21:30] 1996 I had the extraordinary opportunity of going to America to the world's first gathering of intersex people. Now I say this with some nervousness. So let's be clear about this. This is a first gathering of intersex people in a modern Western context, because I'm very aware that we've got people in the room today and special greetings to you where there are cultures where intersex realities have been known for thousands of years [00:22:00] and intersex people have been gathering under another names and other terms, but in a in a loved and cultural context. So this is a Western context. Um, there were nine Americans and I was there representing the world. And it's even hard now, remembering the fear that was there amongst all of us and the hope you know what had brought this group of people together to [00:22:30] dare to imagine that there could be a different reality outside this shame, fear filled reality that all of us had lived with, Um Heather died. As you can see in 2007, Heather was not an intersex person. Um, Heather was a gay lesbian artist who developed a burlesque troupe and travelled around America, celebrating large [00:23:00] bodies and celebrating sexuality, and would often talk about trends and intersex issues in her work. An amazing, wonderful person and Heather died of ovarian cancer in 2007. Now, as we talk about issues and, um, rights in America, you get good medical care if you have insurance. And artists and people who are travelling on the road often don't have insurance. [00:23:30] And so by the time the community had got together and they did and raised an enormous amount of money, Um, Heather was a pragmatist, and she decided that probably her chances of surviving radiation and and treatment were very poor. And so, with permission of the people who had raised the money, she took herself off to Paris and had a wonderful couple of months in Paris celebrating herself and, as I say, [00:24:00] died in 2007. Max, my friend um, was raised as a female person. We're going to talk in a moment about the details of intersex, um, lived in the south of America and realised that, uh uh, a blurred reality was probably problematic and decided to live as a man. Um, Max had a vagina that was constructed from a malaria remnant [00:24:30] as a child and developed a very rare form of cancer. But because Max was living as a man wasn't entitled to female health care. So by the time that the insurance company decided that Maxx, the man, could actually receive gynaecological support and services, the cancer had developed far too far. So I'm just putting that out in terms of one of the reasons why I should be. There is for health reasons and terms, and I think that [00:25:00] the Rainbow Banner is an appropriate place for that. So to Max and Heather not going, um, some of you will have heard during the conference people referring to Sue Dunlop, a local wonderful lesbian musician who would have been very large in the conference. Um, had she still been with us, and [00:25:30] Sue tragically died very suddenly, Um, last year again from cancer. I'm sure she's here in spirit, and we've talked about the the catastrophic disasters that are impacting um, plane and I want to go back a little bit and just acknowledge, um, my Australian colleagues that the terrible floods that occurred in Queensland we know what's been going on here in New Zealand and what is currently unfolding [00:26:00] in Japan. But I'm also mindful of the tsunami that struck the Asia Pacific region several years ago. So back to the eye. So what are we talking about when we talk about intersex now, a definition that I'm comfortable with is a physical body that someone has decided is not standard male or female. And that's important. Um, the medical [00:26:30] definition shifts and changes and who's underneath that umbrella? And that's all intersex is. It's an umbrella term also shifts and changes. So under that umbrella, uh, at the moment in the West, there's at least 30 different diagnosable conditions. And as I say, what what is on that list? Changes. The what was under the umbrella when I was born is not the same as [00:27:00] it is now, Um, and yeah, that's important. Intersects, um, we talk about what the incident is. Incidence is where the condition is visible and able to be diagnosed. The generally agreed figure is probably one in 2000 live births. But we have research coming out of several countries, Hawaii in particular, where it's clear that the number and incidents is [00:27:30] much higher and may be as high as one in 100. But most of those conditions are invisible. They're not diagnosed, and they certainly are not known to the person with the condition. This is a really important point. So as intersex people grow up and become adults, we're located all across the gender, gender and sexual orientation map. Um, those [00:28:00] of us who will stand and be visible and identified as an intersex person are incredibly small in number. This this remains a shame. Fear issue, and for people to re remove themselves from that blanket that surrounded them as a child is very difficult. And what I know is, um, when you've grown up in a situation where it's very clear that there's something wrong with you [00:28:30] and something that needs to be fixed, you aspire as a teenager to be normal and to blend into society, to not be different. And so so to go through that evolutionary task, Um, as a teenager and and and reach a place where you're comfortable with who you are or even in a place to work that out. I was in my early forties, um, before I began that work, and I [00:29:00] only started that work after completely collapsing. I lived really as a female person. That's who I thought I was. But it was a very plastic false place. Um, I performed, if you like the the role that I thought made my parents comfortable I. I didn't realise that until I was in a position to unpick that for myself. It's not easy to go. Hm OK, I'm a different person. And then to work out what that difference [00:29:30] is. And and again, I say that in the West Because up until recently we had no images. We had no reference point. There wasn't a place where I could go and say, I'm like that person. That's one of the wonderful things that's changing as people are visible and now there are reference points for, um, our young people and I can see the difference that that's making so another point is adults. Uh, many intersex people [00:30:00] are conservative, they're invisible, and I'm certainly aware that many of them are deeply homophobic. And as I say, you will have people who are incredibly uncomfortable with the eye being on a banner. The term intersex is a relatively modern one. it came into usage during the 19 fifties. I haven't ever been able to find out who first [00:30:30] started using it, but it certainly appears in medical text during the fifties. Prior to that in the West, the term was pseudo hermaphrodite and hermaphrodite, and again comes out of a a very inaccurate, um, idea or concept that comes from, um, Greek mythology. So the idea of somebody having a fully formed Penis and breasts which, as you know, is actually not possible. [00:31:00] And I. I just want to take a moment and and re acknowledge that, um, intersex realities exist in in many cultures. And now there's there's two there. There are many other cultures, as as well, um, where the intersex reality has been recognised and and valued. In culture, it's not always like that. There are two extremes. There are other cultures where intersex people were recognised at birth and eliminated, so the story [00:31:30] hasn't always been positive. Um, I've put all this text in in here, and I I'm hoping that you can read it. So the intersex treatment model grew out of it. And as you can see in the fifties, um, and it came about through a conjunction really of a whole lot of secret things. And it's quite interesting to understand that. So the development of better surgery and it's interesting because microsurgery developed massively [00:32:00] during the Second World War um, changing understanding of of gender and sexual orientation. And so we had this notion start to develop in the fifties, led in large part by a New Zealander, um, Doctor John Money, who who had a theory that all of us are born as a blank slate, um, in terms of gender at birth and that gender comes [00:32:30] from socialisation. But part of that also was, um, in terms of socialisation having a normal or congruent body. So the theory was that you could assign a gender. It didn't matter which one. And then so long as the body was physically congruent and the parents there was huge, um, emphasis on the on the parental responsibility. So long as they raised the child correctly, the child would grow up with normal, um, [00:33:00] normal orientation. And it's really important again, I'm I'm thinking about why you belong on the banner if we unpick this. The theory behind this is that the child is going to grow up heterosexual so they will identify and in the gender assigned to them and that their sexual orientation will be heterosexual. So that's it's sometimes stated, but not often stated. And so this model, [00:33:30] um, came into being and and one of the things I'm very aware of, I don't want to criticise it totally because the birth of an intersex child in in Western culture has been very problematic. It was in the fifties, and I don't think that that's changed yet. So this is a little bit more detail about the mo model that was developed, um, in Johns Hopkins University, and it's really interesting that it flew around [00:34:00] the world and was embedded as best practise very, very quickly. And of course, it's gone on to be used in in most, um, countries and cultures around planet Earth. Now, also at this point want to acknowledge that the term intersex has been changed and is no longer used in medical literature, it was replaced six years ago with a much more advanced terminology of DS D. So disorders [00:34:30] of sexual development is the now modern term. Um, most intersex people find this a massive step backwards. So I would I do want to acknowledge that the birth of an intersex child, as I say, creates this anxiety, and I'm gonna put forward a hypothesis shortly. So, um, this is one of the references that is is quite often referred [00:35:00] to out of a piece of medical literature. So next to perinatal death, genital ambiguity is the most devastating condition to face any parent of a newborn. So this was one person's view, but I think it would be supported by a number of medical people that this is a catastrophic situation that is only worse, Um, by the death of the child. [00:35:30] So what are we talking about We're talking about then a a baby that's born with this different body. Um, and I don't know what it's like in other cultures, but typically in western culture, when a child is born, the first question that's asked, Is it a boy or is it a girl? I've had the privilege of working with, um, a very senior midwife here in Wellington. [00:36:00] And we actually have developed in the midwifery course a programme, and I know absolutely that with information and with time, midwives very easily find the language to be able to have a conversation with a mother that's not a panicked, full of anxiety conversation where there can be a different outcome. But typically, um, the birth of a child at the moment in many, many settings around the world is one filled with, um, extreme [00:36:30] anxiety and concern. So my understanding of really what was going on came from a conversation that I had with a mother in Australia, how we're going on time. Mhm, OK, and I was asked to speak to this mother now at the point I had the conversation with her. Her intersex child was about 15 and [00:37:00] I. I came in to talk to the mother, and she was still talking without stop two hours later, when I had to leave because I was going to another appointment. And what the woman explained to me, I, I didn't really understand at the time, as I say. My understanding came later and she explained her child was born and and there was shock in the room. She knew that immediately, Um, the child was taken away from her and [00:37:30] she was left completely alone for about five minutes. And after five minutes, the the senior medical specialist came in and he he he started the conversation, that he had some very bad news for her. And I have to tell you, this child was perfectly healthy other than the insect condition, and he sat down beside her and, um used the word intersex and and she she must have had some training because she knew what [00:38:00] he was talking about. She said he carried on talking because his lips were moving. But she had absolutely no memory of what he had said. And she said, What happened in my head was I started to think about my baby, and I thought about my baby growing up and how terrible my baby's life would be. And I thought about my child, um, becoming a teenager and and she went on in this narrative until she reached um, her child being a sexual being. And she was absolutely convinced [00:38:30] that her daughter, as she didn't know the gender, but it would be her daughter would be a lesbian and that she would have no grandchildren. And it is unpicking that that I started to realise that the what goes on and the birth of an intersex child is this very ancient response to difference. And what goes on is a response. It's a homophobic response, both on the parents' side, and I think unconsciously on the medical [00:39:00] team. II. I don't think that this is a known or understood, um, emotional phenomena that's going on. And so even today, um, typically, the response is that we we that society looks at the child, and doctors make a decision whether this is a male child or a female child, and they still absolutely believe in the paradigm of, um, binary. [00:39:30] And then typically the surgery is carried out even earlier. The surgeons like to do the surgery within the first six weeks because they assure me that that's the best co cosmetic results, how often this is occurring. Well, I know at one stage last year here in New Zealand, and this is not a large country, that there were five Children waiting for this surgery. Um, these are the reasons that are given by medical people for [00:40:00] the surgery to occur. As you can see, it's quite a a long list, and and my question and the conversation that I want to carry on when we, um, get to question time is as a queer community, I believe that this is an issue, absolutely, that affects all of us. And I don't believe that the treatment of intersex Children will improve greatly [00:40:30] until we deal with homophobia on Planet Earth and people feel comfortable with having a child who is different. We don't know how that child is going to grow up. They may be the most outrageous queen on the planet, um, with a very different gender and sexual orientation or the most conservative person in the street that is absolutely not known when the child is born. That's the issue. Thank you. [00:41:00] Thank you, man. Um, just before we go on, uh, have Beatrice and Eric arrived? No. Looks like they're not coming. OK, so we have heaps of time for questions and discussion, which I think is great. Um, because there are lots of things that have been raised by [00:41:30] both Kelly's and Marie's talks. So please, um ask your questions, OK? Over over here. There's a microphone coming. A roving mic is coming. I'd like to ask. So in your view, being an intersex person, when is the best time for an intersex baby to be well, do they need for, firstly, [00:42:00] do they need to have an operation? What is your view? I'd like to know that right. Well, I, I will give you my view. Um, it's not mine exclusively. But my perfect world would be that the child is loved. Absolutely. The child needs a gender because the reality is that we do live in a binary world of male and female, so it's appropriately. But I think one of the things [00:42:30] that the transgender community has given planet Earth as a gift is even in the most normative body. Um, we don't know how the child's going to identify when they grow up. So all things if the parents were given the tools to love that child and and deal with the issues because I'm I'm absolutely understanding that there will be issues as the child grows up and there's age appropriate conversation so that the child isn't [00:43:00] filled with fear and shame. They realise that they have a different body, but and it's a different OK body. Um, when the child reaches teenage years and and again, it will depend on the development of the child. But at some point they will realise what their gender identity is and then make decisions around whether or not they have surgery. We we have lots of examples of intersex people who have grown up without surgery, and so we know that, um, people [00:43:30] can have wonderful, healthy and very sexually active lives with different bodies, so that's not the issue. But as a teenager, if the child decided that, yes, they did want surgery and people were reasonably comfortable, they weren't doing it just to be normal and fit in. That's what they wanted. And they should have access to the very best surgery that's available with the most competent person. So in answer to your question, it's something [00:44:00] that would occur as you are an adult. This is something we can do as a to drop. Yeah, we talked about this when we were presenting working out this session. I think it's really important that we don't go racing out the door and stoning to death surgeons. That wouldn't be a good outcome. This is a process and a journey. And it will happen when [00:44:30] society is comfortable with difference. And when we deal with homophobia, Um, so we're on a journey here. And yes, I would like it to change today and and for it to be different. But that's unrealistic. What can you do? Go and talk to people and include this in your conversations, Um, and and as that ripples out and and we talk more and talk about difference and and different genders and different sexuality And how do we fit that into our our rainbow? Is [00:45:00] it even appropriate that we fit it into the rainbow? Should and intersex people go off and form another group. You know, should trans people be there? Um, that's the next step. And then to have that vision for that other kind of society and say, you know, where we've come from so far, that's part of the journey part of our. But maybe we're we're heading into a new place that's different. And that will be hard for those of us who are older. You know, we've come from a much more rigid place, [00:45:30] but I think there's an invitation there to get excited about them. OK, so this this new step might be exciting for all of us. Um, hi. My name is Yen. Um, I've got a question for which is, um how, how and who decides what gender the child is. And does the parent have a choice and whether the child receives the surgery or not, Um, at least in New Zealand, quite a complicated question. [00:46:00] And it would vary where, um the child was. But But typically what happens at the moment is, um, the gender of the child. It is defined from quite a complicated medical criteria. So the history would tend to say that say, people with a client filtered condition, typically a male, um, people with this carrier type of their CH are [00:46:30] typically female, so it's not a random allocation of gender, but it's still given in the belief that it's an absolute. So there would be extensive testing carried out, and then the doctors would come back and they wouldn't say Our best guess is they would say your child is male or female. That's the first part of it. The second part is that it's still very difficult to make male genitalia, so the overwhelming [00:47:00] decisions that have been made in the last 50 years have assigned intersex Children to more typically female. Though I think that is changing. That's one of the things that's changing, and it's interesting because it's a complete reversal. So during the Victorian time, the and it wasn't medical thinking it was legal thinking was that it was considered inappropriate to deny the rights and privileges of Maleness to someone who might possibly be [00:47:30] so in the Victorian era. Typically, um, intersex people were assigned male gender as I was when I was first born, Um, but more and more parents are, you know, becoming informed. Thanks to the Internet. Several years ago, I had parents approach me. Their child had been born in a smallish provincial city, So we're not talking about a village. We're talking about a fairly large place. [00:48:00] These parents did not want their child to be operated on, and the consulting clinicians told this family that if their child grew up to be a Mac, an ex murderer not to blame them, and this family had difficulty receiving any kind of medical care at all in this area. This is New Zealand about six years ago. So, yes, parents can not go along with it. Um, [00:48:30] but it's a very, very difficult thing to do. Kelly Marie, do you think that, uh, the, uh the common ground that intersex people have with trans people is the fact that many are mis gendered at birth and face the transition at a later stage? And that is the common ground with the trans and intersex. Um, it's common for some intersex people say some intersex people, um, reach [00:49:00] adulthood and believe absolutely that they were assigned the wrong gender and and then go through transition. If if those of you who are familiar with DS M will know that if you are intersex, you cannot be diagnosed with gender identity disorder. So it becomes very problematic then to transition and a and a a way that a transgender person would. And often the person has had genital surgery [00:49:30] already, and sometimes they've already been given hormones. So a person who wishes an intersex person who wishes to transition faces enormous obstacles. Um, there's a small but growing group of intersex people, and I'd certainly fit into that category who go while I was born with this very unusual and different body. And this part of me, that's masculine part of me. That's Femine. And that's just how it is. And I'm gonna hold that as a as [00:50:00] a reality outside the binary. And so it's It's It's not a clear cut path. Overwhelmingly, the most intersex people would identify as a female or male. Kelly. I just wanted to ask about what role you see the media playing in the sort of strategic advocacy that you talked about. Is it a help or a hindrance? Uh, I initially trained as a journalist, and I have to say that, uh, I don't [00:50:30] wish to dog journalists, but, um, if you've got to suck with a long spoon when you're dining with the devil and I don't think they've made one long enough yet really to dine with a lot of journalists because unfortunately, Trans is still, um, seen as being AAA freak show, and I don't mean to sound critical of of gay male culture. But the creation of all these drag shows and that kind of thing creates this, uh, this [00:51:00] vision, uh, of, um of Trans people being, you know, blonde beehives and, um, and sequins and that kind of thing. And so I look at the the news media overall has been damaging to trans people, particularly when you start looking at, you know, the TV. These reality shows whose reality, uh, with sergeant majors going off and being subjected to multiple multiple medical procedures, all funded by the camera, which is staring [00:51:30] up their surgically created vagina. And if you start looking at this model of, of, of, of media presentation, I think that's really bad. And, uh, I think it creates something which, um, uh, an idea that Trans people are mostly something which most of us aren't. Because, of course, those are the visible trans people, the ones who make it into the into the GL BT magazines and that kind of thing. Um, it's, uh I have to thank George [00:52:00] Bush for this one. I think one of the few things I thank him for was we don't know what we don't know. So I mean, all the trans people there who are flying beneath our radar just never get we just don't know about them. So our perception as when I say our I'm talking about the public perception is what they see in the New Idea magazine. That's what they see, uh, in in the magazines. And, uh, it's what they see on the television and most of us. Our reality is very different from that. So I think that [00:52:30] the media trying to manipulate if I may use that phrase or perhaps something a little more neutral trying to make the best use of the media is something which even somebody who is, uh, um reasonably familiar with journalism such as me. Even I look at it and I think it's a very, very, uh uh, a problematic and scary thing to do. And, uh, I, I don't mean to sort of, I mean here I am, uh, appearing in four courts a day. Some days probably [00:53:00] have sort of appear and more public fora than most Trans people during the course of a week. And, uh, usually there are journalists there, and usually I managed to keep well, always I managed to keep my head down far enough that they write about my clients and not about me. I sort of dread it. And, uh, you know, it's only going to be a matter of time before some bloody new idea person or something finds that they're short of space and, um, and wants to pick up on this the way they picked up on, you know, Bob Moody and that [00:53:30] kind of thing. So it's It's worrying and problematic from a trans advocates point of view. If you do have a public profile and unfortunately, appearing in courts regularly creates this, and so I'm left with the dilemma of, you know, what do I do? Do I try and sort of manage the release of information? So that is, uh, I can favourably influence it all. Um, just try to keep my head down and, uh, especially when journalists are around the place and I usually go for the latter, which might seem a little cowardly, [00:54:00] but, uh, we've all got to make our way through our lives. Don't we hope that answers? Thank you. Um, there's a question here. This is for money. I wanted to ask if you were using in your work some models of gender, which were non medical models of gender. It's not that I'm using a model. It's that I've [00:54:30] lived and unfolded with friends, a new model. So a reality that's neither exclusively male or female didn't exist when I was growing up or not, one that I had access to. So I I Some of us who met in in California in 1996 realised that we we we didn't even have the language. I mean, how do you start talking about something? English is so binary. [00:55:00] And so we became very close friends. We it's even pre regular use of the Internet. So in the first few years we wrote each other letters and then the Internet arrived. And now we've got Skype and and And we talked and we talked and and we danced ourselves a new reality. I mean, I'm now aware through my own research, that there are other cultural realities and how wonderful that was to to find that and and find new realities [00:55:30] to to help affirm what we were doing. So it was. It was a both an exciting and difficult thing to do, and I think now we're starting to get things written, so I think it will be written up soon as a model, but this model doesn't exist anywhere, substantively in in in the West anyway. But thank you for your question. Thank you. A question at the back. Hi, man. [00:56:00] Hello. Um, I'm just wondering if you I've I've been in a position of, um, supporting intersex students before, and, um, I really struggle to access resources, um, to support that work. Um, I'm wondering if you have any suggestions for resources. The organisation that I run, the intersex trust, um, has some resources and our focus. We we haven't been an advocacy peer organisation. [00:56:30] We're an education training organisation. And so one of the things one of the goals that we've made for this year is to make the resources that we have more widely available. So that will include a number of DVD S, um, our little leaflet, and hopefully with funding this year, we'll be able to provide more, more resources for people like yourself. And I think one of the really important things will be, um, this whole idea of fluid [00:57:00] and and plastic rather than creating something. You know, you have to be like this because, as I say, intersex people are hugely varied. And and the primary task for most of us is getting past that shame and fear and isolation, which has surrounded so many of us. And as we've grown up, uh, there's a couple of questions here. I think, um, I've got two, actually, if I'm allowed. Um, firstly, [00:57:30] um, yeah, I just wanted to say that I think the the one of the most valuable things from that presentation for for me was the, um, importance of the link that you make between the way that we culturally respond and medically respond to intersex Children and and people and the the link, the very strong link with homophobia. And, um, it's a hypothesis I I like. I think it's an extraordinarily good one to the degree that for for us to culturally maintain the concept [00:58:00] that heterosexuality is normal, it relies absolutely categorically upon believing that it's true that there are, you know, normal men and normal women and and intersex people, um, challenge that assumption. So I'd like to go one step further and say, You know, not only will the issue of dealing respectfully and appropriately with intersex people be addressed only once we deal with homophobia. But, um, to flip that around a bit and say that anyone who is [00:58:30] serious about dealing with homophobia has a responsibility to be taking, taking on intersex issues and talking about them regardless of whether we ourselves are intersex or not, That's my that's my point. And, um Oh, sorry. No, no, Let's keep talking. Then I'll make my point. Oh, OK. Uh, one of the things that I wanted to say because it would be very easy to sound like I'm demonising the medical profession and I'm not I'm I'm acknowledging there's a construct, [00:59:00] and one of my, um, trustees is sitting here in the audience. Dame Margaret Sparrow and Margaret and I have presented at multiple conferences around the world gently cha challenging, um, this paradigm. And I know that our work certainly has found ears. So it's, uh, if it's sounding like I'm putting all doctors into this box, I'm not and and I think one of our sadnesses is that the the work hasn't got gone as far as we would have [00:59:30] liked. So there are people thinking, and there are people willing to take on what I'm inviting everybody to take on today, and I just want to acknowledge that the support of Margaret and that work Margaret, did you want to say something particularly for, um, the questioner who asked about resources that in 2008, the school curriculum recommended man's story as [01:00:00] a resource. Um, for secondary schools. And what the trust would like to do is in fact, uh, to provide a copy of man's story. Um, for all school, all secondary schools, um, in in New Zealand. And, uh, if anybody feels so inclined, we've got a millionaire sitting in the audience just wanting to give away some money we'd love. We'd love your donation. Do I get, [01:00:30] uh, just This one was for Kelly, which is why it stops there. Sorry. Just it was just a A, I guess. Um, a comment I. I come from Australia, and one of the things that we've found really useful and that I was thinking about as you were talking about, you know, is, um uh do we get change by actually litigating, or are there more? Um, you know, advocacy based ways of of achieving change and one of the things we found it really useful in Australia is to [01:01:00] be using a discrimination complaint mechanism and going through the Human Rights Commission in in the AC T but also, um, federally because, um, I don't know if the process is the same is the same here. But in Australia, when you make a complaint, you get a chance to do a mediation process and by being strategic and, um, engaging usefully in that, um and positively in that process, we've actually managed to get some, um, real [01:01:30] really good positive conversations with people that are sitting around a table that wouldn't otherwise ever sit around a table. And it's a much less adversarial model. And and in Australia, you end up when you reach agreement, you end up with, um, you know, a a binding, binding agreement at the end of that that people actually need to act on. We've got some fantastic policies and changes in direction out of doing that very quietly. So yeah, well, I'd have to say that in terms of complaints. I mean, I do mostly [01:02:00] criminal work and there's only one of me. And so I try and sort of to an extent stick with my knitting, but also try and incorporate as much as I can in it. Um, but one of the interesting things is that complaints and New Zealand has a system where complaints are dealt with in the strangest way. And while say in America, you might end up with a tremendous fight over whether a, um, a non non operated on, uh, Trans woman can go to a woman's prison that might result [01:02:30] in huge litigation and might end up, you know, in the highest court in New Zealand. We seem to have this amazing way of of absorbing the issues, so I don't want us to get too much to anecdotes, so I'll try and be quick. But the the Trans client in the men's prison, uh, is required to give a urine test, uh, to avoid being becoming an identified drug user. So if you fail the test or refuse to give the test, you get that status. She was also asked to be searched, and there were only male prison wardens there, [01:03:00] and she said, Um uh, none of you dicks are going to search my bra. I refuse, and they said, OK, that's fine. You're now an identified drug user and we've got seven days to lay a charge for the visiting justice comes in to deal with things at the prison. So anyway, on the old horn to the prison about this and what did they do? They never laid the charge. So on one hand, while it's sort of you think there will be a great opportunity to litigate and to mediate and [01:03:30] to create awareness and that kind of thing. But the system, rather than having to address these, you know, attitudes and rules which were formed in the fifties and perhaps even earlier, simply avoids it by sort of encompassing, uh, the, uh What's happening. And it means that, for example, we do have one non op that I know of Trans Woman in a women's prison and that, um, women, uh, are not being identified [01:04:00] as drug users because they've refused to let a bloke search their bra. And so I think that sort of, you know, that's it would be nice to be able to do everything. But as I said, I think the old transgender bar association is pretty sparsely populated, but I have to just make one point, which I forgot to mention because I was running out of time was the Human Rights Commission's, uh, transgender, uh, inquiry report has an absolutely brilliant executive [01:04:30] summary, which is available on the website, and I use this on a regular basis I printed off. It's only about eight a four pages. I think Jack will probably correct me on it if I've got it wrong. Um, but annexing that to submissions and putting it in front of, uh, judges, Uh, it is astonishing the results that I've got and generally speaking, what they do is they fudge it. I mean, I had a client who had was looking at eight years jail for chopping off a guy's fingers. Uh, she tried to cut his throat and steal [01:05:00] his what? And she'd normally be getting eight years jail for it. She had the most terrible, tragic upbringing, uh, booted out of home lived rough, uh, worked on the streets, addiction, all the kinds of things which you know we so commonly hear about. And I put all this in front of the judge and said, You know, not only will it be harder for her as a Trans woman in prison, but it will also you know, if you start looking at the causes for her getting here, there are many and varied. Anyway, the judge was just about in tears. [01:05:30] I was doing quite well there and at the end of it said, Well, look, I'm going to give us a six month discount because, um, it's going to be tougher for her in a men's prison. But I can't recognise all the other things that you've raised and then gave her five and she gave her 4. 5 years jail. So again, that's a way of you know, I'm not critical of the judge for fudging it, but she did not want to stick her neck out and, uh uh uh again create a situation where she would be [01:06:00] quite possibly appealed by the Crown Solicitor's office and end up creating a potentially adverse decision for her. It was much better to, uh, dismiss the submissions on the point that this is being trans contributed to her economic and, uh, and and legal difficulties. But what she did do was gave the result, which was fair. And just so again, that sort of, you know, that doing stuff by stealth and not, um, taking exception [01:06:30] when your submissions are dismissed, so long as the bottom line is one which accords with, you know, your expectations. So it's a long winded answer, OK? And I was just gonna say, um, just really quickly in terms of the resources. One of Marie's amazing strengths is that she bridges so many different communities and creates discussion and dialogue. Um, with lots of people. And in my paid job, I work at the Human Rights Commission. [01:07:00] Um, and we we we had this exact same question about whether or not intersex people would be included in our transgender inquiry. We had had, um, people. We knew that both trans people and intersex people were very marginalised and suffered human rights violations in this country. And we had a, um on a long list of priority actions we had needing to have an inquiry into the experiences [01:07:30] of both. And from the beginning, we thought, Shall we put them all together? Should we do two? Should we do one? What? What should we do? And we talked with and others, and it's it is also that question I'll stand over here. Um, it's also that question of, um, being strategic about the balance. You know, can a community is a community at a place where actually other people coming in and doing an inquiry is useful? Or does it make [01:08:00] them more prone to does it pull that community apart? And basically the advice we got is there wasn't an intersex community in A at that time, and I think would say there still isn't and it wasn't a safe thing to do. It wasn't a, um, and there weren't people who would want us to mix it all together, so we did a transgender inquiry. But having said that, there were some intersex people, some people with intersex medical [01:08:30] conditions who would hate to be called intersex people, some men or women who had some experience in their life that was relevant to the experience of intersex people who wanted to come and share their stories. And mostly we got the people that Kelly referred to who had some intersection with our community, either because when they were on the street, the other girls they met on the street were trans women or because they had decided [01:09:00] to transition later in life because they were given, you know, the wrong gender. So the the all because they lived in a small rural community and the only other person who was vaguely like them was an was a trans person. So that was kind of like their family or their they they became part of it. And so at the back of the inquiry, there was a a chapter because when we heard those stories and I can remember those submissions and they were some of the most powerful we got and everyone cried, they were really, [01:09:30] really, really powerful submissions. And and there were some people who came to and most of our submissions they weren't people sitting down and writing long things. They were people coming really tentatively into one of our human rights Commission officers or in, and they came to the community centre and being really scared to come in there and then finding some family when they got there. And we set up a room with a cup with food and drink, and people sat there before they came and shared their story and and some shared it with others [01:10:00] there to and support them, and some did it very much in private. But sometimes it was the first time someone met another intersex person. So So we end up with the intersex chapter at the end because we couldn't hear those stories and not share them with others and are there. And that's very uncomfortable for some intersex people that they are there because the front of the of the of the documents is transgender inquiry. So it's a hard thing, so you have to kind of make that call each time. And we made that call based [01:10:30] on the people who were there, the people who were there and the need to pass on their stories. And then since then so So it also means we knew all of you. If you're at the conference, you've got a little, um, rectangular orange pamphlet that says to be who I am on it, and it's got a picture of and also of a, um a a trans woman, Natalie Sheer, and that gives you the URL to find the website, and if you go there, that will take you to the Transgender Inquiry website. [01:11:00] Once again, we added an I page. It's an uncomfortable page, but it's the only place to have visibility at this stage so you can go to that page and you'll also see the little updates of the small amount of work we've done since then, which is large. You know, Margaret and Marie have been a part of that. Other people who are here at this conference have been a part of it and that we've held two round tables where intersex people have sat in the room with, um, health professionals, [01:11:30] endocrinologists, pre predominantly and paediatricians. And And there's also been some human rights commission people there and some academics. And we've said, What does it mean to look at these health issues through the lens through a human rights lens? And I'm always so touched by How does that You are one of those very, very, very generous people. Um, for some of the Maori people here, I often think of as a bit like Moana Jackson. [01:12:00] Like the a huge amount of generosity he has in his approach to people. Um, you are you are that bridge. You make it safe because in those in the last one we had, we had parents of intersex people there, too. And any of you who do who do this activism know the huge potential tensions we have with all of those people in the same room, and you make it safe for all of them. So just another resource is that website page, [01:12:30] and it's got the, um, minutes from both of those round table discussions, which I think are some really good things about, you know, the questions that people might have. Thank you. Um, any more questions? OK, er, thank you very much for the for the the great presentations. Um, I want to ask many two things, um, one of them When, uh, I am an an intersex activist from [01:13:00] from Latin America. And some of my friends and I there, uh, always wonder how are we going to build an understanding of intersex issues different than the understanding that is produced and exported by the US all the time. And I wanted to know your opinion about about that, and it's possible to think about intersex issues in in the terms of our own cultures or Global East Global south, uh, understanding the the other issue is that [01:13:30] most of the time when we talk, uh, with with people around us we talk about, uh, medical practitioners. We talk about what, uh, is been doing to Children right now about our own histories, and we start talking. We have started talking about human rights, and and some of us believe that it's time to start talking about some kind of reparation, including legal reparation, to say, Well, you know, we need to protect Children [01:14:00] that are still not, uh, born, but we also need to take care of our own community of intersex adults. You know, uh, it seems that that our we can talk about intersex issues, uh, in an abstract, you know, to say we need to stop surgeries in the future. But most of us are people, uh, that have been deeply hurt by surgeries that have had place many years ago. And we need [01:14:30] not only a human rights, uh, recognition of that, but a human rights answer. A very concrete answer. Um, thank you for your beautiful questions. And there's numerous. No attempt to answer them. Um, absolutely. The the dominant narrative that has come out in the early years has been the American narrative. And I want to acknowledge Cheryl Chase for at least kicking the door open. And I think and part our answer is here [01:15:00] at this conference because we have multiple narratives presenting themselves and people saying, This is our culture. This is how we see it. Um, you know, don't impose your Western narrative on us. So I think that the intersex narrative has to be a multiply faced narrative and come out of different places and it will be grassroots. It will come from the different countries and there are different histories. You're absolutely right. Um, a lot [01:15:30] of the focus has been on Children and the future, and there are thousands of us. And and that's why I always introduce my presentation with Heather and Max because many of us, our health realities, have been massively compromised by what happened to us as Children. And that has not been recognised. Um, there has been no, that I'm aware of financial compensation. I have [01:16:00] a wonderful doctor. She's a fantastic person around everything except intersex. And I'll give you a story. For many years, she has wanted to do a vaginal smear, and I've said to my doctor, Nina, you can't do it. I don't have standard plumbing and and obviously, in her medical training, there was, um she saw me as female. So several years ago, she asked me and I I was angry and I lost [01:16:30] my temper and I said, Do it. And she was very excited because she got a tiny child speculum. So I spread my legs as I did many, many times as a child, and she went to try and do this, and she can't. I physically have a body that's not possible. And the shock on her face. What is the model for those of us with these different bodies? How do we keep safe? What? What should our doctors be doing with us? Those of us that, um, [01:17:00] have had hormone treatment, you know what would you What should we be looking out for? We we know a lot of treatment is prophylactic taking away parts of our body because it might develop cancer. But what should we be looking up for? What should our doctors be looking up for? And I agree there's probably enough of us now to, um, start working collaboratively and and go back to to medical people and say we have these different bodies. How do we take care of them [01:17:30] wherever we fit in that gender sexual orientation map? Thank you for your question. Thank you. Um, thanks to both Marie and Kelly, and it seems to me that we have a multitude of sexes and only two genders, and somehow there's AAA. Um, it's it's a bit hard to make it all work. Um, and obviously that has in that conceptualization has, [01:18:00] um, impacts on all of us. And as does the homophobia that, um, has been talked about in this session today. So thank you. Thank you to the speakers and thank you to your, uh, really fabulous questions. And I hope you enjoy the rest of the conference. Thank you.

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ATL REF: OHDL-004137
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089431
TITLE: Session 6, Accountability Mechanisms
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Charles Chauvel; Sam McLean
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Charles Chauvel; HIV / AIDS; Sam McLean; Wellington Town Hall; Yogyakarta Principles (2006); activism; human rights; politics
DATE: 17 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the Accountability Mechanisms session.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi, everyone. I think it's, um, my pleasure to to be here at this conference today. And, um uh, my name is I'm from the gay and lesbian rights lobby in Australia. Um, and coming here to New Zealand and seeing such, um, diversity of people and particularly having the privilege of hearing the indigenous peoples of this country, uh, speak around these issues has been a real privilege for myself, where in Australia we're still struggling for even those basic kinds of recognition, Not not just [00:00:30] for sexual minorities and gender minorities, but for indigenous peoples. Um, and with that, it gives me great pleasure to introduce the session today, which is on accountability mechanisms. And, you know, it's fabulous to have law reforms and policy that, you know, theoretically, um, are designed to benefit communities, people, um, families and so forth. But it's essential that these policies and practises be made accountable to those people. And so today [00:01:00] I shall be We have two very special speakers. Um, our first speaker is, um, Charles Shovel, who's a member of Parliament. Um, and Charles is the Labour Party spokesperson for Justice. Um, he has had five years, uh, in parliament, and he has been actively involved as a lawyer prior to his involvement in Parliament. In all the major, um, same sex law reforms, Uh, since 1985. What's that, right? No, not at all. [00:01:30] And, um, our second speaker is, uh, Sam McLean, who joins us from the New Zealand Human Rights Commission and who has been a mediator there for four years. So has an extensive experience in conciliating and mediating complaints around a range of different issues. Um, so I would like to welcome Charles to get our topic started for today. [00:02:00] I'm glad that we got a big venue for this presentation. Um, when the organisers talked to me last year about coming and, uh, speaking on the issue of accountability, I thought maybe I should just try and put a bit of accountability into practise. Uh, because, uh, last year I was appointed to the United Nations Global Commission on HIV and the Law, and one of the things I've been very [00:02:30] keen to do was, uh, to talk a bit about our work, to report back on it and, uh, to hear any questions. So I'm going to do a short 20 minute presentation on the work of the commission, Uh, today. But also I'm very happy to take questions on the presentation or on the issue of the accountability of elected officials generally, particularly the Queer Communities. It's something that I've thought a lot about. [00:03:00] And, um, I think it's something that we all need to to to work very hard on anyway to the, um, particular presentation in hand. Last year, the United Nations Development Programme, whose administrator is now, of course, Helen Clark, our former prime minister, and the United Nations Joint Programme on AIDS Uh, which is a partial initiative of the U NDP and, uh and and other [00:03:30] UN agencies decided that there was a gap in the in the evidence around, uh, the best way to stop the law from oppressing people at risk of HIV uh, and uh, manners in which to use the law to, uh, facilitate, uh means to stop the spread of HIV and [00:04:00] to empower communities at risk communities as far as the human rights are concerned. So if you can imagine kind of moving from the old British colonial model of the sodomy statutes through to the sort of models that we're trying to operate in places like New Zealand, Australia, uh, most of Western Europe and Canada. Uh, at the moment, the the issue here is what is the evidence that making that move actually makes [00:04:30] a difference on health and human rights grounds? And there's a surprising paucity of evidence around that. And what the UN agencies decided to do is try to bring together judges, lawyers, politicians, public servants, each of whom had had some experience in working on law reform initiatives. Uh, and to try to tap into the experience [00:05:00] of those people, uh, with a view to getting them to hear further evidence from affected groups and communities and put together a definitive report which could then be used, uh, to demonstrate that this type of, uh, law reform continuum was the way to go if we wanted to make a difference, uh, globally on HIV, the um commission had its first meeting in Sao Paulo last October. [00:05:30] Uh, that was the first opportunity we all had as commissioners to meet one another to map out our work programme and to have a look at the particular issues that we thought we needed to study in order to make the sort of difference that we hope we can make. And so what I wanted to do today was just take you through, uh, what we discussed and what our forward work programme is And, uh, hopefully encourage you to, uh, tell your friends and colleagues about this initiative [00:06:00] and to participate in it. And indeed, we have people in the room who've already, uh, taken up that challenge. So that's the membership of the commission. 14 people, Um, I started with the ex presidents up at the top because they kind of breathe their own oxygen. Um, but they are fantastic individuals. Cardozo, when he was president of Brazil, uh, made made a major difference, particularly in respect of drug law reform and in respect of safe sex education. [00:06:30] And you can imagine the challenges in a big Catholic country that he faced. But he just said, Look, um, if we're going to be serious about the issues, this is what we have to do. Uh uh. Similarly, in his time in Botswana, it was interesting talking to him. He said, Look, you know, it is very hard to talk about these issues openly in Africa. Uh, and it wasn't possible for me, even though I wanted to to ask the Legislature to to put a repeal [00:07:00] bill through because they still have, uh, that dreadful old British colonial sodomy statute on the books. But he said what I was able to do as head of the executive branch of government was essentially stop prosecutions from occurring in Botswana. Uh, and so he affected a a kind of de facto decriminalisation, um, which, uh, you know, was, uh was, I think a real example. And I'd just like to acknowledge Marilyn Waring, who's, uh, come to the room. My former, uh, a AAA, former [00:07:30] member of the New Zealand Parliament Who, uh, who knows these issues Very well. Uh, then we've got representative Barbara Lee from California. Uh, she has done enormous amounts of work, particularly in the afro-american and Latino American communities on, uh, how to get effective prevention measures out into the communities. Uh, Dame Carol, the only woman in the PNG parliament, uh, again, somebody who's been a real pioneer in terms of how [00:08:00] you how you challenge traditional taboos. Uh, and how you try to use the law and legal opportunities in order to make a difference. Uh, and then we've got the former MP S, uh, Senator a Pakorn from Thailand, uh, representative Shahira from Costa Rica and former MP, uh, provincial MP from Ontario. Steven Lewis Prasada, who's a former head [00:08:30] of the, uh, health Ministry, the federal Health Ministry in India. Uh, the two judges, Michael Kirby, now retired from the High Court of Australia, Edwin Cameron on the Constitutional Court of South Africa. Uh, two African a academics Miriam and Sylvia Tamale. And, uh, I think importantly for this exercise, uh, she who was a former journalist on Al Jazeera and for the economist, uh, who [00:09:00] brings a very important Islamic perspective to the work of the commission. So when we met, we we thought, Well, what are the what are the areas in which we can, uh, try to gather evidence over making a difference as far as using the laws concerned. And we looked at the profile of the epidemic, Uh, at least as far as the latest statistics were concerned, uh, it can be seen that, uh, women [00:09:30] are somewhat overrepresented. Uh, at least, uh, as far as the, uh, developing world is concerned, that's not shown precisely on that chart. But we'll come to that later. Uh, and, uh, we've got we We've still got an ongoing, uh, major mortality problem and too many new infections. This is a graph that shows the profile of the epidemic over time, and and and obviously the number of deaths has come down, thanks to the availability of retrovirals. [00:10:00] Um, that's the, uh, the yellow, uh, dots joined together. Uh, and also the absolute number of new infections has been coming down. Hopefully, thanks to prevention programmes and safe sex messages. But of course, the absolute numbers of people living with HIV is still increasing. U NDP and UN AIDS have done some work on the various scenarios under [00:10:30] which, uh, we might be operating going forward complex matrices, including the availability of treatments, um, and, uh, changes to societal attitudes and laws. And they've come up with a number of scenarios, many of which I think are actually quite depressing. What we want to do is come right down to that structural change scenario and be, uh, unashamed advocates for that. And obviously, structural change includes dismantling oppressive [00:11:00] laws and putting in place uh, those laws that do actually safeguard people's human rights and allow them to participate in in society, uh, without fear, uh, and without, uh, without discrimination so that they can access the full range of services that they're entitled to, uh, including, uh, prevention, services and treatment services. So the first work stream we decided on was one around gender. And, um although, as was seen in the previous [00:11:30] graph, the absolute distribution between men and women of HIV infection is roughly half and half, um, in the developing world and in particular, uh, in sub-saharan Africa, you see a very different picture emerging. So obviously any work that we're gonna do uh, that tries to tackle the problem, particularly in the developing world, has to look very seriously at the way in which, um, women, particularly young women, [00:12:00] are impacted. And I don't This is a AAA diagram that shows the two ways that you get from getting theory from gender inequality issues through to people being forced to participate in in unprotected sex. And it depends on which analysis you want to use, whether it's kind of because men tend to be physically and socially dominant in in societies uh, particularly where this is an issue. Therefore, [00:12:30] they can get away with violence against women. Therefore, women can't negotiate safe sex. Therefore, they end up having unprotected sex or whether you go for the economic analysis. You know, men control the economic resources. Women are economically dependent on them. Therefore, they can't negotiate safe sex. Therefore, you get the unprotected sex. I don't especially care, which is more valid. I think it just shows that, uh, there's a problem that needs a solution. Um, so basically, women [00:13:00] and HIV is our first work stream. The second work stream that we felt the evidence led us to require to consider was marginalised and criminalised populations. I hate that terminology. But it was easier than saying men who have sex with men, um, people who use, um, injecting drugs, um, people in prisons and, um and, you know, other, uh, basically people already with HIV who are prosecuted for having HIV, which you know, is still, uh, still crazily the law in some places. [00:13:30] So that's the shorthand that the, uh, the Secretariat has decided on and again, if you have a look, one of the major issues here is is the unavailability of evidence again, Uh, because there's no standardised requirements around reporting by particular nation states. Um, but look, here's a stab at, um, the distribution of new infections by sources of risk in some selected African countries, both in southern and Eastern Africa and in West [00:14:00] Africa. And they've they've basically looked at, um uh, the there's obviously the heterosexual infections. That's the bottom line, then, uh, multiple partner infections. Men who have sex with men, people using ID, uh, intravenous drugs, um, sex workers and then then another category. Now, these aren't reliable stats. They're self selected. Um, uh, only one jurisdiction. Kenya [00:14:30] actually measured, uh, prison based infections. But even if they're they're not entirely accurate. They show that if you're not dealing, uh, with, uh, sex workers, men who have sex with men uh, IV drug users, then you're really failing, uh, in your duty to try to do something about this problem. Um, and in terms of the, um, [00:15:00] un gas, the UN General Assembly country progress reports in 2008, here's the difference. And again, it's a bit rough. As far as sex workers, IV drug users and MS M are concerned between and and and and and the solid red graph is bar as as as countries where there are nondiscrimination laws. The the pink one is where there aren't. Here's here's how much easier people say it is to, [00:15:30] um, reach prevention services where you've got some protection from the law. As against, uh, those where it's not, I don't think for any of us in this room, this is gonna be a surprise. You would be amazed at how surprising it is to people who never had to think about these issues. And finally, um, again, an area where stunningly there is not great evidence yet because of the lack of standardised country reporting and the fact that some countries just don't do it. Um, [00:16:00] here's prevalence of HIV reported HIV amongst adults. Uh, that's the small, um, purple bar, uh, versus, uh, adult men who have sex with men. And it's, you know, it's different jurisdictions again, But it just shows that, uh, as as it would in New Zealand, Uh, if you don't tackle the problem amongst men who have sex with men, you're not actually taking the problem seriously. And that isn't [00:16:30] just in developed countries. Um, another survey that essentially, um, shows that in in countries where in Africa, uh, men have come for men who have sex men have come forward to participate in surveys. The, um you know, the, uh this Well, the stats are awful, actually, and [00:17:00] and again show that, uh, you know, you've got people who just are being prevented from coming forward to access services. Uh, because of the fear of discrimination. And I thought this one was an interesting one again. Um, it's a little bit rough and ready, but you've got the old British colonies in the Caribbean, Jamaica, guana, and Trinidad and Tobago that still have the old, um, seven or 14 year hard labour penalty for [00:17:30] consensual homosexual acts in private versus um, some of the former European colonies in the Caribbean and the Dominican Republic. The Bahamas is is different because they they switched early on from the old British model to a more European models and Cuba. And there's the difference in HIV prevalence in the same region between countries that have decriminalised and those that haven't pretty compelling. Even if, as I say, it is a little bit [00:18:00] rough and ready as far as the states are concerned, Um, And then as far as national AIDS responses are concerned, and I should say, if anybody wants this presentation in the graphs, I'm I'm very happy to make it available. Or if there's a conference website or something, you know, it can go up on it. The, um, the material is publicly available. Um, basically, this is AAA graph showing the percentage of countries by region that report programmes [00:18:30] designed to actually try to change societal attitudes. And, um, then there are those that don't and you can see again. There's a big difference region by region. Finally, um, and I wanna make sure I leave time for questions, So I'll I'll I'll conclude shortly after this. Treatments are a real issue. We've been waiting for the vaccine for [00:19:00] 20 years. Um, we've had good availability of retrovirals. We've we've learned about the cocktail. Um, we've managed through generics to make effective treatments more widely available, particularly in developing countries. So those are all good things. And you can see that, um, the mainly thanks to the global fund, uh, the [00:19:30] the increase in in the availability of antiretroviral treatments has been significant now whether that will continue, given the failure of the replenishment last year or the substantial failure of it to reach its targets. I, I couldn't say, But you know, obviously there's a real, um, illustration of how far we've come and how far we need to continue to go. But the concerning development, I think, has been around [00:20:00] what appears to be the effect of intellectual property treatment, uh, treaties and laws brought into being as a result, um, again, I'll just summarise this in this way, we have been more effective at driving the price down as far as existing retroviral treatments are concerned, then we have been at bringing new treatments and innovative treatments on to market so we can get the price down of the things that we already [00:20:30] use. But there's been a major downtick in people being willing to, uh, come up with with kind of the next, the next level or the next step of treatment. And I think that's we've got to have a look at whether or not IP law is causative of this. And if it is whether or not we can maintain pre downwards pressure on price upwards pressure on availability, but also continue to incentivize innovation because [00:21:00] it would appear that we're falling down in that area. So just in summary, Where to? From here for the commission, we're gonna hold a series of regional hearings. We've had one already for Asia Pacific. It really irritates me how the UN thinks of Asia Pacific as one vast kind of homogeneous region. But they, um they've ticked the Asia Pacific off with a hearing in Bangkok in 16. 17 February. I think we need to do something that's that is specific [00:21:30] to the Pacific. Um, and I'm trying to, uh, have a little side negotiation with the U NDP about using its regional office subregional office in Fiji for that purpose. At some point. Uh, there's a Caribbean regional hearing which Michael Kirby is going to, um, preside at on the 12th and 13th of February. Then we're going to run one in the middle or actually probably three across the Middle East and North Africa, one in Eastern Europe, one in Latin [00:22:00] America, um, one in sub Saharan Africa. But it might have to be more than one, uh, one for the high income countries to deal with their particular issues, probably in the US. And then we're gonna have a a kind of call for expert submissions on on the three work stream issues across the board in a way that's not limited to regions. But, uh, talks generally about, uh, about interventions that are proven to work, uh, and laws that are proven to demons to, uh, to not [00:22:30] contribute to the to solving the issues. The full commission is gonna meet twice, uh, again once in August, to review the results of the regional hearings, uh, and then to kind of work out what needs to be done to distil the evidence that comes from those hearings, uh, in order to produce its final report, which, um, we're trying to get done by December, and then the hard work actually begins and that we're all gonna have to start trying to work out how we [00:23:00] lobby to get our evidence based recommendations adopted, particularly in developing countries where, uh, and in Eastern Europe and and and other countries where, um, at the moment, uh, a punitive rather than a an empowering response is still seen as the appropriate one to the epidemic. Uh, so Finally, there's the side of the commission, and, um, it's got a a good level of information [00:23:30] about what we're doing. I hope this isn't just going to be another one of those UN projects that produces a lofty sounding report and then doesn't go anywhere. Uh, but of course, that's always the risk. Um, and the the only way we'll we'll have any hope of of, of going some way to make sure that that doesn't happen is to get wide participation and broad participation so that we can actually demonstrate that we have looked at the evidence about what makes a difference. So, um, my plea to you today, uh, and [00:24:00] and hopefully offering you my accountability, uh, for being on this commission is please participate. Thanks. And I'm obviously happy to take questions. The high. And as I said, I don't mind if they're on the work of the commission on or on. You know what the hell gay MP S think they're doing in Parliament? And you know how we should be relating to our communities or [00:24:30] whatever? Yeah, not bad. Um, does the commission have any relationship or liaison with, um WHO the World Health organisation. There was yet another agency that connection with the firm next door. I was wondering whether to give you the official or the honest response. Um, you know, this is the first involvement I've had with [00:25:00] the UN, and I am a little bit astounded at how little, um, the various UN agencies seem to cooperate. But obviously WHO is one of the kind of parent organisations of UN aids. UN AIDS is a big sponsor of this, so they're aware of our work, Um, and and supportive of it. And, uh, there's already been mention in, uh, I think in the, [00:25:30] um in the latest, uh, world health. Um, I'm just trying to remember the name of the gathering. It's not the not the Congress assembly. Thanks. Marilyn already been mentioned in the latest assembly of the work, and similarly, um, for example, the UN human rights bodies are actively involved and supportive of, uh of this work, um, and have participated in, uh, in in in sending material to [00:26:00] us and suggestions about how we might go forward. So I'm told that that's not not bad. Uh, not a bad level of cooperation as far as the UN is concerned. Well, thank you very much for, uh, your time. Uh, and, uh, if you would like to, uh, get in touch with me offline. I'm, uh, easily available through email at the parliament website in New Zealand or on Facebook. Thank you. [00:26:30] And now he has to dash off to do some important ministerial business. Oh, excellent. Oh, great. No, we're more than happy to have you stick around. Um, now, er it's my pleasure to present, um, Sam, who's, uh, joining us from the, uh, New Zealand Human Rights Commission, where she's gonna just talk a little bit about, uh, the work that she does as a mediator in relation to sexual orientation [00:27:00] and gender identity complaints. Thank you, Sam. Right. OK, so I'm going to talk to you today about the commission's, uh, complaints mechanism and relate some case studies on sexual orientation and gender identity discrimination. Ok, so, um, our mandate for, um, progressing complaints comes from the Human Rights [00:27:30] Act 1993. And, uh, also the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act is referred to in the Human Rights Act in terms of complaints against the government or government activity or, um, bodies carrying out a public function the, um, unlawful discrimination provision. Uh, sorry. Unlawful discrimination provisions. [00:28:00] Um, discrimination itself isn't defined. However, as a guideline, we use, um uh, a complaint if it has a ground of unlawful discrimination, an area of public life covered by the act and someone's disadvantaged or treated differently. And there is an absence of exempt, an exemption or a justification contained in the act. Then that, um, comprises unlawful discrimination. [00:28:30] And we can, uh, progress the complaint. There are the grounds of, um, discrimination. Sexual orientation was added was one of the last ones to be added in 1993 and gender identity is covered by sex. Um, Georgina Beyer tried to introduce a, um, human rights amendment [00:29:00] bill that was specifically, um would have included gender identity as a ground of unlawful discrimination. That didn't happen. However, the government, um, lawyers at the time produced a an opinion, a legal opinion that said that gender identity was covered by the ground of sex. Up until that time, there had been some sort of, uh, confusion or lack of clarity, [00:29:30] and the commission had approached the government on a number of occasions to clarify that matter. So the areas of public life in which, uh, discrimination needs to occur for us to be able to progress a complaint, uh, those listed there and government or public sector activities were added in 2002 following a 2001 amendment. Um, prior to that, [00:30:00] the commission had been able to get involved in complaints, um, to do with employment where the government was concerned, but otherwise we weren't able to progress complaints about government activity. Um, so the, uh, the other areas are employment, access to education, access to public places, provision of goods and services, provision of housing, land and accommodation, industrial and professional associations, qualifying bodies and [00:30:30] partnerships. Other provisions are relating that the, um, Human Rights Act covers outside of discrimination in terms of progressing complaints, uh, racial disharmony, sexual harassment, racial harassment and victimisation. Victimisation covers situations where someone has, um, claimed, uh, their human rights or hasn't [00:31:00] expressed an intention to claim their human rights. And so if someone has done that and they're victimised because of that, they can make a complaint to us, and we can progress that so the, um, dispute resolution process the objects of it are covered in section 75 of the Human Rights Act. And under that section, um, there are [00:31:30] various provisions that are there in order to, um the commission is, uh, sorry. Mandated to facilitate information provision recognise, successful resolution is more likely if it is resolved promptly by the parties themselves. Obviously recognising in some situations, that's not appropriate. Um, support, flexibility. So we do this by, [00:32:00] uh, accommodating the needs of the parties. We can, uh, use email, teleconferences, video conferences, our preferences face to face mediation where that where that can happen. However, we can use various methods for resolving complaints. And obviously, um, the act was designed to ensure that we used efficient and formal and cost effective processes. [00:32:30] Uh, the the introduction of mediation also occurred in 2002 after the 2001 amendment. Uh, previously complaints had been handled through investigation and there had been a backlog, and those could involve huge processes of interviewing witnesses and taking statements, and they could take months and months to resolve. And the idea was to speed [00:33:00] up the process to make it more efficient, more effective, and to have more, um, ownership by the parties involved. So that's when mediation came in. And it's a free, confidential and voluntary service voluntary in the and obviously in the framework of a statutory, um, setting. So when we approach a respondent and, um, you know, they're not terribly happy about [00:33:30] coming along to a mediation, we inform them that, you know, they always ask, obviously, what happens if we don't attend? Um, we always have to inform them that the other party has the right to go to the Human Rights Review Tribunal. So when we say voluntary, there is an incentive to come along to a meeting. OK, so when we get a complaint, which we can get in any form, [00:34:00] um, someone can phone in with a complaint or we have an online form or there's email or people write letters. Um, phone up? Yep. So we have a front line staff infoline who take the calls, and they they sort of screen them to see whether it falls within our mandate and whether it should be passed on to a mediator. And so, um, if it is, we look at it, and if it you know, people will say I've been discriminated against. [00:34:30] We'll look at it in terms of the act and if on the face of it it looks like discrimination, we take it and we progress it. So we don't make any finding at any stage of this process about Has there been a breach of the act or not? If, in the complainants view there has been and they have been discriminated against, we take that at face value. So then we, um once we've had the complaint and decided it's within our scope, we seek the complainant's view about [00:35:00] what they would like to do about it. Um, and we contact when they want us to. We contact the other party, and we go back to the complainant, uh, to talk about the other party's, uh, willingness to participate. And then we decide on an action with the complainant, sometimes with complaints. People don't want to go through the whole process of a mediation. Sometimes they want us to phone up and talk to it. Might [00:35:30] be, uh, an employer and their child might have applied for a job, or the person themselves may have applied for a job and been told we don't employ women or whatever. Um, and rather than have a mediation meeting, they just want the commission to inform that person that we've had a complaint and to inform them that those, um, actions are liable to our process. Um, if the if the complainant doesn't wish us [00:36:00] to take it any further, that's as far as we can take it. And we can't, um, enforce anything on that person. So So it very much depends on what the complainant wants. So, um, as I said, we decide on the action and then go from there. So just looking at, um, the dispute resolution spectrum, you've got sort of negotiation between [00:36:30] the parties facilitation, mediation, conciliation, arbitration, and then litigation. So we are sort of in the middle mediation, Um, and if our process, um So if I go back to when we get a complaint and the parties, if they agree to come to mediation, we have a face to face meeting, and usually there's a settlement and an agreement drafted, or a letter or whatever is appropriate for [00:37:00] the level of, um, the complaint, the the the party's wishes. Um, So if it's mediated successfully and there's a resolution and a settlement. That's the end of the matter. The commission closes their file, and that's the end of the complaint. If there's no resolution or if the, um, respondent refuses to come to a meeting, the complaint is closed at, um, the commission level. And then we advise [00:37:30] the parties of their rights to go to the Human Rights Review Tribunal. So that's where um, there is a completely separate and independent agency dealing with matters that go to litigation. Um, you'll see there another, uh, title, the director of human rights proceedings. A party to a complaint can apply to the director of human rights proceedings for free legal representation. So it's sort [00:38:00] of like Legal Aid. However, the director will take into account a number of factors when deciding whether to represent somebody such as likelihood of success. Is it a strong case? Is it going to affect a number of people? Um, costs. Obviously, he's, you know, he's accountable for those costs. So there are a number of factors before he, um, actually agrees to take on a case. [00:38:30] So just just looking at some of the, um, components of of mediation, Um It can be an empowering process with the parties own their, um, in the way that it's resolved. Um, and they're very much a part of the discussions. They're given the opportunity to speak. [00:39:00] They they have the opportunity to hear the other party's views. Um, it's a place where reality testing and dark creation can happen. The mediator can help the parties assess. How realistic is it? Is it for them to take this any further? Um, and what's likely if they don't settle at that stage? It can be educative to the parties to hear the other person's viewpoints. Um, [00:39:30] and it can enable ongoing relationships or assist with ongoing relationships, especially in the employment arena. Um, and they're subjective outcomes. So it's what the parties agree to, what suits them. So it's not something that's imposed. These are some of the benefits of mediation. Shift perceptions create [00:40:00] greater understanding to help people make wise decisions, um, better ability to to respond to cultural differences. We can accommodate different needs of people, um, rather than the formalistic sort of court processes. And there are more options available for resolution. What what one person considers a resolution. Another person may think that's just not going to cut it, but, um, you [00:40:30] know, I've I've had a mediation where where it was, you know, a cup of tea and a walk around a campus was was the outcome that the person wanted and and it was agreed to. So it's a very broad scope. Of what? Of what can resolve a matter. Of course, there are alternative views about mediation. Um, one of it is, uh, one question is, is it right to mediate a right, [00:41:00] um, does the confidentiality of mediation impede the potential for educative reform? Well, the confidentiality obviously governs the process and means that the parties can have full and frank discussions. However, it means that the information exchanged cannot be used in any alternative arena or at a at a later date or a different forum. So, um, there's [00:41:30] protection there. However, you know, there isn't the publicity around a a court decision or whatever. Uh, so you have to weigh up those pros and cons. Really? OK, so, um, now, I'm just going to move on to some case studies. Um and, you know, it may be that for a party just being heard does [00:42:00] have some affect or helpfulness in their lives. Um, and you know, a resolution may not happen, but they they get the chance to let the other party know how their actions have affected them, and hopefully that may institute some change in that particular person. So, um, mediation meetings can take various forms. [00:42:30] Often people will have either a support person or an advocate or, um, solicitors often attend. When solicitors become involved in mediation, it can be really helpful. And it can be really a hindrance. So it very much depends on the approach of the the solicitors to the process of mediation. Um, yes. So I mean, you know, it's [00:43:00] it's just variable according to that particular person on the day, Um, so sometimes the mediation won't be, um, resolved at one meeting, and there will be ongoing discussions. And that may happen through the mediator. Or there may be, uh, shuttle, um, mediations or, um, possibly video conference or whatever at a later date. So sometimes one meeting is all that can be, um, had, and [00:43:30] the discussion goes on. Other times, it it's all resolved on the day and the settlement is drafted on the day. So I'm just going to talk about, um, three or four case studies of sexual orientation and gender identity, um, complaints. And, um, in the commission's latest report, Human Rights in New Zealand 2001, the chapter on the rights [00:44:00] of sexual and gender minorities identified that uncertainties and gaps remain around the rights to found and form a family. This case study pre provides an example of discrimination in this area of life. A lesbian couple who were awaiting the arrival of a foster child. Um, they informed the agency they were working through that they were a lesbian couple. They had, um, filled out the application form [00:44:30] they had gone through training. They were informed and were led to believe that everything was going along smoothly and they would get their child on the the, uh, the appointed day. They were then informed, um, that the board of the agency had decided that no, they couldn't foster the child due to their sexual orientation. It was a Christian family services agency partly funded by child youth and family. Their own [00:45:00] in-house legal opinion was that they did not come within the Human Rights Act jurisdiction as they were not providing a service under contractual relationship to the foster parents. The couple were totally bereft and understandably upset and came to the commission. Let's see the commission's own legal opinion was that, [00:45:30] um there were arguments in favour of the agency coming within our jurisdiction because it appeared that they were carrying out a public function under part one of a A of the act, which covers public functions. The mediator progressed the complaint the couple wrote to the agency, asking it to change its policy to meet anti discrimination standards in the Human Rights Act and to compensate them for their financial and emotional investments and preparing to foster the child. The agency [00:46:00] was willing to attend mediation to acknowledge the distress caused, but indicated there was no possibility it could change its policy to not discriminate on the ground of sexual orientation. It explained its religious basis and offered compensation at a sum less than that requested at mediation. The agency didn't change its position, but offered sincere apologies for the hurt caused and agreed to pay a higher sum of compensation. The couple [00:46:30] decided not to take this matter further to the Human Rights Review Tribunal to test the agency's claim that its policy did not fall within Human Rights Act jurisdiction. They agreed to settle and indicated they would in future offer to foster directly through child, youth and family. In another case study, Uh, Lucy was a transgender woman who applied for life insurance with her partner When they [00:47:00] got a mortgage. Her partner's application was approved, and six weeks later she still hadn't heard back from them. She anticipated it was taking longer to proce process because she had disclosed she had gender reassignment surgery. She approached the commission about her concern that this related to her gender identity and was discrimination. She received a letter from the company telling her her application had been deferred for a year because [00:47:30] it fell outside the level of risk covered under the company's usual underwriting guidelines. Her doctor and her insurer, insurance agent requested the insurance company reconsider its decision. The company approved of her application. She was happy with the outcome, and being able to discuss it with the mediator had helped support her through the process. So often, mediators are there in a supportive role rather than directly uh contacting the respondent. [00:48:00] They assist the, um, complainant to do that and may make suggestions about who else to get involved to support them in this matter. Um, a gay man had tried to donate blood, but discovered he could not because he he is a sexually active gay man. He complained to the Commission of Sexual Orientation Discrimination. The commission put his complaint [00:48:30] on hold pending the outcome of an independent expert review into blood donation criteria. The review group recommended the deferral period for men who have had male to male sex and it be reduced from 10 to 5 years before they can give blood. The complainant had questions, so the commission arranged a mediation meeting between him and the um NZ blood service. He said the meeting was productive and could see that they were doing everything they could. [00:49:00] Uh, New Zealand Blood Service accepted the review recommendations. The standout period has been reduced to five years in relation to specific sexual practises. New Zealand blood service then went on to work with the New Zealand AIDS Foundation to improve its communication and understanding in the gay community about the deferral criteria. Since then, the commission has received another complaint in which it was believed the post review changes did not go far [00:49:30] enough. That complaint is ongoing in another matter. This exemplifies the low level resolution process that the commission engages in. Eva is transgender, male to female and was employed as a driver. She had been using the female toilets at her place of employment and was told she couldn't do that anymore and would have to use the accessible toilet. [00:50:00] She believed her employer's view changed since they found out she had not yet had surgery. She contacted the commission about her rights. The mediator discussed with her how she could approach this. She was provided with the link to the transgender employment fact sheet on the Department of Labour's website, and it was suggested she passed that on to the employer. Also, she was to give the employer the mediators, contact details. She provided the health and safety supervisor with the [00:50:30] information and also a supporting letter from her doctor, and the situation was returned to how it was originally. She in particular, hadn't wanted any fuss, so the low level resolution suited her front line staff deal with many complaint inquiries which do not come, um, come to mediators as they are dealt with by the information advisors on the front line. [00:51:00] And every year we receive complaints about school balls schools not allowing students to take the same sex partner along to school boards as a result of having a number of complaints on that matter. We have produced an, um, frequently asked question sheet, which is available on our website, and we suggest to students and schools that they, um, use this in guiding their decisions. [00:51:30] Um, we receive a lot of complaints from people about homophobic comments made by colleagues and employers. I'm just looking over you. Um, we also receive a number of complaints about how to change, um, sex details. Officially, what are the marriage rights for trans and intersex people? Harassment by manager for being transgender? Uh, people [00:52:00] refused access to a district health board transgender therapist prisoner taken off medication for transitioning. So though that's an example of some of the questions, Um, we get through our inquiries, and this is just a, um, a graph illustrating the number of complaints with grants that we receive the percentage out of our total [00:52:30] complaints so um, you can see that the the total percentage is pretty low in terms of all of the grounds of discrimination. I don't know why that is. Um, I I'm not sure if if it's to do with the process or or whether people just manage to resolve issues themselves or what that is. Um, So I guess that's a question as to, [00:53:00] um, what that could be about. Um, so that's that's my presentation. Thank you. Thanks. Sam. Um, how many do you know how many cases each year? The, uh, director of human rights proceedings is actually progressing through the last two or three years. That's a very good question. Um, I can't give you exact figures. Uh, do [00:53:30] they have in house counsel and Sorry. How many? Um, there are three lawyers that work for that office. Uh, there's the director and two other solicitors, and they would be taking cases, but as well, giving you guys advice from the front line. Or if you got actual. We've got, um, lawyers that work in the commission. So the two, agencies are independent and separate from each other. Obviously, we, uh, communicate and they ask [00:54:00] us for our information, Um, on the complaints that we received and we provide that. But we don't provide any information that happened within the mediation process. So, um, I don't think it's a huge. I mean, I think he gets a lot, a lot of the applications, but I I'm not sure of the number of cases that actually proceed, but that that actually segues quite well into my next question, which was, if it doesn't resolve at the mediation stage, and it and it [00:54:30] is, go up to the to the sort of next step to the at the director looking at it, uh, given the confidentiality sections that are in the act, what is it that you guys actually pass on? Because I'm aware that a lot of people come to your office and they have just made a ring up and there's a verbal complaint, and I'm aware that mediators will take written statements from people Are those which are I'm not sure is that Is that taken by you guys in the context of mediation or or in, in, in [00:55:00] in is it being passed on or not passed on? Ok, um, those are really good questions because the act, the way it is framed is fairly ambiguous. It talks about dispute resolution process that, um, information disclosed within the dispute resolution process, and then it talks about mediation. So there are ongoing discussions between the commission and the, um, Office of Human Rights proceedings about confidentiality and where the lines [00:55:30] are drawn. Um, we tend to anything that's provided by a party on the understanding that it's confidential, and it's not to be disclosed to the other party. We obviously don't hand over that information. We hand over information about the actual complaint once a matter, once we enter into mediation, which can take place on the phone prior to a mediation meeting, we don't hand that information on, but the [00:56:00] the lines are pretty blurry. OK, so what I'm hearing from you is that the if if someone comes in with a just having made a verbal complaint or a complaint over the phone referred to you if you take a statement from them, yeah, and that's before you've contacted the other side, obviously, and and seeing whether they'll agree to mediation, that's all fair game to then go on. If if if the matter doesn't settle. Yes, just that initial complaint [00:56:30] would be part of what would be handed over right and also anything from the from the the person who was the subject of the complaint. Because I know that often statements are being taken by those people as well. Well, it it depends when again, it depends. There's no sort of strict answer when you consider mediation or the dispute resolution process starts. I. I appreciate there's no strict answer, but so what's the current practise, I guess, is the question I'm asking. I mean, it's fairly arbitrary, [00:57:00] um, deciding when mediation starts and as part of my role, I I'm that I receive requests for information from that office. So, um, I look very carefully at what, um, you know, it looks like it's confidential, and often the mediator will mark something in in mediation. So that certainly helps. Um, but it is. Yeah, it's [00:57:30] I'm afraid there's no definitive answer to that. Yeah. Uh, hi. I'm sorry if I missed this point at the beginning of the lecture, but, um, I know the Bill of Rights Act has to be taken into account when, uh, Parliament is drafting new legislation. and also has to be taken into account when courts are interpreting legislation that already exists, even if there's inconsistencies. Um, I'm just wondering, with the Human Rights Act is what kind of influence? If if it does have much influence [00:58:00] on other legislation either already on the books or being drafted the Human Rights Act? Yeah, is there is. I mean, does it have any, um, in the way that the Bill of Rights Act does? Uh, no. There's no sort of check for inconsistencies in terms of new legislation. And it's just the Bill of Rights Act, I think. But the Bill of Rights Act does refer to the, um, sorry. The Human Rights Act refers to the Bill of Rights Act. Um, so, in terms of a specific [00:58:30] process, checking out legislation, uh, I think there was some, um, there was a review done in about 2000 or 2001 review of inconsistencies of laws with the Human Rights Act. And when the last, um, human Rights uh, status report was done in 2004, a lot of work was done about, um, working in future with ministries [00:59:00] around, ensuring that the legislation is in line with the Human Rights Act. Um, so I think policy, they do a lot of work around that, and obviously, in submissions on bills, they always, um, put forward human rights legislation to be considered. So it does take place in different ways. Um, yeah. [00:59:30] I'm gonna use my prog if we share our Sure, um, uh, the foster care scenario that that we discussed is pretty much exactly the same situation that we had in New South Wales. Um, uh, two years ago, where a same seal couple were seeking to foster a child from Work Co. Commission, which is a faith based, um, organisation, which receives public funding, um, to provide that public function as you articulate it. Um, thank you. [01:00:00] Um And, uh so my question is it's interesting. You said that that case seemed to hinge around the fact that, uh, that agency believed that they weren't providing a contractual service, whereas in the case I'm referring to it hinged on the exemption, um, and the availability of an exemption. So I guess my question is, how How broad are the exemptions to anti discrimination laws and particularly concerned with, uh, faith based [01:00:30] exemptions and where organisations are in receipt of public money, right? In terms of organisations being in receipt of public money, Um, I'm not sure about the exemptions there. Um yes. So for example, in New South Wales, faith based organisations are entitled to an automatic exemption even [01:01:00] if they are in receipt of public funds and they're contracting a government service that's effectively the case from that doesn't exist here that automatic exemption. I mean, I think that would have been an interesting case to have gone to the tribunal in terms of whether, uh the tribunal would have found that they were providing a public function, therefore were covered by the act. Um so the I mean, there are exemptions. There's a religion. There's an exemption, [01:01:30] um, to discrimination and employment on religious grounds. Um, it's a specific exemption in the act and the Human Rights Act. Um So there are a number of specific exemptions relating to the different areas of public life within the act, and I could provide more information about that that, you know, this, um, exemptions on, I think, on the grounds of age, um, there's an exemption relating to genuine occupational [01:02:00] qualification those kinds of things. Um, but just in your opinion, are they quite broad, or are they fairly narrowly defined? They feel, or they they're defined so that there's an ambiguous There's room for interpretation. Yeah, so they are quite bored, I guess. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Um, representative, [01:02:30] our region. And just in that dispute process that I called in to try to resolve disputes without having. But it's not about the process that might be useful just from years of experience. Mhm. Um, I guess it's, [01:03:00] uh, in terms of dispute resolution. It's sort of creating some sort of safe space, Um, and some sort of trust in the process, I guess. And yeah. And just ensuring that both parties really get the opportunity to to speak and to to say how it's really [01:03:30] impacted on them, you know, like on their personal being, how what has been done has had an impact so that the other person get gets to hear that rather than, um, just the sort of angry reaction they get to hear the hurt. Um, so, yeah, I don't know how helpful that is, but creating a safe space and, um, allowing the parties to really to really express themselves is really important. [01:04:00] And I think that probably culturally, there are, uh, those kinds of mechanisms in in a lot of places, anyway, you know, um, mediation, I think, uh, is a Western kind of concept that has roots from a long time ago in various cultures. So it's not really anything new in some ways. Any more questions? [01:04:30] Yes. It's not the word, the opportunity to use the cultural forms of mediation. I think it's also just a point to note that in well, for the Pacific, for example, it's not all that inclusive. And if you are to have mediation, it has to be inclusive, inclusive in the sense that gender, you know, um, sexual orientation is is taken into account. The the the forms of mediation that currently exist [01:05:00] in a lot of the Pacific island culture is not really that all inclusive. So just my word of caution. Really? Thank you. Are there any other comments? Um, from from audience members in relating to the presentations as well? Yeah, at the back. Hi. Uh, I'm a trans activist from India. So in my country, I have a friend who is a trans, [01:05:30] and she adopted a child. But her, uh, ID shows that she's a female. That is the reason she was able to adopt a child. If her identity was like a trans or something else, she couldn't be able to. So my question is, what is the situation is is in New Zealand. If any chance a woman can adopt a child or if she can adopt a child, what are the consequences she has to face or had? Did you see any case? I mean, reported to your commission so far, I think [01:06:00] the trans adoption. So are there any exemptions or the adoption issue in New Zealand is, uh, the adoption act is 1955. So the the laws around a adoption are pretty old in terms of, um, adoption. I know that, um, up until recently, there was a court case recently in which it was decided that a de facto heterosexual [01:06:30] couple could adopt, but it still remains. Um, that same sex couples cannot adopt single people I think can adopt now whether a single trans woman could adopt. I don't know the answer to that, but I can find out I don't I. I don't see why in terms of single people being able to adopt, I don't see why not on the face of it, but [01:07:00] I don't know. So I'll find out, Um, if I can add as well, um, just to provide the Australian context as well. So, um, in four states in Australia, same sex couples are eligible to adopt, um, singles have already always been allowed to adopt, and heterosexual de facto couples have always been able to adopt as well. And there is no specific discrimination against trans people as singles adopting and now as a same sex couple. If you were both identifying the same way, [01:07:30] there would be no issue around adoption. The only time it arises is faith based exemptions. So where you went to a adoption provider and you sought to, um, to adopt a child or foster a child And they said, Sorry, we don't, um, you know, cater for same sex couples or trans couples, gender diverse couples and so on. Um, that's the only time there would be an allowance of discrimination because of the exemption. I. I think it's probably the same [01:08:00] here that a trans woman can adopt, but I'll check it out. Yeah, There has been a successful. Yeah, there has been a successful gay adoption in New Zealand. Nigel's, for example. Um um, just reflecting on one of the things you said before, um, about how low the figures were. I know when I was, um, just doing some reading for yesterday morning. Um, I was again really [01:08:30] shocked by the figures from Mark Hendrickson's Lavender Island survey, which demonstrated that only 42% of all gay couples in New Zealand were out to everyone they knew. And the figure of sin of single people was about 29% who were out to everyone they knew. And I think that possibly even taking a complaint is a scary place for the majority of, [01:09:00] um uh, of of GL BT I people in New Zealand, you know, and and I'm just thinking Mark's figures are only about five years old, I think, and I don't think we've had a, you know, extraordinary transformation in that period. And that may be some kind of explanatory factor behind these. Thanks. Marilyn. [01:09:30] Any further questions? Um, well, thank you said, can we thank you all for coming? Um, we've finished on time. Actually, we finished early, so I'm not sure if the afternoon tea has arrived, but it should be outside. So feel free to go and enjoy your long extended afternoon tea.

IRN: 326
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_ilott_theatre_session_7.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004138
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089432
TITLE: Session 7, Gender, Sexuality and Rights
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Boris Dittrich; Nicola Surtees; Senthorun Raj; Susan Hawthorne
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Boris Dittrich; Nicola Surtees; Senthorun Raj; Susan Hawthorne; Wellington Town Hall; Yogyakarta Principles (2006); activism; gender identity; human rights; sexuality
DATE: 18 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the Gender, Sexuality and Rights session.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Good afternoon, everybody. Um, all our speakers are present. And thank you very much for joining us in this session. Um, we have only one hour from 4 to 5. And, um, the people who asked me to chair this session, uh, asked me to really highlight the fact that at five o'clock, some of us need to leave, have other engagements. So we really need And the one hour and after five o'clock, it's over, Unfortunately, because it's a very [00:00:30] interesting session about gender, sexuality and rights. The first speaker we have is Susan Hawthorne from Australia, and the human rights of lesbians are rarely recognised. And until recently, lesbians have been among the few persecuted peoples not to be the subject of a human rights campaign. In the literature on women, lesbians are a footnote. If they are lucky in the literature [00:01:00] of LGBTI, lesbians are sidelined, and Susan will describe to us a range of ways in which the cultural, social, civil, and political human rights of lesbians are violated. How lesbian refugees may gain recognition of their persecution and how the specific needs of the lesbians might be met. Susan, may I ask you to start and you have 15 minutes. And after 12 13, I start waving at you. [00:01:30] Please, go ahead. Um, this paper is, uh, inspired by the work of lesbians in countries around the world. And, uh, there have been enormous struggles, and, uh, Gitanjali Misra described some of those in India this morning, and and I have to say that the campaign following the fire film was one of the successful ones, One of the few successful ones. [00:02:00] My decision some 35 odd years ago, uh, to come out as a as a lesbian, change my life irrevocably and for the better, I wouldn't have it any other way. Um, I I did enter a world that is largely invisible to, uh, many other people in society. Uh, So what I see what follows is what I see through my lesbian lens. Uh, there's a lack of respect for lesbians, uh, distortions of lesbian experience, [00:02:30] human rights, abuses of lesbians and extreme violence and murder perpetrated against lesbians as individuals and and as a group, both by individuals and by state actors across the political spectrum. In my original a, uh, abstract, I said that there had been no successful campaigns for lesbian human rights. However, in the last few months there have been two. And so I'm going to talk about those two, campaigns. [00:03:00] Uh, because I think they show us something useful about why it's so difficult to have campaigns for lesbian, human rights, corrective rape and shame. In late 2010, I received an email about Millicent Geier, a South African lesbian who'd been subjected to corrective rape by a man. That she who whom she knew the image of her bruised face and body as well as her recounting of what [00:03:30] had happened, created the momentum for a global campaign against corrective rape. It's an abusive term that refers to the bat, the rape and battery of lesbians to cure them of lesbian existence. The man who raped, beat and attempted to strangle Milli Gei has said, I know you're a lesbian. You're not a man you think you are, But I'm going to show you you are a woman. I'm going to make you pregnant. I'm going to kill you. So Millicent is not the first [00:04:00] South African lesbian to be attacked in this way. Uh, in 2008, Uh, Judy Sier, who was a star of the South African women's football team, was also gang raped and murdered. More than 100 and 40,000 people signed the petition to uphold the constitutional rights of lesbians to state protection. And South Africa is the only country in the world to have constitutional protection on the basis of sexual orientation. [00:04:30] But the list of violence is not new. So while I'm pleased to know that finally these violations are coming to light, it's a very long wait. Um, how how is it possible that violence against lesbians is such a non headline? And if you actually Google Millicent Geier, you find that she's not in the mainstream papers. She's on blogs and, uh, newsletters and email lists and things like that. [00:05:00] Is corrective rape a new occurrence? No, it's not. Uh, in 2007, C Leasa and Salame Maso Masu were both murdered. Uh, in, uh, 2004. Fannie Anne Eddie, uh, and a lesbian activist from Sierra Leone was found dead and had been working in the offices of the Sierra Leone Lesbian and Gay Association. Not long before her death, she made the following plea to [00:05:30] the UN Commission on Human Rights. Silence creates vulnerability. You members of the Commission on Human Rights can break the silence. You can acknowledge that we exist throughout Africa and on every continent, and that human rights violations based on sexual orientation or gender identity are committed every day. You can help us combat those violations and achieve our full rights and freedoms in every society, including [00:06:00] my beloved Sierra Leone. In 1995 who was a lesbian activist and a member of gays and lesbians of Zimbabwe, otherwise known as girls Uh, was attacked at the Zimbabwe Book Fair. I. I feel this because I almost went to the Zimbabwe Book Fair that year. And I, I wish I had been there to protest what was going on. Um, and the thing is that if lesbians are [00:06:30] attacked, it is a signal. Uh, they are the perpetrators. They sorry they are the the canaries in the mind in the mind. And if perpetrators get away with it, other attacks are likely to follow. And we've certainly seen that in Zimbabwe. So we need to be protecting every attack on lesbians. It's a sign of hatred in the social system if lesbians are not protected. And by that I mean, if people don't protest, then people who don't fit some other social dimension will [00:07:00] will not be safe. Either Keep your sister lesbian safe and watch the effect it has on the whole society is my view. Also in Zimbabwe in the 19 eighties, Tina Machida, uh, was violated at the instigation of her parents in an effort to cure her of her lesbian existence, she wrote. They locked me in a room and brought him to me every day to rape me so I would fall pregnant and be forced to marry [00:07:30] him. This they did to me until I was pregnant. The other problem that lesbians face is is that they are often at risk, uh, in prisons and other things both, uh, for rape by the by the, uh, oppressors, uh, and also by the other people in detention. So, in prisons and in mental institutions, lesbians are very frequently raped. They are raped, sometimes by guards and sometimes [00:08:00] by fellow inmates. Uh, and, uh, obviously, uh, heterosexual women are also subjected to rape, but the rape of heterosexual women is not framed as punishment, whereas for lesbians it is in 1976 in Chile. Uh, Consuelo Rivera Fuentes was tortured by the Pinochet regime. The tortures implied that her torture is her all her fault, that which is not unusual in situations of torture. If only [00:08:30] she would do what is best for her, she would not have to suffer. In fact, he the torturer will help help her by raping her by showing her what a real man can do for her. How what she needs is a good fuck from real men, the same justification as that given by Millicent Geier's rapist. Um however, many decades earlier. So to the question, is law the answer? I say it is not enough. Some governments are are also supported [00:09:00] in their homophobia by religious ideologies and an Iranian lesbian. Nazanin says the punishment for lesbians is execution. And then she goes on to explain why the families don't actually protest about these executions, why they remain silent and she says it is to save face for the families involved. It is a cause for disgrace. So rape, torture, silent shame and hatred all combined [00:09:30] so that No-one ever hears of the violations of lesbians. Human rights. It's invisible. It's as if as as if it doesn't exist, just like lesbians don't exist. Shame, I think, takes on huge shape for lesbians. Even the most political of lesbians suffers from shame. It comes in many guises as silence within families as Nazanin and Tina Maidan note. When lesbians put their needs last in political campaigns, [00:10:00] that, too is shame. Because who will support a political campaign if lesbians, if out lesbians political loud lesbians are its leaders, so just keep quiet until the revolution is over. There's also the problem of linguistic silence and lesbian invisibility. And uh, an example from India, UH, is indicated by the omission of the W word lesbian from the glossary of an otherwise Very [00:10:30] Useful Handbook, a book called A Guide to Your Rights. Legal Handbook for Sexual Minorities in India. The glossary does include bisexual, homosexual and transgender. I point out, however, that this is not exclusive to in India. Indian organisations since the National Women's Studies Association in the USA in 2005 had precisely the same kind of omission from its list of keywords for conference presentation. The [00:11:00] key word list included sexuality, the body identity, homosexuality and transgender, but not lesbian. And and I. I copped a lot when I pointed this out. So it it wasn't as if it was just a an accidental thing or they went Oh, sorry. Um, rather I. I was attacked for pointing this out. So like Judas, I think people and organisations de deny their association with lesbians. Another issue is the fear [00:11:30] of the word lesbian as bad for humanitarian campaigns. The second recent successful campaign, uh, was on behalf of, uh, Brenda Nada NAMI Naga Sorry, a a Ugandan lesbian living in the UK. She was due to be deported on the 29th of January, and around 60,000 people signed the petition to put a stop to her deportation on the grounds that she was in danger of her losing [00:12:00] her life. The danger was very sadly reinforced by the murder of gay activist David Kato. Just two days earlier, in 2007, when Iranian lesbian pega Emma Bakir was about to be deported from Britain, there was an email campaign that stayed her deportation. So, uh, these were two rare, uh, instances where, uh, lesbian refugee activists [00:12:30] did have some success. Oh, dear. I'm already running out. Um, there are also problems in in terms of lesbians, cultural and social rights. And, uh, I think this is something I would like to talk about in the question time. Perhaps, uh, how How can we, um, stand up and say, You know, we lesbians need to be visible. We [00:13:00] need to be able to speak for ourselves. We need to have our own campaigns and then not be told. Oh, but, you know, you're making it hard for us by some other other group in the GL BT IQ community. And, um, I the last time I spoke about this at a similar conference, um, in the summing up at the end of the conference, there was either a reference to my paper A as being about separatism, or it wasn't talked [00:13:30] about at all. So, and I don't know which of those it was because I could never find out. Uh, so I hope that we've come, um, some way further, Uh, since then and I think for me, uh, a an an important issue is that for old old lesbians? That's people like me. Um, there there is a kind of double discrimination happening because, um, if we stand up and talk about our lesbian needs, many [00:14:00] of us who are doing so came, uh, to this movement to this social political positions when we were young. Um, we're now quite, um, old relative. Um And, uh, So there's also an ageism factor. I think in there. And I've I, uh, was, uh, part of a A group that was, um, set up as a a women's circus for women who had [00:14:30] been victims of sexual assault. And when the transgender said that they wanted to come, the whole thing fell apart. And I think that the the the most useful thing to do is to say, let's respect some of those spaces. Uh, in in India in 2004, I gave a workshop on the torture of lesbians and my, uh, lesbian only women Only, uh, thing was not respected. Uh, whereas the Muslim [00:15:00] Women's Session on sexuality was, and I think I want to be accorded the same kind of respect that other other groups, uh, get. I also just want to refer briefly to a film that was pulled from the uh, San Francisco film um, film festival a couple of years ago called the Gender cater and the the film was pulled because it was, um, a number of transgender, uh, activists said that they found it [00:15:30] offensive, but there was no consideration given to the lesbians who thought it was a really interesting political movie. Um, about the forced gender reassignment, uh, as a kind of science fiction, um, movie. And so there were two very different political positions and only one was listened to. So are there any answers? Well, consider the question. Who [00:16:00] is the human in human rights? And I think there are some things that we can do. We can use the word lesbian frequently. I think it's important not to silence lesbians even if, uh, somebody disagrees with us. Uh, I think it's far more important to argue, rather than to boycott that to accord lesbians the same human rights as others and not to put lesbians in [00:16:30] the too hard basket to wait until after the revolution has been and gone. Because then it won't happen, Um, and to not contribute to the atmosphere of fear or bad publicity and also to be proud of the lesbians in your life. Do you want to conclude so One last thing, I think. Who among the Le the non lesbian community will stand up and voice their horror at the human rights abuses [00:17:00] of lesbians? Will it be gay men and transgender people who share much of the oppression but from whom support is so conditional? Will it be bisexual and queer community who claim an openness to sexual orientation but so often let down lesbians? Will it be the heterosexual women? Or are lesbians just too dicey to risk making an alliance with, or will it be left to the heterosexual men who have nothing to fear except themselves? Now I do have [00:17:30] some guarded hope for the future. The information available on the Internet is much deeper than it was when I began my research in this area in 2002. But as I've made clear in this paper, there's a lot more to be done, and we really need some more successful campaigns for lesbians. Human rights. Thank you. Thank you very much. Um, we agreed with the speakers that questions and answers [00:18:00] will be taking place after the three presentations. So now I would like to give the floor to Nicola Certes from New Zealand and her presentation is called The Legal Recognition of Parent Child Relationships in New Zealand Family Law. And while you are searching for your presentation, I might as well read what's here. Or do you want to start immediately? OK, given the time we were good to see you all here. [00:18:30] Thanks for coming today. So I'm going to talk about the legal recognition of parent child relationships in New Zealand family law and particularly focusing on the positive and negative impacts for lesbian mothers, gay fathers and their Children. The study that this presentation draws from was a small scale qualitative study that I'm now further in with my PhD work. Uh, we were interested in creating, looking at how lesbians [00:19:00] and gay men were creating and maintaining family. We looked at successes and challenges, um, for those men and women in that process and we found that family and social policy isn't fully responsive to some family forms and parenting arrangements. So that's what I will endeavour to show you with with the data I have here today, 20 interviews with 33 parents and [00:19:30] 19 families. So as I said it, it was a small scale initial study. Um, with my PhD work, I've now been I have finished collecting data and I've worked with, uh, around 70 lesbian or gay parents, none of whom were, uh we were part of this study. So I've really managed to find quite a large pool of of, um, new lesbian and gay people to work with. And you can see we were interested in, [00:20:00] um, what daily life looked like, what their their hopes and struggles were what their, uh, supports them, What didn't support them and successes and challenges, and so on. Now, in terms of of legal roles in New Zealand in relation to parent child relationships, we've always had quite progressive, uh, family law in New Zealand. We are very fortunate. But like many other countries, of course, the legal [00:20:30] rules that determine parent child relationships are lagging behind the diversity and family structure. And that's partly because of social change, but partly because of the growth of reproductive technologies. And when we think about lesbians and gay men wanting to, uh have Children from within the context of their relationships. They need a third party. They need a third procreative actor. Um, and when I think or when I'm talking [00:21:00] about reproductive technologies, I'm talking about the full continuum from low tech do it yourself home insemination, for example, right through to things like open retrieval and in vitro fertilisation, which obviously requires the assistance of a clinic and surrogacy and so on. One of the things that parents uh, conveyed to us was that the law could be both a facilitator and a barrier [00:21:30] in the process of establishing boundaries between these women and men and the third reproductive Party. And I'll talk a little bit more about that shortly. I don't know if you're familiar with the Status of Children Amendment Act. Part two is important for lesbians and gay men, and this is the act that determines the legal status of Children in relation to their parents. And Part two deals with, um, those Children [00:22:00] who are conceived through reproductive technologies or specified reproductive procedures. So any woman who conceives with donated gamuts whether that's an egg or sperm and delivers a child regardless of her genetic relationship with that child and her partner, regardless of whether her partner is a woman or a man on the proviso that she or he agreed to the procedure, [00:22:30] the method of conception of the child's legal parents and where, where those two people agree and fill in the appropriate paperwork, UH, they become any resulting child's legal parents, and at the same time the act extinguishes the donors parenthood. And that's irrespective of the wishes of all parties concerned. So the donor has no rights, responsibilities [00:23:00] or liabilities in respect of the child. Now, for lesbian couples who are wanting to have a child with the assistance of either a known or an unknown donor, and they're intending to take up that option by the demon rules of Part two to become the child's legal parents, then this, in effect is putting a helpful barrier in place between them and between the donor. So for those parents [00:23:30] who those lesbian couples who are wanting to share the central parenting relationship from within a single household, this is useful for them. But research is showing that a number of lesbian couples are now choosing known men who, uh, they wish to not only act as a sperm donor, but to have some involvement in some capacity in in future child's life. Um, and in those cases, men [00:24:00] are donating on that basis on the understanding that they will have some, that they'll be known as a dad to the child and that they'll have some role, some fathering role in that child's life. The child might or might not live primarily with the woman, but there's there's some agreement there between all three parties that that the father will be involved. And so in that case, these kinds this, um, act as problematic because the couples are are illegal legal parents. But the [00:24:30] donor who, with the couple's agreement expects to be able to be a dad and and take up some form of parenting responsibilities, um, has is without protection and essence well without the protection of legal parenthood that the couple have. So with that as as the context for you, I'll share some data now both about the benefits of the legal recognition of relationships between lesbian, non birth mothers and [00:25:00] their Children. And there are many benefits, and and the non birth moms were very articulate in conveying those. And then I'll move on and we'll look at, uh, some of the costs to men. This legal recognitions of relationships between lesbian, non birth mothers and their Children have been possible since July 2005, and that's been achieved through the granting of parenthood at birth through the Status of Children Amendment Act. [00:25:30] The moms that we talked to really viewed it as a form of insurance. It offered them some protection. It gave them rights. It secured the rights to involve themselves in all aspects of parenting, daily care, decision making, uh, decisions about development of the child, about health and education. And, of course, it also protects them for the duration of that child's life. It's a permanent, enduring relationship between those parents and Children, [00:26:00] So parents said that this was very empowering for them. So here's Renee, non birth mum to twin daughters, and she's saying, You know, I'm dealing with other people. It gives me confidence. I do have a standing. They can't just undermine my position and say, Well, who are you to come here and say that? Mom's also talked about the ways that it equalised their parental status, [00:26:30] regardless of who was the biologically connected mother So we had comments like We're equal parents. I feel like mum and I always have. It's just so balanced, really. I'm mum and your mummy And the another benefit was the way in which it enabled the sharing, if you like, of parenting work, despite resistance from others outside [00:27:00] of the home. So some non birth mothers really did find that they weren't considered real mothers legit, legitimate mothers and knowing that they had that legal protection protection made a difference to them. They could sign, um, permission slips at the early childhood centre and and fill in the enrollment forms and and go along to different things at school and be fully involved. Um, if the child was in hospital, they knew that they had all the protections they needed to [00:27:30] make decisions about their child's health care. Chloe is talking about this in terms of the idea of being able to function fully. Now, if you're going to be a parent, you need to be able to take up all those bits of of the job, so legal recognition really enhanced security, [00:28:00] Anica says. I actually demanded that security, so she was thinking ahead to possible need for disaster and recovery planning. Things may be going pear shaped. She was clear. She wanted rights. She was the non birth mom, uh, to she and her partner had, um, two girls, and they were parenting in conjunction with a gay man who had been their donor. Renee again Just talking about the difference. Um, [00:28:30] it had for her knowing that she had that security, that her name was on the birth certificates. One final benefit was that the non birth mother's rights were understood to extend beyond the couple relationship. Uh, with Children's between the non birth mothers and the birth mothers. So should couple relationships end [00:29:00] either through a separation or through the birth mom dying then that the non birth moms knew that their rights couldn't simply be dismissed? Um, talked about friends, lesbian friends who split up, and the non birth mother wasn't on the birth certificate, presumably because they'd had their Children prior to this piece of legislation. So there was obviously some issues there [00:29:30] for those women as they worked out how to manage, um, care of the Children. And Kate had heard about a lesbian couple with the biological mom, had died unexpectedly, and the parents of the biological mother took the child, the grandchild, to Australia, and she and her partner, Heather, were just very frightened that that might happen three minutes. So in terms of the costs of [00:30:00] limited legal recognition of relationships between donor dads and the Children, and I'm using donor dads loosely, many men wouldn't necessarily adopt that terminology themselves. I'm simply meaning they're, uh, men who have donated sperm on the understanding they'd be known as dads and have some role in Children's lives. Their parenting participation is really reliant on the the the continued desire of the Children's mother to support this. And if the mothers change, um, [00:30:30] have a change of heart about the man's involvement, then the relationships with the Children become insecure. Well, they are insecure and vulnerable. And I'll let you read here what happened for Caleb, who has a biological son but has seen him very rarely, [00:31:00] so he'd had a very tough experience. He and his partner, they had he had a biological son. He and his partner, expected to be involved, had donated on that basis. But we very much shut out guardianship and donor agreements do give some rights to donor dads, but they are limited. The first is limited in scope, and the second is non enforceable. So nothing gives the same kind of protection that Legal Parenthood does. Who [00:31:30] stands to gain and who to lose? Well, as I indicated earlier, lesbian couples, obviously who share that parent central parenting relationship, stand to gain donor dads where the central parenting relationship with Children over three or more parents are spread across, Multiple households tend to lose. Here's Kirk just talking about the legal side of things and the advice he'd had from a lawyer. Kirk went ahead and, [00:32:00] uh, is parenting his Children alongside the moms, and that's going well for them at the moment. But he's very conscious of his lack of protection. And, of course, the existing in bi bison law that a child shouldn't have more than two legal parents dismisses the reality of some Children's families. And if you think back to Caleb, um, you know he has a son, and the law dismisses his reality, and he's denied a legally [00:32:30] recognised relationship with his father, who, despite both this and despite opposition from the mothers, wishes to know his son and to parent him in some capacity alongside the mothers. So I think those situations change or highlight the need for a change to the law. So finally, in terms of recommendations, a donor giving gamuts to a couple on the basis that he or she will jointly parenting any ensuring child with the couple with everybody's agreement, be able to become a legal [00:33:00] parent. And sometimes that will mean there'll be three legal parents. This isn't a new recommendation. The New Zealand Law Commission actually made this recommendation a couple of years ago, and the Labour Party at the time felt that while it was possibly valid, further consultation would need to be carried out and so on and so forth. So of course it hasn't happened, and that would help address the gaps in the recognition of some of the realities of of the families in the study and also the families I'm now working with for my PhD research. [00:33:30] But it also meet the needs of heterosexual couples who are using, uh, third parties subject to their wishes in this regard. So it may well have a broader application, and I'd just like to acknowledge the family commission and the other researchers in in this project for their work and the commission for their support. Thank you. Thank you very much. I'd like to give the floor to San from Australia, [00:34:00] and he's going to talk about clearing refugee law. Thank you. Um, so, uh, my talk today comes, uh, as part of a broader project of mine researching the way sexuality and persecution and the narratives associated with that get constructed in administrative and judicial decision making in Australia. Um, you know, basically some of the key questions are what is what counts [00:34:30] as sexuality. What constitutes persecution? Who is the refugee? And these questions assume relevance to the law in very interesting and distinctive ways. Precisely because they're so ambiguous, they invite a lot of theoretical scope. They invite a lot of, you know, different kinds of knowledge, and they they go to the very heart of representation. You know, what does it mean to have a sexual identity? What does it mean to have a very particular form of persecution? And [00:35:00] so the way Australian law has sought to understand some of these challenges has been quite problematic in that they've often attributed very narrow, very western, very gay, male centric, middle class, stereotyped ideas of what constitutes sex in order to construct this universal identity that every applicant who seeks asylum must fit in with in within that rubric. Otherwise, they're not a genuine or they're a experimental [00:35:30] or a confused um, asylum seeker. And of course, for us, you know, discussing the kind of broad spectrums of sexuality, particularly from individuals from diaspora displaced backgrounds. These questions are extremely problematic because what's at issue is not simply, you know, a theoretical debate, but actual material lives which depend on the, you know, the validity of a particular judicial or administrative decision. [00:36:00] And so thinking about the broader context of, uh, refugee law is quite important. So, you know, refugee law comes from the, uh, convention relating to the status of refugees, uh, in 1951 and so that convention to which Australia is a signatory and has ratified, has now been trans was transformed into, uh, migration laws into the migration act. And under that, um, particular provision, um, Article one a of the Refugee Convention, an asylum [00:36:30] seeker may seek, um, protection on the basis of race, nationality, political opinion, social group or religious, Um, or religious conviction. Um, and since 1992 Australia's Common Law has recognised that sexual orientation or rather homosexuality, which is, which is the term used, is valid under the category of social group. And so this has really broadened discussions around. What does it mean for a sexual minority to be understood in a judicial framework [00:37:00] as a social group and basically, um, it the the The judicial reasoning from the case of Morato and the Minister for Immigration, which was the decisive case on this issue, noted that there needs to be a universal characteristic or a shared attribute that, uh, all in individual, that can be held to be common to this particular category of people. And so as a result, the administrative decisions have sought to identify a concept of sexual [00:37:30] identity that is highly narrow. Um, and that privilege is very western, very kind of, you know, um, Oriental consumer based approaches to sexuality that rely on discerning how many sexual partners a particular applicant has had. Or you know how many clubs that they've visited or their knowledge about particular cultural icons like Madonna. And, you know, while this seems quite ludicrous for a lot of us who come from diverse cultural backgrounds. [00:38:00] This is considered to be, you know, apt decision making in the context of Australia. Um, and I just wanna go through a a particular case here where this particular applicant is made under or is understood through this knowledge of intimacy. And this is what the decision maker had to say. The applicant gave evidence that he had not entered into any other long-term relationship with a male or a female. He was not aware of gay networks in Bangladesh and he had not [00:38:30] tried to find any. He did not frequent gay parks. His behaviour points to a capacity to live within the norms of his own society, culture and RG, where he has a home of family and employment. So effectively, the commentary seems to suggest that your lack of visibility in a particular gay scene, um discredits your your status as a as a as a refugee and effectively, the assumption is that as a part as a as a gay [00:39:00] man, you are required to frequent public spaces. Um, this pays no attention to the fact that, uh, you know, participation in a public scene is, you know, determined on one there being a scene in the first place, defining what that scene is, and probably to the decision maker. It's in Australia. It's something akin to Oxford Street, which clearly bang needs to have. And three, assumes the economic mobility of an asylum seeker to engage in those forms of consumption and failing [00:39:30] to acknowledge the fact that you know, not only is visibility uh, a question of, you know, um, punitive, um, a question of, you know, fear, harassment and violence. But it's also a question of Does a person have the means or ability to actually go to a club or go and find a community that they can participate in? And so the the terminology is are not settled. Homosexual orientation also emerges. So the fact that the applicant has not had you know more than one sexual partner or has only ever [00:40:00] had a relationship with the person of the only one person of the same sex, you know, leads to forms of reasoning that suggest that their sexual orientation is not settled so effectively We we begin a kind of a a judicial narrative where the only way to claim valid a sexual identity as a gay man in this particular instance is to be highly promiscuous is to have many sexual partners in order to fulfil that kind of stereotype that, you know, gay [00:40:30] men are highly sexually promiscuous and that have multiple sexual partners. And that is an authentic experience that all men should necessarily have. And these questions of visibility, um, not only highlight, you know, racial or diaspora issues, but they also highlight gendered ones, particularly because for queer women, um, its public issues of public participation are are very much different, largely because it's not only a narrative of, uh, sexuality [00:41:00] based depression that they're dealing with, but also a gendered, one in which much of the persecution they do experience is framed in a domestic sphere. And because asylum law is very much focused on identifying public experiences of persecution, or states have demonstrated a failure to protect um on the basis of people who are sexual and gender minorities, a lot of the the determinations of what is persecution rely on identifying public forms of persecution. And that's how a lot of anti discrimination laws [00:41:30] also work. The problem with that public private division, though, is it Privileges men, uh, and undermines the experience of a lot of women who a lot of their persecution, is often of a domestic character. Whether that's coercive marriages, Uh uh, domestic violence, rape and that kind of thing. And, um, there is an interesting case of an applicant, a female applicant from Mongolia whose experience of domestic violence and the public speculation she endured of her desires as outlined [00:42:00] as follows, um, by the decision maker, I accept that the applicant has a girlfriend and that she has had a close relationship with this friend since a particular year. I have doubts as to whether their relationship is a lesbian relationship as the evidence to how how they first met and their lack of involvement in in the gay scene. Um, sorry in the lesbian community, Rather is of concern. So the applicant gave little little details of the nature of their relationship, and I felt she was [00:42:30] being evasive as to the real basis of their friendship. Despite claiming she was a lesbian, she had no other contacts with lesbian groups or other lesbians. After her initial contact with her partner so effectively, we see the characterization here that the relationship between two women in a domestic context is immediately relegated to platonic, so it's immediately friendship. The absence of any kind of penetrative sexual act renders female intimacy into that space. Um, and so it's not. It's already disbelieved as as a lesbian [00:43:00] relationship. And again we see that underlying assumption that there needs to be that public narrative. You know, where is your participation in a public community? You know? Where are your lesbian friends? You know what communities, what clubs do you go to? And a lot of this reasoning in here is and and effectively, you know, this applicant, um, is granted asylum, but not because of her sexual orientation, but because of the patriarchal violence that she endures through through the fact that she's married [00:43:30] and that her husband abuses her. So through that narrative, which has quite a considerable currency in Australian law, you know, she is granted asylum, Um, but in terms of the actual basis of her application, which is on the fact that she was a queer woman and that her intimacy was, you know, prohibited and and treated as, um, you know, and subject to violence and harassment was disbelieved. And so this is this. This is an ongoing issue for a lot of cases. Um, for both, uh, you know, queer [00:44:00] men and queer women. And I use the term queer. Um, and I use it more broadly in my research because terms like gay and lesbian have a very ethnocentric quality to them and a lot of the vocabulary that we use in terms of gay and lesbian, um is often through kind of a Western context, an Anglo, specifically anglophone context. And a lot of people who come from diaspora communities, whether in India, whether in Bangladesh, whether in China, don't necessarily or or sub Saharan Africa don't necessarily use the language of gay and lesbian, [00:44:30] they may engage in same sex erotic practises. They may have, you know, forms of attachment and intimacy. We would call lesbian or gay, but they don't refer to it as that. And part of my research is really about giving voice to the narratives and experiences of people who are effectively denied a voice. So not only do they escape an experience of persecution or displacement, thank you but they now arrive in a context where their voice are still being colonised. [00:45:00] They're effectively being colonised through a much more insidious way. That is, through the kind of knowledge practises that I use to understand their experiences so effectively it's you don't fit into my narrative that is my Western gay male centric, you know, consumer based narrative of, you know, multiple sexual partners, participation in a scene, and as a result, your sexual identity is inauthentic and the lack of any cultural or diaspore sensitivity the lack of contextual kind of focus [00:45:30] around, you know, the experiences of sexual minorities, um, in different geographic regions. And the way those experiences are not only intersected by sexuality but by race by class, by religion, by faith, by ability, by age has led to these really problematic decisions effectively paradoxical decisions. So you can read one decision where an applicant is invisible, they don't participate in the community at all, and this effectively leads a lot of [00:46:00] you know, applicants later on to then script their claims to fit the rubric. So they join up new Mardi Gras, and then they go out on Oxford Street a lot and then they, you know, effectively, you know, effectively think they need to take pornographic photos of themselves in sexual acts in order to be considered legitimate asylum seekers, and as a result, they're too visible. So the, uh, the decision makers then deny them asylum. On the basis that you're obviously descript in your stories, [00:46:30] you're just you've just come here joined all these groups to prove your game. We don't believe you're gay, um, or lesbian or or queer or or whatever. And as a result, you know, there's that trap. You're either invisible cos you don't participate in a community or you don't have multiple sexual partners, and you haven't really done anything or you're too visible because you've, you know, joined up all these clubs. And you're just now trying to prove that you're gay. So effectively, the kind of the epistemological challenge to use that word is there's [00:47:00] no space there. There's no space to claim asylum in a culturally historically appropriate way, because effectively, you're caught out. Either way, you're either too gay or lesbian or you're not gay or lesbian enough, and so effectively, I think we need to start. And while my my research focuses specifically on Australia. A lot of the conceptual challenges are transferrable to jurisdictions across the world, like the UK, the US, uh, Canada and so forth where we need to see the category of sexuality [00:47:30] opened up in ways that really pays attention to cultural difference. And we need to open up the kind of processes of decision making, particular methodologies, the reliance on evidence and the way the narratives are interpreted in order to do justice to the voice of asylum seekers and to give them the kind of credibility and the and the time that they deserve. Um, so thank you. Thank you very, very much. We have 10 minutes for questions and answers. [00:48:00] Yes, please. And could you speak up a little so that everybody can hear you? So things, the things that no. Yeah. Susan, maybe you could, uh, repeat a question as well. Um, Barry just asked me if I would include the lesbians murdered in Tel Aviv. And if I knew their names and the numbers who were killed? No, I don't know. I'm sorry. Do you? No. [00:48:30] Um sorry. When was was this the one that the one last year? Yes, um, I know about it, but no, I don't know the details. Um, sorry. I should have gone after that one. Other questions. It's difficult to see from here. Um, if not, then I would like to ask all three of you a question. What do you want in relation, Of course, [00:49:00] to your presentation. What do you want to get out of this conference? What would you like to see To be a final conclusion, for instance? And Susan, you alluded to that because she said I was at another conference, and then I didn't hear anything from my presentation. What would, in your view, would be the best for this conference to conclude, I would like, uh, lesbians to be, you know, part of the discussion. Because it's very [00:49:30] easy sometimes to just, um, get the lesbian, um, history and activism and so forth Sidelined. Uh, it is important to be able to join together and to have, uh, joint conversations. And it is useful to have LGBTI Q et cetera, Um, as a kind of shorthand, but we should not use it as a kind of lazy way of going. Oh, I don't [00:50:00] really want to talk about the the the the G or the I or the T or the L or whatever, you know, like it's It shouldn't be used as a way of excluding and And what I have experienced is that it's often used as a way of excluding lesbians. That's my experience as a lesbian and as an older lesbian. Um, a A. And as I said, it is a kind of double thing there about age. But II I would also like I, I think what, what you [00:50:30] were saying, then said, Uh, I'm really pleased that you said that stuff, um, about the way in which, um, sexuality is framed within the the refugee thing. Because I mean, one of the things about a a lesbian seeking refugee status is that often the most, um, the most. The the best thing she can do to protect herself in her country of origin may be to get married. So, you know, I mean that if that then undermines her application [00:51:00] and makes it impossible, then you know it's a very difficult situation. So there are many ways of different groups being invisible, and I think we inclusion should not become Grey. Uh, you know, we we need to remember that, you know, there's there's a multiplicity to to us. Thank you, Nicola. May I ask you and maybe you can stand behind a microphone. Is it good? [00:51:30] Ok, I'd like to see, uh, three parents able to be able to be named and law where all parties agreed. So I'd like to see that back on the government's agenda for progression. Um, as I said previously, it was on the last Labour governments agenda Practically have to imagine National putting it on there. But, uh, I think that would be something Well, with lobbying for that would really benefit Children of families [00:52:00] and would benefit parents in those families. And I think, as I said, potential application beyond where People using technology through. So that that that's what I like. So so we will need to buy. Do you think it's politically very difficult to get that result [00:52:30] to recognise that it was an issue at the end that that there was a worthy and valid concern that had been taken to them and express to their I'm not sure that national work See, But if you look at that issue from the best interest of the child, then it might be easier to [00:53:00] judges who make those decisions to see it in the child's best interests. I don't know, but yes, that that that is one way of arguing that because it's not just the parents on us. The Children of a smart Children that makes us to all of those parents [00:53:30] doesn't take them. Thank you. And what would you like to get out of this conference? Just Yeah, just following from, Uh um what my colleagues have just, uh, uh, mentioned, I think part of the the way forward is opening up spaces for discussing narratives around, kinship around, sexuality around, family around intimacy. Um, and I think what's really useful about the law is it provides, you know, a regulatory framework. But [00:54:00] often that regulatory framework is too, you know, too narrowly defined. Or it involves a very specific, normative idea of what things ought to look like. And as a result, all spaces for discussion are foreclosed. And so I think, moving forward, we really need to highlight that. You know, there is a multiplicity out there and that you know, when we are talking about sexuality. We're not talking about one thing. And yes, that might, you know, fuck up the very heart of the law in terms of its its demand [00:54:30] for fixed city and representation. But you know what? We are talking about people's lives and experiences which the law should reflect, not determine. And so as a result, that's That's the way I would like to see it move forward. Thank you. Somebody a question. Now we still have a few minutes. Yes. Um, hi. My name is Yen. Um, I work for Shakti, um, women's refuge, which is, um, a women's refuge service that specifically targets or, [00:55:00] um, serves, um, refugee and migrant women from Asian, Middle Eastern and African backgrounds. Um, and what we see a lot of the time is those cultural values and those cultural persecutions, um, happening in our country in in New Zealand as well. And I'm just wondering, um, if if the recommendations of of your research will actually inform government [00:55:30] on how to protect these women from the persecution that happens in our own country when we don't recognise or at least Australian law doesn't recognise those persecutions, um, as means for asylum seeking. See the way I understood your question? Um, were you saying that how, um, they get persecuted within their the country they seek asylum in, So is that they seek asylum in [00:56:00] Australia, and they're being victimised in Australia or yeah, when when their migrant communities come. Oh, yeah, OK, by a broader. Yeah. Um, so, uh, my research specifically looks at the kind of judicial and administrative process. Um, so a lot of the kind of support structures and networks is a beyond the scope. However, um, you're absolutely right. I think, um, you know, there are issues of say, um, queer asylum seekers in detention who [00:56:30] have faced a lot of, uh, harassment from fellow detainees. Um, within that within that context, um, and, you know, they're then put in solitary as if that's the solution. Um Well, firstly, you just get rid of mandatory tension and then community, but anyway, um uh I think, yeah, um, part of the the first step is first acknowledging the kind of that the very issue going to that problem as going to the administrative process is acknowledging the M, the kind of inter multi dimensionality [00:57:00] of a person and the intersectionality of experience, that is, you're not only simply gay or lesbian, but you're also a person of colour or you're of a particular age or a particular faith. And then I think what then can happen is that's brought into dialogue. And I think that's the critical issue that's really missing here at both the legislative and policy making area, but also at the service provision, where service provision, as a result of policy setting, is so concerned with just discrete identities [00:57:30] that people often obscure the fact that actually people have multiple layers to them and that policy and service provision needs to be responsive to that. And frankly, that's not happening in Australia. Um, and hopefully that will happen and will change. And um, you know, And like I said, that's why you know, in my research, I'm really much more concerned with that kind of interdisciplinary and kind of multilayered approach to thinking about the law in a broader social and political environment and hopefully that will progress the issues that you that you have highlighted as well [00:58:00] thank you all very much for attending this session and hopefully tomorrow, in our end conclusions, we will see something back from your presentations. Thank you very much. And I wish you a very pleasant evening and hopefully see you again tomorrow. Thanks.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089433
TITLE: Session 8, Intersectionality
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VOICES: Sumithra Chand
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Sumithra Chand; Wellington Town Hall; Yogyakarta Principles (2006); activism; gender identity; human rights; sexuality
DATE: 18 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the Intersectionality session.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: The reason why, Uh um I have been, uh, from the moment this conference started really, really pleased and delighted. The likes the speakers, the likes of Elizabeth Carrere, Annette from Australia. Um, speakers like Gabby money Perry, the subject that they have been speaking on, uh, that of indigenous people, that of aboriginal Australians, That of Maori is something which is [00:00:30] of use is something that analogies can be drawn on the subject that I'm going to be addressing in this in this workshop, I want to acknowledge Mr Mina from the National Human Rights Commission of India. It is just such a delight to have you here, sir. And while we will start with the decriminalisation recent decriminalisation in India which is going [00:01:00] to occupy the first part of this workshop, I'm going to invite your attention to aspects of this judgement which are applicable, of course, to the rights of LGBT people in India, but also to the rights of minorities, to the rights of religious minorities to the rights of ethnic minorities, linguistic minorities. And in doing that, I'm hoping to build a basis [00:01:30] for dialogue amidst communities within communities and for communities to talk to each other and have a politics of coalition. Um, so this, uh, workshop is going to be in three parts while planning for this workshop? I had very little idea about who the audience is going to be or so much as how many, uh, how many people are going to attend and I think about the number that we have is just about perfect, [00:02:00] because the description of this session is a workshop, and I would really like it that I speak minimal and I really mean it. I love the spotlight. I love the microphone. But I would really like this workshop to be interactive. And for that, the number that we have is just brilliant. Um, the workshop is going to be in three parts. In the first part. We're going to talk about the, uh, the judgement, which was delivered on 2nd July 2009, and the judgement which has been a source of [00:02:30] much anticipation and joy and excitement and hope in doing that. What I want to focus on is the role of the community and the process that lead to it. Um, in second part, we are going to address we are going to begin with a case study of a man who combines the dynamics of being gay and of being. Now, before we proceed any further with the workshop, I just want to have a sense of how many people [00:03:00] who are here have a sense of what it means. 50 50. So we're going to spend some time on what Dale as an identity means and what similarities there might be, if any, with aboriginal Australians or with Maori. And in the final part, I'm going to really look forward to inputs and directions on how this work can be built. Some [00:03:30] more in India, in South Asia globally, I'm going to begin with I don't have any PTS. Uh, what I have is, uh, handouts, and I'll begin with giving that out. This is an excerpt from, uh, report was submitted to the U NDP, and I've just called out a portion of it, which gives the process that led to the judgement [00:04:00] of 2009, Uh, by itself. It is for use, uh, within the workshop. And, uh um, I could well have read from the material that is being handed out. Um, and but I thought that anything that I can read, you can read just as well yourself. So I'm going to give that out. But I'm going to recall because I had the privilege of being a part of this process. I'm going to recall how this process unfolded, and [00:04:30] I'm going to do that in brief points. Another reason why I've given out this handout is that the handout discusses in some more detail what the process was like. And as much as all the attention that I might pay to all the details, I will not be able to to describe this process exhaustively. The this process began in 2001 when, UH an NGO in Delhi Nars Foundation. India [00:05:00] approached the Delhi High Court seeking decriminalisation, or reading down of section 377 of the Indian Penal Court on grounds that the law was an obstacle to carrying out HIV intervention work amidst men who have sex with men and transgender persons. But before this petition in 2001 1994 [00:05:30] had known its predecessor by another group, which was the AIDS and Dolan, you won't find a mention of AIDS and Dolan in the handout that I've just given because the period that I'm covering in the handout is 2000 to 2010, and the predecessor to the petition that led to the 2009 judgement was in 1994 which unfortunately was not successful in 1998 99. [00:06:00] The petition, the predecessor petition, was dismissed by the Delhi High Court not on merits but on procedural grounds, so it never reached the stage where it could have been considered on merit 2001. Then is the historic year in which a legal challenge was mounted and a challenge that survived the cause of adjudication, a challenge that bore fruit by way of judgement in 2009. In 2003, the government of [00:06:30] India filed its response, primarily arguing that Section 377 or the criminalization ought to remain because it is essential for maintaining public morality. Various many grounds to opposition that can be to decriminalisation the ground that was taken by the government of India was public morality. In response to this for the first time, the petitioner NGO, along with the lawyers, collective [00:07:00] who had provided support, who had provided the legal expertise in filing this litigation, called a community consultation, to discuss aspects to discuss the response that will be to the government's stand on public morality. And that was the first time when the two NGOs sought actively sought community inputs. Until then, there was some resentment beginning to build within the community that how could something as significant [00:07:30] as a constitutional challenge to a law that is going to impact all our lives be mounted in the court without ever asking us? What is it that we want to say? But that resentment was very quickly, uh, very quickly addressed and a community consultation was sought. That consultation sought to build a larger coalition, which was to tackle the issue of public morality. If you're talking about morality, [00:08:00] whose morality are you talking about? Who is this public? Can there be any one cohesive public in a diverse country as India, which has one voice on morality? No. The coalition of organisations that was formed was the voices against 377 which was built on the principles of intersectionality, and that is where the topic of this workshop is key. The workshop is titled Intersectionality and Voices against [00:08:30] 3 77 as a coalition based on Intersectionality brought together groups working on women's rights groups working on health rights groups working on child rights groups working on LGBT rights, a diverse range which were all coming together in one voice and saying that they were against Section 3 77 in 2004. Sadly, the Delhi High Court dismissed the petition [00:09:00] on grounds that how can an organisation bring this challenge? Where are the real people who are affected by this law that this petitioner does not have the local stand eye to challenge the law in the first place? It was a very scary moment because having taken this bold step, it suddenly seemed that without even being considered on merits, the matter was going [00:09:30] to be thrown out on grounds that there is no local stand that this organisation is not affected directly. Bring the people to court who are affected and at the time it was a valid concern that there is stigma, there is so much risk at what cost would individuals come before court and claim that they are criminals and the crime is a violation of human rights. Thankfully, in 2006, [00:10:00] Supreme Court of India set aside the dismissal and restored the matter and uh, 2006 was also a time that voices against 3 77 as a coalition entered the legal arena. It filed an intervention on behalf of all the organisations representing different sectors and, uh, brought to court a viewpoint which [00:10:30] included that of community members which included voices from people who were directly affected by the law. These were by way of seven affidavits that we gathered from different parts of India and these also represented the sexual diversity, gender and sexual diversity. Because they were not only from men who have sex with men, not only from transgender persons, they were also from women. And that was a very important moment in the movement [00:11:00] where we had to decide. Should we should we not include women into this petition? On one hand was the risk that if you bring to attention something which has not so far something that the law has not imagined so far are you unnecessarily bringing women into the fold of criminality. On the other hand, was the fear that if you proceed with a movement which is largely dominated by men and remains visible [00:11:30] through men, do you then sideline women? What is going to be the role of women in this very central moment in India, where all of the LGBT movement was focusing was looking towards section 377 as a central point, it was a difficult decision. Voices against 377 decided that we are going to include the sufferings. We are going to include the zone of criminality because women are included in the zone of criminality. We would be ignoring [00:12:00] it and looking the other way if we do not include the experiences of women. So we did. And this is just one example of how different stakeholders differently invested, perhaps equally sharing the risk came together and partook. In this politics of intersectionality. I'm going to end with the the reading from [00:12:30] the judgement because that those are very powerful words and there is no replacement to the conclusion that judgement arrives at and altogether. The judgement is 105 pages. I will not read all of it. I will only read the portion that was read out in the court, and it's, uh, this is exactly what was read out on the day and I was present in the court that day, and even now, as I speak, I get goosebumps because [00:13:00] it was such a historic moment. And it is a great privilege for me to do what Justice Shah did that day from the bench. As he read out these words. The notion of equality in the Indian Constitution flows from the objective resolution moved by pundit Jawaharlal Nehru on December 13th, 1946. Nero, in his speech moving this resolution, wished that the House should consider [00:13:30] the resolution not in a spirit of narrow legal wording, but rather look at the spirit behind that resolution, he said. Quote words are magic things Often I'm going to start, he said. Quote words are magic things often enough, But even the magic of words sometimes cannot convey the magic of the human spirit and of a nation's passion. The resolution seeks, very feebly to tell the world [00:14:00] of what we have thought or dreamt for so long and what we now hope to achieve in the near future. If there is one constitutional tenet that can be said to be underlying theme of the Indian Constitution, it is that of inclusiveness. This court believes that Indian constitution reflects this value deeply ingrained in Indian society, nurtured over several generations. The inclusiveness that Indian society [00:14:30] traditionally displayed literally in every aspect of life is manifest in recognising a role in society. For everyone, those perceived by the majority as quote unquote deviants or quote unquote different are not on that score excluded or ostracised. Where society can display inclusiveness and understanding, such persons can be assured of a life of dignity and non discrimination. [00:15:00] This was the spirit behind the resolution of which Nehru spoke so passionately. In our view, Indian constitutional law does not permit the statutory criminal law to be held captive by the popular misconceptions of who the LGBT S are. It cannot be forgotten that discrimination is anti thesis of equality and that it is the recognition of equality which will foster the dignity of every individual. [00:15:30] We declare that Section 377 IPC. In so far, it criminalises consensual sexual acts of adults in private is violative of Article 21 14 15 of the Constitution. The provisions of Section 377 IPC will continue to govern non consensual penile, non vaginal sex and penile non vaginal sex involving minors. By adult, we mean everyone who is 18 years of age and above a person below 18 would be presumed not to be able to consent to a sexual act. This [00:16:00] time will hold till, of course, Parliament chooses to amend the law to effectuate the recommendation of the Law Commission of India in its 172nd report, which we believe removes a great deal of confusion. Secondly, we clarify that our judgement will not result in the reopening of criminal cases involving section 377 IPC that have already attained finality. We allow the petition in the above terms Chief Justice a Shah 2nd July 2009. [00:16:30] What happened on the day in the court was a deeply poignant moment for a good majority in the court. There weren't applause because there is a decorum which is maintained in the court, and regardless of the emotions that you might feel inside, you wouldn't demonstrate them by way of an applause. But there were certainly tears [00:17:00] in the eyes of many people. There were people who were hugging in the court, which is unusual for a large group of people to suddenly start hugging each other. And the group of people who were there went about it in a very, very quiet and dignified manner and walked slowly into the corridors of the Delhi High Court. And I'm there as I say these words and we walk down the stairs. And as we exited the building, there was press. [00:17:30] There was so much television media. There were so many reporters and many of us were surrounded by these reporters. We were celebrating the judgments, congratulating each other individually at the same time, saying a few words to the press. It was It was a historic moment for everyone gathered there and later in the afternoon we all gathered at a certain point in the city and there were applause and drums and there were songs and, uh, there was a party [00:18:00] so that now child rights and I will connect to the diversity question as well. What were some of the internal dialogue? Because I will not be able to address all of these internal dialogues. I will use the example of child rights to give an example. When we were filing the intervention, there was a concern by by Huck Centre for Child Rights, who is a member of voices against 377. That taking [00:18:30] away of this law will mean Children will be rendered vulnerable because this is the only law which attempts to address child sexual abuse. Although it was never the intention of the law to address child sexual abuse, but because of Indian penal code, not entirely not at all equipped in addressing child sexual abuse by default, Section 377 has played that role in the past, and the concern, quite rightly, that [00:19:00] Centre for Child rights had was that if you do away with the law as section 377 you're going to render Children vulnerable to sexual abuse. What law will remain then to prosecute perpetrators of child sexual abuse and that had to be very carefully discussed. The concerns had to be addressed, and it was made clear that what is being sought in the petition [00:19:30] is that of consent that brings me to the question that is asked here that which involves consensual adults and what will still remain in the law will be all those act which involve Children or are against the are without consent. So what was being asked effectively was not repeal of the law. What was being asked was reading down of the law that, yes, this is the law. But read it down. Read [00:20:00] it down to exclude consensual sex between adults and private, which would still include within the zone of criminality that which involves minors and as a judgement very clearly states that in the last few lines, and it will include all that is non consensual, so the element of consent is essential. The same element element of consent [00:20:30] that you talked about was not present in the text of the law. The text of the law was whoever voluntarily has sex against the order of nature, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But it did not differentiate between acts that were consensual acts which were non consensual. Having said that, the notion of consent did not occupy attention of the judges did not even occupy the attention much attention in arguments if I was to highlight [00:21:00] aspects of the judgement which uh which come out or themes of the judgement key themes of the judgement would come out, it would be privacy and dignity. It would be equality. Consent was raised in the arguments by an intervener which was which took it to at a tangent which was online, that if you allow this that anything [00:21:30] which is by consent for example drug abuse for example sati which is voluntary suicide committed by a widow which is customary and there have been laws against it a number of gambling, consensual gambling These were arguments taken by an intervener by the name of BP Single. He was a private party and his intervention [00:22:00] was located squarely on the element of consent that if you allow this if you decriminalise single was telling the court that if you decriminalise sodomy today, it will open the floodgates. You will have to decriminalise gambling. You will have to decriminalise sati, which is a voluntary suicide by widows, A number of ills and wrongs in society. They are all going to suddenly emerge and you're going to have to decriminalise everything. And that was the role of consent. [00:22:30] Um, it is It isn't, uh, addressed in great detail in the judgement. Um, how was the judgement received by the by the media? There was a great deal of interest. They were They were television channels which were abuzz. And this was a story that was going to sell. It was grabbed the attention. It had everything. [00:23:00] It had sex. Of course, it was based on the lives of people who were largely hidden. There was mixed response. Largely it was of support where televisions were were supporting the judgement. But they were also, uh, especially the religious right wing groups emerged. And this was the first time where there was solidarity, where the Christians [00:23:30] and the Muslims and the Hindus were suddenly speaking one voice. They were all united in saying that the judgement is horrendous and it ought to be set aside by the Supreme Court. Um, right. Have I addressed everything? Did I miss something? Yes. Yes, please. Um the in the Supreme Court. The matter was not contested. It was appealed by [00:24:00] the by the petitioners. But the solicitor general at the time, Gopal Subramanyam, admitted before the court that this is a matter which is deserving of public, which is deserving of public interest litigation and therefore ought to be considered on merit. And I think thank you very much for bringing that point, because often in our zeal of activism, we only imagine opposition, and we forget that there are offices within the government, which would be [00:24:30] supportive. And I remember that day we were all prepared for all ammunition to support this. And it was. It almost took our breath away because they were solicitor general, stood up and said that your Lord should be concede that this is a matter entirely deserving of public interest litigation. And even the bench was taken aback a bit. And then it was recorded that the solicitor general has conceded, and then on that it went back. The age of consent. [00:25:00] The Indian penal code provides the age of consent in the context of rape and for sexual intercourse with a girl less than 8 16. It's considered rape regardless of consent. And there you get a sense of the age of consent for girls. The other age of consent is vis a vis marriage where the age of marriage for girls is 18 and the age of marriage for boys or men is 21. [00:25:30] Uh, so these are the the legal ages of marriage, the legal ages of consent, which are there in legal tests and legal imaginations. The age of consent in judgement is 18, and therefore it would set it on different terms to the 16 age of consent and may well be at a later stage, a fit case for discrimination. Because 16 versus 18 and there is a disparity. [00:26:00] Did that answer your question? OK, can we proceed to the second part of this workshop Now, are we going to do that with a case study? And I'm going to request my good friend and colleague to read and I'm going to give the hand out for that. I used to think I'm the only one. I wasn't interested in girls. All my friends were attracted to girls. They'd go on [00:26:30] about it. I used to wonder why I don't feel the same way. I used to worry some people wouldn't. Some people would tell me it's a disease. I had so many questions, I didn't have any answers. I had no one to share my loneliness. I couldn't have told my family. I didn't know myself. Who or what I am? Some of my early relations were consensual. Some weren't. There were those [00:27:00] with whom I couldn't even bear to sit. They were by force. It was terrible. I had to fight. I had to cajole. What else could I do? This is common. They consider this their manpower. Masculinity. If somebody is below them, they feel happy. Maybe they consider it an honour that I have fucked him. Now he will be subservient to me all his life. He will not lift his eyes in front of me. [00:27:30] I think when this is revealed about a boy everyone wants to use him. They think he is soft target. He will not tell anyone. And if he does, it will only bring him shame. He will be beaten up. His family will think he is to blame with me. This went on from the age of 13 to 25. I used to prefer staying home. Not going about. [00:28:00] I used to feel scared making new friends. If there'd be a new friendship building. I used to wonder if I should get into it. Will I end up with the tag Gand Bugger. My friends would say People say this and that about you. If you learn self defence, it will be good for you. So I started learning martial arts. My body became strong. It was an era of struggle for me. I knew [00:28:30] I had to win the win against these people. And to win it is necessary to have power. Physical power is necessary in a village. The kind of mentality people have is not for people like us. They speak another language. They have to be tackled in that language. They would say We can't get our hands on him these days. Wonder what he's up to. After all that we have done to him. How dare he stand up to us even now He is [00:29:00] seeing someone The day he gets caught, we will do with him again. They said they used to make many more jibes slowly and gradually I overcame all that. I was ready not to get the tag Gan again. I used to make relationships after a lot of thought and consideration. I'd be willing to have a relationship if I found the man worthy. If not I'd say to him, Don't mess with me. If [00:29:30] you try to grab me, your hands will be chopped off at this stage of my life. I don't care what my neighbours think. Some of my family members support me. Some don't. I can only tell them I'm gay. I can only say yes. My relationships will be with men, not women. Open your eyes and look at this. Open your minds and understand this. Etch it upon your hearts. This is what [00:30:00] I am. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. What Satya just read is a a narrative from, uh um a longer, more detailed interview, Uh, with a man who is both gay. And, [00:30:30] um, before the I invite you to imagine the possibilities of combining these two aspects, I would draw reference to where we are and propose analogies with the people who are Maori and people [00:31:00] who are also lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender people who combine in their single lives the aspects of being aboriginal Australians and also lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender queer. I want to I was listening with interest about the culture of Fani in Samoa, and I'm curious to know what life [00:31:30] would be like for a gay samaan. These different, almost exclusive pockets we live our lives in. Sometimes these communities come together, sometimes they don't. And I'm looking to this space with a lot of anticipation because there is already a great deal of work that has happened. I'm so envious of people who are already [00:32:00] here in the conference. Elizabeth Uh uh, the wonderful man who was, uh uh comparing the, uh, the entertainment at the conference dinner yesterday. And it seems to me that they have lived their lives openly and have had no doubt struggles. And I think of possible parallels in India, and I want to know where are those [00:32:30] people who are and who are also gay or queer? Are these two communities so dissimilar, so world such such a such a difference between them that they're world apart, that it cannot be imagined that they can be a quarter of a billion people in India are so we are not really talking of a minority in numbers. We are talking of a set of people [00:33:00] who are oppressed and have been not only for 100 200 years, but have been systematically through the culture and tradition in the Hindu caste system and cars system is not a relic. It's a living organism which pervades the life of Indian society. There have been tremendous efforts by way of law reform by way of constitutional [00:33:30] guarantees which protect ballots. There is Article 15, which prohibits discrimination on grounds of cast. There is the prohibition of discrimination. There are protective legislations. And yet, if you were to evaluate the impact of these legislations, evaluate in what way people are actually able to seek these protections, you will find that the effect of the law is minimal and people continue [00:34:00] to have lives are filled with discrimination, oppression, stigma and abuse. Dali is a cast. It combines it had a great diversity of people. So it is not any one cohesive group. It will constitute what is referred in constitutional terms, scheduled caste and scheduled tribes, and within these scheduled cast and scheduled tribes, there will be multiple [00:34:30] possibilities of many, many, many, many castes. So by itself it is not a cohesive group or a cluster or a single community. It is all those people who have been oppressed, exploited and discriminated because of their cast identity in the Hindu car system. The vernacular car system there are four of [00:35:00] which there is a clear hierarchy which has Brahmins at the top, which is the teacher class or the teacher cast. There are the Who are the warrior caste. There are the who are the business cast. There are the who do work with their hands, and they the artisans and the outcasts are those who are untouchable. And [00:35:30] in the Hindu caste system, untouchability was practised. They were so below any human standards that they were not to be touched. Even their shadow was not to fall upon you. And so much as their short shadow was to fall upon a caste Hindu, it would defile the caste Hindu and the cast Hindu must take a bath, and they will receive a punishment for the so. There were practises [00:36:00] like that, and I don't want to dwell too much into it because there are more detailed accounts of the system in India that would be available for reference. But I think this description will suffice. I will also say that it is a dynamic society we live in. These are dynamic times, so no one truth is going to apply equally to all of India to all of Dalits. So there [00:36:30] would be who live in cities. There would be dus who live in villages and the lives in villages and cities would be world apart. So anything that I might say and I don't want to overly dramatise the caste system in India and I don't want to say this in rhetoric, but I do want to say that there are very strong elements of operation exploitation and discrimination that continue to exist. And I want [00:37:00] to recount from, uh, from a personal experience. Uh, the narrative that was read, of course, was my interview with somebody who lives in a village. But when I went to university, when I went to law school in my first year with great anticipation, I was looking forward to meeting my roommate, who I was going to share the hostel. There were rooms on shared basis and with a lot of courage. For my first time, I came out to him and [00:37:30] I told him that I'm done. My first coming out was not that I'm gay. My first coming out was, and it is interesting to use coming out in this context, because cast is not like race, it is not apparent on the face on your face, and his response to me was, really you don't look like one. And at the time, I remember feeling really pleased with the the response that [00:38:00] I was relieved that I don't look like one. But the what was implicit in that statement or in my feeling of relief or joy that I don't look like one, was that it? Nobody wants to look like a why, because sells don't look that good. They don't wear good clothes. They don't able to speak very well, certainly not English and even now, in cities, there [00:38:30] is the greater freedom of leading lives where you can keep aside your cast identity and lead a life where your cast identity will not constantly put obstacles in your way. But there are very regular interrogation on your and cast is apparent in your surname, so it needn't be that you have to necessarily come out. But your surname could well disclose your cast identity, certainly, and that surname that doesn't reveal a cast identity [00:39:00] is by default, not worthy at all times. of very good social status. So it could be that a Chaturvedi, Chaturvedi or surnames, which are better known as caste Hindu surnames, would be treated with a marginal greater respect than an unknown surname. So these are some of the, uh these are some of the more subtle aspects of car system which are not so subtle Back home, they are very, very apparent. And everyone understands [00:39:30] marriages are almost entirely, you know, the classified. If you pick up any classified newspaper, you find matrimonial advertisements looking for we fair, uh, polite and, uh, good looking girl. And they're all on cast lines. They're also on colour of skin, but they're also on cast lines. Um, right to that's right. [00:40:00] Certainly not. And just to give, just to give the dimensions of cast, it is more than 16 per cent for schedule cast. This is according to 2001 census, more than 16 per cent for schedule cast and 8. 2 per cent for schedule tribes. So altogether it is about 25 per cent of India's schedule casts and schedule tribes, which is a quarter of a billion people, and to further take that percentage and bring to the subject of this [00:40:30] workshop. And if you were to take as little as five per cent of people who may be queer, 5% of this quarter of a billion people in India may be queer, and we know absolutely nothing about them. The case study that I shared with you is something that I'm looking to with a lot of anticipation. And I'm looking to build more on this. It is a pioneering work, and I'm really, uh, very pleased to [00:41:00] be able to share it with you. Thank you.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089493
TITLE: Vaitoa Toelupe
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VOICES: Vaitoa Toelupe
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Samoa; Vaitoa Toelupe; Wellington Town Hall; fa'afafine; human rights; transgender
DATE: 18 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Vaitoa Toelupe from Samoa talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I am from Samoa. I'm here to represent the association. And what brought us to this conference is, um, um the kind to, um, support and Grant and and Donorship of the Netherlands Kingdom of Netherlands so that we have a representation from the Pacific in this in this gathering and so that our Pacific voice is heard. And that's why we came. And secondly, to to be part of this event to be part of this event. What were the main [00:00:30] messages that you wanted to bring to this conference? We have a clear, uh, we have a clear, um, set of statements that we wanted to make known. Um, we were fortunate that three Pacific Islanders were able to present keynote speeches. Carl and she Brown today and myself yesterday. And our three main message was one. There's been a lot of reference to Asia Pacific. We we we wanted to challenge how genuine the inclusion of Pacific is, and then it's an issue of representation and that if it [00:01:00] is pa and if it's not Pacific, then be specific. You know, Where do we place, Uh, where do they place us? Secondly, it was to really, um emphasise, um, the reference to terminology. The reference to to to a, um the reference to LGBT, especially LGBTI. We respect LGBTI, but we also ask that we are respected in terms of our cultural identity, cultural references and what is applicable [00:01:30] in our context. Back home it is. It's necessary because we identify with it. Our governments identify with it and for our national and global awareness of human rights activism for our governments to participate and actually take part, they have to be made aware they have to be informed in our context. And those were basically the 32 main main points of what we wanted to to to be heard here. And I think we did a good job of it. [00:02:00] Can you explain a wee bit more about the idea about the terms LGBTI and how that doesn't fit into a specific context? The L GB LGBTI Thank you terminology. We believe in our in our our understanding is a medical, um, medical, um, models of definition or medical terms, you know, especially with transsexuals. Transgender, for it's a cultural identity. [00:02:30] And that's the vast separation we identified culturally in our place in society and where we place in in our culture before our sexuality and the level of tolerance back home. Because of that fact, it's a cultural identity is something we don't want to jeopardise when the sexual identity is brought in. That's the difference. What is the state of, uh, rights in Samoa at the moment? [00:03:00] Um, the government of Samoa has recently reviewed our position in the Declaration of Human Rights and we are like every other country, uh, have attempted and is still in the progress in the in the in the road of of advocating for Human Rights and more ratified the Convention of Elimination of Discrimination against Women CEO. And that work is continuous. Its implementation has been happening since the nineties and the convention the rights of a child CRC [00:03:30] that was ratified in 92 and its implementation implementation is also, uh, full full on in terms of advocating and and our recent elected government is the Human Rights Party. What are some of the the big things that you will take away from this conference? One of the the most important things that we we will take away in this conference is that one we are glad to have made a statement and that we are heard two [00:04:00] is that we have a responsibility to really go back home and see where we place ourselves in a global in a in an international arena in in the global picture, and that we need to come to terms of how we can work with LGBTI with Internet with with or organisation like Asia Pacific to make it work because it's the only way we can move forward together. We don't want to be a separate, um, set of activists. It's the same, it's the same. But we just need [00:04:30] to find our common ground and see where we work together better and that's that's That's one of the main things that we want to learn and this is a start. This is our first time to be in a human rights conference that that has to be acknowledged, and because of that, we now know where we can move to, you know, for the next step, can can you identify any, uh, similarities or differences that you've picked up from from peoples around the world? There's a lot of similarities, I think, because of the labels there's their separation. [00:05:00] I think the only thing that we are intrigued with especially, is the the like again. Again, I mentioned the medical, uh, reference like to trans transsexuals. Um, the that is very foreign to us, and we were intrigued by it. But we believe that is a, uh we are living examples of unconditional love. So are gays and lesbians. So are transsexuals. So other transgenders that we have met in this place and we all fight for the same purpose. [00:05:30] It's just simply to achieve that simple purpose of giving love and receiving the same amount of love and respect back. It's that simple and that we all have. Can you talk a wee bit about? Um um are the gays and lesbians in Samoa and and how do they fit in? Of course. I mean Samoa Island, with only 100 and 80,000 people, we've been colonised the in we just as much as we are trying to challenge [00:06:00] and compact the adverse impacts of climate change, So are we with globalisation and that we won't deny that there's gays and lesbians in time, But the question is, or or men having sex with men. But the question is, will they own up to that? Ah, but the situation back home is not to painted like a gay heaven that it's it's all you know, um, out in the open there is no cultural place. There's no cultural identity for for gay because it's a sexual orientation or sexual identity [00:06:30] and lesbians. That's the only difference with with there is a place in society. Um, they have a designation of where they stand because they are born to families and born to to to to within the community. But gays are there. It does exist. It does exist. Our people travel. Our people have migrated, immigrated and migrated and come back with different lifestyles and influences. And it does exist [00:07:00] for them. How What are the rights like in Samoa for for gays and lesbians? Well, for lesbians in my paper when I presented because of the cultural status of of lesbians in terms of they are women and because of our women, we they hold us a highest level of of recognition and status. The last one is just, I think, I I hate to be I maybe don't the listens back home are very conservative because there's nothing to fight for. You know they are comfortable [00:07:30] that the the the the world revolves around their family taking care of their Children. If they do have Children, most lesbians live together, and it's a norm because it's they're not. And the argument is it's to let sleeping dogs lie. If it's not broken, don't fix it. The the the tolerance is there, the acceptance is there with there, and there's nothing to there. There hasn't been an extreme movement to to for recognition beyond that because they are already recognised. [00:08:00] So from this conference do do you have any ideas about what you're going to do when you get back to Samoa? Yes, since the beginning of the summer Association, we have had our strategic plan implementation plan of activities that we need to engage ourselves in. What we have gained from this conference are bit ideas of how to further advocate for that and implement that. But it's the same issues, you know. It's the same human rights issues. It's the same, um, proposed actions and plans that we [00:08:30] have in place for years. It's taking it to the next level and that's what we propose to do when we get we get back home is to continue to advocate, for, to have a better living standard, to have economic and social, um, opportunities to grow for social mobility, to employment, um, for for for and in general to build their capacity. And we will also open our doors to people, um, people who may identify themselves as LGBT in Samo [00:09:00] if they own up to it or when they want to own up to it. To be part of this movement and and to be part of of making a difference because majority of the moment is to make a difference to ourselves. Our an acceptance our movement is to make a difference for everyone, and that's our driving force. It's not just to because everyone already has an understanding of tolerance and a place, but it's a movement to make a difference. To improve the human rights and standards of [00:09:30] men, women, Children and boys and girls and everyone. Is there any opposition to getting more rights or or expanding rights? There will be opposition. We have recently submitted our to the Law Commission, the Law Reform Commission, and we're waiting cabinet to see, um, it has made it to Cabinet for a decision, especially with the laws of, um, sodomy and homosexuality as being illegal and the [00:10:00] impersonation of women. And but these laws were direct cut and paste of of of the Colonial times, and that the opposition we see through the homosexuality act is because they are more one of its founding principles is Christianity. So that's that. That would definitely be an opposition. But before, like just as much as is our cultural identity and sexuality is next is, um, um is secondary. So [00:10:30] we would be so will also be the approach with our position. They will oppose to the fact of legalising a sexual act that that is taboo in our culture. But there will also be a consideration to the fact that it will affect people of the community such as us, so there will always be a position. There will always be opposition, but you know, that's that's That's why we we we work to to gain recognition and and really understanding and education [00:11:00] and awareness so that people know that there's a way around it, or that there's, uh, always a second of, um, two sides to a story in how we handle, you know people and how we handle our communities and how we can move forward together. Is there a time frame for those changes to go through Parliament? Our government has recently just have faced elections, so there will be a delay. But there is a time frame and we hope it [00:11:30] will. A result will come out as soon as possible within this year. So this is a big year for some of our F association, and we look forward to the to the outcome and where to from there.

IRN: 312
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_vaitoa_toelupe_keynote.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004127
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089421
TITLE: Vaitoa Toelupe - AsiaPacific Outgames
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: David Huebner; Vaitoa Toelupe
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Ilott Theatre; Samoa Fa'afafine Association; So'oalo To'oto'oali'i Roger Stanley; Vaitoa Toelupe; activism; fa'afafine; history; human rights; transcript online; transgender
DATE: 17 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Vaitoa Toelupe delivers a keynote presentation. Vaitoa is introduced by David Huebner, the United States Ambassador to New Zealand. The presentation happened during the second plenary session: Our rights across the Asia Pacific region - a snapshot.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, our next speaker is a very outspoken and proud Sato is a member of the Samoa Association and a graduate of Auckland University. Holding, a bachelor of arts degree in political science, is currently a senior officer in the disaster management office in Samoa. She's famous in Samoa for her designing consultancy by the name of Island [00:00:30] Couture. Uh, this has set seen her design and dress numerous Miss Samoa and Miss South Pacific title holders via. Did you design anything last year for 2010? Uh uh. I was the lead judge of the Miss Samoa pageant last year. And I, I didn't see you anywhere. That's why I was asking. Um has also successfully organised the industry variety awards, [00:01:00] which was the first of its kind in Samoa to showcase the colourful entertainments by the in Samoa. Uh, and to date, it remains the talk of the town. Uh, please give a very, very warm welcome to thank you, honourable Ambassador for the introduction. It's our love for everyone [00:01:30] [00:02:00] to low to low to low lover. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen and distinguished delegations from across Asia and the Pacific. Thank you for this opportunity to hear the voices of the Pacific, and hopefully it will echo through this forum through these hallways and across the vast Pacific Ocean. So it may have an input and significant change in our purpose to [00:02:30] advocate for our God given universally declared human rights. As introduced, I invite to an executive member of the association incorporated. I am humbled to be given the opportunity to speak on behalf of our president, Roger Toto Ali Stanley, who could not be here today. Roger is one of the few who has been recently appointed at the assistant chief executive officer level for the Ministry [00:03:00] of Women, Community and Social Development and Achievement. The association is most proud of and is inspiring for most to follow. So even though she's not here physically, she is with us in spirit, and it's a good thing she's not here because otherwise she would be snoring already in the front row and asking where morning when morning tea will be served. And but for those of you who [00:03:30] know Roger, she may be snoring. But if you're out of line, she'll come back to life like a hungry lion and, considering her voluptuous island delights. Her attack is not a pretty sight. She is, after all, once, twice, three times a lady. It is probably one of our known [00:04:00] attributes, as we say it as it is with little consideration on of how you perceive what is said. It is one of the reasons why we naturally become strong advocates for what we believe in. And in this gathering, it happens to be our human rights. I will speak today about human rights and the intricacies of navigating the main field minefield of traditional and cultural values versus the New Age laws and customs among and most importantly, [00:04:30] its relevance to the lives of a is a cultural identity. It is not a sexual identity. To understand the you must first understand the or Samoan culture. We are intrigued with the well with the wealth of knowledge and learning from this conference, especially with the LGBT community, the history, the struggles and finding a way forward. It is therefore necessary [00:05:00] that the LGBT community has an opportunity to hear a perspective from a vulnerable group within a vulnerable group within a vulnerable group in Samoa called There is someone saying Samoa has already been defined. The three main pillars of Samoa is culture, the church and its constitution. Its social structure determines roles and responsibilities of each individual to uphold, [00:05:30] to honour, respect and execute, execute to to keep the stability and harmony and well being. Of all this definition of Psalm one society predetermines the purpose of an individual and their entitlements. We when a child is born this child is born with its unique cultural identity and associated birth rights. They are the living continuum of family, genealogy, heritage and history. [00:06:00] They are heirs of to family land. They are heirs to chief and their birth right is to inherit all of the above plus the coconut tree and the mango tree in front of their house and family family the other, um for the male, the the identity is well established. They are the strength [00:06:30] on a that the bullet the authority for girls or training they are the most sacred. She is the covenant, the honour upheld and protected by her brothers, her womb from her womb. Our genealogy will continue [00:07:00] qualify. She is the provider and the wealth of her family lies in her hands to protect and maintain a. She is the peacemaker. It is the same identity given to to Christianity as a founding principle in the Samoan culture. Christianity was given the utmost respect as the or the covenant, and the social structure will protect it [00:07:30] and honour it as we do today. Every Samoan inherits these rights from birth. It is why, when a meets another Samoan, the first question is, what is your name? Where is your village? Who are your parents? What church do you come from? What land do you belong to? And never do we ask who or what do you sleep with Because of these cultural birth rights? This is the basis of our existence. When is born [00:08:00] like every palmon boy A is an heir to land titles to the authority. It is our role to uphold family honour by preserving the covenant between boys and girls and God in their growth can also be providers and peacekeepers. It's the perfect cocktail of the two roles and somewhat over privileged, but it's inheritance that comes with a price. It is of these [00:08:30] birth, uh, birth rights and Samoa have long enjoyed the Samoan people's sincere tolerance as they are Children of the land and family. So in my country, you being having the blood of your ancestors running through your veins. Being a vessel to uphold family, tradition and culture. Having a purpose to care for your sisters and brothers and honouring your birth rights is your first measure as a human being. Me being is secondary [00:09:00] and so is what I do in bed. Have sex with straight men. This is a fact, but it is not perceived a homosexual act and this is the culture. This cultural identity is extremely important because it is the foundation to our approach to advocating for human rights. We are extremely proud of our culture. Our place in Samon society in recognition of our people, is the reason we stand straight. We walk [00:09:30] tall, we sing loud and often arrogant thinking. Samoa is bigger than Africa. But our culture, the essence of our very being, is also our greatest enemy. The true test of Samoan people's tolerance was tested when sexual rights, sexual orientation, the term homosexuals, homophobia, stereotypes, reproductive issues and marital preferences became an apparent became apparent with the wake of the HIV and a I DS pandemic in the late 19 eighties, [00:10:00] it severely challenged the status quo. In the three pillars of Samoa, the culture became strongly influenced by labels, terminologies and and its associated implications embraced similar cultures such as drag, artistry, entertainment and even gay lifestyles. When travelling abroad, the unspoken having sex with men was immediately thrown under the microscope, and our cultural identities became confused. In [00:10:30] the process, The shameful realities of the silence with sexuality became more and more prevalent. Issues around child abuse and sexual exploitation of generally by male family members and were immediate family members were unreported, and it was a fact had to face orientation by overseas experts, focused on homosexuals and were immediately targeted because [00:11:00] of assumed and apparent sexual orientation. It was the first time started to hear of LGBT. The church community, despite its strong presence in church activities, became easy targets of the usual usual bullshit. You are an abomination. Homosexuality is a sin while ministers turn a blind eye to alcohol abuse to crime, adultery, rape and murder. Yeah, [00:11:30] for our constitution, pressures of consensual and non consensual homosexuality and wearing and having articles of women's clothing on you in public was against the law and punishable by fines and imprisonment, a direct cut and paste and what I like to call from Colonial New Zealand administration. In Roger's own words, they say I'm breaking the law because I'm Impersonating a woman while show me a woman [00:12:00] that looks like me. So the realities of the sexually of so the realities of the sexuality of our cultural identities tolerated by people before, became more apparent. It was just as ugly and real as it is around the world. These realities you are too familiar with, which brings me to the second part of my address and which, with these surfacing realities and challenges, what did we do about it? [00:12:30] The community is a traditional part of the Ministry of Health. Since the initiation of the HIV prevention programme in 1987 it has established its role as the advocacy leaders that outreaches to the marginalised groups and those who cannot be reached by the official networks. It was the beginning of the movement for the first time, organised workshops and strategic gathering to discuss issues on health, sex and well being for saw the potential with the community to take HIV [00:13:00] and AIDS to the next level, using non conventional conventional means of promotion. And for decades the Ministry of Health has capitalised on social and professional connections of to reach the marginalised and vulnerable groups. This is where comes in because of the status of women. Culturally, the community are not visible as the community. Their issues are often conservative and reserved within the comfort and security of their own. Families, unlike [00:13:30] who sometimes sometimes think they are in Hollywood, keep to themselves and keep them a man, their sacredness and their honour. Because although their sexuality was also thrown under the radar, advocating for something that is broke that is not broken will probably go against them. So in one FAA's words, let sleeping dogs lie. This is their preference in a position we must respect prostitution and [00:14:00] involved in casual paid or casual kind. Paid sexual activity also received an extended hand from the community, although this is never encouraged as an option for a full time job in the islands, there's a lot of land to work the awareness for HIV and AIDS and is taking the leading role eventuated to the establishment of the Samoa AIDS Foundation is here today and Teresa were founding members of of the HIV and AIDS Agenda, and the HIV and AIDS agenda escalated [00:14:30] to new heights by this. By this stage in our moment, the community was ready to take the bold step of establishing a collective to focus purely on vulnerable groups with vulnerable groups within vulnerable groups and after cheap bourbon, as Sarah puts it and borrowed Coke at Roger's Mansion, which could only fit five people. The greatest initiative of our time was conceived to establish the association. And [00:15:00] sure enough, nine months later down the line the most beautiful, most danker most man Manu bad, most beautiful some of our association was born. It gained instant political support with our prime minister as a patron and I was in a position to make a stand. FFA's rights advocacy began to include the rights to our sexual orientation, our gender identity, cultural identity and gender expressions. With the minor issues of sex relations, Same sex relations, [00:15:30] adoption and Anti Discrimination Association submitted last year a law during a law reform commission to decriminalise punishment to homosexual activity and female impersonation. I am pleased to advise that the Samoa Law Reform Commission took on board our submissions and recommended it to government. We are awaiting to hear the outcome of that of that exercise, but nevertheless we will still wake up every morning we our put on our big flowers [00:16:00] and we go to work to provide for our families. Despite it being a crime. The police do what they want, do what they do, and we do what we do. It's like a mutual respect and understanding of our reliance on our gender expression as much as our reliance on our careers in order to supply support our families just as the police do. Sadly, the GL BT model is has is found wanting for us here because with advent of HIV and AIDS in [00:16:30] the Pacific Pacific, excuse me. The issues are now of about sexuality and sexual acts. When for us the we have the rich, we have this rich history in our heritage, which we are wo to removing the Association of our role to sexual acts. And in conjunction with the Samoa AIDS Foundation, we are making inroads into the general public in terms of making sex, safe sex acts, campaigns, a part of everyday life for all Samoans. [00:17:00] Not just for we are going back to our roots, our cultural identity, and use that model instead of the GB LT model or the foreign terminologies. It's appropriating what works in our construct. Why should we use an outside model that will not? Only that will only insult and antagonise our elders, our culture, our people. It doesn't make any sense. And it is perhaps the reason why the sex Act [00:17:30] models will continue to push an uphill battle in Samoa and the Pacific. In our advocacy, we want to make known the Y Kakata principles as new as 2006 6, and we acknowledge their use relevance to Western societies or societies where there is consistent abuse and confusion in terms of citizenship, gender identity and sexual orientation. But because of its focus on gender identity and sexual orientation, its application [00:18:00] are flawed for us in the Pacific. We know our sexual orientation, and so do all of our people. We know our place and our gender identity, and so do all of our people. Our drive in strategic direction is to full steam ahead with capacity building for so they truly know their place in society. It's the only way they can contribute by feeling a sense of pride or belonging to something that is part of you and your culture. For us, it's a long road from a humble beginning [00:18:30] as a social gathering, which then led to the formation of association, and we are here and we are hammered by the opportunity. So the question really, what do we want from this conference? We are able to share our cultural perspective and our cultural identity. But what do we really want from this conference? What do we want to achieve? And it's quite simple and I think we have three main main main agendas that we want to push through. One is funding, funding, [00:19:00] funding, funding with the proper support structure to work with us on relevance of policies that work in our culture. In our context, we don't want to give. We don't want you to give up on us. Real value is based on gathering real evidence. As a movement, we need to hold your donors and people who are responsible for providing this funding accountable. But we must also determine if your structure and policies are effective and applicable in our context. Two. [00:19:30] Asia Pacific needs to needs to be inclusive of the Pacific in bold. Otherwise, don't use the Pacific if you never want to see again to officially include our cultural identities. This is the third point in the documentation in the language and the advocacy we respect LGBT. But if the only excuse is adding all the names is too long, like commonly said, then let it be. So [00:20:00] have 10 papers with all the names. That's what we want. Our world, yours and mine is in trouble and there is no argument at all. We live in a society bloated with fill and filled with data and information. We ride the subway sub highway of Facebook and Twitter and emails, yet we are starved for wisdom. We're connected to each other 24 7 tech through technology. Yet we are filled with anxiety, fear, depression and loneliness issues [00:20:30] which are all which are at an all time high. Don't you feel or agree with me that we need a a correction in our course? The link between the past and the future is very fragile, especially more so for us in the Pacific. Our forefathers fought for our human rights. It's why we want to continue the battle. So, in closing, I would like to offer you this. The Asia Pacific. We would like to see it as our canoe. Our people are voyages. True [00:21:00] navigation begin in the human heart. It's the most important map of all. Together we can do it together. Together we can generally help each other. There is nowhere else to go. And this is the message for our Pacific delegation. And for everyone here today there is nowhere else to go. What we are looking for is right here. What we are looking for is right here. I would like to thank the Netherlands government, [00:21:30] the United States government and also the government of New Zealand for inviting us here today and being able and having the opportunity to sponsor our participation. We are very grateful. Thank you very much. Right. I know.

IRN: 271
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/25_anniversary_law_reform_discussion.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004200
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089494
TITLE: 25th anniversary panel discussion on homosexual law reform
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie; Bill Logan; Fran Wilde
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Alison Laurie; Bill Logan; Fran Wilde; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; activism; gay liberation movement; history; homosexual law reform; human rights; politics
DATE: 17 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa, 55 Cable Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Fran Wilde, Alison Laurie and Bill Logan reflect on the campaign for homosexual law reform in the mid-1980s. The audio is supplied courtesy of Te Papa.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Through the 19 seventies, there were various attempts and discussions, but nothing really happened. There were a few campaigns, but they were based on, um, unequal ages of consent and things of that kind. And then finally, um, discussions were held in 1984 with Fran Wilde, who was new to Parliament, uh, the member for Wellington Central. And then in 1985 the bill was introduced. We believed that it would be a short, sharp parliamentary campaign, but very rapidly. Opposition was mobilised, [00:00:30] and it became clear that it was going to be a very broad public campaign. And a number of organisations, both for and against the bill, uh, were formed, and it became a great battleground for some of which we'll discuss in more detail. Lesbians were very involved, um, in this campaign. And, uh, that, of course, is because when any Well, although lesbians were not lesbian sex wasn't criminal in this country. Um, when any kind of homosexuality is illegal, then every homosexual, [00:01:00] male or female is seen as criminal. Um, the interesting thing about this bill is that, uh, alliances, strong alliances were formed. And those are for those of you who are not from New Zealand. In 1981 the Springbok tour saw the country divide on the issue of whether or not South African apartheid. Um, South Africa should come here and play rugby, the country divided. And, uh, it's interesting [00:01:30] that the same division became apparent during the campaign for homosexual law reform. And really, it was the division between the old New Zealand of Rob Muldoon and the Conservatives and the New New Zealand finally to be represented by Helen Clark and very progressive ideas. Um, personally, I think what I'd like to say is that for me, I always wanted to be involved in that campaign I was very aware of when I came out in the late 19 fifties and through the 19 sixties of uh [00:02:00] and at that point we had very mixed communities of lesbians and gay men. We called ourselves camps at that time, Um, and it was very clear that we were all outcast together and that we would either move forward together and progress would happen, or it wouldn't. I would also just like to finally say that part of our public campaign were actions that we undertook for visibility to improve the morale of our communities so that people were becoming very despondent because a lot of the things that were happening and we used a lot of humour, [00:02:30] uh, to try to improve people's spirits and create a sense of community. So in that sense, there were a lot of different things going on. And finally, we achieved success in 1986 with the passage of the bill. Very good. And, uh, greetings to all the Irish here tonight. Um, if you're not Irish, you want to be, um Look, I, [00:03:00] um first of all, I'm sitting on a hard chair because I've got a bad back and I'll cripple these days. I can sit on these. Um, I just want to probably useful to say why did I get involved? Well, I was elected to Parliament in 1981 for Wellington Central. And just before that election, an emissary from the gay community came to see me and said, Would you vote for homosexual law reform? And I said, Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. Young, urban liberal. Why wouldn't I? Next question was a bit nastier. Well, would you sponsor [00:03:30] a bill if nobody else would. And I thought, Oh, I suppose so. I innocently said, um, and thereafter my life was changed forever. Um, nobody else would. And And the first the bill that I looked at first was the equality Bill, which may or may not be discussed tonight, but for various reasons, it didn't proceed. And I've got some lovely memories of what some of my caucus colleagues said about it. Um, And then after the 84 election, [00:04:00] uh, we, um, drafted and I introduced the homosexual law reform bill. Um, there's only one thing I want to say. And that is people often say, What was the single biggest thing in in actually getting it through? Well, when I knew that when it was the day it was introduced, there were no the numbers weren't there for it to be passed. People were just being sporting. And, you know, gentlemen's agreement vote for the first reading, and so MP S needed permission to vote for [00:04:30] it. And that meant they had to feel comfortable in their electorate. And that meant we needed a public education. It was actually an information campaign. And the single biggest thing I think, in changing people's mind was visibility of the gay community and all of the people that came out during the campaign, which was a really brave thing to do, especially for the for the guys, because that was illegal and just hundreds of people all over the country. And suddenly New Zealanders started seeing [00:05:00] that, uh, this wasn't going to be the end of Western civilization, although some might have said that was a good idea in other respects. But, um actually oh, my gosh, people I work with or people in my family, actually, and and it was kind of a revelation for people to see, uh, that gay people and lesbians, although they kind of might have thought they were more familiar with the lesbian community because at least it wasn't a criminal element, but that these people were [00:05:30] just like everyone else. And I think that was the key kind of thing that that that happened, that allowed New Zealanders who were full of preconceptions and prejudices to say, Oh yeah, OK, and then seeing what the other side was saying, kind of, Uh uh, we can't have people, ordinary New Zealanders demonised. So that was probably the key thing. Well, well, [00:06:00] I, I guess that the the thing which looking back on it is most impressive to me is how different life is for gay men now than it was then. It it it was it was very difficult to be publicly gay and do a real job back then and and And that that changed. That changed very, very rapidly. And [00:06:30] so you had as one of the perhaps most significant immediate results of homosexual law reform this rapid rise of a of a professional gay cast in the public service and all sorts of other parts of society, Uh, that that very open and and and very assertive. Um, and I think that a lot of people who are not part of that have also benefited [00:07:00] from a, um a much A much easier, um, a much lower level of of prejudice. Which isn't to say that, uh, there isn't enormous prejudice in not public prejudice. It's interesting. We've learned that it's not proper to be homophobic, but there's a lot of homophobia in families and, of [00:07:30] course, among teenagers. Uh, and, uh, the worst place to be gay in New Zealand now is in high schools. Uh, and, uh, we have a responsibility to to to do something about that. What was important was not really the law change. I know the law change was absolutely crucial because it was symbolic of the other changes. But it was the fight [00:08:00] around the law change, uh, and the and the and the massive public education campaign. And I think that's what marks the New Zealand experience off as different from experiences of other countries. This 16 month public campaign, where we were the news every night, it [00:08:30] was exhausting. It really was for all of us. But for, like, every lesbian and gay person in the country, I think was exhausted. And and that wasn't without its costs. You know, we knew as this was happening, that in a way, the campaign that we were leading was leading to suicides. Uh, and somehow [00:09:00] there was nothing to be done or very little. I mean, we did you do what you can in these things, but it it it was, Was it it it It was a a nasty calculation that we kind of didn't. We were trapped that the suicides were gonna go on and on and on. No, this is only and that they are only emblematic, emblematic of of of other kinds of felt, hurt and oppression. You know, there, there, there's lots of other things. [00:09:30] So you know that that's that's the broad setting for me. Um, and it was a matter of building the biggest possible alliance. It was important that the Labour Party become on side. It was important to get trade unions which are not naturally, uh, the most friendly to at that stage. [00:10:00] Uh, and that was partly work that was done then. And I I saw the a crucial layer of it is Labour Party women. I I My My calculation was that the most important strategic ally was Labour Party women. The the The other thing, of course, is that, um even though it was was hard work, [00:10:30] there was some really good fun. And, um, there's lots of stories of wonderful kind of things which happened, and crazy confrontations with Norman Jones or some of the other opponents. Um, that, um yeah, I suppose they'll be recorded some time, but, um, just amusing stuff I would just add to add to that that part of the reason for some of [00:11:00] the suicides was because one of the tactics of the anti was, uh, the construction of this petition against the bill, which was very nastily, uh, praised. And, uh, it was taken by the Salvation Army. I've never forgiven them nor given them a ever since. I think that action was completely unforgivable for a church. They took the petition door to door throughout the country, and they had stands in the street, and so did various other so-called religious bodies. [00:11:30] Now, as a consequence, and and the petition was taken into workplaces, it was taken into old age homes. It was taken into schools, and the reason for many of those suicides was that people in some small towns the petition would come in. And if you're not, if you don't sign it against the bill, you might be queer. So people would sign, gave me a lesbian to sign, and they'd go home and just go through an utter crisis. And that caused a lot of suicides. And we knew [00:12:00] that. And that's one of the reasons for trying to do the public campaign in a way that was good humoured so that we didn't precipitate violence. So the street marches we had. We had balloons and people singing, and a lot of other people joined in on such a march because it's almost like a parade. But there were placards and there were serious messages. And when we had, uh, one of my favourite actions was when we what what the anti were doing the so called Coalition for Concerned Citizens. That's the sort of [00:12:30] name these American inspired fundamentalists, because the money came from America. Yeah, the money came from America and they funded, uh, this campaign here, and this was their first attempt to do that. And subsequently they went on and did it in the islands successfully. And they have done it very successfully in Uganda. That is why that stuff is happening. They went on and did it elsewhere. They tried to do it here and lost. We didn't really think about the fact that they were going to do it elsewhere. Or maybe we could have. We should have. We [00:13:00] were too exhausted to get into an international kind of thing, but that's what they did. And there's people analysing that now through the that that's where they did it and they were successful there and those poor people. It's terrible, But one of the things they hired things like the town Hall and held these huge meetings. So we went and broke up. The meeting infiltrated the meeting and we did it with, um, we had a whole lot of funny songs. We sang and we had signs like you'd have on a television programme that said Laugh. So people became hysterical. [00:13:30] Mostly, the audiences were stacked. Actually, people became hysterical, so people like more of us than them usually. So Norm Jones was trying to stand on the platform and say, Get back to your and the whole place is in an uproar of laughter and that was good. That worked well for us. There was another time when we we bought the meeting because we were heckling and so on. And this Norm Jones said something like, You know, we paid for this. If you want to speak [00:14:00] as much as this, you've got to pay $300 or 500. No, it was only $100. I think it was a small amount, actually, and I said I, I just put done And there was What if you're gonna pay, you got to pay right now and said, Oh, yeah. People give us the money and collected the money immediately in front of her by this scene of of, of collecting money and presented the money and took over the meeting. Um, and you know, those weird situations that happen. But [00:14:30] Norman Jones, who was the leader really of, of, of of in parliament. Uh uh, He he he didn't. He refused to debate me. He wasn't. He he he didn't want He didn't want to get too close to your bill in case it was catching. Well, no. Eventually, he agreed There was this Australian, um the Willacy programme decided that they they they would they they and he he agreed that as [00:15:00] long on the conditions never showed in New Zealand, they arranged this debate. And so I as he came in, I put my hand out and you saw him go to be polite and then realise that he shouldn't. And it was at that point that II I talked about how he was more obsessed about sodomy than anyone else I had ever met. Well, he called himself the mouth from the south. He was family background was, but particularly at that time, [00:15:30] it didn't really seem relevant. He was just the most appallingly atrocious man. Um, and Bill's right, that obsessed with sodomy and that Oh, terrible. With about women, anything at all. Yeah, it was a terrible man in a whole lot of ways. Yeah, it wasn't just this, but yeah, this was just a lightning rod, actually, in some ways for him. But, um, some of he and some of the others in parliament and also obviously in the select committee, which went on for a while [00:16:00] with the petition as well just came along and rehearsed all these terrible practises that they said, you know, gay men got up to and if they're thinking so are these guys getting off on this or what? It was kind of irrelevant. And this went on day after day, night after night. And it was pretty awful, actually. And how their minds were thinking that was all they could think about. It wasn't, wasn't It was. [00:16:30] They were pretty weird people, actually. And of course, later on, we saw what you know. The Christian fundamentalist representative and Well, not very much later. Graham, capable, of course, ended up in jail, which was a good thing. Um, Norm had a brain tumour and died. Um, So, um, you know, these were terrible people and the Salvation Army were in donkey deep. Um, like many people, I have never supported them since I wouldn't give them a scent. Um, nothing, I'm afraid. Even though some of them now are pretty [00:17:00] good people. Uh, sorry. There's plenty of other good charities to To to support. You don't have to support them. Um, but we had it was the religious element was interesting because there was a huge divide in the more traditional churches. Like, you know, the Presbyterians and the Catholic Church and others. There were groups on one side or the other, and it caused ferocious debates, Um, through the whole kind of religious community, um, which actually haven't totally gone away. [00:17:30] And some of them they're still debating whether they should have gay bishops or priests or whatever. Yeah, women women are. I mean, the whole thing is still there. Yeah, we were We were so innocent. We we were We were caught on the hop. I mean, it and we didn't have very strong organisation. We we had the gay task force which wasn't well organised. Um, we [00:18:00] lesbians were more concerned as to whether there'd be this kind of opposition because in 1984 at the women's forums which the Labour Government had set up when it came into into office, Um and these were forums held throughout the country to discuss the formation of the Ministry of Women's Affairs and various issues pertinent to women, and these were held right throughout the country. And lesbians, of course, had attended these forums. And to our shock and horror, they there were all these women clutching Bibles, wearing hats [00:18:30] and scarves and scarves, and and one of them, for example, they went to the lesbian, uh, forum. There was a lesbian forum and a lot of lesbians hadn't gone to it because it was up against the domestic violence forum. And, you know, lesbians were all involved with refuge and different things. And these women took over the lesbian forum and passed a motion that lesbianism was was an abomination in the eyes of the Lord. I have to say that the government didn't take much notice of [00:19:00] this was this was at the Palmerston. This was at the Palmerston Forum, so lesbians had to quickly hold another forum in the afternoon to kind of revoke this. So because we sort of had the experience of that I remember raising that with the task force before the bill was introduced and saying, you know, do you think maybe something's going on and these people might, you know, do something about this and the people said, Oh, no, you know, they'd only be interested in, you know, being anti abortion and things like that. Well, they were out in force, but we hadn't really strategized, so we had to do it very quickly, and we were kind of having to invent things [00:19:30] on the on the go as we saw them doing pretty well on the go and we did at the beginning. Um, I was keen not to have a big campaign before it was Bill was introduced because I knew that we didn't have the numbers in Parliament at that stage and and I knew that there was this kind of gentleman's agreement tradition that every bill gets a first reading, and if they thought about it too far in advance, and there'd been any publicity, we might not have even got it introduced. They would have voted it out then. So it was We just [00:20:00] completely it got on the order paper and and off it went. Um, but then, of course, just holy hell broke out and literally Holy hell. And, um, there was huge organisation very fast, actually. The the gay task force in Wellington, Auckland and then in other parts of the country got mobilised, um, out of the coalition for the Yeah, there were. There were a number of different strands and people had different. I mean, there were We [00:20:30] wanted it to be as broad as possible so that anybody who wherever they were or whoever they were, could actually join in something. So things like hug were formed. Um, deliberately actually by, um Well, a couple of people and, um and to say, OK, there's another stream of people there. There were groups formed within churches and within this and that and the other, um, and forming groups. [00:21:00] We had to we had to have platforms for people to join and show their support. We had we had to have groups and because otherwise you just have individuals. So some of those groups weren't a lot of people, but then they would kind of snowball. The other difficulty was, it's pre Internet, you know, Uh, it's pretty cheap phone. Everything was done by snail mail, too. So we were trying to raise money to make phone calls between the cities to try to get, you know, some kind of coordination. But one of the things that I must say here [00:21:30] is that we had fantastic, superb help right from the beginning from the, um yes, we did. Yeah. And they we contacted the immediately that that that point they were the IG a the International Gay Association, the International Lesbian Gay Association. We had a New Zealand representative, Sylvia Bore, who was in Amsterdam. She said, You're in serious trouble. I will set everything in motion. And she did, and we ended up with some very, very I. I went to a conference conference in Canada, got some very good connections, and we ended up in a situation [00:22:00] where we could phone uh, we'd say, Look, this man's, we'd phone New York and say, this man's turned up um, you know, who's he? And they'd say, Oh, this is so And so He works for the Archdiocese of New York, so we could rush notes into Parliament to France. And who could say, Oh, yes. Well, that's who this is. And and they thought we had this huge organisation, But really, we did it with no money at all, right? I mean, we did it. You know, we got some rich gay men gave us bits of money, but it was It was it was [00:22:30] a minor amount of money compared to ads in the paper, too. I mean, it was it was, actually, it grew very fast into a huge, comprehensive national campaign. And in my office, I was really lucky because I was actually one of the party whips and that that was really handy for another reason. Because it gave me access to who was on in the house that night and who wasn't. And this used to come in every Wednesday, which was the day they did private members bills. And I knew who was the way and who wasn't. And we did a lot of trading, and we'd send people after [00:23:00] some MP S and say they have to come back in, or I mean, we did a lot of work on making sure we always had the numbers, and we nearly lost it a couple of times. Um, so that was helpful, but the whips office became a kind of a headquarters. Uh, and the parliamentary mail system. God bless it. Um, you know, I just because I was an MP, I could write all this stuff and send it out. And it was a bill that was going through Parliament. It was perfectly legitimate to do that. But we did. I mean, there were downsides, too, because [00:23:30] the nutters and the fundamentalists were very threatening. So we got lots of death threats and stuff. And so my poor little young lads, who was the male out now got trained in how to detect letter bombs and stuff like that. And I mean, it was pretty horrible. Um, but it was massive. And every every Wednesday when the bill was being debated, the office would just be full of the people who were helping. And there were lots of we did have huge information needs. So we could say What [00:24:00] what's this What's that? And Phil was really great because he worked in the library and he'd get his data and and we'd use it. And also when we had the big public rallies, depending on if the if we were sharing a platform, If it was, you know, both sides, then we kind of knew what they were going to say. So we had our, um, argument. So I became very familiar with the old and the New Testament and stuff like that. Yes, that was a big part [00:24:30] on both sides. The anti said, Look, if we if we decriminalise, it'll just be rampant. Everybody will be dying of age. It will be the biggest epidemic of anything. And we said, actually, if we don't decriminalise, people will die because they won't go for medical help and we can't educate. And I mean, in the end, I mean, it's pretty clear to me that I mean, we were told you're mad to try to to to have homosexual [00:25:00] law reform in AIDS hysteria, but it won it. It it it actually, it actually I think was one of the main things to turn public opinion our way and that just in terms of chronology. For those of you who are visitors. I wrote it down because I can't even remember dates. March 85 It was introduced that wonderful vote 51 24 and the silly, silly things didn't know what they were doing. Thank God. Um, petition [00:25:30] launched by four famous members of Parliament, Bray, Brook Lee Jones and War Bank, and then taken over by the Salvation Army. And some gentlemen called Keith Hay and Peter Tate. You remember them? And then, um, that then we had more than 2000 submissions to the actual bill. Um, And then they heard that in the petition in the select committee, Um, the petition was presented Sorry in in September. Um, and [00:26:00] the bill? Yeah, Bill was reported back in October with no recommendation from the select committee. I mean, they clearly weren't ever going to make a recommendation because it was split and they were too scared to recommend. And we had then the second reading and all the way through, they tried to filibuster and stop it being voted on or get it thrown out. So there was always these points of order. It was just nerve wracking. I had to be there the whole time managing the numbers in the house. And then we had the committee stages which dragged [00:26:30] on for a few months. And we lost part two in the committee stages, which was the, um, Human Rights Amendment. And that was a complete insurance policy by MP saying, Well, we we have to vote for decriminalisation, but we kind of have a dollar each way. And we won't vote for the human rights part, which, of course subsequently did get passed some years later. And then it was, um, passed in July 86th and some MP S stood in the back of the lobby to see whether we had [00:27:00] the numbers. And when they saw we had the numbers, they voted against it. I know who they are. They will be named. What was that? Oh, yeah, And that was the really interesting thing. And do you know how we achieved it? Because in the committee stages the opposition the the MP S, voting against it thought [00:27:30] that if it was 16, nobody in their right mind would vote for this bill and they actually voted for 16 because they thought that was so radical that it wouldn't get through any further readings. So I mean, quite honestly, you know, that was the miracle of the whole thing. Yeah, during the process, obviously there was no willingness to compromise over the 18 and 16 of the community. That's exactly they say. Yeah, but [00:28:00] obviously we will accept civil union and things that are willing to compromise on what we really want. In my view, the compromise on marriage was a stupid mistake that we had to go along with once it had got to a certain stage, because the right wing was so mobilised against it that you had to You had to be beat the right wing, but we should never [00:28:30] have fought for, um, a civil Union I. I believe it was, and I said so quite publicly. We had church out the latest manifestation of fundamentalism in New Zealand, and it was. It's organised by a guy, a guy called Brian Tamaki, who's Maori and who now styles himself as Bishop Tamaki. Probably Pope Tamaki shortly, Um, and it's a classic fundamentalist religion, people paying a lot of money, you know, in the churches, [00:29:00] and it is very attractive to Maori people. There's a lot of young Maori in it. And then they marched against the civil Union bill. It was scary stuff because it was young Maori guys wearing black shirts in the streets, and that was another big mistake on their part, Actually. Thank goodness, um, but scary stuff that there's this whole new generation of kids now being sucked into religious fundamentalism for Well, let's you [00:29:30] so I mean, you know, we know why people go for that sort of thing. Um, but and that's why I mean, I wasn't part of that debate, but I can understand why the community said in the end, Well, we've got to win this one, even if it's not. But you know what we want. Um, because of that one again, it would have been a push back of a whole lot of things. So, uh, not much. He was anti. [00:30:00] He was always anti funnily enough. Yeah, um, but he wasn't one of the kind of leading organisers of the thing. Um, he was pretty vicious as he can be. Um and, um, but I, I don't recall him being one of the leading lights. No, no, my my best comeback on him was later on in Parliament. They used to have an annual parliamentary debate, a fun debate between the press gallery and the MP S. And everyone [00:30:30] used to have to dress up if you're in the debating team. And I was in it one year and he was in it and we had this somebody just the day of the debate brings in this huge pile of dress up clothes. And I said, Look at this. And it was a fairy outfit and we got John into the fairy outfit and and there was a pair of wings and I pulled off one of them and I left the right wing up. And I said, Look, John, you're a right wing fairy and and I don't think he even knew what I said. I know, but some of you will appreciate [00:31:00] why that was more appropriate for him. Yes, he did. I have a photo of John as a right wing fairy which has been published subsequently. It's been used in the people who were really against it home. It was sport. Yes, I think you're right. Yeah, [00:31:30] you know, kind of obsessive. Yeah, I think that's a good characterization of it, Actually, yeah. Yeah. It was totally unthinking and uncaring. Yeah, Yes, they were. That's what they were worried about their vote. And so we did a lot of work in those electorates with churches with [00:32:00] local politicians. And we went, Yeah, we leaflet it, and we did a whole lot of stuff. And interestingly, there was a by-election while all this was on down in Timaru. Remember that? And I, I was forbidden to show my face there by the party hierarchy. Who thought this was this is in the South Island for the visitors just south of Christchurch, Rural, very conservative. And, um, they said, Oh, God, we can't have any talk about homosexual law reform. And our candidate was quite [00:32:30] liberal. Um and they blamed our loss on that. It wasn't that at all. And I said to them later, if we'd been able to campaign on it as we had another electorate, we would gone in and actually talked the issue over. I think we would have actually turned the electorate, but they wouldn't even let me go near the electorate because they were so worried that I would lose votes for them. Yeah. Gotten the numbers. I knew somebody asked 49. 44. Thank you. [00:33:00] I always get the numbers wrong for the different readings. Yeah. Yeah, It was close. Yeah, we were lobbying right till the end. We were Yeah, they did. Yeah, they knew or they didn't vote. Not everyone voted, and some people were deliberately away. Some people never voted in any way. And I spent hours talking to those MP S saying, Well, you know why? And some of them would say, Oh, well, if the age of consent were just 18, I'd be [00:33:30] all right. Yeah, all right. If it had been 18, they would have said 20. I mean, a couple of homosexual conservative members of Parliament who voted against the bill. Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And we knew everybody. We we actually had quite significant data on all of the MP who are opposing it, which is really helpful. And we got people invited out for [00:34:00] dinner on the nights the votes were on or invited to speak at things all over the country we had, you know, we knew every Wednesday we had to get certain people out of the house and we would have miles ahead. We had invitations in Auckland or Invercargill to to speak that night so they could never get back to Wellington if there was a significant vote. And so there was all highly organised. In that sense. Yeah, we were We learned very quickly what we had to do. [00:34:30] Do you think there's any danger or Oh, my God. II. I think there's always a danger in every society of things going backward. Um, as an historian, I'm very interested in the fact that, um, you had in the Weimar Republic, you know, one of the one of the most liberal, uh, climates for both gay men and lesbians that we still have not seen a society [00:35:00] as liberal as Germany was, uh, in that in that period. I mean, you had a you had a You had the Humanitarian Scientific committee founded in the in the 18 nineties. Uh, you had, uh, the World League for Sexual Reform. You had conferences held every year. You had dozens and dozens of, uh, magazines and newsletters and clubs. Um, And yet when the Nazis came to power in 1923 it was gone. Uh, and one [00:35:30] of the things that last year I went to, um, the Holocaust commemoration at Parliament organised by the Jewish community and one of the things that, um, one of the people said, uh, I found very important, Which was that given how liberal and accepting of the Jews in their Jewish communities, Germany was, the fact that it could happen in Germany meant it could happen anywhere. [00:36:00] And I think that's a message for us as well. You know, I think that you you, you know, the the the price of democracy and the price of progress is eternal vigilance. You know, if you don't keep up to it and you keep watchful, it'll go because those other people are always there, you know, they're like rust. They never go away. The interesting thing is that fundamentalism is growing more than any other religion. We know that New Zealand New [00:36:30] Zealanders don't have much religion, which I think is good. They're fairly secular, actually, which is good, but the one religion that's growing is fundamentalism. And, um so we haven't even got the against that the bull walk of the old established churches, because they just they're fading actually, um, people are losing interest and the fundamentals are much more aggressive, I think. I think that's something we need to be careful about in all walks of life. [00:37:00] Yeah. Please, That that was a possibility. That's really scary. Yeah, I don't think that I mean, it's unlikely that this this lot of politicians would want to want to, uh, preside over a roll back. But you know, politicians are very disposable commodities, and also [00:37:30] we've seen in times of a major disaster, what happens like Canterbury. Basically, the government's taken over, and that might be fine for the disaster relief and and and, you know, the reconstruction. But they had previously taken over the regional council down there. And, um, a lot of people now are saying quite well, people I would have thought better are saying, Actually, it's a lot easier without democracy, and that's the scariest thing I've heard from significant figures, [00:38:00] public figures saying that in Canterbury it's been easy without democracy. This was pre earthquake, and, um so we only need, you know, something bigger on a bigger scale, and suddenly there's an excuse for doing away with representative government, and then those people with the other agendas roll in on the back of that. Not necessarily in the front, but on the back of it. So, I mean, not only that kind of, um, disaster, like an earthquake, but a financial meltdown. Uh, and then you start getting [00:38:30] people wanting to scapegoat then the religious what the religious do at that point to say, God is punishing us because we tolerate homosexuals and we've allowed abortions and women are out of control. I wish, God damn it, you know, And they look for and they look for the A and some people believe that. But other people will look to strong government and those kinds of situations to get them out of once they haven't got a job and they can't pay their mortgage. And everything's awful. And there's a terrible [00:39:00] disaster. Those are the ingredients which allow these kind of people to come through like a AAA large increase in unemployment and some and some very publicly privileged gay men out there and how easy it would be to blame gay men for taking our jobs. One more. One more question. [00:39:30] Just one second. Ah! Oh, is that all? Oh, thank you for coming. Thank you for coming.

IRN: 310
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_sunil_pant_keynote.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004129
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089423
TITLE: Sunil Pant - AsiaPacific Outgames
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VOICES: Maryan Street; Sunil Pant
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Blue Diamond Society; Ilott Theatre; Maryan Street; Nepal; Sunil Pant; activism; human rights; transcript online
DATE: 18 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Sunil Pant delivers a keynote presentation. Sunil is introduced by Maryan Street. The presentation happened during the third plenary session: Movement building for change.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, [00:00:30] in English. I have simply welcomed everybody, not only to this meeting, but to this, to this agenda of human rights. This morning, I've also particularly welcomed the leaders here, and I don't see anybody who's not a leader. Actually, I have particularly welcomed visitors to a New Zealand. [00:01:00] I've acknowledged the organisers of this event both this particular forum, but also, uh, the out games in general and then in Maori fashion greeted everybody three times. It's a great pleasure for me to be here. Uh, I was delighted to take, uh, take up the invitation to to [00:01:30] be here. Of course. Uh, Grant Robertson could just as well have been doing this job as, uh, as MP for Wellington Central and the chair of our Rainbow Labour Caucus. However, he, in a funny swap, is visiting my my town of Nelson today. So we've, uh, swapped venues, but we're still waving the flag. It's a It's a great pleasure to to welcome our guests this morning. I'd like to, [00:02:00] uh, welcome Sunil Punt, Felicia Brown, Acton and Grace Poo at the table. And, uh, and I will do a little introduction of each of them as they come up to speak simply this morning, we're going to hear from each of these wonderful people we are going to hear about their experiences in building and promoting human rights for the LGBTI communities in their areas and regions. [00:02:30] And we will hear basically from them about anything they wish to talk to us about that is connected to the human rights agenda. But that will not be difficult for them. So it's a It's a particular pleasure to, uh, to welcome you all here today. The way it's going to run is that they will have about 20 minutes or so, uh, to speak 25 minutes. I will, uh I will tell them when they are within five minutes of of 25 and so they will need to wind up. We will hear from [00:03:00] all three of them and then have a time for questions and discussion. After that, there will be a couple of roving microphones at that time so that you will be able to make yourself heard. You only need to attract my attention. Don't worry. The men will get to speak as well. Um, it's with great pleasure that I I first of all introduce Sir Neil Punt Soil is a member of the Constituent [00:03:30] Assembly in the parliament of Nepal. He is the coordinator of the Parliamentary Committee on Environment, Climate Change and Disaster Risk Reduction. And if that weren't enough, he's also a member of the Fundamental Rights Committee of the Constituent Assembly of Nepal. He has a longstanding commitment to human rights. He's a signatory to the Yogyakarta principles and was the the petitioner of the right to the Supreme [00:04:00] Court against the government of Nepal, demanding protection and defence of equal rights of LGBTI in Nepal. And this resulted in that court making the historic decision to protect and defend LGBTI rights in recognition of his tireless work. He's been the recipient of several awards, including the Monette Howard's Award in 2009, the Felipe de Souza Award [00:04:30] in 2007, and The Utopia Award in 2005. He's the founder and executive director of the Blue Diamond Society, which is an NGO working on human rights, sexual health and HIV and a I DS. It is with great pleasure that I welcome Sunil to the podium, Kilda. [00:05:00] Thank you. Um, Madam chair. Also MP, um, distinguished speaker Panellist and friends. Um, thank you for your welcome. It's great to be here today. And to be part of this conference, let me acknowledge the conference coordinating group and and funders [00:05:30] in In particularly Barry sitting somewhere here who have been in a email contact to me to bring me over here and also the rainbow. Wellington. Without their support, I wouldn't be here today. Let me quickly, um, take you some of the picture I have put together, uh, from, uh, from the inception of Blue Diamond Society, which, [00:06:00] uh, will talk about the photo itself evident to speak for the issues, the problems, the struggles, the justice culture pageants, prides and lives of of LGBTI in Nepal. We basically started from scratch. Um, and I think this picture is is one of the few, uh, when we started blue dia in society [00:06:30] early years. A lot of violence is until 2007. So this is in 2003 that two mates were called for the male to female third genders in Nepal who have been arrested and then raped and brutally beaten up by the armed police force. This is another attempted murder of a transgender person by another army [00:07:00] officer. Now the meetings we are trying to celebrate New Year in 60 to 2062. We are in 2068. Now, the year he is also doing outreach peer work of the raising awareness of condom and HIV Um, he was beaten up on his face and then [00:07:30] the frequent one of the picture of frequent arbitrary arrest of LGBTI is in Nepal. This is the International Day against homophobia. We started celebrating from 2006 and it's at the public space and police was asking what we are doing about. And then we explained the police what we were doing. OK, uh and then we, uh the previous picture, [00:08:00] which slipped quickly, was about the filing, a petition to the court Supreme Court. And then we were waiting for the decision after the court decision. This is the first legal ID that, uh, was given to a third gender person. Bish uh and, uh, in the column of gender, it's written third, that's in Nepali, [00:08:30] and then two pictures of various lobbying, empowerment, training, leadership building. Um, this is a transgender. So sitting with the prime minister on the International AIDS Day last year various leadership training, uh, how to do public speaking, um, in line your vision with the organisation vision. So all the LGBTI [00:09:00] take place and strategize their own way forward, uh, part of several, uh, leadership courses. And also they are trained how to do a, uh, public speaking of the training. And this is a sit on protest demanding legal ID. And this is another interaction programme. The Pride Festival [00:09:30] Beauty pageants. This is the picture of pride Festival we did last year 2010. Nepal also officially promotes tourism. And the Minister, Tourism Minister of Nepal welcomed gay Les visitors in his masses. In one of those days, we also have a transgender choir or queer choir. They call and they sing beautifully. Like we saw the [00:10:00] Maoris last night. And we have several cultures, other cultures, uh, deities and some of also the pan, uh, deities paintings I have here. Uh, very graphic. This is Marie cultures. It still exists. Uh uh, uh. Born male. Very feminine or third gender in dancing and performing dances called. This [00:10:30] is, uh, uh, Hindu and Buddhist deities, uh, closely associated with gender. Uh, mostly third gender or various various gender rules. This is also the is, uh, both male and female form standing wide location. Also considered to be neither male nor female. [00:11:00] Um, Kumari, as you see you know, in modern days, Dr Drag Queen Kumari, this is another, uh, paintings or the these are widely You can, uh, you know, postcards and stuff in Nepal. And, um if you worship this goddess, you, uh, get all the bliss and all the satisfaction. That's what they believe. The [00:11:30] naked picture of a woman 30 should be also another one that whatever you wish fulfilled And this is the location and other paintings. Uh, this one is the original one from I think, fourth century BC a Buddhist deity of compassion Uh, more glimpses of Nepal. It's basically a corner Stories on the [00:12:00] courtyard of Nepali village home house, Uh, mountain close, not far from Kathmandu, taken by myself And this is Buddha Buddhist in Kathmandu. And for your information, we have pink mountain travels and tours. Yeah, So [00:12:30] I, um let me now move to my, uh, speech. I value you all, uh who have gathered here, the organisations and people you represent the roles you play and potential you have to shape the world of tomorrow. In particular, I believe that the Asia Pacific Out Games organisers have a vital role to play in accelerating the process of the LGBTI [00:13:00] rights in Asia Pacific through such games and such human rights conferences. I'm supportive of the missing. I believe our success in Asia Pacific's success. I have come this morning to talk with you on one of the last probably last issues of human rights in our time. That is ending discrimination over human diversity and ensuring full freedom [00:13:30] of all beings. And New Zealand is the place to talk about ending discrimination and preserving full freedom. Because here on this soil, discrimination against humans by humans on the ground of so called superiority the power of evil that tried to destroy civilization has been tackled successfully by the natives. The Maoris and the roots of human freedom have long ago struck deep, and [00:14:00] here they have been richly nourished. The decisive importance of liberty, freedom and dignity of LGBTI people is yet to be fully recognised. Still, by quite a few member states of the United Nations. Concern for the prevention and promotion of human rights and fundamental freedom stands at our hearts, regardless of human diversity. We [00:14:30] are working hard to boost the progress of the LGBTI rights, equality and equal opportunity because growing freedom is ultimately what will provide LGBTI and our families the job, security, shelter, education, health care, freedom and choices that we aspire to and deserve. It's the desire to build a brighter future, which lies at the heart of Blue Diamond Society's relation relationship relationship [00:15:00] agreement with the AC Pacific LGBT rights movements, a movement needs. Visionary leaders and visionary leaders are the builders of a new town working with imagination, insight and boldness. They work with the power of dedication with a higher hope, higher purpose. They are social innovators and changes and seeing the big picture and thinking strategically, [00:15:30] we share a commitment to improving the lives and prospects of all LGBTI and indeed of all Nepalese. And our confidence and courage has enabled us to work across a number of fronts to achieve that good relationships are the heart of effective movement. Building the movements embody a deeply caring approach to people seeing them as their greatest asset. The most effective leaders at the movement [00:16:00] are responsive to the real needs of people and they develop participative strategies to include people in designing their own futures. We have forged a strong relationship and one which I think has had a very positive impact on the work of Nepali government and the lives of Nepali LGBTI. In saying that, I recognise that while the government can provide the environment and policy settings for success, ultimately it is us, [00:16:30] the LGBT activists, entrepreneurs and innovators, the workers who will generate greater equality and wealth and growth in Nepali democracy and in its economy. Similarly, we should look to ourselves for the ideas energy that will fuel development for Asia Pacific, including my own country Nepal and for all of us. So the question for such a conference is how can you, working with government [00:17:00] and your wider community, support LGBTI to grow their asset base and the benefits that flow from that? How can we unlock and boost the potential value in LGBT held assets? I view the AC Pacific Out games as an excellent network like Blue Diamond Society in Nepal for bringing together the voices, the people, the ideas who together can answer those questions. We know there [00:17:30] is a great foundation to build on. Great things have already been achieved in Asia. In Asia Pacific. In the 10 years from 2001 to 2011 in Nepal, the out LGBT have grown up from one to more than 300,000. The situation had changed from violence to respect. The rich has expanded from Ratna Park, a tiny park at the centre of Kathmandu, to [00:18:00] a remote district in the far west of Nepal and made the recent governments of Nepal to support LGBT issues at national and local levels as well as international levels. The progress reflects a lot of hard work and a huge contribution by all Nepali LGBTI and with significant support from our sisters and brothers abroad. It reflects the flourishing of LGBTI movements and the development of new ideas [00:18:30] and ways to ways of doing things from far west to east of Nepal, from Tarai, the plains in the south of Nepal to the Himal, the mountains in the north from from cities to the villages. In part, it also reflects the successful transfer of leadership via the training, coaching dialogue one on one conversation and forming the foundation of sexual and gender minorities. Nepal [00:19:00] back in 2007, which have 30 organisation as a member. I want to talk a little about the process today. I want to reflect on where we have come to so far in the last decade and what that means for LGBT social, economic and political development. We take it as a great deal of importance on the rights and opportunities, negotiation process and on completing [00:19:30] fair and final settlement. Not because we believe it is the most important issue for LGBTI, but because like many of you, our goal is to move beyond grievance towards the brighter, more prosperous future we all seek. So we give everything to build the new constitution and we only accept the new constitution when it has guaranteed full rights, equality and non discrimination for LGBTI S in Nepal. [00:20:00] We have seen the draught criminal and civil law prepared by the Law Ministry and we condemn the process that it excluded us from the drafting process. We also deeply concerned with the proposal that draughts have made in the draught civil and criminal code. They don't acknowledge transgender. We call them Third Genders in Nepal. We refute the draught law because it says only men and women can marry and as a heterosexual couple [00:20:30] one. This is unacceptable and we can't let the law ministry take it forward when it indicates LGBTI people are criminal, which is against the Supreme Court decision and against the draught constitutional provisions. The state must not dictate to us to live lives against our will and nature. The new laws must allow LGBTI live life with freedom, dignity and opportunities. It's that [00:21:00] positive, forward looking part of the draught, constitution and legal change process that another ministry, Ministry of Women, Children and social welfare taking ahead excites me. We must stop looking in the rear view mirror at grievances past and in a state, sift our energies and focus towards building a stronger foundation for the future. Don't you think it will be wise for all the governments in [00:21:30] Asia Pacific to focus on development, how to tackle poverty, how to bring people and communities together in a state of targeting the LGBTI communities who have nothing to survive? Movement builders execute with confidence successful movement builders know where they want to go and how to get there. They believe in themselves and others believe in them too. The result is teamwork, shared goals and improved morale. [00:22:00] The last 10 years In 2000 starting at Out Initiative in Ratna Park, 2001 registering Blue Diamond Society in 2002 came out started from myself in 2003. Starting to address human rights violations of LGBTI S 2004. Taking the human rights abuse matters to the Union in 2005. Expand the programme in Kathmandu [00:22:30] and Paton and Pok and Nepal Guns five of the major cities in Nepal. 2006 Joining and leading the People's Movement. Janan Dolan second 2007. Taking the government to the Court 2008 Standing for the Constituent Assembly election and more expansion of networks and programmes 2009. Introducing the leadership programme working with district district local governments working with the political parties [00:23:00] 2010 working with the ministries and 2011 will become another milestone setting year. With our joint efforts, we will make this year one of the most historic one again. New LGBT leaders, not only from Nepal but from other countries in Asia Pacific should see the experience of Nepali LGBT leadership who still stand and fight from the year 2000, 2001 and how much we have achieved in the intervening period. [00:23:30] We, especially the new generation, the LGBTI, don't wish to spend more time and money on litigation and negotiation. It should be ensured by the new Law and new Constitution. We all want to focus on careers development, contribute and make a lot of progress and move on, and you should focus towards that and work hard to achieve that as well as helping restore the honour of the LGBTI. The constitutional [00:24:00] guarantee of equality will help build a future progress. A further progress base for LGBTI in Nepal We are moving on from a time when LGBT leadership and resources have been heavily focused on resolving historic cultural and legal injustices, and we are fast moving to an era in which that energy will be increasingly devoted to political and economic development and business opportunities [00:24:30] for the present and future specific achievements that need to be mentioned include implementing the historic Supreme Court decision made in 21st December 2007. Declaring all LGBTI are natural people and deserve equal rights and opportunities, our right to life, freedom and dignity was guaranteed by the court. It now must be translated into national laws and [00:25:00] into the new constitution. The first major milestone to be achieved within the process have already been marked, including the memorandum of understanding between Blue Diamond Society and Ministry of Women, Children and Social Welfare to eliminate all the discriminator laws against us. The same sex marriage Committee is considering giving marriage equality to all LGBTI in Nepal. The gender equality bill also [00:25:30] must include LGBTI S that the Law Ministry is preparing to present to the parliament. How can the gender equality bill be called the gender equality Bill and not talk about third genders or transgender? I seriously recognise that we need to work with the with this existing system and people within law ministry in Nepal in a great deal. History will judge us on our efforts to establish equality for all, but it will also [00:26:00] judge those from the governments who are in power and who can pass the policies, how fair and just they have been introducing new laws and constitution. Future generation will judge them even more. When we sat in front of the singer DVA, which you saw in the picture the government hub of Nepal and got arrested, it's easy to forget there. There was considerable disquiet from media and [00:26:30] civil society that government was doing injustices to us, the gays, lesbians and transgender, not even issuing citizenship. ID to the to the legal citizens of Nepal media and Civil society and the international community also contributed prominently to highlight the discrimination we have been facing and forced the government to take a step back and we were released and then the prime minister promised that he will issue the [00:27:00] citizenship. ID. The legal ID issues matter as soon as possible. We're waiting for that day as many of you and many of you may know, during our early years, the third gender chair had her throat slit after being raped and 39 Blue Diamond Society members were arrested in 2004 and there were many more such incidents. We had a tremendously difficult time, but we stood [00:27:30] strong and stood unshaken and established ourselves much stronger and force the government to recognise us showed the government that we were not here to vanish in the dark. We are telling them that until we have justice and equality, we will not remain quiet and we will not leave you quietly. My sense as I travel around the country and internationally visiting communities, schools [00:28:00] and homes in that most of the, uh is that most of the members of the societies LGBTI S included want to move the conversation on and accepting us as part of family and society, and live in the Princip principle of live and let live to move to move on. From a conversation that passed injustices to one about how to address LGBTI underachievement [00:28:30] about how to deliver old class education standards to ensure LGBT have the skills and resources we need to succeed and help to ensure that LGBTI Children and families have good jobs and high aspirations. The desire to see LGBTI improve their lot in life, to be better equipped to succeed and to no longer be overrepresented in negative statistics associated [00:29:00] with education, health and crime lay at the heart of why both the national and local parties choose to work together even though neither parties have compelled to do so. I hope that this conference and the support provided by Out Games is a vehicle for LGBT activists to think about how dedication and courage can boost efforts and how can how you can strengthen [00:29:30] your relationship with the wider social sector, especially with your governments. The second big opportunity I would like to see is that more regional allowed games within the Asia Pacific region as Asia Pacific region is vast in many ways and most of the world population resides in Asia Pacific. It's important for LGBTI to make the most of Wellington's time in the spotlight, focusing on [00:30:00] maximising the social, economic and political return of the art games. I also would like to suggest that the out games should serve as a great opportunity for LGBT business to showcase their products and innovative businesses ideas as well as creating connection with international markets. Which brings me to the third opportunity which lies in making the most of Nepal's considerable legal [00:30:30] and constitutional advancement to inspire other countries in the region. I think there is a great potential for LGBTI development and livelihoods to stand together to make the most of these opportunities. Networks like out games are very important in this regard. In closing my presentation today, let me repeat that I think the future of LGBTI S in Asia Pacific is brighter than ever. Organisations like art [00:31:00] games are important vehicles to for bringing the leaders and thinkers together. And conferences like this are a great way of sparking the ideas, aspirations and movements that will lead the way. I wish you all the best for the year ahead and look forward to talking with you this afternoon. Thank you very much. [00:31:30] Hm.

IRN: 384
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_sumithra_chand.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004198
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089492
TITLE: Sumithra Chand
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Sumithra Chand
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); India; Sumithra Chand; Wellington Town Hall; activism; human rights; law
DATE: 17 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Sumithra Chand talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm from India. I live in New Delhi and what brought me to the conference was to present a workshop on the recent decriminalisation process in India. And with that, the possibility of learning more about indigenous people and linking that to cast issues in India. The decriminalisation [00:00:30] process in India. That's a very recent thing, isn't it? Yes, Gareth. It happened in July 2009 and is currently awaiting, uh uh consideration Appellate consideration of the Supreme Court of India. What does that mean? It means that the judgement of the Delhi High Court, which decriminalised consensual same sex relations in private between adults is has been challenged in the Supreme Court of India [00:01:00] and is awaiting a hearing which will be soon next month. And the Supreme Court will finally decide whether or not the judgement of the Delhi High Court remains in the Meanwhile, the judgement continues to have its effect so effectively the decriminalisation remains. Can you tell me about the journey to decriminalisation? Where did that begin? The journey [00:01:30] to decriminalisation began in 1994 with an AIDS group which was called AIDS, and Dolan a B VA filed a petition in the Delhi High Court seeking for repeal of Section 377. Unfortunately, that petition did not survive and was dismissed for lack for [00:02:00] non appearance in about 1998 99 a few years later, in 2001, an NGO working on AIDS issues with men who have sex with men and transgender persons, filed another petition in the same court in the Delhi High Court stating primarily that a law that criminalises same sex sexual conduct is an obstacle to carrying out HIV AIDS intervention work. That [00:02:30] case, which was filed in 2001, was dismissed by the Delhi High Court in 2004 on grounds that well, look, this is an NGO working on HIV AIDS. What local standard does an NGO have? Where are the really affected people? However, this was restored by the Supreme Court of Punjabi said that this is a public interest litigation and it does not matter whether it is brought by an affected person or not. And finally, in 2009, there is a judgement from the Delhi High Court which upheld [00:03:00] the rights of LGBTI uh, persons and decriminalised consensual sex between adults in private, and that's where we are now. Throughout that period, was it just a legal challenge, or were there things like actions like protests and public demonstrations? Was it a very public action again Again, In the early nineties, [00:03:30] Delhi recorded its first public demonstrations on gay rights. So this was before a B VA filed its petition in 1994. And the legal challenge, uh, for, uh, for the rights of LGBTI Q and however many alphabets individuals, uh, has been always supported and sometimes marked by more [00:04:00] prominently by, uh uh, demonstrations, public demonstrations. The people invested in these processes are sometimes the same and sometimes may be different. But, uh, the two, the two courses of action, what happens in the court and what happens in the public in a demonstration are entirely important and complement each other. So when it was illegal, how was the queer community treated? The criminalization [00:04:30] had an impact of amplifying stigma for the community. Already, the community is was stigmatised for the social anomaly, the law, the criminalization of a private aspect of the lives of people multiplied many fold the stigma and shame [00:05:00] that stigma and shame could be emerging internally, could be from could be internal. And even if they were individuals who were courageous and were able to overcome that internal shame and stigma, they would still have a long way to stand up to the stigma and shame levelled against them by the society at large. And [00:05:30] law played an important role. So even for the lives of those many courageous people who in the time of criminalization came out and were willing to live their lives with honesty, there was still the challenge of, Well, this is criminal, and regardless of however much dignity with which you may hold your head high with in the eyes of law, you are criminal, and that affects [00:06:00] all aspects of your life that will affect your employment that will affect your access to other rights. Where do you go from there? Have the queer communities in India and I'm I guess I'm just using the word queer just as an inclusive term, and I'm not sure if that's an appropriate term to use in the Indian context. I think queer is a entirely appropriate term to use in the Indian context, and I would express the same hesitation with which you asked me that question, [00:06:30] that I cannot answer this question confidently. And I can only answer this question for myself. There isn't any one cohesive community in India for which there might be one president of the queer community, which might be able to answer that question for you. And I think for my personal life I for my own personal identity, I would use queer to define not only my identity but also my sexual politics. Beyond that, I would say that there is great diversity [00:07:00] in India, or not only on gender and sexuality, but on the note of religion, on the count of ethnicity, on the count of access to resources. Amidst that vast diversity, there is always the possibility of people to lead their lives according to personal convictions, so some people would be more keen to identify as gay. Some would be more keen to identify as lesbians and may not want [00:07:30] to may not endorse queer politics or queer identity, and that would vary. But I can only speak for myself, and I would say that I am queer, and if I was asked to any more questions about my desires and my acts. I would say that those are largely private and my identification may well vary in different times. But my personal conviction, my political conviction, is queer, and I adopt KOA even as my personal [00:08:00] identity, the environment in India at the moment. Is it a lot more conservative or liberal? Is it is it easier to be queer in India now than 10 or 15 years ago? I think yes, and more than saying yes or no to that question, I think, uh, the larger part of that question would be the reasons for that, yes or no. And I think 15 years ago there wasn't [00:08:30] the kind of visibility that there is in media. So first aspect that I will say is media and that media includes films. Initially, 15 years ago, they were Hollywood films which were talking, which had gay characters. Most of them, uh, may have conformed to stereotypes, but there was still some visibility. 15 years hence, there are films [00:09:00] which are being made in India about Indian people, about their lives, which are talking about people who are living differently from the mainstream. That's one very big and films are a very popular media, and they make a big difference. Uh, newspapers and magazines are another form of the print media is also, uh uh, not only visibility, not only visual visibility, but also literature next form of media [00:09:30] books. I think there is a lot more literature available. So 15 years ago, if I was struggling with my sexuality, I had very limited resources. I had very limited representation in media to gather from 15 years. Hence, there is a lot more. So if I was keen and looking to supporting quotas of support, I would find them more accessible, [00:10:00] more readily available than I would have 15 years ago. So I think that's a big difference. The second aspect, I would say, is certainly law. Now that Section 3 77 has been read down, I think is a big boost to the community. Before that, there was the stigma and shame, social stigma and shame, compounded by legality compounded by criminality. [00:10:30] Then at least that criminality has gone away, and there is an assurance that a validation which is very important the legal validation that criminalization is a violation of human rights and the human rights of queer people in India are equally valid as that of Dalits as that of Muslims as that of minorities as [00:11:00] that of women, people are equal. So this conference now what would you like to take away from it? Oh, the first thing that I want to take away from this conference is lots of inspiration over work with indigenous persons as Maoris over work with Aboriginal Australians. My workshop on Friday morning is on cast [00:11:30] and sexuality, and I have recently started thinking about working on and people It's a pioneering area. There is very little work done and as with all pioneering works, there is excitement. But there is also fear that you don't know where you're going or you feel lost. So I'm really hoping to carry with me a lot of knowledge information that is already here in this part [00:12:00] with queer Maori people with queer aboriginal Australians. What do you think the biggest issues facing, uh uh, queers in India are today? What? What are the biggest things? I think the biggest thing is social mindsets, although legal legal laws would be a very big part of challenge as well. But social mindsets [00:12:30] are I find a bigger challenge and in some ways social mindsets impact influence the law. In some ways, laws impact the social mindset, so they do a little dance together. But if I had to identify the biggest challenge, it would have to be social mindsets and then the next step to that would be a comprehensive strategy that engages with the social mindset and influences it towards, uh towards [00:13:00] a more harmonious atmosphere, which is equally respectful for all people and is rooted in principles of equality in principles of dignity and really lends itself for the happiness of all people, regardless of their religious beliefs, regardless of their ethnicity, regardless of their sexual orientation, gender identity, a social mindset which really [00:13:30] supports liberty and sets people free and lets them achieve the true potential. If somebody was listening to this in 30 years time as an archival document, what would you like to say to them? I would say that life is a joyful journey, and, uh, that joyful journey always has and will have obstacles, and the [00:14:00] obstacles that I understand right now will or will not remain. And surely the person listening to this in 30 years time will have his or her own share of obstacles. What is important is the spirit to not be defeated by obstacles and to continue struggling escape is may seem like temporary relief. But the opportunities that struggles provide [00:14:30] to live a fulfilling life should not be missed. And we should tackle our obstacles, head on and fight and survive, Yeah.

IRN: 383
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_stephen_donald.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004196
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089490
TITLE: Stephen Donald
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Stephen Donald
INTERVIEWER: Jim Whitman
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Stephen Donald; Wellington Town Hall; human rights
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Stephen Donald from New Zealand talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I, um I work within predominantly Maori communities. Um, I come from a settler settler family, um, on the east coast of the North Island, a place called to bay. Um, and that's the community I'm based in these days. And but I'm working mostly with, um, Maori, um, communities, some of whom, um are closely connected with with their and i others who, um, live in remote [00:00:30] rural areas. Um, and on farms. Well, over an hour off the main road. Um, I work, um, in a very much community facing ministry and a place where everybody knows everybody. Um, and they know know everybody's business. They know that I'm gay. Um, this is, um, not been an issue. Um, you know, race, gender, sexual orientation. Um, age [00:01:00] are irrelevant if you get on and do what is required, um, to make things happen, and, um, to be an effective priest within those sort of communities and spirituality here is not your only focus. Certainly not. Um, I'm a member of the board of, um, to, um the token. Um, token park hour. Um and I, [00:01:30] um, have a particular interest in two areas. One of them is in disability and particularly intellectual disability, Um, and in sexual health. And, um, those are that has some definite overlaps for here, Um, and that within the health board area, East Coast, nobody is doing effective work with men who have sex with men. And so we're investigating some ways into that within those communities, because the [00:02:00] there is, there is no visibility to, um to gay or lesbian sexually diverse communities within what is a provincial and rural area. And so we're having to find we're going to have to be clever about how we do that. Um, we're looking at integrating, um, some of the work into what we already do with sexual health promotion in the schools. And also, um, probably the most effective place is [00:02:30] to have a sexual health component within the men's health programmes that we're that we're running. I was interested, particularly today. We had a, um I went to Vaughan, um, session on making do with making a little go a long way. Um, and I was interested in the way he was talking about forming alliances and my experience both within the health area and in the church and our community facilitation is just [00:03:00] what he was talking about. Where you you form alliances. You other people fund things if you're out there and prepared to do it, um, and almost queue up to help you, Um, if you've got the right approach and the right community networks already in place and the conference itself Have you learned anything from it? I have. I've Well, I've met lots of people. Um, I've, you know, formed some good networks, [00:03:30] I would say already, Um, I've seen the dimensions of, um, of what I'm involved in on a local and regional level, Um, has a more national international global focus as well. Um, the whole, um, notion that I've always understood that if you support those who are the most disadvantaged, that everybody, um, in society wins, and that is the case for on a local level and a national and international [00:04:00] level. And so I've been really interested in what happens within the Asia Pacific region. I have connections with with the Pacific already. Um, I've lived in Tonga and, um, actually a fluent Tongan speaker. Um, and I've spent a lot of time in Fiji, and, um, I already have connections with with the group in Fiji, who some of who the guys are. Some of them are here. Um, and I've been able to meet up with others from Samoa and other places while I'm here. And to get a different [00:04:30] dimension on that has been really useful. Um, I'm interested in the the, uh, the, um debate. Um, which I have might have a different view from what's been promoted. Um, but, um, interesting angles, Um, and that also that the other angle I've been particularly interested in is how the church is perceived. Um, by many, um, people of sexual sex, diverse [00:05:00] sexualities. Um, I've never, um, had outright prejudice or or blocking of of of anything of my own, Probably because I've been prepared to do things that no one else would do. Quite often go places and work places where no one else would be. Um, but, um, the experience of other people is not that. And, um, I you know, I. I cut myself fortunate for that, but that doesn't mean to say that we don't have [00:05:30] a lot of work to do in the church as well. And I'll be writing a, um, a report well, an article for our diocese and magazine on the conference. And, um, part of that will be about the whole area of, of how we have to reframe a lot of our, um, understanding of of sexuality within the church and and Marvin Ellison's, um actually, that was really helpful to give some language to that. I wish [00:06:00] I'd had him around as my consultant to help me write my big coming out speech at Diocese and Synod. But he would have had to do it in five minutes, not 25 forgetting if you can. But the work you do, which is a big part of your life, obviously has that. Has the conference meant anything to you at a sort of basic personal level? Yes, it has. It's made me feel part of a a bigger community. Um, especially from living in a rural, isolated [00:06:30] rural area. Um and, yeah, it's been a really helpful thing on that from that angle. Um, and I'm you know, I'm probably more open now with claiming that identity than I would have been some years ago. Um uh, and I ended up being somewhat of an activist in my fifties which I never expected to be. Um, most of the people [00:07:00] that that were part of all that activism stuff of my age group have done that long ago. Um, and but it's quite interesting to come to it at this point with with, um, maturity and experience to be able to use, um, and relate that to context that I think is often forgotten. I think those of those who live there within an urban context have no idea really about if they've come from the country, [00:07:30] they've escaped it early, Um, and have no idea how that might be for those people who live pretty invisible and closeted lives. Um, and, um, I'm not one of those who does either of that, but, um, there is hardly a community around me that supports, and this has been helpful for that building the networks for a wider support network and you'll keep in touch with people by visiting them. Have them visit you. Yeah, I already do a bit of that. Anyway, um and [00:08:00] I will I will do that more. Um, because I've made contacts with all sorts of people or some people that I've only ever been introduced to on Facebook. Facebook does work. Um and, um, they, you know, I've been able to actually meet them in person, and, um, both from New Zealand and around the Pacific.

IRN: 382
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_shevon_matai.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004195
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089489
TITLE: Shevon Matai
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Shevon Matai
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; American Samoa; Shevon Matai; Wellington Town Hall; fa'afafine; human rights; transgender
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Shevon Matai from American Samoa talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi. My name is Siobhan, and I'm a, uh, I'm from American Samo. I'm a delegate from American Samoa, and I am presenting at the conference. I'm one of the presenter, and I'll be talking about my paper on, uh, polari and language. Polari is a gay language from that, uh, originated from, uh, UK. But, um, it's it from the language in the 16 hundreds. Yes, very interesting to know that, um, there was [00:00:30] there is a gay language, which it was documented by Paul Paul Baker. But, um, what's more interesting to us from the Pacific, especially from from Samoa, is that we've never talked, but we adopt the same morphology of developing this homosexual language. It's amazing. It's amazing to find out how homosexuals of the world, uh, would come to have this language that is [00:01:00] that has similarities. And that's what my paper is about. Can can you give me some examples? Oh, of course. Um, the word dolly is a polari word. And using it, um, from the doll, you know, appreciating the doll. Another mythology, that is very, um uh, common in both the, um in both the and the, uh and language is backslang [00:01:30] So I and, uh are, um, the words for face and hair. And in Samoa, it's popular to speak our tongue backwards in the word which is thing, and we say it. So we it was interesting to find out that this, uh, polari language is has similarities to the language, which is for homosexuals [00:02:00] of Samoa. The reason that I wanted to talk about this slang it's because of its usage. In those days, polari was used as a coded language, a secret language to code. The words were coded to protect homosexuals in the military, protect them from the public. As you know, that in the UK before the 19 sixties, um before they [00:02:30] they had allowed homosexual homosexual acts in in UK it was they were not allowed. And they would have to create this language, uh, to, uh, protect them and be secret, secretive of their sexuality as gays. Uh, for American Samoa, it was it was similar in the sense where, uh, we would use the language to, uh, disguise our conversations with, um with each other as we talk [00:03:00] about our nights with, uh, men of status. Uh, that that that is status in culture and in, um, in culture and in poli politics. So, um, I don't know why we would have to go through the extent of having such a language, uh, to disguise our conversations. And, um, but to live, uh, in a in a world that you know it it's accepted. [00:03:30] So that that's the point where I would like to point out when I do my presentation. Is the language still used today for American? Yes. Um, now, the students of elementary and high school are talking at even heterosexual people. Um, I'm afraid that it might replace the for the, uh, informal, uh, language of Samoa. I'm afraid of that. So this paper also serves as an awareness to, um [00:04:00] uh to the, uh, new generation and the people that are coming by that are, you know, people of American Samoa to understand that the origin of the, uh of the language as well as its purpose that way that they would not replace the, uh, the informal language or the casual language for polari. I know that when, um in the sixties, they, uh, homosexuality was allowed. Then the language started to die down a little [00:04:30] although it is still used, you can Google polari as in POLAR I and you will see its usage on, um uh on the YouTube because there was a radio programme called around the horn and it was they were using that that that was the language that they were using in around the horn in the UK. So it's Yeah, it's it's used and I think it It's history and for for the for the gay community as well as and it's it's it's [00:05:00] it's an, uh, the language, I would think as as it as as an heirloom that we have to keep and to pass on. Generally speaking, what are the, um, rights, like now in with, uh, American for, um, American Samoa is under the United States flag. And you know, when you are a territory of the United States, it comes with freedom and equality, but that we cannot, uh, rule out the fact that we [00:05:30] are from the Pacific and American Samoa is the only territory of the United States in, uh, Polynesia and and, um, we identify with our sisters from, uh, the Independent Samoa and all the, uh, the the and all the hardship of life as a that they see, although that we're from from American Samoa [00:06:00] and the territory of the United States. But we always We also see, uh, mistreatment. Um uh, mockery. Um, we see that in in in American Samoa, even though that it's a territory of the United States. These things are are are are visible, uh, for us in American Samoa, and we have to, um we have to treat it in in some in some respect to, um, secure [00:06:30] ourselves and maintain our protection, other support groups or other networks. Uh, yes, we have the association, uh, for association called, um, so it's an acronym from, um, Society of in American Samoa. And using acronym with names is another, uh, morphology in, uh, gay language A lot. They use that a lot. [00:07:00] And, um, the this organisation, uh, we work very closely with home with home of the elderly, uh, convalescent homes with the Red Cross. We do a lot of, uh, donations to Red Cross to, um, home of the elderly in American Samoa, as well as, uh, in Independent Samoa. There is networking between two associations, um, Sofia's and which is association [00:07:30] Yes, networking in in government issues that pertaining to education. Because this is the field where most are are are in as well as issues that pertains to us as if we're looking ahead 30 years and somebody is listening to this in 30 years time. Is there something that you would say to them? I would like to tell them that is an identity. And I would [00:08:00] like for them to know their identity as they would know their heart, because in that you would know your place in your family, in your government, in your island and in the world.

IRN: 381
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_shabeena_francis_saveri.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004194
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089488
TITLE: Shabeena Francis Saveri
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Shabeena Francis Saveri
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); India; Shabeena Francis Saveri; Wellington Town Hall; human rights; transgender
DATE: 17 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Shabeena Francis Saveri from India talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Shana Francis Sari, and I am from India. Uh, I'm from Mumbai. I am a doctoral student. I'm doing my PhD from, uh, Tata Institute of Social Sciences, which is in Mumbai. And the topic of my study is the transgender social movement in Tamil LA. Can you tell me a bit about that development? Tamil in India is the first state to introduce a transgender welfare policy. And according to that policy, [00:00:30] transgender people now can get free sex reassignment surgery done in a government hospital. They have, uh, educational quota, and they get scholarship for higher education. And there are various citizenship documents that are given to transgender people in the state of Tamil LA. So there is a transgender welfare board, which is the first board of its kind, in which there are members from the transgender community. And there are also people who are non trans and state [00:01:00] officials. So the board is first of its kind in India. How did that board get established? I think it It it is. It is an effort taken by the transgender community in Tamil Nadu, and it's been a long struggle for them. It was an idea put forth to the government of Tamil Nadu by transgender activists and also supporters of transgender people. [00:01:30] And it was their initiative that made the government to form a welfare board working for the development of transgender people. How does that compare to other parts of India, other parts of India? I can say that Tamil was the only state in which there was a transgender welfare board. After that, there were a few states in which similar initiatives were carried out. So Tamil is a role model in terms of transgender development. What [00:02:00] do the general population think of those initiatives? General population in Tamil Nadu? They think that the government, the present government, which is in Tamil LA it's very supportive to vulnerable communities and drown rodden people. And they have an understanding that transgender people are also a vulnerable population, and they are drown rodent people. And it's because of that the government have had taken a step for them. So people people, [00:02:30] uh, people don't have a comment. People don't have any comment about, uh, the board as such, but they know that the government is very supportive to people from various downtrodden background so it's an understanding among people that because of that, the government would have taken a step for them. It seems very progressive. Yes, yes, it's it's very progressive and you don't find this kind of situation anywhere in any other state in India. So [00:03:00] that's the only state which has a free SRS policy, which has a free education policy which has given a few citizenship documents to transgender people. So these things you don't find in any other parts in India does this mean there is migration from other parts of India into the state? This is given these facilities. These welfare schemes are introduced only for those transgender people who are born in Tamil. It's not this membership is not for [00:03:30] other transgenders who come or migrate from other states in Tamil. Do you know how other transgender communities in India have reacted to these these benefits in the state? I think the other transgender organisations and communities are trying to follow a similar procedure, and after the initiatives taken in Tamil Nadu, they too are approaching [00:04:00] the state government demanding similar schemes for them being transgender in India. What what what are some of the issues that that people face first issue people face is stigma and discrimination. They there are like people are very transphobic. There are hate crimes. Uh, transgender people don't exercise their basic rights except [00:04:30] for the state of Tamil Nadu. Um, there's no job opportunity. So it's It's like violation of human rights. Can you see that changing in the near future? I yes, I. I expect that things are going to change in the near future. Last month there was a meeting organised by the National Law [00:05:00] Services Authorities and the Delhi services authorities, and it was an initiative of the government of India, and they had invited a minister from the Planning Commission. And during during that seminar it was stated that transgender issues are going to be included in the 12 5 year plan in uh, 2012. And I hope that there's a good future for transgender people in India because the issues are going to be included in the five year plan, which is really, [00:05:30] which will be really a benchmark for transgender people in India. Somebody mentioned in one of the sessions earlier that a number of state agencies are now including um, kind of a third sex option or another option in in forms. Is that correct? Yes, There there there is an option. Like apart from male female. There's one more option, called others. So people, those who don't identify themselves as male or female, they can check [00:06:00] the others column. But that that is there is. There is a confusion in that also because there are many transgender people who who don't want to be identified as others. But they prefer to be either called as transgender are some other identity and not as others identity. So with your research, what what? What have you found? What have been the outcomes? I think it's too early to comment. Uh, anything [00:06:30] about my research. I'm at the stage of writing my thesis, and I hope that I'll complete writing my thesis, Um, in a couple of months, and I have I'm also writing a few papers, which will be published in a few international journals. And so I think that will give more details about it, will give a more concrete idea about the situation of transgender people and and and the transgender social movement in Tamil Nadu. Uh, but so far, whatever I have from my field observation [00:07:00] and from my, uh, uh, work. For the past three years, I have realised that Tamil is really, really, uh, a leading state in terms of transgender development and the the transgender community. And, uh, not only transgender community, but non trans people and the supporters of the transgender movement have really taken an effort in reaching to the government, raising their voices and have really worked very hard to [00:07:30] gain this recognition. The conference, uh, you you you've travelled, Uh, a long, long way to to to be here in Wellington. What? What do you want to take out of this conference? Basically, I I'm here to present uh uh, my own paper share about my own work. Share about my PhD work. Um, my own experiences of working with the transgender community and also [00:08:00] I'm here to learn from others and listen to others and understand the situation of transgender people in the Asia Pacific region. So with this learning, when I go back to India, I hope that I have a better understanding of transgender people in the Asia Pacific region, and maybe not now, but maybe later, after completing my PhD. And, uh, I want to do a postgraduate. So maybe at the postgraduate level, I, I will try to see [00:08:30] if I can compare the situation of Indian transgender situation with the other, Uh um, like other countries in the Asia Pacific transgender situation. So I think, uh, in the long run, this conference is really going to help me in my research work. And, of course, there is very little research done in in the area of transgender, and there is great scope for research on the topic of transgender. So I hope that, [00:09:00] um I don't say that I'm contributing a very big thing, but I'm doing I'm doing whatever I'm able to do at my own level. So So whatever contribution I'm able to do, I'm I'm I'm trying my level best to give the best through my research. In the short time that you've been here, have you seen any similarities or differences between transgender people in this part of the world and in India? A few similarities, [00:09:30] uh, as, like stigma, discrimination, transphobia hate crimes, violation of human rights of transgender people. Uh, lack of awareness about transgender community, not only with the government but also amongst the general public. These are a few common threads which I have, which I am able to understand. Uh, so far can you talk a [00:10:00] wee bit about the visibility of transgender people in India? Transgender people are very much visible in India. We have a very rich religious, cultural and historical background. There are many categories which fall under the transgender umbrella. Uh, when we speak about the M two F population, there are categories like the category there are. There are other categories of transgender people who don't associate with the identity, but they identified as D as either as M to F, transsexual [00:10:30] or F two M transsexual or just M to F transgender or F, two M transgender people. So we have a lot of diversity in terms of transgender identities in India. If there was one major change that you would want to see for transgender people in India, what what would that be? One major change for transgender people is that there should be a national level policy for transgender development, which should include, uh, [00:11:00] issues like access to health care, education, employment, property rights, child adoption rights, marriage right to marriage. These are a few basic things which are required, and there are, of course, many other things. But these are the few things that should be compulsorily included in the national transgender policy. So you're saying that all of those things currently do not do not happen? It's currently not happening. Yeah, it's It's It's [00:11:30] like it's only just Tamil Nadu, where you have, like the government, has given few rights. But what are the other states? There are so many other states in India, and the other states should also take an initiative, at least to start with some basic rights. If they are not giving a full meal, at least they should give some, you know, little things. It's not like if they are unable. If the government is unable to give anything [00:12:00] on a larger scale, they should start with some basic things. And maybe in the long run, the government the government will have a better solution for the transgender people. But I think this is a time where the government should realise that transgender people are also human beings and they have a right to live a life with dignity, and they too, have a right to live a decent life, [00:12:30] just like any other. Any other person. If we if we skip ahead 30 years and somebody is listening back to this recording, what would you like to say to them if somebody is listening to this tape after 30 years? Uh, first of all, I'd like to say, uh uh, I'd like to thank the organisers for giving me this opportunity to attend this conference and giving me a full scholarship to come [00:13:00] here to New Zealand in Wellington and present my paper, share about my own research work and also learn from others and also giving me an opportunity to get interviewed. Uh, which I hope somebody is listening after 30 years and I I will be happy 30 years down the line if things change in India and if not only in India but across the globe. Transgender. The entire [00:13:30] transgender community after 30 years says that Yes, we now have a life. We lead a life full of dignity. We are not discriminated anymore. We exercise all rights just like any other human being. And there are no regrets from the transgender community on any issue. By the by the term. Any issue means [00:14:00] everything that the person deserves in his or her life. So I think that is the vision which I am looking forward for 30 years, not 30 years, maybe less than that. But still, if somebody listens to this tape after 30 years, they should be happy that the situation has changed and there is no stigma and discrimination. There's no stigma. Discrimination attached to the transgender identity and transgender people are living are living a dignified [00:14:30] life.

IRN: 2070
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_senthorun_raj_2.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004193
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089487
TITLE: Senthorun Raj (2)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Senthorun Raj
INTERVIEWER: Jim Whitman
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Australia; Senthorun Raj; Wellington Town Hall; human rights
DATE: 17 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Senthorun Raj from Australia talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So you've had a whole day now, How did it go? I think this is a fabulous conference. I've been to many conferences, human rights conferences back home in Australia and what I have noticed a discernible difference is the engagement with the indigenous culture. Here in New Zealand, there's a lot more active participation of indigenous voices and and a strong presence of indigenous values and cultural processes reflected [00:00:30] in the in the kind of approach and the methods that the conference utilises, which unfortunately, Australia is still lacking somewhat. Um, we have a traditional, uh, welcome to country or acknowledgement to country back home. But the participation of diverse voices, um, specifically indigenous voices is quite limited. So, um, I felt particularly struck and particularly moved by the, um the level of indigenous participation in the conference so far, and, um, [00:01:00] the level of diversity within this conference as well. And the fact that you know, this is a conference dedicated to diversity, and it's not simply rhetoric or lip service, um, and that you know, the the constituency is not diverse themselves, but this is actually a conference where the content and the participants are largely reflective. of one another. Um, so, yeah, that's probably been my most striking, um, observation since the first day. One of the things that struck me was that the the the quality of indigenous contribution [00:01:30] is not necessarily about LGBTI. It's about who people were before the West, for instance, came Absolutely. Um, I think that's another fascinating observation Is that you know, when people talk about LGBTI Q people, it's often through a very stereotyped lens of, you know, um, you know this Western idea of what constitutes sexuality. And here we have presentations from people from diverse cultural and ethnic communities. Uh, talking about [00:02:00] how their sexual practises, their desires, their intimacies, um, had all these complex ways of defining themselves prior to the imposition of colonial attitudes and laws and politics, which sought to define their relationships as necessarily gay or lesbian. And so it was really great to hear the kind of disparate nature of, um all these different experiences and the rich histories associated with, um you know, um, same sex sexual practises. Before colonialism came and entrenched this very [00:02:30] normative idea of sexuality and sought to police it in a particular way. And of course, it and, uh, following from that as well. It's important to see how it's not simply an issue of just sex. It's an issue about culture, about race, about faith, about spirituality, about geography and the fact that, um, a lot of our identities and ways of belonging are negotiated through many different kinds of attachments, not simply our sexual or gender attachments as well. Does economics come into it? [00:03:00] Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think the point that's been raised throughout this conference is that there is no aspect to our identity that can be taken out as a discrete portion. And economics is absolutely critical to that as well. You know, um, socio demographic status, the the access to capital and the mobility of financial mobility of certain groups enable some people to be more active participants of certain kinds of sexual communities, whereas others are limited in their choice of engagement [00:03:30] simply because of their financial means. So I think you know, economics, politics, geography, religion, race. They all operate together to highlight the fact that sexuality needs to be considered in very specific historical and cultural circumstances. I spoke to a woman who was a sex worker and clearly criminalised in the past or wherever she might go. Whatever country Asia Pacific reason that stops her from working, doesn't it? Um, [00:04:00] forgetting about how she expresses herself sexually or gender wise. Yeah, I think, um, what we've seen is the the criminalising provisions associated with, you know, consensual same sex activity or the criminalization of sex work has been really problematic, produced really poor health outcomes and has sought to police people's rights to determine over themselves, Uh, how they choose to use their bodies and what capacities they choose to use their bodies. Um, and you know, a lot of the rhetoric around, [00:04:30] um, sex work and criminalising sex work is to prevent, uh, forced trafficking and, um, specifically human trafficking of sex workers. But at the same time, that actually obscures the fact that a lot of sex workers choose to engage in these practises as part of an economy and that they should be free and entitled to have agency over their bodies and over their over their lives the same way any other professional has, um, to dictate how they choose to participate in any aspect of economic life. Um, and [00:05:00] if we are to create safe regulated, um, mechanisms for sex work and sex workers. It's absolutely essential that the criminal provisions be removed and that, you know, there is greater access to health care and services and, um, proper, um, you know, complaints, um, and scrutinising bodies and that, you know, sex workers aren't stigmatised or criminalised and, um, you know, treated on the margins of society, so to speak.

IRN: 380
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_senthorun_raj_1.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004192
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089486
TITLE: Senthorun Raj (1)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Senthorun Raj
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Australia; Senthorun Raj; Wellington Town Hall; human rights
DATE: 17 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Senthorun Raj from Australia talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm representing the gay and lesbian rights lobby from New South Wales. So I work as a senior policy advisor. Um, so in terms of my professional background, I do political lobbying in Australia around the recognition of same sex couples and their families. Um, in addition to that, I also, uh, have a bit of an academic kind of background in sexuality, law and cultural studies. And I've just finished my thesis looking at the way sexuality and persecution is understood [00:00:30] in refugee law in Australia. And I'm here at the conference to present some of my research in one of the conference rooms. What were some of the findings in your research? Largely that the way sexuality is understood is very, very isotype. Um, it comes from a very ethnocentric or anglophone idea of, um, sexuality, as you know, enabled through consumerism through public space, through promiscuity through, you know, association [00:01:00] with particular cultural objects like Madonna or Oscar Wilde. And so, um, a lot of the problems faced by diaspora or displaced sexual minorities is that they don't readily identify with the kind of tropes that or stereotypes that decision makers feel that sexuality is, and so part of my research was sort of critiquing the ways in which sexuality needs to be understood in very specific historical and cultural circumstances and that people may [00:01:30] not even understand the vocabulary of gay and lesbian and yet still face persecution on the basis of their attraction or gender presentation and so forth. So what do you think are the biggest issues facing queer communities in Australia at the moment? Legislatively speaking, Australia still lacks federal anti discrimination laws that protect sexual and gender minorities. Um, marriage equality is also another considerable issue, um, impeding the rights of sexual and gender minorities for [00:02:00] adequate relationship recognition. Um, sex and gender diverse communities also have a broad range of issues in terms of access to medical treatment. Um, identity recognition on official documents, um, and so forth. So there are still considerable gaps, uh, in terms of the legislative framework in Australia. But, you know, very recently in New South Wales, we've seen, um, a good push towards the recognition of same sex families with, uh, same sex couple adoption, ending the last piece of direct legislative discrimination [00:02:30] in the state of New South Wales, For example, what do you kind of take out of these kind of conferences. I think there's a lot to take out from these conferences, especially conferences, which bring together such a diverse and eclectic mix of individuals working in a different across different areas. I think primarily what we need to understand is that any form of activism are dedicated to ensuring the rights and recognition of sexual and gender. Minorities has to be interdisciplinary. It has to work across the board. It can't just be located in legislation or policy. [00:03:00] It needs to be located in cultural change, in social change in education. And I think in these sorts of conferences that really bring together that interdisciplinary, we're able to better our own work in the disciplines that we do work in and to ensure a more holistic and kind of diverse approach to, um, activism and to social justice for sexual and gender minorities. How do you kind of keep that momentum going from a conference like this? You know, basically turning words into into actions. What? What do you think you will do when you get back to Australia? Well, at the moment, [00:03:30] um, we're currently working on achieving federal anti discrimination legislation, Um, and also, um, at a state level, working towards getting policies around homophobic bullying in schools and getting funding and resourcing. And at this conference, I know that there is a specific focus on, you know, rights and legislation, um, and also around education. And so hopefully, um, hearing some of the research presented hearing some of the models that have been utilised, say in different jurisdictions, um will help inform [00:04:00] my work and what I'll be able to report back to the to the government, um, in New South Wales and in Australia about what our current models, What our current best practise approaches, Um, in order to ensure that, you know, the work that we do isn't reinventing the wheel, but consistent with the good models that we see around the world, Have you yourself personally had any kind of discrimination or human rights issues? Sexuality related, Um, not directly. Oddly, I tend to find more race based discrimination [00:04:30] in Australia than I do sexuality, but that has to do with other privileges that I have as well in terms of class and and education and that kind of thing. Um, I think one of The really interesting things about a conference such as this is that it highlights the kind of, uh, intersectionality of discrimination in that you know, we're never just gay or lesbian or discriminated on the basis of just our sexuality or gender identity. But complementary factors like race, gender, nationality, class, faith, you know, ability, [00:05:00] uh, age, all those kinds of factors into plays in how we get discriminated against. And these sorts of conferences really draw attention to the importance of thinking about discrimination and social justice in a much more broad, diverse, holistic approach than a discrete kind of way of thinking about identity is So tell me about racism in Australia. Um, wow, that's a big question. Um, I think unlike, unlike New Zealand, I think Australia still has a long way to go in terms of its recognition of the indigenous populations. [00:05:30] Um, currently, there's a discussion around getting the indigenous people or the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people recognised in our Constitution, which currently does not exist. Um, I think race as a term is very reluctantly used, and racism is a very reluctant term. I think multiculturalism is often used as the kind of policy vehicle, um, to kind of stifle any discussion around racism. Um, and yet we've seen that multiculturalism is really this kind of fiction, [00:06:00] Um, that the government, uh, tends to use, in order to, you know, consolidate all these cultural differences together or, you know, harmonise them for their own purposes. And yet we still face systemic discrimination on the basis of race. You just look at asylum seekers and the treatment of them in Australia and the way they're mobilised as political footballs during any federal election. Um, still indigenous issues around health and education and welfare and the Northern Territory intervention [00:06:30] in terms of, you know, uh, dealing with child sexual assault, but with a very blanket. Very, you know, non consultative, very neocolonial approach has seen disastrous effects in the Northern Territory and other indigenous communities. So I think Australia does need to move forward in terms of its race politics just by talking about it and consulting with groups and really trying to achieve diversity rather than pay lip service or policies such as multiculturalism. Is there a willingness to do that? [00:07:00] Um, I hope so. I don't necessary, I think. Well, there's been recent discussion about multiculturalism again, it's been revived in Australia. But, um, I do hope that there will be greater attention paid to it, and certainly with the indigenous Australians. You know, now that there's talk about including them in the Constitution. And now that there is a campaign around recognising the kind of, you know the disparity in terms of life expectancy and the you know, um, employment prospects and all those kinds of things for indigenous Australians, hopefully we'll see greater [00:07:30] social, legislative and policy change around around race, um, based issues in Australia. If we were to scoot forward 30 years and you had to, um, impart some words to somebody listening in 30 years time, what would they be? Um, that these sorts of conferences are absolutely essential, and it's always best practise to invite people from different spectrums. Um, across the world, geographic context, religious context, gender, sexuality, race, um, to promote [00:08:00] dialogue. I mean effectively. That is the strength of of a community. Um, it's the ability to negotiate differences rather than erase them. And so I think in the future, if we develop mechanisms and you know whether that's a conference, whether that's a You know, a forum, whether that's just simply interpersonal communication between two people that validates and respects people's differences and brings them together in a conversation rather than seeks to put them in a hierarchy or to contest them against one another, I think that will be a fantastic improvement to where [00:08:30] we are now.

IRN: 379
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_sam_orchard.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004190
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089484
TITLE: Sam Orchard and co
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Joey Macdonald; Nick Mcmillan; Sam Orchard
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Joey Macdonald; Nick Mcmillan; Sam Orchard; human rights; transgender; youth
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Sam Orchard, Joey MacDonald and Nick McMillan from New Zealand talk about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm Sam Orchard, and I am a youth worker and comic book writer, Um, and Trans man. And this is right up my alley. That's why I came. Um, I'm Joey McDonald, and I'm a master's student in gender studies. So my university, um, gave me some funding, and I used it to come here, and I've been doing presentations on trans masculinity and, [00:00:30] um, storytelling. And today we're gonna do one on queer and trans youth support. Um, so really, I just want to hear from other people the kinds of things that they're doing, Um, and learn from it. Cool. I'm Nick McMillan. I'm here as a facilitator for Forge, which is a trans youth support group in Christchurch and here to sort of get some links with other trans groups and other trans people around New Zealand and Asia Pacific. Have you found [00:01:00] any similarities or differences, actually, just within New Zealand itself, in terms of trans issues? Yes. Um, I think it's really different because trans is something that, um, a trans means. Different things to different people can be used like an umbrella word like transgender often is. Um, but it kind of it. I was thinking of like a slice of pie like it. There's people from all over New Zealand and all walks [00:01:30] of life who are trans. So it's always different because you know it. It people of different ethnicities, people of different classes, people of different locations and generations. And like, you know, there's huge differences between experiences of pakeha or white people like myself and someone who's Pacific or Maori. And we had a trans who on, um, Tuesday on the 15th of March, and that was really about having, like, an Asia Pacific flavour [00:02:00] of what it was like for different people in different places. So we had people from Nepal and from India and from Malaysia and from Hong Kong and, um, all over the Pacific. And it was beautiful. I mean, there was a lot of everybody kept using the word family, so I think the similarity came across and that everyone wanted to be connected, but also have this sort of specifics recognised. So it would always be, um this is this is me. This is where I come from, and I still relate to all [00:02:30] of the others, you know? So we found a way of trying to work with the difference. I think this has been a really great opportunity just to realise how many more of us are out there and kind of get us in the same room talking to each other. And that for me always feels really, really special and having those different the intergenerational links as well. Where I mean, people even within New Zealand have had really different experiences based on, um when they were coming [00:03:00] out and transitioning and, um and what society was like then compared to us who are relatively young. Um, and I think that the intergenerational thing also relates to, um, going across all of those different identity categories. So, um, we've had sessions where we've had, um, wonderful older lesbian women who've said, Hey, we feel worried about, um, losing some of our lesbian women because they're transitioning to becoming trans men. And [00:03:30] so, actually, being able to have a dialogue about that is incredibly valuable. So we can say, Um oh, we know so many lesbian women who are so gorgeous who are who are young. So it's not that there's an older generation of lesbians and a younger generation of trans men. And that one replaces the other. But that we can have these, like multiple explosions all over the place of people doing different things. So those conversations I wouldn't be able to have, um, back in Dunedin by myself or even in part of the social groups. Yeah, I could talk to myself. [00:04:00] What do you think? Oh, what do you think? Um but but you know, I need I need to be interacting with other people across New Zealand to have those conversations. And this is a safe place for that to happen. Often it it wouldn't be feeling safe and comfortable for everyone. So, do you feel quite isolated back in in your own home parts? I? I do somewhat. I have a lot of sort of trans and queer and gender diverse friends in Dunedin. I don't know how many a lot [00:04:30] is, but but enough that I don't feel personally isolated. But Dunedin, um, being way down in the south does feel quite isolated. And in New Zealand exploiting us about flights because now there's nobody else who flies to us. And petrol is too expensive to drive. So the the place that we're the most connected to is Christchurch, where Forge and Utopia are, um so we we have quite strong links with Christchurch, but elsewhere. Yeah, I think South Island feels quite [00:05:00] separate sometimes, Actually, even in Christchurch, the trans community as a whole is fairly isolated. Christchurch being a little bit behind some more progressive cities in New Zealand. Um, the trans community is still very isolated, even from the gay community. Um, the links forging Utopia are trying to forge those links in the younger members of society. But in the older generations, those links just aren't there. So as much as we can try and forge them, the trans community is still very isolated [00:05:30] down there. Why do you think those links aren't there? I think it's It's the same thing as even the gay community being isolated from the straight community. It's about fear. It's about lack of knowledge. And it's about people not really having the confidence to reach out to other groups in society. They kind of stick to their own. They stick to what they know. They stick to what they think is safe, and they kind of don't want to go any further than that. So it's about having somebody who's willing to bridge those gaps. [00:06:00] That's right. I think that, um my experience I've just moved up from Dunedin to Auckland and that it's such a different experience being able to have much. There's so many more visibly queer people and visibly trans people, um, that I can connect with up there, Um, but also building on what Nick was saying that having those opportunities to have dialogues with people who have different identities [00:06:30] or experiences, um, has been really powerful for me. And it's that's why things like this is really is a really wonderful opportunity to have that conversation and have it in a safe way. And start those those links to kind of break down the stereotypes or break down that fear and say, Oh, we're all people and I like comics. Oh, you like comics cool kind of thing, finding different things that connect us and yeah, So had you ever been to a like that [00:07:00] before? I haven't personally. This is my first. Um, I've been to gatherings of trans people around art openings and stuff like when I show nothing came down to Christchurch, they bought a whole heap of trans people to do, um, panels and stuff like that. But I've never actually been to a full regional Trans. It was awesome. Yeah, I don't I don't I don't think I've been to anything on the scale of the out games human rights conference. I think we've had similar, [00:07:30] um, and the the that we had that was kind of attached to it. Um, the number of people who came from so many different places and all of those voices and especially non-white voices was really powerful. Um, and I haven't experienced that before. Yeah, I just echo the the size of this and the diversity amongst the people who have attended is just really incredible. Has anything challenged you? [00:08:00] My first session I went to was on trans employment, and I'm going back to Christchurch probably to come out at work, and the first session listed a whole heap of problems you will probably face in the workplace. As I walked into my first session and they loaded me up with that and I'm like, Right, I'm going home now. But it was confronting, but it was good. Like it. It's given me not only the expectation that there could be some problems, but it has given me some possible [00:08:30] solutions and ways to deal with those problems. So as as much as some of it's quite difficult and quite confronting, it's also very useful. So and it is stuff that people are going to have to deal with anyway. So, yeah, I feel like this has been a really eye-opening experience to listen to other people's stories and experiences of what they've been through. And, um, how how they've lived their lives. It's felt like it's kind [00:09:00] of made me feel very lucky in some ways, um, and very privileged, but also given me a lot of, um, passion to kind of say, Oh, what more needs to be done and what what can my role be in that as well? Yeah, I feel I feel challenged by so many things challenged. Talking into a microphone. Um, I was thinking about how there were moments [00:09:30] of, um, at the Trans, where people were speaking about, um, really emotional experiences that they had, um, like a Trans man from Nepal who, um, was helping, um, there was one of his friends was helping him with translation and stuff. And we didn't I couldn't understand a lot of what was being said, but I absolutely knew what was being said just because of the emotion of, you know. And half of us [00:10:00] were crying and there was just a lot of, um, empathy and and I felt challenged by that to be really vulnerable in that space, like I. I couldn't put up a wall between myself and this other person, and I had to find a way of letting that in without feeling terribly depressed and, you know, find a way for that to be motivational when he talks about spending time in jail and talks about really brutal, scary stuff that happens and the complete lack of health care. [00:10:30] Um, so I felt challenged by recognising, um that there are all these different contexts where different situations are happening with, um LGBT, or also whatever kind of indigenous labels and and knowledge and frameworks people use. Because I know LGBT doesn't work in so many contexts. Um, so I guess empathy and, um, being vulnerable has been challenging. And language has been challenging, like finding [00:11:00] ways of, um of connecting with people who either there's a language barrier. Um, and I only speak English, which feels incredibly limiting, Like I can't believe I only speak English, um, and recognising the privilege. As Sam said, that goes along with being a white, English speaking person who can afford to have a university pay for me to come here. Um, and then the language of just the words we use to describe ourselves. What do you want to take away from this conference? What? What do you think you [00:11:30] you'll come away with for me? Personally, I was here to get links to other trans people nationwide and to other trends and queer youth groups nationwide. And I think I've pretty much achieved that already. I think most of that we achieved in the But now I'm just here for information, just just to get a sense of what's going on, not just in New Zealand but in the rest of the Asia Pacific region. And just to get more of a connection with the people here, I think [00:12:00] I will take away a feeling of my heart growing something like that. Something about, um, I haven't I feel like I haven't processed it yet. I haven't processed. What? When? I next week when I'm home in Dunedin and I'm reflecting on what this was like then I'd be able to answer the question. But I think until then I just have a feeling of of, um yeah, of my heart growing. Yeah, I think for me, um, sort of [00:12:30] the increase of not of knowledge that I've gotten over the last couple of days, and I think in the next couple of weeks, sifting through what? That what that means. And, um, making sure to keep my eyes open to that and not close them again, but also to to solidify that into that knowledge into action as well. And to have a think of ways to to actually move forward with that inspiration, Inspiration for action. [00:13:00] One final question, which is like in 30 years time when somebody is listening back to this, as in the archive. Um, what would you say to that person? I feel like I not want to say things, but actually ask them a whole bunch of questions and see what it what it's like and what has changed and where we've moved, I guess, um, I had a feeling of wanting to say thanks. Thanks for listening to us. Thanks. For, um, you know, looking back at the past in order to move [00:13:30] forward because this will be the past, then. So, um, I'm looking forward to their future. I hope they're loving it. And, um and it's a wonderful thing to know that that people will want to hear what, um what has been part of their history? Um, I think just partially to expand on what Joe said. No matter what improvements have been made between now and then in terms of our rights and our acceptance in public and stuff for them not to forget that [00:14:00] to keep fighting, not to get complacent and not to think. Hey, we've got it as good as we're gonna get it. And hey, it's awesome. You do still have to make sure that that keeps up and don't let things slide back.

IRN: 378
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_ruth_busch_and_jan_wilson_1.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004189
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089483
TITLE: Ruth Busch and Jan Wilson (1)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Jan Wilson; Ruth Busch
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Auckland; Jan Wilson; Lesbian Elders Village; Ruth Busch; elder issues; elders; health; human rights; lesbian; relationships; retirement
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Ruth Busch and Jan Wilson from New Zealand talk about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, I'm Jan and we came to the conference as part of a group of, uh, women from the lesbian elders Village, um, group in Auckland. And we came to run a workshop, which we did this morning, in which Ruth has actually already been archived talking about some of those issues. So And also, um, it's the first chance I've had to come to a lesbian games, even though I wasn't here for the game. So yeah, so to be around [00:00:30] other gay and lesbian people to enjoy the conference. And, uh, yeah, what are the issues with ageing? Queer populations, Invisibility, no services. Lack of safety. Shall I count the ways, uh, mainstreaming to the point of, uh, utterly not acknowledging that lesbians are gays or anyone in LGBTI, uh, could have anything [00:01:00] outside of what your heteronormative population needs would be. And the impossibility of getting a double bed in a retirement home for you, you and your lover to go there. Lots of things. I think it's hard enough for a heterosexual couple to get a double bed. But I imagine yeah, it would be impossible for, um, functioning as a lesbian in a kind of lesbian positive way. Like for many of us, we came out, [00:01:30] you know, like, uh, I came out in about 1979. We fought all those battles. I don't intend to go back into the closet. In my old age, I'm 67 years old. None of that those services exist. Now that, uh, one of the things we reported on was that the government has done many reports on the ageing in this country. Not one of them has made any reference to the LGBTI community. This all sounds very scary. [00:02:00] It is very scary. I think it's a very scary thought to um like, a number of people in our group have had personal experiences of having a partner put into having to go into an aged care facility. And they're not even at all being recognised as a significant person in their life. When they lived together for years and, uh, loved together so much, the birth family then gets the control, like in one of the cases, that the family was [00:02:30] really homophobic. She wasn't even contacted when her lover of many years died like immediate. You know that day because right, and they buried she wasn't invited to the funeral either. And those are the stories that existed in a in the seventies. Um, you know, but this happened. This happened three or four years ago. So, you know. So that's what I'm saying. We fought those battles as younger women and we don't want to. It's so clear, [00:03:00] we are going to get old. We need to have places that are lesbian, positive or and, uh, safe. And one of the things we mentioned in our workshop is if you just a month ago or less, um, Juliet Lee and Lindsay Kerner were burnt out and magnify heads. And so, um, ageing lesbians, isolated ageing lesbians are really, uh, at risk unless we have community. [00:03:30] And to me, that's one of the the things that really sticks out is the whole isolation thing and actually going back into the closet. Um, in this day and age now, how do people cope with that? Well, with great difficulty. Um, uh, if if you have to. If you're in the unfortunate position where you have to find yourself in an institution, then there isn't an institution that will manage it. Um, and [00:04:00] one of our members of our collective is in a gerontology nurse, and there's a survey that is given to everybody, uh, who's wanting to go into aged care. And there are absolutely no questions in this highly regarded survey of 260 questions that ask about, um, anything that would allow a person to say that they have a same sex partner. Nothing about sexual orientation, nothing about family of choice. Nothing. [00:04:30] 260 questions internationally recognised instrument for as they have Marmite on their toast in the morning. So So why is that? And because I mean invisibility. Uh, well, I mean, someone was saying this morning, you know that John Keith thinks we should be grateful to him because he's not rolling back. Uh, the what I see as discrimination that we sustained under the Labour government. [00:05:00] I don't I'm going to talk tomorrow about how I think the civil unions act is, um, totally discriminatory and a booby prize. And we wouldn't accept any other group being placed in the position that the LGBTI community is placed in in civil unions, like I'm a Jewish lesbian. Imagine if we said everyone in this country can get married, but Jews and Jews have to take civil unions. Uh, [00:05:30] I would hope maybe I'm wrong. Yeah, I would hope that people would really be upset about that. So what allows us to be the only ones? You know, Marilyn, We talked about separate but equal. We those of us who have come from the States. No. You know, they always said that segregation was separate but equal. But when you looked at the reality, there was nothing equal about it. And there is nothing equal about civil unions in this country. As a matter of fact, my belief is the only reason [00:06:00] they've given us any of this is almost like a neoconservative thing they want, you know, instead of us looking to the state for a benefit, we have to look to our partners for and maintenance. Instead of looking to the state, we look to our partners to divide up property. Ok, You know, we look to our partners to pay child support. There's nothing wrong with that. But give us full equality. Don't give us, uh you know, the parts that are the responsibility parts, [00:06:30] they don't give us any of the rights. You know, and I think that that's the problem. And I really like I resent that the Human Rights Commission supported the civil Unions Act. Of all of the groups that should have stood for human rights for LGBTI community, it was the Human Rights Commission. And, uh, you know, I. I look I mean, the wonderful thing about gay men in 1986 prior to 1986 [00:07:00] is there was a refusal to accept a differential in the age of consent. They said no, we're not taking incrementalism. This is our right as human beings. And we should have learned something from that. Civil unions is a kind of incremental thing. And but guess what? Nobody is going to re look at it again. So and it made some sense when no other country is married. But we have the most perverse situation, which is people can [00:07:30] marry in Canada now. And when they come home, their relationships are treated as civil unions so they get less. Whereas I, I don't know if you realise, but if you marry as a polygamous couple in a country where polygamy is allowed, your polygamous marriage is recognised in New Zealand. But if you marry In Canada, where same sex marriages are legal, your same sex marriage is recognised as a civil union, not as a marriage. So [00:08:00] I mean, I'm not against. I mean, just look at the disparity in that and strangely enough, and I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed to at all. But transsexuals can marry in the sex of their nominated as long as they hold themselves out as heterosexual couples, you know, And that's the phrase of the law. Hold themselves out to be heterosexual couples. Well, aren't we trying to sabotage that kind of binary? So I guess [00:08:30] in years to come when there will be either civil union or married gay and lesbian couples ageing aged care premises Will will need to address that issue, won't they? At some point, we're doing it already. It's not addressing it. We confront ageism as well as homophobia because people don't want to acknowledge that anyone who's old might have any sort of sexual life, let alone someone with a with [00:09:00] the same partner. So I think it's, um, not only actually, someone said to me after our presentation this morning, you know, one of the issues is that it costs more for them to make a room big enough for a double bed. So you know, there's this whole issue of ageism ageism in the in the LGBT community, too. That has to be confronted, I think. III. I guess, though, like with [00:09:30] sexuality, it's not just about sex. And for for some people, it's it's it's about their whole being so Yeah, but, you know, like we were hearing from this woman, uh, who presented after us in Australia and II, I would I'm not quite sure how it's done there, but, like, 30 or 40% of all Australian, I would think it's true here as well our church based retirement places. And so you're absolutely opting in to, like, I would rather you know, that they didn't pay those people that they actually gave [00:10:00] to more secular based um uh, more inclusive, uh, retirement places. If, like, if we had money, we would put this together, we could. It's the lesbians are poor. Lesbians are invisible. Nobody wants to be old. Uh, you know, in even the gay or lesbian community and, uh, well, actually, and I, I apologise for cutting you off before we were about to talk about ageism in the lesbian and gay community. Tell me about that. Well, I [00:10:30] mean, youth culture, and you see it all the time and and, you know, the the lesbian community. Just because of the kind of economics the gender economics tends to earn less money. And, uh, especially if many of us have Children, too. You know that we there's a kind of difference now for many of us older lesbians. We brought our Children into our community. And so there's all of that. I just think that, uh, it's a yeah, I think there is a lot of ageism [00:11:00] and in in in our communities, a lot of, um, I don't know, extolling of the young and the beautiful came up as a very brief part of the conversation after the, um workshop this morning when one of our group said, How many of you feel old or believe would label yourself as old and nobody wanted to say that they were old, Um, even though they might be in their sixties or even seventies. Nobody [00:11:30] wanted to say that they were old to be old. And so, yeah, um, I think it does exist there. And I think when we've been at the big Gay Out and had a store, people have who have come to talk and look at some of the stuff we're doing and some of the planning, which is really best if people look at forming a community, probably from the forties and fifties onward. Uh, people just are afraid to look at that whole, um, [00:12:00] time of their life. But to give you an example, like we, um, put in this abstract at the conference and they put us on a stream called other. So we said to them, uh, bad enough to be invisible in the, um, straight world. But really, you know, one expects that when you're coming to AAA LGBTI human rights conference that you might not be other right, [00:12:30] so immediately and and I I pointed out I said, You know, uh, it's not just drug and alcohol and HIV that are the well being issues in in our communities. But, uh so then we got they rearranged and, well, we're well being too. So we feel better, you know, But But that's just an example, like a student, you know, I mean, we're all gonna age. It's not actually an other situation. It's like in every person's gonna age, right? But if we're lucky [00:13:00] and you see the government calls for the government reports all call for people staying within the community. Well, we want to stay within the community, and we think there are analogies already developed in a. There's a housing. There's all we can't even get money to get a need to assessment together. Worse than that, they are a gay and lesbian gerontologists, and it just isn't the flavour of the month, even for them to do this work. And so or there's no money in it. You know, for, um, [00:13:30] for the that's a problem. So who's preventing it from happening? Well, I think I think this is It's a human rights issue. The yoga card to principal make it really clear that, uh, affordable housing, access to affordable housing for us and access to, uh, you know, quality health care. These are basic human rights. These are basic human rights principles. So, So, first and foremost, it's a government that could fund this or at least make a commitment [00:14:00] to imagine having a consultation with our communities, But, no, they haven't done anything like that. So, uh, I think it I mean, we could start on individual levels, But let's take it up to really the place where maybe this there should be, you know, because we want affordable housing too. So not, you know, there are a lot of listening who won't have the money to buy into great Lynn, right? And and so it needs to be open to to all [00:14:30] women with every class. So on on a positive note, the the collective Tell me about that. Well, we've, um We've been meeting for four or five years. We have plans. We have, uh, quite an active core group and more than 100 other people who are on the list. We have a website and and incorporation at the top. So [00:15:00] the reality and the possibility are there. We already are a community who support one another, but who live scattered throughout Auckland and a few further north. Um, and we are really actively trying to work towards, uh, having a sustainable community in which we can live so having the bricks and mortar and the land as well. But already. We have a community which is, um, trying to It's a virtual community. Yeah. [00:15:30] And anyway, it is positive for us. Bringing this to the conference and beginning a conversation which must happen is a really steps that we're feeling really pleased that this is because we had a lot of people at the workshop, and they a lot of people who are interested from other parts of the country and who will stay in touch and some possible seeds of maybe getting some move towards the needs assessment. So, yeah, I think just beginning to to walk and beginning to, um, make the [00:16:00] unspeakable speak. Yeah. So And I think that's what we thought. If if that could happen, if we could even begin to, you know, we were talking about this, um, what is the function of the state? It's to enhance citizens dignity. We are the citizens, just like the rest of them. And, you know, that's the The state should take steps to enhance our dignity. That's the whole human rights take on [00:16:30] law and the function of the state. So and I think it's good we didn't actually say this at the workshop, but It's good for us to know that as this community and collective of old lesbians, um however we wish. But I'd like to describe us that way. We go on hikes, so us walk the to crossing. Uh, we do things together that are not all old focused things in the traditional sense of the word. So [00:17:00] we do things together and we enjoy things together. And we live here. Just, uh, one final question before the caucuses begin. Uh, if we skip forward 30 years and somebody's listening back to this recording in 30 years time, what would you say to them? I hope that in every sizable community in New Zealand, apart from a apart from anywhere else, there is a, uh, real village, [00:17:30] um maybe mud brick or bricks and mortar, where or would affordable where lesbians can live together and support one another when they are old and be safe. And I'd like people 30 years from now to ask themselves, What did you do to make this happen? Did you envision that we could have this kind of reality and and what was done to make [00:18:00] it happen? And if it never happened, you know It was so sad to hear Marilyn today say she hopes she There she is. She hopes she lived that long. Well, you know, I intend to live that long. And I would like people to be accountable for what is the next step. I want to ask you 30 years from now, Did you drive us back into the closet or did you revel in our old age? You know? Did you Did you help us celebrate old age, or do we go? Do we [00:18:30] have to go hide? I don't want to hide anymore. You know, it was so bloody hard coming out in 1978. I don't tend to go hard anymore, you know? And we did all of that stuff, and, uh, I hope that people will still respect us, and Nazi has just been to labels. You know, I. I hope that those labels of lesbian and gay don't just evaporate away. You know, it's a post modern world, but some of the you know [00:19:00] we have to honour those people who went before.

IRN: 1272
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_ruth_busch_and_jan_wilson_2.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004188
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089482
TITLE: Ruth Busch and Jan Wilson (2)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Jan Wilson; Ruth Busch
INTERVIEWER: Jim Whitman
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Auckland; Jan Wilson; Lesbian Elders Village; Ruth Busch; elder issues; elders; health; human rights; lesbian; relationships; retirement
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Ruth Busch and Jan Wilson from New Zealand talk about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I thought it was really good what you said at the very beginning that lesbians don't figure in aged care, do they? Absolutely. There have been report after report and minority report on ageing in in New Zealand, and not one of them has mentioned the LGBTI community. It's like, um, we're totally invisible. And for several of our collective members, they've really had, uh, personal [00:00:30] experiences with, um, uh, lovers with dementia lovers who had cancer and caring. I mean, just virtual the hetero of, um, the dementia unit that one of our, um, collective members lover died in and her almost exclusion from that the unit and not even being contact when she died. And, um then our friend, uh, whose lover died of cancer. [00:01:00] And what she found was, even though they had a supportive community, it was just too hard. Um, that there needed to be residential care in which, uh, the whole community would supply care not just four or five people who might or might not be, especially towards the end of her life. So a lot of things have motivated people to join this community. And from some of us, you can hear from my accent. I'm from New York City. Originally, uh, for those of us who [00:01:30] aren't here with extended families, et cetera, and are here within our community, we really do need our community to provide safe, affordable, lesbian friendly, uh, services. Otherwise, we'll all go back into the closet for so many of us. When we came out in the seventies, we you know, we saw ourselves as in the forefront of demanding human rights, but partially because of the lack of, uh or the kind of what they call [00:02:00] plus the ageism within our own communities. Uh, this we become invisible again. And and alas, that means we may be driven back into the closet. Unless we take some initiatives. The only way to be in residential care for elderly people is not to be lesbian. You feel well? I mean, uh, you heard, uh, Sonia Carron, who is a, um a gerontologist for the [00:02:30] um Auckland District Health Board, saying that of 260 questions that are the typical assessment questions that are asked for people to determine what are their needs, et cetera. There's not one question about sexual orientation and and clearly no training for car? No, uh, you know, trading in sensitivity, sensitivity, lesbian friendly or LGBTI friendly. [00:03:00] Uh, and imagine how much worse if we were in church run organisations and perhaps no double beds, either. Double beds? Yes. We heard a story today from Australia about somebody being accused of watching lesbian porn was just watching queer as folk or something on on, you know, Channel one or something. And that whole kind of and the almost asexuality that seems to be a part of ageing. Well, I don't [00:03:30] want to go gently into that Good night. So you set up your own community. We've set up a collective to work towards setting up the community. Yes, and, um and luckily, the top twins have become our patrons, so that's quite nice. But, you know, um, lesbians tend to be quite a poor community. Um, and, uh, financially and, uh, just even getting the money together [00:04:00] for a needs assessment which would allow us to apply for further grants in a time of really financial cutback across social services, et cetera. So, at the very time we we're ready to roll, there's, uh there's not really much money or much desire either within or without our community. And yet we see things. We saw those, um, the two lesbians, Lindsay, uh, and, uh, Juliet Lee who were burnt [00:04:30] out just a couple of months ago in heads. Well, to every lesbian who worries about isolation. Uh, stigmatisation that story brought a chill to all of us. And I think we you know, the older you get, the harder it's gonna be to fight against us. So we need to do something now. We can't wait till I'm 85 to to start it. And and and, uh, all of these reports talk about the [00:05:00] staying within your community. Well, we have a community that's been totally invisible in those very reports, and we're totally analogous to like there's papa housing that exists, the Pacific island housing, and it should exist. But we also want to have LGBT or even lesbian only housing. I think the question is, if we could even get LGBT housing, but we have different needs. What happens and that [00:05:30] was discussed today is we get mainstreamed with some illusion that they're on. You know, by the time you get to 65 or something, your needs and everybody else's needs straight, you know, and and lesbian are exactly the same. And that's totally ridiculous. I mean, I know that my own self from, um, a very good friend of mine had breast cancer in Washington DC. And there was a lesbian support breast cancer support group that she could belong to. And before [00:06:00] she belonged to that, she belonged to, um, just a generic breast cancer support group. Well, in the generic group, she kept changing the pronoun so that she wouldn't be victimised by homophobia. After all, she's dealing with chemotherapy. She doesn't have to deal with, uh, the homophobia of some of the other, um, support group members. But more than that, um, the issue of whether to have a mastectomy or more than that prosthesis may and whether [00:06:30] your husband will find you attractive once you've had your mastectomy is not a burning issue in the lesbian community. It may be for some lesbians, but, uh, there are lots of other issues that are more significant, and we need to develop, you know, And so so when it's mainstreamed and everything is everybody's seen the same. Of course they're overlapping, Uh, concern, yes, but There are some that are specific. And, uh, you know, that is just a good example. Do you think making [00:07:00] sure that you're not without lesbian friends is one of the key issues? Well, one of the things we're trying to do is also to create a virtual community before we actually get all of the money to to create our 100 lesbian. You know, uh, membered, uh, community like community can be created in in a virtual way where we care for each other. And I think we've done a lot of that within the collective. And I think the lesbian community, and probably the [00:07:30] gay and transgender and intersex community is struggling with those issues, too. How do we face ageing? And And I know at least from caricaturing of the gay community, that ageism in the gay community is alive and well and as and as well And so you know it it makes it a problem if we become invisible once we reach 50 or 55. And that's why one of our members was saying we should all just claim and and relish being old now [00:08:00] and not to to play into that. Oh, I'm not that old or it's very difficult. If all of these problems are gnawing away at your comfort, Well, it it increases your illness index, doesn't it? And I'm sure all of that and it's a frightening thing thing to be completely physically dependent. You know, three years ago I had a minor stroke, and so luckily, [00:08:30] I'm fully recovered, etcetera. But suddenly you know, I travelled a lot. I did a lot of things. I was very brave and I. I felt really lacking in self confidence and things. I. I don't want to. We can just do it individually in ourselves. And we do need community. And you have this resolution. Yes, we have a resolution which we're going to firstly present to the caucus that on older [00:09:00] LGBTI members, uh, tomorrow and we hope to bring it to Ross Noonan so that she can cover it in the final plenary. We would like this conference to endorse the government's, you know, forced government commitment to looking at these issues. The whole conference is based on this yoga Carta principles, and what we find is we need to emphasise [00:09:30] that it's not just sexual minorities, but ageing sexual minorities that have to have the right to affordable housing The right to excellent, uh, health care and to some extent, the the ageism of our own community sometimes says, Oh, when we talk about sexual and minorities, we're talking about kids. For instance, we were when we initially put in our abstract to be at this conference, they gave us the other stream, Uh, and why were we other? Because, well, being [00:10:00] was seem to have to do with drugs, alcohol and HIV. Uh, how do we live with that? Well, actually, we all get old, you know, and well being the whole concept of LGBTI well being has to include this transitioning we're doing into a different stage stages of our lives.

IRN: 377
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_roshan_mahato.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004187
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089481
TITLE: Roshan Mahato
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Roshan Mahato
INTERVIEWER: Jim Whitman
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Nepal; Roshan Mahato; Wellington Town Hall; human rights
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Roshan Mahato from Nepal talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: What? How did you feel about the first session this morning? Oh, it's really fantastic and interesting. Um, it's really good in participating as a person from Nepal. Um, did it say anything that helped you to understand what you might do next? When you go back to Nepal, I understand that you're a game. You're perhaps a game. Uh, that [00:00:30] means, uh, I can see with my friends that I got new knowledge in New Zealand and a and a different knowledge. What is the legality for being gay in Nepal? Ok, um, in 2007, our Supreme Court of Nepal, they gave order to the government for [00:01:00] equal opportunity, opportunity to LGBTI and same sex marriage and for everything, like men and all men. But the government, they are not applying aid. It's very difficult. So then then then uh uh right now, uh, current moment, we are making a new constitution in file. Then there is one [00:01:30] MP F member from gay community, and he is trying to include every agenda of sexual and gender marriage. I think our MP from Nepal, he is coming today, and he is also key Speaker of Friday. I read something about him. He he's a new and also gay that he first time coming off as a gay member in Nepal. Parliament. First time [00:02:00] to the police. Persecute you? Um, yes, sometimes not me, but you know, my friends, a lot of friends, uh, the state and put in prison. Yeah, they used to put in prison, but right now, after Supreme Court order is reduced. So it's it's a little bit safer. Since the courts have [00:02:30] acted coming to Wellington it it can be a lot easier to be gay here. What would you like to hear from Wellington people, or or people from New Zealand or the kind of support you'd like Like to say, You know, Wellington is very clean and beautiful and ocean and people are very, very, you know, good, because they respect each other and for gay people. And it's very easy [00:03:00] to, you know, to tell them that she's my girlfriend. He's my boyfriend. It's very easy to tell, you know, But in a we don't have, we cannot say that he's my girlfriend. He's my boyfriend. We cannot introduce. It's very difficult, but here it's very easy. What would you like. What kind of help can people in New Zealand give people in Nepal? Um, yeah, just like I want to tell I be for two years. [00:03:30] Uh, you know, as the first trans MP of New Zealand, she she went to Nepal and made lots of political leaders and also senior human rights official. Then, you know, she aware that sexual and gender man who really help from and, uh, they want to include their agenda in new constitution like this New Zealand, you know? [00:04:00] So you see New Zealand as a model? Yeah, because, you know, in Nepal and New Zealand we have very good relation because of in Man Hilary. So we really need different kinds of support, which which will help for our new constitution and for our community, since there is still discrimination. So New Zealand government or they can't help to [00:04:30] the GB i in different way. Yes. So people who visit from New Zealand to Nepal, people who are politicians or business people if they're positive about the sexual agenda, the identity, the agenda Yeah, they were very negative. But you know, slowly it's changing because of lobby because of them. We do different kinds of presentation [00:05:00] regarding sexuality. It was very difficult. But now it's slowly. It's going to change, but we have to do last last thing still. Now, what are you looking forward to in this conference? What's the next dream you're going to go to? Yeah, Firstly, um, I I'm I took part in drawing sports. Then. Secondly, I'm going to, uh, participate [00:05:30] in three days conference. And after I'm going to spend one week in Auckland. So here, um, this I'm getting different kinds of knowledge. Not only, but here is geographical movement. Then, you know, we believe that New Zealand is a developed country, but Nepal is pretty poor and developing country. So when I back to my country, whatever I learn [00:06:00] here, I can apply in my daily work for our community so it will help to push government and for society. I'm also a student of sociology and, you know, in our University of Nepal, it's really very difficult to get admission, admit, you know, to get enrolled in college if they see transgender. He is transgender lesbian, you know, they [00:06:30] they will not get take admission and also some, you know, Polish army. They are fired from army. If police officer know that she making relation with lesbian or gay, they know more job so and a lot of transgender They are going to street for sex order and due to sex. Or there is also, you know, a high rate of HIV. So it's very difficult. Would it help if [00:07:00] that in in this conference there are gay and lesbian police people? Would it help if some of those visited Nepal and talked to people there? Yeah, she is lesbian. Then she we army and she fired from army. Then she kept in jail 60 days. Then she is also coming here with me. Then she is going to do presentation that How did [00:07:30] she join in Army? How did she fired from Army? He is doing so. It will be great. So a lot will know that her story So a lot of will lobby her story so it will help to for our movement. You could because of that story, ask for help from the army people here who are gay, Um, and for a gay and lesbian and police [00:08:00] who are gay and lesbian, perhaps to to to argue the case for greater tolerance in Nepal.

IRN: 376
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_robert_collins.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004186
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089480
TITLE: Robert Collins
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Robert Collins
INTERVIEWER: Jim Whitman
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Australia; Robert Collins; Wellington Town Hall; human rights
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Robert Collins from Australia talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Have you come for both the sports and the conference? Um, mainly for the conference. So that medal there is no, that's just for show. And so we've had the best part of. We're nearly at the end of the first day. What have you made of it? Um, it's What I've enjoyed is the variety of speakers, and I'm able to switch from one stream to the other. So it's given me the flexibility [00:00:30] to to get a a great overview, and it was wonderful to get the speakers this morning. I'm very interested in the, um, some of the Pacific Islands because my partner's from Samoa, So it's giving me a whole new outlook as well. And being kid, he closer to him as well, because we can share things in common now. That is difficult, isn't it? It's very. It's very easy to stick in the West, isn't it, so to speak, the Northern Hemisphere and the West? Um, it's [00:01:00] a slow business, learning more. When we discovered that one of the we mentioned one of the themes was strength in diversity, I've always been brought up that unity is diverse. Unity is strength, but I can see now that there is probably greater strength in the diversity because you get a wider range of views. You're not just stuck to a narrow vision. Yes. So some specific examples of the diversity you've learned about Well, certainly [00:01:30] the intersex and the transgender communities not had a great deal to deal with those before. Um, and some of the Samoan girls they interesting to talk to. So again, that has helped me to strengthen my ties at home as well. With my partner. Um, have you been to any of the legal sections? No. I'm going to one now, which, which is on the, um, sort of the the wrapping up. I've I've studied [00:02:00] the yo principles before, so I left that aside, Um, but I'm going to I'm going to the next one now, which will at least talk about future actions and so on. Yes, that's the future actions. It's something that the conference organisers were keen to promote something for future years. And of course, next week's, um decision as well, which is going forward, is another one I'm interested in, too, in which I can report back into Brisbane when I get home as Well, I'm involved with, [00:02:30] um with a gay friendly church as well. And also a counselling service in Brisbane. So it'll be able I'll be able to transmit meet a lot of the information, uh, through my dealings there as well is, is Brisbane society inclusive? Is it very white? Um well, it's quite a large indigenous community with the Aboriginals more so. I lived in Melbourne before, and that was all white. Whereas Brisbane has got, um [00:03:00] well, in in, as I see it, in particularly where I live in the in the valley. Um, it's quite a big indigenous community, and sometimes they're a little bit. There needs to be greater education and awareness. Um, they're very welfare oriented and so on. So they need to which I found here. The here are wonderful. They're far more approachable. Um, they feel trust more trusted with them as well, because they seem to be more loving, caring. It's [00:03:30] interesting and personally what you got to take away with you? Is it the stuff around your Parliament? Certainly. Yes. And some of the information on the law reform that I'd like to take that with me. Um, I'll be interested to hear what, what in some of the Pacific islands, how how they've approached it as well, because particularly in the colonial areas, I know certainly in in parts of Asia the the the the British colonies there. So India and those parts there, they're still unfortunately living under colonial [00:04:00] laws. They haven't sort of brought up to the British standard now, which is into a different area of law reform. When you hear of killings and that sort of thing, it really makes your blood boil to think that's happening. Still, I got the sense from this afternoon session that the Brits, perhaps on their own, managed to export a lot of the criminal codes that what it is and the that's right, they're still relying on Queen Victoria laws. They haven't. Whereas Britons have come up to the 21st century in their law reform. But the colonial [00:04:30] countries still have to do that.

IRN: 375
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_ricardo_de_menezes.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004185
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089479
TITLE: Ricardo de Menezes
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ricardo de Menezes
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Canada; Ricardo de Menezes; human rights; unions
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Ricardo de Menezes from Canada talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um, I'm from Calgary, Alberta, In Canada. Uh, I work for the United Food and Commercial Workers. We're a private sector trade union in Canada. And, um, I work as a staff representative, and I represent about 1500 employees in Calgary. Uh, I also have the GB LT liaison. I'm a human rights advocate for the local. So what I do is I I investigate human rights concerns and complaints in our province and try and help people if they choose to go to the Human Rights Commission with it, try and help them with the information. And I've been fitted with the task of, um working with, uh, GB LT issues because our union is really trying to get [00:00:30] into the community support aspect of GB LT um, community and, uh, especially with rights in the workplace, because everyone does have to work, no matter what, uh, path of life, we walk and, um, GB LT issues is a strong one. Even though it's protected under the law, it's not protected always at work, and the private sector has been really lacking in protecting people's rights at work. So, um, I do that as in respect of I also work with temporary foreign workers and migrant workers in Canada as well. So so what are some of the the major issues that are cropping up that you're funding? Uh, mostly, it's a discrimination in the [00:01:00] workplace, the rights to promotions and the rights to to a free A workplace free of harassment, especially with transgender individuals. And, uh, GB, especially gay and lesbian don't have it as much anymore. But in the private sector in the building trade in a more, uh, more hetero sexist environment. They they suffer the most, um, but the transgender suffer the most, um, across the board. So we we advocate towards getting gender expression and gender equality into our collective agreements, um, to ensure that employers are held accountable for discrimination in the workplace as well as, um, um, [00:01:30] the discrimination that, uh, stems from, uh, coworkers as well. Is it easy to prove discrimination? No, not at all. Um, the first thing that has to be done is the person has to come forward to me to say they've been discriminated against. And then they have to openly write statements and and file formal complaints with their employer, which essentially, uh, puts a target on their back, so it takes a lot of courage for them to do that. So that's why I have to be the advocate and come forward and say that the union is a safe place. If the employer is in a safe place or your coworkers are not safe places for you, the union will help you, right, And we will protect [00:02:00] you if any further discrimination comes forward. But it's just getting that first step into the comfort that I try to advocate for. So what kind of percentage would it between, you know, discrimination and actual cases that go ahead. What? What is that? I would say less than 5 to 10% of people would come forward with me. Yeah, um, employers are really proactive. Now when it comes to GB LT issues and discrimination, it's something they don't really want to see in publicly. Um, it's unfortunate that sometimes we have to push that whole threat of media and public, uh, stuff [00:02:30] like that against them, but they really don't like that. So, um, the problem is that the transgender issues aren't really openly accepted in in society as well. So it's even more difficult for us to threaten public action. So we have to just work work within the framework of law and and that's that's the most difficult part. But it's still a challenge that I like to take. Yet do you think it's getting harder or easier? It is getting easier. Society is becoming more progressive and society is becoming more accepting. But it's just a question of, um, we like things to go a lot faster than they're actually going. And so we have to try and push those comfort levels of people [00:03:00] and push those boundaries for people to to try and realise that it's it's not, uh, it's just a person here who's here to work and earn a wage and pay the bills and get the economy going like everyone else. So, yeah, attending these conferences what what? What do they mean to you? They mean, uh, networking for most, uh, for first and foremost is networking. Um, when I attended Copenhagen in 2009 and and and now I like to know what other people in the same field or even in the same um who who have the same challenge as me are doing? Um, it's very interesting to hear what [00:03:30] they're doing worldwide so we can take that whole thing to Canada because Canada in and of itself is, uh, a spectrum of, uh, of different laws and different acceptance and tolerances from nation to province to province. So to hear what they're doing. And so I can take things back to our national body, we can do a national programme. Uh, not just one for the province of Alberta as well. So it always seems to me it's quite hard to kind of keep the momentum of what happens at a conference going, uh, later down the track. I mean, do you have any ideas about how to how to take the words here and actually turn them into actions? Yeah, well, you know, the first thing we can do [00:04:00] is provide the information to all the unions that advocate for them to change their own internal organ. That's the first thing unions have to do is if you want to change your environment, is to clean up your own backyard, right. So to change our own constitutions and our own bylaws to have gender expression, gender equality and then to get them all out into the community to do that. So, uh, actually, this year is the first year that, um, my union and our national body, which represents about 350,000 people across Canada, we are attending every pride parade in Canada. Um, this year So that's the first thing we're doing is that community action network thing. And now we're gonna start through negotiations forcing employers to start [00:04:30] recognising gender equality, gender expression in the collective agreement. So that's my first step, um, to to keep the momentum going. And you know, the more ideas you get, especially from the European Trade Union Commission. And and and now I want to try and learn from Asia Pacific as well, especially because transgender issues are huge in the Pacific region as well. So it's a good thing to learn. Yeah, pride, parades and pride festivals are really interesting. Can you talk about, um, just visibility? What? What's the importance of that visibility is is that, um if you have a float down there that says UFCW, somebody may be working in our workplaces that knows [00:05:00] and sees UFCW but doesn't make that connection to that being their union. And if we can be out there in the streets giving up pamphlets giving out any sort of, uh, propaganda or any sort of even it's a pin saying UFCW your rights in the workplace. They'll put that to two together. So now does it work as a as a catalyst and as a tool to to organise and bring the comfort levels on side to the union for the people that already work in our workplaces that don't put two and two together. But it also acts as a catalyst towards getting more people interested in what a union can do for them in their workplace. Right, Because if we're out there and we're saying that we protect your [00:05:30] rights at work and they'll say, What can a union do for me? So community action is really our best way to be on the front lines of battling whatever we can in the workplace. Yeah, if we look into the future, say, 30 years time and somebody is listening back to this, what would be the thing that you would say to them? Well, hopefully the the Union density will have increased right and we can hopefully have our first, uh, either transgendered worker of colour, uh, female, uh, sitting in the top echelons of power. Right? And that's what we look to get right? Because, as I said before, everyone works. And hopefully [00:06:00] we can get to a point where where your sexuality and your gender identity don't matter, and you can just work right and be someone that operates in everyday of society and not have to worry about being discriminated against, right? My goal is to not only have GB LT people, um, to be that person next to you on the bus that you sit next to you without having to care or know, but also to be those people that that that hold those upper echelons of power and hold those positions of power and can be a great influence in society as well. Right? Georgina Baker here in New Zealand is a great example of what can be done right worldwide. So [00:06:30] yeah, it's good. It's very good.

IRN: 374
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_rani_ravudi.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004184
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089478
TITLE: Rani Ravudi
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Rani Ravudi
INTERVIEWER: Jim Whitman
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Fiji; Rani Ravudi; Wellington Town Hall; human rights
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Rani Ravudi from Fiji talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm finding it. Very, um, interesting and fruitful. I'm learning a lot. A lot of new things. Um, I'm meeting new people. I, um coming to this conference. I've met some people who I've met before, but then I've, uh, met some new people. It's always nice to meet new people because I get to learn new things and exchange ideas on how things are done. Fiji is a It's a difficult [00:00:30] place politically to live in. It has been for a long while. Oh, yeah, You can say that again. It's very difficult. But then, um, with our current government, there's some They've done some quite quite some good things which I liked, I think which I think is good. Like, um, for instance, uh, at one stage, they removed the right to sexual orientation from our constitution and, uh, about a year or a year and [00:01:00] a half ago, they had the new Fiji crime decree, and it it's it's mentioned there that everyone has the right to sexual orientation. So I that's with that I. I fully support the the the the the Fiji Government and I'm so happy that they've recognised that. But the thing is that, um, people need to understand what sexual orientation is the general public. Because with the issues faced by [00:01:30] LGBT people, I think people need to be aware of the law itself or the the authorities themselves. Because most of the time they are the ones inflicting the violence and violating the human rights of the citizens of Fiji with, uh, with me, Uh, I'm well equipped with my human rights as well. So when the police pick me up or they take me, so I give them I tell them what [00:02:00] I know. So that kind of makes them step back to and, um, um violate my human rights. But unfortunately, most of the trans people in my country are illiterate. This is due to a rejection from home at an early age, so they tend to drop out of school, run away, they don't finish school at all. And, uh, when they get picked up by the police, [00:02:30] they just They just let the police, uh, violate their human rights and abuse them. And that's that suggests a couple of things, really, that that a lot of trans people know very early on, and they try and be trans early on, and that's the point of rejection from from the family and family. And community is important normally anyway. [00:03:00] But I guess in a country like Fiji or Pacific culture, if there is one, makes you an outsider. An outcast, Yes. So that's why I went, uh, take me, for instance. Like I grew up in a in a village setting with a religious, um, with a strong religious background. And, um, when I was growing up, I was being feminine. People tried to mould me into something I'm not. They tried to [00:03:30] mould me, but they don't know who I am. I know who I am. Inside, they beat me up. They do all sorts of things to me. But that never changed me. And then one day I just got and well, I've got sick. I always get sick of it. But then one day, I could just couldn't take it anymore. And then I decided to run away to the city and, uh, live my life as a trans woman. And you met other trans people. I'm well when I ran away to the city, I met other trans people who were involved in the sex [00:04:00] industry. But since I was dropping out of school, no qualification, no job. So I tend to They took me under their wings and looked after me for a while. And that stopped you from starving? Yeah. It put a roof over my head, food on my table and, um, helped with my other needs and wants. Do you fail? You've had a proper choice in your occupation. It's not [00:04:30] that that sex work is wrong, but yeah. Would you have liked a better choice? Well, I've always to be a lawyer. I've always wanted to be a lawyer. I've always wanted to be a lawyer. But then when I when I, um, dropped out of school, I had no other choice, but that I did do sex work. And I've been doing it for a while. Um, I've got a I've kind of adapted to it, and then I I've kind of liked it and then doing human rights [00:05:00] activism like, I'm always fighting for transgenders and sex workers. I've kind of I kind of liked it. But if I if I was given the chance to go back and study I, I would Is there a chance of that, do you think? Uh, well, financially, I don't think so. But if I had if I if I was given the chance because, um, coming from Fiji, we we, uh it's, [00:05:30] uh the cost of living is very high. And to go into law school would be for me, especially. I would have to go back and do my foundation studies, because that's where I left it. Because that's where I dropped out to go back and do my foundation studies. Well, it's a challenge for me. Yes, If I I feel like if I stopped doing it now, who would Who would fight [00:06:00] for the rights of my other sisters? That's a big thing with you. And so coming to this conference has been part of that. And, um, like for for take, for instance, like the Trans Man, you know, it was I've always heard of trans men, but coming to this conference on the first day when we had the the I don't know, I had mixed feelings because I met all these [00:06:30] trans men and I think they were. They were they look so good. And it was the first chance for me or first time for me to get the chance to meet them. Because at back home we have We don't really have trans men. We have women who they are, sort of, uh, F to M trans. But they don't identify themselves as trans men because they just identify themselves as, uh, Bush Bush lesbians [00:07:00] May it's Maybe it's because, uh, if they had the the the hormo they had. If we had a specialist that specialised in the transition, for example hormonal intake, they would be happy to take it. I'm sure. I assure you that they will be happy to to take it. And maybe they would identify themselves as trans men, and the same goes for us to like For for us trans women, we just, uh, [00:07:30] go. And by the the the the tablets of the counter, we don't It's not monitored. There's no specialist monitoring it or anything. So and and do you find a lack of medical care for you? Yeah, definitely. There's There's no there's no, uh, special. Uh uh. Like I said, there's no specialist for trans health care with the medical profession. Try and change you. Do you think, uh, [00:08:00] they will try, but it's not gonna happen. Never. I'm happy with who I am. I'm comfortable. My family has come to accept me for for me being myself, they finally come to accept it for the last seven years. Seven years? Yeah. So that makes a big difference. Yes, they they they've come to finally accept me like I can go to my village dressed as who you are. Yes. And nobody will say [00:08:30] anything. Well, but then we I have I've had, uh uh, uh, quarrels and arguments with some people in the village. And I tell them I don't give a damn. I don't give my ass what you say because I don't. As long as my father and my mother, they understand me for who I am. That's all that matters. Who the hell are you? I've because when I was in the village one day, when I went to the village like my auntie because, like I said, I come from a very religious [00:09:00] background. My auntie came up to me and said, You know, you were born a man. You should be a man, blah, blah, blah. Look at your brothers and your sisters and your cousins. They all have kids. And I just said, Who are you? You don't tell me what to do. And I slammed the door on her face, and then she went and told my father that I was being rude, and my my dad just turned back and told her Just leave her alone. She's happy with what she is. That's all that matters. So you do now have a home, [00:09:30] don't you? Properly. Well, I don't really, uh, live with my my family. I live in I live in a I have a house in where my house in is like a safe haven for trans. Uh, trans women, trans women who workers like I have a two bedroom house, and sometimes I have 10 transgenders in my two bedroom house, so Yeah, but I've had, uh, such lovely neighbours, and they don't complain [00:10:00] at all. So you what you are and you're working. Human rights are very close together, aren't they? Yeah, it's very tightly part of your life. Um, Currently, um, I am I'm currently also the the the the reigning queen for the the national transgender FA in Fiji. So Yeah, so I'm doing both kind of advocating for trans transgenders and sex [00:10:30] workers as well. The competitions seem to mean something very different for you and other trans people, or it It's a They're not beauty. They're not beauty contests in the same way that, like in America, that they're more of an expression of political statement. Possibly, Uh, yes. I think it was a way of for our community [00:11:00] to create awareness to the people that we exist. People might come and to watch the show to laugh, have a laugh and go back home. But then, when they I think when they go back home, they they get a clear message that we are here, we exist. And sometimes in these competitions our issues are addressed as well. You Do you feel better valued [00:11:30] as a person as a result of the competitions and performance? Part of it? Yes. Definitely. Definitely matter of pride. And yes, uh, yes, I can understand that. Um, when do you leave? I'm leaving on the Sunday morning. Are you looking forward to leaving? Um, I think I'm falling in love with Wellington. Even though it's windy, it's cold. [00:12:00] I think I'm falling in love with Wellington and I look forward to coming back, and I look forward to, um, attending more meetings like this with trans people, especially a lot. A lot of my friends, brothers and my Trans sisters.

IRN: 373
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_ramon_vorkauf.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004183
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089477
TITLE: Ramon Vorkauf
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ramon Vorkauf
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Australia; Ramon Vorkauf; Wellington Town Hall; human rights
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Ramon Vorkauf from Australia talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, well, my name is Ramon. I'm here for the out games. I was going to register as a participant. However, because I was travelling in the Outback of Australia without a phone or Internet connectivity, I wasn't able to complete the registration. Um, before I got back to Melbourne, So I thought, Well, since I've already got my flights and accommodation booked for Wellington, I'll just come over and volunteer my time. Is this the first kind of queer human rights conference you've been to? It is. Yes, It's the first one. And, uh, from the welcoming, [00:00:30] Um um, seminar this morning. Just judging from that, it looks like it's going to be a very interesting conference indeed. What do you expect or what do you want out of it? I had absolutely no expectations at all. Um, the only thing I would like to get out of it, I suppose, is, um, connecting with other people and discussing with them their, you know, adventures and journeys, I suppose, And hearing their stories. A few of the speakers this morning, for example, were very engaging. [00:01:00] Are you involved in the kind of queer community in Melbourne? Very little. No, not very much at all. I pretty much just work 9 to 5. Go home, maybe go out on the weekends sometimes, but not very often. And that's that's about the extent of it. But I do a lot of travel as well, not only for work, but for pleasure. And so, in terms of human rights in relation to, say, queer people in Australia, how are they at this point in time? Um, I'm not, [00:01:30] to be honest, entirely sure, Um, I know that it's still a long way to go with certain, um, issues, particularly around gay marriage, for example. And as someone mentioned this morning, a lot of people are setting are settling for an equivalent or, you know, something to to, um, appease us for the time being, as opposed to giving us the same thing that heterosexuals have. Um, those sorts of things I think need to be discussed more. Um, there are groups that [00:02:00] do that in Melbourne. Uh, there's at least one MP that I know of who is gay. And, um um, uh works quite hard towards achieving those sorts of goals, but, um, how things are overall in Australia or or you know, more locally in Melbourne. I wouldn't. Wouldn't be too sure. So how was it for you then? In terms of personally, have you, um, kind of had any discrimination in terms of your sexuality or gender? I would say none at all. I'm quite privileged. Um, no problems at all. Except, [00:02:30] uh, when I was much younger with family, a couple of members weren't so happy about that kind of news. But everybody else friends, school work. There have never been any problems in terms of things like school. Um, was when you were going through school, wasn't mentioned in, you know, in class. It was mentioned a little bit. Not very much in sex Ed, for example. Things like that would be touched upon but not really discussed in depth. And obviously, [00:03:00] Children being Children around that age, going through puberty, they would be gossiping about who they think is gay and things like that and making jokes and be a little bit of bullying, especially to people who were obviously gay, even though that could be wrong. But people that were perceived to be obviously gay would often be ridiculed or bullied. But overall, as far as the school curriculum was concerned. It was there a little bit, but not a lot. And so what about in workplaces now? Do you [00:03:30] feel comfortable or can you be out in your workplace? I think that I can, Yes, absolutely no problem at all. I can say that confidently. And are you out at work? In my previous job, I was, and that was no problem. And I would discuss what I got up to on the weekend with a couple of colleagues of mine. Or they might ask about who I was dating at the time. And, you know, I would ask him and her the same sorts of things so we would have an open conversation around those things, and it was never an issue. But [00:04:00] I realise how lucky that is. And not everyone has those privileges. In a previous job, when I was much younger, I used to work with a lesbian woman who was in her fifties, and she told me terrible stories of being bullied at work and losing jobs and things like that when they found out that she was a lesbian. So she said that you know, us whipper snappers, these days have got it quite quite easy compared to to back then because she used to march in the in the parades where there were riots and everything like that in the streets. Um, this [00:04:30] is going way back to the seventies, I would imagine. But she used to be a part of that. And she she was a part of the group of people that were first fighting and campaigning for equality and those rights and things. And now I guess my generation is living with the benefits. Are there any specific things that need to be fought for nowadays? Hm? In developed countries, um, it's becoming easier. Um, but in other nations, for example, around African [00:05:00] nations, definitely more more funding and campaigning things need to go on. Education of the public, I think, is the biggest way to do it. The easiest way. Well, you know the only way too many people still don't know what it means to be gay. They can't imagine it. So they because they can't see themselves in that position or doing what they think it is that we do. Then they turn against it and come up with their own ideas and and basically hate you for it. [00:05:30] So, um, in terms of things that need to be done still, obviously not becoming complacent still maintaining, um, equal rights and things like that, um, and achieving full equality, not not just for, you know, some mediocre step in between. You know, like, um, civil unions, It's not the same as a marriage. So we still need to work on things like that in your travels. Have you sensed there's a kind of a common theme through kind of queer culture, or is it quite different in each country that [00:06:00] you've been to in the countries that I've been to so far, the queer culture for want of a better expression has been pretty much the same. Actually, I've travelled around New Zealand, Australia and Europe, and my experience is that it's a very similar feeling. The only difference is, I think, in New Zealand, and also in Europe, gay marriage or the equivalent is legal and accepted, whereas in Australia it is not. [00:06:30] Which is quite disappointing. Are there any other similarities? Yeah, the similarities would be Well, my perception is that especially with young gay guys too much you know, party, party drinking, that sort of thing going on, um, you know, trying to to pick up and things like that. That's a common theme, I think, among young gay men, particularly in Europe, actually. Well, you see it everywhere. [00:07:00] It's common between Australia and and Germany, but I've seen it a lot worse. Or, you know, just more so in Europe than I have here. Well, that kind of brings up the whole kind of thing of kind of safe sex and kind of HIV and AIDS and stuff. And what are your experiences in Terms of, I mean, is safe sex practised in all those locations or most definitely, it's not, um, the younger generation is becoming, uh, ignorant or complacent about it. [00:07:30] Previously, I think in the eighties there was a scare campaign. I guess you could say, with the advertising on television, really driving home that message about AIDS, and you don't take the risk. You're gambling with your life, that sort of thing. But now that message is forgotten. It's falling on deaf ears. Obviously, if the party scene and the rave scene, drugs and alcohol play a part and lead to people taking risks that they might not normally take. And the [00:08:00] education, I guess, is lacking a little bit as well, and also with modern medical treatment. I guess many people are thinking, Oh, if I do get something, then there's treatment for that Life expectancy and so on with HIV AIDS is now greatly increased, so they may be not thinking that it will greatly impact their life. But regardless of what medical advances there are, it is still going to impact your life even socially. If you have to tell someone. Oh, by the way, I'm positive or what have [00:08:30] you? Um, then your relationship with that person is going to be changed. So it's not just the medical side of it as well. And a lot of people are not realising that. So did you have any kind of role models or kind of gay icons that you looked up to that that kind of gave you this kind of, uh, I mean, you seem to have quite a holistic view on things or a very balanced, stable view on things. Uh, I guess I'm asking, you know, where does that [00:09:00] come from? There's no particular role model that I have. Actually, I grew up in a very small town on the south coast of New South Wales and Australia, And, um, during school, Um, I didn't know anyone else that was gay. There were no role models in the public. Um, there wasn't much, you know, queer television, either. I mean, the only show I can recall back then would be, uh, will and Grace, for example. But that's not much to base your own life on, is it? Um, I guess where some of those ideas [00:09:30] and things come from that I have are from my own experiences and also from some of my older friends. For example, the lady I used to work with, who was a Lisbon and fought really hard and a friend of mine in Germany who is also in his forties or fifties. Now who's gone through some of the same things. Um, and he's also very, very vigilant when it comes to safe sex and things like that and tells, you know, everybody to be the same because, you know, it's not just one thing that you could get. It's a range of things and, um, yeah, [00:10:00] I've taken on board some of the lessons that he's taught as well like from his own experiences. If we were to look forward 30 years, um and somebody was listening back to this recording, what would you like to say to them? If anything, um, I would like to ask them. Have we achieved equality completely, 100%. And, um, is your life good? Well, finally, can I ask [00:10:30] those two questions to you? I mean one. Have Do you think you've achieved equality and two, Is your life good? No. And yes. Um, no. Equality is still not there yet. Um, I don't feel completely OK or safe about telling everybody I meet that I'm gay. In fact, there are some circumstances where it's better not to. Um and it's also not necessary. In a lot of, you know, cases. Like when I go to work, I'm there to work. I don't have to go and say hi. My name is Raman. I'm gay. How [00:11:00] are you? Like that's completely unnecessary. Um um And about my life. Am I happy? The answer is yes. I've got everything I need.

IRN: 308
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_phylesha_brown_acton_keynote.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004131
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089425
TITLE: Phylesha Brown-Acton - AsiaPacific Outgames
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Phylesha Brown-Acton
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Ilott Theatre; MVPFAFF+; Maryan Street; Phylesha Brown-Acton; Wellington Town Hall; activism; fa'afafine; health; transcript online; transgender
DATE: 18 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Phylesha Brown-Acton delivers a keynote presentation. Phylesha is introduced by Maryan Street. The presentation happened during the third plenary session: Movement building for change.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Felicia is, uh, Cook Island Samoan, and she's a professional Polynesian cultural entertainer, is descended from a line of master weavers and has used and extended this knowledge to produce costumes in the Miss South Pacific beauty pageants. From 1995 to 2000, she has won major awards in several categories. At these events, Felicia works for the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. On their HIV [00:00:30] prevention response for Pacifica, she uses an evidence based model that builds healthy and strong social environments and develops strong and supportive communities. She also focuses on peer leadership and developing skills in community members to deliver services and programmes within their own communities. Felicia, Welcome. [00:01:00] Thank you very much, Mary, for the introduction. Firstly, I'd like to acknowledge a and to the many New Zealanders here today, thank you for hosting such an outstanding event. I would like to also thank management the cooks, the cleaners who have feared us and cleaned up after us and made us feel so welcome for [00:01:30] us to my Pacific sisters and brothers. Although soon it will be farewell, I can honestly say it is wonderful to see the Pacific finally being represented and saying this I give sincere thanks to the Kingdom of the Netherlands for getting us here to Barry Taylor and Jack Burn for your [00:02:00] assistance to our Asian and international delegates. I need not say welcome, but I wish you safe travels home, Maori and a as you know, my name is Felicia Barton and I'm currently the programme coordinator [00:02:30] for international development at the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. But it's also important to note that I'm not here with my NZAF cap on today. I'm here actually, as a Pacific delegate. I'm of Cook Island American and a, uh, American and Australian descent raised by a Tongan stepfather but founded upon a upbringing. I identify as and also [00:03:00] I'm not here today to speak to make you laugh. I am not here today to make you cry nor disrespect anyone or group. I'm here today to make a serious statement about how we feel in the Pacific based on my observations of my work thus far. And after speaking to the many of you in this room during the last three days, I was initially going to emphasise what is going on in the Pacific. What work is happening [00:03:30] currently, what has been achieved and the challenges going forward. But since being here, I think that a movement amongst US Pacific people is ready to burst. Perhaps it's a combination of a few journeys that have been woven together. Perhaps it is the people who have been and are now involved. Perhaps it is the wonderful setting of the capital city of Aotearoa, which not too long ago had its first [00:04:00] Taku mayoral candidate in this and later on the world's first Taku member of parliament, Mr Georgina Baer. Although the topic today is movement building for change raising the Pacific Rainbow, I want to touch on some very important topics raised by the two previous Pacific keynote speakers who captured the history of the term so eloquently and made reference to the umbrella term LGBTI as a term [00:04:30] that has no reference to US specific peoples but rather a reference term akin to something more medical, which refers to sickness or to fit groups within groups within groups which goes against the very fabric of of traditional Pacific terminology for us as a group and miss from the association who captivated us with an in depth overview of the place that culture, respect and guardianship of spirits has in place of the in Samoan. [00:05:00] Amongst many other discussions this week, there were key points which I need to raise with you all today. My failure to do so would be an injustice to this amazing vibe and sense of pride. Um, I am feeling right now. So here is my hit list one, the use of the abbreviated term LGBTI and why it doesn't fit in with US Pacific peoples. Two. [00:05:30] The inclusion of our culturally appropriate identity terms three nonrepresentational Pacific peoples at Asia Pacific and Global Forums. The global use of the LGBTI abbreviation is overwhelming. It is a term we know so many ethnicities and people use with pride around the world. It is a term we in the Pacific understand and have been bundled into bundled into for no apparent reason other than that of application [00:06:00] and the absence of any other term. All Pacific peoples with a different sexual orientation to straighten heterosexuals shall shall be henceforth collectively called LGBTI. Granted, it has history, and it has a place in Western civilization. But in the Pacific it shows passive ignorance, ignorance on the part of the agencies and the governments that use this label this term to label us. I've said it before. LGBT S name and meanings do not belong to us in the Pacific. [00:06:30] It is not how we identify ourselves. It is not relevant to our place in society. It saddens and hurts me because I've heard a few whispers around the town hall during the conference around. Well, if their patron is the prime minister, then why haven't they signed the joint statement? I am assuming they are referring to the joint statement on ending acts of violence and related human rights violations based on sexual orientation and gender identity. What they don't see is the lobbying work [00:07:00] of the FAI Association at the United Nations level, and given that Samoa has just had its elections with a crossover period of caretaker government in which no treaties can be ratified or major decisions made until a new government is sworn in, perhaps that is the real reason why we agree and see the relevance of pressuring our governments to endorse this joint statement, and we see the benefits of its universality. Make no mistake about that, [00:07:30] but before we even get to ink on paper in order to achieve an endorsement of this kind or any kind, we want to make sure that reference to the culturally appropriate terms for us are used so that there is no more relevance to do so that there is more relevance to documents and that they are not bypassed because it is made reference to LGBTI. Not only that, but it makes sense that the percentage of ours and our leaders will be much higher, that using [00:08:00] that using what are considered in the Pacific to be culturally insensitive words in terminology. The simple government officer who sits and screens the prime minister's inbox may not relate to LGBTI as having anything to do with. And it's often the reality in our countries, because our Strait Pacific island community don't get LGBTI, [00:08:30] they get our traditional terms and our definitions. We Pacific peoples here today have a responsibility in being a part of the Rainbow family to apply pressure to the government in the Pacific when endorsements like this need to be committed to. But if it has no cultural reference relevance to us, it places unnecessary barriers with our leaders to even see the importance [00:09:00] it has on us, especially when they are, especially when there are very few crimes of hate and Polynesia, but is overwhelming and happening in Melanesian and Micronesian countries. Out of the 130 countries who need to endorse this joint statement, 22 Pacific island countries and territories make up part of this voting number, which is a huge number for one region. Note that India gets one vote but have 1 billion people. [00:09:30] So the importance of our 22 votes must have some cultural reference in order for endorsements to happen. Here is another example. I love the vision and the statement of the out games. It states for all people, whatever their sexual orientation, sex or gender identity, to live in inclusive societies with equal access to the resources and services that will ensure the physical, psychological and [00:10:00] spiritual well-being of themselves and their families, to to fully participate in the economic, social, cultural and political development of their society, and also to enjoy equal protection under the laws from discrimination and violence. I was able to come to this conference because of the cultural and spiritual reference and because that there is a place at the out games here for US specific peoples [00:10:30] 0. 2. The inclusion of our culturally appropriate identity identity terms. How hard is it to understand that in each of these countries, there is an official language and a and an official term for each of us? That's 22 ways to say who we are. If you want our vote on an international forum, learn 22 words. Here's a quick demonic I've made up to help you remember. And in the spirit, of course, of the games. And that is MVPFMVP [00:11:00] FA FFM for in Tahiti in Hawaii, V for in Fiji, P for Papa in Papua New Guinea for in Samoa, in American Samoa. A for a in the Cook Islands, the second F for or in the Kingdom of Tonga, third F for in of the 22 Pacific island countries and territories [00:11:30] in the Pacific region. To even incorporate all the abbreviated, abbreviated terms, it would look something like the alphabet. Uh, but how wonderful. Also, as an example, that a Caucasian project officer from some entity, um maybe in Australia Sorry in Australia would be in Fiji, for example, for one month and talk to and address them as such to then pop over to Tahiti and speak to the and address them [00:12:00] as and then the report back to the entity. Make no mention of LGBTI, but to the culturally appropriate term. Imagine what would happen. Their superiors would instantly request a briefing of the cultural significance of this new terminology. And along the way, that entity might learn that the only way to break into the conclave of the MVP thefts of the Pacific and have meaningful dialogue is just to save the word the right [00:12:30] word. Imagine the pride in our faces as they speak to us in a term that we understand we should bend over backwards, pardon the pun, to assist such a person and show them the inner workings of our culture. And our place here is to hope. Where to in the future? [00:13:00] How do we in the Pacific raise our rainbow flag? We need you to incorporate our traditional terms into your LGBTI terminology. Who cares if it reads LGBTI MVP, FA, FF and so on? As Marilyn Waring said in her key note earlier this week, don't be afraid. Use what you have to use and we want you to use our traditional terms. She also stated that the umbrella abbreviation of [00:13:30] LGBTI movement can also jeopardise other movements. It could jeopardise ours. I would also like to reiterate the sentiments of thanks to the Kingdom of the Netherlands for again allowing the Pacific to have a voice here during this conference. It allows for us to seek more advice from key people at these events. It also allows us to be more in tune with the international networks and issues, and it gives us proper representation. [00:14:00] This is the first time in history we have had the presence and heard the voices from our sisters from American Samoa, and I am so humbled by their presence. Thanks to the Kingdom of the Netherlands, it has uplifted us to feel more included in the Asia Pacific region by being at the Out games conference. But my only pet peeve about the out um, the Asia Pacific Out Games conference is I haven't seen or known of any Pacific representative. [00:14:30] So maybe that is something Barry for you to put into your reports, Please, because we'd love to see it or have someone from the Pacific be involved at that at that level. Um, And in saying that this is where I stand strong and make this bold statement if your regional board network or entity use the Asia Pacific name if there is no Pacific representation from Pacific peoples, then take out the Pacific context or be more specific about what part of the Pacific Ocean you represent, [00:15:00] whether it be the Pacific Rim or of Pacific Peoples. Thank you very much. [00:15:30] [00:16:00] [00:16:30] Yeah. Felicia, thank you. [00:17:00] I think there will not be another Asia Pacific out games. That will be the same after that contribution.

IRN: 372
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_phylesha_brown_acton.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004182
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089476
TITLE: Phylesha Brown-Acton
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Phylesha Brown-Acton
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Phylesha Brown-Acton; Wellington Town Hall; fa'afafine; human rights; transgender
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Phylesha Brown-Acton from New Zealand talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Felicia Brown. Acton. Um, I am the programme coordinator for international development at the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. But I'm not here in the capacity of the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. I'm here as a Pacific delegate. Key points that I touched on this morning during my plenary keynote session was, um, one about the inclusion of culturally appropriate identity terms that refer to us in the Pacific. Secondly, was around proper Pacific representation on Asia Pacific and global forums. Um, and thirdly, [00:00:30] it was just more so to talk about the future and where we're at and, um, why we think it is something very important in terms of having that voice from the Pacific. Would you mind just going through those three points and just expanding on them a little bit? Sure. Well, the first point kind of because I think there's been a lot of emphasis on um, what I stated was MVPFF, which is [00:01:00] those traditional terms to us in the Pacific, actually have a place within the home within society. They are terms that we identify, and they're actually within our language prior to colonisation. So they have a lot more. I would say the feeling and the spirit behind it actually has a lot more meaning to it to us as as to whether we come from the Pacific. Now the LGBTI, [00:01:30] um, term doesn't actually relate to us in the Pacific one. The word lesbian was obviously created because of the sexual act between two women. Gay not even referring to what a gay man is or states in the dictionary that it's something to refer to as quite, you know, um, friendly or fruitful as you do. Um, and with transgender, it's a medical something created medical to explain cross sexes. Um, so I don't [00:02:00] see the relevance in identifying terms that really are not within the language, not within the spirit. And it doesn't capture the very essence of them. So that was kind of the main focus behind it. Now, in order for us to actually achieve things like signing joint statements, um, we need to have the cultural reference and relevance included under the LGBTI umbrella or alongside it, so that when we put pressure on our governments back in the Pacific [00:02:30] that they are actually they see the need for it. It's almost like a father saying that his child or her child or or or his you know, her child, um, actually need support in some sense now, I'm not saying that that's going to break barriers and pull, pull down barriers and break boundaries. But if there's a cultural reference to us, then of course it's important within our countries. And it's important for us to take responsibility and voice that to our government so that they can see the need [00:03:00] and the justice in it. So that kind of really was the focus around that part. The other part is around the representation now, in terms of representation on Asia, Asia and Asia Pacific and the Global Forum. There is very little Pacific representation, but I made a key point around the 22 Pacific island countries and territories and that when coming to factor things like, um, joint statements and stuff one. The vote does [00:03:30] count, um, and the importance behind the vote and that voice, but also that the representation needs to be there. Now if you're voting on Asia Pacific things and if there is votes from certain Asian countries or other countries and there is no vote for Pacific people. How can we call it Pacif Asia Pacific when there was no inclusion and it didn't really touch too much on it? But that's kind of the, um, the other view around it, but also the fact that the [00:04:00] name Pacific Pacific Rim Pacific peoples, the South Pacific there is a lot that defines the Pacific. Now, if it's not Pacific in relation to Pacific peoples, then be specific about what part of the Pacific you're representing now. We're really thankful to the Kingdom of the Netherlands also, because they've given us this opportunity to to be a part. And I think it's probably for me in in the last 12 years of working in this, um, this sector, it's [00:04:30] the first time I've actually seen really good representation the inclusion of the American Samoan um association. So, um, that is a voice that we have never, ever heard before. But because of that funding system through the Kingdom of the Netherlands, they have allowed for that opportunity to happen now. There should be representation of 22 Pacific island countries and territories here, and that goes to say that in terms of the inclusiveness of Asia Pacific everybody [00:05:00] needs to be involved from no matter where they come from within that region. And it's a responsibility that of those that are making the decisions, to make sure that these people are involved from its conceptual stages, right to the very end and inclusive also in the decision making. And that's my point around the, um the the um proper representation specifically with our specific peoples on these levels. [00:05:30] And there was a third point, and the third point also captures it was capturing the whole first point and the second point that making a bold statement and also touching on what Marilyn Waring said in her keynote earlier this week. And that was around. Don't be afraid. Use what you have to use and for us. We want people to use our terminology, which we identify to. We want people to make sure we are represented, but also the fact that she stated that the LGBTI [00:06:00] movement could also jeopardise others movements. And it could affect our movement in general within the Pacific, Um and then also making the bold statement around representation. So that's kind of the third point was around more so. The conclusion and the conclusion in itself. I mean, my presentation had nothing to do what I spoke about today coming here. But because of the keynote from car in and we we look there [00:06:30] and because of all the discussions here amongst all the Pacific people, it actually created some kind of a movement. And obviously, if it was movement building for change, the movement happened here for us in the Pacific. And that's what we wanted to voice across. Um, and that's kind of like where my direction came from being the last keynote speaker. Unfortunately, I had to conclude, and it wasn't. I wasn't here today to talk, to make people laugh. I wasn't here today to talk, to make people cry or [00:07:00] disrespect anyone or any group because we know we're a part of the Rainbow family. But again, our street community, they don't get LGBT back in the Pacific. What they get is our cultural references to us or terms. Um, so yeah, that's kind of where the ending sort of went forward on. And how was that plenary received? Um, actually, I think I did quite well because I got quite a lot of applauses right there. and I don't know whether you measure it up home applauses. But, you know, amongst the [00:07:30] LGBTI community, the fabs is what rains superior. So I think we from the Pacific actually came forward with some very strong statements. And I love the fact that, um, Marion Street, the who um, chaired the plenary session actually stated straight after I speak that she doesn't think there will after this conference, that there will be another conference ever the same. I think that's what she said I couldn't catch. I was too emotional. Um, but this strong statement around from what [00:08:00] she said actually captures She's actually right. It needed to be heard. It needed to be said, And this is what everybody is saying. I still see a few people noses up in the air. Um, but, you know, that could just be me taking it wrong. Um, but also, um, I think it was well received, and I and I hope it does get heard, and I hope it does, um, make change in in terms of the way people perceive us and see us because we want to be as much involved in the process as everybody else's [00:08:30] you. You've just come out of the Pacific caucus. What were the recommendations from that? The recommendations were, um, one A balance of issues. Whether they be sex work, um, lesbian or trans. They felt that, um, those issues were kind of not so many. So they would like to see, um, a balance of issues at future, um, out games, conferences or human rights conferences. Um, the other one was funding, um, the need for funding in order for Pacific, [00:09:00] um, community, uh, Pacific island community groups or people to actually attend in the future because it is a downfall for us. Um, the other one was, um, further Pacific forums for us to continue communicating amongst one another in forums to discuss, um, human rights relevant to us in the Pacific so that we can align, align them to international human rights and also to future, um, out games, human rights conferences. Um, [00:09:30] so that was another one. There also, um, was the recommendation around the culturally appropriate, um, references or terms MVPFF and out of this caucus, we've managed to, um, note key peoples as representatives for those countries. So, um, we have represented a representative from Fiji, American Samoa, Samoa, Tonga, Vanuatu in the Cook Islands. And this is to continue for the dialogue, [00:10:00] Um, and to discuss it at another level about how we can start to implement these recommendations. Um, and make sure that they're continued on and not sort of just left here in Wellington for you personally. Have there been any surprises or challenges from this conference? No, I actually, um if I was to say that it was absolutely wonderful and the experience was amazing and everything ran smoothly, I'm sure everything behind the scenes didn't go so wonderfully. [00:10:30] Um, my only my only view would be that there would be more contingency plans, especially with some of the sessions or workshops. Um, that didn't go forth. Um, because of I don't know whether it was communication with people key people that were meant to be here presenting. So I see that it should be Instead of cancelling these the workshops, something else should be put in place. Um, but besides that, I think it's, um, for us. The main thing is that we had representation here and had a voice, [00:11:00] so I can't moan about anything else. Maybe probably a bit more food because we are Pacific Islanders and we love to eat and maybe somewhere to sit when you eat. Because in our Pacific, um, and in our culture it's rude to stand and eat. Um, we like to sit and eat and communicate and around food because it's the very I mean we Polynesian, the melanesians and obviously the mess are a lot smaller, but we're big people and big eaters. What about in [00:11:30] terms of, um, differing views or speakers? I mean, have there been any ideas that have challenged your way of thinking They wouldn't voice that publicly? I can say that. And I and I honestly say that there was, um, a couple of people that actually came out to try and challenge what I actually stated today. What it comes back down to is our names existed prior to colonisation. We have that right. We must stick to that right and the identity, and we are not going to allow anyone to tell us otherwise [00:12:00] because that would be going against the very fabrication of who we are as Pacific Island people. And I guess that's because it's a ignorant perception of who we are in the Pacific and that they do have their own agendas. Um, and obviously the relationships between certain Asian countries and Pacific countries is not right. Um, but unfortunately, a lot of that does come down to the push strings and who is competing for [00:12:30] funds of whatever they may be? Um, and I understand that, and I see that, but in the same sense Pacific people being left out because other people are taking on taking money on their behalf, but not including them. Um, and I've sort of that's my overview. In terms of the the conversations, I've had one on one, but in general, I think everyone has received what has been said is [00:13:00] a right for us to actually voice that concern. But whatever anyone else's political agenda is, if it's not going to benefit the collective, the Pacific is not interested. So just so I clarify, So was the challenge that I can call you LGBTI because I can. The actual challenge was, why should we include MVPFF? Are you telling the United Nations to list every single cultural identity or term [00:13:30] when they address the LG LGBTI collective? I said, why can't they. That's what they're paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to do. Why abbreviate us under an umbrella term? Because they don't have enough time to mention or come up with? I'm not saying things to be creative, but if it doesn't have any cultural reference, this is exactly what I will continue to voice. Then it has no relevance to us. And that's the underlying factor [00:14:00] to why we voiced what we voiced. Um, and don't continue to put us in labels and fit us within labels because eventually what happens? People get left out. If somebody was hearing this tape in 30 years time or when they do, what would you say to that person? I would like to hope that that their approach within whatever they work is as simple as possible. Don't let [00:14:30] whatever directs you be dictated to you because of funds, because the measure is not fit enough because the measure is not of interest, because the measure does not fit the interests of your group if you have a genuine interest of the human right for whatever community you work in. The main factor is that the community is [00:15:00] what what matters. The most. And for me, I think that should be what drives your passion. That was what drives you to get out of bed every day to do the good work that you do. And to be honest about it, because you're not only answerable to, um your CEO or people above you, you're not only answerable to a report around being accountable and transparent, you're accountable to your very own people and the community that you serve. And without them, there [00:15:30] would be none of these positions ever created.

IRN: 371
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_philip_patston.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004181
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089475
TITLE: Philip Patston
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Philip Patston
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Philip Patston; Wellington Town Hall; activism; disability; gay; human rights; labels; politics
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Philip Patston from New Zealand talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So I'm Philip Patton, and, um, I work these days more in the, um, social change creative change base. And my attendance has been to be part of two panel discussions, one on the interface between the disability and trans communities and [00:00:30] the other looking at issues around disability, mental health, and the queer for want of a better term communities. What were some of the issues that were raised in those presentations? I mean, I, I think that, um, probably in the trends and disability for, um the issue of [00:01:00] patho organisation and medicalization was was quite paramount. And how do we learn from each other about how to move what is often seen as a a medical issue, you know, or pathology into the social context. Um, how do you challenge, [00:01:30] um, the norms of society in a way that is constructive and and makes positive the change. Um, and And also, how do we as a community, um, change our attitudes and behaviours towards each other to model that in in the community? I think [00:02:00] in the disability and mental health, um, discussion. I think one of the big things was I. I guess we talked a lot about, um, how disability and mental health shows up the importance of relationship [00:02:30] and the conversation that we need to be continually having about how we connect with each other in in different ways. And how do we, you know, not only talk about the rights of of people to make sure that we're upholding the rights of [00:03:00] our own employees, for example. So you know, people talked about being in rights based organisation where something happened and and it's a bit unusual and everything goes pear shaped because, oh my God, we don't know what to do. So we'll just make that a problem and try and get rid of it. You made a very [00:03:30] interesting point in your first session about how, within the space of five minutes, you can be able or disabled, depending on the environment that you're in. Yeah, I mean, I think for the whole of society, and it's not just about this community, we have to remember that, you know, we we're all vulnerable and and life is uncertain, and there's a discomfort in that. And so I guess [00:04:00] a lot of my work at the moment and and the sort of conversation I've been bringing up at the conference is how do we sit with the fact that we we are all vulnerable, like there. There's not a group of vulnerable people that we have to look after and everybody else is not vulnerable. Human beings are vulnerable and and [00:04:30] and when we when we deny our vulnerabilities, we get into disconnection. And so in order for us to be more connected, we need to feel comfortable with that vulnerability. And And, you know, people talking in this space are are talking about understanding the [00:05:00] the beauty of vulnerable vulnerability. You know what? What? What makes us vulnerable makes us beautiful. And and so when we can say that we can then connect as beautiful people connecting rather than fearful people connecting How do you take those ideas and [00:05:30] take them outside of the conference and then put them into action? I have no dear Gareth, I mean, I, I think I think one of the my learnings in the last few years is that we we often focused on attitudinal change in this area that it's all about, you know, if we if we get the attitude right, then suddenly [00:06:00] everything will magically change. And the reading I've been doing around social change and and influence as a tool of social change is that we actually need to find out what the behaviours are that cause change. Um, because you know, you can have the best attitude in the world and not doing anything, [00:06:30] and nothing will change because we live in a material world where action is really important. I mean, you know, thinking about what you do is really important as well. But But then that you're following through and and working out, what are the behaviours that that that make a difference? So I think beyond [00:07:00] the the conference, one thing that I think is a vital behaviour and that I'm committed to following up on is having making a space in the community for people that want to have these difficult exploratory conversations. [00:07:30] Not because we want to have come to a certain outcome, but just because it's good to keep talking and get into places where we don't know the answer and disagree and agree to disagree and feel vulnerable and uncertain and and uncomfortable [00:08:00] at times. Um but also experience the magic of being in that place because that's where you know we can go. Oh, like I've never thought that way about something. Let's go away and try and do it this way instead of that way that we've been doing it for the last 10 years [00:08:30] and wondering why it didn't work. Has anything challenged you at this conference? Something challenge me? Um, getting into the the Islet Theatre where the disability panel was was quite a challenge. Um, it it was ironic. The probably the most inacceptable venue in the in the place. Um, [00:09:00] I mean, to be honest, I hadn't been here much, so So I'm trying to think About what? Look, what What challenged me last night, um, was that I went to, um, a woman event that a friend of mine was in seeing and said, Come along, we'll get you and be home. And my boyfriend and I arrived and we were just told we couldn't [00:09:30] come in, and, um, we we sort of played with that and said, Well, how do you know we're not transitioning? You know, like, how do you know that we we're not. We used to be women. And so we had a bit of a, you know, a discussion about, you know, if that was the case, how would it be verified? Who would we believe? And and stuff like that? [00:10:00] And I think the challenging thing is is again that that we I deeply respected the the need for some women to have a space where somebody who represents an unsafe element of society is not gonna turn up and and and ruin [00:10:30] that experience. And and so I deeply respect that. And it felt really sad to not be able to go in and, um, and hang out with with my friends. You know, most of my friends are friends. Um, so So there there's that uncomfortable place of transitioning, [00:11:00] you know, I mean that it's a nice metaphor because it seems that one of the great things about this conference has been on the the the focus of transgender. And and that seems to be, you know, really refresh, refreshing, fluid new energy in our community. [00:11:30] But but also, with that, the whole community is transitioning into a new understanding of of gender and and the role of gender in society, the role of gender in our community So So So That was challenging. And And what was nice was that we [00:12:00] stayed. We sat outside and a group of parents and kind of fringy academics. And, you know, myself having unique function formed a group, you know, we felt like the fringe of the fringe. And it was, um, one of the best nights [00:12:30] I've had for ages. So So we could have got pissed off and walked up in the house. We stayed with the discomfort and had a great experience. As a result, What do you think you'll take out of this conference? I feel a sense of, [00:13:00] of change, of growing up, maybe of of maturation of the community, where perhaps in the past we've been a bit looking at mainstream society to give us our right to accept us, to allow us to marry, to [00:13:30] employ us, you know, a bit of a a passive perhaps victim like, um, you know, space and And the other side of that is is, you know, while we wait for that and feel hard done by, we have lots of parties and and and are quite [00:14:00] sort of childish. And in some ways, well, maybe like childish, but But certainly, I think, um, I've noticed in adolescence about the community for a long time, and I think maybe now that, um, we have all those things in in more more quantity, um, and quality. It's not perfect, [00:14:30] by all means. But then maybe it is because affection is, um, a balance of positivity negativity. We we can't have one without the other. So maybe I take away from the conference, as is a slightly more inward focus of of here we are. We're we're actually we've [00:15:00] actually done a lot of work on the world outside us. And maybe now we need to do some work on our community internally and maybe some different work, which is far more playful and exploratory and and defining new words and new ways [00:15:30] to be with each other and and playing with gender and playing with, you know, fluidity and and not having to be one thing or the other anymore, because it's, you know, because we we have to, you know, have enough numbers to be noticed that that now we can begin to evolve and develop ourselves into [00:16:00] a new version of whatever this actually is skipping ahead 30 years. If somebody was listening to this 30 years from now, what would you like to say to them? Well, I hope you're listening to this going what the fuck? Like what? What's he talking about? Oh, yeah. I remember [00:16:30] a time when you know, they they were like acronyms with 10 letters. You know, G, LBTT FIQ. You know, um and and maybe you're thinking isn't it great that we we don't need to label ourselves anymore? Because we [00:17:00] we recognise each other with without the labels and and maybe we we are, you know, quite ok about being unique in some situations. And you know, the the magic of that and being done by common and dull and monotonous and other context. [00:17:30] You know, because because life is, you know, life is both magical and monotonous all at the same time. So So maybe that's what your not thing is. Is that that life is Is this strange paradox which doesn't need to be labelled.

IRN: 370
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_peter_sagar.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004180
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089474
TITLE: Peter Sagar
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Peter Sagar
INTERVIEWER: Jim Whitman
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Peter Sagar; Wellington Town Hall; human rights
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Peter Sagar from New Zealand talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Peter, would you say who you are? Yes, I'm the president of Glier Asia Pacific, which is which is the Asia Pacific network of sport, culture and human rights organisations. So we oversee the selections of host cities and and stand for having events like the Asia Pacific Out games where we have sport, culture and human rights all coming together. That was the three pillars. That's right. They're the three components, three pillars of an Out games. [00:00:30] And I think it's great where we can have a focus on human rights. Whilst people are also playing sport and celebrating culture, it's about reflecting. You know us as human beings, our mind, our body and our spirit and advocating, celebrating and creating change. Yes, what happens on the sports field is also something that can happen in human rights. I suppose as well. I think it's, you know, it's interesting seeing, like on a sports field. There's that you know, that equal, [00:01:00] equal treatment that, um, that fair play, Um and we should be able to take that into the, you know, the human rights environment, where gay and lesbian people, um, are treated fairly, are treated equally and have um, the dignity to live, live, live their life, fully active. Participation? Yeah, that that that's interesting. How you you You're a visitor to Wellington. Is this the first time you've come? [00:01:30] Uh, no. I've been to Wellington a couple of times, uh, as part of our, um, you know, as part of working with Wellington 2011 in the preparation for the games. So it's abs absolutely fantastic seeing seeing what was an idea in people's mind and seeing it come to fruition. Uh, so that's just it's just awesome. But I think one of the for me an interesting thing for our region is how do we take what happened at the Human Rights conference at the first Asia Pacific Out Games that were held [00:02:00] in Melbourne in 2008? How do we take what happened in Melbourne? What's happening in Wellington and keep that alive measure or look at the progress and so we can take that forward into the third Asia Pacific Out games, whoever wherever that may be. Um, I think that that's an important challenge for us to keep that human rights debate live, uh, for us all to engage in it and and look at the progress. Yeah, yeah, that's [00:02:30] And how, in the meantime, do you think you might do that? I think there's an opportunity for human rights individuals and organisations, uh, being part of the glia Pacific Network, being part of our conversation and working with people to to post things on the a P website or point people to get that information. So we look forward to people sticking up their hands saying Yes II, I [00:03:00] I'm happy to help out. I'm happy to contribute to glia a P being part of that that network, that sharing of information How long is it to the next Asia Pacific? Out At the moment, we're we're interested in cities and communities saying we would like to hold it. We're looking at holding it in 2014. So the idea that every three years we would have an Asia Pacific Out games or some forums for us to get together forums? That idea. Yeah. I mean, [00:03:30] I think if there are parts of our community that say, Let's get together more frequently on on a particular topic, say on human rights, then you know we'd like to be part of that that conversation. So if that means we should have an annual Asia Pacific human rights conference, then we can do that. But as part of an Asia Pacific outcomes, we see that being every 3 to 4 years.

IRN: 318
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_closing.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004204
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089498
TITLE: AsiaPacific Outgames closing
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: David Hindley; Hamish Allardice; Karen Moses; Kevin Haunui; Peter Sagar; Virginia Parker-Bowles
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Antwerp; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asia Pacific Outgames; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Barry Taylor; Canada; Civic Square / Te Ngākau; Darryl Parrant; David Fairey; David Hindley; David Huxford; Debbie Gee; GLISA Asia Pacific; Glamourhead Sharks (Melbourne, Australia); HIV / AIDS; Hamish Allardice; James Barwell; Karen Moses; Kevin Haunui; Kong Guan Ho; Mark Fairey; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; North American Outgames; Peter Gordon; Peter Sagar; Peter Soukolopoulos; Sara Fraser; Sue Dunlop; Vancouver; Virginia Parker-Bowles; Wellington; Wellington Town Hall; Zealandia; bisexual; flags; gay; human rights; internet; intersex; lesbian; love; poroporoaki; powhiri; social media; sport; swimming; t-shirts; tennis; transgender; volunteer; women; zoo
DATE: 19 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Civic Square / Te Ngākau, Civic Square/Te Ngākau, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the closing of the 2nd AsiaPacific Outgames, held in Civic Square, Wellington on 19 March 2011.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Is remembering. Of course. Um, there's a lot of volunteers putting something together like this. And, um, we just wanted to acknowledge, um, our volunteers. So if the volunteers could start coming from this side and come up around me and just stand over here and be fantastic, Yes. [00:00:30] Yeah. Oh, [00:01:00] and, of course, our wonderful Sarah Fraser. [00:01:30] Not only did Sarah Fraser, um, work with us as a committee, um, try to take minutes of our very interesting conversations and, um, try to make sense of action points and everything tirelessly for for some months and months and months and months and months, as we all have. She also was, um, willing to take on the role of volunteer coordinator. So thanks very much to Sarah. [00:02:00] We We have another volunteer special volunteer to to mention I actually gave Sarah one of these yesterday. I took it back because I needed it for something else. So So none of you would have seen what I'm giving Sarah. It's, um it's [00:02:30] a well, it's not really made of Panama. It's a green, uh, metal. But it's, uh, in the colours of our fabulous native stone. So, like I'm wearing here another person that you may have come into contact with when you registered was, um Lance. So, Lance, um, thank you very much for all your contributions and managing the hub. [00:03:00] Um, And then, of course, um um, there's lots more features. Um, I'm just gonna That's it. I'm just gonna pass over to It's fabulous to wear God here. Mm. [00:03:30] Thank you. Um, I was doing so well getting through. So, um, we've got, um, David Henley and Vidia Burns. Hopkins, our co-chair. So, um, Hopkins Burns, um, our co-chair are just gonna have a few words. Thank you. Hi. [00:04:00] Hamish has the grand title of convenor of operations and logistics. Can you imagine what? Being in charge of all the operations and logistics for an organisation like that? This is just incredible. He did an absolutely amazing job, Hamish. Aldi Just brilliant. You know, it's absolutely awesome standing up here and looking down and just seeing so many medals, [00:04:30] uh, around the place. Um, I know Virginia and I were lucky to have the opportunity to to talk to people and to find out some of the stories that people have brought here. I want to pay particular tribute to the people in other countries who have worked so hard to raise the profile of the out games outside of New Zealand to fundraise, to get us on radio, get us in the media and onto websites and so on, get their clubs energised. Thank you so much [00:05:00] for your support. It's been massively important to us. So thank you for all those offshore people who helped. Now this may be the closing ceremony, but of course the art games isn't over yet. We have one sensational party to go tonight at a studio in street. I've just been down there about an hour ago where they're putting in the lasers and everything. It's going to be absolutely sensational. There are door sales. It opens from 10 o'clock [00:05:30] tonight. So it's a studio. It's about 10 minutes walk from here. Going to be just an absolute blast of an evening. Uh, just a couple of quick messages. You may have seen David Ferry, who was standing just down there. There he is, over there in the red T-shirt. David is our and And listen, as David is our, um, photographer for the games, he has taken some amazing photographs. They're all loaded to our website or to his website. So you can go online. Look at the photograph. So you can, uh, buy prints. [00:06:00] Or you can just download them for Facebook or whatever, but go online and have a look at that. That's fantastic. I would also just like to point out there are still a few, uh, and caps, I think for sale just across here. Fantastic merchandise. Really, really beautiful. T-shirts. I can see a lot of them out here, so grab the opportunity while you can. One of the big questions is where will the third Asia Pacific Air Games be held? And I've heard some some really inspirational suggestions over the last few days. [00:06:30] Um, if you want to talk about it in a formal capacity, the team down here in the white T shirts, the gsa a P are the people to talk to if you want to quite, uh, undercover. Um, no Obligation, uh, chat with somebody who's actually done it. Then come up and talk to any of the people here, and we'd be more more than happy to give you, um, a little, uh, unofficial discussion about, uh, about what's involved and how much fun you can have doing it. I would absolutely encourage you. If you think that your city is a great place [00:07:00] to do it, then please go out and make a real effort. Give it a go. It's fantastic. I know. I'll hand over to Virginia. Thanks, David. If because you've become family now, have you all had a good time? Oh, the atmosphere has been electric As I've walked around my city. This is my neighbourhood. I live in the central business district [00:07:30] and I've spotted so many people with their out games logos on and their t-shirts, their medals clinking. Some of you have collected up huge amounts of medals as well. Um, thank you all for taking a chance on us. For all of your cheerfulness and your cheekiness and your camaraderie, you've made this event so special. It's been an absolute privilege to work on this event with our wonderful team. Without their vision and their hard [00:08:00] work, we wouldn't have been able to bring you the second Asia Pacific Out games. Please put your hands together once again for David Hamish, Kevin David, Karen Peter Barry Darryl KG, David Peter and Mark. [00:08:30] It's It's been a very long time getting to this this point, and it's just brilliant to see all of their efforts come to fruition like this. I'd also like to thank our fabulous volunteer coordinator, Sarah and, of course, the manager of our out games hub, Lance. They've both been a joy to work with and made me feel like everything was under control. And it's a very, very welcome feeling. Thank you both. [00:09:00] Of course, an event with 16 sports, a major human rights conference, an enormous arts and culture festival and a heap of parties couldn't be done without our legion of volunteers. To those that have given up relaxed evenings and weekends, time with family and friends and even paid work. Our sincere thanks goes [00:09:30] to you. You have each contributed to the success of the art games, and it is very much appreciated. I would also like to thank the partners, families and friends of everyone involved in the art games. You've allowed them to participate, and I'm sure other rich are for it. I'd especially like [00:10:00] to thank my beautiful partner Alison, because she's seen me disappearing for hours at a time and I miss you is and finally, our wonderful sponsors. And there are a heap of sponsors that came on board with the art games. Um, we love you for sharing our enthusiasm and for collaborating on the event as well. You brought lots to the table. Thank you so [00:10:30] much. Um, our communities are very loyal as we've been telling you all along, and I'm sure that you'll see that for years to come. So thank you all for your role in the second Asia Pacific Art Games. I hope you've achieved your goals, created special memories and made lifelong friends. And I look forward to seeing you all again at the third Asia Pacific [00:11:00] Art Games. Thank you. Yeah. Please. Yeah. Mhm. No way [00:11:30] it in? Yeah. And [00:12:00] killer. It's, um it's terrible to pull people out for thank you. Because you always miss people. But I did really just want to acknowledge, um, [00:12:30] not only our co chairs for sport, David Huxford and and Karen Moses and I also wanted to thank all of the fabulous coordinators that we had who were, um, who've worked with us, partnered with us to, um, put on each of the different sports, so I can't remember all of their names even though I've met you all. So I'd just like to jointly [00:13:00] put on a round of applause for all the coordinators. I think it'd be great if you all took something home from these games other than your memories. So I've put out the banners there. I hate I love recycling. So, um, the ones who are holding them, they're yours to take. If you don't want them, give them to someone else. These ones here, please. Um, help yourself as well. If your country's missing, [00:13:30] it's probably over at te Papa. I just remembered that I forgot to pick up the ones that were left there. So, um, that's where it is. Another thing, of course. Down the bottom is you can see the big blocks in the front, down the bottom, that for Antwerp. So remember that the story goes on. It doesn't It doesn't all end here. So, please, um, take some of the brochures away. I've got more up here in the box holding the flag down, so, um, please take them. Take them. Take them. Um, there's also copies of the official guide. I'll pop those in recycling [00:14:00] if they don't go as well. So if you feel inspired and you're gonna do it in your town, maybe it's good to take one of those home so that you can inspire your communities whether it be in Oh, I wonder where it's gonna be. We're not mentioning that. So, um, another person which I wanted to to acknowledge is, um, our fabulous Barry Taylor to any of you, any of you. So you had the privilege of being in the room with the conference participants. You just [00:14:30] know how invaluable his contribution has been. And, of course, Barry Taylor's not only about Barry, it's about all of the people that surrounded him and him along as well. So, um, I'm just I just want to point the people out. So we've got Darryl Perent here as well, and we've got David Allen on the back here in the white shirt. Hopefully in the black is, um, our financial controller, Mark Berry [00:15:00] and, um, one of the people that, um that when he came on board, I thought, Oh my God, this man was just scary. He's one of the kind of people who you do not say no to. And, um, many of the poor arts and culture community in Wellington have found that out to their to their detriment, as who worked with a few others [00:15:30] because no one could stand working with him. He was such a bloody bulldoze. But anyway, and, um, we must also remember the fabulous Sue Dunlop who passed away last year sadly from cancer. And her contribution was also in the programme. Um, so there's, um, one other person that you've all seen his work and the team that he has looked after, and that's our our website. Love it or hate the websites. You know, it wasn't exactly, [00:16:00] um, dude's nude or whatever it is that you're into. But it was, uh, the Wellington Out Games official website. And that's Peter. It is. Some of you may have experienced Auntie Beryl. Where is Auntie Beryl? We've lost him here. Auntie Beryl is, um is the name that one of the registration team? One of the team Peter Peter Gordon. [00:16:30] You would have all received an email from Peter Gordon at the same stage. Peter Gordon. Where the hell are you? Hm? He's probably on the website doing another email to you all. But Peter Gordon worked tirelessly with the registration system. So, um, thanks very much to Peter Gordon. I think, um, at one stage, Shelly told me, Well, I've done over 900 emails now imagine what Sally's, um yeah, her contribution as well. It's [00:17:00] all been invaluable. And there's one other person who's standing who's been my right hand man through all of this experience of the out games. And that's Kevin. There's two quiet, unassuming rocks that kind of have been a part of this organisation. One is Kevin and the other one is Mark, and I just really it's been a privilege, and I love the role modelling. Um, I came into this organisation and wanted to do this because [00:17:30] I wanted to learn. And I wanted to be a part of something that, um, raised the profile of our community and gave us something to fight for. Other than, um, AIDS and human rights. So, um, you know, I, I really feel privileged to be working as a part of this organisation. But those men, I've I've I feel like I've developed mentors for life. So thank you for them now, It's not all about us. Of course, there's other people here from the glia family. So [00:18:00] I just wanted to, um welcome out the glia glia for you. Both of you do not know Wellington 2011, this bunch and extended to that bunch and all of you. Now, um, put in a bid to host the second Asia Pacific Out games. We put in a bid document to GS, the Gay and Lesbian International Sports Association, of which, uh, Peter is the president currently serving. So, um, did he do? Did he have a glia of people want to come up in case people want to come out and talk [00:18:30] to you about the host city operations? Uh, opportunities. Come on. Come on, Lorraine. Because none of us do this stuff alone. None of us. I mean, it was lovely here in Virginia. Thank Alison, but my main rock is Simon Virtue. In the back there, he's been looking after me through putting me back out into the world. You know, it's exhausted from the experience. So, um, now we're just gonna have the flag coming [00:19:00] down ceremony. Ethel, can you take the flag down? Just be careful of the gaffer tape. I just got the pole at Bellings on the way. As you can see, organised for the last minute operations. So, um, we're lowering the flag. This is the international flag. It was created in Montreal. Glia Asia Pacific has got a a green thing. He wants it. And this one's got an [00:19:30] orange one because it's the international flag and you can see at showing you. Now we've got Copenhagen, where the games have been held. Calgary, the red ribbon. We've got the green ribbon, which is Melbourne, and we've got Montreal. And now David Henley is going to attach the ribbon for Wellington. [00:20:00] And if you want to take it off the polls, I take undo the gas and then you give it to David. I should be taking So, um, Wellington's now taking it off the pole with a bit a lot of help from Brisbane. Thanks. So and, um, Wellington is now gonna give it ceremony. [00:20:30] I mean, ceremonially back to Lisa. Asia Pacific. Sure. And we're gonna be now giving the flag in all its entirety and all its responsibility. That's the least of the visit. Now we'll have a speech from Peter. [00:21:00] Oh, we're gonna give it now. Right now, we're gonna have the flag giving. You wanna announce? Uh, so Michael's here from Team Vancouver. Vancouver is host of the second North American Out games that will be held later this year. I'd like to just say many, many thanks to the people of Wellington. [00:21:30] We have those of us who have come a long way, have really You've opened your hearts. You've opened your city. You've shown you've raised the bar so high. And I encourage those of you here in Asia Pacific to make a long journey to Vancouver to our North American Out games. You may have seen this little book. Mark WWW, Vancouver 2011 out games dot com Check it out. [00:22:00] We'd love to see you there, and we are challenged to meet the level of quality and pride that you guys have put out. We love you. Thank you very much. So now take a tiger from G, then I have a few words. I have a few words. I have a few words. Uh, korra, uh, friends. Thank you for being part of these eight days of amazing sport, culture and human rights uh, my name is Peter Saga, [00:22:30] and I'm Karen Moses from Lisa. Asia Pacific. So, on behalf of you, uh, we congratulate Virginia and David and the entire team standing behind us, Uh, for making Wellington 2011 possible. You know, we all acknowledge it's been a huge undertaking and you've delivered us a unique, special, amazing and just fantastic games. Thank you so much. Yeah. We also [00:23:00] thank uh, Nick from Age Pacific for his support and work. But we also have to acknowledge that our presence being here today gathering in Wellington, as we have over these last eight days, has only been possible because of the courageous people in our past, courageous people who have stood up for their rights. So we can we can be here today [00:23:30] and we also acknowledge the previous gay Games and our previous out game City Montreal, Calgary, Melbourne, Copenhagen and now Wellington. So, obviously, after Wellington, we have the North American Out games in Vancouver, the third World out games in Antwerp in 2013 and then we'll look forward to the third Asia packs. Asia Pacific is made up [00:24:00] of volunteers and organisations that come together to create and support events just like this. The vision is to encourage participation to strengthen individual communities and create an active rainbow community in the Asia Pacific region. How can we all participate to activate nurture, keeping this wonderful momentum alive for me as a lesbian? It is to create an Asia Pacific [00:24:30] lesbian network to continue the wonderful conversations on from the conference to increase women's partici participation in the out brains and the wonderful legacy of a woman's space. As part of the Rainbow Community, we all have our goals for the future. So we invite you to be part of this wonderful network going forward and edging your voice. So [00:25:00] so police Asia Pacific asks you to take away your memories, Take away the new friendships with you and let us meet again soon at the third Asia Pacific Out games. Thank you, Wellington Kia Kaha. Yeah. Now there was a in the pool. You can imagine how fiercely competitive it was. [00:25:30] And I'm not just talking about the showers. The, um there's a team on Melbourne Melbourne glamour heads. Aren't they a legend? The, um they, um they won the swimming, so we just like to present them with, uh, the banner of some of our beautiful um, I be able swim. So from with someone like to come up from the, um, Melbourne overheads to, uh, receive the banner. Is there anyone here from Melbourne? [00:26:00] Yeah, at some of our boys. Do you please trade it with the stage? Thank you. Thank you. There's also, um there's some other teams which stood outstandingly. Well, um, one of them was the, um, volleyball team, which my intel has failed me. Which was the volleyball team that won [00:26:30] Brisbane. Would Brisbane like to come up and grab a banner to take home for their community? Remembering that we want to continue to to, um, build on what's been created here. If you don't want the banner, that's fine. Someone give it, take it and give it to someone else. Actually, there's a few banners. So why don't people just come up and take the banner that they want? Help yourself. This is recycling. Remember the, um the big [00:27:00] the big, tall things that are over there. They go to the third Asia Pacific Out games. So? So we give them because they just say Asia Pacific arcas, they don't say anything about Wellington? We were strategic there. Um, lastly, um, don't forget the t-shirt sales over there. It's great to have commercial support, and, um, just, um they're cheap. Now, if you've been waiting, I think this is low as the price is gonna go. Um, don't forget revolution tickets. Um, you [00:27:30] can buy them at the door. This one has been there, but it's all done. Brilliant. Now, can't remember now. It has got the, um Kevin. So now we're going to have, uh, my favourite part, which is, uh, yes, uh, the is our opportunity to close the [00:28:00] the out games to take back the, um, mantle that was handed to the, uh, Wellington 2011 committee and to you the invitation while you were here, uh, in Wellington. And that started at the at Papa last Saturday. So we welcomed you, and you've enjoyed yourself, and I hope, uh, and now we would like to to say goodbye. In doing so, [00:28:30] I'd like to, uh, explain that we'd like to have a a couple of moments Silence for reflection about what we have done this week. What we have all done this week from the time that we paraded down the walls to te papa on to the marae at te Papa, where we were welcomed where it was said that the most important thing that we should [00:29:00] remember and retain is love. Love for the person love for other people. We also remember the sports events. I won tennis, and I remember that a lot. Actually, there are others in there, but I'll I'll just say that it won't happen. There were swimming. Yeah, houses. Yeah. There were also, um, the tours to the zoo, [00:29:30] the tours to the the, um, tours to Zia. The many arts and crafts events around the city and the, um, surrounding cities. There were also the entertainment evenings from, and the parties began last night, and we've still got that to go. But let's remember those things. Let's also remember those people who [00:30:00] aren't able to be here and who are unable to be here because they have no choices about some of those things. So we'll have a moment's silence. We're going to have a, uh a after this, uh, and then we'll close off with a I, uh a prayer of thanks for everything that we have shared together. Yeah, right. [00:30:30] OK, so, [00:31:00] mhm you do. [00:31:30] And, boy, I [00:32:00] me hey to Oh, thank you. [00:32:30] Yeah.

IRN: 328
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_film_evening.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004201
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089495
TITLE: Human Rights film evening
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Grace Poore; Jack Byrne; Kirsty MacDonald; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Prue Hyman; Rebecca Swan
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Assume Nothing (film); Courage Unfolds (film); Grace Poore; Jack Byrne; Kirsty MacDonald; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Prue Hyman; Rebecca Swan; Wellington Town Hall; Yogyakarta Principles (2006); human rights; intersex; media; movies; transgender; video online
DATE: 17 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: On 17 March 2011 a human rights film evening was held in the Ilott Theatre. There were screenings and discussions on two films: Courage Unfolds - Living the Principles and Assume Nothing.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Welcome to the movie night or film evening at the Human Rights Conference. And it's good to see so many of you here. Um, it's always difficult with all these clashes and the dinner and everything else. So it's splendid, but quite a few of you decided you needed to see these films, and you are absolutely right. Um, the way the evening is working which some of you may not know, depending on on how you've, [00:00:30] um whether how much you've read the programme. Uh, it has changed slightly from what it was going to be originally, but I think most of you have got the right thing. We've got We're involved with two movies. Um, we're only seeing one in entirety and we're going to be tantalised on the other by and we're going to be able to see it on the Web in about two months time, which is wonderful. So, um, from half past 7 to 8, we're with grace poor who I'm going to welcome to the podium in a moment. And, uh, she is one of the major, [00:01:00] um, contributors, instigators, organisers, and everything else with courage unfolds, which is our first half hour and, um, we're going to hear from grace, show a four minute trailer and then have a Q and a for and that will take us till around eight o'clock or a minute or so after, since we're a minute or two late, depending on how many questions you've got. And then we move on to, um, assume [00:01:30] nothing where Kirsty McDonald and Rebecca Swan we are lucky enough to have both of them here, and we also have two others who have been intimately involved with the project. Marie Mitchell and Jack Byrne are also here, and, um, can be part of the Q and a, um, later on and they're going. Rebecca and Kirsty are going to introduce that film, which is about 54 56 minutes. We'll we'll show that film, and then we'll have a Q and A on that and that will take us to somewhere [00:02:00] in the region of 9 30. But it's not a strict finishing time, so that's the That's the shape of the evening. And, uh, I'll say more about assume nothing later, but we'll start with courage. Unfolds, which is, um, a film, a very brave film seeking to educate communities, mainly in Asia, about how and why the yoga Carta principles need to be used to promote human rights and protect people from violence and discrimination on the basis of their sexual orientation, gender identity [00:02:30] or gender expression. I'll leave Grace to talk far more about it, but I will say a little bit about Grace, who is, of course, a splendid woman. And, uh, she's a Malaysian activist who's been working to end domestic violence and child sexual abuse for over 20 years, has been a principal researcher on a study conducted by the San Francisco based National Asia and Pacific Islands Domestic Violence Institute, um on domestic violence related [00:03:00] homicides in API communities in the States. She's written and directed and produced documentaries that have been screened in 18 countries. As a filmmaker, she's focused on producing work on issues of gender violence and grassroots politics. She's had awards for her anti violence work and for her documentaries. She's a graduate of Syracuse University's School of Communications, and she's heavily involved in this movie. Let's hear from and welcome grace. [00:03:30] Podiums always make me uncomfortable, for, um, I want to give a little bit of introduction uh, to this film. I also want to apologise for the fact that we're not showing the full rough cut that I had planned to show. Uh, the full video will be 30 minutes long. Um, but unfortunately, [00:04:00] there was some group footage in the video for which we are still waiting for permission from people, and so we don't feel that without their permission, it's safe to show, um, the rough cut. So that's why we are showing the trailer. Um, December 10th is the day that, um, human rights is celebrated. It's the day that, um, human rights community observes, um, International [00:04:30] Human Rights Day. And in 2008, it was the anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Um, now, December 10th is also the last day of 16 days of activism, and I assume that most of you know and are familiar with 16 days of activism. It's a campaign. It's celebrated. It's observed, um, every year around the world. It started in 1991 was initiated [00:05:00] by the Centre for Women's Global Leadership, and the focus of that the 16 days of activism is to challenge and end violence against women. So given the confluence of these two things in 2008, that December 10th was the day that the 60th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was going to be celebrated and that it was the last day of 16 days of activism for that year. [00:05:30] Uh, my colleague and I Cristobal uh, both of whom we work for the Asia Programme of the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission. We thought it would be a very good idea to find a way to create a visual statement, a visual reminder to women's groups in the API region that when they do their 16 days of activism activities, they must include lesbians, bisexuals and transgender [00:06:00] people. Because very often, L BT people are invisible in 16 days of activism in many countries. We also wanted to send a visual statement to the human rights community that when they were celebrating the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, they needed to include and definitely recognise sexual orientation and gender identity as integral to selfhood and that that needed to be included. So, um, [00:06:30] we called a Skype meeting. Thank goodness for Skype. What would we do without it? So we we We convened a Skype meeting with countries with about maybe 13 countries in Asia, and we brainstormed and what would be a good way to create a visual statement? And the idea that came was that we would create a travelling banner that a banner made up of panels of fabric from all over Asia and that each, uh, panel of fabric [00:07:00] would capture a message from an LGL BT group in a country in Asia And a message, um, that was meaningful to them. And that Eagle would then commission a seamstress to assemble all of these panels of fabric into a banner and that the banner would travel through different Asian countries. Um, now, there were some challenges with having the banner travel to different countries [00:07:30] because some countries couldn't host the banner there. They couldn't get police permits. Um, there was a risk that the media might get hold of the information and publicise it, which would create problems. Um, so and there were financial restrictions about getting the banner. So given those considerations, three countries came forward Thailand, Indonesia and the Philippines. So the banner began its travel on, um, in, [00:08:00] uh, in November, in Bangkok, Thailand, for sexual diversity day. I believe it was November 29th and then from there it travelled to Manila for in December for pride Manila Pride and then from Manila. It travelled to Yogyakarta, Indonesia, where which was the last day, December 10th. And it was very appropriate that the banner ended its journey in Yogyakarta because that's where the Yogyakarta principles were developed [00:08:30] and it was launched there with local events in Yogyakarta. So you'll see some of this footage that that a video team followed the banner and interviewed activists in the different countries where the banner travelled. You will see some of that footage in the trailer. Um, this trailer will be released in a couple of weeks on YouTube. It's going to be the beginning of a prelaunch for a campaign that we are calling [00:09:00] the courage unfolds campaign. So far I think 14 countries excluding New Zealand and Australia. So I'm hoping that you all will join the campaign. 14 countries in Asia have are going to join Eagle in this campaign, and what the campaign involves is how to build activities around launching of this video in their countries with a campaign that is either going to push for anti [00:09:30] discrimination legislation that's going to somehow find a way to to get to, to make the job Jakarta principles. Um, activist friendly, uh, unpack it for the public, uh, make it relevant to local struggles for LGBT rights, and I can talk more about the campaign later. But, um, I think that's the only, um, intro. You know, I think that would be sufficient. We just We'll just watch the [00:10:00] trailer now. We're now going to move straight into Q and a We've got a couple of, um, roving mics. Gavin's got one of them as Carol got the other, we're all done. So just [00:10:30] Grace, that's just, um, you know, really enticing. And we we all want to see the rest of it. Um, you put out that, you know, challenge at the beginning, like it would be wonderful to have people from and from Australia to be part of the activism around the launch. So if we want to be, what's the the best way for us to get involved is there, you know, and I know that you're very busy. So So it doesn't put all the burden on you. Is there a website we can look at or what? [00:11:00] Yes, we will have, uh one way is to to put your name on a sign up sheet, so maybe we could have a sign up sheet tonight. Um, and I collected some names yesterday from the workshop. Um, we will send you information. Uh, the other way is that within the next two weeks, once the trailer goes on youtube, um, there will also be a widget. I think people know what that means. Uh, yes. No. Ok, well, anyway, it's a tool. It's an online tool, [00:11:30] basically, which will tell you certain things that you can do. And, um and one of the things is that you sign up and you say, You know that you want to hold a screening, we will connect you with other people who are going to do a screening. We'll send you a screening guide on how to organise a screening. We'll send you like a tips and techniques sheet on what kinds of things you know you need to pay attention to so that you can have a successful screening. Um, with lots of ideas on on how [00:12:00] to build a campaign. We're trying to sort of play with the idea of 29 because there are 29 principles. So maybe you can get creative, like in the Philippines. Um, they're going to give away 29 awards to to LGBT allies who have done a wonderful work on behalf of LGBT people. Um, I think in China they are going to do a series of activities of 29 ways to be friendly to trans [00:12:30] people. Uh, so, you know, so different people are doing different things. Uh, and I think that the idea is to make it interesting for people, uh, to make it also something that the media will be interested in. Of course, you can also do heavy duty work, like using it to push for legislation, but yeah. Yeah. Grace, are you able to give us a bit more of an indication about, um, exactly [00:13:00] what the full video will show? Yeah, we The video will basically be divided into Oh, Well, actually, um, how is the best way to put it? We are trying to make the Jakarta. We are trying to act. Let's put it this way. We're trying to activate the Yoak Carta principles, taking it away from being this dry document into something that's going to [00:13:30] be interesting for people. And we thought that we would do it through the lens of activism in Asia. So we have a lot of compelling stories, uh, that LGBT activists share about the struggles they're going through. We have some moving stories of abuses that people have gone through. But we also show the fights because we don't want to just, uh, reinforce the idea that API people just suffer and [00:14:00] that, you know, we are struggling under overwhelming, uh, conditions that there's a very vibrant activism and fight against homophobia and transphobia in the region. So those two things will be shown, and then we are going to, uh, weave the different rights as they relate to the different things that people are going through so that when you're watching the film, you will sort of when you see, for instance, [00:14:30] uh, one you saw a little bit of the reenactment. Uh, the Thai lesbian, who was, uh, who was who experienced corrective rape? Uh, I don't know if you're familiar with the term, but, uh, corrective rape is rape to um uh, change a person. Um, you know, you believe that, um, a lesbian or a woman or a person who is perceived to be, You know, gay, uh, needs to be cured of [00:15:00] their sexual orientation by being raped. So this, uh, Thai lesbian was raped, Gang raped, basically. And so as you're watching this, people may not may only think that the only thing only right that was violated was a bodily right. But there are several other things that took place. So you will constantly be reminded when people go through certain kinds of abuses, multiple rights are violated, or that when one right is taken [00:15:30] away, you're denied being able to enjoy another, right? So we try to unpack that as much as we can, and we end with this, hopefully very rousing call to action where different activists in different countries talk about how they're going to be using the Yogyakarta principles, what they're doing in their countries already. And then what? We hope this will lead to this courage unfolds campaign that [00:16:00] we hope will be built around the video. Yeah, So let's hope, um, it's the original will be in English, and we are planning to make it available one month before it's released so that then the partnering countries can get it translated into languages. We don't have a grant to, uh, you know, do the translation in Asia, we [00:16:30] can't pick the languages because there are so many languages. Yeah, Got a question You talked about having to get clearance from the group shots, and I can understand that. How did you go about finding people to participate? Thank you for asking that question. Um, we were very, very intentional. From the very beginning, we knew that we wanted people to use the video. So from the beginning, we asked [00:17:00] people to be part of the process so that we weren't just making a film and saying Here, take the film and go do something with it. So from the very beginning, we asked people to frame questions. We asked people to videotape their own statements. Um, because the video team only went to the countries where the banner was travelling and in the countries where the banner wasn't travelling. We asked people to send their statements, video statements and stills, and we worked with [00:17:30] people for the last two years. So there was a constant process from the beginning asking people, Do you think a campaign would make sense? Uh, you know, uh, asking people how long the video should be. We wanted it to be a one hour video, and people say, Oh, no, don't make it more than 30 minutes. So it's gonna be 30 minutes. Um and we said, Look, we really want to release it December 10th because it makes sense. That's human Rights Day. And the activists said No. [00:18:00] You know, most of us have two jobs. We put all our energy into organising Idaho. We put all our energy into organising for pride. We just can't organise another big event. So if you're going to release it, release it like in May. So we made all those decisions along with what people on the ground were telling us, so that by the time the video is like out, there's already a sense of ownership and and we felt that was the best strategy. [00:18:30] A lot of my main Well, um, when you say and how the project originate in terms of how you manage speak with so many countries. OK, um, we Well, we sort of bifurcated, uh, the shooting and the production [00:19:00] that we refers to, uh, lesbian advocates Philippines, which is a local group in the Philippines, and the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission, the Asia Programme of Eagle and then the post production and all of this campaign building is Eagle, the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission. And because gin Cristobal and I work in Asia and I coordinate the Asia programme, you know it is our job to be constantly working with [00:19:30] people on the ground. So that's how we were able to connect with activists. And initially, when we began the project, uh, we thought it would only be a five minute video of the banner and we would just send out these free DVD S. And then people said, No, you know, we wanna be in it. We wanna be in it, you know, before you know it, you know, everybody wants to be in it. So it just grew and it was going to be just a showcasing [00:20:00] of LGBT struggles and activism in the region. Uh, and then Boris is in the audience, so maybe he can say something, but, you know, the the momentum about the joke, the interest in the Jakarta principles began to pick up. People began to say we need to publicise it. And so then we were told, maybe this video should be about the Yogyakarta principles since it was developed in Asia. So we freaked out [00:20:30] because, you know, we had this idea, and all of a sudden the intention of the film was going in another direction. So we had to do a lot more gathering of footage, which is why it's taken us quite a while. Uh, we honestly, we changed, like, three editors. So we're now with the third editor, Um, and we're working with multiple formats, you know, multiple formats, all kinds of material. Um, but it's a good, organic way to work with a film that's meant to be something [00:21:00] that activists are supposed to use. So I kind of like that organic process, and it's a pain in the ass, but, you know, it's it's it's good. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe you want to say something about the YP and you know, yeah, where to begin. There's so much to say about the Yogyakarta principles. Um, maybe it's good to highlight that. As Grey said, lots of people [00:21:30] when they read the Yogyakarta principles think it's quite boring, legalistic, very difficult to really understand what's behind the principles. So in a coordination group, we decided to also, um, work on an activist guide. And this is somewhat similar to what Grace is doing with her video with her documentary, Um, we asked groups from all over the world to share their, um, [00:22:00] ways of working with the Yogyakarta principles, concrete examples and to share that with us, and we combined it, and we compiled it into an activist guide to the Yogyakarta principles. For those of you who attended the conference, it was in the welcoming package. It's yeah, that's the Yogyakarta principles, but the activist guide is also in it. It's, uh, has a silver colour, and there there are about 29 examples. [00:22:30] I believe there is also one example from New Zealand in it, and it makes it actually very easy to understand what those principles really are about. Because in one country, people used the principle of the right to education and showed an example there in another country. It was something completely different again. So all of a sudden, when you see the wealth of possibilities, you understand how broad [00:23:00] and how encompassing the Yogyakarta principles are. Um, so that's the activist guide. And maybe it's also good to say that the Yogyakarta principles it's not a fixed document. It was compiled and codified at the end of 2006, But through international jurisprudence, new international recognised human rights are emerging. So it might very [00:23:30] well be that in a few years time we can add to the 29 principles principle number 30 31 and especially in the field of transgender rights, there is a lot of developments going on. So hopefully those will be included also in the Yogyakarta principles. Um, yeah, Maybe that's what I can say now. Great. Thanks. And on the website Excuse [00:24:00] me on the website along with the screening guide, uh, and the tip sheet, we will link to, um, the activist guide so that you can download it if you you know, if you want to, uh, electronic copy of it. Um, the hope is that we are going to have an interactive map so that when each country or city does a launch and activities. They will be able to input that information maybe [00:24:30] with, like a like a 32nd or a 62nd video that will go on to a map, meaning, like you can hover your cursor over a city or a country. And then it will take you to that country, and then you can see what people are doing. But I we'll see if we can pull that off, but yeah, thank you. Special. Thank you so much. Grace. That's been terrific. And [00:25:00] you can see from the interest. And I think there are a lot of signatures on that bit of paper, which you'll get by the end of the evening. So we should, um, have a lot of chance to see the the whole thing here afterwards. Uh, I don't know whether there's anyone else outside trying to come in. Do you need to check? Just We'll just have a look while I'm, um, introducing our exciting, uh, movie that we're about to see. Um, this is, of course, assume nothing. And we're lucky enough to have, um, four people [00:25:30] associated with it, but particularly the two major, uh, filmmakers and photographer of, um and we Uh, that, of course, is Rebecca Swan and Kirsty McDonald. Um, assume nothing focuses on the art photography and performances of New Zealander Rebecca Swan and four other alternative gender artists of Maori, Samoan, Japanese and Pakeha European descent, which includes, um, as I said earlier, Marie Mitchell and Jack Byrne, who are both here as well. [00:26:00] Directed by Kirsty McDonald It poses the questions. What if male and female are not the only options? How do other genders express themselves through art? And, uh, a lot of New Zealanders here and maybe some from overseas will already know a great deal and have seen, um, probably earlier versions and maybe even this version and want to see it again, which you reasonably would, um, some of you will have been to, hopefully to Rebecca Swan's exhibition here at Out at the Asia [00:26:30] Pacific Out Games of Sweat. Some of you may have been in the kissing booth yesterday. I don't know. I unfortunately had something else on. And, uh, Rebecca is, of course, a visual artist working with photography and mixed media and, uh, the the original photographic exhibition and book assume nothing are a journey into the intimacy nuances and complexities of gender identity. Kirst is an independent filmmaker and completed eight short films around, um, assume Nothing to start with [00:27:00] in the feature length documentary. And, of course, the the photos and films toured, UM, between 208 and 2 2010 5 major New Zealand art galleries and museums seen by over Now, the commas in the wrong place. Would it be 20,000 or 200,000 people to 200,000 people? That's absolutely fantastic. The Human Rights Commission worked in partnership with the artists and local Trans people to run workshops alongside the exhibition [00:27:30] and to profile the commission's 2008 transgender inquiry report. Even just recently, the number of places that this is being screened is just fantastic. Recently in Delhi at the Queer Fest there, Belgrade, Serbia, Hastings, England, Kingston, Canada. Um, I think Navarra Spain might have been black and white rather than, uh than this one. But you know, it's going everywhere and has won them a load of awards. So we're we're really privileged tonight. Um, [00:28:00] Kirsty and Rebecca are going to say a little bit before the screening and then again do a Q and a afterwards. Please welcome Kirsty and Rebecca. Um, I think we should We should sing. You can sing. I can't. Kirsty is a beautiful singer. Um, Thank you, Prue. You leave very little for us to have [00:28:30] to say. That was a very thorough introduction. Um, but just wanted to thank you, Prue and the team you have around you at the out games. It's a great opportunity to, um, be able to showcase the film, Um, to an, uh, a local again and an international audience. So, yeah. Thank you for choosing to come to this instead of the dinner. Um, hopefully you'll enjoy it. Um, so I want to say, Well, just [00:29:00] just a couple of things. First of all, yes. Thank you very much for coming to the screening. We've, uh I've been very many people who were at the panel earlier today. Oh, fabulous. Um, Well, in that case, mostly we'll be sticking around obviously afterwards for a Q and a Jack Byrne and Marie Mitchell are with us, and Kihara was going to be with us, but she's been snapped up by the dinner, Um, and won't be here, but we're we're really looking forward to you seeing this version of the film. [00:29:30] Um, just by way of explanation. The full length version is just over 80 minutes long, but this is a version that was made for broadcast. It's been broadcast in Israel, Finland and Russia, and this is the version of the film that they get to see. So it's a delightful sort of romp through assume nothing land. I hope you enjoy it, and we look forward to talking with you afterwards. You wanna go to today? [00:30:00] Well, I'll just I'll just briefly say a little thing for those of you who weren't at the, um, panel discussion that we did this morning. The context of the film very briefly is that I saw Rebecca Swan's book assume nothing in A in a shop window in Auckland and was sort of drawn inside the shop and then so blown away by these incredible images that I went to certain lengths to to find Rebecca and propose that we collaborate [00:30:30] on a film together. So that's how the project began, and then it's gone through many manifestations. As some of you will know, Rebecca and I have had an exhibition of stills and photographs and stills and films that have toured New Zealand and and are now in Barcelona. And then the film itself has a life as a as a documentary and travelling around festivals and so on. So that's just a, you know, a very tiny part of the story, but probably made way more interesting [00:31:00] to you, is is, um, the people in the film. So it's just I just really like to say how wonderful it is to be here with money and Rebecca and Jack, because their stories and their courage and their amazing craft is what made the film, I think, resonate with so many different kinds of audiences. So, um, you know, far away with questions and and perhaps they want to say a little something, too first, let's see Jack. Oh, just [00:31:30] one other thing is, I think it must have been fantastic for those of you who have witnessed Jack's extraordinary facilitating skills and Jack, you know, I'm sure he's helped a number of you make it here from other countries, and it must have been quite delightful to see another side of that. You you may not have, um, you know he wasn't backwards in coming forward in the in the brief time we had when we together. Yeah, and I just think it it's quite funny to look at it because, um, [00:32:00] Kirsty and the wonderful um what what do you call them? Cameraman Chris were turning up my house, and and And it was when I was still like my My life was extremely busy, so I'd worked. Yes, I've worked really long hours, and I think I got home half an hour before they got there, and I didn't really have much of an idea about what we might do. And I just started doing dress ups, so which isn't particularly political. [00:32:30] But, you know, that was what we we ended up doing. And you could, I don't know if she didn't, do they? They Chris was with the camera in the doorway of the of that room, and I was a really great flat. I had that huge wardrobe with lots of costumes and other clothes in it, but the whole floor was covered in clothes, including my kim at the frog outfit. So, um, but you made something beautiful out [00:33:00] of it. Yeah, we've got our own. Oh, you got your own. Yes, I don't really know what to add. It's, um there's so many things to say. It's probably, um, more important to know what you want to know about, because it's such a huge project that spanned for so many years. So, yeah, hand it over to mhm. No, I don't. Nothing in particular [00:33:30] other than to say any question that you've got sitting there is is certainly welcome on my part. And if the others don't want to answer, I'm sure they'd say so. So please ask. This film uses very simple techniques. Um, it was just It was distilled over a long period of time, which I think is one of the, you know, great gifts that the people in the film gave to me as a filmmaker was allowing me to keep showing [00:34:00] up and so on. So they weren't, you know, massive budgets or high tech crews like, you know, not that I'm saying you would want to do animations, but, for example, the little one of Mary the Super Eight animation I bought those toys from the $2 shop. Um, I picked a bag full of chaia from my garden. Um, you know, we made this on a Super eight camera that my camera person had. Everything was done very simply. I produced, directed and edited it in my you [00:34:30] know, next to my kitchen. Um, it was just the extraordinary goodwill. So I would say more, You know, the place that you're coming from and the place that the the people in your film are coming from, Um, that will shine through. It's not about trying to trick people, I. I personally think the beauty is incredibly potent. And so it was something that I really wanted to sort of. Distil and Distil, A well crafted and really beautiful film. But that's just one way and [00:35:00] one approach. And I think, you know, it was the honesty and openness and vulnerability of the people. And that wasn't through high tech Or, you know, any trickery that just came from people being really open and coming. You know, Rebecca talked about this a little bit, uh, in the panel. But she had a very, very ethical approach that included allowing people, um, absolute right to withdraw either their images or parts of their stories and that [00:35:30] in in turn, allowed people to make themselves very vulnerable, vulnerable, knowing that they could could pull it back if they need a toy. So I think it's much more about the working relationships and the kind of processes that that you use that will, um, make your film. I'm sure. A really a really wonderful one. Oh, I think, um, I think my question to Rebecca, but it's not really Well, it is one question, Um, Eileen Brown is my name, um, [00:36:00] I. I feel actually part of a journey and that I remember going to the book launch at the at Unity Books and then buy the book and and then going out to the and now coming tonight, it feels like it just gets it and deeper. So, um, I guess you know, perhaps one question It's not really a question, but, you know, I, I sort of think what comes next, then, um but just [00:36:30] a kind of a technical question was the music was wonderful, and I wondered whose music it was. Um, so my, um, in conclusion, Yeah. Thanks for the journey. So many things, and yeah, it's it's, um, something that's Yeah. Just been deepened tonight, and yeah, the music was beautiful too. Thank you. I'll speak to the music in a second. But Rebecca, maybe you'd like to speak first about this project that just won't go away and won't stop because it Yes. Um, [00:37:00] I think it is I. I experience it similarly in that, you know, every time it has an outing, be at an exhibition, a film screening, a discussion. Um, it does keep getting richer. And the other lovely thing is, our relationships keep getting richer because I didn't know Marie before. I saw a newspaper clipping. Kirsty didn't know me until she saw my book. You know, I didn't know Jack until I saw him on stage, you know? So we've [00:37:30] all kind of grown and got richer through the journey as friends and as artistic creative people, which has been, you know, wonderful. And I think that's kind of we give each other the energy to kind of keep it rolling because it has been really challenging many, many times. Um, but I think it's it's also got, um, such a spirit and a force of itself. You know, as we were talking over dinner that it's It's almost like it's [00:38:00] strange to refer to it as something inanimate because it feels like a being, you know, um, as we speak here. There are people in Barcelona who are reading the text panels. They're watching the film translated into Spanish. You know, it's the reach of it. Um is testimony to the to the power of it, and it's almost like, you know, yes, it's kind of born of us, but it's It's also kind of its own little entity as well. [00:38:30] So we have enjoyed and been challenged by the journey along the way, and, um, and it's been, you know, that's been international encounters as well. Jack and I were in New York launching the American edition of the book in October. Um, you know, we did the book launch in Australia as well. He's taken it, you know, being on the ground in the States when there's been film screenings. There's so many, you know, a a occurrences of of when [00:39:00] it's been out in the world and each time kind of feels yeah, that it does definitely enrich and deepen the the journey. There's also that, um, like for any of you that have been to the exhibition spaces, I think I I particularly remember the opening at the where called us up from down below after we'd had a night of performances. And then we had a Elizabeth doing the and we all went up into the [00:39:30] the exhibition room or in Christchurch. And there's some people here who are at the Christchurch one where we had, um uh um commissioner, um, Richard Tankersley, who's, um, bless the space along with, uh, one of the from down there because, um, the the exhibition was in the space where the mummy had been. So, you know, we had to cleanse the space, and it was like, all of those people that are on the wall and normally whenever we go there, Beck stands and tells you about all the people on [00:40:00] the wall and this amazing, you know, sister girl, um, rusty from, um, Australia. There's, um you know, you go round and name them all. There's there's the queer from our trans community, like on the wall, you know, And, um so all of them are there. There's a history with it, and then it's created its own history, and it's, um So it is like past, present and future. You know, it's it's got all of [00:40:30] that and it's, you know, it's really powerful. Whenever we travelled down, any of us to to it when it was there, like you felt like you were going back to see old friends and I always cried, did you? One of the things I want to add is, um, in terms of the journey and the evolution. When Kirsty [00:41:00] started doing the filming, the thing that I was really excited was that Rebecca was exposed. And and I mean that in a beautiful sense, not in a negative sense, because in the book, yes, there's her photographs, but you have no sense of this extraordinary human, which is the genesis. So when we're talking about the evolution, I look forward to the film about Kirsty because Kirsty mirrors Rebecca in a very different [00:41:30] way. But the what Kirsty brought to the project and what is captured in the exhibition is that the one dimension of photography became this multi dimension of of the process. And and I think that that's something quite extraordinary that the two artists working together captured, which, as far as I know is quite unique. Um, another question, as far [00:42:00] as beautiful music. Um, there are two main composers. One is James Webster who created the instruments and played all of the traditional Maori music. And that happened through a very fortuitous accident. Um, the sequence that you see of Emma being dressed in the 21st century cyber sister costume at te Papa almost didn't happen, because that day Wellington airport was closed with fog, and [00:42:30] she was supposed to be arriving at 10. In the morning. And, uh, the planes were cancelled, and hour after hour, she'd call and say, Shall I just go home because, you know, they're not letting planes come. And I said, Oh, no, please, if you don't mind, just hang out and keep trying. She made it there an hour before, at about five o'clock, just before we were going to have to shut down. Um, and I'd been filming with a mannequin up until that point, in case that was all we could do. And while I was waiting, her friend, the artist Suzanne Tamaki, who'd come down from, [00:43:00] um, Otaki to dress her, I'd said to her, Look, I really want to find some music, something that has a really deep, kind of very grounded. Um, if you like masculine, earthy, kind of equality. And I'd like there to be some either kind of spirit, kind of a high kind of feeling with a lot of space in between, she said. Oh, I've just done this fabulous fashion show in Nelson this weekend and this really great guy, James Webster. He did the music, and so I've never met him. But he kindly [00:43:30] agreed for the music to be used. And then, um, the other musics from a fabulous composer called Claire Cohen, who's a young New Zealand woman who's just wonderful. And there's a funny story to do with that as well. But, uh, probably less relevant to our conversation tonight, Thank you all for staying, by the way, it's fantastic. So I would just like to acknowledge, um, your guys' work and how artistically talented you all are. When [00:44:00] is the, um, stage play or musical opera coming out? Yes, Big just said, Who's gonna play me? You know, we can hear pretty well if you just, um, last question. I think there are a lot of parallels between those images and nothing. Um, can you elaborate a little bit on if there are? [00:44:30] Um, yeah. Um, you're referring to sweat. I'm just doing a plug here. Sweat that's on at Mark Hutchins Gallery 2168 Willis Street. Um, yeah, um, parallels. It feels quite different work to me. Um, however, I think there is What I would see as the parallels with it is probably the intention of the work, um, which is around [00:45:00] breaking down, um, perceptions of, um, sexual intimacy. And, um and but just to explain, for people who haven't seen the work, there's there's a wall of 100 and eight images, um, of intimate, intimate exchanges between people, and they're quite close ups and the it's interactive. So people can move the images around, which means you might have an image of, um, two gay men with hairy chests [00:45:30] next to two lesbians, um, kissing each other's necks next to, um, a trans couple next to. So it was sort of about kind of distilling it back. I think, um, you know, um, sexuality can kind of be very, uh, levelling, um and I and for me, but through my experience, of, you know, identifying as a lesbian. And now, being with Jack, who's a trans guy, [00:46:00] Um, I've I've come across people who sort of can't quite fit me in a box anymore. So it's really wanting to kind of break down those boxes and really make it about, you know, these are little moments of intimacy, and it's about that intimacy rather than it's a boy and a girl or a girl and a girl and a boy and a boy and a girl and a trans person. Or, you know. So that's how the my, um um, analysis of where [00:46:30] the parallels are. Aesthetically, it's very different work. It's colour. Um, it's small. It's kind of, uh, you know, um, montage together. But, um, yeah, I think the intention comes from a similar place, which is kind of acceptance of diversity and, you know, distilling back to to to our humanity. Thank you for the question and my ability to plug my show. Nothing. [00:47:00] Whole process started off involved. Work and challenge. Um, well, no one dropped out of the photographs. Chris can reply and related to the film. Um, So, [00:47:30] um, it was it was kind of through my approaches. It wasn't. I didn't kind of advertise. I did advertise for this latest show, but I didn't advertise for people. I kind of found people and had had a conversation with them around it. And as I was saying before, no one, no one said no. Um, everyone went through with it. And I think, um, Kirsty mentioned before because I had, uh a process that allowed people to pull out if they weren't happy with the results. [00:48:00] Um, it was quite a safe, um, a safe way to say yes to something, knowing that they had control over it. Um, sorry. What was the second part of your question? Many, many, many, many? Um, yeah, it's hard to sustain. It's from the first photograph to the book. Publication was eight years, so that's a long time to sustain energy of a project. Um, [00:48:30] and I thought that was the end of it. And then Kirsty came along. Um, so it's It's like 15 years now, Um, and it's never generated any money. So that and it's, uh it's cost me a lot of money, and I sold my house in order to publish the book. So It's, uh that's been a challenge to be able to sustain something that I'm completely passionate about. And I really want to get it out there. Um, but at the same time, I have to, you know, make a living and get by. So, [00:49:00] um, but I think kind of the positives of it was that I did self publish, so I had no external parameters of a publisher saying, Oh, yeah, it's nice, but I don't want that to go next to that. You know, I had complete editorial control, and given that I had honoured, you know, given everyone editorial rights, that would have been very difficult to manage within a commercial publishing, um, you know, contract because they're they're fronting up with the money. They're gonna want editorial [00:49:30] control over it. So there's kind of been pros and cons around all that. Um um I think despite all the sort of small challenges along the way, I've never considered that well, with the book, I've never considered that it wasn't gonna happen. It was sort of this stupid belief that, um, you know, it had to get out there in the world. And I was, you know, people were saying Just just move on. You know, you've you know, [00:50:00] you've approached 100 publishers just, you know, start something else. And but I never, um I never doubted that somehow it was going to happen and, you know, and I never kind of dreamed that it would grow into the thing that it is now. Yeah, And that's exactly how I felt about the film, too. When I saw Rebecca's book, I was just absolutely certain that under all circumstances we would create this film and it would go out. And I even [00:50:30] believed from the very first moment that I saw Rebecca's book that she would get a publishing deal in New York. So when that did actually happen years later, I was just like yep, yep, because I knew that it was so beautiful and so strong. And even if every single person in the world isn't interested in in gender identity and identity, politics and queer issues, it's just such an unusually potent book, and the people in it were so vivid [00:51:00] and, you know, compelling that we just needed to keep going because it would find an audience, because that's the other thing You know, we've done all this stuff, but people have come and watched it and engaged with it and supported it. And people in positions of authority have said Yes, we will have this exhibition at our museum. And yes, we will screen this in our festival. And so other people have taken that that offering [00:51:30] and gone. Yes, we we hear you, you know, it's I don't think I mean, certainly the photographs are very potent, but they're not didactic. And hopefully the film is not bullying people either. But it's got a very strong point of view. And I think that there's enough space in there for people to engage. You know, that was always my number. One priority was creating a space that people wouldn't go. Oh, well, that's just something I don't really know about. And I a bit weird and sort of turn away, [00:52:00] but actually feel invited to come and, you know, just be present. So yeah, and that began with the images and that kind of certainty, I think sustained the unreasonable passion that we had. How much do you think that assume? Nothing has helped to achieve public knowledge of kind of the human rights, um, inquiry into transgender rights. Um, [00:52:30] and also, was it kind of purpose like seeing that they came out at the kind of the same time? And also, was it purposeful for it to be kind of a form of activism? What was the last? Was it purposeful for it to be a kind of activism? Um, the impact of this project, the the quantum, is enormous. Um, as has already been said, 200,000 people attended this exhibition. [00:53:00] In a country that has a population between, what, five and 6 million people. 4. 5, 4. 5 million. Sorry. OK, so the percentage is enormous. The other thing about this exhibition was it had a general classification. This was an exhibition that Children came to see with parents. And one of the most moving narratives in this many is the first day that [00:53:30] the exhibition was opened. First public day. Um, Jack and Beck went out and followed by chance, um, a man and his two Children up the steps, and they paused at the sign and and there was a parental caution. And the kids excitedly said, Dad, can we go in there. So they run into the gallery and they're confronted by the images and they turn around and they say to their dad, You know, are these boys or girls and and Dad not [00:54:00] realising that the artists are behind says, I don't know. Let's go and read This exhibition transformed people's lives. You know, For many gender, variant, transgender, queer people, it was the first time in their lives that had a reflection of their reality. Um, I'm gonna finish there and let Jack carry on III. I don't know how you start to say it. It was this size [00:54:30] or the size. It was enormous. And I think it's it's also that, um every place we went, we worked with trans people locally. So what happened there was different in different places, But we also when we had our public workshops, we did a trans 101 a young and trans and a creative one. trans vocal that we brought in people from other places to bring in more diversity. We took, [00:55:00] um, down to, um, actually down to Christchurch. We took young people around the country like when we did the one we brought in a whole lot of young people for the first youth panel because there was weren't that many in Wellington at that time, and there were people there doing stuff, but I think it, you know, it was a good time. It it it hit a and, you know, transform started very soon after that. It might have started anyway, but it gave a a bit more of a focus to it. Um, Ford started [00:55:30] quite soon after it was in Christchurch or or some I can't remember the order, but it was around the same time that supported each other. Um, so it it supported people's activism. Anyway, it wasn't the only thing that it, but it supported it in. It was good for us as a community because of that sharing of those diverse stories. It was, uh, you know, I particularly love the the ones where we were creative together, and we, you know, had fun together. And it brought different parts of our community because our community, [00:56:00] like any community, is quite diverse. And it brought different people together. Was it purposeful? Um, was that was That was hard for me. Um, actually doing parts of the inquiry because I started it in, um, probably late 2005. Over my summer break, I, um, moved to doing it in my summer break. Um, scoping it and, you know, because I couldn't be Jack Burn, [00:56:30] I had to be someone working at the Human Rights Commission because it's for any of us. When you're doing something under another hat, it can be quite difficult. And, um and of course, you know, like, where where those boundaries are. And then there was this other boundary between, You know, I was a bit nervous about saying to the commission, I think we should support assume nothing. You know, when I knew that was happening and in fact, so So really, it came from Beck approaching the commission, Really? And the commission's been hugely supportive, [00:57:00] and and I actually think, you know, the commission Human Rights Commission got a lot out of, you know, got a huge amount out of it. It was a huge act of generosity from, you know, getting a AAA public art gallery tour in New Zealand and sharing it with all of us. But it's just kind of how we do things. Do you think? Yeah. I don't know. She's probably got some more. Um, I think it was. It was intentional, and it was purposeful. Um, I mentioned on the panel today. It's, [00:57:30] um I didn't want people to go into a gallery, read a few stories, look at a few pictures, watch films and go away and not do anything about it. So forming the partnership with the Human Rights Commission gave a vehicle and a platform to enable people to engage on a much deeper level. Um, they could take a copy of the inquiry report away, away with them. They could give it to their schools, their workplace. It just became a very, um, um, sanctioned [00:58:00] environment for I mean, we had we had many, many stories of people for the first time. They would invite a work colleague. You know, if they had gender identity issues themselves. It was kind of a respectable, um, respectful place to say, Look, can you come and look at this exhibition? I'd like you to see it and then that kind of facilitated dialogue, because, you know, you can't kind of leave there without having conversations about it. [00:58:30] Um, but yes, it was It was definitely purposefully, um, that that partnership was purposefully designed to, um, uh, consolidate any action that people would want to take it gave people opportunities to to to take action, to take a terminology sheet away, um, to to attend a workshop. Um, so it's it meant it could [00:59:00] operate on many levels, whatever was most comfortable for people. It was sort of, you know, we kind of laid a smar board out for them, and people could come and pick what they were comfortable with at that point in time. This one funny thing I was thinking about, as you were saying, that was about, um So during the time of when I was working on the inquiry from 2005 through to, you know, it's 2. 5 years later when it's when it comes out or a bit over two years. And so I'm having meetings with, you know, senior government officials and staff around each of the [00:59:30] issues there because we we collected all the stories of trans people. But then we showed those to the government agencies so trans people could find out what the how what what the government agency's responses were to an issue. And then the commission, um then said OK, based on what the Trans people have said. What the government agencies have said, these are our recommendations. So I'd had, you know, quite, you know, serious conversations with people. And I remember not long after I assume nothing started being, you know, [01:00:00] having another serious conversation with a senior official in a government agency, and he just dropped into the conversation halfway through. I saw the exhibition last week, and then it's kind of interesting because you just laugh because, you know, this person's seen you in in your underpants. Um, there's one other thing I'd just like to add to that which kind of ties assume nothing to Grace's film a little because historically, um, when I first wrote out what we call a treatment, [01:00:30] which is kind of like the plot of the documentary that you write before you've actually shot the documentary. So you've got a bit of a map, even though reality will take you, you know, far, far away from your map. Um, the first person I ever interviewed for this film was actually Georgina Baer when she was still an MP here. And, uh, for those of you who don't know, Georgina Baer was the world's first ever transsexual member of parliament. And, um, [01:01:00] she was proposing to to put an amendment to the Human Rights Act here in New Zealand where gender or the the yeah gender identity to to to protect that legally and in words and have that encapsulated within our written definition. And so initially, the assume nothing film based on on Rebecca's work and people in the book was going to explore the the passage of that that bill [01:01:30] as it as it took place. As it turns out, the bill was never, um, put in Georgina not that long afterwards, left parliament and and the film took what I think is a much more stronger and inviting path, which was to explore creativity and gender identity and the whole idea of a kind of joyful celebration of gender identity through art. But it did begin as a much more self consciously activist, [01:02:00] um, sort of historical archiving meshed with with with that, um which it seems so long ago. Now, I I've just remembered it. Come here. Um, hi. Um, one of the things that I've been thinking about. Well, because, um, we have a copy of the book we attended the Who in Palmerston North, and we now we've seen the film. Um, and I remember first opening the book and just being sort of overwhelmed [01:02:30] and challenged. Um, my question is really to Jack and Manny is How did you feel when you first opened the book or when you first saw the film? So what emotions did you feel about seeing yourselves exposed in that way? All right, well, I'll start. The, um The first public imaging of of Rebecca's photographs were in Auckland, [01:03:00] and I had my genital surgery, Um, and a lot of the medical interventions that occurred to me and in Auckland. So those of you who know, um, the school was on the side of the gully and the hospital was literally on the other side. So the experience of mine of having my own naked body hanging in a public place [01:03:30] under my terms and with my permission, was one of the most transforming experiences of my life. And those of us who have been involved in the project also then, as Rebecca, they had to wait a long time before the book, um, became a reality. And then the the first book launch also took place in Auckland and as Rebecca is an artist and an extraordinary creative person [01:04:00] at a chance meeting meant that at the opening our images were projected onto the side of a six story building. So we went from these images inside an art gallery, and they were reasonably large to having our our images portrayed on the side of a six story building in in Auckland. Almost beyond words, but definitely healing, transformative and and as you can now see, [01:04:30] I mean, these are some of my most important friends and, yeah, a transformative process beyond anything that I could have imagined. I I'm also a therapist, and I've often thought you know about what's occurred here and one of these stars. I will sit down and write it up because it's important and profound, and we need to work out what actually did happen. Jack. Well, I'm I'm not in the book because [01:05:00] I didn't know when she took those photos. And, um, the first night we went home together, she showed me some of them um, but I did get on to the, you know, four Jack page. So sometimes I sign that page if people ask, um, but I'm in the exhibition in the film. Um, I think my biggest feelings about the exhibition are more about all the people [01:05:30] that are there. Like, it is the images of us going up with up and up to the opening, You know that that, um they are my stronger images, but I do have an a AAA memory. A very strong memory of the first time. There's two photos of me in the exhibition. Um, one's, uh, the colour one that you see there where I'm wearing the, um, the white jacket. And I'm sort of looking a little bit angelic or something. And that's total. That was [01:06:00] another equivalent of doing dress ups. It's one of my favourite activities. And, um, had a couple of shots left on her in a camera, and, um and so I, you know, was quite late at night, and I jumped on top of the bed and put the jacket on, and I just freak, you know, fluke shots. Really, I shouldn't really give that away, should I And so, um, but the other one is, you know, me looking lovingly at big, you know, kind of like they had a black and white one. And, um [01:06:30] what the The day that we were signing off the final version of the transgender Inquiry report. And so I was sitting with the commissioners and we were going through it, and I had a half an hour break when we had a lunch break and Beck was printing that off. And it's it's film. So and and it's on special paper that she doesn't have many copies of this. This she can tell you that technical stuff, but, um and she was it off. And [01:07:00] oh, I did feel torn because I knew she would really have loved me to be over there and I. I had to get this finished and I dashed over there in my lunch break, and it was the first time I'd seen a picture of it being developed, and we stood together and and watched it, you know, that was that was pretty pretty special to see your image coming, you know, through the developer. So I've got That's my very strong and it's all positive. It is all hugely positive and and and affirming. And I think my, um, Emma see it [01:07:30] in the film. You know, be, you know, you say it, too, that what you do is you make people feel you. You show beauty in all its forms. So we all feel great when Beck takes our photo. Can I just, um I know I'm not in the book, obviously, but, um, in relation to sort of having having the camera position flipped, being part of the film, Um, that was one of the gifts of as Kirsty said, it took [01:08:00] it, you know, spanned over over many years. So as, um, I felt more and more. I put certain parameters on what I was prepared to talk about in the film. Um, but as as the project evolved and as I kind of evolved, um, I felt more and more comfortable about revealing more about my So So I sort of made a choice that I wasn't going to tell my story. I was happy to talk about the creative process with everyone else in there, but, um, [01:08:30] over time I felt like and and Kirsty kind of encouraged that It was kind of, you know, a little bit strange that I wasn't kind of vulnerable and revealing my story as as well as the other people. So, um, so the the last, uh, take that, we could add some extra footage. And that was, you know, my civil union, Um, and answering a few, you know, other questions. That was more about my relationship [01:09:00] and how I identify. And, um, so there was a little bit of nervousness, which was kind of interesting for me to feel because I'm, you know, asking people to do that for me all the time. Um, but it was such a massive gift. I, um, gave a copy to my parents, Who were they struggled with me. Um, being with Jack and I mean, they are incredible people, but they did take a while to kind of get their heads around it. They didn't have any awareness [01:09:30] understanding experience of anyone who, you know, was Trans. Um and, um, they watched, uh, So I gave them a copy to watch because I knew it was going to be public. I didn't want them to see it. For the first time in public I wanted them to be able to process it, ask any questions, whatever. So I kind of nervously gave them a copy quite soon before the exhibition opened, maybe a couple of weeks or something, and I didn't know how [01:10:00] they were going to respond to it. And, um, my mom rang me up, having watched it, and she was crying, Which doesn't happen a lot with my mom. Happens a lot with me and my dad and everyone else in the family, but, um and she just said, Look, I'm really sorry that I've taken so long to understand. You know, I really prior to that she didn't get my relationship with Jack having seen the film, she got my relationship and she got the absence of her accepting [01:10:30] that and and the impact that that had on me without me saying any of that. So, you know, as I said to Kirsty, she kind of gave me my family back, and that's been, you know, a huge gift in the whole process. So we've all kind of healed and grown, and, you know, it's all we've all kind of grown through it in in measurable ways, really, and Mom's like one of the biggest promoters. She takes the transgender inquiry to all the doctors [01:11:00] she knows, and and whenever we we had exhibitions or anything, there'd be all these people who looked like they were engineers or accountants or something. And we realised they were there because, Beck said Mum had told them to go. Quite a few have slipped away. Well, it's obvious what an amazing experience this has been for an awful lot of people. But it was a great Q and a as well. [01:11:30] I just want quickly to thank Gavin and Mark for doing the technical side and Carol the logistics and grace who's gone, I think, but particularly to thank these four. I mean, it's clearly been an amazing journey, and we're very privileged to share a bit of it. It's been pointed to moving. I'd seen the film before, but I saw it quite differently tonight and it was wonderful hearing the discussion, so thank you all so much. [01:12:00] Yeah.

IRN: 369
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_moana_parsons.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004178
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089472
TITLE: Moana Parsons
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Moana Parsons
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Diversity Liaison Officers (police); Moana Parsons; New Zealand Police; Wellington Town Hall; crime; human rights; law; police; support
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Moana Parsons from New Zealand talks about being a police diversity liaison officer.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, my name's MOINA. Parsons and I joined the police at the age of 23 because it was my childhood ambition to join the police. Um, I. I can't remember when I first decided I was going to be a police officer, but it was just always there, Uh, and I guess because it is what I wanted, I made it happen. Yeah, So I was a university student in Dunedin at the time, and I was just finishing off my degree. Uh, and I had [00:00:30] started the application process, and I went for my first interview with the recruitment officer down in Dunedin at the time. And this was back in 1998. So 12 years ago, uh, and we sat down to have our interview and, uh, the interview was proceeding, OK? And then after a few minutes, he said to me that he just wanted to check that I was joining the police for the right reasons. Uh, because, um, a woman had a habit of joining the police and then within two years, getting pregnant and then leaving. [00:01:00] Uh, and I was quite gobsmacked that he'd even suggested that to me and I you know, it hadn't even occurred to me that I might get pregnant or that that might be an issue. Uh, and I didn't really have a reply from that. Other than assuring him that I had no intentions of getting pregnant anytime in the near future. Uh, and so then the interview progressed on from there, and within a couple of minutes, he looked down at his paper and said to me, Oh, I see that you've listed your partner as female. Uh, and again it hadn't [00:01:30] Can you know, it hadn't crossed my mind to to be anything but out when I went into the, um, interview process. Uh, because I was out in my own life and at university, and, you know, it hadn't It hadn't been a problem. And it hadn't occurred to me that there might be an issue within the organisation. Uh, and and he said again, I need to just check that the you know, that you're joining the organisation for the right reasons. And I looked at him sort of quizzically, and, uh, and he said, you know, because some people have a habit of, um, you know, they [00:02:00] they join to push their own bandwagon. And, um, you know, again, I didn't have a response for that, Uh, other than assuring him that I had joined because I wanted to be a police officer. I. I had wanted to be a police officer since before I even knew that I was a lesbian. And that's why I was joining because I wanted to be part of the organisation and nothing to do with my own sexual preference or identities. And with the training, did you find there was any discrimination, or did you feel [00:02:30] there were situations where it was different because you were a lesbian? No. Uh, when I got to the police college, there were, uh, 80 in my wing. There were 14 women and four of us were out lesbians. Uh, so I was in good company, and I felt really supported throughout that process. Um, whether that's been the same experience for everyone, I don't know. But, um, I certainly, um, never came up against any discrimination because of my sexual orientation. What about in terms of women in the police force? And I'm just wondering, How do the genders [00:03:00] relate? And how does that relate to sexuality as well. Yeah, it it It's an interesting and topical question. I know there's been a lot. Uh, you know, there was, um, uh, a report put out recently sort of talking about women and the police and how the organisation perhaps hasn't advanced as as quickly as it could have. Um, and the the police is a male dominated occupation, and women are the minority. Um, when I joined the police, when I first started working on the street, I was the only female on my section. And it was three years before I got [00:03:30] to work with another woman. Um, and and I think they can't help but be differences because of the imbalance between men and in physical numbers between men and women. Um, the the the whole sort of structure and thought processes that go on day to day work is dominated by male thoughts and and male interactions. And therefore, you know, I think it it is harder for women to be able to sort of stand up and and to do the job, they to do the job they want [00:04:00] to do, and in the way that they want to do it, which is often quite different from the way that men do things because men and women are inherently different creatures. Um, so, yeah, I. I think there's still a long way to go, but there has been a lot of changes. For example, now, on section I'm a I'm a female sergeant. I have, um, seven constables on group and two of those are female. So on on a group of seven, there are three women. So that's that's come a long way from from my early days when I was the only woman. [00:04:30] What about in relation to gay men being in the police force? Are there openly gay officers? There are openly gay officers and sadly, not as many openly gay male officers as openly gay women. Uh, officers. And, uh, I feel that it's easier to be a gay woman in the organisation than it is to be a gay man. And again, I think it's because it is, uh, it is a male dominated, um, organisation, and traditionally it's been seen as [00:05:00] a heterosexual male occupation. Um, you know, for all the legal reasons, Um, but obviously, since the the changes since the, um human, um, the changes to the human rights amendment. Act around. Um uh, law, uh, employment law. Uh, so you you know, you can't be sacked for being a gay male anymore. Um, the opportunities are easier for men now than they were then. But there's still a long way to go. And it is easier for women than men. And I think because, [00:05:30] um well, you know, lesbians aren't seen as a threat to the to masculinity and and to the men within the organisation. And we're accepted as one of the boys, um, far more easily. And, um whereas gay men are still in, you know, and I guess it's an inherent homophobia that goes across our society, not just within the police organisation. Um, you know, gay males are often seen as a threat to the masculinity, and therefore it is harder for them to to come out and to be openly gay [00:06:00] at work. Do you have any examples of homophobia in the police? The I think there is still a lot of, uh, homophobic banter that that is is again, uh, sadly, part of our culture as a whole. That it's so gay. The the frequent use of the the, you know, derogatory, um, homophobic comments figure. Um, and I do hear those in the workplace and, you know, as a gay female and as AD LO I make it my job to [00:06:30] challenge those. Um, it's time, place and circumstances, though, uh, and I'm only one person. Yeah, uh, that that would probably be the most common form of homophobia would just be that that, um the the use of homophobic language in every day. Um, yeah, in the workplace. Uh, I'd like to say that it doesn't happen out there on the street. Um, and that we're professional when they're out there and that people let their guard down, perhaps when they're back at the office. Um, but [00:07:00] yeah. Uh, but as far as actual but, uh, actual discrimination as such, I can't think of anything off the top of my head that I personally have witnessed. But then I've only been here for 12 years, and perhaps some of the members that have been in longer would be able to come up with some some fairly interesting stories. Yeah, I'm wondering about Are there any instances in the work that you do that kind of jar against kind of gay and lesbian culture. I mean, I'm thinking of, for instance, like, say, pride [00:07:30] parades where there might be a bit more flesh exposed, or the, um, gay beats for for public sex and stuff are are there instances where the whole idea of being queer and being the police kind of jar up against each other? Yeah, and I think the gay beats is probably a really good example of that, because the hero parade doesn't exist anymore. Unfortunately, and I don't think we've had a parade for a long time in Wellington. Um, but beats are certainly still alive and well and part of our [00:08:00] community throughout the I mean, I work in. So throughout the Wellington district, there's a lot of, um, beats that are frequented. And I'm sure there are probably staff members that frequent those beats. Um, and from time to time, we still get called to jobs at the beats. Um, you know, uh, popular public toilets that are that are part of the sort of beat circuit, if you like. Um, and I guess educating and talking to, um, my colleagues about how [00:08:30] to handle those situations as part of what I do and part of the process of, um, of making it less of an issue and and making that whole process smoother so it can be handled correctly, uh, and not dealt with in a knee jerk reaction that could have sort of long lasting, damaging, uh, repercussions for the people that are involved. When you say dealt with correctly, what does that mean? Uh, well, I think there's historically there's, um you know, it hasn't been dealt with particularly well. And and, um, back in the seventies [00:09:00] and eighties, there was certainly the beats were targeted by the police, and there were cases of entrapment. Uh, and there were, you know, upstanding members of society who frequented the beats who whose lives were destroyed by the way that the police reacted. And I would like to say that we're all a bit more enlightened these days, and part of the DLO role is to is to reinforce those messages, um, that there's a right and a wrong way for dealing with people who are frequenting beats and and certainly, if the behaviour is overtly offensive, [00:09:30] then it can be dealt with because it's overtly offensive and not simply because it's a beat and it's a gay issue. Yeah, you've mentioned a couple of times. DO What? What is that? Sorry. DO stands for diversity liaison officers. And we're a safe point of call within the organisation for members of the GL BT I community. If they don't feel comfortable fronting up to their, um, you know their home station with a complaint or they feel that they haven't been dealt with, um, as they would have liked, they can contact the DLO, and then we can help get the ball rolling [00:10:00] from there. Also part of that role is is that education was actually in the force itself. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, some of us deliver training. I've delivered training to the senior courses at the police college. The the, um, the community constables courses, the senior sergeants courses. And and it's all simply around. Um uh, well, we used to call it inclusiveness training, but it's diversity training as well, and just familiarising them with the terms. Um, talking to them about beats those sorts of things and and sort of common [00:10:30] common issues that they may come across. Um, when they're dealing with the GL BT I community how much how much training is given in that in that area? Uh, it sort of depends on where you are in Wellington. We're quite, um, you know, we're lucky we've got the police college right there so we can hook into the training that's already happening there and and get our message across. Um, but some of the some of the sort of the smaller centres, um probably don't get any exposure to training of that sort whatsoever. Yeah, uh, we [00:11:00] we So we have a programme once a year. We'll run, uh, a training session with the frontline constables. And we'll we'll run the same training session for five weeks to cover off all the different sections that are working in the district. Uh, and it's part of the mandated training programme. So that's another way of hooking in there. So this conference is this the first time the police have been represented at a, uh, a queer conference in New Zealand? No, Uh, we've been to a few, Uh, the last one that we went to was the agenda, the annual or bi annual agenda [00:11:30] conference that was here in Wellington a couple of years ago, and that would probably be the the the last big conference that we were at. Um, and and mostly it's APR exercise because a lot of people don't realise that the DL OS uh exist. But there's also a lot of issues that we can help discuss with all the different, um, groups. And it's a good networking opportunity to hook in with all the other agencies. And what do you personally get out of it? Job satisfaction. Yeah. No, it really is. Uh, I I'm [00:12:00] a My full time job is I'm a frontline I work in. It's a pretty difficult job, and it's often very negative. Uh, and often, uh, when people meet me, I'm I'm there to arrest somebody or deliver bad news. Uh, and my DLO work is a positive injection into my work. Uh, and it's a portfolio position. So it's something that I do, uh, on the side and in my spare time. Um and it gives me a lot of satisfaction of doing something positive for my own community [00:12:30] Now, skipping your head 30 years. If somebody was to hear this in 30 years time, what would you say to that person I hope that things have changed and that things have progressed. Uh, and I hope that the DL OS are no longer needed, because ultimately, that's what we want to do is we want to do ourselves out of a job because, I, I would like to think that we'll reach a point. Um, sometime in the future, where everybody's a diversity liaison officer. Everybody understands the issues that are specific to to the queer community. Um, and [00:13:00] there's no longer a need to have somebody specific there to do that liaising.

IRN: 368
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_mitch_yusof.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004177
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089471
TITLE: Mitch Yusof
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Mitch Yusof
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Malaysia; Mitch Yusof; human rights
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Mitch Yusof from Malaysia talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm Mitch. I'm from Malaysia. I'm here because this is where my family is the community. What are human rights like for queer communities in Malaysia? You heard my laughter. When they say there are human rights, you know when they say walk the talk, they don't walk the talk. There's a lot of discrimination, especially against the LGBT community [00:00:30] lots. And it is I am very disappointed and very perplexed on how they see the LGBT community. I mean, maybe they think that we are not human. What kind of discrimination do you have? Examples like recently, one of our gay friends came out in a video that's called I'm Gay. I'm OK, right? Have you heard about it? Yeah. And then when he was on YouTube, it was flooded with messages, even [00:01:00] death threats. And the government did not do anything about it. Instead, what they did was to condemn the person the the gay man that did the video for outing himself, you know? So instead of saying to the others that threatened him and said, You know, you shouldn't do that just because he's gay. But the government condemned the gay guy, so I am very perplexed and disappointed with the state of the government in that aspect. [00:01:30] How did he handle all that? All that negative publicity. Well, the last time when I met him, it was very The video has been pulled out, OK? And thanks. It was very difficult for him to smoothen things out with his parents. Um, other than that he needed a lot of support from the community. What about your own experience in Malaysia? Well, I think maybe because [00:02:00] I don't care what people say. So even if I'm walking and they just said, Look, cure and I and I just walk away because you know what? It's my life, and no one has got the right to dictate who and what I am. And so that's why I feel at home amongst the community here amongst the family here. Had you ever been to a conference like this before? Not for the LGBT community. I've been for the HIV and AIDS, but not for the LGBT. [00:02:30] This is my first time. And what is the best part about the conference so far? A lot of networking, a lot of sharing of information. I think my main, my main interest of being here is to learn on best practises from other countries in which I can then practise it over my place. Are you part of any support or queer LGBT organisation in Malaysia? I am working with an NGO CBO. [00:03:00] It's called PT Foundation or otherwise known before as Ping Triangle. Does that say? And what does that do? Well, we are into HIV and AIDS prevention, HIV and AIDS prevention amongst the five marginalised communities which are the MS M men having sex with men, the drug users, the sex workers, the transgenders and also people living with HIV themselves. So it's because of our [00:03:30] situation in Malaysia. So it's more about HIV and AIDS. Instead of advocating for gender and sexuality rights, what are the biggest challenges you face in Malaysia When it comes to gay and lesbian issues? The challenge is almost everywhere. There is always denial on the existence of the LGBT community. It's like [00:04:00] as long as you don't shove it to my face, I'm OK with that. You know, if you are gay, OK, fine, be gay. Behind closed doors don't come out and just shove it to my face and say that you're gay that I cannot accept. That's the kind of mentality that they have. I mean, maybe I'm talking through experience and I may not be talking for all, but how I experience the situation is that's how it is. So there is some tolerance tolerance. Yes, there is some tolerance, but you know what? [00:04:30] They got this. I think they've got this group mob mentality. If one says, Let's kill the gay, they all will kill the gays. What do you think would have to happen in Malaysia for things to change, for things to be a bit more accepting? Wow, that's a long That's a long journey. I think what should happen is the change of mindset. Yeah, but it's got to start both ways, whether it's from top and bottom. It's got to start simultaneously because [00:05:00] but it starts from the bottom and the top don't change their mindset. It's not going to make a difference, right? It's a long, long journey and I dread to think about it. If if somebody is listening to this in 30 years time, what would you like to say to them? I would say and is the person are they gay? Are they from OK, I'm just gonna say is any much better then do you think it will be really I [00:05:30] really, really hope so. But you know what people will say. There's no hope. You have to act on it. That's right. How do you translate the words that we hear in this conference into actions? What will you do when you get back home? Well, what I have to do, For example, I've been listening a lot about what's the best practise and all that. So I just have to put it into practise in my organisation, for example, on how they have dialogues instead of looking [00:06:00] at. From my perspective, I should be looking it from the other side and maybe they'll be able to I'll be able to understand them and interpret it to them so that they are able to understand what I'm saying.

IRN: 367
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_mike_bryant_and_eba_clemens.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004176
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089470
TITLE: Mike Bryant and Eba Clemens
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Eba Clemens; Mike Bryant
INTERVIEWER: Jim Whitman
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Eba Clemens; Jim Whitman; Mike Bryant; Wellington Town Hall; bullying; genderqueer; human rights; intersex; rugby; youth
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Mike Bryant and Eba Clemens from New Zealand talk about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: You've had a day of and a half of the conference. What's it been like? Intense, but thoroughly enjoyable, I think. Um, yeah, it's it's It's been emotional and intense at times, but I think it's thoroughly worthwhile and lots of fun. Oh, hell, yes. Fun. First conference for me. So it's, um, definitely in your experience. Um, yeah. So what have you found That's challenging [00:00:30] about it being open. Um, where I come from, down in, in the cargo while you can be open, it's not enough people in the lesbian and gay communities, um, to make it, you know, out there sort of thing. So being here and seeing, um the community is being open and free is is quite remarkable. Um, for me, it was, uh, [00:01:00] like, for example, yesterday we were in one of the we were in one of the caucuses. Um, and there was this man talking about coming out in Fiji, and he went through all this crap, all that absolutely awful stuff, you know, molestation and and abuse. And I think the most challenging. Yeah, I think the most challenging thing for me was hearing stories, hearing that and hearing stories like that and, [00:01:30] um, I don't know, sort of I I have to. It makes me have to sort of sort of shift my world around a bit because I've always had it fairly easy, and I forget that other people have awful times. So I have to change my perception. That's a challenging thing for me. No, it was horrible hearing his story, Um, the amount of people that he went to for help, the amount of people that wanted him to do things for him to [00:02:00] get that help, uh, like sexual favours. And I just wanted to go over and give him a cuddle. Him, Actually, I wanted to see him at the end of it, but he he quickly dished away, um, which I thought was sad. But I mean, in situations like that, I can understand that you wouldn't want to be there for too long. Yes, that's deeply shocking, isn't it? There's a quality of abuse and exploitation around [00:02:30] many people's experience, whether it's what transgender prostitution, it's continuous, perhaps? Well, as I said, I mean, I had I had a fair bit of bullying at school, but generally I had it pretty easy and nothing can compared to a hell of a lot of people here. It's heartbreaking. Some research I was listening to in Australia. Um, it it presented a pretty tough time. You know, young people in school, [00:03:00] I got a sense that Do you think schools have human rights? People sign up for conventions. My my school was pretty good, to be honest, Um, I was I. I got more shit. When I was sorry, I got I got more insults and bullying before I came out. Then afterwards, after I came out, it sort of went the opposite, and everyone sort of wanted to be seen as really accepting. So my school was really good. But I've heard some horror [00:03:30] stories from other schools. For me, it's the opposite. Um, you might find teachers that would want to support it, but administration would be against it. Um, the youth themselves would would be against it. And it's like you can't move on without someone actually standing up and literally fighting with everything they've They've got to get, you know, change happening Are the particular types of people [00:04:00] in school do you think, or in your experience as young people who make life difficult for you Or can it come from rugby, boys? The the sort of big jock, popular type guys and and the the giggly, popular Pretty girls generally make it quite difficult. I. I would think that the sort of misfits understand a bit more. So they're a bit more accepting. I think, Um, I know there was a [00:04:30] seminar that was that. I went to, um, yesterday, um, you know, saying that, um, single schools would have the hierarchy of this is the lower levels. Then you've got your sporting achievements, and you all look up to them and want to be there and be this masculine thing. Yeah, and then they've got their arms fed under their chest, very staunchly and being, you know, I'm the man sort of thing. And [00:05:00] yeah, I think that increases the pressure to not be feminine. To not be something that's not big strong. I can handle whatever happens. That was hard for me because I'm a Nancy little gay boy. The the the research. It's something I can identify with myself. Um, I I when I was younger, I knew what my sexuality was. I think after a point in which I realised and things [00:05:30] got a bit clearer. But if you ask me, are you a Are you male or female? Then that's quite a confrontational question. If you don't want necessarily to be a man, the one I get quite often is because I sound gay and I used to have longer hair. I quite often get little kids going. Mommy, is that a boy or a girl? Which is quite it's always quite fun. It's not for the for the whole question. I [00:06:00] actually find it quite funny because I've actually been through school. I should say, um told that because I'm gay, I want to be a female and it's like I've asked myself that question, you know, do I want to be a female? And it's like, No, I'm happy with what I've got. Um, I just want to be with another man. My mom said the same when I came out, and she was like, Do you want to be a girl? And I replied with No, I'm quite fond of my Penis. Thank you. It's definitely something you're attached to. Oh, yes, well, [00:06:30] that's attached to you. So wagging the dog sexuality and gender can be quite separate. Yeah, they they definitely are. They are. And you know, a person can be transgendered, and they can Just because they change their sex from one to the other doesn't mean that their orientation changes. They're completely and utterly separate, but and the same way they also have that definite connection. It's It's a very weird thing. [00:07:00] Yeah. So your experience of the conference has been positive. Um, are there any things that you'd like to take away with you? There's nothing that I don't want to take away with me. I want to take everything. I'm I'm forgetting the names of friends because I want to make more room in my brain that I can keep everything in to upgrade your hard drive. I've heard that before. No, Uh, I, I think that everything [00:07:30] I've learned has been, uh, important and worthwhile. So I'm completely happy. Yeah, I'm glad that yesterday they were doing intersex workshops, But what they, um, changed, um, was that they were going to do three separate things, but they decided to reduce it down into three sessions to have all speakers speak. Um, for me, I've never experienced people that have identified as that. So it's quite a, um, [00:08:00] opportunity to go and see. So that's what I and you learn what gender queer means. Still learning what gender queer means? Were you very familiar with the ideas of human rights Before coming to this conference? I think I sort of in terms of human rights. I had a vague, all encompassing type idea, and in a way, I still have that. But more of the grey areas have been filled in, so [00:08:30] I still have this large idea of what human rights is and should be. But there were patches, and those patches are slowly getting filled in. If that makes sense, I have to agree. Um, that was said bluntly, Um, you're welcome. Um, you know, we've all got this preconceived idea. Um, and then someone says that, Hey, these people should be included. You know, Why are they left outside of the majority circle? And it's like you've [00:09:00] got to keep reassessing. What is the correct thing to do? Because it's not like something that you can go. They are such and such, or they are something else. It's Yeah, I think it's definitely a living principle, and it's always going to be changing. And you've got to move with it because society is always changing. So human rights itself should be as organic as we are because, you know, humans are all crazy. Anyway, our opinions and thoughts change. And so human [00:09:30] rights should sort of some of the speakers have sounded as if they might have had more human rights before imperialism and criminal codes imported from outside and religion and human rights is turning the clock back for them to possibly a better time. Um, which is less the case? Possibly for people, Um, in New Zealand. Yeah, because in comparison with a lot of other countries, [00:10:00] New Zealand is pretty sweet. Really? I mean, I, I think that as a whole, New Zealand is actually pretty accepting of the whole gay thing. There are obviously the the wankers that you'll get those everywhere. So how do you feel about New Zealand? Um, I always knew that New Zealand was unique. Um, and I always knew that the of made it unique and all that, but it's just reaffirming that, you know, self teaching [00:10:30] sort of things is true and that you know ground making work literally does start where you are. So the Treaty of Waitangi was li literally the start of New Zealand forming its own, um, independence. Even though we might be linked with laws and all that sort of thing, we can evolve, um, and proceed. Um, it's just a matter of getting out there doing it and basically bringing it back to the people.

IRN: 366
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_michael_stevens.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004175
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089469
TITLE: Michael Stevens
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Michael Stevens
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Michael Stevens; Wellington Town Hall; human rights; media
DATE: 17 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Michael Stevens from New Zealand talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um I'm Michael Stevens. I'm a gay man. I work in academia. I'm a sociologist at the University of Auckland, working on a PhD. My main research areas are around HIV and gay men and, um uh, sexuality. And you came to the conference because, um, I came to the conference because, uh, when I was invited to come and speak here, um, to give a presentation on human rights and, um [00:00:30] uh, religion and how that how those two have intersected in the world of, um, sexual minorities. And because I'm always interested in getting some kind of, uh, international, um, perspective on what's going around in in the world. So I wanted to see what's happening. So with your presentation, how do those two things intersect? I would say they I mean, there have been aspects of religion that have that have been supportive of, um, queer rights. But, um, generally established religion is not so I was sort of looking [00:01:00] at the fact Does it feed into that? Can you give me some examples? Um, or we can see things like, um, some branches of Christianity becoming more and more open to sexual diversity and sexual minority These are not the mainstream churches, not the big churches, like the Catholics or the Orthodox, typically. But, um um, often smaller church groups have decided that that their interpretation of Christianity means they should support, um, sexual minorities and their achievement and their struggle to achieve full, um, dignity [00:01:30] and human rights. So it sort of examining the social forces that that drive that and the areas of social change that push churches to change their position. Do you think that change, particularly in New Zealand, is? I mean, is it becoming more liberal and more conservative? New Zealand? Well, yeah, I would say that New Zealand Society is is fairly liberal. It's not radical, but it's it's, um, it's fairly liberal, and religion doesn't play a large part in in the public sphere. In New Zealand life, it's seen as a private matter. And so there's a lot of, um, public tolerance for difference [00:02:00] now, much more so than there was, say, 20 years ago. I think there's been a distinct change. Whether it's going to last for another 20 years is another matter. Why do you say that? Well, I'm just aware that things do change over time and unexpected, um, social forces can arise. Something could happen to switch. Um, you know the country to a much more conservative mindset or something that's that is possible. I don't think it's likely. I'm just saying it's possible. What are the biggest things you get out of out of a conference like this? I think it's [00:02:30] the face to face contact with, um, people from around New Zealand and from around the region. Um so whatever form of, um, sort of sexual minority, we belong to just being able to, um, hear their stories, to meet them over coffee, to discuss a few ideas, to say, Yeah, that really resonated with me or that's interesting. I never thought about it that way, just that sense of connection and also that sense of recognition. And, you know, New Zealand's tucked away at the bottom of the world. We're a long way from everywhere and everybody, [00:03:00] so it's great when we get a chance to talk to people from, you know around the region who come here. So I think it's a really valuable opportunity. Has there been anything that's really challenged? What you've thought or or or some of your ideas? No, not yet. No, I mean, this is a human rights conference, and I guess I'm a human rights hawk. So, um, I'm no, Nothing's actually challenged my way of thinking here. I've heard a lot of things I really agree with, or some things that have made me, um, really pleased to hear about, but nothing sort of. I don't [00:03:30] think my position needs too much changing. So what are some of the things that have resonated with you the most? I think for me, the highlight so far has been, um, Marilyn Waring's, um, speech at the opening plenary, probably because we come from a similar generation. And so she was talking about her life story, and I'm a few years behind her, but I remember all the events she was discussing and talking about. And, um, I think just the way she talked about it and how she presented it just, [00:04:00] I think was was excellent. And yeah, for me, that was That was the best thing I've heard so far. Can you describe the mood or the vibe of the conference? What have you picked up? I think the vibe is very positive. Very upbeat. Um, it seems reproductive. Um, sessions are busy. No one's complaining that I can make out. Everyone seems happy. So So that's a good sign. I guess one of the things is how to translate all the positive energy and the words into [00:04:30] actions after the conference and to keep the momentum going. Do you have any thoughts about that? That's always the problem. And that will depend on maintaining networks, keeping in contact with people and, um, or keeping the ball rolling. Basically, I think it will. I mean, you know, people that this is not the first time this conference has been held. It certainly won't be the last time. Sure, So this will be an ongoing event. Now, I know that you're very media savvy and that you blog and, uh, very interested in kind [00:05:00] of gay media. And I'm just wondering if you had any comments on the level of reportage that has happened about this conference and the art games, both in the gay media and also in the mainstream media. Well, the mainstream media has ignored it, basically, hasn't it? Which is disgraceful. Um, this is a major event happening in the capital and there should have been some coverage somewhere. I mean, I haven't seen anything. I. I think there was a small there might have been small articles in the Dominion Post, but not not no [00:05:30] mainstream TV news. Yeah, I mean, you would have thought we would have got 30 seconds somewhere on the TV news or something. Um, so I think that that mainstream coverage has been poor. Um, and I think it's a sign of, um what? Heterosexual? I think it's a sign of oppression, if you like, you know, to be bluntly political. You know, they're marginalising us that if you if they don't talk about us, you become invisible, even though we've actually been extremely visible in the city. But if the media makes us invisible, that dis empowers us to some extent. So I don't like that, um, [00:06:00] what I've seen with the gay media. Um, well, all I've seen is gay and Z, and they seem to be updating their website every couple of hours or so with stories at the moment. So that's been great. I think in the way they've been trying to cover it. Now you're based in Auckland. Aren't you? Yes, I'm based in Auckland. So how is this conference in the out game scene in the Auckland gay circles? Um well, I think the out games was much more visible in the conference itself, and people were looking forward to it. People were talking about training [00:06:30] and participating and having a good time and really looking forward to coming to it. I didn't really hear too many people who knew that much about the conference itself unless they were other academics or, um, activists. But an awful lot of sort of, I don't know, Um, Non-activist, if you like ordinary, um, gaming that I knew were coming down here to participate in the games and really looking forward to it. What will you take away from this conference? What are the biggest things you would take away? I think it's always that sense of solidarity of hearing, you know, when you hear, um, stories [00:07:00] from, um, halfway around the world that, um, you can relate to and you think, Yeah, that's actually something I've seen in my life, too. It builds a sense of solidarity and connection, and, um, I think that's always an important thing to do for um, any marginalised group and to have that awareness of each other and just reinforces, um that, uh, we might be minorities, but we're not alone. What do you think the biggest issues are for queer cultures in New Zealand? I think that some of the biggest issues are complacency. [00:07:30] I mean, I think a lot of people think that, um, we don't have any real problems left any longer, and I'd say that's not true. I think there's still a lot of, um, homophobia out there. I think when you look at gay mental, um, queer mental health in general, Queer alcohol and drug use queer suicide rates, they're vastly disproportionate. Um, compared to the rest of the population, this is bad. This is something we don't like. Um, so I think that's something to be that we need. We need to be aware that [00:08:00] we've made great gains, but we haven't achieved complete equality at all. This is a human rights conference, and for me to achieve full human rights means to be treated exactly the same with the same level of dignity, the same rights and the same responsibilities as anybody else. The fact that the number of people accept the civil Union bill instead of marriage, for example. I would say, um, that it's a lesser form of relationship, but it's a lesser form of recognition. It doesn't give us full equality in terms of human rights, and it's something I personally opposed at the time. I think we should [00:08:30] have gone for equality or nothing. So I think, um, I think complacency, I think thinking, you know, things are much, much better than they were 2030 years ago. There's no denying it, but we've still got We still got things to fight for. We still got a struggle. Um, if you're, um you know, a young, a young queer of any sort of type growing up in or whatever life is gonna be still gonna be pretty hard and pretty isolating. How do we reach those people? How do we look after them? I think we've still got real issues to face. Um, but I think I think they're getting. It's getting [00:09:00] harder to make people see them in what way? Oh, because so many of us do live comfortable urban lives. You know, um, we can be out in our workplace and that sort of thing. We just get on with our lives and we tend to forget about the people who aren't enjoying that kind of lifestyle and who won't be able to. And that's what I mean. I suppose, by the complacency, we sort of look around. If you if you live in urban Wellington or Auckland, you know, you can you can see gay men. In my case [00:09:30] around you successful living ordinary lives. Everything seems fine. You forget about all the people that aren't included that that don't have that level of of freedom and and and ease in their lives that we do. So I think we need to remember that, um, it's, you know, we are privileged and privileged. It doesn't, um, spread out to everybody equally. And I would like to see us, um, push for that, that level of social privilege to be more widely distributed. So if somebody is listening to this tape in 30 years time, [00:10:00] what would you like to say to them? Be 80 nearly. Um, what would I like to say for someone in 30 years time? I hope. I hope things have, You know, I hope we haven't gone backwards at all. I hope, um, sexual minorities are no longer the issue that they are in this time and that, um, being queer of any type is has become a non event. And, uh, that those sort of some of those social indicators that I mentioned earlier, like suicide [00:10:30] rates, drug and alcohol abuse, et cetera. I hope that they, um they are down to the proportionate level with the rest of the population. I hope that you know, I. I hope that I hope it's a better world and a better place, but I'm not sure it will be.

IRN: 365
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_mary_anne_mcallum.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004174
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089468
TITLE: Mary-Anne McAllum
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Mary-Anne Mcallum
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Auckland; Mary-Anne Mcallum; education; human rights; lesbian; research; school
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Mary-Anne McAllum from New Zealand talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Mary Anne McCallum and I'm from the University of Auckland and my paper was based on the research I did for my master's thesis. And I looked at the schooling experiences of young lesbian and bisexual women in New Zealand and New Zealand secondary schools, and the results from the data showed that these young women felt that they were really disadvantaged in several areas in their schooling. Uh, the the treatment by [00:00:30] their peers, the treatment by the the school in general uh, the lack of health promotion in the school uh, the But what I talked about today was the sexuality education programmes in schools and how they don't really, uh, embrace inclusivity even though it's in the New Zealand curriculum. Um, inclusivity and diversity are not regarded that they're overlooked in many cases and in particular [00:01:00] in the sexual sexuality education programmes. And this of course, puts those young women at a disadvantage. And some of those disadvantages include, uh, the way health teachers, PE teachers, whoever teach sexuality, it teach sex education. So it's based more on the physical aspect. So the aspects of who you are as a person, your identity, your orientation, how you behave sexually. Uh, it's glossed over [00:01:30] and it's glossed over because a lot of teachers are frightened. Uh, one example that I I gave in my talk was two of my participants actually asked me for answers to some of the questions one of the teachers had told them. So they were two separate participants in two different parts of New Zealand. They both had the experience where the health teacher had told them that if they did not save themselves for marriage, they could catch AIDS so [00:02:00] that that was horrifying. And how recent was this? This was in this century. This was in. I did my fieldwork in 2007, and as I said, in two different, wildly different locations, one was a state coed, very large high school. The other one was a small coed, uh, religious institution. And but both the teachers were male. Not that I'm saying that had anything [00:02:30] to do with it, but it it it It spoke volumes about the teacher's own beliefs and attitudes and knowledge. And here they are teaching sexuality education. How easy is it to do research in that age group? Uh, if if I could just get to the students. It would be just easy because the kids want to come and talk. They they need to talk because it's an opportunity for them to vent. But we have difficulties [00:03:00] in accessing my current research. Looking at, uh, young by women in New Zealand secondary schools, Uh, I've sent out 30 packs of information to secondary schools, and that was actually four weeks ago. I've had one. Yes, I've had three definite nos. And two of those schools have got a very high, um, diverse population and the students and in the staff. But it was a flat. No, it was an absolute denial. And so that means [00:03:30] I've got 26 big, gaping voids where schools have probably put my, uh, material in the bin. They haven't even replied. So when schools deny access, is that through because of the general teaching population, or does it have to be ok through like a A board or a principal? Generally it's got, and this is part of the ethics, uh, process. It has to go through the school principal who is the representative of the board of trustees. [00:04:00] So if the principal looks at it, and and says no. Then my hands are tied. I, I cannot really go any further. In my master's research, there were a couple of schools where the principals went to the guidance counsellors and said, Hey, look, uh, what can we do about this? And the councillors arranged. Everything was fantastic. Uh, but that was because the principals had a lot of time for the Coors, and they also had a lot of time for their student [00:04:30] communities, and they recognised the diversity. Uh, in most cases, school principals will use the excuse that no, we're not allowing research of any kind. And then I know that's not true, because I know of colleagues who are actually working in those schools doing research. So I think it's that it's that word that that puts them off. It's that sexuality thing. We can't have that in our schools. We don't have people like that in our schools, and I have actually had that response from a principal. [00:05:00] We don't have people like that in our schools, so it's really it's saddening and it's sickening because it to me, it it, um, it it suggests a huge lack of understanding and a lack of, of even interest in understanding that there to process these little knowledge units instead of looking at them as whole people. There was some comments from the floor about the use of the word bisexual instead of the US using words like [00:05:30] queer, and you made a comment about kind of ethics approval for using something like bisexual, as opposed to queer. Can you talk about that? The choice of the word by comes partly because that's how I identify, but also because queer theory, uh, and the use of the word queer for a start. Um, look at the way the term gay has evolved over the years and and where we're at now, Um, many people who [00:06:00] I know who are lesbian, bisexual call themselves gay, and that's cool. Um, queer. There's the dare, I say General populace interpretation. But then there's queer theory, and I'm going to be using queer theory in a way to decentralise a lot of the beliefs that are out there in schools. But I chose bisexuality because I believe it is a term that is usable. I know young women use that term [00:06:30] to describe themselves. Um, and I know, too, that the boundaries to bisexuality are as flexible as as those big elastic things that little girls use for jumping games. And I think I described it as a, um, a cardboard box. And if it rains, then it melts. And so there's no boundaries, so you can be by, but it can mean a huge range. It's not a restrictive term. Somebody asked me if they had a a trans person who, uh, identified [00:07:00] as Bi. Would they be eligible? And I said, Heck, yeah, yeah, I welcome anyone who identifies as female, So yeah, so by as opposed to queer uh, more, more definitive And for the for the purpose of my study, it's more definitive and more usable. So what do you think, the research or what do you think the results of the research will be used for to to get me a PhD? No, [00:07:30] that well, that's obviously that's part of the reason, because I want to work in places that I can't work currently because I don't have one, but that work. I want to be in the area of of civil rights of of human rights, and I think, uh, to look into it myself to to build up my own knowledge bank is gonna help me enable other people to either to share the knowledge or or the skills, um, to [00:08:00] help make things better for diverse sexualities. That's that underlies pretty much what I do as you were saying. I mean, there's a huge gap in In in the literature for for bisexual women in this country. Yes, bisexual women in the world. Basically, uh, older women, adult women there there is, uh, there's some wonderful people. There's Robin. I think that's how you say her name. Uh, in America, there's the the, um by any other name book that's that's been around for a long time. [00:08:30] There's, uh, Mary, um uh, Paula Rodriguez. Russ, uh, Kirsten McLean in Australia, But in New Zealand there there really isn't. And there there's no, uh, literature, no academic literature in New Zealand that just looks at bisexual young, bisexual women. It's usually lumped in with young lesbian women and really, the the needs I see, uh, for the two groups are quite [00:09:00] separate. So that's partly why I'm doing it. I just want want to make a space and and it's It's our space. It's a it's a by space. So what are the specific needs for bisexual women? Well, firstly, to feel that they're not imposed, that they're not imposters. And I know, uh, and I've experienced this myself. Um, I've been accused of exercising the heterosexual privilege, and [00:09:30] that really makes me feel awful because it's like I'm using something and then that that's just so totally against who I am. Um, a lot of young women use the term as a way of hooking guys, which is a bit of a concern, but that that's that's what they do. It's part of who they are at the time and part of their journey. Uh, but II I know that there are young by [00:10:00] women out there who have issues. Um, as I said, uh, they don't know whether they're straight, whether they're gay, where they fit and it's where they fit because often the the lesbian communities within the schools the students won't accept them because they might have had a boyfriend or they might show interest in a boy. So well, you can't be part of us, so you're not lesbian. But because of the the interest in, um, same sex. When you're [00:10:30] moving in the straight world, you can't. You don't feel a part of that either, because you the straight people say, Well, what are you doing in our group? You should be with the lesbians. So really, it's it's a it's a no go zone because there's nobody brave enough to step out there and say, Well, um, I'm by, come and join me So maybe that's something that will come out of what I'm doing and for you personally attending a conference like this. [00:11:00] What does it mean to you? What do you want to get out of it? Oh, look, I, I Well, like everyone else, I've only been here for three or four hours, and this is just amazing. I never wanted it to stop those speakers. The plenaries was absolutely fantastic, but I think to to to move in, uh, physically be amongst people who are so diverse not only in their sexuality, but in who they are as people. It's I I'm on a real high. Um, it's a real adrenaline [00:11:30] buzz, and I just say power to us to all of us here, and I just hope that this that out games, the conference that it keeps on. And I'd love to know where the next one is going to be. Absolutely, well, just thinking ahead. So let's, let's say, 30 years. If somebody was listening to this in 30 years time, what would you like to say to them if you're nothing? Well, if they are listening and they are doing any research into bisexuality, I hope you read my thesis. [00:12:00] But also I. I would like to think that in 30 years time maybe we don't need to have conferences like this because we, we're we're all just going to be people out there being who we are, and it's not gonna offend anybody. Nobody's going to be prosecuted or murdered or have stones thrown at them or anything. And it will just be a big, happy family. And everybody's cool.

IRN: 306
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_marilyn_waring_keynote.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004124
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089418
TITLE: Marilyn Waring - AsiaPacific Outgames
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Kevin Hague; Marilyn Waring
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Auckland; Fran Wilde; Ilott Theatre; Katherine O'Regan; Marilyn Waring; The Children's Hour (film); Wellington Town Hall; activism; human rights; politics; transcript online
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Marilyn Waring delivers a keynote presentation. Marilyn is introduced by Kevin Hague. The presentation happened during the opening plenary: Intersectionality - the whole of us.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Marilyn Waring is a personal hero of mine, and I'm sure of many of the people sitting in the audience today. If she isn't already, she will be soon. She's a professor of public policy at a UT University in Auckland and has held fellowships at Harvard and Rutgers universities. She was elected to New Zealand Parliament at the age of 23 in 1975 and served three terms, and during that time she chaired the public [00:00:30] accounts and Public Expenditure Select committees. She's internationally known for her work in political economy, development assistance and human rights, including working right throughout the Asia Pacific region. She's the author of a number of books and please join me in welcoming her Now [00:01:00] to and Thank You for Our Sisters from Samoa. Male. Um, it's first of all in this space I've been saying to myself, It's almost like I'm sighing, but I'm not. I'm taking these huge breaths and exhaling [00:01:30] with the relief of being in a space with my extended family. Um, what I want to focus on a little bit today is what I call the silent human right dignity, not one. The New Zealand courts have ever engaged except in minority judgments. Uh, like many of you, I've been monitoring international news. And so I noted that this week the future [00:02:00] debate on the BBC was the question. Is homosexuality an African wow, I went, is disability. An African is religion, and African is old age, an African. How amazing that they think they can take who we are and question whether or not a whole continent [00:02:30] might be an African. Because not only might they be part of our extended family, but they might even live in a country like South Africa where we're allowed to get married. It's been a long road for all of us to get to this hall, and I'm just gonna share some of that part of my own journey in the 19 sixties when I was 13 [00:03:00] or 14. And I know this because I can remember very clearly the room in which I sat everything about it. I began to watch a black and white movie in what used to be the Sunday afternoon cinema programme. On television. It starred Audrey Hepburn and Shirley McLean, and both were stars in our household. But it must have been a fine day because I was alone in that room and [00:03:30] I watched it because it seemed to be about a girl's boarding school. It was Lillian Hellman's The Children's Hour. Some of you, I can hear already know this. In it, Karen and Martha are just beginning to succeed in their struggle to make a school for girls a going concern. They have to discipline this young pupil who's a congenital liar and always wants everything her own way. And, uh, so the [00:04:00] kid calls on her grandmother, who's very rich and, uh, repeats to her, not to, uh, repeats to her that she thinks that Martha has an unnatural attachment to Karen, and Grandma's horrified and she spreads the words to all the parents and car after car begins to arrive at the main entrance of the school, loading their daughters into them and driving them away. And not a word is said and no explanation is [00:04:30] given. But with the final child to leave, they are told of the rumour. Karen thinks the lie is outrageous, but Martha declares herself guilty of ruining both their lives. I do love you, she says. I couldn't call it by its name before and soon after Martha makes this confession, Grandma arrives to say that the granddaughter's been congenitally lying again. She agrees to [00:05:00] a public apology. She wants to hand over a large amount of money to support the school, uh, and pay for all the damage that's been caused. And during all of this Martha Leaves and Karen hears all of this. Thanks. Goodness, it's OK. We're all right, sits alone for some time and then you. You know, the film sees something triggers, and she races across the school to Martha's Room. [00:05:30] She has to break the lock of the door to get in, and the cut in the film to the inside of the room simply shows a noose in silhouette and an overturned chair with a single shoe beside it. Now the lesbian word wasn't used anywhere in the film, but that was my first lesson in what might happen to women who loved women. And despite the fact I'd had no sexual experience at all, I knew I was one of them. I was amazed to discover [00:06:00] a couple of years ago that Anne Marie McDonald, in her novel as The Crow, flies uh, gives her central character exactly the same experience with the Children's Hour. One or two years later, in fact, I was shifted from high school to a private girls boarding school to be finished off. Um, [00:06:30] I was quickly introduced to a term used of some of the friendships that my contemporaries used referred to as Les Friends. I had no idea what they were talking about, and it took me some time to unobtrusively inquire. And when I learned the term lesbian, as I did with new words, I went to the dictionary in the public library and I discovered the will of loneliness. Radcliffe Hall's novel, of course. When it was published in London, the authorities [00:07:00] declared it obscene and seized it. And, um, the US charged the publisher with obscenity. As soon as the well appeared in print. And in the New York court, a presiding judge ruled that the book tended to debauch public morals, found that pub publisher guilty, and all of that was a good enough recommendation for me to hunt it down and read it. Now the book tells the story of a girl who's born into a wealthy English family. She's nicknamed Stephen She has [00:07:30] tomboyish ways. Uh, her father, Sir Philip, um loves her to bits and isn't going to get in the way of this, but is heavily influenced by both Carl Ulrich. Um, some of you might know his work. Um, he certainly thought that homosexuality was natural and healthy. Uh, and Richard von Kraft E. Who, of course, um, called us inverted, uh, and began expanded [00:08:00] on the theory of disease, Uh, and that most homosexuals had mental illness. Uh, Sir Philip never says anything about this to Stephen. He dies, Stephen becomes a successful novelist, falls in love with Mary, the two of them race off to live harmoniously in Paris, Going to the bars. Um, And there, of course, gay and lesbian people are portrayed as people who lead lives of despair, finding momentary relief in creme de monde and cocaine. [00:08:30] Um, tragic, suicide prone and alcoholic. Um, Stephen loves Mary so much that she feels guilty for Le Le, leading her lover into this tragic life in a seemingly hostile and accepting society. So she resolves to kill herself so that Mary can be freed to pursue a more rewarding life as the wife of a mutual friend. So in my short [00:09:00] life to that point, suicide or suicide was not great role modelling. There was no Martina and no Allen. The media images of the sixties of the feminist movement, either, frankly, weren't promising to me. Boots, boiler suits, bikes and anger didn't do it. For me. To see several dozen women, neither Su suicidal nor leather kitted dikes on bikes under a Lesbian nation banner at the 1975 [00:09:30] United Women's Convention was the first exposure I'd had to alternatives. It was also the year I entered the New Zealand Parliament. I remember on the first couple of days, handwriting out the man's field risk, risk, anything. Care no more for the import. Let me start again. Risk, risk, anything. Care no more for the opinions [00:10:00] of others. For those voices do the thing hardest on Earth for you to do, act for yourself and face the truth. And beside it I put TS Elliott, I'm sure, out of context, but it worked, and right action is freedom from past and future. Also, for most of us, this is the aim never here to be realised, who are only undefeated because we have gone on trying [00:10:30] well in the New Zealand parliament, I was definitely the gayest MP for nine years. I don't know what it is about this testosterone competition the lads have. Tim was always desperate to claim he was the first out. MP obviously missed [00:11:00] six weeks of the truth in 1976. Uh, it was fabulous in there for me in the national party caucus, especially when I was the only woman in the caucus. Uh, I was frequently advised most Thursday mornings that, um, most normal women didn't think like me. Um, the opening survey from Muldoon the night that the government fell was really interesting because it told me immediately that he wasn't interested in mediation. [00:11:30] And that was What the fuck do you think you're up to now, you perverted little liar that I It's OK. He, uh, was no more seen much after that. Um, certainly the years, um, have seen lots of changes in my life since the viewing of the Children's hour. My sexual preference was never [00:12:00] subject to criminal sanction. Thanks. Um, to the interpretation of Queen Victoria's exercise of the Royal Assent. Assent to legislation. Um, I've been interested in the story about Queens today. I actually forgot to bring all my medals, Um, which I normally only wear on occasions like this because it says you've got to wear them in the presence of royalty. Um, and also, I was thinking during the last [00:12:30] contribution that not only, um do we have representatives of Queens, but we have kings as Queens as well. Um uh, in New Zealand, it's especially thanks to two women members of Parliament Frank, Fran Wild and Catherine O'Regan that there's been development of equality legislation. But while I'm thinking about development, um, I should say something about working in development. I have, [00:13:00] um, worked in many countries where I'm not afraid to tell you that I pull out the old gold Russian wedding ring. I stick it on his finger. I carry around old photographs of my three nephews as Children. I carry around a photograph of my brother, and when it's necessary to try and get domestic violence into the national plan of Bangladesh, I bring them out and show everybody my Children and husband, um, I'm not afraid [00:13:30] to use what has to be used to get through it, and I know that some of the work I do is more important, frankly, than my own pride and integrity at that very moment. And I tyre of those who think that there's only one way to be gay all the time, and that's to be out everywhere because you can jeopardise other [00:14:00] people's movements in doing that at the same time. Now that everybody can google me and find out exactly who I am, I really tyre of the silences and Presumptions that I am especially greeted with when I work in the Pacific. Every New Zealander who works for our high commission is there, knows I'm gay. Um, and [00:14:30] most of the women activists that I'm working with know that, too. And yet I'm expected to endure tedious breakfasts, lunches and dinners while they share what's happening to their partners and their Children and their grandchildren. And nobody even bothers to ask of my own parenting and Children straight. People still have a lot to learn in New Zealand. Internationally, [00:15:00] we have started to say some of the right words at unit United Nations venues. I'm thinking in particular of the late Clive Pearson, Um, speaking on behalf of New Zealand at the Commission on Human Rights 60th session and on behalf of the Cairns Group. So Canada and Australia in there as well discrimination against people on the grounds of their sexual orientation takes place in all too many countries. [00:15:30] It's silence that allows human rights to flourish. It's silence that allows misunderstanding and mis mistrust to grow into fear, intolerance and discrimination. We are not prepared to compromise on the equality and dignity and rights of all people, end quote. But it wasn't the truth. Australia hasn't even got me a civil union and civil union is certainly a compromise on our dignity. I understand our Australian brothers and sisters [00:16:00] wanting to visit here for a civil union. But what of the essential question of human rights in Canada? I witnessed Jenny Rowan and Jules Jocelyn's wedding. I've witnessed Tel Dawson and Angie McDonald's, Uh, and I wonder, since their marriages there are not marriages here. Just what was I at? I'm familiar with many other types of [00:16:30] marriages that are uncivil unions, but I'm not sure that that's the term, Uh, that is appropriate here in my professorial inaugural for a UT University, um, which is available as a podcast if you're desperate. Um, actually, it's a damn good lecture. Um, uh, [00:17:00] and I focused on the framing of the debate around marriage in Canada and New Zealand, and I focused on it, particularly because, with the exception of about two or three words, New Zealand's Bill of Rights and, uh, Human Rights Act, uh, and the Canadian Charter are identical. Both of them are drawn from basically the civil and political covenant and protocol. Um, [00:17:30] and so, you know, in politics, you always understand you're talking about really important leadership, Elizabeth, that most important political issues, just like strategic planning draughts are framed before they hit the community. Somebody's already determined how far they think we can go. And in New Zealand, from the very beginning, we were framed to lose our dignity. [00:18:00] Two phrases I recall as central to the Canadian Civil Union versus marriage debate. First of all from Michelle Douglas, the woman who won against the Canadian defence Force who tried to decommission her on the basis of her sexual orientation as she led the Ontario Gay and Lesbian Defence Task Forces. She's also who paid employment in the Ontario, Ontario, Attorney General's Office which helped a bit during all of this. Um, she she [00:18:30] talked to me about how civil union represented separate but equal the apartheid solution. And I recalled John, uh, jean's response to the pressure from the Liberal Party to have a referendum. We don't have referendums on human rights for minorities, he said. It's why we have human rights laws so the majority cannot impose their lukewarm efforts on [00:19:00] minorities. And from the attorney general in, uh, Jean Paul, cabinet equivalence is not equality. And I think of those, um, Jews in Germany, those blacks coloured whites in South Africa, those coloured white people in the southern states of the United States. They were all [00:19:30] asking for the dignity of marriage. They weren't asking for all the other 102 laws to be changed. What they were centrally interested in was the equality and dignity of marriage, not equivalent equivalent and not the apartheid solution. It was a sad but understandable uh, experience in New Zealand that our gay [00:20:00] leaders could not wait to move until equality was the only purpose. I understand. In a parliamentary context, I certainly do. I just mourn that second class rights were deemed enough yet I take heart in this gathering and the research that is available and or ongoing just in the last couple of years in Australia. The work by [00:20:30] La Trobe de Deacon Relationships Australia on same sex parent families doing work on organising home work and home and same same sex families. Um, no surprises. Really. Um, same sex couple couples divide household labour significantly more equally than heterosexual parents. Lesbian couples shared parenting tasks more equally. Um, no matter who [00:21:00] had the child or who breastfed among lesbian couples, you could not then determine, um or that it was assumed that that mother would be the primary child carer. Certainly in the longer term, um, the other work that they're doing around, um, sexual orientation and mental health and well-being, um, things that we equally that we all know. But it's always great to have the rigour [00:21:30] of academic research supporting what we always knew. The feminist movement came through this, and now our own organisations are doing the same. I want to pay tribute to Mark Hendrickson and Stephen Neville, the leaders of the Lavender Islands surveys in New Zealand that gave us some of the first material that we had about ourselves. But again, the figures also tell us of the threats [00:22:00] of fear of unsafe places. Only 41% of the respondents in relationships and 27% of singles reported being out to everyone in their lives. I'm enjoying reading the work of David, um, on questioning, using queer theory to inform research and practise in public mental health services. I'm working with the Auckland District Health Board. Uh, in that that tension [00:22:30] between do we expect, um, gay, lesbian, trans intersex people to only be working with therapists who are like them. Um, because very often in our institutions, that kind of silo treatment is the norm. It's like sitting in the room waiting for everybody to speak up about human rights offences against us [00:23:00] and in the finish, knowing since you're the only one in the room, you're gonna have to do it again and yet again and yet again. And the TDM of that, uh, and David asking that question and then also asking the question. But isn't it the responsibility of everybody in an institution or service? And if that's the situation, how do we keep safe? Um It's been a long way from the Children's out of disciplinary the majority of my life. [00:23:30] I would not have believed this conference possible in a in safety and with dignity to see our lives begin to figure and research on teachers roles and queer discourse. Pedagogy and practise the experiences of gay mothers in early childhood education. Asking about how supportive union organisers are on the rights of queer workers talking about our challenges in Tonga, Thailand, Samoa, India, [00:24:00] Malaysia, the Philippines, Nepal, our stories having rainbows and uni uniform rainbows and sport focusing on our health and well-being and much of this now through what I call an appreciative inquiry approach rights based as opposed to a catalogue of deficit indicators. We are battling towards dignity and I hope we get there in my lifetime.

IRN: 364
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_mani_mitchell.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004173
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089467
TITLE: Mani Mitchell
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Mani Bruce Mitchell
INTERVIEWER: Jim Whitman
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Mani Bruce Mitchell; human rights; intersex
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Mani Mitchell from New Zealand talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Walking upstairs. You just told me about your experience during homosexual law reform. Would you like to say something about that again? Because, well, I've just turned 58. And while I don't think of myself as old at all, I am going back to homosexual law reform. And in this building, it wasn't as magnificent and as grand as it is in its restoration. Um, there was a would it have been some kind of gathering [00:00:30] here in the town hall, and the two protagonists of the anti were on stage, and I'm just remembering them both. So worked up and and literally spitting with rage against us. And in those days, our paradigms were somewhat more simplistic. I stood under the lesbian woman's flag. Um, with it being OK to talk in New Zealand, that ho homosexuals, as [00:01:00] we were all called then should be put on an island somewhere offshore and separated from the rest of New Zealand. And that was OK to do that in a public place. And what's more, one of these people was an elected MP. So to have come from that to the magnificence of town hall being taken over by this wonderful multiplicity of humanity. Um, and that's happened in my lifetime. [00:01:30] And your own pathway. Well, that journey from, um what people would have thought in those days, a lesbian, a butch lesbian. I had very short hair and sort of stomped around in heavy boots. And, um, boiler boiler sort of suit, as was the clothing of the day I. I mean, I. I think about it a lot. Now, I had tried to find a place of belonging, [00:02:00] and it was best fit at the time. And I realised if I said out loud to myself, I don't fit in this community. I didn't believe I fitted anywhere on planet Earth. So I I hung on somewhat uncomfortably to that place. And it would be for myself, personally, another 20 years before I would find the the space and the support of some pretty special people. Um, Doctor rodenberg, an out lesbian, one of those [00:02:30] people who supported my unfolding of self to reach a place where not only can I walk around town hall, I could say a dance here and feel very comfortable in my own skin and and finding a place of my own voice was trying to explain to someone before that as a younger person, I was very shy and unconfident, and it's almost like two different people. So this conference, [00:03:00] in some respects those that journey is a bit like the journey that many people have. I've gone through Oh, absolutely, as a as a representation of that. And as you were just sharing with me before, you know, people Wellingtons for the first time feeling like they they have a place. There's two things about that. How wonderful that is and isn't. It's so sad that it's taken so long, so many. [00:03:30] It's in my own case, you know, wasted years. And I just say that with some gentleness, it's a reality. And, um, Dear God, let's hope that the youth of today, you know, they continue this journey and take everything to somewhere completely different because it needs to Human rights is the is the sort of cornerstone. Um, have has your appreciation of human rights changed at all? [00:04:00] Um, so let's step back from myself. Until I started doing my own work and my own reclaiming, I wouldn't have even thought that I was entitled to rights. Certainly not how I experienced things as a child and as an adult. And now, of course, in terms of my out in public work, I was heavily involved behind the scenes in the human rights transgender inquiry here [00:04:30] and participated in it as well. Um, Joy, who was one of New Zealand's human rights commissioners, is a member of my trust, so I think human rights are a very important part of what we're doing. But as has been challenged a number of times at the conference, human rights are a very individual way of looking at the world and perhaps not a completely appropriate [00:05:00] way for people who come from a more inclusive family community, paradigm way of looking at the world. So, yes, it's a wonderful step forward. But I think there's some work for us to do to make human rights statements, um, taking those Carter principles that fit better with all of the planet, because at the moment, [00:05:30] quite clearly, some people feel uncomfortable that they don't speak to them. And, you know, I think that's what this gathering this conference is about. It's not a bad thing. This whole thing is evolution, as I say, all those years ago when we were here in the the City Hall, we would have divided ourselves as a binary men and women. And we would have said that sexual orientation was what, Gay lesbian? That's as far as it went. You know, our [00:06:00] diversity rainbow. All those letters are so much longer now and appropriately they should be. And I think we're going to come back to some kind of umbrella term that includes all of us. I were quite conscious of the fact that some human rights work, um, makes better that the damage done by what what countries have been forced to import. Really, you turn the clock back, [00:06:30] and there's still the same people who might have been there before Christian or before a criminal. It's a very, um, Western, um, Eurocentric paradigm. And and I've wondered somewhat recently, I My genetic ancestry is, uh, Scotland and Ireland and and I wonder, what were my people's beliefs [00:07:00] and systems before the arrival of Christianity and the Roman army? So II I think perhaps it is, as as we examine and have these opportunities to examine that we will. We will end up with something that is much more reflective of the diversity of planet earth and perhaps the privileged way of looking at humanity that is dominated for the last 200 years, at least anyway. The way things have gone in [00:07:30] India, it sounded like the cornerstone is neither gender nor sexuality but sensuality. I wouldn't have put it like that, but I think that that's a very elegant and encapsulation of what we heard this morning with that wonderful presentation news that would lead, perhaps to an umbrella. Yeah, absolutely. And and I think that's that's why I feel so excited. [00:08:00] And, um, I'm I'm very tired this afternoon. I haven't had the chance to sit and reflect. But I, I suspect that my sense is that this will be one of those, um, pivotal turning point gatherings and and and our evolution. Certainly people who have not really had that much to do with each other have sat and listened to stories of oppression. Really, The common [00:08:30] one of the themes is oppression. So just two things I think the the the um, the power of story stories from the heart authenticity, and I think the other thing that's happened and it's happened thanks to the generosity of the Dutch government, and and I believe some of the money has also come from America. That's enabled, um, voices to be here that so easily [00:09:00] could not have been here. And I think that that's part of the challenge. And there will be New Zealand voices that aren't here. That should have been here. Um, people from rural New Zealand, people from the disabled, people who are on benefits. So I think as we move forward, we absolutely need to think about how do we ensure that there are as many voices as possible at the table? That's not a criticism, because what is here is wonderful. I [00:09:30] just think you know that there's been a very high, um, benchmark set with this wonderful gathering. So it's in Copenhagen. Is that right? The next? Yes, there's another couple of big events and I think it's up to all of us to distil what's happened here and and and then build on that. Certainly a young man said to me that it was the diversity here, which was [00:10:00] the biggest message for him, that that which is perhaps reflects something of what you just said, that, um, you know, let's it's cultural diversity. There's a AAA wonderful diversity of age. I've really noticed that from youth to older people, um, of physical abilities. Um, someone said this morning that the one community that's probably not represented here is the deaf community, which, and I'm sure [00:10:30] there are others. So, you know, we haven't achieved perfection. There are groups that have that are not here for all kinds of reasons, but, yes, our our rainbow flag here is certainly a very multifaceted one. And that's wonderful. Looking ahead at two levels, one taking stuff away that you'll say work with Is there something? [00:11:00] And then the other thing is personal. Taking something away in particular that you well, I think one of the personally wonderful things for me is for many years I needed to leave Wellington to get my bucket nourished by people who saw the world in a similar way or not. So because that's not true. I've always had friends here, but people lived experiences were similar to mine. So to have the opportunity [00:11:30] to, um invite and have some of those people here in my city, my home and of course, as a result of the last week. Um, my email address book will be much larger than it was prior to this, you know? And that will be contacts back to Europe. India. Um, I was talking to a a Korean man earlier, and I think that's what comes [00:12:00] out of conferences like this, that the networking, the growing the and so one of the things that's going on, we are moving towards critical mass because individually, we can only do so much so yes, I. I feel like my professional and personal buckets have been actually at the moment the water is slopping over the top over full. What [00:12:30] an extraordinary reality that is.

IRN: 363
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_lynne_hillier.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004172
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089466
TITLE: Lynne Hillier
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Lynne Hillier
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Australia; Lynne Hillier; Wellington Town Hall; human rights
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Lynne Hillier from Australia talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So I'm an associate professor at the Australian Research Centre in Sex Health and Society. I came to the conference because I had things to say, and there were a whole lot of things that I wanted to find out about. What were the things you wanted to say? Well, I've just completed a third national survey of the sexual health and well being of same sex attracted and gender questioning young people, and they happened six years apart. [00:00:30] And in this one we had over 3000 young people. And, um, and my colleague Anne Mitchell and I were coming to talk about the dissemination research translation research into policy model that we use in Victoria, which we have used at each one of these writing themselves in to lobby government and to try to work for change in the community. What are some of the issues when dealing with surveying young people about their sexuality? Well, [00:01:00] when we did the first survey, I mean, we knew that those young people were out there because they had ticked a box in a previous general population survey to say they weren't opposite sex attracted, and we knew that they were doing it hard in some ways had high rates of STI and drug use, but they'd been in our research. But there is no way they would be in our come to our qualitative focus group come out. Say they were gay. We knew in a way they were being, [00:01:30] um, anonymous for their own safety. And so, as a researcher, the challenge of doing research with young people like that is to do no harm to not, um So how do you How do you do research with young people who are basically hiding for their own safety? And the answer was, Well, look, it was 1998 and we set up a website and did the first survey on the Internet, which was quite amazing for the time we had [00:02:00] to jump through hoops for ethics. And and so what we tried to do was to give them as many options as possible for filling out the research so that they could choose the one that was safest for them. And they did. And these wonderful 749 young people were part of the research, and we just we discovered that, um, over half of them were being abused because of their sexuality, that there were a whole lot of things going on for them and that having this data [00:02:30] one in five had never spoken to anyone about the sexuality. So having this data was just such a responsibility. We couldn't let these young people do so much for the research and not do something with the research. What age group are we talking about? 14 to 21. And how did you actually get them involved in the survey? How did you publicise it? Look, we actually advertised in Dolly magazine. Believe it or not, we were told by young people that this was a place, especially [00:03:00] that we would find the young men and we advertised in magazines. And there weren't many networks at the time, radio was good. Triple J did a programme with us, so we just sort of went wherever we could. The whole thing was unknown. We had no idea how many young people would be part of it. Or young people were just incredible. And they continue to be. I've never been in research where I have the participants say thank you so much for the research. Thanks for [00:03:30] listening. You know, here's my diary that I've been writing on the Net. You know, if I can help, Here's my email. Like, amazing. Such goodwill. And is it is that thanks because somebody is actually taking an interest. Somebody's listening. Or is it looking? Are they looking at the results of the information or is it just that immediate? Actually, somebody cares. I think in the beginning it was someone was listening for the one in five who had never spoken to anyone. You know, they got something off their chest. [00:04:00] But now there is an absolute expectation that the research has its own reputation, and there is an absolute expectation that this research will be used for change. Are there examples of that change? There are. And once again, my colleague Anne Mitchell is the community liaison officer and director of gay and lesbian Health in Victoria. And, well, where do I start? We lobbied and lobbied and lobbied [00:04:30] and lobbied the Victorian Education department slowly but surely, making contacts, finding champions within. We now have the bullying code of conduct safety in schools conduct. Chapter 14 is about homophobic abuse, includes the research in it and what the department expects. We have a supporting sexual diversity in schools. Booklet sent to every principal in every primary and secondary government school in Victoria, which talks about the research. Human rights. What's expected [00:05:00] of teachers. The research is in Suicide Prevention Australia Position statement. It is we have we milk it, we use it. We we work out what the story of the research is, and we take it and use it. Many, many newspaper articles probably been half a dozen full page articles in the age in the last 12 months. Yes, people. The community in a lot of ways, has taken it up as an issue. [00:05:30] Will this be ongoing research? Will there be another survey that comes out in a few years time? Well, look, I've been at it for 17 years, and I'm getting a bit long in the tooth. This time. When we decided to do the third piece of research, we engaged a whole lot of young researchers, two of Annes and my PhD students, a clinical masters in psychology and student, quite a few young [00:06:00] people to try to make sure that we had succession planning happening. I don't think I'll be there for the next one, but I hope it happens. You just have to set it up as best you can. I mean, when we did the first one, we didn't know there'd be a second. It's just something that evolved. Can you see changes in those three surveys? Are there marked changes in attitudes and behaviours? There are amazing trends, I have to say. When I think of the young people in the first survey, [00:06:30] I think of young people who were fearful who were protecting themselves, who were licking their wounds. When I think of the young people in 2010, they're out proud. They're bolshy, you know. In the 1st 11 person out of 749 talked about having a child. The rest had bought into those beliefs that you're going to be all miserable, lonely, you know, your parents won't have grandchildren. It's all your fault. Um, by 2004, they were talking about having kids with the help of their best friend sperm, and [00:07:00] by 2010, they're having relationships. They're having kids and they're going to get married, and they don't care what the government says. They're gonna have it. So that's quite incredible. Young people in 2010 are able to be gay and a Christian now, whereas before they had to choose and it caused them huge problems, They're much more likely to be activists. They're, um, uh, speaking out, much more likely to have spoken to someone. So one in five hadn't in 1998 1 in 40 hadn't in 2010. [00:07:30] So they're out. They feel better about their sexuality than they did in the past. Um, and because they're more likely to be out, they're more likely to get support. Although there is a gap. So yes, lots of differences. But homophobic abuse is up and in school, so school is still a dreadful place. No matter how hard we try, we just have to keep at it. We've got policies. We've got all sorts of things happening. We just We now have a safe [00:08:00] schools coalition that's been set up in Victoria where schools can join, and we just have to keep pushing, but lots of really positive findings, but also the big struggle around homophobia. You know, the fight is on, like in that plenary this morning, talking about Gandhi's phases of change. We're on to the third one fight, which is just before the win. Can you just, uh, run through those those stages? Um [00:08:30] denial, laughter, fight and then win? Yeah, something like that. But certainly the fight. I mean, it's on for young and old at the moment, I think, in schools with these young people, what do you think some ways of fighting that fight are? I think the discourse is incredibly important. We have homophobic discourse which is used to abuse young people. You know, you're evil, you're sinful. God hates you. You're mentally ill. [00:09:00] You're a freak. You're a monster. You're not normal. It's a phase. You're going to be miserable, Lonely. Many of those beliefs were created by our most powerful institutions. Our most revered powerful institutions created this dreadful homophobia and the beliefs. And although most of them recanted, the beliefs are still floating around in the ethos, and they're used to abuse young people. So, you know, the default homophobia is the default, I think, and so [00:09:30] education is everything, and I think the whole community needs to be educated we have to. I guess it's unpacking those beliefs. And of course you know 1998 only one thinks that she can have a child. And by 2010, that belief is just a joke. Now the belief that you can't have Children and so on so they can. We know. We know change can happen. So I think working on the discourses and education is incredibly important. Schools are important. [00:10:00] Parents are important because they hold such power. There's such fear about a parental backlash. But now we have rainbow families and same sex parents, families, and so those parents have power as well. So I think that that's an absolute way to go forward. I think using the research, just taking it up there, thinking about rights and responsibilities of society and what's happening to our young people. And I think also the idea that homophobia doesn't just [00:10:30] affect same sex attracted kids. You know, it impacts on everyone, and every year or second year we go down to this Boys Catholic school in Geelong, ST Joseph's, and we talk to his whole staff of 120 about what's happening with the research, and he says Paul. Tobias is his name. He says. If you get rid of homophobia, your academic records results will soar. That's his belief. So you know, that's another angle. You know, [00:11:00] if everyone's feeling happier and safer, they'll do better. On a personal level. How has this research and the work over the last 17 years affected you? Oh, it's affected me enormously. Um, I'm a lesbian. Um, and I've been in a relationship for 28 years. Um and I guess for me there was always the feeling that I wanted to [00:11:30] make a difference. And, um, I feel really privileged to happened to have been in the space at the time when this needed to be done to be at a place like archers which just, you know, so promotes social justice. Having that contact with these young people who have totally inspired me, I mean, I just I don't like to use a religious word, but I do. I feel blessed that I have had the opportunity [00:12:00] to be involved in this research for these number of years. How lucky am I to be doing something I'm passionate about as a job? So it's had a huge impact. Yeah, and something like this conference. What does What does this kind of conference do for you? It takes me out of my comfort zone a bit. I love the difference. The diversity that's here. I love the way we're all here together, [00:12:30] doing important things, coalescing, lobbying together. But we're different and so to be able to be working together. But have your differences recognised, which I think this conference has done more successfully than any I've been to. So I've learned so much and I've loved it. The Plenaries have just been fabulous. Everyone's been catered for, I think. Can you pick out one or two examples [00:13:00] of of things that you will take away from this? Um, the plenaries in particular have been incredible. The Samoan, the Australian indigenous, the Maori speakers talking about their own cultures and the way things were made invisible the way they were colonised. I think that's really important to always remember. But I think probably most [00:13:30] of all, I'll take the really the good feeling of being here, and that we are getting stronger and closer to the change that we all want so desperately. If someone was listening to this in 30 years time. Is this something that you would say to them? I, I would say I really hope that, um, that as a community, [00:14:00] we've got it together that we that you in 30 years time who's listening to this are living in a community where schools are safe for same sex attracted young people, where homophobia is a thing of the past, where the quality of the community is judged by its embracing of diversity in 30 years, I hope.

IRN: 362
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_lex_davis.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004171
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089465
TITLE: Lex Davis
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Lex Davis
INTERVIEWER: Jim Whitman
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Lex Davis; Post Primary Teachers Association (PPTA); Wellington Town Hall; human rights; teacher
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Lex Davis from New Zealand talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Could you tell me your name? I'm Lex Davis, and you're involved with a, um, a union. A trade union? That's right. Yeah. Um, I'm a secondary school teacher, so I'm involved with the New Zealand PPD A. And they have a rainbow task force, which is part of the safe school for Queer Network. You were mentioning the diversity here just before it's Yeah, it's incredible. Um, so many times you hear the word diversity, but I mean to [00:00:30] to look at the auditorium to look at the workshops. Even there's an incredible range of people. Um, it's it's it's been amazing, actually, uh, it's been very moving just because I know I know these things are about telling our stories and and our journeys, but, uh, from from the keynote speakers right through to the workshops, that's that's so that come so powerfully through the the narratives, Um, [00:01:00] just to share them and to to, you know, to express them. For some people, even just to say it out loud, I mean is would be forbidden from where they come from. So their act of being here is so poli political in itself that it's it's all inspiring what's been your journey? What brought you to an almost an unlikely place? Our human rights conference? It's not on many people's beaten track, is it? No. [00:01:30] No, it's, um II. I feel very, very privileged that, uh, as part of a country, I'm very proud to be a New Zealander at this conference. Um, but part of a country and and of of a trade union that really supports, uh, queer people. Um I mean, and first of all, there's, you know, the extending of of hands of help to say, Well, you know, you're not You're not, uh, you're not the only gay teacher as [00:02:00] I know, but I mean to network with others and to to be proud of it and and try and help others. Um, I've caught up with people from Australian teacher unions as well, so I mean, it's it's really powerful. And then, pat, it's a my identity is, you know, as as someone who's queer and someone who's a teacher. Um, the learning stream has been particularly positive for that. [00:02:30] Is there any one thing that's been astounding? It sounds all pretty good. Astounding thing for me is that people can stand in front of strangers, ostensibly people they've never met before. And they share such personal journeys. Uh, there's no pretence. There's no there's no wars. There's no hesitation. Um, for example, um, [00:03:00] who was the Aboriginal lady today? She was, uh I mean, it's raw, it's complete raw experiences, and it's privileged that there is that level of trust. I don't think you'll find that there are many conferences. There's real intimacy, Uh, and yeah, and it comes from a shared, shared hardship. Or, you know, um, I guess part of that is part of that sharing is is the [00:03:30] the healing and the and sharing the burden as well. And, I mean, I feel very privileged to be able to be part of that. What would you take away? Is there an agenda for you about teaching, for instance? Um, I think as an educator is, um, there is an obligation, uh, to, especially in terms of visibility, I think a lot of the learning stream [00:04:00] it has been about talking about journey and visibility. And I think, as you know, as a single person, you know, I can make the biggest difference by being visible, and that's before anything else that you know, it's bubbling in my head about creating more networks or creating groups. I think that's the the easiest thing for me to do. And personally, that's some. Perhaps your work is personal [00:04:30] as well. Is there anything that's purely to do with yourself that you'll take away that you'll want to see to do? Um, I'm of European and Maori Um, descent, Um, and personally, I would, I mean to the the The term is is very powerful. Um, because that is we are all [00:05:00] have a multiplicity of identities and belonging, but it is particularly relevant for me. I feel very strongly about, uh, Maori and to our Maori, the world of So that, personally is is going to be part of my journey is to, you know, get more involved with groups back in Auckland. Yeah.

IRN: 361
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_khartini_slamah_2.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004170
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089464
TITLE: Khartini Slamah (2)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Khartini Slamah
INTERVIEWER: Jim Whitman
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Khartini Slamah; Malaysia; human rights; sex work
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Khartini Slamah from Malaysia talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Kartini. Uh, I come from, uh, Islam. I'm from Malaysia. I work with the Asia Pacific Network of Sex Workers. I'm also the founder of the Asia Pacific Transgender Network. So in terms of my work or my organisation, we work with sex workers That is male, female and transgender in Asia and the Pacific. So that is my work, you know? So, uh, what we do is that normally [00:00:30] is we do more advocacy work advocating for rights of sex workers, uh, under Asia in the past week, we work. Uh, we have 21 focal points. Uh, in Asia Pacific. Uh, that is what it is We we do provide, uh, training, uh, skills, skills for our work. And we are, uh, what they call potential new leaders their skills [00:01:00] to speak for themselves rather than someone speak on their behalf. So that is what we normally do. So and a lot of the advocacy is focusing on saying that workers work. Yeah, we also talk talking about rights, uh, to treatment, health there, and, uh, right to education, housing, and many other rights. So I think a lot of sex workers are demanding for equal rights, not special [00:01:30] rights. You know, like any other citizen. So that is what we demand for. Does that right? Include privacy? Yeah. Yeah, because, uh, because when you talk about right, this include right of privacy. Because But sometimes when you are sex workers, uh, you know, it's very difficult. You know, a lot of people try to harass you if they know that you are sex workers. Sometimes it's very difficult, you know, sometimes to be yourself. Yeah, it's difficult, because when someone knows [00:02:00] that you are sex workers, they tend to bully you. They tend to use it against you. Yeah. So that is why when you talk about your privacy, I mean, even if you are, uh, ex sex workers, if you want to find another job, you find difficult because people tend to use your past life against you. Yeah. So for sex workers, it's not an easy life, but because of the stigma and discrimination, or day to day, we become tough. We sex workers need to be tough. You know, [00:02:30] in our life, like myself, being a transgender is a double stigma. Uh, being transgender is already a stigma and being a sex work is another. So we need to be tough because of how people treated us, the public, or even in our families, make us, you know, be need to be tough. That is why sometimes we are fast in terms of why our challenge is very aggressive. It is not because the way how people treated us make we behave in such a way. [00:03:00] Yes. And do you think that sex workers have always had this problem irrespective of the effects of, um, you know, occupying countries historical time? Yeah. I mean, if you talk about sex work, Yeah, it is the oldest profession when you talk about sex work, and if you look I mean every country, they are sex workers, you know, a Muslim country. Also, they are [00:03:30] sex workers, but a lot of countries doesn't acknowledge the existence of sex workers, you know, And and as I said, because you come from a Muslim country, there's no sex workers. A lot of them are still in the denial stage. Yeah, but in reality, we know the sex workers exist. So where I come from from a Muslim country, That's why when you talk about legalisation, it's just like if you advocate for legalisation, it's like digging your own grave. Yeah, it's not easy. I think it is the same. Also in a conservative Christian [00:04:00] country. It's the same, you know. It's no different than a Muslim country. So when you talk about legalisation now, I don't. There are many countries around the world which is not legalising. That is why now we are more talking about decriminalisation in terms of sex work. Yeah, so there's no positive rights that associate what you do with protections. It's just decriminalised. And then you still have to take your look. Yeah, that is why when again today [00:04:30] that you know, when I went to one of the sessions talking about the the principle, Yeah, talking about right, Yeah, That's why when I brought up the issue of It's not easy where you come from from a Muslim country advocating for these rights, especially the LGBT thing. Yeah, because, like where I come from, like Malaysia, we have two law, the law and the Sharia Law. So being an activist is not easy. That's why, as I said, you know, might be you can on [00:05:00] the civil law, but not on the Sharia because, like where I come from is, uh you know, the Sharia law. Uh, all the law is on the Sharia thing. You know, the kind of thing. It is very difficult. So I don't think that is as I said, for us to advocate further might take times. I don't know how long it will take. It's not easy. The Sharia law is the more scope for people off the streets to take the law into their own hands. You see, that's why I said, I do not question [00:05:30] the Koran. I question the people who interpret interpret the had, You know, this is in the individual interpretation of the I don't question the the Bible or the Koran. Yeah, because it's clear. But again, when you talk about religion, how what do you call people use religion against a particular community, for example, like the transgender, they use that to oppress the transgender. But again, when you talk about religion, it's always, you know, compassionate, caring. But that is not [00:06:00] being preached by right you are talking about, You know you should not discriminate people, but again, in reality, there are a lot of religious people who discriminate people like us, the transgender community or other communities. I think that should not happen, You know, for me, like, I believe that all transgender women do believe in faith in Islam or in Christian. But because of how the I mean discrimination, they tend to say [00:06:30] that, you know, transgender do not believe in religion. Why are they saying that? Assuming that we don't believe in religion. Yeah. Yes. So some deeply religious people workers as well? Yeah, that is what it is. All these moral issues, you know, So you don't get support from the religion as a religious sex worker? Yeah, even if they got their support is more of, uh, you know, trying to change us to save us. But the thing is that by saving us, it doesn't solve the whole problem. [00:07:00] You know, you might go hungry if you Yeah, that is why a lot of, uh, uh, organisation who try to save the sex workers. And again, you know, that is why when you talk about, uh, involving sex with a lot of donors trying to give a sewing machine trying to give us, uh what do you call, uh, beats hair dryers or what? We don't need that. Yeah, because why is only given all this thing? What we need is that, you know, uh, uh, the [00:07:30] law that criminalises us, You see, we don't need to be safe. We need to be safe from the police who misuse their power and the states or the clerics who just because of who we are, you know, that is, I mean, happening everywhere. And you did point out that that it's about your rights as a person, as a human being, [00:08:00] as a human being. But sometimes we are not being treated as a human being. You know, we are being treated like worse than animal, you know? I mean, that is why I mean I. I feel, you know, like, why are we being treated like that So bad? You see? And we are human being, you know, And your case for for sex work is one that you're a human being and two is that you do that for your living And that you [00:08:30] would hope that you would get medical care because you needed it. Um, like anybody else would. Yes, or or whatever other things that you need housing, housing, insurance, Um, jobs, employment, You know, any, like any other citizen. If they have the rights to everything, I think that we either sex workers, should have the same rights. I was at a session this morning about elderly lesbians [00:09:00] so it would apply to elderly. Perhaps, but they went through the yoy Carter principles and looked at specific principles that they felt applied particularly to them. Oddly enough, I mean, you mentioned housing and health. They also apply to you as well. Are there specific ones? Um, I mean, a right to justice, I would guess, and and access to the courts and all that sort of stuff even opinion, expression, or even organising, [00:09:30] you know, organising. Absolutely. Which, of course, is what's often denied workers who organise as well, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, even the transgender or to organise themselves because, like back home, uh, my experience before when we form up an organisation Yeah, they say that we were being banned from organising. They say that we are creating more of our species and in more involved work. But that is not our main objective. The [00:10:00] main objective of forming Association organisation was to bring all the transgender women together to understand what is our issues or problems in sharing that kind of things. But the perception of the religious people think that we are creating more. And I think we are trying to recruit more people, become a transgender, which is not true. You can't force someone to become who she does want to be. For example, you can't force someone to become a lesbian, to become gay [00:10:30] or to become a transgender. You can't. It is, you know, a natural bond in that person. So for me, you know where I come from again. You see, that's why when you talk about, it's a holistic thing. You need to look at this, uh, education system because it's not taught in school. Yeah, so a lot of, uh, parents cannot cope with their son who is different. That is why a lot of, uh, a lot of times when you see a parent seems to discriminate or even within the family, discriminate the [00:11:00] son who is different and again because the belief is always that, you know, it's always like, yeah, when you are a boy, you become a man. So there's no other gender, so it's very difficult sometimes when you you don't have a family support. Yeah, that is why also, Sometimes that's why the transgender women tend to be with, uh, safe to be with their own community. And they're involved in sex work because the job, uh, option is very limited, and people don't trust us with the job.

IRN: 2069
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_khartini_slamah_1.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004169
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089463
TITLE: Khartini Slamah (1)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Khartini Slamah
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Khartini Slamah; Malaysia; human rights; sex work
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Khartini Slamah from Malaysia talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I think the reason why I attend this conference is this is the first time you know where the opportunity for the Trans to meet. Yeah, especially when you talk about trans issues, is hardly being discussed in the Asia Pacific region. I've been attending the international conference, but this is the first one in Asia and the Pacific Focus on the transit issues. I presented a paper yesterday on the trans workers for the issues they face, especially when you talk about the trans [00:00:30] sex workers. You know, they also face like violence. They also face in terms of issues like health, police and many other authorities, especially from the religious side that they face daily in their life. So that is what when we present my paper yesterday and yesterday, it was an opportunity also for because for me, like the founder for the Asia Pacific Transgender Network, what I learned yesterday is to hear more [00:01:00] from the transform the Pacific, where we hardly could hear at conferences the transpacific coming to a conference. So it's an opportunity for me from what do you call the ASIC Transgender network to hear myself? The issues and concern are the issues from different countries very similar when it comes to trans issues, I think the issues is similar, even though when you talk about discrimination varies from one country to one countries, there are countries. When [00:01:30] you talk about like, for example, Cambodia, it might be worse because it's run by military, same as Fiji. So that way. As I said, discrimination varies from countries to countries, even though, like I come from Malaysia, which is a Muslim country again, the discrimination is different. So for me, like you know, to hear today the statement from our what do you call Human Rights commission from Malaysia? There's nothing much I could see the change, you know, when you talk about trans issues. I've been advocating for trans issues for almost [00:02:00] 23 years, so nothing much has been changed and again because you're always using the sensitivity of the religion first you know and everything. That is why, like in Malaysia, when you talk about, we have to face like you know, the civil law and the Sharia law. So it's very difficult to move in terms of making a change in Malaysia. So what are the main issues for trans people in Malaysia legal the legal recognition. That is what we face now [00:02:30] because transgender women or transgender men are not recognised. Yeah, because even though in the early eighties I could consider that they are recognised. But now I think Malaysia is moving backward. It's not moving forward until they are not recognising us, because again, we always are daily harassed by the relevant authorities. Either it's by the religious or by the police. Because I think in Malaysia [00:03:00] most of these transgender women are involved in sex work. So that is why the police is always after them. And because then again, because Malaysia we have what do you call, uh, sorry Sharia Law and the civil law. And again, the Sharia law is not uniform in Malaysia because each state is controlled by the sultan itself. So in terms of the enactment from state to state is different. So that's why it's very difficult for us to challenge anything at this moment. But [00:03:30] as we say, we are not giving up and we are challenging to make a change. Why is sex work and transgender so tied together in Malaysia? You see, because of, uh, limited options of job. Uh, and and that is why a lot of these transgender women involved in sex work and again because of, you know, not acceptance by the family. Yeah, and again by the society. Because it's a stereotype. They always think that, you know, once you are transgender [00:04:00] women, the best thing to give to the transgender is a sewing machine. We don't need a sewing machine. What we need is better than that. We can do like other people. What we what we demand is equal rights. Yeah, we don't demand for special rights. What we demand is equal rights like any other citizen in Malaysia. So if other citizens have that right, I think the transgender women also have rights saying that you want equal rights and saying it loudly, Does that put you in a in a difficult situation? [00:04:30] It can be, you know, putting myself in a difficult situation because of the perception of the society to assess, because they think that the transgender women is only a sex object. That's why you know they are involved in sex work. They gain the way of the media. Portraying the transgender is very negative. They never portrayed the positive side of transgender. And all this while transgender are being seen as like a low class person. Yeah, and I think that it's wrong. We [00:05:00] are, I mean, no difference from other people. So I think that we have the right right, like any other people. So how do you change the perception in Malaysia? There's a It's a long advocacy and ongoing advocacy because when you talk about, you know, to make a change, you need to create awareness to the public, not only about transition, even at school. You know, even if you look at the sex education in Malaysia, it's only talk about men and women. No other gender. So and again, you know, when [00:05:30] you talk about sex education, they only think about sex. They don't think about the whole what you call issues. You know, when you talk about sex education, I think that this is the wrong idea that they give impression to the public about the transgender community. Looking ahead, if somebody was listening to this tape in 30 years time, what? What would you like to say to them what I would like to say? Um, except transgender We are normal people. We are no different. What we demand is again. [00:06:00] As I said, we demand for equal rights and I wish to see that you know, transgender has been accepted by the society by the Malaysian people and we are the citizen of Malaysia. That's it.

IRN: 360
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_kestin_stewart.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004168
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089462
TITLE: Kestin Stewart
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Kestin Stewart
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Kestin Stewart; Rainbow Youth; human rights; transgender; youth
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Kestin Stewart from New Zealand talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um my name is Kirsten Stewart. I'm with the Rainbow Youth Board. I'm Secretary as well as being transgender rep. And I'm here with the rain beef people are supporting them and learning as much as I can while I'm here and, um, came down for the transgender Who yesterday, um, meeting people from all over the world. I've never met that many other trans guys from all over the world before, and it was amazing. Absolutely amazing. So what was discussed at the, um, a lot of things are mostly, yeah, human [00:00:30] rights, Basically, because that's still a very big deal for trans people and many countries. You can't get your gender recognised. You can't get access to, uh, hormones and transitioning and that you can't get that, you know, support even. And also not to mention huge amounts of violence being afflicted on trans people. Still, um, people being killed in some countries still over their gender expression, you know, and it's a very big issue for a lot of people. Still, So what [00:01:00] comparisons did you draw from the kind of transgender experience in New Zealand to that from overseas countries? And what countries were they represented in my own personal experience, I've had, um, very little issues with being a trans person. Um, I've had more issues for being an atheist personally, um, from other people. But, um, even though New Zealand is not perfect, you know, it's still, um you know, um, there's still a lot of people experiencing discrimination here, Um, and harassment. [00:01:30] But it's it's pretty good here still. Um, but, you know, that's also again, like it's a person by person basis. You know, um, you know, it's a lot different for someone who maybe doesn't pass. Well, you know, they experience things a lot differently. Um, but, you know, with our human rights laws that we have here, you know, we have Oh, it's still not. And actually in the, um there is protection in the human rights about over not being discriminated against for your sexuality [00:02:00] or sex, but it doesn't clearly state gender identity. And that's something that we've been that we're still fighting for. Um, but yeah, it's there is a lot of good things about being in New Zealand and being trans. That's perfect. So what were some of the things that, uh either, uh, took you back from from other experiences overseas, Um, stuff that I had already known about, um just, you know, you kind of network with a lot of people around the world just online. Um, [00:02:30] but it's still just it's heartbreaking to hear people's personal stories and what they've been through, um, you know, just people, you know, heard of people being sexually assaulted. Um, abused, um um, killed. You know, people I've met people who have friends have been killed for being transgender. You know, um, a big issue again is, um, not being able to go to law enforcement when those horrible things happen. Because sometimes it's the authorities [00:03:00] who are actually doing it, you know? And so, yeah, there are There are areas where it's going backwards. And that's, um that's that's a disturbing trend, you know, in some areas. Um, but yeah, I mean, one of the big one of the big problems is visibility and visibility for trans men, because, I mean, in the in a lot of I mean in many cultures, it's not even people don't even know there's a word for it. So, yeah, is, um a lot of there was a lot of [00:03:30] discussion around where you know can improve things. And and what were some of the outcomes in terms of, you know, what could be done? What? What what were some of the actions? Um, I wouldn't say there was necessarily, I guess, distinct outcomes. Because it was It's not. I can't really, I guess, um I don't think I'm in the right kind of place to be able to say that. I mean, I wasn't a leader of it or anything like that. I was just a participant, I guess, For you personally. What? What did you what? What are the big things [00:04:00] that you've taken away from the, Um, I just think that there's definitely that that very strong sense of community that's developing on an international level, like the connections that have been forged between various, um um, networks And, um is the the FTM. The trans men from, um around all the Asia Pacific who are feeling very isolated as activists because there is such that, um, that [00:04:30] that invisibility, um, there's definitely, um there are plans to, um, to create a FTM activist network for the Asia Pacific region. Um, but that's just in the very beginning stage. I mean, we just talked about it yesterday. Basically. So, um, we'll see how things develop. I guess. I imagine the role of technology and things like the Internet must just have a huge impact. It's huge, huge. I mean, I when I was first, um, I guess, um, questioning my gender identity. The first thing I did was google it. You know, [00:05:00] uh uh, that's because you don't see anything in in the media and in just daily life, you don't know what there is. And in New Zealand, I had to look for it, you know? So, yeah, So if we were looking, like 30 years ahead and somebody was listening back to this, is there anything that you would say to them? Or what would you say to them? It gets better, I guess. Going with the recent, um uh uh, video media. Um, [00:05:30] I would hope that it I would like to be able to say it did get better. You know it, um, you know, we have our human rights now, you know that's an issue. Not all Trans people have human rights because of law. You know, we people like I think it was, um, Thailand. Oh, no, no. Um, China, Um, where if you're transgender, you have no hope of getting married. Regardless of whether it's a male or female. You you want to marry because [00:06:00] you're transgender, you know, Whereas in like many cultures in many countries, if you transition to your desired gender, you can marry the opposite sex of what your gender is In a lot of places, you know, you can get your gender changed. Or you can still at least marry What would be considered your opposite sex. Yeah. Um, in 30 years time, I'd like to see this not be an issue at all to not even have to discuss it. You know, it would be some sort of, um oh, that's how it was in the old, you know, in the olden days, Like I was like, Oh, can you believe [00:06:30] that things were like that? You know, I guess. Yeah.

IRN: 359
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_ken_moala.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004167
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089461
TITLE: Ken Moala
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ken Moala
INTERVIEWER: Jim Whitman
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Australia; Ken Moala; Samoa; Wellington Town Hall; human rights
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Ken Moala from Samoa talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Ken Moala. Um, I'm originally from Samoa, and, um, my background to do with, um, gay and lesbian and transgender activism is that I am a, um co-founder of the Pacific Sexual Diversity Network, which started in 2007 in Samoa, and that reaches out to the countries of the Pacific. Um, promoting [00:00:30] a, um, men who of men transgender, um, and issues relating to, um, the communities, the different communities throughout the Pacific. Um, now, the reason why I'm here is actually I now reside in the Gold Coast in Australia. Um, I decided to come over and assist, uh, being a volunteer, but also to attend some of the sessions at the conference, [00:01:00] which I have particular interest. Um, what I had, actually, my impressions of the conference itself are quite varied. I think this is This is actually a a an historic moment in the in the fact that it's been able to bring Asia Pacific regions together on a more intimate, um, basis, Um, [00:01:30] before we used to turn conferences in, um, Australasia and and and further, a field in in Asia and the Pacific Representatives was very few and far between because of the fact of the geographical implications. Um, financial implications are just too far and too expensive to get to where the conference has been held. And I applaud the conference for [00:02:00] the initiative they've taken to identify funding to bring over participants from the Pacific because that has been one of the overwhelming challenges through travel and accommodation. Um, but more on on issues to do with human rights, it is really good to to share, um, various achievements and challenges on certain issues such as human rights throughout the [00:02:30] region. Now, um, it has been really inspiring to listen to to keynote speakers. And I compliment the organisers on on on identifying, um, excellent speakers from various and varied backgrounds and who have expertise in on the issues that they spoke about. Um, so I, I really commend, [00:03:00] um, the the conference organisers on on that account. Um, but we need to have some of the recommendations I have in mind is, uh, these are just suggestions. Um, you can do what you want with them, but I do believe, as was brought up by one of the keynote speakers this morning, that there needs to be equal representation throughout the region, from Asia, from Pacific from Australasia [00:03:30] to ensure that there is a balanced, um, perspective from the different regions in order to ensure that the the issues pertaining to those areas are well addressed and and aired in this open forum. Um, I have another recommendations which I feel is very important. There should be a continuation of this [00:04:00] human rights conference. Uh, I don't know what the future of the out games are there. They're looking for the next host country and also possibly to, um, move further field and amalgamate out games for the Gay Games, which which hopefully in 2018 this this occurs. But I'd like to suggest that there is a continuance of the Human Rights Conference irrespective [00:04:30] of the out games, um, mechanism, because we don't know exactly what the future is and if possible, they can be maybe, um, by annually maybe every two years that we hold conference. But it's important that the Asia Pacific region are constantly updated on what has been done with human rights in the respective countries. So that's that's one of my recommendations regarding the conference. [00:05:00] Um, there, there, there are also other issues. It it's good to come and get together and and and talk and discuss about these issues, but I'd like to see a bit more action done. You know, this conference ends up to be like a talk fest, and we need to address certain issues. Um, such as persecution of the authorities in certain [00:05:30] countries of the region. We need to be more proactive and and and and and in ensuring that there there is a continued activism of human rights throughout the region. And there needs to be a database also for a network to be, uh, set up. So we can actually, if we're not meeting at conferences, we can [00:06:00] be constant dialogue through through, um, through online, um, and other means of communication. But I think that that we need to share, you know, not see each other every two years or so, but constantly emailing information throughout and have one big database that we can actually share our our thoughts on the issue. It was an interesting discussion this morning. I don't know whether [00:06:30] you were there. I was there Pacific people saying, Well, a speaker saying, um, that there are half a dozen words at least, Or names at least, that people have for a range of approaches to sexuality, gender, spirituality, position in society. Um, can I ask how how you identify yourself? It depends what context that you're referring to. [00:07:00] Um, so as a as a as a sam or male man, um, I consider myself very much a, um that word is encompasses. Um uh, to me encompasses a lot. I don't dress up as a as a woman. Um, and like one speaker said before, I mean, you know, I don't look good and drag, [00:07:30] but I do embrace the the whole concept of it, uh, realising that in in Samoa or in other Polynesian countries, this is very much a cultural and a spiritual, uh, entity. Um, So in that in that in that, um uh, stance, I think we need to respect. Um, exactly. Well, I feel is very, very dear to my heart. Um, [00:08:00] so, yes, that's That's how I would look at it in that respect. Yes, that's a That's an important statement. It's attained a pro A prominence. Yes. Because of this morning. Moderation of the last couple of days. Yes, Well, it identifies who are We need to define ourselves in light of of of the world we live in, and especially with the gay world. I know there's a lot of, [00:08:30] um, definitions and a lot of groupings within with 11 big group. But I think each grouping deserves their own place in the sun, their own. And we need to respect that. Um, like, I was at a session with intersex. Personally, I have I have not, um, had a lot of experience with that, but just, um, attending that it actually made [00:09:00] me more aware of their situation. So we need to understand that sometimes we glibly state Oh, we're all gay. But we're not. There are different divisions. I mean, transgender, for instance. Um, that itself is is is quite complex in itself. This conference has brought people here. Yes. Do you think people believe what they read? Or do they need people to tell them straight to their [00:09:30] face? Definitely. Definitely. I mean, we're all proud of who we are. We're proud to be gay. We're proud to be lesbian. Uh, we need to actually assert this this pride and and and all our all our definitions and I think it's important to to ensure that we although we come under the one umbrella as one speaker said the under the rainbow, we need to to feel that we do belong in that sense. And this world is diverse [00:10:00] and and colourful and so we need to incorporate this and and ensure that everybody is is treated equally. So yes, yes, I feel this is very important. Great. Are you going to take any one thing away with you personally or in terms of your volunteer involvement? Oh, yes, Yes. II. I thought it was great to be a volunteer. Sometimes, as as a delegate, [00:10:30] you only see certain things. But I've seen a lot of things like I was at the the football soccer tournament and it was good to see the, um the different countries, the spirit of competitors was there. But overriding all that it was a camaraderie and and coming together the different, uh, areas. But it wasn't about winning. Everybody's a winner. It was just coming together and being a whole [00:11:00] spirit of unity that I sense in in that sort of field and volunteering, I think everybody should do that. It's it's not. You're actually giving back, um, to your community, and I want to thank the organisers for accepting it, because I I don't I don't live in Wellington, but I just felt that I was richly blessed by being part of of the, um, whole out games [00:11:30] and especially the conference. And it was just been a real joy. There's the three pillars that talked about, Um, I can't actually remember all of them, But there's the human rights And, yeah, there's the sort of, um, the recreational sporting Yes, um, they do seem to share those two. Yes, if you if you can be decent and together and share on the playing field, Well, there's there's to me. What I I have experienced, [00:12:00] uh, has been the the the recreation of the sports. There's been the social, um um aspect, and then with with With the conference has been the knowledge that's that's been shared. But there's also there's one thing II I really like to emphasise that needs to be the spiritual. You know, we can look after the physical and the mental, and but we need to look after the soul, and I think this is This is time, [00:12:30] You know that we need to have activities surrounding, you know, the whole emphasis. I know we talked about in some aspects of the, uh, the, uh the conference, but there also needs to be activities. Um, that that really looks into, um and this is what I am really interested in on a personal level. Such as? Well being, Um um, knowing your karma yoga, [00:13:00] Um, ensuring that that your whole attitude is right, so you can actually share this. And so these are one of my recommendations to to the games is to ensure that we cover all aspects of our being not just the social, the the recreation and, you know, your your head knowledge, but also our spiritual side of it.

IRN: 358
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_julie_douglas.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004166
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089460
TITLE: Julie Douglas and co
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Julie Douglas; Liz Robinson; Rob Haultain
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Julie Douglas; Liz Robinson; Rob Haultain; Wellington Town Hall; human rights; unions
DATE: 18 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Julie Douglas, Liz Robinson and Rob Haultain from New Zealand talk about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Ah, I'm Julie Douglas. I'm here because I'm part of the CTU out of work network. So I was really keen to come down. I'm Liz Robinson. I'm here as part of the out at work conference as well. And I'm a member of the national distribution union. And I'm Rob, and I'm a member of Service and Food Workers Union and part of the out at work network. The CD U out at Work Network. Yeah. So you've combined the conferences together this year? Yes. Yeah, that's right. I think it's fantastic. I think we're really lucky to be part of something this [00:00:30] big and this important. And, um, I'm really loving that we can bring, um, work rights into human rights and, um, do some really good work on that Here. Have the space to do it with people from other unions from other countries all around the Pacific. You say it's big and important. Why is it important? Um, I kind of didn't realise when I first came, but now I, um, the plenary session was talking about the importance of human rights and the work that we need to do globally and around the world. It's just sort of opened my eyes [00:01:00] to the the power that we have, Um uh, to make change and the power that we gain from coming together as, um LGBTI communities. Yeah. And I went to the out games, the the concurrent, um, human rights conference in Sydney in 2002. So I knew that it would combine really well, and it's fantastic because you get to be with your whole, which is just wonderful. But it [00:01:30] does really exemplify for me how, um well off we are in New Zealand, and, um, part of the thing that we've been thinking about as a as a workers, um, queer network is how we can support our sisters and brothers in the Pacific. And I think that being able to hear their stories and be with them, he has made it really clear to us that that's a piece of work that that we can do and that we really can support those people to achieve work rights and human rights in their home countries. So what have been some of the key [00:02:00] issues that have come up in terms of Pacific issues? Um, well, I think it depends on which Pacific country that you're talking about, But I think you know, for example, Fiji. There's just such a lack of every kind of freedom there. There's theoretical rights that people have enshrined in the law. That's left or new law that's been made by an unelected military junta. Basically. But, um, yeah, people aren't free to have a view or live their lives the way [00:02:30] that they want to live their lives. It's not. It doesn't feel safe to people to be out. Um and yeah, every assumption that we can take for granted in New Zealand. It doesn't. It doesn't seem as though people in Fiji, for example, can make any of those assumptions at all. Um, and another thing that's been really interesting to me that I hadn't thought about before, is that that whole, um, acceptance of some sort of mode of trans living [00:03:00] in Pacific culture that's accepted. But, um, ordinary queerness is not so. It's OK to be Trans, but it's not OK to be lesbian. For example, I hadn't I hadn't had that awareness and hadn't thought about that and what that would what that means. So yeah, that's a good bit of learning I've had. Has there been anything in the conference that's challenged your thoughts or your ideas? Yeah, I think I need to reflect. I think, um, the things that have challenged me are, um [00:03:30] maybe realising that, um, just because we're all a LGBTI communities, there's still oppressions and discriminations within our community that we need to work on. Like what? Uh, like, I think, um, we're not all on the same page about, um um, some some people don't accept, um, trans men as as, um, as men. Some people don't accept trans women as women. And, um, it's been confronting [00:04:00] to me to hear that in this forum. Yeah, Yeah, I was just, um because Julie's only been here for a short time. I was talking to her last night about some of the stuff that's come up over the time that we've been here and there. It has been challenging for me to to see how some of the stuff that we had arguments about 30 years ago is here again. But in relation to another group of people. So yeah, and the we had some young people come in our lesbian [00:04:30] forum who were like, how dare you stick the label of lesbian on me. And we were, like, 30 40 years ago. We fought really hard to reclaim that title and wear it proudly. And, um, we're not, actually, you know, you can claim it if you want, but you don't have to have it so that yeah, that was an interesting how some issues stay the same. And the importance of bringing young, queer folk and old queer folk together and having those conversations and yeah, sharing each [00:05:00] other's stories and realities has been really great for me. Yeah, What about the the the work side of things and the union side of things Has that kind of come up a lot in the conference? It has. There's been a whole work, ma stream of concurrent sessions, So yeah, every every hour of every time that we've been here, we've been talking about how work rights and union rights um are, you know, in in linked with human rights and, um, with with the work [00:05:30] that we need to do Yeah and I, I guess another thing that it hasn't been confronting, but it's definitely a piece of work that we need to get on and do is to have a more structured, um, diversity training and awareness programme within unions because, um, a lot of us hang out as a queer union group as well. So we all support each other, and we know what we know how to support each other and what's going on. But lots of people don't. So [00:06:00] I think that's a piece of work that we'll do is to really highlight diversity within the union now and encourage people to be, um, specifically conscious of queer Union members and how to make union spaces queer friendly spaces as well. Yeah, So what do you think you'll take out of this conference ideas about how to move forward and do some work. I think this is a big year for New Zealand, and I think with the political [00:06:30] environment, I think that the queer community is under threat again, and I think we need to mobilise and get people aware of that. I agree. But Julie, we absolutely do. This is time to go with ideas and actions. Yeah, um, really pushing that awareness about what the current government's regime means for queer people and emphasising that to our community is critical. And it's obvious to me that not [00:07:00] everyone has quite figured that out yet. So, yeah, that's a really important conversation to have with a lot of people right now. Can you recall what Marilyn Waring was saying about, um was it a John Key quote? Can you recall that quote? Um, about how we were lucky that he hasn't, um that the national, the national government's been good to queer people because they haven't rolled back any of the gains that we've made. Yeah. Yeah, I'm really pleased I missed that. Well, you know, the the first [00:07:30] reaction that that provoked to me when I heard it the first time when he was at the big Gay Out was a lot of swearing words, which I've been not put in the leg archive, but yeah, that's I mean, that was a good thing for her to raise. And it's an important conversation for us to have with people about. And that's actually one of the things. There's been quite a lot of discussion in a number of workshops, Um, that I've been in about, um how civil union and marriage [00:08:00] are not the same thing and we got second best. And I think that's been quite not confronting to me because I was always very happy with an uncivil union. But, um but, um, you know, um, it has been confronting for a lot of people. They I don't think that people had thought about the fact that the civil Union legislation was second best, that it's not as good. Um, in terms of the status that you have for your relationship as marriage. And, um yeah, and there's a lot more work left to do and yeah, [00:08:30] thanks, John Key, but no thanks. OK, final question. If somebody is listening to this in 30 years time, what would you like to say to them? I hope we made a difference. I hope it's worked out in the 30 years from now. Hope you're having fun. Yeah. Hello. How exciting. I hope that I get to meet you because I'm pretty sure I'll still be here in 30 years time. And, um yeah, that you'll be coming along to a lesbian caucus and I'll be even older. And I might [00:09:00] even get to win the race. We did a queer continuum. Um, in one of our workshops where, you know, the person who came out the longest to ago was at one end, and the person who came out yesterday was at the other and fabulous woman Prue Hyman, um, less famous lesbian Wellington woman. She won that she'd been out 46 years, so, yeah, I could be at the head of the continuum in 30 years time, but I'm not competitive.

IRN: 304
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_john_fisher_keynote.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004130
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089424
TITLE: John Fisher - AsiaPacific Outgames
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: John Fisher
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); John Fisher; Rosslyn Noonan; Wellington Town Hall; Yogyakarta Principles (2006); human rights; law; transcript online
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast John Fisher delivers a keynote presentation. John is introduced by Rosslyn Noonan.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, it's a great privilege and honour for me to be here and to be part of this closing session. And I just want to, um say, however, that, uh, Barry is an incredibly difficult act to follow as a chair I've seldom found heard anyone [00:00:30] that was so witty and focused and had such edge and such style and such energy, um as he has. And, uh uh, I I And this conference is clearly an enormous, um, reflection of all of those things as well as all of the many people who have worked to support it and make it happen. And I have to say that I've [00:01:00] been getting, you know, the odd text from people because I had to return to new to Auckland on on Wednesday. And really, I don't I've seldom felt such energy and enthusiasm from a conference, certainly not in the last decade. And so, um, I think out of this will come the next sort of level of transformation in different ways in all of our societies. And, um and I know that that energy that [00:01:30] you have generated coming together and the things that you've learned from each other will actually benefit those well beyond this room and this place. So it's it's really fantastic just to be a small part of it. Now, what we've we've got for this final plenary session, um, is a keynote speech from, uh, John Fisher, and I'll introduce him in a minute. And then we've got, uh, commentary from three people, and I'll introduce them when [00:02:00] we get to them, and then the rest of the session is open to you so that we can actually have some engagement and comment and and discussion. So I have, um, told John that I will be waving at him quite, you know, obviously after 20 minutes. So he knows he only got 25 after that, so that there will be time for others to contribute from the floor. Because one of the things that is extraordinary, um, about this conference is the rich diversity. [00:02:30] Um, that's represented here in so many different ways. And I know people have also said to me the one frustration of the conference has been that they could only go to one session at a time. And there are always sessions in the other streams that they'd love to have equally been out at. So this is a bit of an opportunity to share just some of the, um the treasures from right across the conference before we finally close with our at 3. 30. So I won't say [00:03:00] anymore. But just to briefly introduce John Fisher, Uh, who is co-director of a RC International, a project driven organisation which advances lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender rights internationally. Originally, uh, John is from New Zealand, and we've just sort of started to reclaim him. Um, those of us who've just discovered him recently Um, he certainly adds to our mana internationally. I have to say, [00:03:30] um, he has a B a and llB honours. Um spent two years as a judge's clerk and moved to Canada in 1991 where he completed an LLLLM thesis on lesbian and gay rights and international law at Queen's University. In 1992 he was the founding executive director of of, uh Canada, Canada's National LGBT Equality Organisation. In a position which he held from 1994 to 2002, he participated [00:04:00] in the United Nations World Conference on Human Rights in Vienna in 1993 where he became the first openly gay person to address the UN World Conference. And actually, you know, as a New Zealander again claiming you as a New Zealander rather than a Canadian At that point, um, I think that there's something special about that and similarly, uh, just about four years ago, Uh, [00:04:30] during the negotiations for the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, Um, a New Zealand leader of People First, which is the organisation that represents people with an intellectual disability. Um was the first person with an intellectual disability to speak at the United Nations in New York. And I think these are all really, um, precious symbols of a more inclusive, um, and [00:05:00] participatory process, um, at the international level, um, and which you know which we need to treasure, but also to build on, because I think there's often a lot of criticism of the United Nations as if it's some esoteric body out there. Actually, it's made up of all our states, and what actually happens there depends on what our governments decide should happen there. But it's increasingly ordinary people from the world around the world. Civil society, members of civil society [00:05:30] and activists are able to have a voice and we need to build on those, um, as as John, uh, you know, did In 1993 in 2004, he relocated to Geneva as the a R CS representative to better facilitate NGO engagement with the United Nations human rights mechanisms. And I think those of you who have been following, um, the campaign on the statement, uh, will have [00:06:00] a tiny taste of just how effective he is. Um, in organising, uh, at that level, he's been involved in both the institutional building and the substantive work of the Human Rights Council since its inception. And and I can certainly, um a affirm the extent to which he's developed extraordinarily, um, positive relationships with states with NGO S with the special procedures treaty body members with the, uh, UN personnel [00:06:30] and others, and, uh, and and works actively to connect human rights defenders around the world. So on that, John, welcome. It's great to have you here. It's yours. It's good to be home. [00:07:00] One of the hardest decisions of my life was leaving New Zealand to work internationally, but here today, at this conference I've never felt more at home and more amongst the the brothers and sisters of my country and and of the Asia Pacific region. And I trust that you all feel as invigorated as I do to feel part of this great and to be able to participate in this amazing event. So kudos to the organisers. [00:07:30] There have been many highlights of this conference, but before going any further, one I want to mention is the the trans and intersex that took place on Tuesday. Congratulations to Jack for making it happen. And to all of the people who participated, I myself felt so immensely privileged to be able to to feel so welcome in that space and and honestly, for me, it was one of the most thought provoking [00:08:00] and enriching experiences of my life. Uh, and that's something that I will take away from this conference and and keep with me forever. At times like this, it's natural to reflect a little bit on how far we've come and some of the challenges that still lie ahead and because I believe very strongly that the personal is political. There are many times in this room over the last few days when I've been taken back to the Times when I was growing up in New Zealand, when homosexuality was still a criminal offence. And like many of you I, [00:08:30] I, uh, grew up during during that period, uh, very much feeling that as a as a teenager, I was the only one, struggling to come to terms with my sexuality at a time when all of the media portrayals were were negative. Uh, and even worse, I believed the social messages that homosexuals were sick, disgusting and wrong. And I clearly remember the day when homosexual law reform went through in New Zealand. Uh, I was still in the closet. I hadn't told another living soul, uh, that I was gay. I was walking [00:09:00] to, uh uh, to university and on every corner in the, uh, in the stores in the, uh, in the newspaper stands, the the main headline was homosexuality. Decriminalised. There was nobody else I could talk to about this, but I read those those banner headlines, Uh, and for just a moment, the sun had happened, came through the clouds, and it felt to me as if a weight had been lifted from my shoulders from my shoulders. And for the first time in my life, I could stand on the soil of the country that I loved so much and feel [00:09:30] that I belonged. And I knew then that there was nothing wrong with me, nothing that needed to be changed. What was wrong and needed to be changed was the attitudes of society that could have made me feel the way that I did. Much has changed since then, and, uh, and much like our own personal struggles work to advance lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and sex rights at the United Nations is a long and slow and and challenging process. Uh, GTA reminded us yesterday of the of the Gandhi [00:10:00] quote. First they ignore you, then they laugh at you. Then they fight you and then you win. And certainly at the international level and in our countries around the world, we've long been ignored. We've long felt the stigma of invisibility and silence. We've sustained the ridicule of being laughed at. We've certainly felt the backlash of being fought against, but gradually, bit by bit, I believe that change is coming and that we are winning. Rosin mentioned the World Conference on Human Rights [00:10:30] in Vienna in 1993 which I spoke at, Uh, and I didn't actually realise at the time that I It was the first time that, uh, a LGBT person or a gay man had and then in my case, had addressed a a UN, uh, world conference. Um, I took the floor, and there had been many NGO speakers before me, so I felt I was just one of a long line and, as always, happens when NGO S take the floor and states lose interest. The noise level in the room was rising and rising, and I began reading my prepared speech and suddenly became aware that there was dead silence that had descended across the room. Uh, [00:11:00] and suddenly people began gathering in front of me. There were, uh, cameras going off. Uh, and at the end of it, a little crowd had had gathered. Um, but what stood out for me was a delegate who came up to me, and I could tell from his badge that he was from one of the the government delegations. Uh, though I couldn't see which, uh and he came up to me he shook my hand and he had tears in his eyes and said, Thank you. That's the first time I've heard those words pronounced in a UN space. And then he kind of looked nervously, looked over his shoulder and disappeared into the crowd. And it [00:11:30] reminded me, particularly as we see how far how far we have come these days, that there was a time when one couldn't say the words lesbian or transgender in a UN space. And to do so provoked an immediate and vigorous backlash. We still face challenges to today at the international level. Uh, many of you will be aware that in 2003, Brazil presented a resolution on sexual orientation and human rights. At that point, it did not include gender identity, although subsequent initiatives have, [00:12:00] uh, But when it presented the resolution, there was such a backlash that it was deferred for a year and then for another year and eventually quietly withdrawn from the Human Rights Council agenda, uh, without even being discussed, let alone put to a vote. Just last year, uh, states at the United Nations General Assembly gathered together to vote sexual orientation out of a reference, uh, or a reference to sexual orientation. Sorry out of a resolution on extrajudicial executions, because some states couldn't even tolerate the [00:12:30] idea that we should acknowledge that killings against members of our communities are wrong. Thankfully, that decision was subsequently reversed, although again, gender identity was not included in the resolution signalling how far we still have to go to raise awareness and increase respect for the rights of those who are transgender, transsexual and intersex. One of the themes of this conference has been the the Jakarta principles. And I think the, uh, the cover of the guide is there on the screen, and you have received [00:13:00] the principles in, uh, in your conference kits. These are a set of principles on the application of international human rights law in relation to issues of sexual orientation and gender identity. They were developed to fulfil a gap in international human rights protection, where many states refuse to recognise, uh, international human rights law as even applying to those of us who are lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender or intersex. Of course, the protections are there. They're there in all of the international [00:13:30] instruments, but it was necessary and felt necessary by the participating experts to meet together together and to put in one document these standards, which affirm that everybody has the right to life, that no one should be subject to torture, regardless of their sexual orientation or gender identity, that everyone has a right to freedom of expression to non discrimination and access to health care and housing and education, uh, to bodily integrity and to affirm for ourselves our own identities without state interference. Some people have described [00:14:00] the Yogyakarta principles as groundbreaking, but I actually disagree. They break no new ground. They are simply an affirmation of the fundamental principle that runs throughout international human rights law. And it's reflected in the first article of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that all human beings are free and equal in dignity and rights, and that all human beings includes every one of us that we are the equal of every other human being on this planet, that we're all connected, and we're all entitled to enjoy [00:14:30] the same freedom, dignity and rights. It's a principle so obvious that it almost shouldn't need stating, but sadly, too often it does as the patterns of human rights violations around the world remind us so tragically on such a regular basis, whether it's a lesbian who is raped in an attempt to cure her of her of her sexual orientation, whether it's a transgender person who was beaten or killed on the streets with [00:15:00] little state interest or police response, whether it's a gay teenager who takes his own life because he cannot stand any longer the abuse that he faces from his peers, the Yogyakarta principles continue to have resonance precisely because they remind us that we are all entitled to enjoy these basic human rights protections. And more importantly, they provide us with a tool to remind our governments that they have a a solemn responsibility as members of the international community to ensure that our rights are respected just as those of any other [00:15:30] citizen of any other human being. At the same time, we know that our our voices will not be silenced, and it's also fitting on a conference like this and in our lives as we as we move forward to reflect on the progress that we have seen, I mentioned that there was a time when words like lesbian, gay, bisexual transgender intersex were not even named in UN fora. But much of that has changed and if I can find or if I can make this thing work. This is an excerpt from an address [00:16:00] that the United Nations Secretary General, Ban Ki moon, made on World Human Rights Day, December the 10th last year. And in talking on World Human Rights Day, which is the anniversary of the adoption of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Ban Ki moon specifically spoke at the United Nations General Assembly in New York at an event organised to address issues of sexual orientation and gender identity. And in his speech, he said, it is not called the partial declaration of human rights. It is not the sometimes declaration of human rights. It is the Universal [00:16:30] Declaration guaranteeing all human beings their basic human rights, without exception. When our fellow humans are persecuted because of their sexual orientation or gender identity, we must speak out. Human rights are human rights everywhere for everyone and to me, it's an amazingly powerful reminder when we see how we've moved from the days when the issues couldn't be [00:17:00] named to one where the secretary general of the United Nations, the highest figure in the UN hierarchy himself, is taking the floor on his own initiative and calling for all states to end human rights violations based on sexual orientation and gender identity. We've seen many great signs of progress in regions and countries around the world as well. One of the powerful new tools that the United Nations has adopted for improving the human rights situation in states around the world is the universal periodic review. It's called universal because every single [00:17:30] UN member state, large and small, must come before the United Nations Human Rights Council on a repeating four year basis and present their human rights situation. Receive recommendations from any other state around the world as to how to improve the human rights situation and give a response and make commitments as to what they will do to address those concerns. And we've seen tremendous take up throughout the Universal periodic review by LGBTI activists in countries and regions around the world to hold their governments [00:18:00] accountable and to make recommendations to decriminalise same sex conduct to ensure that trans people have access to government documentation that accords with their self defined gender identity to ensure that sexual orientation and gender identity are included as grounds in non discrimination acts. To ensure that states undertake obligations to train police officers to better respond to hate crimes against members of our communities. The array of issues is only as as limited as the issues that we, as our communities, [00:18:30] choose to put before the United Nations. Of course, states can give whatever responses they wish. Sometimes they are favourable, sometimes they are not. But at least they must respond to all recommendations and answer to the concerns and to the demands of our communities. A very positive example recently was Nauru, a small island state, as you know, which presented before the the Human Rights Council just about a month ago and in their own state presentation, the minister of justice from Nauru said. Yes, we still have colonial laws prohibiting [00:19:00] consensual same sex conduct. These laws are anachronistic and we pledge to repeal them. And that, to me is a tremendous example of how we can use the international tools to make sure that these laws are changed and how governments across the region are themselves gradually beginning to realise that their own laws are outdated and that they need to change. We've spoken a number of times at the conference about the joint statement on ending violence, criminal sanctions and related human rights violations based on sexual orientation and gender identity. [00:19:30] This will be presented at the Human Rights Council next Tuesday if its that remain in full swing. Although we gave today, I think as a as a deadline for governments to respond. If you still are in touch with your governments, we won't turn anybody away if they still come forward on Monday and beg to be added to the list. Um, I'm pleased to advise that as of now we now have more than 80 states who have supported and in particular [00:20:00] in particular, in the last 24 hours we've seen support from Guatemala, uh, Ecuador and Timor Leste, East Timor, as we've also heard, However, there is concern about a potential counter statement, and there's even concern that states hostile to the joint statement may try and present a negative resolution which has even greater impact in restricting the rights and the ability of the international mechanisms to address [00:20:30] issues of concern to members of our communities. So, of course, the work will continue throughout next week, both to promote the positive aspects but also to respond to the challenges that predictably, we continue to face. I mentioned yesterday that one of the states that has supported the joint statement just within the last 24 to 48 hours is the government of Rwanda. And this also I think, is a significant example of how times are changing, even within spaces that are [00:21:00] that are difficult. And I wanted to read you just a short excerpt from a speech made by the ambassador of Rwanda in the General Assembly in December last year when the amendment to include sexual orientation in the resolution on killings came up for a vote. And the the ambassador of Rwanda took the floor before the entire General Assembly of the United Nations and said people with a different sexual orientation continue to be the target of murder in many of our societies and are even more at risk than [00:21:30] many of the other groups listed. This is, unfortunately a reality, and recognising that does not in any way constitute a call for special rights but is simply a cry to ensure that their fundamental right the right to life, a right enjoyed by you and by me is not violated. To refuse to recognise this reality for legal or ideological or cultural reasons would have the consequence of continuing to hide our heads in the sand and of failing to alert states to those very real situations which break families. [00:22:00] Believe me, Mr President, that a human group does not need to be legally defined to be the victim of execution or massacre. Indeed, Rwanda had this bitter experience 16 years ago. That is why the delegation of Rwanda will vote in favour of this amendment and calls on other delegations to do the same. And it's clear. I think, that when states from regions around the world are drawing upon their own histories, their own experiences of discrimination, of violence, [00:22:30] of massacre, to recognise that we all are part of one human family and to commit to recognising the equal rights of members of our communities. Then there is great hope for the future and great hope for for moving forward. Of course, this kind of change does not happen by itself. It happens because of the, uh the work and the dedication and the commitment and the bravery of activists in countries around the world. And that's where one of the most powerful new tools, uh, for advancing and [00:23:00] implementing the Dodger Carter principles comes in. Many of you will have heard about the activists guide to the to the Dodger car principles. Yep, I got it. Uh, and this is a copy of the of the guide itself At the top, we have, uh, the website address at which you can download a copy of the guide and there's also there an order form at which you can order as many copies as you like. What's powerful about the guide is that it provides a toolkit for understanding the Georg Jakarta principles [00:23:30] in more detail and gives examples of case. Studies of how the Georg Jakarta principles and the legal standards are outlined in the Jakarta principles have been successfully applied by activists in countries and regions around the world. And I have to say, as one of the people who had been involved in the process leading to the adoption of the Dr Jakarta principles, I'm constantly amazed at the the creativity and the the uses by which activists around the world have have applied these legal these legal principles on their face [00:24:00] the legal. The principles could easily be seen as dry legal document without much relevance or impact in our lives. Uh, but in fact, activists have have taken them up and and used them around the world. In South Africa, there is a A calendar dedicated to the DOD Jakarta principles. Uh, with each month dedicated to a different principle and a quote from an activist on what that principle means, uh, in their lives. Uh, there's a group that has used the DOD Jakarta principles to lobby for education rights. In in guana uh, there's a document which maps [00:24:30] the principles against the Nigerian Constitution and for each gear principle, it's compared with an equivalent commitment in the Constitution of Nigeria. And I had a couple of other examples here as well, which I wanted to share with you. This also is a publication that's been produced in Kenya by activists there in collaboration with the Kenyan Human Rights Commission and therefore representing a great example of a partnership between activists and their National Human Rights Commission [00:25:00] to advance these issues within their society. This is a comic that's been produced in Indonesian. Uh, it's in English and Indonesian, uh, by, uh, groups within, uh, within Indonesia. And it's a It's a wonderful example of, uh, a comic illustration of the DOD Jakarta principles telling the story of a young woman who is coming out as a lesbian in school, faces harassment and violence rejection by her family, but goes on to discover at each stage of her life [00:25:30] and each chapter of the comic. It's compared against a one of the principles of the Jakarta principles, whether it's the right to education, the right to be free from violence, the right to participate in family and cultural life. Or ultimately, as the book concludes, the right to To Found a family, which is also one of the the internationally recognised human rights. This one I really like. It's a translation of the Jakarta principles into. I wasn't initially sure of. What language does anybody know? What language? OK, it's actually Lithuanian. As I as [00:26:00] I discovered recently, I, uh, I first just thought it was really, really colourful, and the inside is even better. Um, I must say our our own visual creativity when the initial jaar uh, principles were developed was rather limited. It's this kind of drab purple book, but that's the other thing That's wonderful about sharing it with our communities is that since then there have been many more colourful examples and translations that have been produced. So these are just some examples of the ways in which, uh, the the Jaar principles have been given life by activists around the world. Um, I'll just conclude in relation to, uh, the [00:26:30] activists guide by, uh, mentioning as I did earlier, that on the website there is an order form at which you can order as many copies of either the the principles themselves or the activists guide in different languages. Uh, and that's our our organisation. Should you wish to find out more about our work? That's my my little plug there. But I guess in closing, I'd like to say that although the DOD Jakarta principles were developed by international human rights experts, they now belong to to all of us, as does our struggle for, uh, for equality [00:27:00] more broadly and having participated in this conference, uh, for the last few days, I can certainly say that, uh, that that it could be in no better hands. In terms of of the next steps, we know that there will be challenges ahead. But when we face those challenges and whenever we we feel alone or isolated in our struggles, uh, whenever we feel that we need to take heart, I'd like you to to ask you to To remember this moment and to take a moment now to to look around [00:27:30] this room and feel the spirit and the energy and the positive engagement of all of the people who are here and know that you are are never alone. We are from all corners of the the region. We are from beyond. We are many, but we are also one. And when we raise our voices together, we know that our cause is just our spirit is true, and as a movement, we are unstoppable. [00:28:00] I think John has inspired us to go out on a really high note and a note that just focuses on the importance of human rights for every one of us as individuals, but also as groups as part of society. [00:28:30] And I sometimes think that, um, those who have sought to denigrate human rights have sometimes claimed well, they're only about individuals. But if you look at those rights, there's not a single right in the universal Declaration that you could have without being part of society. There's not a single right that doesn't need others around us to acknowledge it and, um, to respect it and for us to do the same. So and I think that one of the [00:29:00] great things about a conference like this as well for me certainly is the extent to which the the contributions from those from many different societies, um and because I live in this part of the world, particularly from the Pacific, constantly adds to my understanding of what human rights might really mean and what's needed to put them into effect. So our understanding is evolving, though that wonderful statement in the of the Universal Declaration, Um, it's amazing [00:29:30] that after 64 years, it still it still resonates for people everywhere. John, I think, um, you know, you really have um showed us that it's possible to envisage a future where everyone can be who they are, can be confident in who they are and can have a place to stand at in a society, Um, where they experience dignity, equality [00:30:00] and security. I mean, that's the fundamentals of human rights. And, uh, and we can all contribute and have a responsibility to contribute to building that society and to building, um, a place with the wonderful richness of human diversity, including amongst sexual and gender. Minorities is not merely tolerated, but is celebrated.

IRN: 357
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_jeremy_naylor.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004165
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089459
TITLE: Jeremy Naylor
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VOICES: Jeremy Naylor
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Jeremy Naylor; Wellington Town Hall; human rights
DATE: 18 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Jeremy Naylor from New Zealand talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I was interested in mostly the conference, but also a few sporting sporting events, too. Like, for example, swimming, diving and dance sport. I couldn't go to to watch the There was one of the conference speakers. What we give him. Give him a hand with the with the his. So I had to do that instead. Have you been to a conference like this before? No, I can't say I have. Have have you found it? I [00:00:30] found it really good. Mostly very interesting. One thing I can think of was the one yesterday afternoon. I think it was on from the news about HIV and giving us some over the state, the state of the HIV virus in firstly, Asia, then the Pacific region. Then in New Zealand. It's it's pretty bad. [00:01:00] Were there other speakers that, um, that that had a real impact on you? Use other no non health related subjects like, for example, education is is one is one that comes back that comes to mind. I've been to a few a few of those, like on all three days. That's on Wednesday, Thursday and today. Being Friday, I found them very interesting. Interesting. So I went to one of those, [00:01:30] which was about people who had had two different talks or from 22 different groups. And firstly, they had people from the Street Alliance from three or four different schools based in or who are in Nelson getting their experience. And we do. We also they they discussed with us the group. [00:02:00] What are the pros and cons of heading a guy? Straight lines. And then we had a present, a presentation or a speech from a group called Stands for Wa Youth. So that was quite interesting. They are quite different. And they they got their their own building of their own purposes in the city of Hamilton. And they had they [00:02:30] had four of their own members or young people came to come to talk to us, and they told us they cut their coming out stories, which was which was, thankfully, most mostly positive. So that that was great. That was great to hear. What do you think the, um, the the biggest things that you will take away from the conference are I, I guess, just in terms of, um, the whole experience, the [00:03:00] the experience of, uh, being with 300 other gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual people and maybe more more too. Yeah, yeah. So? So how How has that experience of being surrounded by, um, such a diverse group of people that are very positive? How have you found that? I find it great. I find it very comfortable to be to be myself and who I am and [00:03:30] and not have to pretend to be. Well, somebody I'm not like, for example, I can I can like. For example, I am I am out as a gay guy, so that's fine. I can continue being out. So that's great. Unlike other other people who might not be as out or who might not be as comfortable being out as I am one or two [00:04:00] of II I live in a in a in a a flooding situation, basically, and one or two of my flat can be nice, hard to live with sometimes, because of that, for example, that they might ask me where I'm, um, if I'm going out, they might ask me where I'm going. And so can be a challenge, sometimes telling them that I'm going to a gay event or [00:04:30] to a Rainbow event, especially with one of them who goes to to to to to Disney. Like, for example, when I was, I told one of them that I was planning to go to to the as well. He saw my, my, my my big and he he read out the the text that he read on it, which reads the scene as seven at, and he asked me, What is the out games? [00:05:00] And I explained to him what the game is is. And he asked me, Why do you need to have an out games like, Why can't just gave people why you people just go to the Olympic Games or Commonwealth Games? What do you think the biggest kind of challenges are facing queer people in New Zealand today? Uh, I wouldn't say I think it's an an issue or a challenge for me anymore [00:05:30] anymore, because I don't go to school anymore. But for people who do, homophobia and bullying can be quite a big issue or challenge for for for well, a lot of them probably. Well, I think would be if we, um if we were to skip ahead 30 years and somebody's listening back to this tape in 30 years time. What would you like to say to them? Basically, [00:06:00] you're not alone in this world. If if if you are straight or gay or bi or trans, bisexual or transgender, whatever you may be again, I say you're not alone in this world or in this community, I have been through tough times and challenges as you might too.

IRN: 356
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_jenny_rankine.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004164
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089458
TITLE: Jenny Rankine
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Jenny Rankine
INTERVIEWER: Jim Whitman
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Jenny Rankine; Out at Work Network; Wellington Town Hall; human rights
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Jenny Rankine from New Zealand talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So the two sessions that, um, you attended, um, I went to the, um, a workplace. One which was really interesting. I came in at the end of that, and it was talking. Um, they were talking about out at work. Um, and, um, and different unions, you know, the, um, raising queer issues and different unions. Um, And then I went to, um, a very good one about, um, making schools safer for, um um GL BT I students. And, um, it [00:00:30] was really clear that you needed to put the gaze and focus your change on the structures of the school. Not on supporting the students, you know, because you can, uh, one of the things that was clear was you have the support groups and the students, but they get ghettoised, and the structure of the school stays the same. Very hetero, sexist. So that was really interesting and useful. And, um, I'm giving a workshop on lesbian media. Well, I'm part of a work I'd like to attend. That obviously [00:01:00] Yeah, media is very powerful, isn't it? But also very misused. Um, yeah, that's interesting. So what do you think you're likely to take away it perhaps too soon. But what would you like to take away personally yourself from? Well, um I had a discussion with one of the out at work people about developing a kit for unionists. Who, um, you know, GP T a unionists who want to do something to, um, raise [00:01:30] issues, Um, that we're concerned about in the unions in their workplaces. Um, and I would really love to see that, um, take a step closer to being developed, so that would be great. Um, and I'm also keen to get feedback on the Tamaki lesbian news set, which I'm involved in in Auckland. But we have quite a national readership, and I'll be talking about that at the workshop. Is there one particular trade union issue that you've identified? [00:02:00] Or is it do they inter relate interlock, um, all the issues into lock, But there's quite a lot of resistance, um, among some unions to even raising the issue at all. Um, and therefore unions are those unions are almost completely useless as support to workers who are discriminated against that work because of, um, their sexual identity or gender [00:02:30] identity. And, um, so you've got to start at home to change things. So, um, workplaces won't change. Um, very fast. Unless the unions support GL BT I workers. And that's, uh, that's a long running thing, isn't it? That that swimming for the conference to take away as well, I think that's great. Thank you. Do you want to ask me about the how did the It was really well organised. It was a very well organised meet. The volunteers were terrific. [00:03:00] Um, a lot of them had never run or been involved in a competition before, but the organisation trained them up, and they did really well. Um, and it ran to time. And the, um, announcer was great, and, um and the teams were very successful. Um, we had, um the three biggest teams were from Australia, Melbourne first in Sydney, then Brisbane. And the fourth biggest team was Auckland. So, um, Wellington was sort of like the fifth biggest [00:03:30] group. Um, and there were a lot of unaffiliated people, including, um, Kirsty Cameron, who broke three, um, records. And she's not gay. So that was that got into the paper and not the fact that all their wonderful gay swimmers, you know, had personal best and stuff. I got a personal best in my 53. I shaved two seconds off my time and I was absolutely stoked with that. And, um and I'm in Team Auckland. And, um, we did really well and we had several people who'd never competed before, and they had a really good time. So all of us [00:04:00] had a great time. It was a really, really good swimming competition.

IRN: 355
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_janette_kelly_and_debora_lee.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004163
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089457
TITLE: Janette Kelly and Debora Lee
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Debora Lee; Janette Kelly
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Debora Lee; Janette Kelly; Wellington Town Hall; education; human rights; parenting; school; teaching
DATE: 18 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Janette Kelly and Debora Lee from New Zealand talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Janet Kelly, and I've I work at the University of Waikato as a teacher educator on the Bachelor of Teaching Early Childhood Education Programme. And I came to the conference because I, um, have a research interest in sexuality and diversity because I've been, um, involved in some research projects around it. Because I identify as queer because it was an opportunity to come back to Wellington after being in Hamilton [00:00:30] for four years. And it was a chance to catch up with some mates who were doing research in the areas that I'm interested in as well, as well as to kind of be open to the wider um, conference in its themes. I'm Deborah Lee and I work at the Faculty of Education in Auckland. I'm in teacher education. Early childhood education is my specialty. I teach in early childhood social sciences education. I'm [00:01:00] really interested in sexuality issues and the challenge for early childhood teachers to deal with diversity that is the most complex, if you like diversity that teachers have to manage and the one they find the most challenging. I've done research into early childhood education and the experiences of gay mothers That's how they identified themselves. Generally, they like to call themselves gay and their [00:01:30] families. So the their experiences and their family's experiences and early childhood centres. And I've also done research into our faculty at the Faculty of Education at the University of Auckland, exploring issues of visibility and inclusion for people of diverse sexualities. And I came to this conference because this is our conference. Um, it had a strong education theme. It's family. Um, I have a sister in [00:02:00] in Wellington. I am really interested in networking with people in the area of education, but the broader, um, matters as well. One of the really interesting things I've found is that how we identify ourselves within this conference and the words that we use would you like to talk about that I In the presentation that we, Jeannette and I, and Lisa were involved in this [00:02:30] morning, I talked about how generally in my friendships I I consider myself a dyke. I describe myself as a dyke. I'm happy to call myself queer in in situations where that inclusivity is really important, I rarely use the word gay. The whole LGBT T thing is clumsy and one of the things that's come out of this conference is how unhappy a lot of people are with it. So we do need to [00:03:00] really think seriously about some other terms that are going to work for everybody. Um, but I'm really aware that for me, I the terminology I use is use changes in the situations that I'm in and with student teachers. For example, I tend to use the word gay because that's the word that they are less likely to be resistant to. Whereas if I use queer, that's something. I notice that resistance comes up and I don't have [00:03:30] the time to do the whole education thing. Also amongst my friends, a lot. My friends see queer as an academic term. They can only see it as academic. If they say it, it is, um, not an inclusive term. It's meant to be inclusive, but it doesn't feel inclusive to us. We're not queer. We wear dikes or we we're, um, lesbian. But we're certainly not queer. So we have so many different um, interpretations [00:04:00] and feelings around the terminology. I think it's a huge issue. I agree with some of the things that Deb said but I don't think we're gonna get a consensus. I think that that who we are and who we say we are, um is really complex, and it and it depends on our individual perspectives. And just like in our research, we worked out that, you know, we can say, um, a same sex headed family or a same sex couple. But when we talk about same sex families, [00:04:30] we need to, um, identify that that that in itself is kind of contestable. That that, um, you know, two lesbians might have an anonymous donor and go through the fertility associates to have a to have a child. But but, you know, queer families or rainbow families or whatever could also include Children from heterosexual unions, where one or of their parents is now involved in a homosexual relationship. Um, or, you [00:05:00] know, adoptions or any number of things. Where where a range of people choose to parent a child together, like one of the families I interviewed, where there was, you know, two lesbian mothers and a and a gay father. And, um, and his, you know. So So those kind of things show us that that you know, We're not into black and white. It's not either or it's a It's a whole kind of multiplicity, I suppose. And I suppose the term when I say that I'm queer identified [00:05:30] that there is an acknowledgement that I understand that there's a body of literature that's called Queer Theory and that and that it comes with a whole lot of, um, kind of or givens or agreed, you know, has a It's a discourse that has its own terminology associated with it, that people come to understand that it's that it's shared in that sense. But also, once upon a time, I would have identified as a lesbian, and then maybe I would have identified as bisexual [00:06:00] or being considered a lapsed lesbian or something like that. And whilst I'm in a long term relationship with a man, I still I see that my work, my stance, my my perspective on things is a queer perspective. And so, um, and you know, I didn't I didn't march the streets and fight for homosexual law reform bill, but law reform for people to say you can't play with us or you know you you don't fit our narrow little [00:06:30] box label anymore, so we don't want you to be here. And I think from my perspective, those those kind of broader terms allow for a whole lot of the diversity that's in our community. But I do like Deb. I've heard at this conference people saying, You know, when you call us you, for you it's a It's a term that relates to our sexuality or who we sleep with or something. But actually it's way beyond that. And so I suppose I [00:07:00] like from my perspective as an educator, I understand about social and cultural and historical context and the importance of them in that we each bring those with us and identity as part of that kind of equation, I suppose, and so I think we call ourselves. You know, it's like being an alcoholic. I'm an alcoholic. If I say I'm an alcoholic, it's not for somebody else to label me. So I suppose when I've heard people say, you know, as a lesbian, [00:07:30] I feel like lesbian is missing from this whole LG TB, um discussion or as an older lesbian, I feel left out. Then I see that each and every one of us could say that in this discussion or in this conference or in this I mean and I think that's why we're all here. And we may be pushing out our own Barrows or in our own kind of fields or areas of expertise, but that But they were all here under the same roof. [00:08:00] And the other day there was a whole lot of people coming to a really fancy dinner with Sue Jeffrey Archer in the same building. And I happened to be talking to an old, you know, dyke mate at the time. And she said, Once upon a time, we wouldn't have even been in the same building as those people. Once upon a time, we wouldn't have even had straits anywhere near us, let alone any of those other you know, multiplicity of people who are in this family. Now. Can you believe, like a conference 25 years after law reform? [00:08:30] I mean, 25 years is not a long time, is it? No, no. And we were out on the streets and marching for human rights in those days, and and I think that we've made great progress. But my fear is that a lot of straight. People think that everything's all right now and that that progress has been made. We've won that one. We can move on and see people who are activists now, as [00:09:00] you know, making a fuss when there's no need to make a fuss anymore because we've got the legislation. But you know, it doesn't go far enough and we're not there yet. Absolutely. Um, you know, I know. I know queer people. You know, lesbians who think that What's the fuss? Why are we still banging on about these things? Haven't we moved on from that stuff? But I think that our research shows that when you know, typically, lesbian headed [00:09:30] families take their Children to early childhood centres or kindergartens or play centres or schools that they are still having to negotiate their way through what is, you know, a heteros society and and where people still think that, you know, we don't want to know what you do in bed thinking that being lesbian is is somehow about that. And I think Deb said it before, Um, you know, in early childhood, [00:10:00] particularly in New Zealand, I think we've got a bicultural curriculum that is that is inclusive where social justice is really evident. But, um, but that we still, um you know, this is the one that sexuality or sexual diversity is the one area of diversity that we don't do very well. We're quite good about, um, ethnicity. And, you know, we we talk about gender and our language, and we look at things to do with people who are able bodied and not so able bodied [00:10:30] and all of those sorts of things. But sexual diversity is still a bit of a no no, because it's got because Children are seen as innocent and it's not appropriate to talk about those things with them. But, you know, one of the things that I was really struck by, uh, there was a workshop by an Australian woman called Kerry Robinson, a associate professor from Western Sydney. And she said, the fact that we are the fact that we are loath to talk about issues with Children because of this whole kind of constructing them as innocent, but [00:11:00] also seeing that you know that there is risk associated with having those conversations, Um, that that in many ways, is what leads Children to be vulnerable because they don't have the the understanding, the experiences or because they know that those are things that we don't talk about. So in some ways all of those things that that we're not doing are making Children more vulnerable, even though we think that we're protecting them. It's a really interesting thing to go away with, and I think she's gonna do [00:11:30] some more research about it and write a book about it and stuff. And I'm really keen to kind of keep exploring that in my own kind of work, but also with students as well and and mates who appear, You know, at that workshop, I think somebody said that they know of a couple who are afraid to be naked around their Children because of the possible kind of consequences. If that's how far this backlash has gone, then I'm really concerned about that [00:12:00] and I think we do need to talk about these things with young Children because they are at an age that you know, they'll tell you they've got two mummies. They'll be very happy with the fact that they've got 11 grandmothers because of the way that their family is constituted and diverse and stuff, but, um, and it's kind of adults who put those blocks in the way who who introduce that kind of heteros or homophobic or kind of, you know, it's not OK to talk about that stuff [00:12:30] to Children. One of the things that I've been thinking about a lot and I brought up at our workshop today was the the eye of where the teacher's role is the families. Some of the families that I interviewed said things like, I would have loved to have seen a rainbow flag, anything, anything that said to me, This place is for you. You belong here. And even though for the most part teachers were really welcoming, they were nice. They were friendly, They were great. [00:13:00] Just that extra mile. You know, one of the mothers said to me They have a staff meeting once a fortnight. I get the feeling that they've never even sat down for 15 minutes and thought, What would it be like to be a child with two mothers in this place? You know, what can we do to better support this family? So there. So I suppose one of my questions is how do we, um, educate people [00:13:30] to become committed to this area of diversity in the same way that they're committed to other areas of diversity, but also in terms of the role of the teacher. What does it mean? Most of the homophobia, if you like from, Um, the research that we've looked at and that I've done doesn't come from teachers. Teachers may for the most part, are professional. They might. I think they're hem a lot of the time, but really, are they homophobic? [00:14:00] From my perception, the real homophobia comes from other families and centres and other families, Um, perhaps talking to their Children or not letting their Children play with with Children from same gender families or whatever it also comes about in school. And we did get some stories in the research I did in Tertiary, um, about a child who nobody would play with in the playground in a school yard. Um, he had two mothers and was considered to have gay germs, [00:14:30] so the other Children avoided this child. And when I said to the to the student who was telling me this, I said, So what did the teachers do? She said, I don't think the teachers knew what to do. So there are things around addressing homophobia that isn't coming from teachers. But that's coming from other families. How, What is the role of the teacher in relation to addressing that with Children and and perhaps even with other families? But with the culture of the centre in terms of, I mean, it comes down to, in a way of perhaps, a bullying [00:15:00] perspective, looking at what's, um, bigger picture stuff policies, Um, acceptance, celebrating and and the dignity. That's a word that I'm going to go away with because that came through really strongly at the beginning of this conference, and I really like it in terms of dignity. And, um, yes, so I've got I've got a lot of questions in terms of my own work, as well as some of the bigger issues or the more broad general community. [00:15:30] Issues that have been raised is that kind of homophobia in early childhood centres. Is that widespread in terms of isolating Children of gay and lesbian parents? It's hard to know. I think, that that gay and lesbian parents are absolutely like they think long and hard about where they send their Children to early childhood and and from the research that we did, they identified that they would go somewhere where word of mouth from members of their community suggested it was a safe and no place [00:16:00] place to be where they knew that they were gay and lesbian teachers, even if those teachers weren't out. And I think in, like in primary and secondary schools. But I mean in any early in any education setting, I think teachers kind of negotiate that stuff about how far in or out of the closet they are, depending on, you know, depending on their, um, a whole lot of factors. Um, I think that they also they want these parents wanted their Children to. They brought [00:16:30] them up to have an understanding about prejudice and ways of countering kind of prejudice. And so when they were looking for places to enrol their Children, they were they looked at places that that had a whole lot of other diversity in them because they thought that at least that, um, some of those issues would be, and those issues around prejudice would be being discussed there because there was a whole lot of refugee and migrant families or because, you know, there was a whole lot of Children with special needs. [00:17:00] Um, you know, additional needs things like that. So So they were careful about where they were taking their Children. I think there's also this feeling, and I and I see it about other issues as well. And you know, I don't mean to belittle either of the issues, but that there are often teachers who will say We don't have to, um we don't have to address issues to do with ethnicity because we don't or or Maori because we don't have any Maori families here. So why would we do the gay stuff? Because we don't have any gay families here. Actually, [00:17:30] you know, the percentage of gay families in society is growing. Um, their visibility is growing because of support of legislation and because, you know, IVF technology is available to them and all of those kind of things. And so I think that's a cop out on the part of teachers. And that's certainly the kind of message that I'm giving to student teachers, both in the early childhood programmes where I teach, but also when I'm the invited. You know, um, I've put my hand up around [00:18:00] the faculty to do the sexuality lecture. Sometimes it's the very last lecture that the secondary graduates do before they graduate. But I'm very keen to kind of that. I do that like I understand about heterosexual privilege now, but I also know what it's like to be discriminated against because of my kind of past history. So I'm very keen to do those lectures, and I'm very keen to challenge those people. But I know that, you know, one lecture at the end of the programme or something, or, um, one lecture [00:18:30] about diverse families as part of their human development. 101 is not gonna cut it and that it needs to be broader than that. And I think that, you know, when we use scenarios in our teaching with student teachers, we often chuck in the lesbian mothers at the centre just just because it's kind of part of my research and some other some other colleagues who happen to be lesbian or, um, you know, have understandings of these issues and the importance of them. So I didn't quite answer the question, but I think that, um, [00:19:00] you know, there's some interesting stuff there worth saying Interesting stuff was the stuff. Has there been stuff in the conference that has really challenged thoughts that you have? I think one of the challenges for me has been religious diversity, actually in in my teaching because, you know, you asked before about was there much homophobia that families [00:19:30] experienced? And in my research, not there wasn't very much at all. There were two Children out of the research who who had been, um, stopped, if you like, from playing with particular Children and and in one case, um, there were religious differences. That was a, you know, cultural and religious differences and that that's definitely a challenge for me, because I'm still not sure how teachers and how how I as an educator, work with people for whom [00:20:00] my sexuality, a queer sexuality, is a sin against God. I'm actually I'm still I'm still challenged by that one. Everybody sees it as an abomination, though. I mean, I think the fact that you know there are there have been workshops here exploring sexuality that they've been supported by, you know, a local church community. Um, that that I've seen people presenting from countries where you know where Christianity [00:20:30] is is not necessarily the the prevalent religion, but where there are other religions and thought that they would be extremely oppressive and and sure they probably are. But I've seen people in those countries fighting for their right to be seen and respected and for their dignity and to be upheld and all those sorts of things. I think for me it's like whilst we might have achieved a whole lot in New Zealand in terms of legislative change that that society's attitudes generally have lagged behind, [00:21:00] um but that that within the Asia Pacific region, not everybody has benefited from the same kind of support that that we have in this country and that, um, you know that we can't afford to be complacent, that we I think that there is a very I don't know whether it's organised. But I have a very strong sense that the number of fundamentalist Christians going into teacher education [00:21:30] is high and growing and that I absolutely know that the way to shape social attitudes is is through education and that you, um you know, those are kind of things that, like Dave says, I need to think about some more and think about ways of countering. Or, you know, I think that that exploring ways to get people to rather than that going head to head with them about differences [00:22:00] of opinions, getting them to kind of delve into their thinking and, you know, explore it a bit more or theorise it or, um, some of that stuff to help them kind of understand a little better, but also about, you know, and I've heard people say it a lot. I don't care about your personal beliefs. When you come into this place, we have a shared philosophy, a curriculum document [00:22:30] and that you leave your personal opinions at the door. And when you come in here, you do and teach and say and be things that fit with, particularly with young Children that fit with our philosophy. So who you are or what you believe doesn't matter here that you when you're in this place, you do it like this. So you know, I don't know if everybody thinks like that. I read something the other day that said, um, you know, get some, get some professional development around helping you explore these issues [00:23:00] with young Children, and if you're not OK with them, then don't work here. And I don't know, maybe parents have a choice about We're not going to that centre because there's too many queer staff there or we saw a rainbow flag there or that's not the place for our family. And, like they do have a choice. You know, they can go to somewhere down the road. So rather than teachers not confronting those issues because they don't want to upset parents and families or whatever, then maybe what we need and I think we're starting to see is that magnet centres. You know, I heard the other day of a centre in [00:23:30] Auckland, where there were 11 lesbian headed families on the roll, and I heard that from a straight identified teacher that works there. But I and I said to her that you've obviously become a magnet centre. Words got out in this community that it's an OK place to be, and and I'm really gratified about that because in Deb's research, I heard her say, a lesbian parent was, you know, wanted to see things in the centre that reflected their diversity but [00:24:00] was mindful that their child was one of 30. And so if every family was into that, then you know, would there be room for all of the things that they wanted to see there. So the fact that there's 11 out of 30 or 11 out of 50 or whatever gives me heart and makes me think it must be really lonely when you're not in that kind of space. OTL lonely The lonely OTL Is that a new? Is it a new acronym? It's not a new [00:24:30] acronym. My daughter who introduced it to me a couple of years ago and she's when she was 14, a TL Have there been other kind of kind of queer words that have been bandied about this conference that, uh, something we should put on record? Glitter bucket? I heard someone say that before a young woman went up to a speaker and said in the workshop, I heard you use the term glitter bucket. I've never heard that before. What does that mean? [00:25:00] And the woman said, it's a um it saves having to go through the whole list of gay, lesbian, transsexual, intersexual, bisexual so the glitter bucket. But I don't know about the B for bucket in the I don't know, But, um, it's interesting that that, you know, people are that it's being used by people and other people want to know what it means. I don't any other words. Um, [00:25:30] you know, I wonder sometimes when we go on about heteronormative If, um, if people understand that, or that's just an academic kind of term, Um, and I think on our power point we put a definition of it, and I saw it on somebody else's PowerPoint as well. So, you know, hopefully that stuff contributes to people's understandings when they when they the proceedings, you know? So what do you think you'll take away from this conference? I'm certainly feeling [00:26:00] energised, you know, and and affirmed and feeling better able to continue the fight if you like, because sometimes it does get a little bit lonely, even though I've got other colleagues and and and friends. It does feel as if the responsibility to challenge ideas around heteronormative tends to fall on people who are queer. It tends to fall on us to take the action, and I guess we need places like this to come [00:26:30] to and be nurtured ourselves and be encouraged and have ideas around our our own dignity. Um, enhanced. And I've also had some really exciting ideas about some more research I wanted to do, and that's that's making me feel very motivated. I, too, feel energised but know that there's a huge job to do out there. And there aren't lots of people doing it, Like Deb says. So getting [00:27:00] more people who, um, you know who are supportive of queer issues, Um, you know, I think it's It's when I think back to my days of, um, doing anti-racism education. I belong to an organisation called Woman Debate the treaty. And that was really significant because Maori woman had a whole lot of other things to do. And I think that, um, just like that, we need those kind of, you know, we need other people [00:27:30] to be involved in this, not just us. Um, I think that, um, I've got a whole lot of, um, resources. I've got the PPT a pamphlets about Someone tells you they're gay or there's nothing wrong with being straight, straight and narrow. That's a problem. So, um I There was some of those at the faculty of education where I worked, but they disappeared from the staff room after I borrowed them from the secondary programme. Um, so that gave me, you know, cause for concern then. So I got a whole lot more, [00:28:00] and I think I talked to somebody about it, and they said you should just be grateful that somebody needed them, obviously more than you did. And hopefully that they're using them. I thought, Yeah, right. Um, I've also got a lot of wrist bands. Compliments to the New Zealand police that say stand to be proud, safer communities together. And some, um, and some rainbow Emory boards that they were offering as part of the same sex for women [00:28:30] package because men got condoms, found that kind of interesting, maybe slightly narrow view of the whole issue. But nevertheless, um, I've got some a whole lot of, um, stuff about from the Netherlands that came in the sponsorship pack to go and share with my gay mates, who I'm sure will enjoy the magazines. Some more wristbands to give away. Um, I've made some fab, um connections with people both in Australia [00:29:00] and New Zealand, or reaffirm those connections in the kind of early childhood research community and beyond, but also met a bunch of people from the Waikato who are involved in Waikato Youth Network. And, um and so you know, that's been really useful to get some local kind of connections with people who might be willing to come and talk to students and stuff like that. And also, um, you know, had a fab time in Wellington just after the Lesbian art exhibition this afternoon. Been to velvet last night [00:29:30] and sat on the pink sofa that was, you know, the sponsors kind of. So all of those things have been fabulous. And I think, you know, just just a sense of belonging to something across the whole region, not just New Zealand, but also, um, you know, and having a good time in Wellington taking away my memories. One final question. Skip ahead 30 years, and somebody's listening back to this tape. What would you say to them? I hope that the world is full [00:30:00] of rainbow families and that early childhood centres are safe places for those families to be, and they don't have to look as hard to find one as what you do now. I hope that, um, the Children who are in early childhood centres now and in the next few years the ones who come out as gay in their high schools, have a comfortable time of it. I hope that the now making a difference [00:30:30] in our whole communities and that sexuality is no longer considered the least likely diversity to be addressed in our education system generally.

IRN: 354
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ATL REF: OHDL-004162
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089456
TITLE: Jack Winter and co
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Dan Morales; Jack Winter; Sam Clarke
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Dan Morales; Jack Winter; Sam Clarke; human rights; youth
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Jack Winter, Dan Morales and Sam Clarke from New Zealand talk about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Listening this morning to, um, something about, um, research in Australia. It sounded pretty rough on young people school. Particularly. My strong sense was that that that that if you started talking human rights in schools, then teachers and and staff might not really understand where you're coming from. Um, because there might not be that many human rights in school for kids. I, I think for us, I I me personally, I've just finished university and [00:00:30] going into schools. I'm a first year teacher. Um, being recently being a youth and being going through the the whole schooling process, Um, it's really different from for us my point of view, you know, in New Zealand, because of how we as a society function and how we sort of see the world, um, New Zealand tend to look more about rights because of our relationship with the treaty and all those kind of things. I mean, we've all had, um, culture and diversity training [00:01:00] within schools first and foremost, haven't we through social studies and through all those, um, curriculum things that we do? Um and I mean, even with our work through, um, it's exposing those ST, um, kids that come into our youth group and be able to, um, express their rights and sort of say OK, if if there's something wrong, then what do I do? And the processes that are embedded within the youth now and in the culture and the society within our schools [00:01:30] actually give us a whole lot of, um, protection and rights. I also do think that, um, based on, like, hearing about other places in the world, it seems to be a majority of the schools that have a problem with it. Whereas, like in Hamilton, it kind of it feels a lot less like that. It feels like there's a minority out of all the schools, there's a minority that are still against it, and a majority of them have accepted it and incorporated not necessarily education. [00:02:00] But like it's kind of you can tell that the environment is very friendly and to the point of like teachers, if you're out, they will discuss it with you and that kind of thing. And especially at my school, we're allowed same sex partners and always have. I think, um well, all have for a number of years, and so that's when it comes to balls and things like that is not an issue with my school, and it's a coed. So, yeah, [00:02:30] um, I think when compared to other countries like Australia, it is a lot better, especially for other people like teachers. Especially like a seminar yesterday was talking about the harshness that teachers can't actually be out in Catholic schools or else they'll be fired. And so, yeah, I think New Zealand has got it quite good. And so young people themselves benefit from teachers having greater freedom. [00:03:00] I think it's the whole, um, the society as well, Like it's more accepting for us. I mean, we were just at, um, which is our national museum, and we went walked through and we saw, uh, an exhibit on New Zealand homosexuality Reform Bill, and that was so touching because, um, I'm 23. So when I was born in 1987 was the year that, you know it passed. So it was only 23 years ago, and yet we've made so much progress and all the the the the problem we have [00:03:30] now for me anyway, as a young adult is educating those who are younger than me to. Then look at Hey, remember all the hard work, all the big wins that all these people have done. Remember that you and the way you do things and the way that the rights that you have were won by so few people and, um, got to just give that recognition to them, I think also, um, especially at my school. Um, um, there have been teachers who have been out in the workplace, [00:04:00] and I think the common trend that's been, um, in Hamilton definitely is that a majority of people and and the majority of schools that are OK with it if they're not out, it's personal choice. It's not. They feel like they can't be out. It's a personal choice that they don't want to be out and that that they don't want to be out to their colleagues or whatever. But it's not because of fear of losing their job or anything like that. It's simply [00:04:30] their own choice, which I think is a real positive thing. And it reflects that, you know, we've made heaps of progress. And what about other ways of of looking at sexuality and gender in the Pacific, like um, Takata? Um uh, is that Did you know that the the full extent of the way those people, people who call themselves that can feel say, [00:05:00] Well, I'm not gay. Um, uh, I'm a I'm a man physically, and I feel as if I have the woman spirit inside of me, but that's quite normal. I don't want that to change. I don't know about these boys, but with me, I I've had, um, dealings with a diverse group of people. Um I. I lived on K Road for a couple of months when I was, um, 18. And just with friends and stuff and having the, uh, the drag queens [00:05:30] and the and the the that were out there, um gave me a better insight, but it, um it also brought out the harshness of the the realities of sometimes difference does there is a bigger pool of difference. It's not just the black and white that we see. So it's It's, um it's really hard as a young person to accept. Maybe I'm not. I'm not so right. And maybe I don't fit into these tick boxes [00:06:00] that we've created. I mean, we've had to create these these tick boxes, but now they're sort of being made redundant. I Before I went, before I started going to wacky, I had a very kind of limited knowledge. It was generally what I think I knew was, um gay, lesbian and bisexual. And that was probably the extent to my knowledge of, um, GL BT. Um but then as the more I became involved in, um, wacky and the more I learned from [00:06:30] Wacky, um, the more terms I became familiar with and the the more I I actually have, um, because of Waki met drag queens and seeing people in drag and so that that kind of thing, by being by being involved in a youth group, it builds your understanding and you meet a lot of different people because they because queer is such a big umbrella in it and and it covers all areas. [00:07:00] That means you're meeting not just gay males or not just gay females. But you're meeting a whole wide variety of people. And so that's where I gained my knowledge. I probably have to say that I'm a little like Jake, like I didn't know a lot about the gay community before going to, like, I knew the basic identities of gay, bisexual lesbian, but, um, meeting people and hearing [00:07:30] about, like, people they know it really does extend your, um, vocabulary for the gay community. And even today, like like LGBT was extended to LGBTI Q for me. Like a lot of like, I don't use that word that often now. And I probably should still look at the meaning what it is. But yeah, I'm definitely learning. Thanks to all this extra education, [00:08:00] this is a very Pacific event. I guess that my ob observation it's not It's not a event. Um, it would be impossible to say that it's been invented by pakeha. Exactly. Um, because there are so many people from the Pacific here do do. Do you feel New Zealand is Pacific country? I think I think New Zealand, um, encompasses a wide variety of people. And I think [00:08:30] that's a really good thing about New Zealand. As long as you like when you live here, no matter if you're Asian Maori Um pakeha, um Dutch, you know, you're you become a New Zealander. You be You recognise yourself as a kiwi, and that's a really good thing about New Zealand. There's kind of no definition to like. We're not one particular colour or one particular race. We are just all united, [00:09:00] and I think that's one really good thing about New Zealand. That's how it feels to me that everyone in New Zealand is united under the one banner being New Zealander or Kiwi. The support I think of, um, the the whole Pacific coming together here in Wellington, Um just brings about that diverse sense of difference and difference in a good way. Um, it gives I think it gives us, um, a greater sense of what it is to be [00:09:30] at GL BT I Not just as, um, citizens of New Zealand, but citizens of the world. And so And it's a really good thing, Any thoughts And have you thought what you might take away personally, Um, and in the work you do or your more public involvement community and the rest of it anything in particular that that this these last few days of I think for for me [00:10:00] and being a facilitator at Wa youth is just getting the information I've learned from this conference and just, um, giving it out to, um, those younger students and and, uh, peers in Hamilton and and saying, Hey, look, these are some of the awesome things that I've learned. Um, I I want to share it with you and hopefully you learn something from me and just, you know, creating that that bank of knowledge within that community so that it keeps growing and growing [00:10:30] I for for me, I'm gonna take away, like, a better understanding about what it means to be, um, a queer person and a a more a better understanding of how I fit into it. And, um, also the good thing about this is that every point someone makes it makes you think you're not sitting there and just listening to someone drawn on. You're actually sitting there listening to someone who has had experience [00:11:00] in this area and who's done studies and all this kind of stuff, and it really triggers your triggers, your thinking. You just keep on coming up with ideas and and new ideas. Um, I know yesterday I was sitting in, um in all the workshop, different workshops to do with education, and I jotted down about 20 pages of notes and you know half of them, half of them were triggered from an idea that someone someone, one of the people speaking and said And I came up [00:11:30] with something that could relate to, um um the youths that attend Waki or facilitators or, you know, um, our culture kind of thing. So it's really just cut going away with an intent, a good knowledge, a good in depth knowledge and a good understanding of what it means to be LGBT. I think I've I'm improving my understanding of the gay community from this, um [00:12:00] being exposed to a lot of ideas that you generally wouldn't hear about in the media or school. Like Like he enormity like I've never really heard about that until, like, briefly at but and deeply here, and it's been pretty good, like it's it's a good base for me because I wouldn't say I'm an expert on all of these things, but it is a place for me to start. [00:12:30] I think that that networking, um I mean, we we do a lot of that within our own circles, and, um, we do go away to local conferences which hopefully we will again this year. But It's just the the feel of having a load of Australians come over and and other cultures around that have presented. And it's just saying that it's not all that different as well. I mean, it may not be exactly the same, but it's also they're facing the same problems that many [00:13:00] of our, um students are facing. So it's just there is that innate problem that is there. I mean, yeah, so that's that's cool. But I mean, the things that we learned from this conference, we hope to take it away to the local conferences that we do do. And that would be quite excellent, like we've got coming up soon. And, um, we we might be hosting a conference later on this year. Um, so it's it's for youth [00:13:30] by youth, so that's pretty much where our core is and where we want to keep going. So these guys are the next next next sort of leaders within, Um, when we start getting a bit too old and he goes, you know, and we just keep rolling through. And as as long as we keep the flame alive that you know, there were these people who used to be us or used to be the youth. And now I have moved on, and this just needs to keep going. So we get the awesome conferences like this [00:14:00] making it Pacific and sure, if you can Yeah, I mean, in itself is based on, um, the Maori principles of strength and unity. And and that's basically what you do, you queer youth in New Zealand need is, um, having the strength to be able to surpass those those obstacles is thrown in in in your way. And, um I mean, these guys are exam Great examples of those who have come through and, you know, become really [00:14:30] good citizens of the GL BT community because they are being proactive about learning and then passing on that knowledge to the next generation, as we have done.

IRN: 353
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_isikeli_vulavou.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004197
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089491
TITLE: Isikeli Vulavou and Sulivenusi Waqa
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Isikeli Vulavou; Sulivenusi Waqa
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Fiji; Isikeli Vulavou; Sulique Waqa; Sulivenusi Waqa; human rights
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Isikeli Vulavou and Sulivenusi Waqa from Fiji talk about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Thank you. Hi. I am is Kelly. And, uh I am from Fiji and I am here representing the male empowerment network Fiji, where I whereby I provide, uh, volunteer assistance, particularly technical assistance. And this is a very new organisation in Fiji, Fiji stands for [00:00:30] males empowerment network Fiji. And it is a community based Ms M organisation that was established in 2008. I actually work for a United Nations agency back in Fiji and I'm here in my personal capacity as a volunteer for men Fiji, Uh, just to say more about men Fiji just to let you understand the context where [00:01:00] I'm coming from and also the reason I'm here men Fiji was established in 2008 by a group of professionals who work particularly in the area of public health. And it was established because of the recognition of the huge gap in HIV programming for MS MS in Fiji. And the focus of this organisation has been on HIV programming and there [00:01:30] has been, uh I mean, the human rights component of the programme has been missing because of the lack of capacity within the network of professionals who are also the management collective for men Fiji. So we thought that this conference was a golden opportunity for us to build our capacity around human rights and also learn more about what's happening around the Asia Pacific region. And we [00:02:00] have gained a lot that we will take back with us and hopefully we will be able to apply that in our programming and more importantly, secure funding for the human rights aspect of our programmes. Is funding a difficult issue? Uh, yes, we have not been able. There are not many funding opportunities available in Fiji for human rights uh, programmes and more so because [00:02:30] of the I'm sure you are aware of the current military government that is running Fiji and there is no National Human Rights Institute right now that is actively sort of addressing human rights abuses and issues that have been happening back in Fiji. And [00:03:00] we used to have one. I think Fiji was the first country that established a human rights commission in the islands, and, uh, since the military coup, they have sort of, uh, decommissioned that office. But now they're still running, but they are just like administrative staff. I'm not sure if they don't handle complaints anymore. I think there is No, [00:03:30] I mean what they used to do before. It's not happening now. They are not functioning like they're supposed to be a human rights commission where people can lodge their complaint for human rights abuses and all that, and for them to speak out on human rights abuses in the country. And obviously I know they've been silenced by the current political situation in Fiji, the military rule, and yeah, that's really sad. Which means that the LGBT community's work is more and then we have to push more in our country. And I'm sure as well as other Pacific Island countries. Surprisingly, [00:04:00] one good thing that has come out of this government is the decriminalisation of homosexuality. And I'm not sure where that emanated from, because we, I mean, I was not aware of any intensive lobbying being done, and most of the decrees that are coming out now some of them they have had, uh, substantive and comprehensive consultations with the communities before they are decreed and the penal code, I mean, it used to be the penal code. Now it's a criminal [00:04:30] decree crimes decree sorry. So I'm not so sure about the consultations that happened around that crimes decree, but one of the gains that the LGBTI community had, uh I mean, gained from this government is the decriminalisation of homosexuality. So that was one of the positive things that I thought this government has done for the community. I mean, at large. Do you know where that came from? Where that decriminalisation [00:05:00] push came from? They have been doing that in the past with elected governments. But when the military came into power, everyone stood silent. Even the the the non government organisations in Fiji. But out of the blue, the government just started to to to to remove the sodomy act from Fiji's law and abrogated the Constitution and came up with this human rights decree protecting the rights of sexual minorities [00:05:30] in the country. And we were like, OK, we are loving this country. But it's really you know, the process that they have taken is not really democratic, but somehow they've addressing. They've addressed some of the issues issues that would have been received a lot of resistance if there was a democratic government. If they have abrogated the Constitution the first institution that would stand up in Fiji and oppose this and have [00:06:00] a march on the street will be the church, the Methodist Church. But because of the the government, the military, they can't do that. Which is a good thing for the LGBT community. We they Probably because in the 1997 Constitution, uh, under which Democratic governments have been operating, there was a clause on. Yeah, I'm not so sure about this. Which section in particular where? There [00:06:30] was reference to, uh uh, the second anti discrimination laws for people from different ethnic backgrounds, racial backgrounds, including sexual orientation. So that was a big plus in the 2000, and it was the 1997 Constitution. I think Fiji became the second country in the world to have that clause that protects the rights of people [00:07:00] with different sexual preference. And that was a big move for Fiji, I don't know, but it's just weird how things have been going in the past. And, you know, it's just and even under that Democratic, uh, government And we had that clause in the Constitution and then we had, uh I mean, this actually came out prominently when they the Thomas Mask and [00:07:30] case Yeah, case whereby an Australian tourist had have had sex with the local and it was taken to the high court and the high court. Uh, I mean, they had convicted him in the at the Lower Court Magistrates Court, and then it was taken up to the high court where they had sort of, uh dismissed the case because, uh, I mean, they were not guilty [00:08:00] because the the judges had made reference to that particular clause of the Constitution. And there was widespread resistance from the religious community, particularly the Methodist Church. So that was done under democratic rule. But now that we are under military rule, they had sort of further rewarded us by removing the soda statutes from the former penal court, which is now the crimes decree. And we [00:08:30] now can. I mean, now they allow homosexuality. But in the privacy of your homes, you cannot do it publicly. Which is, however, on the other on the other side. The sad thing about all of these and the decriminalisation and everything, they have also impose tougher penalties on sex work. And to us, I was like you know you have decriminalised this and then we are trying to remove penalties on sex sex [00:09:00] workers in Fiji and now the military. So I heard prostitution is still a crime. Unfortunately, although they have made advance in some areas, I mean, when it comes to homosexuality, they still feel that prostitution is it's still a criminal act. So there has been a lot of work done in trying to address that, particularly because of HIV and AIDS programmes. [00:09:30] And it's that angle that NS and UN agencies and regional agencies in Fiji have been trying to use to try and decriminalise prostitution because of the increasing evidence that it will just further stigmatise the community and they will go underground. And then, of course, HIV will continue to spread if they don't access the services because of the [00:10:00] because of the context, you know, the legal context, not providing, not supportive enough for them to access the services that they will need. Sorry, following the decriminalisation of homosexuality in Fiji, there were a few other acts that came into force protecting the rights of sexual minorities. One would be the Employment Promulgation Act that restrict people from discriminating. You on the grounds at the workplace on grounds [00:10:30] of sexual orientation, which is basically you cannot be fired if you're gay and they cannot discriminate you from getting to a high level. I mean, maybe a high civil servant position if you are gay. I mean, they now have that anti discrimination laws in that employment relations bill act. Sorry. So this a lot of progress that has [00:11:00] been made under the current military rule. And I must say that we are still surprised about the the decriminalisation of homosexuality because the lobbying for that has been done a long time ago. But it was only reflected in the Constitution, but our penal code was a cake. It's I think it was in existence for about more than 40 years or so. You know, when British rule was, uh, first came to [00:11:30] Fiji, so I'm sure they probably just, uh because of the current attorney General. He's probably quite supportive and understanding, too, of the you know, the latest trend when it also comes to those one sexuality. So they have been accommodating in that particular area, but it we still need them to strengthen the services, the human rights services [00:12:00] that the government or a national Human rights institute should provide to those who may still face discrimination, whether they stay at their workplace or anywhere. But you were saying earlier that even though it's been decriminalised that's in that that would be in private. So you would you have hassles if you were walking down the street or overtly homosexual publicly. Of course, even though decriminalisation took place, there are still [00:12:30] reports of, uh, I mean unreported cases of LGBT community being harassed on the streets. There has been deaths in the past as well and really, really bad. We have had instances in the past, I think, in the last year or 2009, 1 of our I mean a fellow a gay, a gay guy who works as a hairdresser, was murdered by young [00:13:00] kids in his own neighbourhood. It was reported in the media that he was returning from work at night, and these guys were probably drinking or something, and then they started hassling him, and, uh, they ended up killing him. So because of the absence of the national, uh, of a human rights institute, there was no way of addressing that particular issue that it could be a hate. I mean, [00:13:30] it's most apparent that it is a hate crime and, uh, unfortunately, we are sort of, um, helpless in that regard because of the absence of a mechanism or an active institute, National Human Rights Institute, where we could channel our concerns to address that particular issue. And I'm not sure, even by now where [00:14:00] whether those guys are behind bars or what's happened to them like no one has been able to take that up. No organisation either has been able to to take that up. And it was also probably because of the absence of NGO S that works, uh, with, uh the LGBTI community in terms of human rights because main Fiji when it came. Like I said [00:14:30] earlier, the focus has been primarily on HIV programming. But now we are starting to realise that even in HIV programming, you need to address also human rights issues. So that had also sort of changed our mindset that we cannot avoid human rights. Whatever the issues are. We have to also include that in our programmes and hopefully we would [00:15:00] receive funding that would enable us to strengthen the human rights component of our programme, which right now is absent. I mean, there's nothing really the network that you're a part of. How many people are involved in that? Well, uh, in the management, Uh, it has evolved over time. We had, uh, so many in the beginning and then, uh, we ourselves because we had the capacity within the organisation to organise ourselves ever [00:15:30] like to develop and strengthen the organisation. So we started with about 20 management collective members. And then over time, we had decreased it to seven. So that, uh, management decisions are done in a more systematic and strategic manner than having so many people on board. But otherwise those guys are still members of the organisation [00:16:00] and we have also been having membership drives on Facebook and also, uh, on the ground, we've been going to I mean, whichever events or activities we organise around the country, we've also tagged membership drives, uh, to the to those activities. And we are having our annual first ever annual general meeting, uh, in either in April or May whereby we will also use it as a membership drive. And also [00:16:30] we will call on our members who have registered already to be part of the annual general meeting as part of our effort towards, uh, registering men Fiji as an official charitable organisation in Fiji. What kind of activities do you undertake? Uh, due to limited funding, our activities has mostly been event based campaigns where we [00:17:00] develop behaviour, change communication products, materials such as posters, uh, water bottles, just like those that have been developed for this particular conference with the specific messages on them. Promote, particularly promoting condom use and uh, what are the activities activities subcommittee chair? Well, I just took the position this year. [00:17:30] Well, I'm still new to that. Like Keli said, I sit in as a member of the management collective for men Fiji as the chair of the activity subcommittee. On the other hand, I also coordinate the Fiji Transgender Empowerment Project under the Fiji Arts Council and one of our major activities for the for the project is the and Seal Pageant. It's Fiji's biggest annual drag show. It's held every year during hibiscus. Hibiscus is the premier festival of [00:18:00] in Fiji. It's the biggest festival in Fiji so and is probably the biggest event one of the biggest events in the hibiscus festival itself. So it's a crowd draws a crowd. More people come and watch the drag show than any other hibiscus events in Fiji. The themselves the hibiscus queens. That's one of my one of my main activities. I. I was the event coordinator for that year and this year, and we [00:18:30] got funding from UN Aid specific office. And yes, one of the other activities that I'm involved in is with the Citizens Constitutional Forum. We are doing a story on human rights abuse story, which happened way back in 2002 when a gay student in high school was beaten by six senior prefects for being gay. So this young person took the matter to court through the Fiji Human Rights Commission, and the six prefects were [00:19:00] sentenced to Well, they had to go through anger management and all that because they were minor. They couldn't go to jail. I was hoping that they would go to jail Well, and yes, I'm really looking forward to this out games conference because I want to learn more about human rights LGBT human rights issues in the Pacific and, um What? Uh what strategies are there? [00:19:30] Uh, that will enable us to effectively address human rights abuses in our country, not only address human rights abuses, but also promote human rights amongst our members. Because when it comes to human rights back in Fiji, like our members, the LGBT, they can be quite hesitant if we have that. In fact, that was the reason Men Fiji when we first established men Fiji, we thought we will focus on HIV programming. It will attract [00:20:00] more of our members to the programme rather because when it comes to human rights uh, the LGBTI communities, they still need to be empowered to embrace human rights programme. You know their own human rights rather than just going with the flow which has been existent from way before. So we need to go against the flow. I mean, there are many [00:20:30] things good that are happening, but there are other things also that we need to address. So we hope that this human rights component of the programme we will be, I mean and with funding with the appropriate funding, we will be able to raise the profile of the human rights programme within the man FIS programmes and empower the community by educating them on their own rights and also [00:21:00] provide a channel whereby they can approach appropriate services to air their grievances or concerns or complaints even as simple as verbal verbal abuse. I mean because we need to keep record of these things and a lot of this is happening, you know, verbal abuse on the streets or in school or even bullying in schools. And even like in certain [00:21:30] cases we have had deaths. It has proved it has even gone that far, resulting in fatal deaths. So we hope this will improve as we increase the profile of the human rights programme and also by the management collective themselves, also increasing their own capacity in human on human rights. We would also love to [00:22:00] see an increase of Pacific representations in Asia Pacific forums and conferences like this, and we are grateful to the Netherlands government for providing funding for that. But I still think that there is still a gap in terms of representation from the Pacific. It is clear that this conference I have noticed that this conference it's mostly a and the lady in Samoa and Tonga there is not representation. We there is representation [00:22:30] from the from Fiji mess. But what about our? The focus is Polynesian, and that is true. There has been incredible work done by other mess and micronesians LGBT movements out there that needs to be documented. That needs to be, you know, shared in these kind of conferences. And, uh, you know, that's that's still a gap in terms of Pacific representation. And I and I hope that [00:23:00] in the future, probably in the third and other future events of Asia Pacific, that that Pacific representation is, um is is there meaning at every from every corner of the Pacific and not just the Polynesia? And I'm really happy that the the art games has provided this opportunity for us, because otherwise, most of grievances on human rights is channelled through the HIV regional conferences. [00:23:30] We have never had any human rights, uh, regional conference. So this was a great opportunity for us to come and learn about human rights, what's happening in other countries in the Asia Pacific region and also gain from it, and we even we are here. We are already thinking about how we can go back and, uh I mean, apply whatever knowledge we have learned from here [00:24:00] to try and raise the profile of our programmes came back in Fiji. Apart from the activities that men Fiji and the Transgender Empowerment Project is doing, there is also the research that men is was meant Fiji's priority this year. So we have secured funding from the Pacific Response Fund, which is mainly funded by AusAID and New Zealand aid, [00:24:30] and we are using those funds for, uh for the implementation of an integrated behavioural and biological survey. So we are hoping that the results from that survey it's particularly on HIV and SDIS that the results from that particular research will enable us to um develop a [00:25:00] programme. It will inform our programme. It will also help us in the design, implementation, monitoring and evaluation of our HIV programmes. So maybe in the future, if we secure more funding, we will be able to also carry out a survey with quantitative or qualitative for human rights to just explore what human rights issues are there amongst the LGBTI community in Fiji. [00:25:30] And I think the survey is probably a landmark for our community as well as in the Pacific because this is the first survey in the integrated by her behaviour biological survey that is done in the Pacific Islands at, uh, specifically on MS M. And so this is really interesting distraction. We are looking forward to the results and the outcomes of the survey in July when it's going to be available for the public. So we are going to hope [00:26:00] maybe in the next conference we will be able to share some of the results from that survey. And also we would like to add that there is another organisation sent Fiji. It's a Vival advocacy network which is mainly made up of its A sex worker network, mostly transgender sex workers. So they've been also doing good work amongst the transgender sex workers in Fiji. So we have existing organisations that can [00:26:30] reach out to the community uh, out there, but, uh, we just need more funding. So what are the the biggest things that you will take away from this conference? What are the what are the things that stick in your mind? Well, for me personally, the Yogyakarta principle I attended that session, so I am like, I'm already thinking in my head. Now we are going to use this document as a guiding document for us [00:27:00] as we develop the human rights, uh, component of our programme because of the richness of the the information in that particular booklet, the Jakarta principle, and also they have an activist guide. So that should also I mean, I'm already thinking ahead and thinking I have to get hold of those documents and we are going to use that document to help to help [00:27:30] inform us on what strategies and what programmes we can develop to address the human rights issues that are prevalent in our country. And I had also gone to I'm also quite interested in, uh, how we can, uh, sort of instil a tolerance for me. Maybe we could start with tolerance, like, how could we increase tolerance amongst those [00:28:00] who are not LGBTI who don't belong to our community? Because I believe that for most of the countries, it has been tolerance and, like the Dutch ambassador had said for the Netherlands its tolerance that has made them live through I mean LGBT community that has enabled the LGBT community to live in, um cordial. I mean, It has been cordial, the [00:28:30] relationship between the LGBT community and the other, the other community. So that's one of the I mean, one of the things I'm thinking. Maybe we should even if we work with churches, it's not about accepting. I mean, it is probably if they can accept them, that's better. But if we work with the churches, we can just ask them. Probably when you have your sermons, you minister tolerance. I mean, focus [00:29:00] on tolerance for any type of, uh I mean, especially for this type of behaviour and maybe, I mean, for not for this type of people, I mean for the LGBTI mean for those whom they seem to them are different from them. So tolerance for that, uh, for the differences that are existing in our communities. And also, um, I've also attended the sessions on Queer Education in schools. [00:29:30] I think that it is very important that we educate the young ones as they are growing up, talking about tolerance to them and also them recognising the differences that are prevalent in our communities in terms of sexual identities. So it is important that we also work through the schools so That's why that's I think are the two things for me that I will take back. I mean trying to work with organisations [00:30:00] that are with the Ministry of Education and also regional organisation that has sexuality, education programmes in schools to try and work with us and help develop the resources and also probably help develop the capacity, especially the teachers, help develop the capacity around how they can teach sexuality and issues around homosexuality and the different sexual identities in the schools because these are our future and they would. [00:30:30] I mean, if we talk about this to them now, when they grow up, we could be like Netherlands and I'm sure the Netherlands has reached this point because they have done it very early earlier than us in most other countries. So of course, well, for me, this conference has pushed me further to do more work on LGBT and human rights in my country and to also continue the work that [00:31:00] I'm currently doing and yes, and I think that the LGBT community in Fiji are doing a great job and this is evident as we are the first Pacific island country to have endorsed the UN joint statement. I think that is a plus plus for our community in Fiji have pushed our government and our minister in the in the states to endorse this. And I think it's our community is quite powerful and the work that we do and we just [00:31:30] need to get the support from our neighbours Australia and New Zealand and yes, at the national level, we need to coordinate the work that we do because for now our focus is just primarily Ms Ms. But in this conference we have also learned about lesbians and we know the lesbian community back in Fiji is quite underground. They are not as vocal as us. So it's also sort of empowered us and also enable us to open our mind to also start thinking about how we can involve [00:32:00] the other the L, the B, the T, the LB. I'm not sure if we have intersect the ABC A and the bisexuals in Fiji, how we can involve them more effectively in our programmes and also like he has mentioned about the Pacific representation here, most of the emphasis seems to be on the Polynesian countries. So one of the things that I had discussed with joy from Tonga is for us to organise [00:32:30] the Pacific caucus today. So that is also one of the things that we I mean we are already moving because of this conference. We are also using this as an opportunity for us to discuss at the regional level how we can sort of collaborate further and also work in a more coordinated manner and also strengthen the capacity of the regional Pacific Sexual Diversity Network. Because currently I'm not so sure about what they are doing. But [00:33:00] we could all contribute to building the capacity of that particular regional network and also involving the lesbians bisexuals more in, uh in the discussions and sex workers. Well, the transgender sex workers, they are involved. But we could should involve them more in our programmes. One very quick last question. If somebody was listening to this in 30 years time, [00:33:30] what would you say to them? Well, I will uh, hopefully I hope that by in 30 years we will not be having specific conferences like this where we still have marginalised. We still have marginalised communities, minority communities. I hope that by then it's a utopian society whereby we had sort of fully integrated. [00:34:00] I mean, the different communities based on sexual identities that are in the community have integrated well among themselves and also with other with the majority population. 30 years time, I will be the first prime minister for Fiji, and we would be the first country in the Pacific island to legalise gay marriage, living peacefully and [00:34:30] harmoniously. I hope that by that time we would be everyone would be living peacefully and it would be more peaceful than it is now and then. There is no hostilities between the different communities, particularly on sexual identities, in the next 30 years. So embrace your sexuality and your identity, it's who you are.

IRN: 352
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_huhana_hickey.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004161
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089455
TITLE: Huhana Hickey
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Huhana Hickey
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Huhana Hickey; Wellington Town Hall; activism; disability; human rights
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Huhana Hickey from New Zealand talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Which is in the Waikato. Um, I am here because I was invited to the Human Rights Commission, and, um, it was to ensure that there was a or a disability perspective. So a group of us decided that, um, the G LBTT I community needed to also understand that it's not just about sexual identity. It's also about other identities and, uh, disabled don't generally get included. [00:00:30] So we decided it was time to start, uh, presenting our ideas and who we are and, uh, sort of let people know a little bit more about the fact that we are here, that even though they don't see us, we exist. And, uh, we are in bigger number than many realise. So what were some of the ideas you've presented at the conference? Well, yesterday that was more around, um, access to, you know, to access to health and well being. And it was also around transgender identity. So I was a token real [00:01:00] female, I guess, among the bunch, if that's if there's any such thing as a real thing these days. But, um, I was and the others were, um, identifying from their own sexual identity. But, um it was around the access to, um, being able to access health what that meant. And, um regardless of our identity. And we were all of the same conclusion that discriminated existed, discrimination existed based on the fact our disabilities meant we were often discriminated. So our sexuality, regardless of what that was, would be a discriminatory [00:01:30] factor. Anyway, we would be medicalized at pathology existed. And if you were transgendered, it existed twice over. So once you were identified as disabled, then if you were transgendered and disabled, that was another, um, two part discrimination. So, you know, you had all those issues and then the issues around sexuality were huge as well. And having the fraternity want to medicalize sexuality. So, you know, when did it stop? It was whether you were gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender. Uh, intersex [00:02:00] meant that, uh, you know, and and to have a disability. On top of that, you were so used to medicalization that it it becomes a part and parcel of your life. And yet we were talking about deep pathologize, which, uh, is probably time to now start challenging for that. And how did the delegates respond to that? Very Well, um, it was a very lively debate, and I think the discussion really came out with questioning. I know that Philip, um, Patton will probably have had his own discussion on that, but he he has [00:02:30] a concept of being uniquely different or uniquely diverse and being uniquely functioning in our own bodies. And the fact that to be common is so well is the old term normal is so uncommon and that we are uniquely in every single sense terms. So no two people are alike. So you know, even if you don't have a disability, there's still going to be something about your identity that stands you out as being unique and that we need to celebrate that Not so much our diversity. That should be a given. [00:03:00] Um, but our our uniqueness is a part of that pattern, and we need to make room and accommodations for some uniqueness where accommodation is not easy around disability or around trans identity. Um, if it is that you want to have your meetings above stairs, you've got to make sure there's a lift available. Um, if it is that it's a forum for women mainly and a trans female to male is wanting to come along. Then they should have that accommodation made. Instead of creating the barriers, we should open the doors. [00:03:30] It's interesting. One of the comments I remember Philip making was that in the space of five minutes, he can go from abled to disabled, depending on the environment. Absolutely. I mean, you know, I can be in one minute. I can be in a courtroom completely and utterly in an environment of complete, a complete access. And then I might just go down into the district Court. I can't access the toilets. So all of a sudden I've become a disabled citizen, not one of the lawyers, Um, you know, um, trying to do my job [00:04:00] and it's, you know, we can be in one place even here. You know, I can be here, but there's no obvious, um, signs about where the accessible laws are or where you can go to access the lift to get to the different levels. It's it's, um, you can go into an environment. But unless it accommodates your diverse needs, such as sign language at the conference, I mean, there's a big, deaf community that, um, identifies G LBTT I and, um they're not here. And there's silence and I mean that that's a poignant term [00:04:30] silence because that community did not have any sign language interpreters here. So why would they come? So we don't We can't help it. Even in our own quest for inclusion, we exclude and we do it no matter who we are. If we're Maori, we often do it if we are. If we're, we often do it. If we are women, we do it for men. We do it. If we're disabled, we do it non disabled. We do it. Whatever it is, we tend to exclude somebody. And how do we bring about a fully inclusive society? And we've really got to start [00:05:00] looking about how we make spaces fully inclusive for everyone and not for some. It's interesting in passing right at the start, you mentioned token. Is that something that you feel that you're that you're a token? Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, it was a joke. Um, because I was the only woman on the panel that was obviously female, and, uh, probably because one of the other speakers couldn't make it and her name was Alison, and, uh, she would have been fantastic as a trans, um, female with a disability, she would have been a fantastic [00:05:30] speaker. But, uh, that's the difficulty sometimes is how do we stop the tokenism? I mean, I notice up in the lesbian stories. It's wonderful having them there, but we're the disabled lesbian speaking it. If there's an Aussie, there's a Kiwi or a Jewish American Kiwi lesbian, and there's a Maori, But, uh, there's no Aborigine, there's no disabled and, you know, and it just strikes me that we still inadvertently exclude, and we don't. I know we only have a set amount of time, but we also need to talk about how [00:06:00] we bring all the community together, not just some. I'm just wondering how many, um, disabled people are actually participating in the conference. And have there been things that they could have possibly done better to actually be a more inclusive Well, there's only two wheelers. I notice there's one on sticks. Uh, others will have a hidden impairment. Um, which is mental health. Um, they're not always going to be out. So we're minority within a minority within a minority, so I mean more [00:06:30] could attend if maybe it was made more available. Uh, it's very difficult for disabled to travel. Um, because public transport isn't always the best access. Um, if you've got a couple by air or by train or whatever way you've got to have the funds and so financial is huge because if you're living on the IB or the invalid benefit, then you are, you know, financially hammered. There could be scholarships, you know, possibly as a way forward for different groups that are particularly marginalised. I don't see a lot [00:07:00] of youth here. I'm very young, you know, And that community is huge. And yet I'm not seeing a big the all of them here. I'm seeing a lot of older people, but maybe I'm at the wrong conference because, you know, it would be good to see some of the youth because they think differently. And it would have been really good to see some of the youth on the panels, because I think we would have gotten an entirely different perspective. Whereas I'm getting old and you know, the young ones, like my son who's a young out man, um, has a different perspective to what I have. He's more inclusive on things. His friends [00:07:30] doesn't give a shit what race they are, what their able ableness is what their, um, sexual orientation is. He cares about their friendships and who they are as a person. That's the kind of thinking we need to be learning from. And maybe we need to focus a little more. I mean, often, we were too youth oriented. Um, we do have, you know, um, elders now that fight for their rights. But we're the youth. We've got a balance, and we haven't found that balance yet. So what do you want to take away from this conference? [00:08:00] Well, that's a hard one. I come in as a minority. I'd like to take away that people are listening, and I'd like to take away that people are gonna learn. And I'm kind of hoping that if I manage to make it to another one, that, um I will go, I will come along. And I won't need to be the token, or I won't need to participate other than to be there to participate. Um, that maybe I can come along as a spectator rather than always as a speaker or, um, you know, and it's fully accessible without it being an issue. [00:08:30] It's very interesting. I think one of the things said in your session was about it's very easy to label your organisation or what you're doing. LGBTI um, without actually practising it. Yeah, I mean, it is easy. I mean, do we really turn around and embrace our brothers and sisters? I try. I've got a lot of friends from all sexual orientations, genders, identities, and I try and embrace it myself in my own life because you can only live by example. [00:09:00] But if all of us did that, we'd probably have a better example in life. But we don't all do it, because sometimes we get afraid that all they might out. So, you know, let's not get too close. I don't give a shit, you know. And I think it's about time People realise that in the same way that people, some people here, actually, I've noticed, I I'm as invisible here as I am out in the street, and it's incredible. Some people don't really see you until they're right on top of you, and you're almost reeling them over and That's because they don't want to see [00:09:30] you. Because sometimes with disability there's something that frights about you. It's not me. It's what's within themselves. And, uh, they don't like to face up to that fact that there might be something there that they need to address. And so I'd like them to stop keeping us invisible, make us alive, make us there and present us as a people that they can call us friends rather than, um, want seeing us as an irritant or a skin rash. Really? Hm. [00:10:00] Now, looking ahead, 30 years, if somebody's listening back to this in 30 years time, what would you like to say to them? Well, I'd like to say I hope that it's making you laugh and go. My God, those old people, they were really backwards back then. You know, I, I would like because I came out well over. I'm Well, I'm old now, Um, but I mean, I came out well over 30 odd years ago, so I guess I'd be looking back to forwards back then. It was in hiding. We would get raped. We get beaten, you know, we were too scared. And sometimes, [00:10:30] even though Even if we were brave enough to come out, we would risk the beatings, you know, and that because we would want to be who we are, and you'd have to pass as a straight person wherever you went or get married. I'm hoping in 30 years time that my grandchildren, if my son will bother to get me some. Um, you know, I only ask for that. I don't care that he's gay, but I want I want grandchildren OK that my grandchildren, if any of them are, are gay or transgender or transitioning that they can turn around and say Thanks, Na. At least you were brave [00:11:00] enough to say that it was OK. And at least you are brave enough to say that I'm OK for who I am and that you accepted me and that if I've passed by them, which I probably have that they can look back and have a laugh, because isn't it about the memories of the people that meant something to them? And, you know, I'm hoping that it's antiquated by the time they get there that they have moved forward. I'd be sad that if they are listening to this and going, My God, it's still happening. I'd really be sad to hear that, because that tells me that we're not [00:11:30] that when we're too apathetic in this community. So move it, shake it and change it. That's simple.

IRN: 351
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_hiroyuki_taniguchi.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004160
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089454
TITLE: Hiroyuki Taniguchi
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Hiroyuki Taniguchi
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Hiroyuki Taniguchi; Japan; human rights
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Hiroyuki Taniguchi from Japan talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is I'm from Japan. Uh, I'm a a legal researcher. So, uh, I'm I want to know about how, uh, the, uh, many countries reacting about the LGBT human rights and, uh, want to exchange many opinions with, with many activists and many researchers. What similarities and differences have you found [00:00:30] through through being at the conference? Well, as you know, the Japan has no, uh, Japan don't don't have a sodomy law, And, uh, but many countries have that law that such kind of law. So, um, I think the main difference between the many countries and Japan or uh, East Asian countries is like is a absence of the sodomy [00:01:00] law, because many countries and many presentation says that they started to act as a rep repeal the sodomy law. But we don't have such kind of law, so we we have no, uh, we we don't have any start point to, um, legal reform. So what is the human rights status for gay lesbian transgender people in Japan at the moment? Um, well, there are, [00:01:30] um there are no law in Japan like a nondiscrimination law, except for a very broad, um, article in the Constitution, but that cons uh, the Japanese Constitution does not recognise the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender people as a non disc, the target of the discrimination some some kind of, uh, law, [00:02:00] uh, referring about transgender in Japan. But no, uh, no legislation, uh, referred to the lesbian, gay, bisexual people. So does that mean you can still be discriminated in Japan if you are gay or lesbian or transgender? Um, that is a big, big, big difficulty because, like, we don't have such severe, um, [00:02:30] severe hate crime. We we don't We don't have such severe hate crime or the violence in Japan, but, uh, the social attitude is very against to the to the LGBT people. Uh, especially in the in the coun countryside area. Can you foresee changes in Japanese law to to add anti discrimination [00:03:00] legislation for LGBT people? Yeah, I, I I'm doing doing a doing a lot lobbying. I'm lobbying with my, uh, fellow activist to pass the legislation about the anti discrimination law in general and that that anti discrimination law should, uh, include, uh, discrimination based on sexual orientation, gender identity. [00:03:30] But so far there is not succeeded. Do you have examples of, um, gay or lesbian or transgender people being discriminated against. Uh, for example, the, like the same sex partner cannot, uh, have a have a social benefit or social insurance as a partner because they are not [00:04:00] legally recognised as a couple. So, uh, that is 11 of the one of the big problems in Japan and also the if the people are discriminated against based on their sexual orientation on the gender identity, they are very fearful to, um to come out to to to to to, um, say that they are on these communities because of because [00:04:30] of their sexual orientation and gender identity, because the social acceptance acceptance is not enough in Japan. And so it is quite difficult to, um, to claim their discrimination to the public officials or even their family or their friends at at the conference. What of the main things [00:05:00] you've been interested in? OK, uh, I'm interested in the the the intersectionality of the issues, like the people from the many countries have many different, uh, different problems and on different issues. But that that that is, uh, very connected each other, like the people from the Pacific Island and, [00:05:30] uh, the the cultural difference and the disability issues and the indigenous people's issues. And so, uh, they are very com combined and and issues. So the the issue of LGBT is a not not only the LGBT issues but various issue of the human rights itself. Have you ever been discriminated against in Japan? [00:06:00] Uh, in my experience, uh, for fortunately or unfortunately, I don't know, But I, I I don't have any discriminated because, fortunately, my parents are very tolerant people, and they are very accepted. My sexuality and my friends is also supportive [00:06:30] for my, uh, for myself. But, um my my Oh, yeah, for example, my my partner, my partner, is a, um how can I say, uh, it's a kind of close it. Close it. He he doesn't come out for his family and his friends and his company. So he is very, uh, suffer from many, uh, you know, he he fears that, uh, that, [00:07:00] um, my II I am the as a researcher. I'm, uh, come out as a, uh my my my name in the newspaper and some papers. So, uh, and my face is on the newspapers or some other books. So whenever, whenever I I go out with my partner, my partner is very fearful that they if if the people [00:07:30] saw my face and my partner, uh, that that they are, they suspect that their partners and it it is a kind of outing. Is there a similar thing for same sex marriage in Japan, like civil unions or something similar? Not yet. Some activists, [00:08:00] some activists, are very active for lobbying the parliament to enact the legislation. But some activists are are opposed to that legislation, you know, because they are very fearful to, uh, to be included as a, um in a marriage system in Japan [00:08:30] because the marriage system in Japan is very, uh, discriminative for women. So many, uh, especially, um, many, many lesbian activists and lesbian, bisexual or transgender activists are opposed to the legislation. But now, uh, the people are thinking that, uh, we, uh, as you know, we we are facing [00:09:00] in a tragedy in Japan and, uh, some some of the, uh LGBT people living in the in that area in the Tohoku area is suffering from their life. But the the partner who lives in outside the Toho area cannot access to them because because they are not legal family. So the government or the the medical institute [00:09:30] are informed their relatives, legal, legal, family or legal relatives that they are safe or they are dead. But, uh, the same sex partner cannot access such kind of information at all. So now it's a very, um, people living in in Japan, the LGBT people living in Japan, uh, seems to take it seriously [00:10:00] to to legalise the same sex partnership. And the very tragic event that you're mentioning is is the magnitude nine earthquake and tsunami that that's just hit hit off northern Japan. But now, now, I I'm, uh during this conference, I'm gathering many informations from LGBT activists in Japan, and they try to, um, try to persuade [00:10:30] the government officials to support for LGBT people or to get information even if they are not legally a binding legal family. Did the earthquake affect your travel? Did you arrive in New Zealand prior to the earthquake or uh uh after after the earthquake? So I I have a little trouble because [00:11:00] the transportation in Japan is now very ill. So, um, but have happily I can come here, but I I'm I'm wondering I can go back. I go back on on Sunday, This Sunday, this week. Um, but I I'm wondering if the flight is right or not. What do you think you will take away from this conference [00:11:30] when you go back to Japan? I, I think, uh, II I should inform the, uh, the LGBT activists in Japan. Uh, one thing is the, uh this this kind of, uh, international conference is very important to, uh, exchange your opinions and exchange information or, um, to take take courage from many other countries activists. [00:12:00] It's very good opportunity for them. And the second thing is, there are, um unfortunately, there are, um, a few, uh, East Asian activists in this conference. Even this conference is Asian Pacific. So not not East Asian, East Asian, like Japan and China and Taiwan and Hong Kong. Korea is a very a few participant. [00:12:30] So, uh, we should do tell. Tell the people that this conference is very good opportunity for them to participate. Just one final question. If somebody hears this in 30 years time, if they're listening back to this tape in 30 years, what would you like to say to them I, I hope. I hope this things things going better gradually, uh, in in all over the world. So, uh, please [00:13:00] don't Don't forget that many people are struggling to, um, promote human rights or, uh, to to make things better, uh, to to organise this kind of conference.

IRN: 350
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_hesti_armiwulan.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004159
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089453
TITLE: Hesti Armiwulan
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Hesti Armiwulan
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Hesti Armiwulan; Indonesia; human rights
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Hesti Armiwulan from Indonesia talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, I am working with the Indonesian National Commission on Human Rights. Uh uh. I am, uh, one of a commissioner, uh, in, uh, my institution. And, uh, and I have a responsibility to, uh, take, uh, education and awareness of human rights. So one of our, uh, concern about the issue of human rights in Indonesia is [00:00:30] LGBT rights. So in my programme in this year, I would like to implement and campaign human rights, particularly for LGBT rights, and implement the yukata principle in Indonesia. What are the state of LGBTI rights in Indonesia at the moment? Actually, in Indonesia, we [00:01:00] have a number of organisations dealing with the issue of LGBT. But we still find difficulties because, uh, we have a culture and religion. Very, very strict. So we still, uh, still struggle to to to have, uh, not a knowledge about the human rights for the LGBT. [00:01:30] Is there much discrimination that goes on in Indonesia? Uh, yeah, I think Yes, because a majority in Indonesia is a Muslim. They are have a conservative value. They didn't recognise the per existence existences of LGBT people. So, uh, this is, uh, we [00:02:00] we we we still found discrimination stigmatisation and also, uh, violence. Uh, for them, for instance, my institution, Uh, uh, receive a complaint for the community of LGBT. Uh, a couple number of the complaint for them. Can you expand on what those complaints were? Uh, yeah. Uh uh. First complaint [00:02:30] about the local local regulation. Because in Indonesia, we have, uh, more than 400 local government. They have, uh, obligation. They have duty to to They have mandate to create their regulation. Local regulation. Sometimes the regulation stipulated [00:03:00] about the discrimination based on the gender identity and sex orientation. So they complain about the regulation to communist harm, and then we also receive complaint. Uh, they Sometimes they, uh, they found, like, attack attack from the police officer attack for the society attack for the [00:03:30] for From from the app apparatus. Officer. So many. Many? Uh, yeah. I think a number of the discrimination and violation, uh, they they they got it. And also, we we receive complaint from the domestic domestic area. Uh, lesbian got rape from [00:04:00] the from the from the family. Uh, the the, uh which mean? I don't know. Rape by by their parents to to Yeah, from from another case and pregnant about the rape. So many, many, many, many cases in Indonesia. Do you receive many complaints at the institution from lesbian and gay and transgender people? Yes. Yes. So, [00:04:30] uh, personnel and from the institution, they they bring their cases to my institution. So Indonesian National Commission of Human Rights, we have, uh we have mandate to investigate, uh, human rights violation in Indonesia. So, uh, yeah, uh, yeah. As well as, uh, human rights violation, Uh, based [00:05:00] on the gender identity and sex orientation. And what can your institution do if someone is found guilty of, um, discrimination or committing a crime? What can you do? Uh, yeah, in my country, uh, issue of the H LPT is still a sensitive issue in Indonesia. So we we we do something with [00:05:30] a process one by one, step by step, but make sure that they will. Someday they will get their rights. So the first my institution conduct training course training course for for the LGBT member LGBT community how to aware their rights because [00:06:00] I know that some of them are non educated. So we should have the programme to give human education for them the second one. We conduct a training course for the government officer because many times they don't know about, uh, human rights, Uh, for the [00:06:30] all people as well as, uh, uh, G BT person. And this the third one, we conduct also a training course for the law enforcement officer. So this is the first step from for my institution, the 2nd, 2nd step. Maybe we we will, uh, we will campaign. We will campaign to community about their rights. We will produce, [00:07:00] uh, like a leaflet book handbook to understanding about the existence of LGBT. Is there any opposition to your institution campaigning for gay and lesbian rights in Indonesia? Uh, yeah, of course. Uh uh, we we have we have a mandate for that. So but, uh, yeah, one problem may be [00:07:30] the problem of my institution. We have a limited budget in one hand. We have limited budget, and another hand scope of Indonesia is too large. We have 230 million population in Indonesia. It is too big. So we have a limited budget limited resource. So we would like to [00:08:00] have, uh, yeah, network and funding from, uh, another from from this conference. What are what are the main things that you will take away? Uh, yeah. This is, uh I, uh got some lesson. Learn from this conference and my challenge challenges [00:08:30] how to how to promote, uh, LGBT rights in my country. So I got it in this conference and I I saw this powerful of the of the of the movement movement of LGBT in many regions. So I think this is important to [00:09:00] make people in Indonesia understand about about this factual fact in the region. Is there a strong support network for lesbian and gay and transgender people in Indonesia? Yeah, I have a network. Yeah. Good relation and good network with organisation dealing with issue of LGBT in Indonesia in the national level, also in the regional [00:09:30] in the local level. Mhm has anything that been said at this conference that's really challenged some of your thoughts and ideas. Uh, yeah, because I already mentioned that I, one of the commissioners, have have a duty to educate and how to make people awareness about human right for [00:10:00] all, as well as to LGBT. So the conference gave me Yeah, challenge for me to to making my idea to be reality. If someone was listening to this tape in 30 years time, what would you say to them? A. Yeah, I think, as a human being, we should [00:10:30] promote and protect and fulfil human rights for all without discrimination as well as discrimination based on gender identity and sexual and OK.

IRN: 349
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_gurv_singh.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004158
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089452
TITLE: Gurv Singh
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Gurv Singh
INTERVIEWER: Jim Whitman
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Gurv Singh; human rights
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Gurv Singh from New Zealand talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Gigi Sing, and I work for a large organisation in Auckland, a local government organisation. And I've attended this conference to gain a better understanding of the issues around, uh, gay lesbians, bisexuals, transgender, uh, around their sexual identity and orientation in our organisation. We have a networking group for, um, our sexual orientation identities. [00:00:30] And that is, um, embedded with a number of members across the organisation in the region. So, in a way, this conference is trying to understand how we as a network group, can better facilitate in a large organisation and how we can get a voice across. Oh, that sounds very interesting. So you've been at the conference. You were there yesterday. Um, how did you find it? Interesting. Yeah, I had some really good speakers. Uh, good points. And you said it was quite interesting. [00:01:00] I mean, I think it was really good to get a diverse, um, perspective of how New Zealand uh, history has led to what we have come through. And sexual orientation and identity and a human rights approach to that. Um, some speakers were OK. Some speakers were great and it was a long day, so Yes, it was. It was. And I think by the end, we, um you know, we found that some presentations gave you valuable insight into how, um, different people [00:01:30] in our community relate to, um, human rights and how they've seen and experienced the issues that have come across, um, which gave me really good insight into how they are as you're different from each other, you know? So that's, um that's a professional impression for your work. Yeah. What about you as a person? Um, I found that, you know, I shouldn't be living in, um we find ourselves ticking in this box that we [00:02:00] find ourselves. We exclusive into this box, and we're not. We're part of a greater community. We're actually part of a, you know, more of a general community as well. And, um, I think understanding who you are as a person, um, and getting yourself outside that box is really important. So, personally, I felt that we always say we're gay and we tick this box, but we don't actually realise that, you know, we're part of a bigger gay community who is part of a general community, and we need to kind of look out for our peers as well. So that was really important.

IRN: 348
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_grant_robertson.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004179
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089473
TITLE: Grant Robertson
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Grant Robertson
INTERVIEWER: Jim Whitman
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Grant Robertson; Wellington Town Hall; human rights; politics
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast MP Grant Robertson talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Aspirations for the future. Uh, me personally? Yeah. And also and also for lesbians, gays, bisexual, trisexual, intersex people. Oh, look, I mean, I think the journey as I mentioned the journey towards a full sense of equality is a very long road. But I think that's the journey we've got to undertake. And we have to take all the steps along that way. And now I outlined the kind of legislative changes that have come through in the last few years around things like civil unions and and relationship [00:00:30] issues and, uh, birth deaths and marriages and all those sorts of somewhat small things, some of them. But there are the steps we have to take along what is a very long road. I'm optimistic. I think New Zealand is a fair people. Um, I know that other countries that are represented here today have much further to run. But here in New Zealand, I think that you know, I'm optimistic. I do think New Zealand is a fair people, but we've got to be vigilant and we've got to keep working adoption that's about that's a very sensitive area. It certainly is. But [00:01:00] in the end, if we create a policy where Children are at the centre of the of that particular, uh, issue. Then I think we'll come up with the right decisions. Making sure that the decisions are based on the best interests of Children in the end shouldn't have very much to do in the end with with the with the sexuality of the people concerned, as long as they are creating a loving, stable environment for people. I think that's right. And actually, we're in a situation now where even the current prime minister has said he supports the rights of gay couples to adopt. He's just not doing anything about [00:01:30] it. It's a difficult one. But actually, to be honest, the question with adoption is much bigger than the rights of same sex couples. We have an adoption act written in 1957 when all adoptions were closed options. We fast forward to 2011. All adoptions in New Zealand are open adoptions and there's nothing in legislation about adoption. There's nothing in the legislation about traditional Pacific adoption family adoptions. So we need We need an overall change to to to the adoption, so that's a broad [00:02:00] swath of Cultural Day and and and relationships and the entire way that we do adoptions. There's only around about 50 to 70 adoptions done in New Zealand each year now, anyway. But it is important that we ensure that we we set them up and have whole law reflecting where we are in 2011, including for same sex couples. And what's your aspiration? Me personally? Oh, look, I I'm this year. I'm very focused on winning Wellington Central again and then having having hopefully achieved that, um, I'd like to think that we'll be in government. And, [00:02:30] you know, I think I think most people who go into politics or going to a central government politics want to be ministers because that's how you affect change. And so, you know, of course I want to do that. And then from there, we'll just take it one step at a time. I can't change that.

IRN: 347
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_graeme_kane.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004157
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089451
TITLE: Graeme Kane
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Graeme Kane
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Australia; Graeme Kane; human rights; mental health
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Graeme Kane from Australia talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So, Graham Kane, Um, I'm a counselling psychologist from Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Um, the out games conference. I initially enrolled as a runner, and so I ran that on Sunday and got a silver in the five K. So very happy about that in terms of the conference, Um, one of my roles, as as a counselling psychologist, is I'm the secretary for the gay and lesbian issues in Psychology interest group for, um, Australian Psychological Society over in Australia. And, [00:00:30] um, I submitted two papers. So the two papers I submitted one is gay men are more than their bodies and the other is looking at ethical guidelines for trans individuals. So should we take the first paper first? What? What's that about? The first paper is, um yes. How does statistically say it? Um, it's a It's a look at the two dominant paradigms that typically represent gay men and research gay men. And one is that gay men are obsessed with being thin and youthful, and the other is that they are obsessed [00:01:00] with being muscular and trim. And when you look at the research, certainly there are individuals that will have that obsession, but not necessarily as widely distributed as some people claim. And so what I did is look at the evidence and start to get a sense that the research and there's quite there's quite a lot over the last 25 years wasn't as robust as it should be. And so what I did [00:01:30] was interrogate the research and have written a couple of articles that have been published. And so I'm presenting on some of my research and I'm a practitioner. So I come in from an angle of someone who sees a couple of 100 people a year as a clinician and looking at the and challenging some of the paradigms. I'm challenging the thin and the muscular paradigm. Not to say that, that that men aren't interested in their bodies. It's just that we're [00:02:00] more than our bodies, which is the title of the paper. So as a clinician and seeing two or 300 people a year. What are the main issues that are coming up for those people? Um oh, it's a broad range, Uh, and like the number one is always going to be relationships. It's going to be who you are in a relationship to your family, your friends and, um, as well as work. So the the [00:02:30] number one issue is, uh, relationships that I find and you you can kind of branch out from that. Some people might have some issues with anxiety or depression. Um, certainly you've got, you know, the typical coming out issues, or, um, you know, you get the odd body image issue as well. So the, uh, the issues are diverse, but it's all about who I am. And where do I exist in this world. Is that any different from a straight mainstream group of people coming to a Councillor? Uh, what I found And [00:03:00] I'm 45 and I've been doing this, you know, coming up to the, you know, my second decade. Um, and I have a huge, uh, a significant, uh, heterosexual straight population. And the issues are very much the same. Um, well, 11 of my jokes is the icing may look different, but the cake is still the same underneath. That's kind of one of my little catch phrases that I made up for this week to annoy my partner with. So, um, you know, every time it'll we'll try to talk about some unique or distinct thing. I'll turn around and say, Well, the icing may be different, [00:03:30] but the cakes still the same. So, you know, heterosexuals have the same thing in terms of, uh, fidelity in relationships that they're no longer going to be with. Or how do you negotiate that? Um, how do you negotiate separation? Um, how do you manage your careers and juggle all those things? They're no different from same sex attracted couples or opposite sex attracted couples. So in Australia now, what do you think the biggest human rights issues are for queer communities? [00:04:00] Oh, the 10, there's a long number. Um, look, I think, certainly, um, marriage and kids. Um, but again, I look, I like always to challenge myself. Is that because I'm middle aged and so as a middle aged man, mine's always you know who's who is middle class, and he's very comfortable, you know, he's got the house, got the partner, You know, my my next issue is a marriage and kids. So, uh, do I see that through that particular lens? And I would suggest yes. And so and, um, actually, [00:04:30] I want to be very topical. here. Do you know what I think? One of the biggest issues for for all of us. How do we actually act out diversity? Because we talk about it and it's on the radio. It's in our media. But in terms of when we start to make jokes, we we go back to bias and stereotypes. And and so when you when you someone will say, Well, typical lesbians are pragmatic, All the all the gays are very, um, creative and I. I wanna kind of challenge those stereotypes because I can't shop for shit. You know, when I go [00:05:00] out and buy clothes, I have no idea. You know, I, I I'm not and I have power tools. So what am I a closet le lesbian or something? So in terms of if I was to say from our community, the issue is to embrace diversity and live it and breathe it and walk it rather than just give it lip service. So, um, that's my challenge, um, to to us in terms of actually, um, walking and breathing and living diversity. As we proclaim. We, um we are. And so then my challenge to you would be how Do you do that personally? [00:05:30] How do I do that personally? Oh, good. As in me individually. Personally, Um oh, I have a very robust relationship with a partner that keeps me honest as well as friends. I think that's how you actually do it. So that when when you, um, start to believe your own rubbish, you know, someone will come along and kind of like, you know, say, excuse me, Uh, there are some, uh, inconsistencies in your attitude and opinion on what you're actually doing, and it's always really healthy to not only be a deliverer of feedback, [00:06:00] but also to receive it. And I think in terms of one of the things I always work hard at, you know, as a psychologist, I'm giving people my professional opinion. It's always nice when someone gives you their personal opinion back, and that's the hard thing to actually integrate it to actually take on board when someone actually gives you a challenge back that you're inconsistent. Is it hard as a psychologist to actually switch off from that kind of whole observational kind of counselling role? I think [00:06:30] Look, young psychologists are psychologists. Every breathing second of their lives. I think as you get older, you get a bit fatigued and a little bit disinterested at always looking at people. So, you know, I think everyone has a capacity to make interpretations of themselves and each other. Mine's just scientifically based, and we're not always interpreting or assessing other people. Um, however, uh, how easy is it? I. I think it's pretty easy [00:07:00] unless it's pretty much in your face and pretty obvious. Or so do you find, Um, there is any difference between a straight group of people and a queer group of people in terms of accessing health services, particularly like, say, mental health services. Um, I think it's always, um, bang for Buck. Like the bigger cities, you're going to have more options. And, um, you have those that want more anonymity anonymity? You want those that want, um, gay lesbian transgender identified [00:07:30] the, um I think the smaller cities are people are gonna struggle with that. So in Melbourne, where I live, you know, people from Geelong and rural Victoria will come up, um, to the gay identified. But then the difficulty with that is that it can take, you know, 4 to 8 weeks to get an appointment. So it's all those kind of challenges and obstacles as well as opportunities. The, um, segue into my second presentation Very good. [00:08:00] The, um, the I'm. I'm looking at proposing ethical guidelines for Australian psychologists because there's one at the moment I'm working with gay, lesbian bisexual clients, which basically means that you need to do so in a respectful, competent manner if you're a psychologist and so that in a sense, sets a standard, and if you don't do so that there could be some consequences for you. I'm endeavouring to advocate for a transgender guidelines to be, uh, recognised and legitimised within Australia so that, [00:08:30] um, you know, it's gonna be a challenge and an uphill battle so that to get it endorsed at that high level, such that all 27,000 psychologists need to be attentive to those particular issues. So in terms of mental health at the in, working with an individual practitioner and looking at psychologists, it's always good to kind of set the bar and always constantly reviewing and setting that bar higher and higher. So that's it in the summary. [00:09:00] I'm interested to know why will it be a challenge. Why is it so difficult to get that passed in terms of vulnerable groups? It's just critical mass. It's like anything. The more you have, the more you're going to be heard so that in terms of gay lesbians and bisexuals in Australia, given the critical mass, they can turn around and say, Well, this is our expectations. This is what we want in terms of transgender being a vulnerable group. I think one of the speakers [00:09:30] this morning was talking about a vulnerable group within the vulnerable group, et cetera. The challenges with that is that when you're dealing with a smaller population, it's lower on the agenda. It's lower on the priorities and where things are always being prioritised. How do you actually say yes? This is only a small group of people, but it's still important. And that's the challenge. So how many psychologists in Australia are going to be providing psychological [00:10:00] services to trans clients? I don't know what that number is, so that's part of the challenge to say that to legitimise it, to say that this is important, that's the challenge. Now I've been using the word queer, um, all the way over the last couple of days. But what words would you use for myself? Well, for myself, I'd say a gay man. But when working with clients terminology is is huge. And that's one of the things that I've done in both the ethical guidelines one that's actually [00:10:30] endorsed and the other that I'm I'm putting forward and that is that you need to check, um, with the person, the terminology that they're comfortable with. You may have someone that, um, has an incredible resistance to that kind of terminology. Or, um, I would say to you, as a 45 year old man, the gay aspect probably represents 5% of who I am. Probably when I was about 18 19, it was probably between 90. So, in terms of where people are in their [00:11:00] life, where they are culturally socially, um, politically, economically they're gonna have different ways of expressing who they are. So some I. I see myself more as a partner and a psychologist than necessarily a gay man have a higher priority, as well as an owner owner of a very demanding dog. So in terms of being a pet, a very responsible pet owner. That sort of features hugely in my life. Because every afternoon I need to walk that particular creature. [00:11:30] So this conference, uh, what do you want to get out of it? Um, I suppose a couple of things. The, um I've got what I wanted. The opening was just sensational. You know, in terms of the, uh, both to be entertained to be challenged to, uh, be excited and to be, um Oh, I'm speechless. So that kind of gives you some sort of idea of just how, um, [00:12:00] it met. Met those needs to at a conference. You, you know, conferences. You don't won't necessarily like everything you hear or see. But the opening was, um it was warm. It was intelligent. It was as cheeky as all hell. Some of the presenters were hysterical. They had me in fit. But it was also, um, poignant And the and the pathos and and the diversity not only of the presenters and their issues, but also the crowd. So, you know, I'm happy I got what I wanted. So, um, [00:12:30] I know for some other people, it's about connections with a whole range of people. Um, as a psychologist, I don't necessarily go to human rights conferences. So that's this is all this is a first for me. And, um, yesterday I set in a, uh a workers' rights. Now, I'm not I'm not I'm not a unionised member of any workforce. So, um, it was it was quite a pleasure to sit in there and go Oh, OK, you know, learning. Alright, that's it. In a in a nutshell. Learning. How's that? That's great. If we were to look 30 years ahead and somebody's listening [00:13:00] back to this as an archival recording, what would you like to say to them, um, have have have we How far have we advanced? If we gotten any further, uh, how do we how do we manage our domestic petty domestic concerns? And have we, um, gotten over that And how inclusive and diverse, um, are we have we moved from lip service to actually, uh, walking the talk. And there are some of the reflections I'd ask people to consider.

IRN: 346
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_grace_poore_and_satya_rai_nagpaul.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004191
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089485
TITLE: Grace Poore and Satya Rai Nagpaul
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Grace Poore; Satya Rai Nagpaul
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Grace Poore; Satya Rai Nagpaul; human rights
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Grace Poore and Satya Rai Nagpaul talk about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: What brought me to the conference? I was invited, uh, by, um, rainbow Wellington, uh, to come and speak here. And then I also submitted a workshop, So I'm doing a screening this evening. I did a workshop yesterday, and I'm going to be speaking at the plenary on Friday morning. What was the workshop on the workshop? Um was basically about a campaign that my organisation International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights [00:00:30] Commission is trying to get off the ground, and it's built around a video called Courage unfolds. So yesterday I showed a trailer and talked about the campaign, tried to get everybody buzzed up about it, uh, and basically talked about what the Yogyakarta principles are tried to deconstruct it from this legal document to something that is activist friendly and why it's relevant for LGBT activism in the API region. Is it possible to go very briefly through [00:01:00] the principles? Um, as you know, there are 29 principles. Uh, they were developed in 2006 by, um, experts from all over the world. 29 experts, 25 countries. Um, and they happen to be in Yogyakarta, Indonesia. Um, that's why it's called the Yogyakarta principles. Um, and basically, what they are is the 20. They they lay out the rights that all people [00:01:30] should have, including LGBT people, from the right to freedom of expression. The right to housing access to health care, right to education, Right to privacy. Uh, you know, right to protection and equal protection under the law. Um, you know, right to a fair trial, all of the things that everybody else, right. Um but the nice thing about it is that it it says these are rights that need to be accorded to LGBT [00:02:00] people and that people should not be discriminated against on the basis of their sexual orientation and gender identity. So along with those rights, they lay out guidelines on how people can implement those rights. So that's the good thing about it. It's a great tool. And it's not just for governments, you know, it's it's for NGOs. It's for employers. It's for, you know, educational institutions. It's [00:02:30] for the UN. It's for all of these institutions. So I think in that sense, uh, activists can say OK, we're gonna take these and turn them into a campaign, or we're gonna use these and work with our national human rights institution. Or we're gonna take this and try to get our anti discrimination bill passed. Or we're gonna make it part of a curriculum in schools where we're teaching people about human rights and we want to include this, so it really has very practical value to it. So I was trying to get people excited about the principles [00:03:00] about the campaign about the video. And then tonight I'm just gonna have a screening of the film. And then on Friday, I'll be talking about movement building. Basically, Yeah. Yeah, basically, I came here to, uh, participate in a panel on health activism. Uh, last year we had the first trans healthcare meet in India. Uh, and this was post the Barcelona conference last year, which was, uh, which is where I met all [00:03:30] the trans guys here from New Zealand, who then invited me over. So my reason to come here essentially was one to be able to be on that panel for health activism and, of course, to meet all the Trans guys here and what was discussed on that panel. Basically, you know, the idea was to be able to see where the disability movement and the trans movement could find interlinks and work with each other to be able to talk about it, to be able to see where they are, what are the conflicts they are facing with the trans movement and vice versa [00:04:00] and where we can build bridges? What were some of the issues that were raised? Most of the panellists were actually I was the only non New Zealand Australian on the panel. So, uh, some of the issues which they were talking about and where they were in their movement building is very different from where what I was coming with. So one, for me, it was, of course, to sort of witness what were the issues internally within New Zealand and Australia on their movement building and to be able to see [00:04:30] what we're doing back home. Uh, essentially as far as the picture back home is that though we have disability activists back home and we have some people in the trance, we really can't call it a movement movement yet. But there are pockets of activism in the country when you say back home, which country in India. So there are pockets of activism, but we still have not been able to tie up even with each other. And being able to tie up with the disability sector is still, I think, some way away. [00:05:00] But it was very interesting to see the kind of stuff they're already dealing with because they're way up ahead, I think, in in their movement building. Uh, and it was Yeah. What were some of the things that really stuck out to you? Uh, I think, uh, for example, when I was listening to Hanna, who is a lesbian? Uh uh, person and an activist on on the disability movement. Uh, she was fantastic. Philip was fantastic. And the stuff that they were talking of essentially, uh, [00:05:30] were things. For example, she said that she didn't have access to this venue as she should have had as a disability person and which is something which is so age old, uh, in the in the disability movement, the one thing that they are always talking about is access to spaces. Philip said I could be disabled or absolutely able in a matter of five minutes, depending on what the society provides me in my environment. You know so stuff like that. I mean, I'm not talking of the larger [00:06:00] radical stuff that came up and the actual movement building conflicts between movements and stuff like that, but very basic stuff in terms of access, in terms of responsibilities, of others and how disability Just the concept of disability. How? He said, I have stopped using the word disability. Now, I use the word uniquely diverse and also to be able to, you know, to be also be able to say that, uh, I may be looking in a certain way A but it doesn't mean [00:06:30] that I don't get up in the morning thinking, Oh, I'm so disabled today. I get off my bed and I get on with my day as you get on with your day, you know? So that special status that we accord in itself is also problematic. But yet at the same time to say that the rights to be able to have access and the right to be able to have the rights is equally theirs. Uh, yeah. [00:07:00] And how does that tie in with the transgender issues? See? Basically a lot of things, um speci specifically from the health point of view. I think there are a lot of common grounds as far as health is concerned. For example, the idea of at a very at a very generic conceptual level the idea of the normal body, Yeah, as medicine or as health imagines normal body. And then from that idea of not [00:07:30] being normal comes idea of correction, you know, And, uh, that those that was one conceptual common link at a very pragmatic level. For example, the reproductive rights which neither the trans people have nor the people from the disability movement have so reproductive the right to have your reproductive rights is another common platform that we share with them. Now. You've both touched briefly on movement building, and that's something [00:08:00] to be discussed tomorrow. What? What will that session be about? Um, I know Sunil Pan is going to be speaking, and he's probably talking about, um, the movement in Nepal. Um, I'm actually going to to to sort of question or or examine the term movement. Um, because I think that there is a certain, um um expectation that we all operate from the same definition, but that's not true. Asia [00:08:30] is very, very vast. Um, a lot of history, a lot of political kind of landscapes are extremely different. And so, uh, people define movement differently. Sometimes people don't want to use the word movement because of what it conveys. Um, and even activism, I think, you know, has different meanings. So maybe looking at that and then, um uh, talking about, uh, the different models that people have [00:09:00] used in and highlight some of the countries in Asia, Uh, and then make some recommendations. I think that's what I would be doing. So has there been anything in the conference thus far that has challenged you in terms of either viewpoints or ideas? I was in a workshop this afternoon on, uh, interfaith and sexuality, and I don't know if, um, [00:09:30] some of the presenters just couldn't make it or what happened, but it turned out to be all white people and, uh, even even the person who was talking about, you know, um, Buddhism and, uh was someone who was talking at it from the perspective of a white gay man who had, you know, uh, decided to do the persona. Um, So [00:10:00] I found that to be rather disconcerting because I looked around the room and, um, I saw several people who are from other countries and cultures who probably came, uh, to hear different perspectives. Um, so that was a bit troubling. Um, I also noticed that, um, there appears to be an age differential. Uh, at the conference, Um, [00:10:30] and I'm not sure if you are feeling invisible here. I know there was a caucus. I know there's a workshop, but I don't know how people are feeling about that. Um, I noticed that on the in the plenary sessions. Um, yesterday's plenary, today's plenary didn't have youth. Although some of the people on the panel might argue that with me because they say, Who are you not calling youth? So I don't [00:11:00] know, but just looking they, you know, they didn't seem like you. And so maybe there might be some young people tomorrow, Uh, so I find that to be, you know, given that, uh, so much of the work that we do is is is is integrity linked with young how young people are organising, uh, and changing, you know, definition of movement, building also so that those are the two things I've noticed. Just to take the point further. Actually, from what Grace has already said, [00:11:30] I think a lot of other groups, like the Gender Queer people, are feeling a little in invisible and not being able to be comfortable. Even I think on the on the first day, which where we had a very specific, which was the Trans and Intersex Hui, even within that space, I think they felt a little marginalised. The gender queer people. Uh, but for me, the biggest challenge actually has been. Basically, I've been completely I The one thing that I keep that keeps coming to me every day is whether there's ever going to be a moment where we're going to have something like [00:12:00] this in a more reasonable context. Uh, because I feel that back, you know, though, we have a lot of work happening back in India and in Asia and South Asia. But to be able to I I was a complete I was almost driven to the point of tears, actually, on the 1st 1st day morning presentations because, I don't know, I kind of sensed a certain kind of history, a certain kind of intergenerational linkage, a certain kind of solidarity amongst various spaces here, [00:12:30] which I still haven't witnessed, uh, in any platform, uh, in a South Asian context. So I've been wondering whether we whether we will be though there have been surprises. We've had the reading down of section 377 in India, Uh, some time back, and it's come. It came as a surprise. But to be able to imagine that we we could have something like this in a more reasonable context and and when that would be possible. Uh, I can't still imagine it. [00:13:00] Yeah, looking ahead, if somebody is listening to this tape in 30 years time, what would you like to say to them? I'm hoping that we are not going to be having the same discussion 30 years from now. I'm hoping that we're not going to be fighting for the same things. Um, but I'd like to be optimistic. And I am, um but given how certain trends are [00:13:30] sweeping through different parts of the world, from religious fundamentalism to certain kinds of government backlash, um, you know, to a certain kind of complacency, I think people may feel that Oh, well, you know, LGBT people already have rights. We see them on TV now, and you know, they talk about things openly now. So, um, it must be OK for them. Um, and [00:14:00] that 30 years from now we might be We may not be back to square one, but that people would be still fighting for for some of the same things. Um, and that the forces that we are fighting against were so well resourced, uh, so well placed, um, that, you know, they would still be sort of putting barriers in our way. Um, which is one of the reasons I went to the religion [00:14:30] workshop. Um, I don't think they call it Religion Workshop. They might have called it Spirit Workshop or something like that, but, uh, the reason I went there is because I think religion is one of the major forces that can either help or hinder, And right now it's hindering. And I think that all those progressive voices and religion we are sitting back and silent either because they're afraid or because, you know, they're privately supportive. They should be playing the role a bigger role, you know, with us. Um, [00:15:00] And until that happens, I think that you know, the fringe? Uh, very well resourced fringe extremists in all of the religions are probably going to sort of make sure that not just LGBT people, but people who they consider to be unacceptable are not going to be given equality. So 30 years from now, I'm hoping [00:15:30] I'm trying to imagine it 30 years from now. You know that it would be like a non issue, you know, and I don't even know what that means. There will always be issues, but I wouldn't want it to be at the level of so basic level of do you or do you not accept, you know, homosexuality, Do you or don't you accept, You know, trans identities and, you know, queer expressions and, you know, all diverse expressions of gender. You know, I, I hope we're not at that basic level. Um, there will always [00:16:00] be divisions. There will always be 10 tensions. I think issues become more and more complex. Um, I hope we are not at the level of identity politics, which I think we still are, you know, to some level. So actually, I feel, uh it's a very risky question to answer because you know, even five years back, it wasn't possible to predict that we will be where we are today and to imagine what's going to happen 30 years from now. It's like [00:16:30] III. I wouldn't even want to go there. But I'm just hoping you know that it will surprise us like the last five years has surprised us. And, you know, it's like a time bomb which is just sticking under you, and you don't know it's going to go off and it will go off. But I would like to imagine that the world will be a completely different place from what it is right now. And, uh, I don't want to already start imagining what it is going to be like, but I'd like to be surprised.

IRN: 301
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_grace_poore_keynote.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004128
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089422
TITLE: Grace Poore - AsiaPacific Outgames
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Grace Poore
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Grace Poore; Wellington Town Hall; human rights; transcript online
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Grace Poore delivers a keynote presentation.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: It's my great pleasure now to introduce Grace poor from Malaysia. And I would like, uh, to acknowledge that, uh, Grace's presentation is made possible with funding from Rainbow Wellington. Thank you for that. Uh, and in fact, uh, Felicia acknowledged also, uh, the funding from the kingdom of the Netherlands that, uh, that contributed to her presentation. And these forms of sponsorship, um, must [00:00:30] be acknowledged appropriately. Thank you to Rainbow Wellington for Grace's presentation. Grace is a Malaysian activist. Uh, she is the regional programme coordinator for the Asia and the Pacific Islands at the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission, based in New York. She has been working to end domestic violence and child sexual abuse for over 20 years and has been recognised [00:01:00] for her anti violence work by the Sunshine Lady Peace Foundation. Grace has written, directed and produced documentaries that have been screened in 18 countries. And, uh, in 2000 won the Rosebud Award and in 2001, creating a voice award. Grace, it's a pleasure to have you here. Welcome. [00:01:30] Thank you. Um, I want to thank Joy who I think is not here. Um, for, uh, making it possible for me to be here. And also, uh, rainbow Wellington. Um, this opportunity, actually, uh, is not only about meeting new people, [00:02:00] um, connecting with people I've already met. But, uh, very particularly to see, uh, what kinds of relationships? Eagle, The International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission can form with, uh groups in the Pacific Islands. And we often talk about the capacity of local groups and we need to pay attention to whether international organisations have the capacity [00:02:30] to do certain kinds of work and that rather than tokens and doing work, Uh, because it belongs to a title to actually look at what that means. So although the title of you know, my title says that I'm the programme coordinator for Asia and the Pacific Islands, I had made a commitment, uh, in my second year to begin working and seriously doing work in the Pacific Islands, and that has not happened. And one of the reasons that I'm hoping [00:03:00] that I will be meeting with several people is to see what is it that we can do? Can we do it? Can we do it well and what shouldn't we be doing? So I am very grateful for this opportunity to be here to actually do that. Thank you. Um, I was invited to focus my presentation, um, on my experiences in movement building for social change in Asia and also at the international level, [00:03:30] and to share what this experience has taught me about what is required for successful movement, building and what some of the challenges are. I'm not really going to do that. I'm actually going to be sharing the insights of activists in Asia who have been working for many years to improve conditions for the lives of LGBT people and then to make some observations of my own about the trends that are emerging in the region. [00:04:00] Uh, yesterday, uh, Misra highlighted the successful movement building in India around section 3 77 and the development of lesbian organising in response to the Hindu right wing reaction to the movie fire. I would like to take this opportunity to highlight two different parts of Asia, North East Asia and Southeast Asia, paying attention to three [00:04:30] different approaches to advocating for LGBT human rights. One in Hong Kong, one in Vietnam and one in Cambodia where different political contexts have shaped and continued to shape how LGBT activists define the term movement and how they strategically navigate their activism. In 2005, a group of LGBT activists in Hong Kong who made up the Women's [00:05:00] Coalition of Hong Kong decided that they wanted to do something for International Day against homophobia. There were 10 of them. All they had was about US $100 and right away they knew that they could not afford to outreach through advertising and printing posters. The valuable resource they did have was an already established network of credible friendships and working relationships [00:05:30] with activists and other social movements such as feminists, women's groups, human rights groups, youth groups, economic rights groups and religious groups. Using Facebook email alerts and E groups, they reached out to these other movements. They also leaflet at gay and lesbian bars to introduce their group and publicise the call together for International Day Against homophobia, an unprecedented 300 people, which is [00:06:00] a big number for Hong Kong. 300 people showed up in one of the busiest intersections of the city, and since that year there have been Idaho and pride gatherings on the streets of Hong Kong every year. The same outreach and coalition strategy was used when the Women's Coalition of Hong Kong fought to get domestic violence protections for same sex couples. Now again, there was success. Despite strong [00:06:30] resistance from Christian church groups, many of them funded by groups in the UK and the United States, Hong Kong now covers same sex couples under its domestic violence law, which, however, was not called the domestic violence law to appease the church but instead was renamed and Connie I Hope I Get This Right. Domestic and cohabiting relationships. Violence ordinance, cool [00:07:00] building and investing in broad coalitions has worked for Hong Kong LGBTI activists, particularly because of the public visible and vocal support from non LGBT supporters. Sometimes coalition support is behind the scenes. It's private, it's quiet. The trouble with that is it actually, um, invisibles that support. And it is critical for LGBT movements [00:07:30] in Asia and the Pacific Islands to receive public support from allies, particularly in a context where there is so much public and private homophobia and transphobia. When I asked Connie, uh, who is the founder of the Women's Coalition of Hong Kong who's here at this conference. Is that Connie there? I think so. Um, So when I asked Connie what helped move that movable middle, you know, in those many, many movements, what helped [00:08:00] make that difference in getting the broad coalition support? He said that after over 10 years of organising for LGBT rights, Hong Kong society had changed. People are more accepting of LGBT rights. The LGBT movement has become bigger. Activists in the LGBT movement have alliances that they didn't have before, and they have gained a lot of experience on how to strategize effectively working together [00:08:30] on that domestic violence. Law reform was a catalyst, actually in reinforcing those alliances. Now the challenge now for the LGBT movement in Hong Kong is the Christian right movement, which, according to Connie, has grown stronger over the last few years. While only 10% of Hong Kong people are Christian, over 50% of schools in Hong Kong are funded by Christian groups. This gives them incredible access and [00:09:00] control over the kind of education and the social services that you receive. In addition, several highly placed officials in the Hong Kong government are Christian, which has added greater support for the family values policy that the Christian groups are pushing for in Hong Kong now. A quick glimpse at Vietnam When I asked activists there how they would describe the movement for LGBT [00:09:30] rights in Vietnam, the first response was What movement? We have no movement. The word movement in Vietnam is associated with confrontation. And as one of the directors of an organisation that is documenting, um, discrimination against lesbians and gay men explained, Our approach is not confrontation. We promote education. He said that by carrying out research and documenting the experiences [00:10:00] of gays and lesbians in Vietnam, they only focus on gays and lesbians. Um, that by documenting the experiences of gays and lesbians in Vietnam and presenting this information in a scientific way, he believed that Vietnamese society would be more open to challenging their ideas about gay people, even if their personal beliefs and customs are rooted in a tradition of non acceptance. As he explains, enlightenment through education is promoted by the government, [00:10:30] so this then becomes the entry point for LGBT advocacy without using the word movement without using the word activists. This strategy is premised on the expectation that when people have information that they never had before. They have an opportunity to challenge their flawed thinking, which is based on misinformation and all ideas. In other words, they believe that people are educable. [00:11:00] Now Cambodia is a third country that I want to focus on. Cambodia also uses the education approach, but their focus of their education strategy is the LGBT community and not so much the general public. In 2009, Rainbow Coalition Kua Rock organised a three day long weekend workshop during Pride. 300 to 400 women who love women came from the capital city of Phnom Penh. But more [00:11:30] significantly they came from distant cities and provinces, travelling sometimes for a night and a half on a bus. Now, according to rock, this was the first time that lesbians had been invited to do anything for pride, which has been celebrated in Cambodia since 2004. Now, when I say pride activities, I don't mean rallies and marches on the streets. These activities are low profile activities that take place [00:12:00] indoors because when we think pride, you know, people usually assume outdoors. So, for instance, a Pride Party, uh, would be held in a hotel and like 500 gay men would be at the party. This workshop series of workshops that took place all took place on the premises of HIV AIDS NGOs, where the gay gay directors very quietly allowed them to use the space. And I say quietly because they were really not supposed [00:12:30] to do that. Now what's interesting about Cambodia is that the people who mobilised the Cambodian lesbians were foreigners. They were from the UK. They were basically white people from the UK and Ireland who came under the VSO Voluntary Services Organisation. Now they saw that the lesbians were marginalised and invisible in Cambodia. They raised $6000 from supportive American, European and overseas Cambodians and organised the workshop. [00:13:00] As one of the VSO staff said, Um, it's hard for lesbians to come out in Cambodia because we are foreigners and white. We could risk being out and we had access to resources that the local lesbian community did not. Now, since 2009, that workshop that was held lesbians in Cambodia have met again to address the key issues in their lives, one of which is violence, and they [00:13:30] have formed a national email network through which they keep in touch regularly. Now this kind of arrangement where foreigners drive a local movement, can be a problem. And I think that sometimes under very careful circumstances, it may be necessary to have this kind of arrangements, particularly where it is not possible for local activists in a particular point of time [00:14:00] to initiate a movement. But again, I think that it has to be very carefully monitored. It has to be done in partnership. There have to be a lot of caveats. It has to be short term and priority has to be given to developing local capacity and developing local leadership as soon as possible. I think that three of the four VSO people have now left Cambodia because their terms are now over. But two or three of [00:14:30] the Cambodian lesbians that convened in 2009 have now emerged as leadership to continue the work. Also, the National Human Rights Commission of Cambodia has begun a documentation project on violence against women and when they heard that there's this lesbian network that is forming in Cambodia and that violence is one of the issues, they have now invited that lesbian network to be included in the documentation project, which would [00:15:00] not have happened if this hadn't come forward happened before. So from the three examples, I hope that it is clear that movement is not a monolithic concept. It depends on context and possibilities that that people have. In that context, there can be a movement with few people because only they can be visible and vocal. You can have a movement from outside a country because it's not possible with activists inside the country. A movement may start because local [00:15:30] people who have been educated abroad come back to connect, collaborate and inspire. But the integrity of movement building is linked to who suffers the consequences of being part of a movement and who bears the brunt of what that movement does. Sometimes people outside the country may drive a movement from outside, but they don't face any of the risks within the country that they're advocating. For similarly, people inside a country may [00:16:00] internationalise an issue without first consulting with other people in that country. So the question becomes who represents who. Now, since I have a few more minutes, Yes, um, I would like to talk about new media technology and how new media technology is actually changing landscape of movement building in some parts of Asia. When I say new media technology, I mean Facebook and Twitter and half of the stuff I don't even have, um, Internet. You know all of this stuff. [00:16:30] So but it's it's mass numbers of people can now join movements that spring into action thousands of miles away. Now, some of the complaints about the strategy is that you know, you can press a button. Uh, you can send a letter of protest. You can sign on to petition, um, and you may be thousands of miles away from a country that's initiating it. And then you feel satisfied [00:17:00] because you somehow are now part of this movement, and you feel great that you've done something. But you know nothing about that country. You know nothing about the issues and, you know, trying to fit a critical message into 100 and 60 characters. Uh, the tweet thing. Uh, it's, you know, it's it's a challenge to come up with it, but it's a challenge of how do you communicate and convey details to people about issues of that campaign. Having said that though there [00:17:30] are people in Asia who rely and find that this new media technology is very useful. In 2007, Singapore gay activist Johnson on put on he sent out an online petition. He collected 8000 signatures worldwide for the repeal of the Singapore Sodomy Law. Also in 2007, a South Korean LGBT coalition of activists, they initiated an international cyber demonstration against [00:18:00] Lee Myung bak, who is currently the president of South Korea. At the time, he was the presidential candidate and he made some public comments that LGBT people are abnormal. In 2009, the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission mobilised an online letter writing campaign to the pro to protest the Philippines Election Commission that their decision to deny A, which is an LGBTI party, the right to participate [00:18:30] in national elections and the Election Commission said that LGBT people offend religious beliefs and they are an immoral influence on the country's youth and therefore they should not be allowed to run for the national elections. Hundreds of letters were sent to the Philippines Commission from all over from Latin America, America, North America, Asia, Europe to the Philippines Commission and the feedback that [00:19:00] we got is the local activists felt really bolstered by getting these kinds of letters, um and that it it it made a difference. It did make a difference to them, and he sent also a message to the violators, meaning the Philippines Commission that the world is watching on the downside of new technology. Um, people who promote hate and violence against LGBT. People also use new technology. They monitor our websites, they [00:19:30] use the same things that we use and they can use it to distort. They can use it to mobilise uh, they can seriously endanger people's lives. One recent example is a virulent hate speech and death threats made by a blogger who saw a video post by a gay man in Malaysia who was making a positive statement about his identity. Now, while he received many, many supportive responses, the cyber attacks against him [00:20:00] were frightening, and these raise important questions for us. What is the role of law enforcement in these kinds of situations When these kinds of death threats are done? How do they protect vulnerable citizens from such terror? And I think that human rights commissions need to sort of get on the ball and also catch up with technology and see how, what kinds of things they can do. And how does this come under the work that they do? Um, I mean, I've talked [00:20:30] about some of the good things that have happened in the three countries and give a sense that things are moving. Sunil talked about looking forward and not holding on to the grievances of the past. But, uh, I do feel like I need to end on this note. 10 countries in Asia, nine countries in the Pacific islands criminalise consensual same sex relations. And [00:21:00] even in countries where there are no sodomy laws, there is little or no political will in many of the countries in Asia on the part of the government to remove a whole bunch of other laws that target LGBT people everything from public nuisance laws, pornography laws, adultery laws, morality laws, obscenity laws, respect of religion laws and this lack of political will is influenced by the presence of dominant religious ideology and cultural conservatives [00:21:30] and these religious leadership. They function as gatekeepers, and in many instances they encourage policy makers to reject efforts to decriminalise sexual orientation and gender identity and to shut down efforts to introduce non discrimination provisions in the con. This has happened in South Korea, which has a small population of Christians. This has happened in Singapore, which is a very small population, like two per cent of Christians. This is happening in Hong Kong. This is now starting to happen in China. [00:22:00] This is starting to happen in many other countries as well. The the rise of ultra conservative religious groups and their influence and policy makers is also evident in Indonesia, Malaysia, using homegrown expressions of imported religious homophobia, Christian groups and hardline Islamist groups are actually uh, a trend that I think that we need to pay attention [00:22:30] to. They don't only affect LGBT rights. They affect women's rights. There's a lot of overlap that takes place. They incite public vigilantism. They promote homophobic backlash in the media and they are often they are endorsed by silent collusion of the governments in the countries that they operate in. So I think that these are things that we should pay attention to.

IRN: 345
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_gertrude_glossip.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004152
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089446
TITLE: Gertrude Glossip
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Gertrude Glossip
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Australia; Gertrude Glossip; drag; human rights
DATE: 19 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Civic Square / Te Ngākau, Civic Square/Te Ngākau, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Gertrude Glossip from Australia talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, I've got a dual role this week, darling. As you see in this manifestation today, I'm Dr Gertrude Glosser PhD formal drapery Curtin University, and I've been doing wild sex at the zoo. So I've done two wild sex tours tours at the zoo, which is gorgeous. And then my other persona will did the, uh, triathlon the wee triathlon on Sunday. And he was the only sexo engineer in the event for gay the out games. So he won a gold medal, Darling, Congratulations. [00:00:30] Thank you. And then we also went to the at the conference Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. And also we've got some first cousins here in New Zealand. So we've been visiting them, too. So it's been a very full schedule. What was Wild six at the zoo? Well, it's looking at the wonderful social and sexual diversity in the animal world. You know, as I say, it's to explode the myth that all the animals went into the arc as two by two happy heterosexual monogamous couples. It's just not true. [00:01:00] You see, there's this diversity in the way animals do sex and family in nature. And so I like to say to my audience and the world at large. Well, look, Is this a model for Homo SAPIENs? You know, it's not this rigid binary of male female heteros monogamous marriage, you see. But it's an infotainment. It's fun as well as factual. What are some examples, then? Well, some very good examples. For example, male giraffes, [00:01:30] young giraffes from about. They're sexually mature at four, but from 4 to 8, almost all the sexual behaviours in male giraffes is male to male homosexual sex. Yes, and they do this wonderful courtship activity. They're built for it only called necking. They love to neck, and that leads to mounting with erections and orgasm. And that's male to mouth. We we don't usually hear about this, but on the David Attenborough shows, you see, and also for example, um um [00:02:00] the the female emu. I like to wear a coat of arms. She's she's polyandry, darling, you see, and she, um, just mates with the male. She lays the eggs and then she shoots through and takes up with another male, and she leaves the male to incubate and raise the cheeks. And sometimes two males get together. They form a super clutch and two males bring up the family together. So it's an example of same sex parenting in nature. So that's sort of the idea. So during the tour this week, did you see any of that action happening? No, look. Unfortunately, [00:02:30] animals won't always perform on cue. Although I would say the Hamara Baboons, the male gave us a very nice erection and very full frontal and right in our face, you might say. So that was That was very accommodating. And the chimpanzees were certainly lounging and and and displaying lovely genital displays and certain amount of genital fondling. Because that's the other thing I say about wild sex. I like [00:03:00] to point out that sex is not just for procreation. There's there's plenty of examples of the animal world where clearly the sexual activity is not leading appropriation, so therefore, one assumes it must be pleasurable. Had Wellington Zoo ever seen a sex tour before? I don't think they had, and they were. I must give Wellington Zoo an absolute, uh plus because they were really accommodating and very, um, encouraging and supportive. So who took the tour? Yes, well, we had two [00:03:30] groups of last year. We had about 24 and today, 27. So a whole range of people, I must say, I always have a big lesbian following because I'm an intelligent drag person. You see, you're not like some showgirls. You know, I just I don't mean to be rich showgirls very entertaining, but sometimes it's not very cerebral. Do you understand what I mean? And I find lesbians like something that's a bit cerebral, you know? So I've got a big lesbian. Follow me. But there are a lot of gay men, too, and and the whole age ranges young and all. We had a few gabs [00:04:00] today. We had two chaps who are bringing up, um, a babe together. Yes. So that was lovely. So they were like the male. And last week, we had a little gay, a couple, um, with their said to be a man and woman, but they said it was a gay, so I'm not quite sure how that works out. Um, yes. So a whole range of very a very broad section of people. And what kind of responses do you get from people when they come on the tour? Very enthusiastic. They feel they've come away having [00:04:30] been exposed to something that they hadn't been before. You know, the other thing we find the general public are often quite fascinated. As I say. Little boys seem to be very drawn to me, darling, you know, their mothers sometimes have to pull them away. They say, Who's this exotic creature at the zoo? Well, they go to see exotic creatures. And I'm just another example. Only I'm a homo SAPIENs. Yes. So you've been doing a lot this week. Have you been able to get out to other events like other cultural events? Theatre events? Yes. I had a few things that I've had the cousins [00:05:00] to deal with. You know, um and and, of course, the, um, the conference. But I did go to that wonderful film on the Thursday night. The, um, about body image. I can't think of the name that was. Assume nothing. They assume nothing. Thank you. Marvellous. Marvellous. I also went to, uh, mates and lovers and I did get the New Zealand joke. Darling, you know the new 21 minutes to your day. Oh, dear. He's so charming. This young man [00:05:30] the other day go to this one you know, like them young, dumb and full of There's a naughty ad lady. Just one final question. Then if if somebody is hearing this in 30 years time, what would you like to say to them? Well, I would like to think that the the unfolding since the beginning of the gay rights movement, even in 1969 has continued so that that idea of, of, of, of celebrating diversity and and [00:06:00] celebrating a whole range of, of ways of living and loving has become much more pervasive and continues to grow. That's what I'd like to think, and and I think the art games is a manifestation of that.

IRN: 344
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_gemma_demarco.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004156
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089450
TITLE: Gemma Demarco
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Gemma Demarco
INTERVIEWER: Jim Whitman
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Australia; Gemma Demarco; human rights
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Gemma Demarco from Australia talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Human rights conferences are not the nor normally on people's agendas, are you? How How did you get to know about this and what made you come here? Well, actually, back in 2008, I'm from Melbourne, Australia. I was involved in the first Asia Pacific Out games. My organisation, the foundation, was one of the partners and I hosted a youth event specifically for young people across the Asia Pacific region. And then after that, I got the bug [00:00:30] and I was thankful to go over to Copenhagen in 2009 to attend the world out games there. And so I thought I'd follow and come to New Zealand. You're quite a person to find. What are the what are the similarities and the differences? I think well, between between the two Asia Pacific, the lot of similarities since a lot of discussions come up about the Asia Pacific, how do we work together as a region [00:01:00] when we are so diverse in culture, in our histories, in our languages and also in our in our hopes for activism and human rights on the world stage? When I went to Copenhagen I I guess I I was a bit more aware that, um there are far more countries in the world who are struggling just for basic human rights just to stay alive. Whereas, for instance, in Australia, one of our, um, [00:01:30] activities is to fight for same sex marriage, which is, I think, was very small, um, compared to just wanting to stay alive and keeping people alive and not being killed for being GL BT I Did you go to this morning's session about, um and there was a very strong Pacific Speaker talking about Look, if you want our country to sign [00:02:00] up for the thing in Geneva, then you should really include diverse name. I agree. And thankfully, a lot of the Pacific Islanders were able to come to this conference due to grants and funding, sometimes from their own countries from independent funders, and also the out games help them get along. But if we're going to say we're Asia Pacific, we need a representation [00:02:30] because I don't think Australia or New Zealand or Asia can talk for the whole of the Pacific. That will be difficult. We're still we're still learning so long as we're learning and we're taking on people's suggestions and we're moving forward. So we need other conferences. Um, other meetings, perhaps, I think, from from the whole conference and what I I guess I learn every time is that we have to work within [00:03:00] our first region. First, we have to start with our region. I have to make the connections in Australia before trying to build networks across the whole of the Asia Pacific. If we're not working with our neighbours, our close neighbours, then we can't start working on a national level. International level. Are aboriginal people part of the missing picture in Australia? I believe so. Um, I'm not born in Australia. I live there [00:03:30] now. But for instance, at this conference, I've only seen or heard from one visible Australian indigenous individual. They're clearly missing from this conference, and there weren't many numbers. There were few numbers at the first Asia Pacific, but they were represented in a small group as that got worse then, in the sense that even fewer I think it's purely location [00:04:00] and distance and money again trying to get people over to New Zealand. I know it's not very far from Australia, but a lot of the indigenous, uh, communities are still struggling. As we heard yesterday, they're still struggling to keep a work to retain their culture and to be taken seriously. So we must take that on board. If we want indigenous people from Australia and learn their names. [00:04:30] Yes, from everywhere indigenous from all over, from New Zealand, from the Pacific, from Asia which have been both represented and then Australia as well. And then you would start with the world you've got, you know, America and South America. It's a lot to consider. You've already said I think what you're taking away with you. Yes, anything else for myself. I work with young people in the trans community [00:05:00] and certainly on Tuesday I was very thankful to attend a regional transgender and intersex queue which was organised by Jack Burn. And from that I've built incredible networks and made great connections with individuals that I believe we can start working together between Australia and New Zealand.

IRN: 300
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_geetanjali_misra_keynote.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004126
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089420
TITLE: Geetanjali Misra - AsiaPacific Outgames
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: David Huebner; Geetanjali Misra
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); David Huebner; Geetanjali Misra; Ilott Theatre; India; activism; human rights; transcript online
DATE: 17 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Geetanjali Misra delivers a keynote presentation. Geetanjali is introduced by David Huebner, the United States Ambassador to New Zealand. The presentation happened during the second plenary session: Our rights across the Asia Pacific region - a snapshot.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Our third speaker who is with us today is Gitanjali Misra from India, is a co founder and executive director of CRE A, an international feminist human rights organisation based in the Global South. She has worked as an activist, a grant maker and a policy maker on issues of sexuality, reproductive health, gender, human rights and violence against [00:00:30] women. She co founded Saki, which means woman friend for South Asian women. It's an NGO based in New York, committed to ending violence against women of South Asian origin. Gitanjali sits on a number of boards, including the International Advisory Board for the Global Fund for Women and Women's Initiatives for Gender Justice, based in the Netherlands. She writes extensively on issues of sexuality, gender [00:01:00] and rights and co edited sexuality, gender and rights, exploring theory and practise in South and Southeast Asia. Ladies and gentlemen, please give a warm welcome to our third presenter. Good morning, everybody, and thank you to Barry and the organisers for inviting me to be here. It's a privilege and an honour. [00:01:30] So now I have a stop watch because I've gone from 25 to 20 minutes and I have some clips so I'm going to be looking for some technical support to get this going. So I'm going to present a snapshot of the LGBT movement in India and I'm going to focus my talk a lot more on the lesbian movement because I can only give a snapshot. It is India. It's diverse. It's 1 billion people, OK, just [00:02:00] as the previous speaker said, They say it like it is we in India never say it like it is. We have 1 billion people and we never talk about sex leave alone heterosexual sex. Uh so therefore, the LGBTI movement has come out of a very complicated context, and I don't want to be labelled the context. But the Indian society is very traditional and LGBT. Individuals have often been stereotyped as coming only from educated [00:02:30] westernised elites. With those from poorer and more marginalised groups usually seen as victims of the sex work industry rather than people exercising choices. The rise of Hindu fundamentalism in the past two decades has made the environment more challenging. Still, the BJP party that's a sign and its followers, including women, have promoted the idea of the chased married heterosexual [00:03:00] woman as a symbol of pure India, with anyone contravening these ideals as beyond the pale and persecuted. On the other hand, there have been some advantages, and that facilitated the rise of a new social movement. Firstly, civil society in India is traditionally very strong, and the women's movement, which would eventually produce a number of lesbian activists, was very prominent and well organised. Secondly, from [00:03:30] the late 19 eighties, India received significant funding for HIV AIDS prevention efforts, which helped bring LGBT issues into the fore. And it persuaded some policymakers that ostracising these groups would be counterproductive and more likely to spread HIV than curtail it. But even these advantages were mixed blessings. The women's movement was very reluctant to engage with lesbian issues in the early days, and the relationship [00:04:00] between the two movements was often hostile. Feminists felt that women had much bigger problems than those faced by a small number of lesbians and bisexual women, and that associating themselves with lesbians might allow the Hindu right to tarnish feminism and reverse the wider gains they had made. So LGBT activists were not allowed to talk at national conferences of women's movements, for example, when feminists did [00:04:30] strain to same sex sexuality. They mainly talked about the lesbian sphere as a site of violence rather than about the positive and pleasurable aspects of same sex. Love and desire and the right to such relationships. And the HIV AIDS movement was also a mixed blessing as it had a tendency to medicalize same sex sexuality rather than looking at the social context or the positive side of relationships. This tended to enhance the image of [00:05:00] lesbians and other minority groups as victims in need of treatment rather than agents with control over their lives who sought acceptance by society as the best medicine. These constraints and the pressure of tradition meant that the lesbian movement in India was later in getting off the ground than it had been in some Western countries. And although there had been some signs of life during the 19 eighties, it was really a [00:05:30] series of events that provided the spark for more concerted action. The first of these events was a same sex marriage between two policewomen in a small town in central India. This was widely reported in the newspapers and resulted in the two women being losing their jobs, but their family and friends supported them. And the widespread reporting of the story made other lesbian women across the country come out and [00:06:00] realised that they were not alone, that abuse and prejudice were not inevitable if they came out. And that same sex relationships were not the exclusive preserve of wealthy women from the big westernised cities. After the story broke, several other reports of women marrying began began to emerge, along with a number of tragic stories about same sex couples committing suicide of women and girls whose social stigma [00:06:30] were preventing them from being together. Although none of these women were part of a movement, their stories began to raise awareness and encourage would be activists. That mobilisation might be possible. Then came the famous film Fire, which, really and if you'll excuse the pun, set the movement a light. The film is about a relationship between two women who escape their oppressive marriages by falling in love with each [00:07:00] other and beginning a serious sexual relationship. The women were named Radha and Sika, who are popular figures in Hindu mythology. The film directly challenged the particular the patriarchal Hindu construction of the pure chased heterosexual woman. It was released overseas in 1996 and in India in 1998. Many people were surprised it passed the censor board because although there had [00:07:30] been some queer films before, they had never attempted to reach a mainstream audience. When it was released, fire attracted huge audiences and sparked an enormous amount of discussion. I'm going to show you a one minute clip of fire, so the woman in the red is also a member of Parliament. But she doesn't really talk about lesbian issues. Um, [00:08:00] she talks about slum people in poverty and many other social issues, but not so. But she did do that film, Uh, and it did make her famous. So the film Fire also sparked a serious backlash. The women's wing of the Hindu fundamentalist party, the Shiv Sena, disrupted screening of the film in Bombay and Delhi by vandalising movie theatres and tearing down advertising posters, and [00:08:30] they threatened to stop the film from being screened across the country. The protesters argued that the film was perverted and that lesbianism was not part of Indian and especially Hindu culture. At first, the film's supporters were taken aback by all this, but they soon regrouped and fought back, and for the first time, LGBTI individuals came out onto the streets of Delhi and Bombay in organised groups to protest. So we do have [00:09:00] to thank the for forcing us to come together. These counter Attackers argued that homosexuality was part of Hindu culture and that the Sh Sena's image of India did not match reality. Lesbian groups in India held candle light protests and meetings and marches, and in Bombay there were sit ins in front of movie theatres that had stopped showing the film. Posters were put up around the city and there was a 300 women march which received [00:09:30] widespread media coverage. Gay men had begun to agitate publicly for change six years earlier when an organisation working on HIV AIDS organised a rally in Delhi against police harassment of gay men. But this was the first time lesbians had a visible public presence in India in the wake of fire groups like the Campaign for Lesbian Rights in India and prison emerged to make the demands for improved rights [00:10:00] more concrete and formal. Kari's aim was to raise awareness of lesbianism and dispel the myths surrounding it, as well as advocating for lesbian rights and among Prism's major achievements had been to persuade feminists that sexuality is an issue that should concern them, and that because sexuality is used by patriarchal societies as a tool to control women, feminists should work on these issues even if they themselves are heterosexual. [00:10:30] Much of this early work was about reacting to harms and injustice, such as lesbian suicides or of attempted repression of lesbians by the But as the lesbian movement grew, it forged links with organisations representing gay and bisexual men, and as LGBT activism became more organised, the objectives became bigger and the movement soon turned its focus to section 377 of the [00:11:00] Indian Penal code. There is a whole workshop this afternoon on 377 that Sumi is leading tomorrow, so hopefully some of the details of it will be covered there. But Section 377 was authored by Lord McCauley, the president of the Indian Law Commission, In 18 60 it was part of Britain's attempt to impose Victorian values on the biggest colony on its biggest colony. The law was still in place at the turn [00:11:30] of the millennium. And there are numerous documented cases of the law being used as a weapon to harass, threaten and blackmail LGBT individuals and groups. While the law wasn't used that often to bring successful prosecutions as it was difficult to prove that carnal Interros against the order of nature had taken place in private, it created a climate of criminality around sexual minority groups. [00:12:00] Just the threat of arrest could be used by the authorities to discriminate against LGBT people. For example, in the state of Gujarat, a woman underwent a sex change and married a woman and was subject of a high court petition calling for criminal action under Section 3 77 on the grounds that she was still a woman and therefore engaging in a lesbian relationship. 377 also [00:12:30] made life difficult for groups working on HIV AIDS to reach people who might be at risk. In 2001, 4 activists working on HIV aids in in a small town called Luck now had been distributing pamphlets and condoms to gay men and whose work was recognised by the state AIDS control agency were accused of running a gay sex club, and they were charged under section 377. There was a case where a group of physicians recommended that condoms [00:13:00] be distributed in a Delhi prison where there were high reported rates of homosexual sex. The prison authorities refused because homosexual sex is a crime under section 377 and distributing condoms would mean condoning a criminal act. So the LGBTI movement mobilised to have this part of the law read down. This had been first attempted before fire by a group representing gay men, but the petition they made to the Delhi High Court [00:13:30] withered and was forgotten about. Then, in 2001, the Nars Foundation India Trust, another Delhi NGO whose workers had suffered police harassment during HIV education campaigns among marginalised communities, joined with the lawyers collective, a legal organisation working for the rights of people affected by HIV AIDS. They petitioned the Delhi High Court to read down section 377 to exclude private consensual [00:14:00] sex between adults. Child rights groups were opposed to the entire law being repealed. As it is, only it is the only law under which some types of sexual abuse of minors can be prosecuted after some legal wrangling. A coalition of NGOs working on human rights issues called Voices Against 377 joined the petition. This was an important alliance because 377 the voices against 377 brought together a large [00:14:30] number of NGOs working to strengthen gay, lesbian and transgender rights, along with child rights activists, feminist groups and other human rights groups. As the momentum grew, new groups which had been isolated and reticent to make themselves known, came forward to join up and add their voices. So the coalition was able to provide stories from people whose lives had been torn apart by fear of prosecution and blackmail from police and others who [00:15:00] took advantage of the law. These testimonials showed how damaging the law was, and they made such an impression on the judges that they were quoted in the final judgement. So this 377 campaign, like the film fire before it was a rallying point which strengthened the LGBT movement and gave it a greater profile and a stronger organisation. This was helped by voices against 370 seven's decision to shift the focus [00:15:30] of the petition from a health based case to a human rights case. It no longer focused the case on issues of morality or what constitutes natural sex. But it brought consent to the fore and highlighted the discrepancies between 377 and the guarantees of the Indian Constitution to respect privacy, liberty and non discrimination. By doing this, they were able to include other movements not strictly related to [00:16:00] LGBT rights in their cause. The campaign's advocacy strategy was based on large scale demonstrations press conferences. There was a Million Voices Campaign which gathered issues of thousands of signatures opposed to section 377 including the signatures of many who were directly affected by the law. The lawyers collective organised a lot of meetings with uh with legal advocacy groups and local groups in major cities, [00:16:30] So the judgement came on July 2nd 2009 after an eight year campaign. The Delhi High Court ruled that the provision of seat three, Section 377 in India's penal code that criminalises private consensual sex between same sex adults violates the country's constitution. and international human rights conventions. The two judges ruled that consensual sex amongst its amongst adults is legal, which includes even gay sex. [00:17:00] That's part of the judgement. I'm not going to read that. But the judges also said that where society can display inclusiveness and understanding, such persons can be assured of life of dignity and non discrimination. They said, In our view, the Indian constitutional law does not permit the statutory criminal law to be held captive by the popular misconceptions of who the LGBT people are. It cannot be forgotten that discrimination [00:17:30] is antithesis of equality and that it is the recognition of equality which will foster the dignity of every individual. So what next? Even though the ruling has sparked massive celebrations across the country by LGBT groups who saw DECRIMINALISATION as a major step towards acceptance by society, there's still a lot of work to be done. Angeli Gopalan, the executive director of the Nars Foundation, [00:18:00] said. We have finally entered the 21st century the judgement that decriminalises adult consensual same sex sexual activity is one of the positive steps that have been taken towards affirming the rights of LGBT persons in India, but we have a long way to go legally. For example, family and employment law may continue to discriminate against people based on their sexual preference. We don't know if same sex Indian couples will be able to marry or adopt [00:18:30] Children, or how inheritance and tax laws will apply for same sex couples or whether workplace discrimination will be outlawed. And we don't know if such laws will be strictly enforced. Social change is needed, and we need to basically take the the content of the judgement and publicise it much more. We need to disseminate the message of 377 and embed its vision of greater tolerance into society. And there is a lot of work going on [00:19:00] to achieve this. This is now. Currently there are lots of marches in every cities. There are support groups for LGBT people. Lots of books have been written about sexuality. There are books that exist in regional languages that have come out. A lot of Bollywood movies have now queer themes, and these are all parts of this thriving movement. The LGBT community is becoming more visible, but there is still a long way to go [00:19:30] and of course, as the religious rights outrage responses to the 377 judgement shows, The LGBTI in movement in India has advanced some distance down the road once mapped out by Gandhi, who, although far from being a sexual radical, knew a few things about activism. First, they ignore you, he said, And then they laugh at you and then they fight you. Then you win. I like to think we've reached the third stage, [00:20:00] at least, thank you very much, no.

IRN: 343
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_gabi_rosenstreich.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004155
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089449
TITLE: Gabi Rosenstreich
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Gabi Rosenstreich
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Australia; Gabi Rosenstreich; human rights
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Gabi Rosenstreich from Australia talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My current role is I'm, executive director of the National LGBT Health Alliance. That's a fairly new peak body in Australia that is basically an umbrella organisation for individuals and organisations who work in a whole lot of different ways to improve, promote the health and well-being of lesbian, gay bisexual trends into sex and a whole lot of other sexuality, sex and gender diverse people. Um, so in that role, it's about working [00:00:30] with a very diverse individuals, diverse organisations in a very complex environment. And part of the challenge of that is, of course, that the interests needs experiences of different parts of our multifaceted communities. Um are often not acknowledged in the certainly in the organised work that happens around LGBTI rights, even if in Australia at the moment we're using the acronym LGBTI. [00:01:00] But a lot of the work the advocacy that is done in that area is has tended to come from the context of people best resourced so often issues of of difference and of the different needs and of the different resources available to people to both advocate for their needs but also to, um, claim them and are, um, [00:01:30] vary a lot and I guess what I was talking about in my presentation was I was starting off with the word intersectionality because it's become very fashionable. Um, and I think it's starting to be used a lot as a term to address the interrelations between different forms of difference. I think we've become relatively familiar with this idea that people have multiple identities. Um, but we often don't think [00:02:00] very much further than that about or what does that mean? And there's often still this additive, um, approach of Well, you're you're either gay or you're a migrant or whatever. And if you're thinking in multiple terms, then maybe you can be a couple of things at once. Maybe you can be a gay migrant or a lesbian indigenous person or something like that, but it's still hard for us to conceptualise. Well, what does that mean? And to think [00:02:30] beyond it, being like an addition of Oh, you've got one strand of identity and then you've got another and you add that and hey, if you've got a couple of strands that are marginalised identities, hey, you must be extra unhappy because you've got added layers of potential. At least discrimination and that it's actually a lot more complex than that. And the term Intersectionality is is a trying, I guess, to understand what those connections mean [00:03:00] and how that plays out. The point I was trying to get across was that particularly because it's become a bit fashionable. It's often being used in a quite unreflective way. So what's often being left out of the equation is the power and balances between different social groups and the different. Yeah, I have a sociologist background. So the social capital associated with different identities and that's quite concrete, You know what sort [00:03:30] of resources? If I'm middle class, I have access to education that has a lot of implications of what other types of things I can access. I have, um, access to dominant social norms of walk out. You know, simple stuff like etiquette. You know what, what responses do people have to me on the basis of etiquette? Um, so it's a whole range of things, from access to money through to more diffuse resources or power access, and that each individual [00:04:00] is positioned somewhere in the intersection between an interplay of a whole lot of different social categories. and each of those categories is not a sort of an either or and it's not associated with, Oh, you have power or you don't. It's actually far more complex than that, and they're all continuum, and they're all axes of power. So what I think is useful in talking about Intersectionality is to think of it as [00:04:30] a matrix or a whole lot of overlapping groups with associated sort of resources attached to them. Power attached to them and the individual is positioned at where they interplay. So it's not as simple as adding things up, you know? Hey, as a lesbian, I've got less power here, but more power because I'm white and and that it's actually about Well, how does my skin colour mediate my experience of being a lesbian? Um, a lot of people are talking [00:05:00] at this conference around identity and being very clear that that's not as simple as, oh, here's the Maori part of me. And here's the gay, lesbian or trans part of me. It's actually a very specific interplay that has a really specific um, implications for how I understand myself what my identity means to me. The resources available to me and how I live my life. So it's intersectionality is about trying to conceptualise [00:05:30] that and think through the implications. And ultimately, for me, it comes down to people are complicated. People have access to power in relation to various parts of their experiences in society, and there are parts of their identity where they're more likely to have less resources. But it's actually more an interplay of how those different axis, um, work together [00:06:00] that gives you access to certain types of resources and certain needs and gaps in others. So to advocate for equity on a sort of societal level or on an individual level in terms of social service provision or whatever or even our own individual rights, we actually need to be taking that complexity into account, because otherwise we're kind of missing the point. We're certainly not gonna create sustained social change and often what we're doing. A lot of LGBTI advocacy is often come [00:06:30] from a position of Oh, we are disempowered due to being gay or being lesbian or being Trans, and I note that you can be both trans and gay or lesbian. They are lumped together often as though they're sort of separate, but they interconnect, too. Um, and by doing so, ignore all those other threads, all those other where within that pool [00:07:00] of LGBTI people, some of us have more power than others. There's a whole complexity of experiences, resources, et cetera, And if we want to move forward around sexual orientation issues or gender identity or sex identity issues in an authentic way that benefits everybody, we actually need to take that complexity into account, because otherwise we're reproducing some of the norms of dominance and the assumptions. And generally [00:07:30] I mean very simplistically. What that means is, you know, white middle class urban perspectives are being reproduced and intentionally or not, excluding a vast number of other people who really, theoretically at least fit under that umbrella. So to move forward as a movement, we need to take that complexity into account. To be able to provide good services, we need to take those into account to be able to advocate for change, to empower ourselves. [00:08:00] And that means both working on an empowerment framework but also on a power sharing framework, acknowledging where we do have power and using it very constructively for social change, I think it was a very good point. You made, uh, in another session where you were talking about. It's very easy to say LGBTI in a title, but to actually have that consultation and collaboration is very hard. Oh, absolutely. And I think it's hard both conceptually, because we're used to sort of this binary [00:08:30] model of Oh, you're this or you're that and life is simple and all black and white, and that's part of Western ways of thinking. But it's also hard because, hey, we've all got experiences with each other and the experiences of those population groups that have tended to be more marginalised, um, in particular trends and intersex people. But I'd also say by people, because I haven't heard anyone talking at this conference so far about buy issues, um, tend to be marginalised. So where there's been experiences, it's often meant [00:09:00] that it's been a token sort of an acronym of inclusion. But, um, people have not had their issues being addressed. They've often come on board in solidarity for issues. They're not primarily theirs. Um, you know, HIV is a great example. But when it's about issues that are primarily around gender identity, for example, like identity documentation. Then it's sort of a oh, but that's not really an issue for us. And it's [00:09:30] sort of Oh, well, maybe one day when we have time. Well, that's your issue. So I guess you know, the point I was trying to make is, if we are going to use those types of collective acronyms or work collectively, then it is about taking very seriously issues of collaboration and consultation and not just pretending. We're this nice, harmonious, whole. And we're all equal. And we all love each other because actually, we oppress each other too, because we have a whole, very complex of identities and belongings. [00:10:00] That was a very, um, interesting slide you put up, which was just simply a very large M. Well, what looked like an M. Can you can you just describe that? It's hard to describe because it's such a visual thing. Um, what I did was I put up an M what looked initially at least like an M on the screen and asked people what they see and people see an M. Um, and then I showed with an arrow what perspective that was being seen from. And then I used other arrows to look at that same figure [00:10:30] from other perspectives, and this is two dimensional, so it's a bit simplistic. It would be more fun to do it 3D, um, and ask people what they see. And it actually takes quite a shift of, uh, trying to work out. What would you see if you sort of moved around there? And, of course, what people were seeing was something quite different. If you look from the top, so to say, you'd be seeing a W and the key message is that where people are positioned determines what their experience of reality is, what they're seeing, [00:11:00] what they're perceiving, what their experiences are, what resources are available to them. And we're also used to seeing the world from our position that it's often quite hard to grasp. But there are. Most people, in fact, are standing in a different place to us because the threads that make up their identities, their lives and their experiences position them differently to me, and thus their perception of the world will be different. And I need to [00:11:30] grasp that basic fact if I'm actually going to engage with them effectively, and that applies to everybody. And I very much like that point that you said where, um yes to acknowledge that there are other points of view, but you don't necessarily need to understand those points of view or even to agree with them. You know, part of that complexity is that people have very different interests, needs and, um, positions. And I don't have to agree with somebody on every point in [00:12:00] order to be able to work with them in coalition around our common interests or out of solidarity around issues that are not primarily mine. Um, but yeah, no, I think often in some of the sort of training or learning and development approaches, working around to combat homophobia and transphobia, I think we often don't move past the empathy phase, and empathy is well and good, and it's a real skill. But we can't always feel empathy, and we [00:12:30] certainly can't understand the reality of people necessarily, and that shouldn't be the pre requisite to working effectively with them. So what I do need to understand is that there are limits of what I can understand is is really the the key skill I guess so. This conference What? What is the biggest thing that that you hope to take away from this conference? Um, I guess a mix of three things, Um, affirmation [00:13:00] in what I'm doing, Um, and sort of building on that growing from that through constructive good conversations, um, being challenged, being learning new ideas, thoughts and having my own thinking questioned. And that and thirdly, networking. I mean, it's just this conference can't help but be wonderful because there's hundreds of people doing really exciting things that are all in one space. And even if I only get to talk to half a dozen of them, I will have benefited from that. [00:13:30] So flashing forward to like 30 years time when somebody is listening back to this. Is there something that you would say to them? That's a really mean question. Um, first of all, nobody will be interested enough probably to listen back to this, but hopefully there will be someone looking back on us and thinking, Oh, the poor things. Life was so much more difficult then, and we've moved so much further. And now it's not a new or exciting [00:14:00] thought to be challenging, sort of binary, simplistic conceptions of identity. Of course, we see that complexity and of course, we're addressing power imbalances. But really, nowadays it's all far more constructive. And you're stating the obvious. I'd like it if they think I'm stating the obvious. Do you ever think that we could actually go backwards rather than kind of, you know, being a lot more open far too often? Um, I used to work in [00:14:30] a Roland. I guess this can go on record. I used to work for the New Zealand government in a role called GL BT I policy. And that was something that was introduced by the Labour Party as their platform. And I don't even remember when. So I wasn't the first person in that role. And so there was actually a government position that had the aim of people working across government with expertise in these areas to assist other officials to work inclusively and take this population group into account [00:15:00] and what they were doing because there was an acknowledgement that that wasn't happening satisfactorily. Um, we were really confident that that was a secure, stable role, and I left that role at the very start of 2009 and soon after that was just after a change of government. There was a national government came into power, and, um, soon after that role was basically disbanded with no or anything, it just ceased to actually [00:15:30] work. So that's in a way, just a really small thing. But it was one that shocked me because it wasn't part of a huge massive backswing. But it was a real indication that this is still seen as very marginal and very, um, dispensable. So I think in many, many small ways like that we're a lot more vulnerable than we think we are and that what's seen as positive social change can very [00:16:00] easily slip backwards. So I hope not too far, and that generally we're making three steps forward and only one backwards. But I think we are making lots of backward steps and, of course, people's vision of where forwards and backwards this varies. But in terms of sort of real basics, like more equity, more potential for participation, more acknowledgement of of diversity and challenging some of the power and balances and then inequities. I [00:16:30] think that that's much more vulnerable than here in Aotearoa, New Zealand. We often like to think.

IRN: 342
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_naeaulumanua_le_atioo.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004154
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089448
TITLE: Naeaulumanua Le Atioo and Fuimaono Karl Pulotu-Endemann
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Fuimaono Karl Pulotu-Endemann; Naeaulumanua Le Atio'o
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Fuimaono Karl Pulotu-Endemann; Naeaulumanua Le Atio'o; Wellington Town Hall; fa'afafine; human rights
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Naeaulumanua Le Atio'o and Fuimaono Karl Pulotu-Endemann talk about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm really interested in the idea of Pacific representation here, and there's been some discussion about that. Could could you talk for a minute about about what's being said in the plenaries? I have a very, very strong view about this, particularly the the acronym LBGGT. Because to me that is a very European, uh, version. It's very hero. That's OK if you have European stock. But for us, uh, particularly for from Samoa is that we have existed well before the [00:00:30] LP GT came, or even Europeans came to this part of the Pacific. So we for the Christians and, uh and I think it's a reclaiming of that name because one of the key issue for me is if human rights and things is about identity, are quite clearly for us as specific people. And Simon is that our culture identity is first and then our sexuality, which is around the other way for a European, yours is a sexuality. And then you may [00:01:00] acknowledge your culture. I'm, uh uh I think, uh, uh, Chief has already, uh, has summed up, uh, all what we are, uh, in the culture. Uh, we do have a a, uh, like positional in our culture and that, uh, what we are in our culture. Everyone knows when the term is is spoken, [00:01:30] They they know what we are. And that's us, OK? And yeah, that and I, I I'm very, um uh, glad to be here, given the opportunity to participate in this conference, uh, and to learn, uh, about the, uh, LGTPT, which is, uh, a a new concept to us, uh, like, said, has been with us from the beginning, way, way, [00:02:00] way back before Christianity. Um, and it's we deserve to be with everyone else now and forever. Um, actually, I'm an official member of the Socia, which stands for society of In American Samoa. Um, our Vice President Sasha already elaborated more on the on the intentions. Why we are here just to clarify the what the is all about. [00:02:30] So, um, but I'm very fortunate to be here because I have learned so many new things about, uh, human rights and also about these organisations of LGBT because we were here, uh, presenting, um, about and how lives are affiliated with our own culture. Ok, thank you. What? What is the most challenging things been about this conference for you. [00:03:00] I think it's really getting people together, and particularly with the Asia, Asia and Pacific. Hence for me is that you know, I'm fascinated by the the Asian, uh, members because they have not participated in Rio. But you know, one of the connections I have with the Asians, of course, because if you look historically, our Samons, we they say that we originated from Southeast Asia. But of course, the other connections we have is the colonialism. And I think what we had to look at is where the terminologies [00:03:30] came after the Christians after the Colonial. But I believe it's looking your own culture is the solutions. I am very propelled by solutions rather than problems. And to me, that's where this conference brings us the voices. And I'm excited as somebody who this is the first time I from American Samoa or to here because for the most people here and not Tasha, but the others is that this is the first time ever in New Zealand, and that's [00:04:00] really exciting for me, the the most. The most exciting thing about this conference is the presence of, uh of a IA. I think It is a society of in American Samoa and challenges for you at the conference. Yeah, there there are challenges. Um, I I've now learned because still, uh, gay is is very much different with back home, uh, for one aspect, because [00:04:30] we we are sexually attracted to straight men. Not with, like, you know, gay, sexually attracted to to other gas. So that's a challenge, Uh, that I'm trying to, um you know, uh, learn more about It's our distinction from from the, uh, from the gay concept. The gay. Yeah, but I'm I'm learning a lot as we as the conference progresses, so [00:05:00] does the gay concept and lesbian concept exist in American? So, uh, but yeah, now, but but I'm I'm I'm speaking culturally, um, as we were brought up. Like, for instance, uh, we we we're attracted to the straight man in our own culture. You know, we we're not sexually attracted to other, and that's Yeah, but, uh, yeah, that's the, uh we [00:05:30] can we differentiate the from from gays and Chinese? Is is the, um, you know, other, um, content of of of the conference here? Yeah, I think. Yeah, mostly. Tasha touch most of those spaces. But one of the challenge, um, experience that I've seen here on the lesbians. There's the populations of lesbians here and those [00:06:00] from he to she. Yeah, we don't have the We don't have that in Samoa. It's my first time seeing this. And it was amazing because it was my first time and don't you? And also, by ages, so many old. You mean like older than six years old? You know, when I look at them, my gosh, because we're so close to our mom, they look, I look at them like they're my grandmas grannies. So it's all it's new to me. But in [00:06:30] terms of kay there yeah, like, yeah, but there is. But if we consider the gays, there's so many of them in the closet hiding in the closet. But games they're but they're hidden all over the places. Like self. I classify myself as a but I dress half half. I'm wearing a lava lava with a purse, but I [00:07:00] I I think one of the things that you really have to appreciate is the the paradigms. You know, it's the world view that people have. It's not the same you know, like, if I ask you what is the gay? I mean, you've been around for this, uh, world a lot longer. I know. Where the root of the word gay faggot. The the English terms for me, it tells me the context of where that came from and what society at that time they saw you very [00:07:30] negatively. Faggot. You know something you burn whereas someone like a or invert prior to that, that was the term that you use. But whereas it means like a male to me, the definition is first of all, it's and it's, uh, uh, physically male as said, but also as a spirit of the woman who is entrenched in the the with the family. And the spirituality is entrenched in that particular area. But to try and impose. [00:08:00] And we know we talk about lesbian, we know there's a Greek mythology that comes from lesbian, and so it's really about when you have that picture in your head. Now, the picture in my head having lived in New Zealand for some time, is when you look at gay, the concept of gay men is very American. In that you know, your abs, and it's a whole conversation, you know, the abs and how. But you're looking straight acting. And by definition, can I just say straight Acting to me is just a total anathema of, [00:08:30] you know, of a gay person. Straight acting. What does that tell you and and just go back to this history is the fact that and you know, this is what you see. We don't put on anything. This is how we live in our families. This is how we live in our society. These are very highly qualified people from American Samoa. They're teachers, they got degrees and things. But this is the way we are. You know this So people will say, Well, this is the norm for us, whereas you know the other. And I'm not trying to [00:09:00] integrate the because it's used to that paranoia. I'm just saying this is my space, and I'm claiming this space. You can claim whatever space, but don't try and put your world view on to me because it doesn't fit because you hear a lot of, uh And that was something fascinating me about the the Asian. Like I said, Well, what do you call yourselves and your are we and they can't come up with it. And that's, uh, that's quite sad because I think there's a loss of of identity, of who you are as that sexual, uh, human being that you are. [00:09:30] Can you comment on how the Pacific has been integrated into this conference? Um, I think in this conference it's been excellent because I think it's taken a whole new view because of the inclusion of American Salmons and this inclusion of other These are, you know, for Pacific. We know that these are very, very different people, and that's, uh, put it in a whole different sphere. There's a different role of views, different views about what is the contour that's really challenging. [00:10:00] I think the voice of is quite loud, not by one another. But it's because, you know, I think because we articulate it quite well and the more entrenched that you are in based in your families and things. That's the more articulate you are in and actually able to to say it. So I think that's the benefit of this conference. But the other thing is for Pacific participant, things should be better. It could be a lot better, but I You know, I think it's a It's a good start, and I but the conference itself, I haven't had much time to look at the out games. [00:10:30] Uh, well, I was more interested in the in the the Human Rights conference, so yeah. What would you like to take away from this conference? Uh, the wonderful for me personally, The wonderful for happy number one for me is the presence of, uh, the American. Uh, that's my number one. Yeah. Likewise, knowing coming over here, we do have, uh, our, um you know, big sisters, um, here and very, very happy, [00:11:00] uh, to have met him here, uh, and other sisters from the Pacific. Last question. If somebody hears this in 30 years time, what would you like to say to them 30 years time? I like a young person who were either born in America or Australia or whatever it is to know that this hopefully this voice is today started their absolute, uh, making sure that they will have a voice in 30 years time [00:11:30] and that hopefully they will develop it to the existence of the well to, um just like to, uh, share in, Um, that, um we're still continuing on with the foundation of, uh, in our back home and in international level and, uh, to ensure that they are on the right path now.

IRN: 289
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_fuimaono_karl_pulotu_endemann_keynote.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004123
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089417
TITLE: Fuimaono Karl Pulotu-Endemann - AsiaPacific Outgames
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Fuimaono Karl Pulotu-Endemann; Kevin Hague
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Fuimaono Karl Pulotu-Endemann; Ilott Theatre; Kevin Hague; Wellington Town Hall; history; human rights; transcript online
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Fuimaono Karl Pulotu-Endemann delivers a keynote presentation. Karl is introduced by Kevin Hague. The presentation happened during the opening plenary: Intersectionality - the whole of us.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Our next speaker is I was gonna say an old friend of mine, but you know, as someone I've known for many years, um born in Samoa and having lived in New Zealand for most of his life, Carl has a national profile in the Pacific island community in New Zealand and is recognised as being a pioneer in advocating for and advancing the health and well-being of Pacific peoples in New Zealand. Starting with being one of the first [00:00:30] Pacific registered comprehensive nurses in New Zealand, he has been a strong advocate for the provision of culturally appropriate health services for Pacific peoples. Sitting on a wide range of working parties and commissions, he has provided leadership in the development of such services. He was the first Pacific person to represent Pacific people on the Mental Health Commission. He created and developed the model of health in the 19 eighties, which was accepted as the model of health for Pacific mental health by [00:01:00] the Mental Health Commission. He's played a key role in setting up Pacific Island initiatives at local and national levels, such as being a founding trustee of the Pacific Island AIDS Trust founding Council member for the Pacifica Council and he's one of the first two Pacific Island justices of the peace appointed in Palmerston North in 1990 he is recognised internationally for his work. [00:01:30] He's been a keynote speaker on Pacific Island perspectives on various issues such as mental health, sexuality, HIV and AIDS. Youth and adolescence at national and international conferences, uh, in New Zealand and and across across the Asia Pacific region. And in the 2001 New Year's honours, he was awarded the member of the New Zealand Order of Merit for his contribution to public health. Please join me in welcoming Carl. [00:02:00] High it in my everything is carpi, You're here At last You're really here at last high it in my eye Not a cloud in the sky To coin a phrase This is [00:02:30] the day of days You're welcome as the sunshine and you're welcome as a queen Bye. This is one time we really have a fling it in My everything is throughout the land. We're proud of you. That's why [00:03:00] and from the voices of the Pacific specifically to all our businesses from overseas from the fabulous Cook Islands from the Kingdom of Tonga And I know, I acknowledge, is Jolene, the head of the Association of Tonga. To our brothers [00:03:30] and sisters from the fabulous Fiji from the Rock of Polynesia, otherwise known as and finally, of course, from Samo, where I come from, I really like to pay tribute to from the association, but also from American Samoa. A very special welcome to this country. Now I've got to work [00:04:00] this thing out because, you know, I thought I'd be really special and work this one. But this time one boy doesn't really know how to do it. So I'll just be Well, that's, uh that's the greeting. So I thought I'd start. Uh, people by, Do you point it up there? Would you point it up here or down here? This how you point it? Oh. Oh, here you go. [00:04:30] If it was a one, I can tell you it would have gone much better. I just want to talk about the history and just to show you that this is where we come from. Of course, some people would say this is the largest continent in the world. Is, of course, the ocean Pacific. And you can see, of course, This is the whole of the Pacific, right up to the top to Hawaii. I just wanna start by saying about the pre [00:05:00] colonisation. And when I came to put this up, if you notice the photo of the woman on my left is slightly higher than, uh, the the gentleman on the right, because is the fact that some of us, particularly in Samoa but also have a my research showing that in Tonga and other Pacific countries that women played a very dominant role. But in particular in Samoa, Of course, we had some very powerful women [00:05:30] was a, uh, a very powerful warrior that was mistaken for a man and because she was the one that united the four corners of Samoa. But it said that there was a wind that blew up the corset and indeed she had breasts. And so therefore, she was actually a woman. So you can talk about your but we in the Pacific and, uh uh and also some of us in the audience [00:06:00] are direct descendants of that because she was the first ruler of Samoa. It was not a man, it was a woman. And then, of course, we had the Christians and they came. And if you notice now that I sort of lightly elevated the the man and the woman, of course, became and it's, uh you can't see it, but the terms and I thought that was a really unusual terms. The first thing, of course they did, [00:06:30] was to dress us from the top to the bottom and, you know, and it's really an inappropriate kind of dressing because Sam, for instance, the average, uh, 10% which there is about 32 degrees. But but the the the title they gave to that woman is they call it uh, means means a lamb or sheep, an animal that would be unknown in the Pacific in those periods. So I have all these animals going around on, uh, and it's really don't know what they're talking [00:07:00] about. But can I just say one of the things is the attitudes is the attitude also go back if you if you recognise this when the missionaries left, you know, from Europe, you know, and, uh, all the people was, uh, dressed as six, of course, was not the things you know. You got a lot to because you brought not only the Bible, but you brought your attitude about sexuality to us. And not only that, what they [00:07:30] did for for him was the negative attitudes. But can you imagine the first thing they did, of course, was to dress us. And of course, the other thing was the the negative things about sexuality. So I just want to talk this pre Christians. It was the we say that most people were running around in the darkness an interesting concept. Um and then since the Ministry of the Bible came, we were all running around in the days of the lights, which I thought it was rather unique because some of us still prefer [00:08:00] to be in the dark. I I've done that. What I've done. OK, I've done that. Done that, OK, and if you look at the sexuality, just some of the views they had that's there about men and women rank at a high number number of partners in this side versus the European colonisers view of what? And of course, [00:08:30] the other thing was, the European brought was the view of heroism and the fact that you know it's the only way to go. Can I just say for sis we existed well before and I know that also the or the and the of Hawaii we existed well before the missionaries came to the Pacific. Ask any whalers or sailors around because the story is around. About the early 18 hundreds, [00:09:00] one such sailor went with a very calmly lass behind the bushes and found that it was a calmly lead. So it shows that really existed in that era. I also just want to talk about the Pacific history of the New Zealand context. In 1945 post World War, there was an economic boom and the work was required hence that, uh, there was recruitment in Europe that the term that horrible term £10 [00:09:30] was also and coupled with that was to have the urbanisation of Maori, but also was the recruitment of Pacific people for the first, like forestry farms, freezing factories and fisheries, and some very prominent people in this country. Their history comes back like the very first female judge Suffolk judge, female judge in this country comes from Inver cargo, who Father was a freezing work. [00:10:00] Same time most New Zealanders when they turn on their radio for Radio New Zealand News. One of the very well known news reader is Neva Man. She also her father also belonged to the Ocean Beach freezing works. However, after the seventies, the boom went down and then I believe the second boom came on, which was the 1970. The economic [00:10:30] boom was over and Pacific people, particularly Fijian, Samon and Tonga, over stair on raids. And that's when I believe the six, if came over and basically to use such a French is if back where you come from again, just look at the time strain of polarisation of Pacific people. And there's some really key people in this and the audience. My friend Warren Lindbergh, [00:11:00] for instance, if you call Warren, it was in the eighties that you and I went up to the Pacifica conference up north and we talked about in the formation of issues like the Pacific Island AIDS Trust. I really wanted just to talk about how people view sexuality because I think the attitudes that we have inherited is actually in some cases we still have, and we need to either decolonize our thinking because indeed [00:11:30] the Pacific is colonised by the missionaries and more laterally, the Pacific was hit by that wave of the moral right in the eighties that New Zealand had during with the homosexual law reform. They didn't go back to the West, uh, America, where they came from. They stopped away in the Pacific, and some of the fundamentalism is very much private in the Pacific. But I just wanted to also talk about the the various perspectives of sexuality [00:12:00] and why it was not acceptable to us. For instance, if you look at the biophysical model, the miracle model, of course, is very prevalent, particularly in the seventies, as a psychiatric nurse. Of course, it was very, very close to me because it's only up to the 19 seventies 73 when homosexuality was, of course, taken off at the DS M four or the Diagnostic Statistical Manual. Uh uh, as a sickness, Um, but [00:12:30] a lot of that model, also the works of masters and Johnson's really focuses on the physical aspect of sexuality. The other one, of course, psychological. The Freudian and Rena, the feminist right, so challenged That model has been particularly sexist, and particularly also Eurocentric, the sociological model was the one that we tended to use, but there were still a lot of things that were missing in relation to us. So I came up with this model. [00:13:00] Oops. And this is the model that Kevin was talking about. This is the overall. It looks at the culture of family and all the determinants that really and indeed one of the other posts. I put sexuality in it because it's fundamental to us that Pacific and Maori we see sexuality is fundamentally tied to our culture and also to our families [00:13:30] and history. And I just want to run that for you. The first one, of course, without doubt and I use the mob and I use that, uh, the is the foundation. The foundation is our family. Now that's nothing new. Everybody in this room has a family, whether it's extended or whether it's nuclear or whether it's constituted one of has a family. The second post is what I call the physical, [00:14:00] and again we need to really address the fact that we do have in sexuality our physical. There are physical components to ourselves. The second one is, uh, the mental, and that's self-explanatory. The third one is spirituality, and there's a forefront of, uh, other. And there's other conscience at the root and the cultural values and beliefs. But [00:14:30] I also believe that being in in others, environment, time and context is very important because we live in the two thousands and the context of where the human rights fits in very nicely with that. And that's the model again. And the Pacific Island was an adaptation of that particular model. The concept of the South is [00:15:00] very fluid, and I thought, I'll just quote this from this and that is the concept that we're not by ourselves. Is that a we concept rather than I? And what are the futures? This is what I believe my own personal. One of the first thing I think is we need to claim and hold on to that name because we existed in this part and Pacific while before, while in Europe they talk about inverts, et cetera, and the other one is [00:15:30] about networking ourselves. It's thrilling to be here challenging our own culture and, uh, in conclusion, I want to do this. I'm gonna ask the wants to come up to you because this is a song called Look See You Move on. Got the same Mhm [00:16:00] [00:16:30] [00:17:00] to meet you. A very safe.

IRN: 341
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_evin_wood.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004153
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089447
TITLE: Evin Wood
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Evin Wood
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Evin Wood; human rights; teaching
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Evin Wood from New Zealand talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, I'm Evan Wood, and I've come to the conference this time because I live in a small town of B Ham in the northern part of the South Island. And I worked within human rights, and I still work with, uh, young people coming out, um, in association with, um, a woman at family planning and a woman in public health and a police person. And so we have a little queer group over there, and, um, it's a passion [00:00:30] of mine. What are the main things that you get out of conferences like this? Oh, I felt very emotional this morning, and I felt for Warren Lindberg, who also felt a little emotional because it is so empowering, um, coming from a small town where I don't get together with other gay family very often. And it it's we're such a lovely, wonderfully diverse and supportive family. Were there specific moments [00:01:00] this morning that that you felt stronger than others? Kevin Hague said he'd he'd felt very strongly, and um followed Marin Waring's progress over the years. And when I saw her name on the list, I thought, they have to come because she's been a hero of mine. One of the quotes I often make that, Marilyn is quoted as saying. When she was 25 and in Parliament, she said, she was asked how it felt getting older and she said, Wonderful. The older [00:01:30] I am, the more eccentric I can be. So I've tried to live up to that as I get older, too. It sounds to me like it's been a huge day for you. Oh, yes, it has been. It's been very stimulating and empowering. I just feel like going back and whacking a few people around the ears with a 42. But over the years I've known that that doesn't get anywhere. Really. I am. Yeah. You have to take one little step at a time, and sometimes you have to take a step backwards occasionally. Um, is [00:02:00] this because the place where you're where you're living is that Is it homophobic? Is it? Um, No, I I've seem to have been quite accepted. I I'm openly out without having to wave a flag all the time. Um, but there are things that come up there that irritate me too. And I take a stand on political issues, not just on homophobic, homophobic ones as well. Do you have examples of what's come up? Yeah. In one discussion group I was at, [00:02:30] we were We were talking about other current events and and one of the people said and talking about the previous Labour government and saying, you know, far too liberal social attitudes, including, you know, same sex marriages and so forth. And I got on my awards and told him what? I thought about that too. So yeah, And how did that go down? He ignored it. Yeah. So in Do you think gay and lesbian people are tolerated or accepted [00:03:00] it? It very much depends. Really. Um, I came out when I was teaching at school, and in associated with my coming out I I put down to that, my back fell apart. So that was my major medical misadventure at midlife crisis and so forth. And I had cause to wear overalls at school because I couldn't wear belted trousers. Um, and I decided to wear pink ones, and many of the parents accepted that very well. Others chose not to talk [00:03:30] about it and tried to ignore it. Perhaps, um and and and I alternated those pink ones with mauve ones on the off off week. So, yeah, it's tolerated. Perhaps so long as you're not scaring the horses. Yeah, but the last day of my school teaching, I was just given one class more, a young class to look after. Just to keep me off the playground, probably. And, um, I told them that they didn't. They wanted to know [00:04:00] what I was going to do when I retired. And so I said I was going to be a pirate. And so I asked them, as maybe seven year olds to help me know what I had to do as being a pirate. So we all did things around being a pirate all that day. And at a time when the the film of, um, Peter Pan had just come out and I had to If if I was like Captain Hawke, I had to use lose a hand and lose an eye. And so we went through that day and then we had a a final assembly, and [00:04:30] I got up in my pirate outfit and spoke at the assembly and said how much? I enjoyed my teaching there, but I'd learned something from my class that day that I thought I was going to be a pirate in my future retirement. But I've decided it's better to be who I am. I. I think seeing a lot of people from diverse cultures around the Pacific is just so empowering, really. Um, and I've just a little while ago I was working in Asia and and in China, and and [00:05:00] the different pressures that are on Chinese men who happen to identify as gay are really much more difficult than ours because of the expectation to get married. Um, and it's just so lovely that they were able to come. I've spoken to someone from Hong Kong, Um, and also I have friends over in Marlborough who are working with the IRS E scheme from Vanuatu, and there was a Vanuatu man here, too. So it's lovely to talk [00:05:30] with him about how the culture is accepted in Vanuatu, so that cultural diversity is what's appealed to me, too. Have there been any surprises? A couple of emissions on the programme list of of Chris Carter and Georgina Bayer? I've been disappointed that Georgina hasn't been here because I worked with her when I was working with HIV and AIDS, and she's such a charismatic person. One of the things I find amazing about this conference is thinking that 25 years ago [00:06:00] we were just embarking on law reform. Well, law reform had just happened. And now, 25 years later, we've got 300 people as diverse as you can get. Well, I came out just before law reform, um was passed through parliament and and I just was just so amazing at that time. And and and I got to know a lot of people active within the Wellington community and just downstairs I was speaking to a young police person, one of the diversity police person, and And we have one in who's [00:06:30] out as a lesbian within the police force. And that's just such a huge change. In previous decades, I avoided the places. Yeah, because it was just too scary being a being a gay man in a school. And, um, I I felt a lot of pressure within the teaching because I was teaching young Children and came out while I was doing that and felt the pressure of the Peter Ellis affair. And, um, I hoping something might be discussed about that and and [00:07:00] supporting him and trying to get his conviction annulled or whatever you do with convictions like that. But the opportunity hasn't come up for me to erase that as yet, but I certainly felt that pressure and it caused me to retire when I was 50 from school teaching, which I say was a a good career move, really, because it opened other doors. And so living in B ham, which is quite a small population, is isolation. A big issue for you. When I first [00:07:30] came out, I listened to ABC totally religiously every Saturday morning, and I found that was very strengthening and empowering because I didn't know any other gay men. I. I first came out when I went to a men's gathering around the Fox era area, and it was the first time, at my age of 40 that I'd met an out gay man and and the man who helped me through that weekend was a Quaker, and first [00:08:00] time I'd met someone who was out as a Quaker and out as a gay man, and so I went back to Melbourne, and I thought there must be Quakers here. There must be gay men here. And I found the Quakers. And what about now? How do you feel living in Glenham now? Um, I have friends and family in, so I live there mainly. Sometimes I wonder why. Um it's the climate that keeps me there, and it's very accessible. Being central in New Zealand, I can get to Wellington relatively easily. [00:08:30] Um, and and there are other family around too. Most of them stick together and, you know, just blend in with the community. Really? But I like to stand up and wave the flag or kick shins occasionally too. So, yeah, I do both of those. Yeah. So with this conference, what are the things that you really want to take away from it? Um, to be re empowered to go back and do more work in the in the community with the support that I have [00:09:00] And maybe think of Peter Ellis before we go and see if there's something that we can do there and acknowledge the the United Nations paper that we've been asked to look at and and endorse too. I think that would be important, but yes, strengthening my own energies, I guess. Zipping head. 30 years. And if somebody is listening to this tape in 30 years time, what do you think you would want to say to them? [00:09:30] I think it's important to acknowledge who you are. Um, despite everything. Really? Yeah. Just acknowledge who you are.

IRN: 287
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_elizabeth_kerekere_keynote.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004122
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089416
TITLE: Elizabeth Kerekere - AsiaPacific Outgames
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Elizabeth Kerekere; Kevin Hague
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Elizabeth Kerekere; Ilott Theatre; Kevin Hague; Lee Smith; Ngahuia Te Awekotuku; Wellington Town Hall; activism; growing up; lesbian; research; takatāpui; transcript online
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Elizabeth Kerekere delivers a keynote presentation. Elizabeth is introduced by Kevin Hague. The presentation happened in the Ilott Theatre during the opening plenary: Intersectionality - the whole of us.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm not going to begin by acknowledging everyone. Um, but I am going to, uh, express my particular thanks to Barry for acknowledging the Pike River disaster in his remarks earlier today and to say, a special welcome to Corina and others from Christchurch who are here today. [00:00:30] Um, fantastic. You could make it. No matter what Grant Robertson says, I am the gayest man in Parliament, and if he wants to challenge, I say, Bring it. I'm I'm wearing here today. I you know, I don't get the chance to make a big speech. Well, just to make some introductory remarks I'm wearing today one of my most treasured positions. It's [00:01:00] a It's a pink triangle badge from 1979 I think. Which was our campaign. Actually, in the end against the Warren Free, um, amendment for students in New Zealand history, you'll you'll know that was a particularly important time for us. Um, and the wording on it is a map of New Zealand on it. It's a very faded pink, unlike myself, but the wording on it says we are everywhere and goodness me. I when I look out, look out at this [00:01:30] group of people and Grant was really right about this. You are a fantastic looking bunch of people. I'm not saying that just because you get to vote in the whole gay MP thing. But you it it is amazing for me. And I was speaking with David Henley just before the start that I remember. I think it would be 1989. Joe Crowley and I co chaired, um, a New Zealand Lesbian and Gay conference. And I think that was the [00:02:00] last national lesbian and gay conference that we had in this country. So it's amazing to be here 22 years later, uh, and to be assisting and attending an international conference not only of lesbians and gay men, but of those wider communities. Also, I think the the the themes that you have for the conference, which I I have to say, is probably the most thoroughly policed conference [00:02:30] I've been to in in many years. So thank you, but spread out to deal with the threats. So the the themes of the conference are around strength through diversity, and that's a fantastic theme. Um, because where we get our strength from is both from being who we are the breadth of our communities, but also the intersection of those communities coming together and actually supporting each other. And that's pretty much [00:03:00] the theme for this. For this first, um, plenary session of the conference, those intersections of all of our communities coming together and all of our nations coming together. So I'd like to introduce our our first speaker, Um Elizabeth, uh from the and Elizabeth has 30 years of experience working within Maori and other community organisations. She has been active [00:03:30] in LGBTI FQ communities for over 20 years, with a particular focus on the health and well-being of Tau and Queer Youth, from managing her own consultancy and treaty relations to founding in 2001 as a support advisory and group for to represent at the Lesbian and Gay Archive of New Zealand Board, uh, to [00:04:00] running the Maori programmes out there. Queer Youth Development Project. Elizabeth has walked her talk. She is a sought after speaker and her writing has been published in books and journals. Elizabeth is about to embark on her first on the on the first ever PhD focused on at Victoria University, Wellington, while undertaking the Maori visual arts degree at in Gisborne. So please join me in welcoming Elizabeth [00:04:30] Elizabeth. Firstly, we acknowledge [00:05:00] our mother and our sky father who together sustain us on this earth. I acknowledge the youngest child who sits nestled within his mother and expresses his displeasure with the earthquakes we're experiencing, as we remember and grief for those who have passed away within our our families and our communities. Um, we especially send our thoughts out to those people who in those countries and those places of [00:05:30] Christchurch, Haiti and Japan, who I believe have paid the price with their lives for the continued defilement of our mother Earth through nuclear reactors, oil refineries, mining and so-called land reclamation. I also want to greet the, uh the who opened the man, Uh, an authority to this gathering and for me clear the way for all of us to stand and be here. [00:06:00] Um, my greetings to the organisers and the dignitaries, particularly, uh, Barry and and Gavin, who have made sure I got myself here and got myself organised. I really appreciate it. Particularly want to acknowledge Kevin, who has represented the interests of, uh throughout the planning and organising for the out games and for this conference. OK, last month. I just have to say, like [00:06:30] this week, I have met nearly every lesbian I know they are in Wellington. It's crazy. Yeah, Wellington, you have turned it on. It is so good. Uh, but last month we have the in Gisborne. It's a small coastal town for the centre of the university. Uh, it's my travel home. I recently moved home there. Uh, but after two years of solid practise throughout the country culminated [00:07:00] in this the epitome of Maori cultural performance, or and for each group on stage, though it really struck me that there were hundreds more who didn't qualify, who helped organise in the who were feeding people who were just at home learning all these new the new songs, composing new things and just honing their performance. And because of that throughout the country. For those 42 groups on stage competing overall, the standard is lifted throughout throughout our people. And [00:07:30] I believe this is what this conference does for our queer communities throughout the Asia Pacific and beyond. And I'm very proud to be part of this. I said to Marilyn, I feel like a baby, Uh, before the wisdom and experience of my two, panel members. And I appreciate the opportunity. OK, three key things to say about me. OK, so there is a point why I raised about is that therefore to honour that part [00:08:00] of my culture and all of those queer people throughout our region who, for whatever reason, uh, couldn't be here today? Uh, I've structured my talk. I decided this yesterday and set up last night rewriting it that so if there's kind of pauses, don't worry, talk quietly amongst yourselves. Also, I'm really glad to be speaking first. As each person spoke this morning, I was like, writing all over my notes. I was like, Oh, that's really cool. I want to mention that. So I'm glad to get this done right now, but I've structured my speech then on the bracket that [00:08:30] when the come on, there's a set, uh, process we follow. So I'm concluding this first part the where we make that entry and introductions, uh, three key things about me. My fourth was gonna be that I'm scorpion because I thought that was really important. Uh, but some people would like to talk to me for five minutes. And I guess that, uh, but firstly, first and foremost, I'm Maori indigenous to this country is, as you introduce the and [00:09:00] for me, my name means is one of the layers of the night, the intense the blackness of the night before light existed in the world. Uh, Elizabeth, I was named after my grandmother who was named after the queen moment. I honour my grandmother and, uh mm. And so I get to live at home now, as a full time artist, writer and storyteller number two, I'm a lesbian feminist fan. [00:09:30] I get to. And because of that, I get to enjoy a special connection with the butchers of the world. Uh, but particularly my civil union partner, who in enjoying the lesbian event last night that I got home at a decent hour from, but she got home just before I had to leave to come here. Um, she may not make it for my final way. OK, But on Monday, we celebrated 19 years together, and [00:10:00] and I just want to acknowledge that as as an act of revolution that I highly recommend and finally number three, I'm we've adopted this traditional term to mean Maori who identifies lesbian, gay, transgender Trans queer, Let me double check as queer or questioning and bisexual and being brings together all the different parts of myself, and it gives me a a place on which to stand. [00:10:30] So after the entry, the is usually the the is a traditional incantation, usually dealing with tribal history and and, quite often, a genealogy. And because we are a people from oral traditions, these kind of, uh and chants were used to, uh, ensure that knowledge was passed on from generation to generation correctly. So when we look at and we know that as Maori, we claim our identity [00:11:00] through where we come from, who we descended from, and that leads us to who our where our are, and and that's a key part of who we are. So as then we search for our predecessors, our ancestors, in that past, because that helps cement us and our identity. And so when we look back at the records of the earliest ones, we have a about the 17 seventies sailors and traders who came here, [00:11:30] and they gave pretty much consistent records of same sex and both sex attraction and behaviour, of course, some of them but very attractive. Our Maori Maori men. Apparently it's just rumoured that's what I've heard and that and so in this quote, sexuality was enjoyed in many forms. People chose partners of either sex for pleasure and same sex love was not condemned or vilified. Continuing one's line having, however, [00:12:00] having Children was nevertheless a priority. So you could do what you like as long as you have the kids. OK, it's still like that. It's high performance, though, and erotic skill were greatly admired and accomplished. Individuals both male and female, feature prominently in the chart poems of their time, their physical attributes and relevant behaviours. Fondly detailed It's fabulous. I mean, really, it's a scorpion. I so respect that, [00:12:30] Um, and we have found specific examples within our own oral history narratives, uh, was through the separate research of, um, scholars Lee Smith and Doctor that the term was found. Some of you will be familiar with the, um, the famous love story of and and but it was, uh, the first ever Maori film was actually made about their love story. What is not so much covered is about the relationship had with his best friend [00:13:00] and and one of the, uh, history papers that we found that they found is that when he wasn't with them, he said to his father, I am dying for love, for my friend, for my my beloved for And it is said, I have had a confirmation from from some that, uh, actually let come and live with them and the three of them live together. And so missionary and court records from the 18 eighties also show that [00:13:30] Maori attached no shame or sin to same sex or sex behaviour. And so by this time, the missionaries have been here for quite some time. And as we learned to write, we quickly adapted this new method of storytelling and we recorded out our own stories. One particular meant in 18 53 for the fallen warrior, a youth who was sexual with that woman and with that man. It is interesting that when rewrote or re published in [00:14:00] the, uh about 1928 that the sexual was changed in the Maori to affectionate, and so it it would lead us to believe that there's a lot of history out there that we have to actually go and cast our eye on, uh, the original, all the original documents of anything that's been translated since, uh, that missionary influence so strengthened the colonisation of Maori came into full force. And because we were annoyingly effective [00:14:30] warriors, uh, we enjoyed the dubious pleasure of being both the first indigenous people with whom the mighty British Empire, uh, entered into a treaty with, uh But we're also apparently, I think the last people that they colonised, I think after the Maori, they were over it. It's very good to do that. Hi, But the Treaty of Waitangi in 18 40 was followed by a succession of legislation designed [00:15:00] to eliminate, um, our culture completely un not completely unsuccessful, but we remain. We are here, and we stand and and we represent, uh, so we abandoned some things. Some things, quite rightly perhaps like ritual cannibalism, but can go, um, and the, uh and things like diverse expressions, so of sexual orientation [00:15:30] and gender identity went underground. And so, although the English Laws Act of 1958 that great thing, where in one fell swoop, we inherited the entire legislation of the, um of Britain. Uh, homosexuality became legal illegal in New Zealand. But there's we find no evidence of any Maori punishment for that kind of behaviour. And so for me, when I look at look back on that on that history and reflect on how our Maori people are with [00:16:00] us today, it's I just wonder if the continued silence of our people around that is collusion with the colonisers and and buying into all those Christian beliefs around that, uh or actually, was it a form of protection for us? We won't talk about it. We know you're doing it, but we'll just, you know, pretend it's not going on. And then none of us get into trouble. And so that's something I really, really want to research and actually interview the oldest I can find, [00:16:30] uh, just to say, What are their memories? Because I know my great grandmother was born in 19 01, and she was quite happy to talk about her aunties and cousins who live with women had Children. But, um, never had male partners. So we move from from the past into the contemporary form of form of our action songs and often these are kind of the meaty part of Of of [00:17:00] the bracket. And tell a particular story or focus on a particular topic. This part I want to do the kind of I want to introduce issues around, perhaps a framework for action and how we might influence, uh, what we what it is we want for for the communities that we represent in our different areas and for my work. I use a framework of expectations, which was originally designed to look at an organization's responsiveness to the treaty by [00:17:30] looking at how effective they were for Maori. And I've adopted this tool to use it for you queer queer groups and for youth groups. Uh and so I understand, after a quick word with Marilyn that not everyone shares my excitement about strategic planning and writing policy. What? And so I pick my three out of 11, I'll spare you, um, organisational elements. I think my top three favourites, then, [00:18:00] is about leadership. How your organisation is run right from the beginning and how you lead, um, your group, your people, your organisation into the future decision making. Who sits at the table? Uh who who sees what's going to happen and human resources. We we want the world and we can do that. If we're prepared to work for it, find the people, find what we need to get things done. It's not always about money, but by developing [00:18:30] all of these things. The whole point is that for a lot of organisations, for a lot of whether it's a campaign, starting a new group or analysing and trying to change something that's like being stuck forever in a way that's just not helpful for us is one single thing by itself. Appoint a Maori and put them in a job by themselves and a party organisation. And it's not gonna work. It very, really has, uh, but it makes the the the people in charge feel better. Uh, so [00:19:00] one little thing usually will not work. So what we look is that all these things fit together, they interlock together, and and so by doing that, our expectations is that to be effective for and there's a saying in, uh, the the government sectors of of New Zealand. If you do things right for Maori, they'll be right for everybody else. They'll work for everybody else in our community who is marginalised. But to be effective for the key things are that we are engaged [00:19:30] in all matters that concern us, that services for us are designed and delivered to meet our needs and that resources, systems and key people are made available to achieve this. So rather than go into this in detail, let's leave it right there, and we'll move into the next sweating, exiting. I just made that up. I'm sorry. Um, the next part of the performance is the poi, and some of you will have seen this little balls on string. Then you get really flashed, They glow in the dark and all [00:20:00] sorts of things. And you can imagine imagine this poi on my hand And the poi is in our very gendered society, or especially in the poi, is a tool to show off the grace and beauty of our women. And so quite often, the Po is very lighthearted, uh, and and fun, sometimes a bit naughty, but sexy. Uh, and so I thought, Well, the grace and beauty that's inherent in all of the all of those who lives who live our [00:20:30] lives as women then I think have got a a very clear run on this one. So I wanted to look at at some of the things we have achieved and at one end of the spectrum there are those of us for whom cultural identity is everything. It is the mainstay. I was suddenly like this before I moved to Wellington 21 years ago where I everything I did was for Maori. And the fact that I love women was kind of irrelevant [00:21:00] to my life. It was just a thing over here it was quite incidental to my politics and until the homosexual law reform started and I think I was 2019, 20 when that, um kind of got it happening for me to get involved in. Uh, however, I still want to acknowledge those that we would call who were involved in key development and renaissance of the Maori culture. This includes [00:21:30] the contemporary form of that all Maori practise today in the 19 thirties, Um, this form was developed by who is still hailed as a genius, celebrated every year and at all Maori festivals. Uh, but no mention, of course, of her female partner and development of the Maori ones. We There's all sorts of Maori organisations, leadership and the feminist Maori feminists out. And I have to say, too, I'm very quite prejudiced. I just know more about the lesbian side of things. [00:22:00] Uh, but even the establishment of the the Maori Language Commission, the establishment of Maori television and the show all of these things that, um, we've been part of. And on the other end of that, we've had those who have been strong enough to go out and represent the issues related to our sexual orientation and gender identity and two particular ones I want to acknowledge, I think, uh, Professor Alison Laurie, who's here who is a leader [00:22:30] and lesbian feminism in the 19 seventies, is spearheaded women's studies, gender studies around Southern Hemisphere and today, as chair of the of amongst the many other things that she does. But also, of course, Georgina by who, uh was revolutionary became the first Maori MP as well as prior to that being the first, the first trans MP and the first trans mayor in the world. And of course, there are many more, many, many more who have achieved great things and [00:23:00] I think and honouring our ancestors who have gone before. It is our responsibility to record that to make sure that that's available for for people who are coming after us. This is the part where I've written all over it. Bear with me five minutes, OK, we can do this, people right? But since the late the term came into us, as it was found about the late seventies early eighties and it has increasingly gained traction not [00:23:30] just as a term to refer to Maori, who may be identifying as queer in in whatever way, but as an actual identity which seeks to bring all those parts of ourselves together and focus on issues specific to us so that we don't always have to choose in. Any given circumstance will be Maori today or I'll be today and you'll find it that in most services that are offered in this country in terms of health education, we often have to choose just in life. When we go home, we be the good girl, and when we're in the city, we can go to lesbian things [00:24:00] and hang out with the I call a crowd, keep getting in trouble uh, and I specifically wanted to mention the one and only book that exists about, uh, sexuality and the stories of indigenous people. The fabulous who publishers. I do want to acknowledge for, uh, wanting to publish the book, but didn't want the word on it. Uh, and so that comes to the next. This is like [00:24:30] so the second last thing, the haka traditionally done by our men. I'm fortunate to come from, uh, a tribe where the women traditionally have composed and performed haka. But it is a challenging, physically demanding, uh, I performance. And here we have so much to be proud of in a we are privileged compared to many other countries. People who are represented here, uh, that, as, um Grant [00:25:00] said earlier, we have to resist complacency. It's really important that those of us who are older, who are employed, who have got into that comfort of owning our own homes, of all sorts of things where we don't get hassled when we go to work, that we use that privilege to support those who are not in that position, particularly a young people who are still putting up with things that we haven't had to put up with for a long, long time. And so even though many of us are accepted by our home people, [00:25:30] uh, we know that from the research from our experience in the community that not all Maori are accepted by their family. We still know of young people being kicked out of home when they come out. Um, having trouble, How where do you fit on the If you're trans, what role do you play and how do that fits with the life that you lead and who you are inside, Uh, that we feel pressured to choose between being Maori and being queer to marry and have Children. Are the [00:26:00] youth are significantly more likely to experience bullying, unwanted sexual attention and sexual and mental health problems that both the heterosexual and que counterparts do not or they experience it more so? More likely? Yeah, it's culminates a negative body image and the things about increase, increased risk taking and and and suicide and self-harm that are prevalent in our communities. But sadly, our Maori elders haven't been [00:26:30] really great about being supportive of us, and I won't go into the negative things that some of our Maori party members have not voted and supported us on, uh, or ridiculous marches to Parliament by ridiculous heads of ridiculous churches. So that's true about two minutes. [00:27:00] So finally, at the end of each performance is the it's a conclusion. It's to clear the way and and and come off the stage. And for those of us from minority cultures, we are well aware that the do the dominant culture is not going to just hand things over. We can decide to take things by force, being the fabulous, loving people we are. We go, um, let's take a bit more time and we'll use our influence and use, uh, all of the skill, [00:27:30] knowledge and resources we have to hand to influence things in a way so that we are not actually repeating the discrimination that it's often used against us. What the press? What does the future hold? OK, I thought through the experience of now Maori leaders, uh, that we it will be good to research how the impact of colonisation on Maori sexuality has manifested itself in Maori culture. Uh, by developing effective [00:28:00] strategies to reduce homophobia and transphobia and contemporary Maori life that we can create a safer environment for particularly our young people. And by connecting the past to the present, we honour the memories of those ancestors and whose footsteps we follow. And amongst ourselves, we strive to create meaningful intersections of our culture, gender and sexuality. Because can we create spaces of acceptance, safety and love which do not require silence and sacrifice? I believe so. [00:28:30] We have done it here. We will keep doing it. OK, Can I have I got time to do a quick song. OK? OK, like Auntie Juan said when she's there is a traditional or that we do a I thought I would get my of people to join me in the little [00:29:00] You may hear it at different times in this conference at, um come away. Yeah. Oh, in me God Fuck, yeah. Not, um [00:29:30] in that talk to love. Yeah, in my sorry water water. Oh, [00:30:00] kill that.

IRN: 340
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_david_hindley.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004151
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089445
TITLE: David Hindley
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: David Hindley
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); David Hindley; human rights
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Civic Square / Te Ngākau, Civic Square/Te Ngākau, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast David Hindley, co-chair of the 2nd AsiaPacific Outgames reflects on the activities over the last week.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: It's been absolutely magic week. You know, we we started off with that incredible opening ceremony. Uh, fantastic Wellington day, walking on the waterfront to te papa. And here we are at the closing ceremony. Another fantastic Wellington day. But what? What a heck of a lot we've done this week. You know what? What amazing, extraordinary things have happened over the last 78 days. What are some of the highlights been for you? I think there's there's highlights on different levels. Some of them are just the events like the um The cultural dinner at was just an amazing experience. I think, for [00:00:30] everybody who was there, just the crowd that was there. What happened? The atmosphere in the room was was just extraordinary. Nobody really wanted to leave. But then there's lots of little things that you see which really touch you. Particularly some of the people I think who came from overseas who were quite shy, maybe not particularly confident about themselves about being open as to who they were in public, and they would come out of the hub and put their take their ID away. And then after a couple of days, you'd see them walking around town with their heads held high, wearing their [00:01:00] ID, wearing an eight games t-shirt. Obviously very, very comfortable and proud and happy, and that that sort of flourishing, that sort of flowering of of people was just wonderful. Are there any other examples of that? I think there's There's been quite a few, uh, things during the, um during the week when we've seen in the sports area, for example, some people do things which were quite a big challenge for them. Uh, one of the magical things about our sports competitions is they cater for all abilities. So you have people [00:01:30] like Kirsty at one end breaking World Masters Records, which is just a phenomenal achievement. But we also have people at the other end who have, uh, really set themselves some high challenges, some big goals which are just just their personal goals for themselves, and they go out. They've trained for quite a long period of time, and then they just go for it and they achieve for them. And that's fantastic as well. This has been a huge logistical exercise for the organising committee. How how many people were involved in in getting this up and running. [00:02:00] And how long did it take? It was really over 2. 5 years. At one stage, I counted, uh, something like 229 people who were lending a hand in different areas. Uh, looking at the financial side, there are 33 separate budgets, uh, being held across different areas. So Mark Ferry and the and the finance team, they have just done an extraordinary job of managing all that. Um, so it has been a huge logistical exercise, but, um, Wellington has done really well. The Wellington community has been totally behind it. The City Council [00:02:30] has been totally behind it, and, uh, we've brought it off. How has greater Wellington responded to to so many queer people in town? I think they've responded really well, I've I've heard some fantastic feedback, uh, of of people here who have wonderful personal experiences around Wellington. Just talking to some of the locals, asking directions to things. Um I think just the visibility that we've had around town, people can see the lanyards and the t-shirts and so on. Um and [00:03:00] it's been it's been very well received. What about media coverage? media coverage, Uh, has been a little bit all over the place. Mainstream media. We've had some great mainstream media from, uh, radio from particular areas of Radio New Zealand and and some other, um, places, uh, gay nz dot com and the gay media Sydney Star Observer. Uh, those sorts of places Joy FM, have done some fantastic stuff and and that's been, um, that's been extraordinary. The coverage, the time, the energy, the passion that they put into that [00:03:30] If there was looking well, I mean, we we we're still part of the the the the week. But I mean, I guess in hindsight, was there anything that you would have changed about this what you've done so far? You know, I can't think of anything off the top of my head. I think so many things that we wanted to happen have happened, and, um and the feedback has been fantastic. Um, there's there's just minor details, but again for a for a volunteer effort with, with all of the [00:04:00] exac being people who had very busy day jobs and then doing this on top, Uh, I think what we've achieved is extraordinary, and I'm absolutely proud of all the people who have been involved in this, can you describe just the spirit? Uh, especially last Saturday when there was 1500 people in the square and marching. Can you describe what that was like? It was, I think everybody who came here, uh, was just completely blown away by the fact that it wasn't just a group of people arriving at, uh 4 [00:04:30] 30 then going off to take part in the opening ceremony. The buzz was there all day out in the square, was packed and was was really busy all day and people just mixing and and meeting. And that was just the sheer numbers I think were very, very exciting. But then, as we got together under the banner for the different countries and people realised who was here and that so many different countries around the world, so many different parts of the world were represented here, Uh, was just absolutely magic. And then being able to walk around [00:05:00] the waterfront to te papa and go into te papa was, um was an incredibly rare experience. What will you take away from this conference and week? Uh, I think I'll take away several things. One, personally, I I've found it, um, hugely rewarding exercise. Um, it's been an enormous pleasure to spend so much time working with people who are absolutely passionate about what they're doing, but also bringing [00:05:30] huge numbers of skills and a huge experience to it. And so, working with that very wide team, But working with the exec team in particular has been a real delight. Um, I think it's been marvellous for someone who lives in Wellington to, uh, it's just an incredible sense of pride. I feel how well Wellington has hosted this. All the different venues, the City Council, the businesses getting behind it. Um, it's, uh, we've really done ourselves proud. So [00:06:00] when's the next one? Well, you know that. I mean, that's one of the most exciting things about this stage of the event is that people are thinking, Well, this was just awesome. When's the next one? What can we look forward to? When when can we start saving and training and all those sorts of things? And there are some incredibly exciting, um, suggestions around as to where things could potentially be be held like Kathmandu, Nepal. I mean, how amazing. Would that be just what a what a what an event that will be. Uh, but there [00:06:30] are other cities that I know are sort of quietly having conversations, saying, We can do this, We can do this. Let's put in a bid. So I think the next six months it's going to be very exciting seeing um, seeing what develops in that area. And I think there's quite a lot of people in Wellington who've had such a great experience doing this, that we'd be very happy to lend our experience and lend some time and ideas to whoever is, uh, planning to host the third, uh, Asia Pacific Art Games. If somebody is listening to this in 30 years time, what [00:07:00] would you like to say to them? I'd like to say to them that, uh, this has been a week. This has been an incredibly moving week for an awful lot of people. The the atmosphere in so many different events, um, has been a really rich, warm atmosphere which has just touched so many people's hearts. Uh, we've had the motto was Play Excite, Inspire. We've certainly played and excited and inspired, and it's going to be a week [00:07:30] that I think people who've been involved will look back on very fondly for the rest of their lives.

IRN: 339
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_danae_and_gibson_and_greg_adkins.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004150
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089444
TITLE: Danae Gibson and Greg Adkins
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Danae Gibson; Greg Adkins
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Australia; Danae Gibson; Greg Adkins; human rights
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Danae Gibson and Greg Adkins from Australia reflect on the 2nd AsiaPacific Outgames.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: We've just had the closing ceremony. Quite sad, but also rather beautiful. Tell me what you think. I was just saying outside talking to a few friends I already have. And some new ones. I've just made that the theme for this week was Play Excite Inspire. And the fourth word for me is feel, uh, and the last three days have been filled with feeling, um some of that [00:00:30] has been the physical environment, and some of it has been the intellectual stimulation. And much of it has been the song and the sharing of, uh, of people from many, many places. Lovely. And for me, it's the, um that this will stick in people's mind and they'll come back and connect to it as they go through the next 5, 10, 2040 years of activism and building our community. [00:01:00] And today is gonna be an important part of that, um, that road that they'll reflect on and grow through the experience. Have you been to a human rights conference before? I haven't. Right. So what brought you here in the first place? I work at the GLBT radio station in Melbourne. Join 94. 9 and I've come from the west coast of Australia, which seems a gazillion [00:01:30] miles away right now, and I've really enjoyed being, um I've enjoyed the opportunity to work and live in Melbourne. And when I realised that I was closer to New Zealand than I was to Perth for the first time in my life, um, and that the out games, competition and conference would be in Wellington. I, um I spoke with Greg immediately about how we [00:02:00] could share our experiences of the Idaho campaign, the International Day against Homophobia with a broader audience and make the most of an opportunity to meet people from Asia and Pacific. It isn't on the beaten track, is it human rights? Well, it isn't on the obvious beaten track. Um, I'm 49 50 in a couple of weeks, and, um, I think my first human rights conference when I was about 16, I went as a straight [00:02:30] person or into a straight environment not being out. And it's probably Oh, it's probably interesting to be part of the human rights movement all the way through 34 years and seeing different parts of how we collect and and, uh, it relates to the work you do when you work in gay community, just as Donna does with radio. I've, you know, um, 20 years ago, I worked in AIDS councils. Um, HIV was the predominant human right that gay men were pushing for [00:03:00] and working with. And, uh, we now coalesce with women with trans with intersex, um, with groupings from within ourselves that we didn't know existed. Um, human rights perhaps, has always been there as a journey for us. But, Tony, now we see that we actually have a role. Uh, not just in having the rights as individuals, but in progressing the rights of other people we collect with including, perhaps, heterosexuals. There's a spinoff here that brought, you know, where the broader community benefits by the work we do [00:03:30] as activists for human rights for our community. Can you think of an achievement that one particular achievement that the conference has accomplished here at this conference? So it's the removing of the blindfold that many gay, lesbian, trans intersex gen people have about other people. They have blindfolds. We have blindfolds, layers upon layers of blindfolds, even masks. And we've got to remove those [00:04:00] to start to truly see ourselves through other people's eyes. And that's the benefit I see through conferences like this. We talked about it being off the beaten track. Uh, and apart from the road imagery, uh, I think of this as, um, bridge building and the great thing about bridges, uh, that they join places and you can come to and from those places. And I feel [00:04:30] I feel connected with people that I haven't had an opportunity to meet and work with before. They can be a short cut as well. Can't they take a lot of travelling? All of a sudden? It's a very picturesque bridge we've built here. And it's a validating experience, too, because for all of us, whatever we do in our communities, from our perspective, it actually checks in and says, This is real and this is a good thing to do. So it's actually an empowering and validating experience that grows us [00:05:00] further and pushes us further in new ways. Hopefully, do you see another conference taking place? Yes, I'd like Samoa. I'm putting the vote up for Samoa. I think that would be lovely. Yes, yes, I see. Um, this work continuing, it'd be lovely to, um, connect people outside Asia Pacific with these conferences in, uh, where you can go to an Internet cafe in Africa and tune in to the happenings at all the session of this conference [00:05:30] and likewise, we could look at a similar conference in the African continent and connect with their culture through our experiences. So maybe there there are multiple conferences run at the same time in different parts of the globe. That can connect virtually which would be a great way to take future, uh, connections of G BT IQ community. I think we're early adopters of of technologies. And I think there's I see the next conference as as really expanding on that, um, [00:06:00] that that we can record that we can share digitally. Uh, for those of us who can't be in a physical location. I work in a radio station. There's, uh, I. I could imagine us being based in the conference as as well as a hub. Um, I think there are lots of ways to connect, but in lots of ways we can't take away from that physical reality of, uh, it. It's been a very visceral experience. [00:06:30] Um, going back to that feeling technology for you or I'm with I. I can see a conference radio station effectively that, um, broadcast and interviews and creates a community for the life of the conference. And then the quality audio goes out like sparks like lightning bolts to various communities, gay and straight communities and provides audio content, instant feedback, instant connection to the the lot of us that are, perhaps [00:07:00] aren't connected to community that are gays, lesbians, trans living in the broader community, not connected back to our rainbow communities. We felt these interviews could be a start, but for the archive, if you like to be alive and continuing a living archive, a living, a dynamic living organism that that just lives on, I think that's fabulous. That's a good way of having it. And I think the participants in this conference are the living [00:07:30] archive of of our communities. I loved that there were young people, old people and everything in between. Hm. It'd be lovely to capture the young people's voices and in 10 years, 20 years time, sit down and reinter interview them and talk about the the shift that's happened between today and 10 20 years from now. I met a woman who'd been to the Melbourne conference [00:08:00] and she saw great continuity. Really. I was wondering if she saw contrast. But I think I think she saw it as much to do with continuity as anything I was in Melbourne and I. I actually I've seen a maturity about this conference that wasn't there. In Melbourne, there's a, um it's now an adolescent. It wasn't an adolescent before it's grown and it's evolved further and it's a beautiful thing. So who knows where we'll go? [00:08:30] Do we have to wait three more years? I don't know. As well as suggesting Samoa, you could also write Well, how about a year's time? I think it. Congratulations to all the organisers and including those recording people's commentary, because that was something I really enjoyed today. Was that not instant, but feedback about the experience within the experience rather than a paper in three [00:09:00] months time? Or, you know, I've recorded some things that I want to to play with as a personal creative project. Um, I have no obligation to put that to air, but, uh, it was great to hear participants and organisers reflect back today. I think that was a great thing. I wonder if that's part of the maturity you were talking about. I think it's part of the maturity. That's the um Ah, it is the connection to culture as well. There's a little bit, uh, depth of culture in such a recent [00:09:30] country as New Zealand has, where we're a more ancient co country that is disconnected from its 40,000 year old culture. So that's the beauty about this. It's connecting to indigenous people in a way that we just can't achieve because of the journey Australia's been through. And, uh, I. I think that's the credit of this and the depth that's come and in a way that hopefully for me, Um, the stuff I do back in the country I come from renews my connectiveness back to culture and back to indigenous culture, and the way we can [00:10:00] do that. There was an aboriginal one aboriginal woman. Um, I I believe that there was a small group. There were more at the Melbourne conference. Do you think this is a step back for? Do you think it's something we should have done more to make sure that there were more aboriginal people. I don't think it's a step back. I think it's a it. It's We're taking a roundabout route [00:10:30] because you you need to connect to more parts of an indigenous community, not just the people that have the funding or have the access or have the services that support them. It's about connecting to the people that are disconnected currently and won't connect. So this is a bit of a wake-up call on how to be more innovative and smart on how to connect to indigenous community back in Australia. So I think it's quite timely and personal things. You're going to take back [00:11:00] a new hat, which is awesome. Um, I've got a picture of the tradesmen out the front of the conference, which I'm thankful. I'm thankful to New Zealand for putting on the tradesmen to start and the finish of the Con Conference fabulous for me. I I've had a, uh, a chance to have some time to to listen and share conversations with people and think and, uh, be inspired. So I take a renewed energy [00:11:30] back with me, and I thought my last thought is, um, it's about Barry Taylor because UM, probably 18 years. So it's allowed me to continue a friendship and see yet another part of that man's life, and he's been a great person his whole life. But it's fascinating to see how new dimensions have popped out of this individual. I thought I knew, but, uh, he's an amazing individual.

IRN: 317
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ATL REF: OHDL-004202
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089496
TITLE: Conference closing - AsiaPacific Outgames
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Anne Speir; Barry Taylor; Michael Stevens
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Anne Speir; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Barry Taylor; GLISA Asia Pacific; Michael Stevens; Wellington Town Hall; human rights
DATE: 18 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the closing of the Human Rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Just a couple of little, uh uh, housekeeping. But don't forget your evaluation sheets. You can put them up the back and, uh, Paul Mill. Paul Mills. You have lost your card. And if you're going to any of the parties, you'll need that to get in. You can see me. Uh, just very quickly. I didn't say where he can see me. Uh uh. Yes. Well, [00:00:30] I haven't got time. I want my ginger us, um, people in New Zealand. Just a little domestic thing. Um, people have said, Well, we're too next. This has been an amazing experience for New Zealand. I just want to ask Michael Stevens very briefly to come up and to say we're next. Michael Stevens and Spear. We are the co-chair of a new organisation [00:01:00] called the A Rainbow Alliance. And there's a and, um who we are well and myself. There are other board members here. Anna Birkenhead works at outline. Um, Priscilla here from Rainbow Youth. We've got Mark Henrickson, who is responsible for lavender islands for the research there. Paul hid, um, from Auckland. Um, and I think we've got everyone, haven't we? That's why [00:01:30] have we established ourselves where we need a national voice. We have no national organisation to represent the Rainbow Communities. And there's been a widespread perception. I think that we do need to have a body like us. Um, we need action, and we need to start somewhere. So we've started somewhere. Uh, what we are. We are an alliance of organisations and individuals with the goal of strengthening our rainbow communities. Um, with, uh, strengthening our rainbow community [00:02:00] well being facilitating the growth of our networks and advocating for the rights and issues that affect our rainbow communities. Now, we've only had 32 hour meetings. We are just taking our baby steps. We're an incorporated society. We've got a constitution. We're debating our principles. Um, we're working. We've got another meeting coming up next week. Watch this space. As I say. We're not here to be an empire. We're here to be an alliance [00:02:30] to bring groups together to work together for, um, the Rainbow Communities throughout this country. Absolutely. No, no. There's nothing more to add. There's nothing more to add, but just please, um do give us feedback. We are having to We are an Auckland centric group at this point. which is pointed out to me already this morning. But we are reaching out to go further than Auckland. But we have to start from somewhere. And as we say, baby steps is the way to take big steps. So watch this space. [00:03:00] Thank you. Uh, I'm just, uh uh We now have, uh, just, uh, someone, uh from glia, which has been the overall, uh, organisation to how they're going to just have a few words. Thank you. [00:03:30] Thank you, Barry. A K order. Rainbow family. Uh, my name is at Murray, and I'm on the board of Glia Asia Pacific, along with Peter Segar, Karen Moses, Kevin um, and Nick Ward and Frank Brady, who are not here. It is perhaps a little remiss of us not to have introduced ourselves to you before now, but let us address that by telling you where we come from. [00:04:00] So in 2006, um, 4 people two from Melbourne, one from Sydney and one from Adelaide got together on a hot summer's day in Melbourne to create a Pacific. It was an idea to bring together the rainbow communities of the Asia Pacific around sport, culture and human rights. Those four people admittedly were all sports people. We didn't know how and we didn't know who. And we didn't [00:04:30] know if people would wanna come and want to be part of it all. But Melbourne, uh, accepted the challenge to host the first Asia Pacific Out games in 2008 people came. People supported people, uh, accepted it. Then. Glee. Asia Pacific was blessed with wonderful Wellington coming forward to invite us all together again. And here we are, still growing. Still developing also still taking baby steps. Uh, my name is Kevin [00:05:00] I and three others from Wellington saw the vision that Lisa Asia Pacific presented, uh, to us as a community. And so we decided that yes, let's join that vision. I decided. Yes. Personally, I'd like to join that vision. And so when I joined that vision, I brought with me my culture and my to make sure that that [00:05:30] vision was inclusive of me. So what is our vision? Our vision is to encourage participation to strengthen individual communities and to create an active Asia Pacific rainbow community. So how could we all participate to activate, nurture [00:06:00] keeping this wonderful momentum alive? and just like Michael said, we're two from here. Well, glia Asia Pacific is not another organisation that seeks to, um, take action and, um, and deliver. Rather, we are an enabler. We support others to make it happen through sports, culture and human rights events and networks. We're not about replicating what you're already doing in fabulous, [00:06:30] amazing, wonderful ways. We're about creating spaces for you to share what you're doing and linking you with others who are already doing similar things in different places. Already, we've opened doors and we celebrate with Wellington. 2011 incorporated the success of this sports culture and human rights events, the second Asia Pacific Art Games, and we thank you for your stories and for extending our understandings. [00:07:00] However, this is not the end of the journey. We're inviting you if you haven't already to join us in opening more doors and building further opportunities. So we ask that you or your organisation join us at GSAAP dot org because there is strength in diversity and together we make a difference. Thank you. [00:07:30] Thank you. Um, we have asked a couple of people who have been as part of the conference just to continue that reflection as we start to close and draw. And the 1st 1st, just to reflect on the experience of this conference has been for them. And the first person I'd like to invite, uh is, uh, Prue Hyman. It's Barry. [00:08:00] Uh, we not only have five minutes each, which is impossible as anybody who knows me. I only think in 50 minutes, like all academics Kota, Qatar. For me, it's been a splendid three days, great and symbolic to have the increasing score of number of countries signing up to the statement 70 78 80. Wow. Having just heard about the two Lambda Literary Awards, I'd like to start with saying, How tremendous was the film evening [00:08:30] yesterday? Those of you who didn't make it to the dinner? Uh, it goes beautifully with the Lambda Literary Award. We started with grace poor, and most of you saw her trailer this morning. So I'll concentrate on Kirsty McDonald, Rebecca Swan, Mary Mitchell and Jack Byrne, who were here doing a wonderful Q and a after the film of assume Nothing and the book's been nominated were shown. I've seen the film before, but it was even more meaningful seeing it again and seeing [00:09:00] it with a terrific Q and Q and a afterwards. And, you know, it was really humbling hearing the personal stories, Um, more of them than I knew before. Marie's intersex story, Jack's, um, trans story and so on. It was fabulous. Um, next, uh, for this five minutes, I had a look back because I'm on the conference organising group. I thought I'd better have a look at the initial vision and the conference Purpose Connect, Collaborate and Spa. It did it for me. We'll learn from your feedback forms if it did it for you. [00:09:30] We all have our own conferences. Of course, because of these horrible choices, Ros talked about all the streams. I come myself from an a New Zealand lesbian feminist background after an English childhood. Um, my conference had two sort of streams to it myself. Contrasting but complimentary. The first was, um, connecting with the lesbian sessions, the lesbian visibility. I sort of reflect on the fact that so many groups find themselves sort of invisible within our [00:10:00] whatever, Um, soup. And you know, that's perfectly reasonable. We all need to be visible, and we need to be there each stream and together in coalitions. But certainly it's true that lesbians, you may all think we're all incredibly loud and proud and everything else. But often I and some others feel that the word itself and its lesbian feminist idea years have disappeared again into Queer Soup or even disapproved of [00:10:30] in some quarters. And Susan Hawthorne's paper was referred to by Boris, and that was a paper specifically on violence against lesbians and lesbian human rights, which still need plenty of attention. Separately, along with the violence and human rights is used among all our brothers and sisters in their groups. And I heard and discussed much about what's happening in lesbian communities and the needs of younger and older lesbians, lesbian parenting and dealing with schools, issues, lesbian communities [00:11:00] and resources and what there is still to do so. For me, working and talking separately when we need to, as well as together in coalitions is still essential. My second stream, for me was learning far more than I knew before about many groups and countries throughout the Asia Pacific region, their working in coalitions. After this, I'll try to learn and understand more than just, say, LGBTI QMVPFFF. And remember [00:11:30] that for many of us we're talking cultural identity more than sexual identity. And I'll also try and build on the lessons I learned from Asian experience from speakers like Grace poor and Getting Misra about the risks and lessons and strategies. Very thoughtful talks from organising in Asia and closer to home, being reminded by Elizabeth Kerry Kerry that if it's good for Maori, it's good for all marginalised groups. Next, [00:12:00] equality and dignity are two of the core words we've heard a lot of on these three days. Yes, yes, yes to both of them. But not please, simply equality to the heterosexual Norm Um Instead, let's create our own norms. And so for many of us of us, while, of course, marriage is better than civil union, Um, we don't I don't want to forget the lesbian feminist critiques [00:12:30] of marriage as being often actually bad for women. They still need to be heard. So let's not a that institution. Let's create our own superior relationships and family structures and friendship networks. We are already which matter, and let's remember that our all total family structures and our friendship networks often matter just as much as or more than the couple relationships. Even [00:13:00] though I'm a happy happily partner for 13 years, I think those broader ones are just as important. And single single LGBTI S also have their very strong concerns. And often, for example, if they're older, need a great deal of support. Um, so the next one was dignity? Yes, of course, we need to be treated with dignity, but let us also be strong, outrageous and undignified. [00:13:30] Just as Marilyn Waring said, Silence allows discrimination. But there are a lot of paradoxes. Mostly, um, as as we had at one of the plenaries wonderful statement. We say it as it is loud and out. But there was a reply for the next speaker. Yes, but some of us we don't say it as it is. We can't say it as it is at the moment, and that has to be respected as well. But most of us who are in a position [00:14:00] to be strong, outrageous and undignified can be so to the challenges ahead. Uh, I was told I had to have that section working for full human rights for all of us and all other marginalised groups in the world working together to make the world more socially, just better for all. What I'm now going to try and call [00:14:30] and and all others suffering persecution, discrimination or inequality on any grounds. Ethnicity, class, religion, age, sex, gender, disability and all their intersection with being because we all have multiple identities. Let's go from here soon. Work for all this in our own groups and coalitions with our own priorities, building on what we've learned, Let's keep in touch and meet again. And finally, [00:15:00] as we have heard often and rightly, there's no movement without music and song we've heard and shared in my world in all this. In all this world we've heard and shared over the three days many wonderful art and songs which are crucial to many of our cultures. One of my identities is my Jewish culture, and I did just want to say that we've had critiques of religion over the last few days and and and some here and, of course, [00:15:30] religious fundamentalist fundamentalism. We all critique. It's very it has a lot of harmful impacts. But of course, religion, as we've also been, is very crucial to an awful lot of people. And they, uh, many in the Pacific. It's really important to to their identities. Uh, I call myself a Jewish agnostic, actually. But my Jewishness is still extremely important to me. And, um, I should mention that not all the liberal [00:16:00] end of many religions are very much with us and not against us. We've had Margaret Maman, of course, here all all three days. And she's a, I'm afraid I don't know, Christian nominations, but anyway, she's a minister. No, we have also. We've also had Rabbi Dean Shapiro here from Beth Shalom, uh, in Auckland, who is an out gay rabbi. There are out lesbian rabbis as well. We haven't got one in New Zealand at the moment. Somebody [00:16:30] said I ought to be one, but I don't think it's my scene. Quite so. I'm finishing. We are finishing with singing a Jewish song. Uh, Ruth and, um, Sonia have joined me. And if anyone else is Jewish or knows, please join in. Uh, this is and it's about sitting and sharing and with our brothers and sisters. So from here, please. Um after everybody else has spoken, [00:17:00] of course, live in peace. and Charlo Peace to all he name my to my to I am. Yeah. So [00:17:30] the he never told him I seen Yeah. Oh, shit. [00:18:00] 25 years ago, Uh, in the a room next door, there was a lot of lies and hatred often spoken during the homosexual law reform. Um, I think we have well and truly exercised that hatred out of this venue today. [00:18:30] I'd now like to invite, uh, a stunning woman, uh, Joe Mali from Tonga to give her reflections. [00:19:00] You all must be thinking, Gosh, that lady can stay in hills all day. For your information, I was born with heels, and I will die with heels, but well, [00:19:30] I was asked by my beautiful new husband. Vary to give a reflection or an overview of the conference. Well, Barry, in the Pacific, it's custom that I take it back to our caucus to our sisters, brothers and our sister girls or our sister boys. [00:20:00] Um, that I get all their recommendations and their inputs as a president of the Pacific sexual diversity. It is only right that I do that. And we are very fortunate that you were kind enough to give us a room for our caucus even though it was only 20 minutes. Yeah, and please bear with me with this. This is more recommendations. Um, [00:20:30] it may may sound like that we are the arches of the conference. Mhm. But But as human, as a human rights defender, we're here to take a stand in the Pacific caucus. We have representation from the following Pacific Islands, Samoa, Fiji, Tonga, Cook Islands, Vanuatu, American Samoa. And we had the [00:21:00] privilege of having the beautiful from Asia. Our overview of the Second Asia Pacific Human Rights Conference is to first acknowledge our sincere gratitude our participate for our participation and for having a voice. Secondly, we would like to make a special mention to the of A [00:21:30] for hosting us, the Kingdom of the Netherlands and to the organising committee of this conference. OK, our key recommendations. First of all, funding, funding, funding. We feel that funding is a key element for our specific and I know it applies to [00:22:00] a lot of others other countries to enable us to action our advocacy of human rights as elaborated by our Pacific keynote speakers. Secondly, representation, representation, representation, we would like to stress the importance of having a Pacific voice in every stage of process and planning. What we mean is from the conceptual stage [00:22:30] to the end. Therefore, we as the Pacific must be in every aspect of decision making. If it ain't Pacific, then be specific. I told you it will sound like one number three culturally appropriate identity terms. We respect the position of LGBTI. [00:23:00] Don't get us wrong, and we ask that you respect the decision of MVPFF. And if you're confused, I'm confused, too. To that woman. It is our identity. It defines who we are. Number four. Balance of issues. What we found from the Pacific Caucus with their experiences of this conference. For there is a gap [00:23:30] and not an equal balance of all issues that is being lesbian sex workers Trans and MVPFF five. Lastly, further Pacific forums. Just make sure that we don't have the Pacific forums all in one time, especially when there's too many queens from the Kingdom of the Pacific, [00:24:00] tying into the funding recommendations to allow for Pacific forums to happen. To discuss relevant Pacific human rights issues to align with international human rights and future games conferences to sum up funding, representation and VPFF balance and development. We [00:24:30] come a long way and we have a long way to go. We have been told, Don't bite the hand that feeds us. But the hand that feeds feeds us must also guide us. Nurture us, support us and sustain us. Thank you, Marlo Alto. [00:25:00] I just want to say that, uh, this we want to make a presentation. But I just want to go back to the greetings and, uh when Tahitian says, and the Cook Islands extend to you or the operative words in those greetings is which means life. And when the Tongans extend to you their greetings of [00:25:30] and the of and indeed from the Republic of Fiji, which is via the operative words and those are and which means loosely wellness or goodness. And finally, when the Samons and the new extend their greetings of the operative words and those greetings is a So in other words, they extend to each and every one of you life [00:26:00] transmitted in wellness and goodness but cocoon in love always. And I thought it was a really appropriate way to extend those greetings. And but those messages to a very special person here today because the Pacific Caucus would like to present in their own way in the expression of life, wellness and goodness. But always that was done, extended to them in love by Barry Taylor. [00:26:30] I'm now going to ask the Fijian they are going to sing because they're the largest, is is. But can I just on behalf of the caucus of all the Pacific extend this, uh, is a or a treasure or tapa that was done by groups of wonderful tonnes and and, uh really to extend to our to you personally, [00:27:00] Barry, a sincere thank you that I have all the Pacific people I know for. And Suzanne, join us, please. [00:27:30] And Jack, I'm terribly sorry. I wanted to be here for the film. That's why I sneaked into your little preview at the at one of the in the room. Unfortunately, in this conference, they have just made me the Reverend. I've never prayed so many times in public, so I had to disappear last night for that function. The [00:28:00] as it is tradition in the Pacific, we end everything with the and we would like to sing a song that we the Pacific Islands will probably know. But I'm sure you're tired of listening to the San Juan songs. I can't sing a song because they don't know what it is. I will do [00:28:30] a Fijian song that we are all familiar with. And it's a farewell song called Isa Isa. Mhm. So yes. Hm. I Yeah. [00:29:00] Oh, but so [00:29:30] So, uh, because, um on and [00:30:00] Yeah. [00:30:30] Thank you. I'm Hamish. I'm, um, operations [00:31:00] and logistics for art games. And, um, I was fortunate enough to have the first conversation with Barry Taylor and recruit him into the position of conference convenor. Um, and it's a great pleasure that I, um give him the, um, our our gold medal for, um, it's a gold medal. It's, um, for, um, a fabulous job in creating and crafting and lovingly, um, bringing together this conference so really on on [00:31:30] behalf of the out games committee. Thank you. Hm. [00:32:00] Well, I knew I wasn't gonna get a medal in solo synchronised swimming, so I had to get it in something. Right. Thank you. Um, well, look, I haven't done it myself. It's been an amazing group, and I just want to introduce and to thank that group for what has been a tremendous experience. [00:32:30] We've had a few little tensions at times. We've had a few tears, but no, I've not got a tale about those things. Uh, but I just want to acknowledge, and some of them couldn't make it here, but, uh, Andrew Camp, Is Andrew here? Andrew Campbell from, uh, out at work. Uh, Judy Ellison. Where's Judy? Stand up, Judy for the learning stream. Uh, Alison, Laurie and Gavin for, um, uh, store [00:33:00] for the stories. Liz from wellness. And she got the other and well, being Margaret Maman for spirit. I not No, I think she was. Had to go. Uh, Katrine Evans, who is not here from, uh, law, uh, for the legacy box. Where's Jim? Oh, he's most probably out interviewing someone, um, Prue in terms of the human rights, [00:33:30] uh, film session last night. And for two incredible women who just made everything else that I didn't have to worry about. The logistics Carol and Dawn. Um, and, of course, a huge thanks to all those in the red shirts. The volunteers who have just done an amazing [00:34:00] right, um, in my work as a therapist, often I have people who come incredibly bound and trapped come with, uh, a range of of issues, much not of their own doing, [00:34:30] but from external. And for many of those, sadly, for some of those, their decision has been to kill themselves. They have been our brothers and sisters. And one of the things I always talk about, uh, in in my work, Uh, and I'm so it came from my Judeo Christian tradition is that truth sets us free. And in this room and in the many rooms, truth [00:35:00] has been spoken. And that has been spoken because that it is our lives. It is our stories. It is our experience. And it is our spirit. Whatever we have done, whatever we choose to do, However, we when we claim who we are, when we become grounded in that knowledge that we [00:35:30] are important and when we claim that power, then it can never be denied us. And so, in closing, I'm going to claim from another Judao Christian and an adaption from the Prophet Micah. May we continue to act justly with boldness and passion. May we love tenderly whoever we choose and are compelled to love [00:36:00] And may it be our our friends, our lovers and may we walk humbly in this earth and in this land and may we walk humbly with whether it is our god or spirit or whatever sustains us. The spirit goes on. It cannot be stopped. Thank you. [00:36:30] I now ask Kevin to come and to close. Yeah, yeah, right. [00:37:00] I you Yeah, [00:37:30] yeah. Mhm. Before I close our session, I'm going to practise something with you. First of all, at the end of, uh, this [00:38:00] that, uh I'm going to say I'm going to end with the words and I'm gonna go and you're gonna go. And what that is saying is essentially let us all be one and let it be done. So I'm going to, uh, use the words of our conference, and I'll translate in Kevin's translation. It [00:38:30] might be different by somebody else. What those words are saying Listening to the song of the bell bird 2223. Yeah, weave it, weave it. We weave it on high, [00:39:00] weave it on low, weave it inside, weave it outside, weave it to the fabric of humankind so that it may be heard in light and in darkness. Two year it [00:39:30] Weave it to this person that comes from the Great Hawaii, The long Hawaii, the legendary Hawaii, the where our spirits meet. [00:40:00] So that I may say it is dawn. It is dawn. It is a new awakening. Well, [00:40:30] the pot luck dinner is over. And And can you just please take your dishes with your home? I? I know some of you haven't labelled them and I'm going home. I've got my ginger nuts. Thank you. Go well.

IRN: 316
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_closing_comments.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004203
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089497
TITLE: Closing comments - AsiaPacific Outgames
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Barry Taylor; Boris Dittrich; Chanel Hati; Eileen Brown; Kay Jones; Rosslyn Noonan; Ruth Busch; Satya Rai Nagpaul
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Barry Taylor; Boris Dittrich; Chanel Hati; Eileen Brown; Human Rights Commission; Jack Byrne; John Fisher; Kay Jones; Lesbian Elders Village; Out at Work Network; Rosslyn Noonan; Ruth Busch; Satya Rai Nagpaul; Wellington Town Hall; Yogyakarta Principles (2006); bisexual; human rights; queer; transgender
DATE: 18 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Closing comments from the Human Rights conference (includes comments from the keynote speakers).
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'd like to now introduce. We're going to hear our three commentators, and the first of them is Boris Dietrich. And again, you will have met him over the last, um, 2. 5 days. Uh, he's another lawyer. I sometimes say, you know, the law is important, but it's not enough in human rights. But we certainly need the lawyers who forged, uh so much in so many places. Um, and was a district court judge in the Netherlands. He was elected a member of parliament for the, uh, Social Liberal [00:00:30] Party, and, um, and became a leader of the party, which he served a role. He served until 2006, but also he was one of the first openly gay members of Parliament. He sponsored the bill on the opening of civil marriage, the same sex couples and the bill on adoption by gay couples. And both laws came into effect in 2000, and one I wonder why we're still having difficulty with adoption here in New Zealand. It's really no excuse. And he was awarded rewarded [00:01:00] with the gay newspaper award in 2004, as the most influential Dutch gay man none of which stopped him being knighted in recognition of his public service in 2006. So, Boris, it's my great pleasure to introduce you and to give you the platform. OK, thank you very much. It's It's so difficult after John's speech to come [00:01:30] back to the conference and reading my notes in my notebook because I was asked to give my impressions on how I thought the conference went and what the problems are that lay ahead of us. And John finished on such a wonderful note that I feel that it's difficult to really go back to the last couple of days and highlight some of the things that I think we still need to talk about, and we still need to explore [00:02:00] a little bit further. But let me start out by saying that I think this conference was organised extremely well. I've been in my life. I've been to many, many conferences, but this conference really beats it all. And Barry, you're standing now way in the back. You did a marvellous job, but not only you. There is, of course also a whole group of nameless people who haven't been here [00:02:30] on stage, but who took care of us who took care of the the sessions starting on time, ending on time, taking us to lunch, cleaning up the things that we are strong. And it proved to be the case because of the wonderful outcome. And hopefully next month or at the end of April, when the Supreme Court will render its decision, let's hope it will be the same decision. But at least the groups proved to [00:03:00] work together and to forget their internal differences and to join forces. And I think that is also something very important. And I will come back to that, Um because, um, yesterday we had a meeting and Susan Hawthorn was the speaker. I was chairing that, and, uh, I was listening to her, and she also said something I thought was very true. And she said, um, we have all these pillars in the LGBTI [00:03:30] community. Uh, but we should take care that each pillar has enough space to share its stories, to grow, to develop and to to unite with the people in that pillar. And she was talking about the lesbians DL from the LGBTI. And she said, actually, there haven't been any lesbian campaigns in recent years and [00:04:00] in her opinion, is a good thing to have. But, she said, I don't want to feel pressure from the other pillars from the other groups because we should be able to develop ourselves and to have enough space without being criticised by others. And of course, this also goes for other pillars for instance, the trans groups. So for us, it should be a challenge to respect each other's [00:04:30] space, to allow each other to grow. But to always keep in mind this common goal of we together want to move forward and to achieve something because we are all here, actually, for the important vision that human rights are universal are for everybody. But unfortunately in daily life, it appears to be that they are not really for the LGBTI community, always in the extent that they should be. So [00:05:00] we should really keep in mind that we should work together. Um, this common denominator is very important. Yesterday we had a session about spirituality, and we started with a meditation which was wonderful, actually, because there is so much information during such a conference that sometimes your head just goes crazy. So it was wonderful to [00:05:30] sit in a circle, to close your eyes and to breathe deeply and to really go back to your inner self. And the person who led the group said, I would love to talk about Queer Union and for me that was also something very important to realise that we all have our differences and we all have our own narrative. But still, we are here for this queer union. We are here to to be together and [00:06:00] to be forced together to improve the world, not only for us and our brothers and sisters, but also for future generations. Now some of the challenges that need to be mentioned is our, for instance, the funding issue, because it's very painful to see how some groups are able to attend conferences or some individuals and others are not. So. Funding [00:06:30] is going to be an important issue also for future conferences, and in that respect, it's quite painful to hear that the New Zealand government has cut down on funding because from this wonderful conference we can take so much with us also for future meetings and gatherings. But if people are not able to come and join and share their experiences. That is very problematic. So [00:07:00] that is something we should find a strategy for how to address that problem. To be effective on the United Nations level is another thing that puzzles me a little bit. John Fisher told about the Yogyakarta principles and about the joint statement and about the side event in December where Secretary General Ban Ki moon spoke those wonderful [00:07:30] words which are really inspiring. But to be effective on UN level, we here should realise that we actually communicate there with diplomats who never speak about sexuality or homosexuality and don't know the acronym LGBTI. They don't know what it stands for, let alone When I was listening to Felicia Brown Acton when she said The LGBTI [00:08:00] label doesn't fit us in the Pacific, I completely understand that. And I thought it was a very important message. Um, and I really think it's a challenge for all of us to find new language, new narratives so that everybody will feel included and that what we talk about is relevant also for the people on the Pacific Islands. Having said that, I see [00:08:30] the challenge in going to the UN in Geneva or the UN in New York and talking to people who do not know what homosexuality is and mix it up with paedophilia, for instance, and sometimes they just pretend they don't know that. But so then, in that context, it's very difficult to talk about all the denominations. So we should find language that is persuasive for other groups and [00:09:00] not belonging to us, not belonging to our family in order to persuade them to be on our side. And we should find that language while recognising how important it is to feel that the words we use reflect on our situation. So that's really a very big challenge. And the conference here really made me think about that. And I hope that in the future we will find a way to address that issue. [00:09:30] Um, we are here together, um, because we all know what we want and what we talk about, Um, what hasn't been stressed yet? And I find a very important and I heard that in the session about Article 3 77 is that we should also reach out to groups beyond our spectrum, and examples could be the trade unions or liberal religious groups, other [00:10:00] groups that are not really part of our community. But we need them to work together with them because we need allies to have a majority behind the ideals we want to achieve. So I think also for future gatherings, it might be interesting to see how we can include those other groups into a conference like this and let them let them give the opportunity to [00:10:30] listen to the wealth of, um, our stories and of what we have to say, because they can learn so much from us. So it would be wonderful if they could be here next time and you're here. OK, great. I wish I would have heard more from you here on stage, for instance. But it's wonderful that you're here. I'm really glad for that. [00:11:00] There is one issue that really needs to be talked about, and that's the influence, the negative influence of religion. We were supposed to have a session this morning about the influence of religion. Unfortunately, that didn't happen. But throughout the 2. 5 days, I've heard a lot about the negative aspects of religion. For instance, [00:11:30] in the Pacific with its own culture that actually, when the Christian churches became very vocal and influential, it really changed the way people look at our lives. There. In the film clip, Grey Poor showed we saw Fundamentalists Indonesia surrounding the hotel where LGBTI groups were [00:12:00] gathering in order to talk about our issues. And so we also saw the aggressiveness of fundamentalist groups. What we see in other parts of the world in Uganda, for instance, is American conservative ministers going into the country teaching courses about the danger of gay life, the dangers, the danger that homosexuals [00:12:30] are taking over our society and people are unfortunately receptive to that. The last example in that respect I can give is that this American minister called Scott Lively came to Moldova. Only a few weeks ago, there was a wonderful conference organised by the Netherlands, the Dutch LGBT Group and LGA Europe. It was a wonderful conference, a conclusion of five years project [00:13:00] with groups from the whole region, and we were there for about four days and having interesting discussions, we were able to have meetings with members of the government of the parliament there, and after the conference was over religious groups in Moldova invited Scott Lively to come to that country, and it was one week after our conference was over and he [00:13:30] spoke there and he was saying, You should be very careful about the gays because the gays have a secret agenda and before you know it, they are recruiting Children at school and they are introducing same sex marriage bills and things like that. And unfortunately, unfortunately, while we were having this wonderful conference and we were engaging government officials of Moldova, he reached out to members of Parliament [00:14:00] there, and they all of a sudden started to become very hesitant about the anti discrimination bill, which was tabled in Parliament, and the discussions were supposed to take place in April. Uh, one of the non grounds for nondiscrimination in the anti discrimination bill is sexual orientation. And, um, many of those members of Parliament became afraid and he said, Well, if we are supporting that, then maybe they [00:14:30] will introduce same sex marriage or our Children this or that. So now there is a new situation, a negative situation in Moldova simply because the religious groups are are also organised, Um, and that now I come to my last point. Um, when Grace was speaking grace poor this morning, she also talked about the use of social media, and I think it's a wonderful challenge for us, you know, to [00:15:00] use Facebook, Twitter and all the other Internet possibilities. But Grace said a thing, which is really true, and that is that the enemy is also using those same tools. And we've seen that in Moldova that the religious groups immediately shared the information from our conference amongst each other. We are able to get him out to the country and immediately had an action plan. We know that in the United States, in Arizona, there was [00:15:30] a meeting where religious groups invited 40 missions to the UN in New York, 44 0 to come to Arizona to a big conference organised by family groups, as it's called. And there they were, talking about the dangers of the Yogyakarta principles, the danger of joint statements, and they were talking about our agenda where John Fisher so eloquently [00:16:00] talked about. They know that, too, and they are strategizing how to counter what we want to achieve. So I would like to end. Uh, unfortunately, it's not a very positive note, but I would like to end by asking you to be alert to that. And maybe when we organise new conferences that we should really try to devote time, how to strategize in order to be very effective [00:16:30] in the future. Because it's so wonderful to be here together, to feel the energy and to see that what we are striving for is right and just and it would be awful if the enemy would be so well organised that they can have a detrimental effect on what we want to achieve. So we should be strong and united. But don't lose our own identity and our own cultural heritage. Thank you very much. And it was [00:17:00] really a pleasure for me to be in your midst. Thank you. Thank you very much for that, Boris. And I think we certainly need to be remembered about what we face in order to get to the next stage. And, um, but I just want to acknowledge that with you in New York and John in Geneva, we've got powerful links and [00:17:30] really an incredible source of support and also information, because once again, it's almost like a circle. We need things happening internationally, but unless we're doing things on the ground in our own communities, um, in our own neighbourhoods and with our own governments, nothing will change internationally. But what happens internationally also puts a little added bit of pressure. And in fact, I had an idea when you were talking that perhaps you could persuade [00:18:00] the, um Netherlands government to challenge the New Zealand government to match it dollar for dollar on its human rights spending. Anyway, So we've got two more great discussants to go. And the first of these is Satya Rag who founded and continues to facilitate an Indian Trans network called Sam. Um, in addition to creating [00:18:30] a safe space for trans people, their families and friends, Samura builds bridges with the medical and legal fraternities in India. Very much evidence of that reaching out to other communities. Well, actually, I had prepared a little speech initially and I'm almost beginning to change it now after hearing everything that has gone before me, and [00:19:00] I wanted to acknowledge the entire experience that I've had in the last more than three days now, which is an absolute contrast to what one experiences daily back home, where one's sense of trans and one's sense of queerness is something that you can't live with on a daily basis. But I guess it begins with the with the idea of visibility. And I really felt [00:19:30] that I was visible in these last three days, and I felt that I was amongst those who know me who understand me who can see where I'm coming from and who are able to understand the language and the words that I'm using. Actually, the first two days was really I was at another. [00:20:00] At another level, I didn't think that I was attending something which was real and, uh and then something happened on the third day, and in a sense, the bubble broke a little. And it made me sort of start thinking about what probably Jamison Green was writing in his book about becoming a visible man and, uh, at a at a health panel that Jack was facilitating. [00:20:30] We walked out of that and somebody came up to me and said, uh, I, I thought you were only a trans activist. And then it started. I started thinking about it, and I was wondering Why is it that this person felt this way and very quickly she could do the processing? And she said, But it's really interesting because you know somebody who [00:21:00] is, uh, somebody after whom. If you look at that person, you can't tell and when you get to know it kind of challenges us in a certain way. Uh, and I was just beginning to think if this is somebody who has spent so many years within the community and in activism and in academia could go through this experience of reading me in [00:21:30] a certain way, I was just wondering that Am I going back to the experience of what is our daily experience back home? And how much would it really take to shift some very ingrained ideas about who we are and how we should be, whether there is an image of a trans woman and an expectation out of that, whether there is an image of a trans man and there is an expectation [00:22:00] out of that, and I went back to feeling a little invisible, I felt invisible, too. Then he comes. I'm a transgender in Hong Kong. I love both women and trans men what [00:22:30] I and that is not clear. And I, um II a are married and have a beautiful 60 year old son. I I'm on the group and I know I'm [00:23:00] a man, and I'm a man. I love this so much. Ok, hi. Yeah, I and grand um And I want to, uh, my partner. [00:23:30] So friends and brothers and sisters in arms We are standing amongst you and we want all of you who are in support of us to stand with us. [00:24:00] Thank you, everybody. Thank you. And all of us from the F two M Asia delegate here. Delegation here would like to thank Jack burn for this because our visibility has been possible because of him. A big thank you to Jack. Thank you. Our last discussant [00:24:30] is is the wonderful Chanel, who is an outreach worker with the New Zealand prostitutes collective. Thank you, my friend. Um God, how do you top that? Um, first of all, um OK, first of all, um, [00:25:00] being, um, an indigenous person of this land, Um, I must follow, um, protocol. And, um, the first protocol is that you must always acknowledge, um, give the power. Um, give the acknowledgement to the high power to the Lord because he is the person that gives us life and energy and love. [00:25:30] The second acknowledgement goes to the which is the house that hosts you because it is the house that protects you from rain and went, It's the house that feeds you. And it's also the house that keeps you together. And the third acknowledgement, [00:26:00] of course, goes to everybody who's made who have made things possible. Our visitors, um, our organise the organisers, um, like for the HR C Who? Um, Jack Byrne? Um um uh, the people, the people that fed us um, Kayla. Thanks. Kayla. She's not here. Um, but [00:26:30] she she she and she did such a wonderful job. And, um uh, we need to think, Yeah, it's it's all those little people all the people in the background that, um, make the magic happen and and it's people like us are the ones that just need to sit back and enjoy at it. And I would just like to say, um um [00:27:00] to to send out a big, um, acknowledgement to to to our our visitors, our visitors that have that came from from around the world. And, uh, I would like to say that, um, you know, I, I could say, like, from the Pacific. But, um, you know, it's I don't wanna say that. I want to say, um, thank you, too. Starting from the top from [00:27:30] the Rock of Polynesia. Uh, Samoa, Tonga, Fiji, Melania. Uh, and if I forget anybody, I apologise. And we move across the ditch to Australia and from Australia, We moved to the east to Thailand, uh, to Indonesia, uh, to India, To China, Korea, Japan, Um, [00:28:00] across to Europe, to the Netherlands, To Germany, uh, to England, Uh, America, Africa, Uh, and wherever else. If I like I said if I've forgotten forgive me, but that's, um a big, um Uh, yes, we had, um II. I, uh Excuse me. I have never seen so many trans people in one room [00:28:30] myself and especially from a different parts of the world. And it's, um it was really interesting. Um, the workshop with the, um the that I went to was absolutely, absolutely wonderful. They, uh they seem to be very, um they they they, um they're valued and they and they go out and they and they they they they [00:29:00] make it their world and and, um, they seem very, very, very, very happy. And they sort of like to me, they they work hard and they give to the they give to their people and their people love them. And that's, um, to me, that's absolutely wonderful. And I was quite touched by by the, um, by those girls and, um uh, meeting, um, the girls from Asia from the Philippines, from India. It was just [00:29:30] a wonderful experience. I. I work as a liaison for the transgender community that work in the sex industry. You know, the sex industry is there are a lot of, um, trans girls that work in the industry, and, um, you know, it's there's no shame in that. It's just that it's just the way it is. Um, not only in New Zealand, but around the whole world. And, um um, there are still some issues [00:30:00] around that that need to be but need to be talked about. And, uh, we in New Zealand are here, uh, for those girls, and to show our, um, unwavering support for them. Uh uh, also, um, as, um as, um, the tradition of, um, our people, [00:30:30] Um when we end a a talk, we must always end with with a or a song. And, um, the song that I've chosen is a song. It's actually like a New Zealand anthem. It's not the New Zealand anthem, but it's like the New Zealand anthem. And I think it's quite appropriate for our visitors. And it's called, Um, now is the hour. And I think most New Zealand people would know the English version. And, um, [00:31:00] there is is a Maori version. And, um, the Maori version is very poetic and and in the sense that it says as I lay here in the moonlight, I'm dreaming about you because you're going away. But while you're away, please remember me. So when you return, I will be waiting, weeping, and I'd like to ask, um, some of the Maori girls [00:31:30] um Elizabeth Um um OK, so this is this is we're gonna sing the Maori version first, and then we're going to sing the English. If you know the English, you can sit there and you can sing it as well. There's no shame, right? No, no. Take the OK. Cool. A church [00:32:00] Um oh, yeah. Mhm. Uh, yeah. And quick. Yeah, Yeah. Come. [00:32:30] OK, OK. Did it? Yeah. No. To see th easy to say [00:33:00] goodbye. Be said, um I see. Mhm. Oh, please. We? Yeah. [00:33:30] Where need a you me away? Yeah, when need a you know, 10. [00:34:00] And just just before I give the rest of you a chance to have some final words on your behalf, I'd like to give the people who have contributed to this wonderful session [00:34:30] a small token of our in New Zealand to take away with them. So good, John. And [00:35:00] actually, I might just stand here. It's probably easier. Um, as a New Zealander working internationally, One of the things that I most missed was the dimension that Maori have added to the way we do things and welcoming and saying goodbye. And, um, late last year, there was a regional Asia Pacific, uh, [00:35:30] United Nations workshop in Auckland on the rights of indigenous peoples. And after it was completed, I was asking the UN people who participated, um, you know what? They how they'd found it. And they said we've never been to a UN meeting like it. We've never been to a UN meeting where there were so many songs sung and stories told, and [00:36:00] I know and they've told lots of people that back in Geneva. So it is something that thank you, Chantelle, for bringing us back, um, to the music and the emotion, um, of this ending of this wonderful conference. But just before I hand over to Barry, uh, for the I'd just like to give other people a chance to say to have a few make a few last comments, I [00:36:30] Oh, there are microphones. So which Yeah, I'd I'd ask everyone to use because for those of us who are getting on, uh um Kay Jones here and I just wanted to firstly thank our many transgender and intersex people for their visibility and for sharing their stories with us because I've really appreciated that because so often the tea is invisible. And [00:37:00] for our Pacifica people, um, I'd also like to share one little thing as a bisexual woman. I was really looking forward to the presentation on the invisible bee, um, by the sisters from the Philippines. And unfortunately, that workshop disappeared. So the workshop on invisible bees became totally invisible. And so I'm just standing here sort of saying, yes, we're here in the alphabet. And maybe next time [00:37:30] we could be there more on the programme just down immediately in front of the previous speaker. The human rights around, um, the Internet and discrimination [00:38:00] in in, um, Twitter and Facebook And having suffered that little, um, in the last little while, I wonder what your comments would be about how we could improve that. Actually, that's a very pertinent question. And I, I think the thing about human rights is they don't just happen. They happen everywhere or they don't or they can be abused everywhere. And, um, last year the Human Rights Commission started has started to do some work on, um, [00:38:30] Internet, human rights and responsibilities. Although I'm I'm told that the Internet community doesn't like the addition of that word responsibilities, but nonetheless, And if you, um and and some of that our initial thinking around that is reflected in, uh, the the the 2010 Human rights in New Zealand 2010. The the review of the Comprehensive Review of Human Rights that we published on International Human Rights Day, Uh, last year and which is on our website. [00:39:00] So the the chapter on freedom of expression and belief And yes, Jack has some 00, in your packs, you've got the summary. But actually the issues are teased out, obviously, in a lot more detail in the full chapter on the website. So there's some we we're starting to do some thinking we've started to engage with the Internet community, Um, and with people, um, you know who have an active interest in the issues. And we'd very much like, you know, any, uh, comments [00:39:30] and feedback and engagement on those issues. But it's certainly something, um, that there needs to be a lot of community discussion about, uh because sometimes Internet rights are rep presented as only in relation to freedom of expression. And the question is, you know, how do the protections that are also required? How do those, um, how are they? Can they be reflected in the Internet? Thank you. [00:40:00] I'm Eileen Brown from the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions. I'm with the Art at Work Network and just Boris. We were ahead of you because I just want all the out at work people. The union members to put up their hands in this audience. So, uh, so we are We are We are really? Well, we are human rights union rights. A queer rights. Um, you know, we are proud and out in the union, and we have loved being here. We've had a fabulous meeting this morning of our own, [00:40:30] and we passed some resolutions about about human rights in the Pacific and our absolute commitment And we, our colleague from Fiji, especially about the need to be very aware of the human rights abuses, including trade union abuses towards trade unionists in Fiji. Um, and last or second, lastly, um, we've got a a leaflet, so I'm going to give these out to anybody who wants one [00:41:00] about out and proud in the workplace. And the other thing that we need to do is about the Yogyakarta principles. We passed a resolution to go to our own trade union organisation, the Council of Trade Unions in New Zealand. But I think internationally too, because, um, though we think unions as trade union, we think of unions as, uh, human rights defenders. We know there's work to do there too. Thank you. Thanks. [00:41:30] Yeah, I am looking over the side, but I'm not seeing many hands on that side. I'm Ruth Bush. I'm with a group called Lesbian Elders Village. I want to stress that there is no even analysis of the needs of older LGBT citizens of this country that the yoga Carter principles stand for equal access to housing [00:42:00] the best possible medical care. And yet all of the reports recently done on ageing in New Zealand haven't omitted even any reference to the LGBTI communities. And I would ask you, Roz, as a grey haired woman, just like I am, And in fact, I'd ask every grey haired person in this room to stand up. Where is it that there is? Where, when will [00:42:30] there be, at least from the Human Rights Commission? If not, in fact, from our government? Any concern? We came out of the closet in the seventies eighties and nineties, and we don't expect to be driven back into that closet in our seventies. It's time for aged dykes, gay men, bisexuals, transgendered intersex people [00:43:00] to stand together. Don't make us go back into the closet in our old age, and I think that that powerful challenge and the response to it is probably absolutely [00:43:30] the right point for me to hand back to Barry. Um, thank you very much. Uh, and just to please accept that just a little, uh, no for, uh, for your work. Um, I also just meant to say before one of the things that I've had [00:44:00] several comments and I've passed on individually, but, uh, the the power of having the NAN HR IS here and I just want to acknowledge the tremendous work of the New Zealand Commission in getting those people here it has been commented on is that some have been to many of the other art games and other human rights. It's the first time they've seen people like that. So Kia for that, thank you very much.

IRN: 2067
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_cindy_lewis_2.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004149
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089443
TITLE: Cindy Lewis (2)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Cindy Lewis
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Cindy Lewis; Gisborne; human rights; transgender
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Cindy Lewis from New Zealand talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So, Cindy, here we are on the out. Games closing. How's the week been for you? Excellent. I've thoroughly enjoyed it. It's been worthwhile making the effort to come down here. And it's been overwhelming a number that are here and the friends we have made from other parts of the Pacific. Have you been down here all week? Yes. I arrived here on Friday night, and I'm heading off back to Hamilton tomorrow morning. So, what have been the highlights [00:00:30] for you? Well, the the biggest highlight for me was the, um, human rights on the Tuesday, um, when we had over 100 transgender people there and we mixed up and had a good time, That was one of the main thing, but, uh, yes, I think the whole the whole week was good. Have you been out to any cultural events or some of the, um, exhibitions around town I've seen? Well, I've seen the [00:01:00] assume Nothing exhibition. Uh, I saw that in the movie. Um, need no need to go to that. Um, I've got the video now so I can watch it when I go home. Did you go to the opening of that exhibition? Yes, I in Hamilton. Uh, the Waikato Museum made told us we had to go and make a digital story of my our transition. There were two of us, and, uh, I've just donated the, uh I showed the story on, um, [00:01:30] Thursday afternoon here, and I donated the, um, story and the story board that I made up to the, um, to the archives. And were you were you, um, involved with the opening ceremony for the art games? Yes. I was here on Saturday, and that was great, too. How was that? How was that to be involved with, uh, 1500 other gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual people? It's marvellous. You know, it's great to be able to [00:02:00] come out and enjoy oneself without being, um, you know, tied up, told Well, then being enjoy enjoying meeting the others as well, you know, from all over the Pacific Rim, you know, and I met up with quite a few Indians and made great friends, and we'll be going when I get home, we'll be adding them to the old Facebook page. What about the parties? Have you been to any [00:02:30] of the parties? I'm going to the last one tonight, and, um, I went last night to me. Um, I didn't stay too long, I. I was getting tired and been a hard week. So how have the parties been? Have they been well attended? Yes, they have. Um Well, um, I think I was at the And what? I'll be going to the Revolution tonight. Um, [00:03:00] I hope I don't sleep in for the bus in the morning. So what do you think the best part of this whole week has been about? Well, I think it's the getting together of, of all the people of of the the different diversity and, um, being able to speak out of their problems. And we got to go back knowing what we can do to try and help others to get their countries [00:03:30] to, you know, toe the line, as it were with discrimination and violence. Some of those countries, some of the rights violations were pretty horrific. Aren't they very especially hearing the story of the young Nepalese boy who got fired from the army. It was an amazing story. I haven't heard that one. What was that about? He was He's only a little short fellow. He got, uh [00:04:00] he was in the Nepalese army and they threw him out. And I from what I could gather, got very limited English. And he was thrown in jail because of his transition from female to male. Do you know how long he was in jail for? Not sure. At the, um, who we had in at the ST Andrews Church hall. Um, he broke down [00:04:30] when he was telling us the story. Very moving. There you go.

IRN: 338
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_cindy_lewis_1.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004148
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089442
TITLE: Cindy Lewis (1)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Cindy Lewis
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Cindy Lewis; Gisborne; human rights; transgender
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Cindy Lewis from New Zealand talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, I'm Cindy Lewis, and I come from Hamilton. And, um, I was at a in Wellington with the Human Rights Commission, and they asked for people to come down, and I put my name in, And, um, that's how I got involved Now. You were doing a session yesterday. Can you tell me about that? Yeah, well, I put in a submission to show my digital story that was made in association with the, um, assume nothing exhibition that was [00:00:30] held in Hamilton in the latter part of 19 09. And, um, we went to the University of Waikato, and the students made the story for us. Can you tell me a wee bit about that story? It was just a story about my life. Um, when I transitioned from male to female and, um and just how I've been having a lot of fun since doing that story. Was that the first kind [00:01:00] of public outing that you you had done? No, not really. I've done quite. I go, I'm full time out, and I go, I help on the balloons over Waikato as a crew and I go down the Victoria Street all dressed up in the parade. They have, uh I'm doing that next next week or a week after What was what was doing that digital story like? It was amazing. I didn't know what [00:01:30] a digital story was all about. And, um, we were shown some digital stories, and we were amazed at the quality that they gave and, um, going to the university and was quite an honour. And, um, to have two students with us. Uh, they never knew anything about transgender. And, um, it was an eye opener for them, But we became good friends and, uh, another student that [00:02:00] was with another friend of mine. She ended up making a, uh, two short, uh, 32nd ads for her master's degree. Last year. What was the most challenging thing about doing those digital stories? Well, nothing really challenging. It was just just, uh uh, We just, uh, had to, um, write our own script. And in three minutes, like a three minute long And, uh, yeah, [00:02:30] that's about it. Uh, and then just going to the university. I guess what I was thinking was because they're actually quite personal digital stories, aren't they to to actually kind of put yourself out there for anyone to see. How? How did you find that? I don't mind. Um I'm quite happy to tell my story to anyone that wants to listen. Um, there's so much, um uh, violence and that towards some of our girls that the more people that know our story, that's the better [00:03:00] for everyone. So to the conference, How did you find, uh, in the session yesterday Where, uh, you were presenting? How was that for you? Um, I get nervous when I get up in front of a lot of crowd, but, um, I I enjoyed it. Um, it's always a privilege to be able to show that story and and, um, see what can be done in the digital field. [00:03:30] And what kind of feedback did you get? Plenty. Plenty. And it was all positive. Um, we came up and said, What a great story. And evenly. It's helped a lot of people. Um, it has been shown. I've even shown it to the, uh, DO in Hamilton. And we have a meeting with them. That's the police. And, um, we've shown it there, and I showed it at the, uh, diverse exit. Um, conference in [00:04:00] last year. Uh, it has been shown around the country. Did you attend the transgender Hui, which was just before the conference? Yes, I did. And what an amazing event. There are over 100 transgender people there the first time I've ever seen so many. And of course, they were all from all over all parts of the world. What was the the? The thing that made the biggest impact on you and just seeing the the crowd and the [00:04:30] and the, um, socialising with them. Um, I I've made a lot of friends, especially here from India. Um, we quite exchange cards, and, uh, most probably will be in contact with them later on. What do you think the best part about these type of conferences is it's a great place to come and share your knowledge and possibly help others that want to go the same direction. [00:05:00] Um, it's not an easy road to go through. Um, uh, it's a lot of There's a lot of finance involved. We don't get any government funding. Um, so gets quite expensive. Especially if people want to have the operation. It means an overseas trip for a start. What are some of the other trends issues that are currently in New Zealand. A lot of there is, um, the violence. Um, the law is not quite [00:05:30] up to scratch. Um, to have to We're trying to, uh, get part of the law changed to include gender identity in the Human Rights Act. And, um, there's a few other I just can't think of off the cuff, but, um, yeah, it's happening. And after the, um, human Rights Commission put out the the book to be who I am, a few changes have been made already with the law. [00:06:00] What were those changes? Um, well, they changed the way we can have our birth certificate changed. Um, well, just bit hard to remember now without having to look at all. Well, I have changed my birth certificate, but that was quite expensive. But now you can do it a lot cheaper. So what's it like living in Hamilton? A lot of fun. Um, I've [00:06:30] been accepted. Um, there are a few others in Hamilton, and, um, yeah, uh, I belong to the worker Men's Club, and there's 6000 members there, and I had literally transitioned in there, and, um no problem. There were problems. Of course. The old story is used in the toilet. That is one of the main issues that we have And that after people got to realise that I was [00:07:00] a female now and don't have any more trouble from this conference. What? What will you take away from it? A great sense of, uh um, you know, social, Um, and being able to go and tell others what a great, um life we have with and that we're not alone. Um, there's so many 100 out there. Um and we're just seeing a very [00:07:30] small portion of of those around, and it's not very well. It gives me a great thrill to be able to be here and then go home and tell everyone what it was like. It was great. If somebody is listening to this tape in 30 years time, what would you like to say to them? Keep going and just head up and carry on, OK?

IRN: 337
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_carole_hicks.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004147
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089441
TITLE: Carole Hicks
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Carole Hicks
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Carole Hicks; Wellington Town Hall; human rights
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Carole Hicks from New Zealand talks about volunteering at the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I've been a member of the organising committee for the conference for I don't know, 15 months or 18 months. However long it's been, it seems like forever. And, um, I have done mostly sort of logistical type things. Um, I've proofread some stuff. Um, and I've been with dawn the liaison person for all of the facilities here. What have some of the issues been with the logistics? Well, courtesy of some very, [00:00:30] very cooperative staff here at the, um, um, conference Centre and through multimedia, there have been very few. Let's be their their cooperation, their willingness to fall over themselves, to be helpful, has been absolutely amazing. They've been terrific, because how many delegates are there At the moment? We have a little over 300 delegates registered, Um, and looking at how full the islet has been because it holds 302 people, [00:01:00] we've had pretty much all of them here. Can you describe some of the because we are a day and a half in? Can you describe some of the things that you've encountered so far? Well, what I've not encountered is any of the presentations, which would have been nice, but you know, when you're on the organising committee, you don't get to you don't get to do the good stuff. Um, we've we've had It's been very interesting sitting here outside the theatre. Um, with all the people coming by, um, there's been a lot of opportunity [00:01:30] to interact with various people, um, locals, people from all parts of the world, all parts of our region. Really? And that is always is interesting. Have there been any surprises? Um, I don't think so. Um, a few people who just materialised. And, um, one person came to the United States of America and just assumed they could walk in. And since we were already overbooked, um, that got a bit tricky, but, you [00:02:00] know, one can always stretch a seat here or there. So why did you want to become involved and become quite an integral part of the organising committee? I've got a lot of experience, um, professionally in organising, um, conferences, um, through my earlier work, uh, in the trade union movement. And, um, also through my involvement with the sport of archery. So organising conferences and tournaments [00:02:30] and things is something I have a fair amount of expertise in. And, um, I thought it was more than enough time before I put something back into the lesbian and gay community. What are the keys to a good conference? Thorough organisation Before you start? You, You, you, you I can't emphasise that you have to think about all of the things that could possibly go wrong and then organise to prevent them happening where possible, [00:03:00] but also to know that there are enough people on the ground with enough information to be able to pick up pieces should they drop. So how many volunteers have you got on on every day? Uh, it's a bit of a moveable feast, but, um, we've got somewhere between four and eight around about half a dozen on the whole. And that's just fantastic. These people are here, You know, I don't know whether they've had to take time off work or or whatever, [00:03:30] but, um, they're here. They're willing. Happy to do anything you ask them to do. Their cooperation has been outstanding. Has there been a hardship in getting volunteers? I don't know. You'd have to ask Sarah that. I know she was pushed at one stage and we didn't appear to have very many for the conference. Um, I, I don't know about the sporting ones because I wasn't involved in that for for much of the time. So your role at the moment is what, Director of traffic? Mostly, [00:04:00] um, sitting here outside the islet, um, people keep coming past me. So they want to know, How do I get to such and such a place? What time is the next session starting? Where do I get morning tea? All of those sorts of things just sort of, you know, general information. Can you describe the vibe, the feeling of the conference? That's a bit difficult for me? Because, um, I haven't been to a lesbian and gay et cetera. Type conference, [00:04:30] um, of any size before, um, back in the 19 eighties and nineties, um, through glee, gays and lesbians everywhere in education, which we started here in Wellington. And we ran, um, a couple of national conferences and we ran an international conference. Um, but it was much smaller. So it's a bit too hard to relate in terms of, um, in terms of atmosphere. But certainly, you know, you just see two guys walking past [00:05:00] now they're smiling. Everybody seems to be, seems to be quite comfortable with what's going on. And we had very good feedback about yesterday's, um, sessions. Um, people are saying how much they're enjoying it, and in fact, the duty manager here today, um, he had to go off site and and in general terms, I was just saying, You know, thanks very much again for all the cooperation and he said, This is the most fantastic conference we've had here He said, I am really enjoying [00:05:30] this conference and I hope you can do another one next year. Well, he's stiff out of luck on that part. But, you know, for the duty manager of a conference centre to say how much they're enjoying this, I think is is a great credit to all of the people who are here. All of the delegates, the presenters, everybody, certainly I've found that there seems to be a lot of very, um, empowering energy. You know, a lot of positive energy and certainly the people I've talked to um, just the fact of [00:06:00] being in amongst 300 really positive forward thinking people is is is something Yes. I mean, just looking at the abstracts of some of these, um, some of these presentations. They are outstanding. They are of such a high level, and yet they are inclusive. You know, we've got all sorts of people here, um, going through the full range of, um, highly, highly technical, legal stuff. Um, through to Well, if [00:06:30] you're in a wheelchair, you have these sorts of problems, but here are ways we can get around them, you know? So we've got such an amazing range. Um, of of very technical stuff in the various aspects. Um, we've got a lot of, um, practical stuff for people who are in the the learning sector. The education sector. We've got, um, an interesting section on on work on and how to protect yourself, I guess, um, while [00:07:00] at work. And certainly if you're out at work, Um, it was amazing to have in in that stream to have a presentation by some lesbians from the police, you know, And to have these lesbians here participating fully wearing their police uniform is absolutely fabulous When you think of how far we've come in 25 years, I was just reflecting on that last night. I thought Gosh, this is It's It's incredible. Oh, it is. And, um, whilst it [00:07:30] hasn't been such a problem, well, it hasn't been such a legal problem. Um, for for lesbians as it has been for gay guys, obviously, thanks to Queen Victoria, we were never illegal. Bless her cotton socks. Um, but yeah, I mean, just having been part of of that, um, campaign so many years ago and just looking where we are now, it's absolutely mind blowing. And I do a lot of trouble because of the sports, um, that I'm involved in and [00:08:00] you go out of New Zealand and it's like going into the Dark Ages as a woman, Never mind as a lesbian, Um, it's just and I spend a lot of time in Europe or with a lot of Europeans. Um, and they they just don't behave like we used to. People behaving here, it's just quite remarkable. Do you have examples of that? Oh, I mean, in some respects, something that's quite simple and straightforward that, [00:08:30] um, the international organisation, uh, sporting organisation that I'm relatively senior member of, um I persuaded them five years ago to have all of the Constitution rules in gender inclusive language or if that wasn't possible to at least use. And in the last 18 months they've gone back to using heat in everything but things like that. I mean, it's like that all of the time. And, [00:09:00] um, there is an assumption that you'll do it. The bloke, the bloke's way, the straight in general terms. It's the older white male way. I'm sorry I'm talking to you, but you know how it is. Say that talking to you. But that's how it is. And whilst that's still like that to a degree in this country, nothing like the the extent to which is it is. That's the basis that's all there is. What do you mean, there some other [00:09:30] way, you know, whereas here, whilst we still run into those problems, they're nowhere near as bad. So you mentioned just earlier that the possibility of a conference well, certainly not next year. But do you think there will be, uh, a repeat or another conference like this in New Zealand? That's really hard to, um, to gauge Gareth. Um, we had, [00:10:00] um, a few few a few guys here in Wellington who decided that you know. OK, we would take a turn at running the out games. Um, I can't see us wanting to do that again in another couple of years time. You know, um, there is a limit to how much time people can spend, um, in in, in in that sort of, um, activity. Um, but I think it wouldn't hurt. I mean, this is something that we keep doing in Wellington. [00:10:30] Um, to be perfectly honest, it's about a time Auckland did something, um, with glee. We couldn't get Auckland to do anything. Christchurch did, um, did a conference. Um, but Auckland just they don't seem to be able to organise themselves. So, um, whether they can be persuaded to run a conference, who would know? But I think having started one now, um, I think it would be a pity if we lost the [00:11:00] impetus you just mentioned before about the the time involved in actually organising something like this. Could you just give me some idea as to how much time the organisers have have have committed to the to this conference and the out games? Barry? A large chunk of his life. He has been superb. He's been absolutely brilliant. And the amount of work that man's put into this has been phenomenal. Um, I don't know. I mean, it fluctuates a bit. Um, there's sort of a rush [00:11:30] of activity, and you might spend, um, 45 hours in a week. Um and then nothing much for a little while. The stream convenor probably had a larger, more ongoing, um, exercise. And I think you should be talking to some of the stream convenor because they've had to put together all of the presentations. You know, they once we got the, um, the presentations that accepted, um, they then had to work with the presenters [00:12:00] and sort all that sort of thing out. Find chairperson facilitators. And so they would have They would have probably spent a lot more time over a period of time than I have. Um, Dawn and I, to a large degree, have spent mostly this year, um, doing things in a few hours a week, I suppose, Um, maybe 10 hours a week, sometimes. Maybe less. Now, if somebody in 30 years time is listening back to this, what would you say to them? [00:12:30] I hope it has been useful. Um, I'm not sure that you would have got much history of where we came from to get to this place Now, which in itself is said, um, because some of the younger I don't know about the guys, but certainly some of the younger women coming through have no concept of what it used to be even 20 years ago, let alone 50 years ago, that I can go back to, um [00:13:00] so no hoping that we can have some basis of knowledge of how we've got to where we are, Um, and that if they can look at some of the things that we have done at this conference, um, some of the presentations that have been made, some of the ideas for moving forward that we hope will have been implemented and that they can at least trace that much.

IRN: 336
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_brendan_goudswaard.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004146
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089440
TITLE: Brendan Goudswaard
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Brendan Goudswaard
INTERVIEWER: Jim Whitman
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Brendan Goudswaard; Wellington; Wellington Town Hall; gay; human rights; youth
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Brendan Goudswaard from New Zealand talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: It's really interesting hearing, um uh, people's, uh, covering the youth stream from most of it and hearing people from other parts of the world and their, um, experiences. And, um, yeah, and their experience was youth and and education. And, um, and that sort of thing. Yeah. Do you Do you work with Pacific Island young people? Um, IIII. I [00:00:30] tend to work with youth in general. Uh, so I that does it does include some, uh, uh, Pacific youth as well. Um, yeah. Generally, Yeah. Just, uh, youth in general around the region. Do you Do you work with a particular to do drama, or is it generally it's generally work, uh, with a It's a social and support group for queer teenagers. Um, so you have we run and coordinate, [00:01:00] uh, meetings, Uh, on a weekly basis for you to come along and we have discussions and guest speakers and, uh, topics or activities or, um, whatever that involves. And gay youth at that. Yeah. Yeah. I. I, uh, is all encompassing word. Um, to include all the different, uh, genders and sexualities. We do that. So, yeah. Do [00:01:30] you think that research that suggests that young people get a quite a hard time at schools. I mean, like, 80% or something like that at the time. Could be rough. Is that a Is that an accurate depiction for New Zealand? Do you think that that was Australian research? There was some research done here in New Zealand, and they did. Their findings are very much the same sort of thing. Um, so, you know, I think it is still quite hard for youth. Queer youth [00:02:00] in high schools in New Zealand. Um, I think it's still there is a lot of, uh, homophobia and transphobia, uh, in schools. Um, yes, I think calling physical, physical verbal. Um, yeah, all sorts. All sorts of, um, and as far as the ingenuity can go, yeah. Yeah. So and also neglect, I suppose, on the educational side of things as well, [00:02:30] uh, to educate the youth about, uh, I identity and the diversity and as well, it sounded as if the schools could be pretty cowardly. Um, yeah. And I think a lot of schools, uh, can be quite cowardly and hesitant to, uh, touch on the subjects of homophobia and transphobia. And, um, things like that, uh [00:03:00] must I assume? Because they don't want to upset, um, the other students, the majority of the students, or the majority of the parents who it's a political local political question is work with young people about sexuality or gender going to bring the local press in. Is that one of a range of things? Um, yeah, Possibly. Yeah. Do do you Have you learnt anything personal? [00:03:30] You know something about yourself, or how? How the the the conference affected your own life? Oh, it's really good question. Um, and I think it'll if if it has, it will be more in reflection time of the next few days. And I was reflecting on it all, uh, where things like, click over and click into place. And, um, yes, over the next few days, when I [00:04:00] really sort of see how the conference has affected me personally, um, at this stage, I think it's all too fresh in my head to really sort of, Yeah, is the conference has it led to any sort of early conclusions about what you'd like to do when you get back to work? Conferences are notorious for setting you up to feel terrible when you get back to work? Yeah. Um, no, I think I yeah, definitely sort of pushed me to [00:04:30] try and, um uh, push to get out into high schools more. And because part of what youth work is getting into high schools and, uh, doing talks on sexuality and gender identity. Um, yeah, through the high schools. I, I think you really want to push to try and do more of that through the local high schools. Um, because I feel that it's something that's important that's being missed by a lot of high schools. Do you think what you do? Does it create a bit of a head of steam? [00:05:00] Yeah. And I think it, um, you getting into schools, I think, really does help. And, um, talking to the students, I think you can sit and watch them as they take it all in, and you sort of watch them the the class that you're there, you can watch them realise just what will affect their language and their behaviour can have on other students. Um, it really helps them understand. Um, yeah.

IRN: 335
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_boris_dittrich.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004145
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089439
TITLE: Boris Dittrich
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Boris Dittrich
INTERVIEWER: Jim Whitman
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Boris Dittrich; Netherlands; Wellington Town Hall; Yogyakarta Principles (2006); human rights
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Boris Dittrich from Netherlands talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Boris Dietrich, and I'm the advocacy director of the LGBT Rights Programme at Human Rights Watch. Human Rights Watch. Where is it based? Uh, our headquarters is based in New York because as an independent international organisation, we work with the United Nations, where the headquarters is in New York, Obviously, but we do have offices all around the world. I have heard you speak before. [00:00:30] Um, you mentioned oppression in Africa, for instance, which may well be on the rise. It certainly seems to be so, Um and you mentioned the Yogyakarta principles as well as a almost a new international standard. Could you could you say a little bit more about that? Yes. The Yogyakarta principles have been developed by a group of legal experts [00:01:00] in the Indonesian city of Yogyakarta in the end of 2006. And actually they codified all exist human rights. But they translated it to sexual orientation or gender identity so that it becomes very obvious what the gap is of the LGBT community, their rights in relation to what they actually should have as rights. And so it's a very important instrument. The Yogyakarta principles [00:01:30] to meet with government officials with ministers with members of Parliament. That's my job and to say to them, Listen, there is this community in your country and you have signed up to the international treaty or to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and it says, freedom of association, freedom of expression, the right to privacy, all those kind of rights. And look how the LGBTI community [00:02:00] in your country is being treated. You need to step up. You need to change your laws and policies, and I use the Yogyakarta principles for that I. I went to a workshop with lesbian elders. Um, they took out a list of key Joy Carter principles as 29 in all isn't there. And they were about half a dozen that they felt were particularly important for them. Their plan was to [00:02:30] to use them, um, to reflect back, really to service providers and say, Well, look, you're not providing a service that stands up to these principles. That sounds like a pretty good way to use them on a practical Oh, yes, it depends completely on the context of the country where you work in and where you live in in a country like the Netherlands where I'm from. Most of the Yogyakarta principles are reflected in the national laws and [00:03:00] the Constitution, but there are still some things that need to be amended. For instance, in terms of transgender rights in the Dutch law, it still says that a transgender person wants to have a new identity of the new gender needs to undergo an irreversible operation surgery and that's against the Georgy JAA principles, so even a country like the Netherlands will [00:03:30] need to step up. So in the Netherlands, the LGBTI community focuses only on one or two principles of the Georg Jaar principles. But to give you another example recently was in Cameroon, Africa working there with two LGBT organisations and we used the Yogyakarta principles and our Human Rights Watch report about discrimination in Cameroon. So when we had a meeting with the [00:04:00] prime minister and with the minister of Justice, I showed them the Yogyakarta principles and in that context, uh, the two Cameroonian groups said, actually, all principles from the Yogyakarta principles need to be reflected in laws and policies in Cameroon. I mentioned adoption here in New Zealand. Um I. I spoke to a labour MP they [00:04:30] I mean, I think probably rightly so. I felt that the rights of the child are paramount as they're represented in the law. But certainly adoption by a couple, um, should not be discriminated against on the basis of sexuality or or gender. I know. Exactly. Um, I was a member of Parliament in the Netherlands, and in 1994 I proposed the same sex marriage bill, but also the adoption bill. And of course, you need to think [00:05:00] out of the, um, uh, perspective of the best interest of the child. Of course. Um, I always use the example of a Dutch woman. She was a sex worker. She got pregnant, got a child. She was addicted, and she couldn't take care of the child. So she asked her brother who lived with a man. Uh, please take care of my child. And then, unfortunately, she died. Uh, and the brother and his partner wanted to adopt the child because [00:05:30] they were raising the child already for a few years, and everything was ok in that family. But the Dutch law said no. This is impossible because you are two men. So that case for me was very decisive. And, uh, whenever I told it to my colleagues and to the government and used it in debates, people said, OK, yeah, actually, yeah, why not? So finally, we were able to change the law and same sex couples can [00:06:00] adopt in the Netherlands. And usually that applies only to domestic adoption. Because, um, when you want to adopt a child from India or Colombia or Syriana or other adoptive countries, usually it's the adoption authority in that country who decides who is eligible for adoption? And unfortunately, most of those adoption, uh, national authorities are still discriminating. [00:06:30] And they think two men or two women, um, are not fit enough to be parents of a child of their country. India has a very interesting legal situation at the moment with, I think it's 377. That's a universal statement about rights. It's a wonderful case because in India, homosexual conduct was not criminalised, but then [00:07:00] the Victorian law from the United Kingdom was imposed upon them a few centuries ago, and now, uh, Indian groups LGBT groups, but also other human rights groups, women's rights groups, health care groups. They took the case to court and they said, We want Article 3 70 70 to be read down because it's hurting us and it's counterproductive and it's against our Constitution of inclusion. [00:07:30] And so the Delhi High Court in 2009 ruled that indeed, Article 3 77 needs to be read down and should not be used anymore. There is an appeal launched, and the final decision is expected to come on April 18th of this year 2011 and hopefully also, the Supreme Court will acknowledge the fact that Article 3 77 [00:08:00] is against the Indian Constitution. That would be a wonderful, tremendous breakthrough. Also for other Asian countries, the sense I get is that sensuality, if you like, is the is the dominant theme in the judgement so far. That's correct because the group said, Listen, if two adults love each other and live together and, uh, want to be together, why would that be a crime? What's [00:08:30] what's the reason behind that? And most people do understand that it seems to it'll be interesting to see how it gets translated into other if it's upheld how it gets translated into the area. Other areas of law. Yes. And, uh, today I, uh, um uh attended a presentation by an Indian lawyer. And she said that she hopes that it will be upheld, of course, and that it will be translated [00:09:00] in all kind of areas of civil life. But, uh, that needs to be seen, of course. And a lot of work needs to be done because there is a lot of homophobia in society. Also amongst government officials. We we heard a man from Nepal, um, who lost his job in the armed forces. It's a country that's slowly liberalising. Perhaps, um, a recent transsexual [00:09:30] MP. I think it is, or is Human rights watch watch involved in Nepal? Yes. Sunil Pant, who is the first openly gay member of parliament in Nepal, invited me in 2007 to come to Nepal and talk to politicians, members of Parliament, members of the government, uh, about LGBT rights and specifically about same sex marriage because Sunil knew had read books about me about, [00:10:00] uh the way I, uh, proposed the same sex marriage bill in the Netherlands. And so when I was there, uh, Sunil and I had meetings with all the party leaders and we talked about discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity. And we received, um, quite a warm welcome with several political party leaders, uh, after the visit, and especially after Sun Neil, who was also who was at the time uh, the director [00:10:30] of the Blue Diamond Society. He was not elected as member of Parliament, yet he did a lot of work in order to persuade political parties in their political programme to include um, sexual orientation and non discrimination. And what we see now is that the court in Nepal has decided that marriage, which is not at the moment in Nepal possible for two men or two women, is actually [00:11:00] against the Constitution. And they installed a commission commission that needs to investigate same sex marriage bills from other countries in the world like the Netherlands and the outcome of that commission. And they are advised to Parliament whether to open their civil marriage to same sex couples is also expected, uh, this year. So it might be depending, of course, on the conclusions of the [00:11:30] uh commission that either civil unions, uh, some kind of minimum standard will be installed or it might be that they say no, we should open up our marriage and same sex marriage should be taking place. Transsexual people. Um that tends to cut across the grain of both gender and sexuality, doesn't it? Yes, exactly. It it it. It's extremely difficult for [00:12:00] legal systems to adapt to that with the principles that that your gender is assigned at birth and it's read off your body, so to speak. Um, how how How's that struggle going? Of course, yes. Well, that's really a struggle. I noticed that in the 10 countries, for instance, where same sex marriages take place. Um, there are still a lot of things to, uh, achieve for transgender people [00:12:30] and let alone in those countries And, of course, in other countries as well. So the common denominator, actually, is that, um, in many countries, people do not really understand the concept of transgenderism. Uh, because the first question when a child is born is is it a boy or a girl? And so people have this framework in their head that you are either a boy or a girl, and they don't understand that there are all kinds of other possibilities So [00:13:00] yes, transgender rights is actually something that really needs to be focused upon by, of course, transgender groups, but also by other groups. And in this respect, I would really like to say that the LGBT community should not forget the tea and should also focus on the tea rights. I had that sense around prostitution, um, sex workers, that [00:13:30] the resolve of governments to stick with the liberal regime can falter quite easily. Um, well, what we see is, of course, we are now talking about democracies, and sometimes political parties win the elections, and sometimes they lose. And it is, really it really matters who is governing your country. So when a conservative party or coalition of parties will govern a country, they might repeal [00:14:00] certain laws and certain policies, uh, that others might think are very important. So especially with sex work, that's a very delicate subject. Um, but, um, in the Netherlands, that's where I'm comparing it with we decriminalised sex work. We legalised it because we thought it would be important, first of all to protect the people who do the work, but also in order to make health [00:14:30] care more accessible to them it would be important that it would be taken out of this fear of crime. But of course, we should be very, very focused on criminal elements like forced sex or trafficking or sex with minor things like that. Um, but sometimes, you know, you see that when a new government takes office, then and especially when people who are not really into this subject they might regard [00:15:00] it very primarily, as you know, sex workers immoral. And then it might be that things are being changed again, which might affect the community. So I would hope that a lot of politicians would really look beyond the easy arguments like morals. But look at how is it affecting the people and then stand by the people? [00:15:30] We've got a lot of ground there. That's it's all the public side of sexuality. Um, how do you What would you take away yourself from this conference? Well, for me, it was really a groundbreaking to, um, listen to all these, uh, examples, especially from the Pacific. But also this morning from a black lesbian woman, uh, Aboriginal from Australia. How diverse we are also [00:16:00] as an LGBTI community and how respectful for we should be for cultural sensitivities without, of course, losing track of the human rights aspect. But it's so what I take back from this conference is that we should be proud to belong to this community. We should stick together and help each other and feel solidarity. But we also should leave each other enough space to [00:16:30] develop our own identities and our own emotions around those identities. So that's quite a challenge. But I feel that we are making progress. The wonderful thing is that the conference endorsed a joint statement which will be presented on March 22nd in Geneva at the Human Rights Council. I have been working with the coordination group led by John Fisher to support and to [00:17:00] try to engage a lot of governments to sign on to that statement and it was moving to see that the 300 plus people in the audience applauded this joint statement and said, Yes, we support it and we endorse it and we are calling our governments to do the same. At this point in time, 78 governments signed on the joint statement and it's really groundbreaking and I can use that joint statement in my work at the United Nations in New York for a Human Rights Watch because we hope finally, [00:17:30] to introduce a resolution on sexual orientation and gender identity. And of course, we need a majority of the countries in the world to support that.

IRN: 334
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_bhakti_shah.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004144
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089438
TITLE: Bhakti Shah
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Bhakti Shah
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Bhakti Shah; Nepal; Wellington Town Hall; human rights; transgender
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Bhakti Shah from Nepal talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I am. Uh I'm from Nepal. A new one. I'm Bakti. I'm from Nepal. I came to this conference to learn new things, make new friends and then get the knowledge [00:00:30] back to country. More Blue Diamond Society. I belong to Blue Diamond Society, which is a gay rights organisation in Nepal. Blue Diamond Society Blue Diamond [00:01:00] L Blue Diamond Society was found [00:01:30] in 2001 Blue Diamond Society has been supporting gays, lesbians, bisexual, transgender people from across the country. This is the only organisation have effectively empowered the gays lesbians, bisexual, transgender into sex people now under the umbrella of Blue Diamond Society. There are more than 350,000 LGBT [00:02:00] across Nepal who are in a position to stand for their rights and fight injustices. How are LGBTI people treated in Nepal [00:02:30] Supreme Court Court decision Before 2001 before the Blue Diamond Society, LGBTI faced a lot of discrimination. Even they were called names walking in the streets. But after that, the situation has improved, particularly after 2007, when the Supreme Court decided in favour of LGBTI Nepal. [00:03:00] The situation has improved for better. What happened in 2007. In a petition [00:03:30] filed by Blue Diamond Society, the court ordered the government to recognise third genders as equal citizens of Nepal. The court also ordered to form a seven members committee to draught the same sex marriage bill, which is ongoing now. The court also ordered the government to scrap or amend all the discrimination laws against LGBTI. How did the rest of the population respond to those changes [00:04:00] [00:04:30] counselling? The first reaction from the people was Oh, this decision will will influence more more perversion. But after the follow counselling from Blue Diamond Society, people are taking it positively. [00:05:00] There are more than 350,000 who have gone in contact to Blue Diamond Society across Nepal. There are many more who are closeted and then still yet to reach. Since since 2007 have you seen a change in people's attitudes towards lesbian and gay transgender [00:05:30] intersex people? Big changes before people used to call name, even walking in the streets. Now it's much less and we ourselves also [00:06:00] very proud of who we are and then, like I, I can live and then get around saying I'm a person of third gender to, [00:06:30] for example, born female but grew as man or born male grew as women are called. Third changes [00:07:00] [00:07:30] like men and women live in society. We also want to live, and then that's what our struggle is about. And then we have made some achievements, but we have a long way to go. [00:08:00] Uh, it's, uh, the right to live with our partner of our choice, like the heterosexual couples are are enjoying. So it it's a recognition of our relationship as a marriage and then have a full recognition of family that we we form [00:08:30] coming to this conference. What would you like to take away from from this experience? Yeah, [00:09:00] There are a lot of new things I've been learning meeting new people. I haven't decided what exactly. I will take home back, which I will do end of tomorrow because we are still 1. 5 a day. Where to go? I'm just excited to be here in 30 years time [00:09:30] when somebody hears this recording or they hear it 30 years from now. What would you like to say to them of this? No, [00:10:00] Zealand, [00:10:30] I don't think people would care much after 30 years about our struggle today because even in countries like Nepal, the rights will be insured for everyone, including third genders. But if they are recording in a website and somebody listen, probably they would think, Oh, you know, even people like third gender from Nepal came to New Zealand, attended this conference and they did the hardest struggle for the [00:11:00] for the equality and the environment we have today. Thank you.

IRN: 333
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_barry_taylor.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004143
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089437
TITLE: Barry Taylor
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Barry Taylor
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Barry Taylor; Wellington Town Hall; human rights
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Barry Taylor from New Zealand talks about being the convener of the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm Barry Tanner and I'm the conference convenor. So my job is to oversee the whole conference organising the conference. That's been a few years in the making, hasn't it? Yes, two years since Hamish twisted my arm and I foolishly said yes, but yes, What's that been like? Uh, it's been I describe it as like trying to do a PhD. Sometimes you loved it and other times you've absolutely hated it. But the last two days has just made it everything so worthwhile. But even in doing that, uh, the the [00:00:30] the group that came together from from Wellington people to organise that all the different organisations who have organised the different streams has been a really great experience. There's been, um, people have worked together to bring this to the to what we've had in the last few days, how many people have been on the organising committee? There was a core group of, uh, 12, which we call the oversight group, so that was represented from each stream. But in all, there would have been about 20 [00:01:00] who have contributed to the organising of the the event. And this was all volunteer work. All volunteers, all of us got other jobs. So it was incredible generosity of people and the time. So how much time personally would you have actually spent on this conference? But much of my waking hours sometimes and many of my holidays and weekends have been involved, even if it's not actually doing it's thinking about it and what needs to be done. [00:01:30] Uh, but certainly in the last, uh, five months, it's taken up a lot of my time. What have some of the issues been in in putting together this conference? Uh, well, once again, I think, Well, it was just trying to get the the the range of networks outside New Zealand. So we and that's been a discussion here is that there has been no umbrella organisation, so it's very hard to try and get the word out to, particularly around Asia and that, uh, trying to identify keynote speakers that [00:02:00] were representative. So it wasn't just all sort of males from New Zealand sort of thing. Uh, that was a challenge, the other one, of course, although we've been greatly, uh, rewarded in terms of funding, was actually getting funding to enable the people from, uh, Asian Pacific to be here. So it was truly a representative conference. What are the keys to a successful conference? Uh, I think it's about creating the space where [00:02:30] people, uh uh, stories or their work is heard so that I think it has been about, uh, clear ideas about what you want out of it and conveying that to the people. Uh, it's about communicating and and and making people feel welcomed. Uh, and that's what we've tried to do in our hospitality. Uh, and in the pre lead up to the conference, uh, but and and I think that what [00:03:00] people is our responsiveness. So we try and respond as soon as possible to queries so people feel that they're being valued and that what they will be doing at the conference is valuable. Can you talk about the last two days? So we're two days into the conference now. How have they been? They've just been mind blowing. Look, I've organised lots and lots of conference over the years, international and such like, um, and I was just sharing this with one of the speakers. Uh, I think the power of it has been because [00:03:30] it's personal, like a lot of my conferences are professional, but this was also about me as a person. And that's what's been so great. The stories, Uh, not only the last few days, but the, uh, the pre conference, uh, transfer over 100 people there. Just powerful stories. And, um, once again, it's just people coming up to me from the different countries, grateful because of the scholarships, like the one person from Korea and just being overwhelmed by the experience of what it's [00:04:00] been life changing for people and and that and and it's once again, it's the experience of people coming together. And I think that's the value of conferences. We can talk about cyber conferencing and the importance of it. But it's people you know that face to face you can never underestimate. What are the things that you will take away from this? Uh, I'll take away once again the importance of, at times people coming [00:04:30] together to be strengthened. A lot of the people are working in isolation. Uh, and so the importance of doing that, uh, once again stories are of horror about what has gone on. For instance, trans people in Fiji that is close, but we never hear about what's been going these invisible stories. And yet this the importance of those and also, I suppose, just this generous, um, goodwill and and spirit here that I won't forget [00:05:00] for a long time. Have you noted any kind of similarities between people from different countries in terms of their experiences have have there been similar stories, or have there been differences? What I think there has been, uh, once again this it has been the experience of how at times, uh, ignorance and prejudice have affected people. Uh, and I think particularly the influence of religion. Uh uh, and And what we've seen [00:05:30] is the influence of American evangelicals across the Pacific and in Asia influencing local social debates about these issues. But also, what is the theme? Is this this, uh, and as with much human rights, this dogged passion and determination not to be beaten by that, uh, and, uh, the kind of the manner that people and pride that people stand. And I think it's when anyone, uh, finally [00:06:00] makes that statement becomes grounded in who they are. Then you cannot be stopped. And I think that has been important But once again what I think and that's been the value of the shearing, like in the plenary this morning. The diversity of Pacific Aboriginal and and then from Asia is that we also cannot just say we're all one, that the cultural context we must understand. And I think that's been really rich here. How many delegates All up? Uh, there's 315 [00:06:30] people were registered, so that's and and just about everyone's been here. So yeah, and can you describe the vibe, the feeling of this, uh, once again, you know, just it's been, uh, people. Everyone who's been coming to me saying It's just been a really positive vibe. Uh, we've been even getting feedback from the, uh, convention centre. People said, It's been a wonderful feeling at this conference. Uh, and I think, What? People, Once again, it's been a just a real sense of generosity and a sense [00:07:00] that excitement, because it's our stories being told and you can't beat that. So will you be organising one of these in the near future? Uh, not today, but, uh, what we have been talking about is the importance of taking this further and building on this. And, uh, there's discussions about how we're gonna do it and make it even a bigger and stronger Asia Pacific event. Finally, [00:07:30] if somebody is listening to this in 30 years time from the archive, um, what would you say to them? Once again, we have come a long way. Like if someone 25 years ago, when we we passed law reform would say what we have achieved, uh, we would be going. Oh, yeah. Well, uh, and but each story of liberation and that what rights people will have have been built on a past and never to forget that past and the the the passion of people [00:08:00] who have, uh, fought for that we must always honour. Yeah.

IRN: 332
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_arietta_tuitoga_and_co.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004142
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089436
TITLE: Arietta Tuitoga and co
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Arietta Tuitoga
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Arietta Tuitoga; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Fiji; Wellington Town Hall; human rights
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Arietta Tuitoga and an unidentified person from Fiji talk about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm a And, uh, I'm from Fiji. Uh, I work for Rainbow Women's Network. Uh, Fiji, Um, I'm the women's project officer. And what we do is we work with, um, gay women, uh, bisexual lesbians and also sex workers because, uh, we have some of our members who are gay but are also, uh, you know, self employed through sex work. And there are other women as well. [00:00:30] Who who like our space who are not gay. No sex workers. But, um, for them, they they they say that they are marginalised, but really at grass root root level. And because I think we've created a safe space, This is our third year. They they're also part of our group. So, uh, yeah, we you know, we we welcome them into our group and they gay friendly, and so yeah, because they they're part of our group. Um, I actually do part time [00:01:00] work with Rainbow Women's Network, Fiji. I have a full time job. Um, I must admit I am well educated and I'm here at the art games to to try and meet other women like me well educated women, because in Fiji we do have gay women that, um, do have good jobs, but we feel that, um, they prefer to be invisible. Um, [00:01:30] I think it's time now that we gay women actually start being concerned about women gay rights, which is really nonexistent in Fiji now. So what I want to do is go out into the workplace and try and form a support group and and stand up for our women gay rights. When? When you say they prefer to be invisible, Why? Why is that, um, for fear of losing their job? Um, Fiji [00:02:00] is very small. We're very close knit. Um, some of us, even me, I'm not out yet. And some of us, um, prefer to be like that. You know, Silver? Well, Fiji is such a small place, and to be out and gay is very, you know, it's quite scary because there's a lot of discrimination. There's a lot of bias. And for us women, well, we we prefer to be, you know, [00:02:30] safely tucked away in the closet. But we feel that now it's time for some of us to come out and, you know, be recognised as gay women has that homophobia or or that level of scariness. Has that increased, or has it always been there? Um, it's always been there for us in Fiji. We predominantly a Christian state. Uh, colonialism brought in Christianity, and it's still instilled in our families, [00:03:00] you know? And, um, from my personal point of view, quite a few of the gay women that I have met, um, where their family have found out that they're gay, they've been disowned by their family. So I think what we need to do is create an awareness amongst our community as well as their families that it's really OK to be gay. Um, we've had public demonstrations from one of the main religious groups, [00:03:30] and that doesn't help either. So, yeah, um, surprisingly, even though we've gone through a few military coups, our current military government is quite supportive of gay rights. Last year, they decriminalised homosexuality. So that's a start. Yeah. So I think now, if a few of us start standing up for gay rights, I think the momentum and the you know it will start growing and and our [00:04:00] gay community will start coming out, and yeah, Was that Was that a big fight to get decriminalisation? Uh, No, I don't I don't think so. It was already in the 1997 Constitution, but, um, I think also, I think in terms of human rights, I think they're beginning to to be more aware. And because I think, uh, you know, we have other. We have gay men who are at that level that also has influence. [00:04:30] Um, had some influence on on on it being decriminalised. And also from, uh, past, uh, lobbying and advocacy by other, um, gay, gay, other gay people. You know, in Fiji at that time when it started, the discussion started in in, uh 1997. Yeah. And also, I think, one of the concerns for me too. Personally, I've been coming to, uh uh, a few. Um uh, gay gay meetings in New Zealand. Uh, one of which [00:05:00] was, uh is the love life for which is usually specifically for HIV and a I and targeting MS M. And I remember when I came in 2009, one of the things I realised that there is also not only in Fiji the invisibility of lesbian women, but also in the Pacific, specifically in the South Pacific and one of the things I'd like to see that maybe in the next you know, Asia in the Pacific, that there would be other women from other Pacific Islanders here instead of just women from Fiji. Because there's usually only [00:05:30] women from Fiji or otherwise women from the Pacific who are who are, you know, living overseas, like in New Zealand and Australia. But it would be nice to get someone from the the island, you know, um, you know, maybe they have, you know, because I I know that I'm sure they have issues as well that they'd like to voice. But I suppose it's the you know, those cornerstones of the Pacific, which is cultural religion and all those That's that's the drawback for them to, you know, step up in. But this is a start. Can you [00:06:00] tell me a wee bit about the, um, Rainbow Women's Network? Rainbow Women's Network is actually fairly new. We started in 2009, and the idea came about when we had our first workshop for marginalised women, women, sex workers and gay women at grassroots level. And the women themselves found out well, they really wanted just specifically a women's network, you know, for support and stuff like that. So that's how it came about. We are in the middle of registering, and [00:06:30] our management board consists of our community sex workers and gay women at grassroots level. They make all the decisions. We find the money. We do workshops, we facilitate workshops. We bring in women. The women like our Fiji women's rights movement to give a talk and tell them you know what really their basic rights are. We participate in events. Last week, International Women's Day, we marched for Reclaim the night. But this year we we not only want [00:07:00] to do workshops, we also want to do activities for income generating activities because most of our members really are unemployed. So we want to concentrate on that, um, this year and we we have to say we the first, um, lesbian woman's network and yeah, and yeah, and, um, our success stories, our support, fortnightly support groups, we have We just sit around a bowl of, [00:07:30] uh, have a bowl of and we talk about issues, and that's where all the stories of women and as our members come to the meeting, they also bring in some of their friends as well. So our membership is actually growing as well, too. What size membership do you currently have? Um, at the moment. Now we have, uh, like I said, we're quite small. We have, uh, Regis. Yeah. 50 non registered members. We we have quite a lot. We also [00:08:00] want to move on to women at university. The youth. We want to target the youth. Um, as well, too. So, yeah, it's it's it's growing. I know that the session is about to start, but just one last question. If somebody was listening to this tape in 30 years time, what would you like to say to them? Well, I hope I, I don't want to say if someone was listening to this tape. I'm hoping that, um when we're long gone that there'll be about 10,000 lesbians all [00:08:30] hidden in the closet in Fiji and saying, Wow, so, you know, I mean, I must admit that I'm here. I had actually had to lie to my boss. I mean, I couldn't tell I'm coming to the art game. She wouldn't have given me leave. So yeah, that's that's how it is. now. So in the next 10 years, I hope all you lesbians out there in Fiji and the Pacific, you know, stand up for your rights. Yeah, I would feel the same way as well, maybe in the next 30 years. Or once we [00:09:00] leave this planet that there will be more voices women, lesbians, invisible voices coming to meetings like this and, um, sharing and sharing your stories because I think it's important for for people to know, and it's also building networks.

IRN: 284
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_annette_xiberras_keynote.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004125
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089419
TITLE: Annette Xiberras - AsiaPacific Outgames
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Annette Xiberras; David Huebner
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Annette Xiberras; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Australia; David Huebner; Ilott Theatre; Wellington Town Hall; growing up; lesbian; parenting; transcript online
DATE: 17 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Annette Xiberras delivers a keynote presentation. Annette is introduced by David Huebner, the United States Ambassador to New Zealand. The presentation happened during the second plenary session: Our rights across the Asia Pacific region - a snapshot.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm absolutely delighted to be here to chair this plenary session as part of the human rights conference. Uh, I'm delighted to see so many confident, engaged, committed, unabashed LGBT people in one place. Uh, that's always nice to see. Uh, the turf on which we operate is shifting sand. We're [00:00:30] never sure if a step forward is really a step forward or just a temporary lurch before we get pulled back. And sometimes our biggest enemies are the people who say we've gone far enough. We've got enough or everything's at exactly the right point. So it's always nice to see people come together and share ideas, share complaints and share plans for how to move forward. Um, we're fortunate this morning to have three [00:01:00] diverse, highly experienced and knowledgeable speakers who will present on the general topic of our rights across the region by way of giving us a snapshot of this part of the world as it relates to our issues. Our presenters I will introduce in a moment I won't do them all at one time. I will do the introduction as the individual person comes up. Once we've completed the presentations, [00:01:30] uh, there will be an opportunity for questions and answers. So please store those up until we're finished with all three speakers. Uh, we're committed to finishing by 10 o'clock so that we're not the cause for the disruption of your schedule over the course of today. Uh, so again, thank you for having me. I'm delighted to be here, and I would like to introduce our first presenter, who I believe is Annette from Australia. Now, I will give you a full [00:02:00] introduction. Annette, Annette is an is an elder of the people whose traditional lands cover the area. Many of us know as Melbourne, Annette has worked passionately to protect aboriginal cultural heritage for future generations. Her work has encompassed archaeological investigations, cultural heritage management, reburials and preservation of cultural knowledge. She is co-chair of the Victorian traditional [00:02:30] owners Land Justice Group, a forum representing traditional owners across the state of Victoria. As though that wasn't enough, She also runs the first and currently the only cultural heritage consultancy owned by an indigenous woman in Australia. So please, uh, welcome as warmly as possible. Annette [00:03:00] normally, um, in Australia, when we talk on someone's country, we always take the time to recognise it and this is the Maori's country and I'd like to take the time to thank them for letting me speak on their country. I'm not sure what the right words are to say, but I hope they covered it. If anybody's here, that's Maori. I'm I'm aboriginal and I'm a gay black widow. I'm probably one of the first women to to lose their partners. [00:03:30] My name is Anna Cheri and I'm I ran or I own the first black Aboriginal company gay company. But today there's a few other guys who, um, who are straight guys who run other aboriginal companies. My people normally believe in a creator called El, who's an eagle who flew out over a vast plane of nothing and created the world from that world. Nations from those nations, countries and from [00:04:00] those countries to people. That's why a lot of aboriginal people say my land, my country, my mother and it's an affiliation we have with the land that no one can take away. Also evolution. It's it doesn't really matter what religion you look at, whether it's evolution or that we all believe in the one thing we come from the land and I was doing this talk once in a Roman Catholic church, and this fellow got up to me and he said, Look, you know, I've got no problem with your dream time. I You know, I believe that we we come from the F two. But he said, You know, I believe Adam [00:04:30] and Eva White I said, Oh, shit, I said, You know, Well, that explains everything, because if they had been black, they would have said stuff the apple and ate the snake and we and we wouldn't have got kicked out of Eden, which is true anyway. Our our our our our bunch or two, believes that LA gives life to everything. And it's a mother and and we [00:05:00] we should respect it. And my grandmother, Granny Jemima, who was full blood or harm just before uh, they put everybody onto the reserves, was talking and walking with my grandmother one day, and she turned around and Nana and then I wanted to pick this flower, she said to to Nana, don't pick this flower. And then I said Why? And she said, because if you pick their flow, No-one else can see the beauty of that, and it's not there just for one person. It's there for everybody. And that's a bit about our culture. We, we we [00:05:30] we believe in caring and sharing and respecting each other's values. I was actually born gay, Um, from a very young age, Um, I was sent being aboriginal. I was sent to a Roman Catholic school and when we were little, we, um, used to play Kiss Chay and for some reason, I never wanted to kiss the boys. So I used to run after and kiss the girls. And behold, the bloody nuns used to always flog me. They used to have this, um, Bible or this, [00:06:00] uh, stick thing duster. And they were quite often, once a week either hit me over the head with it or or smacking me for not fitting into the protocol of of white society and being black and gay back then, I I really blew their brains in the seventies today. Look back. Back in the in the seventies and the sixties when I was born, I've been asked to talk about how it was then and how it is now. And I remember [00:06:30] that, uh, back then, if you if you loved a woman or you loved a man, they thought there was something wrong with you. They'd wanna lock you up. They'd want to bash you. And we've all heard about stolen Children. But as gay people back in those days, we don't talk about it. But if you were gay, they thought that the Children were in moral danger and I'd actually take your Children from you, Which is which is a pretty thing. And I know we've come a long way today, but we really haven't come all that far. When you look at things [00:07:00] again. Back in the seventies, it was impossible. If you're gay to to get anywhere today, we've got some of the best jobs in the world. I started off in the seventies as an Aboriginal archaeological site officer. Being black and gay was really scary because there was no women in the field. Women weren't accepted. Back then you had to be a man to do cultural heritage. So I fought the odds and I went in and I took the job. And for the next two years, my whole life was hell. Not only did I have the other aboriginal [00:07:30] site officer men against me. I also had just the normal people within the work, working really hard against me. You have to excuse me. I apologise for the way I'm dressed too. I forgot to tell you, but, uh, somehow, uh, all my clothes, toothpaste, brush and arm deodorant. So thank God you're back there. It has has been lost. So, um, I apologise for the way I look, but I really took this serious. [00:08:00] And I want to look as flesh as the ambassador, but I've end up looking like a squid hog, which tells my true past. Thank you. So really, as a site officer, they put me through hell. The boys, you know, they said, Oh, you have to be able to knock off a slab and be able to smoke some of that green stuff to be part of the crew. And I didn't smoke or drink. So the first three [00:08:30] Stubbs I did, the first thing I did was have to run and hide because I everywhere. But it was the only way I could get into the circle. And it was really sad that you had to subject yourself to stuff like that to be accepted as one of the boys from there from fighting really hard. I fought for the right as a gay woman to do aboriginal reburials. I'm the only woman nationally in Victoria who does reburials and who does my job. There's still no one else, and I'm also the longest serving person in aboriginal cultural heritage. [00:09:00] And like I said, when I first went in there, it was really, really tough. I was one of the forefronts there after fighting for our rights within aboriginal affairs and, uh, getting to actually be co-chair of Victoria, which is a really big responsibility. And again, I'm one of the first black gay women to get into these positions. And it's really hard to get into these positions because not only have you got people shaking your hand and and being really nice to your face, [00:09:30] 95% of the people are putting a knife in your back and really jealous and want to take your position. So you've always got to keep one step ahead and two steps in front after setting that up, and it took me something like 17 years to to get there. I met a a beautiful lady called, um, Cathy Adams, who six years later I married and and had 22 beautiful Children to And, um, she wanted Children. And I thought, Oh, jeez. How are we gonna do that? [00:10:00] So I went out in the community. I panic because I'm from the seventies, and she was from the eighties. She was She was 10 years younger than me. So I went out and found, um, a child that really no one wanted and we were going to put up for adoption. I brought her home and said, Babe, I got one. She looked at me. She said, No, honey, I wanna have a baby. And and immediately, my heart broke because I thought she'd want to sleep with a man or something like that. She said, no, we're going to do IVF. [00:10:30] I said, All right, I'm there. And we went in there and back then, Uh, six years ago, in 2006, we actually started in about 2000. It was illegal for black women to have Children, but nothing like that ever stops me. So So what I did was I had a few friends from being up within in the community. And I got people to, um, turn a blind eye and Cathy, I and I from 2002 to about 2006, went through the IVF programme. And other, [00:11:00] uh, other gay women had to go to New South Wales. But I refused to do that. And I fought really long and hard, and we were a bit of rebels there and and we broke the law. But we had our first child. Julia and I was so proud of Julia. She was a She was a beautiful girl. But as I was telling you, working as an Aboriginal side office wasn't the best. And, um, a lot of times I was put on restricted duties, So we had Julia were proud, and I'm getting in and out of trouble as usual, [00:11:30] fighting for gay rights. And Cathy says we I want another baby. I said, Alright, and we had Joey on ice. So we went and we took Joey off. So he was on ice for two years because we didn't want to have two at once, because I was really scared. I thought, How are we gonna do this? we'll go one at the time. This looks easy. Not easy, guys, but worth it. So we went and we had Joey and she's pregnant with Joe and she she's she's home with Julia and and I come home from work. She goes rights wrong, honey. And I said, Oh, they've stood me down [00:12:00] again, Babe, she goes But they've stood you down and I said, Yeah, but I've still got my pay packet And she looked at me and I seen the fear in her eyes and she got really, really scared because here we are. We've got a child here. We're renting a house, She's got another baby on the way. And and the government was continually treating me like you wouldn't believe at one particular stage. I was managing an aboriginal organisation in Danny, and for the first time ever, I got all the tribes around the table [00:12:30] not talking about you very nicely, trying to jump the table and punch the shit out of each other but talking. So I thought, This is a great step. We're going well and, um, a lot of time in my life through being gay and and the sort of white crew you had in there and the black crew because there was also a black crew in there that was against gay people. They made my life difficult, very difficult. And, um, when I was managing, [00:13:00] uh, cooler nations, they sent this white Nathan man over there to try and put me in my place. Because not only did I think I was a woman who didn't know my place, they thought I was a woman that was seriously needed. Medical help, even in the nineties and two thousands. And they sent this gentleman over not only to show me in my place, but to pull me in line, which was virtually impossible. And again, a lot of time I'd get in trouble from the government. And the only reason [00:13:30] I was in trouble because supposedly someone who made a phone call who wouldn't leave their name who wouldn't leave their number and wouldn't leave a contact so the government would put me on restricted duties for six months and after I proved my innocence would take me off. But this time, when they sent the white overseer over was the worst time in my life. He sacked people because he misunderstood family rights. Then we had to state them and at the end, because he couldn't break me and found find nothing wrong with me. He actually tried [00:14:00] to physically knock me out in the office and he was a big fella and I ducked and got out of the way and I said, Stuff this And then I went on stress leave for a year because I couldn't go back to the office and because it was so successful because the organisation was so good, they shut it down. And that's when I went home and Paul Cafe was sitting there. And that's when I thought, Look, you know, I want to work in the government and I want to make a better place for my people and because I do all the reburials and that I've got so [00:14:30] much responsibility. I can't walk from it. I'm in the Melbourne tribe. You know, A lot of our people have got drug and alcohol problems. What do I do? So lo and behold, I started up my first consultancy, first black aboriginal consultancy. I I'd seen what the white people were doing, and if they can make that sort of money. Why Can't ask black fellas too. So I started up my company and I thought I was going really, really well. And guess what happened? That White Boys Club and Black Boys Club within [00:15:00] Aboriginal affairs. Victoria came after me again, and being gay was really bad because like, there was a lot of people in there who wouldn't stick up for me and thought I was wrong. And if I'd have been black and straight, I wouldn't have had to be subjected to the things I was subjected to. So after this gentleman tried to hit me, I went out on stress leave. I started up my company, and I also thought, I'll take this to the union because the [00:15:30] union in Victoria is pretty good. And it it's pretty gay friendly. We got him on 23 charges. He pleaded guilty to 13, but did they sack him? No. What they did was they transferred him to the museum in Victoria and gave him information for at least trying to pull the stupid black gay woman into into line over there again. He he harassed gay people and stood over him. Since then, he's been moved sideways again [00:16:00] so things aren't as good as you think. There was another time when I took the, um government on again and because I was a black gay woman and I was taken on a straight black man who was running the department at the time. The director. I spoke to people within equal opportunity who said I had an unbeatable case. So I took it up. The gentleman he was representing my my case is now [00:16:30] the actual director of Aboriginal affairs, Victoria, which seems quite strange. But he forgot to lodge my complaint. So therefore it wasn't lodged in time. So Aboriginal Affairs got a way of 17 years of putting me through hell, making me sit in a car, watch everybody else go around. I couldn't go out and look after my sights. And like I said, the opportunity officer who handled my case is now the [00:17:00] director of Aboriginal Affairs. Victoria and I'd like to point out here. It wasn't just black gay women. It was black women that they were against. They thought women really should be at home. And I want to say again, my culture isn't like that. These black men have been affected by white culture in our society, which has made things go really, really bad. Now I'd like to [00:17:30] so I'm just running through this and I had someone talk and they said, Talk a bit about this a bit about this so I can give you a bit of an over overview of Of what's happening. I'd like to talk a bit now about, uh, out black out. Black is a, um, organisation set up in Victoria and originally it was set up by the gay men and I didn't realise this. And when they first set it up back in about 96 they had a, um, meeting and a Christmas party and they had on [00:18:00] it for sister girls. And because of my life fighting so hard for my people's rights and gay rights, I always end up in a heterosexual circle heterosexual conferences. So I'm not really, um, Cathy was really good at this sort of stuff, and I forgot to say Cathy passed away 12 months ago. She died in my arms, and no one knows why. But we've still got a little four year old and a six year old. You'll hear them out out there occasionally on their DS S. They're great kids. I love them. [00:18:30] And when I was flying over here, I just want to point out really quick. Um, they wouldn't let me fly as a mother. They made me fly as a father. And I told them, You know, in in aboriginal language, we call boys things a Pippy and bubbles and I said, Look, you know, I've got none of that. I'm a woman and I'm a mother. But there was no provision. Even though I'm on the kids' birth certificate in Victoria, we've got a group a lady called Felicity. She she [00:19:00] She's a legend, She's a gay woman, and she's fought so hard for us to get rights to be recognised as partners. Yet when we fill in government papers, the only way we can fit into the papers is even with the men's role. Even on the birth certificate. I'm a parent because as a parent and not the second mother, they would not put me on the passports as a mother, and I was arguing. I argued for about two months and this conference was getting really close, so I give up and come over as a father. Normally [00:19:30] I wouldn't give up. I'd fight to the end. But I really want to come to this conference and I don't know why. And probably it was just Cathy being gay and and where I work and what I do not having much to do with gay people. This was really important because I want my my Children to know they're a rainbow family. They're gay. So even though we've made a lot of steps in Victoria, there's still a lot of bureaucratic forms that don't recognise what we're fighting for and what they've said that they've now achieved. So I'd like to just say thanks [00:20:00] to Felicity and the Rainbow Families in Victoria, they have done a lot of work and a lot of things for us. Anyway, back to our black, I went along to their first meeting and they said, Oh, sister girls, Christmas party. So again, me not knowing much about being, uh, being gay, but not knowing much about the the the the trendy bits I rolled, rolled it rocked along because, um, it was a black turn, and the boy said to me, Hey, what are you doing here? I said the sister girl party. They said, not that sister Girl. Boy, [00:20:30] sister girl, I said, Oh, gosh, what am I gonna do? So they threw me in in in in the, uh, land room and put the telly on. I said, OK, this is all right. They said as soon as we finish our meeting, you can come out. I said, Oh, so I got to sit here for two hours. We use boys. Me Then I can come out said, But I'm gay too. And they said, No, no, no, Sister Girls, I said, all right. But they brought me a few beers while they were having their meeting, and they looked after me like that, and I watched home and away and neighbours. And finally, finally, [00:21:00] they finished their meeting and they let me out there for a chin wag with him, and I couldn't work out why I couldn't have been there in the first place. Ronnie Johnson set up our black. He was a he he he died. And, um, he died a couple of years ago, but he set out black up, and, uh, a gentleman called Brian and he took it over after he passed away. And Brian's like my nephew. He's a beautiful boy. He He's another black man. And so was Ronnie, and, uh, he opened the door for women to come into our black. So today, women converse [00:21:30] with our black, Um, but for some reason, the black women in Victoria don't seem to party as hard as the boys, so we don't come together and meet as much as what the boys do. But we're pretty staunch and we stick together. But there's also a lot of black women from my age group now. Remember back in the seventies, when it was where you're gay, you're bashed, you're raped, you know, they took your Children off them. A lot [00:22:00] of us have still got this in our mind, and I do see a lot of gay women in the black community, but they won't come out in the closets, get a few drinks in of them, and you're right. But she got those drinks into them. They're really, really scared to come out. And and I think the reason why a lot of older women our age are scared to come out is because we lived through that process. And that's what I loved about Cathy. Like she didn't grow up in the seventies. She grew up in the eighties and nineties where you didn't get bashed, you didn't get [00:22:30] raped. And she had this this this thing about being gay that I loved and she never, ever had fear. You know, the fear that I had when we first had the Children. I had the fear of being black and stolen Children, but also the fear of being gay and stolen Children. The thought that the government thought that those Children might be in moral danger. But Caine never ever had those fears. And I love the look in her eyes and I love the way. But I just want to feel that, too. But [00:23:00] through living through the seventies, I've always got that in the back of my head. What about if we slip back and we go back there? What's going to happen to my Children? What's going to happen to me? What's gonna happen to you? But hopefully we've got really good people out there and we won't slip back. OK, then, not a problem. Sorry about that, guys. Yeah, it's OK.

IRN: 331
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_annah_pickering.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004141
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089435
TITLE: Annah Pickering
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Annah Pickering
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Annah Pickering; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Auckland; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; Wellington Town Hall; human rights; sex work
DATE: 17 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Annah Pickering from New Zealand talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi. My name is Anna Pickering, and I'm from the New Zealand Prostitutes Collective Auckland Branch. Um, and we came. I sorry. I came to the conference because our group had, um, presented a workshop here, Um, talking about decriminalisation and law reform around sex workers rights, and, um, health and safety. How did that workshop go? We were fantastic. Um, we had a panel of six worker representatives from a New Zealand, [00:00:30] um, Malaysia, Fiji and who spoke about what the laws were like in all three countries. And, um, the human rights issues that are happening for them there. And, um also, um, the issues that the sex workers are facing in those countries, um, around, um, which was brought around LGBTI and, um, heterosexual people. Yeah. What were the similarities and differences between the countries? Well, in New Zealand, sex [00:01:00] work is decriminalised and is probably one of the best models globally. But what we found, like in Fiji, that, um, their laws were not, um it was illegal as well as, um, in Malaysia. And, um, there was discussions around violence, um, police, entrapment. And, um, you know, particularly sex workers who were being violated of their rights is decriminalisation in those other countries going to happen any time soon? Well, it opened up the [00:01:30] floor for discussions around looking at models, um, happening in, you know, globally as well as in what's happening here in New Zealand and for those groups to go back, um, to their countries and and start the process around, you know, homosexual law reform and, um, sex worker law reform. Um, it's been a positive thing for the sex industry in New Zealand. Um, sex workers are no longer redeemed as, um criminals. There's no police register book. Um, sex workers can report incidents of violence. The only, [00:02:00] um, the other thing is that, um, condoms and lob lubrication were were historically used as evidence against sex workers. So, um, as far as the health and safety practises are concerned, it's, you know, they're protected under the law, just like any other occupation. The there are still people out there groups out there who want to recriminate, particularly street based sex workers who are very vulnerable, um, and predominantly transgender, um, sex workers. So that's one of our concerns, um, [00:02:30] as well, bringing that forth coming to the conference, too. as well. Has there been anything at the conference that's really challenged you and challenged your ideas? Oh, I mean, there's been some amazing speaking I mean, amazing people here who presented at the conference, Um, and the plenary, um, Programmes. But I think what's come out of this conference is the issues on human rights advocacy and, um, just, you know, groups [00:03:00] to be inspired and keep doing the work that they're doing working in policy education. Um, and yeah, those sort of issues. Yeah. Which of the speakers have already stood out for you? The, um, speaker from Malaysia. Um, Grace. Sorry, Grace. Poor, um, the other the first person, um, who spoke on the opening of the session would have been, um, Marilyn Waring. [00:03:30] Yeah, she did a fantastic, um, and Carl Polo in. He was fantastic as well. Um, and Felicia, who spoke this morning as well. Yeah, she's Yeah, they've all great speakers, and I think they've at least something memorable I could think of. Um, hopefully I mean, I really like to hear what Boris, um, Dietrich from the Netherlands would have to say. Speak about this afternoon. So I mentioned, um, that would be, um, he'd be a great speaker as well. Felicia was very strong this morning. Yeah, definitely. And, um, [00:04:00] and it was good to bring up the, you know, around the Pacific. Um, people being represented at, you know, the out games and the Not only that, but just at the, um, the conference itself. But one of the things I think I'd like to see is more of a, um, you know, more discussions around, you know, a lot. You know, lesbian Pacific Island women at the conference. There wasn't a lot of input in that. And there was a lot of input on brown that if you're gay, you're either. [00:04:30] And I just feel that there's a lot of oppression when it comes to, um, Pacific Island issues around lesbian, same sex, um, also, uh, oppression around sex workers. Who, um, who are Pacific island as well. So I think that there there should have been something more spoken about that. Um, I brought it up in one of the workshops, um, and to the American Samoa contingent group. And they mentioned that as far as their knowledge was concerned, there isn't any sex workers that they know of happening in their island, but interesting enough [00:05:00] when you look at countries like in Papua New Guinea and Pacific uh, Fiji, Um, there are representatives from Fiji here today. We were talking about those issues and the, um, groups that are coming out from these islands representing sex workers in G BT. I issues that, um there could be more focus put on to that as well, because when people talk about the pacific, it's not Polynesia. You know, there's Melania as well. Um, so I feel that, um, the, you know, that could be more broader. Um, yeah, that's [00:05:30] my perspective. And when you say oppressions, where is that coming from? It's just from the discussions that I've had with some of the, um the queer PIS who really haven't had much of a voice here. Um, at the conference, who sort of said that the, um that they don't identify as, um and for them, you know, they're either a gay man or a lesbian. So I hate those labels, but do you know what I mean? Um, the [00:06:00] the Yeah. You can't put them under the one umbrella and like like I said, when you're talking about Pacific. It's border. I mean, something that Felicia brought up that there were, you know, 22 countries that make up the region. So there's only like most of the input that have been put through the conference to at this conference was mainly representatives from Samoa and Tonga. Um, and there were two presenters from Fiji, but they didn't even cover the issues around, um, sex worker issues, which I know that they work with in Fiji. And yeah, so [00:06:30] yeah. So how how do we broaden it out? There are a lot of groups that, um, are running in the Pacific that aren't here. And, um, just the awareness and building up the networks is really important. Like the two Pacific guys, um, over there from Fiji. Like they see that, you know, they're working on human rights issues in Fiji, and that's something that's lacking there at the moment. And for them, it's about building the networks here. Um, learn what they you know, the networks here and the people that have met with at this conference and [00:07:00] go back to Fiji and be inspired and and go from there. So what would be the things that you would take away from a conference like this or what are the things you're going to take away from this conference? I mean, you know, we live in a safe world in New Zealand, and, you know, we've got Like I said, you know, there was homosexual law reform, the Prostitution Reform Act. And when you look at people, you know, when people who are coming from developing countries and Third World countries are here talking about the issues that they're facing, it sort of puts a perspective in, [00:07:30] Um, just how lucky we are. And we shouldn't take things for granted. Um, And then, you know, I get out there and, you know, join the networks and the, um you know, the Facebook political groups. And, um and, you know, just keep informed about what's happening globally, um, in other countries, and and also what happens here locally, um, keep up to date with or keep your local politicians up to date with what things are happening. And, um, the groups that are here in New Zealand pass that information around. Yeah. [00:08:00] I mean, that's probably what I Yeah, what I could say in a nutshell. Yeah, I'm just wondering, What do you think are the biggest issues facing a in New Zealand at the moment, in terms of human rights? Well, I mean, after coming back from the plenary, um, seminar this morning, The discussions here that came out was, um you know, I don't I mean, I'd like to talk about politics and that, but people were saying that, um, under this current leadership that, you know, human rights [00:08:30] is not a number one on the agenda. So when you think about issues or social issues that have been fought, um, and are really moving, you know, and globally through the board that they could be something pushed back. That's really it's a worry. Yeah. Um, but yeah, those are my That's my personal comments. Yeah. If somebody is listening to this in 30 years time, what would you say to them? Hopefully we're still around. No, [00:09:00] um I mean, you know, I mean, people are lucky, Like the generation. I mean, who've never known what it's like to, um, you know, fight for, you know, gay, lesbian trans rights wouldn't have the coup what it's like. Um, so I think that they should feel lucky and honoured and, you know, learn the history. Um, and, um, be proud of it. And, you know, don't take things for granted. Yeah, and probably get out there and travel and see what the issues are happening and, you know, globally, like in other, you know, developing [00:09:30] countries. And you just get out there out of your square, Yeah.

IRN: 330
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_angela_king.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004140
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089434
TITLE: Angela King
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Angela King
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Angela King; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Wellington; education; human rights; school; teaching
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Angela King from New Zealand talks about attending the human rights conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm Angela King. I'm from Wellington, Um, at the conference as part of my union, The PPT A. I'm a secondary school teacher. Um, and I've been given employment related educational leave to attend. Um, which is a great thing. So this, um, the this conference here is part of the the human rights conference is part of the out games is also, um, part of the outer is the out of work have had their conference. They combined it. Yeah. Can you describe for me the kind of current state [00:00:30] of queer and gender, um, issues in secondary schools in New Zealand at the moment? Um, I think that it's a really hard job for young people to, um Who are, you know, who are at the age where they're coming to grips with their sexuality and so of, of all kinds, And so it's. But it's extra hard for, um, young gay or lesbian people to have the confidence to come out at school. Um, feel like that. They've got the support of of teachers and other students. [00:01:00] Um, gay is a really common put down in schools. Um, it's synonymous with stupid or dumb, or and that's a really hard word to be, um, bandied about, um so I think that that for one, makes it quite hard. I think that, um I'm very lucky. I work in a school which is really gay friendly. And it's not just the gay teachers who will pull up kids for using homophobic language, but we have a A staff where straight straight teachers will will do that as well. But I know that that's [00:01:30] not the same in all secondary schools. Yeah, So where do you think that the word gay as a put down came from? When did that kind of come into existence? I'm not really sure. I mean, young people's language changes really fast. And, um, it's hard as an oldie to to keep up with that, um, I. I don't know where it became synonymous, but kids have the sense that it doesn't mean homosexual anymore, so it doesn't have that connotation. But it's really important for gay and lesbian teachers [00:02:00] and straight teachers to explain that that that word echoes and and it does mean that. And that's what some people claim as their identity. So it's extremely painful when I try and talk to kids about it. I say, Well, it's like saying, Oh, yeah, fucking redhead. You know, it's some people's identity. It's still and that although they might not think that there's anyone gay in their class, um, one in 10 is a statistic. And maybe it's a sister, an aunt, an uncle, a cousin, a neighbour. And and that's still a really painful word [00:02:30] for young people, or for for anybody to hear as a as a put down. So what words do they use to describe homosexuals? Yeah, I mean, there's lots and and I'd say that, um, I think that, um, homophobic words against men are probably more prevalent. I think lesbians are more invisible or less threatening or something like that. So, yeah, there's lots of words and I'm 30 [00:03:00] 38. I can't keep up with kids language. I learn new words all the time. Now you're saying that your school is quite gay friendly? How does that play out? Is that in terms of, uh, teaching or just teachers pulling up kids for for using things like the word gay? Yeah, um, it's not in terms of teaching, and that's one thing that I've been thinking quite a lot about at this conference. I've talked to people older people who, um and we've talked about our histories and the way in which out [00:03:30] young, gay and lesbian people unaware of our histories, teachers at my school, I spoke to a young man and said, You know, that was really painful for some people because did you know that it was illegal to be gay in New Zealand until the mid eighties 19 eighties? And students don't know that. And I was recounting the story to a young staff member in the staff room, and they didn't know either. So I have a sense that lots of our history is is not being told to our young people. And one of the notes I wrote myself, um, yesterday was I'm going to [00:04:00] approach the social studies department and ask them to do a a unit, ask them if they could create a unit of work, and I guess it doesn't if they don't feel comfortable with it. You know, this is the social days work about gay and lesbian people, but about reform or about minority, or about something we're we're still getting our history, told because I think I really feel like that's we're losing that a little bit for our young people. So in your school environment at the moment is gender or queer [00:04:30] studies taught in any area of the curriculum? No. No. So, um, I'm an English teacher, So I guess I have an opportunity to present poets and artists who and I make a point of saying, Oh, you know, this person was gay, but no. Nowhere. Nowhere. Not even in health or Oh, OK, so the health curriculum. Yeah. So there's sexuality education as part of that. Yeah, but I think that's putting it away somewhere and saying this. Yeah, and it needs I want it to be [00:05:00] everywhere, you know? Why shouldn't it permeate through all of our curriculum? And, um, yeah, I think it otherwise, it puts it in a box. This is just to do with sex, and it it isn't just to do with sex. So do you have any art students? Um, yes. We've had, um 22 boys on two separate years who took male partners to the ball. So that was pretty exciting. Um, we, um most of all of the teachers at school are out. [00:05:30] Um, I spent quite a lot of time supporting a young woman last year who was in the process of coming out. Um, but we don't We don't have any kind of, um, rainbow network or out at school group or anything like that. Um, but yeah. Yeah, there are. Yeah. What was the reaction to the the guys taking their their boyfriends to the ball? It was pretty low key. And I think that's really fantastic, I think. Well, I mean, the gay and lesbian teachers are really excited. We were more excited than [00:06:00] everyone else for like, but, um, yeah, there wasn't. There wasn't a negative response at all as far as as far as I could work it out. Yeah. Have you seen a change in student reactions over the time that you've been teaching in terms of how they deal with queer or gender issues? Um, this is my 16th year of teaching. I started teaching in a, um, a smallish secondary school in a small town, and I didn't have apart from the homophobic stuff, I didn't have any sense of any positivity around that [00:06:30] at school. Um, but I think that the at the same time as the language Still being quite negative. There is a a bit more of an acceptance, a bit more of a a whatever kind of attitude. So I do think so, Yeah. Do you have any other examples of things that have happened at your school to do with gender or sexuality? Um, in terms of staff. And, um, every year we there's a, uh, professional development session on, [00:07:00] um, harassment and bullying in school. And we quite often co-opt that into, um, some about homophobia. So our staff are are well used to having at least one afternoon a week. Where, uh, a year. Sorry, we We raise that we raise that issue and we point some things out. Um, it's a It's a really comfortable school for me just to be who I am. We have family dinners with all the gay and lesbian stuff. Go to the Deputy Principals House once a year for dinner. [00:07:30] So, yeah. Is there any Is there any homophobia within the teaching staff itself? Not that I'm aware of at my school? No, but I've experienced it at other schools. Yeah, I taught at an all boys secondary school, Um, for a while, and that was horrendous. It was really awful. Yeah. Could you give me some examples? Um, teachers would use those slurs towards kids, and no one would pull them up on it. [00:08:00] Yeah, it was horrid. It was horrid. So how do you change that? Oh, II I I'm I'm out of than out. And so I think that, um, I as an out lesbian in the staff room, I was. And I'm pretty open about talking about stuff. So I think that, um in terms of trying to trying to change the staff's mind, um, I answered any ridiculous question they wanted to ask me, You know, what do lesbians do and [00:08:30] be that kind of really, you know, unimaginative stuff, but in terms of getting it out there for for the boys, it's a massive cultural structural mindset shift that one woman couldn't take on. Can you talk a wee bit about your current, uh, school and just the whole idea of visibility? Why is that important? II, I guess. What? The way my school, um um, manages [00:09:00] it isn't kind of in that out and proud and shouty kind of way. It's just a quiet kind of low key. You know, we'll deal with this when it comes up. Homophobic language isn't tolerated in our school, but in the sense of we don't have, there's no sense of kind of celebration or, um, yeah, I. I really like the kind of just the ordinariness of it. I think that that's I. I see that as a kind of [00:09:30] a a move, a movement along a spectrum that we we've got to and it's it's kind of nice. Yeah. So this conference, what do you What would you want to take out of it? Um, I've taken out of it. Lots of personal stuff around, stuff that I didn't know around trans people. Um, I've taken out of it, um, that I wanna I wanna go and do some talking to people in departments. Let's go and try and get [00:10:00] more gay and lesbian talk across the curriculum. I want to, um, think about our collective agreement and what that offers, um, in terms of, um, Trans trans people, that that was a really big kind of learning thing for me. It wasn't something I'd come across or, you know, had an experience of and so that was a big piece of personal learning. I feel fucking lucky that I live here, you know, because some people's lives in other parts of the world are really shit. And other schools here and and other [00:10:30] schools are really shit. And I feel really lucky. If someone was listening to this in 30 years time and you had to say something to them, what would that be? I think it I think it is about knowing your history and being grateful and proud of the hard work that those who have come before you've done. And I feel that, I mean, in 2011, I've got lots and lots of people to be really thankful for that. I can be as out and as confident in my school as I can be and [00:11:00] in my world, in my life as I can be. And, um uh, yeah, I know your history. I know the hard slog that was done for for you on your behalf so that you can be as out and proud and who you want to be. What do you think the biggest issues are facing? Um uh, queer and and gender communities in New Zealand. Um, and this is kind of a a personal or, uh yeah, kind of my own experience. I think I've been thinking quite a lot about, um when [00:11:30] I I came out in Palmerston North, which is a small town in the in the bottom of the North Island. And we we had quite a, um a big, uh, a strong kind of group there, Um, and we ran our own, um, nightclub. And we struggled with the fact that, um, that our young people in the community didn't need us as much anymore. They could go to straight clubs and they felt OK there. So I think maybe for for us older ones letting that happen and accepting that and not fighting [00:12:00] it and doing what's what, what the young people want us to do rather than what we needed or what we think they should do. So we need to chill and relax and and move with where our young people are going and do what? Uh, listen to them. Ask them what they want from us, our oldies, and yeah, and do what they need.

IRN: 315
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_conference_opening.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004121
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089415
TITLE: Conference opening - AsiaPacific Outgames
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Arie van der Wiel; Barry Taylor; Grant Robertson; Rosslyn Noonan
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Arie van der Wiel; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Barry Taylor; Grant Robertson; Ilott Theatre; Jack Byrne; June Jackson; Margaret Mayman; Rosslyn Noonan; Sam Jackson; Sam Orchard; W. H. Auden; Wellington Town Hall; human rights
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the opening of the Human Rights conference. The opening took place in the Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: No. Welcome everyone to this the, uh, second Asia Pacific Out games Human rights conference. My name is Barry Taylor, and I am the conference convenor. It is my pleasure to welcome and to, uh, sort of lead us through the opening ceremony. Um, for this conference, we have some apologies today, Uh, unfortunately, uh, his Excellency, the [00:00:30] governor general, the patron of the second, uh, Asian Pacific Art Games. Sir Satyan, uh, was is unable to make it today. But of course, he was here on Saturday and officially opened, uh, the art games. Just to note that in the history of the gay Games and the art games, it is the first time that a head of state has actually, um, has opened the games. And as Grant Robertson appropriately acknowledged, it was appropriate that a representative of a queen opened the games. [00:01:00] Um, the Honourable Justice Michael Kirby from Australia, who has, uh, a former high court judge of Australia who is the patron of the conference, had hoped to come and actually be a keynote presenter. Unfortunately, he is doing major work with the Commonwealth at the moment, and he was unable to make it, uh the honourable Chris Binson. The Attorney general, uh, sends his apologies, as does Cecilia Wade Brown, the mayor of Wellington. Uh, once [00:01:30] again, Celia, uh, was at the opening and spoke at the opening of the whole out games on Saturday. Also, his David and his partner, Dwayne McGuane. The David is the ambassador to the United States is unable to make it this morning. Uh, last night he hosted, he and Dwayne hosted a small function at the, uh, his residence out at lower hut, which several from the conference attended. Um, I understand the reason why they're not here today is Dwayne [00:02:00] wouldn't let David out because they hadn't done the dishes. So, um, but we have got the wine stains out of the carpet. We think it was the Canadians who did that. So But we have also some welcomes today. Uh, I'd like to welcome, uh, Ethel Murray from G. Lisa, uh, as a representative of Lisa, Glees is the overall governing body for the, uh, out games. Uh, and in our audience, just like to acknowledge, uh, Jenny Rowan, the mayor of [00:02:30] um, who were also MC at the opening. Um, I had some association with Jenny a few years ago in my paid work. Not in this work. In my, unfortunately, in the, uh, there'd be several, uh, unfortunately, some suicides of young people. Um, and, uh, I worked with Jenny, and you could just tell it was a lesbian. As the mayor, she was so practical. It was just a a can do attitude. So it was fantastic. So, Jenny, and [00:03:00] thanks for all your work, Uh, and great to have you here at the conference. We acknowledge, uh, today the that over the last several months in New Zealand and in the world through, um, natural disasters, there has been loss of much life. So we want to acknowledge those that have particularly travelled up from Christchurch to join us to be as part of the conference. Uh, but also to recognise that some, [00:03:30] for instance, of the diversity liaison officers from the police who had hoped to be here over the week are actually doing amazing work down in Christchurch. So to acknowledge, also that, uh, we want to acknowledge, um, Doctor Hiroyuki Tai from Japan. I don't know. She had hoped to try and still make it so not Not here yet? Maybe, uh, but just once again, to acknowledge. And also just to acknowledge, of course, Kevin Hague. In terms of the the the disaster and the loss [00:04:00] in the West Coast last year and and how that has felt our community. Um, just over 25 years ago, Um, I remember being in Cathedral Square. I was only three at the time. Um uh, and we left on a march on a cold Friday night, and it was a march saying that [00:04:30] it was time for change in our law, Uh, in terms of the decriminalisation of homosexuality. Now, I've been a bit of a student radical, been at Canberra, and I'd been on many marches 81 through the tour, and I'd left that that square many a time to march on a whole lot of issues. But in that moment, I felt an incredible sense of vulnerability because I was making a statement about myself. [00:05:00] And yet also in that moment of vulnerability was this tremendous moment of strength, strength in terms that, uh, we were collectively staging and claiming our voice. Uh, and to take a stand is a political act. An individual person coming out often is a political act, and it is an act that we take a risk in. [00:05:30] And so I just want to acknowledge that, and and my hope is that the passion and the creativity that happened during that campaign as we mark 25 years this year in New Zealand of the decriminalisation of homosexuality that that spirits, uh, be with us during this conference. However, we also want to acknowledge that time to take a stand. It is a huge cost, for instance, to acknowledge [00:06:00] David Kato from Uganda, the activist this year who was killed. There are many others, of course, in our whakapapa of of people who have lost their lives because of willing to take their stand and and and to acknowledge those I just also want to acknowledge. A year ago, I was organising another conference on, uh, men and suicide. It was the first ever national men's only gathering, and on the [00:06:30] it was a year today, about 11 o'clock at night. Uh, as I was preparing for the opening of the conference, I received a phone call from Sydney to say that a friend of mine had killed himself. Uh, that was one of three deaths of significant friends of mine who killed themselves last year. And I just want to acknowledge that because suicide is a major killer in our community, and so therefore and [00:07:00] that those deaths is not necessarily that that someone violently killed them. But discrimination, prejudice, internalised stigma all contributed to poor mental health outcomes for those people. So what I would like to invite us to do is to stand for a minute's silence, to honour all those who have been part of our who have stood up and at times have experienced [00:07:30] and suffered and have now who are now no longer with us. Please join us in a minute's silence. Thank you. So here we are at the conference, Um, and I'd like you to share it with you. It's in the front, the vision that we have for this conference, and and for the future that for all [00:08:00] people, whatever their sexual orientation, sex or gender identity is one to be able to live in inclusive societies with equal access to the resources and services that will ensure the physical, psychological and spiritual well-being of themselves and their families that we all were able to fully participate in the economic, social, cultural and political development of our societies and our communities, and enjoy equal protection under [00:08:30] the law from discrimination and violence. That is, that the dream and the vision that we put before you to today for this conference organising this conference, the analogy I want to use. It's a bit like the organising a gigantic pop up dinner. And so we were thinking, Is we? We sent out an invitation and we have a full conference. 3/330 [00:09:00] people will attend the conference over the three days as part of just under 1400 people who are attending the second and Asia Pacific Art Games across the whole week. 23 countries are represented here today and there will be over 100 and 10 presentations. So we've got a big menu. We just had to make sure there was enough salads, enough desserts. And so the programming day when [00:09:30] we had to put it all into the streams was an interesting Saturday. Uh, but we fitted as many of you in as possible and and what we had was we had a huge banquet, but Of course, we've done our bit. We've set up the place. The real success of any kind of gathering is the people and the conversations, the stories, It's the telling. It's the sharing. And as has happened at the on, um [00:10:00] uh, Saturday we're now all we're all one. And so therefore, at times there will be sometimes some tears and some anger, but this is a safe place to share that also, we can share it all as we tell our stories and learn from each other. So this is the banquet. Enjoy it to each other. Look after each other. And welcome to the second in Asia Pacific Out games. Thank you. [00:10:30] I'd now like to introduce and welcome, uh, Roslyn New Noonan, the chief commissioner of the New Zealand Human Rights Commission. The commission have been fantastic in supporting this initiative and is one of our partner organisation. Greetings. Welcome. [00:11:00] [00:11:30] I've opened my greetings with the words from a Maori proverb. It goes like this. If you pluck out the heart from the Flex bush, where will the bell birds sing? [00:12:00] And if I ask you what is the most important thing in the world? It is people. It is people, It is people. And I think that proverb to me always reflects the fundamental human rights values to be found in every culture and society. To you, the esteemed visitors who have come to support this the out games in this conference, [00:12:30] um, welcome to you from the Four Winds of Asia Pacific. Welcome to this Human rights conference, which is Barry has said is to discuss what we still need to do to achieve the full realisation of human rights for people of all sexual orientations and gender identities. And did the few words of Maori that I spoke. I ended with another probably [00:13:00] which says, observe to gain enlightenment, participate to feel the essence. And I think that's a wonderful A wonderful, um, proverb for this, uh, conference, Your Excellency Excellency Ambassador, A van der of the Netherlands. I want to acknowledge you for the wonderful support that you and your country have given to this conference. Um, Grant Robertson, [00:13:30] who's the, uh, member of Parliament for Wellington and to the other very illustrious members of the here. Greetings. I want to also especially acknowledge those of you who are here from Christchurch. I bring apologies from Commissioner Richard Tankersley, who in fact first bought the out games to the commission table. Um, but he's, uh, very much committed [00:14:00] to the Community Health Service, which he's involved in, and had to make the difficult decision that he couldn't yet leave that work and come. But I know he's missing this, and he said they wouldn't. You know, there was nowhere else he'd rather be than here. And I want to acknowledge those from Japan who have lost so much in the terrible tragedy that that country faces on behalf of commissioners and staff from the Human Rights Commission and I, I think you're going to meet if you haven't already a number [00:14:30] of them over the next few days. Um, for us, it's been a great It's a great privilege and pleasure to be welcoming people from over 23 countries of Asia Pacific, uh, to this conference, with its timely focus on the Yogyakarta principles and its aim of contributing to the movement to make human rights a daily reality for people, whatever their identity across the Asia Pacific and as well as those from the New Zealand Human Rights Commission. Um, we've [00:15:00] got, uh, colleagues from other commissions across Asia Pacific. And I have seen, um, Commissioner his from Indonesia come in. And I want to especially, um, welcome her, but those I think, um, I've got a colleague from Malaysia, uh, from India, Nepal, Um, and perhaps a number of others. So they are here as highlighting the commitment that national human rights institutions throughout Asia Pacific [00:15:30] have made to finding ways to advance the realisation of rights for people of diverse sexual orientation and gender identities. And it's great to have them here in the long worldwide struggle to affirm the rights of every person, whatever our sexual orientation or gender identity. The Asia Pacific region has much to contribute, partly because of the rich diversity of sexual [00:16:00] orientation and gender identities within the region, including the place of, uh, traditionally in Maori communities and the position of and a across the Pacific. And because it was the birthplace of the Yogyakarta principles in 2006, those principles are a universal guide to human rights which apply to people, whatever [00:16:30] our sexual orientation and gender identity they apply. They affirm binding legal international human rights standards with which all states must comply and they promise a future, in the words of the Yogyakarta website, um, where all people, born free and equal in dignity and rights, can fulfil their precious birth right well across our region. [00:17:00] Not a single country has yet realised that wonderful vision. And so we know that discrimination and violence against people of diverse sexual orientation and gender identity is a serious problem in many of our countries. People of diverse sexual orientation and gender identity, whether actual or perceived, have faced execution [00:17:30] or extrajudicial killing, torture, rape, arbitrary detention, unfair trials and, in the case of women, forced pregnancy and forced marriage. These human rights violations occur at the hands of state officials and authorities and at the hands of non state actors, often with the actual or implied complicity of state actors and often with impunity. And so, [00:18:00] at this conference, we need to think about our specific responsibilities to change that. There's the role and responsibilities, as I've mentioned of national human rights institutions, um, across the region, who are and must be defenders of the human rights of every person within the borders of the countries that they belong to we've the role of civil society. [00:18:30] So that's all of us. Must never, never be underestimated. Because without the sort of marches, the campaigns without individuals, often small, vulnerable groups standing up and saying these rights are ours, too, and we are no longer going to allow them to be denied. Nothing changes. And, of course, government. The state [00:19:00] has a primary responsibility to promote and protect the rights of everyone within their boundaries. And they have responsibilities to support each other in the promotion of those rights in the region and beyond internationally. The conference This conference is taking place at a at a very crucial time in the United Nations Human Rights Council. I think at the last count, some 58 governments [00:19:30] had signed up to a statement, Um, advocating, uh, for the promotion and protection of the human rights of, um, gay, lesbian, bisexual and intersex and trans people. And that's a very, um, important initiative. Uh, because when states start to speak to each other about these issues internationally, um, then we know that you can begin to see movement at home. [00:20:00] And alongside that statement, national human rights institutions from around the world, US will be following that statement with their own statement of support for states that are prepared to stand up and advocating stronger measures at the international level, but also committing ourselves to further action at the national level. And again, I hope out of this conference we can ensure that more countries [00:20:30] from across Asia Pacific join that statement at the United Nations. So in closing and wishing you well for a very instructive, constructive and also fun conference, because I think there is a lot to be celebrated and not least just in being able to come together and share experiences and gain energy and support from each other, I want to acknowledge that here in [00:21:00] New Zealand, while much has been achieved thanks to people like Barry and I think some former colleagues of mine who are here commission former commissioners Warren Lindbergh and Joy Lio, I just want to mention, uh because they were driving, um, inspiration for the public inquiry that the commission did on the discrimination experienced by transgender people, which I think was the first such inquiry anywhere in [00:21:30] the world in which we published as to be who I am and so I want to emphasise the importance of people pursuing the issues of fundamental human rights wherever they are. And you will see that we've provided your packs our own assessment of the extent to which the rights of gay, lesbian, bisexual and intersex and trans people are recognised and respected here in New Zealand. [00:22:00] And we've identified in that what more needs to be done. So we're looking forward to working with you and to gaining inspiration for you for the next stages to full legal equality here in New Zealand. So can I just conclude by wishing you a wonderful conference? Um and, um, I've come down from Auckland this morning, and I've tried to bring some sunshine with me, which, just following, you know, slowly behind should be here by lunch time. [00:22:30] Thank you, Rosine. I now have the pleasure of introducing uh, Ari Van Der, the ambassador to the Netherlands, the Netherlands of those who have, uh, generously funded this conference and that we were able to provide 15 full scholarships, travel scholarships and accommodation scholarships [00:23:00] for people from the Pacific to attend this conference, as well as to sponsor our, uh, one of our speakers, Boris Dietrich who will you will be hearing from during the time. Um, it's interesting to note that in the time of that is that the New Zealand government has, in fact, has been cutting its, uh, Hu, uh, human rights [00:23:30] funding in the Pacific And that, uh, once again, So, uh, Grant and Kevin, we look forward to hearing from your political party manifestos and about how you will be funding human rights and the link between development and human rights. Uh, as we move it, it's an election year in New Zealand. We're gonna make the most of it. Uh, but welcome, Ari who, by the way, won a gold medal on Sunday for the five K run in [00:24:00] his age group. That was the 20 to 25 year olds. Sorry. These are my few Maori words I learned since I'm in New Zealand. And that's about six months ago when I presented my [00:24:30] credentials to the Governor General. Uh, may I, uh, correct a few small things of the previous speeches? Or maybe to add a few important things to what was said in the first place? Here stands a second representative of the Queen. My, [00:25:00] my original title is Her Majesty's ambassador, and that is my second correction. I'm not a high commissioner. A very warm welcome to all participants of this conference and may, I say, [00:25:30] is that all protocol is duly observed. Allow me first to convey on behalf of my government our our deepest sympathy and solidarity with the people of Christchurch and the whole of New Zealand. We have been deeply touched by the devastation caused by the earthquake [00:26:00] on the 22nd of February. Our thoughts are with the victims, the loved ones and all those affected by this terrible tragedy. And a few days ago, a new disaster has struck the Pacific Rim. We were shocked by the images caused by one of the largest earthquakes in history that had hit Japan and the tsunami [00:26:30] that followed. Our hearts go out to the people and communities in Japan. It goes without saying that these disasters already had and will have an impact on the second Asian Pacific Out Games this year. Dear participants. My government is one indeed of the [00:27:00] co sponsors of the Art Games 2011. Our support was primarily meant for the organisation of this conference reviewing the human rights situation in relation to sexual orientation and gender identity in the Asian Pacific region. But I'm also proud, as already was said, that we were able to provide 15 scholarships to people from the Pacific [00:27:30] to participate in this conference to give the conference more regional ownership. For many amongst you, our active support for promoting universal protection of human rights and fundamental freedom for all may not be a surprise. The Netherlands has a long tradition of tolerance, which is already which is readily associated with [00:28:00] the acceptance of homosexuality, women's rights, abortion, same sex marriage and the liberalisation of euthanasia and soft drugs. A major attraction involving tolerance is, for example, the coffee shop. Not because of the quality of the coffee, I can assure you. Some incorrectly conclude [00:28:30] from this that the Netherlands is a true drug paradise. However, only the sale of soft drugs is tolerated on the principle that a complete ban would not eliminate sales but would make the problem invisible and create more problems. Also, the first same sex marriage took place in the Netherlands almost 10 years ago, [00:29:00] to be precise on April 1st, 2001 and since 2001 following the pioneer example of the Netherlands, same sex marriages have been legalised in 10 more countries, and this shows that there is a clear progress but still slow. Or as Boris Die, who is with us today, said the trend to legalise same sex [00:29:30] marriage is unstoppable abroad. Our liberal tradition is cause for admiration, but I have also to confess as well as horror. In the latter case, the Netherlands is portrayed as a country without moral awareness where no rules apply. Tolerance is also a frequent topic of conversation [00:30:00] in the Netherlands itself. National discussions on whether the country is tolerant enough or perhaps too tolerant are not unusual and becoming more intense lately. The 17th century, the so called Dutch golden age is considered the cradle for this belief and intolerance. At that time, the Dutch republic was the only country in which [00:30:30] freedom of conscience was enshrined in law. Being pragmatic, the 17th century Martians also saw that tolerance was useful. Trade flourishes only in a climate of freedom and mutual respect, and every customer is an individual, regardless of colour or political or religious convictions. So [00:31:00] with the Dutch you have always to ask yourself the question whether you deal with the merchant or the missionary. Ladies and gentlemen, over the past decades, we have seen a number of positive developments in the area of LG TB rights. In addition, key human rights mechanisms of the United Nations have affirmed state's obligations to ensure effective [00:31:30] protection of all persons from discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity. However, around the world, many people still face human rights violations because of their homosexuality, including killings, torture, rape, criminal sanctions and violence. In 85 countries in the world, homosexuality is still considered [00:32:00] a criminal offence, and in a substantial number of these countries you can even receive the death penalty for sexual conduct. In other cases, these women and men become targets of extrajudicial executions like, as was already said happened recently in Uganda. Human rights organisations have expressed concern over a growing a growing [00:32:30] homophobia in certain parts of the world. It may be understandable. UN Secretary General Ban Ki moon said recently in an address to the Human Rights Council that gender identity raises sensitive cultural issues, but cultural practise cannot justify any violence of human rights. he states. When our fellow humans are persecuted because [00:33:00] of their sexual orientation or gender identity, we must speak out. Human rights are human rights everywhere for everyone, he concluded. A joint as already set by Ross, a joint statement on ending violence and related human rights violations based on sexual orientation and gender identity will be delivered at the UN Human Rights Council on Monday, 21st [00:33:30] of March, which is next week. Indeed, 58 states out of 192 have now endorsed the joint statement. It is important to ensure the greatest possible support for this statement at the UN level and I have to underline this. Be aware that there is a counter statement in the make. Many Asian [00:34:00] Pacific states have supported previously the LGB initiative but have not yet supported the present joint statement such as India, Nepal, Samoa, Tonga, Vanuatu, BNG and Fiji. Joint statements provide a constructive opportunity to raise awareness and support in the fight against homophobia. Maybe [00:34:30] this conference can encourage mainstream human rights organisations, France human rights commissions and other allies in countries that have not yet endorsed the joint statement to contact their governments and make their voices heard. And maybe this conference should, through a press release, urge Asian Pacific states to join the statement about ending violence [00:35:00] and related human rights violations based on sexual orientation and gender identity. High visual. The fruitful deliberations. I'm confident this conference will be a success. Thank you. Thank you. Uh, [00:35:30] I just also want to acknowledge at this time the funding that we receive from the American Jewish World Service, the Australia Lesbian Foundation for Justice and the Open Society Institute. All trust from the United States who provided funding for 12 scholarships from Asian countries also to attend this conference. Uh, and then in particular, I want to acknowledge the tenacity [00:36:00] and the passion and the drive of particularly, uh, Jack Byrne. Uh, who made that funding possible? Jack, could you stand up, please? Um um, some days when I opened my email and there was another 10 from Jack, I would just go. Mm. Especially when I'd come home at 7 a. m. in the morning in Sydney [00:36:30] after a a beer underwear party last two weeks ago. Don't go visual. I warned people yesterday about that, Um, but walking into yesterday to Saint Andrews on the terrace. Uh, Hall. Where? Over 70 trans and over 100. 0, my God. The catering bill has just gone up again. Uh, over 100 people, transit and intersex people were there, just made it all worthwhile. So and and to [00:37:00] Sam Orchard also, who made all those travel arrangements for us, it was just a fantastic experience. Also. Just want to thank Margaret Maman, who's here on stage, Who is the minister at Saint Andrews on the church. Have a dyke is a Presbyterian minister who graciously gave us the the hall for that to occur. So, Margaret And now, [00:37:30] uh, it is election. Yes. We have to invite an MP to open things. So who more appropriate than the MP for Wellington Central? Uh, but also, who has been a a strong advocate in terms of our work and supporting not only the out games, but this conference. Uh, but, uh, our very own Grant Roberts. We asked him to come and open the conference, [00:38:00] uh, and are warm as we can be in Wellington today. Pacific Greetings to all of you. Uh, I want to particularly acknowledge Barry and the organising committee and I don't think Barry's quite managed to let you know, But the lovely people who are in the back row, particularly behind us, are all part of the organising committee. So I want to acknowledge all of them now for the great work of those. [00:38:30] I too, Barry, um, was opening my emails with, uh, some trepidation in the last few weeks as we dealt with one or two, immigration issues. And I know that Rosy also was involved in that. And I think it's a lesson for us that we still have some way to go in terms of a good immigration policy in our country can Can I? Also, I also wanted to acknowledge Sam and June Jackson for their welcome. Um, as always they were They were warm and their welcome, although I think Sam's, uh, call for me to keep [00:39:00] this conference straight is, uh, both beyond me and not something I want to do. So, um, I want to particularly also acknowledge my parliamentary colleague, Kevin Hague. Uh, Kevin and I should both be sitting in the Health Select Committee right now, and I think we both prefer to be where we are. Uh Kevin likes to say that he's the gayest MP in Parliament. I don't know what criteria you use for that, Kev. At some point, we may have to have a gay off of some sort. Uh, [00:39:30] I also want to acknowledge a former parliamentary, uh, former parliamentarian and Marilyn Waring. Who's I know you'll be hearing from in the next session. So welcome, Um, to you, uh, Marilyn as well. I think of you particularly actually, at this time of enormous tragedy in Japan and the ongoing, uh, nuclear situation there and the work that you did in that area in past times in New Zealand. So I acknowledge you, particularly today, uh, Marilyn, for that, uh, I also want to acknowledge the ambassador, and, um, thank you again. [00:40:00] I think it's absolutely incredible that we're sitting here today with so many people supported here by the Dutch, uh, embassy. Their commitment to this conference is the kind of thing that every country in the world should think about, how they can support. I'm not sure, New Zealand, and I'm not making this a political statement, particularly I'm not sure New Zealand embassies overseas would be involved in a conference like this in the way that the Dutch Embassy had. So I really want to add my thanks and congratulations to the Dutch Embassy as well. Absolutely brilliant. [00:40:30] And also to acknowledge Ros Noonan and the fantastic work that the that the Human Rights Commission Uh, do as well Can I just say that all of you look fantastic Just sitting in the front row and looking out at the the conference, uh, participants, you are going to have a magnificent three days. The diversity, the depth of talent that is in this room, just how good looking you all are, quite frankly, but it really is going to be a magnificent [00:41:00] few days, and I'm very sorry that I won't be able to join you for as much of it as I would like. I also want to make a particular acknowledgement, as I look at the programme and the depth and breadth of it and the people who are involved, that there are the the groups that are here today. I can't can't even contemplate to speak for or on behalf anyway of of the diversity of people here. But I do want to acknowledge all of you for making the effort to be here for overcoming the obstacles and adversity that many of you had in order to be here. I want to single [00:41:30] out one group in particular who are sitting mainly, I think, towards the front here, which is the fantastic out at work people who have actually, um, merged their conference into, uh, this conference this year. This is the group of people who look after the interests of our rainbow communities within the workplace. So I particularly want to acknowledge you and Karina who I see from Christchurch down the front here as well. So I think, uh, it's great that you've been able to be part of this. I am acutely conscious that that the people represented here today from across our region, uh, are people with a vast range of experiences, [00:42:00] uh, experiences of different legal regimes, experience of persecution on a daily basis, or if not on a daily basis, then on then on a more regular basis than anyone of us would like. I want to reflect today very briefly on what I consider to be something that's happening here in New Zealand, and that is what I consider to be a journey from what I call tolerance to acceptance. But there is a long road to even reach the starting point of that journey. Tolerance. Many [00:42:30] of you in the room today live in societies who those who represent the diversity of sexual orientation and gender identity could not at any way claim that they are being tolerated. There are people here today who are actively persecuted, discriminated against and marginalised, and the situation is obvious around the world. Ugandan gay rights activist David Cato has already been mentioned today. He was killed earlier this year. He was a vocal opponent of the anti homosexual bill before [00:43:00] the Ugandan parliament. His death followed the publication a couple of months earlier in a tabloid of the pictures, names and residence locations of some members of the LGBT community, along with the headline in that tabloid that read Hanged Them. Cao's photo appeared on the cover of that tabloid. He suffered the indignity at his funeral that it was taken over by the homophobic [00:43:30] rants of the minister who was presiding over it. There is a responsibility on each and every one of us to stand up against this kind of thing wherever it is in the world. It is a responsibility at a governmental level, but it is also a responsibility at an individual level. We must stand up against this, [00:44:00] but I briefly want to return back to New Zealand. We can sit now in 2011 in New Zealand and reflect reflect on the list of of rights and recognitions and achievements. A few years ago, the far right in New Zealand politics used to talk about a gay agenda in New Zealand politics. What they didn't realise was that the former Labour MP Tim Barnett had a large document which, actually we used to call the gay agenda quite think it was, too. We didn't get all the way through it [00:44:30] following on from the decriminalisation of homosexuality, and Barry mentioned being, um, on the on the protest march at A at a very young age. I I was at high school, and when I was moving out of home, um, after the end of school, before I went to university, I found in a box I'd clipped out of the newspaper who had voted for and who had voted against the homosexual law reform bill in New Zealand. I don't even remember doing that. I would have been 14 years old when it passed. But these things matter. Those who go before us matter. [00:45:00] And we we can look back proudly on the fact that we have have moved on from the decriminalisation to the Human Rights Amendment Act in 1993 further into into the 21st century, with changes around property law, the Civil Union Act and the 108 pieces of legislation. And I used to be able to recite them that were to acknowledge the passing of the civil Union Act, changes around the way in which the education review office reviews schools in terms of of bullying, birth deaths and marriages, legislation, the Prostitution Reform Act. We [00:45:30] can point to great progress, but I hasten to add that it is nothing like full equality. You've already heard briefly from Roz about the to be who I am, report which details areas we must make progress on for trans people. In the session that follows, you will hear from Marilyn Waring, who, among others, has been sharply critical that we have not got ourselves to full marriage equality. We're still grappling with the process on how to make adoption for same sex couples possible, but great progress has been made. [00:46:00] But to me it somehow represents something of the New Zealand psyche that we've reached a point where diversity is tolerated rather than accepted. We can't be complacent, of course, and I think about earlier this year the burning down of Lindsay Kno and Juliet Lee's business in In um, accompanied as it was by homophobic graffiti and and other threats. We can't be complacent in the face of that, but the difficult issues that remain to be dealt for us here in New Zealand are about accepting diversity, [00:46:30] embracing those who are different and celebrating what that brings to our society. And if I can just get political for one moment, you knew I would. And there was a moment at the, um, the Fantastic New Zealand AIDS Foundation event in Auckland earlier this year, the big gay out where our prime minister attended and isn't it great that the prime minister of a Conservative party would attend something like that? But the prime minister stood up at that event and said that he and his government had been good for the Rainbow Communities [00:47:00] of New Zealand because they had not rolled back any of the achievements of the previous decade. Now, in some ways as you as you are reacting, that's an extraordinary remark. But in others I think it actually reflects a genuinely held view that what he had done was great because he had tolerated the changes and the advances that we had achieved. A true journey from tolerance to acceptance will be one [00:47:30] when those who are coming out at school are supported, where professional rugby players feel that they can be honest about who they are and where even. Maybe one day an aspiring gay politician won't face the constant question. Is New Zealand ready for a gay prime minister? OK, perfect. The kind of agenda I'm talking about now is different, but additional to [00:48:00] the rights and legislative based agenda. It's the agenda my parliamentary colleague Charles shall calls the dignity agenda. It's an extension of the rights that is based on an attitude change that sees difference as a positive. This is a long road, but I strongly believe that it is one that we need to go down to unlock the bigger changes to reach the equality that we're all seeking. I'm very jealous of you today. I will now have to return to the Health Select Committee [00:48:30] and the somewhat tedious, uh, reviews of, um, district health boards that we're going through at the moment. But I hope that you'll spend the next three days listening, discussing, sharing, challenging and inspiring each other. As you move on at your own pace on your own different journeys. I wish you well. And I leave you with the words of WH or perhaps as a spirit to guide this conference. Civilizations should be measured by the degree of diversity [00:49:00] attained and the degree of unity retained. Uh, thank you, Grant. I must admit, when I saw all the red lays, I thought it was a Labour party branch stacking as usual. But but it's great to actually to have out at work here. It's fantastic. Um, [00:49:30] that now, uh, concludes the opening ceremony, which is we're now running late, but well, you know, we're running late. So, uh, I I asked. Now I I'd like to, uh, thank all those to Though we will now proceed straight into the, uh, the the opening plenary. We ask, uh, and welcome Kevin Hague who will chair it. And we ask the three presenters to come up to the front and we'll ask the others to come and sit in the rows. Uh, and we'll take it from there. Thank you.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089414
TITLE: Snapshot 2000 - realisation
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VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: Snapshot 2000; coming out; gay; growing up; transgender
DATE: 1 January 2000
YEAR: 2000
LOCATION: Aotearoa New Zealand, Aotearoa New Zealand, Oceania
CONTEXT: In this podcast compilation participants talk about the moment when they realise they are not heterosexual.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I probably realised that I was gay before the age of 10. Um, never had the chance to order opportunity to explore it, Got married, had kids. And probably a few years into into marriage, when figure didn't work, I started exploring the gay side. Um, marriage ended. My ex-wife has not known about me and never will know. Um, [00:00:30] but my kids do, um, my youngest daughters in the lesbian relationship and quite open about it. Um, the first couple of experiences I had were at a beach, if you want to tell it that way, my knees were knocking. I was shaking. I was sweating. Um, I realised it was wrong, but I loved it. Um, [00:01:00] I got more warmth and affection, and I realised that there's some things that I liked. I've always liked looking at guys rather than women. All my life over I was married. Um, it's much easier now because, um I can do whatever I want and whatever I feel. And, um, life [00:01:30] is so much better because I get warmth, affection, compassion from a person which I can't get from anyone else from a guy that I can't get. Can I get from anyone else. Um, the tendencies are all there. You can't suppress them. Um, you'd walk down the street and you'd automatically look at guys. Um, you'd go to the movies and you'd sort of sit there and dream. Um, [00:02:00] the feelings are there, and they are very, very strong. Um, and you can't do anything about them. I mean, people think that they can overcome it, but you can't. It is just personal feelings and personal perceptions. It's like someone likes one type of car and someone likes another type of car. And some person just we say I don't like either of them. Um, it's just personal feelings and emotions. [00:02:30] Um, I used to go out by myself, and I ended up in a situation once when I went with a guy never looked back. Never, ever look back. I was probably married about 10 years at the time. There are a couple of people that I know who have just completely wiped me and just don't [00:03:00] don't speak to me. Don't have any contact with me. And other people that are straight in the straight world have just accepted me the way I am. Um, circle of friends has changed in the last few years. Um, real friends, which I can classify as real friends, have stayed, and [00:03:30] there are probably very, very few Probably less than five. Um, because your real friends will accept you no matter what you are. And no matter how you are, and that's what I found with my real friends, the rest of them are just, you know, people that pass by the coming out process. I basically tell the people that I feel I can trust and don't [00:04:00] tell the people that won't understand. I realised when I was quite young that I was different. Um, I had going back to my early childhood. Actually. I had, um, experiences and wanted to experiment with feelings that I didn't really understand from from quite a young age. And I had, um I think even before puberty I, I may have this wrong. I don't know. Um, it's a long time ago. I'm I'm [00:04:30] a guy who's 48 now. So, um, you know, we gotta go back a long way here, but I always thought I was different. And as I got older, um, I became aware of of what the difference was the fact that I was gay, that I found boys or men, mostly men, almost always men. Um, I'm not really into the boys or the young guys sort of thing, um, physically and sexually attractive. Um, I grew up in a small town, New Zealand, where that sort of thing was, [00:05:00] um, was not acceptable. Or you tried to fit in, which is basically what I tried to do. Um, at 25 I got married, which was the brightest thing I ever did. Someone who turned out to be a wonderful woman. But, um, things were never quite right. Um, I guess when you live in small town New Zealand, and this was before homosexual law reform, you feel that you have to fit in. And I guess I thought, um, stupidly that by getting married, I would cure whatever [00:05:30] problem it was that helped me. Or I would be able to live a life that people found acceptable, and I'd fit in. Um, this went on. So 10 or 12 years, and I was I mean, sex was purgatory. It was the hardest thing I ever had to do. Um, you know, they talk about people being gay over a spectrum. I mean this purely heterosexual. And they move through a spectrum from from that through to slightly bisexual, across to bisexual, across to fully gay. And I guess I come [00:06:00] in at the gay end of the spectrum. Um, I love men. I love sex with men. So, um, I found it extremely hard. And then it got to a point where I couldn't deny basically what I was feeling. So I started to have sex with me, Um, which, um, I went at it like a demented. I guess so. Yeah. I was in my mid thirties at this stage. Um, and I needed that physical satisfaction, [00:06:30] I guess that you get when you're going and you have sex with me. And so I had all this sort of playing around with guys and doing the dogs and all that sort of thing, things that at the time seemed totally acceptable. Which now, um, I find rather repugnant. Um, things I did that I'm not proud of. Um, a lot of other people would say, Well, hey, that's fine. That's part of exploring your sexuality and being finding the satisfaction, the sexual satisfaction and the physical [00:07:00] satisfaction that you need to keep going through life. To me, it's rather sad. But anyway, that's the situation I found myself in. And then the feelings that I had or the suffocation, I guess that I was feeling being constrained in a marriage that I didn't want. Um, not being really courageous enough to pull my way out of it, um, it just got worse and worse. And I started to suffer physical manifestations where my health started to fail. And then something [00:07:30] happened where I my wife was involved with something that with a friend of hers, and they were going to be spending the day doing something, And I lived in Hamilton at the time and she said to me, Oh, why don't you go away for the day? Just do something different. So I thought, I want to come to Auckland. So I came to Auckland and I got here early in the morning and I thought, Well, what am I gonna do? I don't know anybody here, So I did something that I never, ever thought I'd do. But I, um, picked up a truth newspaper and I phoned a hooker. [00:08:00] I had sex with this guy. It turned out to be really, really good. Um, the first time I think I'd had really satisfying sex, and we started to see each other, and he was an educated guy. Um, he had a degree in business management and all that sort of thing, and he was sort of working as an escort, I guess, to supplement his meagre income to put himself through university. And what have you. So, um, we used to talk a lot, and he got me to read a book called The Road Less Travelled, [00:08:30] which I did, Um, it made me realise a lot of things. And then we talked about how the life that I was living was affecting me, which was fine. I. I knew how it was affecting me. Um, and I came to the realisation that I was cheating myself. And then he turned around to me one day and he said to me, You know, you you realise you're cheating your wife as well. And I said, Well, what do you mean? I said, I've taken at this at this point. I've been married 17 years, and I said, Well, look, I've taken 15 years of a life away from her, He said. I she [00:09:00] deserves to be. I deserves for me to stay with her and see it through. And he said no. He said, You've cheated her for 17 years. He said, Doesn't she deserve to be happy in her own right? To be loved as a woman should be loved. And when I heard that and thought about that, then I realised exactly what I had to do. So, um, I went and saw my wife sat down one day and we had a chat. Well, it was basically a chat. It was very, um, civil. Um, she'd come to realise that [00:09:30] perhaps I might be gay. Um, the sexual side of our marriage have practically died. Um, we had no Children. Um, I guess that was a decision I made early on that I didn't want Children because I knew. I think deep down, it was gonna come a time when, um, I was going to have to be honest about who I was and what I was. And also, I think, um, if I had Children, I felt there would be a stigma [00:10:00] attached to them for what I had done or for the type of person that I was. I realise now, now that that's probably not true. Um, Children are very accepting, and I find in the circles within which I mix where I work, um, and socialise. And what have you that, um, my homosexuality is not is just not an issue. Um, I'm accepted totally. For who I am. I can talk openly about the life that I live. Um, the things that I do, [00:10:30] um, that sort of thing. So, you know, it's really, really cool. But once we had decided to separate and that the physical manifestations of things that were going on, the health problems and that everything ceased. So, um yeah, it came to a point in my life where I was sort of at peace. OK, well, I first knew I was gay when I was about seven. Um, always got on well with the girls, but I always liked the look of the guys thinking I just wanted to be like them, [00:11:00] but it was a bit more than that. Um, I basically didn't actually come out till I was 24. I broke up with my fiance, um, started drinking heavily, started getting into the drugs to cope with it all. Um, but, uh, once I sort of realised what was happening and went to Sydney, which is supposed to be the second biggest gay capital in the world, that seemed to help a little bit, Um, [00:11:30] and once I came out to my family and all that kind of thing, it's such a big relief to me. Um, they didn't deal with it very well. Mum still doesn't deal with it very well. She's known for four years now. Um, I was absolutely petrified about coming out. Um, but a lot of my friends that I was hanging around with were gay, and they were all coming out around me, and I saw how much of a relief it was for them. [00:12:00] So I thought, Well, I might as well do it myself. So I came out at work. I was in the Royal Australian Navy, and that was a big step for me. It was only just, um, legal. Um, So that was one of the reasons I hadn't come out earlier as well. Um, I come out to all my work colleagues and all that kind of thing. And they were really They were really good about it. Um, coming out to my mother at first, that was a bit of a [00:12:30] nightmare. It was over the phone of one thing I wished I'd never done. But, um, she questioned me about it on the phone, and I just said yes. She went silent. Um said she'd get back to me later. She rang me a couple of hours later and told me not to tell her father, so I didn't end up telling about it. I still haven't actually told my father for because of her wish. Um, which is, I think, just as which is harder for her because she hasn't got anyone to talk to, except [00:13:00] for my sister. But, um, she's now moved out of home and all that kind of thing. Um, we still have a close relationship, but not as close as I would like it to be, because I can't tell her everything. I think I quite liked other boys when I was in third class at school. What's that? Seven or eight. Which is a bit young, I suppose. But probably no younger than anybody else. [00:13:30] I didn't do anything about it until I was about 21. Um, in about when I was about 16, I went through that denial period. I'll grow out of it. You read about people being gay, Um, and some sort of adolescent thing. And then suddenly the world of girls opens up, and it's all very exciting. It never happened. The 21 I met a guy that I used to know when I was at school, quite by accident, [00:14:00] and, er I could sense that he was gay and one thing led to another. And then I did nothing for about another year after that. So I was terribly closeted being brought up Catholic. It doesn't help because you go through that guilt trip. Um, anybody who's not perfect in any way is made to feel guilty. And by perfect, it's [00:14:30] It's the the Catholic version of of Perfect. Um, coming out was a different matter. Um, I was out to my friends. I'm still not out at work. I don't see any relevance of being out at work. I just see that as something which is none of their business. Uh, I had quite a number of gay friends I was living in, uh, in Canberra at the time, and, uh, the only people I wasn't out with [00:15:00] were my parents and my sister. And then one day, out of the blue, my mother rang me. She was going through a fairly rough patch emotionally, and she'd been seeing a psychiatrist. Uh, I think she had bipolar disease. It was really bizarre. She was very difficult to deal with sometimes. And, uh, she was naming me for a lot of things that were wrong with herself. [00:15:30] And maybe I was contributing to that. I don't know. And she asked me whether I was gay, and I said yes. And, uh, she just dropped the bundle completely. She didn't want to speak to me again. Ever. Um, and she didn't. Oh, there was once or twice that I tried to make contact with. So I decided to put in a letter and sent her a letter saying, There's nothing much we can do about this. This is how it is. You're not gonna change me. [00:16:00] I have no intention of going to any sort of therapy or or whatever. And if I go if I went to a psychologist or a psychiatrist, they'd probably say, What the hell are you doing here? So she didn't really accept that and didn't talk to me until she died the day she died. My father, on the other hand, was quite understanding. I still see him, and, uh, we visit occasionally. He lives in Sydney. I live in Melbourne. My sister rang me after my mother rang her straight away [00:16:30] and said it didn't change anything. She still loved me as a brother, and, uh, we keep in contact constantly. We ring about every two weeks, and her husband is fine. Um, I don't talk to any of the other family because I don't know. I feel uncomfortable about it. Um, they're very catholic, and I think we see it as some sort of, uh, failure on my part. Maybe I do too. [00:17:00] Well, I knew when, like when I was about eight or nine. When? When? In the changing sheds with the boys. You didn't wanna look at girls? I wasn't even interested in looking at girls. I got on really well with girls. And that's why I always thought that I was gonna get married and everything else but I've never sex sexually attracted to two women as long as I can remember, I was I was engaged to be married for a while for about 2. 5 years to A to A to a woman. And then I broke it off after I thought, Well, this is not gonna work. [00:17:30] And then, um, it was about six months ago that I decided to, you know, I'll just take the the the leap and do it and come out and come back to friends. And I'll come out in Wellington when I move to Wellington because I come from a little country town down south and yeah, it was a funny, funny reaction. So I got most people were pretty alright with it because of where I worked. And most people there are pretty easy going, but, um, yeah, it was easy. When I came out, I felt relieved. But now that I've come to Sydney, City is a lot harder [00:18:00] and a lot of people are a lot more. I don't know, a lot more ignorant. And even though it's a more open place and yeah, I find it a lot, a lot harder now to deal with than I did before. And yeah, it's about it now. I'm just trying to cope with it and trying to get along with it and doing the best I can. I came back to my parents about a month ago in Sydney. They were back in New Zealand down south and I rang them up and we were just [00:18:30] talking and they asked me because I they I wasn't talking about girls. So they asked me if I if I was gay and I got sick of lying to them and I said yes, and they were very, very upset and like my mother didn't talk, she just stood silent at the end of the phone, and then she wouldn't talk to me and she just hung up. And then later on, I rang her about probably 33 weeks after that, about a week ago, and she won't really talk to me much anymore. So my family are very taken it very hard because of my family background [00:19:00] and where we lived very, very conservative town that we lived in. So that was that was the coming out to the parents, which was it's a bit hard, but I expected it. I expected I. I actually expected a lot worse when I came out to them, but, um, yeah, now I'm I'm dealing with a little easier. They I said they've got their own opinions. They can They can think what they like. I said, I my life. Now I just carry on and gotta get over that, And but, yeah, it still hurts, but [00:19:30] there's not much I can do about it. I'll just keep on plodding along and hopefully they come round one day. Uh, how did I feel when I know I'm attractive guy? I probably, um I think I think I knew it from since I was very, very young, Probably like teenagers. I knew it already, but, um, everybody has different background, family and society, especially if you're from why countries supposed to be easier [00:20:00] and and it's usually very, very, very difficult, especially in in Asian cultures. And so most of the people, I think you probably know it and then you just suppress it and you just don't don't do anything with it. Some people even get married, which is very popular in in, you know, wherever you come from, um, for myself, I think I I knew it since I was I was a I was a kid. Um, I didn't [00:20:30] do anything with it. Uh, I was still, like, do whatever, um, society or my family or other people or my classmates and what they do, you know, get a girlfriend and, you know, hang around with them. So I actually got a girlfriend, and, um, we've been, um, sort of seeing each other for quite a long time. And, uh, most of the time I'm with her. We actually talk about getting married. That was when I was in my twenties, [00:21:00] early twenties, and we actually got engaged just because I think it's the right thing to do and and also both of us, our family side are, you know, willing to see that happen. And I kind of go go along with it. But I, I knew the whole time, I I wasn't happy, and it's not really me. Um, so I kind of cancelled the [00:21:30] marriage, and but I had to get away from it from my family and order with the people because I feel like it wasn't right and and I had to find an excuse for, for for both of the family, Um, did have everything ready for me. So I then I, I started to think about, um, going abroad to study that, um, so I decided to go to Canada. Actually, that was the main reason why I did. That is, [00:22:00] um, to get away from my family and and, you know, to find myself. And that was perfect excuse for everybody. So I said I just wasn't ready. I'm too young. I'm not really ready for for everything yet. Then I went to, um, went to Canada to study. And that was the time I really exposed to myself to the to the gay culture. And that was the first time in a in a Western country. And I was free and, you know, [00:22:30] willing to explore. And finally, then I start going to gay bars and and and then just getting to know, know more people. And then I realised, being gay, it attracts men. It's not a mistake, or it's not something wrong. You know, I I'm not the only one. There are a lot of people like they are very confident about themselves being gay. so I So I gain more and more confidence and then realise it is like, you know, I don't have to hide it. So I guess I sort of realised I was gay right from [00:23:00] when I was very young. Um, sort of When I, you know, I looked at a man or a, you know, attracted to him and or looked at a female. And so it wasn't, I guess, And But I guess when I was young probably didn't sort of realise what it all meant to all that. And I actually didn't come out till about two years ago, and I'm 25 now. Um, I guess it took me a while to sort of accept [00:23:30] and come to terms with the fact that I was gay. Um, I'm sort of glad that I am. Now I find that I'm a lot happier, sort of went through a bit of depression and that, and then when I sort of sort of finally came out and that sort of told everyone that I was gay, um, I felt like sort of a bit of weight lifted off me, and I was a lot happier. Um, pretty much my everyone took it fairly well, like my mum already [00:24:00] sort of pretty much knew that I was gay. Um, as did sort of some friends that I worked with, I guess sort of having close contact with me and that I sort of picked up on a sign that I was gay. Even before I sort of said that I was, Um my dad was about the only one that didn't take it very well. It sort of, um, thought that it was a waste and sort of thought that I'd chosen [00:24:30] to come and go. Um, and I couldn't believe that you were born gay, so, um, but he doesn't sort of understand that, so we just I don't talk to him about it at all. He didn't at first. Didn't want to see me at all. Um, but now he seems to have gotten over that One of my friends actually told him up and I think told him off and that I was his only son. And the blah, blah, blah, you know, I should get over it and all of that. [00:25:00] So he does whether influence him at all. I don't know, but he seems to be right about it, but we don't sort of really talk about it. Makes a few crap comments about living a queer lifestyle, and the rest of it just tend to ignore it. Um, everyone else except me for the way I am, because I guess I'm not a different person to who I was before I came out. So I shouldn't be treated any [00:25:30] different. I think you generally get to a stage where you realise. OK, Yeah, I do know I am. And I am accepting that I am. Whereas I went through a stage of denying it for a long time where I thought it's just a phase. I'm not really gay. Um, I suppose as you get older, you you mature and you realise and I. I guess I was a really early age at 14, and I came out to them because I'm by that stage. I had known God for ages for many, many [00:26:00] years, and I just had to tell someone. So I told my best friend and she was kind of like, shocked. She was like, Wow, she didn't know what to do, so we can never spoke about it. And then 23 months later that, like, all built up again. And I was at the stage where I just had to tell someone. So one day Mum was in the shower and I wrote her a note and I said, Hey, Mum, I'm gay and I put it in a slipper. So when she got out of the shower, she put her shoe on, found this note and read it. And from there, um, she kind [00:26:30] of walked into my room and goes, Ah, I've read this note and I'm like, Oh, my God! And we talked and then we cried and talked and cried and talked and cried for hours and hours. But I found that was a really, really good move. And, um, just having someone there that knows for support was excellent. And so, yeah, that was my, like, my original coming up process. And by that stage, I'd logically known that I was, um at school. Though a few months later I had got to a stage where I built up all again and, um, everything [00:27:00] at school is just kind of getting really, really annoying. And I just kind of like broke down in class one day, And, um, from there everyone kind of asked, you know what happened? Why? And so I told everyone. And, um, that's kind of the worst mistake I ever made. And I actually regret coming up at school. Um, like what? Eventually, the, um my counsellor told me I should tell Dad, and I'm like, No. And, um, Mum had just told him behind my back one day, and dad stopped speaking to me for six months, which was kind of hard, but, um, I guess he just needed his time [00:27:30] to get over it because he's a real macho man. He was in the 1st 15, he lost his two front tooth in a fight. He drinks beer and whatnot. Um, but at school, I went to an all boys kind of upper class school, but it's not really too upper class, but, um, just the attitude was there. You had to be macho to rate. Um, you had to play first, you play rugby, and if you weren't, you were different, and you're hassled and people I've never met before would walk up to me in a quad and go Oh, you and, um, it [00:28:00] got to the stage where it was too much and I had heaps of friends living, going to a school near me where my other friends lived. So I changed schools to a coed school, and that's the best move I ever made. I get very little hassle there. I find there's just such a different atmosphere. It's excellent that the fact you've got girls yeah, and there's There's not so much this Mao egotistic thing where, like, you have to be something and, like everyone, just accept you for you. And it's also a very multiracial school. So I mean that I suppose that's another point. That means everyone is different and [00:28:30] they just accept you for what you are. Um, after that, I mean, the introduced me to a lot of gay people. I suppose that also helps me. Um, I had a good friend like that was always there for me when I was coming out and just offered me advice. And I always ask the questions and I mean, I suppose that was really good again having that support someone you can talk to and they can help you through the process of coming out, and then I'm I suppose it's just like a chain. And then he introduces you to more people and more people. And eventually you just get to know a whole lot of people. And you create [00:29:00] a whole group of friends outside, like the abstract that are gay and their support. And you realise you aren't the only one and that you're normal and that there's other people like you genuine, like you. And it's just like, um wow, so yeah, um, but again, school. I mean, coming out of school is like a thing. I regret it. Kind of like I don't know it like, do you or don't you? I guess it's a choice most people have to make themselves, but I don't recommend it at the moment because school is just [00:29:30] ready for it. I mean, teachers didn't know what to do. They they just ignored the harassment. Um, they just ignored the harassment. And, um, I had meetings with teachers and everything, and nothing really happened. Teachers just try to choose not to listen to it, I suppose, and it just got such a hassle. And I'm still like, I know I do get the harassment. It's not as much, but ideally, I suppose it's just better telling a few good friends. And that's all you need to tell. And [00:30:00] you just leave it at that and that you've just got the support there, which is the main thing for you. Um, other than that, like just with parents and that it's just, you know, you just be, you know, when the time is right, it gets to a stage where everything builds up and, you know, the time is right to tell someone, and you just it's just something I don't know how to explain it, But I just was like, Well, I need to tell someone and I did. And I suppose it happens at different times for everyone, because a lot of my friends now are come out at 16, 17, 18 and [00:30:30] you know, they say I came up really early, but it's just something you know, that what has to be done. And I guess you just everyone does it at their own pace. And I just guess I grew up early. I think that some people are born gay. You are not, You know you don't learn to be gay because when I was really young. When I see some handsome guys, I would like get an inaction. But I didn't realise that. You know, I have, like, feeling for guys. Until when I was my first [00:31:00] year in high school, like I only 15. So that's when I started to accept myself as someone who is feeling for guys and not for girls. Um, I'm in the closet, you know, I don't go out, and none of my friends know that I'm gay. So I have to go to the Internet to meet someone you know, and chat room and stuff. And I also go to some porn site, and that really excites me. And I compare [00:31:30] the, um, gay porn and straight porn. And that's when I realised that what I really want, uh, what my sexual preference is. So, um, that's why And then when I met the first guy on the Internet, we had coffee, and then we talk and we had really had fun. So So that's how I realised that that's what I really want. And I won't be happy being with girls. Um, because of my age, [00:32:00] I'm only 19. I'm still in college and my parents. They I don't think I think they will accept me as a homosexual eventually, but not easily so. And they're still supporting me financially. So, um, I'm waiting till I graduate from college and get a job and settle down to tell everyone you know. So I think that's gonna be a big thing, [00:32:30] but I am gonna tell them eventually because my mother is always expecting me to marry someone and have kids and stuff, so I think that's gonna be a big disappointment for her. But I have to tell her because I won't be happy if you know if I do what she wants me to do. So I think I first realised I was gay. Um, probably when when I was in my sort of late, single figure years, I would guess, probably 89 and into 10, I realised that the feelings that I had for [00:33:00] for for love and romance and and my first sort of sexual awakening were not for people of the opposite sex. They were for people of the same sex. And, um, thanks for having a fantastic family upbringing. Uh, from what some people would call a broken home My parents were separated when I was very young. I was very close to my mother and her new male partner, and I didn't have any problems with that in myself at all. That's not to say that I came out to my my parents at that age. I didn't actually come out to my mum [00:33:30] till I was 18, 19 years old, which is what, um, 10 years later. But just knowing that the the support was there. And I think in reality your parents always really know whether their child or you know son or daughter is gay or not, I think that it's a it's It's a lie to say I didn't My mum never knew or my dad never knew because I think deep down they do. It's the same as the the husband who's having an affair, or the or the wife who's messing around in a lunch break with a Diet Coke break. They you just know you know something's wrong. But when it came to coming [00:34:00] out to my mother, which was kind of enforced on me at the time, because it was I was in my first, uh, gay relationship at 18 19 years old, and I lived in London, which is the capital of England, and my my mum and her partner lived in Cornwall, which is a region, uh, some sort of 250 miles away, very rugged and windswept. Um, it was a It was a long way to go, and it was a long journey to take being forced into it by a boyfriend who was determined that I should come out to my parents and family before he could truly love me. [00:34:30] And when it's your first same sex relationship, it's the You don't know what the rules are because the whole of your upbringing is based around, uh, the heterosexual ideals and stereotypes of what the good relationships are and how they work. So when you're suddenly thrown into something that you really want very much, you don't know the rules and how how the game is played. So I accepted that as the norm and travelled down to Cornwall to do the do the deeds and to come out and be honest with my my family. And it was over Christmas, and I remember the precise moment vividly we were watching JFK, the Oliver Stone movie [00:35:00] on television. And ever since I was a very young kid, I think it was to do with the separation of my my mum and dad. Er late at night, I would join my mother on her bed, not in her bed, under the covers. She would be under the covers, and I would just sit on the side of the bed and we watch telly together for a little while and have a chat. And then I'd go to bed and you know, we'd all go to sleep. And I just remember sitting there. And I think there's a moment when er, Kevin Costner and sis space have a row er, because the family's falling apart in the movie. And I just said, Ohh, God, I'd love to have kids And my I remember my mum saying, But you will have kids, [00:35:30] won't you? And I said, Well, I don't know. And it was that sort of. Then you get that fundamental moment where you don't quite know what to say. And there's a pause that fills er build a gap as as long as a lifetime. But in reality it's probably a nanosecond, and my Mum just said, Is there something you want to tell me? And I said, and it was vivid, as opposed to the first person I said in the third person your son is gay, to which she said, Fantastic news. That's fantastic news. I'm so glad you've told me. As long as you're as happy as you can be and you're as safe as you can be, it really [00:36:00] doesn't matter. And that was it. There was no throwing plant pots across the wall and soil falling everywhere. There was no red wine grasses being smashed. There was no Your father never wants to speak to you again. It was that simple. And the feeling of coming out and and having that final boundary of honesty confirmed and brought brought together was more uplifting than I think anything I've ever done since. Or anyone ever told since, because when you're truly honest with the people that love you, it's when you can truly be honest with yourself. The first recollection [00:36:30] that I have of of being attracted to men, which probably sounds a bit considering that I know plenty of stra identifying men now who've had, like mutual masturbation experiences with other men, and that's all it was. But for me, it always stuck in my head. It's been more significant than that. But when I was eight and I had been put in for six months at a a hospital, it was called the Xavier Home for Crippled Children, which sounds more imposing [00:37:00] than it really was. But I was being treated for asthma. But some of the other Children there were kids with real problems like thalidomide, babies and such. But the asthmatics tended to be a bit privileged, and you're a bit more mobile than the other kids you didn't have a wheelchair to worry about. For example, I remember, um, one of the other Hispanic kids, John and I, and we had an arrangement where, um, she used the roof at night. [00:37:30] One would get up because we had a dormitory that was quite secure, like the nurses would only sort of tuck them into bed and then you'd see them in the morning. But get up, go to the loo. And if you wanted the other boy to come in, he'd cough, which I've since found out, is not far off. What happens in bee culture, but and we just feel each other's dicks and balls, and I just remember it feeling really special and [00:38:00] very enjoyable. That happened several times when I was in the Xavier home, and I don't think I had, like, physical contact again then with another man until I was probably like, 16, 17. Basically, it's been something that I've always sort of felt, you know, Um, I never felt like I was anything different. You know, I've always been interested in boys, you know, from [00:38:30] a very young age. Um, I used to collect pictures out of magazines, and I like the teen magazines like Smash Hits and all that sort of thing. I used to collect the boy pictures and stick them in a diary and hide it from my mum. I used to stick it in this little G and put it in. Um, put it on my bed. Believe it or not a place to put it. My mum might have found it at some stage. Um, yes, and I sort of started dancing and doing entertainment type stuff, singing and acting when I was, like, nine, and that [00:39:00] brought me out of my shell. A little more. Um, and it was actually I had a performance one night. Um, and I had to wear this really bizarre chequered costume and there was some guys in the audience that were giving me hassles. They were calling out stuff and, um, from the audience and stuff like that. And then it was actually in the car on the way home where my mother actually said to me, She said, You gotta be careful, You know, you can get yourself into trouble and Ra Ra Ra ra. And it was at this point, um, I think I was, like, 15 [00:39:30] and ah, I was sitting there and I was like, gripping the handle of the car. And I'm just like, Oh, my God. Oh, my God. My was in my throat. My heart was turning 500 times to the minute to the minute, and I just sort of it sort of came out with it. I just it felt right. So and I was nervous as hell. So I just did it. And I said, Mom, I'm gay. And her first response was Are you sure? And I said, I said yes and probably one [00:40:00] of the most empowered comments I've ever had in my entire life. And from there, Yeah, Mom and I That was, like, about 10 o'clock at night. I think Mum and I stayed up till four o'clock in the morning. Just talking. God knows what we talked about, but we sort of we set up chatting all night. You know, I sort of That was the first time I really poured my heart out to my mum about how I was feeling. Basically, Um, yeah, And after that, I sort of [00:40:30] sort of dealt with the rest of my family. I suppose, Um, I didn't wanna tell my dad to start with My dad and I have never really had a fantastic relationship. Um, I was always a mummy's boy, which sounds a bit a bit, Um well, not not too bad. Um, yeah. I've never heard they had a good relationship with my dad. Um, my brother was a very sports oriented person, so And as is my dad, So they had [00:41:00] the sort of father son thing that was going on, and I'm just like, Yeah, OK, they can have that. And I was a little mummy's boy, which made me the the good cook that I am, I must say, she taught me everything she knows. Um, yeah. So I didn't wanna tell Dad at first. And then Mum being mom, she, um, likes to talk her problems out and, you know, and how she's feeling and and chat. So she ended up telling my dad and my dad was quite shocked. And then Mum proceeded to tell the rest of the [00:41:30] family, my grandparents and all that sort of stuff, and she would just tell me that she told them and I'd be like, Oh, thanks for that. Hm. Great. So, I, I really I had I only had to go through it once, um, when I was 15, so that was good. And I've had the support of my family the whole way. I've had not one negative response from, um from my mom. My dad. My dad didn't understand it at first. Um, and it [00:42:00] took him a couple of years to actually connect with me on the subject. I think we were actually watching a a programme on television one day, and some they had some gay issue on it and I got up to leave the room because I really wanted to watch it and go into my bedroom and watch into my room. And he said he actually said to me No stay. We'll watch it And I sort of looked at my mum and I think I started crying and I was like, Oh, my God! So that was sort of the first time for Dad anyway, [00:42:30] and that would have been about three years down the track. But anyway, back to my, um, back to my family, I said, No negative response from either set of grandparents or aunties or uncles or cousins or anything. Um, when I told my brother, Now this is a very funny story. I told my brother and he didn't believe me. He's like he was such a bullshit artist. And I'm going go and ask Mum, that was my my first sort of response was Go and ask Mum. And then I put out the outrage magazines and I said, Have a look at these. Why would I have these? And he didn't believe me to at at [00:43:00] the start. So as for me, um, I realised, quite soon, uh, I was different from all the guys. Um, in fact, uh, as I was six years old, I noticed that it was the only guy in my school to have just girlfriends. I had no boyfriends. Um, so I I noticed it, and I couldn't say what was [00:43:30] different was me. But, er it does so So I accepted it. And, uh, several years later, when I was a teenager, uh, it became more obvious that something was different than me. Um, my friends, if I may use the words friends, because, uh, I had no real friend at that at that time. I was OK with the other people, but, um [00:44:00] uh, people used to choose me as a friend, but I didn't choose people as friends, and that's quite different for me. So, uh, the people who were which were living with me, um, always speak about girls, and, um, they try to give them notes or things like that Say that girl seems quite wonderful. Er, she's, uh uh, quite nice. I would give her a wonderful note, A or B [00:44:30] or something like that. Uh, and as for me, I would have, uh, give notes to guys to boys, so that was quite difficult at that time, as I used to live at that time in the countryside in France. Um, you know, and it was in the seventies and the seventies, and that time in France, it was, um, quite difficult to speak about homosexuality. In fact, um, [00:45:00] people didn't really speak about it, and they knew it existed. But, um, the images that you had in films or books about homosexuality was quite awful. Um, the people who were supposed to be homosexual were always represented as almost female guys. So when you you were not such a a guy, it was quite, er difficult [00:45:30] to identify yourself with such people. So when you had noticed you were homosexual or feel attracted to to guys, it was, uh, quite hard to to accept it. Still, I accepted it. Um, it became easier when, uh, I grew. I grew up, and, uh, I moved to to Paris, uh, for my studies. And then, uh, well, I quite [00:46:00] dream a lot about living in Paris. Uh, I wouldn't say it is a a game maker, but in fact, when you or you you used to live in the countryside, Paris seems to be something wonderful. So when I began my study in, uh, in Paris, Uh, it was the first time I could live on my own. I have my own room. I have my own things and, uh, be [00:46:30] out of home and living on my own. That's quite that was quite interesting and very interesting experience at the very beginning. Um, I was in, um what do you call it in France? An inter inter? I don't know. There's an English word for it. So, you know, it is when several people are, um, sharing a room where they're, um they are sleeping together. See? So, uh, at that time, at [00:47:00] the very beginning, it was quite hard for me because I was quite afraid to To have to dream to, To sleep with other guys. Uh, I didn't know how I would react. Um, so I remember quite well that at that time, er, I made up my mind so that, um I woke up very early in the morning just to take my shower er on the alone and er not to have to, [00:47:30] um, to cope with other guys and to trust, to see them under the shower. You see, sometimes it's quite difficult not to react. So, um And then, um, I had to cope with the military duty services. I don't know the right word for it, but in France, we have to, um, to spend one year, uh, for a military service. So I did [00:48:00] it. I must admit, it was I was quite afraid also to to do it. See, when you have to share a life with, uh, many other guys from, uh, quite in quite nice, and it's difficult not to not to react. So But, um, everything was quite OK. So now there wasn't quite many problems, and then [00:48:30] I've been able to really live on my own. And that is to say, I had my real my own flat, which was quite awful and wonderful at the same time. Um, and at that time, it was in the middle of the eighties. Um, it was at that time that AIDS appeared and many people were talking about it as a homosexual disease or things like that. So [00:49:00] but, um, the positive effect was that at that time, actually, people could speak about homosexuality, even it was the bad side. But even they began to to speak about it. It was the very beginning. And, uh, at that time in the middle of the eighties, uh, I chose to have a a Mini what is I don't know if you you know what it is. But in France [00:49:30] it is what we can say is a sort of an ancestor for, uh, internet. And, um, that was quite interesting. You could dialogue first, right to people you you had no ideas about. It could be anywhere in France, where the military existed, and the dialogue the writings and phone them and then meet them. [00:50:00] And it was quite interesting. So, of course, there were specific such services for gays, so I used them. And, uh, that was my the first time I really met people who were feeling like me. So, uh, it was very interesting for me. Interesting. And, uh, sometimes, uh, I must admit, I was quite disappointed in as much as, uh, I didn't expect so many [00:50:30] people to be, um, to be sad to be to feel quite ill at ease with homosexuality. Um, I met several people who had already tried to commit suicide several times because of their homosexuality. I was I was quite surprised, because for me, um, it hasn't raised so many problems. I had accepted my homosexuality, even if [00:51:00] I hadn't really lived it at at that moment. Well, I guess I first realised I was gay when I was about 14. You know, when you first get your sexual, um, um, development or something. And, um, I realised I was fantasising about men rather than girls. I felt very confused about that because, um um well, it made me feel a bit of an outcast in high school and all that stuff because all my mates were getting girlfriends [00:51:30] and and I tried to to to go along as well, because there were actually quite a number of girls that that were attracted to me and and approached, made, made approaches. Uh, but I was, you know, sort of fended it off or kept it away. So I For the first, I guess 4 to 5 years, um, I was convinced it was just a phase in puberty and it would pass after I'd I'd grow older. But when I grew older and like 18 19 I, I realised it wasn't [00:52:00] going to be going to pass, and I still hadn't told anybody. And I wasn't even willing to to accept it for myself. So I still had this big secret. I remember. I always thought I carry this this really big secret with me that nobody knew and not even my parents or or anybody and and that actually made me more of an outcast rather than, um, being gay. I guess it's because, um, I I became a bit secretive and a bit evasive. And, um, I didn't [00:52:30] feel like I really was part of, of Of, of the group of friends. Because because of this big secret. And that continued until I was, like, 24 25 when I first came out And, um, all the time between 14 and 24 I never, ever, uh, had either a girlfriend or a boyfriend. Um, never had sex either. I didn't dare, because I it took me that long to to get to terms with myself. And, um, I even, you know, III I was living in Holland, [00:53:00] Um, when I was 14, uh, in in a small town south of the country, about 100 kilometres south of of Amsterdam. And, yeah, it was a very protected, uh, protective family. I guess, Um, we'd we'd been living abroad quite extensively before that. So, I I I'd seen, you know, quite a bit of the world. And in that sense, I was, um, well developed or or or or had an all round view of of, of of life. [00:53:30] Uh, but I guess my my background is a bit conservative, and I felt very much like I had to live up to the expectations of my parents. My father is a very successful businessman in the Netherlands. And, um, he was, you know, he achieved a lot. He was a known figure in In in Holland. And, um, I felt I had to, um, equal that, at least, and being gay didn't fit in that picture at all. So, um, I wasn't happy with that. [00:54:00] And, um, then when I was 18, No, I was 19. I went to America to college and went to to college in Massachusetts for a year. And then I came back to Holland when I was 20 went to business school in Holland. Went through that, and that was very conservative, Uh, very much like the, uh, the Ivy League kind of business school. Um, 14th century castle and stuff. Um, And there appeared to be a lot of homosexuality [00:54:30] on the campus as well there, because it was like a very closed, uh, environment with a lot of, uh, a lot of men. And, um uh, but homosexuality was an absolute taboo. So that sort of reinforced my, uh, my own feelings about homosexuality and, um, and and and confirmed that it was there was something very bad and something you had to be very secret about. So, um, I went through, um, the business school for three years and graduated and went back to to the States and had my first [00:55:00] job in New York. And I lived in New York in Manhattan for two years and again, you know, it was a very, um, um, very accessible gay environment. And I could have easily, um, started experimenting and finding things out. But as I was working for the consulate, which again was a very sort of, um, conservative, uh, environment. Um, I didn't dare to to do anything in and actually, what I what happens? I got, um there was this girl in New York, a Dutch girl that I met [00:55:30] and she fell in love with me. And I really, really loved her for being a mate, and we got along very well. So for the for the outside world, we were a couple, and we show up at all the parties that that we got invited to through the consulate and with the with all the diplomatic corps and all that stuff. And, um, we were like, the perfect couple we were. We were very good friends, and we have very, you know, very common interests. And she was absolutely charming and and and very entertaining to all the people that I had to entertain [00:56:00] in that job. And so we were like, really, really the perfect couple. And and then I remember I. I felt like Oh, God, if only I was I was straight II. I would have found my perfect match. I would marry this girl, But then at one point she, um she wanted more. She wanted sex. And that's that. That was actually the point where I I She was probably the first that I told that I can't get you what you're looking for. And and we have to, you know, we have to stop this because I can't make you happy. I can't. I can't. [00:56:30] Um I can't be the person that you deserve. And we did have sex once, and it was awful. It was absolutely awful because, um, she was taking all the initiative, and I just let it happen because, well, I mean, I thought she deserved it basically. And, um and I was very confused as well. And after that, I just cried and cried and cried because that, I guess, was the point where I realised that I was gay and was not going to change. Going back to grade five, being in primary school and [00:57:00] having school sports, I was always attracted to the male form. Um, I remember there was a time in the change room and they were getting change at school. And I remember looking at, like, one of our PE teachers, and our principal in the locker room is getting changed after having a swim. And I was just fascinated with the Penis and having hair in it, and I thought, Wow, I'm really attracted to this thing, and then from then on it started building up. So when you were as a young child, because I was quite [00:57:30] flamboyant and I was into, like, the makeup and the nails, and I was all camped up when I was a little boy. Then I got to about high school, and because I was living in the West, it was quite difficult coming out, especially having the real macho wild boys, even though that I was a European boy. I found it quite hard, got to express myself. And at the age of 13, I got into dance, and I wanted to be like a young talent time and [00:58:00] I been dancing now since I was 13. I'm 22 years of age and all through dancing. I was very scared to come out. Um, just in case, because it was all competitive work. I was very scared, Um, to about year 11. I was still haven't come out, but I was slowly coming out because I was doing painting and I wanted to become an artist, and through all my art life, I was focusing on the male form. We used [00:58:30] to have life drawing models coming in. I used to sit there and try to focus, and I enjoyed painting and drawing male nudes. From then on to about year 12, I met one of my friends and then she was a lesbian and we decided I used to have girlfriends. I had a girlfriend for six months. Um, I was intimate with her, but I didn't have any sexual fantasies to towards her. I couldn't, in other words, get it up to have [00:59:00] intercourse with her. But we kissed and cuddled, and I really liked her. She was a very attractive girl. She had, like, long blonde hair with great breast, and we used to go up to the club. Um, we used to go down to King Street, which is one of the public clubs called inflation, and we stand around and then slowly, slowly, I sort of met this lesbian friend of mine, and I thought she knew I was gay and I was in denial. No, I'm not gay. Don't even mention it. So [00:59:30] we ended up going to a club one night, and I wanted to try kissing a boy and going to this club like walking into three places which is in Melbourne, but it's closed down now. It's called The Market walked in and I thought, Oh, my God. I was expecting him to walk around in the nude, but they weren't They were jumping around to this techno music and I got into the podium because I was a dancer doing the competitive work. Um, a guy confronted me and I was really [01:00:00] scared, and I sort of said, No, I'm not interested. And then I went up to my friend and I said, Oh, you know, um, are we gonna pick up tonight the lesbian girl that I was with and she said, Oh, no, I don't think so. I'm too we all too ugly to pick up all these beautiful people. And then from then on, I was like, Oh, my God, I'm too ugly. I'm too ugly. So he came up to me again, and I remember having a star on my right cheek, just a little glitter star that can get from the safe way. It was all camped up just a little with a little sparkle, and he said, Oh, no, get [01:00:30] rid of that So he flicked it off my eye and Then I kissed him and I was there with one of my best friend and my brother. Um now, my best friend had big, strong feelings for me. She was, like, in love with me. Why don't you give anyone else a chance? Not me. And after kissing this guy, I lost my best friend, who I adore and we were always close together. Then from then on, I started realising my sexuality [01:01:00] My art was very influenced. I was very flamboyant. It came out into my dancing where before I was too scared to do a move Where now I'm just like, let everything go. I am who I am. And I'm really happy of coming out because coming from a religious family being also Greek, it has affected me, especially with family, where I confronted my mother and I told her that I was gay and she absolutely went ballistic. She's like, [01:01:30] um I prefer to see myself dead buried to see my son holding hands with another man. Um, but I sort of confronted her and said, Listen how this is my life, but, uh but I don't rub it in with her. I'm still living at home at the moment and working. Um, I don't really flaunt any guys. I don't bring any boys home. I've had boyfriends. I've had several different boyfriends, but I don't think she's ever met any of them. And if she has, we [01:02:00] haven't done anything to show her that that was my man that I was with. And I'm just happy for coming out and being the person I was. And then I was a, I guess, about 10 years old, and it was summer. And the boy across the street, his name was Bobby Mantel. I saw him with his shirt off in jeans, [01:02:30] and I was stunned by the build he had. He was about 12, I would guess a little bit older than I, but a deep tan and a muscular chest besides being very handsome, and it was the first time that I was of a conscious of having erotic feelings toward somewhat of my own sex, And, uh, I never got to tell him that or to do anything with him. We were [01:03:00] just friends, but I always did try to, um, you know, see as much of him as I could because I just thought he was beautiful at that time. Of course, we're talking a lot of years back. Nobody really. At least I didn't know what being gay was. And, uh, I just knew that you were supposed to if you were a male like girls. And so I just dismissed it. And a few subsequent [01:03:30] experiences that I had like that through the years. I also just enjoyed them for what they were and and, uh, got to chase girls like every other boy and go out with girls and eventually got married. And I have to say that I did love her, and I did have exciting sexual times with her. So I think that what I was hoping for was [01:04:00] I would grow out of my desire for men also. And, uh, it didn't happen that way. Of course, the older I got the more attracted to guys I was and then seeing some of the more erotic magazines on the newsstands that were so famous and, uh, in those you know, I I in those magazines, I found [01:04:30] out that there must have been an awful lot of other people like me far more than I ever thought and I started buying those magazines and I started getting excited by the models in the pictures. You know, athletic Model Guild and places like that, mostly from California at the time, male physique and and muscle to one of my favourite Maga magazines, Law of New York. If you know any of those. And [01:05:00] of course, doing that while being married, I had to eventually get to a point where I just decided. I guess this is the way I am. I now know that I must be bisexual, and I just accepted the fact and knew that I had to hide it from everybody. And, of course, the older I got I seemed to go more to males, Uh, rather than females. And eventually, [01:05:30] after many years of marriage, my wife came home unexpectedly from work sick. And I didn't hear her come in because we had a a four level er house and I was up in the office and she heard me on the phone with another guy and she knew, uh, right away. Uh, you know, that, uh, things were were the way they were. And when I told her she [01:06:00] being very religious, decided that as much as it would hurt her, she'd have to divorce me because she couldn't share me with a man or even have that thought. So I was divorced. I figured I she felt that I had betrayed her. And I felt that if she really feels that way, I I shouldn't ruin her life more than perhaps I had already done. And with three Children, [01:06:30] I realised I was scary when I was 15 years old, actually. And it was it wasn't an easy thing for me. I always knew that, uh, I was gay. I just didn't really want to deal with it. Um, I just I. I wanted to get as far away as I could because I didn't know much about it. I grew up in a very small town, And, um, it wasn't something I wanted to do with. And one day I was watching, um, a TV programme and I [01:07:00] they were talking about gay teens and they were coming out, and I could identify with so many of these kids, and it really helped me to realise that, um, it's it's not something to be ashamed of or it's not something that you should have to hide or anything like that. So that really, um, was actually my starting day in the summer, Uh, when I was 15 years old. And, um, ever since then I was dealing with it. And when I was about 16, I got very comfortable [01:07:30] with it, and it took me a good year to be able to, um, get used to the idea and get used to, um, being able to realise the fact that, uh, I was attracted to men and, um, how I was going to actually bring up to friends and family, if I would ever. Um, just a lot of questions were going through my head, and, um, I went through, um, a time where I just kind of wanted to do, uh, go through it alone. And I didn't [01:08:00] want to have to do a whole lot with talking to anybody about it. Kind of have a self discovery time for me. And later, I just wanted to see what other people had done and what their previous histories were. And they what they what they had done as far as telling the parents, uh, teachers, friends, whoever, and, um, so I did. I started attending a support group, and, um, I got a lot of support from them finding out how [01:08:30] some of them came out to different people in their life. That meant something to them. And, um, realising that somebody means something to you that, um, then they'll really mean something to you. They'll usually accept it and, uh, be a part of your life. I don't know. And be a part. Be a part of who you are. I've never been able to, like, actually give a good answer. For when? When I first realised I was gay, um, it [01:09:00] was just sort of, I don't know. I just I just always was And you know, whether or not I knew how to verbalise that or whether or not I even knew that, like, I necessarily had sexual feelings towards people. I, I just I don't know. It was just always there. Somehow, um, I grew up. I grew up in a really, a really, uh, really Christian environment. And when I when I actually did start to to hear and like, I don't know, people would always be saying, you know, it's just like [01:09:30] so evil you know, you hear about these evil facts somewhere, and I'd and on one hand, like I felt really excited about it. I was like, Wow, you know, there are people out there that, like, feel the same thing that I do, but at the same time, it was presented in a way that, like, it was it was really a bad thing, and I should be so ashamed of it. And it took me a long time to be able to sort of break from that idea. Um, and actually, part of part of being able to do that was I had to I had to sort of change my whole belief system. I had to actually get out of Christianity for a while, to be able to, [01:10:00] to have a an unbiased perspective on myself and just my own values. Um, and I, I don't know. That was that was really a very interesting time. That sort of happened a little bit starting in ninth grade. Um, and I was spending a lot of time, like just by myself. Um, I. I changed to public school and I didn't really have a big circle of friends to to sort of I. I don't know, Like when you when you change the when you totally change the people that you're hanging out with, you can you can almost change like everything that you believe [01:10:30] you can change who you are, Um, a lot, a lot more easily than you can otherwise Um, And a lot of the time that that I was that I was hanging out by myself. Uh, I was watching public television and they have a lot of, um not necessarily shows that that are I don't know that have, like, a gay agenda or anything but that it's, I don't know, there's not, like a, um a homophobic bias to anything that I saw on PBS. [01:11:00] And if anything, there actually were some some shows. I don't remember what they were called anymore. Um, but they were actually like gay news shows, and that just totally blew me away. I. I mean, being able to see something like that and just knowing, like, you know, it's it's OK to be gay, and it's not an evil thing, and you're not going to be banned to hell if you you know, if you are gay and they had, like some really cool, interesting debate shows about, um um, just religion and and homosexuality and talking about, um oh, what's [01:11:30] it called? Dignity. Um, I think I think that's what it's called, like a, um, a group within the Catholic Church. Um, and I, uh I just being just being exposed to that, um, really helped me just feel more comfortable with myself. And I think that sort of made it possible for me to, like, start talking openly with some of my friends about that, Um, one thing that was really interesting. Um, I. I was taking German classes at a community college up in Dallas for a while. [01:12:00] Um, and I was I was taking all the classes from the same professor. She was actually from Germany. She was really cool. Um, but we were talking about, um, just being gay. Um, it just came up in class one day, and she was she was just totally blown away by, like, the whole concept of coming out. And, um, she she was telling us, like, one year on national coming out day, some guy was over at dinner and he just, like, felt it was necessary to tell her that she was that that he was gay and she was I mean, I mean, [01:12:30] she didn't care. I mean, it was no big deal at all, but, uh, just like the whole phenomena of that, she couldn't understand it. She was like, So I'm I'm straight, you know, like, WW. What of it? You know, it was I don't know. It was just really cool. II I I don't know. I just think that's such a such a like, healthy, healthy thing. I think it would be so cool if, like, it was no big deal if, like, nobody ever had to come out because or nobody had to, like, actively, like, say, [01:13:00] you know, I'm gay, you know? Or, like, make make, like, a big emotional ordeal out of it. You know, I guess as a lot of people say, I always knew, um, but I've never had a a name for it. Um, I can recall being at school. I can't remember how old I was. I guess young teens, I suppose. And, um, some guy said the word I said, What does that mean? And he said something like, um, that means a guy who like fucking other guys, [01:13:30] and they should be shot. Well, I didn't agree with what he said about being shot, but I certainly knew that that was what I was, that there was a name for it. Um, even though, you know, I've not acted on it. I just knew that I was attracted to, um, men rather than women. So it wasn't until some years later, when I was 19 in 1979 that I I guess I decided to stop [01:14:00] living a life that was a lie and, you know, take the plunge and, um, try and get in touch with some, you know, very gay counselling service. Um, and I thought, you know, that that was one way of sort of getting to know somebody. I just thought the gay community was some, you know, all contained within one pub or something or one meeting place. And that there was, you know, just a few S lazy people, and that would be it. But after being introduced to the gay community, [01:14:30] it was a real pleasant surprise. And immediately, like, I just went out on to, um Oxford Street and was introduced to a whole new world. It was like, this is what I've been missing out on. Even at the 10 to young young age of 19, I felt like, you know, this is where I belonged. It was an interesting feeling, a really happy feeling. And, um, all all I can describe [01:15:00] it as is a feeling of belonging. Um, but, yeah, there's this sort of world out there that wasn't really, you know, known about by the majority of people. Um, but that was that I was part of it, so yeah, I felt part of a larger community and, um, that immediately I just sort of wanted to tell everybody that I was gay. But it was It wasn't always appropriate I. I guess I just told those people who, [01:15:30] um, for me, it was meaningful. Um, like my brothers and sisters. Um, not mum. I didn't feel any need to, um I didn't have that sort of relationship with her where I felt the need to do that, um, so and and still haven't, um and that's my problem. She never asked any questions, and I think she really wants to know. Um, and from then on, it's been, um, something I disclose [01:16:00] only when I really need to. Um I don't think, you know, people don't walk around generally saying, you know what? That that I'm heterosexual or I'm homosexual or or whatever, but, um, if somebody asks or somebody's interested, then it's no problem. Um, all I know is that at that time at that sort of coming out time, I remember it really well, I remember it being one of the happiest times in my life. Um, the the the feeling [01:16:30] of freedom and of, you know, finding who I was, I suppose, or a lot about myself. There was a lot more growth and development and education that came after that. But it was, um I guess, really, and realising that you don't have to leave the rest of your life in a in some sort of way, that doesn't feel really comfortable or it doesn't suit you, and that really isn't true. I realised that [01:17:00] I was gay from, I guess, a fairly early age compared to what I've sort of spoken to a lot of other people that I realised that maybe I was an early starter. It was about the age of 12 when I began to notice, um, my own body and also, um, other people's. It wasn't necessarily men or women. It was both. And then there was a phase where I guess I could have considered myself bisexual. And [01:17:30] that was, I guess that lasted for about a year or two. Maybe the age of 13. 14. Um, there was nothing that directly influenced me. But as I grew older, the attraction to women, I think, just became less and the attraction for men became stronger. And to the extent where eventually I just no longer looked at women. Um, this was a little bit of a shock to me at first, I guess, um, [01:18:00] but it was something that I just assumed would come back, and it never did for me. So I guess I'm still waiting. I have a lot of female friends, and I still get along with women a lot, and actually, I probably get along with them as friends a lot, a lot better than a lot of my male friends. But in terms of a physical attraction, there isn't any other than me being able to notice a woman and saying she's beautiful [01:18:30] or she's very pretty or she's fairly ordinary. I can definitely comment on the state of their looks, but without me thinking that there was any sort of sexual attraction there, whereas with a male body, I guess I can look at a male and think, Yes, he's this or he's that. But there's also the element of whether or not I would be sexually attracted to him. So I grew up knowing that I was attracted to men. But I also grew up in an environment [01:19:00] where I found myself, um, around a lot of homophobic people. My parents were certainly not tolerant of gay people, and I guess being based in the theatre as I wanted to be growing up as a somebody learning, singing and dancing, my parents were particularly paranoid that I would be mixing with a lot of gay people and that somehow they would try and convert me and or approach me or [01:19:30] molest me or whatever they thought they were going to do. None of which ever happened. Even though I was surrounded by a lot of gay people, I didn't actually find any of them attractive. They were all a lot older than me. I was only say 15 or 16 at the time. And so I was definitely around gay men. But there was no, um, threat. There was no try and try and convert me or anything like that. And at the same time, on my my behalf, I didn't feel the need [01:20:00] to approach them or to come out with my own sexuality. So it was something that I suppressed for a long time. Um, that was growing up in the country. And then when I left school, I went to university for four years and I moved to, um Brisbane, which is a, uh, a smaller city in of Australia. But it's still I think it's over a million in terms of its population, and it wasn't until I was 20 [01:20:30] years old, but I finally began to think that not so much that there was a need for me to come out, but that I guess I want to define, um, somebody who I could have a boyfriend and have that sort of intimacy with it wasn't the sexual urges that I, um, was looking to satisfy, but an emotional bonding, I guess that I wanted to have with somebody. So it wasn't until almost until I was 21 [01:21:00] but I had my first sexual experience, which also happened to be with the person that I was my first boyfriend, and so that, um, relationship lasted a year and I was always quite, um, I guess something that's always I've been proud of is that my first sexual experience was in a loving relationship with somebody that I had been friends with for a long time and then was in a relationship for for about 12 months, I realised [01:21:30] I was gay. Probably about 17, maybe, Um, a guy I've met I knew for years was Rob his mate. And, um, one night he stayed over and we were sort of like sitting outside playing spin the bottle as you do with your kids, you know, drink booze and tell dirty stories. And, um, I asked him if he ever thought about being gay and he said no. And then he asked me, and I said, Yeah, sort of. And, um, he said, Have you ever had [01:22:00] any sexual fantasy back eyes? And I said, Yeah, all the time. And then he said, who and I said, Oh, I don't really want to tell you this And she said, No, Tell me And I said, you and he went really? And I said, Yeah, and then he said, Well, to be perfectly honest with you on the phone and I was quite shocked by that because he was the last person I ever expect to to understand. And, um and so we carried on talking and we ended up in bed together. [01:22:30] And then the next morning, I felt so bad, I thought I'd done something wrong and we never talked. We didn't talk about it because we were both so freaked out about it. And so I didn't talk to him for about probably two months after that, and I was in complete shock. And then, um, I used to go to a youth group sort of thing. I wasn't a Christian or anything like that, but a lot of my friends were, and they went to that and I went along, and he used to go to that, too, and, [01:23:00] um and then I saw him there, and, um, we ended up talking, and it just ended up being a sexual thing with that friendship. And, um, one day or one night we got together And, um, I said to him, This can't go on any longer because we've ruined a friendship because of what happened. And, um, we were just using each other for sex, Really? And it was pretty bad. Um, it it really screwed the both of us up because it was [01:23:30] the wrong time in the wrong place. And I've never come out at that stage, and neither would he. And so it stopped. And then I came out to my friends probably about two months after that happened. And, um, when I told my best friend Catherine, I was so scared because I didn't know anybody gay apart from Jodie, a friend. And, um, I told her, and she said to me, um, you're the bestest friend I've ever had. Mike, I love you just the way you are gay, straight. Whatever she said, you're still Mike. It doesn't matter what you are, [01:24:00] And, um, that made me feel so good because I had so much support and coming up to the first person was the hardest. But after that, there were a breeze and, um, the whole time I came out, I made so many more friends because so many more people saw me differently because I was more open and honest with them there without lying or covering up cos they they could tell something was wrong. And, um, I never, ever, ever had one problem. In fact, I had complete bliss And, [01:24:30] um, yeah, I've never had one problem at all. The only thing I really was bad was when I came out to Mum, you know? But she's OK now. She's really good. She doesn't understand it completely, but she knows it's me and I can't change. And, um, I would never be in the other way now. Well, I first realised when I was about 13, but I went through a big denial stage, like where I was in high school. It was like you're not gay and like, if you were gay, you know, you got the best [01:25:00] sort of shit, So I completely denied it from others, and I tried to ignore it myself, and I got to a stage where it was pretty easy and stuff like that. But then, like girls started asking me out and stuff and I keep saying no. And everyone started getting, like, really push, You know. Why are you doing it? Are you or something? It was like all my mates. They were, like, all a big, tough rugby player sort of thing. And they were, like, all had, you know, the really nice ticks and everything. And I hung out with her, like, in crowd [01:25:30] and my, um yeah, I didn't have a girlfriend, and I went, like, two or three years without having a girlfriend. And everyone started thinking, You know what's up here? And your your friends start hassling you and like, and just being sure not many you can buy it, but, you know, you know, it's true and yeah, it just really starts to hurt. So I thought, Well, you know, maybe if I go out with a girl, well, then maybe I will change. Or maybe maybe my feelings can be hidden or something like that. But they never [01:26:00] actually were. So I ended up with that girl and I actually got to the point where I was. I was quite content and like, um, the time when I was going out with this girl was like this guy had a real crush on. And like I, I was like, really good friends with him at the time. And like my girlfriend was like, you know, why do you spend so much time with the money? You spend so much time with me and all I wanted to do was come out and try and ask this guy out because I just wanted to know what he would say, what he'd do if you know, because when you're growing up, you always have this, this picture [01:26:30] of everything, working out perfectly and, you know, being good with someone forever, even if it's not realistic. But and it's like, really hard And like, hm at high school and going to P a would was rather because, like, OK, I was like go in the changing room sort of thing and like and I have the heads down, you know, getting changed. And I was like, Oh, yeah, this is pretty cool. But, um [01:27:00] yeah, and it's like that's once again when people start getting really fishy of it. And, um yeah, and like, there was like one teacher who was, like, obviously really homophobic and like, um, there was this one person at our school who was openly gay and there was only the one. And, um, he picked him constantly and he ended up throwing out of class to find any excuse to throw him out of class. Anyone's attention for a week or anything like that, I It was just another deterrent not [01:27:30] coming out. So like after a year, it got really hard, and I decided that I tell her and then like every couple of weeks, I got to tell her and I just couldn't do it. And then finally, when it got to the stage where I said I would got up and got the tower, it took, like, two weeks to back off because she didn't believe me at all. And then I came out right at the end of seventh form and [01:28:00] things got pretty hard from now on because she turned really nasty and she went through and told my family and everything before I got a chance to, and they didn't take it Well, um, few of the family came to my house because there was a point I was fighting and they came to practically try and kill me I was an only child, uh, an only boy and the oldest in my family, uh, out of all the other you know, cousins and so on. [01:28:30] And, uh, I was really close to my mom. And I guess, um, you know, I was always a bit odd. I always, uh, I guess a little bit effeminate or people just didn't quite know what was going on. And, uh, you know, I didn't like hanging out with guys very often, uh, playing sports and all that stuff. Um, so it's a long a long story in the sense that, um, I ended up being separated from my mom. She became ill, and, uh, my father ended up looking after me for a short [01:29:00] while, and that didn't work out. So I was alone for a little while when I was about, I don't know, about 10 through 12, fending for myself, and then I moved in with a next door neighbour, Uh, a nice lady. I guess she was about 50 at the time. She was also a single mother and had an older son who was, uh, older than me. He was about 25 and, um, Well, I you know, around the age of 10, you start realising what you like and what you're attracted to, and, ah, it's a difficult [01:29:30] time for me anyway, being separated from my mom and I just not necessarily took on her persona. But I, uh II I guess I ended up acting more feminine and like using her whatever was left of her hair products and some of her clothes and that kind of thing, It either to compensate for the fact that she was gone. Or I'm not sure if it was for that or if it was for me, uh, to come to terms with myself and eventually some guy friends that I had, uh, when I was growing up, [01:30:00] common experience for most guys, you know, fool around when you're younger, uh, seeing if you know you both have the same parts and and how they work. And and except for me, uh, I really enjoyed it. Um, so, you know, I remained quite unique and I, you know, well dressed And I had dyed my hair all the time and and, you know, did weird stuff with myself. And at a point in time came when my stepmom was actually quite embarrassed by me. Ah, and [01:30:30] I knew that she was not, you know, very open to, uh, homosexuals, either. So it was a different, difficult place for me to be in. Um, and eventually one day, I just, uh I guess when I was 15, I came out and said, Yes, I am, Uh I am gay, And, uh, I don't want you to have to deal with this, Um, so I'm going to move out. So I did. I moved out, and, um, which was probably a good idea for our relationship with me and my step mom. But [01:31:00] also, it was quite bad in the sense that I I did a lot of things that I probably shouldn't have. I. I assumed that when I was living on my own that I could just go and do what I please when I want. So I you know, I was getting into gay bars quite young, under age. Uh, I learned how to drink way too much and smoke and do all those horrible things way too early. And, uh ah, you know, I frequented bathhouses. I actually, as soon as I moved out, I put an ad in the paper and [01:31:30] the local, I guess it would be like the village voice type of thing. Uh, want ad and lied about my age, of course. But, uh, that's why I took on my my first real experiences with other gay men. Um, uh, it was quite traumatic because a lot of them were older. And, uh, you know, they saw me as a real treat because I was young and I was, you know, I guess cute at the time. And, uh, some of them took advantage of me and so on and so forth. But, uh, from it all, I think [01:32:00] I've grown. And, uh, you know, I'm still gay. I moved to Vancouver and I'm best friends with my step mom. Now she's, you know, she asks a few questions every once in a while, and I'm very blunt with her, and I tell her exactly probably what she doesn't want to hear, and she won't ask any more questions for about another six months, But she's curious, and she's very supportive.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089413
TITLE: Snapshot 2000 - first same-sex experience
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VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: Snapshot 2000; gay; sex; sexuality
DATE: 1 January 2000
YEAR: 2000
LOCATION: Aotearoa New Zealand, Aotearoa New Zealand, Oceania
CONTEXT: In this podcast compilation participants talk about their first same-sex experiences.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My first sexual experience was through an A place. Um, I was extremely, extremely nervous. I knew I always wanted to be with another guy, but to be quite honest, I didn't really know what to do or how to go about doing it or how I should feel. I can always remember the ride driving to this guy's place. I was just shaking I. I knew I wanted to do it, but I didn't know what I would do when I got there. And we ended up just kissing [00:00:30] for about two hours solid. And we both ended up with really sore lips. And that was my first encounter. I saw this guy again. I. I don't know why, but we contacted each other again and we managed to fumble around. I suppose you'd call it, Um, we both took off all our clothes and played with each other, and but that was the extent of what happened. It's just the thing. Once as you get older and the more you do it, you you learn what [00:01:00] you like and you tend to head more towards that. But in those early days, I really had no idea. Um, I had a lot of conflict. Um, doing it simply because I had always been brought up a Christian and it was always, always a big issue. I've I've done the wrong thing. I felt really dirty really bad. Um, at the time, my parents did not know and [00:01:30] there was no one really I could talk to. I could talk to my best friend who I came out to, but as he wasn't gay, he really had very little interest and wasn't really into listening about me and my first gay sexual experience. It took a while for the bad feeling to go. But once the feeling of guilt went and I actually started realising, Well, the hell I I did actually enjoy it. It made me feel a lot better. I suppose my first real sexual experience was with somebody in my secondary [00:02:00] school, which is a school you go to from the age of 11 to 15 in the UK. And it was AAA chap, a lad called Matthew, and we were the same age, and we had to go on a camping trip. And in this country, that means intense er, not intense, but actually under canvas but it was pretty intense and we ended up travelling to this site in the middle of a mall in Cornwall again, very remote, very windy, very wet. And it was single sex tent and Matthew and I had always played together and hung out and done stuff and [00:02:30] gone into town together in the lunch hour and just had a good time. And there was that spark that you probably can't explain or understand. But you know it's better. Is that that that it's that intense, mind numbing sort of electric spark between you, that excitement and you can't quite define it because he's never experienced it. You don't know what's going to come. And so we were at this campsite camping, doing the things that teachers make you do when you're a kid, like rescuing barrels out of ropes of, you know, ropes that are supposed to be lakes [00:03:00] and all that sort of malarkey. And nighttime came, and Matthew said to me, just as we were all getting in there, thinking, Why don't you come and lay next to me? And I thought, Yeah, why not? I normally I lay next to my best friend, Ben, but No. I went to lay with Matthew, not lay with him in the biblical sense, but lay next to him and, um, I was we went to sleep and there was the usual sort of laddish laughter that you get and playing around. And in the middle of the night I felt his hand on my sleeping bag and I was sort of filled with an sort of a a again, an anti anticipation and [00:03:30] an excitement, and I reciprocated. It was the old tag game that I. I think I've read that a lot of first time sexual relationships are based on is that you touch me here. I'll touch you there and and it continued and hands went under sleeping bags and I'm in. One particularly emotive and and exciting point was that we were writing words on each other's stomach cos we couldn't talk because we had to be absolutely silent. You have to remember that Cornwall was not a place that was greatly respectful [00:04:00] of of things that weren't the norm, IE sleeping with relatives and driving tractors. So we had to be very, very quiet about it. So we were spelling out words on each other's bodies, which was intensely erotic, Um, not intentionally, but through necessity. But sometimes things that you do through necessity are out of nature erotic. And it was sort of Are you enjoying this? Yes, I am. Obviously, it took a very long period of time. But the one thing I suppose, the one thing we we never completed that sexual act as as you would probably reading [00:04:30] science book. And maybe that was a little part of my insecurity, not wanting to give everything away at once. So I just pretended to fall asleep and and the next morning we woke up, and it was as if nothing ever happened. Until a couple of weeks later, when it became a relationship that lasted for some years. My first proper sexual experience, as in a deliberate sexual experience with another man alone, would have been with my friend Michael, and it was like a deliberate act I. [00:05:00] I had gone to visit my friend Peter. As it was. Peter and Michael were brothers. Peter was my good friend through high school, one of my very best friends, and I knew it was Peter's birthday. I went to visit him, but Michael was visiting as well with Peter a happy Birthday and offered Michael a left home with the distinct idea in my head that Michael could be interested in doing sex. And as I dropped Michael off, [00:05:30] not too far away from that house where he was living at the time. So Michael gave me a kiss. Good night. And then he just leaned over and he put his hand on my leg, went slide down to my groyne, stopped me going hard. And he said, I think you'd better come inside. So even though we were a bit pissed at the time, uh, I remember it being enjoyable. Mark [00:06:00] was such a a comfortable, friendly person, and he wasn't at all demanding. He was very patient, and it was good fun. I stayed the night, um, we had breakfast, fell out to his flat mates. It was a totally positive, enjoyable experience, and there certainly wasn't even the expectation that more has to come with this. It was a case of This is a good thing for us to do. We'll do it and you know we'll see each other again because we're in the same social circles. [00:06:30] But I thought that was a really positive way to start. And to, uh, to go from there in terms of knowing that, like, trust and friendship and enjoyment can go to sex. The first times was, um I think in, uh, 97 like, around October 97 I met that guy on the Internet. Uh, he's British. And, um, I talked to him. And then, [00:07:00] like, I was trying to experience what gay, uh, sexes. And, uh, I talked to him and I went to his apartment, and then we talk, and then we got really interested in each other. So, um, we did K. And then, um, we went to or or And then, um, I didn't know anything about anything at all. I was kind of nervous and wanting to experience stuff. And [00:07:30] I told him, like I as I seen in a porn, I want to have an And then he said he won't do it because, um um I think, uh, you know, he he's really he sort of cares for me because I'm still a virgin and he he he has a very big endowment. So he's one of the best gay guy that I've ever seen, and I think I'll never see him [00:08:00] again. And then, um, I forgot to get his address. So I didn't email him or anything and then So I sort of wanting to experience other guys. I don't I, I don't know. I think it's not right. But many gay people do that. And I think this is what I I Sometimes I think it's what gays life is about seeing a lot of different guys, which is why a lot of us wind up getting AIDS or HIV. So, um, I went to see a, uh, like a couple [00:08:30] more several guys. Um, but I didn't feel the same way as the first time. They weren't gentle, you know? So I think it's really hard to find someone like that first guy again. But, uh, I don't know. I still want to experience with, uh, several more guys, you know, to have different experience, but they just don't feel the same as my first time. It's memorable, and it's really what love making is all [00:09:00] about. Not like other times, Um, what I feel what I really want is a gentle and romantic stuff. It's not it has nothing to do with like sex, but the way he touches you like it just feels so good. I think this is what all sex is about. It doesn't have to be an sex or oral sex. So, um, after having sex with a lot of guys with just, like excitement and what you see in the porn, I feel that this is not [00:09:30] all what sex is about. It was the first time I reached out and actually met a guy with the intention of having sex with him, which was, which was very, um, strange and exciting and and and and and anxiety as well at the same time, I was like, completely nervous. And, um, we met on the street and we went into a bar, and I remember that the cloak lady was a psychic, and she's like, Oh, I feel good vibes here. And it was all very IIII. I saw good signs [00:10:00] and everything, you know, not even those kind of things. And it really clear, because I think he was working for some French cognac firm in New York and we decided to go home to my place, and I think what we did is just cuddled and and and and touched and and and stroked a bit, which was already all the way for me because I never I never touched a man. I never I never dared to look at a man naked. And, um, I remember we were naked that that that that's for sure. And, um, [00:10:30] I immediately invited him into my life through a, um, a concert which was going on, uh, that next day or two days after that, and I said, Oh, you have to come along with me and, you know, for me, he was That was it. He was my boyfriend now, um, And and he said, Sure, sure, sure. And, um, I think I gave him my number. I don't think he gave my number. He gave his number to me and of course, he never called. And I couldn't reach him. And I was devastated for for weeks I was like, [00:11:00] I felt so. I don't know, let down. It's like, this is this is this is this was this was supposed to be my dream come true and and and, um But I felt I think I felt I felt very devastated about his just standing me up. Um, but I think I felt I've also felt good about having done this, and I didn't feel ashamed. I didn't feel any negative feelings about that I I can't recall. No, I don't think so. My first sexual experience. Oh, [00:11:30] it was hideous. I think it was. It was in a shopping centre. Believe it or not, it was just I look back now and I think, how could I have ever done it? But it was my first sexual experience, and it is as vivid now as it is not vivid. Vivid is not the right word. It is clear now to me now, as it was then and I I actually went to the public toilet and I had a note slipped to me under the wall that said, I would like help masturbating. Can you help [00:12:00] me? And I was like, Ah, OK, being the naive young idiot that I was, So that was my first experience under the wall of a bloody toilet block. So yes, Um, my first real love making experience, I would have to say, was with a guy I actually went to school with, um we always sort of hung out together, Um, for about year seven onwards, [00:12:30] and it got to about year nine. We sort of, you know, we're in his his place after school, studying one day, And, you know, one thing led to another, and I remember that very, very clearly it was probably one of the most scary, scary experiences I've been through in terms of having all the nerves and all the the excitement and the, um yeah, all that stuff that [00:13:00] goes on there and having that reciprocated from this person and having that combined and like just having him touch me and and touching his skin was it was mind blowing it. Yeah, I've gone off to LA LA land now. Um, but it really was mind blowing. And we spent the next what, couple of years fooling around together. He was my first. He was my sexual partner for about three years. Um, [00:13:30] we basically learned to do everything together, um, and explored our sexuality together. So, in a way, I was lucky that I had that I I look back now and I say we weren't boyfriends. Um, I think we were more, Ah, lovers in a way. And we sort of discovered our bodies together and and do that sort of stuff. And I got to a point where where I came out and II I can't I took that step and [00:14:00] then everything sort of changed for me in my life. It was wa was no longer a big secret that I had to sneak around and and do all this stuff. I could be open about it with my family and, well, not so much my friends, because I kept it to myself at school. I didn't people or less speculated, but I think the difference between people speculating people knowing is a very big jump. Many people know something instead of speculating it. Things [00:14:30] change dramatically, so I always try to avoid. I always try to avoid that big dramatic jump because I didn't want things to get any worse. Um, so in terms of yeah, So in terms of my first love making experience, um, I had it lucky. In a way, Um, I still keep in contact with this person now, and he's still very much in the closet. And as we say, um, bad enough about him at his life. My [00:15:00] first sexual experience was a, um it was not a good one. It was, um, was a pianist. I met through the and, um Well, it was the first time I accepted to meet someone in in his own flat. Um, just a few few minutes after coming in his flat, he asked me to [00:15:30] to put my clothes off, and, um and he wanted to have sex with me. So I was quite surprised. Because for me, um, sex and love were connected, and it is not always the case. Uh, still, it is the case for me at the moment. Uh, I I've always thought thought and, uh, I still think that, uh, it's best to have sex when you love, um, the person you have sex with, but, uh, this chemist [00:16:00] didn't think like this. So I I was curious. Uh, I wanted to know what it was. I must admit it so, But at the same time, uh, as I didn't love really, that that guy, um, it it was quite surprising. It was like acting and, uh, being a witness of your act at the same time. See, um It wasn't love at all. For me. It was something [00:16:30] something physical, but, uh, nothing else. So after that, um, I must admit, I didn't feel quite well. Um, I wonder why, Um if was was to be. So maybe I had to have no sexual life at all. But, um, I don't regret it when you first come out as logically. Also, very Randy, I suppose, would be the way of putting [00:17:00] it. And, um, you think you know everything and that. And, um, you just rush into things, And I suppose that's one thing I regret. Um, I was 14, and I suppose I just wanted to just to experience that, and, um, it was nothing. It's just a waste, Kind of, um I mean, the curiosity is there, but I do recommend waiting. Um, I've just recently broken up with a long term relationship. Um, it was very hard. Um, but I mean, my [00:17:30] first time. I guess it's just a learning experience, and you get through it. And, like, I had known this person for a while, So it was a good thing, I suppose. But, um, I suppose it's just something that always happens and that curiosity does kick in and you are randy and horny and your hormones take over. You, um I think is I find a lot of older men often like to go for younger people. That's one mistake I've never made. I can say, Um, I think that's one thing People just need to be careful. Careful of that. People aren't [00:18:00] what they see, and they do lay a lot, and especially in the clubbing scene and all that, you will get people that will make you feel wonderful but only want you for one thing again. It's just these old men that are just looking for one thing, and there's nothing really there. And I I've seen it so much in Christchurch that older men going for younger people and, um, it's like the younger people are vulnerable because they want support and someone to hold, and the older men know this so they take advantage of it. So that's one thing I say to be very careful of, because you can get trapped and you may not realise it, but it does happen and um, [00:18:30] yeah, I try to warn people all the time about it, and it's just It's good to just not just to, like, stand up and just realise, OK, I'm gonna be careful, and I'm not gonna rush into anything, So yeah, um or you're always nervous. So I remember you always feel nervous whenever anything sexual happens from kissing to holding hands or anything, you're always like, you know, wow, sweating. I suppose it's It's a weird experience and you get used to it and it becomes [00:19:00] nice later on. If it's with someone you really like, it becomes an amazing thing. So just don't rush into it would be my advice. Um, just wait and you will find someone that you feel special about. So, yeah, I think the first time I had sex, real sex was with this guy I met at a bar. The my first boyfriend And there is an older guy. And, um, yeah, I think I, I think the first night when we met, um, [00:19:30] he brought me home and we kissed in the car and we fumbled a bit. I can't remember how it was and how I felt. It's It wasn't It wasn't great. I mean, obviously, I had to learn everything, and, um, it must have been great then for me. But, um, I've I've learned so much ever since I've grown so much. I'm a completely different person now, And, um, I can't really relate to that person anymore. I was it [00:20:00] 899 years ago, 10 years ago. And, uh, if anything, um, it was just such a relief to to come out. It was like this huge weight to fell off me. And, um, I could finally start being myself and and and getting to know myself and and and grow and learn and and be feel confident and or become confident. I wasn't I wasn't this feeble shadow of of myself anymore. It was me. I didn't have any secrets anymore. I. I really [00:20:30] didn't have any secrets and and I I and that actually made me a completely different person in being very extrovert and very open about what I felt and how I felt and and and what I thought and and what happened to me and very open to other people. And, um, that attracted a lot of people too. And, um, I've completely changed from from being rather timid and shy and and And you know the the the guy who gets picked last, uh, at the gym lessons at high school, [00:21:00] Um, to a very open, friendly, extrovert person with a lot of friends. Uh um, very entertaining. And, yeah, AAA person that a lot of people like, I think I just sort of chatted to this guy on the Internet. And then he came down to the place where I was boarding at the The lady that I boarded with was away for the night. So we sort of talked for a while, a bit nervous, [00:21:30] and then I guess we had sex. So it was just sort of mainly a bit of that sort of money, just sort of in that, um and I just sort of afterwards, um, I just sort of wanted him to pretty much sort of go straight away, and, um and then I change the sheets and all the rest of it. Um, so I guess the first few times, I guess I sort [00:22:00] of enjoyed it, but then want to to sort of sort of get them away quick And that and I guess perhaps they just the people. And I guess also because I wasn't out. I didn't. Was frightened of being, though coming home, so Ah, I mean, like, well, getting in court or whatever, so I just wanna to get rid of them quick, so I didn't get caught. Um, I guess coming out sort of in obviously don't have to worry about any of that anymore. So [00:22:30] So it was sort of a while. Like when I first had a only about two guys and I was like, I don't know, six months or more or something after that. And then I sort of came out. I think you always remember your first. If it's true, it's one of the most vivid memories I have. I think, um, he was only a young guy. I was at the beach lying on the beach, sunbathing. Um, I was in my early thirties. I suppose, uh, he was a kid of about 18, [00:23:00] 17, 18, like being a bit older. And he kept everywhere. I went, he was right behind me. So in the end, um, I asked him what he wanted. He said, ohh. He said, I find you very attract. I wanna have sex with you. So off we went. Um, and I was like a kid fumbling around. Um, I didn't know what to do or or anything like that. Um, I just remember, um, holding him [00:23:30] feeling like I had never, ever felt before. He was 18. He was hung like a horse. And he was so hard, I can remember that. I sacked him off. I gave him a blow job, I guess. Um Then he bolted. Um, I felt what did I feel? I don't know If I like, if I can remember, truly what I feel now I know went looking from the following day, but there was nowhere to be found. Um, I guess it was one of those [00:24:00] normal first encounters that most 15 or 16 year olds have. You don't know what you're doing. You're fumbling around. Um, I guess that was it. It was the start of a number of rather cheap and nasty. Well, not nasty encounters, but cheap and unsatisfying encounters. I guess the first few times, I guess it was OK. But after that, it each time you sort of sneaked off to do it. It it sort of I don't know. I think to me, to me six, [00:24:30] there has to be intimacy. And with intimacy, there has to be knowledge or a liking of the person that you're with. Um, don't know. I just don't find it satisfying if I don't at least get to know a little bit about the person. The first male I was with was about It was about six months ago when I came out and, yeah, it was It was different to what I thought it would be. I felt yeah, I felt good because I'd [00:25:00] been there and done that. But it's like it wasn't just proving that I was gay. It's like, Yeah, I really like this guy. And it's the way we ended up and we But we ended up not being friends after that. So that that had a little to know that just being used, but yeah, was wasn't wasn't, um as what would you call it? Um, wasn't what the build up was to it. It was a bit of a letdown. Ohh. Before it was great. I was really excited. Nervous? Everything [00:25:30] else during. It was great. Afterwards, I was a bit bit down, but yeah, that was just because it wasn't what I was expecting, but yeah, it got better and better after that every time you asked that. Anyway, so my first male sexual experience was an absolute nightmare. I was very drunk one night at this mixed bar. Um, he actually picked me up and, uh, took me back to his place. [00:26:00] Um uh, the excitement was amazing. Doing it was OK. It wasn't what I really expected. But when that next morning when I got home, I was, uh, really, um, really upset. I was expecting something absolutely out of this world. Something absolutely amazing. Unfortunately, it wasn't, [00:26:30] um, that morning I got home. I felt very sick. Um, I was absolutely disgusted myself. Um, I actually lost my virginity to a guy before a girl always thought I'd get married and have kids and have a station wagon, all that nice thing. And I thought it actually totally destroyed my life. I wasn't for a couple of years after that that I, uh I actually met someone that was really nice and very caring, and, uh, it made [00:27:00] It took a while for me to actually adjust to it. I sort of fiddled around, you know, with the boy next door. That was when I was about 14 or 15, and he was only just experimenting. And he was quite cruel, actually. Um, the first real experience was when I was 21. Prior to the experience, I was extremely nervous. I was shaking almost uncontrollably here. I was [00:27:30] finally finally going to experiment with something that I've been thinking about for 0, 10 years or more and er during it, I was still shaking him. But he was He was a very nice guy. He was also on drugs, so he I think he had some sort of, um a relaxant of some sort because he was a bit glazed over, um and then afterwards, incredible guilt because I'd been told by the Catholic Church that that was the bad thing [00:28:00] to do. I don't have those good feelings anymore because I don't see it is relevant. It happens. When I was in the Army, it was sort of just naturally happened. There was no one around. And we have to stay in duty when, um, the camp and in winter it's quite cold, and we just try to keep, keep warm, keep warm, and we end up laying in the same bed [00:28:30] watching TV and just, you know, naturally we just cuddle and and trying to be warm because there is no heater there. So and and that's when when it happened, Um, sort of, um, joking off. There's nothing nothing like, you know, just just watching it. And then the next day I feel so I I felt so bad and he probably felt the same way. And we just couldn't look each other [00:29:00] in the face for a couple of months. We can't even speak to each other. Um, it was quite bizarre because I think it was probably the first time for both of us had experienced that it will probably feel guilty and strange and maybe stupid. Um, but at the same time, you sort of enjoy it. It's kind of exciting, and and I think it was just driven by sexual desire of [00:29:30] of when I say that man, it just happened to be a man next to you. So that was my first time experience. And then although we we didn't really talk to each other for a long time and actually it happened again, it happened again. So we actually did it again, so it was quite strange. And after a couple of years, III I knew he got married. Um, I didn't go to the wedding, [00:30:00] but I knew he was Mary. I think he's straight now, basically. And he was just, like, fooling around. I haven't really had much like sexual experience. I have, but I haven't. I haven't been around that long. I've only been out for two years and I'm sort of getting used to the gay scene. I don't think I was ever very taunted, but I used to kiss a lot of boys in the night. Um, but I also did that when I was with girls. Um, I'm quite feminine, I think. [00:30:30] And I like feminine males. Um, the first experience would have had to be my first boyfriend. Yeah. Um, it's when I was 20 when I first came out. I'm 22 now, but it Yeah, I remember meeting this guy. Stop. He was very thin. He had blonde hair, leather pants, and he was standing behind me, and I kept looking at him, and I was a person [00:31:00] that would go up to someone. I've never been very shy, so I went up to this guy's sky and I spoke to him and we ended up kissing. And then about a week later, I started seeing him and I went to his house, which was near the nightclubs and the street commercial road. And I remember saying to him, I can play with you, but you're not allowed to play with me Then he eventually took me upstairs [00:31:30] where he was a lot older than me. He was 25 so he knew what to do, and I didn't do any anal sex with him. It was mainly just for play, and I started seeing him for about 23 weeks, and then I never spoke to him again, so that was just the first experience sort of thing. The first sexual experience that I recall, if you want to call it sexual, is something that I remember [00:32:00] to this day as if it happened yesterday, because it was so wonderful. A friend of mine, Carmen. His name was Italian kid. He and I used to go to the movies a lot, and I don't know how it started. But sitting in the theatre watching a movie in the winter we just We put our coats over our heads so that we wouldn't be seen and we kissed underneath the coats the whole time [00:32:30] of the show. He just couldn't get enough and couldn't stop. And when I think back now, I'm wondering, you know, what did the people in the next row think? Nobody ever tapped us on the shoulder and said, What are you doing or anything like that? Nobody ever bothered us, but we had a wonderful time kissing each other and and, uh, all of that under the under the coats in the dark in theatre. And I remember that as my first sexual experience. It wasn't [00:33:00] anything complete, but it was extremely exciting. I've never been able to recall what led up to it. He wasn't attractive to me in the sense that Bobby Mantel was. He was just a friend. And he never expressed any interest in in real sex with me either. But for some reason or other, I guess, uh, maybe we were copying what was on the screen. I don't know, but for some reason [00:33:30] we just wanted to do that with each other, and we we enjoyed it so much that, uh, we we couldn't stop my first experience, um, started off with somebody that was the same age as me and I. I got to know him very well before anything really happened. I was I was very scared yet at that time to to even experiment with anything, Um, as I hadn't yet I am [00:34:00] we not? We did not live that close together, but, um, he actually started going to college very, very much near me, um, in Minnesota, and we became very close that way, and things just started to progress, and one thing led to another, and we started becoming very close. We're passionate, um, together. And the first time anything ever happened, it was it was really something. I felt connected, Uh, something that I had been the longing for [00:34:30] that was missing in my life. Something just totally, um, so valuable that, you know, uh, I couldn't even explain it. And it just felt like something out of me that was missing that I was playing this straight role for my whole life since the puzzle was finally complete. And it was, um it was a great feeling. And, um, it it's changed me in a way that, um [00:35:00] it helped me figure figure out that who I am is so important. And another reason why holding back is going to alter your being and who you are if you don't, um, tell people truly who you are and, um, and what you're about before I I was actually really anxious. Um, I'd we'd been drinking quite a bit, [00:35:30] too. And I was still just really nervous and really tense and II, I don't know, but at the same time, just really excited. Um, just because I mean, I I'd never had an opportunity to act out anything. Um, and it was enjoyable, but sort of like in a like, I'm doing something that sort of naughty way. Um, just because I think even though even though I felt a little I felt a lot more comfortable with the with the idea of being gay, I still had a lot of a lot of, [00:36:00] I don't know, just sort of guilt about it. And I didn't realise that, um I I don't know I. I didn't see that until actually, after we were after after, uh, we were done. Um, I. I felt extremely guilty. I felt, um I don't know I. I can't explain it. It was a really strange sensation, because on one hand I knew there wasn't anything wrong with what I had done. But I had just been so ingrained with the idea that it was a bad thing [00:36:30] that I didn't really let myself like, enjoy it after or have, like, an afterglow or anything, you know, and I, I don't know. It actually took me quite a while to be able to really enjoy having sex with somebody, even though it was somebody something that I really wanted to do. And it was something that, like I really enjoy doing, you know, it's just something II I don't know. It's it's sometimes it's hard to let go of something that you've been told all of your life. Um, while I while I was actually having sex with them, [00:37:00] I was I was just sort of wondering, you know, Is it Is it really? Is this really what it's all about? Is this really it's just like I? I don't know. There wasn't a really A There wasn't really a connection to it, and there wasn't really, um any emotion involved in it beyond, just like I wanted to have, like, a really quick thought. And go on. Um, maybe that's part of what I felt guilty about. It's just I. I always also, I don't know. It's also part of, like, just the [00:37:30] Christian idea of sex is, like, not necessarily that it's so so bad to have sex, But there should you should it should be in a loving, environmental loving relationship. So I think I think that also contributed to why it wasn't the most positive experience. Um, my first sexual experience. I remember that was with, um, a friend that I was going to school with, Um And [00:38:00] so I've known him for quite a while, and I think I was only about, 0, 16, I think. And, um, we both had a bit to drink, and, um, I was there at his house, and in fact, he was going out with my cousin at the time, and we'd only sort of all just been out together. And I was staying over there and yeah, had a bit to drink. And, um um, yeah, things just happened, but I didn't really feel [00:38:30] like didn't really feel like a, um, sexual experience, because it was all really secretive, and it was almost like, you know, this happened sort of thing. Um, it really didn't feel like I'd confirmed anything about myself at all. Um, that seemed to be a much more not an emotional thing, but something that came from the inside, something that came out, you know, in regard to being honest with myself rather than anything else. But, um yeah, but I guess [00:39:00] the the experience that will be memorable in that it was, like, the first opportunity, I guess, Um, before that, it was all just sort of fantasy, you know, 24 hours of fantasy, um, imagining what I might be doing and with whom. But it, uh, after that, after I came out, my first sexual experience was all about the first person I could get my hands on. Really? Um, and it was good. Yeah. I. I can recall it. Um, [00:39:30] I recall it being quite comfortable. And, um, of course, it's the first time you do this and the first time you do that and there's a few first, um, and yeah, they're all good or memorable. I recall the first year after I came out was I was really quite active. And it was sounds a bit, I suppose. But I was, um, counting the number of different people that I've been with, Um, it was almost like a bit of a game. [00:40:00] Um, and I know that isn't all that unusual. I just guess I It is what I think about now. Um, but that was an exciting time. I mean, just sort of, you know, exploring different situations as well and different people. Um, I guess as you get a little bit older, that sort of adventuring has sort of stopped a little bit, but, um, the thought of it doesn't if it doesn't go away. [00:40:30] My first sexual experience is something that I had to a certain extent planned in the fact that I had now been seeing this person. I had developed an emotional bond with them, and so I assumed that they would be the first person that I would have sex with. Um, the first sexual experience I had wasn't in terms. Um, as much sex as it was just a lot of kissing, and that happened. Um, [00:41:00] all night one night on my parents' lounge, and I think that to me, was a more special moment than my actual first sexual experience, which happened the following night. Um, something that I'd always just been interested in was what the sensation of kissing somebody was and having just that close male to male contact. Um, in terms of a sexual experience. I think it [00:41:30] wasn't that big a deal when I ended up having sex, because to me, it wasn't anything more than what I could have done to myself in terms of the the release of sexual tension or anything like that. What had gone on the night before with the intimacy between me and my boyfriend, to me was a lot more significant in my life than anything that had come before or that had come after. I think that was the turning point because that was my first, um, [00:42:00] time, sort of realising, I guess that I was gay and that this wasn't a disgusting thing for me to do or anything like that. It just felt very natural, and I enjoyed it. Um, I enjoyed hugging and kissing and just having that bond. Um, and I guess for me now, when even in when I'm having sex with somebody, that is always the intimacy that I look forward to enduring [00:42:30] sex probably more or as much as the actual part of having sex. I think I've always had desires for guys. I mean, I've had lots of girlfriends when I was younger, but it was never anything. It was liver, the right time or the right place to grow a relationship with a woman. And every time something ever became serious with a woman, it always turned bad. And, um, I kept thinking to myself, No, it's just [00:43:00] me. It's just me being paranoid But I had a lot of dreams about guys. I mean, I never messed about him until I was 17. That was after I first had sex. I never really had the desire for that. And, um, so before then, all my wet dreams were about guys, and I thought that was just, you know, a phase. And, um and there's this one dream that was always the same dream over and over, and one night cos I'm going forward in time now, So I first [00:43:30] time I ever went to a bar was Toledo Park. The same thing happened to me in the bar that happened to me in my dream, and it became reality. And I knew that I was gay because my dream stopped and I didn't feel so insecure. I felt that I found my true self. And, um So I was sitting in a bar with this guy. I didn't know who he was, and, um, I said, I can see it now. Clearly, in my mind, [00:44:00] I was It was All I could see was from the neck down, and I was sitting next to him at the bar and, um, my temptations got, got the got the best of me, and I reached over and grabbed his and it was a That was my dream. That's all it ever was. And none of my dreams were ever sexual, never sexual. It was always emotional and, like two guys you know, holding [00:44:30] each other or, you know, fondling or kissing. It was never, ever sexual. I never, ever saw a guy sexual in my dream with dreams when I was a young kid. So, yeah, my first experience was before I came out. It was it was actually, with one of my friends. We were and to this party and we ended up just like crashing him at my house. And like now I was there. I ended up having a few drinks and stuff like that and ended up talking, [00:45:00] and I found that he was going to be moving away to Australia. And we talked about all sorts of things about life, about about feelings. He was another one who didn't have a girlfriend, but no one could have ever picked anything about him. But he admitted to me he was gay and I moved to him the way I felt. And then he questioned me because I had a girlfriend at the time and it just felt right because [00:45:30] it was like, OK, yeah, I am. I'm gay. It's like, this isn't some Most, you know, this isn't some dream I've had or something like this. It's like I really felt like it at the moment. It was the perfect thing to do, and yeah, I don't know how to explain it. It was just It was just good to be with them out and know that it wasn't gonna go any further and so no one would care and I could just get hang up in the moment instead of worrying about [00:46:00] the repercussions of the anticipation of it was, uh, disbelief. It's like when we're talking about it. And he told me, I just I didn't believe it. It's not that I didn't want to. It's probably what I did want to. And I just thought it was like, you know, I was just testing me sort of thing. So I It took a couple of guts to say, You know that Well, yeah, so am I sort of thing doing it. It was, um How would you describe it? It was it was [00:46:30] relief. It was It was really central. It was. It was fun. And it was It was It was more like a friend thing. It was, Yeah, it was just a friend last sort of moment. But afterwards it was just like we talked really well and like we still keep in contact and stuff via email bit. I just I think they helped me a lot in realising, you know, when I did come out, it was other gay people because like, [00:47:00] there wasn't that many around that I knew of at the time until I did finally come out.

IRN: 456
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/snapshot_2000_personal_advice.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004118
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089412
TITLE: Snapshot 2000 - personal advice
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: Snapshot 2000; coming out; gay; sexuality
DATE: 1 January 2000
YEAR: 2000
LOCATION: Aotearoa New Zealand, Aotearoa New Zealand, Oceania
CONTEXT: In this podcast compilation participants give their personal advice and opinions to those thinking of coming out.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: The advice that I would give to anyone who's thinking about coming out, as in them coming out as being gay, lesbian, bisexual, whatever is to come from an informed position. And the best way to do that is to get books that are supportive. Right in Brisbane, we've got a couple of like, specifically supportive bookshops where you'll get gay and lesbian literature. I read books, it's one of them. And if you get books like I'm looking at books on Relationships [00:00:30] like Together Forever by Andrew Marshall that I have in front of me at the moment there are books on like gay and lesbian film like The Bent, Les is a wonderful book loving someone gay by Don Clark and by even reading books of short fiction and reading How other people have either felt about the same sex or have fantasised about feeling It's all useful, but to then realise [00:01:00] that there is a huge range of things that can be true or that can happen. And looking after your health is gonna be a consequence of knowing that you're worth looking after. I think one of the best books that I've read the Homo Handbook by Judy Carter is so valuable, I think, because it's so amusing as well, and I could see that that would be a good thing to get informed then to get active. Getting politically active is a useful thing [00:01:30] to do. It doesn't mean that you have to be involved in, say, the pro collective forever. I know lots of people who've used the pro collective as a a really important social tool, so I'll spend two or three years getting involved with the group, feeling confident about identifying as a gay man or lesbian, and the fact that the festivals attract several 100 people here like several 1000 even up to for like, the day events. It puts you in a good position to start, [00:02:00] I think dealing with life better. I suppose if I had a message to anybody who was coming out or deciding their sexuality or or realising that they weren't who they thought they were and they are now something else, it would be to ring me cos I'm always available for weekends, bars and barbecues. No, it would be to be confident in yourself and to be sure that that you're the person that you think you should be and you're not anybody for anyone else, you can only be yourself, and there's no right and wrong in the human body, there's there's [00:02:30] no there's no lies to yourself. You can only be true and you will lose friends and you will gain friends. And you may have difficult times with family, but you'll get through it and you'll be a stronger, wiser, better person for it. And that sounds incredibly patronising and very arrogant and very blase. Unfortunately, it's really true. You've just gotta go for it. Be the person you know in your heart you've got to be and enjoy it because it is the best life you'll ever have, because it's the only one you'll ever have. [00:03:00] I did some, um, work with the Victorian AIDS Council. Um, um, I used to be a facilitator for a drop in group, um, for under eighteens, and I've actually been through the whole coming out thing with a lot of a lot of young guys and because I was always, um, the one that was out and had the knowledge I had guys crashing at my house when their parents kicked them out and I've seen so many people make so many different mistakes, and so many people made some very good decisions. [00:03:30] And I think the best thing for me to say to someone who's thinking about coming out and it's gonna sound like an absolute cliche it to, um just follow your heart and go with your gut feeling. You know, it's like things will change the minute you say it out loud and I, I suggest saying it out loud to yourself until you believe it. Before you say that loud to somebody else. Um [00:04:00] but, yeah, things things change, your life will change dramatically. Um, I yeah, been a very long journey to get to where I am today. Very, very long journey and a very hard journey. But I look back now and I think, Well, would I change it? That's the one question I po I still pose to myself. Would I change any of it? And I I The answer that I come up with is no, because if I I was to change one [00:04:30] little thing one itty bitty thing that happened, I wouldn't be the person that I am today. I wouldn't be the strong willed emotional to get the person that I am. You know, we we all learn through our mistakes and through experience. And if you block yourself from feeling anything or doing anything you'll you'll never really [00:05:00] achieve of happiness, I suppose, um and I can honestly say, at 23 years old, um, that I am happy and finding finding that happiness, finding that place that makes me happy gets me through the bad times if something crops up or, um, I'm going through a rough time. If I'm feeling really lonely or you know I have to deal with the problem, it doesn't. I feel, yeah, I fall down, [00:05:30] but I don't fall as far. And I've got tools on board to be able to pick myself up in a very confident way. And if I've made the mistake, I can admit to it and learn from it and go well. Hey, I fucked up, but I won't do it again. And if I do do it again, I'll do it differently. And if differently doesn't work, I'll try it again and again and again. You know, nobody's perfect. [00:06:00] Nobody's always right. Nobody is always wrong, you know it's about. It's about the individual. It's about you being who you are and you choose to feel how you feel. You choose to be how you be. No one else can change that. They can have an impact on you. Yes, and they can influence you. Yes, but ultimately we make the we make the decisions in our life and we need to empower those and go inside of ourselves. I'm [00:06:30] me. I love me. Yay! My message would be definitely do it. But be very careful. Um, it is a great thing when it goes smoothly, but don't rush into it. If you are not sure, don't do it. But if you are sure your life will my life will particularly change very drastically because I had the support of the people behind me and give people [00:07:00] the benefit of the doubt. I was absolutely positive I would lose my parents and most of my friends and I haven't lost a single person yet. And through people I've talked to, no one I know has actually lost anybody through telling them the letter idea is a very good idea. I found it worked for me. You get all your ideas down on paper and you don't fumble. You don't get upset. 30 Everybody's different coming out is something [00:07:30] so personal? It's something that you have to come from within yourself. Um, I'm not. I'm not out there in a barracks. Scream to everybody, come out and show yourself And I just you know, for me, it's been one of the best things in my life, and I'm so happy I'm gay because being gay has made me a person who is in touch with himself and and and still stands on on the on the on the ground with both feet. But, you know, if I hadn't been gay, I probably would have just led my [00:08:00] life very unconsciously. Um, you never know what's going to happen. I mean, you, you can't you can't talk about what is, but I feel that it would have taken me at least much, much longer to to start discovering myself and for and and finding out who I really am. And being gay per definition almost means that you have to go through this episode where you have to get to terms with yourself and have to have a very sharp look at yourself and for me, that makes a person so much more interesting [00:08:30] somebody who's who's actually taken time to reflect and think about himself and what you want out of life and how you want it and in what way you want it. And you know who you really are. What? What makes you And, um I find that with a lot of gay men, um, that that's what is, um, common is that you all have to go through this phase of coming out, which is very traumatic and very scary and and can be very unsettling because [00:09:00] you're turning your whole life upside down at these are words for me. And I think nowadays, um, because I I've noticed that gay men in the bars and and and and that are open and they're so much younger than than I was, um I mean, uh, they're like II. I meet gay. I mean, I see gay people here in Amsterdam, which, of course, is a very gay city. Um, we're like, 14 and and and and they're openly gay, and they're openly gay at high school and all that stuff and they don't It doesn't seem to be a problem at all. But for me, it's been [00:09:30] it's been a very different and for me, it was very, very difficult to come to terms with it. But once I did it completely changed my life. And, um, I've noticed so much good come to me after I could be completely myself. Um, and my life has become so much better. And I've I've, you know, all the things I was afraid for They're all false. They're all they're all, uh, concoctions. Is that what you say? Or with all They're all fictive things in my mind things that I've made up, [00:10:00] um, which, you know, stem, of course. From from I guess from from, uh the way I was brought up. Uh, but they're not, uh, they're not real. Uh, nothing to be really afraid of. Be true to yourself. I think that's what you really have to be. You have to decide who you are, what you are and how you want to live your life. And then you go and do it and like yourself, be proud of the person, not not so much as sexuality. [00:10:30] I don't think that's important. Well, it is important to you, but be proud of the whole person that you are. Don't just base everything on your sexuality. Don't try to just you justify your existence based on your sexuality or anything like that. Just be proud of the whole person that you are. I test the water with people that you know very well and see what their reaction is. But I sensed [00:11:00] that my mother wouldn't be able to cope with it, and I kept it from her for quite a long time, and she didn't like that. And when I told her that she wasn't reacting particularly well, and that's the reason why I didn't tell her she like that even less so. There was no way of winning. Um, take your time. It's It's It's your life. You do what you have to do. It's not important to anybody except yourself and your immediate family and friends. I don't see how [00:11:30] any of the gay political scene needs to have your voice added, Um, unless you're comfortable. It's not a political statement. It's a statement about you be prepared before coming out. Um, think of any questions. You have to be 100 and 10% sure. Um, I know there's a fear of all the gay bashing and stuff. I know I had that sort of fear, but I don't. I think it just if it happens, it happens. But it hasn't happened [00:12:00] to many people. I know. Um, so you have to be really prepared and careful. Um, especially with sex, safe sex, the way to go, um, control your hormones going out to a club. Think about the way I see it is everyone has got AIDS, so you have to be protected. That's just a I know it's a negative thought that to make myself not have any unprotected sex, I believe that everyone has the virus. And [00:12:30] I mean, you can't get the virus by kissing and stuff, but if you're thinking of having an sex and going all the way through just meeting a guy at a club, going back to his house, that I have ever done that, But be prepared, you should come out when you feel when you feel you are confident enough to be able to do it without being, you're gonna be nervous at first. They just come out and and just that natural, [00:13:00] possibly get some advice first from another transvestite or transsexual and just come out naturally. Just you grab me nervous at first. But then don't be so nervous to the show. I don't know whether it's kind of hard for me to give advice, because I'm not exactly that type of person [00:13:30] coming out. I would say that. Of course, it depends on your age. Certainly, if you're a teenager, you have to remember that you don't have economic security. You don't really know, although you may think you do how your parents will react. I would have said my father would leave me and my mother would stay with me, and it worked out just the opposite. So I would say, uh, be sure that you can take care of yourself if you have to be sure that you [00:14:00] have some kind of support of friends that will you will not be alone should that verse things come of of your coming out and wait until the time when you're strong enough as a man or a woman to, uh, to let people know, because there are a lot of people really that don't care in in this year 2000. They just don't care as long as you're a nice person. But there are [00:14:30] those fanatics who do. I mean, we hear of this guy, Gary Bauer, today stepping out of our election and saying that he will continue to mount attacks against gays and abortion. And that's the kind of mentality that you really have to be sure that someone you're coming out to doesn't have because they will turn on you. And you think that in this society here, as much money [00:15:00] that you may have to take care of yourself educationally and, uh, realistically, uh, for the necessities and maybe a house and all of that, you really are far better off coming from a strong point to come out. Uh, then other people will find it much more difficult to disown you or to leave you. But it's not a nice process, although I have known people who have come out and they have had wonderful experiences with it. [00:15:30] But there's nothing guaranteed here because this is a very sensitive subject for some people. One thing I wish I would have done differently is actually not really. When when I when I came out to my friends. Um, I made I sort of I sort of made it a bit of a big deal about it, because I I did feel really uncomfortable. And I was just, like, I'd be like, you know, I have something I have something to tell you. And and, you know, I don't want this to, like, jeopardise our friendship and because I I didn't really know how people would respond to it when I [00:16:00] that was. That was when I was talking to my friends. They they didn't really care, either, though once I actually told them, um, it was just sort of OK, you know, what's the big deal? Why do you Why do you make a big fuss out of that? Or else they'd just be like so I don't know. They the responses were were pretty varied, but there there was nothing really negative. I definitely didn't lose any friends. Um I don't think anybody even felt really awkward about it. They were awkward about the fact that I was gay, maybe awkward about the way that I was presenting it. Um, [00:16:30] I don't know, I. I don't really think coming out, though, is that big a deal. I think it's more. I think it's more just being comfortable with yourself and some people I. I know there are a lot of people that actually need to come out, and they need to, like, affirm the fact that they're gay and they need to have other people affirm that. And if if that's the case, then definitely come out of the closet and do whatever it takes, because there's nothing worse than being unhappy with who you are and feeling like you're not being true to yourself. Um, but I think I think the biggest thing is we it I don't [00:17:00] know, just just do what it takes to to make you make you content and make you make you happy with with who you are. I think coming out is not coming out to other people. It's really coming out to yourself, um, and being able to live a lifestyle. It's honest. It's, um and there's a feeling sort of nothing like it. But you know, um, really look at who you want to tell and why you want to tell them. Is it really necessary? Um, [00:17:30] but yeah, my, my advice generally would be that it's just better to live honestly. And, um, you know, to to enjoy who you are. Um, and try not to take on, you know, too much a lot of the judgments you've heard from other people. Um, over time, Um, I think you know, they've been That's a product of different things that people have learned over their lifetime. And, [00:18:00] um, you know, we live in a society that only understands heterosexuality is normality. For whatever reasons, I think the biggest message is wait until you're ready for it. And I think there's a lot of people that, depending on their environment, depending on where they've grown up, it really matters a lot as to how well you plan it. [00:18:30] If you just, you're in an environment that isn't particularly tolerant to you coming out. Look at yourself hard and think, Is there really that big a need for me at this stage in my life to subject myself to having to come out? Or is it something that I can put off for a year or six months, or however long? It is until your circumstances allow you to come [00:19:00] out without, um, a backlash that could affect your education or that could affect your family stability. Obviously, it's always gonna affect your family to a certain extent and your yourself to a certain extent, Um, you just have to look at your parents, your friends. Your support network, I think, is very, very important. I was lucky that when I did come out, I had begun to develop a support network of friends. But if [00:19:30] I did have a very bad backlash, I wouldn't have been on my own. But at the same time, I was also independent that I was living out of home. So again, if my parents had found out and they had sort of thrown me out of the family or something, I could have survived on 2 ft. Um, and obviously that's not going to happen with every family, because I think a lot of parents are extremely supportive. Um, and some are not, and only you know how your parents are gonna react. Um, but think of [00:20:00] the long term consequences rather than just looking at. This is something I need to do for today because it's building up inside me too much. I just have to tell them. I think you just need to plan it and have some sort of network or something to fall back on if it all ends up going wrong. But if it all ends up going right then or if you think it it is, then good luck to you and just do it whenever it is appropriate. So if it if it means that you're a 15 [00:20:30] year old and it's appropriate, then do it if it means you've got a If you're a 21 year old and you're only just beginning to accept that, maybe this is what you are. Then wait until you're 21. It really depends on the person, and and whenever they're ready, don't let anyone force you to to come out. I think you have to wait until the timing is right. Don't just say it because it sounds good. Um, you've got to know yourself if you're gay or by, [00:21:00] um, it's a hard one to say, because everybody's different. So leaving a gay lifestyle is what you make it just like a heterosexual life, Um, can be as happy or sad as you want it to be. Um, just be open be honest, be genuine and you'll get along. You'll go a long way. You'll live a long, happy life from the happiest one of the happiest me life. Well, I hope I am. I think I am. Yeah, my health [00:21:30] is great. I don't stress out as much as anymore. Um, my values and people adore me because I'm so open and so honest and they see me for me and I see them for them. But you have to do it in your own time and your own mind.

IRN: 860
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/paul_diamond_discusses_charles_mackay.html
ATL REF: 
ATL URL: 
TITLE: Charles Mackay
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Paul Diamond
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1910s; 1920s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Berlin; Charles Mackay; Frank Sargeson; Germany; Helen Shore; NZ History; NZ Truth; Paul Diamond; Peter Wells; Walter D'Arcy Cresswell; Whanganui; William Mitchell; blackmail; crime; death; history; homosexual; homosexual monomania; law; mental health; mental illness; poetry; prison; prisoners; provocation defence; writing
DATE: 7 September 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In 1929 Charles Mackay, a former mayor of Wanganui bled to death on a Berlin street corner - a victim of violent clashes between police and Communist protesters. How did he get there? An earlier incident triggered Mackay's tragic trajectory: in 1920 he shot the returned soldier-cum-writer Walter D'Arcy Cresswell, who was blackmailing the (secretly homosexual) mayor. Paul Diamond's research into the events surrounding both shootings has uncovered new information about this hidden aspect of New Zealand history.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Yeah. So this is a bit of an update on some research that began in 2004 and is still going, Um, and it was in connection with a radio programme, Um, with Radio New Zealand. So I want to acknowledge, um, Prue Laine, who was an original collaborator on that research. And also, I acknowledge the support from the ministry and the Start Research Centre at Victoria University, where I've been based, Um, for a bit of the time this year, in June 1914, His Majesty's Theatre in hosted a fundraising show for the technical [00:00:30] college bill as grand, polite, Vaud and not entertainment, The evening kicked off with the Jesters Quintet and the comedian Mr Fred Groom Bridge singing his screamingly funny comic songs. Then Professor Mackay the Hypnotist, mental telepathy and ventriloquist presented the big hypnotic show. First up, Professor Mackay and his pal Bill performed their big ventri turn. Then the professor gave a demonstration of the fun making possibilities of hypnotism, supplemented by an interesting exposition of mental [00:01:00] telepathy. Newspaper reports tell us that the professor's subjects were as clay in the hands of a potter and their comical antics, while under the influence kept the audience in continuous laughter. Professor Mackay's real name was Albert Godfrey. I'm not sure, actually, if he was Mackay or Mackay. And while he used hypnosis to entertain on the stage, his day job involved using it to treat functional and nervous disorders from his Ville home several months after the concert. One of those seeking treatment [00:01:30] was Professor Ma uh Mackay's namesake. Charles Mackay, the mayor of the mayor, had been referred by his GP and sought help for homosexual tendencies and began a course of treatment. Presumably, this was private to the two men and very few, if any, others. But it became more widely known six years later, following a sensational shooting on a Saturday afternoon in May 1920. The first reference in the newspapers was the following Monday and a story with a curious headline. [00:02:00] A painful sensation. Young man seriously wounded, Mr CE Mackay under arrest. The young man was Walter Darcy Criswell, a 24 year old returned soldier and writer from Canterbury, visiting his family as well as being Wanganui, then longest serving mayor. Charles Mackay was a 44 year old lawyer and father of three daughters Mickey shot Chris while the two men were arguing in Mackay's office on the right hand side up upper level [00:02:30] of this photo and Cresswell was taken to hospital. And that's about all people knew for several weeks while they waited to see if Cresswell would recover. Very little was reported in the newspapers after Mackay's lawyer requested the papers not publish statements of the affair obtained from outside individuals. Papers beyond whanganui weren't so circumspect. The Poverty Bay Herald described the shooting as the greatest and most painful sensation Whanganui has experienced for some considerable time. But to this day, it's unclear exactly [00:03:00] what did happen in Mackay's office. Once Crewe's condition improved, Mackay's attempted murder charge was confirmed and a trial date was set at the trial. Crewe's version of the events leading up to the shooting emerged in the form of a bedside statement. Unusually, this wasn't signed by Chris Wall, but it was signed by Mackie, and that endorsement at the bottom from Mackie reads. I have read the above statement, and as far as it relates to my own acts and deeds, I admit the statement to be substantially true. [00:03:30] Now, This three page statement describes how Chris will arrived in town on the Monday before the shooting. That day he had dinner with his cousin and Mackay at a local hotel. The three men dined again three days later, and Mackay invited Creswell to visit the sergeant gallery the next afternoon. And here's the Sergeant Gallery in Queens Park, built with a bequest from Henry, a local farmer. The Sergeant Gallery opened in September 1919, and so the construction of such a grand gallery in a provincial centre during [00:04:00] the Great War was a sign of prosperity and status. As the fifth largest town in New Zealand, Mackay was a driving force behind the construction of the gallery, which probably explains why he had a key when he visited with Creswell. No doubt the two men admired the copy of the wrestlers, described by one gay writer as one of New Zealand's top three Homo erotic sculptures. Here it is being admired by the playwright Ronald Nelson. Chris Statement explains what happened next, revealing his role as a provocateur and blackmailer. [00:04:30] So, Chris Will said in a statement. When we left the art gallery, we went to Mr Mackay's office in Ridgeway Street and while there I discovered a certain disgusting feature of Mr Mackay's character. I purposely encouraged him to display his qualities and his nature, which I expected. He also showed me several photographs of nude women on making that discovery. I told him that I had let him on on purpose to make sure of his dirty intentions. And I told him also amongst a lot of other candid things, that he must resign the ty at once. He then pleaded for [00:05:00] mercy and asked me to think over it for the night and come and see him next morning and let him know my decision Now. It's unclear exactly what Chris will did to lead Mackay on what the certain disgusting feature of Mr Mackay's character was and how this was revealed. But the photos of naked women became clear when I visited Berlin in 2007 and met Carl Hein Steinle, who in the right in this photo who's a curator with the museum, the only museum dedicated to the research and publication of homosexual life. Steiner had seen [00:05:30] similar references as a typical way of finding out if someone is gay. The photos could also be used to arouse the other man, which makes sense if he's having, for example, sex for money. Like male prostitutes who may not have identified as homosexual. The Crewe statement brings us to the big mystery hanging over the whole story. How did someone who wasn't even from come to be blackmailing the mayor as I'll explain? My research has shed some light on this, but to continue Crewe's account of what happened in Mackay's office as agreed [00:06:00] Mackey and Chriswell me again. The next day at Mackay's office, Mackay told Chriswell that he was suffering from a complaint, which made it impossible to for him to control his passions and said that his doctor could satisfy Chris Will. In that respect, he rang his doctor, but every time he on two or three occasions. But each time the doctor was out, the pair continued to argue. Before Mackay agreed to write a letter, resigning as mayor in a month, According to Chriswell, he was following Mackay through the door into an adjoining office. So where that where that wall would have been just round about where I'm standing there, [00:06:30] Uh, when Mickey turned around and shot Chris will before placing the gun in the young man's hand to make his surprise, Cresswell got up and pointed the gun at him. So we're looking the other way now in that in that office, Mickey then ran out of the office, and Chris will find he couldn't open the door, threw a chair out of the window and then yelled out at the people on the street below. Mickey then reappeared, asked Chris Will to shoot him. But Chris will fired off the remaining bullets in the gun, and then Chris will then ran out of the office onto that landing there [00:07:00] and ended up on the stairs towards the street as people from outside were coming up about where I am. In that photo, Mackay gave himself up and was held in custody until the trial, which was 12 days later and in the Magistrates Court. Mackay gave no evidence beyond pleading guilty. The court heard statements from Chriswell and the eye witnesses who saw the shooting from the street. The next day was a sentencing hearing in the Supreme Court before the chief justice, Sir Robert Stout. In this trial, we do hear from Mackay via his lawyer's submissions to reduce the sentence. [00:07:30] And these are the submissions that underline my argument for describing Mackay as this country's first homosexual. Mackay's lawyer told the court that his client had been suffering for a number of years from homosexual monomania and that he made efforts to cure himself by consulting doctors and meta physicians. Statements from these experts were produced for the chief justice but not made public at the time. One statement from the GP explained that Mackay came to him six years earlier with reference to homosexual monomania, and he advised him to obtain suggested [00:08:00] treatment and believed he acted on that advice. The second statement is from a G Mackay, the professor I mentioned earlier now calling himself a meta physician. This statement tells us more about what the suggested treatment involved. This is to certify that Mr CE Mackay in August 1914, acting on the advice of his medical advisor, came to see me about treating him for obsessions of homosexual nature. He was in a very worried and depressed frame of mind and said if I could not help him, life would [00:08:30] be impossible. He had treatment intermittently until the end of November 1914. He then stopped the treatment because, he said, the homosexual ideas were gone and he felt quite all right again. In my opinion, intermittent treatments should have been kept up for 12 to 18 months, then the cure would have been permanent. I have treated other cases of homosexual desire with success. The two chief causes of relapse are alcoholism and neurasthenia. For the last two months, we know Mr CE. Mackay has been had great mental strain and worry, and I'm sure if this had not [00:09:00] been so, this trouble would never have come to pass. So there's three words in these statements that help us decode them monomania, meta, physician and neurasthenia. So today, monomania is a general term for just an obsession in psychiatry. It used to mean, uh, describe a form of insanity or mental illness featuring a single pattern of repetitive and intrusive thoughts or actions. So homosexual monomania would have been, I think, seen as a disorder where a person has a person has a tendency [00:09:30] towards homosexuality or, more specifically, what was then called the crime against nature, sodomy or buggery. A meta physician these days is still regarded as an expert in metaphysics, the branch branch of philosophy dealing with the first principles of things here. I think we're dealing with a different, now obsolete definition for a person who practises metaphysical healing. This can refer to a Christian science term for the use of non physical means to cure physical illness. But at the same time, it's important to remember that when Mackay sought his treatment, mental disease [00:10:00] was seen as having a somatic basis being very based in in your body rather than Freudian ideas and things that came later. So what sort of treatments could have been offered by meta physicians? Thanks to papers past the the National Library's website, we can get an idea from looking at advertisements placed by meta physicians, which appear from the late 18 nineties through to the 19 thirties. Among the therapies offered by metaphysics are spiritualism, magnetic suggestion, medical clearance, hypnotic therapeutics and psychometry. [00:10:30] So if we look a bit more closely at Albert Mackay's advertisements in in September 1914 around the time Mackay sought his treatment, we know that Albert Mackay used suggestive therapeutics to treat all functional and nervous disorders. Now, homosexuality isn't among the cases listed but it may have been covered by bad habits of all kinds. And by the following year, in 1915, he added anaemia and asthma to the list. But just as hypnosis is still used, for example, to help people [00:11:00] stop smoking, I suspect that in 1914 it was used, perhaps with auto suggestion techniques to help or to attempt to cure homosexuality. 1916 Albert Mackey starts calling himself a meta physician and relocates to street, which, if you're familiar with it's the Harley Street of Wanganui. His granddaughter remembers him wanting to be a doctor but not being able to afford the training because he had, um, a large number of Children. Despite this, there is evidence he was taken seriously as a health expert. We need to look [00:11:30] a bit more closely at the conditions listed by Albert Mackay in his advertising in the court statement as a cause of homosexual relapse. It's this word neuroth. This is another obsolete term, referring to a bewilderingly broad array of physical and mental symptoms attributed to nervous exhaustion. Bearing this in mind, it's significant that Mackay's lawyer told the court it was a matter of common knowledge that the accused had been suffering considerable mental strain over the last three or five months and that, to a considerable extent, had unhinged his mind. [00:12:00] So the argument is reminiscent of the con, uh, the temporary insanity and provocation defences in a murder trial that we're more familiar with today. The provocation defence has been controversially deployed in cases where a homosexual man has been murdered, and the defendant, through his lawyer, argues that he was provoked by the victims sexual advances and that this justifies a manslaughter sentence or an acquittal. In Mackay's case, there's a curious twist here. You've got the man who inflicted the violence, arguing that his own homosexuality made him temporarily insane, leading him to attempt [00:12:30] to murder the other man. But in 1920 the defence didn't impress the chief justice, who said the attempt on Crewe's life was not an impulsive act. As the placing of the revolver in the young man's hand showed. While accepting the fact of Mackay's sad affliction, Stout said he would have to impose a heavy sentence with the hope that Mackay would try to redeem himself and in the years to come be found clothed in his right mind. He then sentenced Mackay to 15 years hard labour. And so Mackay began a remarkable tour [00:13:00] of North Island prisons. But before we look at that, let's just look a bit more closely at the events leading up to the shooting and why Mackay was under such pressure. Here he is on the top right hand side of this photo, um, at Cook's Gardens, reading the address of Welcome to the Prince of Wales. So that's Edward the eighth, the one who abdicated. Uh, he visited just before the shooting and was still in New Zealand when it happened. Mackay was at the centre of numerous rows trigger triggered by arrangements for the visit. These [00:13:30] arguments lead to death threats against Mackay, and he was apparently carrying a gun at the time of the prince's visit. So how did Mackay's unpopularity in Wanganui connect with Darcy Crewe? Well, we know a bit more about this because of Chris subsequent career as a well known if ambiguous figure in New Zealand literature. The year after the shooting, he returned to England, where he had been studying architecture before the Great War. Now he wanted to write and had a remarkably resilient belief in his ability as a poet. Then, as now, the critics [00:14:00] disagreed. Writing in 2008, John Newton argued that Crewe's efforts can fairly be described as Creswell was deluded in his self belief as a poet, and nothing that he wrote subsequently would alter this impression of his verse. Chris's prose writing was more highly regarded, but none of his works are in print, and his writing hasn't appeared in Anthology since the 19 sixties. After he was shot by Mackey, Chris Will won praise as a wholesome minded young man for his efforts to unmask Mackay's pursuit of what truth called perverted [00:14:30] and putrid pleasures. When it became known that Chris Wool was like Mackay homosexual, the story took a different turn. In addition to the still unexplained circumstances of how and why Cresswell was enlisted to blackmail Mackay, there's also the question posed by the writer Peter Wells. Why would one homosexual man blackmail another Crewe's relationship with Frank Sarge, another homosexual writer, gives us a better idea. In the 19 thirties, Cresswell lived in Auckland and told [00:15:00] Sarge about the shooting Sarge and had been involved in another blackmail court case and also hidden his homosexuality, he told Bill Mitchell, who was a retired school principal, about the shooting. Mitchell, who was from, started researching the story and continued after Sarge's death in 1982. Mitchell wrote up his research, and this is, uh, an unpublished manuscript deposited with the Auckland University and Turnbull libraries. As part of his research, Mitchell wrote to Helen Shaw, the writer, poet and editor [00:15:30] whose collection of Crewe's letters was published in 1971. Helen Shaw had also been researching the shooting and found Crewe's own admittedly second hand explanation for why he blackmailed Mackay. Now among the many corresponds that Helen Shaw contacted was Crewes Christ College classmate Charles Carrington, who wrote to Shore in About in 1965 about what apparently called the adventure. And this is what he wrote. All I recall of the motive is that Darcy had a young friend [00:16:00] and he's gotten brackets and quotes Ronnie question Mark, who had fallen into the clutches of the mayor who quote had a bad influence on him. Darcy threatened the mayor if he would not break his association with this. Ronnie Darcy would expose him. The mayor, then asked Darcy to his private office for a discussion, shot him with a revolver and tried to frame it as a suicide. Now this is Bill Mitchell with Phoebe Me and Frank Sarge's house, actually, so that's Bill there. Neither Shaw nor Mitchell apparently made any progress in finding out more about Crystal's friend, who may have been [00:16:30] called Ronnie. Similarly, the identity of the cousin who had dinner with Chris and the mayor and possibly introduced the two men has remained hidden. What's now apparent is that the cousin and the person that Chris Carrington mentioned could be the same person. Not knowing about this possibility explains why both Mitchell and Shaw drew a blank when they were trying to explain Chris's motive for blackmailing Mackay. I also drew a blank when I tried to identify Chris Relations, who no longer live in. The breakthrough came when a researcher [00:17:00] loaned me a scrapbook belonging to Crewe's aunt, Eleanor Mary Cresswell, published in 1994 by one of her grandsons, together with copies of handwritten notes, photos and ephemera from the scrapbook. This included family background information, providing the missing link to the Crewe and opening up a new perspective on the 1920 shooting. So this book, with its crude photocopied Grandma's Scrapbook label, suggests a endearing mison of cosy, homespun reminiscences. Instead, [00:17:30] it's a haunting portrait of a woman's profound and raw grief over the loss of her son, Jack in the Great War. It also recounts a bitter row with one daughter who was called disliked by her mother as much as another son, who was called William Free, was loved and admired. There's a letter in the scrapbook in 1944 which was two years before Eleanor died and a decade after the death of her husband. And she evokes the names, the name of her in laws to convey her aversion to her daughter. [00:18:00] Nala is her father's daughter. A Crewe Free is my loved son, Jack was my loved boy, too. Very much like free. True, kind, gentle has sympathy and understanding not so much for the pound shilling and pence as the Crest walls, which was first with them. The very name I dislike, how I have been hurt by more than one Cresswell. So who were these? Chris? So much for the pound shilling and pence despised by Eleanor. They came to New Zealand from England on the famed first four ships brought by the Canterbury Association [00:18:30] to found Christchurch. Darcy's great grandparents arrived on the ST George Seymour together with their four Children. Their eldest son married and had 14 Children, and the two oldest were Darcy's uncle, Charles Marshall Creswell and Darcy's father, Walter Joseph Criswell. Charles Criswell married Eleanor Mary Slate, who kept the scrapbook. So the Cresswell family link with Wanganui begins in 18 91 and Crewe's grandfather became manager of the newly established Wanganui Freezing Works in Castle Cliff. [00:19:00] Three years later, his son, Charles Cresswell, started at the works and became secretary and later manager, staying with the company until it closed over 30 years later, Charles Creswell involvement with public life would have brought him into contact with Mackie, who was also the family lawyer. Now it might have been Charles Cresswell, who introduced Darcy Crest to Mackay in 1920 But I think it was more likely to have been one of his five Children. Presumably one of these is the cousin referred to in Darcy Crewe's statement. So assuming it wasn't either of the daughters, it could have been one of the surviving [00:19:30] sons, Roland Marshall and William Free, who were around 29 and 21 respectively, in 1920. And this was the third son, Jack Tennyson Creswell, who died in the Battle of Passchendaele on the 12th of October 1917. Now, like so many of those who died in that futile attempt to take the Bellevue Spur, his body was never found. Another Creswell cousin, Gordon Hallam, died in the same battle, and Roland, like his cousin Darcy, had served overseas, and both were wounded. Now [00:20:00] Roland was known as Ronald by his family, and his Army file is under that name. What if Roland slash Ronald Cresswell was the Ronnie mentioned in Carrington's letter? Having lost one son in the Great War? Maybe the crest was feared losing another. Or were they resentful of Mackay as an able bodied man who'd enlisted but avoided military service and not lost any Children to the war? Until more information emerges, there can only be speculation, but Eleanor Crewe's scrapbook hints at a family traumatised by the Great [00:20:30] War. From 1918 through to just days before her death. In 1946 Eleanor wrote to her son Jack on the anniversary of his death and his birthday, pasting the notes in the scrapbook whether or not the Cresswell family had a motive. Darcy Crewe's attempt to blackmail Mackay aligned with anger and directed at the mayor. So here he is. This isn't long, actually, before the shooting, this is the trotting club, and he was the president, and this is him here in the centre of that photo. [00:21:00] So in 1920 Mackay was still recovering from an accident the previous year when he was run over by a milk cart when he successfully sued the car driver who was a lot poorer than he was. Mackay was criticised by The Chronicle. The criticism intensified from February 1920 when was confirmed as being part of the itinerary for the visit of the Prince of Wales. Now securing the only concert in New Zealand for the prince should have been a coup for Mackay. But quickly things unravelled after he engaged out of town musical soloists. There was a storm of angry letters to the papers [00:21:30] asking why Gan's own performers weren't good enough for the for royalty. Then there was another row when temperance groups objected to the Claret Cup to be served at the Supper for young people at the Sergeant Gallery after the Civic concert. But these rows paled alongside the argument between Mackay and the branch of the returned Soldiers Association. Unhappy with its role in planning the visit, the RS a asked to be able to mount its own concert in the opera House. This was agreed to, but the quarrel flared up again because of a row between Mackay and the president of the RS a, [00:22:00] um Nelson Gordon Woods, which is this chap here. When Mackay refused to apologise to Woods for comments made at a council meeting held in committee, the RS A banned him from its concert, then withdrew permission for the RS A to use the opera house, prompting the RS A to meet the government ministers organising the royal visit. When Mackay wrote to the paper defending his actions, the RS a reply in return contained a threat. We had hoped that it would not be necessary to refer to this, and we do not [00:22:30] wish to publicly discuss this question aspect of the question before the prince comes to or while he is in new Zealand. We hold him as the representative of the King, for whom so many of our members have thought it an honour to have suffered and bled and too great veneration to say or do anything which would cause trouble while he was with us. Mr. Mackay knows very well what we refer to and if we are made to publicly explain further at this juncture on his head, will be it. We are quite prepared to make an make an affidavit regarding certain matters which are, in our opinion, unfit for attending [00:23:00] our entertainment. And we will, after placing it before the proper quarter, deposit that affidavit with the court and hand copies to the local papers to be published after the prince's departure from New Zealand in order that the people of the town may judge whether or not we acted with due cause. I wonder what that affidavit said. The affidavit has never come to light, but apparently contained the faithful record of a mayoral utterance made in our presence and hearing concerning the prince and a motor car supplemented by an extract from the local press reporting a somewhat similar reference concerning [00:23:30] His Majesty the King now that may be true, but I think it really reads like a veiled threat to me and I and I. I can't help but wonder if they were perhaps talking in code about perhaps what they knew about Mackay when this appeared in the papers. Mackay was in Auckland for the prince's arrival. After his return, a railway strike was called and the whole visit was put on hold and the visit was cancelled. Then it was on again, but three days later than initially scheduled. But tragically, the visit was a disaster and exposed to international [00:24:00] ridicule. One account, published in papers in Perth, Tasmania and Melbourne, had the headline Blunder of Party Jealousy, and here's just a little excerpt about one of the concerts. The concept of it by the returned soldiers at the opera house drew a crowded house but was not an artistic success. A scene was set resembling an oasis in the desert. Several performers dressed as Arabs sang old ballads such as The Better and Love song, introduced personalities and made jokes about beer. There was also some poor dancing. The concert was not an oasis, [00:24:30] it resembled rather the desert itself that and it got worse. There was a there was a power cut during the civic concert, and the prince spent barely any time at the supper, after which the crowd stole the food and looted the silverware belonging to the and the prince, whose benefit this was all for, wasn't impressed. Now, as Gavin McClean's history of the governor's general has noted, the prince thought Gan's Imperial Hotel was a miserable little hole, [00:25:00] and he loathed the two ghastly concerts in a civic supper party. In a marquee where there were more than 3000 people as well as no electric light, the hotel boilers burst before dinner. So no baths and a very nasty dinner, he wrote in a letter. But worse still, for Mackay, the row with the soldiers intensified after the prince's visit, and the RS, a allegations of Mackay's disloyal utterances and contemptible conduct were published, and he was also under fire from requesting invitations to events welcoming the prince in Dunedin and Christchurch. And during the shooting trial, [00:25:30] Mackay's lawyer mentioned that the mayor had arrived in his office in a distressed state after reading something in the paper apparently related to these rows now There aren't many letters in support of May uh, Mackay over the period leading up to the shooting. But there was one that suggested that there might be more than you think to the, um, soldiers complaints, this letter writer wrote, When the whole business is analysed, there is very little in it, but I guess the returned Soldiers Association is being used as a tool to assist in the lowering of Mr Mackay in the eyes of the rate payers for political purposes. There are certain [00:26:00] people in this town who have a personal grudge against Mr Mackay and never fail to ventilate some imaginary grievance in order to show him up now. Mackay was also criticised for failing to serve in the Great War. And though he did enlist, he didn't serve or train, arguing that he was unable to get someone to take over his business. And here he is with the counsellors that he was with in 1919. So this is the group that were cos this is the council at the time of the shooting. Yet there was also more general criticism of Mackay's performance as mayor. Letter [00:26:30] writers argued that loans, rates increases and neglected town amenities were evidence that was being mismanaged. These anonymous corresponds called for a change in borough management, maintaining that sound business. Brains are wanted by the man sitting in the mayoral chair. So I think it's interesting, then that the man chosen to replace Mackay as mayor was a businessman, Thomas Boswell Williams, who was also one of Mackay's very vocal opponents. Williams was also mayor from 1913 to 1915, following Mackay's resignation after a row with the borough engineer, which was to do with the town's [00:27:00] power supply so related to this. There's another explanation to do with Wanganui Power Supply now, as I've mentioned during the Civic Concert for the Prince, His Majesty's Theatre was plunged into darkness when the electric lights failed, and what had happened was that the power plant, which was originally built to supply electricity for the trams, couldn't cope with the initial demand over time, they added, on businesses and things and other users as well as the trams. When the plant failed again later in 1920 was without power and electric trams. For three months now, Mackay was advocating hydro [00:27:30] power. From late 1919, he'd been pushing for an engineering investigation of the river as a source of electricity. But there were strong advocates for other solutions. After the 1920 shooting, Mackay's river proposal was quietly shelved and instead an alternative to Hydro. A new power station opened in 1924. Even if the row over how to resolve the power supply crisis doesn't explain why Mackay was blackmailed, it does point to one reason why it would have suited some people for him to be out of the picture. Perhaps, [00:28:00] as Mitchell, Shaw and others were forced to conclude the circumstances surrounding crystals, blackmail of Mackay will remain obscure rather than one explanation. Perhaps it was like a perfect storm, a convergence of elements of the various motives. But after the trial, a veil of silence descended over with with just a few brief newspaper references to the shooting. In July 1920 an article in The New Zealand Times and in other papers reported that Crewe had recovered and was about to leave. The article [00:28:30] said that additional information was secured by Cresswell consequent on his discoveries in connection with the first case, and though no information under this detail has been published, it is understood that certain people have shaken the dust of off their feet. Now that's a reference from Matthew, Chapter 10, Verse 14 and whosoever shall not receive you nor hear your words when you depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. This refers to people leaving and discussed at heathen practises. So it's interesting to note the next verse, which [00:29:00] many people in 1920 would have known. Very I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah and the day of Judgement than for that city. Now I haven't been able to find out much more about this, but it ties in with some persistent references in the oral history record that others beside Mackay were involved in the same immoral practises. If this is the case, it could be an additional motivation for the silence of after the trial. But more than this, the people in the town took definite steps to eliminate Mackay's name from the record. [00:29:30] So as part of the anti German feeling following the Great War, German names were changed around New Zealand and in Wanganui in 1920 the Borough Council decided to rename Crow Road and ST John's Hell. And so that became Oakland Avenue. And at the same meeting, the council has decided to rename Mackay Street in east after the Governor General Lord Jello. So where is it? It's Yeah, it was Mackay Street there, and it became, um Jello. So this is the where the homestead belonging to his in-laws and all these names are associated with the family, [00:30:00] the Duncans and the foundation Stone for the, um, sergeant Gallery was also targeted. This is the dedication of the stone by the Governor General. And there's Mackay sitting to the right of the mayoral chair here and the Governor General. And this is the stone. There were two stones unveiled that day. This one and this one. This is the one that was targeted by the town. Um, here's what it looks like now. Although it looks like the name is not there, it actually is. It's just the paint's disappeared. So at some stage, [00:30:30] I don't know when it happened, but Mackay's name and title was sanded off the marble. Uh, but the name was restored in 1985 as I'll explain later, Isabelle Mackay um, filed for divorce initially on the grounds of sodomy and adultery. The sodomy ground was withdrawn, and the divorce was confirmed by the chief justice, Sir Robert Stout, in September 1920. Now Isabelle Mackay changed her name and also the name of the three daughters. So they all became known as Duncans Mackay's In-laws were a distinguished Wanganui European settler family, and their status [00:31:00] was a factor, I think, in the town's reaction following the shooting, I spoke to a retired newspaper editor who said to me that when he arrived in in 1968 the first thing he can remember being told was, Whatever you do, don't tangle with the families of the Hunt or the Duncans. Any story involving these families would need to be approved by the board of the newspaper, and that's in 1968. In 1965 Helen Shaw wrote to the council asking for information about the shooting. The town clerk's reply ended with this suggestion, as [00:31:30] the incident was not a very savoury one in the history of this city and also as members of the family of the late Mr Mackay are still residing in. I would suggest that you either tone down the matter in your writings or omit the incident altogether. After the shooting, Mackay declared himself bankrupt and was struck off as a lawyer. Writing from prison in 19 December 1920 he summed up his own position as to myself, I should tell you that since I last wrote, I've been divorced, made bankrupt and struck off the roles so that I will leave jail without a penny, a family or a profession. [00:32:00] It is a bit hard, but it can't be helped. Of course, I shall leave New Zealand as soon as I get out and try my luck elsewhere. Now we know quite a bit about Mackay's time in prison because his file has survived. It's battered state testimony to Mackay's seven transfers to five of the 10 prisons he could have been in at that time. So here's where we went. So from he went to Mount Eden back to for a few weeks to wind up his business, then back to Mount Eden for two weeks, Uh, for two years. He was then transferred [00:32:30] to Reformatory for nearly a year and a half then spent a year in New Plymouth Prison before being transferred to prison by UM Lake for about 10 months. He then returned to Mount Eden for 11 months before he left for London via Australia. Now there's a wealth of detail in the prison file, including 19 letters from Mackay censored but retained in the file. And these give a fascinating, uh, quite unique insight into prison life through the eyes of a well educated man. Now, fortunately for him, the prison system in the twenties [00:33:00] was in a very liberal phase, under the direction of a man called Charles Matthews, who believed that men are punished by being sent to prison. They are not punished while in prison and that the opportunity should be made available for rehabilitation. So Mackay was quick to take advantage of this, And so we find them learning Esperanto, the universal language and within a short space of time, he's taking the class. He was sending French translations to the consulate in Auckland, and he had permission to receive The Times of London. With the racing and the court stories cut out. Looking [00:33:30] at the prison file, it's very clear that many members of Mackay's family stood by him visiting, writing and advocating on his behalf. So it's not too surprising that his older sister was involved in his early release from prison in August 1926. The probation licence is missing from the file, but the release was apparently conditional on Mackay leaving the country the very same day as he got out of Mount Eden, accompanied by his sister, who agreed to set him up in a new career in London. The release was apparently secret, as it didn't appear in the media for a month. But when it did, it was on the front [00:34:00] of truth, which was outraged that the whole matter seems to have been closely hushed up now. The early release of two other prisoners around the same time was also controversial, and there was extensive coverage of all three cases in truth and other papers, all alleging that the prisoners had had some sort of preferential treatment. The outrage led to the justice minister to order the Prisons Board, which was the forerunner of the parole board, to write a report into the release of the three prisoners. Now, Mackay's release coincided with a period of tension between the board and the prisons department [00:34:30] staff. And I wonder if the release of Mackay and the other two prisoners was leaked to the media by police or prison staff to get back at the board. The board's report was released a few days before Christmas in 1926 out, and it outlined the facts of Mackay's case and the reasons for the board's decision. The board also referred to a written statement made by Chris two years after he was wounded, so that would have been in 1922. Now, I haven't been able to find any more information about this, so I don't know if it relates to that additional information that that New Zealand Times [00:35:00] story mentioned. And so Mackey's story moves to London. His new career, uh, new business, which was apparently an advertising agency, failed, and he lost his money. Now there's very little information about what he was doing in London, But there are some tantalising glimpses. An enthusiastic follower of the Russian Ballet's 1928 season, Mackay drafted Scenarios and sent them to There are references in a memoir by Hector, who was a gay expat writer who Mackay had mentored as a writer who apparently left New Zealand because of [00:35:30] the shooting. In early 1927 Mackay signed the visitors book at New Zealand House and True New Zealand Fashion. The next person to sign the book was the prosecutor in the 1920 shooting case. And so the story appeared in truth, which concluded that it would be thought that any man with a grain of common decency would only be too glad to remain in restful obscurity for the remaining span of life. But this was not to be because of the sensational circumstances of Mackay's death in Berlin Front page news Around the world, Mackay was [00:36:00] killed in the street fighting known as or bloody May. This began after the Communist Party organised demonstrations on the first of May in defiance of a government ban. When the police dispersed the crowds, violence erupted. The violence escalated and became concentrated in two working class neighbourhoods of Berlin, Neko and we. By the third of May. Both areas affected by the violence were sealed off by police, who introduced a traffic and lights span with a strict curfew. Trains didn't stop and residents were told to shut their windows and keep indoors. [00:36:30] Within the areas, protesters used paving stones, trees and concrete advertising billboards to build barricades. Innocent bystanders were caught up in the violence, and among the dead on the third day were two women shot after they stepped onto their balcony. In No, the Berlin correspondent for the Sunday Express hired Mackay as a stringer so that he could cover the riots in both areas. Mackay was also working as an English language teacher, and he ignored warnings from his teaching colleagues before he joined Delma on the evening [00:37:00] of the third of May. After they visited both areas, the two went back to Lma's flat for supper, and then Delma sent Mackay back down to to check on what was happening. He was shot in the stomach, probably by a police sniper in an apartment 110 metres away. He was dead before help arrived. He was the last of more than 30 people killed in the riots and the only person not from those two neighbourhoods. No police were killed or shot, leading some journalists to speculate on whether the protesters even had any guns. Widespread criticism of the police intensified after Mackay was [00:37:30] killed. And unlike the other victims, he was well educated, professional and a foreigner. After Mackay's death, Delma challenged police accounts of what happened, and his comments were widely reported overseas. This was very embarrassing for the Prussian government, particularly when the British Embassy asked for an explanation. The police investigation concluded that Mackay was warned not to go into the danger zone and that this, together with his lack of knowledge of German, meant he was responsible for his own death. Now. Elma's memoir, which was written many years later, describes [00:38:00] what he found and, uh, when he eventually found Mackey the morning after the shooting. And there's a visual record of what saw and the investigation file in a Berlin archive. At last, I found him stretched out on a marble slab in the mortuary of the district infirmary. There he lay, his mouth gaping, open his smashed spectacles at the foot of the slab with his papers. His whisp, wispy, greying hair was ruffled and sticky. His show, his shoes pointed stiffly skywards, showing the holes in their souls on the slabs behind his, I counted [00:38:30] seven Germans, the other victims of the quiet night five days later, on May the eighth, at half past 10 in the morning, Mackay's funeral was held at the Mate Cemetery in Schoenberg. At least one New Zealander was there. Tom Sullivan, a champion. Osman who was a professional coach with the Berlin club. Now, today, this headstone is no longer in the cemetery, and and it's unclear exactly where the grave is. In 1970 the grave was the was taken over by the city of Berlin, and it closed completely in 2005. [00:39:00] The graveyard's been reduced in size several times, and the German practise of reusing graves after 25 years makes it difficult to identify where the plot would have been. Mickey was living, uh, one street away from Christopher Isherwood, who famously said Berlin meant boys. We don't know whether the Boys of Berlin were a factor in Mackay's decision to move to Berlin, but we do know that the Germans called him and praising his sense of adventure as a globetrotter. So to conclude, [00:39:30] what do all these fragments of evidence add up to? I think they helped give shape to the life and times of a figure who was eliminated from the historical record they under. They also underscore and highlight the historical significance of Mackay's public declaration of his homosexuality. Now, back when I began researching the story, I was very keen not to label Mackay as a homosexual, guided by the idea that people should be seen in the context of their own times. But over time, I've come to see the significance of the use of his use of the term homosexual in the 1920 [00:40:00] trial coined in Germany in 18 69 the word homosexual was first used in Britain in the 18 nineties, but wasn't commonly referred to here until later in the 19 twenties. In 18 95 homosexuality was famously associated with the trial of Oscar Wilde. Alleged homosexual conduct in the Army of Wilhelm in Germany was at the centre of the affair from 19 07 to 19 09. Now, both of these scandals have been described by a historian called James Stately as labelling events that dramatically [00:40:30] accelerated the emergence of the modern homosexual identity by stimulating and structuring public perceptions of sexual normalcy and abnormalcy. The shooting in Whanganui in 1920 is new Zealand's labelling event and heralded the arrival of the homosexual as a concept and as an identity in this country. Before this case, references to homosexuality were very rare in New Zealand newspapers. All of the identified reports before the Mackay case relate either to the Wild case or the Eber affair in Germany. [00:41:00] So the references to the sensation appear to be the first indigenous use of the term and are apparently among the first references in Australian newspapers. This, I believe, points to the reason for the enduring interest in the story as it's become easier to talk about that horrible crime not to be named among Christians. There have been more narratives about Mackay's fall from Grace. The earlier work by Helen Shaw and Bill Mitchell was never published. Since then, we've had William Broughton's essays in The Dictionary of New Zealand biography, References [00:41:30] by Michael King and his biography of Frank Sarge and the Penguin History of New Zealand and Phil Parkinson's seminal article in Pink Triangle magazine in 1985. Nicky's Story has inspired other, more imaginative retellings, featuring in two plays and fiction, including Morris 2003 novel The Scornful Moon So next time you're in, go and have a look at the stone at the Sergeant Gallery. At first glance, nothing seems amiss with the marble stone beside the entrance to the Sergeant Art Gallery, unveiled by [00:42:00] the governor general on the 20th of September 1917, Mackay's name and title are cut into the stone together with the names of others involved with building the gallery. Run your fingers over the stone and you'll discover a concave depression around Mackay's name and title, a tangible reminder of the earlier removal. The missing elements on the stone apparently went unnoticed until the late 19 seventies, when they became the focal point of a protest by the gay rights group. During one gay pride week, members of the group laid a wreath in the shape of a pink triangle, [00:42:30] the international symbol of gay rights and pride beneath the stone. Apparently, the protest angered the then Mayor Ron Russell, who'd been considering restoring the name. And it wasn't until 1985 during the term of the next mayor, Doug Toney, that the name was restored. But by defacing the stone, the city fathers and mothers had inadvertently given the gay rights group something to protest against creating a foothold in homosexual history. The foundation stone had become a load stone, a physical [00:43:00] link back to the time when the homosexual arrived in New Zealand.

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TITLE: Anne Perry
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VOICES: Joanne Drayton
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1950s; 2010s; Alison Laurie; Anne Perry; Aotearoa New Zealand; Christchurch; Gay Line Wellington Trust; Heavenly Creatures (1994); Joanne Drayton; Juliet Hulme; NZ History; NZ Truth; Pauline Parker; Peter Jackson; The Search for Anne Perry (book); Wellington; courts; crime; feminism; law; lesbian; murder; writing
DATE: 5 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Joanne Drayton discusses her biography of crime writer Anne Perry, better known in New Zealand as the convicted muderer Juliet Hulme.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'd like to to look a little bit at Anne Perry's crime writing and then look at some of the the resonances with her life with her story and also finish, perhaps with a little bit of my own experiences in dealing with this biography and the issues that you have to navigate. So I'm looking at resonance and redemption, resonance being the relationships to her own life, redemption, probably being something that not only an peri is seeking but also her [00:00:30] characters. So the adolescent murderers Juliet Hume and Pauline Parker were vilified occasionally in historical fashion by the New Zealand press. In 1954. The prosecution's catch cry of dirty minded little girls resounded through the media, as did, uh, psychologist Mele cots grossly insane. This is the polarity offered by a trial set out to establish guilt or innocence on the basis of badness [00:01:00] or madness. So the irony was that, um, both aspects of this dichotomy would outlive the trial and continue to fan public outrage and contempt in almost equal measure. The essentials All consuming label, however, was evil. This contained bad and mad, but was bigger and beyond human redemption entries, um in diary like an evil mirror, read [00:01:30] a headline from The New Zealand Herald during the trial. The barbarity and hopelessly irrational confidence of the accused, the youth. Parker's diary reflected the deterioration of the two girls like an evil mirror. Another one. Girls hear murder verdict. Unmoved, read a headline. This is the New Zealand truth after the sentencing, So effectively until 1994 the world knew Anne Perry as the writer of best selling crime [00:02:00] fiction, which would eventually stack up to over 6. 26 million book sales. Uh, worldwide, but hard on the tail of the release of Peter Jackson's film about the sensational 1954 Parker Hume murders, Heavenly Creatures, came the shocking revelation that Anne Perry had started life as Juliet Hume, the teenager convicted of jointly murdering her friend's mother. Life would never be the same for [00:02:30] Anne again, and a new light was cast now not only on her life but also about her writing. A murderer had gone on to become a celebrated writer about murder, so this seemed quite extraordinary, I think, understandably. But these were no simple crime stories. Spiritual and philosophical complexities thread the way through Anne Perry's works and the characters she creates. This talk today looks at some of the resonances between [00:03:00] the 1954 Parker Hume Murder and Anne Perry's crime detective fiction writing. So Juliet Hume was released from prison in New Zealand. I offered to write a book for Harper Collins based on a literary biography which obviously had to contextualise that murder. So in in many respects, the book does a lot of this, the the work. But here's a sort of it's a kind of thumbnail sketch of some of the relationships. So Juliet Hume was [00:03:30] released from prison in New Zealand in November 1959 with a new identity. She was actually called Anne Stewart. Uh, she later adopted her step father's name. Perry, uh, she joined her mother and stepfather in the UK and worked there until, after many unsuccessful attempts, she was granted entry into the United States. She worked in the state of California for five years, returning uh to the UK in 1972 when her Step stepfather became critically ill. [00:04:00] So she bought a cottage in Darsham and Suffolk and decided to try and become a published author. She wrote many failed manuscripts before one was finally published. Two things turned Anne Perry's writing life around, uh, one part of the solution came to her from her stepfather, Bill Perry. Um, a repeated criticism that she got back from publishers was that Anne's la was that Anne had a lack of a good plot, and he suggested, Why [00:04:30] don't you write a murder mystery set in the time of Jack the Ripper? So the Ripper story had fascinated people, uh, the world over since 18 88. It was an entree into the macabre mind of a murderer, and the compulsions of serial killing and the fact that the identity of the killer remained undiscovered seemed very. It's gone on being an appealing mystery for everybody. And then there was the potential for 19th century costuming, the Victorian detail, the romantic allure of the period. [00:05:00] And this was a perfect fit for a history buff like Anne. So this was a great sort of suggestion, but it was the plot, uh, trimming structures of the detective form. That bill recommended, uh, which gave crucial definition and shape to her writing. So the second part of the solution came from a writer friend who recommended that she get an agent. So the second manuscript Anne Perry submitted to NBA, this is she [00:05:30] submitted one that was sort of a fantasy history novel. Terrible. And along with this, um, she submitted the cat street hangman and interestingly enough, they read it and instantly responded to her, and she got a call back, Um, within a week or so and they said, we really like this and within, I think, two weeks from that stage, she had a contract, so it had an amazing traction for her. So this book was first published in 1979 [00:06:00] and at this stage, she was already 39 years old so that 26 million books has occurred in in that in that framework, she writes, I don't have a character unless I have a face for them. She might almost have been looking at a full length mirror when she found the face in physical appearance of Charlotte Ellison. This is scenes from Prince Ed Woods, ardent company production of this particular book. And so I guess this is a way [00:06:30] of visualising it. But you know, I don't have a character unless I have a face for them, and this is a very similar character in many physical respects to Anne Perry. So in Charlotte's long auburn hair, grey blue eyes, pale skin, tall, statuesque figure and ample and often proudly displayed bust, there is something of a match for Anne um, Thomas Pitt. That's her. Her official detective was another matter. In his visits to the home of the upper class [00:07:00] Ellison family in Cater Street, Charlotte sees him sideways with the same contempt and might well have felt he came into. And this is a quote into the morning room, filling the doorway, coat flapping hair untidy. As always, his affability irritated Charlotte, almost beyond bearing. His tatty scarf was wound once too often around his neck. His pockets bulged with a provision kit of essential detection hardware that includes actually a length of string [00:07:30] and two marbles. Um, Pitt is from the wrong side of the tracks, or rather, the estate, because his father was a gamekeeper, unjustly accused of poaching and sent to to Australia. Interestingly enough, so this history provides Pitt with two things. A posh accent because he has been educated with the son of the House and a drive to write injustice. It was an ideal combination, perhaps, for an ambitious, uh, working class [00:08:00] man in a late Victorian English police force that was changing to a professional organisation from a sort of nepotism and privilege. So she had her two characters, and she would see her story in London and build her plot around a murder in a family. Um, I guess that, you know, people often say right about what you know. It was in that context that she knew the positions of all of those people involved. It was [00:08:30] not surprising that it had an instant traction, and it's not surprising that the genre gave her the structure to contain the energy and imagination that she has in such abundant amounts. So the the family is actually Charlotte Ellison's. The victim, interestingly enough, is her older sister, Sarah. She obviously had to stop pretty soon, uh, killing off members of that family because otherwise she'd have none left. This, in a way, is the one where it starts off, and she creates these [00:09:00] characters. She didn't know where they were going to go, and then, of course, she has to work out different ways of continuing the story without necessarily killing off large numbers of the Allison family. The the Ellison household is ruled over by Charlotte's Papa Edward, a true Victorian patriarch. Uh, she can steal only glimpses of the newspaper because it is considered an appropriate reading for a young lady. This means she must either flout the house rules or convince Dominic, Sarah's husband [00:09:30] to let her slip in and read the newspaper or possibly read it in the butler's pantry. In a way, Anne Perry uses this as an opportunity to explore feminism, the strictures of women, the controls over this world and the very patriarchal kind of family unit that that she opens up the story. And so the news, as always, is terrible. It's the 20th of April 18 81 and Benjamin Disraeli has just died [00:10:00] Charlotte's, and this is a quote. Charlotte's first thought was to wonder how Mr Gladstone felt. Did he feel any sense of loss was a great enemy, as much a part of a man's life as a great friend? Surely it must be. It must be the cross thread in the fabric of emotions. Anne Perry opens with this powerful reflection on friends and enemies and continues [00:10:30] throughout the novel to make searching and profound comments about human behaviour. She explores power and sexual inequality, incisively giving the most misogynistic. I think this is interesting lines to the women who who police patriarchal boundaries she considers class difference and poverty and the lack of educational opportunity. She shows how greed and callousness may cause human [00:11:00] deprivation, but also how this is maintained by those who turn their backs or live in unfeeling ignorance. She is most cuttingly critical, however, of the hypocrisy of established religion. There are few characters more abhorrent than the pompous Reverend Preble, who is called on to minister to grief stricken friends and family after a series of apparent random gros of young women whose flesh and clothes [00:11:30] are ripped in a sexually perverse manner. Pre, who believes that women and sexuality are evil, is hopelessly insincere. His poor wife, Martha, convinced by his fundamentalist reading of Genesis, is filled with self loathing and hatred. In conducting his interviews, he finds himself increasingly attracted to the independent and forthright Charlotte, who at first openly despises Pitt but comes to realise that [00:12:00] a slovenly working class persona is only superficial and that it is the person inside who counts. This epiphany is the beginning of her maturation. As a character at the end of the novel, she agrees to jump the social divide and join Pitt in pen. As the wife of a detective, feminism had generated room for a fully functioning female detective. In the early days of the 20th century, women were on the cosy margins [00:12:30] of the genre. Wifely like Dorothy says Harriet Vane, Nia Marsh, Agatha Troy and Marjorie Ellingham. Amanda Fitton elderly, like Agatha Christie's gossiping sleuth Miss Marple or fashionably impotent. Like Christie's Prudence Cowley of the Tommy and Tuppence series. These characters were traces of oestrogen in a testosterone driven field. But by the 19 seventies, the [00:13:00] world had changed and detective fiction needed to change, too. Now, women protagonists needed to drive plots and define action, not act as adjuncts, victims or shrews. It was a perfect pairing. Hope Deon and Saint Martin's press saw the market opportunity, and Anne created Charlotte Pitt. The hangman had at its core the explosive implications of murder in a family, [00:13:30] the suspicion, the revelation of infidelity, the death, the grief, the shame which were at the heart of Anne's own story and had also an amateur detective in Charlotte Pitt that had parallels in appearance and personality to her own intimately. She knew these experiences. She knew these elements intimately, and she could tap into them easily to write this book or relatively easily. And it's amazing. She [00:14:00] and published one book a year with Saint Martin's Press, who had the world rights to her books as well. And she produced about 10 books in total before she was able to become more self determining. So it was her agent, Meg Davis, who worked out the solution to create an entirely new series. So this one was specifically for Random House's Ballantine imprint. And this is a quote from Meg, uh, providentially. Anne [00:14:30] had this thing in a cupboard that was the face of a stranger. The concept for Monk, a new series detective who was a recovering amnesiac. So quite interesting concept there, Meg remembers. Anne's original idea had been that at the end of the first book, Monk actually discovers that he is the murderer. It's interesting, she she says, that he did in fact commit the murder, and he has got to go underground. This was the idea that he'd have to go underground. [00:15:00] And then as an underground private investigator, um, he can take on hopeless cases and sort them out by other means. So it was not within the structure of the system, So it was actually a very interesting format premise. It's interesting, though, that Leona, this is the person who was was the editor for Ballantine was reluctant to make Monk the murderer at all. And finally, she actually vetoed this idea. Um, so Meg remembers her rationale. She felt that Americans wouldn't cope [00:15:30] with the kind of darkness it had to turn out, that he had left the guy for dead, but in fact didn't literally kill him. And, weirdly, for Americans that let him off the hook and everything was fine. But it does mean that he could walk away and still be a member of society and solve crimes in a more traditional kind of footing. So you can imagine how this is problematic for readers. You can imagine how problematic it was when this woman discovered that in fact, it wasn't just the character [00:16:00] that committed murder, but the author. So The main premise provided a perfect a psychological landscape in which Anne could locate some of her own reflections on the struggle between good and evil and the many situations that make this absolute polarisation inappropriate, fluid and sometimes even sort of accidental. So that the Pitt series to date had been a measured examination of subjects in which Anne took a relatively liberal position on [00:16:30] feminism, marriage, the family poverty, religious hypocrisy, incest, rape, prostitution, homosexuality. You know she does a lot, you know, I think what's interesting is she understood what it felt like to be Monk. She knew what choice and consequence was because what happens with Monk is, he discovers as he's regaining his memory, he discovers that he wasn't a very nice person. In fact, he discovers that he was a horrible person [00:17:00] who created fear. So what he gradually does is discover that this person that he was was someone he can't respect. He can't love. And so it's a very interesting thing because he has no memory. So he starts to have to discover himself through other people's responses. So she knows about choice and consequence and what it's like to see other people's in other people's eyes, rather, the monster [00:17:30] that is the perception of you. So he's recovering his memory through other people's eyes. She knows how that feels. If she had been allowed to make Monk a murderer, his life would have been pretty much a fictional projection of hers. But Leona and Leona Nela and Ballantine books were not brave enough to trust the American readers to accept a murderer as a likeable, positive person. So [00:18:00] the face of a stranger opens on the 31st of July. So she takes us back to 18 56 the other ones in the 18 eighties in a London hospital where a monk has lain close to death for three weeks. As consciousness dawns, he realises he can remember nothing. He does not know how he got there or even who he is, and this is a quote. Panic boiled up inside him again, and for a moment he could have screamed [00:18:30] Help me, somebody who am I. Give me back my life myself. He thinks he has a past, but he can't remember it. He has an identity, which he's unaware of. He's effectively No. One, and I think there's an interesting parallels to the way that, um Juliet Hume as Anne Stewart left New Zealand. But he does have an innate sense of self preservation, so he keeps [00:19:00] this knowledge to himself. Revealing his amnesia would only make him vulnerable. And somewhere back in the dark recesses of his damaged mind, he knows vulnerability is dangerous. On his release from hospital, he finds his rooms at 27 Grafton Street. He meets his housekeeper, Mrs Worley, and discovers himself for the first time in the mirror. And I think it's quite an interesting concept. He discovers himself in the mirror. The face [00:19:30] he sees looking back is a strong one he is dark with, and this is a quote, a broad, slightly aquiline nose, wide mouth, eyes, intense, luminous grey in the flickering light. It was a powerful face, but not an easy one. If there was humour, it would be harsh of wit rather than laughter. He estimates that he is anywhere between 35 and 45 years old, but it is in the in the [00:20:00] reaction of others that he begins to see the inner man. Colleagues are frightened of him. They cower at his cruelty and despise his single minded, selfish ambition. No one cares, and no one likes him. But is this really fear? After all, he was hearing only one side of the story. There was no one to defend him, to explain, to give us reasons and to say what he knew and perhaps did not. [00:20:30] And his greatest fear as he turns to work, returns to work at the Metropolitan Police force and begins to unravel the deadly bashing of Major Grey. As he goes through this first book, The Face of a Stranger, He's he's looking to see, whether he to find out whether he is the murderer himself, and that that's very much the worry for him through the whole book until the murder is resolved. It would not surprise Runcorn, his superior officer [00:21:00] at work, if he was revealed as the murderer. He feels some intense, unspoken animosity towards Monk that was never entirely untangled. Even in this book, Runcorn guesses Monk's identity crisis by spotting gaps in his memory. Towards the end of the book, Monk tells Hester Laie, who will later become his wife, a a usually independent, sometimes acerbic woman about his amnesia. So one person guesses, he tells [00:21:30] her, although throughout the book it's interesting Monk's murder case right through right Through that case, they squabble these two and monk and she is, you know, quite critical of him right through it and finds him really despicable at times. But when he admits that he has this missing memory, she's completely sympathetic. She thinks to herself how extraordinary and terrible. I do not always like myself completely, [00:22:00] but to lose yourself. I cannot imagine having nothing at all left of all your past or your experiences. And the reason why you love or hate things is the light side to Monk's darkness. Perhaps in that respect, she is rather too ideal. But she does possess a challenging, perceptive quality that Anne admires. She has a heartfelt content for hypocrisy and incompetence [00:22:30] and will not suffer fools. And this is a quote. She is highly intelligent, with a gift for logical thought, which many people found disturbing, especially men who did not expect it or like it in a woman. So that's a quote from the book. He is among the first women to join Florence Nightingale at Skari in Turkey, close to the carnage of the Crimean War. Her fine brain makes her invaluable in the administration for the hospitals and in dealing with the critically [00:23:00] injured. And it also when she returns and becomes part of Monk's life, it makes her a darn good sleuth. So for Anne amnesia, it's just a convenient means of revealing things retrospectively, a perfect device for the detective fiction writer because it leaves tracks of information obscure and suspenseful. But it is not the matter of forgetting that you have murdered someone that ignites her interest here, I think. And this, [00:23:30] I think, is quite personal. This in in a way that the notion of amnesia is quite a short lived, um, sensational thing. What I think matters to her in the face of a stranger is Monk's loss of self, the absence of an identity, the lack of a voice to explain the horror of seeing himself through others, eyes as brutal and cruel when he has to believe that this is [00:24:00] only part of the picture. So that's a bit of a look at her work and some relationships to her life. It was almost impossible thing getting Anne Perry on board with this book and I'm afraid it required some. I wouldn't say unethical but pushing the boundaries of what what I think is ethical. She turned me down twice. I took that as no, and but I felt like it was a story I needed to tell, and I had done a lot of work on it [00:24:30] previously. And it's part of my life. My mother was at school with Juliet Hume and Pauline Parker. I taught at girls high briefly when the decision was being made to whether they would lend the uniforms for Peter Jackson's movie. And I was, um, sitting in the theatre when Peter Jackson sort of bumbled onto the stage and and sort of introduced his movie. And so I'd sort of been there at quite a lot of the important moments of the story. [00:25:00] And so I felt like I wanted to tell it I. I did say I'd accepted the the negative reaction. Then, on on a flight back after filming uh, arts programme from on Marsh, I suddenly realised that I, perhaps her books were so rich and so interesting, and there was so much in the public domain. Perhaps I could write a book and it was sort of it was a epiphany for me. And so I I immediately went to the local cafe and I pounded out a proposal [00:25:30] and sent it into Harper Collins. And I think they were almost they were reluctant to accept it, Uh, because she wasn't participating in it. And what happened after that was that I had a, uh a crisis. I was so enthusiastic to get back in this contract. When I finally got it, I was looking forward to it. So so long and then I I just couldn't read her books anymore. I just couldn't go back there. I couldn't pick it up again. And I I couldn't really work out Why? And then I the more I sat there and thought [00:26:00] about it, the more I realised that it was because it was it was sort of like a rape. I felt it was dealing with someone's intimate life and intimate story without any of their awareness or participation or involvement. Well, actually, without any engagement at all. And so I rang up cons and I said, I don't know that I can carry on with this and and I was mulling it over, and my partner said, Why don't you just say you've got a contract? Go back to them again? And so I, um I did, And by the return [00:26:30] email, I got, uh, next morning, send us the proposal. So I actually did have quite a lot of the murder in the proposal at the front of it. And I felt that maybe that was some story that that was kind of the story she already knew. I did produce a little bit of that and send it back to half Collins. No, that was fine. And then I sent it to them and I got an email from Meg Davis and she said, Thank you very much. I'll send that on to Anne and we'll get back to you. [00:27:00] Um, that's very helpful. And 21 minutes later, there was another email and it and it said, um, an I meet you in London. It was a very strange thing. And I think that, um, people say to me, What was it? What was it that that turned her around? And I didn't actually ever ask her, because I was terrified that if she thought about it, really hard, she might say no. So this is what I did have as a sort of concluding paragraph. Um, it is amazing [00:27:30] to have discovered a voice for Juliet Hume in the writing of Anne Perry, and New Zealand needs to listen. It is time to move on from the 19 fifties, the details of which have been frozen in time and ground over long enough. In today's context, this is punitive and embarrassing. Ian Perry's story needs to grow to leave behind the terrible mistake of a young teenager and mature to acknowledge the remarkable adult [00:28:00] contribution and achievement of one of the world's most well known crime, DS. But one of the things that Anne Perry is very strong about and and is is just the lack of voice, the sense of powerlessness. I think that was what really got her involved. But of course they weren't very positive about me. And, um, what happened was we met, and two hours into this meeting I said, Would you mind if I turn the tape recorder on? And she said, No, that's fine. [00:28:30] And I think that was it II. I thought there would be some sort of orchestra playing somewhere. But no, there wasn't. It was just turning on. It was just an acknowledgement that now we could start. Um, kind of. I had full access to everything. I'm surprised I wouldn't have done it. And I read this This email. This is between Anne Perry's agents and her publishers. I don't think this particular author is the right person. That's me. She's based in New Zealand, which will put Anne's heckles up. [00:29:00] She's published a biography of Nia Marsh. She sent her academic CV, which would suggest her approach will be more focused on Anne's work and less on her life. However, she's not got much of a track record, and I think we could aim higher. That was quite bruising, actually, for my ego, and when I took it to me and I said, Oh, this is an interesting thing I read as she backpedalled, but not successfully enough to make me feel that much better, But so [00:29:30] essentially they felt that I had actually backed them into a corner, but they didn't know that my story or my back story to being there. I felt in many ways that really this has never been an authorised, Um, biography. This has probably been much more a hijack biography in a way. Certainly they still feel like that. But the issue is that she did participate, and I think that they were wrong about the fact that this person was the wrong person. In fact, I think a New Zealander was the perfect person [00:30:00] to write this biography, and I think someone from Christchurch, um, with those kind of connections who could actually put aside the world in which Juliet Hume was demonised and find the adult who's emerged from that world. And I think I think that was important and I think it was important and they didn't realise it because that wasn't their world. And I don't think they realised how much of Anne Perry is actually defined by her New Zealand experiences. [00:30:30] When I when I when I was there talking to her and I spent hours and hours and hours and hours with Anne Perry and I had hours and hours and hours of recordings, so many that I got, I bought an iPod so that I could walk around because I was getting, um, I was almost getting bed sores listening to the tapes, you know, from from my backside on the chair. So at one stage I said something about being crook, and she goes, she sort of has a wee bit of a laugh to herself, and I could see that she found it amusing, [00:31:00] and I suddenly realised that it was that expression that had made her smile. And I said, Everything about me must take you back to New Zealand. My accent must remind you of it. My expressions, everything must take you back there. And I said, Is that uncomfortable for you? And she said, Don't you think that the most defining shape and formative years of my life were spent in New Zealand? She said, This is familiar to [00:31:30] me, and I don't feel that angst ridden about it. In fact, I think going back there it was a wee bit like facing your demons in a way. In a way, she faced New Zealand and facing me, and I think it was much more comfortable for her than perhaps she expected, and perhaps less chilling in a way than I expected. What's been amazing for me is that one of the arguments I see echoed is the fact that Anne Perry controls [00:32:00] people. New Zealand is usually in the 19 fifties it was Juliet Hume controlling Pauline Parker. And in the 19 or the 2012, the same assumptions are being made. That is an appalling echo. It's a disgraceful echo for New Zealand not to be able to believe that New Zealanders have some ability to act [00:32:30] and think independently. This kind of echo is very uncomfortable and I. I hope you can see that, especially when I'm very used to, um, dealing, uh, with the, um, pressures of people wanting a certain story. Told, I've told my own story. I found my own voice in this, um, in this project and I've enjoyed it. I've enjoyed it thoroughly. I enjoyed talking to Anne Perry, and I've enjoyed writing and reading the books. And and in some ways it's been [00:33:00] a very, um, liberating and and enjoyable experience. And I've also in along the way met some fascinating people and some of them after the book has come out, which is interesting. And there's two people here today, um, Shona Murray and Elizabeth Simco, whose fathers were involved with the girls Care with Anne, particularly at A and at Mount Prison. But, um, I. I got a little bit from from Shona here, which I think is really, [00:33:30] um, really helpful, she says. Here it was interesting in in the book to read about Phyllis Freeman. She was a lifer, and she used to do the cooking at a She was Show, she writes, shows ultimate forgiveness for a person who used Strine to kill someone. But she writes here, my parents, belief in clean slates for people, whatever they had done became the foundation for [00:34:00] my teaching philosophy throughout my career, working with young people. And I think New Zealand should be proud of what it's done for both those women because it has allowed them to left New Zealand, uh, and lived useful, productive. And I think I I'd like to say redemptive lives. But, you know, maybe that's history will decide that, but certainly useful and decent ones, and I think that it's a credit to New Zealand that that's happened [00:34:30] lovely right through that face.

IRN: 703
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/dana_de_milo_on_carmen.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004092
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089386
TITLE: Dana de Milo on Carmen Rupe
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Dana de Milo
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; 1970s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Australia; Belinda Lee Borlase; Ca d'Oro (Auckland); Carmen Rupe; Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Carol de Winter; Chrissy Witoko; Dana de Milo; El Matador; Emmanuel Papadopoulos snr; Les Girls (Sydney); Linda Koolmann; Melbourne; Melbourne Gender Dysphoria Clinic; Motueka; Māori; Niccole Duval; Parliament buildings; Play Girls (Hong Kong); Powder Puff (referred to as the Powder Poof, Wellington); Rainton Hastie; Robert Jones; Sayonara; Sorrento Coffee Lounge; Sunset Strip; Sydney; Sydney Mardi Gras; Tete a Tete; The Balcony / Le Balcon; Trudy Kennedy; Wally Martin; Wellington; art-a-rama; black magic; brothels; burlesque; church; community; drag; education; exotic dancer; family; friends; gender identity; gender reassignment surgery; icons; identity; law; media; police; prison; relationships; safe sex; sex work; showgirl; snake dancing; striptease; transexual; transgender; trick; volunteer; whānau
DATE: 11 December 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Dana talks about her friendship with Carmen, working at The Balcony and sex work in the 1970s. Dana has also done another interview about growing up in the 1950s. Dana passed away on 12 February 2018.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hey, um, so this interview is more about, um, your relationship with Carmen and, um, I know that we mentioned it last time, but I was wondering, could you tell me again the story of how you and Carmen met? I first met her at the Kado Coffee Lounge and, um, Key Street in Auckland underneath the Great Northern Hotel. And I would say that would have been when I was 13, 13 or 14. [00:00:30] And she would. She was 10 years older than me. Exactly. So she was either, so she would have been 23 24 or something like that. So around that age and, um, she was dressed in a beautiful Cheong Sam and her own hair. Long was really long and hanging down. And she was really slim and really gorgeous. And I think I said last time that I followed her to the nightclub where she worked in Upper Queen Street, which doesn't exist now that street has been taken away. And Ray and Hasty had a [00:01:00] little strip club there, um, on the left hand side. And I used to go and I used to stand outside the door watching for the door to open and someone coming in or out or something to see if I could see her on stage. And in the end, she told the guy on the door that I could that he could let me in, and I would that I wasn't going to be any problem. You know, I could just sit in the back of the club and watch, you know, So and that was my first introduction into nightclubs, Really? And then I never saw Carmen again [00:01:30] until I would say, um 67 68 something like that 68 69 something around that time. Um, because 1967 I was a And that's when I turned 21 and the dollar came in. And when I came back from near Christmas, my [00:02:00] friend Chrissie gave me a job in the sun in the, um Powder. And then the Sorrento was still going at that time, and I was working part time for Linda Corman at the Sorrento, and then her brother wanted to sell, and she couldn't afford both the lot. So she asked Chrissy to go halves with her and they went in halves, and that's and it was when I was working at the Sunset Strip that Carmen used to come [00:02:30] in and she already had the building in Vivian Street. She'd already rented it or leased it. And she had Shelley and Belinda Lee were living were boarding with her in the place, and she was cracking it to, um, get the money to deck it all out inside. And so I would say it was probably 68 around 68. 69 that she opened her club, Uh, her her coffee lounge. About 68. I think it was. [00:03:00] And, um, it would have been 70 71. I was working for her because I've got that. As I said, I've got a photo, and how I know is because the only time I ever dyed my hair was when I was working there. I dyed my hair burgundy, and I've got a photo of me there and my hair is dark. And so it's about, and my mother was still alive. I still had burgundy hair when she [00:03:30] died, beginning at 72 so it's about 70 71. I was working for her as a waitress at the Coffee Lounge and not the coffee lounge. Um, at the, uh, it was called the balcony. We called it, but it was called La Balcon, but everyone called it the balcony. Um, and I was a waitress there for her and at one part of it, um, a lot of the girls were going to work in, um, [00:04:00] Hong Kong at PLAYGIRLS. And so a lot of them were going over there to work. And so she asked she was at me and at me if I would go on stage. So I went on stage for about a month and did, um, gold finger. Um, and I still got the little I've still got the the, um, the advert in the paper from the paper in my album, um, Donna de Melo. Um and and and that's when I changed. My name was because of Carmen, because [00:04:30] she said, um, if I put Darryl in the phone in in the paper, she said, I'll have every Maori in town here wanting to get in for nothing to come and see you. She said, So you'll have to change your name. And I thought, Oh, what am I change my name to? So she said, Well, I'll give you to do tomorrow because the ad's got to be in. So I decided I liked I always liked that name, and it was because I used the perfume taboo, which was quite an expensive perfume in those days. And, um, so I used [00:05:00] that name. And, um, De Milo came from an ex boyfriend. Um, he he was, um he was Maori Italian, and that's what's his surname. And it had two l's in it, but I took the one L out because demilo the Venus de Milo statue. I always loved that. And anyway, my girlfriend said to me, Well, why don't you use the, you know, the boyfriend's name? And I said, Um, oh, no, I don't really like me [00:05:30] And she said, Well, use de melo. You love Venice De Milo Use de Milo. So that's how it became my name. And, um, I work for her, I would say for probably a couple of years. I worked for Carmen and um became quite friendly with her, you know, used to go down sometimes during the day and meet her at the coffee lounge. I wasn't a great frequenter of the coffee lounge because we both sort of worked, you know, I didn't actually go there [00:06:00] after work. I used to go to the old sunset because that's where I had knocked around and worked myself, you know? And, um and that was more my style of person down there. I mean, um, at her coffee lounge, it was all the, um what could you say? The theatre type people. People coming from the theatre that had been near as cus, you know, customers of the patrons of the theatre. Um, gay guys, Um, and it really wasn't my scene. [00:06:30] And though I took my mother there two or three times and she absolutely loved it, she said it was the most fabulous place she'd ever been in her life. Plus the strip, the the the, um, nightclub. And it wasn't actually a strip club. It was more of a, um what would you call it? Well, it was a nightclub. You had. You had people that did all different kinds of acts. It just wasn't stripping. You know what I mean? It was Yeah, it was. She was amazed by it. Or she just thought that the coffee lounge she'd never seen anything so fabulous in her whole life because [00:07:00] it was wonderfully decked out, You know, she had stuffed animals, all sorts of things. Piano. Um, she had shawls and everything. And fans and beautiful pictures and ornaments. It was a really welcoming, loving place to go to. And she was quite She was a good boss to work for Carmen. I mean, um, people ripped her off blind. A lot of the girls ripped her off blind. It was a well known fact. You know, um, I never did because I was brought up by my mother. You don't shit in your own [00:07:30] nest, you know, you. And as I said, I learned from my experience by not going to work once because I got drunk and went on board a ship, and I never had a job the next day. So you learn very quick these things and and it it didn't interest me because I made a fortune in tips, because I I've always had a way with people, So I've made money. I've made more than my wages every night in tips, waitressing, and, uh, you know, whereas the other girls would hide around the corner as if it was taking a bit long to get your toasted [00:08:00] sandwich or something, I wouldn't. I'd go up and say, Would you like another coffee? You know, in the house or something. So whereas they'd hide around the corner and they didn't really know what to do, you know? So they say, How do you make so many tips? I said, because I just be nice and, you know, nine times out of 10, they wouldn't want a coffee. They just wanted to know what was going on. And I used to just make up a little story like, Oh, the the one of the sandwich machines is broken down. So it's taking a bit longer or something like that. Little did they know we only had two sandwich machines, [00:08:30] you know, and the place would be packed, you know. And, uh, we did have We did have meals there for a while as well in the beginning, but that wasn't didn't seem to be viable in the end. So it was toasted sandwiches and coffee and things like that. And, um, she, you know, I mean, I know some of the girls used to say Oh, say it was three Cokes. Oh, well, there's three Cokes, two for Carmen and one for me, you know, and and then it'd be half of it. And two cakes for me and one for Carmen. [00:09:00] You know, Carmen, they were terrible. She knew what was going on, I think. And and I mean, that's how lovely she was. She was a fabulous person. And as I think I said, I only ever heard her swear raise her voice and swear once in her life really lose her temper and swear once. And that was because, um, Belinda and, um, Tiffany Jones were being evil. And there's Carmen at the window, peeping through the curtain because across the road from where Carmen's Coffee [00:09:30] Lounge was was some factories and that and the guys used to go and sit outside and eat their lunch and that, you know, sit out in the sun on the footpath, and she was peeping through the curtain, you know, no clothes on and probably no teeth. And, you know, and they came along up beside her and went whoop and whipped the curtains open. And she's ah, and you fucking love. And that's the only time I'd ever heard of her really swearing or going Really getting angry. Um, and and she never usually used foul language. Or [00:10:00] she had a very good sense of humour. Very dry wit, like most libres. Um, she, um I can remember once, Um, this is later. She was in Sydney, and I lived in Melbourne but often used to go to Sydney. And when I went to Sydney, I went to visit her. You know, she would always want to take you out for something to eat. And it was always her shout. It was never you shout her. Anyway, this one time, I went up with some friends of mine, a friend of mine, Natalie, and we met another friend of ours in Sydney. Jason and we went and picked [00:10:30] her up and took her to, um, Fox Studios. You know, the film studios there, and and, uh, Warner Brothers and that that's up there in Sydney. And we took her out for lunch and we were paying for it. And we're sitting there, and we were talking about She was talking because Natalie had her nephew there, So we had to be She had to be careful and she was talking about being in jail but not saying it. So he knew and she said, Oh, did you ever have any of those boys stick their through the pe pole? And I said, Oh, yes. And I used to whack [00:11:00] it with my knife and she said, Oh, I used to say, Oh, how disgusting I couldn't about. And we would, you know, because of the pause that we were already either had something in our mouths or were drinking. And we just about spurted it all out over the table. It was just, you know, Oh, I couldn't have disgusting, you know? And then there was this long poisoning belt. So that was her kind of wit. You know, She was very, [00:11:30] very dry, very dry, very clever. And, um, I used to often see her in Sydney, and she can't used to come down and sometimes stay with me in in Melbourne when she was going to the, uh, Genis Foria clinic. And, um, she, um they were very mean to her. Really, because she was so, um was like me. They didn't pass me because I was tall and they didn't want to pass her because she was, um, a little bit over the top, being exotic [00:12:00] looking, you know? And and I mean, gosh, you know, there's, uh there's the straight people out there that dress over the top. I mean you, but this is the way they thought. And, um, it wasn't till Oh, not long before I came home. So about 12, 13 years ago that they they first of all, they said they lost her paper. They told her she had to go away and lose weight. So she had her stomach stapled in Sydney and nearly died. She lost so much weight, she nearly died. They had to reverse [00:12:30] it because she nearly it nearly killed her. She couldn't didn't wanna eat, which just wasn't like car. And, you know, she loved to eat loved cakes. Anyway, she revered. And then they said they lost her papers. This is the gender. Really? No. I mean, this is how kind she was. She should have sued them. I told her that. And then years later, like we we're talking like 20 years later, they all of a sudden they get in touch with her and say to her, Oh, we found your papers. Would you like to come down [00:13:00] and see us? So she went, came down all excited and and you know, I mean, she was over 60. Then I turned 50 she had been at my 50 I went to her 16, and it was after that. So she was over 60. Anyway, she got the days muddled up she had while she was there. She had to see two or three other the doctors on the board and her was She Mu mucked up seeing Trudy Kennedy and went to see Trudy Kennedy the day a day late. And I took [00:13:30] her and dropped her off and thought that she'd be there at least an hour and took off for an hour. Left her in South Yarra. And when I came back there, she was standing by the fence looking quite flustered, and I said, Oh, what's the matter? And she said, Oh, she said, Well, when I went in, she said she told, met me at the door and said to me, and and she used to have it in her. She had, like, a mock Tudor house. This, um, this psych psychologist and and She used to have the rooms in her in her home and she said, Well, she took me in the front door to the foyer where they used to have the desk, you [00:14:00] know? And she said, and she said, Oh, you're you're I'm just going out You were meant to be here yesterday anyway, where's your card? And that's your, um, Medicare card. And of course, it costs like three or $400 just to see you, you know, and the government pays it. She swiped it through and she said, Oh, we're looking at at your papers and, um discussing it with the other doctors She said, We we you've put the weight on again and came and said, Well, it's 20 years and I nearly died and she said, And, um, there's not much skin there. [00:14:30] It shrunk away to nothing, she said. Uh, we can give you a faux vagina for $3000 or something like two or $3000. And she said, What do you mean, a faux vagina? And she said, Well, it's a vagina, but it's there's no there's no vaginal passage. It'll just look like one. She and cut him and said, Oh, no, I'm not paying $3000 just for that, she said. I've gone this long in life. I might as well just stay the way I am. So, uh and I I was when I got back, she was standing in the sun poor thing and [00:15:00] been standing there probably for three quarters of an hour or half an hour, and she was quite a bit stressed out. And I said, You know, come and really you you should sue them I said, because that's really bad. That's real bad to do that to you. I said, All this time you've waited and then they call you back and give you this hope and then tell you're going to give you a fax vagina. Why? Why can't they do the real thing? You know, if you're willing to to you know, to and and she said, Oh no, I don't want to do that It might ruin it for the other girls And that's what we [00:15:30] always used to think. We'd never say anything to these doctors that used us as guinea pigs, and many of us were used as guinea pigs for boobs and everything. We never said another word. If they even if they absolutely, you know, botched us up is because we didn't want to stuff it up for for another girl coming along. You always thought about your your sisters that were coming along. And what would happen if you didn't? And everything's shut down and no one gets in and out, you know? So it was really quite sad. Um, was it always a dream of Commons to [00:16:00] to have the full change? Yes, it was. I mean, she made light of it in the end, because you do you you you, um you you just get on with it, You know what I mean? But she often says if you listen to any of her things, the only thing she regrets is that she didn't go to Egypt to have her sex change. And you know, when she could have gone and she should have gone, you know, And she didn't. That's her only regret. It was because she never got it, you see? And she thought she should get it in Australia for nothing. [00:16:30] But of course, you know, as it was, they wanted two or $3000 out of I can't remember it was two or three just to make a very vagina, you know? And, um but that was Yeah, that was her dream. She did wish that she had it. And, um, I wasn't I wouldn't say that. I was a, um, a bosom buddy of his, Um and really, I don't know that Carmen had bosom buddies just quietly. Carmen was a very private person. [00:17:00] Carmen did not ever have a live in lover that I know of. And all the years I knew her, and I asked her once and she said, No, I think she did once when she was still addressed as a male. But she said that No, she didn't want to spend the whole night with someone. She wanted her privacy. She liked to be on her own, you know. And so consequently, she never, ever had, uh, she had [00:17:30] lots of lots of boyfriends, right up until before she died. She had guys that still used to come and visit her and that, especially the Italian and Greek guys and Arab guys. They loved her, you know, And, um, she she was a very popular, but yeah, she never, ever, never, ever had a live in lover. Yeah, and she did dabble in my in the early days in Black Magic. I know that when she had the coffee bar at the top of the stairs, in the corner was a coffin with a skeleton [00:18:00] in it. And sometimes she used to sleep in the coffin. Yeah, she did. She practised black magic quite a bit. And then as she got older, she reverted back to Christianity in S in Sydney. She got involved, she got involved with in Sydney and she got involved with the, um, New Zealand, Um, like a church for New Zealand people to go. And there's a part of the cemetery in one of the cemeteries up there. Where she's [00:18:30] buried is part of it, like a New Zealand cemetery, you know, And that's why she wanted to stay there. She didn't want to come home. She wanted to stay in Sydney and be buried in Sydney because they did go there to try and bring her back. But it was her wishes to stay in Sydney, and she's buried in Sydney and I forget her. She's just crossed the road from Ricky May or someone like that. Someone quite famous. You're not far from anyway, which is quite lovely, really. Um, and, um, whenever she came home, [00:19:00] when I came home to whenever she came to Melbourne, I always used to be around, pick her up, and then, uh, and as I say, she was rather private, so she never only ever once stayed with me. Um, she always usually stayed in a hotel because, as I said, you know, she liked to do her own thing. And, um, when I came home to live in New Zealand back to New Zealand, I always used to go and pick her up when she was because they were always flying her back to open something or do something they haven't got her. Now, I don't know what they're gonna do when [00:19:30] they want to open things in Wellington because it was always or a nightclub in Auckland or something. They'd always get car and as a draw card, you know, and, um, often she would come and stay. I pick her up from the airport or take take her to the airport, and if they supplied a hotel, Um, you know, one time when she came back for the black and white ball, my friend and I, um it was three of us. Four of us put it on. And it was to put out Chrissy's name for the we took or trust. [00:20:00] And, uh, she came back and she stayed with Gypsy who's now passed on to who who used to work for her at the coffee lounge and, uh, the balcony. And I mean that they were all still going when I left and went to Australia. You know, she didn't leave until the early eighties to go back to Sydney, and and she was wanted to see for a tax evasion because all the money that had gone through the place and she she hadn't paid tax, you see? And, um, [00:20:30] apparently I heard later that it was, uh, that the GA a guy had helped her set it up because it was sort of a a tax dodge for him, Sort of, you know, but, um, yeah, I wasn't here when it closed down, but I've got a photo of her, um, with um, Chrissy and, um, another lady that owned the Sunset Strip. You know, she had a farewell at, uh, Saint James. Is it in [00:21:00] street there? I think it's in ST James or the Majestic. One of them. She had her farewell, and Chrissie put it all on for her when she went back to and that was about 1982. I think she went back to Sydney to live, But she was a very loving, you know, People would always talk about her about her being a prostitute and being this and being that. But you couldn't meet a kinder, more loving, generous person. You know, she always would, [00:21:30] Would help, would help. You would try to help you. You know, I used to go and see her in Sydney. She was. And if I didn't go out with her, well, she was trying to stuff money down my bra, You know, for me to buy a coffee and a sandwich or was gone on the way home, You know, driving back, which is like eight hours, you know, to drive back and, um, from Sydney to Melbourne. And, um, it was, as I said, it was only a couple of times I ever could trick her into shouting her out because I I arrive and she'd say, Pick me up or meet me at such and such a restaurant. It's [00:22:00] already ordered and paid for. You know, she'd already paid for whatever you know. So she was very, very kind, very, very much loved. And we we missed her very dearly. You know, we don't ever a to her anymore. She now she's gone. Um, it's the end of the era. Now she's gone. She really is the end of that era, you know, of the nightclubs and coffee bars. And and, um and and And people like her and Chrissy were the [00:22:30] people that gave all of us girls a job because, as I said, you know, last time I spoke to you, if you had a beetle haircut and you wore the modern clothes, you're a if you're a guy. And if you were a girl and DRI dressed like you know, the oh, she was a slut. You know, you just you just weren't accepted, just wasn't accepted. And those girls were the ones that gave us all a chance, you know, gave us a job. Um, she always dressed beautifully in the days of the coffee bar [00:23:00] and everything. She always had lovely clothes, lovely jewellery. And, um, she paid us well, paid us better than most other people did. Um and, uh, yeah, she was She was a great person to work. And I admired her because she wasn't a liar or a thief. You know what I mean? I mean, near the end, I think she got a little bit, um, wound up in her own legend because she used to say she was the first here in in Wellington, but she wasn't. [00:23:30] Chrissy was here before her. But Chrissy, as I said, wasn't a person that sought out. Um um, what would you say? Um, self promotion where Cameron was a great self promote. I mean, I can remember her saying to me once, Donna, don't tell the press I'm coming home when you come to pick me up. Please don't tell the priest, All right? I won't say a word, and I'd arrive to pick her up, and the place would be and the airport would be full of pressers and she'd be all lipsticked up it. [00:24:00] And I said to her one day when I was had her in the van and I was taking her to the hotel. I said, I know you. I know what you're up to. You ring up and go. Do you know that Trevor Roper is coming back? She said all spru I sprang, girl. So she'd already done it herself. No wonder she was saying, Don't say anything because she'd already done it the best self promoter [00:24:30] around and good on her and got her lots of trips back home and everything, you know, and and, I mean, she was very well respected. I mean by, um, the same as Chrissie. They They were people that can move across all genres of people, you know, They knew politicians they knew and ladies and lords and they knew prostitutes and ship malls and lesbians and and the street people, you know, like they they still had time for them. Like her. And Chrissy [00:25:00] always let in the street people, You know that, like, you know, you'd have the bag lady or something, you know, And I could remember, you know, um, they let she let her in, and you go down the back there, go down around the corner, the idea and we'll fix up with the same. And we say to her, Oh, why do you let her in? Well, there might be a day when it will be only her toasted sandwich and cup of coffee that will get me. You know, we used to go along afterwards and spray the seat with Glenn 21. And but, you know, she and Chrissy was the same [00:25:30] as that. They never turned people. They never forgot where where we all came from. In the beginning, you know? So and and they traversed all genres of people. And it was, um It was an absolute pleasure to know her, actually, because as I said, she wasn't a thief. She wasn't a liar. Um, she was a really lovely, genuine person, a person that that had a real heart, you know, and would never see anybody struggle [00:26:00] or especially sisters, you know, Or gay people that went for everybody, but especially her own. You know, she would make sure they were all right. I mean, you know, it was nothing for her to be in Sydney in the soup kitchen, dishing out cordial or soup or whatever. You know, with all her jewels and everything. She she volunteered her time for lots of things like that. You know, she was never too proud to do anything like that. Um, and she came from a really loving family that loved [00:26:30] her. And, you know, she wasn't ostracised by her family or anything. They really cared about her. She had she loved her mother very dearly. And her, uh, her sister, um, that still lives in. They were very close to, um And what else? Anything else you want to know? Um, and I know that she, um I can tell you that I know that she, um she first went to Sydney in the fifties, the late fifties and was working there. [00:27:00] And, um, she used to do an act with snakes and things and carpet snakes, and she used to keep them in baskets, you know, and, um and I'm not sure whether it was on the stage, but I know that I'm not sure if it was in the clubs, but I know that she for private dudes, anyway, she used to do the wig at the very end. And people were just absolutely flabbergasted, you know? And I mean, and that was when she was quite [00:27:30] slim and gorgeous, you know? And that's when she just finished in Sydney when she came back, as I say 1961 62 or something. And then she went back to Sydney and then she was back, came back again, you see? And it was in Auckland, I think in 1966 I think it was 66 or 67 that that the police tried to have her up for, um, being in disguise sort of thing because she was caught in a in [00:28:00] A that they stopped. She was in a car with a guy that was taking her home. I'm probably going to crack it with her. But anyway, he was taking her home, and the police tried to, um, have her up for yeah, for impersonation and all. And she took it to court and a guy stood up in court and said, Look, I was only driving her home, you know, from work La la, la. And the judge said that there is no law and and I we already knew this, but that there is no law against dressing [00:28:30] in the opposite sex as clothes, unless to do it with a Felonious intent, Uh, example blacken face or something like that. You see? So so that that it was thrown out of court, which made it much easier for the girls in Auckland because they were very heavy in Auckland. They were They were heavy here, but they were even heavier in Auckland. Really? They really were pretty heavy. And, um and then and then she came to Wellington. I mean, there's not a lot I can tell you. I know that she was, [00:29:00] um, quite well fed in Australia. She was very well respected, just like she was respected here. Um, she was always in the, um, Mardi Gras on the float. They always had a float around Carmen with their breasts hanging out. Um, and they inducted her not once, but twice. I think into the Hall of Fame, and and she was like a, um I I've got some of their cards, and it has on all the things that she [00:29:30] that they they bestowed upon her. They loved her a lot because she did a lot of con condom, you know, with the AIDS foundation and all that. Handing out condoms and giving her and and then Also, she was, um, for quite a while. She was a, um, a receptionist in a brothel. You know, she used to reception for the girls. Um, until it got a bit hot and some and someone said, Oh, you better be [00:30:00] careful. You might lose your flat and your pension. So she stopped doing that because, you know, someone sort of gave her that hint. I think that, you know, she might get had up for working as well as being on the, you know, I mean, working. I mean, you know, just to make ends meet, Really. You know, probably sat there all day for 80 bucks or something, but it's 80 bucks, you know what I mean? And then from there, she progressed to being the, um They had a where she lived, um, the block of flats at a community [00:30:30] hall. And she was the caretaker of the community hall and look after it and clean it and make cups of tea and all that just in her element and I, and also cleaning the the stairs and that. And I think that's how she broke her hip. She fell down the stairs cleaning the stairs I think. Dana, can I just take you way, way, way back to when you were 13. And when you [00:31:00] first saw Carmen on stage, can you recall what you thought? Was this the first time you had ever seen somebody like car? Um, what do I think? How fabulous she was. You know, cause, um um I'm trying to think what she did that she I think she stripped down to Yes, it was a G string. And, um, [00:31:30] a bit of if I remember rightly, because in those days, you weren't allowed to go without a G string unless you wore a me a merkin. And that came in later, I think. Which was like a piece. It was shaped like a um it was a a clip on, um, G string with no straps. And it had hair on it. It was a fake, like a fake vagina. Really? But it [00:32:00] was all here, if you know what I mean. That was what they called a and it was made of wine. It sort of clipped on somehow. I don't know, girls often wore that, but if I remember rightly in those days, you couldn't take your G string or your bra off. I don't think that came. That came a bit later. And then it was art Rama, and you could stand in the nude. As long as you didn't move, the lights would go off and the girls would go all around the different positions and then light going [00:32:30] on. And you had to stand perfectly still because you weren't allowed to move. If you moved, you could be arrested. Um, And then, of course, things change, but yeah, seeing her for the first time, Um, it was just amazing. You know? I just couldn't believe it. She was stunning on stage. And as I say, she was in her prime. Then she was in her twenties, you know, and looked absolutely amazing. And it was still slim and stunning. Um and yeah, that would be the first time I had ever seen, um, a queen on [00:33:00] stage. Yeah. I had been in the clubs and seen girls on stage, but I'd never seen Yeah, uh, one of us on stage at all. Yeah. II, I I've seen girls sort of do it in a party strip down to nothing in a party or something. you know, just with the Met, with the sailors and things. But, um, not not not like that, you know, on a beautiful on a stage with beautiful costumes and backdrops and everything you know. [00:33:30] And she mined first and then did her number, you know, and, um, I just can't remember what the number was, but, I mean, she was absolutely fabulous. Can you describe for me what the balcony was like? What did it look like? What was inside it? The balcony was all done out with the, um I've got a piece of it somewhere at home. Um, she had Egyptian pain, had Egyptian like Sphinx and all those sort of things all painted inside was very [00:34:00] quite quite opulent. And so it was a very tasteful nightclub. Beautiful, big. A really big stage with a long catwalk that came right down in amongst the customers, the first of its kind. Like that here in in New Zealand. Really? She really designed it with a fabulous long catwalk that went right down and it had tables right up the side of it. You see, so and around the front of it, so that when the girl came down. The tables were right beside the like. There's there's the catwalk. There's the tables right [00:34:30] up against the catwalk, you know? So the the people were really And it wasn't just guys that came. It was couples. It was couples that used to come to the nightclub. You know, it wasn't just men or men on their own, like a lot of the sleazy nightclubs. You know, you go to that what you hear about in the old days, you know, strip clubs and the and the picture theatres that they had later on In times where girls did strips between movies and things, this was was classy. It was done with class, you know, and [00:35:00] you all had to dress nicely when you waitressed. You all had to be groomed nicely and everything and and, um yeah, and it was It was It was beautifully done. Red table cloths with, um, stainless steel, um, sugar bowls with the lids on them and had little racks on each table. It looked like an umbrella with upside down, you know, with the handle up. And and they were little spikes coming [00:35:30] out without the umbrella part without the material and we used to put all that used to fold your, um um serves up and fit them on and and fold them so that they were little little points that they go in and sit inside the umbrellas. You know, um, on every table they were black and, um, sugar bowls on every table. And, um, yeah, it was very nice. It was very nicely done out. What kind of atmosphere? In terms of, like, [00:36:00] kind of lighting and mood. Um, typical nightclub, low lighting, Um, mood lighting, mood, mood, music and things like that, You know, Not not. Um, whereas, you know, um, Darrel Manuel would have blasting out the stripper as the runner all the time coming out. And it was out on Cuba Street every night. You could hear that on the corner. It was coming blasting out in between shows. You know, um, hers was more, [00:36:30] um, more jazzy. Mood music. She used to play in between shows and things like that. Um, yeah, whereas his was really burlesque, his was more of a club and more more of a and and specialty acts like the fire act and, uh, paint acts and paint was the girl would, um, paint herself all over with all different coloured paints, and the lights would go off and they'd be all, um, they'd all be What do you call it? Uh, [00:37:00] like fluo in the light. You know, that would all come up with the with the, um what do you call the light? The blue light they use, um um the strobe light. And that brings out different colours. You know, if you've got paints that have got stuff in them that, you know, oranges and the greens and the all these colours and the girl would paint herself all over, and then they turn the lights off, you know, and, um and every girl had a really a real class act to do, you [00:37:30] know, like one girl, um, Ray, when she used to have this number where she had on, um after she took off a beautiful gown and everything she'd have on this she had on this black bikini and it had two hands on the bum on the cheeks and two hands on the on the bra. And and then they turn the strobe light on, and all you'd see were these white hands and she'd jiggle her, um, breasts. And it looked like he was rubbing her breast, and then she'd wiggle her ass. It was like he was playing [00:38:00] with her arse. You know, uh, and you know, another one was Belinda Lee used to do an, um, quiet village. She used to do a number inside a like a cage, like a like a a girl. That's with a with a fur draped around her, you know, like a silver fox draped on her. And like like a girl looking all rough and sort of, um, you know, and that she was like, girl had been brought up with wolves or something like that. That was in intimating another one was, um uh, [00:38:30] Belinda Lee would, um, strip out of a, um, a gorilla costume, which was just amazing. This gorilla costume was came from Hong Kong, was just amazing. And she'd come through and they'd play this music and and she'd make grunting noise on it, Walk around like a like a gorilla. People actually thought it was a gorilla. They were a bit scared of it, and then I I can remember the very first time I ever saw it done [00:39:00] was in Auckland. She did it in Auckland, and and I remember the to climb up the pole and everything. And I remember when she she go up to the stage and she'd turn back on, she'd take off the head and you'd hear people go tap and then undo the costume. And she'd step out in a bikini or she'd have on is a bikini one clip in her hair like that and pull it out. And the hair would just fall down her back and she'd be in these high plastic, clear, plastic high heel mules, you know, and just step [00:39:30] out of this. And people would just couldn't believe that this beautiful looking girl and she was she had a fabulous body. Belinda Lee would just step out of this, um, and turn around. And there's this beautiful girl big breast standing there, you know, looking absolutely glamorous. They couldn't believe it because it really looked like a real gorilla. It was, You know, people were quite frightened of it. It was quite amazing. And she Yes, she had all kinds of different acts. They were all different, all entertaining, you know. And she had lots of, [00:40:00] um, what we call production numbers. She opened with a production number. Like for six months. They might have. I'm not sure if it was three months or six months, they'd have a show, and it would have Maybe, um, having a heat wave would be the opening. You know, we're having a heat wave, and all the girls would be in this in, in, in, in, um, lovely costumes. You know, um, all matching and all dancing, and then you'd have another production in the middle, and then you'd have another production at the [00:40:30] end. And in between would be the spot up. Girls would do their spot numbers, but what we called spots, which was individual acts, you know, And, um but she Yeah, she always had really good shows on very good shows. Um, and you performed as well? Only for a month. I didn't like it. It wasn't wasn't my kind of thing. I don't know what it is about me. Um, you know, I worked as a prostitute and everything, but I have had maybe because I was an only child, I had great difficulty in undressing [00:41:00] in front of somebody that I didn't really know. Um I didn't mind the miming. I didn't mind any of it. I just hated having to sexily stand there and get people to take my clothes off me. And I mean, they'd be shaken. Luckily, I didn't mind walking out in a bikini or or a AAA G string and a and a sand dreamer. I didn't mind any of that. It was just having to do the sexy sort of thing and get someone to undress you. I just couldn't [00:41:30] wait to get my gear off and stand there. Hope put my hand up, ready for the music to stop. You know, you'd stand at the back post with one hand on your hip and put your arm up. And that was a That was the sort of that gave Rosa, who just died last year, um, gave gave her a signal that you have finished your act, you know, finished your act so she would turn the turn the music down, but, um, yeah, I didn't really like I didn't like I didn't like the camaraderie behind stage. It was, um [00:42:00] Well, let's face it to be on stage, you have to be rather want to be the centre of attention. You you have to be pretty, um, up yourself in lots of ways. And I really wasn't that, um and I really didn't want to be the centre of attention. It just happens that I'm tall, that I have to be the centre of attention, whether I liked it or not. But I actually didn't and I didn't like the way the girls were sort of bitchy to one another behind. You [00:42:30] know, if if they could if they what? We what we used to call sabotage. If you could sabotage somebody else's act, they would. It was about survival of the fittest. I suppose in those days was about who was the best and and and and how good you were. Whether you got a good whether you got good wages, whether you stay whether your job was safe. I suppose it was all to do with that. I didn't like it. I couldn't wait to get dressed and get back out and be a waitress. I never stayed behind stage. I went out and was a waitress in between acts. Um, [00:43:00] yeah, I didn't like it, and I only did that for, as I say for a month, And I've only ever, ever performed once since. And that was for the, um Who They had it here in Wellington. And we we had it at, um they had, um, something at te papa on. So at least I can say, Well, I did it once on the stage at on on on te papa in the on, You know, I mean, um, [00:43:30] what's the names? Wanted me to go this time up to the You know, when you're gonna perform. I said no, I'm not. I'm not going. I said I'm not. I'll go, but I won't perform. I said, That's not what I am. It's not who I am. You got it once. And it was only because you wanted me as a diva and asked me to do one number and out of respect for you, this is, uh, a And then I said, out of respect for you, I've done it the once only and I enjoyed it. But I wouldn't do it again. Not interested. It's [00:44:00] not me. Even though deep down, I would love to have been a showgirl, not a stripper, a showgirl in Vegas you know, with the with the with the backpack of feathers and the great big headdress. And you know all the diamonte hang off and just strut around. Yeah, that that I could do No problem. Could have would have done I'd love to have been Yeah. Um, actually, my my dream was to be a Blue Bell because they were all girls over 6 ft. And, um, that's the kind [00:44:30] of thing I would have liked to have done and not be a stripper or AM or or any of that I'd like to have been a showgirl. Um, so yeah, and we didn't really have that sort of thing. So, you know, if you were a show girl, you had to do a number as well. So you know, So I only ever did spots I was never in a, um I was never in. Um, I only did the one spot on each show, and that was, um, Goldfinger. And I used to do it out of a gold mesh. [00:45:00] Do the mime, you know, like a web. And then, yeah, stripped to it. But, um, I only did it because she begged me to, because she was short of staff because at the time she had, um Belinda Lee, Um Nicole Deval Carol de Winter and maybe even Tiffany. They were all in. They were all in Hong Kong. The main girls were all in Hong Kong working for playgirls. Um, because, you know, um, we used to [00:45:30] have sailors from all around the world come in. And they said that New Zealand had the best drags they'd ever seen in their lives. Because a lot of Maori girls, you see, and they're very uns spring all those Maori girls, and they just couldn't believe all the girls and how glamorous we were. You know, they said Sydney. Yeah, you go to lay girls and you see it and that sort of thing. But, you know, for so many girls in one place, Wellington was the place because everybody came to Wellington. [00:46:00] We used to call it the Queen City, not Auckland. We were the Queen City. And, you know, lady, we used to say we used to say, You know, lady, come when the word tranny came out was they'd say, Oh, yeah, You come down Wellington with your with your tranny wheels, you know, learn you. The trainee was and learned to be a trainee and then disperse around New Zealand and they did most. You'd see that most girls came to to Wellington. Even the girls from Auckland all came to Wellington and lived for a for usually [00:46:30] for quite a while, you know, because it was easier down here than it was in Auckland at that time. Was there a distinction between a drag performer and transgender person? Whereas like nowadays, you know, there there was quite a distinction between somebody doing dragons. I'll tell you now, Carmen's they didn't no one knew who was who. If Carmen's was never advertised as a drag show ever. It was a cabaret. People [00:47:00] got out that there were queens that worked there, but no one ever knew who it was. And it was so funny being a waitress because I used to hear it and they go and there was one girl we had working there. And then what was her name? She used to do? Um she used to wear strobe pasties and thing, and she used to turn the turn the strobe lights on. And because she had saggy boobs, she had about five kids and she used to do, um, [00:47:30] tasseling with her boobs. One go one way and one the other go together, up and down all around and, um and of course, they used to say, There's one That's one. And she and they used to pick all the real girls as being the drags they never knew. It was never openly. It was only that that Wally Martin started a a truth, the truth. And he brought Carmen undone. I mean, most of the guys that cracked it with the businessman that didn't have a clue that she was a man. He brought [00:48:00] her undone. And that's when when when she started to get publicity and she turned it on them, she made it to suit. She made it for her sake instead of them making a fall out of her. She became quite clever at manipulating and be coming across as she was a lovely person, you know, And, um and and that's when she got into trouble because she's they they were talking about, you know, having [00:48:30] queens working in the coffee bar and all the rest of it. Da da da da da, and she said Yes, well, half of Parliament's you know, she's brought up about them being gay and bisexual. And of course, it caused a big, big hell of ball. And she had to go to, you know, first of all, she was going to have to publicly, um, publicly retract her statement and apologise, and then ended up being in a room full of of people and just talking and what it was, is She wasn't allowed [00:49:00] for so many years to divulge what she knew was Parliament. She was given a parliamentary edict or whatever they call it, that she wasn't allowed to speak about any of those matters for X amount of years. Because she she said, It's I can prove it, you know she wasn't going to back down. And there's that famous photo of her standing on Parliament steps all in black with white bloody shoes on, waving to [00:49:30] everyone. And the guys were were building the new beehive, you know, and they were all whistling and yahoo to her because most of them have been to a coffee land or a club or something, you know, and, you know, And when she was in there, she asked to go to Lou and the and the Usher showed her to the woman's toilet. And she said, Well, there you go. You see? But, you know, they made a big thing out of it and she never even even apologised. She said I never even a when it came down to it. It was never an apology. Offered [00:50:00] was just that. They demanded that she not write because she was going to write a book, you see, And and of course, they demanded that she didn't put anything about that in the book. And I mean, you know, Paul Carmen got ripped off her whole life through because Carmen was not a real good business woman come money wise. She had wonderful ideas. She was a wonderful front person. She was a fabulous hostess. Um, all of that. But, you know, it's a bit like a lot of [00:50:30] you're either a real good business person and you don't have a good you know and don't have a good front of house manner where she had the front of house and Manor. But she didn't have the business critique at the back. So, um, you know, it's like that horrible. You know Bob Jones, sir. Bob Jones. I mean, he's got an absolute cheek. He wrote something very nasty about her long before she died. But he wrote, you know, he called her a lumbering Maori bloke from the king country. [00:51:00] Well, she was never like that. Carmen wasn't the couldn't walk on high heels. He tried to say, and she was as thick as two things. Well, I must admit, Carmen was a bit thick when it came to um and I don't mean that to be rude. Carmen wasn't well educated. She left school quite young. Um, she was not. She wasn't a really literate, if you know what I mean. She wasn't She could read and write, but barely, if you know what I mean. She wasn't, um, Carmen, always. Also [00:51:30] because she had failing that. But Carmen always used a big A text that big letters when she wrote, you know, with a text with a text of pen and that, um, she wasn't. Yeah, she wasn't. She wasn't well read, but that doesn't make you a bad person. And I mean, and he rode on her coattails. I mean, he was the one that was behind her when they when she was going for mayor, and they liked what she stood for. And she said that they should make the whole of Vivian Street all strip clubs and brothels. And then it's easy to protect to police. [00:52:00] It's easy to look after, you know, And And she was right, you know, Everything that she stood for in those days has become law, legal prostitution, Um, you know, places for gay men to go and cruise clubs as they are now. All of that she brought thought of all of that in the in the seventies. She wanted all of that, and and most people were for it. But, uh, you know, and then and then he goes and writes in the bloody Dominion [00:52:30] that a horrible write up about her, which I thought was very unkind and uncalled for, but because all of a sudden he doesn't want his name Associated. You know what I mean? I I'm a now. I don't want to be known to be as associate. And yet it was him that pushed her to be mayor and promoted her and used to ride in the car with her and everything I mean and then to turn around. And I just thought it showed what he's about because I didn't think he needed [00:53:00] to do that. I think he could have been quite pleasant and nice and say, Well, you know, I got on very well with Carmen, but he he he carried on about, you know, she didn't know what to say half the time. And Carmen didn't because Carmen hated talking. She hated coming home and doing these talk things. She loathed it. It wasn't his scene, you know. But she did it and, you know, and she used to say to him, Well, you know, what do I have to say? Tell me what? Tell me again what I need to say, because, you know, she didn't want to forget it and and, [00:53:30] Yeah, and he used all of that sort of thing to write a nasty story about it. And I just thought it was very of him to do such an I don't think he needed to. You know, she had more, um, finesse in her little finger than you got in your whole body. You know, at least she was a lady and she always acted like a lady. You know, I realise that we're coming to the end of time. Um, can I just ask you, um, can you tell me what the, [00:54:00] um, sex work and the balcony? How did that work? The balcony had nothing to do with sex work. Really? Um I mean, if you met someone and had an assignation with them, that was your business. Was the coffee lounge that they used to. She used to do the tea C business, and I don't know much about that. Um, she had bro. She Yes, she had a she and that that actually came along more after I left. It probably was going [00:54:30] on before I went. Went because I I didn't go to the coffee lounge a lot. You know what I mean? So, um, but that teacup business I knew nothing about that until it came out. But I, I do know that she also had a brothel in at one part of it there. And, um yeah, but that's all when I went to Australia. So those are the years I don't know much about. I mean, she had a boarding house years ago in Auckland when she was living in Auckland in Grafton, she had a boarding [00:55:00] house. She offered she usually whenever she lived. If she had more than one bedroom or so, she'd always have borders. She's taken the girls or gay guys. Like in Auckland. She had the boarding house. She had gay guys, that business. Guys that worked that used to live there, come home for meals and all that sort of thing. But like Marlene did here Marlene Swan. Um, but yeah, a lot of it. You see, I miss because I went to Australia in 77 and then I never saw her until the late eighties or something when she started coming [00:55:30] to Melbourne because I hadn't been to Sydney. Oh, I lie. I went to Sydney in 76 and I saw her in 76. No, I didn't because she wasn't there. No, she wasn't there. I never saw her until the eighties. I'm wondering if you because you you were also involved in sex work. Um, back in the sixties and seventies, just to paint a picture of what that kind of work was like at that time when he worked as a girl. [00:56:00] No, they guys didn't know what you were. I worked on the street because, um, I could pick them up, all right, in the coffee lounges and that. But when I stood up, they fainted. Wasn't so bad if I walked across the room and they picked me. It was when they came to see me at the table. And, of course, and then 6 ft three of you unravels from behind the coffee table. They sort of go, you know, uh, so I found. And also being short sighted. I'm short sighted and always have been that I wouldn't see the client [00:56:30] until it was too late, and somebody else would pounce on them. So I found that it was better for me to work on the street. So I used to work Cuba Street, and I worked it before. It was a mall from from, um, Dickson Street up to I used to do and then up to Vivian. Then they put them all in, and then I used to work from up, and I used to pick the guy, pick them up in cars and take them up to Mount Victoria. And, [00:57:00] um and and they never knew the score, and you'd get them so excited that by the time you got them up there that you'd never they'd never have sex with you. By the time you got it out of the zip, it was just about over love. And if it wasn't over by the time you put your mouth on it, it was. And you know, you you knew what to do. You get the guy all excited, you know? And as soon as he'd say, Don't don't, don't don't touch. Don't. You're not right? Got you. So I'd be licking the air and playing with the and I think you got to keep that momentum. I used to think, and I and [00:57:30] the same guys that get tricked the same time I go. Oh, and I did want six, too. Not even I didn't want to have sex in the back of a bloody car. It was too too difficult to do trick sex in the back of a bloody car. Mind you, I've done it, but it was very difficult, but, um yeah, um and and it was you picked up you picked up from the bar Bistro bar you picked up from nightclubs you picked up on the street. You know, wherever you were, you were always on the lookout for business. You know, looking for business, [00:58:00] darling, stop the car, then. Looking for businesses. Jump in. Away you go. You know, um, but II I mean, and it And I only did that when I wasn't before I started working in the nightclubs, you know? And when I worked in the nightclubs, Well, then you'd pick up. You might pick up one at the end of the night or something that was hanging around waiting for you. I'd say to you, I'd love to go home with you. And I'd say you'd say, Oh, well, it cost the same mate. And they'd say, Yeah, and if they waited, they waited. If they didn't, they didn't. You know, [00:58:30] there was always somebody around. Really. Um, but once I had a job, mind you that the pay wasn't that good. So you still had to crack it to make ends. I mean, I mean, before I went to Australia in 1976 I had three straight jobs and I would be lucky if I had $3 left at the end of the week. I had to crack it on my day off, which was Sunday to go out and get pissed. That was what it was like. I worked at the Grand Hotel. I worked as [00:59:00] a in the kitchen, and at lunchtime I worked as a waitress. And then I worked in the kitchen after lunch and did the dishes. Um, and after that I used to work in the bar in the afternoon, um, serve dinner and then wash the dishes after that, do the dishes and then work back in the bar. And when the when the hotel closed, I used to go and work in at Chrissy's or somewhere like that at the sunset or somewhere like that, till four or something five in the morning and go home and sleep for two or three hours and go back to work again. [00:59:30] And I had no money, and I was nearly 30. I was 29 when I went to Australia and I had my 30th birthday there, and um, no, I didn't. I had my 31st birthday. There I went. No, no, no, No. 30. I had my 30th. I left in 76 1st of March 76. I turned 30 in August. Uh, 29th, um, same day as Michael Jackson. Um, and when [01:00:00] I left, I it was like there was no way in the world I was going to be ever able to get any money to do anything, to have my change or have anything, you know, because there just wasn't any money left. You know, it's not really much different to what it is today. Wages were always poor. Rent was always high. Food was always, you know, people say it wasn't, but it was. I remember Pound, but I was two and six when I was a kid, and my mother used to moan and say, Why does it [01:00:30] cost so much? Why is the meat so expensive when we produce it all? You know? So, um yeah. So that's why I went to Aussie because, you know, and and that's when I became a proper prostitute. Really? I thought it became my career because I knew that's what I needed to do. Well, I actually got a straight job working in a in a nursing home and I had two jobs. I got two jobs within and and then and a job in the parlour. And I realised that I was making more [01:01:00] in four or five hours in the parlour than I was making in either job. Gave up one job and stayed in the one because that was so well, I couldn't believe how well paid I was in the in working in the nursing home to what I was compared to here. So I gave up the other job, and then and then I gave up that job because I didn't like the conditions. Actually, a Greek lady and I reported him because he just treated the people, like, just shocking half starved them and everything. And I I realised that [01:01:30] working in the parlour was making me more money, you know? And so within a couple of months, I was I had my own little flat, which was a parlour, and made it was running it for myself. First of all, my girlfriend and I started there. She moved on to another one, and I stayed in that one, Um, and for Yarra. Um and I gave that up in 1986. And then, uh, in 87 I became [01:02:00] a, uh receptionist. But, um you know, um, that's about where you because there was there was brothels in those days, but they were very hush hush. I mean, I in Wellington I. I really didn't. Apparently there was one. But it wasn't till I was leaving that they were starting massage parlours were just starting. I used to, um there used to be a place in Herbert Street. It used to be called the TA to Tate. [01:02:30] Then it became the and I had. I was running that for a little while, and, um, and then, um through circumstances, it folded, and they turned it into Wellington's first massage parlour. And it was straight massage, and you had to have they had swing doors, you know, like a bar doors the bar, see the top and at the bottom, you know, um, like like, um, let you know, like a shutter, [01:03:00] half a door. And you had to be able to see the girl's head and the girl's feet. And the police used to walk through. And if they couldn't see your feet in your head, well, then they pushed the doors open. So what used to happen? Apparently, And it was called, Um Oh, what did they call It was the first one. And a friend of mine was the The, um, manager is, you know, the receptionist and [01:03:30] the girls would if the guy wanted them, then you'd probably have to wait until after they finish their shift because, um, Mark and casa around them and they would have a house somewhere where the girls would work from and, like, someone ring up and say, Oh, so and so is coming up, you know, to me, you know, from or we're sending a guy, there's a guy on his way up. His name is so and so, [01:04:00] um, I've just massaged him, or, um or or they might meet them after their shift, you know? And and I just don't I can't remember because, as I said, it was just starting before I left. I remember going and having a look at it, and, um, I'm trying to think of the name of it. Can't think of the name at the moment. It'll come to me when I go home, I suppose. But, um, they they were just starting in 1976. That was the first one in street. I [01:04:30] I'm just very aware of the time. And, um, just lastly, I'm just wondering, what is your overriding memory of Carmen? Um, an exotic beauty with a heart as big as a a lake. Uh, I i to me, Um and she was very beautiful in her day. Really beautiful. Right up until she died. I mean, I've got a photo on the wall of her of her 75th [01:05:00] birthday, where she is, like, 45 kg or 49 kg, skinny as anything. But they she had someone do their makeup for her and her face, and she and apparently she was dead on her feet. But as soon as she saw a man or the camera, the lips beautiful. Big smile came. And I've got a photo of their hands up like that, smiling and she looks absolutely beautiful. And if you didn't know better, you'd think, Well, how gorgeous and glamorous she was. And to think that she was dead and two months later or something, [01:05:30] you know, um, my overall thing, I would say about Carmen. Out of all the people like us that I've met, I would say she was the most genuine. I mean, there's plenty that are. But I'm saying that she was a really caring, genuine, big [01:06:00] hearted person. And I mean, that goes without saying. I mean, all the people I said ripped her off for her life. And she there was no revenge. There was no hate for them. There was never any. I never heard Carmen run people down. Never her biggest. If she was angry with somebody, or somebody annoyed her like Phyllis, she'd go. They're beautiful for Phyllis. Well, of course, Phyllis wasn't beautiful. So you knew she was being a gig. But that's about [01:06:30] as bad as Carmen ever got. Carmen was never vicious about people. She never said nasty things about people. She accepted everybody, and she was loved by everybody. She'd be cracking it on William Street in Sydney with a dress up over her backs and leaning on her umbrella. Someone rooting her from behind, talking to somebody. And they didn't even know they were there. Straight. People coming. Hello? Come in. I mean, I used to go and see her on William Street sometimes. And she was she [01:07:00] was a an attract. She was known by everybody and loved by everybody because she was a nice, genuine person. You know, if you needed to bob for a for a coffee, she'd give it to you. You know, she was a really lovely person. And that's all I can really ever say that she was very glamorous. Um, very beautiful, Um, very, very giving. And she gave us all of us girls go and a chance, and she [01:07:30] could have got rid of us, you know? I mean, I. I know that she knew we were a bit of a draw card as well, But, I mean, she still could have run her business and had a fabulous business without any of us she could have. And that nobody in this world can tell me any different. Because Carmen only needed Carmen. Carmen was the front, even though Carmen would come by and say the same thing half an hour later. And how are you, dear? And what you been up to? It was just her. Her genuine way [01:08:00] of being a hostess and making you feel welcome. Everybody got spoken to in the coffee lounge. Carmen, go to every table and say hello, dear. And how are you tonight? and thank you. And so Carmen really didn't have to have anyone else, you know? Of course, the queens were a draw card and because they were glamorous and beautifully groomed and all the rest of it, But she could have had just as beautifully groomed girls and other people there, and she still would have done well and probably a lot better than [01:08:30] she ended up with. Just quietly, to be honest, because when you've a lot of girls, you got to remember in those days it was so hard to get a job. So you lived on your wits. And sometimes those those things that you do to survive become a bit of a habit. And before you know it, I wasn't like that. When I got a job, I was lucky. And I'm not making myself any better, But But I always had morals. And I always knew that when I did something wrong, if I got caught, you play with [01:09:00] fire, you get burned. I never cried foul unless they arrested me for something I never did. Then I'd cry foul if I'd done it. I was quite willing to if I stole food and I got caught. I'm willing to take the consequence. I stole clothes. I was expected to take the consequences if I got caught. You play with fire, you get burned. I was taught that and I had morals. As soon as I had a job, all those sort of things went out the window. You know, I didn't need to do that anymore. But a lot of people, it becomes habit so they can't [01:09:30] help themselves. They got they got to take a little bit for them each time, a little bit. And that's where where Carmen was let down people. Too many people took so thousands fucking thousands of it. Thousands, hundreds of dollars a night would go out in their burel, and it's sad. And you, you know, some of them were their friends until the day they died, you know, and it's not being awful. I'm not trying to be nasty about somebody or anything. It's just [01:10:00] that sometimes those habits, it's like alcoholism. The the habit that you've got into to survive has become, or the the thing that you've done to survive has become a habit, and you can't help yourself and especially if they had a couple of drinks. You know, that makes it even, just, you know, because you always had drinks. You know, there was always drink going around, even though it wasn't licenced. There was always drink. So, you know, and and that's the only thing I can say is that if Carmen had probably had [01:10:30] had done it different, but she didn't have any regrets, she had no regrets. So there's no good saying if, but what I mean is, I think that she would have been a rich woman if it had been done differently. She always gave our people the family a chance, as I call it family, whether if you're gay or lesbian or whatever, you're family. We're all family and and we all have to stick together sort of thing. But sometimes your family rips you off, and it's a bit sad. And sometimes it's jealousy as well. [01:11:00] You know, um, but overall, a beautiful person and and sadly missed And, um, someone that I always looked up to. I mean, sometimes I didn't like her her, um, ways of dealing with things like I left Carmen's because she she tried to. I didn't go to work one night I I suffered with irritable bowel syndrome. Very bad. And a lot of the girls that get pissed and didn't go to work. Well, I learned my lesson, but I had irritable [01:11:30] bowel syndrome, and that's the only thing that ever kept me away from work. If my boyfriend gave me a black eye, I knew how to colour it and everything to make it so you couldn't see it. You know, III I never stay away from work. But I couldn't go because I had, You know, um, the these terrible, agonising pains, like someone ripping your guts out from irritable bowel syndrome, which I had for years and years and years and years being who I am, You see, stress, that's what causes it. And I didn't go to work [01:12:00] and, um and she tried to and she got she got my girlfriend that live with me to to try and, you know, say something to me about not being there. La la la And then the next thing my girlfriend didn't go to work, and she tried to get me to go and tell her something, and I said, No, I'm not the boss. If you wanna say something, you go say it and she sort of said, Oh, something, something I said, Oh, well, I'll give you two weeks notice And she was flabbergasted, absolutely flabbergasted that [01:12:30] I would do that, but I just didn't that that's just me. I'm a bit like that. If it's something I don't like, and and and it's and it's against, what my morals, you know, I. I think the boss should come out and say what they want to say to you, not send your best friend to to say it. And if that's the only fault she has, well, then it's nothing. But for me, that was something I didn't agree with, and I and I gave her two weeks notice. She nearly fainted. When I told her, she said. Really, I said, Yes, you've got two weeks notice. I work the two weeks out or [01:13:00] I'll leave now it's up to you, but I work two weeks until you find someone to take my place. She was very upset because I was a very good waitress. Sometimes the others didn't turn up and I'd waitress the whole club. It didn't bother me, but I just was upset because she thought I'd gone on a ship and I hadn't at all. I had not gone on a ship. You know, this is years I'd learned that many years before not to. If you don't go to work, you don't have a job. There's plenty of time to do something, you know? And And I needed [01:13:30] the money, you know? So, yeah. So, II I and I was upset because, um, she didn't have the decency to come and speak to me about it. And she got Paula, too, and then then tried to get me to do, to do something against Paula, and I just No, that was it for me. And then I went back and worked for Chrissy at sunset, but, um, but I didn't hold it against her or anything. You know, that was just me just the way I am, you know? And she never held it against me, you know? And we became [01:14:00] really closer and closer as the years went by, You know, um, but yeah, a lovely person and very sadly missed. I miss her very dearly. I used to ring her at least once a month on a Sunday. You know, after church, I'd ring her in the evening and she'd been at church or something, you know? And Yeah, I miss I miss her very much. I miss I miss her little calls when she'd ring me. Hi, Dad. You know, [01:14:30] and her and her and her cards with their big writing. And, you know, we never missed each other's birthdays or Christmas, and she'd often just send a card out of the blue. I've got heaps of them at home that I've kept that she sent me, you know, but always self promoting with cards and them with their picture and all sort of things, but yeah, I I miss her very much.

IRN: 699
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_nate_b.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004091
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089385
TITLE: Nate (b) - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Nate
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Nate; Q12 (series); School's Out (Wellington); Wellington; arts; bisexual; closeted; coming out; community; family; friends; gender identity; hormone blockers; hormone replacement therapy (HRT); music; parents; queer straight alliance (QSA); relationships; sport; support; top surgery; transgender; transition; transphobia; youth
DATE: 14 December 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Nate talks about being young and transgender in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm pretty good. Yeah, that's good. Who are you? I'm Nate. Hello, Nate. Uh, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Um, like what? Anything personality wise. I'm nice. I'm a pretty laughable guy. That's about it. So he likes hobbies. Music, um, hobbies and interests. Like I like music a lot. I play guitar. Um [00:00:30] Ah. I really like art and things like that. And I play a lot of sports and stuff like that. So So where are you from? I'm originally from Auckland, but I moved to Wellington about 10 years ago. Yeah. Whereabouts in Wellington. Um, up. So what is your sex? The sex that you were born with? I'm female. What is your gender [00:01:00] identity? Male. Uh, what is your sexuality? Uh, by And how do you express yourself in a masculine and feminine way? Both. It's kind of both. Really? It's kind of both. You have your moments where you just walk down the street kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, something like that. You know, the random moments, the random moments. I mean, I do wear a pink shirt, so I think it's all about the pink shirts, you know, pink shirt day or in [00:01:30] drunk case? Red Shirt day. Yeah. When did you first realise you were bisexual? Um, quite later on, actually. Quite. Later on what happened first, Um well, I knew that I like girls a lot, but I didn't really know anything about guys at all. Um, uh, then I kind of met someone on the way and Yeah, I guess that happens. So I mean, I knew that [00:02:00] I liked guys. Like what? I kind of did. I mean, I from like, Oh, let's see. 12, 12, 12 ish, maybe 14 ish. Um, I would like, watch things and things like that, but then I wouldn't really think anything of it, but, um, then I kind of thought something of it when I met this person. So yeah, and things went on from there. Yeah. OK, how about when you first realised that you [00:02:30] were Trans? Um, it took a really long time because, um, I think first I had to go through, um, my sexual identity first, because that was quite weird. And, um because originally I wasn't I didn't come out as Trans. I came out as gay in my sex. And then, um, that lasted for about two months [00:03:00] before I realised that that's not who I was. And, um and then I partly came out as Trans, and, um, it wasn't really a good time. Um, because so far in the trans community, it's not as accepting as the gay community right now because the gay community is way further down the track than the trans community right now. Did you ever went [00:03:30] through a stage of denying your sexuality or gender identity? Um, yes. A lot of the time. Sometimes. Sometimes it happens a lot, actually, even though I am out, um, and I tend to deny it a lot, but, um, yeah, I think it happens with a lot of people as well, though. Do you have go through stages where at the moment where you deny it at the and then [00:04:00] you say that you are like, you're just jumping in and out of the closest? In a way? I guess so. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And denying it to yourself in a way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, That's it. Yeah. Things happen like that. Yeah. Have you ever felt like you had to keep it a secret from other people. Yes, both sexuality. And but mostly it was because of my own safety. Sometimes it was uncomfortable for me. But in order to keep myself safe, I had to [00:04:30] keep that on the down. Look, why is that? Because again, it's not the also. The place that I live in is not really that accepting of people of that identity or whatever so. But, you know, if you go further into Wellington, the more accepting it gets. But then again, it's just, you know, the people that you're around. So what? So have you heard of anything that's happened bad in the trans community in the [00:05:00] upper hut? Specifically, Um, there is no trans community in Upper Hut. Um, so you are the community? Yeah, I guess I am the community, Um, but it's more of a gay community in upper heart, and it's quite large. I underground we call it because everyone seems to know them because it's it's quite a small town, but it's like an underground gay community. It's quite funny. So when you first came to realise about your sexuality and your gender identity, [00:05:30] how did you feel? Um, sad. I kind of that, you know, thinking that, um because from here on out that it'd be quite hard depending on if people know or not. But, um, being me, it's quite actually easy. Easy to pass through the day because I I really look like my identity. And, you know, I quite get through the day quite well. Except I look quite young. Which [00:06:00] goes along with it, though, but it's fine. Um, yeah. There's a lot more people as well. Yeah, Yeah, I do. Does that annoy you a bitch or, um, I don't think it annoys me III. I find it quite flattering sometimes. I think so, Um, I think everyone should this randomly hit on you. Oh, yeah. Anyway, um, so you're out, Obviously. Um, partly, I guess. [00:06:30] Yeah. Um, my, um my parents tend to deny it, so, um, it's like it's, like, really basically coming out every day. So but, um, I'm out to my friends and and stuff like that, and, frankly, they they they are the most open minded people that you would ever meet. And, um, half of them are basically straight, and they completely and utterly love me. So it's amazing. Yeah, out with your sexuality as well. Um, halfway as well. Yeah. Some of my friends [00:07:00] say that they don't care either. Some of them couldn't really grasp it. Some people can't grasp it either. They'll they'll ask questions. And, um, you know, asking questions is good, because then they understand, apart from the occasional question where you just go. What? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, um, when did you Oh, two part two part question. When did you come out as, um, for gender identity? Um, [00:07:30] after I two months after I had come out as gay. How old were you? 6. 16. So who did you come out to first? My friends and they had positive reactions. Yeah. What about your parents? No, no, no. Um, of course. I think that you know, parents, they have this. They have this picture of you and they're never going to, you know, um, they're never gonna It's never gonna [00:08:00] change. They, um they kind of just want you to be the person. They kind of want you basically to be like them in a way. And my parents are very old fashioned, you see, and, um, they're quite old. They're, um middle age. Um, and they grew up. Quite. Uh um, how do you say, um, reserves. So because my mother was she was, um, she was [00:08:30] orphaned. And my father, he, um he grew up just very reserved as well. So they weren't really open to this kind of stuff. They didn't think that they'd have to deal with it. It was a new territory for them. Oh, completely. Yeah. It's a bit of a shock for them. Yeah, completely and utterly. So, um, what were the general reaction from people that that you came out to? It really depends on who you're talking about. Because it [00:09:00] my parents the general reaction was Well, we swear. Yeah. Yeah, I swear. Um fuck no. Um, and my friends, basically, they were more open minded because this is basically 2012 and you in, um, in the environment that we grew up in, it's more like OK, well, can I ask you some questions about it? You let me understand, and then, you know, I'll think about [00:09:30] it. And basically, that's how my friends reacted to it. When if you look at my parents' reaction, it was more like I'm not going to listen to you. You're a child. You don't understand anything. You don't know what you're talking about and things like that, because back then it was more it, um it was classed as, um, you know, there's seriously something wrong with you. Yeah. How did you feel about your friend's reaction? I thought it was lovely. [00:10:00] How about your parents? I thought it was shit. Obviously. Can you expand on that? Um, I just didn't like it because it's still going on. Frankly, um, so it's just gonna take them a damn long time. Frankly, they don't think that they're ever going to get used to it, so Yeah. So, um, do you have any support [00:10:30] or ever had support? Yes. Yeah, I do. A lot of your friends. Yes. And yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, do you have you joined, or are you part of a QS A or LGBTI Q group? I am indeed. Um I am part of three, actually. I'm part of the, uh, the Huq S A. Um oh, it's it's in. It's in with schools out which, [00:11:00] um is all through, like New Zealand and things like that, and mostly in Wellington. So and then the Wellington, um, schools out as well, and they're great. And then we're also setting up a QS a at my, um my, uh my high school. Hopefully next. Uh, yeah, my other one. Yeah, I'm helping those kids with it. So, um, do you know the process that you need to go through for being a trans person? Yes. Yes, it's quite hard. [00:11:30] Would you like to explain? Um, it really depends on what you want to know. How about for yourself? For myself. Um, so really, it starts off with hormones and things like that, but it takes a long process to get those hormones and, um, things like that. Um, I have been on blockers lately. Um, So what does that mean? The blockers, um, they basically block, um, hormones in [00:12:00] your body that you don't want. So, um, for me, I actually can't remember what the hormone is right now, but, um, it's not testosterone. It's the, um it's the other one. Yeah, for, um, a female. So that's how you it basically blocks that. So things like that. Yeah. So what else is there? Um, and then, uh, there's also top surgery, which I plan on getting, which costs a shit load. Um, yeah, it depends where you go. And, [00:12:30] um, you can my friend, he got it. He just got his and he got his in Auckland. So, um, hopefully if I ever have the money in the next what, five years, then that will happen. And, um, basically, when they do that as well, they, um or they also take out parts in your body which you don't need anymore. So because it's, um so basically the female organs and things like that, because, uh, you can seriously hurt yourself after being [00:13:00] on testosterone for an amount of time. Um, because the rest of your body is like, What the fuck? I don't need this anymore. So they just get rid of them. Yeah. Yeah. So do you have a support person that's gonna be helping you through that? Um, yeah. Um, so far, um, I have my boyfriend. Yeah. OK, so well, that answers the next question. Do you have a boyfriend or girlfriend? Um, so [00:13:30] how many relationships have you been in? Um, a lot. Um Well, I wouldn't really call them relationships, because, um do we have to say that? Um, that's to say a lot. I didn't really constituting that. Relationships last longer than a month and there's fling that [00:14:00] last. OK, so I've had, like, one relationship, then, um, your current or Oh, no, No. Ok, well, then two, then Or like, 0333 relationships that last more than a month ish. And the rest were just flings. And there's many of those. So as you do, Yeah. So, um yeah. So you've had a lot of links? Yes. Would you like to tell us some of your experiences [00:14:30] that you've had with one of your relationships? Um Well, how so, Uh, in any What's your relationship, like with any of them or anything? Ok, well, um, I can talk about two, I guess. I mean, um, see, I had, um I had a relationship when I had just come out of being Trans, and, um, they took to it quite. [00:15:00] I don't know if you would say like, well, but, um well, well, OK, yeah, they took to it quite quite well, which is quite nice. And I just like seeing people's reactions because I pass quite well. Um, and it's very hard for people to tell that I'm Trans. Um, so because of my face? Yeah. Um, [00:15:30] so, Yeah, it was quite well. And then my boyfriend right now he, um he took to her quite well as well he took to her. Really? Well, do you ever go through days where you don't pass? Very well. Yes. Actually, I had this one day that really pissed me off, and I didn't understand why I wasn't passing. And I thought it was quite funny. I had my friend with me and I had this hat, which was quite really, really weird. And whenever I put it on, [00:16:00] someone would think that I was a chick and it was really pissing off. And every time I take it off, they wouldn't think I was chick. So it was It was really weird. So it's a disgraceful hat. You know, I never use that hat, but I these days I actually pass quite quite really well, so that's good. Um, how do you meet other people in the LGBTI Q community? Just walk through the streets? Um, no. Just randomly start touching on you. Um um [00:16:30] Well, there's the obvious one, which is the Q SAS basically. But then you can't say that because we also have straight people coming in as well. Um, that could be part of the community, of course. Yeah, of course. Um and, um, just basic, you know, things that happen. So, you know, if you want to meet someone of that, you know, thing, then you know you go to the big gay out or, you [00:17:00] know, you can just go anywhere that has the name gay in it, you know, just find it. You can find them everywhere. So, um, what is your personal opinion of the definition of virgin? I have no idea. No idea. Do you have an opinion on it at all? Virginity? Yeah, I think it's a bunch of crap. Frankly, why is that? Because, um I think that, you know, I have a couple of feminist friends, [00:17:30] I guess. And, you know, it's just I just see the label or the word or whatever is just completely ut of crap. Because if you put it on guys as well, then you know it. It doesn't really make any sense. And I just think that it was just put on a bunch of girls to show that, you know. Oh, what's my point that I'm making, um, as a feminist? I guessing? Um, yeah, well, basically, that you know, that the guy or whoever [00:18:00] takes over journey away from them is just, you know, it's something that's theirs. And yeah, it's I just I just think it sucks, Really? Right. So, um, have you received or experienced any abuse or abusive behaviour because of your sexuality or gender identity? Yes, Um, mostly just walking down the road. I mean, um, I've heard of other trans people. Um, where it's really were, mostly [00:18:30] for the people who can't pass very well, which is really sad sometimes. And if they use the toilets, then you know, then they can get a quite a lot of abuse in there as well. Um, but other than that, I've only had, um, verbal abuse, and, uh, that's that's around about it, you know? OK, well, thank you for the interview. All right. So good.

IRN: 701
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/dana_de_milo.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004090
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089384
TITLE: Dana de Milo
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Dana de Milo
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; Anwar Sadat; Aotearoa New Zealand; April Ashley; Auckland; Australia; Belinda Lee Borlase; Bistro bar; Butch Queen; Ca d'Oro (Auckland); Cairo; Carmen Rupe; Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Chrissy Witoko; Christine Jorgensen; Club Exotic; Club Exotique; Dana de Milo; Drag Queen; Egypt; El Matador; Emmanuel Papadopoulos snr; Gamel Beheri; Jaidyn Leskie; John Money; Justice Denied; Karitane; Kasr El Aini Hospital; Melbourne; Mount Crawford Prison; Māori; Queensland; Rainton Hastie; Robert Muldoon; Robin Bowles; Royal Melbourne Hospital; Royal Oak Hotel; Surgery of Dr Thomas Ongley; Sydney; The Balcony / Le Balcon; The Purple Onion; Thomas Ongley; Welby Ings; Wellington; World War 1; abuse; back slang; bullying; clothing; digger (dungeon); discrimination; domestic violence; drag; education; employment; exotic dancer; family; friends; fruit; gender identity; growing up; harassment; health; health system; homophobia; hormone replacement therapy (HRT); identity; law; nightclub; parents; performance; police; politics; poofter; poverty; prison; racism; runaway; school; sex work; ship mole; ships; shirt lifter; sissy; striptease; suicide; surgery; transgender; transition; transphobia; trick; venues; violence
DATE: 4 December 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Dana talks about her early life. Dana also did another interview about working with Carmen. Dana passed away on 12 February 2018.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Donna de Milo. I was born on the 29th of the 8th, 1946 in Auckland, New Zealand. Um, baby, um, I ran away from home when I was 13, which was 1960. It was Queen's birthday weekend. Funny that And TV had just started black and white television and I ran away from home to be me. Um, yeah. And, [00:00:30] um, I actually met Carmen not long after I was at a place called the Kado Coffee Lounge, which used to be in, um I think it's AC, a custom street or key street. But the one that was at the bottom of Queen Street, the first one isn't that terrible? I can't remember. I haven't lived in Auckland for over 50 something years. Um, I think it's street and the Great Northern Hotel was on the corner on the left as [00:01:00] you were coming down Queen Street right on the corner. And underneath that, on in the key street was a coffee lounge called the and opposite. There was a street which is no longer called little Queen Street. And I happened to be in the because a friend of mine worked behind the bar. And then came this beautiful woman in a Sam with long dark hair. And she was very slim and very gorgeous and very un I didn't have a clue, [00:01:30] except there was something about her that drew me towards her. And I was up by the counter and there was nothing I. I can't say what it was, but I just knew. And when she left, I said to my friend, I said, Oh, do you think that might have been a man? And she said, What makes you say that? I said, I don't know. But anyway, I followed her down to Little Queen Street and she was working in a a nightclub for Ray and has as a as a dancer, stripper, exotic dancer. And I used to stand out there. [00:02:00] I used to go there every night because I was so interested and stand outside this club because I didn't have the money to get in and watch and hope that every time someone went in or out and opened the door, I'd get to catch a glimpse of this. This person, as I later found out, was Carmen. I didn't know who she was at first, and then I found out that she had told the guy on the door to let me in because one night he said, You can come in and sit at the back, come and see it And I said, Who's Carmen? And he And he pointed her out to me. And then I realised who she was, [00:02:30] and she had told him to let me in that it was, you know, yeah, because and, um and then I never saw her again. Not long after that, um, I started, um, going on the ships and things and staying away from or getting away from Auckland because it was very, very The police were very heavy in Auckland at the time. They used to get the dogs on to us and everything and follow it. You know, you couldn't go on the street. Um, and they would arrest you and put you in the lock up, you know? And they couldn't lock you. They couldn't [00:03:00] charge you with anything because there was no law against dressing in the opposite sex as clothes. So I found out listening to them at the key. The key, uh, police station, which is no longer there. I don't think right opposite the wharf. They used to take me there all the time. New kid on the block And, um, I heard them saying, because it was it was one of those old fashioned police stations. They had bars, you were in behind floor to ceiling bars, and I was leaning up against the even. I'm deaf and the good listening. [00:03:30] And he was saying one person was saying to the other, There's nothing we can do because there's no law against dressing in the opposite sex as clothes, unless to cause a Felonious act. Example. Blackened face, et cetera. In other words, you use you were using drag as a, um to cause a Felonious act. Of course you were if you were cracking it, I suppose. But they didn't know that, Um, so they had to let me go all the time. But when they let me go, you see, I had to walk from the city [00:04:00] through three or four different suburbs to get to get where I was living and each suburb the policeman would ring the next policeman so they could have a little joke on their way you know, um, Donna, can I just take you back a wee bit? Because I'm really interested in the 19 sixties to expand a wee bit on what it was actually like as a as a as a as a young person. You said that you you kind of ran away from him at the age of 13. What? What happened and and why did I run away? I run away [00:04:30] because I didn't think my mother would accept me because, um, I used to get a hiding all the time for dressing up. Not not from my grandmother, Not from my aunties or anything. Only my mother. And it wasn't until many years later that when we got back together after I was 21 Because I've been told by my doctor that up to 21 you're under the the those days you were under your parents, guardianship Didn't matter if you had a house, a business or a car. If your parents didn't like the way you lived, you could be put into a loony bin. And and he [00:05:00] told me that. So I knew. That's why I was very wary because I didn't think my mother would accept me because she always gave me a hiding for it. But later she said she knew and was waiting for it to happen. But I said, Why didn't you say? And then she said, And she said, And I said, Why did you give me hidings? And she said, Well, no mother and the penny dropped and I forgave her immediately. No, Mother likes to see their child pointed at bashed and picked on and harassed. And I thought, Mm, you're right. I understand. Now [00:05:30] I do understand. I didn't then, um so that's the reason I ran away. And also Auckland was very difficult In those days. You couldn't wear women's clothes on the street. You could wear full makeup and hair and everything, but you couldn't wear women's clothes. And if you wore a bra or anything, you're supposed to wear a singlet underneath it. In those days. That's the early sixties. We're talking 1960 through to and then see Carmen actually changed the law in Auckland because she got picked on the cops picked [00:06:00] on her going home in a car with this guy and um tried to have her up, and she took it to court, and they took it to court with the guy and proved that he was just taking her home from work, which I don't think he really was. I think she was cracking up with him. But anyway, he was willing to stand up and say he was driving her home from work and she won the case saying that there was no law against her being like she was. So it changed it a lot in Auckland. That was about 1965 or something like that. [00:06:30] I think when I was well and truly living here in Wellington, then I came to Wellington to live permanently in 63. When? When did you start dressing 60 in 1960. So, at the age of 13, when I ran away, I tried it for, um I thought because, you know, people used to say it was because, um, which is it? See, it was John Money's idea. Nurture, not nature. So of course, any parent thought it was their fault. If they looked into anything and they found anything about it, it was all written by Doctor [00:07:00] John Money, who was a New Zealander who went to the, um, my doctor wanted my mother to see me. The the, um it's a It's a it's a it's a hospital and university in America Hopkins University Hopkins Hospital. Um, anyway, um, so if any parents looked up anything about being trans well, it wasn't even called transgender. In those days, you we were drag queens and Butch, Butch Queens. [00:07:30] It didn't matter if that queen gotten dragged on the weekend or not. They were still called Butch Queen because they worked as boys during the day we were drag queens because we lived as queen as women. And if you read anything about it, you would come against John money and his was nurtured and his was nurture, not nature. He didn't believe he believed you could bring a child, bring a child up to be a girl or to be a boy. And so I suppose this is what people thought and people used to say, Oh, it's because your father and my father had only been dead 18 months or something, [00:08:00] you know? I mean, Dad was sick all through my life, but I still had my father's influence, you know, And he knew he knew said to my mother, Well, stop making him do the housework. You're only making it worse. You know, Mum used to say he's got to stand on his own 2 ft when he leaves home. Or or if anything happens to me and and And I mean, they knew, Dad. But I knew from this high that my father was going to die. And, um, because he had Hodgkins lymphatic Hodgkin's disease. But it wasn't known as that. It was just in the very beginning, they thought it was TV. And then they found out it was [00:08:30] Hodgkins. Anyway, so anything my mother would have read, which I know she would have tried to would have been about John Hopkins. So she thought it was It was nurture, not nature. So, um, she used to give me hidings all the time. You see, if she caught me dressed up and and my mother could give her a good bloody hiding, let me tell you, I'm deaf in one ear because of it. Um but it was the only thing I thought of him for that I kept going back to do that. She couldn't stop me. How did you dress up. What [00:09:00] were you dressing in? Uh, her clothes, Um, and my grandmother's clothes. I used to come home from school every day. My grandmother, my father's mother, stayed with us for quite a while, and he used to tell her these lies and say, I did a play at school and I was the girl in it. And what have you and she And she was an old Victorian. So we used to sit all the chairs out in the lounge, and she'd sit in the middle, and we'd put toys on the bloody seat to pretend there was an audience and she'd end up nodding off, and I would around the house and carry on. And at the end, I'd make a big noise and she go, Oh, beautiful. Did she clap, clap? [00:09:30] And that was it. You know, um, and I can remember once. See, my mother had a car. So you never think because you're young? I was about 9. 10. You never think of your mother, um, car breaking down. And mum had gone after the dressmakers, and I'm dressed up in her clothes. Um, I've got on these seam stockings and toe peep shoes. and this gown this this full fled skirt and a sequin top. And I mean, this is broad daylight. I mean, please, broad [00:10:00] daylight, a fur on and a sein top and a bras with lemons in them. Um, and my mother had one of them. They just come out was in the fifties. So what could have been even a bit late? It could have been 58. Dad could have been passed, and it was a hat wig. They were these fun wigs, hat, wigs. And Mum had done it like a wig. Done it like a hairstyle, but stuck it on this doll in her in her room. And I had stuck this on and I had a fascinator on top of it. And I'm standing and I've been smoking since I was about six [00:10:30] or seven because they said it stunted your growth. Yeah, right. You know, I was 5 ft two in the premise. I was very tall. Anyway, I'm standing at the and we only had one. The garage and a and a uh um, a driveway. And it was next door. I had didn't have a garage, a driveway. They used the same driveway. Anyway, this taxi pulls up in the drive. I'm standing at the gate puffing a cigarette on, all dressed up like that, and this taxi stops And I think, Oh, it's the boys next door. [00:11:00] Suck on a cigarette, love blow out smoke. And all of a sudden I saw this white hair and my mother was platinum blonde natural Come out from from beside this taxi And I thought to my mother I swallowed the cigarette and I thought, What am I going to do, run around the back and rip it all off? Or shall I just walk up the street and pretend I was selling something? Well, of course, you know how could you be selling something dressed like that in broad daylight and started to wander up the street and next thing by the air and ripped inside? You're the hiding, but yeah, that's that's [00:11:30] That's why I ran away because I didn't think she'd accept me. And she said she would have, but too late. You know, I'd run away by then. Where did you run away to? I ran away to some friends place. Uh, I actually had a very good boss. My boss. Um, I was an apprentice French polisher because my mother made me. I left school at 12 at 12. 5. Got special permission to leave school and go into a trade. I hated school. [00:12:00] Locos picked on at school all my life. My mother didn't know that, though. Mum didn't. I never told my mother because, you see, kids want to make their parents proud and, you know, especially if if teachers are abetting these kids, you know, they're helping them. Um, they were just as bad as the kids. They would egg them on, you know, make the bullets and they'd fire them. So you knew. I knew in my heart that it wasn't something my parents would be proud of, so I wasn't gonna tell them. So I never told my mother ever until, [00:12:30] you know, after I was 21 and when she came and got me here in Wellington, we went home for a holiday. I told her everything, and she said, Why didn't you tell me? I said, because it would have just made it worse. I said, remember, you used to make me dance with those Indian girls. I wanted to dance with them and look at their jewellery and the and the things between their eyes at school. But I didn't do it be be willingly because the kids would say I was garlic stink the next day and all that sort of That's the way kids were. And Mum would make me go and dance with these Indian girls, you see, so they wouldn't be on their [00:13:00] own. And, um, next day, as sure as eggs I'd get picked on. And I said to You don't realise That's why I used to say no all the time to you, and you'd say, Go and dance with the You know, nobody wants to dance with her. You go and dance with her and I didn't want to and I'd say, No, no, And she'd say, If you know and I'll give you a hiding And I'd say, But you don't understand. But I, I wouldn't tell her that I'd get picked on the next day. You see, so and and of course you got. Even nowadays, I think that people still think they're alone. And in those days you even felt more alone. You know, I [00:13:30] had heard of, um Christine Jorgenson and I had thought that I was 10 or 12 when I read about her. But I was, um it was 1952 So I I would have been, um I was born in 46 so I would have been six years old. When I read about her, my mother asked me to set the fire, and I was crushing up the paper into balls and it came across this on the front page. Um [00:14:00] um, what is it? G? I change swaps, sex or changes sex or something, and had a photo of her with her hat on the side as a G I and a photo of her as a woman. And I remember ripping it out, putting it in my pocket and every night, reading it under the blankets with a torch and thinking, Oh, well, I'm not the only person. And then the year I left home was the year. April Ashley had her change. 1960. Um, so, yeah, so I didn't know until [00:14:30] 2002 that I was actually only six years old. I thought I read about it when I was dead so that I knew at six years old that I was like that I knew before that. Anyway, I always knew. Can you describe for me what kind of child you were? Well, I'd say now, precocious. I mean, I wouldn't have said it once, because I I was an only child because my mother couldn't have any more Children. I was one of 13 pregnancies that survived My mother. Um, I was Yeah, [00:15:00] I was a 13. My mother kept losing her babies. They didn't know. And even when she died, she didn't know. I found out through someone that I knew that was a theatre sister and everything that, um every time my mother got pregnant, she got diabetic, you see? And, um, she became and that's why I believe it's about, um if the mother is stressed out having a baby, it affects the brain. Um, you know, the body is formed and everything, but the brain isn't completely formed. And when a woman is very stressed, she flushes estrogens, [00:15:30] and they say that it's such and such a semester. But I mean, my mother's mother was dying and she died on the first of August. I was born on the 29th, and my father was in the hospital and they didn't know what was wrong with her. So I mean, that's a lot of stress. And my mother's mother wouldn't let anyone else but her feed her. And my mother was toxic. Um, it's blown up like a balloon. And, um, she had to go from hospital to hospital, you know? So that's stress. And I can imagine that's I. [00:16:00] I actually believe that, you know, because, um uh, you know, I I wasn't brought up, like when they say nurture, it's that it's not true. It's nature. I was always like it. I mean, at three years old, my grandfather knew, he said to my grandmother, I was different, you know, um, because he gave me a toy and it was a beautiful, bright red car made out of steel with black, black, lovely, shiny black wheels and the skies all cast iron, [00:16:30] you know, after the war and it had, um, I was three. So it was about 1949 and just before after he died, before he died, I mean, and it had a little man inside it and he had a helmet on. They were all painted different colours, and I remember picking it up, thinking how pretty it was and picking it up and chucking it because it was cold and hard and it wasn't what it looked like and going. And my grandmother saying to my grandmother, He's different. I told you he's different [00:17:00] and Nana wasn't taking any notice and he got a bit louder And of course, I thought he was upset with me. So I started crying and he was going Wish Ben wish. He said He's different. I told you he's different, but he didn't care. But he knew there was something different about me, you know, and, um and I I and I don't remember ever not being the way I am. I mean, I used to go and swap all my toys for broken dolls, and Mum came and look on the box and say, How come you've got all these dolls? Go back [00:17:30] and get your toys back? So I go and get my toys back and say, the girl, I'll just I'll come back later and I'll I'll swap them again. And I used to keep swapping them all these broken dolls for toys. But um, I would say that I was very precocious. I mean, I could I could read, write and read poetry and everything Before I went to school. I spoke Maori before I went to school. Um, so I was rather a precocious child. I would say, um, the lady next door thought I was a little girl for years. [00:18:00] Didn't, um I actually asked my mother many years later. What? Where was Carol? You know, where's Carol? And it was me, Darryl, You know. So, um, I I was clever. I was a very intelligent child until I went to school. And when I hit the standards, that was the end of me. Um, because I got picked on by the kids in the standards they used to call me, uh, pickled onions 5 ft two just to escape from New York Zoo. Because I was the tallest kid in the school. [00:18:30] Always from the very beginning. They thought I had Kleins Felder because I was so tall. I ended up growing so quick that the ligaments in my legs were so stretched there was no fluid in them. So I had to have plaster cast on my leg because I couldn't put my heels to the ground. I just like a weed. I shot up, you know, And, um was when I went into this from to the standards, Um, that, Yeah, everything just started going downhill from then on because the kids would pick on me all the [00:19:00] time, you see, and teachers were no better. Was it quite usual or unusual to leave school at the age of 12? I mean, was it was it kind of 12. 5? Um, you got special permission? I don't know. There were some kids that and especially if you weren't doing very well. And I wasn't. I wasn't doing well and which was so frustrating for my parents, my mother and and, um well, dad would pass by them, but it was so frustrating. I mean, once I even got failed [00:19:30] at school, you know? Uh, only because the teacher was shitty with, Well, he he he he fancied my cousin that he'd done, um, he'd done his training college with and because she didn't even like him. He was a horrible little man. Um, he took it out on me, and I was failed one year, so they took me Mum and Dad took me to the education board. And I did this exam, which was an English exam from England, and I passed everything except arithmetic, and they suggested [00:20:00] that I should be put into the next class where I should be. But the headmaster said no and they held me back. Um, so II I had the teachers against me as well, you know, like he used to make me cry. Get me out in front of the class and make me cry and then take Send me outside and then he come out and say to me, Why did you cry? You know, those sorts of things. So there was only two teachers in my school that were really nice. And that was a married couple. And they were really good to me, Mr Mrs Hardy. But other than that, it was hell. [00:20:30] It was absolute hell. My at school. I loved it. I mean, I. I can see why people murdered people, you know, because I used to think about how can I kill them to get How can I kill these bastards to leave me alone? You know, I used to get asthma attacks because I used to get asthma quite bad. And I used to get asthma attacks. And if I couldn't get if I didn't get one normally just getting stressed out, I'd try and force myself to have one so I wouldn't have to go to school. That's how much I hated it. I love school. Was nothing good about it at all for me. And yet [00:21:00] I loved learning. I loved history. I loved everything. But I hated school because of the kids. And because I was obviously sis, I was obviously a girlie, you know, I was obviously a sissy. There was no hiding it. I was just the way I was made. I just you know, my mother used to say to me, You walk like a girl, for God's sake, walk on them. And the more I tried to walk straight, the worse it was, you know? So it was just the way I was, you know? What kind of words would they tease you with? Oh, sissy. [00:21:30] I was called. I was called Susie right through school. They scratched it on my they scratched it onto my pencil case and thing. And my mother said to me, Who did that? What did you do this for? What fancy do they use the compass? You know, what did you do that for? Who's Susie? And I'm sort of standing there like a blowfish, you know, all red thinking. What am I gonna say? And she said, Oh, I know you got yourself a girlfriend, Have you? And Oh, yeah, That's the first time I thought I lied in my life about who I was because [00:22:00] it got me off getting a hiding from scratching on my You know, my auntie had bought me this pencil case and rule it with all the inlays of wood and everything. And it was expensive, you know? How do you? I said I didn't. And and then, of course, who did? And then, of course, I didn't want to tell her. And then she goes, Oh, I see you've got yourself a girlfriend. And so I got off it that way. But, um, yeah, I school wasn't enjoyable for me. One little bit. You've got really vivid memories, and I'm wondering, what is your earliest memory? [00:22:30] Um, with my grandparent, My grandfather, about two or three carrying me on his shoulders on the wharf to the Rua ferry going to Waiheke Island. They lived in Waiheke Island and I hated the gaps between the the boards on the on on on the on the wharf because I was only little, of course, and my feet could fall between them and right up until I was about 11, I still hated those gaps in my my mother used to say, Hurry up, get across and I I hate it. I [00:23:00] used to jump over them. I hated them, and my granddad used to carry me everywhere and everything. Yeah, that's I'd say about two or three is my most vivid of memories of my grand, especially of my grandparents. My granddad, we just He was always my granddad was always there, and it was later in life and he died when I was three. He had carcinoma of the lungs from the first World War. Um, must must have guess, inhalation. And, um, [00:23:30] he used to come to me at night when I was asleep and I would wake up and I would see this light shining through the Venetian blinds on this bald head. And now to hear this And of course, you forget you forget as you get older, you know? And I forgot that it was my grandfather. We like that and I'd wake up and I'd be like that and nothing would come out, you know? And then all of a sudden I'd be screaming and Mum would come out and settle me down. And later on, I said to my mother, when I when she came to get me [00:24:00] and went home, we we were talking about things and I said to her, You know, how I used to be creaming at night and she said Yes. I said, Do you know what that was? And she said, What? And I explain Well, she said, that'd be your grandfather. And I said, What do you mean? She said. And that was my dad's dad. She said, Well, you were the only child, the only grandchild. And he used to stand at the end of your cot for hours at night, in the dark, just looking at you, just just staring at you because he just loved you so much because you were You were his only grandchild. Because Uncle Harry never had any Children. You see, And so apparently, [00:24:30] there was the apple of his eye. You know, I've got a photo of him holding me in there, but, um, yeah, those are my earliest memories. And and as I said, II, I forgot, You know, that he used to have a wheezy chest until mum said it. And then all of a sudden, I remember that it used to my legs used to be on his chest and how it used to his chest used to heave, you know, when he carried me over his shoulders. So, yeah, that's my earliest memories. It's amazing how just those small things can trigger a memory or trigger something that you've forgotten. [00:25:00] Well, I'd forgotten that he had that. He that he wheezed, you know, because, you know, I was probably about nine or 10 years old, nine years old when this was happening or something. So he'd been dead for about six years, you know, and you forget just those little things. And it wasn't till Mum said it would be your grandfather. And it all flipped into place because then I remember he did have a wheeze, you know, but yeah. So 12. 5 you went and did an apprenticeship. What? What was that French polishing? I went to work for a guy called Doug Elliot [00:25:30] and he worked, Uh, there was in Williamson's road in Auckland. There was a Cabinet maker by the name of Torres and son, which is quite funny because that was my mother's my grandmother's maiden name. And that was my dad's middle name. Eric Torrence and I went to work for, um, Doug Elliott, who worked a subcontractor. Well, he was his own contract, but he used to do all the French polishing and all of that, and and, um, Polyurethanes were just coming out in those [00:26:00] days. And anyway, I worked for him as an apprentice and he had three daughters, young daughters, and he knew that I was the way I was. And he used to say to me, Just like my bloody daughters, you're no different to my girl. And I used to go and stay with him on weekends often because he had the three girls and we used to go out on ponies and that, and it was him that helped me run away Queen's birthday weekend. I was supposed to go on the Thursday night and come and go back home on the Tuesday So I'd have Friday, Saturday, Sunday, [00:26:30] Monday at his place. Go back to work Tuesday and go home Tuesday night. Well, of course I didn't go home. I'd we'd already planned it. He planned it. So that if if Mum rang, then then his wife, what was her name? Doug. And? And, um And she would say that I was out with the girl, the kids, you know, and, um, taking them out on the pony or something. So, um, it wasn't till the Tuesday night that I never [00:27:00] got home and my mother started ringing to ask him where I was, and he said he didn't know that I hadn't come to work that day. And so what happened? Well, I don't know. I wasn't There was I. I wrote, written her a note and, um, cried all the way through. It was all tears. Dane saying that, you know, I didn't want to hurt her because I loved her. And I did. I adored my mother. Absolutely adored her. She could be a hard task master, but I still adored her, and I and I was very much loved by her, and she was very strict. [00:27:30] But the fact is that I wouldn't be where I am today. If it wasn't for her, I learned to cook clean, dig gardens, cut hedges, cut trees, mow a quarter acre section with a hand and all those sorts of things. I was doing that at six and said was cooking at six years old, you know? And, um so she made me Yeah, she was exactly right what she said to my father, I was able to look after myself, and I was able to make a living right throughout my life, you know? And, um but, um, [00:28:00] so I ran away from and I ran away, and I went and stayed with the people next door were she was a German Samon and her husband was a was a Maori. He was from the All Blacks from the thirties, and, um, they were the only dark people in our area and, uh, got snubbed by everybody, of course. And we were middle class, even though we were poor because my father was ill. But we lived in a middle class area Grey. They call it gay not Wasn't gayly in my day, I can tell you, but anyway, I lived in Grey and [00:28:30] they would end up when my mother said you ought to play with them. You're not to play with those other kids. You go in in there and play with them, you know? So I grew up. My mother was very My mother believed that there was good and bad in all people. And, um, you know, it didn't matter what colour your skin was. We were all the same. And so I was brought up to be like that. And they They're the ones that helped me when I ran away, Um, one of the boys next door. He was a seaman merchant Seaman and his mates took [00:29:00] me in, and, um and I used to go on the ships and go all around the place on the ships. You know, I used to ring bolt around the guys used to not for sex, because but I used to go and do the washing and everything for them while they and I stay on the ship. And I went to Australia long before I'd ever really went to Australia. Um, went all around New Zealand and all that sort of thing on these steamship, the the the blue Starlight, all those sorts of boats. So when [00:29:30] you were on the ships, was this as Darryl or as Donna? Um, I was Darryl right up until I worked for Carmen, even though I was in women's clothes, because my mother told me that even if I'd been born a girl, she would have called me Darryl because that's the name she liked. And it was a name you could use for a boy or girl, and it couldn't be shortened because she hated her name was Myrtle shed people calling her my She said, Well, you can't shorten. Um, Darryl, you know. So that's why she gave me the [00:30:00] name and she said, and I asked her, and I said, Oh, what would you call me if I'd been a girl? And she said, This is when I was a little kid and she said, The same Darryl because it's it's it can be used for a boy or a girl. And it's D, a double RYL and the only other spelling I ever saw that was Darryl FX, funnily enough, and there was a lot of Darryl's later on in life, but they all had the one R or something like that. Anyway, um, I. I was Darryl. I was Darryl, but I was in girls clothes and I was Darryl right up until the late sixties [00:30:30] until I went to work for Carmen Carmen's Coffee Lounge. And she said, You can't use that name because you'll have all the Maori in the park coming to look for you because I knocked with all around with all the Maori people, you know. And so she said, You got to change your name. So I changed it to from the perfume Taboo by Dana and I used the Yanks. I used to go with the R and R guys, the black Americans, off the ship, and they used to bring me, uh, taboo, which was the perfume of [00:31:00] the day in those days in the early sixties. And they used to bring it for me because it was like £5 a bottle or £10 a bottle or something in those days. Now it's just cheap, but it was the top of the line taboo by done, and that's where I got my name from Just want to rewind just a wee bit. And when II I just want to go back to the letter that you wrote your mum. Can you tell me about what was in that I wrote to her saying that, um, as you know, Mum, I was I left home because I was a sissy. [00:31:30] Well, that didn't, uh I'm going to be because I was going to be a man. So I put on my suit and I looked good in a suit, as you would know, because we're both torn and looked good in clothes, you know, and go off to get a job and get giggled at all the time. And I thought, Well, if they're going to giggle at me, I'm going to bloody dress as the way I feel. So I put on a dress from that moment on, more or less. Um um when I came to Wellington in 63 it became, uh, because you you couldn't go out at night in women's clothes. We used to go to the pub and then we'd go home. [00:32:00] We'd either pick up a guy to take us home or we'd have enough money for a taxi. We'd go home, put it in our clothes, our girls clothes, and then and then go out on a taxi or something. And the times that we didn't we got chased by the police, myself and I who's now passed away, and they got the dogs onto us and everything. This is a but, um, I was Darryl, and then I came to Wellington to live in 63 permanently. When your mom received that note I I put on it. What did I put? Um, as you know, I was I was [00:32:30] a sissy, and, um well, I live dress. Oh, the note that when I left was I'm leaving home to become a man. I'm sick of being called a a fruit was one of the words I used to say and a I've got to leave home and be a man Stand on my own 2 ft, which I was doing anyway, But this is what people put into your brain, you see, and you start to believe it. Like I believe that I was I was dirty and I was a pervert and everything else, because that's what society told [00:33:00] me. It wasn't until I had my change and I realised I'm not a dirty person. I'm a good person, you know. But it took 30 years, you know, till I was 30 to realise that, you know, because this is what society puts upon you. You're pervert. You're dirty. You know, even the police. Everybody call you these filthy name. So you become to you know, it's like if you're an Aboriginal, you know, from the moment you open you from the moment you're born, you know you're never gonna be anything because then, you know, because there's nothing for you, they don't want you, they don't. There's [00:33:30] no job. There's no nothing, you know? And that was the same. You know, in the sixties, you couldn't get a job if you had a beetle haircut. If you had a beetle haircut and more modern clothes in the sixties in New Zealand, you were up. There was plenty of straight guys that we knew they had Beatle haircuts and wore the modern clothes that mixed with all of us the prostitutes and the lesbians and the queens and the ship moles and everyone at the old bistro bar because they were on. They were classed as as a a AAA as a a minority because they [00:34:00] they were. You didn't have long. Yeah, short, back and sides. And you wore a bloody suit. You don't wear those stove wear pants and all this and that's how that's how straight la yes, we were. I mean, when I left in 1976 people still dressed to go to the city, you wouldn't dare go to the city in a pair of shorts or a tracksuit. And that's in 76. You know what I mean? You still dressed to go to the city. I can remember being on the bus once coming down, um, Taranaki Street and these two old ladies and I had on my [00:34:30] scarf and my rollers underneath and my coat and stockings and shoes and everything. And these two old ladies and I thought they'd sprung me, you know, And yes, I know. She said, Look at her. You can see her knees and she's got no gloves on the slat. So I went home and said to my friend, Oh, I've been called a slut. I've got Yeah, ask yourself. They're saying, you know, but, um you know, that's the way you felt. Because that's the way you were treated. You know, you, didn't you? We were the face of gayness. Even though I wasn't gay, I never [00:35:00] had gay sex or be it. I had anal sex, but, you know, I never had gay sex. And we were the face of gayness because gay men would run and hide might be at the party with them the night before. But you see, you're on the street, they're shot into the shop. They don't want to see you because they could hide behind their male clothes. Whereas, you know, we were the face of it. And we were the ones that got picked on unless you were overtly gay. Then you got picked on, too. But if you could sort of, um, you know, if he was a guy that could sort of scramble [00:35:30] up a bit look acting a bit, but well, then they didn't get picked on, But if you were different, you got picked on, you know? And it's the same as I say in It's in in the, um, museum. Papa was a little bit I said that, you know, we were taught that the police were the best thing before sliced bread because there was no sliced bread in my when I was young and you were taught by your parents. If if if you ever get into trouble, you need help, you go and see a policeman. They didn't say if you're different or you're queer or your your, [00:36:00] uh, a a goth or you want to be a woman or whatever you might be if you're different, you don't go near a policeman because they're God unto themselves. You know, there's one here that used to arrest me nearly every night of the week, you know, take me to the cells and make me dress and undress for every person that worked there. And then to make it his business, I'd fall asleep to wait till the next lot came on, and he'd make me wake me up and make me do it all over again. And there was nothing I could do about [00:36:30] it. No matter how I protested, there was nothing I could do about it. He was God, and that's how they played it. You couldn't if you they he'd say, um, get in the car and I'd say But I've done nothing wrong. He'd say, Get in the car. I'd say I've done nothing wrong. If you don't get in the car, I'll have you up for for hampering a policeman in his line of duty. So get in the car and he'd make his drivers because he always you had underlings with them and they'd be the ones that he'd make. Arrest me, not him. And he'd make [00:37:00] the guy speed off. And of course, we're talking sixties, you know, 63 456. And there was no seat belts, and he'd tear make him tear around at 80 miles an hour around the streets. And I hated speed. And he he knew your Achilles' heels, you see, And he knew I hated speed. Unless I'm in charge of it and I can control it. And he'd be abusing me, calling me a shirt lifter, which I didn't even know what it meant. A poo pusher. Um, all these sorts of filthy things I'd never even heard of in my life and calling me names. And does [00:37:30] your mother know you're a fucking freak and you know, and you fuck ass and I don't do that sort of thing. You know, all this used to really upset me, and then you'd make them pull into an alleyway and turn on the lights. Of course, it's dark in there and I turn on the inside light and you can see yourself in the in the window of the car and he'd push my face and and push it and push it and push it into the window until I said fuck off or pig or something. Go Gotcha and arrest. So arrested, Arrested, [00:38:00] You know, that's what they called you. It rest the thing or whatever, you know, I mean, I came back here in 91 and I and, um my niece was on Marion Street cracking it, and I was talking to her, and this guy kept arresting me one degree and I would pass. Those days were over, and, um and I Oh, I was pissed off and he wouldn't go anyway, All of a sudden, the policeman came around the corner and Stephanie said, Excuse me, Constable, could you ask that guy to take off? He's annoying [00:38:30] my auntie and she he took him away. And I I was flabbergasted absolutely flabbergasted. I said, You know what, girl? I said in my day they would have grabbed me by the shoulder and said, Now punch it for me. Give it one for me because that's what they were like, You know, they were just was shocking in those days. So I mean, no wonder you felt like a piece of dirt. You know, um, and I came to Wellington in 63. Um, I first worked for Manuel Papadopoulos and he had a strip club [00:39:00] in Manor Street. It was then and it was called the It was a restaurant. It went back to being a restaurant. But it was the restaurant called our Meador, and he changed it. And I think he was the first to have a strip club in Wellington, and he changed it. And it was called the club exotic with a QUE on the end of it. And then he opened up in in, um he opened up the purple onion in Vivian Street. And not long after Manuel bought the corner [00:39:30] block and opened up on the first floor. Um, the club exotic. And it was not the the club exotic it was club exotic, but I worked for him when he was a ministry, and, um, I was a waitress and had a good job there. But I stuffed it up because I got pissed one night at the Bistro bar and went on board a ship and never went to work. And the next night, I went to work and he said, No job for you finish. [00:40:00] And I thought, What about my pay? No job, No pay. He never kicked me out. He never said I had to get out of the club or anything, but there was no job. And it took me, um, probably, um, another two years three, another three years at least before I got a job. I mean, I got jobs like the cops would say, You have to get a job. You've got a week to get a job or whatever you have for ID and disorderly, because that's was what they used to. I got put in jail the very first time for idling, [00:40:30] disorderly, and they shouldn't have done it because I was in somebody's house, and that's illegal Idling. Disorderly is when you're in a public place, not in someone's private in someone's home, whether it's rented or what. But anyway, I got a month's jail was Easter Thursday night. We got pinched. The other queen and the other girl had been, was head up for receiving stolen goods. I don't know whether it was a TV or what it was, and they knew I didn't live there because they knew me. So they arrested me for idle and disorderly, which [00:41:00] I never knew until it was too late. That was and I had no judge, no nothing. And we were there Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And it was full of drunk people from ID being idle, disorderly and drunk and disorderly. And because people used to come from all the country areas like Gisborne and all that, And I mean in those days, it took you a whole day to get from a things to here because it was all gravel roads and people come down and get pissed, and it's not like living in the country. Fall asleep in a doorway and they get arrested. Well, the the lock [00:41:30] ups were overflowing, so they had to bring in a justice of peace on Easter Sunday, and he had to miss his Easter Sunday lunch. Well, he wasn't at all happy and he was popping everybody in jail and I knew nothing about my own reconnaissance or anything. So, um, that's yeah. So I ended up doing a month. That was the only time I ever was actually sentenced to jail. And I was going to kill myself because the the the lock up the lock up, let me tell you, at central was disgusting. Your slime used [00:42:00] to run down the walls. You had to pee in a bucket that was black. But in those days, the dye of the black came out of the plastic because they didn't know how to do it properly and everything. There were these buckets that were half black and half white, and, um and it was it was horrible. And someone said, Oh, jails. Mount Crawford is worse than that. And I thought, Oh, my God, I'm gonna kill myself. Well, I got to Mount Crawford. It was like going to hospital. It was perfect. It was It was better than the bloody lock up. Let me tell you, it was clean and cream and green and like, but like the hospitals [00:42:30] and you know, the only thing is I now am a bit agoraphobic in very small spaces. That's what being locked in a cell did to me. I. I tend if I go to a toilet or something and it's small, I tend to leave the door open or make it very quick. Exit I. I find I. I Yeah, I find that that's that's what it's done to me. It's made me a bit. Feel a bit agoraphobic in very small places. I mean, I can deal with it. It's not not a bad thing, but it. Yeah, I notice I do. I get a bit, you know, leave [00:43:00] the door open. Sort of thing in in jail. Were you treated? How were you treated? Fabulously. I mean, they say to you, Would you like to have been put in a girl? A woman's prison? Yeah, I would have. But then again, it's like sending, like sending a prostitute to a to a, um, to to a house full of clients. I mean, you know, there was guys. They were guys, they had no girls. And most of the queens that that had been pinched before me. A lot of them were were [00:43:30] weren't very so they were sort of stuck up because they didn't know how. Whereas I, I just knew how to talk to people. I've always been a person's person, so I've always been able to talk. So I just went in. Then it was just me and got on perfectly. I mean, I never, ever smoked a roll, your own cigarette and the whole time I was in there and every time I got into trouble with the police, I'd get a I'd get a fine, and in the end, I'd have to go to prison to pay for that. Fine. You see, So they always put me back in the same cell and [00:44:00] I always got packets of cigarettes given to me. Um, I got chocolate cake and coffee at night and all sorts of things handed through the window. I was spoiled in jail, very spoiled, even even, um, the governor. Governor Gorman. I wouldn't wear the shoes. They were the of things. And he said, But you you can't, um, have, um, basketball boots because you're not being sentenced to over a month. [00:44:30] You know, you can't have gym boots, and then I said, Well, I'm not wearing them. I go bare feet and he said, Well, you'll just get thrown into the digger And so I said, Well, you can throw me in the digger. So and then he gave me, um he gave me, um, gym boots to wear. Another time I got thrown in the digger for something and the guys, which is which is the under the ground. And you had a a cage that you walked into to do your You didn't come out of this pad. This cell was completely dark. And during [00:45:00] the day, you got out for an hour to stand walk around this cage and I was walking around and the boys were going off to to weed the gardens Veggie gardens, saw me and went on strike and sat on all the way out buildings and refused to work. So they had to let me out of the out of the digger because the boys refused to go to work. Do you let Sally out? They used to call me Sally in jail long to Sally, and the digger was what kind of a nice, um, the dungeon under the ground. You go to the dungeon, [00:45:30] you know, which is No windows, nothing dark. And I was down there for, like, a day and a bit, because the bit the bit was when I was out walking and they saw me and the boys all went on strike and sat on the houses and sheds and refused to do their work. So next thing, uh, acting supervisor, because the other Mr Gorman was away and he shoved me in there and he had let me out. Got in touch with Mr Gorman. Mr. Gorman said, Let it let him out. Let [00:46:00] her out. They all call me. She in there. Did your mother ever come looking for you? Um, yes, she did. Not in Wellington because she didn't know I was in. Well, she did know I was in Wellington because every time I got into trouble, it was in the paper, and my auntie that lived in Main Street would cut it out and send it to my other auntie just to be a bitch. And she was bisexually bloody self, but with hidden it from the family, I sprung that not long after I was here and her husband was bisexually was going with one of the girls that I knew [00:46:30] he was a taxi driver. But anyway, um, she never found me. She never She once in Auckland, she found me Not long after I'd run away and was growling at me and yelling at me in the car, and I just got out and walked away and bawling, and she's trying to make me get in the car. And I just refused. I just kept walking and she had and then I just just took off. Ran away again. So when I was after I turned 21 I might have been 22 or something. [00:47:00] I wrote to her and I said, Well, you know, Mum, I've always been a sissy. Well, I, I left home because I was a sissy. Well, I tried to be a man that didn't work. I've lived and worked as a woman all my life since, and I hope to have a sex change. If you don't want anything to do with me, I will understand. But I needed to tell you this, and she wrote me a letter back. I still got it. And, um, it said the last time she called me Darryl and the last time she put in front of [00:47:30] the envelope the news about yourself. As you know, I'm not a liar, and the news about yourself came as quite a shock to me. But as I've always said to you, you're big enough and ugly enough to look after yourself so you can live your life as you see fit. It's your business, it's your life. And then she answered all the questions about Auntie Phil and all the people I want to know. And next thing she was down a month later, knocking on the front door 224, Adelaide Road. And, um, this girl came up and said, Oh, there's this lovely blonde [00:48:00] lady downstairs, plump blonde lady at the front door, she says. She's very beautiful and she's asking for you. And I went, Oh, she's this lady's downstairs asking for you. I said, Is she blond? Yes, and very beautiful. And I said, Oh, that's my mum and I had rollers in my hair because every night I used to go home from work and do my I was working for I was working for Christine. Do my hair and rollers and puts it. Didn't matter how pissed I was. I had to do do the hair and roll it And, um, I was [00:48:30] on hormones. I started them in 60 65 when I was 19. Uh, these girls came from Australia, these girls and they had boobs, and I wanted to know what it was. And I found out what it was, um, by going home with Natalie and and I was the first in New Zealand to get hormones, and it was across the road. And Doctor used to be in that that house across the road where we used to be once the HDP and the NZ [00:49:00] PC and I came down from Adams Terrace around the corner. I smoke cigarettes smoking cigarettes and then went in and asked for from him. And he said to me, Oh, you know what they do. I said, Just to give you and he goes, No, and they can give you thromb bases and they can. I said, Yeah, that's alright. And I started that you had to pay to go to the doctor and you had to pay for the hormones in those days. And that was in 1965. I was 19, and, um [00:49:30] so I wasn't working Then. I didn't start work for Chris until 1967. I was 21. So it was quite a few years between, um, working for manual and getting a job, another job. And then once I got the job with Chris and Prod, I never took a night off. I never not went to work and improve my worth, you know? And then from then on, I always had and had no problem getting [00:50:00] a job. But up until then and the police used to say, You don't get a job within a week, we we'll we'll arrest you. So you'd go and you'd find a job, and you'd usually get a job as a store man because that's any job that you could get because of your hair and long hair and all that was the thing. And then they'd bring it up, bring up the job and say, Oh, did you know that you got a working for you or a thief or a whatever? Because I'd stolen food and I'd stolen things to survive, you know, and got pinched for them. Yeah, I'd stolen from [00:50:30] food from shops, stolen stockings? Yeah, and got arrested for those sorts of things. And of course so And then they would wait. Maybe a month sometimes. And then you think you're home and home. So I've got a job. At least I got some. Oh, next thing could you go to the office, please? Go to the office. Oh, I. I heard you're a homosexual. I said no. I'm not a homosexual. Well, the police have told me you're a thieving homosexual. We don't want people like you here, I said, but I'm not a homosexual. Yes, I did steal. That was because I couldn't get a job and it was survival. But [00:51:00] the last one was that, um I was still I was there for nearly two months, and I really enjoyed the job. Was, um, Gordon and go and um and then my girlfriend and I decided we would go. We go to the Dole office, which used to be in to Street, which is the old Dole office from the thirties. And they never had the dole in those days. You didn't get the dole. They got found [00:51:30] you a job and they found us and we wanted a job, so they found us. There was no job, so But they found us a job in tobacco picking. And that's where we went. And I was there in 1967 for the whole of 67. And that was the year I turned 21. And that's the year the dollar came in and I was a in the 19 sixties. What was it like to find clothing? Where Where did you get your clothes? Um, well, there was a lady by the name [00:52:00] of Sylvia who had a secondhand shop in Ridd Street just before you get to the lights. And she, um I stumbled upon her one day. Um, she was an English lady, went in there and I was looking at her. She said, Oh, you like that? I said, Oh, yes, but it needs altering. She said, Oh, I do alteration. So she I started going to her like everybody I I used to. If I went somewhere and they were nice to me, I would tell all the other girls, so I So in the end, she became very rich through us. We all used to go to her [00:52:30] and then all the ships used to go there. And all the the the girls prostitutes used to go there and all all the all the lesbians. But lesbians used to go there and get their suits and everything, you know, and she would alter it to fit you and everything. And yeah, that's how. And you bought bought them as well from the shots. But you had to be careful. Some shots wouldn't allow you in the door, you know. No, no, you can't come in here and try anything on. We don't have your sort in here. Yeah, it was. That was what it was like in those days. What about like in Auckland? When? When you were a wee bit younger. [00:53:00] Where did you get clothes from friends? No, I never bought anything in shops then. Not when I was young. No. Got them from friends. The friends I live with, they give me some clothes, you know? And I did have a little stash I'd stashed up. Yeah, so yeah. Um, but yeah. You know, you've said ship mall a number of times. What's the ship mall? You see, younger people don't know what that is. I've actually done a thing on [00:53:30] that for professor from Auckland University about Backslang because we used to speak gibberish. Backslang you, You know, I'm going to the ship, uh, or, you know, put an end in it somewhere along the line, and they don't do that anymore. They don't use that. And so he's made a lexicon about it. It's online. Um, and ship malls were girls that used to with it. That was the name that was given to them. And they were the girls that used to go on [00:54:00] the ships When the Because you got to remember, in the old days, ships had a big crew. They had a big crew that looked after the ship, plus unloading and reloading. And you had, um, stewards that looked after the officers. Nowadays, you're lucky if you've got four people on the ship because they're containers. Whereas everything was loaded by, uh, a devi, you know, or a crane, a hand done, crane or someone sat in a train on the wharf very different. Now it's all automated, and [00:54:30] these girls used to go meet these guys in the bistro bar, which was the old royal oak downstairs or whatever. And they were seamen, and these girls would we would meet them and the whole time. See, people used to think they were prostitutes, but really, they they weren't. They were more escorts. And even then, it was an unsaid thing with the guys that if a girl went on board with you or stayed with you the time you were in port or followed you around New Zealand, then you paid their rent and their bills [00:55:00] and supply food and drinks, and that's what happened. So they weren't really prostitutes. They went with the guy because they liked him. They didn't just go with him for the money. They went with the guy because they liked him. And that was the That was the what you got. If you went with the guy, it was uncertain things seamen would pay for your rent and they would because you weren't working. You see, because you're on the ship with them 24 7 or an on shore at the [00:55:30] pub or whatever, or they go back to your place every now and then. They might want to come off if they had the weekend off to come off and stay at your place so they would pay for your food. They pay for your rent and pay any bills that you had. And then they'd pay for your drinks on board the ship and pay. And all your meals were free on the ships. And so, you know, and that's what what ship malls were. But people presume they were They were prostitutes because they received something in return for being the girlfriend. You know what I mean? You didn't even really have [00:56:00] to have sex with them. They would still do it anyway. You know, it was just the law of the of the seamen. They did it anyway, but there's no longer ship malls. Hasn't been ship males, I don't know since I left in 76 and it was dwindling even then. You know, I don't think there's been ship malls for at least 20 years. And of course, backslang is gone as well now. And that was a thing that was often used on the ship was gibberish and back slang, you know, And you also had your you also had your, um, English [00:56:30] backslang, which was they would say, Um um I'm we wanna go down. The, uh I'm I'm off down the frog and toad jump in the jam jar, which was down the road Jump in the car And, uh and you know, my What would they call it? Um, my Gordon. And go on the Oliver Twist was your watch on your wrist? Um [00:57:00] uh, i'll have an Alice in Durban, which was, which was a bourbon, um, apples and pears with the stairs going up the apples and pears to crack it for a chat, You know, to go and have a talk, you know, um, or things like that. You know, they had their back slang that came from England as well. A rhyming slang. There was, um so, yeah, that's things are very different now. Very, very different. Very good. It's very different. Very [00:57:30] wonderful. But it was It was You know, I used to say I wouldn't wish this life upon my worst enemy because until I went to Australia and got the money to go and have my sex change, life was very, very hard. I worked three straight jobs and still cracked it on a Sunday on my day off to go out and get pissed because by the time you paid your rent and paid your food and paid all your bills, lucky to have $3 left at the end of the week. And I had three jobs. Went to the new City hotel as a as a kitchen [00:58:00] hand and then a barmaid and a waitress, and then went after that at 11 o'clock at night and worked in in the Sunset Strip or one of those places. And in the nightclub was a waitress till three or four in the morning. And I'd still only have about $3 at the end of the week. So there was like, you know, it was just just seemed impossible, you know, to get ahead to get the money or anything for it. You know, to thought the thought of having a sex change, getting money for it was just almost impossible, You know? How much [00:58:30] would it have cost in those days? Um, well, I don't know. To be honest, they were doing I had been pursuing it for many years. I was the first to be to be passed in New Zealand for a sex change by the Wellington Hospital Board. Um which went as far as up, I think nearly as far as Hastings and Wellington Hospital. I did get passed by them eventually. That was within the interference of, um, [00:59:00] Victoria University that my mother got in touch with when? After my mum came to stay with me after I got together with my mother, um, back again and went home and she'd come down one Christmas and after Christmas and one after Christmas, I'd go to her and I'd bring pay for her to come down the next. Anyway, one year she was down and I was. I parted from my boyfriend when I was living in a bed set right opposite Salamanca Road on the terrace, and Mum said to me, What are all these people? Different nationalities? [00:59:30] Getting off the buses, walking up Salamanca Road? I said, Oh, they're going to the university And she said, Oh, give me the phone book about half an hour I give her the phone book and she rings up the university. She says, I want to speak to the head psychiatrist, and I thought, Oh my God, she's gonna do something. But of course I knew she couldn't. I was over 21. And she said that I have a daughter who isn't my daughter. That should be my daughter and I want to do something about her. And he said, Well, can you get a, um, a referral from your GP and come and see me? She said, What time This afternoon? He said, [01:00:00] Gosh, you're pushing it She said, Well, I'm back to Auckland next week She said, I want to get the ball rolling So we went to my doctor, got a certificate and went straight up that afternoon and saw this guy and he was wonderful. He was really, really good. He was the first light. That's everyone else had been so down on me, like I didn't realise that I was going and lying on a cadaver table at the Wellington Hospital at the They had me [01:00:30] in the, um, the psychos, whatever it is, uh, psych, psych, psychiatric part. But a psychiatric part also had a part where they did investigations on the brain and everything. So they had a caver table and they put a sheet over it and used to shove me on that with nothing on and a sheet over me and every man and his dog used to come in and touch me and look at me. It was absolutely horrendous. I should just lie there with the tears rolling down my face because I absolutely hated anybody looking at me down there. [01:01:00] And, um, the guy would hit a hole in the wall and he had these big, real tapes and he was talking about me having abnormal testes and no, no muscles like a female. Or is it? But they always used to come out and say, Well, our advice to you is go home and put on your shorts and have a good game of football because you'll never be a woman. You'll be a drag on society, a dragon, maybe darling, but not on society. And the more they said that, the more it made me determined that they were. But I mean, it used to absolutely gut me. I'd [01:01:30] go home absolutely gutted and bawling and name after my and I've been doing that for Oh, well, about, UM, 17, 18, 1920 2022 about six or seven years before my mother came. And then when Mum came and she got in touch with him, and then they started to take notice. I know. I was passed. I was the first to be passed to have a sex change when they got a free clinic because I was physically and mentally female except for my genitalia. [01:02:00] And I mean, to this day, they don't have a free C cleaner, You know, they do two a year, maybe. You know, I did have two appointments to go to. To have it both times. Something happened. It wasn't meant to be. I wasn't meant to have it there. I was meant to go to Cairo. It was meant to be. I was at home there, you know? Yes. So, um yeah, IIII. I went to Australia when I went to Australia. That was when life changed for me. What year were you passed? 70 [01:02:30] 70 71 or something like that? Before my mother died because mum died in 72. And that was the first time in New Zealand that somebody had been passed, passed for a sec. You know, given the hospital board had passed somebody. Yeah, yeah, that was the first time. And, um and then I went to Australia in 76 and they passed me in a month with all my New Zealand papers. That said, I'd have to wait [01:03:00] for two or three years because I was a New Zealand citizen. But I didn't realise until many years later when I spoke to one of the psych psychologists and he said, and he happened to let it drop that yes, we were remiss. And that, and and and not allowing people of your height to, um have to be passed. So there again, I was hampered over there, not by being a New Zealand citizen. That's what they used was because I was too tall as far as they were concerned. [01:03:30] Yeah, why would that have made a difference? Being tall or as far as they were concerned, you wouldn't fit in, you know, to the to them you had to be able to fit in as if you know it didn't care whether it was they didn't care. Whether it what made you happy. It's what made them happy. And what made them happy was somebody they could put into society. That was unspin. This is how they spoke. You must and get rid of all your past life and all the friends that you've [01:04:00] had, which I could never understand because my friends, I've still got them 30 40 50 60 years later, I've still got the same friends. You must get rid of them. And you must never admit ever that you were what you were. You never admit it to anybody. And I said, you're a psychiatrist and you're telling me that I should be saying these things. How can you love somebody and want to spend your life with somebody? And you don't tell them your past or no. If you do, you'll always be [01:04:30] thwarted. And I said, Well, so say love. I could not possibly, um, spend my life with someone telling a lie. Well, you have to. They that was and and that that and that still, I think, is their their motto. You you never admit to it. You never say that you've you know And they wanted me to have voice lessons and all the rest of it. I. I just want to change what's down there. I don't want to change anything else. I'm happy with who I am. It's you that's unhappy, [01:05:00] not me. I'm only happy with what's between my legs. You're the one that's unhappy. The rest of me. I'm happy. I've got lots of boyfriends. I. I didn't want to say I make heaps of money. But I was, you know, because I was by then working as a prostitute in the brothel of my own. It was my own and turning up to these to, um this is before it became, um, Monash. They were doing it at, um, Roy the Royal, the Royal Hospital Royal, the Royal Hospital in [01:05:30] in Royal Melbourne. And there was a guy who actually was, uh, who was who got head up for per through the windows and masturbating at us girls in our homes. I mean, please ask yourself, you know, they didn't want to give me a sex change, but they allowed someone like that to go on to be a counsellor for people. Uh, you know where where is he? He wouldn't pass me because I was too tall, you know, I just didn't understand how I found out is my friend of mine was murdered, [01:06:00] and I went to open the book launch for the author that did the book. Um um and she was murdered and what they found her found her 17 years later here, years later, in a mine shaft she said was a Kiwi girl. And, uh, this woman, um, her name was Robin Bowles. Wrote a book, um, justice the night about her. And, um, II I opened, you know, I did a did a talk for it. And, [01:06:30] uh yeah, and the psychologist was there with a girlfriend of mine, and he said, Oh, who's she? And at the time, I was working as a receptionist and I was the first in Melbourne to get the licences. So change the licence changed. So I could be a relieving because you had to tell them a week before you were, um, reception where you were going and all the rest of it because you had a licence. So you had to be a licence. And anyway, I got this them to change it so I could be relieving and go and help people [01:07:00] when they, you know, went just one holiday. And I also opened brothels for people, um, and got all the store and got it all going and moving. And, you know, I knew all the outlets to get towels and where to send them to be washed. And we had to buy this and we had to buy that. And the I was the first to get a doctor to come to check the girls from the Burnet Centre and and and, um, in Melbourne And, um so I was quite well sought [01:07:30] after. And I had come from opening this just opening this brothel, and I was in a black suit and everything in my briefcase and all my stuff, and he was quite taken by me, you know? And he said, You know, Um oh, who is she? She's fantastic. And and and, um, Samantha said, Oh, that's a good friend of mine. Her name's Dany said, Oh, could you introduce me to her? And, um So I was introduced to him and he said to me, We didn't do you, did we? And I said, No, you didn't. I was done in Egypt, I said, and I was told if I went there, you'd have nothing to do with me. [01:08:00] And I said, And I said I didn't couldn't care less and he said No. And that's where he said, you know, In hindsight, we we were remiss and not granting permission for people of your statue and height to, um to to have the sex change, he said. Because you're just amazing. He said, You're exactly what I'd like to put up and show what can happen to somebody. And he wanted me to join the board and everything. You know? I said, Well, you're too late. I'll be leaving soon and going back to New Zealand. [01:08:30] But he wanted me to join the board. He's now passed away, and he was on there for years. He was a real ward. He actually came on after I. I was had gone through the board. He came along a little about a year or so later, you know. But, um, he was a German man. He was fantastic. He was the only one on the board that stood up for the girls and and saying he wanted them to change the birth certificates and change the passports. The others. All they were interested in was making money out of us, you know? [01:09:00] So you had to travel to Egypt to I went to Egypt. Yeah, I did. I didn't have to, but I did because I wasn't waiting any longer. I promised myself within the year of leaving New Zealand, I would have it. And if I didn't? I was. It wasn't I wasn't gonna worry about it. For 17 years of my life, it had been the bane of my life Trying to get the sex change. I was 30 I still hadn't got it, you know? And so I had girlfriends that had been to Cairo, uh, to Professor Bahari. And so I just I had already I'd written to lots of doctors [01:09:30] and, um, I went to him. I went, uh, I arrived the first of March 1976 and at 11:30 p. m. first of March 1976 in Tuam Marine Airport in me, uh, Melbourne and I had my sea change on the 27th of February 1977 in Cairo, Egypt, Exactly within the year that I wanted to do everything and, um, best thing they ever did. Best place I ever went to it was meant to be because [01:10:00] as a kid, that was the only butch thing I used to do except be a cowboy because I had chaps on I could pretend they were a skirt, but I used to put on this sheet and my father's, um, dressing gown cord. You know how they tassels and that and wrap it around the sheet and get on the Put the cat under one arm and get on the straw broom and tend I was on a came on and it was a shake of a That was the only thing I sort of did, but because it could have all this flowing sheet around me, you see. So when I and by the time I got there, I also learned a bit of Arabic and [01:10:30] being a prostitute, you learn lots of languages. And because I could I had learned Maori when I was young, even though I lost a lot of it, I still was able to pick up languages very easy so I could speak quite a bit of a, uh, Arabic when I got there. You know, I knew how to say different things and get different things, and and, um, understood, you know? So it was easy peasy for me. It was the best place I could ever have gone. I was was just one and they treated you wonderfully over there. They didn't treat you like freaks. They treated [01:11:00] you like Allah had made a great big mistake. That's what they say or Allah make big mistake. How can a Allah must? It's very strange from your country. All these beautiful girls come and Allah make big mistake with these girls. That's what the people used to say in the hospital. They just couldn't see that we were boys at any time, you know at all it just, you know, and there's heaps of us. New Zealand girls went there and Aussie girls went to in the seventies. And [01:11:30] he was a fabulous man. Absolutely fantastic made you feel so at ease and so wonderful. And and it was the best thing I had to walk to theatre. You had to walk to theatre. That was another part of his, you know, like he said to me when I arrived and arrived in the morning. I left on a Saturday and arrived on a Saturday morning, and, um, he met him in his office and he said that they'll take you to your room and and you get undressed, he said, and put on your night and get to bed, you know? So I got [01:12:00] into the bed and he said straight away, he knew I'd had a boob job. Um, And then as he was walking away, I said to him, Oh, II I should tell you, I have He said, I know you're going to say asthma. I said, yes, I've got asthma and he said, I know this already, and and he he was He was just amazing, amazing man. And I actually lost my asthma. But after I had my change, I got a little bit now, but I never had it near as bad From the moment I left [01:12:30] home, it got better and better and better, except for Wellington, because it was so damp in the winter. I used to get a bit sick sometimes, but, um, Wellington was better than Auckland for me with my asthma. And so he knew that he was just amazing. And I said, Oh, I've got um um prostate. I you don't have to I know this. He said he was just amazing. And I said to him, Oh, good. Can you tell me what it's gonna be like or he said. And this is the wonderful thing he said to me. He said, Um, he always called me demilo He said to me, um demilo, [01:13:00] there's nothing I can tell you. You're already there I said, What do you mean? He said, You are already there. This will be just a little a little thing that will just carry you on your way And I said, I don't understand. He said, Well, I tell you, I have one coming from Queensland who's a millionaire who's in his fifties and has done dressed as a woman on weekends, only has a grown up family, and he said, and I am going to do this [01:13:30] operation because he wants it so badly. But I believe and he was the only one that he called. He was her and he was. He said, I believe within a year he will be dead because he has not lived as a woman. He's not lived amongst anybody as a woman. And it was true. He was a multi millionaire at a pink farm and a fucking cow farm. He owned a um um what do you call them? A AAA dress shop? You know, a boutique [01:14:00] he had, uh he was just loaded. He had two, adopted Children and a wife and their Children had grown up and given them a farm. Each he had he had everything set out, but within the year. So he went back on the farm as a woman and no one had ever dealt with him as a woman. It was too big a shock people couldn't understand. And he expected everybody to just accept him as Jackie the woman. And they couldn't. It was Jack the man that that he hadn't even transitioned. I mean, yes, he did. He used to fly to [01:14:30] Sydney every weekend. He had his own plane and dress up all weekend on and go out in Sydney. But he never actually transitioned. And where he came from in Queensland and and I found out a year later he did die. He did kill himself. So Bahari was right. I said, Well, why are you going to do it? He said, if I don't want somebody else with he said, But that is the difference between you and this person. And I knew exactly what he said because I went out with her and another two girls. There was [01:15:00] already one girl there from Sydney, and another one came as a nurse and she'd been a a male nurse but transitioned at her job. And they accepted her at a private hospital in Sydney. And her name was Jackie, too, funnily enough, and she'd answered an ad in the paper saying that a person there was a person wanting to go to Egypt, to Cairo for an operation, and she knew exactly what it was because she'd been there herself. And funnily enough, she'd had a little bit of trouble. She had a scar on the inside of her vagina, and she was going to have it fixed, which Bahari fixed it for nothing for her [01:15:30] when he found out because she'd had a little bit of an infection and they had to have her anyway, and she he wouldn't accept the money she wanted to pay him with the money that she got from going with Jackie. And then there was another girl there already before, and her name was Laura, and she'd been there six days before me from Sydney. And anyway, when I got out of bed after we were 10 days in bed. You see, after I got out, they we decided we were going out for lunch and we were going to the Hilton Hotel for lunch. And this other the one from Queensland. I must. [01:16:00] She looked like a woman. She was a little bit horsey. I beautiful eyes, beautiful colour, grey hair, natural. She looked like one of those top those women that have got money from America. You know, those ones are a bit horsey looking, you know, until she opened her mouth and and the way she walked a bit, too. And we get to the Hilton Hotel and I'll never forget. And the guy's pushing in her chair to sort of sit down the waiter and she goes, Oh, I can't wait to have a fucking good steak And [01:16:30] I just about fell through the seat and I just and I remember what he said. You know that that that I was there and and there's this person older than me and everything and should be wiser than I was and wasn't at all you know. So I understood exactly what he meant, But at the beginning, when he first said it, I didn't understand when he kept saying that. But you are there, you know? So that was to me. Later, I realised that was a great compliment that he paid me, you know, saying you are already there. There's nothing for me to tell you. It'll be just feelings [01:17:00] as such. He says, just feelings as such will be different. So did you travel to Egypt by yourself? Yeah, I did. Um, I intended. Yeah, I'd intended to. Well, I was somebody who was going to come with me at one part of it, but I'd already booked by by myself and everything. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I was was nothing gonna stop me. And she was supposed to come and her mother got hurt, and she came back to New Zealand and her brother got killed and her mother was in hospital. This girl and she [01:17:30] arrived back two days before I was ready to go to, and she begged me to wait one more week and she said, And I'll have the money to go. And I said, No, no, no way. I nothing will stop me. This is this booked. Everything is there, and there's no way I'm stopping for anybody, and I Yeah, and I left. I went on my own, but it was fantastic. I mean, there was all other girls that had been before me, so I knew a lot about it, you know? So I knew about it, and, um, and Professor Bahari was just amazing and sister [01:18:00] and that they were just amazing people. Just amazing. And it's funny, you know, he had a granddaughter. I knew that he had a son that was a dentist. And he had a daughter that was a doctor. And she became a professor and do and he became the son was a professor in dentistry. And I got a phone call from Australia a couple of years ago before, and it was a friend of mine who had her changed before me by the name of. And this girl had got in touch with her and and she was actually Baha. Excuse me, Bahari's granddaughter, [01:18:30] And she was a gay girl. And it had T tweaked her her imagination. They had found in his drawer in his desk when he died. He died when he was 80. So it was 60 something when he didn't mean and they didn't know that he'd been doing sex change operations. And yet they used to announce us on the radio and everything and say, Oh, special guests from Australia or wherever. Professor Bahay special guest, you know, and they'd play the bloody tiny kangaroo down. And I said, I'm not [01:19:00] an Aussie. I'm a And they played an Aussie out. But anyway, um uh, yeah, she said they never knew that he'd done these operations. He'd only done one Egyptian girl, and he didn't introduce me to her and his his That's a whole story on its own. Egypt. It was amazing. And, um and she got in touch with with Henny and Henny got in touch with me and she was going to do it, um, going to do a, um, a documentary on him because [01:19:30] she found all the letters and photos in his drawer and they didn't know and I said, Oh, well, I knew that he had about a mother. I said, uh, a doctor, a daughter that was a doctor and a professor. And I knew that he had a son that was a dentist and a profession. Oh, yes, the the daughter is my mother and, um and she said we knew nothing about it, But we read all these beautiful letters and saw all these photos and things, she said. And it's, you know, And so I wanted to do [01:20:00] a documentary about him because they did not know that he did those sort of operations. They knew about him that he was quite He was very famous plastic surgeon, uh, and reconstructive surgeon. He did a lot of that, but they didn't know that he'd been doing sex changes as well. He was doing them for 10 years before I went and he told me how he first started and everything. It's very amazing about his story and I. I was there for longer than usual because they were at the time they were having the trouble with Israel. And [01:20:30] like we're having now and and, um, I met and everything through through through Bahari. He took me to house and I, and they were having at the time, the first Arab summit meeting ever for the a E, which is the UAE United Arab Emirates and what's his name? Muldoon was there, and I met Muldoon, and he was told to watch his mouth and keep his hands to himself and in Egypt, because he you [01:21:00] know, he's a bit loud and touching women and that, and it was just unheard of in those days, you know? And he introduced me to him, and he said to me, he said, Oh, this demilo de Milo. This is a man from your country. His name is Robert Muldoon. I said I know who he is. I'd actually voted for the first time in my life was when I was voting against him. And I left the country not long after he got in, actually, um, the next year he got it at the end of I think, like November or December, whenever it is. And the next year [01:21:30] I left and he said to me, Oh, and he goes, This is This is this is And when did you leave New Zealand? I said when you got into power and he went on but sign it and then went for about 10 or 15 20 minutes. And he goes, And when do you think you will be going back to New Zealand? And I said when you get out of power, please Excuse me. I'm just going to power to my nose. I do hope you'll find another seat by the time I return. I didn't want to sit next to her. And when I came back to Harris pushing my chair and he goes to Milo, you were very hard on him. [01:22:00] I said, Well, put it this way. Did you like NASA? He said, Oh, I understand perfectly. I said I I'll have another martini, please. With two olives. He was gone When I come back. Yeah. You know, I didn't want to talk to him. I didn't like him, But actually, I got to like him. The longer I was away, the more I got to like him. You see, I didn't because I'm very maori orientated because I grew up with them. And, um and he when he said, we're gonna send the Maori kids back to [01:22:30] the everybody took Umbridge and that and yet he was right. He was right. We all took Umbridge at that. We all said, Oh, how dare you say that. And now when you look back on it, he was right. Because if you had sent those kids home to the marae the elders would have made sure that they behaved themselves. So he actually was right. But at the time we were We were all because he was because it was his. It was his. It was his abrasive ways as well, I think because actually, [01:23:00] he ended up being liked by all of the Maori in the end, you know, and the gangs and all and and and and the guys on the bikes and all the rest of it, they quite respected him because he was he actually was better than you. It was just his obtrusive way about him, you know? He was Yeah, but, um yeah. So that was another story when I was there meeting him, you know, and I met Amma Sadat and he told me he would be murdered. He said I would not be surprised if I'm not assassinated. [01:23:30] And I said Why? He said, because I'm brokering peace between Egypt and Israel, and I will be hated by my Arab neighbours. But I do not want my country in turmoil. And at the time I only saw two beggars on the street. All the rest of them he got That was the first place I'd ever seen people washing windows of cars. Now, this is 1977 and they would wash your windows with a rag and a bucket, [01:24:00] and you paid them if you wanted to. If you didn't, they didn't harass you for it. You bought Lily of the Valley on a little cord that you put around your neck. They made fans out of the frogs of the palms and put it together with stringy stuff they made from out of palms and that and made rope like we make it out of a. They made it out of their way. And they made little fans that were all cut out. You could buy for, like, a PS, that which is like half a cent, you know, it was very cheap. Um, [01:24:30] in the valley, they they were all selling, making things and selling them. That's what had done. He wanted people. They might be poor, but you don't have to just sit there with your hand out to try and do something to make your make money. And I saw one old lady that was half blind with a baby, and I saw a blind man and I was actually at Giza the pyramids, and I was sitting in the car and this blind man was feeling his way around the cars. [01:25:00] And as he was coming towards the back of our car, the driver wound the window up and the guy came and I went to speak to me and the guy went past. And then I said to him, Why did you tell me to be quiet? He said I didn't want him to hear me And I said, Well, why wouldn't you give him some but means money, you know? And he said, because we don't believe in giving unless you can give for life cos I wouldn't give to them either. Cos I used to see these Yanks, you know? And this yank you went Oh, on, honey, Throw them a few bucks. She throw [01:25:30] them a few dollars, honey, you know, And I thought, Oh, how to meaning, You know, they were they how they yell and talk. And I thought, Oh, how to meaning bad enough being poor and asking for it. Never mind about Oh, honey, Chuck on a few pastors, you know? And I thought, Oh, I don't want to do that. II. I just feel that's and him saying to me, We don't believe in giving unless we can give for the rest of their lives I understood immediately, he said. We exactly like me. If I'd lived [01:26:00] there, I would have taken them home and said, Come on, you can be my gardener. You can do this and I'll feed you And you can sleep in that room there for nothing, you know? And that's what people did. They they became because not very many. There was no houses On one level, they're all 12345 levels and you have a gate, man. A man looks after the gate at a certain time of night. He shuts it, you know, and all that. And when you come home, you give them a couple of fiestas or a fiesta or something for opening the gate for you or something, you know. And, um so I And he said we will only be believe, believe, he [01:26:30] said, because he's he's hungry, but not as hungry as he was. And if I give him money for food, he will be hungry like he was before. In other words. What he was meaning was to give him something to eat will make him full again. And then he'll go through all that pain of being hungry again and starving again until he gets to a stage where he's no longer feeling hungry. And I thought, Yeah, that's what I. I like that idea. It's better to take somebody [01:27:00] in than chuck them a few dollars because you're really not helping and you're only exasperating it on by just it's only feeding them for one day. Um, it's not getting them out of, and they might go for another week without a feed, because the the Arabs themselves don't give money. They do not give. It's the it's the tourists that give money and and the same as when you go to to Giza, where the where the pyramids are, those people with all the camels [01:27:30] and that they're rolling in it. You think they're poor and they're not poor at all. They're rich, and I was told that by the same guy in the car, he said to me, see them? He said they got more money than than than you or I put together. He said, You don't think they have, but they have. He said they've all got nice houses and cars and everything. He said they make lots of money being here at this tourist spot, So Yes. Yeah. So, yeah, that was That was I. I loved it. Loved it. So was Egypt [01:28:00] in the operation? Was it as you were saying, Just a small thing, or was it a a big change for you? You know, when the the doctor was saying to you Oh, this is just a It was a small change for me. How did you feel? I didn't Uh uh Well, going to the going to have the operation was like, Absolutely I've I never felt euphoria like it in my life because I knew I was going to get what I wanted. What I what I needed and and And I had got to an age. I was 30 [01:28:30] I got to that age knowing that it didn't matter. You don't have a sex change for a man. You don't have it for money. You don't have it for public conception. You have it for yourself. It has to be to make you feel free to make you feel one. I say this to all the girls. If you're doing it for somebody else, don't do it. You must do it because you want it. It's what you want, and it's what you need for your psyche to feel complete. [01:29:00] And I had an injection before I went and I had injections before. They didn't do anything and I was bouncing off the walls. I was so joyous and I was going into all the rooms going, Good morning, you see, which is French? We'll see you later, you know, because they spoke French as well and I walked all the way to theatre and they were all standing and they wear khaki. They don't wear white, it's a okra colour and they're all standing with their because they've all been scrubbed and gloved and they're all standing [01:29:30] with their hands like that. You know, it's very much like you see Egyptian mummies. That's exactly how they were standing, and I had to get on this table and the table was like a little It was a narrow table long and I can remember lying down, and by then my mouth was dry and I was my heart was thumb. I was so excited and the guy said to me, Have you any false tits? And I thought he said tits. And I thought, Oh, they never told me [01:30:00] that. Oh, he's gonna take my tits out. Oh, but they came back with tits and I'm going. I'm going. No. Yes, but you're not taking them. And he said, No, no tits, tits. And he meant teeth. Well, my mouth was so dry he couldn't get them out, but anyway, he got them out. And that's the last I remember. I don't remember. And then I woke up. I remember waking up. I've got photos of me they took of me. When I was, I woke up. I was very cold because he he he couldn't put my legs in stirrups because he was [01:30:30] only he was only a short man himself. He couldn't get past my legs because they were too long. So he had to drop my legs at the bottom. And of course, um, my circulation went on me and everything and I I died on the table. But, you know, they brought me back, but, um, I woke up. I was freezing cold when I came to, I was absolutely freezing, shuddering all over. And I had, like, about 10 hot water bottles and about 14 blankets all over me all piled up and a drip. Yeah, but I was fine. Can I have the key to my drawer? Put my [01:31:00] teeth in and grab my joy and put my back on? I was fine. I was fine. I didn't, uh it was funny. It was like because you're 10 days in bed, Um, and they put me on morphine and morphine made me speed off my tits. I was off my face. I couldn't go to sleep. I was waxing my legs because, you see, having a having anaesthetic makes the hairs on your body going. I was waxing my legs. I was painting my toe out was when my toe would grow and everything. And then on the third day, I was really, really [01:31:30] agro. I was very, um, touchy and uncomfortable. I sore back because I couldn't sleep and all the rest of it and, um and, uh, the nurse came to give me an injection, and And in those days in in Egypt, they still used the glass. Um a glass, um, syringe and a needle on the needle on the end. And she and every morning they'd come in and give me three injections. And this morning she jammed [01:32:00] it into my ass and I fucking hated them, you know? And when I when I'd had other injections, I hadn't injections for years because I love them because I'd had them as a child for penicillin and it was absolutely painful. And when I went to have injections to go overseas, I mean, they were they hardly hurt. They were so fine. And they were disposable, But they didn't have disposable ones at that time over there. And so she jabs me in the arse, and it's stuck there, pulls the syringe off, and the needle is still in there, and she pulls it out and she's sharpening [01:32:30] it on the side of the glass, you know? And I right through the wobbly. No, no, I'm not having any more in Get out. Fair enough. Don't want any more injections. Get Professor Bahari. So he came to see me and I said, I don't want any more needles. I don't need them. He said Oh, but you I said, What are they? He said. One is morphine. I said, Yeah, well, that's why I can't sleep And he said, Why are you allergic to it? I said, I don't know. I've never had it, but I haven't slept for three days. I'm just about going [01:33:00] mad And he said, and I said, What's the other two? He said, one is an antibiotic. I said, Why's that? And you know all the years that I had antibiotics for my asthma and my chest infection, and they never told me I should take multi vitamins and minerals because that's what antibiotics do. They deplete your body, he said, because your body is depleted of minerals and vitamins because of the antibiotics, you have to have them. Never had them, he said. Well, I don't know why you don't get them in Australia, but this is what you must do with antibiotics, and [01:33:30] the other one was that was an antibiotics and the other one was a multivitamin. I said, Well, I don't need them. I don't need that morphine. I'm not in pain. I don't need the antibiotic and I don't need the You can give me those and pills can't you? And he said yes. So they gave me the pills because he said otherwise, you'll get a slight infection. Well, sure enough, Two days later, I had a little slight infection, so he gave me some antibiotics by pills, and it was gone. Just a slight infection around the stitches that didn't even come to anything. It was, you know, and, um so I never [01:34:00] had any needles after that. And he gave me this pill. I'll never forget these pills. They were like horse tablets. And I slept for, uh and I mean, what's her name? Wanted one. she wanted one. Well, it knocked her out for 12 hours, and he knocked me out for five. I was like, a break five hours later, but I was bit for it because I'd had a good sound sleep, you know, but yeah. Um, So, um [01:34:30] and then I came home, but I was lucky I was there for more than usual because of I said, because of and also the Shah of Iran was having the longest reigning monarchy was celebrating that, and they were they were having, um, Queen and Prince Philip were coming and and and an and Charles. And they'd never had all that many, um, Royals together coming out of the country and all the rest. So when I when I went to Egypt all the way along, there were guys with guns on their shoulders, [01:35:00] but no, when I was coming back, they had their gone. All of them had their guns coughed and loaded right through as far as, um, um, Asia. Yeah. And, um but I was there for nearly two months instead of only a month because I couldn't get a plane out. And as it was, I was four days in transit because they could only fly you at night because there was no fighting at night in those days. And so they would fly you at night to the nearest destination [01:35:30] and you'd stay there and all day you'd sit in the bloody airport until evening and then they'd fly you to the next destination went to and all sorts of places, you know, on the way back, how did the operation change you in terms of kind of within yourself? Made me strong made me become me. I was a finally done of the person I needed to be wanted to be. And I was from then on, I could stand up and say, No, you can't do [01:36:00] this to me. No, I'm not a bad person. No, I'm not gonna take your, you know, like we got jobs. And when we did get jobs working, we got the poorest of wages working in nightclubs and that, and treated like shit. We really did. We I mean, you know, be grateful you got a job, and this is what you get. $17 a week or something, you know, and you work your butt off as a waitress or whatever. I mean, I think the strippers were getting $3 a strip or something. You know, the girls that were strippers? Um, what it did to me, It it completed me. I was complete. [01:36:30] I was to me. I always say Egypt was my birthplace. You know, Cairo was my birthplace. Um, it didn't change the way I felt at all. I felt no different. I'm no different as a person. All my friends will tell you that even the ones that knew me before my change and I'm no different, but it made me stronger. as a person, I began to realise that No, I'm I am good. I'm not a freak. I'm no different to the next person. In fact, I might be better than that person. [01:37:00] And also that I wasn't going to be standing to be pushed around anymore by people. And be just grateful you've given me a job. No, I'm good at my job. And if you don't want to pay me properly, well, I'll go somewhere that will, you know. So I That's what it did for me. It completed me. It made me become who I am, who I am today. I. I don't I don't think I I was any different. I was just a little bit more. I was more timid, you know, Like when somebody yelled out Oh, you're a man. [01:37:30] You, you, you you You felt inside that you were because you still were. Whereas it was years later, somebody said it to me like I think it was like 10 years after I had my change and somebody said you I burst out laughing when they said, Oh, you're a man. You know, I just laughed it. It meant nothing to me. It just rolled off my back like water. Whereas before I had my change, you knew what they were saying was right deep down, even though they didn't know they didn't know they [01:38:00] were only guessing, you know, Like I said, you know, they don't know what's in your pants. Only you know what's in your Nobody else knows. They're just surmising, but because you knew what they're saying was right, that's that You felt bad. You It made you feel dirty. You know, it made you feel like you were. And so after my change, what it did for me was just made me who I be happy. You know, I, I It was the best thing that ever happened to me.

IRN: 688
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/marriage_equality_conference_joseph_habgood.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004089
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089383
TITLE: Joseph Habgood - Marriage Equality Conference
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Joseph Habgood
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Barack Obama; Community Law (Wellington); InsideOUT Kōaro; James Barron; Joseph Habgood; KAHA Youth Hui (2009); LegaliseLove (Wellington); Louisa Wall; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Marriage Equality Conference (2012); Nayland College; United States of America; Wellington; activism; adoption; civil unions; depression; equality; government; hate crime; homophobia; human rights; identity; law; love; marriage; marriage equality; mental health; organisation; peer support; prejudice; queer straight alliance (QSA); school; social justice; straight; suicide; support; transcript online; transphobia; violence; youth
DATE: 2 December 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Community House/Press Hall, 80 Willis Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Joseph Habgood, one of the founders of LegaliseLove, talks about the beginnings of the organisation. This interview was recorded during the Marriage Equality Conference held at Community House in Wellington. The transcript for this podcast was generously sponsored by James Barron.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So, uh, yeah, my name's Joseph. He and I'm currently the communications officer for legalised Love. Wellington. Um, I also, um, have have the privilege of being one of the founders of of legalised Love, as it then was back in the day. And the idea for this essentially came about out of quite a horrific sort of story from the United States back in September 2010, Uh, there were a spate of quite terrible homophobic attacks and suicides, and that gave, um I guess the impetus to, [00:00:30] uh, this campaigner in, in sort of in in North America to start what became Spirit Day, which was every October 20th. Um, there's an event, um, where everyone wears purple to their school or place of work. And, um, back in 2010, I had the idea that that we that Spirit Day needs to be an international thing. That that something that that is, this sort of, um, came about out of this higher price, I suppose needs to not be lost. And if anything positive can come from it, it needs to be [00:01:00] so on this lead up basically to a rally on the 20th of October, 2011, Uh, where we we brought around about 300 people, um, marching on parliament. And I guess because I see the world in a very sort of legalistic sense, I'm a I'm a law student. So what I wanted to kind of do to help was push for, uh, legal equality and marriage and adoption and so that those were the two kind of planks that legalised love was formed on. Since then, Uh, obviously. And at the start of 2012, [00:01:30] we had this mindset of, you know, we want to keep pushing for these things, and we thought that, you know, it was a really it was a worthy cause to go towards um But we were kind of thinking, you know, maybe in the next three years, four years. And then, of course, president Barack Obama said, You know what? I think same sex marriage is something good. And then all of a sudden, all of our politicians start, you know, having a comment on it, and we thought, there's got to be a moment, you know, soon in our history where this will be debated and then Of course, Louisa Wall introduced her bill and we thought, Wow, it's really impending. So we started preparing for, [00:02:00] you know, the imminent debate. But we thought even then, you know, it was statistically unlikely for it to come out this year. And we thought, we've probably got a bit of time next day it was drawn, um, which, you know, was quite an exciting experience at the time. I was sitting in a law lecture and kind of trying to ignore my phone, which kept going off. And then I kind of a glance at the third text and just, you know, nearly jumped to the moon, which was brilliant. Um, but yeah, since then, um, at that I started off kind of being, um the the leader of legal legalised love. [00:02:30] I soon sort of stepped down into a more communicative role, which I think I personally like it better. Um, but it's been like the actual people involved in legalised love have changed over a couple of times, but I think consistently through it, we've had this this energy of I've been, you know, I feel like it's been an absolute privilege to work with everyone who has been involved in legalised love from the start. You know, some people are still there. Some people are not. But we've always had this energy of wanting to change the world. So, yeah, I've [00:03:00] I think it's been a really, really good journey. Um, our future. I'm not entirely sure uncertain of like after the spill is is dealt with. And I'm, you know, incredibly confident that New Zealand will come down on the right side. Um, obviously, we're not complacent about that, and we're ready to do whatever it takes to make sure that happens. Um, but once marriage, equality is a reality in New Zealand, I'm not sure where the group will go. Um, obviously, we still have in our hearts desire [00:03:30] to fight homophobia and transphobia as hard as we possibly can, whether that's as part of legalised love or whether that's as part of other groups we've yet to decide. But essentially as a kind of conclusion underpinning everything we do, at least everything I do. And I think you know, um, my my friends have this in common with me is that homophobia and transphobia are you know, I think not. I don't want to say the most because there are a lot of terrible things in the world, but certainly two of the most terrible things that that modern society [00:04:00] is cursed with. And I think the elimination of them is a goal that we all have to work towards, like I'm personally straight. I don't identify as an ally because I think the word ally implies that there's some sort of, um, special privilege to it, which I think is incredibly hetero, sexist. I think, um, every person in the world should be an ally. I don't think the word ally needs to signify anything special. So personally, I think that I I don't want to [00:04:30] live in the in the world in a world where the majority gets to decide how the minority live. And I don't want to live in a world that marginalises people based on who they love. So that's why we that's why we do what we do. Where does that drive come from? For you, Um for me, I think. Ok, well, I mean, I back in in high school, I had a I had a few friends who, uh, eventually sort of, um, came out to me, um, one in terms of his sexual identity [00:05:00] and, uh, one in terms of her gender identity and both people, uh, I could see personally, went through a lot. Um, but the the real kind of impetus, I suppose, was in at the beginning of 2009, I went to the you put on in Wellington, and it became clear to me then, um, I actually went to a very liberal high school. Uh, you know, back when you were a year nine. No, no, school is liberal liberal enough for you, but in national terms, I went to a pretty liberal place. [00:05:30] Um, and I'm not I won't say that. Um, homophobia and transphobia didn't exist. Of course they existed. But the kind of stories I heard at that in in Wellington with people from all around New Zealand were utterly heartbreaking. Um, and at one moment, uh, I was kind of like in this position where I could look into everyone's eyes at once. I was, you know, in in front, kind of addressing the crowd. And I looked into the eyes of this one, suspended gay couple who were obviously And you know beautifully in love. [00:06:00] And I had a weird sort of, um, internal transformation because it was at once the most beautiful and the most sad thing I'd ever seen in my life because it was beautiful, because obviously, you know, that this couple were in love and it was wonderful, and it was unmistakable of that. Like any couple, you can kind of tell. Um and that was my first reaction. My second reaction was, this is the first time I've seen this. Why is that? And, you know, the answer came to me. Um, [00:06:30] I guess you know, um, I can't think of any matter of cliche. Has to say to say how this came to me, but it was It was This is being suppressed. This is people. People are afraid to show this, and it was terrifying. It was tragic because you know it. It seems trite to say there isn't enough love in the world. But any couple and any any people that are truly in love should not be forced to hide that ever and the fact that people are not only forced to hide it, but also, you know, if they don't hide [00:07:00] it, um, receive terrible sanctions. Disgusted me and yeah, I guess that's the drive for me is to make sure that, uh, people like that couple I saw and, you know, in the front row can be as public as they want to, just like the rest of us going back to, uh, 2011. And I was at the Asia Pacific Art Games Human rights conference and there wasn't a huge amount of talk about marriage [00:07:30] equality. And I'm just wondering, How did you rev up the the communities to to actually get in behind this? You know that that's a good question. Like I think, like I've said, the real impetus in New Zealand was external. I think it was it was Barack Obama saying this is actually a possibility. That said, um, the who that I've been to There has been a lot of people that said, You know, I do want to get married, and this is incredibly important to me. Um, it's possible [00:08:00] that maybe it wasn't envisioned as something that that, you know, um could happen this this close after civil unions. Maybe it needed to to wait a little longer for that memory to to fade. Um, but I think that that's been proven to be false. And I think that, yeah, now it's It's become clear that, um, you know, the modern era is a time for marriage equality across the world, including New Zealand, um, regardless of of our status with civil unions. And I think it's high time for that. Um, and in terms of revving [00:08:30] up rev people up for for marriage, I think it's split between people who see it as a civil human rights issue and who, you know passionately believe that law should be equal and also those who are driven, Um, basically by their their passion for fighting transphobia and homophobia and who see the obvious link between an incredibly unequal law and the message that that sends to 14 year old boys and girls and everything in between and high schools coming out and the government saying, Um [00:09:00] basically that the the bullying you're experiencing now is going to be replicated in adulthood by unequal laws. And I think that, you know, personally that that is one of the worst parts of have not having marriage. Equality is the message that that sends to to young people that there is law change. But there are other ways of changing people's behaviour and thought patterns. Do Do you have any thoughts about what are other things that we can all do to to make it a better place? [00:09:30] OK, I think I mean, I guess the most obvious response, um, is at the moment there's there's a tendency to use, um, the word gay as a pejorative term. And I think that's one of the first things that we can try and get rid of. I know that, um, my high school in college and and some classes has, um you used to have swear jars. Now people have to, you know, give a contribution if they use the word gay as an insult, which I think you know, is quite a clever way of dealing with the problem. But yeah, I think [00:10:00] AAA part from law change. It is really just I mean, the answer is simpler than a lot of us, kid to realise it's every time we encounter an incidence of homophobia or transphobia, and even if it's not intended, especially if it's not intended, actually, um, basically catching the person out and saying, You know, we we're not saying you're a terrible person, but that behaviour you just demonstrated is not good and not acceptable. And please stop, and I think it it seems pity, and it seems [00:10:30] like it's not a It's not a huge response, but it actually is. And if if everyone started doing that and if everyone, you know, actively show actively kind of showed that they were not, um, accepting of hoop homophobia and transphobia, I think the bigots would actually the true bigots, not the ones who who demonstrate this behaviour, but the ones who are actually proud of it. Um would realise what a small minority they are. I think a lot of us are implicit allies, um, of homophobia and transphobia without even realising it. Um, [00:11:00] even if even if you don't sort of casually and unthinkingly use the word gay, um, I would assume that a lot of us stand by while that happens. So sort of not standing by is, I think, the the biggest thing that most of us can do, um, and just practising equality and practising that acceptance in our day to day lives actively. Instead of passively, but doesn't that really put yourself in the firing line for a lot of a lot of crap? It can do, um, And [00:11:30] understand that I'm not for one second saying that everyone has an obligation to as a straight person, I don't have to worry about constantly defending myself from homophobic and transphobic attacks. Um, it seems to me that that if if we with our you know, cis gendered and heteros privilege, um, because that's what it is, it's it's and and Hege don't have the courage to kind of take some of that. [00:12:00] And not in every case, Not when you know that the the retaliation is going to be violent. But if we if we don't have the courage to sort of stand up for that, um then how can we really expect, like our our friends and our allies and our brothers and sisters to do the same? And it it's it's sort of as as heterosexuals and as as suspended people, there's only so much we can do. But that's something we can do. And I think we have an obligation to do that, really like the way I see it, the way I see it, I would like to jump into my friends' [00:12:30] heads sometimes and, you know, fight their personal battles for them because that's what friends do. They they defend each other. But you can't, um you can't sort of jump into their heads and help fight their depression and help fight the homophobia internally. So I think the reaction is, if you can't do it internally, you have to actually do it externally. You have to go out and not maybe not seek out people who are homophobic or, you know, knowingly or unknowingly homophobic. [00:13:00] But at least like dealing with it when it happens. And I'm not saying that I've done that every time. And I don't think there's anyone who really does. Um, because there are There are circumstances in which you think, you know, maybe this isn't wise. Maybe, you know, this is this is actually would be dangerous to me. And I'm not for a second encouraging people to put themselves in harm's way. But I think that, um, fearing sort of some sort of social rejection for standing up for your friends. Um, I don't know. I think I think people would [00:13:30] actually be surprised, to be honest, if, like, it's incredibly uncomfortable to to put yourself in that position. And, you know, there are some people who, um, would be, like, physically unable to put themselves in that position. Um, people with social anxiety, Um, and and you know, anything else and, you know, that's not for a second kind of condemning that. But people who feel themselves able to, I think, should yeah. Do you think your sense of social justice came prior to going into law? [00:14:00] Or was it something that happened after going into studying law? Um, this This happened before. I think it was actually the other way around. Um, I think I went in and, well, every law student says this, I suppose. And I guess it's pretty arrogant to kind of say it, but I think law, at least in part, was out of a desire to enact change. But again, like I say, most students most law, I mean, most law students go into it wanting to make change and going out, wanting to just make money. So we you know, we'll see ask me again in two years, but yeah. So [00:14:30] where to now? for you. You're you're studying the law at the moment. Where Where do you think that will lead you? Well, I'm I'm not entirely sure, I guess just from a pragmatic perspective, Um, as well as as being involved in campaigns. I do want something that will give me a steady income in life. Um, but I also think that law can be used for good. And I think the ideal situation would be to join with a sort of social group that stuck up for people in unfortunate [00:15:00] legal situations. Um, and gave sort of advice to them. Like, I know this is just a hypothetical, but I know as as a high schooler, um, I had absolutely zero information about what my rights were or what? You know, My obligations were for that matter, Um, and I would have really appreciated, um, not not necessarily a lawyer so that I could sue my high school. I liked my high school, um, but it it occurred to me sometimes, you know, I don't know what my rights are. I like I. I know what I think my rights are, but [00:15:30] I don't really know precisely what I'm entitled to do? Um, and I think a lot of like a response to that, because I think it's it's more than it's more people than me that just they just think that, um uh, there are two kind of responses to as a student, not knowing your rights. The first is to kind of bow down and go Oh, well, you know it's not worth it. And the second one is to just openly and, um, you know, aggressively Rebel, which I'm not going to comment on whether I did or not, but it it's sort of like if you know exactly what you're entitled to, but also know exactly [00:16:00] like what your what your obligations are like. If you know your rights and responsibilities. I think you can make change in a more effective way, and you can deal respectfully with school boards and you can deal effectively with with school boards because you know where you stand. And you know, I'm not saying that will end in a lawsuit, but I am saying that if both parties are kind of dealing with each other on equal terms, it will possibly lead to a really good outcome. So, yeah, in terms of, uh, of, uh I [00:16:30] don't know how else to really address where to. I don't have a 10 year plan. Um, my plan at the moment is to, um, fight for this bill, get it through parliament and then party for 10 weeks. If you had something to say to, uh, students going through high school now that maybe, um, don't have the support networks that you know are in larger centres or in in schools that aren't necessarily as as friendly. Um, what would that be? All right, there's a group called QS a network [00:17:00] which is sitting up in Wellington and has already had one national hobby. Seek them out. Um, and this is, um this is mainly for, um, you know, quest alliances within high schools. But even if you you want to set up your own of, um, just student support network, regardless of whether it's it's queer, friendly or not, seek advice from them, but especially if you're if you're trying to start a QS a or even if you're not trying to start a QS. A. Even if you just want support personally, seek this group out because they do a lot of good. Um, they, [00:17:30] you know, the the group started this year, but the people responsible for organising it transformed my life personally, and I know that they have the power to do that to anyone.

IRN: 695
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/marriage_equality_conference_participant_reaction.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004088
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089382
TITLE: Participant Reaction - Marriage Equality Conference
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Andrew Cunningham; Bill Logan; Cameron Hoskins; Chris Coker; David Do; Elysia Carroll; Ian Anderson; Jim Whitman; Joseph Habgood; Kay Jones; Merv Ransom; Rawa Karetai; Rosie Jimson-Healey; Sam Humphrey; Sara Fraser; Shelley Te Waiariki Howard; Tabby Besley
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Andrew Cunningham; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bill Logan; Cameron Hoskins; Chris Coker; David Do; Elysia Carroll; Human Rights Act (1993); Ian Anderson; Ian McKellen; InsideOUT Kōaro; Jim Whitman; Joseph Habgood; Katherine O'Regan; Kay Jones; LegaliseLove; LegaliseLove (Wellington); Marriage Equality Conference (2012); Merv Ransom; Nigel Studdart; Pacific; Rawa Karetai; Rosie Jimson-Healey; Sam Humphrey; Sara Fraser; Shelley Te Waiariki Howard; Tabby Besley; The Queer Avengers (Wellington); Wellington; activism; civil unions; community; diversity; faith; family; homophobia; homosexual law reform; human rights; lobbying; marriage; marriage equality; school; socialism; television; transgender; transphobia; youth
DATE: 2 December 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Community House/Press Hall, 80 Willis Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast participants reflect on the Marriage Equality Conference held at Community House in Wellington.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, my name is Sara from Queer Avengers. I think the conference, um, was really successful. It was nice to see some different faces involved that we haven't seen around and seen before. Um, and I think it's a good step towards what needs to be done beyond the marriage bill and looking at the issues that we need to keep addressing in our wider communities. Yeah, thanks. I'm, uh I'm an Anderson. I'm a queer Avenger and a socialist. And, um, yeah, I really [00:00:30] enjoyed the conference. It was exhausting. But there was a lot of sort of productive discussion we had. I think on the opening night it was good to have the big public event. Have Ian McAllen sort of greet us and get sort of get that across and also have that actually, that apology from from mckinnon that the the human rights reform didn't didn't include, um, didn't include trans folk. And so that's that was sort of an indicator of the struggles that we really need to take up. So we were trying to get into some of those discussions over the weekend. Um, so I think Saturday Saturday [00:01:00] was a great discussion. We um we covered quite a lot of ground. And, you know, I think it's worth people looking into that. We'll have records of it, um, you know, audio records and some written records. Um, and I don't think I can sum that all up here, but, um, so yeah, And Sunday Sunday, which we've just concluded was was definitely was definitely good. Um, but yeah, I think it's mainly The thing is, what do we do next? And if we on the on the I think quite likely chance that we win this particular reform. Uh, what are we laying a basis for in the long term? You know what? What struggles [00:01:30] are coming up? That's kind of the key question for us in Queer Avengers, so yeah, thanks. Uh, cheers. Um, she Howard, I'm a queer Avenger, and I guess summarise as a humanitarian. At least I like to think of myself as such. Um, I found, uh, the opening of this conference, uh, to be quite inspiring. Um, the history that we've been through, uh, to get to where we are. [00:02:00] Um, as I mentioned is indicative of the struggles that we do have ahead and, uh, in that regard. I think there was some, uh, certainly wide reaching discussion throughout the, um throughout the conference, at least from the Career Avengers stream to with which I was mostly associated. Um, I guess if I was to say that there was a disappointment, um, it might might be that, uh, we [00:02:30] have a long way to go yet before we develop a, um a strategic view on what we achieve. We seem to be dealing with isolated pockets of ideas and issues, and there are numerous of those and, uh, I think for these organisations to continue to be are effective in the long term, we need a leadership that does have a strategic outlook that does have a strategic overview and looks at a multi layered approach to dealing [00:03:00] with those including the involvement of other associated groups of all natures and all types. The involvement of Nigel and Studdard and our discussions is indicative very much of how that can happen and that this is not the struggles that we're on is not a uniquely queer campaign. It's a campaign for the human humanising, um, New Zealand Society and hopefully through that, um, the global [00:03:30] my name's Kay Jones. I'm Wellington born, and I've been campaigning on human rights issues probably since I was about nine years old, off and on. And I found this conference really, um, enlivening. But it's midway through a process. It's a lot of people who've travelled along way to get here in terms of their own struggles for human rights. And there's achieving marriage. Equality is just one sort of step along the way. What I appreciated in the conference was the open discussion and engaging with some people [00:04:00] that I've met online before. What I thought we could have had more of was that individual story sharing and the personal connections that we didn't start each session with names and where we were from within two days with so many people, that was probably, you know, would have been an unrealistic thing to do. Um, but I look forward to next steps, and I think back to when my uncle was growing up, who never came out and sort of, you know, who died alone and my cousin who, um, came out but went to Australia for a better life. And now [00:04:30] that the world that we're living in where we see queer people on television every day where people are actually openly discussing these. And I'm really sort of positive about those things. But we've still got to save the planet. We've still got to do everything else. So, you know, it's really good to be part of this. Thank you. Ok, well, my name is Joseph. He I'm the communications officer for Legalised Love Wellington. And I thought it was a really awesome conference. I think it was really healthy to have those discussions, Obviously. You know, there was a lot of disagreement, but I think that's actually an incredibly positive thing. And it really you know, it was a great experience [00:05:00] to finally have this discussion, I think, um because I think getting everyone in one room to talk about things is the first step. And, yeah, I think it's been a long time coming, but, you know, the discussions were really, really fantastic. And I think everyone got a light light out of it, so yeah. Hi. I'm Jim Whitman, and I came here, um, on my own, though I might have actually found in the process. I've joined another group, and, uh uh, yeah, I enjoyed a lot, actually. I caught up with a whole bunch of stuff and, [00:05:30] um, caught up with, um um a bunch of young people as well that this kind of this campaign has This campaign may well have drawn more young people in possibly, um, which is wonderful. Really? Because I think you take you have to catch up, um, with young people, really? And sort of work with them. I let them take the lead, Actually, truly, um, I mean, that's really important. And I've seen a lot of [00:06:00] that, actually. A lot of very enterprising aware, very sensitive young people from different campaigns across New Zealand all related to similar causes. And, um, it's very heartening. Oh, I'm David. Do I am a young gay Asian male based in Wellington. Now, uh, and I've been involved with helping organise the conference and been going on to some of the [00:06:30] community meetings, and I'm really pleased of how it went. It was really good to get people together and, um really good to good, to have not just a discussion of other ideas associated with marriage equality, but also what we're gonna do next. Um, so I was really pleased with how it went. And I definitely enjoyed a lot of the discussions, especially, um, issues such as transgendered, um, issues. And also, um, just make sure we reach out into other parts of the community faith [00:07:00] and also Pacifica and Maori communities especially, um, So I was really heartened that, you know, a lot of people came together and we had a good civil dialogue. Um I mean, the other thing also, is that because I was involved with the civil unions campaign as a volunteer and I was only in my my second year at uni in, 04. And, you know, I don't think people really talked about marriage equality. Back then. It wasn't really on the agenda. So it is really nice that it's come back again as an issue. [00:07:30] Um, and really pleased that this conference has been a part of that. Um, my name's Sam Humphrey. Um, I've never really been, although I'm openly gay, and I've always supported gay rights movements and things like that. I've never actually participated in a public sort of campaign before. So this was my first real experience of that. Um, but yeah, it was just great to meet people from all sorts of different backgrounds and hear their views on issues especially, um, issues like, um, the the Faith Forum yesterday with with Margaret was [00:08:00] really interesting, um, talking to a whole range of different people that I wouldn't normally encounter in my sort of day to day office job. Life was great. So, yeah, that was it. Hi. Um, I'm Cameron Hoskins from, um, from Christchurch. Um, and, um, this conference for me has been mainly about, um, learning. Basically learning a lot of new skills that I I didn't know really existed before us. Um, such as, you know, um, we didn't actually get to go through [00:08:30] the, um, how to run a community group, which would would have been nice, but, you know, I was there to help me with that. No, um, it's been it's been very informative. Um, I've learned a lot that I didn't know about beforehand about specific things such as, um, how to deal with media, um, lobbying MP S. And how to go about that The correct way rather than, um making them angry, um, doing things at the right times. No, it's, um it's been for me. It's been more informative and informative [00:09:00] thing more than anything else. And that's led me on to fortunately, um, one pathway in which I can actually give back to the community for once. So yeah, that's that's it for me. Hey, I'm Tay from love. Wellington and the network. Um, the conference has been really great. I think it's been really, um, good for bringing lots of different people. Um, together, Um, and we've had lots of diverse conversations. Um, I guess we've kind of scratched the surface [00:09:30] on a lot of things and entered the start of a lot of topics. But there's a lot more, um, discussion to be had on them. Um, I was really excited the conference that the conference was able to look beyond just marriage equality and to look, um, at homophobia and transphobia. Especially things in schools. Um, so, yeah, I've had a really good time. I'm I'm treasurer for legalised love. Wellington. And I thought the conference was overall fantastic. It was very inspiring for me. [00:10:00] I had got it in a few ideas from it, especially the night at Parliament on Friday and the Saturday day time. Uh, my name's Andrew Cunningham. I'm from the Campaign for Marriage Equality and for the conference. I was in charge of logistics and volunteer management along with Merv Ransom. What I took away from the conference is that there is a distinct need for intergroup cooperation and communication seeing us through to the end of the campaign whip. [00:10:30] What was also seen was an immense amount of ideas that came between each other, generally focusing on improving the quality for LGBT people in New Zealand. Uh, some of these focuses included um Taku struggles, trans struggles and also looking at why marriage equality is such a desire, desirable aspect for New Zealanders, [00:11:00] particularly focusing around youth. The thing that I really took away from it is that we need to have continued discussions. But overall marriage quality is a very desirable thing in New Zealand, and that's going to greatly benefit our community and our loved ones. So, me ransom I was overseeing the volunteers for the campaign. Um, it took a lot of energy to get the actual conference to a place where everyone, um, agreed upon. Um, [00:11:30] I'm quite content with the conversations that that come out of it Now, of course, it's all about implementing those action points. Now he's talking about, and we don't do anything with it as, um things progress. There's obviously some things that we need to sort out internally, so that what we do desire, uh, will manifest. But I am optimistic. Well, Bill Logan's my name and, uh, yeah, I've enjoyed the conference. It's It took a lot of work to get [00:12:00] together. A lot of work from a lot of people, Uh, but, um, it's been well worthwhile. It's been useful in and of itself as an exercise as part of the Marriage Equality Campaign. But it's also been good in building community and in preparing ways for the future, for campaigns that might be about anything else and other community building activities. My name's Chris Coker, and the conference just [00:12:30] exposed me to a lot of points of view, a lot of different points of view, something I hadn't considered before, And I'd come here hoping to go away with some uh, practical action steps that we could take to further the campaign, which I think we have done, and also the complexity of bringing uh, disparate groups together and working together and what that involves. It's more complex [00:13:00] than what I might have thought, but a very interesting process nonetheless, Kilda. I'm Rosie Jimson Healy. I found the conference really exciting. I thought it was really wonderful that we're beginning to have conversations, Um, about our trans community and our intersex people, um, and involving Pacifica, and and, um, the wider discussion around, um, our goals as a queer community, um, and the wider issues [00:13:30] not just marriage equality, but, um, the things behind marriage, equality and the things such as homophobia that we're all kind of looking to, um, to affect with this kind of political and social change. Um, so I found it really exciting opportunity for us all to be together. Um, and it felt like quite a historic moment. Being able to, um, talk together about where we're going with this bill and just take a moment to acknowledge our our history and who's got us here. Um, [00:14:00] with the work that's been done in the past with the homosexual law reform bill. Um, yeah. It was really exciting to see a diversity of people. Um, and different genders. Um, yeah, I really enjoyed it. So we're at the end of the conference after 2. 5 days. Um, what are your thoughts? It's been brilliant, actually. Great to have a conversation. Great. To have everybody here and great to see, um, good fresh faces. Ready to go beyond and [00:14:30] do something about marriage, equality and queer politics in general. And, um, great to have so many new networks. Yeah. Is it what you thought it would be? More? It was definitely more than what I thought it would be. Um, we've had deeper discussions about other areas that wasn't quite on the agenda, but we had room for that. So we kind of predicted that we might, but we weren't really too sure, but, uh, the level of engagement has really stunned me. Um, the amount of people [00:15:00] who are willing to have open frank discussions or ask questions or, you know, the people that did turn up to the keynotes asked an amazing story. You know, questions and stories were told. And there's something to really reflect on any highlights for you, Nigel Studdard standing ovation. Um, French press. Um, the key note on Welcome for Ian. That was awesome. And, um new friends too [00:15:30] many times, I suppose. Yeah, but that would be my summary. Is there anything that you would like to say to people listening to this? Um that maybe couldn't attend the conference? Um, I suppose. Really Try to find like minded people out there, get involved, um, and find out what it is that we are doing. Um, try to make a difference in your community, because you do matter. You do count, and you can have your voice heard. [00:16:00] Um, it's all about it. All it is is organising yourself and, um, doing something about it. Don't sit on the couch, get up and do something. President Obama.

IRN: 694
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/marriage_equality_conference_report_back.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004087
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089381
TITLE: Report Back - Marriage Equality Conference
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ian Anderson; Rawa Karetai; William Leith
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; BDSM; Box Oceania; Community Law (Wellington); Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM); Gay Liberation Front; HIV / AIDS; Human Rights Act (1993); Ian Anderson; Kevin Hague; LegaliseLove; LegaliseLove (Wellington); Margaret Mayman; Marriage Equality Conference (2012); Ottawa Charter for Health Promotion (1986); Pacific; Rawa Karetai; Stonewall riots (1969); The Queer Avengers (Wellington); Wellington; William Leith; adoption; alcohol and drug abuse; campaigns; church; disability; discrimination; diversity; fa'afafine; gay liberation movement; health; history; homelessness; homophobia; human rights; immigration; language; law; marriage; marriage equality; media; mental health; normalisation; polyamory; relationships; religion; school; suicide; surgery; takatāpui; transgender; transition; transphobia; youth
DATE: 2 December 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Community House/Press Hall, 80 Willis Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast conference Chair Rawa Karetai invites the two conference streams to report back on their sessions at the end of the Marriage Equality Conference held mainly at Community House in Wellington. We would like to acknowledge William Leith who features in this recording and who passed away on 2 April 2014.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um, the session is really a summary session. Um, a report back from each of the streams. Um, so we've got a report back from Ian from Queer Avengers and also from William, who will do, uh, the legalised love stream. Uh, we'll have a look at the quick look at the action points, and also, uh, the white board, You know, the the different tasks that some of the the major tasks that some of the different groups are going to be doing over the next, um, 3 to [00:00:30] 6 months, and then we'll, uh, say a few. Thank you. And, um, feel well until next time so I'll start off and hand over to Ian, who's going to quickly talk about, um, the Queer Avengers Stream and give us a detailed report, I suppose, on the first half. And could you you You wrote some notes on the second half? Do you want to report back on that? Yeah. So, um, so, Yeah, just be, um the the first two sessions were [00:01:00] a trans forum and a Pacifica forum. Uh, the, uh the Trans forum was, uh was, uh it started with, um, Sally presenting on, um uh particularly on, um, uh, the su suicidality and that, um and, um yeah, suicidality among marginalised groups in general, Um, and then sort of moving into, um, good ways to address that. So, for example, um, where, [00:01:30] Um, uh, surgery has been made much more freely available. It's had a huge impact on suicidality. So So discussing some of the basic things where if the concerns are addressed if, um, like, uh, again as Joseph mentioned, if surgery isn't seen as just an elective thing for a very small, uh, group who have the money, uh, that that actually has a huge impact on, um, on that. So, um, And then, uh, Chase talked about experiences in high school and, uh, having relatively [00:02:00] ok experiences. But, um uh, especially compared to other people who have been kicked out of home and all this, but, um, that, um, still having issues with the lack of education and constantly being faced with questions kind of thing. So So, yeah, we also talked about the need for education. Um um and yeah. So I think those are both big things to return to, Like, um, I think, yeah, the, um, expansion of, uh, consistent across, uh, across the board health care for trans people and [00:02:30] then also education on on gender and sexuality. So, um, and then, yeah, we ran through some of the crow schools demands along those lines. Um, yeah. And other people can possibly comment on that. I might not summarise it perfectly. Um, and then we did the, uh, Pacifica forum. Uh, which was, um uh, from, uh, she's from box events, which is, um, sort of queer woman of colour group. Except she was there pretty much as an individual. Um, just speaking [00:03:00] on, uh, some of the problems of, um uh, the the the phrase was beyond queer liberation, and so, sort of that, um, a lot of articulations of queerness are in sort of in a colonised space. And at the same time, colonisation is what's eroded. Um uh, previous forms such as, um and so the the thing of articulating something that deals with those sorts of different strands, Um uh, and [00:03:30] takes up both spaces similar to how is an integration of those things? Um, yeah, and I possibly, uh, could speak to that better, but she's not here. Um, so yeah, that's something we're going to revisit and keep having dialogue on. So that was the first half? Um Yep. OK, so the first afternoon one was, um, a talk about gay liberation movement that was done by Ian, um, which started talking about the Stonewall riots [00:04:00] in the US. And that was, um when a group of game. Well, the police raided this bar where, um, Gambian and Trans people hung out, I think mostly Gambian and transsexual women. Um, and one time they decided to fight back. And, um, these were actually people who have been active in other new left movements and, um, sort of like against racial segregation and, uh, get [00:04:30] the war in their arms and fighting for women's rights and so on. And they thought, Well, hey, let's stick up for ourselves as well. So they started fighting back. And, um, yeah, apparently the, um at the time the, um, the most dispossessed gay and trans people were really big and that they were the ones who were most passionate about fighting back. Yeah, strangely enough, um, it actually it was maybe the the ones who were least dispossessed, who actually [00:05:00] got the most boost in their rights from it. And yeah, uh, they formed this group called the Gay Liberation Front, which then split into a gay activist alliance and a, um, street transaction revolutionary group. And because they sort of, um, it's like they they are different ideas of what to focus on. And the gay group was successful in, um, getting, uh, so it was no longer considered, [00:05:30] um, a mental illness to be gay. And so, yeah, it was interesting that you got that sort of split. And then, yeah, the gay group, which was perhaps the more mainstream one they got what they wanted. The trance group kind of didn't really. And so this kind of posed the question of how do we be together in a a unitary that is emancipatory rather than sort of press it by sort of saying you conform to this so that we can be together and yeah, we learnt about [00:06:00] how the, um how The gay rights activists, um, had alliances with various people, including the, um, like to truck drivers union in San Francisco, which I found surprising. I mean, stereotypically, um, this was a gay man being allied with the truck drivers. I would have thought, You know, maybe some of the female truck drivers might have been in favour of gay rights. But you don't stereotypically think of the male truck drivers as [00:06:30] feeling that way. Well, that was mediated by Harvey Milk doing sort of the the community work with both groups. And, um, so we started discussing. We talked a bit about New Zealand also, but then we started discussing What does this tell us about our campaigns now? And, um, one point that Bill made was that there was this clear division between [00:07:00] the, um with the division between the more mainstream. And the more sort of off to the side thing was actually, um, matched by the, um, architectural context of this conference with the maybe the more mainstream group meeting in this room and the after the side and network. And, um so but we worked out that, um that actually they been thinking [00:07:30] both in a way, had been important to moving forward. And, um, another thing we learned was that, um a lot of these groups that popped up in the sixties and seventies and so on, they were sort of it was sort of like a new way of people standing up and saying these things publicly and getting in the public eye. But they weren't the first movement saying these things that you can actually look back decades and find academics writing these [00:08:00] things and people having these discussions. And so what changed was the sort of public the making it public site. And, um, yeah, somebody commented that actually gay people who want to get married and maybe not the most depressed people in the queer community and that, uh, there's a concern that maybe shifting same sex marriage that maybe the same sex marriage campaign might be shifting [00:08:30] marriage from the same sex marriage from being in the category of abnormal stuff to being in the category of normal stuff while not actually changing anything about the fact of there being these two categories. And, um so there was sort of this tension, I think, also between, um, but sometimes you can draw the more controversial stuff and get the less controversial stuff [00:09:00] through. And you might think, Oh, that's a good deal because at least we got something through. Otherwise we weren't going to get anything but on the other hand there was. Well, then, once you've got the more popular bit through, maybe you lose the impetus to campaign so that that actually stops the other bit getting through. So not sure where that leads to as to how you should work. Then we took We had the [00:09:30] beyond Marriage forum With where, um this was basically talking about this concept. What Bill suggested? Um, what if we abolish marriage as an institution and, you know, people could just do what they want, but not be. You know, they could live like they're married if they want to, but not be influenced by this being sort of an institution that have certain advantages and [00:10:00] so on. And, uh, and talked about, um, free love, which didn't necessarily mean a sort of hippie style, uh, having like lots of sex or, um, free of emotional connection or anything. But what it meant was love. That is free from, um I guess free from expectations as to [00:10:30] what is the right sort of life or the right sort of sex life, so that you're free to find what is the best thought for you. And, um, she said this. She said that we live in a sex negative culture, she then clarified, was a sex negative culture that's disguised as a sex positive culture by which meant that we have this sort of media and advertising in our culture. The sort of promoting sex is a good thing, [00:11:00] but then promoting it, along with youth and conventional ideas of beauty and physical perfection, as if to maybe sort of imply that, um that without that it's not a good thing. And, um, that sends, you know, messages that people's own love, life or sex life maybe isn't good enough. And so the idea of free love would include being free from that. And, um, yeah, she talk about [00:11:30] So she wasn't I mean, she was into the idea of, um, you know, polygamy and polyamory and sharing sexual and emotional partners if if that's what you want. I mean, it wasn't about necessarily doing that, but it definitely included the freedom for people to choose that if that's what seems to suit them. And, uh, what's your name? Sorry. What's [00:12:00] your name? Shelley mentioned some examples mentioned that in the B DS M community, they have this this sort of negotiation system for how, um where people negotiate, what they can get from one relationship and sort of say, Oh, and if you need more from a relationship than this, I recognise that you might get that other thing from another relationship, so that might be part of it. And, uh, Bill [00:12:30] then sort of ended this by saying, Well, and this wasn't really a disagreement, but just an extinction and tying back to what he said at the beginning. You can't argue for free love. Instead, you have to argue against various things that are barriers to freedom and love. And you got a list of, um, books for further reading that, um, that you can get from me if you're interested in this. There's some about sort of political stuff [00:13:00] about free life. Some about, um, sort of interpersonal relationship issues in free. Then the third one was the diversity for, um So, uh, we first talked about queer relationships and, uh, disability and, um mentioned, you know, think about how disabled people, whether they're straight or queer, might [00:13:30] find it harder to leave a relationship. Um, but disabled people specifically disabled queer people might be affected. Also by homophobia by their carers or family who are caring for them. Um, and yeah, that under immigration law, Um, because there is discrimination or New Zealand immigration law that isn't really about, you know, same sex versus [00:14:00] sex relationships. But there is on the grounds of disability. So, um, you might find that, um, so that if if you're in love with somebody from a different country who is of the same sex as you and they have a disability and maybe they can't come here. So you have to go there to their country where, um maybe you can't actually get in on where? Maybe your relationship isn't recognised as it would be in New Zealand. [00:14:30] And yeah, there was also this idea that, um that there might be more pressure to sort of prove your normality in terms of sexuality. If you've got a disability and therefore perceived as abnormal in that respect that it's maybe easier to sort of be different. Be openly abnormal in a way, in one respect, if you're clearly normal in another, [00:15:00] and then we got on to, uh, trends issues as the middle of the second of the three parts of this uh, diversity thing. Uh, so we discussed this marriage equality an issue for trans people. So, Brooklyn, who is presenting that? It is, um, partly. Well, it can be because you can be trans and, um, homosexual as well. [00:15:30] But it can also be, uh it's also, um because the legal definition of what sex somebody is can be a bit messed up for transsexual people and can change over time. And so, like, uh, in New Zealand at the moment, if you have particular irreversible transsexual surgery or medical treatment, you, um you go from [00:16:00] being the opposite sex of your legal partner to being same sex with your legal partner. Then your marriage is annulled because I'm not sure whether it's annulled or if it's E value weight. But if it is, it ceases to be legally valid. So, um so yeah, that's it's because of the sort of confusion around legal legal definition of sex and change, and legal definition of sex makes a special transsexual [00:16:30] angle on removing gender from, um Well, sorry. I'm removing the role that you have to be a man and a woman to be married and also talked about this idea of trans women being hyper sexualized in some people's imaginations. Uh, which apparently, um, means that, um, make marriage difficult to because it leads to the sort [00:17:00] of idea that you're not gonna, um, be wanted that nobody would want to marry you. And, um so this means that, uh, well, there are some cases of, um, transwomen being married to regular sexual men. There were also, uh, a lot, but just as many Trans women being married to trans men or being in lesbian type relationships, uh, and [00:17:30] that that means suggest, actually, considering there were way more men that trans men, that actually that there is that those relationships with men are difficult to form. And then there's discrimination against trans men being, uh, sometimes physically beaten up by lesbians who saw them as traitors to the a radical lesbian sephra cause or something wouldn't know. I'm not often in this course. I don't think they'd let [00:18:00] me in, um, discriminate. And then, yeah, there's discrimination against trans people, which is not explicitly prohibited. It's It's kind of a weird one because there's a legal opinion that it is implied under sexual discrimination in the Human Rights Act. now, but the fact that it's not actually explicitly stated means it's kind of it's hard to know really whether you would actually [00:18:30] get protection. And um also mentioned that trans women have a high rate of mental and neurological disability, which, um well, I'm sure has negative effects. It also had positive effects in terms of developing relationships between the trans community and the community of other people with those conditions which has meant that at least those two [00:19:00] communities accept each other. Then thirdly, we talked about that or basically Maori queer identity, where Gareth said that basically the written Maori history is heterosexual Maori men's history. And this has meant that, um, there's like 300 year old stories of which, um have only been written down [00:19:30] in the last 20 years or so. And a lot of members of the Maori establishment sort of frown on these stories and kind of don't really accept them as part of their inheritance, but uh, stories that have always been passed down through Maori people. And part of this was due to also missionaries who came along and burnt all these carvings, which suggested, um, same sex relationships and uh, there was a point that have [00:20:00] actually been back in the campaign for reviving the Maori language. So, um, so that's quite a good sort of, I guess. Alliance there between the campaign for Maori language and the and, um yeah, some of the This whole thing of the missionaries is destroying the, um, the evidence of the relationships that lead to some people like, um, John Tahiri and Brian [00:20:30] mentioned as Maori people who thought that those traditions didn't exist because they hadn't been passed down to them. And finally, I got this interesting comment from Brooklyn who said that she thought that, um, we should see all forms of oppression is basically this one sort of oppression thing that's divided into these different forms and that therefore, [00:21:00] if you get somebody who's part of one group, where they're the oppressed and the other another group where they are sort of the oppressor, that that's actually a sort of divide and rule thing, pitting them against each other, which is also sort of part of what she sees as this big conflicts of oppression. Thank you. So I'm gonna keep this, uh, quicker because [00:21:30] I'm aware of the time. Um so to start off the legalised love stream yesterday we had Conrad Ray, um, who's leading a lot of the media work around the campaign and a lot of the lobbying talk to us. Um, so we started with a quick overview of the process that's happened so far. And what we've still got to go, Um, as far as 2nd and 3rd reading and when our lobbying, um, is going to be most effective? Um, the people we were encouraged to target are the 80 voting [00:22:00] in favour at the moment and keeping those those people yeses, Um, and that that is, is going to be the most effective strategy for us. Um, we talked about how we need to tailor our messages to those people. Um, so that the right people are lobbying different MP S, um, and lobbying them in the right way. Um, depending on their party affiliations, Um, and how liberal they are. We talked about speaking to the heart as being more effective [00:22:30] than speaking to the head. So as many logical reasons we have for marriage equality, um, to be passed they are should probably be secondary to the emotional stories Um and we talked about some of the risks which you can read about in the notes. Um, after that, we had Doctor Elsbeth Tilley from Massey University and who gave a really good, um, some really good advice around media. It's basically the way she put it is that the people we want to reach and not the media themselves, [00:23:00] but the end audiences of those publications, and we need to think about those audiences. But obviously the media is the intermediary intermediary, Um, with that. So we need to understand, you know who journalists are. And she talked about how they are predominantly young white women with a tertiary qualification and relatively little experience. And how we need to, um, bring them up to speed on some of the issues, um, so that they can provide effective coverage. We also got into some specifics about some media angles we might take over [00:23:30] the campaign. So, um, one advice was to create competition. And so we looked at, you know, New Zealand becoming one of the first countries in the world. We sort of have a, I suppose, an expectation upon us that we will legalise marriage equality after we were first to give women the vote. Um, and we looked at a lot of other angles, too, that we might, um, push in the media sphere. Um, and more practically, we looked at how we might write a media release, um, and handle issues with the media. Um, then we [00:24:00] heard from Tabby Tom and someone else whose name? I can't remember. Gryphon, um, on quest, straight alliances. And they gave a good overview of of what they're doing, um, in schools and the national network they're creating, um, and hopefully they can grab their slides and they'll be available. Um, for those who weren't in that session, um, we also looked at some questions that came from that, Um, you know, how can we make these groups a true alliance between, um, [00:24:30] queer people and straight people? Um, how we resource those people, But also resource teachers or the other big players in schools. Um, how we handle cultural issues. Um, and we looked at a couple of examples of people doing it right. Like Wellington High School. Um, and another nice point that was mentioned was, you know, the QS a is coming from the bottom up, um, creating these groups. But what can we do at the policy level to philtre down, um, and make [00:25:00] queer straight alliances and and queer issues a priority in our education sector? After that, we had, um a very informative, um, but also thought provoking session from Mary, um, about faith. Um, Margaret? Yeah. So I thought that name was wrong. Um, and I've written it down like that, and she she started off with, I guess an analysis of the key arguments we hear from religious factions and [00:25:30] and sort of broke some of those down for us. But we went further to sort of look at, um, some of the other sort of sideline issues within the whole faith. Um, domain, for example, the missing voice of people who are against gay marriage in a religious sense, but believe that there should be a civil right to marriage. Um, because of the general belief in equality. Um, that's what I was trying to articulate better in the notes. [00:26:00] Um, and also the fact that some churches do support marriage equality, and the current law is currently preventing them from exercising their religious freedom. That's a point case um, brought up a few times, and I really like that. Um we looked at some of the reasons that we have objection And where that comes from, um, and and some strategies to deal with perhaps ignorant people. Um, that we come across, um, then Kevin Hague, [00:26:30] Um, talked to us about marriage, adoption and human rights. And that was a really interesting discussion. We started looking at the international human rights instruments like, um, the UN declaration. Um, and it's sort of sister instruments, um, and how those filtered down to our domestic legislation and the effect that those have had, um, one of the really interesting things from Kevin's, um, session [00:27:00] was sort of the peculiar but compelling argument about the effect that so good social policy has on public health. And we look at the example of HIV A I DS, um you know, and it was found that the people during the epidemic of the eighties, the people who were being infected were typically, um, people with low self esteem, alcohol and drug problems, [00:27:30] poor communication skills, um, and in denial about their sexuality and how solving those problems would have the positive effect on health. Obviously, in that case, HIV infection rates. Um, so we looked at something called the Otway Charter and some principles around developing good human rights policy. Um, and we also looked at the issue of adoption Um, the care of Children Act and the adoption act and where we need to go with that, um, and some [00:28:00] sort of issues beyond the marriage equality campaign. But certainly the issues with that go far beyond, um, adoption of equality, Um, and go into some sort of interesting concepts that, like, adoption and, um, giving legal effect to open adoption, which at the moment is sort of done off the books. Um and yeah, it's right. I concluded. Cool. Thank you, William. Um [00:28:30] Oh, look at this.

IRN: 689
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/marriage_equality_conference_murray_riches.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004086
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089380
TITLE: Murray Riches - Marriage Equality Conference
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Murray Riches
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Community Law (Wellington); Education Review Office (ERO); Green Party; Hero (Auckland); How Do We Make It Better (report); InsideOUT Kōaro; It Gets Better; Jan Logie; Kazam Youth Hui (2011); Kevin Hague; Marriage Equality Conference (2012); Murray Riches; Pahiatua; Pride; Pride (Hamilton); Rainbow Youth; Taumarunui; Waikato; Wellington; Youth'07 survey; activism; alcohol and drug abuse; bullying; church; closeted; coming out; community; gay; gender identity; heteronormativity; homophobia; human rights; interviewing; invisibility; labels; language; marriage; marriage equality; media; mental health; mentor; politics; queer; queer straight alliance (QSA); regions; religion; research; rural; silence; stereotypes; study; suicide; support; visibility; youth
DATE: 2 December 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Community House/Press Hall, 80 Willis Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Murray Riches talks about his research project How Do We Make it Better. MP Jan Logie references the research in the Fighting Homophobia panel discussion. This interview was recorded during the Marriage Equality Conference held at Community House in Wellington.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Mary Riches. I'm a communications student at Waikato University. Just finished my fourth year of a bachelor of communication studies and heading into master's next year, which I'm looking forward to. Where do you come from? I grew up in, which is a small town, Um, near Mount, um, National Park sort of area, um, but currently live in dry because my partner works in Auckland. So it's kind of halfway between Hamilton and Auckland. What was it like growing up in, um [00:00:30] pretty, pretty, isolated. Pretty, um, pretty. You know, um, rural, small town sort of situation, um, Queerness or, you know, gay role models were completely invisible and absent. I think so, Yeah. When did you realise that you may be gay? It's always a really interesting question, because I think in hindsight, when you, um when you look back and think, Oh, well, you kind of actually knew from a long time earlier, but I didn't really acknowledge [00:01:00] it or deal with it at all until I left home at 17 and moved to, of all places, which is not much bigger, but, um but it was a different town, so that was important. and, um, a new new social group and new connections and things. And then I was able to kind of explore my sexuality and things like that. So in Tai, how was gay or queerness seen? Did did you have any, um, idea about gayness or queerness when you were growing up? Um, it was interesting. [00:01:30] Um, we were just talking briefly about the use of the word gay, and I think very much growing up in the only thing I knew about being gay was that it was a horrible, negative kind of dirty thing. And something like you certainly didn't want to be, because the only kind of association I had with that word and that idea was that really negative kind of insult put down sort of thing. So, yeah, so, um, definitely nothing positive to be associated with gayness at all. Were you aware of any queer [00:02:00] people in town? Um, no. I. I wasn't at the time. And, um and it was only it's only looking back now that I realised that I was surrounded by Obviously there were other. I wasn't the only guy in the village, you know. There were heaps of other um, queer people around town, but they were completely invisible and absent. I think to me at the time from, um, from that perspective, then, yeah, looking back, I can see that they were actually there. And I'm [00:02:30] I'm frustrated that they were kind of absent because they would have been really important and, um, helpful role model to me, I think. So. How do you think the town would have handled it if if people were, like, more openly out? Um, I think there would have been a lot of sort of, um, you know, just kind of eye rolling kind of chat about, um you know, that that kind of guy over there sort of, you know, the town [00:03:00] spectacle or whatever. I think, Yeah, I don't know. But in saying that since, um, since coming out and coming and heading back to not living there permanently, but just being back there, I haven't actually encountered that much prejudice. Really? I think, um, yeah, I think sometimes, um, being silent, um, is more silencing than just, you know, if you just come out and you're just out in a town like that, it's actually not that big a deal, But it's just kind of that [00:03:30] kind of, um, kind of structure of silence that keeps people quiet anyway. So, yeah, that makes sense. Did you find growing up that you also had to participate in, um, you know, kind of like gay humour and calling people gay and stuff. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, there's There's sort of a really funny, um, masculine culture which spends a lot of time talking about gayness and joking about gayness and kind of that high school boys thing of, like all the gay jokes and the kind of [00:04:00] gay situations and things And like, um, yeah, it's it's quite quite bizarre that there's, like, a really strong focus on gayness and yeah, but in a really negative sense. I think so. You moved to a new town, and then what happened? Um, so I moved to a new town, Um, which Yeah, like I said, is just another small town. But, um, but just being in a social group, where I was spending time with people who were a lot older than me, um and they [00:04:30] were people that I didn't have already, um, sort of those relationships with. So it was sort of a fresh start, new relationships to be built and that sort of thing. And, um so I was able to sort of engage with them on a different level, and I actually, um, one of my friends introduced me. She kind of had a thought that I might be gay. So she introduced me to, um, an older gay man who lived in the town. And, um, we just became really good friends, and he was sort of like a a massive role model to me, I suppose. And yeah, we just, um, [00:05:00] got on really well. And he Yeah, showed me, um I don't know. You know, um, just introduced me to the idea of, um, you know, being part of gay culture and just yeah, not having to be. I suppose so, Yeah. What was that like, Kind of discovering that kind of other culture. I really loved it. I kind of, um as soon as I found it, I was just kind of in love with it. It was [00:05:30] just so different to anything I'd experienced before, I think. And just Yeah, really, um, kind of liberating and exciting, I think. And, um, kind of homely I don't know. Like, um, Yeah, just kind of discovering it was kind of like, Yeah, I don't know. There's something quite kind of safe and homely about being in gay culture. I kind of found that. Yeah. Kind of fitted in. Is this one of the reasons which prompted you into your your research? [00:06:00] Yeah, I suppose so. Just, um, that awareness that, like, there are lots of people that grow up in small towns like me where, um, queen is silent and absent, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah. And that, um that is a big problem. Yeah, definitely. Tell me about the research project. Yeah, OK, um, so? Well, well, it kind of started by just a conversation with a lecturer of mine who happened to be a gay man as well. Um, we talked about wanting to do [00:06:30] something like this, and he got in touch with Kevin Hague about maybe something that he might be interested in doing. And he said, um, well, he was like, Yeah, wonderful. I've actually been thinking about the same sort of things and the fact that, um, as he put it, that being, uh, an out gay man in New Zealand is is not really that difficult, um, for him and his experience, like it's something that's, um it's much better than it was, you know, 20 years ago. Um, but for young people, it's actually still really challenging. So, [00:07:00] um, so we need to look at how we can make that better. So that's how it kind of started out. And the name, which is kind of kind of sounds a bit clumsy if there's no context to it. Um, how do we make it better? Um, sort of came out of that idea that, um you remember the the, um it gets better project that went around, um, started in America. I think, um and so the idea was, Well, yeah, it does get better for most queer people. But how do we actually make it better now? [00:07:30] Like, how do we change the culture for young people? That it's It's just not so hard because all the statistics and the youth are C statistics and things like that all point to the fact that it's pretty tough for young people to be queer. Yeah, what are the statistics now in terms of things like, um, suicide and and bullying and violence and the UO seven statistics, which are probably the best ones currently in New Zealand, Um suggested that, um, queer youth are I think it's six times more [00:08:00] likely to commit suicide than their heterosexual peers. And, um, things like mental illness and, um, substance abuse and risky sexual behaviour all are a lot higher than their heterosexual peers. And so definitely much higher, um, risk factors for young people. What year did you start? The research, um, started at at the start of 2011? I think so. The start of last year. And what did it involve? It was basically, [00:08:30] Well, it was sort of a It started out as being an academic sort of project. Started out with a literature review type thing, looking at what, um other countries are doing and, um, their experiences of how to improve the situation and things like that, and also the statistics in New Zealand and how, um, queer youth are hearing in New Zealand. But then the major part was really to talk to, um, community activists and, um, community youth workers because we kind of felt that there are a lot of people in New Zealand doing really amazing things [00:09:00] with young people. And, um, like, for example, the QS, a network that's recently been established And, um, in Rainbow Youth. And, um, all these people that are really, um, really doing wonderful things, And it would be really great to talk to them because they are the people that really know what's going on and what we need And to be able to kind of bridge that gap between their kind of grassroots wisdom and, um, sort of policy making and that sort of thing and sort of, um, making those sort of, um, changes at that level as well. [00:09:30] So yeah. So, um, so we, um So the major part was to really to talk to them. So 22 people and just basically interview them and to ask them about, um what? The major problems they thought were facing queer youth and pretty much how we can improve the situation. What? What needs to be done with these face to face interviews? Um, yes. Mostly face to face interviews. Yeah, And was that across the country? Yeah. Yeah, it was, um, people from Auckland, Hamilton, Wellington, [00:10:00] um, Dunedin, Christchurch, and Nelson so tried to get a good spread of the country and also, um, a good spread in terms of age age. Um, And, uh, what people are doing within the community. So, um, talking to like, for example, student activists as well as, um, people who have been involved with the community for a long, long time as well as, um MP and people like that. So, had you ever done a project before where you had gone and talked to such a variety of people? No, never. [00:10:30] No. No. It was It was an amazing experience. Actually. I really, really enjoyed it. Just, um just the chance to talk to people with, like, such wisdom and such passion for what they were doing was Yeah, it's very cool, but no. And had you ever been involved in, um, such a kind of queer project before? No. No, I hadn't, actually, um, something I kind of talk about a little bit in the report. Is this kind of, um, it's what I call it the, um, discourse of silence. Where, [00:11:00] um, there's this idea that, like, good queer people or good gays don't really talk about being gay. That much like it's kind of, um, to be to be a good gay. You kind of, you know, like a good gay And as in, um, sort of in speech, Max. Good. Um, like you fit into heterosexual society, and you kind of you like, um, sort of pass, you know, like, um, yeah, um, So there's this idea that it's it's ok to be gay, but just kind of don't flaunt your sexuality. Don't push your gayness onto anybody [00:11:30] else. And so that's certainly my experience, especially in sort of more rural centres and things like that that Yeah, you're you're OK to be gay as long as you're sort of you straighten up and you carry on like the rest of us kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so when I first started talking about doing this project, my first kind of, um, gut reaction was kind of Oh, I I'd much rather talk about poverty or environmental issues or something that, you know, um wasn't so personal for me because there's [00:12:00] kind of that idea that you don't really want to talk about being gay or queen at all. So, um, so really doing this project was almost like a kind of second coming up for me. I think like it. Um, it totally changed my perspective on queer issues and just kind of really threw me into queer activism and the way that I was like, I just didn't want to engage with before. I think so. Yeah. It was very cool. I loved it. Did doing those face to face interviews kind of change you in any other way? [00:12:30] Kind of like personally in terms of how you react to people or your level of acceptance or things like that? Yeah. I think, um, it was hugely educational for me, too. And also not just doing doing those interviews, but as part of the project, I got to go along to some of these queer youth who that, um um QS a network is doing. But the first one I went to was Kaz, which was run by Rainbow Youth in Auckland. And, um, that was just It was completely an experience of queerness that [00:13:00] just I hadn't experienced at all before. Like, um, I think there's a really strong gay culture, which I've been a part of, which is sort of that, um Yeah, it sort of kind of celebrates straight acting, Um, sort of gay men, sort of. And it's It's almost, um yeah, it it's not. It's not really what I would call queer culture. It's gay culture sort of thing. Um, whereas this who was sort of my first experience of queer culture, which is [00:13:30] much more fluid in terms of the way gender and sexuality is looked at and that was, well, that just kind of really just blew me away. I was just really amazed by these young people that talk about gender and sexuality and just like, such a fluid way and just, um, just a really accepting and open and kind of it's kind of just natural for them this kind of fluid to it. Yeah, so, yeah, very educational for me. You mentioned coming out, and I'm wondering, how [00:14:00] did your family respond when you're doing such a queer project and and how did they respond to you? I suppose initially, you know, in terms of coming out and then in terms of like, just being out there with this this kind of project, Um I suppose initially, um, coming out like, um, like anyone I suppose there's kind of that initial, um, kind of shock and challenge. And, um yeah, and probably I had a lot of anxiety. My parents are Anglican [00:14:30] ministers, so they, um, sort of have a lot of kind of respect in the small town community. And so I was quite concerned about sort of the impact that would have on them. And the way people might respond to them is more than how they might respond to me. I think so. Um, so that was quite challenging. But I think doing this project has probably been quite a learning experience for them too, because I've been able to kind of kind of share all these insights that I've gained with them. And so my mom has become, like, the biggest sort of [00:15:00] you know, um um, queer as folk the P flag. Mum, she's kind of a little bit like that, Debbie. Yeah, and so she's all sort of raving and queer and activist now, which is really cool. So yeah, she actually just recently, um, came out in the newspaper and all her, Um, because she's an arch DEA in Taranaki now, And all her sort of robes um, in support of gay marriage and sort of saying that she wanted she couldn't wait for the church to [00:15:30] marry same sex couples and got a bit of flack for it. But I was real proud that she came out and did that. So yeah, so they're pretty supportive when you see that in in the newspaper. What do you think? How do you feel? I think it's really cool, because, um, something that I kind of really tried to emphasise, and something that I really learned when doing this project was the, um the power of silence and the power of invisibility and how marginalising that is. And like, like my experience of growing up and actually being surrounded by [00:16:00] queer people. But not seeing them is, um, I think probably one of the most marginalising things. I think so, Um, so something that I want to keep kind of pushing is that we have to keep being really visible and keep making statements and stuff. So yeah. So for her to come out and, like, make a public statement and to be really visible, I think is really good, and yeah, and I'm really frustrated that I think, um, my experience of the church is that a lot of people are really supportive, [00:16:30] but they don't say anything, and so their their silence is part of the problem. I think so, Yeah. So it's really important that she comes out and says, How long did the research take? Um, it's it took about. Well, we wanted to finish it for Hamilton Pride, which was in September of 2011. So we started at the start of the year. So it was about nine months, I suppose. Yeah. Just working part time. I did it as a a university paper. [00:17:00] Yeah, through the year. And what were the the the the kind of key learnings that that you got from the research? Um, well, we, uh we came up with a sort of, um it's probably about 20 recommendations which are kind of, um, policy recommendations as well as kind of, um, need for activism and visibility from within the community as well. And so, um, so there's a few different things like, um, for example, we [00:17:30] talked about the need for error reporting to be much more specific and much more actually doing something not just kind of this token stick. At the moment. There's a, um, a sort of a tick box exercise where schools have to say that they have policies to prevent bullying. Um, including homophobic bullying. But all it really is is kind of a check the box and you pass kind of thing. And so there's I don't think there's I'm suspicious that there isn't a lot of real, um, genuine engagement with homophobic bullying [00:18:00] from a lot of schools. And so So, um, that's something that I think really needs to be pushed. Um, as a kind of a policy thing. Um, was that something in your interviews with the support people in terms of, you know, what was homophobic? Bullying Quite prevalent. Yeah, definitely. I think, um, it was also, um, the idea of bullying was quite big in the media at the time when this was going through last year. Um, and there was a lot of frustration that people were talking about bullying, but [00:18:30] just talking about bullying and not talking about homophobic bullying, which is kind of quite quite separate and quite, um, significant, and probably actually much more, um, damaging and actually, probably much more um, present, then just, um, non homophobe bullying, I think. Yeah. Um, something else that people really talked about is the need to keep, um, keep doing those visible celebrations and things [00:19:00] like the big day out. And, um and they're also talking about bringing back the hero parade in Auckland, which is really cool to see and really exciting just because, um, those sorts of things, they're really nice for the queer community to sort of all rally together and, um, support each other. But they're also really important in terms of the media visibility that they get because, like, for example, the 14 year old boy growing up in that doesn't have any gay role models but can turn on the six o'clock news and see all these beautiful, queer people and just kind of have this idea that Oh, there's [00:19:30] this community out there which one day I just might find or might run into. And so, yeah, just that visibility, I think, is really important. And so keep pursuing that be great. But I guess that also leads on to the the trying to, I guess, influence the media so they don't necessarily just stereotypes that actually, they portray the breadth of of the queer community. Yeah. Yeah. And that was another concern that people raised Is that when you have just hero parades and things like that, that [00:20:00] the only images that get portrayed in the media are sort of these really hyper sexualized. Kind of, Um, yeah, um, just just specific queer identities that not everybody, like some people, certainly do want to identify with those identities, but not everybody. So that is definitely a concern that how do you get, um, how do you get visibility that is kind of genuine and reflective of the queer community is a challenge. Um, something that I kind of talk about a little bit in the report and something I quite [00:20:30] like to do. What to think about developing is the idea of, like a, um just like a a toolkit for media engagement for queer activists and queer communities and that sort of thing, or even like a, um uh, a spreadsheet of, um, sort of go to people in the queer community who can speak to media outlets and things like that and just kind of, um keep engaging with the media and keep getting that positive involvement and that kind of accurate representation and things like that. So, um, [00:21:00] yeah, just kind of making putting the steps in place so that we have all these. Really, um, great people who would be fantastic role models, but just kind of putting the steps in place so that they can be talking to the media in a in a positive way, I think would be something that's quite helpful in terms of re visibility. Yeah. Did any of your findings surprise you? I think from the very beginning, they probably all did. Like, I [00:21:30] think, um, even just realising, um, the statistics around queer suicide and things like that, I think. Yeah. Um, the whole lot just really I think I went into it. Really? Um, just a really ignorant, um white, middle class gay man, you know, and just, um yeah. So the whole lot was just really educational and surprising to me. I think you mentioned earlier that that the initial parts of the research were to look overseas and to see what other countries are doing and what they're up [00:22:00] to. And how does New Zealand compare to countries overseas? I think there are like, I think all every different country is sort of, um has really good things and really negative things. And so it be hard to sort of rank them, I'd say. But, um, like certainly Scandinavian countries seem to have, um, seem to be further ahead. I think, um, in my own view that they have a better kind of education systems and things like that about talking about, um, [00:22:30] gender and sexuality in schools, which is much less kind of heteronormative, which is very much the case in New Zealand. That education system is very kind of hem and, um, sort of masculine as well. So yeah, um, and also, there are some some great things in the States as well, sort of around whether the, um QS a model, which is something that I think is really important and really exciting came out of, um, the GS, a network in the States, which is the gay [00:23:00] straight alliance, rather than the QS A in New Zealand, which is the que straight alliance. Um, which is great and, um, probably most surprisingly to me was, um, Tasmania seems to have really, um, progressive and liberal, um, education policies and, um, community health policies, especially around sort of trans issues and things like that, which is, um, yeah, surprised me, but which is really cool and like, um, a model that New Zealand could take on. I think in lots of ways [00:23:30] it's interesting you mentioned about the GS a and QS A and the idea of labelling. And I'm wondering, you know, do you know why in the US it's called the Gay Straight Alliance, and in New Zealand, it's called the Queer Strait Alliance. I'm not I'm not too sure. I think in New Zealand we've really claimed the idea of queerness and the queer identity and kind of rejected the word gay as an all encompassing word. Whereas maybe in the States, [00:24:00] they're still holding kind of onto that notion of gay representing the queer community or what I would call the queer community. So I think it's just a difference in language use. Yeah, um, I think it would be quite strange for the QS a and its current model, which is very much queer to kind of call itself the GS A. It would Yeah, it would be very kind of strange, but Yeah. In your interviews around the country, what were the kind of words that that people were using to either label themselves or or people [00:24:30] they worked with? Um, I think probably there's an interesting generational thing. Maybe going on Whereas, um where perhaps, um the older generation of people I were talking to would identify as gay and lesbian and, um and sort of maybe use acronyms like LGBT, whereas, um, the younger people I would talk I was talking to would just talk about being queer or queer people queer and trans [00:25:00] Maybe, but yeah, um but just use yeah, queer or gender Queer is their kind of all encompassing terms. So I think there's an interesting generational shift there. And I think, um, for all the older generation, queer is a really funny word that they don't like to associate with. Like, I know my parents really struggle with me using the word queer because they think it's quite a a really negative word, whereas gay has got quite a positive kind of spin to it for them. Whereas for my generation, gay [00:25:30] certainly has a very negative connotation in terms of high school culture. And so queer is less so. And I think queer has a more positive connotation. And I also have to apologise because at the at the front of this interview, II, I said, Oh, and and you're gay. Um, and I was completely making a whole range of assumptions, so I apologise. Um, how would you identify yourself? Um, I would I would I still identify as gay, but I would say I'm gay. [00:26:00] Um, My, like my gay identity fits within a queer community rather than fitting within year. Do does that make sense? So, um, so queer being the kind of broader umbrella term. But my identity would still be gay, I suppose. Yeah. If that makes sense, what impact has your research had? Um, I hope that it's a valuable resource to people, [00:26:30] um, wanting to pursue change. But I don't know whether it's had too much impact just yet. There's still more sort of things we're hoping to pursue with it, which hopefully will have more impact. But yeah, I don't want it to be. I think there's a kind of a tendency with especially academic reports to kind of produce something and then to sort of talk about it for a little while, and then for it to sort of be forgotten or Yeah, and I think that would be unfortunate, because I think it would be a waste of, um, the people I was talking to, sort of a waste [00:27:00] of their time and their voice, which I think is really valuable and I hope is kind of heard and represented. Well, so yeah. Um, So, for example, some of the things we'll be pursuing, um, hopefully into the future is, um, looking at error reporting in its current state and how effective or not effective it is by, um, looking at policies around bullying and things like that. And hopefully, um, presenting some kind of evidence about why there needs to be a [00:27:30] change there and hopefully getting getting some kind of change that would see actual policies and actual programmes implemented into schools that would, um, that would actually address homophobe bullying rather than just suggest that it's not an issue in the school. Want to tick a box kind of thing? I have a feeling I have a feeling that, um, you're being a bit modest because I was at AAA thing the other night where, um, a member of Parliament, uh, was very heavily referencing your, uh, research. What [00:28:00] does that feel like for you to have a a sitting MP referencing your work? Yeah. Um, yeah, that was that was pretty cool. I love Jen Loy. She's so beautiful. She's Yeah. Um but, um, yeah, that that was really amazing. And, um, very cool to think that, um, it's serving kind of a purpose. Or like, um, something that can be useful or be referenceable for them. So yeah, [00:28:30] kind of embarrassing, too. Yeah. So what next for Maori. So hopefully we'll be able to pursue some more, um, kind of research around schools and that sort of thing. But, um, in the immediate future, I'll be heading back to uni next year and doing Master's project. And, yeah, carrying on with my studies, I really enjoy studying in university life. And so yeah, what are the kind of areas that you'd be interested in in in maybe doing more research on? [00:29:00] I'm really interested in ideas about language and, um, especially media and how you kind of frame the debate and how things are talked about and how ideas are constructed and kind of public discourse and public conversation. So, um, I'd like to look at how we can, um, kind of use that tool of language and framing issues to, um, break down this silencing and sort of heteronormative structures that we see really apparent in public discourse. I think [00:29:30] so. That would be something I'd I'd love to look at more into. Mhm. We're just coming to the end of the Marriage Equality Conference, which we've been attending over the last couple of days. How has that been for you? It's been really cool. Actually, I, um I was kind of when the marriage equality, um, sort of movement started off. I kind of was. I kind of felt a bit funny about it. I kind of thought, um of all the issues for the queer community to sort of rally behind and kind of, [00:30:00] um, get active about. I kind of didn't think that marriage equality was the most important one. I sort of I would say, um just youth issues and, um, bullying and silencing and those sorts of things is actually and suicide is actually way more important than two people's right to get married. which is which is important for sure, but just Yeah, in the scheme of things, I wasn't sure it was the most the priority. But, um, I think it's been really, [00:30:30] really helpful and really important. Just, um, I've been really amazed at how the community has really got behind it and sort of kind of gone through this re coming out process where they've all sort of, um I've been amazed to see my friends who have really struggled to talk about their queerness in the past to kind of, um, write submissions that are, like, incredibly powerful and just have me bawling my eyes out when I read them. Just really, um, sharing their story. And I think it's been really empowering [00:31:00] for, um, queer people to just come out and campaign behind this issue and to kind of come together and in the process. I think it is breaking down all those issues around silence and heteronormative because we're kind of challenging that kind of marginalisation by talking about this issue and pursuing it and saying that this is, um that we you know, we want equality. That's kind of our right as citizens. And so yeah, I think it's been like it's been a um it's given, [00:31:30] like, huge energy and growth to the community, even though it's probably not something I initially expected to be, um, really important or really powerful. I think it definitely has been.

IRN: 683
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/marriage_equality_conference_fighting_homophobia.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004085
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089379
TITLE: Fighting Homophobia - Marriage Equality Conference
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Bill Logan; Eileen Brown; Jan Logie; Nigel Studdart; Rawa Karetai; Steve Farrow (Rainbow Network)
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Argentina; Assume Nothing (film); Bill Logan; Board of Trustees; Education Review Office (ERO); Eileen Brown; Human Rights Act (1993); InsideOUT Kōaro; Jan Logie; Marriage Equality Campaign (Wellington); Marriage Equality Conference (2012); Murray Riches; New Zealand Council of Trade Unions (CTU); Nigel Studdart; Northland; Out at Work Network; Pacific; Parliament buildings; Pompallier Catholic College; Post Primary Teachers Association (PPTA); Rainbow Network; Rainbow Wellington; Shelley Te Waiariki Howard; St Andrew's on the Terrace; Steve Farrow (Rainbow Network); TVNZ (Television New Zealand); The Queer Avengers (Wellington); Uganda; Wellington; West Coast; Westport; Whangarei; Women's Refuge; activism; adoption; bullying; charter schools; civil unions; discrimination; diversity; education; elder care; elder issues; elders; equality; ethnicity; facebook. com; family; gay; gender identity; health; health system; heteronormativity; homophobia; invisibility; isolation; kicked out; labels; language; lesbian; marriage equality; media; mental health; peer support; politics; prejudice; public display of affection (PDA); queer; queer straight alliance (QSA); re-education; school; school prom; sexuality; social media; stereotypes; suicide; teaching; television; transgender; transphobia; unions; youth
DATE: 1 December 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: St Andrew's on the Terrace, 30 The Terrace, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the second keynote panel discussion: Fighting Homophobia in Our Communities. Speakers include Bill Logan, Eileen Brown, Steve Farrow, Jan Logie and Nigel Studdart. The panel discussion was held at St Andrew's on the Terrace. Jan Logie refers to Murray Riches' research How Do We Make it Better. Murray was also interviewed.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: And welcome to the marriage Equality Conference. We're here tonight to talk about fighting homophobia, workplaces, schools, family and elsewhere. It's my privilege to be here as the chair for tonight. I am the conference chair, and my name is and we have a few, um, pretty decent people on the panel tonight. Um Well, not pretty decent. They are decent people. Um, we've got could have that perspective. [00:00:30] Well, and it is my job to try to control this lot. It's gonna be quite entertaining. OK, uh, we have, uh, Nigel at the end, come all the way from Northland. So, uh, please a round of applause for we've got Steve Farrow from PPT. A, uh, rainbow network. We have Eileen Brown from out at work. [00:01:00] Bill Logan, a longtime queer activist for especially from 1986 and helping with, uh, the conference. So, uh, a round of applause for his help. And we do hope to have Jan Logie some time. Um, tonight's, uh, run sheet is basically, uh, we're gonna go through these guys. We'll get the the panel, we'll get them over and done with, and, you know, you can move on, but, um, basically, [00:01:30] you know, it is a really serious issue. Uh, it's one of the major campaigns that I, um, personally think is important. Um, I was fortunate enough to be in Australia to launch their anti homophobia campaign recently while you guys were here rallying. Um, for this for this campaign. Um, so it's a privilege to be, uh, welcoming you all here tonight. We've had a great time so far. At a conference last night, we had, sir Ian, um, saying that he could potentially get married [00:02:00] at Middle Earth, which is quite exciting. And it hit international media coverage, which I'm very proud of. Uh, we are in France Press, which is quite exciting. So, um, you know, our messages are getting, um, out there and and and to have Sir Ian to, um, support us has been, uh, fantastic, actually. Um, each of the panel members will be talking about their experiences. You'll obviously know the different connections. Um, but, uh, for those, [00:02:30] if you don't know, you have to just wait a bit tired to introduce a little bit, but it's ok, um but we will have them to go through, and then there will be questions and comments at the end. Just note that we are being recorded at the moment. So if you don't want to be recorded, please say so or come and see us at the end. The technicians at the back will, uh, will cut your comments out. If you are wanting to to ask a question, uh, and we'll have a chance for final remarks and general notices at the end. We now welcome Bill [00:03:00] Logan to speak. Mostly I want to talk about Queer Avengers, um, which is really one of the more amazing organisations I've ever had anything to do with, uh, if only for the rather incredibly diverse range of people involved in it the widest range of age and [00:03:30] gender identity. Uh uh, And, uh, maybe other kind of, uh, thing that you can think of it started, Really? I think, with a round of rather nasty gay bashings in Wellington. What was it? Only last year? Early last year. And we had this big demonstration of the night. Uh, and out [00:04:00] of that was a determination not to let it go on and not to leave it at a single demonstration, but to give it a continuing existence. And so we set up this this little organisation, um, and we sat around for quite a long time simply talking about what our priorities would be. And so we kind of developed [00:04:30] Well, there's this old myth that, uh, the world rests on three whales. And I see, uh, queer Avengers as having three whales that it sits on. The question of homophobia in schools, the question of the oppression of trans folk [00:05:00] and the question of homophobia in relation to, uh, to old age. Jan yeah. So those schools, [00:05:30] I believe, are the worst place in New Zealand to not be straight the I mean, I suppose teenagers are by their nature, trying to work out who they are and a bit difficult about it. Uh, and some of that difficulty in the context of New Zealand turns out to be hurting one another if they don't fit the proper gender stereotype very often. Uh, [00:06:00] and that is often supported more or less actively, sometimes not so actively by the staff of the schools. So you have an environment where there's bullying in many places, and that's pretty nasty. It's it. It it. It's reinforced by uniform codes and other like bathrooms and so on, which [00:06:30] make it difficult to to decide to be neutral, to be to to to change your mind. Uh, and and, uh, there's nowhere to go that's intersex. In many, many cases, we need teacher education. We need systematic intervention against bullying. We need queer student, [00:07:00] a queer straight alliances or similar institutions in in every school. We need the ER O, the Education Review Authority, to check in every school in ordinary in every report they do on whether there is bullying at a school. Whether there is homophobia that should be routine, it can be done very, very easily just by a signature from the minister. Doesn't not a big big reform to ask, [00:07:30] but that's slow, Uh, and it would make a huge difference, actually, just that little change that every school was reported on in relation to bullying and homophobia and problems in that school. Um, and we also need mechanisms to support kids who are identified at school as having problems from [00:08:00] their families because we in queer support organisations very often find that these kids kicked out of their families and there's got to be some way of catching this up. You know, 15 16 year olds kicked out of their families, and we actually have no way of dealing with this as a society. It's extraordinarily difficult to get the independent youth [00:08:30] benefit for these kids, and they are universally suicidal, like I don't know of exceptions. There must be exceptions, but I don't know of exceptions to kids getting kicked out of home, UH, a A and being suicidal. So there's a huge set of problems there, and Queer Avengers sees this as one of its main priorities. [00:09:00] We also see support for trans struggles as a priority. We tend to be guided by trans organisations who are active on these issues. Uh, we wish to support access to decent health care and medical attention, and we want to support extension of the human rights legislation for trans [00:09:30] folk. And the third thing is queer old people, because queer old people, like other old people, get forgotten. And if you get forgotten in the context of being heterosexual, the forgetting it can be unfortunate. But it, uh, it isn't quite as alienating. And, uh, the general de sexualization of the old [00:10:00] is much more severe in our society for queer people. Uh, we haven't got very far with that sort of project. We're an organisation that does a lot of talking, a lot of working out of what we should do. We have an ethos, and we haven't got very far with the talking in in relation to old age queer issues, [00:10:30] the ethos of talking of thinking about family structures, ideology, politics is pretty unusual. I find, uh, in this organisation at this time at this historical period. There is not much talk among young people in particular in New Zealand about these kinds of issues. And one of the exceptions to that [00:11:00] lack of talk is in Queer Avengers. So as a group that is dominated by young people, grappling these issues and giving attention to, uh, the wider community and not their own narrow concerns is pretty impressive. I think it's an organisation which gives a place for thought, a place for discussion, a place for completely unrestricted sexualities and identities, [00:11:30] and a place for a lot of laughter. Uh, one of the things which is unusual. I go to a lot of meetings, uh, a lot of meetings and I must say that one of the differences about Queer Avengers is that there's an awful lot of laughter at those meetings. Uh, so I think, on those grounds alone, it's an organisation which should be taken pretty [00:12:00] seriously. The politics of members of Queer Avengers ranges from not much at all to bit liberal to raving Commie. Um, I am at one end of that spectrum. I won't tell you which end. Um, [00:12:30] but the interesting thing about it is that there's a huge tolerance and, um, openness to each other's opinions. And so there tends to be, um, a bit of a ferment of ideas and a productive tension of ideas in the organisation. So, I, I think that we've got to, [00:13:00] uh, IIII. I was asked to get up and talk about the organisation. I'm very proud to have been asked to do that, because I think that it's an organisation which offers more to our communities than any other single organisation. There is. Thanks. Thank you, Bill. Um, next up, we're going to [00:13:30] have Eileen Brown and Steve Farrow to talk about out of work in PPT A in the Rainbow new league. Um, I've had the great pleasure to work with Eileen in a recent campaign. And that was, um, a great experience. Thank you for that. But thank you for coming along tonight as well. Thanks. Um, thanks very much. Uh, um, Steve and I, Steve's my union brother, and we're one tonight, [00:14:00] so, um, don't know what you call us, but, uh, I'm going to talk a bit about the art of Work Network, which is the CTU New Zealand Council of Trade Unions Network. And Steve is, uh, from the Post-primary Teachers Association. And that's an affiliate of the CTU. And, um, that, uh, union has its own network too. But let me tell you a little bit about, um, our network and it was great, um, to follow. Bill, Um, I loved [00:14:30] the, um, comment that you made about a lot of laughter because I'm involved in quite a lot of CD U groups, and I'd have to say See, the keep our ass sales campaign had a lot of laughter, too, and but certainly out at work, we have a lot of laughter and yeah, a lot of creativity. Um, So it's our network for lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans transgender intersex and union members. And [00:15:00] any member of the union affiliated to the CTU can belong to the out of work network. So some unions like the PPT A like a post Primary Teachers Association like the Public Service. And I recognise a couple of out of work people from the PS a here or who have been members of the PS a out of work network. Um, here tonight. Some unions like those unions as well as the Service and Food Workers Union, uh, have got networks of their own. [00:15:30] But it does mean when we have AC TU network that any member of a union who's affiliated to the CTU can be part of a network. Uh, and many unions don't have networks, uh, lesbian, gay, trans, transgender, intersex and workers. And from now on, I'll just use the word queer because that's how we get stuck with acronyms. And, um, that's the word that we chose to use so that [00:16:00] queer workers are a sizable group in the New Zealand workforce and there are significant employment issues, and I'm sure we'll hear some of them tonight. The disc the, uh, Human Rights Commission inquiry to be who I am found that work discrimination was the most common discrimination faced by transgender workers. And discrimination is one of the most common forms of um, discrimination in the workplace is one of the most common forms of discrimination [00:16:30] experienced by queer workers. So our networks committed to expo, exposing the employment issues that queer workers face and to eliminate discrimination based on sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression. Highlighting those issues is a fundamental objectives for us, but it's not only a fight about discrimination in the workforce. We also have a challenge in the union movement, too. While diversity is seen as one [00:17:00] of the strengths of the union movement, in many cases the concept of diversity in trade unions falls well short of celebrating and accepting sexual diversity. So we organise in our network a fight against homophobia and transphobia in a number of different ways. We, um I just want to recognise the work of Jack Byrne, um, from the Human Rights Commission who has been very involved in our network and, um, educate us a lot about Transphobia. [00:17:30] A critical event for us is our biennial camp and camps spelled K a MP where Queer Union members get together with speakers, workshops and training events, which have a focus on union employment issues like the kind of issues that our workers are facing now with the reduction of employment rights. But we also and, uh, we plan and organise about the fight against homophobia and transphobia and make a plan about things that we're going to, um, do in the following two years, [00:18:00] Marie Bruce Mitchell has been a speaker at our camp a number of times and led workshops on transgender awareness and training. And they are. So she is, um they are so, uh that they are very, very important and and and they're so life changing. I think, um, that's certainly the feedback that we've had. Uh, we've had some pretty amazing speakers that have inspired us over the five camps. What's been most powerful is people telling their personal stories [00:18:30] and challenging us as as a network and guiding our and helping us recognise and challenge our own internal homophobia and transphobia. So it's really important for us to be a constitutional part of the CTU. We we are in the Constitution. I can't remember what number but this part of part of being, um it it being part of the Constitution gives us a standing. It enables us to respond [00:19:00] on issues of significant importance. This week, we made a press statement, Um uh, followed by the International Trade Union Confederation's press statement about the, uh, current bill before the Ugandan Parliament, which brings the death penalty for certain homosexual acts. And I'm sure people here know about it, and, um, we can find out some information. You can find out some information if you want further. We wrote to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Murray McCully, urging [00:19:30] him to take a stand on the, um uh, and urging that the Commonwealth Leaders Forum should take a stand against Uganda on this bill. The CTU has endorsed the Montreal Declaration on the rights of, uh LGBTI workers and people and supports the YOY Cara principles. So we actually have established policy for standing out on standing up and speaking out against gay and human rights abuses when we need to speak out publicly. [00:20:00] So finally, in relation to the Marriage Equality bill, the out of work network was quite well prepared with a position on marriage equality before the bill was even drawn after we witnessed the fiasco on the other side of the ditch with the position of the Aussie Trade Union movement on marriage, Equality, our youth network and our standard work stand Sorry. Our out of work network developed a paper last the end of last year, which placed the reasons why the CTU and our unions should [00:20:30] support marriage, equality and same sex marriage and same sex adoption. And that paper was unanimously supported by our affiliates in February 2012. The basis in our position, paper was firmly on equality. And how can you How can trade unionists not vote for equality? So no wonder we were unanimously, you know, we got a unanimous endorsement because equality is a is a fundamental trade union value. We said in that paper that trade [00:21:00] unions need to be on the right side of history in New Zealand, at least on this issue. So we acknowledge that the CTU, uh, leadership um, Helen Kelly and Peter Conway are are completely supportive of our out of work network. Um, including we get some financial support, but that support exists because of the hard work, leadership and commitment of people in the out of network who fly the flag every day in the unions and in their workplaces. And they're totally committed to a fight against homophobia and transphobia. [00:21:30] So in, um, eight days, we're going to go to the select Committee and we'll be represented by Kina Brown from the Art at Work Network comes from Christchurch and Helen Kelly, who will represent the CTU. And we'll inform the New Zealand Parliament that CTU supports marriage equality because trade, because a core trade union value is equality. So thanks very much. I've got a couple of, um, promos. We've got that, uh, little, um, pamphlet [00:22:00] on on, uh, on our network. And one thing I didn't mention, um which I'll just refer to lastly, is that, uh, the Public Service Association have done some very interesting work on a paper called Sexual Orientation and Gender Minorities in the New Zealand Workplace. And it is online. Um, So if you are interested, just, um, speak to me. Speak to Sarah. You I'm sure she'll hit you in the right direction. Um, but that's quite [00:22:30] an interesting paper. Looking at the experience of New Zealand public sector workers in the workplace today, so thank you. I'll pass over to Steve. Um, PB D. A post-primary Teachers Association. Um, has had a rainbow network. Originally, it was called the Safe Schools Task force. Lovely mouthful, [00:23:00] Um, and that was established in the, um, late in the mid 19 nineties. Um, it was, um, constituted as a result of a vote at PP. A annual conference and its original brief was to prepare materials that could be used in educating teachers and raising the issues of homophobia, um, [00:23:30] and equality and all those sorts of things. And those things were written in a around about the turn of the century. Um, since then, the group has continued and about 18 months ago changed its name to the Rainbow Network. Um, one of the things that has, um there wasn't a lot of uptake, I must say, out of the materials that were originally written, Um, and there is a safe school, um, toolkit [00:24:00] that's on the PP. A website. And anybody I think, actually can get to it from the public side. Um, but about 18 months two years ago, um, one of the members of the of the task force was actually sent to a, um, seminar thing in Aussie that was run by some educators from the National Education Association, which is one of the big American teacher unions. And they actually have dedicated GL BT I educators [00:24:30] for work within the Union. Um, New Zealand hasn't managed to get that far yet. Really? But, um, these people running workshops on the sorts of courses that could be delivered the person who went for us came back and reworked the material so that it had New Zealand focus. And we're now trying to run, um, run that out across the country. Um, and the first [00:25:00] one is about language. Um, the idea is that it would be a an after school professional development session of about an hour to an hour and a quarter. That would be run with the whole staff. Um, naturally enough for that to happen. You've actually got to be invited in. And as comments were made by Bill before schools can be very difficult places in terms of believing that actually the problem exists. Um, the number of times we've heard [00:25:30] that statement, there are no gays in this school. Good. Right. Um actually talking about homophobia. Um, I do have some personal experience of it. Um, not that I'm here to put hearts on sleeves and stuff, but, um, having been put in the situation only because I moved to a small town, which I actually liked, the town a place called Westport, where I was teaching at [00:26:00] the high school there. And not long after I arrived, I met a very nice man who was a a long term resident. He'd been born there and he said to me, You've only got to be seen down the You've been seen down the street with me once. If you're seen down the street with me twice, you're out. I chose to be seen twice. Now, by then, I'd been teaching for 20 years. I didn't have too many problems in with class discipline All of a sudden, every [00:26:30] and respect for the building. Maybe. But every asshole kid now had a reason why they could act up in my room. And it did become absolute. If I'd been 23 the age I was when I started teaching instead of 42 I actually probably would have died over the harassment that happened. And that was despite the fact that, um, that [00:27:00] was 2000. Uh, sorry. 1996. Despite the fact that three years earlier the, um, Human Rights Act had been passed, which outlawed discrimination on the basis of, um, sexual orientation. Um, my boss's view, when a colleague of mine asked him about it, was that he neither condemned nor Condoned. Mm. Um, I actually couldn't leave my room during intervals and lunchtimes unlocked, [00:27:30] because if I did, I'd come back and find it turned upside down. Nobody ever found out who the kids were, but that actually does happen in New Zealand schools. I also know, since those, you know, when I lived with in 2003, um, and I left, um, regretfully, um, and I taught at the high school by them for eight years. Um, the number of kids who have contacted me from that school since then [00:28:00] who I wouldn't have had a clue what their sexual orientation was. I mean, as a teacher, it's not really a thing of much interest to me about the pupils in front of me, but have come to me afterwards and said that they appreciated what I'd had to put up with, but also that it was actually worth having visible gay lesbian into six transgender people working in the education system in terms of role modelling [00:28:30] and normalisation of our condition within society. So working towards that jumping now forward a bit to the Rainbow Task Force, the materials that were brought back have been reworked, and it get the staff to examine. First of all, it says, why you need to examine it. It looks a pedagogy of Hey, we've got to look after the safety of all kids, and [00:29:00] if we don't look after their safety first, they'll never learn. So Maslow's hierarchy of needs all that garbage, um, and then have a look at their understanding of what the words GL BT I and you know exactly what it meant. And then look at why it might be needed to address language in schools across the board. And we [00:29:30] use the, um, uh, use health. Um, 2002 was it? And 2007. And there's a new mine of information just about to arrive out of the one done last year and highlight the terrible statistics that are demonstrated there of what happens to gay and lesbian students and intersex and transgender, um, and then intersperse that with a few of those lovely, um, public service announcement [00:30:00] advertisements that happened in America, none of which happened in New Zealand. Things like it's so gay and people being challenged over that and then, um, get them to talk about how they might challenge that sort of. And we keep it really simple in talking about language. In the end, what we want them to challenge is any student who says, Let's go and just doing [00:30:30] that in every classroom. Every time I remember, I used to say when kids in my class who knew I was gay would say about something else that's gay, I'd say, No, it isn't, it's netball And I'd go what? Mr you know, but teachers who don't realise there's a problem are a problem Now what we have done with this programme, I, um, [00:31:00] co facilitate co facilitated it with a member of executive to the PP, a national executive this year, so that they could see what the hell we were talking about. And then a pilot programme was established where, um we picked well, we tried to get to 10 to a dozen schools across the country. Single sex, rural, you know, a whole mix and the programme has been delivered. The evaluation hasn't yet happened. But if you know anybody who's attached to a high school, [00:31:30] get them to contact PPD a and we will have the programme taken to them. So that's what an individual union is doing to try and combat that problem within the education sector. Going back to something you said Bill. Actually, there was a change under Chris Carter. He wasn't a very good minister of education, unfortunately, But he did get added in to the inspection of schools The thing about looking at homophobic, um, rules [00:32:00] and regs within the school. Um, unfortunately, government since then, you know it's leadership and insistence. And that's why, um, getting buy in within a school. It takes the principle and getting a buy in for the ministry. Or actually, they need to be hounded by their political masters. There isn't that will at the moment. Unfortunately, [00:32:30] I do know that both PB D A and lots of other organisations rainbow Wellington, for example, have lobbied successive governments that are actually just addressing bullying isn't enough. Homophobic bullying is actually quite a separate beast and is partly the reason for the difficulties that a particular group of students in a school faces. So that's what's happening in some places. [00:33:00] Thank you. Eileen and Steve. Um, after today's discussion, we had, uh, teddy talk about, um, Q SAS and organising in school. So I'm sure there's gonna be a lot of discussion if not at question time. But after the networks, Like I said earlier, um, it's my privilege to introduce a phenomenal star. Um, [00:33:30] I've been watching this person for a very long time. Uh, since I found out about, uh, her and, um, have been quite inspired by the work that she continues to do on an everyday basis. Uh, Jen, um is a fellow colleague. I fortunate enough to work with her sometimes, but, um, I met Jan, uh, during the national elections last year. Fortunately, I did something a bit silly, but, um, she's forgiven me since [00:34:00] I hope she doesn't even know about it. But, um, Jen, uh, has done an amazing amount of work. Um, not only for the queer community. Um, but for women's rights. And, um, I really do look forward to seeing her career develop over time. And and very, um, happy to see the work that you do do in Parliament and outside Parliament. So welcome to the stage, Jan. [00:34:30] I'm a little embarrassed about that introduction. Thanks. Um, so tonight and it's great. I see Murray rich in the audience here, and I'm going to talk quite a bit about, um, your research, Murray, actually. And, um So while not being the expert, um, it's your work That kind of gives a basis for a lot of my thinking about where things are at at the moment, um, which was a report that was sponsored by Kevin Hague [00:35:00] that Murray researched and wrote last year, called How do we make It better? Um, and it's about the safety of queer Youth. Um, and I think gives us a lot of really, really good pointers about what we need to be doing in this country. And I also want to talk a bit about I guess the community and environment sector, because that's where I come from and share a kind of, I think, a story that's a bit of a contrast or a bit of an example, I think of what we [00:35:30] could be doing, which is, and it's kind of a personal story, my coming out story as well. Um, because Murray's research shows that for young queer youth, one of the biggest problems is just the assumption of heterosexuality and the fact that, you know, we're living in a world that's just assuming everyone straight. And when you [00:36:00] trying to work out your place in the world and work out who you are and you're surrounded by all these images that are telling you, what it is to be is to be straight and what you're feeling and what you're noticing in yourself doesn't match that it it's a problem, and it causes a lot of problem. And if I think for myself, you know, I've now I identify as a lesbian. [00:36:30] When I was at school, you know, I tried having boyfriends. My first boyfriend thought I was a lesbian. I didn't get it all the you know, all the bitches on my walls were girls. I didn't know what he was talking about, like, because it just wasn't an option. I just had no sense that that was any kind of reality. It was [00:37:00] just, you know, you were straight. So I was trying my best. It wasn't quite working, but I was trying and and that's so I And there were a lot of problems for me that went along with that. You know, I was really, really unhappy. Had mental health issues, made no connection to any of that stuff. It just it didn't They weren't related in my head. I had no understanding that it was about sexuality at all. It was just I didn't [00:37:30] get the world. Um, and then interestingly, I moved to Wellington. So that was kind of going all through university and university, being really the same, like very in fact, possibly as you know, living in hostels and universities. And I know Sara is doing research on that, and I'm really interested in the outcomes of that, because for me it was a very, very heterosexual environment and incredibly difficult [00:38:00] to, um to try and be straight in when you weren't really which I can now say reflecting back on, um and then moved to Wellington and worked for Women's Refuge and women's refuge is a really interesting organisation because there are four cornerstone values within refuge and one of those is feminism and another is bicultural. Um, another is collectivism, and the fourth one is lesbian [00:38:30] visibility. And on my very first day at work and the weekend, actually, um, I had to go and pick up some donations and I was going to be working with a volunteer, and I had to go on the door and knock on the door and pick her up and opened the door. And I was like, Oh, oh, gosh, you know, like and I'm sure there was a whole lot more to it than that, but [00:39:00] and she was incredibly hot. But there was something about there being in that environment in that organisation, a clear naming of a space to be that I do think influenced my ability to be. And I think it's quite profound. And it's something that is a very, [00:39:30] very, very rare space. And in in that space, you know, the lesbian, um, within. And I think, you know, obviously there's issues with the naming of that, that it's lesbian visibility. It's not any wider than that, Um, but it was for me. Luckily, being lesbian incredibly, um, free thing And the collective there was a collective. [00:40:00] So there was the, um, lesbian collective and or caucus and the rest of the collective and all the cool kids were in the lesbian caucus, which also really helped because it was, you know, there was this kind of group that you were drawn to and if you weren't and I resisted coming up publicly for a while because it was I wanted to and I loved being able to, um, with this newfound knowledge, be able to challenge homophobia as a straight woman, [00:40:30] you know? So it did take me a while, but, um but, uh, yeah, I think community organisations We have a lot of them in this country and they play really important roles in our society. And I think it's really important that we actually look at the potential of those spaces for developing our society and also how we can take some of the models that they're using into other spaces. [00:41:00] Like, I imagine, you know, the queer straight alliances and schools are in effect the same thing as for me, that lesbian visibility, that lesbian caucus and just by being there enable people to be able to be there. Um and I think so, Yeah. So that's that point I wanted to make. Also, I worked in, [00:41:30] um, Youth health for a while and because another thing in Murray's report is looking around, um, services for young people and the importance of the professionals having the right knowledge. And it was, you know, youth health services. That was the second one in the country, the one I set up. But now they're even though, of course, they're having funding struggles increasingly, but they there are quite a few of them around the country. And they are [00:42:00] a very important space that they're confidential, um, nonjudgmental services with peer support programmes. However, you can't assume that even within that space, people are gonna get it that people are going to understand queer realities that, um I had ongoing dramas when I was there with, um, tragically with our representative, who every [00:42:30] time she came to the centre would rip down the queer visibility posters and that'd suddenly be gone When I went and looked around. So I had to continually replace them. Thank you. AIDS foundation. Um and so that was a real tension. And and those those posters were part of providing that space of saying yes, we know you're here, you can talk to us. And another, [00:43:00] the peer support workers would quite often we had, um quite early on the discussions about is it OK to say that's so gay? And they were like, Well, you know, it's just language. It doesn't mean anything. I was like, OK, so So right now you're telling me you're straight and I'm walking in here questioning my sexuality and I hear you say that am I welcome [00:43:30] and they got it. But unless somebody's got that analysis to have that conversation, they come, you know, it would just keep going and those safe spaces would not be safe. As I can imagine, many schools are not safe, and many youth organisations are not safe because there are. You can't guarantee at the moment that there is the training for the social workers or for the nurses or for the doctors, or for the school [00:44:00] teachers to ensure and to know what is safe and what isn't, which was another point in various research very handily. Um, and another point that he's making, um, which is around, you know, bullying is one factor. Isolation is another and visibility is another. And I can speak to that too. From my experience of, um also of having come out and [00:44:30] then going and living in a culture. Um, we are I didn't have a community and I wasn't out. And how for the for the first time, I left that culture after, um, being there for a year. And I saw somebody and they spotted me. And like I honestly, I skipped for about 100 metres after they'd spotted me because it was so amazing to be seen [00:45:00] after a year of not being seen and these things that they sound like, you know, they're one word in a report or actually, you wrote a few paragraphs, but, um but, you know, like you can just say invisibility is a problem, but actually, unless we think about what that means and how profound that is not to see yourself reflected or not to see a diversity reflected [00:45:30] to give you a space of choice of being, Then we're not going to be able to make a difference. And our young people are going to continue to really struggle. Another point, um, which is linking to that is that, um, the struggle over diversity within our own communities? A. And we see that on many levels. We see that around, um, 10 [00:46:00] of ethnicity and sexuality and people being us, still struggling, I think, at times to have spaces where people are able to be themselves and fully in their cultural identity and fully within their sexual orientation or gender identity. And that, for me, is a space that I have spaces that I hope we can work much harder to create because they're going to be beautiful, beautiful spaces. [00:46:30] But I'm yet to see them very often, and I and I think it's a tragic, tragic thing if people feel as if they have to choose. And I don't think that's just the fault. If you take um, the example of the Pacific groups that were marching and protesting against marriage equality, I don't think it's just their fault that there's that tension. [00:47:00] I think there is something and I say this as a woman who has a responsibility around that, um so I think and also obviously in terms of I certainly think from when I first came out to now we've made progress, and that's for me, not as the group affected, but in terms of integration and understanding of inclusion of gender, um, diversity and, um, intersex analysis [00:47:30] and understanding within the, you know, the dominant gay lesbian cultures. Um, but we still need to acknowledge I think that the gay lesbian cultures are still dominant and we need to give up a bit of that power and a bit of that space, um, to allow others to be and create more spaces so that we have the full beauty of our communities more readily at hand. Um, [00:48:00] I feel like, um so in terms of my job now in Parliament, Obviously there's I think that's a really key space in terms of legislative change that needs to be done not being in government. We don't have the power to impact directly around policy, and there's a lot of policy work. I think that needs to be done, particularly in relation to schools. But I also think within the health sector, um, and supporting community organisations and that diversity, [00:48:30] understanding and awareness um, Kevin Haig and I are looking at trying to audit EOS reviews of schools because they do need to be, um, ensuring that schools have anti gay bullying policies and they're ticking them off. But we're wanting to make sure that they check that people know they've got those policies. Not just that the policy exists as we suspect may be, um, the case, [00:49:00] Um, and there's a huge, obviously amount of work to be done in terms of changing the Human Rights Act to ensure that gender identity is a basis for non-discrimination. We need to be, um, ensuring that our health system actually enables people to transition. And I would love to see us do what's happened in Argentina, where people and though we do need to acknowledge that yesterday the Passport Office made [00:49:30] a, um, world leading change in terms of people being able to change their gender identity, Um, which is amazing and great progress. But we could do what Argentina did, and their parliament voted unanimously to enable people to choose themselves. How radical is that? What their gender identity is? No doctors, no lawyers involved, none of them needed. Actually, trusting [00:50:00] people may know themselves crazy concept and how fabulous. That would be to see in our laws. And I would also personally like to see um, quite intrigued by the law that went through in the US this year. Um, making it illegal for religious groups to, um, try and reeducate people out of being gay. Because I know that's happening here. I've [00:50:30] had a friend who's been through one of those courses, thankfully met a girlfriend and the course you. But those kind of courses cost lives, and they and I do not believe they should be allowed. So there is a huge amount of work to do and one of the other, I think, final points to make before I go on too long. Um, that's in. Murray's report is also, I think, to be really mindful of, which is why I'm so pleased [00:51:00] this panel is happening, that there's a temptation that as we make progress in terms of law reform for people, then to assume that everything's OK and to think that homophobia is suddenly gone because we've got the legal changes and well, you know, society has accepted that, so we don't need to be conscious. We don't need to change our systems or our policies anymore, and that is very clearly [00:51:30] and absolutely not true. So it's really great to be able to be having these two conversations at once. And I'm really so pleased that Queer Avengers has organised this. Thank you. We've got to do this money thing again. So I'm I'm going to hand around, uh, these [00:52:00] things some of you have given as much as you can, and that's fine, but that we still have only paid probably a third of the costs of the conference. I think so. I'm just gonna pass these around. It's not too. Yeah. Um, yes. I mean, conference has been, um, very cheap. [00:52:30] We've tried to do this as as cheap as possible to make it as accessible as possible. Uh, and so I'd just like to take the opportunity now to thank all the volunteers for doing all the work. Um, you know, the exhausting amount of hours, uh, sleepless nights and, um, all of the volunteer work that we've managed to pull all of this together and have such a fabulous event. So thank you all for that. So a round of applause for the moment, please. Please. [00:53:00] All right, Our last panel speaker is Nigel Studdard. Now, Nigel's come here, uh, this weekend and joined us in conference. Uh, we've brought him down from Northland. So, uh, uh, Nigel is a a teacher who's been sacked from Northland College for standing up against homophobia. Now I think it's our duty as, um well, [00:53:30] for me, especially as a queer person to stand up and support people like Nigel and the other panel members and even yourselves, you know, we do need to stand up and look after each other, especially when we're the ones that are being attacked. And we are the ones that need to be leading the the the fight for acceptance and equality. And I am absolutely privileged that I've been able to help in some regard to that. But I really do want to thank all of you to be, um, to have been a part of that. It's not [00:54:00] just us that doing the work, it's you that are doing the work. It's the discourse that you are having with your family, your friends and your and getting that out into the community that is really making the difference. It's not just us, so Please don't take, um, what we're doing as the work you're doing the work, right? So, um but we do need to make sure we are standing up and supporting people like Nigel. Nigel said at the time. Obviously he felt really upset that he'd lost his job, [00:54:30] but he couldn't have done anything else. And every time he gets another message, it really confirms what he did was the right thing. The amount of support people have put in behind Nigel was phenomenal. And the discussions I've had with Nigel has been really a true testament to who we are as people who we are as New Zealanders and who we are to make sure that we do support these people. So it's my privilege to, um, have him as our honoured guest during conference and [00:55:00] for me to introduce Nigel ST Thanks for. And it's lovely to be here and thank you all so much for all the support that you've given to me, I think what's really important here is homophobia is not a gay lesbian transgender problem. It's everybody's problem. It's prejudice. Prejudice is [00:55:30] everybody's problem. Now. I'm a straight guy. I've got four kids. I'm married. Um, my partner's a wonderful lady. She's a midwife. She works with families that are going through challenges. What I see in schools I I was really shocked at at Pompeo Catholic College. Really shocked. I didn't really think there was a problem As a teacher, I thought my students were safe. I thought they were happy. That was certainly [00:56:00] the impression that I was getting until we get a polarising event. Now what Polarised The students in that school was a newsletter that was written by the principal. That newsletter was entitled Keeping Marriage sacred. And I'm sure some of you will have read that. Has everybody read that? Has everybody seen that newsletter? I'd encourage you to read through it. It was a newsletter entitled Keeping Marriage Sacred. Um, it's a Catholic school. I understand it's a Catholic school. I'm not a Catholic. I'm a Christian. I teach in a Catholic school [00:56:30] used to teach at a Catholic school. Um, that newsletter went one step beyond what is accepted Catholic doctrine accepted Catholic doctrine is that gay marriage is not acceptable. That newsletter went one step beyond that. It went to a step that I found the first time I read it to just be offensive. I knew something was wrong, but I couldn't really put my finger on it. My daughters could when they read it. What it said was that it [00:57:00] contended that gay parents would be more possessive and in some way less a parents than heterosexual parents. That meant that students in my classroom would be less a parents if they were gay. It meant that if they had parents that were gay in some way, they were lesser parents. Now I knew that to be an absolute untruth and fundamentally wrong. I knew that because I'd already seen the research on this. That research [00:57:30] is evident in proving that it's absolutely untrue. Gay parents are equally as good, if not better, than heterosexual parents. There is no evidence to prove the contrary that I've seen and I'm a scientist. It's my background, so I think it's really important that we establish that as a fact. And I think what you're doing with this conference and what you're doing in supporting the Marriage amendment bill is really vital to New Zealand. Something else that I think [00:58:00] is really important in terms of looking at homophobia. And what's going on is when we see the adverts on television. Now I'm fairly new to New Zealand. I've been here for five years. I love the country, really enjoying it. But I see adverts on television that talk about man control. I don't know what that is. Is that different to girl? Troll? What sort of troll are we talking about? You know, really, there is such a narrow definition of [00:58:30] what a bloke is in New Zealand. I think you need. It needs to be broadened, you know, speaking again from a scientific perspective, There are not two genders. There is a whole spectrum right across the board of gender identity, and every gender identity is just as valid as any other. And that is something that needs to be accepted by society and certainly something that should never be prejudiced against. So that was [00:59:00] the one thing that really got my goat. As a family, we sit down over breakfast, we sit down over dinner and we talk about things. So my wife and I sat down with our two daughters and we were talking about the school newsletter and a school newsletter. I don't know about you, but I sort of expect to see things like George did really well, at hockey. Or, you know, whoever did great at, um, getting a scholarship to Victoria University. Yay! Well done. I don't really expect to see keeping marriage sacred in a school newsletter. [00:59:30] Perhaps I should in a Catholic school newsletter. I certainly don't expect to see prejudice in a school newsletter. I certainly don't in a school that I teach want somebody representing that school. All right, They're saying it's their own opinion. But when you put it on school letterhead and you bash it out to every parent, what you're saying is this is the school community and this is the attitude of the school community. As a teacher, I [01:00:00] was really offended by that. My daughters and my wife were really offended by that because that is not the way that we feel. And that is not the way the majority of the teachers in that school feel. I talked to many of the teachers after I was suspended. Many of them contacted me with support. Most of them were really worried about coming forward and saying anything, [01:00:30] and I think something that really needs to be worked on by the PPT A. And I'd ask the PPT a to really look at this and I as well is that the atmosphere in schools and the authoritarian atmosphere. We talk a lot about the divide between teachers and students and how we must maintain a power dimension between the two. I'm the teacher. I stand at the front. You guys sit down there. I tell you, the way the world works, [01:01:00] it doesn't work like that. I learn as much from all of my students, probably more than I teach them. When I teach, I walk around a classroom. It seems really odd to me standing at the front of the building, I'm much more comfortable wandering around and talking to people. I think that mutual respect is what needs to happen in schools. Schools need to become open places not just in terms of sexual identity, but in terms of valuing [01:01:30] the students' opinions, giving them the right to have those opinions. Now, in the email that I got back from the principal after I wrote, I wrote him an email pretty much as soon as I've read the newsletter and had a chat with it with my family, and I said, You know, I think you need to withdraw this. This will offend an awful lot of the national tolerant community, let alone the gay, lesbian and transgender community. He came back to me and said, This is my opinion and I want to encourage [01:02:00] people to debate the issues around marriage. We encouraged debate, didn't we? Unfortunately, I don't think it encouraged the sort of debate that he was looking for, um, in terms of what he's done to me and the board that supported it. What they've tried to do is shut down that debate and the reason that I stood behind the students when the students wanted to have a protest and wear rainbow ribbons. We're not talking about throwing rocks here. We're [01:02:30] not talking about burning the school down. We're talking about wearing a rainbow ribbon. Yeah, a bit like wearing a daffodil, wearing a poppy wearing a conscience ribbon for breast cancer. I support that. I think kids that have a social conscience are the future of any country, and you shut that down at your peril. We need to encourage our kids to have a conscience. We need to encourage our kids to debate, [01:03:00] to form their own opinions, not just go with what we tell them, because we're not always right so that we need to have that debate. We need to encourage our Children to debate and our students to debate, and we should expect that that's what teachers do in a classroom. Even when I'm teaching science, I don't teach it as an absolute fact because I don't know if you will remember when you were at school. But science has changed. Yeah, but the facts are not the same anymore. Facts [01:03:30] are the world as we understand it now. In 20 years, that world is very different. So I think it's very important that we encourage debate. I think it's very important that schools are places and encourage debate. Now there's been a lot of talk about professional development for teachers. Um, I'd like to go one step before that and a a above that, and I'd like to propose professional development for principals and for senior management teams. Um, my experience with teachers is they're pretty good, actually. [01:04:00] You know, if you're a good teacher, you enjoy teaching you stay in a classroom because you've got great behaviour control and you get on really well with the kids and you take great pleasure in seeing the development of those students. If you're not such a good teacher, you're probably going to go off and and I'm not trying to insult everybody who does it. But you're gonna go off and you're gonna do higher degrees and you're gonna get senior management positions and you might end up a principal. Um, I'm not saying all of them have got bad behaviour management, and [01:04:30] they don't have that mutual relationship with kids, but certainly some of them possibly have a few problems. In my opinion, I think we need to get in there at the top. And I think I needs to get in there at the top of schools and the senior management team, and it needs to make damn sure that those schools are safe for everybody. Certainly in my classroom I would not really ever look around the classroom and think so. And so is Maori. So and so is Pakeha. So and so [01:05:00] is Pacifica. Ah, he might be gay. She might be a lesbian. I just taught kids. Yeah, they were all the same. My classrooms were emotionally safe places for people to be. They could say what they liked. I would cut students some slack. You know, we don't sweat the small stuff. We're there to actually help students to help them form their own opinions. And I think the one message that I'd like everybody to take [01:05:30] home from this is homophobia does exist in New Zealand. It's out there. I was really shocked when I saw it. I spent most of my life a little bit about me. Um, I started life as a cardiac research associate doing a PhD in Liverpool. Um, Bill Boat took off the sea for 25 years. Um, I decided a academia wasn't for me. I then retired and then went into teaching because I needed to keep my brain active. [01:06:00] It wasn't good for me to be doing nothing. I thought homophobia and those sort of prejudices were gone. But, you know, I'm a straight guy. I lead a fairly normal life, and it's a bit like when people say to me, Oh, you know, do you know that there's lots of drugs and everything going on here because I'm not involved in it. I don't see it when you become involved in it. The messages that I have had from other students and other teachers saying thank you for just [01:06:30] saying something because we're all too afraid to stand up and say something. Those messages are heartfelt, and it is so vital what you're doing so vital that you stand up and say something because there are so many people out there that need to hear it. Thank you very much. [01:07:00] Wow. I'm quite emotional, actually, about all of that. And thank you very much for coming down and joining us, Nigel, Um, [01:07:30] the next phase is really handing over to you, uh, and asking the questions of the panellist. We do ask that your, uh, questions are concise and to the point, and we do ask that you're polite and respectful of other people. After all, that's what we're here for is to be respectful and to be asking for equality. So we need to do that within our own ranks as well. So I have me down here, he's got the microphone [01:08:00] and I'll do the standing. I I'll do the, um uh, you know, making sure that you guys are doing your job and these guys are doing their job. We've got a micro frame for the palace here, so I'll hand it over and me is yours on. And I will just, um, take speaking order as well. So, uh, we'll go with ian first. Uh, yeah. Thanks for that. Everyone, uh, I just have a question for Nigel. Um, I liked what you said about, um, that [01:08:30] the problem is at the top. And, like, you know, with career ventures, we've got the crowd schools campaign. There are other similar related things around, like the schools, schools out and the quest alliances. Uh, and I think tomorrow it would be good to have some discussion about how to move forward with school stuff. Um, so it'd be good to have, uh, have your input, but, um, I just wanted to ask about I know there's a still you're still, uh, going, uh, doing a grievance process with the board. So I wanted to ask about that. And, um, if there's anything we can do to support that, first [01:09:00] of all, I'd just like to say thanks for all the support you've done again. It's just been amazing, you know? I mean, there was a point there. I was lying in bed when I got back from doing, you know, and we were sort of my wife and I were lying there at one or two o'clock in the morning, so I'd driven back from Auckland, and I was thinking, Oh, what have I done? You know, how did we end up doing this? And then, you know, we're sitting there and I was like, Well, glad I did. And that night I worked till about 3. 30 in the morning. I got up and I sat down on my computer and I [01:09:30] answered all the messages of support I could by 3. 30 I was sort of running out of steam. So many messages were coming in on Facebook from everybody in support. So what you've been doing is fantastic. First of all, and I would say that to you, to Tappy, to everybody that's really got involved with those Facebook groups, you know? Now, with social media, things happen so much faster. The time frame has gone from a press date to maybe a week or two. You know and things when things happen [01:10:00] to four or five minutes as things explode. And I think that continued presence is really important. So I thank you very much for that. What more can you do, where I'm at with the process now, just to sort of bring you up to date? We have a mediation hearing scheduled for the 12th when hopefully I'll be able to get a few more answers out of the board. I mean, those of you that have seen my Facebook page have been following it. You'll see that even when the Catholic media has asked the school [01:10:30] questions and asked the board questions, they've refused to answer them. So they're basically sticking their head in the sand, and they're not coming back with an answer. And I'd encourage all journalists to go to the school and try and get the other side of the story because I'd love to hear it. I really would. So I would love to have the school. I'm looking forward to the school at that mediation hearing. Um, unfortunately, that mediation hearing is absolutely confidential, so I cannot give any form of release out about that hearing and the results [01:11:00] of those mediation hearings generally are confidential as well. If it goes beyond that stage, then and I will be seeking reinstatement at that hearing, if it goes beyond that stage, it goes to the employment tribunal and then it's not confidential. Then I can actually hopefully get some answers to the questions. But I think the next stage is mediation and then we'll go on from there. But I think keeping up the pressure on the board is really important. Those letters, I mean, the number of parents who've written letters to the board. I've requested [01:11:30] all of that information under the information act so that I can read that and the minutes of the board meeting. But what you've done so far brilliant. Please, just keep it up. Let's keep the pressure on moving just over here to your left, just right behind you, right? Oh, I, I think, uh, popular culture is really more influential, Among other things. Uh, [01:12:00] so just for example, uh, to the teachers, is there any sort of evidence anecdotal evidence of, um, influence of programmes like glee having out characters and other programmes like that two out gay couples? I doubt it, Um And by saying that, uh, you know, there has been societal change over the last X number of years, [01:12:30] but the behaviours are still the behaviours are still the behaviours. And that's what we're talking about here and why. Actually, the need for going back to euro and all of that garbage needs to happen. That is, cultures need to be changed from the top within those organisations Was your question directed in terms of has the attitude of the students [01:13:00] changed or the teachers and the staff students? Absolutely. I mean, one thing I'd say about the students at the school that I was teaching in Pompeo is there was not really that I saw at all. And I believe that was also from Zach Trapp. I don't know if you saw the close up, but Zach was also on there an ex student and yes, you're going to get issues in a school. As with any difference in any teenager, you'll get it. But in general, I think what's happening [01:13:30] with popular culture and the fact that now you see a lot of individuals in popular culture, I think it's much more accepted and certainly the support I've received from all the students in the school has been amazing, and they really do support. I mean, I had a message from a gay student in the school, and what she said to me was, You know, I just feel so supported by everybody here. It's wonderful, except for a certain individual. So it's pretty [01:14:00] cool. I think it is working, but it's not changing the 55 60 year old people at the top who really aren't probably not watching it either. Kevin, um I kind of had a half question half comment about the impact of your struggle, Nigel, Um, and and and thank you for pursuing this and and making a big deal out of it. And not just like taking it lying down in terms of [01:14:30] all these other schools and the principals and the senior staff that have these incredibly backwards views that as a result of your your your willingness to stand up and be seen and be heard and to fight dismissal on the basis of I refuse to accept discrimination. Um, on other schools, like for being, uh will they now do you think, Will there will [01:15:00] there be schools. Now, do you think that will be too afraid to be openly bigoted as a result of your challenge? Um and I know that's a tough question. I. I ask, um I was involved a few years ago in a campaign in Dunedin about schools. They refuse to allow same sex couples to attend their school balls. Um, and yes. Ridiculous. Um, and and openly overt about it. Like, quite absurd. We made a big deal. We picked a couple of schools, Um and we put it through the papers and we put it on [01:15:30] the streets and we put it in, um TV um and we openly shamed them, and the next year we got no complaints. Um and I just wanted to know your your your feelings on that I do think Yeah. Just died I I again, I do think Yeah, it's certainly made a difference. I have a feeling that we've got different schools where we've got different issues. OK, I think [01:16:00] if you're in a large school where you've got a larger community, then probably you've already got more pressure on those senior staff to be more inclusive, I think where you've got a faith based school. I mean, remember I was teaching at a Catholic school you a mountain of Catholic doctrine that is sitting there, But I'm not an Catholic. Surprisingly enough, Even after all this, I'm not anti Catholic. I think that the values, [01:16:30] if they are espoused by Catholic schools, those Marist values one of them is tolerance. Well, come on, guys, show it. And I think they need to be held up to their own value system and made to obey that value system. Don't forget, these Catholic schools are integrated. Schoolss My salary as a teacher was paid by you guys, not by the Catholic Church. OK, yes, I agree to uphold the special character [01:17:00] of that school When I go and work there, that means that I don't openly oppose the Catholic Church's viewpoints. In other words, I would not. As a teacher, I'm sacked. Now I can I would not as a teacher stand up and say I support gay marriage, you know, Come on, let's get it there. Let's get sorted. That would not be appropriate. But there is nothing that I have read in Catholic doctrine that says that gay parents are lesser parents than the other parent. What amused [01:17:30] me was when, um, the one response I did read from the school where it said that, um, you know, the school always welcomes gay parents and gay students. They're like, um, any other student in the school. We welcome them into the school. It's not an exact quote. So please read the exact quote if you want to quote it. But at the same time, we're saying that, um, you know, the principal is saying that in my interpretation that gay parents are lesser parents. Well, that's a bit like me inviting you around for dinner. I sit [01:18:00] down and have dinner with all my friends in the living room, and I kick you out in the kitchen and say, Here's your plate, you know, it's It's not inclusiveness. Has it made a difference? I hope so, because this is 2012. We still need to be fighting these battles. But I thought we eliminated a lot of this 50 years ago, and I'm shocked that we're fighting these battles now. One good thing I would say about New Zealand and I've seen so far, and I thought it was really significant where we met last night [01:18:30] to be meeting in the upper chamber. That doesn't exist. Great. Isn't that fantastic? You know means you guys can change things and you can change them quite quickly. And I take my hat off to everybody who was speaking last night who's sticking their own neck out and that's you, Jan. That's everybody speaking last night to do that and Lisa as well. It's amazing because they are sticking their neck out, and they continue to need your support to do it. So well known guys. Cassie. Remembering, [01:19:00] remembering. Was it going? No. There we go, Um, going back to the big schools which have diversity Already. A hell of a lot of schools are in one school towns in rural New Zealand, which are very unsafe places for many anybody who is different and talking about [01:19:30] the one that I was at. Actually, 90% of the kids were great. It wasn't an issue for 90% of the parents. Having an out gay teacher in the town was not an issue, but the 10% can make it really unhealthy and really threatening, and and it's it's in those sorts of places that I all my, you know, even today, people who are thought to be gay or [01:20:00] known to be gay still get a hard time. I just, you know, not to be too depressing, but also to note that the homophobic bullying that happened at Hutt Valley High, which was absolutely extreme raping of students and homophobic bullying, happened incredibly recently. And the ombudsman's report [01:20:30] of that violence did not even consider homophobia. So actually, that is also part of the picture that we're dealing with, um, un unless you're connected and and listening to the issues or or knowing it, then actually it it doesn't come into people's minds. That's the ombudsman. It was a you know, it was clearly homophobic to anyone. [01:21:00] I might have any understanding. And of course, that wasn't the only case a few years ago, up in the East Coast east coast, and it was exactly the same sort of situation of rape of a student by other students. It can't be anything else but what it was. But I think that that these these conflicts and struggles do have an impact. [01:21:30] And I I'm I'm confident that what Nigel is, uh, is having the that impact of making other schools a bit more careful. Uh, I have no doubt at all that being public and making a fuss has a huge impact, and I think it's that impact that you can see appreciated here. Um, we don't underestimate the the the courage that that takes. [01:22:00] But we also have got to make a fuss and make a struggle. It's not. It's not actually enough to have sensible opinions and to talk to opinion leaders. It's not enough to argue with politicians. It's not enough to change laws. We have got to, in different ways duplicate the kinds of public struggles [01:22:30] that Nigel has now. It won't be the same way because we're not going to lose our job on this one. Probably. But you know, it's a matter of demonstrations. It's a matter of pickets. It's a matter of seeing abuses and standing up against them and making a fuss. It's a matter of making it too embarrassing to so OK, I've got five people on the list at the moment, so I've got 12345 [01:23:00] and we'll probably wrap up questions about not long after half past so I just add one thing to that role before we finish. I think there's two things that need to be done. First of all, I think what the Queer Avengers are doing is vital. And I think in those small rural towns as we were talking the other day on Facebook, I think what's really critical is that you get an organisation if you can't get it into the school. And believe me, Sydney tried with Pompeo and he didn't get a lot of success. It's difficult to get it into the school, get [01:23:30] it into the town around the school so that you can actually do it for two or three schools in that area. That's one thing that needs to be done because those kids need that support. They need to know somebody's there for them. You know, I wish I was back at Pompeo because the kids would know they could come and talk to me. It's not going to happen. I doubt very much, but that's what it needs. It needs somebody they can go to. The second thing we need to do is we need to get people going around the schools and talking about it [01:24:00] going to the staff meetings talking to the staff, explaining that this is a problem getting over that issue, you know? I mean, it was Jan who said it. There's no homosexuality in this school, you know? Come on, guys. Are you serious? In this day and age, are you really going with that belief? People need educating. They need to understand that the staff and the senior management, especially the senior management, need to take that on board. [01:24:30] Yeah, Yeah, in. Um, I just want to thank all the speakers for me here tonight. This has been really amazing, obviously, two points quickly. Um, I really have enjoyed as a youth worker listening to, um the perspective of people. I've been working with teachers and something that we don't hear as much about. So that's really positive. Also, I recognise, as Jen mentioned that the actual name [01:25:00] is an issue. Um, and the very start of the campaign I was a little bit concerned because I wasn't really aware to be able to name the which is, I think sometimes it's easy to just, um, not see the horse and talk about this kind of hard issues. So I'm really happy that we're having this talk here tonight, this song. But, um, my question is really in regard to because, um, we kind of touched on a little bit. Um, these big acts, um, is is what has happened on Nigel here. I do [01:25:30] feel like sometimes it, um it really pushes this prejudice under the carpet more. And I feel like they're overt and implicit homophobia and transphobia. That's one of the more difficult things to deal with. Being really obvious about something. It's easy because it's the the economics really difficult. Um, to deal with you can engage with something that has a that has a face that has an attack in some form. So, um, what I'm really interested in is whether or not any of you have any ideas about how to deal with and listen. Homophobia [01:26:00] that still goes on is still taking place at a very systemic level. And if you're having experiences, sorry, that's a big question. But, um, I thank you. That's, um, a really interesting question. Um, the my response to that would be about education. Really? And that's the kind of, um, it's about education of us. EEE even to the extent of us. You know, looking at our [01:26:30] own, um, our own homophobia and transphobia. But I one of the things that we are doing, um, is developing a diversity training. I mean, a number of people have talked about that. So we're doing that for our own delegates and our union organisers because they don't realise they're that they are being homophobic. And that may be, you know, covert, um, or it's it's underneath. You know, people just is not very clear. So I think [01:27:00] you really have to keep on and and Jan made the point that just don't accept that we've we've got, you know, we just because we got good items signed off that, um you know, we've done everything. We just have to keep on with this education. And that's why I think people like I mean, Bruce Mitchell stuff that she's doing is fantastic. And it really does push the boundaries. Um, I also echoing [01:27:30] that around the education, and it's one of another thing within refuge that part of the training of, um, the people working in refuges around, um, homophobia and and for me, it's also about a human rights analysis. And actually, I think we need to do more work in the country in terms of actually encouraging and giving people the opportunity to think about what are human rights and what does [01:28:00] that mean? Because I believe you know, oppressions are linked. And but people there aren't many spaces in our society for people to get to think about that and think about how their own experience of the world is impacted by the oppression that affects them directly or the oppression of other people and what that means for them. And so I think there's that. But there's, I mean, obviously, activism's [01:28:30] another thing. You know, education is one thing, but we also need structural change and we need to be organising. And that stuff only happens with organising. So yay! Queer event is, um and it really is a structural thing. Um, at the moment we're having treaty settlements happening. Just read the newspaper letters, the absolute vein [01:29:00] of racist, very thinly veiled. You don't have to go very far out of society to find misogynists who are happy to parade their, you know, prejudices all the time. That is, there's a whole heap of groups who are not your white heterosexual male who actually suffer varying forms despite the fact that [01:29:30] discrimination on all sorts of grounds has been outlawed. Um, and when we look at the American election just recently, you know they had voter registration years ago. But look what's happening. I think there's one thing we should expect from schools in terms of what you're saying to make sure that doesn't happen. And that is that school leadership should be standing up and making damn sure it doesn't happen and modelling behaviour that shows that it doesn't happen. We should not [01:30:00] expect that any form of school leadership encourages the other side of that viewpoint. So the role models that our kids see in schools should be role models that are tolerant should be role models that are open to diversity. And I think that's something in terms of teacher education that really needs to be there. We need to stop really thinking of it just in terms of culture. We need to think about it in a much broader scope, but we need to make sure that and [01:30:30] I would call on ER to do this in the Ministry of education. They should be making sure our kids are safe in school. And that means that educational leadership should be modelling that and making sure that their schools are safe. Shelly, um, I'll just have a Well, I guess the base of school Ireland [01:31:00] and a half hour. Um, we have college college in in, um in. And of course, I can tell you that I feel incredibly safe from us completely. Ignoring the high has been the very best form of out of the hospital. And I say [01:31:30] I never felt safe, and that's on someone who's just not being able to take care of yourself. Uh, here, I. I do feel safe and that you remember, um um, the theory of location. [01:32:00] And I think that sort of plays a part of some of the and see it we are finding on that I agree. We take up arms very quickly over issues of safe conscience. And what have you and and, for example, of this was an incident in Auckland where a property owner that defences property attacker has unfortunately killed him as a nation. [01:32:30] We throw our arms and and our business of tagging and we took it. We forced basically the government's hand to produce legislation to ban and have more, um, tagging. We already had a but this was a top issue and so we have the shape of the wall and all. Everybody in the society said [01:33:00] Wonderful. Well done you need and what happened? There's anybody see that it goes on. The same thing is about this legislation we have in the Human Rights Act pass as much legislation as you are. But is errors we were. Our responsibility is a good concept and we can't expect politicians to solve [01:33:30] all our problems. We have grown up people and we have responsibilities to our young people. We are learning people. We have our experiences that Children don't have. They come to us to be able to manage and handle these things. This gets back to the issue of leadership. It's not that have to demonstrate leadership. It was you, me and every other person who's 21 years now who has a responsibility to every other child [01:34:00] to make sure that they stay, that they grow up in a learning comfortable, safe, healthy environment. Word for that they were laying ourselves and our country and our people down, and that's not possible. I would agree with you there, Shelley. I think, really, what's important. You know, you would feel really comfortable with the kids at Bomb Beer, Catholic College. They're lovely kids, the kids that were really supporting this, [01:34:30] and I think that's something we need to understand. In many cases, it's not the kids that are the issue, and it's it's that sort of middle ground of the middle age to a certain extent, and they're the people we need to be addressing. Yes, we do get homophobia with kids and the bullying. But if they're in an atmosphere where that's unacceptable and their peers see that as unacceptable, it isn't going to happen if it's seen as an where it's acceptable. I mean, there was a comment [01:35:00] that I read on the report that was written at the board about me, which was I left it to the school leadership to sort out this problem about the demonstration. You know, the student leadership, so that's effectively saying that the student leadership is going to encourage this to go away and you know, one of the students had a go at the girl that set up the protest. Now it's that sort of modelling that does the damage. What we really need is to be encouraging [01:35:30] those kids and saying, You know what? You are as a teenager as a year 10 as a year 11 student, by doing something like this, you have my respect. You're an admirable individual. You may only be 14, 15, 16. But, hey, you've got a social conscience that belongs to somebody who should be in Parliament. So well done, Thomas. We are asking that maybe if you can speak into the microphone because some [01:36:00] of us can't hear. So, hi, I'm a youth worker as well. Um, and something I've noticed with my young people is that a lot of them are still really, really scared. And so, while that the issue has kind of gotten better, the big problem I see is that even though the issue has gotten better, the majority the majority, which is all good, is silent. And that's the loud minority, which is hating on everyone that they hear. And so I have a youth, you know, [01:36:30] a gay identifying youth and who's really scared to come out even though no reason to be that way. You know he's got such a positive support system, but it's that that really loud minority that really scares him. And he he's worried that it's going to ruin his chances of getting through high school. So it's just being, you know, the loud majority rather than the silent majority supporting real quietly. We've got to, like, actually say Hey, you know, this [01:37:00] is an issue and we've got to talk about it so just kind of that because everyone's said that, Yeah, OK, over here, even speak loud enough as a teacher, I'm quite used to projecting, Um, Hut Valley High School has a, um, has a bit of a history of this because in the nineties they had a number of teachers [01:37:30] who were attacked. I believe by if I my memory serves me correctly by principal. And in fact, the PPT a Nigel ought to have that information, and you ought to be able to look at what actually happened. I worked in a school further up the valley with a Salvation Army principal who had been opposed to homosexual law reform bill, but in fact it was a number of gay staff. We had a number of gay staff, um, at the school and the staff was solidly behind [01:38:00] and demanded that a statement was put out by the school support the teachers who were being penalised at Hutt Valley High School. And I think that's something that probably needs to be able to be done in your case to have other schools. Are principals, the board of trustees of other schools to come out and make a statement and say This is unacceptable and I think it's really important not to put all schools into the same category. There are liberal schools in New Zealand who [01:38:30] are supportive and do provide as not a totally safe but a much, much safer school. And it's not just country schools or schools in small regions that suffer from this. In Wellington, there are a number of schools who have, um probably an anti, uh, prejudice policies anti-bullying. And yet a number of those students find their way to the school I currently teach [01:39:00] at because they are bullied. They don't stay at their school, so it's not good enough PPT a for arrow to tick boxes that there's a policy it's not good enough for, um, for a school to be passed because it's got a policy. It's actually got to look at real practise, and that's much harder to do. It means they've really got to talk to the students and the staff as to what really [01:39:30] goes on, because there often is a mismatch between the leadership and of the school and the teachers and the students. Um, I also want to make a point to Nigel that I don't know what the, um ST A um, the, um, a Board of Trustees Organisation. You've got a staff rep on your board. What have they pulled in called in the ST? A. They should be at looking at that because I think it's important [01:40:00] to challenge that. And I think we need to be aware that charter schools are a partnership. Schools they called are a real threat for New Zealand. It's a policy of this government, and they are schools who don't have to follow the curriculum, don't have to employ qualified teachers, are able to they won't be required to have anti-bullying policies. They're not going to be inspected, I suspect by arrow. So [01:40:30] what's going to happen there. And the thing is that we need to fight the establishment of those schools now before they're in place, rather than try and do a rear guard fight after they're in place. And I don't care if it's a church school or a non churchch charter school that's being set up. They should be stopped. We want quality state education. Not, um, this other nonsense. [01:41:00] I still have a few hands up, but I will have to cut off at 8. 30. So I will try to get through you all. So if you can be quick, um, yeah. Sorry. OK, thank you. Um, I just have a quick statement. Um, I'm an early childhood teacher, [01:41:30] and I often see Children. Um, having some interesting views on sexuality. Um, their view of sexuality is formed quite early, As young as sort of two years old. Um, and I, I believe personally that this is, um, due to media and other things that they see in society. I don't think that, um, the queer community is visible enough to Children, and they don't see other forms of sexuality enough. And so [01:42:00] they form these views of society That are male and female, and then that evolves into homophobia. So I suppose what I'm saying is that, um, high school is a great place to be doing education about sexuality, but also, um, primary and early childhood should probably have that, too, as well as, um I don't know what you would do about the media, but restricting or altering advertisements to not be so heteronormative, um, and damaging to Children's views [01:42:30] of sexuality. I blame Disney. Um, my little sister, uh, seen photos of me and my partner, Um and she said, Why are you kissing the other man? You know, she's so used to princes and princesses. So yeah, I'd like to say, but, uh, we have over here. [01:43:00] Hi. Um, I was trying to think in terms of structural solutions for these things because I mean, what we need is a kind of education about queer sexuality, institutionalising schools and, you know, stuff institutionalising healthcare. I mean, we're not going to get it with this government. You've got the national party who's downright hostile to some queer issues and then the Labour Party, who are you know, they they're OK on some, but largely indifferent on others. [01:43:30] I mean, I've admired the work that parties like the greens have done over the past couple of years. Although I kind of wonder what would happen if the Greens became a dominant party. I suspect there would be kind of a more serious move. Um, so under the system of M MP, I don't really think that getting change is going to work particularly fast. I was kind of wondering what people thought about potential for more further electoral reform so we [01:44:00] can get a more proportional system and enable, you know, queer positive policy. Three girls. I like that idea. Um, actually, I'm just I don't know about that, but I But I don't. I think politicians do what people make them do, so you know, not to fob it off and say, no, we're not responsible because we [01:44:30] we need to be and and I certainly will. You know, do what I can try and do what I can to claim that, but it is. I mean, I think regardless of the system, it comes back to community organising. It comes back to the stuff that you're good at to doing more of it. I that's Yeah, and I'm I'm just gonna pick up the in response to that about charter schools because I think it's actually about noise. And I think [01:45:00] there is an opportunity to make noise that, uh, we have to make and respond on charter schools, which is such a dangerous thing. So there are submissions. And even though the parliamentary process, we feel very disillusioned by at the moment, um, noise is really important and activism, and that does make a difference. So I haven't answered your question, but I did want to pick up the point about the charter schools and responding on that. [01:45:30] And although M MP isn't perfect, I think the visibility of out gay and lesbian MP S the number of women in Parliament now, in terms of society, changing the face of who rules this is changing and to actually get any of them to do anything is what you know. We've got to make them do it. I'd actually say it's moving quite quickly in New Zealand, you know, I. I take [01:46:00] my hat off to New Zealand in terms of what it's achieved. I know it's never going to move fast enough, and it's a shame that we can't make it move quicker, But I do think you've got some incredible progress going on. I think what's really important is to celebrate that progress. Normalise that progress so that the General Population Zealand, which I think is very largely supportive, sees it as progress that's happening and then gets on board and moves with it. If you emphasise, the positive people will follow you. And I think if you can do that in the [01:46:30] communities, you'll go a long way with it. So I think it's going well and I would keep pushing hard. So good luck with it. And final question. Hey, I'll try and make it quick. Um, so we've talked a lot about language tonight and I do research and conversation analysis. So I think language is really important. Um, one, safe space rule is [01:47:00] using gender neutral language. So I was wondering if the PPT A could push for having that kind of rule institutionalised like having a teacher having to use my partner even if they're a straight person. Um, yeah, yeah. I don't think I can speak for the union on this. Um um, because I haven't got that brief. But, um I mean, the issue you're talking [01:47:30] about is one of the quality of initial teacher education. The sort of issue you're talking about is the sort of school leadership that happens and us trying to get into schools to say you need to challenge. That's gay. A number of schools are welcoming, but you know, there is that view of What the hell are you all bleating on about? There's nothing wrong with our place. Um, I'm [01:48:00] not sexist. I'm not racist. I'm not homophobic. I just talk about my wife and kids all the time. Um, but it happens amongst our colleagues. I mean, I remember talking to someone who who was a teaching colleague a while ago about, um, he said, Oh, have you got a partner? And I said, Yeah, Dominique And he said, Dominique and I said, Domino and he said, [01:48:30] Oh, are you gay? You know, assumptions are assumptions, I think certainly from my perspective and the way that I would talk to my students, I think if you show your students respect, you get that back and it's not I mean again. I would say, Don't sweat the small stuff. I understand where you're coming from in terms of language, but I think what's really important is that respect. And if they feel safe in your classroom and they feel [01:49:00] respected, then the language becomes far less of an issue because it's a warm, encompassing feeling, and I think that's what we're trying to generate in classrooms. I think another issue is hard to deal with, and I think it's another one that the government will need to look at and I doubt very much it will be. This government is the whole local boards thing where basically, you've got a board controlling a school and certainly what I saw where you've got [01:49:30] basically a board that has very little power because we've got four proprietors, representatives from the Catholic Church. We've got four parent representatives who don't want to jeopardise their own kids in the school. So whilst I think it's a terrific initiative to have local control, I'm very much for devolved government. It's a great idea. You need to actually put structures in place to make sure that it's got some teeth, because otherwise it just becomes a puppet [01:50:00] that can be moved by the principal or by somebody else. So I think there's a few things to consider. Um, I really like your question. I just going to respond by saying somebody said it that we need to live by assume, assume nothing. Which is the words of Rebecca Swan in that book, um called Assume nothing. And so that's a challenge to us all. But it's a challenge. We can, um, throw out to others, um, to [01:50:30] and live by Assume nothing. OK, thank you. Panel. I guess, um, we'll just maybe give you the opportunity to have any final remarks separate building. I just want to say that I think that society and institutions, they're uneven. There are pockets which are more homophobic and pockets which are less. [01:51:00] But on the whole, our governments, our our, um uh, schools, our culture reflects us, reflects the population. And it's only by changing that that we can change the institutions that ultimately the little fiddling is necessary. But on its [01:51:30] own, it's not the point. It's the question of using the little fiddling as a lever for massive change. The example that I use all the time is that the 85 86 homosexual law reform about the decriminalisation of homosexuality was not really about the decriminalisation of homosexuality at all. It was a a about about a minor little cultural revolution in New Zealand and that the [01:52:00] that little reform was the opportunity for what was important was the screaming rage of thousands of gay men and women in New Zealand and their supporters. That said, Enough, we've got to change things. It was the radical activism which people who weren't very radical or very activist felt necessary to do in all the circumstances. And what we've got to do [01:52:30] is yes, try to influence this board or that board or this decision or that decision, but as much as possible, use those opportunities as levers for a much larger cultural change, which is necessary. I think I'm gonna leave you just with a couple of words, make noise and keep making noise. The squeaky hinge gets the oil. Just get out there and make that noise. [01:53:00] And it's also very evident that there are a number of organisations across the whole of society who are working for the change, even if they're not visible. Did I nice? Um, yeah, for me. That Obviously tonight I've heard you know that change. We've made progress in certain areas and at the base. There's a certain kind [01:53:30] of change happening, but it's not fast enough. There's a lot more to be done, and and thinking it's all done is actually just going to allow what's wrong to feed and grow. So, um, I've been really thankful for this conversation in terms of I guess, sharpening my thinking, um, and focus. And, um, I look forward to hopefully having a chance to be able to respond [01:54:00] to your rage and do what I can in the place where I work. Um, but loving the work that you're all doing to, you know, to push more to happen. And I guess my final remarks on this issue is that I'm very glad that we've actually had this discussion. It's really, um, important. Um, it was actually a touching story that we had at the start of our public meetings. Well, towards the beginning, uh, it [01:54:30] was really sad, moving and touching that really drove home that we really needed to make sure we had this discussion because marriage equality has raised this discussion. There are people out there at home who are reading the forums, the blogs and all of that and who are struggling with the homophobia that this naturally occurs. And we need to make sure we're there for them as well. Uh, you know, these people are behind the screen, They're not here. So we need to make sure that [01:55:00] we when we are blogging, that we're doing it in a responsible way. And we're doing it in a positive way, especially Facebook. Too many of the young people are seeing that and feeling so bashed up about their gender identity that we need to make sure that we are doing what we can do in a positive and accepting way. And that is really why we are having this discussion, every press release we do. We try to have that sort of inclusiveness that if they need help, they can go to these [01:55:30] revenue avenues to make sure that they can get that help. And I guess my thoughts on this issue was, you know, one of the things that I'm most proud of, and when I walk down the street and I'm with my partner, who's over here, he's been such a great support. Um, we walk down the street holding hands, you know, and people come up to us and you're like, you know, thank you. Um, you're so brave. Um, you know, we've never had one negative comment, so making it normal for everybody, [01:56:00] you know, uh, making it so that it's accepting, you know, seeing us, me and my partner on the street holding hands is one thing that is giving other people strengths. And that, for me, has been great as being a leader, you know, in that change, you know, PD a has not done enough. Um, thank you to our hosts. Uh, Saint Andrews on the terrace. Thank you, Margaret, for letting us have this venue. It's a great venue. Um, to have these discussions inside of a church [01:56:30] is something incredible. I would never have thought about 10 years ago. Um, and thankfully, uh, finally thank you for tuning up. You know, otherwise we'd be talking to ourselves, but thank you again to the panellists. A round of applause for you, please.

IRN: 687
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/marriage_equality_conference_nigel_studdart.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004084
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089378
TITLE: Nigel Studdart - Marriage Equality Conference
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Nigel Studdart
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Close Up (television); Community Law (Wellington); Louisa Wall; Marriage Equality Conference (2012); Nigel Studdart; Northland; Pompallier Catholic College; Richard Stanton; TVNZ (Television New Zealand); church; discrimination; employment; family; free speech; human rights; marriage; marriage equality; media; parenting; queer straight alliance (QSA); religion; school; suicide; teaching; television; transcript online; youth
DATE: 1 December 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Community House/Press Hall, 80 Willis Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Nigel Studdart talks about the impact of losing his teaching position at Pompallier Catholic College during the Marriage Equality debate. This interview was recorded during the Marriage Equality Conference held at Community House in Wellington. The transcript of this podcast was generously sponsored by James Barron.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My background is I started out as a cardiac research scientist back in Liverpool. I've got an honours degree in science, and I was in the middle of the PhD when I took off sailing and left for 20 years and emigrated to New Zealand five years ago. Um went back into teaching and was teaching at a Catholic school. I teach science, I teach chemistry and I teach biology. Um, the incident occurred when the principal of the school, Richard Stanton, wrote [00:00:30] a newsletter, um entitled Keeping marriage sacred. Um, the Catholic school has a right to, under Catholic doctrine to have an opinion on marriage. I didn't argue with that opinion on marriage. I disagree with it, but that's my personal opinion. And I would not have tried to in any way influence the school's opinion where I believe the principal went too far in my opinion, was when he extended that argument in [00:01:00] terms of gay parents and what he in effect said there was that gay parents were in some way less a parents than any other form of parent. Now, as a teacher with, um, students that I knew had gay parents and also with gay students in the school. For me, that was fundamentally wrong. It was also a case of free speech for my students. I didn't get involved in it. At first. I got involved in it as as it developed when he [00:01:30] had, in effect, said to me in an email that he wanted to encourage discussion about this. But when the discussion was not going in the way in the direction that he wanted to go in, he then chose to try and shut that discussion down. Now, if we do one thing in a school and one thing, we must do well, surely it's teaching our Children to have an opinion and to question an opinion and to engage in constructive debate regardless of your religious, ethical or moral [00:02:00] beliefs. I believe everybody has a right to that debate, and I think what the school was doing there from my opinion, was shutting that debate down. And to me it's fundamentally wrong. That then, of course, occurred the week before the, um, first vote on Luisa's bill, and as a result, I mean, it was it was very naive of them, I think, to publish that in a newsletter on the Friday the week before the bill and not really expect that there would be publicity. He then went ahead and suspended me. Um, when [00:02:30] the students were planning a protest at the school assembly, they were planning a protest to wear a rainbow ribbon at the school assembly in support of other students again. To me, that seemed like a very good idea in that it was showing an inclusiveness. Now the school is a Marist school, and one of the fundamental, um, ideas of that school is tolerance. So to me, the students were showing incredible Marist values, and they were showing, um, a real How can I put it, [00:03:00] um, empathy almost beyond their age, and that they were actually really welcoming students into the school and gay parents, And I thought to actually take that away was something that was very wrong. What the rainbow ribbon symbolised to me and what it symbolised to the students was support for those gay students and gay parents. But more than that, if we look at the rainbow, it's made up of seven colours. White light comes from those seven colours. Each colour is critical to a contribution to that light [00:03:30] now, just as every race and every creed contributes to our society, so does every sexual, gender and transgender contribute to our society Without those colours, we do not have white light without light. We have no transparency. And without transparency we can't see what's going on in the world. And I think that openness to truth is the way that New Zealand education needs to go. I what? What I find quite amazing is the second newsletter he wrote was one [00:04:00] which was the legit, which was to love the truth. Well, to me, surely this is loving the truth, everybody's truth and listening to everybody's truth and giving them the opportunity for personal expression. This situation created quite a lot of media attention, both locally and nationally. What impact did that have on you? Um, quite a large impact. I mean, again, it was a It was a real explosion of attention. Um, it had started when, um, my [00:04:30] daughters had contacted the media and as had other students in the school, I was actually phoned for permission for, uh, one of my daughters to appear on close up. Um, by that stage, it had got quite frightening for many of the students, just in terms of all the attention. But also, they were worried about repercussions at the school. When I was then suspended on that morning, uh, which was the morning that I appeared on close up. I then decided that I would go on close up and appear [00:05:00] because I knew that the students were afraid to do so. And they didn't want to put themselves in a situation where they could possibly face some victimisation from anybody either other students or anybody else. So I think it was important that their voice was heard and that was the only way I could see of doing it. Um, I must admit, I didn't give it a huge amount of thought before I did it. Um, I just knew it was the right thing to do. And sometimes I believe we have to go with that. We have to go away [00:05:30] from what we should do or what we shouldn't do and just fundamentally bring things down to. Is this the right thing to do, or is it the wrong thing to do for me to support those students as their teacher was fundamentally my job above any other. What effect did that immediate attention have on on on you in your life? Um, in many ways. Positive effects. I had incredible support from the gay and lesbian transgender community. Lots of people [00:06:00] contacting me some real heartfelt messages. Um, from people who'd been in Catholic schools and other schools and their teachers have been afraid to say something. And they felt excluded. They felt isolated. And I think it gave a lot of people strength that somebody had been prepared to say something. You know, I. I didn't even really think all that through. Um, my family were incredibly proud of me for doing it, and I think it's strengthened our bond as a family. We're the sort of family [00:06:30] who sits down to dinner every night, sits down to breakfast and we talk. And this whole situation arose from a family discussion. I'd got home on the Friday evening and we were chatting as a family about this and we'd read the school newsletter and we were all appalled, you know? I mean, we're a fairly liberal family. I've travelled all over the world. My wife is a midwife, used to working with all sorts of different communities, and my kids are really sort of open to ideas. So it wasn't just me, it was my family. [00:07:00] And this was an initiative from all of us. And as a result, whilst it has had some financial impact, obviously on my family and that I lost my job over it, um, which is is quite saddening, you know, it also had an impact in terms of the fact that I was on a scholarship, which means I may yet have to pay that scholarship back in terms of teacher education, uh, in terms of my registration as a teacher, because I'm at the end of a two year programme and my knowledge of the principal is unlikely to be signing off on my provisional registration [00:07:30] at this point. So quite a lot of impacts in that way. But as a family, I think we're stronger for it, and I'm proud of what I did, and I think it's something that had to be done. It comes back to the Wikileaks things, doesn't it? You know, with people like Julian Assange, and I think it's critical that we galvanise and we support the whistleblower in society because ultimately there is nothing that should happen in a school or a classroom, excluding [00:08:00] personal or private issues for students, which should not be open to public scrutiny or question. And I think to have this sort of newsletter that was, to my mind certainly just wrong and should not be there. It may be, uh, Richard Stanton's personal opinion, and if it is, well, he's entitled to it, just like I'm entitled to my personal opinion. But I do not believe that a school newsletter is the place to put it. The emotional [00:08:30] safety of the students in that school, let alone the physical safety of their students in that school, mean that we have to be all inclusive. As a Catholic school, it accepts non Catholic students. It's an integrated school. It's funded by the taxpayer. The buildings are funded sure by the proprietor, which is a Catholic church. But my salary as a teacher was paid for by the taxpayer. We have a responsibility to all of those students, not just to the Catholic students, but especially to the Catholic [00:09:00] students and their special character. But we have a responsibility to be honest, and transparent with all of those students prior to this incident, were there things like a queer threat alliance at the school or anything? Where that that gay has been transgender students were were kind of open up. No, no. Um I mean, the other chap who appeared on the close up programme, Zach Trap. Uh, really nice guy, I think addressed that to a certain extent that yes, there was a little bit of prejudice, but no more than you would expect in any high school. Anybody [00:09:30] who is slightly different in any way you remember. I'm sure what it was like being a teenager. Everybody wants to be exactly the same. And if you're ever so slightly different in any way, you try and hide it. You know? No, there wasn't a Queer Straight Alliance, and up until that point, I would have said the school was a really inclusive place. You know, the staff there are are superb. They really are. They're excellent. I think what's happened has polarised the school, and I think that's not a good thing. Um, I think now the school needs a queer straight alliance, [00:10:00] and I think it needs that. So that the students are supported because whenever you get a division like this before that, really, it was a very minor issue in the school. I found it a very friendly school to work in superb teachers. The students were I mean, if you look at the Facebook pages that came up at that time, this was the students supporting other students. It wasn't the students victimising or bullying other students. This is students saying, No, I am not gonna sign up to any [00:10:30] form of prejudice. So if anything, I'd say it's the opposite that you know, The support for gay and queer students in that school was really good from the other students and from many, many of the staff. I think what happened with Richard Stanton's newsletter is he polarised the school. Once you get that degree of polarisation, then inevitably, when you start pushing people out to the polls, you end up with, um, serious issues in terms of trying to bring them back together again so you can raise discussion, [00:11:00] and I think that's what needs to happen. Now. You need some healing to try and bring back and raise discussion. To my knowledge that has not happened yet. What about reaction from other staff? What? What? What what's been the interaction between other staff in New York since great? I had no problem with other staff. Um, I've had contact with many, many of the staff who've been incredibly supportive. Um, many of them are very, um, how can I put it worried, Very nervous of losing their job. I mean, when you see what's happened to me, [00:11:30] you know, I've had several staff say to me, Well, I, I I'll be next because, you know, I I've always been with you on things like this, and I think there's definitely an atmosphere there that needs to be addressed because it is not healthy to have a situation where you've got this form of authoritarian dominance, which, um, certainly, in my opinion, that authoritarian dominance is not a healthy or constructive atmosphere. To have it should be a cohesive whole where people talk to each other where [00:12:00] people support each other. I know you know. Several teachers have said to me they don't go to the staff room. They're staying in their resource areas. They, they they're staying away from coming together. It's coming to the end of the school year. Next week is the end of the school year. Um, I was told a week or so ago that currently nine teachers are leaving that school. I see there's five adverts on the Education Gazette. There's 39 staff in the school, so even at the lowest estimate of five, that is a significant [00:12:30] percentage of staff that are leaving the school. That's not healthy, and it's a great shame at the highest estimate. It's We're getting on close for what, you know, a quarter of the staff that will be changing. And this is in a time when finding a job as a teacher is not easy. I mean, for me looking for another job. I'm looking at having to drive, perhaps at the next term, at least an hour each end of the day to get to another job, to be able to teach just because there are not the jobs available at present, just as the economy itself is, um, in difficulties [00:13:00] and in terms of contact with the students. Have you had much contact with them? Oh, yeah, I've been teaching them. I mean, this happened, you know, if we come back to the actual fundamental job of a school, it's to educate people and to help turn them out to rounded human beings who are tolerant, kind, just nice people. Yeah, people we want in society. This happens seven weeks or thereabouts. Before the final exams, I was the teacher in charge of chemistry. Um, there are three teachers, four teachers that there were in the science [00:13:30] department at that time. I was one of two that had any experience of teaching NCAA before. So two teachers had been hired the previous year who hadn't taught NC a senior sciences before. So we got a serious impact on the science department by suspending a science teacher at that point. So I had a year 13 chemistry class a year, 12 chemistry class a year, 11 science class, teaching level one plus my year 10 class, and I was accelerating to level one. So a lot of students preparing for exams. [00:14:00] So, yes, I've had a lot of contact with students because I've been teaching them at my house, doing private tutorials for their parents, bringing to the house so that I could help prepare them for the exams I started doing that for nothing, just for free in town after school and a local business LJ hooker in actually donated a building for me to use to do it in the centre of town. Um, but then I had when I was after, I got a letter from the board stating that I was not allowed to have any contact with students during my suspension in effect, and [00:14:30] it could be seen as threatening behaviour. I had to stop doing that. Once I was fired by the school, I immediately started doing it again, Um, just to help students. And then I made a small charge just to cover my costs in doing it. But hopefully I mean the letters that I've had from parents and the support I've had from parents. It's been amazing, incredible support from parents, a lot of people very unhappy with the Pompeo Catholic College Board right now, and I think they need to address that. I've asked under the [00:15:00] Freedom of Information Act to get the board minutes from the meetings, and I've asked the union to also ask for all the letters that they've received from parents in terms of their you know, both for and against. Just so we can have a look at the whole thing in the round and see, Is the board currently serving the interests of Pompeo Catholic College? Just finally, if you were to reflect back on this whole experience and you were to try and [00:15:30] impart a message to your students and students in other schools, what would that be? Speak up. Don't ever let anybody tell you you have no right to an opinion. And I think that is probably the most fundamental thing that we're discussing here. The right to everybody to free speech. And I know that seems like we should be saying this back in the fifties or the sixties. You know, I thought I thought we fought all these battles. I really did. But even today that exists, even today [00:16:00] we have people afraid to speak up, especially teachers. You know, I think we've got teachers who basically are told that they must follow what the principal says regardless, When this happened, I went to the principal. I went to his deputy. I went to the secretary for the board of the um, staff representative of the Board of trustees. I've got actually nowhere with any of them. And then I supported the students in what they were doing. My message to every student out there and every teacher out there is Follow your conscience. Follow your own [00:16:30] ethical code, and, if necessary, speak up. You must speak up because if we look at the youth suicide rate, and in particular, the suicide rate in Northland is is just horrendous. But as that applies, I think today we heard in the conference that that can be running at 89, 10 times the normal youth suicide rate. If you save one life by speaking up, well, forget everything else. You've done the right thing.

IRN: 691
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/marriage_equality_conference_human_rights.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004083
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089377
TITLE: Marriage, Adoption and Human Rights - Marriage Equality Conference
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Kevin Hague
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Adoption Act (1955); Anti Bigot Committee (formerly the Alliance for Justice); Aotearoa New Zealand; Bill of Rights Act (1990); Community Law (Wellington); Convention on the Rights of the Child (1990); Declaration on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women (1967); Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples (2007); Eleanor Roosevelt; HIV / AIDS; Human Rights Act (1993); International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (1976); International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (1976); Jacinda Ardern; Jacqueline Horn; Jane Chetwynd; Jim Whitman; Joseph Habgood; Katherine O'Regan; Kevin Hague; Marriage Equality Conference (2012); Murray Riches; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Ottawa Charter for Health Promotion (1986); Parliament buildings; Richard Flinn; Tim Barnett; Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948); Vern Keller; Wellington; Yogyakarta Principles (2006); adoption; alcohol and drug abuse; children; church; discrimination; equality; gender identity; health; homophobia; human rights; indigenous rights; isolation; law; marriage; marriage equality; msm; politics; religion; safe sex; self esteem; sex education; sexuality; transphobia; youth
DATE: 1 December 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Community House/Press Hall, 80 Willis Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Kevin Hague MP talks about the history of human rights legislation - internationally and in New Zealand. This session was recorded during the Marriage Equality Conference held at Community House in Wellington.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh um it was quite weird, uh, being at the forum last night, it was who Who was there last night? And most, most people, But so we had, um, on the on the stage Fran Wild, Catherine O'Regan, Tim Barnett and and Louisa. And of course, I'm working [00:00:30] with with Lewis on on this campaign. But I, um I was involved in homosexual law reform, sort of being led by Fran Wild. And I was my particular group was, uh it was the anti bigger committee, and and, um ABC It was easy in in Auckland. And actually, one of one of the particular things that that that we worked on was a guy called Richard Flynn, who was a pastor in a reformed church who believed that, [00:01:00] uh, rather than, um being allowed to have sex legally, we should instead be put to death. Um, so So we're sort of that's that was kind of one of the spurs to action. But then what I'm gonna talk to you today about actually relates a lot to the work that I did with Catherine. Because at that time, uh, I was working for the New Zealand AIDS Foundation and Uh, and we We worked very closely with Catherine's office, [00:01:30] uh, to achieve that change to the human rights, uh, to the Human Rights Act. Um, and interestingly, one of the people who worked for me at that time was Tim Barnett, who, uh, who wrote a couple of reports was he just arrived from from Britain and was kind of saying, What can I do to help? And And we said, OK, well, there are There are two groups that we're worried about who might get exemptions from [00:02:00] the Human Rights Act. And they are the police and the armed forces. Uh, and so, uh, Tim, we commissioned to write reports, looking at all of the international evidence and precedents so that we could mount effective arguments to stop the police and armed forces getting those exemptions. So hearing about for those who were there last night, hearing about the situation in the military was also another thread through the cell phone. Um, [00:02:30] right, I'm very open to talking about whatever you want to hear about or or talk about. But what I have in mind to talk about in this session is, uh, a a few things. One is, uh, human rights or the the human rights framework and how that relates from the international sphere down to New Zealand. The second thing is the thing that that might seem like it's not really about human rights, and that's actually public [00:03:00] health. But I intend to demonstrate how these two things are related. And then I want to talk about their relationship to both marriage equality and to adoption. So that's my basic plan. Um, if there are particular things you want me to hit on the way, say so now or, you know, pipe up any time during the session. Yes. I, I quite been quite interested to look at, um, [00:03:30] where we are in the in the not so much the hierarchy of human rights systems, but that look at, um, strengthening human rights and making them much less subservient to, um, to and and less about discrimination, actually, as well. Um, it's not that discrimination isn't important, but it doesn't seem to be, um, the kind of transcendent, if you like human rights framework in New Zealand. [00:04:00] Um, and we don't include privacy in it either. Even, um, which I think is AAA. You know, a very important absence, Really. It seems so many other things seem to depend on privacy. Actually, the sort of the judgments about our freedoms really are our literally freedoms to do what we want in private frequently. I mean, if that's not the only damage in privacy, but, um, that's that's correct. Um, I know, I know. We can hit that on the way. So, [00:04:30] Joseph, um, it would be kind of interesting to hear your opinion on whether, um, whether the inclusion of gender gender entity into the, um, Human Rights Act as prohibited grounds of discrimination is actually like a really, really useful thing or whether you think that actually does do that in other ways. Yep. Oh, sorry. And also, if you think that, um, marriage celebrates who refuse to marry couples on the basis of their sexual orientation in important exercise, endeavour in [00:05:00] religion is unjustified. Discrimination against them on that government without giving a legal opinion, of course. Yeah. OK, well, that's good. If if there are other things that crop up as we go along, just say so. Um, the human Rights Commission, if they were giving the session, probably would start with uh, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights because actually, human rights [00:05:30] law in New Zealand comes from that. And that's, um, that was from 1948 was when the Universal Declaration was was, uh was passed, um, and started to become international law and that, um, if you think about that time 1948 is that's in the immediate aftermath of the Second World War. And so this this idea that every human being, um, is [00:06:00] born with some fundamental and inalienable rights and freedoms, regardless of what country in the world they're they're born into or any other aspect aspect of them was was an idea that that was kind of a very, very strong expression of of those times and in particular, what the drafters were were [00:06:30] concerned about was how how those would play out at at a a very personal kind of level. Uh, there's there's a very interesting dialogue around around collective rights versus individual rights to what extent is a person you know, a sovereign individual as opposed to being part of a wider, wider collective. But the the human rights law [00:07:00] is very much in that that mode of of an individual perspective. Um, Eleanor Roosevelt was, um, really instrumental character in in developing the UN declaration and one of the things that she said in kind of response to What are these? Human rights? Um, was, uh, I remember it. Right. Uh, where [00:07:30] after all, do universal human rights begin in small places close to home are so small and so close that they cannot be seen on any map of the world. Yet they are the world of the individual person, the neighbourhood he lives in the school or college. He attends the factory, farm or office where he works. These are the places where every man, woman and [00:08:00] child seeks equal justice, equal dignity and equal opportunity without discrimination. And that's that's kind of the basis. That's that's what the Universal Declaration set out to do since 1948. The, um, there's There was a lot of buy in to the Universal Declaration by states around the world, Um, but not necessarily translation [00:08:30] into into their own individual state laws, and that came later on. So if you if you have the, um, Universal Declaration of Human Rights, that's, um 1948. They It wasn't until I guess the late 19 sixties that that there was a lot more thought at an international level [00:09:00] about translating that into into more precise rights. And in 1976 I think it was We got two different instruments. Uh, one is the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and that has within it. So things like, um, the the the the right to vote freedom of association. Um, right to privacy. [00:09:30] You know, the the the these are these are rights and the way in this international covenant. Crucially, for us, this contains uh, the, uh, anti discrimination. Um right. So the right to be free from discrimination, it actually doesn't mention sexual orientation. Um, but what it does is it gives AAA list of of specified grounds. But it says that discrimination [00:10:00] you have everyone has a right to freedom from discrimination on grounds such as and then just the list. And the courts have have ruled internationally that that such as, uh, includes sexual orientation. The other one is the, um, International Covenant on Economic, social and cultural Rights. [00:10:30] Um And so? So we put 1976. I think both of these were eventually ratified, um, and and that that, um, that covenant includes many of our workplace workplace rights. You know, the the right to work. Say, uh, uh, right to expression of culture. Freedom of expression. Um, [00:11:00] crucially, one of the rights that, uh, that this incorporates is the is some a collection of rights around families, including the right to found a family. Also the right not to be forced into a particular kind of marriage. Um, so So when there is an argument that there is a human right that exists to marriage, [00:11:30] for example, it is through it is through a legal argument based on these two covenants. Now, since since those since those, um, international covenants were were ratified, there have been actually a bunch of other documents. So, for example, there is, uh, see, which is the, uh, uh, convention [00:12:00] on the elimination of discrimination against women. Um, and, uh, another one is un croc. Basically, this is how you become a diplomat. You actually, you learn these acronyms and that gives you access to this world that is otherwise exclusive. Um A is the the the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child and [00:12:30] There's probably about another 10 10 of these that are on things like torture. Uh, the UN thinks it thinks it's a bad thing. Um and, uh and so that's the That's the the canon of international human rights law. Um, the the, um I mean, one of the the probably the most recent addition to those, at least from the from New [00:13:00] Zealand. Signing up to it is, is, um, the drip is the, uh, the UN Declaration on the rights of indigenous people. And as I say, there's there's lots of others and in general, the you know there are there are UN mechanisms. I mean, the the problem with these international instruments is that enforcement is kind of weak. Um, but there are mechanisms that are that are based more on embarrassment. [00:13:30] So individual states have to report to to various bodies within the UN family on their implementation of these international instruments. And so and at the same time, those bodies will also get a report from, say, NGO S, uh, sort of community organisations concerned with those issues about a about that [00:14:00] So, um on the Commission on the Rights of the Child, for example, that mechanism whereby community organisations also report to the UN on how well New Zealand is doing. And implementing the convention has been a very effective pressure. Um, on our government No OK, wow! In New Zealand, um, these three [00:14:30] things are supposed to be reflected in our domestic law by the Human Rights Act. Um, originally the Human Rights Commission Act from the 19 seventies. But the became the Human Rights Act in 1993 when those changes that Catherine was talking about last night came into law. So the actors is supposed to be explicitly about implementing [00:15:00] this lot. But in fact, what it tends to do is to actually be an act about, um, discrimination, which picking up on on your point, John, Um, essentially, what? The Human Rights Act does it. I mean, it's it. It looks in a variety of areas, uh, and says in in this area, there won't be discrimination. Uh, and the ones that we know that we're most familiar with are probably, um, employment, accommodation [00:15:30] and the provision of goods and services. There are There are others, too. Education is another one. Um, and what it says is it will be unlawful to just to discriminate on these grounds listed in the act in that area, apart from the specified situations and so the so the bulk of the act actually is around around exemptions. Um, so So that's that's [00:16:00] it's really only the right to freedom from discrimination that tends to be well recognised in in our Human Rights Act. The addition is, um, what we call the Bora, which was a Jeffrey Palmer Innovation Bill of Rights Act. Um, and the Bill of Rights Act actually does take more of the of the specified rights from these different things, um, [00:16:30] and and says that these will be rights in New Zealand. Um, the problem with with the Bora Bill of Rights Act is that actually, it's not. It's not superior legislation to anything else. So when you come to a situation where, um, another act says something different, well, the the specific overalls, the general uh uh, Where it comes in handy is that if other [00:17:00] legislation is not clear, then courts will use the Bill of Rights Act to determine what the correct interpretation should be. And the other thing that's useful, although maybe not as useful as we might have expected it would be, is that when a new bill is brought to Parliament, it is, um, it has to be kind of audited against the Bill of Rights Act so that there's a kind of a human rights audit on on a bill [00:17:30] before it goes through Parliament. You would think that if the If, um if the opinion came back that said Bill of Rights Act says that says that this bill would infringe human rights and in this way and this way and this way that governments would tend to then change the bill. But actually, it hasn't really worked out that way. So So the way that we can probably I mean picking up on your question jam, though the way we [00:18:00] can probably get more entrenched human rights is to actually look at entrenching the Bill of Rights Act to make it superior legislation against which other legislation must comply. Now, I mentioned the the the the such as and what's what's What's happened is, in the recent recent decades, um, [00:18:30] the international courts have, uh, have inferred, um, a lot about sexual orientation and gender identity. Uh, from these various from these, um, various instruments, even though it tends not to be written in specifically. And of course, they're not the the probably Originally, they were not written in specific, specifically for the same reasons that our marriage [00:19:00] and adoption acts from 1955 don't don't reflect our community's needs. But actually, that isn't what people were thinking about. We were entirely off the radar. Um, in more recent years, I went to in 2000 and one, I think I went to the UN General Assembly with Anne King for the the special session on HIV and A I DS. And I really struggled [00:19:30] to, uh, understand the the the language of the declarations because it tends to be so obtuse. Um, So, for example, this is a declaration on HIV. And rather than talking about men who have sex with men, the the draught declaration that that we had in front of us referred to population groups. Well, [00:20:00] population groups were supposed to be code that everyone would understand meant men who had sex with men, sex workers and injecting drug users. Um, it wasn't written down anywhere but by writing population groups, countries like Sudan for example, uh would be not, would not voting against it. So there's this dance that happens at the international level in very recent years. That's [00:20:30] that's improving. Um, and so we're starting to get much more specificity. But what's what's been incredibly important is, and it's kind of at the interface of this international stuff, and the national stuff is, uh, the the Yo Yaka principles. And what that is [00:21:00] is a whole bunch of human rights experts from around the world basically got together to draught some principles that would assist states in translating these international instruments into into their domestic law. Um, and there specifically around the issues of sexual orientation, sexual behaviour and gender identity. [00:21:30] So when we as activists or legislators, in my case, I just have to keep reminding myself, um, want guidance on on how to use this all of this stuff to actually get changed domestically. It's right there in the yoga principles, and the Human Rights Commission has a bunch of useful resources for for translating for, for doing that translation around those principles. And those [00:22:00] include, for example, the right to marriage equality. So where where a state, um, has a statutory provision for marriage that must be applied irrespective of sexual orientation, gender and gender identity. Um, and the right to found a family that's that's, uh, in in that one, is [00:22:30] combined with the with the right to non-discrimination. That's in that one to amount to the fact that that our differently shaped family arrangements are all recognised and given equal legal status, um, or should be in national laws, Um, including the right to right to adoption. Now, um, [00:23:00] it's a just a just while we're at at this particular place, the this thing about, um, gender identity, the the the human rights, Um, the Human Rights Act does not include gender identity. And there's some discussion of this last night. It is one of the recommendations in the Human Rights Commission's, um to be who I am report, and I believe that it should be added [00:23:30] the the argument, Um, the econ rites to the 22 basic ideas about the importance of grounds in the Human Rights Act. One of one of the reasons for having grounds in the act is to provide a legal mechanism for protection from discrimination and for redress should should discrimination occur now. [00:24:00] The the argument for not including gender identity is that the human Human Rights Commission itself had developed the legal reasoning that established, actually, to my mind, beyond any doubt that the the kind of sex and gender provisions that are there in fact do provide a legal basis for protection from discrimination. So, um, a transgender [00:24:30] person who experiences discrimination and say employment has a legal redress un under the act. Now, however, the other point of having the grounds in the legislation is around signalling or semiotics. What signal do we send both to those who are marginalised and who experience discrimination and to the discriminators and actually to have [00:25:00] the act silent on gender identity gives, uh, a a message that is permissive of discrimination. I don't think that is acceptable. Um, those who've heard me speak about about marriage equality, um, will know that, actually, it's the semiotic thing, the the the signalling effect of the law that I think is the most important [00:25:30] thing about about changing the marriage act. Um, for exactly the same reasons. I come to that in in a in a second. So the next thing I want to talk about is, um, public health, which is as I sort of hinted before. Probably seems a bit weird. Uh, so I got recruited by the AIDS Foundation I recruited to go and do a job. [00:26:00] I mean, not to not recruited in some other way. Um, as as a gay man who had some political skills, Um, in 1988 um, to go and work for for the foundation on in the human Rights programme. The reason for that was this. So some will remember. And, um, for some, this will be an ancient history lesson in, uh, in the sort of mid 19 eighties [00:26:30] we had, uh, this devastating epidemic ripping through our community. We had got past the point of not knowing what caused it. So we knew that HIV was a virus, that it was the cause of AIDS. It was being spread through unprotected sexual contact. So conventional theories about health said, Well, uh, [00:27:00] preventing transmission ought to be a fairly straightforward thing because we know how it spread. We know how you could stop it being spread. Just use condoms every time. Um, So what we need to do is put that information into posters and leaflets and just have them available, you know, give them to the guys kind of thing. Um, well, [00:27:30] this, uh, this theory didn't work out so well for a variety of reasons. One of them, uh, you will appreciate is that, uh, many men who have sex with men, um, were not in predictable places, uh, or who were or were hiding if they were in those places. So giving them leaflets kind of really wasn't such an easy thing to do. But [00:28:00] more importantly, there was a piece of research done by some friends of mine, Um, a horn chitin and for the for the for the the academic geeks. And what they did was, uh, interviewed a whole lot of men who had sex with other men and divided them into two groups on the basis of the interviews, the group that that always seemed to be able to manage to have safe [00:28:30] sex and the group that didn't always manage to do so and the sort of basic research technique WW What? What else is different about these groups and what's common within those groups? Well, interestingly, the group that didn't always have safe sex. Uh, often would say I'm not gay, So they had a poorly developed sense of gay identity. So they might say, um, it was just that one time [00:29:00] or, um, I was really drunk. Or you I mean, you're probably familiar with the with the rationalisations, um so poorly developed our identity. Low self esteem, um, was another typical characteristic of that group. Uh, alcohol and drug problems was quite common within that group. Uh, poor communication skills again common in that group. [00:29:30] And there are a variety of other things, but those are the main ones. And these were differentiating characteristics from the from the other group. So those who always managed safe sex felt good about themselves, felt good about being gay, typically were on top of alcohol and drug issues and had good communication skills. So we we're looking for the research that said OK, so what's what's what's behind all of those [00:30:00] things and with a historical perspective, it's kind of obvious. Um, the the these men were either the victims of discrimination or they were hiding their sexual orientation in order to avoid discrimination. And actually the those those attributes that they had [00:30:30] are well described in the academic literature as the consequences of either of those. It's kind of an ironic thing that so if I decide I'm not gonna come out because I don't want to experience discrimination. Actually, the psychological consequences for me of making that choice of burying my identity are more or less the same consequences that I would experience as if I came out and then experienced discrimination. And what that means is [00:31:00] that that there's a whole bunch of people who are in hiding because of this of their sexual identity, and therefore we can't reach with our health behaviour stuff, but also even if we can reach them. And actually, the interesting thing is that I didn't mention this between these two groups. There is no difference in the level of understanding of what's safe and what isn't safe. They know the same things about HIV, so giving them [00:31:30] more information doesn't help because actually, their ability to manage the behaviour change is also, um, damaged by their by by the, uh, negative social environment. So in um, in the AIDS Foundation, what we realised is, if we want to change actual behaviour, that is transmitting HIV. We [00:32:00] have to change this negative social environment, and that's why we we were very heavily involved. Indeed, in driving that human rights campaign, that's that's what I worked on from 1988 to 1993 at the AIDS Foundation. Now weirdly well, weirdly at the same time in international health circles. So we were [00:32:30] developing this theory kind of on the basis of our empirical observations and experience at the same time internationally, uh, health experts were kind of observing this interesting thing not necessarily about HIV, but about, um, pretty well, any disease you can think of. And you can apply the same thought experiment in this country. And so start with [00:33:00] any disease. Uh, who has the disease who doesn't have it? Let's map the concentrations of the prevalence of this disease through a map of New Zealand. Once we've done one disease, let's take the next disease. We'll do exactly the same thing, and then we'll do the next disease and do the same thing. And you can probably think about [00:33:30] what that map is going to look like, because it's not a map that has disease evenly spread through the country. that with, for more or less any disease you can think of. Ill health is clustered in marginalised populations both, um, populations who are marginalised and confined to a particular geographic area but also, uh, populations [00:34:00] that are spread through the whole population. Uh, and we're one of those. So we have higher higher rates of quite a number of of ill health conditions. And so the problem for, uh, people whose theory of health is that well, it's just a germ, um, as well. Actually, that doesn't explain what you see, but it's [00:34:30] also a problem for the for the people whose model of health is. It's just about having the right information and making the right choices. That actually that doesn't explain what you see either. Unless, you know PE people from marginalised communities are particularly bad at making choices, you know, or or or have very poor information about about smoking. Could it be that Maori just don't understand that smoking is bad for their health? [00:35:00] Actually, no, that's not what it is. It's about racism. It's about the Treaty of Waitangi. It's about marginalisation, about economic deprivation. It's about those things so internationally in the health field. This theory called health promotion, was being developed. And, uh, what health promotion says that one should do in terms of action guidelines, uh, [00:35:30] promote healthy public policy. So have have law that facilitates good health outcomes. Um, creates supportive environments, and obviously everyone jumps to physical environments. Um, because, actually, if you're living next to a toxic waste dump, that's not good for your health. It's a bad environmental factor, but equally social environments matter too. [00:36:00] Strengthen community action. Uh, because communities are the ones who actually do know what will make a difference, develop personal skills, which, uh, which, uh, again needs to be embedded in the community response and reorient health services. So health services are not so much about, uh, not so much about [00:36:30] treating people when they're sick, but actually preventing them becoming sick in the first place. So those are the five action guidelines from the Ottawa Charter, which was signed in 1986. And if you think about those things, and if you think about the things that we realised we needed to do around HIV in New Zealand to actually make a difference, um, what that says is a whole lot of what you need to do is about political [00:37:00] engagement and and political change. And the the classic Ottawa Charter intervention is, um, a a marginalised community who is likely to have lots of different, um, adverse health outcomes, Um, but is also, interestingly likely to have adverse outcomes in education and social welfare and crime. [00:37:30] But they're all likely to be clustered in those communities. What the Ottawa Charter says is you can make a difference if you're a government. You can make a difference to all of those outcomes by getting us alongside that community, empowering it so resourcing its own initiatives and creating around the outside an environment in legislation and in attitudes that is [00:38:00] supportive of that community. So that's why human rights matter so much to our community. So in the debate so far on marriage equality we have we have had some discussion around youth suicide. Naturally, rates of attempts of five or six times [00:38:30] the heterosexual peers are at the conservative end of the range of of research projects. Internationally, there are there are studies from the states that have nine or 14 times, Um, but that is just one indicator the the what? I mean, what? This theory that I've just been expand expounding to you also says is that [00:39:00] by creating a more supportive social environment by actually having New Zealand legislation that pro that provides full legal equality actually will not only address youth suicide will also address HIV infection rates will address, um, mental health conditions will address alcohol and other drug problems in our community will address educational outcomes in our community and many others. Besides, [00:39:30] so so this stuff honouring our human rights is not just some abstract thing. It has very real, uh, impacts not only on those who want to get married, Um, but but on everyone else. Besides, so let me just, um I just tend to start writing when I do. I could do this stuff. Sorry. Applying to marriage. So [00:40:00] the right to marry? I've I've talked, um, talked about that. So here. I mean, there are some disputes around, um, human rights, and I'm drawing this from the from the submissions of already read and heard a very large number of submissions from from both sides. One of the one of the specific points that opponents dispute is whether there is a right to marry. [00:40:30] Um, legally, there is clearly no, actually, no no dispute around that there is a right to marry, um, and and in particular that right to freedom from discrimination. There's a There's a curious line in some of the submissions against marriage Equality that kind of says, Well, um, actually, Kev, you already can marry, and therefore you are not being discriminated against. Um, [00:41:00] but But I have chosen through some perversity on my part, uh, to identify, um, as gay. And therefore, I am choosing not to be able to have my right to marry on it. Um, and therefore, I'm not being discriminated against. It's just my poor choices. Uh, there is There are There are two particular points that I think are outstanding [00:41:30] issues that that are ones around conflict, conflict of, of rights. Because there is a there is a right to freedom of religion. And, um, that's recognised in the International Covenant on Social, Economic and Economic, Social and Cultural rights. Uh, and there is also the right to freedom of expression. So there. So here are two things [00:42:00] that also combine in interesting ways. And while everybody's submission that I've seen so far. With the exception of the Victoria University of Wellington Students Association, um is arguing that, uh, churches ought not to be required to marry couples against their will. The that is very clearly a fear [00:42:30] of, uh, more conservative churches and and many, many, I would say, in excess of 90% of the submissions made against the bill That that is, that will be one of the effects of it. Um, there is a There is a a related concern that's come through, which is around freedom of expression. There is a There's a provision in the marriage act that, um, makes it an offence [00:43:00] to a claim that, uh, someone's marriage is not a real one. I I'm paraphrasing, but, um, the so so and it has a particular historical. Um, but some churches are concerned about that that they will not be able to say that, um, that that same sex marriages are wrong [00:43:30] if this bill goes through. So those are the two rights based concerns. Now, the the one about, um who can get married is a really interesting one, because, well, I mean II I mean, I think I think it is wrong to try and bind a church. Um, to say you have to marry Ian and Kev if they if they come to you. Um, [00:44:00] it's kind of interesting, though, isn't it? Because what if a church still had, um a, uh a doctrinal belief that said, uh, couples with different races of different races ought not to be able to marry, you know, or the state's law to to allow that? Um, actually, I mean, [00:44:30] as as some of you will have seen, Andrew Geddis article that's been published around a bit. But I mean, he's saying, actually, this kind, this issue, current current, does exist already in the law. Um, in practise, of course, people tend not to go to churches who have a doctrinal belief that that are that that is opposed to their marriage and ask for marriage. Um, but it's an interesting point as to as to where that line [00:45:00] should lie between freedom of religion and religious expression, I guess. And, um uh, and the and freedom from discrimination in marriage Is there a definition of religion that's satisfactory? Because, I mean, if you define religion at its heart about not discriminating against people, then you could say, Well, you haven't got a Really You haven't got a real religion. So you can't one from Margaret? Yeah. [00:45:30] Um, yeah, it it it's it's interesting, but But of course. I mean, as said in the last session, you know, there there are many religions over over the years who have not sort of lived up to that ideal. Um, so the you'll have seen that there's that there, actually is that this is a debated point. Um, so that, um, the Human Rights Commission and Andrew Geddis [00:46:00] both argue, as as those of us who are supporters of the bill say that in fact, the law is clear that that, um, the churches are not would not be forced to to to marry they would be enabled, but not required. However, I have to tell you that, uh, the New Zealand Law Society, um, has put in a submission that believes something else to be the case and that the Crown [00:46:30] Law Office has also given the select committee an opinion to the opposite effect. Um, so what we are left with is those of us who are promoting the bill and saying you know, it's We don't want there to be any doubt that our intention is very clear that churches should not be required. If that is indeed our position, then we probably have to include in the bill a a clause [00:47:00] that says, for the avoidance of doubt, nothing in this act shall require et cetera. So that's what they mean when they had to rectify. Yeah, yeah, so? So that so. The select committee will, I would say, certainly recommend the inclusion of such a clause. Um, I want to come to adoption because that's that's the That's the other big issue. It's interesting. I mean, [00:47:30] um, some of you will have heard me talk about this, that that in fact, some of you probably meet with me and, um, And in the past years and a year ago, I I was saying, full legal equality is very important and we we will need to make changes in marriage and adoption. Uh, I don't believe there's any prospect of achieving marriage equality under this current government, [00:48:00] and therefore I'm putting no energy at all into it. Um, adoption does have some prospect of of success. You know, we'll put some time into that. But my big thing is around a supportive social environment for young people. And I'm doing this project with Murray and and that's you know, that's so that's my priority. So in the in the intervening year, however, uh, Mr Obama has has very helpfully made some comments. And John Key, who in so many respects is very like [00:48:30] Barack Obama, um, has has echoed those comments and in the domestic situation. So I sometimes need to explain my sense of humour. Maybe the, uh um so So marriage Equality is now not only possible, but very, very likely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. Um, but in the meantime, adoption has been bubbling away. [00:49:00] And and the the the the history here is that, uh, before 2005, my colleague had a bill in the ballot which did a very simple thing. It was simply change the definition of spouse in the adoption act, um, to include, uh, unmarried heterosexual couples, um, and same sex couples. Because [00:49:30] the the adoption act in 1955 as many of you, I'm sure will know provides for adoption by married couples and by single people. Um with the kind of bizarre consequence that single lesbian or gay people can adopt. But, uh, gay or lesbian couples cannot. And until 2010, uh, unmarried [00:50:00] heterosexual couples as well as same sex couples could not adopt. Um what what I did when when I came to parliament was immediate was pick up that bill that had had in the ballot, and I had it in the ballot in my name for a while. And then what happened is, uh, various NGO S concerned around adoption issues, came to me and said, Actually, the issues with the act are much, much [00:50:30] bigger than that. And despite having been, uh, I guess concerned about as as the father of of a son who, um who was, um uh, the also the son of a lesbian mother. Um, and, uh, and our our family, if you try and sort of plot it on a, I don't [00:51:00] know, a traditional family family tree look looks like a wire. The wiring diagram is very odd, and we have these very interesting situations where I say, OK, this So, um, here is Phoebe, who was the the, um, daughter of the partner of the mother of my son. Um and so our family looks kind of a bit strange. Uh, I [00:51:30] hadn't given a lot of thought to adoption issues prior to 2008, but what What people said to me is, actually, if you're going to try and change the adoption act, change the whole thing because the whole thing is is terrible. And Adoption Act 1955 essentially works like a property transaction. It it it, uh, it deals with Children as if they were chattels of of [00:52:00] their parents. And so the process of adoption is reduced to a process of the chattel of one set of parents being passed to another set of parents. And so, just as with an ownership writer And if I sell a bike to someone else, I don't have some residual relationship with that bike. It's all gone. That's what adoption does, too. It [00:52:30] completely terminates the relationship between the child and their biological parents. And, um, what what has happened more recently in in New Zealand is that the norm in adoption has become what we call open adoption and and open adoption. Uh, Children maintain relationships with their biological family [00:53:00] and and and family, as well as with their new adoptive parenting arrangements and family, and that is widely recognised to be, in most cases, not all cases in the best interests of that child. So that's what normally happens now in New Zealand, however, that happens entirely outside of the framework of the law, because the law doesn't [00:53:30] provide for it at all. The law is so obsolete that that that the the usual current practise by state agencies is not provided for in the law. It's that bad. Um so it has been apparent for many years, in fact, that the Adoption act needs to be fundamentally changed. And you're probably aware that in 2001 there was a law commission report on [00:54:00] the care of Children that that recommended essentially the repeal of the Guardianship Act and the Adoption Act and their amalgamation into a new modern piece of legislation that would be called Care of Children Act that was implemented in part by the Labour government in 2004. And they they did the part that was about guardianship. Um, but they left alone. But there was about [00:54:30] a option And probably it was to do with nervousness around adoption by same sex couples. That probably is the reason they left it alone. Um, but the consequence of that is is that this really archaic and and dysfunctional piece of law has remained in place. So in the the care of Children Act that is entirely nondiscriminatory [00:55:00] in its provisions around guardianship. Um, but we're still left with this dreadful piece of piece of legislation around adoption. So, um, one of the things that, um one of the things that I that I I quickly concluded was when I looked at the history, the reason it hadn't been moved on, actually, actually, by successive governments. I didn't want to touch it because it was a big, big reform, but also [00:55:30] because they feared that their opponents across the house would in some way use it as a weapon against them. And so what I did was convene a cross party group. Um, I. I sort of figured out that actually pretty well, everyone in Parliament recognised that this piece of legislation needed to be overhauled and that there was good support for a cross party group. So that's what we did in the last parliamentary term. And [00:56:00] the bill that I've currently got in the ballot is a reflection of that work that we did as a cross party group that Nicky Kay and I continued to work on in this parliamentary term. And it implements the law commission's recommendations around adoption and also does some other things around. Um non-commercial surrogacy. It's called altruistic surrogacy. [00:56:30] Um, because another law commission report that also was ignored by the by the government of the day was a report into the the legal implications of new forms of parenting. Because, as you might imagine, the the the kinds of family structures that I just talked about in terms of my own family, um, are creating all sorts of of challenges for legal systems [00:57:00] and the law around surrogacy is kind of really struggling. And, um, so one of the other things that my bill does is to provide a legal framework for adoption by the commissioning parents, um, of the child that that is, that is born to an altruistic surrogacy arrangement. Um, so [00:57:30] So that's that's where we are there. Interestingly, I tend to talk about I don't talk about a right to adoption. Um, it is possible to argue that there is a right to adopt, Um, and in particular, if you to take those those international agreements and say the right to found a family coupled with the right to freedom from discrimination, um, together con constitute that adoption. Right? But what I frame [00:58:00] the issue, as instead is to say, what has to be absolutely prime in decisions about adoption, Uh, is that is what is in the best interests of this particular child. And it's that child's right to have, um, the best possible upbringing. Um, the best, best possible decisions made for them. Um, that [00:58:30] ought to be at the at the heart of the law. And where that comes in and intersects with our issues is that currently the law does not put all of the options for adoption and parenting arrangements on the table. And what that must mean in some cases is that the best decision for that child will not be made because the option wasn't available. [00:59:00] So if we want the the best interest for Children to be consistently made, all of the options have got to be on the table. including same sex couples. Um, in terms of a campaign, I think I think adoption is gonna play out very differently from from, um, marriage, equality. In the case of marriage equality, we we are needing to campaign for this. [00:59:30] We are campaigning from a position of strength. Um, and our issue is the central issue in the case of the overhaul of adoption reform. Actually, our issue kind of gets addressed along the way, but it is not the prime the prime issue that is at stake in adoption reform. Um, what is it? What is it? What is the prime issue Is overhauling something that's simply an archaic piece of legislation [01:00:00] that is not working for anyone. Um, now, that doesn't mean that we won't need to organise around it. Um, there is an interaction between marriage equality and adoption reform. So when um, when Lewis's bill is passed and when [01:00:30] courts come to interpret what spouse means in the adoption act, then they will very clearly, in my view, interpret that to include married same sex couples. There's no question, regardless of there's no, um the sorry that I give you a question, regardless of regardless of boys or girls? Yeah. So because currently men can't adopt [01:01:00] girls. Yes, they can. Mr. King, the, um in in? Yeah, the It's a wrinkle that, uh that that is more slightly more complicated than what the law says. But the law says they can, um the so so the so married same sex couples will be able to adopt. What that will leave is [01:01:30] some categories of same sex couples. So same sex couples who are in a civil union and choose not to marry same sex couples who are in a de facto relationship who choose not to formalise their relationship either in a civil union or a marriage. What will the law say about them? Does that necessarily follow that? Because in that recent high court, full court judgement that found that same, uh, sorry, the opposite the fact to couples at the time. And if [01:02:00] you think that it follows that spouse would include because parliament clear in 10 minutes, he spouse to include marrying same sex couples because that's six years don't know. If they don't make that leap, why wouldn't they make the leap to? I believe that they will, um, so if there was no reform of the adoption act at all. I. I think there will be a two stage process. First stage will follow I immediately and will allow married same sex couples to adopt [01:02:30] down the road. Um, courts will interpret, um, the act using an exactly parallel argument to the one that Claudia used to win the de facto heterosexual couples case, um, to extend, uh, adoption to same sex de facto couples. Um, so I So I think that that those [01:03:00] issues would be would be addressed in in that way, regardless and to and to some extent, that's kind of useful, you know, there there is some argument in some of the submissions that there should be an explicit provision in Lewis's bill to to actually make it, um, kind of statutory law to extend to those categories regardless. Right now, that's up to Lesa [01:03:30] whether she wants to put that put that in or not. But, um, the the essential problem from the point of view of an adoption advocate is that, uh, kind of piece meal amendment of the existing Adoption Act. This is the central point about the Adoption Act, which is it's entirely not for for purpose. So on that point, what's the status of [01:04:00] on the same ad? Because that's been drawn right? That just addresses the same. No, no, it doesn't what Jacinda Bill does. Um, but I know what Jacinda Bill does is Does it says, um, that if it's passed, the Minister of Justice must instruct the law commission [01:04:30] to review and update its previous report, um, on adoption and to draught a bill that would implement its recommendations. Um and and I and I think requires the minister to then table the bill in Parliament. Um, it's not specific to to the [01:05:00] same sex couples issue at all. And many audience members probably aware that there's been some tension between Jacinda and I about this bill, partly because Labour withdrew from the cross party group in order to to promote the idea of of Jacinda bill. But more importantly, because the the the end product of Jacinda Bill would be, [01:05:30] um, would be a bill a bill very similar to the one that we already have that's on the ballot now, um, and and also wouldn't deal with the surrogacy issues and actually would be no more likely to go through parliament at at that time, so I think it's a It was an interesting idea, but unnecessary. So, yeah, I mean, the and what What Jacinda has done with her Bill because, uh, because [01:06:00] she was anxious, I think that that may confuse matters with Lewis's is is to defer consideration of the bill. So, Jacinda, Bill is currently not before parliament. Um, if when Lewis's bill is either passed or defeated, Jacinda Bill, uh, could then come back onto the order paper. I'm about [01:06:30] done for my rent. Um, so, you know, questions or discussion. Can you clarify what you meant about the surrogacy thing? Like just OK, so blame. So if a if a couple, regardless of whether they are a same sex couple or or a different sex couple, um, cannot I think probably in every case have have Children themselves biologically. [01:07:00] They can. They they cannot legally enter into a commercial arrangement with, um, a woman to to be the surrogate, a mother of a child for them. But they can enter under New Zealand law into an altruistic surrogacy. Um, with with that woman where whereby there is, uh, if she [01:07:30] If she agrees to bear a child. Um, for them for that couple currently under New Zealand law, the parents of that child will be, um, not them so and actually it's unclear in New Zealand law who the parents will be. So the courts have really struggled with figuring out who has parenting rights and responsibilities [01:08:00] and surrogacy arrangements. So what my bill does in respect of surrogacy is is to say it introduces some some provisions to, uh to assist, saying, Here are some Here are some costs that can be that that can be met without the relationship becoming a commercial service. Here are some steps that can be taken by all parties involved in this to, uh, facilitate [01:08:30] the legal parenting after the child is born. And then here is the law that will apply. So, um, the the that commissioning couple will become the parents. And there's various loophole kind of clauses to provide for exemptions for changes of mind and that that that kind of thing. But the law provides provides a basis for that couple to become the legal parents of the child. [01:09:00] I think it's a really complicated area, just sort of sticking another hat on as a biologist. Now, um, what's the situation with regard to the implantation of a fertilised donor egg? Who were the legal parents at that point? Um, sort of down the track from it, but it again, it's it's It's not entirely clear under New Zealand law, but [01:09:30] the starting point would be the biological parents. So the man that the sperm has come from, and the and the woman that the egg has come from so they would be the biological parents. As far as the law is concerned, probably. And that's exactly why the Law Commission did its report on the legal implications of new forms of parenting. Because it's not clear that that makes it a question of whether the egg is sort of a person, isn't it really, [01:10:00] if it can be parented in the in the sense that we have generally, which is that how pops the baby and then it has parents, Um, and and I guess it's it's as a as a piece of tissue. Um, it probably isn't, um well, well, just go for it and go through the the the the the state, anyway. As a piece of tissue, then it's little more than the egg egg on [01:10:30] its own or sperm on its own, which get flushed down the toilet. Um, quite quite a lot. Um, some people might find that challenging, but But it will be difficult to sort of say that there are parents to an egg, which which is on fertilised or a sperm that's all fertilised either, so that there is a certain really, quite a a. It is complicated and and my bill on only addresses one tiny little bit of of that broad spectrum of issues. There absolutely [01:11:00] needs to be a legislative response to to deal with the lots of other issues there. Um and, um again, I think it's it's very sad that the that actually the Labour government in 2000 six, I think, did not actually pick up on that. Uh, I think we should be very grateful to you, Kevin, for the the very, very lucid rundown you've given starting from the analysis [01:11:30] of of Human rights instruments as the person who's been the UN as nations human rights person until recently for four years, I think that there are alarmingly few of our 121 members of pound alarmingly few who've got anything like your grasp of human rights, international human rights law, human rights conventions. And, uh, we we we're greatly indebted to you for the very lucid talk that you've given, And I think we can be optimistic. But out of your reference and [01:12:00] Jacinda and Louisa and other MP S efforts, we're going to get some pretty substantial progress in the very near future. Thank you. I appreciate it. Sorry. So Jacinda justified her approach to to her, though, as being that because of the pressures of being our position. Um, as far as resources go, no opposition members could draught a bill that would be ring us as one drafted by the law commission. And I just wonder what you [01:12:30] say to that. She's wrong. Um, so So the the bill. The bill that we have drafted has involved, you know, a very, very substantial amount of work. Um, not only from us, but from, uh, a team of legal academics with a specialist interest in the area. [01:13:00] So So we know that the bill that we have drafted is robust has involved, uh, a very considerable amount of input from from people whose specialist area it is. So it would be inconceivable, in fact, to me that the Law Commission could produce a better bill. And clearly the the point the the point that she makes that it wouldn't be possible to do is wrong, because we've done it. [01:13:30] Yeah, I think, um, I really like your child approach to adoption. And, um, I was wondering then, so you can say that Yeah. Intersect with marriage equality. And so if we have all the options on the table, like all people's expressions, um, then it comes down to who the best parents or the child is [01:14:00] going to, which I agree with. But then, like, this is my dad's big philosophy. Should we have a test for parenting? Should we have a test of parenting? Well, um, let me tell you how open adoption works at the moment. So the, uh, specialist social workers from [01:14:30] MS D. I can't. I can't. I've sort of lost track of those acronyms. They just changed so fast. Um, I think it's NSD. Um, actually works with people who express an interest in adopting Children to develop what they call profiles and That's, uh, it's quite an exhaustive process. It's it's lots of information about them, but also working with them to [01:15:00] go through the realities of of parenting a child, um, to to determine their suitability. And so they have a kind of a threshold test now as to whether these people would be suitable parents and then they they essentially put those, uh, have a sort of bank of those profiles of individuals and and of couples. And so when [01:15:30] um, biological parents wish to make their child have their child adopted, um, they get to choose and they can see as many or as few of those profiles as as they want. So they could say, Just put me one at random if that that's what they chose to do on the the current setup. This is how it would work. Um, or they can say, [01:16:00] I want to see absolutely all of them or I want to see 10 like this. And, um, and what my bill proposes is is that you still have kind of that mix. But actually, the court will then also ensure that the arrangement, because the biological, um, family and the adoptive family must also have a parenting arrangement which is written down, which is [01:16:30] This is how we are going to ensure that this child has connections across those those across this interface. And then the court then must must put its seal on on the basis that it's the best origin for a child. So it's not quite the, you know, you've passed the test you're in, but it's kind of similar. Margaret, I think on a question that I asked this morning about I'm not sure [01:17:00] if you were here, but I wonder about the right to religious freedom of you know, these terms for people who are civil but might have a religious belief that, um, make them in. Yeah, there's there's a there's a really interesting debate going on. So if we and it's around the extent of the amendment that the select committee put puts up, um, should it extend [01:17:30] to celebrants more generally or just to those who are acting on behalf of the church? Um, the argument, the argument for extending it to to celebrants more more generally is it would be a way of reflecting what the law currently is, or at least what the law is currently understood to be that actually, the law provides, you know, provides [01:18:00] for empowers but does not require both two churches and and other celebrants. So the argument for extending the the amendment to be clear that that celebrants also are not required it comes from from preserving the status quo the argument against is a kind of principles based argument that says, um, marriage celebrants, [01:18:30] actually, regardless of whether their religious belief or not, um, have effectively hung up their shingle and are entering into essentially a provision of goods and services contract the provision of service literally, I guess, um, and therefore it ought to be subject to all of the non discrimination provisions that that that apply to other services. Um, [01:19:00] I don't know what the answer to that is. It's an interesting debate. So, um, this is, um, my, uh and I got married in Canada three years ago. Um, understand that the legislation is moves forward, not back. So, um, are we in the position of having to a Canadian divorce that we were married in New Zealand? Uh, [01:19:30] no, I don't. Well, well, it's I don't know what their marriage be recognised? Well, yes, or their marriage will be recognised. But the thing is, if they want a New Zealand marriage, then probably yes, you would have to get a Dior. And you know the law Law will provide [01:20:00] for the recognition of marriages that that occur elsewhere, that that that meet our requirements. So that would include your marriage, your marital. I'm I'm 90% sure. My kind of thought that it might need a high court declaration. But then my lawyer is interested in, I mean, interestingly in relation to surrogacy, for example, there are some interesting [01:20:30] problems in law at the moment. So, um, I was dealing recently with a A heaven to be a same sex couple from New Zealand who were living in another country, entered into a an altruistic surrogacy arrangement overseas in in that other country. They are recognised as the legal parents of the child, resulting child. They have [01:21:00] since come back to New Zealand with their child where a and then under New Zealand law, the biological mother of the child in the source country is recognised as the child and as the parent. And they are not, um since and given that, um, they are not legally the parents in New Zealand. The child's status in relation to immigration status [01:21:30] is also subject to legal uncertainty. So, I mean, my bill deals with that problem too. You've been fabulous. I'm done. Thank you. Mhm.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089376
TITLE: Faith Forum - Marriage Equality Conference
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Margaret Mayman
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bible; Civil Union Act (2004); Community House/Press Hall; Community Law (Wellington); Family First NZ; Kay Jones; Kevin Hague; Margaret Mayman; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Marriage Equality Conference (2012); Nigel Studdart; St Andrew's on the Terrace; Walter Wink; Wellington; church; civil unions; faith; homophobia; identity; justice; law; love; marriage; marriage equality; prejudice; religion; sexuality; silence; spirituality
DATE: 1 December 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Community House/Press Hall, 80 Willis Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Rev. Dr. Margaret Maymen leads a discussion on the faith-based Christian case for marriage equality, and provides some " spiritual self-defence" strategies for difficult conversations. This forum was recorded during the Marriage Equality Conference held at Community House in Wellington.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I think that faith is underlying a lot of the anxieties, Um, that we're addressing around marriage equality. And it's quite easy just to dismiss people of faith and faith views as, um bigoted, ignorant and, um, unhelpful. And indeed, some of them are, um but I think it's also important. And some of the, um, media, the person who was talking about media earlier, talked about the need to understand those who we disagree with. And I think that's [00:00:30] really important for us. Um, as as we look at this, I'd just be quite interested to know a little bit about you. Um, so if I could just, um, if you don't don't participate at all if you don't want to. But if you could just raise your hand If you've ever been part of a faith community, OK? And if you're still a member of your community, all right, this is you're a perfect a perfect sample of the New Zealand public, I think. Um, yeah. So this is, you know, some I'll [00:01:00] assume that people know some stuff, but also, um, that most people aren't aware, um, with what's happening about this issue within faith communities at the moment apart from those that are really visible, um, in the media and also wanted to talk to start by talking about why I'm involved in this and about why Saint Andrews on the terrace is involved because we're very aware that around homosexual law reform, the Human Rights Act changes civil unions, prostitution, law reform as well. [00:01:30] And this now this law that the most vocal opponents, um, are coming from a faith perspective. And so that's the perspective that we need to understand and address. But what I also want to share with you is that while it doesn't get a lot of media coverage, there are huge numbers of people faith who don't have a problem with this legislation. Um, they they're often not the people in positions of power and leadership, and a few of us are able to to speak as leaders. But there are. [00:02:00] You shouldn't assume that, um, that because a person is Christian or Muslim or Hindu or Sikh or whatever, that they are opposed to this legislation. And one of the things that I think in terms of strategy that we have to look at is how can we you know we're talking about in the previous thing about building alliances. Um, with straight and gay students building alliances I like to think about how can we, um, build as a movement as a campaign and strengthen our alliances with [00:02:30] people of faith? Who, um, are going to be helpful for us because it's a bit like the media about the niche media. Um, idea, too. You actually have to address yourself with a particular audience in mind and one of the things that I hope will that will come out of this. Um, is that people of faith? While there will be some really vocal people who will never change their mind, there will be other people who will start to look at their faith in a different way and to learn that there are people of faith. Um, for whom, you know, homophobia [00:03:00] is not the bottom line. I think it's important. Um, a lot of people, you know, say things like, Well, you know, if you believe if you're a Christian, um, when the Bible says homosexuality is wrong, Therefore you have to believe that a lot of, um, secular New Zealanders assume that too. So I think it's quite important that, um, people understand that there are a lot of people of faith in New Zealand and around the world who aren't literalists about the texts. We, um, are people who have a sacred text. But [00:03:30] it's not one book that the Bible for us is A is a library. It's a whole lot of books created over a very long period of time, um, oral stories that are thousands of years old and written down over, um, over a period of over 1000 years. So within those stories within those books in the Bible, there are lots of different stories. There are multiple accounts of human relationships, multiple accounts of understanding, um, [00:04:00] how we are to be in relation with one another, sexually and and otherwise. And I think of the Bible as not so much as a rule book about human sexuality. In fact, it's a very lousy rule book about human sexuality, but it is the story of people of generations of people, of first of all, a tribal people and then, um, a sort of nomadic people and then people who began to settle in cities and developed a whole kingdom people who were sent into exile as a result of losing [00:04:30] a war. And, you know, the the theology changed because they were in a different place. They were no longer in control and, um, making lots of rules about how things should be like you find in Leviticus. But they were out in the in the wilderness in a place where they were no longer in control. And so their theology, their understanding of who they were in relation to God, um, changed enormously. And then you get what was the sources? The struggles that were happening in Judaism around the time of the birth of Jesus And really, you know, Jesus was [00:05:00] Jewish, Um, in case anyone hadn't noticed. And, um, what was going on in Judaism was a huge tumult, um, around the direction that Judaism would go in. And really, um what Jesus lead was a Jewish reform movement. And then the the New Testament developed, um, through a period when people were being persecuted after the fall of the temple in Jerusalem. And so their identity, um, became really oppositional to the Jews, the ones who were called the Jews in the Bible [00:05:30] because they were really, um, the ones who weren't accepting these kind of Christian Jews. So you have to read the Bible, Um, with all understanding that politics and understanding the power, our struggles and understanding the different sorts of literature that it is, some of it's old old stories like Adam and Eve. The story. It's not about how the world began. It's a story of understanding what our relationship is to the sacred, um, and to the earth. And we might have We might tell a different story now, but the story kind of made sense [00:06:00] to them at the time. And it says things like, You know, women shall suffer in childbirth. Well, that was before painkillers. So, um, it wasn't saying that it was necessary for women to suffer in childbirth. It was just explaining what happened. And so those some of those sacred stories are written for that kind of purpose. Some of them are the stories of prophets who thought, you know, the society is really going off the rails. The rich have got all the power. Um, the poor people are being trampled. There is no love shown in the nation. Um, so they were calling the people back to this sort [00:06:30] of being authentic and good people. And then, you know, I think Jesus, um was about also about sort of reforming the tradition and a lot of stuff about critique of legalism, critique of people who are taking the rules that they inherited and using those to oppress people. So he said, things like, You know, human beings. The Sabbath is made for human beings, not human beings for the Sabbath. So we've got stuff in that in those texts that can be incredibly liberating. But sadly, it's often used, um, to better [00:07:00] people over the heads with. So I think it's helpful. Um, and one of the things I'm really interested in is what I call spiritual self defence for people who are not involved in faith communities, to know, to kind of think about what the Bible is, so that if you're engaged in conversations, you can, um, have enough information to kind of point out the complexity of this document. There are contradictions in it. It doesn't mean that it's not a wonderful story, a wonderful resource for understanding human beings. But it's certainly not a rule book for [00:07:30] how we should be today. So moving just more clearly into I mean, I will just briefly deal with the, um, what we call the texts of terror, the the texts that are used to better gay and lesbian people and particularly young people. Um, and really, the important thing to notice about those is that the ones that are in the Hebrew Bible simply don't have authority over Christians. Um, now, So the the Leviticus texts. I don't think that you, you know, [00:08:00] they they're in there with a whole lot of rules about all sorts of things. You probably heard this about not eating shellfish and not planting mixed crops. And, uh and, you know, I, um, have a young woman in my congregation who made this fabulous t-shirt that says God hates shrimp. Um, you know, so you know, there there are all sorts of, um, things that are not relevant to us. But there are some texts in the, um in the New Testament that are much more problematic. But the important thing for us to realise when we look at those texts now is that we interpret them with [00:08:30] a with the scientific knowledge that we have, and all of those texts in the Bible that seem to be condemning same homosexuality are condemning same sex acts between people who are assumed to be heterosexual, not homosexual. Because the Bible within the biblical tradition, there's no understanding of a variety of human sexual orientation. The biblical people, right from the ancients through to the early church, assumed that God created everyone male and female [00:09:00] and straight. So given that we have a whole raft of scientific and social and psychological knowledge about human sexuality, it's incumbent on us to use that. I mean, we have. We have been created with brains, and, um, we we don't leave those aside of where People of faith. So nothing in the Bible is actually speaking to condemn gay people who in gay relationships and I. I think you can say that very clearly because the the [00:09:30] the challenge in the Bible is to for people to go against their nature. That's what was upsetting to the biblical writers. They thought it was wrong to go against your nature. But if you are in fact gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender or intersex, then what is natural for you is going to be different. So I think we need to really claim that and, um, and challenge the biblical literalism. I'll say a little bit about marriage in a in a minute, [00:10:00] but I just wanted to share with you two resources that I think are incredibly helpful and free. Um, on the Internet. One is, um, a little booklet called Homosexuality in the Bible by Walter Wink. And I have this as a PDF that anyone can, um, email me if you would like a copy. But you can also just google it. And it is, um, available on the on the web. [00:10:30] So if you're in a situation where you're going home for the holidays, if you're a student and you know that you're going to, um, encounter those kind of awkward Christmas dinner conversations where somebody's going to find out that you're involved in marriage, equality and your, um, great uncle is going to say something obnoxious, you could just give him a copy of this because it really, um it's it's free, and it's easy, but and you have a read of it first because it does just deal with exactly the same stuff that I'm saying. about what's [00:11:00] what, what the biblical texts are actually addressing and what they're not. And the other one, you can download. It's called, um, what the Bible says and doesn't say about homosexuality. And it's, um, pro produced by a wonderful organisation called Soul Force. And their website is really worth having a look at, um, not what the Bible says. [00:11:30] They do a lot of great work, Um, in in kind of nonviolent action. And the picture on the front, um of this booklet is showing people standing outside a church assembly, holding, um, photographs of gay and lesbian people who have suffered as a result of what the church has done. So they they're very activist in the sort of Martin Luther King, [00:12:00] um, style of nonviolent activism being out there and calling churches that continue to hurt people and to cause damage to account. But they also have another little book, and they cover a lot of the same texts. And just with the same information in terms of marriage itself, um, the what have you can Can you tell me some of the things that you've heard people say about marriage? Have you heard religious claims about marriage. [00:12:30] Right? Let's just write some of this down. Yeah? Yeah. Or a main one. It's interesting, too, isn't it? What's that? Last one? Wife or wives? Right. But you don't tend to hear religious people making that argument, do you? This is our response [00:13:00] to Family Life International and their submission. And this was made by a Catholic couple said that, um, marriage was natural. It was the biological imperative. Um, I have to discuss with them later. You know, same relations and and and with animals. But anyway, so, yeah, they sort of were saying that anything that isn't man and wife is unnatural. By definition, it's unsafe for Children because it doesn't have that natural. Um, [00:13:30] 47. So that it's kind of been unchanged for a long time. Yeah, it seems to be very popular. They quote Matthew 1946 about, um, marriage between one woman and a man. One woman, one man without actually reading the full chapter, which is about divorce. So for the protection of Children, right. And that was made for it. Thank [00:14:00] you very much. Yeah. Yeah, OK, they get I had a point over there. So, um I like the recent one. what is that? The two men two men line next to each other. They shall be stone. And yet we've had the, [00:14:30] um, the US legal reforms where they get legalised marijuana and yeah, yeah, So I thought I thought another. In terms of responding to that, you probably are. You know, you've probably already started to think through this. I mean, it's I, um the local Catholic priest presented just after Saint Andrews on the terrace. Um, did the submission the other [00:15:00] day. And he, um he said, You know, the the procreation argument, which is very common, um, with the Catholic response and the the select committee pushed him a little bit and said, You know, what if somebody, um, was unable to have Children and he said, Well, at least they have the potential to have Children. And one of the, um, people on the committee said, Well, what if someone's had ovarian cancer? If the woman's had ovarian cancer and they know they can't have Children and he said, Well, at least she had the potential to have Children when she was born. Um, you know, so it's it's a It's a pretty, um, [00:15:30] limited argument. And I think they know that, too. I mean, I think it is, um, you know that they're aware of the limits of that. So, um and you know, you you do get the, um well, the concern that, you know, we somehow if we, um, allow same sex marriage, then all these straight people will have same sex marriages, and the the population will decrease. And that, I mean, that kind of goes back to that, um, biblical understanding of, you know, during the earth and go forth and multiply. And [00:16:00] I think, you know, people of faith can think more deeply than that. And we can look at the world that we're in now, Um, which isn't a flat world, um, you know, flat earth with a dome shaped heaven over the top of it. Um, so we make different decisions about what's an ethical imperative for us, but I think if you look at, you know, people do know about the the multiple wives and things. But really, what you see in the biblical accounts of relationships is a tremendous change over time. You know, these [00:16:30] people were nomadic people and then they were settled people. And then, you know, um, then they went through a period of dispossession, and so marriage has changed. And, you know, they changed depending on whether people were poor people, Um, whether they were sort of in danger of losing their livelihood and their land or whether they were wealthy people. And then they then, you know, marriage was often about political alliances. And that kept going through, you know, the 1st, 2000 years of Christian tradition as well that marriage [00:17:00] historically, um, has had a great deal to do with politics with, you know, alliances between families, Um, and and not a lot to do with the things that we think are crucial for marriage. So what you what you see, um, really is that the unions that are described in the Bible are different, depending on different times and places. And they evolve in kind of tandem with other cultural and political shifts that are going on that are described and even I mean a a lot [00:17:30] of the ones that seem really bizarre to us, like polygamy and sort of being forced to marry a woman having to marry her husband's brother if he dies. Those kind of things they do. They are part of the older, um, tribal nomadic traditions. But even in the New Testament, there's real ambivalence about marriage. And marriage is not the, um, you know, husband, wife, and 2. 4 kids and a dog. Mean marriage was, um, was often, um, kind of discouraged [00:18:00] in the in in the early New Testament time. And we've been told now that everybody kind of is obliged to to marry and procreate. But Saint Paul said that people should marry rather than burn. And that was, um, burned with passion. Um, so it was a way of sort of controlling human sexuality and also, um, one of the questions that came up. One of the things that we've said in our submission from ST Andrews to the Select Committee is that, um, there's really silence on [00:18:30] same sex marriage and scripture. Um, it's just not addressed, and we can't We can't find any support for it. And we can't find any condemnation of it because it's just simply outside of the, um, prerogative outside of the possibilities, um, for that community to think about and one of the, um, people on the select committee? Asked the Saint Andrews on the terrorist submitter. Um, you know, why would you assume that from silence? There was approval. And I think our perspective [00:19:00] on that is that when there is silence and there's silence on so many important ethical questions, I mean genetic engineering, Um, you know, nuclear war, all sorts of things that were just not part of the world view. Then we have to look for other ways of interpreting Scripture, and I think that's what's not getting through. Because if you look at the the method that Christians need that I believe that Christians need to use, um it's it's to look at the sort of overarching themes of Scripture like love and justice. [00:19:30] And I thought, I really think that justice should be the basis of how we make decisions about whether same sex marriage is to be valued by our society or not. And I don't just mean justice in a kind of, you know, treating people equally, but a sort of visionary justice about the kind of society that we want, where people are welcome and included and able to become, um, who they need who they are called to be. I could tell you quite a lot about the history of marriage, [00:20:00] um, after biblical times. But I, I think the point is just to to be aware of the diversity of the tradition and to be aware that to be a person of faith doesn't mean that people will hold homophobic ideas and that one of the things somebody, um, in a forum that some of us were at a we while ago accused me of hating the church, Um, and I I thought about it. I was kind of gobsmacked at the time. Um, but I thought about it afterwards, and I thought, actually, I love the church [00:20:30] enough to expect it to be the best that it can be to be what it's called to be by its founder, who was, um, Jesus. And for me, that means, you know, helping the church to be loving and just and, you know, focusing on things that really matter. And I. I think there's so much more that's threatening to society than same sex marriage. I think, um, economic injustice is probably the most thing to our society. Lack of a living wage and benefit reforms [00:21:00] that are punitive. I mean, those are things that are a threat to the family. And, um, I'm quite pleased that not only the ST Andrews on the terrace submitting on this piece of legislation, but next week some of us are going to submit on the benefit reform legislation and about the kind of values that underline, um, a piece of legislation that seeks to make some people lesser members of our society. So I love the church, um, enough to really want it to be much better [00:21:30] than it can be. And but I am really aware of the damage that's still done. And I said that in the previous session about people who are continually to actively persecuting gay and lesbian people because of their sexuality. I know that we've still got a lot of work to do. Sometimes I would just I'm just think I should just walk away. It's just, you know, so awful some of the stuff that happens. But then I think actually, the person who I've been talking to who doesn't live in Wellington found me because Saint Andrews is visible about this issue and they knew [00:22:00] that they could talk through issues of faith and sexuality and be supported. So I think that's what we're called to be. So I really want us to have a discussion about some of these things, so I'll stop talking in just a second. But one of the things I just wanted to flag that I'm really interested in, um, trying to find in terms of alliances is I think, that there are. It's very clear that there are huge. There are a significant number of Christians who are supportive of this, um, within our church with the Presbyterian [00:22:30] Church, which is not very liberal at the moment. In this stage of its life. A quarter of the people at at our General Assembly were supportive of marriage equality, and 75% were were not, which seems terrible. But the assembly is a pretty, um, conservative, you know, not fully representative part of our church. And I think it's important that you that people keep realising that, you know, maybe it's a third or a quarter or whatever, depending on which part of the church we're looking at, that there really are people, um, who need encouragement from [00:23:00] us as a campaign to kind of come out as Christians, um, who have an alternative view and that we won't achieve that by, um, belittling their faith. Um, we'll achieve that by sort of helping them be the best, um, people of faith that they can be so II. I want to really encourage a civil conversation around this. I get personally frustrated and pissed off, um, with people who say, say, stupid and homophobic things. But I think it is really important that we engage. Um, you know, with respect [00:23:30] with people who who differ to us and, um and really, um, find a way forward. And so this brings me to the last thing I want to say in terms of campaigning. And, um, thinking through this is I think there's a piece of the alliance that's missing in a in New Zealand that, um, people in the States have done better on, and I read about this, particularly in Maryland in the United States, which is one of the states that recently voted for marriage equality and two of the people who were most significant in their multimillion dollar, [00:24:00] I must say, um, ad campaigns around marriage equality were two Baptist ministers, and they spoke on in the television interviews as people who were who did not believe theologically in same sex marriage. They were, uh, their their personal understanding of what marriage is meant, that it was between a man and a woman. However, they spoke passionately about the rights of people who believed differently than they did, um, to have access to civil marriage. And [00:24:30] that's a voice that I don't think we've heard in the New Zealand conversation yet. So I think we all go to the place to our families and then, you know, around the the country in the, um in the summer and talk to the our relatives who are still religious and find out, um, if there are people who can help us build that alliance, because I think there is a lot of fear and anxiety. It's been it's been cultivated by particular people who want to make people of faith afraid. But I think those voices of people, um who can just help [00:25:00] people understand that you know, we can hold our religious beliefs. Um, I mean, they're different than my religious beliefs, Um, but that they can hold those beliefs, but not seek to impose them on people who hold other religious beliefs or people who hold no religious belief when what we're looking at is a civil marriage issue so that that's what I want to say at the moment, I'd really be happy to hear other people's contributions. Yeah, OK, um uh Kay Jones. I'm [00:25:30] a member of five faith communities. Um, and we're in the and that's partly because with world religions, if you sort of go across, um, sort of all of them there's more in common with issues like compassion, kindness, um, caring for each other. And And I have friends who are a friend who is a Hindu lesbian and another who's an Islamic, a Muslim lesbian. They're in a relationship together. I mean, they obviously have to deal with those sort of issues within their community. So within each faith community, there are going [00:26:00] to be LGBT people and families. Um, I was one of the drafters of the Unitarian Church of Wellington, um, submission in support of the bill which has been presented to the Select Committee that was endorsed by the Auckland Group. Some of the issues that we raised in our submission were respect. New Zealand has a statement of religious diversity that, um supports freedom of religious belief so [00:26:30] that Unitarians, Quakers and a number of other progressive, um, faith communities want to offer same sex marriages as part of their rights. So for any conservative religious group to say no, you can't that actually goes against that whole respect for other religions. Respect for the, um for marriage as a commitment between two people. That's another thing that the Unitarians, um, holds to respect for human rights. That's [00:27:00] what the Unitarians have now for those who don't know if the Unitarians instead of a Trini in church, which is God, Father, you know, and and Jesus that all three of them together the well, you know, sort of God and and Jesus has all been one sort of grouping. Um, Unitarians tend to have a belief, in some cases in up God, respect for Jesus as a as a human who is blessed. But you have atheist Unitarians. You have pagan Unitarians. It's more about discussion [00:27:30] to find the truth. And so another thing that we cited was respect for science and all of the science on things like, um, parenting. Um, sort of bringing up Children internationally. Um, it claimed that gay and lesbian couples are absolutely as good parents as any straight couples. Um, part of our submission included the attachment from the American Psychological Association. Um, 96 pages, um, of the research summarising in saying that [00:28:00] you know, sames couples are just as good at parenting. There was the decision of the third Court District Court of Florida saying they have heard so many, um, bad parent arguments that they're not going to hear anymore. They're just saying as a statement, same sex couples are just as good and they can be better than biological parents if they're looking after the Children. So those are some scientific basis of, um, our submission, which can be made available. But anybody who wants to get a copy just see me afterwards. So I'm just saying this is the Unitarian Church [00:28:30] submission to the committee. The Quakers of um, New Zealand have put in a submission also very brief. One pager basic human rights. They supported the couple who signed that submission. Um, are two women who met within, um, the Quaker Church. Um, and they are now in a civil union with each other, but they in their community would like that to be a marriage. So this is another. There's lots of people of different faiths who all say we want to be able to embrace our [00:29:00] LGBT, um, parishioners and families and offer, um, marriage if those people want it. And I, I think that's, um, it is important to, um, recognise that there are people of faith who feel at the moment that the state is limiting our ability to practise our faith. And we we believe that at Saint Andrews, because we would we have officiated, um, at quite a number of civil unions since the Civil Union war came. And we [00:29:30] we are able to offer marriage and civil unions to the straight couples in our community, but only civil union to gay couples. And so it's actually like the state is kind of limiting our freedom of religion at the moment. So it's not just other religious groups, but at the moment, the state is kind of privileging one particular view, Um, theological view and the state's got no business in doing that. And I was, um, really grateful to the people who submitted. I did, um, a longish submission [00:30:00] for Christians for marriage equality. That sort of dealt with some of the technical and theological, um, arguments. But the people from ST Andrews just came and talked about our community. And, um, one of them was 87 years old, and her son, um, her only son had died of aids. Um, and at a time when he couldn't come out fully to their family and they dealt with, um, this woman's husband, who's since died, dealt with it by saying to the relatives that he had cancer, and [00:30:30] the relatives that knew, um were pretty hostile and referred to him as a pervert. Um, but she also honoured the love that he had received from the gay community from people who, you know, really knew how to love and be friends. But then she talked about coming to Saint Andrews and as a mother. At that stage, she hadn't been able to speak out for her son, um, because of her husband's views. But what she wanted to do now was to speak out in solidarity for gay and lesbian people who did want marriage. [00:31:00] That was a really powerful story. And then the other woman who spoke quite much younger, um, not quite 30. And she and her partner have just had a baby who was being, um, breastfeed in order to be kept quiet. Um, in the in the seats of the select committee And they had, um they had, um, had their relationship blessed at Saint Andrews. They had a civil union, and their baby had been baptised in our congregation just a few weeks earlier. And it was really wonderful because the parents were there [00:31:30] at the bats and making promises, as was the donor dad and his wife and their two Children. Kind of all up, um, at around the font together. You know that that's what we witness to. That's you know, when we do that because of our faith, Um, so for the state to sort of stop us, being able to be fully equal is a real problem for us, and we we really want it changed. So are there other people? I'm sorry. I shouldn't, um every time someone says something, I think if I think of things, so let's Yeah, one of the really interesting [00:32:00] things about just having this whole debate with Bill and all the debate that it sort of is to ask, as a society what we think marriage really means. And I think one of the most fundamental questions is, Is religion a part of that is some religious element. You know, one of the things you need to take off before you can say what you've got is an act. I mean, I personally, I don't think so personally. For me, marriage is a commitment between two people who love each other to support each other for the rest of their lives. And there's no religious element either. Which way about it? Um, and [00:32:30] the question. And I think that is kind of the social view that I I see I may be wrong and people may disagree. But I see is sort of the direction in which New Zealand and similar countries are going, which I think raises another issue, which is, if we have one civil sort of LA definition of marriage. Can other definitions within religious groups that are still practised and protected by the state privately can they continue to exist? You know, if we are the state that says this is what marriage means. Anyone who is in a couple who loves each other can apply for a marriage licence. [00:33:00] That's what we call a marriage, as the state does that indirectly threaten religious groups who do legitimately believe that it's between men and women. And is that a problem? Because I can see where people from religious groups are coming from when they say this bill harms us because it's kind of the state saying This is what we now think a marriage is and people who legitimately don't believe that might get that sort of culturally forced in and sort of How do you respond to that which I can empathise with? I wouldn't, you know, get lose any sleep over that, becoming the position. But at the same time, I understand [00:33:30] I think people are coming from. I think that's one of the hard things, and I think you know it. It's hard to help people because New Zealand is such a secular country. The whole sort of place of religion within our wider society is kind of unclear, and we do need to keep having these conversations. I mean, my response is that it doesn't take away because people and I wish we had. And I know they're talking about, you know, beyond marriage and there. But I really wish we had been colonised by people other than the UK people on this. [00:34:00] Because if we'd had a European system, that's exactly what would happen is that you would go to everybody, has to go to a registry office and, um, get legally married. And then if you want to have either a secular or a spiritual or a religious celebration, you go off and do that afterwards. And if we had that, I think we wouldn't have the kind of anxiety that we have now. So it's a bit maybe we're just kind of beginning to untangle that mess that we've got. You know, as a minister, I'm automatic of the Presbyterian [00:34:30] Church. I'm automatically a marriage celebrant. So I have I'm authorised by the state to do this, and it seems really, really strange. Um, but if I could just jump in there, um, one of the weddings I recently went to was at a Greek Orthodox church and part of the information given to all the people there is you do not have an automatic right to be married within that church, you have to first be a member of that congregation and secondly, be approved to have that that marriage celebrated there. So it's not even within a [00:35:00] straight couple. It's not automatic. You can't just bowl up. And that is a particular, um, a set of rights that do not, in fact, allow either the husband or the bride to speak at the wedding service. All the speaking is done for them, and they have to promise to have Children as soon as possible, and it's like it's very tightly controlled. And that's within the current laws. And it won't change when the bill goes through. With the changing attitudes of of society [00:35:30] to to marriage and I. I know that sometimes, especially with some of the arguments from family. First, it's this weird blend of religious and also secular arguments to do with natural definitions and such. Um, an argument I find useful is to look at the status of, uh, especially the life within a relationship. There was this really weird moment in New Zealand history, Um, in 18 83 where a man tried to sue his wife for stealing from him, and the court found that legally, he couldn't do that because the [00:36:00] wife was his property and someone's property can't steal from herself, which was very, you know, it was 10, 10 years later, you know, when we're enfranchised and it just kind of like for me that that's an illustration of how very different religious influence, I suppose, like theories of marriage but also that became secular have also changed. So perceptions are changing and, you know, I mean, in the seventies, it was still there was still no such thing as rape and marriage, and it was assumed [00:36:30] that if you signed that form, you were giving away your sexual self determination. Two things I'd like to say, really. First of all, I'd like to acknowledge the support I've had from church communities up in, which is a rural town. It's quite a small place, but, um, I can't go down to the market without people coming up and shaking my hand and giving me a hug, you know, from faith communities. So really, I would say Don't put them all in one basket. Every Christian is an individual. They all have different beliefs, and it's quite incredible. [00:37:00] The amount of support that I've seen coming in from that want to talk a little bit about what marriage really means to me. I was married up at ST Matthew's in the city, and Glen Cary is again somebody who's been incredibly supportive and really helpful. I think what you can't do is limit marriage, and I think what's really important about what's happening here is you're opening that marriage up. Marriage is between two people, and it's a commitment they make together. It's not easy. Hey, living in any relationship is not easy. [00:37:30] I know something that was important to me. I am a Christian. Was that when I stood up in front of that congregation and my partner stood up in front of that congregation and we talked to that congregation. We made our promises in front of all our friends and asked for all their help in terms of our marriage and bringing up Children. And I think that's something that is just amazing and something that marriage provides as a commitment to each other. It doesn't always work OK, sometimes it's hard. [00:38:00] I still work at it, every day, and I'm very, very happily married. But I think it's that commitment you make in front of other people. Certainly, for me, that is the element. And in front of your spirituality and your God, whatever that spirituality is, that's really important. Um, James Barron, Wellington Central Baptist Um, yeah, it's an interesting conversation, and it's it's something as a denomination, I think the Baptist Church is playing catch up with, um unfortunately, [00:38:30] we do have, um It's quite an independent nature of a body, and we have a number of pastors who tend to go off half cock. Might be putting it mildly. Um, but the interesting things I've heard coming back to me is is I pass this writing back and saying, Look, you know, we've been reading up on this because this conversation is happening. We're looking at it and particularly looking at things like, um, are we [00:39:00] gonna be forced to marry same sex couples? And they're they're looking at the the, um, legal opinion and the information which is out there, and they're saying, Well, no, we haven't had all that many atheists we've been forced to marry recently. Um, you know, it it's Yeah, it's it's self selecting. Um, and it's not something we have to do. Anyway. The nature of it is much the same as as you mentioned about the the other churches there. Yeah, um, if you're wanting to get married within that denomination, [00:39:30] you're you're a member of that denomination. So, um, the interesting thing is, it's a, uh, a look we're having back at at the conversation. And the more we look at the conversation, it's, um, what? These you know, people are shooting on helicopter. Saying is actually an antithesis of what? Um, the broad church and what the, um the things which we at course subscribe [00:40:00] to like soul liberty are about, um, trying to prescribe that your Christian belief means that a tenant of your Christian belief is that you do not believe in same sex marriage is ridiculous. Um, you know, it's it's going back. Um, not too many years ago. Um, people will be quoting scriptures about, um that women should stay silent in the church. We've managed to get past that, thank goodness. [00:40:30] But, um, it's a conversation that that, um, is going on. And hopefully, um, I know the the fear, I think is, is in 15 years time the the church will be looking back and saying, Oh, we remain silent on this. Um, must means we were tacitly in support. Unfortunately, that's not the way the gay and lesbian community will remember it, because that's not the way it is. Um, but it's it's a it's an ongoing conversation. So, uh, bear with us [00:41:00] and you've got that that parallel to that. You've got legislation say, um, outlawing discrimination on race based, uh, basis both in New Zealand and the US. But just last year, a Baptist pastor refused to marry a mixed race couple, um, in a church in Mississippi. Now that's, you know, something that there was outcry about. But that couple didn't sort of keep challenging it in that church they went to to a different church. Everybody was horrified and and sort [00:41:30] of was was quite, you know, justified. So but that was still something that happened within that legal framework, and it's like you'd think they'd moved on, and actually it was more bizarre than that. They weren't a mixed race couple. They were a black couple. There were two different ones. OK, well, the one I'm thinking about. They refused to marry an African American couple in the white church. And there the things you're talking about, you know how we've changed. I think that's really important to draw people's attention to because despite the Anglicans in [00:42:00] the UK failing to acknowledge women bishops, um, generally, you know women's equality within a lot of Protestant churches is pretty much done and dusted, and nobody is having these conversations. And the Catholics are still needing to start that conversation. And the previous pope said they weren't to talk about it. So But if you look, I mean apartheid in South Africa, there were, you know, that was biblically grounded in the eyes of people who supported that. And, you know, there were people, Christian people who advocated [00:42:30] passionately for the end of slavery like WWW William Wilberforce. But there were equally Christians who who believed that, you know, God made humans some slaves and some not. And so as Christians. We've got a great deal of history to make us extremely humble about the kind of claims that we we want to make. Yeah, uh, John Morgan, past member of the Saint Andrews on the church congregation and future member, too. Now the 10 o'clock on a Sunday morning going to changes in the new flat Suns streams and through the [00:43:00] through the window window in the morning. And I think I'll find getting to Saint Andrews by 10 on a Sunday morning, which has been the only problem. Nothing to do with theology. Getting to Saint Andrews by 10 on the Sunday morning. The problems that presents metabolism were the only reason I haven't been going nothing to do with theology. Whatever, Um, when in the 1986 bill campaign, I went out to the church Saint David's Britannia Street, returning where my parents got married on the 19th of July 1942 together with somebody else, I got an entirely sympathetic reception. Um, [00:43:30] and I think many other people, the large numbers of people who went in peers to, um, to church, to church meetings, uh, to church services, parish meetings. Uh, in the bill campaign, got a pretty polite hearing. I think our opponents, who we should at all times drink with respect because that's basically the Christian religion, Mad as they plainly are, um, uh uh, we must treat our opponents with respect. Uh, I think at all times as crazy as most of them obviously are. [00:44:00] Um, but I think that the average person on the in the pews I think our court has got a lot of respect among a sympathy and respect among discourse in in church gatherings tends to be dominated. One thank goodness by people of our orientation. And two very, very badly by by by the opposition. Uh, but I think the average person on the parish of Pew, I think there's a great deal of sympathy, uh, for our position. And if we try, uh, [00:44:30] relating to the Christian community on the assumption that they're hostile towards our course, that's politically inept, politically inept because it's not the case. OK, OK, well, just another thing. We've talked more about Christian faith communities in this gathering, probably because there's more of us for whom that's the heritage. But the other faith communities in New Zealand and they're increasing in number because we're getting to be more cosmopolitan. [00:45:00] I think even within those there are mixed, um, sort of, you know, gender and sexual orientations within the parishes, but they're not as used to talking about it. That doesn't mean that they're always hostile, but they will probably be far less likely to become come out publicly and sort of say yes. We support the the the bill. Um, the same way. At the last night session, Lewis was saying that within the Pacific community, she gets a lot of individuals coming up to her saying, Yeah, they totally support what [00:45:30] she's doing. But, no, they're not going to go against the community leaders because that would be seen as being disrespectful to the So it's It's a difficult one to sort of. Actually, you know you want you want these people to to speak out, but they they won't always do that. So I mean, the the main thing, I suppose, is sharing, um, support for each other, and and, um, that that discussion, Um and also I suppose those who are sympathetic trying to help break down the fear and ignorance of those who don't know any better. When [00:46:00] can we, um, sing back? She it, um, asked Des and John Joli which of you is the husband and which the wife, Um, it didn't sound like he was actually making nasty points. It sounded like he was just ignorant and didn't know any better. So that those people who know a little bit more being able to share within their communities will be quite a helpful thing. You know that queer people are not. And somebody told me last night that, um, somebody has found a statement from the Sikh community [00:46:30] in Canada that is supportive of marriage equality. So get that kind of information out and support people who want to speak to their own communities because there's no point in me going along as a raving liberal Protestant, Um, Christian. I mean, I I'm not gonna have the entree into that community, but I can support, um, people who are able to go and talk to their to their own communities. I was, I was gonna say, I think I don't think there's a tension at all in theory between religious groups and [00:47:00] gay causes. And I think, um, that provided, um that we keep advancing the gay laws as we've done by sharing stories and things like that. Then religious objections will sort of dissipate along with that, um, and that you know, it's not based really, the objection isn't really based on religious dogma that you often use religious dogma to support what are really the sort of fears that are just granted him or lack of understanding of sexuality. And so you increase that education and understanding and the objections, I [00:47:30] think. And I think that you know, that sort of religious self defence stuff about knowing about biblical stuff. That's one part of it that's useful if you need to have those kind of conversations. But the real the thing that really makes it A as somebody said this morning, as Conrad said, It's the hard stuff. It's it's when you know gay. When conservative Christian families realise that they've got a gay kid, um, that it sometimes is making a difference. Sometimes the reaction is still terrible, and you know the damage that's caused by that is is still really painful and awful. But I think that [00:48:00] gradually, as people have the courage to come out and you know, have a community to surround them, that will make a difference to those communities because at the moment there is so much fear and some, you know, really conservative religious groups, extremely religious conservative religious groups can often live in a very tight little world view where the books they read, the music they listen to the films they watch are all, you know, part of that culture. And so it is really hard to, you know, and they only hear, um, one particular [00:48:30] way of looking at things. So it is, you know, they don't watch regular television. Um, so it is really hard, um, to get, you know, a different perspective into those communities and gay people. Gay kids growing up in those communities need huge amounts of support because often when they come out, they are, you know, losing their family, their church, uh, their friends. And this is what's happened to this woman who I'm talking to Who's 50? Um, her, her church, her employment, Um, her friends. Everything was tied [00:49:00] up in that world, and they they believe it's their job to sort of get her back on the straight and narrow. And, you know, the the methods that they use to do that are just kind of meeting evil in in terms of persecution. And so I do think we need to be really compassionate and to be very visible about offering support to to such people. Um, but, you know, that's it comes out of compassion. You know, that's that's the most important thing about our faith that that many faiths share Anyone else got. [00:49:30] Like, I'm I'm also up for any kind of, um, oppositional, um, view about, you know, um, faith and sexuality, too. I have two. But, um, firstly, I wanted to thank you, um, for your speech, The faith for a few weeks ago. Um, it was really helpful. Um, especially dealing with the conservative father, Um, and sharing that information with him. Um, but I suppose, um, II I really struggle [00:50:00] with the fact that religion, especially the conservative religion, um, it it seems unnatural not to be so accepting. And so, you know, that's so discriminating. I don't understand why they would do such a thing When, um, you know, it's all meant to be about love and respect of each other, and I guess to to, um, to talk with you some respect, Um, is that you know that we're [00:50:30] here and we you know, the whole point of our community. I would like to open the whole point of conferences to be inclusive and welcoming and accepting, regardless of who you are. And I hope that that message gets through to, um, the communities, I think I mean, I. I feel very perplexed about the the unkindness and the judgmentalism and the narrowness, um, of some religious responses and I, I do think actually, you [00:51:00] know, people who study religion and the state that religion is in at the moment. This is my belief and not not not all Christians would hold to this. Um, but I think we're in a period a bit like the Reformation, which is when the, um, Protestant church broke away from the Catholic Church and wanted a kind of renewal That was, um, less institutional and back to kind of recovering some of the messages of the Bible and that, um that also let priests marry and all sorts of huge amounts of huge upheaval that was kind of connected to the politics and the [00:51:30] history as well. And I think we're going through a similarly huge upheaval at the moment in terms of religion, hopefully away from an emphasis on a god that's out there. Um, who kind of needs priests and, you know, mystery people to kind of connect with it to an everywhere God, um, and I think that's what most New Zealanders spirituality is already about. It's sort of seeing that, you know, the god that I see and you and you and you when we connect with one another. And, um, and in the beautiful place [00:52:00] that we are located. So, you know, I think that, um there will be less emphasis on doctrine. Um, as as religion emerges, um, and it's going to be hard for for some religions, probably more hard for, um, those that have got the sacred text, you know, which is sort of they think is telling them what to do. But there really is a kind of renewal movement that is about people getting in touch with spirit and compassion and and sort of working out what's really important. So I think that what you're referring to is kind of residual. Um, of [00:52:30] religion is control, and and it's been it's been part of our experience since, um, since constant. Since the Emperor Constantine became a Christian, um, in 300 something or other, um, up until the Christians had been sort of oppositional to the state people. They were martyred, and they refused to give allegiance to the imperial power. They were a really quite subversive group, Constant. The Emperor Constantine became a Christian, and I think it was very smart on his part because he sort of saw the Christians were a huge, you know, issue. [00:53:00] And so he used, um, He kind of absorbed them, and so so Christianity, instead of becoming a sort of voice from the outside that critiqued the power structure, became incorporated in it. And, you know, I think that we've gone, you know, nearly 2000 years, um, since then and kind of lost the impetus that was kind of radical and inclusive. And, um, and I but I think that people are recovering some of that, and, um, it's quite good. I'm really glad that I'm not the minister of a church with enormous social power, [00:53:30] as ministers would have been, you know, 50 years ago we belong on the margins, and that will hopefully help us I. I see it as being in in part a tension between religion being the church, the institution, the control that marriage was about property. This was sort of how you control people. This is how you regulate things. And religion has been about spirituality and the connection between people individually and this the spirit, the deity. That that whole community compassion, sort of love [00:54:00] thing. So that a church can be in both, um, sort of camps. But some, especially the hierarchical structure ones. And like the Vatican, with its incredible property ownership and the structures that are built up over time, sometimes there's too much emphasis on the institutional focus of of the religion and that people at our level grassroots, I mean, not yourself. You're somewhere in between. Ministry is is sort of, you know, parenting. Um, we see one end of [00:54:30] this tension and not the full ones. So it's It's I mean, I think it's playing out in the Anglican Church in the UK as well that there's the the control and the top down versus what the people at another level are wanting. And, yeah, it is coming to the fore. But are those of us who just want a spiritual space? I mean, I always encourage people if you live in a conservative church, but you still want that, um, connection within your life, There are other places that you can go to, you know, like in Wellington. You can go to Saint Andrews. You can go to by the welcoming parishes. Um, and wherever [00:55:00] people are, there will be a spiritual home for them. That may not be the more institutional controlling one. I wish that it was true for wherever people are. But it isn't true for a lot of New Zealand. Sadly so. But yeah, hopefully along the way. I just comment on, um, what you said before, Um, I grew up in quite a fundamentalist Christian environment. And so, um, from, like, why they, you know, in answer to your first question, um, kind of remember how you phrase it. I [00:55:30] think it's because, like, they see it as this is what God says, Um, and we're right. And, you know, nobody else can be right because we have the truth. We have the sole like, um, we're like the sole owners of the truth or something, and so you're closer to the truth if you're closer to what we think and you're further away, like I grew up with Catholics, are Christians So, um sorry Catholics, Um, and all sorts of other things. So I think that's kind [00:56:00] of what it comes down to is like we're right, You're wrong. Now shut up. Convert. Pretty much. But what I struggle with with religion is a focus on the abstract rather than a focus on the real. You know, I don't see any difference between a man and a woman in terms of their fundamental human nature who they are. I don't see any difference between a gay person and a straight person. And I think that's even, you know, from my own life experience, from talking to people from knowing people. And yet I see religious doctrines and dogma that are being upheld. That is completely fundamental to [00:56:30] that, and I just can't buy into that. But I think you're just your dogma is based on a view of human nature that's just fundamentally wrong. Why would I want to buy into that in any way? And so it's It's hard to form any sort of linked with association with sympathy for viewpoints that all those you know, some in some respects they're right in line with human nature in terms that the church is now speaking very broadly here, but the church's view of poverty and social support is right in line of power because we should act towards one another, but to hold completely [00:57:00] contrary views in other respects it because there are potential alliances. And I think often when I'm working across denominations or with people of other faiths that there are much better connections that we can make around, um, economic, justice, issues and environmental issues and all sorts of things. But this one is still a huge sexuality is still a hugely problematic and gender, too, you know, just that kind of idea of you know, how fixed male and female are. And, you know, um, when we we you know, [00:57:30] we have information to and experience to suggest otherwise and I think what you were saying about it the abstraction, you know that it's kind of like having this idea about how things should be and projecting that onto a world that actually doesn't fit it. Um, and it might have fitted it, you know. But even then, having said that, it might have fitted when you look at the way marriage and families have been organised through the, you know since the period since early Christianity. There's huge diversity in there, too. So women's roles, you know, [00:58:00] um, until the Industrial Revolution, women's roles were very, very active in an economic sense. You know, the the household. Everybody worked. Um, so you know that some of these ideas that we've got is sort of somehow fixed actually kind of reflect, um, a situation from the Maybe that maybe existed for a while in the 19 fifties in some Western countries. But, you know, it's never been a universal, absolute experience. I think something else. It's really important to realise, you know, just from my experience with the Catholic Church, I'm not a Catholic was that [00:58:30] it's also in a state of considerable conflict right now in terms of what people believe, and the way that their doctrine violates the basic tenants of actually being kind to people and being compassionate. So on the one side, you've got a compassionate God who will forgive all. And on the other side, you've got doctrine saying, Thou shalt not Thou shalt thou shalt not, and it's quite hard, I think, for Catholics to reconcile that they are [00:59:00] tied to this doctrine yet that's not really the way they live their lives. And I think they need support and that they need help, because they're really conflicted right now and unfortunately what that tends to do. Is it polarises opinion? That's a good point just picking up on that point. I, uh obviously I know quite a lot about individual MP S and their positions. And and some of the, um some of the MP S are are Catholic, either by practise [00:59:30] or or and and, uh, the when the pope has instructed the Catholic politicians specifically to oppose marriage, equality measures anywhere in the world. But I think that that fundamental conflict that that you're talking about between what they what they in in their in their human nature, must consider to to be their responsibility as human beings. [01:00:00] And that edict, I think is, is causing some really interesting dynamics. So I think of one person in particular. And there are There are several ps who are doing this who have invented an entirely spurious reason for not voting for marriage equality rather than having to defend the Catholic Church's position. Um or rather at least the Catholic [01:00:30] churches edict to them. Um, very interesting reason that it's my constituents don't agree with that. Oh, no, no, that that would have some Some superficial, you know, sense to tell you. The one that I think of is, um, someone who is arguing that actually, the problem is adoption. There's no problem at all with the with the with the relationships themselves. But that, uh, it is already [01:01:00] difficult for single people to adopt. They are effectively at the end of the queue when it comes to adoption. And if this bill goes through, there will be another category of couples. Um, who he considers will be a head of single people when it comes to adopting. So it'll be harder for single people to adopt and therefore he should oppose this bill. It's impossible to imagine that [01:01:30] anyone actually would hold that position as a serious rationalisation. Meanwhile, we suspect that the Catholic Church isn't particularly hot on single people adopting Children either. Yeah, and people in general, I had a weird conversation. I had a really weird conversation with Paul Henry on the same sort of topic, and he said basically, his argument boiled down to the fact that there are too many loving couples in the world [01:02:00] and not enough Children to go around, which I just really struggled to to grapple with. It's like, Why are we increasing competition for Children? Well, surely that's a great thing. Surely a wider body of you know great parents is is better. But and the reality is that you know most of the gay people that want to adopt Um, it's about, you know, adopting a child, Um, that's come from another relationship or, um, through assisted reproductive means. And to have that child, you know, fully recognised, as you know, legally having two parents, I mean, [01:02:30] and that's one of the things that it seems odd that, you hear is if there's suddenly going to be this whole, you know, massive adoption, you know, stranger adoption thing, which isn't really an issue at all in New Zealand because there's hardly any Children who are adopted, but and all sorts of other complex family relationships do need legal recognition and protection, which they said, you know, currently don't get opposition to gay. Adoption is such a fast, though, because you never hear the people that say gay couples shouldn't adopt, say gay individuals who can adopt should no longer be able to. [01:03:00] And yet when they form a union, they somehow becomes. I think a lot of people don't understand that gay individuals can adopt the other thing. That was like, you know, when I was speaking to the board about this was you know, a lot of gay parents actually started out as heterosexual parents, and they just don't seem to get that, you know? And they haven't changed. They're the same people. But suddenly they're not the same. Yeah, I mean, that's my situation. I was married and had a child, [01:03:30] and now you know, my young adult son is, you know, he spent from age nine to how old he is now in his twenties, being looked after by me and my female partner. But he still has a great relationship with his dad and his dad's de facto female partner. Um, he's, you know, he's loved by by four people. Um, so I think Yeah, exactly. Yeah, And I ask about that. Too many parents. Um, but, you know, it's just that's the kind [01:04:00] of reality that sort of that is what gay parenting is is about. There's all sorts of, you know, ways this happens, but we are We already exist as families, and there are Children who need to have this kind of social and cultural recognition that I think marriage can be. And still, you know, even I mean sometimes. So I find myself amazed as a seventies feminist that I am, you know, standing up here in the two thousands and tens defending marriage, which I, you know, completely critiqued, um, as a younger woman. Um, what I'm advocating is people's right to choose [01:04:30] marriage. Um, but I think, you know, for for so many people that the things that I was concerned about in the seventies that you know, things like the rape within marriage, um, was not, you know, recognised, um, that it was hard for a woman to get a chequebook. Um, you know, the bank wouldn't let you sign, um, for a mortgage, all those kind of things that just seem so I think you know, for most of you who are younger, just kind of you can't believe that, um, that sort of stuff was going on, you know, a couple of decades before you were born. So I think the you know, the good thing about all of this is that marriage [01:05:00] is changing in a really good way. And I, you know, as somebody who kind of was enthusiastic about civil unions because they weren't marriage, I'm now seeing that I. I now understand that, you know, marriage is continually evolving civilly and religiously, and that what it stands for for a lot of people today is it's really good stuff, um, about commitment. And I think about this the thing you were talking about, Nigel, about that public commitment. And so many people have told me, you know, either through marriage or civil union that standing up there and making [01:05:30] a vow to their partner in the presence of those who they love, um, it does make a difference to them, You know it, shouldn't it? You know, it's been an important moment in their lives. Um, and it and it's held them, um, through some tough times And it you know, as you say, it doesn't work like that for everybody. Um, and not every marriage is or civil union is going to endure. But there is something I think There's kind of been a human wisdom that marriage is sort of born through all of the centuries of inequality [01:06:00] and politics and economics, which has been that, you know, we're not alone. We're not meant to live alone. And even as couples, we can't be alone. We're part of a network and society, um, and that we need to be, you know, part of a community. We are relational people. And so my relationship with my partner is sustained by our love for each other, but also by the community. Um, that we're part of by our family and our friends and in our case, by our church. And so I think that wisdom has endured, um, so that marriage [01:06:30] is actually becoming something quite a lot more wonderful than it was 20 or 30 years ago. And I you know, I think that's, um, a really rather brilliant thing. And I think I, um I was gonna tell you about one other great resource. If you want to read some more about This is my friend Marvin Ellison, who's a theological teacher in Maine. In the US has written same sex marriage, a Christian ethical analysis and one of the things I love about his analysis is that he thinks that straight people have been queering marriage for the last [01:07:00] 30 years or so. He's saying that marriage, it's straight People who have changed the nature of marriage by, um, by divorce and by, um not having it so connected with Children but also by sort of claiming that it is about love and commitment and less about tradition and sort of con conformity. So it's not queer people that have done this to marriage. All these things that cause people to be anxious about marriage. It's, you know, straight people who have evolving marriage. And I think they've got done such a reasonable job that we queer people are now considering that actually, this could [01:07:30] be worthwhile. So on that note, just before we close Margaret, I want to, um, expressed by a huge gratitude. And thanks to the role that you have performed and and not only in this debate, but actually over a number of issues and a number of number of years, Really? Um, because, uh, we would not be in the position that we are now, uh, of having the [01:08:00] sense of inevitability about succeeding with this campaign if it hadn't been for your work. And I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. I I'm part of a bigger community, but thank you very much.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089375
TITLE: Gay Liberation Movement - Marriage Equality Conference
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VOICES: Bill Logan; Ian Anderson; Kay Jones
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1960s; 1970s; Angela Davis; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bill Logan; Black Panthers; Builders Labourers Federation; Campaign for Marriage Equality; Club 41; Community House/Press Hall; Community Law (Wellington); Compton's Cafeteria riot (1966); Dewey's lunch counter sit-ins (1965); Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM); Dorian Society; Edward Carpenter; Gay Activists Alliance (GAA); Gay Liberation Front; Harvey Milk; Homosexual Law Reform Society; Ian Anderson; Kassie Hartendorp; Kay Jones; Leslie Feinberg; Marriage Equality Conference (2012); Marxism; Māori; National Gay Rights Coalition; National Gay and Lesbian conference (1972); New York City; Ngahuia Te Awekotuku; Oscar Wilde; San Francisco; Sisters for Homophile Equality (SHE); Socialist Action League; Stonewall Inn; Stonewall riots (1969); Street Transvestite Action Revolutionaries (STAR); Sylvia Rivera; United States of America; Venn Young; Vietnam War; Wolfenden report; activism; apartheid; biphobia; bisexual; civil rights; communism; feminism; gay; gay liberation movement; heteronormativity; history; homelessness; lesbian; marriage; marriage equality; police; revolution; takatāpui; transgender; unions; women; women's liberation movement; youth
DATE: 1 December 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Community House/Press Hall, 80 Willis Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Ian Anderson leads a discussion about the Gay Liberation Movement, beginning in the 1960s. [note some comments were removed because the were not picked up very well by the recorder]
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: OK, so I'm, uh I'm in. Uh, Casey will be coming by soon to facilitate this session. Um, but yeah. So this is, uh, just a sort of a historical look at, um, the the first visit of the wave of, um, the Gay liberation movement in the late sixties and the seventies. Uh, it's not supposed to be like a comprehensive look at queer history. It's that specific, um, gay liberation movement that called itself the Gay Liberation movement. Uh, but also looking into [00:00:30] some of the context of what created that and some of the implications that might have for us. So, um, uh, the, uh, it will be focused mainly on the US with, uh, with also some New Zealand content. Uh, and we've got people here who are involved in that movement at the time. Uh, so Bill and Bill and Kay were were involved around that time so we can have some historical discussion also in the, uh afterwards. Ok, so, um, so just looking [00:01:00] at the US and the, um the initial burst of what we now know as the gay liberation movement. Um, uh, it's important to look at the context. Um, so Stonewall is kind of seen as this defining movement moment and gay liberation. And it is. But look at what actually fit into that and what created it, Uh, and what interacted with it? So you had these wider mass movements for liberation? Um uh, African American civil rights movement, the black power movement as well, uh, movements [00:01:30] against apartheid, uh, internationally and against the Vietnam War. And you, you started to see the women's liberation movement emerge as well around the time of, like, the early seventies, beginning late sixties. Um, and, uh, and also feeding into this before before the, uh, the Stonewall riots. You had a couple of, um, major demonstrations along similar lines. So the, um uh, lunch counter sit ins, which was, um, basically in Philadelphia, Uh, like a popular [00:02:00] space for LGBT youth. But it wasn't an LGBT space. It was owned by homophobes. Um, but it was used by a lot of especially African American, uh, sort of queer youth. Uh, and the the estate the management banned, um, nonconformist clothing. Uh, so that led to a series of actions you had like, uh, hundreds of people showing up wearing nonconformist clothing, deliberately people got arrested. And then there was a series of pickets and sit ins to challenge this, Um, [00:02:30] but that, uh, that was 1965. And that's not as much in the sort of the established history. Uh, and then you've also got 1966 the Compton cafeteria riots, uh, which was, uh, particularly Trans woman police harassment. So, um, in a lot of ways quite similar to what ended up happening at Stonewall. Um, and all of this is leading into 1968 and 1969. We saw a massive global upsurge in struggle. You know, there was a there was an upsurge in [00:03:00] the West, but But that was like connected to movements that were happening, like, uh, in the Third World and various places, um, against, like, oppressive systems in general. Um, so then you got the stonewall riot in 1969 which was, which was? Towards the end of June. You had, uh, the Stonewall Inn, which was one of many again sort of queer spaces that weren't necessarily owned by queer people. Uh, in this case, the Stonewall Inn, which was actually [00:03:30] a mafia backed bar. But it had a lot of, um, sort of marginal patrons. So that included, like, a lot of a lot of trans women, a lot of a lot of gay youth. Um, just a lot of people who didn't necessarily fit in kind of thing. Who who had the space among a few others in New York. Um, and this was raided by police, which is a fairly regular thing. So it's not unusual that the police raid happened. What? What's unusual is the the fight back that happened, Um, which again was partly as we'll see in the next quote by [00:04:00] Sylvia Rivera, partly because people felt this was a time where they could sort of resist this kind of a thing. Um, so there's a There's a myth that, uh, Sylvia Rivera, who is a Latino, a trans woman who, um, has a lot to say about this particular event, uh, and is worth looking into, um, that she threw the first bottle. Uh, that's not her story. That's not how she tells it, but, um, but it's sort of part of the mythology. Um uh, and here is how she says it, um, so people can read it, but I'll just read it out as [00:04:30] well. So, um, she says, um, we were let out of the bath, and they cattle us all up against the police vans. Uh, the cops pushed us up against the grates and the fences. Uh, people started throwing pennies, nickels and quarters at the cops, and then the bottle started. And then we finally had the moral moral squad barricaded in the Stonewall building because they were actually afraid of us at that time. They didn't know we were going to react that way. We were not taking any more of this shit. We had done so much more for other movements. [00:05:00] It was time. Uh, it was street gay people from the village out front, homeless people who lived in the park and Sheridan square outside the bar and then drag queens behind them and everybody behind us. Um, all of us were working for so many movements at that time. Uh, everyone was involved with the women's movement, the peace movement, the civil rights movement. We're all radicals. I believe that's what brought it around. Uh, you get tired of just being pushed around. And that was an interview in A in a US socialist paper. Um, and it's [00:05:30] Yeah, I think it's quite it's really worth looking into What Sylvia Rivera and Leslie Feinberg have to say about the US, uh, liberation movement. Um, but yeah. So a key point there is it wasn't, uh It wasn't just gay men or something. It was a lot of a lot of queer and trans people, uh, who were involved in that, Um, and it was the most generally the most dispossessed who are at the front lines of that struggle. Um, it wasn't just because of particular establishment. Enforce [00:06:00] the law. And, um, lots of states that you were at least three of the right. So that's about the Jewish lunch counter. Sit cool. Thanks for that. Um, so about, um So then you had the foundation of the the Gay Liberation Front, Uh, the the first organisation known as the Gay Liberation Front. Uh, and that was that was in New York. Uh, I think in Greenwich Village. Um, very shortly [00:06:30] after the Stonewall riot, um, and activists were returning to the Stonewall Inn over, like, a series of nights. They were distributing leaflets. Um, and they formed this gay liberation front started organising marches, and obviously they were using their skills from general sort of independent struggles against depression. All this kind of thing. Um and so you see, slogans All power to the people. Um, stuff like that. Um, uh, and you saw groups. Then take that name, take the gay liberation front name, um, outside New York, [00:07:00] Uh, and outside the US, Um, and that grew to more than 80 chapters. Uh, and so the attention kind of emerged out of out of this particular struggle. Um, where the gay liberation front. I mean, they took their name partly from the the National Liberation Front in Vietnam, so they were aligning themselves with struggles against imperialism and against capitalism. And so, you see, in this, um, gay Liberation Front publication from London, I think, um, like, they use the image [00:07:30] of Shay and that kind of thing. Um, but they were also quite isolated from the old left, the the Stalinist parties and the organised workers movement. There were new left, um, groups that supported them. So, like they had a for example, in New Zealand, the Socialist Action League they had a relationship with, um they were also links even with, um uh, the Black Panthers and other groups. Um, And so anyway, um, uh, out of these initial gay liberation front groups, uh, Sylvia Rivera, [00:08:00] um, formed specifically, uh, a specifically trans group out of the gay liberation front called, um, uh, street transaction revolutionaries. Um, but there were people who were kind of dispirited with this kind of politics and would prefer to just focus on sort of gay concerns specifically. So, um, they formed their own group, which is the gay activist alliance, and they dropped their trans demands. Um, and they did begin to win some successes. Eventually, For example, the, um uh, getting [00:08:30] rid of the, uh, the classification and the, um you know, and the the DS M. And you start to see some legal victories happening. But there was a sort of a division between, uh, the the sort of more radical wing of the movement and the, um the more single issue wing, um and so this, uh, this did have an influence here. Um, we were We were a bit late to the party in terms of specifically gay liberation groups. Um, so uh, 1972 was kind of a key [00:09:00] year in terms of those those groups forming. Um, so there was the first, uh, national gay and lesbian conference was held. Um, uh, you had the formation of, uh, groups with taking that gay liberation front name. Um, across the country, um, they all formed in in the space of that year. Um, and they lasted for round about to about 78 to 79. Uh, and a lot of what galvanised that at the time was, um, for example, when, uh, [00:09:30] who was, uh, a sort of, uh, an activist. At that time, Uh, she was denied a visa to go to the US. Um, because she was seen as a known sexual deviant. She was actually going over to see the Black Panthers. So again, it was this, um, intermingling of kind of radical movements. Uh, that was happening, uh, in the, uh, in that period, Um, and, um, the gay liberation front groups were succeeded by other groups. So some of them you know, you had more regional groups. [00:10:00] Uh, a, uh you also had, like, um, uh, other groups concurrent like, um, sisters for Home of Equality. Which is she Uh, and even there was one, campaign for homosexual equality, which was before the group of the same name in 86. Uh, so that's, um, anyway, uh, but there was also, uh, there were also groups that preceded them. So particularly the Dorian Society. Um, which originally wasn't necessarily that political is my impression that it was more of a sort of a social [00:10:30] and a support group. Uh, and it originally only included men. Um, but it sort of developed, um, particularly with the political struggles that were happening and it developed into the homosexual law Reform society eventually. Um um, evening. Um, there were where deal could be done to the women to [00:11:00] to Yeah, it developed as the as the women's liberation movement. The gay liberation movement developed it. It changed. The Dorian Society did change. Um, yeah. Um, So, uh, yeah. So you saw some law reform bills proposed during this period. So in 1974 was the young young bill, um, and also in 1979. But they had, uh, different ages of consent for same sex couples. And one of them also, uh, had an amendment. The [00:11:30] Wall amendment, which said, um, that homosexuality was legal, but it was illegal to promote it. So, um, it ended up being in 1979 that the National Gay Rights Coalition, which is kind of where obviously all these various groups met. Um uh, they actually lobbied MP S to oppose the bill. Um, and they used the slogan, uh, we're not prepared to accept anything less than full equality. Uh, so, basically, if they hadn't done that, um, I think the age of consent was 20 in that bill. We now have a different age of consent for same sex couples. [00:12:00] Unless they've been, you know, further reform. But yeah. Um, so, yeah, um, so that's, uh, well moved very briefly through the New Zealand stuff. Because, like I said, I thought it would be good to have some discussion with people who actually experienced it, um, in this country. But, uh, I thought I just run through some thoughts on the the international movement. Um, so one of the one of the points, uh, I think is good to bring out, uh, is that stonewall was an unpermitted [00:12:30] action. Uh, it wasn't like something where they, um, talked to police and agreed that this is what they were going to do. Um, and sure. I mean, things have gotten better in some ways, but, uh, but actually, what made Stonewall? What it was is that, uh, the dispossessed, the the, you know, as Sylvia Rivera puts it, The the homeless gay youth, uh, with the advance guard. Uh, but they are not the people who have benefited the most from these victories. And, uh, So Sylvia Rivera, for example, was Latino trans woman. I mean, Latino [00:13:00] Trans women in the US still have a pretty shit situation. Like, um, uh, you know, if compared and have haven't had the same improvements that, um, you know, for example, middle class white gay people have, um so, yeah, that actually a lot of those basic contradictions the policing of queer communities and particularly queer communities of colour Uh, the poverty faced by a lot of the queer community. These things, uh, are all still realities. And the the these are This is the reason that that this was such a militant struggle. Um, [00:13:30] but I mean, another thing we have to draw out of that is is I mean, the gay liberation front groups at that time. They, um they were isolated. Um, and even even as there was this bigger movement happening, they weren't connected to, like, the workers movement, all that kind of thing. Um and so that kind of it did mean that reform strategies, uh, were the that had much more of a basis. Um, so I think what that means is we can't just have the right ideas. So those [00:14:00] of us who have a more radical analysis, uh, we need to be aware of the need to build strong coalitions and be aware of, like, a long term struggle. Um, it's not just about like having the correct view of of what needs to change in society. It's about, like, doing long term work. So I think that's the question for us. Is, um how do we build, like, strong movements where people have a right to, um to put forward, um, more, more militant politics. Um, but, uh, but which have kind of [00:14:30] a unity to them. So, like, um, the Angela Davis quote, um, I often refer back to as, um uh how do we, um, how do we be together in a unity that is not simplistic and oppressive. Uh, how do we be together in a unity that is complex and emancipatory? So that's the question. I suppose I'll leave everyone with, please. Cool. Sure. Yes, yes, Cool, right? Should we do speaking round? [00:15:00] Thanks for that. It's really, really good to get that slice of a particular time and place because and and and with Stone, one of the other ones. One of the key differences to to lots of the early ones is it could be it could be pictures shared around the world. Because if you if you look back at things like the trial in England, um, some of the the, um Carpenter is as a person I love to who wrote pamphlets on homosexual [00:15:30] love who campaigned on environmental issues, who were, who funded anarchists and defences and in court when they got infiltrated by the police and sentenced. And he did that in the 18 nineties. Um and I mean, he's a great sort of, you know, one of the founders of the society and stuff, But all of that gets lost unless it's actually put into popular culture these days. And, you know, people see the images on television. So I think, you know, if we're talking about campaigns, [00:16:00] the marriage equality one is working really well because there are people getting out in the street. There are photos appearing in the paper. There's, you know, it's like it's a shared consciousness about the the area. So, you know, we could look back to the past about, you know, really great ways of of, um, raising awareness, like Oscar Wilde was a martyr to, um, you know, laws that were totally, you know, saying somebody has to go to jail because they have sex with somebody of the same gender is totally ridiculous. But because [00:16:30] of them doing that and lots of people have a sympathy, violence isn't good enough. That was part of the legal, um, way, you know, sort of way forward that people keep saying, Oh, that wasn't right. We need to change it. And there have been academics and other lawyers in New Zealand before those gay liberation activists. But they were out there in public the same way of actually getting people to know about the issues. So I think the the whole visibility side of it is just so important. [00:17:00] Anyone else have any further discussion? Yeah. I mean, just some random thoughts, Really? What about New York? I was in New York in in 1971. Um, I was OK at the time in the conscious sense. Um, but I had friends who were and they were [00:17:30] and who were politically involved. And I also knew quite a lot of random people. All sorts of books, like that job. And one of the interesting things was that huge layers of the population self described as revolutionary at that stage, all of all, blacks thought of themselves as [00:18:00] revolutionary. Now, what that meant was unclear. But it certainly meant at least huge alienation from the official kind of, uh and that is one part of the context. Um, and all around the world, as I said, there were the there. There were these actual revolutionary movements and street battles. And, um, we had the uprising in Czechoslovakia in 1968. [00:18:30] You had the in 1968 and you had huge demonstrations against the Vietnam War. So there battle against authority was very much in the air, and particularly in in my my in in New York city. And it's true that the official workers movement tried to moderate this and keep out of it as much as possible. But there were all sorts of leftist revolutionary organisations [00:19:00] coming from a working class tradition who were involved in that, and most of them were openly anti gay. Um, but because they want to be respectable and so on. But there were always a minority Who, who who who, who were trying to find some sort of way of incorporating, um, ideas of gay liberation or real liberation [00:19:30] into a Marxist or revolutionary framework. A A. And, uh So you you saw them digging back? Because at the time, the official left was very misogynist, very anti women, Um, and and and And, um, women women did the dishes and made the two, at at at at in in trade union meeting, meeting. It was really, really, really [00:20:00] backward. You might seem backward, Um, and some of these organisations start to look into into traditions of women's liberation. Uh, that had, you know, been established in the 18 nineties and before so, and some of them tried to apply this in a in A in a Marxist way. Uh, and and there was some some really interesting work that began to be done there, which [00:20:30] has never got very far, actually. But I think it's important stuff to look at, uh, and developing the way forward. New Zealand stuff we can talk about. Some people are interested. You think so? Um, let's just on your point about coalitions and also your point about visibility. Um, even if you may have seen a film or a documentary called Like The Times of Documentary behind the film. And [00:21:00] there, um, they interviewed one guy who was a union organiser and he said, Now, you know, at the time of of, you know, first turning up he was rapidly anti gay and had all that horror preconception and all the other perceptions that people had at the time, Um, right up until organised to take all beer out of all of the day clubs in New York in San Francisco. Sorry, um, because [00:21:30] the union was having an issue. The court and the only group that was able to actually really pushed what the union was doing was the gay groups and the gay clubs and the gay bars. Um and suddenly you have this massive, powerful union going. Holy crap. We need to be helping them. They're helping us. Um, and we can [00:22:00] talk about coalition that actually leads to the liberation of everybody. I. I thought that was quite a good example of 50 years ago. Now, it was great in the movie when they showed, um, someone from the Teamsters union, you know, big, blue collar, sort of guys going shaking, sort of, um, Harvey Milk's hand endorsing him and his run on the council. And, you know, it was like, Gradually, Harvey milk has been enter the team, so building coalitions each time [00:22:30] he was raped. So it sounded small, but it But eventually he got elected because he just got so many different supporters. And he wasn't just speaking for for the he was speaking for lots of groups within the community. Absolutely. Um, I just had a brief, um, thing And just about the the unions that, um uh there's another interesting one is the builders Labourers Federation, and, uh, and I think it was mainly in Melbourne. Um, sorry. [00:23:00] Uh, mainly Sydney in Australia, anyway, and yeah, they, um you know that this was again in the seventies and like there was, I think there was quite a communist involvement in the union. And they, um yeah, they had quite a link with, um, with some of the sort of gay pride groups or that kind of thing. And at the time, you know, they they conducted green bands which mean they wouldn't construct where, um where the community didn't want constructions. But yeah, they also went on fried marches and all this kind of thing. And it's quite it's quite interesting to look back at some of that stuff. Um, but yeah, I couldn't find [00:23:30] anything particular on that and the particular slice of history I was looking on looking at. But yeah, in New Zealand small, you'll get people wearing different hats and turning up in different places so that it, like, just on marriage equality, I've got three submissions and two of which you've been heard in a number of that because we wear different hats and it's the same with people in the union movement and and people and and, um, different, um, and communities and stuff. [00:24:00] So you might find one person that coalition building, but they may not be the one fronting up because it might get too targeted. Hm. Well, the reality is the union movement has liberalised some stand for it hasn't radicalised. Some stand by any means. But, um, do you want to talk a bit about New Zealand? New Zealand? The Dorian Society was purely when it was set up purely a social [00:24:30] drinking club, really for gay guys. And it never became more than that as a whole. On the other hand, it was an umbrella under which all sorts of other things were allowed to happen. And it's not accidental that to happen. No, the the the the the the the average guy going there for a drink and get laid. We really pleased that someone else [00:25:00] was worrying about the politics. And there's always been a minority that's been designated as the people who should do the politics and get things right for us so that we can drink more freely and get paid more. Really. Um and, um so so that that they they they one of the things about the this this kind of thing is that it raises a lot of money because it's sold alcohol and [00:25:30] um they were very happy to give money to and set up committees for various queer purposes. And so a homosexual law reform committee of the Dorian Society was set up and, uh, that that, uh, became the homos homosexual war for society. And they developed an incredibly respectable kind of, uh, sort of framework of our work. [00:26:00] And it it it had it had various bishops as its patron, patrons and professors of sociology as its president. And things like that, uh, and very much a gradualist. Um, the wolf programme was, uh, to only to legalise homosexual relationships between men over the [00:26:30] age of 21 in private. That was it alum of its programme. Uh, and, uh, they were to do this by careful education of opinion leaders and not cause too much trouble in society and that that was what homosexual law reform or queer politics was all about for quite some time. But of course, with this other stuff [00:27:00] going on overseas, uh, the gay liberation and so on, starting doing things that here it developed a rebellion in its ranks and actually the rebellion in the ranks of the of the homosexual law reform Society, which created these spinoffs, uh, in New Zealand of Gay Liberation and all sorts of other organisations. And then occasionally there was a completely different evolution of lesbian activity. [00:27:30] And that came mostly through women's liberation and, uh, a a AAA di divisions within women's liberation and and, uh, a taking women's liberation in in a in a direction of, uh, to be a fully woman identified woman, uh, was the the best strategy for a and and then then you got some some meeting and discussion between the the gay guys [00:28:00] and and the lesbians and and occasionally they do. But actually it wasn't until 1980 4 85 that you got much connection between the women's struggles and the struggles. At that stage. It was sort of going in parallel, so you had, like in 1975. It was a big women's conference. That was mainly there were a large [00:28:30] number of straight feminists who didn't want to have anything to do with the radical lesbians in their midst. So some of the the gatherings around that time got a bit fiery and there were a few walk outs and there was various things. So one of the things that was happening before, after or ongoing, that there was lots of women's groups of different, especially lesbian groups, of different. So there was Club 41 and 41 William Street, which is another social, you know, go to drink, play for pick up somebody. And some [00:29:00] of the women who went there were married and their husbands didn't know. And there were sort of lots of other little groups, some putting out news letters and sort of splitter ones. And some of those groups are the ones who came together, as Paul was saying, sort of to do a bit of the political. It was that again, that thing of these women wanting to meet other women, Some of them were writing feminist sort of books. There was a little liberation bookshop in street, that sort of thing. A lot of this information there that was [00:29:30] in late seventies eighties, something like that. But all around the country, when you get sort of get a group of of women, a lot of them have come through the feminist circles. But they have not felt comfortable there and had gone off the script, and that tended to be lesbians, and they've had a fairly negative view about bisexual women who are still in the mix but not openly identifying, because it tends to be, um, downplayed. In fact, Club 41 used to have a rule that only lesbian identified lesbians were Amit in. And if you were known to be bisexual, [00:30:00] then no, you were, um, over time, that changed. But it's it's it's, um, still one of these things that parallel struggles when people coming together, especially when some of the law reform would have, um, criminalised, um, women, lesbian activities. And that's sort of at that point, it was like, Oh, we got to do something about it. I mean, a lot of other women have been doing it from right spaces, but the the actual threat was no movement. Yeah, yeah, I think it was the 84 bill, which [00:30:30] would have criminalised like it would have set an age of consent for women or something, so it would have criminalised, um, and say that this context I'm talking about tend to be women, and a lot of women, especially the one who spoke about this, didn't feel respected within those circles because they'd also been government, um, groups like public health nurses. And they set up Maori ones who were telling Maori women how to parent their Children and and things that were, like, really heavy [00:31:00] handed. So there was quite a bit of I don't know where you're coming from. I don't trust you. We want to keep to our own people, um, things going on. But like, one of the reasons, Yeah, I think that, uh, thinking about the the whole coalition and some of those in relation to I think finding the tensions between the Christians and governments [00:31:30] won't so much about, um um, fighting to the and not five months. But it only said three months. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I yeah, I just. And Angela Davis is another one, I think is really useful in that respect, But yeah, um, I [00:32:00] think history of liberation have an awful lot of power over playing out simply because we live in a world where power over playing out. So some of the stuff that you know, the fact that we're talking about a gay liberation front, which was a word for me. It's an obvious one, but I think if you look at the way that plays out around issues with women, as Kate was saying for a very, very long time by women who has been set up for the first time in the late eighties, [00:32:30] women we're not It was not OK in other places. Um, predominantly a white movement. Almost always. I don't think I've ever been in a queer, um, environment in New Zealand. Predominantly white. Um, transition has not even been part of the conversation for an awfully, awfully long time. So I guess I'm kind of interested in how we change that. How we make sure that all of the things that we are talking about is clear. We [00:33:00] are about challenging all of those, all those all the time challenging one another, the most money to make. But I think there is specific things around the demands that we are seeking as well. They are really more. Whose demands are they? Who are they for? Yeah, I think in terms of activism. Now, um, there really needs to be a multi layered approach to to the whole to the whole thing. A [00:33:30] strategic goal. Uh, and and then the lining all of those agencies, if you like to that strategic goal, Um, there's an educative level of of, um, if you like appeasement. I think that needs to be brought into any any form of activism now, because the thing I I've noticed in my experience is, um, as soon as you present [00:34:00] a change to the norm, there's the immediate reaction is, is a centre being threatened? And as soon as you are perceived as posing a threat, there's a polarisation that goes with that and people start to become entrenched and defensive in in their views. Um, I think III I think, having a soft, short approach where it softens attitudes at the same time as having perhaps had the right on the right hand the city camera, which is ready [00:34:30] to smash into any of those really hard entrenched views that are blatantly wrong and false. Um, And then through that educative process, I think you you can more readily embrace those wider issues and that, you know, when we're talking, for example, about Pacifica and and and, um, um representation in the Pacific region, it should to my mind, I anyway, be easy [00:35:00] to embrace women's rights into into that same sort of umbrella and forge an alliance in that area where, where there are obvious overlaps in the way in which in which those those can, um, can work together. And as as we've alluded to, you know, difference of strength and and if we can hold on to that kind of philosophy and bring in all of those different rights, those different issues of of humanity and human [00:35:30] rights Um, I'm not. I'm not entirely certain how to those, but I believe that there's a There's a huge strength that can be achieved in that. And, um and I think that's, um personally, I think that's sort of the goal that I would like to see at the end of This is a joke for that, the humanitarian approach. I'm going to disagree, Um, because my mother says, from age two, I was, um, which I think [00:36:00] it's really great for groups and individuals to sign up to, um, agreed actions and support campaigns. But I don't think we should, as a diverse group, be taking and don't scare the horses. Um, sort of be to, um um pulling our sort of cap down sort of to to to what is the status quo? Because the only way you can actually shift the grounds to what is accepted as so called normal is to actually have that wider diversity [00:36:30] being being shown. If you sort of have that, everybody has to into a winery couple taking a heteronormative lifestyle approach, and that's all it's wanted. And that actually is not doing justice to the full sort of depth of our humanity. Um, and like Humanitarian was well and great. But it's it's also, like, sort of saying, Why do we have to ask for it? And, um, overseas? They found that actually stressing the the the [00:37:00] right to love the the right to be who we are the the whole sort of, you know, those aspects are actually more likely to get, um, um, agreement with people and just that Oh, this is a human right, And this is a civil right, And this is a legalistic, sort of cut and dry, cold sort of thing about appealing to the human and everybody and and and that, um, I don't I present in a very respectable, conforming way, but I don't want society to be fitted into that box [00:37:30] because that's boring, you know? So, yeah, so I, I sort of. And also, if you're trying to actually enforce an agreement that nobody's going to say things that are too challenging or scary, Well, isn't that self censoring? Just as bad as when it's an authority and predicated one on the legislation? So I think I'm just agreeing with you. I don't think I'm disagreeing at at all. And we I'd like to think that perhaps complimentary in terms of this [00:38:00] when I talk about a approach and, like I say, the the the the instance that I've encountered have been where people are confused. And I think that we can, in terms of a approach, remove that confusion that you know it's not. We're not talking about a legal or of our legal communications, Um, but by presenting the fact that we are, we are about being human humans and having having the same sorts of rights, [00:38:30] and that we can bring strength through our difference to to the community without disrupting what they perceive as as as a norm. And by that I, I would imagine Well, in my view, we shift the paradigm to what is normal to something that is more embracing. Um, I mean to say that we don't have a have an extreme view. Yeah, well, I mean, I'm in favour of both, Like I mean, I think education work is really important, and I think we have to disrupt norms in order to, like, get any progress. But, um, [00:39:00] and I speak in favour of rage. I think I mean, well directed rage, obviously, which is quite hard to manage. But I feel sometimes that actually, notably in in much of this campaign, there's sort of been an approach of, you know, But love is love is love, and that's fine, which is on one hand, I agree with this. But there are material power structures here that need redistributing. And we're not going to get those [00:39:30] by kind of, you know, trying to convince people of what the right thing to do is so no balance between that Yes, right. Diversity of tactics is another frame for it. It's quite interesting to acknowledge. I think we need to take a couple of minutes to acknowledge the fact that, um, we actually do have quite a broad range of people, particularly in this campaign. I know, um, in my circle of people that I come in contact with, I can't actually think of anybody that actually wants to get married. [00:40:00] But we know that we that there are we do have people who do want to, and we should have that ability and that right to do so. So we need to just acknowledge that, Yeah, there are. Although we're talking about having different, um, groups of people working together, I think we are actually already achieving that in quite a big way. And I think because New Zealand is so small and willing to be smaller, it just sort of automatically happens. I don't think we need to get too hung up on trying to appeal to everybody because it kind of already happens anyway. It's just the way we work. [00:40:30] It's just the way that things go about around us. So, yeah, we need to acknowledge that as well. Yeah, yeah. So it's a comment about, um, political organising, I think, probably is, in fact, I. I mean, I don't think this sort of universal type coalition approach and the sort of identity based action that they're actually emotionally explosive, and sometimes it's like we talk about within the other. I think there's actually a room of debate, and and it's determining when it's appropriate to have what sort [00:41:00] of real challenge. And so I worry that we're actually setting that up as a bind, a itself so that we sort of discuss when, when? If we kept the options open about the two forms of expression, it's actually a matter of choosing which form of expression is at that time. And right now the manager quality staff has no the time. Perhaps not to say that. But, um, maybe it's the time of coalition approach, while acknowledging that each individual collectively Andre, I has actually got [00:41:30] the main issues. So it's it's for me. It's actually a judgement about how do we determine when it's appropriate to do that kind of collaborative thing? And then how do we decide that? You know, this is this is a particular you know, an issue in documentation, for example, that you might want to pursue as an individual community, but we're still looking for the support we are looking to beside us. So walking along the side as opposed to being yes, but I I'm trying to agree that we've got to have both the the the challenge [00:42:00] and the coalition. But I think and and I agree on on on that these things are compatible. But I don't think we can collapse the tension between those and that. The tension between those being very real in terms of how we organise it's not an accident, that there are two rooms here, AAA and and that is part of the way we are both [00:42:30] together and the public. And that's OK. Yeah, just brief. Um, yeah, I think I was going to say, I think one of the big things with this isn't just that different groups are working together. It's what demands are we putting forward? So, like, um, for example, demands around like youth, trans homelessness, stuff like that that, you know John Key might be less happy to vote for something like that. But it's really important, and it's it's it's affecting a lot of people kind of thing. So yeah, it's it's not just building coalitions. [00:43:00] It's what end we're building coalitions towards, I think. But yeah, I don't know it. I'm not sure that's what we talk about. I don't want us to redefine normal and then squeeze other people up at the margins. So we gay marriage into the normal category, and then we create all sorts of other exceptions at the margins. I loath normal a subscription, and I just want to put that in somewhere that that normal na is really [00:43:30] dangerous because the minute you create a new space, the exclusions are implied. Interesting. Yeah, Well, one thing I found really problematic throughout throughout this campaign is the New Zealander thing. Like, uh, you know, we all have rights as New Zealanders, and it's like So what do people who are not New Zealanders not have rights in our opinion? Like like yeah, so yeah, I agree. But, um, substituting one normal for another, always people who are going to be excluded. [00:44:00] And I think you know the people who are probably the most privileged. You should get to the side who gets into that group. But then you get a time. It always got to be people on the margins. And I think the people in this room at least want want more than that more than if you just scrap like kind of thing. I was thinking of the they want to. There was a radical aspect to it, and I thought it seemed like they shunted them off [00:44:30] to the side because they might prove to be an obstacle to getting the respectable thing that they wanted. And I was thinking, It's easy, you know, once one group has its it gathered in its advance, it abandons those sort of helped along the way and and takes the game at once. And I was just interested in that idea. Yeah, I don't think it's as simple as that either, though, because I think, um, some of that stuff around what a radical lesbian looks like is actually about challenging whether or not sex [00:45:00] was part of the attraction. So whether or not, um, to be a true feminist, you should be in relationship to war and whether you wanted to have sex with them or not. So they're not kind of talking about sexuality. Um, all right, I think we're probably going to have to break soon after we've got the Beyond Marriage Forum, with Bill and Anne talking about the, um, the marriage campaign and and that kind of thing. Uh, and if if there are any particular areas people [00:45:30] think need to be worked up a bit further, there's free space tomorrow to do that. So, um, keep that in mind, so, yeah.

IRN: 690
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/marriage_equality_conference_qsa.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004080
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089374
TITLE: Queer-Straight Alliances - Marriage Equality Conference
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Tabby Besley; partially identified voice(s)
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Blake Skjellerup; Christchurch; Closet Space; Community Law (Wellington); Day of Silence; Dunedin; Greymouth; Griffin Nichol; Hagley Community College; Hamilton; High School Diversity tour (2011); Horowhenua College; Hui Putahi (2012); InsideOUT Kōaro; International Day Against Homophobia, Biphobia, Transphobia and Intersexphobia (IDAHOIBT - 17 May); John McGlashan College; Kevin Hague; LegaliseLove (Waikato); LegaliseLove (Wellington); Levin; Margaret Mayman; Marriage Equality Conference (2012); Māori; Napier; Napier Boys Highschool; Nayland Alliance of Gays and Straights (NAGS); Nayland College; Nelson; Nigel Studdart; Out at Work Network; Pink Shirt Day; Pompallier Catholic College; Post Primary Teachers Association (PPTA); Q Youth (Nelson); Queen Margaret College; Rainbow Network; School's Out (Wellington); Seb Stewart; Tabby Besley; Thomas Coppell; Waikato; Wellington; Youth'07 survey; boarding school; bullying; community; depression; diversity; early childhood education; education; equality; facebook. com; funding; homophobia; hui; human rights; internet; isolation; leadership; marriage equality; mental health; outreach; partially identified voice(s); peer support; queer; queer straight alliance (QSA); regions; religion; school; straight; suicide; support; takatāpui; teaching; transgender; transphobia; unions; visibility; volunteer; youth
DATE: 1 December 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Community House/Press Hall, 80 Willis Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Tabby, Griffin and Tommy from the newly formed QSA Network Aotearoa (now InsideOUT Kōaro) talk about Queer-Straight Alliances and organising in schools. Participants then share their own experiences. This session was recorded during the Marriage Equality Conference held at Community House in Wellington.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hey, so, um, we're Tabby, Gryphon and Tommy. Um, and we're from the QS a network. Um, so this is a little statement about us. Um, we aim to empower young people to take up leadership opportunities, make positive change in their schools and connect with other youth leaders. Um, so I just tell you a little bit about the history. Um, So we rose out of work that was done in the Nelson region. Um, where basically there was an organisation set up called, which is a community [00:00:30] group kind of like schools out in Wellington. Um, and we worked with all of the most of the schools in the region to set up Queer Straight Alliance support groups in the schools. Um, and it seemed like a model that works really well and was really like, um, necessary. Um, So I became really passionate about spreading that and thinking, Why doesn't the whole country have this opportunity? Um so, um, myself and these people, when Joseph and some others um, founded PS a network this year, [00:01:00] Um, the idea did come out last year, and, um, we ran a first project which was the high school diversity tool and we'll tell you a bit more about that. Um, this year, our main project was running a national, um, which we did in July in Wellington. And we had people come from all over the country for that. Um, and recently we've registered as a charitable trust, which is really exciting, because, um, everything we've been doing is voluntary. Um, basically, I've been doing this as a kind of job all year, but not being paid for it. So I'm really excited to hopefully get some funding [00:01:30] for the new year. Um, and that will really, um, enable our capacity to do development work. So the mission is, um so we really want to, um, connect Q SAS to each other between schools and connect community resources through port leadership, development and training. And, um yeah, so we support young people in starting strengthening and sustaining Q SAS and building capacity to create a space for students can socialise [00:02:00] in a safe environment, provide support for students who might be facing issues such as bullying and spread awareness about homophobia, transphobia, gender, identity, blah, blah, blah and skills. Oh, you can read that for me. Oh, yeah. So here So here are some interesting stats, and they're from youth. 07 E. Yeah, so they're from the 2007, um, survey from 100 [00:02:30] different high schools. I think it was, um yeah. So why we needed one in 12 youth identify as same or both. Sex attracted. Um, 88% of you know, by the time they're 15 54% of queer youth have been hit or harmed, compared to 42% of straight youth. Um, yeah. Those who are bullied five times as many were bullied because they were gay or because people thought they were gay. Um, queer are three times more likely to get depressed. And straight youth [00:03:00] and que queer youth are six times more likely to attempt suicide than straight youth. Um and so those statistics are from 2007. But this year, there was another survey commissioned. So next year we'll get the new statistics. Um, there was also one done in 2001, and between 2001 and 2007, things didn't change much at all. So it'll be really interesting to, um So the new statistics, which also, um, survey change gender and gender queer use in high school. So I'm really excited to find out more about them. [00:03:30] Uh um, So there's just some more statistics about, um, the bullying. And so I guess you just talking more about why we're really needed. Um, the bullying is a lot, um, more for, um, young people who are affected for the same for, um, process people. Um, yeah, this one's the same for, um, a lot of them don't go to school and start, um, waiting and things like that [00:04:00] because it's not a safe place for them to be. So having a QS a in school really just provides that safe environment, even if it's only once a week, there's somewhere within the school that they can go. Um, um, So this is some of the stuff about what we can offer. And his name is this, um, I say what we can offer, but, um, because we're not funded at the moment, it is all voluntary, and there's a lot more and a lot wider. Um, that we want to go with this, um, so, resources, we've got, um, working [00:04:30] with, um this is a pack on starting your diversity group or Quest Trade alliance. Um, it's got heaps of information. Um, which is really awful. Um, and we really want to, like, make our website a really, like kind of one stop shop for information around, um, bullying in schools and quest alliances and diversity groups. And, um, because there's not really resources or information out there. There's this book that nobody really knows that it's out there. Um, so I guess we're passionate about spreading that and letting [00:05:00] people know that there is somewhere they can go for support for this kind of stuff. Um, support, Um, one thing we're really keen on starting this kind of regional checking groups around the country. Um, for QS a leaders in that region. So we're just starting at one in Wellington. Um, and it's a chance for all of the, um, student leaders, um, of those groups in the region to come together and share their challenges and stories. Maybe collaborate on events and stuff. Um, so it can be quite isolating to lead a group like that in the school. Um, so giving opportunities for people [00:05:30] to come together and, um share very important to us. Um, we We're also available. Um, kind of because we're based out of Wellington, but we are a national organisation. Um, so we're really happy to do email, Phone Skype support in person where we can. We're passionate about getting out to rural areas and getting support. Um, one day, hopefully, we'll have regional coordinators all around the country, but that's probably a bit far off. Um, do you want to talk about the network? Um, yeah. So I don't know [00:06:00] if you mentioned already. So one of the really great things we do for networking is we hold national. Um, and so our recent one this year we had QS a leaders from all around New Zealand come together and all kind of work together and learn about leadership and work together. So connecting QS a groups between schools, but also, um, within the community, like we talked about earlier. Um and yeah, you mentioned the regional chickens. That would be really great. For so not only connecting with other national [00:06:30] groups, but within cities and areas, um, and online again, I think like, especially once the website is more of a one stop shop, but, um especially young people like online and Facebook. And that kind of communication is really works really well with that generation. So, yeah, um, that's something that we're really keen to continue doing. And we're doing is, um, supporting leaders online? Um, that's Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Um, education, [00:07:00] um, so we can offer education for the leaders of QS A groups and for the groups and in the schools for setting up maintaining, strengthening QS a groups and workshops on leadership. Um, some of those we will do at other times, we might go into schools and help as individual groups. Um, and we also offer, um, a diversity education package, which is written by Rainbow Youth. Um, and that's available through health classes. But we can also give it to, [00:07:30] like, anyone really community groups, um, workplaces, schools in general. Yeah, um, and it's a really amazing, accessible package of information. It kind of focuses on sexual orientation, gender identity and focus is really on you, but it's applicable to kind of working well with any anyone who's queer. Yeah, Um, that package is especially great because it's not like, um, you need to be nice to be gay. people or anything like that. It's kind of, um, [00:08:00] quite activity. I focused or, um, interactive. And it gets people kind of thinking themselves. Oh, yeah, that's a problem. What can we do about it? Um, especially with the students. So that's, um, a really cool thing about it. Um, and another thing is national campaigns. So, um, one of the things I think is really cool about quest alliances in schools is that they have the power to change the culture of the whole school. Um, by So it doesn't need to just be a social support group for, um, a few people in the school. It has the power to change things. [00:08:30] Um, throughout the school. Um, so some of the ideas we have for this you'll probably have heard of, like, fake shirt day. Um, that's it happens in quite a few schools around the country, But wouldn't it be awesome if they were all really doing that? Um, and that's around anti-bullying. If you don't know, Um, another one is the day of silence. And that's the day where, um, people take their mouths and don't speak for the day, um, to represent the silence that a lot of clear people go through about their identities and have a little card that that's why they're doing it. Um, and that's really popular with schools because, um, especially [00:09:00] the junior students, they're like, Ha, ha. We have to talk for the day. Um, so they they do it because it's fun and rebellious or something. Um, but through doing it, they find out, um, they have this card and the stickers and stuff and like, they're supporting all the stuff. Even if that's not the original reason they did it, they get to learn about it and, um, and help speed awareness. Um oh, yeah. The international day of, um, against homophobia and transphobia is another one. and there's lots more. So things like that would really like to kind of, um have happening in lots and lots of schools [00:09:30] around the country to really spread that awareness and maybe get some, um, good media attention around it as well. Mhm. Um, So I thought I'll tell you a little bit about the high school diversity tour that was done in 2011. Um, so that was done by the executive director of Q and Nelson at the time. Stuart, Um, and Olympian, um, speed skater Blake Skill up. And they toured 18 schools across New Zealand speaking in school assemblies, Um, about homophobic bullying. Basically, um, that was really powerful to have Blake [00:10:00] as a New Zealand athlete, um, standing up and saying that he was gay and that kind of had a big impact. I think for a lot of students, just because of the way our culture is in New Zealand, around rugby and so on, Um and that Yeah, that tool really focused on going to rural areas because there's already, um there's more support in some of the main centres than there is in those rural areas. If you don't get much at all. Um, we did all those things, um, feedback. So one third of the schools visited [00:10:30] and set up as trade alliances as a result of the tour, and all of the schools reported really good feedback from both the students and the staff. Um, so we'd love to do something like that again. Um, and crap, we kind of already talked about the of it. So there's just a couple of photos from the Who we ran in July, and that's something we want to do at least annually. Um, it was such a such an amazing experience. And you can just see, um, for a lot of the young people that it's the first time they've ever been in an environment like that that's [00:11:00] been inclusive and fully accepted them for who they are. And you can just, like, see the change in them really, really amazing. Um, so how does this one go? Um, 100% of participants were satisfied with the project that it met. The need in their community would attend again if they had the chance and would tell their friends to attend. There's, um, a few quotes from young people who are attending, um, at So this is what we've been doing kind of in the last few months. Um, again, because [00:11:30] there are support groups in the main centres Wellington, Auckland, Christchurch, et cetera. Um, for queer youth, even though there's still not that much in schools. Um, it's a lot more than there is in some places. Um, so we've been doing some work in the north, and last week we were in South Auckland. Um, this Me a wonderful bunch of and they all, like, shared these deep stories with us, And then they, um, sung to us and, um, they now setting up the lights, which is awesome closet space in [00:12:00] which is this whole support group. Um, and we did. Lots of we started some work with some of the high schools around there to get groups in their schools because the building there was just shocking. Um, so we're hoping to go back there early next year and really continue that, Um I thought I better put something about marriage equality in, um, so we did some work encouraging que alliances all over the country to get their groups and individuals in the groups to submit on the bill. Um, so young people sitting down writing a big submission might not be the best, [00:12:30] um, way to get them to do it. So I suggested, um, you know, get creative with it, make a video, make a, um, signs and take photos, and then make a slide show and send that in things like that. So these are some from, um, girls, which is Nelson Girls College. Um, this one got famous on Tumblr. If you know Tumbler, it's a blog. Internet, blogging. Um, so maybe open for any questions. And then I thought maybe we could just [00:13:00] go around. Um, people could introduce themselves and say anything that has come up for them. If you want to talk about, um, what school was like for you or, um, how if you have any ways to help us, and that would be awesome because we don't have, um, money or resources. Um, yeah. And anything that you'd like to talk about, I guess. Um, yeah. So questions maybe fix. I'm interested to know like this because I've never been involved in A and I've never seen one really have them. So [00:13:30] I'm really interested to know how the way I perceive it to be. There are a very small group of people involved in this, um, safe social environment. And then but the rest of the school, it's it's kind of very separate. So I understand what you're saying about that, like, the small group can influence the bigger culture on campus, but I'm wondering how that happens. Like, how does it go from being the gays to? Yeah, um I mean, there's, I think there's a variety between it will depend on your school [00:14:00] and how accepting it is in general, um, and the group and how comfortable they are being out and garden the school or whatever. Um, I think, yeah, if the group wants to do school wide events and activities, um, and kind of really promote themselves and that it becomes part of the school culture. Um, I went to college in Nelson, um, where we had, um, Nags, which is of alliance of Gays and Strass, which I changed to que Andras. Um, and that was probably [00:14:30] the first que straight alliance in Australasia. Um, which is really exciting. Um, and over the time it's go next year, we have been going for 10 years. Um, from the time I was at the school, even I just saw, um, the culture of the chain culture of the school change. Um, even just saying that's so gay. Um, by the end of the time, I was leaving school people. If someone said it, a teacher or another student would kind of call you up on it. Um, and that was, you know, it wasn't really tolerated, which is um, you can't say that [00:15:00] for a lot of schools in New Zealand. I don't think, um and that's because of the advocacy of both the straight and the queer students. Like going out to the wider school community and saying, Hey, this is not OK and this, you know, marginalises the community and educating from a youth perspective to a youth perspective, that's a real strength of it, I think. Also having supportive staff members, um, to get on board and stand with the group, um is really important. Um, And you having, um, [00:15:30] where you kind of encourage people like the student leaders of the schools, peer mentors and things like that to, um, to join the group or actively support it? Because they're, um, looked up to in the school as the you know, they're generally, like the popular academic, um, well liked people. Um, so to see people like that, supporting um the lands group is can be a really powerful thing for the rest of the school. To kind of witness and talking to a straight person who I was at a leadership course with who went to college. She said that she felt because of the existence of Nags [00:16:00] that she was so much safer to be whoever the hell she wanted to be, whether that was queer straight, um, into gaming or into something else. You know, anything. She felt free to be herself because of the existence of this group that advocated for diversity. Yeah, I guess that's another thing about these groups they tend to attract, Um, not just queer people who are, um, in a minority or whatever. They attract anyone who's different or doesn't really feel that they've got a place they can kind of be that which is really nice. [00:16:30] What do you have? Um, place which teaches you is that people like teachers should be taking care of their own problems in the sense that they have, because they've stuck out for that for whatever happens to be on. I feel that teachers can get I mean, but that's not exactly the students should be shorting them, [00:17:00] should be giving them training or stuff like that. We've got good look with the PP a and the Rainbow Task force within that which have been Yeah, really helpful. Um was very early on in our week, so we haven't, um, done much with teachers. But one thing I'd really like to do at some point is kind of a Hoy for teachers and guidance counsellors who support the students in these groups or out in schools. Because I think, um, yeah, a chance for them to come together will be really powerful. [00:17:30] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uncle Stupid, etcetera. Um, and the education package that we do, um, it has an exercise in that where it teaches them that that's you know, what do you really mean when you say that, um, we use an example where we use someone's name and then, you know, how would you feel? How do you feel after, you know, a term of that being said multiple times a day and it really [00:18:00] makes people understand. And then it's kind of we we set a challenge. So next week, when we come back to do the next session with you, Um, see, if you can not say it in the whole week or say it less than you normally do, um, and really encourage them to take up the challenge. So the more that that education package can get into schools um, the better. Oh, yeah, It's everywhere. Yeah. You can't avoid it, I. I heard it in primary school. I've been hearing it since I was five, [00:18:30] and it's just yeah, not just in school for me. I find that I don't like the word gay to identify myself because it's been so derogatory. Mhm. Did you get that name? Things from the Wa Sites Club. It's a really awesome YouTube, but he demonstrates that by going up to the two guys, it's like, [00:19:00] Yeah, I've seen that Rainbow has developed the education package because that's a gap in it. So I'm not sure if they did or not. Sorry I was late, so I miss this, but, um, yeah, are you talking about like, Yeah, um well, we're national, so we operate everywhere. In a way. Um, there aren't any groups currently, um, in [00:19:30] Dunedin. There's a few in Christchurch. Um, that's an area that we really want to try and get to next year. Um, it's a matter of, um and just to build on that, I mean, I'd be quite happy, and I'm sure some of the people in the room would be quite happy to go back to their school and help you if you wish. And I mean going back to my school. So quite a conservative country in town, [00:20:00] Um, most of them just rugby players. I mean, the, um the stories that I'm able to go back to and say, Hey, this is what I've done since I've been here. And you know that liberation of, you know, you can do whatever you want to do And providing those examples from experience especially, um would be quite helpful, especially for us. I mean, Andrew, [00:20:30] pick one. Yeah, definitely. I think that's something that really works as well, because it's hard for an outside organisation to go into a school and say, Hey, you're que you have queer students and they're not, you know, they're being bullied, and all this is happening. Do something about it. We can't really do that. Um, which is probably why there isn't groups in all the schools. You really need people who have been to that school or in the school currently to kind of stand up or, um, teachers and guidance counsellors as well. To say, you know, there [00:21:00] there is a problem. I've experienced it, but I've seen it happening. Um, and I want to do something about it, so yeah, definitely former students telling their stories. Um, it's really helpful with the, uh, school in South Auckland Was culture a barrier in terms of it doesn't look like it. Um, in terms of how we connected with them, Um, [00:21:30] I think from my perspective, um, I felt that I had a lot to learn about, um, connecting with people from, um, some cultures and so on. Um, just mainly because of the way that we talk about sexual orientation and gender identity is very different. Um, we also went to the, um, just before that, and we kind of felt the same thing. Um, so, yeah, I feel like we've got a lot to learn, but from [00:22:00] the young people relating to us straight away, they were like telling their stories. And it was all we needed to do was tell our stories like I just shared a really, you know, generic story about how I felt like I was the only gay in my village in high school. And then they, like, poured out their hearts, you know? And so they just connected with us on that level to hear Older people who had been through school and were just recently out of school had survived, you know, and identified, [00:22:30] you know? Yeah, this may be a really stupid question, because, um, how much money would a single schools need to sustain itself? That's a hard question, because, um, the QS a groups and the the schools don't necessarily like it's not a necessity to have money to run a group in a school. Um, my my group, we did, um, we had a bank account within the school, and we did [00:23:00] fundraisers so we could go to the and, um, buy food for our meetings and things like that, which is really great. Um, but those can be self sustained. Um, but to support those groups from our organisation Um, I. I mean, I can't say how much money that would take, like if we're talking about a whole country. And I guess another reason I was passionate about starting this up is, um, because I had been in the group at my school that had, um and it's been going for nearly 10 years, and that was really awesome. But I often heard from other [00:23:30] young people that I would meet at who and stuff that Oh, we tried to set up a group that didn't really work, you know, we're too scared to do it again. Um, yeah. Tommy had an experience with his group. Didn't really work. He's about I didn't have appropriate support. I didn't have someone that was, like, really on to Q SAS and knew you know about my problems and were well equipped enough to, you know, deal with them. And that's the real value of this organisation is that they're focusing on high school groups. Q SAS. [00:24:00] So if we wanted to put a QS a in our old high school would be the best way for us to approach the students directly. Or would it be to go through you guys to them? Um, I would suggest if you have students who are currently at the high school, talk to them, tell them about us, see if it's something they're interested in doing, and that would be really awesome. Um, and then But you need to bring us in to support them. Otherwise, Yeah, [00:24:30] So, as we've been seeing, um, groups just aren't getting the support and they don't know how how to run a group. What do you do in a group? Um, how do you make it in close to all that stuff? So that's what we How do you keep members? How do you get new members? How do you get juniors involved? Et cetera. Um, so that's the kind of stuff that we talk about and teach at our um, so it's really important for people to as many people to try and come along to those as possible. And those are the kind of resources that we want to build. Yeah. Yeah. We really want to be able to build those resources and get more connections [00:25:00] in different regions so that we can, um, get get support people in different regions and get speakers to go along to meetings And, um, things like that. Yeah. Um, how do you S a, um, groups relate to other groups in the school like the other groups, Christian union groups, et cetera. That's a good question. Um, we promote that it's really awesome to engage with other groups in the school. Um, at my school, we would have, like, shared lunches with the Christian group, and it worked really well. We respected each other's opinions. [00:25:30] Um, and that was really cool to kind of See that, um, and show that, um, yeah, you can have all those other parts of your identity as well. Um, acknowledge those, I guess, um, and things like amnesty international groups and schools. They like quite good groups to work alongside. So, yes, I think it's good to do that. Um, I'm not really a question, but sort of to to comment on the young man. Um, I'm a teacher, and I didn't teach at a school [00:26:00] with a homophobic, homophobic principles. But in fact, it was the gay teachers, um, and teachers who supported those gay teachers who gave the support to the students. And I think you know, you've got contacts with the PPTO with the group etcetera in the PPT a. And if someone was wanting to set up a group in the school, it would be good to see if there if there are gay teachers who are out in that school and then approach them as well. Definitely. [00:26:30] Psycho. Cool. So maybe should we start around. And if you've got any more questions or anything you wanna say, You can say it as we do that. Um, I'm I'm William. I'm a couple of years out of high school. It wasn't terribly exciting. Yeah, Nothing else to add. OK, I'm a I'm a teacher librarian at Wellington High School, which is a non uniform, [00:27:00] liberal, coed inner city school. Um, there's been a gay questioning transgender et cetera group in the school for a large number of years. Um, but one of the things I was thinking about when you were talking was that, you know, to get some of those resources into a school library would be incredibly good and to the school counsellors. Um, so there are things like that that a school library [00:27:30] or a teacher who's supportive can actually do to make people feel more comfortable. And, I mean, we've actually had students um, come, um, dressed as queens with their heels and their wigs and makeup and being just accepted into class as if that is normal. Good to know that it's happening. Um, I'm Natalie. I am co-chair, um legalised love Waikato. Um, and [00:28:00] that's really good to hear about that. And I'm really grateful for that because I have a perception of what Q SAS might look like, and it's it's somewhat different to that. So I'm really glad to be enlightened. Um, and also good to, um, it would be good to have a chat a bit later about how you engage in youth and these kind of diversity issues. Because, um, I'm passionate about bringing in in at a younger age and talking about diversity, um, within primary education. And so that's really interesting to see how you tackle those ideas, that this is an adult issue [00:28:30] and that, um, it's a no go area, so yeah. Thanks. I'm tell you. I'm also from legalised lab about, um I'm quite interested in education. I'm an early childhood teacher. So talking about diversity. Sorry. Talking about diversity at a young age is quite important to me. Um, and we've been talking a little bit about setting up some sort of a QS a type thing in Waikato, so it was very interesting. That's me. [00:29:00] I'm Murray. Um I'm also from legal. I love. And, um, I've had the privilege of being to a few QS a who Which completely blew my mind. Um, um, not until after I left high school, Unfortunately, But, um I just think they're really exciting just because, um, I was really amazed by the way young people talk about sexuality and gender and, like, such a fluid and all embracing way that, like, we just don't do in the queer community. Well, not that [00:29:30] I experienced before going to those things, so I was really excited. It was cool. Cool. Um, I'm Sam. I'm also just I've just finished uni this year, so I'm not too far out of high school either. Um, I kind of have one of those. Boring. Stereotypical. My high school was kind of a only gay in the village type environment as well. Um, but one point that I thought I just want to echo that was made earlier down there is that, uh I think quest straight lights are fantastic, and the more the better. But I think, um, something that really needs to happen is [00:30:00] to provide more ways for young people to interact with and express their sexuality. So not just being able to join the alliance, but being able to access more information about it, go to parties and groups. Um, organised by groups like Q SAS. Um and so to see, sort of that Q SAS develop more. But also, to use those as springboards the other ways in which young people can sort of find out more about or, um, express their sexuality would be great, because So I found that when I came to university, and all those things were, um, here and open to me. But if I [00:30:30] had that open to me or those types of opportunities open to me when I was at high school, I think it, you know, it would have been awesome. Well, I'm Cameron. I'm from Christchurch. Um, I don't really have any other other comment. Apart from I went to the most fantastic high school in the world. Hackley High school. You know, um, it was popular to be gay. As soon as you come out, everybody's like, Oh, my gosh, you're my best friend, Pat on the back. So, yeah, that's basically the only comment I can make. So it's true. [00:31:00] Ok, um, James, more than a couple of years out of high school. Um, um, yeah, probably nothing to add to that, but, uh, fascinating to hear. Thank you. Hi. I'm Emma. Um, I also went to school in Nelson, but not nail in college. And maybe, unfortunately, I'm not sure. And, um, yeah, I'm I just think that maybe like an well, I, uh So I'm I'm straight. But I'm just really supportive of, [00:31:30] like, queer rights and stuff like that, largely because, um, my really close friend from high school, um, committed suicide. He was gay. And, um, it still breaks my heart, like every day. Um, and so, like, maybe an influence, like not a campaign, not a campaign. It's the wrong word. But like a like a what to do if you feel suicidal or feel depressed or, you know, you know, it's getting too much, kind of like emphasis or something, or, um [00:32:00] would be really useful, because, I mean, I know he struggled with such thoughts for, like, years before he actually committed suicide. So yeah, yeah, I know. Yeah, I know. I think it's changed quite a lot, like because I finished in 2006, and like, even the difference between like when my brother finished in 2009 and and me was quite staggering, [00:32:30] I didn't realise what the circle was about. But now, um, the So I went to, uh, a Maori boarding school and brought up in the Maori environment. The I think, uh, Queer Strait alliance is is amazing and that the alliance aspect of it and the outreach of your particular group to create a space for, uh to tell their stories is fantastic. Uh, on [00:33:00] the cultural side, that's another debate that goes on within the culture. But there are values within the culture such as, uh, with one another, um, that will combat that side of things. But to be able to create a space to allow, uh, Maori or any other cultures to express themselves and to allow themselves to talk about their sexuality and gender identity, however they want to express themselves would be a great value. [00:33:30] I feel so. I'm Kevin and I live in Greymouth. Um, but I went to school in Hamilton in the 19 seventies and, uh, we didn't have a QS a group in Hamilton Boys High. I don't know if they have one now. You know, it doesn't seem likely. I have. I have [00:34:00] I have always had that fantasy of going back to my high school and and educating them on what life is really about. They've never They've never invited me back. Um, I came across the idea of Q SAS in probably about 1990 when, um, Kathleen Quinlivan was promoting the idea. And I must say at the time, I thought, This is never going to work. [00:34:30] Um, and I was completely wrong, which I'm very pleased about. And so what I'm focused on at the moment is, um, actually doing some work with with Murray, Um on kind of what might the top down response be like? So So, uh, if if if I get to be part of the government or what are the what are the policies that we want to put in place to facilitate? Uh, the having [00:35:00] Q SAS in every school, Um, and a whole bunch of other policies that would become nationally standard. So that's kind of that's That's where I said. But I'm also interested in the the the bottom up of how can we resource the the group that's going now. Thank you. Jorda. I'm Sarah. Um it's really great to hear you guys talk II. I love the work that you're doing. Um, and I just thank God that would have been amazing. You know, [00:35:30] when I was at school and, um, you know, I suppose I think you know, someone of my age. You know, um, you know, we've all lost a lot of people, and it might not have happened, you know, if this had been around longer, so, you know, awesome work. Um, I'm also along with the gym. I'm involved in out of work, which is, um, you know, queer union work. And I'm just thinking, you know, listening to how you guys operate, I'm thinking, Oh, there's lots of lessons here. [00:36:00] You know, um, that we can learn in our work, like, for making safe workplaces as well. So yeah, I want to talk to you guys more. Everyone. My name is Joseph. I'm with legal guys, love Wellington. Um, I've had the pleasure of being to quite a few that, uh, a network and Q you have put on, um, one of the the single best experience so far has been the most recent one where I was, like helping to organise and some of the [00:36:30] you know, uh, some of the younger people came up and at the start of the like, anyone else, Um they sort of said, you know, I, I feel a bit like I. I don't know many people here. It's an uncomfortable experience Yada, yada, yada at the end of it. Um, they said this is not only an accepting place. This is the single most accepting and loving atmosphere that I've ever encountered in my life, and that mirrored my personal experience down to a T. And it was just wonderful to actually see this replicated in people that are just coming. So it I, I actually I can't emphasise enough [00:37:00] how absolutely heartwarming and empowering, Um, the QS a network. And and it's who we are. And I think that, you know, if if the world could be like life and one of those who heaven would be on earth, So I'm done. Um, my name is, um obviously, I'm You might all know me by now, but I'm the conference chair. Um, I went to Southern and Boys High School, which, um, right at the bottom of the country almost, [00:37:30] uh, you can imagine what it would be like. Uh, but, um I mean, I think one of the things that I didn't know is what What it was like to be queer at all. So I came out quite late. It wasn't until I was well, two years ago that I came out. And, um, I think it's been quite an amazing feat in itself. Um, while I wasn't out, I was very supportive of the community. Uh, and we did try to set up, uh, [00:38:00] a uniq on campus at Massey Albany. Uh, while I was student president, and while it was unsuccessful, um, while I was there, I went back, unfortunately, was welcomed back by the community. And, um, they, uh, have changed. Um, just by putting that little people into the to the water. And while I wasn't successful, you go back onto campus and, you know, we're everywhere, and it's, you know, you see so many fabulous looking people and so happy just [00:38:30] to be out. Um, and that's what we didn't have when I was at Mass. Albany. But to be able to do this in schools is a effect as well, so well done. Hello, everyone. I'm Rosie. Um, I love I think you guys are doing an amazing job, and I think it's really inspiring. And I think being in schools is where it's at. Um, I remember I went to school in Palmerston North. Um, I really love being at school, but I was felt [00:39:00] really isolated, and it was a really difficult experience. Um, in retrospect, I managed to tag along to a local uni Q, um, and claim claiming to be straight, and that kind of got me through high school. So, um, I'm really excited to hear that there's a QS a at my old school. Um, and I think that the QS a network has the opportunity to really revolutionise the environments that our, um, young people, um, are operating in at school and have a really positive impact on [00:39:30] our suicide rates and mental health rates in the queer community. Um, yeah. So thank you. Hi. I'm I'm Jim. Um, I was interested to hear that you You you work in early in early years teaching. Um, I. I was I've just been thoroughly outed by my great nephew at It's a It's an interesting experience. Um, I nobody did that to anybody when I attended my first in infant [00:40:00] school as a child? I guess so. Things have have sort of changed. I think quite a lot. He had a he he very firmly before Kindy actually told me that I was a girl. Um, I think that I couldn't work out whether it was logic that he'd worked it out. Or somebody suggested, in fact, that I must be, um, highly unlikely. It It's, um it's been an interesting experience because obviously, um, it's quite obvious that in some respects that there's no reason why [00:40:30] kids of that age should be prejudiced. Really? Um, I mean, because that's really not where their heads are at, I think, um, so, So that it's a It is a problem. I'm sure. Um, I haven't really tapped into any of the other parents that are going there. I'm only doing this well, possibly temporarily. I just filling in, you know? But he I got announced as Uncle Jim, basically who lives with Uncle Ian. Really? And that was it. I think it's sort of an interesting experience, really. [00:41:00] Um, but I'm not sure where it's going to go. And I don't really know what the other parents feel. I've been taking up your point about the word gay. For instance, if he called me gay, um, then, um, it could well be that they have to translate. Or that, you know, I think they did suss me out. It wasn't gay because I was sort of awful. It was gay because I had a, you know, sexuality that was gay. Um, but so it's an interesting It's an interesting thing, really. Um, I suppose it would be all too obvious to suggest that [00:41:30] doing stuff with early years kids could help an awful lot. Um, certainly, there's a mixture of, um, heritage in the kids that he's with. Um, there's a It's obviously a very welcoming environment for, um, people broadly, um, by and the teachers of different heritages as well, you know. So, um, it's obvious that, um, the only thing in the way is that we just don't wear it quite so forcefully in front. [00:42:00] But kids make sure you do, Really? I mean, they there's spelling out of them. I think when it's, um when they're so young. I'm Nigel. Um, first of all, I'd like to thank you guys For all the support I've received up at Pompeo and what you've done. I echo what Kevin says in terms of changing it from the top down as well. Certainly what I've seen is amazing support from the kids for each other, you know? I mean, they've just been amazing to each other, straight kids, for [00:42:30] queer kids. It's just been brilliant watching that support yet from an institutional sense in terms of actually where this prejudice comes from, it's being put on the kids from the top. It's not there. It's like Jim saying here these kids are not born prejudiced. It's something we do to them as a society, and I'm using that as a great big we, you know, in terms of society. And that's what needs to change. And I think it's really important. Certainly I see, you [00:43:00] know, like of all the teachers that I work with, so many are supportive and so many are terrified to say anything. There's a real atmosphere there of being well, you lose your job well, they're right, you know. But that fear is wrong. It's absolutely wrong and we need more openness in schools. We need more transparency and where the school is not prepared to do that. What we need to do is have a QS a in the area where those kids can go to in the interim until we [00:43:30] can make the school do that. By that, I don't mean PD for the teachers, which generally can be a large waste of time because a lot of them are already very open to that. But the senior management teams tend to be so conservative, and so much of that spectrum of a much older New Zealand that just is not open to different cultures. And that's where we need to be working on those senior management teams and those principles. They need to realise that the world's turned. It's changed, and it's [00:44:00] time to accept that and get on with it and celebrate it. Um, move ransom. I went to college, and it's in a little place called Levin. Um, I didn't have any trouble because when I mentioned to Mum that, um, they maybe wouldn't do the, um, whole kids and marriage thing. She thought that I'd get bashed. So, um, to reassure my mom and make sure that she didn't worry while I was at college. Um, all I did was make [00:44:30] sure that those rugby eggs knew that I would punch their head. And if they, you know, gave me any grief, So I'm I'm a bit like muff as to, um I never saw it as a problem. So, um, if you if you have the energy of not like taking any homophobic shit, then I don't think it happens as bad because they know, you know, it's an unacceptable, um, kind of thing. Um, [00:45:00] yeah, but it's it's what? Um, my name's Andrew. And, uh, there's just a couple of things I want to note on here. Um, I'm from Dunedin and I went to John McGlashen College. So on one hand, I can also understand where moves coming from, where in some places there's an attitude that sort of you've got to sort of stand up or physical violence. But in a lot of ways, I also see that as being completely [00:45:30] not OK and I'm really glad there are systems like the Q SAS that allow these Children and youth to group together as a community. Um, the two things I want to note on here was one that I've just finished a preliminary study of Q SAS and schools dealing with these issues that, uh, even though it was only preliminary, found that there was a strong correlation between distance to, um support networks and Q SAS [00:46:00] and the level of sort of homophobia that's seen inside the schools. Um, so that I'm looking forward to looking into further. And the second is that I was recently in in Dunedin and I was in a store talking with one of the staff members, and they casually use the word gay in conversation as a reference to Bad. And I had first walked away from this, uh, but then decided that I couldn't went back and confronted them about this and the response I got. [00:46:30] Well, the one that I was expecting was one of basically being told to stuff off. Instead, the response I got was one that was very apologetic, very understanding. And then a conversation followed where we talked about this. Now, this young man had just finished high school, had just left King's high school, which is also very conservative and also was a, um, young Maori youth And what outstanding me [00:47:00] there was in Dunedin where the attitude was you had to be a hard man, especially, um, and please excuse any stereotypes, but especially in a very white place like Dunedin, where Maori and Pacific Island youth aren't allowed to show any sort of acceptance of other students that aren't sort of your typical rugby players. It was just so great to see this complete attitude shift. [00:47:30] So I would encourage you guys to use this opportunity and with all the stuff that's happening around the campaign to find that break into the South Island and use this chance to build on it. Hi there. My name is Chris. I once survived five years at Napi Boys High School, and my overriding memory of that time is just [00:48:00] complete alienation and isolation and not say. And this when you talked about this, um, taping off the mouth that I just so relate to that because that's exactly how it was. I was never bullied. I was never. But I was completely silent. And, um and I suppose my life has just been a slow process of pulling that tape off my mouth, and it continues to the stove. [00:48:30] So I really congratulate you guys. It's fantastic. I'm Margaret Ma and I'm sorry. I was a little bit late coming into the session, and and one of the reasons I was late is that I was talking to somebody who is still being somebody in their fifties who's being persecuted because, um, of the by by conservative Christians and so I I would think it is so important, um, to get the message that you're getting out to young people. Um, you know, [00:49:00] I went to Craighead Diocesan School in Timaru in the seventies. Um, and that was it. It was being a girl, Um, and thinking you might be gay, which should cross my mind at the time, though, it took me a long time to kind of come to terms with it. It was much easier, I think, because, you know, girls can have really close friendships and hug and hold hands. And, you know, and we all you know, you can have girl crushes on head prefects and all that sort of stuff. That's completely fine. It was then, um but now I have an association with Queen Margaret College as as, um, Presbyterian minister at Saint Andrews. [00:49:30] And I was on their board for six years and I think, um I think church schools are still an area, um that needs, you know, to be addressed and to be encouraged. And one of the, um and I think, you know, by having an out lesbian on their board and involvement in leading worship for the school, that was sort of a good message that they sent even though they weren't really particularly overt about that. But I know that the girls who needed to know knew And, um, I was really thrilled when I went to speak to the school's out group a few couple of years ago. And there are these girls in Queen Margaret uniforms [00:50:00] and, um yeah, so I. I think it's really important that that suggestion that somebody made that there would be sort of off campus places for people to go as well, and so that they can network and, you know, and I. I think the issues are still huge for people in provinces and rural areas and really support whatever you can do in that area. Cool. Ok, thank you, everyone. Um, maybe if there's any final questions or comments or anything [00:50:30] No. OK, cool. Thank you all so much. feel free to come up and talk to us about anything that's come up for you. Um and Yeah. Remember our Facebook thing? Um, yeah. Stay in contact. Let let people know that we exist because we are new. And it's really important to kind of get the word out there. Especially, um, to people working or studying in schools. Um, yeah. Thank you for listening. And having us here [00:51:00] agree. Thank.

IRN: 686
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ATL REF: OHDL-004079
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089373
TITLE: The Legislative Process
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Bill Logan; Fran Wilde; Ian McKellen; Jan Logie; Katherine O'Regan; Louisa Wall; Rangimoana Taylor; Tau Henare; Tim Barnett; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Anti-Homosexuality Bill (Uganda); Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Bill Logan; Bill of Rights Act (1990); Christchurch; Civil Union Act (2004); Colin Moyle; Common Ground (Wellington); Community Law (Wellington); Fran Wilde; Georgina Beyer; HIV / AIDS; Homosexual Law Reform Society; Hugh Young; Human Rights Act (1993); Ian McKellen; Jan Logie; Katherine O'Regan; Kay Jones; Kevin Haunui; Legislative Council Chamber; Louisa Wall; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Marriage Equality Conference (2012); New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Pacific; Parliament buildings; Prostitution Reform Act (2003); Rangimoana Taylor; Rawa Karetai; Robert Muldoon; Shelley Te Waiariki Howard; Tau Henare; Tim Barnett; Tony Reed; Tīwhanawhana; Uganda; United Kingdom; Venn Young; Warren Freer; Wellington; activism; age of consent; civil unions; community; courts; crime; demonstrations; disability; discrimination; diversity; education; employment; equality; gay liberation movement; health system; homosexual law reform; human rights; law; marriage; marriage equality; media; organising; police; public figure; school; sex work; sexuality; social justice; women
DATE: 30 November 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Legislative Council Chamber, Parliament buildings, Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the first keynote panel discussion: Sexual Minorities and the Legislative Process.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um I am not pretty serious here. He couldn't be here tonight. He had a to go to at home. So you got me tonight instead? My name is and I'm gonna just explain some of the things that we do because we live in a bicultural country. So the first one or I'm going to do and don't get it confused with the prayer. It's something that just goes forth and it [00:00:30] talks about the three baskets of knowledge that were brought here for all people. And we talk about a god or a demigod or whatever you like. However, you like to personify that his name is and he brought back from the heavens three baskets. The first one was to say, Whatever your talent is, use it to the best of your ability. And don't let anyone [00:01:00] try and trample it. The second one says people will. There are other things. But the second one also reminds you of your mortality that you have a time to do it. And it's now the third one says this no matter how hard it is, there are always people who love you. You will always have friends. And remember those people when things are [00:01:30] really tough. And these three baskets those seeds were planted in Papa Mother Earth. And because of that, the people could arrive into this world into the world of light. So then [00:02:00] you need to hit your height. [00:02:30] The next is to say to all those who have lost people, no matter who you are, that there is a time of mourning. But there is also a time to rejoice. And if you've ever been to a Maori, we do both [00:03:00] in our and now to you, to all the people who are here. [00:03:30] I just said that there is a building over there which we call the Beehive. And often it was translated that [00:04:00] it is the honey house. But let you let me remind you, it was also the House of States. [00:04:30] Get out of to men and women to those who are transgender and those who are taken on that journey. Do we greet you? I have No, I have No. [00:05:00] No matter who you are, no matter where you are from, you are on. And let me please define this word to weave the people. [00:05:30] If we the singers are coming down, you know? [00:06:00] Yeah, [00:06:30] [00:07:00] [00:07:30] [00:08:00] [00:08:30] But then I go through, Um I forgot to actually mention one person who is very important. Someone who fought for us during the eighties when it was really difficult. I would like to acknowledge Fran wild here tonight to say thank you for what you did for us [00:09:00] was without with what you did, we would not be here tonight. Thank you. The the order for those who have gone before us let them be together. [00:09:30] But this is our chance now, as the living to make the changes. Not so will that we will be remembered not as individuals, but as the Children, the gay Children that are being born tonight, the gay Children who don't know it yet and are going to go through very hard times. We have to be there for them. [00:10:00] Thank you. Yeah. [00:10:30] [00:11:00] Um um, don't worry. We have, um we get on. Well, we get on. Well, um, as you know, um, I put my name up to be, um, speaker And, uh, what, you might not know, but I did. And when I get that, uh, that job is up to my colleagues [00:11:30] from across the house not from my colleagues, Um, that I sit with in the party and something struck me, Uh uh, a couple of weeks ago, uh, about why we why we do what we do regardless of whether we're a national or or labour or the Greens or New Zealand first or whoever. And it was when Jan, uh, rang me and asked me to cosponsor this evening. [00:12:00] And II I was wondering why why should I cosponsor it? And she And she told me that, um, the speaker of the house and I'm and I'm always getting into trouble. So So? So here we go again. Lockwood, Um, Lockwood. She basically said, uh, to Jan, uh, That, uh, she couldn't not host this on her own because it was too political. [00:12:30] And, um, But when I stepped in to co-host, it was OK, um, and I think that's terribly, terribly wrong. Uh, she, uh, is an MP. Just like me. Has the same mama as an MP. As I do, uh, has has every right to use these, uh, halls, um, on behalf of [00:13:00] whoever she thinks, uh, wants to use them in in any way, as long as it's, uh, in a respectful manner. So my shot across the bow tonight is actually not about what we're here to talk about, but is about the House of Representatives, because it is a house of Representatives. And, you know, back in 93 when I when I came in here, um, I was only 33 years old. I had a full head of hair a lot. [00:13:30] It's a lot slimmer. Um, and and I was told by an old, uh on the very day that I gave my maiden speech, he pointed to the side door, Uh, if you if you look at the front of this building, uh, and you look to the left of the stairs, there is actually a door there, but you can't go through it anymore. That's where my grand, my great grandfather and a number of his colleagues had to go through [00:14:00] it couldn't go through the main door. Um, it was only for a short while, but it. But it said to me that Hey, um, every year, every every new person in here, like myself, and like, jab, we're here to knock down a few walls. We're here to open up a few doors along the way, and some people might not agree with us. Some people will agree with with with us. Um, thank God for Louisa. Louisa. Um, and, [00:14:30] uh, the courage that she, um, has basically shown the house that, um every day is the time for equal opportunities, Every day is the time for equal rights. You know, I grew up in the in the so-called movement, basically, because I thought it was romantic. Um, you know, fight the good fight and all of that. That was cool. Um, and it was the, uh, you know, we were young and we were [00:15:00] and full of full of energy. And and, um and I and I learned, uh, AAA saying back then in the seventies and eighties, and it was no one is free until we're all free. And I hold that to be true, uh, to to everything that we do. And it might be, uh, on the Tory side. Uh, it might be on the red side. Might be on the green side. Might be on the black and white [00:15:30] side. Um, what are the colours of red and black side and might be on the Maori party side. Um, it could be on the side. Um, who knows? Um, but I think that that, uh, uh, Jan uh, calling this meeting and hosting this meeting, this is she is the host. I'm I. I refuse to believe that I'm a co-host. Um, she's the host. And so, uh, big [00:16:00] ups to Jan for wanting to use What is the House of Representatives for AAA An issue, Uh, that, I'm sure will be talked around about around the world when we come to our senses in a couple of months time, and we all vote Well, most of us vote in favour, Uh, of Luisa's bill. Um, to my, uh I don't know how to, um, ex explain this. I mean, I've got my colleagues here, my parliamentary colleagues, but I also have two. [00:16:30] I suppose colleagues, uh, Fran and Catherine, uh, who have, uh, graced these These halls, uh, before me, uh, and did a a damn good job before me as well. Um, welcome. Welcome back. And, uh, I was told to keep it short. You know, they're not even here, and they're still giving me orders. Um, but that's OK, because, [00:17:00] uh, I'll tell you what, I. I don't despise any member of Parliament. Even Trevor? No, Um because I reckon. And I believe and I will hold to this till the day I die that every member of Parliament comes in here wanting to change the world. However they see fit. And And I take my hat off to, uh, MP S from the past. And I [00:17:30] say to those of you, uh, who want to be members of parliament, go for it. It it it is a great job. It is a privilege to to do the job. And, um, I hope to be speaker in a couple of months. Um, I know some some, you know, in in in my heart of hearts, it most probably won't happen because the establishment won't let it happen. You know, I I'm I. I I'm I'm not I don't see myself as part of the box. I see [00:18:00] myself sometimes outside the box. Anyway, have a good, uh, tonight, Uh, have a good um and, uh, Jan your turn to tell me to sit down. Brilliant. Um, so this is and I also just to say that for me, that what was saying about the principle of this being an open space is actually a really important principle. And it is a principle [00:18:30] for me. I am here at the behest of the community. It was a big word to use at this time of day, but, um, you know that this is a community space. This is a space where all of us should be able to come and contest our ideas, and that should not be a restrictive space. So I'm really thankful for for enabling this to happen and, you know, and for me being lucky enough to have the privilege of being able to be the conduit for that to happen, [00:19:00] Um so this today, you know the time we're in at the moment, it's really a defining time for New Zealand as marriage equality is being debated by Parliament. Obviously, Um, and I think the panel discussion tonight is the opening of the Marriage Equality Conference, Um, which is bringing together tonight? Um, some quite amazing people who have championed the rights of gays, lesbians, bisexuals, [00:19:30] transgender and intersex people in our country for over 30 years. It's I think this is a pretty sacred space, actually, for 30 years of people fighting for all of our rights, that's a very precious opportunity to be able to reflect and acknowledge and look forward. Um, we have tonight the honourable Fran Wilde, who was the leader of the parliamentary campaign for Homosexual Law Reform, which decriminalised [00:20:00] male sexual act homosexual activity in 86. The honourable Catherine O'Regan, who was the leader of the parliamentary campaign for broadening the human rights legislation to outlaw discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation in 1994. Tim Barnett, who was the leader of the parliamentary campaign for prostitution Law reform in 2003 and civil unions in 2004. [00:20:30] And, of course, our current Wonderful of Wall, who's the leader of the current parliamentary campaign. And tonight we're also gonna have the, um, rather wonderful Sir Ian McAllen speaking to us by video who, you know, I think of as our red shirt wearing global champion of half and scream. So it's a pretty amazing lineup, and I feel really privileged to be able to, you know, consider myself, or at least use the name of host to such incredible [00:21:00] people. Um, I'd also like to just acknowledge in that space. Um, Georgina Baer, who, by being elected as the first transgender transsexual member of Parliament anywhere in the world, made headlines around the entire world and opened up possibilities for Children everywhere to be able to be themselves in a way that was never possible before that happening. [00:21:30] And while she was here, I believe she set a real example of integrity and honour and made a real difference in this house. So I'd like to acknowledge her. And, of course, my wonderful colleague, Green Party colleague Kevin Hague, who you know from it's has been really involved in these campaigns from outside of Parliament and is now here in Parliament taking the other side of this and had his bill in the ballot [00:22:00] to try and increase the chances of marriage, equality happening. And, you know, we're happy Lewis's bill got drawn because it's all about the same the same battle. And Kevin is as much a leader in this, I think as anyone. Um, so I'm you know, I know everyone's here to hear, hear everyone else. I just have a few other things to say, Um, but I and I just want to say, You know, I'm almost embarrassed to be hosting such luminaries when I feel like I'm such a new be to [00:22:30] all of this. Um, but for all that, it's rather great. Um, you know, and it's and one of the reasons I'm really loving it is because and I shouldn't have used that phrase. Um, but it's good to remember that what this Parliament does can make a real difference. You know that it can make a difference to individuals, to families and entire communities and while removing discriminatory laws. I'm not gonna pretend for a second [00:23:00] that that's going to finish discrimination, and it's really important to acknowledge that otherwise we'll actually just keep hiding the discrimination. But what it does is removes a foundation that allows that discrimination to keep itself alive. And for me, that is so important. And actually, it's also good to acknowledge that what this Parliament does can make a real difference globally, and the world at the moment is dividing [00:23:30] in two directions. There is a conservative, regressive force that's being led by Russia that is trying to squash the progress of sexual orientation and gender identity rights and put over the top squash it by this belief that traditional values are incompatible with sexual orientation, rights and gender identity. So I'm very grateful to be in this country [00:24:00] where so much work has been done to uncover the traditional stories and the traditional values that acknowledge Tak and acknowledge our diverse identities. And New Zealand, I think, has a really important role to play in that. And it's been great with and to be able to be a little part of that in terms of challenging what's happening in Uganda at the moment. And we can do that from a place of the progress that New Zealand has made thanks [00:24:30] to these people in the front row, each and every one of you. Um and it's, I think, also just a really wonderful opportunity to while I'm somebody that likes movements and collective collectivity, it is it's nice even for me to be able to acknowledge individual leadership. It's not often I do that, but tonight is for me really one of those times because, um, I know like the Green Party has policy on sexual orientation and gender [00:25:00] identity rights, which means for us that any of these votes it's party policy. We don't have to separate ourselves out. We have that base as a caucus, but no other party has that base. So every time one of those MP S stands up, I think it's a huge act of courage because it's standing up where there is no policy base, not having that unanimous support behind you to act. And that is something I think [00:25:30] that we should celebrate. Is that courage and that leadership? Um, yeah, So it's an honour for me tonight to be able to co-host these exceptional leaders. We're obviously not at the end of the journey. We still have to pass marriage. Equality feels like a done deal, but I know that that's Lewis will be going. Don't say that he jinx it, but, um, and we still need to clarify gender identity within our human rights [00:26:00] legislation as a basis for non-discrimination and get rid of a raft of other discriminatory policies that are discriminating against transgender and transsexual people. But I am so pleased after the day I've had to be able to take some time out and just soak in some success stories and believe that a world entirely free of discrimination might just be around the corner because so much [00:26:30] has been done in 30 years. So, so much more is possible in the next 30. So thank you all for coming And for our wonderful speakers for being the examples you are and welcome to the Marriage Equality Conference. [00:27:00] My name is and and I'm the conference chair. Conference is officially open. Thank you to and Jan for hosting us here tonight. Thank you to and for the Maori. Welcome in the song. And finally thank you to all of you who have come here tonight and participated in conference. We do have an amazing agenda lined up for you this weekend And while Sir Ian McKellen couldn't be here at the Hobbit premier Sorry. [00:27:30] Couldn't be at the Hobbit premiere this week. We have him here and he has a special a special message for you all. Hello. This is Ian McKellen and I'm in London. Ever since New Zealand gave women the vote before any other country in the world, the rest of the world has looked in New Zealand for social advance. And here we are again, and this time, with the exciting prospect [00:28:00] of the possibility of people of the same gender being able to get married and join the rest of the population. It will be a popular move. I know. And I'm glad that all major political parties have embraced it. Supported? I know, too by, uh, the younger generation who say things a lot more clearly than people of my age. Anyway, my support is with you. And And I hope that by the time I get back to middle Earth, um, I [00:28:30] might even be able to get married. Yeah, Um, just like, um So I said that, um, he'd like to be able to come back and off, sort of get married. And, uh, so tonight it's everything's been complimentary, but a or a conference need support. [00:29:00] I have a few other people have. We're gonna pass it around if you can. If you have. If you can put a donation of something would be really good. If you can't do it tonight, bring it tomorrow. Bring it Sunday. We don't mind. So I think this is, by the way, this is Bill Logan's idea. It's not mine. So you have to do it. So I'm gonna I pass my head. I'm not even gonna look for now. [00:29:30] So thank you. Thank you for hosting us and and thank you all for coming here today. And thank you for your belief in equality. Are there so many people who should be acknowledged and aren't going to be, uh, two people here who haven't been mentioned are Des and John, who've just been here forever. Um, no. [00:30:00] Hey, we've got an amazing group of guests today. These are the former MP S who fronted the reforms of the last 30 years the reforms which have been a crucial part of that huge cultural shift which has started to transform the lives of those of us who don't fit the heterosexual norm. [00:30:30] The pivotal event was the homosexual law reform of 1984 85 which resulted in the removal of criminal sanctions against gay men. This was 16 months of ferment in which hundreds of thousands of people in this country started to treat non heterosexuals [00:31:00] decently. Fran Wild's role in that was central and irreplaceable. And I must say that as social Democrats go, she was damned good to work with too. I love you. She went on to be a Cabinet minister and then mayor of Wellington and CEO of Trade New Zealand. And she's currently [00:31:30] chair of the Wellington Regional Council. So the floor and, um um, we were asked to speak for 15 minutes, and I thought it might be a good idea to speak for a little less, and then we have some conversation. Is that all right? But I will just give you a couple of thoughts about how things happened. [00:32:00] You know, from my perspective, Um, there were several parties needed to get gay law reform through. And remember that when this bill was introduced, it had the human rights part in it, too, and we couldn't get that through. And I think MP S voted that down, and that was the kind of insurance policy as they saw it. So thank you. Others who came later and and, um, you know, fix that. But first of all, [00:32:30] yes, they needed an MP who would not only introduce it, but see it through and lead the fight if you want here. And that MP needed people in the house on both sides of the house. Who would be the champions, and Catherine of course, was on the other side of the house, but was the most staunch champion and worked with me and the other MP S to get the coalition together here and then And the most important party [00:33:00] I think was the gay community, gay and lesbian community. Um, this bill would not have gone through without people coming out. It was visibility that made this bill happen, because up until then, uh, there had been several attempts to get Gayla reform through. And I just want to acknowledge, you know, that there were a number of MP S performing, particularly young, tried and Warren free. We were just trying to think who else did? There will be some historians in the audience who will know, but, [00:33:30] um, it really required, um, the majority of New Zealanders to actually understand that there was nothing in this that was going to have any impact on them whatsoever, except possibly that their workmates or their, um, brothers or or their sons might actually have a better life. But there was no negative impact for other people. And to do that, they had to see that the stereotype [00:34:00] that had been put up about gay people for a long time. Um, it all my life that I can remember was not actually true. And, um So during the course of the bill, from the time it was introduced, more and more gay men came out, and I personally saw a shift in people that I knew shift in their opinion shift in their views as they suddenly began to realise [00:34:30] that you know, the guy they worked with or, you know, the the neighbour or people just ordinary kiwis were actually gay, and they were really nice people. Um wow. Um, and they weren't child molesters. And, you know, they they This was really, really critical. I cannot tell you how important that was. And so, um, there was a huge campaign and I I mean, I could talk to you for about three hours on this, so I won't, [00:35:00] um, happy to answer questions. But just to tell you that that was the most important thing, it was people standing up for their own human rights. Actually, that got this bill through. And we had to convince members of Parliament that the electorate would not punish them for voting for us. That was effectively what it was when it was introduced. Um, the first read in those days, unlike today, there was a kind of a gentleman's agreement, and it was gentleman's because there were mainly men in the house who, [00:35:30] um, that that when you when a private members bill was introduced, it always got a first reading. And then and then later on, it was just torpedo at the select committee. Basically, they never saw the light of day again. So I kind of counted on the on getting it introduced. But I knew that on the day it was introduced, if we'd had the third reading that day, it would have been completely obliterated. There were, I think, 19 MP S that we knew we could count on to vote for it on that day and then [00:36:00] graduate. So we knew that between the first reading and the third reading, we had to actually build up those numbers, and we it wasn't necessarily just by directly lobbying the MP S ourselves, that wasn't going to cut it. It was actually by their electorates, giving them permission to vote for it. And how did we did do that? By giving the people in their electorate. Um, a new view of the gay community in New Zealand. So this was a massive campaign. I mean, my I was the party whip [00:36:30] at the time, which was really useful in terms of getting the bill through. I have to say you parliamentarians will know what it means about leave and that sort of stuff. Um, giving the right people leave on the right day was important for me. So we got lots of invitations for people like Norm Jones to go and speak all over the country on Wednesdays. Um, and he always got leave from, you know, both the works were very helpful. Um, and so, um, you know, it was about [00:37:00] people. We had this huge campaign, and we we targeted public opinion, basically. And so there was an educational side. There was we had masses of leaders coming in. Des des was one of the volunteers actually in my office, and we just had, uh I it was so big. I don't want to begin to describe it. And now it was a massive campaign, and we had it was kind of quite well run, I think, and we had groups all over the country and the gay community organise themselves, [00:37:30] and they did all of this thing in their communities. But I cannot emphasise enough how important it was for those brave people who were illegal at the time. Some of you here tonight, um, to actually publicly say I'm gay and I'm proud of it. And this legislation has to come through because it's about me as a New Zealander being 100% New Zealand, and that was what it was about. So I just want to thank you. Actually, tonight this is my opportunity again to thank the gay community at the time for doing what they did. It was an incredible [00:38:00] thing to ask of a person, some that these guys were in really small communities. Uh, very conservative, you know, traditional, quite homophobic, I suspect. And they actually were, were had the the you know, they were brave enough to come out and say, Yes, it's it matters. I'm going to do this, um, and not hide away anymore. And so, um, we watched that there was the homophobia was huge, as as I personally think, it's got better in New [00:38:30] Zealand. But there is still a strong element. And the fundamentalist churches were just on the rampage. It was scary what they were doing. And so it wasn't just, um uh, kind of, um it was actually physical bravery for people to do that to declare who they were. At that time, there was a real danger that they would be hurt in some way. So I, um, Bill, I'm not gonna I I've I can lots of war stories, [00:39:00] but maybe we hear the other speakers, and then we can have some discussion. Is that all right with you? I just want to salute Louisa, because this is another part of the jigsaw puzzle that we have to put together in this country. Um uh, we've had the other bits of legislation that were mentioned tonight, and, um, the other panellists have been responsible for helping get that through with that community support. And there is still more to go. I think the transgender, um um [00:39:30] the way transgender people are treated in the law in New Zealand is not acceptable. I think there's a lot of things we still have to do. And I suppose the gay law reform was kind of like the linchpin to start all of that, but there's still a long way to go. So, Lewis, I do wish you luck with the with the bill been watching your, um your struggles with great interest and particularly with your own Pacifica people. It's really hard when it's your own people saying that to you so good on you and more strength to you. So [00:40:00] thank you, everyone for tonight for coming. And let's have a discussion. We've always sought allies from across the political spectrum and especially from the liberal wing of the National Party. Then Young and George Gere, uh, played honourable roles. Our next [00:40:30] guest was a four term member of Parliament, responsible in 1993 I think, for getting through the extension of the human rights legislation to protect against discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation or HIV status. Mostly. So I want to introduce the honourable Catherine O'Regan. Mm. [00:41:00] Good evening, everybody. And thank you for the invitation to come and speak at this very important conference. And Fran has certainly brought back lots of memories for me, things that I'd forgotten about. And, um, I want to acknowledge first of all my colleagues, particularly Fran and Tim and and Lea and I'm delighted to share the platform tonight with them. I recently shared a platform with Louisa [00:41:30] at, um, Marilyn 60th birthday party in Auckland. And, uh, that was a lot of fun saying really nice things about Marilyn. And, uh, it was good for her to have to sit and listen for for two days, which she doesn't normally like doing. So, um um, thank you. And I want to start by first of all, apologising to transgender people for not including you in that bill. We did discuss it a lot, [00:42:00] and I thought, I'm only going to get this far this time. It was a bit like Fran was just saying now that when she introduced the complete homosexual law Reform bill, we had the part about human rights the house would only go so far. And rather than lose the whole or you had to lose something, And I'm afraid that I think that the transgender issue was just that little bit too far. I would love to have done [00:42:30] it, And I hope that somebody does that very soon. Um, Fran was very brave doing what she did. Because I remember all sorts of things happened to her. Um, disgraceful, disgusting things I didn't think people could be. So, um, unkind. And, um, it was not good at all. However, being a conservative from a conservative party, it was quite interesting on the last, um, on the last vote, I'm not sure I couldn't find how many of us from [00:43:00] the Tory party came over and voted. I know that there were 11 in the first reading that supported the bill. Um, but at the end, I found myself squeezed into a seat with I think it was Judy Keel and her bench mate. And there were the three of us in there. I did this for support because I don't think I had much from my own colleagues by that stage. Norm Jones, of course, would rail on in the in the lobby about it, and, uh, what was interesting? I heard a lot of stories [00:43:30] that the men told me or confided in me about things that had happened to them when they were boys, and I think it coloured their thinking a great deal. So, um, but, uh, at that stage I shared my seat with Judy. It was probably the closest I ever got to being, um, a part of the, um the red scene, so to speak. So however, however, now somebody once said to me, um, how did you, um, you know, have you always been a Tory? Have you been or and have you always been a liberal [00:44:00] on particularly on issues about gay rights? So I guess the answer to both of those is yes. And, um, I've always been a fan of Oscar Wilde and since I was a young girl And, of course, his life was a wonderful, wonderfully sad life. Um, and, uh, at the time, back in 1972 I watched the, uh, naked civil servant. I'd not long been married, and I watched the film about Quentin Crisp and I on television, and I [00:44:30] had not long had a son. And I was hanging out the nappies on the clothes line on a crisp morning. And I was thinking about the film from the night before, and I thought to myself, What would I say to that little lad if he came to me and said he was gay? There's No way I could say, um, you you can't be and all of the rest of it. And I hope that we, my husband and I at that time would create an environment where if he ever felt he had to confide in us, that he could come [00:45:00] to us. However, I didn't know I was going to Parliament, and I didn't know I was going to end up doing what I did. So this evening we've been asked to do a legislative retrospective on how things were at the given time and in relation to events which took place at the time. And my time was 1992 post election of 1991. Uh, when the National Party became the government and Jim Bulger was the prime minister. I was appointed a minister outside Cabinet with responsibility for a consumer affairs. [00:45:30] But I had an associate role as M as associate health, and Simon Upton was the lead minister at the time. Now my role was to, um uh, that I've been given was, uh, communicable diseases, uh, area, and certainly with sexual matters to do with sexual health Now, at the time, you may recall some of you will that the figures for HIV aids were increasing. And as it is today, it was men who have sex with men who were the highest of the numbers. And the best line of defence [00:46:00] then and still is today is to wear a condom. And the message hasn't changed. Bodies involved in advising the health ministers and Fran set a lot of these up because was it Fran, or was it the Minister of health at the time? Fran, who set that was in New Zealand. Um, there was the National Council on AIDS and and, um Others. Now, New Zealand AIDS Foundation was established in those early days, and it was under strong and intelligent leadership. Um, with [00:46:30] Warren Lindbergh, The National Council on AIDS, which was established under the Labour government, continued through my time. And I had Peggy Coopman. Boyden was the chair and she was a a AAA in this on this issue, Uh, it consisted of veo researchers, AIDS Foundation people, Kevin Hague At one stage, I think, was on the National foundation on the National Council too. And even religious people, I think, on that council for a while, public policies [00:47:00] people and and they kept ministers and government informed and enabled us to make appropriate decisions. Now I was advised, because people with HIV AIDS or those who feel that they had it, did not have any protection against discrimination. They are unwilling to present for tests because of the fear of exposure and of its consequences. There was this constant prejudice, fueled by the fear and ignorance. Fear to face the truth on behalf of those who are at risk [00:47:30] fear to come forward, fear of exposure, fear of finding out fear of losing friends. The problem of under testing, we were told, was that it had serious implications for HIV prevention. Since individuals who are ignorant of their health status may unknowingly put others at risk. Studies showed that those who were informed and counselled were more likely to adopt safe sex practises around about that time. [00:48:00] Police Police Commissioner Jamison was the uh was not very sympathetic to my call. I called him into my office and I can't believe I did this. I called him. I called him into my office and ripped into him and said he was to stop the, um uh, resting men around the bogs in the Auckland. This was and the the foundation workers were being arrested as well for getting out the message. Trying to trying to stop people from, uh, well, giving out condoms, [00:48:30] even at the very most. So I hauled him in, and I had the I don't know how I got the courage to do it, because I look back down. I called him in and I told him off. Oh, dear. Ok, so he even made a personal submission, Um, to the bill. Uh, obviously didn't like what I was doing at all to know what happened. There had been a Human Rights Commission amendment bill in the House introduced by the then minister. [00:49:00] Um, this was prior, prior to 91 Justice Minister Bill Jeffries. But it lapsed at the time of the change of government in 1991. Doug Graham had responsibility now for a new piece of legislation which, amongst other things, brought the race relations under the Human Rights Commission, and he also removed some other things that the Jeffries Bill sought to do. And the national government didn't agree with. I wouldn't I didn't bother going through what those were the new bill included disability [00:49:30] age, political opinion and various other matters, including the two clauses that I wanted to, um and and make sure we were there. And that was on sexual orientation and having diseases in the body, which may cause illness. Now the National Party National Cabinet signed off on it other than Graham Lee, and he wasn't there. But Johnny Banks was in cabinet. Um, but it did fall at the caucus gate. After a great deal of discussion and heated debate. The [00:50:00] two clauses were put to the vote. Uh, and they decided against including the clauses in the bill to introduce into the House. The vote was only too short 25 23. So it was very, very close. The National Party was clearly split, but it was a majority. Nevertheless, this meant that the bill that Doug Graham would be introducing would be done without these two important clauses. This disappointed me, as you can imagine, and the New Zealand AIDS Foundation expressed their dismay as I knew they would. However, [00:50:30] all was not lost. There were discussions a foot to ensure that somehow those clauses would be included. Speculation on how featured in several newspapers at the time. So how would I, as an individual amend the legislation? I was a minister. Ministers can't introduce private members bills. Um, but that would have to be a back bencher that did that. Um and the reason for that is that as being a minister, I was a part of the executive, and Parliament is for members, [00:51:00] not for the executive. Besides that process of private members, Bills was along and talked to his path, even for a backbencher. No things needed to move then and straight away. And it seemed appropriate to me that we did it when the bill was in the select committee and we'd get on with the job. So we finally came up with a solution. And I. I think it was just something we talked about a great deal. As the minister of justice and minister in charge of the legislation, Doug would introduce the bill. And during the debate, [00:51:30] I would give notice that I intended to introduce an amendment in the form of a supplementary order paper later in the process, and I was to invite the Select committee to call for submissions on the matter, the clauses would be a conscience vote in the House. This was checked out to be constitutional. But even today I think it has created some interest. Um, because there would be some debate around this method. But the clerk of the House's view was sought, and he didn't see [00:52:00] anything wrong with it. I don't think it's been done before, and I don't think it's been done since. So, um, it might be worth remembering if you need to. From the start, I had emphasised the health aspect of the need of this legislation in an attempt to persuade the Doubters. Later in my speech to the House, I said that I was seeking to amend the bill not only on the grounds of human rights but also on the grounds of public health and the health of individuals. Now, the results of a poll commissioned by the [00:52:30] AIDS Foundation, undertaken by a GB McNair, was released in the late November early December 1992 and indicated just how far the populace had moved on this issue. From the time when Fran had had introduced homosexual law reform, the sky had not fallen in after the law reform in 86 and people felt comfortable about the proposed changes. Mr. Jamison didn't like that at all. Neither did Mr Banks. So, um, the bill was duly introduced on the 15th of December [00:53:00] and read a first time and sent off to the Select committee. Now the Select Committee sent it, Established a subcommittee to hear the bill. And I spent some time today in these hallowed halls, actually in the labour in the opposition lobby, climbing the ladder, reading the debates from that time because I couldn't remember who was who were the people involved. So I thought I better get this right now. The Select committee was chaired by Graham Reeves, and the subcommittee was formed [00:53:30] with Graeme Reeves and the chair John Robertson from the National Party and and and Graeme Reeves, um, Leanne Dalal and Steve Mahay. Now, uh, the the members, the there were staff who actually really served us served that committee really well. Janice Lowe in particular, Margaret Nixon and good old Walter Isles. They helped me with the wording of the bill because it was almost like a a minister's private bill, in a way, in a strange [00:54:00] sort of way. So I had to get help from the clerk's office to word it. Appropriately. Now, 700 submissions were received. 640 of those submissions received were about the the supplementary order paper. Now, this wasn't even in the house. The committee to be discussed. This is a sort of Clayton's amendment. I called it an amendment you have when you don't have an amendment. I had not introduced my supplementary order paper, and it wouldn't be done until the bill [00:54:30] was reported back to the House and in committee stages. That's when amendments are made at committee stages. So I hadn't done. I had just given notice that I was intending to do this, and I called upon the select committee. Um, if they and their wisdom could please, um, please call for submissions. And it would appear that, um, the chairman of the committee believed that it was quite within the competence of the committee to hear submissions and was happy to call for [00:55:00] them. So I was very, very pleased indeed. Now they heard submissions amidst a storm of anti homosexual rhetoric, which, no doubt you have all hearing again now. Uh, but Thankfully, it wasn't as bad as Fran had to put up with Graham Lee was with Graham. Capel spoke out and campaigned against it, as did John Banks. As a reporter said at the time. While this while there'll still be a battle, it's unlikely to bring the same all out war as before. And [00:55:30] one of my colleagues, backbench colleagues Peter Hilt, called for my resignation. I was really terrified about that. At one point in late February, I felt the necessity to reiterate publicly again the reasons behind the legislation and attempt to dispel the myths which had once again risen to the top of the murky misinformation pond. To my rescue came a very high profile human rights international human rights lawyer in the shape of the honourable justice Michael [00:56:00] Kirby of the High Court of Australia, who flew across the Tasman to help with lobbying in his own inimitable fashion. When the bill was reported back to the house in 93 I was sure we had the numbers and although just over half of my caucus did not support it with the majority of labour, MP S who did it was clear that this was going to become law. Today I find myself on the Waikato Diocese synod. And yes, the issue of ordination of gay ministers has hit the Anglican world. Britain is still getting [00:56:30] only used to women and still won't have women bishops. So But I digress. At a synod meeting last year, I found myself getting up to speak and using the same language that I'd used in 1993 in a debate about, uh um, a gay priests. I told the gathered synod that at the time I hoped that churches would see reason and change, and this is how human rights legislation works. But I was sad to say that this was not the case. And in the church we still discriminate strike despite the language [00:57:00] and despite being Christian, uh, against gay people and mainstream Anglicanism in New Zealand. Now this reform, as Fran has said in her, her, um, talk was really pushed. It was about gay people taking them this issue into their own hands. And this reform was we due to them and also to people like Warren Lindberg and Tony Hughes who came into my office, Peter Northcote, I think, was another who [00:57:30] came into my office and helped during those that time. There were many behind the scenes, and I can't remember their names and I. I also want to mention my own staff. Diana Marriott, my press secretary, was invaluable. She was just wonderful. And, um, my SBS Beverly Curb. I think they protected me from a lot of nonsense and nastiness, which probably came my way. So I sort of breezed on quite happily and not hearing any of the nasty stuff. [00:58:00] And, uh, Hugh Evans, who was my health private secretary. People in the Health Department and Justice Ministry were all extremely helpful. Now it's 20 years since I'd like to think that things have changed for gay people. I do not regret for one second what was done that year, and I still believe today that I would have been failing in my duty as a minister with responsibility for communicable diseases if I hadn't sought avenues that would stop the transmission of HIV AIDS or other communicable diseases. [00:58:30] In that speech, in the speech on the Sunday morning, I suggested that particular Sunday morning I suggested, and I quote in particular, human rights laws should adapt to the needs of a changing society. And although values may remain as a constant in which a society can be founded, how we achieve those values may change. We as a society speak freely of equality. We also expect to be treated equally before the law. And although legislation by itself does not remove prejudice from or discrimination [00:59:00] in people's hearts or minds, it serves as a signal that over discrimination is no longer acceptable and that in time itself changes attitudes. I concluded that speech by saying that we must recognise the human rights needs around us and help to create a neutral environment for those who, for whatever reason, have fewer rights than the rest of us. The extent to which we are able to do that will mean for many of us, a civilised and decent society. This issue must be addressed and [00:59:30] I believe that the amendments were very important and I shall conclude by reading a letter I received from a gay man. As a gay man, I have experienced the fear of discrimination by my employer because of the personal views of that employer. I know that attitudes cannot be changed overnight, but they can be influenced over time by such things as the human rights legislation. I seek to be judged for who I am for my work and for my successes and my failures, not on the basis of prejudice [01:00:00] had he not been persecuted. So I wonder what sort of life Oscar Wilde would have led. Thank you very much. Come. Thanks. So before, before he came back to New Zealand, Tim Barnett had a background in gay politics in the United Kingdom. As executive director of the Stonewall lobby, [01:00:30] he was a four term member of Parliament here, responsible for guiding through both the decriminalisation of prostitution and the civil Union bill. Since Parliament, I think he's been global programme manager for the World AIDS campaign and now he's back here as general secretary of the Labour Party. So, Tim, [01:01:00] But your and Bill, thank you for the introduction. And also thank you for the energy you've put into organising this event. Uh, I've got to admit to being the person who suggested we met in here, which I know has caused you endless hassle and led to the development of this very unusual national green alliance to actually get get us in here this evening. So that's a very, very exciting [01:01:30] indeed. And there is a relevance to this location. I mean, this was the site of a failed democratic institution, which was our upper house, which was abolished in the early 19 fifties. So it's been gone for a long time. And if you look at the record of the extreme conservatism in that chamber, I suspect if it hadn't been abolished, it would be really hard to get some of this legislation through. It was not a liberal advancing upper house. It was very much [01:02:00] the the dead rock of the ageing politicians sitting here stopping things happening. So this is a Another interesting thing about the context of law reform in New Zealand is that we work not only with a single chamber parliament, but as one of only two or three countries in the world without a written constitution. So we don't have constitutional rights to call on in doing this work and the legislation we've heard about and we're going to hear about and the legislation to come [01:02:30] is actually building up that body of rights, and one day maybe we will have something called a Constitution and somehow everything we're talking about today will need to be embedded in that document. But we do work in a really interesting and a different kind of environment where the people and the community have to pressure to make the happen because they don't happen otherwise. And I think that creates quite the different dynamics. If you look to countries like Canada, [01:03:00] they go to court to get ultimately the Supreme Court to say that the Constitution demands marriage or demands sex workers be decriminalised and then the parliament goes along with it. Here it has to be a community movement that leads to the change. I think that's important. My background before parliament and its interest in the common strands it involved emigrating here from the UK in 1991 in Britain. I was [01:03:30] in infamously known in the gay media as Britain's first professional homosexual, uh, which caused my mother a lot of angst. When she read it, she didn't know what to believe. But I I was the first person to be paid full time to work for lesbian and gay rights in Britain, which is so therefore it was technically accurate And that was for the Stonewall Group. And that's where I met Ian McKellen, who we just saw on the screen, who was part of a group of political and artistic luminaries called [01:04:00] Stonewall, which got set up to create equal rights under the law for lesbians and gay men. And I was the first staff member first director there, and that went on to succeed pretty well. I emigrated here in 1991 to Christchurch and got involved both through the AIDS Foundation in Auckland and through community activism down there in the pressures around the Human Rights Act. I mean, one of the interesting stories of that. It was a lobby by the lesbian community [01:04:30] in Christchurch on some of Catherine's quite conservative colleagues like Jenny Shipley, which actually led to that legislation being the first law in the world to actually contain the word lesbian. There was a change that was made along the way, and that was that was extraordinary. And we do actually, there are extraordinary things that happen along along all these stories, the AIDS Foundation, a really important place in offering kind of training and opportunities for people in this whole sector, I got involved [01:05:00] with them. And then in 1996 lucky. After having been here for quite a short time, I got selected and then elected to Parliament, an innocent young labour backbencher. And no sooner had I arrived and I was approached by a highly experienced older woman, slightly older woman who who politically seduced me into into taking on the project. She did mention which was the decriminalisation [01:05:30] of sex work, and it really did bounce out of all that work. And it was in some ways, in terms of the figures and in terms of the issues. Uh, it's probably the toughest one of all of them. I mean, certainly in terms of getting the legislation through. So Catherine and I, it was a very interesting model. The model actually goes back to the 19 eighties, when Helen Clark, as health minister and arranged funding for the prostitutes collective. So it was a community getting money for the first time, starting to organise [01:06:00] having some resonance with the media and realising that the legislative framework for sex work was the problem, and then starting to organise among conservatives and progressives in parliament and then over a period of probably six years, getting to the point where they were ready to start to write the legislation, and it's quite complicated. It's not as simple as Lewis's bill. It was very complicated legislation, and [01:06:30] it was drawing together a whole lot of nonsense and a whole lot of different laws, a lot of which were not what they seemed to be, because they were written to allow things to happen and allow the police to turn their face the other way. It was a complicated work. Catherine drove that between 96 and 99. We went on illicit visits to to the Sex worker community of Sydney. There were amazing cartoons featuring you on Yeah, dancing on tables and the National Party caucus and God knows what else. And anyway, [01:07:00] um, Catherine then had the misfortune to get selected to stand in, um, and a greater misfortune be up against Winston Peters and ended up out of parliament. So I was left holding, holding the baby of this piece of legislation and for a few months for the new Labour government. I thought, I'm not sure we need, uh, prostitution decrime as well as everything else But eventually we went ahead and put the bill in the ballot. Come really expecting that it would sit there for a year or two, and a week later it was drawn out. [01:07:30] I can remember standing there a biscuit tin. There's literally a biscuit tin, which is from which all the members ballots are drawn from which members were going to be there and there were 44 in there. Lewis had the same luck recently. There were 44 in there, and I think mine was number 44. It was the newest one in there and and we could go along and watch and they were drawing one out, and I just before they do it out, I said, I think it's going to be number 44 And it was It was And, um, my caucus [01:08:00] gave a collective sigh in a groan and thought, Heavens, what are we going to do? And then that led that process started, and that was, uh, that was a roar of a process. I think the president we broke was that, uh, legislation like that shouldn't be changed much by a select committee, and the committee completely rewrote it really to make it make it more fitting in with fitting in with the way that the legislation was was really moulded at that time and we went back into Parliament and it got through the first [01:08:30] stage by 87 to 21 so that was pretty easy. I'm sure to was against it very highly conservative at that time and then it went back into Parliament again. There been an election. We had a a lot of Christian conservatives in here and he got through the next stage by 64 to 56 at which stage we all started to panic a bit and it went into the most intense sort of three or four months of lobbying you can possibly imagine. I can remember when I looked at the final, [01:09:00] the final vote on that legislation, that the only way one could understand the two ways I mean, the Labour MPs tended to be in favour, which was good, but the gender mix was incredible was only one woman voted against. So the women in parliament got the issue. But most of the men didn't which it was Donna. Yeah, so it actually it was an extraordinary piece of legislation. Anyway, the final vote. I mean, the last week was people [01:09:30] were shifting sides the whole time, Uh, the day before the legislation, we were going to lose by one vote, and and there's a lot more to the story. But, um, we did one thing, which was again a statement about community lobbying. Uh, we had a colleague here, Winnie Laon, who had voted against the legislation but was a liberal Christian Samoan background. And one day the prostitutes collective were in here with the lobby team. And when they were in one corner [01:10:00] of the cafe here, and, uh, when he lay and was in another corner and I realised that one of the team was Samoan and I thought we haven't made the link. So we made the link. Later that day, they started talking. And on the day of the legislation's final vote, when he came to me and she said, I've changed my mind, I'm going to support it, but don't tell anyone, and then what happens? Uh, and Louisa will get this moment, and the fan had it, Uh, the speaker had a chat to me, and it would be to, But hopefully by then he'll be having a chat to Lusa, uh, about about the about [01:10:30] the order of the speakers in the final debate because the sponsor of the bill was allowed to give some indication from the people they want to speak. And I said, Well, OK for and against for and against. I want the last speaker to be Winnie Labour, and when he told the story of how she opposed the legislation, she thought about it. And then she ended up voting in favour. And there were two people who were swung the right way by. That one went the wrong way, little knowing. And so we stood in the lobby outside here [01:11:00] and we saw about at the numbers and 100 and 20 people were voting, and it got to 59 59 at which the colleagues with me were in some state of panic, and I realised that somebody should have voted by proxy when the Act MP should have voted by proxy for a colleague of hers who was overseas. So we got it back in, and that made the 60 then one person abstained. And that's how we got it. So 60 votes to 59 and one abstention. Um and then we had to go back in the chamber, not looking [01:11:30] as though we knew the result and sit there. Well, well, it was all read out. That was pretty extraordinary. Until that until that point, I would explain decriminalisation by in many ways. But particularly by saying that this is pretty similar to what was happening elsewhere in the world, which, of course, was not quite true. So the so the interviews, the interviews After 10 o'clock that night, I could actually say we were the first country in the world to do sex work, which we were, and we still remain the first country to do it extraordinary, because all the indicators [01:12:00] are that it works well. The recommendations around the world say that should be done, but it's a really tricky, difficult issue, and it touches all the negative buttons when it comes to politicians. That's only a lead in. We're going to be very brief because your questions are are very important in all this. The while that was going through, Helen Clark, um, called me in one day, which is often quite a nerving experience. Um, and she kept. But it was terrifying, actually. And she, [01:12:30] um But what she wanted to talk about was the fact that with the prostitution reform legislation, um, popping through the system, she was watching the debate around the world about the status on same sex relationships. And she wanted New Zealand to be leading rather than following in that debate. This been in 2001 and she said to me, Could you begin a bit of a conversation with the community about what kind of legislation people want and to see whether it is only marriage equality, [01:13:00] in which case, politically, that's going to be pretty tough to get through that parliament? Or is there the possibility of something else? And so we started instead of a website and had a quite a bit of one year consultation, I guess, and came up with the concept of civil unions, really based on the fact that legally it was the same as marriage. But of course, the difference is that marriage will still be barred for people in same sex relationships and also will be paralleled by another [01:13:30] piece of legislation, which I think probably in retrospect, was much more radical and was supported by many more people in Parliament, which was to essentially write out of all our laws, discrimination on the basis of relationships. So if you're married or in a civil union or in a de facto relationships, New Zealand law essentially treats you the same. And not many countries did that with 100 and 87 laws we had to amend, and the last one was found the day before we got [01:14:00] the bill out of the select committee, which was a island. Um, wardens Regulation. We said that the warden and and his or her spouse got free passage on the boat out there. So we had to take spouse to include civil union partner. They got, they got, they got down to some detail. But But yeah, so I. I chaired the select committee that dealt with civil unions. I'm going through the process which went through the process of running [01:14:30] the the the endless submitters 200. I think we had 250 come to the committee. We had five minutes, five minutes, five minutes, five minutes. Questions. We got through lots of people over many hours. I was accused of being biassed because I chaired the committee and so we had to deal with them that drama and anyway, eventually it came back to Parliament. We knew it was a bit easier than the prostitution reform, and it got through by a majority of 10 at the end of the day, and that was very much helped by [01:15:00] four national MPs who supported it. And that's been one of the stories all the way through. So we ended up we were the first country outside Europe to pass legislation that gave same sex couples access to law that in terms of the legal rights, was equal to marriage without being married. So that was the that was the next step along the way, and it wasn't perfect. But it was It was fascinating. My last point. There were six little points. Really, Um, [01:15:30] I mean this this conference and this event is about the activists of today and into the future, and I think there are some lessons in my experience. I mean, one is that we can actually change things pretty fast in this country when we think of the spectrum of what we're talking about and where we started and where we are now and obviously there are places to go to and I think we've actually fed off each other in that process and that's been really valuable. I mean, there's a story again from Ruth Dyson, who was Labour Party president in 1990 the dying days [01:16:00] of that Labour government and she talks about the arguments getting the human rights amendment tabled in Parliament and she threatened to resign as president if they didn't actually table it. I mean, there were big battles to even get it in the system because it was in the system. Catherine could then it up a bit like a baton, is actually passing from generation to generation and politician to politician and and it's really great to see to and Jan and others as the new the new generation in this place, so the [01:16:30] sustainable agenda, but keeping the movement going is the first point. The second thing is not to underestimate how important this stuff is. I know that Jan and To and Louisa were in Uganda last year earlier this year, this year and I was also there this year when I was working over in Africa and to go to a conference of human rights activists in Uganda and see a presentation about New Zealand's human rights laws and about our laws for sex workers make makes [01:17:00] you realise just the resonance of this house. It is relevant not just on these shores but way outside. Um, I think the third thing is the importance of stories as you go through this and the story which I told it so many times that eventually I heard Helen Clark telling it herself. And the the story I I developed was that, um and it's the bits of it are true. I just packaged it, I think when she was health minister in the 19 eighties and, um, and [01:17:30] and HIV was becoming an identified threat in New Zealand, um, there was there was an approach to say What can we as parliament do about these issues? And there were three things. It was decriminalising go sex, which was fr's work. It was also decriminalising needle exchanges which went through in 1989. I think we were one of the first in the world to do that, and the third one was to decriminalise sex work and it was too tough at the time. So we did what we could with the funding and then [01:18:00] later on it happened. And so it's really important to have stories to humanise all this. The fourth point, which I think we heard hints of earlier, is the interaction between community and politics. So this work happens with people in here. You've got the vision and the energy and the determination that the select committee system, the media and so on demand a much wider network of people to work as partners in that process. The fifth point is about the cross party work, that these are New Zealand [01:18:30] values driving us in this work, not actually not actually ideological party values. It's actually something about being New Zealanders and seeing the world in a certain way. And then the last one is that at the end of the day this means real things for real people on the ground. And there were a couple of moments relating to the prostitution reform legislation that was really kind of they they got it through to me. One was [01:19:00] that quite soon after the law went through. There was a sex worker murdered in my electorate in Christchurch. And after getting the wave of letters to the media, Senator, I was actually personally responsible for the murder, which is the kind of thing you sometimes get as a politician because the legislation has somehow made people behave differently. I went to her funeral and met her family, her family from the United States. And they come over to her funeral and they wanted to meet me to give me one message, which was to say that if she'd been murdered [01:19:30] in her home town, she'd have been treated by the police like dirt, and they wouldn't have been interested in actually finding out who killed her. And in Christchurch, the police and the sex workers were working together because of the different legislation. And within a week they'd actually found out the person who ended up being convicted of a murder. And that was, to me, a powerful story about what this legislation is all about. And the last one last story, I'll tell, was from my work I've fairly recently finished doing in South Africa, which, uh, for [01:20:00] the last nine months, I was funded and employed to work with sex workers to train them in lobbying members of Parliament to get trained in their laws. And the model that they wanted to use was a New Zealand model. So they had to learn a bit about New Zealand and and we went through a whole process of change and on the last day I was there, we had a we all sat around together in the agency I was working in, just to talk about about the changes over the nine months and and the confidence that the sex [01:20:30] workers are gained. And Joyce talked about the first day that she went to Parliament, when when I'd work taking a group of them to the parliament, to look around and to go to the cafe and to meet a few MPs and she said you took me to Parliament and and and that was great, she said. And then that same night I was standing in the street doing my work as a sex worker, and the police came along in the van and they said to me, Get in the van, we're going, we're going to take you away like they often did and she said to them, I went to parliament today. She said, I met MPs [01:21:00] I ate in our parliament and you can go away. I'm not going to go along with you. And she said, I walked off and the police drove off. Well, there's movement and there's change. So in all this it's at the end of the day about real people and their lives and their journeys, which I think is crucial. And I so admire my colleagues here from this institution from the parliamentary who've been part of this great story. And for those of you here and what is to come my very best wishes. [01:21:30] So now we have the star of the night Lewis O of and a national representative in netball and rugby, a member of parliament since 2008 [01:22:00] and one of us. Uh, firstly, can I thank for that? Uh, beautiful, Uh, welcome. And, uh, and the for the I'd like [01:22:30] to acknowledge my parliamentary colleagues, uh, in particular, um ja and Kevin Hague. Uh, but also in absentia, uh uh, uh Grant Robertson and Marion Street. Um, and I'd particularly like to, um acknowledge Bill and and the organisers tonight. Uh, but I do really want to stand here and pay tribute to the three, former members of parliament who, uh, have paved the way for, uh, me being a member of parliament [01:23:00] who is leading the marriage equality legislation. So, Fran, Catherine, Tom, I want to thank you for, uh, the wonderful platform that you've provided, uh, for where we are today. And I just wanted to, um, talk about the title of the Con Conference, which is on marriage. Equality. I thought it was about towards marriage equality. And, um, I do have to say that I I am here with some reservation. Uh, and the reservation for me is the fact that we're in the middle of a process. Um, I felt [01:23:30] really uncomfortable about, uh, sitting at a table with people who have had, uh, legislation passed in the house. And it's probably my sporting background Where, uh, when I played, uh, for the black ferns or for the silver ferns? Um, you don't celebrate, uh, until you actually win. Um, and so, uh, for me, um, that was the reservation. But when I think about tonight, actually, um, it isn't just about marriage equality. It's actually about, uh, debating, uh, one type, [01:24:00] uh, of, um, human being and one type of citizenship. And I think that is the bigger agenda, uh, that we're all engaged in now, not only in New Zealand, um, but actually globally, Uh, and particularly within the context of having having Boris Dietrich here. Uh, Jen and I were privileged to host Boris, uh, Who was the proposer of the first, uh, legislation in 1994 in the Netherlands that created civil union as a progression towards, uh, marriage [01:24:30] equality that they had in 2001. Uh, but he was very clear in his new role as the CEO or the representative from Human Rights Watch International that the the bigger conversation we have we're having and that he has is that of the 193 countries that, um, subscribe to the United Nations. 76 of those countries are still haven't gone through homosexual law reform. So, in fact, in those countries, being homosexual means that, uh, you are [01:25:00] a different type of human being and you're a different type of citizen. And I actually think that's the conversation, Uh, that we are engaged in, um, and one of the principles, um, of the legislation that I'm trying to promote with my colleagues is around, uh, do we have different types of citizenship in modern democratic society? So if democracy is the way that the world wants to govern, are there different types of citizenship? Which was one of the questions that I asked at the select committee. [01:25:30] I want to pick up on something that, um, uh, made as his critical point, which is about the cross party work. And I want to acknowledge that this, uh, this, uh, conversation that we're engaged in and particularly within our within our parliament is only possible because we have a cross party working group we have to who represents the National Party with his colleague, um, Nicky Kay and I want to acknowledge Nicky, uh, we have Kevin and Jan, Uh, we have myself with my, uh, fellow rainbow [01:26:00] or Labour Rainbow caucus members. Um, but we also have in our parliament, um, the minority parties and no, I'm not being offensive, but we have at the moment the Greens Act United future and the Maori Party that is standing solid. I mean, That's 20 votes from the first reading. Uh, And then, uh, the contribution from the Labour Party, 30 votes and the National Party, 30 votes at first reading mean, uh, that at first reading, we had a really solid mandate [01:26:30] for the conversation, and so we can't do anything. And I think you've displayed that tonight, Uh, that that cross party collaboration. So that's really fundamental. Um, when I, um when I've looked at, uh, this whole development of of, um I, I guess that one citizenship and it really is the theme for me. Um, we in the UK. They had homosexual law reform in 58 But when I look at the progression So it was in 74 that [01:27:00] young proposed the first, uh, homosexual law reform. Then it was Warren free. So it was in 74 Warren free. Uh, and, uh, I think it was 78 and 80. Um, so it took 12 years before the first brave member of parliament decided to talk about this, uh, before friends Bill was successful, and, um, part of that, uh I think, uh, community conversation meant that the country was pretty much split kind of reminds me of 81 in the Springbok tour. You [01:27:30] were either for homosexual law reform or you were against it. And I think some of the residual, uh, issues that we're dealing with today are actually about people who were either on the side of homosexual law reform or not. And so when I look at the biggest challenge that we have in the country at the moment, it is those people who are aged between 2030 who didn't support it and predominantly men. So 55 year old men, uh, have the biggest problem with homosexual law Reform now have the biggest problem with, uh, marriage [01:28:00] equality. But for the younger generation, um, and it's been typified by, um, referenda both at Otago and at Victoria University, 84% support. And so young New Zealanders, Um, I think because, uh, they live, um, with modern family, they live with, uh, TV programmes like, um, Grey's Anatomy, where you have characters who are in, uh, in relationships. Uh, they're either married or bringing [01:28:30] up Children. I mean, I think the normality of homosexuality, uh, for younger people, um, really means, uh, that this is, um, in new Zealand at the moment, Uh, a problem that older New Zealanders have, and people have said I shouldn't say that, or I shouldn't highlight it, but I think that's the reality of the conversations. Um, but what I do want to acknowledge and within this context is leadership, For example, um, of the Salvation Army and the leadership that I talk about is [01:29:00] I'm sure they're having debates, but they're having internal debates. They're not having public debates. It is the Anglican Church who are having debates, but they're having internal debates. Uh, and so I think that what we have at the moment are people like, um, you know, family first, who seems to be, uh, trying to, uh, run an agenda about, uh, this is so complicated that we can't progress. Uh, but the reality is, and I think what I've managed to do and we've managed to do really clearly from the [01:29:30] beginning is say that we want to balance freedom, uh, from discrimination with freedom of religion. And so from the beginning, we've had a really transparent agenda that we don't want to upset what currently happens. And in fact, I will, uh, fight for the rights of our religious leaders, uh, to believe what they believe, uh, and to marry who they want. So at the moment, they are authorised, not obliged. And it seems through the select committee process that we're going to have to do something to strengthen section 29 of the marriage act, which we will do. [01:30:00] Um, but, um, I think some of the other conversations, uh, in terms of future development really is, uh, around focusing on marriage as an institution, uh, where people love each other, they commit to each other, they want to create families and everybody. Every human being strives to find their life Partner doesn't matter who you are. But I think the language that we've used, uh, in the legislation, which is why it is so simple because marriage [01:30:30] is about two people, regardless of sex, sexual orientation and gender identity. And I think broadening that agenda to encompass um, our Trans, our intersex, uh, is an opportunity, I think, to probably, uh, if the legislation goes through, uh, highlights, um, that maybe in section 21 of our Human Rights Act, we should be looking at gender identity, and I want to acknowledge Georgina, who's not here because that was something that she wanted to do. And Crown Law said that [01:31:00] it was already in the legislation that under sex can't discriminate based on your sex, then included uh, um, gender identity. Now, whether or not that's going to be fit for purpose when we move to the future, that will be, uh, a later development. But, um, I just want to, um to thank the organisers, Uh, because the work that's happening in the community with the Marriage equality campaign, I want to acknowledge Margaret and the work that she's doing. Uh and and I think [01:31:30] having really positive, constructive conversations within our, uh, religious institutions, it's been, um, really, um I think, uh, mature for us as a country. Um, I've certainly tried to have conversations, uh, with our Pacific community especially, and I do want to acknowledge, um, yeah, the the issues. But the reality is, New Zealand is such a diverse society now, and we have people whose heritage identities because [01:32:00] of homosexual law reform not happening in Samoa not happening in Tonga. I think that we just have to understand that, um, you know it, it will take time to fully embrace, uh, the acceptance of one type of human being and one type of citizen. But we're certainly towards the path. And if I was to say, uh, what the big agenda around all of this is actually about, uh, one person, uh, is equal [01:32:30] to another person. It doesn't matter who you are that that's the big agenda. And so I've been pretty transparent about that. Um, I do want to acknowledge the work that Jen and to and I will continue to do, um, representing us, um, as IP U, uh, delegates to the next IP U, uh, forum in Quito. Because we, um I think now understand that New Zealand has a role to play on the international stage to continue to advance. [01:33:00] Uh, this particular issue, uh and, um, we will do that to the best of our ability. Uh, and so, uh, when we go to next year, we will put our, um, to the Human Rights Committee, won't we, Jan uh uh, an opportunity for us to look at how parliaments around the world, uh, you know, contribute to the decriminalisation or the homosexual law reform agenda. And so we commit to doing that. Um, but I just wanted to thank you all very [01:33:30] much for the opportunity to share, uh, the the stage with, um, particularly these three wonderful, uh, people. And, um, yeah, I just look forward to where, uh, this debate will take us in the future. And, uh, I thank you very much. So bell I'll hand over to you. Thank you. Thanks, Lisa. So we've got some time for [01:34:00] some questions or conversation? Some discussion, please try to be brief. Who's got something to say now? You will be recorded. Um, unless you protest. In which case I think it can be turned off. Uh uh. I'm taking some of, um the minutes that Fran has kindly offered to fill in the history. I'm not a historian, but [01:34:30] I'm taking some of Fran the minutes Fran has kindly offered to fill in the history. Uh, but first, I would like to say, uh, [01:35:00] in 18 93 the Criminal Code Act was passed based on the English Crimes Act of 18 85 by which Oscar Wilde was condemned, which condemned male homosexual acts, including those in private in 1908. The Crimes Act defined the penalties for sodomy and indecency between males. In 1941 [01:35:30] and 1954 amendments to the Crimes Act reduced the penalties for male homosexuality. Flogging was abolished in 1941 although I doubt that there were many for a long time before that. In 1959 the attorney General HGR Mason of the Second Labour government tried unsuccessfully to have the penalties for homosexual acts reduced in 1961 section 39 139 of the Crimes Act [01:36:00] criminalised act sex between women over the age of 21 and girls under the age of 16. Penalties for male were set at five years imprisonment for indecent assault and seven years for sodomy. In 1968 Arnold Nordmeyer of Labour presented a petition to parliament on behalf of the Homosexual Law Reform Society, signed by 75 prominent citizens asking for changes to the Crimes Act. And I'm proud to say my mother was a foundation member of the Homosexual [01:36:30] Law Society. Signatories included the Anglican bishops of Auckland and Wellington lawyers such as Shirley Smith, academics such as professors Lloyd Geering and James Ritchie, doctors including Diana Mason and clergy such as John Murray, who I saw this afternoon, and Monty Holcroft, former editor of the listener Walter Scott, former principal of Wellington Teachers College and educationist Jack Shell, who I hope is still with us. It was returned later without recommendation [01:37:00] by the chairman, Gordon Grieve, National, saying if the revolting practise were legal, the public would no longer think it was immoral, which I think is the message. Tonight, July 1974 Van Young introduced a Crimes Amendment bill with an age of consent of 21 uh Gerald Law. Labour moved an amendment making it punishable by two years jail to communicate to anyone under [01:37:30] 20 that homosexuality was normal. The bill and and amendment were defeated in passing 1976. Marilyn Waring was sprung as a lesbian by truth newspaper Um 1979. Warren Freer introduced a Crimes Amendment bill Decriminalising homosexual acts, but with an age of consent of 20 lesbian and gay activists opposed the bill because of the discriminatory age of consent, and it was defeated in [01:38:00] 1983 the Equality Bill was proposed by the Auckland Gay Task Force. Fran Wild agreed to introduce it as a private members Bill, but it was opposed by lesbians and radical gay gay men. That's what I wrote in the year 2000 because it would have criminalised some lesbian sex and it was dropped. And then, on July the 9th, 1986 the homosexual Law reform bill was passed by 49 votes to 44. I came out at that moment, [01:38:30] and a few moments later you may remember a preacher called from the gallery to Fran saying she would roast in hell or some such. And the speaker said, Have that man removed and Mr Muldoon said, Throw the out too. And I vowed, I renewed my vow that I had taken up when he first, uh, uh attacked Moyle that [01:39:00] I would dance on his grave. And I have since done some. I didn't bring this here to read it tonight. I brought it to take my niece and her partner, Emily and, uh, Eloise and Emily on a short lesbian gay history walk. And our first port of call was the Thistle Hotel, and we read on the stairs. Catherine Mansfield's [01:39:30] short story lives our, which is still worth reading. Other questions or comments. Mhm can Can this be taken around? Can I? That's that's a good idea, Tony. I thought it was worth [01:40:00] emphasising that, um in the civil union act that in that really, thanks to Tim, as far as I can see, we have something very unusual in New Zealand. Virtually every other country or state of the of the US or wherever which has passed such passed Such legislation has limited it to same sex couples with the result that when marriage equality comes, one presumes [01:40:30] that civil partnerships, for example, in the UK will wither on the vine. Uh, did you know, by the way, that the UK, whilst it recon whilst it recognises same sex civil unions from New Zealand, does not recognise opposite sex civil unions? That is to show us what a stupid lot those ponds can be. And as an ex pal Oh, I think it was also noticeable [01:41:00] that some of the opposition on the right to the to the, uh, civil union legislation specifically covered the fact that they didn't like that heterosexuals were going to be allowed to do it, thus allowing heterosexual something else apart from marriage. But But, of course what it does mean is that when we pass marriage equality, we will still have an institution called civil unions, which heterosexual [01:41:30] and same sex couples can can opt for. And this will give us, uh, thanks. Thanks to the careful wording of that act of far more choice than other countries will have. I'd like to thank um, all of the members of parliament who have worked on this positive, um, legislation [01:42:00] over the years. Um, but tonight, I'd particularly like to thank Catherine O'Regan. Um, during the 1992 and 93 I was a member of a group called Common Ground, and I believe Bill was also a member of that group. That's where I met Charles Chill as a young student. What we did was we formed an alliance, um, the disabled persons assembly who had not been, um, included in the previous human rights legislation. Um, people of different [01:42:30] sexual orientations I identify as bisexual. So I was there with that sort of grouping. Um, but people of a whole range of areas got together and were trying to do that behind the scenes letter IT and campaigning. And for many people, they'd never actually been in the room with the other groups. So you got lesbians and gay men working with people who had disabilities, people, disabilities, working with people who are HIV positive. It was, you know, a really great mix. And I think one [01:43:00] of the things about Lewis's legislation that is coming through as well is that there is a great range of different people from community groups who are working together on a common cause and that sharing within the community and the whole ripple effect, you know, we're all pebbles in the pool. We're all sending out a ripple to the communities. And I think that's one of the things that the previous legislation has enabled to happen. It remove some of the big rock, so those those ripples can go a lot further. So thank you all [01:43:30] Now, Good evening, everybody. Well, speaking as a pom and a 55 year old male, um, I feel a little bit challenged here, but, um, I would just like to thank all of you for the support that, um, I've seen over these last months. Um, my name is Nigel Studd, and I was the teacher up north. One thing I'd also echo from Louisa is the young people in this country. The students in the school that I taught [01:44:00] her were amazing. They faced incredible challenges in what they did, but they were prepared to stand up. There's a lot of adults out there that are not prepared to stand up. And I think what you're doing now is so vitally important because the teenage suicide rate in New Zealand is so high and what you're doing is you're giving an awful lot of people a lot of hope. So thank you all for doing that. [01:44:30] I. I wonder if members of the panel might want to intervene at this stage and make any responses to those things. Yeah, we'll have some more later on. I'd like to say something about what Nigel just said, because, um, when we did, um, gay law reform. Um, it was a long time ago now, but a lot of the, um, the one of the most powerful responses [01:45:00] to me was from young people who said, uh who were just terrified. I mean, now it's kind of it's difficult, I guess if you're at school, But in those days it was just a complete No no. And a lot of young people wrote to me and said, Thank you very much and and they still were scared. I don't think many of them actually did come out as, unlike the adult, the adults that did. But for them it was really, really important. One of them actually was Charles who was at school there [01:45:30] and got in touch with me. And that was when I first met him. But I know how important it was for them. And I guess it still is because the vulnerability of kids of that age is huge and there's so much else going on in their lives as well and to have to contend with, um, society pressures of that nature is just, um pretty must be pretty terrible. So, um yes, I endorse what you said and I saw that, too, when when gay law reform was going through. Actually, [01:46:00] anyone else on the panel at the stage, Um, the thing that drove me most at the beginning was the HIV a I DS issue, and I worried that it's going disappearing again. The the the The whole issue about HIV aids is disappearing when In fact, it's still a major problem. And I remember because I had such a lot of contact with individuals and [01:46:30] their stories and I'd see these wonderful young men dying of AIDS and such a waste such a waste. And one young man, I thought I thought I'd tell you his story. In fact, um, he started up the organisation mean, um, people who are living with people with AIDS, living with AIDS. It was quite a quite a difficult title. And he had AIDS, and he was not at all well and taking [01:47:00] rather large amounts of drugs to to cope with it, to deal with it. And he'd had enough. And he rang me one day and he said, Catherine, he said, Um, if I stop taking these pills, am I committing suicide? And I said, I thought, This is a bit of an ethics question and I just said, Look, let me think about it and I'll come back to you. So, um, I thought about [01:47:30] it for a while, and I decided when I rang him back, I said to him, Tim, it's not you're not committing suicide. All you're doing is letting nature take its course and two weeks later I was speaking at his funeral. Now I think we're inclined to forget today about those men who fought so hard with organisations with the needle exchange people remember was at, um [01:48:00] oh, the things the people that individuals, gay men and others who were drug addicts who were using had got had HIV aids from needles and needles using needles that were infected. And I think we don't see a lot about that today and I think there's still the issue is still out there. You could still get AIDS HIV AIDS and you don't want to get HIV aids. [01:48:30] And, um, I think there needs to be, um, a bit more of a discussion. I think about it amongst the gay community. I think that there's a bit of a gung ho attitude because the the cocktails are different now and you can actually live quite well, taking the drugs to, um to alleviate. But it it's still the same thing. The same issues today and I really would like to encourage those who are involved with in HIV [01:49:00] AIDS communities to speak up again because it needs to be heard. I think some of it back yet, or so, um, I can lose [01:49:30] a I have an anecdote which goes back to the time of the concept of law reform. And I think one of the areas that's been missed in the discussion tonight is an, uh when I was very much in the closet at the time was very much a camouflage close. Um, I was head of the court for the engineers at that time in my life. Um, and a part of the community that was extruded from the Homosexual Law Reform Act was first passed. [01:50:00] Happened to be a New Zealand defence force at the time. Um, and a year or two later, there was a reform which was intended to remove that exclusion. A good friend of mine, he had to be an art. So I have to get out. Um, but just was a very intelligent man and a good friend [01:50:30] of mine who was vehemently against any reform and his opinions and relation and his arguments against, uh, any reform that affected the New Zealand Defence Forces was very much stereotypical. And he had, I guess he felt he had at that time. Uh, an incident that played into his hands. Um, a soldier for which I was indirectly responsible for had, [01:51:00] um, had been raped, um, by a another male and, um, unfortunate circumstances. And, um, and that was being investigated at the time. Uh, this provided good fodder for for Garner's argument against, um, decriminalising homosexuality in the New Zealand defence Force. But that failed to look at the circumstances involved, because once the investigation [01:51:30] into the rape commenced, uh, shortly afterwards, a soldier was found hanging in his single living in quarters. He was a senior NCO. That soldier was gay. He had joined the Army because he was not accepted by his family. He joined the Army to try and become the man that society expected of him. I think perhaps possibly part of my emotion, [01:52:00] uh, reason for being in the army at the same time, he handled it quite differently. Uh, a a situation arose where he found he couldn't resist the temptation. He committed an act for which he was appalled to the extent where he took his life. Subsequently, that argument was used to buy gas and a submission, um, here to parliament to justify not reforming, um, the act, the Homosexual [01:52:30] Law Reform Act. Uh, as it affects affected then the New Zealand Defence Force. I'm proud to say that I was probably one of the few who stood up at that point in time and said that that was a reason why the reform should go through. Had the had there been no criminalization, both soldiers, both incidents were both tragedies would have been avoided. Uh, I like to think perhaps I influenced [01:53:00] a few opinions, uh, within my community. But I think even though I didn't identify much as I do now, at that point, the reality is that those sorts of thinking and bear in mind Gus wasn't is, I assume, still an intelligent man. But these these intelligent people still think dumb because their minds are set in [01:53:30] a kind of a doctrinal time war. And I guess what I'm hoping for out of this sort of community, uh, gathering and this forward thinking is that we start to look at these issues of human rights, not gay or trans or any other rights. But we look at these issues of human rights in a global form, and we shouldn't be arguing for them. My rights are extant. I'm a human. What is not right is for [01:54:00] anybody to take those rights away from me or legislate to prevent me having those rights. That is what we must work against at every level and in every occasion. Thank you. Thanks. Who's next? Warren, Just before I build my amendment, [01:54:30] just before my occasions Amendment was moved, Um, Warren Cooper, who was the then the Defence minister? Uh, said that there would be no more discrimination in the army in the defence forces. And, um so I was I was delighted about that. The police were not quite so forthcoming doing well. I think so. We'll have one or two last speakers if there are anyone do. [01:55:00] Hm? I just want to say something about, um, Lewis, Um, Bill now and I want to talk about the politics of what's going on because I'm hearing, you know, the numbers might be there in Parliament, which is great. But Lewis is in a really difficult situation in South Auckland as I see it, where she's being attacked constantly. And that's what I'm seeing on the news. And, um, she just told me another little story earlier. No, seriously. [01:55:30] So I know I don't know where you all come from, but she needs some support politically. Um, I was lucky because I was in a really liberal electorate. Wellington Central can't get a more liberal electorate than Wellington Central, full of young, educated people. And we were all, you know, proud liberal. Um, and I think Lewis is in a completely different situation, and she's being attacked by her own voters, her own people who should be actually supporting her, and they're not. So I'm [01:56:00] sorry, you might disagree, but that's how I reading the news. That's what I'm That's what I'm seeing these kind of stories coming. So I really If you are from Auckland or, you know, people up there, can you get them to kind of turn out for her and and just be voices there at the times when these other demos are going on? I. I don't want fights in the street. Of course we had enough of that. But you know, there needs to be some public support. Um, and maybe you're getting it in Auckland and, you know, maybe it is happening, but I think it's really important [01:56:30] politically that that people get that, Um because she's doing the right thing and that should be acknowledged, Um, and not just be a big political black mark for her with her voters. Um, the other thing I just want to say is that, um it's really good that you guys went to, um, Uganda. Uganda? Yeah, but actually close to home, we've got real issues around the Pacific, which is our neighbourhood, and I [01:57:00] chair a little human rights group that operates in the Pacific and our biggest issues. We do a lot of work with governments getting advising them on law. We do also training of community workers and all sorts of things. But the two biggest issues are women's rights. This is in the Pacific and HIV AIDS rights of HIV aids people. They are huge, huge issues in the Pacific. And so I think it's really important that the MP S here, please. Um you know, speak up [01:57:30] about that too, because that is an area we can influence more. And we can influence that through our membership of, you know, the Pacific Forum and the Pacific, or the political organisations and the closer relationship we have with those governments, Uh, and also our own government here, in terms of the development of assistance work. And you all know what's happened there. So sorry about this. But this is a shameless pitch for more activism, actually, in this area of human [01:58:00] rights, not just in New Zealand but also in our own neighbourhood, which I regard as the Pacific. So sorry, but I just wanted to do that as an ad, kind of an add. So we're we're about to wind up. Um, I do want to talk about the conference, which is is going on tomorrow. I think there's a brochure which is to be handed out as you go. Um, and, uh, that [01:58:30] conference will go on all weekend. It's a slightly different focus. Tonight we've been talking about what happens in Parliament mostly, and to some extent, the connection between Parliament and the community and the focus will be the other way around for the next two days. What the community can do and to some extent, how that interacts with Parliament. So a slightly different focus, Uh, and an interesting full programme ahead. [01:59:00] Take the brochure as you go, and we'll see you at some ungodly hour tomorrow morning. Nine o'clock. Is it? Uh, now, is there anything else that you guys would like to say? Just as a last word? Certainly. Yeah. I wanted to start off by just, um, recognising the work that all of you are doing in this campaign. And I think what this evening has done [01:59:30] is actually to bring out those historic strands really well of what's happened through the story. And I was really excited by Jem's sort of references of other challenges that lie ahead. So I think that's really crucial. And I guess the other thing is to recognise although we're in this rather over impressive building and there's been a big focus on Parliament and on MPs here that essentially MPs are people who come from community and go back to community in one way [02:00:00] or another. And we're just all really lucky to have had an opportunity in our lives to be in this place, which is an extraordinary privilege. And I think within that group we are even luckier to have been around at a time when really good things are happening and to be in a place where we can actually be part of the process of making them happen. So any of that that can be shared in terms of that story and about how people in politics work with people outside politics to make things happen is something which is so key to [02:00:30] our democracy and our future, whatever the issues you're involved in. So that for me has been the big, big reminder of tonight. So thank you very much for being here. You have met tonight in the one room of the Parliament, where, in actual fact, the submissions were heard for homosexual law reform. The select committee tables were set up in this room, this very room. So it seems totally appropriate [02:01:00] that this meeting and your conference begin in this hall today. Um, I, I just want to say that, um uh, there are some challenges for me specifically in South Auckland. Um, I did have two of my ministers come and see me, and they represented 22 ministers in South Auckland. But it was quite interesting because we got into a discussion [02:01:30] about our young people and about, uh, sexual self determination and about creating environments where our young people know that they're loved and their values. And actually, they have the space to be who they are. And it was really interesting because one of them said to me, Are you telling me how to minister? And that was in the context of him coming to my electorate office and telling me, uh, what I should be doing and how to be an MP. Yeah, but it was It was quite interesting because, um, I think [02:02:00] what I've tried to do all along is to create these spaces to talk. And I think for, uh, for me in this role, um, my passion and drive is our young people. I want to acknowledge you, uh, Mr, for the principled stance that you took in supporting the young people at your school. Um, I think that you showed a lot of courage, but more than that, I think at the heart of what you did was putting our Children [02:02:30] at the centre of any work that we do. And so what drives me? I think what drives Kevin Jan A lot of us who are in here, uh, is the legacy that we want to create for the next generation of New Zealander. And so, um, I'm fine about, uh, people in my electorate challenging me. Um, I do, but in saying in saying that I have, um I was at the markets on Saturday. [02:03:00] I have a lot of Pacific people come to me. Not publicly, but they'll see me at the market, and they'll say, You know, you're being so brave. We support you. Well done. We love our we love our They won't do it collectively or publicly. But I think that there is a misconception that the Pacific community do not support this bill. And so, um, I know, for example, that I have a youth, uh, network. [02:03:30] And they are going to have a forum very early in the new year because the leaders who work with our young people realise that this is such a big issue. And so we are doing a lot of work in the community. But I do want to thank you, and I and I don't feel like I'm isolated, but I also don't feel like I'm brave. I mean I mean, no. What did you feel like? You were brave. No, we did. We do what we do exactly because it was the right thing to do. And I just think, um, that I'm It's all like this timing, all of it is [02:04:00] about timing. But I do want to thank all of you here because we I'm I've always been clear right from the beginning that we can only do this together, that no one person is going to achieve it. And I think I want to pick up on something. Tim said that we've actually had a continual campaign. These aren't discrete, separate campaigns. Actually, they've all overlapped, and, um, we're all working together and we will get where we want to go. I've got no doubt about it, but it's how we get there and then how we engage with our communities to make [02:04:30] sure And for me, it, um, in my electorate, it's my Indian communities, my Asian communities, my Pacific communities. Because when this goes through, there's still a lot, a lot of work to be done to make sure that people understand that, uh, we're not trying trying to infringe on their rights, but actually living in a modern New Zealand society, we all have to respect one another, understand one another be tolerant to be able to live together. And so that's kind of the other agenda that I have going forward is that we continue these conversations [02:05:00] and it doesn't just end, uh, when the bill goes through. So you last comments, I'm usually not lost for words. Um, thank you for organising this bill. Actually. What? It's I think the I just want to, um, echo what's been said just a few minutes ago. I think it would be worthwhile exploring further at some stage How much has been [02:05:30] done in New Zealand by cross-party, um, work. And I just muttered earlier to to hear, um, to Catherine that we did a whole lot of stuff for women. Cross party in this parliament, uh, rape law reform. All of that stuff was done by us working together. And we had male ministers of justice who for who were either for or against or couldn't or couldn't understand it, you know, in different parties. And we gradually got these things by all the the legislation [02:06:00] about violence and all that sort of thing, and that's been driven by the women actually cross party. And it's been really important work. Um that's happened and you know there's some. There are some good stories. Tim is right that we need to keep telling. I didn't tell you any stories tonight because there's too many about gay law reform. But, you know, there's some great stories, and at a time when sometimes I must say now I'm not here, I look back and I think, How can people behave in the house the way they do? I mean, [02:06:30] you wouldn't want your kindergarten kids behaving in that way, actually. But there's some great things that happen here, too. And we need to celebrate the good things that happen in Parliament. Not just look at the ridiculous behaviour at question time and think that's how it is and conscious votes do bring. Uh, they shouldn't be conscience votes. In my opinion. Good on you greens. I won't vote for you, but I have to say good on you. And I'm a swinging voter, [02:07:00] too. But actually, you know, like having sex and alcohol and religion and those things as conscience votes is nuts. They are the big issues central to our human existence, not alcohol, perhaps, although for many people it is, but sex certainly is. And yet, you know, they kind of Oh, it doesn't really matter about them. They the issues actually so well done for having policies. That's great. Anyway, thank you all for coming tonight. [02:07:30] Did you ever denounce them? Just a couple of announcements. Uh, tomorrow we start, um, bright and early at the Wellington Community Law Centre for the workshops, Uh, at level 2 84 Willis Street. So, uh, hopefully you'll find that these brochures outside for more information. And, uh, for those that like to tweet, our hashtag is NZMEC. So New Zealand Marriage Equality Conference for [02:08:00] you to remember. Thank you all very much for coming along tonight. Thank you, uh, for participating. And we hope to see you all again soon. Cheers. Yeah.

IRN: 682
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/marriage_equality_conference_ian_mckellen.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004213
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089507
TITLE: Ian McKellen - Marriage Equality Conference
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ian McKellen
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: Aotearoa New Zealand; Ian McKellen; Legislative Council Chamber; Marriage Equality Campaign (Wellington); Marriage Equality Conference (2012); Parliament buildings; United Kingdom; Wellington; marriage; marriage equality
DATE: 30 November 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Legislative Council Chamber, Parliament buildings, Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. This is Ian McKellen and I'm in London. Ever since New Zealand gave women the vote before any other country in the world, the rest of the world has looked in New Zealand for social advance. And here we are again, and this time of the exciting prospect of the possibility of people of the same gender being able to get married and join the rest of the population. It will be a popular move. I know. And I'm glad that [00:00:30] all major political parties have embraced it. Supported? I know, too, by the younger generation who say things a lot more clearly than people of my age. Anyway, my support is with you. And And I hope that by the time I get back to middle Earth, um, I might even be able to get married. Good luck.

IRN: 681
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/marriage_equality_conference_preview.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004078
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089372
TITLE: Rawa Karetai previews the Marriage Equality Conference
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Rawa Karetai
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Christchurch; Civil Union Act (2004); Dunedin; Germany; Hamilton; LegaliseLove; LegaliseLove (Wellington); Legislative Council Chamber; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Marriage Equality Campaign (Wellington); Marriage Equality Conference (2012); Parliament buildings; Rawa Karetai; The Queer Avengers (Wellington); United Kingdom; Wellington; activism; adoption; civil unions; community; discrimination; diversity; education; homophobia; human rights; media; politics; queer; transphobia
DATE: 30 November 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Legislative Council Chamber, Parliament buildings, Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Conference Chair Rawa Karetai previews the upcoming Marriage Equality Conference, held in Wellington 30 November - 2 December 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So my name is and I'm the conference chair for the Marriage Equality Conference. Um, we're about to launch into conference tonight, which we have a Have a look and look into the history from 1986 to the present date. Um, of homophobia, law reform, uh, human rights, Uh, the civil union. And currently we're talking about marriage equality. The conference is supposed to be as inclusive as possible. Um, we've made it free for everybody to turn up. We've tried to help [00:00:30] everybody who can to turn up who wants to turn up. And, um, we hope to have such an amazing conference full of discussion and looking forward into the future of other campaigns such as adoption, anti homophobia campaigns and making sure we get marriage equality for everybody. What kind of sessions have you got coming up? Uh, we've got human rights. Um, discussion happening on Saturday. We've got how to lobby MP S. How to make sure that, uh, groups and, um, people [00:01:00] come together and make sure that they organised able to do stuff and lobby MP S. Um, make sure that they eliminate, uh, organisational risk. Uh, And, um, how to deal with people like conflict and, um, fighting and all that stuff which naturally occurs when you're putting a few few people in a room. But yeah, hopefully we'll have. We'll be encouraging and inspiring people to go back home to wherever they come from. We've got people in here from Germany, Sydney, [00:01:30] um, and even the UK. So that's pretty exciting. And we're hoping that they'll be able to go home and help their campaigns out as well. But we've got people from Christchurch, Auckland, Hamilton and Dunedin, so hopefully that will be exciting for them as well. What has it been like to organise? It's been great fun, actually. The amount of people that want to help, especially uh, a minority group like, um, queer people, Um, the people who just want to get on board and just do stuff for marriage equality and make sure that we're [00:02:00] all acceptance. Uh, you know, the discourse out there in the community is we have no issue with this. Why? Why have have a problem at all, and this is almost a non issue. Let's just get it through Parliament and make sure that we are an accepting society in New Zealand. So submissions to the select committee have closed another hearing. Oral submissions. How has the campaign gone so far? Pretty good. It's a very positive campaign. We don't want it to be a negative campaign. We want it to be a celebration of sorts. [00:02:30] Um, this is a chance for us to have our say, and it's a chance for us to finally get married. Um, the Civil Union bill was a concession of some sorts for a lot of people, and what they really wanted was to get married, and this is an extra step to that. So, uh, the young people, especially, are very excited about the potential of getting married in the future. And, um, I'm pretty certain that we'll get it. Um, if it doesn't happen, we'll probably wait for another 10 years. Then I'm going to be 40 by that stage. But, you know, [00:03:00] um, marriage is on the cards, and I'm looking forward to the day that I say I do. And it's been so worth it. What do you want people to come away from this conference with, basically, uh, acceptance of all people and inspired to do stuff that they you know, some people just don't know what to do. So if they can be inspired to go back to their communities and help out, um, that will be you know, even if it's just one person, that will be enough for me. Um, but I hope to inspire, you know, at least 200 people, if not more, to go out there and, um, be [00:03:30] advocates for, um, Queer rights. Is this the first time that you've kind of done a political campaign? No, not at all. No, it's the first time I've done queer, um, being a queer advocate. But it's not the first time I've done something like this. I was involved in student politics quite heavily, um, student president for two years. And, um, I've done amazing things through that. And now it's my time to dive into the queer movement. Is there a difference between doing something in, say, general politics and [00:04:00] then in queer politics? No, no, not at all. I mean, it's, um, interesting that you still have to be a little bit cautious of the words that you choose. Um, but in all, we're all wanting the same thing. It's just how do you get there and you get that in any discourse. Um, when it comes to campaigning, you all have a common targeted view. Uh, it's just whether or not you agree on how to get there. Yeah, and that's the same. Wherever you go, it's It's the fun of the challenge.

IRN: 700
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/a_thousand_toilet_ladies.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004077
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089371
TITLE: A Thousand Toilet Ladies by Wai Ho
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VOICES: Wai Ho
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: A Thousand Toilet Ladies; Aotearoa New Zealand; China; Wai Ho; Wellington; butch; cooking; ethnicity; family; food; friends; gender identity; growing up; identity; labels; parents; racism; school; sexuality; stereotypes; teaching; transcript online; violence; youth
DATE: 1 December 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Wai Ho reads A Thousand Toilet Ladies.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: 1000 toilet ladies by. Excuse me, These are the women's toilets. The woman uses that too loud tone white people use when they're talking to someone coloured as if the darker your skin is the worse you're hearing. A part of me wants to say Solly, Solly, I know English and push past her instead, I say, Yeah, I know. The woman takes another look at this prepubescent Chinese boy incorrectly [00:00:30] in the woman's loses and sees a masculine looking Chinese girl in her mid teens and said, 00, I'm so sorry. She flusters breaking my gaze. It's OK, I assure her. I have this interaction on a semi regular basis. The toilet door with a blobby stick person wearing a cape is actually a gauntlet through which I'm challenged every few weeks. Miriam, why do you like those Samoan boys? Yeah, they are so naughty and not good at school. [00:01:00] Mum and tones folding the washing and yelling to the kitchen from the lounge where my sister is, and you should concentrate on study, not have boyfriend. You are too young. I roll my eyes at my sister just before she huffs out of the kitchen. Not bothering to respond to one of my mother's many commentaries on life. Mom, you can't say those kinds of things. They're just racist stereotypes. You know, all the stuff that gets said about Chinese people, that we're triads and people smugglers. We cats and dogs all [00:01:30] drive BMW, S and are good at maths and table tennis, I say, sitting down a cup of Earl Grey next to her neat piles of washing and Miriam's 16 mum plenty old enough Why you are good at maths and we like to play table tennis on Sundays and why can eat chicken and baby lambs but not dog. Silly dog is like steak Mam pauses, blowing on her teeth. You'll know Hannah when we ate food that was too hot. Your [00:02:00] papa would blow air in our mouth to cool it down. She looks thoughtful, then jumps almost without pause to the previous topic. No. 16, too young for a boyfriend must study harder. Hannah, you'll know when you marry. You must marry a white man. She looks at me pointedly. One arm still within an outturn cardigan, Miriam pulls a quizzical face at me. She's entered the conversational hub in the lounge and is ignoring Mum, signalled by white [00:02:30] earphones in her ears. I know Mum doesn't notice, but I can see those earphones aren't attached to anything. It's a tactic that works, so maybe I should try it and you, she says, waving a rumpled pair of pants at my brother who's behind Mum's clothes towers in the hope that she won't see him. You'll stop. Always play a video game. That's why you are so stupid. Never study. You gotta study. But I've nearly got 10,000 complaints. My brother still playing the tinny video game music, joining [00:03:00] his protest. No need 10,000. What for? Only silly monkeys jumping on crocodile. Go study now, she orders pulling the game from my brother and sitting on it. Ah, mom, you killed me! Yells Caleb, waving his arms. He glares at her before stalking out the sad mechanical death tune from under my mum's bum of a monkey being eaten by a crocodile affirms his remark. Yes, the white man is better than the Chinese. The [00:03:30] Chinese is only think about money, and the white man does not hit their wives, Mum concludes, looking satisfied by the way she's snapping a pillowcase flat case has conform nicely to her view of how the world should be. Yells my sister and stomps out. I think I should suggest earplugs to her rather than earphones. Mom, I grown. You've been watching too many ROM comms. White men hit their wives too. They're such chronic in this country with an all ethnicities. And I told [00:04:00] you anyway, I'm not getting married. I like girls. Hm? She grunts. I don't understand you. All my Children are like foreigner. I'm sitting at a small Formica table with faded geometric shapes that look like they're hiding from me. I'm with Auntie Ida, who isn't really our auntie. She's a family friend of our parents, and we've always grown up calling all our parents friends Auntie and uncle So and so I'm helping her peel the mountain of potatoes and that will be turned into the carb component [00:04:30] of the quintessential roast. You know, when we first came here from Penang in the seventies, we didn't know what to expect. I thought about hills and sheep and old English buildings like Cambridge or Oxford. I didn't know what to think. When we got here, we were so shocked when all the shops just closed at five o'clock, she says, quartering a large Cora. And they didn't even open on the weekend. What were we meant to eat late at night? No shops open, [00:05:00] no night markets and food stalls. We came here because we think more civilised and progressive. But then we see all the bland, colourless food and think, Oh dear, we must have got on OK with food, Auntie Ida, I say, dangling my legs in the plastic store. And I mean now you have a takeaway shop that sells roast meals. Yes, yes, yes, Auntie, Ida says, chuckling. First we have Chinese takeaway shop because we think our food is more tasty and the Kiwi will like [00:05:30] much more than yellow and brown food. But now we have roast shop because four item on menu much easier than 75 dish. Ha ha ha! Actually, Ross is very good. I can see why Kiwi, like as kids, are bunched close to each other around the dining table. Dad is pacing, glowing as he reads our report cards. It's like an unhappy family dinner, but without the dinner, Mum is perched on a stool on the other end of the table on a muttering monologue [00:06:00] about how Kiwi teachers are too nice. And they say a child's work is good even when it's not. How are they to improve? If the teacher will not even tell them their work is bad and they have to do better, she complains to no one in particular. Miriam looks like she's imitating those painted people who busk on Cuba Street pretending to be statues. And then they move suddenly and scare you. Well, they scare little kids, not me. Caleb is making tiny sculptures, which look like pointy little [00:06:30] curly buildings out of a blob of blue tack. I tried to stick to one of the ends of his dreadlocks without him knowing he's actually trying to ignore Dad, but I can see it's not working. He squashes his whole city of buildings with a clenched fist. Every time Dad says something about him, I'm trying to transport myself somewhere else. I fail, so I switch to imagining dark, angry cartoon clouds with lightning strikes over dad's head, then comic symbols and a thought bubble for the swear words. He's probably thinking upon reading my brother's [00:07:00] report card I offered to change the grades for Caleb, using those scratch on letters you can get from the stationary shop adopted many of my friends' school certificate results to save them from the hidings that have got an otherwise works. A treat no one suspects, but then my brother thinks it's silly that we're expected to get all A's when bees are fine. I think so, too. But then I did get all A's. We came here to give you a better life, a better chance, more opportunities, yells my dad, [00:07:30] waving the report card in my brother's face. And what do you do? I'm about to point out that what my dad has just asked is a rhetorical question, one that isn't really meant to be answered but is stated to make a point. We learned that in English last week, but then I think now is probably not the best time. You waste your time skating and drawing pictures, pictures. Dad pauses and stomps around in a semi circle a few times, then stops planting himself over. My brother, you must study hard slap, [00:08:00] get good grades so you can get into university and get a good job slap. The Kiwi can waste their time. Slap draw pictures slap play at each other's houses, Slap party all weekend slap. You cannot slap, slap, slap. We are Chinese. We must work harder than them to get the same opportunities, Dad yells, punctuating each sentence on my brother's head. Caleb holds himself stiffly, trying to ignore the slaps, then shudders like a dog's pouch shakes when you lightly [00:08:30] tickle just one of its heads. He forcefully stands his chair, toppling backwards and shoves Dad away from us. The blinds make an agitated metallic declaration. As dad flounders onto them, the room inhales into itself and freezes the colours ping off each other, and the straight lines seem almost too sharp, cutting at my eyes, tense and alert, almost anticipating the reign of rage that were unleashed from Dad and my brother's physical deviance. [00:09:00] Growth spurts must happen Suddenly, as Caleb is now the same height as dad, I can see my brother's fists clenched as tightly as the words that spit out his mouth. I don't even want to go to university. That's what you've always wanted, and we're not even really Chinese. We were born here, unlike you, Miriam is curled into herself like a shell sitting on the edge of a table, sobbing softly. I put my arm around her, shielding her from the prickliness of dad's angry hands. [00:09:30] My brother storms out a vibrating ball of barely controlled fury. Words thump noisily through my arteries past my ears and choke making lamps in my throat. It's different now, Dad. We don't just have to make money. We can choose to do other stuff. You're suffocating us with your Chinese rules. I tell the floor. You say you came here to give us opportunities, but you just want to make us do whatever you want. I finish quietly, not meeting his confused [00:10:00] eyes, and you can't hit kids in New Zealand anymore. It's illegal, shoots my sister quickly as she hunches back into herself like a poked snail. The blinds are playing a discordant harmony with the furious hum of thick silence. Dad looks strangely about to implode and at the same time deflated like a saggy, wrinkly balloon. Mum is pinched and quiet. The blinds finish their crude song, and I take my sister's quill hand, slowly shuffling [00:10:30] her out of the room with me. My parents are sending and starts up and follows us out. No respect for elders learning bad habits from the Kiwi Children. No discipline teachers should be allowed to hit pupils. To relax. Must follow Chinese tradition. Nothing we all haven't heard so many times before. I pull back the hood of my hoodie as I step inside to a spicy, fragrant warmth pad, Thai [00:11:00] or fox. So many choices. I see the lady from the toilets. She's two people ahead of me at the counter. But why does she have to be here? Usually, only Asians come here. The hot butch girl. The whole reason I always come to this place, even though it's further from the bus stop, saunter out from the kitchen and takes over from the guy at the counter. She has this cute kind of bowl cut, but in an edgy, ironic way. And she's real big and solid, strong, looking like she could wrestle beers If people wrestle [00:11:30] beers. This time, I really am going to talk to her, not just order my meal. The toilet lady is taking ages. Does this dish have MS G? She enunciates slowly and loudly while gesturing wildly at a shiny picture on the menu. No MS G, says Hot Butch girl, cutting the words with her dismissive smirk. You know, you really should have these menus in English toilet Lady says, arching an eyebrow condescendingly. [00:12:00] After all, you are here in New Zealand. The English menu is on the other side, Hot Butch Girl says, taking the menu from her and turning over and seeing as we are in a in New Zealand, hot butch girl continues firmly holding toilet ladies. No longer a gay. Exactly how fluent is your Maori? A number of things happen quickly. The older guy bustles out the front rapid fires, a bunch of words and arm waves at Hot Butch girl scolding her, who then chastened stalks [00:12:30] into the kitchen. And all the while toilet lady is doing huffing and blowing and waving her arms, too. Not like older shop Guy was, but kind of like. If you're doing a very gentle and timid chicken dance, toilet lady orders a beef fox, it suddenly feels too warm as I try not to flinch. Talking to older shop guy, he looks all too much like my dad when Dad is mad at us barbed eyes and unpredictable hands. I order a be bang from the older shop guy, double [00:13:00] checking as I always do that there won't be any coriander in it. Our meals arrive quickly as usual, steaming happily in their colourful plastic bowls. I eye toilet lady over my food, and I notice that she looks much older than I thought she was. I feel a millisecond of compassion for her before I recall the toilet incident and how rude she was to Hot Butch Girl. Toilet lady is looking around for the soy sauce that is usually on the table, along with the chilies and other condiments, and not finding what she's after. [00:13:30] Eyes up my bottle, I take a deep breath on my insides, recalling that I've been trying to be nicer to old people. Grudgingly, I reach over and give her mine. Oh, thank you, she says, her smile crinkling her eye corners. What a polite young man, she tells the soy sauce being poured into her broth and glaring in the direction of the kitchen toilet. Lady doesn't recognise me from earlier. She probably thinks all Asians look the same. I suppose it's kind of OK in a way [00:14:00] I know my mom thinks lots of white people all look the same, and she often can't really tell them apart. Or maybe it's an old person thing. Maybe they just stop noticing stuff. I've finished my BB and I started reading when a voice says to me, Why don't you like coriander? It's hot, But girl, I put down my book, but it catches the spoon sticking out of my empty bowl, which then catapults out and knocks over the chilli sauce. I flounder around, setting things back up. While she watches and tries not to laugh. [00:14:30] I decide to pretend that we slapstick incident just didn't happen. I've never liked it, makes me gag. My dad and my brother can't eat it, either. I mean, I wish I liked it. People seem to like it. I realise I'm rambling, so I stop. It's nerve wracking, trying to think of cool things to say. I can't think of anything. What are you reading? She asks, looking from a chilli sauce to my book Sandman. I'm up to Book three and they are 10, I think. Although I think Neil Guy is working on a prequel, she picks it up [00:15:00] looking at the pictures. People call them comics because they have pictures, but they're actually graphic novels. I take the opportunity to look at her white plastic, smiling cross bones dangle from her ears, and I like how her t-shirt stretches across her shoulders. Hey, I liked what you said to the old lady. I wish I could think of witty things to say on the spot. My ears go hot as I feel back to all the times I wish I had said something to Dad or done something rather than letting my brother or sister take the heat or slaps. [00:15:30] Yeah, you get a bit of that working here, she says as her eyes flick the toilet lady's empty seat. There is an awkward pause between us. Uh, I better get back to work, she says, glancing over at the kitchen before Uncle has another go at me. Oh yeah, choice. Uh, hey, I could lend you the first Sandman comic if you wanted to read them. They're really cool. She stops and looks at me for a few seconds longer than people usually look at other people. She makes it hard for thoughts [00:16:00] to get to my brain. Sure, she smiles. Bring it Next time. I usually finish at nine. If you wanted to get a bubble tea somewhere after. Oh, yeah, cool. That would be awesome. And tell the apron knot on the back of her waist. As she walks away, she waves over her shoulder without turning around. I place my book carefully, back into my bag and head out into the raucous weather. The door tinkles shut behind me. People are huddled like shuffling [00:16:30] rocks, waiting for the bus. A giant grin is plastered over my face even as the wind tries to take my hood off. I don't even care if 1000 toilet ladies think I'm a boy.

IRN: 698
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/butch_femme_queer_feminist_elders.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004076
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089370
TITLE: Butch Femme Queer Feminist Elders
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Marewa Glover; Wai Ho
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; 2010s; Adrienne Rich; Auckland; Auckland Trades Hall; BDSM; Butch Femme Queer Feminist Elders (2012); Butch-Femme; Christchurch; In vitro fertilisation (IVF); Joan Nestle; Leslie Feinberg; Marewa Glover; Minnie Bruce Pratt; Māori; Pound nightclub; The Persistent desire: a femme-butch reader; United States of America; Wai Ho; Wellington; abuse; boundaries; butch; children; closeted; coming out; community; diversity; elders; family; feminism; femme; finances; herstory; heterosexual privilege; high femme; history; homosexual law reform; identity; intergenerational; internet; internet dating; invisibility; lesbian; mental health; older age; parenting; passion; politics; queer; sexual abuse; takatāpui; tattoo; teaching; transgender; transition; travel; violence; women; youth
DATE: 24 November 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland Trades Hall, 147 Great North Road, Grey Lynn, Auckland
CONTEXT: Audio from the Butch Femme Queer Feminist Elders panel discussion, held at Auckland Trades Hall in Grey Lynn on 24 November 2012. Special thanks to the panel for allowing their stories to be recorded and shared online.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh um I'd like to pay our respects to and their Children for even more. Our respects also to and who lands we meet on, um, and a big warm welcome to all our ancestors here with us today who enable us to be here, um, acknowledgements to all of you who have come from all different parts of everywhere and for yeah, coming to, um, particularly kind of share share stories, [00:00:30] um, and experiences. And also, I guess, to celebrate and heal. So thank you very much. Um, so welcome. Um, this is a public talk. That's a part of a weekend we've been holding, um, talking. Well, people who identify as or book of switch, um, being and feminist. Um, and this is the first time we're kind of aware of this happening in New Zealand. Um, so that's really kind of like, exciting. Historically, I kind of just want to acknowledge [00:01:00] that, um, and I also feel kind of in context. We don't really have much intergenerational contact. Um, so I think this is just a really amazing experience to actually. Well, for me, anyway, to come and hear from my elders. Um, and the other thing I was gonna say on the poster where we did the advertising. Does anyone know who that couple was? That's the posters, and the picture is just actually just up here. Um, [00:01:30] that's Lesley Fey and many Bruce Pratt who are two really amazing butin elders from America. Um, but I kind of feel like in New Zealand, we're doing this stuff without necessarily having the books or the community or the culture to place us here. Um and so these are my elders that I found from overseas, but I'm really excited to be talking to elders that are from here and have been doing this stuff for a while. Um, so we can figure out how to locate ourselves right here. Um and I'm really hoping this is the beginning of more [00:02:00] community and more connection and with this stuff, so I just kinda wanna thank you all for coming and being a part of it. Um uh, thank you very much for the invitation. I It took me a little while to sort of go. What? [00:02:30] Uh, I would like to acknowledge some of our other elders in the room. I haven't seen you for a while. Well, I saw you last week. Um, so I think you wanted me to talk for, like, 10 minutes. And, um, I'll try and do that. And I haven't really planned anything. Um, I might start with a poem and and [00:03:00] then that sort of leads into a few things. I thought you wanted some pills of wisdom or something that might be useful. Um, this is called scars. Extreme Sportster. Compare with pride their marked bodies, proof of their adventures, each one a rush. I've had adventures, some extreme, where nicks and chunks or a slice has left me scarred. There's a small spot high right thigh where [00:03:30] a belt buckle dug in during sex. It darkens in the sun like that relationship one summer long but dark is a nuclear winter. My perfect nipple, too, was trash that year, pierced with gold too heavy A white road left where it travelled out. There used to be a crescent moon on my shoulder. It's disappeared like the friends that put it there. A relationship that burned deep, went pussy, healed [00:04:00] and slowly faded away. That's all that's left of some people. Other people they've scarred Kilda, Sorry to start on such a heavy note. But, um, I do have, um I am a survivor of child sexual abuse, and so I didn't have a very good sort of start into the whole sex thing. And then, um, was pretty much out on my own, living in the world as an independent at 16, [00:04:30] and, uh, back then, um, I'm a bit sensitive about my age. I don't really like to say how old I am, but I will, because I have been invited as an elder. I'm 51. Um, so yeah, sorry. She said spring chicken. Yeah. Uh, so back then, being sort of cast into the world in the seventies as a 16 year old to just basically be an adult. Um, nowadays, people sort of don't [00:05:00] think of doing that to their kids. Um, back then it was quite common. And, you know, you were that you were an adult, but totally unprepared. Uh, you know, and had no idea of how to how to cope. Um, I used to think of myself that I was just like, you know, in the at the fear. And they have those shooting things where you shoot the ducks Well, I was one of the little ducks, and that's what it was like. I was just like in that game, and people would take pot shots at me and occasionally, some of them, quite a lot of them got lucky. [00:05:30] Um, I wasn't so lucky, though, because I really hadn't, Um I hadn't any idea about what I wanted in life, uh, and what turned me on and what I might be interested in, But I guess I learned a lot from all of those experiences. And, um, and you do experiment and and I. I think you know the main thing. I would like to encourage your younger ones to, um be careful. [00:06:00] Be protect yourself and look after yourself. Um, and each other, but particularly, you know, try to, um you need to be brave. Uh, you do need to work out. Perhaps I was gonna say, work out what really, really turns you on. But that's kind of hard. And so you will experiment, and you will have relationships that don't quite gel. Um, you're not quite compatible. Um, and and then, you know, you have another relationship, [00:06:30] and it might be better to her mother and her. Um, it might be better to think about what your limits are. You know, um, I was once asked, you know. Well, you know what? What are you into? Like you know, anything? Oh, OK. If I can do anything to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Please do anything to me. You know, I was that eager. Um, and and so she said, Well, can I cut your hair off? I'm not. Um no, no, no. You can't cut my hair off, OK, so you do have boundaries, you know, can [00:07:00] I leave you leave scars? Um, no, no, No scars. You know, So think about the things you know, What are the boundaries? What can people not do to you and maybe work backwards as as a good way and rather than OK, what are you into? What should we do? Uh, what should we do in this scene or that scene? Or, um uh, so think about what people can't do to you. That's, uh maybe easier. Um, so [00:07:30] the other thing I'll just read another poem here, Um, which is just about there being lots of different cultures. And I've moved in and out and belonged to a number of different cultures. This one's called Stuck Between worlds. It's quite an old poem now. Then, can I be 9 to 5 Maori? A 24 7 slave, a vegetarian who sometimes eat, eats meat, speaks two languages but never in the same [00:08:00] room. Does that family, like a tourist, leave my lesbian sexuality on the doorstep with the shoes at the assert? Feminist values of equality for all but crave the dominant of my master. Can I weave together these strands? Or do I take left right, left buffeted by these contrary identities and, um, and that's pretty much what it's been like lots of different identities in this very modern contemporary world. [00:08:30] You can move in one culture for a while, and and then you end up in another one, and and I feel comfortable going to the different ones. Um, as long as I know who I am and I so I can come here and be with you today and then most of the week, I'm a mum. Uh, and that's another curl of wisdom I did want to pass on is, um, don't miss out on that. Just, um, and don't leave it too late. I'm very lucky that we have amazing technology [00:09:00] these days. Otherwise, I would have missed out on having my daughter, and she is one of the best things that's ever happened to me. Um, but I left it really, really late as lots of lesbians and gay and by transsexual people. Maybe not so much the buy. But, um, you know, do if you don't have really a source of sperm, so to speak right there, you know, um but, you know, even even gay guys think No, that's not part [00:09:30] of being a gay man. Or, uh, you know, it's not part of our culture as, um LGBTI, but it can be, and it should be. And as Maori, of course, it it definitely is. So please don't see that as not part of your world. We need to be parents. We need more diverse people to be parents so that there will be more Children in the world who are OK with that. And we can grow that diversity. And that's about something we pass on to kids as well. [00:10:00] So, um, my daughter is, um um uh, artificial. Um Well, she's IVF and X So she was a IVF baby. Means she was, uh, in the, you know, in the little thingy, whatever it's called Petri dish. Um, but we also had to do I which is intros. Sperm injection is fantastic technology these days, but, um, you know, So it is there, and even if you don't want to, like, do [00:10:30] it naturally, there's lots of ways to be a parent. Don't wait for the white picket fence and the perfect partner, and they may not come along. In fact, they may not come along until you've got the child. Um, I was very lucky. Um, I did have a a gay friend who agreed to be a sperm donor, and and then, after almost a year of trying, um, it didn't work. And then we ran out of banked sperm, and, um, and by that time, I was being a bit naughty and playing around and [00:11:00] experimenting and other sort of, um, and another culture. And I asked, um, a guy I was playing with if he would be a donor for me, And, um So then he trotted into the clinic and deposited, and, uh, it worked First time, so and we're still together today, and, um, that's nearly 10 years. Not anything I ever would have thought would happen. Sometimes you just have to be open to the unimaginable. [00:11:30] Um And, um, So, um, yeah, uh, we don't We don't, uh, identify as heterosexuals, and it kind of really annoys me. That's the way everyone will see us. But, you know, um, who cares? Um, our daughter is what's most important. And, um, you know, we know who we are. We're quite comfortable with that. Um, and the focus at the moment is on her Not so [00:12:00] much on the sexual identity side of ourselves. It's all about work and raising money and developing and having a financial. Um, financial security is very important. Please learn about money. Um, the way to look after yourself to protect yourself is to, uh, develop your independence. That means your financial independence. So you're not dependent on other people. You've got to learn about power. One last poem. Um, because you mentioned about the book. [00:12:30] And so this is from the book indigenous. Hm. I can't remember the stories of I can't remember the title stories of something About indigenous sexuality stories. That's right. It's a great book, and it's often on trade me for, like, a dollar or something. So this is called Pound Me. There used to be a club in Wellington for the pound. I don't know if you you might remember the pound. No. [00:13:00] Yeah. Meal loud with discourse. You talk sex, Say, fuck me. Spill sluttish secrets Later at the pound chokingly thick with smoke, throbbing hot with beat we dance around each other You lanky, angular boy me lace softened girl choreographed fantasy You packing tight white fronts dick and thrusted me bowing forward as [00:13:30] lifted. Ready, rapid, playful ramming. You dragging me audience to your desire went through We leave sweat calls quickly in the 4 a. m. air You gentlemen escort polite me, damsel enthralled, Waiting. See what? II? I [00:14:00] guess I'll just do a little bit of a a personal personal story, Um, of my experiences, Um, and some thoughts that I've had throughout the day. Um, like, I feel, um you know Oh, an elder crikey. Haven't really done anything to kind of, uh, warrant that, um, market respect. Um, and I certainly want to, um, acknowledge. You know, those who, um, are much older [00:14:30] and much wiser than myself. Um, and you know, particularly, um, as a source of inspiration for me has been, um, the lesbian feminist women who really fought around the visibility issues, which, um, are still, you know, it still important. Still very important for so many of us. So I want to acknowledge that and and talking about, um, you know, but trans identity kind of space. Um, I want to acknowledge that those you know, those other perspectives are [00:15:00] really important as well within our communities. Um, OK, so on to I guess, my little personal jaunt. Um, I came out in 1986 which was homosexual law reform year. And there was a lot of people outing themselves, um, as a political act, which was very important at that time. And, um, there was no space for, um, uncertainty. So, um, you know, you had to out yourself, um, which was [00:15:30] very important. And you had to out yourself the whole way. There was no, um, space for sitting in between for questioning, Um, at that time, and I'm really glad that now there is much more space for, um for different kinds of questioning. and, um, people going on their journey at whatever time and space they they can. You know? Um, so I came out wholesale to everyone I knew at, um, a student conference, including my sister, and I saw the [00:16:00] look on her face at the back of the room thinking I probably should have spoken to her first. Um, but, you know, that was interesting. And shortly after that, I, um you know, I was chatting to some elders. Um, And I said, how do I meet other women? And, um, they were like, you need to cut your hair and dress like a dyke. So, um, you know, that's how we identified ourselves in those days and, you know, made ourselves, um, visible. So, um, this [00:16:30] is a picture of me at about I've got props. This is a picture of me, um, at about 19. Very er, razor head, kind of haircut, kind of punk, goth. Kind of don't fuck with me. Kind of chewed. And, um, it was it was very good and very empowering. I loved it. Um, and there was always for me gender. There's always been an element of of format toity about it. and an element of creativity about it, I guess. Which I've always really enjoyed. So that was kind of playing with that. [00:17:00] Um, after a while, I began to feel like that wasn't really me that I. I was kind of playing with something. Um, that didn't feel quite natural. And I began over time to embrace more and more sort of being, um, the sort of stuff. I didn't have the language for it at the time, but that's what happened. Um, and these days, I kind of see myself as I. I call myself a queer because that kind of [00:17:30] embraces everything that I am to me. Um, I'm not a high fame because I'm far too lazy, you know? Like it's very time consuming and expensive, you know, and all you know, or speak to women who can, um, be there. Um, but, you know, Yeah, I think I'm more like a low down dirty or something. Um, so yeah, so I've [00:18:00] just I've just written down some ideas and things. Um, and you know, if I've talked too long, just tell me to move on. Um, so I've got some photos from different times. Um, interesting hearing about the sort of fractured identity. Um, references. Um, when I turned 35 I kind of decided I created this. I had this this birthday party where I had a a come as your alter ego party, and I created this character for myself called Ruby Red. [00:18:30] And so that was that's who dressed up in this kind of high feminist thing. And, um and then I decided, Oh, actually, that's who I am. That's who I'm going to aspire to be, you know? So this sort of powerful kind of person. Um, and there's some photos here. I did a sort of take off of the two, you know, I'm holding my own hand and that sort of stuff and different looks. And I guess at that point in my life, I had, you know, quite [00:19:00] sort of fractured identities that were affecting my mental health. You know, I, um I'm bisexual. I'm half Jewish, which is, you know, in this country there's not very many Jews. Um, and, you know, I sort of felt like it didn't really belong anywhere. I felt quite marginalised, and quite, you know, I if I pictured myself, I was all these different things. It didn't quite fit together, and I felt like I didn't really belong anywhere. So I was kind of playing with that stuff. And there's some photos here of, um, [00:19:30] me dressed as an Orthodox Jewish woman, Um, lighting Sabbath candles. But there's only, like, one candle. And in this photo there's a classic, um, lesbian feminist Jewish anthology of writing called Nice Jewish Girls. And so I'm holding that book up. But I'm kind of looking sideways in sort of a bit doubtfully, so, you know, because I didn't really fit anywhere. So I was playing with all that sort of stuff. Um, And for me, you know, being part of [00:20:00] this wider sort of, um, community, I guess of, um, you know, but trans gender queer, um, people is really liberating. It's really powerful, you know? I, I love it. It's really exciting. Um, and that's where I've come to feel more comfortable. Like I can be all of who I am. I can change. I can be different things at different times. Um, and I don't have to kind of justify that. I can just enjoy it. Um, but [00:20:30] I think where I became to, you know, where I realised? Um, perhaps I'm a I did some reading about, um it was from American writings, and it was describing. It might have even been Joan Nestle or someone describing that experience of being a film where you know you can you can sense this butch energy across the room. And, you know, I've always been one of those those people that sort of gone weak at the knees around that [00:21:00] kind of energy, you know? And, um, I really enjoyed it. And, um, I just feel like I'm rambling, so I'll go back to the pictures. Um, this is a dark, dark ball. Probably about 2004. 2005. Something like that. Where, um my partner and I were really doing this sort of gangster gangster mole. Kind of, um, character. You know, this is really good fun. It's always been good fun for me. Um, [00:21:30] yeah. I think something that's, um, really important for me about this, this topic and and, you know, having this conversation at this point in time was really good, because, um, but fear, identities and and gender expressions have been historically, always part of our communities, you know? And there's been times where, um, you know, perhaps those expressions have been a bit more silenced, um, or a bit more not popular or whatever than at other times. And [00:22:00] I think as queer identity become more accepted and more sort of allowed into the mainstream. It's gonna be really, um, important for us to also have those subcultures and to be able to, um, retain those kinds of histories, histories, identities. Um, that is so much part of queer culture and queer community. Um, and that sort of stands in in a nice contrast to, um, you know, being assimilated into the mainstream. Some [00:22:30] people are really happy to be, um, you know, I'm just the same as everyone else. Um, even though I'm gay kind of thing. And then there's a lot of us who you know, Um, see all these identities as really positive. And don't I don't even want to be mainstream, You know, I want to be all of who I am and and, um, enjoy being part of this world. I think that's probably enough to start with. Thank you. Can I just ask one question you use the term high. What's funny? [00:23:00] Have been lost. Probably generally associated with, um, high heels. Um, lipstick. Ok, I guess it's my turn. It's a bit nerve wracking sitting here, actually, especially listening to all these amazing women talk before me. Um, I'm Annie. Um, I turned 50 in September, [00:23:30] and I and I just love that. I feel like I'm fabulous at 50. Um, I Sometimes I identify as high fame sometimes I'm just them. Sometimes I'm just me, um, but I came out in the early eighties, uh, when I was in university in Christchurch. Um, and my I was taking feminist studies at the time, and, [00:24:00] um, although I was fucking women from time to time, I didn't identify as, um is lesbian. Even so. Then I started meeting lots of amazing lesbian women. Um, I hate that I just said lesbian women because, you know, anyway, lesbians are women obviously don't need that qualify. But, um, So I met, uh, lots of women and, um, and my partner at the time. Or I got [00:24:30] together with Jen, who was, um, doing a PhD in feminist studies. So we ended up living together and had a fabulous time. Um, she she was kind of androgynous. Um, and I was, um I didn't really I think I was always a bit girly, but, um, I thought I was quite butch, like whenever we did any kind of, um, psychological profiling, [00:25:00] where you had to look at your personality, you know, which just measures masculinity versus femininity. Even though I'm very feminine, and I feel very feminine. I'm actually, um I'm way more masculine in those tests than most men turn out to be. Um, and I think that's a dominant A thing about dominance. Um, so anyway, so we had a lovely life for for quite a few years. I think about eight or nine years we lived together. And then, um, [00:25:30] And during that time, I was exploring my sexuality. My friend Tonya was an art student, um, and a lesbian. And we were best friends. And she did, um, a perspective on Butch and fem. And at the time I was reading, um, I discovered Joan Nestle's book a butch fem desire, and I just inhaled it. I could probably still quote lots of it right now. Um, please don't ask me [00:26:00] to just in case I can't. But, um, for me, that book was huge, because I began to realise that, um, maybe I wasn't so much after all, and that the people and the qualities that attracted me and a woman were masculine. I loved the masculine energy. Um, I get all wobbly and hot. And when a really butch diet walked [00:26:30] in the room, I'd be, uh I wouldn't be able to talk properly or anything like that. Um, and I was just Yeah. So anyway, Jen and I eventually split up, and and I, um, got myself a the biggest butchers diet I could find in in Christchurch. And, um and the passion that we had together was actually incredible. For the first time in my life, I think I was really breathless [00:27:00] all the time. It was Yeah, it was just an incredibly passionate time. Unfortunately, it, um, grew into a a very, um, uh, violent relationship. She was She had, um, lots of violence and abandonment issues, and, um and yeah, and the relationship broke down. It actually took me a long, long time to escape [00:27:30] the relationship in the end. So it became really ugly and tainted and and all that. But anyway, um, so lucky for me, I met Chris online at a place called butch film dot com, Actually, so, um, we were quite naive, actually, um, about online stuff. And, um, I'd had gotten my first computer that I could actually even [00:28:00] get online at the time. So, um, I'd go in there and, you know, we chat away, and it was good fun. And we, um we discovered that we, um that we loved each other after a while, which people find really bizarre that you can. He he he was living in Washington State. Chris is trans FTM female to male transsexual. It's OK for me to say so. He was living in Washington and I was living in Christchurch and, [00:28:30] um after, I think 11 months, he sold up everything and came to Christchurch, which was a massive risk and a bit scary. Um, so but the really end, the thing that I remember about him coming to Christchurch was being at the airport, and I've been at the airport lots of times to meet women partners and generally get disapproving looks. But this time this man came out and, um and [00:29:00] I just burst into tears. Of course, because I'm a crier, and we had this huge hug, and when when we came up for ear, every person around you had a lovely smile on their face. So I really felt really acutely at that moment, that heterosexual privilege that Adrian Rich, I think, is it talks about, um and I felt I didn't feel good about it. It didn't sit well with me. Um, and [00:29:30] actually, I used to be really, um I used to love the lesbian community in Christchurch. But once I sort of realised that I was, um, gaining all this heterosexual privilege that I was actually quite unwanted for me. I didn't actually want it. I liked being a dike, and I liked people realising that I was a dike, except for those times when you were invisible. And I, too, actually went through the short hair thing to, you know, really related to your story. [00:30:00] I still looked hot, though, anyway, um, so So So that was really big for me, that heterosexual privilege. And, um, so I actually began to retreat from the lesbian community. At that point, I never felt pushed out at all um I just felt like I didn't really belong anymore. So I exiled myself. I guess, in a way, um, anyway, so we went to America [00:30:30] after a bit, because we, um because anyway, the immigration requirements were that we it was impossible for us to to show that we had a long enough duration relationship for him to stay. So So, um, because I'm a teacher, I could get work easily in America. So, um, so I did. And, um went over there and discovered the butch film community there and, uh, met amazing met our best [00:31:00] friends or people who were, um uh, um what do you call it? Best man and all that sort of thing. Um, with the people that own butch dot com. So our life was all our life was all but and it was amazing. It was really wonderful. Like all of a sudden, we had lots of parties and we had lots of people who were who are just like us. And I've never felt so [00:31:30] peace, peace, full of peace, as I had as I did then, with all these butchers and all these films and lots of trans people around And it was, um, the most wonderful time. We spent three years involved heavily involved in the film community and to a lesser degree in the B DS M community. Not Butch necessarily. But, you know, just B DS M community there. And, um, yeah, we had a marvellous time. So when we came back, um, it was quite a shock. Really? Because, [00:32:00] um, we're back in New Zealand and well, and plus, um, we moved to Auckland rather than to Christchurch because I knew I could get work in Christ in Auckland rather than Christchurch. So and I had some family here. So, um, we, um suddenly we went from this amazing, euphoric place full of butchers and fins to Auckland. We we didn't know anybody [00:32:30] really, and certainly didn't know any queers. And we have It's kind of just turned completely around because Chris's job is quite high profile. Um, you know, he's, you know, you remember Chris when you see him walking down the street and people people do remember him. So, um, we've actually become very closeted since we've been back. And we live the life of a straight couple now, which is awful when I think of the the bloody heterosexual privilege [00:33:00] all over again. Um, and that we have we that we can do that. And I I and I felt some guilt for quite a while about, um, other people that weren't able to access that kind of privilege. Anyway, so, um, here we are today. But luckily, I have met a few butchers and a few films, and, um, I believe it was clear they put you. Yeah. I love you. Yeah, my friend Clare in Wellington, you probably know [00:33:30] Clare. Um, she's just a huge breath of fresh air. So she's like my main fem friend. Really? So I treasure those in particular fem relationships. Um, so, uh, I'm not quite sure where I'm going now, um, there's probably about all for the moment. Thank you. [00:34:00] I got a big voice, so I don't think you're gonna You could probably leave it outside, and you're gonna get it. So, you know, um, I didn't plan for this, and I'm really sorry. So, um, she probably told me what a week or so ago, but, um, I probably forgot a lot about that, but, uh, we'll carry on nonetheless. Um, hi. My name is Chris. I'm American. So sorry about that. [00:34:30] Uh, she probably told most of what I was gonna say. Thanks, baby. But, um, I guess I could talk a little bit about transitioning and for me, um, what it means and how it's affected me. And it's been a roller coaster ride, but I think that's pretty much my existence. And I suppose that's a good thing because you learn a lot, you do a lot, and it's cool. But, uh, I guess personally, for me, my identity [00:35:00] is more of a fluid, you know, it doesn't really stop. It's not either, or because, um, I don't think life works that way. So, um, you'd have, uh I guess living my life as as a lesbian was I don't know, I would say difficult, but definitely different, because, um, it's the opposite of what it is now. I mean, as a dyke, you you ain't sneaking up on anybody. [00:35:30] Um, with what you are, you know, no one's gonna wonder. Hm. I wonder that a lesbian, you know, or or but Yeah, definitely. You know, uh, but as Trans, uh, not only did I lose that identity as female but also identity as queer just lost it. It was, like, almost sad. Like something died because, you know, [00:36:00] women would see you and they'd see you as a dude. And then, um, yeah, which is what I want. But you lost in the queer community like Lisbon, you'd see somebody, you know, you're gay eyes boo boo boo. And you see him. You know, you give them that look like it suck and like you like, Yeah, you know, or or worse that that will hurt saying, you know, you get that that look. But, um, you want them over anyways, you do. [00:36:30] You do because, you know, especially in the tattoo industry, when they come in for tattoos and stuff. You want to say that, you know, Especially when, um, you get, um, soft Butcher. Butch, come in and you know it. And you, you feel it and everything. And, uh, you can't really go can't just out yourself. That part is kind of bad, but, um, I think I didn't do it for that, you know? Just did it because I needed to. Honestly, [00:37:00] what? Um, I would definitely recommend book going up to the, um look it up online. The butch film community It's good, gives you lots of resources and talks more about the dynamics of of, uh, transition and queer and the fluidity. Flu fluidity. There you go. Thanks. Very [00:37:30] teacher. It's always good, right? But, um Fuck. I was really hoping people would just ask me questions. And if you want to do that because I think I just lose track and I It's hard for me to really, um, put words together unless somebody has a specific thing to say. You know, like, you know, questions. Yeah. Thanks. You have this going down, [00:38:00] OK?

IRN: 679
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089369
TITLE: Reflections on Church and State (Auckland) - Marriage Equality
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VOICES: Boris Dittrich; Clay Nelson; Louisa Wall
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Anti-Homosexuality Bill (Uganda); Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland Community Church; Bill of Rights Act (1990); Boris Dittrich; Civil Union Act (2004); Clay Nelson; Glynn Cardy; Human Rights Act (1993); Louisa Wall; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Māori; Nanaia Mahuta; Netherlands; New Zealand Labour Party; Pacific; Parliament buildings; Quilter case (1996); St Matthew-in-the-City; UN Human Rights Watch; Uganda; Venn Young; age of consent; celebrant; church; civil unions; equality; homosexual law reform; human rights; marriage; marriage equality; painting; politics; pornography; religion; spirituality
DATE: 22 November 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: St Matthew-in-the-City, 132 Hobson Street, Auckland
CONTEXT: Audio from a marriage equality discussion held at St-Matthew-in-the-City on 22 November 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Good evening. I'm Clay Nelson. And on behalf of Saint Matthew and the city and the Auckland Community Church, I want to thank you for being here and to welcome you. I know it takes some effort to be here at six o'clock, doesn't it? With traffic and all? No. Our apologies for the traffic. Um but I especially want to welcome our guests this evening. Louisa Wall [00:00:30] and Boris die. Um welcome. Welcome. Welcome. Before getting on with the programme a few housekeeping duties, the fire exits are Follow me wherever I go screaming if there's an emergency but the doors you came in, there's a side door over here. And if you go down the stairs where the loos are as well, there's an exit out of the building at that time [00:01:00] afterwards, courtesy of after the forum, courtesy of the Auckland Community Church. We have a little cup of and we can get to know each other a little better before introducing our guest speakers. I would just like to make a few comments on the topic under consideration. Marriage, equality, reflections on church and state. The focus on church and state explains why this forum is being held [00:01:30] in a church. It is being held in this church because of our historic support of the LGBT Q community and our unqualified support for passage of the Marriage Equality Act. As you might be able to tell, I'm an American and as an American, I'm a fervent believer in an Impenetrable I can't say the word, though Impenetrable wall of separation between church and state in the US, it [00:02:00] is the church that keeps trying to breach it, and it has succeeded too many times. In Aotearoa, New Zealand, the Bill of Rights calls for a separation. But there's a long tradition of Christian and Maori spiritual spirituality being included in Parliament schools and on public occasions. I've been an outspoken critic of some of these practises, especially in public schools, in particular the Bible and Schools programme. [00:02:30] I believe separation protects both the church and the state from abuses by others and allows for true freedom of religion as well as freedom from religion. Some of my own Anglican, some of from my own Anglican tradition and other Christian faith groups believe the Marriage Equality Act will force them to do marriages between same sex couples as you will hear in more detail tonight that it's not the case. No minister [00:03:00] celebrant is ever required to marry anyone. This has always been true and will not change with this act. So why do other Christian communities object to doing same sex marriages primarily because they claim it's unbiblical and will harm traditional marriage? I won't dwell on this now, except to say there are all kinds of marriages, such as polygamy in the Bible, that do not meet our understanding of marriage. Today. Within our [00:03:30] Anglican tradition, we have moved from understanding marriage as being about procreation to being about making a loving commitment. Our understanding of marriage keeps evolving, and I suspect we will continue to do so. Passage of this act will just be one more step along the way of human evolution and understanding well enough for me. Let me introduce whom you've come to hear. [00:04:00] Well, she Before I do that, let me explain how the programme is going to go. Boris is going to do most speaking, I'm told. Then we're going to take questions from you all, and then Lua is going to do an update. So, uh, Louisa hardly needs any introduction, especially since her private member Bill uh for Marriage Equality was selected by lottery to be debated this year. Luis is the elected [00:04:30] member of parliament for man. That's one of the Maori words I can't say very well and is a current member of the Maori Affairs Select Committee. Lewis is also the Labour Party spokesperson for the Community and voluntary sector and the sports and recreation portfolios. Luisa is Ngati Tufa and I. [00:05:00] She's brought with her Boris teacher. Boris is the advocacy director of the LGBT Programme under the Human Rights Watch in New York. Boris is a native of the Netherlands and has served in their national congress for 12 years. As a member of parliament. During his tenure as its first openly gay member in parliament, he passed four private bills, something that has never been done before or since. It was his bill for marriage equality [00:05:30] that made the Netherlands the first country in the world to introduce marriage equality. This is just a sample of his many experiences that can enlighten us as to what to expect. If this bill passes, I ask you to warmly welcome Luisa and Boris course, it's all yours. [00:06:00] Thank you very much for your warm welcome. And thank you very much for being here on this wonderful, sunny day. I really appreciate that. Uh, we were stuck in traffic so I could have a good look out of Auckland because actually, that was the only time that I could see something about Auckland. Because for the rest during the programme, I have been inside in buildings, talking to people listening to people. So it was actually wonderful getting stuck in traffic and looking around [00:06:30] for me. It's very, um, uh, special to speak in a church. Uh, and while I was listening to you, I all of a sudden had to think about, um, something that happened to me when I was about I would say, seven or eight years old. I was raised Roman Catholic in the Netherlands, and every Monday morning, uh, at school, the priest would come to our class and would then talk about, uh, Sunday's [00:07:00] ceremony in church sermon and and then would ask about what we thought about, um, what the priest had said, and then one Monday morning, um, he was talking about, uh, the sermon and Then he asked if we wanted to become a priest later in life. And we were with many boys, seven or eight years old, and then he gave turns to everybody. And then the turn was coming to me and I was getting nervous and nervous. What should [00:07:30] I say? And I thought, Let's be honest. So when, um the turn, it was my turn. I said No, I was the only one because everybody wanted to become a priest and I said no and he was really shocked, and he said, Why not? And then I said, because priests cannot marry. And actually that is true for a Roman Catholic church. Um, and later on in life, when I started to work on marriage equality, I sometimes had to think about that [00:08:00] event because, um, the priest was upset with my answer, and he sent me out of the class and I had to wait in the corridor because I was disrupting the order of the class by saying no. But I still think I'm right because priests cannot get married anyway. Uh, all of a sudden I had to think about that while you were introducing me so It's an honour for me to speak in a church, and I would like to take you back to 1994 [00:08:30] when I was first elected in the Dutch Parliament as the first openly gay member of Parliament. And in my first debate with the minister of justice, I presented to plan the concept of marriage equality. And I said, I think the time is here now to introduce marriage equality, full equality for people of the same gender because it's a reflection of the principles of non discrimination [00:09:00] and equality. And in the beginning, in 1994 nowhere in the world people could get married of same sex. So it was rather a new idea, and people had to get used to it. Um, because we are in a church, I think it would be right to really emphasise how shocked people from different religions were Once this proposal had been published. [00:09:30] I got enormous amounts of letters of people saying My religion, uh, tells me that this is wrong. Um, God created Adam and Eve, and so a man and a woman and, um, history doesn't know any same sex marriages. So why would you want to introduce something so alien something so deviant into our tradition into our culture, into our country [00:10:00] and that really, uh, started a whole discussion. If churches or synagogues or mosques would be forced to conduct same sex marriages once civil marriage would have been introduced in the legislation, Um, it has been a very fierce debate, and sometimes people got very, very emotional, so emotional that I received [00:10:30] death threats also from the religious communities. And I had to be guarded by bodyguards. Um, simply because people were upset that such a new concept would be introduced into our society. And I remember, um, when we were discussing the bill in Parliament, the leader of the Orthodox Christian political party. It's a very [00:11:00] small political party, but it's the oldest one in the Netherlands. And by the way, it's a political party that doesn't allow women to have an official function. And it's really something weird in a country like the Netherlands that that party still exists. But anyway, that's the case and that leader in the political debate a final debate, he said, The wrath of God will be [00:11:30] upon you because you have introduced this devious act into our society and God will punish you and all those members of parliament who would vote in favour of it. Fortunately, we had a huge majority of the bill and I remember because I lived in Amsterdam and the Parliament is in The Hague so late at night. I think it was two in the morning. I had to go back by car from The Hague [00:12:00] to Amsterdam, which is, let's say, one hour's drive. And I was so shocked by, you know, the spell that I thought I have to drive very, very carefully because just imagine if I would get an accident, people would think Well, see, God has punished him. So I was driving so slowly that I became really a danger on the road and people started to hunk let go fast, fast. Anyway, um, the bill has passed, and in 2001 [00:12:30] on the first of April, it was implemented. And the interesting thing is that once people got used to two men or two women getting married, you know, all the fear and all the concerns actually evaporated. And what we see now is that many members of Parliament from the Christian parties who voted against marriage equality have now changed sides [00:13:00] and acknowledged publicly that they were wrong, or at least that they changed their minds. And they are now in favour of same sex marriage. In 2007, the Christian Coalition gained power and, uh, the biggest political party at the time. The Christian Democratic Party started to govern with another small Christian Orthodox, uh, political party, And that party had, in its party manifesto, the repeal [00:13:30] of same sex marriage and mind you. Then we had, uh, same sex marriages already for about seven years. So everybody was a little concerned what would happen once they would start governing. But on their first press conference, they said, We've thought about this. We have the repeal of same sex marriage in our party manifesto, but we've seen so many gay couples, lesbian couples getting married, becoming happy, vowing [00:14:00] responsibility, love commitment to one another. And those are actually values that we support from our religion. So we decided to let it be, we will not repeal the same sex marriage act, and I thought that was really a watershed moment because from that moment on, actually, it's not so much a discussion anymore. Everybody has accepted marriage equality into the Dutch society. It's an integral part of society, [00:14:30] and it's is there and it will be there. So I'm very glad that that happened. Um, we are now in 2012. So it's 11. 5 years after the introduction of the same sex marriage act, and we see that in society, people really understand and and feel that this is something that is there and is there to stay. About one year ago, I went to a birthday party and some [00:15:00] young kids came to me and said, Is it true that in the last century, uh, gay people could not get married? I said, Yes, that's true And he said, But it's discrimination And then I said, Yeah, and that's why we changed the law. And it's actually so wonderful to see that a whole generation now is growing up and they don't understand that there was a time that this was not possible. So that shows you that once people get used to [00:15:30] a new concept and see that people are happy and that there is no revolution that will break out and that God did not punish the Netherlands and we did not fall into a moral abyss, as several people predicted. Then life goes on and people are OK with it and we can focus on other issues and we need to focus on other issues because sometimes people think, you know, once you have marriage, [00:16:00] equality and full equality for LGBT people and other people that there is no problem in society anymore. And that's of course not true people will always discriminate. And so we have to be very alert and mindful that that we will address those issues because even though we have same sex marriage and all kinds of other provisions in Dutch legislation, so there's not so much to [00:16:30] achieve in terms of legislation anymore. There are still young people who commit suicide, for instance, because they are gay or lesbian and they find themselves very isolated from the rest of society and thinking about discrimination. There are many forms of discrimination, but the difference between um being born in an ethnic minority group, for instance, is [00:17:00] that, um you are together with your family and you're all from the same ethnic minority, and you are discriminated, maybe from outside, but you have each other, and you feel safe in your own environment. But when you are gay or lesbian or transgender and you find your identity, um, usually when you're young you're on your own because you have to tell your parents, your brothers, your sisters, your environment and sometimes those environments [00:17:30] can be very hostile. And so it's very important, Um, as a young person, when you come out that you understand that you are part of society. And actually I think that is one of the most wonderful effects of marriage. Equality in the Netherlands is that young people, when they come out, they feel they are protected or supported by the law. Because the law says you are equal and there is no difference [00:18:00] between you or a heterosexual person. You can even get married with a partner of the same gender. And that helps people understanding that although they are different from the majority in terms of sexual orientation or gender identity, that the law is on their side. And that's a psychologically very important step, Um, internationally. After 2001, many other countries followed. [00:18:30] Um and I've been active in same sex marriage campaigns in Belgium and Argentina and also in Australia, where, as you know, same sex marriage was voted down. Um, but the interesting thing is that in each of those countries, when the proposal has been done in parliament, the same kind of discussion erupts. And actually, today Louise and I went to Wellington to the committee that was hearing [00:19:00] submissions, oral submissions about the marriage, her marriage equality act. Um, we heard exactly the same arguments like, uh, 15 years ago in the Netherlands, about Adam and Eve, and about why it's so important that only heterosexual people can get married. Even one of the members of Parliament was a very interesting question to me. Asked me, How do gay people or lesbian people how do they get Children? And I thought, What [00:19:30] does he want to know from me? You know? And so I tried to give an answer, and then he got back to me and he asked it again and again. And I felt well, does he want to know technically, how people can get Children? That my task now to explain that to him? Unfortunately, the chair of the committee then said, Well, this is actually an out of order, so I got away with it. But it was remarkable that the same type [00:20:00] of arguments, um, were, um, were actually presented by many people who gave oral submissions, as in the Netherlands or in those other countries where I attended those, uh, marriage equality campaigns. Um, but the But the interesting thing is that in the 11 countries where marriage equality has been achieved, um, there are no problems, actually, and even religious people who were against marriage [00:20:30] equality they accept that it's there, that it's the law, a democratic process has taken place and we move on. So there is a lot of fear before something has been introduced. But that's my message, actually. But once it's there, people get used to it and move on, and it's part of society. What I thought was very hopeful and interesting was on the sixth of November, when in the United States, [00:21:00] the presidential elections took place, that also in three states Maine, Maryland and Washington state people had a referendum about marriage equality and in those three states for the first time in the world, actually by popular vote. People just went to the ballot and voted in favour of marriage equality. So in that case, there was no parliament or there was no court decision. It was just the majority of the people who said yes. Our fathers, [00:21:30] our mothers, our brothers, our sisters, our sons, our daughters. Everybody can be gay or lesbian, so why not give them the right the right, that we have the right of marriage equality. So I think it's a good time to stop now and see if there are some questions. Do you agree? Ok. Oh, I'd like to hear that. Thank you. Well, thank you for your attention. By the way, if you have a question, we need to use the mic. [00:22:00] So Sorry. Hi. Um, as you you'll probably know in New Zealand, the Civil Union Act was passed in 2004, and, um, since then we've had civil unions and much of what you said about the opposition of the opponents of essentially the opponents of gay people. Let's be honest, um has [00:22:30] evaporated. And some even who were opposed to civil unions would say Well, now we've actually got legal status for, um, Gay people. There's no need for gay marriage. So from your perspective, you went from, I think, having a civil partnership legislation in the Netherlands to your legislation to have gay marriage. And you must have some experience of why it was important [00:23:00] to make that change. Yes. Well, thank you for your question. Um, at the time in 1994 when I started a discussion about marriage equality in the Netherlands, there was no civil union or registered partnership, as we call it. Um, it was in, in in Scandinavia and so we thought, Well, maybe marriage equality is too big a step, So let's first start with civil unions. And, um, the funny thing was that once the [00:23:30] civil Union act was introduced and people went to the municipality to have their, um uh, relationship, um, recognised by the state When they got out of the municipality building, they said, Aha, we are married and everybody was talking about marriage while it was not a marriage but a civil union. So the step to reach a marriage equality was actually not so big because many people thought, But we do have marriage equality already, don't we? And then we [00:24:00] had to explain. No, it's a civil union and they thought, Oh, but if it's almost the same, why not take the next step? But, um, like what happened this morning, Uh, for the committee and one of the religious opponents of marriage, Equality said. I have to admit that I was against civil unions, but now that we have them, OK, it's fine. I'm in favour of it. But now I'm against marriage equality. And so one of the members [00:24:30] of parliament asked. But once we introduce marriage equality, maybe you will be then in favour of marriage equality. And he didn't really have a clear answer, He said. I hope that marriage will stay a bond between a man and a woman, which is not a real answer, I thought. But we've seen the same thing happen in the Netherlands that the opponents of the Civil Union, usually out of religious reasons once we had it, they used that as an argument against marriage equality because the [00:25:00] gays and the lesbians they have their separate thing. So why should they need to enter? Um, civil marriage? Is that a answer to your question? Pretty good. Thank you. to, um, in this country, you probably heard already. Um, much of the debate against marriage. Equality is actually by people who don't like gays. Anyway, Um, [00:25:30] and this is the latest stage upon which to make that clear. Uh, and it is true that some have got used to civil union. Um, and I think I can say that in my debates within the church, it's now clear that even some of the more conservative evangelical members of, um, the churches have at last accepted that gay rights are here and have to be accepted. So now we have to quote, find a way [00:26:00] to live with differences, which is quite a step forward, actually. But on the marriage issue, that's still quite concrete. And it's unfortunately, based on a misunderstanding of marriage, um, people seem to think that Jesus or God or somebody started marriage and worked it out. Um, so we and this is I'm leading up to a question. One of the things is that the education process within [00:26:30] the community about the basis of marriage or those things which have contributed to marriage because marriage is actually only fairly fairly recent, you know, four or 500 years long. What in other countries, what processes have been used in that education in the general community and all the churches? Um, has it been always the confrontation thing [00:27:00] or the submission thing? Has it been primary focused on schools? I mean, how did it happen? It was a long preamble to a question at the end. Get what I'm asking. Yes, I get what you're saying. How did it happen? Well, actually, um, there was no debate in the Netherlands about marriage equality until I started it immediately in parliament. So there was not, um, a basis of, [00:27:30] um, you know, as society, civil society, uh, demonstrating, marching in front of parliament and saying we demand, uh, marriage equality. So it was something which landed upon the people, and so it was a shock, and that's why we started talking about it. But public debate in the media, especially, um, you know, is very important so that people pick it up and start talking about it at home. And, um, the most important thing [00:28:00] I would say is to, um, avoid fear mongering. That's actually what it was, because deliberately, there were people, you know, trying to make other people afraid by saying things that are not true. And actually, I also see that here in New Zealand, when I we heard it on the radio when we got stuck in traffic, there was this piece on the news about the committee this morning [00:28:30] and we heard somebody say People are forced to conduct same sex marriages in churches. The celebrants don't have any choice. It's obligatory, which is really not true when you read Louis Equality uh, Marriage, Equality Act. So there is distortion of what is going on simply because people don't like the result, the end result. And they try to instigate fear and concerns with people. [00:29:00] So it's very important not necessarily in schools or in the educational system, but in the public discourse to really stick to the facts. What is a marriage equality Act? Well, it's civil marriage, and there is a distinction between civil marriage, marriage and religion, the church, and so we need to keep that in mind, and maybe Louisa will talk about it later. But I think it's very important to simply stick to the facts [00:29:30] and present the facts, and then hopefully that will be picked up. Hey, um um, in New Zealand, um, we've got under, like in criminal law. Um, they define rape as a man raping a woman, and they have a similar, um, crime for a man rape, raping a man. But it's not called rape because of the history between the word of the rape. And so you have an unlawful sexual connection. [00:30:00] Um, and what I was wondering that's been criticised in New Zealand because the way it's interpreted by courts is not in keeping with rape, even though the starting sentence is the same. Um, a similar argument is why we shouldn't just be OK with the Soviet Union. We want full marriage equality because it's not been interpreted the same. But wouldn't would it be so difficult to leave the historical term marriage and instead of a Marriage Equality Act [00:30:30] to completely, um, remove the gender definition within marriage, perhaps say, well, a civil union should be interpreted to be the same legal status if if we change the way it's interpreted, if we are positively legislated to say this is how civil union should be interpreted to be the same, would that still be a lesser outcome than full marriage. Equality? Well, I think the word [00:31:00] marriage has a certain meaning in life. And people understand. It's about love and commitment, responsibility. And if you say OK for gay people, lesbian people, we are going to do something else, or we name it something else. Then it's like that concept of love, commitment, responsibility sharing is not ok for lesbians and gays. And I don't see why we should lessen ourselves or make [00:31:30] it less important for the LGBT community are part of this society. We are here to stay, We belong. And we are as good as everybody else or as bad as everybody else. Because there are also terrible gay men and terrible lesbian women. But we are here, and so I don't think we should make any distinction. Hi. Welcome. Thank you for coming here today. Um, this [00:32:00] has been eye opening, and, um, I'm sure we're all learning. Um, well, I am. Anyway, I don't know if you guys are a little bit more. Um, I don't want to be a downer, but I find this is never talked about when it comes to this debate, and I'd like to bring it up singers. You've had, uh, same sex marriages, Uh, and the Netherlands for about over 10 years. Marriages don't always work. And there [00:32:30] will. There will have been some divorces coming through the legal system from those marriages, which is sad, but to be expected. Um, when it comes to marriage equality, a lot of people would argue that traditional marriage is not a marriage of equals anyway, because you have, you know, different gender and different expectations. I'd like to know what's happening on that end of it and in Holland. And my [00:33:00] question is, is it affecting the way people think about marriage itself? When they does the falling apart of them affect the way they see traditional. You know, men, women, marriages, same sex marriages for me, I. I would think that all this would be being questioned now because, you know, traditionally back in the olden days when a couple divorces, the man gets this and the woman gets that and the woman gets preference [00:33:30] for you know all of those things. You know, child, Um who keeps the Children all that kind of thing. Uh, you guys must be going through this right now. I mean, it's probably not the time to talk about it. But if we have foresight, I just I was wondering how the impact that it is having on the legal system and on society there now. Well, when I proposed marriage equality, uh, one of the fiercest opponents was the LGBT community, or at [00:34:00] least part of the LGBT community. And they came to the to parliament and and they wanted to talk to me and they were very upset. And they said to me, Why do you want to reinforce the institution of marriage? Because it's unbalanced and especially women, um, are not really taken care of in a marriage. Um, and now you want to reinforce it by opening it up for, um, LGBT people. I always said it's a matter of choice. [00:34:30] If you don't want to get married first, you need to have the choice, and then you can say no, no, I'm not forcing anybody to get married. Um, it might be a little bit too early, but it might be that now that every year hundreds of LGBT couples get married that that reflects on, Let's say, the broader group of people who get married. And it might be that when two men or two women get married, they are more [00:35:00] each other's equals in a relationship than the traditional man who is going out to work and the woman who has to stay at home and taking care of the kids. And it might be that in the course of time that might influence the balance of, let's say, power of the balance of opposite genders in the institution of marriage. And maybe in the long run, I don't know. But it might be that people want to redefine [00:35:30] marriage or maybe rewrite the law and maybe make it much more simple and much more direct so that it's a bond between two people and the law gives it some legal consequences. And that's it. Yes, uh, got a couple of little questions. First, I would just like to make a little theological comment. Um, [00:36:00] I'm speaking from the perspective of 30 years research into homosexuality and the publication of two encyclopaedias. And in the course of the research, I came across something that the creative act God creating the world or humanity was male to male. God created Adam and Eve comes out of Adam and this came up in the Kabbalah, the Jewish Kabbah. Here's a book called The Erotic. [00:36:30] The Erotic Kala. The Erotic of the Kabbalah. Um, and you could look at Michelangelo's painting of the last, you know, the two hands. However, um, the the way I see, I'm just asking. I'm thinking further ahead because I think the the marriage debate is, uh, it's really been one. The battle is you know, we're nearly there, not all everywhere in [00:37:00] the world, but in the United States. After the 2003 Lawrence versus Texas case, they can't. It will not be upheld A against gay marriage. The issues that I see from my research and I've also visited the Kinsey Institute and done research There are puberty. I think that is the crucial. That is much more important than gay marriage. And in many ways, the hysteria about gay marriage [00:37:30] is nothing to the hysteria about puberty. And, um, the question is, I suppose how do you see this coming up in the future and allied with? I mean, I also want to make clear here that there are very different legal ages of sexual consent as I pointed out to you yesterday, 13 in Japan and everybody's gonna be horrified when I say this. But I found out recently that the legal age of consent for sex in Delaware [00:38:00] was seven in the last century and it was 10 in many other US states. Now, anyway, um, the next point I want to ask about is pornography or erotica. It seems to me pretty horrifying that people get chucked into jails For years. It was a sensational case in Australia for looking at erotica. I mean, if this is also horrifying, [00:38:30] why don't the authorities go after the people who are making this horrifying stuff? And I'll just give one little example here If you type in the words Japan and gay on the Internet, see what comes up on the first page. When I looked at it, I thought, My God, you know, I'll be in jail for 30 years. But this this obviously comes from Japan anyway, what do you see about the P? How do you see the puberty issue coming up and the legal [00:39:00] age of sexual consent? And also, what are your comments on the erotica? Wow, that's really a tough question because I cannot really look into the future that much. Um, the age of consent differs from country to country, and sometimes in country it differs from male to male sex or opposite [00:39:30] sex. I would argue, as a representative of Human Rights Watch that we think it should be the same age. There should not be a distinction between homosexual acts or heterosexual acts in terms of the age of consent. But I also think that it should be allowed to countries to states to societies to define that [00:40:00] in their context. It might be 14 and somewhere else in the world. It might be 15 or 16. I don't have any strong feelings about that, so I don't see. But I cannot really look into the future. But I don't see that there is a world, a global movement, trying to have the same age, minimum age, for instance, everywhere in each country. The same. I don't know. I don't have any strong feelings about that about pornography. [00:40:30] It's it's unrelated to marriage equality, of course. Um, but as a former judge and lawyer criminal lawyer, I would say that sometimes the people who make pornography are really making use of Children, for instance, or people in disability disabled people or people in a very vulnerable situation simply to make profits by selling the pornography. [00:41:00] And so I think it's very important to look at what is behind the what is the intention of pornography. And so I can understand that there are societies where they want to criminalise, uh, pornography, or at least penalise it and are quite strict with it. It all depends, of course, on on on the subject on what is happening. But I'm not a proponent of saying everything should be [00:41:30] free and because that might endanger people in a vulnerable situation. Now, you had a third question, which I forgot. Yes, pardon. OK, good. Then I tried to give you an answer and the best I could do, um, I just heard said about the celebrants [00:42:00] that they can choose to marry uh, people from the same sex. Um, and it's kind of been over light footed, but I don't I know that in the Netherlands, it's a huge discussion and has been and still is going on. I think about celebrants who refuse to marriage. Yeah, there is a different system, so it's a little bit different, difficult to compare. But in the Netherlands we have, uh, celebrants who are employees of the state, and each municipality has those celebrants. [00:42:30] And, um, they are obliged, of course, to conduct marriages. When we introduced the same sex marriage bill, there were a few religious celebrants, but they are state employees, and they said when we started to do this job, there was no marriage equality, and we have religious objections against this. So we would like to have an exemption. And so we said, OK for those people who [00:43:00] are already celebrants, they can have an exemption and they can say, OK, I don't want to conduct a a same sex marriage, but for all new people that the state would hire, we would say, Of course, everybody who is an employee of the state has to execute the law. So there is a very small group of people who still do not conduct same sex marriages. The question is, [00:43:30] is this a problem in society? And actually, in those 11 years, it happened only twice that a couple really wanted to be married by a celebrant who said, but I don't want to conduct your marriage. So it is a little weird that when you get married that you choose a celebrant who is uncomfortable with it. Because mostly when you prepare your marriage, you go to the municipality and you have a conversation. And it happens that if a celebrant [00:44:00] is not comfortable with same sex couples, he would say, Or she would say, I'm not available, but my colleague is, And so then you have your conversation with a colleague, so it's a very principled discussion, but in reality it's not really a problem. And the problem will go away because no new celebrants are hired by the state who before they are hired, say well, but we don't want to execute same sex marriages. [00:44:30] I have a question, Um, have any of the churches or other religions in the Netherlands, um, made room in there to do the marriages in their sanctuaries? Well, I remember that in the beginning, there was no church or denomination who said Yes. We want to have, [00:45:00] uh, same sex marriages in our church, But, uh, during the years, uh, several of them, um, did so and are very active, actually, in promoting that. For instance, I've attended several, um, marriages, Um, in the old Catholic Church. So that's not the Roman Catholic Church, But the old Catholic Church and, um, they even have priests who are openly gay, um, and are married [00:45:30] themselves or in a in a gay relationship openly. So there have been and I don't know the terms in English, but in Dutch, we have different denominations which are very open and comfortable, like your congregation with LGBT people. And they are married in church where also opposite sex couples get married. Maybe it's time to listen to the author [00:46:00] of the bill. Louisa. See that Louisa is writing down a lot of notes. So she has some very interesting stuff to tell us. I guess. Yes. So, ladies and gentlemen, it's my honour to introduce a wonderful member of Parliament, somebody who I really admire and who inspired me during this week. Um, the fabulous Louisa Wall. [00:46:30] Uh uh. I want to acknowledge, uh, my parliamentary colleague, the Honourable, who has travelled up from the Waikato, uh, to be with us today. I want to acknowledge Clay, and I particularly want to acknowledge you, uh, as of Saint Matthew's in the city. Um, I want to acknowledge Glenn Cary, who's not here. [00:47:00] Uh, who has been, I think an amazing, uh, advocate for, uh, not only, uh, LGBTI rights, but also the rights of any marginalised group in our society. And it's, um it's wonderful to have had Boris, uh, share his time with us. Um, Boris is an amazing man, and, um uh, I think he's really understated. Uh, his qualification. So, uh, as a as a man who studied law, [00:47:30] uh, and then became a judge and then entered Parliament and is now working at Human Rights Watch International. His whole career has been built on fighting for the rights of our community. And I'd like to thank you, Boris. And I know Boris, uh, if he was in New Zealand would probably be called Sir Boris Dietrich because he was honoured by, uh, Queen Beatrice, uh, the monarch of, uh, of, uh, the Netherlands for his work, [00:48:00] Uh, for the people of not only the Netherlands, but now the world. So, Boris, I really appreciate, um, the context that you've shared with us in terms of the evolution of marriage equality, because actually uh, we are in a process of evolution. Um, and my contribution really, um is about, um, a bill, Another bill that I could have submitted. Um and I do want to acknowledge that yesterday we were at Auckland Law School. [00:48:30] Uh, and, um, the convenor of the session that Boris took at Auckland Law School was Justice Ted Thomas and Ted Thomas. I believe in 1998 was an incredibly brave man. Uh, because in the quilter decision, uh, he basically said that there is discrimination in the law and we need to sort it out. Um, so for those of you who don't know just a quick history because we haven't really talked about the fundamental [00:49:00] first principle, uh, which is homosexual law reform? So in 1986 when New Zealand as a country decriminalised homosexuality, uh, Boris, that process took 12 years. It was first begun in New Zealand in 1974 by Vin Young, who was a member of the National party. Uh, but it took 12 years before New Zealand changed, uh, its crimes act and no, and made homosexuality no longer a crime for men. So what? We have to remember in this [00:49:30] whole discourse is it's never been illegal, uh, for women, uh, to practise homosexuality. Because apparently Queen Victoria didn't think two women could have sex, but, um, actually, we all know that we can. Oh, yes. What? And, um, and so it the the evolution of in terms of our own history in in New Zealand started in 86. And at that time, we know we wanted to extend, um, in terms of our Human Rights Act, Uh, under [00:50:00] section 21 1 of the grounds you can't discriminate, uh, on is sexual orientation. Now, that took us, uh, another. What was it? Seven years of my maths is right, because it didn't happen in New Zealand until 1993. And then, um, 10 years post homosexual law reform. So in 1995 3 lesbian couples went to the local the local registrar because they had we'd had 10 years of homosexuals being able to live open, honest lives. It was no longer a crime. [00:50:30] And so three lesbian couples tried to get a marriage licence. Uh, that marriage licence was denied, which led to the quilter decision. Now, in 1998 when that decision came out, uh, the government, um, was basically, uh, was exposed to them, that there was an anomaly in the in the law, and our response at that time was to create civil unions. And I think what's really important in the progression is that we actually look at, [00:51:00] uh, where we wanted to go, which ultimately was marriage equality. But to get there, we had to have civil unions. And, um, I do have some statistics, everybody, because we have 9429 registered celebrants in New Zealand, of which there are two types. You have independent celebrants, and people who want to be celebrants have to apply. And, um, they have to, uh then through a registration process, be, uh, registered as celebrants. And [00:51:30] then we have organisational celebrants. So each of the major denominations in lists of the ministers in, uh, to internal affairs, Um, but the interesting thing in terms of the, um because we don't have two types of, uh, marriages and, uh, New Zealand, Boris, we basically, um, the state issues a licence. Um, to a couple that wants to marry, you have to pay 100 and $22. 60. And then, essentially, with your licence, you find somebody who wants to marry [00:52:00] you, and it's either an independent celebrant or it's a organisational celebrant. But most of the weddings that are performed in New Zealand and on average there's about 20,000. 70% of those marriages are performed by independent celebrants. Only 30% of marriages performed in New Zealand are performed in a religious context. So, in fact, most people who are marrying today don't marry in a church they marry, uh, at on a beach they marry in a garden, [00:52:30] which is what my brother did and in fact, the last marriage I went to, which was my partner, Pru's niece. They married at Tarango Zoo. So the reality of today is a lot of the discussions we're having and the difference between civil and religious marriage. People are actually choosing, uh, because they have the ability to choose a celebrant and to and to choose the context of that marriage for themselves. So I think that um yeah, there's a bit of fallacy about [00:53:00] the number of people that are demanding for churches to marry them in the first place and the other context in New Zealand. That is that unfortunately, we're having, on average, uh, about 9000 divorces a year. So most of the opposite sex couples that are marrying actually are ending up divorcing. Um, we haven't got the statistics. I was just checking, actually, because we on average, we're having about 300 civil unions a year. Uh, 25% [00:53:30] of opposite sex couples we have about, um, just working out about 30% from people who come from overseas. But I don't know at the moment what the rates of divorce are within the context of civil union, but from my understanding, there isn't a lot of divorce within that context. So if we want to look at how, uh, people of the same sex marrying is going to affect the whole institution [00:54:00] of marriage, In fact, I think the statistics will prove that the institution of marriage practised by he, uh um, opposite sex. New Zealanders is already, uh, bringing the institution into disrepute. And in fact, it might be non heterosexual New Zealanders that will bring the institution back to what it is all about, which is commitment family. Um, and it is about finding the your partner, your life, partner. Now, I've had a civil union. Uh, I've found my life partner, [00:54:30] but I've had more than one partner in my life. I've had I've had two others, but at no time in those relationships did I ever think about formalising my relationship. Now, when I did, I had a civil union. And so for me, it is for life. And I'm sure for many people who take the ultimate step to formalise their relationship, we all do it with the intention of it being for life. What I, um, wanted to contribute, um, as well to the discussion tonight was, [00:55:00] um when I was drafting the bill, there was another proposition put forward, um, and that was to define a person. So in the marriage act, only people can get married. And so I thought about defining a person A person is a person, regardless of their sex, sexual orientation or gender identity. So what that would have meant was that actually what we would have been discussing was our homosexuals people. And let's get to the [00:55:30] That's the crux of the issue that there are people of religious faith who believe that homosexuals, uh, don't deserve to live. That's the reality. And in fact, that's the reality of a bill that is before the Ugandan parliament. It's a private members bill. It's called the anti homosexuality Bill. Uh, it's a members bill that initially proposed to kill homosexuals because homosexuals aren't people. And actually, that's I think, [00:56:00] at the heart of a lot of the opposition, uh, to any bill that looks at equality is that fundamentally within religious institutions, people still harbour. And I think that actually was talked about today at the select Committee, uh, that homosexuals aren't people. And so we're not human beings. We don't deserve the same rights and privileges as of other citizens. Well, we've had that debate and discussion in New Zealand. We had that [00:56:30] in 1986 and I know a lot of you are thinking that's ridiculous. But I actually think that for a lot of the, uh, the, um, religious community who oppose, and I want to acknowledge that there's a lot of in the religious community like Glenn like Clay. Uh, like Margaret, Maman and many others. Ian. Um, but there are, um other people who fundamentally still don't believe in the first. The first principle, uh, that homosexuality is a normal, uh, disposition [00:57:00] that in fact, uh, God made all of us. And I can understand why God has to continue to make homosexuals for people not to realise that he's not he or she or aren't making a mistake, that actually we exist because we're meant to. And so, um, the discussions that we're having uh, yeah, I think fundamentally, uh, are about issues to do with that. And I think they are also the issues that other our new New Zealanders, for [00:57:30] example, who come from, uh, have the heritage identities either in the Pacific or other parts of the world, where fundamentally homosexuality is still unacceptable. And in fact, that the biggest problem we have in the Pacific because in Samoa and Tonga, homosexuality is still a crime. And actually, Boris would be able to talk, uh, about that a bit more because that's, uh, a major focus of his work. We have 100 and 93 countries who are member states of the United Nations, and of those 76 countries [00:58:00] still decriminalise homosexuality. And so that's um, I think, uh, a base battle that we're still having to confront. Uh, and the other issue that's starting to emerge globally, uh is that countries like Uganda who were colonised by the British. A lot of the laws that we have in our countries were imported by the British, And so there's still a lot of laws around sodomy, for example, that were British laws that have remained and so now have an independent [00:58:30] country, uh, in Uganda. Um, their representatives are elected by a democratic process, but they have laws on the statute book that actually are about are about British, uh, laws, Uh, from a different era. They, um, are going to be debating the anti homosexuality bill, Uh, either later this or be next week now, but it's on the order paper. Um, but one of the interesting developments is that, um, there have been religious groups [00:59:00] based in the United States that have lost the battle in the United States and are losing it. And I think the three referenda that Boris, uh, talked about earlier, and and actually what we have to remember about the referenda that happened was the referendum question was was, uh do you agree to, uh, the state of Maine issuing marriage licences to same sex couples? So, in fact, it wasn't about Do you support gay marriage? It was Do you agree to the state issuing a marriage [00:59:30] licence, which is exactly the, uh, the the arguments that we're having here in New Zealand? Um, So what's happened, though, in places like Uganda is that they've said that homosexuality is not a part of the Ugandan culture. And so the colonisation of those people, uh, who were colonised by a colony or by superpowers like, um, the UK. Like, um, we were, um They've now come to a point where [01:00:00] because this phenomenon is really a Western society driven phenomenon around marriage equality, uh, that they now see countries like the UK or the US saying to Uganda, you can't create this anti homosexuality bill. Is the West telling them what to do? Is the West um now trying to, uh, implement spent their value system on them and now saying that homosexuality never existed, uh, in Uganda. [01:00:30] And so a lot of the indigenous culture is being suppressed. Uh, which is incredibly fascinating when you consider, uh, that they just like we had, um, have in New Zealand. And we had, uh we have and and a lot of our stories we have, uh, expressions of that. And in fact, uh, who's a leading Maori academic has written a book about it, uh, had a our lover. [01:01:00] And so there are lots of myths and legends that we are revitalising, uh, within our indigenous culture. But the world is at a really interesting place. Uh, when places like Uganda can say, uh, that in fact, the West is trying trying to, uh, tell them what to do because they're saying to them that, um that that, uh, discriminating against homosexual, uh, citizens is not a good thing. So anyway, it's just been quite [01:01:30] interesting. Um, now, where we're at with the bill is that, uh we had an overwhelming number of submissions, and I think the final analysis might be close to 30,000 submissions. On the bill, we had 10,160 submissions through the marriage equality website. Uh, what that's meant for the Select committee is that they have made a decision whether we like it or not, that any submission that either came through the Marriage Equality [01:02:00] website or the Protect Marriage website. They are considering as a form submission. And I know that some people are going to be really upset about it. But the select committee are going to be reporting back to Parliament on the 28th of February. And so they are hearing as many submissions as they can. But they had to make a decision about what was formed. And so if you've seen a submission through, uh, that website, then it's highly unlikely, um, for [01:02:30] you to be heard. And I know that many people wanted to be heard, but the committee is committed to hearing as many people as possible. And so because they've made that decision, it means that, um I'm not sure of the total number of, um, submissions they will hear. Uh, but today they were in Wellington. I'm not sitting on the select committee. Um, I've chosen to stand outside of the process. I know that a number of other MP S who have bills choose to sit on the select committee. [01:03:00] Um, but when Boris and I went into the select committee room this morning, there was somebody, uh talking specifically about me and saying that if marriage was so fundamental, then why am I not going to get married if the marriage legislation goes through? And anyway, this isn't about me personally. And so, um, I've decided I won't sit on those, Um, and on those select committee hearings, but because of that, I actually can't have access to any information as and I will attest to only [01:03:30] the select committee have access to the submissions to the programme and all that sort of thing. So a lot of people have asked When are they going to come to Auckland? I can't tell you at the moment, but I'm going to try and find out. And they definitely will come to Auckland. Um, so I know the select committee will be hearing right up until, um, Parliament rises, uh, just before Christmas, And I know that they're going to come back, um, mid January. So if any of you have made a submission, then, [01:04:00] um, please contact the clerk of the Government administration Select Committee. If you haven't been, uh, contacted. Uh, because they will be trying to, um, set appointments for people to be heard. Uh, now So if any of you particularly want to be heard and you haven't been contacted and you've made a submission, and then that's what I recommend you do. Um but I'm happy to take questions as well. Um, Clay, thank you. Um, just thank you all for being here. Um, I think you're here because, [01:04:30] like, uh, Boris and I, you're passionate about marriage equality, but fundamentally, uh, you're passionate about human rights and equality and non-discrimination because the question that you asked, um, the young gentleman at the back about, um if we gave all the same rights, um, of civil Union to, um, of married couples to civil union couples. Would that be enough? And, um, I don't believe it is because as citizens of the country, [01:05:00] we are entitled to all the institutions, uh, that the state has and to limit the ability of anybody to make a choice, which is essentially what this bill will allow, uh is discrimination and is it tolerable in a modern democratic society to discriminate against any of our citizens? And that's what I've said to them. You can actually correct all the legislation around civil unions to make sure that civil unions, uh, couples can adopt, um, and [01:05:30] everything else, But fundamentally, a discrimination would still exist. And is it tolerable? And do we have different types of citizenship? That was the other question that I asked. Have you got a question? And I thank you. Thank you, Boris. And my question is, given the overwhelming, uh, parliamentary support for the bill. Do you anticipate further refinements to your bill [01:06:00] to broaden the parliamentary support when it goes through the third reading stage? Uh, it's a really good question. Um, what I've been really clear about from, um, the start of this conversation that we're having is that we want to, um, eliminate all forms of discrimination in our society. But at the same time, we have to recognise the the rights that people have to believe in their religion. So freedom of religion versus freedom from discrimination. [01:06:30] Now, one of the things that's come out, um is that possibly, uh, there is an obligation on a celebrant to marry same sex couples if the bill goes through, because the argument now is that you will be performing a public function and so as a public and in terms of a public good or servant? Uh, service. You wouldn't then be able to, uh, make the decision not to Because, uh you will be There will be a conflict [01:07:00] between the Human Rights Act and the Bill of Rights Act. So what I've basically said all along is that I don't want ministers or celebrants to go to jail. I don't want them to do anything that they don't want to. So one of the principles of this is about choice. And so I want to uphold the the the choice that celebrates and ministers have to marry whoever they want, for whatever reason. And they don't have to disclose what that reason is. And so if the bill needs to be [01:07:30] enhanced to ensure, uh, that ministers and celebrants are protected, then I've said to the select committee to the public to religious leaders. Then I'm happy for that to happen. I think that there are adequate protections under section 29 of the marriage act, which says that you're authorised, but not obliged. But there are other people who have different opinions. And so if the select committee decide that we need to further protect, uh, ministers, celebrants [01:08:00] uh, religious, uh, denominations from ever being forced to do something that they don't want to. Uh then, of course, I'm happy for that to happen, and that's what the select committee process is all about. And, um, I'm not proposing any amendments, but if that through that process that there are, uh, then I welcome it because it was certainly my intention right from the beginning, uh, to make sure that ministers have a choice and they that they're not obliged. [01:08:30] I clarify on this, um, I'm an anomaly. I am registered as a organisational celebrant. And I'm, as far as I know, the only stipendiary clergy who's also a civil union celebrant. So the Anglican Church in New Zealand, uh, will spend years trying to decide whether or not they're going to permit me to do marriages. But [01:09:00] as a civil union celebrant I am could be protected by from the church's wrath and allowed, uh, So are they still going to be called civil Union celebrates, or are they just gonna be called celebrates? Uh, at will, uh, will I be protected? Um, yes, you will, because we're not affecting the civil union act at all. And In fact, um, we have 537 [01:09:30] registered civil union celebrants. So we're still going to need civil union celebrants because the demand is there, Uh, not only currently from, uh, homosexual or non heterosexual couples, but heterosexual couples who don't want the marriage institution. They prefer the Civil Union one, so that will remain as it is. Um, And then what we will have is, um, marriage celebrants who will, uh, I guess, end up [01:10:00] by definition becoming on another list of celebrants who will choose, uh, to marry homosexual non heterosexual couples. And I know, for example, uh, that the Anglican Church is going through a process, and it's two years away. Your commission, which is being chaired by such, um, But what I know, um, about the Presbyterian Church, for example, is that when the General Assembly met, um, a month ago now they made a decision [01:10:30] not to support marriage equality. Uh, so a remit was passed that as a an an assembly, Uh, as a religious denomination, they do not support marriage equality. But what they did was to, uh, allow the ministers to make that choice for themselves. So I believe people like Margaret, uh, at Saint Andrews on the terrace. Uh, will also choose, uh, to solemnise a non heterosexual [01:11:00] marriages. So there will be, I believe, a religious marriage celebrants who will be willing to perform, uh, marriages for non heterosexual couples. And I think, as Boris said in the beginning, there were none. Uh, and then over time, uh, they have become more and more, and so for me, we're we're in a space of evolution. Uh, and so I'm not sure what your the reason I became a civil union celebrant [01:11:30] was so I could do the equivalent of him wedding in church. OK, so, uh, if there's going to be a third time No, I don't believe there'll be a third kind. I think there will be civil union celebrants and marriage celebrants. But because marriage celebrants aren't obliged, I think there will be a subgroup of marriage celebrants who are religious, uh, who will choose to perform, uh, marriages for non heterosexual couples. Thank you. Um, and I believe [01:12:00] that will also happen in the independent celebrant, um, area, because there's 1700 independent celebrants, and so some will choose, and some won't. But I think they'll end up being, You know, the people that people know are willing and able and and And that's the other thing about it. I can't understand the argument, Uh, for a couple wanting to force a celebrant or a minister to marry them because a marriage [01:12:30] is a celebration, why would you want somebody to marry you? Who doesn't fundamentally believe in your union? It's It's actually a ridiculous proposition. Unless somebody really wanted to make a point. But then it kind of undermines, uh, bringing your family and friends together in the first place. And I don't know anyone who'd do it just to do it to prove a point. Um, so yes. Sorry. Thank you. But, um, [01:13:00] it would be hard. You don't want to kind of shop around for a celebrant, you know? So how would you know? Well, I mean, on that list, would that be? And it will. You left around people? Yeah. I mean, in the reality when pro and I got married, we had a Maori woman celebrant because it fits with who We had a media. Um, So we got somebody who who we knew, and we also knew that there would be, um, now in our ceremony. [01:13:30] So, actually, you know, when you go through the list, I think that through your community networks, you will know of the people, uh, that are that are the most appropriate for you. Um, but you're right. Um um there will be, uh, some people who don't and they will have to ring. And I guess it will be through a process of elimination. Uh, but I think that, um, yeah, there will be a sub list if that makes sense. Louisa, I agree with you that, um the evidence [01:14:00] is mounting that heterosexual people are bringing the institution of marriage into disrepute, um, in divorce and so on. So I wonder if you might consider drafting a new bill in the spirit of New Zealand leading the rest of the world. And that marriage should be for people of the same gender and that heterosexuals need to have a civil union. Well, the interesting Well, [01:14:30] the interesting discussion, um, in New Zealand was in 2004. I mean, civil unions were created to specifically address the issue of, um, same sex couples being able to marry. But we didn't limit it just to non heterosexual New Zealanders. And the reason we couldn't is we have a Bill of Rights Act, and our legislation can't discriminate. So, in fact, we open that institution to all New Zealanders. And I think that's the difference in New Zealand to other places [01:15:00] that create civil unions to specifically address the issue about non heterosexual couples being able to have a, uh, have a civil partnership. And I think is that that that was different for you, Boris. Is civil unions open to everybody in the Netherlands. And so I think, for the same reason, I mean, why would we create a specific institution for a specific group in the population when we believe in equality and non-discrimination It just [01:15:30] I know. But I took it seriously. OK? Yeah. You do pay me. Hi, Louisa. Um, on behalf of myself and, um, my gay and lesbian friends, um, I'd like to thank you for submitting the bill. You're absolute rock star in everybody's eyes. In that respect, um, I have the pleasure of listening to a lot of, um, late night talkback radio. As you can imagine, uh, things can get, especially [01:16:00] when the topic of gay marriage and things like that come up, Um, things get quite heated. Um, one reoccurring, um, sort of thing that that tends to come up is the effect that this will have on Children. I just want to know what your sort of position is. Um, like, what? What? What do you think about the detractors who the argument against gay marriage is that it's going to affect adversely affect Children or Children, and the partner is gonna It has [01:16:30] more to do with the adoption. But it's, um, like, Oh, no, that's a good point because, um, because the simplicity of the bill actually means that once you, um, become married, you will have the privilege of being able to to jointly adopt, um, and the most recent, um, evidence from, uh A, which is the assisted reproductive technologies. Um, group is that, um, and people like Jan Pryor who was the previous families commissioner? Um, the the international evidence [01:17:00] is actually really clear that Children who grow up in same sex families aren't adversely affected because the most important factor in family fun is about family functioning, not family form. And so people who argue from that position do so without the evidence to support them. And it's very much based on, um, it's it's discrimination and all those other things. I don't want to go into them, but But basically, the evidence [01:17:30] is becoming more and more clear. And certainly the New Zealand evidence is really clear. But is that Children need people who love support care and have good attachments to them. So having a mother and a father actually isn't the most important thing for Children to grow and develop. And so, um, I just say, Look at the evidence. I mean around all of this, it's about the evidence. So it's the science around it. Yeah, to [01:18:00] to both of you. Um, I don't really have a question, but I do have something I want to say to each of you. Um, first of all, I'd just like to observe that I was actually quite pleased to hear about you being stuck in the traffic. Um, not just because it gave you a chance to see this beautiful place where we live. But I just had the thought that if both of you went by some act of serendipity, it would just put back the [01:18:30] cause of human rights. Two centuries in one go. Um, like I'm sitting here tonight and in geographical terms, I'm not very far from the small town in the Coromandel where I spent my childhood and teenage years. Um, but sitting here hearing this, sitting here in the presence of you too, it's just an extraordinary distance from where I was five decades ago. [01:19:00] Um, I was heavily involved in the homosexual law reform in the late seventies and through into the eighties. And the vitriol, the hostility, the hatred that was just up there in the lights at that time was just terrible. And it's been one of the things that struck me about this campaign, that it's not there to the same extent in the public [01:19:30] arena. Now I don't for a moment pretend that each of you are not experiencing that you you will have had it obviously in in the Netherlands and Lewis or I'm sure you're getting it as well because you're the figureheads for these things. So essentially, why I've got the microphone is just to acknowledge each of you and what what you personally are doing, um, your humanity um, and Lesa, I'm aware of just the grace [01:20:00] that you have been, um, managing this campaign. It's just it's wonderful to be part of. And it's just wonderful to think that this is happening in our land at this time. Right? Well, we've, uh, surpass the time that we designated, um, But I suppose if they were one last burning question for either Boris or Luis, they [01:20:30] would entertain it. See? None. I would like you to thank Boris and Louisa for coming here and during the traffic and, uh, informing us brilliantly. Thank you. I believe if you'd like a cup of the light in the kitchen just went on. So, uh, head [01:21:00] over that direction. Thank you for being here. I appreciate it.

IRN: 255
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_ursula_bethell.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004069
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089363
TITLE: Ursula Bethell
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1870s; Alison Laurie; Christchurch; Gay Line Wellington Trust; Queer History 101; Rule Foundation; Ursula Bethell; arts; lesbian; transcript online; writing
DATE: 12 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison talks about the New Zealand poet Ursula Bethell.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi, I'm Doctor Alison Laurie. I was the Gender and Women's Studies programme director at Victoria University of Wellington here in New Zealand for many years. I'm a writer, oral historian and lesbian and gay activist. Today I'm going to be looking at the poet Mary Ursula Bethel, who lived, uh, between 18 74 and 1945. And I'm going to be looking at her relationship with, uh if pollen Henrietta Dorothea. If Pollen, who was five years younger, she lived between [00:00:30] 18 79 and 1934 and at Ursula's, uh, reactions after the death of which were very sad and tragic, and also with her later, uh, relationship with, uh, some other women. The relationship between Ursula Bethel and the woman she called her consort lasted for over 30 years. They lived as expatriates for many years [00:01:00] and didn't return to live in New Zealand until they were in their forties and when they were able to establish an independent and private domestic life. Bessel's wealth created an idyllic context for the relationship, and their domestic and creative life was protected by her class position in the affluent Christchurch suburb of Kashmir, Bessel wrote Most of her poetry during the period of her relationship with Poland, describing their home, garden and life together. And she was [00:01:30] devastated by Poland's death. The relationship has been presented by some biographers as platonic and maternal, and it's interesting about this because Bessel herself sometimes used the term maternal to explain her feelings. However, from the early 20th century there was an influential homosexual maternal discourse, explaining, uh, lesbianism, and the well educated and travelled Bessel must have been familiar with this material. [00:02:00] Bethel's expression maternal constituent then may function similarly to expressions like Spinster, old Maid, blue stocking and Lady Husband and other ways that some earlier women may have referred to their really important romantic, passionate and sexual relationships with other women. Ursula Bessel was the first child of Isabelle and Richard Bessel. She was born in Surrey, England, in 18 [00:02:30] 74. The family returned to New Zealand the following year, and they lived at Nelson and then at where their father, Richard, died in 18 82 and the family were left moderately wealthy. She attended Christchurch Girls High School and was then educated overseas, uh, at Miss Sales School in Oxford, England, and then at a Swiss school in Lake Geneva. She returned to New Zealand at the age of 18 in 18 92 and did social work in the Christchurch Aan diocese [00:03:00] until his second trip to England in 18 95 to study painting in Geneva and music in Dresden. Uh, this is interesting because Dresden has a lot of associations with women going there to study. It's also, uh, it also figures as a place with, uh, later a strong, uh, branch of the Institute for Sexual Science set up by Magnus Hirschfeld. And it's the city where the first transgender [00:03:30] operation was performed, uh, in the early part of the 20th century. So it's interesting that she was there. Clearly, uh, there were a number of communities there which, uh, could, uh, be a greater investigation. Anyway, she moves back to London, where she joins the Grey Ladies and Anglican women's community, and that's where she meets Effie Pollen in 19 05 when she's 31 and Pollen is 26. When Poland [00:04:00] returned to New Zealand, Bessel followed, and, uh, from 1910, she lived with her mother in Saint Albans, Christchurch, continuing work in the parish and she goes back to London for wartime work between 1914 to 18, and the two women settle back in Christchurch from 1919, uh, where she purchases rise cottage at Western Terrace on the cashmere hills. Uh, they live at Rise Cottage until Pollen's death in 1934 [00:04:30] when Bethel moves back to Webb Street in Christchurch, which is one of the family properties, and she dies in 1945 she's buried in the Bethel family grave at If Pollen is buried at Kroy Cemetery with the Pollen family. If he was the daughter of Doctor Henry Pollen from Ireland and Kathleen Burke from Napier, she had one younger sister, and the family had lived in Gisborne, where if he was born, [00:05:00] uh, until they moved to Wellington, where Doctor Pollen established his medical practise and his residence at, uh, street in a house, which has been moved now to the uh corner of B Street and Willow Street and which is today a restaurant and has had a number of existence as quite an attractive house. If his mother died, Uh, in 18 94 and Doctor Pollen died during the influenza epidemic in 1918. They were buried in the family [00:05:30] plot at, and that was where if he was then subsequently buried after her death from a brain haemorrhage aged only 55 in 1934 and despite their 30 year relationship, there seemed to have been family expectations that each would be buried in their respective family plots. Um, if he and Ursula had met in 19 05, when if he had become involved with Ursula and had begun to live with the [00:06:00] Bethel family in their subsequent life. Living together at their home and rice cottage, Bethel, uh, calls pollen her little raven. In a poem called Grace, she writes, I have a little raven who brings me my dinner. Her dress is a raven. Her tres is a raven. She brings me my dinner, but not by a book. She feeds me. She scolds me. She scolds me. She feeds me. I'm a hungry old sinner. She brings me my dinner. She cooks it in the kitchen beside a cookery book. [00:06:30] Little Raven was a famously lively racing pony of the 18 nineties, and perhaps Bell's pet name for pollen was based on this characteristic. The activities expressed in the poem suggest energy and liveliness, the hungry old sinner, a reference to a stereotypical New Zealand masculinity. Scolded by the consort in the poem Discipline. In this poem, Bessel writes, I said, I will go into the garden and consider roses. I will. I [00:07:00] will observe the deployment of their petals and compare one variety with another. But I was made to sit down and scrape potatoes. The morning's rose buds passed by unattended while I sat bound to monotonous kitchen industry. How be at the heart of my consort was exhilarated and for virtuous renunciation, I received praise. The taste of the potatoes was satisfactory, with a spread of fresh mint, dairy butter and very young green peas. If pollen seems [00:07:30] to have taken a practical and cheerful approach to life, Uh, and certainly seems to have known how to manage Ursula, who seems to have been rather more temperamental, Bethel wrote, My darling announced one day that as for her, she couldn't see anything in life, which consists of doing what you didn't want to do and doing without what you require. And she just didn't agree with creation. And this seems to me to be a comment on, UH, lesbianism and relationships [00:08:00] between women. Pollen may have been influenced by romantic evangelicalism and other forms of radical Christian thinking that did not regard any loving relationship as sinful. Possibly Bessel had held similar views with their religious ideas and harmony with their relationship. This comment on what you require suggests they might have held modern ideas on health and sexuality and thought that they were perfectly entitled to have such a relationship. However, though they might have [00:08:30] been positive about their relationship in private, they were, uh, quite careful in public while guarding their privacy. They did invite friends to visit, including homosexual men. Uh, the bisexual artist toss. Williston was a friend and, uh, also the wealthy homosexual poet. Charles, Uh, Brash was a friend, and, uh, Walt Darcy Cresswell, uh, visited and various other, uh, people. So [00:09:00] they they were not isolated, despite the private nature of their relationship. And, uh, certainly some of Ursula Bethel's letters to Rodney Kennedy, um, imply more communication and discussion of same sex relationships. His these letters are in the Hocken Library in Dunedin. After if he died, pollen is grief stricken. It happened very suddenly. [00:09:30] It was a few days after Bethel's 60th birthday, Pollen complained of severe headaches. She went to bed, and she died. Three weeks later. The distraught Bessel wrote openly of her grief for pollen and letters and in the six memorial poems composed on the anniversaries of Pollen's death. These poems were not intended for publication, though she sent copies to friends, and they were not published in five years after her own death. The first memorial poem was written in October 1935 where she wrote, The green has [00:10:00] Come Back The spring Green, the new Green Darling, the young green upon the field, willows and the gorse on the wild hills was never so yellow. Together together past years we have looked on the scene. You were laughter my liking and frolic My last one. I must assemble and smile Still, for your sake. Now that I know how springtime is heartbreak now you have left me to look upon all that is lovely Alone. As the second anniversary of Poland's death approach, [00:10:30] Bessel wrote to Rodney Kennedy, uh, that the loneliness closed round me again, to which I'm going accustomed and only sometimes dare to think of the years when everything was shared. I am not proud, Rodney. Of all the sadness of looking back, I think it is limiting God because it is as good as saying that his resources have run out, that he can't do as much again that something uniquely beautiful has perished. I don't really hold with that, but it does seem as if this darkness was something I have to endure. [00:11:00] She thought, too, that that it was very sad setting my things alone. She could not go on in a muddle and that her lost friend would rather have me found in pleasing surroundings, so I shall have to go on with it to please her. In the second memorial poem November 1936 she wrote that she tried to brighten up the Web Street house. Today I trimmed my lonely dwelling place with flowers. Memories asked garlands. I see you, darling, dispose handed your bright Bunches in that happy home of ours because the years to months [00:11:30] diminish days to hours and love is stronger than deaths. Anger. I have a dawn today alone, my brief abiding place with flowers. At the third anniversary, she wrote to Rodney Kennedy, the utter devotion and love of an exquisite person was squandered daily hourly on me, adding that for these three years I have been waiting to know what to do with this desolation. The first task was to go on living without tenderness, without joy, without fun, without sharing, needed by no one, and going deeper into [00:12:00] the bitter knowledge of how much more I might have given. She warned Kennedy that if one offers everything to God, then no know what you are doing, because if God takes it, you are left in great darkness and dread. Deciding to remain at home for this anniversary, she wrote to him, Perhaps I will just stay put now that my impulse is to get away for race week that week that she lay dying, her third memorial poem, written in November 1937 she's writing about the Webb Street Garden where she's living, she [00:12:30] mourns, left. With all this, I lack what made it mine. For the fourth anniversary of Poland's death, she visited the pollen family grave at Cory Cemetery, where she had previously been with who's now also, of course, buried there. In November 38 she wrote Dearest. These four years I had been consenting to live onwards alone, and she explained in a letter to Kennedy that though they did not visit the pollen family grave often they was meant to go back. Now the thought of going there without the companion will lose. [00:13:00] Lose the desolation. I have no superstitious feelings about cemeteries, but it will be something to do on the eighth of November, when she was caught away to go out and put a bunch of flowers beside her name. The fifth poem, November 39 is written at the seaside town an hour from Christchurch on Banks Peninsula. And this one explains once again, my darling, it has come the time you died and on this quiet harbour once again, I look return I now to join a casual throng, no more rounding alone, a queen [00:13:30] of the sea scalloped track. Shall I surprise to perceive, my dear, with Pace coming to meet me and with eager look of love and go companions. Nor may I ask to know such cherished company such tender love again. She wrote to Kennedy that there were many reminders in a where we used to come together, but it is so quiet and beautiful. It is healing. In the sixth and final poem, Spring 1940 written in Christchurch, he again mourned the coming of spring and the anniversary of Poland's death, asking [00:14:00] God to match spring with vision, spirit of beauty. Bring with your persuasive love to the inward eye awakening least looking on this life to count what time has taken. I cannot bear the pain. And, uh, she wrote to Holcroft soon after Poland's death that it has been a complete shattering of my life from her. I have had love, tenderness and understanding for 30 years, a close and happy companionship in this house [00:14:30] for 10 years. I shall not want another home on this planet. And later she, uh she does develop, uh, friendships with other women. She develops a strong friendship with a woman. Kathleen Taylor. Uh, she meets her in 1941 when she's 66 and Taylor is in her early twenties, and this relationship may have been platonic, though her letters to Kathleen [00:15:00] Taylor are passionate and loving, and significantly, she does not write any further despairing memorial poems about if pollen after she meets Kathleen Taylor. She may have thought that God had managed to do as much again when Taylor came to live with her at Webb Street. However, she encourages, uh, Kathleen Taylor to marry, and, uh, she does she marries, uh, Davies. Um, he is a curate. And it seems that she, [00:15:30] uh, totally supports this. She wrote to Taylor. It was curiously natural to have you about catcher. I felt it almost from the first and later that I'd venture to put it in my prayer, seeing that life was going on, that if it were possible, three things might come to me again love and poetry and a home. And then she adds how strangely and unexpectedly your dear little love came comparing it to my coming 37 years ago. Because before I knew her, I felt sorry [00:16:00] about her feeling lonely. Similarly, I didn't take you in at all in the first evening. I asked you to come again because Paul said you were lonely in your lodging and I asked him whether you would care to come the second time. I remember seeing that you were a very right minded, uh, young woman, and then I was charmed by by you being hungry like a boy. Bezel's attraction to Taylor's boyish and useful hunger. Maybe for food and maybe be referring to other physical needs suggests a maternal attraction. [00:16:30] Uh, and she does call, uh, her relationships, uh, maternal. And given the 40 year age difference, this relationship may not have been, particularly if at all, Sexual and because of her enduring love with Paul and Bethel, may well have regarded all subsequent physical relationships as faceless to her memory. Um, a letter written to Taylor when she was on her honeymoon with Davies says she and she writes [00:17:00] in this. Not that it's everything this two sided sexuality. I think my prose shows that pretty clearly, don't you? There was peace and happiness for all the blemishes at Rise cottage and fun. Such fun and you don't have fun without peace. Lots of anxiety, too. And there in perhaps, the maternal constituent was having its day. So all of these letters and poems can be interpreted as strongly being influenced by Bethel's [00:17:30] love her her passionate attachments. Firstly, to Effie, Poland, later Kathleen Taylor. Uh, clearly it influences her poetry. Clearly, it's highly significant in her life, and I think to ignore these relationships will try to dismiss them as simple. Ordinary friendships which were celibate is to ignore the depth of the love, the depth of the emotion and the way in which she based her life, Uh, on the importance of these friendships [00:18:00] with other women.

IRN: 243
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_parker_hulme_murder.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004068
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089362
TITLE: Parker and Hulme murder case
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1950s; Alison Laurie; Christchurch; Gay Line Wellington Trust; Heavenly Creatures (1994); Juliet Hulme; Pauline Parker; Peter Jackson; Queer History 101; Rule Foundation; courts; crime; law; transcript online
DATE: 12 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison talks about the Parker and Hulme murder case from 1954, where the two teenage friends murdered Parker's mother.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi, I'm Doctor Alison Laurie. I was the General Women's Studies Programme director at Victoria University of Wellington. Uh, here in New Zealand for many years, Uh, I'm a writer, oral historian, and he's been a gay activist. Today. I'm going to be looking at the Parker and Hume murder case of 1954. And the reason I'm going to be looking at that is because it's one of the first times that a discussion of lesbian [00:00:30] relationships, uh, takes place in the New Zealand media, and it takes place in a very negative context of murder, Uh, and of young girls out of control. And it has a big impact on how that generation of lesbians and their parents and their schools began to think about relationships between girls and women. Now, it's not the first time that lesbian relationships are mentioned [00:01:00] in the media. There's another case which happens in the thirties, which is the Freda Stark case, and the Mario uh, There's also been other mentions of women leading rebellious lives, especially women who have crossed, dressed, masqueraded as men, the famous case of Amy Bock and and other cases, too. But this case is one happening in the Postwar period, and it's been brought to great attention [00:01:30] because of film. Uh, was made about it, uh, after, uh, my colleague and I had published our book on it. Uh, and that's a film by Peter Jackson, Um, heavenly creatures and, uh, as well as that. There have been a lot of mentions in the media regularly as well as that, uh, one of the girls, Um, Juliet Hume. Uh, her identity was revealed after the [00:02:00] film was released. And, uh, she is Anne Perry, the crime writer. And she has now made a film of or appeared in a film where she's talked a bit about this case and other matters, too in relation, particularly to her writing. So what happens in this case is that, uh, Juliet Hume, who is the daughter of hire, and Henry Hume, [00:02:30] who come to New Zealand, though she is actually sent here first they come to New Zealand. He comes to take up the position as rector which today would be the vice chancellor of Canterbury University College, which today is, uh, Canterbury University. They were colleges at that time within the University of New Zealand and prior to. Then they had a professor taking the role of Rector, uh, and rotating it. It was then decided in the post war period [00:03:00] that they needed to have somebody doing that job full time. So Henry Hume applied for that job and came out here. He seemed to have very good qualifications. But as our research showed, actually, he his his career had been, uh, the opposite of what you might expect. He'd when other university scientists had gone to work for the government during the period of the war. That was when he'd been working in the university. He then went to work for the government when they [00:03:30] returned to university work. So his his career hadn't been as as as good as, perhaps might have been hoped when he got to Canterbury. He, uh he hadn't been there long before. The professors actually were not too pleased with the way he was turning out. He was quite arrogant. He didn't want to take their advice when he met on the university Senate and often voted against things that they wanted. For example, they wanted a school [00:04:00] of forestry established at at, uh at Canterbury, and he voted against that? Because in his opinion, um, it shouldn't be there. Hilda Hume, Uh, she was also not particularly popular. She founded the She was one of the founders of marriage guidance. And, uh, she was on the board of, uh, the, uh, Christchurch Girls High School. Uh, but she was the sort of woman who, uh, they called a man's woman. She was often quite dismissive [00:04:30] of other women and not a popular person, either. So they were very English people, very upper class English people in Christchurch, which was quite a small city at that time. And, uh, they weren't particularly popular. Uh, and then we have Pauline Parker. She was the daughter of, um, Herbert Reaper, who was a fishmonger, and Nora Parker, who, uh, was also a English migrant. And these [00:05:00] are both working class people. And Herbert had been previously married to a woman older than him. And he had two sons in that marriage. And he then ran off with, uh with and they went to Christchurch and pretended to be married and then had another family. And the other family were There were there were oddities about it. The first child was a blue baby and died in the 1st 24 hours after birth because of a blood condition. Then the next child was a normal [00:05:30] child. And then there's Pauline, who is a daughter but has a strange injury, which is never explained, uh, which gives her osteomyelitis of her leg. Uh, and she has that injury in the first two years of life, never properly explained how she got it. And then 10 years later they have another child down syndrome child called Rosemary, who's lives at home for a couple of years and then is an in in an institution. So these are two. They come from two very [00:06:00] different backgrounds. Pauline and Juliet. They meet at Christchurch Girls High School in 1953 and form a very close friendship, a friendship that's so close that it's remarked upon by the teachers. Um, it's considered, perhaps to be an unhealthy friendship, and the different class backgrounds of the two girls are quite significant in this regard that Pauline likes to go and stay with Juliet and, uh, what [00:06:30] basically is almost like a mansion, which was the residence of the rector, um, with extensive grounds. There at is these days. That's the University staff club. Um, and, uh, meanwhile, Pauline just lives over the fence from the high school in, uh, in a very modest home where her mother takes in Borders. And Pauline does a lot of housework in her diaries, which have [00:07:00] been depicted as terrible, terrible documents, but which in fact are full of very ordinary kinds of references, Uh, particularly to housework. And you wonder why she's doing so much past work until you realise that the mother takes in four Borders on full board and that this girl is the one that's being required to do all this kind of work so clearly it's not a very good home background. Clearly, there's a difficult relationship between Pauline and her mother. Then, um, the [00:07:30] Hume's marriage breaks up. Uh, Hilda Hume, uh, begins an affair with a man that she's counselled, um, Walter Perry and she actually moves him into the mansion. And, uh, this whole thing falls to pieces and they're going to divorce. So the Humes are leaving the country. In fact, the professors have by this stage, forced him Henry to resign because his it really hasn't worked out. This is by the stage. We're in 1954. His [00:08:00] appointment hasn't worked out and they want him to go. So he's been forced to resign. He's returning to England. Uh, the two Children, Juliet and her brother Jonathan, are going to be sailing off to South Africa, where they're going to be living with an aunt. And meanwhile, Hilda is going to going to be going off with Walter Perry. So that's what they're all doing. According to Pauline's diaries, there are various conversations that take place that she might be able to go with Juliet that somehow she could become [00:08:30] part of this family. It's pretty unrealistic. Then Pauline begins to see the big obstacle to her being able to be with Juliet as her mother. And so they she plans a murder. Uh, they take the mother. They take an AA Parker for a walk in the in, in Victoria Park and Christchurch, they batter Pauline batters who were the brick of stalking. Um, initially, there there is a number of statements that the two girls, uh, make, but but eventually [00:09:00] they both take responsibility for having participated in this. They're both charged with murder. The first degree they're both found guilty. They served five years in prison at Her Majesty's pleasure. They were released in 1959. Juliet leaves the country immediately and, uh goes to England. And, uh, Pauline is on probation for another five years, after which she also leaves they both are given new identities by the Justice Department. They're both given, uh, educational opportunities [00:09:30] in prison because there's a very liberal prison regime at that time and justice system which seeks to rehabilitate them. However, this crime is depicted whether or not they are actually having a lesbian relationship. Uh, and what we might mean by a lesbian relationship is unclear. But certainly it's the way that both the defence and the prosecution portray the relationship. The defence says they're crazy, and, uh, they are. They've got [00:10:00] a joint insanity known as one of the symptoms of this is lesbianism. Uh, when we interviewed the defence council, uh, Brian McClelland, he said, Well, the problem was they both confessed to it, and the only defence we had was insanity. But how could we find the two of them insane? And then this chap, Reginald Medico, comes along with this wonderful idea that they could have fully. So we went with that. So that's a cynical defence lawyer, uh, [00:10:30] using that kind of theory. So that was what was argued there. Meanwhile, the prosecution psychiatrist said, No, they're not mad. They're bad. They're dirty minded little girls was one of the quotes that they said the diaries were extensively quoted from from both sides to either prove that they were mad or that they were bad. Um, what isn't really considered is that this is a domestic murder. It comes out of what is clearly quite a dysfunctional household. It [00:11:00] comes out of what is clearly a very difficult relationship between Poly and her mother and that is not explored in the context of the court at all. Uh, it might well be the case that Juliet, in fact, blundered into somebody else's domestic murder, which might well have happened with or without her. She might in fact, not have participated as fully in this situation as she admit, as she confessed to having done, uh, in fact, maybe she should have been charged as an accessory after the fact. None of those [00:11:30] kinds of much more interesting legal questions, uh, have ever been raised in any, uh, discussions. Newspaper articles, uh, or and things about, uh, about this case, The Heavenly Creatures movie. Claims to be, uh, based on the diaries. It's largely a matter of Invention by Peter Jackson and, uh, his partner, Fran Walsh. Um, it's, uh, it's It's a it's a dramatisation, which, uh, Reginald Medley [00:12:00] Cott would particularly have liked because it depicts them a particularly poor lines, having fantasies, Plasticine figures that she sees moving around and none of that Is there any evidence whatsoever? For and in fact, the verdict of the court was that they were completely sane, which is why they found them guilty. They were lucky to be found guilty because had they been found insane, not guilty, they would have probably spent the rest of their lives incarcerated in a in a psychiatric hospital. And [00:12:30] probably at that time since, uh, uh, the psychiatric institutions were very keen to give our greatest novelist, Janet frame a prefrontal lobotomy, which she only escaped because she won a prize for literature. These two girls would probably have had would have been given that kind of surgery or lots of shock treatment. Anyway, it was much better for them in the prison system where an enlightened regime gave them the opportunities to continue their lives. So we will have to say that, [00:13:00] uh, most of most of what has been written about this case has been, uh, not not really very simplistic. Hasn't really looked at the more interesting aspects of it at all in our work. We were interested in the impact of the case, and we found that it had very negative effect on many, uh, girls. Many girls were became very frightened to have their relationships. Parents separated girls. Uh, in fact, one woman we talked [00:13:30] to her mother sent her to a psychiatrist. Uh, older lesbian couples, uh, were also affected by this, uh, people were very afraid that if they had a a lesbian relationship, perhaps that meant they were mad. Uh, it certainly had a very bad effect on how, uh, lesbians thought about themselves whether whether or not women were willing to, uh, uh, have same sex relationships and certainly how other people thought about, uh, lesbians [00:14:00] and women in same sex relationships. So there's been a very important case in the history of lesbianism in New Zealand.

IRN: 247
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_meeting_places.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004067
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089361
TITLE: Meeting places
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1940s; Alison Laurie; Club 41; Dorian Society; Gay Line Wellington Trust; KG Club (Auckland); Queer History 101; Royal Oak Hotel; Rule Foundation; social; transcript online; venues
DATE: 12 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison talks about the different types of places queer communities met.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi. I'm Doctor Alison Laurie. I was the Gender and Women's Studies programme director at Victoria University of Wellington here in New Zealand. Uh, for many years, I'm a writer or a historian and Lisbon and gay activist. Today I'm going to be looking at meeting places for people interested in relationships with their own sex and how these developed in New Zealand. Uh, though first, I'll look a bit at how some of these meeting places developed. Uh, overseas. [00:00:30] Uh, we know that by the late 18th century, there were what we know. What became known as Molly Houses in London, where, uh, in the late 18th century, relatively upper class men would wear women's clothes and sit about in particular coffee houses, uh, various societies for the improvement of morals uh, were concerned about these and to try to get them closed down. So there is some [00:01:00] evidence about that. And, uh, historians like Jeffrey Weeks have written about that. Uh, we also know that there appear to have been for men, uh, public areas where they could meet. And there are reports of this through the 19th century and, of course, through the 20th century in cities like Paris, where there'd be particular parks, open air places and ultimately, men's toilets where men would meet to [00:01:30] make connections. What's interesting about that is there's been some research done in Newcastle in New South Wales that, uh certainly in the mid 20th century, moving toward the later 20th century. Uh, those kinds of meeting places. The beats were not so much only for men to meet and have sex. But really, they were social scenes that quite often married men would meet there. They'd go out at night for a walk with the dog. They'd meet there, they'd have a cigarette [00:02:00] together, they'd exchange gossip. And, of course, some sexual contact did go on, but that they were just as much social scenes as they were anything else. This kind of possibility has never been open really to women, because women have not had the same access to public spaces as men, uh, women in public spaces on their own, or even in even with a couple of women. There's always been a suspicion that they were there to do sex work, and certainly we have some suggestions of [00:02:30] a connection between sex work and same sexual practises. among women from reports from Paris from the early part of the 19th century that there appeared to have been restaurants attached to brothels where women who may well have been in same sexual relationships congregated and met There. Now, of course, for the upper classes, there's always been other kinds of possibilities. And we have reports again from Paris of salons like that of Natalie Barney of other [00:03:00] kinds of, uh, high, uh, highly ranking nightclubs and things like that, with reports of, uh, that women met one another there and obviously men did as well. And the research that's been done on meeting places in New York, uh, has focused, especially that of Joe Nestle focused on, uh, the kinds of lesbian bars that emerged there in the 19 fifties, uh, and similarly in places like California and so on. [00:03:30] So what was the situation in New Zealand? Unfortunately, we lack, uh, a a lot of information, uh, because much of the research is still to be done. What we can say is that the situation here was always very different to many other parts of the world. For a start, we had six o'clock closing in the pubs and that came in after 1918. We were very lucky not to get Prohibition. Uh, but we did get very restrictive licencing practises and pubs [00:04:00] were, uh they had to shut at six o'clock. They were not open on Sundays. They, uh, were not allowed to serve any food or have any entertainment because that would encourage drinking. The public bars did not allow women to be in them at all. Women were only allowed in hotels in the ladies and escorts bars, and that was supposedly to prevent prostitution and drinks. Cost a higher price in the ladies and escorts bars, which were sometimes known as the cats bar. And a lot [00:04:30] of hotels didn't even have a cat's bar. And, um, people of a certain age can often remember sitting in the car park of in the car with their mothers and siblings when their father might bring a A shandy out to their mother and soft drinks for the Children while he went in and had a beer in the public bar. So this is a different situation very, very different social situation to that that you would have even had in England at the time or other parts of the world. And clearly, in such a situation, [00:05:00] there are not, uh, any kinds of dedicated lesbian or gay bars. There were, however, for men, bars, public bars, Uh, in Wellington, the the tavern, uh, in Littleton, the British hotel where men could gather. Uh, but it was much more difficult for women to find a A bar where they could, where they could meet. And even when you did, you had to be out at six o'clock. So meeting places in New Zealand as they emerged [00:05:30] in the, uh in the post war period, uh, were quite often coffee bars in Wellington. The Tate Tate, uh, was very popular. That was in Herbert Street. Uh, and in Auckland, the and, uh, these were places where everybody knew that the camp card would go. And the term that was used at that time is camp. Uh, the terms gay and gay comes in later. Uh, the term lesbian wasn't, although it was understood [00:06:00] it was pejorative, and people would not have used that of themselves. People knew the term homosexual, But once again, that was a worrying term. So among the communities themselves, terms used was the term camp, so people would meet in the coffee bars. They they would. They were also, and and other so social. Historians, writing on other topics have said New Zealand, in fact, didn't stop at six o'clock. That's when it opened up because in fact, there were lots and lots of private parties, and there were many camp parties. There were people whose houses [00:06:30] really were often used as the party house and where everybody would would go for the Friday and Saturday night party. Sometimes those parties would go on all weekend. Um, so there was a good deal of socialising in that kind of way. Um, and people who would go to those parties, uh can we say, Were they all camp? Well, in those times, uh, in the 19 fifties and also as we moved through the 19 sixties, uh, before the community has become [00:07:00] more politicised, a lot of people would go to the parties who certainly didn't identify themselves as camp. So far as the men were concerned, these men were trained. They were men who who might do it or might not. Nobody was. Nobody was asked about their sexual identity and you'd also have among the women. Uh, I remember several female couples where who would Who would explain that one of them was camp and the other was not. And if their relationship ended, she'd [00:07:30] be going back to men, and then the relationship would end and she'd have another woman girlfriend. But she still would never identify herself as camp, and that was not uncommon. So in a way, it's a kind of model that there's one camp and then the other one isn't camp. Uh, and then you have people who who constantly go to camp parties, but they're not camp. So the question of identity isn't as important as the as the fact that people participate in in a community. Uh, and there they are at these parties. Now, I've [00:08:00] been asked, uh, by people living elsewhere. How come these people could have parties? How come they had backyards? How come they had houses? And that's an interesting New Zealand question, too, because because in the in the aftermath of World War Two, we had a very good state housing policy so that we have, uh, we have houses, uh, for rent because, uh, heterosexual families have quite often managed to acquire a state house, so there are houses for rent that [00:08:30] groups of camp people could rent. There's also more flats becoming available in the city areas because families are wanting to move to the suburbs. So in that sense we were lucky to have houses with backyards and a higher standard of living than would have been the case in some other countries, and certainly in in some other cities. Anyway. Our ways of socialising are uniquely New Zealand, and they are also informed tremendously [00:09:00] by those palaces of queer culture that sail into our harbours every well, every certainly every week and sometimes more than, uh, once a week. And these are the boats that went between New Zealand and Europe, in particular British boats, um, and but also ships from Holland, uh, and other countries and a lot of the people working on those boats. The men working on those boats, especially the stewards, were queer, and they brought into New Zealand, [00:09:30] uh, all kinds of information. They brought books, magazines, which were you couldn't have imported legally, uh, they brought gossip about what was going on in the rest of the world. they brought for the straight community. There's reports about how they brought old spice, which was, you know, after shave. Unknown here. Really? Until then, um, they brought the latest fashions like teddy boy fashions. They brought records, that kind of thing. And during the war, we'd had impulses from America. [00:10:00] So in this period, say, from 1940 from then on you get very strong impulses coming in, uh, giving people a different impression. Different ideas about how you might be queer, how your communities might be formed. Uh, and that sort of thing, as I say the for women, it's harder because you don't have access to a public life on the streets in quite that way. Uh, for men, there's always that possibility of the of the beats and, uh, something which [00:10:30] is more anonymous. In, uh, 1967 we get 10 o'clock closing and the, uh, opening up of the pubs, uh, to provide entertainment food to make them make them more welcoming. For women, that's thought to be very important. So within a short space of time, you get huge social changes. Certainly, by the time you get to the 19 eighties, you have a scene of nightclubs and night places serving alcohol with entertainment, which, uh, which is just [00:11:00] the same as you'd find in many other parts of the world. The first formal club is the Dorian Club, which starts here in 1962. Now, this is not licenced, so these kinds of clubs had to operate under the law. The first Lesbian club, uh, is the KG Club in Auckland that was started by a group of Maori women, and KG stood for Kanga Happy road, which is where it was situated, the first premises, and also for camp girls spelled with a K Camp Girls Club, Um, [00:11:30] and that also operated under the law. And the first, uh, club for in Wellington is Club 41 which was started by lesbians from she the Sisters for Homophobic Equality, started by four lesbians from, uh from that organisation. And the premises were purchased from Carmen, who ran many venues in Wellington, including Carmen's balcony with drag shows, and Carmen's Coffee Lounge, where people could meet and pick up those of the same sex. Um, [00:12:00] the way in which these clubs operated illegally was that you could people bought tickets That was one way to do it, to sell alcohol because people hadn't actually bought alcohol, they bought a ticket, and then they could exchange the ticket for a drink. But it's still under the radar. And there were raids because of selling alcohol without a licence and and problems. All of this changes once we move into a different kind of regulatory environment, and we start getting other kinds of lesbian and gay [00:12:30] clubs far too numerous to talk about here. But we had things like the Victoria Club here in Wellington. Then we had various lesbian clubs, uh, situated here and there. And that's true also in cities like Christchurch and Auckland, not so much in smaller areas. So it's interesting that both Palmerston North and Nate have always had a fair share of venues where people could meet as we move now into speeding through the 19 nineties and through into the 21st century. We [00:13:00] can see now as we move into the second decade of the 21st century that a good deal of the ways in which people meet are through the Internet, and it interests me that talking to young people, especially young gay men expressed some, uh, shock and horror about an earlier time when people men would have been meeting each other on the beat and how scary that must have been and a frightening thing to do. But in many respects, meeting unknown people on the Internet, uh, for [00:13:30] people of my generation can also seem quite frightening because you don't know who those people are necessarily. Or, uh and you certainly need to be careful about meeting them in person because, uh, without finding out more about them and certainly, uh, organisations like Pink sofa would recommend that that's what people do, that they find out more. Take a friend along if you're actually going to meet someone so clearly, the ways of meeting people as we move further into the 21st century become more and more linked to, [00:14:00] uh, the electronic means that we have at hand. And the other thing that one might say about that is that is in a way, we return to perhaps some of those more broadly defined, uh uh, ways of meeting. As in those early camp parties that people don't necessarily need to consistently define themselves as homosexual or as gay or or or as lesbian in order to set up a same sex acquaintance on the Internet. That it's there's much more opportunity for people to explore different [00:14:30] ideas or desires that might occur to them from time to time, and that we may be moving into something which is much more broadly defined than our communities of the, uh, late, uh, 20th century. It may have been, and we really can't predict what the meeting places of the future will be like or how people might define themselves if they use those meeting places.

IRN: 253
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_lesbian_organising.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004066
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089360
TITLE: Lesbian organising
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1970s; Alison Laurie; Gay Line Wellington Trust; Manawatu Lesbian and Gay Rights Association (MALGRA); Queer History 101; Rule Foundation; activism; lesbian; organisation; social; transcript online
DATE: 12 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison talks about early lesbian organising in New Zealand.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi. I'm Doctor Alison Laurie. I was the General Women's Studies programme director at Victoria University of Wellington here in New Zealand for many years. I'm a writer, an oral historian and a lesbian and gay activist. Today I'm going to be looking at lesbian organising in New Zealand as distinct from gay organising. And this is a particularly interesting topic because the situation of women in New Zealand obviously is different from the situation of men and especially as we go back, [00:00:30] uh, into the earlier years looking through at the development of sex roles in the 19th century and so on, then how lesbians have organised is a topic of particular interest When we go back to looking at the gender relations between men and women, uh, pre contact and we look at the writings of somebody like whose, uh, writing has been brought to us by who [00:01:00] looked at, uh, that work in quite early on, Uh uh tells us that gender relations between men and women and Maori societies were fairly equal. Uh, obviously, these are class stratified societies, but women could own property. Uh, women had on every level, more or less the same rights as men did. Uh, and but then, with the introduction of European [00:01:30] law, then women become chattels. Uh, as according to the, uh, British law of the time on marriage, a woman and a man become one. And that one is the person that the husband and any earnings she has become his any, uh, property. She has become his and so on and that that's the case. Until about 18. 85 when you get the Married Women's Property Act and a reform [00:02:00] of that, however, some of those attitudes continue. And in fact, uh, we coming right through into the 19 seventies, we find that it was difficult for women to get access to credit without the signature of their husband or of of or of a man. It was difficult for women to open an account, even at a department store without, uh, a man being a signatory to that. So there were still these kinds of attitudes, uh, on and in fact, the campaign about rape and marriage. [00:02:30] Uh, rape and marriage was first made a crime in 1985. Uh, so that still harks back to the idea that a woman is, in fact, the property of the man. So the situation wasn't equal. Having said that, uh, New Zealand is the first country with, uh, where women vote. Uh, we successfully get that through in 18 93. We're the first entire country to have, uh, women voting in in Parliament. Uh, we're the first country where women could take degrees at [00:03:00] a university. That's from 18 77 at Auckland University College. Uh, Kate. Edgar. Uh, so all of these things are, uh, put us ahead in terms of gender relations, so it isn't that bad, but it isn't that good either. Uh, and there are a number of quite anomalous, uh, things that need to be considered. So the situation then for lesbians, uh, starts to become interesting. Apart from our early communities where women [00:03:30] are, particularly in the post war period, there are places to meet, uh, private parties. There are some hotel bars where women can meet. There are coffee bars where women can meet. So there are networks and there are other kinds of clubs or organisations. Um, church groups, sporting groups, where women can meet together. But we first start getting a period of organisation when with the arrival here of women's liberation, which starts from [00:04:00] the late uh, 19 sixties. And this is a worldwide explosion of political consciousness what is now regarded as second wave feminism, Though Dale Spender points out that in fact, there's always been a women's movement throughout the 20th century that we should. When we think of waves like first wave feminism and second wave feminism, we shouldn't assume that there's nothing in between, but just that it isn't peaking at quite that those same levels of energy certainly, [00:04:30] between first wave feminism, which roughly begins to dwindle in the 19 beginning of the 19 thirties. Probably, but certainly between then and the end of the 19 sixties early 19 seventies. We have a lot of very important things, like the campaign for Equal Pay, the marriage Guidance, uh, movement, family planning and things of this sort, which are all seeking to improve the position of women. Difference with women's separation is that it is the baby boom generation coming [00:05:00] of age in that period after World War Two, fueled with a great deal of energy who start to put all of this in motion, and there's a lot of writing communication becomes better, there's a lot of books start to come out and within a short space of time. Uh, the the we have women's separation branches, uh, throughout New Zealand, largely at first being centred on universities and very soon, uh, community groups and so on throughout the country [00:05:30] as well and high levels of energy. It's from that movement that we begin to see, uh, the emergence of lesbian groups, uh, and and eventually the emergence of lesbian feminism. The lesbian feminist groups, uh, move from, uh, lesbians who've been working, calling themselves Gay women working in Gay liberation together with men, uh, lesbians from the earlier network sporting networks and things of that kind. [00:06:00] And then lesbians in the women's abortion movement who begin to feel that their own interests aren't really being attended to, and that there is some lesbi among the heterosexual women. So these 33 groups come together, and we see the emergence of the first kinds of lesbian organising here in particular, uh, the Sisters for Homophobe Equality, which begins in Christchurch and with a branch in Wellington with the formation of uh, the gay feminist [00:06:30] Group in Auckland and with the emergence of various, UH, lesbian clubs like Club 41 in Wellington and the KG Club in Auckland and other kinds of groups. The thing about the early 19 seventies is that through both women's liberation gay liberation lesbian feminism, what we have is a period of extreme energy. When people talk about the 19 sixties, they're really talking about actually, [00:07:00] uh, the energy of the 19 seventies, because that's the period which, when everything comes really to a kind of peak, and it's difficult to explain to people who weren't involved at that time just how high energy this was, it was a belief that we could change the world, that it was possible to change society, that it could all happen. It would happen in our lifetimes that if people would easily see how important it was to remove the obstacles to equality, [00:07:30] to completely change the fundamentals of society. And I think that there have been periods like this in human history before. Certainly when we read some of the writings around the, uh, the events leading up to and during the French Revolution in the late 18th century, we can see some of that same kind of energy and in the words of people like Wordsworth, Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive? But to be young was very heaven. We can see that these kinds of periods have happened in human [00:08:00] history before with the belief that this is an era of change and it feeds upon itself. Because when you have a a mass movement, a lot of people coming together and with the with this kind of energy, this belief in ourselves and the feeling that it could all happen, then there is a very important movement. So a lot of things happen in the 19 seventies in terms of lesbian organising, and that starts to that continues on through the, uh, 19 eighties as well. Of course, there are a lot of [00:08:30] problems. You get, for example, conflicts between, uh, lesbians and straight feminists in In New in New Zealand, particularly at uh, which was an important meeting taking place there. And at the United Women's conventions taking place in 1977 and 1979. And after each of these even more lesbians began to organise separately, Uh, from 1978 several groups were formed in Wellington including a specific working class group, a Self-help therapy group [00:09:00] and the Lesbian Project, which focused on organising regular social events and raising funds to open a lesbian centre. Breathing space, a discussion and social group for women coming out as lesbians held regular fortnightly meetings during 1979 and 1980. The Wellington Lesbian Network formed following the 1979 United Women's Convention and that met at regular intervals and organised many political and social events and produced a newsletter. In November 1979 the First Lesbian Centre opened a room in [00:09:30] Street, and subsequently there was a second Lesbian Centre opening in, uh, Street. So at one time there were actually two. the Lesbian Liberation Week was held in October 1980 there was a campaign against the Wellington City Council, which had refused to carry advertisements for the Lesbian Centre on its buses. Um, and there were other in other centres. There were also forms of distinctive, uh, lesbian organising in smaller centres, lesbians often worked [00:10:00] in organisations together with feminists or with gay men, for mutual support in both political and social activities. For example, in the man gay Rights Association established in Palmerston North in 1977 which still continues as mal um, the man, uh gay, Lesbian and Gay Rights Association. And there were, uh, smaller organisations in places like Ashburton, Gisborne, Wanganui and the During the 19 eighties, [00:10:30] uh, lesbian groups and organisations grew in numbers and scope. Uh, as lesbian communities became more open and political activities became more organised and publications and services expanded. Lesbian phone lines were started on a regular basis in various cities in the 19 eighties, and these kinds of phone services have always been very important because of as women become aware of their emerging feelings for other women, it's important to have somewhere to phone and get information [00:11:00] and so on. Uh, in 1981 a Christchurch group established the Lesbian Line telephone service and in Dunedin in Timaru in 1984 and by 1990 there were services in Nelson Palmerston North, Timaru in Hamilton, as well as the four main centres. Lesbian radio broadcasting started in Wellington on access radio uh, in 1984 and that was followed by broadcast lesbian broadcasting in Auckland, Christchurch [00:11:30] and Dunedin. The Christchurch uh, programme sound women uh, was broadcast on planes. Radio FM in Dunedin, The student radio station was used, and radio has been an important way to disseminate information and ideas and to promote discussion through many sections of the lesbian communities. Uh, during the 19 eighties, several lesbian newsletters or magazines were produced. Circle continued being produced by which had been originally produced by the Sisters for [00:12:00] Homophobic Equality, which had become defunct by the 19 eighties. But we had behind enemy lines, uh, Dyke News from Auckland, Lesbian Lip and Wellington Glad Rag. And the only magazine continuing now, uh, is the newsletter which continues on into the 21st century from Auckland. The lesbian radio programme continues still, uh, in the second decade of the, uh, 21st century. And there are now a number of really important, uh, [00:12:30] sites on the Internet providing information, uh, Wellington Lesbians. And there is the, uh, Lila the, uh, lesbian library, which, uh, which provides information. And people can borrow DVD, S and magazines a whole lot of things of this kind. So the numbers of institutions and activities, and so on in the second decade of the 21st century are very important and too numerous to talk about. But it's interesting that that period of high energy really discontinues [00:13:00] after the end of homosexual law reform. And I think it's after that that the feeling that the world could be so dramatically changed begins to fade because we move into more difficult economic times when people withdraw their energies from working in these alternative movements, say, And so I don't think it's just a question of the ages of the people concerned. But I think people needed to lesbians needed to, um, be more careful about their economic future. They needed, perhaps to be more conformist [00:13:30] in some of the activities. And some of the more radical movements, uh, begin to decline after that sort of period. Uh, what the future will hold is difficult to know, because we have now large numbers of young women who would prefer not to identify themselves as lesbian. They would rather be identifying themselves as unidentified or use other terminology. Perhaps if the of Maori descent, uh, perhaps refer to themselves as bisexual and many now beginning to [00:14:00] think of themselves as as trans people. So things change and we don't really know what kinds of organising women. However, we understand what women are might be doing in the future. But it's interesting to reflect on our past and to see how much has been achieved when we compare our situation today with what the situation was like at the beginning of this period as we think about how women began to meet together from the 19 sixties and how they began to organise political [00:14:30] activities to make social change from the late 19 sixties and beginning of the 19 seventies.

IRN: 231
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_legal_background.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004065
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089359
TITLE: Legal background for LGBT communities
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: Alison Laurie; Gay Line Wellington Trust; Queer History 101; Rule Foundation; activism; courts; gay liberation movement; history; human rights; politics; transcript online
DATE: 12 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison talks about the legal background for queer communities in New Zealand.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi. I'm Doctor Alison Laurie. I was the General Women's Studies Programme director at Victoria University of Wellington. Uh, here in New Zealand for many years, I'm a writer and horror historian and a lesbian gay activist. Today, I'm going to be looking at the legal background relating to same sexuality in A in New Zealand. And considering many of the changes that happened, uh, through the years, [00:00:30] I'd like to start off by thinking about the situation before European contact. Um, Maori, the indigenous inhabitants of this country, uh, came here some hundreds of years ago. There's various discussions about that. Some people think it might have been 800 years ago. Other people think it could have been 1200 years ago. But whenever, um, Maori came, uh, in a series [00:01:00] of canoes, uh, known as WAKA, and settled in various parts of the country, instances of same sex relations in Maori culture Uh uh, interesting. It certainly appears that there were not really restrictions against that kind of behaviour. There were very strong restrictions in Maori culture about who could marry um, those kinds of questions of genealogy and what would be appropriate [00:01:30] there? Uh, so far as we know, and more research has been done on this topic by a number of prominent Maori scholars and quite a bit has been now written about it. So far as we know, relations between men or between women were reasonably well accepted in Maori society. Uh, some of the scholars have gone back to look at, uh, what possible terminology may have been used. And in the very famous story [00:02:00] of and which is usually interpreted as being a a heterosexual love story set in Rotorua, uh, there's a reference in that story which has been noted in which was noted independently by several Maori scholars to Tai, a Maori word meaning intimate companion of the same sex, and had an intimate companion. He had his, uh, whom he [00:02:30] was very, very close to. So that would imply that this was well accepted. That you would have someone like that. Of course, it wouldn't mean that you didn't marry you if you were, uh, particularly if you were highborn, you would have a responsibility to provide Children heirs to carry on the bloodline. But what you might do with your own sex because they couldn't be Children from that is probably not taken as taken particularly seriously or certainly not [00:03:00] seen as a threat to any kind of social order. Um, there are some early European records. Uh, based on this, um, one source is the, uh is a French source, uh, from who was a Frenchman on the ship, Uh, the card in 17. 72. And he observed, These natives are greatly given to embracing each other, but in their caresses, they display a most noticeable ferocity. [00:03:30] They're strangely fond of kissing each other, and this they do with great intensity. They're never weary of admiring our skins, especially their whiteness. They sucked the flesh with an astonishing greediness. So, um, there are a number of reports like this from, uh from European observers, which clearly would show that this was not at all unusual. Um, and there are other kinds of reports, particularly things in [00:04:00] song which suggest that through the 19th century, there's plenty of this kind of activity going on. And we also know that some Europeans, uh, were involved with Maori, in particular the Reverend William Yate, who worked for the Church Missionary society in the Bay of Islands. And he was uh, closely involved with a number of young Maori men. He, um he was reprimanded by the church, but, uh, and and that has been written about, uh, to [00:04:30] some extent, but he was not the only one. So what we can assume from that is that before the coming of European law and European attitudes toward same sexuality, there was a much, uh, more open, much more natural, uh uh, attitude of simple acceptance of this among, uh, among Maori. So the first people to come were whalers sailors. They came from various parts of Europe. [00:05:00] Um, And when we look at the mix of people coming into Southland, uh, and many of those people married or or at least had set up some kind of family unions with local people And we now know that there would have been people men, all men, um, from Holland, from Norway, from Denmark, aboriginal men from Australia, uh, Native American men from North America. Uh, a lot of groupings from [00:05:30] the whole world really were coming in and and and were involved in these kinds of different activities at the same time. A bit later, the missionaries began to come the first ones were the French. Uh, they came in the north. Uh then came the Church of England. And by the time we get to about 1800 the the Church Missionary Society is starting to get concerned about what it sees as lawlessness. Uh, a lot [00:06:00] of Europeans who aren't under any kind of control. They seem to be breaking the law a lot. There's a lot of drunkenness, uh, and so on. So they begin to talk about the fact that it would be a good idea if this country, uh, which now became known as New Zealand if this country were to, uh, be brought into the British Empire as a colony. And so that was discussed for some time and event that eventually [00:06:30] there was a treaty signed that's known as the Treaty of Waitangi, and that was signed in 18 40 it was signed between the British crown. And at that time, that was Queen Victoria and many of the Maori tribes, not all of them, but many of them, and probably British law applies from this time, it's clear that the British weren't totally certain of this because [00:07:00] in 18 58 they passed a law which is known as the um as the English laws act, uh, which states that all laws in force on the 14th of January 18 40 apply to New Zealand. So they may have thought that there could be some difficulty in being quite certain that all these laws would apply here. So once the law is applied, these laws included prohibitions against crimes known as buggery or sodomy, that [00:07:30] is to, say, sexual relations between males, for which the penalty was imprisonment from 10 years to life. And in fact, the death penalty for these acts had been abolished only in 18 36 in England. So that's four years before the treaty. The British law against, uh, same sexuality was in fact, put into force in 15 33 by Henry The eighth, uh, when he took over the church, [00:08:00] established the Church of England, and this is the first law on his books. And you might say, Well, what did Henry the eighth have against sexual relations between men? And it seems likely that he had nothing against it. It was just a very useful law to charge into the monasteries and on the pretext that they're committing a crime because they're having sex together. And, of course, everybody thought that's what monks and priests would be likely to be doing. Uh, and then you could take over the monastery and confiscate all their property, and that was, very, [00:08:30] um, enriching for the British throne so that law had been enforced right from then. So it's when we get to 18 36 the death penalty is removed. So that's the first change in all those years. And it's this law then, uh, from that time that applies in New Zealand and the offences against the person Act 18 67. That's the first New Zealand law which, uh, passed [00:09:00] actually here, which criminalises buggery, and it retains the punishment of imprisonment from 10 years to life. And then, in 18 93 the General Assembly passes the Criminal Code Act, which repeals that but retains the sections against buggery. Now, what's important about this is that this is based upon the English Laws Crimes Act of 18 85 which, uh, criminalised uh, sex [00:09:30] between men, uh, for which consent was no defence, and it's any kind of sexual relations. And that's the law, which, uh, Oscar Wilde is imprisoned for in England. So this law is it then gets passed here, and that's the one that continues. There are no laws prohibiting sex between women, and you could take several views about that. Um, one is that, uh, certainly for many centuries, because [00:10:00] of, um, sexist attitudes about men and women. It was thought that women couldn't really be having sex since women didn't have penises. There's no way that women could penetrate one another. So sexual relations don't happen between women. That's one school of thought. Another school of thought is who cares what women and Children do anyway, so long as you can control them economically. And certainly the other law that came to New Zealand was the, uh was the law, uh, regarding the position of women [00:10:30] which, based on a an opinion in the, uh, late 18th century, said that women were the property of their fathers and on marriage, the property of their husbands. So in a situation like that, it doesn't really matter what women do. So that's one thought about why the rules didn't apply to women. The other thought is that when the discussions were held in England in 18 85 revising the law to make it apply [00:11:00] in private and saying that consent was no defence. There was an attempt to criminalise lesbianism. Uh, it passed through the House of Commons but was rejected in the House of Lords by Lord dear, who stood up and made a very, uh, stirring speech and said that mentioning lesbianism in the law would be to bring it to the attention of women who've never heard of it, never dreamed of it, never thought of it, and that would be a very grave mischief. So the idea there is that [00:11:30] women are very suggestible and that if you mentioned it in the law, they might get the idea, and then they might go and do it. So that's the other opinion about why such a law was not passed here in other parts of the world. Uh, there was legislation against sex between women, especially in some of the states in the United States and other parts of Europe. So that wasn't a universal thought, but it wasn't criminalised in England, and it wasn't criminalised here. So after the [00:12:00] late 19th century, we move on into the early 20th century. There's another act in 19 08, and that reaffirms these sections of the criminal code and the kinds of punishments uh, that were that applied? Um, some of the punishments are pretty terrible. The 18 93 act, uh uh, punished buggery by life imprisonment, hard labour and flogging. Uh And then [00:12:30] it's not till 1941 that the punishment of flogging is removed from New Zealand law retaining life imprisonment. That's the 1941 Crimes amendment Act. And not till 1954 is the punishment of hard labour removed from the law, but it retains life imprisonment. Now, this country has followed what happened in Britain fairly closely. Although we became a Dominion [00:13:00] in the early 20th century, meaning that we had local self-government. Nonetheless, we retained the British crown and a certain kind of cultural cringe in terms of legislation and things of that kind. So what was very important was the wolfing uh, report which reported in 1957 to the British Parliament. Uh, the wolf committee was set up to look at prostitution and to look at homosexual behaviour, and [00:13:30] that committee recommended the decriminalisation of prostitution with some regulations around that. And it also recommended decriminalising private, consenting homosexual behaviour. And that's 1957. So that was known about here. And from then there are certain discussions about it, Um, but there's no real commitment to any kind of decriminalisation. Uh, and although, um, the Sexual Offences [00:14:00] Act of 1967 abolishes total prohibition of homosexual acts in England with an age of consent of 20 years, that doesn't, uh that that's not that discussion is not really held here. However. In 1961 the Crimes Act reduces penalties for homosexual acts. But it introduces lesbianism into the law by criminalising sexual relations between women over 21 and girls under 16. And you can say, Well, that's fair enough because it's, uh, it's abuse of minors. [00:14:30] But it's clearly a move that means that once you get some kind of recognition of lesbianism into the law, then you could play around with how you interpret that, Uh, by saying that consent is no defence. You can play around with those ages. And as we enter the 19 sixties, we are entering a decade where the first people of the baby boom generation born during the war are starting to come of age, and they are beginning to question, uh, many things. [00:15:00] Uh, so the whole question of homosexual law reform becomes part of those discussions as that decade continues, and I'll be talking about that later in another talk.

IRN: 237
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_law_reform.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004064
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089358
TITLE: Law reform in New Zealand
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1970s; Alison Laurie; Gay Liberation Front; Gay Line Wellington Trust; Gay Task Force; Heterosexuals Unafraid of Gays (HUG); Homosexual Law Reform Society; Human Rights Commission; Queer History 101; Rule Foundation; Wellington Gay Task Force; activism; gay liberation movement; hate speech; homophobia; homosexual law reform; human rights; politics; transcript online
DATE: 12 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison talks about homosexual law reform in New Zealand.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi. I'm Doctor Alison Laurie. I was the General Women's Studies Programme director at Victoria University of Wellington. Uh, here in New Zealand for many years. Uh, I'm a writer, oral historian, and he's been a gay activist. Today. I'm going to be looking at homosexual law reform in New Zealand and how this was achieved. The New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society was formed in 1967 and it was dedicated to urging [00:00:30] a change in the law regarding, uh, male homosexual acts. Uh, the society presented a petition to parliament urging homosexual law reform signed by 75 prominent people in 1968. And in 1974 the national member of Parliament for Egmont Ben Young put forward a private member's bill, uh, intending to amend the Crimes Act 1961 which proposed the decriminalisation [00:01:00] of private homosexual acts between consenting males over the age of 21 years following the proposed Wall Amendment by Labour member of Parliament for Rua Gerald Wall. Uh, the bill was defeated because Gerald Wall put forward an amendment which although it supported the decriminalisation, uh, it sought to criminalise all public comment made to persons under 20 which implied [00:01:30] that homosexuality was normal. So fortunately, the bill was defeated at its second reading in 1975 and the lesbian and gay organisations, which had formed as a result of gay liberation and lesbian feminism uh, from about 1972 very strongly campaigned against, uh against the bill because of that amendment. But that was the first attempt, [00:02:00] uh, that came about trying to create a legislative change in 1977. Something very important happened, Which was that the National Gay Rights Coalition of New Zealand. Uh, the NGRC, which was an umbrella organisation for lesbian and gay groups, formed and that was a coalition of groups. At one stage, there's something like about 33 groups. Um, the, uh, the NGRC puts out a, uh, news newspaper called the Pink Triangle, and [00:02:30] it's hugely influential and, uh, is very committed not only to legal change, but also into improving circumstances, creating social change and enabling lesbians and gay men to be out, uh, and to live, uh, live live their lives as they would like to do. The NGRC is very interested in the Human Rights Commission Act, which was passed in 1977 [00:03:00] and its included several grounds on which, uh, discrimination against people were outlawed. But it didn't include sexual orientation, and that was something which the NGRC became very interested in, uh, and remained so for a number of years. It's interesting that in 1978 the year after the NGRC forms, they support, uh, doctor Ian Scott, who stood in the Eden Electorate, Auckland as the Labour Party's first openly [00:03:30] gay candidate. Uh, he wasn't successful. He's not the first, uh, person who stood openly gay candidate standing for Parliament, however, because as early as 1975 Robin Duff had stood in the general election for the Values Party as the very first openly gay candidate. Neither of these candidates were at that stage successful. Now, in 1979 another Labour member of Parliament, Warren free, uh proposed amendments to the Crimes [00:04:00] Act and also trying to decriminalise male homosexual acts. He wanted an age of consent of 20 years, and this was immediately opposed by the National Gay Rights Coalition because of the unequal age of consent with heterosexual acts. So already we can see a great change in consciousness that it's not enough to have decriminalisation if it isn't equal. If, if it's if. If heterosexual sex acts are illegal at the age of 16, well, so should homosexual [00:04:30] acts be, we can't have a situation of inequality. It sends a bad message to society. The more conservative groups within the NGRC are rather alarmed about this. Some of the men in the Dorian Society are concerned about it. They'd much rather see decriminalisation at any at any age. But the British experience bothers people that, uh, that that went through with an unequal age of consent, and there hasn't been any movement in it. [00:05:00] So the whole younger generation certainly do not want to see an unequal age of consent. Warren Free proposed a new amendment in 1980 with an age of consent of 18, and that was again opposed by the NNGRC. And it was dropped. And that certainly created a split in the NGRC, which really starts to collapse after then because of conflicts that many many of the conservative groups really [00:05:30] think that 18 would have been fine. Um, and and, uh, they start to talk about the all or nothing brigade who torpedo any kind of legislative reform then in 1983 Fran Wilde, who has just entered Parliament. She's the Labour member of Parliament for Wellington. And she considers, uh, introducing a gender neutral private members Bill decriminalising male homosexual [00:06:00] acts. And this is the so called equality Bill. She doesn't proceed because lesbians strongly oppose any such legislation on the grounds that if something went wrong with the age of consent, then you'd end up with, uh, lesbians perhaps, uh, you know, between the ages of 18 and 20 or between whatever, um, finding themselves [00:06:30] criminalised and that it's too uncertain, uh, to consider that introducing a gender neutral act would be any kind of a good idea because too many things could go wrong. What's interesting about that is that lesbian groups lobby other women members of Parliament who immediately see that that would be a foolish idea. So they lobby Fran Wild, and that's dropped once again. This campaign does create ill feeling between men, particularly gay men in Auckland, who thought this [00:07:00] would be a good idea and, uh, the more radical, uh, gay men in Wellington who support the lesbian groups and thinking that that isn't the way to go. However, In 1984 Fran begins to have discussions with, uh, gay task force members in Wellington to discuss what kind of, uh what kind of act would be acceptable? Get a wide, uh, support for it. And, uh, there's a good deal of input into what, what what [00:07:30] this kind of bill would ought to look like. Uh, the Auckland Gay Task Force and the Christchurch Gay Task Force are formed in November 1984 and they, too, begin to have discussions with, um, with Fran Wilde. Uh, now the election of the Fourth Labour Government in 1984 which is when Fran comes to Parliament, uh, brought about the establishment of the Ministry of Women's Affairs. And prior to setting up this new ministry, the government [00:08:00] had held women's forums throughout the country, which lesbians attended, and MM. Many women were alarmed by the presence of busloads of Christian fundamentalist women who carried Bibles and copies of the national anthem, and who voted against abortion, lesbian rights and also against ratifying the United Nations Convention on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women Lesbians suggested to the gay task force that fundamentalists might campaign against [00:08:30] homosexual law reform. But most of the men thought that organising against abortion or women's equality didn't indicate that fundamentalists would necessarily campaign against homosexuality, and the gay task force really was not particularly well organised. Uh, at the time of the introduction of the bill, greater effort had been put into the shape of the bill. It was going to be part one to decriminalise all homosexual acts between consenting males in private with [00:09:00] an age of consent of 16 years and equal age of consent, and also part two to add sexual orientation as an amendment to the Human Rights Commission Act. The bill was drawn up by Wellington Gay Task Force activist and painter at a community meeting with Fran Wilde, and it was based on various draughts by the Auckland and Wellington groups. Friend thought the bill would have a greater chance of success if strict secrecy was observed, and she didn't think the bill should be publicised. [00:09:30] And she thought that it would just be a short parliamentary campaign, perhaps of about three months, uh, for what would be a private member's bill and the gay task force agreed to this, Uh, and in retrospect, it's difficult to know whether more damage was done because of the lack of preparation and involvement of groups throughout the country, or whether, if there had been an earlier organisation, the news of the bill might have reached the opponents which would [00:10:00] have enabled them to campaign against it. In retrospect, you can't really know that whatever the introduction of the bill on the eighth of March 1985 it was carried by 51 to 24 votes, but opposition to it was immediately mobilised by various members of parliament. Norm Jones, who is a national member for Invercargill. Jeff Bray Brook, a Labour member for Napier. Graham Lee, a national member for, and Alan War Bank Labour uh from Gisborne. [00:10:30] Before the first week had ended, these people had launched a nationwide petition against the bill with a fundamentalist Christian businessman, Sir Keith Hay, who claimed to be just a carpenter doing God's work, and Sir Peter Tate from Napier as chief chief petitioners. On March the 20th, the Salvation Army announced that it would take the petition door to door and this petition against homosexual law reform and [00:11:00] using very strong scaremongering tactics were circulated through schools workplaces, prisons, rest, homes and churches with stands being set up in the streets. And eventually a claimed 835,000 signatures against the bill were collected and the petition was presented to Parliament on the 24th of September 1985. And the campaign, uh, was really a very difficult one. It was very necessary. The [00:11:30] the gay task force and various, uh, gay and lesbian organisations fought very hard. Uh, we were starting late to get the organisation going. We organised street marches, we organised protests and, uh, town halls. We attended meetings of those against the bill and so forth. Um, we held pickets outside the Salvation Army. Um, we tried to create a campaign which, uh created a lot of laughter [00:12:00] because we felt that the situation was so stressful that unless you introduced certain laughter and, uh, things of that sort into it lighthearted things such as, for example, taking balloons on the marches and doing a lot of singing and making a lot of jokes that unless you did that, you could actually be getting into a situation where a street violence could have occurred. There might have been some uh, some bad clashes. And certainly I think that [00:12:30] that's a good model. Um, if you have that kind of opposition that are really nasty, very serious. And it gets to that kind of point, you have to be very careful as to how you determine what tactics you will use against them. Because if you get a mob against you, you're going to lose. So the best way is if you can mock your, uh, protagonist. And of course, we have in our communities in our lesbian and gay communities a strong tradition of humour, as have many [00:13:00] other oppressed communities. Jewish community, for example, have always used humour. So humour is one of the best tactics. We had a lot of comical songs that we sang things about ripping up petitions, uh, and that sort of thing, and it made it in. In many respects, a lot of those actions made people feel better about themselves. It was very good morally for our own communities, some people who were getting very depressed, especially if people, some gay and lesbian people had themselves signed the petition [00:13:30] because they didn't have an alternative when it was brought into the workplace. unless they wanted to immediately come out when the suggestion is Oh, well, unless you're a, you know, you'll sign this. So people did sign and then felt terrible about it. There were suicides. Uh, people were depressed. So it was good to have a campaign which raised people's morale as well as actually creating a better kind of public opinion that won a lot of, uh, public support. [00:14:00] And the other thing that was important were were the mistakes made by the people against the, uh against the bill. And that was that They brought in American advisors against the bill. Uh, and and they had something that looked a bit like the Nuremberg rally at Parliament, where they carried the petition up in boxes and they all sang the, uh, national anthem. And they actually brought, uh, John Swan and various people like this and paid them a lot of money to come from the United States [00:14:30] and advise them to do this And the average New Zealander, when they saw this happening on their television screens, thought God, we don't want anything to do with this. It looks like the Nuremberg rally, so that worked very much against them, which worked in our favour. The bill was considered by the Statutes Revision Select Committee, which, uh, received a lot of submissions. Uh, nearly 1000 submissions. And by October 1985 it, uh, reported back. And the second reading of the bill began, uh, starting from March 1986 [00:15:00] and it was eventually passed Part two of the bill was lost, uh, which was the human rights part. And that was good, that it was lost because so many, uh, amendments had been put forward to that. That it would apply, except for the police, except for teachers and so on that it wasn't worth having. So the good thing was, that part one of the bill was passed through all of its stages. Third reading, uh, was on on the ninth of July 1986. And finally on that date, the [00:15:30] homosexual law reform bill, part one decriminalising male homosexuality with an age of consent of 16 was passed by 49 to 44 votes, and almost all the national members of Parliament voted against the bill. With an exception of George Gere, who disagreed with the age of consent of 16 but said he thought change was inevitable and he crossed. He he voted for the bill, and on the 11th of July, the Homosexual Law Reform Act 1986 was signed into law by the governor general, and it came [00:16:00] into effect on the eighth of August, which ended, Uh, all those years of the criminalization of male homosexual acts in A in New Zealand.

IRN: 249
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_labels.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004063
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089357
TITLE: Labels
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: Alison Laurie; Gay Line Wellington Trust; Queer History 101; Rule Foundation; gay liberation movement; labels; stereotypes; takatāpui; transcript online
DATE: 11 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison talks about the various words and labels that have been used to describe queer communities in New Zealand.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi. I'm Doctor Alison Laurie. I was the Gender and Women's Studies programme director at Victoria University of Wellington here in New Zealand. Uh, for many years, I'm a writer or a historian and lesbian and gay activist. Today I'm going to be looking at labels and how people who have same sex relations have referred to themselves. Language is very important because until language exists, people can't name themselves or talk about their sexuality. [00:00:30] Uh, but then, on the other hand, that doesn't mean that they aren't doing doing it. Uh, but it's a question of at which stage does this become Verbalised? If we go back through the written records, we find that every society has had some kind of way of talking about same sexuality. Uh, among the Greeks, there are There are terms, Uh, but more generally, it was thought that, uh, certainly among men, [00:01:00] this was something that everybody would be doing. An older man with a younger man, Uh, a way of learning, uh, love between men. Very important. And on the battlefield, those kinds of things. The Greeks writing a lot about this model. And we know that, uh, from the Greeks to the Isle of Lesbos, where the poet Sao lived, that she wrote many of her poems to women, that she had a A university or school for women and that clearly [00:01:30] the poems express love between women. Interestingly, one of the legends about FO is that she eventually leaps to her death for love of a man. So once again, these kinds of ideas from the Greeks don't talk about exclusive same sex relationships. And clearly the Greek men were all expected to marry. Uh, but there is some view that their love for their wives is not as profound as their love for their comrades. Uh, so that's a model coming to us from them. [00:02:00] With some terminology. There's certainly, uh, views about, um, same sex love, uh, from Egypt. Uh, we have pharaohs, uh uh, and also from Rome, where kings did enter into what appear to be some sort of same sex union, perhaps marriage. Uh, so wherever we turn, we can see that there have been instances of same sexual love and relationships and that they have probably [00:02:30] been some sorts of terminology to refer to this. But it's difficult to make an argument that we're finding terminology, which, uh suggests unique special people are doing it, even though we do find terms like lesbian existing, going back many, many centuries and being understood. There isn't necessarily an idea that this was an exclusive sexual orientation, as we understand that in a modern term. And sodomite doesn't [00:03:00] necessarily carry that that view, either, any more than you might say that referring to someone as a burglar, uh, or stamp collector, uh, is everything about their identity or would suggest something that wouldn't change. So it's important, perhaps, to think about that sort of thing. As we move into the 19th century, we see the medicalization of the human body, the rise of the medical profession. They begin to train. [00:03:30] They begin to, uh, take over defining many things about the human state. Prior to then, uh, the understanding of human sexuality had been the province of the church. The church, certainly until the end of the Catholic period, took the view that everybody would be tempted to do any of these sexual sins or, in fact, any sin. Everybody would be tempted to masturbate. Everybody would be tempted to do, uh, sex with their own sex or sex out of wedlock with the other sex [00:04:00] and that people shouldn't do it. You would need to confess it and promise not to do it again. And even as we move into the Protestant period, we don't get much difference. In terms of that, it's all thought to be sin, and people shouldn't be doing it now. Once we pass through the Enlightenment, the church loses its position to make pronouncements about the human conditions. The rise of science, uh, is very important here, because science is that only science [00:04:30] can understand nature. We will, uh, we will and and it's. And if God is part of it, then it's God's intention that we should investigate these things and find out about them ourselves. So the enlightenment is very important. And it is that period from the late 18th century that gives rise to doctors and scientists in the 19th century, pronouncing on the human body. The first thing the doctors do is they they medicalize many aspects. For example, childbirth becomes something that midwives won't be [00:05:00] doing anymore. Doctors will be doing it, uh, things like menopause and, uh, and menstruation become diseases. Uh, they're very concerned about the fact they see that in fact, the whole female body is is a likely site of many diseases because it's so weird to have a uterus. Uh, so they begin to start talking about things like hysteria again, and they become very interested in sexuality and they almost take [00:05:30] Jeffy Weeks says. In many ways they take the views of the church, but they medicalize them. So they say, We've got this normal, uh, sexuality. And then we've got this abnormal sexuality. The first use of the term homosexual, uh, happens in 18 69 when Ben Kurt who? A doctor. Ben Kurt, who was neither a doctor. Nor was that his real name? Uh, he refers to homosexual. He makes the term up, and he refers to this in a pamphlet [00:06:00] where he's arguing for a change in the law and pressure against buggery and acts between men. Um, this term is then taken up and used by a number of people. Subsequently, there have been some earlier terms, uh, in use, but this is the one that becomes popular. And the first use of this term in English is in 18 92. The first use of heterosexual is not till quite a bit later. And in fact, bisexual is to is used for quite a while, uh, as [00:06:30] meaning an attraction to the other sex by meaning two sexes. So the original usage of all these terms is not quite as we as as we may have learned them, uh, later in the 20th century and so on. Um, lesbian stays, in common parlance, always being understood. And that's interesting. It's been used in pornography. Uh, and it continues on as a term, which, which is the oldest term for for sex between [00:07:00] women now the term homosexual in the idea of a unique, uh, sexual identity. Uh uh, Michelle Foca writing about this in the the history of sex, uh, tends to be, quite, uh, strict about this and say that it really only exists from the latter part of the 19th century. We might trace it earlier, and we can't completely rule out that that some people did think of themselves as having a fixed, uh, sexual attraction in earlier [00:07:30] times. We simply don't know enough about that. But certainly by the time we get to her in Berlin, uh, he sets up the Institute of Sexual Science, and he very much sets up Uh uh, the idea of homosexuality inversion as a permanent, biologically determined state. Now he's a medical doctor. He's part of that group of, uh, doctors. Uh uh including people like Lomb Cesia Lomb who was very interested [00:08:00] in inborn criminality, which could be physically demonstrated by characteristics of the head. Uh, all of these kinds of ideas about the human body, uh, that became popular with the Nazis 40 years later, uh, that actually you had biological characteristics which were unchangeable. So we have to see Hirschfeld, uh, although he is an heroic figure and very important in in the terms of in terms of the history of of homosexual politics. But we do have to see his ideas about [00:08:30] fixed biological identity as part of something which is broader than that now. There were other people at that time who absolutely did not agree with him. Adolf Brandt, who started the the community of the special, uh was he and people who belong to that organisation in Germany and and elsewhere because they were members of that organisation and receiving their magazine, uh, in many different countries, their view was that these, uh we are the special. We are specially [00:09:00] uh uh, good masculine men. And we're just like the Greeks. We love masculinity and in fact, really masculine men can actually only love other men because women are so inferior. Who would love them? It's very sexist, but it is a It is an interestingly different kind of viewpoint. And it's mirrored in some respects in the early, uh, women's movement in Germany, which, uh, shows some tendencies in some respects towards lesbian feminism. [00:09:30] Uh, Lillian Federman, uh, cites a woman who stood up at a conference in about 19 05 and said that inverted women had done a great deal for the women's movement And what thanks that they had so clearly these views are are being shared by women. And there were women who were certainly part of, uh, Hirschfeld's movement as well. So we see a We see a whole body of different ideas conflicting in terms of the British, uh, ideas. Uh, Edward [00:10:00] Carpenter, who as a socialist vegetarian and a spokesperson for what he called the intermediate sex, had a number of women who, uh, uh were followers of his and again we get an idea that there are special people. But it was rather fluid because carpenters of the idea that the intermediate sex, which is a fairly large category, can interpret extremely masculine men and extremely feminine women to one another. [00:10:30] So in a way, he's talking about a continuum. These ideas of a continuum are floating around at this time. And of course, they reemerge with Kinsey, uh, in the in the late 19 forties, when he actually looks at the practises of same sexual behaviour among men and women in the United States and finds that this does in fact work on a continuum and that the majority of people are somewhere in the middle and not at extremes. And so that is another [00:11:00] kind of interpretation. So in many respects, we've seen a balance between ideas about, uh, innate inborn sexuality, which is highly fixed and in one direction, with some people being bisexual, and that's then fixed in two directions and so forth. Uh, and that that sort of view and another view, which is that of social construction, which is environment, which says that you know, you might develop, uh, your sexuality in terms of things that happen [00:11:30] in your in your environment and that it might also be able to be changed. The notion of a fixed central identity is important when we talk about the law. Hirschel was annoyed with others at that time at the beginning of the century because he thought that talking about the fact that everybody might be able to do it all men might be going to be able to do it would, uh would certainly influence the authorities in terms of changing the law. And certainly that was a view that we took here, too, during homosexual law reform that actually [00:12:00] to talk about the fact that, uh, yes, everybody might like to do this would be playing into the hands of the fundamentalists who said, Well, if you change the law, it means that you know, these awful men are going to go out and seduce a whole lot of other men and seduce boys and that sort of thing. Clearly, you've got a better legal argument. If you say well, only a small number of people, just a fixed minority, want to do this. So there's no need to have a law against it. But that may not really be, uh, the way that things are because we may have [00:12:30] a more universal, uh, view really of of human sexuality. Gay liberation, coming along in the late 19 sixties and through the 19 seventies and lesbian feminism very emphatically said that, uh, Gay Liberation said, We want to bring out the lesbian and gay man in everybody's head. This is something that everybody should be doing. And lesbian feminism said every woman can be a lesbian. And in fact, uh, in a society where men oppress women to be lesbian as a sign of mental health. And [00:13:00] so lesbian feminism are saying, leave these oppressive marriages come out. You'll be much happier if you find a woman partner. And, uh, a lot of gay liberationist felt that, uh, men stuck in their rigid heterosexual roles were denying themselves an exploration of their sexuality and their emotional beings. So those ideas were very definitely there from the 19 seventies and eighties. And as we move into to now, uh, the second decade of the 21st century, we see a greater universalizing [00:13:30] principle. Many young people are not that interested in in in calling themselves gay or lesbian. They like to call themselves unidentified. Many people don't even necessarily want to call themselves bisexual. Um, we've seen the rise of the term here in a in New Zealand this term resurrected from, uh, the story about hi and Tanaka, uh, by the scholars and [00:14:00] Lee Smith and independently finding this term, which originally has the meaning of intimate friend of the same sex but which is now being much more widely used to refer refer to people who are part of these alternative, uh, communities, rather as our original term camp, which was the term we used here before. Uh, we got the, uh, American terms gay and lesbian in the 19 seventies and began to use those fairly exclusively. Uh, [00:14:30] so we see a movement really toward either not people not labelling themselves or labelling themselves in a more inclusive kind of way. And we're finding now, as we're talking about, uh, the various communities that we want to use constructions like LGBT TQ I which where we might be saying, Well, the communities which are lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, questioning [00:15:00] and intersect that we see a much broader church. Uh, when we're talking about who our communities are. So all we can really say about language and about ideas about same sexuality is that they change according to the circumstances of the time. Uh, and it can't exist apart from the societies in which we find ourselves so that as we look forward into the future, we can. All we can say is that it will certainly change and ideas [00:15:30] about same sexuality will change. Uh, but it does appear that in this country we're moving forward into an area where more people are questioning more. People are prepared to consider the fact that they might be attracted to someone of their of the same sex, uh, and that their sexuality isn't, uh, fixed and could change.

IRN: 251
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_katherine_mansfield.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004062
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089356
TITLE: Katherine Mansfield
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1880s; Alison Laurie; Days Bay; Eastbourne; Edith Kathleen Bendall; Gay Line Wellington Trust; Katherine Mansfield; Maata Mahupuku; Ngāti Kahungunu; Queer History 101; Rule Foundation; Wellington; arts; bisexual; lesbian; transcript online; writing
DATE: 11 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison talks about writer Katherine Mansfield and her female lovers.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi, I'm Doctor Alison Lowy. I was the Gender and Women's Studies programme director at Victoria University of Wellington here in New Zealand for many years. I'm a writer or a historian and Lisbon and gay activist. Today I'm going to be looking at Catherine Mansfield, regarded as one of our greatest writers, and someone whom we know had very important, emotional and probably sexual relationships with women. Should we be thinking about Katherine Mansfield [00:00:30] as a lesbian? Do we want to use a noun like that? A label in relation to her? Should we think of her as a lesbian writer, whatever that might mean? Uh, when? Actually, most of the things she writes about aren't to do with same sex relations between women. At least, of course, we think that there is some kind of sensibility, uh, that would be apparent in women whose primary relationships are with other women that that would affect [00:01:00] the ways in which they write about things and give them another kind of sensibility. That's a possibility, and people have tried to look at her writing in that way. Let's think about her. She's born in 18 88. Born in Wellington, she comes from, uh, an upper class background. Uh, her father was Australian Harold Betrim, her mother, Annie Burnell Dyer. And they later become Sir Harold and lady beat very important people in Wellington. [00:01:30] Uh, Lady beat running the social scene here. Her father later becomes, uh, his, uh, he's not. He's a director of the Bank of New Zealand and has other significant social roles. They lived in several houses around Wellington as the as the fortunes of the family improved and the Children attended local initially local public schools. But as the family became wealthier, they were later [00:02:00] sent to private schools. When Katherine Mansfield Kathleen Bee as was her original name when she was 12, they were transferred from Wellington Girls High School to miss school Now Samuel Marsden Collegiate school for girls. And that's where uh, Katherine Mansfield first met uh, Marta Mau, probably her first lover. Certainly a very intense and close relationship between the two of them. [00:02:30] The beat, like other wealthy New Zealanders, wanted to see their Children's edu education completed abroad, and, uh, in January 19 03, the Families SA sailed for London, where the three older girls were enrolled at Queen's college in London and their maternal Aunt Bell Dier, uh, remained there as chaperone. It was at the school that Katherine Mansfield met Ida Constance Baker, whom she later called Leslie [00:03:00] Moore or LM. During her time at the school, she was exposed to a number of different ideas. She became familiar with the work of, uh, Oscar Wilde. Of course, the Oscar Wilde trial had had happened. Uh, not that long before. Then she becomes more worldly. She makes a trip, uh, to Belgium, where she encounters, uh, some interesting people [00:03:30] there. And then she returns to New Zealand in 19 06. She becomes, uh, involved in Wellington with Edith Kathleen Bendel, who she refers to as EKB. And that relationship is very important to her. She appears to be having very intense friendships, uh, with EKB and with Marta, who also returns [00:04:00] to Wellington, and she appears to be having relationships with the two of them at that time here in Wellington. Now Marta is, uh, she's from she's also known as Martha Grace. And sometimes as Princess Martha. She was the daughter of Chief Dick Mau and Emily Sexton, who married Nathaniel Grace after Ma Ma death. Pat Lawler, in his uh, by early biography says that, uh, Catherine [00:04:30] and Marta's early relationship was of some concern to their teachers and that Sir Harold and Lady Beach did not favour the friendship. And this might be because they were aware of its intensity and disapproved of that. Or it may be because of the fact that MARTA was Maori and there may have been some, uh, racism involved in their, uh, put in their concerns about this. They had met up in London before Catherine [00:05:00] returned to New Zealand, Uh, because Marta had been at finishing school in Paris and she was accompanied by her own chaperone, MT. It was during this time that Catherine allowed Marta to purchase clothing and, uh, leave the bill for Harold Beach to settle. So there may have been some problems around that. In her journal, Catherine writes, and she refers to Marty as Carlota and she writes, Oh, have you remembered? [00:05:30] We were floating down Regent Street in a handsome on either side of us, the blossoms of golden light and I had a little half loop of the moon. Then, in June 19 07 in her journal she writes. I want Marta. I want her as I have had her terribly. This is unclean, I know, but true. What an extraordinary thing I feel savagely clued and almost powerfully and armoured of the child. I had thought that a thing of the past. Hey ho, my mind [00:06:00] is like a Russian novel and around about the same time, Marta wrote in her own diary, which she then gave to Catherine. Dearest Kay writes ducky letters. I like this, but what do you mean by being so super beautiful as you went away? You, which you are beauty incarnate? Pat Lawler interviewed Marta and reported that she revealed unpublished incidents in Catherine's life. Uh, saying that Catherine had left New [00:06:30] Zealand because of a flirtation in 19 08 and saying that, uh, Sir Harold had locked his daughter in her room as a punishment and to console her, uh, Marta had climbed up to her room. Marta revealed other sensational aspects of her alleged knowledge of Katherine Mansfield, which Lawler said he did not did not wish to publish. So there are clearly all kinds of clues and rumours and incidents that are of [00:07:00] interest in relation to this. One of the most interesting is a story that, uh, Katherine Mansfield writes, and she writes it, uh, placing a protagonist in the thistle in and the in the story she writes, I can never forget the Thistle Hotel. I can never forget that strange winter night. My room was opposite hers, she said. Could I lace up? Her evening bodes. It was hawks at the back. Very well. [00:07:30] The story ends, she told me as we walked along the corridor to her room that she was glad the night had come. I did not ask why. I was glad, too. It seemed a secret between us, So I went with her into her room to undo those troublesome hooks like a sleepy child. She slipped out of her frock, and then suddenly she turned to me and flung her arms around my neck, and you was not dead. The story was called Libere, and it was eventually [00:08:00] published from a copy that Catherine Mansfield had sent her school friend via Baker, whom she referred to as Mimi. Uh, in January 1922 Catherine wrote, and this is about a year before her death in 1923 that she'd received a frightening letter from Mimi, which brought back the inexplicable past. It flashed into my mind, too, that she must have a large number of letters of mine, which don't bear thinking about in some way I fear her. This suggests [00:08:30] that Catherine had sent Mimi similar stories or letters regarding her as a safe confidant. Mimi was the girl who had introduced Catherine to the 18 91 and explicated version of Oscar Wilde's The Picture of Dorian Grey at School, and it was at school, according to biographer Clare To that, the two that's Mimi and Catherine were suspected of immorality of a kind unspecified. Now it appears that that her parents may [00:09:00] have read this story. Certainly Catherine gave this story to her father's typist to type, and it may be this. That's the reason that there's an incident, uh, which does result in the fact that they are prepared to allow her in nine in 19 08 to return to London, UN chaperoned. Now this is a young woman where they felt that her sisters and her constantly needed chaperones on the voyage. Suddenly, they prepared to allow her to go off to England on her own [00:09:30] and have a Remittance have some money that she's going to regularly receive in order to live there. In a sense, she's a Remittance woman in the opposite direction, and a possible explanation of this is that she there's a scandal going on, that they don't want her in Wellington. It's going to affect the family's reputation and that they're of concern. It's likely that they're more concerned about her relationship with Marta. And there was evidence that Marta, uh, during uh, an engagement party for Catherine's sister Marta [00:10:00] came to Wellington. She attended it. It's very likely that she would have stayed with the family at Fitz Herbert Terrace. It's much more likely that she would have stayed at the Thistle in up the road so that this story was actually about Marta at the Thistle Inn and that the parents did end up reading it. Even Anthony Alpers, uh, talks about this and says that, uh, there was an episode that happened, [00:10:30] and he wonders whether the A story that was being put about, which was about a a AAA dance with a sailor at a ball. Um, and he wonders whether there was an adventure, actually, with a man or with Marta and whether the Bee trims were concerned about Catherine's chastity or whether they had the word pervert in mind. Now Catherine also had a relationship with Edith Kathleen Bendel, and she writes about this fairly frankly, in her journal, [00:11:00] Uh, in June 19 07. She writes about an episode with Edith Kathleen Bendel at the Beach Holiday Cottage in Days Bay. That's the cottage that's the subject of the story at the Bay. But that's not what she's writing about. In her journal, she writes. I feel more powerfully all those so term sexual impulses with her than I have with any men. I feel that to lie with my head on her breast is to feel what life can hold pillowed against her, clinging to her hands, her face against mine. I am a child, a woman and [00:11:30] more than a half man. We lay down together, still silently, she every now and then pressing me to her, kissing me, my head on her breasts, her hands around my body stroking me lovingly. What an experience! And when we returned to town, Small wondered that I could not sleep, but tossed to and fro and yearned and realised 1000 things which had been obscure. Oh, Oscar, Am I peculiarly susceptible to sexual impulse? I must be, I suppose. But I rejoice now. Each time [00:12:00] I see her, I want her to put her arms around me and hold me against her. I think she wants to too. But she is afraid and custom hedges her. And I feel we shall go away again. Then she writes, uh, in between February and May 19 08, she writes. I shall end. Of course, by killing myself, I purchased my brilliance with my life. It would better that I were dead already. But I am unlike others because I've experienced all there is to [00:12:30] experience. But there is no one to help me. Of course, Oscar Dorian Grey has brought this to pass. I am now so much worse than ever. Madness must lie this way. Pull yourself up. It's clear that Catherine was familiar with the work not only of Oscar Wilde, but of John Addington Simmons, Edward Carpenter and Walt Whitcombe. She read books at the General Assembly Library, arranged to her father's connections, and she mentions Edward Carpenter, who wrote the Intermediate sex in a letter, [00:13:00] and she also writes, I find a resemblance of myself to John Addington Simmons. So it appears that she actually has quite a bit of information and that her information is that homosexuality is degenerate. It's a perversion, and she starts to become very frightened about all of this, and especially if she is sent away from Wellington, then that clearly is going to be very traumatic for her. Now. Both Marta and EKB remain in New Zealand, [00:13:30] and she corresponds with them, uh, for some years, And Kara Mansfield writes several stories inspired by these women and traces and clues can be, uh, seen in relation to that now. Meanwhile, although she's having these intense relationships with these two women, she continues her friendship, uh, with Ida Baker and when she returns to London, Uh, that's the person with whom she resumes a friendship [00:14:00] and a relationship. And that's the relationship which endures for the rest of her life until her death in 1923. So that's actually the most important, um, relationship of her life. Certainly the most consistent, uh, when she returns to London, she's met by Ida Baker. She stays with her family before she moves to a hostel, and then she becomes involved with the New Zealand musician Garnet and moves in with his family as a paying guest. And she appears to have been trying [00:14:30] to create a relationship with him. Uh, she writes to trial that she felt as though nature said to me Now you found your true self now that you are at peace with the world accepting instead of doubting now that you love you can see Another lodger at the hostel has described Troll as slender, dreamy and cultured, and Alpers commented that he was not markedly masculine. Her interest in the trolls they were twins, uh, had begun in New Zealand. [00:15:00] She had written, uh, in her journal that Arnold must always be everything to me because he poured into my virgin soul the life essence of music. And here is the colonel of the whole Matter, the Oscar like thread, so clearly she is dwelling on her emerging sexuality. She's concerned about this and the circumstances, and she's particularly concerned because before they'd returned to New Zealand, uh, she'd visited the trials in Brussels, [00:15:30] where she'd met their homosexual friend Rudolph, and shortly afterwards, Rudolph had shot himself and Anthony Alpers comments. The circumstances, which belonged to the world of Oscar Wilde and the love that dare not spread its name, were very disturbing to Katherine Mansfield. Did that sort of thing lead to suicide? And perhaps the trials and Rudolph were involved in homosexual relationships at that time? The Oscar like thread or just as significantly? Perhaps Katherine Mansfield believed that they were. [00:16:00] She wanted to marry Garnett Tra, but his parents intervened and the relationship ended. Suddenly, in March 19 09, she married George Bowden, a singing teacher she'd met only a fortnight before. Bowden, age 31 lived with a male friend, Lamont Chan, again. Perhaps they were homosexual. Or perhaps Katherine Mansfield believed they were. She was constantly in her journals and in her letters, seeking my people, perhaps a reference to homosexuality as well as to like mindedness. Clare [00:16:30] Tolan suggests that she married Bowden because she was pregnant to Arnold. Even if this were the case, uh, she may still have preferred to marry a man that she thought might be have an inclination toward his own sex Bowden and his own recollections, recalled that when they first met, she looked like Oscar Wilde. So perhaps she was attempting to signal her sexuality through dress for the wedding. She dressed in black as if for a funeral, and afterwards they went to a hotel where had immediately left him and fled [00:17:00] back to Ida Baker. She returned to the hostel and Ida Baker found her a flat and, uh, then her mother, Because of these incidents, then her mother, uh, comes, uh to to London. Uh, there's a good deal of trouble. And, uh, on her, she takes her to Germany to the Bavarian Spa Bad Hoen. And that is the place where Doctor Knape has the [00:17:30] water treatment. And the water treatment was thought, uh, very useful for nervous and mental problems. It was frequently used for sexual problems so that it may well be the case that Lady Beat thinks that Catherine has some sexual problem because of her interest in women. This has upset the marriage. Certainly she's not pleased with her and she sails back to New Zealand and she cuts Catherine out of her will. And that's, uh, pretty drastic news of the scandal reaches [00:18:00] Wellington and Vera Betrim, the uh, sister her fiance was warned against marrying the sister of somebody like Katherine Mansfield. So contemporary theories of biological determinism might have encouraged the belief that there was some kind of inherited perversion in the family. Catherine stayed in Germany till the end of 19. 09, possibly miscarried a pregnancy. And she possibly had an affair with Florian uh Serbians, who infected her with gonorrhoea, subsequently making [00:18:30] her vulnerable to the tuberculosis infection from which she died. She may have thought that having a number of heterosexual affairs might cure her interest in women. Um, perhaps she's bisexual, as, um, biographers have written about her. Perhaps she's just very interested in sexual experimentation. It's difficult to know, however. She's clearly not very happy, Uh, and clearly she finds all of this a great worry and disturbance. When she returns [00:19:00] to London, she performs at the Cave of the Golden Calf, which is a nightclub patronised by lesbians and run by Frieda Strandberg, the lesbian, an acknowledged lesbian and the former wife of Swedish playwright Alga Strindberg. She's also familiar with the Bloomsbury Circle and Lady Ole Morell group at Sington, though she feels ambivalent about Bloomsbury or blooms buggery, as she calls it, with discussions on the loves of bugger, sodomy and SAS are common. [00:19:30] She's close. She became close to Virginia Woolf from 1916. The connection probably expressed in this passage again. There came that silence. That was a question. But this time she did not hesitate. She moved forward very softly and gently. She put her arm around her friend a long, tender embrace. Yes, that was it, Of course, that was what was wanting. So there are many other kinds of passages where she writes about those kinds of things. She becomes involved with John Middleton Mary from 1911, [00:20:00] and he became a lodger in her flat and after some weeks, her lover. They married in 1918, after her divorce from Bowden, uh, she writes in her 1919 journal that I had been the man and he had been the woman we'd always acted more or less like men friends, Then this illness getting worse and worse and turning me into a woman. Uh, others also perceived them as men friends, one Bandol Frenchman recalled with his cigarette [00:20:30] and his stick and madam with her cigarette and her stick. It was impossible to tell which was which they were so alike. So that's the relationship she had with him. It's quite an intense relationship, but largely, uh, carried on through letters and difficult at this stage to know how physical that relationship might have been. She becomes very ill from 1918. It's unlikely that she has any kind of physical relationship much with anybody. After that, uh, Ida Baker, later known as LM. Um, [00:21:00] in her memoirs, she writes, uh, uh uh. She puts in a poem that Catherine Mansfield had written to her called The Secret. In the Profound Ocean, there is a rainbow shell. It is always there, shining most still under the great storm waves and under the happy little waves that the old Greeks called ripples of laughter. And you listen. The rainbow shell sings in the profound ocean. It is always there, singing most silently, and this might suggest the existence [00:21:30] of a secret cater Mansfield self special to Ida Baker and to which cannot be destroyed even by storm waves, she writes, um, earlier in her in her journal, I think quite seriously that LM and I are so extraordinarily interesting. And it's not while the thing is happening that I think that but the significance is near enough. Have I ruin into a happy life? Am I to blame? And she writes in one of her last [00:22:00] letters to Les Leslie Moore is, I had better end as quickly for the old feeling is coming back and a a longing, a feeling that I can't be satisfied unless I know you are near not on my account, not because I need you, but because in my horrid, odious and intolerable way I love you and I'm yours ever. And she ends her life by going to She becomes interested in the teaching of which is interesting in itself because a year later, a number of American [00:22:30] lesbians, uh, also go there. So that's an interesting, esoteric, uh, kind of, uh, religion. And it's unclear whether she just goes there with because she feels it will help cure her tuberculosis or whether she wants some other kind of more spiritual psychological change. But an entry that she writes in her journal is interesting. She writes this in October 2019 22. Risk [00:23:00] risk Anything care No more for the opinions of others. For those voices, do the hardest thing on Earth for for you act for yourself, face the troops, and it may be that she was hoping to begin a new and to find a way in which to live her life. Unfortunately, her health completely declines, and she died. So we don't know from this stage what her life would have been like had she lived [00:23:30] longer. We don't know how important the relationships that she had with women were, but I think we can say that she's certainly deeply conflicted about them. Uh, they were important to her. And in those ways, it's very interesting to think about how same sexuality, uh, has been such an important part of the lives of many, uh, creative women in New Zealand.

IRN: 239
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_human_rights_civil_unions.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004061
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089355
TITLE: Human rights and civil unions
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; Alison Laurie; Brian Tamaki; Civil Union Act (2004); Destiny Church; Gay Line Wellington Trust; Human Rights Act (1993); Human Rights Commission; National Gay Rights Coalition; Queer History 101; Rule Foundation; Wellington Lesbian Centre; activism; civil unions; hate speech; homophobia; human rights; religion; transcript online
DATE: 11 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison talks about human rights and civil unions in New Zealand.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi. I'm Doctor Alison Laurie. I was the Gender and Women's Studies programme director at Victoria University of Wellington here in New Zealand for many years. I'm a writer, oral historian and lesbian and gay activist. Today I'm going to be looking at human rights and how these apply to lesbian and gay bisexual and others. Uh, and the inclusion of sexual orientation as a human right, this matter [00:00:30] starts being discussed. Uh, here in New Zealand with the original, uh, passage of the Human Rights Commission Act in 1977 which includes a number of areas where discrimination is outlawed. It's outlawed on the basis of sex, uh, marital status, uh, and so on now, human rights, uh, don't include everything. It's a question of [00:01:00] prohibiting discrimination, uh, in specified areas employment, housing and access to goods and services. What goods and services mean is often subject to interpretation. It clearly it would be being able to go to your public library or to go to the park, access to insurance and things of that kind. But it's often a matter of discussion as to what that actually means. Access to goods and services. So protection is not absolutely [00:01:30] for everything. Uh, we don't have in this country legislation against hate speech. So people can express negative opinions about, uh, lesbians and gay men or about homosexuality that is not covered by human rights. So it's specified access. Human rights are not special rights, which is what Anti gay. Uh, people have often tried to say, Oh, they're asking for special rights. These are not special rights. These are ordinary [00:02:00] rights that everybody in the community should be entitled to have. The notion of human rights begins, uh, after the Second World War, Uh, spearheaded by people like Eleanor Roosevelt, uh, working within the framework of the United Nations. Uh, concerned about the things that happened during World War Two, where people were denied their human rights, uh, where Jewish people, for example, were not allowed to. That started with not being allowed [00:02:30] to attend certain universities or, uh, all of that kind of thing. So there's been a discussion about these matters since that time trying to ensure that everybody in a society is entitled to the same rights. A terrible example of that was apartheid in South Africa, where black people were not allowed the same kinds of rights, even though the governments of that time tended to say that it was a separate but equal clearly it was not. So This has been a matter of [00:03:00] some discussion during the latter part of the, uh, 20th century. Uh, in this country, the, uh, National Gay Rights Coalition. The NGRC. Becomes active thinking about the extension of the Human Rights Act to include sexual orientation and that that begins to be discussed right from 1977. And they made, uh, submissions, uh, unsuccessful submissions to the Human Rights Commission. And, for example, in July [00:03:30] 1980 when the Wellington City Council refused to place a lesbian centre advertisement on city buses uh, a big campaign, uh, emerged. The sign that the Lesbian Centre wanted to put on the buses was simply a simple sign that said lesbians contact your local community right to PO box whatever. In Wellington and the Wellington City Council refused to allow this advertisement to be put on the buses [00:04:00] and said that, um, that was very undesirable because, uh, in in fact, the, uh, town clerk uh McCutcheon claimed that a small boy might see it and ask his mother what a lesbian was, uh, so that would be undesirable. So this was a matter of some discussion. The centre, the, uh, lesbian centre, uh, contacted the Human Rights Commission, which said it could do nothing about this. And [00:04:30] then the chief Commissioner downy claimed that some sorts of discrimination should not be legislated against, uh, and a human rights campaign emerged, and that wanted to, uh, include sexual orientation in the Human Rights Act. So then, uh, a number of groups were fighting to achieve this. And the first measure [00:05:00] of success, uh, was the introduction of the homosexual law reform bill part two, which would have added sexual orientation to the homosexual law reform bill. And, uh, that was defined. Uh uh, Sexual orientation was defined as having a heterosexual, homosexual, lesbian or bisexual orientation. So, in other words, any kind of sexual orientation [00:05:30] within those areas, uh, is protected, uh, during the campaign for this bill. Although the part one of the bill which decriminalised male homosexual acts that was passed eventually after a very hard fought campaign. Uh, but the MP S and the opponents of the bill fought just as hard against Part two of the bill and in particular that you couldn't. You couldn't have protection for homosexual teachers. You shouldn't have protection for homosexual [00:06:00] soldiers. Uh, for firemen, um, and for all this kind of thing And in the finish, there was just so going to be so many amendments that the lesbian and gay groups themselves thought that it would be far too dangerous to pass it with those amendments because that would be that would look like permission to discriminate against people in those areas especially, you know, for homosexual teachers. So that was lost at that time. Then, eight years later, [00:06:30] the intention of part two of the bill was reactivated when Caine O'Regan, who was the national member of Parliament for Raglan, proposed amendments to add several new grounds to the Human Rights Commission Act of 1977 to include sexual orientation. And others of these grounds included the presence in the body of organisms, uh, which could could cause disease. So that was to provide some protection for people people with who [00:07:00] are IV positive or had a I. And in July 1993 the Human Rights Act was passed, which prohibited discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation defined as homosexual, lesbian, bisexual or heterosexual orientation. And so that was very important. And although there was a campaign against, uh, this, uh, it was not such a hard fought campaign as many of the others. This act came into force [00:07:30] on the first of February 1994 and it applied immediately to the private sector. However, government had various exemptions to give it time to bring laws and policy into line with the intention of the act. It was supposedly supposed to do that by the year 2000. Then, uh, the Human Rights Amendment Act 2001 was passed. Uh, it came into force from the beginning of 2002, [00:08:00] and, uh, that said that the government was no longer exempt from fully complying with the human rights provisions because the government had been delaying on the implementation of this with a great deal of discussion happening through, uh, that decade. As a consequence of this, the civil Union Act 2004 was able to be passed, which created legal partnerships for different and same sex couples with many of the provisions of marriage. [00:08:30] Uh, Tim Barnett, Uh, an openly gay MP was someone who fought, uh very strongly to get this legislation passed. However, it's it is the case that whatever government was in would, necessarily, unless it had repealed aspects of the Human Rights Act 1993 or the Human Rights Amendment Act 2001 would have been obliged to pass something like the civil Union act. Because [00:09:00] if you say that, uh, lesbians and gay men have access to the same goods and services, this does imply marriage or partnership. And certainly when we come into questions like the provision of inheritance and all of these kinds of things, something like that would have had to be passed. There were a number of gay and lesbian individuals, uh, who were concerned that the Civil Union, [00:09:30] uh, the civil Union legislation provided for a second class kind of marriage they would have liked to see actual marriage. There were other lesbians and gay men who in fact, were opposed to civil union and opposed to marriage because they took a more radical view of partnerships and didn't see why. Uh, sexual relationships should be privileged over other kinds of relationships, so there was a spectrum of different ideas, even in the lesbian and gay communities. There was, [00:10:00] however, tremendous opposition to this legislation with, um, Brian Tamaki who, uh, from Destiny Church raising, uh, a lot of, uh, antagonism having a big street march, uh, protesting against it and with large numbers of of submissions, which, uh, raised all kinds of questions about that. So this was this was actually a very hard fought campaign as well. But it was passed, as was also the, uh, relationship [00:10:30] Statutory References Act of 2005, which provided for consistency for same sex and de facto couples across a large range of existing laws which affect married couples from trivial things like whether you can fix somebody's electrical wiring in their house because you can do that for your marriage partner or or a civil union partner. But you can't go and do that for your neighbour. Um, and so some rather trivial things, but very important [00:11:00] things as well, including superannuation, benefits and inheritance. There were some losses in this as well. It meant that, uh, because it applies to de facto relationships as well the that that particular, uh, act 2005. It means that a same sex couple living together for more than two years the same provisions that apply to a married couple or a civil union couple will apply to them unless they've made a special statement before they began to live together. Uh, opting [00:11:30] out of that, uh, So it means that, uh, property common property will be, uh will be considered a matter of consideration should they break up their relationship. And a difficulty also is that they can't both be, uh, one person can't be working and the other person on an unemployment benefit. In the case of lesbians, both people could not be on a domestic purposes. Uh, benefit. Uh, so there are some losses like that as well. And for older, [00:12:00] lesbian and male couples, it means that they would get a lesser rate of superannuation because it's based on the couple's rate rather than two single superannuation, as you might have before. So there were some losses, but generally the gains are that you can inherit equally that you are treated equally under the law and so altogether. Generally, this has been supported by the lesbian and gay community various lesbian and gay communities, uh, in this country. Then in 2008, [00:12:30] the birth, Death, Marriages and Relationships Registration Amendment Act 2004, uh, was amended to take account of the technological and social developments to allow lesbian mothers and their partners to both be reflected on birth certificates. So that's been an important, uh, addition as well, which starts to take account of these the circumstances of, uh, people who have Children and what might, uh, assist their family life. [00:13:00] Uh, there were there was still a way to go. The, uh, as far as the transgender community is concerned that those protections have not been incorporated into law. Uh, some legal opinion said that they thought they were covered by six. There was an attempt to put forward, um, a legislation benefiting this community by our first transgender member of parliament, Georgina Baer. But that didn't happen. And there there was still a way to go [00:13:30] on legislative change so far as the addition of human rights for all of our communities are concerned. But we've come quite a way further than many other countries have done.

IRN: 245
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_hagley_park_killing.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004060
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089354
TITLE: Hagley Park killing
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1960s; Alison Laurie; Charles Allan Aberhart; Christchurch; Gay Line Wellington Trust; Hagley Park; Queer History 101; Rule Foundation; beats; courts; crime; cruising; gay; hate crime; law; police; transcript online
DATE: 11 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison talks about the killing of Charles Aberhart in 1964.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi. I'm Doctor Alison Laurie. I was the Gender and Women Studies Programme director at Victoria University of Wellington here in New Zealand for many years. I'm a writer or a historian and lesbian and gay activist. Today I'm going to be looking at the Hagley Park case. This case happened. It was a killing which happened on the evening of the 23rd of January 1964. On the stage, a gay man named Charles [00:00:30] Hart was cruising in the area inside and outside a brick public toilet near the Armagh Street entrance to Hagley Park in Christchurch. A group of adolescent boys aged between 15 and 17, uh attacked him. They punched him. Uh, they robbed him and they left him dying beside the path. A passerby discovered his body later that night, at about 10. 30 the passerby had [00:01:00] seen the boys who were responsible, and by the following morning, the police had identified them and arrested them and taken statements from them. Who was Charles A. He was a draper from Bleen, aged 35 at the time, and at one point he'd act. He'd lived in Christchurch, and he'd been, uh then he became the manager in Bleen of a branch of the Christchurch Draper store. Millers he'd [00:01:30] been the year before he'd been convicted of indecent assault on another male, and he had been sentenced to three months in prison. And the magistrate had said at the time that he was he'd given him a light sentence because the true parties consented. He was in Christchurch cruising. What he was unaware of was that there'd been a number of queer batterings, uh, in Hagley Park. Uh, at around about that time, Uh, [00:02:00] there were reports from gay men who were sitting in their cars outside the park of seeing him go into the park. Uh, but nobody thought to warn him because they didn't know him. And, uh, the boys were seen running from the park. Uh, afterwards, and some of the people sitting in cars outside were concerned that something terrible had happened. The boys made statements about it. They there was no question whether they'd done it. Uh, they admitted it, [00:02:30] and they and it was described as a queer bashing. Uh, they went on trial on the fifth of May, and the evidence took five days to hear. And the judge, in summing up, reminded the jury that it was not necessary to identify the actual person who struck the final and fatal blow. They all admitted to having kicked and hit him. The, uh, jury retired for seven hours. It was an all male jury, and they acquitted [00:03:00] all the six boys of any crime, which was, uh, absolutely shocking that they did that. The newspaper newspapers reported the crime. The Christchurch Press reported it. And, uh, and there were a number of letters to the newspaper. Uh, but mainly the Christchurch Press were interested in the nature of Juries and whether or not they're still appropriate to our legal system. In the [00:03:30] light of the verdict, nobody appeared to be willing to defend homosexuals really, uh, or to be concerned about, um, whether or not homosexuals should have the same human rights as other people. Uh, in fact, the only person strangely who did so was the judge who had had cautioned the jury not to give any attention to a Hart's private life and reaching their conclusions. The weekly newspaper Truth [00:04:00] uh, which mentioned this case only once a month after the trial, in the context of another story about Juries reaching strange conclusions. And they didn't discuss the sexual dimension of the case. There were some other articles dealing with aspects of the case, uh, one in landfall, which, uh, by somebody called Ian Brouard, who said homosexuals in New Zealand Labour under a triple disadvantage they regarded [00:04:30] with disgust, suffer severe legal penalties if convicted and worst of all, are not even guaranteed the posthumous satisfaction of seeing their ass salients brought to justice. That is, they are not considered equal with other citizens before the law. But he also talked about abnormal and therapy and described homosexuality is not exactly a sickness, but as something that should not be regarded as a crime. There was another article by Vincent O Sullivan [00:05:00] uh, in a journal called comment and that was, uh, that was quite positive. Uh, he thought that the whole trial was, uh full of the notion that the sexual Proclivities of the victim should somehow alleviate the guilt of the accused as if in some way the vice of one rubbed off as virtue on the other. He was outraged by the statement and the summing up of one of the defence lawyers who had said that even if they went to Hagley Park to look for [00:05:30] homosexuals, there was no offence in this. The youth charge had probably learned a sound lesson. The case is a tragic one. By which he meant, of course, a tragedy not for the victim, but for the accused. Uh, there was an absence of comment in, uh, left wing journals, um, and so on. And, uh, the only major periodical to comment was the listener, which both editorialised and public published letters on the case. The [00:06:00] editorial in the lister, uh, by Monty Holcroft, uh, is interesting. He was not particularly concerned about the fate of a per se. Uh, he even made a gesture toward those who favoured the acquittal, remarking some indeed might believe it was better for all the accused to go free than to risk unjust punishment for one or two who were only technically guilty. However, uh, you can't, uh, there would would not have been [00:06:30] a way of, uh, of, uh, making a verdict of that kind. Probably at that, uh, at that time. But he also, uh, stated that Abha deserved compassion, not because his human rights have been infringed or even because he was dead, but because he was sick and we shouldn't treat sick people in this way. However, it this is 1964. And it would be a further decade before the American Psychological Association removed [00:07:00] homosexuality from its list of pathologies. So in 1964 describing a homosexual as sick rather than as morally evil was quite a radical statement. Uh, although the listener was prepared to say that was therefore no more deserving of death than anybody else, it really didn't go any further than that. Interestingly, however, this case, uh, was very important in terms of the, [00:07:30] uh, legal subcommittee of the Dorian Society, which then in the subsequent years, from 1964 through to 1967 formed, uh, the New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society. And one of the strongest motivations for forming this society was in fact thinking about the Hagley Park killing. Because homosexual people who didn't call themselves gay at that stage and women didn't call themselves lesbians either were [00:08:00] outraged that this could happen, that this was, uh, here. Somebody could be killed and people admit that they had killed them. And yet uh, nothing happened as a consequence of that case. So a a good thing came out of that in the formation of the homosexual Law Reform Society. And a number of heterosexual people were prepared to be vice presidents of that society formed on the model of the British, uh, the British Society, Uh, because [00:08:30] they also felt that this was a matter of justice. So in that sense, didn't die, uh, for no good cause a tragedy for him. But he was martyred. Uh, perhaps in the cause of what became, gradually a greater and greater momentum toward legislative reform and an increasing awareness, even despite [00:09:00] the very lukewarm responses of the media but an increasing awareness among the public that this really wasn't the kind of thing that we should be seeing in New Zealand. So that is the Hagley Park killing a very important, uh, event in the history of homosexuality in New Zealand.

IRN: 234
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_gay_liberation.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004059
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089353
TITLE: Gay Liberation
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1970s; Alison Laurie; Gay Liberation Front; Gay Line Wellington Trust; Queer History 101; Rule Foundation; activism; gay liberation movement; homosexual law reform; human rights; politics; transcript online
DATE: 11 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison talks about the Gay Liberation movement in New Zealand.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi, I'm Doctor Alison Laurie. I was the General Women's Studies Programme director at Victoria University of Wellington. Uh, here in New Zealand for many years, I'm a writer, oral historian and lesbian and gay activist. Today I'm going to be looking at Gay liberation in New Zealand and what changes that made here In respect to legislative changes and social changes, the homosexual organisations [00:00:30] which emerged in the Postwar period were still largely on the model of organisations that had been developed earlier. They were interested in legal change. They were interested in providing some kinds of social opportunities for people and they did want greater acceptance. But they didn't really have an analysis of the society or and they never spoke about actually radically changing society. That was something which came [00:01:00] with the new baby boom generation. And when we speak about the baby boom generation, I think we should include people who were born from about 1940 people who were born during the war who don't have any experience of an earlier decade. Uh and so they grow up in that period after World War Two and after 1945 there's a great many of them as the soldiers return, uh, through until [00:01:30] about 1955 might be said to be the end of the period during which the baby boom generation are being born. New Zealand is very involved in World War Two, as it has been in World War One. A large number of men and some women are sent overseas to fight on various fronts, particularly in Europe and also in the South Pacific. So the experience for New Zealanders during World War Two is that the men are away [00:02:00] and they are being severely damaged. Um, not just physically in terms of being killed or being maimed, but they are being damaged psychologically because of the sorts of experiences they're having in very dreadful battles, uh, in many places. Meanwhile, back in New Zealand, the women are managing their own affairs, doing the kinds of jobs that men did do, uh, before they went away. [00:02:30] And, uh, just getting on with that when the generation returned in 1945 there are many difficulties for people getting together, even married people. A stranger comes into the house. Perhaps there's Children that were born before he went away. Or perhaps there's Children that have been born while he's been away, which is more complicated, whatever. It's a difficult domestic situation. New Zealand had been through that once [00:03:00] before in the aftermath of World War One. So this time they made several attempts to try to get things on to a more even keel. So there was assistance for soldiers returning. There were state houses available for people. Uh, there were many kinds of social reforms which were intended to get domestic life back on an even keel and help people settle down in the aftermath of that terrible war. What this [00:03:30] meant was that the Children being born, uh, after the war or who were growing up after the war, were a generation who were especially privileged. Uh, I'm of that generation myself. We got free dental care in the through dental nurses and the dental clinics. We got free medical care. We got free milk in schools and apples. We got free education right through from kindergarten, right through primary school, secondary school and tertiary [00:04:00] education, too. So we learned to think of ourselves as important people for whom the war had been fought. It had been fought to give us a future. That's why they'd all been out there doing it. So that makes some difference, too. Uh, that this generation sees itself as having a special sense of entitlement. What also changes is that there are better communications. We've got a great, um, interest now in radio. [00:04:30] There's because, uh, American soldiers had been stationed here during World War two and they brought with them an appreciation, a particular appreciation of American pop music. Uh, and more records are being produced. All of these kinds of things are coming in, so there's a lot of new impulses. Also, travel has become cheaper. So more people are travelling. Many more ideas are starting to come into the country by the time we get into the 19 sixties. Many people the younger [00:05:00] generation, are becoming familiar with, uh, trends and overseas music, which have very different kinds of quite rebellious messages. Uh, in particular rock and roll, which has a great following. It's popular throughout the world, makes a big impact here within a short space of time. We've got our own rock and roll bands, and the messages are coming out of that. Then there are messages from groups like the Beatles. Uh, and then you get all kinds of messages coming from the United States [00:05:30] with people like Bob Dylan. The songs like The Times they are changing the kinds of folk music which brings really radical and interesting kinds of messages among films you get films like A Rebel Without a Cause, James Dean coming earlier and that in that decade promoting other kinds of ideas and certainly a feeling that things can be changed. There's also in the aftermath of World War Two, set up by Eleanor Roosevelt, Um, and and others a commitment [00:06:00] to human rights. Uh, the A commitment to the fact that people there are such a thing as human rights and people are not going to be treated in that terrible way again, as we have seen in World War Two with the genocide, the killing of Jews, the mass murder, uh, that those kinds of things are not going to happen. So this generation grows up with that kind of knowledge, and within a short space of time, you start to get movements like flower power, the new left make love, not war, and then you get very strong, [00:06:30] uh, movement anti-war movement, particularly against the increasing war in Vietnam and the organisation of young people. And there's a big population of young people. It's a big generation, and this bulge generation has actually made a big difference as it's moved through the decades. Uh, it starts to make itself felt in the 19 sixties, so ideas about women's liberation and gay liberation can't be seen in isolation. [00:07:00] They are very different. Part of this whole movement, which starts really with black civil rights in the United States, moves on to ideas about women's liberation because women who are involved in the civil rights struggle see themselves as being treated actually really badly, so begin to prioritise their own circumstance. This is also true of gay people in the United States being involved in those movements, suddenly starting to think. But, hey, what about us? And what happens then? In 1969 [00:07:30] is homosexual men and women at the Stonewall Inn in New York riot, uh, against the police raiding the bar, and this is said to be the beginnings of gay liberation. Of course, as Harry Hay has said, uh, that wonderful, uh, originator of much gay activism in the United States, he said. Through the 19 fifties and the 19 sixties, we laid a powder trail which could be lit at the Stonewall Inn in 1969. [00:08:00] So it does build upon the earlier organising, and we shouldn't think these things come out of nowhere. But certainly there's a different mood afoot, and the mood is that social change is possible. And it's also another way, as gay liberation starts to form within within a very short space of time. The slogans are we're here to bring out the lesbian and gay man and everybody's head. Uh, and gay is good. Gay is proud and a big chart of people. We are [00:08:30] innocent. We are innocent. Uh, which is very important because people have been up until then and trying to think of themselves really as bad people that they really were doing something wrong. But now people are that generation are saying we are innocent. We haven't done anything wrong. Uh, and so things begin to change that Galib is introduced into New Zealand in 1972. Um, a Maori, uh, lesbian activist, uh, has refused [00:09:00] a visa to the United States. Uh, because she is known as a homosexual, So a meeting is called at Auckland University. And that's the beginnings of gay liberation within a within, uh, just a few hours, there's, uh, a gay liberation branch started there and within within the next month. The Galib branches start right throughout the country in Wellington, Christchurch, Dunedin and Palmerston North and other smaller provincial centres. And it just goes like wildfire and [00:09:30] very influenced by these new ideas from the United States and things that are happening in Europe. Communications are much better. You can find out very quickly about things that are happening. It's still all pre the Internet or anything like that. So it's not that fast. But the ideas spread very quickly. The ideas of gay liberation are that homosexuals are not asking for acceptance. In fact, the criticism now is of heterosexuality. Something is really wrong with heterosexuality. [00:10:00] It's not an equal relationship. Why, I mean in women getting together when they clearly have so little in common. And of course, this generation has observed that in their own houses, these great difficulties in that generation coming back from war silent, damaged men, women who really resented this man coming back and taking over, uh, a a good deal of separation between men and women, clearly having difficulty working out those heterosexual relationships. So this generation of of of homosexuals [00:10:30] are saying, What's so good about heterosexuality? You know, we don't we get involved in that look at it, and at the same time we have women separation, where the heterosexual women and women separation are trying to work out ways that hetero heterosexual relationships could be better could be made more equal. How could men change? How how must women change? And meanwhile, in both of these organisations, something else very interesting happens. Uh, because both in [00:11:00] women's liberation, which starts, uh, in this country. Uh, the first Women's Liberation Front club forms in 1970 by students at Victoria University of Wellington and from 1971 women's liberation starts throughout the country, and by about 1973 women in the women's liberation groups, Uh, lesbians and the women's liberation groups are starting to feel that heterosexual feminists are discriminating against them. They're saying, Oh, don't tell people you're a lesbian. [00:11:30] Everyone will think we're lesbians, so lesbians are not feeling very happy about that and lesbians working in gay liberation. As more men join Galib as happened elsewhere and and more conservative men get involved in Galib, lesbians and gay liberation groups start to feel that the men are being very sexist, that they're actually being asked to do washing up and make cups of coffee. And the men are going to do interesting things like make speeches and determine policy. So they're not feeling very happy either. So [00:12:00] from these groups, lesbians organise separately. And the first separately organised lesbian group is, um, she, uh, sisters for Hoople Equality, um, known as she And that starts firstly in Christchurch in 1973 and then with the branch in Wellington. No branch starts in Auckland. They still call themselves Gay Women Separation in Auckland, but they still separate from the men. Uh, so these groups [00:12:30] form and are particularly influenced also by overseas theory. Uh, quote, uh, writers like Martha Shelley from the United States, which, uh, things like in a society where men oppress women to be lesbian as a sign of mental health, because who would want to be in a relationship with someone who's oppressing you? That's not healthy. No, one would should be in a relationship like that or quoting uh, writers like Joel Johnson, who was very influential, Um, with all women and lesbian except [00:13:00] those who don't realise it yet. Um, and ideas of that kind uh, the assistance for homophobic equality produced the first that we know of lesbian magazine in this country, which is known as circle. And that's put out the first issue of it in December 1973. Uh, and the first groups were certainly not separatist. The circle was sold in the street. We would take it out and sell it in the streets, and we'd sell it to men as well. We'd [00:13:30] say, Do you live with a woman or have you got any women friends? Buy this and give it to them And the magazine was reproducing, actually quite radical articles from elsewhere. But, um, that was, uh, we We thought at that point that a wide circulation would be very good. So these are the first kinds of groups and what these groups these groups are certainly looking beyond simple decriminalisation. They want to see a radical change in society. A change in gender relations. Um, [00:14:00] all kinds of reforms that will totally change society. And they see very strong connections between sexuality, race, class, ability, gender, all of these things. They see all of this as being interlinked. So these are the politics really of deconstructing all of the reasons that some people might be discriminated against in society. We should also remember that here in [00:14:30] New Zealand, Maori, both men and women have been very important. Uh uh, participants and leaders within many of the social networks, especially in the cities as well as in the countryside. And once again, in the beginnings of these more radical groups, we see Maori, uh, in the forefront of, uh, or thinking about how these groups should be organised. How? How can things be done differently so that everybody gets, [00:15:00] uh, gets an equal chance to fulfil themselves to and to have the kinds of rights that they should have in society. So in my next talk, I'll talk about how, uh, this this does lead on to legislative change and also to which is perhaps even more important, the kinds of social changes which make it possible for everybody to whether they're in a same sex relationship or not to lead a fulfilled life without feeling all the time that they're going [00:15:30] to be discriminated against or that they're not as good as other people.

IRN: 241
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_frances_hodgkins.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004058
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089352
TITLE: Frances Hodgkins
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1860s; Alison Laurie; Dunedin; Frances Hodgkins; Gay Line Wellington Trust; Queer History 101; Rule Foundation; arts; lesbian; transcript online; visual arts
DATE: 11 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison talks about the New Zealand painter Frances Hodgkins.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi. I'm Doctor Alison Laurie. I was the Gent and women's Studies programme director at Victoria University of Wellington here in New Zealand for many years. I'm a writer, oral historian and lesbian and gay activist. Today I'm going to be looking at Francis Mary Hodgkins, a famous New Zealand woman painter. And I'm going to be considering her painting and her life, uh, in the context of [00:00:30] her close friendships with women and support that she received from men whom we know were homosexual. And what's interesting about this is the degree to which, uh in the period in which she lived, a woman living a conventional heterosexual life as a married woman would have been able to have the output of paintings that Hodgkins was able [00:01:00] to do and to lead the kind of life she was able to lead and learn her craft the way in which she managed to achieve. She lived between 18 69 and 1947. She was one of a number of expatriate New Zealanders during the early 20th century who lived in Britain or Europe, where it was easier to find support of friendship circles for, [00:01:30] uh, their lives as artists or as people attracted to their own sex. I believe that the primacy of women at Hodgkin's life was very important, as also was the financial and emotional support given to her by her male homosexual as well as her lesbian friends, Uh, and that these people made her life possible. Uh, she was born in Dunedin on the 20th of April 18 [00:02:00] 69. Her mother, Rachel Hodgkins, and her father, lawyer and artist William Matthew Hodgkins. Francis had four brothers, William, Percy, Gilbert and Frank, and one sister, Isabelle. She attended, uh, the Dunedin School of Art Classes taught by July, uh, who came to New Zealand and taught art here. And then she took pupils herself, and she [00:02:30] had a number of close women friends, uh, in Dunedin. At that time, she was also a member of a Dunedin Women's Club, the club. Her father died in 18 98 and in 19 01. She left for England, where she soon became friends with the New Zealand artist Dorothy Kate Richmond, and they became very close friends and, uh, were very important to one another. [00:03:00] Uh, Dorothy Kate Richmond, known as Dollar, was born in 18 61. So she's a bit older and she lived till 1935. The friendship probably started at Norman Gaston's art classes in, uh, in France that this is where France is. And, uh, who was age 32 had left New Zealand. And Richmond, who was older, had resigned as artists at [00:03:30] Nelson College for girls to study in Paris. Their meeting had been initiated by, uh, do Richmond, who wrote, uh, to Frances. I'm looking forward to meeting you with real joy. I think companionship doubles the pleasure and harbours the sorrows of life. After being at Gaston School, they travelled together to Paris, Italy, Uh, and Tangier and London. Um, Richmond, uh, had had a rubber bath, uh, with her [00:04:00] and, uh, a lot of other, uh, conveniences. And they did quite a bit of travelling. Uh, Francis wrote to her mother, Rachel. The most delightful part is that Miss Richmond is coming with me. And then she also wrote I am a lucky beggar to have her as a travelling companion. And then she wrote, uh, Miss Richmond has decided not to go to England, so we shall not lose sight of each other even for a few weeks, I have grown so fond of her. I don't know how I am ever going [00:04:30] to let her go. She is one of these people whom you want always with you. She wrote to her friend Kate Rattray, Uh, later that year that Miss Richmond was the dearest woman with the most beautiful face and expression I think I have ever seen. And she wrote to her sister that the other students called Miss Richmond the divine lady. When I am particularly down, Miss Richmond comes and tucks me up. She goes to England today, and it's very sad saying goodbye to her face like hers, even for a short [00:05:00] time. I wish you could see her at night with a black dress with a crimson fish shoe. I have insisted on her wearing it every night, then to her married sister Isabelle, she wrote on the Sixth of November. Miss Richmond's letters are poems. She is the dearest piece of perfection I have ever met, and unlike most perfection, not in the least tiring to live up to. We were to have started for San today, but I felt too seedy to travel in cases like this. We congratulate ourselves [00:05:30] that we have no husbands to consider. Francis had a close relationship with her family, and she wrote frequently. She could not have deleted all references to Richmond and her letters. And indeed, writing about her travels with an older woman companion as chaperone could have reassured her family of the respectability of her life. The letter seemed to be carefully constructed with her natural delight and joy at having Richmond with her bursting through in the [00:06:00] in. These quoted extracts on their return from Europe in 19 02, After a joint exhibition in New Lynn, the two women lived together in Cornwall. Then, for the first time in over a year, they were dwell. Francis stayed in London with two other friends, while Richmond went to Inverness, Scotland, to see Constance Charlotte Aley, a woman who was 10 years older than her. She had met Constance in 18 97 when she was [00:06:30] visiting New Zealand with her friend Margaret Sheehan, and had stayed with her before in 1900. Francis and Richmond had both stayed with Ashley in 19 01 at San Remo when, as was being treated for tuberculosis and Francis wrote to Dorothy from France in July 19 02. I was indeed sorry to hear of the return of Miss Leys trouble. It does not look as if Scotland was quite the best place for her, does it? Please give her my love and tell her I didn't and the least grudge you to her. [00:07:00] At first, I felt a little furious, but slept over it and calmed down. I don't see much of Lord Nichols nowadays. She is very much taken up with Miss Crompton, and they paint and ride a lot together in this extract. Francis seems jealous of Ashley, but anxious to reassure Richmond that her own friendship with Maud Nichols is not a love affair, as Nichols is so involved with Crompton. But she could not resist informing her mother that Miss Richmond is still in Scotland nursing her sick friend, Miss Ashley. It is horrid without [00:07:30] her. Then on 30th September, she wrote in some detail to her sister M Richmond and I go to London in a fortnight, and after that, our ways be separate. I don't know what I'm going to do without her. We've taken a long time to consider what is best for us both. She has only another year and must make the most of it. And she feels she must get more studio work. So, Mr Garston, with the knowledge full upon him that he was breaking up our happier home, conscientiously advised her to go back to Penzance. I'm sure it's for her own good. [00:08:00] And she would be unselfish enough to give up her time to me and go wherever I wanted if we didn't put pressure on her and insist on her considering her own interest. So I shall be alone once more by 19 03. Francis was in Tangier where she wrote to Richmond. Of course, I know that you would rather nurse one of her Miss Leys empty envelopes than read the outpourings of my innermost soul. However, I mustn't expect too much from these letters. It seems that Francis was well aware [00:08:30] of of Richmond's love affair with Contant Ley, which seems to have gone on for three years between 18 98 until 19 01 when she'd become involved with Francis and of its continuation at the time of writing, deciding on what was best for us both could be interpreted as a typical triangular relationship in which nobody can quite decide how to resolve the impasse. In 19 03, however, the two of them returned to New Zealand together and in 19 04 [00:09:00] through to 19 06, they established a studio on the corner of Lampton Key and Bowen Street and did the carriage house. And they gave a joint exhibition in 19 04. And they took in a few pupils, uh, including, uh, Edith Kathleen Bend, who was, uh, Catherine Mansfield's lover in Wellington during 19 06 19 08 And our other students. Uh, also during this time, uh, Francis had announced her engagement to a man, [00:09:30] Thomas Boton Wilby, whom she had met briefly on the ship coming back to New Zealand. But they they became engaged by post and broke it off by post, uh, the year later, uh, and they don't really seem to have had much of a, uh, relationship, uh, at all. Then Frances Hodgkins, uh, returns. She left. She leaves Richmond and she leaves New Zealand in 19 06. And although she does come back briefly, uh, in 1912 [00:10:00] and stays for nearly a year and sees Richmond during that period. Uh, it's unclear what their relationship would have been at that time. She determined to go back and, uh, during her life living in Britain. Two of the most important friends were Dorothy Jane Saunders and Hannah Ritchie, who were, uh, friends from Manchester. She had another close friend, Lucy Wham, who was a generous benefactor also, [00:10:30] uh, from Manchester. And these people helped her both financially and also to get, uh, various amounts of work she may have had a relationship with. Um, with any of these people, it's difficult to know toward the end of her life. Uh, she has another very close woman friend. Um who, uh, uh, Amy Kraus, Uh, who lives in Dorset. And, uh, that's, [00:11:00] uh, a very important friend, uh, to her as well. She also had very important, uh, male, Uh uh, homosexual friends in particular, Arthur Hanes and Cedric Morris. And she knew others in their homosexual circles. For example, the writer, uh, Jeffrey Gora and his friend Arthur Elton. And they're very important to her. Uh, they help her. They helped her for over 30 years, and, uh, they helped her during times when [00:11:30] she was very poor. Uh, at the age of 63 she was found in her basement studio with the water and light turned off. She'd pawned everything and was lying in a bed covered in newspapers. Uh ha Arthur Hanes rescued her, motored her down to his mother's house in the country, fitted her up and sent her to work. Morris, who'd become a leading painter of the Post-war generation, did what he could to help Frances Hodgkins become established as a painter. He arranged art exhibitions, [00:12:00] proposed her membership in the influential seven and five society and helped to meet Saint George's Gallery Director uh Arthur Howell, who exhibited and sold her paintings. Later. McCormick, who was it was an important New Zealand biographer for her, helps to popularise her work in New Zealand. So it's interesting, and it's interesting to compare her life with that of her sister. Uh, Isabelle. Initially, her sister had been thought to be the better painter. Uh, but [00:12:30] her sister married, and, uh, she married a, uh, William Field who was a member of Parliament. After that, she never painted seriously. She just painted small scenes on the coast for sale, which and sold. These and her husband used the money to buy more land and property, so she did not make the same kind of successful art career as Francis did. So it's an interesting comparison between them. Francis died in England, and later her nephew brought her ashes back, [00:13:00] and she is buried in the field family to at with her sister and her mother is also there. And that's quite a place of pilgrimage for those who are interested in Frances Hodgkins, who is indeed one of our greatest painters.

IRN: 233
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_early_groups.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004057
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089351
TITLE: Early lesbian and gay groups
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1960s; Alison Laurie; Auckland; Gay Line Wellington Trust; Queer History 101; Rule Foundation; Wellington; gay; lesbian; organisation; social; transcript online; venues
DATE: 11 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison talks about early lesbian and gay groups in New Zealand.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi, I'm Doctor Alison Laurie. I was the General Women's Studies Programme director at Victoria University of Wellington. Uh, here in New Zealand for many years, I'm a writer, an oral historian and a lesbian and gay activist. Today I'm going to be looking at lesbian and gay organising in New Zealand and early law reform attempts. I want to start off by thinking about the first that we know of [00:00:30] kinds of lesbian or gay organisations or organising uh, that started in Europe and where possibly some New Zealanders may have been connected to these or organisations. New Zealand was never isolated. Boats came here all the time bringing information from especially England. People received newspapers and magazines. Uh, they got books when boats [00:01:00] came, it was very important. So this country has never been isolated. It's never not known what was going on elsewhere. Hirschfeld, uh, appears to be one of the first, uh, people to start formally organising in Germany. Uh, this was tremendously important. And of course there were were some groups and books and substantial ideas happening earlier than that. But it's [00:01:30] it's really, uh, the his scientific humanitarian Committee, which was founded in 18 97 in Berlin, which is the most influential. Hield edited the yearbooks for sexual Intermediaries and in 1919 he founded the Institute for Sexual Science. Also in 18 97 an Englishman, George Ives, established the order of which was a secret homosexual society initiated in England, that became a worldwide [00:02:00] organisation. The British Society for the Study of Sex Psychology was founded in 1914 by George Ives, Edward Carpenter, Hirschfeld and others. This was later affiliated to the World League for Sexual Reform, which was initiated in 1928. And there were various other formal organisations throughout Europe, most of which produced publications as well as many homosexual bars and clubs for both men and women. And it seems very likely that some New [00:02:30] Zealanders were members of these organisations and it's very likely that those who travelled to Europe and many people did not just wealthy middle class people but working class people who worked on ships, uh, did other kinds of jobs overseas that these people would know of the social venues and may have known of these organisations and of the various ideas that the organisations uh discussed and published. Certainly it's known that some [00:03:00] New Zealanders had connections with Edward Carpenter. He published some very influential books in the early part of the century, the intermediate sex, and we know that people who were friends of his came to New Zealand. And there there are connections with Carpenter. We know that with the women's movement of the time, uh, that there were very strong links between, uh, the various women's movements and New Zealand, of course, the first country in the world where women got [00:03:30] the vote from 18 93 and there were strong links, women travelling to and fro. And certainly even in those times there were strong same sexual, whether we call this lesbian or not friendships between women. So there's plenty of opportunity for the interchange of ideas. All of that organising in Europe comes to an end when the Nazis come to power. Uh, it finishes in Germany itself in 1933 [00:04:00] as the Nazis are voted into power and as they advance through Europe, uh, occupying the various countries. One of the first things that happens is the destruction of lesbian and gay social venues, magazines and certainly of those organisations. One of the most famous pieces of film shows, uh, Storm troopers throwing books onto a bonfire and that is outside the Institute for Sexual Science Fields Institute. [00:04:30] Uh, in Berlin, the books that are being burnt with the records and books about homosexuality and transgender. Uh uh, Matters were all being burnt. The burning of books. Usually we're not told when we see those those scenes as part of documentaries. We're not told exactly whose books they were. Hirschfeld himself escaped because he was out of the country but he died within two years. So that's the destruction of everything. We move forward then [00:05:00] to 1945 and we see the beginnings again of those organisations, uh, in Europe and the big organisations are formed again The only one that survived right through the war years. Uh, this is Swiss Swiss organisation, the circle decrees Um but the first one to start up again is the COC in Holland, which starts in 1946. Then the Scandinavian countries begin again from 1948 with organisations [00:05:30] called the Organisation of 1948. The organisations are set up by the by people who had known about the organisations before the war. Uh, but as time goes on, the knowledge about a lot of those organisations is lost as younger people from the baby boom generation come of age and begin flooding into those organisations and taking them over. Then a lot of the knowledge about what had gone before, [00:06:00] uh seems to get lost. It isn't until we get a generation of historians coming in the from the 19 seventies that a lot of that information is available to us again. The other very important thing is that the is that organisations important organisations are founded in the United States. That's one which is founded in Los Angeles and the, uh which is founded by Harry Hay, who [00:06:30] is a Communist educator. Uh, he uses the strategy that he used for communist organising to set up cells, uh, so that people in each cell don't know about anybody else. So if they asked to give information to the police, then they can't give much because they only know who's in their own cell. So this becomes very popular and the starts branches in many parts of the United States, especially California. Uh, and, uh, when [00:07:00] a conference is held there are some hundreds of people at it, and the first thing they do is expel Harry Hay because he's a communist and the Cold War is beginning So they don't want a commie, uh, running their organisation. And then the next thing that happens is that Harry Hay is expelled from the Communist Party for moral turpitude. He goes on, of course, to become a founder of the radical theories and have a wonderful life as a gay activist and has been so important to so many things in the United States. [00:07:30] Lesbian organisations also begin. Uh, the daughters of, uh, begins, uh, in the, uh, late uh, 19 forties, also in the United States. And then as we move on to the 19 sixties, we get organisations uh, a lesbian organisation, uh, beginning the Minorities Research Group founded by Esme Langley in London. And that's the first British one that's founded. So what do these organisations want to [00:08:00] do? Both the lesbian ones and the and the early gay ones. In fact, in this country it's not appropriate to call them gay because that word isn't known here. Uh, what is it they want to do? One of the important things they want to do is to reform the law. They are also slightly beginning to talk about human rights, but not in any great detail at this stage, really. They just want some basic kind of acceptance. And they also [00:08:30] want to provide, uh, situations in ways that, uh, people who are interested in relationships with their own sex can meet together, have a nice social life, uh, support one another and so on. As I've said, it's unclear how many New Zealanders would have been involved in the pre, uh, World War two, organisations. And so far as we know, there were not any attempts to form organisations in [00:09:00] New Zealand Prior to that time, we do know that there would have been places that, uh, men and women met, uh, theatre groups, for example, music groups through church groups. Certainly, uh, women would have had opportunities to meet through the many women, different women's organisations. And we have to remember that in an earlier time you might have needed to explain to your family how come you knew people who are these new friends so that [00:09:30] it would have been useful to have met them through a gardening club, a theatre club, a church group, something of that sort. So so people would have been quite active in those kinds of networks. We certainly know that there were other kinds of social networks, uh, through sporting clubs, and we know that for men the men would have been starting to meet in pubs, meeting one another there, perhaps in parks, perhaps in public toilets, those kinds of ways that were not necessarily [00:10:00] available to women because women still at that time, uh, couldn't really have too much of a public life wandering the streets on their own in ways that men could. So there are definitely differences between what's available for men and what's available for women. Now, in 1961 we get the first that we know of formal organisation. And that's the Dorian Society, which is founded by me and all of whom have had experience, [00:10:30] uh, in other countries in particular. Jack Goodwin, he's, uh, he's lived overseas. He's had experience there. He knows about what's possible in other countries. Uh, Claude Tanner, Uh, these are some of the names of the people who were involved in that they start the club. And within a year or so they form the legal subcommittee, which begins to talk about, uh, changing [00:11:00] the law. Decriminalising, Same sexual activity. Uh, in New Zealand, women are not welcome as members of the Dorian. It is an organisation for men. Uh, but what happens next is that the homosexual law Reform Society gets formed here. It's an It's an outcome of the legal subcommittee of the Dorian and this organisation. Many people join it. In [00:11:30] fact, it's formed on the model of the homosexual law Reform Society in Britain, uh, so that it has patrons who are not homosexuals themselves. They are important people in the church and so on. And these are the vice presidents. And then it has a committee of men and women who do the work. And it encourages all sorts of people to join not only lesbians and gay men, but, um, heterosexual people as well. It's important to say at this point that [00:12:00] the terminology that people would have used still at this stage refer to themselves in New Zealand Was camp generally spelled with a K, uh, with jokes often made about camping in tents Or, you know, this kind of camping, and both men and women referred to themselves in this way. Gay was a word used in the United States. It seems to have been introduced here toward the late 19 sixties. Early 19 seventies lesbian was a term that was known, but no women [00:12:30] would have wanted to call themselves lesbians. It would would have been thought of as quite a shocking word. Uh, so that starts after the introduction of lesbian and gay liberation and, uh, lesbian feminism. So it's first from this point with the formation of the Homosexual Law Reform Society that we get discussions about how the law might be changed and ideas about seeing if there are any politicians who might be [00:13:00] interested in, uh, looking at, uh, law reform. If there are ways in which that could be discussed, uh, at a parliamentary level, and in my next talk, I'll talk about the kinds of reforms that were suggested and how we moved through to actually change the law.

IRN: 420
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_criminal_cases.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004056
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089350
TITLE: Criminal cases
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1950s; Alison Laurie; Aotearoa New Zealand; Charles Mackay; Christchurch; Gay Line Wellington Trust; Juliet Hulme; Pauline Parker; Queer History 101; Rule Foundation; Walter D'Arcy Cresswell; Wellington; Whanganui; courts; crime; hate crime; homophobia; law; transcript online
DATE: 11 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison highlights some queer-related criminal cases in New Zealand.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi. I'm Doctor Alison Laurie. I was the Gender and Women Studies Programme director at Victoria University of Wellington here in New Zealand for many years. I'm a writer, an oral historian and a lesbian and gay activist. Today I'm going to be looking at crime cases as they've involved uh, lesbian and gay people. In this country. There's always been a an association of homosexuality and crime. Uh, male homosexual acts were considered [00:00:30] criminal. Lesbians were often considered criminal by association. There's been that idea of criminality involved in it. What I'm more interested in here is local cases where lesbians and gays have themselves been the victims of crimes and where that often hasn't been considered, uh, to be the case, by particularly by the media and sometimes [00:01:00] by the courts. A very significant local case, uh, was that of Wanganui Mayor uh, Charles Evan Mackey. Uh, he was an important mayor. He strongly supported the arts. Uh, he was a popular man. Uh, however, in May 1920 he was arrested for the attempted murder of the poet Walter Darcy Criswell, who was homosexual. [00:01:30] It was alleged that Mackay shot Cresswell for threatening to expose Mackay's homosexuality. The defence argued that he suffered from homosexual monomania, having made efforts to cure himself and consulted doctors and meta physicians. Mackay was found guilty, and he was sentenced to 15 years imprisonment. This case resulted in widespread anti homosexual feeling in Wanganui and Prejudice Against the Sergeant Art Gallery, which Mackay had helped found. And it also influenced [00:02:00] how Edith Collier's work was received. Um was later taken up by the Bloomsbury set. Um, and when he went to England, uh, in the in 1930 following the publication of his autobiography of Poets Progress, which didn't actually mention anything about the Wui affair. So that's an interesting aspect of him. It's a question of why he attempted [00:02:30] to blackmail Mackay. How come that situation emerged, what it was that he thought he was doing. Some think that there was evidence, uh, of political, uh, connections who had suggested that he do this? Whatever was the case, it really destroyed Mackay. He served his time in prison, then left the country and died overseas, so that's a significant case. [00:03:00] Another interesting case is the 1935 Mario case, and that began the connection of lesbianism with murder in New Zealand, Eric Mario was convicted of killing his wife, Thelma, because of her lesbian relationship with Freda. Stark and lesbians was depicted as part of a loose living theatrical world likely to result in jealousy and murder later in her life. Freda Stark said that her sexual relationship [00:03:30] with Thelma was the most important relationship of her life and that it had begun. In fact, before Thelma had married Eric Mario that she'd married him because the theatre company had collapsed and that, uh, they were. They continued their relationship often when he was at work in the during the court case. Uh, it's the The relationship was given as the motive for Eric murdering [00:04:00] the he did so by administering doses of sedative to her and she died. The newspapers of the Time reported the case sensationally, and they headlined the phrase abnormal girl. Frieda Stark later said that when the newspapers were at their worst, she could not go into Queen Street as people would recognise me because of the pictures in the paper calling out there she is and following her, and when she went into a shop, there'd be people out waiting outside for me to come out. The jury [00:04:30] found Eric Mario guilty of murder and he was sentenced to death. But after several appeals, his sentence was eventually reduced to life imprisonment. Uh, subsequently, people have tried to exonerate, uh, Mario, uh, though I think it's fairly clear that he was aware of their relationship and that that was a motivation for him to attempt to murder her. But it's a very sensational case, and that certainly drew the attention of people to this connection with [00:05:00] lesbianism and murder. This theme reemerges, uh, 20 years later, in 1954 when Juliet Hume, age 15, and Pauline Parker, age 16, killed Nora Parker, Pauline's mother in Victoria Park, Christchurch. This was sensationalised because of the ages of the girls. They were described by by some of the media as the world's worst murderers. Uh, which is extraordinary in a time when we've seen mass murder and things of that kind. [00:05:30] And they were depicted, uh, by as lesbians by both the prosecution and the defence, with the prosecution calling them dirty minded girls and the defence uh, saying that, uh, they they suffered from, uh because lesbianism was a pathological condition symptomatic of communicated insanity. So that was another case where the connection of, uh, lesbian as men murder those two girls were sentenced [00:06:00] to five years imprisonment. They were imprisoned, actually at Her Majesty's pleasure, but were released after five years in 1959 and have subsequently led quite blameless lives. There were other mentions in the newspaper. There's an interesting report in 1955 in the year after this case with the New Zealand pictorial reports Gangs of homosexuals in Auckland living together for the sake of perversion, [00:06:30] you can see these warped brain men and women too, wandering about the streets or sitting idly in night cafes. Auckland has too many of them. Homosexuals have a strict code of Essex all of their own. They fight among themselves, like Kilkenny cats. For this reason, a group of homosexuals is always controlled by the Queen bee, whose word is absolutely final. Others in the sect are Martha, who dress as women. Arthurs, who adopt the normal male role, and butchers who stand in either way. Homosexuals and BC [00:07:00] lesbians and the like are largely only a degrading menace, however undesirable to themselves. So clearly, this kind of depiction is one of of criminality. People, uh, of whom you could expect anything of them now. Other cases, Uh, an earlier case, Uh, in 1944 a 19 year old New Zealand soldier was acquitted of the murder of a 25 year old American soldier because he claimed that the American had made homosexual advances [00:07:30] to him. Then in 1960 Roy Jackson, a waiter at the Codo coffee bar in Auckland, which was a meeting place for, uh, both, uh, camp men and women, uh, lesbians and gay men. Uh, he was killed when he fell from the deck of the, which was docked at Napier after being assaulted by true seamen who were acquitted of manslaughter. Uh, Roy Jackson had had tri down to Napier to see his lover, who was [00:08:00] working on the ship. And as he was trying to get onto the ship, he was thrown by the true seamen onto the dock and killed. The judge commented it was stretching things a bit to say that it was unlawful for the accused to remove Jackson from the ship. As after all, it was their home. The, uh, Auckland, uh, camp community took up a collection for his burial. That was an important case in 1960 but the acquittal sent a signal that killing homosexuals might not result in a conviction. These cases foreshadowed the 1964 [00:08:30] Hagley Park case, where six youth aged between 15 and 17 years were acquitted on a charge of manslaughter. The prosecution alleging they'd gone to Hagley Park in Christchurch with the purpose of finding a queer and bashing him. The homosexual victim Charles From, died from his injuries. The youths claiming he'd made a homosexual approach to them and horrified by this they'd accidentally be beaten him to death. These cases demonstrated the possible consequences of any form of homosexuality, [00:09:00] and the verdicts were consistent with the 1967 acquittal of Doreen Davis for the murder of Ray Pet. And this is a very famous case. Uh, in November 1966 nursing sister Ray Ray Joy pet, aged 40 of the Royal New Zealand Nursing Corps, was found dead in her bed with a deep wound in her neck at the Royal New Zealand Air Force Base. At another critically ill nurse was in Auckland Hospital [00:09:30] being treated for an overdose of drugs. This nurse, sister Dorian Ellen Davis, aged 30 was tried for Pet's murder at Auckland in March 1967. The prosecution alleged that Davis had cut Pet's throat with a scalpel and left the room via the window and drove back to her quarters, where she took an overdose of barbiturates, her motive for the murder being conflict in their lesbian relationship. Davis was defended by Kevin Ryan, the defence lawyer, and [00:10:00] denied all charges, insisting that PET had cut her own throat. There are some suggestions that the military may have tidied the women's rooms before calling the police and arranging Davis's defence as she was going to be charged in a civilian court, and that they may have hoped for a verdict of suicide as it would be less damaging than murder. Pet served with the Royal New Zealand Nursing Corps from 1954 moving to the Air Force Base in February 64. Uh Davis [00:10:30] joined the nursing corps in 62 and met Pet in 66 at the Hobsonville base. With their relationship developed another nurse testifying that because Davis visited PET at night, she felt disgusted and reported them. Consequently, Davis was was to be transferred to Wigram. Uh, the prosecution produced two unsigned letters alleging that Davies wrote to pet. I do love that smile, darling. More and more each time we met and meet and please don't ever deceive, Darling, you mean too [00:11:00] much to me and I to you. The defence argued that Davis was befriended by a woman, outwardly kind and sympathetic, but inwardly a hunting lesbian. Davis testified that Pete was generous and kind at first. However, she said that before I knew it, Raylan was in bed with me. I got a fright. At first she looked different, she said. She wanted me. She tried to kiss me and did. She looked like a man, not a woman. I finally gave in to rain. And on the night of Pele's death, Davis claimed Pet tried to prevent [00:11:30] her from leaving the room. The look I'd seen on Ramon's face was more domineering than I'd ever seen before. I told her just to leave me alone and I went to the door. Sister Pet was looking at me directly. She was sitting up in bed. The next thing I saw was this knife. I saw a lot of blood and that cut on her neck. So the defence, uh, lawyer Ryan argued that even if Davis had killed Pet, she did so in a state of automatism brought on by the shock of pet's, uh, lesbian advances. And Petty [00:12:00] was described as a con genital or essential lesbian, a smiling depressive, uh, and a hunting lesbian. And Davis was portrayed as an innocent seduced by pet. Uh, and she was found not guilty of that crime.

IRN: 658
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/carmen_jack_body.html
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089367
TITLE: Jack Body - Carmen - Songs and Dances of Desire
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Jack Body
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland Philharmonia Orchestra; Auckland Town Hall; Australia; Carmen Dances; Carmen Rupe; Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Douglas Lilburn; Georges Bizet; HIV / AIDS; Hugo Wolf; Jack Body; Kings Cross (Sydney); Mata Hari; Max Cryer; Michael Parmenter; Māori; New Zealand String Quartet; New Zealand Symphony Orchestra; Royal New Zealand Ballet; Songs of Dances and Desire: In Memoriam Carmen Rupe; Sydney; The Balcony / Le Balcon; Waiata Wahine; Warwick Broadhead; Wellington; aversion therapy; coming out; composition; crime; cross dressing; dance; death; drag; gay; icons; identity; music; performance; racism; sex work; theatre; transgender; transphobia; transvestism
DATE: 24 November 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Jack talks about writing Songs and Dances of Desire - a work inspired by Carmen Rupe and Georges Bizet's opera Carmen.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, it's scandalous if there's any New Zealander of a certain age who who doesn't know who Carmen was? Um, he was a transvestite, and it's quite interesting. I happen to know that to be true, because his book suggests that he he was transgendered, that he had an operation. But when I interviewed him, he said, Well, no, actually, he got cold feet and didn't have the operation. So he he retained his male [00:00:30] pulse, although it from all appearances, he became a woman. So it's very interesting. Um, but he became a an extraordinary icon in in Wellington, particularly. He also lived in Auckland and in also for periods in Sydney. And that's where he lived his latter years. Um, and he he was, um well, a person of many parts, Um, he [00:01:00] in in talking about his experiences in his book and in his interview, um, for people interested in being transvestite, um, it really marginalised them in society. And there weren't opportunities to, um to have a regular job or career who wanted to to employ a man dressed as a woman. So, um, he had to make his own way. Um, and, uh, that [00:01:30] began that there were some jobs in in in Auckland. I think he worked in the hospital for a while, um, as an orderly. But, um, the streets, the streets, you had to make it on the streets. Prostitution was really one of the only options for for such people. But, um, by by transforming himself, um, and setting goals, he he was able to, [00:02:00] um, set up Wellington's first club, a nightclub. Employ people, um, and become a sort of cultural centre in Wellington, Visited by by everybody, um, politicians, businessmen, um, and one would say, uh, the straight community loved going to the balcony to be entertained by a Carmen and her girls. Um, and, uh, yes. I think this was sixties, the seventies. [00:02:30] It was really, um, the centre of of sort of, um a a naughty, exciting life of social life for for well, Antonians. And then he he also, uh, set up a coffee bar, um, again, employing people and and and showing a very natural business sense. Being able to do that to, to raise the money and to set it up to [00:03:00] to to do the interior design, to run the show effectively to make money. Um, a little prostitution is still on the side. It was it. It was a very, um, uh, very smart lifestyle and and, as I say on the edge, But friends of, of important and influential people at the same same time, right on the margins of of, um of a a proper, bourgeois, decent [00:03:30] society, but embraced by that society. It was a wonderful kind of mix. Um, so that was that was our common. Hm. And II. I had a little bit of contact in Wellington my early days, Um, visiting the balcony and the coffee shop. I don't know if I ever was introduced or shook his hand, but, um, I picked up a copy of his book. Um, it was, um, [00:04:00] sort of autobiography, but somebody wrote it based on his what he had to tell them. Um, and it's called having a ball. And it really moved me and and amazed me this story of a life. And I'm sure there are many secrets not in that book, but, um, there are There are lots of things in that book which are really astonishing and outrageous of. There are no there are no secrets from this person that this person [00:04:30] tells it all, um, or appears to, um, and I. I was struck by the courage of somebody who was really the I'm sure there were. There were transvestites, you know, on the streets before Carmen. But this was the first one to actually make it into the news and and to kind of make something of their lives. Um, uh, and it struck me that this was somebody [00:05:00] who knew no fear somebody who, um, was their own person. Um, uh, let's say, realised their own desires of who they want to be or to become, even if this was sometimes in the realm of fantasy, like taking the the the name Carmen. And this was because he knew of of Carmen as being this, um [00:05:30] uh, dangerous seductress, this gypsy. And so he saw himself as that in that role and being able to manipulate men and society through through that role. Um uh, and having power over people, I guess. I mean, if if you if you have no power, if you're disenfranchised, if you're marginalised and to look for ways to actually, um, re readjust that balance [00:06:00] and and find ways to function, and he did it very successfully. Was was very, um, respected and honoured. And many people say, Oh, yes, Carmen was my friend. Yes. Can you talk to me a wee bit about, um, I suppose labels and gender, uh, you've mentioned a couple of times referring Carmen to as he rather than she. And also the idea of [00:06:30] transvestite verse, transgender and I. I think for, um, a number of people they would go. Was Carmen just dressing up in women's clothing or car? Did she feel she was female? Oh, II, I think. Definitely. Um, So transgender people talk about this, and and I've recently read, um, Georgina by autobiography as well. Uh, and and she describes [00:07:00] how how, you know, you feel complete when you dress a book. And and I think, um, Carmen also talks about at a certain point saying This is it. This is who I am and never wearing a male attire again, like like to be to be dressed as a woman, to present yourself as a woman. That's that's who you are. Um, uh, I mean, I've read a bit about it, and it it said that um, many, [00:07:30] uh, transverse types are not gay. They they're men who who desire to to to present themselves as women because it releases them from the the pressures of being a man of the expectations of how men should behave. But their sexual incarnations still are heterosexual. But in Carmen's case, she she was gay. She she she liked men. She liked cock. She liked seducing men. Um, [00:08:00] so, yes, she was gay. But, um, I interviewed her, uh, when I was working on this project in the first in the first instance. And, um, it was interesting because her book, uh, finishes in the last chapter in hospital preparing herself for the operation. And so one presumes that that she was transgender, But she told me, actually, I got cold feet. [00:08:30] I never went through with the operation, but to all appearances, of course, she she has these huge breasts. Um, um, her hair was always mountainous. Um, and the way she presented herself was was absolutely as a woman. But it makes one aware that, you know, this whole issue of of gender and gender identification is very complicated. And especially when when one tries to ex express it out of, uh, normal [00:09:00] male female, um, lots of problems, lots of anguish, lots of issues. And and I think I mean, Carmen said that. And I've read this in of other instances, you know, having the the operation. It's a kind of step into the unknown because it it it it mightn't be very successful, you know? And you might end up all your life as a kind of, um, mutilated person feeling that you've actually you neither neither one or the other. And, uh, [00:09:30] so it's it's dangerous and difficult. And I think nowadays, I think even in Carmen's Day, there was, um, counselling to to to make sure that you understood where you were going and the dangers It was un unknown. Really? The results. Do you think Carmen would actually label herself in any way, Or did it just like she was just She was just Carmen. So she she, uh, given a name, of course, was Trevor and [00:10:00] I. I made some reference to her as Trevor, and she's never never known by that name again. And and even as a, uh, she wanted to be just Carmen, you know that this this um, personification of the the imaginary car that she had in her mind. Can you describe for me what it was like going to the balcony? Oh, this is long time ago. And, [00:10:30] um, I think the person who took me was Max Cryer. So that puts us into that. That's seen in a way, because Max is another extraordinary person, Um, of many, many talents. Um, in many circles of friends, one would say, um, it was upstairs, as I remember, and and of course, we weren't supposed to have alcohol, But, um, it was sort of under the table and and as Max [00:11:00] saying, You know, you have to experience this and, um, Carmen herself, saying that the people that went there were were often, uh, people from all levels of so well one say, upper levels of society. Um, who wanted a sort of a naughty night, um, to be entertained and, um uh, yes, to to have a sort of naughty experience. Um, but I think most [00:11:30] people are more, um, people will remember the the coffee shop. Uh, because that it was open all hours and it had all comers. And I think Carmen herself saw, especially the coffee shop, as a place where, um, she could employ, uh, transgender people and transvestites and and so on, Um and also that it was open all hours all through the night [00:12:00] so that, um, it it was a a sort of refuge for for people of the night to go and and relax and just feel comfortable. Really? So, uh, yes. Um, incredible public service, both both these institutions that she ran is, um and II, I think she she thought of it like that. And and many people experience like that as a as a as a place [00:12:30] place to go for to be. But also, uh, the the the the fringe people. Um, transgender people where they where they were they they knew that they had friends. At that time in the seventies. Were you out? Um, II, I guess I was always out in a sense. To To to friends. Family was a different matter. Um, and I, I suppose, [00:13:00] uh I mean, we we imagine my generation imagines that for young people today, it's a simple matter to be out, you know? But I'm sure every everybody's life is is different. Coming to terms with with sexual preferences and identity. Um, and I'm sure for some young people today, it's also traumatic. Um, I think quite early I I knew, but it was difficult, but II I kept [00:13:30] it to myself. I shared it with friends and I looked for lovers. Um, but, um, what struck me when reading Carmen's book? Is that the fearlessness of it? That that we especially in a in in generations when it was illegal, to to indulge in in sex with the same gender? Um, of course, one had to be secretive. It was very exciting, of course. And it made the the [00:14:00] chase and the the triumph even more delicious. But, um, but the fact is that one could be entrapped. One could go to prison. And III I met people who had had, um, a therapy. Um, I don't know if it had been divorced. Maybe it was a choice, You know, a version therapy, you know, making you vomited the thought of of of having sex with your own kind or, um, shock treatment. I mean, these things happened in those days. Um, [00:14:30] so this is the world that that Carmen grew up and and look what she did. She said I'm here and I'm me and like it or lump it and and totally, uh uh, Brazen. Fearless. She she had run ins with the law, but she teased the law, you know? And she had friends there. Um um uh, she she played she she was fearless. And and that seems to me [00:15:00] the lesson that we learned from her. I mean, obviously about sexual matters, but about anything in life. Um, that, you know, we've got one life, and the worst thing we can do is is to have fears and anxieties that we have to embrace life and be who we are. Um, And if if we are truthful and honest in that sense as she was, the chances are we're going to we're going to get away with it. It's by trying. It's by being [00:15:30] difficult and and fearful that we sometimes attract uh, prejudice. Um, danger. And we certainly, uh, uh distort our own personalities by by being fenced in by fears. Where do you think that fearlessness comes from? With Carmen II. I don't know I. I don't know. It's it's maybe because, uh, if you want to get in to trans. [00:16:00] It's Yeah, it's public. Well, I, I guess some. I guess there are many transvestites who dress up at home and and and have fun at home and then put the costumes away before they go out. But to go out in public as a transvestite that that's a very public statement. There's nothing private secret. And and so you have to be ready for insults for, uh, for violence, [00:16:30] maybe for contempt, uh, for for all kinds of attitudes and also, um, loneliness. Potentially, because your friends might be only other transvestites or transgender people. Um, there are so many people in society who want to say, Oh, I'm my my I have a good friend. I invite to dinner frequently and we share such a lot as being a a transgender [00:17:00] person. It's It's some, even in our own minds, you know, in in in the 21st century, people have fear, um, of of these people, these marginal people Mm II, I would say also, if we talk about racism in in our society, um, it's still there. And any anybody with a a different [00:17:30] colour of skin will, Will, will will say yes. Yes, it's there. Whether you're yellow or brown or black, it's there in society and and no, undoubtedly, Uh, uh, Carmen was was confronting that in society. Um, so she was just is out in every way and challenging society. So what impact did things like the balcony have on you when [00:18:00] you went there? Well, II I as I say, I I'm It was a long time ago. It'd probably be sixties, seventies, seventies. Maybe so. And I only went a few times, so I can't remember. Actually, I can't remember. But, um, but looking back, I'm I'm aware of, um uh, it's, uh, importance within the kind [00:18:30] of social cultural life of Wellington. And it was, you know, fifties sixties. Terrible, terribly conservative years, no sort of nightlife except the balcony. So, um what? What a what a thing to do to create this. This haven where, Where people could be entertained and titivated and yeah, you mentioned [00:19:00] earlier that you had interviewed Carmen. Can you tell me how that interview came about? Oh, that this was I had been commissioned by the Royal New Zealand Ballet along with a choreographer and a designer to, uh um, uh create a ballet which intertwined the life of our Carmen with the Carmen of B's opera. So that was a It was a very, uh, interesting, [00:19:30] uh, concept. Um, and I'm not sure, actually, I might be misleading you about this. Uh uh. It may have been a later date that I interviewed Carmen, but I was I was working on this project which has undergone various transformations, and I thought I needed to find out first hand, um, about [00:20:00] the music that she liked her musical tastes and perhaps ask some questions about her life that that weren't clear from the book and and just get to know her and and and have her confidence that, um that I wasn't, um, exploiting her without without her consent. Um, So, um, uh, I went to Sydney, and, uh, we spent an hour and a half together, and I looked at her record collection. I asked her about her musical tastes [00:20:30] and her exploits and so on. And, um, we became friends. We didn't meet so often, but she would occasionally send me a postcard or a little note or invite me if she was visiting new Zealand to to to join a social event or something. Um, so, yes, I can say she became my friend a a After that, we got to know each other. Um, can you describe what that meeting was like and and and in particular what? What? What? What her room was like? Yes, [00:21:00] Yes. No, it was fascinating. She she she lived in kings cross in a little room. Um, but it was only a bed sit, really. But I took some photos that was jammed full of brick and brick, the kitt kind And, um uh, there was a sort of portrait of her, and there was a recording of calm in the opera. And I looked through other records that the LP S that she had collected and liked talked about music that she used when [00:21:30] she performed. Um, and that's that kind of thing. So and And she of course, she must have taken time A you know, an hour or two to prepare herself whenever she had a guest who walked out into the world because, um, you know, the the make up the the dress, Um, and the earrings, uh, the the poise. [00:22:00] Um, so She was certainly, um, well presented to To to accept me and in her in her. And I think she she when she went outside, she would never be seen anything except turned out perfectly. Yes. Can you describe her personality? Yes. Yes. Um, um uh, she was totally honest and [00:22:30] and outrageous. If you if you wanted to her to be outrageous, she would be outrageous. Um, she wasn't, um if we compare with Georgina Baer, for instance, Georginia is is very articulate, very highly intelligent, and this is not common. She she she she wasn't well educated, she But, I mean, she she could she could talk when necessary, but, um, no, she was very ordinary in that sense. Um [00:23:00] um I, I think it's it's not her. All her book is great, but but somebody shadow wrote it. So it's it's language is racy and and and rich, but that that wasn't her. Really. Um she expressed herself through her dress, the way she moved and and operated, is and and and what she accomplished in her life. Hm. And and also, [00:23:30] uh, because she was a she became a role model, of course, for for many that followed, um, as a as a drag queen. Um um, And out there a transverse side. What was she like to interview? Oh, utterly charming. Of course. She she, um yes. No, no, she was She was flattered. Um, but she was very generous. And, um, she may have given me [00:24:00] some cookies and some cup of tea. I think stronger. We we talked. We talked about, um Her sexual preference is the kind of man she she liked, and and and the difference between the different races of men, you know, it strikes me that she could relate to people on so many different levels and at so many different stratas of society. Yes, yes. Oh, absolutely. And it was [00:24:30] her. Her accomplishments, you know, um, the the nightclub and the the coffee. But I think she I might have this wrong, but I think she had a a sort of little junk shop at some stage as well. Well, let's say, um, antique shop. Um uh, so she had a a AAA natural business sense, and she raised money when when she had to. And that might have been, you know, visiting the bank. Or it might be going back onto the streets. You know, if [00:25:00] if she needed money, well, she had to find ways to get it. So, um uh uh, yes, she she made her way in this world in whatever way she could, and she She was very smart. So I think people, um, respected that, and certainly her courage to be herself and to and to run a business, a business. And, you know, there are times in in the coffee lounge when she [00:25:30] had drunk men, young men, you know, that she had to deal with, you know, and she would deal with them. She had shady types. Um, the law was sort of voice hovering it it it could be there to help, but it could also be there to hinder or exploit or be a problem. So, you know, she managed all these things, you know, by herself. That's that's really smart. So she she had these natural abilities, and it wasn't, you know. [00:26:00] Um, yeah, a real original. How did you find, uh, the difference between say, come and the, um, icon slash Um, somebody that's been a bit mythologized to come. And the real person? Yes. Well, in some ways. When we asked her, I asked her why she went to Sydney. And, of course, the rumour was that she had, uh, too [00:26:30] much goss on too many important people in Wellington that people would like her to leave. Or maybe it was a problem with taxation, or I don't know what. Anyway, these were all nice rumours that enhanced her reputation. Um, but in Sydney, um, uh, life was reasonably comfortable, I suppose. But, I mean, she in her later years in her in her younger years, I think [00:27:00] she was a very beautiful, uh, drag queen. And her pictures as a as a young man are really striking strikingly beautiful. But, you know, age takes its toll. And, uh, in a way, she did. She didn't seem to fight this or be ashamed of it. She always had her her enormous bosoms to boast. And so she be in in some sense, [00:27:30] became a caricature but embraced that and flaunted that and and and never stopped saying this is who I am, like it or lump it. So I she she had dignity in that. In that sense, um, what one would have wished perhaps that she had found a, um, AAA man who could have retired her in in in in some greater degree of luxury and that she would might have appreciated. [00:28:00] But no, she lived in this small, um, flat. She survived, but I think she still walked the streets. And maybe she Maybe it was her vanity. I think she still looked to do tricks. She offered the best blow job available. Um, so maybe maybe she still enjoyed that lifestyle, but, um uh, she was certainly not a rich person. Um, [00:28:30] but but she maintained her dignity. Always. Um Mm. Can you recall what year that interview took place? Well, I should tell you a bit of the the history of the project, because maybe that tells us the date that I interviewed uh, her, um, the project began. The concept began in in, uh, 1991 Uh, with this, uh, concept [00:29:00] for a ballet combining B J's Carmen and the Life of Carmen. But within a couple of years, the ballet company was near bankruptcy, and, you know, um, a risky project like this had to be canned. Um, Then we had a new director of the ballet company in 1998 and I went to him and said, Well, look, I had this commission all these years ago. How about it? But, um, [00:29:30] he said, No, that's not on my agenda. So it was canned again. Um, then, um, I. I revise my view of it as as a concert piece with orchestra and a dancer and and maybe, um, some singers. So it's it's a sort of music theatre, but But in a concert, um, circumstance. And, [00:30:00] um, it was offered to the, um, International Festival in Wellington in 1998 and it was turned down. I think they considered it, and it was turned out. And then in 1999 I, I went to the symphony orchestra as a project for the millennium that they seemed to be that we could celebrate our colourful, multicultural, let's say, um, [00:30:30] culture in, In, in in the millennium, it could be a good and and they like the idea. So, um, they they thought it was a good project for the millennium. So it was going to be a millennium project, and, uh, they accepted the concept. Um, and it was going to be formed in 2000 or 2001 and, um uh, again, it fell over and they said, Well, a dancer, that's [00:31:00] really complicated. And it looks to be more expensive here. You've got all these singers, and I was wanting to have a a Spanish singer and a and a French singer, Uh, and a Maori singer. So it looked too expensive for them. And it it, um it fell over. But I said, Look, you agreed to this I. I also wanted to have a guitar soloist. Um, as as an instagram, I mean, Spanish, [00:31:30] Carmen, Spanish guitar and I and I thought, Well, if we look at the dancers that that Carmen danced as a cabaret artist um, these these are perfect for recreating these dances would like be nice to have a dancer, But if not that, um, make it a a sort of guitar concerto. And the the guitar itself transforms itself, um, into a Spanish guitar and then into a Hawaiian guitar and then into [00:32:00] a an African instrument, uh, representing the dancers, that the various dances that Carmen talked about that she had performed. So they accepted this idea as a concert piece and and the Carmen dances were performed in concert. Um oh, in 2002. So that part of it, um, existed. And I think in preparation for that, maybe in the year 2000. Maybe that's when I, [00:32:30] um, uh interviewed Carmen in preparation for that work. So prior to the 2002 car dances, why do you think those other occasions were either turned down or just not accepted for the for the ballet company? I mean, it was a crisis when the when the proposed performance was withdrawn. So, you know, that's, you know, it's if if if the whole company is going to disappear, that one [00:33:00] feels sympathy for them And if I'm responsible And of course it it was a it was, um, a a risky project for a, um, a ballet company after all. Um, it's not first of all a a modern dance company. It's a ballet company. So it was kind of a risky concept, and and then international festival. Well, again, um, um uh, I don't know, [00:33:30] uh, again that they're always looking at budgets, and my concept was to have a specific counter tennder from France, a specific, very famous flamenco singer from Spain. Um, so you know this These are quite expensive. And, um, it's all un unknown quantities, especially festivals. They like to buy packages, even if it's a bit expensive. They don't have to invest anything in the [00:34:00] production. It's a package they buy. And this wasn't going to be such a thing, so it it was always risky. Might still be risky, but well, if we come up to the prison, you know, God bless the a. PO Auckland Philharmonia for saying yes, perhaps not knowing what they're getting into, but for saying yes. So that's that's the dream. Comes a dream come true when [00:34:30] you've got a project spanning so many years and kind of constantly in flux and constantly changing for you. Is that a frustration, or is it something that's actually quite exciting? Because I mean, the the ideas keep changing and morphing and both both, um, frustrating when when you got what seems to be a great idea and somebody says, Well, maybe, and then they say no. So you have to put it aside, Um, but at the same time, it's like [00:35:00] a fruit cake with brandy or something that actually may be. The taste improves with age and and the concept for me transforming itself became stronger and stronger. And, you know, the first, the second concept of using a Flamingo singer, and and I've explored this in in greater depth, and actually, it could never have worked. I think, um, I would have had to compromise big time. Um, because [00:35:30] flamenco was really such a culture unto itself. Um, I was inspired by the Sara film Carmen and, uh, the fact that that was a flamenco I version of the B A. But then I went to Spain and I said, Well, who is this fantastic singer that so inspired me? And they said, Oh, she's a pop singer. She's not a flamenco singer, She's she's a a pop artist, [00:36:00] and I thought, Oh, well, I. I want a real flamenco singer. But actually O, obviously, Sara, the the the filmmaker found the same thing that he couldn't get, um, a flamenco singer to sing the, um, the fire. He had to go to find another kind of singer that could create a sort of faux flamenco vocal vocal sound. So I, I think, um, fates were suggesting [00:36:30] that, um, be patient. Be patient. It will be better. In the end, How was the 2002 version of common and dancers received? Um a, um a lukewarm I, I think, because it's all, um, it it's exploring kitsch and and also a transcription from various cultures. So it's it's all a bit kitschy. And, um, I, um John Button, [00:37:00] who is usually very supportive, uh, was a bit lukewarm, uh, in his review. And then there was another review by Rob McCoy. Unpublished was which was very scathing, And, uh and so I. I sort of thought, Oh, well, maybe this is a This is a This is a burst balloon, this piece. So I hadn't paid much attention, but I thought, Well, it's there, and I'll revisit [00:37:30] it. I'll I'll, maybe the orchestrations. Something has to be done with the orchestration. Or maybe it needs some cutting or maybe tweaking. So I've I've laid it aside, And it was only two days ago that I had a real good listen to it again, Um, with the dancer, the prospective dancer who's going to dance. The dancers and I listened and with the the the person who's going to direct, and I listened to it again, and I thought, Actually, it's not bad at all. II. I might [00:38:00] rescore a bit to to to help the guitars because the Guitar Guitar Concerto is always a problem because the guitar is such a soft instrument and and load register. So, um, it's it's quite a challenge musically, you know, to to feature this soft instrument. So I I might I might yet reconsider some of the scoring. But actually, um, in terms of the musical material, I think it's rather rather clever. And I think when I I as I say, [00:38:30] it's all it's all really based on on the concept of kitsch. And, uh, once we have a dancer there, then I think it will make sense. And that's what I'm I. I. I'm having listened to it with the director and the dancer. I think it's going to work in a way it didn't work in in in just in pure concert. So I'm I'm this this workshop and meeting I had two days ago. It it really inspired [00:39:00] me, and I think this is going to be a sensational show in 2002 sitting in the audience when you were listening to the work, Were you hearing the work as it was, or were you imagining what it could be? Well, these were simply the dancers, and and I should explain there are five dances. Um, um based on roles that Carmen danced in her cabaret [00:39:30] or in in Round About in Sydney. She danced, um, and three of the dancers, she definitely danced. And that was the role of Carmen herself. Um, the role of Hawaiian hula, Uh, and the role of, um, African snake dance. She she owns snakes in Sydney and danced with these snakes. Um, now the two other roles. I think she probably never danced, but she mentioned these role [00:40:00] models, and one is Salome Salomi. And, uh, we will know that this is the person who is responsible for the death of of, um, John the Baptist, because she danced this irresistible and irresistibly seductive dance for Herod. Um, and he offered her any prize, uh, for for the dance. And she said, I want the head of John the Baptist. So if we if we say AAA fan, [00:40:30] this is perhaps the most dangerous and powerful woman who can demand the death of a man just from her dance. Um, so obviously Carmen knew that this was a very powerful woman, and the other one was, uh and, uh, this is a much more mysterious figure. Historically, we know her to be a, um uh, a woman who was executed as a spy. Um, but she was [00:41:00] a was a quarter moved in in high high social circles in France and in Holland. She and she was Belgian born, lived in Indonesia for for some years. And from that, um uh, so Indonesian dance and, uh, sort of, um, created, uh, her her, um uh, seductive dance, um, inspired by Indonesian dance and and became [00:41:30] a, um a a figure of circumstance. And And one would say, um, a controversy in in the salons of of Paris and attracted many, uh, patrons. Um, uh, so in a way, uh uh, not so dissimilar from our Carmen, Um, but finally, uh, was executed as a spy, But historically, now they think that she probably gave no secrets to [00:42:00] anybody, whether whether to the the Germans or to the French or anybody. There were no secrets there that worth knowing. But she was the victim of of, um of the politics of the time. Also, Ely, a very courageous woman and living from her wits, obviously, like our Carmen and, um, uh, brave to the end. Refused to have a blindfold, um, for her execution. So [00:42:30] a courageous person, not transvestite, one would say, but a courageous role model for people who have to make their own way. She she left her husband. It was an unsatisfactory marriage. And she had been living in in style and and, you know, divorced women in those days. What did they do? They had to make their way. And she did, by being a becoming an exotic dancer. [00:43:00] So this is the the final dance that that's in, um, the, uh, the dances of Carmen. Um, I would say so. I, I thought, Well, maybe I can make this work by degrees. So that's why I I was happy to make those dances for that occasion. And I have to say also, I had a commission from the New Zealand String Quartet and I thought, Well, what will I write about? Well, I'll make it related to the Carmen Project. [00:43:30] So I researched, Say, which is AAA religious song sung during Holy Week in in Andalusia. And, uh, it's it's very powerful. It's, uh, to religious texts, Um uh, sung by a solo singer and, uh, and they process. I've never been there. I'd like to go, but I've heard about it, heard many stories [00:44:00] of people who have seen it. Uh, there's a band that moves through the streets and they play this kind of military music, and then they stop and then someone sings a and it's it's it's, uh, it's religious, but they the texts are yes, um, religious. And the melodies are It's a kind of AAA source, one of the sources they say for flamenco. It's very Middle Eastern [00:44:30] and a very raw sound. So I thought, Well, rather than flamenco, maybe I'll look to say for um um, inspiration. So I transcribed some say IIII. I had difficult finding recordings, but I visited a friend in in New York once and and found a whole LP of say So I copied that took, took it home and found some, um, material that I transcribed and I wrote this string quartet called [00:45:00] and um uh, Two of the movements are transcriptions of, say, one movement is a It is a, um, a transcription from a recording of Spanish song by Victoria de los Angeles. And she sourced it from a, I think, 1/13 century, uh, religious, um, cycle, um, and its solo voice. [00:45:30] And it's just beautiful. She sings it beautifully. So it's It's, uh, I. I've since found another version, but but she sings it beautiful. I transcribe that, and I also went to to the Spanish song Book of Hugo Wolf. And this is interesting because the poems are translated from Spanish folk poetry, and many of them are religious. And so it's this extraordinary sort of transmutation from folk [00:46:00] poetry to art poetry. Um and then I'm sure both had in mind Spanish music as many, um, sort of European middle European composers, especially French composers, Russian, even German composers writing Spanish music inspired by this culture which lay in the South, you know, Russian, [00:46:30] Russian composers writing Spanish music, you know, thinking of the warmth of that of of that land and the passion of that culture, something they wanted to capture, something they're inspired by, and it said that the greatest Spanish music was written by Frenchmen. Um, so he was. He was a German, a depressed German writing, a whole cycle of wonderful songs using Spanish folk [00:47:00] poetry translated into German. So I took one of one of the songs, and it's it's this religious song, um, about Jesus and turning it back into a cider to taking it back into a a folk style that that might have been where the poem came from in the first place. So I I took the melody and change [00:47:30] it back. So it's like taking something back to its culture. And, um so so I When I've been making these new versions of of texts, I I've already sort of done an exercise in in the for the musical material already in this string quartet I wrote. So again it was kind of a an exercise for the final work. So it's I've been working at it all these years in in various ways, and and I have to say also the concept for the, [00:48:00] um, the dancers is kind of trying to take things from, uh uh, um and and civilised a Western view of these cultures. like African lounge music. You know that of, um, um, Arabic music. Well, I got Strauss, so I stole [00:48:30] the dance, but that that was his view of belly dancing. And then I took it back to actual belly dancing. So I transcribed, um, sort of things from the culture and kind of married them with an art view of that culture. So it's, um uh, yes, it's to do with transformation. Um, as Carmen transformed herself into Carmen and then through her in her dances to other dangerous, powerful [00:49:00] women. Um, and the guitar transforms itself, um, to to other plucked instruments from other cultures. So, yes, the the whole thing becomes, uh, uh, transformative. I hope so. What? People might hear kit, but hopefully they they understand that there's a serious intention there. Did Carmen ever hear the car [00:49:30] dances from 2002 or the the the latest String quartet? Yes, indeed. She she was the guest of honour. Bless the NZS OS heart. Well, it was kind of marketing thing, as well as just an airfare from Sydney, But she was the guest of honour. She arrived at Wellington Airport, met by a big limousine stepped in and put up at a hotel taken out to dinner by the CEO and the the chairman of the board and guest of honour at the performance. [00:50:00] Um, and the performance ended. Um uh, the last dance not danced, of course. But the last dance dance unravels if people sort of lose their places and the whole orchestral fabric disintegrates and it's the first violin it who? It appears that his cell phone is going off. So everything stops and he pulls up the cell phone and gives it to the [00:50:30] conductor. And the conductor says, Hello? Hello? Oh, is that you? Carmen? Carmen is up in the balcony and and the conductor said, Did you like it? And he calls out, Yes, that's great. So, um, was integrated into the performance and it was an It was a beautiful sort of theatrical conclusion. And it would be it would have been great if we'd been able to do [00:51:00] that again at this upcoming performance. But sadly, the our hero heroine, um, passed away about six months ago or something. So, um, we have to think of another way to deal with the conclusion. Um, the the string quartet I. I think it would be too far removed from, uh uh, her and And II. I have talked some more about what the songs in this in this, uh, show are about, because [00:51:30] they they're taking the the metaphor of of transformation on into a new level. Really? What impact did Carmen's death have on on yourself and also this new work? Um well, um well, we all die. Um, and she was older than she ever admitted. Um, uh, so [00:52:00] I mean, it's it's yet another person reaching their conclusion that that's that's all just a sadness, because, um, it would have been wonderful to to to welcome her to Auckland for the show and to say, Well, Carmen, this is what I had in mind all along. And as you see, the dancers dance the the car dancers are intended to be a dance, and she would have liked very much the dance that we have. And it's a Maori boy who who honours her, totally so it it and and we we want to make [00:52:30] sure there's there's plenty of drag queens among the audience, you know, to make a celebration of of, of who she is and her life. Um, but we will do that anyway, in in her absence and use the occasion to to honour her in In her absence after her death I I noticed that there seemed to be a wee bit of tension between various either you know, friends or relatives or the wider LGBT community [00:53:00] in terms of ownership of Carmen that she has a legacy that that people want to hold on to or want to frame in different ways. Did that impact on on what you were doing? Um, no, no, I'm I'm not really part of that. Um, but I did have a call or some communication from Australia. And, of course, there's a big community there that that honour her. And she she she lived, lived in Sydney two occasions, I think and died. There was was was a, uh uh a celebrity in the cross. [00:53:30] And in Sydney, I don't know about wider Australia, but certainly she was a very, um she was a figure of import in in a big city, which Sydney certainly is. She she had, um, very touching stories. Also, about, um, having doing guest appearances, charity events where she would, um, she would perform again on stage, uh, for, [00:54:00] uh, to raise money to bury, uh um, some Kiwi boys who died. Uh, presumably, um, Dr Greens died of AIDS in Sydney. So she she was involved in all of that circle as well and and really continuing her her work in, in, in New Zealand when she she employed all these people and and, you know, gave them advice and and, um, you know, helped keep their [00:54:30] lives in order. So, um, uh, you know, there are many, many people who would recognise that and honour her for those things. But between Australia and New Zealand, I could see this tension because this person in Australia was saying, Well, we are building up an archive, and we'd like to perhaps make a film, and and I and I sort of said, Oh, well, look, now, look here. She was a kiwi, you know, but But I think that's sensational that that both countries want to own her. But I'm not involved [00:55:00] in all that politics. So to the work now. And it will be performed in 2013, I think on the eighth of March can you describe for me? Uh, where the name comes from? Songs and Dances of desire And, uh, What the work is now? Yes, there, there. There's a lot of, uh, uh singing in it. There are three singers, and they they play different roles. In a sense, [00:55:30] the dancers are are sort of campy, uh, and sexy entertainment. And I hope people are, um, entertained may be a little shocked. Surprised titivated Uh uh, by this and from the musical point of view, the the equivalent of this are four arias from B that I've re orchestrated. So I've tried to make them my own, in a sense, um, and the singer is a counter tenor. So it's a It's a man [00:56:00] with a woman's voice. So it's a kind of E equivalent of of the of transvestism. Um, and, uh, uh, have this marvellous Chinese counter tennder sort of. In the ideal world, it would be a French counter tenor singing in French, but he he's a Chinese counter sing tenor singing. And this represents Carmen, the figure that the Carmen the dancer, perhaps wanted to become because Carmen had [00:56:30] had had seen the opera and and it and thought, Yes, yes, that's me. Um, but then there's a whole other level here, and this is just my imagination of thinking. What? What? Why does a man want to become a woman? Of course, every Trans place I would have their own transgender person would have their their own answer their own reasons. But I My interpretation was that, um [00:57:00] a man recognises that women have certain powers Uh, that, uh, men don't have. And by becoming a woman or transforming oneself in a woman, one might have access to those powers. Well, the obvious thing is, um, um giving birth. Well, no, man, unfortunately, can never become a woman to that degree. Um uh, but the the powers [00:57:30] of seduction that the the more, um, subtle powers, uh, that women have and and it it it exists in the home. I think you know that. That men will say, Well, you know, in in the home my wife, she's the one. You know, that that runs things I can't. You know, I don't. So but But also in in sexual relationships. Women. Uh, [00:58:00] yes. Seduce, maybe. And oh, So I What I did was I. I went to an anthology of women writers and, um, chose poetry expressing the the female state this what What women think about themselves in the world and the poems themselves that I chose [00:58:30] are dark, and most of them say, um oh, the the the most extraordinary poem at the end, you know, luck. Well, we all like to have luck. I mean, good fortune. We all like to be lucky, but the real lessons of life is in pain. Give me pain. Not like pain. So it's It's a real knockout. Um, so, you know, maybe maybe this is what childbirth is. Um, but it's the the the poet the [00:59:00] poets represented, uh, by by my choice, tend to be women who from Russian, Swedish, uh, South American poets who have suffered, um, and one would say that the Carmen suffered. I mean, maybe externally. One looks at her life and says, Well, she she made she did well and she seemed to have fun on the way, But to actually come to [00:59:30] terms with yourself. Your sexuality, how to make your way in the world, I think is is a struggle is undeniably struggle. And, uh, how much suffering or lone? Certainly loneliness. You know, if if you don't have, like people, um, or good friends or support if you're on your own, That's, um, that that must, uh, involve suffering of some kind. [01:00:00] So, um, these, uh, songs I'm setting and the the languages I've chosen are Maori and Spanish. Uh, and, um, that that that seemed obvious. This is a Maori boy wanted to become a Spanish gypsy. Um so the poems that were in Russian that have gone into Mali or they were in Swedish and they've [01:00:30] gone into Spanish so through English. So maybe, you know, purists will say that it's not real poem, but the sentiment is there. And, uh and I wanted the sounds of those languages and the sounds of those cultures. Maori. So the Maori singer, she's she's not a professional singer. She sings like from the Culture and the Spanish singer. I was looking for a Spanish [01:01:00] singer whose first language was Spanish, but I've compromised, and I've found somebody whose second language is Spanish. So they're singing with conviction. They're singing in these languages, knowing what they're singing about, and they're singing about, uh, these special powers of women and many of these powers are dark. Um uh, as experiencing pain or exerting power [01:01:30] in secret ways, like casting a spell. So I think we sort of echoing witchcraft. And, you know, we we know the history of that and how women were victimised in the past for what was perceived as as as magic. But it was probably women having knowledge and experience, um, which, which made me afraid. [01:02:00] So that's that's the piece. So II I for me it it will work because everything is there. We have, uh, kitsch entertainment, Sexy, naughty. And we have darkness and and, uh, power and things that will frighten people. So it should be a total, um, [01:02:30] cathartic experience and the Greek tradition of Greek drama. I hope I'm wondering, uh, when you're looking at someone who assumes new personas if and and creating a work around that does that also mean that you question your own persona and your own identity, and and and you know how how you fit into the world? Um [01:03:00] um uh, well, uh, yes, yes and no. I mean, I'm I'm gay, but I never had any inclinations to to explore transvestism, but to come back to this thing about fearlessness. We all have naughty secrets, which we don't talk about. Um, and we also have fears about, uh, how we behave about not [01:03:30] speaking the truth for whatever reason. And that reason very often is fear of the censure of others. Um, and, uh, So this is something that carmen teaches us that we should overcome? I would say so, Um, um, yeah, that That's why I was so inspired by reading the book to say this is somebody who, you know, had [01:04:00] no no secrets, um, about who they were or what they thought what they wanted to do, how they wanted to behave. Yeah. I mean, you know, tripping over. You know, we we we we if you trip over in the street, you kind of you think you you get up embarrassed and and your dignity is dented for a moment and and even [01:04:30] something as simple as that II I Now I get up and think Oh, what a fool. You know, of course I'm a fool. Whatever. People thought, I'm a fool. You know, I, I, uh Yeah, it's just it's just to face up to who you are and and the secrets that you have that there's nothing worth keeping a secret. Really? Do you think that's become clearer since [01:05:00] your your recent health issues? 000, Well, um oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I. I remember, Uh, uh, Michael and he he had health issues like, 25 years ago, and he survived it all. But, uh, I asked him about this and he said, Well, um, the the thing, I sort of woke up to that, um I [01:05:30] have to prioritise. I have to look for things that are, uh, are important to me and do them and not be burdened by the expectations of other people that if I'm expected to do this or that or this or that, and if it's not important to me, then maybe these other things can be discarded. Um, you know that I I've only got one life, so I better get on with the things that I see are important to me. So, um uh, probably I feel [01:06:00] a bit that way. And But, you know, at my age, I'm lucky to be here, you know, as seeing in a new year. That's true. Uh, but on the other hand Oh, I'm reading, um, um, letters of various composers. And we we know that, uh, Bui died before his time from cancer. And, uh, I didn't know that. Um, uh, Pacini died of throat cancer. So, uh, and and then we take examples of people [01:06:30] like Schubert and Mozart and, you know, hardly hitting 30. So you know, if if if people are, you know, in into their late sixties, going on seventies, everything's a bonus, we'd rather rather not leave just now. But, um uh, you know, Well, 11 would say that, um uh, confronting mortality is something we should do. Oh, well, that's [01:07:00] fearlessness. You know, the inevitability of death, which is something we don't talk about or don't want to talk about and which we like to postpone. And then we're shocked when a young person dies and and think, you know, that's so unjust. And of course, it's unjust. But of course, it's everybody's destiny. Um, so we have to face that, um so I. I considered myself a very lucky person to be here, and I celebrate that. And what did [01:07:30] I hear? Everything past 65 is a bonus, but my father lived to 100 and three. So I've I've got a I've got a and and his brother 100 and one and their mother 99. So we've got a little bit of time left. I have to say it's It's not the fear of death. It's, um it's the worry about the mess. You leave for other people to clean up, you know? And Douglas bu, um, [01:08:00] in his later years, Well, the first thing he did when he retired was to clean out his cupboards, and he never threw anything away. So all the letters, you know, were sent off to the Turnbull and and all the scores. He looked at the scores and make sure there was they were in right state and some sort of fragments. He thought, Well, I could revisit that and clean it up a bit. And so he tied it up as all his music. He tied it up his his his his state, in a sense, and set up the Turnbull Trust, [01:08:30] which has served, uh as well and will continue to serve us well, well into the future. So he tied it that up and his house. He started selling off all his marvellous collection of books and music and just emptying the house. So, you know, there was nothing much to clean up in with Douglas at the end. Uh, of course, it was the problem of the house itself. He would have. He was considering setting it up as a as a residence for composers, [01:09:00] but, um, he couldn't find anybody that he trusted to to to look after it. So he thought, Well, just sell it off and the money goes to the trust. So that created a problem for us who wanted it to be a residence. Um, but then I think of myself when I look around where we're sitting now and all that stuff that's here and thinking, Well, the people that left behind poor things. [01:09:30] So I Yes, yes, I. I think everybody should consider the mist they leave behind and make sure it's not too much of a burden. You mentioned earlier that you had your first workshop? Uh, just a couple of days ago. Tell me about that. Um, it's been an issue. Thinking of the ideal dancer for for, um [01:10:00] uh, the the show and the as I say the the budget for this is really stretched, and I'm so grateful that the a PO, you know, making it happen at all. But I approached a few dancers I approached, and then these were friends and people whose work I respected, and they respected me and my work. So they are people that I knew, Um, and it was marrying the right dancer [01:10:30] with the right choreographer if it needed to have a choreographer and it it it had a few ups and downs and bumps and sideways and backwards. So a few dramas along the way, we we're far enough out for for it not to be crisis. But I had in mind a certain dancer from way back. And but, you know, that's 20 years ago More 25 years ago, almost 23 years ago. So, uh, you know, that person's life has changed, [01:11:00] and I wasn't sure that they were the right person or they would fit. Um, So we we explored various options and likewise with a a director somebody that that, um, you know, was imaginative and didn't mind a small budget. And and then the the two names that I came up with, you know, just in the last week and put them together and it's magic. It's it's the idea of his his imagination that it they're both gay. Um, uh, they [01:11:30] like each other, they they respect each other and we did a little workshop, and they they work fabulously together. So it's the ideal team, Um, which we've come up with, Um, and the dancer is both Maori and gay. New Carmen loved Carmen Perfect. He he he would pay to do the role. He's so committed and and he doesn't have other commitments. So the [01:12:00] commitment is sensational. When you get into this phase where you're starting to workshop material, do you see it more as a collaboration, or are you quite set in in what you want to see? Oh, well, this this this was exactly what we discussed two days ago. Um, and and the structure of the work because it's music is kind of fixed. You can't mess around with it. You know, the durations and the material is sort of fixed. Uh, I can juggle movements and [01:12:30] in the original dances, as they were performed as a guitar concerto two of the movements, uh, merge one into the other. And the question is, you know, is that a good concept for a dancer to suddenly change their role? You know, from one to the other, Can it work theatrically? And? And the the director said, Well, it could work. But then we listened to it, and we thought, No. Now let's make them separate dancers. Um uh, so we agreed [01:13:00] on that and that, uh, the director and the dancer quite like the idea that the dancer was kind of sort of there as Carmen throughout the show. And, um, you know, I'm I'm not a person to say no, categorically. But that wasn't my original concept. And I saw the danger of this exotic person drawing a attention away from the singers who are formidable artists in their own right and whose messages [01:13:30] are kind of AAA are beyond the person of the dancer in drag. They they they are actually, they are women, kind of, um uh uh singing with the power of what we might conventionally call call a man. They have that that power, which we might normally think of as masculine. Um, because they're so strong. So I I saw that as a as theatrically Uh uh [01:14:00] um, confusing for an audience. So we have the dancer and it's clear what their dancer is. And then we have singers and that's, uh that's an that's another story. That's something else, except for the counter teller who is, in fact AAA transformed man becoming a woman. And so I can see uh uh at certain points that there might be a connection made between the person of Carmen [01:14:30] as the drag queen and this counter tenor who has the voice of a woman. So, uh, lots of emails to come up and some workshops together. But in a way, uh, the the the dancer and the and the director understand each other, they understand the concept. They've got the music so they can get on with it. And I'll pop in occasionally and and give my approval And my acclaim, No doubt. Is it quite tricky, though, with having a dancer of singers and [01:15:00] orchestra that they're not all competing to be in the foreground? The How do you get that back? Everybody has their moment. So So it's this singer and and it's only um, as I say, the potentially a couple of spotss where the singer and the dancer Oh, with the the when the dancer is related to the counter tennder, uh, we've decided that it might be might be lip synching because this was a part of that whole culture. Of course. Uh, as a performer, [01:15:30] I mean, they might dance a bit, but actually, lip syncing is is is the the illusion that this voice is coming up. So II I think that's terrific. And we will try and work towards that. So at that time, they were actually linked as one person, one body, but a a voice from elsewhere thrown into that body. Um, but for the other two singers, they are soloists. They're stars, they're divas, they step forward, and all the attention is one or the other. And in the last song, they both sing momentary together. [01:16:00] So the the the Maori and the Spanish Gypsy become one momentarily. So I think it's it's it's taken all the year these years to perfect the concept. Absolutely. Can you talk to me about the idea that you're not necessarily picking, say, a trained singer, but you're you're going for something that's a lot more kind of earthy. Yes. Oh, well, I'm interested [01:16:30] in in other voices, in a sense, and I've worked with with, um, Cambodian singer, uh, an Indonesian singer. Um, just because they have a different kind of kind of vocal production. So I didn't want, um, I didn't want an operatic sound. And even if I use the trained singer as one of the singers, well, the the the singer in Spanish, she's a She's an opera singer, but I'm going to get her to sing as raw with [01:17:00] as raw a sound as possible. And I'm going to give her samples of the kind of sounds I'm looking for. And I She's a wonderful singer and I I I'm I'm convinced that she can capture that quality. But the Maori singer um, I I is untrained, and, um, she's given me the material, the musical material, I said. Here's the words. Give it to me, Sing it to me. So she's sung from her culture [01:17:30] and and I transcribed and then built something around it. So in in some sense, it's totally authentic. I I'm aware that Maori culture you have to be very careful with. But how do you you use it in a sense. So I deliberately chose text because texts, You know, I have high ownership, you know, And and to use a text, you have to go through a whole world of permission and and being, um, granted the right to use certain text. So [01:18:00] these texts are not marry there. Russian, the Spanish, the Swedish, through English, into Maori. So, uh, in fact, the it's the singer's mother who who translated for me. So it's kind of in the family in that sense, So they do feel a little bit of ownership, but it's not associated with iwi. It's associated with family. Um, just the the mother and daughter, Um but but [01:18:30] that she's made these words her own and and she sung with her voice. So, um, that's it's really powerful stuff. Oh, knock out. I'll tell you a story. Uh, I, uh we we, we we we Oh, yes, II. I said these poems some time ago A as a called, uh and, uh uh, so that that work was done also, like the other parts of the [01:19:00] of the of the work as pre exercises and and they were we we did a We did a concert in in California. So we went there and she sang and the audience was pretty astonished. So we're confident that it's going to work well, But she she has a day job here in Wellington. A very responsible job. And she wasn't certain that she'd be up to sing, you know, to go to Auckland and give the time and rehearsals. [01:19:30] So I gave her a recording. I had given a recording, but she must have lost it. I gave her a recording. I said, Well, listen to yourself. You know you can you can do it. If you've done it in California, you can do it in Auckland. And she listened. Um, toured at home with her son, who's a teenager, and he said, Mum, that's so scary. And which is exactly what it is. And so [01:20:00] she she got the Commons to think, Oh, yeah, I can do this. I can do this. So, um so she's on board. You've also, uh, picked a kind of a not not a conventional director or not a institutionalised director. Can you tell me about that? Yes. Um, no, Warwick. Broadhead was the, uh, in the original team in 1990 as [01:20:30] a designer. And, um uh, the ballet company accepted him. Um, Warwick as people, Anybody that knows knows his name is what one would call an independent artist. Has worked in theatre a kind of, um um, certainly not an institutionalised conventional theatre. He's made theatre with people who are not actors. He he makes costumes [01:21:00] out of any junk he can find. He he he creates, um, the texts out of out of people's experience, his own experience and the and the participants experience. He chooses venues like a beachfront. Sand dunes it. So it's it's, um it's theatre from the from the depths of imagination without any trappings of of convention and and institution. Um, and he himself is a is an actor, [01:21:30] a performer, uh, and has done many er one person shows that he creates himself and sometimes with Colla collaboration with with musicians. So he he's for something original, something visionary, something, uh you know, that grows just out of imagination. He's the person, and, uh, he knows the dancer Jason. Um, over many years that they [01:22:00] get on together and, uh from the workshop. Little workshop we did a few days ago. The the chemistry is perfect between the two. so, uh, and also, uh, um, Warwick's sense of space because he's worked in in so many spaces. Um, uh, we spent an hour in the in the, uh, Auckland town hall. Just walking around looking at space. Uh, [01:22:30] um, visions from the what do you call it? Um, vision lines, sight lines from various places. Um, And then he looked up and he saw the hole in the ceiling, which is very high. Oh, Jason has to come down from up there. He says So, um, maybe that will happen. Um, thinking of, of all all kind. His imagination runs riot. So some of these things will work. Some might have to be discarded along the way, but, you know, he's very, [01:23:00] very creative. Very uh, very open and and also very willing to collaborate in the in the best sense, he as he says, talking to me, it's your piece, and it's true. I mean, the music is is a big labour, and and once it's fixed, it's fairly fixed. So he'll have to, you know, that's I can't change much about that. Um, but, uh, and And likewise, the dancer from that, uh, workshop, [01:23:30] you know, is so committed. So, uh, it's a great team. The Auckland Town Hall, where it's going to be performed. How will that be laid out as you? Yes, we plan a catwalk out from the orchestra, so I think that it's possible the singers might move a bit, Um, maybe from place to place. But I, I quite like the idea that they are spotlit at certain places. Sort of isolated, uh, 123. [01:24:00] So that they are, um, solo. Um uh, but the dancer will move around, Um, hopefully around the stage without knocking over too many music stands. Um, but most especially out into the audience along the catwalk, descending down into the into the auditorium. Um, and it's being laid out with, uh, tables and chairs so that people can [01:24:30] sit around whether whether they're drinking wine or cups of tea. I don't know. That's up to other people to decide, but, uh, we we like the idea. There should be some hint of, um, Carmen's coffee lounge where, um, you know, there are coffee cups or tea cups around that people could, um, uh, drink from the audience, that is, and, uh, that the Carmen might occasionally read the tea leaves, you know, or no, actually, [01:25:00] the, um, the thing, of course, that that, um, how you positioned your cup Indicated what? What you wanted to happen next. Whether you wanted to go upstairs for a bit of fun and the nature of that fun. So there was a whole code of of these tea cups, um, and and how you placed them. So there might be a hint of that, which would be very nice. One thing that really kind of staggers [01:25:30] me a wee bit. Is that all of this energy, you know, years and years of development. And then all of this energy for this performance is going into one night. How do you feel about having all that energy directed into 13 hour performance? Well, not three hour. No, no, no, no, no, not that long. It's about 11 hour, 15 minutes or one hour, 20 minutes. Um oh, yes, of course, but but composers are used to that. One [01:26:00] has to say, um, hopefully there will be good recording. from Radio New Zealand concert, Um, and I. I would love for it to be videoed, um, and and maybe even a film about which would include the show and possibly more. Possibly just excerpts from the show. But also something about the preparation the the, um uh, rehearsals with the dancer and the singers. Uh, [01:26:30] kind of psychological preparation. Um, uh, so it is getting late in the day to organise this, but I hope I live in hope that it might might be documented in some way. Um, it it it's an expensive show. And, uh, I would have loved for it to have had two at least, but no, no, Um, the the the festival saw only the possibility, really, of one performance. [01:27:00] Um, that's reality. But, you know, many, many times a composer will work on a piece, albeit not as big as this, um, and get one performance. And it might be that there might be never another performance, but a a recording, at least, um, is at least that's some kind of document that really did happen. Yeah. Oh, well, that's life.

IRN: 633
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/marriage_equality_reflections_on_church_and_state.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004071
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089365
TITLE: Reflections on Church and State - Marriage Equality
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Kevin Hague; Louisa Wall; Margaret Mayman; Paul Franken
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Barack Obama; Bill of Rights Act (1990); Civil Union Act (2004); Human Rights Act (1993); Kevin Hague; Levin; Louisa Wall; Margaret Mayman; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Nathan Guy; Paul Franken; Quilter case (1996); Salvation Army; Springbok rugby tour (1981); St Andrew's on the Terrace; Tony Reed; Wairarapa; Wellington; civil unions; discrimination; equality; homosexual law reform; human rights; law; marriage; marriage equality; politics; religion; sin; social justice; spirituality; suicide; youth; Ōtaki
DATE: 7 November 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: St Andrew's on the Terrace, 30 The Terrace, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from a marriage equality discussion held at St Andrew's on the Terrace on 7 November 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to Saint Andrews on the terrace to this event that's sponsored by the Saint Andrews Trust for the Study of Religion and Society entitled Marriage Equality, Reflections on Church and State. And before I go any further, um, you know completely, um, reveal my politics and to say that if you haven't heard, Obama has been declared, um, reelected in the United States. So that's a huge relief for the rest of the world. I'm sure so. [00:00:30] But it is my great pleasure today, um, to welcome you here, but also to welcome, um, the two other speakers who are going to join me in this reflection. Louisa Wall Whose Bill, Uh, we are, um, considering as a country and Kevin Hague who is also very involved in supporting, um, the passage of this bill through parliament. We decided not to have a bloody debate. Um, um, about this, we decided that we'd have a forum where we can explore, um, some of the issues around church and society, and I wanted to share some of my [00:01:00] understandings about the history of marriage and, um, and some of the religious considerations. But before we get into that, um Just to tell you that, um, in the event of a fire, we just notice where your fire exits are in the event of an earthquake in our very nicely earthquake strengthened church. Um, the drill is, as always, drop cover and hold if you need to go to the loo, Um, you actually need to go outside and down the pathway, um, into the church. Um, the meeting tonight is being recorded. [00:01:30] Um, so if you don't want, if you want to ask a question later on and you don't want it to be recorded if you could just indicate that before um, you start speaking and we'll make sure that that's not included it's going to be available. Um, through pride in Z, on the Internet and through the study trust, um, on our our DVD or audio CD. So, um, we we're going to our agenda this afternoon is that I'm going to speak for, um, about, um my [00:02:00] understanding of the religious issues around this. And then Lesa is going to speak about the background of the bill and about the issues of and sort of confusions and, um conflicting stories around the church and state issues. And then Kevin is going to update us on the state of the campaign and anything else that either of you want to add to this. But it's really great to have you here. And I'm really grateful, Um, that you're joining us today because, um, I, I really want to acknowledge that these two people are working tirelessly on the campaign [00:02:30] and acknowledge those of you in the audience today who are also part of the community. Um, who are supporting it? I'm I'm really encouraged by the popular support for this bill and by the huge number of New Zealand citizens, especially young people who are committed to marriage equality here at Saint Andrews. Our parish council is fully supportive, but we are aware that much of the opposition to the bill is coming from religious people. And sadly, Christians and other people of faith represent the biggest obstacle to marriage equality in New Zealand and internationally. [00:03:00] And so what? The purpose for me today is to, um to have us a chance to understand some of that opposition, but also to resource you in the conversations that you might have with people that you encounter over the next few months, Um, so that you can think through what this means to be a a person of faith and to be, um, whether you are or not And, um, to realise that people to be a person of faith does not mean that you need to oppose gay marriage. In fact, it's quite the opposite. We think that marriage equality is a spiritual [00:03:30] and ethical imperative, because the overriding message of our faith is that we're called to practise justice and compassion and to respect the dignity of all people, especially those who have been marginalised and excluded, and that this matters a whole lot more than half a dozen dubious biblical texts, Um, that have really, um, controversial and conflicted meanings. So today I want to address several issues. First, why? I think it's, um, acceptable for people of faith to be involved in a public conversation [00:04:00] at all. And the second to look at the current opposition to the bill from people of faith, the third to look at biblical and historical understandings of marriage and finally, to develop an affirming perspective from a Christian point of view. I know that some people in the um LGBT community, Um, believe that religious groups have no place in the public conversation and that religion should be a private matter. But I believe that people of faith in New Zealand have as much right as any citizen or any other group to participate [00:04:30] in public conversations about issues that matter to us as New Zealanders. Faith, properly understood, is not individualistic but grounded in a desire for the common good. What I don't believe and what I do not believe is that any particular religious group has the right to expect to have its theological beliefs enshrined in legislation simply because they are our beliefs. If we want to participate in the public realm, we need to make our arguments in ways that are convincing to people who do [00:05:00] not necessarily share in our beliefs. And I think that's a sad thing that that seems to be that a lot of people of faith in New Zealand don't understand that that quoting religious verses is a completely inadequate way for us to engage in public conversation. Some of the religious opponents to marriage equality have learned, I think, from the past from homosexual law reform and civil unions that outright religious bigotry and homophobia are not attractive to the majority [00:05:30] of New Zealanders. So this time they are being more clever and masking their religious opposition and more neutral sounding rhetoric. Glenn Carpenter, who's the national director of the New Zealand Christian Network, has said that the bill involved a redefinition of a word marriage that had a specific and clear meaning, and that has achieved little other than creating confusion around the word and the importance to society of the institution it describes. He says that if politicians took the step of treating [00:06:00] marriage as something that could be redefined at whim rather than recognising its natural based dimension, there was no rational argument which could be used to oppose any other variation which a minority group might push in the future. He also says that it is potentially, um enormous has potentially enormous sociological and economic implications for New Zealand society move. Duffy Duffy, who's a Catholic anti marriage equality spokesperson, has also invoked the economic argument, saying that changing [00:06:30] the official government forms will be prohibitively expensive and that we've done that not so long ago for civil unions. Well, I imagine that it was pretty expensive for South Africa and the Southern US to change the whites only signs on the drinking fountains and public pools. But it didn't mean that it wasn't the right thing to do. And cost is hardly a satisfactory theological or ethical argument. And then you've all heard the slippery slope arguments that if marriage is defined once it can. There's nothing to [00:07:00] stop it being redefined again, to allow all sorts of other things which I won't repeat. But deep down, I think that this view comes from a belief that homosexuality is a sin in Contra, contrary to God's intention for human beings, and that there are Bible verses that will prove it. I find it fascinating that they and other religious conservatives are now saying that civil unions are satisfactory because they meet the social obligation of legal protection. But some of us have memories that extend as far back as 2004, [00:07:30] and we remember that Mr Carpenter and Mr McCroskey vehemently opposed the civil union bill and ex and invoked exactly the same slippery slope arguments. The reality is that religious voices opposed to rights for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people in general and marriage equality in particular have become more sophisticated. But if you scratch the surface, it is religious arguments that are there underneath. What I think our task is is not to, um, engage in hostility, [00:08:00] um, and demonising people especially. I mean, I I'm fine about criticising Bob McCroskey. Um, but I think some of the people who, um, he appeals to, um our task is actually to engage them in conversation, um, to to be able to understand where they're coming from and to help them understand where we're coming from. And I think that ridicule and especially some of the racism that came out around the opposition to the, um um rather unpleasant march in Auckland a couple of weeks ago, [00:08:30] um isn't going to help our case. We actually really need to, um, engage with communities. So I want to say a little bit about the history of marriage all over the Western world. The movement to transform marriage is underway, but it hasn't been gay and lesbian people who've been bringing these changes about it's been heterosexuals. Gay theologian Marvin Allison has said that straight people have been queering marriage marriage has been changing for thousands of years, and for us it's about love. [00:09:00] But it hasn't always been that way. For millennia, it was about property and procreation and based on gender inequality, just as there's never been one Christianity. So there's never been one marriage. No monolithic or fixed Christian tradition exists. There are conflicting christianities, which differ over sexuality and all sorts of other things. The biblical call to justice and compassion. To love your neighbour as yourself is the thing that provides the mandate for marriage equality. Justice [00:09:30] is right. Relationship seeks both personal and communal well-being, embodied in interpersonal relationships and institutional structures, including marriage. I think it is important, as we address the claims for same sex marriage, that we understand something of the complex history. Usually religious arguments for or for, um, against same sex marriage focus a great deal on the Bible. But in reality, the Bible says very little about marriage as we understand it today and [00:10:00] nothing at all about same sex marriage. The texts that are used to condemn homosexuality were written by people who had no understanding that human sexual orientation is a continuum any more than they understood that the earth is not flat. The condemnations of same sex acts in the Bible are based on the needs of a marginal nomadic tribe to reproduce, and then on a need for a more settled religious community to differentiate itself from the religions around it that practise temporal [00:10:30] prostitution and for whom sex between adult men and young boys was commonplace. The biblical text had nothing to say about people who experienced same sex attraction and love, who wish to commit themselves publicly to one another and to receive the benefits and protections available to citizens in biblical marriage. As you probably know, polygamy was common, and women, Children and slaves were regarded as property, not fully persons. The patriarch had sexual access to multiple [00:11:00] wives, servants and to the wives and daughters of men under his control. In the New Testament, writings produced after the death of Jesus marriage was discovered, discouraged in favour of celibacy because Christians believe that Jesus would return and that the world would end soon. Until the modern period, marriage was primarily about politics, for the elite and economic survival for the masses. While there have always been loving marriages, marriage had its origins [00:11:30] and much more mundane realities. Some of the opposition to marriage equality comes from people who are anxious about social change. But people have been worrying about marriage since ancient times. The Greeks complained about the morals of their wives, and the Romans bemoaned high divorce rates and looked back with nostalgia to more stable times. And the new forms of family relationships that people think are unprecedented changes in family life are mostly not new [00:12:00] at all. Human beings have been creatively constructing our families for a very long time. There have been times in the past when it was more common for Children to be born out of wedlock than it is now. Step families were very common in the past because of the high rates of death and remarriage. And same sex marriage, though relatively rare, has been sanctioned in some cultures. Similarly, arrangements that are now presented as traditional marriage and popular cultures have [00:12:30] a pretty recent history. The involvement of church and state in marriage is one of the more recent innovations. For centuries of Christian tradition, a couple were considered Mar married when they privately said the words of intent to one another. I take you to be my husband, and I take you to be my wife. Neither judge nor clergy were involved, but marriage was still considered a serious commitment. Marriage, determined by political or economic considerations, only began to change in the 18th century, [00:13:00] 5000 years after it first began to take shape amongst the ancient tribes and kingdoms of the Middle East. But it was not until the late 18th century that love became to be the dominant issue within marriage discourse. For the first time in thousands of years, marriage began to be seen as a private relationship between two people, rather than a part of AAA system of alliances that were political or economic. Gender roles began to be differentiated, and the husband, [00:13:30] who had traditionally been the supervisor of the agrarian family labour Force, became to be seen as the bread winner, whereas in the past, women and Children had also worked outside the home and the wife became to be associated with the moral and domestic aspects of marriage. So the so-called sort of gendered idea of marriage, which feminism fought against in the 20th century, is a really recent development, and while it took more than 100 and 50 years to establish [00:14:00] the love based male breadwinner model of marriage as the dominant one. It took less than 25 years to dismantle it. The sixties and the seventies generated radical critiques of marriage, and the civil rights discourses at the time encouraged people to begin to think of marriage as a basic right. This thinking led to the overturning of laws that had banned mixed race marriages in most of the US south until 1967. And when that law change occurred almost immediately, [00:14:30] gay and lesbian people began to argue that they, too, should have access to this fundamental right to marry. By the late seventies, the social challenges of the sixties and seventies have created huge social change in people's attitudes towards personal relationship. There was a massive decline in people valuing conformity in favour of a focus on self fulfilment, intimacy, fairness and emotional substance, acceptance of singleness, living together, childlessness, [00:15:00] divorce and out of wedlock childbearing increased drama dramatically and once again, the economy figured in changing attitudes as women were pushed into the workforce by the need for two income families as well as personal fulfilment. The brief golden age of marriage, which I think is what conservative people of faith refer to when they talk about things like Christian marriage is over as more and more couples cohabit rather than marry. In many places, [00:15:30] marriage has lost much of its cultural and legal privilege, and many countries now give legal recognition and protection to non married couples. And I wonder if one of the outcomes of marriage equality might be that marriage actually becomes more appealing because I do know opposite sex couples who have declined to get married, who have chosen a civil union or chosen to stay living together because they associate marriage with some of those past injustices and inequalities. [00:16:00] I've spent some time talking about marriage as a human cultural phenomenon because I think it's really important to challenge the claims made by social and religious conservatives that marriage is unchanging or that there is one biblically sanctioned form of family. But I could also make a rather conservative argument that some of what was lost in the process of making marriage about intimate love can be reclaimed by the participation of gay and lesbian people in marriage. Same [00:16:30] sex marriage is attractive to gay people because we recognise that marriage is not just private and individualistic. It matters to us as a community, as people in relation to one another and, as it is, always done it Inter. It intersects with politics, economics and religion. But my claim is that none of these politics, economics or religion should have the sole power to define or limit who may participate in it. New Zealand [00:17:00] is a country with rich religious diversity. No single religious voice can speak for all traditions on issues of sexuality and marriage. Nor should the government take sides on religious differences. Therefore, religious groups must have the right to discern who is eligible for marriage in their own tradition. In addition, all clergy should be free to solemnise marriages without state interference. It's significant that many religious traditions already perform marriages and unions for same sex people, [00:17:30] even though the law does not permit same sex civil marriage, and there is no religious consensus on this matter. Currently, the state recognises only some religious marriages. The first same sex marriage at Saint Andrews took place nearly 18 years ago, so we've been waiting a while for this. We also believe it is important that there should be no compulsion for people to marry and to support the intent of the 2005 Relationships Bill [00:18:00] and the Civil Union bill in 2004, which sought to treat all relationships equally. The benefits and protections offered to the state to individuals and families should be available to everyone according to their need, not according to their marital status. I think the important contribution that churches and other faith communities have to this debate is to talk about why relationships matter in society, to look at what makes a marriage a relationship good things like responsibility, [00:18:30] equality and love, things to avoid, like violence and coercion, a place to ensure that Children are valued and loved and nurtured. So finally, I want to say that as a Christian, I believe that the faith I affirm challenges me to speak and act for justice. For all who seek to express their love in the commitment to marriage, some people of faith will disagree and others may be decided, but I hope that [00:19:00] we can find common ground when we reach out to promote what is best for individuals, couples, families, Children and society for progressive people of faith. This is not going to end the the search for justice. Um, this the passing of this bill, there are other things that we need to do. Achieving marriage Equality is an important goal, part of a wider vision to continue to work for justice, for all people and for recognition and support of the range of relationships and family forms that exist in our [00:19:30] society. Supporting the freedom of same sex couples to marry is grounded in a commitment to learn how to live more gracefully with difference, including sexual difference in an increasingly multicultural and religiously pluralistic and secular society. Thank you. [00:20:00] Uh, Margaret, I'd like to acknowledge you, uh, for this opportunity to engage, uh, with your congregation in the wider community here in in Wellington. Um, I stand here as, um somebody who was baptised, um, as a, uh, and somebody who has, uh, many times in my life, uh, done the pilgrimage to [00:20:30] every year. So I stand here as somebody committed to, uh, my beliefs and my values, um, as a person of faith, and so I am really excited about the opportunity to have some really frank and full discussions, uh, about the relevance of marriage equality to us personally, but also to us, uh, who come from particular religious, uh, denominations that may or may not support the proposition, uh, that two people who love each other actually should be enabled, [00:21:00] uh, through, um, legislation for the state to give them a licence to marry. And I'd like to focus on that, because essentially, what my bill is trying to do is to define marriages between two people, Uh, regardless of sex, sexual orientation or gender identity and really at the heart, uh, of that proposition is do we choose the sexuality we have, Uh, or is it a gift from God? Is it a gift from our I have written a chapter in a book about [00:21:30] my sexuality, and for me, it is a gift from my I'm very proud of my Maori heritage. I'm proud of my, uh I'm proud of my parents. They're proud of me. And so, uh, for me finding out I was lesbian, uh, in my teenage years and then and then accepting that, um, identity, uh, meant that I don't see anything wrong with myself. I think I'm a pretty normal person. And I guess that's the issue. Do people see homosexual homosexuals [00:22:00] as normal people, or are we different? And one of the premises that I talked about today at the select committee was Is there a different type of citizenship for homosexuals or actually, as in as is contained in the 1948 United Nations declarations of of human rights. We are all born free and equal in dignity and rights. And so fundamentally, if we believe that all people are born free and equal in dignity and rights. What that means, [00:22:30] I think, is that the state has a responsibility to all of its citizens, uh, to ensure that they have access to all the social institutions and civil institutions that we have as a society have. And one of those actually is in the issuing of marriage licence licences. So in New Zealand, only the state can issue a marriage licence and other parts of the world. Uh, the state and the churches can issue marriage licences, But in the domain of marriage in our country, we've had very clear separation of state [00:23:00] and church. Um, when I was asked to talk about the evolution, I guess, of where we are now. Uh, I can talk about the evolution of of civilizations, but I'll talk about the evolution. Uh, that's happened here in in New Zealand. So 1986 homosexual law reform. Now, that was an over 20 year period, uh, process to, uh, fight for the rights of homosexual men. Uh, not to be criminals. And, um, I was born, [00:23:30] uh, in 1972. I'm 40. So working out the maths I was like, Oh, I wasn't born when the discussion and the debate debate started, But I was, like, 14. And to be honest with you, I can't remember it. It didn't touch the world the context of wait to. But I know that for New Zealand as a society, there was a big it was a big issue. And I know the churches, uh, were engaged. And, for example, the Salvation Army were very, um, involved in that [00:24:00] campaign, and they've been not so involved in this one to date. Um, so I know that as a country, we had a very big, uh, discussion about homosexuality. Well, where we came to as a country. Uh, in terms of that debate about homosexuality is that we accepted that homosexual New Zealanders should be able to live open free and honest lives. So that was in 1986 in 1993. Uh, when we, um, amended our Human Rights Act section [00:24:30] 21 we made it unlawful to discriminate against anybody based on their sexual orientation. 10 years post homosexual law reform. So 86 2005, Um, we have three lesbian couples, uh, who wanted to get married. They had committed themselves these women for a number of years to each other, and they wanted to publicly And I agree with Margaret to publicly, uh, show their families the communities [00:25:00] that they were part of, that they wanted to formalise that relationship. And that discussion then led to a court of appeal, a high court case, a court of appeal decision. So we had what is called the quilter case and the quilter decision here in A in New Zealand and, uh, in 1998 that decision, um, basically said we don't define who can get married. And if you literally read our marriage act, it doesn't prohibit, uh, marriages, Um, between same sex couples. [00:25:30] But what they looked at was the convention of 1955. And because homosexuality was still illegal and it was a crime, then the assumption was that there had been a definition and that it was that marriage in New Zealand was between a man and a woman. What that then led to, uh was a response from our government. And our government's response at that time was in 2004. Uh, we created the institution of civil union. So we had women, [00:26:00] three lesbian couples who wanted the ability to marry. The state's response was to create another institution called Civil Union. Uh, I believe where we are today, uh, was where we were in 1967 in the United States and where we were in New Zealand, Uh, in, um, 19. Uh, sorry. In 1995 when those lesbian couples went to the local registrar and wanted a a licence to marry, Um, I will talk, um, specifically, [00:26:30] and I'm going to read this because I made my submission today. And I did, uh, make a comment about, um, my bill, Um, that there has been, uh, factions and sections of our society trying to divide and rule. And I guess scaremongering, particularly with people of faith, because they they have been trying to say that there is a requirement that churches will be forced to marry any couple issued with a licence. Um, it has never been that situation [00:27:00] ministers who, as celebrants, uh, can only provide access to the ceremonial and sacramental space of the church, and they have always been able to refuse to officiate for whatever reason. So examples from the past as Margaret highlighted, um, show that they can be on the basis of one of the party's religious beliefs or their race. Section 29 of the Marriage Act 1955 remains unchanged, and what that says is [00:27:30] celebrants and that includes ministers are authorised but not obliged to marry. A couple who have obtained a licence from the state and further the Bill of Rights Act 1990 identifies freedom of religion and Section 13, and that overrides any suggestion of unlawful discrimination being claimed under the Human Rights Act 1993 um A. As Section six of the Bill of Rights Act 1990 states clearly that the rights and freedoms in the Bill of Rights [00:28:00] Act 1990 are preferred. So what that essentially means is we have two domestic pieces of human rights legislation. One is the Bill of Rights Act, which guarantees freedom of religion. The other is, um, Section 21 of our, um, Human Rights Act, which says you can't discriminate based on section sexual orientation. But what it says is within the specific context of a church, a particular church denomination within the context of this beautiful church that we're in now. [00:28:30] It is the rules of this church that are dominant. Nobody can demand to come in here and be married. If Margaret says no, the answer is no. They can't then go to the police or to the Human Rights Commission or anybody else and say, uh, I demand because I'm being discriminated against by Margaret to be married in this church. It's not possible. And I think that some of the miscommunication [00:29:00] excuse me and scaremongering that's been happening, uh, in society. So what I'm asking for actually is some tolerance and understanding of each of our context. So some of us who have particular religious beliefs. I'm saying to you that my bill isn't going to undermine your definition of marriage, your view of marriage, how your church practises marriage. That's for you to determine. What I'm saying, though, is please have some understanding, some respect. And [00:29:30] also, I guess, some consideration, uh, for the fact that we live in a very multiethnic, multicultural society, Uh, that each of us have different ways of expressing ourselves. And so for some members of our community who are non heterosexual, the ability to actually marry is very significant. Um, I know Kevin's gonna talk a bit more about the campaign when he comes out, but really, the the key message that I have [00:30:00] is about we live in this beautiful country, and there's many of us who live here now. And, um, I think what is also um, happening is conversations that possibly have never happened before. And so our values, our beliefs, who we are, I want to preserve that, um, but I'm asking people to think about what type of life it must be, particularly if you're a young, lesbian, gay, [00:30:30] transgender, transsexual person growing up in a society that actually says you're different you're not the same as me. Uh, in fact, we're not gonna allow you to have marriage because you're not worthy. You're not entitled. Um, the issue, uh, for me about the relevance to younger New Zealanders, Uh, one I think that this is a generational issue. Um, and that has been evidence for me in referendum [00:31:00] held at both the University of Otago and the University of Victoria, where 84% of the young people who participated in that, uh, support marriage equality. But it's also really relevant when I look at the high rates of youth suicide that we have in our country. And I believe one of the big issues that we have to confront as a country is the fact that our Children are growing up hopeless. There's no hope they're growing up in an environment. Uh, that somehow isn't meeting [00:31:30] their needs or isn't providing them the resilience for them to be who they are. And so, if this conversation can also open that conversation up, uh, to the religious community so that we can start, you know, looking at engaging quite critically about the state of our young people's mental health. Uh, then that will be significant. And I think, um, that, uh, that opportunity has been provided for, so thank you very much. I look forward to answering questions. [00:32:00] Um, and I will pass the ball, as they say on to Kevin, and hopefully he can catch it tonight. Um, I'm an atheist. You know, I did have several brushes with religion, probably Sunday [00:32:30] school when I was between the ages of about four and six, I think. And, um and then a brief period in a group called the Crusaders when I was when I was 12. I don't know if the name gives anything away, but it was, and it probably has formed some some some, uh, some lasting impressions of, um, of religion, uh, around conformity, um, around a defence of [00:33:00] the status quo. Um, and those are prejudices of mine. Those prejudice prejudices were confronted for me. Um, during the campaign, probably about 1980 I think, as we were starting to wind up the campaign against the Springbok tour and, uh, several of the people in the coalition that I was part of, uh, that I related to the most and found that I had the most in common [00:33:30] with in terms of our values and beliefs, uh, turned out to be, uh, students at the Baptist Theological College in Auckland and and, uh, happily for me, I guess II I have been able to form form a relationship that's been ongoing, uh, with the progressive wings of, Of of many of our churches and II I quite proudly say that, um, some of my best friends have [00:34:00] religious belief and faith, But in the in the mid 19 eighties, in fact, um, so at the time when we were campaigning, um, for for homosexual law reform at the same time, there was also a campaign going on. This is in Auckland, um, against the proposed all black tour of South Africa. And so, actually, what we had was a bunch of people who were rushing from protest to protest and meeting to meeting [00:34:30] between these various and potentially, I guess disparate causes. But actually, we realised that that the the while we put down the the the banners for one and picked up the banners for the for the other. Um, actually, the thing that was uniting us as a group and uniting those issues was a passion for justice. And so we said, Well, rather than have all of these, we joked, In fact, it would never work as APR thing rather than [00:35:00] have all of these disparate little organisations. Why don't we just call ourselves the Alliance for Justice? And I can happily say that in the intervening, uh, nearly 30 years, that again and again I've found myself working alongside either those precise people or people very much like those people who share that same passion for justice and those same values. Um, Lewis [00:35:30] has mentioned those those, um, those arguments about about health, about suicide. And some of you will have seen my first reading speech on the bill where I talked about how that passion for justice for our young people was what drove me in particular because for me, as a an adult gay man and some of you will have heard me say this before, uh, my life now is immeasurably better than [00:36:00] the life that I would have led in Let's see the late seventies when I was in the process of coming out, Uh, and I'm proud to say that I've contributed to many of those changes But for the young person coming out today, I really don't know that it's actually that much better or easier, uh, than it than it was for me in the late seventies. Because still, there's that that feeling of isolation, um, of, [00:36:30] uh, loneliness, that, uh, that, uh, sense of difference in contrast to all of those other influences in that in that young person's life, because probably their family has brought them up, assuming them to be heterosexual, that they themselves and their friends have probably assumed them to be heterosexual. And they are surrounded by a schooling system that, by and large, assumes that they will be heterosexual [00:37:00] and a new and a I can say news media. But a general media so general culture that with only a very few exceptions, makes that same assumption. So the the leap that that person has to make from that scary, lonely place to to coming out into an environment that those of us who are adult, um, gay or lesbian or transgender people know to be actually a lot better [00:37:30] than that, um, actually is pretty hard. So so that contribution to the the mental health and also the the physical health, Um, of our young people is actually really what drives me. Um, I could rave about that for a very long time, but I, I won't. Actually I'll I'll refer to the the the point that Margaret's made about, um, about, uh, the the what's called the loving case loving, [00:38:00] actually, interestingly, in a couple of different ways, uh, loving in this case because it's the name of the people involved. It was the It was the Lovings who who were a next race couple who and let's see, I think it was 1958 left the, uh, left the state of the state or the Commonwealth. Sorry of Virginia, um, and, um, and went to the District of Columbia to become [00:38:30] married. They were a mixed race couple. It was illegal for them to become married in the state of in the Commonwealth of Virginia. But having having having got married in in in the, uh, in, uh, in DC, they came back to Virginia and they were, um, they were arrested for having for having breached, uh, the, uh the the the laws of that state, which [00:39:00] prohibited, uh, prohibited marriage between people of different races Just read to you. Um, what happened in in the court case? Because they they lost their their their court case. They were found they were convicted in Virginia and they were, uh, sentenced to, I think, uh, let's see, a year in prison, uh, suspended, Provided that they left Virginia. Um, and the the trial judge in the case, um, [00:39:30] proclaimed that I'll just give you a quote. Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, Malay and red. And he and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference, as with his arrangements, there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to [00:40:00] mix. Now, I I cite that for for a couple of reasons. Um, one of them is Is this that actually the the arguments in the United States that were used to defend the ban on I? I can never actually pronounce this word. Miscegenation, miscegenation, mixed race marriage. However you're supposed to pronounce there. The arguments that were used [00:40:30] are precisely the arguments that are now being used against same sex marriage. Precisely so there's the argument of tradition. For example, there's the slippery slope argument that that you've heard talk talked about tonight on the, um and most recently in America. And we've we've had our own, um uh, arguments based on a slippery slope that we've seen recently here. But, um, they echo comments from, for example, [00:41:00] Rick Santorum in in America about Well, if we if we allow same sex marriage, what will be next? Is people wanting to marry their pets? Um, and and And indeed, this is one of the arguments that was used by the by the Virginia authorities in the appeal that the Lovings took against their conviction because they challenged, uh, the Commonwealth of Virginia's laws. [00:41:30] And, uh, let me, um, let me let me read to you, uh, just, uh, 11 more quote from from the, um, from the ancients. Um, so this is from the, uh, from the the assistant attorney general of Virginia, uh, arguing, uh, their their case. It is clear from the most recent available evidence on the psycho sociological aspect of this question. Uh, that, um, intermarried families [00:42:00] are subjected to much greater pressures and problems, um, than others. and that the state's prohibition on of interracial marriage for this reason stands on the same footing as the prohibition of polygamous marriage or incestuous marriage, or the prescription of minimum ages at which people may marry and the prevention of marriage of people who are mentally incompetent. So that same argument is being used in New Zealand right now as [00:42:30] well as in the states. Um, there's an argument that again, that Virginia used in the Supreme Court about, um, the welfare of Children, arguing that the Children of interracial marriages would be subject to, uh, uh, AAA particular kind of penalty and that they should be regarded as victims or martyrs of of, uh, of the social experiment. Um, and there are several others. [00:43:00] So the arguments are entirely parallel. I am. I thought I should perhaps come come back to to read from the Happy conclusion, because the Supreme Court in 1967 did overturn the Virginia law and, um, and in a unanimous agreement and the unanimous decision that what they said was, marriage is one of the basic civil rights of man. [00:43:30] I'm sorry. Well, I'm not quoting there. What they what I said. I'm sorry they didn't apologise for that. But I'm sure they would now, um, fundamental to our very existence and survival to deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial racial classifications embodied in this these statutes classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the 14th [00:44:00] Amendment, which, uh, which is the amendment that provides for due process and equal protection under the law, uh, is surely to deprive all the state's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The 14th Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted to by invidious racial discrimination. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry or not marry a person of another race resides [00:44:30] with the individual and cannot be infringed by the state. And they go on to make precisely the human rights argument that you've heard from Louisa Wall tonight. Precisely that argument that there is no there is no rational ground for for denying that equal right to some citizens of the state. Um so I think Oh, look, I, I just have to give you one more quote. Sorry. [00:45:00] This is this is a quote right from this is a quote, not from 1967. It's a quote from 2007, and this is actually from Mildred loving and what she said. So she is the person the the who was was able to marry. Finally, through the through the Supreme Court decision, she said, surrounded as I am now by wonderful Children and grandchildren. Not a day goes by that I don't think of Richard and our love, [00:45:30] our right to marry and how much it meant to me to have that freedom to marry the person precious to me, even if others thought he was the wrong kind of person for me to marry. I believe all Americans, no matter their race no matter their sex no matter their sexual orientation, should have that same freedom to marry. Government has no business imposing some [00:46:00] people's religious beliefs over others, especially if it denies people's civil rights. I am still not a political person, but I am proud that Richard's in my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness and the family that so many people, black or white, young or old, gay or straight seek in life, I support the freedom to marry for all that's what loving [00:46:30] big L and loving small L are all about. I think that's pretty terrific. I am. To me, this is a measure that brings great good to a great number of people and harms nobody at all. And that seems to be a pretty good basis for a law. I, um I said for the first time on the select committee today, hearing [00:47:00] submissions on the bill. We had a fantastic submission. It was it was taught. It was compelling. It was comprehensive. Um, and we're going to be sitting an awful lot over the coming months. Um, so thanks to everyone who put in submissions, there are, um Well, so far, they've counted over 20,000. Um, and they haven't finished counting yet. And so they can't yet [00:47:30] tell us, um, how many are in favour and how many are against and where people come from. Uh, but the select committee's got some some some work to do so that we can report back the bill by the end of February. Uh, the the state of the campaign is thus we and I. I want to acknowledge, um, a lot of people in this room today, and especially in fact, uh, Margaret [00:48:00] Maman and those involved from from the campaign who I see and from, uh, Rainbow Wellington, and and others who have worked hard for this bill in that first reading debate, the media were calling it as well. It's going to be close. We think maybe they they'll just have the numbers for the first reading. Um, and in fact, what we saw was a result of 80 in favour and 40 against. That's a really emphatic result. [00:48:30] Um, and it's, uh it's a tribute to the great organisational work that many of you were involved in doing. So thank you very much for that. One of the things about that emphatic result is that it it it it makes it less likely that that future debates will go a different way. But having said that, um, the the civil unions bill campaign went from a really good result at first [00:49:00] reading to not exactly whisker thin, but a very thin margin at the at the next. At the next reading and eventually to a whisk whisker thin margin so the things can go can go wrong for this. Um, so the things that we've done, right, uh, working with MP S and helping helping them to get to the point of supporting the bill in the first reading, organising a a very great number of submissions. [00:49:30] And what I particularly like about the submissions that I know that I've seen so far in favour of the bill is that is that they are generally submissions that that that are ones that, uh, are arguing a personal story or arguing unique arguments. Uh, rather than simply a form submission that that parrots set a set of arguments. That's very important. It's very important because one [00:50:00] of the things that the select Committee will do is say Well, with in excess of 20,000 submissions, um, and until the end of February, to hear submissions, it is not possible to hear all of the submissions of people who want to make oral submissions. So all of those who have made form submissions and this is a standard process. Um, we will not hear those. Those submitters in person [00:50:30] will read those submissions, um, and guarantee people that we'll do that but, uh, we we won't in fact hear oral submissions for from them. So the fact that so many of the submissions in favour of the bill, uh, in in fact not in the nature of form submissions is incredibly important. The other thing that that that that the campaign for marriage equality has done right at this point is, uh is the approach that's [00:51:00] been taken to, um, to to MP S across the house and in particular, several MP S have come to me and said it was fantastic that, um, people contacted me to thank me for voting for the bill. Um, and I think that's very important. If you haven't thanked MP S yet for voting for the bill, that would be a really great thing to do. Um, there [00:51:30] the and and, uh, on the other side of the equation, there's a group of people, of course, who voted against the bill. Interestingly, we know that some of those MP S who voted against the bill personally support it, but are just scared about the consequence of voting for it. Um, and it may well be that we can that we can persuade some of those to come over in the time ahead. What's going to happen is that is that through until the end of February, [00:52:00] the the main phase of things is going to be this hearing of submissions and there'll there'll be a regular round of media media. I'm sure associated with those submissions. We'll hear the next batch of submissions next Wednesday. Submissions are generally held in public. You're in Wellington. If you'd like to come along, please do. It's always always great to have to have people in the room. Then we'll get into the business of the second reading. [00:52:30] And that'll be another set piece debate very much like that. First reading. Great to have people in the gallery, but also great to have people contacting MP S and and giving support for the moral courage to continue to support the bill. Uh, and then the committee stage. But we need to we need to, um, as a vegetarian. This is maybe the wrong metaphor. But eat the elephant one bite at a time. So so, So second reading [00:53:00] is the is is our next focus. So so getting those submissions done as as well as we can and then the second reading debate to go as well as it can. And then we'll come to the committee stage. And then finally, that third reading, Um, and we'll we'll we'll have advice that that we'll keep feeding through via the campaign. So thank you very much for your support. Thanks for coming tonight. And thanks to Margaret for organising the forum. [00:53:30] So we do have an opportunity for questions on the floor and we've got a radio mic. Um, so if you want to, um, make a quick for a question or a comment, um, please feel free to do that and raise your hand. That is a great place to start. And if you would like to say who in particular you'd like to have respond to it, that would be great. Thank you, Thank you. My name is Paul Franken and I speak for myself. Um, I think the point that was made about tolerance is [00:54:00] a very good one. We we, as a society are very accepting and in fact welcome the old Catholic and Latin hymns and masses on the concert programme. I think the churches should be equally welcoming to the wonderful quality of the gay people that are around and accepting instead of maybe tolerating them. Uh, what I want to my my main question or my remark is on the separation [00:54:30] of the church and the state if one gets married and I was married some time ago, Um, after the ceremony, you go into the side room and you sign the civil contract. It is quite a separate contract if two people and I've confirmed that from the ER, the people that I'm still practising myself at the moment, if two people come to a Catholic priest and say that they do not intend to [00:55:00] have any Children, the priest cannot marry them. If people come to the church, uh, the the priest, and ask them to marry them. Uh, but they are infertile or they are old and beyond the the age of reproduction. Then, for some reason, or rather, the church will marry them. Uh, on the positive point of view that maybe everything will turn out right. But there is a mixed blessing [00:55:30] the final point that I want to make there, that if the highest court in the Catholic Church, uh, annul a marriage, then it has absolutely no effect on the civil state of that marriage. It is completely concerned with the sacrament that they're welcome to. They've annulled that. But for as far as the state is concerned, that decision of that court or tribunal make any difference at all. So [00:56:00] we are separate. And if the churches want to have an input and a decision on ruling other people's lives, their own constituents let them recognise that there is a separation of state. I've been to too many funerals for people that have committed suicide. I went to a funeral last weekend of two old people. [00:56:30] One was 85. The other one that died is 77 in Macedon, and the the 85 year old has no ability or opportunity to grieve in public on the loss of his partner. He was completely effaced from the notices in the church and the notices in the paper and from the, uh, celebration of the funeral that I did attend. [00:57:00] Yeah, I just want to respond just briefly to that. I mean, there is a lot of grief that the church still causes, and I think, um, as people of faith, we need to acknowledge that. And I think, um I mean, I do make an appeal for for tolerance and for making space, but I think that comes with some responsibility to recognise the humanity of others. And I just hold out hope that, you know, the churches do change. There have been lots of, um, [00:57:30] areas of Christian understanding of marriage and all sorts of other things that have changed and parts of the church are, you know, well and truly changed. And like being able to talk about the the weddings that have been held here, um, and the civil unions, um, I think we need to hold on to the hope and hold on to the expectation that people can behave better. The the church and state stuff is complicated in New Zealand because as a clergy person, you do perform a role. Um, you are the one that signs that document. Um, [00:58:00] we don't do it often in a side room, but it's part of the service. Usually, um and that's one of the difficulties I think that we face. Whereas in some places in Europe, um, people go and have their civil marriage, and then they come to their faith community if they want to and have a blessing. And I would prefer that we had that. I think the churches actually would be better off. Um, not being agents of the state. But at the moment, we've got the situation that we've got. We we've inherited English law rather than European law, and we have to find a way to work that out and to really [00:58:30] respect the human rights and dignity of all members of our society. Hi, Tony. Tony Reid, Rainbow Wellington. But on this case. But in this case, speaking for myself as an unfortunate constituent in Otaki of Nathan Guy MP, Um, I wrote to him, of course he avoided Everybody got a reply saying he hadn't made up his mind. He refused to debate [00:59:00] anybody and then voted against the bill. If he's said anything, it just seems to be Oh, well, I'm voting on what my constituents said, and anyway, I'm socially conservative. I had covered specifically the fact that I knew he was likely to get far more against than in favour because of all the fundamentalists there are around our way and the fact that in rural areas [00:59:30] a lot of gay people aren't going to put their heads over over the balustrade to say I mean, it's a well known fact that Levin is possibly one of the worst places to be gay in the whole of New Zealand. But I'm sure I'm not unique here in having an MP who is very difficult to reach, who doesn't seem to want to indulge in debate in discussion, who almost treats his vote as if he's a private citizen [01:00:00] rather than an MP, which really annoys me because he shouldn't vote. If he's just voting on a personal whim, he should just stay away. But he won't, um, so I would devalue from from the two MP S here, any suggestion of what people like me can do? And there might be people here from the Wairarapa who are possibly in even worse condition, a worse situation than people from Well, [01:00:30] um, who do you know that he likes? I mean, this is the thing. Uh, I mean, I think, uh, I I would guess from what you've said, Tony and and also from from my experience, um, that he probably is not someone who's going to change his mind. And therefore we need to think about whether it's worthwhile or valuable to put energy into trying [01:01:00] to change his mind. And if you have energy to burn instead to put into, um, uh, put into supporting some of the others who who have who have supported. And I think that's that's probably what what I would suggest, Um, there are, I mean it. It is always, of course, worthwhile letting your MP know, because there are some surprises. I mean, on on the first reading night, I think we were all surprised by some of the people who voted, voted in favour. [01:01:30] Um, and I believe that it's possible that there are some who voted no who could be persuaded to vote. Yes, but it's a question of who is talking to them because I know give you an example of a national party MP who was intending to vote? No, um, but who had people coming coming to see him, um, to try and persuade him otherwise. And [01:02:00] they were people that he identified as non national voters. So what? What He was what he said to me as well. It's interesting what they think, But why would I, um, pay attention to that now you or I might think that's an abhorrent way of making a decision. But it's it's a reality that, actually, some of these people will respond when they think that there are actual actually votes that are [01:02:30] either for them or potentially for them that are at risk. So think about who is the right person to go and see them. And and I'm happy to help with that. So the only thing I can add is that each of us has teams of people around us. So it might be, uh, Nathan Guy's Electorate committee. A member of that. I'm not sure if you know who they are. Someone from his office. Um, but we are in a very good [01:03:00] position because we had 80 people who voted for the bill. Now we don't take any of those votes other than ourselves. Well, mind you, uh, 14 green votes, because they, um, are voting as a party. Um, I don't take for granted, um, anyone's vote. So we're working all the time to make sure we're communicating with those that voted in support. And I think if we do that, if we keep the people that we've got. In fact, we do have the numbers, but, um, I'm disappointed that people don't want [01:03:30] to engage in conversation. Um, I think that this opportunity for us to talk about, uh, this issue means that, you know, it is incumbent on MP SI believe, um to talk to people who are for and against. I've had people come and lobby me, and I said, you realise, this is my bill, but I've heard them. I've seen them in my electorate office, and I've given them the respect, um, and asked them to think about some things, but yeah, but, um, thank you for your work. My name's Colma [01:04:00] Frogger, and I'm a member of Saint Andrews. Um, my I made a submission, um, in support of the bill. It's the first time I've ever made a submission for anything in my life. Um, but my story, which is quite simple, might actually be helpful for Nathan guy because I suspect that most people here tonight are in support of Louisa's Bill. For me, it's a very straightforward [01:04:30] issue of fairness and justice. Um, I have two adult Children. I have a son who is about to get married. Um, he has the choice of a civil union or a wedding. A marriage, um, in a church or wherever he chooses. My daughter doesn't, um she is gay. Um, And I would like my daughter and her partner to have the same rights and recognition as my son does. So [01:05:00] if there are people here who aren't in support of the bill, perhaps you might like to think again. And if you know people who haven't made up their minds or who might like to change their minds, perhaps the simple story might help. Thank you. Thanks very much. Thank you. Hi, [01:05:30] there. My name is Frans. I'm, um Everybody will start. Everybody will start hissing boo when I say I'm an A kid. But I kept a very, very open mind, and I've heard all the talk from the tree here. Sadly, I was a little bit, um, shaken by the seemed to be a certain amount of hate there. I'm sorry. Coming from Margaret. Um it seemed to be it seemed to be sort of a hate thing. OK, the church is not perfect, but the thing is, it, um it's it's like a sort of a sign [01:06:00] post for people who are obviously in need. Obviously, they don't unfortunately in the past cater for everybody. But I think there's there's a little bit of bit of hate there, and they seem to be slanted that one way because, you know, you got two people have got to sort of get together and and you got to have more dialogue. And I think you really do have to have a lot more dialogue on this. OK, your bill could pass, but you still need to have a dialogue because, you know, the church is not the gap, but the church is not the bad guys. [01:06:30] No, they're not all these bad guys. There's some really good people there from all churches, but I'm just a little bit disappointed with Margaret. But everybody else, um, I will give you all a fair hearing, and I'm sympathetic. I I'm not a sort of a a gay basher or anything like that. I'm very open. But, uh, you know, that's how I feel. And, uh, nice to see you again. Um, Louisa there, uh, shame you couldn't get your, uh, your, uh, basketball things on again. That's me. Anyhow, So, uh, Margaret's [01:07:00] going to answer that. I would I would like to respond to that. I think, um, if you listen to what I said, um, in terms of what I expressed I, I think there are, um there is a real need for dialogue. And that's one of the things I want to say to people who are upset about what churches are saying because it is true that most of the opposition that's come to this bill is religious opposition. And we, as people of faith, need to deal with that. Um, you know, I spend my life in the church. You know, I, I love [01:07:30] the church. Um, and I love what it can be and become, and I'm also very aware of its flaws. Um, but one of the things that we try to do in a situation like this is to provide a place for people to, um, speak respectfully. And that means for me acknowledging, um, it means being truthful, too, to tell the truth. And when there is injury, um, to acknowledge that. And I think, you know, as people of faith we have done and the church actually has been the bad guy. Um, the church has been the bearer [01:08:00] of, um, a great deal of hatred, um, two people. And if you remember what it was like on the steps of Parliament during the 19 eighties, with those rallies, there are still people who are very damaged by that. There are people who are gay and lesbian who grew up in churches who signed that, um, petition that the Salvation Army was putting around because they felt, um that they had no choice. And they lived with the damage that they did to themselves. So I want to As somebody who is involved in the church and involved in this, um [01:08:30] to to really recognise that we do have, um we do have some apologies to make, and I and I hope that as the church has been involved in other things that have been unjust and has eventually seen things differently and made apologies, we will apologise to gay and lesbian people, Um, for the fact that we have been the bearers of a lot of opposition. And I think, um, you know, still contribute, um, to a lot of pain, especially for young people who grow up in conservative churches. One [01:09:00] of the things that marks my ministry here is that I because people know that I'm gay and part of the church, I'm a person that young people coming out growing up in Christian conservative, Christian faith communities come and talk to. And I know, um, how hard it is for them. And, um and I know that despite the rhetoric of, um, love the sinner and hate the sin, that there's a whole lot of hating going on in terms of how people are treated. I'm in contact with a woman, um, who lives in another city at the moment who is being [01:09:30] harassed and exposed, Um, by Christians. Um, because she's gay and she's been working in a conservative church position. She's losing her family, her friends and her job because of people who are acting in the name of Jesus Christ. So I think it's really important to name um what? What what has been, um, and to be honest about, it's not about hate. It's about acknowledging, um, that we bear some responsibility. And that's part of the reason that a community like Saint Andrews on the terrace is engaged in standing [01:10:00] up, um, in solidarity, not just passively letting the bill go by because it will get by without us. But it is really important that we contribute to a conversation that's about changing the way that we talk about one another and about, um, moving towards real respect. [01:10:30] Um, I'm a Roman Catholic, and, uh, I, um, decided, um, that our Lord Jesus Christ is, uh, taught us that he was, uh that God was a god of universal love and justice. So I he he Would he let God, uh, left [01:11:00] us, or our Lord Jesus Christ left us to work out the details of our morality given, uh, the overall injunction to love one another and to be just, which means treating like cases alike. Now, Saint Thomas Aquinas wrote, uh, about 1000 years ago. The following, uh, on what [01:11:30] a sin was a sin in human acts is that which is against the order of reason. Now, the order of reason consists in its ordering everything to its end in a fitting manner. Therefore, it is no sin if one by the dictator of reason makes use of certain things in a fitting manner and order for the end for which they are adapted. Provided this end is something truly good. Now, the the in the past, uh, various Christian [01:12:00] religions, um, were against, uh, or Christian sex. I should say we're we're against, uh, homosexual union on the basis that there was no obvious that it served no obvious purpose. But tonight, we've heard, uh, that, of course, when two people bond and care for one another, uh, they should, uh, proceed accordingly. However, [01:12:30] um, Saint Thomas also teaches us that the sac sacrament of marriage is conveyed by the partners upon one another. And neither the the church is merely a witness where that is possible in New Zealand up until 1918, I think it wasn't possible for priests to witness a marriage on the part of the church, so it was quite acceptable for couples to convey this argument of matrimony upon one another in country [01:13:00] districts. And so on until subsequently a priest could take notice of the not the marriage down on on behalf of the church. And basically what what I'm saying is that, um, in the teachings of the Catholic Church, there is actually plenty of room for change in the assessment, for example, we now know that, uh, that the that human women, uh, cease to be fertile halfway through their lives. This is very [01:13:30] rare prac practically unique in the animal world. And the reason is, of course, um, that it takes more than a single generation, uh, to raise Children. So women, um, cease to be fertile halfway through their age so that in general they can help their daughters bring up their Children and so on and so forth. It now appears that, um, nature provides us with further spare hands in the [01:14:00] business of raising Children. Um, by, um, ensuring that, uh, a fairly large number of people are going to be, uh, uh, infertile because they're homosexual. And this is actually turns out to be rather a good thing. And in most, um, natural societies, uh, homosexuality is just not even noticed. Um, if you live in Samoa or [01:14:30] something like that, um, they also, by the way, in Samoa look after teenage boys by making them look after their baby brothers and sisters, which is quite fun to watch sulky teenagers humping babies around. Um, so I, I think, uh, one of the problems with the Catholic Church, and of course, I I've long been a critic of it. Um, is that the marriage? Uh uh, Bond has been denied our clergy, and [01:15:00] this, by the way, is not a matter of faith or morals at all. It's merely an administrative convenience, because the Catholic church for hundreds and hundreds of years, uh, decided it did not wish to take responsibility for clerical families. Now, this is not universal. In the Lebanon, for example, in the east and right, Catholic priests marry and have Children and behave like normal people. Um, I was having a bit of an argument with my parish priest, uh, a few months ago, uh, about celibacy [01:15:30] and, um, the great evil that it has brought upon the church. Uh, in the case of the paedophilia cases which are now worldwide. And, uh, he said to me, uh, the lords will will prevail, and I said, Look, Father, you can't blame the good Lord for the behaviour of his servants, much less his clergy. Sort of a stony silence. And my sons gripped my elbow and steered me away. [01:16:00] Now I think that within the church. We have to, uh, fight back and claim the church because it belongs to us. And I feel, you know, my forebears built those cathedrals in Europe, were responsible for the great music and art of the Catholic Church, and and and and Saint Thomas just by way, uh, rescued Aristotle from oblivion. [01:16:30] And, uh, in the year between 304 100 AD, uh, San Augustine rescued, uh, Plato from oblivion. Although Plato was less wise choice because he was probably the first fascist philosopher. Sorry. Excuse me, I I'm sort of in the situation of cheering and answering. I think thank you so much. You've made some really interesting points, but let's make sure we have time for everybody to answer. Thank you. And if anyone wants to respond, [01:17:00] the defeat of Mitt Romney has emboldened me to make further comments about socially conservative people. I want first of all to address the point of view that some people have advanced that giving the right of marriage to gay people will somehow besmirch marriage will somehow ruin it. I [01:17:30] think the only people who can ruin marriage are people who are married themselves. My marriage is in fact, vulnerable only to what my wife and I do. We are the only ones who can be merchant No-one else can do that. So I I that's the first criticism. The second criticism is that so much of what comes from church circles comes from the evangelical, right, both of the Catholic Church and Protestant Church, uh, branches [01:18:00] of the church. And they have a saying in there, which they've picked, I think, out of context from something that attributed to Jesus that you've got to be born again. I think an earlier project which will yield a lot better results, was just grow up. OK, uh, question for all [01:18:30] three of you. Um, I'm just interested to hear what you'd have to say of if you all are. Supporters of this bill, um, were presented with a kind of situation that both have passed become law and gay couples are able to, you know, both members of the partnership be able to be legal guardians of Children. Um, how are [01:19:00] you going to protect the rights of the surrogate mom or dad? That's obviously necessary. Um, for that gay marriage to actually create Children. Do you mean in a situation of adoption or or or, you know, or adoption or whatever. Uh, well, um, [01:19:30] this is a it's It's an issue that's not strictly about, um this this bill, Um, because the, uh, the situation around is there's actually very little law a around it. And so the courts are scrambling to try and find some solutions, um, to legal problems that do come up. Uh, As you might know, I, uh, I have another bill, um, which actually will address surrogacy issues. And [01:20:00] and the fundamental recommendation of that of or fundamental point of that bill which follows the law commission's recommendation, is that when you're making decisions about adoption or about surrogacy or about guardianship has already exists in the care of Children act, the the paramount principle must be the best interest of the child. Um, and, uh, that's that's the basis that that, um that that my bill would would [01:20:30] address surrogacy issues on, um, my bill also would provide for for some particular rights and responsibilities around the around the person who is the surrogate mother of the child. Yeah. I just want we haven't spent a lot of time talking about Children. But one of the things that sort of surprises me about, um the reactions of people about, you know this will also make it possible for gay people to adopt Children is the sort of failure to recognise of a lot of people in New Zealand that a lot of a huge number of gay people are already bringing [01:21:00] up Children. Um, you know, either through, um, adopt adoption, but that's probably pretty rare. It's often through previous relationships that my partner, Claire and I are bringing up Andrew, but Andrew's dad still involved in our life. We have all sorts of complicated, um, and wonderful family relationships. Um, that already exist. And one of the things about civil unions and our marriage is that how I think it helps and strengthens the relationships that the the rights of Children growing up in New Zealand so that their parents' relationship is legally recognised. [01:21:30] And I know that the social recognition was really important for our son Andrew, Um, when Claire and I had our civil union here in Saint Andrews, and for I mean, he'd always been absolutely fine about us, but having that public celebration that support of our friends, our family and our congregation meant an enormous amount to him. And I think you can't underestimate how important it is to be able to say my parents are married. Um, you know, and your parents may not be, And that's fine, too, in New Zealand. Um, but for for those kids, that really is important. And it's a reality [01:22:00] that already exists in our society. We do need to finish now, so I just, um, want to because they do have to get back to their work. Um, but I want to say thank you so much. Um, Louisa and Kevin for participating in tonight and, um, for sharing what's going on and the thinking behind this. And I hope that this has been an opportunity, um, for all of you just to encourage engagement and conversation as you go through this. There's been so many issues in New Zealand where people have got polarised, um, around different things, [01:22:30] that really in the end, we've all got on and and managed to live with. And I hope that we can use this. Um, you know, when we go back to our friends and families over Christmas or whatever holiday we're celebrating that we engage in respectful conversation with one another and try to help, um, people understand what this is all about and how good it is for New Zealand society. So as we leave, I'm gonna ask Peter who to play a song. And it's a song by a, um evangelical, formerly evangelical Christian, I guess. No, he's still an evangelical Christian singer. Um, Ray Bolts. [01:23:00] He was, um, a big on the American, um, evangelical Christian music scene, I have to say. And then he came out and his, um, as often happens, and, um, I reckon his music has got heap better. Since he came out, he's been hanging out with some good people. Um, but he's been involved with the marriage equality movement in, um, the States. And this song actually takes the story of, um, Mildred and Richard loving as its starting point. And it talks about 1966 and their wedding and the people who are hoping for weddings now. So I know these [01:23:30] guys have to leave as we play it, but I invite you to listen and just to locate our story, um, within their story. And, um, and listen to the encouraging words. Thank you all very much for coming tonight.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089366
TITLE: Mike Keegan - Older Gay Men
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Mike Keegan
INTERVIEWER: John Kelly
TAGS: 1950s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Aquarius Club; Auckland; Cambodia; Canterbury earthquake 2011; China; Fifth Season Garden Group; Friends of Friends; Mike Keegan; OUTLine NZ; Older Gay Men; Over the Rainbow; Pride Centre; Rainbow Youth; Thailand; children; civil unions; coming out; crime; death; depression; discrimination; family; friends; gay retirement village; homophobia; marriage; marriage equality; murder; relationships; rest homes; retirement; sport; tramping; travel
DATE: 31 October 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Mike talks about what it's like to be an older gay man in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I got married. I didn't know too much about homosexuality. I knew that I was gay. Well, I didn't know what gay even was in those days. And in the provincial city I lived in, uh, you heard people say, Oh, he's a puf or he's queer or something like that, but and I knew I was attracted to guys, but, um, as time went by, I became more and more to them until finally, uh, my wife and [00:00:30] myself separated and got divorced. But in the meantime, we'd had two Children, and they were growing up, and so it was time to move on. And how many years of marriage? 31 years. Uh, we both say my wife, my ex-wife and myself both say that for the last 15 years, we probably shouldn't have, uh, being married because, uh, I don't think it was just solely me. It was I don't think my was a [00:01:00] I suppose with time you fall out of love. I suppose if it's love or whatever, but, um, she also knew I was gay. And so But she was most insistent that we we remained friends because we'd had some very, very good times together. And whilst I don't think we had bad times, we were together. We weren't as good a friends in the last 15 years as what we were in the 1st [00:01:30] 15 years. And for that reason, it was, um, it helped tremendously. Um, I lost my son four years ago, who was murdered? And, uh, if we hadn't have been good friends, uh, that that really helped us, that bond between us that, you know, we could hold each other up, and it was a very sad time for us. It must have been, Yes. It was a wonderful thing that you were [00:02:00] on good terms with your wife. And thank goodness we were my daughter at the time was living in England and she flew out and he brought Trent's body home to New Zealand, and, uh, we could all support each other. And although the family were, you know, my son was dominantly based in Ireland and was overseas. Uh, and I don't and I haven't lived for 20 odd years with my [00:02:30] ex. We we were a very family that was spread all over the world, but, um, still very close. If you know what I mean, um, my Children accepted. I was gay. It was No, not a problem. Um, initial shock, I suppose. But, uh, certainly not a problem nowadays. And in fact, um um well, they know a lot of my friends and socialise [00:03:00] with them. They put them up in their house and that so being gay is not a not a problem with them. And that's, uh that's a wonderful thing. Um, yeah. I don't know what else to say in that respect. So you wouldn't have had any discrimination about being gay before things became legal Because you're still married, then? Yes. I. I can remember that. Um, they used to drink with a lot of guys after [00:03:30] after playing squash or golf, and they used to say, Oh, they were really anti, um, this gay homosexual law reforms, et cetera. And I couldn't see the love of me. And at that stage, I probably knew that I was gay, but I couldn't see whose business it was except the people involved. If someone wants to live with someone or or be whatever with someone who's who else and I think that's [00:04:00] the attitude I've always taken. Who else is who Who else is, um, what does it matter? Because no one else is going to be affected by it. It's no one else's business, Really. I mean, it doesn't worry me, and I don't think it ever has. So you'd be all for this gay marriage bill that's been mooted. I really don't think about it much. I. I, uh I wonder what all the fuss is about. It, Um, [00:04:30] I we've They've got the civil union now, and I haven't studied it too much. And, um, I don't know what they're going to, um, gain by in a gay marriage. I understand that there are some technicalities that gay couples can't get buried together or something like that unless they're married or something. I I'm not sure about all those technicalities, but those technicalities needed to be addressed. Probably. And I think that's probably what it's. But I haven't studied [00:05:00] too much to make too much comment on it. How's the proposal for gay, um retirement village going Well, I'm a bit involved because I went to a meeting of a new group called Over the Rainbow for people over 55 organised by outline or some members of outline. And, uh, I was sitting there one night and one day and they said all the lesbians were having, uh the gay ladies [00:05:30] were organising a village. And I said, Well, if the gay ladies can organise a village, why can't the gay guys and, um then, well, a lot of discussion went down the line and I said, Hang on a minute, that's what we want. That's what we want. Everyone sitting and I said, Well, just hang on a minute. Hang on it. You you don't know you should do a survey first, and I got involved in that survey. And so I open my mouth too much and probably, uh, and helped, um, do the survey. Whether [00:06:00] anything becomes of it, I don't know, but I'm at the back of the ship helping to steer it and not at the front. Um, so were a lot of people interested in us the concept. They they got about 60 replies about, um 40 I suppose, or 45 or something like that from an online survey and the validity of that, I don't know, because it was done through a survey company, and I passed out about or 15 or 20 [00:06:30] physical paper ones that people had to tick boxes and very similar to what? The online The online, uh, survey was And, um, whilst a lot of people filled them out, whether they want to become involved in the gay village or not, I don't know. Time will tell on that, but the the overwhelming response to that was amazing in that 100% I think on the online when it was [00:07:00] a 98% or something said that, yes, they they would probably go into a gay retirement village if they were going into AAA retirement village of such and that they would prefer that 100% would prefer that to the current options. And that was an amazing thing. And I think that that is the amazing thing. That so, having gone down that line where where, um, we're going to have a a public [00:07:30] meeting on the 12th of November, I think Yes. So would you want to live in one of those places Currently, um, I've got health problems. Um, but well, we're working. Hopefully, we'll get over that. Um, it it it it can be very debilitating at times, but I'm I'm managing quite well. I keep my own house. I've got my own gardens here, and, um, I can [00:08:00] still drive. Although a couple of days I was so bad that I wouldn't drive, but, um, and I can still turn my little caravan around and things like that. So right at the present moment No, I wouldn't. But the day might come when I might have to move. And, um, yes, I certainly would. Um, entertainer I looked at when or in the last six or 12 months I've looked at at retirement villages for the pure and simple reasons. If [00:08:30] the day come, I would want to know where I was going rather than just saying, Well, you're going into that rest home there or that rest home there. You know what I'm saying? Yes. What gay organisations are you involved in now? Well, at present moment, I'm I I'm only loosely involved in um Well, I probably would say that I I'm involved in friends of friends. That would be the main one. I am Friends of friends is for, um, [00:09:00] came in when I first come to Auckland. I had just come out and I. I didn't know. I didn't know anyone. Um, I was very cagey about being gay, and I went along to friends of friends and in those days it was about 35 or 40 men could go there, and it's, um [00:09:30] it's been going for about 20 odd years and I've been going II I met all all most of my friends that I know today at friends of Friends, and, um, I've seen many A guy come along that's totally lost doesn't know he might be interested in swimming or he might be interested in something else. He doesn't want to go to the bars or the nightclubs to meet up with people and just wants to sit down and have a talk and a cup of tea or a coffee and things. [00:10:00] And, um, for that reason, in the last few years I've been mainly instrumental in myself in keeping it going. Um, it's it's dropped off over the years the number of attending and we are trying to get it rejuvenated into a a younger group as well as an older group. Currently, we're, uh, getting on a bit in our sixties and seventies. Is it mainly older? Those original people who are still [00:10:30] in the group? Or do you get lots of new people these days? We don't get a lot of new people. And when we get a younger person to come along when I say young anyway and from in their twenties and thirties and forties, they take all thirties. They take one look at us and, uh, scamper off again. And and being an older person, I think interests are different to a younger person. And and that's the reason we've just recently shifted from Rainbow Youth. We. It was originally held [00:11:00] in the Pride Centre down at, Well, the People Centre down in Vineyard Street. And then it went to the Pride Centre and um KK Road. And then when the Pride Centre collapsed, uh, Rainbow Youth took it over, and we stayed on the same rooms until for the last couple of years, and we've gone down to outline in Ponsonby, and that's been a good shift because, um, outline can see the need. They think there is a need for a group such as that so that people can come along and talk about [00:11:30] whatever they want to talk about. It's not political. It's not affiliated to anything. A a any particular, um and and and it's it's It's a very loose knit group. You just roll along and have a cup of tea or coffee or whatever, and you can talk about anything you like. But in saying that, you usually find an ear that you can talk to and say, Look, um, I can remember a Russian guy come along [00:12:00] years ago and he wanted to raise his own Children. And having been a married man with Children, they he wanted to know about bringing up Children and what it was like. Um, and I think I was helpful to him. I Well, I definitely say he went to to Sydney and and found a surrogate mother or something. I I'm not sure, but I believe that he has a couple of Children of his own, and that's what he wanted. And you know, there's some people out there that are [00:12:30] not in favour of gay people bringing up Children. But I was a gay person and my Children were very well balanced. And for the love of me, I can't see anything wrong with it? So So you're able to help people like that? You are able to help the odd person that comes along and is lost and doesn't know where to go and meet people or yeah, so and in a very informal way, you can just get, whisper or talk [00:13:00] to someone on the side that you sort of get to know. And how do you get people along to do you do any advertising? Um, it's advertised in the express, uh, meeting places every Thursday night, and and, uh, I think you'll see it in the express. Um uh, other. No, we don't. We don't charge. There's no fees. There's no there's no nothing. Uh, um, some of us take along a biscuit or two a night, and and, um, that's about it. [00:13:30] I've I've also been involved in the walking group, the tramping group I. I can't walk with my problems at the present moment health problems. But I would very much like to get back into that. I don't know about the tramping. Um, I used to belong to um the Longing Club. Until it's it's, um, collapsed two or three years ago. I used to like the pot like dinners and social functions there. Um, er I [00:14:00] go to the Queer Club on Sunday night. Um, the fifth season, the gay gardening group. I very much like that. Um, I've never been heavily involved in them, but if they ever want a hand or anything like that, I'm always hanging around the fringes so as to speak. Um uh, I don't know what else I can really enable. Yeah, I'm always there to prepare to give my support to something [00:14:30] like that. Can you elaborate on the Aquarius Club? That's on the Sunday night that's in the bar. It's mainly called the Old Man's Bar. It's held down in currently down in, um, the portside bar. Just go in and have a cup of beers and a bit of a talk. And, um, yeah, make one or two friends and say, Oh, we're going next Friday night. We might go out to dinner or something like that. Well, yeah, there's always someone there, you know, And and, um, it's just a pleasant night out for an hour or two. [00:15:00] well, can you tell me then what? Um, some of the gay experiences you've had or the experiences you've had as a gay man in the last 20 odd years. Oh, my goodness. I bet you have some good stories. Yeah, but I don't know whether I want to tell you this that, um I am I When I first came out within a year [00:15:30] or two I I met a man which I settled down with for a year or 18 months. And that was a I think I rushed into it. II. I haven't been, um, involved in a gay partnership as such since he caused me so much trouble in the finish. I don't know that he's even in the country today. Um, I've had lots of experiences with lots of guys. Um, no physical experiences? Yes, [00:16:00] from all around the world. Um, I've travelled the world, um, extensively. Particularly, uh, when I was married, I used to work very, very hard, and, uh, I always saw that I always considered that you've got to have time out, so to speak and and have a holiday. Um, And when when I, um, as a gay man, [00:16:30] I. I worked very hard for the first a few years when I broke up and set myself back up again. Worked seven days a week for about 18 months. Non stop to the company I work for the bosses come in and said, You're gonna have a break and I went away. And after that, I had to break every six months or every nine months or a year. One or two breaks a year. Um, about seven or eight years ago, I retired. Um, that took a lot of thinking. [00:17:00] Uh, yeah. I wonder how you're gonna get on and that. But ever since then, I've, um, travelled extensively, uh, extensively to, um, mainly to the east. Although I went to Europe in England and Ireland and Scotland and Wales because my my son and daughter were there, I went over there two or three times and went through Europe. Um, I've done a lot of Eastern countries in the last [00:17:30] few years, very expensive, and it's a hell of a long way to go over to Europe. Um, I, I found the Eastern cultures in particular. The Thai cultures are very, um they respect people, they respect each other, particularly as you're getting older. They respect the older, although I don't think the show the same respect as what they did 10 or 15 years ago. The world's getting smaller and they're not as respectful. [00:18:00] But by and large, most Eastern cultures respect each other. I've particularly noticed that. And, um, I've been, um yeah, I've been to 40 42 I think countries in the world. So it's a lot. That's most That's most because I've never done a head count. Which ones did you enjoy? Most, Most mostly. I used Thailand because, um, when I first went there about 15 years ago, I met a group of gay guys who were [00:18:30] in their forties and thirties and forties and fifties. And, uh, one particular guy that introduced me lived in New Zealand, and he introduced me to these guys and they took me under their umbrellas as a friend. And, um, I have a a Thai friend here that taught me to speak very limited Thai and, um, hello, how are you and et cetera, And, um, with with them I learned a lot [00:19:00] more, and they were they were a great company. And I still have a, uh, have a great rapport with them when I go back So if if travelling by myself as a gay man travelling by myself, I could land in Thailand. And, um, I had this group of guys that I knew and and I was never by myself, so to speak. Um, a very good friend of mine two weeks ago was here staying with me. He's got a New Zealand partner now, and [00:19:30] they live in, And, uh, when I come back from, they got lost a lot of things in the Christchurch earthquake, and they came back and and, uh, shared my home with them they now live in. So that friendship has been marvellous and still is marvellous. And so Thailand would be my base to go to Malaysia or Singapore or Indonesia and Laos. [00:20:00] Cambodia, Vietnam. I've been through Vietnam three times. I've been to China two or three times. Hong Kong. Uh, yeah. Do you do a lot of sightseeing when you're away? Yes, I do. Um, except the last couple of years. I went to Thailand. Uh, I didn't go this last winter. I don't like the winters in New Zealand, so I usually get out. But the winter before, I I had a lovely apartment I used to hire and John, Tim and, um, my daughter come over with her daughter at the time and my ex [00:20:30] come and she we I got a studio apartment for her, and I shifted out of my big apartment into a studio apartment on the same building, and they were there for a month. Um, and I was there for three or four months. Loved it. I think I loved the quietness of, you know, and also Bruce and were over there at the time, too. So and that was, you know, I had friends there, and it was it was great. Although you're by yourself, you're surrounded by friends. But I also knew a lot of expat [00:21:00] kiwis. Um, and and I got to know a lot of, um, Europeans as well as the Thais in that area. So for that reason, I kept going back there, um, and I had a base I could, um, a base to go from. I went down. We went from there down the Mekong River through or Laos that they know in New Zealand, but and, uh, on a boat, [00:21:30] that was, uh, an experience. So I like doing those sorts of things. Um, been through Cambodia. That was my son was going to come through Cambodia with me, and that was, uh I went back to Thailand about six weeks after my son. After my son's funeral, I was due to go the day of his funeral in New Zealand, and [00:22:00] I talked to him in South Africa before he died the week before he died. And he said to me, uh, I said to him How about coming to Cambodia with me because he was a photojournalist and he said he'd love that. He says, I said, Well, I can wait for you in Thailand and you can join me. Well, of course, the day his funeral was due to fly out and, um, the travel agent I booked through rang me up, or I booked through extensively. He's gay. [00:22:30] Guy rang me up and said, Mike, I won't give you my condolences now, but he says, Don't worry about your trip. I've spoken to the airline that you can take it any time you like. Your booking is safe. Um, and about six weeks later, I was sitting here at the bench over there and tears running down my face and I thought, I've got to shake myself out of this depression. So I picked up the phone and said to Steve, Get me out [00:23:00] of here And my doctor has since said it was the best thing I ever did. And, um, I went back to John. Tim and I met a gay guy there who had come back from England, and he was all upset about the fact that his partner had been playing away around while he was away, and he was breaking into tears. And I thought, I don't need this. So I up and left for, um, Cambodia. Just on the spur of [00:23:30] the moment went down and the next day was gone, and that was the best thing I did. And funny enough, I you meet people on the trips and I met up with a Swedish lady, and, uh, her and me headed off together. We were great friends. She knew I was gay and she had broken up with her husband, and we kept meeting up, meeting up on the way through Cam, Cambodia, and, uh, we had a great lot of time together, great fun. And, uh um That's how I come to get go through Cambodia anchor [00:24:00] and yeah, II, I have, you know, I've walked the great wall I've been to in China. I've as I said, been down the Mekong. I've been through Vietnam up to Halong Bay, ballooning with another friend over the mountains Balloon hot air ballooning. That's about five years ago. Um uh, a good friend, Alvin, He's he's been, uh, we've been away three or four times together. [00:24:30] We were going to go to, um, um Machu Picchu in Peru and then across to Rio de Janeiro and do South America. Um, and but unfortunately, I've been struck with this affliction I've got and I can't fly, But hopefully I'll get better, because if I don't, I can't go. And that's it. But hey, made hay while the sun shines, so to speak. And of course, [00:25:00] in all these places you go to you meet up with the odd gay guy and yeah, met some good friends, Chinese and otherwise. And so would you say you've had a good life. Apart from the obvious tragedy in it, I think everyone has a tragedy or two, in their life. Um, yes, I have. I worked very, very hard. Um, I I've enjoyed myself. [00:25:30] I've played hard. I've not played that hard, but I've made sure that I have the holidays and and and haven't, um I think hard work pays off, and, well, you can see, um, I got a reasonable Yes, Um, and I worked hard to get that, but I've always ensured that I've taken my breaks. And, um and I think that, um that rubbed off on the Children [00:26:00] too, I think because they travelled extensively. Um, and they would come back and tell me about their trips and travels, and I think probably from their mother and father going overseas. Um, I can remember. Oh, the kids were pretty small. We went, uh, to a conference and Singapore. And then from there we went through, uh, Malaysia and over to the Philippines [00:26:30] and back to New Zealand. And in those days 30 years ago was a over 30 years ago. Was, uh, was quite a trip, you know, So we had lots of experiences. As a matter of fact, that painting on the wall is the floating market in, and that's painted by my good friend. Now um, when you went to, uh in the 19 seventies to, uh, Bangkok, the floating market was just like that. And funnily enough, when I got [00:27:00] it, I was going through a whole lot of old cards and I found a postcard I'd sent my daughter and it was at the floating market. And it's very, very similar to that. Yeah, everything you see around in this room is from somewhere. That's those. Those light light standards are made from shells from the Vietnam War. Um, there's the the bridge and over there in, um, Prague. And [00:27:30] yeah, that's from Vienna and roams over there. And you can just I can just pick up any There's some of the soldiers from the imitation soldiers from CN. And so that that imitation cut over there was brought in, um, in, um uh, Limerick. I named him, uh, to my European friends. His name is Rick. And to my Asian friends, he's lim. [00:28:00] Well, we'll we'll, um, wrap this up, Mike, if you any advice, I usually say to people, if you have any advice for younger people these days, younger gay people, it's a different world to what we used to be. Um I don't think that I would get married today because I'd be more educated. Um, And you you know, about these things I didn't know about those, um, being gay and et cetera. So, I, I mean, I don't know that, um I can give [00:28:30] a lot of advice, but to I've met a few younger people that are, um though they're dead scared of coming out. Um, and you don't have to go around waving a banner and saying, Hey, I'm gay. I mean, no one in Auckland who I worked with knew I was gay. Why did they They didn't need to know that I was perhaps Roman Catholic or presbyterian or or or whatever. You don't go around waving a banner or I'm a Buddhist or [00:29:00] something. You you You can live a natural life, I. I think I lived. Um, no one would have known. And I still don't think no one would know me as a gay person. Um, and there's no reason. Um, OK, if you're that way inclined and you want to get dressed up and transvestites and those sort of things, I can't understand that. But that's that's another world you. You said you you wouldn't get married again. But, you know, you don't think the, [00:29:30] um well, it's balanced by the fact of having Children. I. I don't regret ever getting married. Certainly not certainly not. And I and and, um I think I think, um, yeah, it's it's hard to turn back knowing what you know now and and relate it to those times years ago. Um, I don't know what else I can say, but but if a lot of people there's a lot of help out there for those that [00:30:00] that are worried about being gay, the younger people, um, they they can live a there. There's a whole life out there and a whole society, particularly here in Auckland, but not only that anywhere. And they can integrate into society so easily, uh, these days and still be gay and and my friends that have gone to where they work, they've openly said, Well, we're gay and and no one, no one prejudges [00:30:30] as much as what they used to this day and age. If they if they if someone has a problem with it, that's their problem. It's not your problem, and you don't have to take that on board.

IRN: 632
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089364
TITLE: Marilyn Waring - Rainbow Politicians
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Marilyn Waring
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Colin James; Colin Moyle; Crimes Amendment Bill (1974, Venn Young); Elizabeth Reid; George Gair; Human Rights Act (1993); International Women's Year (1975); Katherine O'Regan; Keith Holyoake; Lockwood Smith; Louisa Wall; Marilyn Waring; NZ Truth; National Party; Norman Kirk; Parliament buildings; Peter Tapsell; Phylesha Brown-Acton; Raglan; Robert Muldoon; Springbok rugby tour (1981); Venn Young; Waikato; Wellington; Wolfenden report; civil unions; coming out; demonstrations; dignity; family; feminism; gender identity; growing up; homophobia; human rights; intersex; law; lesbian; marriage equality; media; music; politics; rugby; social justice; transgender; women's liberation movement
DATE: 6 November 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: National Library of New Zealand, 70 Molesworth Street, Thorndon, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Marilyn Waring talks about her time as a Member of Parliament from 1975 - 1984. Marilyn talks about being outed by NZ Truth in 1976, the Colin Moyle affair in 1977 and her relationship with Robert Muldoon and what prompted the 1984 snap election.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I was, uh, born in in the Waikato, and I went to school there and in and finally, uh, for my last couple of years of high school to the Waikato diocese in school. I'd always wanted to be a a physical education instructor, was what we called them in those days. Uh, but I was advised in my [00:00:30] last year of school that I ought to have some other ideas. I came to Victoria University thinking that I would do a coot degree in law and languages and become a diplomat. Um, which anybody who knows me would think Hilarious. Um, because I don't have many diplomatic bones in my body. And, uh, so I started, um the [00:01:00] the the degree and just as a kind of 1/4 paper, I taught political science, and I just fell in love with it, and everything else was boring. They always had a very strong interest in politics. I can remember the New Zealand Herald at age six, the day of the nod, my black budget, for example, because I used to sit on the floor and pick out all the words I knew. And my parents and others tell me I always was asking questions [00:01:30] that were actually political questions, even if I didn't understand them to be that. So I began the the, uh, political science. By the second year, they were offering international politics as well as the New Zealand politics. So I was gradually being taken up by this, uh, focus dropped out of law, uh, dropped the languages, stayed with politics all the way through. But at that point, [00:02:00] I also picked up music, which was my real passion, my real love. And I worked out, of course, that if I could enrol in performance papers that it was very much cheaper than paying for private lessons. So after four years, I had an honours degree in in politics, and I went to London to study music with Margaret Field. Uh, and when I ran out of money, I came [00:02:30] back to New Zealand reenrolled in music. I was now going to finish an undergraduate music degree. Alan Robinson, who'd been, uh, I teacher of mine at Victoria University, called me and said that there was a part time position available in the research unit and what was in the parliamentary opposition. I was working 20 [00:03:00] hours a week helping to install the new direct toll dialling system in stout street with my little hard hat and my, uh, pliers in my, uh, soldering iron. Because I could do that almost at any hour from Monday to Saturday and they didn't care as long as you did your 20 hours and green met Green and Red Met red, you know, and I used to [00:03:30] just sort of sing the A in my head or whatever. It was nice, mindless occupation while the music was going on in my head. And, uh, Alan said he didn't really like his students doing that and that this position was available and he wanted me to go and apply for it. So I did. And I got the position and I was appointed, uh, to do research on housing, fishing and women. [00:04:00] So I was working, um, in parliament buildings during a period when the National Party had had no women members of Parliament at all. From 1972 to 75 I was active in the women's electoral lobby. 1975 was the first international women's year. Uh, so there was a a a great energy around [00:04:30] feminist politics at that particular time, and both George Gear and Sir Keith Holyoak encouraged me to put my name in for the seat of Raglan. It was going to be the last safe seat where the candidate was chosen for the 1975 election. National had other women candidates, but not in seats that they thought they had a chance of winning. Doug Carter was retiring. [00:05:00] It was my old hometown. My dad, my granddad, my great granddad had all come from that particular part of the country. So I stuck my name in and really didn't think I had a chance. Um, but of course, things turned out very differently. Had you had any other involvement with the National Party Prior to [00:05:30] this one day when I was every day when I was a student, I used to go up. First thing I did was go into the Rank and Brown library and read the newspaper, and one morning I went in there, and the lead story was about Kirk's reaction to Ben Young's signal that he was going to introduce a homosexual law amendment bill, and Kirk said that he would totally [00:06:00] oppose it, that it was unnatural and abnormal. I didn't read any of the rest of the paper. I stood up, I walked down to the centre of town and I joined the national party. So that was my That's what provoked me. The Kirk response to Vin's private members. Bill. Uh, so no, that was you know, that was an isolated incident that just set out there. I remember I used all my weekend cleaning money [00:06:30] to pay. Uh, but I was just so angry and, you know, it was a a kind of a something to do to get rid of the anger. Can you explain to me where that anger came from? First of all, um, there was there was still terrible prejudice and discrimination and stigma. Um, I certainly wasn't someone who walked around, you know, [00:07:00] waving a flag, saying I was gay. I loved a gay life, but I It was, you know, there was still so much intolerance. But at least for women, we weren't illegal, you know? And I had very large numbers of male friends who feared for their jobs, who feared being attacked in the evening, who feared all kinds of things. And it just seemed to me that Kirk was giving was feeding the fire, you know, with his statements. [00:07:30] And I was very contemptuous of them. I think any of us who were alive and that at that time know what that period was like. So what was your journey with, uh, homosexuality prior to that point? Oh, well, nothing really. Just sort of, um, closeted one partner. When did you realise that you were attracted to the same sex? Oh, well, I, I guess I realised it. Because what [00:08:00] what boys were for was to play tennis with and rugby. And, you know, cricket. They were great because, you know, a lot of girls didn't kind of get out there and do that kind of stuff. So boys were my playmates. I had no interest in them, really. Other than that, I don't think I I had any came to any kind of great self consciousness. Probably until I came to university. [00:08:30] Um, I knew I was conscious then that I was attracted to women, not to men. Yeah, and there were I mean, there were people you could actually see them there. I mean, in retrospect, when I think about growing up in. Of course, we were all there. You know, Um uh, but it wasn't something you talked about. And I think because in the [00:09:00] especially the early seventies, with the wonderful energy of the women's movement at that time, finally there was music, lyrics, poetry, books, fiction and particularly at university. You know, you could find it. And I pretty much hadn't been aware that even that was out there, so that was great, you know? You know, I had some words. [00:09:30] Did you ever find that it was, uh, a dilemma within yourself? Um, this the same sex attraction? Well, no, it's just obvious it wasn't difficult. You know, I thought that the rest of the world found it difficult, but I didn't find it difficult. That seemed to me to be the rest of the world's problem. Except, you know, of course, once we were in public spaces, it wasn't. It was our problem. And, um, and the Kirk reaction would just typified it. And I guess you know, they weren't at the time. I was, [00:10:00] um uh, I belong to the congregation of Saint Peter's and Willis Street. We had a very university congregation. Um, it was a highly active church. Godfrey Wilson. Bob Scott was the, uh, was also there. Um, so you know, all of a sudden there was, you know, he was a man of the cloth who was gay. You know, obviously, um, they, uh, people like Jack [00:10:30] Shell and others, um, used to attend the the the, uh, the the first group of people in New Zealand who picked up the WOLFENDEN. Report and began pressure for change in the criminal law who weren't gay, actually, um, they attended that church. There were always pamphlets at the back of the church about homosexual law reform, just like they were [00:11:00] about apartheid in South Africa. And, you know, a range of other really important issues. So there was some, you know, there was a space I went to Where, uh, there was support. Did you ever discuss the same sex attraction with your family with your parents? No. No, not at all. I know that when I was outed, that gave many other people the opportunity to [00:11:30] discuss it with their family, but no. Can you describe for me, um, your involvement with the women's movement and and how that came about Well, I think I was sort of middle of the road. Really, Uh, but I was There was a women's liberation group at Victoria University. Um, they [00:12:00] were, you know, like, for me, they were kind of awesome and frightening. Um, so I didn't really feel like I had the analysis and the, um, the strategy to join that group. But I knew they were there, and salient would cover, you know, material. Um, I tended to more to a more mainstream engagement in the women's electoral lobby, which was pretty vibrant in Wellington. And, uh, had [00:12:30] people like Judith ain Margaret Shields, Maria Robinson. Uh, Sonia Davies. Um, but it was a real cross section. Uh, and also, of course, there had just been the Select Committee on Women's Rights, which was the first parliamentary overview of the vast range of discrimination against women. And so that select committee report, [00:13:00] if you were studying political science, of course, immediately became a A very important, uh, citation and reference point. I was also in my honours year, uh, taught papers by Chris Wainwright and Stephen Levine, who very much encouraged the woman to read Charlotte Perkins Gilman work yellow wallpaper in particular. I remember, um, who [00:13:30] who were introducing us? These guys were introducing us to the work of people like, uh, Kathleen Berry. Um, Robin Morgan. Um I think now we may have published her first work, then, uh, but about once a month at the university bookstore, a new foreign feminist book came in, and I would spend many hours in there reading [00:14:00] it because I could never afford them. And the library didn't necessarily get them immediately. And if it did, there was a waiting list. Uh, but so that kind of emergence was also exciting. And yeah, that was that was what I did. Um, I I had at the streets for demonstrating, but that was nearly always anti apartheid. So things like shops, full day massacre and, [00:14:30] um yeah, that sort of thing. Can you paint a picture for me of what the National Party was like when you joined in the early seventies? Because in 2012, you know, there's the perception that national is a lot more kind of right leaning conservative where labour is very left leaning liberal. Well, we wish it's not, but anyway, yes, the greens may be labour isn't Yes. I mean, what was what [00:15:00] drew you to national? A. Well, the opposition to Kirk was like, first of all. And secondly, I never thought I never really took it seriously because I couldn't win this selection. You know, putting my name in was was a feminist act. The women's electoral lobby in Wellington had written to the, uh, directors of it would have been National Labour social credit parties at the time, [00:15:30] saying that they had a dismal record. In fact, they'd only been 13 women members of Parliament ever, Um, in 1974. And why weren't they having, you know, actively engaging to see that there were more women in parliament. There had been four only all in the Labour Party from 1972 to 75 and each of the directors replied with exactly the same answer. Oh, we'd [00:16:00] love to have more women, but they don't offer themselves for selection. And so my act in offering myself was a form of, um, political reaction, you know, to those letters, and it was going to be impossible that the third safest seat in the country would pick a 22 year old woman. So I thought, Oh, I'll go through it, you know? And so I'll be part of the [00:16:30] women who do offer themselves to demonstrate what we do, you know? And still nobody gets chosen, but mine be fried. Did you have any comprehension of actually what standing for Parliament meant? Well, because I was working in Parliament buildings. I had a little. Also, there was something inside me. I was going to go through this, but I wasn't gonna let anybody make a fool of me. So [00:17:00] I can remember In the evenings, going into the Parliamentary library and from cover to cover, I read the last three months of the Huntley Press, the Courier and the Cambridge Independent and the Waikato Times. And whatever happened, I wasn't, you know, going to be found short in respect of what the issues were in that new and that Raglan [00:17:30] constituency. And as it happened, that served me very well doing that. I wasn't doing it to be the best competitor. I was doing it so that I wouldn't look a fool it so yes, I knew about parliament and the being a research officer in Parliament certainly [00:18:00] carried some mana even at the age of 22 with the voting delegates in the electorate, Was there a point where it switched for you? And you thought, actually, I can win this. I never, ever thought I can win this. The very the the preselection part. Um, there were 11 candidates. [00:18:30] Uh, and it was there was a a long interview with, um So officials from the constituency officials from the Waikato Division of the National Party, officials from the Dominion Council of the Party. So that was a major Q and a all men. Uh, that's when reading those newspapers came to the fore because I was told later that, uh, every [00:19:00] other candidate had been asked about problems in a for example, and every one of them had said there weren't any, but there was a major need for a childcare centre that had been really going on and on in the newspaper. So I had that as well as some other you know, things to talk about there. And then I just went straight to the Hamilton airport to come back to my job in Wellington because I thought, Oh, well, that was interesting, you know, [00:19:30] And, uh I There was a phone call for me at the airport. You know where you got to remember? This is way before mobile phones and things. So the broadcast comes over. Uh, and it was the chairman of the meeting saying you're in the final five. I just wanted to let you know you may not want to get on the plane back to Wellington. You might want to start meeting the voting delegates now, because that's what the others will be doing. I got on the plane back to Wellington because I didn't have a clue [00:20:00] what happened next, and I thought it would be the best place to find out. So, uh, yes. So I came back and, um, uh, you know, found out how the next part of the party system worked. And then, armed with a great, vast pile of briefing notes that were being given to MP S by my research unit, I went back up to begin to visit the voting delegates and to go [00:20:30] to the final selection evening. Um, I still didn't believe I had a chance. The very first meeting that I did with delegates, I went to visit a family in Huntley and three of them in the family had a vote. And we got on very well until we started to discuss sporting contacts with South Africa. And I just said I was totally [00:21:00] opposed to them and I protested about them and it was, you know, a very amicable discussion. But I lived there laughing away to myself, thinking I'm just hopeless at this, you know how funny. And yet on the evening that I won, they came up to me afterwards and said, you might not believe this, but we've voted for you on every round. We thought that if you didn't lie to us, then you were the person we wanted to go to Wellington. So obviously, [00:21:30] you know, there were some things I was doing that were OK. I mean, I just I was very relaxed through the whole of that period because I didn't have a show as far as I was concerned. So I just said what I thought when the party was quizzing you were they also quizzing you about your kind of personal life and your like, private relationships? No, not at all. Um, they There were some delegates [00:22:00] who would come and say to me, um, you know, Well, what will you do if you get married and have a family? And I just smiled at them and said, Oh, I'll answer that when you go and ask the other four gentlemen here what they're going to do about their families, you know? That would be it. That was all you had to do. And you mentioned earlier about being in the closet or being closeted around this time. What did that actually mean? What did that mean for you? Well, it just meant I wasn't wearing a label that said I am a lesbian. Put it on the [00:22:30] front page. So it didn't make any difference to how I lived right? Or where I went with my partner. It just meant I well, in in the seventies, you just you took care. Was there ever a push in the early seventies for, um, gay and lesbian people to come out? Or is that a kind of a later thing? Well, [00:23:00] there, I mean, there was just a steady movement all the way. I mean, Broadsheet magazine was also operating at that time, and, of course, they'd had the retreat and there'd been a huge split between the So-called women's liberationist and the lesbian feminist and I. I didn't want to, you know, I didn't want to be stuck in the middle of fighting women either, Truly. I mean it. It seemed to me that we had so much to overcome that I just wanted to save my energy for the long [00:23:30] march and not actually be trying to determine who was Marxist and who was trot and who was gay and who was socialist and who was liberal with a small L. And, you know, God, I just had no time for any of that. How was the campaign for you? Oh, it was hilarious. It was It was so much fun. Um, they sort of played pass the parcel. They recognised that they had to teach me a lot that I didn't know, but I was really happy. I've always [00:24:00] been a great student. Um, and so literally I would just get passed from branch to branch to branch around the constituency. Um, there were other wonderful things all my life because I'd lived there. They'd always been, you know, different buildings or manufacturing plants or other things I've always thought I'd love to see what goes on in there. And of course, now I could, So I'd ring up and say, Could I visit? [00:24:30] You know, and so off I'd go. It's like, Wow, isn't that amazing? You know, So it was sort of this little wish list of stuff I wanted to do and see the we we had the whole, um, electorate make lists of of any event where there were likely to be more than 50 people. Well, loads of those were at schools, you know, they were calf club days or, um, flower show days or other stuff. [00:25:00] And, uh, you know, I'd just be brought along by members of the party to and just wandered around like that. So yeah, that was really I found it very comfortable. And the public meetings were pretty easy, too, actually, what were the main issues that were being discussed in my constituency? I guess there were really two that dominated. One was around energy. [00:25:30] Huntley coal mining the building of the Huntley dual fired power station. Um, what energy policy was going to look like in the future? Um, whether or not Huntley was going to be looked after. Um, it was the first place where a major generating plant was being built, where there was already a population in a community. So many of the other hydro stations, of course, had started from nothing and built the town. [00:26:00] Um, I was, um so that was major for me. And agriculture was significant. Housing is always significant. Education is always significant. Immigration is always very important for the people who need that. Their that family person, you know, it mightn't concern a wide raft of the the electorate. But, uh, for [00:26:30] those for whom that's an issue, it's the most important issue. Uh, also, I think, um uh, there was for me, uh, Labour Head, the Roger Douglas superannuation scheme, which completely omitted women, not in the paid workforce. And to me, that was an outrage. And the alternate proposal of national superannuation from [00:27:00] national was one that I could so easily readily support. And that was significant. Really significant. To be able to think that, you know, all your elderly could have lives of dignity to me was very important. Uh, the proposal that was in the policy for a Human Rights Commission act that was drafted by a gay man called Robin Stewart, who also worked in the opposition research unit with me. And as we drafted [00:27:30] it, we didn't put sexual preference or sexual orientation in there. But we knew one day this would deliver it to us. If we could just get it in with those grounds one day, it would work for us. And so it was a conscious decision not to put it in at the start. We wouldn't win, and it wouldn't have been accepted and adopted by the party as policy, so we just weren't going to push in that direction. [00:28:00] In fact, it was probably good that we didn't even raise a flag to have some of them think that in time Catherine O'Regan might amend it the way she did, you know. So during that campaign, were you ever anxious that somebody would start pointing the finger and say, Oh, you know, your private life? Lesbianism? No, not really. No, it wasn't at that point. I, I it seemed [00:28:30] very unlikely. Uh um, The relationship I'd had was pretty strained by the fact that this thing had happened to me, you know, becoming the candidate um and no I at at my age, 22. Um, you know, it wasn't as if I was sort of 29 or 30. You know, there was everybody still thought there was plenty of time [00:29:00] for me to find the right guy. Can you describe for me what election night was like? Oh, it was pretty mad, Really. We went to the, um, high court building in Hamilton, which was where all the returns came in. So I was there with my Peter Hamilton, who was my, um, electorate Chairman Catherine O'Regan, Uh, a couple of other members of my [00:29:30] campaign committee, my mom and dad. And as the results came in for Raglan, it was obvious that it was a huge victory. Really huge. Um, and also that there was a major swing across the country. I think we went from the courthouse to the Waikato Division National Party function, uh, and then [00:30:00] eventually home to Huntley, where there were a whole lot of people at my parents' home as well. Yeah, so I think really, from the moment I was selected the candidate, it was going to be pretty difficult to lose that seat. What do you think made people vote so overwhelmingly for you, Uh, were [00:30:30] women, you know, because it was international women's year. Even women who weren't feminists, you know, women were upset that they weren't represented. It was really important. I've always found that. And it and it happened then women who had never taken any interest in politics and who hadn't even enrolled, went and enrolled so they could vote for Marilyn. Um, they are, uh, [00:31:00] always when we looked at the figures from Raglan and then in and again, um, you find a huge, huge swing from labour to national. So there were vast numbers of labour women holding their noses and voting for Marilyn as it were so that social credit actually became the second dominant party. Yeah, So there was just a very, very large women's [00:31:30] vote for me all the way through. Um, there was a traditional grounded farming boat for national. Um, I think in that period, because there were a lot of other issues like the reproductive freedom issues, um, the Springbok tour issue, um, that people also sometimes moved away from party and voted for the individual, you know, depending [00:32:00] on which side they were taking in those particular issues, but it all added up to, um, an easy win each time. How did you feel? I don't I can't. You know, it's very hard to answer things like that because this isn't the person who had those feelings and and mostly I don't remember them. Um, I know in 1981 [00:32:30] when we were re-elected with a majority just of one, I had a very different feeling. Um, it was a very I. I all of a sudden life was very serious for me. I mean, it had been plenty serious anyway, but it was much more serious right at that point. Um, And Colin James, I don't know if you'll remember this on the Sunday you know, he [00:33:00] could have, you know, he was the senior political editor for the National Business Review. He could or should probably have been in many other more important places, and he drove to Cambridge, and I can remember him sitting on my back veranda in saying, I feel fairly certain what the outcome of this government is going to be, but I don't know what issue you'll do it on. It's like it was [00:33:30] several jumps ahead of me a little bit. I mean, I was taking it seriously, but not quite with the implication that he was providing. You know, um, you even with a majority of one Unless you lost on a conscience vote or a matter of national security, you didn't have to go to the polls. I mean, I was in a situation where I could stop really bad things from happening as far as I was concerned, you know? But that didn't mean the government would fall, but he'd gone further. [00:34:00] So yeah, I haven't forgotten that. Comment. Your maiden speech in parliament. Uh, I. I saw a quote that that that that you called your colleagues, um, out of touch backward and conservative. Do you Do you recall that? Yeah, well, I said some. I was always careful. I didn't say all of them were, um uh and I especially from 75 to 78. Whenever [00:34:30] I was talking about white middle class males. It was obvious I was talking about all of them in the house social credit, labour national. They were all the same, you know, Really, they were They were, you know, sitting here going through my papers in the Turnbull. And I'm just reading some of the the way in which people wrote, you know, Marilyn would like to come and award the certificates to the Maori girls [00:35:00] who are graduating from, you know, the Waikato Polytechnic. Oh, thank you very much. Girls. Um, I've just been through one from Alan Hyatt with where he's written me a letter. I'm going to talk to the fire service or something. And he's talking about, uh you might like to introduce the notion that they could extend membership to their wives and other women. This was the environment that I was in. It was Victorian. [00:35:30] OK, so my intolerance was generally of the lot of them. And I have that as a maiden speech as well. I was Well, uh, well, I think you'll find that it was, you know, it's kind of it was packaged nicely, so they couldn't be too offended or or it was always packaged. So you only took offence if you thought you were one of the ones I was referring to. So the better decision on behalf of men would [00:36:00] be to think, Oh, she doesn't mean me at that time in the Parliament. How many women were there? Uh, 75 to 78 Sullivan, Mary Bachelor Colleen Dew, who did pull through and win Littleton for National and myself 78 to 81 um, fitted to the Sullivan. Mm. Ann Hercus [00:36:30] must be Margaret Shields and I and then 81 to 84. You add Helen Clark and Ruth Richardson. So we got to six. Yeah. So 78 to 81 was very grim for me. The only woman in the national caucus. What was that like? Well, I wasn't just the only woman you know. I was younger than heaps of them by miles. Um, it was [00:37:00] gruelling. It was really gruelling. Uh, you know, that I had No, um I had no desire to go further in politics. You know, I had no desire to be a Cabinet minister, though I know a number of my colleagues urged Muldoon to do that because I thought in terms of cabinet collective responsibility, I'd be having to resign just about every Monday. Um, because [00:37:30] I didn't want to be part, you know, at least in caucus, you were told what Cabinet had decided and then you could battle it. But even if you had battled it in cabinet, you then had to be quiet, you know, and and go along. And I think that suffocation would have just driven me crazy. Um, and so my battle was not about Marilyn wearing my battle was about my constituents and about women. Um, but, you [00:38:00] know, I was in a in an institution where the majority of men were two generations older just about, and they just had no idea about the real world. Dear George Gere has said to me in more recent years, you had so much to teach us, and we wouldn't listen. We were so far behind. So, yeah, I've called it daily battery. [00:38:30] Mm. What do you think was hard of being young being a woman, being a feminist, being a lesbian? What were the? Well, you know, just being me was hard. I mean, that's who I was, you know? Yeah. I mean, even being a woman was offensive enough to some of them. Can you recall any politicians that were either, um, outwardly [00:39:00] gay or that it was known around parliament were gay at the time? Um, there were suspicions, but never No, nobody else was out. Um, but it was, you know, male activity was still illegal. Why would you? Even if I'd known, I wouldn't have done that to people. You know, there were the house staff, [00:39:30] the Parliament house staff. We were full of gay people, you know, There were gay people all over Bellamy. There were gay people in the clerk's office. There were gay people in the library. You couldn't. You know, there were gay people in the press gallery there. They were all over the place, you know, But But the men were scared to. To be out or outed in that context would have been terrifying. I think for some of them, [00:40:00] some of them were obviously gay, but weren't ever going to say So. What about politicians? Were there any politicians that you knew of? Well, there may have been, but, um, I wouldn't even if I knew I wouldn't. You know, people people can choose for themselves. I'm never I've never been in the business of outing. That happened to you though, didn't it? In 76. Can you tell me about that? Um, [00:40:30] yeah, Well, the New Zealand Truth ran the story for six weeks in a row about, um, my, uh, being a lesbian. I my I believe I haven't read the book, but I've read and heard commentary about the recent book on truth saying that that was the beginning of the end. They made a really poor choice. They had no idea how the public [00:41:00] would react. Um, they really thought they were on to a a winner. But in fact, they got buried in an avalanche of mail That that told them that they were disgusting and filthy and, you know, sort of lay off. So they actually kept running the cover story by running the mail for a long, you know? So, yeah, about six weeks. Yeah. Did you know it was going to happen before they went to press? How, uh, you can read the autobiography [00:41:30] for that? How far in advance did you know? Some days. And how did you feel? Well, probably the immediate reaction, but I probably just Oh, shit. Really? I mean, yeah, but it was good. I had some great mates being in Parliament. Had you had that crossed your mind [00:42:00] that somebody might try and out you Uh, yeah, I suppose it had, Um, but I never I never saw that outing coming from within Parliament. I. I felt very safe, strangely enough in in that context, in the house. Um, I probably wouldn't have if I had still being [00:42:30] in the closet when Muldoon gunned for mole. That made it a very unsafe place. I think it's probably been more unsafe since then. What impact did having the those headlines for six weeks? What impact did that have on you? I wasn't very worried about me. Right. Um, I was more. I can can [00:43:00] remember being very conscious that I might just have blown it for young women for a long time, like so, feeling more responsible about that and more concerned about my constituency. But, you know, only a couple of weeks ago, I listened to Catherine O'Regan talking about being, uh, with me through all that period and being, um, effectively, my personal assistant [00:43:30] in the constituency. And somebody asked her how was it in the electorate? Um, when the truth story ran and Catherine's response, which is probably more reasonable than mine, you know, um, was that actually, you're in an agricultural, uh, constituency. Anybody with their eyes open on a farm knows that all animals aren't heterosexual. [00:44:00] Um, that it that it gave many people in the constituency the opportunity to, um, say something like, Oh, well, you know, my brother or my daughter, Or you know, that that within close knit rural communities frequently, you know, there were the two women who were workers on farms or there was the school [00:44:30] teachers who, you know, always went as couples to all the local community gatherings. Nobody had to talk about it. People knew. Um, so it was a lot of that. And Catherine said, um, it was that that the Springbok tour was much tougher. She said, You can't come between farmers and their rugby. So that was her, um, response. Yeah. Do you think that outing [00:45:00] was politically driven or was it just a tabloid? No, I know what it was. And that's in the autobiography, too. So I'm not going to tell you that, either. Yeah. What about around parliament? Did that change how people reacted to you or interacted with you? No. Um, there was tremendous support. Um, huge support across right across the board, [00:45:30] The end. Um No, it didn't. It and, uh, only one invitation was cancelled to address the, uh, women's section of the National Party was the only only thing that got cancelled. And I thought it might have all kinds of effects, but I've just been going through the 1976 invitations [00:46:00] and no, you know, there are girls schools wanting me as the guest speaker at the end of the year and all kinds of things. So it obviously just didn't bother a whole lot of people or, you know, they just it wasn't important in terms of how I was viewed. You know, the the main thing was, did I do a good job? Did other people in Parliament um perhaps start coming out to you? No, not parliamentarians. I mean staff, [00:46:30] Yes, but not parliamentarians. Mhm. It's interesting you say about the reaction when, just a couple of years later, you've got Colin Moyle and that whole affair with with with Robert Muldoon. Can you tell me about that? And how that affected you? Or if if it affected you at all? Well, it's 77. Yeah. So it's a year and a bit later, I think, um, it didn't really affect me except that I was outraged. [00:47:00] But AAA significant number of my national party colleagues were outraged. Muldoon perceived more as a leadership threat. Um, and also the manner in which he learned this was disgusting. Um, so, um, I my tolerance of him, um, yeah, just that [00:47:30] moved him to another level. Really? Um, he he personally attacked a lot of people, you know, think of people like Abraham or I mean, just all over the place. Sonny Ram. He just would go individuals. And he attacked personally, You know, he didn't attack the politics or things like that. Um, but no, that was That was nasty. That was awful. And it It was an indication of the [00:48:00] kind of odour that the Muldoon administration would gather to itself as the years went on. Yeah. Did it have any personal effect on you? No. No. I wrote my hand, wrote Muldoon a memo saying that I thought it was disgusting, um, and disgraceful. And, uh, that if anybody asked me publicly, I would say that. And did [00:48:30] anybody else know? But anyway, you know, was homosexuality ever used against you? As as a kind of a political weapon. Oh, yeah. Um, very soon after that outing, um, Peter Taps was addressing the Waikato division of the Labour Party, and he got front page headlines [00:49:00] by saying that the government's policy on women was being run by bar and lesbian when the Raglan electorate disappeared and altogether and I had to begin again. And when the electorate, uh, and was challenged by, um four. I think other men, um, their their main quote whenever they wrote [00:49:30] those little paragraph about yourself, I have a normal family. So normal became, you know, picking up the old Kirk word. So there was a lot about, you know, you could have a representative who had a normal family life. Um, I always thought that was hysterical because within the year, two of them were divorced and one of them was bankrupt. So you know so much for them. Um, anyway, [00:50:00] and and you also have to ask yourself if anybody thinks that, you know, being a partner of a parliamentarian is a normal family life. No, of course it doesn't, But, um, yeah, there was that there were always sometimes there were real sneaky. There were always little sneaky comments uh um, at sometimes at public meetings, Um, that, but I I had I'd got my sort of my armilla [00:50:30] shield on by then, you know, they didn't kind of touch me. It was good. It was all right. I, um I could, you know, move through those or spin them around and laugh back or something. Yeah, but, um, in parliament? No, that it was a very, very interesting. On the night the government fell in 1984 after Muldoon, it had quite a lot of brandy. He called me a perverted little liar. [00:51:00] So obviously it was always there after those articles and truth. How did you I guess, present yourself in terms of I mean, did you kind of kind of come out and present yourself as yes, I am a lesbian? Or did you just say, Well, um, it's none of your business, so yeah, pretty much. Look, you know, anybody who who sees me in public, anybody who knows [00:51:30] me, everybody knows, You know, I don't make a secret of it, but I'm not here to fuel truths and come, um, I just you know, as I've always said, I'll just go on, get on with my life. Um, but, uh, it made a huge difference for the gay community, both in terms of the the kind of examples I gave you earlier where you know, so many people over so many years have come up and said, You've got no idea, you know, we were sitting at the table [00:52:00] and Mum was saying, It's outrageous. How dare they and Dad were saying It's nobody's business And I finally had the opportunity to say, Well, I'm glad you think that because I am, you know, huge numbers of, um, people. Uh, the other thing that happened was that especially around immigration matters, when a New Zealander had a lover who wasn't a New Zealander and when they wanted to live together in New Zealand. Finally, there was [00:52:30] somebody that they could come to in Parliament who could help, you know, or go as far as you possibly could go on those things. And, um, yeah, I think I became a you know, someone safe for gay people to talk to whatever it was about, Really. If it was some, um, tension with some government department that may or may not relate to [00:53:00] their being gay. Another thing that happened was that over the years for me, I always said lots of information fell off the back of a truck. Well, there were always gay people right through the bureaucracy. And if I wanted something, I always got it. Even if it wasn't through the Orthodox ways you mentioned just kind of like, you know, putting your head down and just getting on with [00:53:30] it. Where does that strength come from? Well, some people would say it's just a Protestant work ethic. Really. I still have problems with it at the age of 60. Stopping working is a real major for me. So, for example, I no longer have any Internet connection in my home because I had to stop myself working all the time. Um and, you know, I still have to work on it. But I also knew I think I felt the the truth [00:54:00] outing came. Then the the constituency disappeared. And then there was the, uh, competition for and I know I know that part of it was right inside me was you bastards. When I leave this place, I'll go on my own terms, not on your terms. Now that means these constituents have to see the very best MP [00:54:30] they can possibly see. And so that was it. But, you know, go back to those stories I was telling you about the campaign. I actually loved all of that stuff, you know, um, you know, the the forest parks having a mountain climb on Sunday. Well, you know, this is work. I can go and climb the mountain, call it work, agricultural field days. You know, they wander around there for a day or two. It was I loved [00:55:00] it. I loved it. You know, there were heaps and heaps of things going to to, um, every month, You know, these long, long hours of constituency meetings, I can remember Neil Finn coming to me in the heart delegation about Springbok tours. You know, just the the privilege of learning that comes with the access, Uh, and [00:55:30] the privilege of people's trust in you, you know, people at very vulnerable points in their lives. So I didn't dislike that work. I love that work. What kind of impact did being in Parliament have on your private life? Um, I don't know that It's so much me. I think that [00:56:00] I'm I'm tremendously admiring of people who maintain really strong, healthy, good partner relationships in Parliament. I think it's a hell of a task really, really tough. Um, and because of my dedication to my work, I'm not sure that I was ever a great partner. If, you know, I I know the work came first, [00:56:30] and, um, you know, I don't think any of us liked it very much, but it did. And I don't feel like I. I, um you never knew, you know, the phone call, you'd planned to do something, and the phone call would come because they couldn't find anybody else, you know? And somebody would need an urgent passport because someone was dying somewhere or something. [00:57:00] They could always find me, you know, um, it's II. I don't think of those years as being years where I had a healthy had healthy relationships. I was also, um you know, when you are being battered, So as well as telling the constituency stories, there is a kind of a constant battery, a constant fatigue. [00:57:30] I know I. I just I just don't think I was great a great partner during that period. And, um, I I do realise, in retrospect, I never had a great deal of self confidence around it. I mean, is this person taking any notice of you because you're an MP or because they think you're lovely, you know? And there were always [00:58:00] plenty of people who only wanted to know you because you were an MP. So it was confusing as well. How did you feel about truth after after 1976? Um, well, I'd never read it in the first place, you know. So you you know, one of the things I tried to do in Parliament there were a number of things around emotions. One was to recognise anger as a real energy and stop [00:58:30] it before it ate me up and turn it around and transform it into something to do with it, you know, to to use the energy of it, to capture it, but not to let it blacken me, or or also to to. There was so much to have to do to avoid the dark stuff. You know, I didn't need that in my life. I was I There were enough bad things happening to women and enough bad [00:59:00] things happening to my constituents. You know, I didn't need to go looking for it anywhere. Um, so it was of no moment to me. Really? I did. Of course. I was delighted when they went out of business. You mentioned the third election in 81 where things changed for you. What? In what way? A number of things happened between 1978 and 1981 that were very important. [00:59:30] One was a unit seminar that I went to in Oslo just before the United Nations Women's half decade conference in Copenhagen. And Germaine Greer was invited and couldn't go. And Elizabeth Reed nominated me in her place and I went, and that was extraordinary. I met [01:00:00] El Alwi Maria de these extraordinary women from around the world. Feminist women, strong women, women who'd been in exile, women who'd been prime minister following a military junta. You know, first all these other firsts and they were feminists and they were lonely, you know. But they were older than me. And that was huge. And then to go to Copenhagen [01:00:30] and to lead the most lead the most radical feminist amendment to the whole platform, which is what I did with um, my colleagues in the New Zealand A delegation and that gave I. I used that energy for years. I just used it for years. It was so important then, after [01:01:00] that, Elizabeth Reed, who's been an extraordinary, um, mentor in my life, nominated me for the um Kennedy School of Government Fellowship at Harvard. And I took that for the first couple of months in 1981 and that was extraordinary as well. The other fellows were General Joseph Garba from Nigeria, who then headed the UN Apartheid Committee. Suzanne King. I remember who'd been head of consumer [01:01:30] Affairs. Jean Eisenberg, who'd been Carter's secretary to Camp John Colver. Who'd been the the Democrat senator who won Ohio. Uh, these amazing people that I was with and in this extraordinary environment where I had access to wonderful academics but also to redcliffe, I met many more feminists who were writing International [01:02:00] and, uh, US feminists, and so again got energised. But I came home from that to the Springbok tour and I. I think New Zealand was disgraceful, and that and Muldoon was unforgivable for me. That was I was kind of over and out for this man now. Uh, and I [01:02:30] also, um, got so fatigued and so ill during that campaign. I was hospitalised. Um And so when I woke up and there was a majority of one and of course, I'd gone into the 81 election without being challenged. So the when I go it will be on my own terms was now open. I hated it. I [01:03:00] hated being in there, but I couldn't go because then they would say, Women can't stand it. Young women can't stand it. Gay young women can't stand it. Feminist women can't stand it. I had to I did this thing. I had to exceed the average length of term that MP S had. I even knew what that was. And I knew once I got past seven at that time, I'd exceeded the average, you see. So then it would be all right. By the time I was 32 it was nearly a third of my life [01:03:30] in there in this dreadful place, you know? So, yeah, I couldn't wait to go. I knew the morning I woke up after the election. It would be my last term, but I never told a soul. But Colin knew too, from his instincts. What were the biggest things that you think you achieved while in Parliament? Now, Michael Minogue And I used to say that what [01:04:00] we achieved well, he achieved the freedom of information. He has a major, major achievement. He he was fantastic. So special and remarkable. That battle just beautiful. Um, but we used to say that our job description was turn 3 60 degrees every morning, throw yourself bodily in front of the next juggernaut and try to stop even worse [01:04:30] things from happening. Yeah, that was our job description. Yes. So I can go back to Catherine O'Regan. Um, she says that my achievements aren't, you know, bills or, um, legacies of opening particular things. Um, [01:05:00] but they were about leadership, for women. Hm. So that'd be pretty good if it's really what the effect was. Can you describe what it was like when everything came to a head and, uh, with more do Well, I'm not going to tell you that it takes away some of the best parts of the autobiography because, you know, I was the only person who played it right through, you know. So there were stories of [01:05:30] the the Bar gusta and rights and the Muldoon biography of the meeting in the whips office. And who was there and, uh, you know, then there was the the evening before leading up to it, and in the evening afterwards, he declared, uh, but I'm not surprised it was that issue. [01:06:00] I still have a copy of a book by Bertrand Russell called Common Sense and Nuclear Warfare that my father bought for me in my early teenage years from Harry Clark. Who was the local CPNZ remember in you know, I said we had one of everybody, and I know that the Cuban missile crisis had had a huge effect on my dad and then, [01:06:30] uh, when I was at secondary school. So only a year. A couple of years later, um, the war game, that amazing black and white British documentary about a nuclear bomb came through New Zealand and it was restricted to age 16 unless you went accompanied by a parent. So I got my dad to come and take me out of school and take me to that. And then, you know, the the testing in, [01:07:00] um, I'm nothing has, you know, my there were so many markers for me that independently I. I wouldn't have been aware how how compelling the case was being made inside my mind and inside me, Uh, and in my archives, I'm finding material address to me from things like, [01:07:30] uh, the annual meeting of the I can't I'm sorry. I don't remember what they're called, but I don't know if Presbyterians have synods, but anyway, you know, if the Waikato Presbyterian whatever and they're writing to me and and they're writing to me about apartheid sport, and they're writing to me about, uh, nuclear weapons testing and, you know, heaps of my party officials were good Presbyterians, you know? So this wasn't some [01:08:00] kind of mad left wing fling I was getting from Orthodox kind of centrist organisations, messages, information, lobbying around these issues for a long time. Yeah, so I I probably couldn't have told you how things would spin out, but, um, you know, they'd been Prebble Bill and Bill was there was likely to be something [01:08:30] else. I battled really hard to get the disarmament and Arms Control Select Committee set up. I battled really hard to keep the the the Select Committee alive at the end of each year of parliament, they can die. And there was an attempt to thank goodness I was sitting in the house. There was an attempt to lose that committee. You know, Unfortunately, I just kind of could see that Just got the information soon enough to stop that. Um, [01:09:00] so there were many years probably of of emotional intellectual investment in that issue. Yeah, I'm really proud that that's what caused it. Caused the election. Yeah. Can you tell me about your relationship with Robert Muldoon and and how that changed, Or did it change? I mean, did you always not particularly like him that much? What Didn't I don't know that I've, you know, had [01:09:30] kind of, like, dislike. Whatever. Um, when I worked in the opposition research unit, You know, I, I like all the people who work there. You produce material for him while he was on the campaign trail. And that mostly he got you got out of him, which was what a lot of people got out of him. It was just, you know, so all right. Handed over. Hm. Hm. Thank you. Go. You know, um, then I'm in his caucus. George Gere, I The [01:10:00] very first caucus meeting I went into, I picked the far right hand corner, and George Gear came in and came and pulled me and sat me in the front row directly in front of Muldoon and said, You will sit here. You will sit here and he cannot ignore you. And George sat beside me and for nine years, that's where we sat, you know, directly in front of Muldoon in the front row. Um, and I'm sure he would rather have [01:10:30] had me stay in the far corner. But anyway, it definitely made a difference. Um, and I was amazed, um, in 78 when I was put into the chair of the Public Expenditure Committee. Um, I think actually, that was Tony Friedlander suggestion. But I also think that when they saw I was the only woman in government that, [01:11:00] uh, they thought that putting me in the chair of that committee was one way of slowing me down on feminist issues. It didn't, of course, actually gave me more access, you know, um, especially to ministries, departments, agencies. Um, we we didn't apart from caucus, we really didn't have much interaction at all. But that would be the truth for most [01:11:30] backbenchers. You know, I wasn't in the whiskey brandy drinking sessions. You know, He did wander around corridors and drink with MP S, but he wouldn't have got a free drink in my office. So mhm. And you mentioned that quote from him where he called you a little perverted little liar. Perverted little liar. Where did he say that? In the whips office on the final the night that he called the special [01:12:00] election. Mm. And how did you respond? I laughed and ate an apple. It always drives me mad when people crunch apples and you know, when I'm at a meeting And so when I knew that's where I was going, I took an apple and my father always said to me, If you want to win an argument, go the best dressed. [01:12:30] And I thought it's very, very important that I appear to lose this argument. So I changed out of my suit into my tracksuit, and I went in my tracksuit with my apple. You mentioned George ge a number of times, and I'm thinking it must have been pretty need to have somebody to say? Actually, no, you should be sitting up the front. Oh, George has been special. He was extraordinary. Like both for a researcher for me and then [01:13:00] as a as a mentor or someone who just looked out for me looked after me. Um uh, I had great respect for him, especially on reproductive freedom. Um, issues. He was always there for women around those, um, he's just a thoroughly nice person as well. Uh, and yeah, it would have been very, very different. Different [01:13:30] for me without George there. We're still very good friends. Hm. And he has subsequently completed his master of philosophy with me. What was the feeling? Like leaving parliament? Oh, um, it was wonderful to be out of there. It was It was just amazing. I think it took [01:14:00] a long, long time to recover. You know, um, both physically from fatigue, uh, and emotionally. But but but I knew the farm. I knew the farm was important because I knew the farm would heal. And also, I've been so envious of so many of my constituents, you know, I had dreams of having a little drive up [01:14:30] the hill with grass growing in the middle and daffodils on the side and plum blossoms and, you know, lambs barring and all those things. I mean, I knew there was all the rest of it as well, but it seemed to me that that was that was a promise. I held out for myself and helped get me through very shortly after that, Um, we had Fran Wilde and the introduction of the homosexual law reform. Did you Did you have anything to do with either campaigning [01:15:00] or or or working in that area? Um, uh, No, I wasn't. Um uh, I wasn't I was I was there to give strength to Fran, but I wasn't engaged in any of the other. You know, there's only so many times you can do that to yourself. It's your friend will tell you. You know, it's harrowing. Sue Bradford will tell you it's harrowing, so no. [01:15:30] Oh, I did lobby my own MP at the time. It was a bit of a waste of time. That was Lockwood Smith. But, um, yes, you know, I would still do things like that. You've also mentioned Catherine O'Regan a number of times, and it was in the early nineties where she kind of spearheaded the last part of the the human Rights Amendment. Bill going through, uh, [01:16:00] Catherine's been with you for a long, long time. 75? Yeah. You see, my big sister. Um well, that was terrific commitment from her. I guess, in a way, she knew the constituency would be OK, because if they could live with me, they could live with this amendment. You know, they wouldn't have said it was their priority, but still, I think only three national members of Parliament voted [01:16:30] for her amendment. You know it. It's very hard. It's very hard to push like that where your caucus is not going to support you. So I was very proud. The Human Rights Amendment Act came through, and I think it was about 93. And then we've had things like the civil union act and possibly this year, 2012 equal in 2013 as well. Are there other things that the New Zealand [01:17:00] Parliament should be looking at in terms of of LGBTI rights? Well, I strongly opposed civil union. You might know that, um, because equivalence is not equality and civil union was the apartheid solution separate but equal. And I don't see why any of us should settle for second place. And I still find civil union a loss of dignity when you can't have marriage equality. [01:17:30] Um, but the end of your question is very interesting because one of the key things about Lewis's bill and marriage equality is when it talks about gender identity. And this will throw us back in the lead in the world again. Um, because of the use of gender identity. And that's especially important. I, uh, you were at the Human Rights Conference, [01:18:00] so you'll remember Felicia Brown. Acton. I've never forgotten that intervention LGBTI does not include us. We are. We are in Indonesia. We are in Thailand. We We have centuries of cultural tradition that go with our names. We have a special place in our society. We are not LGBTI. We are the language and the names that were given to us. So I think [01:18:30] that actually, the gay movement in New Zealand needs to go there next. That's a really important place to be going. And Lewis has captured that by gender identity. Um, I've just completed a year long job writing modules on gender and economics for U NDP for the entirety of Asia Pacific, which is lovable because that's everything from Iran to new. But outside [01:19:00] of HIV and A I DS, these are now the first UN documents that have third gender through the whole lot of them, even when there's nothing there. No evidence, no data, no anything because I remember in 75 the first chapters that always said men and women and then the entirety of the rest of the document was about men or people on the basis that they didn't have data about women and they wouldn't use a narrative, and I wholeheartedly object to that. So [01:19:30] I keep over it and third gender every way through this. And then there's a footnote all the time and say that says no data are available as yet on this. And it was a battle I had to battle New York. I had to battle Bangkok. Fortunately, they write these really loosey goosey contracts, you know, So part of my contract said that I had to be accurate. And, uh, since Nepal and India already have, you know by the constitutional provisions [01:20:00] or Supreme Court laws or and Pakistan, Bangladesh, Australia have practises. Now you know, for registration around passports. New Zealand's working on it, things like that. I said that that it was inaccurate and I would be in breach of my contract if the gender was not included in gender through the whole thing. So of course it's it's I've really enjoyed it. But it set off a whole lot of feminists who have made their lives from having gender a dichotomous kind of argument, you know? [01:20:30] And now all the things they've written about have all been turned upside down, so I'm not sure where it will go. But I think those are the kinds of places and spaces we must go to. We must pick up the intersex issues I've on my campus. They teach midwifery. So I've had folks from the intersex board up to talk to the academics and and, um, a UT University [01:21:00] to talk about ensuring that all midwifery training includes intersex, you know, so to have, say, to teach people to say you have a beautiful child instead, if you've got a beautiful boy or a beautiful girl, you know it's a beautiful child. I'm worried about the number of babies that are always lined up for the operations in Australia to assign a sex. Um, I think that there's a whole lot of material in the transgender inquiry [01:21:30] that still needs attention, but I'm interested in the dignity of all people, so.

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TITLE: Charles Chauvel - Rainbow Politicians
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VOICES: Charles Chauvel
INTERVIEWER: Jo Jackson / Grizz
TAGS: 2000s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Charles Chauvel; Chris Carter; Dominion Post (newspaper); Exclusive Brethren; Fran Wilde; Georgina Beyer; Gisborne; Gisborne Boys High School; Helen Clark; Jenny Shipley; Jo Jackson / Grizz; Louisa Wall; MMP; Michael Kirby; New Zealand Labour Party; Parliament buildings; Queer Politicians; Rainbow Wellington; Ruth Richardson; Tau Henare; Tim Barnett; Wellington; bullying; civil unions; dignity; discrimination; diversity; education; gay; gay panic defence; gender identity; homophobia; homosexual law reform; human rights; law; marriage equality; mental health; politics; public figure; relationships; respect; social media; suicide; support; transgender; women; youth
DATE: 17 October 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Charles Chauvel from the Labour Party talks to Jo Jackson about what it's like to be a Member of Parliament.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So how long have you been an MP? 6. 5 years. And have you been out that whole time? Cool. Um, what is your How has your life changed from being in the public eye or before you were an MP. Um well, I think that obviously there's, uh you've got a higher profile. You're a public figure. So people feel that, uh, your [00:00:30] personal life is their business. Um, but, you know, frankly, because I've never been, uh, particularly concerned about people knowing about my sexual orientation that really doesn't worry me terribly much when you became, um, more publicly viewed. Did you receive any negative feedback or positive feedback from being queer? I was surprised at some of the tone of the reportage of my, [00:01:00] uh, election. Uh, some of it was openly homophobic, including from the Dominion post. Um, the tone of it was to the effect that a gay lawyer from, uh Wellington Central Just what the Labour Party needs sort of thing. And I felt that that was an interesting reflection on the way that stereotypes were applied. And it surprised me that in a city [00:01:30] as progressive as Wellington, that would be a perspective that would emerge from our major newspaper editorially. Um, what do you think that we can do as a country to try and change the sorts of reactions that occur when people come out of square? Publicly? Well, I think probably, you know, in the 6. 5 years that have elapsed since then, Um, although it's a short period of time, attitudes have probably changed somewhat anyway. And it would be surprising if that were to happen to somebody. [00:02:00] Now, um, at least in a big city like Wellington, you know, maybe it would still be harder in provincial New Zealand. So I think, um, what we can do is live our lives openly and proudly. Uh, and I think we can and should insist that the same sort of dignity and respect has [00:02:30] accorded us as anybody else. Um, you know, it certainly made me sensitive to the need to do that whenever anyone has denigrated on any basis. And I think we all need to if we if we want to, I think insist on the right to be treated with dignity, which we all should. We should also remember that that confers a bit of a duty on us to speak up when when others are put [00:03:00] down for irrelevant reasons. Do you think, uh, queer people are represented equally in in Parliament and, well, I think on a numeric basis, um, the number of out queer people is probably a little bit smaller than the general population. Uh, there are more gay out gay men in parliament, and there are out lesbians. [00:03:30] Um, so there are inequalities and disproportions. Um, I'd certainly like to see more out gay people in the place. And I think, uh, you know, it will be good to see our society and our politics evolve. So that will be something that does happen. On the other hand, looking at other jurisdictions like Australia or the states [00:04:00] of Australia, you know, the Commonwealth or the States. We seem to be a safer place for people to be out as politicians than they do, just judging by the numbers. So, uh, we should be better, but we're not as bad as, uh as we could be, I suppose. What do you think that we could do again as a country to, um, make the people less underrepresented in Parliament? or positions of power. Well, again, [00:04:30] I think, um, as members of a community or as members of a group, we probably should be a bit more vocal about insisting that every political party on our rights and our expectations, I think probably we've got into a bit of a rut where we, you know, we kind of assume that the greens and labour will be broadly on side and the other parties may or may not be, [00:05:00] Um and I think, you know, we should We shouldn't kind of settle for that. We should insist that every party be, um you know, either either be expressly responsive to our needs as as a community or as members of a community or say so you know, quite openly that they're not seeking our vote and not seeking our support. Um, in which case, you know, we we've got a clear signal about whether we should support them or not. And we don't really have that culture or that consciousness in New Zealand. [00:05:30] It's There's a you know, if if I hear again the you know, somebody say, Oh, you know I'm not political or I'm not partisan. I mean, it's just unrealistic. People need to insist that parties do take on our perspective or as I say, um, send them a very clear message that they're not interested in them. What can we do to get people more involved in politics? Do you think it's a It's a really good question. And, [00:06:00] you know, 20 years ago I would have said, um, it's all about campaigns. It's about homosexual law reform, human rights, civil unions now marriage, equality. Um, But of course, one of the ironies is that the more progress we make on those particular issues, which is why some of us were motivated to go into politics in the first place. Um, in a way, there's less of an incentive for people to want to become involved in politics, to be able to change laws [00:06:30] or policies. Uh, that are discriminatory. So, um, I suppose in one sense we might be victims of our own success. On the other hand, you know, there are always important issues that need to be confronted, For example, safety and education, the safety of young people growing up. Um, the fact that you know there is still discrimination in our society. I think probably it's It's helping people understand that [00:07:00] one of the easiest ways to exercise direct influence over those things is to sit in this place and, uh, either influence the shape of laws or influence the way in which government policy is formed and exercised. And I think if people have that be a better appreciation of that, um rather than the kind of lens through which they look at politics at the moment, which is a jaded one, thanks [00:07:30] to the media and thanks to social and popular conceptions of politics, then we'd probably be a better educated and more active politically, uh, society. What do you think that we can do to decrease the amount of bullying and suicide rates in you? Well, I think, you know, in the end, we have to insist on a society that exercises zero tolerance around [00:08:00] homophobic and gender-based bullying. And, you know, I think the reality is we are still very much for all our advance as a bit of a frontier society. You know, it's still very hard as a kid growing up in the suburbs or in the provinces you do get exposed to, um uh uh a majority heterosexual culture that is aggressive about promoting itself. And, [00:08:30] uh, so we have to We have to, particularly in schools, have a an insistence on an environment that is safe and where people can feel that they can express themselves legitimately without being put down for it. And, uh, you know, again, we've made some progress in that area, but I think it needs to be an express expectation on schools that that will be the environment in which our young people can, [00:09:00] uh, you know, form themselves in those really important years. What was high school like for you? Well, most of it was spent at Gisborne Boys High, which was a, you know, a pretty macho environment and a rugby dominated culture. But the saving grace, I think for me was the fact that my last year at school was 1985 which was [00:09:30] the year that homosexual law reform began. And so it was a subject that was being widely discussed for the first time. And I was able, I think, to come out with a relative degree of safety at school in my final year. Uh, thanks to the fact that the debate was going on? Um, it created a an environment for me that allowed me to to to discuss that issue openly. And, [00:10:00] uh, so, you know, I think, um, I think for that reason, it was it was better and easier than it could have been. And did you face any discrimination when you did come out of high school? I don't recall any. Um, but I think, you know, one of the issues we all face about coming out is that you know, you you you never know, uh, what might be said about you behind your back or what opportunities you might be missing out on. Um, you just hope that the fact that you you have kind [00:10:30] of liberated yourself makes up for a lot of that. Was there any un education at the time, or any groups or anything that you could go to as a as a young, queer person? No. Um, no. There was There was really nothing by way of peer support. It was. But as I say, because of homosexual law reform, there was an awareness. There was a local group of people who although they didn't declare [00:11:00] themselves to be openly gay or lesbian. They were a kind of lobby and support group for reform. And obviously, you know, that was a group I made contact with. And it happened to have gay and lesbian people in it. Uh, so that was and that wouldn't I think, have been something that would have happened were it not for the fact of the of the bill being discussed and who are your queer heroes, for for myself as a lawyer [00:11:30] and a person with legal and human rights related responsibilities. Michael Kirby, the Australian retired judge who I recently served on a UN committee with, is probably my, um, most serious sort of queer role model. He's been a person who's been in public life, been out, had a relationship, Um, and, you know, done important things legally [00:12:00] and socially for the queer community. Um, my other heroes, I think, would be those who've who aren't necessarily even queer but who've led movements for change, Uh, that have have had a big effect positively for us. I think about obviously Fran Wild. Um, Catherine O'Regan now, uh, Tim Barnett, but also the people that that worked strongly with them [00:12:30] during those campaigns. People like Helen Clark, Jenny Shipley, Ruth Richardson. Um, you know, they've been they've been very significant people in our public life who've who've done a lot to eliminate barriers to equality for us. Do you think your sexuality affected whether or not people voted for you? Well, I certainly know that there are people in, uh, the electorate that I stood in who didn't vote for me because I'm gay. [00:13:00] I know that because it's a stronghold of the exclusive Brisbane, and they made their views very clear when they drove past our placards and our, uh, our electorate presence when we were kind of sign waving. And what have you, Um, how major that is I couldn't tell you. As far as you know, Um, a net effect on on the, uh, on the actual outcome. Um, have you faced any ho homophobia you don't think you would have faced had you not been in the public eye? [00:13:30] Yes. I think the Dominion Post editorial that I referred to, um, there's a particularly nasty Fairfax commentator called Rosemary McLeod who, you know, one day, once upon a time, was actually quite progressive, but has got sort of nuttier and more conservative in her old age. And she has a particular, uh, I think polemic approach to gay people in public life. Those of us who dare to speak out and, you know, sort of demand that we should have equality, [00:14:00] I think are regarded by her as particularly, uh, wrong headed, Um And I you know, the more on a more intangible level there is, um, you know, there's a section of the commentariat of New Zealand, uh, and talk back radio and in certain print media who probably would never come out with express homophobic sentiments. But, [00:14:30] um, whose entire perspectives are coloured by, uh, a clear lack of tolerance for any out gay or lesbian people in public life. What about in Parliament itself, like the marriage equality bill readings or anything? Um, ironically, because he is a very strong supporter [00:15:00] of marriage, equality and somebody who I've really enjoyed working with, Uh, that's from the National Party, who's, you know, demonstrated that he is clearly on side on this stuff has been one of the people who, you know, has not hesitated to in, uh to engage in banter across the house that clearly has a homophobic tinge. So, um, I guess what we have to do is disregard that in favour of the, uh, of the voting record. But sometimes it's a little bit [00:15:30] hard to swallow. I have to say, How do you deal with homophobic statements? Well, I think you just have to, um, deal with them in the way that you deal with all bullying, which is not give the bully the satisfaction of showing that it's a hurtful thing to do. Um, and I think it's important to have a group of people who are supportive of you without question who you can vent to. Uh, you know, when you come back to your office and want to talk [00:16:00] about how stink it makes you feel basically to have to put up with that sort of thing. Um, but, you know, I think it is important that you show some strength and not give them the satisfaction of showing that those sort of things, you know, still hurt. Are there any, um, positive experiences that have come from you being publicly out? Oh, yeah. I mean, and And I think you know the reason that probably I had to think a bit about the negative experiences before I could put my finger [00:16:30] on them is that they they are far outweighed by the positive experiences. You know, the number of people, younger people from schools who send you emails or Facebook or whatever. Just saying, You know, look, it's really great to know that you're in Parliament, that you've been speaking out about the importance of marriage, equality or safety in schools or whatever the issue. Um, you know, it's the the the The fact that people take the [00:17:00] time to let you know that you know what you're doing is important. Does make a difference. Does contribute to that safer and more positive environment by the fact that you are in public life and being out and speaking out on the issues and wanting to be an advocate and a representative, Um, they are they are incredibly positive experiences, and there are a lot of them. People are are good and generous like that. And are you glad you publicly came out? I've been glad since about the age of 15 [00:17:30] or 16 that I've never been in the closet. I couldn't live my life that way. Can you think of any motives for anyone to not come out that might be in Parliament. Right? Um, II. I can certainly understand why some people, particularly in conservative political parties, would find it difficult. Um, I, you know, can think of examples of people [00:18:00] who I think are probably gay who have been in politics, haven't been able to bring themselves to come out. Um, because their upbringing, their families, their peer groups, their ambitions, all those things lead them to think that if they came out, they might lose one of those things that are really important to them. Um, as I say I can I can envisage [00:18:30] their thought processes. Uh, I don't think that it's the right approach, uh, from the point of view of their well-being and mental health, and I certainly think it does a lot of damage. So do you currently have a same sex partner? Uh, do you find yourself treated differently at public engagements or anything, or are people surprised? Um, generally speaking, if we've been invited to something as a couple, [00:19:00] they will know that it's two men coming, So it's really only on the sort of odd occasion when you show up and you say This is my partner who happens to be a man that you can see. Perhaps there's a little bit of a surprise initially, but again, I think people are pretty generous. I remember when I was guest of honour at, um um, one of the birthday celebrations of the Prophet Muhammad from the Muslim community in Wellington. And my partner and I discussed with, [00:19:30] you know, it was something we wanted to do together. We had it was an invitation to me and my partner to attend, and we thought, Oh, well, you know Chris Carter had his ethnic affairs minister gone to a lot of these sorts of events with his male partner. And, you know, part of the role is all about breaking down barriers, so we thought we would, um But Dave said, Look, I'll II. I don't want to kind of make them feel uncomfortable at their own [00:20:00] event. I'll I'll be sort of in the background. And they were the ones who said, Oh, look, your partner come forward here. Here's the sit together at the meal and you know, So I think again, we, um we certainly shouldn't, um, subject ourselves to sort of internalised homophobia in those sort of situations. Um, and I think you know it. It it is an important part of being a public figure that [00:20:30] when you are with a partner, you you act as as you expect to be treated. What do you think about the, um, wording of the Human Rights Act when it comes to trans people? Well, I think it's, um, a deficiency that there isn't an express, um, provision protecting trans people. You probably know that there's an opinion from the Crown Law Office which says that, um, [00:21:00] the ground of sex and the Human Rights Act would almost certainly be interpreted by a New Zealand court to include transgender status. Um, so it may well be that the substantive protection is already there. It's just not made express or explicit. Um, I think it ought to be. Do you think that's something that needs to change? I agree with the Human Rights Commission report [00:21:30] to be who I am, that it is one of the legislative changes that we need to make in order to achieve full formal legislative equality in New Zealand. So what kind of support do you get from the queer community? Um, well, I mentioned earlier that, you know, there's a lot of individual support on the basis of social media and email and what have you, And that's that's always really nice. Um, [00:22:00] probably, I would say less formal support from organised groups like Rainbow Wellington I. I don't I haven't really sort of encountered any any expressed support from groups like that. And what do you think that we can do to have, uh, more queer people supporting MP S in Parliament? Queer MP S? Well, you know, I think, um, it's a two way street. [00:22:30] We need as MP S to make our communities aware of what we're doing. Uh, in respect of queer issues, Um, I remember when I was campaigning to get rid of the so called gay panic defence, the partial defence of provocation. Um, I found it a little bit frustrating that there wasn't really a whole lot of interest from our communities and issues that were seen as quote unquote political. And yet, you know, this was a [00:23:00] This was AAA legal matter that, you know, I found really offensive and a lot of queer people when I spoke to them and explained the issue. Also did, um I guess what I would really like to see would be more of the sort of education around civics that I spoke of earlier, where people are encouraged to kind of understand the way politics works formally [00:23:30] and and and a and a discrete sense in the education system. And, um, I think, um, certainly, if we're going to make progress on issues like safety in schools, we're gonna need a lot more pressure from our communities. And that's got to be done in an organised way. And it's got to be, um it's got to be, [00:24:00] uh, a dialogue where the community says to its representatives in Parliament, This is what we want and we'll support you to, um, make this happen. But, you know, and I think that dialogue is is missing. You know, we have gay and lesbian MP S, but it's quite difficult to be accountable to a community that is so diverse and so lacking in formal organisational structures. So what do [00:24:30] you think about the underrepresentation of gender minorities in parliament? Well, I hope it's a I hope it's, uh, a phenomenon that will diminish with time. Um, I mean, I you know, I think Georgina Baer was a real trail blazer. Um, I think N MP has probably helped [00:25:00] in terms of getting the representation of women up generally, although, you know, it's not something you can even relax about. Um, my own view is that probably, you know, again our communities need to to state some expectations of political parties, which are the kind of the intervenor between them and or between the people as it were and the parliament [00:25:30] and and to say, You know, we expect you to put forward party lists and to select candidates that show us that we are, uh, parts of a community whose whose votes you value and and one of the ways you do that, apart from espousing our issues, is selecting from our communities.

IRN: 617
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_politicians_louisa_wall.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004054
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089348
TITLE: Louisa Wall - Rainbow Politicians
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Louisa Wall
INTERVIEWER: Jo Jackson / Grizz
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Black Ferns; Civil Union Act (2004); Darren Hughes; Georgina Beyer; Helen Clark; Human Rights Act (1993); IRB World Cup; Louisa Wall; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Manurewa; Marilyn Waring; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Martina Navratilova; Māori; New Zealand Labour Party; Parliament buildings; Queer Politicians; Silver Ferns; Uganda; bullying; civil unions; discrimination; equality; family; gender identity; homosexual law reform; human rights; identity; indigenous rights; lesbian; marriage equality; netball; normalisation; parents; relationships; sport; suicide; takatāpui; television; transgender; women; youth
DATE: 17 October 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Louisa Wall from from the Labour Party talks to Jo Jackson about what it's like to be a Member of Parliament.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So, um, how long have you been an MP? Um, I've been an MP on and off. Might sound funny on and off since 2008. Uh, so I came in under the last, um, term of the Helen Clark government, Um, as a labour list MP, uh, for eight months. And in 2008, I stood for labour in the seat of Tamaki. Ma, I wasn't successful. Um, and then I wasn't high enough on the list to come back. [00:00:30] And so in, uh, 2011. Excuse me? I re-entered Parliament again as a labour list MP when, um, the honourable Darren Hughes left. And so the first, um, list stunt was eight months then I had a seven month stint, uh, as a labour list MP in 2011, But at the 2011, um, general election, I was Labour's candidate in the electorate of and I was successful. So the first time I've entered, [00:01:00] um, a term. And obviously I've got a different responsibility now, so I'm the MP for And have you been out the whole time? You've been involved in politics? Yes. I have I I came out. In fact, um, in trying to get my dates right, Um, in 1998 when I was a member of the Black Fins and that year we had the first, um, IRB sanctioned Women's Rugby World Cup. [00:01:30] And so I was a member of the black ferns, and I had a profile on the rugby news. So I was the back page profile. Um, and under partner, I put my partner's name Michelle, and that's how I came out. And so you've been in a pub in the public eye for quite some time, then? Yes, I have. And do you think that being in the public eye means that you were have been treated differently because of your sexuality? That you might not have been otherwise? Oh, I think there's been a lot of interest. Um, um, in terms of my sexuality, um, if [00:02:00] I look back to, uh, 1998 it did cause a bit of a, uh, not stir. But there was interest because there weren't many people at that time who were out in society. Um, and I guess in the domain of sport, um, there aren't many. Still, when you look at our All Blacks black ferns and silver ferns, uh, representatives who are out and proud. And so, yeah, I've kind of always since that point are being seen as somebody who, [00:02:30] um uh, you know, as a recognised member of our rainbow community, Uh, and when I did it, um, I was just answering the question. So for me, being being part of the rainbow community, um, is a really normal and natural thing to be, and so I've never hidden who I am. And II I, uh, respect and myself and my partners, so I would never hide it. And I've kind of found that because I've had such an open, honest, uh, regard for my sexuality, I've [00:03:00] not had much problems with it, To be honest, not not to my face. Um, obviously may have caused problems, um, to other people. But I've not been the recipient of any negative behaviour towards me because of my sexuality. Do you think your sexuality affected whether or not people voted for you? Uh, well, it's interesting, because I guess, um, when I look at the seat that I, um, stood in, it is, um, some would say conservative by virtue of the demography. So it's 32% Pacific, [00:03:30] 28% Maori, Um, 17% Asian, mostly Indian. New Zealanders. So a lot of, uh, new migrant communities, obviously a high density of church groups. Um, but I just was myself through the whole campaign, uh, whether or not people knew or not and whether it affected into them voting for me. Um, but obviously in that electorate, I do have to acknowledge that Labour has got a strong brand. And so, you [00:04:00] know, the biggest challenge for me, uh was, in fact, securing the nomination for the seat. And I was one of seven candidates. So, um, it I don't believe it plays a role. Uh, some people may think it does. I didn't stand on the list either, So I basically said to the community of, um if you want me, you have to vote for me, and I will do that again. Actually, in 2014, I will say to the community, uh, if you want me, you have to vote for me. And obviously the context will be different because I am the [00:04:30] member who's introduced the marriage, um, equality or the marriage definition of marriage. Um, Amendment Bill. So there will be now a lot more potential focus on my sexuality because of the profile around the bill. Um, what inspired you to to start with the bill? Oh, what inspired me is is our community, um, and young Rainbow uh, members. Um, I think it's really incumbent on people like myself who, um, have ended up in a in [00:05:00] a decision making position to continue to build on the legacy of, um, legislative reform. Uh, for us as a country, Um, we've come from homosexual law reform in 1986 to recognising that we can't discriminate based on sexual orientation, which was added to section 21 of our Human Rights Act in 1993. Uh, we then had a period during the, um, mid to late nineties, where our community wanted, uh, recognition of relationships [00:05:30] through the ability to marry, uh, which then led to the development of the civil unions legislation. And so what I'm trying to do is to continue to advance. Uh, what for me is an issue of equality and non-discrimination. So, as citizens of New Zealand in a modern democratic society, uh, our sexuality shouldn't limit our ability to be free and equal citizens and, for example, within the context of marriage equality, we should have equality of opportunity [00:06:00] like any other New Zealander. So, um, that's really what drives me. Um, and it is about creating a legacy and continuing to build on the legacy from those who have come before us. So that, uh, the people who come in front of us or in the future, um, don't have to endure what other, uh, generations have, which is discrimination, which is hatred, Uh, which is, um, degradation of our identity. Uh, which is, um, [00:06:30] I believe feed into, um, our youth suicide phenomenon in some ways. So, yeah, we are going somewhere, and that somewhere for me, uh, is just equality. And can you think of any other ways to potentially decrease the amount of youth suicide that exists in queer communities? Um, well, I think that this bill will make a difference, because what it will say is that, uh, the state recognises and values and respects our homosexual community [00:07:00] and our non heterosexual community. Uh, is, um I like to call us ordinary citizens. Actually, we don't need any special privileges. We just want to be treated, uh, like everybody else. So I think if we have that macro environment where the state is saying, um, we won't discriminate against any citizen Uh, yes, that will have some flow on effects. Um, what those will be will be interesting. But you know, what I'm hoping is that, uh, young people will be supported much more in [00:07:30] their sexual self determination. Uh, that young people will be able to go to the school board with their partner like it won't be a big deal, uh, that young people will be able to talk about in a very natural way. Uh, the fact that they are attracted to, um somebody of the same gender. And it's not going to be, um or then provide a focus point for them to be bullied and harassed. So that's what I'm hoping. What do you think of the wording of the current Human [00:08:00] Rights Act and with regards to gender and gender identity? Yeah, that's really interesting, because when um, Georgina Baer was a member of Parliament here, she did propose that in addition to sex and sexual orientation, we should add gender identity to the list of, um, areas that you can't discriminate against. Uh, and there was a crown law opinion, in fact, that sex and the broader definition of sex actually included gender identity. Um, but you would have seen from my bill that I have, [00:08:30] uh, been very clear that marriage is between two people, regardless of their sex, sexual orientation or gender identity. So, in fact, my bill has broadened it to specifically include gender identity. And I've done that because I think there is recognition. Well, certainly from from me, uh, that this isn't a same sex marriage bill, because in fact, it's about people. And it's about the the person and the full person [00:09:00] not being confined to two sexes. And that's always been the point from some of our intersex trans community members that they are really vulnerable because we kind of have this binary, uh, view of sexuality and that that doesn't fit. It doesn't fit how they think about themselves. It doesn't fit. Um, I guess in a in a modern world where I think people are a lot more willing now to share and who they are, which means you kind of have a range and people like money [00:09:30] where I've seen documentaries about her being a hermaphrodite. But that's, you know, that whole binary, uh, gender, Um, and it's kind of like you're ascribed at birth to either be one or the other. Um, but my bill was always about being incredibly inclusive and not excluding anybody. And I think that's why when people want to say that my bill is about gay marriage, actually it isn't. It is about marriage equality in its purest form, because it's about two people who [00:10:00] want to who love each other who want to commit and to form a family, which for me, is the basic unit in society. And, um, do you think that the word of the Human Rights Act needs to change in order to be more inclusive of people that are gender variant? Um, I? I guess we we have to come to as a community as an appreciation, Um that, um I guess our world evolves all the time and, you know, is gender identity [00:10:30] going to be the term that satisfies all our community? But I'm really happy to continue to have the conversation with our community about whether or not it does need to be added because we do have sex and sexual orientation. And if gender identity is something that our community think that we should be pushing for Yeah, then we we should be having discussions about that. Um, I I'm not sure where the community is. And after Rina proposed it and there was the crown war opinion, it was almost like, Oh, maybe we don't have to, [00:11:00] um but it would be really interesting. Um, yeah, to get the Human Rights Commission position on it, and in fact, whether they think that it needs to be specifically included. And from my perspective, I really want to know whether our communities still want it. Because the motivation for Georgina putting, um, that members Bill, uh, as a, um, as as legislative change came from the fact that she was reflecting some of that gender identity community, uh, and [00:11:30] their want or desire to have to make it specific and, um uh, over in terms of the ground, So yeah, but do you do you know, have you talked to some groups? Do you think it is something that our community want? Um, I think personally, knowing a lot of, um, trans and gender people that it is quite a quite a big deal to quite a lot of people in situations. OK, well, that's that's that's really important. So, yeah, we need to listen to our community. [00:12:00] Um, you said before that you have a same sex partner. Um, do you find yourself treated differently at public engagements because of that, or are people surprised? Um, well, not really anymore. I I've been in the public now for a few years, and so most people know, um and in fact, what's become really, um, lovely is probably the best way to describe it. I I've just recently been invited to the Stein Lager rugby awards, which are happening in December, and they've invited me and [00:12:30] my partner Prue, and you know, that's really lovely. So, um, I think no people aren't surprised. And in fact, it's not a big deal. You know, I just think that, um yeah, there is no reason for um us to be treated any differently to any other couple. And in fact, yeah, I don't I don't think it's a big deal in modern New Zealand. I mean, The reality is because we're 26 years post homosexual law reform. People are able [00:13:00] to live open free lives. Um, we do in the community has responded by embracing and accepting. And so, yeah, I think we're in a really good space. And I I am personally, um, but I wouldn't know if I'm not. Haven't been invited to events because I am and will be bringing my female partner. It's hard to say, but the ones that I have been know and when they do know, they have completely embraced who I am, which is fantastic. So, uh, who [00:13:30] are your queer heroes? Um, when I was growing up, um, and the first lesbian, um, that just Oh, I thought she was awesome. Was Martina never? Because I love sport. Um, you know, I grew up in a household where my dad and I would get up to watch Wimbledon, and, um, yeah, she was amazing. So I got this book and then found out she was a lesbian, and and, um, I think when I did, though, I didn't realise I was lesbian, But she was my [00:14:00] first lesbian role model. Um, I don't really have many lesbian role models other than, um, for me personally, I've I've been through Massey University, and I ended up doing a master of philosophy and social policy, And Marilyn Waring was my, um, master's supervisor, and she's kept in touch, and actually, she's a really good, um, person for me to talk to. And so I would consider her a mentor. [00:14:30] Um, so I would I would highlight that Marilyn or Professor Marilyn Waring is somebody who I will, um, always have something to do with. And so I respect her and the work that she's done specifically advancing the rights of women. Um, but also our LGBTI community. Yeah. Um, so do you think that it is harder to be in the underrepresented minority that is queer people in Parliament or the underrepresented group that is [00:15:00] women in Parliament? They really, um, really interesting and good questions, because I do think that, um, being a minority and being marginalised, um, means that sometimes you experience generic discrimination. But then there is specific discrimination. Um, based on other dimensions of who you are. Are they the same? Not always. Um, but fundamentally, they are underlined by power relationships. Um, [00:15:30] I I guess from the people who are perpetuating the discrimination. Um, they have power and it is abusive, and it's unacceptable. Um, is one worse than the other? Um, I think it depends on the context because sometimes I think, um, minority groups can marginalise each other, which is an irony in itself. But sometimes it's we're kind of set up like that. It's almost like I won't call it a primal instinct. But you kind [00:16:00] of have competition always. And so you're always gonna have white men at the top and the current societies and how current societies are ordered. And then I guess, a hierarchy sometimes, but not always, because it changes in different contexts. So, um, and I'll just talk about one briefly. I went, um, over to Uganda earlier this year as a member of the International Parliamentary Union, Um, gathering and I was one of three representatives from New Zealand who went, and there's a a concerted effort now internationally [00:16:30] within those international political context for a concept called gender mainstreaming. And so in that context, um, I think that there's a global recognition that women, um, are underrepresented and they're doing stuff about it but they're not doing anything about rainbow parliamentarians or indigenous parliamentarians. And so I do think at the moment there's kind of a global consensus that we have to address the underrepresentation democratically [00:17:00] of women, which is good. So I probably would say that, uh, yeah, rainbow LGBTI, but also indigenous peoples. And then you'd have other people, um, or ethnic groups who are more marginalised in context, like parliament. And you can look at the numbers for that. You know, we've got 32% representation of women. Um, I think there's 17% representation of Maori, and then you've got to look at what? Our ethnic? Um yeah, ethnic, um, Pacific. And then [00:17:30] LGBTI representation is, um So what was your high school experience like and like in terms of being queer, Well, that's probably where I had a really different experience because, you know, if if I reflect back, I probably knew that I was attracted to I didn't know. I was attracted to, um, women when I was 12. Um, but I got in the New Zealand netball team when I was 17, and I started playing senior netball when I was 14. And so [00:18:00] my sexuality, in a way was, um, not my priority. My priority was to play netball and become a silver fern. And so I didn't come out at high school. I came out when I was, um, 21 and I came out. And for me, it was, um, a process of consciously being a consciously knowing and then acknowledging, um, my [00:18:30] sexuality, if that makes sense. So I didn't have role models who were lesbian. And to be fair, the whole Martina thing is I didn't realise she was lesbian When I first, um, had a crash or whatever you wanna call it with her. She was just this amazing tennis player who I aspired because I love sport. Um, and so intellectually, when I realised oh, my goodness, I'm lesbian And the how I figured out my sexuality was by buying a book. And I read [00:19:00] this book about sexuality, and it was kind of all the different, um, stages of life and the biology. And then this. There was a chapter in it called lesbianism, and I was reading it, and I was thinking, Oh my God, that's me. So it was kind of more of an intellectual recognition and then once I knew, knew because up to then I'd had boyfriends. But when I knew you, then you can't really go back. And, um, for me, because sports this incredibly honest domain like sport, I believe [00:19:30] is the most honest context in the world. Because if you don't put in the work, you get caught out on the sports field because you won't win because you haven't prepared enough. And so once I knew, then that was it. So I just was out pretty much and got my first, um, uh, female partner when I was 21 and my first relationship lasted for we were in our 10th year when we broke up. So yeah, and are you glad you came out publicly? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. [00:20:00] I wouldn't have had it any other way. I couldn't live any other way. I mean, um, I had a good coming out experience. So, um, my parents when I told them my mom cried, my dad said, I love you, but do you understand you're choosing this identity. That will mean there will be people who will discriminate against you. And I pretty much said no, Dad, I'm not choosing it. This is who I am, Um, but discrimination. I guess I'll have to deal with it if it comes. He thought I would. But in the same breath, he was saying, There seems to [00:20:30] be a lot more people who are out these days lawyers, doctors, sort of in the community that have met the identity as being mainstreamed, if that makes sense and and for for today, um, and and young people of today I love modern family, you know, I love Grey's Anatomy. I love in Arizona and actually a lot of people who watch that show well, and so I think, for for this generation of of New Zealand and probably right across the globe, we're [00:21:00] being normalised. Our identity is being normalised. And so yeah, it's. And I do think, too, that it's kind of cool to be gay. In a way, I don't know what you feel like. You're a young person today, but I think if you can get past high school where it might not be so cool when you get to university or if you're a young adult, I think it's much easier. And I don't know if that's right or not. But can you think of any reasons that anyone would choose not to come out in the public eye, such as Parliament? Oh, absolutely. [00:21:30] And it's usually related to family and community. Um, but it also could relate to another valuable belief system that they've grown up in, whether it be church or some other group, where they're made to feel, um, like their identity or somehow compromise their religious belief. And I hope that, um, whatever context people are in, that they're supported and that there are people in there who will care enough for them to [00:22:00] allow them to determine all of themselves, which includes the sexual, um, identity in a really positive, nurturing, respectful way. But I think a lot of suicide of young people happens because, um, our young people just don't see a way out. Can't tell their parents can't tell anyone within this circle because they might compromise or disappoint or, um, yeah, so [00:22:30] I can I can totally understand it. I don't think anyone should ever be altered. I mean, people will need to make those decisions themselves because they live with it, and they understand the community that they live in. But, um, I'm hoping through my bill, though, because there has been so much talk about it that it will create spaces for people to even say I don't even know, But I'm a little bit confused. What are my options? And then it will be about, I don't know, meeting somebody. [00:23:00] And the chemistry happens and, you know, So, um, yeah.

IRN: 618
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_politicians_grant_robertson.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004053
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089347
TITLE: Grant Robertson - Rainbow Politicians
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Grant Robertson
INTERVIEWER: Jo Jackson / Grizz
TAGS: 2000s; Agender New Zealand; Aotearoa New Zealand; Chris Carter; Chris Finlayson; Georgina Beyer; Grant Robertson; Harvey Milk; Human Rights Act (1993); It Gets Better; John Banks; Maryan Street; Matthew Shepard; New Zealand Labour Party; Parliament buildings; Rainbow Youth; Stephen Franks; Tim Barnett; Wellington; alcohol; coming out; depression; discrimination; diversity; education; equality; family; gay; homophobia; homosexual law reform; marriage equality; politics; public figure; queer straight alliance (QSA); relationships; rugby; school; single sex schools; social justice; sport; suicide; support; transgender; youth
DATE: 15 October 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Grant Robertson from the Labour Party talks to Jo Jackson about what it's like to be a Member of Parliament.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How long have you been an MP? I was first elected in November 2008. So we're just coming up to four years now? A bit of a while, then, um, have you been out that whole time? Absolutely. Yeah. No, I was I was elected as a as a, um, out MP. And, um, you know, been in terms of my longer political life and that it's been part of who I am forever. And for a long time, Publicly. So So you were out before coming into the public eye? [00:00:30] Yeah, definitely. So, um, I kind of, uh, I guess came to terms with my you know, who I was and my sexuality, as in my late teens And, you know, and my friends have always known And I guess as as you get into the public arena, these things are are mentioned. And so it's never been something I've had at all. Um how has your private life had to change? You know, adjusting to the public art. Oh, you start to realise the more you're in politics and [00:01:00] the more you do that that people are very interested in your whole life, not just what you might think politically. So I'm very conscious now when I'm out in public that people know who I am. And so I'm a better and safer driver than I probably was before then. And it does affect a little bit. Um, you know, my partner and I have had a few experiences of people kind of coming up and talking to me and sometimes not always being that, um positive. And that's not great. So you do have to kind of manage your social [00:01:30] life a little bit just to acknowledge that Yeah. Um, how do you deal with those sorts of Oh, you've just got to be in a position to be, I think, just be calm and And if somebody is raising legitimate questions or asking things and the situation is OK, then I'm happy to answer them. If someone comes up to you on a Saturday night when you're obviously watching the rugby on the TV at the pub and it's not really appropriate, I just try to say to somebody, Look, can you come and see me next week? And I usually give them my card or whatever and say, Here's the number you can ring. And I'm happy to see you next week and talk [00:02:00] about this. Try and diffuse it a little bit. Do they tend to, um, take you up on your offer? Not generally. Interestingly, not not as much follow up as there might be. But But there are people who do. Um, you know, if I'm at the supermarket or whatever, people often come up and just have a few words, and that's fine. I mean that to me, that's part of being an MP. Is that you? You've got to be accessible and available and and there When it Yeah, When it's somebody who might have had a few too many drinks on the Saturday then, I think, Yeah, they They can probably wait till Monday to work out whether they really need to talk to me or not. [00:02:30] Um, you said before that you started to come out in your late teens. Um, what was your high school experience like? It was OK, uh, I I ended up being the head boy of my, um, high school and, you know, and I played rugby and I did all those sorts of things and and I had some pretty big personal difficulties. Sort of going through what now? What called year 12? Um, you know, year 12. Particularly as I was kind of grappling with my with who I was. And so, [00:03:00] you know, I had some really down very dark, depressing times personally. But that wasn't so much to do with my high school. I wasn't being bullied or anything like that about it. It was more me dealing with it myself. Um and I you know, I enjoyed my high school years. I had a really good circle of friends and and but I, I guess I as I managed myself how I thought about who I was that had some impact. And I In my seventh form year, I kind of knew that I was [00:03:30] gay. But I, I didn't and close friends started to find out. Oh, I didn't know. But I, I didn't, you know, make it make anything public about it. I left that until I actually finished at school. And did you face any homophobia in high school or anything? A little bit. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, there was, um, one or two people who probably worked it out, and there was a little bit of that from people. Yeah, but because I wasn't really out as such. I mean, [00:04:00] you know, I wasn't in a in a sort of public sense out as a teen. As a high school, it didn't really have that big an impact. But there were certainly people, and, you know, it's it's incredibly, and I imagine it's no different today for people trying to deal with that. Um, in those teenage years where things are, there's a real heightened sense of, of, of the importance of who you are and your friends and your school. And it's a really hard period to manage. And I did struggle with it personally. Definitely. [00:04:30] Um, but that wasn't really didn't play out in the public arena so much. Um, was there any, uh, queer education when you were in high school? Absolutely not. No, um, this is the mid 19 eighties or mid and late 19 eighties, and there was no there was nothing. We I don't recall it ever being discussed at all in at high school. And can you think of, um, anything that we could do to maybe lower the youth? Um, queer youth suicide Oh, absolutely, Look. [00:05:00] And I think it's It's incredibly important that we talk to people to teenagers about, um, people being able to to make their own decisions and that they that there is a there is support for them, that this is something that, um is is fine for them to be able to deal and manage with. And we basically need good role models, and we're getting more and more of those role models. You know, the, you know, I mean, not just politicians, but, you know, people like coffee and that being [00:05:30] publicly, you know, out there showing the support for causes like Rainbow Youth and that kind of thing, it's actually really important to be able to do that. But we've got we've got to support young, particularly young men, because that's where the suicide rate, um is it can be as you know, I mean, it's bad for women and men, but I think we've got to be able to provide people with with the positive messages about where their lives can go. The one thing I can remember from how I felt as [00:06:00] a teenager was that I couldn't really see beyond where I was. And that's the problem with youth. Suicide, particularly for queer people, is not being able to see beyond that, you know, the the message and that the, um the campaign that was done in the US about it gets better. You've seen that campaign. Now here, um that is that is get better. Message is is the core of it for me? Because it does. But when you're in that space, you don't feel that [00:06:30] way. And I didn't as a as a sort of 16 year old, I didn't know that there was a way out for me, you know, And I drank too much, and I and I reacted how I did. Personally, other people react in other ways, and we've got to be able to get the message across to people that there is a positive path forward for you. Role models play a huge part in that, um, you were talking before about, um, the youth suicide rates being higher for men than young women. Um, do [00:07:00] you think that it's harder to be, uh, an out queer man or an out queer woman in in public? Um, I think I I can't really answer that question because obviously, I don't have the experience of being an out queer woman. I think I think there is, uh, still challenges and a degree of prejudice for all, um, people who come out in that way. What I do know is that the we still in New Zealand have a culture for men and boys [00:07:30] that would make it hard. And so I guess that I'm really speaking from my own experience there, uh, that, uh, that there are cultural aspects that that make it more more challenging, maybe for for men. But I don't have the experience from the other side. And I'm sure if, um, you were sitting here with a with a a lesbian woman, they can talk to you more about that. But so, um, you you just said about the culture around, Um uh, men do. Can you think of ways that that could change? [00:08:00] Possibly for the well, I think one of the things we've got to do is is let people be who they are, and I think we've got to encourage and support the fact that there is success in a lot of different areas, and I actually think schools are getting better at this. You know, I went to a single boys school and I now spend some time in single sex boys schools around Wellington and around New Zealand. And I do notice that there is a lot more encouragement of of other kinds of activities outside of just playing [00:08:30] rugby. I mean, I did play rugby, so it was fine for me. But outside of just playing rugby, there are actually some some greater level of options for people. So I think one of the things we've got to do is is open all of that up and say, you know, success can come in many different forms and we need to make the culture of of being in a in a school to be inclusive of the diversity of people and provide the diversity of options. You know? And I think in other, you know, places, things like [00:09:00] the the gay straight alliances that have developed have been great where they've developed, you know, because I think that really gives people some ownership of of of the kind of diversity issue within schools. So I think those sorts of things should really be encouraged. I think having Rainbow youth come into schools is really good and positive as well. So there's lots of things we can kind of do to break that kind of cultural stuff down. Uh, but, you know, there's there. There are gonna be barriers and challenges for people along the way. You talked before about, [00:09:30] um, faith and homophobia when you were out in the public eye. What about in Parliament itself? Is there anything that Not really No, it's actually been pretty good. There was. There were a couple of comments to kind of interjections thrown across the chamber on one particular occasion, which, you know, would be in the category of homophobia, um, directed at me. Uh, but other than that, no. And in fact, I've been, you know, I think it's a huge change. You know, I remember [00:10:00] talking to Chris Carter when I first became an MP. And he when he was the first out gay male MP in 1993. You know, he had dreadful stuff said to him and John Banks was here then as a national MP. And whenever Chris would get up, he'd put papers in front of himself. So, you know, he didn't have to look at Chris and things terrible things would get yelled out and I'd call them Christine and all this kind of things. So things have changed a lot in the intervening 19 years. Um, which is good. [00:10:30] Uh, there's the odd moment that's not so much. Maybe about parliament and being an MP. But, you know, getting invited to functions or whatever. And people making assumptions about about my partner, if I have one, will be a female and that kind of thing. Um, you know, there's that sort of latent homophobia that kind of sits behind a lot of, uh, what's going on, but, um, overall, it's been it's actually been OK. And how do you deal with statements [00:11:00] that are thrown across? Oh, look, I tend to try and confront the person, um, pretty much directly. I don't think there's any point in Not and I did on that particular occasion. Uh, just make sure the person aware that I was aware of what they said and that I didn't find it acceptable. So I think that's what you in my position, like, I've got that. It's what you need to do. Um, do you think that your sexuality affected whether or not people voted for you? That's a really interesting question. Um, I suspect for some people it might [00:11:30] have. I certainly got some letters. And so on, immediately after I was elected one couple in particular one in particular and another one that alluded to it where clearly it had affected those people in a negative way. Um, but I don't think in general it has. I think that, uh, in Wellington Central particularly. It's a very inclusive and tolerant uh, electorate. And I think, um, it certainly wasn't a major issue for most people. And I think [00:12:00] now, hopefully people are judging me on whether I'm a good MP or not. Um, regardless of my sexuality, I was reelected with a a much bigger majority than the one that I had when I first got in. So that was good. There was a little bit of a kerfuffle around. Um, the initial my initial election in 2008 because my opponent was a, uh, national opponent was a guy Steven Franks. And he had made some comments which previously, when he'd been an MP, which got a bit of publicity during the election campaign. He he famously [00:12:30] said during the Civil Union debate, He said, Um, I love my dog, but that doesn't mean I should be able to marry it. And that got raised during not by me but by some other people got raised during the the campaign, Um, that, uh, that we had in that court and it ended up long story. But he end up getting on to, uh, some footage of us having a bit of a discussion about it at a meeting ended up on TV. And, you know, there was some issues that kind of floated [00:13:00] around around that, But that wasn't so much about me as about him and his views. So I think Wellington Central is a place where that I don't think it really has affected my vote. In general. Of course, specific people may well have concerns, but so be it. Um, are there any positive experiences that have come from being queer in Parliament? Oh, look, Heaps, you know, I mean, one of the things is that we you know, we, uh you know, I get to and as a result of that, I get to interact [00:13:30] with all sorts of really interesting groups and people. On Saturday afternoon, I was asked by a group called Agenda New Zealand, which is the Trans support group. Um, that operates, um, nationwide to come. And they they had some issues in the group and they wanted someone to be an independent chair of of their group, um, for their annual general meeting. And I came in and did that. And, you know, by doing that, you learn so much about other people's lives and other people's experiences. And so I think it's been from that point of view, it's [00:14:00] been great. Um, you know, And I guess the other bit is knowing that you can act as a role model for people. And, you know, there was a guy who who wrote to me some time back who who I've sort of had a little bit to do with who was who was coming out as a teenager and interested in politics and for someone you know, for him to write to me and say, Hey, it's great that you're there, and I kind of know that I could have a path through to this if I wanted to that kind of thing is really great, too, to have people, [00:14:30] um, say that kind of thing as well. Um, and so you're glad that you publicly came out then? Well, for me, it's It's a no brainer because, um, it's who I am. So I'm not. I'm completely happy and comfortable with who I am. And so it's just part of me. I never want to be a person who's judged solely on their sexuality. That's not why I'm in politics. I got into politics because I believe in the values of equality and social justice and opportunity for everybody and the other values of the [00:15:00] Labour Party. Uh, that's why I'm here. I I'm a politician who is gay. Um, I'm not a gay person who's a politician, so you know, that's that's how I see it. Um, and I'll always stand up for the rights of of the Rainbow Communities because for me, that's part of the quality and part of of the values that drive me. So I'm, uh, you know, coming out was something I did a long time ago. Um, and it's just part of who I am now, and I I've [00:15:30] never hidden it and never tried to hide it. And, um, I'm happy to be judged for all of who I am, part of which is this And, um, do you know of any other not out queer politicians? Um, yes, I do. And that's it's that obviously, is a decision that they have to make, Uh, and you can't know someone's personal circumstances in that way. I [00:16:00] would I would hope that we lived in a world where a person could just be who they were in politics as they are in any other part of their life and doesn't feel that there's anything holding them back. Um, so I But I can't judge for the people. I do know exactly why it is that they perhaps aren't out. Part of it, I suspect, will be that people don't want to be judged on the basis of their sexuality. They want to be judged on other things. As I say for me, I don't want that either. But I don't see [00:16:30] that those things are mutually exclusive. I think people can be comfortable that they know who you are and and, um, and still judge you on the range of your abilities, and so you don't think that's necessarily a legitimate concern? Um, I'd hope it wasn't, um but, you know, as I say, you can't actually necessarily judge exactly on you know what someone's own circumstances are. So I can't say for sure why a particular person might might not be out. Um, do you think that New [00:17:00] Zealand queer people are underrepresented in Parliament? Um, I don't know. Uh, always happy to see more I. I think we do pretty well, to be honest. I mean, we've currently got, um, representation within, you know, Labour and the greens and national, you know, or be it through somebody who who doesn't really want to talk about it much at all. In terms of Chris Vinson. Um, so it's, you know, I think we're doing OK. Um [00:17:30] but, you know, obviously, the more the merrier. And but again, you know, inside the Labour Party, what we're looking for are are good MP S who can represent the values of the Labour Party, and we're not going to judge them on their sexuality. We're gonna judge them on their abilities. And, you know, that's hopefully you know, where people will feel that they can come into politics and see a party that will do that. And what do you think needs to change in New Zealand for more [00:18:00] queer people to be interested in politics? Well, I do think it comes back to that point of the of as a society as a whole, valuing difference, valuing diversity, Um, that we support a culture where we allow people to be who they are and succeed as in as who they are. That's not really about politics so much. That's about New Zealand as a whole, and then people feeling comfortable that they can come in. The other thing is more general to politics, which is that it is. It's a tough life in terms of your family and and you know you do. Your [00:18:30] family are automatically dragged into a more public place. And for a lot of people, that's just not where they want to go with their lives. You know, my partner is a reasonably private person. He's not somebody who would see the limelight, um, in in the way that I guess I have And so, you know, trying to keep that those boundaries is actually struggle for all politicians, but I guess it would be even more so potentially for for queer ones coming in. So yeah, And who are your queer heroes? [00:19:00] Um, I've got, uh my main political one is Harvey Milk, which won't be a surprise to anybody. I don't think, um because he's, um you know, anyone who breaks ground and and shifts boundaries, I. I admire tremendously. Um, you know, and the the the attribute of courage that people like Harvey Milk showed is great in New Zealand, You know, all of those who've gone before me in politics and I mentioned in my maiden speech, you know, I mean, I've had my issues with [00:19:30] Chris Carter subsequently and the issues he had with the Labour Party. But I still really admire Chris for being the first really out MP that we've had, um, by Marion Street for being the first out lesbian MP in Parliament as well. Um, Tim Barnett, who made giant strides in getting a lot of the legislation pushed through as well, uh, and particularly Georgina Byer, because Georgina, as a as the first trans MP in the world, had to break [00:20:00] ground and face huge challenges and and you know, didn't have all of the things go her way in her political career, but again broke ground and and had, you know, showed real bravery and courage to to do that. But there's all sorts of people. You know, The other day, I was just reflecting with the and what is it now? The 14th anniversary of Matthew Shepherd's death in the States. You know, now you know, Matthew isn't a hero as such, but he's somebody, you know, I look at I look at people [00:20:30] like that, and I think there is a huge amount of to work for, so yeah, but there's lots of people. I mean, I've got lots of people I've met in my life who I think have been brave and courageous, particularly older couples, people who work through the homosexual law reform, um, period, who who, When home security was illegal? Um, you know, so lots of heroes. The heroes aren't always the big public figures. Uh, they're often just the people who've gone about their lives and and and showing bravery and courage [00:21:00] along the way. Um, what do you think about the wording of the Human Rights Act when it comes to, uh, trans people. Yeah, it's an interesting one. So when when we were in in government, Georgina buyer had a bill to explicitly recognise, um Trans, you know, trans people in terms of the act. What what the Human Rights Commission came back and said was, we interpret the language to include trans people. Where [00:21:30] we're probably at is to say, Well, that's good. So that means that where there is discrimination, that that the Human Rights Commission would say, Well, we're already considering them. I don't personally think there is any harm in recognising it explicitly, and it really don't you know, sexual orientation, gender identity are not the same thing. And, you know, we know that. And so while legally it's covered, I could certainly say that personally, I can see the argument for that language changing here. Um, what [00:22:00] can the queer community do to support queer politicians? Oh, look, I think I think the queer community do already. I don't think there's anything that really needs to change. I mean, again, I'm not expecting someone just because they're gay to vote for me or vote for Labour that people will have their own views and one of one of the real strengths of I believe of, of the queer community is that recognition of the diversity within the community, that there are gay rugby players and gay plumbers and gay ballet dancers and gay artists, and and that's great. [00:22:30] And that's for me is a really important thing. So I think I'm not really expecting anything particular from the community in terms of supporting me as a politician, where I think it's important is where there issues come up that are important to the community, the community mobile around them. So if it's marriage, equality or recognition of trans community or whatever, that the community mobilises on those issues and does the work to support, um, those issues, I'm I'm much more keen on that than worrying about whether we're being particularly [00:23:00] supported or not. And what kind of support do you get from the great, You know, I mean, in in terms of particularly here locally in Wellington, you know, I mean, I know a lot of people in the in the queer community, and I've had really good and strong and positive support.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089346
TITLE: Jan Logie - Rainbow Politicians
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Jan Logie
INTERVIEWER: Jo Jackson / Grizz
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Elizabeth Kerekere; Georgina Beyer; Green Party; Human Rights Act (1993); Jan Logie; Kevin Hague; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Parliament buildings; Queer Politicians; Rainbow Caucus (Parliament); University of Otago; abuse; adoption; bullying; children; civil unions; coming out; disclosure; discrimination; diversity; domestic violence; education; gender identity; homophobia; human rights; lesbian; mainstreaming; marriage equality; politics; prison; public figure; representation; suicide; support; transgender; women; youth
DATE: 10 October 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Jan Logie from the Green Party talks to Jo Jackson about what it's like to be a Member of Parliament.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So how long have you been an MP? Oh, that must be about 10 months now. And you've been out the whole time? Yeah. Yeah. Um, I guess I Well, I was out. You know, it's always that thing. I guess you're only out to people. Um, when you come out, particularly if you look like I do. So, um, So I'm sure I wasn't out for lots of people, but, um, at least my maiden speech was making a very clear statement [00:00:30] and that that that's when you publicly came out as it were, I guess, to everyone in Parliament. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, what was your job before you became an MP? I was, um, a development manager of a research group at university. Right. So your private life changed considerably after being in the public eye. Do you think over that transition, I That's an interesting Yeah, I guess so. Um, I'm still kind of coming to grips with that of whether [00:01:00] it has or whether it hasn't or Yeah. Yeah. How has, um, people, people knowing that your queer affected the way that you've been treated both inside parliament and outside? Um, mhm. I'm I guess you never know what you don't know And that kind of, um I don't know if people treat me differently, because I don't know how they treat me otherwise, [00:01:30] um, the outside of parliament, it's been it's mostly comes up quite, I think, quite sadly, um, when people ask me. Hm. So you've got the Pacific Islands portfolio and you've got the Rainbow Portfolio. Do you think there's a conflict there? Yeah, which is really sad. And so that's not really so much about me. It's more, um, people's perceptions that there's [00:02:00] a conflict. So I've been really unclear with these answers. Um, and within Parliament, I think, um, yeah, I actually to tell the within the greens. Um, we've got such a strong kind of human rights focus and justice focus that, um, that isn't an issue. And we can, you know, kind of make jokes and play about things. And why the parliament? I [00:02:30] guess there's a There's a I have a bit of a sense that people have a sense that they have to be a bit careful. Yeah. Um, well, you just said that greens have quite a human rights focus. Um, do you think that your sexuality affected whether people voted for you. Oh, this is Well, I don't know. Hopefully, um, I remember talking to my mom about this when, um, I had to be interviewed to become a candidate for the greens. And you have to pass these kind of things and you have to disclose if [00:03:00] there's any kind of secrets, you know, in your family, which I had to disclose. My dad has a but, um, and my mother was like, Oh, so did Did you tell them you were a lesbian? And I was like, Mom, you know, actually, in the greens, it's not something you have to disclose. It's probably more something you put as a you know, a promotion point because it's about representing different communities. And she's like, Oh, but, well, what do you think about for the general public? And it was a really interesting kind of discussion, because for her, [00:03:30] it's still that perception in society that it's something you would have to disclose that there may be kind of negative consequences to, whereas for the Greens, it's actually I think it is a positive, because it's about furthering our diversity. Um, and do you think that you have faced any homophobia that you wouldn't otherwise have faced if you've been in the public eye. I mean, I know it's hard to, um, I don't [00:04:00] know yet, actually, Um, and I think the, um and particularly I think maybe with this position, there's two. I predict there's kind of two kinds of homophobia that be the, um, people just not connected, not approaching, not connecting. Um, because they'd be seeing me as, um, just not relatable because they have that homophobia. [00:04:30] And so that's not something I'm going to be able to know about. Um, unless I hear it second hand from other people when I've broken through that, um, so I suspect there is an element of that. Maybe, um, but I haven't seen it directly because you don't see that directly. And then the more obvious direct stuff I haven't experienced yet and I expect is more. And it's I think I'm likely to come out against because [00:05:00] I I'm a lesbian without Children without partner. So I think I'm probably there is the potential to get better attack, particularly when I've got the women's portfolio or talking about Children. Um, but yeah, um, have there been any positive experiences that have come from you being queer and out in Parliament? Um, well, from my perspective, Yeah, a lot. Because I get to, um I get to talk about, [00:05:30] um, issues. And, you know, there was a national party MP who, um, is been approached by somebody in his community who's wanting kind of action around trans issues. And he was saying, like he recognised. He probably wasn't the person to do that to be able to do that, But he referred her to me so that we can work together and do that. And that's how fantastic is that. I just think that's really exciting. [00:06:00] And also just, um, to be queer in Parliament and be able to, you know, have that awareness to look for what it will mean for our communities when we're looking at, um, you know, identity legislation as an example and that I can add that to, uh, you know, the debates in parliament that that feels worth well to me. Um, do you know of any not out queer MP S? [00:06:30] I'm not asking you to help. Well, well, there's lots of rumours. And can you Can you think of any reasons why anyone would not want to disclose? Um, I guess historical also, um, I can see if a party doesn't have a human rights portfolio. If a party, um, still or doesn't have a human rights platform, then it's still [00:07:00] all about contesting, um, these ideas rather than, um, you know, like we see in the two major parties as an example and their position around marriage equality, you know that there's there's not a fundamental platform. So therefore, if you're out in those parties, you're aligning yourself with a group within the party and and not aligning yourself with others clearly so [00:07:30] I could see if somebody was in a particular camp that was conservative or, you know, the numbers didn't stack up for them. It seems really sad, and I I'm not sure how people do it, but I can see why. And are you glad you came out? Well, I guess it it would be too weird to me not to, you know, like that would be really strange, [00:08:00] because it's, you know, part of what I want to do. And it's part of who I am, and I've I've lived in places before where I haven't been out. And that's it's a surreal experience, I think. Yeah. Um, do you think that queer people are underrepresented in Parliament in in New Zealand as well? Um, well, I would like to see, um, more trans people and in our parliament, Um, and I haven't actually [00:08:30] done the figures about whether we're because it's It's nice to see that at the moment at least, you know that we've got the Rainbow Caucus across labour and the greens and that we're able to because it's not just about the numbers. It's about the willingness to actually represent our communities. Um, and that feels quite good. But it's not across all the parties and ideally, that it should be. There should be, Yeah, what [00:09:00] do you think would have to change in New Zealand for that to occur? Um, I think it's, I mean by the change that we're seeing with the, um, marriage equality from seven years before civil unions debates. Um, I guess it is that sense of mainstreaming that, um, as much as I my personal and political values are that, um, being queer is a radical, and being out [00:09:30] is a way to challenge the, you know, status quo in the world and and make the world a better place. I guess I have to allow for some people being conservative, and being queer might be also positive, you know, but and that's about mainstreaming. So, yeah. Um, do you think it's more difficult to be in the underrepresented group that is queer people or the underrepresented group that is women? Mm. [00:10:00] Um, that's a really interesting question, I And to be honest, at the moment, I think Parliament is more antagonistic towards women. Why do you think that is? Um I think if you look at, um, part of the attacks against [00:10:30] Labour were around Helen Clark and this concept of nanny state, and that was a very gendered attack on the government that had a lot of support from the public. And, um, the power brokers within the government are all male, regardless of who's sitting on the front bench or the power brokers are male. And, um, I think they're quite so. It is a very [00:11:00] an increasingly masculine environment. And you know where rape jokes are made and people feel really comfortable that some people within parliament seem really comfortable with outright misogyny. Whereas even if we looked at the debate around, um, marriage, equality again, then that the extreme homophobia was couched as other people think this [00:11:30] which is a really fantastic progression, you know? But, um yeah, and I'm not quite sure I understand it. To be honest of why there's those seems to have been progress here and and regression here. What do you think would have to change in New Zealand for women to be equally represented in positions of power as men Do you think? Um, well, a huge number of things, actually, we have to address, [00:12:00] um, the levels of domestic violence in the country. We would have to, um sheer, um, unpaid labour. Equally. Women would have to be, you know, enabled to make, um, choices around parenting and paid work. Um, we would need to, um, actually have honest conversations and be willing to shift cultural representations of women. [00:12:30] Um, you know, just simple things like that. And you think that's a harder task than shifting? Um, people's views or perceptions of queer people? Um, no. And it's interesting because I and I haven't actually thought through these questions before about looking at that comparison and because I also see a lot of homophobia as gender based. It's around gender conformity. [00:13:00] If you look at you know, a lot of, um, the verbal attacks of, um, around, um, homophobic bullying of men. It's around non conformity to the the male stereotype. So and similarly for women, I think a lot of the kind of lesbian, um, abuse comes in when women are seen not to be, um, ascribed being, you know, [00:13:30] acting in a gender appropriate way. So I'm not quite sure, actually, how we have managed to make seem to have made progress. And yet the gender role seemed to be more entrenched than ever. Um, so what do you think about the wording on the Human Rights Act when it comes to gender discrimination? Um, we need I think that's one of the things I'm looking at is actually, um, because it's very specific. It's, [00:14:00] um and we've the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women. The committee that oversees that which New Zealand is a signatory to um, has been raising issues in terms of our Human Rights Act with us for a while as well as, um, the fact that our Bill of Rights Act doesn't have primacy in our law so that, you know, we've got this bill of rights, but actually, we can overrule it pretty much any time we want in legislation, which we seem to be doing increasingly. [00:14:30] So, um, I think we need to broaden make gender a basis of, um, for nondiscrimination because it's not at the moment. Yeah. Um, so, uh, you said before the civil union versus marriage equality debate just for the record, where do you stand on that? Um well, the greens, it's a platform for us to support marriage equality and that it's, you know, it's a human rights equality under the law issue for us and, [00:15:00] uh, adoption. Um, that's and Kevin, I'm sure spoke more about this, that he's developing a member's bill, um, to go on to the ballot. I It's for me. I I'm not even comfortable having the conversation about queer adoption personally, um, outside of the context of needing to completely reform an adoption law because it's antiquated and treats Children as chattels. And that's not something I want any part of. Um [00:15:30] and at the same time want all of my friends who are queer parents to be able to, um, have their role as parents acknowledged properly. Yeah. So what kind of support do you get from the queer community? Um, how in, um, the lead up to the election. My friends organised a, um, pink [00:16:00] and green cabaret fundraiser for me, which was, you know, drag queens and kings and songs and artists. And it was I mean, like, it was so fantastic. It was, you know, it was the best thing ever. Really. Um, and just, um when I guess people being or [00:16:30] kind of just that feedback or being able to go to things and feel, um as if I'm part of because, you know, the weird thing of parliament is it feels like and there's a real and general public of politicians. We all slag them off, and it's politicians as others. So the community the most support is to feel like I'm just part of the community. And, um So who are your queer heroes? Like queer heroes? Um Hm. [00:17:00] By just stay politicians or not. Either way, um hm. Probably wouldn't be politicians generally, um I think Georgina Baer was is, um, Elizabeth Kelly I think she's doing She's just been so, so solid in the community. She's, um, doing great work around and [00:17:30] re uncovering the history, um, in New Zealand that I just think is really important. Um, there there's so many people doing so many amazing things. Yeah. And, um, yeah, how do you cope with some of the anti homosexual and and anti queer statements that happen in the debating chamber? Um, I guess it's in. [00:18:00] I guess it is. In that context of some days, I it just completely washes over me. And I'm just like hm, yeah, I'll do my work on my iPad and tune in when, um when I need to. And then there are other days where, um and this is, I guess, more around some of the when the because I Sorry again? I'm waffling. Um, there's [00:18:30] the like Those one off kind of statements to me are part of the game that people feel like they're playing, and that doesn't that stuff doesn't feel real to me, actually. And so I find that quite easy to dismiss when what I find harder is the substantive issues around. Um, you know, whether it be welfare reform, which isn't around homophobia, but or the, um, dismissal [00:19:00] by the Minister of Corrections around safety of trans, um, prisoners, Um, and that that stuff I find much harder because, um, it's actually about people's lives. And it's not a game. And yeah, and, uh, do you have any thoughts on how we can lessen bullying and suicide rates in queer use? Um, [00:19:30] I think we do. I mean, actually, you know Murray Richards report, um, that Kevin sponsored and the last term of parliament has given us some pretty good directions in terms of what needs to happen in schools. What sort of, um, I guess it's around having some of the alliances in school being kind of, um more proactive around visibility, um, [00:20:00] and anti-bullying processes and making sure that, um actually, that's that we specify. And we're clear around that, you know, that we've seen and we're looking at doing, um, Kevin and I at the moment with auditing schools because, um, auditing Eros reports of schools because schools are required to have, um, policies, and they probably [00:20:30] do, but it doesn't mean anyone knows they're there. Um, so we're looking. I guess it's Yeah, There's a whole lot of things that can be done within school environments, and wider than that, I think we need to do more work around, um, promoting diversity. And what about in terms of education and and health classes in school? Do you think that's something that that we need to change? I would imagine. I'm not sure, actually. What's going on in them [00:21:00] at the moment, do you? What's are they completely heteros? Yeah, Well, yeah, that that would be a good place to start. And And, I mean, that's when I was working in youth health. Like some schools, like, I do think the government does need to get more active. And some schools We weren't allowed into the school because we promoted a service that was confidential, and that was enough [00:21:30] to get us banned from speaking at a school because they had so much fear around, you know, young people's behaviour. It wasn't even, you know, there was no consciousness of the young people's safety in that model at all. So what can the queer community do to support queer politicians? Um, I guess Engage. [00:22:00] Engage in politics, and I understand why people don't. Um And in some ways, you know, we do supporting politicians as as a great is a good thing, but equally, you know, like there are a lot of people doing really important jobs as well who need support. And, um, I think, [00:22:30] but I think the shared I don't think we should have support in ourselves. Actually, I'd go back to that just because we we and we're in parliament. I think we should be supported for doing, um, the things that need to be done. Yeah. And, um, what do you think we can do to encourage young people to be interested in politics? Well, I'd be interested in your view on that more actually like because for me, this is I can It's, um [00:23:00] some of the conversations I've had with young people have blown my mind, and I found incredibly inspiring about what they see as the gap between what's important to them and what they hear coming out of parliament. Or, you know, being translated by the media as coming out of parliament. And what what's happening here and that there's this massive gap. What? What is in that gap. Well, some of the things they were talking to some, and this was kind of more disenfranchised young people, but was like, um [00:23:30] kind of, you know, just this perception of fairness and their world view just being a really different world view, like, um, some young Maori talking about, you know, And, um and really just saying they weren't hearing any conversations in Parliament that reflected that kind of world view. And I was just, like, wonder what that would look like, You know, And some of the conversations I hear from young people around, um, just [00:24:00] gender diversity and just a real really, I think exciting radicalism that, you know, parliaments just nowhere near those conversations, really. And but it would be exciting to think about ways we can bridge that gap, because otherwise, you know, Parliament's going to become this irrelevant fringe institution that, [00:24:30] you know, makes people's lives harder because people don't understand what people's actual lives are like. And so you think that's the direction Parliament should be going in a more radical? Well, it's not necessarily even parliament because I don't think you know the young people I talk to are necessarily representative of all young people. Um, but it's about making sure that that those views are being heard like that. There's a place in parliament [00:25:00] for people's views to be reflected and contested, you know, because I do get you know, that there's a whole bunch of happily conservative, you know, or but, you know, whatever young people and people who also aren't engaged, but it's we've got to bridge that gap somehow.

IRN: 614
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_politicians_kevin_hague.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004051
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089345
TITLE: Kevin Hague - Rainbow Politicians
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Kevin Hague
INTERVIEWER: Jo Jackson / Grizz
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Barack Obama; Charles Chauvel; Chris Carter; Chris Finlayson; Civil Union Act (2004); Fran Wilde; Grant Robertson; Green Party; Greymouth; HIV / AIDS; Harvey Milk; Human Rights Act (1993); Jan Logie; John Key; Katherine O'Regan; Kevin Hague; LegaliseLove (Wellington); Louisa Wall; Marilyn Waring; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Parliament buildings; Queer Politicians; Tim Barnett; West Coast; adoption; civil unions; discrimination; gay; gender identity; homophobia; human rights; marriage equality; parenting; politics; profile; public figure; relationships; transgender; youth
DATE: 17 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Kevin Hague from the Green Party talks to Jo Jackson about what it's like to be a Member of Parliament.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How long have you been an MP? Since 2008. So now very nearly four years at this point. And have you been out as queer that whole time? When? Yeah, When you started your job. Currently, did you come out or was it just sort of assume knowledge as it were? Well, I mean, I have been sort of out for a long time. So I, I guess there there was a level [00:00:30] of assumed knowledge. You know, I used to be the director of the AIDS Foundation. So, uh, I used to be a regular media commentator on sort of gay issues. So I guess, uh, I guess you know, there's a reason there was a reasonable knowledge that that I was gay, But I also spoke about being gay in my maiden speech. So, um, so I don't think anyone at any point would have been confused or or not known. Um, was anyone surprised after you [00:01:00] spoke about being gay in your maiden speech? Oh, well, not that they told me or showed me so But as I say II, I suspect that people who had been involved in political life in New Zealand for a while, um, would have known in any case, but but, uh, I, I guess. I guess younger or newer, newer MP S who are kind of new to politics may not have known. So since being in the public eye has your private life had to change at all? [00:01:30] Um, I wouldn't say it's changed, but certainly, I mean, because many of my roles have been in the public eye. So So it's it's a kind of, um, it's a a boundary that I that I've walked for quite a long time. Um and, uh, you know, I have made a point of, uh, talking in in quite quite general terms about my partner without [00:02:00] um giving, giving personal information about him, um, in the public domain. And, um, it's the same with, um, my son. I've got a a 22 year old son who's, um um who? You know, I. I don't think it's right to, um, to have in the public eye unless he chooses to be so. So I think it's important that for your for your for [00:02:30] your private life that people in your private life get to choose whether that whether they enter the public domain or not because you have a same partner. Currently, do you find yourself treated differently at official events or anything? Uh, no, actually, it's, um the I had, uh I mean, I think, yes, probably every queer person does, you know, lots, lots of experiences of of, um, you know, having to [00:03:00] correct people and correct assumptions and and, um, maybe different treatment at at, um, at sort of events that you go to. But in this role, that hasn't happened at all. I guess that's partly because parliament's been like, I'm not the first, you know, MP. So some people like, Well, I actually particularly people like Chris Carter. In fact, um, Tim Barnett, you know, actually, uh, played played a role in sort of breaking down [00:03:30] those barriers and probably preparing the institution for people like me. And have you, um, found yourself having to face any homophobia as a part of this job? Not really. I mean, um, we've got the marriage equality debate going on in New Zealand at the moment. Um, and, uh, certainly for the green party caucus. Uh, one of the things that we do is, uh, the the person who holds [00:04:00] a particular portfolio manages all of the correspondence that everyone receives about a about a about a particular topic that's in that portfolio. So one of my portfolios is rainbow issues. You know, he's got issues with their own boats to bring them to me. Um, and so all green Party MP are forwarding to me all of the email and letters and and other kind of communications that they receive about marriage equality. [00:04:30] And it's certainly true that a proportion of those are pretty homophobic. But it's it's, um it's not directed at me, particularly. It's a It's a kind of more generic thing that that that I could take on personally, but but, um, uh, I don't cool. Uh, you spoke before about, uh, previous queer PS. Um, do do you have any any, uh, queer heroes, as it were? [00:05:00] Oh, well, yeah. I mean, I. I mean, I do I mean, in in this I mean from parliamentary life. I mean, I think, um, the the people that I've mentioned Chris Carter and Tim Barnett certainly, um have been, um I mean, the very much forging the path for others. Marilyn Waring. Even though she She wasn't out while she was an MP, actually. Still, um, was an important voice and and has become a more important [00:05:30] voice, possibly outside of parliament. Um, so in terms of MP S, those people Fran Wild, of course, were, you know, for championing homosexual law reform, Um, and Catherine O'Regan, who is kind of a forgotten MP perhaps in in in this history, because it was Catherine who moved the, um, uh, the the changes to anti discrimination law that incorporated sexual orientation. And at the time I was working for the [00:06:00] AIDS Foundation. Um, kind of organising, um, the the campaign on out on the outside of parliament, so worked closely with her, and, um, she did a great job. I mean, I got lots of, you know, queer heroes outside of Parliament. Can you name some of them for me? Well, I mean, Harvey Milk is the obvious one, but he's everyone's now, so that's true. Um, do you think that your sexuality, [00:06:30] um, affected whether or not people voted for you? Um, yes. Uh, I mean, as a green MP, we we don't campaign to win electorates. We campaign in electorates, you know? So that we get to be on the on the stage at the meet the candidates meetings. But the message is usually, um uh, it's not your electorate vote that I'm after. I want your party vote. And [00:07:00] so so all green MP S are elected via the party list. So not none of us represents a particular electorate. But, um, that doesn't mean that we don't represent a particular constituency. And I'm certain that, um uh, that the Green Party has picked up a larger share of votes from the queer community. Um, because [00:07:30] I'm on the list. Um, so I think I think it's been a positive thing, you know, actually having, um, a gay man highly ranked on the list. And, of course, Jan Logie is now an MP. Also, So we've got a lesbian woman also, um, and so I mean, it's it's hard to quantify because the the, um, the market research companies that do the analysis tend not to to ask about sexual orientation in in [00:08:00] their surveys. But, um, we think Express magazine has run several polls Now that show us, um, it's something like 50% support amongst amongst the queer community. Um and, um I mean, we don't know how accurate that is, but that's at least strongly indicative of a very high level of support for which I'm really grateful and and proud of, actually, Yeah. So you get a lot of support from the queer community in terms [00:08:30] of voting. But what sort of support do you get in terms of on a personal level from the queer community? Um, II. I get a lot like people will come up to me, um, at events and kind of say, Oh, by the way, it's a fantastic job we're doing on marriage equality, for example. Or, um, in the another area that I've been working on quite strongly has been, um, the effect of homophobia [00:09:00] on queer youth and, uh, the importance of creating support of social environments and public policy. And so, you know, after after I give a speech about that, you know, I get lots of contact from people saying, Hey, that was fantastic. I really, really liked that. You said that I really like that you're there in parliament. So there's there's a lot of positive support there. I mean, I and I live on the west coast of the South Island. So I live in Greymouth, and, um, [00:09:30] a lot of people, when we moved there, kind of assumed that, um I mean, they thought it was totally baffling, because we we we were moving from Waiheke Island, where we lived before, and they thought that we were moving to this hostile redneck, homophobic community. And, um, that has totally not been our experience. You know, we've been, you know, completely out from day one. And it was really the only, um, [00:10:00] only good strategy for for anyone anywhere, um, and have not encountered in 10 years. We've lived on the West Coast, a single incident of homophobia, and it doesn't come up, um, a lot on the campaign trail, people, uh, people mostly are, um, interested in talking about other issues. Um, but it also hasn't come up as a negative. You know, there aren't people you know there aren't people who are saying, [00:10:30] Well, I'm not going to vote for you because, you know, some some homophobic remark or insult. So So I for me II, I think, um uh, it's just been entirely positive. Excellent. Um, so you talked before about, um Jan Logie now being a an MP. How many other queer politicians do you know of? Well, um, in within, within Labour. Of course. There's [00:11:00] Grant Robertson, Charles Marion Street and Louisa Wall. Um, Chris Fin is an out gay man in in national. Um, and, um, there are certainly, um uh, other queer MP S in the New Zealand Parliament. But they are not out. Um, can you try to imagine some reasons why they would not be out? Yeah, [00:11:30] I guess so. I mean, I think the the for for people in other parties, the path to parliament is is maybe a more conservative one than it is for the greens, you know? So, um so parties that have have more of a focus on winning electorates probably have assumptions about, um, you know, mainstream New Zealand voters that that are conservative. In fact, there's quite a lot of evidence that [00:12:00] that MP S and politicians are in general more conservative than the New Zealand public. Um and so? So there will be assumptions for for, um for for queer candidates that, in fact, that they have to, um keep that under wraps. Or that or that being an out, um, queer candidate would be a negative factor in trying to win an electorate seat. I'm I'm guessing that that's the thinking that goes on. And, [00:12:30] um and most MP S are uh uh, I was gonna say older. That's not quite right. But the the, um there aren't many young MP S. And, uh, and, uh, although I'm probably older than the average now, which is a bit of a worry. Um, but, um, and I think you know that that for older New Zealanders, there's probably more of a embedded [00:13:00] history and experience of homophobia or feeling that people needed to hide their sexual orientation to avoid homophobia. Um, so So there's there's probably a combination of factors like that, and you're glad you came out. Oh, yeah. Good. Um, so, uh, of course, you are part of the legalised love campaign. Um, so, yeah, you you support, uh, queer marriage over civil unions? Um, [00:13:30] yeah. I mean, I think civil unions were probably an important step forward. And, um but, uh, but I have always believed that that marriage equality was the was the goal that we should be seeking. Um, so currently in the Human Rights Act. Um, it is not. It is OK to discriminate against people on the grounds of gender identity. Well, [00:14:00] it isn't. Actually, it's the the um, but it's not explicit that it's illegal. The the the the law is actually quite well established that the, um the gender ground that that is in the act, um, includes gender identity. But the the the point that, um, transgender people and would make and I agree with them entirely is that, um, unless something [00:14:30] is specified explicitly, it doesn't. I'm sure it would provide some protection in the event that someone is discriminated against. So a transgender person loses their job. Um, they actually do have a have a recourse now, but it doesn't have the kind of signalling and educative effect um, that you also want the law to to achieve so part of having sexual orientation in the act, for example, is that it sends a very clear message [00:15:00] to employers and landlords and the providers of goods and services, et cetera, et cetera, that it's not OK to discriminate and to and to queer people, um, it sends the message that it's not, you know, that that we are full members of society. So the signalling effect of the law is incredibly important. And unless gender identity is is specified explicitly, um, the the act can't really do that. Um, because [00:15:30] people aren't going to, uh, read, read the act and and and understand immediately unless their lawyer is familiar with with all the case law. Um, that gender actually includes gender identity. So do you think that's something that needs to change on the act? Oh, yeah, it does. It does. Um, certainly it it I've been doing some thinking about what? My action programmers. If I, you know, if [00:16:00] I get into government, which certainly I hope won't be too far away. And, um, that's that's one of the changes that I would make. Um, what's your stance on queer adoption? Well, you, uh, listeners, um, may know are likely to know that this is an issue that I have been championing in the New Zealand parliament. Um, And actually, just as we as we speak within the next couple of [00:16:30] weeks, I will I will be, um, unveiling a a bill that completely overhauls adoption law. Um, and and in relation to surrogacy as well, so it sort of extends into that area too. And the the Louisa Wall's marriage equality bill will, in fact, probably, um, deal with [00:17:00] all of the all of the, uh, issues around same sex couples being, um, ineligible to adopt, which is the the fact in the current law with marriage equality going through, one of the things that will happen as a result of that is that, um, the the adoption law, which kind of specifies that couples should be, should be married. Um, will will extend to same sex [00:17:30] married couples. And there was a couple of years ago a court case, um, taken by, um, a de facto heterosexual couple. So So a couple, but who were not married and not living in the civil union? Um, and they won in in in court. Um, so, uh, so the the act, as it stands has already been extended to include a civil union and de facto heterosexual [00:18:00] couples. And again, when um, Bill goes through that adding in married, same sex couples will will roll out to civil unions and and de facto couples as well. So so that aspect of my my bill, probably by the time that it actually um is is debated in parliament won't be necessary. Um, although it will still be, it will still be valuable [00:18:30] to to have that the nondiscriminatory principle enshrined in the written down law, as opposed to relying on case law. Um, but the the fundamental problem with the adoption act is is that its legislation, like the marriage act, in fact from 1955 which means that the social attitudes and values from 1955 are fossilised in the law, Um, and [00:19:00] fundamental to adoption is what what what is adoption about? And I would say that my description of the current law is that it deals with the child as if the child were a chattel, you know, AAA piece of property and that the adoption process is like a property transaction. Now I think that's absolutely the the polar reverse of how it should be that actually, I believe [00:19:30] the interest of the child should be utterly central to all of the decisions that are made, um, about that child's parenting arrangements. And so that's the principle that that underpins the the the overhaul of the law that that I Um And you said just before, uh, when lewis Walls Bill will pass. Do you think that's something that will definitely happen? Yeah. II, I think unless there's I don't know, a meteorite striking striking Wellington in the next, [00:20:00] um, in within the next year. I I think we will. I think the law will will pass, um, in the first half of 2013, Um, the first reading vote at the time that we were recording last. The first reading vote passed, uh, 80 to 40 which is a much more emphatic result than most people were expecting. And, um oh, if I could go out on a limb now [00:20:30] and say my prediction is that the eventual margin will be bigger than that, but we'll actually get more votes by the third reading than than the 80 that we have now. So, um, so I'm I'm pretty confident as you as you can tell, um, but I I've been working with Lesa very closely, so she's doing a lot of the fronting of the campaign. I I've been doing a lot of the the backroom organising. So, in my very strong [00:21:00] senses is that MP S generally um believe that this is a law that should be passed. And I got to say I'm grateful to the prime minister, you know, to and to Barack Obama. Because without without Obama, I'm sure the prime minister wouldn't have said anything but the prime minister. The prime minister's change of heart on the issue and then subsequent statements that actually have have strengthened and strengthened his position further, um, have been very useful [00:21:30] because they've they've given, you know, the green light to members of his caucus that that, um, very likely would have voted against this, Um, without his support for it. Um, do you think your adoption bill will be as well received as the look I? I think it will. I mean, it's unusual for members, Bill, because it's it's very big, you know, to do a comprehensive overhaul of of the law, um, is a big task, and members bills usually only tackle [00:22:00] 11 issue and do it quite simply, this is a bill that's, you know, 30 pages long. Um, but what I would say having been working on this issue for well, the best part of four years, um is that there is an overall understanding by members of parliament that the existing adoption law is utterly obsolete, you know, and needs to be changed. [00:22:30] Um, but but, uh, but a number of governments, um, I guess most recent, most recently this government. But before then, the you know, the Labour government that was in power for nine years, um, had the chance to do something about about changing that law and and chose not to, um So we've got this situation of a growing problem and MP [00:23:00] S are generally aware of that. Um I think they will see that the overhaul of the law that we've written, um, is a sensible one. And so I think there's good support for it. And I think I think the issue in adoption that has probably stopped governments from tackling it in the past has been around adoption by same sex couples where they've been scared to move because they feared that the public wasn't ready for it or something like that. Um, and I think Lewis's [00:23:30] bill will very much have paved the way for that. I think by the time that, um, my my bill is being debated. The fact that Lewis's bill has gone before and dealt with the same sex couples issue to a very large extent. Anyway, um, I think will mean that that my bill becomes effectively pretty non controversial and, you know a government might pick it up, and that would be quite a sensible thing because they're they're in a better position to manage [00:24:00] it through the through the house than I am.

IRN: 607
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/remembering_bruce_burnett.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004050
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089344
TITLE: Remembering Bruce Burnett
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Kate Leslie
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; AIDS Support Network; AIDS roadshow; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Bruce Burnett; Bruce Burnett Clinic (Auckland); HIV / AIDS; Kate Leslie; NZAF Burnett Centre; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); San Francisco; Shanti Project; Simon Rosser; United States of America; Warkworth; activism; community; death; education; health; health system; history; legacy; politics; sex; support
DATE: 12 October 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Warkworth, Warkworth, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Kate Leslie remembers Bruce Burnett - an early AIDS educator and activist in New Zealand.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi, I'm Kate. Lesley. I'm going to tell you about Bruce Burnett. Um, in 1984 I was the social work manager at Auckland Hospital. Bruce had returned from San Francisco in 1983 knowing that he had HIV and he was unwell and depressed and most un happy. And it was not until 84 [00:00:30] that he kind of resurfaced and renewed and, um, was imbued with, uh, zeal to do something about HIV A. I DS in New Zealand. I first met him in August of 84 when he came to the, um STD department to a monthly meeting there. And, uh, there were clinicians there, mainly theologians and the infectious diseases clinicians. And [00:01:00] he came to talk to us about HIV a ID and his experience in San Francisco and with the project in the urgency for, um, uh, gathering information in presenting it, uh, to the gay community. And after that meeting, uh, we we stayed on and chatted to one another, and, uh, Bruce said, Well, I know all about, [00:01:30] um, HIV and AIDS in the programme. And you seem to know about the health system and, uh, counselling, uh, here within that, uh, could we work together? That would be a good idea that seemed appealing and interesting. And we did. From the end, we spent time together looking at what what was needed and what Bruce wanted to do. And, [00:02:00] um, the social work department was in what had been, um, the nurses' home at Auckland Hospital. Uh, was a large, large old brick building with individual offices that had been people's bedrooms and a huge room at the end, which had been the common room. And so I made that available, um, for, uh, gatherings. And, um, before that, Bruce set up a, uh, a training [00:02:30] session, which I said, Oh, good, I'll, I'll come to that and there was silence and and said, Well, not sort of the men who were interested. And I said, Oh, that's all right. Never mind, uh, and then said, Well, perhaps you could come on the Saturday uh, which I did. And then there was an agreement that that I seemed an all right person and I could stay, and from then on, we we adapted the shanty programme [00:03:00] with the aid of um, Ray Taylor and Simon Rosser in an increasing band of people training, working, learning to be there to support people with HIV aids. Can you describe what the the shanty programme is? Was It was a counselling and support programme that they'd come by in San Francisco, where they must have been inundated with people. And, of course, without our support services here for for ill people, so [00:03:30] they would have been reliant on, um on volunteers to, um do shopping, um, support people. I mean, you look at health costs there. People wouldn't have been able to have private health care Will do. So I imagine they were reliant on their friends to, um uh to support and and sustain them. Um, and of course there was, you know, many people, many people, [00:04:00] ill and dying. Um, and that's what, um, Bruce and Ray and others had come back to New Zealand with that message that we we needed to adapt. Bruce's Bruce's background was he had been the pastry chef and he'd set up, um, a number of places in Auckland just as which was very famous in Auckland and others. Um and, um later, one of the people used to say to me, You know, How do we And [00:04:30] I said, Bruce does the cooking and I eat it. He's a wonderful cook, but he he, uh he travelled. Um, he travelled about talking and engaging the gay community in in what was necessary to to preserve and save their health. Um, the Department of Health were wise in, um, making a PE P appointment and giving him a job as an age liaison [00:05:00] officer and giving him a space in, um, in Auckland, uh, to do that, which gave him an income and enabled him to, um uh to carry on there and not be reliant on the the gay community. But the gay community were wonderful. They had put money in and enabled us to make the the early pamphlets of the teddy bears and the traffic lights to get the information out. Um, [00:05:30] to the gay community, both an urgency about that. That that people desperately needed to know what was safe sex and what wasn't from my background. I was able to contribute. Well, if we're going to do this, we have to do it properly. And we have to do this in words of one syllable that people understand. I had seen too much in the health system. Where where clinicians gave [00:06:00] people information about, uh, medicines, treatments in medical with some Latin phrases and other language. And the people smiled and said, thank you and took whatever it was they were being given. And they went away having not understood a word and at times quite misused, Uh, what they'd been given. This was very evidence in contraception when people came back [00:06:30] pregnant and they didn't want to be. But they hadn't understood at all how they were to take, uh, these tablets. So I said, if we're going to do this, um, with the beers and particularly with the traffic lights, we need to be very plain and use language that people are no doubt about. This is unsafe sex. Do not do this. This is safe sex. Change your ways and do that. Bruce continued, um, from [00:07:00] his position there to, um to speak on radio and television to speak to groups. He was a very charismatic, engaging, uh, delightful man. And, um, people warmed to him, uh, but engaged, uh, supported his courage in being out and speaking about himself and issues, and they they admired [00:07:30] his bravery. So a whole lot of people who might have been otherwise, uh, standoffish and not supportive here Bruce was able to knit in by virtue of his personality and his commitment, Um, commitment to the work, I guess at this stage as well that, uh, you know, you're talking 1984. So it was still illegal. Homosexual law reform hadn't happened. And was Bruce also out in terms of [00:08:00] having a i DS or HIV HIV? Yes, he was. He was playing about that. He was playing about his his, um, sexual orientation. And as I say people, people warmed and admired that that he was an he was an honest person And waging and engaging people and giving people people had, you know, the media information about HIV aids. And, um, one of Bruce's major things was the terror management. Because [00:08:30] people were just so frightened and had all sorts of fears and worries and bogey and extraordinary things. And what was our task was to get the facts clearly and present them in a way that we could say No, this is people had notions, uh, that the kind of that HIV was floating through the air or you were going to catch [00:09:00] it from cups and saucers or shaking hands or the swimming pool or, um, food, whatever. And we needed to one by one dispel all these things. And Bruce was fy uh, good and plain at doing that and travelling around and talking to gay men and encouraging them to to change their behaviour. But of course, bit by bit, uh, I mean, the immense efforts he made told on his [00:09:30] his health. And he had, um he had been, uh, engaging with the Department of Health and lobbying the government and aware that if we were to continue here, we needed an organisation and we needed the government to come on board, um, and get funding so that we could do things other than by the the, uh, goodness of heart of the gay community in contributing. So the health department gave money, and we made [00:10:00] this initial, um, campaign that that was very accurate, scientifically. But Bruce wanted to engage with with whoever was there that would listen, um, as well as the gay community, because we needed the wider the wider community netted in as well. If we were to, um, combat, um HIV aids. And at that time, um, homosexuality was still, um, illegal. So for many [00:10:30] people, uh, to get even to get the information we were aware, uh, was a danger to them. And which is why we pressed for the the the public information campaign that went to newspapers so that everyone could be seen to be reading this rather than someone picking up a brochure and other people saying, why? Why would you have been interested in, um in that, uh, which [00:11:00] may have impinged on their relationship or their their job or their status in society. So our our aim, until we eventually got the law reform was was to preserve people's, uh, privacy and, uh, and dignity. And, uh, Bruce was out at the front there, Uh, not doing any of those things and calling upon people to, uh, to people [00:11:30] to rally here. And how did how did Bruce interact with the medical profession? How did they see him? Oh, they they he he was engaging and charming, but he was also brave, and they appreciated that they also appreciated that he was this massive scourge from abroad. Um, and when we looked at the numbers that were projected, uh, this would have been a huge cost to the public [00:12:00] health, um, budget. And so they were supportive. Uh, if if Bruce, with his efforts could bring about some changes could, um um, and some assistance at the education campaign could bring about helping people make changes in their behaviour. Then all of that would reduce the the incident in New Zealand and the impact on the on the health costs. And that's not [00:12:30] just penny per budget. That meant that there was enough resource to go around to actually care adequately for people, uh, both in the hospital setting if they needed or, um, in the community, if they needed support there. Um, so any inroads we were able to make in, um, in reducing the incidents where we all to the good for us all, it must have taken a huge toll on Bruce. I'm just thinking in in [00:13:00] kind of 84. 80 in the early part of 85 where you know, for anyone to be establishing a network, a nationwide network of people that would voluntarily support and educate about HIV aids. Uh, it must have taken a huge toll on him. Yes, yes, it did. And he put so much energy into that. And and I think by his example, a whole range of people from every walk of life [00:13:30] and occupation were encourage driven Sam to to make a contribution. Um, and that was largely down to him. Um, some people, I'm sure were surprised that they ended up, uh, doing this. This was right out of their comfort zone, but But he was this brave person saying, uh, come on. You all need to be part of this. We need We will need a whole [00:14:00] lot of people to help. We need people to educate. You all need to do a piece here to to help. Don't leave it to Don't leave it to the medical profession. Don't leave it to a few. We need to do this. The gay community needs to do this. We need to engage other people and tell them it's it's safe to be involved here and to do. And he was quite brilliant at doing that. And, uh, a support [00:14:30] network and eventually the foundation, a testimony to that, you know, here was someone who gave the all, uh, to the end of their life to, uh, to fight to further the cause and to work for, um, for their lifestyle. But but for public health, for safety, like like this is safe sex. Do these behaviours don't do Do these change, change your ways. Stay alive. [00:15:00] Because at that point in time, there were no, there was no hope There were no medications. Uh, this was, uh if you had HIV and you were going to get AIDS, then then you were going to die. Um, as many young men did, and as Bruce, um, did many of those young men died at, you know, around 30. Um, but they were They were pretty dark in sad and challenging times. [00:15:30] Yes. And in socially, uh, really tragic times as well. I can, um I can think of Bruce and I being in one funeral. Where was a young person had died? And, uh, the whole funeral was addressed to Auntie and the said loss of her nephew. And there was sitting the partner of 15 20 years, um, totally ignored, Never once mentioned, never acknowledged. And in so wrong [00:16:00] and so awful and so bruising that this was with galvanising ourselves a bit more to, uh to, uh we have to do better than this. We have to. We have to make this. We have to get law changes. And we have to make this safe for people to stand up and own one another end end, be proud of who they are and, uh, and support one another in in death, if that's where it's leading. [00:16:30] Bruce passed away in the on the first of June 1985. Yeah. How did that affect you? Oh, devastating. Devastating. That was a loss of a really important person in my life. And, um, arranging. Bruce's funeral was most interesting because his family were were conservative people and they they didn't beyond Bruce. They didn't know anything of the gay community. And so they they thought they'd be to have a private, [00:17:00] um, funeral. I did explain that. I thought then mhm there would need to be another one, because the gay community wanted all to come together to honour him for what he had done. And so eventually the family thought about that and said, No, no, they needed just to be one. and we heard that that was a huge, uh, farewell and Thanksgiving. And the family after that said how wonderful it was [00:17:30] to meet all those. All those men that they had not realised were were out there and were so ordinary and, uh, were so much part of their lives, probably that they hadn't known about or seen or thought of. And and Bruce said he'd led the way in in making that possible, Uh, and with the law of reform, for people to be out in visible and to be [00:18:00] safe. Uh, and that was his That was his gift. He also drove you in a direction that maybe you wouldn't have gone there. Was I heavily going along in my social work department and my life took off in a totally other direction. And what began is yes, we'll do a bit of alteration of this, and we'll do a bit of counselling, kind of grew like the snowball rolling down the hill and, uh, became more and more. And then, uh, [00:18:30] the the speaking in support of Bruce and the the training and then when he could see that, uh, he was not going to be able to sustain this. He was becoming ill to say, Uh, here we are. We've got this far You need to hold onto the public health. See that this is not syphoned off by people who think, Oh, this is a good bandwagon. Let's get on it. Um, and hold onto this and hold on to everyone else and, [00:19:00] um, keep keep this going and the focus. And until we've, um, made some success in the diminish of HIV aids in New Zealand and, uh, I was proud and pleased to do that on his behalf, but certainly I did my life. And so this is where the New Zealand A foundation was born. Yes. Came about in, uh, in 1986. And, um, I was the [00:19:30] first chair of that and stayed there until 1988. When when there were enough, uh, great people around, Um, and we had gained enough strength, and, um, I passed on the banner and, uh, and it's gone from strength to strength since, and it must have been really neat to see that, actually, the the first AIDS clinic in New Zealand. Yes, that we that we set up the the Auckland Hospital were very supportive, Doctor Lesley [00:20:00] Honeyman, the medical superintendent. Chief, Um, and Murphy, who had been the, um, me in chief and then, um uh, one of the management of the board. Very supportive and and helpful. And, um, Honeyman had given, um, an old board building in Kitchener Street for the use of the AIDS network, um, to meet and to see people and then said that the Auckland hospital would have find a space for us [00:20:30] to make a clinic because we could see that, um, it couldn't be on the lines of the usual, uh, outpatient clinic where you sat and Siri Rose and someone came and called out you name in a loud voice. No one was going to come. Uh, so we we had some challenging times to find a space. Um uh, John Hughes, notable decorator, uh, devised the spaces and [00:21:00] decorated it wonderfully. And, uh, Michael Bassett opened that clinic, and we were able to call it the the Bruce Burnet Clinic. And we were able to assure people, uh, of their anonymity and their privacy, uh, so that it was safe for people to come and get tested because what we wanted was was for people to come and get tested, and that was a pretty scary proposition. [00:21:30] Uh, then seeing there were no medications and no vaccines or anything, and and this was a this was a dire prognosis. And and we wanted to be sure that we had an accurate test and that we were providing, uh, prior to post counselling of a very high standard and people's privacy, uh, was [00:22:00] protected. They could come and go from the building in absolute discretion, and they would be given sufficient counselling to support them and to provide, uh, whatever resources they they needed. Um uh, whatever diagnosis that they got from Nick. So we were very proud of it. Yeah, and Bruce would have been proud. And there he is, on the wall there.

IRN: 605
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/andreas_derleth_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004049
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089343
TITLE: Andreas Derleth - Mr Gay World
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Andreas Derleth
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Andreas Derleth; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Germany; Johannesburg; Mr Gay New Zealand; Mr Gay World; South Africa; coming out; community; depression; education; family; friends; growing up; health; human rights; identity; parents; profile; relationships; religion; social; support; travel; volunteer
DATE: 27 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um my name is Andy. As I said, I'm 33 years old right now. I'm originally from Germany. I was born in a very small town called Has I grew up there. And then later on, um, did the military service in Germany the compulsory one. And, um, also was part of a fire brigade in my hometown for a voluntary one. For some time I was an altar boy, um, grew up in a Catholic environment. And, um yeah, later on, I started in a different um, city. [00:00:30] Then I started working in a, which is near Nunberg, and as a regional manager for Aldi Stores later on did the same thing. Same job in the UK in Bournemouth and in Southampton for six months each. And then I decided, Oh, I wanted to see something different and came to New Zealand in 2008 in February. And, um yeah, ever since stayed here. I initially only wanted to stay on a working holiday permit, um, for one year, but, um yeah, As life plays out, I ran into the right man [00:01:00] and fell in love with the country and still here. Four years, 4. 5 years down the track. When did you realise you were going? I realised when I was gay when I was about 12, 13 years old. However, I didn't realise that what I felt was called gay. I noticed that I found men more attractive than women, but that what I was feeling was called gay as something I only realised about three or four years later because it was just, um, a topic not being talked about at all. So I didn't know anything about sex, gay life [00:01:30] or any of that. I discovered all myself. Eventually, If you didn't hear or see about gay life, how did you think you were? I mean, was that confusing to you? Or was that Yes, of course. It was confusing. And once I realised that, um, I like men and that being part of the Catholic Church, I knew it was seen as wrong there. So it was, um, of course, very hard for me. And, um, I did hide it for a long time, and eventually when I was about 22 [00:02:00] 23 came to terms with it. And this is then when I also had my first laugh. And, um yeah, eventually started coming out step after step. So how did you come to terms with it? It was a process. Really? Um, my goal was once I'm out of my little hometown. I thought I'm gonna study. I'm going to be in a bigger town, and I can start, um, meeting other gay people and, um, start living my life. However, um, one thing played on the I was, um, studying chemical engineering, which [00:02:30] was quite hard, which took pretty much all of my time. And so I didn't really have time to start a gay life or find gay friends or find new friends. Um, and that had an impact on my studies, so I didn't really, um I wasn't able to put everything in it. I was very unhappy. I was depressed. And so the study started to fail, and I kind of didn't achieve any of the two things I wanted to achieve in this bigger city which was studying and, you know, living a gay life, starting starting to be the person [00:03:00] who I am. And, um So I reached almost a breaking point at which I then said, OK, I either have to end this, or I have to, um, accept who I am. And this is when everything got better. After I finally accepted, I asked a friend, um, a gay friend, somebody I knew, but he didn't know that I was gay and talked to him. And from there, it all got better. How was it coming up? So So your family or your friends? It was, in most cases, [00:03:30] better than I anticipated. Um, my mom took a bit of time because, um, she's very Catholic and a bit set in her ways and beliefs with my father. It was the easier part. I thought it would be the harder one. but he adapts his thoughts and his, um, behaviours and his mindset when he gets new information when he, um, looks into a situation. And so, um, it was [00:04:00] very moving when he found out my mom actually told him after, I kind of had to tell her there was no way out. There was no way out situation. And, um So when he came home from work in the evening, um, he just said to me, um, hey, why didn't you tell me earlier? Um you're always gonna be my son. And I'm always gonna love you. And I was blown away by that because I was really scared. He was a Catholic man. Um, you have? Yeah, but as I said, he he just changes his mind when he comes across new information [00:04:30] and does the right thing. So what was the situation that you couldn't get out of? Ah, what a funny story. Um, I It was about five months after I told this first person that I was gay and I I met my first, um, two friends, um, gay friends. And then I was hanging out, um, with them and eventually at a, um, at a lake, I met my first partner. We've been together for months. Then I was in hospital. I had my tonsils [00:05:00] removed and I was really feeling bad. And I was just the first day at home, still recovering. He called me. He said, I'm a day off. Um, he was a chef and said, Oh, just come to my place. I look after you, and, um So I did this, um, and I was in really bad shape. So when I returned a day later, my mom kind of was waiting for me behind the door and crying, and she said, I know something's wrong with you, and it must be Dr So I cut it or something. And, um, yeah, so I told her I showed her a black and white picture of my boyfriend [00:05:30] and said, Oh, that's my boyfriend. However, in German, the word boyfriend and friend is the same. So she didn't realise at all what I was trying to tell her until I made it quite clear. And, um then she was, on the one hand, a bit relieved. On the other hand, she couldn't really handle it because that was a completely new thing for her. But yeah, um, she, um, went to my father's workplace right away, told him, and then the other situation I just described unfolded in the evening. So it was, um, a moving story. My younger brother listened at the door while I was, um, telling [00:06:00] my mom. So that was, um, done as well. And I told my older brother briefly after how to sort of fit those relationships. Um, with my mom and my older brother initially thought I do need help and it can be fixed. And my younger brother and my father were OK with it right away. Um, it was a bit of a process for my mom and my older brother, but now they are OK with it as well. And, um, they did a lot of research and reading and a lot of conversation, and then they kind of understood that [00:06:30] it is not a choice and that it's nothing bad and nothing wrong with me. I just, um, love a man. What about, uh, coming out to your friends was also better than expected. I think I, um, found really, really good friends, and I didn't really lose any friends. I think I was lucky in that context. But this is because I started selecting the right people as friends. Um, quite early on in my life, Usually, when you're young, you are friends with the people who are either in your [00:07:00] neighbourhood, your school or you hang out with in clubs. Um, but yeah, I. I didn't have too many friends when I was younger for two reasons. First, um, I was already pretty selective then and secondly, um, I think I was just lacking the self confidence of building up friendships because I knew I was different but couldn't handle it. Um, so the little friends I had were mostly from the Catholic church as well. From older boys. I met fellow other older boys. Not that I was playing with them or anything, but, um, we just shared the same basic values. And, [00:07:30] um, yeah, that build strong friendships which are still, um, alive now that I've been here in New Zealand for 4. 5 5 years. When I was back a couple of weeks ago, we just caught up, and it was just like, I haven't been away at all. What are the basic values that you value in a friendship? Um, first and foremost, it's reliability. Um, do as you say and say, as you do. Um, I think this is the base on what you can build, and then it's trust as well. Um, I do value trust a lot, um, and [00:08:00] being there for each other, wanting the best for each other. I'd say these three things. So why did you choose New Zealand? A good question. Um, after, um, a very stressful year in England in my job. I decided I need a break. I need something else. Um Wanted to see more of the world instead of going back to Germany. And I wanted it to be an English speaking country because it was the only other language I spoke apart from German. I thought about the United States then but didn't [00:08:30] quite feel right. Nice for holiday destination. But yeah, it wasn't wasn't the right thing for me. And Australia seemed a bit too hot. I don't like the heat too much, So I was pretty much left with a choice between New Zealand and Canada, and both rank very, very high. Um, but New Zealand kind of made it. It seemed more exotic. It has a very, very good reputation in Germany as a holiday destination as a great place. Um, and it looked great in a lot of ranks, so I just don't give it a go. [00:09:00] So you arrived here and and then found your partner. Yeah, that's right. Um, I ran into him right away. You could say I was looking on, um, trade me and on gay Romeo for, um, a place to stay on Gay Romeo. You can put your little bed and breakfast tumble. And he had one of those. Um, so I was in contact with a couple of guys about a room to stay, and one of them was my partner. Um, now my partner. And, um, yeah, he just seemed the nicest [00:09:30] to stay in his apartment right in the city. So I said, Yep. I'll take the room. Um, he picked me up at the airport. I moved in and out. Did you expect to come to New Zealand and find? No, I just wanted to be here. Have a fun, easy year and bugger off again. It's still here. Uh, I think this is how life plays. When you look for it, you never find it. Just be open. Be yourself, be friendly, and you run into somebody. So you've entered a couple of of, uh, gay competitions. [00:10:00] The first one was Mr Gay New Zealand. Why did you do that? Um, again, I did a bit of voluntary work when I was younger while I was an older boy, I planned youth camps. Um, I was in the voluntary fire brigade. Um, and I wanted to contribute to the society again a bit to the community. Um, but it was kind of not possible while I was in too many places was studying with, um Army service with a bit of work here in in the UK. So once I settled down here, [00:10:30] and I've been at that point for three years in New Zealand when I thought about it to do something. And, um, there were never too many candidates from what I knew. Um, So I thought, Oh, in 2010, I could go for the competition in February 2011. But I went back with my partner to, um, show him Europe, um, in when was it January And it was all a bit too close. So I said, No, it's not the right thing. And, um but when the competition for 2012 came around, I said, OK, um, now I've got the time and I I'll give it [00:11:00] a go and let's see how I can contribute. And my goal was from the very beginning that I would like to use the opportunity of interviews, especially mainstream media interviews, to try to make our society a bit more open towards homosexuality to, um, try to tell people. It is good parenting to tell your Children that there is something else out there apart from straight love. Um, that it doesn't matter who you love. What counts is that you love. And, um, having a position as Mr [00:11:30] Gay in New Zealand, which gives you, um, opportunity for interviews is just a good platform for it. What drives you in that respect? I mean people into those competitions for a whole variety of reasons. Why did you want to push those those messages? Um, because of my own experience, because it was so hard for myself to accept that I'm gay. And, um, I think it would have been easier if, um, my environment would have been a bit more open about it. Not necessary. Not even necessarily accepting, but just open about [00:12:00] it. A bit of communication about it. And I think this is, um, what you can do with this position. The Mr New Zealand competition. What did that involve? Um, it was, um, the traditional stuff. You know, a couple of questions on the stage presentation to the crowd. Um, see how loud the crowd cheers. A bit of a sports competition. Um, and then, um, club wear formal wear and swim wear on the stage. Um, and it was at the big day out and at Family bar. Have you ever done anything like that before? No, I haven't. [00:12:30] I was completely new to it. Wow. How did that feel? Um, it was quite exciting. And, um, yeah, I was surprised to win because I didn't really have much stage experience before. Nervous? Um, yeah, definitely, Definitely. Of course. How how do you How do you cope with the nerves? Um, you just, um, try to be yourself. And, um, that always works for me. I don't really have, um, specific strategies to calm myself down. I just try to, um, do my best. So [00:13:00] you won a Yes, I did. And congratulations. And what did that mean for you? Oh, it meant for me. Um, that I could start, um, doing whatever I wanted to do. However, because the Mr Gay World competition was so close. Um, it got straight in a couple of interviews, but then it got straight into Oh, you have to register there, and you have to prepare for that. Um, so I had pretty much two months to get everything sorted to go to South Africa, to Johannesburg for that competition. And, [00:13:30] um, apart from a couple of interviews, um, that was really all I did outside work in these two months. Did that alter your self confidence or the way you looked at yourself in any way? No, I think I didn't, I think, um because it took me 10 years to realise who I am and be comfortable with it. It didn't really change much anymore because I gained self confidence in the process of coming out or accepting myself. How did your family react when you said you were Mr Gay New Zealand? Um, they were [00:14:00] kind of OK with it. Far away place. Um, a bit proud, maybe of an achievement. But it wasn't a big too big deal travelling to Johannesburg from Mr Gay World. Was that something you had to fund yourself, or was that paid for? Uh, no, that was paid for by the Mr Gay World Organisation. Tell me about that. How did how did that all happen? Um, yeah. Um, the national 25 countries, um, was national winners of Mr Gay. Um, competitions can go to, [00:14:30] um the Mr Gay World Competition. Last year it was in Manila. This year it was in Johannesburg. Um, usually the national director of a Mr Gay competition is, um, funding the trip to the Mr Gay World competition. But there is not much structure in New Zealand. There is not really a company or person owning the competition. Um, it was paid for by the Mr Gay World Competition. So, um, I flew over there beginning of April. And, um, there was this intense competition over five days. [00:15:00] What happens over five days? Um, there are a handful of churches. I think it was seven of them. They, um, constantly keep an eye on you. They monitor your every move. Um, you do sports challenges. You do a written exam on GL BT rights. Um, you have a panel interview, which is pretty much like a job interview. They sit down with you, they wanna discover what kind of person you are. They want to find out what your vision is in life, why you join the competition. And, um Then you also got the classical [00:15:30] stuff at the end of the week. Um, was a, um, big show in a theatre where you have to do a country where a swim we a formal way on the stage. So it was a very intense competition, Um, with a very, very tight programme, but exciting. What was the hardest part for you? Um, the hardest part for me possibly was, um, the outreach challenge. We went, um, to Nkosi's haven, which is an orphanage for, um, young Children living with HIV, [00:16:00] um, orphans and, um, seeing all these kids. Um, and I kind of compared it to my own life and my own upbringing. Um, where I thought I was sometimes alone or or where I was, um, in a situation where I was missing a person I could relate to with my personal feelings. I thought what these kids must be going through is, um, really terrible. But then again, um, this, um, charity, Nico's haven is giving [00:16:30] them a bit of perspective and giving them a bit of life. And that was at the same same time, While it was a very eye opening experience. Also a positive thing to see that What was it like mixing with with gay competitors from around the world? It was amazing. um it was a absolutely stunning group. We were. We met as some strangers, but we really left at friends any time. If one of those guys came to New Zealand, I would any time offer them my house to stay at, [00:17:00] um it was a very, very good at. We treated each other with respect and and friendships formed. Um, we heard that the previous year it was a bit of elbowing and a bit of tough competition. Um, but while we were competitive, we were also very, very friendly with each other. Um, so it was a good group of people. Why do you think these kind of competitions are important? Because they highlight, um, gay life. And they portray a bit more than what you usually [00:17:30] see. Um, gay parades are really good, but, um, a Mr Gay World competition, which, um, emphasises on looking for how it's called official and ambassador for gay and human rights. Um, highlights that there is a serious background and that we still need to improve the image of gay men. And I think, um, the Mr Gay World Competition does a fantastic job at that showing of, um really good role models from all countries. Each of these candidates [00:18:00] was a person you can look up to. So what was it like on the night when when you won? Um, it was very exciting. And it was, um, very, very hard to to get into CS and to understand. Um, I was blown away, and it felt a bit like a dream. It didn't seem real. Um, And then, um, right away got dragged from one interview to the next. So, um, and totally overwhelmed. So it was hard to say something very [00:18:30] intelligently. Um, but I kind of I think I made my way through somehow. Did you ever imagine in your wildest dreams that you would be standing accepting, You know, Mr Gay World? You know, when you were as a teenager? Never, ever. Um, because I was a completely different person when I was young. I was I didn't have any self confidence. I was shy. I felt off alone, and I think mainly because I was homosexual and couldn't come to terms with it, [00:19:00] um, I couldn't have imagined at the age of 14 15 that I would ever live in abroad in a different country. or that I would ever accept my homosexuality or that I would ever have a good life. But, um, once I was accepting who I am and come came to terms with it, um, it all it turned my life around. I became more self confident. I enjoyed life, and, um, it it is it is a very, very good experience. I think a gay person has to think about [00:19:30] themselves a lot more than a straight person who is just the norm kind of thing. And, um, yeah, I also had the chance to make a It gets better video. And, um, it's reminded me a lot of my journey because there are so many videos on this, um, platform that, um, tell you that it gets better. And it's not just an empty an empty saying it really does get better. What are some of the opportunities that have come [00:20:00] from being my gay world? Um, there are many fantastic, um, opportunities first and foremost, of course. Um, the interviews where Ken, as mentioned before, try to educate society a bit, um, spark discussions about homosexuality and about acceptance. Um, and other fantastic opportunities are, of course, the travelling. Um, I've got a budget to travel to all five continents around the world. Um, which, [00:20:30] um, the Mr Gable Organisation is, um, planning suggesting tools for me, and then, uh, I hopefully can fit them all in. And therefore, I was earlier on this year in Anwer and Amsterdam and then Cologne, Nunberg and, um, Yeah, I came back here, and the next travel is going to be Africa. And it's all again about promoting gay and human rights in these places. Also, you there, you will know there's more work to do in Africa than there is in Europe within New Zealand [00:21:00] itself. Has there been kind of any, uh, negative reaction or negative response? Um, I think you always have a bit of opposition. Um, with homosexuality. It is, um it is something people some people still find unacceptable. Disgust, disgusting, for whatever reasons. So there's always gonna be opposition, um, on newspaper articles online, where people can comment. Um, there was both, Of course, Like in any discussion about gay marriage, homosexuality, um, [00:21:30] gay adoption, whatever. Um, there's always pros and cons, but I guess, um, like Obama put it this morning so nicely. Um There's many people saying horrible things about him, but he will always defend their right to do so. And I think this is quite right. I guess when people are being negative, how do you now, um, make sure that you remain confident. How What are your ways of of staying in a positive space? [00:22:00] Um, depends on on no matter which perspective. Actually, it is. Um, if people are being negative, it hardly affects me. Um, because I've been on my journey. Um, if somebody wants to in inside me or wants to make me feel bad about me being gay, I think it's frankly, 20 years too late. Um, that doesn't work anymore. I know who I am. Um, it's I don't take it personally anymore. That's the one, side of the question. The other side is when [00:22:30] I come across somebody, um, insulting me or talking badly about, um, gay life, I try to have a fruitful discussion about it. A constructive discussion, for example, um, in Queenstown, Um, for gay. I stayed at a hotel and, um, sitting in the spa one evening, there was, um, two guys talking about all these gas in town and or they might hit on you. And, uh, what to best do if a gay gay guy hits on you and one guy said [00:23:00] to the other, Oh, you just have to brush them off very rudely. And, uh, it will be all right. And so I was sitting there in a in a spa as well, and thought, Oh, well, I feel the need to say something. So I said, Hey, guys, actually, I don't think you have to, um, brush somebody off rudely just to know things um would do. And they looked at me a bit strangely, and, um, then I conversation carried on. And then, um eventually. I also said, Hey, why don't you just take it as a compliment? They wouldn't be hitting on you if you [00:23:30] were some ugly somebody. And, um, yeah, the discussion evolved a bit. And what I noticed in this discussion was they've never thought about their point of view. Um, I guess they've always been told or made jokes about it in school that gays are strange or different or whatever, And, um, but talking about it and and giving them a different point of view, I think I could see in their faces how they started thinking about it. And this is how I go about it. Now, if, um, [00:24:00] if I hear something like that, and often enough, um, it's a fruitful discussion. Sometimes, You know, when you just deal with drunken people, there's no point in a discussion. You just walk away. And what about when you're dealing with, Say, um, a teenager who is, uh, you know, anxious about who they might be. How do you approach that? I get it actually a lot, Um, through emails through Facebook, Um, I get a lot of people writing to me with, um a whole lot of a variety of problems. [00:24:30] Um, if a teenager approaches me, um, I try to take the kind of usual, um, counselling approach to first, um, ask more questions to discover what's happening to determine if there's immediate danger. And, um, if there's immediate danger, of course, I'll just take the appropriate steps. Try to get in touch, um, get in touch with authorities if I can. Or, of course, with the permission of the person who's getting in touch with me. Um, otherwise, it's really just by asking [00:25:00] the right. Questions, Um, trying to get the person to give the right answers themselves. Because, um, it's a journey where you have to make your decisions yourself. Um, you can't tell people what to do. Um, they have to discover it themselves, but you can guide them with the right questions. So that is what I'm trying to do. Has that happened where, Where you've actually had to Maybe forwarded on to a councillor or to another authority? Um, it hasn't happened that I had a case. Um, that was that bad. Um, but what I do, if [00:25:30] it seems out of my, um, expertise, I, um, refer them on if they ever in New Zealand, for example, to outline where the specialist sits or if it is, um, an international case. Um, I just hop on the internet, and you can always find a gay organisation, which provides telephone advice or whatever. And, um, just tell them. Just go there. You can can remain anonymously, and they will help you. They will be there for you. Did you expect that when you kind of entered Mr Gay World, that that [00:26:00] that's maybe what you'd be doing? Um, I usually I always kind of think about the things I'm planning on doing. I'm a very organised person, and, um, I anticipated that this is gonna be part of it, but I didn't think it would be that much that big. How has this changed you? Oh, how has it changed me? It's a good question. Um, I think I should ask my friends if it [00:26:30] changed me or I don't feel different, But maybe it has changed me without me noticing nothing better than a bit of external feedback sometimes.

IRN: 606
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/welby_ings_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004048
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089342
TITLE: Welby Ings
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Welby Ings
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; Alfies 2; Aotearoa New Zealand; Aquarius Club; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Auckland; Auckland University of Technology; Boy (film, Welby Ings); Geoff Braybrooke; HIV / AIDS; Heterosexuals Unafraid of Gays (HUG); Human Rights Act (1993); Munted; National Gay Rights Conference; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; New Zealand Gay News; Out (magazine); Pukeatua; Sandy Gauntlett; Stonewall riots (1969); Taihape; Victoria Spa sauna; Welby Ings; Wolfenden report; abuse; activism; arts; assimilation; coming out; community; crime; cruising; death; drag; education; family; film; gay; gay liberation movement; growing up; history; homophobia; homosexual law reform; human rights; identity; language; law; legacy; marriage equality; media; movies; politics; profile; relationships; sex; sex work; sexuality; social; teaching; venues; visual arts
DATE: 26 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland University of Technology, 55 Wellesley Street East, Auckland
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So will be, um I have encountered you a number of times in the past. And when I say that when I've been doing preservation work, I've encountered some of your work and some of the things you've said. And, um, I thought it would be a really good opportunity to come and talk to you about some of those things. And also what you what you're doing now, Um, the first time I encountered you was when I was preserving material about the homosexual law reform. And I think you stood up in a meeting on the North Shore and, um, and and spoke. Can you recall [00:00:30] that meeting? Yeah, it was It was at the at the in the middle towards the end of a fairly fraught time. Um, and it had been called by the AAA Church organisation, but it was called a public meeting, and by that stage, we'd got ourselves reasonably organised in Auckland. So we we, um we were rather than having the those organisations coming and disrupting our meetings, we were going to their meetings, so we were putting ourselves inside their spaces. [00:01:00] Um, and when we, uh, just before I left to turn up. A friend rang and said, Um, they're not letting the queers in. And I said, Well, how do they know? You know, how do they know who's queer? And they said, Well, you know, you you know, you you need to get in because there were a group of us who were potential speakers. But I think, um, Peter Wells, we had one guy who was who was to be the speaker. We thought, but there were two or three others. We always did this of having backups so that if anything went wrong, you know, we weren't left stranded [00:01:30] anyway. So I I phoned a friend of mine who had two sons, and I said, Can you be my wife? For this time? We're going into the into the mouths of the new right. So I grabbed the only Bible in the house and we leapt into the car, told the kids to shut up, and we got there and there There was this channel leading down and there were all these all these queer women and queer men who must have got, you know, sorted out and said, No, you're not coming in. So they were standing there and we were walking down going Oh, for God's sake, don't look at me and say good day, Welby. We get down there and there's this big, [00:02:00] big South African guy and, um, Afrikaans guy. And he said, um, uh, he kind of looked at us suspiciously, and I and I thought, Oh, fuck, we're not going to get in. And he said, um, who invited you? And I said our pastor did buying for my teeth, and, uh and he said, uh um, who's your pastor? So I made up a name and I thought, Fuck, this isn't gonna go too well. Somebody's gonna say, Get a or something So I said to him, Look, we got two sons and a wife and I do not want to be standing out here in amongst [00:02:30] these people and I thought, God, heaven's sake, let us in now, Come on, let us in. This isn't fair. My kids should not be subjected to this. So anyway, the guy let us in. We got in and the thing erupted because about at least half of the people in there were queer, you know? Yeah. And he was so pissed off you could see him at the door going because it must have happened. There must have been a few got in and a few hadn't. Anyway, All the all the queers stayed outside the meeting and they were making a lot of noise, and, uh, they started it. And there were no queer speakers. And so we asked if we could have equal [00:03:00] representation because it was a public meeting and the police were there by that stage because they'd been sufficient disruption up to that time, especially in those weeks leading up to that, um, the, um incident outside the Salvation Army when the flag was lowered to half mast a whole lot of little things like this. So it was seen as disturbing the peace. Um and, um, anyway, a speaker got up, and, um, he was booed by the crowd. And, um [00:03:30] and we realised that this wasn't going. We we we had the strategy when we went into a meeting of not sitting in one group of always putting yourself well round. And so it sounded like you were the full crowd, even though you were a minority. And we also had a strategy of when you were speaking. Identify two or three people in the family from up there and keep talking to them. So you look as if you're talking to the whole crowd and the whole crowd. And of course, within the crowd, these people are doing the nod and and you're going Oh, yeah, that's right. So it was a way of kind of affirming what you were doing because it it was a shit atmosphere. [00:04:00] It was a shit place to be, Um because the the, um you weren't just unwelcome. You were. You knew you were seen as as an aberration. And, um, and my my partner, he he didn't he didn't want to be part of it. And I, I totally understood so and he said to me before I leave, for God's sake, don't get yourself on TV or anything he was. He held the national title in the triple jump at that stage, and he was he was out. But of course he didn't want his career damaged. And he [00:04:30] was he was a good man. He was a good man. But, you know, you realised as you were going through that, that other people were also paying the cost for you, for you being out. But anyway, our speaker, the poor bastard he started and then it just turned to shit and everyone was yelling and he started screaming back and they just got up and removed him off the stage. And so the crowd just started stamping their feet on the ground and insisting, insisting And they said, All right, assuming we didn't have another speaker, you can have another speaker. And we had a a lovely older [00:05:00] woman. She was a grandmother, and she looked like everybody's sort of Auntie Minnie. And she was a very good speaker. She she wasn't queer, but I think she had a queer grandson. But she said, you know, we thought, Well, she would be good because she would, you know, break the the preconception. But she said, Oh, no, no, It was a bit hostile, so I thought, Oh, fuck, I'd better But I was out by that stage. But, you know, that was at that time before the law reform was through, there were two big issues. One you were criminalised. So you could, [00:05:30] you know, not to be gay. But if you were practising gay you know, it's a fine line, but the big issue was that you could be fired from your job because there were no human rights protections. So you could lose your job. You could lose access to accommodation and you could lose. Um, you didn't have to be given goods and services, and that was what the real anxiety was. And, um, and I I was teaching at a school at that stage. They knew I was out and they knew I was politically involved. I don't think they quite knew what was going to happen. But anyway, the, um I got up and I and, [00:06:00] uh um what was his name? Jeff Bray. Brook. Jeff Bray Brook. He's a guy with about 18 chins and sorry if he's alive. But you did have 18 chins. And anyway, I I walked across the stage and went to shake his hand, and he just pulled his hand away. And I thought, Fuck this and, uh and of course, the audience just started roaring. Well, the audience didn't. The family in the audience started roaring, but it sounded like the audience anyway. So when I got to stand up II, I kept I didn't have anything prepared to say. I just thought, But you realised that it was a really important thing because [00:06:30] not only for the people outside, because they could hear. But the people inside had taken a big risk. They'd come to the heart of the same world that wanted them criminalised, and it was a really difficult. It was a really difficult situation. So I thought, I'll talk about being a teacher. And so I introduced it by saying, I'm from the time I was 12, I was a criminal And then I said, I'm a teacher. Television was there and they brought broadcast it. So the next day, when I got back to school, there was people marching outside the school. Um, this was at the time of the petition, was in full [00:07:00] swing, and my my wood I was teaching woodwork my woodwork class eyes like sorted because they'd all seen it on TV. And I said to them, Look, you know, you know, I'm gay, and you know I exercise my right to speak. I'm not saying that you have to hold the same views, but I would defend your right to speak and they said. Oh, you know, all these people outside of the petition will go out and deal to them and I said, No, that's them exercising their right to speak And they said, Oh, it's not fair It's not right These were These were big Tongan kids who'd come over to do woodwork at that [00:07:30] that school. And, um Um, but of course, the church was very staunch. I mean, if we think it's staunch now, it's nothing what it was like in the early eighties, and, um and they were being quite torn because they had a you know, they had a teacher, who they Well, we got on really well, you know, and and, um But they also had a pastor who was saying the opposite, and the two things weren't marrying up and they were having a lot of trouble. Um, because they understood the concept of, But they didn't understand the concept of, you know, a gay man teacher who's teaching them how to use the wood [00:08:00] lathe and how to do housing joints. And they didn't match up, and they they saw my partner, and they he didn't match up either. So anyway, the, um the the women from the office went out and they were, Well, they could become harpies when necessary. And I think they moved. They moved the protesters on, but, um, but that was, um, that that was that incident. But really, I took that position of of, uh, saying, you know, saying when I was 12, I was a criminal to show them what they were doing to kids [00:08:30] and then to say I was a teacher because I knew that would get to them. But it was also the core of the fact that we are everywhere. We're not in their eyes, you know, We were decadent florists, and, you know, we permeate to the same society that they do. So that's probably what that incident was. What age were you when you were doing that? Probably late twenties. Might have been Should, um, come up from late twenties, early thirties. Had you ever been involved in in a thing like that [00:09:00] before? Yeah, in the early days, um, we used to The police used to have a habit if you there was a club called the Aquarius Club and they used to have a habit of if you were walking home with a guy they would pull over and stop you and that their standard line was You meet the description of there's been a burglary you meet a description of Of that was the standard thing. But it was just a hassle. But I used to always walk hand in hand with my partners. And if I if I met somebody and we were going home, if I went to hold their hand and they didn't, then it was off. [00:09:30] I was that I didn't want to know. And, um So, um, Ian and I were walking home and, um, and we stopped and and there was actually there were training things. So there's a lot of stuff, isn't that well known, But at the conferences, there used to be workshops on how to handle yourself with the police. So you knew you had to give your name and address, but you didn't have to give anything more. And then you just kept saying, Am I being arrested? Am I being arrested? And so we were taught to use the correct record technique and never, ever to get flustered. And of course, [00:10:00] they weren't that used to it to have somebody respond to them very calmly. But keep saying Am I being arrested? And if they say yes, you say, Could I could I have your number, please? You know, and so they knew they got introduced to the fact that there were people who we we weren't. Uh I think the police's attitude to gay men had been formed from the bogs, which was, uh, that was one dimension. That was one of the worlds we had to live in. But it wasn't, um, of course, [00:10:30] it was only a very thin way for thin part of the society, so they didn't expect to be spoken to as equals. They expected us to be afraid. And we had every right to be afraid, because although you could be put into prison for seven years at that stage, very few people did the seven years. If anything, it was three months. But at the end of three months, you came out. You lost your job, you'd lost your rent. You know, you hit your house and the goods and your name was corrupted. So that's what the real feel. So although we were talking about the law reform that truly, I think for many men, [00:11:00] the real issue was not the decriminalisation. It was the human rights amendment that came later. And we'd, you know, we'd fought during the freer. And what was the one by, uh uh, Warren free. And there was another bill next to it before the wild one. Um, and both we we had stopped those going through because they wouldn't give equity. They were sort of going, Oh, at 21. Maybe you can you know, you can have equity, or you can have, uh, decriminalisation so we'd held out. But of course it was at a cost. Because you still [00:11:30] I mean, I had I. I mean, first time I went to Mount Eden to visit someone. I was 23 and it shocked me. You know that, Um, this is where this is when I first got a sense of my people. Isn't it strange? I mean, today it sounds like an anachronism that we talk about gays as being people in this post gay environment. But in fact, the the the necessity of it was if you didn't see yourself as a people, then you became quite vulnerable. You had [00:12:00] to have something to hold on to. And I think that's why the words gone from today. But that's why we used to talk about things like family and within family as constructive aunties and mothers and sisters. And and those words still flicker a little bit around today. But I don't think many people understand what that really was. That was a community of people often who had lost the right to their biological family through coming out or access to. And so they formed alternative families, and they look after each other. And certainly all the stuff I learned about how to handle [00:12:30] yourself with the police came from there came from there, you know? So, um, and you learn very quickly walking hand in hand. Was that in Auckland? Yep. Where did that kind of staunchness come from? From anger. Anger? Fuck, um, I I grew up in It was a little farming district, a great family, great family. And in fact, it's funny that later on, my twin sister came out and so did my next sister come out. So half of the family actually were queer. But the time when I was dragged out for being caught feeling [00:13:00] up a fellow fifth form in the back of the German class. It was not a good time. It was not a good time. And and, um um and I learned I learned through my last years of secondary school and probably through my teachers college years because I didn't have access to anything more. I learned that I had to be some kind of social aberration, even though, but I'd never fallen in love. And I know this sounds a bit soppy, but it was when that happened that I realised this was all crap, [00:13:30] and and then I was angry. I was very angry before the days of being politically angry. I was fucked off, and I just thought, This is crap. This is crap. And, um And so that's where it came from. And so I was the art director for, um, New Zealand Gay News. And, uh, the flat I was living in, which was, I think, 27 Collingwood Street. That was where we did the, um produced it out of there. David Russell was the editor, and the house was basically made up of people who either worked on New Zealand gay news [00:14:00] or fed the people who worked on New Zealand gay news. But it was, I mean, we had a secret mailing list for that. It was we had to be very careful. We had to be really careful. We had offices at the bottom of Queen Street upstairs. Um, and I always remember they just smelled a bull gum from post up a thing they use for posting up and and the and the, um, a publisher that used to publish it. There's this really strange thing Wanganui Newspapers published, I think crack the feminist newspapers, they all a strange little thing down in Wanganui was [00:14:30] where if you needed anything dicey published, they would do it. So, um, it was, uh it was and and there was I mean, of course, there was a lot of tension there at that time between as as we're trying to work out AAA, if you like a public gay identity because prior to that all identity because it hadn't been disseminated, all identity was kind of in in a closed area. But suddenly you're in the public domain in print, and there were issues of what's the impact of sexism on the way we talk about ourselves. Ageism. [00:15:00] Well, there's a lot of ISMs floating around. You know, The early magazine had quite a socialist leaning, but that's because we had so much trouble generating any New Zealand copy that we had to kind of grab it off from overseas. And then those things coming in from overseas had to be smuggled into the country because Customs was really tough and they would stop them coming in. What kind of year was this? Nine. Late into the 19 seventies. Um, I'd have to go back through early issues of New Zealand gay news, but I left when New Zealand Gay News turned into out magazine. So, [00:15:30] um, it was cited covers for them for about? Well, only about I think it was about a year and a half might have been, but, um, but that was, you know, like one of the stories about you know that that we often put out there is that stone wall was kind of started the movement and and then it was driven out of the new universities in New Zealand. That is crap. It's much, much older than that. It grew up. I believe? Well, my experience was it grew up through families and they were often in small towns or small communities and there was identity there. And there were names [00:16:00] like they had. Don't know if I really if this is gonna go on the website. I did not say the names, but they were particularly savage, but there were code names for people that they were. This was the stage when it was coming out of the stage when gay men were divided into what was called butch and bitch and that never sat well with me. And so I came into that world that was just beginning to close. And, um I, I think, as as sensibility as as as we got more access to information, we realised you didn't have to be in those roles. But that's kind of roles [00:16:30] the families were in. And I think that's why families use things like they had words for mother um Auntie Sister, But not for Father. Uncle. The only other term they had was it. I had it or that thing. So it it it it within the family. Although it was protective, it was also self denigrating in a way. If you look at its language, it was self denigrating. So, um, so And And but the interesting thing is, you see, that wasn't the universities. This was more working class, and it never got documented [00:17:00] as well. Universities are very good at documenting their own stories. So if we look at the trajectory of of, of law reform and gay rights in New Zealand, it tends to be told through the through the writing of the articulate and they see themselves in it. Whereas I think your old histories will probably uncover something else, which is older than that. That's why I like Chris Brick's, um, book because it went back and it started getting some of that other stuff. And so we can see flickers of it way, Way before, and it quite defiant gay men. So what, then do you think the Stonewall? [00:17:30] What kind of impact did it have on New Zealand? Fuck all, Really. Um, it was a it became part of a an accepted narrative. It it became evidence or part of a written about narrative. And so you got a sense that you were something more than the narratives that were supplied for you by Dick Em by television characters because there were the only other narratives were these, you know, if you could smuggle them into this country, these very dark novels where the gay guy always died at the end anyway. So he [00:18:00] was a historical narrative that didn't frame you as abject. It didn't frame you as as dysfunctional and so I. I guess we we we we we we ate it up quickly because it was something that framed us as something strong and, um, self actualized. But it was foreign. It was an American thing from an American context. And it didn't actually it It's like the British often think that the WOLFENDEN report had huge impact on New Zealand had fuck all influence on New Zealand. [00:18:30] Fuck all you know, in truth, what had influence in New Zealand was this growing, slowly percolating stuff that came up through the forties fifties sixties seventies of of stroppy people, certainly the most stroppy political people that I remember as a kid with the drag queens. They were really they were really struck. They had mouths like septic tanks, and they they would take on anybody and and the the interesting thing was to see, as the gay rights thing rose up, [00:19:00] they became marginalised and so did their language, and so did their culture because they were not palatable to the overground that we were trying to get to give us equal rights. And so the the the flagrant screaming queen became a kind of, uh, it's a terrible thing, but they became a kind of embarrassment. And if you watch their profile, it begins to disappear in there and I. I sometimes think the same thing happening as we work towards gay marriage, that [00:19:30] the danger we have with that kind of assimilation is that we can actually sacrifice elements of our own culture. Um, that have stood the ground when we weren't there. And they will always be uneasy. They will always be socially uneasy. They're not. They're not designed to fit in, but they are designed to be part of society. Sorry. I'm wandering off the question. No, no, that that That's fascinating. Do you think your, um, anger kind of manifested itself in your creativity? [00:20:00] No, what my anger did, and this was actually only brought up a couple of years ago. Somebody noted it, and I hadn't even realised it. I'm really in my work because I don't just do queer stories. You know? II. I see myself as a queer man who tells stories, Um, but not as a queer storyteller. And, um, I've got this huge thing, apparently, And I see now it was a big thing with injustice, A big thing. But it's not limited to just the queer issue. And, um, I think, you know, I think [00:20:30] lots of people who've grown up queer oftentimes find that one of the benefits of it, and they're not a heap load of benefits. But one of the benefits is that oftentimes if you get your shit together, you develop a very good empathy for other people, whether it's the fat, ginger headed girl who's called a slut at school, or whether it's somebody whose belief system was different, Um, or somebody who's coping with some kind of disability or someone who's who's making brave steps in the face of opposition. The best the you know, [00:21:00] the one of the best payoffs of growing up marginalised is that you become empathetic. You mentioned earlier, uh, at that North Shore meeting, you you keep on referring to we and I'm just wondering what, who who was we? We was something that looked like, um, a group of vagabonds out of the tape drama club. Really? It was a, um there was a a little meeting called as I recall. And, um, Warren, Warren Lindbergh Me. [00:21:30] I think one of the Wells guys it might have been Peter Wells was I think it must have been about eight of us down there. And, um and this was when the first talk about this law reform Fran wilds built was coming in, and the idea that we had to be we actually had to be politically, reasonably smart with it. Rather, traditionally, our approach had been to, um, carry a banner and yell loudly, you know, And while that had been great for the adrenaline, it didn't move politics ahead. So and we were looking [00:22:00] at how we might, how we might play that out, And, um, and that that group grew bigger. And then an interesting thing happened that those early marches the the marches at the end of the seventies down Queen Street, when there were, like, eight of you carrying banners they were. They and the police didn't like you like the standard approach. You'd always stand next to a police, a police police woman and start a conversation with you. And they weren't allowed to talk to you. And but you just tried to humanise yourself to them, you know, [00:22:30] and then be seen talking to the cop as you were walking down the street carrying the banner. You know, it was just it was just politics, but But anyway, the, um, kind of sound like a manipulator, but that's it was just survival. And then I remember those marches through through years of, um, I remember we had banner gay Rights of Waikato, which had two walls from wall and the dog and foot right flats, you know, walls on it, holding hands, and, uh, and those marches had been very lonely. And then, in the turn of one incident, [00:23:00] there was this organisation set up called hug. Heterosexual was unafraid of gays, and suddenly the marches were packed. Lots of gays felt that they could join them because they could now be mistaken for heterosexual. They were wearing hug badges, you know, and you go fuck off. But that was the terms that they could join. That was the terms they could join. So while I guess a few radicals were a bit pissed off, I in my heart I knew what it was to be afraid to, to come out and and that's a quite a rough road for anyone. It still is [00:23:30] today, but being on suddenly being on a map march, where it was all trendy, trendy was very, very disorienting and very, quite deeply disturbing. You knew politically it was a good thing. But you realise that there were a whole lot of people missing from the march who were never going to be there anymore. And they were the ones who were screaming their tits off, you know, from the from the back of somebody's car in in bad drag four years earlier. [00:24:00] So but it had to happen. That was the nature of mainstreaming and the mainstreaming. While it was toxic to some, uh, we lost some cultural stuff through it. Uh, it made it safer for a lot of other people. And I think it also made it safer for a lot of parents of gays and friends of gays. Um it started to break down this strange split we had between lesbian women and gay men who kind of were were really oppositional at that stage. [00:24:30] And we, you know, slowly we kind of looked at our commonalities a little bit more and started realising that one of the quickest way to dis, you know, disempower a minority is get them to fight inside themselves. And, uh, yeah, so does that kind of answer your question. What did law reform mean to you? Um well, it meant what the true thing it meant was that my mates didn't get hassled anymore. [00:25:00] We after the thing that happened on the on the North Shore, we started getting phone calls at home, and, um and he would I mean, he he didn't take shit from anybody, but he wasn't used to women screaming obscenity. Well, not screaming Bible verses down the phone at him. And we had, uh, we had a We were living in Grey Lynn at that stage, and I'd come up from And, um, it was just before I started building the house out in bush, and, um, [00:25:30] we, uh he he was getting he was getting upset about the whole thing. He said it's gone too far and, um, you know, and I knew I'd been part of it, but I loved him very much, and it's hard when someone you love is getting hurt. And, um and I still don't know the answer to that. I still don't know how you negotiate your way through that, but on my birthday A, um um they the post office was next door, and there were these these these lovely women and they they'd [00:26:00] seen the thing on TV. So they knew what? You know what my political involvement was and and, um, uh, they were a lot of people were ambivalent at that stage, so I don't think there were a lot of people weren't hostile. They just didn't understand because this looked different to what they had understood. Gay was. So they were seeing quite ordinary people. Um, but they were also seeing that in a conflict situation. So it was unsettling the the status quo, so they were ambivalent. And anyway, um, one of them popped and said, Oh, parcel for you in the post office. And [00:26:30] I thought, Oh, it's my birthday. Well, two days away from my birthday. So I went in and we were joking. It was handed over this little parcel and I said, Well, I thought who who, you know, didn't look like anything on you, And I opened it up and it was a cigarette packet full of shit, And they it had an amazing effect because the women in the post office were kind of crowding around and saw it, and they suddenly realised what this was about. The big guy didn't know where to put it. You know? What do you do with a cigarette packet Full of shit? And they were they were really shocked [00:27:00] and they said, Well, who sent it? And I said, Well, who's look for it? There was nothing and I said, Oh, don't worry, I know what this is. And I think I realised then that that people understand things when the ordinary, when the ordinary is infected with with, um with the intolerable. And then two days later, another one arrived and, uh, they had they said, it's quite light. It might be all right. And it was a cigarette packet. This was so tacky. With cotton wool dipped and coal and a razor blade in it, you know, [00:27:30] And but those things there were I think that what happened was for many people, I mean, those are graphic examples. But for many people, um, what the law reform did it showed ordinary people. It showed that there were queer men who had kids Or that there were, um, lesbian women who look just like your daughter. And, um And who did he like? I used to often wear a suit when I went on a march. And I mean, I only possess two of the bloody things, but I'd do it [00:28:00] because I see it as a political thing to to reinforce the ordinariness of things. But I don't actually believe there's any such thing as ordinary, but to to reinforce to to to to kill off the otherness. You know, when you make something into the other, you can treat it like shit. And if you stop it looking like the other, And yet I'm caught in the same thing because I don't agree with kind of the whole integration thing. So it's a contradiction. How was it for you, or can you describe for me what it's like [00:28:30] when you're kind of thrust into the media spotlight, where it must be quite unsettling where you you actually don't have necessarily control over the story or the narrative. That's a very perceptive question. They used to. I don't know if you know the old name for The Herald used to be Granny Herald Granny Herald used to always When I was on a march outside the when the, uh, Victoria Spa sauna got raided, they sent another undercover cops, and most people probably know about this. They sent another undercover [00:29:00] cops, and then they they made some arrests, and that sauna was was tied in with what was to become out magazine. And although a lot of people are disparaging about them, they, Bret Shepherd and Tony Kado were actually they gave a lot of money under the table to political causes, and they certainly were the thorn in the side of the customs that they they really were a lot of battles, not them on their own, but when people kind of wipe them off and go, they were just commercial rip-off agents. That's that's actually not true. I don't think that's [00:29:30] a a deep enough analysis of what was going on and, um, the so they they rang up and said, Look, would you be willing to march outside the courthouse? And so I was teaching down in Hamilton at that stage. So I took a day off, went up and still a photo I got somewhere around marching down sign saying a cop in a bog is a cop and a sauna is a screw like Oh, fuck. There were about six of us marching up and down, up and down. Of course, the Herald described it, I think, as two people and the gay press [00:30:00] said it was 100 you know? So it was all it was all full of bullshit, really. But it was a It was a, um It's a pretty, um uh, pretty frightening, um, March Because, really, those were the ones that were it was unsafe. That was where you were left with the core. Those little core of people and a lot of people didn't have a lot of a lot to lose. Like a lot of people. Um, no, some people weren't employed by they were privately employed. Now they weren't. It wasn't in something like teaching where [00:30:30] you could lose your job quickly or in something that your business relied on you being, uh, socially safe, if you like. So there were some very, very brave people really, really brave people who fade now into anonymity. But they were the ones there, um, cutting the sidewalk up, doing that stuff that was a lot harder before it became fashionable to shot be gay and walk down the street. You know, did you ever feel unnerved by the media? Yeah, [00:31:00] I did. Because I saw I saw what it did to people's stories. Um, they could. It could be very. And I still I still get Really, um, I still know that at any given time you only have to look at tabloids to see what how they treat how little they value life. Um, and I look at somebody's story reconized and and turn them into, you know, putting a a to like, you know, the beast of something, or there's something on it. It's it's dangerous. It's very dangerous stuff. Culturally, it's dangerous stuff. [00:31:30] Um and so I've seen how lives have been muted with it. I've always been reasonably lucky because I've been reasonably articulate. I guess, and that's been a godsend, you know? But, um, but I've always been careful with, uh, if I'm interviewed for something. Uh, because you realise that, um, not all people who present themselves as concerned are actually that ethical when it comes to cutting up a great story [00:32:00] and you can find yourself I mean, like, the the news broadcast that went out from that thing where they closed down the meeting. Um, that took a couple of highlights out of the thing and made it look like this was a flaming battle. Actually, it was a very There was actually a lot of joy around it, but there was also a real sense of of fear, and the fear was in the family because you'd just seen half over half of your people shut out of a public meeting. Um, it's a very hard [00:32:30] thing to watch. It's very hard. And when those are your friends and you're walking past hoping they don't acknowledge you so you can get in. And so it works on very subtle levels. So when you when you see those things, um, re taking the eyes out of something to tell the story in a particular way. I think over time it teaches you to be more careful with the media. What was interesting, though, that although we had workshops at the end of the seventies about how to handle yourself with the police, never workshops with how to handle yourself with the media. It was an interesting thing. [00:33:00] I think today it's something that probably fairly useful. But I don't think just for queer people. I just think for anybody who's in a marginalised position. Unfortunately, you know, if you look at David Gray's arguing arguments, things don't get more civilised. They just, um they just change their nature slightly going through something like the homosexual law reform and some of the the kind of intense experiences that you had. Do those experiences stay with you? I mean, I guess what I'm asking is, you know, does it have a psychological [00:33:30] impact, you know, 2030 years down the track. In truth, the things that really changed me were more fundamental, like, uh, falling in love. That changed me. Um, learning that if you're honest to the people that you love, it's gonna be easier for them, you know? So telling family and stuff like that. Those are things that were really profound. But I think those those other situations they they there is something cumulative that sits [00:34:00] under the surface. And, um, in the law reform, I learned I learned not to be afraid, and I actually did much more for my public speaking than ever doing speech contests at college ever did. So that was that was a good thing. And it not that speech contests at college were really great learning and devices. But but, you know, like for the AIDS thing. Um, this weekend I got out a video on, uh, American video. I didn't actually know what it was. It was [00:34:30] called rent, but I didn't know what it was going to be, but it was about AIDS. And I sort of thought, Oh, fuck. Another tragedy age thing, you know, because you after a while, you kind of if it didn't have the human face that you knew it, it was turned into an issue. And so it kind of lost stuff. But I had, um and I'm not wimpy with with narratives. I mean, fuck, that was hard to watch. The grief was very hard. to watch. And, um, it's not that the ghosts of all your past come back. You just [00:35:00] I I'm a I'm a guy who's very hard, very hard for me to cry. But somehow that triggered other grief and you're sitting there thinking, Oh, fuck. Oh, fuck. And so, something in the in the other layers of you, the deeper layers of you Um, there is residue of those those things, those tougher things. But it doesn't. I mean, I've always been a a staunch believer. You don't If you let something like that disable you, you actually defeat the purpose of [00:35:30] it. Um, but it it leaves my, uh, one of the cool things that did. Well, one of the cool things that aids did is I'm really good with handling death. Now I'm I'm much more. I just understand it as a very ordinary thing. And so, like with the death in the family or something, um, it's you can be quite level headed, and, uh and you realise that the person who matters most, the person whose opinion who matters most is the person who's dying and fuck everybody else. They're the ones who have to be looked after, and they're the ones who need to [00:36:00] be listened to. But I would never have had that if I hadn't come through as lots of lots of gay men wouldn't have if they hadn't come through that, um, that that process. So there are layers, but they're not. They're not fundamental. They're not operating up on the on the top level. That kind of moves into the the next area where I encountered you. Which was when I was, um, photographing the AIDS Memorial Quilt. And there was a, um, a panel for Ian. Um, a a absolutely [00:36:30] beautiful panel. It was the guy who I was walking home holding hands when the cops stopped us. Yeah, he was a lovely man. A lovely man. Um, when the quilt thing first came out, I thought I was a bit naff. You know, I thought, um, and I and and And really, it didn't help me with the grieving process because I've never sort of thought of, um, you know, I will now grieve and sort this out. That's never Oh, I out to a farm boy. I don't I don't sort of think like that, you know, [00:37:00] But But, um, I wanted to I realised that he was a man's life who would be overlooked. He would be overlooked. Um, but he was a good man, a really, really good man. And he was the first man I ever fell in love with, so it was very, very profound. And, um and I thought, Well, I I'll make the quilt just a simple just about the simple things like the tow rope we had and cutting up his [00:37:30] pyjamas and my shirts and painting the hills outside the window. And then I also did another one for Kevin with him with wings on, And, um but they became they just became a way of just making sure that those people weren't lost in the statistics. I remember, um, at Kevin's funeral, a guy did something that really pissed me off. He sat up and told how many people, how many told people how many friends he had who died of AIDS. It was like a running telly. [00:38:00] But fuck, none of us are numbers. None of us are, um, an accumulation on a score. You know, um, each of us is a unique contribution to this. To what's here, and and so that's what I tried to do with the quilts. But then they they did A In the end, I, I kind of pulled away. Two incidents happened with the quilts that I found difficult. Um, I. I think they were a very good idea. A very good way of getting the human [00:38:30] face across. But they had a a memorial at the at the art gallery, and they were reading up the names as if it was a piece of poetry, you know? And it was all theatre. 00, fuck. You know, I would have told him to eat shit and die, you know, just it's not That's not, you know, these are these are real people. They're not theatrical names in some theatrical gesture of grief. And the other one was that, um a crew was doing something about it might have been gay Pride Week or something. And they had Kevin's quilt round there, [00:39:00] and they asked us to stand behind it and hold it and smile like it was a banner or something. And I I thought, Fuck, I'm not. This is This was my mate, this mate. I won't describe it but anybody who's lost someone with with AIDS, it's not. It's not a pretty thing, you know, it's it's a fuck this standing here all smiling and going Ra Ra ra as if we're carrying a banner going, you know, come to the gay parade. And in the end, they they the the, um, producer was getting pissed off [00:39:30] and and said, you know, would you just smile and I fuck this so I don't use my rag very often, But I just said, Do you know who this fucking man is? And then I told him to take the quilt out of the thing and, uh, and and, you know, I walk off and it was it was not a particularly well handled situation, but is the difficulty with the quilts is that they could move into theatre. And in doing that, while it becomes a more consumable [00:40:00] product, it loses its relationship to real people when it just becomes a set of tearful stories. And I know I know that that's partly how it operates. But it had a tension because it was trying to do two things. It was trying to deal with the grief of individuals and communities, and it was also trying to be a public statement. And there's a tension between those two things. So when you see them all laid out, you know, in in, uh, in New York, you look at it and I go, What the fuck? You know what the fuck that's. [00:40:30] But you know, when you, um, a mate rings you up and says, Um, you know, I'm I'm looking for a bit of, you know, such and such cloth because I want to put it on the quilt and you go around and you have a cup of coffee or you have a beer with him and he's working through it and he's never touched a sewing machine in his fucking life. And he's trying to do the best thing he can. It's a very different thing. It's a very different thing. And the two fact the two don't They can't meet up, but they kind of had to with the purpose of what the quilts were. Do you think that perhaps [00:41:00] it was the moment between creating the quilt and then actually gifting the quilt to the quilt project? That's when that kind of change happens so from from a kind of a personal, um, grieving or or signifier type thing to then making it a public statement is that it's a perceptive. That's a perceptive analysis of it. Um, probably, unfortunately, in making the thing your relationship is enshrined in there. So even though you gift it over, you can't pull your relationship [00:41:30] out of it. It's not a thread that you can pull out as you hand it over, and so that's why that tension exists in there. I think, um, some people, I mean, I knew a couple of people who did them as showcases, and that's cool. That's fine. That's what they wanted to do. But for people where they really were quite grief things, it's hard. I'm not saying that the initiative is wrong. I'm just saying that many of these things are because they're difficult, they have difficulties in them. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be done. But they're not all black and white and, um, [00:42:00] and when you hand it over, although you are handing it over for that public use, you are still you and your relationship with that person are still integral to it, and and that's part of what gives it its power, but also what causes it to run in detentions when it's used in a public environment. What was your first knowledge of HIV and aids? That's a really good question I was living in. And, [00:42:30] uh, the, uh, which actually isn't a shithole that most people think it is. And, um and that was when I first heard about it. And the first thing was, uh, talking about cat flu and then that we knew it was Americans. And there were lots of jokes about it being airline stewards because airline stewards. So a lot of jokes went around Airline stewards sort of was equivalent with fake suntans and sluttish behaviour. Really, you know, and and and envy because they always look great. Um, but, um, the [00:43:00] the first thing I heard was that it was, uh it was cat flu. And then this was, I think, before the word aids came out. And then that because the anxiety is what the hell causes it. And there was some worry at some stage. It was to do with poppers. There was quite a an association with it with MR nitrate. And then there was kissing could do it. And then, you know, all the pandemonium broke out and and people thought that, you know, looking at a gay man. I mean, [00:43:30] when I was, um, I was teaching woodwork. I remember one time we, um we had a meeting woodwork, teachers and and, uh, part way through. Everyone had a cup of tea, and I'd finished my cup of tea, took it out to the kitchen, and, um, washed the cup, turned it over, went back out and then went back out to the kitchen for something. And one of the guys had some Jeff and was scouring out the inside of my cup. You know, they they all they all knew I was gay and, um and sort of Oh, fuck, yeah. There's quite [00:44:00] a bit of stuff kind of going on through all this through all this. But anyway, I think I've missed your question. What was it that you asked me? Uh, your first, uh, knowledge of HIV N. Sorry. So it was about poppers and then but fairly early on came the idea that if you used a condom, you were fairly You probably gonna be safe. I'd never like I still don't like them, but I The reason I'm alive is that I use them. But I don't like them, you know. But, um, [00:44:30] most of my mates didn't use them, and they did. So that's all there is to it. I I'm not even a you know, like I see some people go safe sex, or sometimes they go fuck off. You know, sometimes not. No, not sometimes. You know, you're either gonna have to do it all the time or not at all. And, um but, uh, I I think there was there was some frustration. One of the big frustrations that we ran into was that [00:45:00] when the Health Department started taking over the AIDS thing, there was a fear that our people would lose the identity. One of the great things that we were able to do is we knew how to talk to each other. Whereas the straight world didn't know they did ads like jumping out of aeroplanes with parachutes on, you know, and and of course, I mean, we know what the fuck. And I remember I used to go around the country riding on toilet walls. Um um no, come up the bum, you know, or, um yes, a mosquito can give you AIDS if it doesn't wear a condom. You know, just stuff like that. Just it was just graffiti because you're just doing [00:45:30] anything, anything you can. Oh, God. I've just revealed myself as a graffiti artist, but But you were that was just you. And that was especially in the time when the Health Department was taking over the language and the way to get those messages out and because they weren't getting out. Our men were dying. And it was only when when our men kind of reclaimed some of that stuff and started putting our own stuff together. The early stuff had to be underground because it was the only only way that you could get kind of get the message across. What [00:46:00] was it like losing so many friends? I mean, I imagine for a lot of people that would happen later in life. But actually, for somebody in their thirties, what was What was it like? This will sound tough, but you grow to accept it. You just grow to accept it. Um, the harder ones were the suicides because they never, sometimes even their families didn't know why that had happened. And there were quite a number of suicides. Um, [00:46:30] but you knew in the family you didn't have to ask if someone committed suicide. You you knew what it was. Um um that the harder things were things like going to some of the funerals where, um it was in the family had asked that nobody was to know that he was gay. And so you're there and they're pleading with you not to, You know, that they want that kept secret. And, of course, you've had to go through a journey of, of [00:47:00] reaching, becoming an honest man, and then you're caught out of love and respect for them, but also in conflict because you know that he didn't tell his family, but he he was out inside his environment. So those those those some of those funerals were tough. Um, but some of them were amazing, too. Some of them were fucking amazing. I remember one guy. He was a naughty boy. He really he was He's a very naughty boy, but he'd grown up high church, Roman Catholic, And at the funeral, there was a Maria was sung and on one side of the the the, [00:47:30] um church was all his biological family. And on the other side was this the gay family and very many manifestations. Anyway, it was all very high church all the way through. And then, as as the coffins being taken out, his voice comes over a recording of his voice, which can be particularly unnerving when he's in the box, you know? And he said, this is, uh I I'd finally like to leave you with this with this last message. We're carrying the coffin out and out comes Donna Summers. Bad girls. You know, it was just and you just went. Oh, fuck. Oh, fuck. [00:48:00] That is so good. That is so good. So, you know, there was. There was, uh, there was great stuff in there, too. But it was, um it was stuff that had its feet on the cold concrete. You know, it was having to deal. It was dealing with the real real, the real things. But the unknown made it. The unknown known made it, um, quite a hard thing. One of the interesting things I found, uh, visiting San Francisco recently was that there is a whole segment in, um, gay [00:48:30] Castro That doesn't exist. You know, there's a whole age group that just are very minimal. And I'm I'm guessing that's probably the same in New Zealand Where, um, that number of people taken out of society, society, um, kind of travels with you, So I mean, like your your age group. Hm? Yep. Yep. That's true. That's that's just a fact. Um, it's just a fact. And, um, um, the benefits [00:49:00] are that those of us who and it was only fate. It was only fate that, you know, I was living in tape. There's not a lot of gay people are calling into, you know, um um and that was a time Fortunately, by the time I left, I had the information, but, um um, very careful men, um, very informed men also died, you know, because is an element of luck in it. That's just [00:49:30] the hard truth. Um, so, yeah, there's a gap. There's a gap, but where I sometimes think it where you notice it is I'm I'm really interested in in the changes in queer language. And you can see this gap where there's a whole piece of queer language is not known, and that was that died out with those guys in there. There's only a few people who've kind of got through who can who still use that, who can still understand that. So what? What are some examples? Well, most people talk about Pila, which is, you know, Piri, which is stuff that came into New Zealand [00:50:00] with the Merchant Navy and on Julian and Sandy. But there's other things like, um counting, that's that's counting. It's also similar to the counting in the fairgrounds. Um, there's, um um terms like to describe it to me a bit more. Sorry, I thought, Well, this it's a It's a gay counting. That's how he counted. It was 123456789 10. OK, but that language is quite similar to the language of the underground language of prostitutes and the underground language of the fairgrounds. But [00:50:30] but other terms, like a wait to was a Waikato policeman and they had it was because they was talking about them having big asses because their pants were so baggy. But or Commodores Commodores were the cars in the eighties that were the plain clothes car or cop was called a Commodore because all of their plain clothes car cars were Commodores. Everybody knew what they were. But those those words you you Most people don't know them anymore. But they come from that. That little group. And, um um, So people [00:51:00] know the older and people knew know the new kind of texting language or the or the online acronym? They know all that, uh, acronyms. But there's this little piece in the middle that's that's not so well known. And who is a Maori? It's a cross between Maori and English that's not known, which is a more of a thing of, um, to be and true. You know, true, behold, like totally. But today we go totally, you know. So, um, this is yeah. So [00:51:30] there there is in that in that group that's kind of dropped down, and it didn't completely drop out because none of those things are discrete, completely discrete. Um, there there is. There is a lot of stuff, and I think that if you look at us historically, the stories that run through that space are the ones that reach the media and the oral histories because we can't get to so many of those men. They're harder to patch together. That's that space in there, especially with those oral histories. Disagree with the overground narrative of the birth of the tribes and all. All that sort of stuff. [00:52:00] Do you think that loss of, uh, people in the eighties and nineties, um also, you know, we lost potential leaders? We lost, um, people who now would be seen as the kind of elders of the LGBT community? No, no, no, I Because I don't think, um, II I tend not to look at in, in, in a deficit model. I just think, um, that those those men gave us something. They they are not turning them into martyrs. [00:52:30] But they Yeah, they They taught us that if you don't become political, it has a terrible cost. If you don't take control of your own communication, it has a terrible cost. So today we have, you know, the website. You're putting this on all these things. They exist as good things because there was a time when they didn't exist, and we saw the consequences of that. And even though that may not be logically put together it is a consequence of a knowing that is [00:53:00] a is cumulative. And so, you know, our people. I mean, I could be 12 years old again, back in, and I could contact Rainbow Youth on my computer. Fuck that wasn't there in the 19 sixties, you know? So we we understand, as a people the importance of not only telling our own stories, but also of activating media and and and and making sure that the way our stories are told are more authentically our own rather than being grafted onto a sensationalised [00:53:30] other picture. My third encounter with you was, uh, at the Asia Pacific Out games. Uh, the human rights conference where you were giving a paper on do And, um, yeah, I'm really fascinated by the idea of hidden histories of language that is maybe being lost, that that that are used in specific groups. Can you tell me where that interest comes from? For you? Um um, I like quite honest people, and, um [00:54:00] and so within that, uh, I'm not glorifying sex trade because there's some some crap stuff about it, But but I'm also not dismissing it because there's some really good stuff in there, but the same way as with you doing this. You realise when in the broader narrative of what it is to be in New Zealand, when there's a gap and there's a gap, there's a gap so that most people didn't even know there are sex workers. Even if you go, I can take you through truth in 1914, 15, 16 and here they all are. People go, ah, you know and [00:54:30] and and the concept of it is juice biglow male gigolo, you know, and you go Fuck, fuck. No, no, no, no, no. And and so I just think that it's important. It's also important for our own people for us to understand that there are dimensions to being gay. It's not a singular thing. It's not a monolithic construction. And, um, and also for people to realise that sex workers are not, um, tragic school dropouts who are junkies who you know, will steal [00:55:00] the eye out of a needle. It's it's it's another industry, it's another industry. So I was really interested in in kind of going back and trying to, um, get some of that narrative, and I did some of it through oral histories. And they were some of the most interesting interviews, like interviews with elderly men in state houses up and above Wellington. You know, and and who. When they start talking, they slip into the language and all the stuff comes out. Just just wonderful stuff. That's the richness of oral histories. And, um, but I was [00:55:30] really interested in this language because it's not the same as gay language because not all male sex workers were gay and, um and there's like gay language doesn't have a lot of word for a lot of words for money, Whereas that's an important one. They don't have names for clients. So while they might have similar words for the police, there are other areas that are quite different. So I was interested in kind of trying to get this other stuff so that people didn't just go, Ah, male sex workers. They must be the the sleazy gay young gay guys, [00:56:00] which it's not, you know, it's a it's a definite It was never a culture that was well accepted into gay society anyway. Um, and it's never been that accepted into, um, the women's sex work. And so It's set as a kind of a strange, isolated little phenomenon, and I'm just interested in in those parts that they become enrichments to what it is to be a New Zealander, you know. So how did you find people to talk to networks? Same way you do. We just use networks. And that's the wonderful [00:56:30] thing about inside researchers. We just the families, a grape vine and and with it comes your authenticity. People go, you can talk to him. He's alright. He's family. And that's the That's the hidden part. I mean, I'll do this interview with you because I trust you. If you were from Metro, I'd be guarding this very different, even though it's still going in the public domain. And and that's the one of the great things that that our people can do as inside researchers is that we have. Although we have a very high [00:57:00] responsibility then because we live in that same community or or love people in that same world that we're trying to document, Um, it means that we can get to stuff other people can't, and that's a good thing. Talking to those older men about, um, male prostitution did anything surprise you? The humanity, the humanity. And no, it didn't surprise me. It just reminded me again. And that Think [00:57:30] the strength, the fucking strength of some of those people. You know, um, you know, Mark Gleeson's very rough hotel down the bottom of town. Some of the stories and the dealings with the police were just Fuck, I thought we had it rough. Nothing compared Nothing compared, um, just the tenacity of some people, and you go, Jesus, don't start whipping about what a hard life you've got you Nothing compared, but more than that was the I. [00:58:00] You know, I can think of one worker who, um um uh he worked both as a man and as a woman, but he he he does prison visits all the time. Still, he's retired, you know, um, prison visits. He's in the Maori Women's Welfare League, and he's a good man, just a really, really great man. And, uh and that's the thing that sometimes, you know, my dad used to say this thing about sometimes through the hottest fire comes the strongest iron, and I know it's a kind of a an old cliche saying, but [00:58:30] it's It's actually very true of some men, some of them men who've paid pretty rough costs. But they don't see that as part of their persona. They they give a great deal back. A great deal back, you know, from oftentimes to a society that often times treated them like shit, you know? But it's not revenge. It's just compassion. And that's a pretty cool thing, you know, to get to. Yeah, your film boy from 2004. Kind of brings all those threads together in terms of, you know, male prostitution, [00:59:00] small town, Um, your kind of creative, uh uh, energy. And, um, by the way, I love your visual aesthetic. It's just amazing. Um uh, talk to me about that film. Is it something that could have been done any earlier in New Zealand than 2004? Do you think it's an interesting question? It it didn't. I wasn't waiting for permission to do it. Um, stylistically, I don't think it could have happened much earlier because it was draw. It drew a lot of [00:59:30] its, um, its aesthetic of music videos. Um, and I was interested in how it might tell the story. in a way a music video would. But music videos would never tell a story like that. So it was kind of looking at the hegemonic construction of society as music videos, using their device, but telling a story they wouldn't touch and and T VCs it looked a little bit like a television commercial in parts. So in that regard, the subject Fuck it. People were talking about male prostitution back in the thirties. You can still [01:00:00] trace it back through literature. So, um no, no, I don't think, um I mean, I wrote my first book of queer short stories and it was published in 1982 or something. It's not if you if you if you think you'll do it, you do it, you know? So I, I don't know. I don't think it was waiting for its time. It just But stylistically, it was much more of a of of a period. Do you think it was harder to make a queer story? Yeah, because you pay a cost because then everybody [01:00:30] wants to put in the the Queer ghetto and go. So what's your next film? About what queer Thing is your next film about and you go. Actually, my next film was about paedophilia. I go Oh, and you go, I'm I'm interested in the human condition, you know, in in what it is. It was about a false accusation of paedophilia, and, uh, and it was sort of like, Well, that's a bit strange. You're going off the off the the mark. And and but one of the things I've got I'm really quite staunch about is, um, Just because you are Maori or gay or whatever else [01:01:00] does not give people permission, even your own people to put you in a shoebox and go that that's that's the definition of your territory. No, no, no. Fuck that. That that queerness is is a a ticket to being able to talk about the human condition, and, uh and you look at people, you know, I look at, um, people like that talking about the same thing way, way back, same issue going I would going I might talk about some stuff, but don't assume that I'm only going to talk about queer stuff. Yeah, [01:01:30] that's just and that's not post gay. That's just common sense, you know? Well, speaking of words, what word would you use to describe yourself? Or words? Uh, you know, a gay queer. What would you go for? I still use gay. I mean, I. I know I use queer sometimes in academic writing, but, um um I heard it called out too many times for it to really set anything more than just a kind of a literary term. It doesn't sit right, um, gay, But but really, part of me would just rather use the term [01:02:00] fuck off. You know, just like who cares? Really? Really. I'd really if If if if I was known as a good man, that would be a cool term, you know, or, um, uh, kind or thoughtful or strong. Those things help. But, you know, I don't want people to introduce themselves as a heterosexual. I'm not particularly interested. I just want to know, in case I don't make an embarrassing, you know, um, assumption, Like, you know, when they invite you to try and hook you up with their sister or whatever. You know, I don't Yeah, but But that's the [01:02:30] only That's the only kind of declaration that I want to. Um and and that's quite cool. Now, is that? You know, a lot of a lot of our younger gay men don't, um it's not hiding sexuality. It's just going I I'd rather not have that as the major thing you use to determine who I am, but But if the issue comes up, I'm fucking in there like a like a rot wheeler, because I, you know, very defensive of of of, uh, Of gay men. Yeah. [01:03:00] So with boy, it was, um was it it was nominated for a A short, short, short listed. What did that mean for you? Well, it was funny, because it it got really bad reviews in New Zealand. It was It was put in the New Zealand Film Festival and it got slated. Absolutely slated. And the same is with muted the film that followed it. Munter didn't even get selected for the New Zealand Film festival, but it won Lucerne, and it's it's won all these awards overseas, but still hasn't screened here. Still hasn't screened it, won't it won't. [01:03:30] It's just but I don't make my work for New Zealand anymore. I love this country, and I the stories from it feed what I do. But I don't make it. I don't make the work going. I want, you know I will make this. So it fits New Zealand sensibility. And so there's no boy doesn't look like a I mean I can The the setting is recognisable, but it's not stylistically, a New Zealand short film. It's it's doesn't belong anywhere. It's it's just a different way of talking and muted. Looks like [01:04:00] the 1961 New Zealand. But it's it's not a New Zealand looking film. It certainly packs a lot of kick for like when they didn't accept it in the New Zealand Film Festival. Apparently the response was was too long and too dark. Fuck, it was dark. It was telling a shitty story. But it was a true story, you know? So so I don't know. I don't know I. I just, um I'm very proud. I'm very proud to be, you know, be here and be a New Zealander. A lot of my stuff [01:04:30] is interested in the rural because that's a that's where I grew up, and, uh and that's kind of where I live still and, um and and it's easy for me to talk from a voice that I understand. And that's why sometimes queer things come into my work, because that's a voice. I understand. But, you know, so do academic voices and a whole lot of other voices that, you know, like my I like building houses. Those things come into a sort of that kind of answer it It does. I I I'm wondering what [01:05:00] what effect on you does it have? Uh, not having a New Zealand audience. Sometimes it feels sad. And that's because the people who help no film is one person's thing, and the amount of generosity and talent that goes into that, um, is phenomenal. And I've worked with people who, um, I'm in awe of just both for their talent and their goodness, you know, just for their their their belief in something, Um, and the difficulty is that their friends don't get to see [01:05:30] it, you know, they can give them a DVD. But you know, you make it with the production value, so it works on a screen with all its nuances of sound and all its grade. All that stuff is sitting there. You get it. Um, DVD is fuck. It's tragic, you know, it's not. It's not so good. It's not so good. Um and so you know, you you're sitting over in Berlin watching the thing or you you, you you're in, um, in, you know, or wherever and it's beautiful. It's playing up there and you go Fuck, no one will ever see this here in New Zealand. No one will see it like this. [01:06:00] You know, no one will see it. And it's funny. The university tomorrow it's screening. The university is putting a screening down at the, um, cinema, uh, academy. But that's just because it was part of my professor professorial address. And, um, because I wanted to do the address on practise led scholarship not, you know, on creative scholarship. And so that was the first. A few people saw it here. And, uh so they've asked for another, another screening. But it's but that's just kind of in house. But I don't know, I just [01:06:30] you know, all I really want, because I'm not. I don't not a person who's hugely swayed by awards or anything. All I want is enough so I can get money to make another film, and that's it. And then I want to make the best film I can. That's it. I don't give a fuck about the, you know, when When Boy was in the New York Film Festival and you're standing up there, they put a fucking spot spotlight on you. All these people standing up who you don't know, standing up, giving you an ovation, and you just go. What the fuck is this? It doesn't doesn't register, but on the walk [01:07:00] home, you're thinking I wonder if that will help me get some more funding. I wonder if I can get to make my next piece, and that's what it is. So fuck the fuck the glamour. I'm not not interested in that. I just If I If I could get me my next piece finance, that'd be cool. It'd be cool.

IRN: 603
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ATL REF: OHDL-004047
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089341
TITLE: Richard Galloway - Older Gay Men
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Richard Galloway
INTERVIEWER: John Kelly
TAGS: 1950s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Lesbian Elders Village; OUTLine NZ; Older Gay Men; Richard Galloway; United Arab Emirates; elder care; elder issues; elders; family; friends; gay; homosexual law reform; labels; legacy; older age; relationships; rest homes; retirement; social; sport
DATE: 1 October 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Richard talks about what it's like to be an older gay man in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Now you're only 61. Yes. Did you retire this week? Like I got sick of work. Really? OK, are you gonna stay retired? Uh, something will turn up it. It usually does. Uh I don't know what, but, uh, something will turn up. So you you actually you're not looking for work at the moment. No, no. Taking a taking a break? Yes. Are [00:00:30] you planning to travel? Possibly. I've I've done a lot of travel in my life, and and I now find it, um, punishment. Really? Airports are dreadful, and I don't like being treated like a sheep and queuing to chicken, queuing for customs, queuing for immigration, queuing to go through security, queuing to get on the aeroplane. [00:01:00] So I'm off travel. You've, um how long you been running your own business? I've had quite a few businesses. The art hire business I've had for 10 years, but I've sort of wound it down. It didn't really survive the financial crisis. So have you always lived in New Zealand? I was born in new market, so I haven't come [00:01:30] far because I still live in new market. But I have lived overseas in Thailand for a year and I worked in the United Arab Emirates for five years and tell me what you were doing there. Um, I was doing nothing, really? In Thailand and us doing air traffic control in the Emirates. For how long? How long were you doing the air traffic control? About 25 years altogether. [00:02:00] When you're over there, um, the gay activities is Condoned in those countries. No, it wasn't. Um, but there are a lot of men who have sex with men, mainly because for the locals, they don't have access to women. Uh, and for other expatriates, particularly the Indian and Pakistani, They're there as, um, unaccompanied men [00:02:30] and their families are usually back in the country they come from. Did you ever have any trouble with, uh, well, either here or overseas stemming from being gay? No. Uh, when I first started with this company in the Middle East, I went through Bahrain and had two overnight there, and I was asked or met by some of the other staff of the company, [00:03:00] and they said, Oh, you know, you've got to watch this guy at the airport. You're going to you know, he's one of those and And I said, Oh, that's good. That'll give us something in common. So that probably got the word around the company. But nothing was ever said And never any problems. Have you been married? Never. No Children. And I've got a question here about How do you feel about your line stopping with you? In that case? [00:03:30] No, it doesn't worry me at all. No problem. Do you have brothers and sisters? I've got an older brother. Um, he is two years older and he's married with three Children. Have you ever had any steady relationships? Yes. Um, my first relationship was a long time ago now, uh, for four years and then another one after that for two years. But [00:04:00] since then, they both went off and married women, had Children and got divorced. But I still hear from him, you know, um, over 30 years later. Oh, it's great, isn't it? So what? What effect did the legalisation of homosexuality have on your life in 1986? Not a lot. Uh, I never had [00:04:30] great problems being gay. There wasn't, uh, at Auckland Airport when I was working there as an air traffic controller. I in the senior air traffic control staff. There was a bit of a Catholic Mafia, and one of them tried to bring the homosexual law reform petition in to have it signed. And so I just picked it up and threw it in the rubbish tin. And again, nothing was ever [00:05:00] said. How do you describe your gay self happy? Do you have a particular word for yourself? No I. I usually gay, but, uh, I'm not fussy. You don't mind being described as queer? Uh, I don't like the word queer, because to me, it does negative connotations from years ago. [00:05:30] If it's mainly I think with younger people, and if they want to use it, that's fine. But to me, it doesn't really describe myself, but I don't have no objection If people call me queer. And what activities do you currently involve yourself with in the gay world? Uh, I play every week in the gay badminton club on Saturday for a couple of hours, and [00:06:00] as you said, I've just resigned. Um, retired from outline the New Zealand Gay Lesbian transgender telephone counselling and community service. Uh, and I was involved with them for sort of 10 years as a volunteer and another 54 or five years as an office administrator. And what what made you leave there? [00:06:30] I just thought it was time for a change. Really? And been there too long. OK, you were involved in a a little while this gay men's elder community questionnaire. Hm? Can you tell me something about that? A friend of mine, Mike Keegan, and I were discussing it once, and he is at a stage in his life where he's needs to look at going to some sort of care. [00:07:00] And so we decided we'd test the the market, so to speak. Um, there was anecdotal evidence of need, And, uh, so we just thought we were better prove it first before we do anything else with it. And it showed quite conclusively that this definite market for a gay men's elder community [00:07:30] um, what shape that eventually takes, uh is open and there are quite a few options. And if there's enough interest, is there anyone seriously contemplating building such a place or building may not be an option. Um, whether it might be taking over a wing in an existing retirement home or one of the thoughts is to [00:08:00] target a central apartment building, and people just buy into that building. That would also open up the option for people to rent, which isn't available in present retirement circumstances. Uh, and then once you've got a critical mass, you can each put in and rent another apartment and have a carer in there. And apartment [00:08:30] buildings generally have gyms and swimming pools and close to central facilities. So, as I say, there are quite a few options. Would that be open to women as well. Gay women? Well, the there is the Lesbian Elders Village Trust, which is, um, working towards the same end. But they're focused on buying something. [00:09:00] Um, there seems to be a a difference of opinion as to whether they want to be in the city or, uh, some of them want to be out in the country raising organic chickens and things. You have any thoughts on how gay life has changed for you in your lifetime? I think it's definitely more accepted, and people know about it now, [00:09:30] and people are willing to talk about it. And because the majority of gay people are out, families are are more aware of gay, lesbian, transgender people in their own family. Um, there may have always been rumours of, you know, Uncle Joe, or aren't or whoever, but, you know, now those people are out and generally [00:10:00] accepted in the family, and it's made people a lot more open, I think. So. What plans have you got for yourself As you get older and not a lot. Really. Um, generally move to something smaller and on one level, as, um, mobility decreases. Um, but [00:10:30] I haven't made any firm plans. It matter. Well, yes, I have a good one. As in water tight as in as water. Tight as I think I can. Um, and I've got power of attorney, um, as well. I've got a close group of gay friends. There's [00:11:00] eight of us that go out for dinner once a month, last Wednesday of the month, and we take turns at choosing the restaurant. And we've been doing this now for this is our 26th year. It's a long time. It's a long time. Um, so those people are family to me, and in fact, I'm the executor of, um, Wills for [00:11:30] two of them and hold power of attorney and some and and vice versa. And so we have a support sort of network. It sounds like you'd all look after each other if necessary as you get older. How it will work. Probably. How did you meet? Uh, it was mutual friends that had been going out for dinner on a sort of regular [00:12:00] basis. And, um, one night we decided, let's do this seriously. And, um, form a group. The group has expanded as people have had partners arrive, and some have had partners leave, um, as as happens. And but the only way you can get into the group is as a partner [00:12:30] now. Well, we've got eight, and and that's as many as you can cope with. It's a comfortable number around the table. Yes, yes, exactly. Any more than that. And, um, it does make conversation difficult. Not that ever seems to be a problem. Um, and some of those people I only see it once a month at the dinner group. Uh, others I'm in daily contact [00:13:00] with, um some I see every week, and we go out for coffee or chat on the phone and gossip and, well, how many of the original group are still in it. Oh! Oh, yes, yes. Uh, so far, um, all pretty healthy, Really. And most of us, the youngest is 55 [00:13:30] and the oldest is coming up 70. Well, let's hope you will stay healthy for a long time yet. Well, agreed. How do you want to be remembered with a smile? I think with a smile. OK, any any advice for young, gay gay people these days? I think it's very important to accept your yourself as [00:14:00] who you are and and not be afraid to change or of be afraid of change. Um, because we all change as time goes on and and to make the most of being young.

IRN: 600
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/older_gay_men_ed_jenner.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004046
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089340
TITLE: Ed Jenner - Older Gay Men
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ed Jenner
INTERVIEWER: John Kelly
TAGS: 1940s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Ed Jenner; HIV / AIDS; Herne Bay House; John Kelly; Kent; United Kingdom; ageing; arts; bullying; crafts; elder issues; elders; exercise; fitness; gay; health; identity; knitting; legacy; older age; profile; relationships; retirement; sport; support; volunteer
DATE: 19 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Ed talks about what it's like to be an older gay man in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I was the big 65 this year, so I've just started getting the pension right. Where did you Where did you grow up? I grew up the biggest town in North Kent in England. Um, graves in. But I was actually born in and brought up in the next sort of like a suburb called North Fleet and fleets, a subsidiary of the Thames, A small river off of the Thames. Can you talk to me about knitting? [00:00:30] Oh, Oh, yes. I'm a great knitter. Um, I've got two older sisters and mum. They all used to knit. And so I think not that my brother learned to knit, but I just Just something that I learned to do. How? How old were you then? You know, probably teenager. Probably. Maybe a bit younger. I'm not sure you got any has with has from other guys with nothing? Well, no, because I, I only [00:01:00] knitted at home and later I've knitted, um on ferries and stuff like that just to fill in the time. Right. Were you aware that you were gay from an early age then? Well, I don't know whether I knew I was gay, and I don't know whether I I never, ever thought I was different. Um, Mum and dad totally accepted who I was. I mean, there was never any talk about it. Um, but I always say to people, [00:01:30] I was I was gay when I came out of the world. So OK, did you have any problems when you when you're in England? Um I mean, everyone sort of says, um, you know, you must have had problems and bullying and all this, but I think because I was happy with who I was, um, one just learns to I mean, I went to a really rough all my all boys school, and I just learned [00:02:00] to become like the mole running errands for the gang leaders. You you just learn to, um, look after yourself. So, I I never had any problems. It's great, isn't it? It is. What word would you or did you use to describe your gay self when you were younger? I don't think I did. I was just me because the word camp used to be in in my youth. Anyway, the word camp was a was a useful word. Um, I think people might have used [00:02:30] it about me, but I never used it about myself. So what do you call yourself these days? Oh, I'm a poofter, you know? Do you normally think of yourself as that? Um, when I talk to people and and that and, you know, because nowadays I just talk to anyone about it, I always say, I'm a, um Some gay men don't have much to do with women. You're You're an exception in that. I think through your theatrical [00:03:00] life, I has to Yeah, I think. And most of most of my closest friends are women. Yeah, Um, not that. And I mean, amazingly not that I've ever had sex with a woman, So OK, how long since you've been in a stable relationship? God, I can't think that far back. What do you mean by stable? More than a day, more than a day I went. I went to probably the last [00:03:30] long term. I went over to Australia to we met here in in New Zealand in 91. I think it was so 91 92. So whatever that is 20 years ago. Well, the age you are now would you like to be in a personal relationship? No. Do you have any regrets about your gay life? Um, No. None at all. You're an unusual man. [00:04:00] Do you consider yourself? Well, I just I I'm I'm just me. And that's how I was. I mean, whether I was gay or whether I had ingrown toenails. I mean, that's just me. Do you consider yourself retired now? Um, well, I haven't. I was in I was a computer programmer from the sixties, and I mean, late sixties. Um, and I finally got out of out of that [00:04:30] career. Just, um, was just all too much for me. I just didn't want to do it. Um, when I was 51. So I actually haven't worked in my career since I was 51. Well, you were involved with her bay house, I think, working with, um, AIDS AIDS victims, older people, younger people, all sorts. It was all sorts, um, both sexes. Both men and women and also Children. Um, so, yeah, it [00:05:00] was cross cross cross board. How did you keep yourself sane, if you like. Um, well, it was only two days a week, and I was I say I was fortunate my When I was 18, I met a lovely man who was like my mentor, and we were in a relationship for about five years. But he was 19 years older than me, and he was like my mentor. [00:05:30] And when I said I wanted to travel, he said, Well, that's all right. You know, I'll let you travel and blah, blah, blah. Um, and of course, we kept in touch with one another. And unfortunately, in 80 87 88 he was diagnosed with HIV and I went back to England from here. He was given three days to live, and I flew back from here to look after him, got him out of hospital, and [00:06:00] he lived for another eight weeks. And I just think I was just so fortunate to be with him for that time and that that just that just helped me to work at Home Bay House. But, you know, everyone says, Oh, it must become easier, but it doesn't because it's a life, because it's not something I'd I'd be happy about doing. Well, I just think I'm for you. You're just I'm fortunate [00:06:30] in helping them on that journey because they're totally reliant on you. And I think it must be like, you know, the closest. Because I've never had Children, so I wouldn't know. But I think it's the closest to like being a parent, because that person, that child or that person that's dying is dependent on you, And you just, you know, just have to do it. Or did you look after a lot of people, or did you look after individuals? So, no, [00:07:00] um, there was one caregiver on a day, so there was a nurse and a care giver, plus the management staff and a cook. And so you just had to do all the jobs, so it depended. Who was there? Um, so you just had to, you know, took them for, um, appointments. Helped them washing and all this stuff. And is it a house or places like that? They still no, Um, because of the [00:07:30] modern drugs, Um, people are living a lot lot better lives and and can sustain themselves in the community and go back to work. Um, her bay house I left. I was only there for two years. I left in 2003, and I think it closed because of lack of clients in about 2004. It's good. Good, actually, isn't it? Yeah. And and of course, um and of course, hospices [00:08:00] and stuff were then accepting HIV people because prior to that, they they wouldn't take them in, you know? So how do you keep fit these days? Well, just before you came today, I did my hours walk around west Haven. I came home. I help an elderly lady at the moment who's 89 at the end of the month, and I do little jobs for her. So I came home from her and put on my walking gear, and I do an hour's [00:08:30] walk from here, right around West Haven up Hill? No, not, um Karen Street. And, um and I'm also a swimmer. I, um I've actually represented New Zealand as a swimmer in gay games several times, I think. Yeah. Um, Amsterdam, Sydney and Cologne. And then last year, we had the Asia Pacific Out games in Wellington, and so [00:09:00] I was down there with Queen of the whole universe and also swam, came home with three gold medals so well done. So I should be having a ceremony tonight with, um with, uh, Valerie Adams. You got a great That is your home in Morgan Tree. It? Yes, been mortgage free. I had the I bought the house in 83 and I was mortgage three and 86. [00:09:30] Well done. So, at your age, what support are you? Go. What support are you going to need as you get older? Well, as I say, I haven't worked in my career since I was 51. So one learns to, um, live to one's needs and means. And, um so now that I'm getting the super government super, um, it's the icing on the cake. So, um, I can't believe every fortnight [00:10:00] this money goes into my account. Do you have any family in New Zealand? I've got a brother. He he married a New Zealander with a a ready made family. She had three Children. So I've got, um, two nieces and a nephew. But the nephew now lives in Norway. He travelled and met a Norwegian, and so he's there with four Children. I've got two nieces here, and I've just spent two weeks with one of the nieces in Rarotonga. [00:10:30] She's over there working OK, so what does the future hold for you? As you as you grow older? Oh, I just live every day. I just I mean, I don't have a bucket list. Um, and I still do things like, um, two or three years ago, Um, I was down in Queenstown, and so of course I had to do a bungee. So, um, it's I'm that sort of person. [00:11:00] It's the Now you do it now. OK, well again. Yes. A water tide will in that water, as I think it can be. I mean, I've checked. I've checked with a friend who's a family lawyer. Um, and because I'm not married or whatever he said, my siblings, you know, I can't have any say on my world. So, um [00:11:30] I mean, one of my siblings is in in the world, but the others aren't. So, um, so there's not gonna be any problem with the world. Well, I'll be dead, so I won't care. Um, I, I know you're probably aged disgracefully, but how do you actually see yourself in 15 or 20 years time? Well, 20 years time, I'd probably be dead because I I tell everybody I'm dying on my 84th birthday. I [00:12:00] I've worked with enough elderly people that, um I see them go downhill after about 84. So, um, I'd probably still be alive. But this is what I'm telling you. And because I was born on April 4th day on my fourth birthday, they're all gonna be around the bed, and I'm gonna go and they're all gonna go. Oh, he's dead. He's dead. And then I'm gonna sit up and say april 4th and then go and then go. All right? Hm? [00:12:30] How do you want to be? How do you expect to be remembered apart from the man who popped up from his death bed and who died again? Well, I I'm my My full name is Edward Jenner. And in history, Edward Jenner actually discovered smallpox vaccine. And so I tell everybody that I've done it in another life, so I don't have to do it now. So they remember me for my smallpox vaccine. [00:13:00] So what advice would you offer today to any young gay men? Particularly those who are having problems? Well, I think you've got to You've got to be happy with who you are, and and live it to your own. You know your own truth. It doesn't matter that somebody else does. XYZ you You've got to find what's your truth, and you've got to try and at the same time [00:13:30] not cause ripples. You know, um, you can have a wonderful, wonderful life And you, But you and I mean, I'm out there. I mean, I wear colour. I mean, I mean, most people would know that I'm gay and over the top, Um, and I've been like that all my life, and I'd say touch wood. But, I mean, I've I've never had any any problems of, you know, bullying or fighting or, um but no, be true to yourself and [00:14:00] be happy.

IRN: 610
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_politicians_maryan_street.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004045
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089339
TITLE: Maryan Street - Rainbow Politicians
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Maryan Street
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Benji Watt; Charles Chauvel; Chris Carter; Chris Finlayson; Georgina Beyer; Grant Robertson; HIV / AIDS; Jan Logie; Kevin Hague; Louisa Wall; Marilyn Waring; Maryan Street; Nelson; New Plymouth; New Zealand Labour Party; Parliament buildings; Queer Politicians; Rainbow Room; Robert Muldoon; Tim Barnett; activism; blood donation; discrimination; family; gender identity; health; health system; homosexual law reform; law; lesbian; marriage equality; mental health; politics; prison; profile; public figure; relationships; social justice; transgender
DATE: 20 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Maryan Street from the Labour Party talks to Benji Watt about what it's like to be a Member of Parliament.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm great. Thank you. All the better for having your presence in my office, Ben. Thank you. So you're Marion Street? Marion Street, a member of Parliament. Um, in my seventh year. So is that like, second term or third? Third term? Yeah, we've got three year terms, So this is my third term as a member of parliament. So, um, where are you from? Uh, born in New Plymouth originally. But, um, spent most of my adult [00:00:30] life in Auckland 27 years or so in Auckland, Uh, and then moved to Wellington because of my job. And now I'm I I'm I go between Nelson and Wellington now, so I work out of Nelson mostly. Where's your, like, MP base? Where? Nelson Nelson as my as my MP base. Um, this is my wellington office, obviously. Um, but, um, Nelson is where I'm based as a list MP and I've been there [00:01:00] for the last five years. So, um, I lived there and and work there. So why did you want to go into politics? Um, I've I don't recall a time when I wasn't in politics. Oh, yes, I do. Um, when I was at university. I wasn't very politically, um, a tune. I was very active and all sorts of other things, but not, uh, not politics. And, um, it was, um, towards the end of the seventies, when my political awareness started to sharpen [00:01:30] up. So I was 20 early twenties at that point, and, um and then I started to become aware, painfully aware of of injustice, really around me and inequity, Um, particularly as a woman. But, um, And then, increasingly, as I understood my own sexuality, um, around, uh, around gay politics as well. What was it like when you found out that you were becoming an MP? Oh, [00:02:00] it was something that wasn't a surprise to me. I've been very involved in politics for a long time. By then, I'd been the president of the Labour Party in the 19 nineties, and I'd stood down from that because my partner and I at the time, uh, had a daughter who was, um, just about to start school. And I wanted to be out of the public eye, uh, before she started school. So we, um I [00:02:30] waited, um, 10 years until until my daughter was old enough to contribute to the decision and, um, and came into Parliament when she was 15. So she's, uh, she's all grown up, but she has grown up with politics as well. Is she going to be in politics when she's older? Well, she's just finished her degree in majoring in political studies, so something's rubbed off. But, uh, I don't know that she'll want to be an MP, but she's very interested in [00:03:00] policy work. How's it? How has being a MP changed? You? Um, you have to get used to, um, the intrusion, the public intrusion on your life. So there isn't much that's private. I try never to do interviews in my home, uh, in order to protect that area so that, um, people can't comment on the kind of house I have, and it's just a level of self protection [00:03:30] that's important. And, um, I think because I'm I'm usually a very sociable and domestic person, and I like to have people to dinner, for example, at my house, I the number of times in a year I can do that is severely restricted because of my workload, and, um and so it's a real treat for me when I can. I can get some friends I really love around to dinner. And [00:04:00] and that's, um that's a great treat for me, but I don't do it as often as I'd like to. So that kind of intrusion, the workload intrusion on private life and, um, the fact that, um, you're never off duty as an MP, you're never off duty. There's always something happening. It's not just that. It's wherever you are. You are an MP. So you can't. Um, [00:04:30] uh, it it you have to leave the country to get any sort of anonymity. Um, and And I don't get to do that very often. Occasional holiday. Um uh, I. I had one. I had one last year and, well, beginning of this year overseas, uh, over Christmas, and it was fantastic. Just walking around and and knowing that nobody knew who you were was [00:05:00] fantastic. Yeah, Yeah, it was great. I did happen to run into people I knew because I was in London. So you do tend to run into New Zealanders there. Um, but, um but it was It was great. It was really good. So what is the Rainbow Room. The rainbow room is a room that, um as some of us rainbow MP S decided would be, um, a good thing to have in parliament. We've got a Maori Affairs Select Committee [00:05:30] room. We and that has been around for a very long time. There's a very old Maori Affairs Select Committee room, and the one I took you to was the newer one. Um, but that that's been around for a very long time. In fact, the old one is called Native Affairs. That's how old it was. So, um, there's a Pacifica Pacific Island. Uh uh, select committee room. There was a women's one which some of my colleagues in the eighties agitated to to have. And that's got photos of, [00:06:00] uh, every woman MP that's ever been here. Um, around the walls. Um, I don't know whether they've updated it recently. I haven't been in to have a look, so I should go, and I know, I know. I know what it was. It happened in the nineties because it was for the 100th anniversary of women's suffrage. Um, that that came about. And I think they stopped the photos at 1993 so I don't think there's been any photos added since since then. That's [00:06:30] what I remember now. Yeah. Um and so some of us thought it was high time after the homosexual law reform. Uh, in the 19 eighties, it was time to get a a rainbow room because we had a number of, uh, rainbow MP S, and, um and so we agitated. They were all in the Labour Party at that time. I wasn't in parliament, um, [00:07:00] as that movement started. Oh, gosh, no. Perhaps I was because I was there for the, um yeah, so it must have been after 2005, So by then, we I mean, we had Tim Barnett. Um, Chris Carter. We had, um, uh, Georgina by as the first transgender, uh, MP in the world, actually, Um, so they were, uh they were, [00:07:30] uh, all labour Charles Me, Grant Robertson. Now, um, Louisa Wall. So we've We've got a bit of a history of gay MP S in the Labour Party. And, um, and while Tim and Georgina and Chris are no longer MP S, um, we've still got got, uh, four of us in in the house. Um, now, uh, including, [00:08:00] um, Kevin Hague as well for the Green Party. And Jan Logie just joined. So that's three lesbian MP S now. So for a long time, I was the only lesbian MP in the house, and, um, was certainly the first out one. but, um, before that, of course, there was Marilyn Waring in the in the 19, uh, eighties, and that was a different era, different time. Uh, and it was [00:08:30] much more difficult for her to be out, Uh, at that time. So, uh, now we've the national Party has also got one gay MP Chris, who's the minister of arts, culture and Heritage and treaty settlements. And, um uh, um he's not quite as keen on advocating gay positions as as the rest of us are, in fact, just voted against the first reading of [00:09:00] the marriage equality bill. But there is that you'd have to ask him. I have no idea. I can't work it out. Are there other LGBTI Q politicians from the past that you admire? Oh, yes. I think Mari wearing did, um uh uh did a very good job in lots of ways, I think, uh, while many people knew she was gay. She she wasn't out publicly And Rob Rob [00:09:30] Muldoon, the prime minister at the time who was a tyrannical sort of a leader, used that against her and, uh, and made her life quite miserable. I mean, she was in his caucus, and, uh, and he made her life quite miserable in that regard. But we're long past. We're long past that, um, that stage where homosexuality is an accusation, Uh, it's not anymore. And, um and we are much more part of the wallpaper, [00:10:00] um, than we ever used to be. So I think those who have gone before me like Chris and Tim and Georgina have all been wonderful Trailblazers. What's it like being a lesbian in Parliament? Um, it's kind of unnoticeable. Really. Um, it's, um um I'm proud to be out and proud to, um, defend gay issues. [00:10:30] Um, and to represent them, um, my portfolio, my major portfolio is health. And I'm absolutely, uh, preoccupied with that where there are health issues that affect our queer communities. Then I'll advocate for those just recently, I wrote to Tony Ryan asking him about what moves have been made since they've been in government to improve access [00:11:00] to health care. Appropriate access to health care for transgender people. So I'm just waiting for the reply on that. Um, um, So I'm I'm happy to advance those issues, uh, within and outside of my portfolio. Certainly. If they come up, people would expect me to, uh, to advance those issues. And I do. So, um, apart from that, um, um, we're so normal that it's, um, not normalised, [00:11:30] um, that it's kind of not an issue on a day to day basis. It's only an issue as things come up. So I don't experience any discrimination. Um, the any novelty value has long since worn off. And there's certainly no, um, possibility that anybody could use it as a weapon against me because I've disarmed them on that front. Going to, um, talking about health. Um, [00:12:00] my mom's a nurse. Yeah. Um, that's really interesting because one of the questions I asked of of Tony Ryle was relating to the appropriate provision of health care and the mental health and safety of transgender prisoners. So I'll ask what I'll I'll be interested to see what he comes back with on that because I think It's a real issue because a lot of our transgender community, uh, end up in prison for one reason or another. And, um, [00:12:30] getting them put in the right prison is a hassle to start with and then getting them appropriate. Uh, appropriate care. Health care is, uh, is a real issue as well, and they are seriously at risk in prison. So I do have real concerns for them on, um, is it legal to give donate blood if you're a homosexual? No, Uh, a homosexual man. No. It seems to be all [00:13:00] right for women. Um, but no, there is a, um there is a prohibition. It's not a it's not a law, but it is, um, a prohibition that the New Zealand blood service, uh, still applies, uh, to gay men. Um, and just as recently as last year, we had in front of the Health Select Committee, we had the New Zealand blood service come up for financial review. And so I asked them about this very point, and I said, OK, [00:13:30] where are you up to? With dropping the blanket discrimination now that we've got, um, screening processes for, uh, for blood and and all blood now screened for HIV. Um, why do you stop? Stop gay men giving, uh, giving blood. And they still maintain that, Uh, it's a high risk group. Um, and the World Health Organisation standards [00:14:00] are such that this, um, blanket discrimination, um, applies in numbers of countries and and until such time as that is relaxed internationally or they don't feel they want to lead the way on that. Is there any way that parliament can actually intervene by that? By continuing to press the point? Um, and saying and certainly, um, if I were health [00:14:30] Minister, I would be keen to review that. I'm sure it can be done by regulation. It could certainly be done, but I would do it under advice. But it seems to me that given the the increasing prevalence of HIV in the heterosexual community, um, uh, it is still, um, a precautionary measure. Uh, that is used to that that discriminates against, [00:15:00] uh, against gay men. And, um and I think, um, that the the emergence, particularly through refugee communities and others of HIV and the heterosexual community, begins to erode the rationale for the discrimination against, uh against gay men. However, it is still true that gay men are a high risk, a higher risk [00:15:30] population. That why, um, a lot of people try not to, um, come out as their sexuality when they give donate blood. Well, I don't think they should. They should, um, They shouldn't conceal their sexuality. Um, uh, if they, uh if they know they're not at risk, and they they're absolutely certain they're not at risk. Um, then certainly they are being discriminated [00:16:00] against. Um, but that issue needs to be dealt with properly and and by by regulation and by agreement. So what's it like being a woman in parliament? Oh, uh, the over the last, I suppose, two decades or well, three decades now, I think, um, we have trained the men, [00:16:30] and we're getting a different breed of male MP coming through, which is great. Oh, well, you know, they they tend to be married to modern women, and they got to get with the programme. Um, the dinosaurs who who, um, would call you girly, um, have mainly died off. Um, nobody uses that kind of language now. [00:17:00] They used to, and you used to be put down for being a woman, but long before I came into Parliament. But it was prevalent in the sixties and seventies and eighties, and, um, but with a huge influx, I have to say of Labour women. And in 1984 with the fourth Labour Government came in. We had a huge influx of of women who were all stroppy and didn't put up with any of that crap. And so the men were trained fairly quickly. How did you cope with [00:17:30] the, um, with the anti homosexual statements in the debate, especially with same sex marriage? Oh, they were nowhere near as as vile or as hostile as the whole campaign for homosexual law reform in the eighties. So we've morphed with a evolved we've grown up and and what's left opposing us is a little, um, radical, usually religious [00:18:00] rump that will never be persuaded anyway. But they are so much in the minority now that really and truly they don't they shouldn't bother anybody. It was not like that in the eighties, and people were vilified, and it took a lot of courage for people to come out. These days, it's not a matter of courage. It's simply a matter of honesty.

IRN: 678
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_ellen.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004044
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089338
TITLE: Ellen - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Northland; Q12 (series); School's Out (Wellington); United Kingdom; Wellington; coming out; counselling; drag; family; friends; homophobia; internet; lesbian; music; musicals; peer support; reading; relationships; roller derby; school; sex; singing; support; television; writing; youth
DATE: 20 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Ellen talks about being young and lesbian in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? Um good. Yeah. Thanks. That's good. How are you? My name is Ellen. Um, I'm 22 and I'm studying counselling in Wellington in Wellington. So you're born and raised in Wellington? No, I'm from the UK. Originally, I was born in England, grew up in Scotland and moved to New Zealand when I was about 13 and grew up in Northland, north, Far north, north north, Not Wellington. [00:00:30] Northland up north. And so you're a facilitator? Yeah, I facilitate at schools out. And I'm also an education volunteer with them, too. That's fun. So can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Um uh, I guess I'm you know, I'm a youth worker. I'm studying counselling. [00:01:00] I enjoy watching trashy television in my spare time. Like I've recently discovered Xena and how amazing it is. It's so bad. But in such a good way. Um, going back to the Palestine sets, Um and I'm really nerdy. I like reading, and I like writing and learning to skateboard. Yeah. So, [00:01:30] um, what is your sex? I am female. What is your gender identity? Um, I. I mostly identify as female. Sometimes I identify as like a tomboy or a, uh, boy a little while ago, I did this really cool, um, social experiment for school where I presented as male for two weeks. And it kind of really opened up my mind to my own gender identity and [00:02:00] how it kind of might be to be Trans like, as much as anyone who sis can. Um, so that was really cool. And so now I'm kind of I see my gender as much more fluid than I used to. Hm. What is your sexual orientation? Oh, I'm a big homo. You're a big homo, A lesbian. I'm a big dick. And what is your culture? Identity to New Zealand European and you express [00:02:30] your let's start this again. You express yourself as a tomboy. I'm guessing. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definite tomboy. So likes And hobbies. Um, I like reading and writing. And, um, I love watching Roller Derby Roller Derby's awesome and hanging out with my friends. Um, I like playing ukulele. I'm not very good at it, [00:03:00] but I like it. Um, I like singing and musicals for which my older brother shuns me. But that's OK. He's allowed. He's allowed. He told me off a little while ago for coming out as a musical lover. He was most disgusted. Why? I know he He thinks that we as a society should shun people who randomly burst into song strange. [00:03:30] Anyhow, um, um, So when did you realise that you were attracted to females? Um, I realised when I was about 16, but it was kind of Oh, yeah, I would have been 16. It was kind of like, um oh, this has been going on for a while now. It's pretty much explained my life. Um, because I [00:04:00] It wasn't long after I had my first boyfriend, who I dated for about a year and who, you know, he was my air quotes boyfriend. I saw him twice by accident. We didn't even hold hands, you know? And I was kind of terrified by the idea of it was like, Yeah, boy, James, no offence. And, um so you you dated him for a year, and you only see him twice by accident. Yeah, [00:04:30] and then I went Oh, wait. This is not a relationship. It kind of made me. Yeah, that's why he was my air quote boyfriend. I mean, to be honest. When he broke up with me via a note passed on by a friend, I was like, Oh, they're going out. Oops. So, yeah, um, it kind of made a lot more sense when I realised I was attracted to girls. When was your first deal with a girl like when you're, [00:05:00] like, younger? Did you, like, look across a classroom and you're like, Oh, her breasts are so beautiful or something like that. Probably not exactly like that. Where you get the Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Um, it's funny because, like, the moment when I realised I was into girls was I was in school and I was walking down the hallway and I suddenly realised that I was staring at a girl's bum. And I was like, I don't think this is like, considered normal behaviour. Oh, well, [00:05:30] and a skull scene as well. I know, But, um, when I started working that out, I thought back and realised that I had crushes on other people. And, um, I kind of thought about it and realised that I had a crush on a friend who I went to high school with, who was a dancer, which probably explains why I think dancers are freaking hold because they just are. They're very flexible as well. Great as she [00:06:00] meows. I know, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's like you. You you see a dancer and they're doing something with their legs, And you just, like, tilt your head to the side. Like I wish I could do that. Oh, yes. Anyhow, um, so when did you come out? Um, so I came out after [00:06:30] I left school when I was 18. Um, and I I waited until then because, um, my high school was pretty homophobic, and I didn't want to have to deal with, um, like, I wasn't really worried that I'd get bullied so much as I really couldn't be bothered dealing with the Oh, my God, are you attracted to me from people? Um, but, you know, I wasn't worried about my family or anything. They're big, greedy hippies, and [00:07:00] I can remember being 13 years old and my mum asking me. So have you got a boyfriend? Nope. Have you got a girlfriend? Nope. Have you got anyone? Nope. Get someone. OK, Mum. Whatever. So I knew that wasn't an issue, but I knew that if I came out to my family, then my little brother, who's a little he was a little bit of a gossip at the time. He probably wouldn't have been able to keep it to himself. So, yeah, [00:07:30] as you do. Yeah. Yeah. How old is he? Um, he's three years younger than me. So he's 18 now, so he's a bit of a and so at the age of age of 18, he would be like, he's actually, he's actually, you know, you know, we we have our arguments every now and then, but Oh, sorry. This is my younger brother. My older brother is the one who is the gossip. No, my younger brother is the gossip. My older brother is the one who frowns upon musical lovers. [00:08:00] Um, no, my my little brother, He he has his moments of awesomeness. Um, in his final year of high school, he Facebooked me and was like, Hey, I'm thinking of going to the school ball and drag. What do you think? And I'm going Well, why are you going to the school ball and drag? And he's like, Well, this girl's really homophobic, and it sucks, and they won't pick on me because I'm popular and could beat them up with my pinky. And I'm like, go for broke, bro. [00:08:30] Um, who was the first person you came out to? Friends on the Internet? I was like the screen. Yeah, I came out to the screen. Um, what was the general reaction? They were real cool about it. That I think that's the good thing about coming out to people on the Internet. It was funny because, um, we're still friends. I still five years on. I still keep in contact with that group of people with [00:09:00] one of them in particular. We talk all the time. Um, and the first person I came out to in person like IRL was Oh, who was it? Oh, it was my friend, um, one of my best friends. I was like, I think I might be by and she was like, Oh, OK, do you have a crush on someone now? And I'm like, maybe, and they're like, oh, clapping hands. Oh, my God. Who [00:09:30] is it? And then I was all embarrassed. I was like, Oh, it's me. No, it wasn't them, but yeah, it was someone they knew in they got excited. They did, and I really didn't want to tell them who it was. Did you tell them? Yeah, in the end. And they were just like, Yeah, I can see that. They're pretty bad. So, um, what was your first LGBT group that you attended? Schools [00:10:00] out, schools out. And that was as as a facilitator. You you went in as a facilitator. You didn't go and pre you just went straight in as a facilitator. I that was my first experience with any kind of LGBT group. You went in and you said, Yeah, yeah, I mean, it was It was a while after I came out, and I hung out with lots of people within the queer community. And, um, my first flat in Wellington had, um a couple of queer peeps living in it, [00:10:30] and and so you know it It wasn't my first introduction to the queer scene, but it was my first actual support group type thing. So, um, so you had AAA support system then? Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everybody was supportive and Yeah, totally. Um, you know, the the only homophobia I've ever really experienced is a the occasional random drunk. More of [00:11:00] like you're a dick. It's like, Oh, my God, You have eyes. Well done. And then the other one was like, uh, an old friend of mine who I came out to and, like, I came out to her. And then I didn't see her for a year. And then when I And in that year, she got married, and when I went back, I don't know, something changed. And so they completely shunned [00:11:30] me to the point of hiding in supermarkets. Yeah, real mature. So that was the point when it became not sad anymore, but more funny and annoying. So So you didn't really receive any abuse because of your sexuality? No, not really. No, no. My my family I. I grew up in an eco village. Um, my neighbours were We had a gay couple living [00:12:00] on one side. There was, uh, um, Trans woman living near us as well in the community. Um, my mom's boss was a lesbian. Her other boss for her other job. I know. Her other colleague for another job was a lesbian. We had lesbians down the road who we got milk from, You know, there were gays and homos everywhere. Just not my Yeah, it was like, where North Coronation Street is, where the gays go to retire and raise families. It's Coronation Street. Yeah, [00:12:30] it's like it's It's just, you know, people. High school age. No way to be seen. But once you get over 30 they're all raised in families. And, you know, So, um, you've have you been in relationships before? Uh, only very recently. Only very recently. With one person. Yeah. So you've only been in one relationship with a female? Yeah. No I, I don't I don't count my air quotes boyfriend and, [00:13:00] um, my fling. Yeah. And I've had no flings. Um, my girlfriend who I've started seeing she's my first girlfriend. She's my first kiss. Like they're all they're all in all kind of thing. Was, uh are you still together? Yeah. At the moment. Yeah. What's that relationship like? It's really good. Yeah, um, we're really good at communicating and, um, checking in on feelings [00:13:30] and like where the relationship is going and that it's not going too fast or too slow or anything like that. How did you meet, uh, through her flatmates? It's a good way to meet. Yeah. So, um, how do you meet other people in the LGBTI Q community? Um, I meet them through, apart from schools out. Yeah, I was just thinking, because it's like, actually, I usually [00:14:00] just meet people through people like, um, my first flat in Wellington. I met, um, kind of the ex flatmates who used to live there, and they're all queer. And then I met people through them, and then I met people through them, and then it kind of just like that. Yeah. And so I'm always constantly surprised when I meet someone who's gay and in Wellington who? I don't know. Like, you know how there was that thing on the news a while back about [00:14:30] I think public. I was like, Oh, my God. Lesbians? I don't know. I was like, Oh, my God. I must know. Must I must learn their ways because I was like, it's more just like I didn't know they existed. Where where did they hide? I thought I knew everybody. Perhaps we can have a snook too. Yeah. Yeah. Um, what is your definition of virginity or your personal opinion? Um wow. [00:15:00] Uh, I guess you know if It feels like sex. And it feels good. Then that's sex, regardless of anything it's not. Um, but I guess to some extent, I suppose I see, um, virginity as, um, Penetration? Um, I guess. Hm. But, you know, sex is different for everybody. [00:15:30] Well, thank you for that interview. Cool. Thank you.

IRN: 677
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_tabby.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004043
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089337
TITLE: Tabby - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Tabby Besley
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bats Theatre; InsideOUT Kōaro; Maryan Street; Nayland Alliance of Gays and Straights (NAGS); Nelson; PFLAG South; Q Youth (Nelson); Q12 (series); Safety in Schools for Queers (SS4Q); Tabby Besley; United Kingdom; Wellington; bullying; family; friends; homophobia; internet; pansexual; parents; peer support; performance; queer; queer straight alliance (QSA); relationships; school; sex; support; theatre; violence; youth
DATE: 20 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Tabby talks about being young and pansexual in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm good. Thank you. That's good. How are you? I'm Teddy. Hello, Tedy. You, um you're like one of the facilitators for QS. A. Um, yeah. I'm the national coordinator of an organisation called the QS. A network. And we're just kind of, um, starting up. We're about to apply to be a trust. Um, yes, and it's very exciting. Very exciting. You've You've practically travelled around New Zealand because [00:00:30] of this, haven't you? Um, I wouldn't go that far. We've been doing some rural outreach. Um, work so recently. We've been doing that in Wanganui in Palmerston North. But you've also been to Auckland as well? Yes, but not because of that. But yeah, I've been to lots of different places. You travel, Are you? So, um, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Um, yes. What do you want to know? What about, [00:01:00] um, I don't know. That's quite a hard question to answer IINFP not to say so. You go to uni or um, no, I've moved up to Wellington from Nelson last year. Um, and yeah, I'm just doing lots of volunteer work, getting a network set up. Um and it's really exciting. The name out there [00:01:30] and doing theatre is my other passion. So you doing the projects? I love the theatre. So do do you, like, go to ST James a lot? Um, no. That's probably a bit extensive and high class for me, but I love some of the they put on it back. I work at Civic Theatre, so I'm very like, Wow, about the theatre. So, um, what is your sexuality, not sexuality? Let's start this again. What is your sex female? [00:02:00] And what is your gender identity and what is your sexuality? Um, my sexual orientation is queer and pansexual. And what is your culture identity? Um, I was brought up in England. So English or european? Um, yeah, but I moved to New Zealand when I was 12, so I guess I'm also a New Zealander, but I identify more strongly, I think, with [00:02:30] my English kind of heritage. Um, and I still don't have residency in New Zealand yet, so I'm not a proper citizen or anything. Whereabouts in England. Were you from, um, Suffolk Suck. Oh, yes. Um, So how do you express yourself in a masculine or feminine way? or any other expression? Um, I identify as a fin, um, which to me is not just about, um, kind of what you wear and stuff. [00:03:00] It's more of a Yeah, an identity. Um, yes. Would you, like, go and expand on that? I think it's kind of about, um, reclaiming femininity. Um, from a queer perspective, um, showing that you can be queer and feminine, and that's great. And yeah. So, um, when did you realise that you were pansexual? Um, well, I [00:03:30] came out first as bisexual, um, when I was, like, 14. Um, and then later on, I kind of thought more about the term and decided I preferred the term pan sexual because encompasses all gender identities. Um, whereas some people think that bisexual doesn't, um, I don't really believe that either, but I just like pansexual as a fit for me. When was the first time you had your first feelings for the same gender? [00:04:00] Um, not really sure. Like, I think I I was always brought up, um, in a really open-minded family, and I never really realised that it was like a a big thing. Um, I can't remember the first time I had feelings for someone of the same same same, um, gender, I think I always found female people attractive as well as male people. And the first time [00:04:30] I kissed a girl was when I was nine, and it was, um, in front of my class because, um, they kept teasing us, me and my best friends and calling us. They called us Lizzie and all this, um, because we were really close and we would hold hands and kiss on the cheek and things like that. So they did us to French to kiss in front of the whole class. Um, and we didn't see anything wrong with it, so we did. But we got teased a bit up. So you never really denied your sexuality, didn't you? No. No. It was all [00:05:00] very open to the community. And I think I'm lucky for that. Because I know it's not like that for a lot of people. Um, but yeah, um, it was good for me. I was happy and proud to be who I was. So, um, you came out at the age of, um, 14 or 15. That's bisexual. Yeah. Uh, how do you come out or Who do you come out to first? [00:05:30] First happened to me because I joined the Quest Strait Alliance group at my school called Nags at Nail College. And, um, I went along to that with a few friends who identified as bisexual, but I wasn't out. Then we just kind of went along to see how it was. And then we stayed part of that group, and we got a chance to go to, um, an SS for Q, which is safety in schools for queer, um, which is really exciting. So we went along to that. And then on the first [00:06:00] night, um, these people came up to me, My friend as we were, like, getting out met. She says, go to bed. Um, and they just sit down and they're like, So what are you Are you gay or bi or what? And it was like, the first time, I'd really, like been asked that. And so I kind of said, Oh, I think I'm bisexual. And I think that was the first time I said it out loud. We're of the moment. Yes, but then when I got home, my mom said to me, So are you the only straight person there. Um, because I was part of the Queer Straight Alliance. And, you know, she didn't know otherwise, I guess. Um and so I said, [00:06:30] um, no, actually, I think I might be bisexual. Um, and then she said, Oh, no, you can't possibly know that you're way too young. Um, which was a bit disappointing because she had always been really open minded, and I didn't think she would kind of say that to me, But, um, once she realised it was like who I was. And it was a thing where she's been really great and supportive. So she's quite supportive now. Oh, yes, yeah, definitely. She's part of the P flag. [00:07:00] Yeah, in a way. Yeah. She's very supportive of Queer Rights and my sister's also open a So she's got two of us to Is there actually a AP flag group in New Zealand? Um, there's like a strong P. A group in Dunedin might be in other parts of the country, too. But as far as I know, there's not one in Wellington or in Nelson to go my mom space. So your [00:07:30] first LGBTI Q group was in Nelson. Yeah, So that was at at my school. And I was really, really lucky to, um, have a QS a there, which is part of the reason I'm so passionate about, um, getting Q SAS in schools all over the country. Um, and then, um, me and, um, some other people at the group were kind of like, Well, this is awesome. But our school has this group. But why doesn't nelson have, um, you know, what about all the other people? Not just at our school. And so we set up Q Youth, which is the community [00:08:00] group at Nelson. We set that up in 2009, and let's go real strong now into the drop in centre, and it's really awesome. Did you facilitate that? Um, I was one of the people who started that. And then I was, um, yeah, a facilitated volunteer. And then I was co-chair of the board with Marion Street. And then I was really lucky to be employed there as the drop in centre coordinator, which was still an amazing opportunity. [00:08:30] So do you know Marion Street quite well? Yes. She's like like friends. Yeah, I saw that you visited her. Yes, this morning I saw your likes. Like like, Yeah, so you kind of had a bit of a support system, didn't you? Um, yes. Yeah, It was great. Um, yeah. I was really lucky to, you know, have other friends who were out, um, to have that group at my school and then to be able [00:09:00] to, um, be proud of that and then go and make more changes in my community. Have a protection system as well. Yeah, um, I think because of because of my family being supportive and the group already existing in my school, um, it wasn't really hard for me to come out and be clear and that that's it. So I don't really need that support system, but that might be because everyone was already supportive for [00:09:30] me. Generally, Um, there was still some homophobia at school. I got a pair thrown at me, and I used to get called the gay emo and things like that. Yes. Um, you always have the colourful hair. Yes, I like the colourful hair. Um, so yeah. I mean, nothing's ever perfect, but I was really lucky. So have you been in a relationship before? Yes. How many. Oh, a few. A few. A few. [00:10:00] Um, I'm not gonna count them right now. Um, Thursday, Um, in a relationship with that girl. And we've been out for two years and almost two months. Two months? Yes. That's nice. That's a good relationship. You're practically married. And so, um, you would you like to tell us the experience of, uh, any of your relationships? [00:10:30] What kind of like, um, what was the relationship like, um, why did you break up or anything like that on any other relationship or current relationship? It's up to you. I think it's something interesting to talk about is kind of when you don't, um, fit on the gay straight kind of ends of the spectrum. Like when you are somewhere in the middle as bisexual [00:11:00] or pansexual. Um, whatever you are, um, it can be a bit more complicated, like, especially when you're younger. And if you're dating people of both genders or any gender, it can be quite confusing. Like when I would go out with a guy I'd sometimes think. Oh, am I am. I actually straight, you know, like, am I picking this up like, what is this? Um and the same then when I'd [00:11:30] be with a girl, and it's quite yeah, it can be quite confusing, but, um, now I can understand that, Yes, I am attracted to people with different genders. That's good. It's OK. Yeah. Um, So, um, how do you meet other people in the LGBTI Q community? Um, I think going along to, um, queer groups. So, um, [00:12:00] that's a bit obvious. I know. I think can be one of the best places to meet other people. And then you get to meet often people from different parts of the country as well, Less broad. How do you meet other people in a social situation? Not in a youth working work situation. Two friends, um, Facebook. [00:12:30] Yeah. Um, I guess a lot of my friends are in that kind of, um, youth work. That's how I have met them for me, But and then through them, I will meet other queer people. Um, I've noticed you've always almost always in work mode when it comes to stuff. How do you ever go into, like, personal tappy mode? [00:13:00] Um, I guess I'm quite a a calm person in a way so I can manage to, like, be working and be really stressed. But be really calm. Um, I don't know if that's got to do with what you're asking. Um, think for me just being able to, like, go home and chill out and just go on the Internet or watch movies or TV shows or whatever and hang out with my girlfriend or think just getting away from work and forgetting about it and distracting [00:13:30] myself is a really good way for me. The calm period. So what is your definition or your personal opinion in virginity? I think it's different for everyone, and it's up to you what it is. How about for yourself? Um, again, I think when you're like somewhere along the middle of the spectrum, it can be hard if you have sex [00:14:00] with both male and female people and then you're like So I guess, in a way I lost both my male and female virginity. It's quite hard to define virginity. Um, yeah, I think it's It's about a consenting sexual. Expect you, you know, I. I think it's a really a personal thing, and it's what it is. So have you experienced or received any abuse or abusive [00:14:30] behaviour because of your gender identity, your expression identity or your sexuality? Not really. Yeah, just like I already mentioned a little bit at school. So they kind of Yeah, get some homophobic language and things like that. Um, I guess for me it will come more in the form of things like heteros. [00:15:00] A few are clear kind of thin. Um, woman, it can feel really invisible at times your identity. Unless you were kind of marching down the street holding your girlfriend's hand or wearing a rainbow flag and just, you know, people assuming that you're straight really annoy me, and then I get people like my my nanny, she [00:15:30] ring up and she'd always ask if I had a boyfriend. But she knew how I identified. And one point she knew already that I had a girlfriend as well. And I said, No, I've still got my girlfriend. She'd be like, Oh, but do you have a boyfriend? I was like, Oh, no, you know, just listen and accept that part of me. But, um, they get more, more subtle things than anything extreme. Have you? Do you have a fear of peers Now, after that? Um, [00:16:00] no, I don't think I've ever like, um, the funny thing about that story was that the person who threw it at me then turned out, like later I found out that it was someone who became one of my best friend's younger brothers, and he actually ended up apologising to me for it. Um, so that was Yeah. It was quite a hilarious story in the end, but still, the fact that it happened in the first place. Good. So, uh, thank you for the interview. That's all right.

IRN: 676
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_mike.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004042
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089336
TITLE: Mike - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Kapiti Coast District; Q12 (series); School's Out (Wellington); Wellington; abuse; bebo. com; bullying; coming out; drag; facebook. com; family; friends; gay; homophobia; movies; musicals; performance; reading; relationships; school; sex; support; theatre; transgender; transphobia; youth
DATE: 19 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Mike talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? Wonderful. Thank you. And yourself. Fantastic. Oh, Who are you? Who am I? That's a good question. My name's Mike. Uh, I'm not sure how much you want to know about who I am. I'm a Wellington queer. Wellington Wellington, Queer. How's that? Is that who I am? OK, tell us about your personal, My personality. Oh, lady. Um, I'm Oh, gosh. [00:00:30] How do I do this without sounding arrogant? I'm do it anyway. Do it anyway. I'm fantastic. That's what I am. Um, I'm really easy going. I would. Well, you you'll know all about. It's all over the internet. Um, I'm, um I'm I'm quite friendly. I'm very open. Uh, I'm maternal. That's Yeah. That's how I am. Yeah. So, uh, a little bit about yourself a little bit more [00:01:00] about yourself. A little bit more about myself. I am a drag queen by the name of Mama Desire. Uh, I help facilitate a youth group called Schools Out, which is Wellington based, and I'm very proud of it. It's very great. I work at McDonald's, so I'm not gonna tell you which one, because you'll ask for discount. Big Mac. Um, I have a very large DVD collection. I don't know. [00:01:30] Um, you thought I was gonna say something else. Then didn't you DVD collection? No, no, I did not think of that. Yeah. Yeah. Likes and hobbies, likes and hobbies. Uh, DVD collecting. I currently have 380. Um, drag. Uh, I read quite a lot. Um, I am quite fond of, I don't know, males. [00:02:00] Males. I like I like a bit of boy. Well, you know, maybe not. Boy gracious the movie. I do like that movie. That is a good film. Um, you do like boy, you do like boy. Yeah. Yeah. Um, other likes and hobbies. I don't know. I have lots. I like musical theatre. That's something I really like. Yeah. So, um, what is your original sex? My original [00:02:30] sex. I was born male, born male. What is your gender identity? Um, male. But if I'm a drag, then I'm a female. But generally I'm a male. You have a Penis. You like? Show it off. Um, no, no. I like to keep a Penis to myself, but, um, I'm very selfish. Yeah, yeah. Um, where was that? Um, what is your sexuality? my sexuality. I'm a gay man. [00:03:00] A gay man. Gay man. And what is your culture? Identity Culture. Identity is pasty white boy. A culture identity. OK, yeah. Um, no, I I'm Yeah, that's my culture. New Zealand, I guess. And, um, how do you express yourself a masculine feminine in between? Uh, bear twink I I've always [00:03:30] thought that I'm sort of like, uh I don't really fit anywhere, which I quite like because I'm I'm a I'm a bigger guy. So I'm not fit enough to be a twin. Oh, you've got a phone call. How exciting. Ok, and just in case my interview was really boring just in case, just in case I fell asleep because not not during the interview, But, um, yeah, I I'm I'm too big to be a twin, but I'm not hairy enough to be a bear. I don't know. I'm just my own No, [00:04:00] I'm not a cub. I'm not hairy enough to be a cub. I'm I'm the way I dress is fairly is not feminine, not particularly feminine. But the way I act is Yeah, and it depends on how I feel On any given day. Some days I'll be more masculine. Some days I'll be more feminine. Yeah. So, um, when did you realise that you were gay? When did I realise that I was gay, like, officially? Or when was your first moment where you had an attraction [00:04:30] to another boy or my first? Your your very first. Like, noticeable. Well, looking back on it, um, my first noticeable thing was, uh, when I saw the Disney film Aladdin, uh, I develop developed a huge crush on Aladdin, The the main character, even though he's a cartoon and that crush has still remained to this day, Uh, here is my He's my boyfriend. It's it's it's totally normal. Um, and I remember [00:05:00] that I had quite a quite a thing for a Ladin without without actually realising that it was a crush. You like? You like what he does and that strike the lamp. Sorry. Sorry. I couldn't help myself. I had to put that joke in there. Yeah, um I'm not entirely sure how to go on from that. Continue. Continue. Um, yeah. I also remember being about about five. [00:05:30] I, uh I'm just guessing that with the ages here, but I know I was very young. I had quite a close friend who lived down the street from me and him. And I would quite often play doctors. Yeah, and I. I remember that I was far more into that game than he was. For some reason, Um, he'd much rather play with Batman toys. But as much as I like Batman toys, Um, yeah. So I guess that was like those two sort of things for the first. Yeah. [00:06:00] Played doctors, doctors. What sort of things? Um, we would go into his mother's closet. I don't know why I wouldn't go into his closet, but his mother's closet and we would we would kiss and we would cuddle. And we would, uh, inspect each other's bodies. Yeah, so that's what they call doctors. Well, that's what I don't I don't even know if that's what we call called it, but it's sort of like a name. I've given it in my head. I was like, Oh, God, [00:06:30] like doctors expecting each other's body. So you kind of known from a very young age. I didn't know at that stage I What happened was when I was that age, I thought it was totally normal for guys to like guys. Um And it wasn't until I got, you know, a little bit older when I realised that boys were supposed to like girls. That is how it's supposed to be. And I you know, I always just thought girls were kind of strange. I never really knew where they fit into the picture. Um, yeah. So then when I was six, I was like, Oh, OK, [00:07:00] ok, then. So I sort of managed to, uh I don't know, II. I sort of figured if if liking girls was the natural thing to do, then that was something I had to do. Yeah, And it was I don't remember making a conscious decision because I was obviously very young. But I guess it was kind of like your denial period. I guess so. Like my subconscious. I don't know. Um, the first time I realised that I liked boys like, I sort of had an epiphany that I did like [00:07:30] boys and always had liked boys, and I just sort of ignored it. I was 11, and, um, I came out as bisexual because I thought it would be the easier thing to do, and I came out to a couple of my friends as bisexual. I came out to a group of about five when I was 11, which is quite young. My eldest nephew is 11 in November in November. And it's just it's just so young to me, OK? And you're just like thinking he was like, Yeah, he's a bisexual boy. A boy. [00:08:00] Oh, no. Um but no, I don't think that at all. No, I hope not. I don't. OK, moving on. Um And then when I was 16, I came out as gay. I sort of had. I remember the moment I was in the shower and I had an epiphany, and I was like, Oh, I actually am gay. Oh, that makes it easier. Oh, OK, then. And then I came out a couple of days later, as as gay to pretty much everyone in my school. Yeah. Yeah. So did [00:08:30] I knock out a couple of questions there? No, You just You just made it kind of clear how you did it. Very detailed. So I like that a lot. Obviously, a lot of this is in retrospect. Yeah, yeah. Um So what? When did you come out? again as bisexual. I came out when I was 11, which was 10 years ago. That's how old I am. And, um, as gay, I was 16. Yeah. So, um, did [00:09:00] you ever attended LGBTI Group A group? This is my interview, not the Swedish chef. This is not the Muppets. Um, shut up. My interview all about me my time. Um, what was the question [00:09:30] you attended a BT IQ group? Um, when I came out at 16, I was a couple of months later. I was like, I know no gay people. This is really upsetting because I lived in, uh, pram I grew up in which is an hour, an hour's drive away from the city. 40 40 minutes drive to an hour. Um and yeah, I knew no gay people. I knew a couple of black people, but not gay people. And I sort of wanted to know people, and I wanted to make new friends, make new friends. [00:10:00] And this was, of course, back in the days of good old Yeah, good old Bebo. Fond memories on that thing. Um, and I sort of looked up queer groups and, um, on Google, and it came up with the school. The school is out, and I clicked on it and I thought, Oh, yeah, This is pretty cool. So I sort of posted a posted a message, being like, Hi, I'm a I'm a gay kid. I'm new to this. I want to go. I don't know anybody. I was sort of like I don't I. I want [00:10:30] to come to this group, but I don't know where it is. I don't know how to get there. So I had someone. Someone met up with me, took me to the group. So I attended the group from when I was 16, and obviously then I became a facilitator, So I'm still involved with the group. Um, what days are the groups? Um, if you want information on the skills out group, you can go on the Facebook page. Skills out. I don't want to give details. We have a thing that we don't give out details Unless [00:11:00] it's not. Yeah, or you can text 0277639793. Once again. That's 0277639793 Coming up after the break. Those with a lot of results for today. Coming after the break we've got We've got queens to funny, but first we have Lady Gaga. This is the edge. No. Um Oh, good. No, I remember back in the days on the radio. Anyway, this [00:11:30] is an interview about you. So have you ever been in a relationship before? Have I been in a relationship before? I have with boys and girls. How many relationships have you had with boys with boys? Ok, OK, first with boys, always with boys first 44. Is that including flings? No. How many proper relationships? How many flings Have you been outside of relationship or to find a fling fling? Probably like a mini relationship that only [00:12:00] lasted less than a month or less than two weeks. Does it count? If it's one of your exes again, Does that count as a does that count as a separate thing? Or should I count it with boyfriends? No, I think that's kind of like a I think, Yeah, I think that just stays with the whole one relationship because you're going on and off kind of thing. That that that stays with one relationship. OK, so mhm. Maybe 21. I remember [00:12:30] I was talking with someone the other day where we were defining what flings are. And it was like Obviously, a one night stand is for one night. A week would be like a quick fuck gracious. I didn't realise we could use such a language in this. Yes. And, um And And I guess I guess over a week to a month is a fling. Then I would say, yeah, 1 to 2 flings 1 to 2 flings, one fling, [00:13:00] one quick Fuck. No, no, I'm not. My friends know me as a bit of a prude. I don't do I don't really do, uh, six or anything like that outside of a relationship. I'm quite Yeah, Yeah, he's a good boy. Thank you. Yes, my mother raised me well or something. So, um, how about for, like, how many girl relationships have you had? Girl relationships? Well, it's a different story. 103. No. Um God, you sound like Robina. Thank [00:13:30] you. Good. That's what I was aiming for. I've never met Rabia. Um I would say maybe 34. So during those times, you know, dating a girl, you don't really realise that you were gay, weren't you? Yeah. Uh, well, I realised I was by when I was dating these girls. Or, you know, I realised I like guys. And I was saying I was by, um yeah, so I didn't realise I was completely gay. It was all of the girls that I dated. All of them are still [00:14:00] really good friends of mine. Um, so it was just like having a really good like it turn out that just turned out like that. My first relationship actually, uh, lasted for three years with a girl called Christine. Yeah, she's still a really good friend of mine. And, you know, in gay years that you're actually married. Yeah, pretty much. Um, and gay years. We've retired by now, retired together in Florida. Um, yeah, her and I were together for three years and [00:14:30] sort of we broke up when I was about Oh, I can't even remember. But a couple of years after I came out as gay or sort of a year after I came out as gay or something and, uh, she came out as lesbian, and then she was in a huge relationship with a girl and then they broke up. And then she went back to bisexual. And then she had a kid, and it was just quite funny. There was an ongoing joke for a while that we turned each other queer, which I quite liked. Not true, of course, but I liked it. It's funny. It's quite funny. Yeah. So, um, how do you meet other people in the community? [00:15:00] How do I meet other people in the community? I suppose I'm quite lucky in the sense that I'm really outgoing. And I find it really easy to talk to people. And I really like talking to different people. So I find drag. Actually, for me, it's the opposite way around and drag. I get a lot more reserved and I don't talk to as many people. I don't I know why that is. Yeah, I think it's just, you know, you sort of do different personalities, and you can tend to do the opposite of what you are. And so, Mama desire [00:15:30] is quite quiet and reserved. It's like, Hi desire. Fuck off. No, I think not. Rude. I'm kidding. Um, yeah, I know. Um, yeah. So I'm you know, I'm I'm also fairly approachable, and that's how I meet people. I just sort of go out and I'll go to. I'll go to a bar or I'll go to wherever and I'll just sort of When I go to a place like that, I'll quite often look around and see someone new and decide. I'll sit down and talk to this new person and just [00:16:00] try and make a new friend. So, um, going back to relationships? Can you give us a, um, an experience of one of your relationships of what happened or something like that? I do feel awfully vague. Could you like, I don't know, make it a bit more specific, you know? Like, how was the relationship? Like one of the relationships? How was that relationship for you? And like did Were you always [00:16:30] happy and stuff like that? And how did you break up, or how did you meet them or something like that? Do you want, like, specific relationships or an overview or one relationship? One kind of thing? Uh, talk about my favourite. My favourite ex. Um, who I'm still fantastic friends with. He lives up in Auckland, and I, um I'm still in contact with him Heaps, and he comes down to Wellington every so often, and he's just a really good friend. Still, um, we dated for three months, and [00:17:00] it was just a lot of fun throughout. Throughout the relationship, it was lots of fun. It was really nice. Um, and when it ended, it was just sort of we decided mutually that. You know, it wasn't quite right being in a relationship. Um, and it was just a really positive experience. We had lots of fun while we were together. We broke up really positively. We're still really good friends, you know, and him and I are still really flirty towards each other when we see each other. And, you know, we're still quite touchy. Fairly. And it's just [00:17:30] that's that's my favourite story. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, what is your definition of virginity? My definition of virginity, your personal definition or your opinion? Either way or your opinion of the definition. I think that to an extent, virginity is defined by you. Like if you say, for instance, a person was, uh their [00:18:00] first experience was they were raped. Say, um, I and they still afterwards because it wasn't you know it wasn't right. They didn't want to. If afterwards they still felt like a virgin. Then I would say that they are still a virgin, if that makes sense, Um, I think that a virgin is virginity is whatever you I know. If you feel yeah, if that makes sense, I think to an extent, it's what you who? You define it as yourself. Um [00:18:30] And what about for you? For me? How do you define it? I define it as having penetrative sex. So or not even no, not even penetrative sex. I don't know. That's such a hard question. I feel like it's different for everyone and for me. Um, I had sex with a guy like it was there was penetrative sex. It was mutual. It was [00:19:00] It was consensual. It was fun. And for me, that was losing my virginity, you know, Um, but for other people, it may be completely different because obviously, uh, like for different people have different ways of having sex. So there may be some gay guys who don't like having anal sex who don't like penetrative sex, so they would have another definition of being of having sex or like lesbians who don't, you know, have penises or anything. They have another definition of having sex. [00:19:30] So it's I think that definitions of virginity is all very personal. Hm. Yeah. So what is your, um Have you ever experienced or received any abuse or abusive behaviour because of your gender identity? You being a drag queen or because of your sexuality? Only from you, you dick. Fuck you. I've had I have had a fair amount of abuse. Um, strangely enough, I had more abuse [00:20:00] for being gay before I came out. Uh, at high school, I got a lot of bullying for being queer. Um, which never really bothered me too much. I've always had I've always had bullying all my life, and it's one of those people that can laugh it off. It's not that bullying has never really affected me that much. And I'm I'm so lucky because of that that I just find people who bully. If people are trying to bully me, I just find it funny, to be honest, because it's just so tragic. Um, it's like, Fuck you. [00:20:30] Yeah, Yeah, it's like, Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. But before I came out, The queer bullying was more hurtful because, you know, it was obviously a secret. I was trying to hide hide from people. It was a secret to some extent, that I was trying to hide from myself. So I feel like, um, it hurt a lot more before I came out. But after I came out, I was able to laugh it off and people were like, Oh, you thought you're a fucking home and I'll be like, Yeah, I am one number, you know, And I Yeah, [00:21:00] yeah, you'd be able to You'd be able to turn the tables, um, for being a drag queen. I've had a bit of abuse, but most of the abuse for being a drag queen comes from within the gay community. There are so many gay people that don't like drag queens, which is crazy. I I feel like this is completely generalising, obviously, and I don't mean any offence or anything, but quite often the gay gay community, I feel [00:21:30] because they quite often like shit, gets heaped upon them, you know, and they get a lot of bullying themselves, and I feel that quite often it's like you know there's a hierarchy or they they think there's a hierarchy and they sort of want to be above someone. If that makes, I don't even know if that makes sense, and I don't even know if that's how I feel. I guess that's what's coming out of my mouth. I guess in a way, um, the gay community have been like fighting for rights and being respected for who we are [00:22:00] and stuff like that, like in 1980 scheme law reform 1993 being passed that no one can actually fire us because of our sexuality, fighting for civil unions and stuff like that. And there was that window period where we weren't fighting for everything, anything because we had what we want. And I guess the only thing that we were fighting was against each other until finally we've actually fighting for for our right to get married. And we've finally actually become, [00:22:30] um, together again as a community to have that fight quite often. Um, I mean, it's the same with with transgender people. They also get a lot of shit from the gay community, and people quite often tend to lump drag queens and transgender people together. They're like, Oh, drag queens and train When, Of course, it's two completely different thing. You know, being a drag queen is you do it to perform. You do it for fun. It was being transgendered. As you know, it's It's who you are. Inside, [00:23:00] it's It's much deeper than being a drag queen. Being a drag queen is just kind of fun. And it's a way of expressing yourself. Transgender, transgender. It's a lot more serious. Um, yeah, it's It's a lot. I don't know. It's like gender identity. Yeah. Yeah, Exactly. Yeah. Well, thank you for the interview. Oh, that's all right. Is it over? Oh! Oh, that was so quick. That's what he said. Um, OK, thank you. [00:23:30] You're welcome. Bye.

IRN: 675
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_horowai.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004041
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089335
TITLE: Horowai - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Dannevirke; Manawatū; Māori; Q12 (series); Rainbow Youth; Rainbow Youth Alternative Ball; abuse; arts; bullying; children; coming out; facebook. com; family; friends; gay; homophobia; internet; isolation; musicals; parenting; performance; rape; relationships; school; sex; sexual abuse; takatāpui; theatre; violence; writing; youth
DATE: 19 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Manawatū, Manawatu, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Horowai talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I am fantastic. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? I am a Maori boy from Danny and I am gay. It's quite quite nice. I must say, I like it. Do you Do you listen to that song? I'm a boy. Oh, yeah, Yeah, they're bloody awesome. And I watch them on and he got talent, and I'm just like, Damn, they're still sexy. Damn, but can you tell us a little bit more about yourself? Um, what do you want to know? My personality? [00:00:30] Um, I don't know. I got told by my doctor that I have a very gregarious personality. Apparently, uh, it took me Google to know what that means. And apparently it means they were going. I don't think I'm very outgoing. I'm a pretty shy person. I'm just I just talk. It does not mean I'm outgoing. I'm pretty shy. So I just keep going, and then I end up babbling, and it's what I'm doing right now. So yeah, next thing you know, we'll be doing the whole Swedish shift again. No Swedish shit. Please. Although [00:01:00] no Swedish shit. Stop right now, OK? Anything else you want to know? Um, likes and hobbies. Oh, likes and hobbies. Oh, I like to play on the piano and sing, and I like to do musical theatre. Um, I was performing just this weekend. The little shop of horrors. That was fun. Well, I've only ever done Danny Big production. Wow, that's a big deal, but yeah, that's [00:01:30] that's fun. Lights, camera action. And I also like to, um, write. I like writing a lot, but I like planning stories more than I actually like writing things because, like, yeah, you got the story in my head. Yeah. People that didn't know what it is as you do. Yeah, Pretty much. So. Uh, what is your sex? Um um I was about to say good, but it's a horrible joke. Um, I'm a male. I don't have to think about that. I'm a male. Yes. What is your gender identity? What is your sexuality? Male [00:02:00] Gay. I'm gay. What is your cultural identity? I'm And how do you express yourself in feminine masculine camp twink a cup bear. Shit. Um Oh, shit. OK, um I don't know. It's I guess I'm brown. I sometimes fit the stereotype very well. like, right now, I'm not wearing any socks, which is horrible, but I should be wearing [00:02:30] socks. Yeah, Yeah. So feminine, masculine, feminine. Probably more likely. That's what my boyfriend calls me. He just goes. You are the girl, and I'm like, stop putting your gender identity in me. Um, OK, so when did you realise that you were attracted to males? Oh, my Lord. Oh, my Lord. Uh, since I was a child, um, experimenting with the I guess that's [00:03:00] that's bad, Like four year old, like four year olds. You know, kissing and shit. This is what I used to do. And, um Ah, cousin and, um, one older male rape. That was dumb. Didn't like that. Uh, but yeah, since I was really little. And from then on, I've always had damage in my head of a male on top of me. So damage damage. So you never really [00:03:30] denied your six year old who didn't you? Oh, no, I definitely denied my sexuality. That was Yeah, I definitely did. That was a good part of me where I was just like fuck no, I don't want to be gay. No, no, no. I don't want to be gay at all until you said sore breast for the first time. No, I got a good pregnant. What? Yeah, I got a girl pregnant. That was fantastic timing when I was, how old was I? 14 at the time. You got a I got a girl pregnant. Apparently it runs in my family. He got ovary seeking sperm, and my Penis [00:04:00] was inside a girl and stuff happened. And then she got pregnant, and I was like, Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, Fuck! Because it had to just happen. Just as I bloody decided to go. I am fully gay. There's no use denying it now. No use, but yeah, I'm shocked. I actually knew this about You're welcome. Wow. It's not something I like talking about. So, what happened to her? Um, well, we went to doctors and stuff and, like, yeah, Yeah, it's all great. And I'm a 14 year old dad. Awesome. [00:04:30] And then she miscarried, and I was just like, yeah, she miscarried. But there was still that sense of disappointment because I was just, like, fuck. I wanted to be a dad. Still too young to be a dad, though, but I know in the future. I want kids. So that helped me with that one. But a good dad. You'll probably be one day. Oh, I'll be a horrible father. I have no patience for Children. I will be the like the I'm here, Have some money. Go away. Type of person. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Wow. [00:05:00] I've never actually heard a story like that before. Ok, Ok, um so when did you come out of the closet? Oh, shit. Um I came out of the closet I. I opened the door of the closet and said, I'm bisexual because I was just, like, gonna deny the fact that I'm gay completely. Just like because I honestly didn't want to be gay at all. And I just [00:05:30] didn't want to be gay. No, but I'm happy now, But back in the day, some fucking shit. You came out as first and I only told my friends at the point of time and at school I was always a kid. That was Oh, you're the boy that likes other boys. Yes, but I like girls too. I don't like girls. I girls too, with wiggly fingers. What? And yeah, this is just location. Pretty much. When did you, um, came out as [00:06:00] gay? Oh, pretty much after my girlfriend miscarried. He was like, Yeah, congratulations. You lost. You lost the child. Oh, you also lost a boyfriend because he's gay and then doesn't have their own. You made him gay. No, I didn't. He was always gay. Then why are we having with him? Because he didn't want to be gay. And it creates this big, confusing conversation. So what was the main reaction when you came out as buy [00:06:30] as buying for OK, this is funny. Um, one thing my friend did was she tried to ease in the conversation because she wasn't there when I came out to the majority of my friends, and she just heard from my friends that I was buying, and she was just like, So, um, are you like And she just wiped her hand, and she's like and I was just like, What the fuck are you talking about? Like, are you? And she kept waving your hand, and I thought, What the fuck is this girl on? And then she goes See ya. See ya. And I was like, [00:07:00] What the fuck? What? And she goes, Are you buy? Bye. Say bye. And I was like, Fuck you slip that in a lot more Suddenly it was too subtle, just shit. And I was just like, yes, I'm And then she was like, Oh, ok, then and then that pretty much what my friends said. But I'm pretty sure they talk by my back. They always do. So, Danny Burke. So, what was the main reaction you got when you came out as gay? Um, from who? From everyone [00:07:30] on average, on average, then I like gay people. Yeah, we can go shopping. I never met a gay boy before. Of course you didn't. You live in? That's right. Yes, of course. You've met a gay boy. You've met me. I've never not been gay. I've always been there. I just didn't accept it Pretty much. Yes. So, um, have you ever attended a LGBTI QQ group [00:08:00] before? Never. Never, never, ever. Oh, I went to, um the rain ball last year. That the only thing I've been Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. And that is the only thing I've ever been associated with in the group of other gays. I remember that night. I was DJ. Yes, I know you were. DJ was a good DJ. Yes, you were. I was just like, Yeah, this is the song. And then I ended up sweating like hell, and I was like, Fuck, I'm ugly. This is advertisement over here, because this year I'll be D Jing back at the Rainbow [00:08:30] Youth Alternative ball. And, yeah, I'm doing it again this year. And I was going to be dancing again this year. Yeah, but this time I'm going to control myself. So I don't end up sweating like a pig on the dance floor because that is not attractive. My current boyfriend met me on the dance floor at the Rainbow Youth Ball, and he said the first and I was like, What was your first impression of me? He goes sweat here, and I was like, Ok. Oh, thank you. 00, this impression. The best person to pretty much. And it was like so let's just [00:09:00] keep that on the back. So, um, where was I? Where was I? Oh, yeah. So, um did you ever? So you got some support with your six year old? Who? Yeah, my my family were pretty good about it because I didn't have to come out to them. They pretty much just like they like. They just, like, tipped me out the closet pretty much. That was just me and my parents. Um, me and my mum said that at least, um, we my parents we were sitting at the kitchen table just having a general chat, and, um, we were talking [00:09:30] about When they die, I get all the money pretty much except for, like, all my 15 siblings, and then they're just like, OK, you're pretty much gonna get majority of money. Oh, awesome. And and then they just sat there for a while and then they said, What do I You do realise if you were gay, we'd still love you? We still love you. We love you very much. And we pretty much accepted the fact that you're gay. And I was like, That's kind of rude. I was like, but I was like, Yes, and then I and I was like, Hey, guess what? Yeah, I'm gay. [00:10:00] Yeah, we know. And I was like, Yeah, it's kind of hard not to know. And then my mum decided to go through everything like My mom is a She's a social worker, but she's been getting a masters in psychology. And she was telling me about this time when I was, um, my auntie told her that when I was seven, I was playing my cousin's Barbies because I was obsessed with Barbies. Back then. I wanted one, but my parents refused and give me Barbie. But I play my cousin's Barbie and then I cut the hair off the Barbies, and then I was just like, Yay! [00:10:30] They're boyfriends die! So then, like the two, I just pretended they were boys and, like, yeah, da da da, da And my cousin was obviously the straw because I just cut her Barbie's hair off and they're like princesses. They're not protests anymore. They die. And I was just like, that vibe ends down. It's just so, um, what was it like being a gay boy living in deny? [00:11:00] OK, uh, where do I start? Um, OK, let's go. Living in Danny is pretty much lonely. It we don't Danny isn't a homophobic place. It's just very homo. I grew up with no, um, gay icons or any media or any sort of person that I could relate to. So I pretty much coming to myself and coming to terms with my sexuality. Um, it was really [00:11:30] hard because it was really lonely. And I just, like, looked around and no one there. And then I tried to talk to my friends, and my friends really didn't understand. And then I started Oh, it got really bad because I started resenting my friends because they got, like, in and out of the stupid, dramatic boyfriends things. And I was just like, I would kill to have a boyfriend. I would kill you to get your boyfriend. And now you're having more boyfriends in. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Not far from you, though. Um, but yeah. So I just, [00:12:00] uh, didn't like growing up gay in Danny Burke at all. And it just felt so ostracised from the rest of the world because Danny Perk is an hour away from Palmerston North and an hour and a half away from Hastings. And so you were pretty much in the middle of fucking nowhere. So, um, how did you got introduced into the gay community then? Ok, um, let's go with the first boy I kissed um because he moved into Danny. And, um, my friend was just like, Oh, I went with this gay guy. You love him. [00:12:30] And I was like, Is that just because he's gay? Because no one asked for another couple. Couple 100 K. Is it just because of that? Is he the only other gay person you know? And I just acted like that because I was really scared because I was just like, Fuck. This is a gay person, I. I don't know how to talk to gay people. Oh, my God. What do I do? Do I do I, like, shake hands or just, like, do a dance? I don't know what the fuck I'm going to do, and so I just like, No, take him away. I don't want him. I don't want to know him. And then he texted me and he just like So, um, you're gay, right? Yeah, pretty much. [00:13:00] And then, uh, first time I met him, it was really nice because I was in the middle of a fiddle on the roof and he came to see me, and he's just, like, really cute. I was like, Oh, my God. Thank you. And then the second time I met him, um, we I ended up on the wall. It was fantastic. Um um And then after that, he done Oh, he didn't dump me. He just texted me on my birthday and said, Yeah, I don't want anything to do with you anymore. Ever. Um, piss off. I hate you. And [00:13:30] I was just like, come on my birthday. He came my birthday party the week before, and he got me my knees. It was horrible. And, um, yeah, that was I guess that was a bit of a learning curve for me because, um, loneliness spreads desperateness, you know, stuff like that. And so from there, uh, I didn't even think about going online to find online communities in New Zealand because I was too apprehensive about it because I was nervous. I was scared. I was just like, I don't know any other gay people. What if they don't [00:14:00] like me? What if no gay people like me and I'm gonna be alone forever? I'd rather I'd much rather have lived in the fantasy than actually live in reality, which is a horrible, horrible thing to do. But I did that. And then I found, um, a website for Rainbow Youth. And then on Facebook. I found this Facebook, especially though I found this, um, this group called gay teens NZ. And I'm [00:14:30] just like I'm a gay teen in New Zealand. So I decided I liked it, and then I started talk. I didn't talk. I was just, like, flicking through it and all I saw just, like, have sex with me. I'm a no, I I'm so sexy. Everyone should have fuck me. And then I just I just wrote my detest for it. I was just like, I hate this. Oh, no, no. I'm generally new to this whole online queer community, actually new to the queer community in general. And if this is what I'm going to be introduced to for the rest of the time, I'm not gonna like it at all. And people are like, [00:15:00] Oh, I understand. Oh, yes. So you're so good. And then, um, I got this rainbow facilitator, and he pretty much was just like, Oh, hey, um, so I hear your gate, and then it was really nice from there, so that was nice. I guess that was that was nice and he introduced me to the, um the community All good. So, um, you're in a relationship, obviously. Now. Oh, Lord, Oh, dear. That's how a good start. Yes, I'm in a relationship right [00:15:30] now. How many relationships have you been in? Um, mhm. See, it's really hard when you have to think of what Do you concentrate in the relationship? Well, like I said, a relationship lasts more than a month. More than a month. A relationship is a month and onwards. A flying is two weeks and onwards. Quick fuck is less than a week and a one night stand is one night. OK, um so would you concentrate long distance relationships [00:16:00] into that category? OK, so hm. Two relationships, I guess. 22 relationships. Yeah, OK, not including anyone else, right? So would you like to give a tell us more of your experience with a fling or a relationship that you've had for a fling or relationship? Either? Two. Ok, so it was earlier this year. Sorry. Ok, Earlier on this year, I, [00:16:30] um I got really sick, but before I got really sick, um, I got this fellow from fielding and he was very, very nice. But he was also very he wasn't. He was like, how old he was 25. And so I didn't care because he was a attractive And he was just like, Hey, you wanna hook up? Sure. And so, um, I snuck out for the first time in my life. It's fucking difficult, especially when I'm positioned. I'm like, right next to my parents' bedroom, and they have to [00:17:00] all the way around them. And so that happened. And then we pretty much I hopped on his car and I had a knife in my pocket, just in case he was like, because I don't know. And, um, we pretty much just drove to the reserve and we had in his car every once in a while. But what happened was like after the first night I met him, I got really sick. Not about the first night, but first night we met and stuff and talked and he said, Oh, let's be in a relationship. And I was like, OK, I was [00:17:30] all happy and but I got really and I was sick for weeks and it was really bad. I couldn't go to school and what happened was after, um after I got better. Um because during the entire time I was sick, I was still like, I couldn't move my arm. I couldn't move this half my body and very much in it at all. But I still snuck out and, you know, had sex with him. Because what do you do? And if I didn't, he would have got mad. [00:18:00] And by the time I got, I actually got better and was able to go visit him and his family that he wanted me to. What happened was, uh what happened. That's right. He told me that he broke up with me because as I was sick, I had gained too much weight, and he wasn't attracted to me anymore. And I, I hit the roof. I was just like, Fuck! Fuck you! Fuck you, then Fuck! Go away. Go away! Go, go, go, go, go! And then I just, like, slid him to the side that at the end of that story. So, um, [00:18:30] how do you meet other people in the LGBTI Q community? Well, I don't go outside in my front yard to go. Hello? Uh, I pretty much, um online. That's the only way I can do it. Because there's no other way except like, Oh, do you know this version? Can you give them their phone number so I can call them? You can't see. There are people listening to this. You can't see my hand gestures. I have got a phone on my hand and I'm looking at the microphone like you can hear me. OK, sorry. And, um, what is your definition of virginity? [00:19:00] Virginity? Ok, um, my definition of virginity is not the first person you had sex with, because I even I got even though I got a girl pregnant. I didn't constitute that as my virginity because I wasn't bisexual or straight. Um, I constitute my virginity. It was the first time I had anal sex with a man. Hm. Oh, male. Oh, that wasn't right. OK. And, um, have you experienced or received any abuse [00:19:30] or abusive behaviour because of your sexuality or gender identity? Um, while I was walking home one day from school, uh, a car pulled up next to me full of senior boys. This was when I was year 10, and they pretty much just threw bottles at me. And some of them are glass. Someone hit me directly in the head and I fell on the ground and that sucked. Well, thank you for the interview. Ah, no problem. It's perfectly fine. I love us talking. It's my favourite thing to do. Thank you.

IRN: 674
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_james.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004040
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089334
TITLE: James - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Hawkes Bay; Māori; Napier; Q12 (series); alcohol; bullying; coming out; family; friends; gay; pets; relationships; religion; school; sex; social; takatāpui; youth
DATE: 15 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Napier, Napier, Hawkes Bay
CONTEXT: In this podcast James talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? Hello. How are you today? I'm asking you now. I'm asking you now. I'm good. That's good. Who are you? James. Ok, James, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? I dropped out of school at 16. Um, I have a puppy. Yes. You have a puppy name? A. And you lived in Napier your whole life Pretty much flex me. Na. Born [00:00:30] in Napier. Yeah. So how about likes and hobbies? Uh, I like drinking as you do. I like hanging out with people that can get on a good buzz. Spending time with friends, mainly. Just getting out of the house, Just hanging, hanging with people that are like can have a good time. It doesn't have to be [00:01:00] drinking just, you know, talk to people. I like meeting new people. It's pretty cool. And you don't have a cell phone. Yeah. So when they meet me, they're like, how do I contact you? I'm like, No, you're just gonna find me. Anyway, um, what is your sex? Um, gay? No, that's your six year old male. You know, I like a girl. Um, what is your gender identity? What gender do you identify with males? [00:01:30] And obviously, sexuality is gay. Which culture do you identify with? Like my background? Like Modi, Modi and yeah, everyone, everyone. And how do you express yourself in a masculine or feminine? Sort of like half and half? Yeah, When I'm around, guys, I sort of tend to be a bit more gay and [00:02:00] I I just don't even care, you know, like another chick. And then you hang around other gays and like, Hi. Yeah, yeah, as you do. So, um So when did you first realise that you were attracted to males? About 12. 12. What happened? I was during our end of year camp. I kissed my best friend. So I and then Yeah, sort [00:02:30] of got out of the whole school, so it's pretty bad, but I was all right in the end. Yeah, just ended up moving to another school started over again. And then it happened again. Oh, no. II. I came out when I came out there fully and then ended up dropping out the next year. It was pretty. I was alright. It was pretty like I could handle the stuff. It was just annoying hearing people what they were saying. I was sort of like, get over yourself. [00:03:00] So you never were having a denial period where you were like, you didn't accept your sexuality or anything. Like I know how I feel about chicks. Like they're, like, mates or sisters or something. Like I can hang out with them. Yeah, I do like a couple of them, but never for what they look like. More their personalities. Like like a really, really good friend. I used to think, Oh, yeah, I want to go out with you. I like you. But then the way I feel about guys, it's totally different, [00:03:30] like, you know? Yeah. Yeah, actually, yeah, yeah. I'm attracted to their figure and what they look like and how they talk and stuff like that. Maybe less like that, But yeah. So you came out at 16. To who do you came out to first? One of my Really? I was sort of new friends. I sort of wanted to see how I should take it. And then I came out to my best friend, my two best friends at the time, and then to my mom [00:04:00] and then to a couple of other friends and then pretty much the whole school found out. But it was all good by then. What was the What was the general reaction to it, though? Because most of my friends are chicks like it used to be chicks. Um, they were pretty like, Oh, my gosh, This is so cool. I knew it. I knew it. And I was like, Oh, my God, you can take me shopping. Calm down, calm down. We can wear makeup together. They think it's like that. They think I'm like that. But like, man, I'll go shopping and they're like, What do I What [00:04:30] do you think of this? And I'm like, Put it on. I can't tell what it looks like when you're just holding it in front of me. It's like a bad session, a fucking session and fashion taste really bad. I just wear what other people wear. That's how I figure it or wear whatever in my closet. Yeah, yeah, I do follow trends. The trendy look. Are you doing the retail? He was like, What do you want to do with this? And I was like, No, don't chop it off. It's taken a while to grow this. [00:05:00] Oh, no, you're a little, but it feels like pretty disgusting. Why did you keep it? Like heaps of split ends? I don't know, Like, and he made it look really retarded a lot. But he's, like, made it square. And then that I was like, I told him to do it like that. He don't listen, but it's all right. He did a pretty good job anyway, Um, So you were quite You had a support system, Really? For people accepting your [00:05:30] Yeah. Yeah. I had people to talk to and stuff, like, you know, when people would say things. I just ignore them. None of my friends had anything bad to say, but yeah, I only told my mum out of my family. And then, um, my sister found out not too long after, and yeah, it was pretty, like, kept it pretty tight for a while and then just got out. But the only people I didn't want to know My dad and my nan and my brother and they, like no one that knew knew them. So it was pretty like I felt I didn't really care about who knew because I don't really care about the opinions, [00:06:00] but just my dad, my nan and my brother. They still don't know. They don't know my dad. He got told by his best friend because his best friend went out with my best friend's sister. They like husband and wife, and that's my dad's friend since high school. So I was pretty trippy like when I moved in with my mate and I found out that her sister's husband was my dad's school mate and they still hang out and stuff. I was like, Trippy. But yeah, he ended up telling my dad, but my dad sort of slightly said, like he's all right with it [00:06:30] pretty much. He just said, He's all right with it As long as I keep it to myself and don't you know, have guys walking through the house naked and shit like, you know? Oh, yeah, he's all right. And that's what the street world thinks about us exactly. But my brother, I think he knows it. But apparently he's denying it because, um, it's quite funny because you never denied your sexuality. But your brother is denying your sexuality. Yeah, like he just doesn't believe it, because When I'm around him, I act like a guy. Anything else he'd be like, [00:07:00] What the fuck are you on about? So it's pretty. Yeah. I think he just doesn't realise what I'm really like. Put it forward. So do you know? Are you ever gonna tell him? No. They already know. I don't really need to tell them. Like, Like, maybe if I get a partner that I feel like I should introduce to my family Like a real good partner, you know that I feel like I'm going to be with for a while. Like I have a partner at the moment. And he's been introduced to my mom, but that's about it and my sister. But I haven't [00:07:30] taken a Yeah, I don't want my dad to find out, though. She's like a Christian like devil worshipping and shit. She's like, you know, even though it doesn't really it in you, I know she'd accept it, but I just don't want to give her the opportunity to, like, you know, I just want when she finds out, she finds out. I don't think my dad would ever tell her. Just in case he thinks that she might get a heart attack. [00:08:00] I had a heart attack, too. So not really. Just Christmas Day. Last year had to be on Christmas Day. It's her favourite day of the year, and she has a heart attack. Maybe too much excitement. Oh, my God. Now she doesn't get a new present. She just loves buying like Christmassy stuff like she sets up a whole lounge like a Christmas town village. She has, like, the Froy foamy stuff for the snow. And like all these little people and the houses have lights inside, so it makes it look like the lights [00:08:30] are on and street lights. It's like crazy. She's how it gets into it. Has she actually started putting it up yet? No, She puts it up about the end of November or starts to because it takes about a whole month to bloody. She puts stickers on the door and then take a whole month to take it down. Yeah, she, like usually leaves the stickers on just because she can't be bothered scraping them off and having to scrub their sticky stuff off. She's like we still got one Christmas that got on our toilet from last Christmas like they just no one decided to yank off. [00:09:00] One of them just fell off. That was on the toilet seat that just fell off. And I just remember seeing it on the ground somewhere. And I was, like, checked it out. It was like, That's been on the toilet for about what, 67 months? I was like, man. So you're currently in a relationship? Yeah. What's that like for you? Hard. Why is that? Uh, so much to do. So many places to be so many people to please, [00:09:30] because I have my puppy. And then how many relationships are you in? No, I just mean like, you know, I've got to be home for my mom and my puppy and I got to be at work. And then I got to be with my boyfriend, and it's like, works pretty much half the day, every single day of the week that I'm there more than half the day. Most of the time, I'm sleeping the other half, and then on top of that, I've got to be like in two different places at two different times, and he's moaning, and we currently had a fight about my ex best friend. Um, she [00:10:00] stole off me. Um, he didn't like her, but because she sort of took me in when I needed a place to go. Um, I let her live with me for a while, and I was, like, pretty much paying for our food, paying for, like, petrol to get us around, taking her to her interviews at once so she could get on the benefit. I mean, I was paying for it for about six weeks until her benefit got accepted and she got back paid, and then the first thing she wanted to spend the money on was pretty much just drugs. I was like, Oh, fuck, yeah. And we had a big argument about that. And then I let it go and then [00:10:30] had another argument. Let it go. Just keep letting things go. And then Junior and my boyfriend, he got over it and just said, you know, I don't want to hear anywhere near me. And then we were just like I had to be there for her because she was staying at my nan's house. You know, I couldn't just leave it there by herself. So pretty much as soon as I finished, we got got out there and she'd want to drink. So we drink, You know, I want to have a drink after work. And he was just, like, felt like he was being left out sort of thing, which is completely understandable. I just needed to spend more time with him. Yeah, so we're all right, I suppose, [00:11:00] than as relationships do. So, um, how do you meet other people in the gay community? No, I don't Really. They meet you like Oh, no, like on Facebook, mainly. But I don't really talk to any of them because I don't really know them. I only talk to people. I know I'm not good at bringing up conversations. So, um, what is your definition of virginity? Does that mean [00:11:30] in my version, What does that mean? What is your definition like, What's your personal opinion on on virginity? I gets lost at a young age. I don't know. I don't know. I don't really have a personal opinion. It's like Hm. You never thought about it before? No. Never occurred to you. No thinking about when you're thinking about [00:12:00] it. Now what do you think about it? Are you talking about being a virgin? A. Yeah, Um, when I think about it most of the time, I think I am still a virgin in one way. Because, like, you know how When chicks lose their virginity, all that stuff happens. And I haven't really done that fully. Not yet. So I still feel like Yeah, yeah, I know, but I still haven't had sex fully, like, so I still feel like I am, you know, but don't know what I'm doing. Sort of thing [00:12:30] Sort of scares me a bit. Sex. It's just like, you know, But on the weary side, I don't really want to get into it with anyone that I don't really. You know, I just don't want to hurt anyone's feelings and stuff. And that's why I think the main thing with my boyfriend is I don't want to hurt his feelings. Yeah, that's something waiting to happen. Yeah. So, um, have you ever experienced or received any abuse because of your sexuality or gender identity? [00:13:00] No, Um, in high school, you know, a couple of little things. Just like people. Yeah, verbally just abusing me. But it was like, get over it, sort of thing. You know, just walk away. No point in getting into an argument, but a couple of people like, yeah, we've got into arguments, and I've mentioned a couple of things, and I've definitely back my shit up. You know? It's like, No, it's been pretty good. Mhm. Yeah, Well, thank you for that interview. That's all right. Thank you.

IRN: 673
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_ryan.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004039
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089333
TITLE: Ryan - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Gay-OK; Hawkes Bay; Napier; Q12 (series); abuse; bisexual; domestic violence; facebook. com; family; friends; homophobia; media; mental health; movies; psychology; relationships; school; stress; violence; youth
DATE: 16 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Napier, Napier, Hawkes Bay
CONTEXT: In this podcast Ryan talks about being young and bisexual in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? Good. Good. That's good. Who are you? Ryan. Hello, Ryan. Hello, Benji. So, um, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Well, I'm 18 and I go to EIT. And I live in Napier. OK, anything else at this stage, I can't really think of anything else. What music you're into. Um, I'm into quite a lot of different genres of music, like pop, [00:00:30] rap, country rock, believe it or not, And hobbies and likes. Well, I love writing, watching movies and just hanging with friends. So what do you do at EIT? Well, I have studied film and media, and I'm planning to do human psychology and behavioural therapy. Where are you going to do that? I'm thinking actually, about doing that as a correspondence, but I [00:01:00] may take it as a full degree subject. Where most likely Messy. Or Victoria Wellington? On palmy? Um, I don't know, I. I think Wellington looks like a good variety at this stage. No, you can do things in Wellington. Yeah, indeed you can. However, there is a lot of gay people in palmy, but actually, there's a lot of gay people in both places. any [00:01:30] who So, um what is your sex? Well, are male and bisexual Male Is your sex sexuality yet? OK, what what gender do you identify with to explain? Well, like, um, you're male some, And if you're talking about transgenders, they could be born as male, but they gender identify with [00:02:00] female or vice versa. Or if you're, um, or for, um for me, I'm a male, and I my gender identity is male. I see your point. So I guess I'd be male. And now well, I'm bisexual, believe it or not. And, uh, cultural identity explain what culture do you identify with any? Really? [00:02:30] Any New Zealand European? Doesn't matter. And how do you express yourself? Masculine feminine in between. In between, I guess depending Who? The person I guess someone was OK and OK. When did you realise that you had attractions for the same gender? I don't know. I guess I didn't really start noticing till about 12. 11. Maybe. What happened? [00:03:00] I don't know. It's I mean, you have to remember it's happened so long ago and, you know, you mix details up and you don't pay attention to anything, but I don't know just I've been treated by sexes since then, I guess. I, I honestly believe I can't go further back then, at 12 to 11, was there like an instance where you noticed, like another boy in class. And you getting feelings or attractions, I guess. [00:03:30] I guess so. Yeah. Could be, like a classmate or a friend or a best friend. No. Teacher? No. No, I think it started off with just kind of someone in the class. And then we became friends and, yeah, just like any other soap opera, I guess. Did it did it ever became even more than that. It did. It became a lot more, but it kind of really end is what? Normal? Not normal. [00:04:00] But what kind of does happen? It kind of ended, actually. Quite tragic. What happened? Let's just say it kind of ended. It didn't end violently, but there were violent parts of the relationship, but just Yeah, we just I haven't I've only saw him. What? We went to the same high school together, but I had really nothing to do with him, but yeah, I see him uptown now [00:04:30] and again, but I just try to avoid as much contact I have with him. So did you ever deny your sexuality to my friends? I have never lied to them about it to myself. No, I haven't. I don't believe in lying to myself. And did you ever not accept your sexuality? I've always accepted who I am. And, um So when did you come up? [00:05:00] I don't know. I, I think Probably 34 years ago. I guess. I came out to my friends due to severe stress. And I kind of had a minor breakdown during my year. 11 and everything. Just kind of the shit. The shit did hit the fan a bit, but yeah, who did You came out, came out to three of my best friends and one of my best friends boyfriends. Believe it or not, [00:05:30] what was the reaction to that? They didn't actually care. They just thought Oh, OK. Was the what was the What did I say? Really? They just said they're happy for me. And they accepted who I was and didn't actually care at the time. Uh, no, no, I wasn't actually with anyone, but I did. I did see someone, but it wasn't serious, and it ended. So you've So, [00:06:00] um, what's it like being bisexual in Napier? It's OK. There are. There are a lot of people, you know that are the same as you. You just, you know, got to look and not be close minded, as you could say. But apart from that, it's all good. Is there a group in Napier? Yeah, there is. The group has it just started from my knowledge of it. It started. I think either beginning [00:06:30] of this year or very, very late last year. I think it was memory. Serves me right. I haven't actually asked the co-founder of it. Yeah, I think it actually began in officially began in July. But I think it began earlier this year. I guess so. I'm not so sure. I haven't actually asked the person that actually founded it yet. When did you attend it? I actually joined it because of my best friend who was actually gay [00:07:00] at the time. But at the time, Well, who is gay? But I just joined it. This year is to support him. But over time, I actually found the people there to be extremely nice. And as you could say, different from what the other stereotypes? I guess people have for them. When was that? How do you mean? What month? Um, the most Recently I saw them, I think the 21st of September this year. [00:07:30] And that was at a dinner function for the group. And there were about 17 of us, I think maybe 18. So it's a small group, but it's progressively getting bigger. It is. It is, um, throughout New Zealand. And we even have a member in America. And I think Germany, um, there's about 100 and 83 of us, I think last time I looked it's just mainly based in Hawkes Bay. Yeah. [00:08:00] How many from Hawke's Bay? I think about 100 and 30. So there's quite a bit. And it's open to all ages, isn't it? It's a QS a, isn't it? Yeah. So not just gay people. Bi people, lesbian people. It's open completely to the public. However, the majority of them are LGBTI Q. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, did you have the support [00:08:30] about your sexuality? Um, not really. My friends just accepted who I was, and yeah, we've remained open ever since. I don't believe in lying to anyone. But my friends have accepted everything and have seen strong. And even some of them are bisexual. You should bring them around. I can interview them. Help me out. Yeah, I should. But I think Kayla would be a bit unease of being interviewed. And Jacob, I have no idea where he's. [00:09:00] I think he's actually in Hastings with his boyfriend. I'm not so sure. My God. See, this is what happens when you don't have phone credit. Oh, So you've been in relationships before? Yes, I have. And flings? Yes. How many relationships have you been in? To be honest, I don't actually count. I try not to stay with a number. I think it's just extremely weird. And I try not to think [00:09:30] about thinking about it now. How many do you think? I don't know. I don't want to sound like a slut on the court. I highly doubt that you would sound like a slut. I don't know. Maybe easily. Between 15 to onwards. I don't know. Are they relationships or flings relationships and flings? So that mix in between? Yes, they are. Would you like to tell us about one of your relationships? well, or, [00:10:00] uh, going back to when I was younger. I did. I was with somebody for about a few years. I guess two or three years, maybe. And this was during my primary school early intermediate years. I was quite young. Yeah, I was, I don't know about eight, maybe nine when I started. I don't have a relationship when you're eight or nine years ago. Yeah, we got to put a time machine and go back. I actually it [00:10:30] feels so long, though. I actually Oh, my God, it does feel so weird and probably makes no sense who never actually heard something like that before. Being in a relationship like it's like puppy love in a way, But being in a relationship when you're eight with another guy, it's like, almost unheard of, but it's amazing. At the same time, it started out as amazing, but we remember when we were young and we did a lot of stupid things, and it did [00:11:00] end badly, though, but over time I've I've managed to kind of do the whole forgive and forget thing, but it's just it's just hard to accept that it's actually happened and what's happened And you really can't deny the fact that any of it is false. It's just one of those sad fucking things that have happened, and you kind of have to move on from the fact. But it was a very mixed, wasn't it? Yeah, like it started [00:11:30] off good ended badly. Yeah. It went along the lines of kind of like a love triangle thing and just ended in a I love. Yeah. Did he fell? And someone else? No, it was kind of the other way, right? It was to do with me, but for full record, you got to remember we were very young. We were, like, eight and nine, and you know that says, you know, nothing better, but yeah, it's kind of [00:12:00] one of I think, one of the most things I do regret in my life, practically when you're eight or nine, the only thing you really think is like, Hello. I have a foot. Exactly. That is exactly what it felt like. But nothing's ever happened with either of them ever since I've actually kind of cut contact from both of them, even though it was, like, 10 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. So, um How do you meet other people in the LGBTI Q community? Um, [00:12:30] while we talk mostly on Facebook, Um, there is one person who, ironically, I did start talking to on the wall of the gay a K group. And then we actually rapidly became friends, and I added him, but yeah, apart from that, you just met a lot of people through the website and add them as friends. And you click like that. Have you ever meet anybody from pages like NZDAKANZ dating dot com or manhunt [00:13:00] dot com or the whole, um, iPod iPod touch iPhone grinder? No, I haven't met. I seem to be very experienced in this. No, I The only way I met anyone is either through Facebook or probably the street corner street corner. For the record, I'm not a prostitute. It's just Hey, I have to make light humour of myself or otherwise. It just ends tragically. Hey, [00:13:30] how much is it? Enough. Welcome to K Road, right? Well, you haven't seen the one on nape yet yet. Oh, dear. I should stop while on my head. I'm kind of belittling the city. I I don't know that if you had a rewrite district. You'd be surprised what happens behind closed doors or bushes, Anyhoo, or at school. What is your definition of virginity [00:14:00] or your personal opinion? On what? Everything in general? No virginity? I don't know. It's I think it's just what? Just what everyone thinks of virginity. You know, the first time you have sex. Basically, is that your opinion of it? But it's what I've grown up to believe. But I, I honestly can't answer that question because it's just I have nothing against it. It's just I actually wouldn't know what to say about [00:14:30] it. Yes. Do you think it could be more than just a sexual physical thing? Absolutely. I do believe it. It could mean a lot to people. It's just I have a feeling we've kind of been lied to throughout the years of what words actually mean. So I kind of can't really comment or speculate. What is your What do you think it is? I believe it is truly I think it's the first time you fall in love. [00:15:00] OK, uh, have you experienced or received any abuse or abusive behaviour because of your sexuality or gender identity? I'm not gonna lie on tape. But, yes, I have a bit, Yes, but you could call it a bit. But yeah, it's It's not what they depict in horror movies or dramas, but it's Yeah, I've had my fair share fair share of shit in the last few years. It's actually been both. [00:15:30] Yeah, which one has way more, I think, due to my mental state over the years, it's probably been physical abuse, but it seems to be verbal abuse. That seems to be the domino pattern of my mental state. That just triggers a lot. Well, thank you for the interview. You're welcome.

IRN: 672
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_ben_b.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004038
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089332
TITLE: Ben (b) - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Hawkes Bay; Napier; Q Bay (Napier); Q12 (series); Wellington; abuse; coming out; facebook. com; family; gay; homophobia; internet; love; religion; school; sci-fi; sex; tourism; travel; twitter. com; violence; youth
DATE: 16 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Napier, Napier, Hawkes Bay
CONTEXT: In this podcast Ben talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you tonight? I'm good. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Um, I was originally from Wellington. Moved to when I was two. And I currently 19. Currently 19. Um, what's your likes and hobbies? Um, I'm interested in sci fi comedy type programmes. Um, I'm interested in tourism and travel at the moment. [00:00:30] I will probably move on to medicine in two years. Are you studying at the moment? Yes. Tourism and travel fun. And, um yes. Um, are you also working or just studying? Just studying. Just studying. So, um, what is your sex? Um, male male. Um, what is your What gender do you identify with male And [00:01:00] what is your sexuality? And what culture do you identify with? And how do you express yourself in a masculine, feminine way? In between camp twink bear cub? Uh, I let people design that judge by others judged by others. [00:01:30] When did you realise that you had attractions to the same gender? Probably 10, 11, 10, 11. What happened? Um, I know it would be earlier. Maybe six. Really. Six, 766767. Yeah. So [00:02:00] what was, um what happened? That made you realise that, um, I had a, um probably, uh, emotional connection to another male. Ok, did that emotional connection with the other male is the transformed into something else because they moved away. Puppy love at the age of six, but no. So, [00:02:30] um, did you ever deny your sexuality For about how long did you deny it? Maybe. And maybe, um, for a few years, A few years. And then you accepted it. At what age? Um, last year last year. But it's more than that. Makes no sense. You realised when [00:03:00] you were six and you denied it for a few years. And now last year he accepted it when I was six. I just started it and I realised when I was 11, then for May. Maybe several. Not a few. That makes more sense. So when you were 11, what made you realise that you that you're attracted to males can't quite put my was it like looking? You [00:03:30] noticed, Like all the boys in your class. Seems you seem to be attracted to or something. Something similar like that. So, um, So I accepted it last year. Yes. What was going through Your mind. Um, I was attracted to males [00:04:00] apart from that, um, that I didn't have to hide who I really was That you didn't have to keep it a secret. I didn't have to hate me for me. When did you come out? Last year. Last year. So, um who did you come out to first? My sister. What was her reaction? She was accepting? How did you actually told her? How did you tell [00:04:30] her? Did you like it out to her? I think she knew, though. Did she say something like, Oh, yeah, I knew she did. Did you say to her? Why didn't you tell me? Uh, I think my whole family, um, knew did Did they actually say? Oh, yeah. It was obvious. Uh, yeah, something like that. Yeah. So I noticed that you never brought any girls home, But you've always had the occasional best friend. [00:05:00] Uh, probably, uh, Well, my best friend is a person is a, um someone. Someone who's by. So. And they knew that he was by They knew that he was by, Has she? No, that's That's not a good stuff for me. Um Did they knew that she was by, um, I don't think they do. No, I tell them. You know, it's not your place to tell them [00:05:30] exactly. Yeah. So, um, what's it like being a gay person in Napier? We have to go over that. Yeah. I. I don't really mutual feelings, mutual feelings. I don't really think it's that bad. You don't think it's that bad? I wouldn't change my sexuality. That's what you need? No, not if it changes your sexuality. [00:06:00] Um, does, um, do you ever feel like, um, there is that you feel like, alone or something like that? Or do you feel like there's that they appear as abusive place for gay people or anything like that? Uh, 50 50 50 50? Yeah. How big is the community in Napier? The gay community? I would have no idea. You don't have any idea? No. Is there a youth group in? [00:06:30] Isn't this uh maybe Cuba? Cuba? Where's QA? I would have no idea. You just know about Cuba, but you don't attend it. I know about Cuba. I've never heard about Cuba before. Hm. So, um yes, yes. Um, So So you never [00:07:00] attended new K? Um, I have just joined recently District recently. So, um, when you came out, did you come out to your friends? Um, we came out to my sister. We've been over. This is the first person you came out to. Is your sister the only person that you came out to? Um, yes, at that time. What [00:07:30] about now? Probably majority of people I know. Know? Yeah. What? What was their reaction? They were accepting? We would hope. Yes, we would. Hope. Yeah. So have you. How many people are actually out to the majority of them? How many people are you out to, like your school friends or your parents? Parent parent? Um, she knows [00:08:00] that's good. So, um, you have a bit of a support system for people supporting your sexuality. That's good. So, um, have you been in relationships before? No. No. Why is that? Because I didn't want a relationship. Do you feel like you could be a What's it called? Um, as well. No, not as a romantic. Do you feel like that? You're asexuals? [00:08:30] No. No, he's very sure of that. No, I like my sex. Um, So, um, do you feel that? Sort of maybe on the a romantic. It's a possibility. Why do you feel that? Because I believe people will fall in love, But then it eventually won't work. Hm. Ok, Is there any particular [00:09:00] reason why you feel that way? Because I've seen it time after time. Haven't we all? Yeah, we all. I guess we all have seen that, but not necessarily always end. Look at my grandparents. They like they've been together for, like, 50 something years. I think my mum's not that accepting. She's more religious, though. OK, How was [00:09:30] that when you told her? Was she, um what happened was she laughed. It was horrible. She laughed at your sexuality. In what way? Well, obviously was. Was it like a Ha ha? No, But seriously, like, Oh, what a funny joke kind of thing. Or she was like, mocking you. It was a funny joke. It's like she thinks my best friend, like we're in a relationship. It's just odd. But you and your boy friend [00:10:00] Yes. Who is not currently in New Zealand. She's back in Germany. Oh, is she from Germany? So that's strange. Really? Do you feel like she's, um Is she a closed minded type person? I probably. No. No, she's not. She's just trying to deny. I think we have conflicting views. [00:10:30] Is she, um, denying your sexuality or is just not accepting? Um, that would probably be 70% Um, accepting, probably tiny, but not This is a bit she accepts you because you're her son. But at the same time, she doesn't like it. Yeah, basically. So, um, how do you meet other people in the LGBTI [00:11:00] Q community? Um hm. How would I describe that? Um mm. Facebook, maybe. Twitter. Twitter? Yeah. Do you use Twitter? Yeah, I do use Twitter, but I know that people would actually be good to find people. Yeah, you just follow people. [00:11:30] You know what their thoughts are. Isn't that the whole point, but slightly. But I get conversations with people on Twitter. Of course, we're thinking together. So, um, so you use Facebook and Twitter? Oh, I barely use Facebook. Now, Twitter is a new thing for you. [00:12:00] Facebook is the pastime. I find facebook exhausting. Don't we all is there? Um do you ever use like something like NZDAK a inter dating or manhunt or grinder? You've used manhunt I was gonna say is avoid dating sites. Yeah. Why is that? Because [00:12:30] I find them disgusting. I feel so disgusted in myself. I feel like I've been, um, over overly experienced in this dating site. So, um, so what is your what? I was just saying it's 21 21. What does that mean? The time I was going to say [00:13:00] I thought there was some talk. Anyway, um, where was I? Oh, yes. Um, what is your personal definition of virginity? Um, taking ones having, um I wouldn't know. Maybe. Um um, first time, maybe. Do you feel like it's only a physical thing? No. It can be an emotional thing as well. [00:13:30] Yes. OK, then. Oh, have you ever received or experienced any abuse or abusive behaviour because of your sexuality or gender identity? Um, yes. Haven't we all? Would you like to expand on that, uh, probably abusive name calling. Uh, what else? What's the What's the biggest thing [00:14:00] that has happened to you in an abusive way? Um, I got a shoe thrown at my head. Really? Yes. Who throws a shoe will say that throwing a shoe at someone's the worst offence. The worst off? Yeah, I got a shoe thrown at my head. Really? Was it in class or something back in high school or something? So when people, um, verbally [00:14:30] abuse you, what do they say? Um, big game. I know. Whatever you know. And what do you react to that? How do you I just ignore it because it doesn't really affect me anymore, because it's like, Yes, I am well done. Well, thank you for the interview. Thank you.

IRN: 671
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_joseph.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004037
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089331
TITLE: Joseph - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: Aotearoa New Zealand; Club Q (Palmerston North); Foxton; Gay-OK; Hawkes Bay; Manawatu Lesbian and Gay Rights Association (MALGRA); Napier; Q12 (series); abuse; bullying; coming out; cooking; domestic violence; drag; facebook. com; family; friends; gay; homophobia; nzdating. com; performance; pornography; regions; relationships; self harm; sex; social; venues; violence; youth
DATE: 17 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Napier, Napier, Hawkes Bay
CONTEXT: In this podcast Joseph talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm good. Thanks. That's good. How are you, Joseph? Hello, Joseph. Uh, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? I'm 25 live in Napier. Sunny, but yet windy. Now, Um, I am an app. Princess Baker. 1. 5 years in. I've been working at the same cafe for three years. Loving the job. Got a nice partner. [00:00:30] Yeah. Yeah. Living a dream? Yeah. What is your likes and hobbies? Um, I do like cooking. I like baking. I love coffee. Chocolate. And I love, um I love performing. Performing? Yeah. So you're into theatre and stuff? Um, yeah. Putting on a show put on entertaining whether it's dressing [00:01:00] up, doing a bit of drag things like that. Yeah. Have you ever been to the palmy? Um, gay club club Q? Yeah. Yeah, I went there once on a Saturday night and there was three people there. Those people were my friends. Yeah, that's the underground club. That's not so underground. Yeah, it's all the straight bars like Melbourne, I think. [00:01:30] Yeah. So, um what is your sex Male? Yes. What gender do you identify with male? What is your sexuality? gay? Yeah. What culture do you identify with? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And how do you express yourself in a masculine, feminine camp, Butch? [00:02:00] In between, it's probably a cliche, but just straight acting. Straight acting or kind of just just an average gentleman. I don't know. Would you like to tear? Oh, jolly good without the accent. Yeah, without the accent. Um, I can be feminine. I can I can be feminine if I really want to be. But [00:02:30] usually with the amount of hair I've got it just people look at me and they just think I'm kind of straight. Yeah, fair enough. So, um, when did you realise? Um, it's basically been in my head the whole my whole life, but I didn't fully I didn't I didn't actually think there was something like that. And me until I was about 17. 17. [00:03:00] Roughly. Yeah. Maybe maybe maybe 12, 12 or 17? Yeah, they stick in my head. We're like, sitting in them like a classroom and, you see, you know, as a boy across the room and then the eyes no more. Just sexual looking at, um, looking at straight porn and or porn magazines and It was a cock, and it was like, Oh, that's hot. But like, it was like it wasn't [00:03:30] It wasn't the female part part of the porn. It was the male part that I was interested in. It's like if you look at the female page, it's like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, all male. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got slightly turned on more than but did you ever went through a denial period? Yeah, of course. Of course. Yeah, of course it wasn't. It wasn't big. No, I wasn't. No, I wasn't more. It was more. Just not knowing that [00:04:00] that was the fear of the unknown. Yeah. And now I had to be stuck like that for the rest of my life. That was the kind of did you ever felt like you had to keep it a secret for 2 to 3 years before you came out? Yeah, it was. It was horrible because the town I was living in Fox Fox. Um, between palmy and Wellington. If you blink, you will miss [00:04:30] it. Is it like near Masterton or something? No, no. Maybe because is on this side. So it just kind of jump, right? Right. It's a small, small, shitty town with very narrow minded people. So yeah. Yeah. So the norm was being straight. That's it. If you were anything else. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, I saw someone I knew. Um, [00:05:00] So when did you come out? It's about 18. 18. 5 and a half. So, um, who did you come up to first? I would have been a friend. A close friend? Um, Yeah. Like a couple of close friends and a couple of gay friends I knew and had already known. And [00:05:30] and then my mum via via text. What was the general reaction? Um, it was It was mixed. It was half and half between. 00, I didn't know. 00, really? Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, Oh, yeah, yeah. I kind of figured that there's reasons why you're gay. Yeah. Thanks. Hm. So So how did you tell them? [00:06:00] Text, text, text or email or over the phone? What genuinely did you say on your texts? Um, I think that's just what everyone else would say. I've got something really important to, um to tell you. I'm not too sure how you take it, but this is This is fact. I'm gay. The end and and [00:06:30] it kind of leaves some room for anyone to kind of give their feedback. Yeah. Did you ever get the reaction where they say, Oh, this is just a phase? Yeah. No, not a phase. Like, did you ever get someone that says, Oh, so I must have hacked your phone or something like that? No, but people did say a couple of my friends said, 00, you just you just go out of it. Which you haven't. No, I haven't. No grown, but not out of it. Hm. [00:07:00] Hm. So, um, what was your mother's reaction? I I she she already knew. Yeah. Mother's instinct. They always know. Yeah. I don't get that. Is it? Like, um, when you were born, a rainbow came out of the uterus or Oh, yeah, Kind of a for a Yeah. Yeah. When when the water breaks, There's, um, kind of rainbow. It's like a rainbow. No, I. I [00:07:30] think it's woman's intuition. Woman's intuition. Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Well, they haven't. They They've got you for nine months. So they're gonna know something. Yeah, It's the hormones that give it to them. Yes, hormones. So, um, did you have a support system? No, no, no. No people. No, not at all. No, no, I had to do it by myself. Um, [00:08:00] yeah. I was too scared. People just pointed and judged. And so, uh, yeah, it it was a very slow process. So, uh, do you go to any LGBTI Q groups, or have you been to one? I have been to one, but that was the youth group. That was the, um, the incorporation meeting. What was What was that? That was just to, um, to sign, sign [00:08:30] their life away just to, um, get enough. The youth group want to get enough signatures to, um, be incorporated? Which youth group was that Gay. OK, Yes. For for Hawke's Bay Bay. I have no idea. I I've been to one meeting and I've only had one other meeting, I think. But I've got my own group. What's your group? It's doesn't have a name. It's [00:09:00] more of a social thing. It's the unknown group of Yeah, I I'm just gonna I don't know. Oh, I'll pick a I I'll think of a clever name. Hot sky. Yeah. Yeah. You're thinking about it aren't you? That's cool. There's a ring to it. Yeah, Let's use it. So I just started that a couple of weeks ago. Um, about 10 members or 10 people turned up and just threw around our ideas, and we were just gonna get together every [00:09:30] couple of weeks and just do something, um, social have dinner or something? Yeah. Last night I had a dinner, and that went very well. Yeah, that's good. So, um, you've been You're in a relationship, Obviously. Obviously, you've been in relationships before. Many, many, many. I'm 25. So I've I've been there and done that. And in the smallest amount of small amount of time, I've I've I think Kim Kim later. Quite a what would have more flings or relationships flings. [00:10:00] I mean, clings. Thanks. Yeah, Yeah. Your voice broke. Thanks. Yeah, Thanks. Thanks. Why so the side trying to come out When was your first relationship? Make me remember? Um shit. There's a toilet down there. Well, I've had a few girlfriends, [00:10:30] but first, um, same sex relationship. It was probably Yeah, probably. When I was maybe 2020. Yeah, possibly 20 actually. How did you feel when you were dating a girl. Did you ever feel like this wasn't right or anything like that? Well, I, I think as a teenager growing up in, uh, this society or this world, you you kind [00:11:00] of sexually your Penis goes for a vagina. OK? Not everyone, but I think generally so then, um, sex was fine with the girls for that period of time, but I couldn't stand them emotionally in that. I just felt like cutting their throats so bitchy and yuck, they're not fearless enough. No, no, not enough here. So, [00:11:30] um, would you like to give us, uh, tell us, uh, experience you had with a relationship or I have the best 10, this is This is good. Um, I I was I was living by myself. I was, um, having sex with random people and regulars and everything. Just having fun, just working, living, having fun. And, of course, on NZD. Um, [00:12:00] I met this guy and he turned out to be OK. And at that time, I was only in it for sex, but we went out for two weeks. He lived in Hawke's Bay. I lived in Fox, and then I broke it off because I just didn't like him. Think it was two years later, Did the same thing, um saw him into dating again. And [00:12:30] then And he got, um, got talking and we started to go out and he'd make a trip over here. I'd make the trip over there and so forth, and then he convinced me to move over to, um, Hawke's Bay. So I did. And I knew he had a temper. But, um, as soon as I moved over here, I moved into a place with them. And that's basically just where shit hit the fan. And yeah, you don't [00:13:00] know someone until you really live with them. Yeah, and it showed. So he was He was really insecure. So he and angry. So he took a lot of his anger out and a lot of his insecurities out and twists them around. He was basically a manipulator and an abuser and all that. So 32 years, three years, 2. 5 years of, um, getting beaten up and [00:13:30] bullied and just the just the whole shebang and led me to cutting my arm up in a few places and my legs and that and eventually one person said it was just this one person kind of random and said, You need to go see someone. I've got someone who can help you. Here's their number. And I went to that person, and that's where I turned my life around. That's where I said, [00:14:00] Nah, fuck you. Fat shit. And yeah, how do you meet other people in the community? Word of mouth. It's small. Napier is a small town and you meet everybody. Everybody's there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or end of dating or Facebook? Yeah. So what is your definition of virginity? The genesis? Yes. [00:14:30] See? Well, what What's your definition? Like your personal definition? Your or your opinion, huh? I guess if you're incorporating every single person on the earth, um, if you put it in a hole I, I guess it's done. OK, I, I guess. But But a part of me also thinks, [00:15:00] um um you've got a sick in a vagina, but I don't know. It could could just be my traditional. Yeah. Have you ever received or experienced any abuse or abusive behaviour because of your sexuality or gender identity? Yes, Yes. Always. Yes. People like to my straight friends. Sometimes they, um, use it as a joke. [00:15:30] They can. They can play with it. They think they can play with it. And they think they think it's OK. Yeah, well, they they are. They're OK with it, But it's just like you're gay. Oh, Joe, that guy's hot. What do you think? What do you think of him? Yeah, he's ugly. OK, whatever. But But need in my opinion or clothes, that's the worst thing. Like, you and me can go shopping. I was like, Oh, is that what? That's all I'm good for? Yeah, Great. Well, thank [00:16:00] you for the interview. You're welcome.

IRN: 670
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_erik.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004036
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089330
TITLE: Erik - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Gay-OK; Grindr; Hawkes Bay; Napier; Q12 (series); coming out; cooking; family; fishing; friends; gay; gym; isolation; nzdating. com; reading; regions; relationships; sex; sport; venues; video games; youth
DATE: 7 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Napier, Napier, Hawkes Bay
CONTEXT: In this podcast Erik talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I am good. Thank you. OK, Eric, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Um, yeah. Um, so 26 working in sort of engineering industry. Um, you can ask me about my hobbies anyway. So, um yeah, I don't know. What else do you want to do? Do you? What type of What's your personality like? Tell us a little bit about your personality. Personality. Um, [00:00:30] are we Are we going towards the whole camp thing yet? No, no, no, no. OK, sorry. I'll say I've learned. Um, very sort of dry humour. Um, ironic. Um, straight forward. Um, open, Open, Open, mostly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It can be taken as being mean, but very, very, very truthful. Blunt people blunt. Thank you. That's the word I was looking for. Very blunt. Um, spend a bit of time, um, gym outside, going [00:01:00] for runs. Used to play hockey. Not so much anymore. Um, yeah. So are you from Napier, Born and raised, Born, raised bread, everything. So what's your likes and hobbies? Um, like getting into fly fishing. It's a hobby. Reading, cooking, clean, clean, everything he doesn't do. So yeah, getting out there Basically going to the gym. Hobby, exercise. Um, getting on the river, fly fishing, [00:01:30] um, reading. Do play a little bit of Xbox and things, but yeah, Mainly more into reading and getting things done. OK, so what is your sex male and your gender identity? Male and sexuality and culture Identity. New Zealand European. And it's very fast. We should do this more in slow motion. Um, otherwise we get a quick interview. Um, and how do you express yourself? [00:02:00] This is the whole camp question. Masculine. Probably go to the masculine. Straight acting. Yeah, you're very butch. Thanks. You got the whole muscular thing, but yeah, you're more of a bear than you think. I've been trying to avoid that, but there is a Yes, I've got tattoos and I'm a little bit hairy. Please don't call me a bit. I know the beer community in Auckland. I'm very proud of being bears. [00:02:30] Of course, they're also very proud of wearing leather half the time as well. Leather free, free. Are you happy? Yes. No, they're definitely not a happy, happy hope Smokers can burn in hell. The anti smoke anti weed hippie. Yeah. Yeah, that's No, no, I'm not. I'm just, um very close to being a traditionalist without being one, so all that kind of thing doesn't really do much for me. I [00:03:00] That's the time I've ever heard before. Um, actually, yes, I have ex-boyfriend. Um, OK, where was I? Oh, yes. When did you realise I realised? Probably say early twenties or 2021. Really? Didn't you get sort of and bits and pieces, Really, But I was still somewhat going both ways. [00:03:30] Um, not not really. Sort of clicking with chicks, um, you know, finding finding guys attractive as well. Um, but it didn't click to you, but yeah, I didn't I wouldn't identify myself as gay until I sort of early twenties. Um, whether that was through denial or just not really recognising a realise thing until then. So you went for a big denial? Well, I was such denial. It kind of never really mattered [00:04:00] to me. And I never tried anything to sort of prove or disprove the idea that I was, So I just kind of sat back and I was like, Oh, yeah. And then sort of got into my 2021. Um tried And then yeah, accepted. Realised. And he had, like, kind of had thought of think about it. And you just click to you. Yes, pretty much. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so when you first, um So [00:04:30] you've been with girls before as well? Um, not all the way. No, no. Have you been in relationships? Um, been out on dates and shit, but not like having a girlfriend or anything like that. How did you feel when you went out with a girl? Awkward. Awkward? I mean, like, the whole beginning of the evening is fine. And then kind of like saying goodbye to each other at the end was very awkward. Apparently, you're not supposed to shake hands with a chick. [00:05:00] Ah, no, no, no. It didn't go down too well. It didn't go down too well anyway. No. Well done. So, um, recover and carry on. Recover and carry on. Um, OK, so how long did it take you to come out? Um, since [00:05:30] realising I was gay and coming out would be two years, 2. 5 years. 2. 5 years. Why did you Why was there a big window period? Um, between realising and probably fully accepting the fact. Um, also I I had come out to friends earlier, Um, a couple of my chick mates and bits and pieces that that I might just counted them straight away. Um, and then sort of like my mom. And that found out. So [00:06:00] it was It wasn't 1/4 coming out, but it wasn't really by choice. And that happened 2, 2. 5 years after. How did that happen? Um, basically a friend of my boyfriend's told my mother that we were going out. Yeah, well, he was a hairdresser and couldn't shut up and needed something to talk about. So how stereotypical. He's not gay. Bisexual? Not that we're aware of. He's [00:06:30] got three kids, OK, there's a ski. Confused. Um, get used to it. Anyway, um, So how did you come out to your, um, to the first person? How did you? Um, first person was Basically I developed a crush, so to speak, or had a crush on one of her mates. So I was like, I basically text her and said, Hey, look, I really like one of your mates, and she's like, who? And I just said the guy's name, Um [00:07:00] and she just text me like what I was like, Yeah. No, no. Like. And so then it was like it took her all of, like, half an hour to accept it and move on. Um, she was, like, in shock or something. Probably to start with. I know that. The second mate, I told Jenny she fell off her chair. Um, so, yeah, there was a little bit of shock there because I am reasonably butch. Um, so no one really kind of had a clue apart from the fact that I hadn't really gone out with the chick before, so yeah, it was a bit of a shocking for them, [00:07:30] I think. Yeah, that's actually quite amusing. Someone I actually fell off the chair. Yeah, because I I text, I text her as well. I really haven't done much of this face to face, but I text her as well and said, Hey, look, I you know, I've found something I like and like, Oh, who is it? And I was like, Oh, it is a guy and yeah, she she text me back about three minutes later, saying you actually made me fall off my chair. So whether or not it happened, I don't know. But that's the story. Yeah, that that's almost unheard of. They fell off the chair [00:08:00] because they found out that their friends No, she's all happy with it, But yeah, that was That was interesting. Did they even went up to you and say, Oh, we can go shopping? No, no, None of my friends were like that with me. I didn't I didn't really, um, attract any fag hag sort of thing. And you probably were getting ready to say fuck off them anyway very quickly. Yeah. No, not not my style to have a fag hag, so to speak. So you're more of the guy that goes [00:08:30] to a pub and drinks better? No, I don't drink at all. Well, if you if you did drink, um, yes. Why not? No, I mean, it was all good. Hang out with the chick mates, but I never wanted to be labelled as or or labelling my friends as fag hag. And they never really had that attitude where they were like, Oh, you're my bestie. You know that crap? Probably because I did come out in my early twenties, and I kind of over that, but yeah. Yeah. So, um, you had both people supported you in your sexuality? Practically. Yeah, but basically everyone I told to start [00:09:00] with was, um, very accepting. Slash Supportive from the start. Yeah. So have you ever attended a LGBTI Q group? Um, last week. Yeah. The first one is last week basically is gay. So that was the first one. What was that like for you? Um interesting. Um, nerve raking to start with and then relaxing by the end of it, when you're actually surrounded by somewhat similar people. Very different. But, um [00:09:30] yeah, yeah. Un identifiable and gay. Yeah. No, we're all there. Um, yeah, I think. Always For me, it's hard to be around them, not around them. That sounds horrible. Um, but I don't well, unlike my boyfriend, who can sort of get hit on by other guys. I doesn't happen for me because I probably look more like the person who's going to turn and bash someone who hits on me or talks to me opposed as to actually talk to them. So it was quite good to be in a group where no one was afraid I was going to [00:10:00] hit them. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. So, um, obviously, you're in a relationship. Currently? Yes. He's in the back seat at the moment. Is he a backseat driver by any chance? Passenger seat driver? No, he's good. He just sits there and lets me drop. That's good. Um Anyway, um, so how many relationships with guys have you been in? One. And that's the one. That's only one. How many flings have you had that? [00:10:30] That that I'm not looking at? Um um good question. I would say 55. Yeah. Would you like to give an example of how your experience of of one or a couple such as that's up to you for what you want to give? Um, yeah. Well, the first person basically that I ever hooked up with was kind [00:11:00] of more like accident. Um, and sort of like, Oh, you want to come and hang out? So you come and hang out at my house, and then he's like, I can't go home because my parents yada yada yada. He was old enough. Thank you. Um and so he ended up sleeping the night and things happen um and that was kind of like the first one, which was kind of awkward in that. And then, yeah, the rest have been basically meeting off like the likes of NZD and that type of thing. [00:11:30] And they were just general hook ups. I guess the first one was probably like there was hints. Probably wasn't it when you not first one. The person you just mentioned that Yeah, I gather he was probably giving out hunts the whole time, I. I wouldn't I wouldn't read or didn't know how to read into it. Should I say so? Yeah. It was kind of like, um yeah. So it's not surprising, but unexpected on my heart. But so [00:12:00] how do you meet other people in the community? Um, Well, you don't really? Well, I don't, Um I've tried to now with this whole gay OK thing, um, try to get involved with, I guess the the the support side of things and meet other people. Similar people. Um, I was unaware there is another gay group called, I think Yeah, I don't know anything about this group called Q. No, I think I think basically the gist of visit that no one knew about it. Um, from [00:12:30] what I learned was that basically a Lady Girl woman had moved up from down South and started it. And I think it sort of spread out amongst the lesbian community but didn't really involve the gay community so much. Not that they didn't want to, but more because they didn't know any gay guys in Hawke's Bay. It was hard to do it. And I it's It's been around for a year and a half, but I only became aware of it a week ago. So otherwise you're a typical like grinder and that sort of stuff. But your general thing is that turned sexual within about five messages. So that's why [00:13:00] you have to, like, set it up to be very direct. I'm not here for fun. I love that one because you set it up as I am partnered looking to chat, and then you get the email going. Oh, would you like to have bare back with me? No. Are you sure your partner can come too? No. And then it still carries on. So there's a few of them out there special people. That's why I like to press the block button? Yeah. Yeah, you do Get to the block button. You do, but you kind of feel feel obliged to give some people [00:13:30] a chance. Not so much that person, but some people give you a chance and when they can go Oh, yeah, we're all kind of guys, and you get a bit weird sometimes, but they tend to continually go back to it, and you block them. So have you been in a gay bar before? Um, only the one down in Wellington with the IV so And didn't last very long. Have you ever thought about going to other places to, um yeah, but if we were in the right place at the right time for us, we're not. I mean, I'm not a very town orientated [00:14:00] person at all, anyway, um, and but if we were in town with some mates and that was a place to head to, like, go on holiday. And so it happens to be a gay bar. They're like, pretty much we kind of make an effort when we're down in Wellington to go out and do bits and pieces, um, and say if we got a chance to or if there was actually something happening and we were in that mood, then yeah, we'd go along. But it's not. Not really town people. Yeah, like has the secret one. Hamilton has the one that only have opens [00:14:30] three nights a week. And, um, Auckland has five. The advantages of being in a big city, but yeah, what is your definition of virginity? Um, would be your first sexual encounter. Do you think there's more to it than just a physical thing? No, no, no. I. I don't believe virginity is a emotional thing. It is just a purely physical sort of standard that you put on things. Uh, have you ever received or [00:15:00] experienced any abuse or abusive behaviour because of your sexuality? No. Yeah. It would be quite hard for you to be abused. In fact, I'm slightly scared right now. No, I'm kidding. Um, yeah, basically, I'm lucky in so far as that if I walked down the street, no one would know. And if I walked down the street and someone did know they're usually not a large enough group or they're brave enough to say anything, it would [00:15:30] be the easiest way to put it. So what's it like being gay and living in Hawke's Bay? Um, I guess Somewhat isolated. Um, because although there are kind of almost like a secret set of gay groups that only just finding out about, um, there's not really a lot. I don't think there's a lot of us. So, you know, unless you're, um, clearly gay and someone's going to feel comfortable talking to you, you kind of don't realise that there [00:16:00] are other people in the gay community in Hawke's Bay. Have you ever felt like you wanted to move somewhere where it's more gay populated, but not like overly populated? Um, yes and no Wellington, um, we have talked about, um, not mainly not because of the gay thing, but it would be a bonus of living there. Um, but yeah, never for the sole purpose of being around more gay people. No. OK, well, thank you for the interview. That's right.

IRN: 669
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_jeremy.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004035
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089329
TITLE: Jeremy - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Hawkes Bay; Ivy Bar and Cabaret; Napier; Q12 (series); Wellington; bullying; coming out; dance; family; friends; gay; homophobia; internet; internet dating; parents; public display of affection (PDA); regions; relationships; religion; school; sex; singing; theatre; venues; video games; youth
DATE: 17 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Napier, Napier, Hawkes Bay
CONTEXT: In this podcast Jeremy talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? Good. Thank you. How are you? Um, OK, Jeremy, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Um, 24 years old Enjoyed doing theatre, work, dancing, singing, acting all that stuff in the in a Oh, yeah, that's good. I guess we're in the same boat, then? Yeah, definitely. Um, yeah. Other than that work at a bookstore. Um, enjoy video games. Stereotypical guy, Homo [00:00:30] kind of thing. Have you lived in Napier all your life? Born and raised, Born and raised and produced. Um, what's your likes and hobbies? Apart from theatre and video games, Video games? Um, other than that reading, hanging out with friends. TV, that one. That one. The one in front of you boyfriend? Um, just a little brackets. Little bricks. So, um, what is your sex? [00:01:00] I'm gay. That's your sexuality. Sexuality and then gender identity will be male. And then sexuality will be gay. That so, what is your culture? I identity white. Yeah. And what? What? How do you present yourself and express yourself? I should say, um, feminine masculine camp in between straight [00:01:30] acting lunch bear cub Kind of in between. Like I'm not very. Yeah, I'm I'm not the most straightest acting guy, but I'm not the flimsy kind of guy. Yeah, you're not like the and you're not the like the Oh, goodness gracious me. OK, um, So [00:02:00] when did you realise about 13 was realised? To you? Is there, um, was there a situation where you just noticed a boy across the class and you thought he was hot or something like that? Um, no, actually, I was in Wellington with my mum, and, um, that's a good start. Oh, yeah. I don't know why this story keeps coming from my head, but, Yeah, we're walking down Wellington Street, so we must have walked past, like, a strip club or something like that. And, um, they had this out. Oh, no. [00:02:30] There's a picture of this guy on there who wasn't wearing a shirt. And I remember thinking, Oh, that guy's kind of cute. And that's the first clip of the moment that I had. I thought it was going to be like a female strip club, and you see a female and it scared you to being gay. No, no. Like I said, nothing exciting. Oh, no, that's quite exciting. he's not a poster of a half naked guy. And yeah, So, um, did you ever deny it? [00:03:00] No. Um, of course I didn't tell anyone, but you kept it a secret for a while. Yeah, I kept a secret for a while, but I never felt like it was wrong or anything. So did you, um, did your feelings ever, ever expand to liking? Actually, someone like feelings in class or something like that. Um, kind of, um I had a bit of a hard time with it during high school. Um, there was one of those [00:03:30] Everyone knew, but because I hadn't said it, everyone just made fun of me for it kind of thing. And so, yeah, just having drilled into you every day, being bullied for it. You kind of just not like anyone. And don't think about that way. Yeah, but, um, yeah, once I moved from one school to another school, I started picking more things up. Yeah, a different new environment, new people, new clean kind of thing. Yeah. New home. Yeah. Yeah. So, um So when did you come out? [00:04:00] Um Are you? Yeah, I'm out. I came out when I was about 15. Um, it was along the process of me changing schools because, um, I met this girl who went to high school, and, um, yeah, she convinced me to change schools, Go from a to B. Um, when I got to the next high school, though, I was kind of like, Oh, you know, this is a clean. So I just tell everyone said it to her, and they were just like, Oh, yeah, yeah. We kind of already know the person already told us. [00:04:30] So then it was just kind of out and open, and I just never really had it again. So what was the reaction? So it was like, everybody knew so they didn't have a problem with it or something. Um, yeah. Everyone at that school. Like I said, they had, like, a week or so to grasp it and get used to it. So no problem. No. Didn't have any problems after that. No. Yeah. What about your parents? Um, they were good. They didn't exactly like it, but they didn't throw me out at home or anything like that, So yeah, we're still talking [00:05:00] these days. So why are they How do they feel about it now. Um, my mother is more, um, if we don't talk about it doesn't exist. My father is He's generally a very quiet person. That's hard to talk to, anyway, So, yeah. So he's just He hasn't changed. Mom just doesn't talk about it. Yeah, yeah, but still they supporters, as they can be. Have you introduced them to your partner? Yeah. [00:05:30] Yeah, they're all happy. No, they like this one. They haven't liked my partners in the past. That's a good start. So, um, have you ever attended a LGBTI Q group? Um, not really. Um no, nothing. Just like a youth group or anything like that. No, no, no. No club or anything? No. Have you ever been to a gay bar? That's an interesting question. Um, I have been [00:06:00] to one in my life that this one took me to, um, walk. Yeah, walk in. And everyone just kind of went and just looked at us, and I was like, All right, back against the wall, slowly. Move out. Who was that? That was in Wellington. What was what was the Something like that? Yeah. Um, So you had a support system, didn't you? I Sorry. Support your friends? Um, having said that. Yeah. At that time, most of them were girls. So stereotypical kind of fag [00:06:30] head kind of things. Oh, my God. We could go shopping and, like, do this and that. And, like, I my God, you could take me clothes shopping, even though I'm horrible with fashion. Yeah, you say yes or no? That's practically all you have to say. It's like Sure that bra looks like it fits. Go on, burn it. Well, I wasn't going that far. Oh, dear. So, um, which high school did you went to again? Um, I started off [00:07:00] at ST John's, but then transferred over to. So what was Saint John's like with your sexuality? It was, um Well, it's basically, like a hard Christian school. So, um, the teachers didn't like it because of the whole Christian thing. And the student didn't like it because the 15 year old boys going testosterone girls. Yay. Kind of thing. They don't sound like at that age, I think like, boy, [00:07:30] I have a foot. No, those are three year olds. I getting them confused. Um, any who? You have a show, anyway? Um, where was I? So it's quite clear to me you're in a relationship right now. So, um, have you been in other relationships [00:08:00] before? I've had a couple of past relationships. Yeah. How about flings a few of my nights stands? Yes, I've had my first year. A fair share. How many? Um oh, honestly, I've lost count. Yeah. How many relationships have you been in? Um, serious ones. I'd probably say about three. Including this one, including this one. Could you give a good example of the other two? Um, one was [00:08:30] horrible. Um, happened? He's the stereotypical manipulator. Try to stop me from seeing my friends. Almost stop me from seeing my parents. Want to hang out with me all day, Every day. That kind of thing Practically wanted to own you. Yeah, more or less. Yeah. Um, he just never took no as an answer, then, um, yeah, because I was still at high school at this stage. I didn't quite realise that, you know, you can actually get out of things and say no and stuff like that. Yeah. How was he? He was Ah, [00:09:00] I think I was about 18. And he was about 23 24. So he was a little bit older than me. Yeah. So, um, don't break anything. Um, how about the other one, that he turned out to be one of those. Oh, I'm now straight. God has saved me. So I'm now getting engaged to a girl. So I was just like, OK, you can run along and do your thing. Then is he still pretending [00:09:30] to be straight as far as I'm aware, but yeah, I haven't really talked to seen him since we spent most time outside a hospital against abortion, anti abortion protest and stuff like that. Oh, dear. He's one of those God has found me. I shall become a Bible basher. Pretty much. Pretty much. Yeah. So, um, how do you meet other people in the community? Um, internet is a good way, as long as you're [00:10:00] careful. Um, this one and I kind of just stumbled upon each other. Really? Didn't we through well through one of your friends? Yeah, one of my friends. So I prefer to meet guys through that way if I'm able to, but, um, yeah, it's mainly internet and just stumbling across them through friends, as you do. Um, What type of internet do you use? Um, not asking if we help the company. Like how, um, how do you look [00:10:30] for people through Internet, um, Google How to find gay people, New Zealand, gay guys or Hawke's Bay gay guys. And then it brings you to, you know, chat rooms and stuff like that with other guys like that around you. So I start off with that and then, you know, technology start growing, and then you get your cell phones and Androids and stuff like that grinder. That's exactly that. Yeah, as you do. So, um, what is your definition [00:11:00] in virginity? I'm not a virgin. If that's what you're asking. Is that you? Meaning No, no. What's your personal definition of virginity Like, What is your opinion of virginity? Um, try it before you buy it. Try it before you buy it. That's a new way of looking at it. Yeah, it's It's not really a measuring thing [00:11:30] these days anymore. You might have to define that question for him. Do you want to define it? OK, um, virginity. You know how people believe that virginity is the first time you have sex or something like that. Yeah. What is your personal opinion of that? Do you have a different definition to that, or is it your, um, or is that the same opinion for the first time? You do it as [00:12:00] opposed to the rest of the time you do it. No. Like, it could be an emotional thing that a virginity could be more of an emotional thing. It could be the first time you fall in love or something. It's a strange one. In that case, what do you think That? Um, yeah, yeah, it's a stereotypical thing that you think you know, the first time you do what? It's supposed to be special. It's supposed to be perfect and stuff like that, but it never is. It's always awkward. You never know what you're doing. So that's so it's the first time you physically [00:12:30] do something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, have you ever received or experienced any abuse or abusive behaviour because of your sex, your sexuality, your gender identity, or your culture? Um, bullying at high school. Mainly, it was mainly bullying, Um, a little bit of information from one of my exes, but I'm over that but, um yeah, bullying is the main one. Yeah. What actually happened? Um, [00:13:00] just going to school and then hearing every day. If you little homo, was it mainly verbal? Mainly verbal. There was a couple of punches in the stomach or things like that. But there was never any full on gay bashing, but I think that's just general high school thing. Yeah, I think it's just general. High school. Yeah. So what has it been like for you living in Napier in 2012? Being gay, I think it's fantastic. Yeah. Fantastic. Fantastic. [00:13:30] Um, yeah. Um, as long as you're happy with it, everyone else tends to be as well. That's the way I've been living. So that's worked for me so far. How do you think Napier is, like with, um, with gay people? Um, it's not the worst place, but it could be better. Um, not that we would do it anyway, but it's just nice to have the option to be able to walk down like, or something like that and be able to hold his [00:14:00] hand or something like that. Like I said, not saying that we would or anything like that. But the option would be nice. Oh, yeah. Thank you for the interview. That's all right.

IRN: 668
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_georgie.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004034
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089328
TITLE: Georgie - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Club Q (Palmerston North); Manawatu Lesbian and Gay Rights Association (MALGRA); Manawatū; Palmerston North; Q12 (series); Waikato; animals; coming out; depression; discrimination; family; feminism; friends; homophobia; lesbian; mental health; monogamy; nzdating. com; parents; pets; relationships; religion; school prom; sex; single sex schools; youth
DATE: 11 October 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Manawatū, Manawatu, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Georgie talks about being young and lesbian in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm good. How are you? Fantastic. What's your name? Georgie. Georgie. Like Georgie Pie? Yes, Like Georgie pie. I was very sad when Georgie Pie closed down. So have you heard the Heard the new movement to get Georgie pie up and running? No, I thought McDonald's bought it out. Yeah, McDonald's had brought it out, but there's someone going around the country like getting, um, signatures on this. Just like taking time off from work. Just going cross singing, having a petition, having, like, try to get, like, 5000 [00:00:30] signatures, which is going quite well. Yeah. I've always wanted one of those T shirts that has bring back Georgie Pie on it. Yeah, good times. Good times. I remember when I was little. I bought the pies better than KFC pies. KFC has pies. They had for a little bit. I did not know that. Yeah, maybe I'm too young. It taste No, no, no. It was like last year and earlier this year it tasted like potato and gravy pie sounds. Yuck. [00:01:00] It was Yuck. OK, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Um, I'm 21. I'm from I'm studying vet at Palmerston North in my second year, um, from the Waikato born and raised in New Zealand. Got two older brothers. Um, yeah, Pretty much basic information. I have two cats, Two cats? Yeah, I'm the cat lady. What's her name? Um, Rafael and Quinn. They [00:01:30] their brothers? Oh, they're pretty sweet. Yeah, pretty good. That's about Yeah. Any other information? And, um, what is your sexuality? I'm gay. You're gay or whatever you want to call it. What is your What is your gender identity? Female. Good. You know what they both are? Some people don't, um what is your culture Identity? [00:02:00] I don't really Yeah. New Zealand. I don't really, you know, have a massive cultural care to be honest. Yeah, I know that I have Dutch ancestry and that sort of thing, and that's cool. But otherwise yeah, just New Zealander. And how do you express yourself in a masculine, feminine or any other way? Um, kind of both. Like I am more of a feminine gay chick. I would think, you know, But, [00:02:30] um, I definitely do have sort of masculine tendencies as well that I can't sort of help. It's just me. You know, sometimes I try to be more feminine because I know that that's what most other girls want. You know, girls want you. Girls usually want a girl, a girl they don't really want, You know, some big Butch Dykes. And I think I feel more comfortable when I feel prettier. But at the same time, I have a big conflict there because, you know, sometimes I just like to be, like, real Dodd and like, work out and get, like, big muscles and stuff and [00:03:00] yeah, yeah, and like a dude and just like I that's quite me. Like, if I was just, you know, to be Yeah, you just, like, walk through random doors and just change your complete personality. I'm really I can Yeah, I'm really both like I. I don't know if it's necessarily a conflict. Like sometimes I just prefer to be girly, and other times I prefer to It's kind of like the whole, um I just like that. It's like the angel and the devil on each shoulder. Like, be be feminine. Yeah, basically, yeah, I've always I've always wanted to keep my feminine side, [00:03:30] but at the same time, like I felt like I was flying under the radar a little bit. Like nobody knew I was gay, even though I was pretty much blurting it from the rooftops because I had to actually tell people and shake them and be like, Come on. Otherwise I'd never meet any other gay people. Are you a bit of a feminist? No, No, no, no, not at all. You, you you. Yeah, Yeah, I'm just me. I don't really You know, I believe in equal rights for everyone. You know, I don't I think feminism maybe [00:04:00] has taken it a bit far sometimes. You know, like you're going a bit overboard. Like expecting more rights. Almost sometimes. I don't know. It's yeah. No, not a huge feminist. So, um, when did you realise I actually know the exact moment? It was a bit of a light bulb moment. Well, I'd been I was 15. Um, actually, in retrospect now, looking back throughout my childhood [00:04:30] and things I can sort of see, you know, like in hindsight, you're like, Oh, yeah, Maybe that was a bit of a sign, you know, making out with your friend when you were 10, but a genuine but at the time. You know, she just didn't know how to kiss. And she just got a boyfriend. So I was just like, I'll show you how? Because I've kissed before. So there you go. But yeah. No, I was, um I had this friend I probably shouldn't name her. Um, at high school, I went to a Catholic high school. All girls, um, and yeah. And, um, yeah, we were, like, just became best [00:05:00] friends. And it was really, really intense. And it was really rapid. And I realised that I had sort of stronger feelings for her. And we used to just be really, really cuddly. And we'd like, you know, always hug and cuddle and stuff, and then it sort of just escalated like that. I never put moves on or anything. I always she always instigated everything. So because I was too scared, you don't want to freak her out. And I didn't know what was going on, either. And then one night I went there, um, and we had a sleepover, and we [00:05:30] were just hugging. And then things sort of just like one thing, you know? Yeah, like Nick. She was on top of me you know, And it was just like, but we were just hugging, you know, And it was just like, and then things started getting a bit more heated. And Ra Ra ra And then after that, I was just like, Oh, my God, you know what's happened? But, um actually, people found out about it and it got out. And she told everyone that I had attacked her in her sleep and that I was like, some crazy lesbian rapist, and that got out around the whole school and, yeah, so I was, like, 15 and pretty, [00:06:00] pretty gutted. And even though she was on top of you Oh, yeah, she I never did any of it. You know, Like, I let her instigate everything because I was way too scared and because I was I was in love, like, madly in love like teenage like insane. And that went on, uh, well, she actually ended up apologising. But then, um, I thought she apologised. She'd come back, but she didn't. And then yeah, kind of spiralled into a depression for two years, [00:06:30] and then yeah, that's that's my story. So did you ever have, like, a denial period denial period. No, I, I don't really think so. Like I had the I had the light bulb moment. I was sitting on the bus one day. This was like probably like a month or two when we were still, you know, we were just friends Still, but things were sort of getting a bit intimate. And I sort of thought because I had boyfriends in the past and I was like, Huh? Like I'm sitting. I don't mean to be dodgy, but I was sitting there thinking, [00:07:00] Yeah, you know, I was like, I am so, you know, into that right now. And then I was just like, I've never you know, whenever I had my boyfriends and stuff, even when we were doing, like, intimate things, I never felt this rush, you know, this amazing, like feeling. And then I was just like, Oh, shit, I'm so gay. I was just like, Oh, no, I was just like, Ah, yeah, but then it wasn't really a big deal. I I was I think it wasn't really denial. I was just more. I felt like no one understood. Even [00:07:30] my best friends, like I could talk to them about it and I'd act OK, but they'd say, I don't even know if I was acting. I think they were being real that they were OK with it. But I would always feel like they were judging me. Even my parents, like I like they accepted it when I I told them I was like, Yeah, I think I'm going there like, yeah, so they sort of already knew. But, um, no, I wouldn't call it. I think I was just more I once I realised that I just wanted to reach out like I. I needed other people around me who understood. But I didn't do that for two years because [00:08:00] I was too busy being depressed. You didn't, um I expected a good positive reaction from people when you No, no, no, I didn't I didn't expect it. No, people were more positive than I did expect. And then after that two year period when I I met someone on some dating site and we started dating and I took her to the ball to the ball in Hamilton, and I had the jaws dropped. Yeah, I actually went up to my dean and asked [00:08:30] her I was just like, Look, is it OK if I take my girlfriend? And she was just like, as long as you don't make it completely obvious when you're there and I'm like, it's not like we're gonna start fucking on the dance a lot. Yeah, but no. So, yeah, I took her to the boss. That was quite good. That's good. So you never really had a closet to come out of. Really? Not really. Because it got outed for me, you know, like everyone found out. And then I you know, it was it was hard. It was really hard. And but I [00:09:00] I was so overwhelmed by the emotion of being madly in love that I didn't care what people were thinking about me. I was All I could think about was how I was going to get back. It was like it was almost an obsession. And then, yeah, it spiralled down. It was it was quite bad. Yeah, it's genetic. It it's quite funny because there is no closet for you. A closet for you is like a doorway to Narnia for you. Yeah, I don't know. I just Yeah, I sort of just got out, you know, it [00:09:30] happened, and I That was the least of my worries. At the time, I wasn't worried about the fact that it was a girl. I was more just horrified by the fact that I'd lost her. I was I was so gutted. Yeah, it was crazy. You had a lot of support. A big bit of a support system for your sexuality. Hm. Not really at the time. Like it's not like there was any queer youth groups at my Catholic school, you know, like, none of my friends were gay, but your parents were accepting. [00:10:00] Yeah, but I was I. I was sceptical of that. You know, I never felt I never like, they could say that they're accepting, and same with my friends. But I never believed them. And even now, sometimes I think that my parents might think it's just a phase, and then I'll come out of it. But they'll they'll realise eventually, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, you've had relationships before. Yeah. Yeah, Like, tell us about some. I've I've actually skipped from relationship to relationship. And you went from a a flinging [00:10:30] stage. I Yeah, I just you right now I want to stay single for a very long time because I've had my heart broken pretty brutally recently in year 13, I mean online, and we dated for six months, and then she broke up with me on New Year's, which was really brutal. Quite strange. Yeah, I was really gutted and it was really out of the blue. I didn't expect it, but our relationship was great, and I didn't really see what the problem was, but I think I settled a bit because she was the first [00:11:00] gay person I met. So I was just like like, I didn't find it that attractive, to be honest. And, you know, it was like I just her because I wanted to experience what it was like to have a relationship with a girl. And then I came down to Messy to do it and had had a fling with an R. A Oh, yeah, yeah. Had a random fling with an R A which was very silly, but yeah, it was fun. And then I got into a 18 month big long relationship with, um this girl I met. Someone [00:11:30] introduced me to her. It wasn't the healthiest relationship like we had lots of good times and stuff, but she was quite flirtatious with other people. And I'm very into fidelity and monogamy and stuff. And she never really made me feel that secure. And so we broke up. Well, she left. She left and she said she needed space. Then I realised it wasn't good for me, so I didn't want to get back into the relationship. She came back a month later. I was like, OK, let's get back together. And I was like, No. So in the end, I actually ended up breaking her [00:12:00] heart. Yeah, And then I was only single for, like, two months. And then I met at a party here, and I we clicked. And it was like to me, it felt like it still does. It felt like it was it. Like, honestly, she made me feel like it was gonna last forever. Like she moved all this stuff in pretty much and like, we just I can't even, like, describe the connection. Really, But, um yeah, and then just out of the blue, like on my actually on my birthday [00:12:30] on my 21st birthday, she just said that Well, actually, two days before she told me she loved me. And then on that day, she was like, Look, I'm just not ready for it. I don't want to be in a relationship anymore. And she left. And I haven't seen her since. And that was that. So, Yes, I'm a very lonely, heartbroken person at the moment. But I'm determined to stay single for a long, long time because I've never been single as an adult for longer than a month. I need to learn how to do it without feeling lonely. How [00:13:00] long ago was that relationship? Like four weeks? Um, so I'm not gonna be enough now. Four weeks is a month, isn't it? August August The fifth was my birthday. So I guess it is longer. It's just over a month. Yeah. So, um, how do you meet other people in the LGBTI Q community? Uh, NZD and coming to Q. Coming, coming International International National Way of meeting. People like, pretty [00:13:30] much like I got to hook up with a freaking crazy hot chick. On Saturday night, I met off NZD. I was just here dancing with my cousin, and then she just turned up and was ruin to me, but I didn't. She wanted to go home, but I just couldn't do it. Just not really, you know, like, I thought I could be all bad ass and promiscuous, but it's just not me. Yeah. So, um, what is your definition of virginity? So my definition of virginity or sex? Your personal virginity, [00:14:00] Your personal definition. Virginity? Um, I don't know. Like you think. I think it's a quite a. It's not just a physical thing. Like, I think it is a mental thing as well. You know, like, if you're with someone like you know, how people can say, Oh, lesbians can't lose their virginity, you know, because they're not They can't have, you know, penetration with a Penis like I don't necessarily. It's not even necessarily about penetration. There's people out there who probably can never [00:14:30] have penetration because they, you know, sexual organs aren't able to do so. You know, like there's diseases out there that you can't. So does that mean those people are never going to get to have sex? No. You know, it's if you're with someone and you mentally and physically, you know, inside feel like you are having sex then, and they do as well. Then you are having sex. In my opinion, I think it's Yeah, it's not just dick and vagina, you know, it's not that basic. [00:15:00] Um, have you ever been, uh, have you ever experienced abuse or abusive behaviours because of your sexuality or gender identity? Yes, actually, um well, I've just been discriminated against a few times. Um, like once I was going to the movies in Wellington with my girlfriend and we were holding hands and walking into the movies, and this woman approached us. I think she was a security guard or something. And she was like, Oh, you're not allowed in here if you're gonna be making out and stuff, you know? And [00:15:30] we were like, what? And they were like, Oh, you know, we can't We've got a standard. We've got standards to keep here. You know, we can't have you guys coming in here and making out like these other girls were the other day. And I was just like I was so angry. I was like, Does she walk up to every straight couple who walks up there, You know, and go. Oh, you guys can't make out, You know, like it. It just It really, really aggravated me. Yeah, it's quite strange. And just getting like, I think gay guys get harassed in a different way. They get, you know, called pussies and weak and pathetic and disgusting girls. We get sexually [00:16:00] objectified. You know, I get, you know, guys who are just like, yeah, you know, let's have a three way, you know, And just like me and my girlfriend kissed in the car once and this guy, too, and went past, and he was like, uh, like, out the window to us, you know, with his thing is making sexually suggestible. You know, it's just Yeah, I think it's a different kind of abuse. Guys get beaten up, we get like, yeah, and objectified like it. It makes you feel, like, kind of disgusting. No, no, no. Keep that way. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Well, thank you for the interview. That's [00:16:30] right. Thank you.

IRN: 667
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_steve.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004033
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089327
TITLE: Steve - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Christchurch; Civil Union Act (2004); Club Q (Palmerston North); Invercargill; Manawatu Lesbian and Gay Rights Association (MALGRA); Manawatū; Palmerston North; Q12 (series); bullying; church; civil unions; coming out; counselling; family; friends; gay; homophobia; homosexual law reform; marriage equality; psychology; relationships; religion; school; sci-fi; sex; venues; violence; youth
DATE: 11 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Manawatū, Manawatu, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Steve talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm OK. How are you? Fantastic. How are you, Steve? Steve, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Um OK, Well, until recently, I was a student of psychology, and, uh, I'm working towards becoming a family and marriage counsellor. What else do you do? Hobbies likes interests, music interests, Fairly [00:00:30] eclectic music tastes. Um this is pretty nerdy of me, but I've got to admit, I'm a bit of a sci-fi fan. Oh, Firefly Sci-fi. Yeah. Firefly, Star Trek. Star Wars? Yeah, most of those things. Stargate. Yeah. Stargate. Have you actually seen Stargate Universe? Yes, I have. I've seen the first two seasons of it. I think there's only two seasons. I think they cancel it. Yeah, well, [00:01:00] yeah. And they left it on the cliffhanger, just in case I wanted to bring it back. Yeah, Yeah. I didn't like any of the other stargates because it was about two nineties and that the set time. Yeah, well, most of Star Trek was Irene as well. Yeah, I prefer my sci-fi of actually good graphics. No. True. Yeah. So, um, what is your sex? I'm a male. What is your gender identity. I'm gay. That's your sexuality. [00:01:30] I Well, I'm I'm a male, So sexuality is gay. Um, your cultural identity. And what is your expression? How do you express yourself? I'm a masculine. Well, I like to think I'm masculine. Some people say I have a few eff feminine qualities, but I don't really see them. But you have your moments, the feminine moments where you just can't help yourself. [00:02:00] Exactly. Yeah. So, um, when did you realise? Well, that's a loaded question. I mean, I guess on a level I've always known that I was gay. I mean, I've never been one of the boys sort of thing, so But if you're asking, when do they come out? Um, no, not yet. When? When was that light bulb moment where you just think Oh, my God. I just realised [00:02:30] that I have the same. I have a I have an attraction to the same gender. Yeah, coming out that that would have been about 17 17 if it's real. Yeah, I Well, at, uh, when I was 16, I was sort of Oh, maybe I'm by I mean the But then obvious. I think everybody goes through that. I mean, it's the social standards trying to make you being by is more socially acceptable than [00:03:00] being gay. So I was trying to be more stay within the socially acceptable, uh, range. But then I realised this is not me. I really have no attraction to women aside from friendships, so obviously I'm gay. So, yeah. Have you did you went through a denial period about she sexuality? Well, I'm also a Christian, so yes, quite a long period of it wasn't so much a denial period, [00:03:30] but sort of a period of trying to integrate my sexuality with my religion and things like that. Did you not accept your sexuality for a bit? For a while? I did fight it. I did try to, uh, date women, but, uh, there was this one disastrous attempt, but, um, I'm sure you'll One of your questions in the future will come on to that one. but yeah, there was a denial period. What happened? [00:04:00] Um, there was this girl in my class, and I just asked her out on the date. And then when it came to meet her up, I just This is really bad of me. I stood up. So, um, I didn't turn up. And the next day in class, she confronted me, and I was such a goody two shoes that everybody else said, No, no, that's not in Steven's character. There must have been some. He [00:04:30] must have been held up or something. So, um, there's always something else or something like that. Some sort of excuse. Yeah, but what did you end up telling her? In the end? Uh, she was the fourth person I came out to. It was the first person that yeah, she came out to. She she was another girl in my class. And frankly, I wish I hadn't come out to her because she was a blabber mouth within [00:05:00] three days of telling her the entire school knew. So I stopped being Steve and became the gay kid. Every school had to have one, so we knew. So how about so that kind of affected you trying to date that girl? The girl that you told? Well, no, no, no, no. As I said, I came out to get this. The dating incident was a few months before I came [00:05:30] out, so yeah, so a few months before it is that, um when did she actually confronted you? The next day. She confronted me the next day and I made some some stupid excuse saying, Oh, I said we would meet here. Not there. So was she a bit a little bit hormone going? Her brother wasn't too happy either, did she? Did he did What? What was this? Straight people, Not straight. People [00:06:00] are all straight people, some over protecting brother. Yeah, I know. He actually threatened me with some fairly severe physical violence. He never carried through with it, but, um, yeah, it was a bit scary at that time. Did he? Ever after he came out, did he nearby abuse you because of it? Well, I believe that, um, since the homosexual law reform the [00:06:30] in New Zealand most somewhat the I don't think there was. The amount of negativity towards gay people has gone down. It hasn't completely diminished because you still hear stories in the news about gay bashing and things like that. So, at these days, I think being gay is more of a curiosity than dead wrong thing. I mean, because when I came out and became the [00:07:00] gay kid, I mean everybody in the school. I mean, everybody was coming up to me and asking me questions about it. I mean, how do you know you like guys? And if it was a guy, I would say, Well, how do you know You like girls? And it's brilliant. Um, yeah. So, um, I'm until the curiosity of being gay goes away, which probably won't be for a hell of a long time. It will still be a bit of [00:07:30] an oddity in schools and things like that. Um, when did you come out to your parents? Uh, have you come out? I've come out to my parents, although my mother is still in denial, and my father is purposely absent minded about it. Although my father has had a stroke, so I think we can forgive him for that. We we get together every now and again, and we like to play quiz games. So, [00:08:00] um, every time a question comes up concerning, uh, would you go? What sort of woman you would date or something like that? My mother would always switch it around when it It's my turn. So I don't think he's forgotten about it. I think he's just pushing it to the back of his mind. Have you ever introduced him into, like, a boyfriend or anything like that? Um, unfortunately, I haven't had any boyfriends. I've had hook ups. But [00:08:30] you had more things then. Yeah, I'm a very introspective individual. So it's quite difficult for me to get a boyfriend. Are you slightly, um, a a romantic? In a way, I'm not familiar with that term. It's like a asexuals that you don't like having sex. But however, that doesn't mean that you date a certain gender. You just don't have sex. It's kind [00:09:00] of like the same thing. But in a relationship term, Well, as I said, I've never actually had a relationship. So I've never had the opportunity to be romantic. I think if I had the opportunity, I could be romantic. I think a romantic meaning that you don't want to be in a relationship. Oh, no, I think I would like a relationship. I mean, it's just that being very introspective, uh, it's hard for me to find. I mean, coming up to clubs is not really my sort of thing, because I don't drink that much [00:09:30] either. Um, and most of the people online are looking for one thing, and I don't need to tell you what that is. I think it's a general international code for Yeah. Yeah. So? So, with these things, how many things have you had? Is 15, 16, 15, 16. Yeah, well, but since I've been 17, So it's been a while. Have you actually lived in palmy [00:10:00] all your life or No, I I've lived in Invercargill, Christchurch. I moved out of Christchurch about two years before. There's been a lucky escape. So where did most of these things happen? Like most of them up here. Well, a couple down in Christchurch, but most of them up here in the area. Yeah. So forgot where I was. Um So how [00:10:30] do you meet people in the LGBTI Q community? I haven't really met that many. I mean, I sometimes come up to the club Q, which is one of the first gay clubs in New Zealand. But a little plug there, Uh, but yeah, but usually I don't really get that much, uh, things because, as I said, I'm usually a [00:11:00] wallflower. Very introspective. I find it hard to get out on the dance floor and things like that. I find it quite interesting here because we're we're at at the moment. And, uh, look what I could describe it as something you would expect if something like in the eighties where all those underground gay clubs would actually happen. Yeah, exactly. One of the things I commonly see is every Yeah, sometimes when I come up here, I feel like I've gone back to the 19 fifties. [00:11:30] There's like, it's like, prelaw form type club. In a way. Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is quite interesting. But I know they are very protective of the club, aren't they? Well, yes, um the the gay, the gay community in in Palmerston North. There's very few gay clubs. I think I think there's only two and the other one is pretty grungy. Really? Oh, dear. Yeah. [00:12:00] So, um yeah, I think you need to be a member to actually come or know a member or something like that. Yes, well, I was the member. I'm gonna actually have to renew my membership soon. But as I said, I don't really come up that often, so yeah, it's just maybe it's like the principle of the thing. Yeah. It reminds me of an old TV show where you have to be. Um, it's called Queer Folk, where you had to be a member of the biggest gay club and in the area you go. Yeah. Yeah. [00:12:30] Um, what is your definition of virginity? Well, that's an interesting question. I mean, studying psychology I'm open to meant a wide range of ideas. But personally, I would say my idea of virginity is a sort of a This is really going to sound bad at penetration. So, um, [00:13:00] a blow job? It's sort of, but not really so I really believe it has to be a penetration for it to be considered full on sex. Oops. Um, when saying psychology, do they ever go for it? Go through like, um, how people feel about virginity or anything like that. Uh, not [00:13:30] that I know of, but I haven't completed my degree yet. So so do you think there's more to virginity than just six? Yes, I do. Because, um, in some, uh, a not African, some, uh, isolated tribes in New Guinea. I think it is something like that. The the male is not considered grown up until they have, uh, [00:14:00] ivied male seamen from an older member of the tribe. But they are not considered gay because later on in life, they marry, and they have Children of their own. So, sexuality, uh, and virginity is a whole. It depends where you are in the world, and it's all to do with your own sort of ideas. I. I have never actually heard that before. Well, yeah, it is. Yeah. I was surprised when I heard it myself. [00:14:30] So So, um, you've had a bit of abuse because of your six year old here, haven't you? Not really, No. I mean, uh, I once was rejected for getting into a flat because of my sexuality, but, uh, the the head flat mate said that it was just she didn't want to make the other flatmates uncomfortable, and some of them [00:15:00] did have a problem with it. And I can understand that. I mean, I didn't want to make anyone else uncomfortable either. And as I said, I believe since the homosexual law reform in what was it 1982 1986. Fine. Um, since the homosexual law reform, I do believe things have been getting gradually, better for us. Although the I I don't believe we should have done the Civil Union bill. I mean, [00:15:30] although I guess it is a good stepping stone. I mean, you can't I immediately move from being illegal to just being legal. Then suddenly gay marriage. I think maybe the stepping stone of civil Union is a good idea. Well, thank you for that interview. You're welcome.

IRN: 666
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_matt.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004032
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089326
TITLE: Matt - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Club Q (Palmerston North); Lady Gaga; Manawatu Lesbian and Gay Rights Association (MALGRA); Manawatū; Palmerston North; Q12 (series); anime; arts; camp; facebook. com; family; fire spinning; friends; gay; homophobia; music; nzdating. com; relationships; school; support; youth
DATE: 12 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Manawatū, Manawatu, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Matt talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm good. That's good. Who are you? I'm Matt. OK, Matt, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Ok, um I like anime. I a fire spinner. Um, so I like to play with the fire. It's quite cool. Um, I play games on, like PlayStation, Xbox and stuff being a fire spinner. Does that make you a pyromaniac? Yes, indeed. Fire is fun, and playing with fire [00:00:30] is cool and stuff. And yeah, a little bit. Not quite melting. Just like playing with fire in general. Oh, good fun. So what type of anime do you like? A lot. It's more kind of what I get. I watch it. And if I like it, I like it. And if I don't? I don't. It's kind of the pile. Sorry. What was that, then? You put in the fire pile? No, no, no. It just sits on my hard drive. Just look at it. [00:01:00] No, not necessarily. Don't burn all my stuff. It's pretty. I like pretty things. I don't burn the pretty ones. This looks pretty. You got the pie here in the corner there. And the whole final fancy. What is all the stuff here. Um, Victoria Francis posters. So it's Gothic art work. It's quite creepy and cool. Gothic arch. So what music are you into? Music. I'm into [00:01:30] K pop. So I listen to Korean music. Um, including, but he's not my favourite, but everyone knows who he is. Um, because it went viral. But it's more like, um, Wonder girls miss a girl's generation. And shiny because shiny, shiny, shiny, glittery things not necessarily glitter just just shiny. In general, this glitter is too messy for you. Glitter makes a mess. [00:02:00] It's her piece of arts and you know Yes, it is. I know there's more difficult stuff to deal with than that. OK, so you went to the QS a last week in palmy. No, I didn't. You know. So when I say, um, um, what is your six? I'm male. Yes. And when I say a gender identity, Do you know what that is? I guess so. I identify myself as a gay male. [00:02:30] Yes, And your sexuality is gay, obviously, as you just said, uh, cultural identity. Um, I'm kind of New Zealand like. And how do you express yourself in a feminine, masculine twink camp. Toy boy. I wouldn't say express myself. I'm just naturally quite camp. Yeah, your natural, feminine way. Yeah. A natural [00:03:00] or natural way is not always the best, but it's just who I am. So And you, Occasionally you occasionally turn into a black woman. I did not turn into a black woman, and I always sit up like a black woman. But that's what I said. Yes. Um, So when did you realise that you were gay? Probably when I was when [00:03:30] I fully knew I was probably 16. And between 16 and 17, Um, after a straight relationship kind of lasted a year and then kind of broke up, and that whole whole year with her kind of opened myself up to the gay side because she was bisexual and, yeah, open me up to kind of past stuff in my life. Hm. Did you ever have a moment when you were younger, where you saw, like, [00:04:00] a guy in class thinking? Oh, that's not necessarily a going in class. When I was about 13, I did have, um, my best friend kind of come on to me. Um, I did freak out, and we just the friendship kind of went a little bit downhill from there to the point where he now just doesn't talk to me at all. You don't talk to him at all. Well, not really. But he did sort of add me on Facebook [00:04:30] a few weeks ago, and that was really, really weird. He's trying to connect with you again. I don't know. It used to be If I walked past him, he would purposely turn the other way just to kind of be that negative. Um, so it was really weird that he came into my work, talked to me and added me on Facebook purposely purposely. Oh, wait, I think he added me on Facebook when he was very, very, very drunk. So it's hard to tell how [00:05:00] purposely that was or it was an oh, shit moment. Or probably like I need to be drunk before I do this. Click. Possibly, Um, I think at the time he was looking for a ride home from um so he was trying to connect to anyone he could on Facebook to try and achieve that. So there could be some underlying issues there that he wants to reconnect. But it's too far past to try and refix the friendship, considering he identifies [00:05:30] himself as a straight male. Still, even though he's a very closeted gay, very, which makes no sense, not necessarily no, it's I don't know, I said. He is probably bisexual. He's a very kind of a ladies man type person. As everyone knows them, they're annoying and flirty at all times. And it's just a hassle. Yeah. So, um, when [00:06:00] did you come out of the closet I. I didn't really have, like, a big coming out of the closet type thing. It's because I'm naturally feminine. People just kind of guessed it. Um, when I was in a straight relationship, most people were very surprised. Um, that was before I realised I was gay. And then all of a sudden, it's like, Bang. Actually, I am gay, and everyone was just, like, kind of like OK, um and that was it. Um, so there wasn't really [00:06:30] coming out of the closet. It was just a I would float around the closet, but I was never in it. You're like decorating the closet. Yeah, like your finger nail was on the closet. But you didn't actually come out of it. My closet was quite, um, styled for me. Um, like, my room is quite me. It's quite random. It's got different aspects of my life. Kind of like the whole Gothic art anime DVD [00:07:00] S. Yeah, like some soft toys. Most of them did go back in the closet. Um, and then I've got kind of my fire stuff and Big Rainbow Lady Gaga flag, which, Yeah, my brother tries to give me shit about that. But you're like, No, it's like, Nah, it's lady Gaga. It's epic. Have you ever wear a meat dress? I haven't. No, I haven't worn a meat dress. [00:07:30] Um, that would disgust me. No, I I'm not necessarily entirely a really meaty type person anyway, So a meat dress is disgusting. Well, she she's a lady. Gaga is vegan, and she wore a meat dress. You sure she's vegan? She says she is. I'm pretty sure she's not, she says on Ellen, the that perhaps she is in, I don't know. She's kind of lost heaps of weight, so probably [00:08:00] from dancing on stage every single night. Well, not necessarily, because you hear her puffing in between songs. She's not the fittest person in the world. Anyhow, um, we've gone from coming out of the closet to your room to Lady Gaga, as you do as you do. Um, who did you tell first if you could. First person I told was my ex. Um, [00:08:30] so she was the first person I told it. It was quite rocky from then on. Um, but apart from that, it was a few close friends, like the norm tell a few friends and kind of spreads around. So it's that one person that decides to tell the whole entire world your business, and you kind of get annoyed with them. But I was kind of like, Yeah, I didn't actually occur any issues when I was at school. So it wasn't hugely a big deal for me. You became the gay celebrity [00:09:00] again. I wasn't really the gay celebrity. I kind of guess I was. I was more like, Don't fuck with me. Kind of. I'm not in the mood. Yeah, like if you're gonna give me shit. Well, big deal, Like one chick tried to cut in front of me in the line one time, and I said, bitch move. And she was just like, Oh, no, you're gay. And I say, Oh, no, you're a fucking slut and just walked past her because, like, why should I let her shit [00:09:30] kind of get in my way? And she's just some dumb SK. So who cares? You get those around the world a lot in high school, not just high school. I've met a lot of people working and stuff that are just the same. They don't grow out of the high school stereotype of the stupid slut. So, um, what was the main reaction that you got in when you came out of the closet? [00:10:00] Kind of like the Oh, no, shit. I was like, Oh, OK, good for you. A smiley face. Still best friends. Um, yeah, because as an art department student, everyone's quite Cruz to the point where they don't give a shit about people. They're not judgmental because they're quite open minded. Um, probably because they have to, like art students look at art in every perspective possible. So therefore, there's not normally judgmental people there, [00:10:30] so it was quite cool. Um, other aspects. Most people just weren't worried about it. If they had a problem, they just didn't talk to me, and I was fine with that. No one kind of brought it up to cause issues or anything, Which is quite cool, because I know lots of people, Um, don't get that experience. They get the negative side of it, which is the abuse and the bullying. Um, [00:11:00] luckily, I didn't get that side, but I'm always willing to help people who do get that side. Hm. So you had a bit of a support system, I guess. I had a support system. It was mainly kind of a self based support system, but I had friends when I needed them. Um, which is always great to have, like, a best friend that you can just go talk to and sit with and go for a walk or kind of in the middle of that class. [00:11:30] Just walk out because that's what we did, which was quite cool. Simple form. Hm. So, um, you've had a few relationships? Uh, yeah, I've had a few successful relationships, and I've had quite a lot of could have been relationships like that. Kind of not flings kind of short term relationships where I've kind of got to the point where if they're under a month, they weren't a proper relationship. [00:12:00] Yeah, they were. They were more of a fling or just see how it would go. And if it works out, it works out and develops into a relationship or what? It's just, you know, um, it's not gonna work out. So why bother worrying about it kind of thing, Which in some cases, it sounds quite like a negative aspect, Um, to just say, Oh, yeah, whatever. Um, but seriously, a month isn't that long. And if you're gonna have a huge cry over it and hate someone, what's the point? I [00:12:30] believe it's better just to be kind of like friends and go, Yeah, that didn't work out. Still friends? Um, yeah. Um, and I talk to, uh, all of my exes I'm good terms with, which is uncommon for most people, too. So obviously, I didn't have really bad ending relationships. It was more this. This isn't quite working out more mutual. Yeah, this isn't quite working out. It's depressing. OK, a week over. At best, friends [00:13:00] again. Obviously, there's some relationships that are, like, quite choppy for a while, but kind of like a fuck you? Yeah, there has been a few. Fuck you. But normally it's like a after six months. It's like, come across and catch up and Ah, look. Yeah. Ha ha. That was our little thing. Yeah, I remember that time. Yeah. Laughing story kind of thing. Yeah. Totally. Um, yeah. I don't know what else to say. [00:13:30] This relationship. So, um, how do you meet other people in the LGBTI Q community? So there is the obvious way of meeting people, which is NDND. Yeah. Um, I. I don't actually meet people of NDI. I talk to people. Um, it's Yeah. There's a lot of crepes online. It's It's I can normally quite judge people quite well, so I don't normally meet people like ND. Unless I've just been talking to them for a while. Um, I normally just chat [00:14:00] to friends that I've been talking to online for ages, but without meeting them, Um, there is Facebook. Um, I have been kind of associated with a few kind of support gay youth groups. Um, online based, um, at the moment, I've got, like, six or seven. It's getting a bit crazy because all the updates are slightly annoying. Um But I'm always here to help people, which is quite cool. Like I had privileges that other people don't. So I like to [00:14:30] try and make sure people kind of have support because yeah, um other thing is, I normally meet people at, um so which is Yeah, it's more of a friend thing. Everyone there is quite positive people. There is the catty bitchiness that you get through, but yeah, gay associations and all of that, um, is quite different in that way. It's quite funny, because [00:15:00] I What I see of the gay bar, that gay band specifically is that it looks like something that a gay bar would look like. Pre-law form. It was prelaw form. So it was one of the I believe it is the first gay bar in New Zealand. Um, it did start off somewhere else. I have read the history of it, but I can't quite come across where it was from. Like in the sixties sixties seventies. Yeah, when it was still illegal. That's why it's kind of in [00:15:30] a dark, creepy alley. Um, but because it's last so long, Q is a little bit like a family. Um, obviously it's a dysfunctional family, but it it works quite nicely, and everyone is normally really, really good terms with each other. Um, I haven't come across any major drama there. Um, some people think there's lots of drama I personally haven't hasn't affected me at all. I guess that [00:16:00] way, everyone is different. In that way, Drama is generally like exboyfriends car ex ex boyfriend. It's sleeping with the wrong person. It it's gossip in general of all hating for no reason. Um, because it it a members club. Um, everyone is quite close, and it's kind of voluntary work and how everything goes. Um, there's not kind of creeps trying to get into people. I think they babe sick quite a while ago. [00:16:30] Um, apparently it was quite bad a few years ago, but it was before I started going there. So, yeah, so what is your definition of virginity? It's an odd one. I have been with a girl, so I would say, technically, that sort of virginity, um, I yeah, it's one of those odd questions that's yeah, it's It's whatever you feel it would be. [00:17:00] It's It's more of a personal thing. Um, it is kind of an odd thing. It's something that's not really, um, valued so much as it used to be. So therefore, the the question isn't quite as valued as it would used to be as well. Um, I think virginity is to me. It's more based, kind of male female, um, kind of the bond between them, like the whole of marriage and all that, um, [00:17:30] from every religion on this. So it's kind of that, um, I guess if you were bisexual, some people don't count as the same sex as virginity. Um, some people do, Um, if you're fully gay, you probably think your first time would be losing your Vidin. But kind of if you've been to both sides, it's kind of which one would you count? [00:18:00] Like the um, not knowing what I who I was with a straight relationship. I would say, Yeah, that was sort of losing my virginity. But then again, there's the whole opening to myself, to who I truly am. And then there's the kind of gay side of it, too, which could be kind of like a second virginity. But it could also be counted as that was your virginity as because that is the true you. So have you experienced [00:18:30] or received any abuse or abusive behaviour because of your sexuality or gender identity? No. That much? I um not? Not necessarily. I have kind of marginal verbal and physical abuse from my younger brother. Um, but I believe that's more just him coming through his teenage years and just [00:19:00] being a total C, like every teenage boy, is at the age of 15. Um, throughout school, I didn't really receive abuse. There's probably some, uh, verbal abuse. It was I would take it and they would get abuse back. So it it didn't affect me. I don't I don't believe it did. It possibly did mentally, deep down. But it's my outlook is quite positive, so I don't believe [00:19:30] it has, um, through through work. I No, I haven't. I haven't received abuse in any way because of my sexuality. I do get some customers and such because I work in retail, they just don't like me. Um, which it's it's their problem. Um, if they don't like me, they don't have to talk to me. There's other people that can serve them. Um, recently, I've gone through one of this. I don't know if it's because of sexuality, or [00:20:00] she just didn't get her way. So she just behaving on me. But yeah, it's It's just how life is. Everyone gets a their own way. People get teased for almost anything. Um, unless you're like the huge bully. But then again, you probably got abuse somebody else in your life. So it's everyone gets it in in marginal ways. Um, some of it is just uncalled for and una fear some of it's just [00:20:30] something small. And they take it too much to have. So, yeah, I think Yeah. Got a quite a good good life that way. Hm. Yeah. Well, thank you for the interview. Uh, you're welcome. Yeah.

IRN: 665
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_alexandra.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004031
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089325
TITLE: Alexandra - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Closet Space; Manawatū; Palmerston North; Q12 (series); abuse; arts; biphobia; bisexual; bullying; family; friends; gender identity; health; homophobia; identity; music; parents; pride; relationships; school; sex; support; youth
DATE: 12 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Manawatū, Manawatu, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alexandra talks about being young and bisexual in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I am great. That's great. Um, how are you, Alexandra? That's good. Good to know that. You know, um, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Uh, well, what am I supposed to say? Anything you like? Well, I love music, and I love arts and biology. Oh, my God. Sorry. Um, I got straight that this [00:00:30] No. Stop looking at the bar. No, I'm not an alcoholic. I just like flavours anyway. Um, yeah, I guess I like flavours. I like food. Um, and what should I say? Your time to shine? Well, if it's views on, like, people's sexuality, I think tell us a little bit [00:01:00] about myself. OK, Um well, I go to girls high, and, um, at my last year, I have no idea what I'm going to do next year, but just get a job or something. In the meantime, um, what music do you like? I like all kinds of music. I'm not really one to judge anything. I'm more like a person that accepts everything can help people out when they need it. [00:01:30] Yeah. So you went to the QS. A No. This is actually my first time here, but I've been meaning to come here for a long time. Just Yeah, it never got around to it because I had parents restrictions before, But now I don't live at home, so I can go out if I want to. Yeah. So what is your sex? I am a girl. So if I say gender identity, are you a girl as well? No, actually [00:02:00] surprisingly, I kind of switch between both sexes, depending on my mood and and also, depending on who I am with, Like what? I feel comfortable as being so around my friend Carla, I'll be a complete tomboy, and we'll do insane things. And then around Lauren will be really hyper and girly, but also sometimes a tomboy. Yeah. Expression. Well, well, how I feel. I, um maybe expression is like, [00:02:30] feminine masculine tomboy. Well, even though I am a girl and I love being a girl, I actually have that masculine vibe about me because I just like it. Do you feel like you want to be a male? Sometimes I used to, um, but now I've just kind of accepted that it doesn't matter. It doesn't really matter, but yeah, I used to. I really I used to be a joke about being a guy and dress up as a guy and everything, you know. But now I personally don't really care what [00:03:00] I come off as is, you know? Yeah. So what is your sexuality? I am Bye. So greedy. Oh, so that's what they call it. They say no. No, it's just some people call it greedy. Um, I call it, um I just say, Well, I'm not I'm not going to judge people by, you know, uh, their sex and, you know, the the physical sex. And, you know, um, I'm more like judge people by who they are, and I judge them on that. So I don't [00:03:30] really notice the sex. Yeah, I'm really I guess it comes off with the really accepting part of me, but yeah. Can you tell us a little bit? What's that? Um, I have a scar. Um, I you know, when you get baby shots when you're a baby, Um, will they give you like you shots just to help start you so you don't get sick and stuff being so young and your immune system being so new? Um I had a bad reaction to my [00:04:00] shot, and my ex is just coming under control now. And, um Well, when my expert flied up, I was, what, three days old? So then there's actually pictures of me without it. Um, I was three days old, and, uh, this my parents' friend at the time, she really wanted to scratch my face. But my parents said no, because you will hurt her. And, you know, being an infant and having really vulnerable skin, it's going to, you know, do something. And that's exactly [00:04:30] what it did. Um, she scratched my face, and I got a really scabby there. And ever since, it's just been scarred and brown and I used to get ridiculed for it growing up, um, I was not the popular one. Growing up at primary, I was more like the one everyone picked on because of it. And I found it really sad because it was, um, you know, it wasn't something I could control, But it's just the ignorance of Children. What would they want to scratch your face? [00:05:00] Uh, because I had eczema and I was trying to scratch, but so she probably wanted to scratch it to make me feel better. But really, she just made it worse. Yeah. So, um So when did you realise that you were a boy? I think I realised quite early on. I mean, I always had a thing for girls, and I didn't develop my, you know, thing for guys until right up till high school. Yeah, and so I thought maybe I was lesbian [00:05:30] because I love girls, and I still do I. I guess I'm a typical guy when it comes to a good looking girl. Like I'm not like class classing gulls or anything, but yeah, you just can't ignore it. Um, But then then I realised I'm by during during high school, I accepted that I was by mainly because my friends around me were also by and it was really acceptable thing in our group, and I loved it. You know, You didn't have to, like, [00:06:00] hide the side of me. So I just thought in the end, No, I'm just gonna be me, you know, and I'm just going to accept it. You can't control it and, you know, don't don't feel like bad about it or anything. I mean, it's just who you are. I mean, you might not like it, but yeah, better being who you are than trying to be something you're not. How How did you feel when you realised? Actually, uh, it wasn't. It was kind of a bit upsetting because my mum doesn't like buys because she finds us greedy. That's probably where [00:06:30] I got greedy, but from she she doesn't. I mean, she doesn't mind lesbians or gays, but when it comes to buy, she just thinks you're greedy and you can't make up your mind and you're being stupid. So I was a bit, um, really reluctant to let her know, But father was always accepting it. He always knew it wasn't me. So could have always told her that you're a pansexual, Probably. Yeah, but I get big words from Mom. She's not going to pay attention. I must say she's illiterate [00:07:00] or anything. It's just Well, what will I call the Well, what do you call it? Biological side of really, like things to do things other to do then, with like things that she's great with, like teaching and everything like that. She's not going to understand it. Yeah. Yeah, So have you. So you did. You ever went through a denial period when you realise that you're a um actually, I Because [00:07:30] I had been I had been into girls for so long. I actually went through a denial stage where I didn't like guys. Yeah. And, um, I was like, That's quite I've never heard this before The other way around. Um, it's just because, um, I was born lesbian, and I refused to date guys. No, no, no. I'm coming out of the closet. I'm like, I guess it's because, um growing up, you know, always being guilt and always accepting it and stuff. And guys, [00:08:00] the idea of being with a guy kind of scared me. So I I was really reluctant to, you know, accept it. But eventually I did. And so I'm actually really OK, Now you're OK around guys I. I mean, you've always been around. OK, guys, I grew up around guys because I was a tomboy and I always liked girls. And when I had girlfriends, we just kind of been, like, overly friendly. And so it was, um I was [00:08:30] used to it, but when it comes to like seeing a guy other than a friend. Um, was new shock for you? Yeah. I'm just like, Oh, my God. What is wrong with me? Because my friend, you Oh, my God, He's hot. But it's not. I can't do this. It's not really looks that make me like someone. It's who they are. And that's probably why I leaned towards friends is because, um that that sounds more like pansexual than Yeah, [00:09:00] Well, actually, maybe it is pansexual. I just sort of by just so people don't get confused. So I know exactly what I'm on. Bisexual. Bisexual is more about a physical attraction between two genders where pansexual is more about, um, your feelings for a, uh for the person as the personality. OK, so here we go. Clear that up. I am not greedy. It was very open. Um, Anything else you like that? Um, [00:09:30] the next question. So are you our deposit? Yes. Definitely. Um, definitely was, um, out since year nine. Yeah, as close as that I. I just let everyone know what happened. I told my friends they always know it. So it wasn't really anything new to them, but telling classmates, um, they kind [00:10:00] of like, you know, got a bit stupid over it. But eventually they just like, Nah, that doesn't bother I. I love it because the people that I'm around are really accepting. And also the people that I'm around now are even more accepting or even part of it themselves. So especially if they are going to like a closet space. Well, I always mean to mean to go because, you know, just to see everyone else's views and stuff. I mean, I find it really I'm not going to, like, you know, classify anyone. It's just who you are and everything. Everybody [00:10:30] has something in common. Exactly. I find it awesome, you know? And you know, you should be proud of it because it's better to be proud than to be ashamed, because ashamed, you can get hurt, but proud. You feel proud, and you're just happy. So when you, um, you came out to your parents, um, came out to my Oh, it wasn't a very happy thing to come out with my parents because, um well, Dad, it was simple and easy. Um, he always knew [00:11:00] it. And so and also him being accepting. He's got, um You know, uh, he's got a gay uncle, so he's used to it and he accepts it, and he doesn't see anything wrong with it. Um, he just say, Be careful because people can hurt you. But other than that, he's just really well welcomed it. I think everybody in that case, I think that's what that's the case for everybody, though I think that what made me really happy about him proving that he really did accept it is like, don't you ever sneak a boy or a girl [00:11:30] in your room? I don't want to find a boy or a girl in your room, Alex or a girl Classify the guilt, you know? And he he was like, really pointing out guilt. I don't think it was either. He was accepting it, but he knew. I mean more towards girls. So he'll know I'm more likely to see a girl and then a guy, Um, Mum, when we actually had a real big argument. And that's when I was just like, you know what? I like girls more than like guys. That was when I was going to a stage where I did actually like [00:12:00] girls more than guys before I came to the point where I just accepted both and, um, I just screamed it out at her and then just stormed off. And dad, you know, didn't like how I told her, you know, could have told her in a more mature way and not just out of it, because obviously, it would have been a shock for her because she didn't notice that. I mean, you know, she was, you know, you see a lot of people with Tom. I mean, she was a tomboy growing up, and so she didn't think anything different of it. And she probably thinks that you're the perfect child. No, not [00:12:30] the perfect child. Actually, I'm considered the most rebellious child in the family. But that's that's That's only because I'm the most honest child in the family. I mean, the only reason why other people in the family aren't considered rebellious is because they're quiet. They lie. They you know, you know, don't be honest, but I'm just honest, and I like being honest and so obviously honestly, get yourself in trouble, but oh, well, so on your little friends group, you had a support system. [00:13:00] Yeah, we had a great support system. I mean, my friend, she she's my best friend. Being my best friend growing up, she was always, um she actually had a denial stage with me, too. Going through where she didn't like guys, um, or didn't like the idea of liking guys. And actually, she only now has finally accepted it and actually got her first guy boyfriend. I mean, my first boyfriend. Really? Because everyone's been girlfriends. And, you know, maybe [00:13:30] it was just She was scared as well, but it's kind of funny. It's like lesbians. The new straight. No, it's just that would actually be really awesome, though. I mean, I would go for that. Um, and also I had another friend who is not my friend anymore because she decided to really hurt me like not physically, but, you know, messing around with friends in there and giving me a title I don't deserve because I've never [00:14:00] done it. And so, yeah, but she's also one. And so she was really accepting as well. I mean, she would work for it as well. Would would would be more lean towards being a lesbian than actually straight. I guess that's maybe some. Maybe it's kind of a thing for girls to be either really proud of or proud to be different or, I don't know. It's just yeah, and so it was really accepting. And also I've got someone in there [00:14:30] Lauren who is also well, she's she's deciding. Yeah, still, Um, no, she's, um, deciding on her own sexuality and deciding on what she likes. So it's like, in a way, she's also deciding on the agenda. So she's not actually really sure on anything, because at the moment, she's not really keen on anything at the moment, so we'll just give her time to figure it out. Are you been in relationships before? A [00:15:00] lot of girl relationships and tell me about Well, they were really. I guess I was a bit, well, really stupid. When it came to girl relationships. I didn't take them seriously, but I guess it's yeah, it because they were more like, you know, friends and accepting. And I guess they didn't really take it seriously. I mean, I didn't take it seriously, but also I was young when I did all that. So, um, a lot of girl relationships and then one boyfriend a couple of years ago. And [00:15:30] I stopped going out with guys ever since then because, um, we went out for nine months, but he decided to blow me off because he wanted to. Because after I built up, you know, his confidence and everything to make him feel good about himself and built up his social life and everything. He's just like, No, I don't need you anymore. And a lot. It is probably the reason why I went through that denial stage because it really hurt. And I try not to get emotional over all this stuff, but yeah, it really hurt. [00:16:00] And, um uh, I finally I didn't date anyone since then. Nobody since then. And only recently. Well, not really recently, more like during the whole beginning of this year and from probably what end of school? Last year, I got really close with my friend, my who is now my boyfriend, Brandon. And, uh, yeah, and he's just I hope Well, now that I'm more mature and you know more serious on relationships, I don't want to, like, [00:16:30] blow it off over stupidity or yeah, and not taking it seriously because, you know, there's no point in that. What's the point of going out with someone if you're not going to stick with them kind of thing? So I hope you last and yeah. So, um, how do you meet other people in the gay community or LGBTI Q community? I think. What's really, um how do I meet them, or how do I just, like, how did they out with it with me? How you meet them? Um, [00:17:00] I don't know. I just meet everyone. I'm they're attracted to you. It's not like attracted or like like, well, I'm social. I even even even if they like quiet and everything, I'll talk to everyone and anyone because I'm nice and I like, make sure someone's OK. I mean, I'm that nice. Um, and, uh, Well, because I'm so open about my sexuality, I guess it maybe gives them a cue to be Oh, I can be comfortable around this person. I can tell them, you know. So I guess that's [00:17:30] probably how it was. So, um, what is your definition of virginity? Well, my definition is probably different from a lot of people because I got mine stolen twice, So I guess the definition of virginity is where I always thought it was. You know that first time when you actually, you know, do it for the first time. But if you have it stolen, then maybe you can, you know, consider [00:18:00] first time when you're actually willing to give it away. That's what I think. Yeah, I mean, it's sad that you don't have it. I mean, it hurts that I didn't have mine, but when you're really honestly willing to give it away, you want to give it away, you know, and you feel ready to give it away and ready to let it go. That's what I think is the definition of not not for the fact that you've actually done it. Unless when it was actually your first time. And you did really want to give it away [00:18:30] then? Yeah, that's my definition. Really? Have you been abused or received any abusive behaviour because of your sexuality? Um, I did a couple every now and then I'll get the odd person that goes stupid. And, you know, it's just by sheer ignorance and arrogance. Yeah, um, where they would insult me for it and insult my friends for it because they're with it too. Yeah, and I would just go just ignore them because [00:19:00] they just don't know And, you know, really honestly feel sorry for them. Because if they're going to be rude enough to do that, then obviously they're just They're unhappy with themselves or trying to put up a wall where they are something that they're not, you know, And maybe it is just plain arrogance. You know, I don't want anything to do with that kind of thing. Just their own view. So I don't really take it to heart when I get insulted about it, because they just don't know. Yeah. Oh, thank you for the interview. Oh, you're welcome.

IRN: 663
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_tamara.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004030
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089324
TITLE: Tamara - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Closet Space; Manawatū; Māori; Palmerston North; Q12 (series); abuse; bisexual; bullying; facebook. com; family; farm; homophobia; internet; music; parents; regions; relationships; religion; school; sex; support; takatāpui; twitter. com; youth
DATE: 12 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Manawatū, Manawatu, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Tamara talks about being young and bisexual in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm good. How are you? I'm good. What's your name? That's good. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Um, not very exciting. Um, well, that's exciting. I I have three cats and a dog. We're gonna get sheep and chickens, and I want a bunny soon. I've named it Pegasus. Where do you live? On a farm. Yeah, that's pretty cool. [00:00:30] What? What else do you like? Do you have any hobbies or likes showering? That's what I do. That's generally important. Like my favourite thing. Showering is very important. Generally. Yeah. Yeah. Um, as a hobby. Um, I don't know. I text a lot on Twitter, Facebook, Twitter, the general, the general thing. [00:01:00] How about music? Do you like music? I love music. Um, I played so many instruments, but I only do guitar at the moment. And I know I'm into, like, metal alternative. Yeah, I love disturbed. Um, no, I was so that I wasn't allowed. I think they've been here, like, three times or something like that. Yeah. And they got into them like, year nine. So a while ago. [00:01:30] Yeah. So, um, you were you here for the QS A for a teaching thing here at closet space last week. No, I didn't come last week, but I usually just not. Last week something happened and some strong the para Oh, dear. I was gonna say the planets aligned or something like that, but no, no car accident, but yeah, Yeah, a bit [00:02:00] dramatic. Are you OK? Yeah, I'm fine. Um, So what is your sex? So when I say gender identity, do you know what that means? Uh, like, which I identify myself as being Yes. Yeah. No, that's good. Um, what is your sexuality? Um, I am bisexual. Bisexual? What is your culture? Identity culture? I [00:02:30] guess I'm mouldy, but we don't like we used to have a lot to do with that. And Mum used to speak it a lot, but we just don't really anymore. So I'm so sure. And what? How do you express yourself feminine masculine dyke or tomboy or anything like that? I'm kind of a tomboy. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, when did you realise that you were a boy? Uh, well, when I was, um, primary school, [00:03:00] actually, II, I thought I was a lesbian for a long time. like I had my first real crush when I was nine years old. And, yeah, I don't know. I was only into girls for ages. I wasn't until recently. I got a crush on this guy and decided I might be bisexual. Oh, wow. This is a big change. Yeah, it was a bit weird. Like, it's not like I've ever dated guys or anything, because I had I just had always decided I'm [00:03:30] not really into this, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So, um, did you ever went through, like, a big denial stage of your sexuality? Um, I went I never really denied it, but I went through a stage when I hit it. Like I told other people. No, I'm not gay, but I never, like, tried to fool myself. I don't like Yeah, [00:04:00] yeah. So it was a bit of a secret period kind of thing. Yeah, And there was time. How did you feel when you first realised it? Oh, I. I wasn't, like, too worried. I didn't freak out, but I knew it wasn't exactly normal. But was it like a light bulb moment? I think it was just over time. Really? It wasn't like a one moment when I knew I was gay. But it's like rainbows [00:04:30] and glitter buckles all across. Yeah, no, I don't know, but like, Oh, sorry. I think that's a different question. I wait, No, Go on. Go on. I was gonna say to my family, I never actually, like, came out of the closet. I guess my mum kind of just knew, you know? And then I brought this girl home, and after she left, Mum was like, [00:05:00] Are you more than friends? And I was like, Yes, like, I wasn't gonna deny I just Well, I didn't really want to have the conversation, but couldn't wasn't gonna lie. So yeah, that's kind of how that happened. And my mom told everyone so I didn't really have to say anything. Just a conversation with my mom, and she told everyone for me. Oh, thanks, Mom. Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah. Do you want to tell them that I also have a tattoo or something like that? Yeah. [00:05:30] Yeah, personal stuff. Mum. Thank you very much. Most of my family was really cool with it. Like I know my dad was a little bit weird about it. which I don't really mind and for ages like me and my dad were never close. We got close recently, but in the past, we haven't been like my stepmom was totally cool with it. She was, like, all about it. She was, like, raving on about all the gay friends and all this stuff. She saw an Aussie, and she went to, like, the parades and stuff. Yeah, yeah, she was like, she was really [00:06:00] excited. She had a gay child. Finally. Now my life is complete. Yeah, but Dad and me never talked about it until maybe a year ago. Yeah, I freaked out for ages, like I didn't even talk to my grandparents because they were, like, really heavily Christian. And so I was really like, I know lots of religious people are homophobic, and so I was quite scared that they were not gonna accept me or, like, disown me [00:06:30] like I hear about other people doing so. I don't know. I didn't see them too much, So when I did, I was kind of awkward after that. When I knew they knew. But I don't know. They don't think they they call my girlfriends. My little friends and stuff. And it's like, OK, so that's new. Um, sure. Like, your friend has a little friend like, Oh, she's great. She's She's She's great. Yeah. So, yeah, we don't like, [00:07:00] actually ever say that anything like that, but yeah, he's like, Hi, this is my little friend. Yeah. This is my new little friend. Yeah, it's funny. She's older than me. Yeah, she She seems taller than me as well, So I can I still call her my little friend? Yeah. Weird to call her my big friend. Oh, dear. We'll never have this conversation again. [00:07:30] Anyhow, um, and what was it like coming out to your friends? And are you out to your friends? I am, Yes. Uh, well, I've been to three different high schools, so there was very different chances to do that the first time I came out with one of my girlfriends, so that was OK. We just like and that was at a Catholic school. So we just kind of joked about [00:08:00] it a lot and brushed everyone off, and it was like we were together. So it didn't matter. In my second school, I got bullied for it. A lot. And so there were certain people I would deny it to like people that I knew were gonna judge me. If they asked me questions, I would deny it or whatever. I don't really think of it as lying. I was just avoiding being bullied by these people by being like, no, So that me alone and then other people, I would tell the truth. And, like all my friends knew, and they were all cool [00:08:30] with it. Oh, there was one guy at that. Wasn't so cool with it. He was being a real dick to me and these other people, and I punched him in the face. Hurt me or him. That didn't hurt me. He cried later on, he was he was talking to someone, and he was like, Well, I'm not gonna tell her, because what am I gonna say? Lisbon punched me in the face. Oh, my God. She's very botch as well. [00:09:00] Know we're OK now. After that punch in the face. Yeah, he I think he got over himself. So, um, do you have a bit of a support system? What do you mean? Like you have people supporting you about your sexuality. Yeah, there's not really anyone at the moment who has a problem with it. Like, and also, you got closet space as well. Yeah, it's been really cool coming in closet space. Like I didn't even knew it existed until recently. Or, um, I think it was at the beginning [00:09:30] of this year that someone invited me to go with them, and I did. And I've been coming since, and it's really cool. And I've met cool people, and yeah, it's funky. Yeah. You know, I still I still think this bar just reminds me of what a gay bar would look like. Um, pre law reform. Wondering what's up there. That that's the backstage. But anyhow, um, So you've been in relationships [00:10:00] before? Yeah, Quite a few. Quite a few. Yeah. Fling or relationships or both, Uh, probably a little bit of both. Shortest. Being, like, two weeks and longest being a year and a half. So a bit? A bit a bit long. Yeah. Some of them. Yeah. You're practically married. No, not yet, but yeah. Can you tell us about something? Um, [00:10:30] yeah. I had a relationship with this girl at one of my schools and she She was not very well liked, but it was kind of her attitude of she doesn't care what anyone thinks and because she was very openly gay and people gave her shit a lot, and she would just throw it right back at them, so lots of people didn't like it. But I know I liked her and and I hung out with her a lot, and people were really mean to me because of it. But [00:11:00] that's OK. She ended up getting kicked out of the school. But anyway, yeah, and I had a relationship which is kind of recently ended that was went for for a year and a half. Nice. That was cool. She lived in Hastings, so it was long distance each other. Well, because she was actually 18. She was at the time when we first started going out, and I wasn't yet. [00:11:30] So yeah, at the time, and so she wasn't in school, but I still was. And so I kind of had, like, a reason to stay where I was. I couldn't go see her all the time, whereas she could. So she came and saw me at least once a month usually for a different anniversaries. Yeah. Oh, that's cute. Yeah, like on the 27th, every month, she'd be down here to the same way. She's quite cute. [00:12:00] My family didn't really like her, but they they allowed it, obviously, because she made me happy. And they were really nice like that. So she'd stay with us and, Well, yeah, sometimes she'd have to stay with my mum's friend when Mum decided. Otherwise she could stay. I don't know what that was about the moment. No, probably that was my most serious relationship. She [00:12:30] was really sweet. Like she did things like stuff that no one had ever done. Like a more adult relationship. Yeah. It was a proper, loving relationship. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So how do you meet other people in the gay community or the G BT IQ community and like, online? Yeah, Well, [00:13:00] yeah, I guess so. And settle this through friends? Yeah, through friends a lot. Especially if you have, like, gay friends. They have other gay friends, and yeah, So, um, what is your definition of virginity? Um, Well, like, there's a lot of confusion about that. Like when some people think it's when there's like [00:13:30] the the Hyman or something breaks, but I don't know, because that can be broken by lots of things. So I don't think that's that Or what's your personal opinion? Yeah, I'm not really sure. I think it's just when you decide to have sex with someone, that's when you lose it. Like I don't think if you're raped, you've lost your virginity. I think it's a choice. Yeah. Have you ever [00:14:00] gotten abuse or abuse have been have received in any abusive behaviour because of your sexuality? Um, I kind of obvious if you pump someone in the face Oh, yeah, yeah, that was me. But, uh, I don't know. There's lots of keyboard warriors who have a lot to say about it like online. I never heard that term before. Oh, yeah, the the computers [00:14:30] thinking they're real tough. But if you met them in real life I, I just can't, like, imagine, like a Viking, someone in a Viking costume and see what they think about this. And there was this girl who was homophobic and she was really dumb. Actually, we Oh, I can't remember. We said something and she [00:15:00] said something back that made no sense at all. And she tipped her fizzy drink over my friend's head because she thought she was a lesbian. She wasn't. She just hung out with me. And, um, yeah, there was, like, five of them there, and they were, like, in their little gang, and they were pushing us around and stuff. I don't know. We we told on them. And you've never seen them since. Haven't, actually. Yeah, Well, thank you for the interview. Oh, that's OK.

IRN: 662
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_lauren.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004029
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089323
TITLE: Lauren - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Closet Space; Palmerston North; Q12 (series); asexual; closeted; facebook. com; family; friends; gender identity; identity; internet; music; panromantic; parents; queer straight alliance (QSA); relationships; sex; singing; support; youth
DATE: 12 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Manawatū, Manawatu, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Lauren talks about being young and panromantic asexual in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm good. That's good. Who are you? I'm Lauren. Hello, Lauren. How are you today? Good. Just tell us that I'm random like that. I can tell. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Um, like what? Anything. Your time. Shine. Um, about your personality. It's pretty boring. Don't do much. Sit at home on the Internet. Play [00:00:30] canoe Polo. What? Play? Canoe polo, canoe polo, playing guitar and sing and sing piano. Not that talented. No, not quite. Not that many. So you like music? Yeah. Yeah. What type? Pretty much anything. Anything. Anything and everything. Pretty much. Yeah. What? Don't you like them? Justin Bieber? Oh, yes. Going back to the kid. [00:01:00] Pop the poppers. Yeah. Don't listen to that. I wonder why. Yeah. Uh, So were you here last week for QS A Yes. Yeah. How did you like that? It was good. You learn a lot of things. Yeah. Yeah. Understand a lot more things. Yeah. Are you gotta create your own group? I mean, trying to trying to Yep. Power. The rainbow [00:01:30] power kind of thing. Yeah. Anyway, um, So what is your sex? I don't have one you don't go on. I suppose my sex is female. Why did you say you don't have one? Because I don't identify with a gender. Oh, that. That was gonna be my next question. Uh, well, I'm [00:02:00] the head of it. Yeah. Yeah, but your sex is female, but your gender identity is neutral. Yes, or do you have? Do you have a name for it? Age, gender, age ended? Yes. Or genderless. Or the ex gender? Yeah. Yeah. So, um, what is your sexuality, then? Uh, Pan Romantic as romantic asexuals? A bit complicated. [00:02:30] It's not often that we get someone I get to interview someone. That's like, um that likes everyone and no one all at once. Oh, no, not not that. Not quite like that. That that, um that has, uh, the alternative of sexuality. That's not gay, lesbian or bi or pan. Like I've only had I've only interviewed one demisexual. I got super excited over it. I'm not even entirely sure what that is. Demisexual is when, [00:03:00] um, you are. It's kind of like it's kind of like you're either by a pan pan romantic or gay romantic or lesbian romantic, but you won't have sex with someone until you've made a actual, proper emotional connection. And it's kind of like a barrier kind of thing. And when you cross that barrier, then you might actually decide to go to the next level with them. However we that's a It's [00:03:30] a big, thick barrier. It might not actually happen unless you've got married or you just feel emotionally ready for it. Uh, I keep nodding and you can't tell that. No, no. The people on the other end that's listening to this can tell. Um, yeah, probably not. That's what Demisexual is. Ah, yeah. You can tell why I would get excited. Yeah, I don't think it's common or commonly heard about. No, it's not commonly heard about. [00:04:00] Some people might be, but not know what it is. Yeah, it's good for me to explain it. It would be So when did you realise that you were asexuals? Oh, a few months ago. I think before that I was identifying as gay. Could you tell us what happened that gave you the click of realising it? A lot of thinking like, [00:04:30] uh, I'm not really sure. Just a lot of I think when you went through a zone where you didn't know where. I pretty much shut myself in my room and didn't talk to anyone and thought, What am I kind of thing? Pretty much you had a A Mm. Possibly. Well, eventually in a Yeah, A really long drawn out one. [00:05:00] Yeah. You You're trying to find yourself in a way. Yeah, Yeah, yeah. How about, um, when you realise that you're a pen romantic? Um, maybe at the start of the year of the year, maybe maybe earlier. Um, a lot more thinking. Like, [00:05:30] um, I'm trying to remember my memory is not the best, but, oh, I was in a relationship at the time of a guy or a girl. A girl? Hm. 11 months long. It was quite a while, and oh, I was just, like, thinking about who I was [00:06:00] attracted to and which way, which is. Apparently different. Mm. Well, it was the first time. When did you realise that you were attracted to the same gender? Well, same gender or a certain gender. That was it. Just a few years ago, Like nearly two years ago. Do you know? Do you remember what happened? [00:06:30] Um, a lot more thinking. I don't actually remember that much, but I had a friend who's by still have a friend who's by still the same friend. Probably have lot of friends I buy. Yeah, quite a few now, and yeah, I don't know. And I was thinking, and then yeah, I just came to you. It came to you in a dream. I think it did. Yeah. There goes my phone earlier [00:07:00] along with my iPod, and I should pick that up. Yeah. So, um, I came to you in a So are you actually serious? I came to you in a dream. I fell asleep, and then I woke up and it was just like, Oh, they were attracted to the same sex. It's like, Oh, that just seems to happen. Just seems so normal. Did you ever went through a denial period? I'm not sure. Sort of go [00:07:30] through one and then come out and then go through again like, uh, looping cycle. Yeah, the same thing. Yeah, It was just like you got a bit confused. Kind of like like I am. I'm not I am not. I am not. It was kind of like a big argument against yourself? Yeah, kind of. Sort of like, uh, am I or am I not too? Yeah. Are you in the closet? [00:08:00] Kind of. Currently. Seem kind of. Who are you out to? A few friends and my mum. So when you spoke, um, when you told your mum What? What? How did you do it? Um, it was we were watching breakfast. She was watching breakfast, and I was sitting there looking at her and thinking, [00:08:30] Yeah, I think the weather was on. Um, I think it was someone else. Someone else in. I think Sam does The weather, too. Is that breakfast is on TV one, right? Yes. Someone she was watching some breakfast show with the weather man or something. And it was somewhere in the South Island. So not interesting, because we're not doing the the any time. Soon I was just sitting there, and [00:09:00] then I told her that she didn't hear me, and she was like, What? She didn't even know I was talking to her. Then I got attention. Somehow I don't quite remember how this was about two weeks ago. Just probably won't remember it and then told her again. And what was her reaction. She told me that [00:09:30] because I have all the female parts. I am therefore a female. And I'm too immature to know my sexuality. What did you say to that? I don't think I said anything and then left the house got off and Yeah, pretty much, uh, she got up and got in the shower, and I finished doing what I had to do and left and actually didn't go back for 14 hours, [00:10:00] maybe. Yeah. 14 hours. Mm. Was there any other conversation about her afterwards? No. No, she hasn't brought it up. I'm not bringing it up, OK, how about your friends? Um, sort of. I don't know. It's like some of them. I don't even know how they know. Like I know. I told some of them I don't remember who I've told. [00:10:30] Some of them know some of them don't. I was just more like a if they know, they know if they don't. Oh, well, yeah, so So, um, with the friends that do know, Do they support it? Yeah. Yeah. So you do. Have. So your friends have they become, like, your little support system in a way kind of Yeah. How about closet space? Have they supported you? Helped you so? Yes, [00:11:00] but I think I'm only out to a few of them. Mm. The others still think I'm gay and female, so Not entirely sure. Yeah. Yeah, right. Um, so you've how many relationships have you been in? [00:11:30] Um, I come the other day and I've forgotten. Um, we're kind of getting now, I. I get one, but estimate, um, six. I think. Six. What were they like? Who were they? Well, not you don't need who, Uh people. People? Yeah. Humans. Were they females? Males [00:12:00] or two female? Four males. I say females again. More males. Two females. What were they like? Um, if someone is short, one was really long and the couple were in the middle. That's very fake. Yeah, One of them was, like, a few years ago. I don't really remember it. One of them I remember quite well, because [00:12:30] it was finish ended in July this year, I think. Yeah. Hm. So, um, how do you meet other people in the LGBTI Q community? Mostly here. I know some through school, facebook, through facebook, a few from [00:13:00] online forms. And that's probably about it. So what is your definition and virginity? I don't really know. Do you think it's just a a physical thing? A sexual thing? Or could it be an emotional thing as well? I think that there could be, like, both. Mm. [00:13:30] But you're not entirely sure? Yeah. Mm. Not one of the things I've thought about in my many. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lots and lots of thinking. But not usually that. Hm. It's not really something that doesn't cross my mind very often. It's not important to you. Not really? No, not really know. So, um, have you ever received any abuse [00:14:00] or abusive behaviour because of your sexuality or gender identity? Um, not because of my gender identity, because nobody really knows about it. Except for unless you consider what my mom said. This abuse, but not really. I think that's more like she doesn't understand. Probably. Um, but they can also be crossed with ignorance as well. A bit of both. Yeah, I don't know who your mother, so I can't really comment on that. [00:14:30] Yeah, depending on the person. I'm not out to many people as as either, but cheers. Uh, I'm not sure I'm not sure. How about Has anybody ever, um, verbally, like, screamed out to you? Are you lesbian or something? Or dyke or faggot or something like that? I think so. But you don't know at this present time, I [00:15:00] can't quite remember. I know some of my friends have as a joke, but that's different. Well, thank you for the interview. You're welcome.

IRN: 661
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_daniel.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004028
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089322
TITLE: Daniel - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: Aotearoa New Zealand; Closet Space; Club Q (Palmerston North); Ireland; MS Messenger; Manawatu Lesbian and Gay Rights Association (MALGRA); Manawatū; Masterton; Māori; Palmerston North; Q12 (series); Rainbow Youth; UniQ (Palmerston North); abuse; bullying; chat room; closeted; coming out; death; facebook. com; family; friends; gay; internet; isolation; music; nzdating. com; parents; queer straight alliance (QSA); relationships; religion; school; sex; singing; single sex schools; stereotypes; support; venues; youth
DATE: 12 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Manawatū, Manawatu, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Daniel talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? Hi. I'm very good. Thanks. That's good. How are you? Um um my name is Daniel and I'm a 19 year old homo from Palmerston North. Fun? That's a good description. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Um well, I'm currently studying IC T at UOL, but I'm primarily a singer. I'm doing IC T, and I hope to get a career, and that will give me some money and then maybe play pubs on the weekends and just do music [00:00:30] because music is my passion. So music is more like your hobby in a way. Music's my hobby, but I want it to be a hobby that I make money off, which would be very, very cool. Which would that would work quite well. Yes, it would, but unfortunately, it's harder than you might think twice that there's a lot of competition in cities like this. Um, um, I've got some friends who have made it in big bands, but it's hard to break out as a solo artist just because, Well, for one, [00:01:00] I can't play guitar or piano for shit, so it's quite hard to accompany myself, but, um Yeah, generally you need to be a big band, and you need to play what the audience wants instead of what you like to play. So big bands and round palmy hiding would be evermore evermore. Yes, that's that's the most famous band, But there's a few around here. Um, there's the Blue Grizzly Band, which is formed up of mostly all of my friends from my old music course, [00:01:30] and they're doing pretty well. They recently won $1000 off the battle of the bands. And yeah, they're probably the biggest name in palmy that I know right now. Currently. Currently, yes, it's kind of shifting. So one might get to the top and then fall suddenly. Yeah. So did you went into the QS a last week? Um, yes. I was one of the facilitators there who attended the QS a workshop. And we learned, um, valuable tools about starting up, um QS [00:02:00] a groups inside actual schools. However, there was a bit of information that wasn't really relevant to me, seeing as I've left conventional high school and it's kind of hard to apply some things learned to UC and other tertiary institutes. So what is your sex. I am a boy. I am a man. So when I say gender identity, do you know what that means? Uh, yeah. Um I identify in every sense of the word [00:02:30] as a man. I am both physically and gender. Identify as a boy. And what, And your sexuality is gay? Yes, I am a complete homo. A complete homo. Um, what is your culture? Identity? That's a tough one. I'm both Irish and Maori. I'm about 50% Maori, though you wouldn't know what to think of me or look at me there. Um, but I [00:03:00] generally identify as Irish as I've got more ties to the culture there. And it's it's a lot easier than saying I want to claim everything as mine. Yeah, I pretty much identify as Irish, but I I'll acknowledge the Kiwi a lot. And when you like, hear people playing Irish music, you just go into a bit of a Yeah, um, there was this one time when I was down in Wellington with some friends and a busker was playing, um, a bit of a jig on [00:03:30] his violin. And I just looked at my friends and we knew instinctively what to do. So we started walking up to him and we just erupted into this random sort of jiggy dance. And we started dancing around while he was playing the violin and people clapped. It was it was a lot of fun. Not often you get that. No, it's not. But I don't like I prefer to do what I feel like, as opposed to worry about what other people think of me in the heat of the moment. Like finding a location for this interview was hard [00:04:00] because I was worried about personal content. But I don't care what other people think of me just by looking at me or looking at something what I'm doing. So what is, um how do you express yourself in a feminine, masculine camp twink bear Any other votes? Well, unfortunately, and I only say unfortunately, because I dislike the stereotypes, I would probably fit into the twink category. But, um, I prefer myself [00:04:30] as just a normal guy. Um, I can sometimes be feminine. I can be sometimes masculine. Um, there are a lot more straight acting times than camp times, but, um, yeah, I don't like thinking things like hair colour or clothing should define what you think yourself as. Yeah. So when did you first realise that you had an attraction to [00:05:00] another male? Um, that's an interesting story. Basically, um, I was 12 years old, and it was just after Christmas when my mom had bought me a brand new phone and it wasn't that great. It was a little old colour phone that didn't have a camera, But I was in love with it. And, um, what ended up happening was I ended up going on to a chat room with the phone's data and just talking to people, and then you could only have [00:05:30] very limited user names. And there was a guy there who only had the user name gay, and I'd never talked to or heard of a gay person before. So I was curious. And then I remember messaging him saying, Are you really gay? And, um, he messaged me something along the lines of no shit. Sherlock, how did you possibly guess, um but talking with him just led me to figure out some things about myself and gradually discover that I was, in fact gay and that I didn't like girls [00:06:00] in that way. Was there a moment in time where you were, like, in the class looking across a room And you notice a guy that you never expect that you are slightly attracted to? Oh, yeah, definitely. Um, but in my case, that guy happened to be my teacher. Yeah, I know. But in my defence, he he was quite young for a teacher. He was 23 and, um, he was teaching drama at the time. And, yeah, I just thought he was very, very [00:06:30] attractive. I don't want to say his name in case anyone might know him, but yes, I. I had a big crush on him for a while. So you never went for a denial period at all, did you? Well, I kind of did. Um, See, I had a bit of a complicated situation. I sort of came out of the closet to everyone but my mother and my family. I came out to my brother and my friends and stuff like that, but I got so [00:07:00] much flak for it. I just stopped talking about it and essentially went back into the closet. And everyone just kind of forgot, like, um the gay jokes were gone. They kept joking about girls and stuff like that. And I ended up getting a girlfriend. I use air quotes because you can't see me. But, um, I ended up getting a girlfriend for a month or two until I just decided. Fuck this. I am who I am to quote the famous song and yeah, [00:07:30] I just didn't want to keep lying anymore. That that's quite interesting. I've never actually heard someone that came out and then went back and yeah, it was a weird situation. This was in Ireland and I was in quite a Catholic community. So there was a lot of negative stigma attached to being gay at the time. Well, at that age, rather just because they hadn't really experienced homosexuality for themselves. So they're going off notions that they might have received from their ministers [00:08:00] or their parents that it was just bad or something to make something to be made fun of. So you were born in Ireland. I was born in New Zealand, but in 2003, my brother and I moved over to Ireland to live with our mom. And then we moved back to New Zealand in September of 2008. So that's right. Back forward to it. Yeah. So you went to high school in Ireland? Yes. I went to a Catholic school called Saint Patrick's Grammar [00:08:30] School, which is essentially an all boys school until the final year when they started letting girls in. And it was an interesting experience. Um, it's definitely a hell of a lot better than the school I went to in Masterton. And there was a writer. A range of subject choices except religious education was compulsory. And I didn't like that just because I'm not very I'm not a very Catholic person. Yeah, and not just say you don't really want to be forced upon with religion. Yeah, exactly. [00:09:00] Yeah. So you came out twice? In a way. Yes. Essentially, um, I when I when I say coming out, I, um I just would start saying it to some friends the first time. I mean, I'd just start slipping it into conversations with friends, and they generally, like, pick up on it. I don't think I ever actually had to say I'm gay or I like boys. I would just say certain things that would imply it. And then they would say [00:09:30] it. Kind of like, uh, I noticed that this was it was a cute guy over there or something like that. Yeah, something like that. And, yeah, I essentially just got a lot of flak from it from certain people. And there was a period of time where I had a few major bullies over in Ireland and one bully. He never beat me up directly. What he would do is he would beat up anyone who talked to me. So I couldn't have friends inside of school hours for fear of them getting [00:10:00] beaten up. So I I was always quite isolated when it came to inside school. And so I just stopped talking about it in case it slipped out. And the word somehow got to him and his behaviour might escalate into something I didn't really want to deal with. That's that's kind of smart for a bully. You think about it. Yeah. Um, he was slightly psychotic. Um, he put up a video on Google videos, [00:10:30] and it was seven minutes of him tying down a cat he stole from his neighbourhood to this big piece of wood, tying each of its legs down to the corners and shooting it with a gun. A cat, a cat? Yes, he shot it with a gun. And that was that was disgusting. And he he expressed in class a desire to go into the Army, which I found hilarious to have practise, I suppose. Yeah, I do not, Uh, and [00:11:00] and I do not encourage people doing that at all. I just like to add No. Oh, God. Cats are like one of my favourite animals. And if I ever hear of anyone doing it again, I'm going to beat the shit out of them. I'm not the timid little, little scared kid I was when I was 12. Yeah, you gotta love the cat. Definitely. If you don't love cats, you don't have a soul. I keep staring into the microphone, part of it, expecting there to be a camera. I [00:11:30] get you. Yeah, it's like it's got a little face. Play with me upside down. Play with me. Maybe, but yeah, that was about French. Maybe Anyway, um So when you came back to New Zealand, what was that like for you? Um, it was quite difficult because, um, the reason we had to move back was because our mother had passed away. And, um, it was quite difficult adjusting to that fact when we were only 15. [00:12:00] But, um, yeah, we managed to get through it, and we started a new school. But the school we started was called Kota College. And that's not a very good school. Yeah, I'm looking away because I know what that school was like. Yes, Mako College is a very school to the listeners, and it's technically referred to as the dropout school of Masterton, where all the kids who cause trouble who can't be fucked doing any work, or we just can't afford [00:12:30] it go to school. And one of the things that really annoyed me about the school was the lack of dedication for discipline from the teachers. So, um, you so you came out in a way a third time. You were in New Zealand, weren't you? Well, yes, kind of. But for me, that wasn't really coming out. I'd gotten used to telling people so essentially it was merely telling my friends that I was gay, and, um, all of them took them. Took it quite [00:13:00] Well, except, um, one of my best friend's sisters she got after I told her I'm gay. She thought I was joking. And then when she finally realised I was actually telling the truth, her face just sort of dropped. And she was like, But I thought you were straight. And then for about 40 minutes afterwards, she goes around following me saying, But why? Why? Daniel and I just have to give, like, random reasons. Like, because I am. Because this is how I was born. And then [00:13:30] my principal was coming up to talk to either me or her. But he was looking at one of us, and then he was coming up behind her, and she didn't see him. And then she blurts out quite loudly. But why, Daniel? Why do you like men's asses? Yeah, and the principal got a very shocked expression on his face and just sort of turned around and walked off in the other direction. Oh, my [00:14:00] God. That's one of the best. Can I say that as a coming out story? Yeah. Yeah, that's the best coming out story I've ever heard. Well, yeah, it was pretty funny. That's fantastic. Um Did you ever went to any, um, LGBTI Q groups? Um, no, I didn't. I remember in Masterton there was a listing under Rainbow Youth for a group there, but I remember [00:14:30] ringing up rainbow youth and, um, they said, Oh, no, there isn't one. But we're more than happy to help you start one. And at the time, I was only 15, and I didn't really know what to do. So they said, Don't worry. We'll email you with some information and we'll call you back tomorrow and just give you some tips on how to get started. And I never heard from them again, which I suppose was both a blessing and a curse. Because while I was out at school, like if someone asked me if I was gay, I'd say yes and [00:15:00] keep walking. I didn't prefer to keep, like, drag attention to it. And if I was publicised as starting a rainbow youth or a QS A, um I know in my school that it would have brought me a lot more negative attention. Um, hell, in my final year when I was still just carrying on this cavalier approach of just answering Yes, I am. If anyone asked me if I was gay, there was this annoying year nine, and I guess he was homophobic or something. But I'm pretty sure he's gay, too. He was just trying to [00:15:30] act like a homophobe to try and divert the suspicion of himself. But I was sitting in the library minding my own business, completing an English project when the little bastard starts throwing shit at me. And, um, it went from pencils to random balloons to PS rulers and stuff like that. And then, just as he was about to throw a fully like heavy metal stapler at my face, the music teacher, Miss Kerry, she grabbed his arm [00:16:00] and said, What the hell are you doing? Put that down And, um, she pulled him aside and you could quite clearly hear her because she was quite angry. And she's like, Why are you doing that to Daniel? And he responded with But miss, he deserves it. He's a faggot, and I remember well, I actually remember laughing first because I was thinking to myself, Wow, if there's anything, there's some misplaced anger here because you're definitely not the straightest year nine I've ever seen But, um Then [00:16:30] I just got kind of angry about how that sort of image is ingrained at such a young age that there's so many people who just assume faggots are bad. And, yeah, I assume there was some screaming afterwards from the teachers. Yes, there was, um he never tried to tried to throw stuff at me again, but, um, he always gave me these ugly glas and stuff across still little little bastard. Oh, yes. I don't think anything's [00:17:00] gonna change that, but, um, yeah, he didn't bother me. So did you have any support of your kind of? My friends were quite supportive. And, um, there were quite a few of my friends who were really happy for me that I just didn't want to lie anymore. They were just like, Oh, yeah. Um oh, I didn't realise you were gay, but yeah, I'm happy that you're admitting it, and you're not hiding it. But, um, I accidentally came out to my father, which is a bit of a weird [00:17:30] story. What happened was, um I used to talk to my dad online through a messenger, and, um, his screen name was Gary, which is his first name and I was also talking to my friend Gareth using the same programme at the same time. And when I meant to type in Gareth's window, didn't you know I'm gay? I accidentally typed it into Gary's window. Oh dear. And yes, that didn't end well. He he logged off for six hours and came back on saying, [00:18:00] Oh, don't worry, it's only a phase. The impact was slightly lessened because it was I was in Ireland. It was through a messenger, but yes, it was still a bit upsetting, though. The next time I logged on with him, he asked me Oh, how are you? What are you doing? And I ended up saying, Oh, just watching my wife and kids and I don't know whether to take this as offensive or a joke or maybe a mix of the two. But then he just said, LOL, you know you'll never have any. It could, [00:18:30] but knowing my father, he could be trying to be funny or it could be insulting. You don't know it's a two way street. He probably both at the same time. I would not be surprised. Probably just see what happened so When was your first youth group that you attended? My first youth group was actually here in Palmerston North. I attended uni for the first time in about June. No, not June. [00:19:00] Um, it would have been. March was the first time I attended uniq and that was run by, um, my now good friend Seth. And that was quite good because it introduced me to some people, et cetera. But I really wished I'd been introduced to some like a gay group earlier. Just because it's it's easier to talk to some people about about certain things. And even though you might have really supportive straight friends, there are just some things that are really hard to talk to them about. [00:19:30] And the one thing I do regret was not learning about the club scene or the gay scene in general from a youth group, because when I turned 18, the first thing I did was go up to the gay bar here in Palmerston North, which goes by club Q. And I kind of jumped into the deep end without knowing about it. Like the first time I was there, I was sort of cowering in the corner and I didn't know anybody. And, um, the bartender was trying to make me feel welcome. [00:20:00] And that's where I met one of my friends, Beth. And then, um, my friend Matt came over and introduced himself to me. And like, Oh, we've talked on Facebook. We used to text and got the ball, roll the ball, the ball rolling. And, um yeah, and through Matt, I was introduced to Beth, and through Beth, I was introduced to my friends, Anna and then so on and so forth until I've got some really close knit friends here that are like a second [00:20:30] family. So So, have you been in relationships before? Yes, I have. My last relationship was January 2009, and it lasted for No, wait. Sorry. It would have been January 2009, lasting for maybe five months. And, um, I have not [00:21:00] been in a relationship since then. Unfortunately. Well, fortunately, unfortunately, it depends on how you look at it, but, um, yes. I haven't had a partner since then. Why is that? Um, a lot of reasons. Just lack of compatibility and trust issues. I suppose. Um, my first boyfriend was semi abusive, and that sort of left its toll on me. And I'm not like the the greatest personality anyway, because, um, [00:21:30] I had a bit of AAA. I don't want to say abusive childhood, but a very, very shitty childhood. And it's left me with, um, issues about, uh, dominance and and, um oh, what's the word? Oh, it's on the tip of my tongue, Um, trust dominance and sort of and, well, no, it's kind of ties into trust the fact [00:22:00] that there should be something other than they're not like in with my dad. It was He should be nicer. He should be calmer and a partner like expectations. Yeah, it was like I had realist, I Well, I thought I had realistic expectations, and, um, because they weren't being met, I sort of, like delved deeper into a little hole. And I'm still a bit like everyone has their own scars and their own bad [00:22:30] qualities. But I have to say my worst one is probably, um if things get a bit too intense for me, I just kind of burrow away into a whole. Um, if someone's getting very, very intense very fast, uh, I feel bad for doing it, but I just sort of cease or contact because I can't really bring myself to do anything more. Yeah, so you meet other people through, like, closet space, right? Yep. Um, that's where I first met a few friends. And [00:23:00] from there I've met friends of friends and friends. And yeah, it's it's the whole two degrees of separation. And, um, in New Zealand, everyone just sort of knows everyone. And that's sort of true in the gay community, too. Um, but I've actually made some really good friends off dating websites such as NZ dating et cetera. Um, I remember I was a regular message boarder on there, and a few of the other regular message boards added me as a friend on Facebook, and when I hadn't met any of them before [00:23:30] and the first time I've been up to Auckland for years, this message board who I never met before, invited me around to his place for dinner, invited all the other message boards and cooked this wonderful three course meal is sort of welcome to Auckland and nice to meet you thing. It was really, really nice. And he is an amazing cook and unexpected as well. Yeah, it was so it was so friendly and so nice. And he's still I still consider him a good friend to the staff. So, um, what is your definition of virginity? [00:24:00] Well, that's a tough one. physical virginity, I. I sort of had different. I sort of have different interpretations because I think physical virginity is the act of penetration. I don't care if it's gay, I know or straight with vaginal vaginal, but, um, I think, um, that is physical virginity. But then there's also emotional [00:24:30] virginity because there's this aspect of there's always the whole sort of, like, free falling thing. Um, when you're opening up that personally for the first time, and I think emotional like a true emotional losing of your virginity involves being with someone that you really care about and that you really trust deeply and that you're both in a very good maybe not even relationship. You could be like very good friends who are doing this. But you need to have [00:25:00] a very good sort of communication and trust between you two. So, yeah, I think there's a difference between physical and emotional virginity. Well, thank you for the interview. Um, no problem.

IRN: 660
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_name_withheld_9.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004027
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089321
TITLE: [name withheld 9] - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Closet Space; Palmerston North; Q12 (series); anime; arts; bicurious; bullying; coming out; family; friends; homophobia; identity; parents; queer straight alliance (QSA); reading; relationships; religion; school; sex; youth
DATE: 12 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Manawatū, Manawatu, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast [name withheld] talks about being young and bicurious in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm right. How are you? I'm good. Hello. Anonymous anonymous person today I am. OK, so can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Um, Mr Mrs, Let's go with. It's very obscure. Um, I'm in my last year of high school and I live in Palmerston North. It's a pretty average place. I've lived here my entire life. It's kind of boring. Kind of Wanna [00:00:30] get out, go somewhere else. Um, yeah. I'm thinking of doing a bit of travel next year because I can't really decide if I want to go to university or what to do at university. So I don't know. I like art and Japanese. I paint a lot. Um, yeah, it's pretty much about me and, um, likes and hobbies. Um, yeah. Um, I read a lot. Um, I pretty much live in the library, [00:01:00] and I pretty much have a library in my house. I'm surprised I didn't see you like on Tuesday or anything, because I was there a lot on Tuesday. Oh, yeah. No Tuesdays. I stay at school to do work because I'm I'm a hard core study. I have loads of stuff to do by the end of the year. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, what is your sex? I am female. Do you know? So you were here last week for QS? A. So you [00:01:30] know what gender identity is? I couldn't stay for the whole thing, but I have a general idea. So what is your gender? Gender identity? Um, female. I identify as female. Yes. You know, you know what it means. Um, what is your sexuality? Um, that's a bit of a tough one. Really? Um, there's a bit of a long story behind that. Should I go into the long story? Um, [00:02:00] a couple of years ago. Um, I, um I had a close friend and she was female, and things developed a bit, and I realised I was attracted to her, and we started dating. Um, and we actually went out for a year and a half, I think, Um, and after a few months, we sort of like became, you know, public with [00:02:30] it, and other people found out and stuff like that, and I think sort of from that, um I don't know. It just sort of came about everybody. Sort of. You know how people label you and they're like, Oh, so you're gay. And I'm like, Well, if by that you mean I'm attracted to girls, then I suppose, Yeah. And so, um, I sort of just went along with that because I didn't really care too much. What people? Um said, [00:03:00] um, but lately I've been I don't know. I've been thinking about it a lot more, Um, and like, wondering if that's actually true. Like, I know I am attracted to girls, but I'm not sure whether I'm attracted to guys at all as well. So quite quite curious, I suppose if you want to label it, yeah, if you could label it, that would probably be the best way to label it. Probably at this [00:03:30] stage at this stage, I I'm just figuring out I go pretty much no. OK. And what is your culture identity? Um, I don't really Ah, that's really difficult. I don't really have a culture. If that makes sense, I've always felt like everybody else. All of my friends around me, they have more culture than me. Um, I have some Maori friends and they have all [00:04:00] of their customs and their traditions and all of this and and like, culture is it encompasses so much You've got your food and your customs and your traditions and and just language as well. And I'm just I don't know, I'm a Kiwi, but that doesn't really mean a lot. I don't mean it doesn't really to me. We don't have anything special to us. I don't know. Mm. I don't know if that helps at all. So, uh, what is [00:04:30] your, uh, expression like, do you express yourself in a masculine way? Feminine way? Dark way? Uh, Tom Boy, I'm not actually sure. I was just talking to, um, some people before, and, um, I mentioned how I act very differently around different groups of people. Um, so I don't know. Sometimes I guess I act more in a tomboyish sort of a way. Um, God knows, I've been called butch enough times. [00:05:00] Um, but I don't know, um, but other times, I guess I can be quite feminine and sort of It's like in between. I guess so. I don't know. I'm not I'm a bit vague, I guess. Yeah, I think we all sort of act how I feel at the time. And however that comes across. I guess we all have our moments. Yeah. So when you, uh, got attraction to the skill was that the first time you [00:05:30] realised that you're attracted to the same gender? Um, it was the first time that I was aware of it, I think. And then afterwards, I started to question other things. Like thoughts that I'd had before. And I'm like, Was that? Yeah, I don't know. But it was the first time that I was really aware of it. What about before it? Sorry about before it. Um What? What do you mean? Like, um, [00:06:00] were you attracted to guys before you had that? That's one of the things that I started, like questioning, um, a lot because I went back and I thought about all of the people that I'd had, like, crushes on or sometimes they were fictional characters. Often they were fictional characters like, um, manga characters, anime characters. And if they were guys, they would always be quite effeminate. And, um, like, yeah, as [00:06:30] anime characters are. But, um, I suppose Yeah, I just took that as sort of another sign. Just like everybody has a Yeah, I don't know. It's like a lot of people have anime finishes in a way, not saying that you do have. Ah, and you know, a few people. Yeah. It's like a role playing, isn't it? More than you think. Anyway, um, off, we're going off topic. Um, actually, that's one of my hobbies. Um, but not the dodgy kind of role playing like the actual kind of [00:07:00] role playing. What type of anime do you like? Oh, that's too broad A question. Um, I watch any kind of anime. Really? Unless it's too confusing. You know how anime can just go crazy and, like, you don't There's no exactly, um, pretty much anything other than that. If it's got a decent lot, I'll watch it. Yeah, but something happened out of nowhere. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, um, [00:07:30] so are you out of the closet about being attracted to females? Um, my mom walked in on me and my girlfriend. We weren't even doing anything like dodgy. I suppose maybe sitting too close is probably what she got from that. And then she started asking me questions. Um, which I did my best to avoid. Um but it came out anyway. Um, and I always felt, like, quite comfortable [00:08:00] around my friends and stuff. So they knew pretty much from the beginning. I think, um, so pretty much. Yeah. Hm. Yeah. So although I haven't told my dad I, I don't live with him, though, so you'll send me out pretty much well to everyone accept that side of my family. Um, they're quite religious and I. I don't see them a lot because I don't live with my dad. Um, but I'm not entirely sure how it would go down. [00:08:30] Yeah, he's just edgy about it. Yeah, pretty much like, Oh, dear Dad, there's not much I don't know. I don't really feel like there's too much point getting into it because I don't see him that often. Like I can just put it off, and that's fine. So when you told your friends, what were the general reactions to it? Um, one of my friends was offended because I thought that she wouldn't approve because she was religious. Um, what did you tell me earlier? [00:09:00] But she she was like, what? What? Even I wouldn't I would never Yeah, she would never be against it or, you know, drop me as a friend because of it. Um, and all of my other friends, they were just really supportive. They didn't really care either way. I suppose so. You head of a support system? I guess so. Yeah. Yeah. So do you come to space that often? Um, usually every week. Except when I have loads and loads of work to do or, [00:09:30] you know, you pretty much live at school. What's your favourite subjects at school? Um, well, up until last year, it was definitely art. And then my art teacher left in boys high. Um, and she's like cheating on the school. It's It's true. It's really it's really like she's abandoned us and just ditched us for other people. But, um, and this year, I haven't got such a great teacher. Um and so I'm struggling a bit with that, but [00:10:00] I still enjoy it. Um, I'm sort of getting to that point where you get in year 13, that you are just sick of everything, and you want it to be over already. Um, but if I had to say, probably my favourite subject at the moment would be photography. Um, but yeah. So when you leave school, what do you want to do? Oh, that's such a hard question. Um, go go to, like, Auckland University study art or something. Not so much. Not a university. [00:10:30] Wellington University considered going to messy Wellington for a while, um, to study fine arts because I have a creative art school, and it's quite, um, it's well known and everything, Um, but both because of finances. Um, and because I didn't think I was ready to go next year. Um, I put that off for now. Um, so at this stage, [00:11:00] I'm working next year. So we're having more have a break, have a break from studying. And I think that will be really good for me because I just need a break and not smacking your head against a cocky wall kind of thing. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. So, um, you have been in relationships before, Obviously. How many relationships? Um, just the one. Just the one serious one. Yeah. Are you still currently with that? No, we we broke up after about a year and a half, so yeah. Would you like to tell us about that relationship? [00:11:30] Um, we started out as really good friends. Um, so it was like a good beginning. Yeah, um, we're still friends now. We, um just don't talk of all that often, but we We're still on good terms. Um, we Yeah, we were good friends. Um, she's a couple of years older than me. Um, and we had mutual friends as well. So we hung out quite a bit. Um, and we had common interests and stuff reading, writing stuff like that. Um, [00:12:00] and I think we actually started out. It sounds kind of cheesy, um, writing letters. Um um, and we were just, like, sort of sneak litters to each other every now and then. And it was really fun because nobody really writes these days, Not physically. Um, and in the process of that, I guess we sort of found out a lot about each other. And [00:12:30] I know things just developed. Yeah, pretty much to be a cliche. Um, yeah, we went out for a year and a half, I and I know we're good for about a year of that. And then, um, because she moved to a different city. Um, distance sort of took its toll, and then it didn't work out. Sorry. [00:13:00] Did it break up in a mutual way. Yeah, um I mean, I was really upset about it, but I was the one who brought it up and breaking up in the first place because I knew it wasn't working anymore with distance and everything. Like, it's only two hours from here to Wellington. But when you can't see someone, it's just Yeah, OK, it makes it tough. Yeah. So, uh, how do you meet other people in the LGBTI Q [00:13:30] community? Um, I come to closet space for one thing. Um, that's a big, big point there. Yeah, um, actually, it was quite hard to find it to begin with. Like I heard about it. And then I had no idea how to contact anybody or where it was or how to get to it or anything like that. Pretty much. Pretty much. It's not like they advertise in the in the bar here. The bar that we're into it looks like what a gay bar would look like. Pre lawful. [00:14:00] It's pretty, pretty low. You know how, um, Homosexual law reform law came into place in 1986. Not so much. And at 1986 it was made legal for a male to have sex, meaning that we we're allowed to be gay. Before that, it was it was illegal. So I guess clubs, Although, of course, [00:14:30] it wasn't legal for women because nobody could possibly imagine what they could do with each other. Well, that's what that's what Queen Victoria thought. Yeah, exactly. So that's why that was never Yeah. So this is what a club would look like if, um, prelaw form. Quite secret. Underground. Kind of not really underground, but nobody really knows where it is. Yeah, no one knows where it is. Advertisement. Yeah. Got a few minutes? Yeah. Um, So yeah. So [00:15:00] have you ever been abused because of you A six year old, too? Um mhm. Not so much. Uh, I don't know. I had a little bit of bullying when I sort of came out at my school. Um, and me and my girlfriend, like, were in public together. Um, and you know, the teasing name calling shit like that, Um, pretty immature stuff from young people. Um, a couple of times, like I was walking home [00:15:30] from school and I got stuff stones thrown at me and stuff like that but I sort of just ignored it and it went away. Probably not the best way to deal with things, but it It Yeah, got past it. They did too, I suppose. Literally. Oh, thank you for the interview. OK, thanks.

IRN: 659
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_logan.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004026
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089320
TITLE: Logan - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Closet Space; Manawatū; Palmerston North; Q12 (series); bisexual; camp; coming out; cooking; dance; drag; family; friends; gay; homophobia; identity; kicked out; performance; pornography; relationships; sex; social; support; transphobia; venues; youth
DATE: 12 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Manawatū, Manawatu, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Logan talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? Good. That's good. What's your name? Logan. Ok, Logan, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Um, I work full time. I'm 22 and I live with one of my best friends and a volunteer for the gay bar. Oh, you volunteer for the gay bar? Yes. Is this the bar that we're in right now? Yes. I looking at the sky bar. [00:00:30] It looks like, um, something that you would see pre-law reform. It is a bit dark and out of the way, but it kind of has to be. Yeah, it's very underground. It's above ground. It's two stories. Well, yeah, but it has to be. It needs to kind of be out of the way for it to be and remain a safe and more private place. Yeah. So, um, what [00:01:00] is your likes and hobbies? My likes and hobbies. I like to dance. I like to dress up, and currently I've set up a swing in my garage to darts around. And when I'm home alone. Yeah, a swing made out of sheets tied to a horizontal pillar. Um, you just have to start to kind of realise it, um, and just hang with their friends road trips or [00:01:30] mundane shit. Really? Yeah, sometimes, yes. So what is your original sex male? What is your gender identity? Male. What is your sexuality? Gay, but potentially bi curious for the right person? Potentially. Right. Um so did you went to the QS a last week? No, no, no, no, no. [00:02:00] Um, what is your culture? Identity? Ethnicity? White, White? Yeah. Australian and New Zealand. And, um, how do you express yourself? Masculine, feminine tomboy dyke. That's females. I twink It depends who I'm around because different people bring out different parts of me. Um, but for the majority, it's [00:02:30] quite camp. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, when did you realise that you were gay? I started questioning at about 13. That's what you mean That you had, like, the light bulb moment. And you were like, I'm attracted to that boy across the road. I'm attracted to Timmy. Now it's more from looking at porn at 13 years of age and discovering that I was looking at the men a lot [00:03:00] more than I was looking at. The women did. You went through a period where you think it was a bisexual. I went two years as what I call questioning, and I didn't tell anyone. And I came out as bisexual at 15. And then I just said I was gay at 17. Because that's more for how camp I am. It was more believable. And it was just easier, mainly. Yeah. So did you work for a denial [00:03:30] period? I think that would have been the first two years. Yeah. And then you kept a secret a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. So are you fully out? Yes. Yeah. To everybody. Yes. What was that, like coming out of the closet? Um, well, it was kind of just like I told a few people, and then from there, it kind of got passed on to more people. And then it just got to the stage where I just lost track of her new. So I just fucking [00:04:00] Yeah, I was just like, this was long before Facebook. Um, my It would have been before MySpace. I think MySpace was before, but, um, it was just kind of like a Oh, yeah. I just admit it to anyone. It's not my fault. Not my problem. Everybody is sad. Yeah, your response is not my fault. Who was the first person you told my best friend at the time? Tessa, What was [00:04:30] your reaction? I know, and that was pretty much the reaction from everyone else. How about your parent? Um, I was kicked out for a while. You were kicked out. Yeah. So I moved in with my friend for a couple of weeks, and then there were a series of meetings with me and my mom and counsellors. I ended up going back home eventually. Yeah. Yeah. So [00:05:00] was there a bit of an argument before Yes or what? Sort of things were said, Um, this was a while ago, but she just Yeah, it was just disgusting and apparently quite shocking to her. But she's she would have known for a lot longer, because ever since I was, like, seven, she would ask me and just sit down and be like, Are you gay? Because if you are, I just need to know. And I just had no idea what that meant. So I just said No [00:05:30] III. I know. Yeah. So after that, what? Um, after that, what happened? Um, so I moved out for a bit and then came back in for a bit and it was just quite on edge. Um, she had a bit of a drinking problem, so and I was quite. I was getting more and more confident in who I was and deciding [00:06:00] what I wanted and what I didn't want and try more outrageous clothing and things. And her nickname for me was transgender cunt face, which sticks with me till now. Um and now I am a drag queen and she buys me false eyelashes and happily shows my pictures to all her friends. So now it's a bit different. Now it's completely different. Um, she's [00:06:30] kind of grown out of that, and she's just kind of realised. It's like, Well, this is still my son. I love him anyway, and it's kind of like the best of both worlds having a son and a daughter as you do. So when did that moment happened? When um, she did the whole um realising that he's still my son? Um, well, I would have always She she would. She would always knew, [00:07:00] obviously, but it was just kind of hard as like how? Because you have to understand from the parents' point of view like it's quite tough for them, as it's as to almost as tough for the child who's questioning and coming out and going through all the bullying. But now the parent is gonna also suffer the bullying and also has to kind of mourn for their son. And because [00:07:30] that's not who they're gonna be, who they imagined and that they're not gonna get the grandchildren as they had planned. And it's not. It's a completely new life planned out for their son, and they have to realise one. And they kind of understand what they're gonna have to deal with as well. And it's just it wouldn't be nice for anyone, but she started to actually get, like, to be more my friend than anything else when I was [00:08:00] about, uh, 17. 18, and then it didn't actually fully work out until I was about 1920. Hm? Did you have a moment where you didn't forgive her for the things that she did? Yeah, I've had a few, but then mine and my [00:08:30] mum's life story goes way before my own sexuality story. So I there's already a lot of things on her that I can't. I can't say that you're the bad person when she's had a hard time as well. Like, it's like a two way street car. Yeah, like she may have been real rude and hurtful [00:09:00] and things and may have led me to do things that I shouldn't have. But her response is not my fault. And she's fully entitled to that. All right, so, um, you have a support system, don't you? I have a huge support system. You have your own little fan club? Practically. I know they're incredible. I love them. Um, it's like your [00:09:30] group. Yeah, I don't actually see them all that often, so I think it might be a little bit misleading because they just get really excited when they do see me. Um, I take it you talk about my babies. Everybody's your babies. No, I've I've only got four babies. Um, what was the question? Um, you have a support system? Yes. Support system. Everyone needs a support system. And it's [00:10:00] it's not really a question of trying to extent that it can. You do? You do have a Yes, I do. Yeah. So you're Dragway Blades. I like that. There's actually originality of that because most of the drag queens are quite have, like a a sexual innuendo on it. Like, kind of like she need a good one. Or Clara, will my finger do what? She's from? Christchurch [00:10:30] testicle. And every so often, you get the whole roller blades. Roller blades. It's good. Yeah. Yeah. Especially in. Yeah. Yeah. So with the divine and Ruby dick and Vera Charles? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You just glam it up. Yeah. Yeah, the blades. So, have you been in relationships before? Not many. Not many. No. How many have you been in? [00:11:00] About for? Can you tell us about some? Um Well, I think the way to sum up all of them is that I was never really happy with any of them because I was never fully happy with myself because nothing to do with sexuality. It's just that I'm still young, and I still have [00:11:30] to figure out what I want for me to find what I wanted. You were ready for it. Yeah. So I Yeah, single happy. When was the last relationship? When? Yeah. Oh, it's like, fully fledged one. I have no idea. I don't really care. How long did the relationships last? Not very long. My longest was like two months. And it was just kind of like, I [00:12:00] just your breath clean cash. Um, it's just not really something that's ever kind of fallen into my lap. And I've never really beat myself up about it. It's whatever. What's the best you're gonna find in Palmers North anyway? I've already got myself. I can't. Anything from there is a grade, So I kidding. Um, [00:12:30] how do you meet people in the community? Um, you just you just find people. You just know people who know people and meet other people such as me knowing Daniel in the closet space operations that I would come across you and same thing, I go to another friend's house and they're like, Oh, this is my gay friend. Blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, girl story. [00:13:00] Um, you just they're easy to spot Generally, Um, they just yeah, just they just turn up, turn up. So you don't really look for them, don't you? You don't really look for other people that has come to you? No, like, it's just like I've got plenty of good people around me. as it is. And I don't really need to actively hunt for more when [00:13:30] it's kind of hard enough to spend my time with the people that I've already got. So I don't really care if I do find people that I meet and I've got great first impressions. Um, then chances are I'll probably find another way to catch up with them. Yeah, you're a busy boy then. Yeah. Yeah. So do you do anything else apart from being volunteering at the bar or drag queen? Um, well, yeah, Like working [00:14:00] full time. I've finished studying, um, that I've studied chef performing arts in hospital. Um, that's a That's a good mix. Performing arts. Yeah, Well, I I did performing arts first, and then I had to do because every actor makes Latos. And then it was just kind of like I got to do the chef and course just so I can feed myself. It's like I can perform, but you need to eat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:14:30] I. I meant to learn how to eat. Um well, I knew how to eat. I need to know how to cook. Um, and then other things. Like I'll do what I call straight shows. I'll do the like musicals at the Abbey and things, um, taking up ballet because I've got some friends that do that. So it's another way to socialise and have a good stretch and shit. My ankles are tough. Um hm. [00:15:00] I can't think. Yeah, just things turn up. You do them. What is your definition of virginity? Your own opinion. Hm. Like it's your personal opinion. I don't think I have an opinion. In a way, it's no, like no right or wrong answer. It's what you think of it. Well, our [00:15:30] A while ago, I used to have this, like, huge idea of virginity. And it's like, Well, you've got your boy virginity and you've got your girl virginity. Um, and then with boy virginity, you got two. Because you can have 62 ways. Um, so I can either be them or it could just I've never considered like, oral sex or mutual masturbation. Anything to lose a virginity. And it would have to be full of vaginal or anal intercourse [00:16:00] to take your V blades. Have you ever received any abuse or abusive behaviour because of your sexuality or gender identity learning like, Yes. You can write a book on it. I could. Good name an example. Um OK, I'll take you a couple of weeks back. I was at home, Um, [00:16:30] I was in my garage just listening to music and reading a book on my laptop, and some people came outside the garage and tried getting in, and I remained real quiet. They left and they came back with more and banging on the sides. And they knew that two gay people lived in the house, but they didn't know who we were. They just knew what we were. And they thought it was disgusting. And they wanted in while I was in there. So that was my latest one. That was It's just [00:17:00] stupid people that that's really Yeah, it was. Yeah. Well, thank you for the interview. Thank you. That's great.

IRN: 656
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_beth.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004025
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089319
TITLE: Beth - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Closet Space; Manawatū; Palmerston North; Q12 (series); abuse; cis female; coming out; dominatrix; drag; family; fire spinning; friends; homophobia; lesbian; marriage; marriage equality; music; nzdating. com; parents; performance; relationships; school; sex; sex work; single sex schools; support; violence; youth
DATE: 13 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Manawatū, Manawatu, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Beth talks about being young and lesbian in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm fantastic. Thank you. How are you? Fabulous. Absolutely fabulous. I'm glad to hear you're fabulous. So who are you? My name's Bethany. Bethany? Yes. Who? Who did you tell us? A little bit about yourself? A little bit about myself. Well, I'm 20. I'm really short. I have blue green eyes and long red hair. I like long walks on the beach. Um I? I don't know. I, like [00:00:30] long walks on short hairs. What about your personality? You're very Jo Jo. I didn't even know that was an English word. But it works. OK, Um I'm joking. I'm caring. I'm extremely kind. Generous. I give way too much for the people around me. I literally give everything I have to everyone. I. I could be like 100% broke. I'll go ask 20 bucks for my dad and give those people the person [00:01:00] who needs it. 20 bucks, Like I see any homeless person I see on the street I give money to. So it's just who I am and the bus as well. Oh, yeah, man. Absolutely. I. I am an aspiring musician, so I know how it feels to be a busker. What do you play? I don't play. I sing. What do you say? Um I sing blue and jazz, blues and jazz like [00:01:30] Hey, OK, yeah. It's kind of like, um you're singing your whole life, but you're saying nothing at the same time. Uh, well, my entire life is pretty much just me. I live my life every day I take every day as it comes. You know, I, I don't I don't box myself into being like This is my future. This is my past. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. This is who I am. My entire life can escalate from angry to sad to happy in one day I have It sounds like I've really been mood [00:02:00] swings, but that's not the case. Yeah, So you have likes and hobbies. My likes and hobbies are singing. Um, I'm currently opening a business. And do I have to Yeah, OK, we're going to be a dominatrix. At least be a dominatrix, but open to the men to digest, but no sex, because that's not what dominatrix is do. So if anybody in palmy was turning into, like, an advertisement video [00:02:30] video audio clip, it worked very well, so if anybody in palmy would like to be dominated, absolutely anybody can come like I'm not fussy. Any age, sexuality, gender, race, orientation, anything. Come, I'm just going to be like, Well, it all depends on what you want, but yeah, At the end of the night, they'll be spanked, and at the end, they will be spanked, and they will be happy about it. So I suppose that [00:03:00] can work. Oh, God, you're imagining it. Oh, no. So what else? Um, I'm a horse rider. I've been horse riding since I was five. I. I like to fire spin. I'm a fire spinner. Um, actually, it was just recently my birthday and I went to a fire spending event and it was amazing and wonderful. And everyone's so cool. Wow. Yeah. Wild is one way to put those people. Are they? Oh, wow. So what inspired you to become [00:03:30] a dominatrix? What inspired me? Well, I mean, I've been doing it personally for about four years, and it just kind of I was sitting down in my room one day and I was just talking to my flatmate, and I was like, Well, you know, it's something I enjoy doing. There's nothing wrong with it. Like being a dominatrix prostitute or anything like that is the oldest profession in the world. So I know it's still sticking around. So it's like, Well, and it's legal in New Zealand. It's legal in New Zealand, so there's nothing wrong with it and, like I'm not having sex with my clients. So it's not [00:04:00] like, you know, unless I pay big bucks and I mean Mother fucking big bucks. But I mean, big bucks. Um, yeah, I suppose it was more along the lines of Just like I just want people to experience their fantasies like I have I love just like it sounds bad, but I love sex. I love sex. It's such an intriguing and passionate thing. It's like humans will go to any means to get it any means [00:04:30] at all, including prostitution and dominatrix, which is why I was like, Well, if if people are at the desperate measures like I had someone come up to me the other day and go, I've always kind of dreamed of being belted by a woman, and I was like, That's so normal. Like people, people assume that you don't. It's not normal and you should hide it. And oh, my God. People will judge me. But that's not the case. People should just, like, let loose and be free. Did you watch that 2020 episode on dominatrix? Yeah, I did. I mistress Mariah. [00:05:00] Oh, my gosh. She is a legend. Like I've I've heard so much about her. Um, I'm actually talking to one of the other dominatrix is in Auckland. Mistress Venom. She's really cool. And, um, we've been emailing for a bit, and she was giving me some business advice and stuff and she asked if I lived in Auckland. If I wanted to be her assistant. No, no, not an assistant. Um, apprentice. So she asked if I want to do an apprenticeship If I was living in Auckland and I was like, I don't live in Auckland, but I would so love that. That was just quite I've never heard of something like that before. [00:05:30] Apprentice Dominator. Absolutely. It's It's so common. Like my flatmate is my P A. I'm not going to say her name, but, um, she's like, she's my she's my P A And I wouldn't know what to do without her, so I could never leave her behind. You know, it's just you can become a PAAP a. They could get interesting. Yeah. No, she's Yeah, it's just there will be no spanking for her. No, no, it's a new contract. No spanking, no whipping, nothing, [00:06:00] but yeah, no, it's been it's been an adventure trying to set up this business. I had a business seminar yesterday with IRD so much to learn in such a short amount of time. It was good, though. It was good. Yeah. So, um, what is your sex? I'm a female. I am a girl. And what is your gender identity? Do you know what gender identity is? I do know what gender identity is. I'm I'm perfectly happy in my gender. Like I'm I'm pretty much just as female always will be. So, [00:06:30] unless, like I do, I am a drag queen, though, or drag king. I'm a drag. Yeah, my, um but that's just for fantasy and fun. That's that's more along the lines of Yeah, just just fun stuff. Like I just have a blast with it. I, um my drag name is Clin. Tolin. Yeah. C to a friend of mine. Logan came up with it so funny. He was like, you know, you should be C to And I was like, You know, it's funny. My parents are gonna name me Clint if I was a boy. Well, that [00:07:00] works. So, um, what is your sexuality? My sexuality? I'm gay. I'm as gay as I come. I'm actually sitting here in rainbow pyjamas because I wear rainbow rainbow cupcake pyjamas at the moment talking about domination. Hey, that's interesting. Um, So what is your cultural identity? My cultural identity? Question marks like as in Like what? What culture do you like to identify with? Oh, I'm happy. I'm a happy Oh, my God. I'm a happy happy I [00:07:30] have the whole year man thing going on as you well know. And how do you express yourself in a masculine, feminine tomboy? I see, Like with my that that brings in the whole dominatrix thing again. My femininity comes through completely in dominatrix. I wear corsets, freely, underwear, lingerie, all that kind of stuff in the dungeon. I'm not a leather dominatrix. I'm a classy dominatrix with air quotes there, um, with the with bunny rabbits. This cute [00:08:00] um, but like in everyday life, I wear fat pants and a snap back, you know, just kind of crazy, Crazy hippie. I mean, the hippies don't normally wear snap bags, but I'm gonna have dreads soon, so I'm looking forward to art a dominatrix with dreads. Yeah, it would be cool, man. A dominatrix, feminine dress dominatrix with dreads. I. I can imagine it can work, though. Yeah. So, um, when did you first realise about you being lesbian? Well, I was actually 11. Um, [00:08:30] I lost my virginity to a girl before I before I sleep with men and I lost my virginity to a girl at a very young age. And, um, I kind of just always liked women. There'd never been a kind of an issue with it, and I Yeah, I guess I was just I was really young. And because my dad was around the acting community when I was a kid. So it was Yeah, he was a theatre guy. So, you know, being gay wasn't any problem to me, so I just kind of [00:09:00] was like, Ah, oh, girls are sexy. Oh, OK. Oh, that's yeah, that's different. I was like, Oh, tits. Oh, I cannot look at tits on the TV, though. I get so embarrassed, I just look away. Look, look away. I actually I actually hide my face. It's really funny. I just Can I do it on V and movies and stuff like that? But anything else? I'm sweet. It was it. So it's just TV and movies. I'm like, you know, II. I remember watching this in the interview with Will Smith, and [00:09:30] he was, I think it was Independence Day. He was watching with Prince Charles and when I think there was, like a sex scene in it or something. And, um, his bodyguards tapped Prince Charles on the shoulder when the sex scene was coming up and Prince Charles just looked just put his hand over his eyes until actually finished. And then the boy touched his shoulder again and he starts watching the movie again. Really, [00:10:00] that's funny. I mean, I guess that that's the whole English upbringing, though. You kind of like that. The the royal Yeah, definitely a royal royalty in there. Yeah, absolutely. It's just like the Queen would probably not want exactly a lap to answer. But I think the queen's very down to earth. Really? II I can imagine she would be. I like how it's gone from dominatrix to politics, but not politics. Royal family. Did you watch the, um, royal family wedding? Yes. My friends decided to play a drinking game. [00:10:30] So I ended up leaving. And I was like, because I, I don't drink. So I'm just, like, drink water, drink water and tea. It would be good for your kidneys. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not allowed to drink caffeine at all, so Yeah, water and tea is my green tea. Green tea is my go to I'm not allowed that because it's got caffeine in it. Yeah, but, um no green tea is my go to It's like my little Saviour. If I'm feeling stressed out, I have a a cup of green tea and I'm sweet. So [00:11:00] but, um, anyway, anyway, um, when did you come out of the closet? Um, I broke up with my boyfriend. Um uh, who's actually a really good friend of mine. Um, I broke up with him, and we've been together for a year and a half, and I kind of just like towards the end of our relationship I've been thinking about it a lot more. Kind of like, Oh, you know, I'm not really interested in, you know, sleep with me and, you know, it's not really my cup of tea. It's not really a cup of my green tea, but, um, [00:11:30] by the end of it, I was just kind of like, Well, you know, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna try it. And I slept with another girl and I was like, Yeah, that's it for me. I'm I'm gay. And I told my mom pretty much the night after it happened. I was just came out to her and she was like, Well, if this could be a phase, But if you're 100% sure, then I've got your back. My parents were really supportive. I told my dad and he was so good about it. He was so, so good about it. And [00:12:00] the rest of my family is pretty good about it, too. And my extended family are sweet with her. My cousin James actually calls me Dick all the time. He's like, Hey, dike, how's it going? I'm like, Fuck you. Oh, he's a good cousin. So he had a big support system. Yeah, I had a really strong support system. I got really good friends who have supported me and anyone who didn't support me. I was just like, Well, what is the point in talking? So, um, you've been in relationships. Obviously. I dated a lot. I've dated, um, more transgenders [00:12:30] than I have women. Actually, I have dated a lot more transgenders. Um, I've dated three transgenders and two women. So, um, since I've come out and I'm only 20 I came out at 16. So it's only been about four years, so about five people. Yeah. How long were they? Average? Um, averaging between 3 to 8 months. So kind of in between those practically got engaged. Oh, well, actually, I was engaged. I was engaged, [00:13:00] Uh, when I was 17, Um, I was in love with a girl and we were mad about each other. It was crazy. It was really We were engaged after three weeks, and I gave her an engagement ring and everything. It was serious. Absolutely 100% serious, and it just fell apart. Unfortunately, we were together for five months, but like it was, I guess it was just the rush of a like she was my first serious girl relationship, so I thought I was going to spend the rest of my life with her. You know what lesbians are like? It's like the same with, [00:13:30] uh, with, um, gay teenagers. Absolutely. Like, you think you're gonna be together forever, and sometimes it works out, and sometimes it doesn't. You just gotta You gotta keep get back on that horse. Yeah. You gotta get back on the horse, bro. You gotta get back on the horse, man. That's a different situation. Yeah, that's a different situation. Best reality is not really with it. Oh, no. Oh, Maybe we should restart the interview just from here. No, um, [00:14:00] where was I? So how do you meet other people in the LGBTI Q community? I suppose it's normally through friends. Or, um, I used to go to the youth group closet space here. And I met my ex-girlfriend through there, and she was pretty cool. And, um, yeah, it was It's been It's been an adventure doing all this I. I didn't think my life would turn out like this. I didn't think I would be this kind of free about it either. Especially [00:14:30] with the whole marriage thing coming up in in Parliament at the moment. I'm doing the petitioning tomorrow. It is Saturday, and it is Saturday. We're doing it. Um, sorry it is Saturday. We're doing it. Not Friday. It's not. It's not Friday. It's Saturday. Sorry, darling. I told him like, Yeah, she should come hang out with you on Friday. You better. I'll expect it. You drag me from the rope or No, um, [00:15:00] we were Oh, yeah. LGBT Q. I, um Yeah, I guess I just meet them through friends and yeah, dating sites. Yeah. Dating sites is a big one. I mean, I've met quite a few of my friends, actually. One of my my my, my most recent exgirlfriend, um, I met through into dating, and, um, she's lovely. She's really cool. She's 27 and she's Yeah, she's really nice. She's, um She's trouble, as I do as [00:15:30] I do. Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, what is your definition of virginity? My definition of virginity. I suppose it's That's actually a really good question. I've never thought about that before. My definition of virginity, I suppose, would probably be the person that you want to sleep with. It's the person that you love and cherish. Except I didn't really love and cherish them. They were my childhood friend, but it doesn't matter. But, um, you can love a friend like, Yeah, exactly. But, um, lose your virginity [00:16:00] to a friend in a friendly type way. Um, yeah, I suppose it would just be kind of Yeah. Just who you wanna lose it to. It's not about. It's not about penetrative sex or anything like that. It's who you want to lose it to. Yeah. So I lost it to at a very young age, like I said, but I the person I lost it to is still a very valued friend of mine whom I love dearly. So yeah. So, um, last question. [00:16:30] What? Have you ever experienced or, um, any abuse or abusive behaviour because of your sexuality or your gender identity? Oh, yeah. I was beaten up a lot through high school. I got beaten up a lot through high school. I, um, had my head shut down toilets and stuff like that. It was It was difficult at the start when I first came out because I told one person. And then suddenly the whole school knew and I went to an all girls school, so people were like face, but, um yeah, but not [00:17:00] since I left high school. Have I really experienced anything? I have the occasional Oh, what a lesbian, Blah. And I'm like, Oh, go away. I'll bugger off. Go sleep with your sock. Well, thank you for the interview. You're very welcome.

IRN: 655
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_emma.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004024
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089318
TITLE: Emma - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Japan; Manawatū; Palmerston North; Taranaki; anxiety; bisexual; coming out; dominatrix; family; friends; sex; sex work; social anxiety; support; travel; youth
DATE: 13 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Manawatū, Manawatu, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Emma talks about being young and bisexual in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? Good. That's good. Who are you? Emma. Hello, Emma. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Um, I'm 20. I'm taking a break from study by playing. Playing? No. I mean, like, I was a student, and now I'm taking a break for medical reasons. And what do you What do you do? And I'm working. I'm training for a job as a personal assistant. Oh, and what is [00:00:30] that personal assistant for? To do? Interesting. How did you get into that? Um, my friend set me up. I'm just a personal assistant. I don't do anything in the dungeon. Yeah, I love nothing in the dungeon. No. Yeah. Good boundary there. Is it a good boundary? Yeah. [00:01:00] Yes. So, um, are you from palmy? No, I'm from Taranaki. Taranaki. Um what? Um how long have you lived in palmy? Uh, about a year and a half. Nearly two years. About a year and a half, maybe a year and three quarters or something. So did just came from New Plymouth. I ever I've never been to [00:01:30] before that not that great nice beach and a nice view of the mountain. But that's about it. That's it? Yeah. It's really small. It's very small. Why is that? Because it's a small town. How many people are there? Oh, I don't know. Couple of 1000 maybe nothing. Big? No. No. So what is your sex like female? That Is that what you mean? Yes. [00:02:00] You know what gender identity is? Um, will you classify yourself as female or male? Yes. What gender do you What gender do you identify yourself as? Female female. And what is your sexuality as sexual. And what is your cultural identity? Which which culture do you identify with New Zealand? Is that what you're asking me? You can you can be. You can identify [00:02:30] your culture with Kiwi. Can I be like Kiwi, Asian, kiwi? Asian? Really? Because I'm really into Asia. You're really into Asia. So I'm really into Asian culture. That's not my actual, um, nationality. But it works. And, um, do you express yourself in a masculine feminine a dike way or to boy or anything? Um, I'd say I'm more feminine [00:03:00] than masculine. Yeah, you like a girly girl. Not super girly, but kind of. You have your You have your masculine moments, but not that often? Yeah. Yeah, as you do. So when did you realise that you were attracted to the same gender? Um, I think I was, like, 14. And I remember I was watching TV, and, um, there's a bunch of cheerleaders on TV, and I was like, Oh, they're quite hot, blah, blah. And I was [00:03:30] like, Oh, shit. I just realised I'm attracted to women. Holy shit. And yeah, that was pretty much it. Was it like a Was it, like, bring it on or something like that movie? No, Um, I think the rugby was on or something. My parents watching rugby, and there's cheerleaders or something like that. I can't really remember. That's new. OK, I've never actually heard. Um, I never actually heard that before Where someone, um, [00:04:00] a girl figured out that they are attracted to girls by watching a manly game of rugby. I don't watch rugby. My dad was watching it and I was just in the room and there was cheerleaders. Be aggressive. Be aggressive. Touch your ball on that ground. Yeah. Oh, any who? So, um, did you have feelings with, um other students [00:04:30] in my class? Like other girls? Not in my class, but at the same school I did at the same school. Yeah. Did Did you ever tell them about it or no. Where they like the hot girls that just, like, walk around and you just go, Um, kind of Yeah. Like I don't Really? Yeah, I'm really easily intimidated by females. So if I like a girl, I can never really tell her. Why is that? [00:05:00] Because I'm very shy. Are you're a shy person. Yeah. I make sure, like I've got social anxiety as well. So, um, when you, um, first realised, how did you feel? Uh hm. Nothing really changed, like, Oh, my God. I was just like, Oh, that's interesting. You didn't really went through a period, didn't you? [00:05:30] No. You just accepted who you are. Like me. Yeah, pretty much I. I don't like I had a boyfriend at the time, but, um yeah, there was no problem with it. Really. I was just like, Oh, give us a heart. My my girlfriend is and two other girls. Was it that kind of thing? Um, he kind of didn't really like it that much, but really, because he's said, [00:06:00] um, girls that him for other girls before, So he was scared I was going to do that, which is understandable. Yeah, I guess. That's understandable. Yeah, I guess that's different then. He's not really against sexuality. He's just No, no. It was just because we were in a relationship, he was just afraid of me leaving him kind of thing. Yeah. It's sweet in a way, don't you think? Yeah. I don't want to lose you. [00:06:30] Yeah. So, um, when did you come out or are you out? Um, I haven't told my family, but with my friends, I've pretty much told everyone. Like, Yeah. Hm. How does that go when you told them? Well, I didn't actually really have to come out to them. I was just kind of like an everyday conversation, like, Oh, yeah. I'm by blah, blah, blah kind of thing. Or like, are we talking about a girl? And people were like, [00:07:00] Oh, you're gay. And I'm like, Oh, I'm kind of thing. Like, it's not a big deal, but with my family, I can't tell them. Why is that? Um I'm not really close with them, so I don't know how they react. So it's not really a question of coming out or anything. It's just that you just don't feel like I feel like they should know. Um, if I get in a relationship with a girl for, like, a long term relationship, I'd probably tell them. But at the moment, I've never really had any reason to tell them. Fair enough. [00:07:30] Yeah. So, um, when did you, um when was that? When you were actually coming out to your friends? Um mm. It's I kind of just tell them when I meet them. Or like, uh, I don't know, Like when I was 15 or 16 or something. So did you ever felt that you had to keep it secret from anybody from my family from your family? [00:08:00] Do you think that you if you would ever tell them if, of course, you probably would if you got into a relationship, but otherwise, um hm. Maybe if they asked me about it, Like, see you with a different with a girl or something like that. Um, if it was with a girl, I would tell them. But if, um, my parents were just like I don't know if they just asked or what [00:08:30] your sexuality or something. I wouldn't mind telling them, but I'm not going to bring it up myself. It's highly unlikely that they'll probably be especially, especially if you've had boyfriends and so on. Yeah. Yeah. So you've had a support system in your because of your sexuality? Um, about your sexuality. Like no one was against it or anything. And they supported you. If anyone was, I'd just be like, Fuck off, please. Yeah. And, [00:09:00] um Oh, God. Lost track. How can I lose track? Um, so have you ever been to a LGBTI Q? Um, youth group before? No. Have you ever wanted to? Yes, but, um, because of my social anxiety, I haven't been able to If someone did take me, I'd probably just be real quiet and not really talk to anyone kind of thing. Yeah. So you've been [00:09:30] in, uh, have you ever been in a relationship with a girl before? Not in a relationship. Have you had things with girls? Just 11? Yeah. Like to tell us about it? Um, I was drunk at a party. We just hooked up like nothing big. No, nothing big. No, she, um We thought about getting into a relationship afterwards, but it just didn't happen. Yeah, we weren't really that into each other kind of thing. Like [00:10:00] it was just a drunk thing. Spare at the moment. Yeah. Hm. Have you ever had feelings for her, like, proper romantic feelings for a girl before? Yes. Yes, I have. We just like to give us an example of any of these girls. Um, there was this one girl who I met in Japan, and she was from Canada, and I kind [00:10:30] of fell in love with her, but she's straight, so I never told her. Um, so yeah. Yeah. So, um, how do you meet other people in the LGBTI Q community? I've never really been able to Until recently, my flatmates kind of introduced me to people in the community. And slowly, one by one and one. Yeah, like just starting to know her friends. So all new for you. Brand new experiences [00:11:00] bla bla bla bla. It's like, Wow, it's a completely new world. Is there a new will for you? Um, a little bit. Yeah, but at the same time, it's like nothing has changed. Yeah. Nothing's really changed that much. It's just more around me? Yeah. People More fabulous. Absolutely. Yeah. So, um, what is your definition of virginity? My definition of virginity? [00:11:30] Yes. Um, well, this first time you make love to someone. Really? Do you think, um, do you feel that virginity can be more of a sexual thing? Could be other things like emotional, spiritual, religious. Um, Hm. I just say it's a physical thing. Like just the physical sex between, [00:12:00] uh, between two people. Yeah. Ok. Have you ever experienced or received any abuse or abusive behaviour because of your sexuality or gender identity? No, it's not because you're like, Oh, I'm fine. What? It It's because you're not really going out and saying, Oh, I bye. Not really. No. Then again, I don't think anybody does that. No. [00:12:30] Yeah, I'm gay and probably like a drag queen. Um, apart from Beth, I am a lesbian. Yeah, but I think she's more like, Oh, I'm a dominatrix. So tell us a little bit more about you being a P a with you, Um, for dominatrix. Um, it's kind of interesting because I'm quite [00:13:00] vanilla. So, like, not like you're not chocolate or anything, Or strawberry, like, um, sexually. I'm quite not that kinky. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm not into, um, whips or toys and stuff like that. So it's kind of really interesting doing stuff with because she's into so much. And I'm just like, what is this? You're slightly fascinated, [00:13:30] but at the same time, you're like, No. Yeah. Yeah, pretty much Keep that whip away from me. I don't want to be tied up. Uh, too many dreams. So did you expect this to happen at all the thing? Yeah. Um, no, I didn't expect it, but it just kind of happened. Things happen. [00:14:00] Here we go. Goodness gracious me. What do you see yourself doing in the future? Um, I want to travel a lot. So I want to have a job where I can kind of work in many countries, in many countries, like all throughout Asia, I'd love to travel for Asia. You travelled a lot already, haven't you? A little bit, obviously. To Japan. Yeah, that was awesome. How [00:14:30] about anywhere else? I've been to Fiji, Tonga, Vanuatu. Um, that's all. No, no, I haven't even been to the South Island either. 82. Well, thank you for the interview. Ok, sweet.

IRN: 654
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_danny.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004023
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089317
TITLE: Danny - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Information Technology; Manawatū; Palmerston North; Q12 (series); alcohol; bebo. com; clothing; coming out; computers; facebook. com; family; friends; gay; homophobia; music; myspace. com; parents; relationships; religion; school; sex; television; video games; youth
DATE: 13 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Manawatū, Manawatu, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Danny talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm good. That is good. What's your name? Danny. Ok, Danny, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? I am 22. Mhm. Say anything about your personality? What do you like to do? Like do you work? Uh, I study ITIT and I like video [00:00:30] games, video games, music. What? What type of, um, video games. Do you like? I like RPGSRPGS like, um or something like that. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, OK. What type of music do you like? Lots. Lots and lots, for example. Uh, I What's that? Mongolian? [00:01:00] Through singing. You said I do quite like that. And country music and just all sorts. All sorts. A good mix of stuff. Yes. So you from from Yeah, and Yeah. So, um what sex are you? I am a man. Man. Man. Man, do you know what [00:01:30] gender identity is? Not really. What gender do you identify with? So either female, male or any other gender? I suppose I go with male male. And what is your sexuality? I am gay. You're gay. I am a gay like thing. As he snaps fabulously as he snaps fabulously. So, [00:02:00] um, I forgot What's going on? Um, And what is your cultural identity or ethnicity? Uh, New Zealander New Zealand. European. Yeah. Yeah. And how do you express yourself in a masculine or feminine camp twink a little bit in the middle of the road. So in between as you do, do you Do you have a big [00:02:30] collection of jeans? That's stripy ones. Apparently. We have to talk about your jeans from all those ones. My fabulous stripy jeans. Yes, from Glasson. That cool. Fabulous. You got to talk about the genes from lessons. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, when [00:03:00] did you realise that you were gay? Uh, when you came out of the uterus, Uh, I was 15. I guess properly when I realised what happened. You know, it's just a boy across the room, and you've had a I had a boyfriend since I was 13, and then it took me two years to click. You had a boyfriend since you were 13. Yeah, and didn't quite [00:03:30] realise that I was properly into guys until I was 15. So you really like bisexual when you How about before then? Did you had an attraction to boys before that? Not really. That I can, like, Remember anything? Hm? He just randomly got into a relationship with a boy at 13. Yeah. Um, yeah, yeah, just casually. Just casually [00:04:00] That how when was that was like, um, an early high school or Yeah. Um, yeah. First year of high school. What was that relationship like? That's good. It was? Yeah. That was good. Love. Love. Yeah. Did you ever had a a moment? We had to, um, when you didn't accept your sexuality, I think it's like a denial. [00:04:30] Um, probably. I think that led to me being oblivious to it for a couple of years. What do you mean by oblivious? Like not realising that I was gay into guys until I was 15, Which is? Yeah. Probably tied into denial. And then you had to click. Yeah. Oh, boys. I like them. Yeah, and had a bit of a freak out. And [00:05:00] I don't like boys. I shouldn't like boys. And you just look in the mirror and it's like, just get a hold of yourself. You like boys? You like that cock? Like, Come on, do be the true you. So, um so are you out of the closet? He screams at, darling. Yeah, well, yeah. I don't like I don't hide it or anything, but, uh, [00:05:30] so I'm not insanely fabulous. There's sometimes where incredibly fabulous. But he'll have a glass of wine and get incredibly fabulous indeed. What's your favourite wine? That's a good question for me, actually. Real loose. Um, probably white. White chardonnay is good. Good. Chardonnay. A good. It's a nice [00:06:00] little crisp boat to it, as they do. So, um, when did you first came out? When did you first come out? Come out. I was I was 15. I was 14 or 15, I think. Yeah, I think I was just 15. Who did you tell? First I told my mom. How did your mom react to that? She was fine. That was a mess. But she was fine. We were in tears a bit. Yeah, [00:06:30] I didn't cry. I was like, I don't know how to tell you. I'm gay grandchildren for you. See, what I find funny is the fact that you like, It's like I'm gay, and it's more like coming out to your parents about saying I'm pregnant. It's probably more frowned upon now. Oh, you should get a TV show if you're pregnant. Yeah, there should be a TV show of people coming out of the age that could that could get really good. Actually, I really like the sound of that. [00:07:00] I think that's my next project after the business is already Yeah. The clearest book is a TV show Reality reality TV Show or something like that. What would we call coming out? You mentioned the drama on that show out of shit. Oh, I love it. I can picture this week on coming out the biggest cat I ever out of Narnia. Yeah, coming out of Narnia was my job. So, um [00:07:30] so who did you, Um how did the reaction go when you were telling your friends that you were gay? Um and really? Tell them like, you just kind of assume like, yeah, Like like the real close ones. I I told. And like you let Facebook do the rest? Oh, no. I was late to that game [00:08:00] that I was so late to that party. I was like, turned up and everyone had gone 2010. I got on there. It was 2011. Very late. We held out. I think it was 2009 myself. Cheers. Yeah, I held out for ages. I was like too much of a one was on. I was like, Oh, damn, I want to talk to people. I have to go on Facebook. Yeah. First MySpace, Bebo, then Facebook [00:08:30] I. I still have my MySpace. My I mean, my Bebo is still there, but I don't use it. I still go there. I like. Yeah, I got so much love. Winston still has his I was, like, you know, keep keep using it. Why not? So, um, you you had a bit of a sport system with your friends and family. They accepted your sexuality. Uh uh, friends? [00:09:00] Yeah. Family was a bit mixed. Would like to give an example of those mixed reactions. Uh, I have some really religious family members. Yeah, religion. You're a good friend. Yeah, ok. Are you religious yourself? No, very much. Not so at all. Not at all. Well, much. You try not to be. Yeah, well, not any of the Christian [00:09:30] religions. They just keep yeah, a spiritual like pagan Buddhist and stuff and stuff. So have you been in relationships before? Yes, Yes. Would you like to give some examples? How many relationships have you been in? Oh, hang on. I need to count. Danny, give me your hands. I need to add my Yeah, there's a lot. Remember, there's [00:10:00] a difference between things and relationships. Proper relationships, maybe like oh, right. 10 proper actual relationships, I suppose. Yeah. And like a lot of things, a lot Not even go there. Uh, would you like to tell us about in one of your relationships? Uh, the nicest one. [00:10:30] The nicest one. Um, I suppose it was probably my first one. It's always the good one. How long does that last? But well, two years. Oh, yeah. The one from Beijing. Yeah, that was That was nice. Like, hold hand. Wasn't Did you both go to the same high school as something you did? Um, was it a bit obvious that you two were together? No. Like [00:11:00] we it was pretty much out of school that we would ever like. Do anything. Um um well, at school. Oh, hey. Well, you know, there are some places that school, but yeah, we were very like, yeah. Obvious or anything at school. He tried not to be, Uh, we just kind of when he was a different year group and [00:11:30] how much older than he was you, Uh, Was he 15 or something? Yeah, he was. He was 17 at the time when we first got together. Oh, well, so then it was only And then the next year, he wasn't at school. Yeah. See, for me, that was pretty much the same. I was 17 and Freya was 14. It works like it's quite good. So you have in your relationship? Yeah. We weren't, like exclusive, though, because he was all like, Oh, you're young and do [00:12:00] things experiment and stuff, but, like, how does it end? Uh, he moved to Germany. He ran to Germany, Um, as far away as bloody possible. Um, he did music, and so he was all over the world with orchestras and symphonies, so yeah. Yeah, quite. Yeah. It wasn't like a problem or [00:12:30] anything. It was a mutual car. I have to go. Yeah. I mean, I think we both sort of knew it would end at some stage, especially at that age. Yeah. So, um, how do you meet other people in the LGBTI Q community basically wears a shirt. My Facebook stuff? Um, uh, No, I suppose. Did you meet me? We lived here for two weeks. Casually together? [00:13:00] Um, yeah, probably just two friends and Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's actually you're actually probably one of the people that I introduced you to the LGBTI Q community through, like, you know, you bring people around or you know, people. And I'm like, Oh, hey, I don't know you, but hi. Hi. Your da da. [00:13:30] So, um, what is your definition of virginity like of having virginity? Virginity? Virginity itself? Um, yeah. I think a lot of people are like, Oh, I'm still a virgin. I've only done blow jobs and stuff, but I think that counts. I must say it just any mutual sexual contact with someone, um, [00:14:00] penetration. Or I guess that would have to be in any sense. Um, it would definitely lose virginity. You pop the cherry. Yeah, Well, you know, my mouth is still gets penetrated. I guess so. That still counts, I guess. Well, because for lesbians, it's quite hard because you don't have anything there to penetrate the with missing my tongue. Anyway, um, have you experienced [00:14:30] or received any abuse because of your sexuality or gender identity? Uh, yeah, a little bit, I suppose. Over the years, um, do you get yelled at you on the streets? No. Most people don't pick up somehow. These days, I think I just get filed under a little bit strange. Um, yeah, but I've got the art sort of side to fly under. So, um, I don't know. It's hard to sort of tell whether it is just [00:15:00] because you're gay these days, because you know who's so gay? It's just sort of like a go to kind of insult, so it sort of makes it a bit harder, but I've never sort of like, Oh, well, no. Sorry. Um, only, like, once or twice I think of, like, specifically being sort of singled out because I was gay or or people thought I was gay kind of thing. OK, well, thank you for the interview. You very welcome.

IRN: 653
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_chicken_lil.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004022
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089316
TITLE: Chicken Lil - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Closet Space; Fielding; New Zealand School of Dance; Palmerston North; Q12 (series); Toi Whakaari (Wellington); coming out; creativity; dance; family; friends; gay; homophobia; performance; relationships; school; sex; support; visual arts
DATE: 14 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Manawatū, Manawatu, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Chicken Lil talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm dandy. Yes, I saw what you did there. So who are you? I am, um, chicken little. And you're also number 40? Yeah. Yeah. I'm number 40 Interviewee. I think I've been doing this right. Am I doing it right? So can you tell us a little bit about yourself? I like to dance. I've been dancing [00:00:30] for yonks now, And, um, in a couple of weeks, I'm auditioning for New Zealand School of Dance Down in Wellington with an association with and stuff. Um, other than that. Fabulous. Fabulous. Yeah. Fabulous. I do see your families. And I was like, No, I only have one. But, you know, how many families do you have, exactly? Yeah. Yeah, I've got lots of families, my friend, families, many families. [00:01:00] Are you many, Many likes and hobbies? Um, I like I like boys. Um, my hobbies. Boys, boys. Yeah, but, um you know, um, I like sort of anything creative, like painting, drawing. I'm shit at both of those, But I like them and that sort of stuff, um, dancing, acting, stage work, anything, really, Just being social. I like Oh, sorry. I tapped your foot [00:01:30] you playing with me? Yeah. I even drink yet. I don't think you need to. Yeah. Um, yeah, but other than that, anything, really, As long as it's not too crazy. Not too crazy. Yeah, well, I say that, but then it's like, Oh, yeah, take off your shirt. Yeah, Well, funny story. This is actually a pop dome shirt. And I was like, you know, just occasionally, like moving [00:02:00] around as you do, and they started coming popped because it's actually really tight. Yeah. Yeah. True story. True story. So, um, what is your sex? I'm not sure that jokes. You're male. You're male. And you know what I mean by gender Identity. Gay? No, that's sexuality. Damn it. Um, male. Yes. OK, that's the gender you identify. [00:02:30] Obviously. How do you know I'm reading your mind right now? But I have to say it out loud. So the microphone Can you see it? Um, anyway, yeah, where was I? Um, all this mind fucking is fucking with my mind. That is [00:03:00] the general idea of mind perks. I keep kicking everybody. I'm sorry. It's very, um, in and around town. What is your culture? Identity. What? What culture do you identify with New Zealander help? How do you express yourself? You know, masculine feminine camp Twinkie. Any of those? Um I don't know. I'm just, like, No, [00:03:30] I'm just like, No, I mean, I guess you'd have to ask other people, but I don't know. I've got people here, I guess, sort of camping. Not all the time, but I would disagree. I will say arty and drama sort of Shakespeare. Do you like [00:04:00] to be or not to be? This is not the question since we're in the middle of an interview. So when did you realise that you were attracted to buy Yonks ago? I know that's a very vague answer, but it was like there wasn't really sort of a turning point, Like, that's why I say it wasn't really, like a certain point. It was just sort of like a you know, I realised Hey, Yeah. [00:04:30] Oh, my gosh. Coffees are coming anyway. We've got coffee. Awesome. Thank you very much. When did it actually really quickly? I don't think it was till, Uh, yeah, nine. Four years ago, four years ago. Um, when I was sort of, like, [00:05:00] you know, sort of actually getting into the whole scene of them, and it was like, Yeah, I don't know, but it was sort of like a hey, wait a minute. I know what the nailed it. Oh, am I allowed to say? Yeah, well, I just said fuck before, So I don't know if there's some things I'm not allowed to say, but what, you're not [00:05:30] No, no, no. I've already done that. Um, What was that? So you never went through a denial period, didn't you? No, actually, um, I think that I don't know. I've heard of, like, a lot of people who have, like, sort of, like, gone through this period with that. Maybe not. But I've never actually sort of reached that point. I was just sort of like I was sort of [00:06:00] there's, like, five of us, so we expect a couple more, but, um 044 of us. Little red has a powerade over there. Um, but yeah, I don't know. There really wasn't a point where I was just like, Hey, you know what? I don't know. But so you never went through a period where you said I'm actually by, but trying to deny it in a way, But you're not At the same time, it was like you accept that you like boys. But [00:06:30] you're saying that you like girls. So something up like that. There was there was obviously times when I was like, you know, I don't wanna be, um But I always sort of knew that I was, And that would be so. There was never any doubt. I mean, of course, there are those ups and downs, but I look at the hair. My hair is kind of shit. That's why I wear a hat. Take off the hat. [00:07:00] You wear a lot of hat. That's the point. Recently, he had a haircut. That was shit. So bad haircut. I know. It's tragic. Tragic. Life changing. Yeah, pretty much. So. When did you come out of the closet? Um Well, are you? Yes, I am. I'm like, out and about, like, you know, just chilling wasn't very good [00:07:30] for you. No, There was all these lines and shit and talking trees. And I was like, Jesus, yeah. I was like, What are you doing with your horns and your fluff? Oh, God. That sounded like a real like kinky like. No, um, I'm not. I'm not. I'll be honest. Anyway, Um, but yeah. And then you come out of me estimating [00:08:00] three years ago. So you realise when you've done it? Four years ago and you came out three years ago. Yeah, it was pretty OK, thank you. As you. Who was the first person you told? Um, I honestly don't remember. Uh, I don't think it was sort of like a [00:08:30] sort of, um I think it was just like a he's screaming out. Yeah, it wasn't really like a they They just sat down with someone and say hm, it wasn't a confidential thing. Yeah, I was like, Mom, I'm gay or something like that. It wasn't my mum. Your friend Shelley. I'm gay. I don't know if you know someone. That's names. She I do. And I was just about to say a story about Shelley. Oh, go ahead. [00:09:00] She's so cute. Um, she came over like, oh, she was from Germany and she came over with, and she was, like, really blonde. And she was really pretty. And yeah, that was cute. So now I like the name Shelley. Even though it reminds me of Shell's I. I work with someone at Shelley. She's like a boss to me. She is a boss, like a boss, like a boss. But she is, Um, what's the next one? So you kind of had a big support system. People [00:09:30] supported you and your sexuality? Yep. Um, well, for the first, while there was, like, you know, the obvious blow down trodden. Yeah, yeah, but it's like I by that point, I was sort of, like, accepted it myself. So I was like, It's like, congratulations. Everyone else knows. What are you trying to prove? So it was, like a sort of get used to it sort of thing, [00:10:00] but to others, And then they did. And now it's sort of like, whatever. It's sort of like a small town, so everyone knows sort of everyone. So yeah, it's It's no big news anymore. Like every step you take is a trail behind you If we move you back. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we're not. We're not. Who's that singer? It was like Rob someone. No, I'm glad you stopped me there, though, because I couldn't [00:10:30] remember the rest of the song. This is not karaoke, anyway. So? So where where were we? Um, So you've been in a few relationships before That smile, that cheeky smile. Oh, dear. Yeah. Would you like to tell us about some How many relationships have you too many Now, um, I've had a few long [00:11:00] ones, though, so it's all good. I guess it comes down a few. Yeah, It's like the first couple sort of discoveries. Sort of like, Who am I? What do I like? And then it's sort of like now you found yourself. So, like, now I know what I want. And now I know what I like Afraid to have some fun along the way Click over the heels, Yeah, Click the snap down the yellow brick road Snap, snap, snap three snaps. Messy. I'm gonna steal some sugar, [00:11:30] Some sugar. Yeah, but I'm not. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, what was the next question? How do you meet people in the LGBTI Q community in the LGBTI Q gay by transgender intersex Queer. 00, [00:12:00] I think she wants to speak for this one. No, not you. You. Oh, there's this really cool support group in. Yeah, and it's, um it's like a little. It's called closet space, and it's really cool. And if you're around here, totally check it out. Um, it's a great support sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah. And And, um, don't don't shove your hand off his fast. [00:12:30] Hey, speak for yourself. Um huh. Um, Anyway, um, So I went to that a couple of times, and that was really cool. And I met a couple of few people through there. And then, um, you know, that was awesome. And then from the, uh, I got work on Wednesday nights, so I couldn't go anymore gutted. But I still sort of kept with [00:13:00] in touch with the people and the people that you know, new people. And then, yeah, if you know, if you're willing to get out there and do stuff, then there's always people to meet. It's just who you know, in a bar or a cafe. I am a barista. I'm doing my Brister training at the moment 101 times, but yeah, I'm totally like judging this coffee. I drink. I'm like [00:13:30] I'm judging you like the coffee beans. The burn? Yeah. Are they? Nah, they're pretty good. It's not as good as some of taste. Not as good as me. No. Yeah, I taste better. Like I just really like that. Yeah. Anyway, um, what is your definition of virginity? Virginity? Oh, wow. Every single. There's a random lady just sitting there like listening [00:14:00] to this interview. And I was like, Awkward, um, the limit. All three of these people have actually answered that question because they all, um I haven't really thought about that, I reckon. I think pen, pen penetrate, penetrate penetration. Yeah, penetrative sex is, [00:14:30] um, or it's just a lack of sexual act. I don't really count that. Making artists and stuff. I guess it's not a common track, but it's very nice. Um, going inside the concords there. Have you experienced or received any abuse or abusive behaviour because of your sex or gender identity or your sexuality to expand on that? No, [00:15:00] no. Um well, there's not really much to expand on it. Sort of like everyone sort of gets the same sort of stuff. That's why I sort of like having sort of like the gay people sort of as sport, because they they know what you're going through sort of abuse than anything else? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's more. I mean, it does vary from person to person, but as you do it and I mean, I'm I'm not the kind of person to like, dwell on the [00:15:30] bad And oh, it was me. This happened to be three years ago. It's a like, OK, cool. So what? That's what they think. This is what I think Sort of like it doesn't affect me, just sort of like at the end of the day, you're the only person who you have to impress. So I know it's because the cheer is just there and your legs next to the chair and it's like, Oh, yeah, it is. Life is hard. [00:16:00] No problem. Thanks for coming down the coffee.

IRN: 652
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_seth.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004021
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089315
TITLE: Seth - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; InsideOUT Kōaro; Kapiti Coast District; Māori; Palmerston North; Pride; UniQ (Palmerston North); abuse; arts; coming out; equality; friends; gay; graphic design; heteronormativity; homophobia; identity; internet; movies; music; parents; prejudice; relationships; school; sex; sex education; sexphobia; social; social media; support; venues; visual arts; youth
DATE: 14 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Manawatū, Manawatu, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Seth talks about being gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm good. Thanks. How are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm Seth. Hello. Hello? Hello? Hello. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Um, I'm a graphic designer. Born and raised in Palmerston North. Uh, what else do you want to know? Anything about your personality? Um, I don't know. I like stuff and things. Movies, graphic design, rainbows, [00:00:30] unicorns. Yeah. And you're a facilitator? Yes. I run Uniq, the group for Queer University students here in Palmerston North. And that's where I met you. Yes, it is. Yes. Yes. And and likes and hobbies. Hm. Design movie posters, seeing movies, hunting down obscure movies. [00:01:00] Yeah, Yeah. Reading the internet, but not books. Yeah. Yeah. A graphic design student actually did my logo. So are you happy with your logo? I am happy with my logo. Do you? Do you like the logo? Um, I think so. I haven't got it in front of me, but I didn't hate it. That's good. Or you wouldn't be doing this interview. I hate I hate the logo so much. I'm not doing it. So, um, what were [00:01:30] you at the a last week? No, No, that was closet space, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah, OK. Never mind. Um, So what is your sex male? You know, frequent. Do you know what um, gender identity is? Uh yes. OK, what gender do you identify with, um, Male? OK, And what is your sexuality? Gay? 100%. 100% gay. And what culture do you identify with? [00:02:00] Uh, mostly New Zealand Pakeha little bit Maori. Are we talking just race? Because what culture do you culture is a fairly expansive question. That's why that's how I ask it. Um, I don't know. I think like, 50 years ago, culture would have been primarily sort of a question that relates to where you have grown up and your sort of racial and ethnic makeup. But these days, [00:02:30] that's where you're who you're around with. Yeah, it's like everything. It's your interests and who you talk with on the Internet, Whether they're your neighbour or on the other side of the world. I really do. I should just make clear that that's my sock rubbing on the chair down there. Yeah, and, um, because, like, groups that you belong to can be, you know, they can be spatial or geographical, or they can be [00:03:00] sort of all over the world defined by other things. So yeah. Yeah. So, um, what is your expression like, How do you express yourself how I express, like, my gender identity or everything? Like masculine feminine camp twink? I don't know. I guess I'm Some people say I'm straight acting. Some people say that they kind of know I'm gay as soon as I talk to them. [00:03:30] Yeah, I know. I'm not quite as camp as some people like, you know, Leave a pile of every step you take. No, not every step. I do like rainbows, and I do like the colour pink, but I tend to sort of not dress in it so much. And my musical tastes are like, not Kylie and Madonna. I tend to like nine inch nails and radio, head and stuff. So you're like a rock. A rock gay, I guess. Yeah, some people [00:04:00] who I know who are gay, but they tend to like like, really heavy metal music. They sort of are hesitant to describe themselves as gay because they feel like when they go to a gay bar, they don't see anybody that they identify with because everyone's listening to Kylie. Whereas I don't think you have to be this one narrow definition of gay in order to be gay. I'm perfectly happy calling myself gay. Even though I might not share sort of everything with other gay people. Mainly, most clubs play stereotypical [00:04:30] music, so yeah, and there are a lot of people who, like, you know, just Kylie and Lady Gaga, which is fine. But, um, I wouldn't stop calling myself gay just because, you know, some of my interests are cup of tea. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, when did you realise that you were attracted to males? Um, I think when I was about 14 or 15, it kind of clicked one day because I grew up in I said, born and raised earlier. But I did spend some of my childhood up [00:05:00] the coast, which is quite rural and sort of sparsely populated. Um, so there certainly wasn't any sort of visible gay role models or anything. Um, I think one day when I was 14, it just kind of clicked. Even though the realisation had been building probably a long time before that final point, it collected But, um I think everyone's just raised to sort of not entertain those thoughts. Everybody's raised to sort of suppress [00:05:30] anything, whether it be homosexual or just, you know, somebody's love of theatre or whatever. So I wasn't aware of it until it clicked. But when it clicked, I felt like it had sort of it retroactively brought clarity to an awareness that had been building for quite some time. Um, yeah. Was there a situation where that click that made you ultimately realise like you were sitting in class and you saw a boy across the room and you we're attracted [00:06:00] to that boy and you're like, Oh, I'm actually gay, I think, or something like that. I think it clicked one day. It just clicked that all of my fantasies were about other men. Um, but that happened before I actually started for the first time, checking out another young man in my class. That kind of happened, I guess, months later, Um, so I guess they were two distinct events, but, um, yeah, they [00:06:30] weren't too far from each other. And it was just checking out a boy in my class and sort of giving myself permission to be like, Oh, OK, yes, I do. You know, find him handsome and I can sort of be OK with that. So you never really went through a denial period, didn't you? Uh, once I was aware of it, I didn't deny it. But before you did, before I became aware of it, you could say that, Sort of. There's sort of a big blanket culture of denial [00:07:00] of anything gay, that sort of. I guess everyone was sort of raised in. So if we lived in a more accept culture with more visible gay role models, I might have sort of come to the realisation a lot sooner. It's like I'm gay. OK, yeah, they have, like preschools now that you read about not many of them, obviously. But around the world, there's the occasional preschool where they're like, you know, let the kids dress however they want. And if some kids want to dress [00:07:30] outside of the anatomical gender they were born into, the the sort of, you know, they don't get punished for it. So you find that kids younger and younger are identifying as trans and stuff, which I think is really healthy. I also think that there there was this car, not book this, uh, picture book for pre school. About how a kid talking about how he has two dads car thing, a picture book for preschool Children or five year olds? [00:08:00] Yeah, something like that. I don't know. So anyway, um, when did you come out? Are you out? I am out. Yes. When did I come out? Um, I wasn't out when I was at college, where I was till I was 18. And then I think I kind of when people come out generally, it's a process of coming out to all their friends that they haven't been out to up to that point. But what I did is kind of ditch all my old friends [00:08:30] and just make new friends as an out gay person. Um, I came out to my mum when I was 21 and she raised me. So that was kind of my big parental coming out, and that went fine. Um, but I felt like growing up when you can't really be yourself or you feel that you can't, then the friendships you do form throughout your childhood adolescence. Teenage years are kind of restricted [00:09:00] because you can never be totally honest with the people you're forming friendships with. So it kind of restricts the the weight of the friendship that you have with them. So I guess it was kind of easier for me to just sort of leave that behind me. And, um, just make new friends. Um, yeah, and that was weird. Began new stage of your life. Where you [00:09:30] Well, you didn't really get a coming out story. You just say hi, I'm hi. I'm this or this and it was kind of just a reboot Start over. It wasn't it wasn't this one big event where you just had to tell everybody? How about your parents, though? My mom was cool with it. She might have had, you know, a week of, like, not being sure how to handle it. But she I guess she kind of suspected it was like it's, like, genuine the window period of how they went through a shock. And then they were like, Oh, well, OK, then I'm OK with it. Yeah, [00:10:00] the thing is like the way the culture is, parents aren't Everyone's raised with this kind of heteronormative assumption that you know their kids are gonna be straight. And if they have a son, that's gonna, you know, be an all black. And if they have a girl, she's gonna, you know, grow up to do traditionally feminine things and get a husband Ra Ra ra. And so, yeah, parents haven't been raised with any sort of building blocks as to Oh, you know, maybe you should adjust your expectations, maybe the expectations you've been raised with that all people [00:10:30] are going to be straight are sort of unfair and unrealistic expectations. Yeah. So, um, you had a bit of a support. Did you have a support system about, um, about people affecting your sexuality? People watching my sexuality, accepting your sexuality? Yeah, I got in touch with uniq back in the day. Like before I run it. Um, and it was cool. It was very valuable to have a support network. Um, where you could just [00:11:00] be yourself. Because when you're raised in a small town, um, and where is, like, the the biggest city, even though it's still Yeah, well, doing some years in the car coast, when you're kind of raised with these small town values, it's like even when I came back to palmy and sort of could have been, you know, out as soon as I got here, you're sort of raised with a sort of looking over your shoulder mentality. So it took me a while to sort of get over that. And having [00:11:30] a group like uniq was immensely valuable and sort of that process. Yeah. So have you been in relationships before? Yes. How many? One super serious one and the rest of flings a few flings a few dates? Yeah, it's only one serious one. It's been off and on for years. Um, but it's definitely the most serious relationship of my life. [00:12:00] It's currently sort of ambiguous because the person I was in love with doesn't currently want to be in a relationship. He's, um he's sort of just going through some personal growth of his own, and he wants to just not be in a relationship right now, which I can accept. Um, but I don't really want to be with anyone else. So having a break or something like that? Sort of. Yeah, we've broken up at times during [00:12:30] in the past, and I've tried to sort of move on and get over him and date other people. But what I've found is that I don't want other people. Like, I guess it's love kind of because even dating other people, it's like I can go through the motions. But there's just something missing. It's like it's not the same dance steps. Yeah, and I could be out there dating or screwing around or something now, But whatever I would get from that, [00:13:00] yeah, I think it would just take me further and further away from what I'm really looking for, which is him. So even though he wants to be single right now, I'm you know, I'm OK with that. And, um, we'll just see where it goes. And if it's still that way in, like, a year or something, or yeah, I think love is worth waiting for. So, um, how do you meet other people in the LGBTI Q community? How do I meet them? Hm? Mainly through closet space. [00:13:30] Close? Yeah, mainly through uni and the bar. Uh, yeah, I don't go out to the bar much, but, um, you do occasionally. You do. Occasionally. I wish the crowd was more motivated to be part of groups and sort of do things because in Wellington, like, things are super political and there's lots of bars and everybody wants to do stuff. And their uni cube is like super full of super motivated kids with these political aspirations who want [00:14:00] to be part of something and, you know, paint banners and go to protests and stuff. And it's great and all kind of just like either very active or very drama like, Yeah, I find palmy. It must have tonnes of gay young people. But I guess it was very nervous, in a way. Yeah, I think some of them are nervous. And a lot of kids these days just seem to be quite content only socialising with a small group of their friends or just over the Internet and stuff like that. Yeah, so I feel like [00:14:30] as a whole, the queer community could accomplish a lot more if people were more interested in grouping and sort of helping groups like Uniq reach critical mass and helping put on events and stuff. But, um, sponsored by yeah, we used to have a pride week. Um, every year up at Massey, where we, you know, do stunts and what not? But, um, we haven't had it for a few years because we just don't tend to have the numbers. Eventually, it'll come back. Yeah, I think it will. I think it goes in sort of rhythms. [00:15:00] But, um, you do notice in, people are like, Oh, I'll just stay home and play PlayStation. They got nothing better to do. So, um, what is your definition of virginity? Hm? Interesting question. Virginity. I feel like that word descends from a time when, like, a very sexist time when women were just like property to be given away. And so virginity was just like their warrant of fitness or something, just a little extra tick to sort of give [00:15:30] them value. Um, I think the further we move away from that kind of old world sexist sort of ideas about sex and gender and stuff the better. And I feel like the more sex education we have in this culture and the more people are encouraged to talk openly about sex and educate themselves and, like, have access to [00:16:00] contraception and stuff, Um, the better it will be. So I think virginity isn't really it's not really the most important concept anymore. Um, a lot of people do believe that they accept, um, Vidin for emotional thing as well. Even in the gay community, they they claim their virginity. Even if they had lots of sex. Even if they have lots of sex, they feel like they still are virgins because they haven't lost [00:16:30] it through their love or the first time they are in love. They say that's that's their virginity gone because they yeah, that's interesting. A lot of other people say it's got something to do with purity as well. Not like this. Like after having sex, they're not pure or anything but something along those lines. Um, interesting. I feel like what was coming out of, like hundreds and hundreds of years of, like where religion [00:17:00] sort of ruled their communities. And there was this big, like sex negative culture where, like anyone who was born out of wedlock would be called, you know, a bastard. And there would be a sort of ostracised from their communities. Um, the culture, like all these church people, one of their motivations would have been to stop young women from getting pregnant. So they taught everyone to be afraid of sex and to, you know, believe that they'd go to hell if they had sex. And that may have worked [00:17:30] for a while. And they may have had good intentions, um, raising everyone to believe these things. But that was years ago. That was the yeah, and I feel like that may have worked back when everyone was uneducated and desperate. But there comes a point where you can no longer justify lying to people just because you feel it's in their best interests. Like today. In this day and age, the best thing you can do for young people is to sort of give them education, because [00:18:00] all these years of kind of suppressing sexuality have in a way, made rampant sex seem kind of cool. Like you've got Christina Aguilera dressing up like a stripper and all these young people, if they feel that they've been oppressed through being raised in, like, really religious sex phobic environments, then they often do go out and sort of become promiscuous before they fully understand the risks. And so sex cells. Yeah, I feel [00:18:30] like all this, like hundreds of years of sex phobia, have sort of come out produce this rebellion. It's come out all at once in the two thousands and which is now called the Noughties. And all these kids are going out and having way too much sex. And I feel like they're rebelling against the sort of sex phobia and also the homophobia. Because when all these church people are trying to trying to crush you and crush your heart and crush your identity as a queer person [00:19:00] and it is all tied to sex, So when you're trying to bust out of that, a lot of people do sort of think, Alright, I'm gonna go out and sort of assert myself by having the sex that they don't want me to have, whereas maybe in another, like 2030 years, if gay people get sort of more equality, I think the ideal scenario would be that young, queer people start sort of becoming not prudes exactly. But it would be very [00:19:30] ironic if they started to be kind of the standard bearers of a new sense of like sexual responsibility, because if they could do that and they could, you know, be sort of on magazine covers. Oh, you know, young, queer people aren't sort of running out and being promiscuous anymore. It would kind of steal a lot of the thunder from a lot of the religious bigots who say that gay people are promiscuous and everything. So, yeah, I eagerly await that day. Eventually, 10, [00:20:00] 2030 years. Yeah. As soon as people feel ok about sex and themselves, they'll stop like you won't get people trying to destroy themselves as much with alcohol and drugs and rampant blackout sex and stuff. Yeah, it's like the retake of the sixties or seventies or whatever era it was. Yeah. So, um, have you ever experienced or received any abuse or abusive behaviour because of your sex, sexuality or gender identity? Uh, have [00:20:30] I? Yes, I've never been, like, bashed in the street, but I think any queer person does get, you know, things yelled at them from car windows. I certainly have. I've had, like, you know, somebody threw a water bottle water bottle at me at one point. Um, people do yell homophobic abuse. Um, and also, I don't tend to drink at many straight bars these days. And by straight bars, I, I pretty much [00:21:00] mean all bars. Um because young, straight people they call each other homo and faggot and say, Oh, that's gay, that's so gay Ra Ra ra and I don't like it and it offends me and it offends me that they think it's not a big deal because I've called a few of them up on it. And some of them are like, 00, I didn't mean it like that. You know, I don't mean it in an offensive way, and they feel like that should be enough to make me not offended. But [00:21:30] what I wish they understood is that a lot of young, straight men do mean it that way. And they're the ones that started it and everything's spread from them. And when you're out at a bar, if they use it that way, then there's other people that follow suit and use it that way. They say, Oh, that's gay, you know? Oh, that's pretty gay. It's like the the homophobic Straight boys are getting a little pat on the back every time everyone else accepts their language because they, um [00:22:00] they are succeeding. Yeah, people might think, Oh, I don't mean it that way. But the fact that you are so comfortable using that language in that way and that you don't think it's offensive. That's kind of offensive. I saw a documentary about a American woman who's quite old now, but, um, during the black black civil rights movement, she saw a lot of racism going on. And so she started this. She was a teacher and she started [00:22:30] these exercises, um, splitting the kids in the class up into, like whatever their eye colour was. And then one day, Um, like all the people with green eyes are the sort of labelled the superior people, and they get to make fun of the other people. And then the following day, they swap it around and all the people with green eyes get to be the superior race. And they're told to, you know, take the bigger portions at at the lunch tray and sit on the good chairs and, [00:23:00] um, it sort of it became a little revolutionary, very controversial thing. But it's now practised in a lot of schools around the world because it teaches kids to understand prejudice in a way they might not have known. Yeah, to begin with, um, and this woman I forget her name. But, um, one of the things she said in this documentary about her was, um as a white woman growing up in America or as any white person growing up in America, they [00:23:30] have three three rights. That they have. One of them is to be racist. The next one is to pretend that racism doesn't even exist. And if anybody calls them on it to say, Oh, you know, racism doesn't exist and the third thing is the right to say, If you call me on it, you're just being you're just overreacting. You're imagining it. And, um, that's always stuck with me because when I'm just doing what I'm doing, [00:24:00] you know, on the bus or just any situation trying to walk through, you know, a room or somewhere. You have to be some public place, and people are talking like that and you can hear them and it bothers you. It almost feels like you're disturbing the status quo by calling them up on it because they certainly don't like to be called up on it. And it's just weird, you know, if you're sitting next to a random stranger to go up to them and be like, Hey, could you, you know, not use that language because it's sort [00:24:30] of offending me. It feels like society is shaped so that prejudice can survive because we're raised to think it's not right to speak up about it and that if we do speak up about it, we are the ones who are overreacting and being hyper sensitive. Yeah, well, thank you for the interview. Cool. Thank you. Best of luck.

IRN: 651
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_laurie.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004020
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089314
TITLE: Laurie - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Information Technology; Masterton; Palmerston North; Wairarapa; closeted; coming out; computers; facebook. com; family; friends; gaming; gay; homophobia; outdoors; parents; regions; relationships; rock climbing; rural; sex; sport; tagged. com; video games; youth
DATE: 7 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Masterton, Masterton, Wairarapa
CONTEXT: In this podcast Laurie talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm good. So what are you into? All kinds of things. Anything to do with the outdoors? You're really into your outdoors. Yes, I am. What's your favourite thing to do? Outdoors? Um, rock climbing in sailing, indoor or outdoor? Both. Both. What else do you like to out the door and go out hunting? Yeah. You [00:00:30] better? Yeah. I quite like my hunting, fishing, camping, and yeah, just hanging out with people. So, um, what do you So you're from Yes. Where were you born? Palmerston North. Palmerston North. So a couple of hours away. An hour away? Yeah, About 2. 5 ish. Yeah. So how [00:01:00] long have you lived in? Well, um, about 17 years. 17. 5, give or take. Yeah, give or take. Yeah. So what do you like to do for hobbies? Um, fixed computers pulled them apart, put them back together. Um, game [00:01:30] testing. And you like building as well? Yeah. And building. Um and yeah. So, uh, what is your sex male? What is your gender identity? Male. Good. You get that question, right? Um, what is your culture identity? This is, um, [00:02:00] New Zealand. European. And what is your sexuality and what? What is your expression? Masculine, feminine or any other type? I don't know. Yeah, Mascular dudes. So, um, when did you realise that you were [00:02:30] gay? About 15? Yeah. Yeah. What happened? Well, I started to get crush on boys. Was it in the class thing? Yeah, and it's pretty hard to avoid the locker roof. Was it noticeable? Yeah. No, no. Did you get to it yourself, Do you think? Did you get a thought where [00:03:00] you had to keep a secret? I kept it a secret for quite a while. It was only about two years ago. I told one of my best mates. Yeah, that's good. So you're out of the closet then? Half and half, depending on who it is. Yeah, like, Well, I've still got the till the rest of my family. [00:03:30] Who have you told so far? Just my mum. How did that go? Quite good. Hm? What happened? Oh, at first I texted her, saying I needed to talk to her, and then she came home. We both sat down and I told her how was her reaction? Oh, she [00:04:00] wasn't surprised, you know? Yeah. I had. I had a feeling she probably knew. I mean, not bringing you home girls or anything. Yeah. You ever seen you with another guy? No, no, no. How did you like, Has she actually? Has she ever asked you a question? Like So, Do you have a boyfriend or do you have a girlfriend or had any of those hints [00:04:30] I did have? Do you have a girlfriend? Hint. I just said no. And that was kind of the only question she ever asked. Yeah. How about what happened when you first told your friend? Oh, he just treated me like normal. So because he is one of my best mates, So Yeah. So why haven't you told [00:05:00] the other parts of your family? Well, because I know my older sister. Uh, yeah, I think they have something against gas or something, So yeah, I'll get there eventually. That's, like, homophobic. Well, yeah, I'll get there eventually. What do you think [00:05:30] their reaction would be if you told them? Uh, probably shocked. Why is that? Um I don't know. Probably because they always expect me to get a girlfriend because no one else in the family is gay. so yeah. Yeah, but no one else apart from me. They know how many. They have a lot of kids, [00:06:00] don't they? Yeah. About off about five five kids between them. And, um, in theory, one in 10 people are gay. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, eight people living in that household? Yeah. Eight people. So So, what's Mason like for you? Uh, it's [00:06:30] very boring. I've seen everything done everything. And yeah, apart from when you notice houses. Um, yeah. Um, yeah. What I do to keep busy is usually go for late night walks and don't come home until, what, 34 in the morning. So you don't really notice anything at night? No. Well, it's hard to notice things if you don't have a light with you, [00:07:00] So Yeah. So, um, are you involved with the gay community in? I'm slowly getting there. It's a new door for you, isn't it? Yes. Have you socialised with any of the gay community? Um, one or 21 or two? Yes. Like often do you, like, hang out? Or I'll text [00:07:30] them or they text me or whatever, but nothing really. Just hang out. Friends. This is more like acquaintances. of It's very subtle, isn't it? Yes, it is. Is an accepting for gay people? Probably not. I'd say your personal opinion, my personal opinion. Why is that? [00:08:00] Well, you can tell how everyone acts around other people, like acting all tough and that so Yeah, that's how I can tell. So you have a lot of support from your mother with your sexuality? Well, with a lot of things, in fact, yeah. Oh, she supports me with everything I do. So, yeah. Were [00:08:30] you scared when you were telling her? Yeah. I was quite scared of what her reaction was gonna be, but yeah. Finally got over it. Yeah. Did she expect anything from you after you coming out? No, not really. She treated me the same. Yeah, she wasn't going to expect. Like, you start wearing makeup coming out of your room with a dress on. No. Bringing boys home. They are part she'll [00:09:00] probably expect. Yeah, you can't. It's inedible, so yeah, yeah, yeah. So do you like living in? No, no, it's a It's a very rural area, isn't it? Yeah. More suburban rural areas. Yes. Just been living here most of my life. Yeah. [00:09:30] Yeah, But, um have you been in a relationship before? No. Really? Yeah. Why is that? I'm getting there. Yeah. Is there actually particular reason? No, not really. You just haven't met the right one or you haven't actually haven't met the right one? Yeah. Start socialising with the community. You got to start socialising more. [00:10:00] Are you planning on moving out from a Hopefully, Yes, Me too. Probably Palmerston North. There's a bit of a community there. You can probably find someone there. Yeah. So, um, how do you meet other people in the community? Uh, online? Yeah. Um, tagged Facebook. I don't know. Free. I don't free. [00:10:30] Have you ever used, like, um, NZD, which is New Zealand? Um NZ dating, I think. N dating dot com or manhunt? No, no, no, no. None of those just tagged in Facebook. In Facebook. Yeah. Yeah. So you you always [00:11:00] use that a lot? Yeah. Nothing else to use. No. Nothing else to use. All the other sites. Have what? Predators. Well, I think all sites have predators, so you just need to know how to philtre the predators out. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. So, um, what is your definition in virginity. Done. Done. Done. [00:11:30] Um, hard question to answer. Um, I honestly don't know what to say. It's your personal opinion, my personal opinion. Well, what I tell my niece she's not allowed to have sex until what? Until I'm dead. Otherwise I'll beat him up. And how old is your niece? Six Told them young. Told [00:12:00] them old and young. So you think it's the first time someone has sex? Yeah, the easy way to answer it. Oh, that's very simple questions. So you haven't been out for long, haven't you? No. Probably a couple of weeks. So have you ever been abused because of your sexuality? No. No, not yet. Not yet. Yeah. [00:12:30] So, um, what is there to do around Mason? Um, nothing. Well, there's Tim and bowling. There's Yeah. You didn't even show me this. Oh, yeah. Um, there's Tim and bowling. There's the movies, and that's probably the only good things. Yeah. Do you know much about as in the [00:13:00] historical thing? No. Why is that? Because I just live here, not researchers, so Yeah, You don't You don't notice these things. Not much of a history person, are you? Those types of people that go out to have a lot of coffee at cafes. If you could afford it. If I really want to. I would, but I'd rather prefer iced coffee. Coffee? Yeah. [00:13:30] That's still coffee. Yeah, but it's like you like your coffee is hot. Yeah, but that's different. It's different. It's totally different. Oh, So what's your plans for the future? Um, find a career that I really enjoy. Goodness. Yeah. Well, [00:14:00] thank you for that interview. You're welcome.

IRN: 650
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_nicholas.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004019
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089313
TITLE: Nicholas - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Masterton; Q12 (series); The Edge; Wairarapa; ZMFM; bisexual; coming out; facebook. com; family; friends; hockey; internet; music; parents; pornography; regions; relationships; rural; school; sex; social media; sport; support; youth
DATE: 8 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Masterton, Masterton, Wairarapa
CONTEXT: In this podcast Nicholas talks about being young and bisexual in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm good. That's good. What's your name? Nicholas. That's good. So where are you from? Born and bred. Very, very. You're being in Mason all your life? Yeah. Yeah. Is there like a hospital around here? Of course there is. Just up the road. Can't see it. How big is the hospital? Pretty big. Yeah. For our size [00:00:30] of that region. Anyway, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Well, sporty active young fella. Um, yeah. Um, yeah. Do a lot of hockey, and I'm very, very productive at school. And yes, So I love being out in the outdoors. Yeah. Do you, um, when you say productive, what do you do that, um, [00:01:00] I get on, get on with my work. But I do still have fun in the process. So it's like, not all silent and sitting here being bored. So it's like, still have a lot of friends around in class talk. Yeah, and but still get on with the work I was going to say when you mean productive. You mean like a theatre? Jazz hands III. I kind of suck at productions singing [00:01:30] jazz. I'm not that talented Are you sure? Very sure. Ok, OK, Um so what music are you into? Always a tough question. Um, basically anything good on the radio. So I was like, anything good on the radio? What's your radio station or the edge or the edge? The main pop [00:02:00] rock Pop rock? Yeah. Everything. R and B charts? Yes. OK, so what is your My sex? My gender. Male gender is different from sex. Sex is what you were born as male and your gender is male. What is your sexuality? Bisexual. What is your cultural identity? My cultural identity. NZ [00:02:30] with very strong European descent. And what? How do you express yourself either feminine, masculine or anything else? I'm a very masculine kind of guy. You don't know. I'm joking. Well, you you you wait till you see me ripping out of deer guts and then question that I'd hate to. If that's you showing [00:03:00] your masculinity, I'd hate to know what you show as your feminine. Anyway, um, moving on. When did you realise that you were attracted to the same gender? Um, kind of got very curious when I was about 13, and then kind of it was a very definite. I was attracted both males and females about 14. 15. Was it like you sit in class and [00:03:30] you realised Oh, there's a boy across the room. Um, no, we must go dance around the gardens. No, it's kind of a kind of bit of subtle subtlety to it. It didn't happen overnight, and it was kind of a long time sort of thing. Did you wait for a denial period? Yeah. For for like, first year. I was kind of a bit iffy on that whole idea. So but then I kind [00:04:00] of came around and like, Yeah, I'm definitely by what, uh, gender do you prefer? Um, I'm kind of very even handed on him. I was like, I, I don't like whatever comes along, comes along. There's no sort of like, Oh, I prefer guys first or I prefer girls first. But it gets very awkward when I kind of like both a guy and a girl at the same time. And either sometimes I'm dating [00:04:30] a guy and then all of a sudden, this girl comes along and it's like, Oh, it's very tough some days to cross your legs when you're like going out. It's like, Oh, there's two good looking people. Hello? Yeah, Especially when there's a when I'm both. Like each of the couples. It's like one of those days. It doesn't come along very often, but it rises a couple every six months or so. [00:05:00] So, um, are you out? Yes. I'm basically out to everyone apart from my grandparents and my immediate family and friends all know. So who did you told First? I. I came out to my friends first and then then came out to my, um, stepfather before my mother and my and then just recently, my [00:05:30] father earlier this year. So what did you tell them? As a bit. How did you tell them? I mean, they they they they've always basically known. Because it's like when you're young and going very hormonal and all that, and you're kind of on the computer and you forget to delete your history. Did they kind of find out I was Oh, dear. So it's like, [00:06:00] Yeah, I kind of keep denying it about it like they knew. So it wasn't that hard. Yeah. Did you ever try to blame someone else with the whole history thing? Um Yes, I did a couple times, but then it's like after a lot of times it happening like it. It like it like no point hiding it anymore. It's like when you kind of go completely [00:06:30] mind wipe about deleting the whole history. It's like, Just forget it. It's like it. I've seen it already. So it's like they know. So have they actually seen the history of, like, pornographic either gay or stretch or both kind of thing? Um, they they've seen little snippets like, But when [00:07:00] I had one of those days when you kind of had those needs and then it's like it's only and then you kind of just mind wipe it and then you bit of a rush, Yeah, you just delete the whole history and everybody kind of thing. Yeah, So, um, how how about your friends? How did you come up to them? Oh, I, I just said, Look, I'm I'm by, Get over it. [00:07:30] And basically I was kind of the catalyst for quite a few other friends to come out as by So they came. So you've been used as the local counsellor for all the quick little kids. No I I haven't, really. I was like, It's like every all my friends were basically accepting and then like, and they were on the my circle of friends as well, like, So I was like, it was one after the other and all that and everyone was pretty sweet about it. Hm. [00:08:00] So kind of good reaction to it. It was very good. It was like nothing changed. So you have a bit of a support system? Yeah, I got about Oh, I've got to count. How many buy friends I have. Um, probably over five or so. My friends at my school alone. Is there a bit of a gay community LGBT community in Madison? Um, no, [00:08:30] There isn't really a strong presence of one. Yeah, there's a There's a little one that started up recently on Facebook. And you are manning the forces? Yeah, it it's been it was kind of bit pressured. At first. I was like, like a lot of other people quite open to the idea, and then some are still questioning it, but yeah, it's like like shall we [00:09:00] have a group? No, there's not enough of us. So we should We should actually be more open. And then and then the boundaries of who? Who's joining? Like if it's a master area, accepting people that were originally from but living in another city for uni or something? It's like a lot of people were questioning that idea. And I was like, I was, like, a bit confusing for me as well. [00:09:30] Where are you going? Do you have any idea how you fix the situation, or do you want to fix the situation? Or do you think it will just fix by itself? Probably fix by itself, because there's a strong group of masters and people in it in it, like, and there's only one or two people that are saying, Oh, what what? What's the point of the group? And the rest are kind of all kind of shutting him down. Yeah. [00:10:00] So, um, have you been in relationships before, right? Yeah. Would you like to talk about them? Um, kind of. They were. They were all right. Relationships. They were kind of a bit down at times, and then it's like they had their moment. Yeah. Yeah. How many relationships have you been in? Been in two guy and guy relationships and quite a few, um, heterosexual ones. So with the relationships [00:10:30] with the same gender, how long did those last? Um, so it lasted about the first one about four or so months, and then the second one, about six months or so. Did you ever, um, keep it a secret about the relationships? Um, in my first one I, I did for a short period. But then it's like after getting caught sneaking [00:11:00] out over over to the other coast and almost getting away with it, it kind of came out. And it? Yeah. And then the then the kind of massive phone bill was the other one. it was it was a pretty strong, like the parents weren't really accepting all of it because the guy was a bit older than me. How much? Um, about eight years old. So [00:11:30] it's not too bad. It was, like dramatic, like, 15 years. Not like I'm against that or anything for the listeners or anything like that. It's just, you know, yeah, Yeah, it was a strong battle, like, kind of he He lived up in Auckland at first, but then moved down to Wellington, and we were at that point. We were going out for months and a bit. And then kind of go and see him at first was [00:12:00] a big, strong no from the parents. So it's like there's a lot, a lot of tension between me and the parents about the whole subject. But then after a while, parents became very accepting of it, you know, kind of like, uh, well, he's staying this person, and we can't really hold him back for too long or he'll start being against us kind of thing. Yeah, Yeah, I guess they were smart in that way, but yeah, but then they [00:12:30] ended up coming being actually very supportive at the end because the relationship did take a bit of a dive because he was very kind of controlling. He was a very dominant person. Yes. Like like what? He without me knowing he would go through my phone and then come and all that and question me about all my friends and all that. Like, I couldn't even hang out with my best friend Laurie [00:13:00] at times because he he he just didn't like him. And like, he didn't even know my friend and it like, but he was like, Yeah, yeah, Well, OK, let's move on. Um, how do you meet other people in the community? Um, I kind of haven't really met anyone from, like personally. Well, I mean, the LGBT community, Um, kind of through, um, online sort [00:13:30] of ways and Facebook and other social media. And then, um yeah. And then sometimes through other friends as well, Like I've met like I met a couple of, um, guy gay and by people through some of my friends and couple of parties as well, so yeah. Yeah. So, uh, what is your definition of virginity? Virginity? [00:14:00] Um, it's kind of like I've got two definitions is my gay virginity and then my, um, heterosexual virginity. And it's like so it's like I haven't lost my straight virginity yet. So it's like I'm kind of only been having sexual intercourse with guys. Why is that? That's just, like, have have basically I've only had [00:14:30] girlfriends before. Before I was 16 and all that and then when I was turned 16, I've only been actually really with guys, and they've kind of always been really corny. It's like it's like when you're that one track mind. Yeah, as I As I recall, there was a saying that males, um, I think about sex every 20 seconds. Unless you're a gay male, then it's nine seconds. Yeah, it's like you. You you try try [00:15:00] to take it slow and then all of a sudden, But if you're on the bed half naked who, um, have you experienced any abusive behaviour because of your sexuality? Um, no. Only kind of like basically, everyone I've known has been very accepting of it. I was like, at first, like like not even the school boys kind of even taunted me about [00:15:30] it. At least they equal about who they bully. Yeah, it's like because we're kind of a strong number of, um at our school. So it's like we all band together. It's quite funny when you actually say that it's like you bag it and then the other boy is like, No, no, you can't do that. It's like like I. I got kind of teased about other things rather than my sexuality. It's, like, so kind of strange, like, you see, all these people get, [00:16:00] um, and like other places, getting just about it and then master, especially my school was just a normal. Is Mason accepting about LGBT people? Um, like like, this is not a big number that I know of. So it's like, but everyone I kind of spoke to is like they're all accepting. It's like but like Like, there's only I think there's only a couple that [00:16:30] have had trouble with, like, family and friends. But then the rest have been plain sailing. OK, well, thank you for the interview. It's finished already. Well, thank you.

IRN: 648
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_brad.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004018
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089312
TITLE: Brad - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 1990s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Australia; Masterton; Q12 (series); Rainbow Youth; Sydney; Wairarapa; abuse; alcohol and drug abuse; children; church; coming out; cooking; crime; education; employment; facebook. com; family; homophobia; identity; mental health; movies; nzdating. com; rape; relationships; religion; sex; sport; support; writing
DATE: 10 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Masterton, Masterton, Wairarapa
CONTEXT: In this podcast Brad talks about being gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm very good. Thanks. That is good. Who are you? My name is Brad. What do you do? I work with Children and families in Marston. That's a mouthful. Are you from Austin? I was raised here, but were you born here? No. Sydney, Australia. First Australian. I was only there for two months. I'm not sure it counts blood and I do support the All Blacks. That's good. That's good. [00:00:30] We'll make that quite clear on the website. Brad and small letters, All Blacks. Even though he's from Australia. This is a very long title. Yeah. Um, so can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Um, I'm 28. I lived here when I was 18 and went to Palmerston Hated it, and I went to Auckland and loved it. Um, got into the I guess the dangerous side of the gay scene up there with the drinking and drugs and [00:01:00] everything, and eventually ended up having a bit of a breakdown and coming back here and getting back into the career that I originally trained for that I thought I would never get back into Welcome to master. Welcome to Masterton. once you leave, Once you arrive, you never leave. And when you do leave, you always come back. Kind of. Yeah. Where was I? Moving on. Moving on. Um, what your hobbies And likes my hobbies, Uh, riding horses, riding motorbikes. Um, hopefully at [00:01:30] the same time? No, not not so much at the same time. Um, the motor bikes are a bit scared of the horses. Um uh, I enjoy writing books for Children. Um, and have them published. Um, and also, I enjoy just sitting in front of a movie with a big block of chocolate and not sharing. How about the ice cream? Depends on the flavour. Like vanilla. Not so much. Anything else? Yeah. You don't like vanilla? Just [00:02:00] too boring. I mean, French vanilla, French vanilla is great because it's it's, you know, French. So it's foreign. So it's, you know, it's, um what's the word? Um distinguished. Distinguished. When you're eating it out of the tub, you know, what's the difference between French vanilla and no vanilla colour? Apart from that, like yellow? Apart from that, you know the difference. Yeah. I think the French vanilla has just been left out of the freezer. too long. I think what it is is that there's actually [00:02:30] they use egg yolks instead of egg whites. Like, you know, they remove the Yeah, that would be very French French. Use a lot of egg yolks in their cooking. I used to be a cook for a living, so Yeah. So, um what is your sex? My sex? Yes, I'm a male. Is that what you mean? Yes. There's reasons why I ask these questions. What is your gender identity? I am gay. That's your sexuality. [00:03:00] Sexuality? Yes. So what would you? Well, you I see that you're also gender identity. Male? Yes. Male is gay. How, uh, what is your culture Identity. I am Caucasian. And how do you You express yourself masculine, feminine, masculine and overtly? No, Just masculine, overly [00:03:30] masculine. Ok, um, when did you realise? Uh, probably about the age of 15, but didn't really accept it till I was 18. That's a good answer. So there was a bit of a denial period. What happened when you first realised that you were gay denial, like you just said, um, I. I kind of thought, um, that, um you know, it's just a phase You know, I've been raised [00:04:00] by a Christian mother in a church, and, you know, and, um, not interesting enough. Not the Bible actually says it's wrong, but, you know, Christian say is so, um so at first I was like, Shit. I know if you put that on the website, but, um, yeah, I can You can say whatever you like, Star Star Star. Um, Yeah, but, um yeah, and then over time, I sort of realised, you know, it's actually not who I am. It's just part of who I am. Yeah, Yeah. Have you was [00:04:30] there sort of phase where you saw, like, a kid in class or an older boy that you had slight attractions to? We didn't have older boys. I just We're not catholic. Um, yeah, definitely my best friend. In fact, growing up, he was very good looking. So, um, so did you ever admitted your attractions to your best friend? No. No. Before I could even get to the stage [00:05:00] where I'd accept it. We We've kind of grown apart. So are you friends at all at the moment when I first came back here because I know he's still around. I tried to get in contact with him, but, um, all his numbers and email and everything had changed. And he's not on Facebook, so I mean, what's with that? But, um um, you can join that that list of people that have been above, but yeah. So, no, we're not friends at the moment. So, um, when did you come out? Um, [00:05:30] yeah, I'm just trying to think, um, when I when I left here and went to Palmerston I anybody I met that asked I was just straight up. Um, and NZ dating helps with that. Um um, but, um, with my family, I didn't tell them till I was 22. Um, and yeah, um, [00:06:00] it was actually, I'll tell you the story because it's kind of funny. Um, we my parents were putting together my sister's 21st guest list, and they were like, OK, so it's Chris plus one because he had a girlfriend, David plus one, because he had a girlfriend. It's my brother's, um Monique plus one, because she had a boyfriend, Aidan plus one, because he had a girlfriend, and I and that was Brad and I was just like, Where's my plus one and then, like, do you have a plus one? And I was like, Yeah, I do, actually. And they were like, Oh, what's her name? What's [00:06:30] her name? And I was like, I really shouldn't have said anything because I I hadn't really psyched myself into doing it yet. So when I took my aside and I said, Well, his name is Adam and she was like, Oh, well, thank you for finally telling me. And I was just like you didn't know And, um and because she was so OK with that. And then I said to my sister, You know, I've got a boyfriend and the first thing she said was, Oh, my God, we can go clothes shopping together. And I went [00:07:00] No, no, no, no. You'd be better off doing that with Adam. He is the feminine one. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, yeah. So did he end up going to the, um, tree first? No, by the time it came around, about four or five months later, Um, he was history. Yeah, I kind of woke up to what he was really like. Oh, dear. Hm. But yeah. Was it a good 21st? Yeah, it really was. [00:07:30] In fact, I was really annoyed because it was better than mine. Were you forced to go clothes shopping with your sister? I still am. And any time I'm like, Oh, I'm going to go and get some jeans and I'm thinking like I know my size. I know my style. And I'm normally just in and out, and she's like, OK, I'm coming. I'll book up the afternoon. Oh, shit. Fricking sisters, man. She would have made a good, feminine gay man. Yeah, you always get that, don't you? Yeah, Yeah, my other sister, you say [00:08:00] to her I'm going to go and get a pair of jeans. She's like, Oh, OK, I need some too. We both in and out in five minutes. So, yeah. Is she a dike? No. No, but, um no, but you're making me very happy. Quite a tom boy. Yeah, Yeah, but, um but ironically, and I don't mean this. I don't say this because she's my sister, but, um, but she's actually like she could be a model, so she's like a tomboy. [00:08:30] But, you know, all the boys go. Ah, in case they didn't record, it was a draw fun times. How many brothers and sisters do you have? I have 55 Big family. Yeah, we're a step family, so yeah. Um, so officially, I have to work this out. Officially, I have one step sibling, 24 siblings and two half siblings. But as far as I'm concerned, I have five siblings. [00:09:00] I'd hate to be at your Christmas party. It gets so freaking loud. And you think working with kids, I'd be used to noise. But, man, my my family is something else. Do you have a quirky family? I don't think you can have that many people and all their partners and their Children and not have a few quirks, especially my older brother. Oh, dear. So, um, when you were in Auckland or [00:09:30] anywhere, for that matter, did you get involved with any LGBTI Q groups? Um, just the ones that got together on a Friday night at my place and drink. I don't think you can pass that. Really? Not that the group. Um no I. I didn't Really Um no, no, they they did actually. Rainbow youth. Um, because of my history of working with Children and youth, they did actually approach me and asked me to come [00:10:00] on board. But, um, it it was a scheduling conflict with my, um my what would have been my main source of income at the time? Um, that the fact, I, um I knew quite a few of the ones that went there, and I wouldn't have felt right. Sort of, you know, being their counsellor, because that's what they wanted me to be. Um, so, yeah. Would that change now? Yeah, because I wouldn't know any of them being so much older now. Um, yeah. I wouldn't [00:10:30] probably, um, of knowing them, and I would happily I mean, I actually do meet, um, on a regular basis with a couple of young gay guys here who are struggling with the whole coming out thing. Um, and they come around for dinner and things, and we just chat. And so, yeah, I could definitely see myself doing that. So, uh, so you have a lot of support in your little circle, don't you? Uh, yeah. Yeah, I do. I've got um I've got my [00:11:00] family who are amazingly supportive, especially I. I I've done a lot of stupid things in my time and um, we all have. Yeah, I've done. I've done some stuff that almost landed me in jail, and and, um, all sorts of stuff, and but my family is still supported me ever since. And, um, I've managed to become really good friends with my very first boyfriend ever. Who? We didn't end on good terms. So we're pretty good friends now, um, and he's pretty supportive. [00:11:30] And if I look like I'm gonna be doing anything I shouldn't be doing, he just goes great. Wake the fuck up. Um, and so, um yeah. So I'm pretty lucky with the sport. Yeah. So, going on to the relationships topic. You You've had a few relationships. Define relationship? No, um, relationships I've had probably sex partners, four serious relationships [00:12:00] and a lot more sexual partners. Um, as in the gay world, we like to call them flings. Yeah, one night stands. Yeah. Um, but, um, I had Yeah, I had one here in master before I moved away. Um, that was the one I just talked about. And then I had one in Palmerston, which is Adam and I talked about. Then I had, um, two in Auckland. Um, I won't [00:12:30] mention them because they do Look on on the website. Um, they'll know who they are. Um, but, um, yeah, um, other than them, I haven't really had any proper relationships. And, um, yeah, it's and mind you're living in a little town like this Doesn't really help, but yeah, yeah, if living in a little town, everybody would know everything. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, And being the typical gays only spread the bad stuff, [00:13:00] so yeah. So, um, so how do you meet other people in the community? Um, we talking people in general or people in the LGBTI Q community? Um, I do interviews. Um, Facebook is a good one. especially since you started the group. Um, and NZ dating helps a little, um and, um, funnily enough, [00:13:30] I've met a couple of lesbians through the church. Um, and yeah, so it's just, um it's as much as I. I think social networking can be really bad. Uh, it's definitely got its good points as well. What is your definition and virginity 15 years ago. No, um, virginity is, um I, I believe, until you've gone, [00:14:00] um, full an, um, in the gay world. Um, that unless you've done that, that you're still a sexual virgin. How about in other terms of virginity? Meaning is there Is there any other terms of in your personal opinion? No, no, not my personal opinion. I probably thought so eight years ago or so, but Yeah, OK. Have you experienced any abuse or abusive behaviour because of your sexuality [00:14:30] or culture? Identity or gender identity? Um, I Yeah, I have, Um I was once raped, um, and by a so called friend. Um, but, um, other than that, I've been pretty lucky. Really? So, yeah, you haven't really gotten any abuse because, like, verbal abuse off [00:15:00] the streets or anything. Um, once I did once. And that was But that was the text directed at the person I was with. Not me, but, um, yeah, it didn't stop me punching the guy. Um oh. Did you say that? Um, yeah, he, uh I mean, this This guy, um, sort of looked at my friend and went, Oh, my God, He's such a fag. And I just went and I went, So am I. He just got beaten up by one, and he ran away, so [00:15:30] Yeah, well, thank you for the interview. You're most welcome.

IRN: 647
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_mahs.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004017
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089311
TITLE: Mahs - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Q12 (series); Whanganui; arts; bisexual; coming out; demisexual; family; friends; gender identity; panromantic; parents; relationships; school; sex; support; video games; visual arts
DATE: 16 August 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Whanganui, Whanganui, Manawatū
CONTEXT: In this podcast Mahs talks about being young, demisexual and panromantic in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm good. Thank you. That's good. What's your name? Mars. Mars. Like the planet or the Mars Bar on the planet? No. Yeah. Mars. You're just from a different planet. Yeah, Exactly. Pretty much. Yeah. So how old are you? I'm 18. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Um, I was born in Australia. I moved here when I was nine years old. And I'm a hairdressing student here at what's your favourite thing to do in hairdressing? [00:00:30] I don't know. Um, I'm really into the asymmetrical real out there stuff, you know? Lady, go. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Try that thing. That's, um That looks like a frozen sneeze. Yeah, exactly. Rule out there. Love it. Yeah. So, um, so how about hobbies or interests? Um, I'm actually a giant geek. I really like video games. Um, I'm [00:01:00] really into art painting all that sort of video game. Yeah, I know. It's horrible. I try not to admit it when I'm not stuff like this. It's not alcoholic. Anonymous. Anyone wants video games? Anonymous? Pretty much. I try to keep that little fact to myself. So you like art? What's your favourite artist. Um, I really like Oh, there's heaps of them. Oh, I don't really know about artists. I really like the art movement. That was a Yeah, [00:01:30] that was really cool. Real Spanish stuff. That's yeah, about it. Yeah, it's my favourite. What video games do you play? Oh, gosh, this is so embarrassing. I really like the survival horrors, which I know like, Yeah, it's pretty bad. Did resident evil Silent Hill hm? Yeah, Yeah, I can see you. Just, uh, just playing like PlayStation or something. Going, like die. You fucking Yeah. Pretty much. Three o'clock in the morning. [00:02:00] So I went online. I was like, Oh, screw you. Yep. With the little headphones. That's me. Yeah. It's horrible with, like, um, a bottle of coke right next to you? Yeah. That. Yeah. I'm not gonna lie. That's pretty much, Yeah. Corn chips, corn chips, potato chips, like, um, any lollies? Yeah. Couple of beers, if I need it. Sometimes it's pretty pretty bad. [00:02:30] I love it. So, um, what is your original sex? Female? What's your identity? Female. And what is your cultural identity? Oh, What do you mean by that? What do you like kind of like See, what culture do you like to be? But you're more involved. Oh, if I say Australian does that count? Yeah. OK, um, [00:03:00] what is your sexuality, Demisexual? Yeah, we haven't used this one for a while. What is demisexual? Um it's basically the grey area in between sexuality and asexuality where you're not sexually attracted to somebody until you're connected with them on a really emotional level. So, um, you're AEX. What is your romantic, then? Are you pan romantic, Lesbian or romantic? Gay, romantic, Straight romantic. Uh, pan [00:03:30] romantic. Really? Yeah. So even though I can still be sexually attracted to somebody, it takes a long time for that to really kick in. Ok, um, how do you, um, when did you realise? Oh, I or the label? I really only probably found out about last year. I think I went from bisexual to pansexual, but pansexual was really on the fence about because it wasn't quite right as well. Asexuals real was it was [00:04:00] a bit too extreme as well, until you found out until I until I heard about Demi sexuality and I researched it and talked to people. And that's what Yeah, that sounded perfect. It was a nice little discovery, Really. It's like, um, it's like the three little Bears. Oh, no, This is too big. Too small, too, too hard. Oh, that's just right. It's a good cheer for me. Yeah, Exactly. That's pretty much it. So, um, [00:04:30] how old were you when you, um, realised that then, uh, 17. Just 18. I think when I figured out about the Dimi sexuality thing, Although I'd been struggling with my own sexuality, probably 12 or 13, I started getting a bit on the fence about it. How are we feeling? You, uh, kind of confused in some ways, Um, some other people at school were coming out as being, you know, bisexual. [00:05:00] A lot of the girls did it, but that freaked me out a lot, so I didn't say anything. Um, a lot of the girls that said they were bisexual back then actually aren't at all a phase phase or yeah, or a label or just to see different. And it scared the shit out of me. So I didn't say a word at all through the entirety of high school. And to worry about my final year, I'd make jokes about it. But I never actually admit at all because, you know, the rumours went around pretty fast. Exactly. Yeah. You tell one person [00:05:30] the whole school knows the half day. Yeah, exactly. I wouldn't even I don't even think I told anybody. Somebody just said it once. He was. Oh, Money's a lesbian. And I'm like, Oh, OK, here we go. Here we go. Yeah, but yeah, they only lasted a couple of months before they died down again. So it wasn't too bad. So not too bad. It wasn't too bad. Yeah. So, um, when are you out? Yeah, Yeah, Fully out. Screaming out. Kind of Probably not screaming out. [00:06:00] Like, if somebody else I'll be like, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. I'm not too bothered. Um, you just you don't bring out a big collection of flags. Yeah. No, I don't. I don't parade it. But if someone's curious, the rain flag goes up and that you start singing born this way. Yeah, Pretty much sometimes. Sometimes our national anthem. Exactly. So, um, who did you come up to first? Oh, actually, my boyfriend at the time. I'm dating my best friend [00:06:30] right now. Um but I wasn't with him. Then, um, I'd been thinking of like, oh, how to explain. I had friends that had been with me throughout the entire figuring out process, but when it came to actually discovering the little demisexuality term, it was actually my best. My best friend. He was sitting next to me and I said something like, Oh, so I'm thinking about coming out to my mum as Demisexual. And he went, 00, OK. He had no idea that I was even questioning anyway. [00:07:00] So, yeah, he was the first person ever. Yeah, my best friend. I think my mom, she ended up being the last person I told. But that's usually the case. From what I've heard from other people, What is the, um what were the main reactions that you got when you told them, uh, parents or friends friends were really supportive? They didn't really care at all, Or most of them said, and you were ready, or they could have guessed. Um, parents? Well, my mom only live with her. She was [00:07:30] really negative at first, Very negative. She said she supported me, but she was really negative about it. For a while because I just told her I was bisexual. Because it's so much easier for her to understand because you told her I was. You were demisexual. She'll be like, Hey, yeah, And then I'd have to explain it, and then she'd get confused. Oh, I can't be bothered. You had to bring out the like, the old white board. Explain that. It all falls under different. My mom is too old for that. So I just said bisexual. Um, I think the first time I told her she was really [00:08:00] she was supportive about it. And then probably about two days later, she exploded. Uh, one of my favourite quotes was I can't believe my daughter is a liquidy split. I Yeah, that wasn't that wasn't very good at all. That was pretty bad. The new one. Yeah, I I've never heard that term myself either. Um, yeah. Mum was quite negative at first. She's still a bit weird about it. She's kind of obsessed with it, actually, she brings it up a lot. Um, like my boyfriend, My boyfriend, Um, people were like, Oh, so how is it like for you, [00:08:30] for your girlfriend? What's with your girlfriend? liking girls too. He thinks it's awesome. Um, obviously, But, um yeah, my mom was like, Oh, you know, don't Don't tell him that you you know that you're bisexual, but who? He's the first one. That you? Yeah, he's the first one that you like. Stop it. Oh, well, yeah, she's quite She's OK with it Now. We don't talk about it, though. Yeah. How about talking about with your partner? Uh oh, no, he loves it. He thinks it's hilarious. [00:09:00] Um, I tell we talk about birds all the time. I think we found a, um a neutral spot. Yeah. Yeah. We found a video on the, um, somewhere of this video. I was like, Hang on. I probably should have went of a weight lifting chick. Um, I don't know where she's from. I know, I know. Like even then, that doesn't sound very good, But she was She wasn't but like when I was telling him like, Oh, I need to show you this video of this weight lifting chick. He was like, 00, weight [00:09:30] lift. I'm like No, no, no. She's like, super lightweight. She thinks she did about 50 KGS this tiny, tiny She was so hot as well. And I was like, You need to see how hot this chick is. And he thought that was so cool. We got really excited that we were talking about this hot chick together. Um, I think he almost died When I said she had a cute butt, he couldn't get over there. I thought that was so cool. So yeah, he thinks it's great. He doesn't mind at all. It's like you could watch porn together. Exactly. Yeah, he thinks it's great. I was dating a girl before I started [00:10:00] dating him. And he likes to tell himself that he turned a gay girl straight, which he didn't but helps him sleep at night or something. I don't know. He loves it. At least he can tell his there. Yeah, exactly. So, um, you've had a bit of support apart from your mother? Yeah. Yeah, Mom does support me, though. I think it's the The Age Group, like her generation makes it difficult for her to fully get through like, um and because I'm an only child. She says that's a bit of a hard [00:10:30] one as well, because she wants grandchildren and all that even though I can, I still like men. She seems to be obsessed with the female part of it. But shrug even though I would have liked full support, I don't mind that the It's it was a bit touchy in the middle. I wasn't surprised it happened at all because of the generation age gap. So that's fine. Yeah. So how did you feel about the reactions that were given that they were good? Oh, not really that surprised because a lot of my friends that I've met [00:11:00] through the years ended up actually being gay in some way or her voice that they were completely fine with it, even though it took me ages to tell them I always knew that they were OK with it anyway, so it was all quite fine for me. I didn't have that much trouble. So, um, you're in a relationship currently And you've been in relationships before that Just a few. Not a lot. Not a lot like the sexuality thing. Kind of puts a bit of a When was your first relationship? [00:11:30] 14, actually with, um, a friend of mine. She was great. She was really cool. We're actually still really good friends now. Um, but that was when I was still really questioning. And I told my mom about one of the other girls at school who said that she was bisexual, and mom was like, Oh, no, it's a phase. It's a phase it doesn't exist. And I was like, Oh, shit. Oops. I'm screwing around. You know, I'm obviously in the phase, so I actually broke up with my friend, which I kind of still regret. Now she knows that we both regret it, actually, but yeah, 14. Yeah, that was the first [00:12:00] one that went for, like, three months. But I've probably only been in about yeah, four relationships my entire life, which is fine. That even seems like a lot to me. But apparently it isn't. So is it like two girls, two boys or something? Yeah, exactly. That. Yeah. Nice and even. And even So, how long have you been with your current partner? Uh, two months next week, but we've been best friends for a ridiculous amount of time. Is he open to sexuality? Yeah. Yeah, he, um he's straight himself. Um, I make [00:12:30] gay jokes at him all the time. Um but he's not bothered by it at all. If someone you know, teasing about being gay, he doesn't understand why that's a bad thing, which is really cool. That's actually great. Yeah, I know. He doesn't understand. Like, why are you teasing about why would I be, you know, upset if he thought I was gay, which is really cool. I tease him about all the time he got, um, glandular fever a few months ago. And the doctor asked him if he had been kissing a lot, and he cracked up laughing. And the doctor asked him if he'd been kissing boys or girls, which was probably the funniest thing I've [00:13:00] ever. I don't understand why gender would matter, but yeah, but he was fine with it. He thought it was funny when mostly I think guys would probably get a bit shitty about asking if they'd been, you know, swapping spit with other boys. But he didn't mind at all. Um, so do you express yourself as a feminine or masculine type way or any other way? Bit of both. Um, I did have a bit of gender identity problems a few years ago that went on for quite a while. Um, every now and [00:13:30] again, they still they still flare up a little bit. Um, probably on the more masculine side of feminine. I dress really girly when I have to, but most of the time, the voice is low. The you know the threat. Pretty much I get I can get pretty up like upper. Sounds horrible. Pretty mouthy. Yeah, I can get pretty mouthy if a boy starts being a bit of a dick. I'm not shy to throw a fist at all, so [00:14:00] yeah. Is your boyfriend Metro? No. Surprisingly no, he isn't. And I like, Hey, I'm straight. No. How are you today? He actually does take the person, but he is, um he is actually a pretty shy, very introverted little dude. We're really makes it worse. Yeah, I know. It makes it even worse. He's really quiet and he'll sit there and he's really polite, and if he's ever going to be mean, he's passive aggressive, [00:14:30] So you can't even tell that he's being mean. He just seems really modest. It's hilarious and really different in that way. I'm quite loud and I move around a lot, but he's quite happy just to sit and be quiet. So, yeah, he could be He could come across as Metro, I think if you let him, But he tries his best not to. He goes out like, Oh, my God. Those jeans do not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He'll be like, Oh, those those Those look a bit off and they will sort of, like, click his tongue or something. So he could He's, like, trying not to like. [00:15:00] Like, he's slowly starting to explode. That malfunction I wanted exactly he could, I think, if he's almost there not quite. Not enough to be called Metro, But I think he wouldn't have to try hard to be able to pass on Metro. Yeah, now that I think about it, just wait till there's a JJ S in. Yeah, exactly. And then he'll be all over it. He'll be working there. Probably manage it. So, um, how do you meet other [00:15:30] people in the community? In the gay community? Yeah. Oh, here we go. This is the video gaming thing again. This is horrible. Horrible. A lot of my friends are a big, you know, horrible video gamer, but I try to keep that out of fast and quiet. Um, but that's how you get introduced. Yeah, that's how I meet them. Like who knew the community love video games? Oh, yeah. There's quite a few of them, Um, a lot of us. Real geeky people. You know, that Armageddon thing? [00:16:00] I go to that every year, just mainly to hang with my friends. I went there when I was first. I was for about 14 with my friend at the time, my girlfriend at the time. And, um, we met heaps of people there. And now it's just where we go to because they're all around the North Island. I think it's mainly because if people like to dress up yeah, yeah, that's Yeah. There's a lot of people that do that there as well. Um, I don't, but I know my friends do, and, um, you'd actually I wouldn't be surprised if you've interviewed some of them. Um, I met them through there, actually. And then through their friends that are gay, we've [00:16:30] all sort of collectively come together. Um, I went to, like through my high school, a lot of people. It's quite a close place, So people usually come out after they finish high school. And when us gays like when we figure out that someone else that went there was gay, we always like I'm friends with heaps of people that I honestly wouldn't have even talked to there at the time. Because we're gay. Like we just connected through that way and through, um, closet space as well. Yeah. When I found out about this place, I was like, Yes, that was so good. I know that you [00:17:00] had the whole two bands. Oh, yeah. What? What are they? The black one says, Love your condom on it. Um, and this one is actually, um, one of my friend little sister's name on it. She has leukaemia, and so we all wear one of em. Charlotte Watson. She, um all of us wear one. Yeah, which is really cool about for about six or seven of us that have one of these and never take it off. I shower and everything. I'm the same, but yeah, and then I come out before. Yeah, I got the love of the condom. Skinny, [00:17:30] um, green party. And in the dark, if it glows in the dark, it's fantastic. Yeah, Something wrong? with my voice. Not my voice. Pronunciation of coming out with words. Um, So what is your definition of virginity? Oh, I've actually had this conversation quite a bit. When you brought it up in the other room, I was like, Wow it [00:18:00] talking about it. Oh, no. When you were in there before and you mentioned it, um, I had this conversation all the time. I think it's a personal thing. Um, yeah, definitely. A more personal thing. Depending. Especially with, like, the religious backgrounds. Like some people say that, you know, um, like, um thing. He said, you know, once the Cherries popped, which is some, but, like literally, I think that can happen just by riding a bike. So I wish I was kidding, But it's true. And so yeah, it depends on [00:18:30] I think it's a personal, a personal thing. I honestly don't even know myself myself. I haven't thought about it that much, but yeah, I think it's a personal thing. Well, thank you for the interview. That's fine. Thank you very much. Not a problem.

IRN: 646
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_dan.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004016
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089310
TITLE: Dan - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Closet Space; Māori; Q12 (series); Tauranga; Whanganui; alcohol; bisexual; closeted; coming out; drugs; facebook. com; family; friends; gay; homophobia; internet; parents; relationships; religion; respect; school; sex; sport; support; takatāpui; violence; youth
DATE: 16 August 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Whanganui, Whanganui, Manawatū
CONTEXT: In this podcast Dan talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm good. That's good. Who are you? Dan. That's good. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? OK, um, I'm 21 and I only lived in for coming on two years, so I'm originally from, um and Yeah, I lived there for a year for college there. Um, [00:00:30] I don't know what else to say about me. Uh, personality, Um, personality, I think is all right. I think you're one of the I'm one of the people that you actually have to. Um I don't know, either love me or hate me. It's one of those things, so it can be quite controversial. So I've heard, you know, um And what's your interests or hobbies? Um, interest hobbies. That's a hard one. I hate that. [00:01:00] I really hate that question. Um, I'm one of those people that I go with the flow and whatever comes my way. I do it like no shit. No shit. I, um Yeah, I. I actually just I I go with the flow and when it comes the way I do it and I like, I like to try different new things all the time, So, um There's all sorts of different stuff I like to do. Kayaking and rowing is real cool, and it's really cool to do it here with the river. And so so [00:01:30] with the muddy water as well. It's not mud, it's silt. I explain it to you Today. Our river is actually relatively clean. It's not as polluted as the river, even though the river doesn't look as bad and our looks weird. But as the we've got a really bad silk problem. And like I said, our river doesn't have much seaweed. So basically it's just sand, and it's quite close to the sea as well. Yeah, we saw it today, but the people who are listening just don't see it. Yeah, what's [00:02:00] close to the beach? The river, of course, rivers are generally connected to um So what is your What's your original sex? Well, I'm definitely not a female man. What's your gender identity? No, that's your sexuality identity. Your gender identity is male. Obviously. Culture, identity, culture, [00:02:30] identity. I'm Maori or New Zealand Maori. And how do you express yourself like masculine or feminine? Or, um, I don't like to live by titles. I think I'm just me, so whatever that is, I have no idea. I am me. I can be a bit of both, Like, you know, when I'm around gay people. Obviously. I'm like, Hey, but, you know, obviously when I'm with the boys, it's like, bro, what's up? [00:03:00] You know, I can be a bit of both. I just be myself. Really? Yeah. Um So when did you first realise? Realise what? When you're about your Oh, OK, um, I started to realise at intermediate school, How did you feel at first? Because I was brought up as a Jehovah's Witness. So at first I was scared because obviously, um, it it is not [00:03:30] really accepted. And, you know, it's sin. Um, well, I don't believe that now, Um, so, yeah, at first I was freaking out, and I didn't want it to happen. Um, that, you know, So in the to me at school, did you, like, see a boy across the class and you felt quite interested in him or something like that? Um, those kind of, um, not as dramatic. It wasn't [00:04:00] like, you know, we looked at each other's eyes and it was love. Um, no, I. I just noticing? Um, uh, Yeah. You know, at intermediate school, you're all young and immature, and, you know, our boys are saying all this shit and all this shit, but in my head, like I would be like, Yeah, yeah, she's But in my head, I'm like, Damn, you're much finer than her. Like it's just crazy. Yeah, I just Yeah, I just felt differently to other people. It's like, Yeah, she's hot. But I just look at her best friend [00:04:30] like, um, yeah, yeah, it's pretty much like that. Yeah. So, um, did you went through a stage where you didn't accept your, um your sexuality? Um, I don't think it was not accepting it. I was just in denial. I didn't believe I was I. I didn't believe I was gay, like, you know, trying to say to myself that it is not who [00:05:00] I am. Um, so yeah. More in denial. Not nothing else. Yeah, Yeah. Um, did you win for a surgery for to keep your six year old a secret? Um, yeah, Yeah, definitely. Um, even to this day, which I don't. But, you know, sometimes I have to, like, be myself and be like, No, This is me. Um, but, um, I left the ministers when I was 16 years old, so I didn't actually really come out till I was, [00:05:30] um, about six towards before I turned 17. So, um, what was what was going with this? What did I ask you? Did you feel that you had to keep a secret? Oh, yeah. So, um, after I left, I was, like, 16. And then there was a time period where I got into the alcohol, the drugs and all that stuff. Um, after that, I started going to another [00:06:00] church where I became a Christian and so obviously being involved with the church and stuff. Then there were times where obviously, I was scared because, you know, uh, so there there are many times I had to keep a secret, um, in saying that, um I don't believe you know, some people say, Oh, I came out of the closet and I announce it to this person. I don't believe people have to announce, you know, go around telling people because, you know, no one walks into a room and says, Oh, by the way, guys, I'm straight. So I didn't feel that I had to do that myself. So when [00:06:30] it came to church and other things like that, I didn't actually tell anyone. Um, you know, I did come to a realisation. Yeah, I'm out, You know, not in the closet or anything. Like I don't believe in being in the closet. Um, so I didn't actually, I didn't announce it to anyone, so But when it did come across when someone did, like, you know, nudge, nudge. Hey, by the way, are you gay? And, like I could say to myself, Yeah, I am. But then saying it to people and actually saying it to them was a bit real and nerve wracking. So I think that's the only sort of way that I didn't come out to people [00:07:00] saying So who Who was the first person that found out that you were gay? Oh, that's really hard. Um, I think the first people I really actually told were my you know, strangers, you know, they don't care. But I told my sisters, but and my mom it was real funny how I told her, but anyway, it came when [00:07:30] I first came out. It was bisexual. So, um you know, I would tell. You know, my mom and my sisters, I was like, Yeah, bisexual. But it obviously changed since then, and it sort of just progressed. I really didn't have. I don't Yeah, I don't really have that. That's why I find this question so hard because no one really found out per se. I just carried on with my life and Yeah, that's hard. Yeah. Does your family know? Yeah, yeah, all of my family know, Um And to be honest, I am the only [00:08:00] gay person in my family. The only one that I know of. Yeah, there could be more out there. I have no idea. Um, majority of my family are Jehovah's Witnesses, Um, and other religions. But that's the main one. so, yeah. How did they react when they got out? My mom. It was real funny when I came out to my mom because, um, my sister didn't really care. They were just like, Oh, that's cool. Um, my mom, um basically a [00:08:30] guy that I was going out with at the time, um, we had taken photos of ourselves, and they're obviously not photos that straight guys do like we were in bed, like, shirts off. And we like you like she is. And, um, I got into an argument with her, and what I did is I stuck a photo as my screensaver, and I got into an argument with my parents, and I was so fucking pissed off. So I grabbed my phone and I threw it at my mom, and she picked it up and she saw my screensaver and this picture of me and my partner at the time. And, um, she [00:09:00] just looked at it. She was like, Oh, so so you're gay. I was like, Yeah, she was like, Oh, that's cool. That's cool. And then, um, that was a good we didn't really talk about it. Um, we didn't really talk about it for, like, ages. Um and then I, um Oh, what happened? Um, then another time she spoke to me. She was like, Oh, that's I really don't mind you gay. Um, the only thing that hurts me the most is I'm not going to get grandchildren from you. And I cracked it. Oh, it was so funny. Um, my dad, he actually, you know, because I've been [00:09:30] I've been gay for a while. So I came out when I was, like, 16, and I'm now 21. Um, my dad actually didn't find out to like, um my my real dad because my parents were divorced. So my real dad found out probably 2010. Um, and I didn't tell him. I told my stepmother and she goes, Do you want me to tell your dad? And I was like, Yeah, you can tell him and he hasn't spoken to me about it. Um, you know, um, he has said, you know Oh, you're still my son in love You and blah, blah, blah. Um, my stepdad, he actually didn't find it until last year. My [00:10:00] mom and sisters knew all this. I said he was having a conversation. It was Christmas, actually, last year, and he was having a conversation with one of my uncles. You know, they had a bit to drink, and he was like, I think my son's gay And I heard him and I came out and I was like, Do you know, I heard everything he said and he goes, Oh, no, sorry, sorry. And I was like, No, I am he goes. Oh, it's great. You still my son? And it was cool. My parents really don't mind each of their owners, but our family has always been like that, You know, they don't care. Whatever anyone wants to do. That's quite funny. I think my son's gay. Yeah, yeah, basically, [00:10:30] I heard them talking, and I was so awkward because I was with my cousin. We were in the kitchen and they were, like, in another room. And, um, yeah, I was just like he was talking to my uncle and my uncle was so funny because I was like, No, he's not gay. He's not gay. It was funny. And I came and I was like, you know, I can hear you. And I was with my cousin, and I was like, Can you, like, hear what they're talking about? She was like, Yeah, just tell him. So I just like I was like, Yeah, I am. He was like, Oh, that's all good. So what does it say? You already know you or your uncle already knew there? No. No, I don't know. [00:11:00] Um because I I always been the way I am. So it sort of they just know me as me. So to put a toddle on it, it was sort of I don't know if they were in denial as well, because my uncle was like, No, he isn't gay. And, um, you know, my dad was like, I think he is. I think he is. Yeah, it was real funny. It was so funny. So you've always had support, in a way, because you're always yourself. Yeah, basically. Nothing really changed. Um, it was real funny, Um, and being [00:11:30] in the church at a young, I had a really good friend, and he's still one of my really good friends. And he, um, you know, because I was gay, but I hadn't told him anything. And, you know, I was going to tell him if he would have asked me, but he never asked me years after years after years, he never asked. I was like crap. Well, you know, we've been friends for such a long time. I had to tell him, you know, and it was real nervous. I was so nervous to tell him. And, um, I just told him and he goes, Oh, you're still Dan. So it was really cool. Um, yeah. Friends and family are still everything's [00:12:00] great. Yeah, that's good. So, um, have you So you've been in relationships before? I've been in a few few, which is, um is this a few like tens, or what's your definition in the view? Um, I don't know. I have I've been in a few relationships. Um, I. I just I think I haven't found the right person like I've never been dumped. I've never dumped, but it's always been a mutual decision where Hey, this isn't [00:12:30] working. And you know, obviously when you're in a relationship where you're doing something and you feel it isn't working and you both feel that way, then it's so easy just to think, um, I've been in relationships where it's been, Um um, a few years, um, I've been in relationships where it's been a few months, and then I've been in relationships where it's been a few weeks where we thought it was, you know, the way we're supposed to go and then, you know, after a while, a couple of weeks and you're thinking maybe it isn't the best decision. So that is what we had to come to as a conclusion. Yeah. [00:13:00] Um, I don't actually, I haven't counted, so I have been so many places in the country that it's like a new person every day. Not every day, but every location I wish, but no, actually, not about. Have you had a relationship when you when you've lived here? Yeah. Um, yeah. I have only had one good one. Well, like one long one that I thought was right, But no, um, I've [00:13:30] had, but I had about two, which is decent. I think it's right. So, um, how do you meet other people in the community? That's really crazy. That's that's you're asking me all the hard questions, man. That's real hard. OK, um, how do I meet people? OK, obviously with, um, in space closet [00:14:00] space? Yeah, obviously with close space, I don't actually, uh, it's not through this. Um, this is specifically I keep this completely separate to anything else. Um, it's real crazy. That's a hard question. Because I know a lot of people not only in, but, um, throughout the country we were talking today. I was like, I know I know everyone. Um, but it's real crazy. Um, I have No idea. It basically just kind of come towards you. I think it's the whole Facebook thing. You know, um, sometimes I [00:14:30] add people and people add me and then it comes into conversation. And then, hey, I'm in, You're in and it's just like, whoa, people come through to the city and they're like, Oh, I'm sing And I'm like, OK, cool. And that's Yeah. Other times it's just been at parties or whatever. I've been around the place, has a lot of gay people, a lot of gay people that, you know, people think, Oh, because a city is very conservative. But there are a lot of people who, um there are all the gay people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, what is your definition of virginity? [00:15:00] My definition of my own personal definition. OK, um, I think it's obviously someone who has not had sex. Someone who has not had any sexual interaction. Um, that's yeah, basically, um, it's a real hard one, too, because, um, yeah, that's what I believe. It is obviously someone who's not had sex and not had sexual interaction. Um, I, I believe that someone [00:15:30] could lose their virginity, and, um, you know it doesn't. I don't necessarily feel that it is sex per se, but you know, you can intimately, you can be intimate with someone without sex. So that's sort of you know, someone you've given someone your heart, and that's a piece of you. It's like giving someone your body. I don't know. You know? You know what I say to Have you ever experienced abusive behaviour or abuse because of your [00:16:00] um um what do you mean, any of this? Because, like from from me, from me, Like from other people to me. Um, I actually haven't. No, I've never Um OK. 01 time, OK, it's only ever happened once I was in Palmerston North in the square, pissed as and I seen this girl that I know and I was like, Oh, hello. And we're, like talking away. And then I left from her and I was walking along and, um there had been some guys that [00:16:30] had walked past and obviously were hearing me talking and me and her obviously, and he come up to me and he was like, Oh, are you gay? And I was like, Yeah, yeah, like because I've never been shy of it, and he randomly grabbed me by the head and, like, punched me in the face. That's the only time that that's ever happened. Um, and it was so funny because, like after that happened, I was like, What the hell? Because there was there was three or four of them. And then I went to this caba store and I was like, Can you find the place as I rang the police? Because the CT TV cameras actually all throughout the square. So there were already police, like, basically there [00:17:00] I left, so it was real cool. Um, the other times I get, you know, get, um, get random people will be like, faggot or whatever down the street. That really doesn't affect me in any way. Like, um, a lot of people find the words faggot. No shit. They find it quite offensive as a as a gay person. I really honestly don't care. And I'm just like, yeah and proud, or someone will walk past. And like, I think he's gay. And I'm like, Yeah, you all right? I love it. I. I don't actually. [00:17:30] That's the only thing I've never really had not been any better than that. And, um, I've been drinking with so many, you know, from Gangsters to all sorts of different people. And, you know, I think that if you show respect to them, they will respect you back. I know some gay people can be quite creepy. Um, and try and come on, come on. To people that obviously don't want to. And then you, you they can cause strife for themselves. But I feel that if there's mutual respect, if you respect people, they respect you back. So, like I've [00:18:00] said, I've drunk with, you know, gang members and gang people who generally they they don't drink with gay people and would, you know, beat them up, obviously, and call them bed words. But I think if you if you can be one of the bros and just respect them and where they're at and I think it it goes the same way. So, yeah, um, and like, I've got my local bar here in. And, you know, my bar is a lot of older people. Well, not old, like, wrinkly old, But you know, a lot more mature people that go there, and [00:18:30] obviously some of them aren't used to the whole gay scene. But, you know, I can walk in there. I'm hugging all the ladies in there. I'm calling everyone auntie. And this is my man. They're not actually related to me. And I can sit with a big table with middle aged men who know I'm gay and you know, they've got no problem with it, because I don't I don't invade their territory, but I become a part of them. You know what I mean? So yeah, yeah, I respect everyone. So I think it comes back to you in the end, I don't poach. Well, thank you for the interview. [00:19:00] Good. Is that it? That's great. Thanks.

IRN: 645
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_jamie.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004015
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089309
TITLE: Jamie - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Argentina; Māori; Q12 (series); Rainbow Room; Whanganui; bullying; coming out; employment; friends; gay; homophobia; internet; karate; relationships; school; sex; sexuality; takatāpui; travel; youth
DATE: 16 August 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Whanganui, Whanganui, Manawatū
CONTEXT: In this podcast Jamie talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? Hi. I'm good. Thank you. So you're 20. I always say that I'm 18, and I think I can get away with it. Do you get away from it? I do. I do get away with it because I don't know. It's just the way I hold myself, I guess. Do you have interest about hobbies? Um, well, I'm a black belt in karate, so I teach karate. No. Oh, well, you know, I just it's about like, I'm also defending myself, you know? [00:00:30] You're sure you can I'll probably get pissed off with a lot of people. But, you know, I don't care how angry I get and go and hit somebody, you know? I mean, like, growing up, you know? Um, no, they're very good. Oh. It's just weird. Like, um sorry. Like growing up would be like, you know, Dad wasn't so appreciative of what I who I am and, you know, like, probably like, you know, you know, and like, knock you around a bit And, you know, which is kind of, [00:01:00] you know, I think is quite common in New Zealand culture. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, What is your original sex? Male Male. And what is what is your gender identity? And what is your culture? Identity and what is And what is your sexuality? Gay. Flamboyantly gay, Flamboyantly gay. Which answers my next question. How do you express yourself? [00:01:30] What do you mean? Like, how do you, um masculine, feminine transvestite. It's just so funny Because, like, you know, I think like, I always liked boys. Like I've always, like, kind of like boys, but I like, like, kind of like girls, but not as much as girls, because you, um it wasn't until I got a little bit older that I kind of actually like, you know, it's like a mental thing, like, you wake up and you're like, Hi, I'm gay. And that's just how it [00:02:00] is, you know, And like, that's kind of what happened to me. Like it was kind of like, you just wake up and I was like, Oh, I'm gay. You know, you just kind of like sense of mental realisation that this is this is who I am, and this is what I'm going to be. So Yeah. So that was pretty cool. When did you realise I think, um, like, I'm 22 now, but I think I realised, like, when when I was, like, 20 or something. I actually [00:02:30] realised that Well, you know, like, I'm actually like gay, But I didn't really think about it when I was, like, 18 19. So, yeah, I didn't really think about it then. But, like, now that I'm more of an adult and, you know, going out to clubs and stuff and, you know, just scanning the room and what you're into. It's like like there'll be a girl and there'll be a guy. My eyes go straight to the guy, you know? So, [00:03:00] yeah. Um, So when you were in high school, you didn't think about it? No, I didn't really think about it as such. Like, I didn't even actually realise it. Then I was just Yeah, but guys and guys and girls would be like, Oh, you're gay. You're there. You're like I was like, Hm. No, I'm just flamboyant. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the one. I just Yeah, I'm just Yeah, as you say Metro. Totally so, Yeah, [00:03:30] until you became much older and you start having the attractions and you realise, like you just wake up? You just wake up out of bed one day, and you're like, Oh, my God, I like boys. You know, it's pretty funny. Can I just Can you try and make a deep voice? Oh, I do this one all the time. Hey, guys, what's up? My name's Jamie. Oh, my God. It's so funny. Yeah, but I think you can still pass away as a gay male from their Yeah, totally. But like, [00:04:00] it's so funny because I'll be on the phone and they be like, Who is this? Is this Jamie? And I'd be like, Look, it's me. And they were like, Oh, my God, So you know, it's pretty funny. I do that to some of the customers at work as well, and they're like, Oh, my God, who was that? You know, they're like, Who is that here? And I was like, It was me. It was just me and this voice that that's completely different. I totally right. I mean, [00:04:30] it was just like and then they were like, Oh, is that your natural voice? And I was like, No, no, no, no, no. That's like that's just my man voice that has a crack out. Everyone gets cracked up every time they hear her because they're like, Oh, well, that didn't even sound like her. I was like, Yeah, no. Right. So, um, are you out? Oh, totally out. Totally out. I also used to wear, like, a lot of makeup. I mean, I still do wear a lot of makeup, like the eyes and the mascaras [00:05:00] and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, um so, yeah, I was Yeah, I've been out for, like, a couple of years now, like, yeah, I was like and I was like, Yeah, but because I work in such a I think working in such a such a job, like I have to be equipped to deal with, you know, not just kind of those the other people, but I have to be dealing with, like, customers as well, [00:05:30] like their people. So I realise that, like, even though I'm gay, I think the job has helped me to adapt, to be, like, have a more of a tough kind of look after myself kind of type, you know? So, yeah. So, um, so how does it affect your work being openly gay. Um, I just tell it how it is. Like Like I know, just, like forgive [00:06:00] me things, so But I just don't really give a shit. I don't give a fuck what people say. Did you pause that? No. Oh, it's so funny. You're allowed to say whatever you like. Oh, I love it. Um, you know, So I just kind of like I just don't give a shit. You know, if you don't like it, then maybe you shouldn't work here. Then, you know, So I'm not going anywhere, so I think I, I think I, um like, I think I've even changed some people's perspective just [00:06:30] by working with me. Like I remember, like, a couple of years ago. And even, like still today, like, some of the workers are like, Oh, my God, He's so gay. Ra ra ra. Oh, my God. And then they'll work with me, and they'll realise that I'm not actually like a like a bad person. You know, I'm not even into you. Like how you know, don't even flatter yourself to even think that. I think that you're so hot that I'm gonna you know, go there with you. so it was pretty. [00:07:00] So the customers have Have they been all right with it? Um or do you do the tours at all? Yeah, all the time. I'm always up there and, um, yeah, they don't They don't care, because I'm gonna be so conservative like when they see me doing that kind of thing. They're like, Oh, my God, Not to him and all that kind of stuff, you know? So it's like, um yeah, because is just so conservative. A lot of people are saying that that is [00:07:30] very conservative. It is. It really is. I mean, you don't you know, just in terms of being, like, even like, being different, like people who are, like, you know, like Bogans or something, or people who have bright coloured dreadlocks or, you know, anything that's different from the normal normality of that. Um, city is just, you know, they they look at it as if it's a taboo kind of thing, you know, But like whereas in, like, [00:08:00] Wellington or Auckland or Palmerston, even it's quite acceptable to, I don't know, walk around and do that kind of thing, you know, or hold hands with a guy or a girl, you know, so yeah. Yeah. So, um, that Oh, my God, that lighting is really bad. Sorry. Yeah, like hurting your eyes all afternoon. It's I guess there must be, like, 100 watts or something of [00:08:30] that. Have you been in a relationship before? I have and like Like, it's not even long, but I mean, it's like, I don't know, 68 months. Is that your only? Yeah. But, I mean, I'm thinking that that's just because, like, I'm in and like, if I had went to Auckland or Wellington, I'd have a boy straight away or a string of boys. I think you know. So, um, that's why it's [00:09:00] been pretty hard to get, um, boyfriends in this town And also because they're like assholes in this town, and, you know, they're not very nice to look at. So, like, I want a man that's, like, really strong and tough and, you know, maybe not for you. You just what's your time? Oh, I can't say that in this interview. Really? Oh, my God. OK, um, so yeah, that's have you had with [00:09:30] your relationship? Yeah. Have you dated anyone else? Um, we've been on a date with anybody else? Uh, yeah, only one guy, though. It's pretty, it's pretty awkward because we, you know, we just don't know. Like there's a thing like even in straight relationships. I don't know what they're doing, you know, they're quite nervous. So I think it's kind of going on like a first date or a date of any kind is kind of a bit. It's universal [00:10:00] way you take it to McDonald's. He's like, we're going to McDonald's for our dad. I'm like, Fuck up. Let's go to Burger King. He's like It would be funny if I worked at McDonald's and he worked at Burger King Love at first sight like, OK, compromise. Let's go to KFC. So it was like, um, Romeo and Juliet. I'm I can be Adam and Steve. Adam. So you Arthur or Martha [00:10:30] Hello? I have, um how do you meet other people in the community? Um well, I kind of made up my mind, like like because I Because I know that it's and I'm not going to be here for, like, much longer, maybe like another. I don't know. 6 to 8 months saving up to like to get away from this. Hello. So you know, where are you going to go? Well, well, totally. [00:11:00] Politics, politics, politics. So, you know, in parliament they have a rainbow room. Was it room in that context? Well, it's a room. That is for people who are gay or not. Queer or queer, Friendly to go to and hang out. Really? Like, um, yeah, Well, generally the Rainbow Youth. Yeah. Generally it was for [00:11:30] the Rambo room is for schools, you know, for school, queer groups with the gay people where people can hang out. But they have one in the Parliament. Oh, my God. I think it's so great. I have no idea. I don't think a few months ago, so Oh, my God. I still want to go I. I think I'm going in a couple of months anyway, so Oh, my God. You have to, like, take pictures. I mean, I think it's so great. I've never heard of a [00:12:00] rainbow, let alone in a parliamentary building. Someone died. Um, what is your definition of virginity? Virginity? I don't know. Like, that's a weird one. First thing. Oh, my first. Are you asking about my first thing? No, No, No. What is your definition? So how do you define virginity? [00:12:30] Hm? Um, I don't know. Like, maybe the first time you do it with someone, I think the first time you do it with someone. And you have your virginity? Um, yeah, I think it's always you can always remember it. Do you remember? Yours can remember their first time or when they lost their virginity. So, yeah, Unless you're very drunk that night. Oh, of course. And then it doesn't count. [00:13:00] You remember? Oh, yeah. And plus, if you can't remember your first time, then are you sure it even happened? Absolutely. Of course. Of course. So have you experienced or gotten any abusive behaviour because of your sexuality? Um, sure, I have. Like, um, like, when I was like, a kid growing up, um, going to a Maori school like Maori oriented school. It was [00:13:30] like, um, you know, it wasn't pretty. It was pretty, pretty horrible there because, you know, you've got, like, all these Maori boys there, and they're like, What the fuck are you doing? And they're like, you know, you shouldn't act like that, You know, um, I think like again my job comes into play with that because I, you know, deal with people like that all day. But instead of my sexuality, it's burgers or something. And they had, like, they had a fry missing from [00:14:00] the order. And, you know, like, I think a kind of a fry. Oh, you know, like fries now, like, what you going to say? You have a bunch of fries and they had a bunch of fries, and they had one fry. Oh, da da. You, um, so, yeah, but now I just I just really don't care, because, I mean, there's this new confidence that I found now that because I'm like, I'm leaving this [00:14:30] town to go to a a better, more accepting town, you know? But at the same time, I don't want to leave. I just want to push this in their face. You know, I just wanna like here I am, be like, Yeah, And, like, shove that in their face and that just, you know, um, so, yeah, it's pretty fun. Yeah. So thank you for the interview. Oh, you're welcome. Nice to meet you.

IRN: 644
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_david.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004014
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089308
TITLE: David - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Closet Space; Japan; Māori; Q12 (series); Whanganui; abuse; adoption; anxiety; coming out; facebook. com; family; friends; gay; homophobia; internet; isolation; karate; marriage; music; relationships; sex; social; social media; takatāpui; youth
DATE: 16 August 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Whanganui, Whanganui, Manawatū
CONTEXT: In this podcast David talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm good. Thanks. What's your name? David. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Um, yeah. Sometimes I'm shy, and sometimes I'm outgoing. But yeah, If I don't know the person really well or we don't connect, then Yeah, then. Yeah. Interest or hobbies? Interests or hobbies? Um, Japanese karate [00:00:30] music. Piano? What type of music do you like? I'm classical and club music. House music. So what type of classical, like Mozart or something like that? Yeah, Just many classical piano. Um, So how old are you? 2020. And what is your, like, original sex male and gender identity. So, um, my gender identity. [00:01:00] Um, I've always thought that mentally I'm female. Well, that's what I've been thinking. I don't know, but I'm content with my body, so I don't know. I'm I think I'm a bit of both. Maybe that What is your culture? Identity, culture, identity. Like my ethnicity? Um, Maori. And what sexuality are you gay? And what is your [00:01:30] always forget this question. Who is having written it down? Um, how do you express yourself? In what way? Feminine. Mexican. Um, I different around different people. So I can get mascular ones, um, around some people feminine around others that I feel comfortable with a bit of both. Yeah. So when did you realise that you were OK? May, um I didn't actually, [00:02:00] like realise II. I didn't actually realise that I was gay, but, um, I just, like, knew it all along. It didn't come. I didn't come to a realisation or an epiphany or anything. So, um, was it more like a I've always liked boys. Yeah. It's like I've always liked boys. So you were born and this rainbow came out. No, I'm not a rainbow. Um, since [00:02:30] I was seven, maybe I started liking guys. I didn't I didn't like them sexually. It's just like an inclination of some sort. I don't know. I don't know what it was. It was, like, weird. So did you ever go through, like, a denial stage? A denial? Yeah, when I was when? When I was 12. To, like 19. Yeah, I just I [00:03:00] don't know. I just, um I didn't really think I was Well, I tried to convince myself that I was like, I don't know, asexuals like that. I didn't like guys at all but kept looking down. If I looked, if guys looked at me or I was afraid to look at other guys and yeah, that sort of denial Not like saying I'm not gay. I'm not gay. [00:03:30] It's like rejecting the idea that I that I like guys. It's just Yeah, I think I thought I was asexuals. I try to be done. Yeah, Yeah, it was a bit confusing back then. So what happened that made you accept that you were OK? I don't know. I was just watching YouTube videos, and there was, like, really inspirational people on there that I found, like, [00:04:00] um, people like or Chris Crocker? No, not really. Yeah, he has some good speeches, but he's a bit of a clown sometimes. So look at his makeup. Yeah. Danny Noriega. Um, Gregory Gorgeous. Yeah. There's people like that on YouTube, like, inspirational people [00:04:30] that I that, um, that I just decided to, like, express myself more. Yeah. So, um, have you ever thought they had to keep your sexuality a secret? A secret? Yeah, all the time. Like I would never ever think of coming down. If someone said you're gay, You're gay. They always said that. I said, No, I'm not. No, I'm not. I never said that. I like girls. I just say I'm not gay. So, um, are you [00:05:00] out? Yeah, I'm out. Yeah, Yeah. Are you out to everybody? Yeah, or I just I don't like that concept out because, um because you feel you feel like you have to explain yourself to the world. And really, no one else has to, like, straight people don't go outside and say I'm outside or I'm straight or I'm out of the Yeah, Yeah, I've always just been me so But when people [00:05:30] ask now, I'll just say yes, I am. If they question, then I'll just say yes. So, yeah, basically, I'm out. So, um, how was the when you came out to some people did. How was their reactions? Um, or I was forced down like by my sister because I told my sister because, um, I don't know. She was going away to Australia for, like, several months. [00:06:00] Yeah, I told her, and then she's like she was like, pretending she was OK with it. I was like, Oh, I'm putting on that little smile. But really, she was not OK with it. And then when she came back, um, yeah, she started bringing it up all the time. Like saying like, horrible things like, Hm, they get this or that And she was like, Think it's normal or say I don't believe in gay marriage or adoption [00:06:30] like I didn't feel comfortable just coming up to her because she's like abusing my trust a little bit. So then, um, we started arguing one night, I don't know over something I don't know. And she said, Do you want me to tell everyone I'm like, Tell them what I'm like. She was like, pressuring me to tell, and I just said Whatever, and I just told everyone I just said, I just said I'm gay. Yeah, in the lane, [00:07:00] they're like, staring at me and they're like, No, you're not. No, you're not. They're like shouting at me like saying right, there's no they get in my family like just the normal basic stuff that you hear. It's like typical and, um, yeah, and I started bursting out crying. I was like packing my stuff to move out, going to my grandmother's. I didn't come up to her yet they probably rang her. I tried to ring her, like, the next day, and she [00:07:30] found out by them obviously. And she didn't want me there either. So I just had to stay home and I was forced to get a job at McDonald's. My God, they used to pay for everything. Like my education. I had a car like, uh, it's just awful, like they just stopped doing everything for me. And I was forced to sort of, like, be independent on my own this year. [00:08:00] And, yeah, so that's my horrible coming out experience. Yes, for friends. Um, I was pretty isolated growing up because, um, I went to collegiate. Then I stopped collegiate because I don't know why. Because I was I developed social anxiety, and, um, it was hard for me [00:08:30] to make friends because I don't really open up that well. It was been it's hard. Been like opening up to my friends, right? Right now, because, um, because of your social anxiety Yeah, um I knew I came out to Jamie on Facebook, and then he called me and told me to come over and we started hanging out, and he told me about closet space, and I started going to closet space and yeah, basically it. [00:09:00] Yeah. So how about other friends before you went to closet space? Um, I only had, like, two good friends, Andrew and Slayden. Yeah, Um, that only lasted, like, two years and two friends in the intermediate was, like, hit him. I only gravitated towards gay people. Well, they didn't identify as gay back then, but yeah, just I didn't have [00:09:30] that many friends right now, just Yeah, but when you go to McDonald's, you search getting friends, and, um, I wouldn't call them my friends like acquaintances, but they have They started becoming, like your support group. In a way, Yeah. Closer space. Yeah. It's been a really good support group. I think we need more, um, more LGBT, um, groups out there because it's really isolating out there like, Well, [00:10:00] that's what I felt because, like, um, you can't identify with anyone else because everyone's, like, got girlfriends, boyfriends or whatever, and yeah, mhm. So, um, so your support kind of thing? Yeah. If you ever needed someone or anything like that to talk to Yeah, I would just, like text them, but some [00:10:30] of them don't text back. So not like that. I'm asking for heaps. It's just like, yeah, but most of them are busy or doing other things. Like it's like, I don't know. I can't really confide in, like, really, really confide to them because I'm like, we're not really, really close. We're just like, I don't know, just friends. Not past the close friends or best [00:11:00] friends or anything. Just friends. So, um, have you been in the relationship before? Um, no. Have you had crushes on guys? Heaps. Heaps? Oh, my God. He's in work. How about how about a crush on someone who is gay and someone who's gay? Hm? No, I don't think so. No one else that [00:11:30] I know of. Fair enough. Has, um, your social anxiety affected that in some sort of way? Yes, definitely. Um, I like to stop myself from looking at other guys because, um, yeah, I just get anxious that they might be straight or something, or I don't know, they might reheat me or it's mainly not knowing that if they're straight or gay, that's the main thing. If they're like gay, then maybe [00:12:00] I'll become a bit more open but not overtly that I Skype to them. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, how do you meet other people? Other people, like in the community, through space or Facebook? Um, through my work, I meet a lot of people like I do like the front counterparts, So, yeah. Um, yeah, Just a lot of random people, and they say hi on the street, and I actually don't know them, [00:12:30] but they know me because I'm, like, pretend that I'm happy there because you have to smile and say hello. Hi. McDonald's How may I help you? Can I have a big, big combo with extra cheese And, like, meat like chicken in the middle? Yeah. Special grows like that. So, um, what is your definition of virginity? Virginity? Um, not having [00:13:00] an orange oral sex. I think that's the definition. Do you think there's a different? Um, it could be a different version of virginity or, um, different to, like virginity. I've always thought of it as like a sexual thing. Like not having sex at all. Do you think? Could be an emotional thing as well, emotionally. What do you mean, emotionally [00:13:30] like? Well, in some ways, people have a slight personality change when they first have sex for the first time, they can either be more mature or be more. I don't know. Be something else or emotionally. Yeah. You mean not get affected. Or some people have Don't get affected. Some people do. Some people fall in love with the person They, um, had sex for the first time. I've always Yeah. [00:14:00] I don't think it's an emotional thing. I I've never seen it that way. I get I sort of see it like the innocence And, like, not getting emotionally like involved or other. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Anyway, um, thank you for the interview. Cool. Thank you.

IRN: 643
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_name_withheld_8.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004013
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089307
TITLE: [name withheld 8] - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Closet Space; Manawatū; Q12 (series); Whanganui; bullying; cis male; counselling; family; friends; gay; health; homophobia; internet; music; relationships; school; sex; sexuality; support; youth
DATE: 16 August 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Whanganui, Whanganui, Manawatū
CONTEXT: In this podcast [name withheld] talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? Good, thanks. That's good. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Um, I'm 19 and I'm doing my studying my bachelor of arts through open polytech in next year, I'll be going to Victoria, and I'll hopefully major in history. Yeah, from? Yeah. Been here all your life? Uh-huh. And do you have any hobbies? Um, I like music. Um, I know. Really hanging out with my friends. [00:00:30] Big variety of music. Yeah, Lots of different kinds of music. I don't play anything, though. What type of music? Like eighties like New Wave and I know lots of different kinds. Madonna, Grace Jones. Yes, yes, yes. Singing with slaves. The rhythm with a Hello? Crying around? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So you're 1920 in December 20 in December? Yeah. And [00:01:00] what is your gender identity? I'm a cisgender male. So I was I'm biologically male, and I identify as male, you know? You know what? That is brilliant. What culture do you identify with? Um, that's a good question. Um, probably like, culturally Christian. I don't know what are like the cultural [00:01:30] types that you go by. Mai. Um both both both both Really? Yeah. OK. Um, what is your sexuality? Gay? Gay? So when did you realise? Um well, I always knew that I was different, and so it was kind of a gradual realisation, but it was more that I knew I was different more than anything else. And then when I was 13 or 14, I just kind [00:02:00] of realised I was like, Oh, OK. And so I just knew. Yeah. Did you went around high school? Um, so having attractions to boys? Um, not really. I just thought, Well, I should be liking girls. And at the moment, I just think that some of the boys were good looking and stuff, so Yeah, I guess so. But not all the boys. Just something. And so I just realised. Yeah, you [00:02:30] kind of went through a denial stage. Um, I wouldn't say that. It was more more that I didn't I really didn't know what it was like. I. I guess it took me maybe longer than it does for some people to, like, get crushes. Yeah, so I just always knew that I was I wasn't like other people I knew. When was your first crush? Um 12. Probably but I didn't realise it was a crush. I just thought we [00:03:00] were, like, really good friends. I was with a boy. Yeah. Was he gay as well or didn't know yet? I don't know. We never I never saw him again after intermediate, so I have no idea about him. But yeah, we were just friends, and I would always, like, want to spend time with them. Really? So I was pretty innocent. You still are. Um, So, um, when [00:03:30] how did you feel when you realised? Uh, Well, I had a lot on my plate at the time because I was quite ill with, um So I realised. And I was like, Oh, great. This is just what I need on top of my health issues like the last thing I need is to be ostracised by everyone when I'm actually at school rather than bedridden. So I have, um I had really bad chronic fatigue, and I had a lot of joint pain, [00:04:00] and, uh, it was just It was a really hard time at high school for me. I was always ill, but I managed to do pretty well at school. But I just would get so exhausted. But I really because of that, any sort of like romance and stuff got pushed to the sidelines because I was just tired and exhausted all the time and stressed out from that. So I guess I suppose I was in denial because when I realised [00:04:30] it, I thought, Oh, well, the last thing I need is to be bullied if I come out so I'll just stay in the closet. But if somebody asks me, then I'll say yes. Like, I wasn't gonna actively go out and tell people, Um, yeah, I was ill a lot of the time, So any kind of like sexuality stuff just got sort of pushed to the sidelines. And I missed out on, like, sex education at high school because I was always sick. [00:05:00] And I didn't go to PE because it would make me exhausted for, like, the next few days. So I just pushed it to the back of my mind, and I knew it was I knew that was me, but I had other stuff on my plate to deal with. And then when I was in year 11, so when I was 15, Um, that's a funny story like one of my friends. Like we were watching the Romeo and Juliet by Bez Lehman And that song Love for By the Cardigans came on And I was like, Oh, I love the song [00:05:30] And she was like, Are you sure you're not gay? And I was like, No, I mean yes and no, no. And I got all stressed out. She was like, Oh, my God, you are. And then she said she wouldn't tell anybody. But then people found out, and all of a sudden everyone was like, Oh, my God, Oh, my God, he's gay. Oh, my God. And, um, I wasn't surprised that it had spread I. I expected it to happen sooner. Like I just thought everyone would know. Apparently it was some huge deal in the school because [00:06:00] there were no gay guys in my year at least that I knew of. And, um so I was like, something of a celebrity. But it was a big shock to me. So I came and was like, Can I have your autograph? Yeah, well, they were more just like, Oh, are you gay? And I was like, Yeah, and they were like, Oh, and, um, it was weird. It was weird, but II I was pretty well accepted. Really? Like only a few of the cool boys [00:06:30] gave me hell about it. And really, the cool boys didn't end up being cool afterwards. And no, they were not cool. They were just big alcoholics. Really? Well, because they drank more than everyone else. They were cool, but and some of them are pretty in the closet themselves. And so they were. I think they were intrigued by someone who was out. And so they used them as a sort of, like scapegoat so that they wouldn't get suspected of [00:07:00] being gay. So Yeah. So you were 15 when you came out of the closet? Yeah, well got out, but But I always considered myself out. And it seems like I just thought that everybody knew, but I wasn't gonna go out of my way to let people know. Like I just thought it was a quiet out. This if it makes sense, Are you out to your parents? Yes. I've been out to my mom since 2009, I think. [00:07:30] Or maybe maybe 2007 or eight. I can't remember some time around those three years, and she didn't know why I didn't tell her sooner. And then I didn't know either. I should have just been honest, but I didn't think it would be safe, I guess. And I just came out to my dad this year and he was hugely surprised. And I don't [00:08:00] know why he was surprised, because I thought it was the most obvious thing in the world. And we always talk about gay stuff like Frankie goes to Hollywood and that kind of stuff, So I just thought that he knew, but he didn't think it was important to ask me about it. So But he was hugely surprised and kind of angry at first, but and didn't want to talk to me. But then the next time I saw him, he was He hasn't talked about it ever since. And I don't know if he ever will again. She just knows, [00:08:30] and he's not angry at me, so Yeah. So how did you feel about the reactions that you got on? Um not surprised. Overall. Just what I expected. Probably some of the bad reactions I got. I was disappointed and I I was a little bit maybe a little bit scared that I'd get, like, attacked or something, but yeah, I'm surprised, Mainly, that's what [00:09:00] I would say. Surprised that he didn't. It wasn't worse or surprised that it wasn't worse, but at the same time, Like I just expected everything. Like I It didn't surprise me the reaction, but at the same time, Yeah, it could have been a lot worse. Oh, it's fine now, though. Yeah, it's all good now. So, um, you got a lot of support from it, didn't you? Uh, yeah. [00:09:30] Well, closet space is a supportive place. All my friends were accepting, and they just They didn't know why. I hadn't told them sooner. And I said because I thought you already knew. And I thought I didn't need to, like, actively tell you so. Yeah. So, um, so have you been in a relationship before? No. No. Have you had crushes? Yes. Apart from the 12 year old? Um, yeah, [00:10:00] I have, but it's never really progressed because they were like they were straight. And it just Yeah, it was more like, uh, you had a You had a thing or crush flang lust lust crush more than anything, but it's a meaningless crush. But you couldn't go anywhere because of sexuality differences. Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. [00:10:30] So, um, have you ever been attracted to or had a crush on someone that was gay? Um, no, no, no. No one that I knew? No. All right. Um, how do you meet other people? Um, well, now I'm now I'm finished school. Lots of my friends are out of town. So, [00:11:00] um, closet space has been really good. I have to say, I've made lots of friends through there, and it's a good way of catching up with people who you might not otherwise be friends with. But you're still like acquaintances, and it's nice to see them so and also, you just have to get out there and with the community and talk to people, I guess, and just be friendly and you'll make friends. I've made lots of friends since I finished school, and I didn't expect [00:11:30] it. Like when you're at high school, you only want to make friends with people your own age. Like people a year above or below. You are not worth talking to, but I found that to just be stupid after I finished school. So, yeah, I don't know, really. You just pick up friends if you're friendly. Yeah. Yeah. So what is your definition of virginity? Um [00:12:00] uh, the the golden question. If it's anything like more than kissing and like, heavy peeing like I would call anything more than that, then I would say that's losing your virginity. Like I heard someone before talking about how oral wasn't breaking your virginity or something or losing your virginity. I think that is because [00:12:30] it's like something sexual. So, yeah, that's what I think. Do you think there's different forms of virginity? Um, I guess there's, like, biological virginity if you're female or biologically female. And I guess it's just I don't know that it's the intangible sense of virginity, which is, like, you've actually done something more than kissing and stuff. So, [00:13:00] yeah, I guess I think there are different types of virginity, but the intangible one is the one that I consider more important. Yeah, because it applies to everybody. Yeah. So, um, are you a virgin yourself? Yeah. Yeah. Have you ever experienced abuse or abusive behaviour because of your sexuality? Um, really, Just bullying from people at school like an intermediate. [00:13:30] The cool girls and the cool boys will get there older siblings at the school, like who were informed to or whatever to like, come and harass me at break time and try and beat me up and stuff. And then they would try and get their older siblings who were at high school to wag school and come and like, scream at me from over the fence, like onto the field or wherever I was, so that that was really distressing. [00:14:00] Like I think that caused a lot of harm, and I had to see counsellors because of it. But I don't know if they helped. Like, I just needed more friends, and I didn't have those really close friendships then, which later on intermediate or that year, I did make good friendships that have lasted. And then at high school, I really, I guess, on the big scheme of things. I didn't get bullied that much, but there were a few times that really bothered me. Like [00:14:30] after I was out to everybody, one boy who was like, sporty and cool, who I didn't really associate with, and I never talked to before, just came into my class and was like, Oh, you're a bum boy or something stupid like that. And I was mortified that I thought other people would hear and be like, Oh, God! And then the same year, these other cool boys, they were all like the cool popular [00:15:00] boys and they were all really insecure about themselves. One of them, like, touched my chest and he was like, Oh, you like that? And like, freaked out. But I think he liked it. And it was like a way to take out his sexual frustration. Um, it was quite disturbing, really. It just creeped me out that someone would do invade someone's personal space like that. Yeah, that's I would call that bullying. Definitely. [00:15:30] Oh, thank you for the interview. You're welcome.

IRN: 709
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/marriage_equality_parliament_13_march_2013.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004234
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089528
TITLE: Parliament: second reading of the Marriage (Definition of Marriage) Amendment Bill
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Chester Borrows; Chris Auchinvole; Eric Roy; Jan Logie; Kanwaljit Singh Bakshi; Kevin Hague; Lianne Dalziel; Louisa Wall; Ross Robertson; Ruth Dyson; Tau Henare; Tim Macindoe; Trevor Mallard; Winston Peters
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Chester Borrows; Chris Auchinvole; Civil Union Act (2004); Eric Roy; Graham Capill; Green Party; Human Rights Act (1993); Jan Logie; Kanwaljit Singh Bakshi; Kevin Hague; Lianne Dalziel; Louisa Wall; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); National Party; New Zealand First; New Zealand Labour Party; Parliament TV; Parliament buildings; Ross Robertson; Ruth Dyson; Tau Henare; Tim Macindoe; Trevor Mallard; Wellington; Winston Peters; church; civil rights; civil unions; community; discrimination; equality; family; government; homosexual law reform; human rights; identity; marriage; marriage equality; religion; social justice; youth
DATE: 13 March 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the second reading of the Marriage (Definition of Marriage) Amendment Bill. It was introduced into Parliament by Labour MP Louisa Wall on 29 August 2012 and read for a second time on 13 March 2013. The Bill passed its second reading - 77 ayes / 44 noes.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Honourable members. I now call on members Order of the Day Number three Marriage Definition of Marriage Amendment bill. Second reading I call the Honourable Member Lewis. Mr. Speaker, I move that the Marriage Definition of Marriage Amendment Bill Be now read a second time, Mr Speaker, In this second reading debate, I want to focus on [00:00:30] value, the value, the regard, the importance or preciousness that every person should feel as a New Zealand citizen. During the debate on this bill, a number of views have been expressed about a person's value. I've been moved by the depth of feeling of those affected by the bill. Those who will be able to choose whether they access the social institution they are currently prohibited from accessing for no reason other than their sex, sexual orientation [00:01:00] or gender identity. The feeling of being excluded of being a second class citizen of being outside the normal parameters of society proliferate amongst our community. But we are normal and we are entitled to the same rights as every other citizen. The issue of coming out of being true to who you are is difficult enough for any person. The discussion around this bill has emphasised how real the discrimination is. [00:01:30] The agony and hardship that so many who have bravely made submissions have had to face is unreasonable. But what's totally unacceptable is the state perpetuating that agony and hardship by not issuing marriage licences to loving, consenting and eligible non heterosexual couples. This bill is about marriage equality. It's not about gay marriage, same sex marriage or straight marriage. It's about marriage between two people. [00:02:00] There's no distinction to be made. That is equality. Whether the form of that marriage is religious, secular or cultural is a matter for the couple to determine. Denying marriage to a person is to devalue that person's right to participate fully in all that life offers. It's essentially not recognising someone as a person. No state has the right to do that. To deny trans people intersex, lesbian and [00:02:30] gay people. The right to marry is to deny them recognition as a person. Opponents to this bill are essentially asserting that non heterosexuals are not equal people and therefore are not entitled to the same rights as other people, as Archbishop Desmond Tutu said when being sworn in as the Anglican archbishop of Cape Town in 1986. A person is a person because he recognises others as persons. [00:03:00] Almost 20 years later, in a sermon in London in 2004, Archbishop Tutu expressed his wish to reverse injustice by ending the persecution of people because of their sexual orientation, which he described as every bit as unjust as that crime against humanity. Apartheid, he stated. And I quote. For me, the struggle is a seamless robe. Opposing apartheid was a matter of justice. Opposing discrimination [00:03:30] against women is a matter of justice. Opposing discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is a matter of justice. It is also a matter of love. Every human being is precious. We are all all of us, part of God's family. We all must be allowed to love each other with honour. Yet all over the world, lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people are persecuted. We treat them as pariahs and push them outside [00:04:00] our communities. We make them doubt that they, too, are Children of God. This must be nearly the ultimate blasphemy to blame them for what they are. Archbishop Tutu, logic and reasoning is compelling. It's the same logic and reason that should guide us all in this house when we vote on this issue. To most people, marriage is an institution characterised by positivity. It's about love, commitment and family. [00:04:30] No sector of society has the right to claim ownership of marriage and determine that their perception and practise of marriage is the only acceptable way Marriage belongs to society as a whole, and that requires the involvement of the whole of society. The role of the state in marriage is to issue a licence to two people who love each other and want to commit to one another. Formally. That's what this bill does. To be valued for who we are is [00:05:00] the bare minimum we should expect from others. It's the bare minimum we should expect from the state. For me, it's what I would expect from a church. But that will be a longer journey and one that each denomination and church community will determine in their own time. The state's position is that all human beings are equal citizens, and the law protects various aspects of a person's identity, including their sex, sexual orientation, age, colour and race. [00:05:30] These are fundamental aspects of of of our identity with which we are born. The Human Rights Act and the Bill of Rights Act extends the protections beyond these innate aspects to matters of status and belief. I've always been clear that in pursuing marriage equality, I will defend the rights of those in churches to practise their religion on terms that they consider reflect their beliefs. Freedom of religion is an individual right, and [00:06:00] I support the select committee's recommendation to strengthen section 29 of the act to make it clear that there is no compulsion for a minister to perform a marriage that he or she does not feel comfortable about. Section 29 protects all celebrants. Attempts by opponents in the last week to limit the protection only to those listed in the amendment is totally misleading. The Select Committee amendment is clear. The specific amendment that refers to [00:06:30] organisational celebrants begins with the words without limiting the generality of subsection one. The general protection in Section 29 remains in place and applies to all celebrants. To read it any other way is disingenuous. Exercising freedom of religion means religious groups view marriage as exclusive. That's the reality of freedom of religion, and it's my intention to recognise that freedom and therefore allow that discrimination [00:07:00] to continue for as long as religious leaders and specific denominations choose. But in return, I would ask that churches consider the rights of the LGBTI community with love, compassion and reason. My bill is one step and will allow members of the LGBTI community to participate in the civil and state institution of marriage. Some church leaders have embraced that step, and I'm hopeful that time will see a change [00:07:30] in the attitude and practises of other church members. I do have hope that churches will move towards an inclusive approach to marriage. Last October, the General Assembly of the New Zealand Presbyterian Church passed a motion opposing this bill, but an attempt to pass a motion that their ministers could only conduct a marriage between a man and a woman was lost. That's a positive step and will allow ministers like Reverend Doctor Margaret [00:08:00] Maman from Saint Andrews on the terrace, who submitted both personally and professionally to fulfil her desire to be able to offer same sex couples the same option as different sex couples that is to marry or have a civil union. I want to recognise and thank the members of the Government Administration Select Committee who have read and listened to the many submissions received. Their report is reasoned and compassionate in recognising the [00:08:30] decisions taken by those in favour and those against In focusing on value. I am drawn to the lyrics of American musician Ben Haggerty, better known as Macklemore in his song Same Love and I can't change even if I tried even if I wanted to, I can't change. And in voting on this bill, I hope the house will give a message to all young people. You don't have to change. [00:09:00] You can be who you are. And we, as a society will value who you are. Order! Order! Order! Order! Order! Order! Can I just remind members in the gallery that you're in parliament and the Parliament is here for the members of parliament not for members in the gallery, there will be no, uh, there will be no comments at all. [00:09:30] Um, I call the Honourable member Tim McIndoe. Mr. Speaker, I rise, having been a replacement member of the Government Administration Committee during the final stages of the committee's work. Although I regret that I did not hear the many submitters prior to the committee's deliberations. Nevertheless, I have read and considered as many submissions as I could, and I have had numerous meetings with constituents and interested parties, especially in my own electorate. In Hamilton, many [00:10:00] urged me to maintain my vote at first reading against the bill, quite a few urged me to change it. In recent days, both sides of the debate have flooded my inbox with emails, a common theme of many emails from the bill's supporters. Given that my Christian faith was and remains, the main reason for my position was that ours is a secular society and my faith should be left out of the debate. I understand that view, but in matters of conscience, one must fall back [00:10:30] on firm foundations to ignore what I perceive to be God's will in this debate would therefore be unthinkable, even though I acknowledge that not all Christians think as one in this matter. And I agree with Glenn Carpenter and the New Zealand Christian Network that Christians must approach this matter graciously and with respect. I hope those who have contacted me, whatever their views, believe that I have achieved that even so, even though I have to say I haven't always received the same in return. [00:11:00] New Zealand may indeed be a secular society, but marriage has historically been a religious institution for Christians and most of the many other religions now represented with followers in New Zealand. For that reason, this matter is causing huge distress to many, and it is quite wrong to say that changing the definition of the word won't affect anyone else. Christians, for example, believe that marriage was instituted of God himself, signifying the mystical [00:11:30] union between Christ and his church. It may be some may be convenient for some to argue, therefore, that the change of a definition has no greater impact on others. But it ignores and offends tens of thousands of New Zealanders who think otherwise. Last year, I indicated that a principle reason for my opposition was my concern that parliament is moving ahead of the churches on this issue. I remain very concerned about that, as I believe some of the division that this bill has caused [00:12:00] within society in recent months could have been avoided if the churches could reach an accommodation probably based on the French model whereby all couples undergo a civil wedding, after which those who wish to and who meet the criteria of the appropriate church may then also have a religious wedding ceremony. I think many more in our country could live with this while this wouldn't satisfy all who opposed the bill, and the idea wasn't considered, [00:12:30] apparently because it was beyond the scope of the bill. My personal view is that such a division between the functions of church and state might have achieved much wider public acceptance. And some of the hurt that many thousands of the bill's opponents are feeling might have been avoided or at least lessened. I am personally disappointed that we are not able to consider and debate that option without it. I think this bill is putting the cart before the horse and I remain unable to support it. [00:13:00] While some proponents of the bill argue that religion should have nothing to do with our approach to this issue, that, in my view is akin to arguing that parents should have no say over their Children's important and sometimes sensitive decisions during their formative years, or that unions and employers should have no say in our labour laws. I acknowledge the major challenges faced by members of the Select Committee and the respectful nature of the discussions for which I was present. I also acknowledge the architect of this [00:13:30] bill, Louisa Wall. A few months ago, I accepted an invitation from staff and pupils of Wellington High School to debate this topic with Lesa at one of the largest political meetings I've ever seen. Several of my colleagues thought I was mad and would probably be lynched. After my initial hesitation, However, I decided to do it because I felt it was important for young people to have both sides of the argument to consider. And while I was in a minority of one when I started and [00:14:00] probably still when I finished, I was very impressed by the pupils courtesy and the interest they showed in the issue. I enjoyed the experience, and I respected the approach that Louisa Wall took that afternoon. Thank you, Louisa, that aside, given the huge public interest in this topic and the significant ramifications of the change that is proposed, I am very disappointed that the committee was unable to hear many of those who took the trouble to prepare personal submissions and who asked to be given the opportunity [00:14:30] to appear before the committee. I know that many from my own electorate who have spoken to me and others from around the country who have written that there are hundreds of New Zealanders who feel aggrieved at being shut out of the process on a discussion of a matter of such importance to them and to their faith communities, their cultural and ethnic groups, and so on. This isn't just for Christians, far from it. But as I've said, my personal reservation remains PRI primarily grounded in my Christian faith and my difficulty in believing [00:15:00] that God wants this change to be made. This is not, in my view, evidence of a religion that is out of touch or of Christians being unable to love others equally and without passing judgement. But it is about honouring him and his word. It is not to say that I haven't been moved and challenged by many Christians, including four ministers in my own city who have debated the issue with me and argued that just as Christ always sided with the persecuted and the marginalised [00:15:30] in his own times, we should read into that that he would today side with gay couples who are currently denied the opportunity to marry. That is why I offered to work with in good faith with those who felt the civil Union Act needed to be strengthened, and I repeat that offer. Some have said that this bill grants a basic human right. I don't believe that marriage is a universal human right, because there will always, always be those who do not meet legal criteria to marry for various valid reasons. [00:16:00] I have some sympathy for those who fear that if this bill is passed, pressure could arise at some future date for other changes to be made to the marriage act to accommodate changes that today would seem unthinkable. It is less than a decade since almost every member of this house, many of whom are still here, argued that a change to the marriage act of this nature was out of the question. That is why many New Zealanders regard this bill as a breach of faith by [00:16:30] those they sent here to represent them. Most societies have believed, and most religions have taught for thousands of years, that marriage is a sacred institution between one man and one woman who are over a certain age and not committed to any other relationship. It is sacred and said to represent, as I mentioned, the union between Christ and his church. Maintaining this belief in 2013 has not suddenly become a bigoted [00:17:00] or homophobic view just because this bill happened to be drawn from the private members bill ballot last year. Yes, God loves us all equally, whether gay or straight. But he does not, in my view, approve all social change. While most who have written to me and presumably to other MP S from both sides of this debate and as I mentioned earlier, literally tens of thousands have done so. Most [00:17:30] have been sincere in their views and respectful in the way they have expressed them. A few have been aggressive, insulting, and though the irony appears to have escaped them far more bigoted than anything, I have heard arguing or anyone I've heard arguing for the status quo. It is clear that some of the most extreme writers on both sides of the debate refuse to consider that the alternative view to their own could have any merit whatsoever. I do not agree with them. I gave an undertaking [00:18:00] to consider as many submissions as fairly and as objectively as I could and I have done that. I have been moved by the experiences and deeply held convictions of many who have made submissions to the select committee or who have contacted me on both sides of the debate. In particular, I acknowledge the distress of gay friends and constituents and others who have insisted very persuasively that being gay is not a choice and that they continue to feel that society treats them [00:18:30] as inferior because of their orientation. I accept the former conclusion and I very much regret that the latter is still true for many. I hope we'll be able to move away from that. But to those who have dismissed my religious beliefs as worthless and some have or who have insisted that I could easily change those beliefs and who have insisted that my support for the long held definition of marriage means that I must be a bigot who is antagonistic to those who are campaigning [00:19:00] for the changes and that I must also be homophobic, I say that those are not my views. And I am not that person. As I've said, I would have welcomed debate on the merits of several compromises. I hope we may still be able to consider some If, as expected, this bill progresses tonight to its committee stages, I pray that God's will be done. I call the Honourable Ruth Dyson. Um, Mr [00:19:30] Speaker, can I thank you very much for that excellent choice and the fierce competition that there is? I'm taking a call in this bill. Um, I was very privileged to chair the government administration select committee that considered this bill, and therefore, I'm particularly pleased to be able to take a call. Normally, at this stage of the debate, I'd take a ten-minute call. But out of respect to the number of people to whom we can't refer, uh, I'd like the vote taken before 10 o'clock tonight. So I'm gonna take shorter time, um, than I would like to [00:20:00] and certainly say fewer things than I'd like to as well, because this is a really important issue for many people. I want to acknowledge all the committee members, uh, who sit on the bill. Uh, those who are for the bill. Those who were against, um I think that everyone tried really hard on what is for most people, an emotive issue to be respectful and tolerant of people who disagreed with their view. And I want to thank the committee members for doing that. We were nearly 100% successful, uh, in that [00:20:30] attempt, uh, likewise for the submitters. Likewise for the submitters, Uh, people who were very nervous, very anxious and very passionate. Um, but again, almost without exception, uh, presented their views in an unoffensive and respectful manner. Mr. Speaker, I want to pay particular tribute to all the but particularly the young gay and lesbian submitters for whom it must have been a very [00:21:00] big and courageous step to talk about their own lives in front of people who they didn't know. Uh, people as politicians who make an art form out of intimidating people. We tried not to be intimidating, but nevertheless, I'm sure it was a very big step, particularly for those young people. People who talked about how they realised their sexual orientation made them different from their family members from other people at school or people in their workplace. many of whom [00:21:30] then tried to deny their sexual orientation as a result, who lived their life as a lie. People who were subjected to being bullied, who felt isolated or rejected by their family, who never felt part of the community or society that we all value so much. Um, Mr Speaker, for those people, this is not going to change the world. This is not going to overnight change New Zealand into a completely tolerant [00:22:00] and inclusive society. But it will be a lawful recognition of the value of their loving relationships. And for that reason alone, I'd support the bill. It is a step forward in recognising the value of love in our law, regardless of the sexual orientation of the people who love. I want to just briefly talk about, uh, a frustration. I have, Mr Speaker. They say a frustration shared is a frustration [00:22:30] that more people are frustrated about. So let me do that. Let me do that. Tonight. Uh, the changes that we've made to Section 29 that my colleague Louisa Wall has referred to are specifically designed to ensure that religious freedoms are not trampled on by the marriage act, including this amendment that I hope we progress tonight we accept that religious freedom should continue in New Zealand. We received advice. We debated [00:23:00] about it. We thought about it. We took the best advice possible. And I would be prepared to be a witness for a reformist minister in the court to say that he has the right to deny a same sex couple, uh, to solemnise their wedding. Should any same sex couple want to ask a reformist minister to solemnise their wedding? Uh, Mr Speaker, we also as part of the select committee process, repealed [00:23:30] section 56 and I'd recommend people read that, uh, we thought the language of the law was outdated. We don't, uh, propose, though, that this be an opportunity for people to denigrate other people's relationships. We just thought that this was an old fashioned bit of legislation. Uh, Mr Speaker, the other bit of misinformation that I deeply resent and regret being put about by some opponents, and I say some because I know that many opponents have debated this issue on facts, and [00:24:00] that is that we have We have taken out any reference to husband and wife or gender specific terms in the law. Mr. Mr Speaker, our specific direction to the officials was to not do that. I. I frankly think it won't impact on many people. Uh, I won't stop calling my husband my husband, actually, regardless of what the law says. But we specifically said we wanted the law to recognise what people practised and wanted to do [00:24:30] in our country. And the only references we have changed is when they were totally incomprehensible if we left the language as it was. So people who say we have gender neutered the language are misinforming people, and they should be told to read the report from the committee and read the amendment. Um, Mr Speaker, I am a very, very happily married heterosexual woman. I fail to see how enabling [00:25:00] any other person in our country the opportunity to share in the joy and responsibility of marriage. I fail to see how that could harm anyone, but I am very able to see how much that could benefit the strength of our families and our communities. I am delighted with this legislation. I'm very proud of the way the Select committee worked on it. I know there were many submitters who didn't have the opportunity [00:25:30] to be heard. We read their submissions. We value their input. Those who were here heard had a powerful impact on us. Mr. Speaker, I think it has been a very good process and one that I'm very pleased to support. Um, I call the Honourable Member Chris Oval. Thank you, Mr Speaker. In the first reading of this bill, I voted that it be sent to select committee to ensure a call for submissions and a platform for discussion. [00:26:00] And I am very glad that I did that. Serving on the committee as deputy chairman was instructive, illuminating and educative. And it was a pleasure working with the honourable Ruth Dyson as chair. I wish now to speak to the considerations of the committee. The one aspect that was universal common to all submitters was that marriage is special, precious and desirable. Everyone [00:26:30] said that no matter which part of the argument they were interested in, the issue is over. Who can or can't participate in it? Submitters were very definite in expressing their particular views. I found there were three main groupings. I'd like to talk about them now. One grouping has an eschatological view of the bill. In other words, to pass the bill will be the beginning of the end of society. As we note, [00:27:00] this was a very firmly held view. It's perceived as a slippery slope leading to our ultimate demise as a nation and as a civilization. I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of submitters who hold to this view. It was sincerity, though Mr Speaker, that seemed to be entirely based on apprehension and fear and circular reasoning rather than on a persuasive argument. While if the bill passes, [00:27:30] I cannot imagine that a particularly large percentage of the population will suddenly take the opportunity to engage in same gender marriages. I also cannot imagine that any number would make one iota of difference to the 41 years of marriage that my wife and I have enjoyed or to anybody else's heterosexual marriage. I can't see it. I've thought deeply about this and cannot believe the social impact of the bill would herald the demise and collapse of the wider societal values in New Zealand. I respect [00:28:00] the right of those who wish to hold to that view, Mr Speaker, but I cannot give it currency in coming to a defined position on this bill. Another grouping held a perception that this is counter to religious views and practises and represents a state interference in religious practise, beliefs and dogma. The committee listened very carefully and sincerely to the concerns expressed as someone who had five years as a lay minister for the Presbyterian Church of New Zealand and [00:28:30] was a member of the Council of Assembly for the Presbyterian Church. I had a particular interest in this aspect of the discussion. It became clear through listening that the overriding concern is that the clergy and those authorised by religious bodies to conduct marriages would be obliged, indeed forced to conduct ceremonies for same gender couples should the bill be passed. Mr. Speaker, we've already heard from Honourable Ruth Dyson about Section 29 of the Marriage Act, which has always stipulated that it authorises [00:29:00] but does not oblige any marriage celebrant to solemnise, a marriage to which the licence relates. The Select committee has recommended a new clause that makes it abundantly clear. Ministers of religion or celebrants from approved organisations are not obliged to solemnise a marriage if to do so would contravene the religious beliefs of the religious body or approved organisations. I thoroughly enjoy theological discussion and have a huge appetite for it. I've been most grateful for the opportunity to sit with [00:29:30] clergy from many different denominations and engage with them on this issue by providing and ensuring that this bill deals only with secular issues. I'll say it again. It deals only with secular issues. It nevertheless leaves a dilemma for established religious groups who wish to differentiate their church or holy matrimony from the new definition. If the bill passes, it is not for the state to have a view on [00:30:00] this. It's for the churches to resolve in their own way and time. And I look forward to engaging in that discussion in a personal capacity in my own time. The third consideration we've heard it spoken by my, uh, colleague and friend Tim. Uh, this evening is that marriage is an institution time honoured, never changing and having the essential components of one man one woman common to all countries and civilizations throughout the millennia until death Do them part, [00:30:30] Mr Speaker, it ain't necessarily so. Bye, I. I I'm privileged to have my wife in the gallery tonight. My wife and I married on the 11th of March 41 years ago last Monday and lived happily ever after. But the question that exercised the upper echelons of ecclesiastic minds in those days was whether or not the bride should take a vow of obedience [00:31:00] to her husband. You're marrying a redheaded West Coast girl from West Coast aristocratic family. Some hope during that same time, to have had Children born out of wedlock was a hamper to church marriage, as was a divorce or indeed wanting to marry someone of a different religion. Bands of marriage were called from pulpits, advising that people were intending marriage and others were invited to give reasons why that marriage should not proceed or to forever hold their peace. Marriage, [00:31:30] Mr Speaker, is not an unchanging institution, and while most of its institutional aspects have been laudable for men, they have often been less than favourable for women. Some stats to show this change to the institution are quite illuminating, Mr Speaker, 23% of marriages are conducted in a registry office. 32% of marriages are conducted in a church, 45% are conducted by independent marriage celebrants. Mr [00:32:00] Speaker, the figures shout out change, which we cannot close our ears to. I found it personally significant that from the wait for the figures, 9347 independent marriage celebrants are nearly 10,000 independent marriage celebrants and 535 civil union celebrants. That's 1500. Altogether. The committee received two two submissions. [00:32:30] Mr Speaker, the last two aspects I wish to touch on are the matter of conscience and the question of family coming first in terms of conscience, I've given much, much thought to this. I'm acquainted with guilt. Being a Presbyterian one goes through life thinking that one hasn't worked hard enough, hasn't done enough and hasn't reached the requirement that life's opportunities offer. And you always get other members who will tell you that, as one did this evening to Sage my conscience on this issue, I [00:33:00] delve back in my life to the age of understanding, which I think those of Catholic persuasion tells me that Jesuits determined it at seven years old. When I was a boy, I looked at cat cataclysmic values. When I learn in the catechisms by I wrote in Glasgow. Who made you God made me. Why did God make you? God made me to know him and love him. The third question What image did God make you in the answer God made me in his own image, [00:33:30] Mr Speaker, Every seven year old boy and girl said the same and believed it was true. They didn't have to add as long as I conformed to being heterosexual and not to loving anyone of the same gender as myself. My conscience is very clear on this issue. Every person has the same spiritual claim as one another to being made in the image of God. And it will be a braver person than I am to deny that I've addressed the question [00:34:00] of eschatology in my mind the question of ensuring religious freedom and the assumption of benign institutionalisation. My conscience is not clouded or indeed involved in this issue, Mr Speaker, As an older person, we do have a baggage to carry of remembering when homosexuality was illegal, in fact, it was criminal and it was, we were told, immoral. [00:34:30] There were two definite groups of people who came and made submissions before us, and it was what I would call a generational divide. And so, in dealing with the legacy of discriminatory, discriminatory prejudice, and I wouldn't want that to be a deciding feature, I prayerfully asked to be able to internalise and resolve this complicated situation in my head, in my heart and in my soul. What I learned what I learned from listening [00:35:00] to the submissions, Mr Speaker colleagues, is that in fact, each homosexual, lesbian, bisexual or transgender person appearing before us was not just to be seen as an individual, not just identified by gender preference but in fact, as a mother's son or a daughter and a father's daughter or son, their siblings to their brothers and sisters, grandchildren to their grandparents, nephews and nieces to their uncles and aunts and uncles and aunts to their nephews and nieces, cousins to their cousins. Mr Speaker, they're [00:35:30] all family, along with their heterosexual friends and relations, and all are an integral part of the New Zealand family. All part in my mind, in my heart and in my conscience, all part of God's family. I now realise that this bill seeks to put first something that critics have accused of it of undermining. And that is the family. We as parliamentarians, should not simply look past the interests of the applicants for this bill. We should not simply look at their interests. [00:36:00] We should. And we must look after their interests. We should pass this bill. Right? You see, I call the Honourable Trevor Mallard. Thank you. Thank you, Mr Speaker. And I, um, [00:36:30] for the reasons outlined by my, uh, friend and colleague Ruth Dyson will speak for a relatively short time as well. Uh, I want to thank her for her able chairing of the select committee, uh, to, uh, thank the previous speaker for the work he also did on that select committee. And to contrast, um, the attitude of many of most of the submitters at that select committee with my experience [00:37:00] chairing a select committee on a similar subject 27 years ago. There is There is when I was 17, Says, uh uh, Mr Mr Speaker earlier as opposed to the mid point of my career. Uh, Mr Mr Mr Speaker, there is no doubt that the winds of change have blown. They have moved us a very, very long [00:37:30] way And that is reflected not only in society's attitude over the period of time, but the attitude of members of Parliament and the public as they have taken part in this debate. Uh, and Mr Speaker, it is enormously different. I There are a few of my colleagues who were there at the time, but the attitude from one side of Graham Lee, um, John [00:38:00] Banks and Norman Jones was appalling. It was absolutely shocking and revolting. Uh, Mr Speaker, some of the people who spoke for the legislation weren't that flash either. Uh, Trevor de Clean, I think of, uh, who's Who's the who, whose main FRS was. Just don't make it compulsory, I think was the line that Trevor de Clean, uh, took. But Mr Speaker, I was proud, um, at that time at the third reading, [00:38:30] to be the teller for the eyes and to come out and to put five fingers in the air because that was the margin that we got time to change, Mr Speaker I. I now am going to surprise some people by saying that I have a lot in common with the position that Tim McIndoe got to Mr Speaker. I think. Actually, the state has almost no role in marriage. My view is actually, [00:39:00] if everyone had a civil union or went to the state and got a bit of paper and said you are married and then went off to their church or if they wanted to dance around a fire on the beach and have whatever appropriate celebration of that new relationship that they wanted to, then that would be the best approach. But, Mr Speaker, I have canvassed colleagues, and what became [00:39:30] clear to me is that the winds of change have not quite blown that far yet. And colleagues in the house, uh, do feel that the state has a role in marriage. And if that is to be the case, then in my view, it has to be equal for all. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Yeah, Uh, the right honourable Winston Peters. Mr. Speaker, [00:40:00] I move that the motion be amended by replacing all the words following that with the following words of referendum be held at the time of the next general election to decide whether the Marriage Act 1955 should be amended to recognise marriage between two people regardless of their sex, sexual orientation or gender identity. End of quote. Uh, [00:40:30] yeah, Well, um, the member should if he's gonna speak, continue to speak. And I would ask that I can have a written copy of the amendment, please. So just continue. Mr. Speaker, Uh, this is clearly about many issues and many beliefs, and you've heard them tonight and for many years and over the last few months in particular. But it also is about the right of the people of this country to be heard the right of New Zealanders to all have their say [00:41:00] and to evince their equality with anyone who sits in this parliament. New Zealand has a proud tradition of democracy. It's in our cultural DNA. We're one of only nine countries that can claim an unbroken line of democracy. That's elections on a regular term for the last 1. 5 centuries. We are a seriously unique country in that context. And [00:41:30] the democratic traditions of New Zealand is part of who we are as a nation. And tonight, for reasons that members may best understand themselves, that tradition is again under threat. We stand on the verge of passing legislation which would radically change the institution of marriage. No one in tonight's debate would surely watching television or being here tonight dispute that [00:42:00] we stand on the verge of passing legislation which would radically change institution of marriage. And my party is not here to argue the merits of that. But we are going to go about it without any democratic mandate at all. Who here in the last campaign said we were going to do this? Who here in the last campaign? Yes. [00:42:30] Oh, we did. Is that true? Well, I don't recall the advertisements. I don't recall the hoardings. I don't recall the powered boasts when it was thought that votes would be forfeit so we can make that frivolous statement. But tonight I'm asking you this. Why do you think that your knowledge of this country is more preferable to the mass majority of adult New Zealanders? Answer that question. [00:43:00] Do you still feel that you have a superior entitlement to the ordinary people of this country who, after all, we are here to serve and not become the directors of We are doing it without any democratic mandate at all. Have no doubt about this. The New Zealand people have been denied the chance to vote on one of the most polarising of issues of our age. This is This is not to argue the merits of [00:43:30] each side. The proponents of Ms Will's bill point to the select committee process as being some sort of indication. Well, if that's true, is that a mandate? If that's true, is it good enough? If that's true, why don't you trust your fellow New Zealanders? What is it about the New Zealand people, who you for war to serve all your parliamentary days that you don't trust and think that you have [00:44:00] a superior knowledge of? If the select committee's submissions reveal anything is that the public opinion of this country is widely split, we all accept that. But where is the majority in our country? Where is the mandate? This may seem tiresome, but just yesterday we were talking about the need to ask the country about asset sales, and we all know that there's a massive majority of New [00:44:30] Zealanders. Despite our politics against the sale of assets. How can somebody be meritorious yesterday and 48 hours not be meritorious? Answer that question. Such a major legislative change must be based on the collective will of New Zealanders. Not 100 and 21 temporarily empowered MP S. Most of these people are gonna be gone tomorrow. We all know that. So why would you not [00:45:00] repose the trust in the voters of this country? Against the people who sit here? It's called democracy. For goodness sake. If New Zealand is going to have a proper debate or someone just said to me, go and get the signatures already Well, why not do what Washington and other great people in history have done? Why not ask the people What is so wrong with that? I mean, what can be what can be wrong if you [00:45:30] have the overwhelming majority of 4 million New Zealanders expressed by their adults in a referendum? Well, where's the sin here and actually reposing the trust in the people of this country? We are calling for a referendum on this issue to give all New Zealanders the same say as these people here tonight. Why not? What could possibly be wrong [00:46:00] or unprincipled or unfair? And then the people of New Zealand decide this issue for themselves and knowing then and knowing then whichever side of the argument we end up on, that the public have decided, and therefore because we believe in democracy, we must live with their choice. What could be so wrong with that in the past so often? And there are people in the [00:46:30] gallery tonight watching TV tonight and in this house who know that there's been an enormous fundamental disconnect between politicians and voters. We've seen and endured this on occasion after occasion after occasion, particularly over the last 30 years. No-one could dispute that tonight and on so many occasions we have seen politicians blatantly lie about their intentions, and there cannot [00:47:00] be anyone who's watching tonight's debate. Who doesn't understand that, you know, tonight we're actually seeing it. In this sense, there's a recurring theme here, and we wonder why a million people didn't vote at the last election who were entitled to 1 million New Zealanders in a country that used to be pride itself, that even though the vote was voluntary, we used to outperform Australia with the vote was compulsory. [00:47:30] That was a recent boast, but a million never turned out the last election, and I can see and I'm sure some of you see why that is. They think that their voice doesn't matter. And echoing out of this house tonight and reverberating the country all around New Zealand is an expression saying you don't matter. You don't count. You're just Joe bloggs out in suburbs somewhere else or in some black box place, when in [00:48:00] fact this should be an empowering, empowering expression from New Zealand. There is nothing New Zealanders hate more than politicians who think they know best. There is nothing more odious, more loathsome than politicians who think they know best. And this debate sadly and I'm not doubting the integrity of any side of [00:48:30] this debate. But it shows in a terrible indifference. In 2013, when all of our expressions are about transparency, openness and taking the people with us an absolute apathy and indifference to democracy. It betrays the feeling of moral intellectual superiority that some people in this chamber hold, and my challenge to you up there right now and around this country is Do you think these people are better able to judge this issue than you? [00:49:00] Oh, no, you don't. Oh, no, you don't because there's no one who believes in democracy that doesn't want to have the decision shared with their family, their friends, their community and indeed their nation with them themselves. I think the people of of this country tonight are being seriously let down because there's an enormous sense of haste here and argument here. But there's also the feeling that we again will take the people [00:49:30] for granted. My party proposed a referendum. My party says that we believe the people of this country are better able to decide this issue than anybody else. And if you don't trust the people, pray tell me who you gonna trust now, Mr Kevin Hague. Why, thank you, Mr Speaker. Oh, I just Yes, I, I heard I. I should say the question is that the amendment be agreed to acknowledging [00:50:00] the amendment. Now, Kevin Hay, Mr. Speaker, I want to begin by echoing, uh, the honourable Ruth Dyson and, um uh, and the honourable, uh, Trevor Mallard in, uh, expressing my appreciation of the officials who worked so hard servicing the needs of the Select committee. Also to all of those members who sat on the Select committee with me, both those who favour the Bill and [00:50:30] those who oppose it. I, I believe, all did their job sincerely and well, and to particularly praise the job that was done by the honourable Ruth Dyson and the chair, and indeed by Chris, who on occasion was also in the chair in creating a culture in the select committee hearings of, uh, respect and integrity. Some of the submissions that we heard, uh, from people speaking in favour of the bill were hard to listen to, sir. They [00:51:00] shared with the committee their own stories of the damage that prejudice and discrimination had brought them. Friends lost to suicide, their own self harm, depression and isolation. And they told us also about their love. Sir, it was wonderful to have lesbian, gay, transgendered and bisexual people come to the committee and speak about the people they love, their hopes for the future and [00:51:30] the powerful difference this bill will make in their lives. Some people came with their partner. On one occasion, a young woman gave her submission with her partner, her parents, her sisters and one of her sister's fiance. Heterosexual people and couples came and told us about how they felt about marriage, not being available to their gay friends. Parents came, Children came to. They spoke about love and about belonging. [00:52:00] How the institutions of a society like marriage form a kind of rope that binds society together across the generations and through history. Not all of us want to get married. But what we heard on the committee was a strong yearning for respect for belonging and to add our strands to that rope. It was striking that the submissions for the bill came from a huge range [00:52:30] of organisations and individuals offering an A an array of different perspectives. Personal, religious, health, legal, human rights were just some of those by way of contrast to submissions opposed to the bill, while also sincere and strongly held, represented typically quite a narrow range of views and one particular perspective. Almost all of the submissions opposed to the bill came [00:53:00] from a religious perspective. Most of them reflected the submission guide that had been circulated by a particular lobby group, often verbatim, including the errors. I want to make two broad generalisations about the debate overall. Firstly from the word go Louisa Wall and those of us who have been working for this bill have been absolutely clear that we have no wish to restrict the religious [00:53:30] freedom of others. We know that some churches still had some doubt about that. But the select committee, rather than getting bogged down and whether their doubts had any validity, has moved to put the matter beyond doubt. The existing relationship between church and state has been preserved, with no church required to do or to say anything differently. But while [00:54:00] the church voice that has been heard loudest has been one opposed to the bill, all the while there have been faiths, denominations and congregations within denominations who have wished to be able to conduct same sex marriages and whose freedom of religion has been constrained by the existing law. Passing this bill into law will extend religious freedoms and will not [00:54:30] restrict them in any way. The second general point I want to make is that as I read the submissions, I was more and more struck by the difference in world view. They represented those in favour of the bill, typically see New Zealand as a pluralistic society in which this parliament needs to create a framework that supports and provides for a multiplicity of cultures, beliefs [00:55:00] and value systems. By way of contrast, those opposed to the bill bill believe that this parliament should legislate for a strict code of behaviour that conforms to a single or very, very tightly restricted set of beliefs and values based on their own religious belief. They believe all must comply with this behaviour code, regardless of whether or not they share the beliefs on which it is [00:55:30] based. We heard a lot about traditions here. Those opposed said that the institution of marriage shouldn't be changed because of tradition. Those who support the bill showed that progress can only occur by changing historical practises. And this has been the case, as Chris has demonstrated, with marriage many times over. This was graphically illustrated by so many of the arguments against this bill being precisely those [00:56:00] that were used in the United States to try to justify continuing bans on interracial marriage tradition, slippery slope, God's will, all the same arguments the landmark Supreme Court case to finally end such bans in the United States was loving versus the state of Virginia kind of ironic in 1967 although the last of those laws was only removed in Alabama [00:56:30] in the year 2000. Mildred, a black woman, and Richard, a white man, fought a nine year battle to have their marriage recognised in their home state in 2007, then aged 68 A year before her death, Mildred Loving made a very rare statement about same sex marriage delivered on the 40th anniversary of the historic decision, Surrounded as I am now [00:57:00] by wonderful Children and grandchildren, not a day goes by that I don't think of Richard and our love, our right to marry and how much it meant to me to have that freedom to marry the person precious to me, even if others thought he was the wrong kind of person for me to marry. I believe all Americans, no matter their race, no matter their sexual orientation, should have that same freedom to marry. Government [00:57:30] has no business imposing some people's religious beliefs over others, especially if it denies people's civil rights. I am still not a political person, but I am proud that Richards and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness and the family that so many people. Black or white, young or old, Gay or straight [00:58:00] Seek in life. I support the freedom to marry for all. Mr. Speaker, it's time 150 Point of order The Honourable. Um I've, uh, stood to take the call, uh, on a lot of occasions tonight, and I want to know from you. Um, [00:58:30] how are you, uh, determining who speaks? Um, I took the precaution of actually, uh, sending to whips beforehand. What may be a preferential way of doing this, which was principally the mover of the bill, uh, select committee members or leaders of the house. And then, uh, I would choose as speaker subsequently. After that, I've noted the member's, uh, intention to take a call. [00:59:00] Uh, point of order, Mr Speaker. This is a conscience vote a free vote, Uh, and therefore, uh, I. I think that, uh, that it is wrong for you to, uh, go down that path, I think Order. Order. I've made a ruling. Uh, the member may well disqualify himself if he persists. Car Bakshi. Mr. Speaker. Thank you, Mr Speaker, for this opportunity for me to speak on the second [00:59:30] reading of Marriage Act Amendment bill Before I talk about the bill, I thank all the staff and officials who worked during the Select committee hearings and collection of submissions, significant number of submissions that were received both against and in favour of the bill. I will also like to thank all the submitters for their written and oral submissions. I also take this opportunity to thank the chair of the government, a select committee, Honourable Ruth [01:00:00] Dyson and other members for all the hard work they have put in in this process. Mr. Speaker, I begin by sharing one of the words from the Holy Quran, the living group of Sikhs, which is when translated. This would most likely read. The Lord first created his [01:00:30] own light and out of the light was created all human being. How can then be one human being good and this other cannot be Mr Speaker. My religious belief and faith is a schism. The purpose of me sharing this verse with my parliamentary colleagues and you is to clarify that it is not in my religion, culture or heritage to discriminate anyone on any basis. [01:01:00] I do not believe that anyone of us residing in New Zealand is a second class citizen. I note that some of my opposition colleagues redefining what constitutes marriage may not be much of a big deal. However, from what my community has shared with me is most of us. It is. I based my position not only on any historical [01:01:30] belief, but rather what I saw and heard when I went went with the open mind to the select committee hearings across New Zealand. However, at each of the Select committee hearings, none of the arguments presented by the summits provided any significant rational for redefining the word marriage. Furthermore, the rights that are being sought are already provided for under the civil union in [01:02:00] case there are any changes required in civil union. Law can be tweaked to accommodate these changes, however, to change the definition of marriage from what it has historically been to something that offends the majority of people inappropriate, especially when those argue for the change have little way in way of reasoning to support their argument. The basis of the bill in that marriage is a social institution [01:02:30] is fundamental human right for all people, regardless of sex, sexual orientation or gender identity, and that all should therefore have equal opportunity to it without discrimination or limiting the human rights to one group in the society only which would now allow for equality. In my counterargument, Can I just say that right to marry is not never [01:03:00] can be an absolute human right. The law of this country does not permit close family members to marry each other or Children or people who are already married. In each case, Mr Speaker, there is good reason for such restriction. None of them can be classified as discrimination. And can I also ask a counter question? Does anyone who opposed to the view put forward does not enjoy the [01:03:30] same human rights as people who seek this amendment? Do we have the right to express what we feel about the issue which stands to change our society, Mr Speaker? Neither in the claim that the same sex marriage is basic human right? Correct. If this was the case, the rights would have been enriched in major international human rights agreements [01:04:00] signed by New Zealand in particular in particular the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Those who argue that by proposing this bill they seek to defend the human rights do sound rigorous. But people who advocate for the change have, in my opinion, failed to consider the grave implication that the change they seek will have on our society. Moreover, Mr Speaker, those [01:04:30] who feel the retro about this about redefining marriage should ask if including the polymer relationship should be consented for our society. They should ask the question to themselves. What will be the impact of agreeing to the polymer relationship in our society, Mr Speaker? Apart from the rational argument and the question I have put forward and asked earlier, can I ask [01:05:00] simplistic question to those who argue that the same sex couple will allow to marry? Can I ask the word marriage will add any sugar or flavour to their relationship. During one of the public hearing, I was pleased to see a family who had come to support their daughter's submission. By the way, the submission was in support of the bill. The family bond is one special thing we are fortunate to enjoy [01:05:30] in New Zealand. During the hearing, I asked the family if being a civil civil union or marriage will affect her or her family bond in any manner. They said No. Some have cast my comment as discriminatory again. I refer to my opening statement and assure all my brothers and sisters that I believe in humanity and human rights and as much as they do, all the human beings are equal, [01:06:00] regardless of where they come from. I honestly do not believe that standing my position on marriage, I am discriminating against anyone. Marriage for me is something that has unique sanctity inherent in its divine origin, given to the humanity and the pattern and the plan for the perpetuation of society. This attempt to refine marriage is causing considerable [01:06:30] amount of anxiety in religious organisations and their staff. The prevailing view of churches from Catholic to Pen coast is that the marriage is spirit scared to many sacred to many people in our society. The New Zealand Christian community as a whole rejects the notion that there is no biblical view of marriage. The standard biblical view view of marriage, [01:07:00] first revealed in Genesis and then endorsed, endorsed by Jesus, is the faithful union of one man and woman. Any other form of marriage is never endorsed by Old testaments. The idea of same sex marriage. Same sex marriage is biblically unthinkable. Therefore, the church also consider that the Civil Union Act 2004 already provide for the clear societal recognition and legal protection [01:07:30] of same sex relationship. The select committee listened very closely to the submissions made by the church and thereby recommended that in case the bill is passed, no church minister or pastor can be forced to undertake a same sex wedding. This, I think, is an excellent example of how democratic our nation is. Mr Speaker. As a citizen of this country, I acknowledge, accept [01:08:00] and respect the aspiration of the homosexual people as citizens of to have their partnership recognised by the society and fully protect by the law. However, the social and legal argument presented by those forwarding this argument does not make a compelling case. My concern is to protect the uniqueness of the marriage as a union of a man and a woman. Once again, [01:08:30] Mr Speaker, I fully endorse the principle of equality as human being. However, I assert that while the people are equal, not all relationships are the same. Mr Speaker, rather than listening to the catch cries which are based on individualistic argument and we parliamentarians must consider the large public good and expectations when we vote on this bill. The larger public good and expectation [01:09:00] is that most of New Zealanders do not accept this society believes it has the right to do anything. However, it takes little or no responsibility for the consequences of its action. Australians, our neighbours have recently defeated the equivalent Legislation of Marriage Act Amendment Bill with the resulting vote 42 in favour and 98 against the member's time [01:09:30] has expired. The honourable Leanne del Zeal. Um, I have participated in more than one debate in this Parliament Parliament in my time here the first time that I participated in a debate, uh, on a subject that really has been a platform for where we are now, Uh, with the 1993 amendments to the Human Rights Act, which took effect on the first of February 1994. And, uh, I haven't been here as long [01:10:00] as, uh, the as Trevor Ballard has, um, but I remember this debate very, very well, and the second one was the civil Union legislation, and I do want to speak briefly to both of those because they are relevant to why we're here tonight. Uh, I remember, uh, participating in the human rights debate as if it were yesterday, and in fact, the number of submissions that came into that select committee which I had the honour of serving on the number of submissions that came in, didn't most of them didn't actually deal [01:10:30] at all. With all of the amendments to the human rights legislation, they focused on the supplementary order paper very bravely. Um, progressed by, uh, Catherine O'Regan, who was, uh, an associate minister in the government at the time. Uh, and she made sure that sexual orientation and also, uh, diseases capable of causing in no infection. Oh, I can't remember what it was, but it was the HIV status clause. Um, and, uh, enable people to have a say about whether that should become [01:11:00] part of our human rights architecture. And fortunately, that was passed by this house. And at the same time, that legislation changed our Bill of Rights Act, and that was substantial, um, a substantial advance in this country. And I was very proud to be part of that debate. And actually, I remember standing in this house and I was sitting up the front and standing up the front, uh, speaking in the third reading of the debate. And it was about nine o'clock in the morning because we were speaking under [01:11:30] urgency. And I remember, um, standing here, and I was so tired because we'd been up till midnight the night before. And I just said I just today I just feel so proud to be a member of Parliament, and I really, really felt that way. And, uh, if you remember the early 19 nineties, uh, there wasn't a lot of things that I felt particularly proud of, um, back then. So, um, it really was, um and I major achievement. But what I remember about that night after the debate was over, [01:12:00] I was invited to appear on television to stand up for what I had voted for. And I appeared debating the issue on the other side with a gentleman called Graham Caple from one of the religious, uh, political parties. And I just want everyone in this house to think for one minute where he is today. So, um, and as I said I, I felt very proud of that moment, Um, supporting that legislation [01:12:30] and it was a major major change. I should have been the minister that introduced the civil union legislation. I really am very sad that I was not. Tragically, I decided to take time out for bad behaviour at the time. And as a result, my colleague, um, the honourable David Benson Pope had the honour of taking that legislation through the House. That disadvantage of not being able to steer that legislation through the House was [01:13:00] immediately overtaken by the by the great pleasure that I had in hearing the submissions. And I pay tribute to Ruth Dyson and all members of the committee for having uh taken up that challenge with this particular piece of legislation and doing so in such a respectful way. The feedback that I've had from people on both sides of the debate that they felt honoured and respected on both sides of the debate, um, by the committee. So I do thank them for that. And [01:13:30] thank Ruth Dyson for her great leadership in that regard. Uh, at the time, as I said, um, that there were lots of the arguments that have been heard today were heard then. But I have to say that the noise was much louder then I have to say, say that the noise has dampened down and I don't feel that there is the strength of the objections that existed back then. And I think there's a very simple reason for that. A lot of the dire predictions that were made at that time simply didn't come to [01:14:00] pass as they had in 1993 as they didn't in the year. Um uh, What was it BC or whatever? Um, when um Trevor Mallard was, um, debating the previous one. But the point and and And the point is, is that I went back and I looked at my first reading speech for the Civil Union legislation, and I actually found a speech that I could have given tonight because I said that the marriage act was discriminatory. Back then, every [01:14:30] single thing I said in my speech was actually not in support of civil Union. It was support in an amendment to the marriage act, and I wish that we had been able to go there then, but we couldn't. And I'm really proud of my friend Louisa Wall for bringing it to the house. Um, tonight I quoted Baroness Hale, who had recently made a decision in the UK. She said the guarantee of equal treatment is essential to democracy. And it is. This isn't the [01:15:00] slippery slope. And I actually went online before to find out what is the alternative. What's the opposite of a slippery slope? And I found that it was a leap of faith. And that's what we're doing here tonight. Um, as we have all the way along this journey and it's not a slippery slope, it's about understanding where our Democra democracy must stand and it must stand for human rights. Um I, I said in my third reading speech that I had a lot of luck on my side when I chose [01:15:30] the circumstances of my birth. Um, I. I was, uh, born to the majority status in every single respect. I was white, I was female and I was heterosexual, and I was born into what was called then the one true faith. I was born into the Catholic Church. Um, and I said that what concerned me at the time was that some representatives of that church had essentially asked me to set aside one of the principles that stands for and one of [01:16:00] the values it taught me. And that was the one that affirms committed, faithful, loving relationships between two people who wish to share their lives together. Mr. Speaker, I stand by those values, and that's why I stood by the civil Union legislation. That's why I stand by this marriage amendment tonight. And that's why I believe that the people who want to, um, who have opposed this bill actually speak to those values in exactly the same way. [01:16:30] Um that we did, uh, back then. And I hope that this house can see its way clear to seeing the passage of this legislation and for today and the rest of the passage of this bill to go down in history as a day that we stood proudly for human rights. The honourable to he. Mr Speaker, Thank you, uh, for recognising me, uh, the eighth time. [01:17:00] Um, you know, there's nothing quite like an idea whose time has come, Mr. Speaker, There's nothing quite like an MP, uh, with an idea whose time has come. And I want to say all power to my colleague uh, Louisa Wall. Mr. Speaker, I won't take too much, uh, of the house's time. And I know there's a few people across [01:17:30] the way, and even in my own party, that will be, um, silently clapping. But what I what I despise most of all about the process that we are going through tonight or what I'm going through is the blatant gerrymandering of of of the of a process. And I want to say to my party, uh, that I am appalled by that behaviour. I am appalled [01:18:00] at, uh, some of the behaviour that I've seen tonight in the out right outright. Um, not telling the truth, Mr Speaker, When? When Somebody, uh when something like this comes before the house, Um, a person has to ask themselves How does it impact on them? How does the decision that the house makes, uh, impact on myself, my wife and my family? [01:18:30] And the funny thing is, sir, is that most legislation impacts on you somehow. This, on the other hand, doesn't impact me one little bit. It doesn't affect me. It doesn't hurt me. It doesn't help me. It it has nothing to do with me. It has nothing to do with my sanity. With my lack of sanity with my happiness, with [01:19:00] my lack of happiness, it has everything to do with other people's sanity, everything to do with other people's happiness, everything to do with how they choose to run their lives. Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker. Um, II I I'm I'm remiss, and And I was a bit angry at the beginning, just a wee bit. But this is this, [01:19:30] um this this speech, uh, this speech, Uh, I dedicate this speech not only to, uh, my my very dear colleague, uh, Louisa Wall, but to my cousin, uh who three or four weeks ago, passed away to Catherine. He my first cousin. Um and so I was remiss in in in not saying her name. The other question that that I like to ask myself when legislation [01:20:00] is brought to the house is the sky going to fall in, and, um, got to say that it ain't going to fall in. And tomorrow the sun actually said it might not be a good um, uh uh, thing to say, because there's a drought. But the sun's gonna come up again tomorrow. Um, and rain is on the way, but not because of this. Right. Uh, I, [01:20:30] I do wanna have a a free shot at I. I wanna I want to um uh, make mention of the referendum issue, Uh, that my, uh, former, um leader, Colleague, Uh, party mate. Bench mate. Um, brother and arm. Um, why don't you say this to New Zealand [01:21:00] first? That they are the only party in this in this house that steadfastly, uh uh believes in the issue of referendum. And I take my hat off to New Zealand first for having that position through throughout the years. If it was one thing that they have been consistent on, it is the issue of a referendum. But now I turn my, uh, little wee guns [01:21:30] on those who have conveniently, uh, found the issue, uh, of a referendum, those that have suddenly become revolutionary in the issue of a referendum. And if the resolute in their determination to push the idea of a referendum if that if I was to believe them, then why aren't we having a referendum [01:22:00] on asset sales? Why aren't we having a referendum on all sorts and all manner of things? So to my colleagues who I think and and who I, uh, hold dear to my heart, including Mr Bennett, who has tried who has tried vigorously all day to get me to support a referendum. I say to Mr Bennett, it's a bit late, brother, [01:22:30] to be thinking about a referendum. It's a bit late. And quite frankly, it is wrong to think that you can govern a country through the referendum through the referendum. Uh, issue, Mr Speaker, it won't work. It has never worked. And Mr Speaker and Mr Speaker, I don't support it. Uh, one of the final things I want to say, Mr Speaker, if the institution Oh, well, the So-called institution of marriage [01:23:00] was so sacrosanct, Mr Speaker. Then why are there so many people opting out of marriages? Why are there so many divorces, Mr Speaker? Now, I'm not a I'm not a an expert on marriage. I've only been married for just over 365 days, Mr Speaker. But what I do know, what I do know is that why can't we offer the same opportunities [01:23:30] to everybody rather than only a few people in our nation? Mr. Speaker, Uh, I I've got to say that. And I suppose I should quote, um, Doctor Paul Hutchison. Uh, when he said in the first reading of the speech of the bill, uh, that he can't find any good reason to vote against it. And I, too, am like that, Mr Speaker, [01:24:00] and I think that everybody should be like Doctor Paul Hutchison and think very seriously and have a look at it and say they can't They can't find any good reason to vote against this piece of legislation. Uh, Mr Speaker, I commend, uh, this bill to the house, and, um, I commend my colleague Louisa Wall. [01:24:30] Jan Logie. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I'm proud to stand here today, um, as a green voice in support of, um, my impressive colleague Louisa Wall's bill for marriage equality. Um, the Green Party is voting on block in support of this bill because for us, it's a human rights issue and there's no matter of conscience when it comes [01:25:00] to rights and equality under the law and for us, Even if the majority of New Zealand was opposed to this bill, we would still support it because we understand that human rights exist to protect the minority from the majority. And that is what this bill does. I'd like to acknowledge my colleague Kevin Hague, [01:25:30] Um, who has worked so hard for us on behalf of the greens and this and to everyone else who sat on the select committee. I know that hearing the stories of pain and injury caused by discrimination can be really hard. So I honour you for that work. Um and I'd like to then acknowledge everyone and many of you I know are here tonight who shared your personal stories with the committee in this house and this process [01:26:00] to help us make the right decision tonight. I really hope that your stories guide our votes. And I hope that for the really beautiful young queer people, some of whom I also know are here tonight that I met, um, a few months ago, who told me that they would cry if Parliament ever had a queer straight alliance? I hope they are gonna cry tonight because I hope this is gonna be an example of a queer [01:26:30] straight alliance standing up for all of our rights. And so far I've been so encouraged by how much progress we've made in this debate and to see that seven years on from the debate around civil unions that eight out of nine political party leaders are supporting this bill. I do believe as a country we are making progress. One of the reasons I support this bill is for my mom and [01:27:00] dad that when I came out, my parents really struggled. They didn't and they don't live in the lovely liberal bubble that I do in Wellington. They don't have my beautiful community to tell them that my identity and by association, they and their identity is OK and they've worried. They've worried for me and they've at times, [01:27:30] I believe, worried how people would judge them. So I want my parents to know that society has moved on and that there's less chance now that I or they will be judged for my sexuality. But most importantly, I think for me I want those people who have been bullying our queer young, our young, queer and trans people to know that as a society we've [01:28:00] ended legal discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, and we've taken one more step towards ending discrimination on the basis of gender identity. We have moved on and they are now well and truly out of step. While I've got no desire to marry. Even if someone was asking, I do want the possibility for my friends and others who want to. [01:28:30] I want to see that equality in our law civil unions are not equality. People who aren't told they can't do it can't tell us they are a. That's a quality. They are a compromise. They tell us and the rest of society that there's something intrinsically different about our emotions and our relationships. And while I absolutely celebrate difference [01:29:00] even after reading all the submissions and all the emails that tell me otherwise, I still do not believe that our love is essentially different. The day before the first reading, a friend celebrated five years together with her partner shares a part a house with her partner. They parent a child. Together, they share their lives together. That day they marched for marriage equality together because their [01:29:30] relationship is just as valid as any heterosexual couples. And while I definitely believe that that's true, without this law, I want them to know that this parliament also thinks that's true. I want them to be assured that we see their relationship as intrinsically the same as that between a loving man and woman. I want them and their little one [01:30:00] to know that this society does not discriminate on the basis of sexuality in one day entirely not on gender identity. And I want someone who is married and then transitions and their gender to the some and stays and is then married to somebody of the same gender, not to have to divorce their partner as they do now. And I want heterosexual [01:30:30] friends like my colleague Holly Walker, to be able to marry in good conscience, knowing her gay friends can, too, if that's what she wants to do. Marriage has changed over time, mostly for the better. And now it just needs this change to reflect our current social norm. I'm pleased the Greens and so many of us in this parliament recognise this issue for what it is. [01:31:00] An issue of rights and an opportunity to legislate for the possibility of a society without discrimination. The honourable cheers borrows. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr. Speaker, it is a privilege to be able to stand in the house and speak in this debate, and I want to congratulate members from right across the house for the way in which they have conducted this debate from the moment the bill was [01:31:30] introduced or even discussed right through the select committee process. And unfortunately, I wasn't part of that select committee process. But, um, all reports are that those people on that, uh, committee conducted themselves very well. I think it's a real shame that people in on different sides of this debate outside the chamber don't think those of us who think differently from others within the house hate enough. The fact is that all [01:32:00] of us can respect the views of those who are in here and making speeches tonight. And I find myself in the situation where I agree with so many speakers who are speaking both in the same way for the way I intend to vote. And those speaking against I do agree, for instance, with the last speaker, Jan, that all relationships should be treated in exactly the same way, whether they be a heterosexual marriage or whether they be a civil union [01:32:30] between heterosexual couples or gay couples or long term de facto relationships between heterosexual couples or gay couples. I believe that the fundamental issue here is the equality of of long term relationships and the status they have before the law. And I believe that that is the issue that we should have the courage to debate tonight. And I don't believe that by changing the definition of marriage to one to include gay couples [01:33:00] is the way to do it. I believe that that is, um, a way a a um uh A different way of trying to achieve the main objective, which is to achieve that legal status. Um, I find it abhorrent the way that various groups have acted throughout the course of this debate. Um, as a, uh, a Christian, a conservative Christian, I find it abhorrent the way that Christians have entered into this debate, the threatening [01:33:30] nature with which they have emailed colleagues. And I know colleagues who have, um, set out thinking they vote against this bill and change their mind because of the way they have been treated by Christians supposedly worshipping in their daily lives and witness a loving god. And if they profess to worship that God It's a different God that I worship and that I believe in because they have shown nothing of that love that all [01:34:00] encompassing love, um, in the way that they have conducted themselves within this debate. And it is unfortunate that in every debate where fundamentalist Christians get involved in lobbying one side or another, um, they always bring out the worst and seek to have those people who don't hold to our faith to shove us into a pigeon hole that would brand us all in the same way. And I think that is despicable for people of faith to, um, to [01:34:30] behave. My fundamental, um, concern with this bill is, as I stated earlier, it seeks to redefine marriage as something other than a heterosexual institution, which it has always been, albeit the odd. The odd exception, Uh, when some Greek wanted to marry, um, his man servant and no doubt, somewhere back in history, someone wanted to marry um, some other creature from other species. It doesn't mean, for instance, um, that [01:35:00] that, uh, detracts from that fundamental definition of what marriage is. Uh, marriage does not belong to Christianity. It doesn't belong to any, uh, religion. or ethnicity. Uh, it has been there since time and memorial, and it has always been, uh, rela relative to a heterosexual couple. I don't believe that changing that definition addresses the fundamental issues. Um, which are about [01:35:30] the equality of long term relationships before the law. And if, for instance, it is directed at, um the, uh, the prejudice within the adoption act, which is brought about by that definition of marriage, Then I need to state right here that I would vote for, um for that change, uh, in the adoption law, because I believe the overriding principle is what is in the best interests of Children. And so I think this house needs to have the courage to [01:36:00] define clearly what the issue is and to have that debate, no matter how unpopular that may be. Or no matter how much trouble we may well get into, I also want to just, um, acknowledge, too. Uh, a number of comments that members around the house has made, and that is how far we have come. And I know within my own experience how far I have come in relation to, uh, these issues and, um, my and And that is [01:36:30] about that circle of friends I acknowledge again Jan Loy, who talked about the liberal bubble that she lives in. The wider you, our experience within, uh or the wider the circle of friends. Then no doubt that brings in contact as it has to me, a number of gay friends and gay relatives that I, um, have love and treasure the friendship of and consider it a privilege to be part of their lives. And I have also experienced the prejudice that those people have experienced within the communities. Um, and, [01:37:00] uh, one particular cousin of mine, um, an exclusive brethren person who, having come out, has had to leave the faith. Um, and his family and his, um, his acknowledgement of his, um, status has meant that he has lost absolutely everything. And thankfully, he has been welcomed by a loving and caring gay community and an understanding heterosexual community. And, um, and I believe that is a good thing. Um, I want [01:37:30] to just, uh, finish off with, um, another point. And and that is this. That I think that, um, or the the comment that, um, made the honourable made in respect of decisions that we make, not affecting us. Um, the fact is that we are here making decisions that will affect the lives of others, and maybe they will affect us as well. Uh, I don't accept, uh, any suggestion, for instance, that, um, a gay couple being allowed to be married [01:38:00] is going to affect my, uh, 34 year marriage to Ella in the same way as my good friend Chris Oval doesn't see that it would affect his. That isn't the point. The point is that what we have is a group of people who will be affected by their fundamental beliefs in the fact that they see marriage as a heterosexual institution. By changing that, they will be affected in that way. And by enhancing the the the, uh, view of those who see it differently, [01:38:30] you automatically suppress those views. And I would have thought that people who had, um, lived under oppressive the oppressive, wrongly, oppressive, um, regime for so long would have understood that, and we could have found another way about it. I want to finish now because I recognise that time is short by once again restating that I think that this Parliament has conducted itself, um, with exceptional and integrity. And the population of New Zealand, no matter how they would vote on this issue, should recognise that the the fact that we can debate [01:39:00] strongly different points of view here, but acknowledge that they are different points of view. They are not lesser. Uh uh. They are not greater. They are just different. And the more that the public of New Zealand looking at this chamber recognise that the better we will all be. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Uh, the debate has now concluded the debate has now concluded, Uh, I, I wish to acquaint members with the process from here on because [01:39:30] we are, to some extent breaking new ground, we are now going to enter into the voting. But before I do that, I want to just read, uh, standing order 294. At the conclusion of the debate on the second reading of the bill, the speaker puts a question in the amendments recommended by the committee by majority. Um, therefore, I'm going to put whatever votes that we now have ahead of us, which may take us past 10 o'clock. It's standing order 294. So the first vote will be on the amendments [01:40:00] that the committee recommended. Uh, we will then go to the amendment in the name of Winston Peters and subsequently follow a process after that, Um, if, uh, I'll call the votes on the voices first when we get to the amendment, if a personal vote is required If there is a division, um, members should indicate, Uh, can I just say to the gallery you have been well behaved. I just asked for some decorum Why we do this voting. Thank you very much. The question is [01:40:30] that the amendments recorded by the government administration committee by majority be agreed to those of that opinion will say a contrary. No, the eyes have it. Party vote. It's a personal vote for the amendments. So members are calling a personal vote a personal vote. Yes, yes. No. I clearly heard personal vote call for I offered [01:41:00] a party vote and a personal vote was called for. So, uh, a personal vote will be held. Ring the bells, the eyes will go to the right. The nose will go to the left. Abstentions will come to the table. Tell us for the eyes will be Trevor Mallard. Eyes, uh, tell her for the nose will be a Tell her for the nose. Colonel [01:41:30] Bucky. Abstentions will be recorded by the clerk. And proxy votes must be marked as such. Yeah, time Their abstinence is right. The results. The eyes are 66. The nos are 21 and the abstentions [01:42:00] are two. Therefore, the motion from the Select Committee amendments is agreed to unlock the doors, unlock the doors. The next question is the amendment in the name of the right honourable Winston Peters, which is in order. So the question is that a referendum be held at the time of the next general election to decide whether the marriage Act 1955 should be amended to recognise marriage [01:42:30] between two people, regardless of their sex, sexual orientation or gender identity. Those of that opinion will say I con no personal vote. A personal vote will be held. Ring the bells, the eyes will go to the right. The nose will go to the left. Abstentions will come to the table. The teller for the eyes will be [01:43:00] Louise Upson. Tell her for the nose will be Trevor Ma the honourable Trevor Mallard He wins. Is it no done? [01:43:30] And the eyes are 33. The nos are 83. The amendment is not agreed to unlock the doors, Unlock the doors. Pull up. We come now to the vote on the second reading. The question is that the motion be agreed to Those of that opinion will say I no, no, it's a personal vote. [01:44:00] A personal vote will be held. Ring the bells, eyes will go to the right nose will go to the left. Abstentions will come to the table. Tell her for the eyes will be honourable Trevor Mallard. Tell us for the nose, Louise. Ups abstentions will be recorded by the clerk. Proxy votes must be marked as such [01:44:30] nearly there. Yeah, there are a couple of procedural things that have to be done After I declare the votes. I just ask members to contain their salutations, et cetera or grief stricken calls. Whatever. So the eyes are 77. The nos are 44. The motion [01:45:00] is agreed to unlock the door. Unlock the doors. Unlock order. Has the clerk announced? I didn't hear you. Could you do it again? Please? Marriage [01:45:30] definition of Marriage Amendment Bill Second, reading This, uh, this bill has sit down for committee Sage next sitting day. It only remains for me to say that the house will stand adjourned until 2 p. m. tomorrow. Good evening, everybody.

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TITLE: Parliament: Committee of the whole House debate on the Marriage (Definition of Marriage) Amendment Bill
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VOICES: Brendan Horan; Chester Borrows; Chris Auchinvole; Colin King; David Bennett; Ian McKelvie; Jacinda Ardern; Jo Goodhew; Kevin Hague; Moana Mackey; Paul Goldsmith; Paul Hutchison; Rajen Prasad; Ruth Dyson; Su'a William Sio; Te Ururoa Flavell; Tim Macindoe; Winston Peters
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Abraham Lincoln; Baptist Church; Barack Obama; Bill of Rights Act (1990); Brendan Horan; Catholicism; Chester Borrows; Chris Auchinvole; Civil Union Act (2004); Colin King; David Bennett; Family First NZ; Fran Wilde; Green Party; Human Rights Act (1993); Human Rights Commission; Ian McKelvie; Jacinda Ardern; Jo Goodhew; John Dew; Kevin Hague; Louisa Wall; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Marriage Equality; Member of Parliament; Moana Mackey; Mormonism; National Party; New Zealand First; New Zealand Labour Party; Paul Goldsmith; Paul Hutchison; Rajen Prasad; Ruth Dyson; Su'a William Sio; Switzerland; Te Paati Māori; Te Ururoa Flavell; Tim Barnett; Tim Macindoe; Trevor Mallard; Winston Peters; church; civil unions; conservative; discrimination; family; gay; homosexual; human rights; marriage; marriage equality; minority; referendum; religion; select committee; suicide
DATE: 27 March 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the Committee of the whole House debate on the Marriage (Definition of Marriage) Amendment Bill. The Bill passed this stage without any amendments.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Members. We now move to consideration of the marriage definition of marriage amendment. Bill, The question is that Clauses 1 to 7 and schedules one and two stand part there. A couple of others just like this. I call Kevin Hague. Thank you, Mr Chair. It's, um it's a pleasure to take the first call on this committee stage on marriage amendment. Bill. Uh, [00:00:30] Mr Chair, this is, in fact, a bill with, uh, a narrow scope. Uh, and it's a bill, uh, with, um with a a pretty straightforward purpose. It's one of the shorter bills, in fact, that this house considers. But it has been so a bill that has engendered some, uh, impassioned, uh, submissions both for and against, uh, and passionate debate [00:01:00] in this house that, uh, has, uh, has stood the house in good stead with the public public public have appreciated the tone with which, uh, members on all sides have debated the bill. But, sir, while, um, those, uh, submissions that have that have been heard, Um, A Against the bill and the speeches that have been made in this house against the bill have I am sure been sincere. They [00:01:30] have largely been motivated by fear by fear, sir, of concerns that are largely imaginary, uh, and fear that has been whipped up by a campaign in the community, Uh, lead particularly by a couple of individuals, uh, on a totally false basis. And so I know that in this debate this evening, we are going to be considering a number of supplementary order papers, [00:02:00] uh, to address, uh, imaginary concerns. And I don't in any way impugn the genuine nature of, um, of the members who are bringing those bills. They believe so that they are They are bringing those bills to do something. Uh, that is important. Um, but but the concerns that they are that they are raising are either ones that have already been dealt with in the bill, or they [00:02:30] are ones that are false concerns. Where there is, there is no problem whatsoever. Uh, and Mr Chair, uh, I will be taking I expect some further calls during the evening to address those SOPS. I want to particularly note, sir, that none of the supplementary order papers that has so far been tabled to amend the bill has come from a member of the government administration select committee. And I want to say, Mr Chair, that I believe that [00:03:00] that is because all of those members, uh who, uh, who set through set through the the bulk of the submissions. And I acknowledge so that Tim Min did did, in fact, uh, participate for for, um, for a meeting right towards the end. Um, but all of those who sat through the submissions and, um sorry, it's a It was 22 meetings at the at the end. All of those who sat through the analysis of the submissions, Um, [00:03:30] appreciate the complexity of the issues. Um, and understand why the select committee has made the very precise amendments to this bill that we did and all of the matters. Literally, sir, all of the matters that have been raised in the supplementary order papers so far tabled are ones that were very seriously considered by the sub committee and were rejected. [00:04:00] I want to I want to come to, um to the the SOPS about referendums. Um, because there are two that we're considering tonight. Uh, an idea. So that was rejected in the second reading. Um, of of this bill, uh, and one along with all of the other supplementary order papers. Uh, that that have been tabled to date, uh, will be will be, uh, opposed by our party. [00:04:30] Um and I'm sure, by by most members tonight the thing about referendums is that they're good for some situations. They're great for constitutional matters, for example, but they are a terrible, terrible way of addressing matters of human rights. Human rights are, by their very nature, inalienable. They are not an appropriate topic for referendums. They are also soon not an appropriate topic for the issue of minority rights, [00:05:00] because minority minority rights will, of course be rejected by a majority. And Mr Chair, I take the particular case of votes for women in Switzerland because of the nature of referendums, the use of referendums in that country. Those were only achieved in 1971. I might call the Honourable Ruth Dyson. Um, Mr Chairman, can I first of all, acknowledge [00:05:30] the member who's just resumed his seat? And I hope that at some point, um, during the rest of the committee stage of the debate, he's He's able to elaborate on that because I think the voting, the the voting ability for citizens. And the proud record that New Zealand has in comparison to those countries with that right to vote was determined by referendum is very worthy of comparison. I know there may be some who think the downfall of our society started when women won the right to vote. But I'm not one of those who shares that view. And I know, uh, David [00:06:00] Bennett doesn't agree with it, either. He supports the right of women to vote. Mr. Chairman, I want to acknowledge the work of the select committee, um, up to this process and particularly in relation to the supplementary order papers that the committee will be considering. But actually the work of the select committee generally, this is not an easy issue for us to have considered as a select committee. And I want to pay tribute to all the members of the select committee, those who sit on every single day [00:06:30] of it and those who just joined us at some time. Some of the stories, uh, we heard were really hard to listen to some of the stories that are told of how people from when they're very, very young, feel about being excluded from their families and being excluded from their communities, always feeling different. And how that how frustrating, how demoralising. And actually the worst part was how suicidal that [00:07:00] made people feel, particularly young people. We heard factual evidence of the much higher rate of suicide amongst young people whose sexual orientation was different than they had expected it to be, and different than their families and their communities expected to be. They were gay and lesbian and and weren't that out of their own choice with it? Because that's how they were born. Mr. Chairman, More than anything in this Parliament, we should strive [00:07:30] to make sure that our laws and our leadership and our attitude ensures that people who do others no harm, are made to feel part of our community, are made to feel as valued as they are valuable. And in my view, every gay and lesbian law abiding citizen in our country deserves the this support of our parliament to ensure that they never feel [00:08:00] second rate, that they never feel less worthy than anyone else, and that our law backs them in their love, which is the proposal that we are progressing tonight, Mr Chairman I also want to acknowledge the officials of our select committee. We didn't give them an easy time, frankly, and that again is directly in relation to some of the issues which we'll be debating tonight. Uh, it it we we had some interesting tensions. The tension between religious freedom and protecting [00:08:30] human rights was one that we found quite difficult to resolve. And I think we have got it absolutely right. And that's why I would be urging every member of the house to oppose the supplementary order papers which extend discrimination provisions to all marriage celebrants. I don't agree with that. I think when we say in this house, what should we tolerate is discrimination. What should we accept as being actions which clearly [00:09:00] breach our human rights provision? You know, they've been in place for nearly how long, A long time, two decades. That they are old provisions that are sacred provisions. When we say what actions should breach our human rights provision, I think we should do it with care. And we did that at the Select Committee. We said that religious freedoms should be exempt from those human rights provisions and therefore that [00:09:30] marriage celebrants who are associated with religious organisations should lawfully be backed to decline the obligation of Solomon a same sex marriage. Uh, our view was that it was already covered in the law, but we did a belt embraces approach to make sure that that religious freedom is maintained. We've specified it in our amendments to the legislation. Any further amendment? [00:10:00] Whether it's the SOP in the name of Sir William Seo or the SOP in the name of Doctor Paul Hutchison goes beyond what I think is fair and reasonable for this parliament to justify the SOP in the name of Sir William CO. A actually extends it and narrows it at the same time in a way that I think will give a confused message from this Parliament. And that's not one I want to give. I'm going to call Sir William. [00:10:30] Thank you. Uh, Miss Chairman, I want to introduced to the house for consideration. The supplementary order paper number 202 in my name. I wanna make some preliminary remarks about the supplementary order paper, uh, and the bill and then introduce the clauses that I have When President Obama indicated he would support same sex marriage. Most New Zealanders who believe in the sanctity of traditional marriage [00:11:00] between a man and a woman, did not expect that such change would occur so quickly in New Zealand, especially given New Zealand already had civil union laws which gave legal rights to same sex couples, and in particular when promises were made in this house that marriage would not be interfered with. I took a stance then in favour of the minority view of this house to not support the bill. I did so in accordance with the rights of freedom of conscience afforded to me on this issue and for the need to represent [00:11:30] the views held by many throughout my constituency by my family and friends, as well as the views expressed to me by religious groups. Many in the religious and faith communities, whether they are Christians, Muslims, Jewish, Hindu or other faiths have expressed and continued to express a view that marriage is a union of a man and woman. These beliefs are real and genuine. They are not made up, they are not fairy tales, they are [00:12:00] true and heartfelt, and many trace the source of this belief back through history to their deity. In addition, views expressed by my colleagues, friends and family members are also genuine and strongly held in favour of their right to be married, irrespective of their sex, sexual orientation or gender identity. I called on everyone then on both sides of the argument, to keep the debate respectful and dignified as this issue impacted [00:12:30] on colleagues, friends and family members. And I acknowledge that the House has conducted itself in that manner. The basis for my introducing my amendment at this late hour is because many of the churches prefer that this bill not pass at all. However, as reflected in the vote so far in this bill, it appears that if we are honest with ourselves, this bill may pass, thus launching New Zealand into new territory where we elevate same sex unions from civil unions [00:13:00] and provide new legal marriage freedoms for two people, regardless of their sex, sexual orientation or gender identity. If this be the will of the house that this bill passes at its third reading, then my amendments become critical in creating a balance between the religious freedoms currently enjoyed by religious and faith groups and the new same sex marriage freedoms provided for by this bill. My amendments aim to ensure that the newly created rights for same sex couples do [00:13:30] not infringe on the existing long held rights of church groups to continue to conduct their affairs with the freedom to hold on to their belief that marriage is between a man and a woman. My amendments make an appropriate distinction between the affairs of the state to protect the equality of rights for all citizens and the affairs of the church and how it conducts its affairs with its members whom have a traditional view of marriage. My amendment is in accordance with the desire of the Select Committee statement and [00:14:00] its report. It is our intention. I quote that the passage of this bill should not impact negatively upon people's religious freedoms. I acknowledge that the Select Committee has worked hard to address the issues of religious freedoms of belief and expression with the greatest respect. However, the select committee's recommendations do not protect persons and organisations from freedom of expression outside the context of a clergy who is authorised by the organisation to refuse to perform a specific marriage. [00:14:30] The select committee's recommendations do not protect church organisations from refusing to allow its premises that are occupied and used for religious purposes to be used for or in connection with same sex marriage ceremonies. The principles of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990 do not have supremacy in our laws and can be overridden by other legislation and because of the provisions in the main bill, specific provision is also now needed to protect the rights of those who believe [00:15:00] that marriage can only be between a man and a woman. My amendment provides protections that are clear in their intent and designed to avoid unintentional conflicts. My supplementary order paper produces introduces one amendment with three clauses in the first clause in two a. My amendment provides protection to religiously affiliated its celebrants or church minister if their personal beliefs are that marriage must be between a man and a woman, even if their religion Mrs [00:15:30] Chairman William, even if their religion is not absolutely against same sex marriages. The select committee's efforts refers to, and I quote the religious beliefs of the religious body that is the denomination as a whole. This means that all of the ministers of religion within the church are bound or otherwise by the religious belief of the church in relation to same sex marriage. There are currently two churches today that I am aware of who have not yet confirmed a formal position as a whole. Whether to accept [00:16:00] marriage of same sex couples or not. There is no protection for individual church ministers to conduct his or her religious role in accordance with their own conscience. In the absence of a formal position by the body of their church, I have tweaked the Select Committee, meant to include protection of freedom of belief and expression for individual church ministers whose religious organisations have not yet formalised a view on whether to accept same sex marriage or not, or whether the Church organisation has [00:16:30] refused to adopt an official position on the issue. My amendment provides this individual right to a church minister, pastor or rabbi in a situation where there is absence of a view by the whole body of their church. My amendment does not broaden out this individual right to civil celebrants and registries. Civil celebrants and registrars would not have this protection because they are performing a paid public service and this is in accordance with the position of Canada and the United Kingdom. [00:17:00] In the second clause, my amendment provides them to be that a person of religious or religious organisation will continue to have the freedom to express their views and provide counselling that marriage should be the union of a man and a woman to the exclusion of all others. The select committee is to be commended for repealing Section 56 of the Marriage Act, which was not compatible with the rights and freedoms set out in the Bill of Rights Act and the Human Rights Act. My amendment, however, explicitly removes [00:17:30] all doubt and provides greater certainty of these freedoms of religious belief and expression. And in the final clause, my amendment and two C provides for a religious organisation to refuse to allow its consecrated premises premises that are occupied and used for religious purposes, to be used for or in connection with, a marriage that is not a marriage between a man and woman. My amendment aligns with the Crown law of recommendations in their report and I quote, therefore, if parliament [00:18:00] intends that religious congregations not be required to permit their place of worship to be used for the solemnization of same sex marriages. Contrary to the religious belief, we recommend that this be made explicit in the legislation to put the issue beyond doubt. My recommend my amendment provides clarity and certainty of this right. I am not asking that we extend the rights to commercial for profit or investment property solely for [00:18:30] properties that are consecrated and occupied and used for religious purposes. I believe that without these this amendment and the necessary safeguard it provides for religious freedom. The recognition of same sex marriages will lead to socially divisive and entirely unnecessary conflicts. My supplementary order paper is in alignment with the intent and statement by the Select Committee. It reaffirms with certainty the freedoms of religious belief, conscience and manifestation as [00:19:00] provided in Section 13 and 15 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights. Despite the wonderful efforts of the Select Committee, which I acknowledge and thank them for the intention of parliament is not clear with this legislation as it now stands. Hence my amendments to clarify and provide greater certainty of religious freedoms in light of the new marriage freedoms for same sex couples. It is important that Parliament's intentions are crystal clear. Otherwise, what may occur is that [00:19:30] Parliament's intention may be challenged in a court of law in the future I have attached for the sake of members of this house in my supplementary order, paper references The Canadian law in Canada for people's information has some experience in maintaining this balance, given they have had same sex marriage since 2001, I seek consideration by this house, and I ask that you find in favour of my supplementary order paper the right honourable Winston [00:20:00] Peters. Uh, Mr Chair, we have heard that none of the proponents of SOPS uh, on this matter were members of the Government administration Committee. And, uh, as a consequence, they did not hear the arguments. They were not part of understanding the analysis. And they did. They did not appreciate the intensity of submissions. [00:20:30] And then we were also told that a referendum was rejected by MP S because it's good for some situations, but that it is a bad way of addressing human rights issues. I wonder what Abraham Lincoln would have thought in the 18 sixties to hear that an issue that went in the end because of its expansion, not the cause, but the expansion of slavery and the cessation of it led [00:21:00] to the civil war in the United States. I wonder what to Abraham. What not to have. I wonder what Abraham Lincoln, this magnificent leader when it comes to human rights, would have thought of such an argument. See, at the beginning of this debate last year, the proponents of the bill talked a lot about public opinion. One was reported as saying Quote twice as many New Zealanders support marriage equality as opposed to it. So we can now make it law. End of quotes. Or that we campaigned on this, Really, [00:21:30] I've got the manifesto here of a the party that said that and it said on this issue quotes, review and update relationship and relationship property law, that's it. Now, with the greatest respect, please make claims in this house that can be sustained by how it was pre warned to the electorate as to what was intended to be done. But some of us have been around long around long enough to know one thing that the public on this matter is seriously concerned, [00:22:00] and they are all over the place and divided on this issue. Opponents say one thing, and the proponents say something else. And what we want to know is, where does the majority lie in New Zealand, and it should not be reposed in 100 and 21 temporarily empowered members of parliament. That's the fundamental issue here. And then to come to the house and then start disputing the efficacy of an expanded democracy. Where you share [00:22:30] views with the with the public of this country in this computerised age is an extremely astonishing and alarming development. I know that there are people who want to ignore the public and pass laws, and we've seen it on asset sales and all other sorts of other things. But a lot of the people who were lining up for a public referendum on asset sales and mighty river power now say, Oh, but you can't have it on this issue so we can trust the public on mighty river power [00:23:00] and assets. But we can't trust them on moral issues, and I'll ask you again, where did some of the members of this Parliament ever attain that intellectual and moral and ethical superiority where they could shame facedly in front of the whole public and recorded by Hansard. Tell New Zealanders what they think of their views. How did it happen to our democracy in 2013 that people could be so bold? No pre election [00:23:30] warning, Just a postelection onslaught? No, the committee, the select committee process, has showed that the public is split. The public meetings show that the public is split. Letters to the editor say the public is split. Talk back radio, social media. All indicators suggest that this is a polarising and divisive issue in the community. And everyone here knows what my view of polls are, [00:24:00] what my view of polls is because they are so erroneous in New Zealand and they're so unprofessional that these things should be banned internationally. You get a 3% spread between five major pollsters. They meet to try and sort out what is wrong with our methodology. Here we have a 14% spread, and they carry on regardless. But when a poll is within 10% either way, then no one can tell me in this house or outside that they know what their neighbour, who [00:24:30] is the voter of this country and who we are meant to be the servant of really think so. What's wrong with asking them? The workplace is split. Churches are splits inside the church, churches are split, families are split. Where lies the majority is the issue that should be the most compelling for a member of Parliament who campaigned at the last election on the principle of democracy, the [00:25:00] speaker chairman, There's no consensus. There's no majority. There is no mandate. And you know you can ridicule it by saying, Well, uh, New Zealand first leader wants a man hyphened date and try and make out that that that a democratic dream is a issue of hilarity and humour or comedy. Let me tell that person who wrote that sort of thing that they would be the first victims, if that was what resided in this country, a contempt [00:25:30] for democracy itself. And yet we are here as Parliament, about to totally disregard public opinion, and all our referendum asked, is not that you don't get to have a vote, that you don't get to have a say or even have a majority in the South. All we ask you is to await a public referendum to endorse your claims of having a majority. Is that so bad? Can that be so wrong or, you know, again, I ask those members [00:26:00] if they were on other issues of importance, would they still say my conscience, right or wrong, regardless of the constituency? Now, as you know, Mr Speaker, Chairman, our position is well known. We've been consistent all along on this for years. We have never got up on the stage and said, We're gonna debunk that person's view or despise that person's view What we've said on day after day and night after night and [00:26:30] in more public meetings than most people here have ever had, and with bigger audiences, I might say, Why don't we trust the people, have a fully fledged public debate, even finance the quality of the debate? So it reaches above the blind and the bigoted to some rational, sane argument, and then ask the public what they think. We stand by that policy and tonight we are repeating our call. We want to find out where the truth lies. I've asked people I know and friends [00:27:00] of mine and acquaintances are not ashamed to know me who are both homosexual and lesbian, what they think. And I've been astonished by the answer by those who said, Well, I never asked for the Civil Union law, nor am I asking for this. I'm happy with what I've got or to be ambushed in the in the middle of the parliamentary night to find out. Well, I now that you're living in a long-term relationship, you're subject to a claim of 50% of your assets. These people [00:27:30] never asked, and they are homosexual. Perhaps they should have had a survey or a poll amongst them, but I haven't seen that yet. All I'm hearing is people claiming to represent a certain view. And if that view was correct, then why were there so few actions of the Civil Union bill? Why so few sought that path if they have a massive majority, even amongst a certain section in our society who they claim to be in support of this bill. [00:28:00] So to those who say it was in our election manifesto, we have to say, Well, show me because it can't be what I'm reading. And, uh, I would be fine, hard pressed to find any reference to this pre 2011. I have the manifesto. Nowhere in the document. Is there any statement of the Labour's intent, for example, to change the definition of marriage? It's not there. And we get, as I say on page 3 74 that commitment to review and update relationship [00:28:30] and relationship, property law, whatever that means. Apparently the media didn't know what it meant either. There was not one news story regarding Labour's stance on marriage in 2011. Not one. Uh, we have a report which says Labour supports gay adoption. We have reports saying Labour wants to prevent homophobia in schools, but no mention of marriage equality. Now, I'm not here to criticise people other than they put this in contention when they said it. So if you're gonna contend it, then prepared [00:29:00] for the examination of whether it's true or not, no billboards, no mail outs, no TV ads, no speeches, just a deafening silence. In fact, No, no, no. Mr Goff said in July 2011 that he saw no need to redefine marriage. He was the leader of the Labour Party, right up to the last election when whatever mandate or not, we all got came into effect. Now let's not forget [00:29:30] what we're talking about when we talk about this, because frankly, around New Zealand are a whole lot of voters and this is not a threat, but are gonna make up their mind on this issue. And I say to some of my colleagues in this Parliament that they have put in jeopardy serious jeopardy of the next election result that goes for national as well. It's a funny thing, isn't it? In the National Party, it's the list members that are going for [00:30:00] this bill and the ones that got a constituency seat in the main are going against it. Many of those are going for the referendum, and I say one more time. If you want us to say you want to survive electoral holocaust so I can go for the referendum, The time has come for me to leave the chair for the dinner break. This debate is interrupted. I shall resume the chair at 7. 30. The committee is resumed. [00:30:30] Well, thank you, Mrs Collins. Um, Honourable members. When we were debating this prior to the dinner break the right. Honourable Winston Peters had the call, and he had just completed his call. I remember him doing so. So I'm going to invite some other member to seek the call. Uh, I call the Honourable Member Jacinda Ardern. Thank you, Mr [00:31:00] Chair. Mr. Chair, this is my first and only speech that I will make on this spill. While I sat through all the stages, I have never felt like it was my place to take a speaking slot. There are just too many other people in this house who have played a far greater role or, uh who are more personally affected by it than I. But doesn't that say something in and of itself, the fact that whether this bill passes or not, my rights and my privileges as a heterosexual [00:31:30] woman will continue, I can choose to marry or not. I can choose to enter a civil union or not. I'm not the one who has experienced limitations on my rights or freedoms. And yet here I am privileged enough to have a vote to determine whether that right should be extended to others. And when it comes to whether or not that right should be granted. For me, there is no question the answer has always been Yes, [00:32:00] I say always for a reason. Debates of conscience such as these do tend to lead to questions over an individual members of Parliament set of values. I understand the natural curiosity that comes around our religious upbringings. They help people understand how we have come to a position or they simply cause to confuse. My story probably lends itself more to the letter. I was reminded of it recently while [00:32:30] cleaning out some old university papers and stumbled across an essay I had written for a comparative policy class in roughly the year 2000, arguing the case for civil unions a fairly unremarkable thing. I was, after all, a staunch member of the Labour Party. But I was also, at that time, a member of the Mormon Church. Mr. Chair, it's fair to say that I know what cognitive dissonance feels like. And when I started [00:33:00] campaigning for civil unions some time later, I decided that I couldn't sustain such competing value sets any longer, and I left the church. I understand the internal battle that some members in this house have shared during the course of this debate. But I can honestly say that my battle was never over choosing equality or not, but rather how to deal with the fact that the value of equality and fairness was in fact the only thing [00:33:30] I never ever doubted. While I am no longer a member of the Mormon Church, I greatly respect it and I respect its members. I also respect their right to choose how marriage is expressed within their religion and therefore who they perform marriages on behalf of. I would not support any part of a bill that removed that freedom from them. This parliament is giving the assurance to such [00:34:00] religious institutions today that this protection exists while Section 29 of the Marriage Act 1955 already states that quote a marriage licence shall authorise but not oblige any marriage celebrant to solemnise the marriage to which it relates. The Select committee went even further with drafting and assures that no celebrant who is a minister of religion recognised by a religious body and no celebrant who is a person nominated to perform [00:34:30] a marriage by an improved organisation, is obliged to solemnise If solemnising that marriage would contravene their religious beliefs. Not only does it law contain this protection, the hands start the record of this Parliament will record it. Also put simply, Mr Chair, the request laid out to us by institutions like the Mormon Church have been heard and have been met within the bill. No amendment [00:35:00] is required. Mr. Chair, I couldn't end my small contribution to this debate without acknowledging the roles of those who have paved the way for the marriage amendment. Bill Fran Wilde with homosexual law reform, Tim Barnett with civil unions and, of course, Lassa Wall for marriage equality but are behind each of these set community members who have fought hard with pride and in spite of personal anguish and attacks to get us where we are today [00:35:30] and they deserve our thanks, Mr. Chair. In 1948 my great uncle was imprisoned for no other reason than his sexuality. He was in a state prison for three years for what was then considered to be a crime, although in the eyes of the law we no longer criminalise the expression of someone's sexuality. I don't believe we will have a full, fully inclusive society until we remove all forms of discrim here until [00:36:00] until we reform, remove all forms of discrimination, be they physical bars or the stigma imposed by legal differentiation. That's why today, Mr Chair, I cast my vote on behalf of queer and questioning youth on behalf of my friends. And I cast it on behalf of my uncle members calling. I call the Honourable Member Tim Horan. [00:36:30] Brendan. I'm sorry, I'll. I'll put my glasses on. Apology accepted, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Mr. Chair, I take the call tonight to urge every member of this house to vote for a public referendum by postal vote to bring this bill into effect. That is provided for in supplementary order. Paper. 187 in my name. Mr. Chair, the opportunity to have a decision [00:37:00] made by the public of New Zealand should be welcomed by those both in support of and those opposed to the bill. There is nothing to be afraid of and everything to embrace. And, sir, the two speakers previous to me, uh, two speakers who, uh, two members that I respect very much. And the honourable Kevin Haig and and the honourable Ruth Dyson, um said, uh [00:37:30] uh words that actually disturb me and so far as suggesting that a referendum is contrary to the minority view and therefore the connotation that somehow if this went to referendum that the will of New Zealanders would be against this bill. And so to hear fellow MP S suggest that leaves me in a conundrum, because I was under the impression that we were here by the will of the people of [00:38:00] New Zealand and therefore should be exercising that will. So all of us in this chamber have been inundated with mail and email about this reform of marriage. It has generated strong passions on both sides of the debate. Same sex marriage is an issue that many New Zealanders have a very firm view on, and no one can argue that it has long term social ramifications for our society. Consultation by referendum [00:38:30] with New Zealanders is something that Parliament should do, rather than asserting a right to a conscience vote on a dramatic social change such as this. And importantly, I would defend the right of every voter to be able to choose either yes or no, there will be a clear choice made. New Zealanders will make that in a referendum and the fairest. It's the fairest and most sensible way forward. Mr Chair, If the 120 [00:39:00] men 121 men and women in this house purport to make the final decision on this major social change, then I fear that it will not be readily accepted by the broader New Zealand. And there is a potential sir to be creating a new group and to use uh, Louisa Wall's words, second class citizens whose feelings of injustice and resentment will last for years. Sir, I am concerned that bitterness, [00:39:30] acrimony and bigotry could linger. However, if we have a referendum and we go to the people of New Zealand, there is a far greater likelihood of broad acceptance of the outcome and consequently harmony in New Zealand. I would like to address some of the things that have been said and if we take the words from Chris Oval two weeks ago, where the honourable member said, a referendum [00:40:00] is something you call for when you cannot make up your mind. Well, on the contrary, I say, a referendum recognises that there are times when this house needs to recognise that there are prudent limits to the changes that it can initiate limits when it is necessary to obtain the endorsement of the public of New Zealand, who, after all, gave us the mandate to be here. So the Honourable member Kevin Hague, in the second reading identified [00:40:30] the key divide those New Zealanders on the one hand who see us as a pluralistic society in which parliament creates a supportive framework and those on the other who see that parliament should legislate for a strict code of behaviour. The referendum, I propose, is not to appease the chronologically advanced. It would not be able to be hijacked to become an election bandwagon. Rather, this [00:41:00] referendum is for all New Zealanders. It is for young New Zealanders, including those too young to understand and also those not yet born. It is also for those New Zealanders who feel a sense of helplessness who have not been able to exercise their voice. This is about the new World, Mr Chair. I would like the people in New Zealand in 10 years time to be able to look back and when they ask, was [00:41:30] this change this dramatic decision? The view of the nation. Or was it the decision of the state? Mr. Chair, Mr. Chair, Remember, Brendan. So this referendum will give that decision to the nation and divorce it from simply being the view of the state to give the decision to the nation for harmony, for oneness that our country's future [00:42:00] depends upon. I ask members to vote for the supplementary order paper. And, sir, I would reiterate that there is no need to be afraid. We are not in a totalitarian state. There is no need to fear giving power to the people of New Zealand. For after all, we are one country. We are one nation, and together we're all New Zealanders. Mr. Chair, I call the Honourable Member. Uh, thank [00:42:30] you, Mr Chair. And I'm happy to be filling in for my colleague, uh, Louisa Wall, who can't be here tonight. Um, and I was also happy to be a member who sat in on the Government administration select committee for the passage of this piece of legislation. Can I first of all, thank members for their interest in this debate and the tenor in which the debate has been carried out? Um, for the SOPS that people have drafted. I appreciate that they're done full sincerity of trying to get the best possible law that we can. Um and I'm hoping that my contribution may actually be able to provide some clarification. Uh, because I think we're [00:43:00] actually a lot closer than members might believe, uh, in terms of being an agreement on a lot of these issues. And the Government Administration Select Committee worked very, very hard on the issues that have been raised both in speeches and in SOPS, because we knew that we're dealing with the area of the Bill of Rights, the Human Rights Act. We had to be very careful about the wording. We had to be very careful about unintended consequences that might come from drafting that that hasn't had that kind of consideration given to it. And that's how we came up with the wording that we did. So if I can [00:43:30] move first to the to the main issue that people have been raising, which is the protection of religious freedom and the concerns that churches and religious organisations might be forced to marry gay couples against their own beliefs? Well, members may or may not know that Section 29 of the Marriage Act, which has been in place since 1955 actually states that a marriage licence shall authorise but not oblige any marriage celebrant to solemnise the marriage to wish it relates. Now that's been in place since 1955. There hasn't been an issue with that at all. [00:44:00] Not even since civil unions were passed in 2004 has just ended up going into some kind of legal stoush. But concerns were raised that the refusal to so on the grounds of sexual orientation, uh, might breach the Human Rights Act. Now the Human Rights Commission, which is the body that would investigate uh any such claim, have said they would not hold uphold a complaint of discrimination against a celebrant who declined to so a marriage. So that's in place there as well. So there is that protection of section 29. But to put it beyond doubt because [00:44:30] we recognise the genuine concerns that are being raised by submitters, the Select committee actually proposed an amendment to make it clear, because we appreciate that the marriage act predates the Human Rights Act and the Bill of Rights Act to make it clear that in this day and age, we do not believe that religious freedom of religious expression should be overruled by this piece of legislation and that any celebrant acting on behalf of or appointed by a church can refuse to marry any couple if to do so would contravene their religious beliefs. Now we deliberately included celebrants [00:45:00] and that. So this applies not just to religious ministers but to celebrants who are associated with those, uh, religious organisations as well. So the issue has now come down to what we call independent who are not acting on the authority of any church, and I want to remind members of the very important distinction between the role of church and the role of state. Here. Religious celebrants are acting on behalf of the religious organisation to whom they belong, and the state independent celebrants are acting solely on behalf of the [00:45:30] state. Uh, and I want to, uh, direct members to Section five of the Bill of Rights Act. This is the official information that we got from officials, which says that indeed it does allow rights affirmed under the Bill of Rights Act to be justifiably limited. Accordingly, an exemption could be justified where it would be contrary to the recognised purpose of religious bodies and approved organisations to require their celebrants to solemnise certain marriages. In contrast, independent marriage celebrants and registrars are appointed by the registered general [00:46:00] to perform a public function not to promote their own religious or personal beliefs. Now that separation between church and state is very important. Because if we now say that these public servants effectively carry out a public function, uh, are not subject to the Human Rights Act And what does that say for civil servants who work in the Department of Internal Affairs, for example, issuing the marriage certificates and what the select committee did was we left the door open to those celebrants who do have firm religious beliefs to go to their church and have their church appoint them, uh, as [00:46:30] acting under their authority. That way, they are given the full protection of this new clause which the Select committee has put in. Um, so I believe we have covered off that issue very, very carefully. Um, and I would be concerned if we were to vote up amendments which might muddy that because it was a very deliberate decision to make a separation between church and state. But but to provide an avenue for those celebrants who are currently independent who want to be able to exercise their own religious beliefs, Uh, and their own religious freedoms. So, [00:47:00] um and and can I just point out, uh, an issue of reality, which is this is actually unlikely to be a problem on one of the most important days of your life. I don't think that any couple is going to want to have someone presiding over this ceremony who doesn't want to be there and who is only there under threat of legal action. That's why this has never been an issue since 1955. It hasn't been an issue since the Civil Union Act came in in 2004. I don't believe it's going to be an issue going on into the future. Accept the principle of the matter. But in reality, I do not believe that anyone is going to be Mr Chair [00:47:30] and a genuine threat of prosecution. So we come to the issue of the use of church buildings and the ability to refuse supply of facilities or services. Can we be clear that churches will not across the board, be required to provide their facilities for same sex marriages? If this bill passes and I want to, uh, read to members from the Human Rights Commission opinion on this, it says in part, this reflects the fact that religious ceremonies and services are not an area of public life covered by the Human Rights Act. Similarly, ceremonial [00:48:00] or consecrated spaces or any other religious premises that are not made available for the public to hire are not covered by the Human Rights Act. However, when a religious organisation provides goods or services or accommodation to the public, they are held to the same non-discrimination standards as others. And this was actually backed up on the illegal opinion of of family First, um, so the idea that this is going to be carte blanche everyone has to provide their facilities is not true. Can I say to members that this has been the law for 20 years, that if you provide a commercial [00:48:30] service, you must do so in an anti discriminatory way, you may not discriminate on the grounds of sexual orientation And if members want to do that, then they should put up a bill to amend the Human Rights Act, which is actually where this It's not the marriage act, um, because it is a major winding back of our human rights legislation. If we now say that the law that's been in place for 20 years, where we haven't had any issues, uh, is now going to try to be wound back by an amendment, um, to the marriage act, so can I. Then come to the issue of freedom of [00:49:00] speech and concerns that, um, that the passage of the act may mean that some people cannot express their views on gay marriage. And one thing that came up was the section 56 of the Marriage Act, which none of us I believe knew existed. Which makes it an offence to deny the validity of someone's marriage. And there were fears that this could be used against those now who refuse to recognise the validity of same sex marriages. What's never been used? Uh, this penalty has never been exercised. It's a £100 fine. Um, and the select committee [00:49:30] basically said, Let's get rid of it. It's no longer appropriate. So that fear, uh, members do not need to worry that Section 56 may be used against people who speak out against same sex marriages. If I can move on to the issue of the referendum, um, and the SOPS uh, that are in place. And and the honourable Winston Peters said, So we're saying you can have a referendum on asset sales, but not on this issue. And I want to say absolutely that is not the case. Yes, you can have a referendum on this issue, but there is a process that we go through in this country to initiate referenda, [00:50:00] and that is absolutely open, uh, to members who oppose this bill, just as it was to members who oppose asset sales. What the SOPS are actually asking we do is to bypass that process is to override that process that is currently in place. And from my own personal view, I do strongly believe there are some issues that should not be determined by referendum, and I do not believe that the rights of any minority group should be subjected and only upheld on the will of the majority and members mentioned Switzerland where they do, uh, these issues a referendum [00:50:30] all the time. Uh, where as a result, women didn't get the vote until 1971 1971. And I want to tell members the reasons that were given at the time were that men and women were fundamentally different. Men and women were fundamentally different. And on the federal Department of Foreign Affairs website, they actually point out the order. Sorry, can I just remind members that you can interject on the speaker who has the floor? But you can't interject [00:51:00] on each other when you don't have the floor? If you want to do that, then it's not in this place. I call the Honourable Thank you. Um, very much Mr Speaker. So now on what they said at the time was one of the reasons given as to why women shouldn't be given the vote was quote. It wouldn't promote equality because their natural modesty would stop them going out to vote when pregnant. And since rural women have more babies and those in towns, this would go give an unfair advantage to the latter. So I think there are some intrinsic dangers in putting an issue like [00:51:30] that this to vote at a referendum. Now more generally, I want to. I want to address the issue that a number of people who've emailed us have talked about Children and what this might mean for Children. And I think we all agree in this house that marriage does afford benefits both legal and social. It provides stability. My question to members would be, Why should every child in this country not have access to those benefits? Why are we saying to Children who are currently living in same sex relationships? And they're there now? This bill doesn't pass. That isn't going to change that. They [00:52:00] don't get the full protections and benefits of marriage because some adults disagree with the relationship that their parents are in. I think if we're looking at the rights of Children in this country, then this bill actually does afford more legal rights and protections as well as social protections and to those Children who are being raised, uh, in those families, in terms of other matters very quickly, this will, uh, this will address an issue for transgender people where when they go through that process, they have to annul their marriage, Um, or choose [00:52:30] to, uh, remain listed as the original sex on the birth certificate, which puts a number of them in a horrible situation. This will address this, and some members say some gay people don't want this. That's true. They don't have to do it. But if they don't do it, it will be because they choose not to do it. Not because the state knowingly and deliberately excludes them from the institutions I call the Honourable Member Doctor Rajan Prasad. Thank you, Mr Chair. I, like a number of previous speakers, [00:53:00] was not able to take a call in the first two readings of this bill. So it's a pleasure to take this now. I want to come and speak specifically to Section five A. But before I do that, Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to reflect on the bill. Uh, and, uh, how I've gone about making my decision on this particular bill when, um when we're asked to exercise our conscience, there is no guidance in this parliament as to how that conscience needs [00:53:30] to be exercised. And so I did a number of things, Mr Chairman. One was certainly to look to consult my own community. Um, And as I went about consulting the ethnic communities in Auckland, their leaders, I certainly found a range of opinion, some supporting the direction of this bill as an element of 21st century society, uh, and others a sizable proportion of the ethnic community not comfortable with [00:54:00] the direction of this bill. And in fact, as you went further into that, you realised. So I realised that they were not confident that they were not not comfortable with the existence, the legality of gay relationships. And that is one matter that could not be re litigated. And there have been many who have consulted us and made submissions. Who would like to relitigate that primary? Uh uh, principle. And that's not up for debate here. New Zealand crossed that bridge in the [00:54:30] eighties, and so we're now talking about something else. Then I reflected with my family and friends some very, very dear friends who are members of the gay community, some highly respected New Zealand families who have Children and grandchildren of gay relationships, and I looked upon them and talked to some of them and realised that here we people in gay relationships with Children leading normal lives with no effect on anybody else. [00:55:00] Great citizens, great mums, great dads bringing up Children that anybody in this house would be very proud of. So that matter then became part of my conscience. The third element, Mr Chairman, was the fact that I was a human rights commissioner for New Zealand. And once you swear to uphold the human rights of New Zealand citizens, you don't do that for the period that you hold that mandate. [00:55:30] You do it for all time. And so for me, in the end, it became a question of the rights of New Zealand citizens and for me, then it became very simple and very clear that we our laws, did not permit discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation. And that indeed was enough for me to put all of the arguments together. All of the consultations that I had carried out together to say there was only one position one could take on this particular [00:56:00] bill, which was to support it, because I'd also want to look into the eyes of those Children, those mums and dads and those friends of mine and those leaders of our community who are members of this community and and they to look them in the eye and say that when the time came to express their rights in this parliament and the only way I knew how, then I did the right thing. So from that point of view, it was the right thing to do and I'm very pleased and proud [00:56:30] to be able to support that. I know that members of my own community will not accept that. But I asked them to reflect on New Zealand's history. I asked them to reflect on where New Zealand's history, its presence and its future and that's the country to which us as migrants have committed to. And we have to accept some of those things, particularly when a parliament such as this, the most democratic in the world makes a decision. So for those points of view, Mr Speaker, I was pleased there was one final element [00:57:00] pleased to support this bill. There was one final element, Mr Chairman, that influenced me and this it was this that this bill takes nothing away from anybody. It actually takes nothing away, and those who argue that it does somehow reduce us as a society in terms of our spirituality. Certainly have a difficulty with me because there's nothing about my relationship, my family, my marriage [00:57:30] that is negated or diminished in any way. I know that marriage, the institution of marriage, has developed for a long time and no doubt will continue to develop. It is not set in a form that has always been the same. It has always developed, and a bit like our society and our civilization. This institution will also develop. Mr. Chairman, I want to come. Mr. Chairman, Chairman, Dr Rajan Prasad. Thank you, Mr Chairman. I do want to come [00:58:00] to Clause five A. I also had concerns about the role of ministers and the role of marriage celebrants. And there was a time when I thought that hang on. This this does impose this does create some difficulties and and how, And I wondered how the Select committee was going to work its way through this. And I'm very pleased with what they've done in clarifying [00:58:30] Section five, a section 29 of the act itself. And I think it's a very, very elegant way in which they've gone about doing this because they first underscore the the the principle that a marriage licence shall authorise but not oblige any marriage celebrant. And I think that provides all of the protection that I require for a marriage celebrant that says I'm not obliged to do this And I [00:59:00] can't imagine of any couple who would then want to use a marriage celebrant who expressed strong views. So, So So so For that reason, I accept the the the clarification. I also accept that the avoidance of doubt clause that has been written in into the new section 29 is also very powerful because it does satisfy those with strong religious beliefs and they are across a number of religions. They are protected, and so they should be. [00:59:30] So that satisfied the 22 of the major requirements I had. Then I come to the SOPS. All of I have difficulty with all of the SOPS that that comment on the role of marriage celebrants because I think inadvertently those sops are now licencing discrimination itself. And so I don't believe we need to [01:00:00] go beyond what is already in the amendments to this bill because to do anything else We argue against the very principles that certainly have led me to the position I take because in the end it will be discriminatory. And it is. This is not the time of place for us to include provisions in our acts that are discriminatory for no other reason. It's almost goes round in circles because we're saying to [01:00:30] saying that because you want to discriminate, it's OK to discriminate and yet the whole thing is about anti discrimination. And if that's where we start from, then Mr Chairman, I believe that none of the sops I cannot conscience support because to go beyond where they this particular amendment goes, would be unfair would be illogical and would be unnecessary. It does address concerns of our citizens, but I think we must shape responses to those concerns rather than accept [01:01:00] them and make the amendments that they require. Because the unintended consequences, as Mona Meki says, are too terrible to contemplate. They would be and I could not look then the people I talked about earlier in the face to say that I supported that, so I will not be voting for those kinds of amendments I do accept. However, the sincerity with which members have raised those in this particular particular house, and I know where it's coming from and I know what [01:01:30] what lies behind it. But I take comfort from the fact that the religious freedoms that are necessary and protected in our legislation human rights at the moment are protected here as well. So, Mr Speaker, with those comments, I want to thank those who have participated in this bill, the care with which they have made those comments. And I trust that those listening will accept that this is not a knee jerk reaction. It's been a long process. It's a process that I've gone [01:02:00] through personally and in many, many discussions arrive at a point that I now articulate, and I know that many will be disappointed, and I know that many, many more will not be disappointed. I want to be able to look at both those communities in the eye and say we have taken nothing away from anybody. We have in fact enabled us to be the kind of caring society we aspire to be, And if we create those who are inside and those who are outside, [01:02:30] then I believe We have done that for too long already, and this is not the time or the place to do it, and I certainly will not want to be part of it. So with those comments, I will support the bill I call the Honourable Member Paul Goldsmith. Mr. Chair, uh, reading Tony Blair's autobiography some time back, I was struck by his observation about politics. When you decide, you divide [01:03:00] and I'm conscious of the grave responsibility. Uh, that's on the house this evening, so I I've certainly struggled with this bill and given it a great deal of thought because it lies in the territory between two of my core political philosophies. Uh, my conservative instincts on one hand lead me to respect traditions and the wisdoms of, uh, the wisdom of centuries. Marriage has traditionally been, uh, conceived as between a man and a woman, and, uh, the British [01:03:30] and Christian traditions for centuries has been between one single man and one single woman, and that's only been the case because it's made perfectly good sense, and institutions and ideas change over time. But the conservative in me makes me hesitate before changing something that has served society well for so long. And I certainly understand and respect the strength of feeling, uh, of many New Zealanders who feel that we should keep things the way they are running parallel to that. However, [01:04:00] my guiding political belief is my commitment to freedom for people to live their lives in different ways with respect. Life is interesting. Society is dynamic. Culture is diverse when people are free and have the liberty to live in different ways. 25 odd years ago, we agreed that the state shouldn't allow, uh shouldn't outlaw homosexual acts. And very few people disagree with that now. So I can understand why some gay couples would like to have access [01:04:30] to the institution of marriage. And people often ask, Well, why do they want marriage when they can have civil unions already? The answer, of course, is that words are important, which is why people on both sides feel so strongly about it. So on balance, Uh, Mr Chair, I've decided that for me, freedom or individual conscience Trump's, uh, tradition. So I am supporting this bill. My background has been, uh, that I was raised in the Christian [01:05:00] faith in the Baptist Church and many of my relatives and and friends from that background are disappointed that I'm voting for this bill, and I understand their disappointment. But I would remind them that the Baptist Church was born out of the idea of non-conformity. Uh, the early Baptists gathered together because they disagreed with aspects of the established church and suffered terribly for their individual beliefs. And that tolerance of religious nonconformity which [01:05:30] English speaking peoples had arrived at certainly by the 19th century was fundamental in establishing many of the freedoms and the liberties that we enjoy today. And we are so much better for it, accepting that we can all live together in a society, even though we fundamentally disagree on matters that are very dear to our hearts. Many people have also raised the matter of defending the role of the family as the bedrock of society. Is this bill weakening the family? [01:06:00] I'm not convinced that it is. I do believe that strong and responsible families are essential to a successful society and that there is much work to do to strengthen families. But the real political battleground there, if there is indeed such a battleground, in my view, is over the messages and signals that the state sends, particularly through its welfare policies. In my view, the signal that the state has sent over uh, the past few decades through welfare policies has [01:06:30] in many ways undermined the family, and dealing with that is far more important than whether gay couples can call themselves married or not. In my view, turning back to the bill like many of my national colleagues, I needed first to be reassured that freedom of religion would be maintained so that no marriage celebrant would be forced to marry gay couples against their will. Those assurances were given, and an amendment to the bill strengthened protection for marriage celebrants. And I'm sure the will of Parliament on [01:07:00] this matter is very clear. Uh, an SOP by my colleagues and do and and Mitchell make that even, uh, even clearer. I. I also voted for a proposal that there be a referendum on this topic before the bill became law. I see it as materially different to a referendum on government policy, such as parcel assets, where the government policy was explicitly outlined before an election and as core to economic policy in those circumstances, To my mind, there's no argument [01:07:30] for a separate separate referendum. It seems to me, though, on matters of major social change such as this, particularly when there have has been relatively little discussion before or during an election campaign, a referendum is appropriate. So, uh, I was disappointed that that was, uh, lost, and I support No, that's enough. Thank you. I call the Honourable Member David Bennett. Thank you, Mr Chair. And I just want to take a short call following on from [01:08:00] my, um, colleague and, um, about the referendum issue. Uh uh, as somebody that's not married, um, for anybody to get married. I think that's a great thing. And so, um, I see both sides of the argument and, um and, uh, and encouraged by anybody that wishes to follow that path. And, uh um, as electricity, we have had numerous correspondence and meetings with people, um, on both sides of the debate, and, um, and understand the issues [01:08:30] raised on both sides of the debate. And I just want to thank everybody that has been part of that. Especially proponents of the bill in this house for the way they've done that. Um, I think they've done it in a very fair and open way. And, um, I'd like to thank them for that. And, um, and thank the members of the community that have shown their opinion. Um, outside this parliament tonight, we actually have, uh, people showing both sides of the argument. And, um, it becomes a question of whether we in this house really should be making that decision. [01:09:00] And it's my firm belief that, um, this is a decision that we can all hold opinions on, and some of us may not have strong opinions. Some of us may not know exactly which way they should vote, and it's going to be difficult to make a decision one way or the other. But I do believe it is an issue that could go to the public. It's a situation where the public could make their own mind up on. It is not a situation where there are hidden issues that [01:09:30] politicians have to understand and debate. It's not an issue that would be complex in the sense that it would be difficult to get the message out for the public. It's not an issue that you need a a public petition to get the number of votes to set the referendum off. Um, this part parliament can decide to have such a referendum. And I disagree with the the context that it's been said that a referendum would be, um uh not the right way [01:10:00] of dealing with this issue. This is the particular issue that is the right thing for a referendum to deal with. Um, and this is the time, which would be a particularly strong time for the public to do a referendum on this issue because there has been a very measured and developed public debate around this issue. Um, I think we need to give the public their say on this issue. Um, I don't know if we are elected to make [01:10:30] this decision here today. Um, I believe that we are here to debate this issue, and I believe that we are here to put this issue in front of the public, and I commend those people that have done that, but I actually believe it's up to the public to make that final decision. Um, at this stage. And so, um, and some members may say Be brave. Well, I think it is being brave to actually accept that. We don't know everything in this house to [01:11:00] be able to say no. They'd be able to say, at some point in time, we need to listen to the people. And that's what I implore this house to do. Um, I do not personally have a strong opinion for or against this bill. Um, um, I understand the arguments on both sides, and, uh, and many people will make assumptions that you are either for or against on the way you you vote. But I do believe in the New Zealand public. I do believe in the sincerity [01:11:30] of people to make a decision. I do not believe that the New Zealand public would make decisions based on preconceptions or, um, in any way wanting to hurt their fellow citizens. I believe that the New Zealand public can be trusted. They will take an open mind to this, as politicians in this house have. And if we can trust 100 and 20 of us to make that decision, why can't we trust 4 million of us to make the same decision? [01:12:00] And what's the difference between us and the people outside? There is no difference. We are all New Zealanders. We should all have this decision. This is a perfect opportunity for a referendum. I support the New Zealand First Party in bringing that forward. And I look forward to this house voting that way. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Welcome. I call the Honourable Member. [01:12:30] Uh [01:13:00] uh uh [01:13:30] uh [01:14:00] [01:14:30] [01:15:00] [01:15:30] [01:16:00] [01:16:30] Mr Speaker. [01:17:00] [01:17:30] Mr. Speaker The honourable member. [01:18:00] [01:18:30] Uh [01:19:00] uh [01:19:30] [01:20:00] Mr [01:20:30] No OK, [01:21:00] I call the Honourable Member Ian McKelvin. Thank you, Mr Chair. Uh, I've, uh I take the opportunity to speak tonight in this debate with a degree of sadness, but I can no longer give uh, the bill my support. And I wish to explain why Firstly, I do not accept that the marriage act, as it currently stands, denies anyone a human right. We all have the right to act and behave as we see fit in life. We have the right to choose our partners or our wife or our husband. [01:21:30] We have the right to join them in legal, civil union or marriage is appropriate. The act as it stands certainly denies many people the right to marry. And so it should. There are other positions, roles and opportunities that cannot be taken, used or filled by us in life. And that's how it will always be. We have the right to respect respect for our differences. Respect for our opinions, Chris. One of the greatest attributes a human can have is the ability to tolerate difference, to accept others for what they are or believe, [01:22:00] and to give them the opportunity to thrive and lead a positive, fruitful life. Mr. Chair, On that note, I want to acknowledge all who participated in the debate on this bill, all who behaved in the best spirit of this house. We are attempting to negotiate, to legislate, to eliminate difference in this bill and for no other reason than to overturn the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman and make it available to everyone. But I'm sorry, but that's not the way of the world. It's not the business of parliament to rural institution that has been in place in [01:22:30] life for thousands of years. I can tell you now, this Parliament will not be able to turn a sheep into a goat no matter how hard it tries. It is not our business. Uh, in my view, to do that. All the changes proposed in the course of this leg of change could be done through strengthening the civil union bill. In fact, the whole objective could have been affected through changes to the civil union bill without affecting the status of many thousands. In fact, millions of New Zealanders who have married in good faith [01:23:00] over the years stated in her closing statement on the second reading and voting on this bill. I hope the house will give a message to young people. You don't have to change, You can be who you are and where society will value who you are. Mr. Chair, this bill creates a situation that's not about young people or old people. It's about all of us. It's about finding a way for us to live in harmony and I don't believe that we've handled this matter appropriately [01:23:30] and the actions we are proposing to take in passing this bill, I find myself in the odd position of agreeing with the leader of New Zealand first. There is no mandate for this house to pass this bill. I've already said that it's not the place of parliament to make this decision It's the place of the people, and they have not been consulted satisfactorily. Mr. Chair, I'm not a great supporter of referendum, but in this case, I need to be. And so, as a consequence, we'll be supporting the bill. I would also like the statement. Mr. Chair, I voted for this [01:24:00] bill in the first, uh uh, reading and I voted for it because I genuinely believe we needed to find a solution to this issue. I still believe that I can't, however, accept that this bill is the best way to deal with it. Thank you, Mr Chair. I call the Honourable Member Tim McIndoe. Thank you, Mr Chair. Could I begin by acknowledging the courteous and I think intelligent and sensitive way in which the vast majority of members of this house have conducted [01:24:30] themselves throughout all stages of this debate. It is, of course, one of the most highly charged and emotional subjects that we've ever been asked to grapple with. And many people who have been listening to the debate, whether they're for or against it have commented to me how impressed they've been that they think it has been parliament at its best. Could I also acknowledge Mya Mackie, who's in the chair at the moment. Earlier tonight, she called for those who are promoting SOPS, and I'm one of them to clarify their protections for people of conscience that the sponsor of the bill [01:25:00] promised the nation and which the Government Administration Committee has tried to secure to instead promote changes to the Human Rights Act. I certainly had to consider that in looking to put my SOP together, but it was very clear that that would have been well outside the scope of this bill and would not reflect the concerns or the intentions of those who are promoting the supplementary order papers, or at least the ones that I've read. There may be more to be tabled. My supplementary order paper, however, does refer [01:25:30] to the Human Rights Act to ensure that marriage, celebrants and others, I guess in what might be called the wedding business will not be subject to prosecution in the future. If for reasons of belief or personal philosophy which may have nothing to do with religion, they are unwilling to conduct or participate in same sex marriages. Now that is a very important protection for organisations such as the Roman Catholic Church, and I want to acknowledge the plea for our understanding that we've received from the church, including [01:26:00] Archbishop John Jew. I'm not a Roman Catholic, but I certainly read his submission particularly carefully. My own views on this bill are well known because I've had the privilege of speaking in both the first and the second readings of this debate. I did so in the second reading because I had been a substitute member of the government administration committee. So in this particular call, I want to explain my thinking on the issue of the referendum. And like the speaker who's just spoken before me, I don't often agree with Winston Peters either. But on this occasion, I do support [01:26:30] his supplementary order paper calling for a referendum, and the reason is because this clearly was not an election issue in 2011, and it is one of the most divisive issues of our time. The only time in the whole of the 2011 campaign that I, as a candidate for Hamilton West was asked. How I might vote on this issue was when I attended a meeting which was also attended by Kevin Haig and a few other members of this house, uh, at a nightclub. And it was a meeting organised by our GL [01:27:00] BT community in Hamilton, and it was certainly quite a challenging meeting. But it was also one that was conducted with courtesy. And contrary to the nonsense that has frequently been written about me in this debate, including just in the last few hours on Facebook, I want to say again that I am neither anti gay nor homophobic. I certainly don't want to support any form of discrimination. Most of my gay friends know that and acknowledge that not all gays, of course, think alike on this issue, [01:27:30] just as not all Christians do. And many of my gay friends and acquaintances have paid me the compliment of reading the speeches that I have delivered and responding to me intelligently. I acknowledge the fact that many of them don't agree with me, but I thank them for that engagement, and they have paid me the compliment of saying they understand where I'm coming from on this issue. By contrast, those who have been vitriolic in their attacks have never engaged with the arguments that I've put forward, [01:28:00] and it's conspicuous when I read what they post about me and about others who have spoken on this bill that when they constantly learn, use terms like bigot and homophobic, they are running away from real engagement in the debate, and it says far more about them than it does about me or about others who have a different view from theirs. So I respect the many gays who have contacted me intelligently and insensitively to engage on the issue. [01:28:30] I respect them. I thank them for respecting me. Like many MP SI wish I didn't have to express a view on this topic. I acknowledge my friend David Bennett a minute ago, who explained that so many of us find ourselves in a position where we have to because we're here and this issue has arisen. But there are so many New Zealanders who currently feel disenfranchised and deeply disturbed by what is occurring, because it is a fundamental social change [01:29:00] that they are despairing of the fact that this has come upon us in this parliament without their any opportunity to influence the way we would vote. None of my constituents, apart from the few who attended that GL BT meeting that I mentioned in Hamilton just before the election had any reasonable way to indicate to me their vote. I call the Honourable Member Joe. Thank you, Mr Chair. I hadn't intended to take a call, but I'm here in the [01:29:30] house on what we call duty, and I've decided that I will do, in fact, what I suppose is, in fact, my duty, my duty not only to vote on this bill, but to lay on the record the reasons that I will be voting for this bill. Many of my constituents have been surprised at my positive support for the bill, and many of them have contacted me and sought to turn my view around. In some [01:30:00] cases, um, they have demanded I turn my view around, and in many cases, they have sought to persuade me, um, we have, over the course of this bill heard, um, a lot of the information or read a lot of the information from family first. Um, it has come repeatedly to our inboxes, but what The reasons I'm voting for this bill is several fold. Firstly, I [01:30:30] do not believe my marriage or the marriage of other New Zealanders will be in any way diminished by this bill. In fact, it is because I believe so strongly in marriage and my marriage that I understand why other couples want to be married too. Yeah, and I don't see why I should have that privilege, that right with other people, that other people in loving relationships and relationships [01:31:00] that they enter into for life just as I did, why they can't have that privilege as well. And there in lies, the equality. I don't subscribe to the stories of the moral decline that will surely follow the passing of this bill. And I have found it unfortunate that some of the language that I've been treated to, um has been, um, so strident and, um, a little unfortunate. [01:31:30] I have made the point that I respect other people's views and would never ask them to do anything to contravene their views. I only ask the same for myself, and I do want to add to the record that some of the most poignant stories have been the stories that I can't tell because they are the stories of individuals who have also contacted me and told me how important this is to them. Um, [01:32:00] I'm going to finish there, but I'm pleased now that I have set the record straight as to why I will be supporting this bill. One of the last things I lay on the record is that I am very concerned, as I've already mentioned that no one should have to take action in a way that contravenes their beliefs. And for that reason, I will be voting for one of the SOPS, which I hope adds to the committee only adds to the committee's complete conviction that no person should have to perform a marriage, no celebrant or member [01:32:30] of the clergy. Um, if it is against their beliefs and I am voting for that in the hope that it will further add to the record our conviction about that Mr Chair. Thank you. I call the Honourable Member Chris. Thank you, Mr Chairman. I hadn't intended to speak particularly about the referendum, but I will in fact start with that because the and I am opposed to referendum referenda [01:33:00] as a system of, uh, decision making in this type of government. But the proposal to have a referendum is in keeping with New Zealand first tradition with their practises and with it's what they do and I respect them for that. And I think they're very since they are very sincere in promoting a referendum. In this case, they've always liked them, even though they don't always benefit from them. And I think of, uh um, the right [01:33:30] honourable Winston Peters. And I think it was compulsory superannuation, wasn't it, when there was a ghastly result to the Reverend. So, you know, courage and er, and one could hardly complain about New Zealand first putting forward their proposal, and I'm sure they'll all vote for it. I won't. The reason the reason I won't is that I'm very conscious in my mind that the law should not be used to exclude people, and neither should referenda be used [01:34:00] to exclude people. And I think that could be the result of using a referendum. In this case, we have heard that it's recommended because it will involve people. What it won't do is inform people, and this is a case where you really do, I think, need a lot of information to come to any sort of a sensible decision and so a referendum in this case would of itself be divisive and opinion driven, no matter which way the result [01:34:30] might go, The purpose of our being here is to legislate based on the information we have considered. I was deeply grateful to Moana Mackie, my, uh, colleague at the committee meeting for her presentation of, uh, facts this evening. It did. I feel set things in context very clearly, but in this respect, Mr Speaker, I can, uh, Mr Chairman, I completely understand the supplementary order [01:35:00] papers that are coming forward because they reflect exactly the same sequence of thought processes which we went through as a committee. The difference is that they've come in at this stage without the benefit that we had of a number of weeks. To carefully consider which parts of the bill the amendment should be directed to in regards to the SOPS. If I may, uh, complement [01:35:30] the work done by Sir William and the way it was presented. And again, I'd like to say to that member that I have no doubt about the sincerity with which he approached the task. However, if I may, I have a few arguments against the provisions that have been put forward. The first one about the celebrants, religious and independent. This wasn't something that we treated [01:36:00] lightly at all. The select committee fully investigated this section. And their amendment, I consider best, reflects the advice that we received on this issue. The current section 29 and 29 A, as recommended by the Select Committee, already provides strong protection, which they have, uh, which has been stronger protection than has been there before. A triple protection is really not going to achieve anything other than [01:36:30] increase the chances of litigation. And this is not, uh I mean, if you look at the old uh, the old uh, sorry. The the, uh, section 29 it's pretty sort of, general and that, you know, uh, you may but are not obliged to conduct the wedding, and then we made it a little bit more specific for religious people. But if you then go further again, you are becoming more and more specific, and [01:37:00] spec spec that specificity, uh, introduces new opportunities for litigation. And, you know, honestly, do you really think people want to lawyer up reach for the lawyers? What are you doing? Reaching for your lawyers. Well, I'm intending to get married, so I must sue some. I don't honestly think it'll be like that, but we made provision for it. Basically, the act needs to be read consistently with the [01:37:30] Bill of Rights Act and the Human Rights Act. I'm I'm surprised that we have SOP suggesting that those acts should be negated. What is it you want to do that? Um uh avoids those Mr. Chair, the Honourable Member. Chris. Thank you. The Ministry of Justice expressly stated in its advice to the select Committee we re we and we were very impressed with the quality of service [01:38:00] we got from the ministry officials. We recommend that the exemption extend to religious bodies and approved organisations, but not to independent marriage celebrants or registrars A key purpose of religious bodies. And I think it is very important. And most approved organisations is to promote religious beliefs. And therefore there's something that lawyers would understand much better than I and that is a hierarchy of, uh um purpose. So Section five of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act [01:38:30] allows rights affirmed under under the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act to be justifiably limited. Accordingly, an exemption could be justified where it would be contrary to the recognised purpose of religious bodies and approved organisations to require their celebrants to solemnise certain marriages. In contrast, independent marriage celebrants and registrars are appointed by the Registrar general to perform a public function not to promote their own religious [01:39:00] or personal beliefs. It appears unlikely that they could lawfully be refuse to solemnise a marriage on religious grants. Under Section five of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, the select committee extended the exemption for religious bodies and approved organisations in section 29 A. When we look at the, uh, call for freedom of expression, uh, where it's, uh, no challenge may be made under any act to the lawfulness of the following conduct [01:39:30] by a person or organisation, provided that the conduct is based on the belief or conviction that marriage should be the union of a man or a woman. I have a few problems with this one, Mr Chairman, because, um, the Select Committee have removed Section 56 of the Marriage Act that made it an offence to question another's marriage. The removal ensures no person can be convicted of expressing such a view. Incidentally, there never was a prosecution under that section. [01:40:00] I have some problem with the drafting of this particular recommendation. Because what it does say, Mr Speaker, is that, um yes, uh, the mar the or the conviction that marriage should be the union of a man or a woman. It doesn't add exclusively. And so you could easily add after that or two people of the same gender. So I think the the the the proposals are from a drafting point of view riddled with difficulties, especially when we start talking about, [01:40:30] um, the need to identify the genders and just who's going to do that sort of thing? Yeah, exactly enough. We don't need to start thinking in that direction, but that is one of the difficulties about introducing specific requirements. Uh, against the, um uh, the the the bill as it is the, um the use of premises for marriage. What we understand there, uh, Mr [01:41:00] Chairman, is that no challenge may be made under any act to the lawfulness of a refusal by a religious body or approved organisation to allow premises being premises that are occupied and used by the body of the organisation for an association with its religious purposes to be used for in connection with the marriage. That is not a marriage between a man and a woman. There is a fundamental difference, Mr Chairman, between private and public spaces. We don't leave it to churches and organisations to determine whether they sell their services [01:41:30] or not. We should leave the bill as it is, and it protects religious freedom. And the Human Rights Commission has been clear that there's a distinction between private and public places. Mr. Speaker, I really understand where these submissions are coming from. I understand the, uh, impulses that have brought them forward. It's not strange to members of the committee. We have been through the same processes. I think given time people will come. As [01:42:00] Moana Mackey said, Pretty much we're we're fairly close to where we would have been. Uh, I think we can move forward and trust the bill. We should pass this bill. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I call the Honourable Member Sua William a lover, fellow lover, chairman. I just want to take a short call in responding to some of the comments by the former speaker, Uh, just to provide some clarity [01:42:30] for the consideration of the house. Um, the wording that I've used in this draught of the supplementary order paper, uh, regardless of sex, sexual orientation or gender identity, is consistent with the bill that's in hand. Um, and you'll find that in section four of the the main bill that we're discussing, that's the wording that it has marriage between two people, regardless [01:43:00] of their sex, sexual orientation or gender identity. So my amendment, the words that I'm using are consistent with the main bill. That's the first point. Second thing is I. I take on board what the select committee have done. It's not an easy job and accept fully the sincerity of their, uh, desire to protect these, uh, these these religious freedom In the first part of my amendment, um, I've tweaked and add it to ensure [01:43:30] that because the the slick committee says with refers to, uh, marriage celeb, but who are authorised by the body of their church. We have a case currently where the Anglican Church and Presbyterian, as a body, do not have a position one way or the other, and ministers and on their individual basis are divided on the issue. So my amendment provides the protection to that individual minister who whose body of religion had not yet [01:44:00] made a decision of whether to adopt, uh, a formal position one way or the other in in terms of the, uh, uh, section B part B of my amendment. Um, yes, the committee I acknowledge removed section 56 because that was incompatible by the rights provided the freedom of religion provided by the the Bill of Rights Act. However, it it doesn't state that those rights are there. And we know and those of [01:44:30] you who are in the legal fraternity will understand that the Bill of rights do not have supremacy in our laws, and any other act can therefore, uh, overcome or, uh, that particular bill. And finally, in terms of the, um, in the last amendment of my last clause of my amendment with regard to premises, I make reference specifically to religious premises consecrated [01:45:00] for the purposes occupied and used for religious purposes only, and I'm asking that that protection be there. I'm not worried about premises that are used for profit commercial or investment purposes. That's not the intention of my amendment. And finally, it's also not the intention, and I want to make it clear of it's not the intention of my amendment to cover broadly protection for civil, uh, marriage celebrant because civil marriage, celebrant and registers [01:45:30] are conducting a public service and are paid for I. My amendment in the hold is about providing certainty and greater certainty for the freedoms of religion that are provided for in the Bill of Rights. And I'm simply wanting those rights to be explicitly part of the bill. And that's why I ask, though it's in the late in the piece, I do ask and hope that members of the House can have consideration. It's about balancing the [01:46:00] rights provided by the state of protecting equality for all members as as versus the rights of the church and how churches conduct their affairs with its members. Uh, Doctor Paul Hutchison, You Mr Chair, thank you for the opportunity to speak on the committee stages of this highly controversial and important bill, which I continue to support. I want to start [01:46:30] by acknowledging the incredible energy effort and thought put into submissions from both sides of the discussion. I also want to acknowledge the very high quality report of the Select committee. I believe that this sort of report shows our Parliament at its very best when dealing with views that are passionately held and are about human [01:47:00] rights and beliefs. I also want to acknowledge the huge number of letters, emails, discussions that I've had in the electorate that I'm so honoured to represent. I've got great respect for the sincerity of all those comments. On many occasions I've referred people who have written me written to me to the select committee's comments as highly worthy of reading. [01:47:30] And I do note that the commentary, uh, mentioned that in some European jurisdictions a marriage is authorised and registered by the state first, and a couple is then free to choose to have a religious or cultural ceremony appropriate to them. Perhaps that's the ideal in terms of solving human rights here in New Zealand. From both sides [01:48:00] of the issue, there was a very strong message that marriage celebrants, church or independent should not be compelled to carry out a ceremony if it was against their wishes to do so. Hence the amendment that I have tabled, which is in line with several other SOPS but in my case is simple and conforms with the second option the Parliamentary Council put before the Select [01:48:30] committee. I'm absolutely aware that the Select Committee spent significant time with parliamentary Council and others discussing the options for amending Section two during the superb second reading speech of my colleague Chris Oval. He mentioned that of over 9000 marriage celebrants in New Zealand, only two only two. As he put it, Submissions were sent to the select committee. [01:49:00] But I've since contacted the clerk of the committee and others, and no one seems able to identify those two or remember exactly what they said, even my esteemed friend and colleague Chris. However, I've read carefully through the Celebrants Association of New Zealand submission and while they support the bill, they have two major concerns. One was to quote the continued Abbi ability [01:49:30] of celebrants to officiate only at ceremonies of their own choosing. It's accepted that any law is challenging through the courts or subject to change by the parliament as we are seeing in the United States, as we debate here in the parliament in New Zealand today, what we write into this bill will surely give a signal as to the intention of the parliament for any future court challenges. Hopefully, [01:50:00] however, court challenges will not happen. This amendment is not just about triple protection for a specific group, the churches or independent marriage celebrants, but seeks to extend that protection to all celebrants in the spirit of equality and inclusiveness which underpins this bill. I do note that schedule one of this bill only includes Christian churches [01:50:30] and would not protect other religions such as practised by my colleague. All marriage celebrants, either independent or church, are in fact facilitating the state's requirements in terms of the marriage certification. While it's accepted that a key purpose of religious bodies and most approved organisations is to promote religious beliefs, surely that should not [01:51:00] override the religious beliefs or philosophical or humanitarian convictions of independence, marriage, celebrants or other significant religious bodies. Some have argued that my amendment will lead to independent marriage celebrants saying No, Mr Chair, saying, saying no for all sorts of spurious reasons. Exactly the same could be said of the churches. Surely [01:51:30] the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act should apply in an even handed way at some peril to open a can of worms. A powerful corollary to providing individual choice in perhaps an even more contentious area is the Contraception sterilisation and Abortion Act 1977 where the conscientious, conscientious objection clause provides [01:52:00] explicit and clear exemption, overriding any rule of law, terms of any oath or any contract. Many may say such a degree of protection is quite inappropriate today and needs to be reviewed in reality. In a country such as New Zealand, where there is not entirely clear separation between church and state and a lot has been written about that, [01:52:30] I suggest these protections remain necessary and practical. So, Mr Chair, I call upon all members to carefully reconsider their proxies to support my amendment instead, which is designed to protect choice for all marriage celebrants in the spirit of equality and inclusiveness, which is what this bill is about. Honourable Cheers. Thank you, Mr Chair, [01:53:00] I'd like to, uh, speak in support of the need for, um, a supplementary order paper with respect to protecting the ability of, um, celebrants to be able to refuse to marry gay couples depending on their, uh, the way they see this particular issue. And I have some, um, sensitivity around it. Having been a married a civil. Um, um, independent marriage celebrant for a number of years, I have, I think, officiated about 100 weddings. And, uh, in [01:53:30] the last three weeks, I've I've, um uh done a tag team with someone who is currently licenced because I'm not currently licenced having uh, handed in my warrant when I became a bit busy as an MP. But I've officiated at two weddings in the last three or four weeks, and I am, uh, happily officiating at my nephew's wedding. Uh, this Sunday, Um, I would also like to point out a lot. People have said those civil, uh, or independent celebrants, uh, do it for the money, and they are authorised by the state, so they should marry all [01:54:00] comers. Um, in actual fact, the time I've accepted a bottle of wine as a full payment. Um, because I saw this as some way that I could help people within my community. I wasn't doing it for any particular award. Um, at times, when mileage was required, et cetera, et cetera. Then we got up to 100 bucks, But generally it was for a bottle of plunk. Uh, having said that, the the point is, um, I believe quite specific here because I agree that there are protections within the bill as it is at the moment. Um, that protect those celebrants who [01:54:30] are, um, uh, authorise or endorse as part of the organisation they belong to, as long as their, um, organisation that is, in effect, their sponsor to be a a cele, um, has a position on gay marriage, and it's been raised already tonight that there are churches, um, for instance, that don't, uh, hold official, um, positions on this issue the member number of members within their community do. But those people who are in the position as I was as an independent, uh, celebrant [01:55:00] would not be protected in this way. Um, and yet, and although there is, um, a clause there that says no celebrant has to is obliged to marry any couple that presents themselves, um, for marriage, the fact is, you would have to tell a lie not to, uh, not to perform that marriage. And And people have said to me even people that I'm very friendly with just there, you could always just say you're busy. But in fact that would be [01:55:30] that would not be true. That would not be true in the case in the case, he's only good to listen to for so long. Um, the point. The point of the matter is this. That if if I decided I wasn't going to marry a gay couple who presented themselves for marriage, it would be because I didn't agree with gay marriage to go and create some other fanciful reason that my diary was full would be telling a lie in effect. And I don't [01:56:00] think people should be put into that position. It's the same as someone, a shopkeeper who doesn't have to serve somebody in a shop. If they come in, they want to buy some goods. He can decide whether or not he wants to sell those goods to that person coming in a shop. That's fine. But the Human Rights Act prohibits that shopkeeper from refusing to serve that person on the basis of a number of those bases within the Human Rights Act, one of them being sexual orientation, race, colour, creed and all the rest of it And so it should. But, uh, there [01:56:30] is an alignment with what? Um, my friend, Um, Doctor Paul Hutchison was saying, we're talking about, um, people, for instance, within the medical fraternity, um, who are able to rely on their moral code beliefs, well held religious or otherwise, not to perform, um, certain procedures that people present themselves for. You can think, for instance, of, uh, circumcision of male child Children some years ago. Um, a doctor wasn't required to perform that if they didn't believe that that [01:57:00] that was, uh, within their keeping or ethics. And the performance of terminations is exactly the same. If people can think that this issue is different, it is not, uh a a medical practitioner is dealing with the physical. That's right. A person, uh, in in my position as a, um a celebrant who got into it through community service and and, uh, initiated through, um, a faith interest is dealing with something spiritual. And I don't believe that the physical and the spiritual could necessarily just be, um, conveniently [01:57:30] uh uh uh, protracted or diverged. For those reasons, I think that it is very important that we have a, uh uh an amendment to this bill that makes it quite clear that an independent celebrant, um, can decide not to marry a couple. A gay couple who present or any couple who present themselves. Um, on because of that, uh, because of that situation, I just underline it like this, too, If a couple came to me and were And, uh, if it came round to their wedding day and they turned [01:58:00] up Mr Chair, uh, Morris and they turned up and they were drunk, I wouldn't marry them because I don't believe they're in the right space in their heads to get married. If, uh, if they turned up and if they turned up to, uh, present themselves asking me to take their wedding. And I believe that the woman was obviously suffering from, um, physical abuse and had been assaulted, or was there in some way not there? Um, because she wanted to get married to this guy because she was under some sort of duress or pressure. [01:58:30] I wouldn't marry them. And that would be fine because the law says you're covered. You don't have to. But if I decided not to marry the couple that present themselves for marriage because of any of those bases under the Human Rights Act. I am acting illegally and I believe, as a celebrant, as an independent celebrant, even when only authorised civilly and not promoted by some organisation of faith, I should have the ability to decline that marriage. Thank you. You do, Tim McIndoe, Mr. Chair, I'd like [01:59:00] to begin by acknowledging my friend Chester Burrows and that fine contribution could I also, um, in particular acknowledge Sir William Seo, who spoke a short time ago and indeed, earlier this evening, in a previous call. I think that all members of this house have had particular challenges in dealing with this issue, regardless of what side we're on. But I particularly want to acknowledge Mrs who I think has faced unique challenges in dealing with this issue and has, in my view, conducted himself with great integrity and conviction. And I wish to acknowledge [01:59:30] that and put it on the record and to wish him well with his supplementary order paper, which in many respects I think is very similar to mine. But there are some differences which I'll come to in a minute a minute ago, Mr. Chair When I was, um, interrupted in a previous call, I was just making the point that none of my constituents with with the few with the exception of a few who had attended a meeting of the GL BT community just before the election, had had any way of ascertaining what my views were on this issue. So that in casting their votes for a potential MP [02:00:00] for Hamilton West that can't have been something that they were taking into account. And that is one of the reasons why I felt that I should consider the call for a referendum on this issue, because I have been, um, criticised, as many in this house will know for allowing my faith to influence my conscience vote in this matter. I have to say that for any person of faith, what could be more important as a foundation than faith in determining our view [02:00:30] on a conscience vote? Others have different beliefs from mine, of course, and I respect that. But my faith and my values and my beliefs are the foundation, the cornerstone for my conscience vote. So I cast my vote in the 1st and 2nd readings of this debate according to my conscience, but because I acknowledge that many voters in Hamilton West and of course elsewhere in the country may disagree with me. [02:01:00] In fact, of course, many do. I also decided to support the call for a referendum, and immediately some of the same people who attacked me for voting according to my conscience rather than trying to reflect theirs, then accused me of cowardice, of all things, for wanting to let the public have their say. Well, I say to those people, You can't have it both ways. I will vote for a referendum again tonight not so much because I think it's the best way to decide the outcome. [02:01:30] But because that way I can exercise my conscience while also enabling as many electors in Hamilton West as possible, who wish to to exercise theirs as well. And that seems a pretty reasonable compromise. I want to turn back now to outline more of my thinking behind the supplementary order paper that I've tabled, and at the outset I want to acknowledge my friend Mark Mitchell, who has this evening tabled an amendment to my supplementary order paper and to say to members [02:02:00] I fully support Mark's thinking and I urge members to support his amendment as well as my supplementary order paper. I thank Mark for the work that he has done on this issue. I think he has improved and clarified my SOP when I was present for discussions in the Government Administration Select Committee and that was on two occasions. There was considerable focus on whether those who on the grounds of conscience would not feel able to participate in a formal [02:02:30] or professional capacity in a same sex marriage would be respected and protected. In that view, the majority of the committee, of course, said that they would be, and the bill's sponsor, who I acknowledge who I think has conducted herself with decency and a real sense of determination in this matter has also always promised that they will be protected. But the important thing is that legal opinion on this matter is deeply divided. [02:03:00] So my supplementary order paper seeks to guarantee the assurances that Lesa Wall and the Government Administration Committee say they support. So I urge all MP S, whether in favour or opposed to the substantive bill to support my amendment, and I want to read to you just some of the wording from Mark Mitchell's amendment that no marriage celebrant is obliged to solemnise a marriage if solemnising, that marriage would conflict with religious or philosophical [02:03:30] beliefs of the individual, or of the religious body or approved organisation, if any, to which he or she belongs. So it is designed to be comprehensive and fair to give the assurances in clear language that the sponsor of the bill and many others have claimed, should be there. For those who have, as a matter of conscience, a different opinion on this issue, it is not therefore about re [02:04:00] legalising discrimination, which has been alleged by quite a number of people who have spoken this evening or who have written. Those who claim that that would re legalise discrimination are surely throwing open to real risk, including legal challenge. Those who might wish, through reasons of good faith and conscience, to stand by their convictions. It is therefore, about protecting churches, celebrants and [02:04:30] others from being forced to act contrary to their concerns. I urge members to support it. Uh, Colin King, Mr Chair, thank you very much. It's, um, with great consideration that I I take this call. Uh, we've got a bill in front of us that, uh, doesn't sit comfortably with me, But I guess that we've all been in select committees from time to time where we have had, um a view about [02:05:00] a bill that, um, gets the majority vote and goes forward. And I just want to grab this opportunity to support those people who have put for, uh for SOPS. Because in the context of it all, when you look at the bill as it stands, there certainly doesn't provide me with sufficient comfort that the the the the principles and the values that the individual may hold [02:05:30] are taken adequately into consideration. So when we look at the bill there on clause five A where it applies to section 29 is amended. Uh, sub clause two talks about it without limiting in generality the subsection, uh, sub clause one no celebrant who is a a minister of religion and it goes on and talks about authorised organisations, approved organisations. [02:06:00] And there's no doubt been some work given and thought, uh applied to that particular bill and it stands comfortably with me that we need to clarify that so that there is a level of certainty that the the individuals view and I can think of many people out there who as an MP we've all supported to become a a celebrant. And yet they are not actually [02:06:30] associated with any organisation authorised organisation as it says, or, uh, a church. And on that basis, I think it's very important that members of the house here as we go forward on a very serious matter that involves a whole lot of ramifications that we do. Look at those SOPS that are tabled, uh, and and consider that we support those bills [02:07:00] now. My particular situation is that, um I've chosen to support a bill that has been put forward by Tim Macao and and Mark, uh, and it encapsulates, I believe, the most, uh, essential elements that would add value to the bill. And I do acknowledge William CO over there as well. It's so heartening to those of us who who find the bill somewhat challenging to actually see that when it does go through [02:07:30] that it will be given the, uh clarity and certainty to those people who have to administer it in one shape or form and And I acknowledge those other speakers, especially Chester Burroughs, who talked about, uh, giving these people a good, solid platform on which they can actually have approached by people of the same sex who want to be married, uh, can and can decline gracefully because we appreciate that there is [02:08:00] elements of, uh, society that needs to be, uh, considered in such way. So, Mr Speaker, uh, when we look at the the actual preamble to the bill, it talked about the level of people who are actually married at registry office. It talks about 23% 32% in churches or organisations, uh, and 45 people, 45% by individual celebrants. So, on that basis, I would urge the House to seriously consider [02:08:30] the SOPS that have been put forward, uh, with a view to adding special clarification to the individual's right to say whether they will or will not. Thank you, Mr Speaker, If, uh, no other member is seeking a call, I think it would be helpful to the house if I explain the process a little bit from this point on because I'm going to commence the voting without a closure. If we're not concluded at 10 o'clock, the voting will stop at [02:09:00] the conclusion of the vote that crosses the 10 o'clock. I'm not predicting that will happen. I'm just saying that in the eventuality that that happens, Um, the the second point I I wish to make when it comes to, um uh I think there's four or five amendments and starting with William CO, we will vote on these chronologically as they were tabled. Now, if the first one [02:09:30] passes a majority, it negatives the subsequent ones. So members need to be quite clear in their mind. Which of those, uh, amendments, uh is the one that they personally want to follow? Because I need to explain that before we start the third issue I wish to just acquaint the house with is from standing order 2981 and and I'll read it for you. Uh, the committee of the whole house considers a bill to determine whether [02:10:00] the bill properly incorporates the principle or objects of the bill as read at the second time in the house. So the second reading declares the intent of the house in relation to the bill and in that regard. The house voted down an amendment to have a referendum. So the first point is that the two refer, uh, two amendments, one in the name of Brendan Horan, the other in the name of the right honourable Winston Peters. To have referendums [02:10:30] are out of order because of standing order 2981 when the House has already declared its intent. So we move to the amendment in the name of Sir William the. So the question is a point of order. Brendan Horton. My my referendum was distinctly different from, uh, SOP 188. And I have cleared that with the house. Um, [02:11:00] the issue of referendum is the guiding principle upon which that has made I have sought advice. I have consulted with the various, uh, uh, references that we have available to us and, uh, both the the two amendments are out of order. So the question is that Sir William C OS amendment to replace Clause five a a point of order David Bennett if for the house to grant, um uh, the [02:11:30] option of having the referendum one leave us so for that purpose, is there anyone opposed to that? course of action. Yes, there is. So we move to Sir William C OS amendment to replace Pause five A as set out on SOP number 202. Those of that opinion will say a contrary. No nose. Have it. I have it. A party vote. [02:12:00] Uh, the members should call. I declare a party. They have asked for a personal. There will be a personal vote. Ring the bells, The eyes will go to the right. The nose will go to the left and abstentions will come to the table. The teller for the eyes will be teller for the eyes, for you are Tell her for the eyes. Tell her for the nose. Trevor [02:12:30] Honourable Trevor Mallard abstentions will come to the table. Proxy votes must be marked as such. The question is that Sir William Seo's amendment to replace Clause five a as set out on SOP number 202 be agreed to. The eyes are 22. The [02:13:00] nos are 87. The motion is not agreed to unlock the doors. Unlock the doors. The next question order. The next question is Mark Mitchell's typescript amendment to Tim Min's amendment set out on SOP number 203. The question is that the amendment to the amendment be agreed to those of that opinion will say, I con no eyes have [02:13:30] it order I'll I'll Reut. I'll Reut on the voices. Uh, those of that opinion will say I contrary. No eyes have it personal vote. The clerk will conduct a personal vote. Uh, ring the bells. [02:14:00] The eyes will go to the right. The nose will go to the left. Abstentions will come to the table. Tell her for the eyes will be Mark Mitchell. Tell us for the eyes will be Tim McIndoe. Tell us for the nose Honourable Trevor Mallard. Abstentions will be recorded by the clerk. Proxy votes must be marked as such. The question is that the marked Mitchell Typescript amendment to ti Tim Min dos [02:14:30] amendment set out on SOP number 203 be agreed to. The eyes are 35. The nos are 80. The amendment to the amendment is not agreed to. We unlock the doors, unlock the doors a point of order. The honourable Ruth Dyson. Mr. Chairman, I regret to, um, ask the leave so early in the voting, but I seek leave to correct the, um, voting record of the First Amendment. That of honourable, uh, of, um, Cyril MC [02:15:00] O Amendment 202. When I regret, I admitted to have vote for which I carry a proxy recorded in opposition to that SOP. Uh, so you are seeking leave to correct the vote leave as sought for that purpose. Is there anyone opposed to that course of action? There appears not. The record will show the amended numbers. So we move now to Tim MDOS amendment to replace a point of order of the [02:15:30] amendment. The amendment was not carried. Yes, I read. I declared it. And then they've called. Unlock the doors. We're now on to the next one. Sorry, I'll do it again. For the members, the, uh the eyes were 35. The nose were 80. Right? So we now move to the Tim McIndoe amendment to replace Clause five A as set out on SOP number 203. The question is that the amendment [02:16:00] be agreed to Those of that opinion will say I contrary. No, the party personal vote the C a personal vote will be conducted. Ring the bells. Uh, eyes will go to the right nose will go to the left. Abstentions will come to the table. Tell her for the eyes will be Tim McIndoe. Tell us for the nose will be the honourable Trevor Mallard. Abstentions will be recorded by the clerk. [02:16:30] Proxy votes must be marked as such. Get so. The question is that that Tim Macedo's amendment to replace Clause five A has set out on SOP number 203 be agreed to. The eyes are 36. The nos are 80. The, uh, amendment is not agreed to. We come to the last of the SOPS in the name of Unlock the doors, unlock [02:17:00] the doors. We come to the last of the SOPS in the name of Doctor Paul Hutchison type script amendments to Clause five A. The question is the amendments be agreed to. Those of that opinion will say a contrary, no personal vote. A personal vote will be held. Ring the bells, the eyes will go to the right. The nose will go to the left. Abstentions will come to the table. Tell us for the eyes will be doctor Paul Hutchison. [02:17:30] Tell her for the nose will be the honourable Trevor Mallard abstentions will be recorded by the clerk. Proxy votes must be marked as such. Lock the doors. The question is that Paul Hutchison's typescript Amendments to Clause five a be agreed to the eyes are 18. The nos are 85. Abstentions are one. The amendment is not agreed to. Unlock [02:18:00] the doors. Unlock the doors, members. We come now to the substantive vote on clauses 1 to 7 and the schedules one and two. The question is that Clauses 1 to 7 and schedules one and two stand. But those of that opinion will say I contrary. No. A personal vote. A personal vote will be held. Ring the bells, the eyes will go to the right. The nose will go to the left. Abstentions [02:18:30] will come to the table. The teller for the eyes will be Trevor Mallard. The honourable Trevor Mallard. Uh, the teller for the nose will be Tim McIndoe. Abstentions will be recorded by the clerk. Proxy votes must be marked as such. Lock the doors. The question is that closes 1 to 7 and schedules one and two stand part. [02:19:00] The eyes are 77 the nose of 43. The questions are agreed to unlock the doors. Unlock the doors. I will report this bill without amendment forthwith from the second the House has resumed. Mr. Chairman Mr. Speaker, the committee has considered the holidays [02:19:30] full recognition of Waitangi Day and ANZAC Day Amendment Bill and reports, uh, it without amendment. The committee has also considered the marriage definition of marriage amendment Bill and reports it, uh, without amendment. Mr. Speaker, I move that the report be adopted. Thank you. Honourable members. The question is that the report be adopted. Those of that opinion will please say I to the contrary. Know the eyes have it. The bills [02:20:00] are set down for third reading. Next sitting day, honourable members of the house stands adjourned until 2 p. m. tomorrow. Good evening.

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TITLE: Parliament: third reading of the Marriage (Definition of Marriage) Amendment Bill
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VOICES: Chester Borrows; Chris Auchinvole; Grant Robertson; Jami-Lee Ross; John Banks; Jonathan Young; Kevin Hague; Kris Faafoi; Lindsay Tisch; Louisa Wall; Maryan Street; Maurice Williamson; Moana Mackey; Mojo Mathers; Nikki Kaye; Paul Hutchison; Ruth Dyson; Tau Henare; Te Ururoa Flavell; Winston Peters
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; ACT New Zealand; Aotearoa New Zealand; Chester Borrows; Chris Auchinvole; Civil Union Act (2004); Clive Aspin; Family First NZ; Grant Robertson; Green Party; Harvey Milk; Heterosexuals Unafraid of Gays (HUG); Jami-Lee Ross; Jenny Rowan; John Banks; Jonathan Young; Jools Joslin; Joseph Habgood; Kevin Hague; Kris Faafoi; Louisa Wall; Margaret Mayman; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Maryan Street; Maurice Williamson; Moana Mackey; Mojo Mathers; National Party; New Zealand First; New Zealand Labour Party; Nikki Kaye; Parliament TV; Parliament buildings; Paul Hutchison; Q Youth (Nelson); Richard Flinn; Ruth Dyson; Seb Stewart; Tabby Besley; Tau Henare; Te Ururoa Flavell; Tiriti o Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi; Wellington; Winston Peters; adoption; children; civil rights; civil unions; equality; family; homophobia; homosexual law reform; human rights; justice; law; love; marriage; marriage equality; parents; relationships; religion; suicide; takatāpui; whānau; youth
DATE: 17 April 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the third reading of the Marriage (Definition of Marriage) Amendment Bill. It was introduced into Parliament by Labour MP Louisa Wall on 29 August 2012 and read for a third time on 17 April 2013. The Bill passed its third and final reading - 77 ayes / 44 noes.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I call on members Order of the day Number two, Marriage Definition of Marriage Amendment Bill Third reading. Mr. Speaker, I move that the marriage definition of marriage Amendment Bill be now read a third time, Mr Speaker, My observation and my time in the house has been that there are a few occasions when the public gallery is full [00:00:30] to overflowing. This bill has seen a full gallery at the 1st and 2nd readings and again tonight. My only other experience of that has been treaty settlement legislation recording the agreement reached between Maori and the Crown. In both instances, the parties affected are a minority group who've been marginalised. They've been dealt with unjustly under the law and steps are being taken to right the wrongs they've suffered. And it shows me that this process [00:01:00] matters. Having parliament recognise and address injustices and unfairness matters to those affected by it. It's the start of the healing process. This third reading is our road towards healing and including all citizens in our state institution of marriage, regardless of their sex, sexual orientation or gender identity. While our focus has been on a it's important to remember we are one country. That's part of a global community [00:01:30] discussing marriage equality. 12 countries have already been through this process. The US president has declared his support unequivocally. The queen has recently signed a Commonwealth charter that explicitly opposes all forms of discrimination, which she describes as emphasising inclusiveness. The UK, led by their prime minister, has introduced legislation. But marriage equality is only one issue. There's still a lot of work to be done [00:02:00] to address discrimination against our LGBTI communities. Closer to home, many of our Pacific neighbours still criminalise homosexuality. So too, in countries of our new migrant communities, we need to understand these heritage identities and how they contribute to this debate. As the indigenous people of a we can acknowledge that have always been part of our history and culture. And that is the case for [00:02:30] many indigenous people around the world. And man are words that go back in time to identify LGBTI. They are part of our Pacific heritage and need to be acknowledged, and we need to learn from history. Marriage laws have continually been used as a tool of oppression. The Nuremberg laws in 1935 prohibited marriage between German nationals and Jews. [00:03:00] The South African Immorality Act and the Prohibition of Mixed Marriage Act prohibited marriage and sexual contact between races until it was repealed in 1985. 40 US states prohibited interracial marriage. Women lost all property rights and their identity on marriage. Excluding a group in society from marriage is oppressive and unacceptable. There's no justification for the prohibition of the past based on religion, race or gender. [00:03:30] Today we're embarrassed and appalled by these examples, and in every instance it was action by the state. This is not about church teachings or philosophy. It never has been. It's about the state, excluding people from the institution of marriage, because of their sex, sexual orientation or gender identity. And that's no different from the actions taken in these historical examples. Principles of justice and equality aren't served if [00:04:00] the key civil institution of marriage is reserved for heterosexuals only in the landmark Ontario decision, Justice La wrote, and I quote any alternative status that nonetheless provides for the same financial benefits as marriage in and of itself amounts to segregation. This case is about access to a deeply meaningful social institution. It is about equal participation in the activity, expression, security and integrity [00:04:30] of marriage. Any alternative to marriage, in my opinion, simply offers the insult to a formal equivalency without the promise of substantive equality. Ever since Brown versus Board of Education in 1954 the separate but equal doctrine has been seen as segregation. And contrary to achieving equality, I want to emphasise again what this bill does not do. It doesn't criminalise criminal. It doesn't legalise criminal offences. [00:05:00] In fact, it's clear the definition proposed in this amendment is a union of two people only. It doesn't force any minister or celebrant to marry a couple against their wishes. Section 29 remains in force and has been strengthened by the Select Committee amendment, and it doesn't change adoption laws. Gay couples have adopted Children for many years, but the law hasn't recognised that parenting reality. Children of same sex relationships [00:05:30] haven't been allowed to have both parents names on their birth certificate. The injustice and pain of this was made clear by an email I received, and I'm able to share it with the house, it reads. My partner and I had been together for seven years when we decided to start a family. When our daughter was born, my partner's name was on her birth certificate as her birth mother. When our daughter was 13, my partner was diagnosed with terminal cancer. We talked [00:06:00] to our solicitor and found out that the only way I could adopt our daughter was if the relationship with her mom was legally terminated. How could we possibly do that to a child who was faced with her mom dying? Instead, I applied for and was granted guardianship. When my daughter turned 18, the guardianship expired. It was only when my own parents died that it struck home with me that my daughter and I had no legal relationship despite despite me, having [00:06:30] been her parent all her life, we talked it over, and I applied to adopt her. Fortunately, all this happened before she turned 20 because I believe it might have been too late. It was the right thing to do, but still hard on her. She gets a new birth certificate and her mom legally no longer exists. This is just so ridiculous and so wrong. If your bill had been law when my partner was still alive, then we could have married and our daughter would [00:07:00] have both her parents recorded as such. Under this bill, both women could have been spouses and recorded on their daughter's birth certificate. Without this bill, that's a privilege limited to heterosexual married couples. Only in our society the meaning of marriage is universal. It's a declaration of love and commitment to a special person law that allows all people to enjoy that state is the right thing to do. Law that prohibits people from enjoying [00:07:30] that state is just wrong. Those who celebrate religious or cultural marriage are absolutely unaffected by this bill that has never been part of the state's marriage law, and it never should be. There's another similarity between this bill and treaty settlement legislation, the quality and tone of the debate within this house. I believe that's the result of our effective cross-party working group With and Kevin Hague. Conrad Rayner, [00:08:00] national spokesperson for the Campaign for Marriage Equality, was also involved, and with Cameron, Jackie, Tony, Natalie, Curt and Andrew have kept the issue alive and relevant. I'm also grateful to Megan Campbell, Sean Wallace and David Far for their support and work with MP and for helping coordinate this activity I would also like to acknowledge the leadership across the house from the prime minister who expressed his support early on, as did the leader of the Labour Party, David [00:08:30] Shearer, and we have seen leadership by John Banks, Peter Dunn, Peter and I also acknowledge the Greens, who from the outset have taken a supportive position as a party for them. It was not a conscience vote, but a manifesto commitment. There are many individuals and groups within our communities and churches who have continually addressed the facts and made it real. I particularly thank the youth wings of all political parties and student unions around the country. The messages [00:09:00] have remained positive. I'm very proud to be a member of a community that has stood up to be counted with such dignity and reason, a personal thanks to everyone who has contacted me by email through Facebook, particularly Craig Young and those in the community offering support and often just saying thanks And finally and to my darling crew, thank you for your work and sharing this journey with me. Nothing can counteract [00:09:30] the very real negative consequences of not passing this bill, but nothing could make me more proud to be a New Zealander than passing this bill. It's an honour to represent your country and the people of New Zealand. I'm proud to be a member of this 50th parliament that will continue New Zealand's proud human rights tradition. I thank my colleagues for simply doing what is fair just and right. [00:10:00] Yeah, Order, Order! The question is the motion be agreed to before I call the next speaker? I am aware that a number [00:10:30] of speakers have arranged to have split calls. I just ask that that be revealed to the speaker as the call is taken. Initially, the honourable Morris Williamson speaker, I, too, will be taking a split call with my colleague Jamie Lee Ross as sort of the young and the vibrant versus the old and the boring. And, Sir, And you? Yeah, and and members of the house will be forced to choose which one is which. Sir, Sir, I want to first of all, congratulate Lesa Wall for this bill. And I wanna say, sir, that the good news about [00:11:00] the years in this Parliament is you learn to deflect all of the dreadful er sort of fire and brimstone accusations that are going to happen. Sir, I've had a reverend in my local electorate Court. The gay onslaught will start the day after this bill is passed. And so we are really struggling to know what the gay onslaught will look like. We don't know if it'll come down the Paara highway as a series of troops or whether it will be a gas that flows in over the electorate and locks us all in [00:11:30] I. I also sir, had a Catholic priest tell me that I was supporting an unnatural act. I found that quite interesting coming from someone who's taken an oath of celibacy for his whole life. I always have celibacy, OK, we'll go with celibacy. OK, I, I haven't done it, so I don't know what it's about. I also had a letter telling me I would burn in the fires of hell for eternity. And that was a bad mistake because I've got a degree in physics. I use the thermodynamic laws of, [00:12:00] uh, of physics. I put in my body weight and my, uh, humidity and so on. I assumed the furnace to be at 5000 degrees and I will last for just on 2. 1 seconds. It's hardly eternity. What do you think? And some more disgusting claims about what adoption would be. Well, sir, I've got three fantastic adopted kids. I know how good adoption is, and I found some of it just disgraceful. I found some of the bullying tactics really evil. And, sir, I gave up being scared of bullies when I was at primary school. However, a huge amount of the opposition [00:12:30] was from moderates from people who were concerned who were seriously worried what this might do to the fabric of our society. I respect their concern. I respect their worry. They were worried about what it might do to their families and so on. Let me repeat to them. Now, sir, all we are doing with this bill is allowing two people who love each other to have that love recognised by way of marriage. That is all we are doing. We are not declaring [00:13:00] nuclear war on a foreign state. We are not bringing a virus in that could wipe out our agriculture sector forever. We are allowing two people who love each other to have that recognised. And I can't see what's wrong with that for love nor money, sir, I just cannot. I cannot understand why someone would be opposed. I understand why people don't like what it is that others do. That's fine. We're all in that category. But I give a promise to those people who are opposed to this bill. Right now, I give you a watertight guaranteed [00:13:30] promise. The sun will still rise tomorrow. Your teenage daughter will still argue back with you as if she knows everything. Your mortgage will not grow. You will not have skin diseases or rashes or toads in your bed, sir, The world will just carry on. So don't make this into a big deal. This is fantastic for the people it affects. But for the rest of us, life will go on. And finally, can I say, sir? One of the messages I had was that this bill [00:14:00] was the cause of our drought. This bill was the cause of our drought. Well, if any of you follow my Twitter account, you will see that in the Packera electorate. This morning it was pouring with rain. We have the most enormous big gay rainbow across my electorate. It has to be a sign, sir. It has to be a sign. If you're a believer, it's certainly a sign. And can I finish for all those who are concerned about this with a quote from the [00:14:30] Bible? It's Deuteronomy. I thought Deuteronomy was a cat out of cats. But never mind. It's Deuteronomy. Chapter one, Verse 29 BY not afraid. Jamie Lee Ross. Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague Maurice Williamson for allowing me to share his time. Uh, with me, Mr Speaker. Tonight I'm voting for love, [00:15:00] for equality, opportunity and most of all, I'm voting for freedom. I'm voting tonight to give all New Zealanders the same opportunity that I had when I married my wife. The freedom to marry the person I love. A very simple concept, but one that's been denied to so many people for so long. We're all fortunate that we sit in this House of Representatives and a democracy that values individual freedoms and individual rights. A democracy [00:15:30] that values New Zealanders, having the ability to determine for themselves what they do with their own life. Many arguments can be made both for and against same sex marriage. But when I was considering how I should vote on this issue. The question was never Why should same sex couples be allowed to marry? The question was always. Why on earth shouldn't they be allowed to marry? And it I can't explain, Mr Speaker, I can't explain why two [00:16:00] people of the same sex shouldn't be allowed to marry because it just seems to me that we could deny two people the right to marry simply because they love someone that's of the same gender. I've yet to hear anyone put a forward a rational and a principle reason why it's necessary to deny someone the right to marry two people simply because of their sexual orientation. It's [00:16:30] wrong, Mr Speaker, recently on a local botany Facebook website, a constituent made the wise observation. Marriage is about love. Love between two men or two women is equal to the love of a man and a woman, and therefore they should have equal rights. And that's what it all boils down to. No one needs to be dismayed or disappointed because two loving people might soon be able to get married. No one needs [00:17:00] to feel threatened or saddened because something that's different and they're not used to might take place around them. The reality is that unless you're in a same sex relationship and considering getting married, you're not affected by this bill in any way at all. Nobody gets hurt when gay couples say they're married. But gay couples that do want to get married are harmed when they're arbitrarily stopped from doing so by the state [00:17:30] from expressing their love in the way that they want to. Mr Speaker, this also isn't an issue that should be a referendum issue. I don't fear a referendum in any way. I simply don't believe it's right to determine an issue that only affects minorities by way of referendum. If that was the case, I doubt New Zealand would have given women the vote the right to vote when this country did. Nor would this country have legalised abortion when it did. Nor would this [00:18:00] country have decriminalised sex between two consenting males. When it did. Minority rights issues are not referendum issues. Mr. Speaker, I want to briefly talk also about the question of Children because it's a common theme that some opponents have been raising. The prevailing wisdom seems to be that every child must have a mother and a father. I know it's a touchy subject, Uh, but there's one someone who actually grew [00:18:30] up without a mother and without a father. I think I'm somewhat qualified to speak on the issue. A child does need both male and female influences in their life, but those influences don't necessarily have to come from their biological parents. What's most important is that a child is raised in a loving and caring environment. What's most important is that the people that are raising that child give them a home [00:19:00] that's safe. That's warm, educating and nurturing. If that environment just so happens to be a same sex marriage, then that child is just as fortunate as every other loved for and cared for. Child. Mr. Speaker, the time for this legislation has come. The author of the Bill Lewis Wall, the Select Committee, I believe, have arrived at a sensible point, a sensible point where marriage equality will soon be extended to all New Zealanders [00:19:30] in a way that in no way impacts on the rights and freedoms of anyone else. Tonight, Parliament is doing absolutely the right thing, and I wholeheartedly commend this bill to the house. I call on Grant Robertson. Thank you, Mr Speaker. In 1977 Harvey Milk was elected as the first openly [00:20:00] gay city councillor in the United States. It was a landmark moment in the representation of minorities in politics. Tragically, Harvey Milk was assassinated by a fellow councillor. Just 11 months later, he was a strong advocate for the rights of gay people, but also for all minorities. And before his death, he spoke of the importance of him being elected because it gave hope to young gay people that there was a better tomorrow for them compared to the discrimination [00:20:30] and bullying that they were getting in their home towns. He noted that this hope wasn't just important. If you were gay, it was important if you were poor or black or disabled or old, as he put it. Quote, I know that you cannot live on hope alone, But without it, life is not worth living, and you and you and you you got to give them hope. And he told the story of the young gay man from Altoona, [00:21:00] Pennsylvania, who rang him after he was elected simply to say thanks for what he was doing. Well, Mr Speaker, in New Zealand in 1986 there was a 14 year old young man sitting in Dunedin who read the newspaper about the law to decriminalise homosexuality. And he cut out of the newspaper the names of those who voted for and those who voted against the homosexual law reform bill. And that gave him me hope that maybe his [00:21:30] life would be all right. There were 49 people in favour of the law that day to Annette King, Phil Goff, Trevor Mallard and Peter Dunn, who are still here today. Thank you for giving me that hope. Interestingly, there were 44 votes against that day as well. The good news is that today there are a lot more MP S in Parliament than they were back then. And I want to thank MP S from all the parties who are voting in support of this legislation [00:22:00] today. This is a true M MP conscience vote. It has made for some unlikely political bedfellows. Note the word political in there. I want to pay. I want to pay tribute to To and Jamie Lee Ross in particular. It's quite likely That is the only time I would ever say that sentence. So I'll say it again. I want to particularly pay tribute to To Hire and Jamie Lee Ross in particular, and all members of the cross party working group. All members from around this house who [00:22:30] are supporting this bill are doing the right thing. I also want to pay tribute to the campaign for marriage, equality, legalised love and the thousands of others who have got us to this point today, as it was then, in 1986 with homosexual law reform and again with in 2003 with civil unions. It is a labour MP that is moving this important social change. And today I can graduate Lesa. There is no doubt that we can all see how it is that Lesa made it to the top on the sporting field. Straight up the guts [00:23:00] determination. One of the many, many emails that MP S got in the early stages of this bill was from a person bemoaning what would happen if the bill passed. After several paragraphs, he reached his triumphant point and who will teach the Children about rugby and netball? I think we might have that one covered Lou, eh, Mr Speaker, I am proud that this bill has been promoted by a labour MP and supported by the vast majority of our caucus because fundamentally, it's about [00:23:30] labour values, fairness, justice and community. At its heart. This bill is about family and strengthening families. There are few parents who don't think about their Children's weddings. They are social occasions that mark a change in the relationship of parents and their Children. They can make a dent in the bank balance, but they are pivotal moments. The importance of this bill to strengthening families was beautifully articulated in the submission made by Angus Hodgson to the select committee, and I'll quote him briefly. [00:24:00] This bill means that my parents can support all four of their sons if we marry the person we love and who loves us not three out of four, my parents have four sons. They love us equally. Likewise, this house should demonstrate an equal love for its public, too. Angus went on. My mother once told me that she doesn't have any criteria for the people her sons might fall in love with. She would welcome any person into her home if they love her son, too. That [00:24:30] was an incredibly powerful message for me to receive. So, Mr Speaker, when this bill passes, it will be a victory for families. Mr. Speaker, I want to briefly mention those people who brought us civil unions. They were an important step towards fairness and equality. They gave recognition to relationships, an alternative to the institution of marriage and equal rights under almost every law. I'm proud to have been part of that campaign and I salute the hard work that went into it. I want to particularly recognise lean D David Benson, [00:25:00] Pope Tim Barnett and Catherine Rich and others for their their work in that bill. Today we take further steps towards equality and that value of equality is a fundamental value for me and for the Labour Party. We believe that we are all born equal and that is our job to ensure that equality exists in this world. It is the same value of equality that underlies this bill that also motivates me and labour to fight every day for the 270,000 New Zealand Children who live [00:25:30] in poverty. It's the same value that says that allowing someone to be paid $13. 75 an hour to look after our grandparents is morally wrong. It is the same value that says that every person, no matter who they are or where they were born, has a right to an education that will allow them to achieve their potential equality. A fair go for everyone is at the heart of labour values and the heart of this bill. This bill is also about inclusion. Quite simply, Mr Speaker, [00:26:00] we will not succeed as a country or society. If we continually find reasons to exclude people, the only place that takes us is division and hatred. Why on earth would we want to stop a couple who love each other who want to make a commitment to one another from doing that? Why would we want to exclude some people from a cherished social institution? As David said in his moving and eloquent submission to the select committee, This is an issue for people [00:26:30] of all ethnic backgrounds. This is what he said, speaking as an Asian New Zealander. It might be easy to think that in this debate, Europeans are the only ones who want marriage equality and Asians and Pacific Islanders don't. I just can't accept that. I know it's not true and it goes against our history and the values we are proud of as New Zealanders, David went on. There are many Asian New Zealanders right now who feel trapped because of issues with their culture, religion, upbringing or family circumstances [00:27:00] along with their sexual orientation. It can be an incredibly difficult situation to be in, but this parliament can help change that. Tonight we take further steps steps towards the inclusive society that New Zealand can and should be. Mr Speaker, this legislation makes us a better country. Many supporters of the bill have stressed that in the end this is Bill is about love and that's not a topic that politicians get to talk about very often. Former Labour Prime Minister Norman used [00:27:30] to say that New Zealanders wanted a job, a place to live, someone to love and something to hope for. Well, we can't guarantee you someone to love, but I think we're putting the right incentives in place. Mr Speaker, as we have seen with previous advances in the recognition of the rights of New Zealanders. There have been shrieks and howls about how society will end when women got the vote when homosexuality was decriminalised. And in the end, as Morris Williamson has eloquently told us, the sky has [00:28:00] not fallen in. I respect the right of people to hold different views on this legislation. People with religious beliefs have continued to have the freedom to exercise those that should continue and it will. Nothing about this legislative decision would affect anyone else's marriage. Husbands will still call their wives their wife and vice versa. And I'll let you all in on a secret. We've all been calling our partners husbands for years. Normally, it's when I'm being told off. Mr Speaker, [00:28:30] I want to pay tribute to the thousands of New Zealanders who have worked to get support for this bill. It has energised and politicised many people. At an event in Auckland last weekend, a straight pakeha woman in her thirties said she made her first ever submission to parliament in favour of this bill. Tonight is a victory for those people, their friends and their families. But for all the victories that there are to celebrate when this bill passes the victory for families, for Fairness, for equality, for inclusion, for commitment and for love. [00:29:00] There is, to my mind, a greater win if there is a 14 year old young man in Dunedin who's watching this like I did 27 years ago, and he's wondering how he'll cope with being a bit different from his mates. And he's gonna struggle a bit over the next few years. Today goes some way to fulfilling Harvey Milk's plea. This bill is not going to solve all problems. It's not gonna prevent him from being discriminated against. It's not going to prevent him from getting hurt. But it will do something of huge value [00:29:30] because what we will do in this house tonight is that we will give him some hope. Because Mr Speaker, Tonight, hope has one. No, it's not order. Right? Honourable Winston Peters. Uh, Mr Speaker, New Zealand first [00:30:00] believes in the use of a public referendum, and we have for a long time in 9 97 some would recall that we put a referendum to New Zealand voters on a savings regime similar to Australia or Singapore. Sadly, it was voted down 16 years later, we are broke and in the clutches of foreign banks and foreign money. We could have just rammed a bill through Parliament, but we went and took it to the people. [00:30:30] And those are our bona fides on the issue of a referendum. We spent the better year debating this wall's bill, and, sadly, the public are not. Not much the wiser for it. In fact, there's hardly been a debate. What we've heard is a small yet vocal minority telling the rest of New Zealanders that there is a law change that everyone wants, and anyone who disagrees has got to be a bigot. Then, on the other side [00:31:00] of the so-called debate, we've got those who would like to see the state police and the state police themselves police morality in the bedroom. The truth is that most New Zealanders sit somewhere in the middle. That might be tawdry and uncomfortable, but it's the way our society works. Some support, the change. Others do not. But their reasons for supporting or opposing it are never as sensationalist or extreme [00:31:30] as some on either side would have us believe. No one really knows what side the majority of the public opinion sits on some claim, as M and her supporters have, that there is a huge groundswell for change. Well, is that true? And if so, how do we know? As far as we're aware, the issue never came up at any of the meetings that we held in the three years out from the last election. Nobody lobbied us. [00:32:00] No journalist called to us where we sat on the issue. There was no word spoken on the campaign trail about same sex marriage whatsoever. Now that's not the issue, and Miss Wall has every right to present and draught a bill and present it to this house. But a lot of the bile in this issue would not be present. Had the process been different, it came upon us the spill out of the blue, the manner [00:32:30] of this bill's emergence, the process to which it got and by which it got before Parliament needs to be publicised. It is why many fair minded Kiwis feel confused that confused because MM Wall and his supporters have not told them how it happened. Why didn't they upfront go to the last election on the campaign? Say we will introduce [00:33:00] same sex marriage. Instead of using some woolly language like and I quote, we will review relationship and property law unquote who up in the gallery thinks that that's what they wanted. The only explanation has to be that they were afraid. They were afraid that their party supporters might not like it and we can make all the pretentious, glorious statements tonight. But in the end, it's what the people think. [00:33:30] In fact, Ms Wall, sad to say, wasn't even upfront with her own party. The normal process in the Labour Party is for members. I'm coming on with the facts. Here is for members' bills to be taken to the Labour's whip's office for the Labour whip to lodge after it is approved by the Labour Caucus. The bill, that's the process every party follows and it has to be followed. It has to be followed because the system will not operate [00:34:00] without it. But Miss Wall didn't it is a fact make all the statements they like now. But the first Labour leader's office knew was seeing it on the list of bills lodged and that's a fact. So tell us, why wasn't the Labour whip off the caucus told first before the bill was lodged. I am getting it from the best of authority that that's what happened from [00:34:30] Yeah, after the event. That's true. After the event, Mr Speaker. Order. Order. Yes. So? So you were in the whip's office? No, you weren't. That's the fact. No, but my my evidence is that of somebody who was and suggests that the Labour Party was hijacked on this issue. Miss Wall, what do the people [00:35:00] of Mana think? What are the people out there in South Auckland at? I think well out of silence now. But this is about democracy and representation. Oh, and that is why so many Labour supporters are telling us they support our referendum stance because they feel they've never been asked that somehow they've been left out even more think that [00:35:30] somehow they have been cheated. This is supposed to be a democracy. This is supposed to be a place where the people's voice matters. This is supposed to be a parliament where one will be proud to face up to their caucus and say, I think this bill should come before Parliament. I know. No, no, I'm sorry. That is what they're saying now because they couldn't say anything else in the same ways that many national members over there who are going to vote for this bill know full [00:36:00] well that the so-called protection for religious dissidents where they are Celis or other or else wise is not in this legislation that if a church so deems someone's objection to be wrong, then that person could be punished. That's all they ask for. Is that too much for that to happen? That's why we call this house the House of Representatives, representing not ourselves but the people. And here we are as [00:36:30] a parliament about to circumvent any expression of public opinion yet again. Why do they think that if the public is asked, they might lose? I don't know. But I am prepared to trust the public. I don't wish to hear from polls. I want to know what the public exactly think on Campbell live tonight. I think the poll that they had as strange as it was, and I don't think it is remotely scientific it had 78% No, 22% [00:37:00] Yes, what say they're wrong by 20%? The question is what do the public think? And why are there so many people in this parliament prepared when it suits them to circumvent the public's will when all the violent venom of this issue could not have been in Parliament? Had we asked New Zealanders Well, what do you think? Shortly we go to ANZAC Day. It's about democracy, and it's about an inclusive [00:37:30] democracy that they were fighting, not just one vote every three years. And that's my point. We're prepared to respect as a party in New Zealand first, that we have many divergent party views within the party. We respect that. That is why we are prepared to all compromise and say, as one group, well, let's ask New Zealanders for after all, they should be the final arbiter. This is a rule not for us. It is a law for them. [00:38:00] We object to the people being taken for granted. We object to the view that we are here and we have temporary hold of the reins. And what Joe public what Joe public thinks is of no import whatsoever for those who wish to ignore this message. Then let me give this clear warning. There is a day of reckoning coming electorally The men of this vote tonight laugh now and cry later. The man of this vote tonight is a game shifter and [00:38:30] it'll be reflected in the next election results. There are some issues that dissipate, and there are some issues that stay around a long time all around New Zealand Tonight, in the next few days, people will be saying, Well, if that's the way they think that our view does not matter, then I will never, ever vote for them again. And if one looks at the huge social and economic issues this country presently faces and the desperate need for better solutions to them than some in the South would have seriously sacrificed their colleagues [00:39:00] and their party for a narrow, undemocratic, worthy or unworthy I don't know expression. And when the political wilderness years come, don't say you weren't warned. Order. But, uh, [00:39:30] I call the honourable speaker. Thank you. Uh, I will be splitting my call with, uh, the honourable Nicky Kay. Um, I did have a speech prepared, Um, but that, uh, speech shot it to bits. Here's the bona fides. Mr. Speaker, on the New Zealand first Referendum of 19 nineties. The National Party said no to a bill. That's why we went to [00:40:00] a referendum. And when we went to a referendum, 82% of the country said No Winston, we don't believe, uh in you anymore. That's what that's what it said. It never went through caucus. It never went through caucus. And that speech that I heard tonight, Mr Speaker, was the biggest shyer speech I've ever heard. Size the beat, Mr Speaker. [00:40:30] Yeah, I have a point of order from the right. Honourable Winston Peters. Mr. Speaker, you heard what the member said. He must have been looking in a mirror, but he must apologise. That's not a point of order. The Honourable is parliamentary. Sorry. Are you saying that the expression he used is parliamentary? Certainly not ruling it out as un parliamentary. The honourable speaker. Thank you. [00:41:00] Thank you, Mr Speaker. So it's OK for New Zealand first to have bills in the ballot. That's the democracy. But when Louisa Wall puts one in the door in the ballot Oh, that it's that's got to go to a referendum. How the hell is any country in the world supposed to operate on a system like that. Who decides whether it should be a referendum or not? Him? I hope not, Mr Speaker. I hope not, Mr Speaker. Because we'd [00:41:30] still be in the 18 eighties, Mr. Speaker, I feel sad that I was I feel sad that I was a member. And even as deputy leader of that man, Mr Speaker, I used to look up to him. But I tell you what, he that speech tonight is nothing more than pandering to the 10% on either side of this argument, Mr Speaker. Nothing more pandering to those racist redneck people that just love [00:42:00] to get on the email, Mr Speaker. And I wanna say I wanna say that I have been appalled with some of the behaviour of those for the bill and against the bill because I, for one, do not think that those that are against the bill are homophobic just because they're voting against it, it's their right to vote against it. And I will back my colleagues who vote against it all the way, Mr [00:42:30] Speaker, and I just I just don't agree with them and, um and they're gonna lose tonight. But however, um to quickly run through what I was gonna say. It's it's time the sky didn't and won't fall in. How does it affect me or anyone else in this house in this country? It doesn't. It just doesn't think about it for a minute. If if the If the institution of marriage was so [00:43:00] sacrosanct, then why the hell are so many people getting a divorce? And I don't say that in a facetious manner, Mr Speaker. If the if it if it does belong to the church as I've been told by so many people on the email, then why do we have legislation outlining who can and who can't? If there was no legislation, I would back the church 100%. But it's not theirs. It actually belongs to the government. It [00:43:30] actually belongs to this parliament. It is a creature now of Parliament. It's not a creature anymore of the either the Bible or the church. Mr. Mr Speaker. Lastly, I wanna say it's actually about the the equality of opportunity. All we are doing, we're not We're not forcing anybody to do anything. No way, shape or form. But what we are doing, Mr Speaker is offering people the opportunity [00:44:00] of equality. Now, they either take it or they don't. That's up to them. It's not up to me. Not up to any one of us. Uh, in this house, sir, I want to thank uh, my cousin, uh, Kath, uh, who unfortunately died some months ago. Uh, she would have been here, uh, yelling from the rooftops. And I seriously mean, she would have been yelling from the rooftops because that's what she was like. Um I, I hope she is finally proud of her cousin. [00:44:30] Um and I'm sure she was in other ways. Finally, Mr Speaker, A message to all LGBTI and I finally got that out. Um, my message to you all is welcome to the mainstream. Do well. Kilda, hold the honourable Nicky Kay. Mr. Speaker, [00:45:00] tonight I hope that we pass this bill so that same sex couples can finally marry in New Zealand. It is time that we pass this bill. It has been nearly 30 years since we passed the Homosexual Law Reform Act. Three decades later, 20,000 submissions 100 and 21 MP S tonight have the power to finally vote to give all [00:45:30] New Zealanders the freedom to marry the person they love. This change will be hugely positive for our country. There are so many stories that we have heard over the last six months of people desperate to marry of young people taking their lives because they have never been accepted of people in relationships for 30 years, desperate to have that properly recognised in law. This bill [00:46:00] is not just about equality and freedom for people to choose who they who they want to spend the rest of their life with. It's also fundamentally about human dignity, real acceptance and good old fashioned love for people who are currently married. We have already heard nothing will change. Weddings will still happen. They will still be expensive. There will still be honeymoons, cakes and stag dos dresses and rings and the odd [00:46:30] drunk uncle. But marriage is more than that. It is a huge commitment, and it's something so many young people want. Passing this bill actually means that young gay and lesbian New Zealanders can have the same dream that other young New Zealanders have. I'm proud to be the MP for Auckland Central. I represent Grey Rock, Rocky Bay a huge gay and lesbian community. But you know what you may think that's why I'm [00:47:00] voting for this bill. But actually I support this bill because it's the right thing to do. I support this bill because it's absolutely the right thing for our country. I support those MP, S and conservative electorates who have stood up and are voting for this bill because they also think it is the right thing for our country. I want to acknowledge Chris Ville and Paul Hutchison. They have shown us in this debate the true power of conscience. [00:47:30] When Paul said I cannot construct a strong enough intellectual, moral health or spiritual argument against it, he struck a chord with so many New Zealanders because he showed us openness and he showed us compassion for people. Our Parliament can be very proud that this vote is actually less about political divides, but more about religious and generational divides. [00:48:00] We have a lot to be proud of in our country. We must acknowledge the freedoms that we have are not the same freedoms that other countries have. As Melissa has said, there are 55 countries in the Commonwealth that still criminalise homosexuality that must change the world will be watching New Zealand tonight. Let us vote to show them that our country values freedom for all of our people. [00:48:30] Lusa Thank you for your commitment to the cause. You have worked across party lines. You have personally helped ensure that this debate has been more constructive and more positive in the past. Thank you to you, Kevin as well, for your contribution thank you to To and Jamie Lee Ross as well. I want to acknowledge the other liberal nets who have walked before me for their contribution. Catherine, Rich and Marilyn. We thank you as [00:49:00] well. It's lovely to see you here tonight. Megan Campbell, Sean Wallace. Your tireless efforts will not be forgotten. Georgina and Tim, I acknowledge you as well here tonight. This bill is about strengthening families. The difference to people's lives will be real and positive. This is about the daughter who asked her mother yesterday, Can I finally be the flower girl at Auntie Emma's wedding? The [00:49:30] answer is yes. This is about the young man who had not yet come out to his friends having the courage to do so. This is about the couple who have been together for 30 years finally getting the chance to say I do. This is about a large group of New Zealanders holding their head a little higher down the street colleagues. It is time that we pass this bill. It is the right thing to do. [00:50:00] Please vote for freedom. Please vote for this bill. Order! Order! Kevin Hague! Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is time. In one of the many messages that I've received on this bill, one [00:50:30] man said, My partner and I have been together for 30 years. It would be great to celebrate our anniversary with a wedding. I mentioned in the first reading that I've been together with my partner, Ian, who said tonight with my son Thomas, for 28 years now nearly 29. And I couldn't help but reflect on our journey. During that time when we got together, our relationship was against the law. The message sent by the law [00:51:00] could not have been clearer. We were outsiders. We did not belong. The debate over Fran Wild's bill was extremely toxic. A lot of people said a lot of very unpleasant things about us and of course, predicted that the bill would spell the end of New Zealand society. I will be eternally grateful to Fran and her colleagues to George Gere for standing up for what was right. I remember travelling to Auckland's North [00:51:30] Shore to protest against one of our opponents, Pastor Richard Flynn, who called publicly for homosexuals like me to be put to death. Over the years, I've campaigned hard for the right of our communities, not to be outsiders anymore, to assume a full place in New Zealand society with every new reform. The same group uses the same strategy, raising fears [00:52:00] of terrible consequences which always fail to materialise. There would be few New Zealanders today who would support decriminalising sex between men. The cost of being outsiders is enormous. The stigma associated with our inferior status is associated with substantially higher rates of suicide, depression, HIV, risk violence and other risks [00:52:30] to our health and well-being, one submitter Vinny wrote. If there was greater acceptance when I grew up, I would not have tried to kill myself. I potentially would not have missed out on years of a quality relationship with my family. I would not have lost 95% of my friends when I told them I was gay. Another person, Robert said, I have. I have lived my life partly in private until the last decade or so [00:53:00] when acceptance of gay people in our beautiful New Zealand has increased. I have no doubt that the bill will be passed, and I'm pleased for it to be happening in my lifetime. While I am not, in my younger years it will still allow me and my partner to marry and have equal rights. I have longed for this for a very, very long time. My only sadness is that both of my parents have now passed, and it would have been such a huge joy [00:53:30] to have them at my wedding. Opponents of this bill have been talking about two conflicting ideas of what marriage is about. The idea they have is the conjugal model in which the point of marriage is to enable procreation. They say that we supporters have a partnership model in which marriage is about celebrating and reinforcing the love two people have for each other. They are right. [00:54:00] That is what we believe. Sure, Children are important for some marriages, but more than anything else. Marriage is about affirming, reinforcing and celebrating the love that two people have for each other. It's also about joining two families together and recognising the value of that commitment to our whole society, Mr Speaker. That's why this bill is about so much more [00:54:30] than achieving equality under the law, a basic human right that has been denied us until this day. It is about saying these lives matter. Our society is big enough for us all. With this bill, our parliament stretches out its arms to my communities and says, Our society is big enough for you, too. You belong unequivocally [00:55:00] and without having to compromise who you are. When the debate started, I thought all of the people like Richard Flynn, had thankfully gone. The early comments from opponents were refreshingly free of fire and brimstone. There is no doubt that New Zealand has grown up over the past 27 years as we have become a more modern, vibrant and pluralistic society. But as the debate has worn on, we have seen [00:55:30] reemergence of a hard core whose opposition to this bill has lost its veneer of reasonableness. Their problem with this bill is that they believe that we gay and lesbian people are morally inferior. They don't want to include us as full participants in New Zealand society. They recognise correctly what full legal equality, what this signal means and they don't like it. That's why [00:56:00] we have seen people with placards declaring that gay people are mentally ill and less than human. That's why we have seen Family first's campaign, firstly of fear and misinformation and latterly of stand over tactics and blackmail. That's why we have seen Catholic action just like Richard Flynn writing to all MP S and telling us that homosexuals are worthy [00:56:30] of death and then describing in great detail the eternal agony we should expect to experience in hell. They have tried to attract more people to their cause by scaring people with imaginary consequences. People will marry their pets. Ministers will be thrown in prison. People won't be allowed to call each other husband and wife anymore, just like every time before, these fears will not be realised. [00:57:00] The consequences of this bill will be that same sex couples will marry transsexual people will no longer have to divorce, prejudice and violence will be undermined the world will be a better place for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender New Zealanders. And absolutely no one at all will be any worse off. As Brian Donnelly said, a great New Zealand first member, your own [00:57:30] candle will burn no dimmer if you help to light ours. That's what has happened in every country, now 12, that has legalised same sex marriage before us. Here are some words from Alicia, another young New Zealander. Imagine you are me for a second or any other queer teenager in New Zealand, and maybe you're a bit younger, 15 or so just starting to come to grips with who you are. All around you, your family and religious community. Perhaps even [00:58:00] your friends are buzzing with talk about a bill which affects you more than you dare to let on. What they say makes it clear that if they knew who you were, what you really are, they would not accept you. There is a reason so many of us have considered suicide an acceptable way out at some point, and this is it, she she then says. What your support of this bill has meant is immeasurable. I watched the first reading live, [00:58:30] and I was in tears by the end of it. For me, your support was overwhelming confirmation that I am no less of a person in the eyes of those who lead our country because of my sexuality, Regardless of what my parents or my church want to say about it, your support told me and many teenagers like me that no matter what those around us say, we will be equal under the law, [00:59:00] Mr. Speaker, history is a funny thing. When all those imaginary risks failed to materialise, they will be forgotten entirely. And when that fog recedes, history will also forget all of the quibbles, like saying there's a better way to achieve the same thing that allows some MP S to vote against this bill while still saying they support fair and equal treatment. There is no longer any room for nuance or middle ground. [00:59:30] Instead, what history will record is whether you voted for inclusiveness, equality under the law and pluralism or against them. What it will record is whether you chose to stand with Vinnie, Robert and Alicia, or instead chose to stand with Catholic action with extremism, threats and blackmail Please be brave tonight so that you can be proud of your vote later tonight. Please [01:00:00] stand with me. Stand with us. Stand with justice, fairness and love. Hold on at, uh I call the Honourable Mary Ann Street. Thank you. Uh, Mr [01:00:30] Speaker, I love my job, but every now and then it really rocks. And this is one of those moments every now and then that we have in this house when I know in my very being, that I'm doing something good. Something right? Something life changing. Tonight is one of those moments. I, too, would like to acknowledge the former MP S who are in the house tonight. Marilyn Waring, Catherine Rich, Georgina Baer [01:01:00] and Tim Barnett, each of whom, in their time in this house, has supported the values that this bill represents. It is good to have you here, all of you, on this occasion. And I pay a tribute to you in my inaugural speech to Parliament in 2005. Mr. Speaker, I railed against our tendency as a nation to drive some people to the margins of our society and then despise them for being there. [01:01:30] I talked to the lazy notion of political correctness and how that label was used dripping with sarcasm to denigrate and destroy anything that was inclusive, compassionate, tolerant or forward looking. Tonight I am here to help include the marginalised, equalise the law for the outlaws and put one more nail in the coffin of legal discrimination [01:02:00] in New Zealand. I want to thank my colleague Louisa Wall for the opportunity to do this. I pay tribute to her for her courage, her strength and her leadership. Throughout this issue, she has been supported by a large team of enthusiastic supporters and helpers, both inside and outside of this house, and I thank them all as well. From the bottom of my heart, I come at this issue from a simple starting point. There are no [01:02:30] grounds in this country on which discrimination under the law should occur on the basis of one's sexual orientation or gender identity. We all sit somewhere on the sexuality continuum, some closer to one end than the other, some in the middle, still others at one point at one time in their lives and at quite another point. At other times in their lives. I have seen examples of all of these up close and personal. [01:03:00] The injustice of discriminating before the law against someone because of who they are, not because of what they do, but of who they are intrinsically is wrong and we are past it in 2013. Those famous words of Shylock in the Merchant of Venice come to mind hath not a Jew. Eyes hath not a Jew. Hands, organs, dimensions, senses, [01:03:30] affections, passions fed with the same food hurt with the same weapons subject to the same diseases healed by the same means warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer as a Christian is if you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die? [01:04:00] And I would add. And if we are not equal before the law, are we not lesser beings? So I come at the issue of marriage equality simply on the basis of equality before the law. I'm gay, but I don't wish to get married. I've never wanted to get married. It doesn't mean that I don't cherish the relationship I have with as much as any married person. But I don't want [01:04:30] not to be able to marry because the law discriminates against me. That is the point for me. This position has been driven home for me by working closely for years with a group of young people in Nelson called Q Youth. This is an alliance of straight, gay and transgender young people and adults who began at college many years ago to build a safe and supportive environment for young people who were questioning or wrestling with [01:05:00] their sexuality. It includes adults who are parents, teachers, counsellors, professional people and me who all want the same thing for these young people to grow up in safety, free from discrimination, free from bullying, free from violence and unsafe practises, so that they can be who they truly are. I want to acknowledge, in particular Stewart, who was a mentor to many [01:05:30] of these people and tabby bes and Joseph had, who are in the gallery tonight who are who have offered much in the way of leadership, along with numerous other wonderful, clever and brave Nelson young people. Through that work, I met many questioning young Nelson people who had all suffered to a greater or lesser degree because of being made to feel like an outcast and outlaw. Some had cut themselves. [01:06:00] Some had punished themselves with drug and alcohol abuse. Some had become mentally unwell. Some had attempted suicide. Some were hugely supported by their parents. They were the lucky ones. Some were rejected by their parents. They were not so lucky. Equality before the law is the start. If there is a benign [01:06:30] legislative regime, there will be over time, different behaviour and greater acceptance. Laws only alter behaviour, not attitudes. But attitudes come eventually when people see that the sky hasn't fallen and their own rights are not diminished by extending them to others. But when one is growing up, like these young people in Nelson, from whom I've learned so much, one can sense discrimination [01:07:00] and a lack of acceptance. At 500 paces, it sits on your shoulder like a vulture waiting for you to fall and to be picked to death little by little stroke by stroke, young people are diminished and reduced unless they can find a safe place to be. So this law isn't really about me as a lesbian woman at all. It is about creating a just and tolerant society, which [01:07:30] is safe for our young people to grow up in. For those who have a different world view from mine, can I simply say that I would stick up for your rights to equality before the law as well? Finally, I return to my inaugural speech in this house. At the end of it, I referred to my daughter and said that I hoped that whenever the time came for me to leave this place, that I would leave our society improved [01:08:00] in some measure. For her sake, she was born to two mothers and two fathers she has never lacked for love, support, guidance and care. In fact, it's possible she's had twice as much of it than most Children in a two parent family. She has been and remains a great joy to all of us. She deserves a world where her family is as accepted as anyone [01:08:30] else's. She said. To me, of course, that she was proofing my speech tonight, that her world would have been very different growing up if there had been social acceptance around our family. She doesn't regret it for herself, but she does wish it for other people. She's a good girl. Our actions here must always be about the future. We leave this world to others, [01:09:00] especially our young people. Let's make it a better, fairer, kinder place than we found it. Let's pass this bill. Fair enough. Uh, the Honourable John [01:09:30] Banks. Mr. Speaker, I will split this call with tile of the Maori Party. Mr. Speaker, the privilege we have to be in this house is counterbalanced by the need to stand up and be counted. And I'm one of a handful of members that was here in the very early days of these debates. After [01:10:00] three decades and 10 parliaments, I've had time to reflect to reflect on what I said and to reflect on what I did. If I knew then what I have since learned, I would have acted differently. I see this as a debate more about human rights predicated on the basis that we are all entitled to live our lives to the fullest extent of [01:10:30] human happiness while respecting the rights and beliefs of others. I believe all New Zealanders should be free to pursue their own happiness. Principles of freedom and choice go to the heart of this particular issue. Freedom gives each individual the right to determine for themselves their happiness for their own lives. I want my political career [01:11:00] and public service to recognise the value and potential of every New Zealander. My gay friends know that my vote is not needed to pass this bill, but they tell me that my support is important to them. I received a text from a friend who had heard that this bill had my support. The text said, Thanks, Banksy. This bill won't have any impact on your marriage, [01:11:30] but it will mean a great deal to me and my relationship. I think that sums up the argument very well. I know many people are opponents with strong views on this issue. I respect that. I hope my comments tonight give an insight for my friends who don't support this bill and can't understand why I have charter this course. I respect [01:12:00] their right to hold their views and uphold their right to practise their faith. In turn, I expect those people to let me hold my views and practise my own faith. When making this decision, I had to ask myself, Will New Zealanders have more freedoms as a result of this bill? Yes. Will freedom of religion be preserved? Yes. [01:12:30] Will anyone's freedoms be taken away by this bill? No. Would the god that I believe in? Think any less of me for voting for this bill? No. That's why I support this legislation. You, Mr Speaker, [01:13:00] and I thank my treaty partner banks for allowing me to have this spot in the final five minutes. Mr. Speaker, in case there's any doubt we're talking about the marriage definition of marriage amendment bill. And this is not the first time that Maori have encountered controversy around the concept of marriage, Mr Speaker. In 18 88 the Supreme Court of New Zealand made a decision that has been described as doubtful legally and deplorable. Socially. That doubtful and deplorable decision was to reject the [01:13:30] customary marriages that had existed and to assume that the Marriage law of England took precedent. In fact, the colonial law from another land was considered of such importance, Mr Speaker, that the Children of Maori customary marriages were now described as illegitimate. It's so significant was the status of customary marriages amongst our people that they continued to be recognised for the purposes of succession to Maori land until 1951. [01:14:00] So, Mr Speaker, when opponents of this bill criticise a change to the definition of marriage as Contrave contravening our sacred traditions, I'd have to say whose traditions are we talking about? And I want to bring a specific contribution to this house as a proud of in 19 and 18 49. Mr Speaker, we where he shared his knowledge of our in in a publication called And it's one of those stories [01:14:30] I want to bring to the house with me today. You, sir, may well have heard the story about a story of love glorified by Victorian settlers with all the markings of romance. According to tribal law swam to in the middle of to be with her true loved one. Everybody say, 00, But, sir, I'm gonna add an extra part of the story and tell you instead about and [01:15:00] before he married Mr Speaker to had a close male content companion Tiki in a manuscript by says to his father, translated Mr Speaker to love and I am stricken with love for my friend [01:15:30] later refers to as and so Mr Speaker from the wisdom of a new word was coined, defined in the Dictionary of the Maori language, compiled by the missionary William Williams, 18 44 as an intimate companion of the same sex Mr Speaker, Tata is now used universally to describe people who might otherwise be, uh, describe themselves as gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual intersexual. [01:16:00] This history is set out by a Maori academic, uh, not of, but nevertheless Dr Clive Espen in his analysis of Maori sexualities. The research tracked fast forward to the early two thousands, uh, with the Maori Sexuality Project undertaken at Auckland University. Many of the respondents, Mr Speaker in that research, were able to recall examples of their and talking about people they knew who had same sex attraction. [01:16:30] These people held traditions of importance and status within their and according to Dr Aspen, they were not rejected or marginalised and were considered to be valuable members of their communities. Mr. Speaker, talking about our history, our shared history in a is really important. We all all know another painful history of discrimination or prejudice of homophobia expressed by other members in this house tonight, young people in such agony about the way [01:17:00] that they live their lives. That suicide becomes the only option of people living in fear and shame. Scared of the harassment that they've all too often experienced and some of the same. Some of the lobbying every MP has endured over this last nine months has shown us the ugliness of stigma that has been at. And so I urge all of us to think deeply about the universal values of commitment, of trust, faith and hope. [01:17:30] Mr. Speaker, as this third reading comes to an end I think about and who now know that they don't have to hide the fact that there are two moms in their household that parents who want to know that their son can marriage can marry the man of his dreams. And they can be all out and proud on their special day. And for all of our who celebrate tonight as the day in which history is made. Mr. Speaker Sergeant, the honourable member. His time has expired. [01:18:00] Um order, Order! I call the honourable Che brows. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Thank you for the opportunity of speaking in this call. And I will be splitting my call with, uh Jonathan Young, uh, MP for New Plymouth. And I want to say that, um, today I was pleased to get a text from my, [01:18:30] uh, my good friend Gerard Langford, who, uh, texted me and said, uh, mate, uh, I know this is a big day, and I know we see these things, uh, differently, but, uh, all the best for today. And I said thanks, Gerard. Uh, you are the gay friend I cite most often, Uh, the fact is that, uh uh, my good friendship with Gerard and his partner, Rangi, has led me along a line which has got me to change my view. In respect of gay things, [01:19:00] I believe I believe that people who love one another should be with one another and should commit to one another publicly because I believe that relationships with the two with within, uh between two people who love one another should be strong, should be publicly committed and will en enable our community to be stronger. I also believe [01:19:30] that the the true discussion here is about the equality, the legal equality of relationships, whether they be heterosexual or whether they be homosexual, whether they be marriage or whether they be civil union or whether they be de facto, and I believe that they should be equal. And I think it is a shame that amongst many people that are within our community, they are not. And I think that that is really to our detriment. [01:20:00] And I would like to think that people would be able to look across relationships within our community and see that that is right, that people who love one another should be able to commit with one another. And I am, Um I'm also of the opinion that those people who have come out and argued from a strident faith perspective, uh, that this is a wrong vote are wrong in themselves. I [01:20:30] also believe, though, that that we should be having a debate tonight about what is marriage and what is not marriage. And I will believe I will be voting against this bill because I think we should be having the larger the debate. And that debate is about what is marriage and what is not marriage. I believe very strongly, for instance, that um, two people who are married who are [01:21:00] in a heterosexual relationship should be allowed to be able to do that. I do not believe for one moment that two people who are the same gender who commit to one another in any way at all detract from the 34 year old, uh, marriage that my wife and I enjoy. But I believe that this debate should be about what it is about. And if that is about the equality of legal status of relationships within our society, then we should be having [01:21:30] the courage or the balls or whatever it is to have exactly that debate. I'm concerned, too. And I've had discussions this week, um, within members across the house and Lusa, uh, in particular, uh, about, for instance, the status of those civil celebrants and those celebrants of organisations such as the Anglican, the Methodist Church, who have not taken a stand or a position in respect of this particular bill, uh, [01:22:00] or gay marriage in effect that, um, they should be able to rest in the confidence that the, um, the human Rights Commissioner has given them that they will be able to refuse the opportunity to wed gay couples who present themselves for marriage on the basis of of their own opinion and their own belief. And it's important to state that now, although it may be very dry and un emotive to be able to do that, because [01:22:30] in in terms of statutory interpretation and times to come, that will become important that this Parliament is resting on the advice that has had. Having said that, I would like to just acknowledge this. And that is that I came to this house as a fairly ignorant person out of the provinces in order to represent the, um, the uh, constituency of Wu who elected me to Parliament. I am pleased to note that I have established a number of relationships, and [01:23:00] I have changed my mind in respect of those relationships. I am grateful, uh, for the privilege of having friendships and associations. I have the love and the friendship of a number of people who are in a range of relations relationships, whether they be homosexual or heterosexual, it means nothing. I believe that this debate, the Honourable member has time has expired. [01:23:30] I, um, call Jonathan Young. Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to stand and speak in this debate. It's isn't often that debates in this house and around this country, uh, engage the hearts and minds in a way that this debate has. I believe it is because it touches issues deep within the core of people's being. It's to do with our most important relationship. It's to do with family. It's to do with Children. It's to do with all the important things [01:24:00] we do everything else for. And here we are in this, uh, powerful expression of the democratic process, with different views on an issue with so many emotions. And I believe that in this debate it's not as clear as many people think. I think that there are views and issues that many people New Zealanders and our communities are struggling with are wondering about and are [01:24:30] looking to this house tonight. I believe our society is probably more divided than this house is on this issue, and everyone has a right to their view and a right to express it and a right to agree or disagree. And I hope in a civil society to be respected because of or despite their view, and it's appropriate that diverse opinions be expressed in this house tonight. In this House disagreement is the air we breathe, but it's how we disagree that it's [01:25:00] important. And by and large, this debate has been calmer than many other debates in this house tonight. I expect that this bill will pass despite my vote, which some will know hasn't supported its transition through the house thus far. For a long time now, I have been very supportive of civil unions. For all the reasons that people are now perhaps applying to the marriage debate, I can empathise how perhaps a couple [01:25:30] may want to have the legal recognition some or some institutional formality or support their relationship and give them that sense of, um, perhaps even permanence, that it may bring or support. And on the occasion of that celebration that a wedding can bring, because I believe that everybody wants to celebrate their relationships. Your relationship is your business, and I've been happy to support that. [01:26:00] And I think I was happy when the civil Union bill came through, because in a sense, it was a new legal recognition that was a mirror of marriage. But it also maintained perhaps the age old institution of marriage, and I do think in societies that traditions are important and have a place. A tradition is a convention of belief or behaviour that stands the test of time. [01:26:30] A tradition is the institutional memory of a society. It is not to be cast off or cast away quickly or easily because it's the touch Touchstone of a value which perhaps younger minds may not fully understand yet enter into because it's there. Traditions are what we use to guide people, I believe, into the things of life that have been proven to work. Those might be the very sentiments. While [01:27:00] we are debating this bill, but what we are debating, I believe it is not necessarily about love because love is not legislated. I love that, uh, campaign. I thought it was pretty good Grant. It's a great idea about legalising love, but I don't know whether you can do that. I know the angle you're taking. I know what you're talking about, but I think the human heart is too rampant and too romantic to be contained and boxed and denied. I believe that people [01:27:30] will pursue that which brings their meaning and fulfilment in life essentially the value of marriage, which this society holds is that you become my one and only, and we commit to the best of our ability to make this an exclusive and a permanent relationship. That's the reason why I supported civil unions, because I believe that you could in that essence, in that sense. And I know that perhaps many [01:28:00] people say we need to move on. But in that sense, there's a sense of recognition, exclusivity and permanence that come to relationships. My view, Mr Speaker, is that history and tradition have invested significant meaning into the term of marriage, and I believe that we need to retain its present definition. Thank you, sir. Um, I call up are called [01:28:30] Thank you, Mr Speaker. It's my intention to split this call with, uh, mojo mat from the Green Party. Mr. Speaker, it is a privilege to take a call on this final stage of a historical moment not just for this parliament, lesbian, gay, bi and transsexual community, but also for our country. I wanted to take this opportunity because there's more than one Pacific perspective in this house and and and in our country to my fellow Pacific members of Parliament. I respect your choice [01:29:00] to those in the Pacific community who oppose this bill. I respect your beliefs and I hope that you respect and understand my choice and my strongly held beliefs. The belief driving my choice, in my opinion, is more prevalent but not restricted to younger Pacific Islanders. But it is in no way meant to be disrespectful or a challenge to our elders. In fact, in my mind, my strongly held views derive from the strong Pacific values that have been passed on to me by my parents and family. [01:29:30] I am proud to support this bill. To me, it speaks to the heart of the values of what being Pacific in New Zealand is. Those are values of family, love, inclusion, equality, respect and for having pride in who you are. Our parents, grandparents and great grandparents came to New Zealand to give their families a better life. Vital in that was that they came to these shores and got a fair go, were treated equally, were not discriminated against [01:30:00] and that they were given the respect that every New Zealander deserved. As we know, that was not always the case. There were battles, battles are won and the Pacific community is now proud and vibrant. Our gay community is also proud and vibrant. They, too, have battled. And like all other kiwis, they deserve the full enjoyment of the values of family, love, inclusion, equality and respect. I know there are [01:30:30] strong religious veins in the Pacific community, and I respect that and the views that they have that many young gay Pacific Islanders have found this debate difficult. Many have grown up and maintained strong religious beliefs. They have told me one of the hardest things in the public debate has been hearing. The God that they worship seems to see seems to see them differently. My God does not. I hope that our community can embrace that. There are many in our families who, on a daily basis, struggle to be openly who they [01:31:00] are. For cultures whose very survival relies on pride of identity, cultures and language, and being proud of who we are, We need to let our youngsters know that in every respect they should be proud of who they are, and we are proud of who they are locally. Can I thank all those who respectfully gave their opinions both for and against in particular. Can I thank Pastor Ken Roach from the church? We both discussed, dissected and disagreed, but it was always [01:31:30] respectful. The Government Administration Select Committee, led by the Honourable Ruth, strengthen this bill to address many, many issues that church leaders like Ken held. It made it clear no minister or religious celebrant is obliged to marry a couple if doing so would contravene the religious beliefs or philosophical or humanitarian convictions of a religious body or organisation. I'd like to thank Louisa Wall who worked from the outset to ensure respect for religious [01:32:00] beliefs despite the fundamental differences of opinion. Before I conclude, I'd like to acknowledge Mayor Jenny Rowan and her partner, Jules, who I understand are somewhere in the precincts of Parliament. They have been at the forefront of this long running issue because the courts denied them their right to marry. Well, Jules, when this bill was pulled out of the ballot, I remember seeing you at mall and you said I'll believe it when I see it well tonight, seeing is believing I'm going to end like Marion Street [01:32:30] the way I I ended my maiden speech with a quote from William Penn that I hold dear. It reads I expect to pass through life. But once if therefore there be any kindness I can show or any good thing I can do to any fellow being Let me do it now and not defer or neglect it as I shall not pass this way again, Mr Speaker, Tonight, this house will do that. [01:33:00] I call Mojo Methos. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I would like to start by expressing my heartfelt thanks to every member of the house to vote for this bill tonight. Your vote will mean a great deal to me, To my family and [01:33:30] to thousands of other New Zealanders, my family had been fortunate to have a beautiful rainbow bed that had woven itself in and out of multiple generations on both side and created artists and teachers, dreamers and doctors to name just a few. And this wonderful way both word has [01:34:00] been continued. And the dump this generation. And it's reflected in my beautiful, loving daughter. Last year she went to her first formal with her girlfriend. They look absolutely stunning in black and gold with gold makeup. Mr. Speaker, it was with immense pride that I want them walking into that formal hand [01:34:30] in hand, openly declaring their love and affection for each other. They had a wonderful evening, and we have many lovely photos to remember it by Mr Speaker. For me, one of the highlights of being a mother is when my daughter snuggles up to me on the sofa and shares with me her hope, her dream, her aspirations for her future. [01:35:00] And like countless other young women, she hopes for love mother Turton, a good job and a house with a white picket fence. All of these adoptions are available to her older sister and when this bill passes tonight, But I hope it does about the most of my daughters [01:35:30] this equal opportunity to marry the person they love. No mother could be more proud of her daughters than I am, and to see them have equal rights before the law is very important to me. And I know from the wonderful image that I have seen that there are many other parents around the country who want their Children to have the same right [01:36:00] to marry the person they love. I also have loved ones from the community for whom this will my career. It will make a difference for them, whether or not they choose to marry, because it will affirm that they have equal right before the law, regardless of their sexual orientation. When I was growing up, I witnessed bullying and taunting [01:36:30] of young people suspected of being gay. It was a terrible experience and profoundly distressing. And since that time I have seen significant cultural change in attitude towards gay people. And I have seen fear being replaced with love, bullying the place with acceptance, rejecting the place with tolerance. And I find [01:37:00] it incredibly sad that opponents of marriage, equality speak of their culture change as if it's something to be afraid of. For me, it is something to be embraced with open arms. So I'll be voting for this bill as an affirmation of the right of you and the hope that one day every young person in New Zealand will feel safe and confident about their sexuality, [01:37:30] faith and fear and bullying. Mr. Speaker, every member in the House who vote for this bill tonight will be voting for love, tolerance and acceptance on behalf of my family and thousands of other new Zealanders. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [01:38:00] I called Doctor Paul Hutchison. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I planned to split my call with Chris. It is a great privilege to have the responsibility to exercise a conscience vote on this landmark marriage amendment. Bill. I want to once again acknowledge all those who have submitted and written [01:38:30] on this bill from both sides of the debate and thank them for their passion, energy efforts and sincerity. Thank you for your fortitude and those that I have heard from young and old, from all walks of life, all religions in and around New Zealand. Thank you to so many parliamentary colleagues at one of my electorate meetings. [01:39:00] A highly intelligent, crusty salt of the Earth farmer urged me to vote against the bill. But he later joked how over the last few generations, the sequence of events has gone like this. In the first instance, parents such as himself used to tell their daughters not to come home with someone from a different religion, then not to come home with someone from a different race. Definitely not to [01:39:30] come home single and pregnant, and today not to come home with someone from the same sex, let alone marry them. He encapsulates the fact he encapsulates the fact that society has evolved enormously within a few generations, just as marriage has been evolving as a civil and religious institution throughout human [01:40:00] history. In New Zealand, we do not have such a clear separation between church and state, as some jurisdictions and I. I agree with the argument that the best way to protect religious freedom is to ensure separation of church and state when it comes to equality under the law. With this legislation, significant safeguards are in place to ensure that marriage celebrants, clergy [01:40:30] in particular remain free to choose, according to their convictions. As a former specialist, obstetrician and gynaecologist, extremely poignant experiences for me were the rare occurrences where, at the birth of a baby, when the parents instinctively ask, Is it a boy or a girl that I have been literally unable to tell them? This has been because [01:41:00] of ambiguous genitalia or a unique physical abnormality. It may take some weeks to fully assess a child, have genetic testing, carried out and assign a sex even that may be later changed. This illustrates the dramatic new knowledge available in the modern world to better understand the spectrum of physical, genetic and social expression of gender and sexuality that was simply [01:41:30] not possible in the past, I ask anyone on either side of the debate. Would they not hope that their newborn can be brought up in a society that is both tolerant and caring of their child's status and aspirations as any other child, a society that is inclusive, fair and committed to respecting one another? [01:42:00] It is a sign of huge change that today 65% of marriage ceremonies in New Zealand are solemnised independently of the church when it comes to marriage. As Reverend Margaret Mayham puts it, the overriding message of Christian faith is that we are all called to practise justice and compassion and to welcome those who are marginalised and oppressed. [01:42:30] The biblical call to love our neighbour as ourselves provides the mandate for marriage equality. The ethical criterion of a marriage relationship is to do with the quality, not the orientation of the partners. In the first reading of this bill, I said that despite trying hard, I could not construct a strong enough intellectual, moral health or even spiritual reason to vote against it. I'm now quite convinced [01:43:00] that at the end of the day, the strength of any human union is about love, tolerance, giving, forgiving, sharing, inclusiveness, commitment and fairness irrespective of gender. These are universal. The Honourable Member. As time has expired, [01:43:30] I call Chris Oval. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr. Speaker, In the second reading of this bill, I, along with my fellow members of the Government Administration Select Committee, discuss the submissions we received and how we approached the points raised. This is a process I believe in, Mr Speaker, A process of listening and considering and reaching a conclusion based on persuasive argument rather than personal reactive [01:44:00] response. This process is over now. It is time for we as a parliament to cast our final votes on this bill and allow our part in this debate to come to an end. As politicians, we are here to legislate, but it's only society which can determine how decisions made by this Parliament affect and are absorbed [01:44:30] into our social mores. As a former Republican governor and current United States Ambassador to China, Jon Huntsman wrote in an article outlining the conservative support for same sex marriage. That quote marriage is not an issue that people rationalise through the abstract lens of the law. This debate that we've been engaged in has highlighted a divide in opinion amongst [01:45:00] this nation between young and old, secular and spiritual, even between members of the same faith and the same family. This type of divide is not new, and nor should it be something that we avoid or dismiss. We faced many issues of conscience in our NA, a nation's relatively short history, and I think we have grown stronger by [01:45:30] facing them together not always as adversaries, but as fellow members of a small and empathetic nation, which often gives fine examples to the rest of the world. It's because of the shared history, Mr Speaker, that I have the faith that we can seize this opportunity to have discussions around the issues raised by this bill in our homes, our churches and everywhere. Honest, thoughtful [01:46:00] debate is respected. This bill is not a panacea, but it is an opportunity. If it is to pass Mr Speaker, we should pass this bill. That is just the beginning of a change process, and I think everyone will acknowledge that it is just a beginning. As an older person, I would ask that the younger generation [01:46:30] epitomised, of course, and my colleague Nikki, show some patience and consideration for those of my generation who will need time to adjust to a change which will be very, very new to us. By the same token, we cannot move forward as a nation if we older ones ignore or reject the heartfelt pleas for respect by [01:47:00] the LGBT community and the younger brigade. We need their acceptance as they are entitled to our acceptance. These impassioned pleas come through loud and clear when you examine the submission process stories of Children too scared to talk to their parents about their sexuality, for fear of punishment [01:47:30] or worth for fear of total rejection. We may not always agree with our Children's decision, and as any parent will tell you, it's our job to worry. But to create an environment where your child can not even talk to you about the issues affecting their lives is unconscious. Mr Speaker. There are those on both sides of the bills who concentrated on their own point of view to the neglect of any consideration of other points [01:48:00] of view. It's necessary if this bill passes and we should pass this bill for groups to reconsider individual standpoints. I feel particularly in respect of the churches, Mr Speaker, that there's a need to pick up the banner somewhat tattered and torn, the banner of Christian love somewhat tarnished. But if it's picked up with hands of every generation of whatever ethnicity or gender identity, their human body is individually glory in, and then their spirits can restitch [01:48:30] restore and make the banner resplendent. And to God be the glory. Thank you. I call the Honourable Ruth Dyson to split my call with, um Moana Maki. I'm proud and privileged to speak in the third reading of this bill. I want to see [01:49:00] this bill passed into law tonight. Want to acknowledge the thousands of people who submitted on the bill? We heard at the Select Committee some very powerful stories. We heard stories from young gay and lesbian New Zealanders who felt so strongly that passing this bill would be a recognition and acceptance of them. For that reason alone, I support this bill. I want to live in a society which is respectful and tolerant where [01:49:30] diversity is recognised and cherished, and we love and commitment is supported. This bill helps to achieve that aim. The bill does three primary things that allows same sex couples to marry. It ensures that we, where a person has transitioned from one gender to another and remain married throughout that significant change that they can have their marriage recognised in the law. And it extends the current provision of [01:50:00] allowing a single person to adopt a child to allow this of same sex married couples. The bill ensures that our religious freedoms for celebrants are maintained. We and the Select committee applied a belt and braces approach to ensure that the law is beyond doubt in backing the rights of marriage celebrants to decline to marry a couple should such a marriage not be in accordance with their beliefs. The Marriage Act has since [01:50:30] 1955 said that celebrants can do that, uh, presumably to protect celebrants from being forced to marry heterosexual couples of different religions or, heaven forbid, marry somebody who was divorced. We have maintained that protection for celebrants under the law. This bill removes section 56 of the Marriage Act. Some people may not be as familiar with that section as I am. So let me [01:51:00] share it with you. The section of the act says that it is an offence to deny or impugn a validity of a lawful marriage. Um, we've taken that section out of our law. We are not proposing that more people denigrate other people's marriages, but we just don't think that that section sits sensibly within a human rights framework. The issue of religious freedoms of celebrants being able to decline to marry a couple [01:51:30] and the view of someone in relation to another's marriage have all been the subject of gross mis representations from opponents about the bill, and I resent those misrepresentations. They've been made by just a small group of opponents, but they have spread these lies about the bill widely, and they've upset people and had people anxious about things that are just not true. I think that lying in a debate [01:52:00] about something as important as this is immoral. I want to pay tribute to the opponents of the bill who told the truth about their reasons for opposition. But sadly, that wasn't the case for all opponents. So, uh, Mr speaker just to clarify. No celebrant will be obliged under the law to marry any couple heterosexual or same sex. The bill does not rewrite the marriage vows. Vows of marriage will be written by the couple getting married in the celebrant, [01:52:30] as they currently are. It will not be illegal to call your husband your husband, and it will not be illegal to call your wife your wife, and you'll still be able to have bride and groom on the marriage certificate, if that's what you want to have on it. Mr. Speaker, I spoke earlier about the gay and lesbian submitters on this bill for many, presenting a submission not just on any bill but a bill about their right to marry [01:53:00] about their life took huge courage, and I want to pay a massive tribute to all those who came along. Some of those submitters, particularly the older ones, told us of feeling rejected in Different told of the fear of coming out to their family and friends of denial of their own sexual orientation of living. Their life is a lie. They told of being bullied and feeling suicidal, of not being part of their own community. This law isn't going to change our world [01:53:30] overnight. We will not wake up tomorrow and find ourselves in a totally tolerant and inclusive society. But this will be a lawful recognition of the value of their loving relationships. It is a step forward in recognising the value of love in our law. [01:54:00] I call my Mackie. Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is an honour and a privilege to be able to speak at the third reading of this bill tonight. And I want to congratulate my friend Lewis Wall for her role in bringing this important bill to the House. I've had a lot of calls from media at home today asking why I support this bill and the answer is simple. I'm voting in favour because I cannot find any compelling reason why law abiding, tax paying Kiwis and committed loving relationships should not be able to access the legal and social benefits of marriage purely based on something they cannot change their sexual orientation. [01:54:30] I am voting for this bill because I believe it will do a lot of good. Just as importantly, I am voting for this bill because I am utterly and completely convinced it will do no harm to marriage, to society or to anyone else, regardless of how they may feel about the issue. I want to thank all those who took the time to submit, to write to us, to Facebook us and to email us. I certainly respect the deep feelings held on both sides of the debate and want to thank members of this House as well as members of the public for the largely respectful way in which the debate has been conducted. Although the person [01:55:00] who sent me an email today describing me as an evil, god hating reprobate may want to re evaluate the effectiveness of their engagement strategy, I sat on the Select Committee for the consideration of this bill, and I was also a member of the committee that considered the civil union legislation back in 2003. I am encouraged by how dramatically the tenor of the debate has shifted. The vitriol that was evident back then has not occurred this time around. I also welcome the belated support for that legislation from those who now argue that civil [01:55:30] unions are an appropriate recognition of same sex relationships that they provide adequate legal protection and are not a second rate option. But as one Submitter told the committee, civil unions aren't a second rate choice if they're your first choice. And whilst I respect the beliefs of those who oppose the bill on religious grounds, I strongly believe that while it is the role of the state to protect freedom of religious expression and this bill reaffirms it, it is not the role of the state to uphold one group's religious beliefs over another. The bill is also in the best [01:56:00] interest of the many Children currently being raised by same sex couples. I could not in good conscience vote against the bill that would ensure all Children in this country are able to benefit from the stability that marriage provides simply because some may disagree with the relationship their parents are in, especially when concerns are being raised in the same sex family Might impact negatively on Children are not borne out by independent, peer reviewed research. This debate is not about special rights. For some, it is in fact, the very opposite. It's about acknowledging that something that used to be seen as so scary and moral and different that my [01:56:30] mother felt compelled to be an active member of a group called Hug Heterosexuals, Unafraid of gays is, in fact, completely normal. This isn't about gay marriage. It's about marriage and bringing marriage into the 21st century. Gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender and intersex people won't be any better or worse at marriage than us straight. They'll face the same challenges. The highs and lows, the successes and the failures. My late grandmother always had a wonderfully uncomplicated approach to life. At one point, she became quite taken with Brendan, [01:57:00] the partner of one of my best friends from high school, Peter. She told me that she would not be at all disappointed if Brendan were to become her grandson in law. I said to her, But Grandma, he's gay. To which she responded. Well, your grandfather wasn't the easiest person to live with, but you make marriage work and she was bang on. If it's the right thing to do, then regardless of the difficulties or downsides, you make it work. [01:57:30] Unfortunately for her, I decided marrying Brendan wasn't the right thing to do. But her point remains yes. Marriage is a responsibility as well as a right? Yes. It may not always go to plan. Yes, There may be bumps along the way, but you make it work. And I know that thousands of Kiwis right across the country tonight are hoping that Parliament passes this legislation tonight so that they can be given that opportunity. I will be proud to cast my vote tonight for marriage equality. I am now gonna sit down so that we can take the vote and pass this bill into law [01:58:00] members. This debate has concluded The question is that the motion be agreed to those of that opinion will say I to the contrary know [01:58:30] the eyes have it A P or a personal vote has been called for. Uh we will conduct a personal vote. Ring the bells members. The eyes will go to the right. The nose to the left abstentions will come to the table. The teller for the eyes will be [01:59:00] the honourable Trevor Mallard. The teller for the nose will be Louise Upton. Abstentions will be recorded by the clerk. Proxy votes must be marked as such members Order! Order! Please Order! Please. The question is that the third reading of the marriage definition of marriage amendment bill [01:59:30] will be agreed to, uh, members and, uh, the gallery. Can I just ask if you refrain from any comment? There will be a A after the clerk has announced the third reading. Um, but I just asked so that we can get the procedures of the house completed. Members, the eyes are 77. The nose are 44. [02:00:00] Unlock the doors. Um, [02:00:30] marriage definition of marriage amendment Bill, Third reading. Yeah. How are you? I understand. Uh, OK, [02:01:00] [02:01:30] yeah. [02:02:00] Yeah. [02:02:30] [02:03:00] [02:03:30] All the place or or replace the house is sus is suspended. I shall resume the chair at nine [02:04:00] o'clock tomorrow for the extended sitting. I well.

IRN: 1227
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rnz_hui_takataapui_david_kukutai_jones.html
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ATL URL: 
TITLE: David Kukutai Jones - Hui Takatāpui 2014
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VOICES: David Kukutai Jones
INTERVIEWER: Maraea Rakuraku
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; David Kukutai Jones; Hamilton; Hui Takatāpui; Hui Takatāpui (2014); Maraea Rakuraku; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Te Papa-o-Rotu Marae; Whatawhata; hui; marae; marriage equality; takatāpui
DATE: 23 November 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Te Papa-o-Rotu Marae, 145 Maori Point Road, Whatawhata
CONTEXT: David Kukutai Jones, chair of Hui Takatāpui 2014, talks to Maraea Rakuraku.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: David Jones were in the second day of 2014. Um, and it is freezing. We're sitting in the now. How has the hui been? And what kind of organisation Ninja skills do you have to have to pull this off? We're only on day two, but, [00:00:30] uh, even from the start, when the when the rang out at the, um, I was, um, overwhelmed. Um, with everything that had gone right up until that point and the set it off on a really positive note, Um, so much so that I just sort of trusted the process that, um, everyone had followed up until that point. And so I knew that the the outcome that was envisaged would actually come about. And it's the second day. Now, um, [00:01:00] the first day was wonderful. The second day there were better, Uh, and we've got one more to go and I, I can just only imagine that it's going to be as good as or perhaps even as better as the last two days. And what number is this? I mean, you've come to a number of these in the past. Yeah, well, my first one, I have been in by the organising committee, uh, to run workshops on and spirituality. And at that at that time, though, I thought, Oh, this [00:01:30] is just a bunch of, you know, they're sort of either young kids or, um 20. Something just sort of felt invisible. So I didn't really think that, um, they would regard as having a place in their particular lives at that time. Uh, so I turned the whole, um, uh the whole focus of the seminar on into a, um into a game show for everybody. Um, and, um, I [00:02:00] got them interested in spirituality on that particular level. So we had, um, next top witch doctor, Um and, uh, and all of the participants were competing against each other, um, regarding their knowledge of Maori spirituality. But from there, um, I really liked the feeling that I got from the particular who, because it was all about all about unity and all about oneness. And that's, um And although we're a really broad [00:02:30] cross section of the GL BT community, um, we all seem to come together on those commonalities. And from then, um, uh, I went to an next, uh, another one and uh, this is this will be my third one, but it actually is the chair in organising this one. You know, it's, uh there's a really lovely feeling here of I mean, the what people are talking about tends to be quite heavy around various [00:03:00] coming out stories and experiences of being. And what's that? What that has meant in terms of community. But the feeling here is really lovely. Yeah, it's of acceptance and non judgement. I mean, people are talking about it, but it's quite another thing to feel it. A Yeah, I think, um, for a long time, Um, a lot of the GL BT Q I community. Um, [00:03:30] I had always been quite dissatisfied with the way that, um, the heterosexual community have perceived them. Um uh, and that, um they were totally alien to, um our normal, um, society. So the issues that affected them were entirely of their own and that sort of thing. But if we look at a higher level at the human condition and that need for love and acceptance and that sort of thing that runs right across society, [00:04:00] and so, um, this particular cross section of the community came together with With that, with that in mind, those values in mind, Um, and so they can express anything. Um, they can talk about anything, and they can be quite frank about it. Um, I don't know that their views will be respected as a young man yourself. When you came out with a like this have been beneficial for you. [00:04:30] Yeah. Yeah, undoubtedly. And although this has been going since 1986 I had been so, uh, caught up with, um, other things in my life that, um, as my sort of sexuality itself, um, was put on the wayside. So I was a virgin up until 26. And then when I found out And then when I found out how to use it, Well, then I was away. But, um, but if I had known about these types of, um, forums and these types of conferences, um, [00:05:00] then perhaps I would have approached that part of my life a little bit earlier, OK? Really love it? Do you tend to see the same people coming year after year? No. The, um there are other, you know, the [00:05:30] wars and the the ones that hold everything together um, but there's But depending on where it goes, there's a broader range of people that keep coming. Um, this year was a little bit different because we have tried to incorporate, um, our who have, um GL BT Q i members in their family. Um, so that they could come and, um, listen to some of the concerns that their own members have that perhaps they were unaware of. Or perhaps they didn't. [00:06:00] They, um, ignored it because they didn't. They themselves didn't know how to help their members or, you know, members of the family who were going through those particular issues. Um, and in my own case, my dad was the same. Um, and and he was so cute. He, um he was a little bit insecure with me coming out only because he didn't know how to provide leadership for me as a dad and that sort of thing. And [00:06:30] I know because my dad, he's a dude and he takes he's the head of the family, and he takes it as a family. And what affects the one individual affects the family. So, um, and I luckily, I saw it for what it was and I had to. Sure. My father, he was a good dad and that, um I have got some issues, but I will get through them myself. And what about your siblings? How are they? Are they good? My sister married her wife. Um uh, two years ago. Now, three years, three years ago. Now, uh, and my other brother and sisters, [00:07:00] I'm the oldest. Uh, so they sort of found it a little bit comical that they're the oldest and strongest of their brothers who come out. Um, but they are totally accepting because, um, to a certain degree, I was, um I was a, you know, strong mentor for all of my brothers and sisters. And you've been I mean, you got married yourself. Yes. Um um 11, 12, 13 11th of December, 2013. Um, my partner [00:07:30] and I We I got married at the registry office, uh, here in Hamilton city. And then, um, we had a big family dinner together that evening. It was very nice. So how valuable was it that gay marriage was legalised in for you? Well, for me individually, um, as an individual, um, I love my partner and to me, that's all that all that really matters. But I could see how important it was for my partner to, you know, to [00:08:00] go through that ritual of belonging and that sort of thing. And so I did it for my partner because basically, the thing is, it's about making people visible. So prejudice, homophobia is so insidious because it makes people invisible. Yeah, One of the funniest things, I suppose, is that people don't know that they're being homophobic sometimes, um, because they [00:08:30] don't recognise things outside of their own immediate sphere. And so those things that sort of seem alien or unlike them, they tend to ignore. And, I mean, I've got to say I've been I've been really horrified at some of the stories that have been coming out. So, for instance, um, people with HIV people who have died and the way have responded to that in terms of them being [00:09:00] allowed to be buried in the when they come back to the back to the and the thing around, burying in the and Yeah, and that was one of the those were a couple of the drivers. I suppose that, um I mean, that's challenging to hear when we live in a as Maori is supposed to be, you know? [00:09:30] You know, I mean, that's confronting when I heard that it was confronting the fact that some or even gay who were going to into and having the additional smash straight after for fear of the local community catching anything even though they mean the people eating may not have had anything. And then there's other extremes of people passing away from HIV AIDS and being unable to be buried in the family cemetery for fear of any of the, um, virus [00:10:00] leaching into the into the and that sort of thing. Um, let alone the fact that embalming flu, it has an even worse effect on the environment. Um, but, um, so this so I saw an opportunity there. I saw an opportunity there not only for um, this cross section of communities to come together in oneness and unity and be accepted amongst themselves, but an opportunity to open it broader and to inform those people who were doing those types of things that, um to allay them of their [00:10:30] fears. And they were coming. They were coming from those positions because of a lack of information and just no knowledge. And, um, of the of, you know, HIV aids or gay people and that sort of thing as well. So that was one of the main drivers. And, um, the other day and the other day I was, um uh I laughed a little bit when I heard one of the old queers and she was reading a flag that was flying out in front of the, [00:11:00] um, as part of the, um, safe sex promotions for, um, people to wear condoms. And the was reading the flag. And it's lovely, Your condom. And she she had a good hard look at the flag. And then she went, Love you, we when she saw the condom and did she spun around in the Maori. She shouted out the cancellation for what she had just read and all [00:11:30] the other nannies all boo start laughing. And there was a couple of nannies there who were a little bit startled, you know, with that with that with, um, with that particular flag. But then they all agreed they had come to support their and, uh, and support the issues that affected their members, who were coming to the and they all said Yes, we're here for And so we will support the And then they had a good cackle and a laugh, and then they, you know, they went back to their normal day.

IRN: 893
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TITLE: Flashback to homosexual law reform
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VOICES: Bill Logan; Glenda Gale; John Banks; Linda Evans; Norman Jones; Patricia Bartlett; Tighe Instone
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; Alison Laurie; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bill Logan; Cynthia Bagwash; David Hindley; Glenda Gale; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Norman Jones; Salvation Army; Salvation Army Citadel; Tighe Instone; Wellington; homosexual; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition
DATE: 9 July 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: A short audio montage highlighting some of the people and actions during homosexual law reform in Aotearoa New Zealand (1985-1986). A video version is also available.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: This audio comes from the collections of the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand. For more information, visit Legans dot org dot NZ. Right, so homosexual. As far as I'm concerned, [00:00:30] sex legalise the the sex all right, thank you [00:01:00] concerned Christians hiring town halls to discuss the problems of the alienation of Children of our society or violence within the family. Do not see this happening, and we question the motives for their concern. I believe their concern is founded on irrational fear and ignorance. We are citizens of this country. We demand our rights [00:01:30] as citizens of New Zealand. What is your member's opinion of the homosexual law reform bill? They completely opposed to it. For what reason? It's against the law of nature. And if the homosexuals just prevented diversion with themselves, they would die out in one generation. Once the law is changed, a certain number of people that think if there's no law against it, it is quite all right. And in some people's minds it could even be considered normal once the law [00:02:00] says it's not an offence. And this way the practise of homosexual activity will spread as it has in San Francisco. Every country which has legalised it has had an increase in sexual activity amongst homosexuals. [00:02:30] What do you think of the Salvation Army joining in the March today? I think it was very good of them to come to our support. It's the first time they've given a public exhibition of support, and especially to provide the music for us was really helpful because we often have trouble maintaining our own rhythms. Yes, I noticed the Salvation Army people here were really joining in for the Lesbian Gay Chance. Do you think they really support lesbian and gay rights? They were clapping in time with our chance more than in time with their music. It was pretty amazing. But from some of the conversations that are going on around about between gay men and lesbians and members of the Salvation Army, I wouldn't be under any illusion that most of them are still [00:03:00] strongly opposed to lesbian and gay rights. Jesus was gay. Oh, Jesus was God. I so 835,000 New Zealanders average decent people presented this parliament [00:03:30] with a petition saying they don't want to know about this bill. They don't want to legalise sodomy for 16 year olds, 17 year olds, 18 year olds or 20 year olds. They don't want to have sodomy legalised for armed servicemen. They don't want to have sodomy legalised for any sector of our society because they say that legalising sodomy is the thin edge of the wedge, and it's going to destabilise the family unit, destroy [00:04:00] this nation and democracy. Friday, the 13th of September, black and pink Friday saw another huge lesbian and gay march through the streets of Wellington. This time, nearly 10,000 lesbians, gay men and their friends marched in support of lesbian and gay rights. In the past, we have been easily silenced, and we have been made invisible. Tonight we are saying we [00:04:30] have had enough. This whole thing started for us as a campaign in our interests, a campaign to give us as gay people, some some beginning towards a liberation. But it's become, over the course of time, something much different than that. This campaign has become a pivotal issue in New Zealand politics. [00:05:00] It's a this has become a fight to preserve a certain openness in society. And so it's for that reason that the gay communities and the lesbian community have got to look beyond our own boundaries for support in the community more widely for support among other people who stand for decency, openness, liberality and freedom.

IRN: 707
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/auckland_pride_festival_2013_julian_cook.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004220
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089514
TITLE: Julian Cook - Auckland Pride Festival 2013
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Julian Cook
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Ahilapalapa Rands; Alex Plumb; Alex Taylor; Annea Lockwood; Aorewa Mcleod; Aotearoa New Zealand; Ash Spittal; Auckland; Auckland Pride Festival; Beth Hudson; Big Gay Out (Auckland); Black Faggot (play); Buckwheat; Cathy Head; Colin McLean; Deborah Rundle; Douglas Lilburn; Fran Marno; GALS (Gay and Lesbian Singers, Auckland); Gobsmacked: Showbiz and Dating; Hero (Auckland); Heroes Out West (Auckland); Heroic Gardens; Imogen Taylor; Jack Body; Jamie Burgess; Jodi Pringle; John Parker; Jonathan Smith; Julian Cook; Kitsch in Synch; Layne Waerea; Lisa Prager; Maree Sheehan; Mika X; Miriam Saphira; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Nikki Aitken; Ponti; Pride parade (Auckland); Queerlesque; Salon Mika; Sam Johnson; Samuel Holloway; Sarah Murphy; Steven Oates; Sue Marshall; Tess Tickle; The Johnnys; The Muse; Tuafale Tanoa'i; Verity George; Victor Rodger; arts; burlesque; drag; event management; herstory; history; homophobia; music; performance; pride; sport; suicide; theatre; visibility; visual arts; youth
DATE: 3 February 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Pride Festival Co-ordinator Julian Cook talks about some of the sixty events happening during the Auckland Pride Festival 2013. For more details about the Pride Festival visit their website.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, we're in Mount Albert Road in Auckland, and we're at the sort of pseudo pride HQ, which is my home and home office. Um, and this is kind of, um, the sort of marketing and festival hub where it all sort of comes out of basically. So this time around, What? What's your role with pride? Uh, I'm the Pride festival coordinator. So I'm pretty much responsible for everything except for the big parade, Uh, which Jonathan Smith is doing, uh, which I'm really grateful for [00:00:30] because, um, he's, um, incredibly organised and incredibly onto it. And it means that that particular event, with the exception of perhaps the marketing aspects of it, I don't have to worry about at all, which is wonderful. So this pride festival in 2013, this is kind of like the first major kind of pride event we've had in New Zealand since What hero in the early two thousands. Yeah, I would say, probably since 2001, Um, which was the [00:01:00] last full scale hero. Um, that was the year that I did the big, uh, party at the Auckland Town hall and then subsequent to that there was all of the financial crises. And by 2002, um, the hero and and the feeling around hero had changed completely, and it it had become quite dark. I actually ended up doing the 2002 party as well, um, in the Saint James Theatre, and it's often called the Dark Hero party. And actually, it was very dark and [00:01:30] very intellectual. And the reason for that, um, was because the artists that I was working with, um that was how they were feeling and how they were expressing themselves through their art. Um, on that night and it it did wind up being quite I found it fascinating. I had DJ S and stuff coming up to me around some of the shows going, Oh, my God, that is the most conceptual crazy show I think I've ever seen at a gay dance party. And, um, I love that, But for some people, it was a bit heavy. What [00:02:00] is the, uh, community reaction been to to do something like a pride thing? That, because I mean hero did kind of burn out a wee bit in the two thousands? What kind of response? have you had from the kind of rainbow community it did and there needed to be a there needed to be a space. There needed to be some time, um, for the community to get over hero, um, to figure out what it wanted moving forwards and to, um, get that energy store moving forwards and that desire to move [00:02:30] forwards. And, um, it really has I mean, there's 60 quite 60 completely different events within this year's festival. Um, that's not including season runs and exhibition runs and things like that. So, um, that in itself speaks for the community's real need, um, and desire to express itself and to explore who it is in 2013. Um, so, yeah, II, I think there is. I think that demonstrates [00:03:00] the need for it. So are you seriously saying that you've pulled together 60 events to a large degree? Um, there's there's those that are out there that, um, would be happening anyway. Like obviously they get it on big gay out, um, heroes out west. These things have gardens. I'm really sort of happy to have them back within a pride or a gay festival for the first time in over a decade. I think, um, they were originally part of hero and then became really distanced from [00:03:30] the gay events and have come back under the umbrella this year for the first time in a long time. So there are those things that are out there already. But then there's, um when I first was given the position, the very first thing I did was realise how short the timelines were and, um went out and started hustling with event organisers and possible promoters and people who do stuff and, um, just getting them infused and in some cases, um, elbowing them into action. [00:04:00] So when were you given the the role? God, When was it? I think it was in October, September October, which actually, when you think about it is not, you know, that's not a long time ago. Yeah, so that was the very first thing I did was starting to engage with people before I got into any of the paperwork aspects or the administrative side of things. The first thing I wanted to ensure was that we had a programme and we do in quite an extensive programme. I mean, it goes for about 2. 5 weeks. It's [00:04:30] two weeks. Three weekends. Yeah, yeah. So 60 different individual events within that time. It's There's a lot on. And the interesting thing for me about doing, uh a a large, um, pride style festival is that you don't just focus on music. You don't just focus on art, you've it's really broad. So you've got everything from sporting events to lifestyle events like the Gardens or, um, the dog event that Stephen Oates is doing and right through to, [00:05:00] um, sexuality style events, Um, and big outdoor film nights. And it's the variety is mammoth. And, um, that's what I personally really enjoy about it is actually being able to engage that diversity and, um, make it tangible. Were you involved in any way in picking the theme of of the Pride Festival this year? Which was, I think, was it one community? That's the theme for the parade, right? Um, and basically, it's quite interesting. That was Jonathan's, [00:05:30] um, that was his his working and his doing. Um, and I have to say I, I had to. I came in and said, OK, great, like there's a theme for the parade. It works really, really well, because actually, what the parade is about is taking the different strands of all the different communities and tying them together into one big rope that goes down Ponsonby Road. So in many ways, one community does express what it sort of physically does. Um, [00:06:00] the festival is the exact opposite of that. The festival is about picking apart the strands and, um, actually exploring all of the real differences. Um, within all of the different communities that make up the rainbow community. Um, there are a few events within the festival in which there's a coming together, Um, for example, the Auckland Pride gala or the big closing Proud Party. Those are again events where you want the communities to come [00:06:30] together. Um, but for the most part, the festival is actually about exploring differences. How easy or hard was it finding, uh, participants for the festival? Um, not that hard, Really. I mean, I've Like I said, I think there was a real a real desire and a real need to for the community to express itself and to have a platform to do that from, um Also, I've been doing this for a long, long time, so I've got a lot of, um a lot of connections. Um, within [00:07:00] an event. Organisers and artists and producers within the queer communities. Um, and also, I mean a lot. A lot of these are some of my best friends. So, um, for me, engaging with them is actually a very easy process. Have you found that that that that many people actually are coming to you and saying we want to be part of this or have you been having to kind of hunt people down a bit of both? Um, yeah. No, a bit of both. Um, the interesting one for me is the sort of my key learning in that area [00:07:30] this year would have to be youth. And, um, the realisation that young people, there's been a whole generation, if not two, who haven't had the opportunity to engage in a pride festival or a gay festival of this nature. Um and so for them, it's a steeper learning curve about how they go about, um, engaging and, um, hopefully, you know, they've They've picked up some skills this year and that will increase next year and [00:08:00] and the year after. Um I mean, for example, I just had a, uh, emails from a young lesbian woman, Um, just last week asking if she could get into the programme. And it's like, Well, you're a month and a half too late. Um, so you try to engage them in other ways, but it's just even knowing how a festival works and the timelines involved and how you go about engaging and what it what's required and organising your own event. Well, these are all skills that, um they will hopefully be learning and picking up. [00:08:30] Um, this year, what has it been like trying to get established events that have been going on for years? So, like the big gay art or or others into the festival, Um, it's sometimes it's really easy. Sometimes it's really challenging. Um, and it takes a while. I mean, this is the first year of of a big gay festival coming back, and so you're faced with a lot of sort of first time festival questions. Um, sort of OK, is this something that I want to engage [00:09:00] with? Is it going to be of a quality that I'm happy to engage with, um is will it allow me the autonomy to still have my own event within that, um, and hopefully the answer to all those questions is yes. Um, but, you know, sometimes you also come up against I think sometimes the the New Zealand gay community, um, can be very insular and very [00:09:30] sort of internally focused and focused on because it's made up of so many niche communities. Sometimes they focus so much on their own small group that it's hard to get them to see the big picture. And so you are occasionally faced with Well, I mean, sometimes you just and this is true of of other cities around New Zealand as well. You're actually faced with small minded small town bullies who, um, run aspects of their community and who really aren't [00:10:00] prepared to share that or to engage with other aspects of, of, of the broader community. Um, and dealing with them is actually really, really difficult, and they a lot of them have been around for a long time, and they've become really OK. They've become really sort of stuck in their mindset, and it's really challenging them. It's really challenging for them to actually have to step back and go OK. By engaging [00:10:30] with this, I can actually help a broader community. I can bring what I do into a broader sort of. I can widen it. Um, and I can I can make the community stronger as a whole, and it's not always easy getting them to see that, Um, a lot of them are stuck in their ways, And, um so that is for me. That's a really, really, really challenging aspect of it. And I think it's worth putting that challenge out there and just saying, OK, you guys who've been [00:11:00] around for a while sometimes you actually have to take your heads out of the sand and actually look around a little bit and go, OK, what I do is really great for my part of the community, but I can also use that strength and use that use that use what I've developed over time to help a broad the broader community, and to show that we're you know, that we we can all work together and, um so that's a challenge that I'm quite happy to put out there. [00:11:30] I guess. One of the issues for um, a person that had has run a successful event over many years and then coming into pride would be that, um, you know, is pride going to be around next year? Is it sustainable? Yeah, Well, it's it's a good question. Um, a lot of it depends on on council support and council funding, and, um, that the council is prepared to acknowledge that we are a large We're a significant community within the within the mainstream [00:12:00] community and that, um, we deserve to have our own festival and to have that supported by our civic leaders. And it seems that they are finally realising this and, um, I, I do hope that that continues. I think that for an inaugural festival, we've proven that, um, there is a real need and a real desire for this community to engage, um, with itself, but also to provide colour and fun and vibrancy and, um, quality [00:12:30] and cultural cultural realness to the broader community that that that community can participate and experience as well. So, um, is it sustainable? Well, hopefully we'll see. I mean, I'm certainly not. I wouldn't have engaged in this if I thought it was a shot in the dark. Once off, I'm really not interested in that. Um I'm interested in particularly this year, creating a template that, um can be used as [00:13:00] that will help to future pride festival organisers. Um, to do what I'm doing this year. Uh, I think that's really important. I mean, I've had to create everything from scratch this year, and that makes, um, the job really, really, really hard. So, uh, if I leave anything as a result of this year's festival, I hope that it is, um, some templates and some systems and some sort of process that will help future pride festival organisers. Are you aware [00:13:30] of kind of up and coming, um, organise type people that that that do this kind of thing? Yes and no. Is the answer to that question? Um, I've worked with a lot of, uh, a lot of young gay and lesbian people who have an interest in organising events over the years. The sad reality for me around that is that the very best of them have left New Zealand. Um, and, uh, for the most part, are living in Australia now, Um, and so [00:14:00] Yeah, it's It's a that's a big That's a big question is OK. I need to create a system whereby I can actually engage young people, um, in a formal way to train them to get them experienced. Um, in putting this kind of event together so that when I am well and truly rinsed out and exhausted, which shouldn't [00:14:30] take too long, um that they can take take that over and run with that, and I will always be there to support them. But, um, it's really, really important that, um that those that those people are coming through, I and, um, and are challenging me for the role. And, um, maybe perhaps making me up my game a little bit. Um, pushing me a little bit further would be really, really, really cool. Um, but yes, there is a vacuum there at the moment, and it's a vacuum that I'm particularly keen [00:15:00] to see. Um, filled. Can we just go through, um, some of the events now in the in the in the Pride Festival, because, I mean, there are so many things happening, and I'm guessing the the first thing would be the gala. The first thing is the gala. Um and I've been working with, uh, very George and Lisa Prager on this event. Um, they were actually the producers of the first, uh, hero gala many, many years ago at Sky City. Uh, which they did a fantastic [00:15:30] job of, um, so I thought, OK, well, let's bring in some old hands. It's the first year back. So, um, I think they would be an excellent choice to work with. Um and this particular event is also the interesting thing for me is that it's hosted by Sam Johnson. Um, he's an absolutely remarkable young man. He was the leader of the Christchurch Student Volunteer Army. He's the current young New Zealander of the year. Um, and he's an out and proud young gay man. And, um, I'm really honoured to have him [00:16:00] opening the festival. Um, it's just nice to put a very youthful face out front. Um, and a face of the future, I think, in the gala itself is the smallest board of stuff we can expect in the in the It's a really good description. It's a It's the best of the fest. Absolutely. It's, um, it's a tasting and a sampling of, um, all of the best stuff. So, um yeah, it's a cool event and the kind of ratio between, like, established acts and maybe some newer performers. What? What? What is that like? Because, obviously, you've got Mika here from [00:16:30] so will be doing the big Maori opening. Um, because he's very much a status these days, and he will, um, he'll smack me in the head for saying that, but he'll do the big opening, and then the mayor hopefully will be, uh, doing his official opening of the festival as well. And then it goes into a broad range of acts everything from the sort of really established and, um, some acts from overseas as well from Australia. Um, right through to the more, more community style, um, things, [00:17:00] segments that represent the parade which involve people that aren't necessarily used to being on a stage. But, um, Lisa and Verity are really, really good at, um, directing and organising these these these smaller pieces within the SMS board. Um and, um, yeah, so it's It's a it's right across the board. Really? What about some of the theatre works that that are happening? Well, for me, one of the ones That's most exciting is black faggot, Um, which [00:17:30] is Victor Rogers piece. And, um, when I first heard about this, I thought, My God, this has to be in the festival. It's really, really exciting. He started writing this piece, uh, way back when destiny Church was doing the enough is enough marches. And he started writing a series of monologues, Um, as a response to that. And then when the marriage equality bill, um, came up, it was kind of an impetus for him to finish the piece off. And so it kind of it's a series of monologues that spans that kind of decade. [00:18:00] Um, but particularly focused as a response to, um, the Pacific Island Church and the Pacific island community And how they deal with, uh, with gay and que queer issues. Um, which is often, um, really fraught. Um, so it's a very hard hitting piece, and I think it's a very culturally important piece, very. And I'm really proud to have it within the festival. Another performance in here is, uh, Poly Fuller. I saw in Wellington a year or so ago, uh, which is a really fantastic [00:18:30] show. Well, Polly's, um, Polly's one of our most interesting drag performers. She is obviously a Wellington and a New Zealand icon, and, um then she's travelled over to Australia and she's become, um, quite established in Melbourne in particular. And, um, the interesting thing with Polly is how that she can. She extends her drag outside of the sort of the norm of of lip synching or nightclub shows. And, um, she is able to do fully fledged cabaret [00:19:00] shows and fully fledged theatre shows. Um, and really take her art form to another level. Um, and I've always sort of relished working with her on and that from that perspective, so really, really, really happy to have, um, Polly in the festival. There's a whole range of venues that these things are on at, and, um, that's quite nice. It's kind of peppered right the way around the kind of central Auckland area. Yeah, there's actually a map at the back of the programme that shows you how far the festival travels [00:19:30] and it travels everywhere from It's obviously well, it get. It centres a lot on Ponsonby and on K Road, which is, I think, a natural place for, um the queer communities to centre on. But then it spreads right the way out to Henderson out west, um, out into Mount Albert and then all the way, Sort of, um, out into the gulf and, uh, over to Waiheke Island. So the it just it kind of shows you that, um, gay people [00:20:00] are everywhere and that they're they want to engage and express themselves in their own local areas. And, um, for me, that's fantastic. It really speaks volumes about, um, the strength of our communities within Auckland. So was that a conscious decision to have the venues in in very diverse areas rather than kind of trying to pull it all together? It kind of just It kind of worked out that way. That's the natural way that it happened. But, um, for me, it's a real bonus because, um, you know, out West Henderson, Sometimes those [00:20:30] places, they have a bit of a reputation as being, you know, one of the more redneck areas of Auckland. And it's just not the case. It's, um they are as embracing of parts of our community out there as we are in the inner city. Um, and Auckland is very much a cosmopolitan place these days. So it's a reflection of that, really. One of the other things that strikes me just looking through the programme is that the ticket prices are actually quite reasonable when it comes to like, if if you're going to a mainstream theatre production, you're talking maybe 35 [00:21:00] $40. Um, we're here. We're looking at about $2025. It's I think it's, um, sensible and important in this day and age. I think that the reality of the economy at the moment is that, um, people are financially stretched, and, um, we want to make it as easy as possible for them to engage in their festival. Um, so, yeah, that's an important aspect of it. The other thing is, out of those, um, 60 different events within the festival. 20 of them are free. Um, and [00:21:30] I think that that's, uh, that's a really interesting statistic as well. What are some of the free events? Um, gosh, everything from the big day out, um, through to a range of, uh, art exhibitions. And there's, uh, a movie night. Uh, Priscilla, queen of the desert has been done in silo cinema down in the quarter. Um, there's a whole range of lesbian walks and, gosh, this dog shows And there's a huge range of stuff that that's free and that people can engage [00:22:00] in at no cost. What is the dog show? Because you mentioned it a couple of times. Yeah, that's, um that's something that Stephen Oates and I started talking about and working on. Um, I'm a bit of a cat freak myself. So the dog thing a bit sort of alien to me. But, um, Stephen is, uh has his has his I mean, his dog Ruby is the sort of surrogate partner in his life. And, um so he's really big on on dogs and wanted to do something in that way. So we developed that, and we got a sponsor on board for it. [00:22:30] And, um, it's looking like it'll be a really real. It's actually on the last day of the festival, and it's looking like it's a hell of a fun way to finish things up. Very camp. What has it been like trying to get sponsorship for for the various events? It's the most difficult aspect of, uh, festival production at this stage. Um, just in this particular year. Uh, the as I said, the economy is is tight, and that's tight for companies in terms of their ability to invest, [00:23:00] um, in sponsorship and in partnerships and engaging with communities in ways that are a little bit, um, you know, less tangible. Um, so, yeah, it's been difficult, but we've, you know, we've we've got some really staunch supporters out there, um, who have come on board. Companies like ACON 28 black, um, the new energy drink have been absolutely fantastic in their support and have put their hands into their pockets, um, to support our community. [00:23:30] Um, and that's been that's been really amazing. Highlights on the cabaret performance. Do you have any highlights that you want to? Um well, it's always a highlight. Working with Mika, Um, he's got salami, um, at, uh, switch bar, which is Wayne Clark's new venue on Kang Happy Road. And, um, that's, uh, the sort of typical atypical, um, melange of, um, sexiness. Um Then there's also gobsmacked, which is coming over from Australia. Um, [00:24:00] that's Jamie Burgess, who's an expat kiwi who's moved to Australia and his cabaret partner, Nicky Aitkin. And they're bringing their show back to back to New Zealand. So really happy to have that, um, within the festival, there's also one night only which, um is buckwheat and testicle, which is actually a piece that I developed with them. Oh, about maybe 12 to 18 months ago. And we did it as part of late at the Auckland Museum. And it's [00:24:30] a behind the scenes kind of wigs off kind of, um, exploration of their particular Pacific and Maori House of drag in Auckland, which has been a very iconic house of drag in Auckland. It's included everybody from the great beer, um, to the late great um, Bus Stop and Bay slut. Um, and it's been a really a heart of drag in Auckland for, you know, 20 years. And so it's a look [00:25:00] back, a candid look back at how how that came about And, um, and and what that entails. So it's a really interesting piece, that one and just a short jump from cabaret to music, you've got quite a selection of of kind of musical performances going on. Um, tell me about some of them. Gosh. Um, well, it's great to have girls in the mix. They're performing at the Auckland Art Gallery, Um, the gay and lesbian singers. And they're actually celebrating a, um they're celebrating a big birthday of [00:25:30] the gallery itself, so that's quite cool. And that's free as well. Yes, that's free. Um, here is out west. It's lovely to have sissy and the ladies, um, involved, um, in the festival. Marie Sheehan is back on the scene and releasing a new album. Great to have her. The Johnny, um, are doing two gigs and they're also performing at here out west. They're a, um, all girl all Johnny Cash Group from Nelson. So that's, um that's kind of quirky, and they're really, really cool. So really, um, into [00:26:00] having them. And then one piece that I helped develop quite early on with Samuel Holloway, um, is after Lilburn, which is an exploration of New Zealand, uh, classical composers, Uh, right the way from Douglas Lilburn. Um, right the way through Jack Body Gareth far, um, and Samuel Holloway himself and then into an even younger generation than Samuel. So it's a bit of a timeline of gay, uh, composers, um, [00:26:30] from Douglas. Little through till today, and I think it might. I think it's probably the only the first time that, um that has been explored thematically. Um, and I think it's important that it is. I think that's a really important piece within the festival. It's an important acknowledgement of, um, the impact that, uh, gay composers have had on New Zealand music. I'm just wondering how you get your head around organising all of these different types of events. You know, going [00:27:00] from music to theatre to cabaret. They've all got very specific needs and and and wants how how do you do it? Um, I kind of do it naturally. I I guess I have a broad range of interest. And, um, like I said, I really like the diversity. I think that the I think that the diversity is what makes our community really interesting rather than the homogenization. So for me, being able to shed light on [00:27:30] the really different niches and nooks and crannies, um, of our communities, that's the joy for me, really looking forward to some of these group exhibitions. Visual exhibitions you've got here. Yeah, that's one of the That's, um, a programming aspect that I'm quite proud of because I've managed to pull those exhibitions all into one particular, um, area down the Kanga happy road end of Ponsonby Road. And so, um, there's, I think, four [00:28:00] exhibitions and, um, and one, large projection installation, and they're all within walking distance of each other. So people who who have an interest in visual arts, um can actually get around and spend an afternoon or a morning, Um, exploring all these different exhibitions without having to get into the car and go anywhere. Um, which I think is a real positive. When you were approaching these artists, what was the response in terms of being part of a a pride festival? Um, well, some of some of [00:28:30] these ones have come to me and others. I've approached, um, generally just really positive, really happy to be involved and, um, really eager to have been approached and that somebody's actually offering them a format that they can plug into, Um, because you know you often you need to accept that artists aren't often event organisers that they it's a very rare artist. Um, who is really good at the production management side of things as [00:29:00] well. Um, so to provide them with a platform and with AAA and the exhibitions case a space that they can work with. And, um, they're only too happy to get stuck in. And, uh, and, um, express themselves. You also have, uh, quite a number of events. Uh, in the the kind of dialogue and debate area. Um, tell me about some of those. Uh, well, a couple of them are the New Zealand Society of Authors. Um, coming forward with a couple [00:29:30] of events, uh, exploring, um, gay and lesbian writers and, um one, which is a debate in which they're exploring the relevance of, um, relevance of all blacks as New Zealand cultural icons to our communities and so that that's, uh, no doubt going to be an interesting one. on the debate front, there's also, um, the Great Auckland Pride debate, which Stephen Oates and Paul Rose have pulled together. And, um, that is [00:30:00] putting the two sort of, um, grand dames of, um Well, I shouldn't say that they're a bit young for that, Um maybe of New Zealand politics, um, together, which is, uh, Nikki Kaye and Jacinda Ardern, who are both representatives for Auckland City and who both sort of do battle on an on an election front. Um, putting them together to debate, um, queer issues in a fun way, um, with their own panels as well. So that that'll be an interesting event. [00:30:30] And one that's just caught my eye is the, uh, the the lesbian Heritage walk by the Charlotte Museum. Yes, that's, uh, something that Miriam Sofia came forward with. And, um, it's something that she has done previously as part of the Auckland Heritage Festival. Um, so she was only too happy to bring that into a a sort of pride context. So that'll be, Yeah, that's a really, really cool and unique event as well, and then moving on to sport and recreation. And there are a number of things that are kind of out and about to me, some about some of those. Well, at one stage, I did put a call out saying [00:31:00] it would be nice if we had some gay men who wanted to engage in some sporting events because they're all women at the moment. Um, but we we've ended up with a variety, um, that incorporates, uh, women's softball. A tennis tournament. Um, there's Auckland cycle Pride is something that I've developed with, um, board member, um, Christopher Dempsey. And that is a very sort of positive, healthy, um, cycling parade in a way that will travel on the day of the big day, out from [00:31:30] the Auckland Museum and along Ponsonby Road and Road and all the way out to Coyle Park and wind up at the big Gay out. So that's a really cool event, and one that I hope will grow over time. And then there's also the fairy flotilla, um, which is a group of gay and lesbian Boies who are getting together to farewell the Amsterdam um, gay cruises that's departing from, uh, departing from down in Prince's Wharf on the 20th of February [00:32:00] as it heads off to Mardi Gras. So they're actually going to go out on Mass and all of their boats and, um, farewell them and then meet up for a bit of a bit of a party around the corner. So, um, that's a really cool event, too. Speaking of parties, one of your big things is organising the the last dance party. How's that going? Amazingly, um, that it's something that personally excites me because I've, you know, I've got a bit of a history with regards to producing sort of epic gay dance parties, I guess. And, um, this one is certainly [00:32:30] poised to be epic as well. It's the interesting thing with this one is the venue, um, which is the the beautiful and historic Victoria Park Market. And the courtyard has just been fully renovated, so it's looking absolutely stunning. Now, as part of those renovations, um, Pack and Company have created two large bars, sort of at the top end of the markets. Uh, LA, um which is a big New York loft style, um, bar with a huge deck off the back of it. Um, that sort of comes out [00:33:00] over the courtyard. And then there's libertine, which is a really, really gosh beautiful and quirky and alternative space. Um, and they just they have. They've spent a lot of money on these spaces. They're absolutely stunning. So being able to combine those with the big Victoria Park courtyard through internal staircases for the first time, um, is like a an opportunity I was not going to back away from, um the other thing that Victoria Park has come forward with is because it's still [00:33:30] being renovated. There's a whole floor of, uh, of a building in there that is kind of gutted, and it's all sort of concrete and rough and raw and like a bunker with pillars everywhere. It's huge. And, um, they've said that I can use that as well. So that's going to put a big, hard, fast and heavy dance floor in there. And that will be sort of going back to the sort of early kind of really rough garage rave type feeling, um, so it's great to be able to bring something like that into the party [00:34:00] as well, as well as the kind of sort of high end, um, glamour that's going on in the lira and libertine bars. And then you've got the courtyard with the huge chimney, which is going to be lit up in rainbow colours and, um, a large stage at the bottom of it with, um, community performances, um, by everybody from test tickle and the, uh, South Auckland vogan girls who are amazing, um, through to Christopher, who was a semifinalist in New Zealand's got talent this year, [00:34:30] and the amazing Miss Floss, who from queer who is a fantastic performer. And all of her, um, sort of of girlie burlesque artists. That's the big girly show. That one. That'll be really cool. So, um, we're, like, a week and a bit out from when pride starts less than that. We We are about six days away from the gala right now. So if this interview is a little incoherent, you'll just I apologise. I was gonna ask, How are you feeling? Um, [00:35:00] mentally. Ok, um, physically, a little bit exhausted. Um, getting the sort of physical reality of getting 30,000 programmes out around the city and around the country, um is, uh, an exhausting actuality. Um, but we've done it and, um, you know, So you're trying to do that You're trying to market the other shows you're trying to deal with the huge sort of online need for marketing these days. Um, and all [00:35:30] of the other sort of requirements and requests, so it's physically quite exhausting, but, um, we're getting We're getting there for you. How do you judge whether this festival is a success or not? Can you ask me that after the festival? Um, I guess to a degree for me. It already is. And in the in the way that people have engaged with it. Um, [00:36:00] and just in in getting that programme onto the streets and looking at the diversity that's within it and the quality that's within it. Um, yeah, that that that is a an an early sign of the festival's success. Obviously, the other sign will be how many people actually engage, um, and and actively participate through the festival while it's on. Um, but we won't know that until afterwards. Um, the parade is one of the most interesting aspects of that in terms of the numbers that actually [00:36:30] show up for that. And, um, and how it goes. So, um, we'll have to wait and see. Why do you think things like pride are important? Um, I just think that it's, you know, we're a grown up community now, and, um, we deserve a a sort of grown up festival that, um reflects and explores who we are like any other. Um, part of the community does, and I think that pride is, um is a way of doing that. And, you know, there's also there's all [00:37:00] the important aspects around, um dealing with issues around the around, homophobia around sort of youth, suicide and, um, helping young people with self esteem around their gay or lesbian. Um, I think that those issues remain and they're really, really important to address. Um, it's a really good way for organisations like the New Zealand AIDS Foundation to, um, engage [00:37:30] with the community off the back of of these kinds of things as well. And if we if we all work together and um if it's an you know, examples are the fact that you know, the NZAF has been really successful with the Get it on big day out for, I think, 14 years now and so to bring that in under the umbrella, to bring heroic gardens and under the Pride umbrella to bring New Zealand Bear Week under the Pride umbrella. By working together, we actually create a stronger and more cohesive and more healthy community [00:38:00] for everybody.

IRN: 1225
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rnz_huhana_hickey.html
ATL REF: 
ATL URL: 
TITLE: Huhana Hickey
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Huhana Hickey
INTERVIEWER: Kathryn Ryan
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Huhana Hickey; Kathryn Ryan; Māori; Radio New Zealand; Radio New Zealand National; Taranaki; activism; disability; disability rights; external resource; social justice
DATE: 24 June 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Huhana Hickey talks to Kathryn Ryan about indigenous disabled human rights and social justice advocacy.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Our next guest has a PhD in law from Waikato University. This was something that was never on her radar when she left her high school in Taranaki with no qualifications and what seemed to be then limited prospects, Doctor Huana Hicky has ended up with a BA, a masters in law with distinction and a PD. It's not been easy along the way. Doctor Hickie has lived with a progressive neuromuscular condition, which has resulted in her using a wheelchair for 16 years. She's also raised uh, two sons, had several surgeries [00:00:30] and has found out about her Maori heritage only only after meeting her birth mother as an adult. Dr Hua Hi is now a lawyer in Auckland with a particular interest in representing people with disabilities. She's on the Human Rights Review Tribunal and has her own consultancy, which does research on indigenous disabled human rights and social justice. Advocacy. I spoke to recently and I began by asking her about her early life. She was adopted into a family in Taranaki but not told [00:01:00] of her Maori heritage. It was an interesting one because I was told that I was adopted from a very early age I knew, and I even knew when my sister was born 3. 5 years later that I was adopted. So I always knew I was adopted. But I never knew my ethnicity. And at what point did you become aware of it? When I met my birth mother at the age of 24 I just, uh you know, I saw her and my father, actually, my birth father and mom. They married, and I saw them at the hotel. They came from Australia, and [00:01:30] she was as black as they were. And I just had a big grin on my face. I knew Had you ever suspected in your younger life my entire life, I felt so different. I felt a link to Maori. I really did. But I didn't know what that meant. And so I didn't, uh, go and seek help or go and join them, because I always felt I couldn't because I wasn't officially Maori. But I always wanted to, and, uh, back then, you know, we had an entirely different way. How we did things. So, you know, I sort of stuck on [00:02:00] the outside. Really? There was no evidence of it on on your birth certificate or anything that was all falsified. Um, back then, if you were a white baby, they often falsified the documents. So you didn't go through the Ministry of Maori Affairs. And in in doing that, it meant that there was less paperwork, less hassle. So they lied and said that my mother was a European and that my father was a European, um, as well. And, uh, basically did that. And that way, then they could say that I was a baby and and the, [00:02:30] um, decision was made By whom? The decision to do that. The doctors, uh, the whoever it was that signed those papers. And I would say it was the doctors and the adoption agencies back then because we're talking in the early 19 sixties, I'd hate to give my age away, but we're talking in the early 19 sixties when it was common practise. It's It's remarkable, though, because I've not I've not been familiar of it. Forgive me. It's a matter of ignorance. It's something we associate with other other countries. Well, you know, we are a stolen generation, but we've [00:03:00] never talked about it, and, uh, you know, There are some researchers that have happened around Maori and adoption, but no one's ever really talked about the mucking around basically of our documentation. And I mean, I can prove it. I've got the original birth certificate and I've got the adoption birth certificates and they all say, a Caucasian baby to Caucasian parents. Has this become a matter of significance to you? Obviously. And we'll come back to meeting meeting your birth parents. That is a huge event in anyone's life. But [00:03:30] subsequent to that have these circumstances become a matter for you? Uh, well, they affected how I was as a teenager, but also we've got a group taking a class action through the Waitangi Tribunal, and we're hoping that we can raise it more and more. We've got a lot of foster and adoption stories that show that there was some stuff that was going down. That was a breach of the treaty and denied many of us our access and our rights as Maori to have treaty rights. Basically, is it as simple as documentation being [00:04:00] altered or stories being told that did not allow you to know your cultural heritage? It is I mean, they wiped out our past. They tried to, uh, for some. They did. Some people will never know who their real parents were. And some of us are lucky enough by some fortune, it was It was actually quite a mystery how I found my mom, But, um, that was by some strange fate that I managed to find her. But many of the adoptees of my age group, they they don't know who [00:04:30] they are, and they never will. What were the circumstances Where you came to meet your birth mother? Well, I actually put an ad in the in the New Zealand Herald at the time, and she was living in Australia with Dad and my siblings. But I, I actually knew, um, her first name through the original adoption, Um, the original birth certificate. And so I put the ad in and said that this is what I knew. And my grandmother saw it. And she contacted my mother and they contacted [00:05:00] me. And then I got the chance to meet her when my son was three months old. How did you know of the original birth certificate? Was this you doing your own investigation? And this is how you found out it had been falsified. I found my original adoption, uh, information. When Dad worked at social welfare, pre computers and I he got me a job there to help, Um, the filing system set it all up. And I actually found my original papers. No photo copy machines back then. So I didn't even steal them. But I looked at them, [00:05:30] and, uh, they weren't very nice papers. They they actually weren't very good. And I bet they've They've gotten rid of them since, um, but I found my original, um, birth certificate there. And that's how I got that info. Did those papers say things that you found offensive? Very offensive. Um, basically, they listed me as an imbecile and an idiot and said that I would never achieve very much at all. So now I understand why mom and Dad treated me. They They were good parents, but they never expected me to achieve anything. And [00:06:00] now I know why you're not an embassy. Clearly. Well, sadly, they both died before I could prove to them that, but, uh, no, I part of my journey and part of my, um I'm quite a strong willed person. So I was determined that I was going to get an education and I managed to get it. And, uh so I did. And I proved that I'm far from any of that. But then I don't believe any human being is an imbecile and an idiot. Anyway, I was speaking. I I'm sure you appreciate with [00:06:30] an irony, but did you have some, uh, disabilities? Perhaps that caused the experts of the day to reach that conclusion. I was born a month premature, which, back in, uh, the early sixties was a, uh, difficult, uh, diagnosis, because back then, they didn't have the drugs that they have to pump the babies up and keep them in the womb as long as they can. And often they have the drugs now to pump the lungs and keep them. Well, Well, I was born a month early, and I had lung problems and, uh, you know, I, I coughed [00:07:00] up a lot of blood as a child, so I had bronchial lung problems which have gone further in my adulthood. But, uh, certainly nothing of any other significance that we know of through those teens. We must come back and meet your birth mother with you soon if you would. But through those teens, you said you believed the situation you're in even unwittingly and not knowing it at the time affected you what was happening in your teens. Well, I was also undiagnosed AD, D and, uh, you know, [00:07:30] I. I didn't do well at school. I was average, but I couldn't do maths. I was dyscalculia, you know, I. I couldn't, um I was a great speller, but then I had trouble with words and stuff, which is different now, Uh, I grew out of that, but, um, I just couldn't fit in anywhere. And my behaviour was such that I was always getting into trouble, you know? And I just, uh, just couldn't understand what was going on with me because I didn't know what was happening. And, you know, people couldn't understand what was going on. So [00:08:00] we we just had behavioural issues between my my adoptive family and myself. You leave school without, um, much by the way of qualifications And what do you What do you do? I went off. I left at 15. I went and took up jobs. Uh, I had been holding down a paper job till I was 18 and I started working part time from the age of 11. And back then, of course, they didn't tax you as kids, but, uh, I I just got jobs. I worked in a shoe shop. I worked on a farm. I just took whatever jobs were available. You had jobs [00:08:30] back then. That was the difference. You were a junior. You got a job as a junior in the shop or wherever, and you got paid the Apprentice or junior rate and, uh, you know, and and at least I built up skills. But I, I didn't have a problem quitting one job and going straight into another job. Whereas today, most youth can't do that all the time. You are wanting to know more about your birth parents. And as you say, by 24 you take out this ad and again circumstances come together and the contact [00:09:00] comes from your grandmother. First of all, that must be just an indescribable moment to know what was gonna happen. Well, it was because they were told that I was dying and that I would be dead. And so Mom believed that I that I had passed away. She had just lost her brother. Um, he died. He was drowned three days after I was born. And, um, so she was the oldest in the family. And Nana then suffered, you know, a breakdown. And so they they believed that they were leaving me at the hospital to be cared for until I passed away, you know? And so [00:09:30] the the the lies that went down was both sides, the lies to my adopted family and the lies to my birth family. And so nobody was looking for me. And when Nana was reading the paper, she saw it. And, uh, of course, she contacted my mom straight away, Who contacted me, and, uh, they were in shock as much as I was in shock, but it was very easy that they found me. Can you possibly explain what the moment was like when you met for each of you? Well, I guess, um, for me, the memory of it was [00:10:00] I can just remember a big grin on my face that finally I realised that I was some colour. I didn't know what it was, um, but I knew that I wasn't I didn't feel pakeha. And, um, you know, I didn't feel any of that. I felt, um I just felt disconnected. And then there was a connection coming in II. I wrote a poem years later about, um, you know, the jigsaw puzzle coming together that little pieces were slowly filling up, and one of those was that I met my birth mother, [00:10:30] but at the same time, I met my birth father and I met a baby brother of mine, and I was just overwhelming it. It was a bit much, you know, I live with depression have done since I was 11 years of age, and it was a bit much, and I think it happened very fast and probably too fast. And I was on my own, and I probably should have had support or there should have been some form of preparation for this. But there's nobody out there that prepares you for this type of thing. There is now. But there wasn't. Then you had your own boy your own child by then [00:11:00] as well. I did. And he was born 7. 5 weeks early. So he was a very sick baby, and I was busy dealing with him and, uh, healing from I I went to. So I had a caesarean and I was just healing from all of that when I met them. So you can imagine it was everything happening at once? Were you able over time to forge a relationship with them? It was difficult. It took another 12 years. We we tried. It just wasn't working. Uh, I guess in some ways I didn't [00:11:30] I didn't know them. And they tried to fit me into the family as though I was one of their Children that had been brought up by them. But I wasn't. And so I, I guess I disappointed them. They disappointed me, and it spent 12 years. They they disappeared. They were travellers. They used to take up catering jobs in the outback of, um, Western Australia. And they made a lot of money that way. But, you know, they travelled a lot, and I lost contact with them. Uh, it wasn't until 2006 that, [00:12:00] uh, no 2000 and and three. I think that she contacted my adoptive mom, who was still alive then and mum rang me and said Look, I, I don't know if you want this, but she gave me the phone number and we touched base again. By that time, I'm a lot older, And I guess, you know, I I'd done a lot of healing in myself and a lot of work on myself, so I was able to hand it. But by that time I also learned that she had cancer and she was dying. And, um, I managed to get over and see her in Adelaide in 2006. [00:12:30] I think it was when, um, I just I had to go to Korea, and, uh, it was on my way back from Korea I. I took a tiki tour and spent 10 days with her and my father and my baby brother. So she got her last chance again, to which she clearly wanted to do. And in a way, it helped her because she kept apologising. And I just told her that there was nothing to apologise for. It was a thing that happened at a time that they often removed babies from young women. And, uh, I just told her [00:13:00] it was OK and we healed And, you know, I managed to talk to her on the phone right up until about the time she died. No, Sorry. No, it was it was hard. But you know it. It was it was also, um, meant to be. I'm glad that it happened. It happened as it was meant to. There needed to be a lot of healing in your life. There's there's been a fair few challenges on many fronts. Um, but what you certainly did determine was that you would pursue this university education. It had to wait a good [00:13:30] time. When when did it happen? I was 31 and I moved to Hamilton. I was accepted. I. I got out of the nursing programme. They wouldn't let me finish because, um, I was on a walking stick. I was on a stick by the end, and I was having problems with my neurological system. But we didn't know what was going on of the way before, and they they wouldn't let. I was grew up in Taranaki, and Mom worked at Ivan Watkins down, and it could have been the effect of the dioxin. We don't know, um, because we grew [00:14:00] up by um um by Tutu. And, uh, so, you know, it could have been, um but they wouldn't let me finish my last year of nursing, and I wanted a qualification. So I applied at a university, and I got in at and, uh, I discovered there that I did have a brain and I was coming up with a and Bs, and I was very proud. I think I got three a in my first year and two bs and I had had eight operations, one a major, one a hysterectomy. And yet I still managed to achieve those goals. [00:14:30] LLM bachelor Master of laws with distinction PhD in law and I. I did an LLMBX and then, uh, sorry BB I and then a LLM with distinction and PhD in there. Um, have there been, um, some personal aspect to your research, For example, your PD Oh, definitely. Once. Once I was able to actually do my own self study, which you can do from about level four [00:15:00] of law. I started writing about human rights and social justice, and I had Margaret Wilson and Margaret bed there, and they were brilliant mentors, wonderful women who taught me a lot about social justice, and I was quite keen. And my disabilities by that stage in 96 I ended up in a wheelchair, uh, through a beating from an ex partner. And, um, also, the neurological stuff was getting worse. And I was still, um, passionate because one thing I was finding as I got involved with the disability [00:15:30] community around 93 around that time, um, as it was growing, I was noticing that mainstream disabled were getting the voice and were getting the changes happening. But Maori disabled weren't. So I wanted to understand why, and I was highly political. But Maori disabled didn't even use the word disability. And so I had to learn why. And I did. I found out why, and that was what my PhD was about. I had to learn about this group and what it was that they needed to happen [00:16:00] to close the gap, I found out 44 Maori with disabilities. You did talk to as part of this research and and in some ways, did they open up to you because you were You were in a wheelchair coming to see them. Uh, did that make them, uh share more than they would have, perhaps with someone else. They A lot of them begged me not to give up on the journey that I'm doing because they said that they needed help. They needed their voice to be heard and that they felt that society [00:16:30] had forgotten them, that they don't know them. Um, there's a colleague and I are trying to find the funding to do a research on the poverty levels of disabled Maori in Northland because it's a It's an area that, um, my partner comes from, and one that I've seen a lot of deep poverty, but I've also seen the resilience that they hold. Maori don't tend to ask for help, don't tend to get access to the equipment, but they're one of the most resilient peoples I've ever met, and yet they struggle and they [00:17:00] struggle. But as a group, if they are connected with their, they are actually an amazing group of working together, like, you know, a collective working together to help that disabled member, and they work together for that. When you say you found out why, there seemed to be, uh, a greater response, uh, for mainstream to use to use the word, um, people with disabilities. But then, um, when you looked at Maori people with disabilities as a group, they were things were different. Have you have you? Have you just given me the [00:17:30] reasons, Or was there another reason? Well, for myself, I, I mean I, I was able to access the political world. I mean, I had a lot of networks of politicians, et cetera, and so it wasn't a problem for me personally, But the thing that I was finding is I had friends that were dying, um, where they would not be told that they had, uh, they were in a wheelchair. They wouldn't be told that they had lung cancer until six months later, and then it was too late for treatment. And one friend in particular, [00:18:00] um, I nursed her until the last day of her of her life, and, um, she was an amazing woman. She had so much potential. And yet Waikato Hospital just did not, uh, do the diagnosis in time. But I found that a lot of Maori were not getting the diagnosis or the treatments happening, and they're being treated second class, basically in our health system. But a lot of it is that they have a fear of the hospitals, because at the hospitals you die. Do they not push for information [00:18:30] the way other people might push? No, they don't. One thing I found I had a partner with, um a child with autism and the school, Um, he was he would be a biter. And when he was little and he struggled, if kids, uh, would tease him and hurt him, then he he'd hit back. But the the kids knew to be devious, but he didn't know that. So if the headmaster said, Did you hit somebody, he'd just say yes. And of course, And then he'd get into trouble. And when his mom tried to sort [00:19:00] it out, uh, the the headmaster abused her. And so she went really, really shy. Got very embarrassed. And she therefore didn't chase it up. She actually did what she had to do to get her son's education, but she didn't go further. And no, they don't. They don't. You know, there's many that don't and and often if they do, they get angry with aggression, or they get or they take it out on themselves or they take it out on others. And, you know, Sam, [00:19:30] uh isn't a good example. I mean, that man was driven into extreme poverty because of the system, not listening to him and not recognising the need. And he got driven to the point where he he, you know, in his wheelchair goes up and he hits the windows of work and income to show his frustration. But as a result, they found out that he wasn't being paid $100 a week. He was short, short changed. And so it all got fixed up. But it took that to do it. I'm speaking to Doctor Hanna Hick. She is a lawyer in Auckland with particular [00:20:00] interest in representing people with disabilities. She's also on the Human Rights Review Tribunal and has her own consultancy, which does research on indigenous disabled human rights and social justice. Advocacy. You're listening to Radio New Zealand National, and that brings us very much to the work that you do do and it appears needed. The if there are people who do not push the system and advocate for themselves as much as others might. Obviously there's a lot of work for you. Well, I started out. [00:20:30] Really, Um I was at, uh, Wake Prison, and I built up a reputation of working with the disabled prisoners there and helping them with their parole hearings, because what I was finding is that the medical team were lying, and I actually caught them out at one point and managed to take the evidence to the parole board and managed to get this poor man out who was just in extreme pain and suffering, and he was never going to be a danger to society. But, uh, they kept him in there simply because they didn't do their job. And, you know, and [00:21:00] I also managed to get, you know, I managed to help quite a few there that were developing quite bad pressure sores and other areas of being abused and not being treated properly. You know? OK, if you do the crime, you do the time. But you've got to have a humane, uh, situation where they are. And that that just wasn't happening. So I managed to work with a few of them. Then I came to Auckland, worked at Auckland Disability Law. We were overwhelmed within a very short time. And it was just ongoing cases of abuse, ongoing [00:21:30] cases of neglect, cases where people couldn't speak for themselves, but they felt safe by having someone like myself speak on their behalf. And, uh so a lot of it was advocacy. Um, very seldom took it to court, But, um, I did have some sad cases of autistic adults going before the court system and not understanding it and the court system not treating them very well. But we do have a system that doesn't really meet the needs of disabled. Is there more work to do than than you and others [00:22:00] working in, uh, as specialists? If I can put it that way in this area, uh, than you can do? There's a mountain of work to do there. There's heaps. We we have no shortcoming of a need and with the way with the changes with the legal aid system, the changes of the insecurities of funding for community law centres, I sit on the Community Law Centre Association board. Um, you know, they've had been secured for two years, but no increase in funding. And yet, uh, [00:22:30] you know, we're trying or AD is trying to go nationwide to be able to be a voice for disabled throughout the country. And yet they can't get the funding. You know, increased to do that. You know, there there's a whole bunch of issues out there around disability and and their needs. I do communication in the Moco courts of learning disabled youth that come up on criminal charges. We need people to give them a voice. I act almost like a A language interpreter. I. I interpret the big language of the lawyers and the judge, Judge [00:23:00] and I. I break it down for them so that they understand what they're going through. And a lot of people end up getting done under the Intellectual Disability Compulsory Care and Rehabilitation Act. The I DC CNR because they don't have lawyers that understand that they do have capacity if they're learning disabled. But what is happening is they need to have time to understand and a way of understanding what's happening around them. And that's not done housing another great passion. [00:23:30] And I know also that you went out with one of the local authorities, the Auckland mayor, I think to, uh, find out how much, Uh, there was a gap between accessible buildings and reality. What happened there? Well, we challenged the council, the CEO, the CC OS and the mayor that new buildings were being built that were still not meeting our needs. And yet they talked about Auckland being the most livable city in the country and or in the world. Really? And so we challenged him, [00:24:00] and, uh, we took him to places. And as it happens, uh, they got stuck in a lift And the only lift that, um, that disabled could use to get into the telecom building, which you have to go up a steep hill to. And if you're in a manual wheelchair, that's really not easy. He had to get into this tiny little lift which wouldn't fit me and my service dog. I'd have to put him on my lap. And, uh, that was the only way you could get in and, you know, and it just showed them how ludicrous some of the plans were. And, uh, so they've made a commitment. We're going to be doing [00:24:30] another walk about this year, and, uh, we've been educating the CC OS, the CEO S, the planners and we've been working really closely with the council around, um, trying to get a better, uh, accessibility for everybody. Uh, wherever we go in Auckland, welfare and benefits you also advocate for do do you Do you get angry? Yes, I get very, very angry I get, um [00:25:00] but it's no good getting angry and yelling at the system. One has to get angry, but use it in a in a way, with words. You have to show what they're doing is wrong. You have to show them that what they are, um, trying to do to us is wrong. If they're not listening to us. I mean, on that welfare reform committee that, uh, Paula Bennett set up, no disabled person sat. It was all non disabled, and they're deciding on our future. And I said to them first, [00:25:30] you need to look at the cost of disabilities to get realistic. Here you are actually putting people into extreme poverty for an entire lifetime because jobs are not available, and then you're also forcing them to try and find jobs. But are their jobs appropriate to their needs to their disabilities? It occurs to me also going right back to the start of your story, which was what? And I'm interested in your view on this. Perhaps we're well intentioned. Well, meaning, but we meant rather, uh, but now we know damaging [00:26:00] policies, uh, around the way adoption was done in the 19 in the 19 sixties, in many cases, right through to what you're talking about right now. Are people intentionally getting things wrong or is it simply that they do not know And they do not know Because voices that need to be heard are not heard. Well, when you think about it, we've got our first openly disabled person in parliament. It took how long till you know, 2011. I think it was. And, um, you know, we we don't [00:26:30] have a voice at that level. We don't. They're not employing us to be the policy makers at that level. They're not employing us. We don't have any judges. No one sits on the judiciary that has disabilities. We have nobody that sits, you know, that sits at those high levels of employment, those high levels of CEO, Um, all of those high level, um um, positions. And yet we have qualified skilled people like myself sitting there saying, Well, why are you not employing us? You know we're here. [00:27:00] We got the skills. You told me I had to get the skills. And now you're saying thank you very much. But you're no good to us anymore because we can't meet your needs. They look at the value of importing people from overseas. Um, like, for Paula Bennett, for the welfare reform. She brought in Professor Alwood from the UK. And he's the one who's been causing all the havoc with the UK benefits over there, bringing him here for his voice. But they haven't looked at us. What? What was what was the what was his specialty? I'm sorry. I'm not familiar with the [00:27:30] situation. So what was his specialty? His speciality was basically getting disabled back into work. And basically, it's been, um, a lot of disabled have died as a result of the reform changes over in the UK. In what circumstances? Um, they cut. They're just stopping the benefits. They they turned around I. I have one story, and I know that this is a true one that came from some of the news media. Is that, uh, this woman was told, You've got to work, She's terminal cancer And she said, Look, I can't work. I'm too sick [00:28:00] And they said, Well, you have to work or we're going to cut your benefit They cut her benefit on the day she died, you know, because she didn't go to work as they had asked her to do. This is a documented story from the UK. Yes, it is a documented story. There are many of them. You mentioned that you've lived with depression you have done since childhood. And, uh, apart from that challenge there are many others that we've heard of in your life. Yet there is this positive attitude. There is determined attitude. [00:28:30] There's there's all these achievements in your life. Is there a way of of explaining why things I do? I, I guess, worked out this way and not as they might have. Why, why you didn't give up somewhere along the way? I have no idea, I, I guess I. I believe that there's something I'm here to do. I am a Buddhist. Um, I became a Buddhist about two years ago, and, um, I like the teachings. They give you a lot of wisdom. I'm not I I'm a person that can get angry quite easily. So, [00:29:00] you know, learning a mantra or two when I'm in the middle of getting angry is quite handy to calm myself down. Um, but I, I find I I'm a people person. I don't like seeing people suffering. I don't like seeing people hurt. I don't know if that's my Aquarian nature in me. I don't know, but, um, my adoptive father raised me with the sense of social justice. He was a great man. He was a social worker. He was an ex prison prison officer. And, um, he taught me a lot about social justice. He taught me about, [00:29:30] you know, looking into the soul of another human being and remembering that they all have potential somehow. And, uh, I try and look for the good in everybody. Sometimes I don't see it, but I try and look for the good. Um, you know, we have a homeless youth here at the moment who's in Queen Street, and he's on a skateboard because he hasn't got a wheelchair and he gets around on a skateboard. That's Third World stuff. He's homeless with his older brother who's 17. This is Third World stuff. He wants a home and he wants a job housing. New Zealand can't [00:30:00] help him because he's single and he's you know, he doesn't meet their criteria or they haven't got a house for him and his older brother, and I doubt that the two of them are very literate people, but they want to work. And, uh, yet in this country right now, we have people like him who are hurting, who are suffering. Will you continue to do what you're doing is, um, through through your consultants, as we're saying as an advocate for these people or or do you have other ambitions or or plans for perhaps, for how you might [00:30:30] continue, uh, to raise these and pursue these uh, concerns? I think whatever role I take on, I will pursue these concerns. I don't think I'll ever stop till the day I die because there's always something where someone needs to be heard, and at the moment, a lot of it is the fact that we have a convention for disabled persons, and New Zealand hasn't really done anything since it's been signed and ratified. You were on the steering committee for it. I was on the caucus. Yes. Steering committee? Yeah. [00:31:00] And are you saying that even though it's been ratified by New Zealand, it's not being acted on? Yes, it's It hasn't been acted on, uh, for a couple of years now. And, you know, one of the examples was with the Christchurch earthquake. Um, there was no proper emergency plan for disabled that should have been put in place. It actually sits within the convention. But more than that, a group of us got together and actually found places for those that were homeless so that we could get them to Auckland. In the meantime, other things that we found talking [00:31:30] to people who were struggling to cope Um, there were people there who were left without carers supports for a couple of days. You know, we we need, um, this type of thing where we need to be getting on top of it, and they need to be listening to us and saying, Well, OK, the disability community knows who's out there. Why are we not utilising them to get to them? Will you advocate on a national level? Will you go to Parliament? Indeed, as your university mentor did, uh, Margaret Wilson did. Do you see that in your future? [00:32:00] Well, if a political party will have me, I would love to. I know the greens are quite interested. Uh, I don't know. I'm looking at local body at the moment. Um, you know, maybe get my teeth cut a little bit further on on local, if I can, Um, possibly looking at a board appointment if I can, Um, we'll see what the elections hold and and how I come out. Meanwhile, you're raising two sons, too. Well, they've raised them. They're grown now. Um, you know, they they can raise themselves now, [00:32:30] which is really great. My baby's finally working and studying and doing his own thing, and and I'm happy for him, you know? He's he's found his place. Despite having his disabilities. He's actually managed to finally find a job, and he's 26. Couldn't find it in his youth, but he's finally found his little niche in life. And I'm happy for him. And my oldest son lives in Sydney. I gave him up for adoption, but him and his wife have opened the door, and I'm hoping in July to meet them and my first grandson, I was speaking to [00:33:00] her recently about her career, her work and her remarkable life.

IRN: 1215
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rnz_wiremu_demchick_historic_convictions_petition.html
ATL REF: 
ATL URL: 
TITLE: Wiremu Demchick
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VOICES: Wiremu Demchick
INTERVIEWER: Simon Mercep
TAGS: 2010s; Alan Turing; Alan Turing law; Aotearoa New Zealand; Criminal Records (Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences) Act 2018; Historic Convictions; Radio New Zealand; Radio New Zealand National; Simon Mercep; Wellington; Wiremu Demchick; expungement; external resource; homosexual; homosexual law reform; petition; petition on historic convictions
DATE: 2 February 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Wiremu Demchick talks to Simon Mercep about the petition to get historic convictions for consexual homosexual activity wiped from criminal records.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Last week. Uh, you may recall, I spoke to Professor Andrew Hodges about his book on British mathematician Alan Turing, who played a large part critical part in cracking the German's enigma code during the Second World War. The book was the basis for the Oscar nominated movie The Imitation Game Imitation Game. Now you may recall that after the war now, this was the story we heard last week. Alan Turing, who was gay, was convicted of gross indecency and [00:00:30] sentenced to chemical castration. Turing committed suicide a couple of years after that. That was in 1954. Now the films prompted calls in Britain for the government there to pardon tens of thousands of men who were prosecuted for having gay sex here. Sex between men was illegal until 1986 punishable by up to seven years in prison. And now a Wellington based man started a petition to have historic sex convictions wiped from gay New Zealanders records. He's [00:01:00] Demy. He's with us in the Wellington studio wire. Good afternoon. Hi. Good afternoon to you. Thank you for coming on to the programme today. Well, tell me First of all, how are you getting on with your efforts to raise, uh, signatures for the petition. Well, the petition is gaining momentum. It's been very, um, it's been very encouraging to see that I I we We still have a long way to go to my goal, but I'm very confident we can get there. And I've had some great conversations with people so far. How many signatures are you aiming for? I'm going for 3000. Now, that's a sort of informal [00:01:30] goal that I set myself. But it's, uh I think it's a It would be a good sign to the government that this is something New Zealanders care about. How long you haven't been going very long yet. Have you just started, haven't you? Yeah, I started, uh, late November. So it was perhaps not the best time to start a petition in certain ways. I mean, starting with, you know, sort of during the holiday season. Um, but it seemed like the right time to start anyways, because of what was happening. Well, this movie may help, um give you some momentum. I think so. Uh, now, of course, uh, New Zealand has has its own unique story around [00:02:00] around this whole issue. But I, I think people have, uh, the The movie has captured people's imaginations in a in a way that's been quite helpful. So roughly, how many signatures do you have now? Would you say it? It's a little hard for me to say for sure, because a lot of them are being held by other people. Currently, they haven't made it to me yet. But I, I think we've gotten probably around 300 OK, now in Britain, as I mentioned, I think where there are tens of thousands, I think even close to 50,000 people who whose previous convictions are are being sought to be wiped out. [00:02:30] Any idea what the numbers might be here? It would certainly be several 100 possibly, um, over 1000. It's a little hard to completely know because some of the, uh, there's a bit of challenge around getting accurate counts of exactly which convictions we would want to. Um, we would want to have pardons. So I mean, there are certain convictions that, um are sort of filed under the same things, for example, that we were not seeking to have, uh, pardoned. So So it's a little hard to get exact numbers, but I, I think we would be looking at definitely several 100. [00:03:00] And what, basically, then what is the type of conviction that you would want to be? Um, have it expunged? Well, it it is the consensual homosexual act. I mean, we we there's, um there's been on the books and there still is on the books, as there should be, um uh, crimes, uh, with having homosexual acts or any sexual acts with, um minors. So that would still be on the book. And we would definitely not want to call for that to be pardoned. So it's it's about it's about consensual relationships. And [00:03:30] given that this is as as we're discussing, it's a historic issue here. To what extent do you think there will be gay New Zealanders these days for whom these convictions have proved a major burden in their lives? Well, that's that's a complicated question, I think. Um, certainly there's the There's the there's the hundreds of people who were actually convicted, um, and and because this is 30 years on from [00:04:00] those from the from the last of those convictions, we therefore have a situation where you know there's with every year. There's less people essentially, who who, Um who are still living who have these convictions. But there's still certainly, I mean, I think there's, I can say with pretty good certainty. We're definitely looking at several 100 who still are living now. Um, they I'm not. I've heard mixed things about this I. I know that. I've heard from some people that people who got those sorts of convictions can get them wiped off using the Clean Slate act. That's not a pardon. Of course. That's just that they don't have to declare them for [00:04:30] certain jobs. Um, so it's It's hard to say, like I don't I'm not sure that there's a huge practical problem in terms of ensuring in terms of, you know, day to day prejudice. But I think it it would be very it would be an overbearing remembrance for the for these men. And then, of course, there's the broader LGBT community who, uh, I think still suffers from a degree of stigma, and this, I think, would help with that as well. Just to be absolutely clear on this, Are we only talking about men? Yes, we are. And And the reason [00:05:00] that is is, um because the the laws on the books were for men and men with men relationships there were I. I I'm not an expert on the history. My understanding is that, uh, those who, for example, were lesbian or perhaps in the trans community, um, were, you know, subject to perhaps even criminal prosecution. But I think that issue is a little bit more complicated because I I'm not aware of any laws on the books that specifically forbid those sorts of relationships. And as you've been doing your work on this [00:05:30] petition, have you been hearing stories from some men who have had convictions? I wonder what sort of tale that going to name I identifying people. But generally, what sort of stories have you been hearing? Well, I, I should say, firstly, I actually haven't had as much contact. In fact, I've had zero contact with people who have actually had convictions. I am very much, um, looking for people because I think they can tell the story better than I can. Um, but I But I have spoken to many people who are, um [00:06:00] in the LGBT community. There was there was one person who always sticks in my mind with this issue who I talked to and I. I think he's He's probably around 65 or 70 now and he was never convicted. But he had to hide his identity because of the legislation. And that was, um, I. I think you could tell he had forgiven society, but it was it was a real It was a real trial for him. So the fact you haven't spoken to these people, I'm wondering, I'm just thinking, you know, you might think odd that suggests it doesn't [00:06:30] mean so much to them. Or does it also perhaps suggest that it's something people of that generation they would not openly want to talk about? Uh, this matter of their personal history? Yeah, I mean, I. I suspect that's a large portion of it. Of course, since I haven't met them, I can't say for certainty why, Um, but I that seems to I mean, there's both. It's not since there are probably, um, we're looking in the order of a few 100 people who are convicted. And then there's the fact that it, you know, people have died through the years And then there's also the fact that the stigma I think those [00:07:00] are all important factors in in, um, you know, and and I I'm hoping that this, um, petition will will, um, allow them to consider coming out and talking about their, uh, life. What? Um, sort of, uh, communication, if any. Have you had from the government about their attitude to this? So I've been in contact with a number of, uh, MP S, Uh, and and And that is a cross party at the moment. Um, I I've been in probably closest communication with Kevin Hagg. Kevin Haig. Um, is is [00:07:30] the green Party MP who is, um, is I understand has been working closely with the government on this matter. And, um, it seems like the government, uh, the national government is quite interested in in this, uh, process, but I haven't spoken to them yet. Well, I mean, we we are now. And in New Zealand, in recent times, we're used to our political leaders, uh, every year that for a few years now they've gone along to events like the big gay out in, uh, in in Auckland. Uh, there's a a more relaxed association [00:08:00] with all members of the of the community. Would should that mean that you should be successful? Oh, I, I think so. I mean, I, I think the the LGBT community will obviously be behind this petition. And I and, um there there is a quite close relationship with, I think, many members of Parliament, So yes, I, I think that will help. Why were you so interested in getting involved in this campaign? Well, many things, Uh, when I first found out that there were still convictions on the books for these men, that was quite [00:08:30] shocking to me, and, um, I wanted to do something about it. But I, I also I have many friends who are who are members of the LGBT community. And I've had, you know, that's that. That is a big push for me, because II, I feel like I'm I'm doing this for for them as well. Ok, look, thank you very much. Uh, it'd be interesting. Oh, that's a very important question. Uh, if someone wants to get in touch with you, maybe, uh, wants to sign the petition or at least find out more about it. How do they do that probably the best way to do it is to [00:09:00] visit the website. Um, so there's dot NZ, um, and And people can go there, and it's a paper based petition. So this is is a little bit more challenging to get signatures. But people can go on there and they can download the PDF and get people to sign and then send it to me. And my contact details are there as well dot co dot NZ Did you say dot NZ dot NZ dot NZ? That's correct. Uh, how long do you think you'll keep it running for? Well, we're we're looking to, um, present the petition to Parliament, um, in early march, actually. [00:09:30] And that and that's because, um, in, uh, on march 8th, 1985 the bill to repeal, uh, crimes of homosexuality, uh, was introduced to parliament, so it's a great, um, it's a great 30 years on, uh, opportunity. Thank you for coming into the studio today. I've been talking to Demick about his efforts to get a petition going, get more and more people signing up. He's aiming for 3000 signatures for a petition which would, uh, push for a historic six convictions between gay men to be to be put aside [00:10:00] and they would for them to be pardoned. Thank you.

IRN: 1214
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rnz_insight_gay_rights_beyond_marriage.html
ATL REF: 
ATL URL: 
TITLE: Insight: Gay Rights Beyond Marriage
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alex Ashton; Anita Brady; Bill Logan; Broden Packer; Chris Piesse; Elizabeth Kerekere; Kassie Hartendorp; Liggs Hoffman; Liz Dutton; Ngahuia Te Awekotuku; Nicola Wood; Sandra Kirby; Shelley Te Waiariki Howard; Sue Lytollis
INTERVIEWER: Alex Ashton
TAGS: 1970s; 2010s; Alex Ashton; Anita Brady; Bill Logan; Broden Packer; Caitlyn Jenner; Chris Piesse; Civil Union Act (2004); Elizabeth Kerekere; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Kassie Hartendorp; Liggs Hoffman; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Marriage Equality; Ngahuia Te Awekotuku; Nicola Wood; Out on the Fields Study On Homophobia in Sport; Radio New Zealand; Radio New Zealand National; Sandra Kirby; Shelley Te Waiariki Howard; St Andrew's on the Terrace; Sue Lytollis; Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington; Tīwhanawhana; activism; civil unions; deviant; external resource; gay; gay liberation movement; homophobia; homosexual law reform; lesbian; marae; marriage; marriage equality; mental health; pronouns; rural; sport; suicide; trans; transgender; transition; youth
DATE: 9 August 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Aotearoa New Zealand, Aotearoa New Zealand, Oceania
CONTEXT: Many in the rainbow community fear same-sex marriage is being used as a universal solution for the challenges still confronting many in the communities. Alex Ashton investigates.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: It's been nearly two years since same sex couples were given the right to marry in New Zealand. So far, nearly 1800 gay and lesbian couples have tied the knot and the number of civil unions each year is dwindling into double digits. This Radio New Zealand Insight programme explores how legislation lauded by some as the final frontier and the fight for rights has changed what it is to be gay, lesbian or transgender. In New Zealand, the question [00:00:30] is that the third reading of the Marriage Definition of Marriage Amendment bill will be agreed to members. The eyes are 77. The nose are 44 the Labour MP. Lewis Wall's marriage amendment bill passing its third and final reading the deciding moment of a fiery debate that played [00:01:00] out in politics, the media and for many New Zealanders across the kitchen table, sparking a rare moment within parliament. I understand no, yeah, [00:01:30] and marking a cultural turning point. Four months later, in August 2013, same sex marriage was officially legal and gay and lesbian couples started signing up to a union they fought hard to be a part of. But how has the right to wed changed things for New Zealand's queer community. I'm Alex Ashton, and this insight explores the impact of marriage equality and asks if it's made any difference to homophobic attitudes and other prejudices. Two years on [00:02:00] Alex, Nice to Meet You and Liz Dutton have been together for the best part of 20 years and live in the house they built together in Wellington. The couple had a commitment ceremony in 2003 in front of more than 100 family and friends. A couple of years later, when [00:02:30] civil unions were legalised, they got one of those. And on the 10th anniversary of that first commitment ceremony, they legally married. We hired a double decker bus and we had about 75 80 people for this one, and we we it was like a journey. So we went to meet at the bus station or the train station, and we and we didn't tell anyone what we were doing. So we just told them to wear comfortable shoes and, uh, and bring a jacket. Uh, they're one of roughly 1800 same [00:03:00] sex couples who've tied the knot so far and who now make up nearly one in every 25 marriages for Sula to and Liz Dutton married Life was no huge shift, having been in a civil union for the best part of a decade. But some things have changed. Sue and I talked a lot about what we will call each other afterwards, because I I've always called up a my partner. It was my partner before we got civil unions. It was my partner after we got civil unions. But this time it actually gave us the option. [00:03:30] And I thought we discussed it for a bit, didn't we? And then we decided that we did want to call each other wives. So that was what we did. We married and we both have wives. And I very proudly tell people now that you know, I refer to sue as my wife, you know? Oh my, you know, my wife's coming in today, You know, so on and so forth. And there's something really neat about that. Um, it makes me feel like our relationship is even more solid. How's it been today? It's been a fairly quiet day. [00:04:00] Actually, A friend of mine ended up in hospital and I went to visit her. Oh gosh, she's Sula and Liz Dutton agree. The fight for full acceptance is far from over, but they say marriage has moved things along. But what difference is it making to queer people who aren't married? There may be some kind of trickle down effects where their families are now more open to having discussions around this. But all in all, I think that marriage equality wouldn't [00:04:30] have any real tangible impacts on their day to day lives. Senor runs support groups for Queer Youth in Wellington. But there's a reason why we still run support groups. There's a reason why we still have young people approaching us, she says. Marriage is taking centre stage in the queer rights debate and pushing aside more pressing issues. I'm definitely not making the argument that we shouldn't have marriage, and it's all bad, absolutely. But I think it's really important to note that, you know, that [00:05:00] was the kind of most symbolic, easiest thing to do and how it was treated as a final frontier. Whereas there are still a lot of things that we need to kind of be addressing in more depth and one of those matters, many feel urgently needs to be addressed is mental health. The statistics relating to the queer community are alarming. A major study published by University of Auckland researchers last year found nearly 1/5 of same sex attracted young people had tried to kill themselves in the 12 months prior, a rate [00:05:30] five times higher than that of their straight peers. M Harten says while the talk is centred on wedding cakes and honeymoons, such significant mental health needs aren't being addressed. In the same year that we got marriage equality, there was actually a National Suicide Prevention Action plan published in that same year that had no mention whatsoever of our sexuality and gender diverse communities at all. So while you have politicians and the public discussing who gets access to a wedding ring, you also have the huge emission of our health and well-being needs [00:06:00] from national strategies, and this is going on at the exact same time. Cassie Harden says that invisibility leaves queer youth out in the cold and makes them a target for bullying and abuse on the street. A harsh reality for some. Well, my name is Bro Packer, and I'm a student, uh, B a student at Victoria University. At the moment, um, as well as a couple of part time jobs. You know how it is. But Broden is gay and gender queer, meaning he doesn't identify as strictly male or female. His sexuality has made him a target [00:06:30] for abuse, verbal, online and physical. Been up maybe three times. Um, just in town. And I wasn't doing anything one time. Actually. It was me and my two female friends that were, Well, they weren't as beat up as I was, but we were all kind of targeted by a group of, you know, straight males in their twenties. Um, just shouting fagged. And I went One guy got community service for about another time because I got my jaw broken from him, [00:07:00] punching me around the jaw. He went to an all boys Catholic high school. He says it had its ups and downs, and while he was bullied, it mainly happened at home through social media. Broden says same sex marriage was a starting point. But now that it's out of the spotlight, so is the ongoing struggle of queer New Zealanders. It's easy for us and straight people and just the general media to be like, OK, gay people have won. They've got what they need to be. They can be left alone now you can do whatever you want. And [00:07:30] so it kind of excuses homophobia because it's like, Well, you're equal, it's fine. I think lots of it is social. And I think the issue is for trans people and women, um, women, queers and homeless queers. And, you know, racial minority queers are entirely different issue that can't just be addressed in a marriage equality law. The same sex marriage bill followed decades of activism. Back in the 19 seventies, gay liberation was just getting underway in New Zealand. What kind of society would you like to see [00:08:00] in New Zealand for? Well, we don't look for anything specifically for gays, but just a society in which people anybody can express their sexuality, whatever it is without being hassled and put down and ridiculed for it. You know, it's a very idealistic view, but I don't think it's impossible. And I think it's the only way we're going to make the place a better place to live until homosexual law reform in 1986 sex between men was illegal. [00:08:30] That meant for most early activists, marriage wasn't even on the horizon as an option. But it wasn't an aspiration, either. Marriage, You know, the actual notion of marriage has its history in heterosexual economics, and our church sacramental is, and I suppose I'm sounding like a tired old academic. But it is so consumerist. It's so was one of the founders [00:09:00] of New Zealand's gay rights movement. We sat around, um, in the early days and talked a lot about the notion of marriage, and most of us thought, Well, you know, it's what a man and a woman does. It's not what we want to do, because why should we want parity with them? In 1973 Ms Kou was denied entry to the United States because, as a lesbian at the time she was deemed a knownn sexual deviant. Her frustration prompted her to start campaigning for gay liberation in this country. [00:09:30] About a dozen people came to the first meeting, and about 40 the next, MSU says Queer liberation has come a long way since then, she says. Same sex marriage is a triumph for those who want it, but is irrelevant to many people. What concerns me is that in the rugby clubs, in the league, clubs, in the rural communities, in the kitchen, at the back, on the down at the beach, within [00:10:00] those parts of my world, which are traditional, which are conservative, it's OK if you're like that, but you shouldn't flaunt it. Getting married is flaunting it, says Takata, or still have a long road ahead. It's taken us 40 years to get where we are now. I think for my world, for the Maori world, it will take another 40 before people [00:10:30] like my relatives will have the courage to come out because, well, then there is still the fear of losing Mana of having their virility or their masculinity. Which is so important in the performative context is a tai group [00:11:00] which bases itself on Kaha and TIA. At its weekly meeting in Wellington, its founder and chair Elizabeth told me. For some, Takata marriage has been life changing for many people. That's a step up who saw civil unions as second class or second rate, uh, legal arrangement. And so for some it's really significant. It was something that they fought hard for. They wanted in their lives. So I. I think that is a great thing, that they're able to have that [00:11:30] and and all of the legal protections and and and the status that comes with being a married person in this country. But, she says, most Takata, we didn't rush off to get married. And for the majority, very little has changed. She says Maori face racism on top of discrimination over their gender and sexuality and she says there are issues specific to a setting. Is it all right for a trans woman to do the Is it all right for our trans men to, uh, is it OK if someone's transitioning [00:12:00] inside a group to change rules? So these are those kind of really practical day to day things. There's issues around when we, if someone has, has transitioned and goes home for, is taken home for, uh, what gender do the pronouns and names do? The use, uh, how welcome people to bring the same sex both sex partners, uh, into the and into related iwi gatherings, [00:12:30] Elizabeth says doctors, teachers and authority figures still assume everyone is straight. She feels there's still huge pressure on queer people to blend in with the crowd, and many do. But for some, it's a hard task. I think, in being simple and basic, it helps get the message across. And so, with in conjunction with a friend of mine, I go out with his signs and set them up at random locations. Um, around Wellington and [00:13:00] I stand blindfolded between them with my arms spread to tell to explain to the people that I'm transgender, that I honour them and ask them to honour me and to hug me. But on the other side, I've got the information summary of information for transgender, uh, youth taken from the youth 12 report. So these are These are quite big signs. You must get a bit of attention with them. Yeah, and because I'm standing there blindfolded with, like, I'm on a cross with arm speed, inviting people to hug me. Shelley [00:13:30] Howard is a transgender woman living in the Hutt Valley just north of Wellington. She lives openly now, but that wasn't always the case. I lived a life as a normal heter normal male meeting. Society's expectations did OK at school for a part, but then I fell afoul of the system, and, uh, I ended up joining the military married three sons. It's the whole routine. Ms. Howard is sceptical about whether legislation [00:14:00] has made any difference at all for transgender people like herself. She believes same sex marriage is a win for gays and lesbians but leaves the rest of the queer community namely those outside the standard gender spectrum, to fend for themselves with the forgotten minority. But it's understandable because in some ways, because lesbianism and homosexuality are about sexuality, and it's problematic for transgender because our our issue [00:14:30] is is not sexuality. Sexuality becomes another issue later on. But recognising us first for our gender dysphoric condition is our first major step. Shelley Howard says. The ever increasing visibility of transgender people in media, including the high profile transition of the Olympic athlete Bruce Jenner to Caitlyn Jenner, is making a difference. But she says visibility is only one part of the equality equation. It's easier now for [00:15:00] transgender youth because they have a narrative at least they can identify. But the way we reach out to them is still failing them. The people who should be supporting them and and assisting and aiding them the older generations, the people and responsibility parents, counsellors, therapists, teachers. All of these people should be reliable, informed sources of advice and help to their transgender. [00:15:30] But when you end up with a principal in a prestigious school making statements that he has no homosexuals in his college, then you really have to wonder how much more we have to do. Things have not changed at the coalface, particularly for transgender, and legislation will never do that. And with us in the studio now is a spokesman for the Gay Task Force, Bill Lurgan. Good morning. Good morning. How does it feel to be legal? Well, it hasn't really sunk in yet. I suppose it feels like a [00:16:00] moderate step has been made towards a more civilised sort of country. This debate has started to change attitudes. It has started to make life better for gays, not only in law but in attitudes and attitudes is what's important. That's activist Bill Logan, speaking to Kim Hill after the homosexual law reform bill passed through parliament decriminalising consensual sex between men. He was a gay rights advocate in the build up to reform and now works as a counsellor. [00:16:30] Mr Logan says he never envisaged queer people achieving the acceptance they experience today, let alone being able to marry widespread acceptance among gay men and liberals that it should be decriminalised. But no one thought no one that I ever came across thought of the possibility of marriage as an option. Indeed, I was asked at one point in some select committee in [00:17:00] parliament would we be pushing for marriage next as if this was a terrible thing, the next step and I was honestly able to say no, it was not an option. Bill Logan says each piece of legislation homosexual law, reform, civil unions and, most recently, marriage is a small victory for the rights movement. He says there's some connection between the law and people's attitudes, but the two things don't move at the same pace. And like Shelley Howard, he [00:17:30] believes Trans people face some of the biggest walls in the battle for acceptance. As a counsellor, he's actually seeing more young people kicked out of home when they come out as transgender. Their parents would be shocked if anyone else kicked their kids out, but they just have a huge difficulty in accepting that their little Johnny wants to be called Mary, and they will come back if they accept themselves as Johnny, give them two years and [00:18:00] they'll accept that little Johnny is Mary. But two years is a long time for a 15 year old, and in the meantime, the kid goes through a period of suicidality, and that's very, very dangerous. Time for the debate over same sex marriage put a media spotlight on queer issues, but some say now that conversation is over. It's hard to get another one going along. There is, is my wall of queer theory really and feminist theory? Uh, where the much [00:18:30] of academic work that's been written on lesbian and gay politics and its history. We've almost got 22 walls. That's right. That's right. Yeah, it's it's certainly, um, there's still plenty being written. Yeah. Anita Brady is a senior media studies lecturer at Victoria University, specialising in gender and sexuality in the media, she says the focus on queer issues is largely dissolved in the two years since the Marriage Amendment act, with good and bad implications. It removes a forum for good and bad things, so it removes the [00:19:00] forum, the pub a public forum where people can express often deeply problematic homophobic views and in the interest of debate that that so saying that you know that gay people getting married is like people marrying their dogs, for example, has a public forum. Once that legislation get gets passed, that forum disappears, and it no longer is the legitimacy of gay, lesbian and gay people to be alive. Um, doesn't doesn't get to, you know, it doesn't have the air time, um, that it used to. But of course, at the same time, what it also does is it [00:19:30] tends to mean that ongoing issues that aren't solved by, um the passing of legislation may lose their air time as well and their legitimacy, Doctor Brady says. When queer issues do make the news, it often exposes homophobia bubbling just below the surface. The out in the field survey that was released earlier this year, which was a national, uh, International, I should say survey of Western speaking countries dealing with and talking about issues of Homo homophobia in sport and 80% there was a huge, relatively [00:20:00] large anyway sample group from New Zealand. I think 650 participants. 80% of lesbian and gay people have experienced homophobia in sports situations. I mean that that's a phenomenally large number. And if you think about how important sport is in New Zealand, that's that's important to to acknowledge that two years after marriage equality that that's still an incredibly high figure. So that everyday experience of homophobia, I think, is shifting. It's changing. The acceptability of it is changing, but it's certainly not over yet. [00:20:30] Anita Brady says. Not everyone thinks marriage was the right direction for Queer Rights, she says. There's a risk that pushing so hard for marriage equality invalidates the relationships of people who choose not to marry when lesbian and gay activists have been fighting for centuries against certainly for decades, anyway, against the hierarchy, a hierarchy of relationships. I think we have to be careful in holding marriage up as the epitome of love that we don't simultaneously devalue [00:21:00] those people who choose not to who don't want to get married, who have other forms of relationships. So I think it's important to remember the possibility of difference that LGBT politics offers. The dog, the dog Hoffman and Nicola Wood have been together for nine years and in a civil union for five. But they're not married. It's interesting because we kind of joked about it when we were watching because we watched it on Parliament, [00:21:30] you know, and it went through, and then we were kind of like, Oh, should we upgrade? Because it kind of feels a bit like it is a bit of an upgrade because I guess then there's that it's the same as, um, heterosexual couples, but we've never done anything about it. Um, we've lost more out of laziness than anything we have intended on doing it on our fifth anniversary. And, um because we got a civil union in January, we just sort of went to the summer holidays and then never got round to it and then worked out that you had to do everything in advance. It's just [00:22:00] a case. We just haven't got to it yet. The pair have slightly different views on marriage as a feminist legs. Hoffman never thought she'd marry, but Nicola Wood always saw herself heading down the aisle. They say it's nice to have the option there, but it doesn't equate to widespread acceptance of queer relationships, Li Hoffman says. That's still decades away. Great that there's the option. I think that's a lot of people fought for the equality, that it's about equality. But we've still got a long way to go. You know, we still when we're sort of out on a Saturday night holding hands down the street, we still [00:22:30] get the odd remark and it's kind of like we've still got a long way to go. This is just one step. I see. It's kind of like women with the vote we didn't suddenly, you know, stop fighting for our rights just because, uh, we got the vote. So I sort of see it as the same thing. We got along lots of issues in our community to still fight for and work on. Nicola Wood says the perception that marriage equality has drastically changed the lives of queer people could actually work against them. The problem is is that when something becomes mainstream, so you see plenty of, um, gay [00:23:00] personalities on TV and characters and that sort of thing. It's almost like you're given this false sense that everything's all right, Jack and then as you go through school and suddenly the bullying starts and you and you sort of think, Oh, well, it's supposed to be all fine and you realise that that your your neighbor's dad doesn't like anything to do with you and that sort of thing. I think it it may almost hit this next generation harder. So we almost thought I expected the bullying. I expect the hard knocks. I expect the questioning from parents and then the next generation to come through is thinking it's gonna be fine, and [00:23:30] I almost feel sorry for them having to come through in that environment. In the debate over same sex marriage, religious views were central to many of those opposed to the change. Many cited core Christian values, but churches themselves present a far from universal view, and this is the church. So it's a 1922 building category one historic place, and, uh, in 2005, the building was in need of desperate [00:24:00] repair, and we have repaired it. So it has been fully restored and is a safe, accessible, beautiful building. Saint Andrews on the terrace is a Presbyterian church that sits about 100 metres from parliament in central Wellington. It's outspoken on its stance of supporting same sex marriage. Despite church leaders consistently voting to uphold a ban on ministers performing such ceremonies. The parish council's convenor, Sandra Kirby, says two years on the issue [00:24:30] is still dividing the church. Each of the General Assembly since 1991 have been tense. When these issues have been discussed, we believe they're not going to go away until they're resolved and that the tension is part of us not being able to be in a place where all are able to see things equally and resolved. What would that mean? Well, for us resolved would mean that the ministers who want to be able to conduct same sex marriages were able to do so. In our ideal world. [00:25:00] That might be all churches, but resolved would actually be each church being able to live to its values. In testimony, Sandra Kirby believes one day the Christian church will become more progressive on same sex marriage, and she hopes it will be within her lifetime. I have to believe that yes, I do. Um, I take some heart in that there have been other human rights, um, challenges that churches have stood up to slavery is probably a really good one. Status of women, Um, in [00:25:30] my lifetime, um, so churches can and do change. Um, it's a bit of shame that the church is behind the the society in this, but I believe it will catch up. In the meantime, queer rights advocates aren't putting up their feet. Hang out here and this is where we usually run out after school groups. Nice having it right in the middle of the city, I guess. Yeah, absolutely. And it's really good because then people can just cruise in if they're still, you know, in the closet or they don't want to walk past people that they know they can just kind of duck down and join the group. Cassie [00:26:00] Harten says. There's no time to be complacent. There's a whole range of different things that can take place within the school, the the community, even within sports teams within churches, there's a lot of different things that can be kind of going on, but right now it's a very under resourced and under recognised area in terms of the ways that we can get funding and the legitimacy that is given to our work. Cassie would like sexuality and gender education embedded early on in [00:26:30] the school curriculum and continued throughout the school system. I'm Alex Ashton, and that's insight for this week. If you'd like to share your thoughts on this programme, you can send an email to insight at radio NZ dot co dot NZ. Our Twitter handle is RNZ underscore Insight. I wrote and presented that programme. It was produced by Philippa Tolley with technical production by STEVE Bar.

IRN: 794
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/auckland_community_church.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004224
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089518
TITLE: Auckland Community Church
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VOICES: Vaughan Shepherd
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland City Mission; Auckland Community Church; Big Gay Out (Auckland); Christianity; Clay Nelson; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Memoirs of an Undercover Angel; Metropolitan Community Church; St Matthew-in-the-City; Vaughan Shepherd; asexual; atheism; billboards; bisexual; church; civil unions; equality; faith; gay; guilt; homosexual law reform; hope; internalised homophobia; lesbian; love; marriage equality; non-denominational; outreach; prison; queer; religion; sexuality; spirituality; straight; suicide; support; transgender
DATE: 10 February 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: St Matthew-in-the-City, 132 Hobson Street, Auckland
CONTEXT: In this podcast Vaughan Shepherd, chairperson of Auckland Community Church, talks about its history and what the church and faith communities can offer.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Saint Matthew's in the city and Auckland Community Church have been, um, together in the same building for the last probably 30 odd years. And we are the gay and lesbian, bisexual, transgender largest, uh, community church here in New Zealand. Um, there's usually about 40 or 50 people that come to our evening services, which is great. And we're just a very open and accepting community. And we have straight people that come along and people of different [00:00:30] faiths even. But yeah, when you say you kind of gay has been transgender, bisexual church, what does that mean? What does that mean? Um, it means that when Christ died on the cross, he died on the cross with his arms wide open, and he didn't exclude anyone. And for a very, very long time. And gays and lesbians, bisexual, transgender people have felt as a minority group, excluded from faith and and church services and [00:01:00] really been denied their spirituality. Um, so we're turning that on its head. We're in a unique church, which, um, sort of evangelises to say, you know, God loves everyone, and God loves gays and lesbians just as much as the the Straight Brothers and sisters. What does that mean? In practical terms, in terms of what the church does or doesn't do, what the church does and doesn't do Well, I guess, um when the Anglican, [00:01:30] uh, we're a non denominational church, so that's sort of quite important to make a a sort of statement about that. Firstly, um, whereas Saint Matthews in the city is an Anglican church at Auckland Community Church is non denominational. But it's interesting because we're still, you know, there are people that come to our services from all different walks of life. Some of them are Anglican. Some of them are Catholic. Some of them are Methodist. Um, and you know, when there is an occasion when [00:02:00] they're looking at Anglican ministers and whether they're going to be ordained, uh, gay and lesbian ministers, we're they're at the forefront. And we've been asked about these issues and saying, putting a unique voice across that, you know, it's OK for our ministers to be gay and lesbian, and actually, we need gay and lesbian ministers to to support our community. We're crying out for it. Um, you know, Jesus went out and he went out to He talks about leaving 99 to go and get [00:02:30] that one lamb and my point of view and and my spirit, where it's at Is that the gang lesbian community? Is that that 1%? And, um, those people that come from conservative Christian backgrounds that are denying that 1% aren't doing Jesus's work? How did the Auckland Community Church start Auckland Community Church started way back even before, um, the legislative changes started with, um, the sex reform [00:03:00] bill way back when and, um, Saint Matthew's realised that there was a need. Saint Matthews had always had a bit of a history with, um, helping the impoverished around the community, helping set up the Auckland City mission. But, um, they also realised that there was a need with a small group of gay and lesbian people wanting to to have a faith service. Uh, it wasn't an integrated service with their own, [00:03:30] but they ended up giving some space aside so that we could start our own little church, and it just grew and grew from there. How is the church? Or is the church aligned with other churches either nationally or internationally? All right, we're kind of at the forefront with people know about Auckland Community Church, maybe through Saint Matthew's in the city because of Saint Matthews, sort of, uh, widely known, um, billboards and controversy and stuff [00:04:00] like that. Um, we're also aligned in a sort of funny sort of way with the Metropolitan Community Church. And there is a metropolitan community church here in Auckland. Um, we would like to combine both churches. That's sort of something in the pipeline that I I'd like to see happen. But there's obviously some history that goes along with that, um, which has prevented it thus far. And, um yeah, Metropolitan community churches. If you [00:04:30] look online, you'll see them throughout the world. It's a huge movement, especially through, um, parts of America and very supportive network of gay friendly churches, Not not just for gays and lesbians. They're definitely, you know, for the straight community as well. But it's definitely a different philosophy and really welcoming everybody. The whole rainbow community, not just the black and white. You mentioned that, um, Saint Matthew has things like billboards and that that that [00:05:00] are kind of really pushing, um, pushing the boundaries in terms of messages, um, things like the, um the that Jesus should come out Billboard for Christmas and and and marriage equality. Does Auckland Community Church have any say in terms of what kind of billboards are going outside? Saint Matthew? No, not really. Uh, Saint Matthews have its own, um, people that organise the billboards and I. I know clay quite well. [00:05:30] He's going to be the minister at my civil union come march. So, I mean, I love clay to bits. Um, I'm sure his controversy and and some of the, um, publicity that's come out of the billboards has been really positive for Saint Matthews, but also very negative. Like, I'm sure, um, I hope he doesn't mind me sharing this, but he's received death threats and awful things because people can't can't just take the debate and just sort of see this as a point of, you know, creating um a dialogue. [00:06:00] And and I think I think the billboards have a place in in society. Um, as chairperson of Auckland Community Church, I'm I'm very proud to say, you know, we support, um, Saint Matthews with the work that they do, but at the same time, they are members of our Parish who one is liberal, uh, with their philosophies with their Christian philosophies and probably find it quite difficult to sort of, um, come to [00:06:30] terms with with how liberal some of these billboards are are and can be offended by them. Which is interesting because I always thought gays and lesbians would be the most liberal of Christians out there. But, you know, not everyone's the same. So So what are some of the responses been? Well, I, I think the the one that really got everyone's attention was probably Mary, um, and the billboard that says, uh, God's a hard act to follow follow [00:07:00] and and I thought that was humorous and I could have a good laugh about that. But I know that there are some members of our parish that found that, you know, quite offensive and and and I can see that I can, you know, it's it's sort of a personal thing, and and with art and sometimes with politics or, you know, whatever the agenda is, it can rub people up the wrong way. And, um, I'm sure probably some members of Saint Matthew's parish also found it difficult to to to to like that particular billboard, [00:07:30] but yeah, On the whole, I think, um, they're pretty positive. Probably just backtracking a little bit, I wanted to say, because Saint Matthews is an Anglican church and we're a non denominational church. Our ties with the rest of the community are quite broad, which makes us a very strong Christian community, because as our, um, hoists or presider that come to the church, they're from the Methodist. They're from the Anglican, the Catholic. [00:08:00] Um, we have Baptist ministers. We you name it. If there's a a Christian person with faith in their heart who's done some sort of semi seminary training, they're here, you know, once every couple of months, doing their little bit to support our our community, our unique community. How did you come to the church? Oh, when I was 19, I came up to Auckland as a young [00:08:30] um, not out man. And, um, I used to sit at the very back of the church, and, um, at the end of the church service, I used to run away before anyone spoke to me. I wasn't quite ready to come out, but, you know, it was just, um a bit of a learning curve for me, just sort of meeting other people who come from faith backgrounds and were already happy with their sexuality. I I having come from a very conservative background, I wasn't quite ready to embrace that aspect of myself. [00:09:00] And, um, yeah, I think it's all about finding that balance. And Auckland Community Church definitely helped me find that balance. And that's probably where my heart is. And that's why I've written the books Memoirs of a Undercover Angel, a trilogy, body, mind and soul because it is, at the end of the day, all about finding that balance in life. Hm. What do you get out of spirituality or religion? I think, [00:09:30] um, having a belief system, that there is something more than just yourself out there and and just a knowledge that at the end of the day, when things seem so crazy and you know, you just don't know where life is heading somehow all the bits you don't need to make sense of it. They're all going to come together and things are going to be right. I think one of the big messages over in America and stuff when they're talking to young teenagers who are struggling with, [00:10:00] um, sexual identity issues and and also, um, self esteem issues, you know. And as a young teenager, I struggled with those issues and thought about suicide and got pretty black in a in a dark place is that, you know, tomorrow is going to get better. Tomorrow is always better, and those are really powerful things to hold on to and with the faith, you know, you can really hold on to the light. You know, it may seem like a dark tunnel, but at the end of that tunnel, [00:10:30] there's a beautiful white light, and the closer you get to it, the brighter it gets and the happier you feel, the more love you have in your heart. And it does make a difference in your life. Do you still find that there are people that come and sit in the back of the church and then scurry away afterwards? Yeah, they they there are people like that, and it's so funny because it's like that was me 10 years ago, or maybe a little bit longer ago. Now, Um, yeah, [00:11:00] quite often those people that do come in what they want is just to connect because they were feeling like I did, you know, probably 15 or 19 years ago, sitting in their back, feeling so lonely and misunderstood, and as if no one had a clue what was going on inside of them. And I remember this elderly gentleman coming in one time because it's not always the young people that are struggling with [00:11:30] their sexuality issues. And he was sitting behind me, and I just realised at one point that this was kind of a big thing for him coming to ST Matthew's in the city, coming to Auckland Community Church. And I just reached out and I put my hand on his back and I said, It's OK, God loves you, it's OK And he said, But how can God love me? And he and I said to him, because he does. God's love is unconditional. [00:12:00] I'd like to think that that was a bit of a turning point in his life, because it, you know, he was almost sobbing there as just when you're struggling with your sexuality issues, whether you have a faith background or not, But mostly people that do come from a faith background. At some point they have to unlearn everything. And you're probably a person if you continue with your faith carrying a huge [00:12:30] amount of baggage around with you, which can lead to internalised homophobia. And it's a huge, huge issue, and it's not until you throw it off and say, Well, to hell with what everyone else thinks. I know what my relationship with God is like, and I know that it's real and that it's strong and that he does love me. And you stop listening to everyone else who might be preaching a different talk. And if you go to a conservative Christian church, you will know that there will be the pastors out there that are preaching [00:13:00] hate that are preaching lies. You know, not necessarily what Jesus was preaching. And that's when you got to say, Well, where is God in that? And, um, I've definitely found God here at Auckland Community Church, so But you can also find him in the quiet places and on top of a mountain and and tramping through the woods. And and those can be just as magical and special places, too. Those kind of moments, like with that older chap. [00:13:30] Um, do they change your, um, being as well? Yes, it does. I think when you are in a relationship and you're working hard and your 9 to 5 job is what it is and you're just making ends meet, it's so easy to become apathetic in life and to kind of forget about you know how difficult it is for the young people and even the older people that are struggling out there. Um, [00:14:00] and you end up not connecting with people. And yet you know your story. My story perhaps, can change people's lives and give them hope. And I think when people have hope in their life, their lives, they're not gonna make bad mistakes. They're gonna see the light at the end of the tunnel, and they're gonna want to follow it. So it does change you. It realises it makes you realise that through all the good and the bad that you know if you can take someone's hand and [00:14:30] just bring them up another couple of steps, you know, if we're all on the same journey and it's all up the mountain, you know if you can meet them at the lower part of the mountain. What is it? Base camp. And they just take them up another run, another, another few steps. And if they're happy there, then that's good, you know? And it doesn't matter if he's returned to base camp. You know, it's sort of all part of the journey. Has your faith ever been questioned? Well, have you ever questioned your own faith? Um, [00:15:00] it's probably a good question. I. I have a partner who's an atheist, so, you know, having been in a committed relationship for the last 14 years, he wasn't always an atheist, but he was, um, from a Catholic background. And I completely understand when people, you know from a gay lesbian background and a faith background just decide to completely throw off the the religious shackles. And, you know, I don't want to have anything to do with that. Um, I think it's a very brave decision, and [00:15:30] I don't belittle that decision at all. I think, um, you know, a lot of people can get on with their lives without necessarily faith, but they've got love in their lives, and I think that's the most important thing to me. Jesus was, was love. And, um, that's the message. So, you know, some people really do need faith in their lives, and they need Jesus in their lives because they're they're missing out on love. And some people maybe don't. So so did that make you question your own faith? [00:16:00] Um, I probably questioned my faith more when I was younger, but I I've just had so many experiences while growing up that just completely rocks in my world and and took me from, you know, a very shy teenager to to someone who was bold and and ready to embrace the world. And, you know, finally embrace my sexuality as well. So, um, I'm rather fortunate that I've [00:16:30] always felt a very close relationship with God and, um, yeah, happy to share that with people, but no, I probably never questioned my faith. Like like some people, I've definitely had times in my life where I haven't, um, been going to church regularly or, um, you know, been investing that time in in my spirituality. Um, and, you know, maybe those have been good times in my life too. Where I've been getting a balance and been focusing more on my, um sexuality [00:17:00] or my my mind And in many ways, yeah. Does the church have an outreach programme? We do. We, um we have an outreach programme to one of the prisons, and we go and visit them and we run a service. Uh, there, I think, once a fortnight, Um, and there are a few members of our congregation which are part of a circle of friends which help support inmates who may have been, [00:17:30] um, sexual abusers or, or something like that come into the community. And we're there to basically keep them, keep them on the straight and narrow, and hopefully give them, you know, a framework and a support network. A friendship to sort of be guided. Yeah. Um, an outreach programme. We're always interested in connecting with our community. Um, both the gay and lesbian community, but also, uh, the community at a large. We want to, you know, be a presence, especially [00:18:00] with the the gay amendment Bill coming up, um, to sort of say not all Christian churches are against gay marriage, and we're, you know, the board at Auckland Community Church unanimously support gay marriage. So, yeah, we were very passionate and about that I am especially march the 24th. I'm getting married. I don't care what they say. And today, of course, was the big day out. And you guys were there. Yeah, Yeah, it was great. It was a fantastic [00:18:30] day. It was so hot. But, um, yeah, we had a great turnout. Um, and lots of Auckland Community Church had baked biscuits, and so we were handing out biscuits and I'd made chocolate, um, fruit, spice biscuits, I. I started with a basic recipe, but I decided no, I want everything in there. So in my way, there were rainbow biscuits. The organ has just recently been replaced, and it is a beautiful instrument. [00:19:00] Um, we do the the preparers for each Auckland community church service have a different take, depending on their their denominational background. Sometimes we'll have a very, um, Catholic sounding or Anglican sounding church service. If I'm running the service, maybe you'll get a little bit more happy, Clay, and we'll get some Hill song going and we'll be shut to the Lord and all of that. And, um, you know, maybe I bring in a younger vibe into the church, which [00:19:30] is hopefully refreshing I hope I don't turn. Turn some people away. But, yeah, we definitely have a variety. And I think that's important about Auckland Community Church. You know, it's, um it's not the same flavour every every week. Talk to me about the, um, the kind of demographic of Of of the congregation who comes who comes. Um oh, we have a a wide ranging demographic. We've quite often got young people that will come in and and just sort of check out the church for three or four weeks. [00:20:00] And sometimes I think maybe they've been going to church. And they've just had a pastor who's done a anti gay lesbian speech, and they've turned off that. And then they turn up at our church feeling all sort of beaten up by the whole experience. But they end up going back to their their original churches, and it's just nice to for them to be supported by our church just in the interim and realise that they don't have to take to heart what what the minister might be telling them as the gospel because, um, he's not necessarily preaching [00:20:30] God's gospel, which is love. So, um, our demographic Yep, We've got some young people. We've got some old people and we've got some middle aged people and and the more the merrier we want. We want as wide a range of demographic as we can get it.

IRN: 774
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089573
TITLE: Session 14 - Beyond conference
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Calum Bennachie; Jim Whitman; Kassie Hartendorp; Merv Ransom
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; A New Zealand Crisis (2013); Aotearoa New Zealand; Body Positive; Bruce Kilmister; Calum Bennachie; Canterbury earthquake 2011; Chris Hipkins; HIV / AIDS; Homes People Can Afford: How to improve housing in New Zealand (2013); Human Rights Commission; InsideOUT Kōaro; Kassie Hartendorp; Le'au Asenati Lole-Taylor; Merv Ransom; Ministry of Social Development; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; Rainbow Taskforce for Safe Schools (PPTA); Salvation Army; Sara Fraser; School's Out (Wellington); The Queer Avengers (Wellington); To Be Who I Am (2008); Wellington; Wellington High School; Youth'07 survey; activism; ageing; bullying; closeted; depression; economics; education; emergency housing; gender; gender identity; genderqueer; health; homophobic bullying; housing; intervention; invisibility; marriage; mental health; older age; police; queer; retirement; safe sex; school; sex work; sexuality; social housing; social work; suicide; support; transgender; transphobia; youth
DATE: 13 October 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington High School, 251-281 Taranaki Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the session: Healthcare, housing and schools - fighting for survival, fighting for more.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Right. Welcome, everyone to this session on health care, housing and schools fighting for survival, Fighting for more. Um, the prompt for this session is we still have a long way to go. Health, housing, school and other institutions. Marginalised gender and sexual minorities among with other oppressed groups. A discussion on how to transform these institutions to meet all our needs. And, um, our panellists today are Cassie Hard, who is a socialist and great this working in youth health care. Uh, [00:00:30] Callum, who holds a Ph D from PW. Rather, she's a hate speech against LGBT communities and was the first man to be awarded a pH D in gender studies. He is working at New Zealand protest since 1999 and worked with male sex workers as well as policy and how that affects, uh, sex workers. Merv is from Levi being of NATO and descent. Uh, he is a rainbow wellington, uh, board member [00:01:00] and treasurer of the Maori and being Maori. And, um, Sarah Frasier is an activist. Queer woman proudly left, uh, proudly left. Not necessarily in that order. Who is, uh, who works in public housing research. And, uh, Jim is from Liverpool and and New Castle and emigrated to New Zealand in 2002 under the wing of his Kiwi partner, Ian. Uh, Jim, uh is a little bit retired, but, uh, works on oral [00:01:30] history being a teacher and a few other things. And he tweets, um, under tweeting account, presumably called economics and Z. Right. Um, so I think, um, we'll, uh, possibly move down the panel. Um, and then I'll open it up for discussion. Um, and so let's see if you want to start So everyone, um, thanks for coming today. It's really fantastic to be here and speaking with some really amazing people. Um, and having really amazing people in the audience listening as well, [00:02:00] um, I would first like to acknowledge, um, the that we're in today, and I'm just really excited to be here and just want to, um, acknowledge the people that have gone before us, and we've got some here on the wall as well, and just wanna, um, note that this is a really important space to be in. And I'm really excited to be standing here and be a part of that. Um, So, uh, I'm a queer youth advocate, And I'm working in the, um, the youth health sector at the moment. And, uh, I'm gonna be speaking a little bit less from my personal experience [00:02:30] and going to be talking a little bit more about what I think from what I've noticed, uh, some of the issues facing queer young people today and, um, what can really be done about it from an activist perspective is something that I'm really interested and passionate about. So, um, so, yeah, that's what I'm gonna be talking about. So, um, when I use the word queer today, I just I know that it's not for everyone. I'm doing the disclaimer, but I'm gonna be using it just as a quicker way because I don't know how long this is going to take, So I want to quicken it in some way. Um, I'm gonna be using it to [00:03:00] describe, to find people who, um are on a range of sexual and gender diversities. So it's not just sexuality in this case, unless I specify otherwise, if that makes sense, but yeah, so I'll just go from there. So the general picture of queer young people, um, basically the there's new research that's just come out from the Youth 2000 survey. So last year, and for the first time, they've actually, um, done some research about how many young people are, um, nonsense or [00:03:30] or, um, identifying as transgender, which is amazing. Um, and the findings actually show that 1% of youth right now identify as transgender. And what that means by them is that they're either trans queen or gender queer, so that's 1%. And then there's also 3% who are not so sure. So we're talking about 4% who, um, are not Are somewhere on the gender spectrum that [00:04:00] isn't isn't which I think is really awesome that we have this kind of research. Um, in terms of sexuality about 3%. Um, no, sorry. 4% are attracted to the same or both sexes, um, as according to the research. And 4% are not sure or attracted to neither sex. So if we're including asexuals, that's about 8% of young people who are, um, who are identifying as queer in some form. So that's kind of where we are as [00:04:30] a basis. And I think that's really useful. Um the Youth 2000 survey from 2007 because a more in depth discussion hasn't really been, um, released yet regarding, um, the last year at least, but it shows that, um, queer young people are facing greater difficulties in accessing health care. They're more likely to be bullied. Um, they're at an increased risk of alcohol and drug abuse. Uh, and there's higher rates of depression, suicide and self-harm. So I'm kind of saying things [00:05:00] that people might be quite aware of otherwise, you probably wouldn't be here, but just kind of spelling it out. And I think this is really reflected in terms of, um, my own work as a as a queer youth worker with young people and that coming to terms of sexuality, isolation from peers and from families. Um, Depression, suicide and homelessness are actually big things that we've been facing. So yeah, um, so that's kind of a bit of a picture about how it's looking at the moment. And I kind [00:05:30] of want to start off with a like a quote, um, by Paul, and we're kind of I want to talk about the education system because I've asked to talk about schools here, so obviously, schools are just one part of the queer young person experience. But I think it's a really integral part because we basically have to be there until we're 18 or so. So it could be a bit younger, but it's expected that you're there and being part of that system. So how should how should that system look while people are there? So I've got this quote here, and so it's kind of dense, but [00:06:00] I think it's quite important. So saying education either functions as an instrument which is used to facilitate integration of the younger generation into the logic of the present system and bring about con conformity. Or it becomes the practise of freedom, the means of by which, um, people critically and creatively engage with reality and discover how to participate in the transformation of their world. So we're talking about two separate concepts here, and I think [00:06:30] the education system, as we look at it right now is probably more in the former one. We're teaching young people how to how to work within the logic and within the structures that are already in place and expecting people to conform along the way and not really question and change. Um, and that logic at the moment is saying that queer young people aren't really important on the agenda. They're not really there. Um, they're not really recognised. So, uh, I had a bit of a chat with one of my friends [00:07:00] who's a Ministry of Education person. I'm gonna call them, um, the government at the moment. Um and basically, I kind of said to them because I'm an activist and I'm a queer youth worker. And sometimes I don't really have any idea of what's going on with government and I. I kind of like that because I'm like, Oh, you're always doing stuff wrong, But I wanted to actually check my facts first and look with what? That was the case. And, um, this person did say, actually that, um, queer invisibility [00:07:30] is the biggest issue facing queers in the education system. So we're talking about pretty much very basic basic stuff that at the moment, these issues our issues. Queer young people's issues are just not there on the agenda. They're quite invisible. And that's something that we all kind of know already. But, um, from the na so cool that's been sorted. Um, in terms of the educate, I'm just going to talk a little bit about what is what [00:08:00] are some of the issues that I think are coming up. And this is from my own perspective and I'm aware that there's there's a range um And so at the moment, as it happens, there are some queer youth organisations who are teaching education programmes, schools and doing professional developments um, workshops within organisations, so these aren't compulsory. Basically, we, um we source the funding ourselves and we, uh, take care of most of that all on our own. And schools [00:08:30] don't have to let us in, so we only work with the ones we've built relationships with and because, as we all know, that we learn the most from the hidden curriculum. It's really problematic when we have, um a whole however many years from age 5 to 18, when actually, most of us probably have never heard the word queer, lesbian, gay transgender from a teacher or within the curriculum like the actual curriculum. And I think that's that's a real concern. So So [00:09:00] at the moment we go in and we teach education, and it's really great because we get to speak with. We get to speak to the young people in the room who may be queer or questioning at some point in their life. And we also get to talk to the teachers and to their peers about what you can do to be able to support these people if they do come out. So it kind of has a two way purpose, and it's it's It's a really positive, amazing experience. Um, it just sucks that we're quite underfunded and not taken seriously enough to be able to be let in in the first place. [00:09:30] Um, so schools are run pretty independently and often their main interest, as they put it, at least, is keeping the parents happy. That's the main stakeholder. Most of the time, parents come back and they're complaining to the board of trustees. Then you have a big fuss. So usually I think it's used an excuse, Um, and keeping to more traditional conservative, uh, forms of education and content because it's an easy scapegoat to say we can't really, you know, upset the parents who are coming in the wider community whether or not those parents actually [00:10:00] disagree. Um, so another point that's going on is that there is really great research that is out there at the moment, for instance, like the to be who I am, report. There's been some really great research, but I don't think it's really been taken seriously. It's not being implemented, it's there. We just need to be putting it into practise, and because these issues aren't visible, it's not taken seriously. It's not. It's not there, it's not happening. Um, I guess another concern I have is that, um Recently there was a national suicide [00:10:30] prevention plan that was put out, and the Queer Communities were completely missing from that plan. And that's like of great concern, Um, when we are one of the main demographics that, um, are at high risk of of suicide, and how do we deal with that? The fact that we're already ambulance at the bottom of the cliff and it's our own communities and our own families and our own peer groups who have to actually bear the brunt of these really, really tragic circumstances, um, and feeling really isolated most of the time. [00:11:00] So it's really concerning that that isn't really even on the agenda at a national level. Um, and another point is in terms of bullying. So as far as I've been told, the Human rights Commission has actually told the education Department that, um, it's a problem that bullying isn't being recorded. And I think that's really concerning because we don't know what bullying really looks like in A and we need to be able to make some We need to be able to take an actual, um, an [00:11:30] examination about what? Homophobic or transphobic? Um, bullying will look like so from there, by the way, Jason, tell me if I'm starting to run over. Yeah, Cool. Um, I came up with this really, like, complex diagram because I'm like, OK, this is this is really great. We've got all all this knowledge, but what do you do with it? How do we make something of it? So bear with me while I go through this, but basically, I'm kind of saying that, um, in this case, [00:12:00] the young people were here, and obviously they're at the centre of this, But I think this can apply to any situation when you're fighting as an activist, right? so this could be beneficiaries. This could be, um it could be sex workers. Um, it could be homeless so on and so forth. And I think that what the thing about youth is that, um they know the issues, they know what's going on. So this is built on on an institutional knowledge, but [00:12:30] that's what it is. It's a knowledge. So they know the issue. It's not there at the coal front, it's affecting them. This is what it's about. Um, as well as that we have the workers, and these are the workers who will be working with the youth. So it could be, um, teachers. It could be queer youth workers, community organisations, um, people within mental health as well as, um, people within governmental departments. And so I'm looking at this, and I don't want to create this real dichotomy [00:13:00] between the two. But, um, just for the sake of this, this diagram just go with me for a second and was based on an institutional knowledge. So they're at they're at the coal face, they're seeing what's going on, and they know the issues as well. And also there's a class of memory, so the older people would have seen the battles that have taken place and know what has been fought and what has been won and where we can, where we can move forward. So [00:13:30] there's a layer of workers within this who know what the problems are. But the reason I put it in a square here is because I think it's really difficult, Um because we're quite restricted when we fall into these worker spaces, because I think there's a general logic that as organisations as representatives, we have to remain neutral and we have to be nonpolitical, um, beings and non-political organisations. And of course that's really [00:14:00] impossible because everyone to know that politics is everywhere, power and balances are everywhere and it just means that we're not addressing what's going on. So, um so the people who have the knowledge currently quite restricted by what they can do with that knowledge and where it can go and um, this can be connected to funding. So it means that people don't want to speak out about stuff because it means that they might miss out on governmental or council funding. Um, and just that look of having to be neutral [00:14:30] all the time. I think is really big, and it can be police. Sometimes it's really covert, like managers, firing employees or ruining their future job prospects for speaking out. And I think this particularly with unions. This is a big one, and also, um, it can be less. It can be more overt and that it's not really talked about. Nobody really talks about the fact that you know you're dealing with really complex, messed up systems, and the problem is the system. The problem is the structures, and it needs to be changed, but nobody really wants. There's [00:15:00] no space to be able to talk about it. You just do your job because it's your job and you want to put the food on your table, which is quite understandable. Um, so from here and again, I'm not trying to make these, um, separate groups because the thing is, is there's tonnes of crossover. But the way that I'm conceiving of as the moment is that activists often occupy the space that is out of the square and often out of this as well. Um, and what we can usually do [00:15:30] with that space. Sometimes we're in them. Sometimes we're out. But generally people are committed to making structural changes. Um, outside of these systems, or within sometimes as well. And I think, um, from my perspective, what the role of the activist should be is having meaningful dialogue with both, um both youth or whoever the other group is and as well as workers. It all seems kind of common sense most of the time. Um, but I think it should be about facilitating [00:16:00] a space where, um, activists can talk with the two groups as well as talking with each other and from there taking those issues and turning them into political messages. So, um yeah, and from political messages, that's how we start having a vehicle for creating change. Um, and this is all makes it seem kind of simple. But I think [00:16:30] from my perspective, having been, um, having being or having been a young person, but also having being a worker and still a worker and being an activist, it's really difficult being able to be in both camps all of the time and being able to pick which hats. I mean, I have to get permission to be here speaking on certain, um from certain, um, organisations that I'm a part of and it's really I think about how we can use our spaces and who we are to our best advantage. So I think in this particular case, the things that need to happen [00:17:00] around queer young people is that there needs to be more open political dialogue. Um, there needs to be more more space for this and, um, involving many different voices, which is obviously really important. So having, um, people talking to people that they might not usually be talking to, I think is really, really important in in forming, um, forming alliances. So I think a key one of that and which I missed out in here, actually is some of this group. But also [00:17:30] there are groups and these are unions. And I think in terms of unions, usually you can guess that these are the people who are going to be the organisations that are already going to be working for social justice. So I think it's about connecting with unions, particularly for young people connecting with teachers unions, um, finding allies, having conversations, um, campaigns at school board level, building public pressure on the outside and really, I think, focusing on the long term. I think capitalism [00:18:00] as a system is based on short term fixes and short term responses for long term embedded problems. Um, and I think that we need to be really fighting that logic. We can't just find 11 solution for years and years of oppression. That's not how how it's going to be solved. We need to be digging our heels and and and working from the ground. And I really liked the, um the that happened yesterday in the talking about weaving and I think weaving those relationships together, um, in this way, in [00:18:30] any way. But it needs to happen so that we can, um, be working together as a stronger front. So, yeah, those are my ideas. And thank you for listening there things out, right, OK, just as that comes into focus and everything. Now, this starts off very similar to the one [00:19:00] I did yesterday because I didn't know if there was going to be the same people here. Some of you are different. Some of you are the same. So bear with me while I just skip through those slides right So again, who is and what is NZ PC? We were formed in 87 6 workers working together, getting together, talking with each other in beaches, on the cafes, street corners, bars, homes in the brothels, talking with each other about what could be done [00:19:30] to improve their employment rights and also issues about their section, their sexual health. Um, because at that time, HIV was just coming into the community, Um, the contracted by the Ministry of Health. Although the very first contract that NZP PC signed was actually signed with the Minister of Health, not the ministry. Um, the Ministry of Coast, of course, went under different changes over the number of years. And, um, our contracts have continued throughout that period. We have community bases in cities [00:20:00] around the country. Those cities also do outreach to various different parts of the country. So Auckland covers all of um from southern southern fringes of Auckland. North Tauranga covers all of Hamilton right down through to Taranaki, across Gisborne. All that area Wellington is just, um, coast and with sometimes going up to the Hawke's Bay because we do have a outreach worker in Hamson North who [00:20:30] does go up to the Hawks Bay and go goes across to as well. Um, Christchurch covers everything from Timaru North and Dunedin covers everything from South. Um, we are a rights based organisation, OK, rather than just a condom vending machine. But we do provide information to people working in the sex industry. Um, we have two websites, one of which is currently under construction, which is the sex book law dot co dot NZ. But that's, um, [00:21:00] couldn't have some other things added to it recently. Um, we deliver national and policy advice to NGO S and government organisations right throughout the country, including local government organisations. So yes, we do include the Auckland Council and things like that and the information that we provide, Um we provide sexual reproductive health resources to all people within the sex industry. That's regardless of gender, regardless of ethnicity, regardless of migrant status, and also regardless of whether they are an operator [00:21:30] or whether they're a sex worker themselves, Ok, um, we provide a supportive environment in our community basis. Anybody can pop in for a tea, coffee, check whatever, get information about what they need to know about anything like that and we strengthen strategic alliances right throughout the sexual health region. Um, area itself as well. So yeah, just a little tongue tied there. Right. So who are sex workers? [00:22:00] Just over half are European. Um, just over 30% are Maori, 5% Pacific Island and 30% 13% or other. The other includes all of Asia, right from Japan, right through to the Middle East, all of Africa, African Americans, um, South America and the Caribbean. So it's quite a large other, um 85% are female, 9% are male and 6% are transgender. As I said again [00:22:30] last night, sexual orientation has very little to do with what a person does when they're at work. This emphasises that sex work is work rather than sexual orientation. So we have gay men who will work with female clients, straight men who will work with with male clients and lesbians who also work with male clients. So there's very little about sexual attraction to do with it [00:23:00] again. Um, 83% of the industry is indoor. 17% is outdoor. That's working on the streets. Um, the large brothels like Splash and Paris and Um and, um, the White House in Auckland. They are around about 62% of the indoor brothels, big owner operated brothels and the small owner operated brothel. [00:23:30] That is those that are working privately by themselves or with one or two others. They take up around about 38% of the indoor. Um, work scene. Um, now, we had this broken down by the area that they worked in, but we didn't have it really broken down that much by gender. I had to do a little bit of work to find out exactly how many male sex workers were included in that study by region. OK, I had to pull figures out from here and there. So you can see here that although, [00:24:00] um, it was quite a large number Watt indoors. For all of the sex industry for male sex workers, more of them will work outdoors than indoors. Most of the men who are working outdoors are based in Auckland and Christchurch at the moment, and it's sporadic. There are no male sex workers working on the streets in Wellington. [00:24:30] Every so often we pick up one or two, but then they disappear again. um because they realise that they can work better and have better conditions working indoors. Um, so yeah, 31%. 31 of them in Auckland. Three of them in Christchurch. None anywhere else. So why do male sex workers start at work? You can see here [00:25:00] that we've got the comparison there for male, female and trans. Everybody starts what for money, some more than others. Men and transgender people are more likely to start sex work to explore their sexuality. Everybody has household expenses, although transgender people are less likely to use the money that they earn to, um for household expenses. But the real telling thing is unable to get a benefit [00:25:30] of parental support. No, Here we find that the people who tend to not be able to get a benefit of parental support at that time tend to be older women who are in relationships so they don't qualify for a benefit because of their spouse's income. But for the guys and for the transgender in particular, it's because they have been told to leave home because [00:26:00] of their gender or sexual orientation. So that's quite a significant thing to take into account. OK, that's a very significant thing. But does that mean that there are heaps of young people working on the streets? No, it doesn't because the numbers are involved are so, so low to start off with. Um, last night I said that there are claims in South Auckland that there are hundreds of people working out in the street and that dozens of them are young people. [00:26:30] That's not true. The police cannot find any evidence of the claims made by or anybody else. They cannot find any evidence of the claims made by John McCracken and the other people from the Auckland Council and the local board who claim that there are hundreds and hundreds of young sex workers out there. It just isn't true. Um, we work very closely with CFS, the police and other community organisations, including faith based organisations that go out [00:27:00] on a regular basis. Even the faith based organisations are scratching their heads and going young people out there where so there is no evidence of any of the young people that are claimed by, um, the people and authorities up there, um, paying for education. It's around about the same all over the place because it's not against the law anymore. It's around about the same made to work by someone. It's claimed it. [00:27:30] Hundreds and hundreds of people have trafficked into the sex industry every year, but that's just not true. We don't find any evidence of that. Um, the police don't find any evidence of that immigration. New Zealand don't find any evidence of that. So, yes, people work for a variety of reasons, and each person has their own individual reason. Some people may think, Can I do this and then go for it, [00:28:00] maybe do one or two jobs and then stop others for different other reasons? OK, um, we have lecturers and policy analysts and people who have who have started sex work because it's less stressful than their other job. OK, sex work venues, um, manage brothels, massage parlours. They were called, um, agencies, independent private work places, um, bobs, [00:28:30] beats and cruise clubs. Some of the guys work from there, and, of course, street based sites. Um, but what do we do? Um, the Prostitution reform Act requires brothel operators to show signs like this and to take all reasonable steps which is very different from must use OK, must use means that you must always do so. Take all reasonable steps means that if there's a slip up, that's [00:29:00] OK. We can deal with that as it comes. But when someone deliberately rips off a condom, that's not take all reasonable steps. There have been clients who have been charged for removing the condom during sex, and, um, they've all been fined. But this is really telling, um, the question I feel was watered slightly differently than it should have been. [00:29:30] Always use the condom for vaginal, anal or oral sex. OK, no, this isn't in the table. I had to pull it out from the text, um, but wasn't recorded for male or, um, female or transgender. It was just a base figure of everyone. The unprotected anal sex. That's a worry. [00:30:00] Now, the study didn't look at whether it was the sertive partner or the passive partner, the top or bottom, whether there was, um, a sex worker was playing the part of, So we don't know about that. And this is an area that we will have to do more work and and it's an area that we have to do more research in as well. We are currently talking with research who we've worked with in the past to, um, [00:30:30] do some research on male sex workers and find out the reasons why some of them aren't using condoms. We know that this here is the reason why this is so low. Part of that is because of different messages from different organisations. NZ PC tries to push the message that well, you should really be covering up every time and things. And if you use a condom for oral, you're not gonna get herpes [00:31:00] in the mouth. You're not gonna get chlamydia in the mouth. You're not gonna get gonorrhoea in the mouth things because we look at the whole sexual health thing. We don't just look at one aspect, whereas some other organisations tend to put out Well, it's all right for HIV. You can't get HIV that way, but they don't talk about other things. We, on the other hand, have to take everything into consideration. Um, but the frequency that unsafe [00:31:30] sex is asked for. That's quite surprising. Thanks in comparison to the, um, female walkers, this is low and this is very hard and we are very concerned about that. Why are the clients of male workers in particular asking for unsafe sex? Why are the male clients of transgender people asking [00:32:00] for unsafe sex? But the strategies that people use to get clients to use a conduct, tell them it's the law. It's quite plain simple. No problems whatsoever. Tell them that the owner or brothel operator tells them that they have to wear a condom that works quite well, threatened to call someone that has been used. Um, tell them explicitly beforehand. Just do a hand job. That's the easiest one, the one that you can't see because [00:32:30] the bag at the bottom is still showing there is refuse to do the job. Um, the total is 60% 56% for male and 60% for female, 71% for trans. So a lot of transgender workers will refuse to do the job rather than perform unsafe sex. So what happened before and after the Prostitution Reform Act? On the 17th of December 2002, 1 of the male workers here in Wellington had had [00:33:00] the police raided his house. He was told. We are here to sacrifice for evidence of wrong keeping on the search warrant it had. We can seize condoms and other sex paraphernalia as evidence of bottle keeping as a gay man. How many condoms could he keep at home before his house would have been placed as a brothel? OK, since the PR A has been passed [00:33:30] in 2003, the police attitude has completely changed, and now it's one of protection rather than persecution. And I say persecution for a reason. Um, it's safe to keep condoms et cetera. At home, you no longer have to hide them in fridges, as some people were doing. You can work from, as as a sex worker from home, and it's OK to run. A brothel Prostitution Reform Act has been passed has been reviewed by the Prostitution Law Review Committee. [00:34:00] Um, that included sex workers, brothel operators and people from um, the Ministry of Women's Affairs, Ministry of Health, and various other um, government and non government organisations as well as NZ PC. The research from the Christchurch School of Medicine has shown that the prostitution of form provides a lot of support for sex workers and that it works very well. But it does remain contentious as we saw last night stuff about South Auckland. Um, [00:34:30] one of the very important things that comes out of it, though, is that sex workers can say no to sex with a client for any reason at any time and not have to see why. So what does NZ PC in particular provide to male workers? Well, the obvious in different flavours, different sizes and different colours OK, from large to small to [00:35:00] different types of flavours. Strawberry, vanilla, banana. Yuck! We do do test tests, um, chocolate, things like that. OK, we also provide the other obvious thing. Look again, we do taste tests and I still can't stand the artificial banana flavour Dental dams. Ok, um, dental dams are used for brimming and for, um, going down on a woman things just to add protection and things [00:35:30] there and it stops things from going through and of course, gloves. But the most important thing is our information booklets. This one here is one of the new worker booklets. And, um, it goes into everything that people will need to know about sex work. Yes, it does have pictures of dribbly dicks and things like that in it, so that people are aware of what those might look like. But it also goes into information about employment rights, your rights as a sex worker, and [00:36:00] it also covers things like taxation. Everything that a person needs to know about sex work is in there, tells you how to get out of difficult or dangerous situations. It lets you know about other things that might arise as you're working as well. Not only that, but we talk with people as well when they come to us to ask about sex work. And I give various case studies that have happened and things like the guy who was in Auckland with a female client. And, [00:36:30] um, as he was walking away in the bed, he heard a weird noise. So he stopped a weird noise, continued, got up and found it was the husband under the bed, choking off on the fact that his wife was having sex with another guy. Another male worker in Auckland who heard a sneeze coming from the wardrobe, jumped up and realised that the client's boyfriend was in there with a video camera. The client [00:37:00] that, um, didn't pay and then came back, didn't pay the right amount and then came back to a B DS M situation and was strapped up against the wall when he was confronted and said, you didn't pay me properly last week. I'll just leave now. Will I? Worker walks towards the door and shuts the door. Client blindfolded doesn't know what's going on. Please me her Stop, please. Me, her Come back. So [00:37:30] yeah, right. Um, so, yeah, we do cover a lot of the cases that might arise. And a lot of the cases that me only arise once, Um, we talk with sex workers all the time. We discuss with them at the moment. Um, with the new worker booklet, I have one of the male workers in Wellington here, going through the mail worker booklet. And, um, making sure that the stuff is appropriate for male [00:38:00] workers because this one here is more of a general thing rather than a specific gender thing. Um, I often get asked. So how many male workers have in Wellington at the moment? Um, that depends on whether you count all of the ones on the websites or just all the ones that you know who are actually working. If you go by all of the ones that are on the websites, it can be about 30. But if you go by all of the ones who are working at the moment, it's [00:38:30] around about 11. So yeah, OK, it's just references on the next page. So that's great. But, um, no stuff. Um, I'm gonna paint a very broad, um, frontline rubber [00:39:00] meets the road kind of strategies to help advocate. Um and I know that the for this workshop is, um, gender and sexual minorities. So some I make more specific, but I think would work, um, on the front line, and others are just generic. That will help. I don't like the word clients. I prefer people or the people that we work with. Anyway, I wanted to start with a few models that I found effective. Now, um, these aren't found in conventional [00:39:30] texts because they're rather high, but they work, um, in practise. So the first one that excuse my her is this is actually a cocktail, um, glass, Um, because everyone that we are feed or support to, um what they need depending on what they are experiencing in their life. They may need, um, front loading, as in project [00:40:00] management, A lot of investment. And that's the first thing they must drink before we address the deeper issues that might be going on here. Sometimes this is likened to a volcano, so that's a very basic Well, intensify your intervention very early on with what they need most and gradually progress them through. And this is normally centred around, um, tasks centred. So just very easy. Bite size. Do this first XYZ [00:40:30] kind of stuff? Um, the other one is, um, circus. Um so this ring master is juggling. And, um, sometimes what you're doing, because you don't know when agencies are going to get back to you, is that you will concentrate. Or, um, if circumstances are changing, like if this ball drops, it doesn't really matter, [00:41:00] because you need to throw the next part of your intervention up in the air. So it's just like the cyclic nature, because you're never quite sure how someone's, um, life. Your involvement with them is going to turn out at that time, so you always have to be ready to change what's kind of up in the air or keep track of your intervention as much as possible. I can't draw a chameleon. But if you could just imagine, um, you know, their anatomy doesn't change. So you have to keep your professional [00:41:30] are who are, um, your persona about you, But you need to be able to adapt quite quickly the colours that you kind of depending on the situation you're in. So the way that I might approach someone at a tribal authority is going to be completely different. How I'm going to appear and, um, proceed with my intervention, say, at work and income. So just imagine, like a chameleon, you have to be able to adapt quite quickly. Um, And now I thought I'd go over just some [00:42:00] generic kind of stuff, and then I'll drill down into specific, um, housing, health and education stuff. Um, a lot of oh, shit. A lot of the time people want to escalate to a manager. Now that very in five minutes flat, you'll have that person, um, with their backs up and feeling cornered, and they'll actually sabotage your involvement. And I noticed [00:42:30] that a lot of people employ their technique. Um, but I'd advise on maybe trying some other things first, Um, but the big one, which I might do that Get in the circle now. I don't know how spiritually inclined people are, but, um, I believe it works. Um, because when you're out there advocating, if they know that you have the energy that you're going to give up, you know, after three attempts you've you've lost the battle before [00:43:00] you've even started. So they need to know that your signature, your energy is going to prevail. It it changes the whole dynamic with how you deal with them. Because if they feel that they can brush you off with some kind of flippant, offhand, get out of my face kind of comment, Um, you you won't come out on top in that situation. I can almost promise that, Um oh, yeah. Um, and stack the vote beforehand. [00:43:30] Um, what you don't want, um, is when the person you're with, especially when we talk about minorities, is to go into that that understandable victim mentality. They have to be on the same page as you can be quite, um, because if they say, look at work and in the case managers over there, If they see that you're disagreeing. You know that? Um you don't know where you're, um, [00:44:00] person is gonna come from with the advocacy again. It's very detrimental, you know, to your involvement. Because they say, Oh, you don't even agree. So why would I? Why would I kind of bother? So they stack the vote beforehand. Um, the other one is, um a lot of organisations don't like to be, um, outdone by another, Especially if you can make that known to the community. So if you can, [00:44:30] whether it be your fax email, voicemail, let them know that so and so is gonna going to come through with this part of your intervention. Therefore, what are you What is your organisation going? Do I found that quite effective in the past, that was that no organisation normally wants to be out. Done Another thing, just like teachers, Um, And me being a social worker, if you need to call upon your membership [00:45:00] body, then then do it. I don't think that's because when you look like you're just an individual just doing your nut, you know, on behalf of someone, they won't give you the time of day. But if you can, um, advise them that you affiliate to a professional membership body that really, really changes things in your favour Normally, Um oh, and paying it forward, [00:45:30] especially in the Maori word if you just show up and you want something, um, you're not gonna get much. And this is the reciprocation that's needed amongst us professionals. Because if you can just go knocking, you know, and someone's thought Oh, I haven't seen you for a year. But now that you want something Hello, Um, that that never ever goes down. Well, it always pays to have an insider. Um, but never, ever [00:46:00] ask them to do anything dodgy because just like we wouldn't ask to be, you know, to put our job at risk. Never, ever ask them to do something dodgy, or you'll soon lose their insider. Um, another thing is follow process. Um, this is before going sideways, if you need to, because what they would do is they will default, that you have not adhered to our internal processes. Therefore, your review is invalid. [00:46:30] So just I. I don't mean to say, um, teach people to say so, but I just hopefully one of these will, um, reason. The other one I've got is, um, exemplary person. Um, so if you can articulate, um, because of centralization, Um, a lot of professionals don't [00:47:00] know the person you're working with from the bar, so? So if you can, you know, stole their virtues. You know, just what a wonderful person you found them to be, You know, within reason, um, that they are. And then, um Then I would also do that. Just maybe I'll put a cautionary note here. Um, when it comes to funding a lot of NGO S don't have much money, so I wouldn't start to threaten. Or, you know, I'm gonna seek legal [00:47:30] advice over the situation because what what we normally have access to is the Wellington Community Law Centre or your person will have legal aid. All they will do, especially government departments, was now high private lawyer man, you are essential and done for, because when it comes to this subsidy, um, or free information, [00:48:00] they never have as much resources that they're exposing. So, um, never a good thing. Um, I'll just do a quick check before I go into Oh, The other one is the what's in it for me? Factor. So a little bit of research especially, um, the strategic plan. So if you can align, um, where you're coming from, your organisation Not just [00:48:30] what you're wanting out of that situation, but what is in it for the other organisation, Um, is another good, um, letterhead and business cards. Um, rather than just on a plane a four as well. Ok, now, um, specifically to help now, Um, just with, um, I'll quickly run through the Ministry of Health. Um, PH OS, the New Zealand Medical [00:49:00] Council, the Health and Disability Commissioner, but more. Um um, locally, is that practises? If you're not getting much joy from your GP, you might want to approach one of the partners of that practise because they have a vested interest in what people are coming into that practise. Um, housing. So housing New Zealand, Wellington. I did [00:49:30] want to put in a plug for Chris over there about the Wellington Housing Trust. Also, emergency accommodation. You must have a support plan because around Wellington they've got very a fear about just accepting someone that they feel is at risk. So if you know, dear men um mention mental health, and they won't be leading that person into their accommodation at all. I, uh, education the Ministry [00:50:00] of Education, er ONQ a board of trustees, the unions. Um um, I've got water written down here because, um, if you can sell a mutual, um, alliance where they know that if they help the person that you're advocating for will mean a sustained benefit to them over the long run, whether it be by a formal MOU or just like a working [00:50:30] relationship. Um, I. I just thought a specific example was I managed to get someone's, um, rent reduced by $80 a week simply because this person had, um, um taking classes. And I know that they would not have got an interpreter there to help that person understand that contract. So I didn't need to do the whole legal avenue. So it was just simply because they knew, um, that that particular [00:51:00] lady would not have understood at all what they would have been going through. Um, I don't know if I mentioned the tenancy tribunal there. Um, the health example I have is, um, a example. And I just could not believe, you know, There's a lot of Allied health staff and so called, like, you got your specialists, your surgeons, registrars so forth. And, um, you think that after all the years of formal education that they have, [00:51:30] that they might treat every person with some dignity, but like, there were jaws dropping all around the world through the corridors. And I just It's rather disheartening that, you know, so-called professionals out there. Um, I guess don't have the humanity with the empathy. Still not to discriminate against gender and sexual minorities. Another plug for social workers Because, um, there's not much we haven't seen, [00:52:00] you know, by now, after you've been there a while. So, um, if you're at a loss, you know what to do. Whether you're in a sticky situation or whether you're wanting to support your loved one friend, family member, get a social worker ASAP. Um, Fucking hell. Oh, and with especially the minorities speak. [00:52:30] I've got the Human Rights Commission, so it will be good to familiarise yourself with what grounds and areas. Uh, the human rights Commission covers also the equal employment opportunities, which is EEO. Yeah. Um, and if the person that you're not working with, Uh, sorry. If the person you're working with isn't working, then you want to seek a review of any decision. That's the only way that you normally [00:53:00] get any joy out of work and income. Um, which is sad in itself. Oh, yeah. And I'll end with, um thanks. Um, um, this is the only area that anything's ever meaningful to anyone. [00:53:30] Oh, what was it? I learned it the other day. Talk does not cook rice. I just heard that the other day, and I will never, ever forget that. Right? So, you know, the is all fine and well over to and academia. Yeah, but you must be the conduit here to bring that theory down into the reality of that person's world so that you can actually make a difference [00:54:00] in their life by practise. Yeah, that's good. Thanks for that. Um, I think we've got a half an hour left, so we're going to get through our next two speakers, and I'm going to open it up for some brief discussion. If we can do that, um, I know I was I'm gonna take my chair, sit down. Although I have to say I'm really quite tempted to run around the room and really screw Sorry. [00:54:30] Just because I'm all like that, I'm also gonna say that I haven't got any pretty diagrams to draw. I've got no wonderful power points to display. You're just gonna have to sit and watch me and listen to me. Blurb on. OK, um, one of the things that I've been learning through my lifetime and it's quite a long one is that it's really important to give people the tools to resolve [00:55:00] issues themselves. It's no good. I mean, we were talking about it this morning. I don't know if you were in that session about, you know, West is best and we go in and we tell people what to do and how to live their lives and stuff. But I'm gonna go a little bit against that, because when it comes to housing, I firmly believe that social housing is incredibly important. And right now our current current government is screwing with that Social [00:55:30] housing is a service which is provided by governments in order to ensure the most vulnerable have a roof over their head. In my opinion, it is in fact, a right and not a luxury. The government is making huge changes to its policies relating to social housing, and these will have direct effects on many people from within our own communities. As a New Zealand has managed the majority of social housing stock on behalf of the government. But recent changes have seen this task [00:56:00] being handed over to the Ministry of Social Development. Um, I've recently, um, had a bit of dealing with um, an organisation called Body Positive, which is an HIV support group founded by and run by, um, people living with HIV A. I DS and the, um Bruce Kilmister from the organisation is really concerned about MS D taking over the running of, um housing because he's in fear of, um, [00:56:30] people with HIV not meeting the right criteria and being thrown out from their homes. Part of the thing for not only people living with HIV but people who are, um, in a minority is to establish themselves in their community. And one of the ways of doing that, especially if you don't have access to work, is to do that from where you're living and if you're suddenly if you've been living in one place for 12, 15, 20 years and through changes of government making, you asked to move from that [00:57:00] home because they want to pull it down and sell land off. That's gonna really mess with your head and make it really difficult for you to continue living a happy, healthy existence. So, yeah, Bruce, um, has quite a concern about what's gonna happen with, um He's particularly concerned with gay men living with HIV aids, but it's gonna have an effect on anybody. And what is gonna happen around MS D running looking after the the housing sector? Um, earlier this year, the lovely Nick Smith, [00:57:30] the so-called minister for housing, announced plans to transfer 12,000 state houses to community groups and charities. And on one hand, that might look like a really cool idea to get allow people who, um, deal with those who are in need of housing to be actually providing the housing and helping the right people get into the get into the homes that they need. But in my daytime job that I do working at Otago University, um, public health and the housing sector, [00:58:00] we've come to learn that one of the biggest charities that want to take on as many of these houses as they possibly can is our lovely friends at the Salvation Army. And I'm sure I don't need to explain to anybody around here the history that our communities have with the Salvation Army. So anybody who is, um, trans or queer in any aspect, or even a street worker or a sex worker [00:58:30] who rocks on up to the Salvation Army and says I need a house, Please. I don't think they're gonna get particularly, very far. And this, I think, is dangerous in the fact that it could cause people to return back into the closet in order. If you if you're desperate for somewhere to live and your only option in your area is to go to the Salvation Army and you've used up every resource you possibly can think of and this is your last opportunity, people are gonna put themselves back in the closet, and that's really unhealthy. [00:59:00] Unfortunately, um, in our communities, we are really, really overrepresented in the statistics in relation to mental health issues. It's a big problem, So being able to to have so having to, um, put yourself back in the closet. Deny who you are. Behave in a different manner just in order. To be able to get yourself a home is incredibly problematic because, in turn, having a home having a place to live in a sense of space, a sense of your own [00:59:30] somewhere to call your own space that's really important to your good mental health. I mean, we all know that those of us that are lucky to have somewhere to live it's your own little space. Even if it's just a room in a shared flat, it's yours. It's somewhere that you can make to look like your own space, something that's really relatable to who you are and represents who you are. So if you're living in constant fear of not being able to be who you are because you're terrified of being evicted because your landlord is a Salvation [01:00:00] Army or some other church organisation or some other group that's not going to that has no understanding of what it means to be other than heterosexual, that mental health status is going to be really, really compromised, and I think that's a really big issue. One of the other things that is really concerning. To me in Wellington right now is the lack of emergency housing for our youth. And I know my wee friend here. Cathy [01:00:30] will understand that as well. We have over the last two or three years had real issues. With youth being thrown out of their homes and having nowhere to go. There's nowhere in Wellington that is a fixed place where people can go and knock on the door and say, I really need some help. I really need to have a place to stay for a few days. A few weeks, however long, um, I did have a bit more to say, but I'm kind of Yeah, keeping in mind the time, So I'm gonna stop there. But if [01:01:00] anyone wants to come and talk to me about it, either the rest of today or any time ever come and talk to me because I think it's a really it's a really big issue and something that we need to be working on because it is one of those areas that we can't fix. Social housing is something that the government needs to be providing, not removing. Thanks. Um, I'm gonna spend even probably less time. Um, [01:01:30] uh, I was trying to think of being racking my brains and therefore not really thinking about what? What the hell I'm going to say. I tweet on economics and Z, and I'm not an economist. I'm quite keen on, um, economic ideas, Um, if only if only just simply to sort of in my semiretirement to sort of try and separate out from the kind of things one hears. What? Some economic truth. Basically, um, [01:02:00] I I recently, um, responded to, um uh the the UN S. Um uh, review of Human Rights in New Zealand. Um, and I looked at the the report that the Human Rights Commission, um, had done, and I noticed that there was nothing in it about people in their old age. Um, and [01:02:30] we're we're in a conference in which we're trying to to think about, um, everybody, um and I was trying to to sort of work out Well, what am I going to say about economics that say works against the kind of, um, divisions that frequently exist? Um, it's not uncommon to hear, um, that older people described as wealthy. [01:03:00] Um uh, bluing. Uh uh. Two houses, three houses, um, stacked up with pensions and and well-being. Um, and so and I and I And I must admit part of my response to, um, the Human Rights Commission's draught. Um, I haven't read the the final version, but but fundamentally, it was, um, wondering why? [01:03:30] I mean, wondering if they had actually come to agree with those same opinions, because it's quite obvious to me that, um, many people who are older are also poor. Um, and it's not uncommon to, um to read about, um, people being abused in in care, um, for care, um, facilities themselves to be rarely properly evaluated and policed, regulated, [01:04:00] really? For major investments to be made, um, in the care sector, um, which, actually, substantially is going bust in in the UK. In fact, um, and there's a tendency for me to believe anyway, that, um, care provision, um, broadly is following the same sort of path as it has done in the UK over here in in New Zealand. Um, given a huge boost in the eighties, of course, by [01:04:30] deregulation. So, um, recently, we've had two very good studies. Uh, two very good books published, um, one is called inequality, um, a New Zealand crisis. And, um, the other one is affordable housing. Um, and though I don't really like referring people to books because it's not everybody's things, um, certainly that they are [01:05:00] a very good guide, actually, um, historically, which is most important, actually, because, um, I think if you're younger, you might not fully understand how things were done 40 years ago. Um, and since it's been a huge economic change in approach over the last 40 50 years, there was a There was a, well, what's turned out to be a very brief period of 20 years after the Second World War in which many developed countries had very good welfare [01:05:30] systems. Um, the remaining years have been ones in which, economically, um, the conditions the the the the the wealth, if you like, held by us all in common have been reduced simply because the economics have been ones in which, um, income has flowed to the very rich, in fact, and, uh, since 2008, that's been the pattern even more so. There was a drop in wealth [01:06:00] because people lost a lot of money when things crashed. But they've more often than not made up for that. So I was thinking, I'm probably getting towards the end of of what I might use say, I was thinking, Well, what what can I say about, um uh, the last, um, 60 years say, Well, my economic perspective is one in which you you're wise. [01:06:30] I think to understand that if you're 20 then what you're doing now, economically and over the rest of your life can be what you're actually living off, Um, in when you retire or when you need to start work. Um, the the normal way to look at that is to think ahead and save. Um, I, I think the realistic way to look after yourself, um, when you're 60 or 70 or whatever when you want to stop working [01:07:00] is actually to look at what what society is accumulating now out of your work, um, in the form of assets. And we've got the asset sales that are coming up now. But the kind of assets I think are the ones that as I was a young person, I lived off. Basically, I lived off what my parents and grandparents contributed. I lived off their hospitals, their schools, their roads, Um, and all the the the [01:07:30] improvements that I live off my education. Um, I lived off all of what I conceived to be, um, accumulated the commons really in society. So I think the realistic way of of viewing older age when you could no longer work as it is, of course, for young, uh, for Children who can't work or people who are disabled is actually to look at society itself as the the vehicle for looking after people. It's a process of renewal. [01:08:00] Um, it's a process of renewal in which, um now, just by virtue of the work you do, um, your contributions whether paid or not, um, you allow, um, the rest of society to accumulate the assets that you have an entitlement to in older age. Um, I don't think the the the the most effective way of of looking after yourself is to save in commercial private pensions. I believe it's, [01:08:30] um, by political and economic policies that allow society to to accumulate wealth in common. Um, that allows people to be supported across their life from childhood, um, to old age. Great. Um, I wanted to give a one big thank you for all the panellists and getting up here and sharing with us some of their ideas and some of their experiences about how we can come together and fight for, survive or fight for more. Some of [01:09:00] the practical aspects of that and some of the thoughts about how we can build some campaigns around, that I want to open it up for discussion now, or any questions that any members of the audience had about what what we can be doing to fight for more in terms of housing, housing, health care or school to make it more accessible for queers or share with us any of your experiences that you've had did England want to legal? I appreciate the yeah, um, do you know what? Like [01:09:30] in terms of, like the school curriculum, the high school curriculum at the moment where where does the formal curriculum stand when it comes to, um, especially Trans? Um, people like passing on knowledge about those things. As far as I'm aware, there's nothing in the curriculum that, um says that you have to be teaching anything around train and the [01:10:00] start of the curriculum. There's nothing specifically in terms of subject breakdowns, for instance, and health, where you might expect that there's nothing specific and covered there. There are what are called, um, values at the start of the curriculum that every school should be explicitly teaching and fostering within student school. Those do kind of cover things like respect for diversity, which technically should also include general sexuality. Um, and there's also responsibilities [01:10:30] for schools in terms of, um, the next, the national administrative guidelines, that again, that they must respect the diversity and provide role models for all students. Whether or not people interpret those in the right way, though, is the problem. But technically they are, and they can be used. Yeah, they can argue. I don't think there's any. There's nothing specific about it, but yeah, there is, um, those kinds of values that could be used and interpreted. But there's also I think, I mean, in [01:11:00] terms of er I mean, I think there's sections in the ER in in terms of, um how, um, Maori and Pacifica, um, like young people are kind of included within that, and I think it's really important. I don't think there's anything specifically here. Social schools aren't being marked, for instance, or regulated on how they treat their, um, sexual, sexual and gender diverse young people just on there. I forget that the launch, they [01:11:30] you know, the article that I showed you about a report that it's coming out this week. It's been launched up in Auckland. Um, also, we did manage to meet with Chris Hipkins, and he's very, very receptive to quite, um, rigorous reform of all facets of education. It was really heartening. This was only I think, like, 23 weeks ago, So I'm ever hopeful. And, um, he seemed very genuine about transforming what you notice as nags and so [01:12:00] forth. So cool. Also, Cassie, um, you you gave us some stats on on on on Google. The the, um, section writers. What has anything been done on on the, um, on pictures or or people that, you know, um, I'm not quite sure about teachers. I mean, we've got a teacher here in the room, so that might be quite useful. [01:12:30] Um, yeah. I mean, we've had some kind of discussions with the teachers, but I think that, um, the people today does have a You have, um, some steps that I'm not aware of, but that's, um, specifically a loose organisation that you can affiliate yourself with. It's not a survey that might catch more people. I know. I am always quite surprised by that. I mean, um, in terms of I go to teaching, there always seems to be some people there, [01:13:00] so it could be so. I mean, it could be a very positive in some could be a very positive thing. I think that's another thing, and that's not something that I talked about here. But it is a really big thing. And in terms of staff, who are we being able to feel comfortable enough to come out? Because I think it's just like my experience. The first time that I ever heard about someone being queer was a teacher at the local high school, and everyone was like Oh, star a lesbian. But it was the first time that I'd ever even heard [01:13:30] the word lesbian being used. And so I think there's a huge amount of power in being able to be out, and I know, for instance, at my high school I've since gone back and had discussions with people about what I do now. And they're like, That's really interesting because actually, we had, you know, gay people, gay teachers, and they were really told to not say anything and to stay in the closet. And it's a real issue if you don't even have your adults and your staff being able to come out. Um, I mean, what kind of standard does that set for any young people? [01:14:00] Yeah, so thank you for bringing that up. And I think that kind of set will be really sure. Can I just say, also that, um, I've also looked at the youth I should report using it for research that I'm doing. Um, And in the latest round of information that came out, a lot of the young people reported saying that if they were aware of queer student queer teachers in their school, or at least an acceptance by the teachers, they were more inclined to come out and also feel safe in doing so. So having those kind of figures [01:14:30] is incredibly important for making the whole environment a heck of a lot safer, and it won't only make it a heck of a lot safer for all the queer kids. It will make it a heck of a lot safer for everybody. Anecdotally, we heard too, that, um either you seek out potentially one or two things, either. Guidance counsellor, You haphazardly find your way to schools out of the Queer Strike Alliance. Um, which isn't good, I think. [01:15:00] Yeah, I have another question. So this is for economics. Sorry for your name. Um, Jeff, what do you think of this possible? Like a staggered retirement age and the impact that it might possibly have on maybe, Like we might, um, that there's a real problem in that that the economy doesn't have figures about lesbians and gays and queer people and [01:15:30] and transsexuals. And it doesn't have any particularly strong information about what we might expect over the span of our lives. Which is why I didn't really talk about it. Um, I think it the following general rule. I think it it can only be worse for people who are discriminated against and who are likely to be discriminated against across across their lifetime and possibly accumulate the effects of [01:16:00] discrimination. Um, so that would be a broad principle to apply in the absence of hard figures or stuff like that or policy research in terms of staggered, um, retirement ages, I must admit, I find it difficult to forgive the Labour Party for offering to be responsible and change the retirement age from 65 to 67. Um, the reason I find I think it's unforgivable is [01:16:30] I think it was opportunist at the time because they're into proving themselves to be responsible. And I think it's a false responsibility. Um, I think that there's a lot of occupations and there's a lot of life circumstances to shorten people's lives that forgetting about their contribution, the amount of contribution people made. Who cares about that as far as I'm concerned. But they would have been working during that period of time, or they would have tried to work and [01:17:00] might have been stopped, but they would have contributed in countless other ways. I mean, part of my submission to the UN thing was about, um, the ways one could be, you know, contribute over a lifetime more than enough to look after you in your older age, and I think it's important to establish establish that principle as soon as possible. but people who? Um I worked, um, in a whole number of industries. People who got thrown out of work. Um, when the economy crashed in the eighties, [01:17:30] um, that there's a whole bunch of people who will live after they get to the point who will live short lives. In fact, I think there are some age should rise relative. Um, no, I'm not. Actually, I think one should have a reasonably low and flexible approach to pensions and stopping work. Um, if people stop work, it doesn't necessarily mean that they've stopped contributing to society. And I think that's an important point. Um, [01:18:00] it's does that sort of cover, and it's it's easy to pole to to rush into polemics. But broadly, um, you asked me. That's my sort of way of responding a comment. Really? Um, I. I think that probably if I think of the last half dozen suicidal situations I've been dealing with, or except one of them [01:18:30] would have been qualitatively eased by access to good health. Um, now every one of those has been a queer or trans situation, but I think actually a lot of councillors don't think of this because councillors believe everything goes on in your mind. Um, I, I, uh II I think that, um this would be true for councillors whose practise was in general and in in the population as a whole, [01:19:00] um, domestic crises, any any kind of personal crisis that you can think of a very good proportion of them would not is are not about housing, but would be qualitatively eased by access to housing alternatives. Um, and and it it seems to me extraordinary that, uh, as a community, we don't find ways to create more choices, opportunities, opportunities [01:19:30] for more different kinds of housing. There clearly needs to be risk by housing for people in crisis on A on A on a much more massive scale than we have now. But that that, you know, one of the things which keeps bad marriages together is the fact that it's very difficult to leave a marriage without physically leaving your Children. Right. So, um, [01:20:00] the the thing the thing which holds the marriage system together, actually is a shortage of housing. Um, and and, um, we're not going to transcend the marriage by, uh, talking about wonderful ideas of polyamory and things like that we're gonna transcend it by making it possible. And so, um, I, I think that we should be focused on [01:20:30] on, uh, you know, ways of getting accessible housing. It's only 11 thing you ought to be doing. But it seems to me and and and from where I stand in, in in in terms of my daily life, dealing with crises among real people, it seems pretty damn urgent. II I share Bill and Sarah's concern around MS D undertaking housing because I've I've been a case manager [01:21:00] at work and income, and it's hard enough to keep up with the A flood of people you know that are coming in. Um, and then when you're not having someone at your desk, you're processing, and I'm sure you would all experienced the delays and, um, bureaucracy, processing applications and so forth. The other thing? Um, the case manager's eyes glaze over because it's it's very hierarchical, and you just follow your job description. You process [01:21:30] the benefit, you process hardship and you process supplementary assistance. We had this budgeting advisor who took time out of his day to come down and present to us. They didn't give a shit. And then this family violence coordinator who's employed by work and income to oversee those referrals. I don't know if you know you remember that it's not OK Campaign and you've got 21 22 year old. You know, I've done a year at Uni year, and can you imagine [01:22:00] how they would respond to someone actually disclosing family violence? They wouldn't have a clue what to do. So I have grave concerns that those case managers are going to take on housing. I think you know, a lot of them mean well, but they just do not have the capacity in the eight hour day to address benefits and housing. And they won't understand the complexities that people come to the table with around their housing issues. [01:22:30] So I I had something around like 50. These studies recently point to the fact that that 50% of the people in New Zealand have virtually no wealth at all, and that the people who do have wealth net wealth, it's tied up in their houses. Um, it it seems to be utterly insane to have a housing policy based upon the mortgage. Really, Um, and to be selling [01:23:00] off. Still selling off public housing and not building new Um, how how on earth can we have affordable housing? Um, if the if the median age the median wage is 24,000 a year, I mean, how can we be talking about affordable mortgage housing? Um, it it it seems to be it. It encourages, um, housing bubbles. And it encourages people to think that the only option for [01:23:30] them to to improve their lives is to own their own house. One of the, um, interesting statistics to to to to allow people to understand the benefits of social housing and how building more houses is imperative is that in Christchurch there was a big earthquake. We all know about that, right? Same time Japan had a big earthquake in the first. I think two years since both of those quakes New [01:24:00] Zealand was proud to announce it had built 500 odd houses. Great news. Do you know how many Japan built in the same time frame? Over 70,000. Their government provided housing for people who they knew were desperate and needed somewhere to live. So they got in and did it. They didn't build million dollar fancy police, police stations. They built houses. I think [01:24:30] on that note. Uh, given the time, I think we should probably bring the session. Not, um I want to thank our speakers as well. Thank everyone. Here. Um, we have, uh, afternoon tea. I think we're being served, and then we'll have our final afternoon session. So thank you, everybody.

IRN: 779
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ATL REF: OHDL-004278
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089572
TITLE: Session 13 - Beyond conference
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VOICES: Ali Nissenbaum; Nadie Abu-Shanab; Sara Fraser
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Abu Ghraib; Ali Nissenbaum; Aotearoa New Zealand; Beyond conference (2013); Campaign for Marriage Equality; Dorian Society; Edward Said; Gay Liberation Front; Grant Robertson; Ian Anderson; Iran; Iraq; Israel; Joan of Arc; Karl Liebknecht; Leslie Feinberg; Malala Yousafzai; Nadie Abu-Shanab; New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF); Nigeria; Olympic Games; Palestine; Palestinian Queers for Boycott Divestment and Sanctions; Pink washing; Queer liberation; Russia; Sarah Schulman; Shakti Community Council; Stonewall riots (1969); Sylvia Rivera; The Persistent desire: a femme-butch reader; The Queer Avengers (Wellington); Transgender Warriors: Making History from Joan of Arc to Dennis Rodman; Wellington; Wellington High School; activism; alQaws for Sexual and Gender Diversity in Palestinian Society; civil rights; civil unions; class; classism; colonisation; discrimination; equality; family; homonationalism; homonormativity; homophobia; human rights; imperialism; law; liberation; marriage equality; nationalism; oppression; orientalism; politics; queer; rape; religion; sexual abuse; torture; transphobia; visibility
DATE: 13 October 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington High School, 251-281 Taranaki Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the session: Imperialism, Nationalism and Queer Liberation.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: OK, Good morning, everybody. Um, sorry for the slight delay, but we'll get things underway. Now. This morning we have, um, Ian Anderson. Ian is a queer student active in socialist politics. Ali is also going to speak to us third generation central colonist in Palestine, an arch feminist and Palestine Solidarity activist. And MC is going [00:00:30] to speak as well. Um, although not originally on this panel, she It's great that she's able to speak with us this morning. Um, she's a member of Shati, a feminist organisation working to end family violence in Asian, Asian, Middle Eastern and African communities in Aotearoa and Australia. And we have another speaker who will be hopefully arriving shortly. Um, which is who is Nadia is a teacher and, um, active Palestine. Solidarity work. I end up, get things underway. Cool. Thanks. [00:01:00] So, um yeah. So this session we're gonna be talking about, um, imperialism, nationalism and queer liberation. Um, and I've just got a sort of warning beforehand that, um, there'll be some discussion of torture and sexual violence, so you know that that's just people know. And, um Yeah, OK, so I'll start with, um, something that was one of the initial reasons why we wanted to have this discussion. [00:01:30] Um, and I'm not against the people who participated in this in this particular action I participated. Um, I get where it's coming from, but I think it shows some of the problems with, uh, with where, where politics are at right now. Uh, and a lot of the, um, kind of imperialist world. So, um, this this was, uh, a call out a call for a, um a a rally in solidarity with people in Russia and globally, uh, against, [00:02:00] uh, against queer oppression. It said, uh, citizens will march and rally in cities across the globe Rio, London, Berlin, New York, Sydney and more standing up against inequality and discrimination. The time has come where we send a message to countries like Russia, Uganda, Iran and every homo slash trans oppressive nation that all humans are created equal and deserve freedom. We must take a stand. So, what do people get out of that? Have we, um is [00:02:30] there any like, um, issues? People can see with that? It implies that countries like the UK and Australia and America aren't home own trans prison nations. Yeah, exactly. So for example, in a country where, um, trans women are 20 times more likely to be imprisoned than than other people. Uh, that, um, that those those nations aren't trans oppressive. So it's like there's a set of nations which are which are not hormone [00:03:00] trans oppressive, and a set of nations that are, uh so there's Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. So, um, and on the one side, you have all humans are created equal, which is obviously from all men are created equal. So it's growing from the US Constitution. It's, um, tying in. [00:03:30] Uh, so this is kind of tying in, um, like queer liberation in theory with like with the United States in particular and with allegiance with the United States. Um, And so it sets up this, uh, this this two sided kind of binary thing. E equality, freedom on one side and also a minority world imperialist nations on one side and then home on trans of inequality and discrimination and majority world nations on on the other side, or at least nations not aligned [00:04:00] with the US in a lot of cases. So Russia, for example, um and then, uh, we've got so and So this kind of is like the idea of the West versus the rest is kind of one of the ways you could kind of frame that. Um uh, what are some other differences? Uh, one difference. We could see if the binary here is kind of US and Russia, which obviously Russia was kind of the great, you know, the great evil for US imperialism for a long [00:04:30] time. But one comparison you can make is that the first US state legalised sodomy in 1962. And it was legalised nationwide in 2003, Um, whereas the first legalisation of homosexuality in Russia, which was arguably the first legalisation after setting up the kind of legal infrastructure that policed homosexuality in Europe uh was in 1917. So this isn't to say that Russia has necessarily a better record than the US at all. It's to say that the way we understand these differences are like ideological and the fact that we're the fact [00:05:00] that it's considered normal that the US definitely has a better record, and the rest of the world definitely has a worse record, is, um is obviously a distortion. So this is Orientalism. Um, so it's kind of the idea of the West against the rest, which, you know, Edward talked about this. That, um, the basic distinction between the east and the West is the starting point. Uh uh, to, uh, for elaborating theories concerning the Orient. Um, so and the Orient, obviously is a is kind of a construction here, and is [00:05:30] it conflates a lot of different situations into one? Um, and he says the whole point is not that it's a misrepresentation of some Oriental essence, uh, which he doesn't for a moment believe, but that it operates, as representations usually do for a purpose according to a tendency in a specific historical, intellectual and even economic setting. So, in other words, these devices are being used to justify a certain kind of domination. It's not. It's not necessarily that they're accurate or inaccurate, but that they are being used in a certain [00:06:00] way to serve a certain kind of power. Um, so how did we get to this kind of division of the world? Because it hasn't always existed, and it won't always exist. Um, uh, So Leslie Feinberg, um, argues in transgender warriors. Um, that a human history were compressed into a year. 360 days would consist of communal societies with normalised gender and sexual diversity. So, for example, um uh, uh, and And Samoa is an is an example of this, uh, [00:06:30] Or, you know, and, um, you know, there's a huge range of gender and sexual diversities. Do you see gender and sexual diversity throughout human history And that only the last five days of human history, uh, will consist of class societies with a sort of punitive Gen, uh, punitively sort of policed, um, gender binary and a punitively policed, um, family structure. Um, so again, how do we get here? And this is again. It's compressing [00:07:00] thousands of years of history in Feinberg's terms in five days and here into a few minutes, So it's gonna be simplistic. Um, but, uh, this is kind of this is looking specifically at the the history that happened in Europe because Europe was in the, um was then the, uh, the, uh, the exporter of a particular model of gender and sexuality worldwide. Uh, you know, through colonisation. So you had the emergence of class society, Um, and the need to, uh you. You had, um, the emergence [00:07:30] of, you know, a surplus. So, uh, so you could, um You could, uh, people could rely on the labour of others, Uh, and to so then to to in order to protect this private property and protect patriarchal inheritance, you saw the enforcement of this new stripped gender binary. So an early sort of, uh, an early early on in the sort of Juda Christian tradition. And, you know, in, uh, in in Deon and you first started to see, you know, prohibition of eu saying, [00:08:00] you know, there will be no people who are wounded in the stones, uh, cannot be in the kingdom of the Lord, so And this was like to do with policing, uh, previously existing pagan pagan traditions. Uh, you know, various traditions of gender, gender and sexual diversity, uh, to protect this new patriarchal private property system. So there there was a global expansion, uh, from here. So the, uh, expansion to the Americas, Uh, which which, uh, began to impose the gender binary. [00:08:30] And the struggle against this colonisation was also, you know, was also a struggle for, um for these, um, these forms of society which, uh, which were more, um, which had more gender and sexual diversity. So, for example, later on, when you had crazy horse, uh, resisting resisting US uh, resisting colonisation. Um, crazy horse had, uh, had had names, uh, granted to him, uh, two spirit names granted to him and, uh, had relationships with two spirit people. So, [00:09:00] uh, and whereas the colonial authorities worldwide were trying to enforce this kind of strict strip new gender system. So, for example, here in in this country, um, uh, there was a worry that, um, men were the men and the colonies were having sex with each other too much, so they had to bring more women over so that they could set up nuclear families. Uh, so this is a very a very deliberate strategy of, uh, of enforcing this new system, but I'm kind of skipping ahead of myself there because, uh, then from the emergence of feudalism, [00:09:30] you had the capitalist revolutions in the Americas and in France, uh, and which, you know, which kind of created a a new kind of a gender binary, a new gender division of labour. So you had the the division between, um particularly unpaid women's work and, um, and paid men's work. Uh, and with that, uh, from colonisation the establishment of global imperialism. So that's economic, military and cultural dominance of a global majority by a global minority. [00:10:00] Um, and all that time you've had resistance movements. So there were the European, uh, peasants movements, uh, used cross dressing as a form of resistance. Feinberg claims Jonah A as a transgender warrior because, um, they were sentenced, Um, not strictly speaking, uh, for resisting, resisting, like the dominance of the church militarily but for cross dressing. And there were also folk heroes like, uh, Rebecca and her daughters, uh, who cross dressed when they were [00:10:30] smashing, smashing tollgates, among other things. So there was a as a peasant form of peasant resistance in in Europe, also in struggles against colonisation. So I mentioned a crazy horse who had, um who you know as well as struggling for land and all that were struggling for the protection of of a culture which was, which was more diverse in terms of gender and sexuality and through, um, new, um, new workers movements. You saw you saw new struggles for, uh, for gender and sexual liberation. So, [00:11:00] um, so you saw, um, in the late late 19th, early 20th century, uh, struggles that, um That culminated, for example, in the Russian Revolution, which I previously mentioned which, um, which saw the, you know, legalisation of something which had been prohibited only in the last last few centuries. Um, only relatively recently, you could say, um and then urban struggles. Uh, so you had, um, gender nonconforming folk, uh, clashing with [00:11:30] police in these in these in the new sort of urban urban settings. Uh, and out of, uh, out of all this, um, and this sort of particular set of historical contradictions, you saw the emergence of a politics of gay visibility. So there were sort of for a long time before what we now know is gave visibility, but only really, in the last century and a half. Maybe you had, uh, the establishment [00:12:00] of men's sort of homosexual organisations. So they were kind of fairly, um, you could say fairly conservative. Uh, so there was the homosexual law Reform Society in the UK. The Medi Society in the US, uh, the door society here, uh, and those predated Stonewall. They won some legal reforms. Uh, and at the at the same time, you had the the street level struggles that were happening, uh, which also predated Stonewall. And then in Stonewall riots in 1969 and the imperialist world, you saw, um, [00:12:30] the emergence of the gay Liberation front. So this was in New York and the U, uh, in the context of, um, much bigger, much bigger struggles. Um, you saw riots where, uh, where basically, um, people took on people, took on police and, uh, there. So people like Sylvia, um uh, Sylvia Rivera. Um, who were, um, who were involved in, uh uh, other struggles at the time were quite, uh, were quite were at the forefront of that, [00:13:00] Uh, and out of that, there was a politics of of gay visibility. So people marching on the streets saying, You know, we're here, that kind of thing. Um, and that momentarily kind of, um, merged a number of struggles, but they quickly, um, broke apart again. So, um, so in the early seventies, there was a split between the the trans groups and, um, the gay groups, Uh, so from the gay Liberation front group you had then street transaction revolutionaries, which was a group and the, um [00:13:30] the more sort of gay rights groups, like, um, the Human Rights campaign. Uh, and so, over the following decades, the new gay movement, uh, won some legal reforms. Uh, so removal from, uh, from the DS M The, um the sort of the the sort of, uh, no longer being a mental illness. Uh, you saw a legalisation. You saw civil unions, Uh, now marriage, uh, in the US, the appeal of don't ask, don't tell. Quite recently, [00:14:00] um, so and so now in this context, um, this, uh, with this, you know, this gay movement that's won these struggles. You see what gets termed homo noma? Uh, this is by by sort of discourse, theorists, Relatively recently, uh, homo noma and Homo nationalism. So and the the the post Cold War US kind of emerged as the the only credible ideological option. The arbiter of feminism and freedom struggles. Um, and queer identity [00:14:30] is, um, queer. Queerness is kind of contingent or sort of reliant on these these wider structures of power. So we can't understand queerness without understanding its relationship to these wider structures of power. So to simplify Homo Noma, uh, could be sort of the, uh, an idea that benefits or as a form of struggle, that most benefits kind of white monogamous, uh, people who want to marry a member of the [00:15:00] same sex and, uh, have Children, which isn't necessarily anything against those people, but it's leaving everyone else behind. Um, And then there's, uh, Homo nationalism, which is kind of queerness that is contingent or reliant on structures of imperialist nationalism. So we can see Lady Gaga here where, um where? It's kind of, um, this queerness. She's in front of a US flag talking about Don't ask, don't tell talking about how our boys should be able. Our boys on the front line should be able to live out of the closet. [00:15:30] So it's this queer queerness that's validated through going out and killing people in Afghanistan and Iraq. Um and so, uh, so just just be a, uh uh And this is this is obviously, um, part of how the culture dominance of imperialism is justified. Uh says the ascendancy of whiteness does not require heterosexuality so much as it requires heteronormative or its memory in the form of Homo Noma. So? [00:16:00] So Part of the cultural cultural dominance of imperialism is justified through these, um, gender and sexual systems. So, um, Abu Ghraib, uh, which, which is an example. Uh, just be four goes into it. But And this is obviously what I was, uh, warning about. So, um, if people if people aren't comfortable with this, you know, let someone let me know kind of thing, but, uh, or at least or yeah. Anyway, So, um Anyway, uh, so [00:16:30] this in in terms of Abu Ghraib, which was, uh, I'm sure people are aware of a case where a number of photos of, um, of people being tortured, um uh, were in Afghanistan were sorry. No. Were, uh, were released. Um, and this, uh, there's an aspect of that was that this narrative of cultural difference, uh, was used to plan these methods of torture. So there was kind of this whole thing of Well, [00:17:00] uh, in in in a lot of discussions of of torture. Uh, by, you know, by in the US documents, there was a discussion that well, Arab men and Muslim men are not comfortable with homosexuality, so we need to force them into these situations in order to in order to, um, torture them and then to criticise the torture, Uh, people are saying, Well, you know, people, they're not respecting cultural difference, you know, they're not respecting the Arab men and Muslim men aren't comfortable with, uh, with these forms of sexuality. [00:17:30] Not that you know that a Western person, like you know, would, you know, would be obviously perfectly comfortable with being tortured and forced to do things against their will and to do sexual things against their will, as if as if it was the Arab men's homophobia, that was that was the torture and not not the actual And you know, not the actual violation of consent and the methods of torture. So, um, Jess [00:18:00] says, given the unbridled homophobia, among other phobias demonstrated by the US guards, it is ironic yet predictable that the US emerges as sexually exceptional, less homophobic and more tolerant of homosexuality and less tainted by misogyny and fundamentalism than the oppressed Modest in Middle East. Um, so even now with this, you know, with this clearly like violent and sexually violent, um, form [00:18:30] of, uh, form of sort of imperialism. Still, uh, as as, says, the Orient, um symbolises the space of repression and perversion, and the side of freedom has has been relocated to Western identity. And at the same time, imperialist violence against women is normalised because it's it's not considered exceptional that women are raped. Uh, and, uh, during war time, it's considered exceptional that men are forced to do sexual things against their will during war time. Uh, so [00:19:00] you had, uh, Mubarak Dahir, Uh, who is a, um, a gay, A gay man of Arab descent. Um, talks about how there's this claim by people in the gay and lesbian community that the invasion and occupation of Iraq is not a gay issue. Uh, and this and he says that it crumbled here because, um, because as a gay man and a person of Arab descent, he felt a double. He felt a double sting, and he was wondering he was wondering, Essentially, [00:19:30] was the problem that they were, um, was it more was the Was it considered more despicable that they were performing gay sex or that they were Arabs? And that this was that being considered a form of yeah, um and so he he said that these are These are essentially the same issues for me. Um uh, OK. And so more recently, I think an an example of Of how, um, homo nationalism has [00:20:00] played out, which is bringing us back to the initial kind of discussion I started from is, uh is the recent stuff around Russia, Uh, where I think Russia and Eastern Europe generally, depending on circumstances and depending on depending on power, can be cast as kind of white or as Oriental, uh, depending on what what purpose and what sort of power is being served. So, for example, during the Cold War, Russia was kind of, um was, you know, the the Bolsheviks were cast, as you [00:20:30] know, as as Jewish, you know, long eyebrows kind of car, you know, Eastern Oriental caricatures. So depending on what purpose is being served, they can be cast as white or oriental. Um, and just so, um, and I think the the way a lot of the Russia stuff has been cast has been quite Orientalist. So, um so the you've seen obviously, recently, there's been a re entrenchment of homophobia. It's part of a a sort of nation building project. [00:21:00] It also involves attacks on ethnic minorities. And it's because of, like, an economic insecurity that, uh, that that these groups are being scapegoated. And so, uh, LGBT groups in Russia have advi advised against boycotts, uh, advised against the Olympics boycott, for example. Uh, and whereas a lot of prominent gay men and gay groups have called have called for boycotts, Um, but for particularly boycotting the Olympics, moving it to Vancouver, which is, you know, which is colonised land and the previous [00:21:30] Olympics in Vancouver. Uh, there were there were boycott struggles because of that. Um, and whereas the LGBT groups in Russia argue for a politics of visibility, uh, the the Western groups aren't really paying attention and have even called for boycotts on supposedly Russian vodka, which actually isn't produced in Russia. So actually not paying attention to to the situation and just kind of thinking they can go ahead and do it. Do this for other people. Um, so what does this mean for a politics of global queer [00:22:00] queer equality? Which is? That was the slogan that was used for this action in Civic Square and solidarity with Russia. And it's it's, uh, a slogan that I like. I like the idea of it. But what would it mean? What would politics of global queer equality look like? Um, I think partly it means paying attention to the voices of gender minorities in the majority world and in general, paying attention to the voices of people you are solid with and not not trying to act [00:22:30] for people. Uh, it means, uh, struggles for gender and sexual liberation must also mean struggles for cultural and economic liberation. And those things can't be entirely divorced. Uh, and there's a couple of quotes which I think describe, um uh, What? I see this as which are, uh, nobody's free until everybody's free. So instead of this idea of people in the West as free and other people as unfree that, um, that nobody's free until everybody's free. Um, and [00:23:00] also a quote from Carl Livni, who is, uh, someone who? A Communist who opposed World War One. Uh, when many of the Socialists of the time were supporting World War One said, um or the reformists, he said the main enemy is at home. So for us, I think, uh, for particularly, you know, white people in the imperialist world. The main enemy is at home. Uh, that's me. Uh, and we'll move on. Yeah, right. Thank you. Yeah. Um, [00:23:30] so I'm specifically talking about pink washing, but I kind of wanted to start by fleshing out some of the things that Ian introduced. So, like Ian said, by home normative, we mean a normative way of being gay. That's the idea. But the gay person is someone who's cisgender monogamous, white, middle class, you know, Got lots of those pink dollars. Definitely not disabled, because [00:24:00] disabled people aren't even supposed to have a sexuality. And the normative gay someone who just wants to be equal just wants to be able to serve their country in the military, to get a job and get married and have babies and fit into heteronormative society, you know? So this is the person who's really nonthreatening because they don't want to destroy marriage of a nuclear family or any of those really important institutions. And they're just like you, and they should [00:24:30] have equality. Homo nationalism stands for homo normative nationalism, and it's about the way that the because of LGBT U guys, but actually usually just G and LG gets used to prop up nationalism and to justify imperialism and militarism. So, for example, when people use, um, arguments about Arab culture being homophobic [00:25:00] or Muslim culture being homophobic, to justify imperialist views on countries like Iran or Afghanistan or Iraq, or in a on a more local level, I think we saw a lot of that in the kind of media discussion around the Marriage Equality Act where it was like, Oh, the problem is, um, Pacific Islanders. The culture is conservative and we're really religious and patriarchal and like these nice white people that totally support equality. [00:25:30] And I think it's worth thinking about the kind of correlation that exists between the social sense of some ques of normative gays and the guys of particularly anti Arab, anti Muslim racism. Because identity is always defined in opposition to someone. And it's like this one oppressed group or a section of it has been allowed into the fold of society of normative society at the expense [00:26:00] of someone else. Um, which, like Ian was saying, is about emphasising this dichotomy between the White West, which is modern and progressive and liberal, and the brown east. You know, Arabs and Muslims and South East Indians and other populations that are constructed as conservative and patriarchal and homophobic and violent and backwards and dangerous terrorists. Pink washing is specifically about [00:26:30] the way that GL BTU guys are used as a marketing strategy to whitewash over unethical behaviour. So we see that in the corporate world where we have this kind of gay friendly pink dollar marketing campaigns that are used to distract us from the way that corporations treat their workers and we also see it, for example, when the New Zealand Defence Force wins an award for being really inclusive of LGBT personnel, [00:27:00] which is a nice way of distracting us from the fact that the strategic interests that the New Zealand Defence Force is protecting usually aren't the interests of the people who actually live in the countries that are being invaded. For the purpose of this talk I'm going to specifically concentrate on is Israel as an example of pink washing. Um, and that is mostly because I'm Israeli or more accurately, I'm a secular colonist on Palestinian [00:27:30] land. I, um I'm not 100% sure how familiar you guys all are with the situation in Palestine at the moment, so I'm going to summarise it really quickly. So the yellow bits on the map are the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, collectively known as the occupied Palestinian territories in Gaza. Palestinians are living under siege in the West Bank. They [00:28:00] live under military occupation. The blue bits are the 1948 territory, which is more commonly known as Israel. And Palestinian citizens of Israel are subject to a whole lot of legal and institutional discrimination as well as discrimination on a personal level. So just one example. We have a hotline in Israel that people can phone to report Jewish women who are dating Palestinian men. Um, meanwhile, [00:28:30] there are 7 million Palestinian refugees who live in exile. It's the biggest refugee population in the world, and most of them live in refugee camps in neighbouring countries. So it's entire generations of people who've lived their whole lives in refugee camps. Um, so essentially, what we have here is an apartheid state, and maintaining an apartheid state requires you to do a whole lot of public relations work to convince the rest of the world that actually you [00:29:00] were a beacon of human rights and democracy and a light unto the nations and not an apartheid state at all. And that's where we end as your comes in. Brand Israel is part of this marketing campaign that the Israeli state has created which, UM, part of it is to promote Israel as a gay friendly country. Um and really, this is a two prolonged approach, on the one [00:29:30] hand promoting Israel as this modern, democratic, liberal country where women have equality and queer people have equality. And at the same time it's about constructing Arabs and Muslims in general, but specifically Palestinians as conservative and patriarchal and homophobic and violent. So it's again about that dichotomy of them and us. It's about situating Israel as part of the West and like the West [00:30:00] and situating Palestinians as part of the scary Terrorist East. So that's exactly the kind of orientalism that Ian was talking about. For example, I don't know if any of you have seen this image before it was circulated on the Internet. Um, does anyone know the history of of the pictures [00:30:30] here? OK, so first of all, the image on is a little bit misleading. The two soldiers and the photo aren't actually lovers, and one of them is heterosexual. The photo was staged by the Israeli Defence Force spokesperson's office. They got two of the soldiers in their service to post for this photo, and they posted it on their Facebook page with the caption. It's pre month. [00:31:00] Did you know that the ID F treats all of its soldiers equally? Let's see how many shares you can get through this photo. It was quite an embarrassment for them when it was later revealed that the entire thing was staged. Meanwhile, the immun on the left is completely incorrect. This photo isn't from Palestine, it's from Ivan, and it was circulated a lot in the western media. Um, I guess in the early two thousands, [00:31:30] um, the two boys in the photo were hanged by the Uranian State. The reason is unclear. Originally, Western media outlets were reporting, but they were hanged for having consensual sex with each avenue. But human rights NGO S didn't find any evidence that corroborates that, and later it emerged that it's more likely that they were hanged for raping a younger boy. Either way, it's horrific. You know the death penalty [00:32:00] is never OK, especially when it's used against Children. But this is an example of a way that information about human rights violations gets manipulated in order to justify imperialist intentions, whether it's against Palestinians or against UN. Oh, part of the ban, as Yale campaign has been about promoting as Yale as a gay tourism destination. And I guess it's, um, kind of a double win, because on the one hand it's a propaganda win for the [00:32:30] state. It's also good for the economy again, it's about this idea of pink dollars, but apparently all gays have millions of to spend. And so these guys, Vinland and Bruno, are the first gay couple to get married after France legalised same sex marriage earlier this year, Um, the CEO of Tel Aviv Global and Tourism heli or came up with this amazing marketing idea where she invited this couple to come and honeymoon [00:33:00] in Tel Aviv during Tel Aviv Pride Week. So, um, you actually have to congratulate here. It's a great PR plan, and she knew it, you know, she told The Times of Israel. The meaning beneath our mission is to go out in conversation about Tel Aviv for people to know that Tel Aviv is a place of tolerance, of business and tourism, a place beyond the conflict. You know, a place beyond the conflict that is built on the of ethnically cleansed villages but [00:33:30] nevertheless a place beyond the conflict. Um, Vincent told the media that for us, it's very important to be a bridge, especially here in the Middle East, so that what's happened in France and the way we are received in here can become an example for the rest of the Middle East. So there you have it again, um, imperialist countries like Israel and France as the beacon of enlightenment that will teach those backwards Middle East people how [00:34:00] you should be more tolerant. This kind of pink washing has found its way to New Zealand as well. Does anyone of you remember this plac ad? Um, yeah. So at queer overnight 2011, someone showed up with this, um, plaque? A. So here we have an event which lots of people here put heaps of work into organising. That was supposed to be about standing up [00:34:30] against re specifically trans phobia and homophobia, and somehow somebody managed to degale it and use it as an opportunity to incite discrimination and prejudice against Arab and Muslim people. Of course, sometimes pink washing is a lot subtler than that. Um, I read this in express a few months ago. It's about well, it's an opinion piece on how Auckland should have API Centre, but [00:35:00] as an example of the use of a gay cultural centre in Tel Aviv, which, um, I don't know if you can see very clearly in the photo. It's got a couple of small rainbow flags and this ginormous as your alley flag, which is like, you know, as long as this room and covers the entire building. And, you know, I don't blame the guy who wrote this article for being impressed with Tel Aviv having a gay cultural centre because Tel Aviv is a really cool city. It's got a cool, queer scene, [00:35:30] and it probably seems really innocuous on the surface. But talking about how great Tel Aviv is for queers, while ignoring the wider context of racism and ethnic cleansing is exactly how Pink washing works. And, um Schulman, who's a Jewish American lesbian guy who put it really well. And she said Tel Aviv is a theatre set behind it is the reality of profound oppression and violation of human rights. [00:36:00] And here's the thing that a lot of people miss when we talk about pink washing and when they use pink washing arguments. Transphobia and homophobia aren't limited to Arab and Muslim societies. Israel is an incredibly homophobic and transphobic society. New Zealand has its own problems with antique, which we are all way too aware of. And more than that, I think people tend to see struggles against transphobia and homophobia and sexism as [00:36:30] separate from struggles against racism and colonisation. And they really, really aren't. They can't be fought separately. They're too intertwined and and Palestine in particular. They were all part of the same matrix of violence and oppression. And that's not that comes through in really practical ways. For example, if the Israeli security services find out that a Palestinian is gay or they will use that against them and blackmail them [00:37:00] into becoming an informant for Israel, and if they refuse to, then they will add them to their community, even though it could put their life in danger. So these things are really connected on a visual level, And that's why Palestinian queer groups like al QA are swapped and Palestinian queers for boycott, divestment and sanctions all work to fight both anti queer oppression and racism and colonialism of the [00:37:30] Israeli state at the same time. Um, and here is Haneen Maliki, who's a Palestinian queer activist and the founder of Al QA. Um, talking about few reasons for rejecting the kind of pink washing arguments that the Israeli state makes. Where is Yale often argues that, um, it's acting to protect Palestinian gays, and I've heard people claim that Palestinian gays find refuge in Israel. That's not really true. [00:38:00] So unlike Russia, where local LGBT groups have advised against a boycott, Palestinian queer groups actually endorse the Palestinian call for boycott divestment and sanctions on Israel. Um, in 2005 Palestinian civil society groups launched the B DS campaign, and a part of this campaign has been queer. B DS B DS stands for boycott divestment and sanctions, [00:38:30] which is specifically about challenging pink washing, um, and the group Palestinian Queers for boycott, divestment and sanctions. As one of the groups that has been formed to work on queer B DS. So the strategy of B DS is to use nonviolent tactics to force Israel to address its occupation and oppression of Palestinians in the occupied Palestinian territories, in Israel and in exile. [00:39:00] And there are really basic demands which are the ones that Palestinian groups have agreed. I have minimum basics that I needed for some kind of justice to be achieved and for some kind of peace to be possible. Um, and here in, we've recently launched the A B DS network. Um, after a nationwide conference, [00:39:30] our first campaign is focusing on G four S, which is a private security company that provides prisons and checkpoints for Israel. Um, so in that sense, I think it has a lot of overlap with local and global issues around instigation and prison privatisation. And we're inviting LGBT organisations to sign on to the letter that we are going to send Super fund to ask for to divest their shoes and G four. Yes, So if you want [00:40:00] to learn more, you can come along to our campaign launch, which is in three weeks time at the Hall. This is gonna be workshops and music and food and poetry. You can learn more about their campaign and how you can get involved. And also, I've got a bunch of leaflets along today. So if anyone wants to do your own research, I've got a list of some useful books and also websites when where you can learn more. [00:40:30] Um, and now I think Nadia is going to speak more specifically on. Um well, I'm feminist nationalism. I suppose so. Thank you. Thank you to everybody. Um, my name is Nadia. I've lost my voice a little bit. So, um, I'm gonna try and keep this relatively short as well, because I feel like [00:41:00] a lot of the points have kind of started to already be flushed out. And what I really wanna do is kind of just add to that a little bit. Um and I want to add to that from the perspective of a Palestinian who has spent quite a bit of time in Palestine and Israel and also someone who's spent a lot of time living in the UK and New Zealand. And I'm I'm really glad that I'm going to have this conversation because actually, it's probably one of my least favourite things to talk about. Um [00:41:30] is women in the Middle East because so often what I feel is that as soon as that emerges, people feel this instance sort of like they're waiting for me to say that the the the assumptions and the things that they already have, And when I say things that contradict those assumptions, they seem a little bit like throw. But when I say things that play into those assumptions, they really, really seem to Oh, yeah, yeah, I get that. Oh, yeah, no, it must be terrible. It must be really, really hard for women over there. So I think [00:42:00] that we all already have to acknowledge that we will already have ideas about this stuff. And I think even as a Palestinian, you know, I see them in myself and it's sometimes just about unlearning and recognising why things are framed the way they are, why we have the narrative that we have, and actually just picking that apart a little bit and saying, Why is it that we're so familiar with the image of someone like Malala? You know who's at the moment just hanging out with Obama and it's like [00:42:30] on the one hand, we've got this woman and you see her and I You know, I totally of this young woman who I You you guys all know who I'm talking about, right? Yeah. Um, who, you know, we see taking the world stage. And it's not very often that you see, you know, a 16 year old or a 14 year old 15 year old Pakistani woman talking about, you know, the right to education and that kind of a a forum. But I think that, um, with someone like Malala, it's important to remember that she serves a purpose. And that's why [00:43:00] um, you know, she has her own agency. But she's people like Obama for people like Gordon Brown, who voted for the war in Iraq and are now saying, Oh, you know, like we really need to support women's rights in the Middle East that, um, for them she simply serves a purpose because they're not gonna bring up, you know? And I'm just gonna brief trigger warning here. Um, I'm not gonna go too much into it, but, um yeah, a bit of a a bit of a story of, um uh yeah, [00:43:30] sexual abuse and rape. And, um but there was a young young woman, the same young girl, same age as, uh as Malala Albi who, you know, none of us know the name of like, I can actually put that out there. I didn't know her name until three days ago. And, um, the you know, what happened to her was that during the occupation of Iraq, five US soldiers actually gang raped her. [00:44:00] Um, then proceeded to murder her entire family and her and burn the house down. And I think the thing is, is that so often when we're talking about culture and we're talking about culture in reference to cultures of violence or cultures of violence against women, we're always talking about, um, cultures of the Middle East. And, um, one of my favourite, uh, speakers on this issue is, um, A And what she says is, um, I'm gonna say something here, and that's that's what we don't talk about culture because often [00:44:30] these arguments are so unevenly distributed. And I think it's a really dangerous thing to say, um, to to attribute these things to culture because we don't attribute, um, you know, for example, the cultures Well, she says, What if she was to something as a culture that that promotes violence. She would say it was a culture of militarism and a culture of militarism. And, uh, and, uh, like, you know, the occupation and invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan or Israel [00:45:00] through Palestine. Um, is actually what, um we don't We don't denote that to a Protestant or Catholic or Christian or or Juda, you know, or Judaism. We just call it politics, you know? And it's related to economics, and it's related to all this stuff. Um, So I think if we are talking about this stuff in the West, then we need to actually be asking, OK, um, there's this culture of militarism and our question is, how do we, you [00:45:30] know, stop these awful cultures doing these things for these women? But how do we stop this culture of militarism That's actually stopping these women from moving, stopping these women from, you know, being able to, uh, organise and and do everything that they they need to do, really. And, um, to to round off that bit because I think I could talk, you know, for a long time about a lot of the things that afflict, um, women in the Middle East, and I could go on to talk about the occupation of Palestine, you know, for a long time. [00:46:00] Um, but I actually wanna do something a bit different, which is I want to talk about some of the women that I know that, um, you know, fight these things in their own ways, and and because that's the argument that I want to make is that, um you know, these these things they come about, they can't be imposed. Um, women themselves are organising and and doing their thing in the Middle East very well, and have been doing so for a long time. Um, so I wanna talk about, [00:46:30] um first of all, I want to talk about my grandma, who is fucking awesome. And she, when she was like, 14 grew up and she had, like, seven brothers, and she decided she wanted to smoke a pipe, and so she just, like, picked up a pipe. And she was like, I'm smoking this pipe now because my brother smoked a pipe and everyone, everyone in that culture was like, uh not sure whether you should be smoking the pipe. And she was like, I'm gonna do it, and she does it. She does it to this day. [00:47:00] She still smokes a pipe. Um, I know that's a really small example, but to me, that's just that's just one of many of the women that I know that do these things. I'm thinking about my auntie Who, um, you know, her husband. My uncle has been a political prisoner for pretty much their entire married life, you know, merely for organising, um, you know, merely for being someone who is politically active in the way that we are right now in this room. Um, he, you know, he [00:47:30] spent a long, long time in Israeli prisons, and right up at the front of every march, you have Selwa on the megaphone shouting at people and just absolutely, you know, just really, really demolishing all those arguments. You hear about these women because she just to me, she represents everything that inspires me And she, you know, she would not miss a march. And, um, when my dad went to get married, they need, um, sort of like a different signatories, [00:48:00] and and they need two male signatories, and, uh, she just actually just called the guy out the judge out at the office and just said, I'll sign it, I'll sign it. And that's just you know, I know so many women like that, um that are doing that thing. And I think, you know, when you think about the things that affect these women, the stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum when actually, so many of the loss and so many of the hurt and so many of the things that happen, these women isn't about their family, you know, [00:48:30] in the same way that that we're made to think it is, you know that these familial and like, sort of patriarchal and the community is like, really oppressing these women. It's actually, you know, it's actually the occupation, for example, in Palestine, which shot my stepmom's brother in front of her when she was 12 years old. You know, that's the most scarring experience of her life. You know, she went on to work in a university, own her own flat and and do her thing. But, you know, that was that's what's jarred her. You know those experiences? Um, because [00:49:00] also, when we're talking about women, I think you know, Ian and Ali touched on this a little bit. We'll always do dehumanising Palestinian manners like these. Sort of like backward, disgusting terrorist. You know, um, like, sexist people. Um, And I think about my dad, and I think about the fact that when my mum and dad divorced, my mum says all the time that when people here she has an Arab last name [00:49:30] and that she was married to a Palestinian, they always say, Oh, that must have been hard. She goes, No, it wasn't. He was a great dad and a great husband, but, you know, he just wasn't the person for me, But they already have this idea about They already have this idea about what my dad is like. They've never been met. They have no idea who he is. But they already have that idea that he is this person, this image that they have in their minds. So that, uh, like a lot of the loss that afflicts women in the Middle East is actually seeing their sons [00:50:00] seeing their partners, seeing their fathers and their brothers, Um, you know, imprisoned Because that is an absolute likelihood. You know, my dad doesn't have a single brother in Palestine that hasn't spent time in prison being tortured and and whatnot, Um or, you know, actually being killed like my stepmom's brother, Or, you know, just not being able to participate the way they want to participate and not being able to move the way they want to move. [00:50:30] And the other thing? The last thing I wanna say is that I think it's interesting, like how much these things kind of infiltrate the way we think and actually affect us here. And I, I really like what, um Ian said about, you know, thinking about the enemy. You know, that we have here because I found it really interesting. We had a friend, uh, a journalist come over from Gaza. A young a young blogger called YF, and he was telling me about the group they run in Gaza. You know where they live under siege, [00:51:00] and it's on Hamas role. We're constantly hearing about how oppressed women in Gaza are. And when you came over here, he came up to the Palestine Conference we had in Auckland and I was witnessing to him the whole time about the absolute lack of representation of women and of Arab women and of women of colour and of men of colour that we had at our conference. And, um, he was talking to me about the group that he is a part of, [00:51:30] um, which is a group of youth, Uh, bloggers, writers, activists, And actually, 80% of them are women. Um, and, you know, they're the ones writing the articles. Uh, they're the ones, um, moving and actually organising so much politically in the youth movements in Gaza. And, um, you know, me and Ali were just remarking how interesting we found out that, you know, we thought we'd come so much further. Yet in our own community, um, you know, we [00:52:00] were struggling to get heard where women in Gaza are, you know, having these groups where basically they set the agenda. Um, so I think that's a really interesting point for reflection. And, um, yeah, that's kind of where I want to end it. And I just want to say for question time that I'm really excited to hear you know, the kind of questions that people have. Although, God forbid, if anybody asks me any questions about the headscarf, then you know like it will be over. Um, we can't have [00:52:30] that. Um, but it is a learning space. And I do, like, acknowledge that, and I and I want to say as well that, you know, like, I'm learning a lot of people here, and I really appreciate being able to come into this space. You know, I'm not a part of the queer community, but I really appreciate I think, you know, tying these things together and just seeing the way that they do, actually, you know, these structures of power, actually often just totally abuse and use, Um, our struggles, you know, be it, like, as Palestinian [00:53:00] women or as queer or as tribes, um, you know, to actually legitimate the fucked up things they do. So, um, that's that's kind of what I wanna say. And I wanna kind of welcome any that people want to have around this stuff and and welcome a kind of like a hard discussion on it, so yeah. Thank you, everybody. Um, I actually [00:53:30] prepared a talk that was meant to be presented last night. Um, on the panel called Fighting Homophobia, transphobia and bigotry in our communities. But, um, given the context of things that happened yesterday and dealing with, um, racism and this white centrism in the queer community. Um, I didn't have the energy to speak at that last night. Um, and I've if I'm hearing stuff [00:54:00] that everyone's been talking about in this panel, I've gonna change the talk a little bit, um, to be more relevant about, um, homo nationalism. And actually, my talk already was touching on that. Um, but maybe more explicitly, um, I'll talk about that today. Um, so I'm also speaking as a member of community council, um, [00:54:30] which is a feminist organisation to end family violence and gender based violence. Um, in Asian Middle Eastern African communities in A. And I'm also speaking as a member of the youth unit. Um, but not everything I say will reflect the views of everyone in the organisation. Um, and I also want to just give a disclaimer that the way I present this talk may not be very coherent, [00:55:00] but that's also deliberate. Um, because I don't think my sexuality culture, um, community or gender is very coherent. So I don't think my speech should be expected to be either, and I think that's OK. um So I kind of took down notes while everyone else was speaking. And I thought it would be good to talk about cultural imperialism is another form of imperialism that happens in queer communities [00:55:30] in, um in terms of cultural domination and is not just a process, but a condition that we live in. Um, particularly as people of colour or, um, indigenous people at that kind of cultural imperialism is quite visible. And, you know, we use categories from Western sexology [00:56:00] from sexual, heterosexual, bisexual, and those categories seem to be applied universally. Um, and I guess the term queer and trans is also, uh, another manifestation of that. Um, and I think that's a really important part to acknowledge in terms of colonisation. Um, initially, I was gonna talk a bit about, um, some of my experiences kind [00:56:30] of coming out to my parents. And also, it's something that I find quite hard to talk about in predominantly queer scenes because of the, um, assumptions that it may play into about the homophobia that happens in Chinese communities particularly, um, but I think I will, because it also illustrates [00:57:00] the complexity of, um, being a migrant on colonised land and the kind of colonisation of consciousness that happens through religion. And, um, whether that kind of framework of justifying homophobia would still be there if you conversion to Christianity didn't happen. So I think for queer and Trans people from Asian Middle [00:57:30] Eastern African backgrounds, not all our cultures are actually homophobic or transphobic necessarily. Um, as there is a lot of diversity in those communities that, um, within each culture and also between them. But I've kind of drawn a lot of strength from connecting with other people. Um, from those backgrounds and from people of colour in general. [00:58:00] Um, have you know, we supported each other through stuff because, like, Queens will never really understand what we go through. And for many of us, coming out isn't always an option or a risk we're willing to take, because the potential of cutting ties with our families is a lot harder. So I can only really talk about my experiences about this. And I had thought [00:58:30] about it for a long time before um, telling my parents that I had a girlfriend and that you know, the kind of back and forth thoughts about Oh, shit. Is this gonna end in family violence or disarmament? Um, but at the end of the day, when I did do that, that didn't happen. Although they were convinced that it's a sin and a mental illness. Um, and they kept [00:59:00] being really confused because they thought there was no homosexual gene in our family. So how could this happen? Um, and they're quite popular, homophobic explanations. And they also blame Shadi, um, for it because working there, you want to see the bad side of heterosexual relationships mainly, Um, and I just think it's something that they didn't really understand. And also, our experience as migrants in Auckland was, um, facing social exclusion and racism as the norm [00:59:30] exacerbated that homophobia because moving to aotearoa, um, they were generally quite socially isolated. And while there were a few families from our hometown, but them not being able to speak English, um made it really hard to find a community that was supportive. So when I was eight or nine, my mom converted to Christianity and kind of made everyone else in the family convert to Christianity. Um, because there were Chinese speaking [01:00:00] churches where you know the ideals of heterosexual marriage as the way God intended things actually made it really hard for my parents to not be homophobic and with sermons advocating against the marriage equality bill. Um, and then kind of like asking me if I wanted to sign the petition. I was like, Oh, God, this is before I came out to them. Um, but then I'm just like, I don't support marriage in general. So, um, but when that bill passed, [01:00:30] you know, I kind of use humour as a way of, like, dealing with this. And I told my mum that, like, I could maybe finally fulfil her wish and get married to my girlfriend. And she was She just looked at me and was like, Don't disgust me. And I laughed because it's actually a joke. I mean, I'm never gonna get married. That's actually quite disgusting. Um, but in migrant communities where it's so small and most people know each other, rumours and gossip can be really alienating. [01:01:00] And there is a lot more at stake for our families, and we're still racist and homophobic context because of this and that colonisation of consciousness through religion. Um, because of migration and social hostility and exclusion from the dominant culture makes it harder for my family, not just for me if I'm out. Um, and as many of the other powers have already talked about this a common perception, [01:01:30] um, that Asian cultures are more conservative and homophobic or transphobic sexist and violent. Um, which, you know then implies that white people from Western Europe or Anglophone colonial settler society are more progressive when it comes to gender relations, sexuality and sexual identity. Um, it it's racist and can really exacerbate homophobia and transphobia in [01:02:00] our communities and for white people to be exploiting these tensions and highlighting that homophobia and transphobia or misogyny or whatever in our community exacerbates racism. So, given the kind of interconnection and entanglement of homophobia and racism and transphobia, um, I think we really need to think about queer liberation, um, in a way that [01:02:30] takes into account all those intersectionality. So I think the dominant ideal of queer liberation is, you know, to be is a really, um, a way of thinking about liberation. And I think que liberation can look quite differently and require different strategies, depending on, um, the different communities that we come from or we associate with. And I don't think it's OK to universalize or centre [01:03:00] of queer entry subjectivity, um, for projects of queer aggression, especially on colonised land. Um, because the now, in that sense, to be liberated often means to assimilate. And that just [01:03:30] encourages those Orientalist discourses and assumptions of Western civilizational and moral superiority. And I don't know if how many people here watch the, um, speeches in Parliament about gay marriage. The amount of times people said New Zealander is as you know, we New Zealanders should not tolerate this and kind of using nationalist, um, language to further co liberation, [01:04:00] which then excludes particular minority groups in the country. And I'd actually like to hear from other people, um, who are people of colour identify as indigenous about this topic, especially around cultural imperialism and racism in our communities, [01:04:30] because I think that's, um, really important to have discussions about this, and I don't think I have all the answers. Can I open it up for discussion? Yeah, I reckon. Like you said, it's quite hard to I like, for me quite hard to like talk about the stuff and like spaces that quite like spaces, I think. Yeah. So it's kind of annoying, So I don't really I do have lots to say about, [01:05:00] but origins into our system. I think I really wanna, um, acknowledge that, um that all my friends and you know, elders who are trained or queer people of colour, Um, here and internationally in our homelands or in dice, Um, colonised lands [01:05:30] have been really important in, um, feeling like, you know, I can exist and I should exist, Um, and that these like transnational connections, the visibility and articulation of migrant and refugee experiences of homophobia and transphobia, despite the risks and dangers involved in those fighting misogyny, homophobia and transphobia in the community, Um, especially in, like, white dominated and queer, um, [01:06:00] and feminist spaces. They are the people that really inspire me. And I think, um, I wouldn't really be able to speak of that. That kind of work hadn't already been done before. I don't have so much, um I identify as a New Zealand and I identify as a New Zealander. My father's a king and my mother's Chinese [01:06:30] boy, and and he said, um, that ancient science, as others can be conservative like I really did identify with that. And it was something I guess I believe. And it just I mean, through through from my mother, I guess sort of picking up on 700 singles and family and that sort of thing. But at the [01:07:00] end of the day, But just why I was saying that when I was actually thinking about it, I was like, Well, actually, at the end of the day, me coming out to my parents, my father was as accept as my mother and perhaps ultimately pets ultimately more, or at least more rigid than it views. Despite her saying at one point, you [01:07:30] know, Chinese culture was very conservative, So yeah, she bought it back, and I brought him to up to a point that perhaps experience, Yeah, I think it's really easy to internalise those ideas. Yeah, so in my head, obviously, we were very good. [01:08:00] I'm gonna sort of point out that thinking about, for example, when he said, um, Asian cultures are seen as even putting The idea of being conservative on South Asian cultures is a form of cultural colonialism. And, um, I just wanted to I think the fact that, like so, like think about culture and think about these relationships. [01:08:30] Yeah, I think even like the category of Asian is like a really broad and problematic one that was invented by Europe and and and one part of the is we we we know about the hetero of our own culture that we know that there isn't a single. There's many parts of it. It's a very contradictory thing. [01:09:00] Um, there is a tendency sometimes to see the other as very homogenous, and we will say, and in that completely different from what we experienced. But there are possibly just as many contradictions and differences and complexities and inequality. Yeah, that's true. I think the, um, issue is that when there are, [01:09:30] um, those tensions in, um, other cultures, it becomes a sort of, like often the kind of like feminist and, like Asian cultures are ignored or, like, not seen as existing. And the the kind of dominant cultures are misogynistic [01:10:00] and like, Yeah, I think those tensions get exploited for racist agendas. I, I think you made, uh But this is a thank you for sharing your story and your perspective because I always take, uh, quite a lot to put out there. So So thank you for that. I guess my comment is I mean, I was [01:10:30] campaign and I made the old submission. But it's one of the things I think that perhaps one of the things I said was one of the things that struck me most about the American government and opposition that that came to to court. I personally thought it was really regrettable. And I thought that the most visible opposition to the the survivors who were protesting and sort of, uh, people were Korean, uh, cheer [01:11:00] papers to me, the most viable people who were as well, so And, uh, um, I thought it was it was really unfortunate, but that was that was the case. Um, I and I do think that, um there are some truths to do that to something. The Chinese, for example. Consider, um, And so I found one of those good things I've had to do is just [01:11:30] too hard to my party of my American party campaign. Even though this is one of the things I find that that was quite difficult and he didn't react very well to it, but, um Yeah, I, I support the I mean the whole race. It's very regrettable. That's that's my point. And I think one thing with that was, um you know, one of the comments that was made around that time was that people who are opposed to this shit go back home and like, did that [01:12:00] include Colin Craig? Yeah, but also you saw from the Labour Party and anyone who knows who knows. I'm not the biggest fan labour party and stuff, but you saw that within that dynamic of the like conservative P I union members are opposed to Robinson because he's gay and it's like, you know, if you actually look at all the research and stuff that's coming out of it and that's what was interesting is that in terms of the research [01:12:30] that's coming out, is that you know, specific PR communities are no more homophobic than communities. But again, and it's like sweet. If you go down to a meeting of 3000 people, you're gonna find 10 conservative people in there that you can get sound like from and present to the P I community and stuff. And so I think that multifaceted and quite deep and com, uh, and complex in that sense in that sense. And I think it's a real a real challenging, really important thing to actually, um, quite those [01:13:00] stereotypes that are quite easy to fall back on. Yeah, I think when white people talk, they're not seen as representing their community. But and and besides, like, you could have you said that 30 years ago, when white culture was just as conservative as any other culture on this question. And I think it is the the the cultures cultures move [01:13:30] very, very quickly. Um, well, the thing is, too. I think that it would never be called. It would never be named as white culture being against marriage equality. It would be people against marriage, marriage, equality. That's how it would be framed to most people, right? It would be, Yeah, people with religious or political views, Not like nothing with, like, a culture with white views. Yeah, and I can make that what you said about, like your family, like a Christian church [01:14:00] and then becoming, you know, like becoming homophobic. That's kind of like the story of lots of places like, you know, like most non white cultures wouldn't be homophobic if they weren't tell us. It's kind of like any bits of and transphobia and stuff is kind of and even just like the the idea that there's like two sexes and two genders and blah, blah blah. You know, that's like white people shit. That's bullshit. And it's kind of like, so anything [01:14:30] that is coming from, you know, from our people as a result of colonisation, you know, as a direct result of colonisation. It's not really our country. It's, you know, it's shit. They're still blamed on us. Do you think that it's almost colonial like, I mean, obviously like there's lots of cultures that didn't that would have to be normative or gender normative, But is Europe the only place in the world that [01:15:00] had that had been exploited to the rest of the world? Not really. Well, I guess I just don't know this content. My culture wasn't like that, you know? Mhm. Certainly, I'd say, even if, um you know, even if that's not precisely the case, the gender and sexuality system that is currently dominant is the one that Europe supported globally, I'd say, but yeah. Oh, I guess I just wanted to [01:15:30] bring up the fact that we mentioned before that it was a really white space, which it totally is. And I was just wondering, I don't know who would be the right person to even answer this question. But, um, would it be appropriate for the last half hour of this to be a discussion among people of colour? And should us White leave and give some space? But I don't know who was the best person to answer that, or even if anyone would want to put themselves out there to answer it. So I just thought it was worth thinking about. There's also a free role, so [01:16:00] I mean, we could like, Yeah, we could have a discussion if we wanted, but it depends on what people think. I think maybe what's important is that people are like, Oh, mhm, yeah, I think that homophobia stuff is something that can be exported [01:16:30] and colonised. But also the strategies of queer liberation can also be exported from, you know, from the US or whatever to other places, and that also needs to be questioned. As you know, like, this panel is better done. I think um, I just don't know, like, I really appreciate that you shared that experience of coming out as well. And, like you said, You know, you often feel that feeling of not wanting to play [01:17:00] into people's assumptions, and that's kind of something I was talking about. And I think that when someone does that in a room, you need to be like, it's like there's a lot of trust involved in that And instead of saying I'm gonna tell you something that might play into your assumptions right now but a lot of knowledge that you're gonna see the complexities in that because I think it's really good if we can have that conversation and say, Look, it is like this and it was like this for me and this might play into this in this assumption. But I want to flesh out a broader argument. [01:17:30] So like, I really appreciate that you you did say that because, you know, I know in my conversations with some of my friends, you know, we sort of say that we don't talk about some of the more successful elements of things that happen within our family within certain groups of people because we know that that immediately will be all well here. So, um, I think just to acknowledge that you did share that, I think is something we should do [01:18:00] in this room, which is kind of, you know, because it does take a lot of trust to sort of say, I'm giving you this information and you do not miss using it, like, do not, um, misconstrue what I'm saying because I've been in situations with, um, you know, Zionists and ex Israeli soldiers, actually, who've been quite liberal and who I've had, like, long conversations with and, you know, quite uncomfortable. These are people who have, you know, been occupying like, literally, like, quite literally, probably [01:18:30] could have thrown tear gas canisters at my family. Or, you know, and so we're talking and we're talking. And then, you know, somehow I fell into the trap of talking about some of my experiences of sexism in the Middle East would be ridiculous. And he just goes, Yeah, see, you know, ultimately, this is a This is the bottom line, isn't it? This is the bottom line for us, [01:19:00] you know. That's why you're you you know you'll never want that. And that's why, ultimately, like, we need to protect Israel and you see why I do the work that I do. And that was it for him, you know, like that was a sealed deal. So I just want to acknowledge that does take a lot of trust to say those things.

IRN: 773
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_conference_session_12.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004277
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089571
TITLE: Session 12 - Beyond conference
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Jan Logie; Jim Whitman; Kelly Ellis
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Amnesty International; Angela Davis; Anne Tolley; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bill of Rights Act (1990); Captive Genders; Cara Gledhill; Critical Resistance (USA); Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM); Equal Justice Project (Auckland); Green Party; Howard League for Penal Reform; Human Rights Act (1993); Human Rights Commission; Jan Logie; Kelly Ellis; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Ministry of Justice; New Zealand Labour Party; Orange Is the New Black (tv); Regulations Review Committee; Ruatoki raids; Salvation Army; Serco; Stonewall riots (1969); The New Jim Crow; The Queer Avengers (Wellington); To Be Who I Am (2008); TransAdvocates Health; Wellington; Work and Income (WINZ); activism; capitalism; community; depression; discrimination; drugs; employment; equality; facebook. com; gender; health; homosexual law reform; hormone replacement therapy (HRT); human rights; law; marriage; marriage equality; oppression; police; politics; poverty; prison; racism; rape; safe sex; social media; support; surgery; three-strikes law; transgender; transition; violence
DATE: 13 October 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington High School, 251-281 Taranaki Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the session: Gender and Prisons.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Oh, my name's Kelly. And, um, I've been sort of, um, work working for trans prisoners. Um, probably for 20 years. But, um, it would only be sort of the last, um, six or seven years since I sort of began my transition that I've really got my teeth stuck into it. And, um, it's it's been, uh, it's been sad and, uh and fascinating at the same time. It's great to see a bit of bit of progress. I'll [00:00:30] start start away, and I sort of wondered how I'd go about this, but I thought that probably the easiest thing might to give be to sort of give a little bit of a history of the work that I've been doing. Uh, because, um, it's not as if we can haul on a great deal of precedent in New Zealand about trans prisoners and the treatment of trans people. And as I think, uh, the current um, what do you call this two I see in America. Who's Obama's right hand man? Joe Biden. Joe Biden came [00:01:00] out, uh uh, shortly before the the the last election in America and said that, uh uh, transgender rights was the human rights issue of the time. And certainly if one looks at how quickly transgender law has developed overseas and even in New Zealand, Um, it's clear that sort of the the glacial progress of most legislation, uh, is certainly something not reflected in transgender legislation. Which isn't to say [00:01:30] that we haven't got a long way to go. But it is a far more dynamic area of the law than many others and speaking as a criminal lawyer who, of course, um, I don't know if you people know much about the, um the rise of the Bill of Rights Act and, uh, which probably had its high water mark in terms of, um, the Court of Appeals. Interpretations of it, um, in the early nineties where, you know, you could say, Look, the police officer didn't instantly give me a phone when he asked me my name on the side of the road after being pulled [00:02:00] over, uh, and the court of appeal would say, Oh, come here, you poor person. Give us a hug and bad policeman. Your drink drive ticket is tossed out. But of course, over the last, um, uh, two decades we've seen a very steady erosion of, um, of search and seizure rights. Um, and that came with, um, AAA nasty case called shaheed, which meant that the old rule of you cannot enjoy the fruit of the poison tree. So if something has been illegally obtained, [00:02:30] you know, a bad search warrant, it wouldn't matter how good the evidence was. Um uh, it was out. And of course, all that has changed. And the only reason III I mentioned that is because, uh, for a criminal lawyer, it's very depressing. And, uh, going down to the court of appeal. Uh, used to be fun in the nineties, but these days, you know, if you if, uh if you can't afford a spanking somewhere else, the court of appeal will do it for free and sort of various lawyers call it the the [00:03:00] House of Pain. Uh, some of the more cynical Call it the house of lies. Um, whereas, uh, yeah. So anyway, transgender law, on the other hand, floats my boat because, uh, as a lawyer, it's an area of law which can develop and has indeed developed. And, uh, just the the first case where I really got stuck in was uh, and I'll just put a little preface here. Remember, I'm gonna be talking about a lot of very naughty people. Well, not a lot. But some very naughty people who probably, um, uh, legitimately [00:03:30] have been put in jail. Uh, but there are so many people who do the, uh, do the crime, Do the time stop you complaining? Jail is a place where you don't go to be punished. Jail is the punishment in itself. So let's just sort of, you know, remember that. But I had a client called who, um, had, um attempted to rob a taxi driver, and the taxi driver got pretty badly injured in the course of it. And, uh, [00:04:00] she wanted to be sentenced in in Wellington, even though it was an Auckland case. Uh, legal aid doesn't pay for that kind of travel, but I thought, Hey, her family's down here. And this is the kind of gig I want to do with the trans advocates trust, which I'm involved in. So I came down to Wellington, did this case, and there's a case called Queen and Marco, which is a court of appeal case, which covers, uh, aggravated right and I put in very full written submissions, and the judge, as they often do, did not go out on a limb [00:04:30] and say Yes, I recognise that this person is transgender and is going to suffer terribly in a men's prison, and therefore I'm going to give an extra big discount. Uh, the judge whose name I forget didn't say that, but she ended up sentencing this person who should have been getting six or seven years under the Marco Tariff case, and she ended up getting 4. 5 years and got a whole load of credit for sort of legitimate things, such as her guilty plea, which even though it was late, she got an [00:05:00] enormous credit for and so effectively it was recognised. And I cited the case there, which wasn't one of mine case called Queen and Warwick, which is an Auckland High Court decision. And buried in it is one paragraph which says, and because of the difficulties she will face in prison as a transgender woman and other psychological issues, I'm prepared to offer a 10 to 15% [00:05:30] discount, and so her sentence was discounted to reflect that, uh, but the submissions that were provided are no criticism of counsel who obviously has, You know, that's the only high court decision who obviously did a good job, but he barely scratched the surface on it, but obviously made an impact with the presiding judge. And so that case was something which, uh, obviously being high court, uh, was something which could be taken to the district court. And because this was, [00:06:00] um, II I saw the more the more I looked at it, the more heartbreaking it was. Um, I thought, Well, I'm going to really get stuck into the next case that comes along. And the next case that came along was, uh, case, which featured in the in the international press. And on one hand, I sort of feel, um I got some criticism about it that I was publicity seeking, but the reality is, uh, it was the press, [00:06:30] the press that pursue me all the time. Uh, and, um, I won't say that I didn't milk this to the greatest advantage that I possibly could, But when I say greatest advantage, it was of no advantage to me because I live in a very small little city and um, I. I like to keep my head down and just wander around the place and not be ID. Sorry. What is the circumstances of a, uh, transgender person? Absolutely. You know, present presented [00:07:00] very well. Quite androgynous. But undoubtedly femininely, uh, with a a, um, AAA very squeaky voice and flapped their hands a lot. A lot of very sort of feminine, uh, cues, but completely unrecognised by her family. Her family, as far as they were concerned, was, um, you know, he's a boy. He needs to toughen up, and, uh, and that we got that from everywhere and just denying this, You know, what was absolutely undeniable and perhaps not surprisingly, [00:07:30] to hit the turps and, um, and drugs and had a sort of a quite a, um, a tumultuous life and eventually got angry with the boyfriend and cracked him over the head with one of those good heavy, um, um, wine bottles, the ones, you know, pressure. I would say champagne bottle, because champagne's a trademark. But we know those, uh, those bottles designed for containing veno under pressure. Um, so, unfortunately, he wasn't too badly injured, but, uh, difficulties with, um with bail [00:08:00] and staying off the source and eventually ended up in jail. And that was about a week after I'd been turned down by two doctors who I'd approached in, um, asking them to, uh, help get onto hormones. Because once to prison the current, uh, regulations and policy, uh, state that, uh, one is allowed to continue. And that's the key word. Continue, [00:08:30] um, hormone treatment while in prison, and it adds in at their own cost. But the reality is most hormones, as I'm sure most of us know here are available through the state at a little cost. You know, prescription costs only. But that means that, um was unable to access, um, any kind of assistance. And so I advanced that as being a novel point and a noble point. So not only was provided an affidavit saying I lock myself in my cell 23 hours a day for [00:09:00] safety reasons, and that was prompted after I was attacked by three people. Um provided that affidavit to the court. And also I want to transition. But I cannot do this and went to the, um the District Court in obviously cited Queen and Warwick, saying, Look, this person is deserving of at least a 10 to 15% discount. And the judge said, No, no, no, no. Because that's other psychological issues as well. Only going to give you 10% for, for [00:09:30] for being, for being transgender and and in jail and the the risks of assaults. And I said, Well, you know, I want more and he goes, Well, why? And I said, because of this denial of medical treatment now, uh, it was quite a good judging using a cunning old lawyer's trick. Um, I worked out that the best way to go about things was to understate things, and by doing that, he had his nostrils flaring and came up with a lovely little quote, which was that Corrections [00:10:00] policy is appalling. And of course, that was You know, I could say that it was appalling, but, you know, they were just interested in what I say kind of thing. But having a judge say, that meant that, you know, the press picked up on it and and the thing got real legs. And of course, the idea was to give it as much legs as possible. Get it as much into the public eye as possible, and I can't remember if it was before or after, but certainly around. And at that same time, uh, Jan was, um, was asking difficult questions of Anne to in Parliament, and Mary [00:10:30] Ann Street woke up for 35 seconds and asked a few questions as well. Before, um, disappearing into obscurity. Haven't had an email back from her for over a year. Um, but Anne Toy was asking questions in parliament, and it became very clear that she didn't even know what a transgender prisoner was because her initial reaction was that there were three transgender prisoners in there. And I thought, Oh, my God, I must act for all of them because I But of course, her definition. And this is [00:11:00] the definition of corrections, uh, regulations. Well, effectively, they've got a very strict physical conformity test. So basically, if you if it doesn't matter if you have had your gender changed through the courts, have it recorded on your birth certificate. Uh, the first thing that they would do would be to do a genital inspection. And, uh, so, for example, somebody like me who's changed my gender through the course would be a genital inspection. And, um, if if I had had surgery, I'd be put in [00:11:30] a women's prison. If I hadn't had surgery, I'd be shuffled off to a men's prison on a completely arbitrary basis. Um, so, um, that was her reaction. And she obviously considered transgender prisoners those people who had had surgery and were now in the prison of their choice or not rather not of their choice, but that their genitals are accorded with, um next thing that came along was another one called, um, a case [00:12:00] called, um And, uh, she ended up featuring featuring on, um, on, uh, native affairs on Maori television. And, um, she Unfortunately, while I was doing the case, I wasn't her lawyer. At that point, she had somebody else, but she had just pleaded guilty to something burglary and as part of the, um process, which in those [00:12:30] days was actually not quite strictly speaking lawful, but is now there's a new thing called the Criminal Procedure Act, which enables the courts to impose bail terms which are conducive to the ends of justice. Used to be that it was just to stop you from offending and to ensure that you turned up so administering the conducive to the administration of justice in this case, Uh, well, they they they still did that meant go into custody, sign a new bail bond which requires you to go up and check in with probation for your probation report [00:13:00] this afternoon because the judges were sick of people turning out and going. I haven't got a probation report. Well, didn't I fucking tell you to go up to the bloody probation office? The Yeah, you know, I rang you outside, and, you know, we had a smoke, Your honour. So the judges started imposing this bail condition, and it ended up that put into a cell. Uh, not long afterwards, another guy was put into the cell very briefly, and he sexually violated her. And this was happening, Um, perhaps three metres underneath my feet while I was arguing. [00:13:30] And I have to say, um, it takes sort of quite a lot to squeeze a tear out of my, um, dry old wicked lawyer's eyes. But, um, I did have a bit of a sniffle in the car on the way home because I was I was just gutted. That here. I was arguing this kind of shit upstairs and And the judge next door, Um, negligently, I suppose you'd say negligently allowed this to happen, But not long after that, I got a call from [00:14:00] actually, she didn't get a call. Um, she she grabbed me in the, um in the court one day and said, Can you please be my lawyer? So I said, Yeah, OK, no trouble. And, um uh, again, the, um the the Rolls Royce job bearing in mind for a sentencing like that, I got her on legal aid. The sentencing fee would probably be about $300. I probably put you know, um, I don't know, 15, 20 hours worth of work. And I already had a pretty good precedent, [00:14:30] obviously with, um, uh, case and, um, but helped keep the ball rolling because, of course, they ended up on, um uh, Native affairs. And that meant that it remained in the public eye. And meanwhile, Jan was still stirring the pot pretty down at parliament, although Mary Anne Street was nowhere to be seen. Um and so that was you know, that was good. And then sort of, you know, I obviously went on [00:15:00] about, um, you know the radio and got quoted in the papers and that kind of thing, but ever conscious that regardless of how much merit I have and what I say, um, I'm a lawyer whose word should be taken with a grain of salt and that, um uh, Jan uh, despite the merit of what she was saying could easily be dismissed as just another looney Green opposition MP, which I think effectively what the Minister Ann Tolly was doing. So I thought to myself, how How am I going to How [00:15:30] am I going to keep this thing going? And my first thoughts were nobody who enacted the corrections act, uh, which is there to promote, uh, safety in the community and the rehabilitation of offenders nobody would have contemplated in their wildest dreams that would be used to deprive people of legitimate medical treatment or put them in such extreme danger. And I remember sort of isn't there some kind of thing called the Regulations Review Committee or something? [00:16:00] And so I did a little bit of reading around and then thought to myself, There's such a paucity of local law here the databases that I had access to up in are fairly limited. Um, and I've done a bit of work with the Equal Justice project, uh, in Auckland, which are Auckland law students who do pro bono work. Rather do research work for lawyers doing pro bono work. I gave them my submissions and said, Look, you know, I put at the bottom, added them all this stuff breach of the Human [00:16:30] Rights Act, breach of the Bill of Rights Act, breach of the United Nations Universal Declaration. Yoy Carter principles, et cetera. But none of this was researched was just the ad attacked on the end of 10 pages of submissions. So I gave them that and said, Can you please? You know, um uh, come away with some, uh, come back with some precedent to show that I'm right on this, Um, because I want to use your stuff as a basically as my as the submissions for going to the Regulations review [00:17:00] Committee. And I'll have you know, one or two of you along as as my juniors or supporters for this one. And so they're all very keen. The reports came out and, um, I think, uh first thing I think I forwarded one to you. I think I might have forward one to Marion Street as well. I can't remember. I might have got the pip with her by that stage. Um, you sent it on to the minister's office and there suddenly was something which was no longer the angry screeching of a deranged trans lawyer [00:17:30] in the provinces. Or, um or or some, uh uh, political opposition member trying to make political mileage out of it. Here was something which was so soundly searched and clearly neutral with in terms of political agenda. And the result was that an toy's office went very, very quiet for months. And I sort of made an approach and got told that it was an extremely difficult issue, which is always said, um to which [00:18:00] I said, sort of quite lengthy response, saying It's not a difficult issue. Um, and this is this is a bit of sun, so I don't know if any of you know So So the sixth century BC Chinese general who wrote a magnificent book about warfare, which, if you actually went through it and took out all the glories and victories, enemies and victors and vanquished and put in neutral terms like agreement and that kind of thing. It would just about be a good self help book. But one of the things is that, [00:18:30] uh, in many battles, one must leave the enemy an escape route. And, uh, the escape route, which she eventually realised, was that there is section 28 of births, deaths, marriage, relationships, registration act. So it's such a mouthful, which provides a all steps considered desirable by medical professionals test to change one's gender through the courts. And so I said, Here is a statutory test which has already been debated by [00:19:00] Parliament, which is already accepted and being used. Just use that, Uh, absolutely no response. But, you know, a couple of weeks ago, out came the indication that anybody who has got this, uh, got a change of gender through the courts, uh, and changed it on their birth certificate, which realistically, most trans prisoners haven't done. Uh, because of the cost involved, um, that will be respected. [00:19:30] And you will go into the prison, which accords with your birth certificate and for those who haven't been able to afford it or haven't done it, then they can make application and my understanding or my rather my expectation is that they're simply going to be using a test like that. They'll probably have a GP and or a psychologist to to sit down and make an assessment over whether the person has changed their gender and is stable in that presentation as a result of the desired [00:20:00] the medical steps considered desirable by medical professionals. So that's the wording of Section 28 subsection three subparagraph C. Um so, uh, so So that where we're at And there are still, you know, there are still some significant issues. Uh, one of them, uh, and and one of them is that there is still the denial of treatment for trans prisoners who want to initiate treatment [00:20:30] while in prison. And, you know, I, I, um the personally I totally object to the Pat Patho and the branding and dearing of trans people and in terms of gender identity disorder, um, piss off. Don't say that to me. Gender dysphoria. What are you unhappy about this? Because I'm actually quite happy. [00:21:00] Euphoric. Even so, the point is that while it might be utterly offensive to many of us. The reality is that being Trans is recognised as being a medical condition, as in the diagnostic and statistical manual. Volume four, it's going to be the new dot Volume five out yet Version five seems to have been coming out coming like Christmas. Um, and there are recognised medical, [00:21:30] uh, pathways. And so I have said that the same as if somebody went to prison, which is a stressful place. And the more stressed people are under, the more likely their mental health issues are likely to arise. They go to prison and they get deeply depressed. It'd be the same as saying, Well, look, you know, don't hang yourself. You shouldn't be depressed if you're going to be depressed. I here you should have fucking thought about that before you came into prison and initiate treatment thing. What? You exactly What? You're bipolar. [00:22:00] You should have thought about that before you came to prison as well. So I mean, it's, um you know, just so that has not changed. And there's been no indication yet, but one suspects that, um, this position is not sustainable on any level, be it legal or moral. And, um uh uh, Anne Tolley. Bless her heart. Bless her. [00:22:30] I am being recorded. No, no. Good honour for doing this. I mean, she has rapidly come up to speed. Um, and she's actually done something about it, and nobody, nobody. Nobody in the government has done anything about it ever before. And regardless of, you know, my my political persuasions, which perhaps might be a little bit more left and green, uh, than hers. Um, she's the minister we've had to work with. She's the minister that we've had to lobby [00:23:00] and persuade. And, um, and we've dumped. And it's not the end of the road. Uh, but, um, you know, with with with a sort of a concerted effort from the greens from the Equal Justice Project, I want to put my hand up here. You might want to remember this. DEWING has just done a magnificent thesis on, um, on on trans prisoners. And so I've worked quite closely with Sara. She came out and stayed at the farm and ate pork, and, [00:23:30] uh, and met up and stroked the cats and met up with who she actually knew. And so she's been a great supporter and shared ideas the equal Justice project. Um, you know, they just did a great job, Um, and very grateful for the support of Jan. Grateful for some support from Mary Anne Street. You know, let's not but, um I suppose at the end of it, you know, I mean, hugely, Um, you know, we can't forget the people [00:24:00] who are actually, um uh, uh living the life in prison. Uh, they are the ones I suppose that we owe the greatest debt of gratitude to in terms of, um, you know, they are the ones that are there and that have generated, uh, generated this. And, um, I'm very pleased to see that we're starting to get a result. And I think that, um we've got a little bit of momentum, and, uh, you need to keep kicking the ball along. Had it gone on too long. No, this over to you [00:24:30] at this point. Um, I think we'll save questions to the end, if that's all right. Um, and that way we can kind of have a discussion. Um, yeah, I guess when, um well, people first kind of asked me to be on because I've been one of the organisers of this conference. But when I first got asked to be on a panel with these two people, I was like, Why? Because I kind of feel like, um yeah, I mean, obviously, both have had a lot [00:25:00] to do with what's just happened. And it's not very often that you can say that the National Party have actually done something that stopped me from going on a massive rant, and they have so kudos to them for that Kudos to and to think I mean, I don't think they've quite persuaded me yet, but yeah, um, just Yeah, you guys are awesome. So, yeah, just [00:25:30] a bit Feel a bit out of my depth. But that's fine. Um, so I think what I'm gonna say is gonna be quite different from these two. Just because my kind of area of expertise has come from doing criminology at, um and I am going to be talking about the prison abolition movement, which I'm quite passionate about. Um, I'm gonna see that in a New Zealand context as much as possible. And I think we'll be specifically also talking about the need to centre prison abolition [00:26:00] and queer and trans Liberation struggles more broadly. Uh, I also wanted to say, as an organiser, given what's happened in the last couple of days, it's also worth acknowledging that on a panel about prisons and an institution in New Zealand, which overwhelmingly targets Maori, there are none on the panel. And that's something I think we need to address. Um, I'm drawing heavily off this book, which is called Captive Genders. It's an edited collection from the United States, with writings from ex [00:26:30] prisoners, current prisoners and academics from a wide yeah, have a look range of backgrounds. Um, I begin here from the position that prisons are dehumanising places where we choose to house people we want to forget. So I want to start by kind of setting out just quickly what prisons look like in New Zealand. 50% of prisoners are Maori. Um, it's higher for, um, people in women's prisons, and this rose significantly during the 20th century. So in the [00:27:00] 19 thirties it was about 11%. Um, it's a result of a general pattern, which is systemic bias against ethnic minorities by the police, by the courts through the criminal justice system. Um, although this is something I don't really have time to get into um but it should be noted that it's similar to the pattern of all countries with a history of white colonisation in New Zealand. We like to imprison people a lot. Uh, a set of political campaigns have centred around zero tolerance in getting tough [00:27:30] on crime. And organisations like the Sensible Sentencing Trust have a really loud voice in the media. This is directly affect policies, including three strikes which we've borrowed from California. Although in a slightly reduced form. Um, this law was actually three strikes in California was eventually rolled back Not because it was an inhumane law that saw people receiving sentences of life imprisonment for stealing, but because the Californian state prison system didn't have enough money to deal with it. Uh, which I think is [00:28:00] kind of telling of the attitude in general, uh, we have the second highest rate of imprisonment in the OECD, with only the United States leading us in this state. And really, they need an entire graft in themselves. They don't even fit on the same one as everyone else. Um, prisons appear to be how we respond to problems in society, and this is a thing I'm kind of hoping to tackle. So the people we imprison in society are, by and large, the most marginalised. Already there is a whole set of depressing statisticss that doesn't bear repeating [00:28:30] here. Needless to say, we put people in prison who need help the most. And this goes to the heart of the problem with prisons. There are also a huge amount of people who do horrible things which never go near the criminal justice system and never will. The brutality of the raids on October the 15th, 2007 and the degradation of the environment by multinational corporations among a whole lot of other stuff, as some examples, um, we also spend a huge amount of money on imprisoning people in New Zealand [00:29:00] on any given day as well. I think it's important to note 70% of people in prison will be out within three months. Roughly speaking, we lock people away, and we feel that this somehow makes us safer. And this is another thing I'm gonna need to challenge here. Um, there's very little help as well available for people on the outside. Once they're released from prison. It's incredibly difficult to find a job. Adequate housing support networks access to a number of other resources on release. Much of the help that is available, [00:29:30] um, comes from organisations like the Salvation Army who are putting it lightly are not particularly supportive of queer and trans issues. Uh, the next thing, I briefly want to cover our substantive issues within prisons as they are. Um, at the moment, I'm going to be drawing heavily from a Human Rights Commission report that was written by my old supervisor, Lizzie Stanley. So just yeah, I can give you a reference after, if you'd like it. Um, the first issue I want to mention is the complete lack of suitable health care [00:30:00] within prisons. There's an incredibly high rate of unnatural death, including suicide. There's a statutory obligation on corrections for people within prisons to receive the same level of health care that they'd expect on the outside. But obviously that's not happening in that particular concerning for people who are trying to start hormones well in prison. Kelly's just talked about, um, there have been numerous reports of people on whether prisons going without adequate health care, including pain relief, dental care and even just medication. Um, I do [00:30:30] work for the Howard League, sometimes in Wellington, and they kind of we get letters from people in prison who have very serious medical problems and who have been given Panadol for pain relief. Um, so it happens a lot. Um, there have also been concerns raised about the standard of food in prisons. Um, despite high numbers of people, there are also very limited rehabilitation programmes. Although these have increased, um, people going to prison [00:31:00] on drugs charges for typically short sentences barely have the chance to access these. You can only really access them if you're in prison for a year, preferably much more than that. Uh, another particular concern for me is the use of at risk units. Um, lockdown. Segregation at risk units are intended for people who are at risk to themselves or others, and they're generally considered to be kind of protective environments that these people are subject to constant 24 hour surveillance [00:31:30] with light and noise at all times of the day and night limited of any access to fresh air. The outside world, um, no access to visitors, television books radios anything like that. There seems to be a focus here on, like managing people, managing risk rather than caring, which I think is really concerning. Um, there's also just from anecdotes that I've heard from people in prison, like 23 hour lockdowns going on a lot, Um, which [00:32:00] is, in my opinion, contrary to all the human rights stuff we signed up for. And I don't think that's just my opinion, I think, immediately that goes through as well. Um, the recent smoking ban, I think, is a further issue, and that's in the process of being challenged at the moment. Um, on entry to prison Now, uh, people are not allowed to smoke. Any smoking paraphernalia, as they call it, is considered to be contraband. For me, it kind of raises significant issues about governing other people's health in the prison environment. [00:32:30] And, um, I also think corrections did a very good job kind of doing this. This has gone amazingly. Look how well we've done blah, blah, blah. I mean, I went to a presentation in an academic conference last year, and the corrections person there said, Oh, you know, we were really worried about this we mobilised the army, and I sort of thought the fact that you've mobilised the army is this, um, something really bad about, You know, even the army couldn't stop [00:33:00] Arthur Taylor. Yeah, it's true. Um, and the final thing I want to briefly cover, which is particularly relevant to the topic of gender, is the utterly gendered nature of the prison system. So, um, this is something particularly interested me when I went to a lecture for a paper I tutor by a member of staff at A, which is the women's prison in Tower. The comment that struck me was, we want to make these prisoners into good women, not good people, good women. Um, the kind [00:33:30] of work and training for prisoners that's provided is also very gendered. So to give examples from Wellington and A they do a lot of sewing. And in Ramaa, they do brick laying, among other things. So while the recent national government announcement to which we have a lot to owe to these to people sitting on either side of me is vitally important for the safety of trans people in prisons, I think the way that gender is structured into the prison system is also problematic in and of itself. Prisons don't [00:34:00] provide for people who don't identify with binary gender or do but don't identify with the way that it's manifest in the prison environment. So this brings me to kind of the final part, which is on the prison abolition movement. When I first say this, people tend to look at me like I haven't really thought things through, like I'm planning to just open the doors and all the murderers and rapists who come running out, um, and things. However, what I want to emphasise here is that prison has become a place where we do see [00:34:30] people. We don't know what else to do with, um, it's my belief that the prison system works exactly as it is meant to, and according to its own logic. And in New Zealand, we've also started to see that growth in kind of prisons for profit, where the state no longer assumes responsibility for people's safety and has handed it over to private enterprise. So Mount Eden Prison, for example, is now run by Serco, who seemed to own pretty much everything in the world, including a nuclear weapons Arsenal. [00:35:00] Yeah, a number of companies profit off more and more people being sent to prison. And this growth of the corrections industry is also key to the expansion of prisons as a whole. So prison abolition as a movement is focused on transformation, not reform. This doesn't mean we give up all efforts to make prisons better for people, because I think it's important that we do. But rather we need to do our best to help make prison environments better while also discouraging [00:35:30] their expansion. So Angela Davis, who's kind of just my favourite person in the world all the time we actually invited her to this conference. But, uh, I think she's kind of busy then I would have felt really weird on this. Um, she's drawn parallels between, um slavery in the United States and what she calls the prison industrial complex now, and similar parallels can be drawn in New Zealand between the ongoing colonisation [00:36:00] and commodification of Maori people and practises and the detention of disproportionately large numbers of them in prison. Um, we see efforts in making prison programmes more culturally appropriate that end up tokens. These practises we're not as bad in disrespect as Australia, who their way of being culturally appropriate is naming their prisons indigenous names. Um, just being like Look, guys, they're really culturally appropriate. Since you're all here, we're just gonna, um [00:36:30] uh three authors in Australia Baldry, Carlton and Coin have recently written about the need for the centrality of movements for indigenous self determination as part of the wider move to abolish prisons. And I think it's important to keep in mind, uh, prison abolition movement also recognises the way in which criminal behaviour, which is a term I think is open to many criticisms anyway, is influenced by a society which doesn't care about people. So this is why people who end up in prison come from [00:37:00] backgrounds of being poor, having no housing, low levels of education, et cetera. Prison is a place which makes it easy for us to ignore these problems by literally locking them away. I also think it's important to acknowledge the ways in which different groups are affected by the prison. It is noted in a brilliant chapter of this book, which I'm just gonna advertise. Um, there is no way that transgender people can ever be safe in prisons as long as prisons exist. Um, and I believe that to be the case, [00:37:30] no matter how many reforms we managed to get that made that environment easier. Um, the writers in this book emphasise the importance of making prison abolition the centre of radical queer movements as well. Uh, prisons are oppressive institutions, and the kind of radical politics I stand for is in total opposition to them as a whole. They reinforce dynamics of power, racism, classism, ab, et cetera. Um, this is as true as somewhere like the United States is in New Zealand. I think we often get [00:38:00] into the pattern of comparing ourselves to Australia. You know, we're really nice to Maori people. We didn't We never hunted them for sport. It's like we have a lot of problems here. We really need to address them. Um, the amount spent on prisons also takes away from measures such as housing, health care and education. Also, you know, just community movements in general is continually being cut and cut and cut and cut and cut. Um, and [00:38:30] the prison only seems to increase. So there are alternatives, as I guess what I want to emphasise There are different ways we can do things, and there are different ways to deal with these problems. Community based solutions go a lot of the way towards this. But if we continue as we are to cut these, just keep cutting, cutting, cutting, cutting. It's difficult to consider what they would look like when people are already so stretched for time and resources. So critical resistance, which is the [00:39:00] group in the United States. They made kind of a lot of toolkits and things which are really useful to think about. But there hasn't really been any build up of a kind of movement that I've seen in New Zealand along those lines. So yeah, could be toads. But I did, um, right. But as I said before, despite what Kara said, Um, like I, I'm really grateful for lawyers and academics and people [00:39:30] who are able or willing to share their experience because politicians aren't experts, and I'm definitely not, um, I can share some of the work that I've done in this, and Kelly's kind of talked about most of that already. Um, and I've done a bit of looking into this, but it's kind of, um it's that I think as an MP, you kind of got a once over lightly on a whole lot of things. So I'm [00:40:00] not going to be able to add a whole lot more depth because, actually, really, that's about the people who have got the experiences and the people who have had the opportunity to really reflect on the issues that you're going to get the depth from. But I will throw. I do have some things to be able to throw into this. Um, and I would also like to I think it is useful to look at, um, the success that we've had so far in getting the policy changed. And, um, that's been a result of, I think, a confluence [00:40:30] of things. So Kelly's work and that, um, visible or audible advocacy it being picked up by, um, Native Affairs as well. The Equal Justice Project Research. The Human Rights Commission work, though, um, in some ways started, they started to be who I am pro um, research report around, um, transgender rights in New Zealand, and this was identified [00:41:00] as an issue in that report and the government was challenged on it. Nothing happened. They've raised that again and nothing happened. Then there was the ombudsman's report in 2011 on the status of prisoners health in general. And they identified, um, transgender prisoners that particularly at risk in that report and that provided another, um, I guess opportunity to have that voice [00:41:30] or that experience go into the media for other people to be able to listen to it. So I think it's kind of useful to think about in terms of getting change, about the opportunity to bring lawyers to bring academics, to bring students to bring politicians, particularly for the most vulnerable people where we know the public have, um, maybe issues and being able to listen to their experiences. [00:42:00] And I know you know, when I asked the question in the House of Anne Tolley in response to the ombudsman's report, there was a national party MP. When I was saying, you know, raising the issue of people being raped in prison, he was saying, Well, they shouldn't have committed the crime in the first place should they? And and we know that that is a reflection of of a public view, that there is the sensible sentencing trust There's quite a deep seated cultural [00:42:30] theme in this country of punishment, and that's not just about prison being, you know, the loss of liberty being the the punishment it is about putting people in stocks and bounds of. I think that is part of our culture that we are grappling with, and we see it in terms of family violence as well. I think there's a connection between those things, and I always have to get family violence into every conversation to get that in there. Um, so [00:43:00] But it's good to think of because there is still a lot more work to be done. Um, both Kelly and Kara talked about health services and, um, being able to continue hormones. Um, even if they haven't been prescribed by a health treatment, um, specialist, and also that reassignment surgery, any surgery is not able to be considered while somebody's in prison. So that is again, contrary to what the actual legislation indicates. Um, [00:43:30] so I also just wanted to, um, that I was interested in that just in this whole kind of space and doing some research and, um so that we know and it's been touched on around the social conditions that lead to people being more likely to end up in prison. And we don't have much research. And this is another issue, actually, is, um, for the [00:44:00] that in the Human Rights Commission inquiries, um, that they did. The correction said that at any one time there might be 10 to 20 inmates who identify as Trans, um, and that there's an estimate, kind of through anecdote that maybe the numbers about double that. But the point is, and then the ombudsman report and kind of I'll quote it that their investigation They said that quote The department doesn't keep records regarding the numbers of [00:44:30] trans prisoners in New Zealand prisons unquote, so we don't know. And when those records aren't kept, there's not able to be the research. And, you know, the ombudsman managed to get a section around trans prisoners. We've no idea about other queer prisoners or queer prisoners because we you know, there has been no resource and no focus. So in terms of issues for gay queer [00:45:00] men, women, lesbians and our prisons in New Zealand, we don't know. I've never actually heard people talking about it very much. No research and I was looking at, um I found a quite disturbing report from Australia about lesbians in prison written by a, um, prison manager and talking about the problems in this increasing number of lesbians having relation [00:45:30] or having lesbianism relationships in prisons and the problem that that created for the running of the prison. Um, have you seen orange? Is the new black? No, I. I heard everyone talk about it. Right, OK, Yeah. And and it's always been fetishized in the media and made great kind of movies. Really? It's just like, yeah, we bad girls Exactly [00:46:00] right? Yeah, but you know, the and she the this prison manager was raising issues in terms of, um, health issues and spread of hepatitis because, um, access to safe sex wasn't wasn't available within the prisons. Um, in terms of, uh, jealousy between prisoners in terms of predatory behaviour in terms of so it it really [00:46:30] was just seen as a problem. And yeah, and we have no idea other research that I saw in the US where they were talking about issues of visiting rights, um, which in the change of our human rights legislation, I'd imagine isn't a problem. Unless you've got several partners where I'd imagine that may be a problem. Um, access to reading materials if [00:47:00] they're deemed. I don't know. Here. Yeah, that is a problem. So to be able to actually, um, you know, read gay lesbian queer literature that there's in the states. At least there's a ban on those materials because they're deemed, I think it changes from prison to prison here from what I've heard, but yeah, kind of depends on the mood of whoever's deciding which is not ideal. No, um, in terms of prison [00:47:30] guards and their homophobia and transphobia that, um, we don't know here, but we know internationally that there is a problem, um, around homophobic rape that we know, um, that there's a lot of, um, data around the targeting of, um, non gender conforming, non macho male prisoners. Um, but also, the Amnesty International [00:48:00] has found that, um, perceived or actual sexual orientation is found to be one of four categories that made women prisoners more likely to be a target of sexual abuse within prisons. I never I've never heard anyone talking about that. I You know, I'm clearly not an expert, and I and I don't live in this world. Um, but I think all of this when I read this and I do think Wow, you know, there is so much work to be done around the prisons [00:48:30] and I agree with Kara around. We know people are more likely, and in New Zealand, we don't know in terms of sexual orientation or gender identity. But we at the research we have is around being Maori, and that tells us very clearly that, um, Maori are more likely to be arrested and are more likely to be convicted than non Maori who commit the same crimes [00:49:00] sort of Pacific. I got the sense that, um that the Pacific Statistics if they're available, and she suggested that there's not that much difference between Maori and Pacific so that I mean that something on the radio about sentencing drink driving that would have been good. Yeah, I was thinking about [00:49:30] I mean, it's one of the few times I've heard the question of interweaving um, our heritage with with sentencing, for instance, which breaks some interesting ground. It's a pity it's like drink driving, but it's bad. And, um, I suppose one can always use these sorts of things as a flag or a signal for what one might expect anyway, instead of just saying, Well, what's it like in the rest [00:50:00] of the society or in prison? It's going to be two or three times worse. So usually common sense, as opposed to hard research. I guess a lot of hard research would actually turn off the detail and be convincing, I guess as well. Um, sorry. Throw something in before I forget I met one non P I or Maori Trans Prisoner ever. And that's in 22 years of, [00:50:30] uh, of doing hard out criminal law. And I think that, you know, we really need to be talking about the intersection between race and gender and sexual orientation. That's those things. Can I just also Sorry I don't want to dominate things. I want to just pick up on what you're talking about about imprisonment. We've got this current regime with the Court of Appeal, which has been running for many decades now, and it goes along the lines of when you turn up to court [00:51:00] for your having sold cannabis to a, um uh to an undercover agent and you talk about the fact that you're, um you know, you've got your wife's dying, and, um and and your kids, uh, you know, need special needs and all that kind of kind of thing, and perhaps that a community based sentence might be appropriate. The Court of Appeal. And this is why we don't like going to the court of appeal. Is it all? No personal circumstances always take a back seat when it comes to any sentencing for [00:51:30] drug dealing. And they matter very, very little because denunciation and deterrence of the paramount considerations and only imprisonment can achieve this. I just want to throw a little number in. 30 years ago, we used to pay 20 bucks for a tinny and 30 years ago I could fill my Holden for $20. And 30 years ago, wages were about, I don't know, probably no better than me, approximately 1/5 [00:52:00] of what they are now. So So we've had we've had, uh, I say roughly a fivefold increase in in in number terms of wages. The price of petrol has gone up, um, by by 10 fold, if not more. And yet a cannabis tinny is still 20 bucks. That is not the same tinny that it used to be because the, uh, tiny that you buy now is available year round. Because, um, the Court of [00:52:30] Appeals, uh, policies in terms of imprisonment has driven driven cannabis underground or into, uh, indoor growing areas. So whereas it used to be a seasonal seasonal crop with seasonal shortages and gluts, now it's year round Because of the better growing conditions, The cannabis is now superior quality to the bush wheat that, um, that, uh, is grown outdoors. And so, in actual fact, what if you look at you and I'm not an economist, but when supply, uh uh, drops, [00:53:00] Then prices go up. And when demand increases, prices go up for something to have plunged in real terms, uh, and and value over the years, it would tend to indicate that, rather than being encouraged, discouraged and deterred, cannabis growers are thoroughly encouraged to do this. And that is reflected by what can only be, you know, even sort of, you know, an economic dummy like me. Uh, realises [00:53:30] it can only be because there is more cannabis around than ever before. So the current policies of jailing people that we have in actual fact have created an even bigger market. And I had a a weeping drug dealer. They usually cry, um, up in. They seem to be a bit more softhearted up there. I'm very harsh on it and say Look, you're supposed to go to jail. This is the economic model, man, you know? You know, if if you didn't go to jail, if you know they suddenly said OK, all the wife bashers have to go to jail instead [00:54:00] of getting some hand wringing anger management course, which they don't need. If we stuck them all in jail and got all the drug dealers out, you'd all be drinking, digging up your big buckets of cannabis, coming round the lawyer's tea room and saying, You know, do you want to buy a tin and we'll be saying, Fuck off. You don't even go to jail for this shit anymore. It's growing wild all around the court. That would be that would be what would decriminalise it would totally pull the value out of it. But the sad thing is that it would mean that the discretionary income from Auckland, which flows [00:54:30] north to largely subsistence level. Very poor people growing cannabis. Mostly that money would probably end up growing the cramp on the Canterbury plains and the province going offshore. So on a social level, I'm not really sure where I stand on it. That's just that one of the other things I was going to mention was around, um, which I thought was quite interesting at one of the pieces. Um, I read in looking at US history [00:55:00] and, um and I don't know, for New Zealand, but they were saying in terms of there was one time when, um, prison activism or anti prison activism and queer politics, queer gender identity politics were the same, like the the Stonewall riots started and the imprisonment of a drag queen. And that it was it was the same movement and as kind of mainstream [00:55:30] gay lesbian cultures have become, you know, have gained kind of respectability and rights that that we've shifted away from Yeah, and remembering that history and the fact that at one time we knew that the people in those prisons were there for, you know, because of the morals of the state that had a vested interests at heart rather [00:56:00] than actually any real purpose. And I'm not quite as, um, hardcore is the stonewall rights. But is there a parallel there with the 86 law reform? It's not as hardcore as the stonewall rights, obviously, because that was just wow. But, um, the 86 law reform we sudden like, you know, it was illegal prior to that. So there is maybe a small parallel there. I think it is the same on one level, you know, and and it's And I think, [00:56:30] you know, while lesbians weren't being locked up at that time, there was still that kind of understanding of being I think that connection and seeing the injustice of it and the constant threat of violence because, in my opinion, a lot of arrests And you know how we treat people in the criminal justice system as violence. Yeah, I feel that the criminal justice system in here is very similar to the [00:57:00] UK. I mean, it it it is the sort of neoliberal privatisation of prisons. Um, he's still doing it. Still privatising it from in the British colonial British had colonial direction. Um, if I was going to say anything, I mean the the the history of law reform in the UK does feel [00:57:30] like the history of, um, history of law reform here in terms of the component of who's doing it had a pretty bad record on running prisons in the UK Something in here about a year ago. An American judge got sprung. I can't remember what got sprung because he's getting a kickback from the private prison. [00:58:00] He's getting over. It got over a million dollars. And so, you know, he was sending people to jail. He was sending people to jail so that the, um so that the prison running company could profit and he could get his retirement fund. And I mean, that's profiting the whole concept of profiting from prisoners. It's just sort of, um, so fundamentally wrong and flawed and, uh, you know, immoral. Um, that I. I just think it you know, it it it's just unconscionable. [00:58:30] It's just bound to end up with abuses when there's a problem. Solution seems to run through much more strongly in America and prison history done in, yeah, English or British? Um, New Zealand prison histories, I think I would have said I mean, I think it's what we could look forward to. I mean, wherever, um, unregulated capitalist enterprise is touched. [00:59:00] Um, the island has touched, you know, regulated, um, state based operations that then it it has corrupted them. But I think seems to be more holding the state based run enterprises in place in Britain and in New Zealand. But Britain is also pointing the way to through the current government so far, great opportunities [00:59:30] for corruption. I think. I think one of the things is I look at it and I look at Serco. Now, of course, you end up with, uh, prisoners are, um they keep a database on every every every time you get into a squabble every time you, um, call call a prison guard and name or that kind of it all gets put into a database. And I couldn't help but think when Serco came and oh, my God, there's going to be a huge financial incentive for Serco to be saying to their guards Tolerate nothing. You know, somebody [01:00:00] spits, somebody does something because all this comes out parole hearings. And so if you wanted to keep make maximise your profit in the prison, you'd want to keep your residents in for as long as possible. Uh, having them check out early on parole is the kind of thing which any hotel manager would be saying. That's very bad. If you can keep the door locked and keep the credit cards taken over, uh, it should be done. So I think that the, um just [01:00:30] the there is a financial incentive for even the prison guards to, uh, ride prisoners hard. Write up everything because in the end, it increases the prison population. It increases the need for prison guards and increases the profit for Serco. And of course, the money goes offshore. And that's the fundamental problem. They stop being people and they become stocks, you know? And we have a bad enough history in New Zealand with animals [01:01:00] even, you know, school approach to service provision. Um, sorry. I do really want to hear the rest of what you have to say, but I just the point. What we have been discussing here is that in the US they actually have. The private prisons have contracts with the states that say that they will have minimum occupancy, and if the levels of the prison occupancy drop below a certain point, the state has to pay the prison companies just just [01:01:30] to keep their prison selling. Um, so and that's that's a that I understand. So my brother here have been trying to get the policy, even though we have the second highest in the O CD, even though the numbers of prisoners have doubled since 1992 in New Zealand, Um, I also with relation to that I I find the increase of the emphasis on law and order and being tough on law [01:02:00] and order and politics really difficult to deal with, because I feel like even, I mean, even prior to M MP when the Green Party rose up as the I guess what's becoming increasingly like the actual left wing party now? Because I feel like labour is leading itself down by not standing up against this like pressure [01:02:30] to be the tough party, because it seems to me it's, you know, there's this vicious cycle in kind of politics, where also, politicians know that security is a fundamental need and that it's a way to beat up an easy vote, you know, So then they actually create this increased unrealistic sense of fear in the population that then feeds that need to kind of get tough because, you know, the main [01:03:00] source of violent crime in this country is family violence. I know, but I do, because there are the two things where our system isn't addressing it. I don't think prison is the answer for either of those things, actually, And the international evidence around, um, very, you know, lifetime offending sexual offenders of you know who be deemed to be, um, severe offenders [01:03:30] is for them to be in the community, surrounded by people who are attached to them so that they remain connected and, um, are reinforced to be acting positively not. And where we actually have danger is when people are isolated and and our whole system is built on this isolation and it and it's counted to all of the evidence of the things that [01:04:00] that, um, the international that suit should do is connect people via Facebook with family, which is interesting. I wasn't sure what what necessarily would happen in that respect, but, um, but it's possible, um, it's possible to reconnect through Facebook very rapidly with family, many of whom are on Facebook. Um, and [01:04:30] it was sort of slightly startling to see somebody plug in on on one day and come back, you know, a day or two later with a bunch of requests from people like you before going inside, um, to to to reconnect, um, which is not external virtues of Facebook, just like finish. It does reflect the the such a bad reflector of what? [01:05:00] What society is like. People are doing social relations through things like Facebook, so it would be such a I could just go. It would be a good idea to sort of campaign for Internet access, for instance, as a way of increasing improving things in prison, for instance, because communications are finished. Now, just going to say with the with the of course, the poster girl for for [01:05:30] trans case law, she had, um, AAA botched, um, gender reassignment surgery, where she was effectively left without genitals and, uh, was placed, uh, as part of her sentence for murder in a men's prison. And, um, she was left in a V position, got brutally raped, uh, was released from prison. Uh, sorry was released [01:06:00] from hospital and then very promptly paroled because that got her off the book and it ceased to be the prison's problem. And, uh, she went out into the community with zero support. Um, stole the car at knife point, uh, so that she could go off and drive it into something big and solid and end her life, but got pulled over by the cops and ended up, and that's her case. She was an aggravated robbery and a kidnapping. I think she detained the poor chap who she took the car off. But, [01:06:30] um, again, and that's that's, you know, throwing people out into the community. In fact, it was a law student, too. A terrible, terrible, um, fright that he got law student, got his car taken. But throwing these people throwing any people out into the community without decent support. It's just, you know, hey, you might as if if you might as well get real as a prison, a prison warden and say No, no, no, no. We just won't let them go because almost inevitably, uh, they're going to end end up coming back. And if there are no, there's no support. [01:07:00] And for trans prisoners, well, for trans people who struggle for support at the best of times. You know, once you've got a murder conviction under your belt, well, then probably find that you know what few friends you had might be difficult to find. I was just gonna this kind of going off a little bit, but just talk a little bit about maybe some of the intersections between, um our other bits of, um, policy and legislation and what happens in prison and the point around. Interesting. [01:07:30] I've and I've got copies of the UK. Ministry of Justice. So if we're looking at are not the issue of the whole around prisons, but just around how? Um, things could be better in the prisons at the moment for trans prisoners. And the UK. Example was actually pretty good. And part of the reason that I think it's good is if I can find it. Yes, it's because they've got an equality act, [01:08:00] and I've recognised the anti discrimination in itself. Doesn't, um, enable doesn't protect people's human rights. It just protects against discrimination. Um, and so that this is one of the sections, um, in their policy that they're saying when a prisoner proposes to undergo is undergoing or has undergone a process or part of a process for the purpose of reassigning their sex [01:08:30] by changing physiological or other attribute of sex. The prisoner is considered to have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment for the purposes of the Equality Act and must not be discriminated against or harassed because of this. So the whole policy is based on kind of the sup premise of that that's recognised. And our Human Rights Act doesn't recognise gender identity yet. Um, [01:09:00] that's you know, we've still got money and you know, we do need to do that work and it will have an impact, um, in terms of people's alienation and how far people are perceived to be out on the margins, which we know influences arresting and sentencing as well as the experience within prisons. The other thing, um, we've seen in the new um policy that's come out from the government is So it's, um, if [01:09:30] they've amended their birth certificate, um, as well. But even if they haven't, they can apply to the chief executive, but that we do need that and reference the cost of going to court to get the birth certificate amended. Um, as well as there's been a change in the courts, their interpretation of what the legislation means to be able to get that change previously, basically, the courts were requiring for reassignment [01:10:00] surgery before they would. That was the act changed, right? Because the act used to the birth deaths and Marriages Relationship Registration Act Section 28 used to have the test was has taken all steps necessary. And then it was amended to all steps desirable. But just as an interesting side for those who are interested in a sort of if you start looking at where do where do trans people feature in New Zealand case law, there's a rather unfortunate judgement by a dead uncle of [01:10:30] mine called the Attorney General High Court Auckland to, uh 1994 or something like that. And the question that came before the court then was, uh, what is required. Uh um can can a transsexual marry in their new gender? And, uh, unfortunately, a physical conformity test was put on. So that meant that, [01:11:00] you know, basically the, uh, the fact that the, uh, somebody has changed their gender and has not had surgery, um, and has got a birth certificate which now reflects that, uh, reflects the change of gender that is not, um, uh, going to be, um uh, that doesn't apply everywhere. And in terms of transsexual men, they are required to have had a mastectomy. And in terms of transsexual women, [01:11:30] they are required to have had genital surgery. And this is the ugly bit. And if the registrar general of births, deaths and marriages is in doubt, he should order a medical examination. Now the the the the the most amazing part of this is until the until the until the what I call the Marriage Equality Act. Um, until that there was there were a large number, Well, a significant portion of trans people who are forbidden from any kind of marriage at [01:12:00] all. So, for example, I was married, changed my gender through the courts. Before I could get that gender change turned into a birth certificate, I had to lose my wife. And so I sort of contemplated becoming a widow. Um, divorced. I thought there was a cute little argument about annulment, but thought no bug went off and had a grudgingly had a civil union. But the point is at that point, I would not be have been allowed to marry a woman because obviously that was illegal. [01:12:30] But if I had wanted to marry a man, God forbid these guys, Then, uh, then the registrar General, Um, if if he was in any doubt, would have ordered the medical test. And, of course, if I'd had surgery, Yes, I could have gone off and married a man if I hadn't had surgery. Couldn't have married a man. So in other words, no surgery, but have changed gender until the act the Marriage Equality Act, came in. Uh, people in that situation were [01:13:00] not allowed to marry anybody at all, which is just sort of I know it's not exactly trans prisoners, but it's sort of trans people being prisoners to legislation and I. I just looked at that and I thought to myself, You know, I just just gobsmacked gobsmacked. I thought, What have I done wrong? How did I just written by? There was a beautiful point, though, that I was still married to my partner. I [01:13:30] had a a declaration from the court that I was female. And so there I was, uh, in a in a strange transit transit lounge of gay marriage, which was sort of quite good to sort of have. But I wanted that birth certificate changed, which, you know, I had a question for you. Kelly. Um, when the original parole changes that you talked about that wound up negatively [01:14:00] affecting trans people in a way that hadn't quite been anticipated changes, was it? Bail changes the ones that wound up putting people in prison for longer when that law change was originally enacted. Do you have any idea whether a section seven report was done to see whether that change was compliant with the Bill of Rights Act? I'm not sure, but I do know that the bail [01:14:30] act was used in a variety of ways. Or rather, it was used in a variety of ways and the, um uh, which which probably shouldn't have been used. So, for example, it used to be that, uh, for any court order, um, for any to receive a court order, they can. You can you can wait for up to two hours for it, and it just was a sort of cart blanche that judges would remand people in custody in a bail cell while they waited for this. And, um, you know, [01:15:00] sort of the arbitrary detention of people who might have no prospect ever of going to jail because they're on a charge which is never going to see them going there. But they end up in these bail cells waiting for some bureaucrat to to fill out the paperwork. And sometimes, um, sometimes, you know the court. It is very variable practise. So I mean, I can remember one day a gangster saying to me, Oh, can you get my curfew changed? And I said, Yeah, but you're probably going to go into custody while your bail bond is done. They could [01:15:30] search me and said, Yeah, they usually don't, But they can. Thanks for that. Disappeared came back, and, uh, and it was the last case of the day. And the judge said, Oh, well, look, you know, the the the prison prison escort staff have gone. You think you could take your client down to the front counter? His bail bonds changed and I said, Yeah, sure. So it came out through the double doors, and as I went out to this enormous ugly gangster, looked down at me and said I thought you said I was going to have to go into fucking custody. And I said, Well, that's normally the case, and you go fuck. I shoved them out to dack up [01:16:00] my arse, and I laughed and he gave me that, that, you know, that the Jake the muzz turned on me In a way, it was terrifying. He said, Don't laugh. It was Don't laugh. It was stalky. So, um, yeah, uh, you know, you you see a lot of funny things. You see a lot of funny things, but yeah, but that was that was the practise. And, you know, that was, you know, there was no way that she was seen as a flight [01:16:30] risk. However, she was seen as being a, um you know, she had a history of, um of drug abuse and probably couldn't be trusted to go off and to seek probation. But she ended up in a cell and and, you know, ended up getting sexually violated as a result, which, um, you know, it's it's it's bizarre, because I mean what I guess I'm interested in as as a human rights law academic, the Section seven reports [01:17:00] are often supposed to be, You know, the big thing that you that come out to show Oh well, this law is compliant with human rights. It'll be fine. There's no act the Bill of Rights and that that for anyone who's not aware of that, it's a requirement from the Bill of Rights Act that the attorney general reports on any inconsistencies with the new act before it gets passed into legislation. But the Section seven reports obviously don't pick up on every nuance of [01:17:30] inconsistency. And I think that's such a major example, and especially because people in the Ministry of Justice are the ones who in practise research for the Section seven reports, If there's no one there who has trans issues at the forefront of their mind, when you're doing that research, it's very easy for the Section seven report to completely disregard how trans rights will be infringed. And I think that's such a such [01:18:00] a big example of that. Maybe we need a rainbow desk. I was I do think that having a person or a team of people in the Ministry of Justice who have gender and sexual minorities as the main area of focus would be really beneficial. But obviously the ministry, like every other ministry, is doing [01:18:30] the whole, uh, human rights thing or being anything better than a rubber stamp. But, I mean, even where it's in the UK, where it's actually further up the hierarchy in terms of the way the judicial system works, it's still, um, it's still frequent to buy the thing and then you have to do the work. Basically, I think it [01:19:00] sounds like putting you any aspect of human rights on the agenda or otherwise compliance with the very I mean Britain. It's been incorporated. The whole human rights European human rights thing has been incorporated into the practise of Parliament. So you don't even have to go out out of Britain now. Um, but still it's treated as a rubber stamp and no question, seriously get. I mean, it's not [01:19:30] uncommon for it just to be an online sentence. We don't see it. The UK You see a lot of cases now where the United Kingdom have not respected prisoners' rights. Then it has gone to the European Court of Human Rights and they have strongly criticised the United Kingdom as a state for not respecting prisoners rights. And a lot of people criticise that because prisoners rights aren't exactly [01:20:00] sexy, you know? Yeah, exactly. We don't want to grant murder as human rights, because what does that say? You know, what does that say about us as a society? No. It certainly is not the kind of thing which is going to sort of make anybody popular, I think. Campaigning for for for unpopular people. Um, yeah. It's, uh I totally see what you I agree with you there and, you know, and obviously, as you can imagine, had a wee bit of crap. Um, mostly [01:20:30] from the transgender community. Um, hilariously, while I was doing case. And, of course, I advanced there that being transgender is a recognised medical condition. Unattractive thing. The judge said, No, it's not. And I said, Oh, yes, it is. And and and show it to you know, your Honour might think that a gender being transgender is just, you know, we're just part of the the the the the great diversity of humankind. And he nodding, And you [01:21:00] might think that I might think that, but we're wrong. And, um, there was a point to this. There was a talk about how you got criticism from the Yes. So next thing I know, I've got a complaint to the law society from a Auckland Auckland Trans woman who said that No, it was only real transsexuals who who could consider their condition [01:21:30] call one, and that I had misled the court and quote duped a gullible judge. Now, fortunately, the Law Society didn't take a great deal of notice of it. But, you know, it's the kind of thing which you know, here I am sort of, you know, getting getting, getting a bit of shit while I'm sort of poking my hand into hot water fishing, trying to fish somebody out. And I've got, you know, people in the Trans community trying to ankle tap me. But you [01:22:00] know, I, I don't want to sound, you know, well as me. But so the allegation that one has misled a court, of course, would be absolutely if it would probably be fatal to any lawyer's career. And one thing is for sure is, um, you know, as a lawyer well, as as as anybody who's involved in public advocacy, um, once your credibility is taken a hit. That's probably the kind of thing which, you know will never heal. So, um, you know, that was sort of, uh, you know, the immense amount of crap [01:22:30] that that that came from it. Um oh, I'd say immense, but I I was even even I was surprised. And it takes, you know, after sort of I don't really sound like, uh, criminal law is, um it's all that tough because there are tougher jobs at it. But it's, uh you get sort of you have You have to have a pretty thick height, as I'm sure Jan would appreciate. But the thicker hide in politics kind of thing, too. Um, you know, there's always somebody there trying to wank or tap you just for the sport of whether they agree [01:23:00] with you or not. It's, um make sure they did say that it was only right. It's The thing is there's the hierarchy. I mean, this happens within the wider GSM community, the gender and sexual minority community. And it happens within the small nations as well, Everybody wanting to legitimise themselves and doing that. I mean, it's a general kind of human attribute where you treat on other people to push yourself up higher and unfortunately, because, like, it seems like there's been [01:23:30] so much effort within, um, trans communities to legitimise being Trans and to bring it into the mainstream that as soon as anybody does anything which could reflect negative, it's this idea that everyone who is trans is therefore an ambassador for the trans community, or even if they don't want to be. So they if you do something negative, if you try to defend somebody who's done something negative, you're seen as bringing everybody else down. You know, that is a very interesting thing about from a guy in [01:24:00] the Guardian who is a Muslim. And he said that I refuse to, um, I refuse to be interviewed as a Muslim because what they want is the good, Actually, but just in terms of I mentioned it yesterday, um, in the Trans and the media, um, and Trans people do come under the microscope, and as I said to my son, as we're driving up, I was talking about a pot case with him and he said to me, Hook me up, hook me up [01:24:30] with your grow up there up There are so much cheaper than they are down, out west. And I said to him, No, mate. You know, if you got busted, you'd be front page of the paper. He goes, and you remember the case of a drink driving woman down here, whose parents who were lawyers got mentioned in the paper. And so I said to me, he goes, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I said you'd be front page of here he goes, Yes, yes, it would be, uh, lawyers, Son Busted. I said, Nah, mate. It'd be transsexual lawyers, son busted. And, uh, maybe I'll [01:25:00] think of something else. Did you have other stuff you wanted to cover? There were two other things that I just want to touch on briefly, but it's kind of different. And that's the intersection stuff as well. And, um, access to surgery. And New Zealand is a really big problem. And that's my understanding is that one person a year will get paid by the government roughly speaking. Well, we did that. No, no, we did. Well, it's actually and it's really unclear. We asked questions about that, and we're given [01:25:30] that as a policy that it could be up to, I think, over three years, 23, every two years, supposedly. But then in Auckland, DH B has been doing surgeries. And so yeah, and that hasn't been under that national policy. But the DH B just it's been an express recently. Have just come back and said, um, there's an increased demand for, um, breast reconstructive surgeries. Um, so we're not [01:26:00] gonna be able to do more. So it was That was only breast surgery that was being done by the a DH P, uh, and which they've now they've now stopped. But just sorry, I don't mean in terms of prisoners. Um hey, and in terms of access to surgery in New Zealand, just forget it. I mean, there's a waiting list which sort of arguably is 30 years long, and I think they've only done Amy now about it. They've only done 11 surgeries here in the last decade or so, and a lot of people are having to try [01:26:30] and save money or to go off shore. We know someone who's $50,000 in debt because they want to go to Thailand and get proper surgery done really by one of the top surgeons. And if you look at drivers for crime, I think you've got one right there. I mean, in terms of being able to actually follow your own identity. So especially if it's complicated when it, you know, it used to be that surgery. It was the demarcation line of legit. You want a legitimate person [01:27:00] and also, I guess, like people expect that all Trans people want to get, like, demanding that you have to be one or the other and that you can't confuse people, but because confuse people when it's confusing, we're OK as long as we still have the binaries in place. Yeah, yeah. Um, and [01:27:30] the other thing I wanted to mention briefly was the work and income policies and that, um, the connection to prison and, um, well, poverty as a driver for crime, particularly for marginalised people who experience discrimination in the workplace. And we know now as well that the 90 day rule in terms of people being able to stay in employment, the anecdotal evidence is that's affecting, um, queer and gender. Queer communities more [01:28:00] than others, which is what makes sense is similarly for Maori Pacific Um, but so there's that. So we more, probably more marginalised groups are going to be more likely to need income support. And while people are transitioning, um, now there's We have asked for clarification on the policy because it's not clear whether people will be allowed to be exempt from work testing during the transition period, because [01:28:30] that's pretty important, actually to be if you're going through that transition and if you are transitioning and are being forced to go into the job market and present yourself when your identification details don't match your presentation, that's really dangerous. Um, and we haven't had clarification back on that. And when people leave prison, there's, uh there's a $350 [01:29:00] that people can get, But it's discretionary. So and you know, the, um, discretion. Like what? They what criteria they join? Well, I've been told it's based on if they're deserving. It kind of. From what I know, which isn't like, this is all anecdotal. It's kind of, um yeah, based on the kind of deserving, undeserving like, Well, you've tried to do this and you've tried to do that, and you've made these important connections. But [01:29:30] if you haven't done that, then you don't deserve it. So you just sat in yourself fighting your time until you can get out again. Too bad and fear. Yeah. Yeah, like you don't qualify for any of the programmes because you're only in there for three months. And that's $350 to last for 2. 5 weeks for if you have if you have the identity documents in the first place to be able to get the benefit But it will take 2. 5 weeks if you are able [01:30:00] to establish that straight or apply as soon as you're out of prison. Good luck. And a lot of people don't have identity documents, so that's a real issue. And that's just to get a poverty income, you know? So talking about drivers a crime and setting people up to be revictimized and to, you know, commit crimes like that policy is a complete no brainer that needs to change, [01:30:30] and there needs to be better support. Thank you, everybody. I wanted to compliment you on your shirt, Jack. It's awesome. I think you could make one. I wanted to talk about something that has kind of been touched in 100 different ways. Is the concept of of the inter relationship between drugs and race and and imprisonment and kind of the way that in the US. So there's this book in the US called the new Jim Crow, [01:31:00] which is scripted about the idea that the war on drugs has led directly to this mass incarceration of primarily banks in the US, um, to use their own terms, Um, and how we see very similar analogies here, um, and that the core of that is that you can use drugs as a way to harass and arrest anybody. Um, and was this like, the search? The stop and search were laws in New York and all around [01:31:30] the US. But like, last night, we were talking about, um, the way that the stereotypes of trans women and trans guys as well involve, um, drug use tools to a large extent. Which means that the police, um, in New Zealand feel perfectly entitled to say, Oh, that's a trans person. I was searching for drugs. Um, and you know, we've got statistics here in New Zealand, and, um, this is actually a magazine I produce. If you look at the statistics we've got here, um, feel [01:32:00] free. Um, but basically, once you've been once you've been arrested, you're also sort of going through to to prosecution and actually being charged with something and pretty much flat. Like once you're in the system, you're in the system, Um and you know, it doesn't matter why you were stopped and searched, given that the number of people in New Zealand that have tried drugs that in possession of drugs are, you know, ridiculous because it's ridiculous that they're criminalised the way that they are. Um, [01:32:30] it's so easy to go from. This is a stereotype of a person that I associate with drugs as a police officer, Um, and therefore I'm going to search for them. This is a group of people that I don't stereotype each other, so I'm not going to bother to search. So you get these inequalities and these inconsistencies and representation within our prison system that do not match the reality because of these stereotypes and because of these biases within our S A. That leads to ridiculous levels of incarceration which lead to ridiculous levels of abuse of that [01:33:00] and within that system, Um, yeah, I was just gonna say I had this really interesting experience a few weeks ago when I was taking a second year criminology tutorial. Uh, and we were talking the topic. Was the police kind of talking about the police targeting minorities? And it was one of those awesome times where the actual experiences within the tutorial, um, taught them more than I [01:33:30] ever could, because there was There's one, Pacifica woman and a guy, uh, a black Caribbean guy. And they both just came up with one of them. She was like, If a police officer comes up to me and says, You know, um, what are you doing? Do I have to answer him? And I was like, I don't think so. But if you don't, it's probably gonna lead to further suspicion. Um, and she said, Oh, because it happened to me the other day and I was just walking back to my apartment on [01:34:00] the terrace and that happened. And then this guy puts up and goes, Oh, the other day I was I was, you know, walking up Taranaki Street and these cops came up to me and started asking me all these questions and all the white people in the room were like, Whoa, that's not allowed. You should protest that blah, blah, blah. And they're like, Oh, but it's happened heaps of times and they're just all so shocked, like this shouldn't be happening. You should challenge this, and it's like if it becomes a better part of your everyday life, why [01:34:30] would you? What's the point and the risk associated like the difference between me as a white person? Like if I am stopped in search for drugs, I'll get, like, a tap on the head and be like, Tell me to fuck off! But you know, if I was a different person, you know, and it's so easy, it was just really shocked because they were like, That's so unfair. That can't happen. But it was just like the discussion you have in in Britain in [01:35:00] the eighties. Really, The urban areas, places like Liverpool, London, Bristol, Manchester. All had there was a major outbreak of of protest, um, by black people in leading to riots and stuff like that. Uh, the eight. A stop and search figures hugely. Um, I mean, it was also a very much a thing about whether or not you're going to remove the head gear. Because [01:35:30] the police believe that, um, if you were a raster, then it would be, um it's where you store your pot basically, and so that there was a Noel series of, um I mean, looking at that period of history in the eighties. Really? Um, in Britain is a I think it really reflects probably quite a lot of what's happening here. It continues to happen here. I think the system is very similar in their roots. Um, even if one can look to America [01:36:00] for the outcome of corruption, of the whole system as to where it's going to lead to Yeah, yeah, um, I mean, that's with regard to that. That's why I kind of I see often white. Um, you know, young, white liberal people online will propagate and share. You know, cards of this is these are what your rights are when you're pulled over by the police. This is what you [01:36:30] must tell them. This is what you don't have to say. This is what you can ask for. And I think, Well, this is what you can do when you're white. This is what you can do when you're middle class. As soon as you try to apply those rights as someone who is less privileged, you are being seen as obstructive. And so people who don't understand that you know, my understanding of the search and seizure thing in New York, especially, I think it's made the news a couple of times is that the statistics [01:37:00] show that of all of the, um, the search and seizure of, um, search and stuff stop and search or whatever it's called in New York of black, young black men. They've done it to more young black men than there are young black men in New York, more than one within sort of a years time or something. A lot of times, they they they've studied that. And so there is a It's a definitive statistic that shows the racism inherent in such a policy, like the [01:37:30] reverse onus drug laws in New Zealand. To that you're you're tripling down on the kinds of oppression that are being Yeah, I think one of the the difficult questions which, um, very difficult questions is why are there so many uh, or so few white trans prisoners. Why are they almost universally brown? And I know that Jan has done some work [01:38:00] on, uh, on this. Uh, I don't know if you people know that, Bill, um, and some of incredible stuff has come out, uh, some incredibly transphobic stuff, including the Auckland Auckland City Council. Uh, but also came up with, um, uh, Pacific Island community leaders talking about how, um, these people there were were a danger to the community, and the community needed to be protected [01:38:30] from them. And I'm sitting there listening to this just about self combusting, going for Christ's sake. These are your fucking Children. These are these are these aren't a problem for the community. This is the community. And I came to this perhaps rather dangerous conclusion. The conclusion was that despite what we say, Pacific Island and Maori communities are not, um, universally accepting of trans kids. And indeed, uh, many of them [01:39:00] get kicked out. And if you perhaps live in a low income family, the social stigma attached to going out and being a prostitute is perhaps not very high. Whereas, of course, if you've got a family who I'm not saying are necessarily more accepting, but there is probably huge social stigma attached to having a middle class kid going off and being a prostitute versus, uh, the social stigma of having a child would is Trans. And I think that generally speaking, pakeha [01:39:30] families are probably so fearful of the stigma attached to sex work that they're more inclined to assist uh, their, uh, Children and, uh, not toss them out on the streets. But perhaps, you know, assist them going through the process, assist them to transition and I. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, and this is totally anecdotal. But the kids that are out there on the street in Hunter's corner, some of them are as as young as 10. Um, most of them are sort of, you know, 14 to 16. [01:40:00] Um, no, they're not under age that have the, um, the community based organisations And they've been and they're not. It's not over 16 18. I think they're [01:40:30] talking about that last night because there's been a lot of spin in in that that simply and then the people that do all the outreach work are telling us that that's not the case. but regardless of the age that it's predominantly brown and because middle class kids get into the brothels and that that's the distinction is that if you have alcohol and drug issues, you more likely to be Trans [01:41:00] or Maori Pacifica. It's harder to get the job in the brothels. And if you don't present in the way that's fixed the social marketing of the brothel, you know you're gonna be And you know you want to make money, it's going to be on the streets. Um, I do feel like I should point out, um, no, it's good that it is lunchtime now, Um, so we should probably close up, but, um, this has been really awesome a discussion, so thank you [01:41:30] to everyone for participating.

IRN: 771
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_conference_session_11.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004276
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089570
TITLE: Session 11 - Beyond conference
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Bill Logan; Calum Bennachie; Jim Whitman; Jo Wrigley; Sara Fraser
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Barry Curtis; Beyond conference (2013); Bill Logan; Calum Bennachie; Campaign for Marriage Equality; Civil Union Act (2004); Gender and Sexual Diversity At Work (2013); Gordon Copeland; HIV / AIDS; Jo Wrigley; Le'au Asenati Lole-Taylor; LegaliseLove (Wellington); Manukau City Council (Control of Street Prostitution) Bill (2005); Manukau City Council (Regulation of Prostitution in Specified Places) Bill (2010); Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Marriage Equality Conference (2012); NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; New Zealand Labour Party; Out at Work Network; The Queer Avengers (Wellington); Wellington; Wellington High School; activism; brothels; civil unions; discrimination; diversity; gay; health; homophobia; homosexual law reform; lesbian; marriage equality; media; politics; prison; privilege; queer; sex work; stigma; transgender; transphobia; unions; youth
DATE: 12 October 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington High School, 251-281 Taranaki Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the session: Fighting homophobia, transphobia and bigotry in our communities.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Everybody. Welcome back for this evening session. I should introduce a panel with apologies. First that were too short. Not too short, but too, um, to Logan, I'm sure is familiar to many of you as a family member of proven. He is a longtime troublemaker. Um, we have standing in tonight [00:00:30] for Catherine Callum and a who works with Catherine, and we'll be talking about similar stuff, including the And there we have Joe Wrigley as a member of Out at work, the Council of Trade Unions, Network for lesbian, gay, bisexual, intersex, Transgender and five union members. So they'll give their wee presentations in a moment. We'll just have a hopefully have a really fantastic discussion. So cool. Thank you. [00:01:00] Go up. It would be nice to be able to say that when people are fucked over when they're oppressed, they naturally ally with one another, unite with one another, respect one another, and everything is happy, but it don't actually in practise easily work out that way. The truth is that [00:01:30] because oppression oppresses because people are fucked over by their economic circumstances by the shit they face in life, they're sometimes not actually in the best position to judge how to make alliances or even what's in their own interest, let alone what's decent. And so we fuck each other over, and that's the truth of it. And [00:02:00] it happens all over the place. Um, and we notice it in the different rivalries we have. Uh uh uh, in our political campaigns, we notice it, uh, and and we are usually assure that we are in the right and the other person isn't. And that's not always the case. I noticed this first, I think [00:02:30] probably in the early days of the AIDS scare, when we were all absolutely terrified and we started to learn something about HIV aids and we were being got at. We were being got at by the media and we were being got out by authority in general and gay people were being seen and pointed out [00:03:00] as the carriers of this terrible disease which could be caught off, uh, door knobs and things like that. But gay people were responsible for it, and, um, it was a terrifying situation. It was a AAA disease which was going to kill you very, very quickly. And there was this huge phobia that developed about her. And in that context, they developed [00:03:30] a kind of hierarchy of, um, competitive oppression within the groups of people affected by, uh, HIV or AIDS. It was even before there was something called HIV aids uh, AAA and we we didn't know what it was, but it was this gay plague. It started to be called Ark and AIDS A and and we [00:04:00] we, um we we we realised that it had must have something to do with sexual transmission. Uh, but of course, we were very eager to prove that we weren't the ones that were primarily responsible. It was someone else who was more a danger to the community because everyone was saying we were danger of community and and and and and gay men. And I must confess that I thought this way myself briefly, uh, tended [00:04:30] to think Well, probably more important in the spread of HIV. And it's inevitable spread to the heterosexual community, which we were told about. More important than gay people would be particular groups of gay people like married gay people. Or perhaps it would be prostitutes. Or perhaps it would be, um, drug users, intravenous drug users they would be the real vector of transmission. And so there was this [00:05:00] impulse to to put down to to to point out, to to degrade, uh, other groups of people and, of course, people who are more further down the hierarchy of oppression of oppression than one was oneself. No, of course, that way of thinking is a recipe for disaster, because [00:05:30] actually, all of us were being affected by AIDS. Actually, all of us were capable of spreading it to other people. Actually, all of us could take measures to make sure that we didn't spread it to other people. And actually, the real way to stop the spread of HIV had nothing to do with any of us, but rather to do with public health policies and things like that which were beyond [00:06:00] any individual. Uh, but the secret to getting out of the ghastly situation of mass hysteria about HIV was not to put each other down, but to get together to create a united front, to work out what we had in common to support each other to help build each other's organisations [00:06:30] for gay men to ally with sex workers to for gay men to align with intravenous drug users, uh, and and anyone else that we can get hold of to ally with it. In fact, um, the the people who are most who are least likely to get H HIV are lesbians. And they were some of our very best allies. But they saw the way in which HIV was being used [00:07:00] to create homophobia, which in turn, of course, are pressed in and so that they could see a logic besides a a AAA simple human connection a logic, a political logic in a in joining the alliance against HIV hysteria because it was also AAA an alliance against homophobia and and and and that principle of of standing back from the struggle [00:07:30] and resisting the human temptation to find someone else to blame rather to to To To to see how there there is a fundamental underlying unity between all these different oppressions is is crucial for us to to to, um, to make progress. Uh, and it's interesting because those alliances [00:08:00] that were created when we started to put the things together those alliances have stuck together pretty well, uh, for, uh, yeah. What, 35 years or something? now, Um uh, in this town anyway, and I think in other places. But, you know, I think that we've been lucky, um, in in creating alliances Where Where? Um uh, queer communities and, uh, intravenous [00:08:30] drug using communities and sex workers A actually fight well together. And where there is, I hope a better, uh, recognition of the dangers of different layers of queer communities getting each at each other. But it comes up with every struggle, it comes up again. And we saw it, and they struggled for marriage reform. [00:09:00] We saw ways in which there was a tendency for, uh, some people to think that the radicals were going to undermine and damage and hurt the the the the struggle for for marriage reform, Uh, and, uh, a huge amount of suspicion and and and and and and and and nastiness behind it. That was really quite [00:09:30] the main danger, actually, as I saw it, to the, um to to marriage reform was often the fear that someone was going to hurt the campaign, and therefore people had to be controlled carefully because they were dangerous. And that's the same kind of thing. Showing itself again. Uh, and and, um, that that's that's something that we've got to work to try to overcome [00:10:00] because, uh, where there is a basis for political unity where there's a common objective, we might as well get the people who have a common objective to work together on it, for God's sake, even if there's differences on the reasoning and the the the the arguments behind it. Um, even if we want to say, uh, all sorts of political criticism that can be completely different [00:10:30] to the fear and AAA and and nastiness, which sometimes, well, every time tends to crop up but can be talked through. And it's a matter of that patient talking through of the, uh uh uh, the the, uh, attempted putdowns. Uh, that's important, all right, that that right? [00:11:00] Just wait for that to heat up. But my name's Callum be. I work for the New Zealand prostitutes' collective and what I'm going to be talking about today when this heats up, what is and who is NZ PC to start off with? NZ PC started in 1987 we with a group of people who were sex workers and allies. They met in beaches on street corners in what cafes you had around about in the 19 eighties, early 19 eighties, [00:11:30] mid 19 eighties and in bars talking with each other about their employment rights and also about sexual and reproductive health issues. Um, because just at that time, HIV was becoming quite big, as Bill has addressed already. And the first place that NZ PC had in Wellington was on Cuba street with NZ PC, where the people living with AIDS Union and wide, which is now drugs, health development project [00:12:00] the needle exchange. So, yes, we've got all groups in one building as if we were untouchable. To some people, we contracted with the Ministry of Health and its predecessors. Since 1988 we have community bases in Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch and Dunedin. Um, we do outreach as well not only to within each city, but also to, um, other parts of the country. So Auckland covers from the southern fringes of Auckland right [00:12:30] up through um, Tauranga goes right across through Hamilton down through, up to and across to Gisborne. Uh, Wellington just does coast and sometimes up to the Hawke's Bay because we do have an outreach worker in north who goes from right across through the Hawkes Bay um, Christchurch. Their outreach covers from Timaru North and Dunedin from South. We are [00:13:00] a rights based organisation. OK, some people think that we are a condom vending machine. But no, we're not. We're a rights based organisation. We have a couple of websites, one of which is currently under development. And that's the bottom one. The first one is the one that we're mostly using. So how do we do things? We talk with NGO S, government organisations and we provide advice and sometimes policy advice to those groups. Um that support positive sexuality in New Zealand. [00:13:30] Sometimes we also get invited to go overseas. Um Canada, Vienna. Other places like that. Um, we provide sexual and reproductive health resources to all people in the sex industry, not just sex workers, but also to brothel operators as well. OK, we provide a supportive environment within our community and BA basis. People can just pop in for a coffee, check whatever to help them understand some of the things that they may be facing. [00:14:00] We strengthen strategic alliances within the sexual health groups as well, and we look towards reducing stigma and sexual violence as well as, um, STIs. So who are sex workers? It's not similar at all to the population demographics. Um, more than just over half of them are European. Just over 30% are Maori, 5% Pacific Island and 13% other. The other [00:14:30] consists of all of Asia. That's from Japan, right through Southeast Asia, India, right to the Middle East. So that's a large group of ethnicities in there. Africa, African Americans, Caribbean and all of South America. So it's quite a large group. 85% of sex industry are women, 9% are male and 6% are trans. Now, all these figures come from, um, the study that was done by Gillian Abel in [00:15:00] 2007. But I do have to point out sexual orientation doesn't mean much at all. When you're working as a sex worker, we have men, gay men who work with female clients, straight men who work with male clients, the largest group of gay for pay. If you want to put it that way, uh, the straight guys. But the largest group of straight for pay and lesbians, [00:15:30] most of it is indoor. That's your brothels, massage or previously, about massage powers. Things like that and only 17% of it is outdoor. But you would tend to think by media representations that the outdoor sex industry is absolutely massive, and the indoor sex industry is hardly talked about at all things now. Of the indoor sex industry, around about 62% are big owner operated brothels. It's the managed brothels like Splash and Um, [00:16:00] Paris and lower huts and various other ones like that, Um, but 38% of them are people who are working privately by themselves or with one or two others from their own homes. OK, and that's very important to remember now. The count that we did in 2007 with the School of Medicine showed that there were 230 sex workers on the streets in Auckland. OK, 16% of the total number of sex workers in Auckland were working [00:16:30] on the streets. I want you to remember that figure because in 2004 the police estimated that the number of street based sex workers in all of Auckland were 360. I want you to remember that figure as well. At the moment, you're probably aware that we're having problems with a bill going through parliament regarding the City Council. Now the Auckland council published a little booklet, and this is one of the [00:17:00] images taken from that booklet, along with the blood that they have used now. I've specifically highlighted part of that in the down time. We're also approaching passers by and asking for money. I want you to remember that a little bit as well. OK, so is there stigma against sex workers? Sex workers previously operated privately as well, prior to the Prostitution Reform Act, in residential areas close to churches close to schools, [00:17:30] various other places. Um, prior to law reform, though, stigma kept those private operators very quiet about where they were. And a lot of people in the general population didn't know that they might actually be living beside a brothel. When I was with my first boyfriend, he didn't realise that the house beside us were two private sex workers operating from their own home, quite happily took him about a year to realise. [00:18:00] OK, um, you can still run a brothel from your own home and the I put up the Matthew That's a couple in the Hamilton Wake region. They are able to be quite open about owning a managed brothel in Hamilton. Laura Farm has therefore had some effect in helping to destigmatize the sex industry. But there are very strong examples of stigma against street [00:18:30] based sex workers from right throughout society. In in particular, there are claims that they're causing trouble, that they're urinating and defecating on the streets and leaving condoms and other offensive litter. Now I've taken a walk through. Yes, there are some condoms. Yes, there is a lot of offensive litter. There is a lot of other litter as well. The rubbish bins are often the street. Rubbish bins are often packed overflowing. The litter [00:19:00] that I saw included normal household items that were wind blown along the streets because of whatever. Yes, they do get wind in Auckland. It's not just Wellington, um, it also included school lunch boxes. Obviously it didn't like, and it was a guy's name that was written on it. Things he obviously didn't like what Mum and picked him for lunch that day and decided that this threw it over the fence, but it also included nappies, disposable nappies and tampons. And sex [00:19:30] workers don't use tampons. They use sponges. OK, so those tempos could not have been from sex workers. Similarly, sex workers don't take their Children out on the streets with them. When they're working, they leave them at home in the care of someone. So those nappies could not have been for sex. Workers trouble on the streets in the same areas that the sex workers are working from a night. There are bars. There are nightclubs. There are fast food joints. [00:20:00] So the noise isn't just from sex workers, but who gets the blame. The man City Council, in its wisdom, decided to close the public toilets at six o'clock every night. So you get people coming at the bars at 11. 12. 123 in the morning. And what happens? They wander along the street, Had a few to drink. Oh, I need a piss. Oh, fucking toilets Shut. I'm right [00:20:30] there. So and yet again, sex workers get the blame. There were claims that numbers of street based sex workers had quadrupled or had increased 400% at that time. Now these have been shown to be false. These are the types of things that people are actually saying about sex workers in South Auckland, that they are vectors of disease, [00:21:00] that they are a bunch of scrubbers and wouldn't touch them with a totem pole. OK, so that's the type of things that's been said. But it's not only your letter writer to the newspaper that is saying such things. Gordon Copeland, former um MP Sir Barry Curtis, former mayor of man, also saying sex workers in me are victims of disease, so street based sex workers in particular, are targeted as polluters with human and other dangerous [00:21:30] waste as vectors of disease. There's a lot of NIMBYism not in my backyard going on, and they're also treated as the drugs of society that people don't want to associate with. People feel safe in stigmatising sex street based sex workers because oh, everybody does it. This, however, results in greater violence and attempts at legislative change. Now the Man City Council, um, put in a bill into Parliament in 2005 [00:22:00] that failed because it was against the Bill of Rights and Parliament didn't want to, um, put laws into one area without the rest of the country. Um, in 2010, they tried again because of the change of government. And, um, that bill is soon to be renamed the Auckland Council Bill because of the changes up there. And it is definitely fueled by stigma against sex workers and transgender people. You saw the image earlier. OK, [00:22:30] now just a little bit about how stigma actually operates. It operates in three ways. Firstly, you have the societal hostility. It's embedded within cultural ideologies. Secondly, how those ideologies are expressed through societal structure and, lastly, how individuals internalise those ideologies. Now that all of these ideas date back a lot further than he, they date back [00:23:00] to at least all important 54 who talked about extra punitive, which is the stigma that is outside a person and interp punitive stigma. How stigma is felt within yourself. OK, so how you feel about yourself affects how things happen. It's often claimed that self esteem is a risk factor. It is a factor in risky behaviour like unsafe sex. But research [00:23:30] within New Zealand shows that no, it's not. It's actually stigma. The greater amount of stigma that a person feels, the higher the chance of risky behaviour and other risk and other sexual behaviours occurring. So what does it do? It views. It causes that person to view themselves negatively. It reduces their expectation. It increases risk behaviour such as alcohol and drug use. Safe sex. [00:24:00] These in turn, affect how others view that person. And so it goes on nicely circled nicely circled round and round we go. So it's therefore a need to educate society about the problems faced by transgender street based sex workers in particular, and how societal attitudes feed the stigma and prejudices. One of the things that is being done, it's in the planning stages at the moment. And that's the New Zealand project plan to eliminate stigma and discrimination associated with HIV and a ID. Now just [00:24:30] a little bit about the man bill in itself. This bill allows a local body to make bylaws that stops sex workers that prohibits sex workers from operating in the streets in certain areas. OK, the trouble is, what about sex workers who live in those prohibited areas? What about sex workers [00:25:00] who are walking through shopping in those prohibited areas? If road in Auckland has made a prohibited area, and sex workers are coming out of our community base on K Road with condoms and loops and everything like that. Will those condoms and loops be used as evidence against them? Will they be accused of working on the streets even if they are managed in a brothel or working from their own home? The [00:25:30] bill allows arrest on suspicion it doesn't only allow the arrest of sex workers, but also clients. And Peter Dunn put it very nicely when he said when we were talking with him about the bill, he said, That's not on. If I was to take my daughter downtown and the policeman saw me giving her money as she left the car, I could be arrested. [00:26:00] That's just not on. So he realised then how dangerous this bill could be has far more wide reaching effects than what was initially planned. There are a lot of things that are going on around the bill. It's currently before a select committee. The select committee is still discussing it. We don't know exactly what's going on or what will come out of that. Hopefully they will do the same with this bill that they did with the previous [00:26:30] one. However, it's a very different government that we have nowadays. Now I want you to think about the numbers of street based sex workers that I mentioned earlier. Remember, there were 360 street based sex workers estimated by the police in 2004, 2005. When the first bill is put in, the numbers have quadrupled, and that was the reason for putting the bill in because we need to control [00:27:00] these bad people. And yet, in 2008, 2007, a account, an accurate count of sex workers over a full year shows they were only 230 is 234 times 3 60. No, what we need to do is to try and change attitudes. So that image that we showed you before that the Auckland council used perhaps it could have had that [00:27:30] because this sets what we she lives on road. That's a flat meat. OK, the old person beside her is one of her neighbours, right under the bill because she's seen talking with someone [00:28:00] on her own street which is one of the streets that would be classed as a no go area for sex workers. She could be arrested. OK, but if it had had this there instead and we're talking to the neighbours after being her shopping, that would have reduced stigma. Thank you. [00:28:30] My name is Doe Wrigley. I'm, um, really aware that the entire time over the last two days, we've been in this, uh, beautiful buddy that I have not [00:29:00] worthy. And, um, from my background, I've I've spent two days now slightly frightened that, uh and black is gonna shoot out of nowhere and track me one. Um, so please excuse my nervousness, but I would like to acknowledge the room that we're in before I can turn me on. My name is Joe R. I work for [00:29:30] the New Zealand Nurses Organisation is a lead organiser. I'm also the convenor for a group called out at work, which is the for lack of a better expression. The Rainbow Network LGBTI Q network for the Council of Trade Unions in New Zealand and unions in this country are organ they organise. [00:30:00] I'm not sure how many of you understand what organising actually is, but it operates in what we call the organising diamond. The organising diamond involves those people who are our members. It involves identifying what the issues are that affect those members. It involves educating people to organise around those issues, and the final part of that diamond is leverage. And by educating people [00:30:30] to overcome those issues, we can get some leverage. And we talk to our communities and networks and politicians, and we create change. People often think of us creating that change in wages and conditions. But the other, the ultimate goal of unions, um is is to create social justice. Um, the International Trade Union Congress representatives spoke to [00:31:00] us this week at our own conference here in Wellington, and I think that, um, her name is Sharon Burrows. And she captured it when she said, You know, the role of unions is to create a more inclusive movement that speaks for working people and their families. And of course, that includes everybody that it doesn't matter if you're queer. If you're rainbow if you're Maori. If you're Pacifica. If you're a young person, it's an all encompassing statement. [00:31:30] Out at work hasn't been around very long in the big scheme of unions before the human rights conference. Um, here in Wellington, um, we we undertook some research amongst unions because, you know, unions got all with that created this group called out at work about 2004. Fabulous. We'll [00:32:00] have a camp with a K every two years and we'll let you know those gay folk go there great doing our bit. We did some research just before the Human rights conference of union organisers. The people who represent everybody about what LGBTI we didn't have the QE at that point meant there were very, very [00:32:30] few. It was it was alarming. It was embarrassing how many people didn't know what that stood for. What was even more embarrassing was a number of union organisers who said that there weren't any gay members in the union and then sitting alongside that with a number of union organisers who said that they they'd know if he was to be able to see them, and so therefore they were in there because they hadn't seen any mhm. [00:33:00] So, um, a couple of us, my colleague from the, uh, service and Food Workers union and myself pulled this in and we started to work with the unions and our network and then our network picked up that mantle and we we presented that what came out of that was then, you know, everybody agreed that we needed to change that in the union movement of the Union movement was going to be [00:33:30] the place for everybody. What's come out of that over the last couple of years is is a resource called the gender and sexual diversity at work and the goal of this resource. What it's aimed first and foremost at union organisers and and we're hoping to create change with it. And the idea is that unions are going to train their staff. And then those staff are going to train their delegates [00:34:00] because we know that we have low engagement with, you know, the rainbow community because nobody knows how to talk to them. Well, you know, there's there's, you know, the token ones out there, but like, you know, generally, when they're talking to their workplace delegate, there's not, you know, they may not even be out at work, so there's a whole myriad of problems there, so we've created a resource with the hope of some amazing people, including Marie Mitchell. [00:34:30] Um and it's called the gender and sexual diversity at work. Now the goal of this resource is to dispel myths and stereotypes, raise awareness of issues, provide language and tools for inclusiveness. For the organisations, there are opportunities for them to develop diversity metrics and track career advancement [00:35:00] to consider how inclusive or their own organisational goals are for individuals. This resource is going to hopefully teach them a myriad of things. Most importantly, it helps to. It aims to help demonstrate an individual's acceptance of LGBTI Q members in visible ways. The next steps that this resources [00:35:30] completely LGBTI Q. It's a big It's a big ask that we have here and it's a big task we have in front of us. It's very gorgeous, too. We're very proud of it and we include lots of interesting things, like video intersection, [00:36:00] wonderful graphics. This is my particular favourite. I want to say again, we know that we have to start from a base of my knowledge. We can't even say they're two bracket chicken [00:36:30] because a good deal of it is ignorance. You're dealing with people who embroil their every component of their life the social justice issues and fighting and fighting and fighting for what is right. And just and unbeknownst to them, they could be called bigots. However, we are about to embark upon the brave task of educating [00:37:00] ignorance. Wish us luck. Um, we're hopeful for this. And we hope that by the time we come round to two years time with another CTU conference, we'll be able to survey and show that we're making some inroads, that we we're moving ahead. There's another part of this task, though. And, um, it probably goes to some of the the conversation, um, around [00:37:30] white privilege today because the next part of this journey is to work with our other Council of Trade Union councils, um such as Pacifica, and work with them because they will work with those members to work with and work with them. We already work with them. They're really cool, [00:38:00] um, and and widen our spread. It's a big challenge, and it's a big issue for unions, but it's one that we are hoping to lead the whale. One of the most incredible advances for our rights within the Union movement has come [00:38:30] through a partnership with the youth union movement. The people that have helped us drive change in the union movement are the young people. And for that we're really grateful and amazed and honoured to be working with them. I can't think of anything else really useful to say about it other than we're hoping to do some millionaire education. And of course, I bought pamphlets and you're [00:39:00] welcome to take one that's more on the table. And they're Thank you so much to all our speakers here. It's really old because he's a Colorado kind of stand here. Um, we just haven't open the floor for some questions. So, um yeah, questions to any of the speakers or any points of discussion. Um, this is really a chance for people [00:39:30] to, um have a say and and and get some ideas happening in terms of what's already happening and what we could be doing in the future. So if you are interested in speaking, can you just go round the pillar and just kind of give me a little bit of a signal? And then I'll just point to you? Yeah. Cool. So, um yeah. Hi. Just to Joe having gone to, um, the last meeting, [00:40:00] though, Um, just it's interesting because one of the things I found interesting was that the idea of changing the banks to trade unions from being trade based or, you know, quite specific areas of the economy to like any a, well, what appear to be out of a group of people. I mean, a community, for instance, Or, um, a bunch of gays, for instance. So then allowing them to self organise, you know, the idea of self organisation lying behind [00:40:30] the idea of them benefiting also from being part of the trade union movement as well. Um uh, I mean, it's something that stuck in my mind. But how do you do you What? What is your thoughts on that? OK, I'm positive, though. The the I guess it's the the trade union movement and the Union movement as a whole is trying really hard to, um, maintain its relevance. [00:41:00] We have, uh, we have that generation thing. It came up somewhere today where there were two generations of people missing. Um, so we we have older unionists who have been unionists since you know, the day they started work 40 to 50 years ago. And we have young unionists who are passionate coming through, and they've discovered this new social movement. Then they're like, Wow, why has nobody ever told me about this? What we have, you know, and what's just common sense is that the union movement and other movements for social change, [00:41:30] um are are one and the same. They just, you know, one has a membership, and one is anybody who is passionate about an issue. So there's a common thread there. Yeah, it's about making alliances and creating social change that benefit everybody. Thank you. Uh, sure. I guess someone will speak to, uh, I guess, uh, ask the bill a question. Um, I appreciate what you have to say about, [00:42:00] um, building alliances and particularly about what happened with, uh, the campaign and how, um, there was quite a lot of, I guess reaction within, um, parts of the LGBT queer community about about the radicals in the campaign and how they were going to, you know, spoil marriage equality. And I was wondering, um, what your thoughts were because my experience to that campaign is that, actually, um, having come through that we've ended up on on [00:42:30] actually on the on the back foot in that, um within that campaign, they were very successful in in marginalising a lot of community voices, and we weren't really able to create the effective sort of relationships that we needed to do to be able to really challenge that in a really substantiated way. And I wanted to know what your thoughts were. Reflections were on that and how it went and possibly what you could see, sort of going forward how we might do that bit better. We did a lot better this time around [00:43:00] than we have in past struggles in that in past struggles, the victory has completely gutted the movement, and it's gone to sleep for 10 years. The point is that this conference is roughly the same size as you might have got a year ago, and that is pretty damn good in terms of the the history of these things. [00:43:30] Um, and victory is a very dangerous thing, Uh, because it make because you get all these people fighting for something and they achieve it and they fool themselves that this is perfect. Life is wonderful now and they go away. But of course, it is just a subset who feel like that. And the people who have gone [00:44:00] away are the, um, the law students, um, who probably weren't on the whole likely to be a core part of the radical movement going forward, um, and and and and so I don't think we have lost all that much. Um, I think that we've learned a little bit about politics. [00:44:30] I think we've made some advances, uh, to, uh, in in our links. What had what was unfortunate, I think, is that some of the very best of radical queers were alienated from the campaign and have thought have reached the conclusion that that that that radical politics gets, they were [00:45:00] convinced of the reasons to fight for marriage law reform. I think that our main failure was in in failing to convince our own left wing that it was in their interests to join this campaign, that it would actually be a defeat for homophobia. Uh, not the biggest defeat in the world. Not as significant [00:45:30] as the law students thought it was going to be. But it was an important defeat for homophobia. And so I think that that was our main failure. And if we if we've managed to keep that left, we would now be come out. We would now be in a lot stronger position than we are. But we have We have made some wings. We have recruited some people. Thank you. Um, I did want to speak to the marriage equality campaign, not having [00:46:00] been involved with that team, I think what happened is the content did get lost as Bill mentioned because, um, Dynamics, um, grew that learned, um, conducive to relationships. And though it may be questioned by those that have another view of when it comes to beyond marriage to [00:46:30] us, that was, um, a sacred milestone that we wanted to achieve at that time. And I think because the dynamics occurred before we could talk, it was lost in translation between each other. Therefore, I don't think we saw each other's point of view, um, too well, and that was right from the outset. The other, um, situation [00:47:00] that arose was that was tabled that potentially the campaign would be lost without the crew Avengers. Um, that didn't go down too well. And, um, from that point, things just deteriorated dramatically. So what pushed into what would cool [00:47:30] common grounds that we had? Where I didn't see that we had any at that time. Well, I thought we were all fighting for a law reform. So is there anything else on that question? Are you [00:48:00] sorry? I do have a speaking order there, Ian. Um, but we can keep talking about this topic. Um, I just got to stick to that, and I've got Kara next. Ok, well, I'm going to completely change the subject, um, and go, um, to the sex work reform stuff. Um, I was just wondering, I mean, obviously the mainstream media in New Zealand, to put it lightly is not great. Um, and [00:48:30] I know that there's been, uh, if I mean, there's a document that exists about, like, where and trans issues and how to report them sensitively. Um, I was just wondering if there's anything similar on sex worker stuff. Not that I specifically think that because there's one on trans issues. It makes people report things any better, is the whole misgender of recent times has shown, But I was just wondering. I mean, obviously it's something that would take a lot of time and effort and work, and you [00:49:00] guys do a whole lot already. But I was just wondering if there's anything along. Those lines isn't But each of the media areas report in different ways. The press is more conservative than the Herald, for example, although you would tend to think otherwise. The Dominion Post tends to reflect the cosmopolitan issues in Wellington better than [00:49:30] the other two. Major newspapers to The Dominion Post has a very good attitude towards sex workers, and, um, there is no real problem there with the Herald. Um, there is one reporter in particular who tends to be a bit shock horror, And, um, unfortunately, he's written some articles that [00:50:00] the way they're written, it tends to increase stigma rather than what tends to actually address the issue. I've noticed a lot of like, really, really bad reporting. I've seen they just go around and interview kind of concerned citizens and maybe that woman from New Zealand first, whose name I can't remember. Yeah, and just kind of put them all in one article and just don't go for any other years the [00:50:30] claims that have been made by us. We can't find any evidence pointing to the truth of them. The police can't find any evidence pointing to the truth of them. Um, she supposedly goes out with someone from the Maori wardens who we know has been very anti sex worker and very, very anti transgender, um, and has said some quite horrific things about transgender sex workers, actually, But, um, the [00:51:00] so called 13 year olds that she's claiming are working on the street. We can't find the police. Can't find sis can't find any trace of them. She's blaming those young people for being out in the street. But why are they out on the street? What's happening at home that's making them go out on the street? The Manukau City Council passed the by law in 2004 as a knee jerk reaction to the Prostitution of Farm Act, saying that people couldn't operate their own brothels within [00:51:30] a residential area. Now that includes nearly all of manuka. The private sex workers that were in that area could not afford to hire commercial um premises in the centre of city, so some of them opted to work on the street. Not many, but some of them did. Um, Nevertheless, the total number of sex workers working on the streets in America actually dropped. There are claims of 30 or 40 sex [00:52:00] workers hanging out at certain corners. Um, the police have been past that corner, and we have been past that corner on a nightly outreach, and we've counted a maximum of six people. Sounds like a taste. Give his money. Now, the, um the, um one of the things I was talking about in punitive, um, stigma about stigma is spelled. You [00:52:30] can actually see that in some of the reports that are made in Auckland, in the in the media, like it's those sex workers over there. They're the ones that are causing the problem. I'm OK. I don't do that sort of thing. Or it's those sex workers that are over there. They're always fried. You can't trust them. They're always fried. But I don't do that sort of thing. So you can see that sort of in an interp punitive felt? Yeah, it's other than the others. And that, [00:53:00] at from one particular reporter in Auckland, who we feel should be Thank you. Um, I had kay down next. Um I've been observing some of the government actions recently across a range of areas. That seems to be, I don't know, a slick management of issues relating to marginalised people in a give and take basis in a lot of areas. [00:53:30] Um, and I'm I'm interested in the comment and I'll give the example of because of pressure from a number of groups and recent research, the minister of corrections is saying, OK, we're going to change the policy relating to transgender people in prisons. So that's sort of like a giving potentially, although probably officials something positive. On the one hand, and in the same week, the Auckland District [00:54:00] Health Board says, OK, we're closing the Auckland, um trans health clinic, um, because of funding issues and we'll still engage with with clients, but basically they're shutting down the service. So you've got a a sort of a group of, you know, two groups of trans people being affected potentially, positively, potentially negatively one. It won't cost the government much to do, um, a small change, the other taking money out of it. And I'm sure that there's lots [00:54:30] of other areas where something that doesn't cost much like marriage equality, you see, like, Hey, we're giving you something nice, but at the same time taking away in areas and and to me, this seems like a really, I don't know, slick way of managing potentially discontented sort of people to, you know, it shuts down the scent. And I don't know if you know any of you've got views on that I. I think that the the current [00:55:00] government has I like Slick as a word. I think that, um over the past two terms, they've They've been the masters of announcing things and seeing how how much human cry happens and how loud that is and then moderating the position accordingly so that they come out as fair and reasonable people because people because they've listened and that's that's that's how it's perceived and how it's [00:55:30] reported in the media. And I think it's a really dangerous thing. Um, I have I next week, so just on the issue, um, Merv was raising, um, like I think partly I agree There was there was an an issue of, uh, communication. I think communication is the way you put it. Or like, um, something like that. Um, that I mean, I think there was some. [00:56:00] There was some There's some good work that was done and as Bill says, I think it kind of that they kind of lay lay the basis from some ongoing stuff. But definitely. I think one thing that a couple of people I've spoken to have taken from what Craven was putting out was that we had a problem with people who wanted to get married. Um, and you know, that was never really the issue. But it was more that, um that there were other that there was a a more fundamental structural [00:56:30] thing that needed to happen and that, um also that the career was actually approached to be involved in the campaign. And yet when we came to meetings, we were told not to talk about polyamory, not to talk about trans issues. So it was like, You have to be involved in the campaign, but you're not actually allowed to say what you think kind of thing. You can only to this party line, which is basically quite a safe party line that was really intending to appeal, to make sure that they got the and all that kind of thing [00:57:00] and, like, I mean, so for us, it was more that we need, you know, to be able to address, Um, you know that there's a problem with, like, the sort of single issue politics. If if it means that, um, that you basically certain oppressed groups don't really matter kind of thing. Um, because because you've got this issue and you can deal with it later kind of thing. So that was that was really how it how it played out for us. Um, particularly, yeah, particularly in [00:57:30] terms of being told that we're gonna be in this campaign. We had to not say certain things which are important to say, but yeah, um, in response to that, See, I had no idea that he had been that would have, I guess, changed the campaign's perception that that invitation was extended. And I must admit, if I was invited and then more or less told to leave your properly at the door, well, that wouldn't have gone down well. And secondly, it seemed that there has been, um, a condition [00:58:00] put up on the campaign that without, um, another string being put in for queer Avengers. That the conference was, um, at risk. So I remember that that made people feel jittery also. And I think the other factor was that if I was part of Queer Avengers at that time, I would have tried to leverage, I guess, myself. But I think because of the initial misunderstanding, it seemed like [00:58:30] that was trying to he in on marriage equality and from then so I guess huge lessons learned when rainbow organisations seek to collaborate, um, with each other to hopefully mitigate against these misunderstandings, I don't really think there was any enough understanding of perfect understanding. Uh, the fact is that queer Avengers had a programme [00:59:00] which included, uh, marriage rights, but also improved other things. But the Queer Avengers was openly a leftist activist organisation and leftist activism scares Labour Party lawyers. And that was the background. And there might have been miscommunications and people might not have heard things and so on. [00:59:30] But that background on the one side, Labour Party lawyers on the other side, queer activists. There was a tension there and there was bound to be tension that is in the nature of things we have got to get used to the fact that a coalition is a coalition and a coalition, uh is a political spread. And there is tension between the left and the right that is absolutely [01:00:00] crucial. And containing that tension is the secret of every reform we have made. We had that intention in 85 86 and we contained it. We had that contention last year and we were contained It It was difficult this time around because it was very difficult to control the right. [01:00:30] The right was pretty rapid. The the people who were attacking the left were pretty rapid. They tried to get that way in in 85 86 too, but we managed to get it through to them. You right wing, you nice conservative people. We didn't call him a right wing in this context because you, you nice conservative people who don't like action and are scared that the left is are going to spoil it for us at all. You actually need the left and the left needs [01:01:00] the right. We've got to be together. And that's what a coalition is all about. But the right actually believed they didn't need the left in this last campaign and they got offended. And we said, Actually, you need us. We we don't need you at all. That's a terribly offensive thing to say. Bullshit. You did need us. We were an important part of the conference. Wouldn't have [01:01:30] happened without us. Actually, I'm not saying that that the that the reform wouldn't have gone through, but there wouldn't have been nearly as much power behind. Not as many votes in them. It was It was we. Actually, the left, the getting the left and the right together was important in this. Now I'm not for always the left and the right getting together. I think that sometimes the left and the right should fight it out. But will they actually agree on something that is a a lawful [01:02:00] then that should be together. And we did actually agree and had to be a strip on. It would have been nonsense. Jo, did you wanna add something? Yeah, I. I did wanna add something because, um uh, the youth union movement and now at work, put a re, you know, governance remit thing to the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions and all of the unions endorsed the legalised love campaign, [01:02:30] Um, which was significant in itself. You know, these were national secretaries of unions and people like the meat workers unions had no idea when they endorsed how they were actually going to, um, explain that to the membership. Um, because they did it without consulting their membership. They did it in basic union, you know, Social justice and equality principles. So why why wouldn't they, um, with an out at work there was There was discussion, You know, where the real problem with the campaign, the campaign to all intents, purposes was [01:03:00] for gay men and lesbian women that excluded everybody else As far as the the public image of the campaign went, however, you know, with homes right now, and it's done and dusted. And all of the, um, he unionists have celebrated with us and patted themselves on the back and gone. Yeah, we're great people. We've been able to engage in conversations about what was wrong with the campaign. You know who wasn't represented and [01:03:30] and we can further our work and and and we have the luxury now, as a result of this last change in the movement to actually move things forward, and we've got people who want to be educated about what it is they're missing out on where their knowledge gaps are and why it is that, you know, they get called straight and he and other things which they are beginning to think might be slightly offensive terms, but they're not quite sure why. Um, [01:04:00] and and I think that's been a good thing from it. So so kind of like the the Civil Union bill at the time. You know, it was like a one small step forward for some people. Um, the change that came about out of that is significant. And and I think that we need to acknowledge that it was, you know, even though it didn't represent the entire community, Um, there are better things [01:04:30] to come because of it. Thanks for that. Um, I've got a I've got a few more on this side of the room. I just want to ask. I noticed there's been has it been as many people putting their hand up from over this area, and if anybody wants to say anything But if you're quite content to listen and learn this sweet um, Joel Yeah, I I think part of this is a discussion of learning how to win as well. And I think often on [01:05:00] the left we're so used to losing that we almost preconditioned to expect to lose and so we don't really think enough of actually how to win and what's required to win because I remember talking to friends from Australia when I was like, Yeah, two thirds of the National Party Conference have voted in support of marriage, equality stuff and I was like What we're fighting with with Labour to get there with the Labour Party over there to get there. This is insane And so I was like Well, you guys are running like this big campaign Tens of thousands of people were mobilising and stuff. Maybe you stop campaigning [01:05:30] and he just like, let it let it come natural to think what what what's happened here? Kind of. And I think they they knew that. So I think it's really important to taken as well and that as soon as I saw that I knew that, I was saying at the time that this wasn't the close run thing that it was being made out to be because the point when two thirds of the National Party, um, conference, come out in support of this, you know that there's something else pushing this forward and it's not, you know, it's not. It's not 85 [01:06:00] and stuff. Uh, in that sense, there was still I'm not dismissing entirely and stuff, but I think one of the lessons to learn from there is I think that even after it came out, even after the first vote, that landslide, that discourse of we don't want to speak to horses. This is the narrow thing. We're still being pushed out as a way of keeping us in mind. And I mean, one of the things I talk about, um in terms of this framework is the idea of making new mistakes is that in the the act of going out and doing things [01:06:30] or winning or trying new things and pushing forward, we make mistakes. And mistakes are a natural part of doing practical work. You know, that's a no. That's a normal part, and so it's really important that we step back from this and we learn from our mistakes and we learn, um, to win bigger and to win better next time around because, you know, I think it was actually really amazing. Um, within that that the the the radical queer voice piece that the queer representative which I thought was really cool that [01:07:00] was actually taken seriously nationally. That was one of the main you know you had, um Who was that family first? It was like, um uh, Louisa Wall first and create it. And I thought that was really good. And I think that it's we actually should be really proud of it in terms of how we we did manage to shape the agenda in that sense. And so I just put that out there. But I would say as well, like, even at the time, like, you know, I went two first National Party conference and it just discourse of [01:07:30] the SPF in the horses. And it's a close run thing. Yeah, I think it's to do. And but again, you know, we did. We did well out of that, and you know, we won. And so let's learn how to win. And if we're going to win as a community, we need to be driving the change as a community instead of waiting for the favour of a bill to be pulled out of a bucket. Actually, we should be way more proactive than that, because that is where the power is. That bill that got put out pulled out of the [01:08:00] bucket that, you know, was was a good one. You know, it it addressed an issue, but the wider issues of the community need to be lobbied to create the bill in the first place. Just on that, though, I think what's interesting, Because one of the first things I got involved in, like youngster was the civil unions, the civil unions Bill and I think a lot of the hard work was done then. And I remember at the time, you know, everyone was saying, you know, this is it for the life, for a life time. And so, on [01:08:30] the other hand, I don't think There, there, you know, even when it started, it was sort of this. Oh, man. This bill's gonna wonder how that's gonna go. A lot of people I remember talking to it wasn't on the agenda. You know that the bill actually pushed it forward, and so I think I agree with what you're saying. But I also think there was no sort of we wanna have. We wanna have, you know, same sex marriage or whatever. The bill itself pushed it forward, and I think I was quite surprised at five years on how smoothly that ran. So I I also think that in hindsight, [01:09:00] it's really obvious, and we could have pushed it and stuff. But I also think that it was quite it was something that took a lot of people quite surprised at how smoothly it went. Thank you. Um, I've got Kay. Is there any other people who would like to make any comments or ask any questions? Otherwise we'll wrap that up after kay. Yeah, and I just wanted to contribute another little bit from some aspects, but, um, another bouquet to the Queer Adventures, which seemed to be the only group that actually maintained [01:09:30] the diversity in its campaigning and, um, the activities across the way, because with legalised love, which I tried to interact with, they actually had no idea about queer and trans issues on a wider context, talking with their people total ignorance, and they never really got into to buy into that discussion with the labour and to some extent, green led marriage Equality campaign. There was so much fear of diversity that [01:10:00] even when um getting petition signing and engagement with people in the street, we were told to only approach people between a certain age range, you know, ability, range. You know, it's like, you know, we want people who will look pretty and heteronormative and get them to to the rally outside Parliament because there was an attempt to manage the, um the whole sort of image that was acceptable. And of course, you know, more people got involved than than that sort [01:10:30] of carefully photoshopped sort of grouping. Um, but it was still a yeah for the horses in a way that was almost sort of quite insulting to a lot of the diversity within our communities. And I'm glad that John raised this sort of whole issue about civil union campaign because that was really hard slog. But what that was won on was a lot of the emotional appeals that, um, older couples, long term couples, people of a whole [01:11:00] range of areas have been discriminated against and had, you know, had real sort of pain. That that was what got that one through. And this one year, we had a little bit of magical, but it was like it was more about This is time for a nice and safe thing to go through that one question, I'd like to ask what it is that the community can do to support the submissions in the upcoming, you know, presentations to [01:11:30] the select committee. The submissions on the bill closed way back in last year and then so all the presentations and everything have been done. Um, the committee is still considering the bill. The committee has, um, requested that NZ PC and the police and the groups in Auckland and the Auckland Council [01:12:00] talk with each other. And we have done so in front of a select committee and, um, at the Auckland Council buildings. Um, what comes out of that, though we still don't know. We've got no idea what the committee is going to decide on Yes, and things. But people talking to members of the select committee and, um, talking to them about good public health [01:12:30] issues. Um, saying that if push something underground, that's more likely to be more danger and various issues like that that, um and also talking about arrest on suspicion and how dangerous that can be. And so, yeah, what's the makeup of the select committee like political representation Party [01:13:00] representation? Um, so, yeah, it's mostly national with labour and green with one New Zealand first, which is, as the green members on the committee are quite good. It's Jen Logan, who has actually worked with NZ PC during the prostitution war. Um, prostitution reform. Um, [01:13:30] I want it. Yeah, but, um, a couple of things, um, one of the things as Maori and I watched this very carefully is that if you can actually keep people nameless and what happens in the media is that whenever we have a debate as Maori, it's those Maori always argue If [01:14:00] they would stop arguing, they'd get on so much better. And I had this a lot, and I had a group of students, and they brought this argument to me and I asked them over a three week period to watch television to listen to the news. But every time somebody came up, they would say, Oh, well, that was the Prime Minister. That was John Key or that was [01:14:30] such and such a person. It's not us, it's them, it's them. I said. What I want you to do now is to take away their names and just put how many times you see them arguing. Within three weeks they came back shock. They said, Do you realise that are 20 more times likely to argue when we don't know their names? Because we then take them as a group, not an individual. [01:15:00] So what's happening? I think I'm here. And here, too, is while people can say sex workers, we don't have to think about anything else. We can just say you're all wrong. I'm sorry, Callum. We know there's 15,000 of them in Auckland. That's it. You know, we it's in the paper. We know And it those arguments now, Bill, you are great. You'd sort of see it about. [01:15:30] And I heard some of you on the left saying this that you know that, um, it's not always women. I live with a leftist person and I've never won an argument with him yet. But with all what we're looking at now is I think the left those other projects that you were thinking about now need to start. We need [01:16:00] to start growing those because in the 1980 during during the eighties, when we were doing homosexual reform, once that that have gone through everyone sort of said, We've done it. There's no need to do anything else. It's all fantastic. It's great. Then when we did the, um uh, civil Union Bill, people wanted the marriage bill, and that was a really difficult because I wanted the marriage thing to go through [01:16:30] there. I really did. And I thought it through and it took me a long time. And there was somebody alongside me who was saying this. They get through running one if they get through. And I was like, Oh, shut up. I am. But again, a lot of the country wasn't ready for that. I knew it would come, but I would have to be patient enough for it to happen now. When we were looking at [01:17:00] the marriage bill, I know my own brothers and sisters said, But why do you need this reform? Haven't you got the civil union? What's the difference? What's what is that? And they were trying to sort of understand. And I was saying to them, many of us work When we get married, we just want to have the choice. And somebody said to me at work. Well, now you've got it through. Now you've got this sort of marriage equality. What difference is it gonna [01:17:30] make? And I said to these straight people, I can't object to any of you getting married to someone of the opposite sex, and they went what they said. But you couldn't do that. You can't do that anyway. And I said, Now just think of that. If we were the majority and we said You can't marry someone because they are the opposite sex, think it through, what would you do about [01:18:00] it? And they said we'd fight tooth and nail, and that's what we're going to continue to do. There are people you're gonna lose during those times, and sometimes the fighting isn't as nice as other people would like it to be. And that's just the way it is. It's, um you're gonna get people who are gonna be scared. And for those of you who have been in the protest movement and [01:18:30] people sort of say, Oh, you just like it, because it's great. I would be terrified in some of the marches I've been on absolutely terrified, but that wasn't enough to stop you going out and doing it. We need the left. We actually do need you to maybe kick us along a bit. But if you kick too hard, you will kick back. But I do wanna work [01:19:00] with you. I do wanna work with you. Um, but just remember that people will always talk about you in general terms. The left. It's faceless. You're all wrong. It's left. It's wrong. The right, it's faceless. You're all wrong. If I disagree with you, give me a name to them and you might be able to just prick the bubble then Callum. I really do hope that this, um, [01:19:30] you know that things happen right for you And I also do know that most people will believe what the paper says because they want to believe it, whether it's true or not. And that's just how it goes. And we just have to be careful of that and actually try and keep moving together. There are a lot of times when we've actually been able to get the facts out there now, but still, there's a lot of reaction to that. Um, when you have people [01:20:00] in South Auckland saying there were I got to my shop and there were 30 transvestites standing outside, there aren't that many transgender people in south working on the streets. Woman. All of the other people parade or something when I arrive. Two of the two of the people who were claiming that one of them who had claimed that it had increased 400% [01:20:30] and the other who was saying, Oh, there's a lot more out there than there was previously the Prostitution Law Review Committee when it was reviewing the bill that the act in 2007, 2008 ask these people Well, can you give us the names of them? They never did. And yet we could have supplied NZ. BC could have supplied the names of every sex worker that we see out on those streets because we [01:21:00] we contact them, we talk with them. We listen to what they're saying to us. And no, they're not all fried. And no, they don't drink. And no, they don't use diners or whatever all the time. Some of them will have a little bit of smoke. Some of them will have a little bit of drink, but they don't all do it all the time. And that's what the stories that these people are saying. Um, I'm I'm sorry. And you were just running about one time, so I thought that we just wrap up there. But people are welcome to stay [01:21:30] and have some discussions afterwards. Um, do the three of you have any, um, final comments that you want to put forward? You don't have to if you feel like you've said everything that you want to. Well, this is my last opportunity, So I'm gonna actually say goodbye. I'm going home to tomorrow to see my I haven't seen all week. I've been here in Wellington enjoying your fine weather. I'll I'll, I'll share with you the story of driving from Palmerston North because [01:22:00] the plane couldn't land and watching the windscreen wipers, the bus go out to the ocean somewhere. That was really interesting. Thank you for that. Got the heart pounding. Helped me with the excitement. It's been an amazing couple of days, um, hanging out with the queer Avengers and and and, um and definitely here. I've I've absolutely enjoyed the conversation, the interesting undertones and the really important discussions that I see ahead of everybody. And, um, I look forward to hearing [01:22:30] about where you all get to and, um, and learning from your experience. So, um, thank you. I have had an amazing time. I felt welcomed. And I have enjoyed meeting every single one of you, so thank you very much. I just want to say those who are speakers and those who have been running it that's fantastic. But there are two people here [01:23:00] who have been working flat out all day making sure that we can be heard that we're there. We have had the cooks at the back who are working all day to get it, and I would also like to acknowledge those people. But there is one special woman that I want to actually acknowledge today. And Sarah, that's you. Because without you, I probably wouldn't have come. And I really thank you for that, But don't you dare use those honey tonnes on me again. [01:23:30] Cool. Thank you, everyone. Um, that ends us for tonight. Um, there's a couple of events happening in town. If people are feeling up to it if they want to, I'm gonna go straight home to bed. Um, so, yeah, there's something happening at either, which is a clear desk. And there's something happening at brush as well. I think tonight. So if you are feeling like that, if you [01:24:00] just want to go home and sleep, and then get up early and do something If I practise with me in the morning, then you know that that's a priority. Um, we got to come around, wake everybody up sleeping. So, yeah, thank you so much for participating in, um, today in last night's, um, talk. So there there was some really, really good stuff that came out of it. Um, lots of important, important coral that took place today. And I really hope that, um, some people took away some really useful, useful, um, knowledge and and and [01:24:30] action. And tomorrow we're gonna be talking a little bit more about skills. So how we can put that stuff into place and what we can where we can go from there. So, um, big thank you to everyone for speaking today, and we do also want to thank them. Not here at the moment. But the cooks were just absolutely fantastic in India. And so and thank you again to the people, Um, who have been able to put the behind the scenes work in place. So, um, thank you.

IRN: 778
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_conference_session_10.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004275
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089569
TITLE: Session 10 - Beyond conference
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Anne Russell; Bill Logan
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Anne Russell; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bill Logan; David Foster Wallace; Friedrichshof Commune; Louisa Wall; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); The Queer Avengers (Wellington); Wellington; Wellington High School; activism; bullying; capitalism; child care; children; class; classism; coming out; counselling; depression; domestic violence; equality; free love; freedom; friends; heteronormativity; homosexual law reform; housing; invisibility; love; marriage; marriage equality; mental health; monogamy; oppression; politics; polyamory; poverty; privilege; rape; relationship ideology; relationships; religion; sex; socialism; stress; suicide; youth
DATE: 12 October 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington High School, 251-281 Taranaki Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the session: Beyond marriage.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi, everybody. My name is Anne. Um I like to say thanks to all the other speakers today. And thanks to the organisers, it's a good conference. Um, I just want to put a slight trigger warning on my work. It will have some. It's gonna touch on subjects like rape, domestic violence and suicide, like not in detail or anything, but I thought I'd give a heads up for it. Um, I wanted to start by talking a bit about the marriage equality campaign, since [00:00:30] this is the beyond Marriage forum. And it was quite a frustrating campaign for a lot of us to watch for various reasons. Because for many queer people, it felt like quite a strange and privileged priority within queer activism. Because if you you know, if you're getting kicked out of your home for being lesbian or or denied healthcare to transition, if you're a trans person, then worrying about whether you call your hypothetical partner wife seems a little beside the point. [00:01:00] Um, but what was also a bit frustrating about the marriage equality campaign was this blanket assumption within it that marriage was something that all of us wanted and that if queers got married. It would be best for society. And it's best for us to try to fit into that society. Or, as Cassie put it in a chant 2468 What? Let's all just assimilate. Um, so we were to understand that everyone was aiming [00:01:30] for a long-term committed, monogamous sexual partner with whom we'd eventually legalise our love. Um, this is what I like to call a Macklemore and discourse for. For those of you. For those of you who don't know, Malcolm Moore is a straight white rapper who did a song called Same Love About, um it was basically telling off the black hip hop community for being homophobic, and he made a lot of money off it. Um, it's kind of a dick, but this discourse [00:02:00] was coming from with inside the campaign as well. A lot of the campaign's politics held dominant culture up in a lot of different ways. It was quite white ableist, um, cis normative, uh, middle class, possibly sexist. I haven't really looked into that. Um, but you could find people from within all sorts of oppressed demographics that were very supportive of the campaign. Like in new Zealand. Louisa Wall. She's a Maori woman, and she was quite [00:02:30] far to the front of it. But the one place where ardent supporters of marriage equality seemed almost uniformly normative in in their politics was this total lack of critique of how we're doing our relationships, what sort of relationships we're fighting for within this legality and what relationships mean in society as a whole. So the campaign was, I said, was quite intent on only showing this one kind of love, [00:03:00] um, exclusive monogamy. But it's quite obviously not true. Not everyone is aiming for marriage, er, non monogamous people everywhere and people who are single or celibate by choice. Um, and not by choice as well. But, um, these kind of love are still treated as deviants. You know, if you're single, you've failed at some aspect of personhood, and you're just waiting to be paired with the right person with your other half. If you're a monogamous, you're a kind of faceless degenerate [00:03:30] slut. Basically, I, I, um I noticed this recently myself because I I put up on Facebook that I was in an open relationship and, um, people didn't say, you know Oh, great. just, you know, congratulations. The only comment I got was YOLO. Um, you know, and I was like, Yeah, you You only live once. You may as well have a nice relationship, but it was kind of this, you know, wacky experiment that's never going to work. And eventually I'm gonna default to my rightful place [00:04:00] of exclusive monogamy. Um, so you know, it has a guess that most of us in this room are quite used to seeing society through a political lens, how it's structured by things like, um, racism, classism, sexism, and so on. But when it comes to things like sex, love and romance, it's quite a blurry picture is presented where love is, love is love and you you can't critically analyse it. And indeed, to do so would spoil the mistake. But [00:04:30] it's this very discourse, among other things, that's preventing us from seeing that the way we do relationships is highly political, um, and represents what I call relationship ideology. So I I would suggest that we're not going to make much progress with the liberation of queer relationships or any relationships until we take relationship ideology out of the background, where it's kind of settled as just the way things are examine it and how it interacts with other parts [00:05:00] of culture and work out ways that it might need to change. So if we're gonna do that, I suppose the first question is, what is a relationship? And to my mind, the word itself is quite ideological because it's primarily used within, at least within Western culture, to refer to a sexual and emotional agreement between at least two people. And, of course, not every sexual bond you have is going to be a relationship. You know, you could have your buddy, your friend with benefits or [00:05:30] your whatever. But it's quite rare that you see an explicitly non sexual agreement defined as a capital R relationship. I mean, people may do this with their personal lives, like I have certain platonic friends who I have referred to as, you know, being you know, it. It feels like a relationship to me. But I wouldn't have a lot of luck if I said, you know, come to the love party of me and my bro and spend lots of money on us, or you should let me immigrate to um, Venezuela so [00:06:00] I can hang out with my friend and so we can flat together. It's not gonna happen. Um, so this forms half of relationship ideology for me. The idea that sexual relationships should be privileged over other kinds at, you know, at interpersonal social levels, but also at very material and institutional levels that we meant to structure our lives around these sexual emotional commitments. The way we live together, the way we share finances, Um, who [00:06:30] gets to visit our death beds and so forth. Um, an obvious reason for why sexual relationships would be privileged over others is that within heterosexual context, they're the kind that reproduce Children. So we I mean, we need sexual relationships to survive as a species. But, um, the idea that we should then raise these Children within a nuclear family kind of structure where you just have your man woman [00:07:00] partnership, or what have you or lately, if you even if you have your you know, two queer people, it's quite arbitrary, really. It's specific to particular societies at particular times. Um, I don't really I'm not able to speak to this in detail, but I'm to understand that, um, that in New Zealand. Exclusive monogamy is an import of colonisation. I don't think that it was a Maori construct at all. [00:07:30] Um, another example of doing relationships in a really radically different way to how we do it here is, um, the Moss ethnic group in the Himalayas. Um, the way their agreements with lovers work is that women I know that they're quite a matriarchal society. Um, in many ways, and their their relationships work that a man will go visit the woman's household. He will stay there for the night, and the only rule [00:08:00] is that he has to leave by sunrise. Now, this man may continue to visit the same woman every night for the rest of his life. But the commitment doesn't go beyond that night. And if any Children are produced from this, then the mother's family looks after them, and a child's uncles may be much more important than the father. You don't necessarily even know who the father is, because it doesn't matter. Um, so non monogamy is quite, you know, it's not, um, uncommon within S. I'm not sure how moss deal with queer [00:08:30] relationships. That would be quite an interesting area of research. But this does show that exclusive monogamy is by no means universal. And in the West we're quite keen in binding people into a long term committed, you know, a commitment of a relationship. It's, you know, I don't think many of us can imagine structuring all our relationships in a way where they only last a night. And this kind of commitment means there's not much room within dominant [00:09:00] relationship culture for a a wax of Wayne and love and and sex drive and so forth. And so, if your partner wants to have sex with someone else or or just not spend time with you for a while, then you have to break up with them. You know, it has to be a permanent rupture, or we have to otherwise kind of threaten them materially, like I'll kick you out of my house, maybe just in order to keep them nearby, because this is your one allotted supply of love and you have to hold on to it. Otherwise, you are going to be alone forever. Um, so this construct [00:09:30] of of relationship kind of becomes a third party within people's agreements that they have to be loyal to and in marriage. This is an explicit signed contract, and you'll do things to save the marriage or save the relationship rather than necessarily just to You know what will make you guys feel good at the time. These commitments, of course, aren't always harmful, but it does end up kind of making the idea of consent [00:10:00] and you know it. It's consent as mediated by something else. Um, and this forms the other half of relationship ideology to me is the idea that if you're sleeping with someone or if you're in a relationship with them, then you have a right and a duty to control their behaviour. And in extreme circumstances, this is why that until recently, if you were married to someone, you couldn't charge them with rape because it couldn't happen. You had consented to every sexual act because you signed this contract [00:10:30] to basically, This is why the marriage equality campaigns, you know, focus. That marriage was just about love. Kind of mad maddened me. I remember seeing someone saying legalise gay marriage everywhere in the world, and I was like, Oh, including the 38 countries where marital rape is still legal, you know, how do you like your same love now? Macklemore E. Even besides, right, there's a lot of quite horrific violence done in in the name of love. Like domestic violence between partners is [00:11:00] often referred to as a lover's tiff. It's kind of inevitable, really. Um, and if you know, if some if someone murders their partner, it's It's a crime of passion rather than just a crime. Um, so this is tied up with things like patriarchy and capitalism. But the fact that, um, such domestic violence happens in similar ways within queer relationships as well shows that it's kind of in a category of itself. Um, [00:11:30] and this is the fact that it's not uncommon when relationships break up for people to kill themselves or to want to kill themselves. And these also are treated as sort of just, you know, it's just part of relationship culture, like Romeo and Juliet. Their story is not treated as tragedy because relationship addiction is really disturbing, but because just love hurts. And, oh, wasn't it sad that their relationship didn't work out? Um, [00:12:00] and we are reinforcing this kind of thing when we have a culture that tells people that if they're single, they are alone. If they're single, they've failed somehow. Um, there's also state violence that gets involved with the construction of relationships because in places like Indonesia, sex, sex, external to marriage is punishable by a jail sentence. So this is enforced. This violence within relationships is enforced at lots of levels of society, and we [00:12:30] have. So basically, we have this aspect of control and domination built into the into the ways that we do relationships. And in recent times, one of the solutions to this problem being positive is is polyamory. You know, this movement of having many lovers, Um, but my problem with this sort of framing of relationship politics is that it treats it. You end up treating stuff as though polyamory [00:13:00] is good and monogamy is bad. Um, and polyamory is kind of inherently, you know, having many lovers is inherently ethical and great and interesting, and but there's only one kind of monogamy, and it's buttoned down and boring and oppressive. Um, but you can, of course, have situations where polyamory is hugely unethical and nonconsensual and and does all the bad things that monogamy can do. Um We don't often see this at a [00:13:30] societal level, but there was in, um, in Germany in the 19 seventies, there was a thing called the Friedrich So commune, uh, which was run by a guy called Otto Mu. And the rules were that you had to be completely pros promiscuous. You had to have basically, everyone in the commune had to have sex with each other. And predictably enough, this white male kind of took over things and eventually started. Um, you know, deflowering every new girl that came to the commune [00:14:00] and he was jailed for child sex offences later on. So that's an example of polyamory gone bad. Now a lot of people would say, but those aren't polyamory because polyamory is nice, but there's two. I think it's too difficult to kind of work out. What's good polyamory and what's bad polyamory to claim it as an overall movement. And of course you do. Actually, you know, the problem is, you can have really healthy, consensual, [00:14:30] monogamous relationships, and they're fine. You know, maybe some people just don't want to have more than one love or they don't have time, so we need a framework of understanding that has room for both of them. And I think that the problem with the society that we've built on exclusive monogamy is the exclusivity part. You know, the idea that you can say to your partner No, you you are not allowed to have sexy feelings about someone else or you're not allowed to make out with them. What have you [00:15:00] So what we need to dismantle within this is kind of in in this construct is twofold. So we've got to get rid of to some degree or at least look at the idea that sexual relationships follow completely different ethical rules to other ones. And the second that these relationships involve this kind of power and control that I actually prefer the term free love. It's, um [00:15:30] I mean, who you know, freedom and love. Who doesn't like these things? Really? Um, you can kind of treat it like a verb, as though free, you know, freeing love. It's a It's a process that you constantly update and, you know, trying to involve it with ethics and consent and so forth. Um, so that would mean that rather than having you're either in an open relationship where you fuck everybody or you're in a closed one Where you you know, you're not even allowed to [00:16:00] look at other people. You can put stuff on a spectrum. So, you know, I have quite a few people say to me, Oh, I couldn't do an open relationship But what does that mean? Like, my relationship is open in lots of ways, but it's not open to everything. Um, and I would assume that other people's relationships aren't close to everything, either. You know, Like I said, there's not one monogamy or one polyamory. So it means you could take stuff in baby steps like you might be cool with your partner, um, sleeping with someone else, or you might be [00:16:30] only cool with them making out. Or you might at this point just want to talk about it. Um, and once you start trying to free love within your intimate relationships, you have to start doing it elsewhere as well. So it's not much good us faffing around talking about, um, jealousy within relationships when people can't pay their rent or when they're stuck in a war zone, there are more pressing problems than working out which of you gets to, you know, see the other partner on a Friday or what have you? [00:17:00] Um yeah. So you've got to remove power and control from everywhere, and it bothers me that a lot of polyamorous community don't seem to understand how to do this. A A lot of people who identify as polyamorous are privileged gits. I remember, um, meeting this. I remember meeting this kind of cisgender white Polly man who had seven relationships because he didn't have a job and didn't like, didn't need to work. And he was saying, It's all about love And I said, [00:17:30] Well, yeah, I agree on principle. I think it's more complicated than that because it's quite hard to love when you're being oppressed. And he was like, Yeah, but there aren't really any oppressive systems in New Zealand. And then I kind of laughed in his face. And later that night, he greeted me by slapping on the arse. And I was like, Oh, well, the thing is, I think there's quite a danger. If we do structure our movement around polyamory that it's going to get the debate is going to get diverted into things like, um legalising polygamy, which is specifically [00:18:00] polyamorous marriage. And I can guarantee that it's going to be the same boring classes stuff that the marriage equality campaign was. And it just, you know, polyamory will just become another movement that Oreos can market to, um, warriors, Oreos, You know, the craft Oreo thing for gay marriage, or it just be like lots of Oreos. And they're all good or something. Warriors like via in the Mario series. Oh, OK. I don't know. Maybe they want [00:18:30] to expand and market it to that, Um, because there are ways that people who specifically practise polyamory are oppressed. Um, like, if you don't get visitation rights at the hospital, there is a problem. Um, and there was one woman in the US who lost custody of her Children because she was polyamorous. But overall, they're not really an oppressed minority. There isn't massive violence being done against poly identified people. Um, and I think [00:19:00] a lot of polyamory community, they're quite aware of the violence that can take place within relationships in terms of things like jealousy and and control. But they're not aware really of the violence that they can do themselves within being racist or being quob or ableist and so forth. So there's, you know, there's lots of different types of freedom and love that we need to enable for everybody, not just within our relationships. Um, [00:19:30] yeah, I suppose that's basically me. I just want to say there's no, you know, we're not gonna have queer relation. We're not gonna have queer liberation without relationship liberation. And we can't have relationship liberation without queer liberation. So we've got to find a way to synthesise all those together. It was really interesting. [00:20:00] Um, yeah, a lot of that sort of informs what I had to say, but I want to take it at a different angle. I like most of us. I'm more interested in love than marriage. But I want to consider the connections and antagonisms between love and marriage. Today. I don't want to attempt a precise definition of love here because, uh, well, I'm not meaning merely deep caring or a close friendship or fully of affection or companionship. [00:20:30] Those things are necessary and important and a best source of personal security. Very often. But what I wanted to talk about is passionate sexual love and love in this sense and marriage. Both have long histories in Western culture and beyond, going back thousands of years, but they are almost entirely separate. Histories. Love and marriage have, quite simply, had nothing to do with each other. Uh, even the fiction [00:21:00] that love and marriage should somehow be combined is rather recent and unevenly applied. Marriage has always been about status and property, even in the last 200 years, when marriage is attempted to appropriate love for its own purposes. It's a debased, deformed kind of love. That marriage is sought to incorporate a love where the perfect match involves celebrity and power and money, and where your grandmother tells you it's as easy [00:21:30] to fall in love with a rich woman as with a poor one. The ideal marriage requires you to love a millionaire, a film star or preferably a prince. Uh, all of whom are probably pretty unlovable. Hm. Uh, the, um, pet shop boys are not exactly right. That love is a bourgeois construct. Uh, it'd be more true to say that love is a feudal construct because [00:22:00] the modern ideology of love is primarily shaped by the ideals of nightly chivalry in the middle ages. Uh, and of course, love under chivalry was always outside marriage and about either unfulfilled yearning or unadulterated adultery. Marriage was about it. Power and property and love was counterpose to it. Uh, now, if Love penetrated the ruling classes during the age of chivalry, [00:22:30] it did have a a prehistory, which was largely unwritten. But before chivalry, love was confined to the lower orders. Uh, citizens in Athens and Rome didn't love their wives, though They may have been infatuated with a slave girl or a boyfriend. Uh, but servants and shepherd boys whose lives were mostly unrecorded because they didn't matter, uh, were able to love each other and love [00:23:00] intensely and the records sparse. But there are traces inevitably left in in song and verse. Now, we live in a cynical age, and intelligent people are not supposed to believe in love. Uh, however, there are hints and traces AAA, and there's an anthropological studies of prec class societies. And actually, we can see the patches or incidents or explosions of love have formed in [00:23:30] the most different kinds of social arrangements that our species has tried out. We can see that love is sometimes capable of great heroism, uh, against the predominating institutions of society. And we can see that love has been most widespread where power and status and property are weakest. Indeed, I want to argue here that love can appear in many environments, has extraordinary potential for disruption. But if love is to transcend [00:24:00] the exceptional and the episodic, if there's to be a generalised freedom to love, then class society has got to be dismantled. Now, of course, the spontaneity and diversity of forms of love, it's passion and sheer joy don't sit easily beside the authority and hierarchy necessary to run a class society. Uh, so marriage has become a tool for the organisation of love. [00:24:30] Love is a danger, and marriage is put into service for its moderation and debasement and to render it uniform. So heterosexual marriage is the standard against which all other relationships are measured. Parental expectations, housing policy, architecture, family law, popular music. All these things pushed toward a marriage like form. Uh, and to the extent that a relationship is in the nature of marriage uh uh, heterosexual marriage [00:25:00] only to that extent is it judge successful. So we have the modern nuclear family uh, under capitalism as an instrument for the mass organisation of domestic tasks and reproduction and for the discipline training of the workforce. The ideal where in love and marriage are combined has a dual function. Uh, it's meant to bureaucratize and routinize love and to render it socially harmless. [00:25:30] And it's meant to spice up marriage to make it acceptable. Now, that's not to say that, um, there is no real love in the world today. I think many of us get a taste of genuine love, and some get a full serving. But the commercial mass media, love industry and the attempts to tie love to the institution of marriage have profoundly miss it. The pursuit of love is combined with the pursuit of money, power and fame. Uh, [00:26:00] A. And the experience of love is twisted by crass commercialism, showy weddings and legal and social controls, which define marriage. No is is to say that marriage at an individual level is necessarily a betrayal of love. Uh, each of us has got to to make their way as best they can in a in a broken world, and marriage helps many of us negotiate that path. But as a cultural institution, [00:26:30] marriage is fundamentally conservative. So that's the context, I think, in which we came to the struggle for same sex marriage rights. And it's AAA situation, which has emerged with remarkable historical speed on a global basis. Very recently, when I was a young man fighting for homosexual law reform in 1985 86 gay marriage was not something [00:27:00] that we thought of as a possibility to even be considered. Uh, so in the context of the way marriage is actually carried out and its social role and its debasement of love, it's really not surprising that radical queers looked on this movement for, uh, marriage rights with great suspicion. Why would we want to buy into the process whereby the creative, disruptive, [00:27:30] passionate power of love was tamed to fit the conservative straitjacket of marriage? But marriage is not going to be transcended by maintaining the limitations and constraints on it by but by opening it up by freeing it at the compulsions which surround it compulsions which are ideological and legal and material. So most of us took a deep breath and supported [00:28:00] marriage reform. We supported quite. It's quite simply because legal prohibition is not an instrument of liberation. Many of us don't want to join the army, don't want to join the police force or to become truck drivers or to adopt Children. But we want the same rights to do those things as anyone else. The point about the fight for the right to get married was not that we were advocating. All queer people should actually get married. That should we [00:28:30] should be allowed to get married now. There were some attractions in the argument that we want the right to be different and not merely to be the same as the dominant forces in society. Uh, but the truth is the fight against oppression, whether it's sexual or religious or national or economic oppression is always a fight for equal rights. The right to be the same separate but equal is not equal. Where Muslims and atheists [00:29:00] do not have the same rights as Christians, they are pushed to make their beliefs about religion invisible. Where queers do not have the same rights as straight, they are pushed to make their queerness invisible. It's only through winning the right to be the same that we really have the right to be different. So most of us supported the campaign for equal marriage rights. But it was hardly an earth shattering episode. And [00:29:30] although our little victory in that campaign was quite satisfying, mostly because I suppose we don't get the experience of many victories, uh, it wasn't exactly a turning point in history. The campaign was an occasion from for some highly reversible mass consciousness raising, and possibly it laid the groundwork for the more important struggle to protect queer kids from bullying in high schools. But the [00:30:00] objective and concrete achievement of this campaign was actually just a tiny logical extension of bourgeois democratic rights, which will have very little impact on our real lives. And in the end, it simply wasn't a big deal when the celebrations died down. Queer and Trans people still faced discrimination and oppression in families and schools and workplaces. As we always knew, we would, uh, [00:30:30] in my counselling practise, I see heteronormative pushing people to the brink of death. I see very high levels of stress and addiction among queers. I see the independent youth benefit denied to adolescents who have nothing, no family, no accommodation, no job there are in fact extraordinary levels of unemployment among among young queers. Right now, I see health professionals refusing [00:31:00] to take seriously the problem of queer and trans suicidality gay boys bullied at school. Trans teenagers kicked out of their homes. Sometimes it feels like we're in a battleground and in the context of the trauma that surrounds us, the lesser but still urgent and and and also the the other, uh, practical needs. In that context, our imagining [00:31:30] a utopia of polymorphous perversity seems a bit indulgent. We might want a world where the privileges of monogamy are dismantled, where there is a culture celebrating diversity and a universal validation of relationships of many different shapes. But right now we have to concern ourselves with the fact that many all queer and trans [00:32:00] kids grow up in fear of bullying at school, and a significant number want to kill themselves because they've been kicked out of home with no resources. What I'm wanting to argue is that we shouldn't separate, but rather we should link the struggle for immediate needs and the struggle for a more profound liberation. Indeed, it's only in the struggle to meet the [00:32:30] immediate needs that we can lay a path to profound change and a fundamentally better society. Now I want to explain that in a concrete way and use the example of housing. It's clear that an abundance and variety of subsidised housing would be an enormous step in meeting immediate needs. It would help counter the effects [00:33:00] of poverty. It would take a lot of the sting out of family transphobia and homophobia. Even if modest housing were immediately accessible, it would take much of the stress and conflict out of adolescent coming out crises. There are depressions which would lift and suicides that wouldn't happen. In fact, it wouldn't just be queer and trans adolescents who need access to accommodation separate from their parents. [00:33:30] I think most families with adolescents at certain points need more housing options and as well as addressing immediate needs. And this is the point of adolescence. Good accommodation options would also address the needs of married people when their marriages were in trouble or merely need a little space where it's a question of domestic violence, frustration about the relations coming to stay [00:34:00] or a new sexual configuration disturbing the equilibrium of a household access to housing would remove one of the most important constraints, which too often turns a marriage into a prison in Practise one of the compulsions, which enforces a continuing marriage when there are Children, which make it difficult to escape when it's past its use, by [00:34:30] date is the expense of setting up accommodation, which allows genuine co parenting. People are forced to stay in the marital home in order to keep connected to their Children. Uh, or alternatively, they've got to simply leave the marriage and the family and thereby leave most of the parenting to one of the former partners, usually the mother. Decent accommodation options for families which are coming apart would remove one of the compulsions [00:35:00] which shape marriage today. So while it's true that family law and fairy tales and Hollywood are important forces in shaping and maintaining the institution of marriage, actually it's often too often simply the absence of an alternative place to live, uh, or even to stay temporally that keeps a marriage going or determines its shape. [00:35:30] Uh, along with housing, you could use similar arguments about decent child care, which care which, um, we should be fighting for, too. It would move remove another set of compulsions which keep in place. Uh, the marriage system and gender inequality. Now a programme to remove those largely economic compulsions and see what people would make of their lives without them seems a far more sensible way of approaching [00:36:00] the world of the future than to try to imagine in advance how it will look, because that's something we simply cannot know. We can't know the future of marriage, but we can fight against the constraints on current marriages and and current relationships. If there were true material security, the compulsions which today hold marriage and the current family system together, those [00:36:30] constraints would be removed with material security can come enormous sexual freedom and diversity of our domestic relationships. Now we are told that the system simply cannot pay for decent housing or child care. And I guess the people who say that actually know the system, and I guess they're right. The system can't pay for decent housing and child care. So much the worse for the system. We got to throw it away. [00:37:00] And so the struggle for domestic freedom is indivisible. From the struggle for socialism, the running costs of capitalism are simply too high. There's an awful lot of corruption and free loading involved in capitalism, an awful lot of paperwork, all of which eats up human life without getting anything back. There's the human effort wasted wasted on financial shenanigans. This whole [00:37:30] industries which add very little to the sum total of human happiness, banking, insurance, advertising capitalism is simply profoundly wasteful. But nevertheless, even with this waste, the resources exist. There's a study on the basis of data for the year 2000. United Nations World Institute for the Development of Economic Research reports that the three richest individuals in the in the world [00:38:00] possess more financial assets than the lowest 48 nations combined. The richest 1% in the world own 40% of the global assets. So the programme for a world beyond marriage must be a programme which addresses the obscene inefficiency and inequality of the [00:38:30] capitalist system. Only a programme of socialism can create the conditions for transcending marriage. And how will we live under socialism? I don't know, but we can't know what will replace marriage and current family arrangements, but we can suspect that where issues of material security are behind us people's personal preferences will trump any considerations of family [00:39:00] pressure or popular prejudice. We can expect that our domestic arrangements will be extremely diverse. Ok, um I have Yeah, a little bit to say. I both really enjoyed your best talks. Um, one thing I would his the first comment, uh, would be to agree with the immediate need, [00:39:30] um, and the overall, uh, liberation things as being our main kind of focus for the future of that combined thing. Um, absolutely. There's a lot of other social and cultural considerations that we want, but they are not as pressing. Um, I, I think so. I really wanted to to replace that, um, another thing I wanted to say, I think was, um that while monogamy and polyamory, [00:40:00] for example, because those were the two that were brought up quite strongly. And while there are two forms of relationship or ways of being, I think also making really, really clear that there's a lot of ways of existing under those two labels, uh, particularly, um, the understanding and the definitions provided of those two were contrary to a lot of to a lot of definitions that I that I've heard and also quite contradictory. Um, I think on that note, just on [00:40:30] an in particular, um, I think it's really problematic and potentially something that I found quite full on, um, to say that poly armoury as a whole was not an oppressed minority. Um, particularly because while a group is may not be violently, uh, physically, violently acted against, um, exclusion and invisibility, Uh, also forms of violence and structural violence. Um, so I think that and [00:41:00] poly people, um, that can include that should not necessarily. I do. I totally agree that that should not be where queer should go and where the queer struggle should go. In some ways, that's even separate. There's straight people who are identified that way. There's a million different variations on that, Um, and it's definitely not a utopia or any ideal like that. And I think that's quite acknowledged. Um, in at least, um, many of the, uh, current kind of ideas [00:41:30] in in that now, um, but I would say that, um, yeah, just that invisibility thing is really, really important. And also the fact that, um, people operating outside or inside monogamy but in outside the conventional definitions also experience their lives as, uh, a wide range of oppressions, biases and privileges. Um, for example, they could, uh, as myself, um, identify as a queer white cisgender woman. Um, so there's a lot of privilege [00:42:00] and also, uh, oppression and bias in that sentence. And that's the same with polyamory. Like you could say all of, like, just phrasing it and that some are idiots. Some people are idiots. It's not really a useful kind of way way to deal with that. And it's also kind of, uh, in some ways generalises What? What it is, um, and also, yeah, just child like legal rights are also quite, um, [00:42:30] and just one final thing, and then I will stop. I promise. Um, I just Yeah, I just I think that because people can be oppressed in many different ways and by many different aspects of their identity, um, which feed into each other, Um, that it's unhelpful to discount them. And yeah, it's just a common. Yeah. And, um, yeah, cultural invisible invisibility [00:43:00] of polyamory. It sucks, and it's quite damaging. And I think actually, yeah, the invisibility of polyamory as an option is a real problem because people don't know. They're just like if I'm attracted to someone else while I'm with a partner, then I'm wrong, you know, like because monogamy is the only way. I suppose what I meant by privilege in that sense was that a lot of poly I people, I don't know that they can be quite privileged [00:43:30] because it's a under capitalism. It's quite difficult to find even one person to form a nice relationship, let alone many. You need a lot of things like time, and it's difficult to structure around that to structure that around things like child care and so forth. Can I just say one thing? Just get that? Um, it's just because, like Poly Army and things that exist, that could be labelled as Poly Army, so different from monogamy has existed for time [00:44:00] periods and for many different, um, economic, social and cultural ways. So and talking about it is it's specifically framed under capitalism. Yeah, absolutely. Maybe the parents is a economic asset, but then also talking about it to existing in a lot of minority populations and a lot of other places and time periods and maybe just yeah, and I and I think it is important that that is a as well. Is that like because I think a lot of people like when a lot [00:44:30] of people come to polyamory, newly or you know sometimes can be for a while, and it's as though it's this magical thing they've just invented. Whereas it's it has been across all cultures all times. And I think there's a lot of cultural, you know, this invisibility of other cultures within a polyamory movement. Because, I mean, I think it's a thing of like when we, you know, when other cultures are colonised. We colonise their romantic lives as well, and I think that's [00:45:00] something often not taken into account within certain politics. Think one thing that possibly hasn't been discussed is the multiple meanings of polymer. I think that polyamory is identity is basically people defining themselves in opposition to mainstream monogamous relationship styles. Um, and I think that that's quite different from what is often meant by people you know, acting polyamorous, which just literally means [00:45:30] having lots of relationships at once. So it's what I interpreted Anne's meaning, which perhaps is not what she meant, but when when polyamorous people aren't impressed directly. It's because there there is the diff. It depends what you mean by being polyamorous. So if you if you are in long term committed relationships, yes, you will get marginalised. If you just happen to be one person who has multiple relationships at once, that's it's such a diverse [00:46:00] group of people that you perhaps can't group them together into a think absolutely. And I think that's just one thing I just wanted to put out there that polyamory like is not only a political kind of thing and people who are being then, as you say, um, it also means it's like an umbra term anyway. Like, um, it means many, many different things to people and that that's all I wanted to say. I do think there probably is a lot of value in I. I quite like the word free love. [00:46:30] And this is something we've talked about but as having that as a as a political identity, that implies you have put sort of this this societal criticism on how you approach relationships and you're not necessarily thinking that everything has to be as open as possible. But, yeah, I think, I think because has got too many meanings. Possibly a new word is needed at some level. The same. Yeah. Yeah, I did it. I was thinking about [00:47:00] it. But, like, um, I do polyamory sometimes. You know, at the moment I'm in an open relationship and, you know, just just one. And, you know, sometimes I'll see other people, Um, and like, maybe if I were in a triangle or what have you, then I might I might identify as polyamorous. But it's not for me. It's not a permanent identity. It's It's something that I do sometimes, I mean, [00:47:30] yeah, I don't know. It's perhaps worth noting in that vein as well that the idea of, um, queer sexualities as identities of a person is quite a recent phenomenon. Like the word homosexual was only invented in 18 69 and heterosexual while after bisexual somewhere along the line. Um, so kind of prior to that you did you know, you might perform homosexual acts or heterosexual acts, but didn't say anything about who [00:48:00] you were as a whole. Um no love Scott. Comment I. I mean, II. I wonder if if, um, sexuality will be important in people's identity. at all in the future. Sex might be, but, um, fucking life. Yeah. [00:48:30] I mean, I suppose there's, um you know, people often kind of want to say like, Oh, I don't identify as feminists because I don't like labels or I. I don't You know, I don't identify. Quit because I don't like labels. And for the moment, I think we actually, you know, because of how society works. We often need those labels because to differentiate different experiences, um, and so forth or to demonstrate what you believe. But, you know, I think ultimately we might. We might want a society that didn't have those kind of labels. So [00:49:00] And someone said to me that like, Why do you need to call it free love? Why does not you know why? Name it at all, and it's like, Well, we'll have to call it free love because we don't have a society that values free love at the moment. And we may never like I. I don't know if we're ever gonna reach this sort of magical utopia where everyone, um, you know, gets to fuck whoever they want. And no one bats an eyelid. Um, and especially I find it discouraging. I don't think we're going to get there, because I think climate change is gonna probably wipe all of us out, which was [00:49:30] really depressing. I'm like, Oh, what did I mean? I knew I wasn't gonna live to see the I knew I wasn't going to live to see the movement fulfilled, but I hoped it might happen in the future. And fucking apocalypses. I don't know. Sorry. That was kind of a sad point entirely. Oh, I mean, like, stuff like climate change is affected by this sort of stuff as well. Like, if you're having everyone live in their separate nuclear family houses and buying 20 vacuum cleaners rather than one, you are going to do damage to the planet. So the [00:50:00] socialisation of housework is actually quite an important part of that, isn't it that, um, by by in a system society where, um, where people do work collectively? Um, they have jobs. They have jobs, but in fact, their jobs are not like today of 60 80 hours a week. Um, they're not jobs that, um some people [00:50:30] earn Megabucks and other people earn peanuts. Um, when you have that sort of a society, then the possibilities of relationships, how it's or how you organise the relationships. What happens with Children, the domestic chores and things like that are are are done in order to enhance our lives. Whereas today they are to control our [00:51:00] lives. Right. So, um, you know, I agree with With what? With what? Bill was actually arguing that you know that we need that, you know, talking about freedom and under this and this sort of a way society is organised is sort of weird, because we're not really free to do very much at all. And when you've got no money, you've got very little freedom at all. [00:51:30] And we need to create a society where people have real choices. Not for the privileged few who happen to be, um, financially able to do it, or the strength of character to breach the norms of society. But real choice. That's what we have to be fighting for and what all those real choices will be sexually. Um, [00:52:00] if we have a society that's built on collaboration, not on profit, we don't know. We can't predict because it's it's well, it's open ended. Yeah. Um, yes, I was I was thinking about Oh, I talked to this woman. I kind of believed in free love. And And she she was like, what? Because she was thinking of the kind of Woodstock free love, which is a sort [00:52:30] of it's a sort of freedom of like, I can fuck whoever I want and you can't say anything. Um, which, you know, obviously ended up privileging, um, primarily men over people. So that sort of free love kind of sucks for a lot of people. And so I think we've got to not have this definition of freedom as a sort of, um, just a licence to do whatever you want, because No-one can, you know, not everybody can do that. You can have some people do it. You can't have everyone doing it at once because, [00:53:00] you know, one person's freedom ends up being another person's prison. And the definition of freedom I really like comes from David Foster Wallace, who was talking about the kind of freedom that education gives you, and it's it's the kind of freedom so that when you're waiting in line at a supermarket, you don't have to think that, you know, this person in front of you is just there to annoy you. Um and you know, isn't it terrible that I'm in a supermarket line? And that's all you can think about? When when you're educated, you can take [00:53:30] yourself out of the immediate context you're in, so you can you can. Sorry, I'm paraphrasing his speech really badly, But, um, you can remove yourself mentally from that sort of state and you it's a freedom to empathise with other people and, you know, so when they do something to you, it's not specifically to hurt you. It's about, you know, so you can try and imagine their sort of perspective. And he said, that kind of freedom involves, um, discipline and effort and the ability to sacrifice [00:54:00] for other people without it being bad for you. And you can do you can do that kind of sacrifice because you care about them. And I think that's a real freedom, and it's a sort of freedom that we should be striving for within politics. I mean about this political movement. I don't know how long, but do we end up like that? OK, can I just make one point? Um I don't know if it's been raised that much yet, but how religions work, I think, will always be [00:54:30] subject to a culture and an ideology like even in in radically, you know, communal communal societies from all over the place that they they're always going to be functioning differently. So I think well, certainly the removal of capitalism will will allow a huge amount of liberation. I think it's a bit naive to say that relationships will suddenly start working without an ideology which will have taught people how to do things. So I think I think that while you're talking about free love you [00:55:00] as well as as well as condemning capitalism and and marriage, you have to deliberately prop with something else. And and if this is the removal from inherent exclusivity, or at least exclusivity being the norm of a relationship, I think it's it's very important to have this this positive ideological part of of what you're you're talking about. Nothing, Nothing. II. I think you're right. But I think that you exaggerate this in that [00:55:30] exclusivity is much, um, it is privileged in all sorts of ways, by all sorts of material things which are going on around like the the housing question. Where the fuck are you gonna do it? Um, I I is an important thing which helps build exclusivity. Uh, and, um, you know that there's all sorts of actual material things [00:56:00] which make the exclusivity work. Now, I'm not saying that the ideology of exclusivity plays no role in this. I am saying that sexual desire is su is strong enough to overcome the ideology of exclusivity in the context of the disappearance of the material props to that ideology. [00:56:30] One of the things that, um, that I think get mixed up in so called democracy is that if I look at all the demo, um, democratic countries as such, they are all oligarchies, but their governments and those who control them, if we ever become educated enough [00:57:00] as a people to actually realise this because what they keep, um, then things will happen. But while they can keep feeding us magazines on Starlight starlets and these people have this and you can't and you get this whole It's like Valium to so many people. I. I see people at work they go through. Oh, wouldn't it be wonderful this is capitalism because we have this and I said, Yeah, but [00:57:30] you don't have any of it. You don't have any of them. But it's that dream of the life happily ever after and that type of thing. Now the thing about with that with you talking about Poly An in most countries where it was done and in it was done for very good reasons, mainly mainly because of the way population was actually, um, how how it was actually distributed. [00:58:00] And in those countries where I've been to where that's practised as they are not particularly wealthy, those people and what we've done in the West again is taking something that has worked politically for a people and said we'd like to try that. But we don't always have the constructs to make it. So, um, in a place where polygamy polyandry is, P is practised. If you have a look at the social [00:58:30] content of those places, it is almost necessary for that to happen. And I know with polyandry uh, polyandry. If the land was is was that poor, then it was better to have more men or one woman to marry a a group of men to actually get that land to work. So it wasn't It was often done or not. [00:59:00] I should say it is done. It is done because of survival and polygamy. Um, in most cases of my study of it and with people, I know who When I've lived in countries where that is done, it was done because the country still gets. The thing is that it is dangerous for women to go out. [00:59:30] Hopefully that will change. And I know in Saudi Arabia now, they, um they're just passing a law that women and why it may not seem great to us can actually practise law in the courts there for the first time ever, because they're trying to actually slowly change it. I think you said something about the Maori, and in many cases I think you're right. But among [01:00:00] the aristocrats, No, you're my I come from, um my grandparents. They were arranged marriage. My mother's first marriage was an arranged marriage. It worked out well when you come from a little village where there's only 25 or 30 people, when you come to the city and you realise there are thousands of people and you have a choice. But I remember with my mother that choice was almost too much coming [01:00:30] from one society where you've been brought up, Um, where she knew as as a youngster she was going to be married at a certain age and then coming into the city and saying is, Hey, it's different. It's different here. My grandparents on my Maori side never really got over that, that there was this choice. But what they couldn't get over was that people could then divorce if [01:01:00] it didn't like, because my grandparents on my mother's side were married for political reasons. Now I'm not saying it was right, but I'm just saying, Is that political reasons that happened for us again? It was about land and what bills talked about, too, about actually, what works socially, and what worked socially for my mum and for my grandparents was it was to actually make sure that there was enough land. There were enough gardens [01:01:30] for things to work so there would be enough food for the offspring. So I'm just saying is when we throw things around and say, Oh, this or this or that without looking at where it actually comes from and why it is in a society we actually do another form of colonisation, of saying It's, Oh, we'll try this But without [01:02:00] the political constraints that actually have happened in those societies, I'm not saying it shouldn't happen or it will happen or it won't. I'm just saying That's the way it is. But I do repeat, we live in an oligarchy and it is no different now than it was at the beginning of the 20th century or the late 19th century, with the czars and the royal families and the billionaires owned most of the places. Today [01:02:30] there are more people in service as butlers and all those other things and households around the world than there was in Edwardian England, which is just a mind blower for me. But within the marriage and those things 01 other thing is, yeah, I. I don't want the sexual thing to be a a thing that we're still having to fight. I suppose we will. But I also know that as soon as we get that as equal and we'll find, [01:03:00] society will find something else to suppress. It always does, and people say, Oh, I'm not racist or anything. But the arguments about suppressing us and our sexuality are the same arguments that were used with about with people with mixed marriage. The same argument that was used with people, um, who were thought themselves better than others. The arguments haven't changed. Just where they've actually pointed the bullets [01:03:30] are Has I love life. Thank you. It was pretty helpful. I think I might think one takes to reply. Um, is that when you were talking about poly or or polygamous societies requiring it, [01:04:00] um, requiring it because that's that's how the land is working. That was that was what they do to survive. I think the flip side of that which you touched upon, but perhaps, I don't know, I felt like I was making connections in my life. Maybe I wasn't was Is that in in our society right now, we very, very, very much do need, um do need monogamy because this is sort of nuclear families, which which are easier to control and train people, as as Bill was saying, and I think that that was largely true under [01:04:30] basically, basically, as long as capitalism has been a thing and and in feudalism in in any of the tiers of society that owned anything. So I think I think very much the flip side is that in all of these rather nasty forms of government, or you know these ones which need a lot of improvement, they've relied on monogamy. So? So to say that polyamory is the other is only from a matter of perspective. Um, yeah, I don't know if that would meant anything, [01:05:00] but I think it becomes a complicated thing. Which do we do first? Because then it's like, Well, I would love to remove all the material constraints that are on people forcing them into prescriptive monogamy or polyamory or whatever, but, um, but then, you know, do you do you wait until all those are done before we address relationships? Or do you do it the other way? It's We can't do anything until we've done doesn't necessarily have to be a queer issue like it might be some part of the [01:05:30] polygamy or polyamorous queer community might wanna push that and might wanna, you know, gain that. But it doesn't like I mean, that's gotta come from. I think it's a false dichotomy Of course, we are for the right, for anyone who wants to to be polygamous or anything else. And, um, we're also for the right. For people who think polyamory is, um is is the way to go and good [01:06:00] fun and it meets their needs. And they know that there are other people whose needs it would meet who don't know about it. Who could join. Of course, they're going to say, Hey, polyamory is great. And why don't you come along and be polyamorous and I defend to the death their right to to advocate that, um and I? I have a sympathy sympathy for a lot of the the psychology that's behind that, Um, but we also better know [01:06:30] that it will be a very minority sport in the current society that it requires quite a lot of privilege to be able to maintain a po polyamorous life for very long I. I mean, I'm sure it's possible for a few years for a large swath of the population, but it would require quite a lot of resources to be to be polyamorous with, [01:07:00] uh, you know, a career and kids and all that kind of thing. I'm not saying it can't happen. It does happen. It happens very successfully. Uh, but it's exceptional, and it will go on being exceptional. Um, And so whilst popularisation of polyamory and popular popularisation of an identity as polyamorous is something which is great at the same time, it is important to be fighting to stop the [01:07:30] suicides. Uh, it's to to to be addressing the actual material conditions, uh, of of kids, uh, and and other people who are just in in, in, in, in ghastly situations, you know, and and and And when I I say that it's sometimes like you're you're you're in a war zone. It really feels like that. It's OK dealing with with with with one or two, suicidal kids. But if you get three or four of them at the same time, [01:08:00] um, life becomes actually quite difficult to handle for the people who are trying to look after them. And how much more difficult is it for them? Uh, a AAA And and And the, you know, the there are political solutions which will undermine this as a problem. And they're hard to fight for. But we do in in in in small ways. Get make progress, uh, and and And that that it It seems to me that we can do both of these things. They're not. [01:08:30] It's not an either or thing. I wanted to go back a little bit because, you know, um is very rarely practised by the very rich. You know, all these princes and things. They've all got their mistresses. They've all got their illegitimate Children who are dukes of this and da da da of that, you know they can't. We can't get abortions. But rich women have always got [01:09:00] an abortion, right, you know. So that's is that we have to see that monogamy has a special role in society. And even before nuclear families, when there was the extended family, it still worked the same way as being oppressive. It's there for a reason. We are taught. We have to be taught how to behave and what orientations we should have. And I just [01:09:30] agree with you about what Romeo and Juliet is about. But it's, you know, there it is. It's clans, right? And a girl has fallen in love with the wrong clan. That's what it's about. It's about which family is going to control their female. Um, so monogamy is really for the middle and lower classes. Um, abortion [01:10:00] is not to be had because it means you'll be sexually free contraception. You'll be sexually free. And you know, free love is, you know, you think of Woodstock and all the rest. It's all very fine. But when you wake up and you find that you're actually pregnant, it's not such free love after all. Um, so you know, we need a society where these things aren't an issue, and then people's sexual expression is able to be accommodated regardless of what it is. That's what we want. [01:10:30] Yeah, I think I'm just Where are we? We're not technically running out of time to. There's nothing afterwards, but a long time. I think, Um, what I didn't mean to touch on within the speech is that I think a material reason that historically I think to different degrees. But that sexual relationships are often considered in this sort of like compelling yet terrifying separate category is that [01:11:00] having sex for much of history is something that feels awesome and can straight up kill you like through the spread of disease or through pregnancy and death and childbirth and all. It's an extreme support. Really? So I think, um, yeah, it's possibly I mean, you know, we saw the way that society changed after the in the invention of the pill and and so forth. You know, it's a, um I think touch on [01:11:30] what some of what Bill was saying is that, um, you know, there's this guy, Paul. If you ever know who said that it would be nice to assume that we could sort of just improve society by teaching everyone to do it better. But there's actually a material basis for ideology, which kind of reproduces and reproduces itself. Um, so, yeah, remove certain material constraints here will change the I change the ideology a lot faster. Cool. [01:12:00] We're done it. We done. Have we sold it all? Yeah, Yeah, everything. You can all go home. There are some fantastic things that should happen, but they're not going to because we're going to drown and feed it by hurricanes. Um, yeah, maybe we can delay it a little bit. [01:12:30] Thank you, guys.

IRN: 770
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_conference_session_9.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004274
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089568
TITLE: Session 9 - Beyond conference
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Conrad Johnston; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Sandra Dickson
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Beyond conference (2013); Conrad Johnston; LaQuisha Redfern; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Ngāruawāhia; The Queer Avengers (Wellington); To Be Who I Am (2008); Two Ticks Campaign (2011 Census); Wellington; Wellington High School; attitude; behaviour; bullying; census; children; clothing; colonisation; community; discrimination; drag; gender; gender expression; gender identity; genderqueer; intersex; language; media; non-binary; social media; support; transfemininity; transgender; transmasculinity
DATE: 12 October 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington High School, 251-281 Taranaki Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the session: Beyond the gender binary.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: We're going to be talking about realities of gender beyond the binary today. Um, we've got three fabulous panellists to talk to that I'm going to read the introductions that they have provided. So Alex is an intersex firm, non binary trans person. She's a nursing student and facilitates Queer Trans Fight Club. Yeah, Conrad and Lasha over here House from where he spent his formative years being confused about which were boys and which were girl sorry, which were boys and which were girls toys. [00:00:30] I was thinking, Wow, what an interesting a naturalised Wellington. And he runs a modest Web development business and performs as the luscious LAIA Red Fair. He's recently announced his gender queerness, but those close to him or her knew all along and to my immediate right is an out queer identified non-binary, intersex change agent, artist, therapist, media commentator, workplace support person and trauma and disaster specialist. [00:01:00] So we are going, they are going to introduce themselves to you, and then we're going to have a wonderful flowing conversation. We're just asked. This is being recorded for people that do not want to be recorded. Can you flag that before you start to comment or make a question that would be very helpful for our dude here. OK, when we go, he's been pissed. I can go first, [00:01:30] I guess. Um, so, yeah, I grew up in, um oh, I can I put my the Globe Theatre voice on. I grew up in I was born in 1977 and, um, my parents were kind of hippies, which was kind of lucky, but in this really kind of, they were school teacher way. And I always wanted to get into my mom's makeup when I was a kid, and we had this great dress up box that had mum's clothes in it. And there was this, like, [00:02:00] sunflower dress that I always really liked. And I always really wanted a Barbie dream house. But I also really wanted to play with Lego and programme computers and ride my bike. Um, I've never really and I I and, you know, like when you have role models, I imprinted on all of the wrong role models. So basically, my role role models were Claire Huxtable. Alison mo. Um, yeah, and I got a lot of grief at school. Um, like we probably all did because [00:02:30] I was a bit of a girl. Um, but then I was It was complicated. And I spent a lot of money on therapists over the years so that you guys don't have to listen to all of the things that I've talked about. Um, I've been doing drag pretty much since I was a kid. Um, and recently well, I think I've known this for a while. I submitted a photo of Lasha, which is my drag name to this gender blog and kind of wrote this [00:03:00] thing. And it was the first time I'd really admitted it that I'm like a drag queen. But I think this gender stuff goes a little bit deeper than just wanting to be an entertainer. It's the truth. And every morning I feel like I make a decision to present as a man, and I don't think everyone in the world that's a really conscious decision. And so I get up and I'm like, OK, well, I'm running my little business. It's pretty straight. I better just wear man clothes and no [00:03:30] makeup, or I'd be like, OK, well, maybe I'm gonna be a girl today because, you know I can and my other office buddies don't have anyone coming in that's gonna freak out. Um, yeah, and it's not always easy. Um, in the eighties was a damaged town. It was extremely damaged by colonisation. I can't even there aren't even enough tears to cry for what happened there. Um, 25% [00:04:00] unemployment, domestic abuse, gambling, alcoholism. So my family was really safe and nurturing. But the minute I went down the end of our driveway, you had to look out because there were unchained dogs, wasted grown ups behaving inappropriately. Um, you know, me and my brothers got in lots of fights, and I've taken it with me, but, like, it's something I can never shake free. And so when I walk around Wellington, I'm always on high alert. [00:04:30] Who's going to be troubled? How can I get away? Am I gonna like staunch them out, or am I gonna run? You know, like this is always going through my head. And when I present my I am now, it's even more dangerous because I know that I don't even know why people react so badly. But they do, and I'm laughing. But it's not funny. And, um it's caused me a lot of anxiety over the years. Um, I take some medication that helps a little bit. Um, and I've been lucky [00:05:00] as well because I've got a brain. I was able to get an education. And the reason I'm self-employed is because I just can't work for people where I have to present as a man all of the time because it just makes my head explode. Um, and that's probably probably a good kind of introduction to my relationship with gender queerness. Although today I was like thinking maybe I could be bi gender. That would be a fun word there. There aren't even proper words, really. And, you know, [00:05:30] we're all just making it up as we go along. In fact, we might do this later. We called it the vocabulary void. So anyway, thanks, we I would like to go next, Right? I'll go next. Um, I'm I'm both nervous and excited, and it's interesting because I really get nervous, and I'm nervous today because I'm very clearly taking off my head [00:06:00] as a therapist and a professional person in the city. I'm not leaving it. It's part of who I am, but what I want to bring into this space today and try and create some safety is about something else, and this conference is called beyond the binary, and that's what we're going to be talking about and celebrating and tumbling with this afternoon. And so, um, for myself, I started this journey 25 years ago and and when I started, there was nothing. [00:06:30] The first images that I got of myself as an intersex person was reading a medical textbook, and it was important because it was the first time in my life that I had seen an image of myself, a reflection but pretty brutal way to introduce who you might be. Other naked people with black strips across their eyes. That's how I found. And so in that 25 years, I feel really excited that we have visibility and I'd wish this [00:07:00] slide show could have been playing because I wanted this celebration of diversity and those of us who are finding and being and maybe even today a little bit of having fun about being different in the celebration of that. So, you know, we we have less than an hour now, but certainly that's what I would like to bring to this. So bring to it heart. Um, bring to it, beauty, bring to it celebration. [00:07:30] But also what you've been talking about those tears because there's a lot of us that didn't get this far that haven't made it because it was just too hard. So yeah, that's who I am. I'm I'm here in my non-binary, um, celebration of all of who I am and talking about how I've got to this place and, yeah, I'm still a therapist, but it's upside down and just watching at the moment. [00:08:00] Um, that's a pretty It's pretty hard speaking after money because I think she's just done so much for so many people and is just such a wonderful person. And I just want to acknowledge that before I talk to myself. And it was great hearing a bit more about you, Conrad, I've only ever seen you in drag as a, you know, as an entertainer. So it's nice to hear you this stuff. Um, So, uh, I also wanna say that I am feeling [00:08:30] quite anxious today, So please bear with me if I'm not the best. Um, so for me. Um I guess. Yeah. So I said that I'm I'm intersex. I'm also, um, Trans And, um, in case anyone is unclear about that, those are separate things for me. They're, you know, interwoven. But for a lot of people, they are separate. Um and, um, so [00:09:00] I identify as non-binary. Um, but beyond that, I don't really have any labels for myself. I don't see myself as gender queer. Um, I thought for a little while that I might feel good with the term, which means, like, neutral. But again, I don't really feel like that's me either. Um, and it was, I suppose, for me coming to terms with my gender or finding my gender has been I don't think [00:09:30] I'll ever find it or, you know, describe it. But, I mean, that's part of the beauty of it for everybody, I think. But, um, So for me, um, I think I mean, as someone who's intersex and my particular type of body, Um, because not again. Not This isn't everyone's experience, but for me, I was quite obviously, um well, I I heard that people were talking about passing earlier. I have not really passed [00:10:00] since I was about 12 as, um, part of the binary. And so that's been an interesting experience for me. Um, it's been difficult dealing with some of the stuff that people put on you, but it's also I feel being quite useful for me in learning how to, like, not give a shit about what people say. Um and, um so even though I didn't present [00:10:30] as part of the binary for a very long time, I didn't actually really consider my gender very much until maybe like, three or four years ago. And, um, when I realised that I didn't identify as a woman and it was kind of a slow process for me going well, if I'm not a woman, then I must be a man. So that was kind of a silly leap, I guess. But I didn't know any better. And so from there, going well, actually, [00:11:00] I don't feel like that sits right with me and sort of find trying to find words for myself and trying to find sort of ways of being in my body. And I was thinking today how different it's been for me figuring out, um, what it is that I want out of my body because it's been quite pertinent for me recently. Um, going through, um, some issues with getting hormones and getting surgery and stuff like that. And just seeing [00:11:30] how much things have changed for me in terms of wanting, um, different things from my body over time and I think acknowledging, yes. So for me, my gender really has changed a lot. And what I want from my body and how my comfort levels with different parts of my body and what I want done to my body and what I want to do with my body has changed so much. And so I don't think I think that, um, [00:12:00] for me, it's not just fluidity within a spectrum within people. It's fluidity through time. That, I think, is quite an important thing to ignore. Um, so I guess. And would it be OK if I talk through some of the things that I thought was relevant for me? Just a couple of points that I wanted to bring to today. We've talked before about what we're doing. So the Yeah, that would be wonderful. Um, so [00:12:30] just just thoughts that I came up with that were relevant to me for what the what we're talking about today is beyond beyond the gender of binary. Um, and they are very specific to my thing. But anyway, so one of the things that I've noticed that in terms and again this is in terms of more in terms of, uh, transgender identity stuff for me is, um, I often get lumped in with trans masculine people and [00:13:00] which is weird for me because I don't actually identify with masculinity at all, and people might be looking at me and wondering how that is, but, um, yeah, presentation and how you feel are quite different things. Um, and also, I feel that the assumption that they can be trans masculinity and transfeminine for everyone is quite rooted in the idea that sex is a binary. And so you're moving from one thing to another thing, um, one discrete category to another [00:13:30] discrete category and that those I don't know, I find that quite difficult. So th that those terms, I guess if we're talking about vocabulary, those terms are kind of difficult for me. Um and I guess kind of linked in with that the binary assumptions that even within the queer community who I feel like we should know better. A lot of the time, I feel like we still assume that, you know, if somebody appears to be not [00:14:00] as gendered, we assume, assume that they are, um, still binary identified. Um, so even, for example, even my girlfriend, who is a butch woman People read her as a trans man that, like, there's no other option than like a feminine woman and a masculine man. And I find that really bizarre. Um, and that's within the cursing. That's not Yeah, and a little bit [00:14:30] linked in with what Conrad said about how non binary isn't just gender queer. It is things like bi gendered and and that often, um, we kind of I feel like there's this thing where, like, those things are conflated and that there are many types of non-binary identities out there. Mm. I'm sorry. Um, I have a point as well. [00:15:00] Um, so because I was just thought about the thing that I've just shared and my story, if spun in a certain way, can be real heavy. Our girlfriend grew up in the ghetto. It was real hard, you know, they just walking around town. That's all for real. But life's great as well. Um, and one of the things that I think I would like to see come out of this session is kind of some solutions. And I would like especially people younger than me or at a different part of their life, [00:15:30] to not have to go through the same silly bullshit that I went through. I think that's for me, a really thing that I'm quite excited about. Um, so I don't know. I always want a whiteboard. At this point. There is a white board. No, actually, I want to turn letters over, like in the sale of the century. Um, and it's funny that and I'll just put before I get into this. I just want to say, um, I'm also aware [00:16:00] that I think I've talked a lot about, um, My Lady self as being quite clothes and makeup, but it's deeper than that. It's about behaviours and attitudes as well. And I mean there's a whole, like sociology doctrine in this, about how different attitudes and behaviours are ascribed to men and women. I mean, the real naive take on it is like come together a nurturer, but it's way more complicated in a nuance like that. Um, and I know that, um, I don't subscribe [00:16:30] to all of the guys stuff or, Oh, God, it's not even words for it. It's so like broken in my mind. I try and make sense of how the world is, and I'm like, How does everyone else do this? I got me at a contracting gig dressed in my jeans and ironic hips, the T shirt because I do a lot of work in a design fraternity and I look around and I'll see other sis woman dress like me, and then I'll be like, Oh, so they can kind of we can dress same same, even though we're like different genders. [00:17:00] So just go with me here. And then I look at some of the account managers, this woman who dressed like drag queens, and I'm like if I turned up to office dress like you, there would be such a huge deal, and it's like so much power to just some bits of fabric. Um, and I know that when I try and sometimes talk to other people about these crazy ideas, I'm having. I just kind of get this, like, look. No, no, I took my medication. I totally did. It's got, like, the days [00:17:30] on it. I know. Look, See, Tuesday, I took it. Um, but anyway, what I wanted to do was if we could, like, maybe name some of our heroes, heroines or quero ones, people that were and just kind of shout it out in a crazy kind of way. So I'll start Hux the ball. Hey, surely Patty Smith. Yeah. Julia Saran. [00:18:00] Oh, dear lord. Mm. They meet the average and Captain Janeway from Star Trek. Oh, well, if we're talking sci-fi. Yeah, and one of the nice things about getting away from binary is is we're now in [00:18:30] a multidimensional, you know, limitless world that has no beginning and no end and endless possibilities. It's making my tummy feel upset. Motion sickness. Um, and along with the, um, the kind of solution stuff, it's just community is having people to look out for each other. So one of the things I really encourage people to do after this session is friend each other on Facebook, follow each [00:19:00] other on Twitter, get the email address, get the phone number because we're all we've got, you know? Um, yeah, really. We just got to look out for each other. Um, yeah. Like Conrad and I were talking about this and I was talking about, um, one of my friends in San Francisco. Those of you who have seen intersection where they've seen Suji. So Suji, when she was young, was part of the, um, street Mafia in San Francisco. And there was terrible [00:19:30] violence against the particularly the the the queer community, the non-standard community. And so the community decided they'd do something about it. And they were martial arts trained, and they used to walk around at night with, um the the team had handcuffs, and they had whistles. So if if if some bad shit was going down, you could blow your whistle and these guys would arrive and whoever was harassing people, they would throw them on [00:20:00] the ground and cuff them, and then march them into the nearest cop shot and just throw them in through the door so these people would arrive cuffed because the cops had to do something because you had somebody in handcuffs and they had to cut them out of them. They couldn't just not do anything. And it's like a story that's really beautiful. And and we've forgotten how to do that. We've forgotten, actually, that we're entitled to be safe in our communities and And how might we do that? Because in Wellington, [00:20:30] at the moment it's not very safe. It's not even safe, particularly during the day. And it's certainly not safe at night in lots of places. If you're presenting in a in a non binary way, Um, there's actually enough for everyone. I just count it. So So what I'm gonna do is make some noise. Yeah. Are you gonna hand them out? Yeah, I totally I think what I'm gonna do is say take one and pass it on. If you would like a special or OK, [00:21:00] how do you sort of just rip them off the top? They don't just go Look, I made too much noise. I need, I think, just wrapped them off the cardboard here. Beautiful. I know it was just a complete accident, like a total. [00:21:30] I worked for the film production company and they had their run around, so I was like, Can you go buy speedy whistles. Yeah. So maybe this is the, um, space to open it up and just start talking someone over here. You, um I just wanted to kind of talk about a conversation I was having at the pub [00:22:00] last week. Um, about a guy who, um he had a friend. Um, and he had met up with her for the first time in many years. And the last time he had met her, she had been Daddy, um and he didn't know how to deal with this concept. Um, he was He was older, He was in his fifties or something. And and it was it was a very unusual concept. And so instead of talking about that, I was talking about, you know, marriage quality. And it's like, Are you OK with the concept of the fact that [00:22:30] that two women can get married now or two men can get married now and he's like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. It's like, OK, but 20 years ago, you couldn't deal with that because marriage was a thing where it was between a man and a woman, and that was how it was. It was an a MC, and they went together, and that was the only way of dealing with it. And now we've got this grade that wasn't there 20 years ago, where it used to be more years ago that you were a man and therefore you were only attracted to women, and that was the only way it could be. And now there is this [00:23:00] grey and we have to deal with that. And I think one of the best things about the last I'm gonna say 10 years. And I'm sure that everybody's gonna have a different number for this. That the the binaries and the grades that we accept within our community have have kind of started going up and up and up and up, and that the the space between what was assumed to be the only possibilities has grown massively. Um, and that's great. Like, that's the only way that we're gonna be getting to the place where [00:23:30] there is exceptions for people that don't feel they've got an A in, um and I don't really necessarily have any answers for the people that we for for those for those spaces that aren't there yet, But I just kind of an observation that those spaces have become much more common mostly by people working really fucking hard. Um, thank you. Thanks. Um, I would like to respond to that. Um, and I definitely agree with you, um, [00:24:00] that things are different than they were in the eighties, which is kind of as far back as I can remember. Um, however, I have noticed that just at the moment in our kind of pop culture is provided by the media giants of L A and a little bit England. It's pretty gendered at the moment, actually, pretty gendered Miley Cyrus is Miley Cyrus, and boys are boys and and I think back with like, longing to the like, heroin chic, [00:24:30] androgynous models of Calvin Klein's nineties campaigns or glam rock in the seventies. Um, but I don't know what it means. It's just an observation that yeah, that popular culture has become quite binary. Oh, and actually, the other thing, as well as Children's toys Oh, and oh, my God, it give me powerful rage. Really like pink, pink, blue, blue, blue, blue, blue. And I remember things in the, you know, kind of especially the late seventies early eighties. It was a bit more [00:25:00] kind of. And you know, Lego was for everyone. It didn't have to be pink Lego for girls, you know? Anyway, I don't know, just but it's like man yoghurt. I didn't know that yoghurt man yoghurt turned out I was like, Oh, OK, yoghurt. The, um, math mammoth food company. Their yoghurt is marketed as man yoghurt. It has on it, um, how to be a man. And it's manly [00:25:30] man that they extract it from I don't really want to know from From some glance, I can actually ask that a little bit because I've got a background in marketing and advertising there. Cooper, um, someone at the yoghurt company was looking at like like, this is what I think has happened. Someone at the yoghurt company was probably going How can we sell more yoghurt? Who's buying our yoghurt? Oh, wow. Yoghurt is the official food of ladies. We need to get cement to buy the yoghurt. And so a lot of that decision is like, it's the same with, um, like [00:26:00] cosmetics targeted at me. And they're like, Well, we should be selling this to everyone. The money to make here people and it's A. It's pretty sociopathic, actually. I'm not a big fan of the industry I work in. But, you know, my girlfriend got to pay the rent. I mean, I think it's interesting what you were saying. I read about the the fact that you can go to an event where women are wearing jeans and a t-shirt that are identical to the jeans and a t-shirt you're wearing. But then, in the office, [00:26:30] the accountant woman is basically in high fit and drag and something that you can't wear. And I mean, it goes all the way through to the point where Cosmopolitan magazine or whatever, like, I don't actually read it. But fashion magazines are selling boyfriend jeans for women, and so it's it's OK more for women to wear men's clothing, but it's not. The converse is not acceptable, and I think that's just really sad that women have [00:27:00] more freedom in pop culture to transgress the gender binary than men. I mean to be fair. Women have fought a long, hard battle through, you know, 1st and 2nd wave feminism like it's not like an accident, but anyway, I don't want to, like, keep talking and talking because I'm good at that other panellists. I wanna say that, um, the binary gender thing of products and media and all that stuff. That is why when there are surveys and they ask your agenda, I will never answer the survey. [00:27:30] I, I say, like, why are you asking my gender? Because that just accept it unless it's a product designed for for a certain genitals and they should be asking. But I think that's a problem. Um, and again, um, therapists sort of behaving well on the floor upside down. One of the disruptive things that's just happened in New Zealand and and the Transport Authority has got no idea what they've done. So one of the things that came out of the transgender [00:28:00] inquiry was the reality that, um, it's very difficult in this country for people to change markets. So now, in your licence, when you apply one of the things that you the categories that anybody it it's it was for. So um, the category is not to no, is it X? Is that the thing you're talking? No, no. It'll come [00:28:30] to you in the shower. It'll come to me in the shower, but anybody can apply for it. So when you go to, um, get your new driver's licence, you can apply for this category. It it's there for intersex people. But, um, it it it it It's anybody. If they want to, you can apply for it. This a good thing, Bad thing or just a thing. Oh, it's just a thing. And one of the things I thought would be hilariously funny would be just to start a movement [00:29:00] so that everybody does it, because suddenly then gender is meaningless. I have a question. Am I allowed to do that? Absolutely awesome. Um, and it kind of stems from that. So that, um, the fact that we don't, um, collect census information about sexuality or gender diversity? What did the people on this panel think about the two ticks campaign brain working and going back to early? It's undeterminate [00:29:30] so anybody can become undeterminate on their driver's licence, not non indeterminate. That's not a category in passport. It's an ex, but undeterminate. There's a legal category in New Zealand that was set up in the 19 fifties for Children who were born as intersex and and their desire to be good that transport people have hold it out of the fifties, which is [00:30:00] so funny. So yes, back to two ticks me. That's right. Um, I. I thought it was a good idea. I don't know, because I mean, I I'm pretty sure that it's well from what I've been because I'm a nursing student. I'm looking at this kind of thing, but from what I know, it's the census information that then gets used by the government to determine what they do with a lot of stuff like, especially in terms of health care. And I think that that's [00:30:30] an issue that's relevant for a lot of transgender and inter sex people. There's things to do with health care and measuring inequalities and that kind of thing, and there's a lot of inequalities in other areas as well that that just will become invisible unless they actually start to measure them or already are invisible. You know, the the two campaign is good as a disruptor, but it doesn't actually change anything, because what happens is the data input people then, um, gender [00:31:00] you off your name. So if you you have a normative male or female name, you'll be put down on the basis of your name, which again, I didn't know this when I changed my name. So I have money and no one knows how to gender money. And then they look at Bruce and they go, What? We've got this one. So I know from a census point of view that I'll be down as male. And it's a battle that, um, gays and lesbians have been fighting for a long time, nearly 30 years in New Zealand to include the [00:31:30] data on the census. And I remember being in a meeting probably three years ago, and we've been talking for nearly two hours and finally the boss. And there was this woman in black with a several $1000 worth of gold on here, and she stood there and she said, We're not going to change anything because it will corrupt the data. And it was just wonderful because the ring just burst into hysterical laughter and she didn't get it. She didn't actually understand that their data is already corrupt and [00:32:00] that in doing this we might actually start to uncorrupt the data. But that's their argument. That's why they don't want to change awesome. Correct the data. Um, I had a little bit of a tangent, but like a bit of a personal thing to share, and it's a little bit, um, a little bit came into my mind after going to being a good session, which was hilarious. Um, because I've been staying over with my aunt. Oh, my God, there's [00:32:30] such I'm a title. I will freely admit it. But there's and there's like, that worry about the height of a neighbor's tree. That's my auntie. Anyway, I was talking about, um because, you know, I'm like, uh, it's kind of so complicated even though, like on my own bi gender gender queer I identify as a gay man as well, because it's just Oh, God, I just love a big, hairy man. Ah, so much That's all I want. I'm not really clear on it. That's one area that I'm really clear. [00:33:00] Um, although I have had these, like non sexual romantic infatuations with, um Captain Jane Wade and Scully like, I'm kind of in love with them, but it's not in a sexy love way. It's in a I don't know something else. And so if I think about what I feel like. But I feel, you know, like, kind of guilty like, because I can really effectively pass this man like not it's not even I don't even get to try Big, tall, handsome guy as long as I don't You know, that's fine. [00:33:30] And I feel some guilt about that. And II I try and tread really respectfully when I'm dealing with the trans community. Um, and I'm surprised that I haven't had more A on the Internet about, um, having a beard and doing drag. Um, because there is. I have heard that some people feel like that's parodying the process of transition, which is not my intent at all. Um, but I just wanted to kind of say, You know, just say that these are things that that concern me sometimes. [00:34:00] Um, and I feel like it's a little bit like people were talking in the session before about being bisexual, and it's not been really obvious that they're queer, and that's, you know, that's an experience I have as well. It's not obvious that my gender is a little bit getting so There you go. I mean, I guess the reason I'm sharing it is because when I talk to people about the stuff, often they'll go, Oh ha, me, too. Why? Why do people not talk about the stuff? So there you go. [00:34:30] So coming back to another thing that, um, we started at the at the beginning and that's around languaging and the English language particularly, is, um, so bereft of anything outside the binary and and there's some exploring and there's some attempts to change that. And I think it's really important to acknowledge that it is very much a Eurocentric thing, that there are other cultures and other language constructs that are completely, um, beyond [00:35:00] the binary. And so my sense is that the culture that I come from, if I back into European, probably, um, England, Scotland, that I think in the past that it existed. So this idea of a binary construction agenda is is quite new. I don't think it's old and it would be really interesting to understand more how that came to be so I think of what's going on [00:35:30] at the moment and this claiming and adding to it and one of the things that's really important to me. I'm not saying that the binary is wrong or bad. I'm just saying, Let's add some, um, some other components and layers. So let's make this thing fabulous and layered and and reflective rather than this notion of two. Did you hear that? Oh, no. Well, I mean, just to Yeah, but yeah. II. I totally [00:36:00] agree. It is the way to kind of combat. A binary is not to say that those things are wrong. It's to make it a multiplicity. And otherwise you're just setting up a new binary between, like anti binary and pro. I don't know. It just seems silly. And and, I mean, it's also just respecting people's who they are. It's not fair to just say, Oh, well, your gender is wrong because you are a binary gender. It's not [00:36:30] absolute. Um, when I was, like, just starting college, I was about 13. And I remember seeing, um, the school counsellor. And it wasn't the awesome school counsellor. It was the school counsellor that came on, you know, every other day that everyone tried to just not see. And, um, I would I just remember talking to her about how [00:37:00] I realised that I didn't really feel like I fit into category A or category. B and her response was that there is another option, and she mentions that it would be really hard for me because I went to a uniform college. I wouldn't be able to. There would be no uniform for me. And that's why there's not a third option. [00:37:30] Because if you don't wear a skirt and if you don't wear pants, then obviously you, you you don't belong in a city where yeah, then that lack of actually having access to that language meant that for the next, however many years until I turned like 18, I didn't know there was any other option. So to be able to [00:38:00] actually see language kind of being created and like evolving that, like, specifically names, how I feel about my gender is really awesome just to actually see that in action. Um, one of the things that was a real, um, total mind blowing moment for me was when I realised that I'd really internalised this idea idea that to be a person, you had to be a man. [00:38:30] And so I felt like some of my, um, more masculine, which I would describe as like soft Butch side was coming from this idea that that was my personhood and that, um once I got rid of that idea or examined it or just even noticed it was there, I could go. Oh, right. OK, cool. So that actually doesn't really make sense. And then I was able to move on and get to a point where I'm like both and neither, you know, like, I'm both soft butch and hard, but I'm like, you know, and that [00:39:00] you can have both of them. And that's cool as well. You know, like you don't have to have. Yeah, you can pick your chips and take what you want. And yeah, it was really powerful for me. Yeah, something that I've learned through my exploration of of labels other than the The problem that I always keep on having is that labels don't define a person. You define your own labels. To describe yourself to other people is, um So I've gone through a whole lot of labels of, like, gender and sexuality. And at the moment I define my gender as GE, which is my name. Because then I get [00:39:30] to define what the German gender is, which has been really powerful. Mhm. So we're getting close to the end of that hour, which is really sad, and there's lots of people who haven't spoken, and that's fine. This is not a compulsory. Let everybody speak. But I do want to create a space where people can speak if they want to. So let's get into the small groups like groups of tools and just check in with the person you know, sitting near you. Are they feeling OK? Is there anything that they want to [00:40:00] say just so that we actually do create and hear what we've been talking about, which is respect and safety and, you know, a place to talk and it's OK to say anything and then we'll we'll figure out how to wrap it up. You know, that was beautiful. Just hearing the the energy and and the buzz that that went up. And I'm really sad that we we need to sort of pull it, pull it to an ending. But we do, um [00:40:30] so, So watch out for the emerging Mafia and we might actually be able to get to a point like in San Francisco in the seventies, that you can blow on your whistle and something good would happen, which would be the handcuffs would arrive. So maybe we, um, practise and celebrate and see just how much noise we can make in here. Are you ready? Yeah. [00:41:00] I have this vision that put in place the whistle is going and here we come. Yeah. OK, everyone, thank you for participating in such a beautiful and interactive session. I just want to thank our fabulous participants for smashing the binary for us and showing us all the ends that exist in there. Um, and thank you all for being part of it, too.

IRN: 777
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_conference_session_8.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004273
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089567
TITLE: Session 8 - Beyond conference
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Beyond conference (2013); Christianity; Cosey Fanni Tutti; Lesbian Information, Library and Archives Centre (LILAC); Marlene Dietrich; The Queer Avengers (Wellington); Wellington; Wellington High School; abuse; biphobia; bisexual; bullying; children; coming out; drag; family; gender identity; heteronormativity; homophobia; identity; marriage; offbeatfamilies; parenting; privilege; queer; relationships; religion; school; sexuality; shame; transphobia
DATE: 12 October 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington High School, 251-281 Taranaki Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the session: Beyond parenting.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I think I scripted everything, including the jokes and the pauses. It's pathetic, but I'm an editor. So there you go. Hello, thanks. Must go to my esteemed fellow queer parenting panellists for sharing with us today. I didn't know I was going to be talking first. There you go. Can I just say by way of confession that I was raised as a Mormon, and thus we were encouraged to regularly bear our testimony testimonies [00:00:30] in front of the whole church congregation on fast and testimony. First Sunday of every month here, we discussed any spiritual insights we had had over the previous month and gave thanks for simply everything, often while crying. This will not be that, by way of introductions is I don't get out on the queer scene to socialise much. My slightly ludicrous name is Squad, which I've had for a very long and interesting 31 years now since the age of 13, when I joined [00:01:00] a friendly girl gang with fellow Fitz. I'm part of this queer parenting panel for two very obvious reasons. Being fully queer since age 14 and fully a mum to two little girls aged almost seven and almost 10. I volunteered to write this and to make myself vulnerable in front of you all in this way, because I really wanted to be forced to have to seek out the tension between parenting and being queer in this highly exa examined and embodied life of mine. So [00:01:30] where is the tension? I'm not dynamo and I can't actually read your mice. But I'll throw this stuff out there. Queer and parenting. Yeah. So what? And what's the problem? Kids? What the fuck? What were you thinking? I hate kids So the world doesn't need any more Children. Why do you have to do what straight people do? Aren't you just another breeder? What's the point? Isn't it selfish to have Children? Couldn't you just adopt like us? Queer people who rescue animals [00:02:00] from shelters? Oh, I get it. You were straight. And you So you popped out some sprogs on automatic pilot before realising you were actually gay. So just come out and bring your kids with you if you have to. Sperm is gross, and I would not do that to my body. My vagina is a sacred space and will not be peered into or stretched open with forceps, and while I'm at it, my tits need to stay above the equator line and [00:02:30] breast feeding looks like a form of parasitism. Isn't giving birth just the worst thing possible? And aren't kids too expensive? I mean, I don't have a choice about where my hard earned tax dollars go, but I know that I'm indirectly supporting your lifestyle choices with your tribe of Li infested, food splattered Children in your minivan. And another thing. I can't bear it when kids are sitting behind you on a plane and they kick your chair. And don't start me [00:03:00] on the topic of crying babies on long haul flights to the UK Planned Parenthood. No thanks. Yeah, so all of that aside, as I'm guessing you are mostly actually interested in the idea of queer parenting. And if you're not parents already and I'm not even looking for queer people support or approval for my parenting endeavours, Although that would be nice. No, The tension for me in being a bisexual mother of two is holy and being neither within nor [00:03:30] without wherever I find myself. I am always a foreigner and interloper and unwelcome guest to use a metaphor made famous by an Austrian quantum physicist in the 19 thirties. I feel like Schrodinger Cat, which in the original fictitious experiment is both simultaneously dead and alive inside a radioactive chamber. OK, so that's obscure. But you get it. I always feel as if I'm occupying [00:04:00] two states of both both and neither, like two hearts of one person who has different lights going off on the panel of her brain, depending on where she finds herself. But this happens simultaneously. In short, I feel as if I'm always spying for the outside group, like right now. Even. Is that creepy or eliminating? See me as your queer ambassador with a special backstage pass onto the stage of conventional mainstream family life. [00:04:30] For it was me who attended those endless monthly kindergarten parent Teacher committee meetings for four years. I did this not just because one of my kids' teachers had an obvious crush on me, and I wanted to see if I could touch my knee to hers while sitting around a snack table that evening, or even if she would mimic my lesbian cock hand, which I would do on purpose while sitting across from her it be such fun? My big girl's current teacher is also crushing on me. How do I know this? [00:05:00] Believe it or not, and this may happen to you, too. But every time I walk into a room of mothers and Children with my Children and looking like I do, there is always one woman who sits up straight and gets all shiny eyed around me. Anyhow, back to my girl's teacher, who looks every bit like a nineties sport dick, right down to the frosted tips in her hair, I thought I would help her along the joys path to her own bisexuality by sending her a discrete [00:05:30] invitation to join a closed social group on Facebook for queer women in our area. Since then, she has called me that strange woman and all her overly friendly. Seeking me out has stopped no more. I contact people. That's what you get for stepping out, and my role is queer interloper in the straight world of mainstream education. In the process of justifying this exercise and self reflection, I've had to ask myself, What exactly is square about my experience [00:06:00] of parenting? And what could my audience possibly gain from hearing all of this. Can I throw some light onto some new terrain and point out opportunities for Intersectionality between mine and their lived experiences? Can I adequately expose my own privilege and subject position so as to get a little sympathy from my listeners rather than just boredom or contempt? Are they interested in my existential struggle? Am I struggling? Am I queer enough? I certainly feel queer enough. I've done 30 years of being [00:06:30] defiantly queer and looking like a tomboy freak, and I take every opportunity to disrupt others. Expectations about me. But what about my family? My male partner is only queer and that he lives with me. My kids, queerness or otherwise, is a complete unknown. Are we a queer family at all? According to the tick boxes in the recent national census, I'm married with kids, and I am in the process of buying my own home. Oh, dear. A quick survey of the results of a Google search based on the keyword, queer and parenting [00:07:00] reveals the following hot topics. Number one. How do you conceive? Will your queer conception be medically assisted or something else? As for my experience with conception, we did this the way you know, when a man and a woman love each other very much so, Yeah. Nah, there was no queer there. Number two. How did you state a pregnancy inside a gender variant body? I don't feel any gender dysphoria despite having a thing for Butch, but I can report that pregnancy was a fascinating, embodied experience [00:07:30] so exhilarating and yet so tedious and apart from a frightening and lonely two months with hyper extreme version of morning sickness. Both of my pregnancies were textbook healthy and according to plan, I did end up with swollen feet like inflated surgical gloves, scarily wounded abdomen, actual tits and the whole thing also got two wonderful baby girls at the end of it. Number three, partner rights. Get these sorted under the law. Um, yeah. [00:08:00] Married Opposite sex partners inherit the whole raft of parental rights as a matter of course. So there's no queer there. Number four. The common thing for Number four was coming out to Everybody is queer and the straight worlds you will be newly inhabiting with your Children can be very hard work. Here's the crunch for me And where being bisexual really kicks in and intersects with my parenting ethos and practise trying to eke out a space for your personal queerness at Plunket at kidney kindy at your kids' friends Birthdays [00:08:30] Parties on the various educational committees you may be serving on or just in the school grounds, generally under the cold glare of the fellow parents, can be draining in my life. As a queer parent, I'm coping with everyone's assumptions about who I am all the time. To be honest, if I were dressed to conform and let people think what they want of me, their life would be much easier. Although I think much less of an authentic experience disrupting others, expectations of my personal experience of queerness can become quite the hobby. [00:09:00] How could I forget the stony silence as the women on the Kindy committee were doing the rounds excitedly talking about their wedding anniversaries this year, when it came to my turn to speak in the circle, I was like, I don't know when we got married. Clang. Then there's the recent friendly welcome I got from the administrator at the library page on Facebook, which quickly became an outright and very public refusal to allow me to join the group as despite being the requisite non heterosexual status. I admitted to her that I had a male partner, and she replied, rather tersely, [00:09:30] that she was pleased that I understood about their membership policy. She also mentioned something about how the cookie crumbled. Ouch. I cannot begin to imagine what kind of prurient collective imagination cooked up those admission criteria for this particular bookish social group. I mean, what could I possibly be doing at home to negatively influenced my experience of using a library service? The mind boggles as far as throwing out the widely used and cherished LGBT acronym for the awful apartheid [00:10:00] era non heterosexual, where you were defined by what you are not and when you fail to live up to the dominant culture version of normal G. Yuck. So, yes, I think I may have managed to expose the Lilac Library's default. Don't ask, don't tell membership policy criteria. So how do I actively go about queering my family without them realising it? Even well, I have conspired to name both my daughters after transgressive women, my almost 10 year old was named after Marlena Dietrich, the German bisexual [00:10:30] actress and singer. She had the naval hat and long cigarette vein. My seven year old cosy Eden is named after Mozart's opera Cosi Fan Tutte. Well, that's what I tell people. Truth is, and keep this quiet. But I actually named her after cosy Fanny Tuti, a kick ass performance artist from the industrial music scene in the nineties who was associated with throbbing gristle. What a legacy. Also, I have none of the jewellery associated with romantic attachment. I kept my dear old dad's last name as my own, and me and Flamers [00:11:00] certainly don't celebrate the anniversary of our awesome UK visa enabling wedding ceremony. Although I think we are coming up to 17 years together this New Year's Eve, all that stuff there's like so much blah and heterosexual baggage. Something happened in the car park the other day in the car park, a pack and save that, I thought could serve as a sweet little metaphor for what it is to be a member of our subtly queer little family. When returning from a quick mission inside the supermarket, I found all three family members and our new dog still [00:11:30] in the car, but shifted into new seats and were in the others accessories and everybody laughing like drains. I was amused to find the dog in my seat and wearing my scarf. Our youngest girl, Cosy, was now in the driver's seat with her dad's glasses and hat on. All three humans were cracking up and putting on new voices and really enjoying this role. Piece of impromptu theatre. The dog looked confused but happy to be sitting on my cushion and high up on the front seat. So there it is, folks. Roles in our family seem to be noticeably [00:12:00] fluid, which tailors nicely with the fact that we each have two distinctly different names that we use whenever we need to shift the dynamic and find some space to be somewhere new. Although having said that while our girl cosy actually talks often about thinking of herself as a flying pig, we don't mock her. We are quietly hoping that this is a phase. So just to recap, girls who wear blue at the start of their lives go on to enjoy wearing pink and indeed seem to need to get their pink on for a good chunk of their childhood. years. [00:12:30] Nappies, blah, queering Your family is easier than you think, as this can be done in all sorts of subtle ways. If you can honour your Children's uniqueness, play games endlessly, speak softly to them and let them know that you are in fact, not just weird, but good. Weird. Then hopefully they will honour you back when the time comes. Right now, we are just trying to make sure that our kids know that nobody is ugly to look at but can behave in ugly ways. And everyone is normal, you know, in their own beautiful way. Privilege is something [00:13:00] that can be used with grace to make other people's lives that a little bit easier. As our big girl is almost 10 I as the mum, I'm about to launch into lots of candid talk about sexuality and puberty with both girls in an ongoing and surprise attack kind of way, which may be less embarrassing than the sit down for the awful talk method favoured by many parents. Here we will be learning that same sex attraction is normal but less common than opposite sex attraction, but that all warm exchanges between humans with bright eyes [00:13:30] and open hearts is to be welcomed. And one of my own beautiful future is the currently only queer in industry. In this four pointed, oddly Shak family, I am looking for new ways to have that authentically and visibly queer lifestyle that I want. It would be good to put Schrodinger's metaphorical cat back into its box to enjoy its endless state of particle flux while I do something else that feels more whole and more authentic as far as my two wonderful daughters go, all the evidence [00:14:00] says that statistically, my Children are no more likely to be queer than anyone else's. But it would be nice to have that conversation with one of them one day. I'm not sure how much of my queer journey needs to become their queer journey. That is totally up to them, of course, the more and rope between me as their mother and then becomes longer and longer by the day. While researching this presentation, I found this amazing website called Offbeat families dot com, whose brief is to support parents and caregivers who are moving beyond mainstream visions of [00:14:30] parenting. The contributors are so queer, and they're also so not queer and everything and everyone's take on life is so unique and presented as equally valuable. The site seems to be pointing the way. I'd just like to finish up my hilarious joke that I do. I have a hilarious joke. Well, I think so, that I tell when I'm out in queer company with people who I haven't come out to as someone with kids. Yet it goes like this. And it's all about playing on the assumptions fellow queer people make about me because I like to really work the whole kinky butch look [00:15:00] and will take any opportunity to show off my belly. I know it's sad, but it's all I've got. Anyhow. I lift up my shirt and I show my C section scar and I say, See this scar? I had this terrible abdominal pain, and the decided to do some exploratory surgery to see what was wrong with me, and you'll never believe what they found inside of me. What says the shiny eyed dukes? Listening to my story a human being? I exclaimed before laughing like a drain. Thank [00:15:30] you. Uh, well, uh, welcome everyone who hasn't been welcomed before by some of the panellists starting themselves as a few minutes late to opening the session. So thank you guys for starting off, um, before us. We have Chris over there who is part of the three. So with another Chris and Andy who couldn't be here today, and between them, they have seven kids. Um, with a wide range of age, Uh, with three or four months, uh, with three or [00:16:00] four months, Um, and the interest in extreme sports and travel and all those interesting things. Uh, S squares, is it SS? Uh uh is a 44 year old bisexual, uh, mother of two feral princesses, age seven and 10, and she appears married with Children in the census, but, whoa, what the fuck? Not even, um, And, uh, Joe here is the mother of John, George, Rosemary, and Bethany. And we'll talk about being a queer mother raising Children, [00:16:30] uh, raising crew Children and family life in an extended rainbow family. Um, so thank you everyone for coming, and, uh, we welcome the next speaker. Um, what I think they've decided is that they would each speak, and then we would open up for questions. Um, so who is next amongst the two of you. Marvellous. Um, I just need to get a bit of background about my situation. Um, I haven't got a such a well researched talk. That was great. Um, [00:17:00] I. I was married for nearly 13 years and had one child through that marriage who's now in his early thirties. But my two partners and we've been together since 1996 15, 16 years. They've both had, um, kids with different lesbian couples as donor dads. And Andy's got four kids with a lesbian couple in Christchurch. And Chris has got two kids with a local lesbian couple [00:17:30] here in Wellington region. So between us, we've got seven kids, which my parents are quite interesting when people meet you as a gay not as gay couple or great gay threesome. The kids is so another level, which they don't quite anticipate. We don't, um, apart from me, I, I, of course, live with my son until I split up when he was about 13. Um, the other six Children don't actually live with us. They can spend time with us. [00:18:00] They they have holidays with us, and, um so they've been around all their lives. Um, but we don't actually have that sort of household full of kids all the time. Um, yeah, I think as a as a parent, I suppose I was the one who had that transition from being a heterosexual married guy with a son who lived half his time in Wellington with his mother and half with us. And he, [00:18:30] at the age of 13, was introduced to Chris, one of my two partners who I was with for three or four years before I met Andy. And so that was an interesting transition for him as well as it was for me. And I think that, um it was very it was a very easy transition. I had a period of about two or three months living on my own where he got used to coming and spending time with me, Um, without Chris around. [00:19:00] And then when Chris moved to Wellington, um, we were flatting together, And so, um, my son turned up with both of us there, and it was quite interesting at the, um, meeting of his friends. I remember his first friend he met, um, we met of his was after only about two or three weeks. So I think he got quite confident quite quickly. He came to this school here when I was in high school, and there were a lot of other kids who had different sort of types of family [00:19:30] situation, which I think helped, um so that transition for him as a 13 year old seemed to work quite well, and And he spent well, it seems like forever living in our house. I mean, he was still living in our house in his late twenties, on and off. Um, like they do. So I think that, uh the whole living in a queer household for him was was actually put it on. It was all all set up on the right footing right from the start. And I think that he [00:20:00] always talks about us as his three gay dads, which he was doing at school because when Andy came to join us, he was still at high school here, Wellington High School. And, um, yeah, I don't think I had any much of a problem trying, you know, going from a position of having a now a gay dad with one partner to a gay dad with two partners. Although I remember at the time when he was about 16 17 and got to hear about Andy and how he was going to join our relationship, saying, Well, I'm not sure I think we should have any more than [00:20:30] two partners Oh, um because we always Yeah, we always I. I think that I mean, this is more about parenting, but I mean the whole thing about relationships. I think that our feeling is that you know, many, many people based relationships on the fact that there's lots of elements of society. You think that love is a very limited thing that's only only really, um, able to be a fixed to one other person or one partner. I think none of us believe [00:21:00] that That's true and probably to some extent in human society never has been true. That love and a loving relationship, which you know, is the essence I suppose of of our relationship is is something that is very freely distributed and can you know you can love as many people as you want. So the idea of limiting the numbers of people in a relationship beyond practicality and you know what works in the community you live in, I think is is to us not? Not really. A, um [00:21:30] I think that we subscribe to, um I think I might just leave it there. I think that Joe do her intro questions later, Tina. Fine. [00:22:00] Cool. [00:22:30] Joe talking. My name is Joe. I come from a place in the Eastern Bay of plenty of privileged to have been born in a in a place in the country that, um is [00:23:00] and to have lived there and loved my heart. I moved to the far north and married a Maori man of origin. Um, when I was 18 years old [00:23:30] and we had four Children, their names are John George Rosemary. Actually, we had three Children because then there was Bethany, and I'll explain how Bethany arrived in this. You know, little bit through this, this table in my life I have identified as a married heterosexual woman. I was a debutant because of my English heritage. My English grandmother thought [00:24:00] that was very important and that I needed to be a leader, and they tried hard. Um, and of course, I married my husband after the because that's what you did. I got presented for marriage and then got married. And my mother cried because she hadn't expected. She was hoping for a doctor, an accountant rather than a Maori boy who was a mechanic down the road. But we can't have everything that we want. [00:24:30] My husband and I moved to Australia and we went from Kaita to Oxford Street, all bright eyed, our world changed. We experienced our first gay parade Pride parade very quickly, very loudly. And, um, a whole new world opened up to both of us. So we had some colourful years in Sydney, Australia, and, um, [00:25:00] and so began the rest of our lives. We moved to Perth and we had our first child. His name is John. John is now 24 years old and he is a gay man. He's, uh, had a civil union this year, and his husband's name is Glenn. Um, I remember when John came out to me, it was an interesting experience in itself. Um, [00:25:30] he took me out for a cup of coffee, told me he had some news for me. I thought he was going to tell me that he was living in a port at the time I was had my I, I will admit, I had my fingers crossed. I thought he was going to tell me that some girl was pregnant. Um, and that this was just going to not be true to his soul, because in my mind, that wasn't going to be the right thing for him. He [00:26:00] told me he was gay in a public place. I keep asking him what he thought, What he what he thought why he did that. It was an unusual to Why don't you just come into the kitchen and say, Mom, I'm gay, And, um and he said I. I just thought it would be safer. He said I didn't want you to cry, which was sweet of him. I was like, I know I get a bit, you know, sometimes, um and he, um [00:26:30] what he'd heard me say at some stage, while talking to some people, I can't even remember the conversation. But evidently, at some point, I said to, um, a friend that I hoped that my son would not be gay. And my rationale for that was and I I heard the story earlier today from somebody else. My rationale for that was that I feared, for [00:27:00] his safety was pure motherly bias and fear for the safety of my son. I feared that he was going to be bashed and killed. And I didn't think that that was a safe choice for him. So evidently over a tea cup some time when he was growing up, I said that to somebody. Me Somewhere in our journey, you know, [00:27:30] I got divorced. Wasn't right for me. Oxford Street really was a delightful place. Um, but I You know, my husband and I separated. We tried hard. We were a couple of country kids. We thought, you know, we were doing the right things. And actually, we didn't until we went to Australia. Definitely not When we came back to New Zealand, we didn't know anybody who, um, was queer of any other Any other title. We only knew heterosexual people, and we lived on farms, so we separated and got [00:28:00] back together a few times. And we did that great thing that all heterosexual couples do, which is we bought some new furniture and had two more babies to try. No, um, which was, uh, George and Rose. Then finally we separated proper when Rosemary was one year old. And, um and I moved into town and then, you know, after an appropriate mourning period, started taking lovers as you do. And, um, I never ever [00:28:30] came out to my Children. My Children grew up. Um, just kind of understanding that sometimes, you know, ladies come out of Mum's room. Um, and that was all cool. Sometimes they came out more than once, and that was awful truth. Um, and we went to school. It would never really was, um, a a big issue for us. I sent my Children away. Um, no. They went to stay with their father for for New Year Eve. For the first time in in a number of years, [00:29:00] I've been at university. I went to a party. I took a few things. Months later, I felt a bit queasy. I went to the doctor and they went You're pregnant. Yes, you are. So after I recovered from that shock, and I realised that I had, in fact, you know, strayed to the other side again and obviously enjoyed it and got pregnant. Um, along came Bethany. [00:29:30] So I also had the joy of telling my Children that I was pregnant, which, you know, um, my eldest son was 15 at the time. There were a couple of things about that conversation. That was really interesting. One. He was like, Mom, I thought you were a lesbian. How does that happen? Um, and the second one was, Mom, I thought you'd been fixed. I I'm were part of that conversation, but, you know, bless him. He was trying to pretend that none of this was happening. [00:30:00] Um, anyhow, moving forward, we moved back to Hamilton, and this is where sort of life got interesting. My eldest son came out. My next son was a young teenager. My daughter was in, you know, 10 or so and I had a three year old by that stage, and we, um we moved into a big rainbow house. In fact, it was called Rainbow House, and some people from Hamilton may have heard of Rainbow House in that house with seven Children. [00:30:30] Four of them were mine, and three of them belonged to a friend of mine. And, um, he was also a drag queen. We lived with another drag queen as well. And then I became a drag king. So these Children who were predominantly teenagers and and a young young one, lived a very colourful life. We had all sorts of people in, and now they have that house. [00:31:00] I can tell you that all Children, regardless of gender or sexuality, love practising drag shows. Um, and life It all became normalised for them. Our our only challenges were actually there weren't any challenges. It was a joy to have their friends. They brought their friends to stay. It was kind of like for the teenagers, it was it was almost like showing off, you know, because they only ever brought their friends [00:31:30] to play on the drag performance nights. Mhm. It was like scoring points. We often talk to the to to all of the Children around problems at school because you'd hear about bullying and homophobia and that at school. And, um and we had a concern that they might be experiencing this. Um and so it was a regular part of the conversation, and they, you know, we all watch Facebook. It's the best way of stalking teenagers. Um, and [00:32:00] they, um they were really straight up. All of the Children each time said, Well, actually, if anyone gives us any shit, they're actually not our friends. If they care that much, that they're gonna comment. We don't have anything in common and we don't share their values. So I thought, you know, that's really cool. Why don't I ever think of it as simplistically, I think. And I guess that's depending on on where you come from [00:32:30] recently had an experience with one of my daughters. Who or home a a boy, Um who identifies as a boy. Um And then they approach me and and and the man that they call Auntie Daniel, who's a KA a drag queen. Um, because he had always wanted to wear high heels and a dress. [00:33:00] So for the first time in my life, I I found myself sitting having a cup of tea with a couple of teenagers and talking about the difference between gender identity and sexual identity. And, um and I kind of think you know, the universe for the journey that I've had in my life to be able to have that conversation. But I know that that boy is going to face a prejudice and is going to face labels because they exist within the queer community. [00:33:30] One of the struggles that we had, especially when we were entertaining we we lived in a community house. There were always people through our house. There were always people that crashed because it was a safe place to stay. However, one of our challenges was dealing with transphobia and biphobia in the community. I know myself from the beginning of my journey. Um, I first came out as buy because it seemed like a really safe option. And it's, you know, [00:34:00] I I I've been married to a man, so I couldn't be a lesbian. Um, and the sense of shame that some people was in the queer community caused me by their comments. Because, of course, you know, um, as a lesbian now, you'd be amazed how many people go. Well, you know better now then, or you you know, they have a SER and they say, Well, actually, I used to identify as by then and, um and we laugh. [00:34:30] Other gays, lesbians will actually laugh about that. It's like you learn And, um so the language we use, I think, is really important. It's an important part of parenting. I just wanna, um I'm not an expert parent. I throw my Children in there and see if they you know, say, what do you think of that? Um, and we have really honest and open conversations, and I think that's what's important. I remember taking my youngest daughter, Bethany, [00:35:00] to her first day at school. And, um, dance was the, uh, the theme that they were talking about in this new entrance class. And she is a very outgoing drag queen. Five year old, um and, um, she listen to everybody in the group and they all said So you know, what are you going to to do for this project? And it was Bethany that said, Well, I'm going to be a drag queen and the little boy said, You can't do that. It's [00:35:30] about dancers. And, um she was she was not going to lose that argument because in her mind, the most fabulous dancers in the world were drag queens. If this was if this was about dance, then she was going to be a drag queen. It led to an interesting conversation with the teacher because we said I said, Do you have any questions because, she said, you know as they do, Do you have any questions about your daughter's first day? It was like, No, no, I don't do you, [00:36:00] Um And And she said Yes, the drag queen thing. My daughter is raised in a rainbow family by the Rainbow Village. She's lucky she has a mother. She has her mother's partner. She has a father. She's got Auntie Daniel. She's got Auntie Jake. She's got Auntie Josh and she's got a set of drag queens who will, like, you know, anybody that looks sideways at her. And I said, But the thing [00:36:30] is, is this rainbow community She actually doesn't understand homophobia because it hasn't occurred to her yet. I think the most brilliant thing and the thing that sold me on that school was they said to me straight away, we are going to have to manage that and I said, I hope you're not going to manage my daughter and they said, No, we're going to manage the parents so that in itself was really wonderful, and every [00:37:00] teacher in that school did some diversity training. The following week, they called up the N CD I and they got a trainer in and they equipped the teachers to deal with the situation. We're gonna confess never to have been on the school committee. I think you're incredibly brave, but, um, I didn't do it when I was, like married, either. Yeah, but my motive was so it [00:37:30] definitely is an interesting journey, but I think it's a journey that we make of it. I have fun with my Children. I have Children who, um, are inclusive, who are conscientious who, um, love people who are not. Don't feel that, you know, And I've never experienced any of my Children feeling shamed by their family. And I have, um and I feel proud [00:38:00] when that they say that they come from a rainbow family and I think it's a really cool thing. And I'm grateful that they've been raised in this day and age, as opposed to how I was raised myself, which is I need to realise that queer folk existed, so thank you for your time. Yeah, I'm sure everyone will join me in thanking all our speakers for sharing some of those stories with [00:38:30] us. Um, I was going to open it up. So for questions or comments for anyone to share their own experiences. I just wanted to remind people that come to this discussion, which is with passing and marriage rights to same sex couples address some of the issues or adoption laws. These laws are still adequate and impressive. There's also been a little public discussion about the lived experiences of queer people with Children. How do your parents negotiate bringing up Children in the world? So thought an open discussion for everyone to speak about or to question about these people's experiences and also talk about [00:39:00] some of your thoughts on the subject. Um, did anyone speak? I am kind of wondering. I am a bisexuality student woman married to a heterosexual student man. And so my question is, my and I kind of came in sort of halfway through the I missed kind of. But But I like there was a discussion here earlier today about invisible [00:39:30] sexualities within the, um, and bisexuality was like a major one of them, and it also ties in with what you see when you get the the sneering sniggers from the queer community. Oh, well, you know better now, and I just kind of how have you been able to like that fucking really hit me really hard and like it's a way that I'm now realising it. In fact, just from this morning how much it's really hit me, um, and how much I've internalised it, Um, throughout my life and I am hoping to get pregnant sometime in the next year [00:40:00] or two, and I want to be able to bring my kid up knowing that their mum is queer. And then by definition, my relationship with my husband is queer because I'm in it and I like I'm kind of struggling with how to do it because it's so easy for me, like for that aspect of myself to very easily be subsumed into the general heterosexual expectation. And I'm just any tips or any ideas from anyone else. Like I said, I'm very subtly clearing my family. [00:40:30] But also, part of me doesn't want to. We have queer pride, and we're all working on that every day, every moment of every day. We're trying to feel proud about being queer, but the flip side of that is clear shame, and I want my Children to feel empowered. Give them some of that good pride without giving them the burden of the shame. So that's why that's what my talk was all about. About the subtle queering of of our family. And I'm not even sure [00:41:00] you know, I'm always gonna be mean. And I'm good. Weird. We're all good, weird. We're all beautiful. And so that's kind of the foundation of the queerness in our family. But it sounds like you want to do something more structured with your family. I think this all as an ongoing conversation is definitely gonna be necessary. Especially as like my in-laws are quite Christian in ways that I'm not happy with. And so there's going to be influences that I'm going to have to take a more structured [00:41:30] opposition to because, you know, my, me and my husband don't agree with their values, but they are still family, so that's going to be an influence no matter what we do. And so it's gonna be an ongoing conversation in our lives. So you don't have any kids yet? No, not yet. Oh, OK, yeah. Printed and speaking to today, I'm part of like giving a small group on Facebook, which is quite cool, and it was recently. She's obviously [00:42:00] they're still quite young. It's been a really good discussion recently about, like, body policing and fat negativity, and, um, especially when it's coming from an in-law. So someone was talking specifically about how to challenge your mother in law and as well as, of course, just being like if someone says something fat shaming or something, someone says something from a growing a cat just saying we don't use that language in our household. They talked about that as an approach, but also the fact that, um, you might be facing some of that stuff from In-laws. But also, [00:42:30] there is a likelihood that you're gonna your kids gonna face it from other places when you're not around. So I mean, they all talked and they've got kids for a variety of ages. They just talked about it being about the conversations you have with your child, you know? So like some moms and then this is all positivity stuff. Some mums take the approach that, like, you know, someone uses the phrase pigging out like, Oh, I am I going and turn it into like a bit of a fun game but also just like inside their own house, using fat in a [00:43:00] non pejorative way, you know, and, um and I and I and I've got a male partner, and I find I like my only involvement in structured childhood stuff is placed into the refuse to call my partner my boyfriend there. I always say party, because it's like there's a separate party and I don't want someone to contemplate the fact that I might not be straight and I'm living a very like a conventional lifestyle [00:43:30] at the moment. But, you know, yeah, there's someone that gets me. Even though she's only six months old, it's like, Will anyone ever think of me as a tool? That's but, um yeah, it's a hot one, Like a lot to be said to just focusing on how you talk to your Children about it, and just Bye, I've got a question for the panellists. It's probably a little bit of a Monday and possibly, um, [00:44:00] I don't know, odd question, but, um, with unconventional families like this, I'm just wondering how you've negotiated things around. You know, the cost of Children, um, and responsibilities around childcare and, um, who has time with the Children in the debate in terms of the biological parents. Also, other partners that are involved and stuff. Um, well, I think with my two partners with their relationships with the women that they've had families with, it's it's always been [00:44:30] the women who look after the kids and, you know, pay for them and and, uh um, basically, just just operating as as parents would without a donor Dad in the background. But the kids always knew from, you know, really young age that they had a biological father who was part of the family. So I think, um, I mean, those things get. There's lots of ways that people have, you know, tied those things [00:45:00] into legal agreements, Chris, and don't have any legal agreements other than the non biological parent having a legal, um um, guardianship agreement. I forget what that's called years ago. Now that was all drawn up. But apart from that which actually secures the other woman in the lesbian relationship who's not the biological parent with a legal right of access and guardianship over their Children? [00:45:30] Um, yeah. I think all that financial side of things was very simple because it's all their responsibility. But I think the, um you know, they, uh the arrangement can be quite flexible, because if anything happens to one of the parents or, you know, the kids get to an age where I I mean, Andy's eldest daughter is now 18 when she actually left home when she was 16 and it has been flatting. But she could well have come [00:46:00] and live with us. You know, his oldest son is now 16 and probably looks like he's not going to be living in Christchurch once he's finished school, and he might end up living there. So I mean, I think all those things just depends on the kids, really, on what they want to do. And we've always been there and they, you know, for them. And they've always come probably spent, you know, at least a week or two a year in our house, all their lives. So I think they feel quite quite comfortable with the idea that we are parents also, [00:46:30] but we don't actually have that huge amount of time commitment with with them, but they seem that it's quite interesting. I mean, I'm out of the three of us. I'm the only one who's actually had that 24 hours a day being a parent. So when when the smaller Children are around, I get to do all those parent things like, you know, feeding and nappy changing. Because I'm because I you don't you only do it and you. It's like riding a bicycle. You can't not do it. It just comes naturally because I spent years doing it with just one child. [00:47:00] And I think that, um, yeah, it's interesting how even they without all that 24 hour a day care, there's a lot of what I've noticed is that a huge amount of genetics come through looking after kids. I mean, the kids know who their father is through. Just just almost like a. I'm sure it happens with, you know, all parents. You know, there seems to be that genetic link, even though they don't spend lots of time with us. So it's very It's very easy for them to, um to [00:47:30] come to us as as parents. So I think that those other things about who pays for the kids and all those illegal things actually are just things that some people would choose to do and other people don't. You know, I think the really important stuff is it all works anyway for most people, I'm sure at a a very, a very sort of, um, you know, innate natural level, linked with your with your offspring. So I think that yeah, I think whatever. Whatever works is fine. But if you don't do anything, it's fine, too. You [00:48:00] know, we, um we use the system of if the child is at your house, you pay for it. Um, and that works quite well on a 50 50 arrangement. You know, 50,000,050 day. If the child is at your house, when they do whatever thing requires money or you're going shopping, then you're paying for that. And that that's all. Cool, too. As far as childcare and stuff goes the 50 50 arrangement. But in my job, I was away a lot. So, um, the rainbow were the people [00:48:30] that looked after I will admit that we had a massive wall planner on the kitchen wall because we were coordinating drag performances, work and Children. You know, you had to We had to know. We know which parties we were going to when the Children were going to be here. There's enough teenagers in the house to look after the ones that weren't legally able to look after themselves. Um, somebody could get that child to school and pick that child up from school. [00:49:00] So we did it in a war planner. And I guess that's the advantage of an extended is that it was all hands to the deck. Um, I actually drew a lot of cars here because I'm from, um, quite a family. Um, and I have 44 brothers and one sister, and all of us have different and a lot of time different upbringings and ethnicities as well. Um, I guess what I wanted [00:49:30] to ask in a little, um, was, uh because it sounds like a lot of your reactions, I guess with the outer community, particularly the school one that you mentioned, you were quite positive. But, um, how do you deal with, uh, those more negative and hostile reactions? Because particularly because my mom's a teacher. Um, we've had the problem where people are willing to accept queer different families, but they I don't want them to appear like that. Um around Children, especially impressionable [00:50:00] Children. Um, because that's said to set a set a bad example. And other than trying to be a great role model, um, in all ways, I was just wondering what strategies you guys have to do. A lot of this thing, um, my Children got to experience, um, a first hand. Well, first they got to wake up in the morning and find their auntie Josie, um, being brought home from the hospital 11 o'clock at night. [00:50:30] Three people from our house were walking into town and they were bashed. Um, so the only way to deal with that with Children is to be brutally honest about what happened, and he was bashed before being a fag. That's the abuse that was being hurled at him while they tried to, um, kick his head in. And, um, you know, we had to sit there as a family and look at that. Look at the damage that they did and just be brutally honest about that with the Children. This is what [00:51:00] happened. This is why it happened. It makes no sense to us either, you know, and made no sense to the Children and made no sense to us. There was no explanation for it. And and that's the way we dealt with that. Yeah, I think from from my experience of having son growing up as a teenager and a and a queer household is that when his friends came, we were just ourselves. I mean, we were never [00:51:30] I can't remember any. I mean, most of the time, they sat around computers and had big, you know, in the 19 nineties, a conversation with the old wasn't really part of how life was. Um so I, I think. I think, what Joe was saying, that complete honesty about what goes on in the house, you know who's who's in the house, you know? No, no secrets, no sort of hiding. You know what goes on or who sleeps with who or any of that [00:52:00] stuff, I think just works. I mean, teenage, they're all boys. Hardly. There were girls. They were just house full of teenage boys, a whole bunch of older, queer men, you know, just like interesting. But I mean I mean, some of those some of those people who are you know, I remember when they were 13. 14, I still, I still keep in touch with, You know, my son still lives in Wellington, and, you know, it's very interesting. Their recollections of those days are are are just It's amazing what [00:52:30] bits and pieces they remember. But there's nothing negative that I've ever heard them say about that whole experience. I think if you're straightforward and honest, kids are just great at just picking up on that. And they just get on and do what they want to do, you know, and and and, um, ignore you. And they used to spend all night, you know, sitting on the computers, I One thing I always I never had any troubles with bed times because it was always You have to stay up later rather than you know, that negative psychology thing. So at weekends, they often stay up all night sitting around in a circle. And no doubt all the computers plugged in together [00:53:00] in the 19 nineties rather than fancy WiFi stuff, and they had a great time and just did their own thing. But they were part of a house, and, you know, we did the usual parents thing and provide food and sort of clean up a bit after them, and that was all we did. And, yeah, it didn't seem at all complicated. I never thought about being role models. I just thought about I mean, in fact, one thing it was I was looking back at it must be a bit embarrassing is that there was this part [00:53:30] of our house which is on two levels and our main computer in the house. In those days in the nineties, different era computers, no laptops was up in the roof space and we would have all sorts of conversations down below and forget there's three teenage boys sitting up there and And you think, Well, no, none of us ever commenting because they probably were totally not listening to us because we probably just chatting you like No, just droning away, you know? I mean, what we were talking about was probably of zero interest to them. But, you know, if we'd have been conscious of what [00:54:00] sort of conversations we're having, they probably would have been listening because we'd have been reflecting that somehow. So I think, Yeah. I mean, just cleaning yourselves and just doing what you do, and they just get on and do their thing. Is it it? It seems to work quite well. And I think if you think too much about it, I think that's probably the answer is if you think too much about it, it's probably not good. I mean, you just You do what? Whatever. And it's like going to parents evenings at the school here. I. I never went along as a gay dad. I talk to the teachers. I mean [00:54:30] I mean, you know, I mean, it just never occurred to me to. But isn't it always wearing away in the background with my ex wife talking to a teacher? So I was doing I mean, I never even thought about it. I just thought, Well, that we're two parents and we're talking to the teachers where my son's at school. And so I think, if you if you if you want to construct all sorts of complications, it's it's very good you can you can do. But I think it makes it more difficult to act out the roles then. [00:55:00] Well, just to answer your question, I'm very My Children are seven and 10, and we have tribes of kids in our house now because we live in a really poor, low suburb and my friends, kids, my kids, friends don't actually get to go out because they're so poor. So we have them all round. We take them out all the time. But, um, I'm very, very wary of my Children getting some kind of notion that we're unacceptable to their peers. Parents [00:55:30] and we've got my my 10 year old's best friend is a fundamentalist Christian Indian family and that there's a we've been What's the word banished anyway? So it it is happening, and I'm very wary of it, and I know that I look like a freak, but I'm just well, trying to make us normal. It's quite hard. It's the normal project. It's hard. I think they live the life they're exposed to. And one of my one of our favourite memories that comes rocks [00:56:00] out at Christmas time when people are going to remember when or at birthdays is you know, a 10 year old old boy screaming sister doesn't look fabulous under the lights to, um, you know, just to Stephen, as as men rather than a drag, a drag queen. And when we like you know, But, you know, we were both frozen to the spot going. Oh, hell. [00:56:30] And all you could do was laugh because that was what this child had grown up with and and, you know, he was a boy. You know, um, he he found something shiny that was gonna look amazing under the lights, because that's what he knew. And that's what he'd seen. And to him, there was nothing wrong. The the, um the young woman behind the counter thought it was the most hilarious thing that she'd ever heard. And, you know, the only people who were frightened with the adults who all frozen to the spot [00:57:00] going Oh, no. And actually there was nothing wrong. Cool. Um, I think, um, it's probably about time that we close up the stuff for, um I think our next session in this room is beyond marriage. So I thank everyone for coming and thank the panellists for this.

IRN: 769
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_conference_session_7.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004272
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089566
TITLE: Session 7 - Beyond conference
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Cherise Witehira; Kelly Ellis; Sandra Dickson
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Beyond conference (2013); Big Gay Out (Auckland); Cherise Witehira; Kelly Ellis; Māori; The Queer Avengers (Wellington); TransAdvocates Health; Wellington; Wellington High School; courts; drag; employment; fakaleiti; internet; law; marriage equality; media; nzdating. com; prison; privacy; pronouns; religion; representation; sex work; sexualisation; stereotypes; surgery; transgender; visibility
DATE: 12 October 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington High School, 251-281 Taranaki Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the session: Trans representation in the media.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: OK, so we we're here to talk about trans representation of the media. We're going to be talking mostly with how we deal with the fact that a lot of the media representations of gender diversity at the moment are pretty bloody inaccurate. Um, pretty bloody offensive and pretty damaging, actually to a trans and gender diversity to talk about that we have two people on this panel. We have Sheri over here. I'm just gonna read, um, she's description. Former sex worker Trans activist supporter currently working on her public service career, offers her perspective for what [00:00:30] may be the last time. To some, she is transsexual to others, she is female. To all who know her. She is just she and the other person who's going to be talking on this panel is Kelly, and Kelly is a trained and experienced journalist who deals with high profile cases who has extensive experience with a variety of media. So what, we're going to do a little bit similar to the other panels you've been, um, to probably is we're gonna have 10 minutes from each speaker, and then they would like to reserve the right to reply to one another, which I think is fabulous beauty before. [00:01:00] OK, um, cut everyone. Um I suppose, um I don't know, really where to start? Um, I haven't really prepared anything, but I think, um, this particular topic is very topical at the moment, considering all the coverage that we've had lately of, um, the young trans person in the media. Um, uh, personally, I think that that was quite [00:01:30] a positive look, um, and insight into, uh, trans representation in the media because they did, uh, get, uh, quite a few perspectives from a broad range of people, which I think is, uh, sort of the media's, um, what they really should be doing. Uh, although it is, uh, quite a pity that they started off sensationalising things, as they usually do. Um, and then further on down the wick, it actually [00:02:00] started bringing a more positive light to it and getting an a true community, uh, representation on it and comment on it. Um, now, uh, Kelly and I both, um, agree that there are certain images within the media of trans people. Um, that really sensationalise us, um, and see us in a very sexual light. Um, one thing that I really sort of like to say is that we are according [00:02:30] to society, we're walking, talking, breathing fetishes. We're pieces of meat. Um, I undertook, um, a social experiment. And I think quite a few people have done this as well by using a, uh, the same photo on NZ dating, um, creating a profile. Um, as a gay male, as a, uh, gay female, as a straight male, as a straight female and as a transexion, uh, most of [00:03:00] the messages that I received on NZ dating as a straight and gay male and a straight and or lesbian female were Would you like to meet for a coffee? Um, see how things go. Every single message that I that came through, um, on my transsexual profile were all sexual. There wasn't one single one that actually asked if I wanted to meet up for a chat for a coffee in a public place. Um, and that really does show [00:03:30] the the sexualization of trans people, um, and society's minds. And to be honest, uh, there are instances where, in fact, we've brought it upon ourselves. Um, because when people talk to the media, um, they, uh the media want this really sensational story? Um, about, um, you know, they want the down on the dumbest kid who's risen. [00:04:00] Um, and now, you know, got a positive life. They want the tear jerker. They really want the ratings. And that's what it's all about. They're really not interested in somebody who's just living. Not just existing, like most Trans people are doing is just existing. We are actually living. Um, we're out there in the world, um, you know, working on our careers, Um uh, really doing positive things, but in the background, not really right out [00:04:30] there and showing the world that this is what I am. You know? Look at me. I'm a transsexual. I've got a real job just like you, But it's, quite frankly, fuck off. Really? Because that's that's just how people see us. You know, as um how can you, um, as a transsexual get a real job in the real world per se? Um, because you're just a walking, talking, breathing fetish. You're a piece of match. And that's how people see us. Unfortunately, um, [00:05:00] and you know, there's a lot of media stories are the wrong ones. I mean, I personally was, um, a part of that a little bit with tampon gate, as some would call it. Um, that was, um we won't rehash old memories, but that was that. That was taken just to the max. You know, it was reported in the New Zealand Herald, and then from there, it just went absolutely crazy all around the world. Um, it even [00:05:30] ended up in the Wall Street Journal. It was crazy. Um, but you know that that's something that, um, really sort of reinforces that, um, we are still just different. And we're not a part of this world and that we how in the world can we actually be contributing members of society? Um, admittedly, I was the stereotype, um, at a very early, um, time of my transition where I worked out on the street, Um, as a six [00:06:00] worker. Um, some of the worst times in my life were out there, but some of the best and most wonderful times were were spent out there as well. Uh, lots of fun, but lots of tears. Lots of laughter as well. Um, but and now it's I've really sort of come to the farm a little bit and just, um now just working on my career and stuff and the media aren't interested in that. They just want the ratings. They really want those sensationalised stories about, [00:06:30] um how, uh, that that person who started out on the street is now, um, there, you know. And, you know, I've had a few, uh, calls asking, um if they want to do a story, et cetera, And I'm sure quite a few other people have as well, um, you know, But, uh, really, there's that fear of being outed for the rest of your life, you know, because the media do actually want to present trans people [00:07:00] in a positive light, But people actually need to put their hand up and do it, you know, and not actually shy away from it, you know? I mean, I understand. You know, you don't want to be out for the rest of your life, but we need more spokespeople, um, in the media. And there's not enough of, uh, there's not not enough trans people who are actually brave enough to stand up and do that, because that is very brave. And you, you know, nobody can be expected to to do that. But do realise that when you do, uh, present yourself in the media, especially, um, uh, film [00:07:30] media. Uh, you are pretty much essentially outing yourself for the rest of your life. Um, and that's something that, you know, you can't really expect people to do, but we do need people positive influences, um, out there on the forefront and actually saying to society that we are normal per se, you know that we can actually fit in if that's what you want to do to fit in. Um, but, you know, there are those who who want to be out there and totally fabulous and fly all their arms everywhere. That's cool. You know, walk down the street and your mini skirt and high heels [00:08:00] and whatever all good sweet as but, you know, there are those ones that, uh, just want to carry on and just get on with their lives. Um, but, um, yeah, I suppose that's that's sort of, um, an overview of it. But, you know, there are the the certain, uh, certain things that that you can say about the media, like when they report something in print media. Um, usually 100% [00:08:30] of the the story is, um, miso pronoun the person, or when it's 50 50 as well. When they refer to the person prett trans, they use the wrong pronouns and then post transition. They use the correct pronouns. Why don't they use it throughout the entire story? You know? And there's not usually now anyway, um, a story that's written about somebody who's Trans, um, and their story. But they use the correct pronouns throughout the entire story. [00:09:00] Um, to be honest, there are before, um uh, I suppose pre nineties, there was a lot of positive representation of trans in the media. Um, there was a, um, Trans woman in Christchurch who was murdered with a samurai sword. Um, by one of her clients. Uh, they never referred to her as a sex worker. They never referred to her as a trans [00:09:30] woman. They never referred to her or or her lifestyle that she used to partake in, um, like drugs or anything like that. She was just a person who was murdered. Um, and although that was a terrible story and a terrible situation, she was not misrepresented in the media. and it was very, very positive. And, you know, that's something that the media could have pounced on. Um, you know, and could have really, um, created a really negative [00:10:00] effect on the entire community. Um, by saying, you know, I mean, it's happened already. Now all trans all trans women are are hookers. And stand on the street on the corner, you know, working their ass off. Quite literally. Um, all trans women take drugs. Um, that's a massive thing. Um, you know, I even get people, um, come up to me and say, Oh, you know, do you know where to score any drugs? And it's like, Have I [00:10:30] ever told you I do drugs? Have you ever seen me do drugs? Are you just asking me Because I'm a trainer and it's like, for goodness sake, you know, and these are just random people coming up to me on the street. It's like, Oh, hey, is this Do you know where to score? And I was like, Please don't assume, you know, that's That's it, you know, that's that's sort of what what people have put us in. That's the box we've been put on. We're drugged up. We're hookers, and we've got no jobs when that's just not true. I mean, yeah, there [00:11:00] are people who are the stereotype. Absolutely. And I suppose, for one reason or another, um, they fall as through the cracks. Um, or they actually enjoy that life, you know, because it is possible to enjoy that life. I enjoyed that life for quite a long time. Um, but, you know, there are ones who are doing that just because they see that they have no other choice. Um, and we can't judge them on that. But in saying that, you know, we need more positive representation, and people [00:11:30] need to be a lot more brave to put their hands up and say, I'll do that. No problem. Just be aware you are essentially outing yourself for the rest of your life. And if you do do that, you know, there are things that that there could be backlash. Um, but that's only because of the small mindedness of society. You know, it's going to get to a point. Hopefully, um, possibly not in my lifetime. I pray that it will happen in my lifetime where, um, anybody can just be themselves [00:12:00] and be happy to be themselves without any fear whatsoever. Come on. I was just wondering if I could actually be able to after my heavy drinking session last night whether I'll be able to stay on my feet. Well, perhaps you could just No, no, just catch me If I [00:12:30] just picking up on what she said before, um, about the image, we create our own image, and I don't want to give you too much of a long dog ass story, But when I sort of began my transition, I suppose in in 2008, the first thought I had when I thought, Oh, my God, I'm some kind of transgender person. And instantly the image I had of myself was staggering up [00:13:00] K road and stilettos, uh, with a sequence dress and a blonde beehive wig chasing after, um, cars and looking for my next job. And I thought to myself, Oh, my God, is that Is that the image? Now where did that image come from? And that image has come from the media, and it's, uh, it's because what often, how trans people are portrayed. And, uh, if you just look at something like the big gay out. The trans image is some, um, overly [00:13:30] painted drag queen with a Dr draping an arm around John Key. And these are the images which end up on the front pages of newspapers and that kind of thing. But as I said, I don't want to tell too much of a long dog ass story, but, uh, as, uh, as as I started looking at this, I realised that in an incredibly public job like I have, which is appearing in court every day in the criminal jurisdiction, um, my mere presence as a trans person [00:14:00] was going to be, uh, changing, uh, the image that some people had because if, like me, they had this image of the sequence um, monstrous, uh, on K road. Uh, then how are they going to perceive me? And I realised, as I set up with some friends, a little trust called trans advocates, that our mission was to achieve influence because, of course, that's what we want. We want influence, [00:14:30] uh, achieve that look through our presence. So it's not about going off and being a great fire brand. It's actually about getting on with your job. and being unexceptional. Uh, if if not I mean when doing a good job, but not standing out like, uh, you know, the proverbial dogs balls, um, in the in the job that we're doing. So to just give you a little example. Um, I was reading the paper a month or so ago and some, uh, high profile lawyers [00:15:00] in Wellington's their child had been caught drink, driving. And there I was, reading the New Zealand Herald about some Wellington lawyers, and it was, but they were in the paper because their child had been drunk driving, and so that child would never have made the newspapers. But for the fact that she came from lawyers, lawyers were her parents. So I'm driving along with my son up to he's 21 talking about a drugs case I was and he said, Gee, you should hook [00:15:30] me up with one of these, uh, you know, one of these, uh, drug dealers you've got because you know, the pound rate that you were quoting from far north compared with you know, the bloody hydro down in the west Auckland. Jesus. You know, I got to scoot up there and ring it Does he hook me up? Hook me up and I said, Son, can you imagine you would make the front page of the New Zealand Herald if you got caught and he goes, Oh, fuck you, That's right. It'll be a a lawyer's son busted for pot and I said, No, son, it'd be transsexual [00:16:00] lawyer's son busted for pot, and, uh, that ended up that ended any further conversation about trying to hook him up with one of my clients for a pound of dope. And that's the thing. We are attractive to the media, and we need to be very careful about that because we are under more scrutiny as trans people than normal people. I mean, it it it just goes with the territory Now as I I trained [00:16:30] as a journalist in 1980. I worked as a journalist for a bit and then sort of, I don't know what happened, but sort of things went bad, and I became a lawyer. It's been downhill ever since then, Um, but I realised quickly that, um, there were a hell of a lot of other transgender lawyers, uh, practising law and that I was going to attract attention. Now, I'm the kind of lawyer who actually looks at [00:17:00] a lot of other lawyers around the place and who go from being cock of the root to fear the duster in a very short time. Those that caught the media almost invariably end up with their asses getting bitten by it. If you're going to court the media, uh, you got to take the good with the bad. And I've always had the attitude. The very best kind of lawyer is the invisible one because the client wants to be invisible for the most part. [00:17:30] And that's not achieved by having a peacock lawyer as you about much better off having a drab lawyer, uh, who who comes in through the side entrance and gets you in and out of the side entrance if you're the client. And so I've always seen the media rather not quite so much as the enemy, um, of lawyers, but as, uh, something, which is actually not very useful. Uh, if you caught the media, it's because you're short on ego short on work, uh, [00:18:00] or something like that. It can sometimes have a micro benefit for one client, but again, you know, once you start supping with the devil, uh, they're just about isn't a spoon long enough. And if you start trying to use the media to promote one case, well, then they're going to be using it. They're going to be coming and seeing you about other stuff, which you perhaps would rather that they didn't take an interest in. So, um, my point is that I'd managed to keep a very low profile, and I'd done that [00:18:30] because I because, uh, the media, uh, who are always after stories I had developed a policy of throwing out lamb chops to them. In other words, things like you want to get down to courtroom four? Oh, no, no, no. You've got something interesting going on in courtroom one. No, that won't happen till 2. 15. Um, Courtroom four duck down there for a look. And by doing that, the media realised that they were much better off having [00:19:00] an ongoing supply of useful information the lamb chops than coming and trying to have one big feed of Phillip steak off my back because that would be the last one. And as I transitioned, uh, I knew, you know, every day there are reporters in court and I can remember doing one trial and the first trial I did where I asserted myself as and sure enough reported on 60 Minutes was there. And from there on let a, uh, nearly a five year merry chase [00:19:30] where eventually they tracked me down and said, Time to do that story And I said, No, no, no, no, no. And they said, But you're right at the Marriage Equality Select Committee on Tuesday at three o'clock and I said, No, I'm not. And I said, Well, yes, you are. And we got a camera there, and at that point I was presented with the option of, um cooperating and achieving some influence or continuing to be curmudgeonly and, [00:20:00] uh and and uncooperative, in which case they go and do their own digging and write their own stuff. And I preferred not to have that happen, particularly because I've got a couple of kids. So, you know, in the end, I decided to go for that that cooperative attitude. Um, and fortunately, because they had pursued me for so long, uh, I was able to exert more influence in it, uh, in their story than Perhaps, um uh, I would have if [00:20:30] I put my hand up right at the outset. But the point is that they ended up giving what I thought was a pretty good portrayal. And it's not was not that sequence and stiletto image that many of us have and which is sort of, um, eed indelibly into my synapses. I want to talk now about surgery, and one of the most offensive things I think I have found is that Trans people seem [00:21:00] to be, uh, as a a great generalisation, uh, filled with a lot of people who want to talk about their genitals. Hi, my name is Cindy, and I'm post. This is often the first kind of introduction that will occur at, say, a trans support. And my first thoughts are I'm not interested in your genitals. I'm interested in your mountain, your river and your family, and you know, your genitals do not add to the strength of your argument. [00:21:30] They don't make you a better person than me. And in fact, the talking about your genitals and bragging about your surgery, in actual fact, probably makes you a a lesser, a lesser person. But the point I'm trying to make is that we have created transgender people, have created a culture where the world thinks it's OK to ask us. And we've done that by talking about it all the time and by brandishing our genitals, uh, in, uh, in almost [00:22:00] any discussion that we have. And, of course, we'll all have seen the dozens of documentaries around the place where, um uh, Sergeant Major gets turned into into Barbie doll with five simple operations in the Thailand chop shop. All done with a macro lens, uh, staring, staring at the the apparatus. And, uh, this is often done, obviously with the consent of the person who's doing it. And often I believe [00:22:30] it has been done with funding done by the, um, the documentary makers. So, you know, you know, uh, we'll pay you to do something, um, as long as we can film it. And while I can understand, some people wanted to take advantage of, uh, free surgery. It has created what I think is a AAA very bad culture, and that culture is overly sexualized. Trans woman. And it has created the culture where people think that it's OK? I mean, we [00:23:00] see it on TV all the time, So why can't I ask you about your vagina? And you know, and that sort of seems to be the the the mindset. And I say we need to crush that, and the only way we can crush that and it'll have to be a long, slow crush is just stop talking. Uh, except in appropriate circumstances about our genitals because our genitals do not define us. And the conversations about genitals. I mean, sure, Trans people [00:23:30] sometimes want to have a conversation about it, but it should be done in the right kind of space. It shouldn't be done in public. Nobody, uh, talks about their genitals in public. What's so special about trans people? And so I wanna make this point, you know, we should stop. Yeah, never ask and and never tell. Except in, you know, the most intimate of situations. Because we have created this monster, and it is a bloody awful one. And I can remember turning up to court about 20 lawyers [00:24:00] queuing up to see a prosecutor about, um, trial dates. And the first thing was, 000, you got a date to such and said, Oh, oh, good day. This is AAA senior partner and MEREDITH Connell, a lovely fellow who I'm sure could conduct himself in a decorous way under normal circumstances. But there he was in front of 20 people and said to me, Are you are you going to get the, uh, looking at me going? Are you going to get the And I just died 1000 [00:24:30] deaths? Um, she managed to keep my poker face and, um, just said, Give us the date, please. The point is, how could an educated person who was able to act with great decorum and diplomacy in his workplace and was excellent at it? How could he ask me in front of 20 other people about the genitals, what kind of culture has generated this? And as I say, it's the, uh [00:25:00] is the culture that we have created. Now, I also want to say this this, you know, and and, uh, anybody here who does drag who is deeply offended by this. Perhaps I'm not the, um the safe space contact to to to come and deal with but drag to many trans people is utterly offensive drag is gay guys dressing up and lurid stuff for entertainment. And, you know, forgive me. Maybe I haven't got a sense [00:25:30] of humour, but I've never been able to see the humour of it. Uh, because I see it as being very much like Black face. You know, some of you might be old enough to remember the black and white minstrel show. How the hell is dragged different now? I don't see it. I see it as taking the piss out of women and parodying and mocking trans people. And it's gay guys hogging the limelight. What is the image in the press? It's, you know, Miss Rina Dr Draped over John Key. It's not with the hearer. [00:26:00] Um, it's not me, you know, with my head down in court or shuffling through the, um market with my trolley. And that's because those images are not spectacular. And I think that what we have allowed, uh, the gay male community to do is effectively hijack the images of trans people that are portrayed in the newspapers. And I don't know quite how to address that. And I know that a lot of people disagree with me say, Hey, look you know, for God's [00:26:30] sake, you of all people, should hardly be getting concerned about what other people are wearing and do not think that just because somebody else is doing that is necessary. You know, dressed as funny is going to reflect on you. But when we have this image, this spangled sparkly image which, uh, all of us probably have when we think about trans people, um, there's the damage. And it means that there is sort of this this this image is there, and it's very, very difficult [00:27:00] to live down. And the only way we can live it down is by living a a non sequent, non sparkly life. And, of course, that does not attract cameras. So how do we improve our image? Uh, in the media? And my thoughts are is by getting on with our jobs, not talking about our genitals, not staggering around on K road, wearing, um, sequins, Uh, and [00:27:30] just being good people doing good work. And inevitably, I mean, I was talking with my father the other day and I said to look, I don't want to be famous for being trans. He goes, Well, you might not have any choice about it. I said, Yeah, but I want to be known as a good lawyer, a good parent, a kind pig farmer. Um, I don't want to be defined as this. I'd rather be defined as a pig farmer than defined as transgender because I should stop farming pigs. But, I mean, that was what I did, you know, till six weeks ago. That was what [00:28:00] I did. Um, you know, that's what I did. It's what I do to earn a living, put food on the table and that kind of thing. And those are the kinds of images that we need to create, in my view, not the images of, um, drag the images of, um, of of cross dresses, walking up the street and there and all they get up and that kind of thing. And I make this point too. The whole sexualized image of trans women. [00:28:30] It's it's completely false because there are no trend, you know, if you if any of you here, I don't know how many of you here know the kind of, uh, hormone regime that trans women go on. But transwomen, if they've had surgery, lower surgery will then their testes have been removed. Castrated the hormone regime that Trans women go on is the kind of thing which would have your average Texas jail warden if he was looking at the [00:29:00] the hormone print out for, uh, uh, one of his prisoners. Uh, well, a paedophile prisoner. He would be looking at that going? Yes, these drugs are very good. Now, your average Trans woman who would have a print out and show the printout of the hormone levels your average Texas prison warden would be going. Yep. The pills are doing the trick. The reality is that the pills that trans women take oestrogen and testosterone blockers have you know, you wouldn't [00:29:30] be doing it for sex. Why? Because it reduces libido. Everton's atrophy. You know, the list goes on a whole load of things which you really wouldn't be doing if you wanted to go and have a wild night on K Road. So that just illustrates note that we've got this incredibly sexualized image which completely is at odds with the lives of most trans people. And in the end, it's entirely up to us how we change these images [00:30:00] and the way we do. It is probably not by being spectacular in how we look, but by being spectacular in what we do. And when I say spectacular in what we do, it's the good things that we do. You know. It is almost spectacular for trans people to be seen as parents, to be seen as workers to be seen as something other than the sparkling image of a sex worker or a drag queen. And the ball is totally in our court. And as Trans people, [00:30:30] we need to be conscious that we are under the microscope and anything we do, anything we do, which is remotely newsworthy, becomes extremely newsworthy. Just because we're Trans, one of our kids gets busted, it's gonna be transgender persons kid busted for pot. And the only way that we can change that in my submission to you is to work hard at being good. Citizens work hard at being good. Parents work hard [00:31:00] in our jobs and, um, uh, realise that the media attention is always going to be on us. And when that spotlight does come on us, we want to make sure that we're behaving well because, as we all know, the images of trans people are not all good. And we want to make sure that the media has good ones. And we achieve that by being good. Trans people. Thank you for your time, people. [00:31:30] No, I just really want to reinforce what Kelly is saying. You know, it's really up to us on how we portray ourselves in the media, because, um, when you undertake media training, you're taught that the media wants something from you, and whatever you give the media is what they're going to report. So, you know, it's up to us to really change that image. [00:32:00] Um, and yeah, and really want to reinforce Kelly's comments on being good at what you do. Um, and just being really good people, Um and, you know, really worthwhile contributors to society. You know, um, whether that's, um, working on on on on your career, working on your education, um, or just working on yourself and looking inside yourself [00:32:30] to really sort of find where you fit in this world, you know? And yeah, just just stay awesome. Mm. Ok, thank you. Um, something I should have said earlier. We're gonna open the floor up now for questions. If people don't want their question to be in the recording of the session, can you flag that and we'll have, um we have control over that, um, second thing I realised I don't have a clock or a time piece, and I can't see one in this room. So I'm wondering if someone who has [00:33:00] one, thank you very much. Thank you. So we have 15 minutes now for questions to make sure we have as much time as possible for as many people as possible to contribute. I want to encourage people to be quite tight with their questions or comments. Um, rather than more, um, exploratory with their questions or comments. So we'll open the floor now for questions. I actually have quite a lot to say on this, uh, on this matter just to, um [00:33:30] counter a a point that is made in regards to what you tell the media is what they report. An incident that I that that involved me. When I was in the in the army years ago, there was a big exercise in the central North island and I was a damage control officer. It's part of the exercise, um, soldiers ended up in a field of, uh, of boats on, um, on loch and bus station. Uh, it was a paddock that we were supposed to stay out of. Unfortunately, the guys dropped out of an aeroplane. Um, landed in this, uh, in this [00:34:00] paddock and some moron got in this mog and drove through the paddock to pick them up in the in the middle of it. So there was a There was a significant amount of what appeared to be a significant amount of damage to to the crop. Um, that the manager came to us and said, Hey, you know, you're bugger up here. Um, the media laps on the fact that there was an issue and reported that night. Um, before I was involved in the investigation, uh, the the media reported right straight away for product. Um, for my publication that [00:34:30] night that there was a major incident that was gonna cost the defence force thousands. Um, I took a helicopter flight across the paddock with the manager. We agreed on, um, issues such as the width of the tyre tracks. Two tyre tracks per vehicle. Uh, the length of the tracks in and out of the thing where X amount of stuff we count the square metres, the yield per metre, and it came to about 380 odd dollars. I think at the end of the day, [00:35:00] I reported that I was encouraged to report that directly to that same reporter. Um, that well, after I've done the investigation, we'd come to the settlement, and that did not get reported at all. It did not suit the agenda that that reporter or his editor wished to present in in his particular, um, publication. Um, I think the [00:35:30] issues for us and and all the points that are raised are are are good points II, I agree. But I think there's a There's a real deep underlying issue that doesn't just affect, um, transgender. But it really affects all marginalised, um, groups of people within, within our society. And, um, I it is it is my belief that that stems right back to Hank number eight and and his booting [00:36:00] out Catholicism and starting off um anglicism and not shooting too many of the people of that era, uh, gave rise to the Puritans and and the pilgrims. Uh, we ended up with that fundamentalist Protestantism that found that it didn't have a place in in England at the time, served in the UK in the east coast of America. And in that in that form of Protestantism, where [00:36:30] they elected their pastors or their their leaders within their organisation, they democratised religion if you like. It's not democracy, but they democratised it if you can pick up the the subtle a subtle difference in in that definition. And it was that basis of democracy that formed the thinking behind the formation of of America. And it's that model [00:37:00] of democracy and everything else that has come with the Protestant Protestant movement, the the the freedom of the great thinkers, Newton and the like to open their minds to the and create the Industrial Revolution and all of the constructs that have flowed through from that part of which is the media. And we now can I just pause you for a moment? I just want to let other people in the room have a chance to ask questions, too. Did you have one question At this point, you want to ask, [00:37:30] is it? And if there's, we'll come back to you for sure. Is there anyone else in the room who has any questions? I would like to, if that's possible to you. And you want to say awesome thoughts and ideas from from both of you. Thank you very much. Um, my question is, uh, more about, um, how I put this, uh, so I want to I'd like to, um if there is an opportunity for me to get involved with the media, I would like [00:38:00] to say it, but one of the reasons I would I I am I'm terrified of being in the media is because, um, the media is so consistently misgender people, um, uses the wrong, uh, pronouns. Um uses their own assumptions, things like that. And it seems to be so, um, it it covers the entire industry that it seems that it's more it's not. Um, it's not extent, but something bigger than that. So my question is, how can we improve the state of the media to correctly [00:38:30] gender people, for example, or any ideas that if I can answer that, I think it's largely to do with, uh, relationships with the media. And I mean, I can say I've never been mis gendered. Uh, I've been quoted many times, uh, because I'm working in a smallish town, um, doing reasonably high profile cases. It means that there probably wouldn't be a week that would go by without my having something in the newspaper. And [00:39:00] it never happens. Why? Because I've got good relationships with them. They know that I've got the never ending bag of chops to throw out, throw their way and they wouldn't bloody dare. But I want to just like they wouldn't dare because they would know that if they pissed me off, then they would no longer be getting the chops. And, uh and I just want to make this point. Um, she was talking about more people standing up, [00:39:30] but I actually think that the trans community there are too many people wanting to stand up and spout their opinions. And there are all people who are actually doing work. So just standing up, saying, I'm Trans, I've got something to say. Um, my advice would be Forgive me, Um, don't say anything and keep away from the media. But if you're doing something which is worthy and which you want to which which attracts media [00:40:00] attention. Well, that's story. Or if you've got something like the Trans prisoners issue, which I've been working on for a while, where unfortunately and I don't want publicity. But I wanted publicity for that. And so the point that I'm trying to make is, uh, just because you're Trans. And just because you've got something to say, that's no reason to go anywhere near a reporter. That's a good reason to avoid reporters like the plague. Um, if [00:40:30] you've got something that you're doing and that you want publicity for, then seek the media out. But remember, you're giving them something, and if you give them something, then you should be able to establish a relationship where they are going to treat you with respect. But if it's just, you know, I'm transgender and I want to, um, speak about this, well, then you're probably not going to be. The media is going to go. Oh, he's just another publicity seeker, and they're not going to sort of take a particular care. [00:41:00] And when 60 minutes, you know, cracked me down, got me in a corner of the Marriage Equality Select Committee. Um, they had courted me for so long. They were so interested in the story that the last thing they wanted to do was piss me off. And so that meant that, for example, they didn't dare ask about my surgical status. They didn't dare ask what my former name was. They didn't actually ask to see another photo of me and and hoped that, [00:41:30] uh, I might allow them to run that. But I said no and that was OK. They were fine with that. Why? Because I had something good and juicy to give them. And that was the Trans Prisoner story. So keep away from reporters. Unless you've got something that they want and and when it comes to, uh, giving them that thing, give it to them on your terms. Don't just throw it out there because you want to make sure that they're buying it off you. And the price that you want [00:42:00] them to pay is respect. And that respect is don't ask about my wedding tackle. Don't ask about my name. Don't ask about you know that kind of thing. Sorry. If that was a long answer Did you have anything you wanted to add to that? She's got me on remote control. Thank you both for both of what you've said. And, uh, yeah, I was [00:42:30] watching something the other night on in, in, in, in to. And one of the good things about that programme was it talked to the with their families, with their parents, with people who love them for whatever reason. And then it showed you, You know that Miss night, You know, with all the spas and everything. But you knew that there was something more than that. And that was the big thing for somebody who was watching me [00:43:00] and said, Oh, look, they do that. They do gardens, they work, they do this and that. And I and I said, What? What did you think they did? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, if I do it, it's I promise you. But within that there seem to be, and I'm I'm sure it's not always a fairly good family environment for them to actually come through. Now I know it doesn't happen at all. I know it can happen with some Maori families where it's good, but I know [00:43:30] with some Maori family it's not, um, but sometimes for those people, when they come to a New Zealand. They don't have the same if you like, um, family structure behind them. The jobs they do are in factories often, and they do this so their life becomes very drab to make up for that on Saturday night, all the slap goes on, you know, and it's also having an understanding of that, [00:44:00] but also knowing that that's not the only way to live. And I think that's where the education actually does come with. What you're both saying is that they can have another life in this country. But it does take work for them for those ones, because many of them come up with not the best English, I mean. And I grew up with grandparents who didn't speak English, so I know what that's like. Um, they also have come with a dream here to try and improve their lives. [00:44:30] They're also sending money back home, and we did that in Maori. Them a lot, too. So often you don't have the necessarily qualifications, and I'm talking about this in general. I'm using it in very broad terms, but I think they still have a right to be there. That's what I'm saying, And if in another generation we can come through this to get to where you people are and then I hope that that will really happen. So thank you both [00:45:00] for what you have shared with us today. Thank you. Can I make a quick point? I would like to make that comment. I. I felt that the child's privacy was destroyed. Um, and it would take an awful lot to convince me that it was worth doing. Um, and the media generally, I mean, talking about Children particularly, um, don't respect. There's not even a proper [00:45:30] process for for protecting people's privacy. Um, and I'm interested to know what we think about that. I mean, you can evaluate the whole story as positive or negative from the point of view of the trans community. But in terms of the child I, I think there's every chance that the damage it could do is irreparable. If if I can speak to that, firstly I think that it's, [00:46:00] I mean, I don't want to get too much into the rights and wrongs of it, but it's generated a AAA really good conversation. But I will say this if you start looking at. Sort of, You know, the numerous Trans 101 documents which are out there teaching people just the basic etiquette. And one of those things is never out of people. You don't do it. You know I don't. You know, you don't say. Oh, this is my friend. She's post do or this is my friend. She's [00:46:30] Trans just and And I would have thought and, you know, I don't want to sort of starting. I would have thought that out in your child. Um, uh, in the national media, even though it might have generated a fascinating and perhaps worthy conversation, I think you might be right. There's a consequence to that. And, um, I just think that, you know, nobody should be outed except when they're big enough and ugly enough to be able to do it themselves. So I suppose I have to agree with you down the back there. [00:47:00] Yeah, I would definitely agree with you there That, um you know, um, this child will, um, have to live with this for the rest of their life. Um, I'm not 100% sure. If this child was actually named. He's been named in the media and certainly on the gay. The gay press. The name is on the interweb. Saw him on the or what? I'm not sure. What [00:47:30] story exactly was we sort of sat there, said privacy and moved on. Basically, um I mean, there comes a point where I feel you could at least so stop yourself from your, um Yeah, yeah, yeah. And And, you know, that comes down to the media. Really? Whether or not they actually, um, have the conscience to be able to protect this child, because at the end of the day, who [00:48:00] gives a fuck if this child is trans or not? Um, you know, this child is going to have to live with this for the rest of their life. You know, um, they may even have to choose a different name to really get away from it, you know? And that's just unnecessary hurt and angst. And that's just what the media does. Really. They really don't give a fuck about who they hurt. Um, what they say as long as the story gets out there, I mean, yes, there has been sort [00:48:30] of positive implications Where, um it is finally actually being discussed. You know, the the real issues are being discussed. But, um, it's really sad that this child has actually, um is actually going to have to look at this. I think if I could sum it up, let me nail my own colours to my own mast. And by God, if anybody else does it for me, um, they might find that they I'm waiting [00:49:00] for them when they come down. We are being on the end of our time. Um, I think it's a beautiful place to eat, actually. Um, and I'd like to thank both of you for sharing so generally with us. Yeah, thank you very much.

IRN: 768
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_conference_session_6.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004271
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089565
TITLE: Session 6 - Beyond conference
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Kevin Haunui; Merv Ransom; Rangimoana Taylor; Shelley Te Waiariki Howard
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Beyond conference (2013); Black Power; C. L. I. T Fest Wellington 2013; Cherise Witehira; Christianity; Elizabeth Kerekere; Kevin Haunui; Kim Mcbreen; Merv Ransom; Māori; OverWatch (NZ Defence Force); Rangimoana Taylor; The Queer Avengers (Wellington); Tīwhanawhana; Wellington; Wellington High School; colonisation; diversity; identity; sexuality; takatāpui
DATE: 12 October 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington High School, 251-281 Taranaki Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the session: Takaktāpui perspectives.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: [00:00:30] they will hold on to too, doctor. Or [00:01:00] then I go to [00:01:30] we here to me here tomorrow. No money, heart and mind to fight you and know who I got. No, [00:02:00] no. One of the things killed everybody. Now take a breath Can do this. OK, One of the things in being in this house, which is probably different from any other room that you're in it is customary or it is traditional to acknowledge the house because the Lord of the [00:02:30] Forest was said to be the ones who separated earth and sky. And so it was to give shelter. And so we acknowledged the house. Then I go outside to acknowledge the separation of earth and sky, to acknowledge the elements of male and female and then to acknowledge the elements that are here today. All of all, sorry, the people who have passed on the other thing on this is I say [00:03:00] that those males who find other males attractive the wa wa for those women to find other women attractive and for those people who are intersects with all the love that we give to them and also [00:03:30] to those who have by their own grace decided what is the right sexual orientation for them? Whether it is from a male to female or female to male, they have made informed decisions. And so we would like to talk about it. Maybe a little bit later on. Open up this discussion [00:04:00] for all of us. Please don't be afraid of arguments in Maori. We say to argue is good but argue the point, not the person. Argue the point. OK, so Kilda, ta be great! Kilda is to be alive to have energy And I'm sure you all got it here. So I'm gonna say Kilda and I want you all to say Kilda, back after three Kelda. 123 [00:04:30] Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no! Come on! Hey! Hey! So I'm gonna kill her and you're going kill that! OK, so this time off the fuck that might help the fuck you and fuck! Oh, OK [00:05:00] thing with some of these sessions that sometimes you get a bit of a surprise. This is about Yeah, [00:05:30] that [00:06:00] that last minute is to say we form an alliance. We hope to form an alliance with you to bring us together. Let the things begin told [00:06:30] me that you got to, um, Kevin home. You talk to anyone? Uh, Kevin, Home is my name. Uh, my, uh, in the programme, I've sent my waka, uh um hotel, uh, which means I come from quite a number of, uh, different. Uh, but [00:07:00] my primary, um, is at a place called, um which is, uh, by the, uh, by Portuguese. So on the eastern Bay, that's my father's, um, and my, um, which is called, uh, model is the name of the on my mother's side. Um, my primary, uh uh, [00:07:30] which is at a little place called which is just down the road from, um But our is at a place called, uh which is between, And so I come from, uh uh um and so [00:08:00] that's a little bit of that in me today. I'm going to talk about, uh, a group called and the reason I want to talk about this group called because I think it offers some, um, interesting, uh, information about how a community group of, uh, here in Wellington have have come together and the reasons why they've come [00:08:30] together, Uh, and so I'm going to talk to you a little bit about the the history of that. So is the name of the the community group. It was formed in 2001, and it was formed in response to the Gay Games, which was going to be held in Sydney in 2002. And the reason why this group started to come together was because this [00:09:00] was an international event that was gay, lesbian ta ta. Which is going to be held in our part of the the world. And so it was an opportunity, um, for, uh, what we thought was Maori in particular here in in to to go to Sydney. And then when we thought about that, we discovered well, you know, [00:09:30] when we get together as a we have a, uh we need to have an identity and we need to be armed. A few things just in case. Um, we asked to respond as Maori uh, in Sydney. So the things that we then started to do was actually to to learn some we thought, Oh, well, we better learn some action songs and stuff like that. [00:10:00] Um, so that, um so that we can, uh you know fulfil our role as a as a over in as a group over in Sydney. So that was the beginning of this group of people coming together primarily led by, um, uh, a an activist, uh, many of whom you know, her name is Elizabeth. She, um, [00:10:30] was one of the key figures here in Wellington as a co leader of team Wellington that, um, was taking a team to to Sydney. And so she through her networks and strong networks and in the particularly in the lesbian, Um, um, community started to bring together, uh, this group around this this of getting together as Maori [00:11:00] because what we wanted to do was actually also identify to the gay and lesbian world that was out there in Sydney. That there was another, uh, there was that there was this group from who were and we did things slightly different. So we wanted to make sure that people knew that, Yes, we were part of this general grouping, but we also had our own unique, um, ways [00:11:30] of identifying ourselves. And, of course, what we drew on was our culture to to to strengthen, um and give us a little bit of guidance even though we weren't necessarily experts. Uh, in, um, Maori knowledge. We knew little bits and pieces, but we did know some key values around how to interact with each other. [00:12:00] What we enjoyed, uh, and they gave us some sense of purpose around around coming together as a group. So is the name of the proverb that we take our name from and or is uh, is, uh, people with the That's a That's [00:12:30] the curve. So it's actually the Yeah, it's it's it describes the ark on the on the So the rainbow we started to translate as a rainbow is forming in the sky. And so what? That was, uh, a metaphor around was a community group or a group of us starting to form together as a unique [00:13:00] rainbow community as part of the wider rainbow community. Anyway, that's that's why I tell it somebody else won't say it in another way. The key things about but, um was because we all were pretty serious and, oh, no, we can't have that name. You can't have just it's got to be something really serious. It describes what it does, but actually it does describe what we do, but just in a different way, right? So it's not the active group called blah, blah, blah. It's just called [00:13:30] now has been around since that time, and it has been to quite a few, um, events, if you like. So the first Asia Pacific Games, which was held in Melbourne, there's a small group of us there, and we performed at, uh in Melbourne. And in fact, there was a quite a large group of us that went to Sydney over maybe 30 or 40 people. All knew these, um that, um we had [00:14:00] for Sydney. But what it also did was, of course, we also started to get into some conflict with our own culture and around songs around permissions around what we could sing, perhaps. Oh, no, you can't do that because that belongs to so we can't do that. So what we started to do was to write our own music and to write our own stories or to tell our own stories. So the the [00:14:30] um as started to get more organised around what sort of group this is. What is our vision? What are we looking to do? We came up with three sort of key points was to build our community. So that community is not just around community. It was the extended community, so build within build outside that as well connected all together. The second [00:15:00] thing was to tell our stories. And of course, invisibility is one of the greatest things that we have to combat. So in order to let people know who you are, you have to tell them stories. So that was one of our key aims. Was to be able to tell our stories. However, we chose to tell them so whether it was through song, whether it was through verse, poetry, uh, acting or just being [00:15:30] a part of the community and interacting that was part of our telling our stories. The third thing that we wanted to do was to leave a legacy, and we wanted that legacy for other or for Maori, who weren't quite sure where they found they could fit themselves, that there was a group like us that, um, did some things and maybe that might be a choice [00:16:00] for them as well. So those were the three key aims of different one of them, and you probably already. So, um, I think the key one of the key things for this conference, perhaps, is if you think about the rainbow forming in the sky, I sort of think about [00:16:30] the purpose of this conference being, you know, what's after such and such? Or in fact, I've forgotten what the purpose is. But never mind. I'll make up my own story. Um, the what I wanted to say was that the for me and so this is my own personal view is not the destination. It's the It's part of the the journey to the bigger reason. And so when I think about [00:17:00] the rainbow forming in the sky, I see the sky as the the big reason and that we're all part of that sky and that the rainbow is just one aspect of their diversity within the sky. But it it it describes what I think is important, Um, in terms of my own personal journey. As I say, that's my personal view. So I don't think it's the I don't think it's a destination being [00:17:30] Taku in itself, but it's really important to me because I identify as because it gives me a place that I'm grounded and comfortable with being, um, who I am culturally and who I am sexually and who I am generally gender wise, things like that. Um there may be a few other things that I could mention, um [00:18:00] such as, you know, something to think about. How has this group managed to exist for 10 years and still is quite strong? What is it that has has kept us together? And it's changed in terms of the dynamic of this group quite considerably. In the beginning, we were, uh, predominantly, uh, lesbian populated. [00:18:30] Now, in fact, it's the opposite. Uh, we've got maybe an equal balance of gay men and, uh, trains trains, maybe slowly, but, uh but it's it's interesting. We've gone through some different dynamics and there've been some arguments along the way. We all have arguments along the way, but, um, but I, I find that really interesting. How has this group [00:19:00] managed to exist? For 10 years, we've been involved with a lot of community events for a long time. In those 10 years out in the square, when it was a new town, right until it came to Civic Square here in the city um, civil Union Bill. Um, we composed a song when the Destiny Church had its enough is enough march in response to that, [00:19:30] because there are lots of things that, uh, need to that we need to combat, whether it's an internalised, um or is it internalised? Whether it's fighting with our own farmer, who might try to ostracise or deny that we exist, or whether it's fighting with our own gas? Be community to say. But we do exist, and we do things in a different way. Those those battles, If you like to [00:20:00] say, call it that those battles still continue. Some of them are just a reminder that we just need to keep on reminding and be strong about where we are grounded and why. It's important that we are all respectful of that in some way, even though we may not know how to how to how to achieve, um, respecting that in a way which others others recognise. I don't know what I've just said there, but doesn't [00:20:30] anyway, um, I'll finish at this point. If you do want to come along to. It's not exclusively for Maori, although we do have a which we try and and, um, work to, uh, in the Maori. Um, for example, if we do get invited to events, generally speaking, we invite the organisers to come along and we talk to them because we want [00:21:00] to find out what's what's it about. And do we agree with this? And do we have any questions? But that face to face thing is really important. Um, but we meet, uh, every Tuesday night at the New Zealand prostitutes' collective 6:30 p. m. It's a pretty laid back session. Um, come along. You're quite welcome to good voices are always good. Bad voices are tolerated, but that's a but, uh yeah, I'll finish. I'll [00:21:30] finish now. Uh, um uh um [00:22:00] I'm going to sing a song and there's you might see people get up there from as well. It's a song that was written in response to, um the enough is enough, um, March. And when I talk about the fact that we I think that we're part of the biggest guy, there are metaphors within that that song that that talk about the characteristics of a person [00:22:30] and it's not exclusive to being, but it, uh but it what it is trying to do is say, um um, these are these are characteristics of all things that we hold dear I think and And we're part of that, too. And so when they were doing that enough, there's enough sort of. And what I got from that because I wrote it was that, um I saw a whole lot of Maori [00:23:00] there, Uh, and I think, Oh, that makes me sort of feel like I'm excluded or stuff like that. And I didn't I didn't agree with that. And so this is a song that came as a response? Not. Why not? You might not just say that. No, [00:23:30] I Yeah, [00:24:00] Yeah, [00:24:30] [00:25:00] [00:25:30] [00:26:00] me too. [00:26:30] [00:27:00] [00:27:30] Yeah. No. Yeah. Why? Yeah. Um [00:28:00] um So, um, came down from and of course, now the area and also in which is the area. Um, I heard the sad news. I think it was about a week ago. I don't know if you've met Auntie White, but she was like a or, you know, and I'm really sad to hear that she's left [00:28:30] us now. Um, the other tributes I wanted to make is I think my worry is that with with youth, we forget how hard it's been. So like in the 85 you know, law reform days, that it's easier for us now because of our who have done the work beforehand. Um, and also Carmen, who would have heard of Carmen? Chrissy We particularly in the Wellington area, um, [00:29:00] in the Auckland area. Um, and there's these places that back in the day, um, Carmen's coffee lounge, um, I heard of the exotic, the balcony, the evergreen and I had no idea, You know, that all because all that we heard about was like there was pound and, um, like, now there's the ivy, but they only exist because of, you know, the our [00:29:30] brothers and sisters who have done their ground work earlier. I got, um, and I did some research, um, the books in my bag, but about Maori sexualities, and I don't think it can be understated the effect that Christianity and colonisation has had on, um, even the word is not the same [00:30:00] as it might have meant back in the day. And I think it was 18. 35. So even pre pre treaty, um, I just thought I'd mention a few personal notes because, um I don't know if, um, the guys in here might have had their father wanted them to be an all black, you know? And it was the thing that you were meant to aspire to. I don't think that's unique to Maori, but, um, so when that doesn't happen, And I think the other thing is, um, another [00:30:30] complication I had grown up was that if you've got who are black power or a mongrel mob trying to come out to those uncles Um, yeah, I guess there's no words that can describe how how difficult that kind of was because they want to acknowledge that your family. But if you're not kind of grow enough, you know, it's like, What are you Who are you? You know, you're not one of us. And, um, the other complication [00:31:00] is when you're the oldest male, there's this, um, responsibilities placed on you about that. You will continue the name and so forth. So you also have the disappointment, especially of your father. You know, your grandfathers and uncles that you're not going to contribute to that family life. And I just think, Well, I didn't, you know, one day, wake up and thought I'd conspire, you know, against you and, um, purposely [00:31:30] not have Children. Um, And when I came out to mum, I was about 18. She was worried that I was gonna be, um you know, that I'd get the best. And then I thought, surely, Mum, you know, like, all the fights I've seen my uncles, and I think I'll be all right, you know? But I remember she had real, um, concerns about that. But once you've seen a few uncles in action, it'll be all right. Um, the other thing is, um, my oldest uncle identified as [00:32:00] gay, And, um, it wasn't until he died that all the brothers suddenly, um, thought, Oh, now we're stressed, You know that we actually cared about you, and it was too late by then. And I remember one uncle even said was telling my dead uncle off for, um, making him cry. Finally, I thought that's your fault. You know, you didn't acknowledge your older brother, they just couldn't stand it. That the family representative was was gay. And, um, I thought, well, [00:32:30] too late now, so we don't really talk about about that because they're still not receptive. to being Maori. Being is not a good look, especially if you, um, to a signatory of the treaty. And you're trying to represent your, um, iwis, um, Treaty of Waitangi claim. So they didn't want the older brother at the forefront because he was, [00:33:00] um and I know this might sound a bit, but it's a vivid memory I have of a relationship I had with the father and, um, yeah, he put petrol in the car and he pressed full, and I was about 38 and I was like, I have never, ever, ever, ever from a background ever seen anyone push full on the on the thing, you know? And I was like, Holy shit, you know, it's like [00:33:30] I'm from a whole another world because he was raised, um, conservative, um, Christian style. So it was a real, um, eye opener as to how cultures can, I guess, collide in a relationship when you haven't lived in each other's world. So once put twice. So we will be very cautious in the future. Um, also, um, these are the sources if [00:34:00] you wanted to, because that's my, um, world view on things, but there's the uh, trust. The other book that I looked at was reclaiming the past to inform the future and, um, views of Maori sexuality, which is by Clive and Jessica Hutchins. There's also a book on by. He has a a little section there on homosexuality and, um, [00:34:30] I I wanted to end with because I went to this. Who in my greatest concern is that when we get or if you're not considered Maori enough or rainbow enough, that, to me is a real, um, it's a wrong basically, because I think we need to be, you know, 2013 enough, But these days to genuinely be inclusive rather than, like I said, you're not Maori enough [00:35:00] or you're not rainbow enough and discriminate against their own. Yeah, I what? Our name [00:35:30] called England. [00:36:00] Um, my name is Kim. Um, I prepare to talk. I'm, um I guess I'm, uh right now, I'm kinda pissed off and upset. Um, I'm gonna I'm gonna read my talk anyway, cos it kind of talks to some of the stuff that I'm upset about. Um, and maybe we can have a quarter at some point afterwards. Um, so the stuff I'm going to talk about today is kind of a follow on from some stuff that I talked about at clip [00:36:30] fest a couple of months ago. And if you're interested, I got a small voice. Tell, um if you can't hear me, can you wave out? OK, um, if you want to hear where this quarter, it all started, um, you can look on my blog, which is, um, and it's got my talk from clip fest. Um, I wanna start by talking about my background. Um, so I was born a few years back. Um, [00:37:00] and I was given out for adoption when I was born. Um, as I said in my my mother's my father's from. But my adoptive parents who were Parker were guaranteed that I I was fully park. Um, and that that guarantee that they were given meant that when I was growing up, I had pretty much no access to who I was and how I relate to this. Um, I've since [00:37:30] met my father, and he is really undeniably not, um So earlier this year, I talked to my birth mother about it, and I asked her if she knew that he was Maori, and she said that she didn't know and that she hadn't really thought about it. And we keep talking. And as we kept talking, it became clear to me that she saw my father as no. And when you grow up in a culture that doesn't talk about culture [00:38:00] where whiteness is normal, then even though my father is brown in a way that people aren't brown, she just assumed that he was white, just like all the other non white people she knew. She was from West Auckland. Um, she had lots of we talked about her. She had lots of non white friends that she just assumed were, and none of that's her fault. That's what white culture is. Um, [00:38:30] white culture makes whiteness normal and invisible. It means that we understand everything that's not obviously different or exotic, as normal and therefore is white. And that really hurts people because we feel like we have to perform to be recognised as something other than white, and that pushes us to extremes on a spectrum. And for Maori, especially, [00:39:00] that's really dangerous because we always get the shitty end of any dichotomy. I'm sure my mother would have recognised my father as Maori if he had acted violently or angrily. Um, if he had seemed poor and uneducated but because he came across as a nice, well, well spoken young man, she recognised him as white like her. Now I'm sure that you will know this, Um especially in relation to queerness like I. I know that. [00:39:30] Yeah. We all know unless you announce your sexuality in some way, everyone assumes that you're heterosexual. So if you know it, why am I talking about it? So I got asked to speak on this panel, which is called Takata Perspectives. And the first thing I noticed about the programme is that there's no panel called White People perspectives and there's pretty much never a panel called white perspectives on anything because the word that we tend to use for white per perspectives is reality. [00:40:00] I, I have an opinion on heaps of the stuff on the programme. I have an opinion on what should be on the programme. Um but instead I'm talking about Takata perspectives and I actually don't really know what that means. Um, so I wanted to start by reminding you about whiteness and culture But just because you don't notice it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It exists. We're all soaking in it. And it isn't just the way things are. [00:40:30] And the invisibility of that is really damaging The silo and the sidelining of Maori realities into perspectives is a safe way for you all to learn about our lives. But it's not that safe for us. Um, I wanna talk a little bit about the word. Um, so this panel is called Takata perspective. For the record, I don't identify as Tata. Um, it's [00:41:00] a word that I'm I'm really interested in, and I'm I really enjoy hearing y'all talk about the word. Um, but it's not a word that I've yet been convinced that I need to use. Um, it's a label that seems to resonate more with people who live in the city. Um, rather than provincial and rural people. Um, yeah, and I'd love to talk to you at another time. About about what you get out of the woods. Um, the reason that I don't identify as Tata [00:41:30] is the same reason that I don't like talking about queer and Maori communities, which is something that I often hear, um, at clip fest, I talked about how our creation traditions include gender and sexual diversity, and that that inclusion reflects how our considered that diversity to be, which is normal. Um, and I've talked about how colonisation brought homophobia and fixed binary gender roles in a culture that's based [00:42:00] on. I don't think we need a word for people who aren't heterosexual. I don't feel a need to set myself apart from my heterosexual pheno. What I do see is useful about the term is in acknowledging that the queer scene is otherwise dominated by, um, and I wonder if that's why it seems to be used more by people living in the city. So how does this come back to what I was saying about queering Maori communities? [00:42:30] Um, my understanding of the reason the L GP TT, i et cetera community started using the term queer. Um, it was partly about taking away an insult that gets used against us, but it's also partly about the meaning of queer, as in queering the pitch. So, um, you know it means to to spoil or disrupt. If is already inclusive of gender and [00:43:00] sexual diversity, then it doesn't need that sort of query. Any query in the sense of disruption happened with colonisation and with the introduction of Western hang ups. If there are Maori communities that aren't inclusive and and we know that there are what those communities need isn't they need putting, right. They need straightening. So it sounds like I'm playing [00:43:30] with language. Um, but for me, this is actually really important because the strategies we use in Maori communities where homophobia has become normal should be really different from the strategies used in homophobic communities. The problem in our communities is that sexual oppression is part of our culture. So that culture needs to get messed with. It needs to be queered, whereas the problem in Maori communities is that our culture has already been messed with [00:44:00] by colonisation and we need to return to Maori philosophies. So queer is a term for me. It works for but when we use it for Maori communities, we're making colonisation invisible. And when we use it for everyone, no matter what ethnicity or culture you're from, then we're again privileging as normal and our culture is invisible. So I guess that's what I'm talking about. um in [00:44:30] general and visibility I haven't read reread this part of my talk since since talking with other people. So I wrote this challenge and I wanted to put a clip for you, so I'm not sure how relevant it is right now. Um, the challenge was to support and to prioritise indigenous cultures and the answer to how you do that starts with getting Maori organisers and Maori advisor. When you put together programmes [00:45:00] so you don't put together a programme and then look for Maori to speak on your panels, you put together a programme that that reflects what Maori want to speak about and what we want to hear about. Um for this I appreciate the visibility and the centrality of trans people and and trans issues in this programme and I assume that that came out of the connections and relationships with the trans community. That's what needs to happen to make it safe for people [00:45:30] from any marginalised community to participate and to contribute. We need commitment. What? I mean specifically, by a commitment, um, I mean building genuine reciprocal relationships. That doesn't mean just asking people to get involved in your project. That means supporting their project Maori. Seeing as I'm talking about the perspectives panel, Maori have a long [00:46:00] history of generosity towards other people's projects. We have a long history of giving our time and knowledge to other people's stuff. Many of the people on this panel are stretched really thin on all the projects that we've been asked to support. This country is literally built on Maori generosity and I want to know how you're paying it back. If you and your [00:46:30] don't have genuine connections with Maori communities, make that your priority more than organising AAA Queer Festival or anything like that, make those relationships your priority. You have all the time in the world to show us that you are genuinely interested in supporting us on things that matter to us. And I look forward to seeing that happen myself. [00:47:00] Nicky Taylor. Um, now I personally don't actually identify as, [00:47:30] um I never have and most probably never will, um uh, to me is a It is, um uh, the use of the word has become more prevalent since the 19 eighties, and I believe that it's because, uh, a lot of urban Maori were, uh, Maori were trying to find a cultural identity within the urban environment when a lot of their cultural identity was [00:48:00] being lost. And a lot of people actually don't realise that that's why the black power was started. Um, the black power was actually recognised that, uh, Maori culture was being lost in the urban areas, and the black power was started to bring a lot of the Maori culture back into urban areas because a lot of Maori were losing their language, losing their culture. Um, and that was from a Maori perspective. Now they're working off the perspective of making money, and, um, they're [00:48:30] doing it all in the wrong ways. And they've lost a lot of their, um, respect within a lot of the communities because of that. Um, but yeah, just expelling them up there. But what I really want to talk about today is a love story. Um, and, um and this was really the origin of the word. Ok, um was the daughter of a chief, uh from who lived on [00:49:00] the shores of Lake. Um She met a from island named and became her lover, um, and was the bastardised child of the chief's wife So he was not her social equal. Um, and, uh, Maori culture. Uh, it was very class. Um, and if you, uh that's why there was a lot of, um For some, [00:49:30] there were a lot of, um, inter family relationships that happened just to keep the bloodline going, Um, and, well, because was not, uh, was social equal. Uh, her father, uh, banned her from seeing her. Uh, she wasn't allowed to use any to go and see him out on Macoy Island. So what she done, uh, she swam the 3. 2 kilometres out to island. Um, and she was only guided by the sound [00:50:00] of Titan guy's flute. Um, playing his love song to, um And in the original story, I think you mentioned it, which was written in 18. 35 where it was written in Maori. And when it was translated, it was found out that actually had a name, Um, a same sex friend. Now, back then, it was actually accepted that their friendship was [00:50:30] a lot more than just a general friendship. You you can't actually say that their relationship was sexual, but, um, their relationship was accepted as more than that of his friendship. Um, and that was, uh, quite reflective, uh, throughout the entire, uh, Maori culture, because, uh, sexual diversity and gender diversity was greatly accepted. Um, were, uh, a lot more accepted back [00:51:00] then, um, prior to colonisation. Um, the only thing that happened was when, uh, the colonisers came through the Pacific Islanders, uh, through the Pacific Islands. They had already been introduced to a lot of, uh, other islands. Uh uh, Like, uh, uh, um, uh, uh, all that kind of stuff. And then they came to, uh and [00:51:30] they'd already known about, uh uh, uh, non gender conforming people within the Pacific island. And then they started, uh, wanted to wipe that up pretty much. Um, but back then, uh, non gender conformity and, uh, diversity was very much accepted in the Maori culture. Um, until colonisation came along. Um, and Christianity, uh, that really made it look a lot more unacceptable. Um, according to the [00:52:00] word of God, um, but the the the story of and, um because was so aggrieved at the way that Tiki was feeling because Tiki was very, very hurt that that had gone off with, um with so uh, actually organised for his younger sister to marry, uh, to comfort him and to be his friend and his wife. [00:52:30] And so that way, uh, could be very happy and still have that connection with, um but And he could still be together and still be in love. Um, now, the the word is to me, um, doesn't necessarily mean queer or gay, but it has been attached to that only because it was recognised that, uh, and, uh, were more than friends. Um, [00:53:00] I personally don't identify with because, um, it's just never been around me. Um, I was never really brought up, uh, around queer communities. Um, I was only really got involved with queer communities. Um uh uh, a few years ago, Really? But apart from that, I've really only lived my life, Um, and tried to really be under the radar a lot. Um, and I'm actually really grateful to be able to share this [00:53:30] with a couple of very good friends of mine. Uh, sitting right there. Um, my boss, actually from work, is here to listen. And my old from down in Christchurch is also here, so I'm very pleased to be able to, um share this side of what I used to do actually with them and also to be able to see a lot of you people, you wonderful people. But and in terms of, um it is, um I suppose, an identity and just like all the other identities. And, [00:54:00] you know, it's something that's more prevalent within Maori communities. But I mean, like any identity, I suppose if you want to identify that way, you can identify that if you really sort of feel that's how you identify, it's up to you if you want to. I personally don't but, um, and we live with the fight [00:54:30] that the ability to do oratory is the right of [00:55:00] the and in a colonised form always meant the leader, the one going out there doing it. It's just the opposite. The runner is to weave out the people and the weaves, the people together. And for me, a a great example of this was with [00:55:30] who wove people together. She didn't care where you were from. She wove them together. So for five or six years after her, after her passing and her going to her ancestors, the weaving was still strong, but for the new even to start we often have to unravel. And so what some of we are talking about today is unravelling some of the weaving that's been done already. [00:56:00] This is an opportunity for us to take part in a discussion. Sometimes it will be just speaking. Sometimes it may be debate. Sometimes it will be Well, tell them 22, [00:56:30] it will go back and forth and then maybe it will not end here because we keep weaving out. It is time for you to take part in the discussion. And believe me, as Maori, we are used to waiting. Welcome to speak to bring your ideas about what you have heard today or questioning. [00:57:00] Speak to us and let us speak to you to [00:57:30] um um But it's the the the corridor that, um, encompasses this, um, conference. Um, I just wanted to share my my, um, view on and being, uh, being Maori woman. Um, actually, I I just wanted to also acknowledge, [00:58:00] um, I had a friend in who was adopted, and when she was adopted, they were two parents were taught in Spanish, just but she was actually Maori, so I can, um yeah. Have a sense of, um, that process that you went through? I think for me, I It's how I I did find myself as changing as I change. And I do like the [00:58:30] because when I speak to people in Maori, that's the that comes to mind. Um, And I suppose I use different terms myself, depending on how I'm feeling and where I am, but, uh, come Oh, well, I came up the top care. [00:59:00] Um, I'm Cassie. And as some of you know, um, I was one of the organisers for, um, I have to thank you to do as much time as I want this time around, but I'm really excited about it coming together. I wanna thank everybody who's come here today, and I think, yeah, like, nobody had to do it. And I think that's a big thing. And so we definitely recognise and appreciate the generosity. Um, that you have the time that you have given to us here today. Um, I also [00:59:30] wanted to kind of discuss something because I I really, really want to um thank um, Kim sitting over there. Um, I found that just such an important important that you put forward. And I think a lot of it sums up a lot of the stuff that has been going on this weekend. And, um, I want to This is me. I'm part speaking for myself and I I'm part speaking for the committee because I'm going to be putting forward [01:00:00] something that the committee has been discussing and that, um a lot of the stuff that has gone down prior to this conference is that the queer Avengers, um, made a decision to exclude someone who was speaking, um, a person of colour who was going to be speaking on a panel on Sunday. And I think this is like a really important key part because we can't just talk about this stuff in theory without thinking about what it means in practise and what has been done in practise. So I guess I just [01:00:30] really want to say, um, I really want to apologise, um, and say sorry from the one of my heart. So, um, the process through which we made that decision was flawed, like it was really flawed. Um, we made a decision that was, um, making a decision on whether or not a person of colour was allowed to speak, and putting it straight like that is kind of like, really, really [01:01:00] not. OK, um, And in that we allowed the process to go That the person who had the problem that came up, um, was white. And the people who made the decision were white. And there was no space for a discussion with people of colour on that. And if they had been in that room and it's a problem that they weren't, then I think that would have gone entirely differently. And there would have been a completely different outcome. So I really wanna apologise personally. [01:01:30] Um, and on behalf of the Privileges Committee, if they're OK with that, I didn't Sorry, I didn't actually get admitted. Um, I really wanna apologise, because I think that it has sent a really clear message that, um, people of colour are not able to speak, and they're not able to voice any, um, concerns of racism, which are really, really important and valid concerns. And yeah, I want to say I'm sorry. That message has been sent, [01:02:00] but I don't want it to be like, Oh, I'm sorry. You're offended because that's not what I'm trying to say here. Uh, I just want to really recognise and acknowledge the hurt that has been caused there. And, yeah, thank you for the people who showed up and and spoke with us and spoke with me and are here speaking today, and it really means a huge lot. And I know personally, I want to go away and do a whole bunch of bunch of thinking and it's been Yeah, just thank you. Um, OK, [01:02:30] OK, can I, um can I ask a question to you? Um, is there gonna be like, what actions are actually happening from that after the apology? Is there like, what address? You know, will the committee get together and decide, You know, some concrete action so that that person has a chance to speak maybe to the group during this gathering or acknowledge like what they want to do with that [01:03:00] did agree, uh, that that that apology was like the committee's committee's decision. And we agreed that, uh, that we would, um, meet with, um, the caucus that's formed that the committee would meet with the with the caucus that's formed and, um talk, talk it through on the basis of that. That statement and that apology. Um, so yeah, that's, um that's the commitment we've made. Um, So if people want to take us up on that, um, yeah, there'll be space to do it, Um, during the weekend. Um, the specific [01:03:30] outcome in the action is that, um yeah, we want to have a discussion and probably with the people involved as to whether they would still be interested in speaking, because we're really aware that how it's gone about now are kind of We don't want it to be like a back pedalling. OK, you can come in and then it's some kind of token, a weird symbol. So what we wanna do is, uh, people want to come and speak because the process was flawed. I believe the outcome and [01:04:00] the decision made from that was flawed. So we don't agree with that, that, um, excluding someone from speaking because that whole the decision making wasn't a problem that makes sense. So we what? We're wondering whether or not that's something is open, and we can talk about it here, or we can talk about it wherever, Um, but I just wanted to publicly kind of say I can I just ask, why is it raised in this forum? I I because I don't [01:04:30] know what what the issue was. I suppose I was coming to a conversation about a particular coat hopper. But something's happened that I don't know anything about that I don't actually need to. Um, we did have a bit of a discussion at the very start when we had everybody in a boat. So I'm sorry to derail the conversation about something. But I did felt like it was very relevant to what had kind of been brought up [01:05:00] in the discussion, and I wanted to put that forward. So sorry, if kind of making it not clear. And there's probably quite a few people here who aren't really going to be on the exact same page just further to that. My understanding is we met as a corporate government that we are going to take up the offer, the tough to workshop, and then we can decide on the engagement from their understanding. [01:05:30] It perhaps I can also lead to that. So it's a question of racism. And so some of the things that, uh Kim talked about and responding to that importantly for the committee, not only how to address that particular issue that's come up, but what does it mean for the future? So its relevance, [01:06:00] in terms of perspective, is that that is still there. So that's and that's a good thing that we talk about it in this forum in this house because that's a that's a place to do it all together. There was a, uh, not necessarily shared by, uh, or discussed with others on the panel. Um, but, um, it was, uh, deliberately left open for that discussion to come in here [01:06:30] because it involved. And so I feel so for some, perhaps this was the place to have. That's why it's been. But I just thought I'd just make it quite clear what it's about. Uh, hello, everybody. My name's Shelley. And, [01:07:00] uh, I identify as Shelley. I'd like to say to Kim, thank you for your words. Touched me deeply. The opinions you expressed, um, echo very much my own feelings from my own personal research and studies. And I'll actually be talking, I think, to some of the issues that you raised, uh, when I'm on the next panel. [01:07:30] I would say that while we have, uh, in the wider society of New Zealand, all manner of if you like, uh, conflict and dealing with issues particularly between Maori and Pakeha. Uh, the the empowerment of Maori and how that appears in the pakeha mind to be a threat in and of itself. Um, again, I'll be sort of relating to how that evolves, Uh, or how I believe that has evolved. Uh, when I speak on my next [01:08:00] in the next forum. Um, but there is a ray of lights. I am involved with a group, uh, in the New Zealand Defence Force and those of you who have probably been gay, uh, do a N, and, um and, um, other articles will have read about the success that, uh, overwash the DF group achieved, um, recently and how that was publicly, Uh, pronounced. [01:08:30] Um, I have some regular contact with, um with Overwatch. I am an ex service person. Um, I spent 20 odd years running around the world, uh, learning about myself and and about people in general. And it became an important part of my journey to finding myself one of the things that, uh that Overwatch and the New Zealand Defence Force as such is assuming is a leadership role. And it has been my opinion [01:09:00] for many years that while the media and public discussion has Jerry talked about the brain drain from New Zealand, I have always disputed that that belief. We have doctors and surgeons, accountants driving taxis, so there's no shortage of intellect and brains in this country, none at all. The problem that we lack [01:09:30] is leadership running through a tonne of patch. Yes, Dr A. 10 times to me, we lack that our in much the way that the democracy that we think we have in our politics has been corrupted. So too has along with that our perception of leadership and I find it comforting. I guess that the New Zealand defence [01:10:00] force has has adopted a very responsible role in terms of its leadership within the wider community of New Zealand and the Overwatch Committee, very much supported by the certainly by the current chief of defence force is all about taking that leadership out to the wider community. The New Zealand Defence force wants to demonstrate that it is all about inclusion. The key about Overwatch is not just about [01:10:30] just about LGBTI community. It is also about racism and about all those other associated issues of marginalisation that affect each and every one of us. And so the New Zealand Defence Force is about proving that diversity is a strength, not a weakness. And they want to bring that word out to the wider community. I'm not sure how they plan to do that, but they are trying to demonstrate it within their own [01:11:00] with their own organisation. Unfortunately, having a bit of a setback recently in, uh in Afghanistan, Um, but they've taken very positive steps in trying to redress those sorts of issues. Certainly within the leadership within the defence force, there is no problems. They have openly gay and lesbian, um, recruits signing on and coming in and being positioned as as, um, as officers in leadership positions within the defence force. [01:11:30] That is, that is, um they're tending to head towards stereotypical roles in that in that particular way. But, um, and support lines are not exactly at teeth arm, uh, responsibilities. The message just, uh, slowly getting down to the lower orders. But there is a hope, I guess, for the way in which, uh, which we can see an example of of bringing people together. [01:12:00] Uh, there's perhaps lessons to be learned from from organisations such as Overwatch and as sort of Kut and some others have alluded to here and the way in which we go about our business, we tend to isolate ourselves into smaller groups or smaller communities without actually reaching out and and and bringing in the more diverse group. And while I understand certainly that there's a reluctance and certain attitudes towards the military as such, I think [01:12:30] it's adult and mature to recognise that the military, as it represents in New Zealand, is not so much about blood and guts and rape and pillage as as we've traditionally seen or perceived warfare. Uh, it is more about a social interaction and representing New Zealand's strategic interests and in positive ways in the way in which they support peace actions and others overseas. The argument about whether [01:13:00] that should be done with force of arms or others of own. But they can bring that back into the community. And I think that, um, you know, stretching out our hands to groups like Overwatch may well bring some, um, some lessons for us to be able to grow and and reach out to our wider community and elsewhere in the country. Do not I have a question for each of the speakers. What's [01:13:30] your vision of an ideal society and what kind of changes might be needed to get there? Yes, this we got or give example of one change that What? What's 11 change you'd like to see, you know, to get to get to where you are, which will be [01:14:00] for me. Uh, what? Most people forget that you live in Polynesia. Aotearoa New Zealand are the largest Polynesian islands in the world. The official name for this island is the the official name for the South is the official name for [01:14:30] the, um, the other little island of the island. Now, if you look at it, it makes sense. The simple reason is the ia a mai actually does look like a stingray. If you're actually high enough in space, it looks like a stingray, which is what the was. The is the Jade Isles. That's where the Greenstone comes from. That is why it is called that [01:15:00] you have the southern lights. That's where they actually come up. That's where Maori people saw it. They saw ah that they saw the stars actually flashing. You know, like you get the northern lights, the southern lights come from there. Another thing that I talk about is I hear this thing. Oh, Auckland's got the largest Polynesian population in the world. No, [01:15:30] Auckland has the largest non Polynesian na, uh, people in the world living in Polynesia. And that's the truth. We are Polynesians. You live on Polynesian Islands. You need to actually look at that. And II, I still get a bit of a thing when I hear people say they're European. But on a sometimes on an aeroplane This is what you will find. Are you European [01:16:00] or are are you Maori? Are you of Maori descent? I live here. You are of European descent. I am Maori. I haven't gone anywhere. And yet the racist thing is that we are of Maori descent. But you are normal. So just those types of things. [01:16:30] They may seem small, but when you see them, I just wanna say Nah, not right. Not right. One of my friends, um, about my car. He wants to see what it was like to come into this country. So he probably he was European. His father was to me. He was questioned at the border. But you're not the right colour. And so he said, Well, my mother is Maori [01:17:00] and my father is European or and they said that you should be putting down your Maori. What he was trying to do is saying is they made a fuss of it because he challenged them. And that's just a couple of other things. Just just for a moment, some of you might know that my partner was in the room, Bill Logan, and, um, not the easiest person to get on with someone first. OK, [01:17:30] but he he has recognised the racism that actually happens. We went to a couple of official functions, which I was the official guest at. And when we went in, they went right past me and talked to Bill. And you are here because and Bill said, I'm here because of him. When we went overseas, um, I took Bill. Um we decided that we we share things, but I wanted to take Bill on a holiday because he [01:18:00] was stressed to the max. So I went to everywhere we went, people offered him. The taxi first offered him everything first when if I was paying for a meal, they went to him and they looked at him. Are you sure that this man can afford to pay? Somebody asked me if I was this toy boy and I said, Well, pretty old toy. But they're mine. But those are the things [01:18:30] that individually, it may not seem so much. But when you see it happen, time and time again, people who don't know us will often assume that I am latching on to Bill because of his vast wealth. Devo but often with Maori people. Or I'm saying, probably with other people who have, um, [01:19:00] in the relationship. And those people love them very dearly, and we love that person as well. But people who don't know will often assume that I am a blud. That's what I'd like to stop it. Um, on on the, um when I sit on a train and like, I've got my bro shades on [01:19:30] and my beaming the reaction is so different to I remember, I was working at to head off on at the time. And when I was dressed up in whole suit and tie thing, it's so different. And I was thinking, I am the same person, but you obviously gonna treat me so differently here and here, whether I'm looking like a bro, you know, and or whether I've scrubbed up or not. But I think they've a genuine consultation. Would be, um, leaps and [01:20:00] bounds from what Maori would get at the moment rather than after the fact you know, the decisions preordained anyway. And also, I don't like that we get lumped into this multicultural or you're just another ethnicity. So I think recognition, um, that we are the indigenous people of a not just another multicultural from overseas. Someone around them. [01:20:30] Yeah, um, I'd I'd go back to, um, AM is one of my teachers. AM says Maori is the first law of a It's the only legitimate law of a That's what I see as a a change. Mhm. My my idea about, uh is, um, my father and I pay whatever they want to be. Um, I refuse [01:21:00] to to, um, to think of myself as being anything less than anyone else. And so I try not to get caught up. And, like so we all have who don't come out and then turn to drugs or turn to alcohol because they don't know what to do. Um, and said, uh, because So if they're mixed up within themselves and I think you can try [01:21:30] in terms of taking out, then a whole lot of things flow on from there. Um, and of course, our context of living in a today, um, is another contributing factor, if not the contributing factor. So I just want my farmer to be whoever they want to be, whatever they want to be and that they can do it. Um, without any, um, barriers based [01:22:00] on who they are, where they come from. Just because that's what I wanted to do. So yeah. Oh, I suppose for me, um, I my I suppose my gender identity not defining who I am, um would be extremely important. Um, I'm actually there now. Um, I've got a good job. [01:22:30] Um, I work with good people. Um, I've got a good home life. Um, so I'm I'm there now, but it's it's a pity that there are still, um, many, many people who, um, have the gender or their sexuality define who they are, and people can actually can't see past that. Um, and people are judged because of it and are put into a box. Um, [01:23:00] that are different. Um, And when people can actually start seeing the person to the person, um, see that they're actually a lot more than, um, their gender or their sexuality. You know, they are, um, a daughter, a son, a grandson, a granddaughter, an auntie, an uncle, a mother and a father. That has to be right. And [01:23:30] can I say something personally to you? Um, I think a lot of people laugh when you ask that question, but, um, I think it's there's a lot of fear that comes from asking questions in a space like this in public speaking. So I just hope you weren't discouraged by people laughing after you asked that, Because even though it was like I wasn't discouraged, it would be nice, you know, because often often if these and if we do talk about the war, what [01:24:00] is happening right now and the the problems and the issues. But as always, Not enough time to talk about where we want to go and how to get there. That's both things. OK, thank you. Um, I guess I wanted to return to you. The point made about the invisibility of whiteness for those of us that are white in the room Because I feel like not only do we get to see the world [01:24:30] through, um, lenses that make us normal in almost every situation we're in. But when we get challenged for racism, the invisibility of whiteness makes it really hard to hear that and respond from anything other than defensiveness. I think, um and I loved hearing what your world your perfect world look like. I guess, um, part of creating [01:25:00] a perfect world around race is white. People listening when people of colour tell us that what we are doing is not OK. I really, um, respect both Ian and Casey being able to say here. And now that the processes you guys went through, you don't feel we OK? Responding when we've got it wrong is one thing. Setting up situations so that we don't get it wrong in the first place is another. And I want to again thank him for acknowledging that that that's [01:25:30] actually about real relationships. It's about listening to one another in the first instance. Yeah, you think what we're trying to say is we are not the problem. We are not the problem who thinks that I end up. Kim brought up a very interesting word. [01:26:00] To do it correctly is the plural of th to do things correctly, not you. The weaving I talked about before with you. Our weaving was done with natural fibre and after a while, natural fibre, no matter how strong, it actually does fade. That's what it's gotta do. It's gotta break in order that we start [01:26:30] the new weaving with your food basket and my food basket. [01:27:00] But it is shared what we bring to the table. We may be able to feed a wider community. The end of the heart, the spirit, the soul, whatever you want to go with often what it is. Maori people often feel that we do bring our basket, but it's put to one side, so you're over there and the rest of us will be here. Please [01:27:30] let me remind you that if you put women Maori and you put the gay community. You put the sau the Asian community and that we are the majority. We are the majority. We want to work with you but we want to work beside you Not here or not Oh, let's bring the younger one up We are not [01:28:00] That argument is good. You say keep going Keep going because your weaving will become stronger out of it To all our speakers today, [01:28:30] they're not, you know, we're the people we the people. My sister a few years ago was at one of these not different, but the way was great. We're going to be bicultural and understand. But we had one hour to do our thing and the rest the had [01:29:00] three days. Right before it was great. My sister went up and she was a good organiser. This was about 20 years ago, she said. I want to have a I wanna have a bicultural and said Oh yes, that'll be great she said. I'm going to give the Maori 2. 5 days to talk about things and you're going to have an hour and the party has said no, no, that's racist. That's racist. She got the money. She brought the people down. They had to have a separate because people at that [01:29:30] time said No, you cannot run. And this actually happens in colonising, even our own people. We will often say to Maori people who are getting up or you're getting above yourself or you actually have. You're the you're the boss of pay our people. How can that be? That must be pretty dumb. Not realising that that we work sometimes a lot harder. Sometimes we get to a lot [01:30:00] smaller space. I'm not blaming you for the past. That was That is stupid. That is stupid. But I will actually come at you again if I come back in three years and we still haven't done the change. And that's for the Maori people too. [01:30:30] I don't want to clap because in Maori, when you clap in a meeting house like this, you'll say, get out. And you might feel that. But it wouldn't be so rude because you're good people. So I'm gonna say to you this and then you're gonna repeat it back after Fuck. Yeah, Not bad. Give mine to the back to back to me.

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TITLE: Session 5- Beyond conference
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VOICES: Chris Coles; Sandra Dickson
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asexuality Aotearoa New Zealand; Beyond conference (2013); Chris Coles; Guardian of the Dead (2010); HIV / AIDS; June Jordan; Out in the Square (Wellington); Robyn Ochs; Sandra Dickson; The Queer Avengers (Wellington); Vikram Seth; Wellington; Wellington High School; asexual; biphobia; bisexual; coming out; fluidity; google. com; health; identity; internet; invisibility; labels; media; next-of-kin; oppression; polyamory; relationships; research; stereotypes; validation
DATE: 12 October 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington High School, 251-281 Taranaki Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the session: Invisible sexualities within queer communities.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, we have, uh, Sandra, who is a bi biking bargain who wants to live in a world where all kinds of gender and sexual diversity is celebrated. We also have She's a describes herself as a chick who ended up in a nest with both a man and a woman seven years on, and she has decided to keep talking about it. And we have Chris Coles, who is a founder member of Asexuality, a New Zealand, a group set up to increase visibility and [00:00:30] understanding of asexuality. And he also has the dubious honour of having a minor Shortland Street character based on good. So the process that we're gonna use is this is going to go first and we're going to ask you to please listen to all of the speakers. After that, we'll, um, open the floor up to questions, comments and contributions. In case I forget, I'll let you know now that when we open up the floor to questions, comments, [00:01:00] comments and contributions, if you do not want to be recorded, please say I do not want to be recorded before you start the rest of your oratory. Thank you very much. I'll hand over to Frieda. Thank you. Um, hi. I'm Frieda, and I'm in a polyamorous relationship, which means I'm in a relationship with more than 11 person or an, um, a loving relationship. Um, I'm in a triangle relationship, which means we're all in relation to each other. We [00:01:30] all have a relationship as opposed to a V where there's one person in the middle and the other two have a relation to each other, but not not with each other. So I'm the triangle. Um, doing the speech really made me realise that there is quite a bit of invisibility around my, um, relationship First is the legal side of things. Um, next of kin is my family, not my partners. And so that means that, um [00:02:00] we have done well, so that will happen. But if my family contested it because our relationship isn't legal, that could actually, um, they they might have a chance of getting the money. So, um yeah, which isn't very much, anyway, Um, yeah. So another, um, part of going on from the legal thing is hospital next of kin we put down next of Kim. It's one person, so that's difficult too. Um, just [00:02:30] a personal, uh, story about hospital. We were in A and E on a Saturday night. You know what it's like? It's full on everyone everywhere. And we had a bed in the corridor and we were there with her. She was really sick. And, um, they asked one of us to leave and wait in the waiting room because there wasn't room for two of us. That was really hard. Because, like, how do we choose who's gonna be there and who's gonna be sitting in the waiting room, Um, worrying about the others. So that was another example. [00:03:00] Um, Also the mirroring thing, Like being validated by the fact that we have it in the media or in people around us. We just don't have that validation of the relationship. So what can happen is when I'm cheesed off with the other two instead of being cheesed off with them and trying to work that through, I'll be thinking, Oh, this is a natural thing. This isn't right. What's wrong with me? That this relationship is like that? And really I mean, a couple wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say Oh, [00:03:30] you know Oh, I think being in a couple was really bad and and what's It's really unhealthy and what's happening. So that's another area of invisibility. The other is the fact that we have to keep it secret from some people. Got two people in our everyday lives that we keep it secret from and, um, then actually having to tell people like we had this thing. The other day my partner was in, Um and I were in pack and save and the skill [00:04:00] comes up and they knew each other from primary school. Now in the middle of a supermarket, we don't really want to explain who I am, so that's that's quite an effect, but and sometimes I think, Oh, God, because it's none of their business. But other days when I'm feeling a bit low, that can have a real effect. Um, there's lots of good things about being polyamorous. You get lots of love you get. You get never a boring moment because there's three people adding [00:04:30] to the relationship, so you never get bored with it. Um, and there's cool little things that happen Like my little niece. Well, great niece. Her mother sent a, um, Facebook message to me and she said, Mum, I've got a girlfriend and a boyfriend because that's OK. A. So, um, any questions that people want to ask me afterwards? Just in private? I'm really happy to answer any questions there as well. Thank you. [00:05:00] Hi, everyone. Thanks for coming. Nice to see so many people here. Um, so my name's Sandra and I came out as bisexual 25 years ago. Now when I was 18. Um, just to give you some more context, I'm also I'm a woman. I'm a bogan and I'm very able bodied, ridiculously able bodied. Um, I want to talk today mostly about biphobia and bi invisibility and how those things impact on bisexual people. I'm not really interested in proving bisexual people exist, So if you need that, you need [00:05:30] to be somewhere else. OK? I'm keen to shift how invisible bi phobia seems to be even to radical queer people and encourage more of us to talk about it, challenge it and create safer spaces within queer spaces. For those of us attracted to genders similar to our own and genders different to our own. It's my belief that the persistence of Biphobia speaks to how disruptive to dominant power structures Bisexuality actually is. [00:06:00] So the title is ending by phobia by invisibility and the harms they cause by sexual people beyond by 101. OK, Has anyone seen you manage to even see it? Has anyone seen this flag? Yeah, OK. It was a bisexual pride flag. It was designed in 1998 by by artist Michael Page. He wanted to create a symbol that was going to sit beside the rainbow flag. The pink stripe at the top represents similar [00:06:30] gender attraction. The blue stripe at the bottom, different sex, different gender attraction and the blended stripe in the middle is attraction to all genders. So I'm going to start today with defining bisexuality, which isn't nearly as simple as you think. And I'm going to pick a few definitions from a few sources that fit for me. This is, um, African American civil rights activist, feminist, queer activist, June Jordan. Beautiful paper on bisexuality, she wrote in 1991. That was part of a manifesto of papers around, um, liberation [00:07:00] and anti. You can see there that she's talking about bisexuality breaking up either or validating complexity. Yeah, the next one I want to use comes from the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force was part of a, um, series of work around bisexual health that was done in 2004 to 2007. You can see here that they're talking about the capacity for emotional, romantic and physical attraction to more than one sexual gender, and that it [00:07:30] doesn't necessarily have to be se to account as far as they're concerned. And then, finally, the somewhat legendary Robin Oaks, maybe the best known white bisexual activist, at least in the world at the moment, she says she calls herself bisexual because she acknowledges that she has the potential to be attracted romantically and or sexually to people of more than one sex and or gender, not necessarily at the same time, not necessarily in the same way, and not necessarily to the same degree. What's interesting about this definition, I think, is that she's [00:08:00] stressing fluidity, OK, over type of attraction over time and over the intensity of attraction. Oh, that's interesting. I'll staple my paper so all of these definitions open up possibilities of desire of connection to other people, and I guess that's what attracts me to them because it fits my experience of my sexuality. When I came out when I was 18, I hadn't been sexual with a woman yet. But I knew at some point that I would. And I knew [00:08:30] that because while attraction is well and truly physical for me and that I like bodies and I like skin and I like hair and I like eyes and all of those things, it's also at a very basic level about connection. So it's about attraction to kindness. It's about attraction to integrity. It's about attraction to people who treat other people with respect and to people who have the intellectual capacity to take ideas apart and put them back together again. And none of those things exist solely in any gender. But I'm sure people aren't here to listen [00:09:00] to me. Talk about what I fancy. If you want to talk about that, we'll do it later. It will be a lot longer conversation. Um, what I'm interested in talking about today is biphobia and by invisibility, because it's true today, just as it's been true at every point, it fights for liberation for people from gender and sexuality, diverse communities that bisexual people get a pretty rough deal both inside and outside the queer community. I'm gonna use these definitions biphobia fear or hatred of bisexual people by invisibility, lack of acknowledgement of the clear [00:09:30] evidence that bisexual people exist. Be interested in hearing from the room. Now, some examples of biphobia. What do people think Bisexual people are supposed to be like Just just upgrading ingredient slutty, defused. Can't make up their minds. I I've had, um, clearly don't like trans people. Clearly, it's like who are you Clearly bind to the gender. Binary [00:10:00] is great because I never thought about those ideas. And I'm accused of being a liar about my own sexuality. Oh, no, you're not really, you know. So our sexuality disappears, depending on who we're with at the moment, any pressure to make up my mind. So I been to quite a while, then I should go to that side because I'm neither straight or gay or my Children. [00:10:30] I know he wanted to have babies, but not you. Are any of these, um stereotypes so shocking to anyone else in the room? They don't know what they mean or are these all pretty familiar things that many of us have heard? Mhm. Which familiar? Familiar? Yeah. OK, yeah. So I've got a few of those up there Something I prepared earlier. I wasn't typing that while you were writing. Um [00:11:00] and these are interesting because they're enduring. They're familiar. They've been around for an awfully long time. And I think they speak to anxiety that the Western world and Pakeha culture in particular has around sex and relationships. So I want to talk about that a little bit with each of these before I move on to other stuff. The first one. Greedy, uncommitted, promiscuous. That's just about wanting too much sex, right? It really is just about wanting too much sex when we live in a sex negative world which [00:11:30] is extraordinarily terrified of sex in all kinds of ways, wanting too much sex has to be bad because sex is bad. Interesting. The second one bisexual people are responsible for the spread of HIV and AIDS. HIV and AIDS has been constructed entirely as a queer disease. It's been constructed entirely as a punishment for being queer, especially for men, I think, um and what happens around um around this stereotype for us, I think, is that we've literally got [00:12:00] the idea in our in our minds and the public perception that bisexual men are carrying queerness into heterosexuality. And what's interesting about that is that how fragile is heterosexuality If we can carry Queerness into it and it's disrupted? I mean, what does that actually mean? It's kind of interesting. Next one, bisexual people are on the fence and cable confused. And some of the things that other people spoke to around the moment that we're in a long term monogamous relationship. Maybe it's gone. [00:12:30] My bisexuality is gone. We good. Um, those things all speak to fluidity, don't they? They all speak to the fact that, um, sexual desires can change over time. And as such, they're really dangerous, I think, to narrow social controls on sex and on relationships. Fluidity always kicks back against policing. It kicks back against binaries of any kind. And we know that Western world thinking is totally set up around hierarchies and binaries. So I think one of the reasons for the persistence of that is simply [00:13:00] that it disrupts some of those things. The last one here, bisexual people can choose to be gay or straight. That's kind of one of the things you're talking about. K A, um, a lot of human rights discourse in the queer community more broadly, especially from socially conservative queer people, comes from the idea that we're born this way and we can't change it, right? That's why we should have rights. We are born this way. What that does is positions the, um the natural. The being born [00:13:30] this way is authentic and the social. The ability to make choices, however constrained those choices might be, is inauthentic in some way. If we can choose our sexuality, how stable are any of our identities? Pretty fascinating, I think, Um, I have to say, though, that all of these stereotypes are not neutral for me, and they're probably not neutral for other bisexual identified people. Either. They're harmful and hurtful, and talking about them with any comfort varies for me considerably from day [00:14:00] to day. If I think about how they've played out in my life, I think I can think of layers and layers and layers and ex of experiences of pain, which forced me to consider in every context I'm in how safe it is for me to be out and how safe it is for me to talk about my life and who I am. If we move on to buy invisibility, this basically just tells us that by people don't really exist. We're on the road to gay town or we're really straight. Um, [00:14:30] what's interesting to that about that, I think, is that there's something going on here, and this is really enduring right. People have been saying this about us for at least the last 40 years, if not earlier. What's interesting about this is that there's something so disruptive about the category of bisexuality that the Western world actually needs to eradicate it. It's too scary for us. It gets pulled out for many bisexual people whenever we have [00:15:00] a new lover. Several people talked about that. Are we still really bisexual? Or have we shifted to a much more comfortable category that plays out in literally dozens of examples? Bisexual people literally getting edited out of research? This is a real quote from a real study, and it's far from alone. It happens over and over again, who who's familiar with the phrase gay relationship lesbian relationship. We've all heard that right? We are bisexual people in there. Invisible [00:15:30] gay marriage Can Can we go back to that, though? That's something that I struggle with that I. I was in a relationship with a bisexual person, and we had to call it a lesbian relationship. But then the same, I think the same goes for a straight relationship. How do you How do we change the language? So that we can describe this as a same sex relationship between people of different sexualities, rather than using the sexuality to define them? Does there need to be human language [00:16:00] like I end up using the umbrella term of queer? But I had actually for the most part, stopped using the word bisexual because it invites intrusive questions, first of all, and then secondly, I am like a bisexual woman married to a heterosexual man. So I pass it straight all the time. And so I will like, especially during the gay marriage thing. I marriage equality. I, of course, I use marriage equality, But like people, I had a lot of people from the lesbian [00:16:30] community being like, Oh, let's see heterosexual people get happy about marriage equality. What's up with that? And I'm like, Well, I am a queer person in a relationship. Therefore, my relationship is queer, just by definition, by existence, and that, as you say, it is totally erased by gay relationships. I totally agree. The umbrella queer is used, but it's still not perfect. It's not like I don't know if there is a perfect description. I don't either. [00:17:00] I wonder, can we park those very interesting points for after we finish talking, if that's OK, But I love the fact that there's so much passion in the room that wants to break out. That's awesome. Um, we also see bisexual people getting misnamed in the media all the time. These are two bisexual men who went to the media to talk about the fact when they tried to find a place to go and live that was supported to care for them. They couldn't. They couldn't find a place where they could live together, But you can see from the title. Actually, according to the mainstream [00:17:30] media, this isn't a story about bisexual people at all extraordinary. Both men are out in the articles bisexual. Both insisted that they be out in the articles bisexual, but the mainstream media struggles to cope with that. We are literally erased. So some of those things are probably pretty familiar to people, I think, if not in quite the way that I'm, um I'm pulling them into focus now. Another example that I only became aware of quite recently is Google. When you type in words to Google, [00:18:00] you get the auto. Complete the suggestions right of places you can go to look for information. If you type in gay or lesbian or heterosexual or intersex or transgender, you will get a number of suggestions of places you can go to. If you type in the word bisexual, you will get nothing. It's been blocked since 2010. Yeah, I, I think it's biphobia. I'm really serious. I think it's [00:18:30] sorry. Not if it doesn't apply for heterosexual. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it only it only to to bisexual across those gender and sexuality. Diverse genders. OK, so very brief whistle stop tour through biphobia and bi invisibility and what it looks like. I want to talk now a little bit about some of the impacts of that on bisexual people. Um, and because I'm a geek, I'm going to use some research to talk about this. This is a really interesting [00:19:00] study. Um, from the states. Nearly 1200 queer people, um, asked them all kinds of questions about their lives. The one thing I want to raise here is they asked the question around Are you out to the people in your life that matter to you? The people that are important to you? Have you told them about your sexuality? You can see here if you're bisexual, you're way, way, way less likely to have told people in your life about who you are. It's even worse if you're a bisexual man. Just 12% of bisexual men [00:19:30] tell the important people in their life that they're bisexual. Not really that surprising when we think about the stereotypes that exist out there about bisexual people and the way we're likely to be responded to when we come out, they told the people in their lives that are important Or they come out yes, about their sexual identity because I think those things are different. I'm using them in the same way in this in this context. Yeah, So they've told people in their lives that they are bisexual, lesbian or gay. Yeah. Um, [00:20:00] OK, second area of impacts health. So we have a growing body of research now, which is essentially showing us that there are hierarchies along sexual orientation, with bisexual people being the least healthy gays and lesbian gay men and lesbians being less healthy than heterosexuals and heterosexuals. Unsurprisingly, being the most healthy, there's a quite a significant piece of research done on this in 2007. According to that piece of research, bisexual [00:20:30] people have higher risks of problematic drug and alcohol use, not fun. Drug and alcohol use, problematic drug and alcohol use. We have higher rates of sexual health issues. We have higher rates of tobacco use. We have higher rates of cancer, partly because we're less likely to go to screening and less likely to have preventative health activities, but also because we're more likely to be doing things like smoking, which cause cancer. We have poorer heart health. We have higher rates of depression and anxiety, and those rates of depression and anxiety for gay [00:21:00] men and lesbians significantly decrease across the life span for bisexual women in particular, they don't. We have higher levels of self-harm and suicidality for some of those harms. We sit pretty close to gay men and lesbians, but we're way worse off on others. We're also, and again growing body of research. We're only starting to get through some of this stuff. This is a, um this is a national study in the United States that looks at, [00:21:30] um, intimate partner, sexual and stalking, intimate partner violence, sexual violence and stalking. And they've drilled down into that, um, data along sexual orientation. That's probably pretty hard to see. Essentially bisexual women. 61% of bisexual women will have an experience of sexual violence stalking an intimate partner, violence in their life that some for heterosexual women, the figure is 35%. For lesbians, it's 44% way more at risk. The same is true for bisexual [00:22:00] men, although you can see there that figures for men are lower. Overall, bisexual men are still more likely to be experiencing those forms of, um, violence and harm from someone that they're intimate with. I hope that it's given you enough evidence of the harm of Biphobia to begin to think about using the term and to begin to thinking about it every using it every time we use homophobia and transphobia, because when we leave out, naming [00:22:30] biphobia is a specific type of oppression. We're essentially denying the existence of bisexual people every time Biphobia is missed out. We're continuing the erasure of bisexual lives, and I know for radical queer people that's not something we want to be doing. I wanted to, um, when I was preparing the information for this and there was a lot of other stuff that I didn't include. I didn't want to leave us holding those harms because that's not all that being bisexual is about for me. [00:23:00] And I know it's not all of what being bisexual is about for lots of people. So I wanted to talk a little bit about some of the things that people that are allies to bisexual people can do when it comes to starting to end by phobia and naming some of these terms. So the first one, you know, you guys aren't gonna be able to see this. The first one's really simple. Just believe that we exist, Yeah, when you hear someone who's bisexual come out. Don't ask them if they're sure. Don't ask them if they thought about [00:23:30] it. Really, Don't tell them like you were saying that you can't possibly be. Just don't do those things. They're disrespectful. We don't do. We don't do those to other forms of sexual identities. They're not OK. Don't try to talk me into redefining my identity and something that's more comfortable for you. My father has been telling me for 20 years he would prefer it if I was a lesbian, that it would be easier for him. And I tell him I've been telling him repeatedly for 20 years. It wouldn't be easier for me, and I think [00:24:00] in terms of my sexual relationships, what's easier for me is more important. I'm sure I'm not alone in having had that experience. Third, one celebrate bisexual culture along with me. We have all kinds of examples of, um, by people doing fabulous things by history by history that gets invisible often under the queer umbrella. Um, one of those examples and Prue was in the talk earlier around. Naming [00:24:30] is around the ways bisexual women's experiences get subsumed in our queer history. Um, we were talking about the lesbian radio show and the number of bisexual women that have been involved in that over the years. Um, yeah, Don't rub us. Don't rub us out. Don't try to convince me that people who've lived bisexual lives in the past would have been gay if they'd lived today. They might be. We don't know. I don't know. You don't know? We're not sure. Basically, [00:25:00] it's It's simple. We're not sure. We don't know Every time we do that, every time we say, Oh, they were probably really gay. We're basically erasing bisexuality from from our world. Views validate my frustration with the gay and lesbian community when they ignore or exclude bisexuals. This happens all the time every time we hear gay and lesbian. And it's actually supposed to be including of more diverse sexualities and gender identities than just gay and lesbian. [00:25:30] Help us challenge it. I think if I could pick one of these things, that would be my favourite. Um, yeah, Fred has just talked to this a little bit, and I luckily I knew you were talking on this panel, so I could I could raise this one. Ask me if it's appropriate about my different sex relationships and my similar sex relationships. Don't just ask me about one of them. Don't pretend the one that you're not that interested in doesn't exist. Actually, they're important to me because [00:26:00] they're the people that I'm choosing to be intimate with. If there's some sort of bisexual scandal in the news, don't use it as an opportunity to make the rise of remarks about bisexuals. Generally, I'm just gonna leave that. I'm sure people can work that out for themselves and finally speak up when bisexual people are defamed or excluded, whether we're there or not. So it's lovely to see people doing that when I'm there. I'd love to know you're doing it when I'm not there, too. And it doesn't happen enough. Biphobia does not get talked [00:26:30] about enough in our queer communities. OK, I'm going to finish with another quote from another beautiful out bisexual person. This is from Seth the author, he says, in the strict ranks of gay and straight. What is my status? Straight or great? And I have to say for me, despite all the bio and by invisibility that exists within the queer community and outside I've never for one moment not considered describing myself as bisexual. I've never considered for one moment not calling myself [00:27:00] stray and great and modest as that might sound. Um, I think that opening that possibility up to other people who experience both similar and different gender attractions is really important. And when we don't do that, we continue the harms of biphobia by invisibility. That's all. Thank you. I just ask everybody to call [00:27:30] your questions and comments and contributions till after Christmas is finished. That way, we'll also all get Oh, yeah, actually, let there be light and her last night. Hi, everyone. Um, I'd just like to start by, basically defining what an asexuals. Well, this is the most common definition you're probably gonna come across. Is that an asexuals? Someone who does [00:28:00] not experience sexual attraction. So, in other words, someone who has no desire to interact sexually with another person. And, um, I'd like to say that despite the lack of sexual attraction that's common to asexuals people, many experience romantic attraction, a desire for a romantic relationship with another person. So in the asexuals world, we have romantic orientation. So we talk about people being hetero, romantic, bi, romantic, homo romantic, [00:28:30] pan romantic. And we also have people who do not experience romantic attraction either. And these people are known as a romantics, and that's what I am. I'm an A romantic asexuals. I have no desire to be in a romantic or sexual relationship with anyone. So I knew I was as sexual as soon as I heard about sex in the school playground when I was about 10 years old. I just knew really deep down that it was something that I was never going to get interested in. And actually, this wasn't a problem [00:29:00] for the next couple of years, anyway. And when my friends and peers hit puberty, bang, you know, they were off and it was romances and crushes and snogging and all the rest of it. Meanwhile, I was left about 500 miles behind going, Hey, um, and despite repeatedly expressing my disinterest in sex and relationships, I was simply not believed. The thought that anyone might not be interested in sex was simply just it was just too preposterous [00:29:30] to be taken seriously. So consequently, over the years, my lack of interest in sex has been dismissed. In many ways, I've been told often with great authority that my lack of interest is, and some of these may be familiar to other people in the room. A passing phase, an attempt to draw attention to myself, a fear of intimacy, a symptom of self hatred, an indicator of sexual abuse. The failure to have met the right person. Um, just the result [00:30:00] of never having tried sex. The school of thought. Yeah, well, if you try it, you'll like it. It's a bit like whiskey or whatever Brussels sprouts. I don't know. It's a smokescreen for my homosexuality. It's part of a deeply cynical world view, and I am quite a cynical person. Maybe not that simple. And of course, it's a symptom of a psychological and all physical illness. So for me over the years, this has been a very painful experience. [00:30:30] Despite making great efforts on many occasions to tell people how I felt, I was never really believed and thus rendered truly invisible. That all changed, though nine years ago, and I came across the website of the US based Asexuals Visibility and Education Network. It's known as a for short, thankfully and This was a site that featured an active forum and there were people on there who discussed their lack of sexual attraction. [00:31:00] They played around with asexuals identities. They considered different types of attraction and they told they're growing up and coming out stories because asexuals come out. Um, incredible as it may seem, this was the first time I had ever encountered any people like myself. I was 38 years old. It was pretty special and this kind of encounter turned out to be a very common experience amongst the asexuals [00:31:30] on the forum. So many of us thought that we were the only people in the world who felt the way we did, and all of a sudden we were no longer alone or invisible. It's magical, so quite a bit has changed over those last nine years. Interest in asexuality grew following the publication of an academic paper in 2004 that estimated the number of people who do not experience sexual attraction to be around 1% of the population and the concept [00:32:00] of asexuality entered the mainstream and it was featured in newspapers and magazines, blogs, radio TV programmes and here in New Zealand. I founded a group in 2005 called Asexuality a TO in New Zealand, and we aim to increase the visibility and awareness of asexuality. Although really, for me, what I really wanted to do was to reach out to all the other asexuals and to let them know that they weren't alone. I wanted to give other people that kind of magic moment I've been given. [00:32:30] So during the five years the group was active, um, I appeared in newspaper articles, was interviewed on national radio. I spoke at conferences and ran a stall at the Wellington Gay and Lesbian Fair. That was fun. Possibly more significant, though, than my little efforts was the fact that Shortland Street featured an Asexuals character, the first asexuals soap character in the world between 2007 and 2010, and this [00:33:00] introduced the concept of asexuality to more people than I could have possibly hoped for. So while our group, I think, was successful in raising awareness in mainstream media, we were less successful in carving a niche in the LGBT world. When I founded the group, I thought extremely naively as it turns out that every type of non heteronormative group would simply run up and embrace asexuals. Asexuality, Just like that, Uh, I was dead wrong. [00:33:30] Many, many people in groups found it difficult to see how asexuality fitted into a queer world asexuals weren't persecuted in the way gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual people are. So why did Asexuals need to ally with queer groups? And why did we want to be part of a queer community? Surely asexuals. We were just something else entirely. Really. And as well as this kind of puzzlement, We also encountered hostile reactions as well as being seen as a fiction, something that never really existed. Anyway, a sexuality [00:34:00] was seen also seen as something dangerous. Me dangerous. Look at me. Do I look? Yeah, I'm a qualified librarian, but asexuality was a trap, and it could hobble the development of queer youth. You don't want people being caught, you know, not fulfilling their proper potential as gay or bi or straight or whatever. You know, uh, asexuality can mask the diagnosis of mental [00:34:30] and physical illness. It's basically considered a problem. I was very much saddened by these kinds of reactions. Actually, I wrote this I wrote this paragraph quite a few times. The first one was more explicit, but then I thought, Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Don't pull it back in. I was very much saddened. I was really upset by the reactions. Um, that we got the last time I did the gay and Lesbian Fair was in 2010, And, um, [00:35:00] the people from either side there was the green Party, nice people. And there was the family planning people that side. And, um, people from both sides came up to me over the day. I was just there by myself and both people from both sides. We cannot believe how people are treating you, how people are talking to you. You know, people just would stand and point and laugh. Ha. Really sexuality What the fuck out of here? It was just Yeah, it just It was pretty overwhelming [00:35:30] for me, so I decided to stop, so I, um yeah. So I eventually gave up any real effort to convince queer individuals and groups that asexuality should be recognised as a valid, legitimate orientation. I am asexuals. I am queer. And if people want to debate that with me. Well, then that's fine. But I've yet to come across any argument or point of view that has convinced me I can't be both now. Lastly, I'd just like to say that [00:36:00] even though the treatment that I've had from some members of the queer community has been harsh, I did discover a really easy way of avoiding 99% of negative reactions. Can anyone guess what that is? No, it's not. No, it's not staying in the closet. No, it's basically I try to avoid at all costs discussing gay sexuality with anybody older than I am. I think I'm born on some kind of border or LA line or something, [00:36:30] because anybody younger than me, I'm 47. By the way, anyone younger than me seems to have little or no problem with the concept of I said 99%. And so and so is Bill. I know. And so, Tony, they're all in this room. It's it's amazing. Yes. Um, whereas older [00:37:00] people, um, yeah, for this look that usually just comes on their faces and they shut down and they think it's very It's a very serious thing to, you know, to classify myself as and and avoid, you know, avoiding all this potential and all the rest of it. And I thought seriously about this, that and the other. And I can live without that, actually, um, so that's that's that makes me feel very positive, actually, because, you know hey, go, young people. Yeah, you're fantastic. But also that this I see this problem as generational and in, [00:37:30] you know, 20 or 30 years time as sexual people won't have to deal with those kind of reactions or as many of those kind of reactions as they do today. Thanks. And we're gonna open the floor up to questions, comments and contributions. Can I just give my little warning by now? That is, um, for those of you that wrote, um, just a little bit later into the session, we do [00:38:00] have the session recorded. If you do not want your question or comment, say I don't want to be reflected, and then that will be dealt with in a place in history. Thank you. Because if I could just get them all out at once with bisexual partners. Um, have you ever come across that like a partner? Themes that you're 40 or 60% leaning until you've, I guess, [00:38:30] had that communication or the 50 50. However, I guess they perceive we have. Have you had the complication that they might worry that you're either gonna leave for a woman or a man, depending on who you're with. Do you want us to answer them one at a time, or do you want to give us all of the questions? That was my first one. And just for Chris was have they done studies on the first of all? And also, have you considered the utility of a relationship [00:39:00] that's not based on, you know, for other companionship rewards that you might get? Do you want to answer your question? OK, um, I don't date explicitly biphobic people. I certainly have dated people for whom thinking about bisexuality is new. Um, and as in any relationship, when you have an identity that's different from the person you're dating, part of being intimate [00:39:30] with sharing stuff around that, um have I ever had anyone tell me they're worried that I'm gonna leave them for the different gender from them? No, I don't think so. Because I think I guess for me. When you're beginning a relationship with someone you're exploring, how good it is to be in that relationship. There hasn't been a conversation about, But you're going to leave me, aren't you? Um, that pressure has certainly, with some women I've dated, it's certainly been, um, things that friends around them have said to my female partners, [00:40:00] some of my female partners. So it's been a, um, a part of biphobia that we've had to navigate together. Yeah, but no, not directly from lovers. Thank, thankfully, thanks. And you talk about with the utility. Have I considered being in a relationship because, well, not the romantic ideal, forever after kind of thing. The utility of Well, I think I get all my emotional needs Met through friends. I think friendship is really, really undervalued in our society. You know, there's so much focus on finding the [00:40:30] one your other half your soul mate. Whatever. Sorry. You know, I'm complete as I am. Or at least I feel complete, you know. So, yeah, I have absolutely no difficulty meeting my emotional needs through friendship. And what about studies on the on the be Well, asexuality is quite a new phenomenon. So there hasn't been a lot, um, from small studies that have been done. Um, there doesn't [00:41:00] seem to be any, and sexuality isn't about libido. It's about attraction, if you see what I mean. Um, you I I'll let it be that it's not about the Can I elaborate? So, II I Yeah. So I don't feel so if someone held a gun to my head and said, Look, I'm gonna shoot you unless you sleep with Bill Logan. I could do it. I thought, that's a common [00:41:30] No, but it's something Nothing personal me like I just saw your face. Uh, it's not something I want to do. I could have you know, I could sleep with Kay. I could sleep with any of you, I reckon, and and manage to do it. But it's not something I'm attracted to do. It's not. It's There's no internal kind of desire there for me. 20. Um, you know, I identify this is a question for Frieda. [00:42:00] Um, and I'll just share my little context. I identify as as polyamorous, but I'm in a long term relationship with someone who's monogamous, and part of the challenge for me has been negotiating with him about to what extent I can actually explore that. And over time, I have actually built up this thing that, yes, I can go off and have have flings, flirtations, whatever. And that's it's OK, because I've built that, um, in your [00:42:30] sort of, um, situation. Did you start with forming a relationship with one person expanding, or was this something that you sort of? Oh, I'm attracted to this. How did you sort of do those negotiations? Sort of, uh, they were actually looking for had been looking for a partner and had several, um, partners, but it hadn't worked out. And then we ended up together. Yeah. Um, I have two sort of question slash observations. One is for Sandra [00:43:00] and the room in general, I guess. And that says a young woman who identified as bisexual and now queer because I guess that kind of, you know explains better. But often I felt really, um, difficult about the fact that often young women who are exploring bisexuality get sort of dismissed as bisexual or doing it for the male gays. And it's it's really gross [00:43:30] to feel your sexuality be centred in something that men are like, Oh, check out the chicks kissing. That's so hot. They're doing it for us and you're not. But how do you deal with that? You know who. That's not a little question, is it? God, I think that kind of the colonisation of queer women getting it on by the straight male gays is of concern [00:44:00] to all queer women. I think not only bisexual women, Um, and I don't know the answer to that, apart from smashing the patriarchy, Um, but I certainly have heard, you know, some of the things, even from, um, even from other queer people who consider themselves the allies that but those people aren't really bi, and it comes down to that. Sometimes they're not really bisexual. They're just doing it for da da da da da da da, da, da. Whatever the reason is, um [00:44:30] God, I don't I don't have an answer for this. I'm sorry. It's gross and yucky, and I completely agree with you that it's rubbish. I, um I come across it with our partnership, of course, and it's like, Hi, five. Good on you. You know, you got two women, and it's really Yeah, we get a lot, and I mean, especially as someone who's in a relationship with a man. People are like, Oh, well, you must have threesomes or whatever, but it's just gross [00:45:00] intrusive. My other thing for you is, um I mean, I Recently? Well, fairly. Recently, I'm an acquaintance with a young New Zealand author who is an author of young adult fiction. And she, um, featured an AEX character in one of her recent books, and I thought that that was really great to see that people are trying to introduce that to young adult fiction as well, because it gives young kids the [00:45:30] awareness. Surprisingly, it yeah, through home. Sadly, you talked a bit about, um, um, born that way social construction choice stuff, which I think is important not only to bisexuals, but should be important to all community. So it isn't always, I mean, or rather, there's an awful lot of, um, we're born [00:46:00] that way, and it's very convenient politically to have we're born that way because you can't help it so absolutely fall to discriminate against us. There are a heck of a lot of lesbians, of course, who also who do believe they're born that way. If I was, I was concerned that maybe they they certainly believe that that's all fine. But there are a lot of us who who go talk about choice. And of course, it goes right back to and rich and, you know, giving to women in your life emotionally the works. And, um and of course, that at a time [00:46:30] might have been seen very exclusionary, because, I mean, that was but it was part of feminine. So it wasn't just and, um, but there are a lot of us who do regard it. It came out politically as a choice. And, you know, in the end, you know what you may maybe you are on that way, Who knows? But it's, um But it worries me, the politics of it that that, um that so much of the whole queer politics or not a whole lot of a lot of queer politics has been certainly about how change has been, and I don't [00:47:00] know what we can do about that. And I don't want to suggest for one moment that people who experience themselves as having gone to primary school and only experienced similar gender attraction didn't really That's not what I'm saying. Um, what I am saying when we shut down those choice conversations when we shut, shut down the, um, ability to, um, pay attention to the fact that those things change over time for lots of us, um, and change, depending on the context we're in for lots of us. I know when I've been playing um, women's sport, for example. That's pretty much been a site [00:47:30] of, um, lots of similar gender attraction and not much different gender attraction. And there's other situations where it operates the other way around cricket. Um, so I guess for me it's about continually opening up that dialogue of choice and continually insisting that we don't have to be born this way to have human rights. You know, that's that's a, um, a red hearing, as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, and I think we need to keep stressing that and keep talking about that in our conversations [00:48:00] does. Anyway, do you have a I mean, that's because it's relevant for all three of us. Probably. They're born this way. Convo. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. Um, and OK, if not, I didn't mean to put you on the spot. I really thought about it. I mean, from my experience of the asexuals community, which isn't in a physical sense isn't very big, but online. It's very big. [00:48:30] Um, people are extremely accepting. Um, so if if a person wanted to define themselves as asexuals for whatever reason, could be political or social or whatever. Generally speaking the as community is far. Yeah, um, when we were when the group I was in was kind of corresponding with and I forget who it was, some kind of Rainbow network group. Um, we said, Well, you know what if what if people who are sexually abused you say sexuality [00:49:00] as a as a cover or whatever we said That's perfectly fine. If if they want to take that label and use it to protect themselves while they're figuring out stuff or choose not to figure out stuff, that is totally fine, it's their choice. Yeah, so totally. Yeah, totally fine. With people taking that label, the person should choose the label on the other way around. Right. Um, we're needing to wrap up, so I have one more question from the contribution. [00:49:30] Um my, my name is, um uh, question for all of you is, um just, you know, I I would like advice on Yeah, How to, um, Sorry. We can coming out. But it's about, like, you know, how do you do what you do there with other kinds of sexual [00:50:00] expression and gender expression. So, you know, I don't know what labels but me. So, you know, OK, like gender queer seems to come about close in terms of my gender and fluid in terms of sexuality. And so in my journey, um, coming to these labels, which I don't actually take time, they're just close. And in my journey of gender identity and sexuality, I've come across lots. And so, you know, I did stand [00:50:30] up comedy, and there was a you know, we got the whole alphabet. You know, it was kind of a choke. I actually, you know, I've heard people further the alphabet community. So we're talking about, um, invisible, um, identities. Um, yeah. How do How do we stop being invisible in a safe way? Like I really liked what you said. You could really feel what you [00:51:00] said about, um don't talk to older people about it. You know, like, and I like to talk with older people about it in safe ways. And so any comments around that subject would be a great thing to appreciate it. Well, sometimes. Well, if I If I am talking to older people, I don't use labels, labels gets talking about labels as asexuals. Oh, well, that's, like homosexual, bisexual. Well, suddenly into a whole different territory. So with older people, I tend to just describe [00:51:30] my feelings. So I'll say I'm I've never been interested in having a relationship. And I go, Hm? Oh, right. And then sometimes I say, Yeah, I'm like, a stick of rock. If you've cut my head off, I've got single written all the way through me and they go, Oh, yes, right. And they kind of poodle away. And so I've told them how I'm feeling. I've told them that don't set me up on any blind dates with your grandson or granddaughter, you know? So I've I've expressed [00:52:00] myself. I've told them what I feel, but I haven't used labels. I don't know if that helps with me. Um, I find that, uh, people watch our relationship. They see how it works. And that's what is the proof we put in. And, um, so and just on the telling, old people, Yeah, it is interesting. And like, relations will go now. You're a good friend, and so that that does happen. But, um, yeah, definitely. [00:52:30] Just seeing our relationship work is the best. Is the best proof really for us? Hm. And for me, um, kind of almost the opposite of what you're saying. It's really interesting because I really liked how you phrase it. But I think coming out for queer people is a political act every time we do it and whether we want to claim a label around that or whether we want to talk about who we are around that I think both of those both of those [00:53:00] things are valid ways of doing it. But I think talking about who we are, and I know it's terrifying sometimes, and I know we have to be careful about safety around that, but I think that is the only way our world is going to change if we speak to our truths. And if we speak truth to the power around, um, groups around us that are trying to deny those identities. So for me, I come out and I come out and I come out and I come out and I come out. Yeah. Hm. Just [00:53:30] like that panel again for another break.

IRN: 767
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_conference_session_4.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004269
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089563
TITLE: Session 4 - Beyond conference
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Joey Macdonald; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Sally Dellow
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland Sexual Health Service; Beyond conference (2013); Human Rights Commission; Joey Macdonald; Kelly Ellis; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Priscilla Penniket; Sally Dellow; The Queer Avengers (Wellington); To Be Who I Am (2008); TransAdvocates Health; Wellington; Wellington High School; ageing; education; health; health system; intersex; mental health; racism; suicide; support; surgery; transgender; transition; youth
DATE: 12 October 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington High School, 251-281 Taranaki Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the session: Health and gender diversity.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: OK, I think we'll make a start. Those of you here before you gonna have to listen to me again for a bit. I've been asked to facilitate this session. Um, and it's around. It's around health care and gender diversity. So, um, access to to health care and the healthcare needs of the gender diverse communities. Um, on the panel with me is, uh, Jerry McDonald. Um, Marie Mitchell. Um and I [00:00:30] um So I've done a lot of talking in the previous session, so I'm gonna try and avoid doing a lot of talking. So just as a way of, um, starting off the session, I'll ask the other three panellists just to provide some thoughts. So and, um, welcome to to it seems very weird of us sitting here like some kind of expert with you out there in the sea. So let's reorganise [00:01:00] the room. I think C circles cool, but let's make a smaller circle and I I do want to recognise that we're in a, um um to acknowledge that and and to start this session by thinking about the people who are not here with us and the people who are not here with us because they couldn't be for various reasons, but more of the people who are not here with us because they've been failed by the health system [00:01:30] and and whatever regard. So I think Let's just take a minute. Because everybody here I'm gonna imagine in this room has stories and and people, um, either directly or indirectly. So let's just take a minute, and then we'll start this workshop. Yeah. Thank you, Sally. Um, this workshop [00:02:00] as well, I'm sure explain in a moment is is somewhat organic and unfolding, So, um, I'll hand it back to you. Um, I suppose where I where I start with this, there's a bit of history. Um, and obviously, the place I would start is the Human Rights Commission. Inquiry into trains and intersex issues was to be who I am. Um, which [00:02:30] came out 2008. 2008. So five years ago. Um, I went to an update last year, so the the that document identified significant issues and variability in the health care for trans people. Oh, I need you there. Sorry. The child is medical. Yeah. So, I. I can start, I guess. Thanks. [00:03:00] um my name is Amy. Um, I'm a trans woman. I'm and I'd just like to say, first off, the HSC inquiry was more about trans issues, and the intersex thing was a bit of a sideline that I think I added in the end. And I think there's probably a lot more work that needs to go into that that space as well. So I just wanted to say that, And during that process, um, there was an identification of the lack or the inconsistency of health issues [00:03:30] for trans people, um, within New Zealand. And an outcome of that was, um, a project of work that, uh, the Ministry of Health set up and and asked County DH B to run. And and luckily enough, I'm here with two other Joey and who are also part of that project. Our role within that project was merely there as a reference group. Um, and the way I like to think of it is given the opportunity or [00:04:00] a conduit to allow the community to voice their opinion on on what was happening within the, um, community, Um, it's probably fair to state that the outcome of the county Hispanic our DH B process, Um, could have been better. I guess that's one way to to suggest it. It was tasked with producing a set of guidelines. Um, for clinicians, that was, um, the way it was set up. It was a very strict, um, a very strict mandate [00:04:30] of what? It what it was going to look at or guidelines of what it was going to look at. It was made very clear to us up front that there was no funding for the outcomes for that. So simply it was the creation of the guidelines. And then that would be it. Um On top of that, there was the Ministry of Health. Ministry of Health. Towards the end of it did state that there would be a review on the guidelines. After two years, that is due next year. It's actually passed. So it's two years, but they didn't publish [00:05:00] it until 2012. I was doing research on this so they could technically say that in 2014 it's due for review because the date they have on that publication from the Ministry of Health is sometime in 2012, even though it's actually been longer. I mean, the one thing for me that certainly came out of that process and having the opportunity to talk to a very diverse group of people through some workshops who ran here in Wellington and also also some we ran and Auckland is that to [00:05:30] say the least, there was very patchy health care available out there, and it really came down to how lucky people were. A lot of that luck came down to where you lived and certainly if you lived outside of, um, the main centres, the main centres being Auckland, Wellington and to a degree, Christchurch and Dunedin. Then your luck would often be very bad. Um, and you are subject to some very poor GPS in the community and and effectively no support from the DH B for any services whatsoever. [00:06:00] And the biggest problem with that is the way our DH B system is set up. That is, once you're attached to a DH B by the virtue of where you live, it's actually, um, extremely difficult to get a service from another DH B. You couple that with a lot of trans people. Um, not having too much money and the ability to travel to main centres to receive the treatment. They want something else. Originally, I'm from Auckland. Um, been down here since, um, 2008. [00:06:30] And one thing I should point out I. I found it quite odd when I first came to Wellington after being a resident of West Auckland for, um, the majority of my life just how white Wellington is, and we can probably notice that just by looking around the room here, Um and certainly when we went back to Auckland and had one of our in Auckland in South Auckland, um had the opportunity to speak to a lot of the Pacific and Maori women, Trans Woman and the community [00:07:00] it became It started to become very clear to me that there were, um, two main things that would make you lucky in getting health care. One of them was being, and one of them was, um, having money because having money gave you options. Um, if you lacked one of those things and it certainly, if you lack both of those things, then your opportunity to get lucky with the health system started to decrease straight away. The other thing that, um has certainly some recent events in Auckland with the Auckland Sexual Health Service [00:07:30] or clinic. I'm not too sure what it's called, actually. But the Auckland Sexual Health Clinic in Auckland has long provided very good services for the, um Trans community in Auckland. And recently they had a bit of a snag with their funding and it it reminded me that really, in New Zealand, there isn't actually any funding that's specifically targeted to trans health. And certainly what is available tends to only be there to assist people through transition. And then once [00:08:00] you've transitioned or I like to think we never, ever finish transition, it's called life As those services start to get a little bit more hairy to, um to get I know in Wellington, um through the services offered by Capital Coast DH B, there are services there, but again, none of them are targeted and none of them are funded. So once again, it becomes, um, a bit of a lottery, depending on your GP the ability of your GP to get you, um, into various [00:08:30] programmes with the endocrinology clinic, the psychologist, et cetera in Wellington, and I've been told by one of the psychologists in Wellington that they don't have any funding for trans people. And they just do it more or less out of their own good will of making their time available for for referrals. And I see, I think that's really the nutshell of where our problems actually exist in in New Zealand, as it's all done through goodwill. Yeah, II, I can build off that a little bit. Um, [00:09:00] in, um, so I'm Joey McDonald, and I live in Auckland at the moment. Um, so about the CM DH B resource. Um, there were there were two parts of that that I kind of parallel things that were going on at the same time that I think is, um the official resource was being written by health professionals, um, and then those of us who were just volunteers to be kind [00:09:30] of trans and gender diverse reference group people would try and give feedback and give kind of our perspective on Oh, yeah, let's. Could you maybe think about how this term real life experience is problematic and include something about safety and even maybe think about moving beyond a diagnosis model or think about having informed consent as well as a diagnosis option. So when you're creating pathways of care which don't exist for trans stuff, um, in New Zealand, specifically around transition, to [00:10:00] try and create pathways of care that are flexible but have consistent, consistent access because, yeah, it was really inconsistent all over the place in different DH BS. We did give that feedback and it didn't really get very far. Um, as you can imagine in that situation, everyone was very, very stretched, so we were just volunteers. They were getting a small amount of money to do. It was kind of whipped up at the last minute. So the the resource itself, I have never recommended to anybody because I think it actually is damaging. It's really, really unhelpful. It's now completely out of date with international best practise, [00:10:30] even if you're being conservative and considering there could be better international best practise. But but even on the basis of like the standards of care by the World Professional Association of Transgender Health that those standards of care are now ahead of what this resource is recommending, um so it needs to be updated desperately and hopefully will be I went back and had a look at it recently because we're doing some lobbying of the Ministry of Health. Um, part part of my role at affinity [00:11:00] Services, which is a mental health NGO, um, as a rainbow liaison person. So working with a few other people like Marie and like Moira at the Mental Health Foundation and Jack at the Mental Health Foundation. So a few of us getting together trying to write another kind of document. I don't think it'll be a report, but just kind of something to give to the Ministry of Health and be like, Hey, this this thing really needs updating. We still don't have consistent pathways of care that HR C report that was written in 2008. None of those recommendations about [00:11:30] health care have been taken up, have been moved forward. Um, yeah, and and try and get more conversations happening on that basis, We So there was that kind of that stream. And then there was a parallel stream of, uh, we were getting all this information and feedback from trans communities and gender diverse communities and intersex communities to a lesser extent. Um, and we created a community feedback document. Um, which was we thought could be, like a companion resource for, um, since the clinical [00:12:00] resource was intended for GPS primarily. So we thought this would be a good thing for us to be able to give at the same time. Um, and that was based on what we thought were the five principles of health Care. Um, for our communities, we wanted to base it on access safety, well being respect and diversity. And we wrote a little thing about that was kind of synthesising a huge amount of feedback that we were getting from a lot of different people. But that basically, if you had those five, values underpinning your provision of health care, then you would be doing a [00:12:30] lot better than we currently are. Um, so that's a really great little document that I'm rewriting now and updating and hopefully can go out again and be something that we can give to people and and agitate around. Um, knowing that it did come from community consultation and, um continues to be really, really relevant. That's that's my update on that. One of the things, um and hello. My name is money. And [00:13:00] for those of you don't know me, I'm an intersex person. I also work within the system. I'm a a therapist in private practise, and I run a small not for profit organisation that does training and education work around intersex issues. And I think what will be useful now is you've heard some reports on some of the initiatives that are going on If we just quickly go around the group and provide an opportunity for people to introduce themselves, I think name and preferred [00:13:30] gender pronoun, if you have one. And then what are the issues that you would like us to talk about? We've got about half an hour left, which I think this workshop probably could go on reasonably all afternoon. I'm sure it's an important issue for lots of people. But if if you can be brief and then we'll do our best to address the issues that are are brought up. So we well, Sally, do you want to start or do you Are you gonna What have you worked out? What your role is here other [00:14:00] than being our Well, uh, my name's Sally Dilla. Um, I'm a trans. Um, but I I'm here to facilitate the workshop. So I'm here to listen to people and trying to help people provide the information that people are looking for. What would you see as the biggest current health issue or issue that's not being addressed just after the tough years? Well, what I was actually thinking about [00:14:30] is my experience 20 years ago of being in the psychiatric ward at Welling Hospital and on my exit interview saying I was Trans and the psychiatrist saying, Oh, that's your business and not interested and then telling my GP the same thing and being told, Oh, you don't want to go down that path. So that's 20 years ago. We've got these reports. So we're going forward. Um, we're a long way from where we need to be, but that's there is. We're on a journey, and there has been progress. I suppose [00:15:00] we're on that. Thanks, Sally. Um, I run on juice for pronoun. Um, I'm a trans woman. Um, it's a really hard question to just come up with an answer to what's the most pressing thing about trans healthcare? Yeah, I imagine. Probably just getting consistent [00:15:30] access to services throughout the country, you know, not just in the big cities, but everywhere. Um and, yeah, some mental health support. OK. And Sarah, just before you start, Thank you and all the organising group for putting this on. It's obviously important and needed. So thank you. And And I wanted to add also that you don't have to address, um, if it's kind of the question [00:16:00] of what you think is conceptually or politically the biggest issue, you could say that. Or you could say what you're interested in talking about today or or a question that you have right now about any of this stuff. It could be just what you're what you're bringing right now and not necessarily what you identify as the biggest issue. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. I'm my name is Sarah. Um, I identify as a queer, queer woman. Um, female pronoun things, um, she gendered. But I've had a little bit of involvement over the last two or three years [00:16:30] with youth who predominantly identify as Trans. And for one of me, one of the biggest issues has been the lack of respect and the lack of understanding that I've seen from mental health. Mainstream mental health people who are supposed to be assisting and they're not. And I want to try and do something about that in the capacity that I can. Thank you, Sarah. Uh uh. My name is Ken. Um, uh, [00:17:00] I just prefer Kim. I used to probably identify as lesbian, but probably over the last seven years. I just identified myself. I mean, I've had enough of boxes and everything else and trying to put myself on one. Um, basically, I'm I'm here, you know, with Amy. But also over the years, Just what? What? What she's gone through and friends. And [00:17:30] the fact, um, with the health issues, that it's just it's really quite pathetic. Pathetic, pathetic. I'm Jim. And I guess I'm a he, um I can, because I but 11 of the words that popped out of the the little briefings. Health, health care. Really? [00:18:00] So I was I was interested in that as well as the as the, um as the experience of Trans. Um, and the thing I guess that that, um, strikes me is that it's possible to to come up at health services from a number of directions and find that people just don't know what to do with you. And I guess that's, um [00:18:30] but that must be really worrying. Um, I mean, I'd find it worrying as a as a gay man, I guess, Um, just to be a blank wall, um, of understanding. Uh, and and it also sort of strongly as being as what happens to you when you get older, actually, as well. Clearly, um, there's a sort of sense of worthlessness [00:19:00] that can attach to old age. Um, and it's in, particularly in times of economic hardship. I guess as well. It's repeated. Um, so I think there's an awful sense that it could only get worse if it's bad. Now, Um, which, um, is very destructive. I would think [00:19:30] so at the moment. Are you hopeful or hopeless? I'm sure it'll get better, actually, because people are doing things. Um, but I would think it's, um certainly, um, talking with my partner who's who's younger at day. And um [00:20:00] um, I hope that he's around, actually, Um, and just to if I can't deal with, um that he's there. OK, um, I'm a I use feminine pronouns. And I guess, [00:20:30] um, I'd be curious to learn more about access to general health care. Hi, I. I use, um I use female pronouns. And this is Valerie, Um, until we can ask her. We use female pronouns as well. Uh, I guess my experience with health care is mostly to do with mental health, but I'm really interested as a woman and a feminist. Um, what sort of stuff I can do to support trans and help with my and I think [00:21:00] in my way there has to be a following initiatives that are happening and support it. So, Yeah, I'm just here to listen and learn it. Really? I'm Rachel. I use them pronouns. Um, I've had some mm, not great experience. Wellington's mental health system. And more recently, a lot of that has to do with being trans. So it's [00:21:30] cool to be in a space where you can kind of feel that there have been some frustrations, so I'm just quite enjoying the kind of solidarity there. Thank you. Hi. My name is Kelly. I prefer, uh, female pronouns, and, uh, the the issue of, um, health, obviously, is a very dear one to to to all of us. Um and I just want to echo. I think what Amy was [00:22:00] saying, particularly about, um uh uh being and being lucky, uh, being, uh, being being, uh, having resources and being hugely important because I just fill in a little bit with Auckland Sexual Health Service. Um, Auckland Sexual Health Service provided counselling and counselling is one of the most costly, uh, and and greatest obstacles to people accessing trans healthcare. Because depending [00:22:30] on whose protocols you're looking at, generally speaking with three months of counselling is required. Now, there are ways of breaking your counsellor more quickly by saying, for example, Look, I'm going to go off and score hormones illegally, and you can cut down on the amount of counselling that is required. Um, if you are on the view that I lack these hormones illegally and that is quite a good tactic for trying to minimise the cost because otherwise people [00:23:00] are, unless they can go through Auckland sexual health or some other DH P, which funds a service. And I think there are any, uh, the cost of, uh, to counselling sessions is a huge, huge obstacle for many people. So we've got this big financial obstacle, which people face almost everywhere. And just as I said, filling in about Auckland sexual health, they found that that had an influx of, um, or greater demand for their services. And apparently one clinician found that [00:23:30] her entire, um, they was booked out with, uh, transplants. And at that point, there was a little bit of whaling and Nash and throwing their hands in the air. But I understand that another issue was a, uh, a psychiatrist who used to assist died last year, and, uh, that's increased the workload. But apparently they're training up more clinicians. They say that it's only a hiccup, Uh, let's see. But one of the big issues and and what I'm trying to do at the moment is trying to map [00:24:00] healthcare in New Zealand because there are enormous geographical voids. And while the C, MD P protocols, when they came out like a helps to raise consciousness, the reality is, uh and I think that it's absolutely disgusting. I can't even sort of work out how there is an ethical justification for it. Many GPS still be refused to treat, and that means that if you are, say, living in the Eastern Bay of plenty. Uh, you [00:24:30] might have to travel as far as, um, to, uh to get trans health care. And, uh, if you lived in, uh, until, um, I think it was Dr Jane Morgan in Hamilton started offering treatment at the, um, the Waikato Sexual Health Pike. Um, some people were travelling as far as, um, or Huntley to get treatment. So I mean, aside from the the obstacle of paying for counselling, some people [00:25:00] were having to pay. Um, you know, an enormous amount just to travel huge distances. So just sort of doing a little pitch here. If anybody wants to get onto trans advocates Health page on, um, on Facebook, we'd love to try and get as much information as we can and see if we can identify these geographic voids because I think that, you know they need to be identified and only once they're identified is it going to be possible to actually sort of you get in there and perhaps [00:25:30] target some of the GPS who need to be providing health. And it just astonishes me that if somebody can come in and say, Look, I've got a recognised medical, there is a recognised treatment pathway, and it just simply being turned away. I mean, that is, um I've experienced it. Um, you know, I, I was resourceful. I decided that I would target a soft counsellor target a soft. Um um, Doctor, [00:26:00] uh, but when it sort of turned out that my regular GP I had to disclose to him, uh, when he did a chest examination when I was sick, and I said to him, Before you start, let me just give you true confessions. And I said, I'm sorry I didn't come to you to start with, but I wanted to make sure I was only going to places where I knew I was going to get a good, good reception. And I didn't know about you. So forgive me, but, uh, now, you know, And now that we're here, perhaps you could assist me, and it was He [00:26:30] was just horrified. Well, no, he wasn't horrified. He treated me for my illness, but he did not want to, uh, include trans health care, uh, for me. And he was my primary health care giver. Emphasis on was I'm Marie, and I am female pronouns, and I'm here to listen so I appreciate you a female gender neutral pronoun. [00:27:00] Um, but I don't know what the main thing is. There's a lot of stuff. Um, Big one for me was the process around that document a few years back, you know? And it doesn't surprise me that the, you know, probably gonna push out the review further. And they said they were taking ages to publish the things, but, um yeah, I. I found that process to be extremely frustrating [00:27:30] in that, um, but I made a submission on yet I noticed about 40 issues with the document. People take a few. They changed three others in the end. And, you know, there wasn't any kind of response or anything like that. Of course, as to why not change anything else. So just the fact that on so many levels you don't get to listen to, I think Thank you. [00:28:00] I'm I'm during Christmas. Um, I was born female, but my gender has always been really fluid throughout my life. I've never really, um, identified as strictly male or female. Um, I'm here because I've recently, um, completed a PhD which looks at the medical management and support of intersexuality in New Zealand. Um, I guess that I'm here because I only found out about this conference at the very last minute. [00:28:30] But I saw various topics such as healthcare, and I thought, Oh, that looks very interesting. Um, I guess my interests are support for people with intersex conditions in New Zealand and, of course, throughout the world. And throughout my research, there was one something. Um, I remember I interviewed Priscilla, who's now a past education coordinator at Rainbow Youth [00:29:00] and as well as my thesis, as well as gender diversity and gender issues. When I interviewed Priscilla, she talked about she talked about financial diversity, and I thought to myself, That is really something. Um, particularly a medical and nursing education. I feel that that would be a very, very important topic to talk about, um that people there isn't just diversity [00:29:30] of genders. There's also diversity, um, sexual organs and genitalia as well. Thank you. Hi. My name is Jess. I'm hoping my pronouns usually do, Um, I'm here mainly to listen and gather whatever I can from the conversations and people's experiences. I suppose also as a teacher, I'm very interested in how I can get um, access and information. Um, for youth, the win. And, um so [00:30:00] that community consultation document, if you could let us know at some stage how to access things like that, that would be really, really helpful and great. Thank you. Uh, hi. I'm David. I use, uh, male pronouns, and I think like you, obviously, I'm just here to listen to learn. Thanks, Dad. Hello. My name is Grant. I identify as a male. I am a mental health professional. Um, and I'm here to learn. Hi, I'm Nicola. I use [00:30:30] she hair and the hair look. So if we were to summarise as a as a theme here, I think what we're hearing from people, um is we haven't heard any fabulous stories of, um, people encountering wonderful things as a generalisation. And I think the important thing to think about is in our current medical training in New Zealand, doctors get two [00:31:00] hours in which they cover gay and lesbian, and there is nothing about trans health. And there is nothing about intersex health. And there's nothing about gender non conforming. So the stories that I'm hearing back are really not surprising. And I think this is the nexus of the issue is that we have a very poorly informed, um community right across the board. I think what is changing is that there are is [00:31:30] a growing awareness and people wanting information. So I think we do have a doorway of willingness. But there's a huge knowledge gap, and the other thing on the other side is that the the need is growing and it's growing right across. Um, and it was, you know, someone raised the issue of ageing and we we could go around and identify the the subgroups and there are many and I don't think that we are doing this well in any area at all. [00:32:00] We don't have lots of time. In fact, we have a quarter of an hour left. So I think what would be useful is is for the, um, initiatives that are on the table to think about those of you who would like to be involved, the one that I can report on. I was with AAA group of people who went to the associate Minister of Health. Some of you will be aware that this government has a new initiative [00:32:30] around reducing suicidality in new Zealand, and it's quite a large initiative. There's $80 million being assigned to this, and the document that came out at the beginning of the year mentions our community in one sentence in the entire document and we're not identified. And I'm saying we I'm using an inclusive queer umbrella. We're not identified as a risk group and it's very clear all around the world, um, and and [00:33:00] a wide variety of research that the queer community, probably in most places, sits only next to indigenous communities as being high risk and, um, very exposed to suicidality, of course, as are most marginal communities. So the there was a briefing paper written and it was it was essentially Auckland centric, but there were other people involved. [00:33:30] I have to report that the minister was neutral in his, um, hearing, but that it's actually looking like it's moving in a very positive direction. They he has been out and consulted with the ministry and you can talk about that, but it's looking like there is going to be a new statement coming out, um, whereby our community will be identified as a risk community, so that's a positive, um in terms of, [00:34:00] um, an activist strategy that we can do things to achieve. I think the problem is that the deficit is so huge. And then those of us working in this area are are very small in comparison to the need in terms of, um, trying to find uniformity across New Zealand. It is one of the problems with our current DH B model is that each DH B has its own priorities and its own [00:34:30] way of doing things. So we do not have a uniformity and delivery of service in any area, and and our community is very poorly served in this regard. Um, I'm just gonna say one thing because one person mentioned lover surgery, Um, and the access to that The New Zealand, oddly enough, is probably one of the one processes that does technically exist in New Zealand. And not everyone's aware of this. Um, [00:35:00] you can apply or get on to a waiting list for a lower surgery or genital surgery here in New Zealand. However, um, it's a very opaque process, and no one's really 100% sure how this is working the special high cost treatment stuff. Yeah. Um, it happened, it was set up, I think, in 2003 that they would do three surgeries every two years and two male to female one [00:35:30] F, two M. And it was covered by, um, the special high cost treatment or funding pool. Yeah, one of those two. And it's an interesting thing, because that poll only exists to provide surgery overseas where surgeries don't exist in New Zealand. So there has been, um I believe around about 12 or 13 people in the past 10 years who have managed to go through that process so they're still not hitting, even hitting their numbers there. A few of those people have been, um, FM, people who have been sent overseas to the [00:36:00] Belgium or Netherlands, one of the two. And we've heard, um, some feedback from that, um, there have been the balance of those have been, uh, male to female surgeries carried out by a surgeon in Christchurch. However, in the last 24 months, there's been lots of conflicting rumours about that surgeon continuing to, um provide that service. It is an area that needs to be talked about a lot more and brought up with the Ministry of Health. Especially since if that service is [00:36:30] going to disappear from Christchurch and it certainly doesn't seem to be easy to access. Um, Then what is happening to this funding so effectively? 100 and $20,000 is in that budget, um, to be assigned every two years. The last time I talked to someone about this within the Ministry of Health, which was a couple of years ago, the answer was Is that money that's not being spent is being set aside? Um, so in theory, who knows how much money is there? But, um I mean, that's [00:37:00] a reasonable pressure point to talk to the Ministry of Health because they have that service. And, um, it doesn't seem to be getting access. That's part of relates to an issue that I've been thinking about in trying to create any kind of change around this, Whether you're talking to the Ministry of Health or trying to like, I've gone on and talk to nurses, undergraduate and postgraduate nurses at Auckland uni trying to do any kind of education. I get stuck because I'm like, should we be aiming? Should I be aiming for like a bare minimum and saying, OK, can I can I talk about de pathologize and [00:37:30] talk about using the informed consent model so that there's a wider diversity of, um, gender expression is OK for everybody, whether you're trans or sis or somewhere in between or intersex or whatever that, um, but we we haven't even got the really, really basic stuff covered. So like and mental health support seems like it comes up all the time that people would really just like some kind of access to, um, a low cost counsellor or a low cost, [00:38:00] um, psychotherapist or just someone who they could get that kind of support from. And, um, sometimes it's made a requirement, as you've said Kelly, that that people have to fulfil a certain amount of hours of counselling. Um, and that's not international best practise now, either. But it still happens all the time, framed up as something that a criteria that we have to meet, not something that's a support system that's available for us because we have to go and find someone usually in private practise, who's probably really expensive. [00:38:30] Um, so I get really frustrated because I don't know how to encourage DH BS to create consistent pathways of care for us, but also to make them really flexible. So not to be policing people's gender expression in order to access any kind of transition related health care. And, um, not to be just using that same DS M diagnosis model for everybody and yeah, but sometimes they don't even know where to start because, like if people would at least [00:39:00] say Yes, I will work with you. That's a step forward from what we've got going on in a lot of cases, rather than me getting really worried about the quality of how that's going to go or the options are we going to limit people's options. I don't want to create pathways that then become really rigid, and everybody has to adhere to the same criteria to get on this pathway. And then that's and you've got to do this. This, this and this and then that's the process, and there's no flexibility. Whereas now we've got to just talking about informed consent, and I know that [00:39:30] you're you know, you're a expert on this and anybody who wants to do a bit of deep and around might want to have a look at the, uh, the health services protocols for trans care. And of course, in what you do is you can turn up a practise nurse will take your blood, make sure that there are no adverse health conditions such as high cholesterol level or whatever, and might prescribe, uh, that day and it's all done on an informed consent basis. And the [00:40:00] inconsistencies here. I mean, you might go to a doctor who will make you go through the hurdles or if you've got resources and and can get to a bit of digging around, there are doctors. And so I think there are places that we we can find. But again, some of it seems to be almost the best kids secret out. And I think that, you know, as I said, with this Trans Advocates health page, we're just trying to get as much information as possible and maybe, you know, form a decent database. And, you know, certainly if you can dig around and talk [00:40:30] to people, you might be able to find doctors who are much more willing to go down that, um more like a informed consent Vancouver model rather than the um, uh, real life experience or three months of counselling and expecting people to turn up. You know, um, dressed appropriately dressed as masculine or as femininely as possible simply to try and do the civil job on the the gatekeeper. [00:41:00] You know, I, um it it it there, there seemed to be, you know, I have some high level principles about, you know, socialising medicine and the sense of, like the doctors are running a monopoly, basically. And doctors in the book. Really? Um, um but the whole service being quite a way of transferring wealth from, um, people on low wages to people on very high wages without really any particular say [00:41:30] they were shown they're a monopoly. Um, it's widely discussed in some aspects of economics. Um, does it philtre down to, um, people's health care political? Um, the guy next door to me is going to Thailand. Um, it's not a I mean, there's a whole emerging world of going abroad to have operations and all sorts of things. Um, but we don't talk about [00:42:00] it. Um um and I'm not sure how how you introduce the discussion into a a AAA country in which follows also about the tradition of having decent services provided by itself. Um, at home, um, you know, with a sort of cultural philosophy or that controls the, um, immigration into the country [00:42:30] from healthcare expert healthcare trained professionals as well. Um, so I mean, it's just the different levels that the that the sort of experience you're talking about and the popular nature of it. And then there's the There's some some of the economic welfare policy realities which are to do with transferring money to a wealthy class of people. Is there a place for the discussion? We [00:43:00] suddenly sort of say, Well, I'm gonna go go abroad. You know, I think we've got two levels. We've got individual people attempting to access the care that they need right now. And then We absolutely do have a AAA broader debate about, um, our health care system in general in this country and who has access to it and how effective it is and that there has been massive changes going [00:43:30] on, and most of us are unaware of what those drivers are. And the fact that the the individual GP as as a disappearing species, um, that it's mostly medical practises now, And that's come about through changes requiring, you know, 24 hour emergency services and and other levers that have informed that. And so, yes, I think [00:44:00] absolutely. There's the two different places, and And we need to be having conversations in both. OK, and we haven't added very much. And Geraldine, thank you. And the access to intersex care. We have this, um, barbaric and cruel system that goes on in this country with babies. But once you are an adult, um, or you have a suspicion that you might be an intersex person getting access to any kind of support [00:44:30] and service in this country is almost at zero. And one big issue. I'm very interested is informed consent. This isn't in relation to the topic of genital diversity. When I interviewed Priscilla at Rainbow Youth, Um, this is in terms of, um when I think about a small baby, um, a case of a scenario of a baby that's form of ambiguous. Gee, [00:45:00] um, this little baby can't talk. They can't consent to surgery and hormonal procedures. And the issue that my thesis deals with is that, um and I've spoken to a interested nurse about it. She knows specialist doctors who pressure parents to perform surgery on intersex Children because they say blah, blah, blah, and they don't have the surgery. We're trying to be bullied at school and, um, suffer from issues, et cetera, et cetera. But of course, how do we know that? [00:45:30] And, um, this is the thing, um when and Brazil raised that the topic the issue of genital diversity Um, I feel that if there was more education about that in the medical and nursing system, I believe that would really assist, um, not just people with intersex conditions, but the wider population who may not have a classified intersex condition. Because, of course, um, as Priscilla, [00:46:00] genitals come in all shapes and sizes. And I know from myself from, um, spending a lot of time reading medical textbooks as part of my research that boy genitals do come in all different shapes and sizes. So I think where I'd like to go with that and thank you is, um, the New Zealand Society, you know, is is very divided at the moment. And I think the clear example, though somewhat horrifying, [00:46:30] is the article that appeared on The Sunday Star Times. They speaking very brave article by our family, talking about their seven year old and then watching the initially horrifying media reaction and overreaction, and some of the stuff that was written was absolutely putrid. And we could talk about that and then seeing trans youth around New Zealand, um, find their voice and speak to that and and some of the, you know, really wonderful things that have come out of it. [00:47:00] But what it highlights to me is that there is a a segment of the New Zealand population, and it's larger than what I'd realised, you know, saying things like people that support trans Children are abusing them, you know? So there's a very strong narrative in a part of New Zealand society who absolutely does not want us to have access to care and who thinks that anything that is different is repulsive and horrible [00:47:30] and should be stopped so it sits within a context. And I think New Zealand has become a much more polarised society and and when you saw the response last weekend in the paper, it highlights that because it's often underground. But, um, and and Grant and the response to Grant standing, wanting to be the new leader of the Labour Party. I. I was surprised that some of the vitriol that came out and some of the segments of the Labour [00:48:00] Party that surprised me, but maybe it shouldn't have. So we've got a We've got a huge amount of work to do and that does not so that sits there. And yet all of us in this room are are seeking and needing day to day health care. And very rarely do we get respectful, well informed health care at the level that we should be able to take absolutely for granted. One other thing, which, um also a bunch [00:48:30] of rains. Um, I guess it has to do with perhaps mental health issues, but, um, gender assignment, um, is an issue that my the deals with. And I remember talking to the surgeon who I won't name, but, um, we got on the subject of gender assignment and gender stereotypes and things like that. And he said to me that he heard about Children who may not have been intersex, but, [00:49:00] um, they were brought up in a gender neutral way through your stereotypes. and he said, Oh, those Children When they became teenagers, they turned out to be really screwed up. And I thought to myself, Now, why were they screwed up? Mhm. And what support were they given and and were they indeed screwed up? And it was Was it the projections of of a person, you know, I would. I would love some of these people to come to a space like this and actually [00:49:30] come face to face with the fabulous diversity that's here, because I think, um, these people have got no idea. Literally, I've got no idea and they don't see us as beautiful people. They see us as pathology and they, but they didn't know they didn't they wouldn't have a clue. So what we've done today, we've scratched around, skidded around something that's complex and incredibly important, and we've run out of time. I'm happy to, [00:50:00] um, give my email address to anyone who wants me to send out that little the community Little thing about the five principles and informed consent stuff. I can send that to whoever wants it. Once it's redrafted, it'll probably take me another like few weeks to finish it up But then it's Yeah, I can give you my email address. Or maybe I'll get the organisers to send out my email address. I don't know something, but that that'll be a tangible thing. There's other tangible things that are happening, but that's something I can offer. OK, I think that about wraps it up. And I suppose just [00:50:30] as a summing up the the the health care for trans and gender diversity of six people is a very complex issue. And I'm just thinking here. So you all this, the psychological services we need or don't need. There's access to the medical system, the endocrinology and getting the the health you need there. There's access to surgery or lack of access to surgery. That's getting good care in the mental health system for non trans issues. There's getting [00:51:00] good health care in the medical system for medical issues and being treated with respect. And there's the in issues we've had now to discuss a whole range of stuff and, as said, we just scratch the surface. I mean, it's a complex, it it's a complex here, so thank you all very much for coming along and participating.

IRN: 780
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_conference_session_3.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004268
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089562
TITLE: Session 3 - Beyond conference
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Cara Gledhill; Sandra Dickson
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Angela Davis; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bea Arthur; Bette Armstrong; Beyond conference (2013); Big Gay Out (Auckland); Cara Gledhill; Dale Spender; Feminist Futures: Transforming the 21st Century (2013); Germaine Greer; Hekia Parata; Jo Wrigley; Lesbian and Gay Fair; Merv Ransom; Māori; Out in the Square (Wellington); Pakeha; QUILTED BANANAS (Wellington Access Radio); Sandra Dickson; Sheila Jeffreys; SlutWalk Aotearoa; The Queer Avengers (Wellington); Waikato Queer Youth; Wellington; Wellington High School; Women's Studies Association of Aotearoa New Zealand (WSA); bisexual; colonisation; coming out; diversity; exclusion; facebook. com; feminism; gender identity; herstory; history; identity; indigenous peoples; internet; intersectionality; labels; language; lesbian; marriage; marriage equality; naming; privilege; queer; sexuality; social media; tangata whenua; transexual; transgender; youth
DATE: 12 October 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington High School, 251-281 Taranaki Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the session: Naming - who are we?
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: It's my pleasure to introduce your panel today. I'm Sandra, um, a Viking Bogan. Sure, that's what mine is. See how I believe queer Paki hair woman who likes hits a lot, And me, who is part of Rainbow Wellington board member and, um, part of the newly formed QS A. Um, Merv is also more for [00:00:30] a tour de and identifies, as my name is Joe Wrigley, and I'll be your facilitator today. And Sandra will be cutting up this. Thank you very much. Oh, thanks, Joe. Thanks everyone for coming along to hear us talk and to be part of the conversation around naming, um, just to get into it straight up. My name's Sandra Dixon. I'm I'm bisexual. I'm a Bogan. I'm a woman, and I'm ridiculously privileged around being very able bodied. [00:01:00] Um, I'm going to use the word queer in this conversation to talk about sexuality and gender diversity. So I want to start with We're gonna have a bit of trouble seeing the presentation, I think. Can people see it now? People read it. No, not really. All it is at the moment is the two sentences of this talk. Um, and I want to start with the second sentence because it's kind of the bit I'm interested in. The second sentence is a facilitated discussion on the politics of naming, so I guess politics [00:01:30] and naming. What does that even mean for me? Naming is politics. Naming is all about who holds the power Always. It's the power to name the power to define the power to create and recreate meanings and boundaries, who's included and who's excluded. So if we're having this conversation here in a for me, we need to start with the fact that we're living on colonised land, right? Part of colonisation projects all over the world was a naming or rather, the renaming of [00:02:00] place of mountains, of lakes, of rivers, of islands, of seas. Part of colonisation projects all over the world was a naming or rather, the renaming of peoples of ways of living, of ways of organising social structures and families and lovers and relationships that naming that renaming was literally about taking over, assuming power, claiming, belonging, other and in the case of other. So when we talk [00:02:30] about politics and naming here on, and we're referencing that to queerness to people with diverse sexualities and gender identities. We need, I believe, to pay attention first to the disruption, the attempted destruction that colonisation created for for for mhm. If all Maori have to deal with the renaming of place that colonisation enabled and colonise colonisers enacted the attempted [00:03:00] disruption of ways of belonging to with all of that all that that means when you are. And if all Maori have to deal, too with the renaming the controls over gender and sexuality that colonisation enabled and colonisers enacted, then to leave that out of the conversation is kind of criminal, really. But I'm gonna leave discussion of that to people much more qualified than I am to deal with it. And I'm personally looking forward to hearing both the nerds speak [00:03:30] and the conversations that will come out of the Taku panel later today. If naming is politics and we see that playing out around race in terms of colonisation in all kinds of ways, we can also see it playing out in other systems, other social systems of domination and oppression. I'm going to talk now about the words the English words that we use to talk about sexuality and gender diversity and how they've developed over the last 20 or 30 years. And I want to use a local example here [00:04:00] in Wellington of the Gay and Lesbian Fair. So the gay Lesbian Fair was set up in 1986 to raise awareness about homosexuality and to build support for homosexual law reform, which was then before New Zealand Parliament for 22 years from 1986. It operated in Newtown School in Newtown. In the early days, it was tiny. I Is there anyone here who used to go in those early days? Yeah, yeah, me too. It was tiny. You used to be able to walk around and talk to all your ex lovers, pick up a couple [00:04:30] of second hand pieces of clothing and be done in five or 10 minutes. Um, and from the very beginning, stall holders included people from sexuality and gender diverse backgrounds and communities who did not identify as gay or lesbian. The Wellington Bisexual Women's Group, which is a group I'm part of, started paying to have a store very, very early on. We would sit out with our newsletters and our pamphlets and our social group information and lots of stuff that our members wanted to sell, and despite [00:05:00] the fact that we had paid to be allowed there as every store holder had, we were repeatedly asked and told that we shouldn't be there. We repeated repeatedly asked why we were there, and it was repeatedly made clear to us that we didn't really belong. We responded in a couple of ways to there. One of the ways was that we were there in numbers so that it felt a little bit safer for us. The other way was that we talked to the organisers repeatedly about the name of the fair, making it clear that we were. We [00:05:30] were not welcome. That was a conversation that started in the late eighties and continued throughout the nineties. I was talking to about this recently, and I've let Marie know that I'm going to mention this conversation here. Um, many of you will know Marie's work around gender diversity and under six people's rights, and Marie told me that trans groups were having similar experiences at the same time, sometimes choosing not to be there at all because the experience was so negative. So I went to the gay and lesbian fear for years, sometimes being [00:06:00] part of the bisexual women's group store, sometimes hanging out with friends and lovers, mostly both. Actually, um, the name rank called, and I was far from alone and raising it over and over again. But it wasn't until 2008 that the name finally changed to reflect the people holding stalls, singing, speaking, dancing hanging out. At that time, the fair moved into Civic Square and became out in the square. I've got no idea why 2008 was the year that the name changed. [00:06:30] I can't remember there being anything in particular that made it change at that point, Um, but I do remember celebrating the name change with lots and lots of friends from all kinds of sexuality and gender diverse backgrounds. But that tagline can people see the tag line so it's Still Wellington's game needs to be fair in the fine print. Last year I got a bit fed up with this. This happens quite often. I've got lots of boxes at home of, um, different things I've done over the years and [00:07:00] lots of places to talk about exclusion. But now we have Facebook, and I know how to use it. Finally, it's taken me a wee while. Um, I don't know how easy that is to read. Basically, I asked the organisers at the end of last year why the text to out in the square describes it as an event for queer people. But the logo was still calling it again. Lesbian fair, you can see may be able to see there that the response [00:07:30] was that they would put the tag line up for a vote at the next out on the square. That conversation, though, wasn't restricted to that set of comments. Basically, a whole bunch of trends by gender. Diverse people started having these conversations on Facebook on the out of the square page and elsewhere. Facebook kicked off the debate, got more and more heated by the time I got that reply at the end [00:08:00] of that post there, saying that there was going to be a vote. There'd been a number of other really problematic conversations on Facebook elsewhere. This is a, um this is a This is a comment that kind of speaks to some of how problematic some of those conversations were. This is from an ex chair of out in the square. So he's laughing about acronyms I think covers everything with a bit of humour. She swears it all in. It can never end if you try to include everybody. Apparently, this debate has gone on for many years. [00:08:30] Yep, but it's in the heads, especially in terms of the fear. Do you think it hasn't been discussed at length? So that's kind of a stop making so much noise and go away, would you? GL BT WXYZ is meant to be facetious because it really is becoming a joke How this whole queer umbrella alphabet soup thing is going. We're aiming to include everyone while excluding ourselves at the same time, identity politics is so boring and tedious. This stuff, um, this was coupled with explicitly, [00:09:00] um, telling trans people to stop raising the issue, really? And telling a bisexual woman who'd previously been involved in organising the fear that she hadn't raised it enough when she'd been on the organising committee. So why was she raising it now? You can probably imagine that it gave me a bit of a sinking feeling about how the tag on the how the voting on the tagline was gonna go, um, which made me want to blog. So I wrote something publicly about [00:09:30] the fact that naming is always about power and about the fact that holding a vote at the fair with its exclusive tagline was really unlikely to have positive outcomes. Unless we asked the people that were being excluded explicitly what their views were. And I suggested a process around how they might do that, that that blog, that suggestion that we asked people what we wanted our queer community [00:10:00] to be called got me all kinds of hate mail from lesbians. Um, I'm not unfamiliar with getting hate mail from lesbians. I have to say it's, um while I have many, many, many close friends and many, many, many ex lovers who are lesbian and who I love. Some of my best friends are lesbians. Um, it's certainly been an ongoing critique for some lesbians that, um, bisexual women muddy the picture, muddy it up. So while it wasn't surprising [00:10:30] on this particular occasion, for some reason, it really bug me. It really hurts in a way that it doesn't always, And so I took time out for about a month to, um, think about how to progress this. And I just got to the point of wanting to contact the groups that I'd identified as needing to be part of the conversation. Went out on the square, changed their name, they put that up on Facebook and they put it up on their website and this was the explanation they gave. We've changed our tagline [00:11:00] on the logo. It's more inclusive, the right thing to do and a reference to our proud history, too. The the response they got on Facebook to this was unanimously positive. They got more likes for that for this than they had done for anything else. At that point, there were comments from people saying Thank you. There were comments from people, um, noting that this was way more inclusive and there were comments from people saying it was the right thing to do. And [00:11:30] it's interesting to me that that Facebook page now has nearly four times as many likes as a year ago. And our queer fear is now explicitly for all of us, at least in terms of English words. So the moral of the story for me, I think the debates over out in the square over the last 20 years have clearly shown the power lines in the queer community. In fact, the fact that there's been some shift towards inclusion recently is interesting, and I think it's no accident that it's been led by queer people much younger than I [00:12:00] am. The committee now is a group of much younger people, Um, and it's going to be interesting to see how that naming plays out in other areas. I'm really aware and really mindful that it's still operating within a framework and without doubt through the lens of anti-racism. There's still plenty of battles to have around this around naming what we call ourselves and plenty of power shifts still to occur. The dissonance of living in a and not using the indigenous language of this place remains [00:12:30] an important site for playing out in the replaying out of power relations in the queer community. As elsewhere it is. It's done every day since 18 40 before I guess I want to finish by coming back to my original question of naming is always about politics and about power, then, for those of us that are interested in queer liberation for all of us. Well and truly beyond marriage equality, we need to keep paying attention to who we include and who we exclude and who has the power [00:13:00] to draw those lines all the time. That's me. We can get more light now. Should we open this up? Yes. Um, before I start, I just want to apologise if this talk seems a bit all over the place. I've been sick all week, so it's not quite as together as I wanted it to be. Um, my name is Kara. I'm pakeha [00:13:30] as gender. Also able bodied. I acknowledge that I stand on colonised land as well. I ID as a woman and as queer. But that hasn't always been the case. I identified as straight, perhaps more out of confusion, fear all that stuff than anything else until I was about 19 or 20. I think it's important to acknowledge that the way we choose to name ourselves is never set in stone. The amount of people I consider to be friends who came up to me when I was first in a relationship with a woman and said things [00:14:00] like, Oh, so you're a lesbian now provoked rather amusing images of me waking up one morning and realising that I've been wrong all these years. I also think quite a few of me, uh, quite a few people expected me to cut my hair off, stop wearing skirts. And I've also been told several times that I don't look like a lesbian. Despite the fact I've never identified myself as one, not to mention the other problematic connotations of that statement. That's the other thing about naming. It often comes with a set of expectations, which I don't think necessarily [00:14:30] adheres to how we feel in reality. Uh, additionally, identities are not fixed. People in circumstances change, and these changes should be respected. I also think it's important we don't name other people, their affiliations, their politics or their gender identities. This again brings in the importance of taking the time to acknowledge that not everyone identifies with binary gender and that we should not make assumptions about what pronouns people wish to be identified with. This brings me to my next point I've seen a few times [00:15:00] on Facebook and in other social spaces. Uh, people exclaim at why every woman and In fact, every person doesn't identify as a feminist. A quote that encapsulates this sort of thinking is by the oral spender who reads as follows. Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, star no enemies, practise no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions, for safety on the streets, for child care, for social welfare, for rape, crisis centres, women's refuges, reforms [00:15:30] in the law. If someone says, Oh, I'm not a feminist, I ask Why? What's your problem? End quote. So this has long seemed like a bit of a broad generalisation. To me, feminism as a movement has been very exclusionary towards a number of groups. Groups including, but not limited to women of colour, trans and gender, queer people, people with disabilities and people working in the sex industry. People often broadly associated with the feminist movement such as Germaine Greer, Caitlin Moran, Catherine McKinnon [00:16:00] and Sheila Jeffries are some of the people espousing views which openly discriminate, if not blatantly express hatred towards these groups. The endless transphobia of Germaine Grey and Sheila Jeffries in particular, is not worth repeating. Many of these feminists are also anti sex work and contribute towards, if not create, policies that make people working in the sex industry more unsafe. While this may not equate to declaring war in the traditional sense of the word, it is definitely a form of violence and cruelty that bears mentioning. [00:16:30] Additionally, the brand of feminism Spender is talking about fought for the right for white women to vote, not women. More generally, it's also worth noting that the law reforms mentioned may also be ones that benefit more privileged groups in our society. And I think marriage equality is a prime example of this, as is going to be talked about in many other panels. Queer people are fighting for survival. Yet we are told we should feel grateful that we can participate in this institution, an institution that still privileges a certain way of being about other ways. [00:17:00] African American feminist Angela Davis has written about the way in which many movements, including women's suffrage, often involve integrating people of colour to achieve their ends. This is something that also happened in New Zealand and something I think we need to keep in mind when Commemorating events such as women's suffrage and looking at more contemporary examples of, for example, LGBT movements, which should often be missing the B and the T. A similar pattern of exclusion is seen has been seen in New Zealand, uh, in the feminist movement [00:17:30] in the 19 seventies, as well as today, where Maori women were and continue to be excluded from or overlooked in mainstream feminist movements. This is not something I'm qualified to speak about, but also something I think we need to keep in mind and broad brush statements that assume all women must identify as feminist. While I do identify as feminist. Although I distance myself from all the aspects of some of the stuff I've been over, I can definitely understand why people directly affected by these exclusionary practises may want to distance themselves [00:18:00] completely. This is another key point of what? Sorry, This is another key point. I want to emphasise about naming and identifying ourselves. None of us can assume to know someone's reasons for how they identify it. It's up to people to respect others decisions. Um, I'm now just gonna move on to an example of an experience. I had earlier on this year I went to a conference held by an organisation I didn't know much about and probably should have investigated more closely before applying to speak. [00:18:30] The conference had a woman only policy. There was no expansion or clarity on this. I do know that men who tried to register were turned away. But beyond that I don't know if the policy had been inquired about or tested at all. A couple of people I know had been to previous conferences and attempted to challenge the policy. I did witness a man being ejected from Partic, a particular talk by an organiser. At one stage during the conference, I see Intersectionality as a bit of a buzzword. But if there was ever a conference that was [00:19:00] the opposite of intersectional, it was this one. I witnessed one Maori woman presenting on Maori issues. The entire time I was there, there was a lack or so of immigrant women and people from a range of communities. The conference seemed to be almost entirely made up of white women, disappointing for a conference with the title Feminist Futures. There was also a very clear age split with most women being either over 60 or under 30 There seemed to be an entire one or two generations of women almost totally missing. [00:19:30] I went to one particularly interesting talk in which a lesbian feminist said that she didn't understand why young people these days self identified with the term queer. When someone asked her why she thought this was at the end of the talk, she said that it was probably due to the fact that Queer has less stigma attached to it than lesbian kind of going back to this idea of oppression Olympics. I guess when another person in the room suggested that it could be lesbian was a more gender specific term. It seemed to be brushed off [00:20:00] throughout the conference, and myself and a scattering of other young people were approached by people who have been with the group for years. They were really happy to see more young faces coming through and told us we needed to be the ones taking over in the future. However, when myself and a handful of other people did to challenge this woman's only policy, we were told in no uncertain terms that we didn't understand feminism, Women's only spaces. We weren't grateful enough for everything second wave feminists had done for us. And there seemed to be a view that was, um, espoused by [00:20:30] a couple of people in conversations that went on afterwards, that we only wanted the policy to change so that we could bring our feminist boyfriends lovely of them to assume we were all in a relationship with me. Uh, the comments we made about gender like I was particularly not so much concerned about men being able to attend because I can understand the value of women's only spaces. But the comments we made about gender queer people being excluded as well as trans women not feeling welcome were ignored. And there was kind of a lot of discussion where [00:21:00] they said, Well, trans women can come, It's fine. We're not gonna stop trans women from coming and it's like, Yes, but you're not making people feel welcome. So I think that's a key thing to focus on. Um, while this is a particularly obvious example of the dangers of not allowing people to name themselves, I think it's something that can be broadened and thinking about social movements and events more generally slut Walk is another example of a movement that, while resonating for many women who were and are sick of being told they were to blame for their own victimisation, also excluded other people who did not feel they could reclaim [00:21:30] this term. In the same way a conference like this is the same. We are lacking in several marginalised groups, and this is something we need to work to remedy in future. So I guess the main conclusion I'm trying to come to is this People should be free to choose their identities. Um, although there are limits to this, I mean appropriating identities that don't really belong to you. As an example of that, um, we also need to avoid falling into the whole of looking at only certain identities or [00:22:00] only certain identities being recognised and kind of the mainstream LGBT movement as an example of this where they only fighting certain fights and excluding, um perhaps ones that other people things that other people struggle with. Um, my relatively limited experiences in activism and social movements have taught me that we do need a wider discussion about this, and I'm hoping that one of sorts can happen here. So, [00:22:30] um, I thought first I'd say that probably a lot of my thoughts are going to come from a social work perspective over the last decade. So it's kind of a, um, position I'll be taking not only myself, I guess what I've seen professionally, but I think from the world view of I don't like the word clients. But that's the word that's mainly used. Um, but I'd rather say the people the, um that I've worked with in the past. Um, I wanted to talk from a literal [00:23:00] point of view first, because I don't know if you remember. It was about a year or two ago, and Minister of Education brought up that. Why can't teachers, um, just pronounce Maori kids, um, names, literally their names properly? I was thinking, Well, first of all, um, so like if you haven't taken a class, you might not have an idea about the pronunciation. I think behind that people don't have an intention to necessarily butcher [00:23:30] something so personal as someone's name. But when it comes to naming, I think if people need a bit of a a bit of support to get that naming right. It won't come from them, you know, because they don't, I guess, have the tools to get the name right. So I think there's got to be a bit of give and take in the, um, arena of naming. You are getting this wrong When we think of discourse theory, you know, people aren't gonna, I guess, progress in their understanding of how important. Um, definitions [00:24:00] are un unless they're, um, helped with that. Um, the other thing I saw recently was, um and that was, um, in the news as well. And I'm thinking amongst ourselves we call call ourselves all the time. Um, I see, like if we got Pacifica friends and we teach each other, tease each other about being or fresh or whatever, but I think it's the the I've been talking about energy this morning. [00:24:30] You're saying it with and understanding. Otherwise, you're saying it in a derogatory, um, malicious fashion. And I always bring it back to What is the intent of that, or where are they coming from? Why are they saying that? Why are they using that particular word? And there's the other old saying about It's not what people say um, you know, in the domain of naming but how they say it, I think there is another important aspect to remember. And, um, [00:25:00] one of my early placements was at the global education Centre, Um, as an aspiring youth worker and what was really telling, um, when we think of peer pressure and so forth when you're trying to name yourself in those formative years and identity came out head and above every other concern that youth has Now what does that, you know, tell us how important? Um, identity naming of also, um, [00:25:30] mentioned, um, pro, um written down pronouns that I wanted to talk to because they had come up. Um, and I've always just considered myself like I'm a I'm a ho grow from levin always will be. Always want to be. I've always aspired to be like the older ones of us might remember Billy T and his black, um, T shirt and his shorts while he used to read the news. Now, that's all right for, um, I think me too. Bring about [00:26:00] how I want to be known as because I so do not identify with the term um gay. I can't stand it And the reason why each to their own if someone else wants to, um, name themselves as that. But for me, it has connotations of the scene. And there are, um, certain aspects of the scene which I feel will never, ever come close to describing. Um, who I want to be and you get into this, [00:26:30] Um, I don't mean to be too, but there's this, you know, you're either top or bottom and you must, like, name yourself one of those. Are you more macho? Are you kind of camp? And I just thought, I cannot stand it. And it's just, I think, the stereotypical superficial nature of some aspects of our community. I just worry that that has an impact on. So like, if you were just on the verge of wanting to come out or you finally plucked up the courage to want to at least have a talk about it and [00:27:00] seeing that if you're not I, I remember my early days, and it's like if you're not tall, blonde blue, I buffed enough, tanned enough then I couldn't call myself then, and in the end, I just gave up, though I don't want to be. You know, um, I. I ended up like, I guess, giving up the battle of wanting to name myself as part of that world. But then I thought, Well, I don't want to be part of that world anyway, so it was kind of a relief in the end that I didn't have to claim that name to be able [00:27:30] to be myself. Um, the other thing I've seen recently, um is and this, um Sandra and and it's like that's when it becomes political because that name, you know, before it's there, it's beautiful. It's so much more sexy and that than South Island and North Island. And it would [00:28:00] have given, I guess, a bit of, um, yeah, man to the name. And like, they keep talking about tourism and so forth that what differentiates us from every other, you know, and it's like, well, Maori being the indigenous culture that's unique to us. So why can't we name things in that fashion? But again, it became political, I guess, um also marriage equality when that was, um, going on. And I acknowledged, um, David [00:28:30] and, um and I were part of that, um, and it was like they were wanting to narrow it down. Just it was purely just gay marriage. And it was a never ending, um, war that we had going on to try and keep, um, people's mind open, I guess as to what we were really wanting to achieve, Um, I think what I'd like to end with the most important aspect of naming [00:29:00] and oh, Kelly, too, just It's as simple as Do you prefer to be called me or do you prefer to be called move? And just that respectful approach is a hell of a lot of, um, you know, when you when it comes to meeting someone and wanting to get to know someone because I'm all about our community being inclusive, that makes a world of difference as well. Just those little you know, we're not needing a revolution. I think here it's just those little games bit by bit, incremental, [00:29:30] those subtle little things that we can do differently that I think would make AAA really big difference in the big picture. I need to point out that I mispronounce three names right then and I hope you all pick that up. We are gonna open the floor to questions. I need to let you know that if you do not want to be recorded, that what you need [00:30:00] to say before you ask. The question is I do not want to be recorded, and that will and due course be eliminated from all records. So I'll, um, I'll open the floor up. Is there any questions for the panic If anyone want to contribute to the discussion or contributions are welcome as well as questions. Yes, please. So, um, I'm from Hamilton. Um, and I'm part [00:30:30] of queer youth. Um, one thing we've been talking about recently, um, we've had a lot of flak for it Is that that we use in our name? Um, we were at the A R in Auckland in February, and we had a trans woman come up to us, and basically, we were past the shreds for using the term queer. Um, and we've had a lot of trouble with funding applications. Um, for the fact that we use queer in our name. Um, we've actually got, like, a a mini tag line saying that, um, we use because it's a an umbrella term for our community because I mean, our [00:31:00] group is so diverse. It's amazing and like I don't know if because I'm I'm really I've been I've been a for a year now. Um, and I'm on the committee and like moving things forward, but I don't know if it's if it's a new thing with this. Does anyone else find like that term is is looked down on by other other people like, What's the What's the goal of it? They're like, I just I don't understand why people have such an issue. There's so many things going on with that. That little scenario, I think, you know, I think queer [00:31:30] is a contested term, I think for people my age and older, we can remember it being used in incredibly hateful words. Um, and it's contested because it's more inclusive, too, you know, And that that control that. That kind of, um that sense of opening up gay and lesbian space to people who don't identify as gay and lesbian as really contested. Yeah, I was gonna say something along those lines, too. Like it is a term that is contested on a number of really valid grounds. Um, as well as perhaps [00:32:00] Yeah, So I think it's important to think about the fact that you know, some people may not want to idea as queer, and that's you know, And I think as well, I guess for me when it actually gets and said some beautiful stuff about this at Cliff, when it's being used as a word to actively exclude gender diversity. And that's what you were talking about. Partly, Um, that's really problematic. And I guess that's why I opened by talking about the fact [00:32:30] that I'm going to use the word in this way. Um, yeah, it's all of the names we use for ourselves are boundaries. We need to keep defining them and redefining them all the time. If we want to be clear about who we mean Yeah, just briefly. And that's I mean, obviously the Queer Avengers. We called ourselves the Queer Avengers, and there was a conversation about that. But that's also why we chose to make this conference gender and sexual diversity just because, increasingly, it was coming up, that many people weren't weren't identifying with Queerness, even if even if you know, you know, even [00:33:00] if they yeah, so I mean, that's that's definitely something that's been coming up a lot. What I have issue there is not the content of this person's, um, question around the word queer, but the approach. You know, Why would you approach a kindred spirit organisation and basically them in that manner? You know, we have concerns. That's fine. Why can't we have a around those concerns and see what comes out of it? But to just, you know, attack, [00:33:30] you know? And that's why I keep saying the worst form of discrimination is amongst our own and II I still, you know, personally seeing that. And that's why I have a real issue with the approach taken there. It's all in the approach. You know, if she took another approach, you wouldn't have felt, you know, attacked and she might have gained some traction. But and yeah, um, my name's through Hyman. I think I'll start [00:34:00] with naming in the way that the did, um, I identify Spi as a lesbian feminist and as a I sometimes say I'm the only Jewish lesbian feminist economist. As far as I know, um, I also identify, as pretty luckily still say, able bodied at 70 identify as being a 17, and it's quite interesting being 70. Yeah, we used to be thought of as no [00:34:30] longer take it. Um, thanks to those of us who are lucky enough to be healthy, and I'm not, um I still not I don't feel old. Still feel able bodied. And so, um, white and sort of British, Um, and, um no. And, um, have had class and education privilege and identify all those English ethnic privilege very definitively. All those things. Um, [00:35:00] I, um I feel a bit nervous talking today, which was amusing because I talk a lot because I suppose I feel a bit defensive. Um, I want to respond to some of the things. Uh, the first two panellists have said, Oh, the first thing I want to do is name No. I think I think if I had been, I would have named that conference as a doctor. USA conference with the association. There's nothing. Uh, it was and, uh, those things did all happen. I would wouldn't put them identical way of it. [00:35:30] We all speak differently about we all have different experiences, but I don't think it was far off what you said about it? Um uh, as far as, uh, I want to say one or two things about some said first and the first I think that was very interesting about it. And, um I. I didn't know the whole day out in the square history history before, and I think it was fascinating. And I think the final resolution is great, but it's almost writing out history when it says Queer, [00:36:00] Queer Fair since 1985 because it really wasn't in those days. It's interesting that I mean, I think since 1985 was trying to speak to the existence of the fairs. But important history history illustrates, I think what's happening in, um in all sorts of circles in terms of more inclusivity and so on. I don't I identify as lesbian, but I'm perfectly happy to be thought of gay, homosexual, queer. Anything [00:36:30] else? All those names are fine as well, as far as I'm concerned, but my personal identity is lesbian. I'm involved. I get another small cash done in lesbian radio which still exists, has been going weekly for 30 years, and I been managing to do that. Um, there was a gay male programme as well, which was a gay men's only, and that only lasted a few years. And we have also got we We want to keep that name. And [00:37:00] for practical reasons, we need to keep that name because funded by the Armstrong Charitable Trust for Lesbians, which was funded by a couple called, um, Betty Armstrong on behalf of, they were out in their in their seventies and eighties. And, um, and we were We were very much in the community and actually were very much part of a broad and gay lesbian community as well. And, um and we need to. But it's not only the preference, isn't it? We are. We are [00:37:30] a lesbian programme, but we will now, whereas we used to worry about whether we played any music and what did that mean? And now we play all women's music or gay music or queer music that anybody wants to play, and we publicise a lot of stuff about the whole queer community. Even though we're predominantly a lesbian programme and mostly people who identify as lesbian, I think we probably have had bisexual and other [00:38:00] you've had many bisexual. It does have to interview, but I think we also have present you've had many voices and that you know that's fine as long as they're happy to be part of the lesbian radio programme that's labelled the lesbian programme and some of the I mean, I think that sort of trying to be more inclusive stuff because we're realising that ja is happening all the way. But I think it's important to recognise the history in both areas. Um I I can. I'm [00:38:30] part of the people who may be attacked to say and, you know, all exclusionary both in W A and in in lesbian community. I'm trying to to point out things that are more we're trying. I want things to get much more inclusive. But to also recall the history, I mean, lesbian feminism started in the we were the ones who were real outsiders and pushing boundaries. Um, both as initially feminists and lesbian feminist. And, um, we weren't perfect and I don't think we were quite as exclusionary [00:39:00] on ethnic stuff and unaware as people. Now, if I move back and remember back to discussions, there was a lot of that going of talk about that going on right from the beginning. But certainly, um, people reflect their own backgrounds, and if more of them come together, it takes a while before they are pushed into other things. But I, I sometimes think some of the writing about that period is much more condemning and unfair to the groups who [00:39:30] are actually doing great work and work I than, uh, than it reflects the total reality. But I, um I think, you know, there are some of us who still I was interested, that car, that you said that women's space, you know, WS a women's space we were. This is the point. Of course, at the beginning, in the seventies and eighties was that practically all academic and writing space academic space, and it [00:40:00] was important for that answer, and we were still having that both women journals. But it just opened up to me with a lot of people not being very happy about it, because it's more of an academic journal and you know, you can't in universities or politics or any of those institutions have exclusions. Anyway, I shouldn't talk too long, so I I'll stop. But I just wanted to just put some of that historical perspective on it. While I you know, I think we've got to be open to to change. But we've also [00:40:30] got to keep the politics going. Some of us were opposed to marriage equality because we're a lesbian feminist. We were approached to to marriage who thought marriage was lousy for women. And why the hell do we want to make it and so on? So there's there's all sorts of things and that we exclusive coupledom is not good, others putting everything on that. So there's a heck of a lot of resources everywhere. Yeah, thank you. I'm I'm gonna have to wind this session because it's running into the next session. But I'm sure that any of the panellists will be happy to discuss any further. [00:41:00] I'll take the opportunity to thank you all for your good and.

IRN: 775
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089561
TITLE: Session 2 - Beyond conference
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VOICES: Esther Woodbury
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Beyond conference (2013); Esther Woodbury; The Queer Avengers (Wellington); Wellington; Wellington High School; accessibility; activism; autism; coming out; depression; disability; diversity; embarrassment; exclusion; friends; gender; gender identity; homosexual law reform; identity; internet; mental health; neuroqueer; othering; passing; queer; sexuality; support; youth
DATE: 12 October 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington High School, 251-281 Taranaki Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the session: Access and disability.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So welcome to the access and disability discussion I'd like to introduce to our fabulous panellist. Andy is, um, gender queer, autistic and otherwise MA a typical activist and writer and doctor Wood is an expert on the safe driving, which is not super relevant to anything she will be talking about. But she has plenty of other opinions to share, so I'll hand over to them. [00:00:30] Hi. I'm, um I'll try and sort of link disabled driving to this talk about sexuality. It's always nice to link sex in cars, but, um, and gender and stuff like that. Um, so the first point I was gonna make I scribbled this down this morning while my puppy was trying to eat off my plate and like, drag my arm down while I was trying to drink tea like [00:01:00] this. And I was like, Ah, it was over my computer and it was very stressful. But the first thing is, why is excess important? Um, because when you have mobility issues like I do and you get to a place and you go up to what you think is the desk and they're like, I don't know, go down there and turn right, and the only place you can find is like a door. The only door that opens is like, got stairs in it and right in front of it. And it's quite stressful. And there are no signs, [00:01:30] and it makes you super late. And that's because you went back to sleep after your puppy woke up at 6. 30. Um, so, yeah, in general, uh, excess is important because, um, if if people don't have access, then they can't participate. And I think that participating in life and in society is really important. Um, you know, being able to do things with your [00:02:00] life. And that was what I talked about, um, and my studies I was looking at driving and how they enabled participation. But really, it's just about, you know, the means. Whatever means you have need or are capable of getting to do what you want to and need to deal with your life. Um, also, I think access is really important in activist groups for solidarity reasons. Um, because you [00:02:30] have to think about basically what it means is like you have to think about who you're exploiting, um, by not making sure things are accessible or not asking how things could be accessible or not communicating options and not like being wrong about how you provide it and that kind of stuff. Um, so I think that stuff is really important. But when I say access, I really just mean the ability to join in in anything. Um, and you know, there are lots of ways in which the access is really complicated. [00:03:00] Um, you know, it's not just about that. There are no stairs, though. That's particularly useful for me, because people have really different, Um, you know, things that they need for the world to be accessible. And for people here, most people need, like, some form of transport, and they need, um, to have doors rather than like cat doors to get through. [00:03:30] And if you're using a wheelchair or a mobility scooter, you need a entrance way bigger than the cat door and maybe bigger than a normal door to get through it and that kind of stuff. So, yeah, it's just kind of, um, it's really complicated. It's and it also I mean, in my experience is with mobility, physical stuff and access. But there are lots of other ways that people need access and there are issues [00:04:00] of, like, kind of sensory things. Um, and there are, you know, like, there are issues of, you know, people who maybe can't read text and need signs with pictures on them. Um, and they may need, um, or they might need somebody to come with them. So there's so many. There's so many ways in which you can make something accessible. And, you know, the I'm actually writing a list at the moment about how to make [00:04:30] government, like government like things accessible. Um, and it's really long. It's a really long guide. Um, so it's quite complicated, but I think a really important thing to do is like, think about it and communicate What? Um, um, like, find out from people, um, what they require to participate in something. And you know what? Because [00:05:00] people are like, you know, if people if they're people that you know and you're trying to get along to stuff, then people are usually pretty happy to just be like, Oh, can you Can you you know, is there anything in particular that it would be useful and that kind of stuff and people are usually pretty happy to to say, Yeah, I need this and that kind of thing. Um, I was gonna talk generally about my experience of being disabled and activism, and then I was gonna talk a little bit about Queens. But I know that [00:05:30] heaps of time has been wasted, so but there's also only two of us to do what you want to My experience of heathen arthritis and stuff is, um, some things I'm just like I sort of have to deal with issues of, like, tiredness and kind of or pain or whatever is going on. So there's that kind of stuff that might kind of mean that it's a [00:06:00] I'm less motivated or so. Maybe I'm just a person who likes lying around and watching TV as well. But, you know, like there are issues that, um, some people are gonna deal with tiredness. I also, um, have, like, depression issues. Um, I'm really shy, actually, in groups, which is sort of often discourages me from, like a being an activist groups because I'm quite shy around people I don't know. [00:06:30] So I was probably gonna be quite I'm quite emo today, and I've got a headache and my period, and I'm tired. But anyway, I'm quite shy because, um, often when you go into groups, when I meet people, I don't know if you're gonna be, you know, Dick kids or not. So, um, you know, there are so many times that I've, um, like, going to places, and people have just said, you know, fucked up things to [00:07:00] me or, you know, gotten drunk And then, like, I can ask you anything about your body and your life. And it's totally my business and that kind of stuff. Um, yeah. So there's the issue of being shy, so usually with small groups of people or people I know. And people I know have, like, already decided that I'm OK and I already know that they're not gonna be dicks. I'm like, quite a friendly, extroverted person. But, [00:07:30] um, yeah, in groups, I'm actually quite reluctant to join it. Um, also this often kind of like issues some embarrassment about, like whether I can participate and stuff or not. And that can mean like, um, I think a lot of people know there's quite a lot of dramas at the beginning of the year about, um, that being feminist collective and that, like, access and all that kind of stuff. And it was all very drama. Um, but like [00:08:00] a lot of people talked about, kind of, you know what is accessible and is it a thing accessible when, um, you have assistance and that kind of thing, and it's like, Well, yes and no. And I've kind of as an adult always had to kind of make these decisions about Do I want to do something enough to have the embarrassment of being, like, carried up the stairs or, um, you know, carried into things and lifted and all this kind of stuff that [00:08:30] I don't like doing because it's embarrassing and it's really and it's sometimes painful, um, to be lifted. And, you know, it's the whole thing of being picked up by somebody you probably don't know because they're the biggest person who's willing to, like lift you and that kind of stuff. Um, so you know, we not to say that I don't do it, and there are some places where and like it is worth it to me because I really like going [00:09:00] out to music and they're basically, like No, um, like, accessible venues in Wellington. There are very few that are accessible. And so sometimes I'm kind of like I'm not gonna, like, give up the opportunity to, like, do stuff, because it's embarrassing and not painful. And you know, that kind of stuff? Um, yeah. So does that kind of experience of, [00:09:30] um, um, like, kind of joining in and participating and having access to the world outside my very accessible house. Um, so, yeah, um, I thought that's a really interesting thing that somebody said to me the other day that, um, a lot of Children who are deaf or have hearing impairments assume that, um, they will grow out of it because, um, [00:10:00] none of the adults around them have your own parents or are deaf. And I was kind of like, Whoa, that's really weird and sad. And then I was like, Oh, I actually know. That's totally how I always thought about my life when I was a kid. You know, like you think about what you wanna be and do when you're an adult. And, um, um, none of those things were being disabled, you know, and I think that That's kind of part of the lack of access [00:10:30] to the world and the lack of role models. And actually, if you don't make sure that access is very important, then you don't get to see people in the community like I mean, a lot of times I I don't see disabled people, and obviously not all disabled people maybe look disabled or anything like that. But, um, yeah, like, there's not a lot of people that you see, maybe who are adults who have the things [00:11:00] that, you know, I wanted as an adult. And I still see that, you know? Um, yeah, so that's kind of the some of the issues of access. Kind of as well, my personal issues of access. Um, I was just gonna talk a little bit about, um, Queens and, um, disability. Um, uh, I'm not sure. I kind of I think lots of people actually think [00:11:30] I'm quiet, but I don't actually, I don't actually identify like that. Um, but I kind of like I have a lot of, um I feel like I there are some aspects of queerness that I understand and have empathy with, um in terms of like and I and I And I'm not gonna say, because I know that some people talk about, uh, having like a a body with impairments or anything [00:12:00] like that is like, this is kind of like this. Some people talk about that they that their bodies or their gender or their sexuality has been queered because it's disabled. And I don't know if that's appropriate. Um, but there are There are Yeah, I don't know if it's appropriate, and I don't know if I would say that my gender or my sexuality or whatever has been queer, but [00:12:30] it's very much been other and made strange. And, um, yeah, maybe queer. And they're, like, kind of old fashioned sense of the word, and it's very much been made marginalised, and it's very much been made unacceptable. Um, and I think that, um, yeah, like how I respond to gender and sexuality. Stuff is maybe there's some similarities. [00:13:00] Like, um, I think a lot of people who have physically impaired bodies um uh, can often be seen as, um um, well, often seen as asexuals. You know, like actually, um, a lot of disabled bodies are not seen as sexual and they're certainly not seen as desirable and that kind of stuff, Um, which isn't to say that. I mean, obviously some [00:13:30] disabled people are as, um and some people who are disabled don't identify with the gender. But I think that I've often kind of reacted to, like, kind of the gender stuff by I mean, maybe not today, But there's quite a lot of joking about how I'm quite obsessed with short skirts and stuff like that. And, um, and I think it's that part of thing of, like, a bit of a fuck you like, you know, I do want to [00:14:00] be seen as female and sexual, and that's, um so it's something that I kind of push back against, and I So I do think that there's an element of reaction to that. Um, and I very much understand, or I very much identify with the ideas of, like, passing and in some ways coming out because I always kind of wanted to. I was actually [00:14:30] like, terrified and stressed out when people kind of commented on my body because it was like I couldn't pass, you know, and um and I think I'm a lot less concerned of passing than I used to be. And it's taken me quite a long time to, um, um wants to for it not to be something that I'm trying to hide. But even [00:15:00] though I can't hide it, you know, like there was always an element of, like, I would do everything I could to try and so that people didn't notice. But of course, it is the first thing that people notice, you know? Um, yeah. So, yes, I'm not sure what else I'm gonna say about that. But if anybody has any questions, sorry for all the crying. I'm not quite sure where they came from. A quick question. Do you actually, um, spend much time [00:15:30] connecting with other people online through through any of the the groups or just, you know, other areas? What groups do you mean? Well, either you know, feminist groups or, um, um, disability groups or just social groups or or chatting. The reason why I ask is a friend of mine who has cerebral palsy is nonverbal. He is really active on the Internet because for him, we are connecting up with with other people, and, um and then you meet them in real [00:16:00] life and finds that they know you as as friendly as they were online. And it's just he finds it a mixed challenge. Um, well, I spend a lot of time on the Internet downloading television anyway crash and posting pictures to to I mean, I have a lot of friends. That's not really the issue. Um, I spent 90% of my time with feminists. You know, um, [00:16:30] that's not the issue for me. Um, and I don't think that's an acceptable solution at all, too. And a lot of people do talk about that. It's very important for disabled people to be online, but actually I kind of have a big problem with that. If that's like a huge problem with that, if it's like, we don't need to make the rest of the world accessible, because what we should just do is shove because there were people in front of computers and feel like you have [00:17:00] Internet access. So therefore we don't need to bother with the rest of the world. Um, and I think that a lot of people develop friendships and relationships and communities through participating in things, um and not that online communities aren't communities. But, um, not everyone wants to have their communities just be online. And to me, um, I don't really [00:17:30] like me. Yeah, I don't really like many people online. I'd rather actually saw me before. I have, uh, community, uh, like, you know, kind of relationships with them and that kind of stuff. Um, yeah. And I think that being excluded from a lot of work and a lot of social activities a lot of that stuff is about, um, being able to physically be in places [00:18:00] and to be in spaces that are accessible and you and and accessible in lots of ways, not just physical. It's accessible but socially accessible. And yeah, attitudinally accessible. Hello. I'm just a little conscious of Tom, so I wonder if maybe, and you would like to speak next, and then we can open up the book for sure. Everyone's happy with it, OK, I wrote a thing. I'll half [00:18:30] read it. Um, so I'm going to talk. Um, mostly personal experience here and sort of about the emergence of both my autistic and queer identities. And I'm using, like, labels are complicated. I'm using autistic to include a whole range of diagnoses, sort of information processing, physical movement, how I think how my senses work and so on. And, um and queer, I'm talking about both sexual orientation [00:19:00] and gender identity. And, um, yeah, I was thinking back when I wrote this and just remembering as a really small child, having the sense that I needed to hide who I was and not knowing what I needed to hide. So I hid everything and just knowing that it was wrong and with the benefit of hindsight, I know that the ways I had to hide, we related both to being queer and being autistic. And then I was doing some reading for this talk and, um, 11 thing I discovered that I didn't know was [00:19:30] that much of the therapy aimed at normalising autistic Children grew out of that aimed at normalising gender, non conforming Children. And I avoided such practises, luckily, but sort of the dual experiences of being out of sync with and marginalised in the world I lived in, but meant that my artistic and queer experiences were very much tied together before I could identify either one of them and, [00:20:00] um, as a child. Sort of. The one glimmer of gender nonconforming possibilities that I had was that of a tomboy, and that's too excited me, and then was really quickly closed off to me. I realised I was physically unable to climb trees. The sensation of mud gets away from me. Um, I was too anxious to go off and get lost. But then the stereotyped femininity that was expected to come naturally to me was also unobtainable, like I still can't apply lipstick competently. [00:20:30] Um, I try on occasion, Um, and you know, social rules of teenage gossip? No. And absolutely someone can be feminine or masculine, irrespective of whether these stereotyped activities are possible or even desirable for them. And I think one thing the queer community needs to be really aware of in terms of accessibility is how much we link identity and membership with appearance and clothing and so on. When these can be inaccessible for all kinds of reasons. [00:21:00] Um, but also, this exclusion from both masculinity and femininity has been really key for me in the formation of my gender identity. And it's something which is often ignored in narratives that often come back to you. know this was innate from birth. Um, I've always struggled with the idea that gender identity is so some inherent truth that just needs to be allowed to emerge. Um, of course it is for some people, but for me, it's more [00:21:30] complex and ongoing negotiation with the society environment I live in. And, um, reading and learning about disability was really important in understanding how that could work. And another thing I've realised is there's this huge correlation between autistic people, particularly female, that signed up birth people and those who don't fit comfortably on the gender binary, um, who are attracted to multiple genders or who are asexuals. And there's lots of theory about why that might [00:22:00] be a lot of it really offensive. But that's beside the point. I think the correlation is there. And, you know, I've had conversations with these people over and over again who would never see themselves as part of gender diverse or queer communities. And some of that comes back to access in a straightforward sense. The tendency for queer events to be centred around noisy bars, for example, or that we can be marginalised by people wanting to prove that they're the good, normal queers. OK, whatever they call them anyway. Um, [00:22:30] and, um, it's also because people, um, people often see their gender identity. The people I'm talking about often see their gender identity or sexuality, um, as being so intrinsically related to, or even a facet of being autistic that they don't find a space for that narrative in queer and gender diverse spaces. And this isn't my experience or perspective, but it's also something I relate to a little, [00:23:00] and I'm trying to sort of learn more about this and get my head around it. And I think at the heart of it, we need to be really open to the fact that even for people working on and thinking about gender and sexual diversity issues, we can always get more diverse. Um, and and, um so? And I've also been coming across a word that's been increasingly used, which is neuro queer, and 11 blogger described it as meaning. I approach my autism like I approach my [00:23:30] gainers, and I was in a slightly odd position of being involved in queer activism before I really came to grips with being queer or being autistic and although I didn't didn't escape the usual of self hatred. When I dealt with that, it gave me a lot of tools to understand that. And I was looking at it in the context of marginalised identities and a history of political responses to oppression rather than simply an individual experience. And, um, when comparisons [00:24:00] are used as a blunt tool to make a point, they often really problematic. A couple of years ago, within basically the same week, um, I went to a queer activist meeting where people started saying that people wouldn't be allowed to get away with treating disabled people like this. So why are they treating gay people like this? And then a week or so later, I went to a meeting of an autistic where someone said, We need to get equality like all the gays have done. I just don't do that shit. But I think there's, um you know, I think there are a lot of conversations I'd really like to [00:24:30] see happening. Um, I'm thinking about coming out and the limitations of coming out narratives about passing for normal, whether normal is straight or CIS gender or neurotypical, um, about treatment aimed at normalisation and medicalization. Um, I'm thinking in particular, there are debates going on at the moment about whether autism should be in the DS M diagnostic statistical manual psychiatrist Bible thing, Um, and the conflict between not seeing it as a medical disorder but needing to present it [00:25:00] as such in order to secure access to various resources. Um, and things about E Asia from history. And, um, the experience and expectation of sever links with the family are just a few of the things that are going I had, um I'd just like to say, obviously, that was very much from personal experience, and I can only talk so fast, so I'm really open to sort of experience of how people link queerness and whatever experiences of disability in the comments. Thank you. [00:25:30] Does anybody have any questions for our panellists? Well, I can, but you know, of course, you know, disclosure. You know, I'm I'm I'm queer. Asperger's, you know, the the whole range of, you know. No, no boundaries. Um, sort of always sort of asking sometimes really bad questions. [00:26:00] Um, which is? Both Esther and Andy are talking about some of the isolating challenges which I think is, you know, really, really important. But I just wondered if if either or both of you have got sort of ideas about, you know, yes, we want to change society, we want to change all of the structures and everything else. But are there things that other people can help do to support Other than, [00:26:30] you know, like raising awareness of Yeah, the signposting to get here was bad. The the maps weren't adequate. We should have had had these sort of things. But, like, you know how I'll jump a little bit. My my friend down in Christchurch, who's a young gay guy who's really interested in dating, who meets up with people online and then says, Oh, let's go to some they say, Oh, yeah, let's meet at that nightclub because it's really good for dancing. Oh, hello, I'm in a wheelchair. Are you going to carry the wheelchair up? Sort of few things, and he does get people to do that, but it's like, you know, really [00:27:00] difficult. But that's the support the friends do to help him get to places that he can do things and try and stop people from, um, putting drinks on his communication tray and things like that. But like that, you know, helping somebody to get to a space is something they try to are other things you can think of that might be helpful to, you know, overcome all the social gap that we haven't got rid of. You're magical list, don't you? Yeah. I mean, but that's [00:27:30] not gonna apply to public social places like bars and restaurants and movies, because they don't have any obligation to be accessible. Um, they don't have any obligation to, um, unless it's like a newly built thing. And then there are some standards, but the standards are pretty basic. I mean, I [00:28:00] I'm I'm not quite sure I like I'm not quite sure again how you worded it, but I guess my initial thing is no, there's nothing that I mean, yes, I have incredibly good friends and who do do things to make things easier for me and to mean that I can be, um, uh, included in stuff. But actually, that's not the point at all. I mean, of course, it's awesome. And I [00:28:30] love my friends. You know, they're incredibly important to me, but actually, the problem is not needing support of friends because not everyone actually has heaps of friends. Not everyone has heaps of support of friends, you know, like even if you've got friends, they might be clueless and just, you know, they don't get it and all that kind of stuff. But the problem is not. I think personal support is incredibly important as a survival strategy. But that's not gonna change [00:29:00] anything. You have to change things on a societal level. So are you talking more event organisers? What should event organisers be doing? I mean, if we think about activism, Spaces and and, um, like if a group of people say, Hey, we don't want the government to buy a national park, what they do is they start connecting, they start raising sort of, you know, campaigns doing things. If it's something like, um, a bar in Courtney Place [00:29:30] is, um, disrespectful to, um, two young women sort of kissing. And, you know, there's talk about boycott letters or, you know, it's like, what, what are the best avenues to actually, um, you know, organise together around sort of, um, issues. And, um, that was one of the reasons why I sort of did this thing in groups online because, you know, I see it as a possible way, but that it may not be the experience of of other people. So I mean, I think all methods I mean, like, you know, things change [00:30:00] by, you know, you have solidarity with people and you support people, and you be like, Yeah, it, um yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, like like any kind of activist thing. You know, people decide what they think, and it's not always gonna work, and it's not always gonna get attention. And it's not always gonna change anything. But, you know, they still people still kind of join in and they go, Yeah, what do we need and and that kind of stuff, [00:30:30] you know, like it's the same as any other kind of activism you get. You need people and you need support and you need solidarity between groups and one of the like disability kind of organisations in New Zealand. Um, they they spent heaps of their time when they were starting out in the seventies and eighties, um, having, um like showing lots of solidarity to, um like queer communities and like [00:31:00] putting heaps of support behind like the like getting rid of the like, um, you know, the like 1986 Homosexual law reform. They put heaps of support behind it, you know, because they're like, it's the whole thing of, like, liberation for one group of people is gonna help, you know, like it's important. And also, of course, there are, like, gay disabled people who maybe wanted to have sex with other gay disabled people. But yeah, I mean, [00:31:30] like, it's the same as any kind of activism. You know, you just do thanks things that you think will work about issues that you think are reported. And you try and get people to support you and you try and get awareness and you try and make things change. How any other questions? I haven't got a question as such. It was more of an observation. You pretty much just spoke to it, really, as a solidarity and the connections that we can make between so many [00:32:00] marginalisation, you know, aspects of life, and it's quite incredible when you actually sit down and really give it some thought that that is the answer to everything. It's a solidarity and working together. And if every marginalised person on the planet got together with probably beat out everybody else. Um um, so, yeah, has anyone else got any thoughts they want to share or other other things they want to say? Because I'm thinking maybe we probably [00:32:30] wrap up if that's OK with you, too. If there's no one's got anything pushing, they wanna raise. Yeah, this is actually a question that I ask you afterwards. I remember. But, um, I also think he both of you for sharing. I wonder if I could get a copy of the list of things. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I said, it's gonna be on the Ministry of Health website. I think that should [00:33:00] be a fantastic step towards activism is to make sure that when you finish with that list that we make sure that we pressure every government department to make sure they're adhering to it. And there's more people that demand that those sort of things. And the more some things are being forced through, like the Web accessibility is going, uh, it's It's like the the access accessibility standards come in And all, um, main pages [00:33:30] and contact pages of, um, all government websites or or websites in the state sector are gonna have to be, um, Web accessible by July next year. So and then within three years, every page of every website, um, run by anyone in the state sector is gonna have to be web accessible. Web accessible. It means, um um, that website, um, have to be, [00:34:00] like, as intuitive as possible, um, to minimise mistakes. Um, they have to be like any kind of verbal things. Like, if you've got a or if you've got kind of graphs, then they have to have descriptions underneath them. If you've got, um, somebody talking, then you have to have, like, a person doing sign language or and you have to have, like, heaps and heaps of different methods that people can understand the content. And also, um, you have to be able to use the website without using a mouse [00:34:30] that has to be keyboard at all. You have to be able to do it all by keyboard and stuff like that. Yeah, so those are the kind of technical things, and then it it just has to be as kind of hard to make mistakes as possible and is easy to like. Go back and start again. And like, if you've got websites that have time limits on them, they have to be able to be, like, extended really easily and that kind of stuff, so that if people are doing need to do something slowly, yeah, so that's one way that you can make [00:35:00] government, and they're hitting those websites sort of tested by people with different sensory challenges. So, for example, if your official line and use, um, software that can read out a web page to you, then it's actually do that because it can't read an image. But there may be a description that says what an image is. All of the test ones are not having many pictures, but that, you know, it's not true. It's good, but like bad things, I've attended some presentations [00:35:30] to. All right, cool. Um, yeah. Sorry. Um, I think you almost answered my question. You know, I was just like I was just gonna ask, like, um in terms of the last thing you know to look at. Um, So it's not Is it limited to physical? Um, not like my physically accessible. [00:36:00] No, No, no. Um, no, it's censor impairments. And, um, some learning impairments. And so things like, um, yeah, like I mean, easy read text, large print text. Um, um, Pictures. But like, it's basically so that everything is, you know, compatible in a variety of ways for lots of different people. [00:36:30] In a beautiful moment of irony, the, um, submissions on the inquiry into the accessibility of parliament required you to put a phone number in before you could make a submission. Yeah, it was quite fantastic. Lots of and lots of, uh, government documents are, um, like you can't use Don't use PDF S if you want them to be accessible or use PDF S, but make them like, um, have an identical word document because, um, um, programmes that read documents [00:37:00] for people with visual impairments. Um, can't do PDF S stuff like that. So there's lots of different technical stuff, but it's also about attitudinal stuff. Oh, right. Yeah, OK. Yeah. I mean, you know. Yeah, it's basically like, don't talk down to people. Don't Don't look at somebody's, um, attendant carer. If you're [00:37:30] supposed to be communicating with them, make eye contact with the person you're supposed to be communicating with? Don't be a jerk. Um, I'm trying to make sure that make that really clear, That sort of stuff, Um, I'm trying really hard to like. It's basically like courteous, courteous interactions with human beings, letting people know where that I don't think I'm going to get the human beings in. Let people know where the toilets are, you know, so [00:38:00] that they think, 00, this is actually just some common courtesy and it's like, Yeah, it is common courtesy. It's really common courtesy to be like, this is where the toilets are. And, um and if you can't hear me say that, then I will. Or if you can't see it, I will take you to it. You know, that's just courteous. And that's a really big deal, you know? So, yeah, stuff like that, Yeah, yeah, And it's something that I think we can all do [00:38:30] our I think because like when you start work or engage in a new building, one of the things I'm trying to do is find out what the accessibility is tonight and one windows, and it was a an accessible toilet that was locked off and nobody knew the code to it because they hadn't sort of used it. So I was thinking, Oh, when people come to visit, how are they going to do it? So we you know? Yeah. Eventually, I found it and sort of shared the information. I had to walk up and down all of seven floors of the building to actually find somebody who knew who knew the [00:39:00] Alright, please join me in thinking.

IRN: 766
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_conference_session_1.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004266
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089560
TITLE: Session 1 - Beyond conference
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Sally Dellow
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Beyond conference (2013); Carmen Rupe; Conundrum; Emi Koyama; Georgina Beyer; Jan Morris; Janice Raymond; Julia Serano; Laverne Cox; Lesbian Information, Library and Archives Centre (LILAC); Michigan Womyn's Music Festival; Māori; Orange Is the New Black (tv); Renee Richards; Sally Dellow; The Queer Avengers (Wellington); The Transsexual Empire: The Making of the She-Male; Transamerica (2005); Wellington; Wellington High School; Whipping Girl: A Transsexual Woman on Sexism and the Scapegoating of Femininity; cis male; classism; community; counselling; discrimination; exclusion; fa'afafine; femininity; gender; gender expression; gender identity; health; identity; language; lesbian; male socialisation; media; oppression; pronouns; queer; racism; representation; role model; sex work; social; spaces; sport; support; transfemininity; transgender; transition; transmisogyny; youth
DATE: 12 October 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington High School, 251-281 Taranaki Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the session: Transfemininities and transmisogyny.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Right. Good morning. Um, my name's Sally Dello. And, um, I am facilitating a decision. The the topic today is around trans femininity and trans misogyny. So some pretty big words. So I thought just to start off just thinking about some of the definitions, So, um, And for me, I think we'll start with the word trans femininity, Um, and trans femininity. Um, and I read an article recently that often Trans women [00:00:30] are forced to the ultra firm in their presentation in order to, um, be gendered correctly. Um, and that's something personally, I've decided not to do. Um, and there are consequences with that and that I don't necessarily pass. Um, with si women, that's usually fine with si men. They very definitely genuine male. And I particularly hate the word mate. Um, I I've yet to [00:01:00] develop. My response to that is probably Thank you, ma'am. Um, as a way of reversing that. But there's just the the the the expectation that as a trans woman, I'm expected to be, um, presented in an ultra way and that that, um, I don't It's almost a cultural expectation. Um, and in my workplace, I have the impression I have is that people have respected me because I haven't gone down that path. So it's [00:01:30] a it's a mixed bag. So I would ask, um, if there's any Trans woman in prison if they would like to talk about their experience of trans feminine as a way of introducing this is a topic to the group. Um, I haven't really prepared anything, but, um, I suppose I feel like I'm more androgynous. Or but as a trans woman and yeah, that also gets me mis tendered a lot. [00:02:00] Um, and it's Yeah, I. I question myself whether I'm sort of shooting myself on foot by by expressing my gender in that way. Um, yeah, it's complicated. I definitely felt that pressure to be bit of that came out as trains. And but yeah, I felt like [00:02:30] the way I dress is how I'm more comfortable. Yeah, so, um, I've also noticed that, uh, there is a lot of pressure for socially and country to be very friend when transitioning from male to female, and so far in my transition, I decided to try and do as much as they can. Um, and a lot of swearing is evolve destroying [00:03:00] any connections or relationships with people that that enforce or encourage these these beliefs, And that's worked for me so far. But I know there's a lot the the pressure is still there. I'm not sure how it'll end up. Not in the future again, I suppose. Just listen to the two speakers. I've just spoken to the, um yeah, the way I trans feminine varies in the space I'm in in my family space. It's very [00:03:30] different to my workspace, and it's very different to my social space. Um, I identify as a queer trans woman. So coming into the lesbian community and facing the butch fin dilemma, um, and I've got a phrase that I use. Sometimes I want to be pretty, and sometimes I want to be a punk. Um, it's not a either all that. It's about how I feel on the day and what it is that I want to say. The message. I want to get across, um, [00:04:00] trains, misogyny, not a big room for me. Trans misogyny is the way that people, um, treat me treat my femininity as a trans woman. Um, and for me, this has been particularly problematic in the family space. Um, my and laws have called me a child abuser for coming out as friends. My own parents. My mother has told me that my kids are going to commit [00:04:30] suicide as teenagers because I'm expressing my trans identity to me, that that's a very powerful trans misogyny. On the other hand, my workplace has been very positive. They had a morning tea for me to welcome me and to the sisterhood. So trans misogyny is very specific again to the environment that I'm in. Um I I as part of my workspace, I sometimes work in the back [00:05:00] box of Taranaki. Um, people will use my preferred name, but they won't gender me correctly. Um, and that's generally in a group of heterosexual cisgender males. And I could offer the The explanation is that they don't want to gender me female because then they've got to think about whether or not they like me, um, in a sexual way. And they don't want to go there. So they're gender male, But they'll call me Sally. So there's a different groups treat me very different in terms of the trans misogyny. [00:05:30] Um, does anyone else want to speak on their experience or trans misogyny. A man is asking a question about that. Um, if if they're gender you so that they don't have to think about whether or not they like you. If they did gender, you correctly, would that make you uncomfortable? If that was something that they have to address? No. Because I very quickly disavow them of that. That idea that, uh, no, there's no sexual interest there whatsoever. And it's just a, um [00:06:00] it's more a case of being polite, I suppose, would be the, um and, uh, making validating my identity as opposed to, um, keeping themselves safe by misgender men. So that that that's that's my experience of trans misogyny that that, um, at a personal level. But there's also [00:06:30] at a cultural level, um, out of here. And obviously, um, how we trans people are portrayed in the media. Um uh, how trans people interact with health services there. There's a whole whole range, and, um, it's very much day to day. Yeah, um, I suppose the next thing is to go on and talk about some of the the the specific issues that, um, [00:07:00] want to talk about and Maybe the the first one I'll bring up is the, um, uh, the exclusion from female spaces. Now, I have to be very careful here, because whenever I've asked for access to female space, I've been given that access in my workplace. Um, there are the the the guidelines from the Department of Labour and from the human Rights Commission mean that I have They are required to provide access to female [00:07:30] spaces for me. Um, I asked to join the library here in Wellington, which is a lesbian library, and I was the first trans woman. As far as as far as I'm aware, I'm the first trans woman to have asked for access to that library. I was given access. Um, the space that I'm currently working on is around, um, recent on yesterday. No, Thursday night, um, [00:08:00] submission to the Parliamentary Select Committee inquiry into the funding for sexual abuse health services. And one of the things is that that's a space that often trans women are excluded from, um, at that healing space. Now it's not a blanket exclusion. Those services generally provide three services telephone counselling, which is available to anyone. They'll they'll answer the phone and talk to anyone There is one [00:08:30] on one counselling which can be can be done can be forwarded to transform and can be done in the space. Um, away away from a, um a woman who may be threatened by transforming the third one is being in a group of people who have been through a similar experience and being able to share that experience. That is the space that I'm excluded from. Um, and I have to be careful because I haven't actually asked for access to that space, but I certainly [00:09:00] have not been. None of the information I have seen has been explicitly making that space available to me. Um, so that that's my experience of getting access to, um, female only spaces. There are some spaces I don't feel very safe in, and that would be, um, changing rooms at swimming pools. So I'm just not gonna go there. You, um not for a long time yet, Um, but [00:09:30] that that's a personal issue about my safety. It may not be the same for other transport. Just open the just open that to the floor again. As anyone who would like to comment on access to safe spaces Because I've talked about my experience. Others may have different experiences we've touched briefly on. I've touched briefly on the, um, exaggerated hypo sexualization of trans trans women in the media. Um, [00:10:00] and that how How trans women are often, um, there's a cultural expectation that we will present in a very feminine manner. Um uh, and that that writes both to make up and to the the way we dress, um, the wearing of dresses and skirts and pumps and all all the and pearls set up. And I suppose I'm thinking back to my teenagehood. And the portrayal [00:10:30] of the Trans one in the media in New Zealand was very much focused on Carmen. And she presented that that very ultra feminine Um, and this is the the she stood with as Bob Jones in the council elections. Um, and that was basically the only New Zealand example of a trans woman that I had had access to. It was only only portrayal in the media. There were a couple of overseas people [00:11:00] that were available at that time. And I'm thinking of Jan Morris who were at conundrum. Um, but that was who was very much a a written newspaper account, so there was no visual expectations. The other person that crops up to mine is Renee Richards. Um, and again, the the written stuff around here was about, um, pink bra. So that that very ultra fem um, presentation about around the feminine presentation. [00:11:30] Um, and there's a I think my experience is that there's a, um a lot of the public. The teachers have a have a trouble making a distinction between, um a drag queen and a trans woman that as a as a trans woman, I'm expected to be and present like a drag queen. And that's, Hey, that's not what I'm at. Um, [00:12:00] at all this is my identity. It's not a performance again. I'll ask if there's anyone who wants to to speak. Um, when I came out, some members of my family, one of the comments that was made to me was that Oh, you're not going to become a prostitute or a drug addict. Yeah, I was pretty astounded, but also not because, you know, I think positive [00:12:30] cultural representations of trans women that I knew about trying to Yeah. Yeah. So it was kind of it. Um, yeah. Get my I was confused. Well, and other other stuff as well. Um, this year I read a book. I can't remember what it was by. It was called looking girl, and it was [00:13:00] all right. Well, it was It was a very good book. Um, and in it there was a big chapter on, I think, on media representations of trans women. And one thing that she talked about was that in documentaries, Um, for example, about Oh, you know, there's there's more and more documentaries about trans people coming out here, that sort of thing. But, um, she said that a lot of people or a lot of journalists were especially sort of interested if if [00:13:30] they were making one to to sort of capture trans women, getting ready for stuff like putting up online, applying makeup, and all those other traditional feminine things like that was something that they definitely wanted to capture. And it really annoyed her. That was what I eat. And, uh, I don't know, like maybe the the the the kind of selection process that they would go through to try and like the door to find to find a trans woman who would would agree to you. [00:14:00] I guess it's a very sort of like, I guess it would become like a sort of joining, joining stereotype or something if they Oh, it's not really a right word. But if you are, like going out and like searching No, sorry I wasn't terrible. At any rate. Um, yeah, it doesn't seem like it would be particularly helpful in terms of getting a wide range of representations. Now to carry on from that, it seems like, um, media is not interested in seeing [00:14:30] trans women as women. They just want to see the process, which is why they focus on mm. Good. Um, for example, the growing up in New Zealand in the seventies, coming through the eighties and the nineties, the representation trans from the media was invariably, they were invariably Maori. There was almost no pakeha Trans woman portrayed in the media, and I'm thinking that the the two other examples obviously, Carmen [00:15:00] and Georgina Bayer, um, and I would challenge anyone to to, um, think of a AAA Trans woman who has been had a high profile in the New Zealand media in the last 30 or 40 years story that I know. What do you know? OK, um II I won't comment on it. I [00:15:30] thought, um and that that brings on to the the of Trans women having positive role models of young Trans kids because Trans kids are coming out more and more. There's been the article in the paper recently about the young Trans boy who is going to be, um, given hormone blockers, um, and the negative reaction. And there's almost no positive role models for trans men or trans women. Um, and that's not that they don't we? We don't exist, [00:16:00] but the media doesn't want to see us on a positive light. There are certainly being professors at universities who are trans, both male and female. There are people working, um, in the sciences and the arts who have a profile. But the media choose not to Now. A part of that is some trends. People don't want to be recognised as trends identified as trends, and that is an issue, um, so and that complication. How do as a member of the trans community, how do I [00:16:30] provide positive role models for young Trans kids is one of the things that I think about a lot. How do I give those kids and say, Hey, you can actually be of value and do something really valuable in the community, but that that that is never conveyed. I can't convey that to them because I don't have access to the resources to do that. And the media is not interested in my story as a as a trans woman. So I, I think that that that to me, that's a really important issue that for the community going forward is about providing [00:17:00] those positive role models. I mean, you talked about the prostitution and drug addicts, you know that that's that's people's perception of trends. The street work is a man, and that's not a trans issue. That's a cultural issue, and it's an oppression issue around racism and around sexism. It's not a trans issue, but that's that's where people want to push us. Um, and that's that's what appears in the media. It's that very ne negative representation. So there's a [00:17:30] I need to have a positive representation on the media. Um and I don't know how to achieve that, but it's certainly something I I'm thinking about. And, um uh, another topic that was down for for discussion was around, um, male socialisation of transwomen. So when trans women grow up, as as young Children, they are socialised as males. So when they move into feminine [00:18:00] space or female spaces that they bring that male socialisation with them and that that's been, um, one of the I suppose the Excuse me, one of the first places I became aware of that was reading in the early eighties, um, Jani Raymond's the transsexual empire. It did a lot of damage to me, that particular book at that time. But this idea [00:18:30] that that trans women can't be feminine because they're bringing this male history with them. Um, OK, there are some things that I've been socialised as male and the the the the thing I'll talk about bringing up today was the way that I listen to people when I'm socialised as male. You listen to a group of four or five men talking and you listen to a group of four or five women talking. And the way the conversation is structured is very different. When the men talk and this is just [00:19:00] a a personal observation is that there's a lot of interjection and over talking and interruption, and that's accepted as being part of my conversation. You listen to a group of women talking, and the speaker is allowed to finish what they're saying before the next person starts. So the way I listen as a male, I I'm participating in the conversation in a very active way. When I listen in a female way, I'm actually being respectful and letting the person say what they need to say before I then [00:19:30] put my point of view forward. Now that's a very broad generalisation. But, um, people talk about, um, going to parties and all the women and catching all the men in the lounge. And it's because the the conversations are very different or can be different, Um, so that that is coming in in. I think it's more of an issue as a as a for anyone who's transitioning much older, that that's more of an issue for me because I've been in that male space much longer. [00:20:00] Um, and I have to be quite careful about how I how I listen. Um, but that doesn't that socialisation is not about my identity. It's about where I've been socialised how I've been socialised and it's not on my perspective. It's not a matter of male male privilege. It's a matter of Trans. I've been put in that space because of trans depression. Not because I'm accessing male privilege so that the, um I did [00:20:30] the issue of socialisation Um, I think it is a genuine issue, but again, I think that that, uh, making the accusation that I can't be allowed these spaces because I've been socialised as male rather than saying Hey, these are the ways you have been socialised as male. Can you think about how you might do that in a feminine space and need to think about how you've been socialised as being to be feminine? Um, And again, the the, um [00:21:00] it comes down to this idea of, um uh, you know, the the panel that's been cancelled was about, um, talking about the gender binary and, um, gender as a performance or, um, gender as a social construct. Um, that that that we that that's part of that. Um does anyone want to comment on aspects of the the the socialisation? Now I'm open this to any anyone that their experience of male socialisation [00:21:30] or female socialisation, and how you transition from one to the other and whether it's appropriate or not, or should we be trying to to remove this this idea of generous construct and it's just being human? Listen, my experience of what's happened is that it's there's definitely not a clear cut line between the two. And I don't know if the generalise the Trans speaker wouldn't I sort of like [00:22:00] I've picked up a real mission. Um, and you know, some. Sometimes that's useful. Sometimes it's not. There's certainly a lot of stuff that you like and learn, Um that, you know, it was quite difficult and intuitive to learn in the first place as a defence mechanism. [00:22:30] But also the socialisation argument or the socialisation idea has definitely got some issues and that it tends to presume there's this universal shared experience among people raised as girls raised to be woman and that there aren't any differences along the lines of class or race or disability or anything like that. And and that's [00:23:00] blatantly untrue. So it's sort of that failure does rest on privileging agenda of socialisation Above all else which is very questionable, I think. I think it also really minimises the individual's agency and how much they, um, contribute to their own self [00:23:30] and what they what? They learn from socialisation what they take from it, who they become through that process. So yeah, it sort of suggests that we are who we are raised as rather than who who we decided to be ourselves. I was just chime in and say around the socialisation thing that my experience as a fat [00:24:00] girl and a fat child was that the idea of femininity passed on to me was quite different in maybe other ways. And so like that, you know, when you talked about mate being used with you, mate is used with me as well. Um, men says men quite commonly use it to tell me that they're not attracted to me, which is like sweet cool. I'm not interested. Let's move along. So, like, it's interesting how sometimes those things intercede when you're not the right sort of femininity, you know, like I am. I think [00:24:30] the assumption that men are socialised to be male as a a huge amount of growth is so wrong because, for example, growing up as a daughter a really trying to get in touch with their family that everyone has. I mean, my sister and I both grew up without a mother role model, but I think that parents [00:25:00] are there even in situations where they're not where my dad wasn't attract, he was so in touch with that feminine side that the assumption that he's completely socialised is made kind of unhelpful. Yeah. Thank you for contributor. Um, I just, uh, [00:25:30] decision with this council. Um, and I just want to touch on that briefly, because it, um it was around deconstructing sex and gender. Yeah, um, the the idea that gender is a social construct or that, um, sixes between your legs and gingers between your ears. Um, so that there's this, uh, it's not my background. My background is as a physical scientist. Um, [00:26:00] So, um, this idea that gender is a social construct Now, I would actually put one more word in there, and I'd be quite happy with it. And it's gender expression as a social contract, the way gender is expressed, and that varies from culture to culture, you know, gender identity. My innate sense of whether I'm a male or a male or female for me, and there's a significant body of scientific work. I mean, that's That's one of the things that was important to me in coming out was to to track down that science and understand [00:26:30] medically. What it was that I had is that there are physical structures in the brain that give me my gender identity. There's a simple body of work now that that actually backs it up. Um, and so the gender is not just a social construct. It also has a physical. There are physical structures in my brain that give me that gender me. And that wasn't for everyone. Uh, just to carry on with that really briefly, Um, [00:27:00] What's again? Julia is really good. She goes into detail, quite uh, a lot of detail. And she argues that, um, gender is biologically inspired but also socially encouraged. So gender is both, um, something that is encouraged by biology but also encouraged socially, so you can't say it. Strictly gender is from sex or gender is from well to me that there there's two bodies of knowledge. There's the physical medical body of knowledge. And there's the social, [00:27:30] um, arts body of knowledge around gender from the gender studies and the women studies, and that if you're gonna you've actually got to combine the two and get something that comes out that combines both sets of knowledge, and that's around. The gender is both a biological gender identity as as a biological basis. But gender expression, the way I express my gender is a is a social a a social constraint, and the the the challenge for Trans people was they were actually we're actually crossing that boundary and that that's the challenge to, um, [00:28:00] the bulk of society that people should not cross that boundary. And here we are, challenging that boundary very openly. Um, the next topic II I sort of want to talk about is maybe the, um, racial differences in the way trans oppression or trans misogyny and trans fem are are expressed. And in New Zealand, I've already touched briefly on having the examples of the media being Carmen and Eugenia, [00:28:30] who come from a a Maori background. Um, and um, I was thinking, um, having the words. But, um, in culture and to culture is a A similar, Um, a group of people with similar identities. Identity issues. It's not. They're not equivalent. Um, but not not a 1 to 1 correspond being trans or transgender. But they have There are similar identities within that group and different cultures. The point I [00:29:00] would like to the observation I would make is that, um and our society in New Zealand was very trans, very transphobic, very homophobic. That was my family environment environment. I grew up in someone who grows up in a different culture and Samoan culture. Um, doesn't have that, um because of the the the historical, um, presence of anyone that within that culture there is [00:29:30] a, um an acknowledgement that that is a valid identity. So that when I in New Zealand society, when I interact with people, um, predominately in the in the environment and people misgender me and that my identity, that's trans misogyny. And but someone coming from a different culture from a Samoan culture and dealing with those, um, those the issue [00:30:00] that the same experience I experience because in their own culture, they accept your identity is much more accepted. They're probably not seeing it in the frame that I am in terms of trans misogyny and, um, Transphobia. They may be seeing it in the context of racism, that their experience it's not transphobia. It's actually racism I'm experiencing. So what I experience is transphobia may be experienced by someone from a different culture. Is something very different? Um, and [00:30:30] mm that, Yeah, I suppose that the that the it it's just being aware of allowing people their own experience and actually validating people's experiences, as opposed to imposing my experience as a as a global experience on everyone else. Um, does anyone else want to speak to that? I I'd like to leave it [00:31:00] there because I don't think it's It's valid for me as a pakeha woman to to go any further into that without input from people from different cultures. There's a note note in the in the notes for the the session. There's a topic a around, um, the sexualization of trans people in queer spaces. Now, uh, this is not something that I'm personally familiar with. Um, it's not something that I've experienced, um, or something that Megan wants to bring up. So I can't really talk [00:31:30] to it, But if there's anyone Who here who wants to talk about that? I'm providing a space. It will become to open up the floor, so to speak, at the end of your stuff. Well, I, I made a living. So it's not that this is not prepared. I'm I. I wanted to facilitate the discussion, so we've had some discussion. So I'm quite happy to open the floor now if people want to make a contribution, I mean, I, I would I [00:32:00] would like maybe a minute or so at the end just to sum up. But, um, if people want to start, if I If I open the floor to just people to comment, I've got to start like I'm doing a lot of listening. So, I, I don't often speak for anyone else, but, like, I wouldn't take the to be anything more than just awkward listening to an extent. But, um What I guess I'm really interested is that I guess I see myself as an ally, um, and try to do my best, but I definitely could do better. [00:32:30] Um, one of the things that I found interesting, especially when career first started up, was the way I work, which um, trans issues and queer issues overlap and are sort of put in the same box but aren't necessarily and that there were so many interesting discussions about how not all trans issues are very queer issues. And I think I find it really interesting. And it's something that was definitely brought up and something that became a lot more aware of. I was kind of interesting in people's [00:33:00] thoughts on that. The the the the trans issues are queer issues in the sense that obvious that people who are trends don't necessarily always you could be straight. You know, straight trends are not issues. See yourself as a weird person or that not all the issues were fit into queer space. At least the one that I was engaging with and listening to, um, wouldn't necessarily seem to be fully space. Um, just [00:33:30] put out some and I've been curious about in terms of people's good experiences. Yeah, uh, do trans issues have to be considered career issues? Yeah, there was. I think the point is that they often box together as being one and the same. When did not. There's just a lot of parallel and O over at times, Uh, and how to and how to engage with that, you know, as someone who wants to be supportive and, um [00:34:00] um, just as perfect as possible within this discussion frame, uh, framework of sort of navigating that space and just trying to be more informed and literate around these questions at this time. Well, I suppose just to comment to that that the the trans community is a very heterogeneous community. Um, and I suppose that the the obvious when I've seen, um, informational data on, um, sexual [00:34:30] orientation in the trans community, it's generally fallen out in the 30 30 30 10% framework. So 30% heterosexual, 30% are homosexual, 30% bisexual or pansexual, and 10% are asexuals that, um, that that's very diverse. Some trans people want to fit in seamlessly into the community and not be seen as Trans. Some people are quite open about being treated so that there's, [00:35:00] um, the one. I suppose the one unifying issue for the trans community is probably around health and access to health issues. Um, and, um, there's a session after this on that very issue, so I don't want to go into that any detail here so that that that my observation that that that, yes, there are the trans community community is so diverse that to talk about having transpacific issues, that there are issues that are specific [00:35:30] to this different groups within that community, there's no there's actually no homogeneous trans community would be my observation. Um, I was wondering about how, um how classism might be emerging within trans politics, because I remember, um, seeing in the paper there was a The Auckland Council had released a pamphlet about wanting to recriminate [00:36:00] street prostitution. And, um uh, there was a There was a Trans woman academic who was kind of crying foul at the stereotype that all trans people were street workers and she was like, No, some we're not. It was a kind of no, we're not like those trans women where, you know, the trans people I know are lawyers, um, and high people. So I'm kind of wondering about, um, the politics of respectability and trans [00:36:30] movements. If that's come up much, I suppose the space I'm aware of that happening is, um it's actually like written by IMI Kayama, who is our a female identified insect, uh, woman of colour out of the States. And she was writing about trans access to the Michigan Women's Festival Women's Music Festival. And it's a festival where trends are excluded. No trans trans [00:37:00] men are allowed, trans women are excluded and that there was within the trans community itself. No white middle class Trans said. Well, we've all had surgery. We should be allowed because we're surgically the same. Our physical appearance is the same as the woman, but that those that haven't had surgery and it was often people of colour and, um, people from the lower classes that that, um they should be excluded because they [00:37:30] and that didn't Emma's point was it wasn't a transition at all. It had become a class and a race issue. Um, so I think again, this is this right Intersectionality, we've got to be very careful. And I'm aware that I'm speaking as a middle class pakeha woman and that, um, my trans experience is very different to someone who comes from a different culture or a different class. [00:38:00] Now I it doesn't invalidate my experience. My experience is still, um, that is my experience. It's my lived experience. I can't change that, and I can't change many other things. But it's about being open. And the the and saying that we take, for example, the the street is I'm angry because there's a negative portrayal of trans women and there's no analysis that they're just seen as a problem rather [00:38:30] than, um, what resources does our society provide to those those trans women to, um, access excess jobs, access, um, access, health care, the things that are available to me as a middle class woman, friends, one that are not available to them because of race and class issues. So it it's difficult. Yeah, heard in the [00:39:00] states that, um, Dennis Bay was concerned with because there was a, um I think there was some quite wealthy, you know, comparatively wealthy and high profile trained person who was wanting to push a lot of money at the campaign to, um, repeal Don for the French people. He was in the military, and he was saying that, um, you know, it's quite easy for politics to get swayed by, You know, one person with a lot of money. [00:39:30] Yeah. I mean, that's, um that's always an issue. If you got money, you can You can achieve things if you haven't got money. It's a lot harder and a lot more work. And a lot more energy is required to to do it because I have to do the work myself as opposed to here. I want you to do this. I'm gonna pay you. Um but But, um, with all the other things going, we need to maintain an income. Look after my kids, um, to do activist work as well and be effective in that that work is [00:40:00] and edit and a difficulty. It's not that I don't want to do that work, but my capacity to do that work is oh, I have a question, Um, in regards to, um about, um, transit presentations in the media in my observation that there's sort of, like, two. I mean, there's sort of, like, two sort of stereotypes, one of them being like the secret [00:40:30] sort of Southeast Asian trans person who surprises some like, you know, client into, like some sort of sex burger surprises the like. I know it's shocking. It's a hilarious joke. I can, um I think Bridget Jones is the age of reason I think. And also maybe the hangover part, too. I haven't seen that. I heard of it. Oh, Jesus. Um, the other kind is like, I think for the last time I saw it was on finding [00:41:00] his own right where, um, I think he goes to a R break with someone, Um, like some guy, because natural transition. But like in those in like in that case, it was sort of a I think that character was sort of like It's like a guy with, like, a wig and like a dress. And, you know, it was very much like that person is obviously friends. Look, you know, like it's just so obvious. It's like, doesn't it doesn't need to be that obvious. I don't know. I guess it's just the audiences who might not pick it up otherwise because they're just [00:41:30] really innocent and something. But I don't know, I was wondering if there was any other like any other representations or any other things that annoyed people. So it's kind of like the two options are either a really big caricature or like sexy three, basically because, you know Oh, no, I was attracted to this person and they turned out to be Trans. My masculinity is now threatened by yeah, maybe the two options. Yeah, So if I was wondering, Like what Other? [00:42:00] Like, what was what? How people might like Trans People would be depicted in me. And like, what? How would we go about what characters would we kind of want to see to either that or like I don't know? Wouldn't it be like the same characters as everywhere else is not really an issue, But I think it's like a common thing with It's not just a trans issue. It's like a If you're not a white middle class, this man or woman on television or in [00:42:30] movies or whatever. It's hard to get a complex portrayal of a complex character because the issue becomes the issue, you know, like, Well, it's kind of like, Yeah, it's kind of I mean, that's kind of the obvious way to, you know, to have a trans character who's a normal character like like, you know, whatever. Just like have it not be a thing. But then, um, if they weren't going to talk about it, if they were watching a film, if they weren't talking about any of those particular issues, then you may or may not know it wouldn't be relevant to the story. [00:43:00] But, um, what if they were going to talk about trends issues? How would Sorry, I'm not sure what I'm not sure, but I think it would be nice to have, like, representations of trans people, which, you know, like talk about the fact that they're Trans and some of the stuff that they're dealing with in their lives. But not just be like talking about surgery or all about this. You know, scene of this transformation, where [00:43:30] this person puts on makeup and becomes a completely different person from how they look before and just real stuff like, you know, stuff that focused on aspects of the person, um, which are not specifically about them being trained but also stuff about them. Being being Trans is the defining train, but it's still part of that. Like train, [00:44:00] people have issues because we're trans, but we also deal with a lot of other stuff in our lives and just like everyone else, you know, we're not one dimensional people. And when I was talking about, like, just be characters like everybody else. I didn't mean that that they would be invisible. I mean that it would be like a non issue like that. They could experience a range of experiences. Like sometimes the most complex characters that we see are the ones that are the, you know, the most normal. Like this. [00:44:30] You're allowed to be a total fuck up if you're a white woman and girls or whatever, but you can't be a total fuck up. If you've got some other issue that's hard to talk about, you know? Whereas wouldn't it be nice if there could be a character who was Trans and who was a bit of a fuck up? But it wasn't like a, um It wasn't in the normal way that the normal way. But, you know, like when we were talking about being a drug addict or a prostitute, that those weren't the issues that maybe it was they couldn't cook or [00:45:00] like, you know, they keep breaking all your shit. You know that bad flatmate who you know, cracks all your stuff. I guess it's because at the moment, if someone is trans in the same way, that if someone in the media is gay or queer or a person of colour, they have to be almost like a a perfect representation and be everything to all people. And so if their experience doesn't reflect like the homogenous [00:45:30] experience, then they get credit. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I kind of wonder if that's particularly a thing for trans women as well, because like any woman like any woman, character in a show has to be. There's much more pressure for them to be likeable and relatable. Um, and that's the same thing for like, um, women writers and so forth. You have to be able to identify where you get these shows with men where they're [00:46:00] quite complex and not very good people and so forth. But you are still encouraged to be sympathetic towards them, like in spite of or because of their issues. No, I did see some news report or something like they were saying, like, top 100 or top 1000 or something like that. Movies. None of them have any, you know, friends, characters with them and something like, I suppose the other thing I just like to throw into [00:46:30] the room at this point is the one positive portrayal of a complex trans character. Is Haley in Coronation Street? I don't either. I'm just aware that that that's a character who's been in a long running soap opera for many years and who went through a transition in marriage and a whole lot of other complex issues besides being Trans. So it was a complex portrayal of a re and [00:47:00] sympathy betrayal of a trans character, Um, but that that that given that environment that that long wearing soap opera, you were able, the writers were able to develop the character. Whereas a lot of the, um, a lot of films, there's a very short time frame and the ability to develop a complex character is a character caricature. Yeah, whereas in in the the movies we talked about the, um, [00:47:30] the case of men and wigs. Um, that's a very common movie character, because I can't name those off the top of my head, but I'm certainly aware of half a dozen movies with that. That's the character that's preserved, presented as a trans woman and or I hate it. Yeah, this is also the transformer serial killer. I'm sorry. I'm just thinking of sort of media representation [00:48:00] of trans women and two that come to mind that I know have been problematic. But I think quite different reasons is, um, Felicity Huffman and Transamerica. And then also, um, what's her name? The woman in, um, Orange is the new black. I can't remember who the actress name. Yeah, her cox. And, um, I find it. I don't quite know exactly what I'm saying here. I just kind of wanted, like, they're the two people that immediately spread to my living cop suspicion [00:48:30] because I think on the one hand, it's really great, like her. And I don't know how many of you guys are familiar with orange is the new black, but it takes place in a women's prison. And so there are many, many issues with this show that I don't really want to touch on. But the, um, one thing that I I quite like about how they characterised her is that she doesn't fall into the stereotype of the drug, a drug addict or the prostitute. She's not in prison for those kind of crimes, and [00:49:00] her crime is still connected to her being trained. So it's not perfect, but it is still It was gratifying for me to see that portrayal. And I'm just kind of wondering if anybody else wanted to comment on that. Either they liked it or they didn't like that. Or they kind of like just thoughts that they might have may have seen that show. What were the problems that you were thinking of in terms of? Ah, but I like I know that people were, um [00:49:30] it was a bit of I don't know it very well because, like, I haven't seen it because I do remember seeing commentary being like, Why have you gotten a CIS woman and butch her up for, like, having a better term to make her look like a trans? Uh, sorry. Like to make her look like a trans woman. So they got. Instead of getting an actual Trans woman actress, they got a woman and made her look more manly, if you know what I mean. And like I, I feel like that's just a really great way of raising [00:50:00] an entire sector of our population because that's the question that comes to mind for me, is how many trans women and me and film and television are portrayed by transom. Yeah, exactly is the only one that I think I can think of. There were actually some of the transport, all worth it, but not very. I see. But I just remember that that was the idea. Looks like a OK, [00:50:30] I see. Um, nearly out of time. Two or three minutes just to to wrap up. Um, just to listen to discussion, Um, as 11 point I would like to make in terms of the media. And that's the the programmes that my Children watch nine and 10 year old, um, watching the comedies on TV one TV 21 TV four, whatever it is. And invariably the portrayal of people crossing gender boundaries is used for laughs in a negative way. That is the message [00:51:00] that our that my Children are receiving on a weekly basis. Um, for me, that's probably the portrayal of trans people in the media That's at that level that it's the most problematic for me because I can't combat that in any effective way. Um, we're we're about at the end of the session. Um, so I'd like to thank you all for coming and and for listening. Um, you've made me work really hard for me. But, um, it's OK. [00:51:30] I hope, um, you've got some things you can take away from us. Um, and just as anyone who would like to make some final comments to the group, um, I wanted to say and I should say this in the beginning that, um uh, my partner, uh, I met her actually at I actually met her at the last, um, conference that I went to. It was a number of years ago in Auckland, but, um, she was on a transgender panel. And one of the things she said that attracted me to her was [00:52:00] that she brought up the That being, um a trans woman doesn't necessarily obviously mean that you have to start behaving in traditional feminine ways. And, um, she, like she herself is very androgynous, um, by her own character. And she genuinely doesn't give a crap about what people think of the way that she, um what she chooses to dress and, um, doesn't make any any particular effort to like, which is something to be happy about. I think I always be brushed, [00:52:30] but, um, at any rate, I have huge amount of respect for her for doing so, you know, and being himself even, you know, just being himself in an even more nontraditional way. Yeah, thank you. Say one thing, Um, it's, um, transgender friend. And she had gone right through the whole things with the prostitution a lot and come through the other end of that and one of the things she suddenly [00:53:00] said, which I had never thought about before. She said I pay taxes and that was something because most of us do. Anyway, you don't think that other people will take that as something that, but for her, that was very special because it meant for her that she was part of society and she was paying her way as everybody else. And I think that's another thing that in looking at, um, people like [00:53:30] in this case, certainly transgender people to know that they are paying taxes to know that they are part of a society that doesn't recognise a lot of things, but that many of them are paying tax taxes and some are paying quite high taxes the same as everyone else. And that's just something because being a taxpayer I, I just never thought of it as being an issue. But when somebody had said they'd come through that and quite proud He said I pay taxes [00:54:00] now. I thought that's something I never thought of as a mission. And but for her, it was something to say. I am part of you. You are part of me. Thank you. Ok, thank you very much.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089559
TITLE: Keith King profile
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VOICES: Keith King
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; Anglican Church; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Bill Subritzky; Christianity; Civil Union Act (2004); Elizabeth Moberly; Exodus International; Grapevine magazine; Group Life Laboratory; Homosexuality: A New Christian Ethic; Homosexuals Anonymous; Keith King; Peacemakers Trust; Rule Foundation; United Kingdom; Waikato Times; accident; ageing; assimilation; children; church; civil unions; coming out; community; compassion; death; exorcism; family; gay; hypocrisy; identity; language; mainstreaming; marriage; marriage equality; media; older age; open relationship; relationships; religion; residential care; rest homes; retirement; sexuality; spirituality
DATE: 9 October 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Keith talks about spirituality, discovery and ageing.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, I. I was born in England. I was born in Wimbledon, in England. Um, I'm I'm one of four Children. Um, and I have an older brother four years older, and I have and then my parents had a second family. So I have a sister who's 16 years younger and another brother who is 18 years younger, maybe 19 years, 18 years younger. So there's a quite a big gap. So it's like two families. Um, I and I was I I we we we moved into [00:00:30] a, um I mean, I come from a sort of a fairly, I guess you call it middle class. Fairly wealthy. Um, background. We, we we we moved into the country. My my parents ran a business and, uh, so I I grew up just outside Tomb Bridge. Well, most of my growing life. Um, and at the age of 17, I decided to, um, to come Well, you know, the short story is just decided to come to New Zealand and stayed with some some friends of my mother. And [00:01:00] and, uh, but then, prior to that, I had, uh I had some surgery and I I met my wife to be, and we corresponded for a year. I went back to England, got married in 1970 then and then came back here permanently with my entire well, my mum and dad and my younger family, uh, all came over together. So we settled in, um, on the north shore. We started a business here. We [00:01:30] had, uh, we had, um, two Children. Uh, then, um and, um and then, uh, about 1972 I guess it was, um, yeah, my wife's parents came out from the UK to stay with us, and we were touring around the south Island, Had a had a motor accident. My wife's mother was killed in that, and I had to identify her body. And that was my first encounter with death. And that really set me off on on a quest, [00:02:00] I guess, for the meaning of life, that would be my thing. And and I mean again, the short story from that was that I entered into the, uh, aa ministry a ministry, and, uh, and and I was ordained in about, uh what are we up to? Late 19 seventies as a priest and and I, I was initially curated at, uh, and I was vicar up on the Coromandel Peninsula, and and then, uh, and then I'm not [00:02:30] sure how far to go with this, because we need to go back a bit in terms of my gay, uh, discovery. Um, but, um, but I, um, as I say, I was vicar on the peninsula, and that was a fairly community based. There's a whole lot of communes and stuff up there and that, and I was really interested in, uh, in in in exploring Christianity from a community perspective. So, uh, again, the short story is that we we formed a trust and the peacemakers trust, [00:03:00] and we had 10, 10, 10 acres of of property up in and and we we we formed a community Christian community. Um, and, uh, and and but that that was a hugely stressful I mean, I was there for about eight years, and, uh, I burnt out. Uh, then I went back into the into the parish ministry again. Uh, but I mean, by that stage I had this. I mean, my journey had moved a whole long way. Uh, I was vicar at sorely for a while, [00:03:30] and then from from not Grey Lynn from Glen, I should say, And from from Glen, I actually came out there and and and And that was, uh and and that really was the end of parish ministry for me. Uh, I I then I I form. I then formed a company of my own and I started selling my services as as a minister, so I contracted. So I I ended up doing contract. I was I was the chaplain at, um, the [00:04:00] Mercy Hospital. Uh, for a time, uh, and I did some other chaplains at care facilities, and I started doing work and and I mean, that just sort of blossomed from there, So that's a potted bit up to there. So? So if I go back in terms of my gay journey, when I look back that there were definitely signs I I didn't recognise them. I. I was basically ignorant about sexuality in my teenage years. I, I always say, if my my mother [00:04:30] would I mean my my my father didn't play a big role in in our lives. My mother, I mean, for her to any any discussion about sex and sexuality would have been an absolute anathema to her. And I always say, Even if I asked her now about you know where the babies come from, she say, Tell me, I'll tell you later. I mean, that's the sort of person she is. And And I mean, back then I had no clues at all. But when I look back, I mean, I. I did have crushes on guys at school and and I can remember going going up to London and going into, [00:05:00] you know, porn shops and looking at magazines. And it wasn't It was the men that were I was attracted to, not the women. And, uh, and and it was, um but but it I had no, I had no clue at all. And I you you know, and as I say, really just followed what was expected of me and, uh, and and I got married, and we had a very successful marriage. I mean, there was nothing wrong with our marriage at all. Um, but when I was, um, at, well, when, um when I was at Saint John's College actually got very close [00:05:30] to a another or there and, um and he made a pass at me and and I And it just completely threw me. I It was just something that I I'd never encountered before. And and And I never thought, you know, we as I say, we got quite I mean, we did get quite deep together, and and and, um and I did say that when we we started talking about our attractions, as I say made a pass at me, and and it was something that I mean, it completely threw me, um [00:06:00] and but But from there, uh, as I say, I became curate at SAT and and that was back in the 19 seventies. And there was a There was a movement then called a group Life Laboratories, and, um and they were sort of week long. Uh uh, residential, um, Programmes. I don't know if you know about them. Um, and they they involved, um, you know, forming these very close little groups doing experiments, [00:06:30] group after laboratory, doing some work in a group and then exploring it as, as, you know, sort of as like a laboratory, Really. And and and but And in the process of that, I came to really realise that I did have a strong attraction to to people of the same G to men. And I actually went back to my wife and I said, Hey, guess what. You know, II I I'm actually really attracted to men, but don't worry. I mean, it's not something you know you need to worry about. It's just a part of me and [00:07:00] and, uh and I But of course I mean, it wasn't just a part of me, and as as time went on, it became more Well, as I say, My, my, uh you know, in my on my spiritual journey, of course, spirituality and sexuality are are totally intertwined. And, uh and so on my A as I as I worked on my spiritual life, of course I had to come to terms with my sexuality. And, uh however, being married, being [00:07:30] a priest, having Children, it was the last thing that I wanted in my life. So I tried everything not to be gay, and, uh, and I joined Exodus International. And I was, uh, I. I was part of the Exodus movement for a number of years. I used to write their newsletter and and and I went across to Melbourne to a conference and and I mean, it was it was a bit bizarre when I you know, when I think about it, it's really bizarre. And, uh and and they they decided that I needed to be [00:08:00] properly baptised because it was so they dumped me in the Yarra River so that my sins could be washed away. And, um uh, but I mean it it it just But that was actually I mean, it became clear to me that that that a lot of the people within that movement who claimed healing in inverted commas, uh, were in fact just repressing their sexuality. And and it was and and and in the group that I was part of here in Auckland, [00:08:30] I mean, guys were just getting it off with one another. And and so as I say it, it it It became clearer and clearer to me that, you know that that that, um um I had to come to terms with my sexuality. That was the, you know, And I had to acknowledge the fact that I was gay and I mean, it took a number of years, and it was a quite a painful process. And, um and we actually had a a sort of a crisis in the family. And and, um, we [00:09:00] had to sort of identify my wife and I had to identify our bottom lines, and my wife's bottom line was that I was her husband and the Children's father. But my bottom line actually was that I was a gay man, and we decided at that point that we needed to part company and and it was it was the most difficult, painful thing I've ever done in my life. As I say it was it was absolute. I mean, it just destroyed her And, um uh, and we, [00:09:30] as I say, but it just had to happen. It just had to happen. So that would have been in that would have been in the 19 nine. Yeah, and as I say III, I went and saw the bishop and, uh and I and we said we were We were part in company and why? And he he and he was absolutely useless. I mean, he said to us, he said, he said, and we were bawling our eyes out the of us and and, uh and [00:10:00] he said, Um, he said, uh, I, uh, um he said that that's not What did he say? That's not what I wanted to. He said, I know these things happen, but it's not what I wanted to hear. And that was the last we ever heard from him. And as I say, we I mean, it was, you know, we, um And from there, of course. I mean, you know, the whole parish thing became just untenable. Really. And I and as I say, I left the church and and moved on, and I actually ended up. Um, [00:10:30] there was there was a guy that I met, and I ended up moving in with him, which was an absolute disaster. Disastrous thing to do. Um, and, um uh, AAA and yeah, and that sort of fell apart very quickly. And I actually moved back with my wife for a while, But we I mean, just in the house, so that, uh and then, as I say, Well, then, I, I, you know, sort of moved on from there, and some months later I met, um, Hilton who who is a current partner and we've been together [00:11:00] for the last. What 15 years or so, and I and I think that, um, as I say, Hilton and I Well, we've we we've we went, we entered into Well, we've, um We we we've done a lot of business stuff together. We ran a, um we ran a, uh, AAA restaurant and a wedding venue. He's a DJ. So we did. Um, we, you know, we we had a, uh a restaurant and a 2. 5 acre garden down in Hamilton. And we ran that for seven years. And, um [00:11:30] uh and then we've We've been back here in Auckland for the last, um what? Uh, three or four years? Um, but yeah. So we had a civil union down there, and we're going to get We've decided now that the marriage amendment bill has gone through that we're going to get married on the same day, November the 10th. Yeah, uh, so in the same settlement, So it'll be a lot of fun. Yeah, I'm really interested in in spirituality and sexuality and how they kind of work together. What [00:12:00] are your thoughts on that he's asking. That's a That's a big question, isn't it? I? I mean, I think if you I mean any any, uh, every person has to come has to integrate. I mean, spirit, spirituality. It's all about integration. It's all about integration. And every person has to integrate their sexuality and whether it be gay, straight and a lot of even straight. People often don't come to terms with their own sexuality and and it and I think it's, uh, it you know it. It's it's [00:12:30] that's part of the process of growth of, you know, is is, um discovering, uh, who one of my stock things is. Who is your God? And, uh and it's a discovering who your own God is. And of course, your God is the God that is that is, in your own being in your heart in your it's not some god out there or it's the And of course, my sexuality is exactly the same. It's it's it's nothing out there. It's to do with who I am [00:13:00] and what dwells within me. And and so those two in that sense are inseparable and and and if I if if I don't come to terms with who my God is, I will never come to terms with my sexuality and vice versa. If I don't come to terms with my sexuality and I'm not absolutely comfortable with that, then I won't actually will not know who my God is, and I will not actually go on the journey that I'm called [00:13:30] to go on. All of us are called to go on. You know that that spiritual journey what however it takes us, does that make sense? It does. But I'm wondering, Did you start out thinking like that? No, not at all. That's been an evolution I. I mean, I you know, as I say initially in my you know, back when with all I mean, I my, my my wife's family were quite churchy people. And, um So and we we you know, we did the church thing, um and, um, [00:14:00] Anglican church thing. And then when? When when my my wife's father was killed. I mean, that really was a, uh a a sort of like a kick in the pants, really. And and and I, I always describe it like a It was like an orange and the peel this orange just fell away, and I was left with the juicy core and Um, And it was, um uh, um uh, and and from that it was in that context of that juicy [00:14:30] core that that that I had an encounter with God, and I went through the whole charismatic thing, you know, all the speaking in tongues, but and, uh, II. I mean, that was all part and part of of that, uh, of that era of that part of my spiritual journey, I I was I was never I've always been reasonably liberal and progressive in my theology and in my understanding of it all. Um, but but, um, but I, I would have called myself an evangelical. Well, an evangelical, [00:15:00] charismatic liberal, Really. I mean, it was a mixture, um, but but then it has been an unfolding journey. I mean, I would now call myself more a contemplative, uh, and, you know, that's that. My spirituality certainly is far. I mean, my concepts of God of the divine are very, very different to what they were, uh, all those years ago, and so it has been an evolving, uh, discovery. And I mean, and and and as I say, even, you know, working with Exodus. I mean, that was [00:15:30] part of that, You know, recognising that you know that people used religion as a as a crop, you know, a sort of a prop on a croc, and and and, you know, and I, I really do differentiate between religion and spirituality. I think they're two very different things. You know, religion is more organised. Spirituality has to do with your journey, and and how you perceive yourself and the world around you and other people. Uh, and it's, um Yeah. So my concepts have been an E. It's been an [00:16:00] evolving process. Really? Can you describe a bit more about the repercussions of of your wife's mother's death? What? What it actually meant to you. And I mean, I'm trying to get an idea of, you know, what was it a Was it a fearful journey to kind of No, no, no. I think it was a realisation. I, I What happened there was that II I realised my finite uh you know, I realised that [00:16:30] then that that I wasn't going to live forever, that ever that I was going to die and that it could have been me. It was a road accident and and I could have been the one that was killed. So I think it it was It was a realisation that that that the time or life here is finite and that that so, as I say and And that sent me off on this quest for a meaning to it all. I mean, if it's finite, what am I here for? You know, what's it all about? What? What do I need to be doing? So yeah. So it was, um it it it it wasn't a fearful thing at all. No, no, [00:17:00] no, not at all. I mean, it was a It was a as I say it was It was a It was like, Just like I said, it was like the hard the hard skin fell away. And you were left with a with a soft core and the sweet, soft core, the juicy soft core which, which, which, which was the essence of, you know, it's actually starting to delve into that and to, you know, to taste it and to, um and to and to work with it. Yeah, So it I would It was No, it wasn't wasn't fearful. It was, um Yeah, it was more. An awakening. [00:17:30] Yeah, definitely an awakening. And did the same thing happen to your wife? No, not at all. Not at all. No, no, it was quite different for her. Quite different for her. And I mean, but that's yeah. I mean, I. I can't say I can't talk for her, but it was quite different for her. Yeah. Can you talk to me a wee bit more about Exodus? Because, I, I don't think I've ever talked to anyone that's gone through Exodus. Right? Um, first of all, can you describe what it was and how you came to? Yeah, well, [00:18:00] well, I came. I came to it through, um the There was a magazine called Grapevine that was doing the rounds back then. And, um, a grape vine was a sort of a AAA reasonably evangelical no more. It was It was an evangelical Christian based community magazine. I if you've come across it, um but it it was, um uh, and it was It was pretty widely distributed, and they and they had some interesting stuff in there. It was some of it was quite good, but and they had an article [00:18:30] on homosexuality and of course. And this the fact that this group exodus that, um and and so I decided I'd make contact with the they had phone numbers there, and I made contact with them. There was a guy who who was, uh he was the, um he was a I'm not sure what denomination, but he was a minister of Three Kings. Um, and, um, and II I met with him and I started doing some I mean and he his and their whole thing was, [00:19:00] Well, I, um they there was there was a There's a number of aspects to it, so I mean, it it it sort of emanated from America. And there was a group called Homosexuals Anonymous. And they they they use the 12 step programme as a as a means to to be to to to, um to find healing for your sexuality in the same way you would find healing for alcoholism or any other addiction. And and that And I think they they I think most people [00:19:30] in that sort of area would at that time would have would have thought of homosexuality as an addiction or as a a spiritual possession, and, um, and I, um And so, uh, yes. So I actually, as I say I was I was pretty desperate. Really, Because, I mean, I realised III. I mean, there were lots of things going on. I mean, I was becoming exposed to other guys, and, um [00:20:00] uh, and and And I was quite scared. I mean, I was really scared. It was, You know, I can remember how much. How much detail do you want on here? I can remember going down there. There used to be some toilets in House Street. And I can remember going down into the toilets there one day, and, uh and I thought, It's funny these guys are just hanging around down here. What are they? What's going on? What are they doing? And I sort of stayed. And of course, I started witnessing some [00:20:30] of the stuff that went on in the toilets down there. But but and I, I can remember. I used to go back to my car and I shook. I literally was paralysed, and I shook for at least half. And I did that several times for half an hour or more until I got my equilibrium back. It was I mean, it was pretty scary stuff. I have to say, it was really, really difficult stuff for me. As I say, I was married. I was a a priest, you know, It's the last thing I wanted. And then and then back then, of course it was. [00:21:00] I mean, it was still illegal, you know, There there's just a whole mess of stuff that that would just I just found it terrifying. And as I say, and I and I approached Exodus because I I really did want to find a way to deal with it. And and they and as I say, I mean the I mean to their credit, they that there was that there was that, um there was the thing. Homosexuals Anonymous. But then there was this other. There was a a research, um, psychologist called Elizabeth Mobley, who [00:21:30] who wrote a book called Homosexuality A New Christian Ethic. And she had a thesis about, um, the the the origins of of homosexuality. And her thesis was that, um uh, everybody in their, um, psychosexual development needs a a same sex bonding, and that's usually done with one's father. However, if, uh if that If that's pre puberty. [00:22:00] However, if if that bonding doesn't happen and you journey through puberty and you haven't bonded same sexually in in a to the same to somebody of the same sex in a non sexual way, then then her thing was is that post puberty that need becomes sexualized. So you are then drawn sexually to someone of the same sex, because so and her and and her, uh, her again. Her thesis was that you could revisit your, [00:22:30] uh, that pre puberty part of your psyche and and work through it with somebody. And I actually, we I actually explored that. So, as I say, we actually moved into a into a community peacemakers and and the other family we moved in with, they all knew this was going on. And so we actually wrote to Elizabeth Elizabeth Moley and we set up a contract, um, to to, um, to do this work. Well, it was of course, it was disastrous. It was absolutely disastrous. [00:23:00] And, um um but but, uh, and and as I say and all that, as I say, all that went together to help me to realise that Hey, you know, you're gay being gay is just who you are. It's not a part of you. It's not something you can get rid of. It's not something you can find healing from. It's, uh you know, as I say, it's It's just part of your essence of who you are. And of course, as I moved as I move through [00:23:30] that and and move through my my spiritual life, all that sort of started to move together so that I mean so Exodus, as I say, it was just It was just part of the, uh, part part of the process, really, of my coming out. And you said earlier about some of the members and Exodus and they were kind of just hooking up. Oh, yeah. I mean, how how did that work in terms of, I mean, did they feel guilt after doing it? Was there there was huge, lots of guilt, huge amount of guilt. Yeah, huge amount of guilt. I mean, I, I still I still meet up with a lot [00:24:00] of those people now. And of course, that's that. They've all come to terms with themselves, and they're all out. Uh um And, uh, yeah, so yeah. Of course. Yes, there was all that, and there was there was guilt. And I mean that because it that's what they did. I mean, it laid that guilt trip on you because they say, you know, it was sinful. I mean, I've you've got no idea what I've been through. Really? Bill Soy was another one. I mean, he he he exercised me from the spirit of homosexuality, [00:24:30] but he actually came to talk to the group one day. To this, to our to our group. And and and I and I've always been I mean, as I say, I've always been a little bit talkative and pushy, And, um and and I started to ask him because he you know, I mean, I started to ask him questions which he didn't like, and he suddenly turned on me and said, You've got a spirit of cynicism, brother. You see, Yeah, I never forget that. And, um, [00:25:00] but everything was a spirit to him. Everything. I mean, if if you you know, if if it didn't fit into his his framework, then it was a spirit or something or other. So but yeah, but he I mean, he delivered. I mean, I've had prayers for deliverance. Um, II I there was another. There was a couple. There was a an a an American Indian that came over here as well once. And his thing was I mean, you've got no idea. This is sounds crazy, but this is what I went through. His thing was that, um uh, that [00:25:30] that, you know, you have that in every person there is a There is a male pole and a female poll. And in, in, in, in normal people, they're separated. But in gay people, they crossed over. And so the the essence is to uncross them and have them independent. And and so and and again, I went through all this stuff with this bloody American. I mean you. I mean, if if if if there was anything that could be done, I tried it not to be gay And, uh and it was Ridic Well, it wasn't ridiculous. [00:26:00] It was It was just part of the I mean, it was just part of the growing awareness, and, uh and it's, um uh, and it took me and it took me a long time. It took, you know, I mean it took me over 40 years, and, um, and that and I Do I regret that? Not at all. I mean, I'm glad that I was married. I'm glad I had. I mean, I regret you know what I did to my wife and how damaging it was for her. Um, but I don't regret having Children grandchildren now, [00:26:30] and, um, a a and and And I mean and the experience of life as a whole. But I mean, but and all that's come together to make me a, uh, a much more compassionate, um empathetic, uh, understanding man. I mean, I you know, I I mean, I. I don't judge anybody else for what they for where they are or what they do. It's I mean, everybody has made me realise that [00:27:00] all our journeys are, uh, individual and unique to us. And we have to do that. Whatever. You know, that's part of what Why we're here is to do that work. And, um and and yeah, and we and we each need to do it in our own way until we come to a place where, but it I don't know that it ever ends like I like you know, every now and again, I think to myself Oh, well, you know, I I'm I'm 64 now, and I've done it all, but I haven't You know, [00:27:30] I'm in. I'm just in the process now of going through another sort of, uh, well, I am. I am 64 and I'm dealing with with ageing, and I've actually befriended a guy of or befriended. I'm I. It's a long story. That's another long story. A guy of 30 29 and and he's my lost youth. He's absolutely my lost youth and and it's and it's and again, it's just, um and that's I've been doing some work with a psychotherapist just to work through that because it's, uh and and it is it's [00:28:00] part of I will never It will never, ever stop. I will. I will forever be, uh, I will never be a complete person because we're not. And and the journey is to keep aiming for completeness, wholeness, whatever that is, and and and enter that in a core of my own divinity. And, um uh, yeah and I I and I'm I'm pretty convinced that's an eternal journey. What do you mean, by the lost youth. Well, my lost youth [00:28:30] when I was, uh when I was about 16, I can remember going to Carnaby Street. This was back in the sixties. Carnaby Street was the sort of the, um uh, the the fashion centre of the of the time. And I can remember buying myself these outrageous clothes, which I would never ever have thought of wearing outside anywhere. And I used to I used to dress up in my bedroom. I used to put these tight, um, top sort of trunks on. And I mean, you [00:29:00] know, it was outrageous, and I always I mean, I'm you can see I'm I'm a pretty solid sort of guy, and I always have been and but I always I mean, you know, I always wanted to be the the sort of the Charles Atlas. The sort of the, you know, the the the nice body and all the rest of it. And but But back then, and of course, it was crazy, but but I actually ended up. I mean, I got married at 21 so I I mean, I actually lost. I didn't do all that stuff that [00:29:30] I should have done back then, I you know, And so there there was a sense where my youth was lost. I know I didn't I just didn't do Didn't do what I should have what I needed to do back then and I I and I I'm you know, in my journey I mean, I've done a lot of psycho, um, therapeutic work and and and, you know, and and my psychotherapists have said to me, You know, everybody has to deal with their teenage years, and if you if you're trying to deal with it once you've passed 40 it's actually quite difficult [00:30:00] because you make such a fool of yourself. And it's true. You do make a fool of yourself because you go back and you like, here I am at 64. I fall in love with a 30 year old, and it's not, actually, and I'm already in a very strong committed relationship, and it's not that that's going to affect that in any way. It's that I'm still having to deal with stuff that that that is not, you know, that is not appropriately dealt with. Can you describe for me your perception of gay people [00:30:30] um, over that 40 year span from from being kind of married in the church to now being an openly gay man. I mean, have your thoughts changed on gay men? Have they changed? In what way? Well, II, I guess, Like, 40 years ago, when you saw somebody gay in the community, What did you think? Um I mean, I think if you'd asked me if I if I knew any gay II, I don't know any. I've [00:31:00] never seen any. And it wasn't. It wasn't as I say, it wasn't until much later that that I I became aware. And then, um yeah, I think I know II I I. I think initially I of course, I was frightened of them of gay, of of gay people, and I and I, um And I didn't I would never have wanted to befriend a gay person because I would have been too scared. I think if I was honest [00:31:30] with myself, yeah, back then and as I say, I can honestly say that I don't know I. I certainly didn't. I mean, if I did, you know, I would certainly have. I certainly kept, uh, anything of of a gay nature at an arm's length. Can you talk about the church, the Anglican church and how it relates to gay people? Pen, the Anglican Church is a I mean, [00:32:00] I. I, uh, I I have a love hate relationship with the church, and and, I mean, it's more hate than love And, um, I, I, uh and and and it's been, uh, I, I think the church, the Anglican Church in particular, has this, um uh, II. I mean, it's what it's like. It was like the American Army. If it, you know, it's, uh it was a question of, um, you know, don't tell and it doesn't matter. And it's hugely hypocritical, hugely [00:32:30] hypocritical. And I mean, there's a huge number of gay people in the closet in the church. Huge number and and and and it's, I think it's just, uh, well, I, I mean, for me, Um, the the church is supposed to be the Embraer of life of people. Uh, and and there are segments of it which attempt to do that, but, uh, but but on the whole, I mean, the bishop at the time when I came out said to me, uh, he [00:33:00] said to me, um, if if anybody if anybody lays a complaint against you in any way whatsoever about your sexuality, I will have to be the bishop. That's what he said. So in other words, in private he he was he was wasn't uncomfortable with the fact that I was gay, but the fact that he was the bishop, he would have to he would have to toe the church line, and he would have to censor me in whatever way he thought that was appropriate. Well, I, I mean, that irked me enormously. And as I say, the church has never offered me [00:33:30] or my family any pastoral care whatsoever in terms of the the the pain that we went through and the and the journey we've all taken. And even now, as I say, I mean, I'm out on a limb. I mean, I'm out on a limb in a lot of ways, because, as I say, I mean I. I basically I mean I. I contract. Even now I do some work at Grey limb, but that's contractual, and it's quite outside the normal parameters of the of the of the way people operate within the church. So yeah, I don't And and I mean all the debate at the moment about, [00:34:00] uh, you know about the marriage amendment, Bill, and I mean, it's just I. I mean, I just think it's a I Well, I don't know quite what to say. As I say, It hurts me. It irks me and and I have no time for it whatsoever. So as I say I, I differentiate between spirituality and and religion. I think all that stuff's religion and I just think it's unhelpful, quite frankly, just unhelpful. I think it's destructive. I think it, uh and it's it's It's destructive in so many ways because, [00:34:30] you know, there is the church talking about enabling people to to discover divinity to to to to move towards wholeness. But in actual fact, it then becomes a barrier to that in it's, you know, in its intransigence in terms of accepting gay people. So what was your coming out in terms of coming up to the church like? Very difficult, very difficult. I mean, we we because we didn't initially [00:35:00] I mean, we we just parted company and we didn't tell the church why and I I always remember we had some quite good friends in the in the parish at the time. And, um and they just couldn't understand what was going on, because, I mean, we seem to be the, you know, the ideal couple and family. And, um and, um and in the end, actually, it was Jill, my wife, that she actually went and spoke to this couple and, uh, and told them what was happening. And and [00:35:30] and And he came straight down. He came. He he just walked out of the house, came straight down to where I was to where I was living, and he said to me, Why didn't you tell me? He said, I thought you'd run off with another woman and I was I would have hit you He said, Oh, but you're gay. So that's why it's quite a gay, which was really lovely. I mean, you know, of course, there were people. I mean, once, of course, I did come out completely in the parish there. There were those that were, you know, I mean completely, uh, homophobic and just [00:36:00] would not accept that whatsoever. And as I say that was that was really as I say the end of my journey in the church as a paid employee, and, um uh, because I mean yeah, it it it I mean, I it's fine as long as you don't if you don't talk about it, and it's and that's the way the church basically operates. And I think most, most gay people that are openly gay either either feign, uh, celibacy, which is a lot of crap, or they, um [00:36:30] or they move aside from paid employment in the church. And so you know, so sort of have some more flexibility. I guess you mentioned earlier about kind of ageing. And I'm wondering, as a gay man now, are there differences between ageing as a gay man and ageing as a straight man? In your view, well, ageing is ageing whether you're gay or straight. But I think that there there, I think it is. I think there are differences in that they are that there are not the [00:37:00] facilities or resources to, um I mean, being gay, gay and straight. It is like being, um, lesbian or gay. I mean, they're all very different. Um uh, communities or very different ethos in terms of the way that, um, people, uh, live and operate and, uh and I think that certainly it it I Well, I one of the one of the chaplains I did in a resident dental care facility there was There was a guy there [00:37:30] who, uh, who, um he needed, you know, full-time residential care. And, uh, and he was clearly gay. But he was unable at that stage to be able to express himself as a as a gay man. And, um and I think that had he attempted to do so that it would have been extraordinarily difficult for him for the for this particular facility. Uh, you know, I mean, it's OK for guys to put up, you know, girlie [00:38:00] pictures in their rooms, But it's not OK for guys to put up guy guy pictures and and and, you know, and I and he he he was a hugely depressed man, and and And that stuck with me a lot. I mean, and I realised there isn't There isn't You know, Um um I I it it might be getting better. Now I'm I'm actually starting a some new I'm starting work in a new facility. Um, just In fact, I've just started, and, um and and and certainly [00:38:30] their attitude is far more accepting and open than it was back then. But but nevertheless, it's, you know, the the the staff. There's a lot of, um, fairly, uh, conservative staff. And who who I? I I'm much I mean, and I don't know, quite it'll be interesting to see how it all pans out, as I say, um, as as as I move on and they all know that I'm gay. I mean, I'm openly gay there, and there are There are clearly other openly gay [00:39:00] people on the staff. But there are also, as I say, a lot of very conservative Christian people on the staff, and and it'll be interesting. But I mean, the management itself is very, uh uh, accepting and inclusive. And, uh and it made it very clear that that that that if you know, if I'm working there, they expect my family to to to be part of that as well. And they have no problem with that, but it But as I say in terms of residence, Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how much has changed. Um, as [00:39:30] I've been out of the working in aged care facilities for some years now. Um, so it'll be interesting how it's changed, But But I still think that that, you know, it's not set up for gay people or, you know, I mean, it's it's set up basically for straight people, and, um uh, and And there is a difference with that example of of the the depressed chap. Do you think it was because of how the staff treated him or how I treated him? I, I think I think [00:40:00] it was II. I think it was that he didn't. He was a square pig in a round hole. He just didn't fit there. And he knew he didn't fit and he didn't. I mean, he just didn't fit there. And he knew that, and it was. And and he he I mean, he never actually openly, and he never Well, he never openly declared that he was gay, but it was clear that he was. And and and even as I reflect now more so I can he definitely was, um but, um uh but I mean yeah, I. I think it was more. It was not Not really the attitude. [00:40:30] It was more that he couldn't be himself because he was, as I say, I in around hole. So what do you think could be done differently? There's been a lot of conversation about, you know, having residential care facilities for just gay people. But I think that I mean, can you imagine the gaggle of gays together? I mean it Happy hour would be incredibly funny, but, uh, um, uh, yeah. I mean, there has been talk about that, and I know that there was [00:41:00] there was a the Methodist church, actually. Did, um, explore one of their villages in Mount Eden a, uh, a cottage for gay people. And I think, and and and and I think with a degree of success. But I mean that it didn't go any further. Um, but but yeah, I mean, I, I think there just needs to be. And I think that there is. There is, um there is a growing acceptance in the community and in society at large about gay people, and I think that will inevitably, um, philtre down. [00:41:30] Um, however, as I say that the, um you know, aged care facilities tend to employ Pacific island people, and they tend to have very strong, um, conservative religious views. And I think you know that there are. I mean, you know, there are things that will need to be attended to in terms of of enabling staff to accept people of different differing sexualities. And, uh, there's a lot of work to be done there, so, yeah, I mean, where whether whether an exclusive and gay [00:42:00] or, uh, you know, facility it is feasible or not, I really don't know, but but certainly there has to be some work, and there is I mean, I know there is work being done. I think that just recently I was reading that the, you know, across aged care facilities. They've actually there is some, um uh there is a group that is, um, putting out some, um, information and, uh, and and, uh, trying to assist aged care facilities to be more inclusive and an understanding of [00:42:30] people of of varying sexualities. It's not just gay. I mean, it's transgender. I mean, all that stuff I mean, it's, you know, it's it's hugely difficult when you're working in those facilities. You you're working as an openly gay man Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I don't hide my sexual. I don't hide my sexuality at all. And has that, um, proved useful in in terms of dealing with residents? Um, well, yes, II, I think. I think generally speaking, as people age, they [00:43:00] do. Well, no. Yeah, um difficult. That's That's a bit of a generalisation, Really. I mean, I hope one would hope that as people age, they become more accepting. And I think there's there is some So I think there is a truth in that. And conversely, I think the younger generation now are far more accepting, inclusive of of, of differing. Um, well, different cultures and different sexualities. I think that's that is definitely happening in society at large. So yeah, I. I mean, II. [00:43:30] I think being openly gay, I think, actually helps people. I mean, I'm human, I'm I'm you know, and and I think I I if I If I start hiding behind saying if I start hiding in any way whatsoever, then I I'm not true to myself. I can't do my job properly and, um, you know, and people need to take me as as they find me as I as I take them as I find them, and I think that's actually helpful. So yeah, so So being openly gay, I think, is a helpful thing because it makes people realise that you're [00:44:00] human and normal, and there's, you know, there's you're not gonna I don't know what they expect, what other people expect, but that that's just part of being human, part of the human spectrum in terms of your own ageing. Are there things you think about in terms of like, uh, financial security and legacy is not important, But financial security is And and as I say, I mean, my my my journey has has not I mean, [00:44:30] I I've never I mean, I've gone through some, um uh, I. I mean, a whole lot of stuff that I've done in my life has not been financially. Uh, well, yeah, rewarding. It's been rewarding in stacks of other ways, but I've never I've never accumulated a lot of money. So, um and so that's the concern for me now is you know, as I is thinking about what? How am I going to you know, what am I going to do to to support myself as I move into my latter years and I and and [00:45:00] that's and it is an issue. And I don't I. I haven't resolved that properly yet. Um, but yeah, I mean, it will II I have. I mean, I have faith. I've never I mean, right through my life. I've really never I've I've always lived on the edge and, um and I've and I've never gone without it. It's been quite remarkable. And it really and and I and And And I as I say with what I have, I'm generous, and and people are generous with me. And I think [00:45:30] that, um, yeah, but but yeah, I. I am concerned. You know, You listen to all this stuff on the radio. I was just just just as I parked my car. There was an article on the radio and they said that the that the commissioner for the whatever it is, um, A for the, you know, superannuation said something about, uh, you know, people will need to have at least 333 to 2 to $400,000. Uh, you know, in capital to be able to have a comfortable retirement, if they're going to live, you [00:46:00] know, including the superannuation. Well, I haven't got 2 to 3. I haven't got that sort of money anywhere. And I'm thinking, Oh, God, you know what's gonna happen So I'll be living on the bread line, But I won't be. I mean, II I, as I say, I'll continue to Things will evolve. I mean, we'll be fine, but it it is a concern. So I do. I I mean it. I mean, my minute I it off on the it is a concern. Yes. One thing you you you didn't seem too concerned about was legacy. And and [00:46:30] because because my my Children and anybody else I mean, they have to live their own lives. And, uh and I you know, um, I don't expect I don't expect my parents to, uh I mean, it would be nice if they left me something, but it doesn't. I mean it. It it it. I mean, I'd rather they spent their money on themselves and did what they wanted to do, rather than, you know, leave it for, for for their Children. And and and And it's [00:47:00] the same. I really I mean, my kids, they don't, um I don't know there's nothing in here, so but it doesn't, uh, it doesn't. It's not really an issue. I mean, III I don't think leaving legacies is a big thing for me at all. I. I mean, when I'm gone, I'm gone. You know, people. So I mean, some people, I mean, I hopefully the legacy I leave is is an imprint on on on the way that I've lived my life And, uh, and and And that, uh, and the way that I've [00:47:30] interacted with other people and hopefully, uh, you know, that that will be the legacy that I leave rather than anything financial. Um And and I mean, And when I'm dead and gone, well, I always remember, as I say, even in in the ministry. You know, when I was, um, you know, working like a Trojan. And people said people used to say to me, You know, look, if you drop dead now, they'll say, Oh, look, Keith dead. He's going to be the next vicker, and I mean, and that's exactly how it is. You know, life goes [00:48:00] on. And, uh so when it when it comes to legacy, yeah, if if if the only legacy that I would hope to leave is that I would that I have left an imprint. And of course, we've all left an imprint, and we've all contributed one. Hopefully, it's a positive imprint that I leave and that I've managed to assist or enable others, you know, in their in their journey through life. Shortly you're coming up to your marriage, and [00:48:30] I'm wondering, can you tell me, uh, why things like civil union and marriage are important to you and the difference and and And what those differences are for you? Yeah. When? When the when the civil Union legislation came through. I mean, I've I've been 100% supporter of civil union legislation, and and I was not really overly fazed about it being marriage or not. Uh, I. I think that civil union legislation actually enable people to have exactly the same legal rights. Uh uh, you [00:49:00] know, either straight or gay and and that civil union actually gave people an option. Uh um, not to be, uh, and even for straight couples not to, um to buy into, uh, you know, all the historical trappings of marriage. So but but and so and I And and And I've always thought that having a civil union, um, was a, um uh was a way of, uh, of of entering [00:49:30] into, uh, a a AAA sort of main more mainstream societal thing. And, uh, you know, um, it was quite funny. I mean again, when? When The When The civil. I mean, when we were down in the all that legislation came through and Hilton and I were on the front page of the Waikato Times and, um, there was a picture of him and I almost kissing. And it caused such a fra down there. It was absolutely unbelievable. And, uh, and we had we had threatening letters [00:50:00] and phone calls and and people writing cancelling their subscriptions to the Waikato Times because I thought it was disgusting that these two men were kissing on the front page and it was really quite funny. Um, but but, um, and and that and actually what happened was that when the Because when we moved down there, uh, it was a It was the year before the legislation went through, and and I knew one of the reporters on the on the of times and she said, I'm doing an article on on, uh, you know, same sex couples or or on [00:50:30] civil Union. And could I interview you and she And so she came and took a picture and she did an interview and she did this magazine article in The Times, which was really quite really balanced, and she had it was really good. But then, as I say that the year later, when the legislation went through, they rang and said, Seeing as we did this article a year ago, can I ask for your comment after you know, tomorrow morning? Because once it was late at night that they were voting and and so I said, Yeah, give me a ring. So they gave me a ring and then they said, um uh and they asked me [00:51:00] some questions and I. I commented, and and they said, And the reporter said to me, Are you are you and your partner going to have a civil union and said, Well, I actually haven't asked him, But anyhow, I got off the phone and, uh and uh and I said, Oh, that was the I said to him, and that was the way I came at times and I got down on my knees and said, I said And he asked, Oh, III I You know? And I said, Uh and he asked if we were going to have a civil union. So I So I got down on my knees team there and then and said, Will you civil unionise me? You see? And he said, How stupid idiot you see? [00:51:30] Well, anyhow, half an hour later, the reporter rang back and said, Oh, should I call you the reverend or Mister? And I said, Look, you can call me what you like I don't care So anyhow and so he said, Oh, I think I'll call you the Reverend I said that because he was obviously going to stir it a bit and I said, Oh, that's fine, It doesn't worry me and uh anyway, the, um and I said to him and I said You did ask me if we're going to have a civil union and I said, Well, as it happens, you know, when I got off the phone, I got down on my knees and proposed to see and he said, Oh, wonderful, wonderful. So [00:52:00] and and the headline with this picture of us almost kissing was, um, clergyman gets down on his the boyfriend. That was the headline you see in the paper with all its innuendo. It was hilarious, really. But but yes, So I, uh, and and I'm And as I say, I've been a great fan, and I and I and I wasn't really keen for pushing the marriage thing. I thought, Well, that's fine. If straight for when they get married, that's fine. You know, Civil Union does provide [00:52:30] an opportunity, uh, to be recognised by society and to, you know, and and to to to have some legal recognition. So that was and it was good. We had a wonderful civil union. It was a great, great great day. But then when the marriage when you know, when the marriage Amendment bill went through, Well, I mean, civil union sort of becomes defunct in a way, I mean, it's, um, I. I mean, it's, um and and and and it sort of. Then it's sort of shifted the [00:53:00] it shifted the dynamic so that you know, now I mean it. The dynamic is back to marriage again. So and and I think that. It's, um and we're and we're doing it because, yeah, it's a again. It's a way of moving the gay community into the mainstream, And, uh, and and And I think it's really important that that you know, that we do that. I mean, we we're people, and we are part of society and and and, you know, and [00:53:30] that now that, uh, that legislation is recognising that more and more. Um, I think it's it's it's just right and proper that we should actually, um, stand up and and, uh and and and enter into that I mean my view of marriage any. I mean, my view of relationships is, uh, you know, I mean, IIII. I mean, we're complex people. We're comp complex creatures, and and and we have multiple relationships at multiple levels. And so I mean, [00:54:00] um, both Hilton and I hold that similar sort of view. So, you know, I mean, I'm I I'm I'm certainly I mean, Hilton and I totally committed to one another. Um, and with that as well as I say, we, we we we also are quite comfortable for one another to have, um, other other, uh, relationships. Really at all sorts of levels, and I think it's and I for me. I know some people find that really difficult, [00:54:30] but that's, uh But for me, I think, um uh, you know, II, I think I I will never be able to fulfil myself, uh, with a single individual. I certainly you know, I am committed to a single individual in terms of partnership. Um, but I will never be able to find my, you know, complete fulfilment in Hilton. And he and he won with me. So, you know, we we I think it's, uh it's actually useful to [00:55:00] explore oneself with other people in all sorts of levels. I'm wondering, uh, moving gay people more into mainstream. Doesn't that have the possibility of of reducing some of the kind of identity of of gay people? No, I don't think so at all. And I think I mean, even if you look at other cultures, um, you know, we have a variety of cultures here now. Indian, Chinese, and and And And that that [00:55:30] they, uh, they, um uh, amalgamated. I mean, they become they're assimilated into into society as a whole, but they still they they maintain their own sense of identity language. Maori people there, you know, and and their culture. Um, however, it's it's actually it it it and that enriches the so society. And I and I think the whole gay that, you know, the gay community does that as well. I think that, you know, I, um II I don't think I don't think we need to lose a cultural identity at all. [00:56:00] Um, but I do think that we need to, uh we need to take advantage of those opportunities that we have that enable us to be able to stand up and to be counted as as, uh uh, as equal members with everybody else in the in, in the community, in and in society at large. And I think, you know, marriage does is is part of that process the photograph in the Waikato Times. You you you say you were just kissing or just about to [00:56:30] kiss. Who made the decision whether you you kiss or don't kiss in the picture? Oh, wait. I don't know. I I'm not actually sure what I mean. It was just It was just the I mean, perhaps we were just going to kiss. But the photographer obviously took the picture and decided to to use that picture in the Waikato Times. We had no choice. We didn't even know which one they're putting in there. They just came and took a whole mass of pictures in the garden. And that was the one they. So it wasn't necessarily a conscious decision to have a not [00:57:00] for help. No, no, no, it wasn't. It wasn't at all. It was that that was the newspaper's decision. Yeah, and sensationalising it was I mean, it was it was funny. I mean, it got me to a lot of trouble. I mean, well, with the church and the I mean, I I've had lots and lots of problems with that. I mean, yeah, I mean, with the bishop of the the Arch, where he was the archbishop. And, uh, when when I first went down there, I, um uh I mean, within the church, I mean, I'm I'm a priest in good standing in the church, [00:57:30] and and and And you're licenced to your local bishop, and, um and it's just, uh I mean, I, I changed diocese. So I was in the Auckland Diocese and moved to the Waikato. So I just went to see him and said, I've moved into your diocese and no, and it's it's you know, it's probably proper that I have a licence to you rather than the bishop of Auckland because I'm living here now And he said Well, with the The Waikato Diocese has a policy of not issuing new licences to, um to openly gay people. So [00:58:00] II I bought at that and I said, Hey, that's not that's not acceptable I said, I'm I'm not a priest of the diocese. I'm a priest of the province of the whole of the Church of New Zealand And I said, It's just a question of licencing and it's not. It's not that I'm new into the ministry. It's that I've just shifted my place of residence and, uh, so that he refused. So I went to the Human Rights Commission and, um and, uh, and they they were going to take up my case and my cause, [00:58:30] and I went back to the bishop. I said, I've been to the Human Rights Commission and and I'm you know, we're going to be putting a case against you so he said, Oh, don't do anything hasty. Don't think I and they and, uh and and they and And of course, I got busy with the business down there and and they accommodated me by maintaining my licence to the bishop of Auckland. But but But associating me with a a para church Anglican organisation, the Waikato, which was absolutely ridiculous. But then, um [00:59:00] uh, a little a little while later, I discovered, uh that there was a guy that was going to be ordained, Uh uh, in the cathedral who I knew had been Mr Gay A the year before. So I went and confronted the Bishop and and he's and he insisted that he didn't know that this guy was gay and I said to him, How How can how can you put somebody through a whole process of psychological testing of background checks [00:59:30] and, uh, and you know, of of a theological conversation and not know that he was gay when all I had to do was make one phone call and discovered he was Mr Gay a last year and bla bla bla bla And I said to the I said to him, You're either you're either very stupid or very naive. And he said to me, I prefer the latter. So I just got up and walked out. That was my last conversation I ever had with him just getting back to your marriage. Do you think [01:00:00] your or your upcoming marriage? Do you think taking vows will change your relationship in any way? Um, when we did our civil union, it did. I think, what it did. But by actually, and that's what marriage is all about, it's I mean, marriage is the is the I mean I mean in the in, in spiritual terms. I mean, it's sacramental. I mean, it's it's and it's an outward expression of something that's internal in terms of one's love for one another. And and, um, and society [01:00:30] recognises that and it and it. And it's, uh and it's quite potent, You know, when two people share their commitment to one another and their love for one another in in the public arena and and And I must say that when we when we did that in our civil Union, it did, it actually made our it made our relationship stronger. There's no doubt about that, and it made our and it made our relationship. I mean deeper that the that it was good. It was a really, really good and right thing to do. Um, this time around, we're not [01:01:00] going through nearly the same. Uh, in fact, we're gonna have a We're doing a joint. There's there's a couple that I did the civil union for. So they're joining us. So So we're going to do a sort of like a four. So and so we're both of us are converting out of, you know, converting our civil unions into marriages. So I say that wonder who's doing ours? She's she's going to sort of oversee it and she'll she'll do our our legal bit and I'll do this. So it'll be quite fun. But it's going to be far [01:01:30] less formal. But and I'm not sure, I, I think, um, I'm not sure that it will change anything. I think the Civil Union definitely did. It took us into a different level, and and and I and that and I know that marriage does do that. I mean, you know, commitments. Public commitments do do that for people, whether they were a civil union I'm not sure that this marriage thing will do that in the same way because I think we've already done it. And I think that all we're doing is we're shifting our we're shifting. Uh, our, um [01:02:00] the language that we use from Civil Union to marriage and and and and I and it and it even civil Union people talked about being married when in actual fact, they weren't They were in a civil union. And I think it's nice to be able. I mean, I think it's good to be nice to be able to say, Hey, we're married, you know? And we're not just in a civil union, we're married, and, uh, and we can call ourselves husband and husband or whatever we choose. And I was just talking about that this morning and, [01:02:30] uh and I mean, it'll be fun. Um, but it will, and it and it is. And it is an acknowledgement of the relationship that we have. So whether it'll change it any further, I doubt I doubt this time around because I think it did with the civil Union. But I think we're just shifting the language and we're shifting the legal, not not even the legal thing. We're just shifting the language, which is important, too. I have to say.

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TITLE: Miscellaneouslee profile
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VOICES: Miscellaneouslee
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Bambi; Bertha; Brett Sheppard; Buckwheat; Freddie Mercury; HIV / AIDS; Hero (Auckland); Karangahape Road; Miscellaneouslee; Māori; Pride parade (Auckland); Rule Foundation; Wigs On Waterfront; acceptance; bullying; children; coming out; creativity; culture; drag; ethnicity; family; fear; friends; gay; growing up; health; homosexual law reform; identity; language; music; parents; performance; pornography; school; stroke; takatāpui; whakawhanaungatanga; whānau
DATE: 8 October 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Miscellaneouslee talks about family life, Auckland in the 1980s and performing in drag.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I am Maori, Chinese and Scottish. I come from Auckland, Born and raised in Auckland. I come from a family of four and a huge extended family. What's your earliest memory of someone else being gay? Someone else? Probably in the music scene in the eighties. I really didn't know that they were gay. The term gay. You know what I mean? I just thought Oh, that looks exciting. It looked dangerous, but it looked like fun. [00:00:30] Yeah, Queen Village people so larger than life. You know, um, big costumes in the colour. I think the colour is what drew me. And what about in your own circle? So, like, um, family, wider family or friends? I mean, did you know anyone who was gay then? Not so much. No, not that they were out. Uh, in 70. I didn't know that the term [00:01:00] that was the term that was to be used. Um, so I had no idea. I just thought what I what I was going through was normal. What were you going through? Uh, I suppose an identity because I I knew where I fit in the family. But as far as my sexual identity was concerned, I didn't know where I fit because the Norman a Maori family. As you get married, you have three or four Children. You know, you give, you give the grandparents. [00:01:30] Hm. And I didn't fit into that because my brother was married getting married. My sister was married with a child and being the third child in line with it. Mm. No, that's not for me. So, what kind of age did you start having those kind of thoughts? Oh, quite early on. Um, I actually not so much thoughts. I had an experience, probably when I was [00:02:00] nine or 10, and I thought we were just playing around. You know, one thing led to another and and something happened, and I thought, Oh, and at first I didn't quite really know how to take it, So I sort of just brushed it off and thought childhood experience, you know. But then it came up again in my teens, and I thought, Oh, you know, I quite like that. I thought Oh, and I thought, Why should I fight it? [00:02:30] That was in my teens. So I think probably the first experience would have been nine or 10, but I would have had, Um I remember having having thoughts of what they called gay thoughts Now, probably when I was five or six. You know, looking at. And I remember my uncle used to have, um, Penthouse magazines, and I used to when we used to go to his house, I remember reading them or looking [00:03:00] for the at the pictures. And I thought, Oh, and nothing used. Nothing used to happen to me when I looked at the picture of a naked woman. But when the when a picture of a naked guy came, I went Wow, you know? Well, there is a big world out there, isn't there? So it is big. So did you have, uh, trouble accepting that side of you, or was it just a natural thing that you said? Oh, well, it was all very natural. I didn't fight like I didn't fight against it. And [00:03:30] did I have trouble accepting it? Well, I suppose acceptance comes in many different forms, so no, not not as such. I, I suppose. Now I'm contradicting myself, I suppose. Yes, in a way. With regards to my family and my parents, I didn't want to disappoint them. And because my brother was having Children, my sister was having Children. And I was like, Oh, well, they've got enough grandchildren anyway. So [00:04:00] So I suppose in that respect, though, I I did have trouble. Can you tell me a wee bit about the, uh, cultural differences of homosexuality? Say, like in a in a Chinese family or a Maori family. What are the, uh, I mean, is homosexuality kind of accepted? Hm? I think, historically in Maori. Um, a lot of the a lot of the chiefs did have a, um they call them. So they were like a support for [00:04:30] their chief, so to speak. Because a lot of the old chiefs they couldn't do a lot of, like, everyday tasks like feed themselves clean themselves that was left to predominantly, but And Maori? Is it accepted? Outwardly? Yes, inwardly. Probably not. I think once you get a lot of the old Maori on a situation that probably won't be accepted. But in saying that, [00:05:00] um, homosexual Maori always brought forward to do the so do the singing. We're always in the kitchen doing the cooking, setting the tables. So the the supposedly female roles Yeah, So in that respect? Yes. Accepted. But that will lead to society. Probably not Chinese. I really don't have an inkling into the Chinese community. Um, as such my family, sort of my [00:05:30] father's family. So I don't have that insight into a Chinese family. Sorry. So did you have a kind of a coming out process or a coming out coming out coming out, coming out? Not as such I spoke to and this might be quite common, but I spoke to my mother first. I told her that I was gay and, you know, I was working at the hotel in town, and so I was on the graveyard shift. I told Mum in the morning before, you know, before I went to sleep, told mum, [00:06:00] and then I went to the graveyard shift. I came home that night and Dad was sitting on the end of my bed Now. Holy shit, what's going on here? And then he said, Oh, look, Mum and I had had a talk and she told me what you told her, and it doesn't matter. We still love you. You're our son. And that's all I wanted to hear, you know, at the end of the day. So as as far as coming out, it wasn't so much traumatic for me. I had built up, I think, in my own, all the dramas in my own head [00:06:30] because I had heard about other people's coming out and how tragic and sad they were. And I thought, Oh, my Lord, what's gonna go on? So you always think the worst scenario and think so when whatever does happen, you think Oh, OK, well, it wasn't really that bad, so it wasn't a bad coming out at all for you was family acceptance an important thing? Huge, hugely, hugely important. Predominantly my immediate family like parents, brothers [00:07:00] and sisters. Bye, my mother from the Maori side. Her family was so accepting it wasn't funny. You know, they just and a lot of them said a lot of the art said we knew. We knew you didn't need to tell us. And I thought, Oh my gosh, go through all that drama and you're only here for years and to be told we already knew. But that's the difference between I suppose, the cultures, the Maori and the Chinese side. Yeah, and what age were [00:07:30] you then Oh, working in a hotel. So about 9. 18. 19, I suppose. And I don't know really how it came about for me to want to tell my parents. I suppose it was that acceptance and to be true to who you are. So can you paint a picture for me Of what it was like to be, uh, a 19 year old? Uh, just kind of newly out. And we're talking about the late eight eighties. What was it like? [00:08:00] It was, um, offhand. What I can think of first thing that comes to mind was exciting. Um and yeah, I, I admit it to late eighties. It sort of quite frightening as well, in the same respect. That's exciting. But I think those two come hand in hand now. Um, So I was being Maori Chinese. I've always had to fight at school because I never felt into the Maori box because they don't look predominantly Maori. Um [00:08:30] and I don't look predominantly Asian either. So I get I've been fighting Not not so much fighting, I suppose. Just I suppose, dabbing on both sides. But the Maori, the Maori community never fully embraced me at school Neither did the Asian community, so I really didn't fit them either. So I just started up my own group. So at school, were you bullied? Um, at any point, because of your sexuality, not so much sexuality and more [00:09:00] so ethnics. Like I said before because I didn't fit in the Maori community and it wasn't so much bullied, It was sort of, I don't know, it wasn't like bully Today is is quite serious, though, Um, I suppose it's just more of a teasing jibing sort of carry on. And they all did it with sort of a grain of salt, I suppose, like they'd laugh about it a straight afterwards, [00:09:30] and it wasn't anything too serious. I mean, that's just how it was. And I didn't see it as bullying because I had two older siblings at that school and a younger sibling, and it really wasn't wasn't an issue, really. What kind of things would they say? Yeah, like you useless Mary, uh, open your eyes and my eyes. As you can see, my eyes aren't slanted. Are they more narrow? Those sorts of things. [00:10:00] How did you kind of cope with that stuff? Laugh it off. Or like, I used to play water polo. So sports, um, joined social groups. We had, uh, a Maori group. So I found I suppose I found safety in numbers. Um, not and I'm not saying that I had a a group of gay friends around me. It was just a a group of good friends, good [00:10:30] mates that I had probably set the foundations in intermediate school right through. You know, the late eighties, uh, we we had just had the passing of the homosexual law reform. And also, uh, HIV aids, uh, had been with us for a number of years. Did either of those things impact on you? Uh, the homosexual law reform for sure gave me the freedom to be out who I was in the eighties. Absolutely. And I need to acknowledge [00:11:00] those that fought for, for our rights for that with respect to the reform here. Um, yeah, it just and it just allowed me to be me, you know, without any legal constraints. Yeah, during law reform, Did you protest or did you do any kind of actions? I mean, were you politicised? Not at all. No, no, not at all. And I didn't [00:11:30] really catch on to that side of Of of so-called gay life. It just didn't appeal to me. And I suppose it wasn't as colourful as what I thought other parts of the community were. What about HIV? A I DS Yeah, um, that was That was a scary time. And I lost about three or four friends in the eighties of through AIDS. I went, and this one in Sydney. [00:12:00] It's quite hard for me sitting here in 2013 to kind of try and imagine what it would have been like in those early years of HIV aids. I mean, are you Is it possible to to paint a picture for me of, um because I mean, you were 18 19, weren't you? Yeah, it was probably a picture of fear for a lot of the gay community. Yeah, and so much and so called straight community. Because you as a gay man, you are a a [00:12:30] brother, a father, a son. You know, you're so many other things than just being a gay man. So I think all communities are affected by HIV, not just the gay community. But the picture would have been one of dread. One of fear. Um, there was a lot of stigma because you'd see someone walking down the street and go to and you think, Oh, and it wouldn't be said it would just be whispered, but you can see what they were whispering, you know, I thought, Oh, that's not a nice [00:13:00] thing to see or to be a part of. So it was one of dread and fear, and but, you know, society and the media had a lot to play with that because they I think they blew it up and called it the gay disease in the eighties because you had people like Freddie Mercury. It was quite out and proud about it, too, and a greater role model for our community. But still [00:13:30] you society had that stigma, and it's still like that today. It's just very quiet, you know, it's they still say beneath their breath when they see you. If you got someone walking past, you go, they go, You know, they go look a and people go, Oh, he might be thick. And as soon as you they they think you're sick if you look sick and if you If they knew you were gay, they automatically thought you've got AIDS, not HIV. You got AIDS [00:14:00] the year the picture would be one of fear, I suppose. But still exciting in the eighties. Yeah, because you've got the flip side of fear A which is joy and and happiness. So do you think that's what happened in terms of, you know, if there's a lot of fear going on, then there's kind of a lot of kind of access in terms of joy, and and I mean, that makes perfect sense. Because if you think that, like a lot of the community, like I remember my mate Rudy, [00:14:30] he said, Oh, well, it doesn't matter. I'm gonna die. So everything was in excess, you know? And I think the gay community is like that. What I what I've seen and what I've been involved in its success or nothing Access, Sorry or nothing. I wonder also, um, one of the things with people up here in is that, um quite a number of these people are are young. Absolutely. Yeah, and so it's quite unusual to see kind of somebody [00:15:00] in their late twenties really gaunt. But see a lot of it was passed off as cancer in the eighties. A lot of it was like we had a couple of staff and I was managing a restaurant here in Auckland and they said to me, Oh, look, I'm gonna leave. I'm gonna resign I said, Oh, what's going on? He goes, Well, just between like they tell me just between you and I, we're not telling you the stuff. And I said, Not a problem. That's That's your life, you know? But then they [00:15:30] say, Oh, look, just to that I've got cancer. So it was even being perpetuated from the gay community as well, you know, And it's cancer. Even today, cancer is still accepted, isn't it? And people go, Oh, you poor thing with cancer. They don't say that about people. They they and I say, poor thing you get so that stigma is very much alive. And what about your introduction to drag? When when did you first start looking at the [00:16:00] introduction to drag? Would have been about mid mid eighties. I'm thinking mid eighties I was living in town with There was three of us. We just thought we'd experiment One day. You know, And we did. It was me, a huge guy, and I thought, surely not, but, you know, we saw what? Who do we see? We can I give names. We saw Buckley be the Bambi, right? The three of them. And you've got [00:16:30] Giant, Medium Giant and Little Giant And wow. And that was just so exciting to us to see that. And my mate said, Should we go? Yeah. And I was thinking and I remember thinking in my head Oh, what a lot of ring. You got to get this and that. And because that just doesn't appear, does it? That just doesn't happen overnight. And you think, Oh, there's so much planning involved. So we thought we'd give it a go. We did. We did the hero parade down Queen Street, so I don't know what year [00:17:00] that was. That would have been, uh I think that could be early nineties because they didn't start hero the nineties. I could be right too. I'm a bit skew with my date. So, um, but we did that. The hero parade down Queen Street. There was three of us. We had the same outfit on just different colour. fabric And we had this huge big head pieces which we made in in the flat. It was just amazing. So all of that preparation getting ready, making [00:17:30] it because we made the costumes. Yeah, we made the costumes. We made the head pieces all in the flat and all that time we bonded like, say, I say two or three weeks prior to the parade, you know, getting ready in Maori, we call it because you're it's when you're getting ready for an event like a, um, a feed or or anything you get a a lot of people around you and you, you do know the preparation for the for [00:18:00] the feed and by doing all that you're talking, you're singing, you're telling stories. That's what we call the same thing for this. We had those probably three or four of us in the fit, constantly working on these outfit. It was just amazing. And the energy in the, you know, was just electric. Talk to me about that. That that whole process of why it's important to to have that time where you're telling stories and interacting Uh, it's all it's all. It's all that bonding time that [00:18:30] you're sharing. And you all three of us were hitting for the same goal so that when we were marching down Queen Street, we looked like a unit, uh, one unit rather than 33 people walking down the street in the same costume in different colours. So by spending all that time together and making the outfit from scratch, we became one unit. So walking down Queen Street, that's what you saw was the one unit and people were and still today people mention I remember you were back [00:19:00] in the hero braid. Oh, wow, he goes, Yeah, that was the best. Pray that ever was, I suppose because it was new too, wasn't it? So where do you begin if you've never done drag before? I mean, how do you even go about thinking what what you need and how you do things? So what we saw, like I mentioned before, we saw Ber of Buckley. Bambi, you got the three. And on mas, it looks so effective. That's what we thought. And because of buck with bam there, [00:19:30] we download it in the stages. Uh, what did they have? But they all had, like, different outfits on still very much themselves. So we just thought, OK, we need a costume. So we just sat around One day he said, Oh, you, you draw what we what you want to wear I said, You I said, Help, help me. So I drew the the bottom part, like the pants I I we we argued for about not argued, discussed about for an hour and a half of [00:20:00] because the other two didn't want to wear, um, pants. They wanted to dress and you can do drag in like trousers with, um, flares. I said, Oh, because you know a lot of the conception of drag. Well, I think my early conception of drag would have been full length dress covered from head to toe, nothing showing but your face. So that's what that's what my mates wanted [00:20:30] was the full length sequence number. Oh goodness May. Can't we do something a little bit more exciting? But then the year following the first er we did, we all did full length sequence, and I thought I had to give give in to my mates, you know, because I thought I got my way, so to speak in the first one and made We made trousers, flares, um, crop tops with flay arms and a huge, great big headpiece because the silhouette was just like, big [00:21:00] up top, coming right down to really, really slim and then flare out again. So it was that whole, um I suppose elongated feminine shape, wasn't it? But that's the look that I was going for, and that's what we achieved. But where do you start? Well, you you come up with a concept concept, um, concept fabric outfit, and then all this was like hair and makeup, and it's quite a major. It just doesn't [00:21:30] just happen. And I used to admire, like the likes of Ood Booth and Bambi because they were just you'd look at them and go Wow, because you can see, like, you could appreciate the amount of work that went into creating this Wow. And it's not just about the kind of the the outward appearance, but it's also a mental shift how you hold yourself, how you move your hands and arms. And [00:22:00] how did you go about transforming yourself? All of that was a learning learning process. So the first time we did it, we went so I don't suppose we were that conscious of it. We just thought we were guys dressing up in a frock and having a good time, so to speak. Didn't think about the mannerisms, the, um even the mental shift. No, I suppose we did think about it, because [00:22:30] I remember, um, this guy came up to me and said, God, you're beautiful. But you got big hands, so to speak. And you can't do anything about a man's hands, can you? I mean, everything else you can cover with with, um, fabric or accessories, but your hands, at least you got gloves on, I suppose. Um, but yeah, he said, Oh, you're beautiful. But except for your big hands, and I don't think I've got very big hands at all, but And when an outfit is quite tight fitting, I suppose the hands look quite [00:23:00] large. And what about heels? Did you wear heels? Yes. Our heels we got from I think we asked around, you know, um, a couple of the the the drag queens ever on the scene, and they said, Oh, you know, because a lot of them were more than happy to give you some tips and give you their old stuff. You know, second hand. Well, not second hand, I suppose. Just hand me downs, But we will gladly, gladly take them. So he [00:23:30] was, um You either, But must see my mate was a size 13 shoe. And in the eighties, they didn't have shoes that size. I remember we went out to Idaho to a Pacific island shop where they sold the big shoes because the Pacific Island women had big feet. Apparently, um, and he got a pair of shoes there, but they were, like, low heels sort of thing. But it's all for the effect, wasn't it? You know, so he didn't mind, so yeah, just either. Source it from, [00:24:00] um friends, drag queens, family asked. I asked a couple of aunties if they had any old shoes they didn't need. What do you want them for? A boy? I said, Oh, my friend. My friend wants them. Oh, OK. Have a look at my room. Had you ever worn heels before? No, I think I. I remember trying the money trying moms on when I was a kid. Probably about five or six. Curiosity, [00:24:30] you know, But I thought, Oh, my gosh, no way. And you know, that was the one thing that I was sort of not afraid but anxious of was the shoes high of the shoes and Oh, no, Nice God, how embarrassing. So I was I was anxious about the heels, more so of the embarrassment factor. Mm. And I thought, Well, if I could [00:25:00] make a feature of some other feature of me, so to speak, people would look at that rather than say, you know, try and disguise because ja is about disguising your your not so good bits and emphasising your good bits. Well, that's what is to me. So what were you emphasising? My eyes, My skin colour? Because I'm quite olive or I'm Olive. But in summer I go really, really dark. So I play on the on the good parts, you know, good features. [00:25:30] Was doing that first hero parade the first time you had been out in public and drag. No, I don't think it was. We used to go. Now when I say we there was three of us we used to do. Um, do you remember that club up in street was a predominantly Pacific island club. So we would go up there and see because the Pacific island community is a lot more accepting [00:26:00] why that is. I'm not. I don't have an insight into the Pacific Island community, but they were more accepting. And a couple of our friends would say I come up to the club with us so we'll just go up there and that That's for the first time I had to drag up there. Loved it. I loved the attention that I got from from the supposedly straight men with their wives. I got I love the attention from the woman because I was slimmer than them, you know? Look at this. Look at this. Slim bits. They go. Oh, [00:26:30] and they got look at his skin. So I loved all that attention. But your question was the first time I did Dr Would have been at the Pacific Island La Panin Club in Auckland, and it was a blue sequence or green sequence. Can you remember the feeling initially getting ready? I was I was quite anxious, Um, first time and all so but excited [00:27:00] and my my mates would say, I know you look great. It's like everything was about boosting their confidence. Hey, so and you have free drinks for Dutch carriage. And the feeling when I walked in when we walked in the club was like we were on the red carpet. I the whole club doesn't because we were, I suppose, new to the scene, so to speak. And my, my, um my mate, a tall, tall guy, quite broad. And I'm not so tall and and quite [00:27:30] small framed. And then wow, look at that. Ok. Wow, look at that. So I love the attention. Yeah. You were saying earlier that, um, other queens would give you tips and even kind of hand me downs. Was there much competitiveness within the kind of queen scene? Yes, there was. And that sort of contradicts what I said about sharing, doesn't it? But the competition was more so, um, outwardly. So [00:28:00] what do I mean by that? What it was how many of the straight guys you could get around you, so to speak. And I suppose that came from like, if if one of the drag queens would give you a pair of shoes and they see you in their shoes like, oh, they look, they look good on you that compliment you, But as soon as the straight men came around you, that's when the competition came out. Because But I don't know. I didn't understand it at first. You know, I thought, Oh, what's the [00:28:30] hassle? But I suppose it was competing for their attention, wasn't it? So And the Queens did share a lot of information. Like they said they would say to you, girl, you're gonna dress like a woman, talk like a woman. The places what they say to you Have you got your your launch away on, please. And for me, that's that's a step a bit further than drag wearing [00:29:00] a woman's lingerie. I never I mean, I wore the bra just for the padding to hold the padding and everything. But the knickers in that night didn't didn't really appeal to me. End of the day, you're still a man and you know I. I enjoyed I loved the attention and the so I suppose admiration when you're in a frog and in the eighties it was the straight men or so called straight men [00:29:30] loved being seen with a drag, you know, they would hold on to you and say, Come on. I'll buy you a drink and take you here, take you there and oh, my Lord. Because by doing so, that brought the attention to someone who was probably not so overt, you know, quite shy. And that's something that I always always insisted, and and anyone who had to drag with drag with was to go around and talk to everybody. And [00:30:00] wherever we were, say hello, make them feel welcome and put them at ease because, I mean, it took it would take sometimes three hours to put all this together. And if you're just gonna go there and sit in the corner, Well, what's the point? I really don't see the point in it. So I always make an effort to go and say hello to people and make them feel welcome. Uncomfortable? I didn't know. No, I had an agenda or anything. Just I just wanted to talk to people. And that's my nature, though, [00:30:30] when you say, uh, people would say to you, Oh, you've got to talk like a woman as well. What does that mean? How how would you change your voice and and what you were saying to sound more kind of like a woman I wouldn't. So I was told I'm gonna dress like a woman, talk like a woman girl. Talk like a girl. No, I didn't. You could clearly see that I wasn't a girl. Um, and that that that wasn't why [00:31:00] I did. Drag wasn't to be a woman or to be a girl. My whole idea of doing Dr was to experience that excitement. That admiration, the camaraderie between the queens. I wasn't doing it to be a girl, you know, I've never done it to be a girl. I don't want to be a girl or a woman quite happy as a man. So you wouldn't change your voice at all all [00:31:30] over it. But I didn't think I had a very deep, manly voice, anyway. Wouldn't get softer or I suppose, soft, uh, turn the volume down a little bit. We'll see the volume up. One of the two. What about language? Are there is Is there like a kind of a a queen language for sure, for sure there is, and it's all coded. So you put it in in front of the first letter of the word [00:32:00] or after the first letter. So instead of they go, it'll be something with an N in it, or everything is and it's sort of emphasised more so it's dragged out. So, for instance, the word girl became and it's just dragged out and it goes like that with the the intonation. Good. And you can tell just by their tone [00:32:30] whether they were pissed off at you or if they are jealous or because they just give you that eye and go Good nail, they all, Uh oh, so yeah, absolutely a language have bought it. Yeah, I bought it. They go have bought it. What? I bought it. So if they see a straight guy, there was quite cute. I bought it. They go, girl, Go, go. You go get that one. [00:33:00] It was all very, very, very entertaining. And because the straight so called straight community didn't know what you were talking about, they just think you speaking to. But to us, it was it. Look, get that one over very much code. And, you know, about two weeks ago, we ran into this guy from Wellington camera from Wellington, um who I hadn't seen for years and we were talking and he [00:33:30] started using all those old words again. And I thought, Shit, it's like I'm back in the eighties. He goes, What? I said, you talk like all the old old crew. What do you mean? Old crew, you know, gave him some names and get Oh, you're that old. I'm not that old. So there's a whole heap of people out there that still know their language. And I'm sure today's drag queens will have their own language again. Hm? [00:34:00] Can you describe some of the clubs that were around Auckland out? It was the bird cage. I think they used to have a, um a like a coffee group or something on a Sunday or something. Um, West Side, which was down in They had the sauna upstairs in the bookshop downstairs, but the bookshop originally was on High Street. The same [00:34:30] Bret Shepherd and Tony Krovi clubs. Other clubs, um, called Club 21 was on the corner. Do you remember? It's all on the corner of High Street. It's all change now, though, Um, club, other clubs, any of the other couples, uh, staircase really forth street. The times we used to get down there and because it was up huge stairs. So it must have been [00:35:00] about 2030 steps to get into the club. It was huge, but it was so exciting going up those stairs, especially if you're in in like, Oh, my gosh, It was like climbing up on stage almost and then coming around the corner. And then everyone in the top, um, and the clubs used to be over here. That used to be on top of cook. She marketing. How old are you? You remember all these names I'm giving [00:35:30] you dear? You are, but you keep nodding your head. So you didn't even clue what I'm talking about, do you? There used to be a, um sorry. A market down here called Cook Street Market and above that used to be a club called Ace of Clubs. I remember seeing because we used to go to the market every Sunday, right? And I remember seeing the poster they were advertising Diamond Lil Oh, what's [00:36:00] that? And I used to when we were kids, we used to sing with my auntie and go around and do the whole shopping mall circuit thing. So we were singing with, um, any as Children. Kid singers? Yeah, going around to all the shopping malls and singing. So I was not so much introduced, exposed to sort of cabaret life and show life. [00:36:30] And I just thought, Wow, this is where I This is where I think Well, I thought I flourished, you know, because I would my my sister and I would sing, and I really enjoyed it. I enjoyed the stage once again. The attention. Uh, yeah, I loved it. So can you describe for me some of the performances that you've you've done in Cabaret? So we did that one up at Laina. So, Miss, [00:37:00] I don't know what year it was. Um, Wigs on waterfront. We used to do every year. Uh, mhm, Uh, legends? I don't know. If you remember, legends used to be up on road. We would just do like one off shows here and there. People would, um, other joke queens would ring us and say, Oh, come and do a show such and such, So? OK, what time? Yeah, OK, so we'd be there, And that's sort of how it went [00:37:30] where you'd get like in the drag scene there was always there's always been a drag mother. So the mother of all the drag queens sort of looks after everybody. But, um, so much the queen of the Drags. They would pretty much organise all the shows and they'd know all the other drag queens who to get and to come and do a show. Little word of mouth. What makes a good drag performance? [00:38:00] Energy, enthusiasm? Because anyone can get up there and lip sync to a song, Can't they, um, the look and not take yourself so serious because that comes across on stage. If if you're all uptight and anxious about your next move, people can see that we did a show one time down and works on Waterfront and I. I won't say any names, but we were doing the show right, and there's We'd rehearsed this one number [00:38:30] for a couple of weeks, and we thought we had all the steps down pack, which was cool. Get down the wigs and waterfront and you're surrounded by all these other drag queens and hundreds of people down there screaming and laughing during the show. And then my drag partner's wig came off because There's a move where we had to do it, wave their arms. And he had we had bracelets. And the bracelet must have caught the wig. We know, and I looked at him in the head, and he is like his mouth just dropped [00:39:00] up. Oh, my God. Uh, what can we do? What can we do? So we just carried on, which is one of those things. I mean, you could see everyone down there knew that it was wigs on waterfront, so they were interested in frogs doing shows, and literally, the wig did end up on the wig did come off on the waterfront. We laugh about it now, of course. But on that day, it wasn't very funny for him. You said earlier that, um, [00:39:30] in dressing in drag, you wanted the attention but didn't necessarily want to be a woman. And I'm wondering what was, uh, from from your perception, you know, was there any kind of conflict between, say, transsexuals and and drag queens? Did Did you find that personally? No, I never had any conflict with any, uh, transsexuals. I don't know why. Why? A transsexual dress is as a transsexual. I have no idea. [00:40:00] I just didn't drag for that attention from from people, regardless of who they were. And so I really don't know about the transsexual community. Speaking of attention, I mean, how was it for you doing something like that? First hero parade down Queen Street? Can you Can you remember that the attention was electric because there was thousands of people on Queen Street screaming and shouting. And I think [00:40:30] prior to doing that, that hero parade, the biggest parade I would have been to would have been the Santa Parade sitting on the side of Queen Street waving a little flag. And I always remember that attention that the people in that parade got. And I thought, 01 day and secretly sitting there I was thinking one day flying my live, waving my little flag. I think one day that could be me one day and then 10, 15 years down the track Here I am, walking down Queen Oh, [00:41:00] my Lord. But their Yeah, their teaching was just electric. The cameras were just going flat tack. The music was pumping everything. I think everything was just spot on for that first parade down Queen Street the energy was there, the energy was so electric. And I suppose that comes from a whole group of people marching into this bit [00:41:30] of the same drum. If that makes sense, did you have a drag name? Miscellaneous is my drag name. What was my drag name? Miscellaneous. I chose because of my cultural identity. It's bit of a mix, A bit of this bit of that bit of that. Put it all in the pot. And what do you come up with? A miscellaneous pot. That's a miss for obviously obvious reasons. Miss whatever. Um I met [00:42:00] a misbehaving and there was another mass I meet. Can't remember that other one. Sorry. So there was a few miss adjective words out there. You say miscellaneous was your drag name. So you're you're not doing drag anymore. I haven't done I. I don't do drag. Currently I last time I did would have been this year 2013 in February [00:42:30] for the Pride parade. I was approached to be on a on a float and and I thought I'd just stand up there as a man and wave. And then the organiser asked me if you would like to do drag. We would be honoured to have you on on the float as drag. And I thought, Oh, I know. Straight away, the barriers come up. Oh, no, no, no. This is too hard because I've had a stroke. Everything is now 10 times of an effort, you know, And because I'd I'd gotten rid [00:43:00] of everything. I got rid of the shoes, the outfits, the wigs, the makeup So I would have to start from scratch. So all of that was way daunting for me. And I thought, Oh, no. Initially, my initial response to him was, I think I'll just stay on the track and wave. Is it me? Let's go. That's fine. See how? Sit on it for a few weeks and see how you think. And I think when I spoke to friends about it, they said, Oh, yeah, you can [00:43:30] do it. You can do it. It wouldn't take that much. We'll help you. But everyone was offering to help right now. Oh, so then it became a mental shift for me because the physical I was putting those physical barriers up because I wasn't sure I was anxious, and I wasn't sure about my stability and everything. All of those things. Um, but once the physical got sort of sorted out, the mental sort of fell into place. And I thought, Oh, [00:44:00] and you know what I recall? That I recalled recalled that attention and that electric enthusiasm, I thought, Oh, yes, I can do that. And then I think once I mentally shifted to saying, Yes, I can do it. Everything else sort of fell into place. So I don't do drag. Currently, I did drag in February, this 2013. That was the first [00:44:30] time in over 10 years and that was just been like that was like, I'd never done drugs before in my life. So it's a whole different experience. So you put a a brain injury on top of all that, and then to come into to the drag world is just mind blowing. So what age were you when you had your stroke? I had a stroke at 36. And what kind of effect did that have on you? Um well, physically [00:45:00] on my left side, uh, semi paralysed speech was pretty much gone, so I had to learn how to speak. I had to learn how to walk, talk, drive, do everything again. It's a huge effect. So the life or the life that I knew was gone. Let's start again for a second chance, wasn't it? That's how I looked at it and getting rid of, uh, the drag costumes and wigs. And was [00:45:30] that all part of the stroke? Uh, post stroke? Looking back, I think, No, it wasn't. I we got rid of it all. Actually, you know it It was because my drag partner, everything was stored at at his house. So after the stroke, I think that's when we decided to because he said to me, Do you do you want any of the the drag stuff? And I said, No, I don't because I At that time I couldn't walk. [00:46:00] I couldn't talk. I mean, I was barely speaking and the last thing I could think of was walking down the street in a frock or a pair of heroes. So I said, No, I don't want any of it. So that's when it was sort of out the window. What was that like to kind of give that performance side of yourself away? Um, what was it like I suppose in a way quite freeing for me because I could [00:46:30] then, um, concentrate all my energy and time on getting well getting up cos I was told after straight Oh, you'll never walk. You never talk. Um, they talked to my family and my parents saying that he will never talk. He will never walk. And I remember lying there thinking you don't know shit. And I think the first word I said after stroke was the F word to the doctor because I was so angry I couldn't speak, but and [00:47:00] I remember sitting there lying there for I don't know how long it was. But every day they came and they said what I couldn't do, but they would tell the people that were in with me He will never walk. He would never talk. And I heard this for a good month every day. So, of course, the first word that came out was the F word. I know you. You don't know who I am where I come from. So it was heartbreaking. Absolutely. [00:47:30] So I went through the whole grieving process because they they walk you through the processes after I, um after a stroke, and I thought, Oh, so I don't You know, I think it came at a good time in my life because prior to the show, I was so busy we were doing shows I was working. Um, I'm a chef by trade, and I worked in hospitality most of my life. So I was carrying that doing that day job going, going [00:48:00] home, getting putting a face on. That's another two hours to get ready for a night show, go to a night show, go out afterward, afterwards, socialise it and, you know, in the community, and then go home and sleep, get ready to go and do it all again. So I think it came in a quite an opportune time. Otherwise I would have just burnt out. It's only so long you can carry that on for so And by giving all that drag all my drag equipment away, [00:48:30] he gave me the chance to concentrate on getting better and getting well. Hm. And then this year, with the the Pride Parade being on that float, what was that feeling like? Oh, that was so cool. That attention again. Um and you know what happened when we got my mate and I got up to, um, Ponsonby Road straight [00:49:00] away. We had I'd say about five or six cameras around us, and we weren't even. I wasn't even on the float at that stage. I just walked from where we parked the car to the meeting point. By the time I got to the meeting, put the lights, there were cameras around us and all these people wanted photos with me, and I thought, What's going on? And one of the marshals said to me, Oh, look who's come out of hiding because I hadn't done drag for over 10 years. So they thought, Oh, my Lord, Mr is back [00:49:30] in town. So that attention and that that, um, acknowledgement was huge. It was a good confidence boost for me. I loved it. What do you think your your most memorable performance is to date in drag and drag? Memorable performance? Oh, or the one that's had the biggest impact on you. Biggest impact on me would have been, um, [00:50:00] the museum. No. Was it the museum? Yes. Actually, it would have been the museum because we did a show at the museum where we were doing? Um, sort of like ballroom dancing style show. And someone commented, commented after the show, someone who saw the show and didn't see they said something to the extent of just two guys dancing together because [00:50:30] I was in a frog. I think I was in a gold sequence or something and the guy was in a suit and the comment. It really, really stuck to me and hurt because he said, It's just two guys dancing. I don't want to watch, You know, he didn't want to watch this, but he didn't see the beauty of the dance or what us, as a group had created, so that would have had the biggest impact on me. And I just thought, Oh, that sort of took me back because it was different attention that I hadn't [00:51:00] previously received. And I thought, Hm and I also had to acknowledge that not everyone is going to accept. You know, everyone's entitled to their beliefs. Can't beg someone for having their own beliefs. And what about in terms of, uh, positive response? You know what? What's the one that you kind of hold on to? Positive wigs on waterfront? Um and I suppose that Museum one going back to that museum [00:51:30] was not a highlight for me, but memorable. Um, because of the environment. It's quite stuffy in the museum, and people are quite proper, whereas going to the other extreme. You got the wigs on waterfront where everyone's screaming and out singing and screaming at you works on waterfront. Definitely the most, um, exciting performance because it's immediate. An instant. Yeah, [00:52:00] you get it straight away. Not like the museum where they just talk quietly under their breath about it, you know, whereas who was on the waterfront, they're screaming at you. And even if they didn't like you, they'd still scream at you, You know, for the fact that everyone's just there for the same reason to raise fundraiser. So definitely works on the front. Oh, your hero. Parades are good, too. And, um, that first parade parade [00:52:30] probably boils down to all that attention and and admiration. Stop starved of attention when really from birth. You're given so much E. Um, if I can just thank all our, um, our drug community from from the old ones or the sorry, the mature ones, too, [00:53:00] And the ones that are not here today. Like, um, Victoria. Dr. Pussy Galore was a drag name Courtney card. So there's a lot of, um, previous drag queens that I need to pay homage to.

IRN: 762
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/south_anna.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004263
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089557
TITLE: Anna - South
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; FtM; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Nayland Alliance of Gays and Straights (NAGS); Nelson; Q Youth (Nelson); Rule Foundation; South (series); activism; adoption; books; children; civil unions; clothing; community; equality; family; gay; gender; gender identity; hui; lesbian; marriage; marriage equality; media; parents; questioning; representation; sexuality; stereotypes; support; transgender; travel; youth
DATE: 4 October 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Nelson, Nelson, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Anna talks about living in Nelson and being attracted to women.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How do you describe your identity? Um, I don't think I really describe it, but I've only been attracted to one person in my life, and that's been a woman. Um, and so I guess that means I'm gay, But I'm not sure. When did you first become aware, um, that you were addicted for, uh, when I was 20. So three years ago? Yeah. What was that like? Um, [00:00:30] I didn't really think about it that much to start with, Um, because I thought my parents would be fine with it. Um, but then suddenly, I realised that they were not cool with that. And, um, that some other people weren't cool with it either. Um, I didn't really realise that would happen because I'd never had an issue with other people being gay. So what kind of reactions did they get or how did you realise that they weren't up? Um, they didn't invite my girlfriend around for dinner or [00:01:00] anything like that. Um, and they never talked about it. Um, And when I told them, they just said, Oh, whatever you want, what's best for you or something like that. But, um, I could tell they weren't very happy. Yeah. So have you never kind of thought that you, um, might be attracted to someone, or have you thought much about kind of sexual or romantic attraction before, Um, I thought about a little bit, but because I hadn't [00:01:30] been attracted to anyone I didn't really know, I just kind of assumed that I just hadn't met the right person yet. Yeah. Do you remember kind of getting any, like messages about, um, girl, Trans people when you were younger, from people or society? Um, I remember once when I was younger. Some of my parents' friends, um, the they split up and the woman had decided she was gay, and, um, [00:02:00] my mom and dad didn't really socialise with them anymore. But I didn't really kind of think about it or realise what that might have meant. Um, I can't really think of anything else when I was younger. I don't think I really knew much about any of it. Yeah. Do you think you were kind of, like aware that it was an option to be? Not for me? Not until probably seventh form at school. And, um, I saw the Q Youth group there um, or [00:02:30] the Nags Group. Um and I don't know. I just I didn't really know what it was at first, but I guess I found out later. Yeah. Do you remember kind of any education about sexual orientation or gender identity when you were at school, like in health class or anything like that? Absolutely none. I wasn't really aware that it was an option other than to be straight. I didn't kind of I didn't really know about anything [00:03:00] else. What other kinds of reactions have you had coming out to people? Have you come out to people? Um, yes, I have. Most people have been totally fine with it. Um, or I have just not even commented. Um, there's been occasional people who have said, Oh, if that's what you want to choose for yourself, then that's your choice. Um, and [00:03:30] there's been a couple of people who have had issues with it. Um, but they are now OK with it. So that's good. Yeah. What do you think? It's like being, um, a young, queer person in Nelson. Do you think it's different to other parts of New Zealand? Um, I think it might be because there's there isn't a university in Nelson. So, um, a lot [00:04:00] of the young people, once they finish school, they leave Nelson. Um, so I think there's not a huge population of people between about 18 and 27. So I think being young and Clara and Nelson during that age bracket, there's not many people that you can kind of identify with or yeah, talk about your experience with. So is there much of a queer community here? Um, [00:04:30] not really sure. Um, I think the groups for the people at school and stuff like that is really awesome. Um, and I've met heaps of wonderful people through people that I've met in Nelson, which has been really nice. Um, and I think there are some people in Nelson, but I don't know if they act as a community. I think that it's, um, a little bit more separated than that. [00:05:00] Yeah. What's your involvement been like in the if you call it the Community? Um, I've been to one of the key youth camps, which was really awesome. The, um, and just meeting some people who are queer. And Nelson has been really nice being able to talk about stuff with them and just be an environment, especially when I was starting to come to terms with it where I didn't feel like if I let something slip. I was scared. [00:05:30] It was nice. So I've really appreciated that kind of stuff. Yeah, just having that sense of, um, community or being in a space like that Important to you, I think it's massively important to have people around you who you can talk with who know what it's like to be queer rather than just understanding because they know someone who's queer kind of thing. I think it's it's really important to be able to connect in that way with someone [00:06:00] who kind of yeah knows what it's like. Do you think Nelson is kind of Is it a safe place to be clear? Like, Is it kind of the place where you could, like, walk down the hand and walk down the street holding hands with your partner? Um, I think so. But I'm not sure about in the schools. Um, I haven't had any problems in Nelson. The only thing that I've ever had was really, really funny. Was a drunk person yelling out Are you [00:06:30] two lesbian and then him saying I'm a lobster, so I don't think that counts as abuse. What do you think about the marriage equality bill that passed recently? I think it is massively important for, um, queer people to have the same rights as straight people. Because if they don't, that's basically a signal for the government to allow discrimination. So [00:07:00] as that philtres down, it just allows discrimination in personal lives. So I think it's massively important that the government of New Zealand is supportive of equality. And hopefully that, um, makes things a lot better on a personal level. Yeah. Does it have any personal meaning to you? Um, yes. I'd like to get married one day. Um, so, yeah, it does have quite a big personal meaning. Yeah. Um, are you interested in the kind of adoption side of that and the [00:07:30] adoption act stuff as well? Yeah, I think that's massively important for, um, gay people to be able to adopt kids together. Um, because it will be important for the people who want to adopt kids together. And also, it's important for discrimination stuff as well. Yeah. Were you involved in any of the activism around. Like, did you write a submission? Um, I wrote a submission, and I also, [00:08:00] um, tried to get some signatures, but when I put a paper out to gain some signatures, it was taken away. So I'm not quite sure what that was about, but yeah, where was the paper? Um, it was it was put in the library, and I thought that was a pretty safe place, but obviously not. Yeah, so that maybe show something about Nelson. Um, what do you think are some of the most important issues that are facing east in New Zealand at the moment? [00:08:30] Mm. I can only speak for myself because I'm not really sure about the whole community. Um, but I definitely think that one of the things that goes on is that the generation that's a bit older than the youth, um, having issues with it, um, the generations that are younger generally I've seen are much more cool with it because they've grown up [00:09:00] with it being ok. Um, but it's kind of like the parents and the grandparents, and it still creates awkwardness. Um, when you hang out with people who are of that generation or especially within families. I think that families, the older generation have grown up with this idea that if their Children are gay, that's gonna be a really hard life for them. And so it's almost like they're perpetuating that by not being OK with their Children being gay, Um, [00:09:30] even though it is probably a lot easier now than it was when they were younger. Yeah. What do you think the issues are going to be in the future? 50 years time? I'm hoping none. Which would be awesome. Um, yeah, I'm really hoping nothing. I can't see any issues. If it keeps going, how it's going, then hopefully not too much. I think we've got a long way to go with the rights [00:10:00] of trans people and discrimination and that. And I think that's a that's a massive thing that's lagging way behind it. It really needs to be dealt with. Um, so I think I'm hoping none. But I think if anything, it's probably that sort of area. Yeah. Have you kind of seen things progress much in your lifetime, or do you know much about like, um, the history of currents? Um, particularly in New Zealand? And what kind of things were, um, more permanent [00:10:30] issues in the past? Um, I don't know, a huge amount. Um, but I know that, like in the last I'm not really sure actually know that. It's got better a lot lately. Um, especially since 2005. I think it was when the civil rights Union stuff went through. May have been a different date. I'm not quite sure, but, um, yeah, [00:11:00] how important. Um, is kind of quite a railroad politics, um, stuff to you. Um, I think it's important in that. If queer and queer people, um, do not have the same rights as heterosexual people, then there's gonna be discrimination. And that's kind of where it comes from with me is that, um I think things are [00:11:30] important in that way, but I I'm not a very political person, so I'm not very involved in a lot of it. Yeah, what do you think about, um, the way queer and Trans people are represented in the media? Um, there's not much of it at all. There might be a couple of lesbians or gays, but, um, there's not. Not really. I haven't seen many trans people in the media, Um, [00:12:00] and not many queer people, either. So I think that it makes a huge difference when you can, especially if you don't have people who you can connect with and things like that. It makes a huge difference when you can see that in the media. And also that you know that straight people are watching it as well, and they will be informed. Um, especially when it's a good representation, Um, which I think is really important, especially [00:12:30] with things. How they are. Um yeah, and I think it's really important to have that. And I think there needs to be more of it. Can you think of any, um, things in the media where you have seen queer characters represented? Well, um, in some movies and some TV shows, But I don't really watch TV very much so. Mostly, there have been, um, recommendations from other queer people. I'll go get this [00:13:00] movie out. It's got a queer character in it or something like that. Um and yeah, I've read a few books with queer characters, but it's probably very few and far between in the library, So, yeah, Do you have a favourite book or movie? Or has there been any kind of character or storyline that's really resonated with you? Um, [00:13:30] I don't think so. Actually, um, most of the shows that I've seen or the movies or whatever have been queer characters, but quite mainstream queer characters like, apart from the fact that they're queer, they're extremely mainstream and normal. Um, and so you don't see anyone loving an alternative lifestyle or anything like that. The business woman or businessmen or business Trans people. [00:14:00] Not that there's actually I haven't seen any media representation of trans people or not much, actually, a little bit. Um, but, um, yeah, so I haven't really connected with him that that much. Yeah. Do you think, um, have you seen lots of stereotypes of queer characters? Massive. Yep. Um, on the shows that I've seen most of them have been really girly lesbian [00:14:30] characters or really girly gay characters. And the trans people have been either, um, like, really made up with makeup or, um, yeah, it's just it's not a very wide scope of people's experiences. I think I think it's quite a narrow, um, representation. Yeah. Do you think those assumptions and stereotypes are [00:15:00] kind of exist outside of the media as well. Like, um, with maybe, I don't know, family or friends or people, you know, like do they have assumptions about what a group is? I think they do have assumptions, but I think especially with my parents' generation, the assumptions are quite different than what's portrayed. Like, um, with my parents' generation, I think that there's a lot of OK, if you're gay, then you need to wear pants and you will have short hair and you'll look like [00:15:30] a guy. If you're a woman or if you're a man and you're gay, then you're going to look like a woman. It's it's, um yeah, I think my parents anyway were quite scared that I was going to stop wearing dresses, and every time my mom saw me for about two years, she'd say, I really love. If you wore a pink dress, Yeah, so I think there are some stereotypes out there. Yeah, Do you feel like you're challenging those stereotypes? [00:16:00] It's funny because I kind of feel really self-conscious when I do slightly challenge them. Even if it looks normal. Even if a straight person would dress that way, If I dress slightly boyishly, I feel slightly uncomfortable like Oh, no. Will someone know or will they think bad of me or something like that? Yeah. So sometimes I feel like OK, I'm kind of challenging it, but not really. And I'm a little bit scared of challenging it. Actually, [00:16:30] it's interesting. Are you part of any groups Kind of in or outside of the queer community or part of this cultural, um, work and not really anything else? A specific official group, but just groups of friends doing different stuff. And yeah. Are you out at work? Uh, yes, unofficially. Um, but [00:17:00] I'm not sure how everyone feels about that. I think they're fine with it, but, um yeah, and what kind of future do you do? You wanna stay in Nelson? Like, um, you mentioned getting married. What kind of work do you wanna do? Um, I'd like to travel some more. I've just been travelling overseas, and I'd like to do some more travel. Um, I'd like to find a job that I really, really enjoy. Um, I'd like to get married, and I'd also like to have kids and [00:17:30] have a house. Um probably a house truck, though, rather than a house. Yeah. Generally have a lot of fun if you could give one piece of advice to young queer people coming out. And Nelson, um, who might listen to this in the future? What would it be? Connect with other people who are gonna understand you. So come to kill you [00:18:00] and connect with people, even if you only come once and just hang out with people outside of the group or whatever. Just definitely make sure that you have people around you who are supportive and caring and to kind of understand what you're going through and are going to just be there for you. Yeah, I think it's massively important. Especially if you run into anything that makes you feel uncomfortable. Then you know you've got somewhere to go that people are gonna be fine [00:18:30] with. Whatever you are. Yeah. Do you think there is much support for, um, in New Zealand? Um, probably not as much as there needs to be, Um, there probably needs to be a heck of a lot more, um, especially education and schools and, um, sports groups and stuff like that. I think that especially the teachers and the principals and the sport coaches and all that need to get [00:19:00] on board and absolutely have a zero tolerance to anything that's queer or transphobic. Um, it needs to be created from the top down and the bottom up of supportive environments. Basically, because I don't think there's enough of that. Yeah, and maybe to finish up. What's your favourite thing about being a clean person in New Zealand? I get to wear my girlfriend's clothes. No, that's not probably what it is. [00:19:30] Um, uh, yeah. I don't know. I yeah, I don't know. I don't know if there's anything particularly special about it.

IRN: 761
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/south_spencer.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004262
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089556
TITLE: Spencer - South
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Butch is a Noun; GALS (Nelson College for Girls QSA); Heather Roy; Judaism; Kazam Youth Hui (2011); Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Nayland Alliance of Gays and Straights (NAGS); Nayland College; Nelson; Nelson College for Girls; Orange Is the New Black (tv); Q Youth (Nelson); S. Bear Bergman; The L Word (tv); The Persistent desire: a femme-butch reader; Wellington; anxiety; butch; coming out; community; depression; education; family; femme; fluidity; gender; gender identity; genderqueer; harassment; identity; intersectionality; lesbian; marriage; marriage equality; masculinity; media; mental health; pronouns; queer; queer straight alliance (QSA); representation; school; school uniform; single sex schools; suicide; support; transgender; tumblr. com; youth
DATE: 5 October 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Nelson, Nelson, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Spencer talks about identifying as butch and gender queer.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How would you describe your identity? But is the main one, I think on my tumble page, it says I am butch Gender queer, Jewish and sad. Um, I am gay every way. No matter who I'm attracted to, it still feels gay, because if I'm attracted to a girl, I feel like I'm a butch [00:00:30] girl. But if I'm attracted to a boy, I feel like I'm a boy. And then if I'm attracted to another gender queer person, it's the gayest because gender queer all the way. And I also think that Butch is a gender in itself. So, um, I'm not a butch lesbian. I'm just Butch. And that's the thing. Is that how do you, um, talk to other people about your identity, especially people who aren't part of the trans community and maybe [00:01:00] don't understand what that means? I Mostly I don't like, um, I know with my parents, I made them read. I made them read, Um, persistence by is is that, um I think it's Jo Nestle and whatever I made them. OK, um, so with my parents, with my mother, especially, I was just kind of offhand mention [00:01:30] being butch and she'd be like, Oh, don't say that. That's that's not nice. You're very pretty. You don't have to be butch. You don't have to be mean to yourself. And then I made her read assistance, and she was like, Oh, I get it now And that was a thing. But mostly, um, outside of the queer community, I just, um, describe myself as well. If people ask me, I will go into detail about being gender queer and being not feeling like a girl or a boy [00:02:00] and being specifically butch, but they don't ask me, um I just assume that they assume that I'm a butch lesbian, and that's how I kind of act around them. That's probably partially because of my anxiety that I don't want to upset the apple cart. Yeah. Yeah. What reaction? Um, did your mom and your family have once they read that book? I mean, I was like, I [00:02:30] was like this already. I just think they thought the butch was like dyke Or, you know, I thought there was a derogatory word. Um, they didn't realise that Butch was like, kind of like, you know, when it's it's a really hot day and um you haven't had you. You left your drink bottle at home, and you haven't had a drink all day. And you get home and you fill up like the biggest glass in the cupboard, and you just drink it all in one go. That is how described myself as Butch [00:03:00] felt the first time. And I don't think I don't think people who aren't in the queer community or even people who are just part of the, um, gay community instead of the queer community. I don't think that they understand that. Yeah. How did you How did you come to the term? But especially, I guess a lot of people, um, these days might see, but as a term that was associated with kind of lesbian spec in the I don't know, quite a long time ago. Um, but how [00:03:30] How did you find it? And how do you think it's evolved? Um, well, I mean, I knew what Butch meant, you know, growing up. Well, not growing up. But, you know, being 12 13 or whatever. And then I, um a person at Q youth le me a book, uh, called Butch is a noun, which is by SP Bergman, [00:04:00] and I was already, like, pretty masculine. But at that point, I wasn't sure if I was just a masculine girl or if I was a trans boy or if I was somewhere in the middle because all the gender queer people you see on the Internet are skinny and pretty. And, you know, I'm not skinny. Um, I'm a very specific [00:04:30] kind of I have very weird looks, I don't know, but, um, that the book was butcher's Anno and Big Beman opens by, say, talking about how they think that Butch is a gender in itself and you can be a butch lesbian. But you can also just be butch by itself. Do you know many other people who identify as or is there like an online community or anything else? I know more people [00:05:00] who are than Butch. I don't think I know anyone who's describe who has gone out of their way to describe themselves to me as Butch. I've I've talked to people and being like, Oh, by the way, do you identify as Butch? Because it's very lonely? Um, and part of part of my being butch is making Butch a safe thing to be because I think a lot of masculine people are just taking taking up space that isn't [00:05:30] theirs. And, um, I know a lot of I know a lot of, um, gender queer people, but not many. I don't think I've met any who specifically identifies Butch online too. Um, yeah, it's I. I think that's partly because it is seen as old fashioned. Um, do you want to, um, tell [00:06:00] me a bit more about, um, what you said about making but safe and, um, masculine people taking up too much space? Yeah, I I'm good at talking about this. OK, so a lot of a lot of masculine people, I, I OK, I'm most of my friends, a woman, or at least identified like, um, even my, um, male friends. [00:06:30] A lot of them identifies as FM, and for a long time, femininity has been seen as weak and lesser and just not as good as being masculine. And, um, I'm not masculine because I I'm not masculine because I'm not feminine. I'm masculine because I'm masculine, and I don't wanna use that to take away from the feminine does. Am I making sense? Because I thought I if I could be, I would be [00:07:00] because I just think them are great. But I just I do not I do not work in that way, but a lot of a lot of the masculine people I've met, Um I don't want to offend anyone, is the thing, But, um, of quite a few of the more masculine, especially, um, assigned female at birth. People are kind of overcompensating. And they, um a lot of them talk shit [00:07:30] about feminine people or, um, you know, talk about the the bitches and stuff and I I, um part of being Bush for me is making Is is making space for the for for for feminine people to be feminine. And I don't wanna, um II. I feel bad about talking about it, too, because I feel like I'm taking taking it away from feminine people. [00:08:00] Does that make sense? Like I feel by talking about this, I am talking over people whose voices should be heard because people take me more seriously because I'm masculine. And I've noticed that since I started dressing more masculine, acting more masculine and change my name and stuff, and I feel bad about it. I don't know. I'm sorry. I feel like I'm talking myself into a hole. I think that's a really cool thing to be aware of. And it is, [00:08:30] You know, that is like a reality that people go through. But I think it's really cool to talk about that. And, um, you know, and about making Butch a safe word and what you're I think what you're talking about is actually awesome compared to people who are putting down femininity. I know I keep saying this, but a major part of me being butch is the fact that films exist. Like that's I'm I'm not just Butch. I am. I am part of butch slash FM, even though I don't Yeah, [00:09:00] what does family mean to you? The way I see films is that they're taking something that has been taken away from them and made into something that you're not supposed to want to be, and they're taking that back and making it even better than it was before. Does that make sense? [00:09:30] So what's it like living in Nelson as a young, queer trans person? Nobody knows if I'm a boy or a girl. No one knows anywhere else. But, like, um, some a lot of people aren't sure sure how to deal with it. Um, I, I get a lot of street harassment. Kind of, Uh, are you a fat or a dyke? It's OK if you don't. Yeah. Um, [00:10:00] mostly, it's that people don't know how to react to someone who looks like me, whereas in somewhere, like Wellington where I've been living for the past eight months or so, um, they they've seen a fair amount of people who kind of present the same way as me and they they're kind of used to it, or if they're not used to it, they they they just know not to say [00:10:30] anything or be a dick about it. And what was your school like? And your school experience has been I went to an all girls school, which is weird, because after the fact, I realised that quite a few of my friends from that school who went to that school are not girls. Um, but that was that I have a lot of feelings about about the school. Am I allowed to say what school I went to? I went to Nelson college for girls, which, um, has a uniform. And the uniform is [00:11:00] a skirt. Um, I think I got you know, um, year nine. I didn't know what to expect. And I wasn't out until the end of year nine. I mean, people probably knew because I'm I'm I'm pretty obvious, but, um, Nelson College for girls puts a lot of emphasis on the whole young ladies thing. And being you've got to be [00:11:30] academic and you've got to be nicely presented. And that does not mean wearing no makeup and having short hair. That means wearing a small amount of makeup makeup to make you look so called natural, Um, and having your hair neatly pinned back and your glass tucked in nicely And you know all that stuff. And I, um, didn't do that. I didn't feel [00:12:00] like I was really a part of that school. I was in the, um the accelerant class for the first two years, which was full of people who were smarter than me. Because I I learned in a very specific way. Um, so it felt like everyone there, like, I felt like I was the dumbest person in the class. Basically and they were all really pretty girly girls. And the nicest [00:12:30] thing I feel this the nicest thing my tutor teacher ever said to me was Have you lost weight? Which was not a not a very good thing to say to me. It wasn't very nice anyway, but that was a thing. I was going to talk about this this this other thing because when I got to about year 11, um, girls started saying things to me like, Oh, you're so funny. You're so cute. If you were a boy, [00:13:00] I would totally date you, which was not. It was like on the one hand, I was like, Oh, yeah, war fuzzy. But on the other hand, though, um, it kind of felt like, Oh, let's be Let's be nice to the lesbian. On the other hand, we not year 11, is I Probably That was probably when I was, like, starting to come out, um, as being gender queer. Or, you know, not being a girl I was starting to, like, [00:13:30] turn up over my head and try to figure out what I was and girls saying if you were a guy, I would totally date you kind of reminded me that I wasn't a guy. Another thing that I like to talk about is how manly that skirt made me feel. Um, I did a a class at the boys college, and, you know, I have to walk the 10 minutes to the boys college to get there. And, you know, I'd be in the skirt walking onto the boys' [00:14:00] college grounds, and I would feel like twice as masculine as every other person there, which is really weird. I always felt super manly when I was wearing that skirt in a room full of boys. I don't know. I don't know why that was, Um, yeah, I didn't like the college girls. It wasn't. I just don't think I was good at school any in any way. But then after that, I went to for my last year, and I introduced myself as Spencer and everyone kind of went with it, [00:14:30] but then they kind of stopped going with it. But then they went with it again. Because teachers, you know, teachers call me by my birth name. So people kind of figured out that it wasn't that Spencer wasn't my birth name, but, um they're a lot, but, um, it was it's very different to N CJ. Um because obviously it's a coed school, and I was treated [00:15:00] well. The girls treated me more like a boy at NA than they had it. Nelson College for girls, Probably because I wasn't wearing a girl's uniform everywhere. What was it like having alliances at both of those schools while you were there? Uh, first off the girls college, Chris was actually started by me and a couple of my friends, Um, and then one of those friends [00:15:30] left to go to earlier than me and I kind of lay down on the floor and had a bit of a bit of a cry for no good reason. Um, not about the que straight lines, but about other things that were going But I stopped going to the queer straight lines because of that. But anyway, um so so the Nelson Girls Trade alliance, even though I helped [00:16:00] found it was not a big part of my life at that. At that point, the que alliance was probably a bigger deal in my life than the girls one, even though I wasn't going to, um why was that? I was I don't know. I don't I don't know. I think it was probably Q youth that that did it because, you know, um, that started up. Was I? How old was I when started? [00:16:30] Was I 14? It started in 2009. I don't know. Not many people went to the went to, um, the girls alliance when I went and then I stopped going and it kind of went out of my hands. And also, I'm not very I'm not very social person. Like I I'd like to be. But, um, at that point, the Quest alliance, a girl seemed more like a sit [00:17:00] around and chat about our day thing. And I wasn't good at at that. I didn't end up going to nags very much either when I got to. But before, before I got to nags was a bit bigger thing. Probably because of was great, though Keith was was like, a good thing. Would you want me to say, Do you want to talk more about III? I do. But I don't know what to say. How did you get involved? I can't remember. I think you told [00:17:30] you told someone to tell me that I got coming to come along to a committee meeting or something, which is Yeah, Um what does it mean to be part of that group? Does that mean? Well, I was recognised as being queer, whereas at at school I was the lesbian. Um, at school, it was a big deal for me to be queer. And people were like, That's the That's the lesbian. [00:18:00] Oh, my God. But at QU, everyone was queer, and no one really cared what I was. And, um, I went to a that, um Well, Q organised for me to be able to get there. I went to and that was the first time someone ever asked me what pronoun I used. And it was a very nice thing to happen, basically, but, um Oh, wow. Um, [00:18:30] my favourite parts of Q always the parts where we actually talk about issues and important things are sort of sitting around and having a chat because, you know, that might be I'm I'm better at talking about things where I've got something directed directly, You know, that I have to talk about, um and I like educating people too. which is weird. I don't know if it's weird. [00:19:00] If if the people listening to this in the distant future knew me now, they would understand why that's weird, because I'm not a people person. But I do like I like talking about important things. Um, and kind of gave me a space to talk about important things with people who already knew the basis of what I was talking about. What's the difference between being, you know, being in a space where people, you know, kind of [00:19:30] you have something in common with the identity stuff? Or at least they know a little bit about it compared to outside that world? One thing about QQ youth is that no one assumed I was a girl, which is great. Um, no one, really. I mean, at the at the outset, Um, I think you is is special. At least when I was [00:20:00] attending, like every day, and that people were. These are teenagers who are already really well educated about the queer community and not just about, um, gay and lesbian issues, but about trans issues and, um, intersectionality and how queer issues and feminist issues and, um, racism and [00:20:30] um, all all all that jazz and how they they all fit together. And all these are These are really smart kids, like, um, at the time, I thought it was normal, but looking back on it now, we were, like, 14, 15, 16 years old. And we knew all this stuff, which is which is really cool. Um, and you also has this This, um this great library. I know that that sounds really weird to say, but it's like, Oh, my God, it's such a good library. [00:21:00] So many good books. Um, that was a good thing. Yeah, Q is isn't just I feel like an asshole for for talking about about certain types of people like this. But Q isn't just run by by, um, you know, upper middle class white gay men. And but it's it's it's it's it's cool. And it's it's good. And I think [00:21:30] I don't know. I have a feeling they might be different from other quest straight alliances like community quest alliances, not school quest alliances. But, um, yeah, I don't know. So has having a sense of, like, belonging to that group. And, um, like, kind of a community been really important to you. Like I like, I've I've been saying I'm not the most social animal, [00:22:00] but for a lot of my life, I felt like I was, like, walking, walking around with, like, a the big glass box around me. And, like, I was looking out at the people, but they couldn't see me, but with Q you it was like I. I didn't have that anymore. Yeah, I'm not sure how I went. Now, I haven't been back in a in a while, but I'm gonna go on Wednesday and I don't know, I'm scared, like, [00:22:30] because I haven't been back in ages. And it might have changed because I I've been living in well in Wellington for a while. So what, um, do you think are some of the main issues that are facing current trans in New Zealand at the moment, like, um, major issues or like, the average you talk about issues. I know. I think there needs II. I am absolutely 100% of the [00:23:00] idea that there needs to be more trans representation in media and not just binary trends, but, um, every every gender should be represented. Um, the the marriage. Equality thing was good, but I and you know, I'm glad that I can get married, because that's actually a thing that I want to do. But I didn't think it was the thing that was needed the most. At that point, [00:23:30] I think they could have focused on a lot of different, more important things. Um, especially queer youth, the the I'm trying to put this tactfully but bluntly. The the the suicide problem with queer youth and how so many of my friends [00:24:00] have depression and having suicidal thoughts. Um, I don't think people I don't think the heroes really understand that. Um, it's not about having, you know that that that couple on modern family, that's not enough. Uh, Brittany and Santana are not enough. We need people who actually look like us and have our same problems and stuff represented [00:24:30] in the media. And, um, but coming out as as a lesbian was the easiest thing I did after that. Figuring out that I wasn't actually a girl or solely attracted to girls was really hard and kind of having to backtrack a little bit, but also make this huge leap into, um explaining to people [00:25:00] that that I'm a different gender. Um, so the Yeah, that's that's one thing I know. There's so many, so many things. Um, I just want people to be more educated, especially teenagers who might be just figuring out that they're queer. Um, so they don't They realise they don't have to try and fit themselves into [00:25:30] the gay box or the lesbian box. They can be anything. And I want people to know that, um, queerness is fluid. I I'm saying all these things that, like other people, have said to me, but they're true, and I feel like they're cliches, but they're true. I want people to realise that queerness is fluid and you don't have to be one thing for the rest of your life. And if you're if if you've been identifying as a lesbian, you've told everyone you're a lesbian, you've had a girlfriend for the past five years, and one day you're attracted to Harry Styles. I don't [00:26:00] want that to be a bad thing. Like on on chasing Amy When, um, what's her name? I think Alicia is the character's name tells all her lesbian friends. I'm seeing someone and starts using they as the pronoun. They're like, Why? Why are we playing the pronouns game? You're not dating a man, are you? And she's like, Yes, actually, and it's a big deal, and it shouldn't be a big deal. You can still be a lesbian if if if. If that's the term that you identify most with, then be be a lesbian. Just just date a guy for [00:26:30] a while or or not. You know, just you don't have to stay one thing for the rest of your life, and you don't have to change yourself to fit into that thing, even if that thing is what you are. So you don't see your identity reflected in the media at all. The closest thing to my identity that I've seen in the media is Big boo from Orange is the new black Who is the the [00:27:00] butch character? Um, but no, I don't I don't see teenage, um, gender queer characters at all, most mhm so called butch characters. I keep going to make the bunny ears, but I say so called instead. But, um, most so called butch characters in Media are butch lesbians, and they are women, and [00:27:30] they're often treated as a joke, which is horrible because being butch is like the coolest thing. Um, part of it is because I'm not a thin person. And all the all the sexy, masculine lesbians on TV are like Shane from the L word. And, um, what other lesbians are on TV? [00:28:00] Oh, no. Sorry. Um, but most yeah, most British people on TV are definitely women. And, um, most trans people on TV are binary. Um and that's not even very much because I can think of, like, three trans characters in TV off the top of my head. And that is not enough. Yeah, I don't see people like me on TV or anywhere [00:28:30] except for the Internet. Do you think things are changing? Like, what do you think are gonna be the issues in, like 10, 2050 years time? I think things are changing, but I don't think things are changing quickly enough. I'm scared that in and 15 years time there will still only be a small amount of queer people on TV, and they'll be the the, um the kind of queer people that straight people want queer people to be. [00:29:00] If that makes sense. Um, And maybe just to sum up, what's your favourite thing about being a queer trans person in New Zealand? I wasn't expecting that question. Um, I need some. I need some time to think. I don't know. I don't like them that I think that's my favourite thing. New Zealand, New Zealand Films [00:29:30] Ace. Good job, ladies.

IRN: 760
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/south_paki.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004261
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089555
TITLE: Paki - South
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Nelson; Q Youth (Nelson); Rule Foundation; South (series); anxiety; bullying; camp; coming out; confidence; discrimination; gay; gender; gender fluid; gender identity; hui; identity; isolation; promiscuity; queer; school; sexuality; social anxiety; stereotypes; transgender; youth
DATE: 4 October 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Nelson, Nelson, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Paki talks about growing up in Nelson and being gender fluid.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi identifiers as Jenna Floyd at the moment, um, in the past, I he used to identify as as a gay man. Um, pats. I find that Gina fluid disguises me better at this time in my life. Um, kind of doesn't tie me down to one one label. [00:00:30] Um, at first when I first heard about gender fluid, uh, from that it it it was just kind of like a, like, a good idea, you know, something like that that I thought it made sense that someone, someone's life can change. And that's kind of there's no way to describe [00:01:00] the in between time. Wow, that's even possible for someone's sexual identity to to change. And, yeah, I, I think Jana food describes describes it. Well, how would you describe it to someone who doesn't understand? I would say that, um, someone, uh, that describes [00:01:30] a person that it is, uh, either gay or straight. And they were something else. Um, I think that it means that sexuality and gender identity is is a fluid and and changing thing. Um, [00:02:00] that someone doesn't necessarily, uh, a straight man for their entire life that they can change and and two do you, Um, Do you see that identity Much kind of in life? Like, Do you know many people who identify as gender fluid or like, do you have any role models or anything like that? Or is it something that is really [00:02:30] out there? I've I've never met anyone that's identified as gender fluid or not that I know of. Um, I've I've I've seen people change their sexual identity from a lesbian to a straight woman. Uh, and, uh, the the same for men from from straight to gay. Um, [00:03:00] but no II. I haven't seen it. Seen it and anyone else? Yeah. And do you see that that sexuality change from, say, straight to gay? Is that quite different to gender being gender fluid or or are they kind of wrapped up in each other? I think that I think that they, um I think that they're very similar. Um [00:03:30] um, that it's the transition. That's the the hardest, all most confusing part about, um, and I. I think it's can be quite difficult to come to terms with that, um and and that your your life from once you accept that about yourself, it's it's gonna change. I think that's a difficult [00:04:00] thing to come to terms with, Um, but I I think the challenges that face them are can be quite different. Um, I think that, uh, the transition from straight to gay um, it's kind of Oh, it's It's really quite quite common almost to compared to [00:04:30] and, um, people that identify as a male and and and then as a as a female. That transition is, um, his. I know it's it's not as widely documented. Um, [00:05:00] but I think and and for that reason that there's still a lot of, um, confusion around it, Um and, um uh, A lot of fear, I think as as a society to to accept that, uh, for a lot of people, when did you first become aware of your, um, sexuality when [00:05:30] you were identifying as gay? I think it was, Has has always been sort of, uh, a growing thought in the in the back of my mind. Um, and I think that coming out as gay had a big part to play in. And my, uh, [00:06:00] and my identifying I did find myself Really, Um, but I found that once I accepted that I was interested in men that, um once I stepped it down and myself, uh, it sort of, um [00:06:30] and have me to think about other questions and other questions that I have about myself. How old were you when that started to happen? I was. It's almost difficult to say since it is kind of a, uh, a a gradual Think, Um, maybe a year ago [00:07:00] or or even sooner, But I didn't wake up and feel like this. Yeah, sure. Have you been very open about it? Like, what kind of reactions have you got from people? I haven't really been terribly open about it. It's a topic that I often try to avoid in conversations. [00:07:30] Um, but I find that people don't often raise it. Um, but I think a lot of people sort of guess about me just by taking one. Look, um, I look quite androgynous. Um, yeah. So, II, I don't think I really [00:08:00] need to bring it up much and that people generally just take it at face value for whatever it is. And when did you, um, come out as as a gay male like, um, what was that like when you were a bit younger. That was, um, quite a liberating experience. Um, [00:08:30] I found that a lot of the bullying that I had I had received before I came out. I just just stopped once it happened. Uh, and I became a lot more confident in myself. Um, and I and I just didn't have, like, this burden on my shoulders anymore, like that. And that kind [00:09:00] of constant nagging thought that you you have when you're when you're still in the closet, but but want to come out? It's almost all you can think about. What was school like for you being Thank you. Um, before I came out around, uh, I came out when I was about 16. Um, it was pretty difficult, because [00:09:30] I, um I suppose I've always been quite camp in my mannerisms. And, um, right from a young age, I think, and, uh, people, people saw that and saw it. Something different from the Norman er and just picked on me because of that. Um and [00:10:00] yeah, just quite, um, quite quickly came to the conclusion that I was gay. Yeah, Even before I really identified as that myself and yeah, it was pretty tormented, I think. At school. Yeah, it wasn't was a lot of fun. Did you find the staff and staff, [00:10:30] um, supportive to They can intervene with anything. No, no, I didn't, Uh, and kind of the bullying I I Well, yeah, no, it did happen during class, times and things, but I found that a lot of teachers and adults just ignored it. Um, no I. I don't remember getting any intervention from [00:11:00] from a teacher or Yeah, any support from him? Yeah, it was kind of sad. How did you cope with that bullying and kind of move past things. I really just came out, I think was the solution to everything turned out in the end. Um, yeah, Once I came out, I I couldn't [00:11:30] really, you know, And people couldn't really yell faet at me from the from the hallway because, I mean, I was so yeah, after that, and I just kind of owned it. And, um, the bullying just stopped and yeah, I just continued living as a gay man. Have you had any, um, [00:12:00] other challenges that you face because of your kind of queer identity? Maybe just probably just kind of social challenges. Um, anxiety around social situations is, um, a pretty constant thing. Um, yeah, just [00:12:30] kind of walking into a room and not not knowing if the people in the room will accept me for for who I am or be angry because of it. Or, you know, III I don't really have much proof to for for this anxiety, I'm not often approached and, uh, and abused [00:13:00] or anything. Um, but the the fair is is still there. Um, and I think that's something that I'm working through now. Have you found, um, any spaces that have? Um yeah, but you haven't had to feel that anxious, and you have been able to just kind of be who you are. Um, [00:13:30] yeah, when I around the around the time I came out, um, I was had a lot of support from Kiev, and, um, I I went to their meetings every week, and and I was Yeah, I felt completely safe and and comfortable to just be myself and and [00:14:00] enjoy that. Yeah, and the as well, that, um, that you had And, um, once I I attended and other places, um, with the same where I could just be myself. Um, and yeah, not not. Have to worry or about, [00:14:30] you know, the the about others accepting me because I just knew that they were dead. Yeah. Can you tell me a bit more about, um what the that you went to were like, um, they were usually over a weekend. Um, and [00:15:00] during the, um, they were often, uh, different workshops about all all different kinds of stuff about coming out. Um, and being gay and, uh, spirituality And, um, everything in between where [00:15:30] people could just talk about their experience and, um, in a safe place. And I think it, uh, I think it made the whole experience, uh, quite moving. And, um, yeah, quite a personal experience for everyone. Yeah, they were the the highlights. I think [00:16:00] there's my involvement in Q A What do you think those spaces gives to people? Why is it so important that they I think it's I think it's important because I think it's just important to show people what it's like to to just be yourself and and [00:16:30] how much fun that life can be. And if the if the feelings and and like the general acceptance that that I always ate these Hoy was an everyday life. We it it would would make for such a beautiful world. [00:17:00] And II I think a lot of problems in in society in general would Would would stop. What is it like being a que young person living in Nelson? Um, do you think it's different here than it would be other parts of the country? Yeah. Um, since Nelson is quite small, um, [00:17:30] it's presents its own challenges, I guess. And since the there isn't a very big gay community in Nelson, I mean, yeah, it's just it's just difficult because, yeah, I mean, walking down the street, you can't see anyone. That's that's obviously different, you know? Um, [00:18:00] yeah, I know it can make it seem quite isolating. Do you get, um, reactions from people on the street or people you make because of being visibly quick? Yeah. Um I mean, I think a lot of other [00:18:30] people, um I mean, a lot of people would kind of overlook me sometimes. Maybe it's just being a woman. Um, but I find that when I had first met someone, um that during our, you know, conversation to get to know each other. Uh, [00:19:00] I, I just kind of see a question, You know, in their eyes that that they are, like, holding back, um, and and and it's it generally comes out when they're drunk. And when I when I meet drug people for the first time, they'll just come out and say, Are you a boy or a girl? And I I am always firstly amused at at the bluntness of it, but [00:19:30] I've always taking a second to reply. Often, I would just say that I'm a boy, but not because I look like one. Just because they have the genitals of fun [00:20:00] and then often, again, with drunk people, the next question would be Do I want to be a girl? But I don't know if if I do, I don't know if because they the first thing that comes to mind is having a sex change. And and I think at least not now in my life that I would be [00:20:30] strong enough to go through that, Um but I mean, do I wish that I was born a girl? Probably. Yeah, I would. But does that mean that I should go through the process of changing my body. Now that I'm that I wasn't [00:21:00] born a girl to to change and to one artificially, you know, Would it be the same? Or but I still think of myself. Yes, something different. Do you think, or kind of see around you that there are different, um, different ways? Because I guess, [00:21:30] like, um, in the in the past, we've been taught the only way to kind of change your gender is to, you know, it's like this really kind of black and white way where you change your sex. Um, change your body. Take hormones, et cetera. Do you see around you that there are different ways now to be, um, trends or what? Yeah. What do you know about that? Um no. II. I can't say that. I really have looked into [00:22:00] it a whole lot. Um, and I think a lot of that stuff surrounding that is is isn't widely known. You know something? You have to research and and find out. Um, but no. As far as my education on the subject goes, I I can't say I've had much Yeah, I think [00:22:30] at the moment I'm just coming to terms with what I am. No. Um, yeah, And who that is. Do you know where you did, Um, learn what you do know about being queer in terms, I suppose, Um well, I know I've just learned from [00:23:00] experience in a lot of ways. Um, yeah, I can't I can't say that There's much to know about being gay, and, you know, unless you just love it yourself, if that's your life. But I suppose the same can be said about being transgender. [00:23:30] Yeah. Do you think the media has had much influence on you at all? Well, I mean, like like everyone I I think it has. Um I can't say I identify you know, holy with any any [00:24:00] person I've seen in in the media. Um, but then again, I'm sure I did find and in some ways, with my son. Um, are there kind of certain characters or identities or like, stereotypes that you see a lot of of queer people in the middle? Um, of queer people? Probably the most common would be, [00:24:30] um, a promiscuous gay man has often the depiction of of gay men. Yeah, um, and the same actually about lesbians, is that Yeah, is someone. It's just interested in sex. But I suppose it's just gonna add to the plot [00:25:00] of any story. Really? Do you say, um, any identities lack in any kind of storylines? Um, I think, um, that transgender people are barely at all represented in the media and, you know, at least in anything I've seen. Yeah. So I think that's [00:25:30] that. Only kind of that only feeds the the confusion around that. Um, yeah, what do you think are some of the, um, main challenges facing young people in New Zealand at the moment? Um, I think just discrimination. That's the biggest challenge anyone [00:26:00] can face coming out. Um, and it's it's a big challenge. And, um, I can't say that I have the answer to it, you know, it's It's my challenge at the moment, and it's a challenge that I might have to live [00:26:30] with. How do you feel about that? Um, yeah, I. I suppose it's It's a bit of a morbid, I guess. It's pretty sad thought, but I, I think it makes makes for stronger people. You know, if there's more people out there questioning who you are, uh, that just means that You have to be more certain than yourself [00:27:00] about that about what kind of person you are. Um, but then I think a part of it just has, um that yes, it's important to know who you are, but then, um, you shouldn't let the discrimination in society define that [00:27:30] and have their questions, uh, become your own. In a way. Do you think things are changing? Where do you see, um, what do you see in New Zealand in, like, 10, 2050 years? Like, what do you think will be the issues, then? Yeah. Uh, yeah, it's definitely changing. Um, [00:28:00] there's OK, there's there's growing acceptance. Um, about, uh um, queer people in general. Um, we I. I see New Zealand. And in 50 years, um, I think it'll be something [00:28:30] completely different from from today. I think we would barely recognise ourselves. Um, yeah, and I think if we follow this path that we're on now that it'll be a lot less of a challenge for right, um, and for people to to come [00:29:00] out as as gay or lesbian and and for people to identify as a woman when they were born a man, I think I hope that there will be more acceptance. Maybe you just finish up. Um, what's your favourite thing about being a young person in New Zealand? [00:29:30] Um um, my favourite thing would be being an alternative young, queer person in New Zealand. Um, I enjoy being different, and I think that's what makes it special.

IRN: 759
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/south_kitty.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004260
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089554
TITLE: Kitty - South
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Modern Family (tv); Nelson; Nelson Masked Parade; Q Youth (Nelson); Rule Foundation; South (series); Tabby Besley; activism; adoption; butch; coming out; community; dyke; education; facebook. com; femme; history; hui; identity; internet; marriage; marriage equality; media; peer support; politics; queer straight alliance (QSA); religion; representation; school; sex education; sexuality; social media; sport; stereotypes; support; transgender; tumblr. com; youth
DATE: 3 October 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Nelson, Nelson, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Kitty talks about being a self-identified dyke and activism around marriage equality.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I like to be slightly different and call myself a self identified dyke. So I know that that sometimes can be a negative word to use. But I like to claim it as my own, so that mainly identifies as lesbian. But also, you know, includes outliers because you never know do people. Um what reactions do you get to saying that to people? Um, most people are just like, Oh, yeah, OK, and couldn't really, like, just kind of write me off [00:00:30] a little bit, which isn't great. And then other people are like, Oh, you're that way inclined. Um, so when a kind of a mixture in between the two, I guess Do you think people will have a hard time trying to understand what that means? Or do they make like, assumptions about your identity? I think it is a little bit difficult to understand. I do have to explain it quite a lot. Um, and sometimes I have to explain it to myself, even but as so they kind of make assumptions to not assume, I guess [00:01:00] which is actually kind of good. So, yeah, they just kind of put me as a big question mark which I don't mind. Yeah, um, when did you first start becoming kind of aware of your sexual orientation? Um, well, I never really was opposed to the idea aside from when I was really small and couldn't understand it, but kind of when I was about 14 years old, I started to get romantic feelings for one of my friends and started questioning it all and everything, and then kind [00:01:30] of went from there and became this huge queer activist. So, um, did you have to come out to people? Yeah, I did. Yeah. And I mean, I still have to. You always have to. Um but I don't really mind it, just as long as they don't react badly. What kind of reactions have you had? Um, Well, mostly good. I think I'm just personally, I'm a very out there person. So [00:02:00] they're already, like, if they're gonna be in, if they're going to be intimidated by me, they already have been, um or sometimes I get negative ones. Um, but I usually don't continue that association to be honest, so I have pretty good relationships in regards to it. Do you think people will always have to come out? Yeah, always. It's just a continual cycle. I mean, at my high school, everyone was completely aware because I was very obvious about it. I was leading the QS [00:02:30] a so that was, you know, kind of in neon letters. But then now that I've got a full time job, um, I've, uh one of my coworkers is a lesbian, and she's quite quite obvious about it because she's very butch and she's a lovely person, and I really enjoy her company. But then we were talking about relationships the other day, and it just kind of got written off as, oh, so who's your boyfriend kind of thing. And I didn't get the opportunity [00:03:00] to kind of add that in. And they still haven't had the opportunity to be like, Hey, I actually would prefer the company of girls and, um and so it's just it's still assumed. And yeah, do you think that's to do with the way you like appear? And I don't know if you identify with feeling at all. Yeah, it was absolutely to do with how I appear because I'm quite feminine. I will take a skirt over the pants. Even though I still like pants. Um, so, you know, I've got Well, it's not very long anymore, but I've got long hair that I love to do up and do my makeup every day, [00:03:30] and so that kind of puts me in the oh, she likes boys category, which I think is rubbish. How do you feel about that? Especially when you get that from the other people in the quick community. Um well, in the queer community isn't so terrible because they're quite aware that not everyone is butch, but then sometimes, and I'm not saying this is a group, but Butch and Kline people would just assume that which, um, you know, you think they'd be a bit more open minded, but it's also kind of nice [00:04:00] to when confronted with it, I'll be like, Hey, I actually no. And then they'll be taking it back, and they're like, Oh, I wouldn't have picked that. I was like, Well, that's your fault, not mine. How have you found it? Um, at your school to be at my school. It was actually pretty good. It does have its rough moments, but I think that's just in the junior years to be honest because you still get juniors who, you know, use gay as a bad word and all the rest of it. So we're still working on that. But then when you get on, [00:04:30] um, in the years and everyone's kind of older, they've either made their peace with it or they leave you alone, which is good. I mean it. It'd be good if they just didn't care at all. But they still they still are leaving you alone. So, yeah. Um, what impact do you think having a queer alliance is makes on the school or your experience? Personally, I reckon An absolutely huge one. You know, you look at the high schools that don't have them, and it's just there is absolutely no support there for [00:05:00] the queer kids, which is so horrible. So every single day, they just don't have anyone supporting them. But then, for example, the high school I went to and we've got a big group that's kind of at the forefront of Nelson's Q SAS. It's been fantastic because we all stand up for each other and even people who aren't in the group. If someone says, Oh my gosh, that's so gay. Then someone will turn around. And you can't say that we have a QS a. And you know, that doesn't happen every time, but it still does happen. So even that tiny, tiny influence right there is still enough to really change something. So it does [00:05:30] wonders. What's it, um, like in your health classes at your school? Where did the classes talk about sexual orientation and gender identity at all? I didn't find that they did at all. Now, um, back in my year nine when it was brought up, I wasn't exploring that option. So it just got completely washed over by everyone, really including myself. But then in year 10, I, um [00:06:00] kind of like, questioned why there wasn't more, because even though I was only questioning to begin with, I was completely aware of it a lot more than I was. And I was like, Hey, why is it only gay, lesbian bi? And how come they are one page on this 40 page booklet that has only got the titles and no information? And then when I did Year 11 health, I ended up myself getting up in class and speaking for an entire period on the on the different, [00:06:30] um, sexualities and just kind of a bit of an education that was not provided and wouldn't have happened from the teacher if I wasn't there. And the teacher said, Hey, that was really good. No other classes have had even five minutes on the subject, and we got a whole period. That was cool. Um, but there was also no continuation of that. Like she didn't say, Oh, I'll get you a camera and all the other ones or or we can do this next year. It was kind of like, Oh, that's nice for them, but yeah, so it seems like everything's really student led like, [00:07:00] well, only because I volunteered and said, Hey, can we talk about this more? And the teacher said, I don't have anything to talk about that I don't know what to say and I was like, Well, I'll do it, Um, but I really shouldn't have had to do that like, I mean, I'm quite educated in it, so I mean, it's one thing that the teacher isn't educated and can't pass on the information, but it shouldn't be the student's responsibility. Um, is having a sense of belonging and being part of the queer community important to you? Absolutely. [00:07:30] Yes. It's just brilliant to be a part of it because, um, with any community at all, when even when you're starting to get into it, you can feel quite on the outside of it. So when you're on the outside wishing to be a part of it, and then when you are a part of it, it's such a huge change, and it just gives you this great feeling and you have new friends, and you always have somewhere to go back to. So, like if you get other commitments or aren't around for a while, you can, you know, it's not like they'll, [00:08:00] um, not take you back so you can always just show up years later and be like, Oh, I used to come here all the time. I'm gonna do that again and go like, just jump right back where you were before, which is great. How are you part of the quick community At the moment, I haven't got that large amount of involvement involvement because I'm not at high school anymore, but I still like to come to Q for local QS A whenever I can, and unfortunately my work does conflict with it, so it is quite a minimal involvement at the moment. But whenever there's [00:08:30] different events going on, I always do my best to go to those like the that just happened. And I've had quite a large involvement in the past, being a previous QS a leader. So I like to think a big one. How did you get involved in the group? I got involved through a friend who was a member of my high school's QS. A. He was just a personal friend like he wasn't even a queer related friend, and he was really, really passionate about this group, and so I started [00:09:00] going just to spend time with him. But then when I was questioning my own sexuality, it was a really good place to go. And then I made my own friends through there and just kind of never looked back because they're such amazing people. And there's such a comfortableness and, um, kind of what's the word like, really on? There's like an honesty amongst that kind of folk because they are being honest for possibly the first time in their lives [00:09:30] amongst other people. And you know, it's different when you're you can be hanging out and having a good time with friends, but you're still kind of hiding stuff that you don't want to be judged on. So it's a judgement free place, which is just brilliant. How is, um, being part of Q and the QS A at your school, um, changed how you feel about your sexuality or how you, um, that maybe, well, it's made me feel like it's 100% OK, because [00:10:00] I mean, obviously it is OK, but when you're first questioning it, it's it still is. It's different. You know, being gay or being lesbian or anything else is different. And, um, you know, now I look at it as not different, only different in the way that blue and green are different. If that makes sense, not as in one's a colour and one's a fruit I don't know. So it's really just like this whole acceptance instead [00:10:30] of being conflicted over it, because you also can get some complexions and stuff. But just letting yourself know, or everyone else letting yourself know that you're normal and just because you're different doesn't make you normal. Have you had, um, some, like highlights or, um, really cool experiences being part of those groups that you'd like to look at? Um, some highlights. Probably the events that we do. They're quite cool, like it's great to just come [00:11:00] any week, especially when you're having a bad week and for them to cheer you up completely. But the events we do are really awesome. Like the will go up to Wellington and are just in a room with about 100 queer kids, or I'm not sure how many there is. But that's, um and they're all we're all. We all have something in common, which is fantastic because, you know, when you're at school, you're not guaranteed to have something in common with everyone in the class. And so it's just choosing to be there is fantastic. And [00:11:30] then things like the mass parade where we get to dress up in rainbows and walk down the main street and be together, but in a massive crowd and not terrified at all, it's also brilliant. What impact do you think the que who, um, have on a community and young people have a team or for you. I think it's great because it sets up a network and it also helps out kids who don't have a massive group to go to like I do, because with me, I've always had, you [00:12:00] know, at least 10 queer kids I could call on at one time, you know, and they change. Some of them move away or do different things, and that's fine. But then with you get kids who live up in Auckland and they're the only quick in their high school or the only out one or and they want to set up a QS a. But they don't have anyone else and then they get to come and meet. You know the rest of us and see Hey, there's so many more of us and we we do stay in contact and now you know, when I go to Wellington, I see all of them go down to Christchurch. [00:12:30] Same thing. We even involve each other a little bit in different QS a running things like I've helped plan things down in Christchurch and Dunedin and the rest of them, which is just great because it's a resource for them as Well, you know, when they don't have someone else to help them out and they need that help can help them. How do you feel about queer and trends representation in the media? Um, well, it's not exactly great, is it? I mean, there is. It's It's not as [00:13:00] tippy toed around anymore as it was, which is fantastic, I reckon. The past few years it's stopped tippy toed around, but it's still they still don't enjoy discussing it, if you know what I mean. So when you see something on the news and there's been great publicity for the past couple of years with the whole marriage equality bill going through, and that was brilliant. But, um, something that actually really struck me when that was going through was watching the Parliament debate it and [00:13:30] everything from being in debates that sure they were high school and not Parliament. But being in debates at high school, where it's like, Oh, should we give more rights to um, um, you know, other identifying people? Or is homosexuality a sin and sometimes how blunt they can be? Um, it's usually you get. You get positive responses from, um, people like me but But you also get the really negative ones. So when I saw Parliament and I know [00:14:00] there's quite a few people who were quite against it, you know, for religious reasons or whatever reasons, I was expecting a lot of negativity and being like, Oh, no, this is a sin And they kind of they did. They did get toward it in the final debate, but for the first two debates, it they just completely did not step on homosexuality at all. Like they just said, Hey, we don't want this And hey, marriage this and religion that. But they didn't actually bag on homosexuality, which [00:14:30] I wasn't even expecting that. So for that to actually happen was fantastic. And, you know, you look at it and it's like, Well, I shouldn't have even been expecting them to, but I was, and they didn't. So do you think, What do you think that shows? I think it shows that, um, we're just we always have to put up with that. If I was expecting it, that's kind of the status quo, A little bit, which isn't so brilliant. But then also for it not to happen shows that it doesn't the status [00:15:00] quo doesn't have to stay the same. Because a couple of years back when they were debating the same issue, it would have very easily been like, Oh, no, that's a sin. And now they don't like, even if they still believe it, they won't be that public about it because they, you know, realise that it's not OK to say that, because it's not. Were you involved in any kind of activism around marriage? Equality Quite a bit. Yeah. Um, I me and my fellow, um, QS, a leader at the time, anyway, [00:15:30] did quite a few petitions because we got sent some down from people in Wellington to just show people support for it. And so we petitioned the entire of Nelson for quite a while and would just wander around town getting all the signatures we could. And we supported the lush campaign, um, the kiss and tell event and their petitions. And we also set up a day at our high school getting all the signatures we could, which we had to get the school endorsement for that. And it was just really cool to see. I mean, there was some [00:16:00] negativity, but we actually got quite a lot like more signatures than we were expecting. So it was just really fun. Because even though you did get bad reactions, sometimes you also got to see the hundreds and hundreds of positive reactions, and that really lifted your spirit. So I'm so glad I did that. Did you make a submission? I did make a submission. Unfortunately, not a very good one. Just from other different reasons. But we also all sent in photographs of us with marriage, [00:16:30] um, equality signs saying I support marriage equality because I believe that every new Zealander deserves to be with the person they love and other various things. Um, we all sent those in together, which was really cool to do a group one. so the submissions really cool, but yeah, I didn't actually do that kind of one. I'm not very good at writing. Um, marriage and adoptions are they, like, issues that are quite important to you. Like, are they things you're interested in personally? Personally, Um, well, personally, I don't [00:17:00] hold much to marriage, but that's just personal experience. But for me, that's not the issue at all. I don't feel like someone was asking me, Do you want to marry a chick? It was like Good chicks have the right to marry each other and they absolutely should. So it's not, You know, it's not saying that every single, you know, now it's, um Homosexuals even are sinning even more for not being married before sex or whatever the hell they want to say. But, um, it's that they should be able to have the right to Anyone who wants [00:17:30] to is someone who does want to be traditional and get married and have a family that should absolutely be their right because you can't say, you know, it's you can't have it for some citizens and they're not others on for something like sexuality. I think that's just plain stupid. What other issues, Um, now that we've had that bill passed, do you think are really important for queer people in New Zealand today? Particularly maybe young people? I think education will be one, because when you don't teach about [00:18:00] something, it's like you're pretending that it isn't there. So definitely education, um, at high school level or whichever level would be really important and just, um maybe more awareness But to be honest, marriage was kind of a huge one. So, yeah, at the end of that, we were kind of like, OK, so what's the next thing we fight for? And that was kind of the big issue for all these years. But, [00:18:30] I mean, there always is something because it used to be totally illegal. So, um, what issues do you think there might be in the future? Like in 10, 2050 years? Time like, will there be issues? Uh, hopefully not. I understand. It does take quite a while for change, so we can expect that, um, all these issues will go away in the next 20 years. 50 maybe. I don't really know. Like, it is great to see so many things changing, I think with everything changing all over the world with, um, Doma and America and [00:19:00] all the other different countries. But then again, you've got places like Russia, so that's kind of going in the exact opposite direction. And I know we're just focusing on New Zealand, but all the different international issues do really feed into each other, so it'd be good to see more of, um, you know, states in America getting it passed and less of Russia. Do you know much about, um, queer history in New Zealand or internationally? Uh, I've done [00:19:30] a bit of research. I'm sure there's so much I don't know. But then I also think I know way more than most people because most people wouldn't have had the opportunity to look into it. Um, this year I was doing social studies with my class, and we actually decided to focus on the social issue of marriage equality, which was so fantastic because it didn't get passed over, which was just amazing. Um And so we did lots of research, and I found out, like, all the different times that it's tried to go to Parliament with different things [00:20:00] and some stuff about, like, Stonewall and the rest of it, which I didn't know about till last year. But that's such a huge thing. And now it pops up all the time on my radar. I'm like, Ah, but before that, I would have just completely fallen off of it, So, yes, I know a bit, but also no, not really. Should be teaching it in schools. Yeah. Yeah. Um how do you see things like Facebook and Tumblr and social Media playing into, um, our community and the way we connect with each other. [00:20:30] Um, well, Facebook is really good for one on one connection, and that's usually how I network with people that I've met at that are all over New Zealand. So I think that's really good for one on one connection. So I think it's actually a really good asset. And then Tumblr, I'm I'm not even sure there are straight people on Tumbler. To be honest, there's it's a it's a great It's a really, really inclusive, just absolute Yay! We're gay. Explain a bit more about what Tumbler is. OK, [00:21:00] yeah. Um, well, it's a social network that just I'm not sure if I can explain it because it's so so broad. Um, it's just people all over the world. Kind of enjoying the same things is probably the only way I could describe it. And whether or not that's just pictures of hot chicks or pictures from doctor who or funny puns, whatever it is that floats your boat, there is something [00:21:30] out there for everyone. And then you start to kind of, um kind of network with those people as well. So if you look at all the people that I follow and who follow me, we're all kind of the same genre of blog. And I'd say at least 50% of us are getting at minimum. So the fact that it's more likely to be with the the fact that it's more likely to be in the majority the minority is really fantastic. So, yeah, [00:22:00] what do you think about how? Yeah, how things like Tumbler have become such a big kind of thing for queer young people. Um, especially when things like that really didn't exist, even like a few years ago. I think it's good, because just anyone can say, Hey, this is what I think And then other people will have the confidence to back them up. And it's not even like Facebook, where you've specifically got your face to it and your profile and all the people you know seeing it. Tumblr [00:22:30] does have that, but it also can completely not. You don't have to put your name. You don't have to put a picture. You can just be some person, and it's like you never want to try to assume anything about people like you'll see a post from someone I'm like, Oh, OK, they're probably female and that's not like That's only if you want to think like that. But then it could be the exact opposite. And there's you really should never, ever make assumptions because it's usually the exact opposite. And it's just great because when someone posts something that says, Hey, it's really shit when people use that is so gay as an insult And then someone will be like, Yeah, I agree with [00:23:00] that And it will kind of snowball from there as opposed to one person, kind of standing up in the crowd like you would have in real life or even on Facebook, because most people are like, I'm not standing up with him. Then there's just the two of us standing up, but it's really different on places like Tumblr. It's really awesome. Um, what do you think about the way queer and Trans are represented in things like TV shows or films? Um uh, they're all I [00:23:30] don't they're not. They're usually not incredibly realistic, but sometimes they are, I think, to be honest, the queer characters are usually a bit of a gimmick, which sometimes that's good. Like, I suppose, if my life was a TV show, I would be a gimmick. But it's also would be nice to see something a bit more serious. There is also serious things out there. See, it's anything I'm going to say there will actually be out there. Anything I'm gonna ask for there will be there. But it's not, um, [00:24:00] as popular or circulated as other things. So maybe not. The issue isn't creating more. Maybe it's circulating what is created. So, yeah, Are there any, like, particular characters or, um, things that you watch that you can relate to or you think you've done really badly? Um, well, I mean, I've got my personal favourites, like from Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Willow and Tara, of course, um, classics like that. And, um, I really love, um, modern [00:24:30] family. The gay couple on there. I don't watch that show very much, so I'm not even sure of their names, but I see them pop up all the time to short videos, and I think they're the most hilarious things. Um, and just ones like that. But I I there's always. There's always the two sides of the argument when people want a character who's not kind of shoved under the rug with their sexuality. And then there's people who want them to be a normal character that don't have it as, Hey, this is my main identifier so you could have both sides of the argument. [00:25:00] But when you get characters like Dumbledore, I really feel like that was swept under the rug far too much. And it was kind of meta knowledge about him being gay because it really wasn't touched on. Like I'm actually, I asked people to hint out, Point out the hints and I can't see it. So, um, but then it's a widely known fact that Dumbledore was gay and go for Dumbledore, but it just didn't show up in the movies. So, But then again, no one even questioned it for a second whether he was gay, because [00:25:30] everyone says he's gay. But under the rock. So do you think there's lots of, um, stereotypes that get kind of repeated and yeah, and things like TV, um of queer character? Yeah, yeah, and that's where you get the gimmick coming in. There's definitely the, um, the gay best friend is quite a common one. Super flamboyant. Um, super butch chicks. Uh, there's always like that girl who's super. [00:26:00] Um, what's the word? Can't think of the word, but it's, like, quite feminine and always, like, draws the girls in And then, just like, surprised I'm actually a lesbian or something, which, Yeah, I actually enjoy that one the most. But like I've seen it a lot. But then it's also kind of good that you see them several times, I guess. But variety, because there's so many more stereotypes than that, I guess, like if we're going to call them steroids, maybe archetypes, I'm not sure whatever word do you see any kind of identities or parts of our [00:26:30] queer community missing from what's in the we can get? I definitely reckon more, Um, Trans people need to be shown because I can't claim to be an expert on trans people myself, but like you see quite a lot of, um and tell me if I'm using the wrong terms, but for anything but like transsexual people who have had, like, surgery and all the rest of it, and like that's great. But then you don't see people who just want to identify a different gender without, you know, changing all the [00:27:00] rest of it. And I think it's absolutely up to the person whether they want to do that or not. But usually, if you see someone who's switched genders, it's like completely switched instead of an in between. So I think there needs to be way more in between than just Oh, my gosh, I used to be a man, But then I decided I wanted boobs. Um, yeah, yeah, I think the media has a long way to go. Yeah, yeah, so that's definitely something we could agree on. Are you [00:27:30] part of any, um, groups outside of the queer community, like or are you part of, like, religious communities or sports groups or anything like that? Not really. No, I used to be, um, but nothing's really stuck. And that's why I really like youth is because it's always stuck. I used to be religious, but then when my sexuality changed, they weren't really tolerant anymore, which sucked. But to be honest, youth is way better than they were, um, and then other things. They've been good at times, like different sports groups [00:28:00] or even debating club. They've been really fun at the time, but Keith has always been like a steady one that I can come back to as to I'm not always in the mood to argue or play sports. Why do you think that is not the why are you not always in the mood to argue or play sports? But why is there this one group of community that you've stuck with? Do you think, Um, because it's so fluid itself? I reckon so. It's it's it's consummate fluid, so it because [00:28:30] it accepts everyone. You don't have to be a certain type of person, like with debating. You have to be good at speaking and able to think quickly and an actual enjoyment for it just as an example. And I mean, you can be part of the group if you're not those things as well, or you can not be part of the group if you're those things, and I guess the same for you. If you don't have to be part of the group, if you're gay and you don't have to be gay part of the group, but it it does it kind of There's no box that we don't tick? [00:29:00] I guess so. It's just or And if if you create a new box, Q does it at the same time? Cool. Um, what are your kind of plans? Dreams. Hopes for the future. Like, Do you want to move out of Nelson? What kind of things do you want to, like, study or do for a job? So yeah. Well, as far as the future goes, I'll probably be here for the next year. But then I plan on actually moving over to Ireland just because it's so foreign and different. And I kind of don't want to go to any place that I know because [00:29:30] I know it. So that's my plan. Um, but I haven't really decided much of it, to be honest, aside from just so not hold back at any point, I reckon. And that's definitely something that I've gotten from Q youth is that I've always, um, you know, call it planning or whatever else. But I've always like had I've been holding back something for the right time or for the right situation. But then, with Q, it's [00:30:00] like, Well, you could just not hold that back and enjoy everything, I guess, um and it's actually been really, really fantastic. So, yeah, I plan on just going to Ireland and doing whatever it takes me as opposed to thinking Oh, no, I need to go. I need to stay in New Zealand, and I need to be doing this, Um, maybe to finish up. What's your favourite thing about being a queen person in New Zealand? All of the rainbows. It's like I mean, [00:30:30] I've always been a fan of rainbows anyway, because I'm quite, um, bright colours and girls and all the rest of it. But now, when I wear lots of rainbows, everyone's like, Oh, yeah, it's it's because she's a lesbian and I really love it. I'm like, Yep, this is me wearing about 50 different rainbow things at the moment. And it's just great because, yeah, cool. I have finished that off.

IRN: 758
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/south_alicia.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004259
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089553
TITLE: Alicia - South
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Christchurch; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Mormonism; Nayland Alliance of Gays and Straights (NAGS); Nelson; Q Youth (Nelson); Rule Foundation; South (series); Tabby Besley; biphobia; bisexual; bullying; children; church; coming out; community; counselling; difference; faith; family; friends; history; homophobia; hui; identity; internet; love; marriage equality; media; queer straight alliance (QSA); relationships; religion; representation; sexuality; social media; stereotypes; youth
DATE: 2 October 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Nelson, Nelson, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alicia talks about growing up and fluid bisexuality.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Can you tell me about how you describe your identity? Uh, fluid. Bisexual? What does that mean to you? Just that at different times I can be attracted to males or females, but I'm never actually attracted to them at the same time. So it just changes. Do you think that's a hard thing to like? Explain to people? Yes, very much so. It's hard because then you're trying to explain they have the term [00:00:30] bisexual, but they don't get that. There's different types. They just expect it to be the one. Um, can you tell me a bit more about what you mean by that one type of? Just that they expect that bisexual just means that you're attracted to both and they from what I've got a lot, is they think it's at the same time. So it's just generalisation. Have you found a lot of stereotypes or like, kind of bio? I've heard [00:01:00] the usual kind of stuff, like, um, that it doesn't exist by sexuality. Just if I choose that, um, the whole then you've got the whole It was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. I've heard that a lot throughout the churches that I've been to and then, um, like, it's not what God wants. So, yeah, the different places [00:01:30] you end up with different kind of stuff. Some churches have lived because they've made me, like, want to choose or and that's kind of difficult because, like, it's they were both big parts of my life. So I just choose both because I don't see what I have to choose. Did you have to, um, come out to people in your life? Do you still have to? [00:02:00] Yeah. And most of my friends know I recently told my father's family that went over Great. They were completely fine with it. So it was relatively all right, coming out to my family. I came out to my friends. I've lost some, but that's OK. When did you come up? Uh, over the last year. I came over. I tried [00:02:30] coming out when I was 16, but none of my family would believe me. So I just kind of went back in the closet for a few more years. So yeah, um, what was that like? Kind of, you know, like being in the closet like for so long. And I think it's just It's horrible. It's just, like kind of lying to yourself at the same time because, like, you're trying to be someone. But at the same time, you're trying to fit into [00:03:00] anyone else's idea of who you should be, so you can't. It's just very suffocating. Do you think the kind of, um, churches and stuff played into that? Your family? Yeah, the churches did. I've left quite a few because of it. Um, because the last one I went to before the one I'm going to, which is Z now was a huge one because it was the Mormon Church. And [00:03:30] they told me that, um, the more the missionary told me that she was gay, too. But she's not gay any longer. And I don't think you can stop being something. I just think you can lie to yourself enough that you start to believe it. So, um, she said, what's more important, God or who you are, pretty much who you are being by. And I just left because I don't want I'm not gonna stick around [00:04:00] where I'm not wanted. Did you were you at school when you started to kind of become aware that you were bisexual. Well, something I figured out something was out when I was 14, but I put it down to I sing. I hung out with guys a lot, so I thought I was just singing girls is how my friends saw them. But, um, I figured out I came across the term bisexual when I was 16, so it all kind of started [00:04:30] a lot more into place. But I'm still trying to figure it out. All out. At that point. Was your school like a place where people were coming out or did it have any, like, support in place for people who were clear? Um, I went to Hagley. Um, there was no QS a that I was aware of when I was there, so Yeah, Although I found out since then, lots of people actually had a suspicion. I was And, [00:05:00] um, I didn't know. So I can't have been I must have been a bit obvious about it, so Yeah. So, Haley in Christchurch. So do you think, um, the Christchurch and Nelson communities are quite different places to be? I think it's just not. When I was at Hagley, it was just one of those things that didn't really seem to be talked about at all. No matter who you're around, it never really came up. I think Nelson is a lot more pro and [00:05:30] it does come up and it's kind of like it's not. It's not a taboo subject. So I think it was. It's a lot easier up here for me anyway. Is it important to you to kind of have a sense of belonging and being part of the queer community? Yes, it makes my life a lot easier because you're around people, you know, accept you for you and there's no judgement whatsoever. And people just like you [00:06:00] to be friends with you because of who you are. And it's not based on what you have or what you are. It's based on who. So that's probably a big one. How are you involved in the community? Um, just QS a, um I've always seemed to be in a QS a since Neiland minus when I was in Christchurch. So yeah, can you tell us what, um QS a means [00:06:30] quest Alliance and Keith Yeah, um how did you get involved in Keith? My first I was involved in and then from Nags. They found out about you when I was at. So I started going then and then when I came back up, I started coming back. Have you had any, like, highlights being involved in the group or things you've attended or everything? I mean, um, I love the [00:07:00] but, um, I just love It's one of my highlights of the week coming to QU. Do you think, um, being part of the group and the QS a at school and going on to, um the has made you, um, has it changed the way you feel about your identity or it's made me a lot more comfortable with myself. I mean, I wasn't comfortable with myself fully into last year. So and now I just kind of go [00:07:30] back to the theory that if someone doesn't like me based on my sexuality, they're quite narrow minded, and I really would rather not be hanging out with them anyway. Cool. How do you feel about the queer trends? Representation in the media? Like, Do you see characters that you can relate to on, like TV or on books on the news? I think it's great when you do see it, but I think there needs to be more of it. So it's more [00:08:00] normalised. And I think, yeah, it shouldn't be homophobia because, I mean, we're not another species or anything like, I think it's just ignorance and people just fear the unknown. And I just think it's silly because we're no different from anyone else. And I think it just should be put out in more and be more positive. Are there any, like TV shows or books or films or things like that that, um, [00:08:30] you've really liked because of the portrayal of queer characters? Um, we just start. There was a few, uh, I have no idea off the top of my head, to be honest, but I've seen quite a few that I like, um, the recent one that I liked that I watched was the Bird house, and that was just great. And I was just like gay people. It was, um, it was like all these different kind of characters [00:09:00] all in one movie, and it was just and that was a lot of drag. And it was just a really good movie. Do you see your your identity, like as a bisexual woman. Do you see that? Um, and characters at all in the media. I find it easier to come across ones that are, I think is a lot more tricky to come across. I haven't come across as many as I have been as lightly as bans or drag or what not. [00:09:30] I really haven't seen as much that are. What do you think about, um, like Facebook and Social Media is playing a part in, um, the queer community and how we connect with each other and things like that. Um, I think it's great because then it's easier to connect with other people, regardless of where they are, who you can relate to. And it's great for if there's something on like an event, [00:10:00] it's easy to figure out where it is and what it is and stuff. So I think it's very handy and the 10 to communication or getting in touch with people. What issues do you reckon are the kind of most hard things to deal with for, um, creating people in New Zealand? At the moment, I'd probably say bullying and homophobia and just like [00:10:30] people know, losing you be yourself, have you had much experience with them? Bullying, Yes, but not in terms of, um, homophobia, I think. What do you think the issues are gonna be in the future for people that do The times are changing. I think they're changing and they're getting better. But I don't think that the whole homophobia thing's gonna be cured overnight. [00:11:00] I think it's gonna take a while because you still have people. And, like especially parents, not necessarily accepting the kids because they are so and family members. So I think it's still gonna take some time, but I think it is getting better. What do you think about the marriage Equality bill passing recently? I think that's great. I think if you love someone, regardless of who it is that what you do pretty much buying closed doors is your [00:11:30] business and that I think it's great because you should be able to love whoever you love. It shouldn't be. You shouldn't be told that you can't marry someone you love. I just think that's wrong. Um, are you interested in getting married yourself? Kind of like family, that kind of thing, Yeah, one day. What are your kind of dreams like plans for the future. Do you want to, like, stay in Nelson or their particular like jobs [00:12:00] you're interested in or things you want to study? Um, I I'm gonna stay in Nelson because of my daughter, And, um and I just want to raise her up quite very open minded. And the job that I want to do is counselling. I'm gonna be a counsellor, and I'm interested at the moment in adults and GB RT. So I'm trying to weigh [00:12:30] out what I want to do within the counselling. Awesome. Do you find that, um, being bisexual and having your daughter Does that kind of change? People's like perceptions, Or does that make people assume things about you? I think some people probably assume stuff. Um, I don't really care. I'm just gonna raise my daughter as open minded and because I don't want her being homophobic. I just want her to know that people [00:13:00] are people, and you should you shouldn't. You should should judge people based on how they treat you. So yeah. Um what about, like relationships? You've had especially like being bisexual. Has it been tricky? Um, I've had one girlfriend. Mostly went out with guys. I think it's more. I find it easier with guys to know how to do it because it's like how [00:13:30] to make a relationship work because I've always gone out with guys. I guess it's more fear of experimenting going out with a girl because I don't know what the etiquette is. Pretty much it makes me nervous. So, yeah, um, do you think like, when you have been, um, with a male partner? How does that feel to your to the other side of you? Do people ignore it or [00:14:00] the current partner doesn't ignore it? Actually, he surprised me by when I first started dating him, and he said, Do you want a girlfriend as well? Um, it's not that he wants me to have one that's more. He wants me to be happy. Um, but I think it's just more gets complicated sometimes in my head, because if I'm more attracted to a girl and more wanting to be near a girl, then it really messes up my head a way bit in the context if I'm dating the opposite sex, [00:14:30] because it's just like you love this person, but you're not attracted to them adult, so it's just awkward. Do you see, um, lots of stereotypes about people in the queer community? Like what stereotypes do you hear about? I mean lesbian woman, bisexual people? Stereotypes? I think there's tonnes. I honestly wouldn't know [00:15:00] where to start. It's There's so many stereotypes. I mean, there's a stereotype. If you go to an all boys and all girls college that you're gonna end up gay, there is a stereotype. If you go to a a Christian school, you're not gonna end up queer at all. I think there's just a lot of stereotypes, so I think that stereotypes are just all completely and utterly wrong. Where do you think they come from? [00:15:30] I guess when it comes to schools thinking that if you're around the same sex and long enough, you'll probably turn queer. But I don't think you can really turn queer. I think you just are so I don't really care for stereotypes. What other, um, things in your life or parts of your identity are important to you. Like, are you involved in other groups outside of the queer community? Uh, no. Um, [00:16:00] the only stuff I really go to outside is really like If there's career events on in the same place that I am, then I'll go. But outside that, I'm it's not a lot. Um, do you find it hard? Because there aren't many people probably around your age and Nelson, who are also queer. Do you find that? Well, I'm the oldest one minus clear in youth, so [00:16:30] I'd say it does make it a bit tricky because there's not a lot of bad people there are in the group, and it's just easier when you can get someone who can completely and utterly relate on the same level. Yeah, definitely. Do you think, um, things have progressed more for people who are gay or lesbian than they have for bisexual people? I think you hear and see a lot more stuff in media and other stuff about gay and lesbian [00:17:00] than you do by. It's not as much as I've come across in any way. It's not really shown or spoken as much about how have your family reacted to you? Um, being bisexual? Well, my mom's reaction was, Are you sure about 50 times? My dad is like, Oh wow, OK, sweet more because he knew he couldn't. It's not [00:17:30] like he can change it, and my father's family is all fine with it. They my father, he's fine with it. They think it's great. So, yeah, it's slightly mixed between my mom and my stepdad and my father and his family. What do you know about, um, the history of New Zealand's queer and trans community? Or all I know about is that, uh, [00:18:00] if you go back to when my mom was young is that it wasn't accepted. It was a taboo subject. It was hidden and it was illegal. Other than that, I don't really know that a lot of the history Where do you think we're gonna be in the in the future? Well, I hope that it will just be a talked about subject, and it won't be taboo, and there won't be homophobia. And if everyone just accept everybody [00:18:30] as people, so that's where home will be and to finish up. What's your favourite thing about being queer and bisexual in New Zealand? Being different, I guess, like being unique being myself and like being able to have friends that are too in the community. So yeah, it's quite cool. You get to meet a lot of different people.

IRN: 757
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/south_kennedy.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004258
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089552
TITLE: Kennedy - South
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Dunedin; GALS (Nelson College for Girls QSA); Inglewood; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Māori; Nelson; Orange Is the New Black (tv); Pride (Nelson); Q Youth (Nelson); Rule Foundation; South (series); Tabby Besley; activism; bullying; coming out; creativity; documentary; education; facebook. com; gender; gender fluid; gender identity; hui; internet; invisibility; media; pansexual; parents; pride; pronouns; queer straight alliance (QSA); religion; school; school prom; school uniform; sex education; sexuality; single sex schools; social media; teaching; transgender; tumblr. com; writing; youth
DATE: 5 October 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Nelson, Nelson, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Kennedy talks about pan-sexuality, school and Queer Straight Alliances (QSA).
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Maybe you could start off by telling me how you describe your identity. Oh, goodness. Um, is it's kind of fluid for, um, it's kind of close as I can get it, I guess. Would be pan sexual and gender fluid, I guess. What do those, Um, I guess that I'll like I don't know. It's kind of in terms of attraction [00:00:30] and everything. I kind of I'm not really bothered by physical things or anything. Um, I just kind of go for people. And that's, uh I guess pansexual was a good label to have for myself, um, and gender fluid. Um, God, I wake up one day, and it's kind of completely different. Like I can wake up with no gender or four genders, I don't know. [00:01:00] And, um, so yeah, gender flu was a good kind of word for me to flow between them all. Cool. Um, and are you at school? Yeah. Yeah, I am at high school. What's it like being a queen? Please make your school. Um, well, it's a lot easier now than it was when I was, like, 13. Um, I haven't in terms of like gender. I haven't really That's [00:01:30] not nice because I'm in a like a single sex school and we've got, like, a uniform and everything, and that hasn't been nice the whole time. So we're fighting for pants at the moment. Um, but in terms of kind of sexuality, it's been at the school that I'm at now. It's been OK. I haven't had too much bullying. I've had a bit, but not as bad. But I went to another school, like way back when I was 13, and that did not go well at all. Like [00:02:00] originally. I was bisexual as a stepping stone and, um, then I. I think I had some book in my bag and somebody was like, Are you gay? And I was like, I buy. And then I guess within the next two hours everybody know because it was a really small school, and, um then I just I was horrendously bullied for that, um, and I had, like, people coming up to me and kind of like it was kind of the name calling and everything. [00:02:30] And then there was more physical abuse, which wasn't nice and, like the teachers never stepped in or anything at all. And I had somebody pull a knife out on me. Which was? Yeah, like in a corridor. And one of the teachers just kind of walked past and was like, I'll just clean up when you're done. I was like, Ok, thanks. Thank you for that lovely defence, I guess. Where abouts was that school? Um, and and do you get Do you see a much difference in the kind of Nelson community? [00:03:00] Yeah. Like because I lived. I lived here before I moved up there, and then I moved back, um, a few months later, and I didn't think that it was that great here. But then when I came back it, I realised it was really a lot better. And, um, I think while people can, like, you know, they're not always as accepting as you'd like it to be. It's definitely a lot more open here, so, yeah, [00:03:30] maybe you can tell us where angle is and what kind of place it's in Taranaki. It's like maybe 15 minutes out of New Plymouth. It's tiny, tiny town, Um, and kind of like everybody knows everybody kind of place, so I don't really know how I ended up there. Um, but I did. And, um, like, I had a couple of friends, and some of them were really cool. And, um, they were really love me and helped me kind of get through everything [00:04:00] and just, you know, But then they started getting bullied, and the teachers kind of came up to me, and they were like, Look, your friends are getting bullied now, and that's not nice, so I think you should just go. It was like, Wow. All right, thanks. Um, so your current school, that's quite different. What kind of do you have? Well, when I got there in 2009, I was kind of under wraps, And, um, there wasn't a lot kind of going on. And then [00:04:30] when I was, I think 14. I heard about this, like, Queer Straight Alliance there or something. But I ended up going because I got told that I wasn't allowed or something, and I don't know, some crazy person told me I wasn't allowed to go, And so I think it was nice to just kind of knowing that it was there and that obviously, the school is a lot more open to that kind of stuff. But of course, because I was, like, 13. All of the people in my class were like, Oh, my God, are you gay? You wear skate shoes? Um, and so, yeah. And then, um, I started [00:05:00] going to the U a and to the community one I started going to in 2011. And, um, it was just I don't know, It was really kind of nice to know that that kind of stuff existed for people like me and, um, yeah, so I think not. And also, like, not just knowing that they existed, but also knowing that it was there for other people in schools and that obviously it was a lot more kind of inclusive [00:05:30] here. Yeah. Have you seen, um, your school environment kind of change since you were 13. 17? Yeah. Yeah. I think like people are like, they are, um, because I'm leading the QS a at my school now, um, they've like, it's it's really kind of nice to look at, like to kind of compare everybody back then. Especially all the people in my year group who have grown a lot and aren't so kind of intimidated by everything. And it's just become [00:06:00] more of a normal thing. Over the years, um, and people have started to kind of accept that it's not some ridiculously taboo subject that you should stone people for or something like that. Um, and they've just I think everybody's kind of grown up. And as they keep coming through because these things are kind of there and they're put out in assemblies and stuff, um, they start to understand more at an earlier age that it's it does exist and that kind of stuff. So everybody else is [00:06:30] more comfortable. Um, and as a QS a leader. Could you tell us a bit more about what, like que straight alliance is and some of the stuff you get up to in your school kind of stuff. I hate these definitions of quest. Strait alliance is just kind of a, um, an alliance of, um, queer young people at schools or within schools, I guess, um, and outside, um, and also straight allies and supporters, um, that come together [00:07:00] in a group and we have meetings every week. Um, and we just kind of hang out and talk about stuff, and I've been kind of running workshops with my girls and variations they're upon and, um, kind of helping them to learn about things and making sure that they know that they've always got a place to go if they need to. And somewhere that they've got, like, you know, someone to talk to about anything they need to and basically helping them to get more involved with things. We've got some people who are really keen on it all, Um, [00:07:30] and the, uh um like it's over the kind of like the course of just a year. I've seen all these people kind of grow and, like, mature and stuff, and it's just really nice. Um, what's the kind of education, like in your kind of health classes or in the rest of the curriculum, is there anything on sexual orientation or gender identity? Um, as far as I know, like, I have only taken a certain a certain range of subjects, so I don't you know it's not. [00:08:00] This is only my kind of point of view, I guess. But, um, my health class, well, we only really covered gender and sexuality when I was 14 and it was a really brief, um subject and I don't remember ever touching on gender at all. And I think sexuality was kind of like, OK, there are, like, three sexualities that you can have. You can be homosexual, you can be heterosexual or you can be bisexual, but not really. And then, [00:08:30] you know, we had, like, a couple of videos about relationships and stuff, and there were maybe two queer couples or something in those videos, so I guess that was cool. But, um, then other than that, like we went straight on to like, I don't know, some other weird stuff. And I have and all of my other subjects I don't think we've ever had anything to do with sexuality or anything. Um, and I was talking to one of the year tens in my QS a, [00:09:00] like, a couple of weeks ago about like they just started doing, um, sexuality in their health class. And she was like, It was not good at all like we tried. It was just after we'd done a couple of workshops, and so they, you know, their teacher said, you know, do you know any names for sexualities or gender identities? And so they were sticking their hand up and stuff, and she just kept saying that that wasn't true. And and, um so then she just kind of covered as like, it's a little bit more than we covered when I was in year 10, but still not much at all. And, [00:09:30] um, I did go into a health class and kind of talk to them about Q youth and about, um, our QS a gals, um, and talked about identity and stuff a little bit. And, um, you know, it's been kind of touched upon certain subjects, and I always write about queer stuff and English in the hope that somebody will have to read it later. But, um, there's not a lot, you know, in terms on the education side of things, it's kind of swept under the rug [00:10:00] a little bit. How do the, um, staff and other students in the school kind of react like when you do things like, um, writing about queer stuff in your English assignment? Or I don't know, if you've, like, had an experience taking a, um, career transplant to like a school board or anything like that? What kind of reactions do you now? It's not so bad because everybody kind of expects it from me. Like, um, my I do media studies. And, um, my film last year was about, [00:10:30] um uh, kind of a queer boy. And it was all through, like, symbolism and stuff. And people were just kind of like again. And, um, this year I made a documentary about a, um, queer and straight youth. Um, and they were kind of just, you know, they just kind of accepted that. That's what I do. And, um, they just kind of they're starting to not think of it so much as queer stuff as just stuff. Um, when I do queer writing, they're not. So, you know, they just [00:11:00] look at it as writing now, I guess, um, and my teachers aren't really bothered or anything. Um and yeah, but when we kind of like I went to my school ball a couple of months ago and I took my girlfriend and, um, people were kind of, you know, they didn't think about it so much. But then I think like because a few of them I don't know if they know somehow and then, um I think when they noticed they were just kind of, like, weird. Oh, OK, yeah. And then [00:11:30] I think it was just They thought it was weird that I had a partner, but yeah, but, um no, like, they've just kind of grown up and kind of realise that it's like, Yeah, it's just kind of a normal thing. And I don't really think about it so much now is kind of having that sense of belonging to a group or like being part of this community and putting it up to you. Yeah, I don't think I could have done like anything like if [00:12:00] I hadn't found this kind of stuff like, I mean, I had kind of semi supportive friends, but all of the, like, really, really supportive people that I know I've met through, um, you know, you and gals and all the other stuff all over the country, like all these, like, really wonderful people. I don't think that I could have, um, kind of gotten to this age at all without having come to these kind of groups and realised that it was [00:12:30] OK because I I wouldn't have lost it at all. How did you get involved in, um, Keith um, my my girlfriend at the time her cousin came. I don't know how she found out about it, but, um, yeah, her cousin came and she Yeah, we were hanging out at her place one day and she was like, Oh, yeah, no, I heard about you. You you guys should totally come like, look at you. And so we went along, and then, um it was really cool [00:13:00] and colourful and the people were really nice and all that kind of stuff. And so then we came back and one of the people that was there kind of said to us, Oh, hey, you should come along to gals at school. Um, I've seen you around. You should come. And so we started going there, and then we broke up and she stopped coming. Um, but I came anyway and, um, yeah, so that's yeah, that's how it happens. Have you had any, like, highlights being involved in the grove like things you've got to, [00:13:30] um I don't know, like even I don't know, like, the like and like going to all the that, um, have happened is some really cool, like meeting people from all over the country and, like, just, I don't know, they're really cool. And and, um, like the like. Pride Week has always been really cool. And I really liked getting to kind of organise it this year or helping out to organise it at school. And, um, [00:14:00] I think being able to step up as a leader and kind of role model for all these people at school and within as well, I guess, um has been really nice and kind of heartwarming when people come up to you and they're like, Oh, hey, I really like what you do. It's really nice. Like I'm like, Oh, I'm fuzzy. Um, can you tell us more about what a who he is? Um, it's a gathering of people. Um, [00:14:30] I guess, Like who is? I go to queer and straight allies. Um, and we kind of hang out for three or four days, um, and do kind of workshops and stuff on inclusive groups. And, um, like I don't know, QS a planning that kind of stuff. And, um, meet new people from all over the place and just hang out and make friends and have fun. I don't know. [00:15:00] Do you think those are like important events to be happening or yeah, why? Yeah, definitely. Um, I think it's really important for people to kind of go to them like not only for you know, there's I don't know, like I can't really explain it like, um even if like, they're not, You know, even if somebody's kind of firm in their identity or not, it's always nice to go into these kind of things like, because basically, you just like it's [00:15:30] your own community and your own kind of little living situation for a few days. And it's kind of just a little society that you make where nobody is assuming anything or judging anything. And, um, to have even just a few days of that is like a blessing. I guess, um and it's really important for people to go so they can kind of see what the world could be like. And then it gives them more motivation to work towards it. [00:16:00] Are you involved in any, um, kind of activism or political stuff in terms of care, training stuff? Um, I don't know I. I do some things. I just I don't know. I don't really put names on them or anything. I just do stuff. Um, I've Well, we made a What I do remember as a kind of thing was, um, my QS a made a, um, submission for the marriage equality campaign thing last year. Um, [00:16:30] and it was basically just kind of a slide show with some pictures, and they were really cute. And we kind of, like, held signs up saying stuff about marriage quality, and I kind of just wrote people. And I was like, Hey, come hold this sign and take a picture. Um, and we put it all together alongside a letter that I wrote, um, as a QS a letter and a queer person and a young person and sent it off. And people really liked it, like I don't know, like I. I got some kind of messages [00:17:00] on Facebook from people who said that their friends had, like, messaged them this link and been like, Oh, look at this. This is really cool. And so that's kind of the only thing that I really remember doing. It's awesome. How do you feel about, um, current trait protestation in the media? Um, I don't I have kind of mixed feelings like, um, there's definitely a need for kind of more representation Or maybe better representation. Like I, [00:17:30] um I don't know. All of my knowledge comes from TV shows, but I've been watching Orange is the new black, and that was really good for presentation. Um, but I kind of started watching it, and I was like, Oh, my God. Translating being played by a translator, Um, and all this stuff. And I was kind of like I shouldn't have had to be surprised that a show was so good for representation. Um, like all the diversity was in it like it was just crazy. [00:18:00] But it shouldn't have been crazy. I don't know. And, um, like, I feel like even at, like, the film festival that we had. Um and I made the film this year and last year about kind of queer stuff. People were like they they watched it and they were like, Oh, this is about queer weird. It's like, Well, why is that a special thing? I don't understand it. I don't know. I feel like there definitely needs to be more so that it's more of [00:18:30] a like Nobody's really surprised and or, like, really, really excited about it when it happens. Like it just it's just a random queer couple in there. I don't know. Do you think that certain kind of parts of the queer community are more represented than others? Like, Do you see your kind of identity as, like, sexual, gender, flu kind of stuff? Do you see that? Represented in the media? Um, like, I think most of the things [00:19:00] that I've seen are kind of like, um straight. Oh, no, not straight one. Like, um, maybe sis gay white men and, like sis gay lesbians and all that kind of stuff, like, um, girl's fi. And, um, it's like they're always, I don't know, it seems like, and they're always kind of like middle class and all this kind of stuff, and it's like, Well, I'm I'm [00:19:30] Maori and, like, gender fluid and all this stuff like, where am I and this stuff and, like, I never I've never I've seen, like, maybe one thing with a trans person in it. And, um, like, like the kind of gender identity is really not explored at all really mentioned on anything. Um, and when it is, it's kind of. It's so because it's so um kind of invisible to people. They're all really taken aback by it and disgusted [00:20:00] and all that stuff, or they jump on some bandwagon that they think exists. Um and I don't I don't know. I think like maybe I think gays and lesbians are definitely more represented than kind of like like basically, people focus on the LG and not the BT. I like I've never seen anything about an intersex person. I don't know. Do you think social media plays a pattern for [00:20:30] community, Especially with young people? Yeah. Yeah. Like I, um I think like without the like a lot of, like, all of the planning for like and stuff happens online. Um and, you know, you hear about it more through, um kind of like Facebook and Tumblr and all that kind of stuff. And, um, also kind of managing to keep in contact with people like mainly on Facebook, and, um, kind of joining groups and stuff like, I've I'm part of a tonne of kind of gender [00:21:00] groups and stuff on Facebook and just seeing people kind of interacting on there even if they're like I don't know. Like I even if I never I've never posted on there. I never talk to them, but it's just nice, like seeing them. And like, I think it's it's good for people to just make connections, I guess, and just know that they're there. So when you were kind of realising your sexual orientation and gender identity, did you have to come out to people? What was that like? Um, well, I [00:21:30] kind of when I was like, maybe 12. I started kind of realising something was up with sexuality and I was like, Hm, maybe I'm kind of gay, But I also went to a Catholic school. So then I was like, No, I'm not God will swipe me. Um, and I kind of tried to stop thinking about it. And then, um, I accidentally came out to my teacher because I had an argument with her about why I say came out. She assumed, [00:22:00] um, because I had an argument with her about why God made gays if he hates them so much and all this stuff. And then I got really kind of riled up about it, and she was like, You can't be this passionate unless you're queer. And I was like, Well, yeah, I could be whatever. And, um, there were a couple of, like, really good friends that I had there. And I was like, Guys, I felt straight and they were like, OK, that's cool. And then they kind of shoved me into some weird relationship with this other girl. I don't know. And then, um so I sexuality wasn't really an issue [00:22:30] in terms of coming out. Like, I've always been kind of comfortable with it. And I came out to my parents. Well, I, I came out to my mom, and she wasn't too bothered by it. My dad has yet to fully accept it. He said words to me about it, like a few months ago. They were great. Um and, um, yeah, so I mean, sexuality hasn't really been a huge issue, and I just kind of got to a point where I was like, I don't care. People will kind of guess after I shave my [00:23:00] head and was really open about being at Q youth and stuff. Um, but gender, I haven't really No, I haven't come out to many people about it like the only people that I've kind of come out to. I love like within the queer community and a couple of my friends. Actually, they're all in the queer community. Yeah, so I like. That's kind of really under wraps. And it's really difficult because I've got two different names in two different communities and sometimes they cross over like I've [00:23:30] got one name at school, which means I've got one name in my QS a but then they come to you and then I've got a different one, and so that's really hard. And I thought that I accidentally out of myself with a different name at this at this film festival. But I didn't, so that was OK. Um, I think the only reason that I, I mean, I'm I'm I'm I'm as comfortable as I can be with a gender that changes every day. But I think the only reason that I haven't been kind of able to come out to people is because it's so invisible [00:24:00] and kind of not represented and all that kind of stuff that people just think that it doesn't exist at all. So then if I try, they'd be like, Oh, no, No, no. You just like wearing shirts. I don't know. Yeah, like I know that my my parents would kind of just be like, Oh, again, another one. Like, what are you doing? Um, so that's kind of difficult to live with. I'm kind of I'm excited to move out and move to a different city so that I can introduce myself with this kind of new name and stuff [00:24:30] and new pronouns, and nobody's going to question it. And then later on, I can come back and be like, Hey, guys. Yeah? Where, um, where do you want to go? What do you want to kind of do with your future? Um, next year I'm moving to Dunedin and I'm gonna work for a bit, and then I'm gonna go to uni and I'm studying. I'm gonna study to become a teacher, which I think will be really cool, because I could probably help schools. [00:25:00] So yeah, I could be that teacher, and, um, I just really I I don't know. I want to kind of get involved with, um kind of local Q SAS and kind of make sure that I don't lose touch with the queer community. and kind of basic I. I want to try and kind of give back as much as I've gotten from these kind of things. Um, And I think if when I'm a teacher, I don't know, um, being [00:25:30] able to kind of, like, help out with the school and kind of be the teacher to go to about, like, QS a stuff. Or maybe they won't need a QS a but maybe they want one. I don't know. Um, being able to help out with that kind of stuff would be really nice, especially if it's like, you know, knowing from my own experiences at school. And I think it would just be really heartwarming to know that other people don't have to go through that kind of stuff. So I wanna help. That's an awkward ending. [00:26:00] Um, you talked before about how kind of invisibility, especially around like gender stuff, is one of the most like it really big issue. Um, what other issues do you think are kind of the most pressing ones facing current trans young people in New Zealand at the moment? Um, I don't know. I like I always have, like, one thing in my head at a time of, I think, really just that nobody knows about it so much. And I mean, people get scared, but they don't know things. [00:26:30] Um, like it. I think they just like basically, if everybody kind of got more educated on things and knew about it, I think that the lack of education around it is appalling. Um, like, even if we just had kind of more of a segment in health classes and introduced it more at an earlier age, like if you'd started learning about it in, like, Year seven and year eight, then it wouldn't be such a difficult thing to try and [00:27:00] understand. When you start thinking about it more, and when you have to try and swallow like all of the stuff about queer like and straight relationships and all this stuff when you're 14 and then you never hear about it again like it's, I don't know. I think education is really lacking, and it really needs to happen more. I don't know, and kind of like that would definitely kind of clear a lot of stuff. [00:27:30] This is really big, and, um, I think just a lot of people's kind of like they don't want to accept things like they just like there's people who just don't want things to change, and they can't accept that things are changing. And so, you know, if these people have Children who are queer, it's like it's either kind of, you know, they don't want to face it And so they kind of kick them out and that kind of stuff or they, [00:28:00] you know, maybe some of them accept it and change themselves. Um, that would be nice, but I think I don't know. I don't know. It got really vague. Um, having more spaces for queer and trans youth to kind of be within would be really good, like if every kind of if every town had a QS a or had some sort of education thing happening, it would help [00:28:30] so much and kind of push everything forward a little bit because people would then know about it all. And they wouldn't be so scared of trying to accept it and trying to understand it. I think that's that's a lot of it is that people just don't know what issues do. You think, um will be facing clear and and say, like, 10, 50 100 Like I know, like in the future. Um, hopefully just really bad. Hopefully the only issue is that they're not comfortable with themselves, [00:29:00] and they need help trying to understand it. And hopefully there will be kind of, like resources open to them. And I mean, this kind of fight, I don't know isn't gonna end any or probably isn't going to end any time soon, but I think it's definitely changing things. Um, so I don't know. I mean, hopefully it'll be kind of less like, you know, swept away and ignored and everything, but [00:29:30] I don't know. I've got some idea in my head I don't know how to describe it like I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I'll come up with an answer at some point. So maybe to finish off, what is your favourite thing about being a young person in New Zealand? Oh, man. Um, probably just all the people that I've met and knowing, like, because if I like all the people that I've kind of met through [00:30:00] all of the like kind of work that I've done with and with girls and everything like they've just been so open and and lovely and beautiful and all those things, and they've helped me kind of grow as a person and grow into my identity. Um, like, I had no idea that gender was a thing until, like, last year or something. Um and I don't know, basically just yeah, meeting all these people and like learning all these different stories [00:30:30] from people and kind of, you know, sharing your experiences and sharing your stories and knowing that they're helping people somewhere. And kind of just knowing that you're not alone in the world. I guess that's when, like and also just like what? Like knowing that things are changing and that you've helped it. It's a really it's really rewarding, I guess. Like one day, people are going to look back and be like, Oh, look at all the stuff that happened and be like, Yeah, I was there. [00:31:00] I helped. Yeah.

IRN: 756
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ATL REF: OHDL-004257
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089551
TITLE: Group 1 - South
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; GALS (Nelson College for Girls QSA); Lesbians from Outer Space (comic); Mani Bruce Mitchell; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Maryan Street; Nelson; Oscar Wilde; Philadelphia (movie); Pussy Riot; Q Youth (Nelson); Rule Foundation; San Francisco; Sara Quin; Shortland Street (tv); South (series); Stonewall riots (1969); Tabby Besley; Tegan Quin; The L Word (tv); United States of America; Wellington; bisexual; bullying; children; cis female; documentary; education; equality; facebook. com; gay; gender; health; history; identity; internet; intersex; lesbian; marriage; marriage equality; media; queer; queer straight alliance (QSA); school; sex education; sexuality; single sex schools; social media; sport; television; transgender; tumblr. com
DATE: 2 October 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Nelson, Nelson, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast a group of young people in Nelson talk about growing up, school and Queer Straight Alliances (QSA).
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I identify as a CIS gendered female sis being what I was born, as so I was born as a female and which I feel comfortable with identifying with What about your, um, sexual orientation? Um, I I identify as a lesbian when publicly asked, I don't go around telling everybody Well, I'm gay, but, um, yeah, I never hide my sexuality. I'm pretty comfortable with it. Um, I use female pronouns, and I get [00:00:30] asked like gender questions regularly, but I don't get offended. And my sexual orientation is lesbian, But I don't Yeah, exactly flaunt it around a lot. But when I get asked, I answer with that. Yeah, Um, I'm male. I Well, I'll just say that I like guys more than girls. Um, you two talking about how you kind of you say you were a lesbian? If someone asked, Is that do you use [00:01:00] that kind of language because you think people it's easy for people to understand, Or is that like something like a word that you feel strongly attached to? Or I think it's more understandable for people to say, lesbian, I mean, as a CIS gendered female, because if I say like I've told people I'm gay, but then they correct me saying, Oh, so you're a lesbian? So that's pretty much why I immediately say lesbian rather than gay or homosexual. I sometimes use the word queer in general, just as [00:01:30] an over, you know, like I use that word a lot in general. I mean, if people ask, I'd rather say I'm queer than, say, I'm a lesbian. But people, people seem to like that word, and they understand it a lot easier. You know, what does an equate mean to, um, it's I kind of use it as a word just for an overall word, like it's more happy. And it sounds. It's an umbrella umbrella word. Yeah. [00:02:00] Um, what do you guys think? It's like to be like young, queer people in Nelson. Specifically, I find there's not too much of an issue. I find that there there's probably a lot worse areas that we could be living in. Definitely. Um, I find even and Wellington has, like, a more hate I find like there's more hatred around around it there, and I've noticed on TV as well a lot more based [00:02:30] in those areas. But I find Nelson's a quite a comfortable place to live in being queer. Um, yeah, I totally agree. Nelson is a very queer, friendly place. And considering we're a small community, that's quite surprising because rumours around here spread like wildfire and, you know, a lot of the majority of them, like people, be secretive about it. But, um, yeah, it's pretty chill here. I mean, when I come out to people, they're like, Oh, cool. I've gotten a few high fives as well. From girls that are like, Oh, good job with it [00:03:00] And yeah, and going to an all girls school. It seems like one of those things. You want to keep quiet, but it's actually everyone's really accepting there. And, yeah, we've got our own QS a and everything. So that's, um, why why do you think that is like, Is there any thing you think that's different about Nelson? Or that you have here in the community that makes it feel like that? I find we're all able to express ourselves easily without getting like [00:03:30] I mean, there's hate everywhere and you get, like, judged every day. But there's not as much judgement here on the streets as there is in other countries, that's for sure. Yeah, I see that, um, this community here is very accepting with, um, difference, and they're very updated with change. So they, um, fit in easily with this, um, new marriage equality bill passing. So they're all very, um, about it, and they don't really judge on other people. [00:04:00] So, yeah, this is a very good community to be in for any queer folk. How do you guys feel about their marriage, equality, bill passing? I'm pretty damn stoked about it. Um, it's a great revolution for us all. And, um, it's it's good to have change because it's kind of been wallowing in the whole tradition of man goes with women for all that kind of stuff. So it's good that people accept the fact that people can love whoever they want to love, no matter what [00:04:30] gender or sexuality or sex or anything. So, yeah, it's pretty good. I'm God damn excited, too. I just astounded that I'm happy that we are now like I mean, there's still countries left to do it, but we're in there finally. So yeah. Um, were you involved in any of the Did you like, write a submission? Did you kind of get involved in any activism before the bill passed? Well, we [00:05:00] had done at my school QS a or Queer straight alliance. Um, gals, we, um, did a whole photo shoot where we took cardboard signs painted with, um, little word sign saying we support the marriage equality bill. And, um, remember, my one had a rainbow Pokemon ball on it, which was a small little anime. It said, um, gay marriage bill. We got to pass them all, which, you know, was playing on words for the slogan of the TV series. And, um, yeah, I got quite [00:05:30] a few likes on that one on the social network Facebook. And, um, yeah, yeah, I wasn't extremely involved, but I definitely sat on the couch and watched the whole thing. Definitely. And I Yeah, tears came to my eyes over a few few moments through that. So did the group feel part of here in Nelson? Um, did you guys do anything as a group? Well, we had a big party afterwards, which was extreme, [00:06:00] and, um, we had karaoke and everyone enjoyed the night. It was just awesome, like everyone was dancing and everyone met a lot of new people. And it was just nice to all be together again and to celebrate something definitely worth celebrating. Um, yeah. Previously last year, in October, around the mass parade, which is the big event we have for the arts festival. Um, our group marched down the road, [00:06:30] um, big street, where everyone was marching with, um, a whole bunch of queer pride things. And we were supporting everything. And, um, we had Stonewall, which is one of the first, um, queer pride groups. Um, during the 19 sixties and we represented them and yeah, it was more of a thing saying, Hey, we support you and you're not alone in this town. Every we have core support group. Yeah, um is having kind of a sense of community and belonging in this important [00:07:00] to you. Yeah, it is. It's, um it's good for people to know that, um, they're not alone. And it's more of having this community and being out there is also a sense to other people within the community that, um there are queer people here, and there are differences and that it's needs to be an accepted thing because it's very well known and it's we need to show people it's normal and for, um, the [00:07:30] younger queer people. It's good for them to know that there are communities out there that accept them. Like if I never found this place, I'm not sure if I would have come out or not. How did you get involved in Keith? Um, a friend of mine who was, um, very good friend of mine. Um, I met on the street one day who was doing a petition for, um, the passing of the marriage equality bill. And he invited me to Q youth one day [00:08:00] and I came with him, and then that's pretty much how it all began. So how about eating? I haven't been coming to for that long, but I find that it's an awesome place and to notice that young people can come in and be themselves and everyone can come in and be themselves and talk. Um, and, you know, ask questions and everyone can get anything off their mind and need to find out what they need to find out. And you know, everyone's welcome [00:08:30] and stuff like that. It's just awesome. Do you think being part of a group like this and kind of meeting other people has kind of, Yeah, has that made much of an impact on you? Or is it like changed how you feel about your identity, like being able to be in a place where you get to learn more about stuff? It makes us be able to be more open, I guess, and definitely know we feel safe and always have someone to turn to and especially looking forward to it each week. And, you know, like if you have problems during the week, you always know there's someone that knows the problems [00:09:00] and can understand what you're going through most of the time. And everyone's always, um, like here to listen most of the time, too. Yeah, it's, uh it's good to get a little more experience with people because in Q youth, we've got a variety of queer folk that, um, it's good to like, um, know what kind of things? A bit of queer educated, as I usually call it, Like, um, how to respect of those pronouns and, um, respect of those identities and accept difference. And, um, your difference can be accepted too. And if [00:09:30] there's something that you feel uncomfortable with, then that's perfectly OK. You don't have to go through with anything. And, yeah, it's It's a good community to be in if you're, um, very secretive or just out there. And, um, it's good for all ages. Um, what have your experiences at your schools kind of been like, as again, um, Well, at my school, it's pretty accepting. And which was, uh, like I said before, [00:10:00] quite a bit of a shock, considering I go to an all girls school. So I was really expecting girls to go around going Oh, you're a lesbian. I can't get dressed in front of you doing PE. Do you have a crush on me? Do you have a crush on everybody? And yeah, I was, um, accepting Everybody was pretty pretty cool with it. And, um, yes, we've got our own QS A. It's good to see that that started which, um my older sister, who was at my school previously was actually one of the founders of the QS A. And when, [00:10:30] um, I told her that I was going to be part of it, she was very proud of me, and she was proud that I would, um was so open about that kind of thing. And I wasn't afraid. And, um, it was good to be in that kind of community. No one. I never had any bullying problems with her or anything. I myself went to a college. Where? There it was. All types of people. Um uh, I myself was slightly in denial. Not not entirely, but more like everyone else was. I denied them [00:11:00] interest in my life, like I didn't let on anything. And they kind of just hush hush. And I was quiet through throughout college, really Until I left and that they they all realised I was I was getting And that was the end of that, Really. And But I felt, um, knowing that there was S a in the school was good. I wish now that I definitely got involved and probably tried to help a lot of people, even at my school, because I noticed there was definitely not enough people coming out, and they had a a struggle [00:11:30] at that school. Um, not so much bullying, but they definitely I think it was a hard school to come out, and and I wish I could have been there early and, you know, done something different, but oh, no. It was a good experience. That's cool. How about your dick? Uh, I don't really know, because no one really cared. Are you at school for one year, [00:12:00] And that was it. Are you a boy? That must be, like, quite a different experience to come after school. No one really wanted to mess with me because I'm huge. Have you seen much kind of bullying or anything happen? Not really. But that might just be because I'm over there and they might be over there somewhere else. So, [00:12:30] um, what was education kind of around sex orientation and gender identity, like in your health classes or other parts of the curriculum? Was there any or we had a fear, a small amount in health class. It was more like they wrote, you know, the words lesbian and that kind of stuff on board and was like, Look, this is they're out there, and that was more like it was more like that. It was It wasn't much of a broad, you know, they didn't really give us any information. [00:13:00] at all. It wasn't. It wasn't great. I'd say they probably should be clued up a bit, and the teachers should probably do their job a bit better. But, um, my school was pretty, um, pretty, right, considering we had a, um actual open lesbian, um, teacher for our health class. And she was, um, very open on the sexuality part, like she knew sexualities from all walks of life, but, um, not necessarily on the gender part of it. She was very discreet about it. Didn't talk too much. Um, And [00:13:30] she pretty much said, um, what is gender? And every girl in my class was pretty much just say male and female, and we didn't elaborate that much. And I just remember raising my hand and saying, Well, it's not so black and white. It's actually a spectrum and things like that. And then, um, a lot of those students were getting confused, and I didn't want to make a whole cascade out of it, and so I pretty much just kind of stopped over there, but, um, yeah, there was just It wouldn't be nicer to have a bit more of a wider variety [00:14:00] and not saying that you don't only have to be this or this there, are you? There are as many different choices if you feel comfortable with it. I was away quite a bit because I wagged a lot. But, um, the days that I was there, we didn't do anything on it. So there's nothing. Nothing. I'm just, um if you get talked about on other subjects, like to study like a don't [00:14:30] know, like, someone like biology or something, maybe. Or, you know, like maybe like an English, like a book about, um, characters or the queer author or anything like that. There was nothing much on any queer history of the world. Like there wasn't much on, um, like in English class when we were studying Oscar Wilde. Uh, back when I was in year nine. no one said anything about him being a queer supporter or anything about his, um, um [00:15:00] kind of association with, um, the queer folk. And it was pretty much just I mean, I can understand that that's a little trailing off what we were doing, but and, um, yeah, they're like, um, big rally groups of the 20th century. There wasn't anything on any, um, queer groups, even though they had quite a big part to play as in Like, um, like I said previously, Stone Wall, which was one of the big queer groups of the sixties. And, um, it would have been nicer to see that kind of stuff. Did either of you two notice me? Uh, well, in health [00:15:30] class when we were learning, you know, trying to learn about and stuff like that. We We watched the movie Philadelphia, which was an insight to somewhat of what Americans are like when it comes to gaming. And, um, starring Tom Hanks. And it's quite a sad movie. But I'd say it was it was more like a teacher just for forced because it was a group of girls. Most [00:16:00] of my health, um, class was girls, and it was it was hard to watch. And I think it was it wasn't really done for a reason. We just kind of watched it. And then that was that. It was like, Yeah, it wasn't much of a learning curve. It was just more like they just picked something just to we can get it out there. Um how do you guys feel about how current trends people are represented in the media at the moment. I guess you could also, yeah, think about different types of media [00:16:30] and, like, I mean, there's like TV shows, um, with characters. But there's also things like how maybe I I find documentaries are the best way to find anything you know, to actually watch. That would be the best thing, Um, live shows in general, like I love watching Ellen DeGeneres. But when it comes to shows that we have here in New Zealand, such as Shortland Street and, um you know, which are what we call soaps and stupid programmes that are on in the afternoons, [00:17:00] these have fake characters of what people somewhat think gay people are like and they try and they try, but they kind of just make a fool of themselves in ways. Yeah, what do you think about the portrayal of characters on? They try to They try their best, you know, and they more or less go by what they see on the streets or they think they know. Um, watching their own programmes, [00:17:30] I guess, or what they think is in their head. But they probably should think about getting characters that actually know themselves a bit better and maybe are what they are and going that way about it instead of, you know, making people out to be someone they're not definitely just for the just for the TV show. Yeah, um, I totally agree with the whole documentary thing. I mean, I've watched plenty of documentaries that are really good on, um, transgender and intersex and things like that. But, um, and not only do they do older people, [00:18:00] but, um, that are, like, sexually mature and things like that. But they also do, um, small Children that feel they have, um, questioning with their gender identity, which I thought it was absolutely phenomenal and, um, spectacular. But, um, when it comes to fictional shows like soap operas and things like that of good old stories, um, things like the L word and, um, lip service, all that kind of stuff as much as they are good shows and very interesting for the dramatic side of it when it gets down to the real queer thing. Um, it's very off the chart. It's very like [00:18:30] they are kind of more of oversexualized. It rather than actually telling you this is what it really is. And, um, it's just it's kind of sad, but at the same time, I mean, if that's what people want to watch, then go ahead. If it's media, it's media. Um, yeah, what do you think would make it better? I think putting in more realistic things like, um, I notice that a lot of the time when watching, um, all lesbian [00:19:00] soap operas such as L Word and Lip Services that, um, some of the women, um, find that, um, that their sexuality can be used to attract men as well as other women. And I think that's I mean, a little ridiculous like, um, they're kind of over sexualizing the whole lesbian thing. And, um, it's I mean, yeah, some people might do it, but it's a bit of a rarity. And, um, it's just kind of sad that they think that lesbianism isn't more [00:19:30] accepted than being gay and male. It's just more over sexualized and things like that. One show that I watched all it was was basically sex. That's it, which was a bit weird. Um, I think queer as folk, they just Yes, let's go find someone to have sex with. Yeah, good. On another show that I found quite astounding is, [00:20:00] um, a little Britain. A lot of the episodes on that they not so much over, but more like they tried to over, like, make him extra queer or something like and made him seem like he was the only gay in the villain. And I think they just and that I think they're trying to make it like a joke. And I think probably it would hurt a lot of people's feelings and some people do take the joke, But other people wouldn't be really, you know, like it In some ways. [00:20:30] Are there any queer characters in the media or even, um, queer people that you see in the media media, who are real people like, um and Nelson? We have, like, Marion Street, the labour MP. Or like you mentioned Ellen. Um, but yeah, especially in the media. Are there any kind of positive portrayals you have seen or like, characters you think are really kind of good? Whitney? That's all I can say. Whitney, tell us what Whitney Whitney on the she's just to die for. [00:21:00] She she um has recently gotten married to her girl girlfriend, Sarah. Someone I know. And I think in general it was on TV because their programmers are their lives on live television. So and in some way, they've done a cool thing by getting it out there. And I guess a lot of people do follow that show. And other than that, I wouldn't really know any other character. I mean, Nolan DeGeneres has done amazing amazing things. And Lady [00:21:30] Gaga another one. She's done some great things. Yeah, definitely. I have always loved the work of Tegan and Sarah Quinn, who are Canadian rock stars that are twin sisters. And they're both, um, queer and queer, supportive. They've done many things. They've done posters for, um, coming out and things like that. And, um, not only are they core supportive, they also, um, are activists from any other rights such as like, um, don't wear fur. Um, don't discriminate [00:22:00] against race things like that. And it's just lovely to see those kind of people are actually out there and not just focusing on one side, but a lot of others as well. I find a lot of, um um, musicians in the world, Um, that musicians are definitely doing a lot in the world. Um, there's some characters I find on TV, but definitely queer musicians are doing great things. Um, what other musicians [00:22:30] do you guys think you are doing? Great things. You can also talk about, like, books or comics and stuff that you kind of see, um, characters being portrayed better there than TV. Maybe this is a comic book that I once read once it was more of a web comic, but, um, which is a comic book on the internet. Um, but it was a little comedic and very fictional, but quite true. At the same time, it was called, um, lesbians from outer space. And it was all of these, um, humanoid alien women from outer space that were all lesbians. [00:23:00] But not only, um some of them were transgender as well. And, um, they had their fun antics within the comic and things like that. All their, um um, little stories. But, um, yeah, they also got down to some real stuff. Like, um, talking about some of the characters had problems with, um how they were feeling like, um, they don't feel male or female. They felt something else, and it was good for readers to look at it and see that, Um, yeah, it's just a wide spectrum of things. So I find myself listening to a lot of, uh, G punk bands. [00:23:30] A lot of them are mostly just feminist machine, but, um, a lot of them have a good a good word, like, just been about open about everything, really. I listen to, like, far as salt and, you know, like pussy riot. And they've got, like, some of the best words in their songs, mostly just They're just open to everything. And that's what I like and most musicians and, yeah, is there any kind of, um, things in the media that you really like about? [00:24:00] I reckon, uh, sports, sports people are definitely something where if they do come out, it's a great thing as well, because, um, a lot of people are more or less scared in sports when it comes to like coming out because it's I feel I feel like they have, like a worry because it's, um, you know, either a physical thing or people think it's a physical thing and you know when you're playing tackle rugby and you know people, people are a lot worried. And I've only heard of, like, [00:24:30] one of our I don't know if it was from our New Zealand team who came out or something, and he got a he got a lot of shit for it. And I find that's why a lot of people, you know, having a hide for so long and it's sad. But I like to see sports people coming out all over the world as well. The media quite a bit Is that, um we had a I think it was a council person here who was, um, in New Zealand. That was a, um on, um uh, the Labour Party. And he was, um, [00:25:00] you know, he came out as gay, and all in the media was all focusing on his sexuality rather than his political decisions, which I thought was extremely ridiculous, because that's really nobody's business, but his And, um, also, I'm going back to the sports thing. Um, I was reading an article the other day on these two women that were, um I think in some sort of like, um quiet. Um, National Olympic Sport that wasn't full on Olympics. But it was [00:25:30] in Russia alone. And these two Russian women that were sprinters and, um, one of them had won a sprinting competition or something like that. And, um, the girl that came second place, um, the two, the one that won and the one that came second place both kissed. And within Russia and then being Russian, it was a big deal because Russia recently has claimed war on homosexuality. And, um, it's very good that they're protesting against that because [00:26:00] it's ridiculous to claim war on love. And it's good that someone's speaking up and saying, I don't think so. Girl, how do you guys feel about, um, things like Facebook and Tumblr and Social Media? Do you think they play a big part in how you connect with other, um, young people feel community tumbler, Tumbler, Tumblr? Tumblr is one of the best communities I've ever been on. [00:26:30] I mean, this way. Yeah, there are a bit of the cyber bullying on there, but you get that with pretty much every social network. Um, but it's very minimal compared to, um, Facebook and YouTube and all that kind of stuff. But um, Tumblr, I've found, has so many queer, supportive, um pages and blogs and they're just absolutely, um, phenomenal. All these people that you can talk to and have a social connection with from all walks of life. And it's just so nice to see all that kind of stuff. And, [00:27:00] um, the creators and workers of Tumblr that, um, started the whole site are queer supporters, and they have many queer people working in their offices. And it's good to see that, Um, just everybody is so diverse and open to everything. Yeah, that's definitely one of my favourite websites. Um, I find a lot of other. The other ones are somewhat making the bullying worse because it's making it easier, you know, for everyone to attack other people with words. But, [00:27:30] um, Tumblr's got definitely by far the like, the least bullying I've seen on any website, and I find I can share a lot with the people on there, and they're all very supportive of me, and I'm supportive of them. But I find yeah, Facebook's one that I'd like to try to use a lot less, and I'd like to find bullying on all sorts of other websites cut down a lot. What do you guys think are the most kind of important issues that are still facing phone fans [00:28:00] in New Zealand today? Well, recently, a lot of people, um, haven't been very, like, open to intersex, which is the, um, child coming out with, um, both male and female genitalia. And a lot of people are very, um, not very open to that in the Nelson community. And recently we've had a person named, um, Marie that has come through, which is an intersex person that, um, did a whole seminar [00:28:30] on what intersex is. And they had gone to the States and interviewed heaps of people that were intersex or identified as intersex. And, um, it was, um I noticed that a lot of the people, um, including my own father, who came back from the, um, had, um, gotten so much education on what intersex really is and how it can be accepted. And it's not anything that, um should be defined as, um unacceptable or odd or should be changed. Things [00:29:00] like that. Um, what do you think issues are gonna be in the future? Like in say, 10, 2030 50 years. I think we're trying to have somewhat of the same problems, like people will still think it's a choice. And, you know, everyone has a choice. You know, to be that way they are. But most of the most of the time, it's not. It's just it's just the way we're all born, and I think people are still going to have problems with accepting. But I just hope it's going to get a lot easier day by day, you know, slowly but [00:29:30] surely it's gonna take quite a bit of time for, um, future generations to, um, accept this kind of stuff. Like, uh, I was, um, kind of going back to the North American, um, black scene of the, um, African Americans where, um, the whole slave trade thing, um, ended in 18 63 and still up until the 19 sixties, blacks were seen as the odd race. They were, um, seen as people were segregated and different. [00:30:00] But I believe that's what's gonna be for the queer people. It's like, um, it will take quite a long time for the entire world to accept all, um, homosexual marriages, and it's, um it's yeah, gonna take quite a bit, but hopefully, um, day by day, it will get better and people will be very more accepting. I find that in this town in General Nelson area, um, people have seemed to be more accepting [00:30:30] in the bisexual area. And I find that hopefully it's just going to get better with, you know, all folk and that people should just stop being rude in general and just accept everyone. Um, and do you guys have What are your kind of dreams for the future? Like, Do you want to get out of Nelson and the places you want to live? Do you want Do you want to get married? What kind of jobs do you want to do? I definitely want to go back home to San Francisco, where I was originally from, and because San Francisco is pretty [00:31:00] much the Republic of the Gays because, um, yeah, it's pretty much all the hustle and bustle happens, but yeah, I definitely want to move. I'm not too sure on the whole marriage thing, considering I'm still young and yeah, it's it's more depending on, like whether I want Children or not. And, um, it's good for the whole marriage thing because, um, not only is it a nice tradition thing, it's so good to get married. And because I love you and things like that. Um, but it's also good for the, um, [00:31:30] political and governmental side of it, like, um, the whole, um, having Children and all that kind of stuff. It's great to have that because, um, also adopting as a couple, not singular. Um, which is all good. I definitely I'd definitely love to get married one day. I'd definitely love to have Children. Um, I'd love to make a difference in other countries everywhere, you know, going over there, sharing stories, trying to help out as much as possible. Um, [00:32:00] but I'd love to live my life to the fullest here and make make a difference as much in my backyard as possible, you know? Yeah, I see. I don't know. And maybe to finish up, Um, What is your favourite or one of your favourite things about being a quite young person in New Zealand today? Being the C coopers in New Zealand, it's good to get into that kind of change thing. Like, um, like, showing people that [00:32:30] are especially being out, um, showing people that you're not afraid to, um, love who you want to love and that you accept the change in a lot of things like, um, the whole marriage and adoption and things like that and having Children and saying that No, we're not that different. We are like you. We just want to love who we want to love things like that. I love the fact that I can love girls freely without, you know, getting any hate. I love the fact that people see [00:33:00] me as someone they can talk to because I'm open about myself, and I find it makes you know, makes sometimes it makes people uncomfortable, and sometimes it makes them more more comfortable, you know? And I just love it. I love everything about it. That was it. The favourite rot. That's a Yeah, that's a really good question. Worst thing it [00:33:30] I don't know. It was just people wearing dicks. People wearing dick. It's hard. Um, is there anything any of you wanna? What else you wanna add on that? Thank you for listening. That's all. I hope you enjoying it. Yeah.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089550
TITLE: Peter Wells profile
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VOICES: Peter Wells
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; A Death in the Family (1986); About Face: Jewel's Darl (tv, 1985); Annie Goldson; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Best Mates: Gay Writing in Aotearoa New Zealand (1997); Dangerous Desires (1991); Derek Jarman; Desperate Remedies (1993); Edward Carpenter; Foolish Things (1980); Frank Sargeson; Gay Liberation Front; Georgie Girl (2001); Georgina Beyer; Good Intentions (1989); Grant Robertson; HIV / AIDS; Jeremy Bentham; Jonathan Dennis; Memory and Desire (1998); Napier; New Zealand Film Archive; New Zealand Film Commission; New Zealand Labour Party; Ngā Taonga Sound and Vision; One of Them! (1997); Paeroa; Pansy (2001); Parliament buildings; Peter Wells; Rainer Fassbinder; Rex Pilgrim; Richard Turner; Robert Muldoon; Rule Foundation; Russell Wells; Salvation Army; Squeeze (1980); Stewart Main; Stuart Dryburgh; Taxi Zum Klo (Taxi to the Toilet); The Hungry Heart: Journeys with William Colenso (2012); Tony Thompson; United Kingdom; University of Auckland; activism; arts; bullying; coming out; film; gay; gay liberation movement; homoerotic; homophobia; homosexual; homosexual law reform; media; narrative; oppression; politics; relationships; role model; storytelling; television; theatre; transexual; visual arts; writing
DATE: 5 October 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Napier, Napier, Hawkes Bay
CONTEXT: In this podcast Peter talks about the journey as a film maker and writer.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, my name is Peter Wells. I was born in Auckland. Um, and I'm very much an Auckland. My parents came from small towns. My mother came from Napier here. My father from, um And, um I went to university in Auckland, and I had the good fortune really to coincide with the very, very beginnings of gay liberation at Auckland University. So I went to the first meetings [00:00:30] of you know, what was called the Gay Liberation Front at Auckland University, and that was a wonderful time, really, To be young and coming out. And it was the time of, um, David Bowie. Um, changes. Um, it was a very energised sort of time, really? And it just changed my life completely. [00:01:00] Really. Um, the coincidence of that. And, um, I veered away from my background, which was probably which was very conservative and became more involved in sort of politics and gay politics. Especially, um, I. I got a postgraduate scholarship and went to the University of Warwick to study Edward Carpenter, who was [00:01:30] an early um, He was the first British writer to suggest that homosexual men and women should have equal rights apart from Jeremy Bentham, I must have. Um But when I was after about two years of doing my doctorate, I really decided it wasn't really what I wanted to do at all. And I I became aware that I really wanted to become a, um a writer, a fiction or non-fiction [00:02:00] writer. And so I sort of abandoned my PhD and began writing, Um, And after I think four or five years in England, I came back to New Zealand because all my writing was about New Zealand. And, you know, I dreamt about New Zealand all the time in tech, Really. And, um and I thought, Well, I must come home. And so I came home to New Zealand and New [00:02:30] Zealand at that stage. We're talking about 1979 1980. Muldoon had been in power for I don't know how long and New Zealand New Zealand was as if asleep. It was absolutely extraordinary, I suppose, particularly coming back from Britain, which was so politicised and energetic and things like that. Um and I met when I came back. I met Stuart Mayne, who became my partner, and he was involved in the really what was the nascent film industry [00:03:00] at that time. And he was a boom operator for various, um, early feature films. Um, um, trying to think of the directors now, Jeff Murphy and those sorts of people, Um, and through him, really, I became involved in the film industry. So called, although, really, it was just a cottage industry. And at that time, and, um, everyone who worked in the film industry wanted to become [00:03:30] a director to a degree, you know, and Stuart, of course, wanted to become a director. And a friend of his was making a film about the car culture on Queen Street. Um, Blythe, his name was surname was and Stuart was working on it, and I think I might have even produced the film at that stage. I was a proof reader working in the Herald at nights, Um, and after I'd finished in the Herald, I would go down to [00:04:00] Queen Street in the middle of the night where they were making this film and observe them making the film. And I became very aware of the fact that the whole stories telling side of film was a great weakness, and I felt as a writer or or as a creator of narratives. I could perhaps do something about that. And, um, because it was a period in which everyone was doing everything in film. Um, I got together with [00:04:30] a a friend of mine, Tony Thompson, and we made AAA short film called Foolish Things. Um, him doing the camera work and me writing the narrative. And, um, Stuart edited it, and I got her creative New Zealand grant to post produce it. And, um, that sort of launched me into filmmaking. Really? Um, it was just 11 minutes long, and, [00:05:00] um, it was sort of overtly homosexual. Um, and it's I suppose all my early fonts took place within the framework of the fact that homosexuality was illegal in New Zealand. And always, I was trying to push the envelope about visibility and about, um, sort of pushing for a presence and [00:05:30] the culture. Really? Um, uh, from the standpoint of the present day, it's almost impossible to project back to a time in which television really had no presence of homosexual characters at all, Um, overtly and, um in in soaps and dramas and things like that. Um, Or to the extent that they did exist. They were always, um, figures of [00:06:00] fun and sort of ridiculous sort of figures. Um, whereas I was more interested in giving a sense of a of a, um, ordinary drama, I suppose, and positioning gay people at at at at at the sort of centre of the narrative just by showing this is what it can be like. Um, so the foolish things, oddly enough, became quite [00:06:30] a successful little film. Um, and it became a short. It was shown as a short in Australia before tax, which was a very successful German period. Taxi to the toilet, it was called. This is all pre aids. Um, and that gave me quite a bit of confidence, um, to go on film making. Although I should hop back for a [00:07:00] moment and say that foolish things actually came about because I was I. I reacted so strongly to Richard Turner's gay feature film, uh, which was pioneering in many, many ways. Um, squeeze What was? I don't know if it was called the or the squeeze, but I really didn't like it at all. And I felt such didn't It seemed to me narratively [00:07:30] banal with the very strong opinions that you have when you're younger and very unforgiving opinions that you have when you're younger. So, in a way, he kicked me off into filmmaking because I really made foolish things as a, um as a contrast to the squeeze and I, I made it consciously lyrical and poetic and, um, with a strange narrative structure and things like that. Um, were you [00:08:00] aware of gay films? How many have you seen? How well I'd come from London and seen films which completely, utterly sort of blew my mind. Um, the bitter tears of peon can, um, you know, And, um, I was also very aware of, um that was terrible. Um, the English filmmaker, um, [00:08:30] who made jubilee, and, um, I'll think of his name in a minute. Derek Charman. Yeah. So Derek Jar's film that were coming out. Um, and so there was this sense of a whole sort of immensely creative period existing elsewhere, And it just seemed because New Zealand was captured in this terrible time zone with Muldoon and things like that. And and it was a much less globalised [00:09:00] world then, um, so that it seemed when I was in London, I was seeing all this very creative, productive work, which you did all sorts of things with narrative and was very, um, kind of strong. Um, And then when I came back to New Zealand and saw the squeeze, it just seemed to me a sort of rather a kind of melodrama. Really? Um, so that just pushed me into filmmaking. How was foolish things received? Um, well, it it was received. It was [00:09:30] received. Well, um, it was used as a short in the film festival, just as they are these days. And I also combined with, um uh, three other filmmakers, Um, and we showed our short films together and because there was something subversive about the whole thing of it, it really did attract a kind of a an audience and not a huge audience at all, But it attracted a kind of a, um, urban audience. [00:10:00] And it also coincided with, um, there was a feature film maid at the time. Strata made, um with immense amount of effort and things like that. And it so turned out that our short films made more money than this feature film. And a A. At that time, there was a huge, um, emphasis on feature films that was sort of like only feature films could exist, and only feature films were legitimate. So the [00:10:30] small group of, um, short film makers that I was working with, um pressured the film commission to essentially create what became a short film fund and actually take short film as seriously as a kind of an art form and as a sort of a as you know, as a thing in itself, um, so foolish things it did. It did. It found an audience. It did find, find an audience. Really? Can you give me a sense of what it was like [00:11:00] to be gay in the late seventies and early eighties in New Zealand? Uh, because we're talking that it was still illegal. Yeah, well, uh, it was a very explosive, ugly situation. Um, in many ways, because you were you were illegal. Um, if you were politicised you, you were [00:11:30] placed in quite an awkward situation and that there was one gay pub in Auckland, Um, and as a politicised gay person, if you were wearing a badge and of course, we all wore badges, you weren't allowed in. And so you know, it was a sort of, like, a strange environment of, um, a sort of well established closet world. If you if you like, that would have nothing to do with politics at all, because it meant coming out and all the ramifications that mean in terms of employment [00:12:00] and family and things like that. And then there was a sort of little politicised world where we were sort of fighting for, um, homosexual rights, really, through marches and political agitation. And we used to do political theatre and and stuff like that. Um, it it it was a strange world because there was so little information available. You know, there was just so little information available about, um, [00:12:30] about the whole broader story. Really? Um, I mean it. It was also an exciting time, I suppose, because it felt like change was inevitable, Which it was, of course. So, um, yeah, what effect do you think? Uh, the gay liberation front had on you, Um, enormous ab, absolutely enormous. Really. It changed my whole life, really? [00:13:00] And the way I was and the way I saw the world and I made enormous friends and, um, just changed everything really? I think I went from being probably a very, very isolated teenager. I went to an all boys school, Um, which was both highly homo erotic and extremely homophobic at the same time. Which is a pretty toxic combination, really. I suppose, [00:13:30] like, all male, all male institutions, Really? And I think that damaged me a lot. Really? There was a lot of bullying went on there. When I look back now, at the time, I just thought that was how the world was. But I see looking back, I mean, I was quite severely bullied. Really? Um, to the degree, really, I lost a voice. I really couldn't speak in public at all. I couldn't talk in public at all. Um, because every time I spoke at school, I was [00:14:00] sort of, uh, persecuted because I had an effeminate voice. Supposedly, Um although I did fight back, I did bite back with wit and things like that, and that always frightened people who who who bullied me because they didn't like what I said. And they they would be very shocked at the sharpness of what they said. So I did fight back, but it was pretty much a difficult situation. So going to university and finding [00:14:30] this whole compatible world of people who've all been through, I suppose similar kind of experiences meant there was a kind of explosive force. Really? Um, we sort of exploded against each other and, um, had a fantastic time. I haven't said that at the same time. Yeah, the dominant narrative. When I when I came out, which is about 1971 72 the dominant narrative was was a very [00:15:00] tragic one. You know, for homosexual men and women. I mean, it was a terrible when you looked at what was meant to be your life. It was really very. I mean, you didn't realise that the negative stereotype that you were faced with all the time was a way of oppressing you. It just seemed like that was all that was offered to you. That was what life possibly was [00:15:30] like. You know, people committed suicide or you know what I mean Or drank themselves to death or got bashed up. Um, you know, I mean, it was a not a not a pleasant kind of narrative that that you felt surrounded by, um but and yet at the same time you were trying to change all that and have a kind of love affairs and change the way you lived and, um, the way the whole narrative went So [00:16:00] it was a It was a complex, I think a very complex negotiation, Really. I think so. When you start putting gay characters on film, what is the response from the gay community at that time? Well, you see, the gay community was so broken into all these different what was very severely divided between politicised people who were a tiny minority, and people who who weren't out, who resented [00:16:30] and felt insecure, that you were making their life difficult. And, um, why were you doing it? And you know, they, I mean because I wasn't in in that world. It took me many years later to realise that there were some amazing stories from within that world and that the world within that world there were these sort of wildly flamboyant gay men that had sort of wonderful lives and things like that, which at the time, I didn't understand really at all. Um [00:17:00] So I, I think in that period, because the whole gay liberation thing fed into feminism or of feminism and all sorts of other things to do with racial equality and things like that. There was a whole kind of lift in the, I suppose, and it was just part of this great big explosion. Really what I think of it. And what about, uh, the difference between constructing a film and and writing? [00:17:30] What? What what were the differences from there? As time went on, I felt the the the difference is becoming bigger and bigger. Really. Writing is a lovely, solitary dream world in which you control absolutely everything. Um, and film is by its nature collaborative. And you can only ever do one small part of it. So they're very ultimately they're tremendously different, [00:18:00] really? So that with writing, you can do everything to a degree. I mean, you can't print the books, but you can create a whole world, whereas with film, all you can hope to do is is do one part of it, and then you enter this sort of negotiation to make it happen. And I think in a way, probably why I left filmmaking in the end was because the the negotiation to make things happen was so lengthy, so sapping, so exhausting that it it didn't seem worthwhile [00:18:30] As a creative person, I just wanted to keep producing and not be sort of stalled in a in a kind of nego endless negotiation to get things done. Having said that, I I also enjoyed the collaborative process enormously, you know, And, um, like when I made, um, Jules Dial and the about face series, I consciously chose Anne Kennedy's story about the day in the life of a sort of transsexual because I knew [00:19:00] it would outrage people. I knew it would annoy people enormously. Um, and, um, it was a It was a It was a deliberate decision of mine to actually make something that that, um, that would would flout the rules of television and everything at that time. And you see, if you look at it, it's 1985 and it was made within the kind of that period of the homosexual law reform. Um, [00:19:30] aids had just was had really just started exploding everywhere. And, um, it was, uh, made for television and for the cinema. But it was made. I felt expressly to I don't know, it would be a disruptive sort of narrative. Really? Um, how easy was it to make something like that when you've got such a politically charged atmosphere? Um, well, it was we [00:20:00] were very lucky, really, In that it was produced by Bridget I and, um, within a kind of, um, an area that television allowed. They had this tiny little area for independent production where they sort of, you know, allowed you to actually do something. And so they farmed out these sort of, um I don't think six dramas, um and we all took one each. And, um, they were low budget dramas. [00:20:30] They were a big step up. I had only made two short films before that, um, one was 11 minutes and one was 17 minutes and was, like a half hour of drama. And it's a sort of a hugely big jump, funnily enough to make a half hour drama, and it seemed to be very well received. It was a sort of a It was beautifully shot. I must say. It was very beautifully shot by Stuart Dr who went on to be a, you know, major kind of international cinematographer. [00:21:00] And it was the first time. One of the things about the Jules darlin this whole series was people were given a chance to change their classification within the film industry. So, you know. So I became a director, and people like, um, Stuart Dr who who really had been AAA lighting person up until that time became a cinematographer. So it was a chance for people to try to sort of upskill in a way. And what was that, like [00:21:30] being your first directing role? Piing overwhelming. Um, wonderful. It was all done in a studio, apart from things that we did outside. Um and, um I mean, we did some a cinema complex which was deliberately down there because it was so tacky. Um, it was very, you know, it was very exciting. I was very much under the influence of, too, at that stage. So it was very beautiful to look at and, um, [00:22:00] sort of artificial. And, um, it's still a very beautiful film. And if I see it, I think I still think that it's an amazing looking film. Really. I think, um, I recall Georgina by saying there was a a point when you were filming where there was actually a was a Salvation Army march going down Queen Street. That's right. Yes. And so you're actually able to tie in reality? Yes, that's right. We we waited in a doorway, and the Salvation Army at that [00:22:30] at that stage were collecting. It was that terrible time where they went door to door collecting signatures against the homosexual law reform. And, um so they were leading the campaign really against homosexual law reform. So they had a march down Queen Street with a band leading them and Georgina and the film crew had on the doorway. And as they marched down the street, we run out into front of the, um, March and Georgina and some of the other characters from the film sort of led the march down Queen Street. Much to the chagrin, [00:23:00] The Salvation Army? Yes. Is there any difference? Do you think in making something for television as opposed to making something that will be screened on a large cinema screen? Um, I think we were all cinema snobs. Really. We always thought cinema the cinema was a superior medium, you know, and shocked if we were shooting something for television, we always shot it as if it was for cinema. [00:23:30] Um, so it was always kind of, you know, it wasn't just, um, shots of kids head and shoulder shots, which television tends to be. So we tried. When we were shooting for television. We tried to make it as cinematic as possible. And that's certainly true for a death in the family. Also, what about in terms of how an audience receives the moving image? Is it different? Do you think seeing something on TV than, um [00:24:00] well, we we live now in a period in which cable television from America is presenting narratives which are more complex than they're almost in cinema at the moment. So, um, I don't sort of buy into that idea so much that that you have to sort of simplify things for television or popularise things to for a television audience or anything like that. I think you can if if you choose to, you can make [00:24:30] it as complex as you want it to for television, just as you would for a cinema. Really, I know it's a big ask, but, um, you mentioned a death in the family, which was I think it was 1986 and that was with Stuart May. So I was just wondering, can you talk to me a little bit about kind of collaborative relationship that you had? Um, really, all the films I made, um um were in association with Stuart. [00:25:00] Um, I don't know whether looking back up was a particularly good idea to actually live with someone and to work with someone in such an intense medium. Because it in a way, it has a sort of a claustrophobic sort of cell, like, um thing. But we certainly worked together and had a very creative, um, partnership in film. Um, where we, um, just worked very closely together, Um, [00:25:30] in a death in the family. Um, we were co directors, I think on that, um, and it was a huge support to be working with someone who was stoic and quite strong when we were consciously pushing the envelope on on many different levels. So it was great to actually be with someone It would have been. I would have found it very isolating [00:26:00] if I was just doing it on my own. So it was a kind of almost unnecessary partnership, in a way, um and the death in the family was all just like, um, Joel style was made both for cinema and for television, and the funding came. I think it was 50% from television and 50% from the film commission. I can't remember, but it was a sort of an equal thing. So it had a life as a 16 millimetre film. Um, [00:26:30] believe it or not, around the world and as a as a television film as well. Um, And it it I mean, by that stage in 1986 the whole HIV AIDS thing was sort of overwhelming the world there was at that stage, there was no, um you know, if you got HIV, you died. Really? Um, it was a very dark and ominous sort of period, really. And, um, death in the family [00:27:00] generally around the world was seen as a sort of AAA film, which told the story from the point of view of the, um, gay characters in the in the narrator rather than an early frost. And there were several other major sort of films of that period, most of which tended to frame the film almost entirely from the sort of heterosexual point of view. Um, [00:27:30] so it seemed to sort of hit a spot as, um as an attempt to give some idea of what it was like for a group of gay friends to look after another friend. Um, and, um, we went we went to America with that film. Um, in Australia. It was very well received in its period. It really was. It's hard for me, um, looking [00:28:00] back now, And, you know, we're 30 years since HIV AIDS was kind of first talked about to actually get a sense of what it was like to be right there, you know, five years into it. Well, it was terrible because, you know, we had the high excitement of, um, gay liberation, and I think white talks about it. You know, it was this thing of a sort of immense excitement to be followed by this absolutely terrible, um, you know, [00:28:30] a terrible period. Really. It was a very I think it was a very tough period. A very, very tough period, really. What was it like to make a film when you know when When the outcome at the time for people with HIV a I was a very it. It was, um at the time, [00:29:00] it felt to be a good thing that we were doing. And certainly the crew was very involved in it. And, of course, subsequent to that, my own brother Russell, got HIV and subsequently died. And I was placed in a very peculiar kind of an emotionally exposed position. I think because I've made a film about a death in the family and then lo and behold, you know, within a year or so, um, I also had a death in the family. And in a way, my own experience was, um, [00:29:30] necessarily different to the one portrayed in the film, I suppose, um, it Russell's death sort of changed my life. I think I think it was in all those moments of great crisis. You try and decide about what you really want to do in life. And at that point I began to think I really didn't want to do too much film anymore. I really wanted to become a writer. It was time I actually sat down and became did [00:30:00] what I really wanted to do in life. So really, it was a marking of a, um diverging of the paths between Stuart and me in terms of film and fiction and nonfiction and things like that, and and I became began to write and earnest and really desperate. Um, good intentions was a film I was made. It was one of the few times in my life where where I'd actually been approached to make a film, all these other films we I pushed for and [00:30:30] sort of created through pushing for them where Good intentions Channel four got in touch and said, Would I like to make a little postcard that they could show on Channel four, which was the loveliest sort of gift, you know? So so I made good intentions, which is a delightful little film. I don't think it's three or four minutes long, and it's just a little wee thing, which I made, which was very sweet and really desperate remedies. I wrote for Stewart as a passing sort of gift of our relationship and our our, [00:31:00] um, our working relationship. And it was written expressly to, um, launch Stewart as as a director. Um, and he always had this. I could never get to the bottom of it. He always had this thing where he wouldn't do public relations. He wouldn't give interviews and things like that. So I was always the person who fronted like a death in the family, which we actually [00:31:30] co directed. So everyone always thought I was the, um the the sort of creative heart of the film, Really? Whereas an where as an actual fact, we had always co directed, um And so in 1993 when we did desperate remedies, it was a thing in which I sort of cod directed with Stuart because that was what the funding people wanted, um, and insisted on because they thought I was the creative sort of, you know, person in the relationship. And, um [00:32:00] but really, it was to sort of launch um, Stuart as a director and we had a sort of wild time with us. It was pretty amazing Run with that. And yes, yeah, it it It had its own kind of mad following. And when I see it now, I still think it looks incredible. And it still makes me laugh because it's so outrageously [00:32:30] camp. It's just so outrageously camp. It's that's kind of wonderful. And, um, no, it's a fantastic kind of piece of artifice, I think. Do you often go back and and and view? No, no, not at all. Never really. But for some reason, I don't know whether it's Cliff Curtis. It seemed to be on Maori television quite a lot, Um, and certainly Cliff Curtis. And it is absolutely fantastic. That was his first major role. Really? [00:33:00] Um, and you know, So it was that nice thing where you were not expecting to see something, and then suddenly something's on on television and you watch a bit of it. And you think, Oh, my God, it's not so bad after all, just a year or so earlier. You, you you released dangerous desires. The short story. So that sort of established me as a writer. Um, and that was a really quite successful book. And I won the New Zealand Book Award, and it [00:33:30] sold in America and England. And it was a time in which sort of gay or queer fiction was particularly strong. So it came out and probably a very good time, I think. True. Um, so then we move on to one of them, which was made from a novella really from my first book, which I wrote, also made and wrote the screenplay for the Stewart to, um, direct, which was also an attempt to sort of push him out into [00:34:00] the world of a director. Is that the the kind of process that you follow in terms of, you know, writing, say, a novella, then turning it into a screenplay. The No, not consciously, No, not consciously really at all. Um, it just so happened that two novellas from my first book were made into films, which was sort of wonderful. Um, in a way, um, I think with my first book, I suppose what was there was all the stories I wanted to tell all my life went on to that, [00:34:30] you know? So perhaps they struck a chord because of that. It had a whole lifetime proceeding out the force and energy of that going into the book, I think. Can you compare your, um, written language with your visual language? Um, well, interestingly enough, when my book came out, all the critics said that that they were very similar and that they were both sort of ornate and highly visual, and it showed, you know, the book showed I was a filmmaker and everything like [00:35:00] that, which to me really seem slightly surprising. Um, although I have always been a highly visually tuned person and you know, when uh, one of the questions you asked me is what drew you to film, and I III I have actually written about that whole thing and and really, it is that as New Zealanders, we all grew up with this immense power of cinema. You know, it was the thing. We were such an isolated country, Um, earlier on and yet we [00:35:30] had if you went into your local cinema, you saw these kind of staggeringly amazing visual spectacles, you know, or sometimes huge sophistication. So of course they blew your socks off, you know? And of course, it seemed, um, an absolute dream that you could actually make a film. You know, it just seemed this extraordinary thing that you you yourself could try and make a film, you know, and make your own myths and things in the, uh, late nineties or in 1997 [00:36:00] you put out an anthology of gay New Zealand writing and there were blank pages in the book Can you tell me about that? Yes. Well, you know, by now we're 1997. So we're a long way into, um So it's what, 11 years after the homosexual law reform Bill and Rex Pilgrim and I decided we'd put together this anthology of gay writing, and we approached various states [00:36:30] of well known historical writers who we knew were gay or had been gay. And really, it was part of the sort of strangeness of the period, I suppose, is that a lot of them were most of their estates were actually controlled by straight men who was obviously sympathetic to the the the the person who, you know, they were great friends with whoever it was [00:37:00] as the state they were managing. But it was their idea that you actually protected the person from the sort of dishonour of of being known as gay so that at that stage, nobody really knew Frank Sarge was gay publicly, you know, it wasn't known. It was just that he'd written these strange, enigmatic stories. Um, the whole that jack dug. And, um, you know, these sort of strange things. So [00:37:30] it was all very coded and kept behind the scenes. So basically, with, um, about four of these form important writers, um, we weren't allowed to use their writing, so we the way we expressed this form of censorship was to just put their name at the top of the page and leave the page blank. And so it seemed extraordinary, so late in the piece that we were still facing [00:38:00] this sort of real timidity, Really. And a real misunderstanding of what we thought we were doing was directing younger readers to the existence of these people. So, in a way, we thought we were keeping their work alive. You know where the people looking after their estates? I don't know what they thought. I think they thought we were dishonouring them. And, you know, it was the same. True of the cover image that was used. Yes. Yes, that [00:38:30] was a peculiar thing, too, because we came across this very, very beautiful Winkleman photograph of, um, him yachting and in the harbour and kissing quite a love. It's a beautiful, beautiful image. Really. And, um, Rodney Wilson, who was then the director of the Auckland Museum, refused to give us permission to use it, which was extraordinary. And once [00:39:00] again, you know, looking back, it was a real misunderstanding of what was involved. He was worried because the man being kissed was a of the Wilson and Horton family, you know, very wealthy publishing family and were great friends of the museum and gave money to the museum. And he thought it would offend the Hortons. I don't think he ever asked them. So he acted proactively and, um, thought he was protecting them. You know, um, [00:39:30] and he just said we couldn't use it at all. Um, and I don't know, looking back, it's pretty amazing. We just went ahead and used it anyway. And it is a very beautiful book. Still, I think when I look at, I think it's a very fine book. Those kind of situations Do they shape the way that you want your creative legacy dealt with? Um, it certainly makes you aware of the ambiguities [00:40:00] that can can crop up. Um, I don't foresee any problems in my own, um, writing? I don't know. Yeah, II, I guess, For example, like, I mean, would you be wanting to donate like, diaries or to archives? And would you have any stipulations, you can access some things I would [00:40:30] just to protect other people. Really? II. I mean, I think something like a time lag 10, 20 years or something like that is quite useful, really, In terms of protecting other people. And, um, from essentially personal information, I think. Hm. In the early two thousands, you did still do a number of, uh, moving [00:41:00] image works, and one was the Georgie Girl documentary. Now, what was it like to work with her again? Um, it was it was very difficult. Really. Um, I'd known Georgie when she was, um, of course. You know, when we did, um, about and at that stage, she was a performing artist at, um, a little gay nightclub on Queen [00:41:30] Street. She was in a sort of an underworld. Um, And then, of course, she subsequently emerged into this sort of phenomenon of the, um, the first transgendered person to become a member of parliament. Which is what caught Annie Golden's eye, who was a co-director with Georgie girl. And and he got in touch with me because she knew I had worked closely with Georgina and knew Georgina well, And she was a friend of mine and is a friend of mine. [00:42:00] Um, so I became the, um co-director on it. We structured Gina at a period in which she was becoming disillusioned with being being an MP. She'd become aware, really, of how, um, onerous. It really was on her personal life. She was teeing on the point of, um, of throwing the whole thing in at the point we were making the film, so she was very ambiguous about [00:42:30] us. Um, you know, uh, following her around. So she was often touchy and bad tempered and things like that. It wasn't an easy film to make at all. Um, and, uh, and he shaped a sort of triumphant test documentary out of it, which, in a way, was not really the reality of the story which subsequently emerged. You know, that Georgina [00:43:00] really didn't feel at home in that world at all. Completely understandably, Parliament's a horrible place. Um, it was it was a very interesting experience. And the whole documentary was sort of grounded on a long. The narrative line of the documentary was based on a long, long interview I had with Georgina, um, which was a a very interesting experience, and at the time, and he thought she'd make the whole documentary based [00:43:30] on the narrative line of the interview I did with Georgina. But subsequently that didn't, um, transpire. Um, it was, I mean, it became a wildly successful documentary, you know, which was wonderful. And I think it's triumphant as sort of take was part of it being so wildly successful. Um, but as we subsequently know, [00:44:00] I mean, I've often thought it would be. Now would be an interesting time to actually talk to Georgina about what she thinks of the whole the whole experience that she went through, not not in the film, but of being an MP and stuff like that because it must have been such a strange experience, really. Because on one hand, she was. So she was that really imprisoning and difficult thing of being a role model, which I think is such [00:44:30] an ambiguous position to be in. But she was a role model within a Labour government that really didn't want her to push too far, because by that stage with Helen Clark, there was such a strong identification of, um of of, uh of sort of homosexuality with the Labour government that they really didn't want Georgina to push for transgender rights. And And I think Georgina [00:45:00] found the whole foreshore, um, kind of, um, dispute incredibly difficult for her as a as a, you know, as a Maori woman. She found it, I think heartbreaking because she was being pulled in all these different directions and also not really being allowed to do what she really wanted to do, which was to push for transgender rights, you know? So, I, I think it was I think you could probably have a very interesting, very candid [00:45:30] conversation with Georgina now, about the real politic of of that period. I don't think the film covers the real politic. I think it hints at it at times, but it that wasn't its narrative. Around the same time, you did a very personal film with Jonathan Dennis, who was one of the founders of the New Zealand Film Archive, and it was as he was dying of cancer. What was that like to [00:46:00] film someone so close to you? Well, you know, it was very, very awkward, and I don't know whether looking back, I should have just said no. Really because he asked me to do it. Um, I was staying at his house, and he sort of asked me to sort of crack on the sort of his final days. Um and, um, I haven't looked at it. [00:46:30] I must say, for a long time. I don't know what I think. If I looked at it now, it was a, um Both are moving in a desperately sad period. Really? I think you know, he was a wonderful as you. As you get older, one death unlocks all all other deaths. [00:47:00] You know, it unlocked a great sense of unhappiness about my brother's death. Um, I don't know what I think. If I saw it now, I, I hope I like it. I tried to treat the whole thing with respect, and, um, I tried to give a sense of the way he was looked after. So Well, yeah, True. And also his sort of [00:47:30] amazing personality. Really? How do you balance the kind of professional filmmaker and you wanting to get shots and also also being part of the experience? Um, I think it's something you, um I. I think all artists are red in tooth and claw. as as as as some sort of on some fundamental level. All [00:48:00] artists are devouring cold hearted monsters to a degree. Um, and that's something you live with and relate to or try and balance. Um, I think, um, aware at the same time of all your own frailties and, um, you know, failures and humanity and things like that. Mhm. [00:48:30] We're now in the Internet age, And, uh, many of your productions are now online. Um, how do you feel about, uh, people now the world over can see your work from from the eighties? Yes. I don't know what I feel about it. Really, I partly because the world it's like the whole world is cluttered that, you know, [00:49:00] we live in a primarily visual age. Um, and and it's sort of as if the whole world is cluttered with stuff. Yet at the same time, I, I myself like being able to sit at my computer and access all sorts of things globally. So So I like that. You know what I mean? I. I value the fact that you can access things. Really? That does seem incredible. Do you think you'll come back to film? Um I would like to. Yes, I would like to. [00:49:30] Yes, I. I will see how that goes, though I'm very at ease in writing, I must say, um, there's something about the philosophical quiet or whatever of writing that that appeals to me. No. I think one of one of the things that I I do find quite interesting as a writer is the transition from being seen as primarily a gay writer, which I was always called. You know, I was the [00:50:00] first gay writer in New Zealand, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Um, to trying to establish that I wasn't just I wasn't just a gay writer because I felt after a certain amount of time, I was being pigeonholed as that. And that's all I kind of was. You know, that's all I could do sort of thing. And I felt restless under that, um, the containment of that, um, [00:50:30] hanging out I. I suppose the whole experience of being homosexual to absence of a better term is that is that it changes all the time being homo being loving, being same sex, interested or whatever like that. It changes all the time. It changes. According to the period you're living in. But it also changes according to your own age, you know? And, um, so you're always sort of redefining it, Really? And I mean, of course, it will just go [00:51:00] on forever, won't it? You know, the the whole nature of it will just change and change and change. And, you know, when one thinks of how enormously it's changed, even in our lifetime Um so, in a way, when I became this sort of thing, the gay writer, you know, the gay writer of New Zealand, as if there was only one person I. I sort of felt restless under that, and I wanted to change that. So I consciously went about, um, trying to dispel or break that sort of one identification. [00:51:30] And, um subsequently, like with, um uh the hungry heart, the book I wrote on William Colino, the historical character I. I wrote that, um uh, in one part of it, I talk about con consciously talk about the whole, um, thing of trying to elude this thing. I've always been called a gay writer and, um, frame the narrative in terms of that as a dilemma. So I acknowledge [00:52:00] it. Um, But I also presented a book in which the sort of the gay narrative, um, wasn't the predominant one. So I tried to dispel that, um, thing that that's all I could do. It was sort of like I'm not just a one trick pony, you know, I can actually do all these other things. And, um, just as people like to And, um, you know, Alan has and people like that can can do these sort of [00:52:30] complex narratives which are more than the word gay writer might seem to, um, and play. It's it's interesting, because, I mean, that seems to happen a lot. You know, I'm thinking of, um, Grant Robertson, who was standing for the Labour Party leadership. And, you know, one of the narrative storylines was he, you know, is New Zealand ready for a gay prime minister? And then I remember Georgina by saying, you know, she was known as the world's first [00:53:00] trans member of Parliament, Not the fact that she was actually a good member of Parliament. Yes, which she was. Actually, I think she was very popular in the way or as a good MP. I mean it. It It is an interesting thing. I mean, at the moment. One of the projects I'm doing is I'm looking at a series of family letters that exist in my mother's family, and they're all No. One is notable at [00:53:30] all. No one is important. No one was a general or anything like that. They're essentially just letters from family members, one to the other. And I'm just sort of framing them in the historical period that they were written in and explaining a little bit about the background to them and who wrote them and things like that. And that tapestry of letters comes right down to a letter that I wrote to my mother and father when I was in England, right, which was a sort of a classic coming out letter. Um, [00:54:00] and, um, my mother saved it amazingly, and she gave it to me relatively recently and she said, Look, I want you to have this. It's such a moving letter and da da, da da and things like that, which absolutely amazed me because I remember so vividly. When she got the letter, she wrote back to me instant and said, Thank God I got to the letter box first and got that terrible letter you wrote and that your father didn't see it, you know, it would kill him to read that letter. [00:54:30] You must never write a letter like that again. And you know what I mean? The her actual response to it at the time was completely different. So, um, so the the narrative goes on, you know how you treat these things and being homosexual or whatever you call it. There's always a part of the way you see the world. Um, you know, I think even if it's not foregrounded, [00:55:00] that's still there in a way that you see the world, I think so. Sure motions.

IRN: 745
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089549
TITLE: Tony Smith profile
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VOICES: Tony Smith
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2000s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Napier; Napier Operatic Society; Rule Foundation; Tony Smith; Wellington; ageing; arts; children; church; coming out; creativity; food; friends; gay; guilt; humanism; labels; language; marriage; media; older age; politics; relationships; school; sex; sexuality; stereotypes; straight; teaching; theatre; travel; visual arts
DATE: 5 October 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Napier, Napier, Hawkes Bay
CONTEXT: In this podcast Tony talks about being married with children and then coming out in his 50s.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, my name is Tony, and, uh, I am in my very late fifties, I grew up in the Hutt Valley near Wellington. Um, fairly standard childhood. I would think I had two parents. Her father was a civil servant. Mother worked part time. Uh, I have two younger sisters, and, um, I think our lives were very typical of the time. Um, this was largely before television. So much of our early childhood involved around, uh, playing [00:00:30] up in the western hills where we lived in the bush in the streams. Um, I think we probably had quite a lot of freedom, actually, Um, safety wasn't really an issue. We used to go off through Bush tracks and so on. So I think we had a very good childhood and a very privileged childhood in some ways. Yeah. Yeah. Can you describe your family? Um, I would think my family would be very typical of of, uh, a family at the time. My father, uh, worked full time, and when he came [00:01:00] home, he did what he wished to do. The hobbies and things that he had. My mother worked part time. Um, so there was quite a strong and traditional division of Labour. I would think, um, Mum did all the housework and the child rearing, and my father brought home the money. So, uh, we did a lot of things as a family. Uh, but things like, um, coming to school events to interviews to to scout groups and things like that. Um, whenever meetings were on, that was my mother's role. [00:01:30] I guess so. They were very traditional roles, I would think. Compared with now, can you describe the time in terms of, you know, Was it liberal? Was it conservative? Was it traditional? Well, when you're living it, you don't know because you've got nothing else to compare it with. Um, looking back, it would be, uh, traditional and, uh, the last part. I think of conservatism following on from the war when I was born. You know, the war had only ended eight years earlier. [00:02:00] Um, I understand there was still actually rationing for some things when I was born. Um, looking back on it, it was conservative family roles. The way that people lived and the things you did. We all went to Sunday school, for example, those sorts of things that one did, But at the time, it was a good childhood. And those were the Those were the mores and the norms that we grew up with as a child. Did you have any idea about kind of homosexuality? No, not at all. Um, I don't [00:02:30] think as a concept homosexuality or gayness existed even when I was at secondary school. Um, I don't recall ever there were being conversations whatsoever. Um, the biggest warning were about maybe dirty old men who lure Children into cars. Um, but beyond that, no. So that didn't exist. Gayness. I don't think existed as a concept. And what about as a concept for yourself? When [00:03:00] did gayness kind of come across your radar? Uh, not until I was probably in my fifties. Uh, no, it didn't exist as a concept. Not at all. No. So therefore, I went through, um, secondary school with no hassles or anything like that, uh, into teachers college, Uh, became a teacher, travelled overseas and so on. Married had Children. I have grandchildren. Um, so that didn't exist as a concept? No, not at all. So what happened in the fifties [00:03:30] in your fifties? Um uh, I became increasingly um, isolated, Lonely in my marriage. Um, and, uh, being lonely in a marriage is very self-destructing. And, uh, I was doing more and more things on my own. Um, I was at a business conference in Auckland, and I thought, I wonder what it's like to have sex with a man, Have [00:04:00] never having had sex with a man at all. And, um, had a look in in the, you know, the personal column in the paper. And there were several there, and I took a gamble and phoned up, and that was an extraordinary sensation. That was really quite amazing. And, um, from there I am now an out gay man. So can you try and explain to me how do you go from having had no kind of thought about kind of homosexuality to saying I want to have [00:04:30] sex with a man? How How does that work? Um, I'm not certain that I can. I I'm not certain that I can explain it. Really. Um, what I did know was that the second time that I had sex with a man I knew then that my marriage was in danger. Uh, this was something, uh, strong It was powerful. It was lustful. It was something that I had never experienced before. And it just was mind boggling. Um um [00:05:00] and I knew. Yeah, I knew then that my marriage was in danger and I continued for another two years, in essence, having affairs and so on. With men behind my wife's back, they family never suspected anything at all For about two years until literally I came out as a as a gay man and said that this had gone on. Can you describe for me what the feeling was like, um, after that first experience? Yeah, Uh, just extraordinary. Just [00:05:30] amazing. Like nothing I had ever experienced before. Um uh, the the if you're talking about straight sex, it was strong. It was lustful. It was It was, um it was incredible. Just amazing. And then when this this gentleman left, I thought, Wow, this is something that I had never experienced, nor had any anticipation of that it would end up like this again. Um um, it was [00:06:00] incredible. Um, what was most amazing is actually not just meeting the man and and having the sex with the man was the absolute heightened sense of anticipation beforehand of knowing that this person was going to arrive in an hour's time or something, and and of showering and of putting on the clean clothes and things like that. That was just amazing. That was just incredible. Right down to literally, when the knock on the door came, that was that was that heightened sense of excitement, [00:06:30] of anticipation was incredible. Just wonderful. Yes, After that first experience, how did it change your identity? Did it make you question who you were? No, Uh, II, I think. I think to me we are all a sum of a whole number of components and, uh, of one of those only as sexuality. And I'm always reluctant to [00:07:00] to, uh, to pigeonhole people according to their sexuality. I don't pigeon hole friends because, um, they're Anglican or Presbyterian, and I think we are all a sum of a whole lot of pieces that make us who we are. And so to me, when one changes and I'm using that word hesitantly one sexuality, um, you are still the same person. In essence, maybe you are adding to who you are. As we go [00:07:30] through life. We have experiences that add on to make you more of who you are. And it could well be that by coming out as a gay man, I came closer to whom I I really am than I was before. So do you believe that we are whole and it's basically a discovery. So you were always gay. There was always a part of you that was gay, but it's just II. I would have to say [00:08:00] yes, that's probably right if you're doing if you're reading, that's probably the case. But certainly I wasn't aware of it. And, um, other men that I've met in a similar age of a similar age who maybe have been married as well. Um, most of those, in fact, all of those knew that they were gay men or suppressed very much. So. I have friends who also have Children. They knew when they married that they were gay men, but they played, uh, a A facade, a show of, of, [00:08:30] of being normal and inverted commas it to put on this front. Um, I certainly didn't marry knowing that or or having family. I didn't know that. So my discovery was much, much later than for most people. You mentioned coming out? Yes. What? What did that mean for you? Uh, it meant facing the music. At some point, you've got to say you have to tell people that this is who you are that this has gone on. So the first person [00:09:00] I told was my wife, um, she was amazing. Her reaction was one of of confusion. I guess would be a word that I would use that this was the person that she loved, that we'd been married for 27 years now, saying that that something had changed. Uh, I felt tremendous guilt, tremendous guilt, um, about cheating behind her back and about the fact that, in essence, [00:09:30] that their marriage had ended. Um uh, and And my wife went through the stages that people do. Perhaps when there is a loss. And she was losing her, her husband and her partner, the father of her Children and her security. I'd had two years to think of where I was up to that point and and and suddenly my wife then was having to come on board and to catch up. And it's a credit to her that [00:10:00] she has been able to do that. So there was a loss, uh, on on her part and anger, uh, for a short period, Um uh And then And then that passed. I went through that weekend when I had told my wife I went through to see my elderly parents who lived beyond this area and told them everything. Uh, and that was absolutely fine. I was reading that, you know, the catastrophizing all the way [00:10:30] through to telling them. But actually, it wasn't an issue in the end. Um, and neither was it. When in fact, I told my Children nor my friends as well that simply was a was a non issue. I was very fortunate. The people around me, I'm very blessed, actually. Yeah. Can you talk a wee bit more about that whole process of having to front up to people and say this is this is fine, because, I mean, if it if it's never been in your kind of past [00:11:00] in the last 40 50 years, how do you even start those conversations? Um, I think there's not much point rehearsing them, because if you rehearse them and rehearse them, it never sounds right. Anyway, literally I think you just blurt out when I told my wife, um, I came home from work one Friday and, um and she was already home and she said, How was your day? And I burst into tears and told her everything. I knew that at some point I was going to tell her, but I certainly hadn't planned to do it that day. So actually, the spontaneity of it was [00:11:30] quite cathartic. From that point of view, once, once the process had started, then you had to keep going. I had spoken to some, uh, to some other gay men who said that they their their recommendation was to keep it a secret from from people and from their families. Um, but I thought for me, I wasn't prepared to do that because what I'm doing then is I'm I'm taking them. I'm taking them for a ride that they don't deserve. So, um, I, uh I told [00:12:00] my Children and that was very interesting. My eldest daughter was in her early twenties and, uh, at university, and, um her reaction was one of love, and she didn't care. And she always suspected that I was a gay man. which was most interesting. Um, my second daughter, who's a bit left field, was excited. She was delighted to have a gay father because other people just had boring fathers who mow lawns and watch rugby and drink beer. And she [00:12:30] had a gay father and she was doing a creative arts course. And she couldn't wait to get back to the course on Monday to tell everybody else, because that gave her quite a bit of kudos. Actually, my son was 18, and he's perhaps the one that concerned me the most, uh, being AAA young, a young man himself, and he couldn't give a shit. He didn't really give us stuff at all. They just got on with it. I'm still their father. They the I'm the person they love. Uh, we have all have respect for one another, and it actually didn't change. You know, it didn't. [00:13:00] And that's been it's been like that with all our friends. When when we told all our friends, um, you're not dumped by them. You're not ostracised by them. I was really amazed by that, because what you hear is that basically, you're sort of one step above or below a leper. And it wasn't like that at all. Even people that I work with, I was dreading telling people at work. Uh, but in the end, it's easier just to tell everybody. Um, because if you start [00:13:30] keeping secrets, people will find out somehow or other, Um, and nothing changed. You know, the world doesn't close and the hell doesn't freeze. Or, um, um over you're still the same person as you were. And if you have, If people have respect for you and you have respect for them, then the life just continues. It's like to me, it's no different from an author from somebody discovering a new author, and they go telling everybody about that it doesn't so what, [00:14:00] You know, just just get on with it. So, uh, so the coming out process and I'm a bit cynical of that term. Uh, for me, it was very straightforward and and no negative backlash at all. There were only with only one exception. Uh, everybody just carries on. No, as as it always has done, and that coming up process happened while you were living in in Napier? Yes. Yes, yes. Do you think living in a smaller centre as [00:14:30] opposed to, say Auckland or Wellington or Christchurch. I mean, is that does that help or hinder? Because, I mean, I wouldn't have thought it would have made any difference. When you are a family, a family with Children or a person where you live, the family and the friends and the colleagues and the work people around you are still the same. I could be in the middle of London where there's 19 million people and you still have the same 20 or 30 people who surround you. I don't actually think that makes any difference. I don't know because I can. [00:15:00] Only I can only voice my experience. From my point of view, living in in in a in a smaller city in New Zealand was not a disadvantage at all. My my friends are here. My family is here, so it wasn't a disadvantage at all. The only issue potentially was when I was exploring this was trying to find someone to talk to, to find out what was going on. There's no counselling service here. As far as I am aware, there was no groups here, so I I had no [00:15:30] chance to meet or to talk to another gay man. It took a wee bit of doing. And in fact, I spoke to someone, uh, in Wellington, uh, through a help line just to talk to them. And I found that really helpful. I wish perhaps I'd had access to that. Um, but in the end, that that wasn't an option. So what? What kind of language would you use to describe yourself? Um, the language you can use really probably is what [00:16:00] other people tell you, isn't it? And there could be a diverse range of people of language. I think I'm sincere. I'm caring, loving a person of integrity, a person who gives off their best, Um, and a person who people trust. I don't think being gay makes a difference [00:16:30] to that again. I think the gayness is just one more facet of who I who I am. I don't think that makes any difference whether whether you whether you're gay or whether you're a rugby player or a Presbyterian or a vegan to me, these are all just aspects of who we are. And that's why I'm sometimes a little cynical of the label gay. Why do we judge people by their sexuality. You know, years ago people were judged by the colour of their skin. We've got [00:17:00] a bit more sophisticated than that now. I don't think a person's sexuality defines who they are at all. It makes them who they are. But it's not. It's not the be all and end all. There's a lot. We're a lot more complex than just our sexuality. And you would use a word like gay as opposed to something like homosexual or queer or queer is not a very nice word. Um, I'm quite happy to use the term gay. I don't have a problem with that. Homosexual, to me [00:17:30] is is kind of a bit, uh, medical. So a gay? Yeah, I'm a gay man. I don't have a problem with that at all. It's quite a nice term, actually. Yeah, sales. What about the idea that, um, initially your contact was a physical male to male contact? That is. Or do you find it different from then actually going into say, like a relationship with a male? It's it's It's more than about a physical connection. It's it's it's This wasn't a relationship. [00:18:00] This was simply someone to try out to see what it was like having sex with a man there was, there wasn't There's no there's no relationship involved on on either part. Basically, you have an hour with this person. So no, we're not talking about building a relationship. A relationship comes or came for me later on. Uh, a relationship is when you show a a commitment to another person and vice versa. And you say, um, I would like to share some or all of my life with [00:18:30] you, and they do the same. And so from that point of view, I'm very fortunate. I. I have a partner who is younger than I am, Um, and we enjoy each other's company, uh, very much. And And I care for him a great deal, and he cares for me. We don't live together, Uh, mainly because I quite like my space. And also, um, the apartment here is too small for two people to live in. Really? So sometimes we're together. Sometimes we're separate. Um, however, I still have my [00:19:00] former life. Uh, my wife and I are still very good friends. She is still the person that I love. A great deal. Uh, and there's no resentment on my on my part. That was a waste of 27 years. Um, so we we still see each other a great deal. And in fact, um, last Saturday, my partner and my wife and I went out together and had dinner together at friends. And, uh, which is very funny because my partner and I actually stopped and picked my wife up. [00:19:30] So it's a bit of a scrap about which of them is going to sit in the back seat, but, you know, just bloody get on with it, and that's very funny. Uh, and I'm very fortunate. Um, last last Christmas, they each exchange exchanged Christmas presents together. That's pretty remarkable. I think, um, for for two people who are part of my life, I think it's wonderful. Um, and then sometimes I will do something, and my wife will say, Oh, does he still do that? And then my partner will say yes, he does, And then the two of them start together. Um, so actually, [00:20:00] they're very good friends, So, uh, yeah, I'm very fortunate from that point of view. Uh, and certainly my relationship with my Children and my grandchildren hasn't changed whatsoever. You know, sometimes, uh, I, I do things with my family with my partner, and sometimes I do them without. He doesn't have to be involved in all aspects of my family and with his family. I think that that's that's quite reasonable. I don't want this to sound like a kind of a binary question, but I know that you you you've had experience of of both having [00:20:30] a married life with Children and also, uh, as a as a gay man. And I'm just wondering if you could kind of compare and contrast, what are the similarities and differences, Or, I mean, maybe I think there's a danger in that of of using stereotypes. Um, when I when I was married and I and I had a mortgage and a wife and Children and babies and things, that is a little different to now when, as an older man, I don't have those [00:21:00] responsibilities. And so there's a danger of sort of saying, Well, if you're a if you're a, uh, a non gay man, then you're you're busy, you know, mowing lawns on Saturday and cleaning the car and having a mortgage. And if you're a gay man, you can be out there having dinner because you've got more income and going off overseas and so on. I think that's a little unfair. Those sorts of of, um, stereotypes. And there's a danger with any stereotype of of maintaining what other people think of as the status [00:21:30] quo. Uh, I'm still very involved with my family. Uh uh, Really, to me, it hasn't actually changed that point of view, it has changed. It has given me a chance to meet people that maybe I would not have met before. And I think I'm very fortunate to do that just as people maybe join Rotary or something. And then they get to meet another group of people whom they may not have had contact with. It has given me an insight into, uh, a a group of men, [00:22:00] Um, that I probably would not have met before, and that's been quite insightful. Um, I guess if you're looking at stereotypes because many of the game you I know have not had Children, probably they have more money, so they are able to do things like travel, and, um, and and and eating out more and so on like that. Whereas when you're with a family in a more those things are are are harder. But I don't know, um, I don't know. That's necessarily [00:22:30] a sexual thing. It's just how how life is, isn't it? And I also know, you know, gay men who have Children, young Children as well, and and they're getting on with it. That doesn't make much difference. Maybe. Do you think that you're treated any differently now from by other people? Uh, no. I'm not treated any differently at all. I'm still the same person that I am. I've just added this one dimension to me, to me, to make me who I am. [00:23:00] There was, as I mentioned, there was one person who, uh seemed to be unable to accept the fact that that that I was a gay man and um wrote a letter saying that she didn't wish to have anything to do with me, that she never actually liked me anyway, that really she liked my wife, which was interesting. Um, I gave the letter to my wife and she was actually very angry and very hurt and and and and quite tearful, that somebody could feel like that when we thought that this person was [00:23:30] our friend. And as far as I'm aware, my wife doesn't actually have any communication with that person at all anymore. That was quite intriguing. Um, beyond that, No, no, I guess that kind of question came from I guess some people's sense that, you know, there is a bit of a kind of internalised homophobia within oneself thinking, Oh, I'm treated differently because of my homosexuality. Um, uh, if that's the [00:24:00] case, then that's not to me. That hasn't come across any more than, uh, I'm an Anglican. Am I treated any different to a, um, to a Presbyterian or II? I eat at a vegetarian restaurant and you eat at a Chinese restaurant. I don't see any difference. So, no, I've not been treated any differently at all. Uh, the only hesitation I would put there or the only comment I would make there is it may be it makes people sometimes in the company you're with, stop and think a little more about making AAA gay [00:24:30] joke, just as, uh, sometimes people say things about, say, Polynesian people or something. And maybe when they're in the company with those people. Hopefully they stop and they think before they speak because there are people there. Maybe, uh, who would take offence and it is not appropriate to And, uh, but certainly I've never had any any issues with that whatsoever? No, I've been very fortunate prior to coming out. What were your thoughts of gay people? [00:25:00] Um uh, I probably didn't tend to think about them a great deal at all. Um, I suppose my stereotype were of of gay men who were, um, who were perhaps a little self centred who perhaps were flamboyant. Um, you know, are you being served so that sort of stereotype that we look at on television Certainly it wouldn't have been of a married man with Children and grandchildren that that wouldn't have occurred. [00:25:30] Um, yeah. I'm wondering if you can talk about, um, ageing and some of the impacts of ageing. Um, what are some of the things that that you consider now in terms of ageing? If you talk about the difference between ageing as a gay man and ageing as a non gay man, I actually don't see any difference [00:26:00] at all. Apart from the fact that maybe, uh, there's an awful, awful lot of men who are my age who are turning into very old men very quickly who are boring. But I don't think that that's a gay thing. I think that that is the personality of the people. Uh, I don't I don't see any difference at all if you're talking about financial security. If you're talking about love, if you're talking about belonging to a community or a family or [00:26:30] to, um, organisations um, you could argue in some ways, being on one's own gives you greater flexibility and more chance to do those sorts of things. But I don't think that that's a sexual thing. Um, if I want to go and join a theatre group or a or a film society or something, I can do that, and I don't see that that is a sexual thing at all. I think we have to be very careful that we don't that that that that being gay overrides absolutely everything else [00:27:00] at all I. I don't liken it to that at all. When people initially when I came out and said to me, What's it like? And I struggled for an analogy. And then I thought, Imagine, you know, you fly to New York to go on holiday and you get taken to the hotel and you check in at the front desk and they give you a key. And it's room 16. 14, and you go up to the 16th floor, the door opens on the lift. You step out into this corridor with the Vulcan carpet, and then you got to decide, You know, you [00:27:30] got to look at the numbers. Are you gonna go left or straight ahead or to the right? And eventually you go along the labyrinth of corridors and you open the door and there, that's your room. That is where you belong. And then, uh, for me, the analogy is that what I've done now is that I've come back out of that room, gone down the corridor, back into the lift, and I've gone to a different floor. And now I've looked for another door and I've gone to a different room, and that's the place [00:28:00] where I am now. That's that's kind of That's the only analogy that I've really been able to give to other people is that you belong somewhere, but But it could be that you move places. How do you get that sense of liberation? Because I think for a lot of people, they would just be scared of, actually kind of leaving that room that they've known for 40 years and and finding somewhere else. I think you're on the earth once. Uh, there is no point regretting later [00:28:30] on, I wished I had done something. Whether it's travel or joining a church group or or taking up a new hobby or an interest or changing your job. You are the person who has to initiate that change. Yes, it can be scary. It can be bloody scary. Uh, and all I can say to other people is regardless of sexuality, is if you've got a dream, you get out there and you make it happen. If you want to change jobs, do the research. Think about it and you take responsibility and get out there [00:29:00] and make it change. If you are looking at your sexuality and and that has changed. But I'm putting that in inverters comments again. Um, I all I can say is, the longer you dwell on it, the worse it is once you are out there and you are who you are now not hiding behind this this screen, it's much easier. It's much easier. And and and, uh and I probably should have done that earlier. To be honest, [00:29:30] in a lot of what you've been saying on picking up things about kind of spirituality and kind of like a very holistic approach. And I'm just wondering, can you talk about, um, your beliefs in terms of spirituality or religion? Uh, I was reared in an Anglican house. Um, and you know, we went to Sunday school on on Sundays. Everybody did, and I was confirmed. But for me, at the moment, mainline religion probably doesn't hold a particular attraction. If [00:30:00] anything, I think I would probably call myself a humanist. And that is, uh, Humanists. Sort of say there's something out there controlling it, or there's some reason for it. I don't understand it, Really. It's beyond my control. So get on with life. If you want to do things, it is up to you to make them happen. Uh, this is not going to come from divine intervention. Um, he's too busy somewhere else. Looking after Obama or something like that. Um, so just get on there. Uh, yeah, I think it's probably a humanist. [00:30:30] Take it. Take responsibility for yourself, and you make it happen. You mentioned just before about, um some people that you know are just becoming boring in terms of getting older and and you get boring as you get as you age. How do you How do you stop? How do you stop that process? Um, by by saying Shit, I actually even got, you know, I've only got another 35 years left and there's so much to do, I want to I want to learn [00:31:00] a new language. I want to do some more travel I want to do. I would love to learn some music. I want to dance, Um, by by By adding to those things that you already are to make you even more of of around a person of who you are and getting out there and doing it, you know, go and take yourself off to Asian cooking classes and something rather than saying Well, actually, I'm 60 now and it's time to start slowing down. I actually think the opposite. I think it's time to start [00:31:30] doing things because you've got a bit of time now and you've got money and you can be a little bit irresponsible, can't you? You can just lock the door here and you can go away for a weekend and, you know, and you don't have to worry about the lawns or the cats or those sorts of things or cleaning the car. Yeah, just do it. Hell, yeah. Absolutely. Yes. That's why I'm going out this afternoon. Yeah. So what are some of your other interests? What? What are you into? Probably the visual arts. Uh, I was a teacher of art and design for many years here in Napier. Um, so I do enjoy [00:32:00] the visual arts, um, architecture, painting and so on. I enjoy that, Uh, my own form of artwork is a wood cuts, and I would like to get back into that. I miss not doing some sort of creative art myself. Uh, I do enjoy the theatre. Food and wine, of course. Here in Hawke's Bay, why wouldn't you, um, travel Passionate traveller? Um, I've I've been very fortunate. Generally, I've been able to travel overseas just about every year. Um uh I would like to continue doing [00:32:30] that before they start charging you too much for insurances. You know, for the twilight tours when you're in the twilight of your life. Um, I would love to. Probably do a little bit of backpacking through some places again. We did it. My wife and I did that when we were young. And I would like to go back to some of those places, maybe to travel to India, for example. Um, I think that would be quite fun, but slightly more upmarket little hotels than what we stayed at before. Thank you. Yeah, like with a flushing toilet. Um, so [00:33:00] it's just about that you're only limited by your imagination, and there's no point sitting back and just get out there and make things happen. Yeah. Can you describe the room that we're in? Because this is this is this is this is your creation. It is, um, so we are in a listed building in Central Napier. Uh, this building that we're in was built as a hotel following the earthquake in 1931. I understand. The room that we're in was the kitchen for the hotel. Um, [00:33:30] and it it stopped being a hotel. I understand. In the early 19 sixties, I think this room then had a series of people through. But lastly, um, while I was here, it was a photographer's gallery. So the room we're in is a studio, and, um, basically, I gutted it. Took out the strong room, everything that was in the room, and, um, and have redecorated it. So at the top, as a decorative Scotia moulding and an art deco pattern, Um, with lights, [00:34:00] Art Deco, um, the windows that you see there are are listed, so they're unable to be altered. Um, and then the kitchen has gone in, and what I've done is I've paid homage to the original building here. That was a hotel, and it's kind of reflected in the kitchen that you see there, Um, and it's pretty over the top, um, black gloss and mirror a nightmare to keep clean, but it looks pretty showy, doesn't it? Um, And then there's a little library over behind us and [00:34:30] the shelves I made, um, from African rosewood. Um, and about the very time that I was making those at work, uh, getting those made at work There was a famine in this place in Africa, and you see the poor people there with one top pole and then a stick, and they're building themselves a house. And there I had African rosewood building a library, and I do feel slightly guilty. So when I'm rich, maybe I'll go and sponsor an African village or something, just to say Sorry, I've got your wood in my library. Um, so there's a lot of chrome in here. [00:35:00] There's a lot of Polish stainless steel, and there's an incredible amount of mirror, um, which is wonderful for egocentric people and imagery. There's the there are there are hundreds of images here. Well, yeah, it's fairly eclectic, so we've got Art Deco pictures on the wall. We have artwork here from an uncle of mine who was an artist in London. Um, next to that are some pages from an old Arab book that I bought when I was in Jordan at the beginning of the year to the left. Again, I see photographs [00:35:30] from um from Route 66 that I travelled on in America. There's a original record up there of tin tin. There's Roman coins. It's a bit of a muddle, really, isn't it? So what you do is you sort of go through phases and you take them down and you put some new ones up. Um, there's a wall hanging there. My sister, um, worked from Canada gaining inspiration from, uh, around Napier. There's a set of Fauna City plates there. It's pretty eclectic. Really. How would you describe your taste? Eclectic, [00:36:00] uh, slightly muddled and confused. But I don't mind. These are things around me that I enjoy. And then the corner are grandchildren's toys and things and that that that works for me. This is my home. Yeah, Yeah. Muddled, sort of slightly upmarket shop. Really Probably style. Yes. It must be wonderful, actually, coming home at the end of the day and and just being surrounded by by all of these wonderful visual treats but [00:36:30] aren't aren't most people anyway, when they go to their home, wherever that is or or your home is what you make of it, isn't it? I think it's probably more than just a building with windows and doors to meet your home. If you live in it, it takes on a bit of the soul of you and your personality. Um, And if this is my personality, then, um yeah, scary. [00:37:00] So coming from, uh, Wellington, uh, I want to know, Can you make me understand what it's like as a gay man in a provincial New Zealand city? That's a little tricky because I have never lived anywhere else as a gay man, so I have nothing to compare it with. The only comment that I would make that I probably do miss, is being part of maybe a group of of [00:37:30] gay men of similar ilk who are interested maybe in, uh, in not intellectualising in some sort of political association of being involved in a group that maybe is able to initiate some change that is able to, uh uh to to contact politicians. When you're in Wellington, you have a lot more access to those sorts of people. I would like to be part of a group that maybe is set up to assist other gay men and so on. [00:38:00] In the process that I have been through, there is nothing like that in in a small provincial in this provincial city that simply doesn't exist. Uh, so I miss that I miss that professional aspect of being a gay person here in in Hawke's Bay. What about in terms of gay media? Do you Do you get things like the Gay Express magazine? Or do you go on to gay NZ dot com and on websites and No, not [00:38:30] at all. No, no, I have I have done in the past, but I actually don't feel that I need that particularly anymore. I'm not particularly political. I'm not going to go out there wearing armbands and say in gay pride and all that. I don't feel I need to do that any more than I would want to go down the road saying that I'm an ageing Anglican. I don't I don't feel the need to do that for me. No, I'm too modest or too humble or yeah, I don't need to do that. [00:39:00] What do you think it's like for younger gay people in this area? Uh, the younger gay men that I've met, I think, uh, first of all, I admire them that that when they are young, they're prepared to step outside the norm and inverted commas and say, I'm a gay person and I'm getting on with my life. Uh, I think that does take some courage, but I think attitudes are changing again. Um, the biggest issue, I think, probably is the lack of a resource [00:39:30] for them to get information. Um, about being a gay person, that this those things simply don't exist in a big city. You have by sheer numbers, you will have people who step up who say, Let's put in a gay support group or a gay gay phone line or something. When you're in an area like this, that simply doesn't exist. The last thing I think, though, that young gay men need or gay people need are old people telling them what to do [00:40:00] or how they should be acting or so on. I'm not certain that they need that I. I don't think they need that. They I think they're capable within their own group. And now with the Internet of of getting themselves sorted out. And so, uh, I think they're probably, from that point of view, quite fortunate. I think I'm fortunate in the sense that I belong to a group of men who who didn't know or didn't admit to being gay, and they now have. I now have Children, as I've said and grandchildren. I think [00:40:30] probably there is quite a unique sociological, uh, study there waiting to be done on people like myself because the young gay men that I'm meeting, uh, will never have the chance or the privilege of having Children and grandchildren. Whereas I've had that. And there is a group of us who are moving through getting older. Now, um, that probably may not ever occur again because of societal changing attitudes and things. Um, and maybe [00:41:00] maybe I Maybe I should start a group and, you know, in this area for ageing gay men or something. Uh, I'm not sure I'm not certain, really, But I want to do more than potluck dinners with old people. Yeah. No, that's not me. Um, and I don't necessarily need to socialise with a lot of other gay people. I have a a wide mixture of people I socialise with. I don't want just to socialise with people because of their sexuality anymore than people who play rugby socialise with rugby. [00:41:30] People or nurses socialise with nurses. Uh, the the people who are around me that I socialise with have a wide range of personalities and interests and things. Um, and I think that's pretty healthy. How many gay people do you know in this region? Do I know? 0, um 20. It's, like 20. Yeah, um, socialise a little with them. Uh, I flattered with, uh, two of them, Three [00:42:00] of them in the past. Um, so relatively small community. Um, yeah, about, say, 20. Are there, um, any support groups or any kind of, um, fun groups that that that people join with the kind of the The main thing is, is the sexuality? Sure. As far as I'm aware, there's none. There was there was one group. Um, but they've kind of fizzled out. They fizzled out. I think the area simply is too small, and there's [00:42:30] not sufficient numbers of people. I liken it a bit too. Um, you know, you know the circles on the Olympic on the Olympic flag there's this group of, say, 20 people around me. I'm in that circle. And then there's another circle there, and there's about three or four people in that same circle that we know. But by the time you get to the next one over, I don't know who those people are, and occasionally you come across someone and they'll say, Oh, that's a gay person. Don't you know them? No, I don't, Um but there's no There's no groups here as far as I'm aware now [00:43:00] of of who had done to it or go to a movie or play sport or handbag tossing or whatever else. Um, no, I'm not aware of that. No. What are the best parts of living in Napier? The climate. Fantastic climate. Look at today. Outside. Look at there in the garden there. Uh, the the relative ease of getting around, you know, we can We can drive from here within 20 minutes. We could go to three or four different wineries, restaurants, the ocean. I enjoy the proximity [00:43:30] of the ocean. I can walk up to the beach here in three minutes and swim. Um, for me, my family are here. Uh, that's a good. That's a good reason I can get to Wellington relatively easily. Auckland. It's a good place to live. It's a good place to live. Looking ahead. Where do you think you'll be in five years? Time are probably here, Um, and and slightly stuck in the same chair that I'm sitting in now. Unless I get one of those booster chairs for old people so they don't have to struggle to get out of, um, I'm very happy here. [00:44:00] Um, every time there's Lotto, we make big plans, my partner and I, and then we go to cash in our tickets, and the ships just sell us dud ones that don't come up with the goods. So we haven't got the flash house out in the country, you know, with the stables and the barn and the cars and the weekend car. And that. So sadly, life might have to be a little more modest than that. Um, who knows? Life's a journey. Do you stay here? Do you find something different for the moment? Uh, this is fantastic. Uh, between us, my wife and I have had about what, 13 different [00:44:30] houses I think. And so we've done the suburban home. I've had the house in the country we've built new. And so, for the moment, an apartment in the inner city is just wonderful. It's great. Fantastic. Five years time. Who knows? Um, the only problem here is where would my private Swedish nurse live when he has to come to bath me or something. But I suppose we can deal with that, couldn't we? Really? Yeah. Yeah. This afternoon, after this interview, you're you're heading off to somewhere very special, and I'm just wondering if you [00:45:00] can, um, as we wrap up, tell me about where you're off to and and and what you're about to be doing. Yeah, but it's not very glamorous. I'm off to a theatre just over the road here. Uh, Phantom of the opera is on that. I'm a member of Napier operatic, And, um so the Phantom of the Opera is on. Sadly, however, when I went for audition, they clearly didn't understand my very specific skills. I would have made a wonderful boat in the French sewer. Just look, look at that. I mean, that looks like a great boat. [00:45:30] Um, So, uh, I'm now the usher, but that's all right. At least you're at the front where people can see you and you get to see the show. Sometimes. If you're backstage, you have to wear black and you're in the corner and people don't even know you're there. That's that's That's a bit sad. Really? So, yeah. Fans for the opera this afternoon. That's pretty good, isn't it? Yes. And there'll be lots of people there with Zimmer frames. I understand because it's a matinee. Um, So I'll be able to see, you know, which sort of model I should be buying. Probably for Christmas next year. So that I'm ready to go or keep [00:46:00] an eye on the op shop, you know, because they take them over there when they've been gathered up. And a second hand one is all right? Yeah. Yeah, that's this afternoon. Taken care of. Really? And then tomorrow I'm off to my granddaughter's third birthday, and she's put in the order for the birthday cake and stuff, so yeah, pretty varied. Really? Yes.

IRN: 735
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/jules_and_ness_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004254
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089548
TITLE: Jules Lovelock and Ness Simons
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Jules Lovelock; Ness Simons
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Alison Bechdel; Aotearoa New Zealand; Blue Is the Warmest Colour; Graeme Tetley; Jules Lovelock; Ness Simons; New Zealand Film Commission; OutTakes: A Reel Queer Film Festival; The Film and Television School New Zealand; Tom Scott; Wellington; arts; creativity; crowd sourcing; film; funding; identity; stereotypes; storytelling; television; visibility; visual arts; women; writing
DATE: 22 August 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Jules Lovelock and Ness Simons talk about film-making and what makes a queer film.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, I'm near Simons. I am a filmmaker, a writer and director. I've been in working in the film industry for about just under 2. 5 years, so I came to it fairly late in the piece. I'm Jo Lovelock. I'm a filmmaker, and I am. I have directed some stuff. I'm assistant director in production so far, and I've come to it even later than this because I've been doing that for about five years now. It's probably [00:00:30] career four for me. What film? It's something that I have always had a passion about, and I'm also a very visual person. The things that excite me are visual rather than written, although, you know, still like reading and know a good story. But that's the visual thing that, um, I find really exciting and also done always played around with cameras in terms of photography. And so the visual thing is, the [00:01:00] visual storytelling is the thing that I really like. Uh, I think for me, I really like story. I like story in almost every form, whether it's, you know, on the page on stage or in film. One of the big attractions for me with film is that it's collaborative and and there is that visual element, and I think, um, the ability for it to travel as well, you know, it can be it can be made in one country and go to any other country in the world. And so you get to see a different perspective. Um, and and and it's so accessible [00:01:30] on that level compared to compared to stage, Can you describe what kind of films you've made so far? Well, I made my I would say that mine was a little thriller, actually, the one that I did, I've made two, actually, two little thrillers, Um, and otherwise I've kind of taken a tack of It's pretty mainstream. A lot of the stuff that I've worked on, um, things like Separation City. Predicament Home by Christmas. The last series was the big [00:02:00] one that I worked on was Jane Camp. It's top of the lake, um, for myself, I've, uh, made a couple, I think three short do of, um, a music video, uh, short, uh, short narrative as well. Um, that are completed. Um, I'm also a writer, and at the moment, I've got, uh, two feature films. kind of in development and a couple of short films as well, One of which, that Jules and I are hoping we'll be shooting in [00:02:30] the next few months. So we got some funding through and shortlisted for some more. So, yeah, we've got our fingers crossed. What about queer specific film? Pretty much, Um, everything that I've made so far has, um, has certainly had a queer perspective in terms of, uh, a lot of the time, my main characters have been queer. Um, even, actually, even in the that I've made, they've all, um the the main people went on camera [00:03:00] have been queer. Um, I actually I had a kind of a funny conversation with my father, uh, last year, which, when he asked me about, um, why all my films have, you know, gay characters and and and And I kind of felt like I had to defend it and justify it. And and then afterwards, I ended up getting really frustrated by that and thinking, Well, why should I defend it and justify it? You know, why don't we have this content on screen? And why is it a big deal to have queer characters and I guess it made me start to think about you know [00:03:30] why? Um, it's important to me to have, um, queer characters in my work, and I'm not saying I always will, but I, um I certainly am not shying away from, um from making sure that queer characters are front and centre of stuff that are right. I, um, I think it's not something that I would That I would say, is if you like a constraint or a must have in anything that I do. And certainly, [00:04:00] um, I don't think I can even think. There's maybe one character in all of the projects that I've worked on, you know, across the spectrum where there's maybe been one queer character. And even then I think it might have been a joke. So it's not. It's not, um, I. I couldn't say that it's what I'm making or what I have been involved in as queer to date, but but I am. So does that count. Do you see yourselves [00:04:30] as queer filmmakers? I see myself as queer and a film maker not necessarily going hand in hand, and the concept of or the idea of queer film making for me and how I. I guess I would describe describe it because it is quite subjective is that it's more a happenstance for me if I was involved in the development of a story where it the character is queer. Um, [00:05:00] I wouldn't see I at least that you know, there's a ripple effect in the same way that people's interactions when they discover somebody is queer. That's what happens every day, you know, like in society if you like. But in film, um, I don't necessarily think that having the queer character means that. Therefore, the story is telling a queer story. My I'm more kind of going down the track of that. It's a good story rather than that. It's a queer story and what [00:05:30] comes from that, And if it's a if they I'd like the main character. I think it's something that I develop to be queer, but that's not what's defining them. It's the story and something else that's going on that is, in terms of whether I consider myself a queer filmmaker. I think it's really interesting that there are, um, you know, there's constantly kind of little times where you have to define yourself. And I am a filmmaker and I'm queer in the same way that I'm a person and I'm queer. And I think that there's times [00:06:00] where, um, yes, I might I might be considered a queer filmmaker, and I'm not going to run away from that label if that makes people comfortable to put me there. Um, but I, I am I'm a filmmaker who is influenced constantly by my perspective of being queer. And as much as I'm influenced by my perspective of being a woman or, um, being a New Zealander, all the other sort of parts that make you know are part of me. So I think, Yeah, it's interesting. And I think there is a real, um, [00:06:30] need sometimes for people to be classified in different areas, like, you know, like for some filmmakers, they might be the Maori filmmaker or, um, you know, the Pacifica filmmaker. And I think they go through a lot of the same sorts of things in terms of where do I stick my stake in the ground as well in considering it. And it can be, um, something that people fear in terms of getting funding or support or reaching a certain audience, or and and there are some of the challenges, and they are are quite real. [00:07:00] Um, at the moment, I haven't had any kind of, um, big barriers put up in terms of saying that I am a queer filmmaker. Um, so, yeah, I don't I don't They're not necessarily so such a big deal for me. Is that a fear that you would be boxed in as, Oh, that's a queer filmmaker? Sure. Absolutely. I think, um, you know, we we're still so limited by the kind of content that we see on screen that we would consider [00:07:30] queer and and, you know, there's a whole other discussion to have around what that is. And I think that that's probably something that everyone comes to from their own position, you know? Is it just having a central character? Is it the? The team behind making the film is that you know that the whole story has more than one queer character in it. Um, is it a queer perspective on the world, all those sorts of things And you know, when you start looking at things like that, you start shifting. Films are expensive. It's really expensive medium to be working in. [00:08:00] And so you do have to rely on funding in order for projects to happen. And you also need to have the audiences at the end of it so that you know that funding people don't want to just give you money to make film, you know, they're actually looking for a return. And so, um, you know, you do have to kind of keep some of that stuff in mind. And I guess for me, I feel like hopefully I'll know when to pick my battles on that level and and stick up for, um, you know, the story that I believe in without compromising anything and and [00:08:30] work out another way to get funding or whatever. Or Or there might be times where I can compromise because it's not essential to the story. And it might allow me to reach a broader audience or make a project. So yeah, I think, um, I'd like to think that we're in a place right now, though that, um that the place that we would normally go to get funding or anybody would go to get film funding, You know, at least they were people who were, you know, Salvation Army. I mean, um, you know that we we're not talking about [00:09:00] I. I wouldn't expect there to be an issue. In fact, I'll be surprised if there was an issue around that these days. I mean, you know, we have come a long way in New Zealand and, you know, we still have, you know, things that we would, I guess, have to make make a stand about and protest about. But I'd like to think that being turned down for funding because it's clear it is not something that we should have to deal with. And I'd be surprised, I think, if it was happening today, unless [00:09:30] it's somebody who's who's, uh or some corporation or a business or an individual, if you like. You know, a philanthropist who's decided that they're quite happy to fund film in some way, but they don't want to fund. Well, that's a I guess that's a very subjective and a personal reason for doing it. But I wouldn't think a funding body turn that down these days. I think it depends like my experience so far has been awesome. Actually, you know, on that level. I've had funding from Radio New Zealand from the Film Commission from the Emerging Artists Trust. [00:10:00] And for every one of those funding applications, it has definitely been queer content. Que central characters queer storylines. Um and I think, you know, it comes back to that thing around story, you know, develop your story and you know, there's there's that. If you can make your story strong enough, then it should transcend any of the kind of areas where people get a little bit nervous about funding. And, um, it's certainly been my experience to date. Um, that being said, I haven't [00:10:30] gone for future funding production funding. And you know, when you start talking about millions of dollars and they want to know it, it comes back to audience again for me. You know, they want to know, Are we gonna get you know, some of this money back and on one level there's this massive, um, platform of queer festivals throughout the world, and, you know, it's it's a really good market that New Zealand often doesn't have a voice in. But on the other hand, in terms of getting revenue back from those sorts of areas. I'm not sure you know about the business case for [00:11:00] that sort of stuff. And again, you know, prime time TV. Or if you start thinking about what your audience is, then you have to be realistic about the kind of content that you can put into those places as well. So I think it'll be interesting to ask that question again in five years time and see, you know where we've got to with the things that we want to be doing here. Yeah, I mean, it has if you look back through the history of New Zealand film, but film on a global scale, there have been different moments, Um, of [00:11:30] I guess, of importance within queer cinema, you know, And there there was kind of a moment where it was quite fashionable to have the coming out stories, and and they were more, um, welcomed and, you know, broader arena and stuff and a little bit at the moment with, um, you know, there's a lot of trans stories in terms of international film festival and stuff like that, that documentaries or feature films that seem to be quite popular, and that's awesome in terms of visibility and taking a different perspective, [00:12:00] you know, to a broader market. Um, so this year? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that that's a huge. That's a big moment, actually, In queer film history, I think it is. It is. I mean, I kind of, um you know, I have that one step further where I'd love to see it being a queer filmmaker and and especially with the storyline about lesbians. I'd love to see a female queer filmmaker being the one who is directing and writing and stuff that that film. And, you know, I don't know [00:12:30] whether it would be different or not on that level. But at the same time, I haven't seen the film yet. I don't think it's for release here in New Zealand yet, is it? But you know, at the same time, if it's a good story and it's authentic and it feels like, um something that's unique but universal at the same time, I'm I'm happy that it's been made. You know, how queer does a film have to be before it's a queer film? Like I mean, are we talking cast storyline? I think it, um I think it varies. [00:13:00] I actually think that the answer to that is what each individual person, uh, answer is to the what they consider a queer film. I mean, like, we talked at real queer, and they have their idea because of how they they want to target themselves in situation themselves, for the audience. But, um, it's so subjective. I think it's very difficult to answer that, except by giving your own opinion of it. Um, yeah, and I think it it depends as well, like a little [00:13:30] bit on, um, the market for it, you know, like in something like outtakes, for instance. Then I think that the kind of the parameters for what makes something queer need to be a little bit more obvious for the audience. Whereas, um, you know, if you're in a mainstream audience, maybe having a secondary character that's queer, that is in some way tied into the storyline means that we're getting queer films into those places. You know? It's, um, yeah, and and as II, I agree [00:14:00] with Joel. I think it is an individual kind of, um, point of view on that level about what makes it queer or not, and and you know that comes happens the same with, Um, we hear about women's stories. We never hear about so much about men's stories. You know that, um, women's stories become this other kind of classification because Tom Scott might disagree with you. Yeah, Tom Scott might disagree with me. Um, but we you know, we we have all these kind of classic classifications [00:14:30] about it's It's a little bit like, you know what I call myself a queer filmmaker. It's the same sort of thing in terms of Is this a queer film or not? A queer film? I think that it you can kind of look at it from different perspectives, and you can apply your checklist and all that sort of stuff to it. But really, it's only your checklist, and it might be a completely different experience for someone else. Can you talk a wee bit about the the kind of process of making a film like, How long does it take? What at what point do you want to start? [00:15:00] I mean, I think we did touch on it the other day, didn't we? It was, um, uh, you know, feature films can. There's there's nothing really definitive. I mean mentioned Tom again. I know that he spent. I think he had eight years or nine years with that script, trying to get it to the point where they could actually get it made. And not so much necessarily the work on the script itself from his perspective, but getting people to buy into the idea of it. And this is a guy that's got a, you know, [00:15:30] pretty lengthy, um, career and a quite a high profile. So, um, I think they generally speaking, I don't think it would be, you know, under five years for a feature film, just the pro script getting the script to a point where you feel you can have a crack at seeing if you can get the funding for it takes quite a while. And it's It's that How long have you been working on a feature film? Um, so on that level, like, I guess, um, you know, one of the things that I hear a lot as [00:16:00] a writer is, um, part of the reason that there's especially in New Zealand that there's so many writer directors is because writers are the only ones that can kind of drive that project for long enough that it takes to make it happen. And then that sort of process often end up or directors are the You know Jason Sutter is, you know, is a New Zealand filmmaker who's made a hell of a lot of films and has, you know, kind of put his hand up and said, Actually, he doesn't really want to write. He would rather direct, but that the length of writing [00:16:30] you know, the 7 to 10 year average for a feature film script to be developed to the point of production, um, means that you have to have someone that's going to be committed to that project for that length of time. And, you know, sometimes it is only that one person driving it, and and often with a producer may be helping along the way. But, um, yeah, I think, you know, after the waterfalls and another New Zealand film 12 years it took from, you know, her originally kind of wanting to make it to actually getting it to screen, and that's that's pretty normal, [00:17:00] you know, The other end of the scale is that when we you know you're at film school you're making a what is a short film, and you kind of do that within six months and go to work or the studios might be six months, but the others are winging it, you know, and you'll make the short film and there's some really good little ones kind of fall out of that. And you do that in maybe three months. Yeah. And it is, I mean, the short film that we're looking at developing at the moment. I mean, we are, um, [00:17:30] probably planning to shoot it in six months or things going to plan. But I first started writing that the first draught that I wrote was, um at the start of 2012, So I'm already almost 18 months from, but that does, you know, I'm not working on it the whole time, um, during that time, But I you know, from the original idea, it's kind of it's developed and changed a lot to where I could find a place to have it in a short film. That story in a short film. And, you know, it may change a little more again before [00:18:00] production. Hopefully not too much, but yeah, yeah, I mean, I think I I feel like again I feel like it's close, but I mean and that's quite sure you could, you know, probably bust something out in a few weeks and shoot it and stuff. But you know, how high is your bar? I guess. Who's going to go and see it? Is it is it actually worth seeing on the big screen, or is it something? You go here, Look what we made and you watch it on a laptop. You know, that can be the difference between and there [00:18:30] out in three weeks and and actually taking the time and let the gestation period be really lengthy because you're actually delivering quality. But it's, you know, it depends like I think that there is totally a valid place for this. The spit it out. I mean, you and I did that for the outtake specifically in mind. We wanted to have local content on screen. And so we, um, just went off to the, um out in the square fear. And part of that was about us going OK, we're going to work together. And how's that going to happen? And, you know, we made some mistakes. And we learned some things [00:19:00] along the way. Um, but, you know, I think I think there is, um, one of the things that I love now I remember really acutely being 14, 15, 16 and really struggling to find representations that I could connect with on a queer level. And yet, now, you know, we've got this amazing platform in the Internet where, um, people can be in the arse end of nowhere and still able to access a community or a culture that they're, you know, maybe [00:19:30] identifying with or questioning or wanting to know more about. And I think that's amazing. And on that level, you know, some of that stuff that gets spread out is not particularly the best way to spend your time. But, uh, every now and then I see stuff that blows me away. And I'm just like, Wow, these guys have done an amazing you know, it's it's got an amazing insight. Or, you know, there's something going on that I just connect with completely on a human level, and it doesn't necessarily always have to be about planning and time. It depends what you want to achieve, really, and I think [00:20:00] when you're looking at feature films and you've got, you know, multimillion dollar budgets on the line, Yeah, you have to spend the time because, um, you probably haven't put all that money up yourself, you know? So and, you know, I'm really realistic about that. Um um I kind of, you know, I have I have I guess I have the two hats and I came to writing before I came to, um to filmmaking. I've been writing for a few more years than I've been making films, and and I'm realistic. I Before that, I had I had a business background, and I understand [00:20:30] the value of money. And I understand you know how hard it is to save money to make money, whatever way you want to look at it. And I get pretty pissed off with, um, people within the film industry that have an entitlement kind of and actually not just within the film industry within creative industries. You know, I've made this great thing, or I've got this great idea, so you should give me some money. And often the people that have that attitude are the ones that don't develop to the point where you know you want to invest in them. Yeah, for sure. And I think [00:21:00] that there's sometimes an issue with that, Um, with queer content, you know that people can use that as an excuse for not getting funding when actually, it might have been, You know, they had a good concept or something was working, but they just needed to spend more time developing. Or they needed to get some other people helping them develop it. Or maybe it was a bit average. Yes, let's talk a bit about the out on the square film. And I'm wondering, [00:21:30] how was the crowd response when you were filming out on the square? Because I think I mean, there aren't that many queer films being made in New Zealand, are there? No. No. I was really surprised when I went to the launch for outtakes. And, yeah, I. I had this moment where I, you know, was, um was chatting to the organisers of outtakes and I said, you know, so how many films from Wellington and they were like, No, actually it was the only ones from New Zealand, and [00:22:00] I and I just had this moment of going really, really? Because I know how many queer people are in the film industry, and it's Yeah, it's, um I guess they're not making I mean, I know quite a few, too, but they're not everybody. You know. There's a whole bunch of people that have kind of that are working in the industry in the way that I have been to date, which is you're working on a whole lot of projects. But they're not your own personal ones that you're driving because you're trying to make a living out of it. So there's a whole lot of people doing that. And then there's other people who do this [00:22:30] over here and they're driving at the level. Um, you know, like writer director type stuff over here, they make their living doing something else. Um, and there's a lot of filmmakers around who do that as well. Yeah, all these. I mean, like for myself. I kind of still make my living within the industry. But I'm doing everything independently, and you know, that has its pros and cons. But essentially, it does, um, pay all my bills and give me the freedom and [00:23:00] allow me to make all the connections. I need to, um, to, you know, be working on my own projects and and put my hand up to work on other people's as well, because I think you know, that's important for me. I'm I'm way down the rank of where I, you know, in terms of what I can achieve with film at the moment. I know that, you know, my bar is so much higher than where I'm at now, but I just hope that I learn and improve every you know, every project I do, Um, And to come back to your original question, which was about the outtakes. Um, [00:23:30] I found people really receptive to being on camera. And, you know, we basically had a really short kind of spell about this is what we're doing, which was, you know, exactly that. We want to have local faces on screen. We want to kind of, you know, and yeah, and just, um you know, we basically had a bunch of prompts and people pulled out a prompt, and it might be a dream or I want or I hope, or things like that. And then they just finished the sentence and, um, and people tended to have a lot of fun with it. It was super interesting because it was, [00:24:00] um, between readings two and three of the, um uh, Marriage Equality Act. And that seemed to be pretty foremost for most people, you know? And I think actually at the at the fear itself, you know, in terms of what was being said on stage and stuff like that, it was quite it. It is a big moment in New Zealand's queer history. And so it was kind of nice to document that in a small way as well. And then we could do a part two, which is a follow up come through. What would they be thinking about next year? Yeah, [00:24:30] but, um, yeah, so it's kind of interesting and then, you know, to kind of carry that through, like so doing the submission and all that sort of stuff that there's so much time and that gets eaten up in film. I can understand what's so freaking expensive, but you know, from the from the concept or the writing of the script or the developing development of a plan for a or whatever through to actually shooting, and then you've got editing, which is usually double the time of, you know, planning and shooting a lot of the time, or even triple sometimes. And, um, you know, and and then [00:25:00] you might have the pro, the the product. But then you've got to actually get it out to the audience. And that's like a whole other amount of time In terms of distribution and stuff like that. Outtakes try to make that really easy. And I think for the most part, you know, they do. It was my It was the first time I've ever submitted anything for a festival. And, um, and I submitted the the out in the square that Joel and I made and then also a short film that I made called fascism. And, um, and one of the short do which was interesting around queer content wasn't enough queer content. That [00:25:30] was cool. Um, but the subject was clear, and so was the the film worker. But but yes, Yeah, but yeah, but, um, but yeah. And so they did try to make it easy. And then all of a sudden, you know, the two of them were accepted and that was really exciting. It was It was a really nice moment to have. And of course, naturally, I come from this, you know, I come from this crazily awesome family, and, um, they all wanted to come. And so, you know, initially I'd gone from being nervous about whether or not they'd get selected [00:26:00] than being selected and then a being nervous because on a certain level, I can't imagine more of a jury of my peers. You know, I've been, um, living in Wellington pretty much all of my adult life, or generally. And, um and I've been in the queer community of Wellington for that whole kind of time. And, um yeah, to kind of be sitting in an audience of the Wellington queer community. Well, something I made was on screen, scared me a little bit. And then on top of that, my whole family wanted to come, [00:26:30] and that was really cool. I was always safe because I I I'm not from Wellington. I kind of come in and out of Wellington. I came out late. I have never been immersed in the queer community here. I don't know very many people at all in the community. Actually, no nerves for me. Wait. The lobby wanting to shake your hand down the red co. The good, the good. But it was really cool. I mean, it was so interesting. Um, the whole experience of it being an outtakes. Um, [00:27:00] and so they were a short programme of four shorts, Um, two of which were the ones that I had submitted and Jules and I had submitted. And then, um, another one was a short, um, with Alison Vida, which was just I was just kind of like, Oh, my God. I'm in the same kind of, you know, screening as Alison Big. That was kind of cool. And, um, and then another one was on Was lesbian, which was a revolution of the lesbian movement, Um, in relation to the women's movement. And, you know, I was going Oh, choice. [00:27:30] My dad's gonna really love that. And I you know, I was feeling a touch on the city about it, and, um, and then my girlfriend was just like it be good for him. He'll get over it, you know, And she was and she was so right. You know, it was I was more nervous about it, then they were just there to support me and, you know, to support the films that I'd made. And that was really cool. It's, you know, it's great to know that my, you know, we've had our moments, definitely, you know, going back and from the time that I've come out and stuff. But it's great to know that my family are pretty much [00:28:00] bombproof now. You know, I think I could rock up to almost anything, and they would. They would support me. And I think that that really helps me in terms of, um, having enough sometimes having enough courage to do the stuff that might be a little bit tricky in terms of wearing my heart on my sleeve about my sexuality or about the kind of content that I want to put out there. I mean, it also has its, um, has other things that I have to overcome, because I do know that my family are probably going to want to watch [00:28:30] anything that I make. But yeah, yeah, it is. It's it's really nice to have that support and and to have it, um, from the, you know, from from the Queer community as well as a result of it was pretty cool. You mentioned film school just before, and I'm just wondering, what was that like going through film school? Uh, I mean, were you both out at the time? What was that like? Fine. It was, um we weren't treated any differently. [00:29:00] We weren't treated, um, in a negative way because of that. Um, I wasn't the only queer person in my crew. Um, yeah, it was just if I kind of put it on the perspective, there were no issues, you know, really? Because I was queer. Yeah, I think film school for me was, um just like a Yeah, Yeah, II. I just felt like it was a, um a magnified kind of little New Zealand [00:29:30] in some ways and that, you know, for the most part, there were no issues and stuff, but there were things for me. Um, that did come up like at the time that I was at film school. Um, everything was so gay. That's so gay that so gay. And you know, my my tolerance for that saying has been pretty tiny ever since it first came out. And sometimes it just gets really boring being the person that has to educate everyone else, you know? But every now and then I, um I get on my high horse about it. And, you know, a lot of my crew were were young guys, and and and I think [00:30:00] that that saying is probably most popular within that sort of demographic, and I kind of, you know, got to a point where I go, right? Guys, here's the deal, you know, and and had essentially said to them, Knock yourself out. But just don't do it when I'm around, because I'm getting really sick of it and, you know, and I was a bit older. I was in my thirties when I was at film school. So I had, you know, 10 years on most of the people that were there, and anyway, so I had this, you know, I had I had one of them come up to me. Most of them just didn't pay any attention. I had one of them come up to me. Um oh, no, It [00:30:30] was while while I was shooting my short film. So my short film, um, had a had a lesbian central character and um, and it's kind of about expectations and stuff, and part of it was that she essentially had to be in a changing room, Um, almost naked or wearing a dress, both of what she wasn't feeling super comfortable about. But she was prepared to kind of go there, and, um and so she's standing there in a dress and, um, you know, the whole kind of cruise in front of her and stuff like that. And, um, one [00:31:00] of the people in my crew was kind of in the background going on about I can't even remember what she was talking about. But you know how gay something was and da da da and just kind of completely running it down and and it meaning shit. And, um, and and one of the one of the young chaps who had been in that original group when I'd gone, you know, kind of right, guys, we need to sort this out. He just leaned over to me really quietly, and he said, Oh, I see what you mean. There basically, she looks a bit like a dickhead at the moment, and I was like, Yes, you know, so on that level. I kind of had some really nice little [00:31:30] moments, but I also, you know, for the same story. Um, I kind of came to loggerheads with the head shooter because he just did not get the perspective. And he kept wanting me to write this other bit into a scene that completely screwed my story, you know? But he didn't understand what it was really about, which was about the kind of expectations that we have of ourselves being bigger than those that other people put on us and how that controls the the things that we do and how comfortable we feel doing those things. And, um, yeah, [00:32:00] he just kind of, you know, I think I had two or three feedback sessions with him about it, and he mentioned the same thing every time until I just kind of went Look, I'm not going to do it. And if it ends up not working, I'll just wear that, you know? But yeah, So it kind of, um but for the most part, everyone was really supportive. And I don't think also, um, as our kind of our graduation film at the end of the year at the end of each year at film school, the crew make two kind of big budgeted grad films that are shot on film and stuff. And the whole crew worked together on these two films. [00:32:30] And, um, one of my scripts was one of the ones produced and and again, you know, um, lesbian central characters. And, um, there didn't seem to be kind of any issue in terms of supporting that or the crew getting on board with the story or, um, any of that sort of stuff or, you know, right right through the whole process. Um, there were a couple of comments that I kind of heard about and stuff, but for the most part, everyone just went I'm going to make this film, you know, which is cool. And I think, um, you know, on that level, film schools progress even more. [00:33:00] Um, in recent times, um, in terms of support and and awareness, I think and and pastoral care and stuff and and for a lot of the time, especially for the young and, um who are going there sometimes they're finding out they're gay while they're at film school, and they're in the middle of this film school is intense, man. You know, it's a really, really it's an awesome experience, but it's pretty full on. But the film industry itself is really full on as well. So I think it's kind of it's quite a nice kind of Yeah. Um, [00:33:30] but yeah. Then, you know, I know in recent times there have been, um, young people who are sort of discovering things about their own sexuality while they're at film school. And I've been really impressed with how that's been handled. Definitely. What about the gender balance in film? Generally in the film school? I mean, is it more boys than girls? I'm guessing it. Does it change the film? If you've got, like, a predominantly male crew or [00:34:00] predominantly female crew, how does that work? Yeah, I think it's really interesting. So in the film industry in general, I think in New Zealand it was 12%. Or am I just making that up? I felt like, you know, roughly 10% of women in film and, um, and most of them in the production office. But yeah, but, um, it's yeah, it's a really interesting thing if you if you're a female in the in the film industry and you're organised and you are able to [00:34:30] kind of speak your mind and stuff like that. The kind of powers that channel you into the production office are huge, like you, like you have to physically go. I'm not, you know, like I quite like production, but I've had to stick my stake in the ground about actually, I could get gobbled up in here, and I've got other things I want to do. And then at film school, I know that they make a really conscious effort to try and have gender balance crews. And I think you know I can. My I was a crew of, um, 24 originally and out of that there were 11 women, which was huge [00:35:00] for film school at the time. Um, I know the first original film school crew had one, um, women and a lot of them, you know, there's the But again, at the moment, I would, I'd say, For the last couple of years, the gender balance at film school has been pretty even. We had 14 in my crew, and I'm just trying to count. There might have been six Yeah, so I mean, it's certainly there's certainly more at film school than there are in the industry. And again, you know what's happening. You know? Is there a disconnect [00:35:30] of what happens when they leave the door? In terms of, It's a tough industry. It's It's a hard industry to be in. And I think, um, that there's lots of, you know, like I can kind of see lots of reasons why people would find it hard, and I don't know whether they're specifically, you know, more geared towards women finding it hard or men finding it hard. But the truth is that there's not as many women in film, but also for a long time. Film was was a boys club, and it has actually only been [00:36:00] in recent times that that shifted on, you know, the same as so many industries. And so maybe in five years time, 10 years time, we'll see a big difference in the amount of women that are in. I hope so in in film. And there's more receptiveness now to, um, stories with female central characters and all that stuff. We still got a long way to go, but, um, I think that that's all, all kind of part of it. You know, there's any number of films that, um are being [00:36:30] made that I don't have a huge interest in being part of because they're not the kinds of stories that I want to tell or the kind of way that they're being made isn't the kind of ways that I want to make film and stuff. And, you know, I've joked with Jules a couple of times. There's some There's some decisions that get made, and I sometimes just rubbish them as being bloody boys with toys. And Jules always rolls her eyes at me. But you know, there are There are things you know. There's a there's a there's quite a specific approach like, you know, hiring equipment that costs 80% of your budget and not feeding your crew [00:37:00] properly. And so you know, those are things that I wouldn't do, and I hate to say it, but almost every time the area that is getting paid is where the boys are, like, yeah, you know. And so on those levels, I can understand whether it's a a kind of attrition rate for women or whether they don't get into it in the first place, or yeah, I can kind of understand some of those frustrations. Yeah. Yeah, Well, there's not too many women around doing what I do. Yeah, [00:37:30] but the flip side of that is, um I mean, there's a couple of things like I haven't actually had any issues in terms of being a woman on set, and part of that is probably because I'm not afraid to speak my mind. And, um, I think that helps. Um, but also, there are some phenomenally supportive women in this industry. And I have been so, um impressed and surprised by the support that I've personally been given by women that are in, you know, quite powerful positions or it's not even about power [00:38:00] who are in positions. Um, where I wouldn't necessarily expect them to be helping someone that's kind of at the bottom of the ladder or whatever. And yet they have this ethic and this desire to, um, to work together to kind of improve and and that Really? Yeah, I've really loved it. And I've been Really, um I've been really honoured to kind of have some of that support at different times it's been really cool, and it's made a big difference. I got some very good support when I first left film school, actually, [00:38:30] And if I stop and think about it, I think where I had doors open for me and I was given a hand out it all came from woman who'd been working in the industry for quite a length of time. They they take a punt and you do a good job, and they'd give you another one and then tell their friend to give you one, too. Yeah, Yeah. And where I've been in other industries where it's the opposite it really You know, there really is that kind of Well, I've clawed my way to the top, So why should I give you you know, and you can, too, And they'll they'll judge you even [00:39:00] harsher, because you are a woman rather than help you out, you know? Yeah. No solidarity. Yeah, but, you know, the interesting thing for me is one of the things that I love about the film industry is that it's just not a place for flakes. You know, if you're you're just not going to last, you know, people you know, like if you don't do what you say you're going to do if you're not reliable, if you don't work hard for every moment that you're kind of working [00:39:30] and stuff like that, you just you won't get reemployed. You're only as good as your last reference, you know, And and so, um yeah, II. I do really like that. And but at the same time, you know, people are given opportunities and it's up to them what they do with them. And some of them might only get one opportunity and terribly, terribly badly. Squander that and that's them done. Yeah, it's a pretty harsh industry, and it's small, too. Obviously, Um, even when we're talking about, you know, the gestation period films. I mean, if you think [00:40:00] you talk about 12 years to do a feature film here, you know we're not even the size of a lot of key cities in the state. So the machine is Somebody might be 12 years working on this project here, but they've got probably seven or eight other things that they're doing at the same time, and and so they're still able to make money out of doing it that way. But we're just so small here, and you can't do it that way. You got to have. Well, I think people still do it that way, like, you know, three or four strings to your bow. You sell your soul over [00:40:30] here to give you that bit over there. But the flip side is working in a studio, and that doesn't You know, that doesn't really appeal to me either. So what about, um, thinking of of finance and poor and wealth? What about collaboration? How does that work in terms of, like, queer film? But you have to collaborate. Filmmaking, period. Yeah. I mean, I think we're really We're really lucky in New Zealand that we have government funding. You know, there's very few places in the world that do, and [00:41:00] it also kind of creates this, um, other problem in terms of people not being creative about the way that they, um, come, you know, because across the world, yes, you know there's Hollywood, But there's probably hundreds of thousands of people trying to operate in that realm, and you know, so they also have the independent market, and, you know, there's there's different places in the world where there's no funding, not a single cent. And yet people still manage to make films and, um and you know, just on my first funding applications and, you know, going around [00:41:30] so far. But it's not. But it's not. Um, it's not something that I think we you know, like I don't think that the say the film Commission should be the final decision makers on whether or not a project goes ahead. And I think if people are only looking to them for funding or for, you know, essentially for permission to make the film, then there's a lot of great films that will never get made. And, you know, and I at the moment we shortlisted for some funding and, you know, fingers crossed, [00:42:00] we get it. But if we don't, we've already got our plan in place. But how we're going to make that, you know, because we're gonna make that film, you know, And it's, um it's kind of that thing, too. If we're not going to back ourselves with the film that we want to make, why would the film commission do it? And if we get lucky enough that they do fund us. It's fantastic. But what are we not going back ourselves? Just because they wouldn't? That's not what it's about. If you you got to back yourself 100%. Which means if you think that somebody over there should give you money to make your film, you've got to be. [00:42:30] I think you have to beat. That's my opinion. I think you have to be prepared to make it yourself regardless, and you just find another way of making that happen and adhere to your principles without compromising yourself too much. And I mean, there's, you know, there's been plenty of films that applied for funding and didn't receive it and have gone on to win, You know, accolades in New Zealand and across the world. And and it's just the thing. There's no if anyone knew what a certainty was with the film, it'd be easy, right? You know, we'd all know whether or not we should make a film and whether or not we should put our money into it. But you just don't know, you know, [00:43:00] and there's so many kind of things that happen along that process of making a film, and I think the film commission, you know, sure that there's areas where they can take more calculated kind of guesses, but ultimately they're doing the same thing anyone else is or we think this is a good idea, but we won't know until the audience sees it. And I think queer film plays on that same same platform for me. You know, it's, um in some ways I kind of think I don't know if I want this on record, but in some ways I kind of think it's an advantage. You know, like I. [00:43:30] I potentially it is right now in New Zealand. It's not even well, yeah, maybe it's about timing, but it's also about, um, I guess the networks that I have or know or, um you know what I can offer people that can help me make my projects happen. And, you know, I've already kind of done that a little bit with some other stuff that I've got going on. I'm not afraid to. You know, the music video that I made was, um, was made for a band that was completely separate to the business that funded it. But it was a business that funded it because there was something in it for [00:44:00] them as well. And essentially, at the end of the day, I get to make an awesome creative project. You know, the band gets a music video, and the company gets something that they've really stoked to stand behind as well. And so I kind of think on on those levels a little bit in terms of funding, and I don't know that, um, queer content necessarily puts me out of contention for any of that sort of stuff. But, um, I guess again, it comes back to that having a strong enough story, a strong enough idea that the people that you go to for funding can see the benefit [00:44:30] in it, you know, see what's going to happen. So, yeah, but and I think crowdsourcing gets used a lot. And I have, um, donated to a few. One of the things that frustrates me is that people sit there and say that there's no, um, you know, they don't get to see que content and da da da da, But yet they never respond to the emails asking for support. You know, they they just want to watch it for free online or, you know, borrow the discs off a mate or whatever. But when the filmmakers really actually need their dollar, when they're making the films, they ignore [00:45:00] those you know, crowdsourcing requests or things like that. And, um and so I guess that's kind of my challenge to people. If you if you actually like watching, you know, stuff that that filmmakers have made and they're making another project, then support the next project. Give them five bucks. You know if if you can afford it or give them more if you can afford more. But it's, you know, people. It's not easy for filmmakers to, um, to ask for money. You know, I don't think I think maybe it is for some, actually. But I think for a lot of filmmakers, um, they understand. [00:45:30] You know, that they need money in order to make their projects and that they need, um the support of a community to do that and whether that community be a queer community or, um, you know, a community of parents or a community, you know, from a certain country, or or whatever it is, um, often you go to your community for support. And so, yeah, I get I. I do. I imagine that I'm going to use crowd funding at some point in the future for projects. And, um, again, it comes back to that thing for me. How can I give [00:46:00] people something that it is hopefully in it for them? And And maybe that's something, Will, it will be the project that I'm making that that will be enough for them to go. Yeah, I want to see that. So I'm happy to put a few bucks up front. You can ask for your networks. So you're not just gonna ask your queer? You just ask for your networks, because basically, the the people that you know in your network are the ones that you'd like to think will support you. But your mind would. Yeah, yeah, but, you know, and it comes back to that whole either Most of mine. Yeah. Yeah. [00:46:30] You still got time? We can chat. I'm a whole different generation. Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about, um, queer portrayal. So the characters in the film people can be portrayed in so many different ways. What are your thoughts about using, like stereotypes and the types of language that are used and the explicitness of what's on the screen. Go on, you've got something to say. I've got something to say. Um, [00:47:00] so it's stereotypes are really interesting. Stereotypes can be excellent tools for filmmakers because they give, um, an audience the opportunity to quickly kind of know who someone is or what kind of person someone is. But if that's where you end your representation of a person on screen, then you've just lost it. Basically, you know, like it's stereotypes are a place to start, and then you have to develop and make these people three dimensional and authentic and human and real. And, um, and that's part of the education process, [00:47:30] too, in terms of if you feel that you need to. But you do you want to kind of get take the audience on that journey with their character as well. And if you do leave it just sitting there, nobody's any further ahead. Your film is not. Your story is not in the audience are in terms of getting a better understanding that, in fact stereotype is just a start place, and it's also it's a creation of somebody else. It's not necessarily the way that's gonna come to them from. [00:48:00] It's a different place. If somebody was left to start with a blank page, they mightn't even come up with it in terms of how they would see that person. It's been placed in front of them and they inherited it. So you want to take it that bit further and that doesn't you know, that's not just for stereotypes. It's for stereotypes in general, you know? And I think, you know, like, I'm really acutely aware of that. Some people might look at me and have a stereotype for me, you know? But yet there'll be a million other things [00:48:30] that they don't know about me that are important and part of my life and things that I do and say and all that sort of stuff. And so I kind of go, Yeah, cool stereotypes. They're a great way to something. But yeah, you can't just leave it at that for sure, I might surprise. It's really interesting, though. Like I when I first started writing, I I came about it a different way to most people and that, um, I wrote a feature film before I wrote a short film. I don't ever do that. I don't recommend it. [00:49:00] So So I had to kind of learn how to write while I was also trying to write this speech for film, which was wicked. Anyway, um, so the for the feature film, My central character, my two central characters are lesbian, and I discovered this interesting thing in draught two, which was, um, that I part of part of it was about learning about myself. And I find that constantly as a filmmaker, whether I'm, you know, in terms of writing or directing or, you know, crewing or anything like that [00:49:30] is that I'm constantly challenged about my own kind of world view or the way I think and do things or, um, what it is I kind of want to put out into the world. And so I've written these, um, lesbian characters that were, I wouldn't say perfect, but I was so kind of they were sort of taboo to me, you know, like I could I could push my other characters so much better than I could with these lesbian characters. And so I had to take a step back, and I was really lucky I had, Um the lovely Graham Tiley is my first writing teacher [00:50:00] who is, you know, a phenomenal kind of figure in, um, screenwriting for New Zealand. And, um, he was the one that, you know, he just had this really gorgeous way of kind of leading me down the right track without ever telling me what I needed to do. You know, he'd just kind of have me question what was going on and let me find that out. And, um anyway, so he started kind of questioning what was going on for my main characters, and and I discovered this this thing about myself, which [00:50:30] is that I was so sick of watching stereotypical portrayals of lesbian that I didn't connect with. I didn't understand. I got frustrated with I got angry about sometimes, you know, that that it almost, um, paralysed me into writing my own lesbian characters because I was so scared of repeating, you know, kind of poor representations that I'd seen from other people. It sounds like my coming out my fear. [00:51:00] Yeah, and so and so, like, this stereotypical box that people had in their opinions of it. And it's, you know, it's It's a really hard thing to confront. It's, um and it's, you know, it's not like I, you know, necessarily think that I'm fantastic at it now, but I'm aware of it. And so I try to kind of push that a little bit further. And it's the same with, you know, different kinds of characters. You know? Oh God, are people going to think this character is my dad? Well, if they do what you know what's what's my kind of statement here or what's going on, What do I want them to think? [00:51:30] You know, all that sort of stuff and think, Oh, yeah, he's good, my dad, But yeah, and you know, But then there's there's other things as well. And sometimes you're just too close, you know, like I, um there are stories that I know that I might at some point be able to tell. But I'm I'm not ready to, you know, like that that I'm not ready to kind of, um, expose myself kind of that much. And it is it is quite exposing, [00:52:00] you know. And in any creative realm, I think it's, you know, the same. If you're a musician, or a painter or, you know, at certain points do you go? How much am I going to expose? And sometimes you know, that's around the queer content. But sometimes that's just about being me, you know? And it is, um, one of the things that that I feel like I need to push, you know that I do. I try to push anyway in order to kind of get there, because otherwise you do get left with stereotypes. You get left with these people that are safe. You know, the part of the reasons that [00:52:30] we see so many stereotypes is because they are safe. You know, they're a safe representation. They're an accepted representation of a certain kind of person or a certain kind of moment. They're pretty boring. They're pretty well, I love it when stereotypes like Take three, Have you ever watched Take three. So it's a New Zealand short film by, um, Roseanne Liang. I think it is, yeah, and it's, um, Chinese women stereotypes, and it's funny. So I want to do the queer version of that. That's what I want to do, you [00:53:00] know, because it's just she takes these stereotypes and she moves on from them so nicely. Yeah, that, um yeah, I have watched it a couple of times. It laugh out loud, funny, and I don't do that very often for things, but it's interesting as well. Like there's, um you know, you go through moments of there being more media attention paid to kind of what's happening on screen or not. Like just today there was a report out about how TV is slaying film in terms of queer representation on screen. [00:53:30] And, um, you know, you see what Sitcom doesn't have a queer character these days? Yes, but so this is some of the master, but yeah, they are still there. And so that's the interesting thing. And it's about the times in terms of society. But it's also about the times for the audience, you know? So if you if you're on TV and you know, Will and Grace I always had big issues with will and grace because he was never actually gay, you know, he didn't He wasn't allowed to, [00:54:00] you know, kind of get really hot and heavy with guys or anything like that. And it was prime time viewing, so they never would have been able to get that stuff through their censorship, right? So is it enough that they've got a queer character in prime time or, you know, and on some levels it is. But on other levels, I just got frustrated because I was like, but he's not, actually, you know, like he's safe, queer. He's safe, queer, you know, and we see that a lot. In TV, we see queer characters who are known to be queer, and there's some kind of ways in which they are queer. But they're not actually [00:54:30] sexually intimate with anyone Or, um, you know, even kind of exposed in any way to intimacy as a queer person with another queer person. And I think there are TV programmes that really push that like Shortland Street. You got to give it its due for that, you know? And yeah, there are. There's definitely, um, more now than used to, but I think there is still a real, um, safety net there for a lot of TV and and I understand why it's there. I mean, TV [00:55:00] is only ever about advertising. I hate to say it, you know, like in terms of, um, funding and budgets and stuff like that. It's like, Well, who's going to advertise in amongst this stuff? And so when you start polarising your audience and whether that's with any kind of community that's outside the mainstream, it starts to have to be safe to do that. So, yeah, so we've talked about characters, but I'm wondering that there are other aspects to film making that, um, maybe have a kind of a queer content. So, [00:55:30] like the length of a shot, the way that a scene is shot, can you talk about how you, um, think about those kind of things? I don't think about it from a clear perspective. To be honest, I don't and mine's more about, um, all of those things are about the storytelling and that if you like what you see in the frame is there for a reason. The the way that the camera angle is is for [00:56:00] a reason. But doesn't it change if you're if you've got, like, say, a predominantly queer audience to a mainstream audience, wouldn't that shot change? No. Because if if if your story is for a queer audience, that's what makes the bit queer. Everything else around it is actually either good or bad filmmaking or good or bad decisions around how you're going to shoot it or colour it or, you know, all all the other aspects that go into filmmaking. [00:56:30] I don't think would be, Um, I don't think you'd be constrained or have to have to do it a certain way to make it clear. I mean, because I mean, there's the genre. The genre can drive how you shoot it. It can drive how you do your scenes. Or you could take your basic film making rules that you have for how you do a myriad of things within the whole design of what's in the frame and you can break them because it's clear, [00:57:00] I mean, because to make it different or to make it fractured or whatever. But, um, I don't think you're doing it because it's clear that it has to be that way. You're doing it because it might tell you it might be the que perspective you're wanting to take from your story or what the audience to take from your story. But I don't know if it's, um, I think it would be a bigger rather than if it was me. I think it would be at a bigger level, I guess, than just say, the shot of the angle [00:57:30] of the camera or the dialogue that I mean dialogue. It would be maybe something that's a bit more, but the language that you use might be, but yeah, I, I You've made queer films that that that's not what I'm here to do. Necessarily. So, yeah, I mean, I kind of, um there are times when I'm acutely aware of that. Like, I have just had a moment. I've been [00:58:00] working on this feature film that I've had the opportunity to workshop over a number of months with actors and stuff, and, um, the central character is queer. And there's the sort of main storyline is is a queer storyline. And I have had several moments of, like, the thing that I know in terms of my next draught. I've just gotten to the end of the first draught. The thing that I know that I need to establish before I progress is what is my audience? Am [00:58:30] I writing for a queer audience, or am I writing for a mainstream audience because there are certain things that are coming up, and it's not just dialogue. It's also action and, you know, and it is how I portray that sort of stuff as well. Um, and and in some cases, the dialogue is, uh, you know, there's a There's a line of dialogue that I have between a straight character and sort of between two queer characters. But one of them is very young, and and the older queer character says to him, So are your family then? And, um, you know, referring [00:59:00] to another character. And he's like, No, no, I just I just know him from, you know, da da da because he doesn't get that. And so for a queer audience, there's a number of people that will laugh at that sort of stuff. Um, for a mainstream audience, they didn't get it either, you know, and so it's kind of like if you can get away with one or two little things like that. But actually, overall, you need to be quite clear about who it is that you're pitching this film to because so many incidents and within that will either switch an audience off or, um, [00:59:30] you know, my experience of watching films that I felt like were queer films from a straight perspective lacked that sort of stuff. You know, the interactions and toilets might be different, you know, like I know that that's not That's a very general kind of thing. But you know what I mean? Like it's stereotypical, it's even. It's even things like, um, you know, So you've been to women only events, and all of a sudden people go, I don't have to just queue for the women's side. I'm just going to the guys toilet, you know, it's that sort of stuff. It's, um, which [01:00:00] is certain amounts of it you need, um, you need to give context for a straight audience. And so that was one of the things that was coming up for me with my script is that there was quite a few things that I had to give context for if I was writing this for a mainstream audience or for a queer audience, not so much. And so that happens that it starts to happen at a script level. And then also, when you come into, um, to filming and directing it, casting as well, you know, like for me? One of the important things, um, in my [01:00:30] filmmaking so far and and and I feel like I'm going But I won't really know until it all kind of continues is, um that, you know, I remember when the L word came out and all of a sudden there was this a whole show about lesbians and it was really exciting. And then I was just like, they're not real lesbians, you know? And it's the interesting thing for, um around authenticity in that the actors aren't no the actors, how they their life. Yeah, and I'm not saying that [01:01:00] lesbians like that don't exist anywhere ever. But they're not the kind of lesbians that I know and have known, and, you know, and it's it's great that we're getting this representation and and and one of the things I loved about the award is from a woman's perspective, as much as it's from a queer perspective. And that's freaking awesome. Um, and so all those sorts of things come into, you know, like for me, part of it is about having authenticity of actors as well. And you know, so far I've managed to do that working with non actors, and [01:01:30] I kind of hope that I will be able to continue doing that, working with non actors that that you know, I can find, um, queer people who have the ability to portray these characters on screen, and so that influences the decisions that I make around shooting. You kind of have to work a little bit different with non actors than you do with actors that are really experienced. And so you know, there's a there's a shift there again. And then in terms of, um, camera. Yeah, it does influence, you know. And as much as the the male gaze influences the way I shoot things, you know, it's, um, like when [01:02:00] I had a scene with a character who is changing, um out out of a dress and is essentially naked for for a part of it. I was really aware about wanting to show that she's beautiful, but not wanting to have it from that male gaze perspective of it being something where she's just an object, you know, and that it's not just her body that's gorgeous. In that moment, it's kind of her vulnerability and you know, so it's kind of, um and I think that there's a level of, I guess, a queer gaze [01:02:30] for me on that and in that perspective as well, and that I am aware of the angles that are used on, you know, characters and how this can kind of influence the way they're powerful or not, or vulnerable or not, or all that sort of stuff. And so it's constantly being aware of that in relation to my characters. And and you're right. You know, a lot of that is story choice and, um, you know that story should be should be guiding the film. But I do think that I would shoot the same story slightly differently if I was shooting it for [01:03:00] a mainstream audience or for a queer audience. But we'll see. We'll see. I mean, because one of the things that that I do, um, you know, really want to achieve is to have II. I want to get a short film and a and an A list mainstream festival, and so that will be. But then I also want that short film to travel to the queer festivals throughout the world, so we'll see whether or not we can fill that up. Hey, it's good to have. I'm gonna [01:03:30] watch that closely. I was always going to be really watching it, But you know, it's this that see the creative process for me is the creative process and whether you're making a decision to like the example that you were giving with, um the short, whether you're making the decision to make sure that that wasn't going to be seen from the, you know, the male gays perspective as one thing. But to me, that's actually more about a woman than necessarily queer. And it's more about the creative choices that you subjectively [01:04:00] make as you go through your process as a filmmaker and I. I guess what I'm saying is, it's not. If you want to take the queer perspective and acknowledge that that's who your audience is, that's gonna help drive your creative process. But it doesn't matter what that once you've made what that decision is about the audience over there, everything that you do in your creative process is yeah, that's it's very subjective. It always is. Sure, Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, um, it comes back to that thing that I said, [01:04:30] Right, right at the start, in terms of being a queer filmmaker, I'm a filmmaker. That is made up of a million different parts, and each of those parts influences everything that I do. And there's times where you know, being like you say being a woman has more influence than being queer. There's other times where being queer has more influence than you know, being in my thirties or all that sort of stuff. It's kind of, um, it it all basically rolls into one. But there are moments where it is really acute [01:05:00] for for any of those parts. So, yeah, are there different energies in a screening full of queer people full of women or mainstream audience? Do you find there are different energies going on? Absolutely. Yes, Yeah, I do. I mean, I. I know there's I don't think I've been to, um I've been to two [01:05:30] if I could. The examples that I've seen the most audience participation have invariably been the outtakes that people will stand up and clap just because it was a great, great film. It was a great story, but they're more observant, whereas you wouldn't necessarily get that you When you go and see a great film in the cinema and you don't get the people will go Oh, yeah, that was good. And they're all talking to each other as they walk out. They don't stand up and clap. Um, but then if you're at a screening where, um, most of the audience are the filmmakers [01:06:00] they'll stand up and cheer and they won't go And they're laughing. Oh, there's your name and all this sort of stuff, you know? So that's actually quite a cool experience as well. And you know very much. I love the cast and crew screenings and, you know, rehashing what happened at a specific moment of any No, you didn't see it in the background. That push was a bit crap, but yeah, all that stuff. And I think, um, you know, even within there's so many different things that, you know, change an audience. When I talk [01:06:30] about kind of knowing an audience for something that I make, I still never really know them because and I try really hard to keep it in mind, um, in my process, in terms of being true to myself, because when every single person comes to a movie. They bring every experience that they've had with them to that place. And so, you know, we can all watch the same film and have a really different reaction to it and have a different article, a star, and somebody else will give it a You know, it's just it's so [01:07:00] subjective. And I guess the best that you can hope for is that you're gonna get more than three stars. And so, you know, there's a greater proportion of people will think that it was worth more than three stars than everybody thinking it was one, you know? Yeah. I think I'm, um you know, like, I'm like, the place that I'm at is that I hope that I'm happy with it. And the people that are involved in making with it making it are happy with it and all the other stuff bonus? Yeah, pretty much, you know, like it's, [01:07:30] um it's out in the world. At a certain point, you just kind of have to go. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I hope I get to experience that a lot of times and and not be disappointed at what comes back. Actually, Yeah, and you know, I mean, I'm pretty realistic at the moment and that I know I'm still going to stuff stuff up and I'm still gonna want to, but no, I'm certainly aiming not to, but, um, but you know that that you know that there's probably still going to be a reasonable difference [01:08:00] between what's in my head at the start of something to what ends up on screen at the end. And actually, in some ways, that can be awesome. Like I say, one of the things for me about film is that it's collaborative, and there's kind of there's the three stages, the script or the planning. There's the production. And then there's the editing, and film should be evolving at all of those points, you know? And so, um, one of my kind of safety nets is that I don't really want to be the writer, director and editor on stuff, because without having another influence, I'm kind [01:08:30] of limiting it to only being as good as I can be. Whereas I, you know, wanna if there's other people influencing the project at different points or me or both, I actually tried like it wasn't, um I did a little project, but not long after I come out of film school and I very quickly figured out that actually, I don't like the idea of this is being what I do this particular thing that I was working on because I was by myself and I was like, Oh, shit, this is no fun And it's also [01:09:00] it is, even though I had a really strong idea and I pulled it off and that was fine, Um, and because of the nature of what it was, somebody else's point of view or whatever, probably wouldn't have added that much or subtracted that much from it. But it's really clear for me is that I really don't like doing it like that. I would much rather be part of a team and play and grow and develop with somebody else rather than doing it by myself. It's just, yeah, because I've only got my view. And [01:09:30] in my world it might be, you know, the be all and end all but nobody else at the end gives a shit. It needs to be something that takes in other aspects, and it can play that back because the audience is always looking for themselves and what they see up on the screen it they got to see something that they have to be able to see something in them and have it reflected back at them. That's up there that's gonna like drive whether they like or dislike a film. I think, yeah, so it's not even dislike or like it's about having a connection with [01:10:00] it, engaging with it, you know, and and and that's, I guess you know where story is. My favourite films are ones that are, you know, kind of a unique experience, but a but a human experience at the same time, you know that they're, um they're universal. But yet they're grounded so specifically in one moment or place or event or situation or character. And I think it is that thing of, you know, we we go to the movies for different reasons. We make movies for different [01:10:30] reasons, whether it's, you know, for straight out in entertainment, whether it's for education or, you know, because we want to see the world from a different perspective and and and that happens on both sides of the coin, you know, and so it's It's always really interesting to to try and work out that sort of stuff from an audience perspective and especially if we're talking about, you know, how does that govern the way that we shoot? But for me, it comes back to that thing of that I shoot for for myself, I guess first, and hope that all the other [01:11:00] stuff falls into place, you can sit and watch it, watch it, watch it. Anyone else? Yeah, but But you do need the people around you, you know, like, um, I have one of the things that I struggle with so much with writing is that I spend a lot of time in isolation. I'm not real good at that. Um, writing is hard, but, um, but I But I love having written and I love it, you know, kind of taking taking it on from there as well. But it is that thing of even as a writer, I can get my work to a certain level, [01:11:30] but then I need other people. I need other people to give me some feedback and to give me some perspective because there's these things that we do, whether it's writing or you know, other parts of the film. Well, we're layering all this meaning in, and we don't even know that we're doing it because we're just so good at understanding the world around us. And so sometimes, you know, we might find that we've got all this stuff going on, that we were all busy focusing on something that was happening above it. But someone else just walks in, and that's the first thing they see. And that's because that's what they connect with. And that's what you know. They relate to their world, and and so on that level, I think [01:12:00] it's, um the more people that you've kind of got going on, the more chance that you have to elevate something that that has that complexity that you're looking for. Yeah.

IRN: 739
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/clit_fest_wellington_2013_session_6.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004253
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089547
TITLE: Session 6 - C. L. I. T Fest Wellington 2013
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Dee Dewitt; Wai Ho
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; C. L. I. T Fest Wellington 2013; Dee Dewitt; Wai Ho; Wellington; Wellington Irish Society Hall; de-transition; desexualisation; desire; fetishism; hate; identity; media; objectivisation; pansexual; polyamory; pornography; queer; representation; sex; sex work; transgender; transition
DATE: 2 June 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington Irish Society Hall, 10 Fifeshire Avenue, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the session: Desire as social currency and how desire is constructed around stigmatised and non-normative bodies. Participants include Dee Dewitt and Wai Ho.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi, I'm Dean. Um I'm just gonna read some stuff that I wrote pretty much at the moment. So whilst, um, desire for normative bodies is just taken for granted, whether that desire is like hetero or homosexual, um, desire for trans or other stigmatised bodies seen as possessing like non nor bodies, seems to reside in the category of weird or [00:00:30] at this, like, unintelligible or some kind of kink to most people in including the queer scene. Um, when this person desires, um, expresses desire for a trans woman in general, it is like regarded as a fit. Terms exist for such a desire, including training Shaka Admira, Training Hawk, Trans fan, Trans catcher. Um, the last one, which is the only one to actually involve, like, the little like Hatch. And it's [00:01:00] a newer term. Um, it's Yeah. It's a pretty much a gaggle of derogatory terms of having like some, um, and derogatory, and as they can be when they are seen as coming from CIS guys or anyone for that matter, whose ideas about Trans woman have come predominantly from trans porn and have never had any real encounter with a woman like myself. [00:01:30] Um, Yeah, I don't believe that It is the identity of the people who have the desire for transform, which gives terms like these being finished reading. Um, it's more about the fact that it's just about Trans and Trans are seen as being inherently fin or kink objects. Being a trans woman and having sort of a fetish object imposed upon me allows me very little social currency with which to work with much below the [00:02:00] object status placed over as a whole. Well, it's not only trans one who have such status that seems to be universal for all trans women. Um, so, um, in general, like, um, in a general way, this is how I see, like, you know, order of agency and object. Pretty much everyone kind of knows this stuff. I think where, um, although all of the categories are, of course, subject to other [00:02:30] discrimination and stigma placed on things like, um, colour and weight ability, sexual orientation and class. Um, as these ethnics lead to varying amounts of objectification and fetishization. Um, so guys have status and agency in our society, which holds C men as the norm from which non CIS men are judged by, um, in which, from which everyone else is judged [00:03:00] by as well, um, allowing them to be seen as subjective, to go unquestioned and to act upon others. Trans guys and trans masculine peeps begin to receive some of this agency, and so therefore, you aren't seen so much as being objects. But, of course, are objects that size for that as well. Um, I think, um, that within the queer and feminist [00:03:30] scenes that, um, masculine and um, butcher are also like, afforded more of this agency that, um, masculine in itself is in part about agency. It affords agency and gives people agency. Um whereas women are seen as objects to be acted upon, and and women are considered, um, to to be even more objects like, um, seem [00:04:00] to be like as complicit in their objectified status. Um, fewer men, um, have reduced agency and therefore can be acted upon and are more likely to receive, um, verbal and physical violence due to their non normative gender expression, which has the effect of slowly not seeing them as real men. And trans women, regardless of their flavour or specific gender expression, are seen [00:04:30] as objects just as women are, but with the element of being non normative about objects. And is this fear of being non normative objects in our society, which leads trans women to being seen as inherently fit desire for a finish? Objects such as myself pretty much can't be seen as anything other than non No. Um, even when even when people do express desire for me, [00:05:00] it can sometimes come with a heck of a lot of baggage. Um, it's is it really that hard to consider the possibility of the attraction to a Trans? And am I really that Unluck? Um, how many times am I going to here? I find you really attractive, but I don't know how it would work. Or I don't know what I would do with you Or how do you even have sex? Is my body that much of a mystery [00:05:30] like, isn't it like, you know, find the parts you like about my body and then touch the shit out of them. Mhm. If I'm not into it, then trust me. I'll tell you, um, my body may not be exactly like those that you've had experience with before, but it's still a body that can give a pleasure. Um, and how am I supposed to deal with this? The knowledge that even some people who I've considered friends ask [00:06:00] questions which insinuate that they don't understand my relationships, how people's minds bob at the very idea of sex and desire beyond normative male and female bodies. The specifics of such questions and the assumptions that drive them, are things I wouldn't be dealing with if I wasn't trans. In some ways, I feel sorry for people who feel the need to ask such questions, like how limited their imagination must be by socially constructed normative desire through the prevalence [00:06:30] of such thinking. Uh, though the prevalence of such thinking does make it an effort not to internalise these same ideas. But I can not be desired in any non way, but that there is no desire for me at all and thinking about this. I started thinking about how it was possible for me to have a healthy relationship. In fact, I've had many healthy relationships in the past with standing How is it possible for people? How is it possible for me to have a relationship that [00:07:00] is seen externally as being healthy and good. Good. Um, how is it possible to date a trans woman like myself and know that that can be good? That can be awesome. I mean, I'm a great girlfriend for real. How did someone who is interested in me deal with the fact that there's a proportion of PE a large proportion of people out there who will see the [00:07:30] relationship as a fetish relationship, or at least somewhat confusing the language available for them to describe? Their attraction is leading with derision. Sure, they can talk instead about their attraction to me, specifically, rather than attraction to trans women in general. But a lot of the time when that happens, I think the language that people use is the language, which is inherently sis language, like, [00:08:00] you know, it. It blankets over the like the fact that I am actually trans. I'm a trans woman. Um, no. And it kind of occurred to me while I was thinking about this, that I've never actually seen any form of media where a relationship with a Trans woman was depicted in a positive light. Mhm. I've seen. I've never seen in [00:08:30] the media a sexual relationship with a trans woman depicted in a positive light, and I pay attention to these things. Um, the media coverage of transwomen sexuality runs at two extremes, the first of which are like newspaper and magazine stories about trans women generally white, middle aged and middle class who were married before they transitioned and managed to stay together through such a traumatic change. Um, but are now really [00:09:00] nothing more than companions or besties with no sexual contact like completely desex ized. Um, the second, as you might well expect, is the mountains of trans women porn out there where trans women are fucked and fuck at anyone and everything, mainly for the consumption of straight malls. You know, best of both worlds. Very little secret, hyper sexualized. [00:09:30] Just as I sometimes feel that things like Disney and porn have strong connections to the way that we're taught to consider love and our sexual desires. A complete lack of representation within the former category and a complete overrepresentation in the latter leads to a knowledge of trans women, which eliminates our personhood. And it seems that sometimes within the queer scene that the way that, um, queer feminists attempt to deal [00:10:00] with the hyper sexualization of trans women is to move in the completely opposite direction to sexualize trans woman to see people not as sexual beings in order to move beyond or perhaps to not actually have to consider the things which function behind that fetishization and hyper sexualization, which again eliminates the personhood. And I kind of feel like this has to do with, like, misgivings about [00:10:30] attitudes to, um, pornography and sex work and sex workers. Yeah, at this point, uh, can you hear me? Yeah, that's right. Um, so when I thought about doing this thing that talk that, um, [00:11:00] yeah, my brain got in a real knot and it's it's not a knotted, So I'm just I'm just gonna What I'm gonna do is kind of, um, share with you some, I guess, stories or dynamics, and then present the knot, and then you can sort it out and and don't ask me. Yeah, um, so, uh, I guess I started thinking about the currency of desire because that's what she told me to think about. And, [00:11:30] um, and in a way, I guess, um, you know, queer and trans communities, um, or any I guess kind of marginalised group coming together is, in a sense, kind of one aspect is, is around the creation of desire and affirmation of ourselves and saying, Hey, yeah, we are cool. We're not How XY and Z portray us, you know? So there's there's a reclamation in a sense, um, and [00:12:00] and so I guess that has currency. And I think some of the the dangers become when we're like, yeah, it's so cool to be I don't know, I'm just be queer and and then this is how you have to be queer. And then this is how this is what is then desirable within being queer. And, you know, historically, I guess within queer um uh, you know, you you had to be butch and and then you weren't allowed [00:12:30] to be butch and you had to be endogenous. And then, you know, So there's been kind of different types of currency, and I think that we've we we can also see that throughout society. So you know, the the ideal woman now and then. Look at that 100 years ago. Look at that. 1000 years ago, that has changed. So we can kind of accept in some senses that our desire or at least mainstream desire maybe not. My desire, um, is constructed. So we understand that. And and that's why I think we [00:13:00] and and not only desire constructed, but I guess hatred is constructed as well. So we understand on that continuum, you know, if there's really bad images, really hateful images of a group of people, we understand that people see them and go, Oh, OK, I will think that these people are all terrible, you know? So we understand that that dynamic happens. I think it can be a bit tricky then when um, we like, oh, so that happens to those people. But that doesn't happen to me, because my desire [00:13:30] that I have is is pure, you know, it is. It's what I feel, you know. It's my personal preference that isn't tarnished or polluted by these mainstream concepts of, um what is beautiful, what is attracted, that kind of thing. Um, so that's when I got quite confused. So, um yeah, and I'll talk around the confusion a little bit. I think, Um, some ways I tried to [00:14:00] think through the confusion was, um I thought about demographics. So at some point, um, I grew up in Wellington and, uh, did anti racist stuff blah, blah, blah. And then at some point, I was like, Oh, man, most of the people I've dated have been white have been here and I thought, Oh, do do I find, um, Asian people attractive. And then I think at that stage I knew about four queer Asian people and I I was thinking, Oh, no, [00:14:30] I've I've internalised racism so much. And I've become completely colonised that to the extent my my whole desire has become colonised, and I can only find people attracted. And then I went on a trip to Sydney and the demographics there are really different. And I thought, Oh, you I don't don't have to worry about that. So I think sometimes, um So sometimes I think we can limit ourselves about what we might or might not be attracted to by kind [00:15:00] of what's around, you know? So if you only get, see one type of thing, how do you know that you might not like other types of people? So, yeah, I think that's an interesting thing around representation. Um, the other thing I was kind of thinking about is when we state, uh, I like these types of people. What are our motivations, or why do we Why do we do it or why do I do it? You know, um and then when? And then I think [00:15:30] the other thing that I thought and we had chuckle about this outside I was like, Oh, well, I guess if I had a push, I If someone asked, I identify as pansexual and I've always been attracted to people of both genders. And when I found out that there were more than two genders, I was like, Oh, yeah, yeah, I. I understand that. And then I thought, Oh, but, you know, maybe that's my privilege. Maybe I don't I don't understand how you can place limitations, because [00:16:00] that's my experience. And then I thought, What if What if you are straight? You know what? If you are gay and you then does that become not legitimate? You know, Is there another kind of, um, limitation that people have placed in themselves? Or and then I don't. You know, I can't be like, well, straight people don't exist or whatever and and it. Yeah, I think it's tricky when we're kind of talking about desire. And we're talking about the limitations of that because then I think historically, [00:16:30] at least with lesbians, there's been a response of Oh, but how do you know? You know, maybe you just haven't met the right man all that kind of stuff, and and sometimes that languaging or or second guessing of of people. Yeah. So I think it's I I'm really confused about how when you state that you're into something, what that does, you know. So, um, I might say I'm really into these types of people. And what's my motivation for saying [00:17:00] that? Who am I saying that to? And does that exclude other people? So say that if I'm like, yeah, I'm really into gingerhead people. Does that mean that what I'm not saying is I don't like brunettes, you know, and sometimes it isn't. But there have been instances, I think, you know around, I guess train stuff where that's true. People have said, Oh, well, I'm only attracted to blah, blah, this type of people and this type of people [00:17:30] with the inference that that's that's not that and then the other way that I decided to have a think about. It was I thought about desire as a puddle, and I thought, Oh, no, that's a bit gross. I'll think about something more nice, like a river or something like that. So, um yeah. So where where I've kind of got to it at the moment is say that desire is like a river. But, um, we have, you know, um, a whole bunch of societal constructs [00:18:00] which, of course, don't affect me, but just affect those other people that aren't as enlightened as our communities. Of course. Um And And what of those those, um, barriers or those representations or those stereotypes? Blah, blah, bla bla, um are kind of well, like barricades or dams. Or, you know, so they direct desire in a certain way where that way might be. And so what would it look like if we [00:18:30] took? If we didn't have those, the river might still flow in a certain direction. It might be completely the same and, you know, but it might not not be, you know, because you don't want to kind of get into a position which you do get into a position, but it's a tricky position where you're like, Well, if you're attracted to I don't know what's a real, um, a stereotype to do If I'm not. I'm really attracted to tall, dark, handsome men that are able bodied CIS gendered middle class, um, with [00:19:00] not too much hair, but a little bit of hair to be kind of masculine enough and not bald. And, um, with you know, of who's 6 ft two, there'd be a tendency, I guess, to kind of say, Oh, your your desire is constructed, you know? And then is that kind of real stink as well, you know, to be like, Oh, no, you don't actually like those. You two don't actually like each other. It's just because you're you're operating off this, you know, mainstream, construct [00:19:30] of who is attractive. And that's how you found each other. And that's the only reason you like each other. So I think, yeah, I guess for me, that's kind of the tension that I'm quite confused about about, um, in a sense, uh, I guess, um, social constructs and our agency, and not that they can be separated out, But what is the What's the navigation or what's the the mission of our, you know, innate [00:20:00] pure desire and our personal preference, Um, to, you know, societal constructs. Because, yeah, I think you get that. You get it on grinder or, um, other dating sites where people like, you know, people say things like, Oh, you know, uh, no fat, no, no Asians Or, um, you know, and then when people have people up about it, they're like, 00, that's just my preference. You know, Don't start. Don't be Start pressing me about my preference. That's just a preference that I have. [00:20:30] I'm just not attracted to, you know. And so we we understand that there's that tension. So yeah, that's where I'm real real confused. Um, I'll just look at my other notes. Oh, and just kind of back to currency. I think it's important to, um, while we're uplifting, something that that uplifting has can set up its own dynamics. So sometimes you can get into a place where suddenly, um, you have to be sexual and then asexuals [00:21:00] are uncool. Or if you're talking about, um, poly or B DS M or, um, being vegan or not, a vegan how that then you know your participation in that new cool thing, which was marginalised. But because it's marginalised, then we like it. So it's cool. And then then if you're not into that, then you stink, and you're not as radical as everybody else. You know how that kind of, um, works as well? Um, [00:21:30] yeah. And then I think kind of back to why, Why we say, Oh, I'm really attracted to, you know, camp guys or I'm really attracted to Butch Woman. And And what are the power dynamics around that? And who are we saying that to and why? Why are we stating that? Because we do. You know, we have a goss up with our friends, and that's what happens. We're like, Oh, blah, blah, blah. You know, um, and I think thinking about, um, some of that [00:22:00] is just an expression, but I think some of that is also an exclusion. So when we think about the exclusion, um, how do we express that? And so I was kind of thinking about being Polly, learning to say to people instead of saying, Oh, yeah, you're cracking on me, and I'm sorry. I've got a partner. So when you're poly, you kind of have to say I'm not interested, you know? And it's it's pretty honest. [00:22:30] Hey, so so you don't say 00, sorry. You know, I'm I'm I'm not into brunettes. That's why we can't hook up. Yeah, so it's kind of some. I wonder if sometimes we make these categories and then say, uh uh to people and they're not actually about the categories. They're more about not being able to be like, Oh, hey, I just don't have that vibe with you, you know, or whatever. Yeah, And so that's the other kind of thing I was thinking about. Oh, yeah. And [00:23:00] then I got I got thinking about, um, straight people and gay people again, and, um and then the statement of that. So if I say I'm attracted to men, in a sense, it's kind of it's a huge generalisation that almost becomes untrue upon interrogation. So if I say I'm attracted to men, I'm I'm not attracted to most men, so you know, there will probably be a huge proportion of men I wouldn't be attracted to. Yet [00:23:30] I would still say I'm gay and I'm attracted to men or yeah. So then I was kind of thinking about all that, and I got really confused, and I was thinking, I'm Yeah, I'm glad I don't have to say all that stuff, but so yeah, don't ask me any questions, because I'm really confused. So that's all I have to say. Really? Yeah, [00:24:00] yeah, I'm just kind of like, um, like I thought, like, um, like, during today, I've kind of been thinking about this this panel, and like, kind of where it was kind of coming from with the the the question of like, um how desire is constructed around like nonna stigmatised bodies. And it kind of led me to, like, wonder [00:24:30] like, where is the space for me to actually even talk about my own desires? Like it? It really seems to me like a lot of time that as a trans woman, like actually, either people just like, make like assumptions or they just like, don't care at all like no one actually like, wants to hear about what my desires are [00:25:00] like, Yeah, and so it's I know it's kind of interesting to hear you like talking about, like, kind of like all the different kinds of desire that there is when, like, a lot of time, I think like, I've kind of internalised that myself to the point where I just don't feel like I can have desire. Do you mean like, I'm very concern about what your is like with a partner? Or do you mean, like, as a trans woman that people don't wanna make like friends [00:25:30] with? I don't want to talk about, you know, things like gossip about people you are into and thinking of things like that. Um, I mean, I guess they are. No, I think like, um like, I still involve myself and and like, kind of like talking about people that I kind of think, uh, hot or something, But like that, [00:26:00] I don't know like that. It's some kind of like either like, either it's either it's an internalised block or that, like, I don't actually have any. Like like, I don't even conceive of desire like that anymore. Or like I'm unable to like because of just like, I don't [00:26:30] know like that. If I consider things for like long enough, then I don't really think there's a single category of person that, like, I couldn't possibly find myself attracted to, um, so it could possibly be that or and But I also do feel that there is something in the way that I'm told that I should desire as a trans woman, which kind of allows me not to be able to fully express like like I know, like, [00:27:00] um, specifics. So categorical kind of things. I'll say something that I'll try and make my time. Um, I just wanted to, But you're not You tangle, um, and that, um, yeah, that thing of, like, category, you know, categories and non categories. And who you and saying what you're attracted to [00:27:30] or, um or not or because for most of my life, I've just been like it doesn't matter, you know? It's just the person. It's it's, you know, And then and then recently I was like, No, actually, it's not. You know, there's my desire at the moment and, you know, things change and is configured in particular ways. And it was really it was so liberating to discover that. And it was much more liberating than coming out was, or anything [00:28:00] else. Actually, anything else in my whole life it was fucking awesome. And, um and I did that, um um fam slam, you know, talk about birch and fam and and all of that stuff. And I had a conversation with a a really close friend afterwards who was just really, um, yeah, really challenging about that. Like, why do you have to put yourself in a category? Why do you want to be in a category? And I felt so uncool and so, [00:28:30] you know, because it was like, Yeah, it's not. Um yeah, that's that's how it felt. And for me, it's a category that, like IF, is a category that I've really resisted for a long time And then, like it's been kind of almost more of a process of getting over. Um, you know, shame and self hatred and all of those things that are coming out was and so it's sort of, um and that's that's just for me and I, a place [00:29:00] that I used to work for a long time ago when we did our training as mental health stuff, and, um, our boss had this saying where it was something like, I completely believe in what I'm saying at the time, and I also reserved the right to absolutely change my mind. And I think that, um, yeah, I've always remembered that. And I think, um, that kind of resonates me. But right, right now it's like, That's what Yeah, After a lifetime of not putting myself into a category and not getting [00:29:30] what I want, like, that's Yeah, that's for me Really important. Because I want to get what I want and you know, and have desire and have it satisfied. And, um, that's yeah, for me finding that's been really cool. Just part of New York. Yeah. Um, yeah, it was just because I've been talking a lot, um, recently about women only spaces, and I was wondering, [00:30:00] I'm gonna put this in the best possible way. But I was wondering how, having access to more women, women only spaces first, uh, having that experience that may not have been past your growing up as a child and like, the pyjama party thing. Or, you know, all that sort of fun stuff and or going to a bar and chatting to your girlfriends about you know, about that desire about that, what [00:30:30] you want or what you like And, you know, um, whether having access to that would actually maybe be a positive, Having have a positive impact on the way that you see your own desire and the way that you can express it, maybe, I don't know, like, um, I kind of feel like, at times that, um I mean, like, are you talking about like, Just like, like on a like, kind of, like, small level with like, [00:31:00] friends, or like, kind of like women's only space and stuff? Because, like all the times I find, like, women's only spaces to actually be some of the most like, kind of, um, anxiety driving spaces that I go into just, um, due to, um, kind of so much in the, um, dialogue, um, from, like, radical fans and stuff which completely like delegitimize me. So, um, [00:31:30] I think I meant on a social level rather than physical activity level. But yeah, I guess that that sort of thing happens in social spaces as well as um, yeah, I don't know. Let's try it. So as I was just wondering, try to move. I'll do a bit annoying thing where so, like, how? [00:32:00] How much of, um who is desired or how you desire people as to do who is painted as normal one who was painted as like we did. And I remember, um, you know, maybe 2009 having this discussion about like, uh, about race and about, um, you know, what are the racial stereotypes attached to, like lovers of different races and like there's a lot. But then, like with people, there is no stereotype because park could just work hard and be whatever they would be. And, um and then also, um, [00:32:30] and I think about that and also, um, so that, like, you know, particular so that, like, you know, the dominant culture is normal and all the everyone else is kind of weird in some way. That's like, Oh, that's interesting. Or like Oh, that's hard or whether it's like, Oh, and, um And then also I remember, um, discussing about watching Trans woman porn and being like, that's really hot. Oh, is everyone gonna think something bad about me? [00:33:00] Is everyone gonna think I'm being fishy? And then it's like, Well, that's really fucked, because if I was like, I like watching like porn, everyone will be like, Yeah, that's really normal and hot. And if I'm like I like watching trans like porn, that's also normal and hot and it's kind of like, but it might not be seen that way. And so there's this whole, like who is painted as normal people that we should be into and who's painted as, like, unusual, weird people or, you know, fetish or, um, for LA Yeah, I guess it's fair to say that people are, you know, that's a thing [00:33:30] that's a thing to be into Brown people, or it's a thing to be into, you know, like that sort of thing. So I guess in Crystal and I think there's also, like a whole, like dialogue around kind of desire, which makes things into fetishes as well. Like, it may not actually necessarily be a fetish, but it's painted as being that Yeah, yeah, [00:34:00] that. Because it's like, outside of like, you know, like the normative structures that it must be a fetish. Yeah, I was kind of thinking, um, yeah, two things. I was at the same conference in Sydney. Um, I went out to, uh, to found this other gay Asian guy, and this Aboriginal gay guy and we went out and, um, whatever. But at some point, we were kind of he was We were We were at the pub, and, um, the Asian [00:34:30] guy said to me, He's like, we're talking about who was in fashion, and, um and I. I can't remember who it was, but he was like, Oh, yeah, you know, Indian guys are so in right now and he's like, When are Asian guys going to be back in again? And the Aboriginal guy? So it's your turn. I know it'll come around. Don't worry. Um, and the the Aboriginal guy who was a bit older than us was like, Well, you guys were last decade and before [00:35:00] that, and he he I don't know, but he managed kind of list off, you know? First it was Middle Eastern guys. Then it was, um, Indian guys. Then it was Pacific Island guys. Then it was, you know, So it was this whole kind of who was in at at specific times based on whatever. And then we were like, Ah, when are white white guys in? We're like they're never in, you know, it was like Ha ha. but at the same time, they're never in because they're never out. You know, it's, um you are all there and we are the lookers where the [00:35:30] consumers will, you know, will put you in our shopping bag, that kind of thing. And I think there's definitely around activist communities where everyone's so, you know, hypersensitive to make sure they're an ally to everyone and everything. Um, then, you know, it's that thing about being invisible until you're hyper visible. You know, you're pushed aside until the spotlight comes down on you, sometimes simultaneously in a weird way. And then then you're like, [00:36:00] Oh, you know, are you Are you dating me to prove you're not racist or you dating me to prove you're not transphobic Or, you know, can I take this person off in my list on my Allied checks sheet to make sure that you know? But, yeah, I don't know. Who knows? It's all just confusing. I don't really think that happens with Trans Woman. It's too out there unless you get um, [00:36:30] I think the problem with talking about desire is that Trans women's bodies are so simple. And, um, there's so much gender sexualization surrounding genitals stuff that you can't think that, like the whole thing with, uh, the woman scenes where trans men are seen as, um, not violating your lesbian identity. That Trans Woman would be, [00:37:00] um, because that one small part of you is so masculine that apparently we just disembodied gentles. And that's what people were attracted to, apparently just disembodied. Yeah, I was kind of like, um, thinking about this a bit earlier, where I was like, um, you know, like like as like, a transform like we or like, [00:37:30] when is when? When do I get that space where I actually get to talk about my body like and like, apart from the times where, like, it's kind of like, forced upon me, you know, the the Times where, like, like, where? What are When do I get the times which are actually safe for me to talk about my body or for my body to be talked about? And those spaces are like so few and far between? [00:38:00] Um, I like pretty much like I find that the only space that I have for that is just with like, maybe like three or four people I know you know, like as soon as you know, you actually start. I don't know, Like I was thinking about like, um, how, like, it's OK for, like, uh, a system pretty much to be, like, suck my dick, you know? And that's like, really empowering or something for some people, you know. But if I'm just, like, [00:38:30] go suck my dick, then like people immediately kind of go Oh, that's awkward. You know what? Because I actually have a dick And like Like, why is it like that? You know, how is that so awkward? You know, like, why is there so much stigma around like my body, you know, like, where is the space where I actually get to, like, own and be in full possession of my body, where I don't have to, like, be in denial about what my physicality is like? [00:39:00] Yeah, pretty much that's That's the That's the only space. But then even there, there's so little, you know, we serve here and don't really often necessarily get the chance to come together and talk about that sort of stuff that we don't even really know how we describe our It's like, um, [00:39:30] I don't know, some people may have seen the comment. I looked on the website, but like, uh, and some dialogue, which has emerge, Um, like they were surprised that some trans women don't actually refer to that party. I know that, Yeah, I mean, even [00:40:00] a Chinese people is, is not, is just Such people are terrified of well, and I think, like sometimes, you know, like when you rename body parts sometimes it's about, like, kind of reclamation of gender. But also it's about, like, kind of normalising things as well. For other people, like, you know, like to [00:40:30] talk about like my generals, like as my and stuff. It's like kind of like empowering because it, like, kind of like, you know, like, kind of feeds into, like my own idea and my status of my identity as a woman. But at the same time, it's it's really like eccentric, mhm time here. I've been thinking about listening apple being terrified of your body [00:41:00] and trying to put it into a normal things, Um, and like body modification in general, just concerned about what your home body is doing. You just want to do something you want to get a tattoo. You want some words I find similar to me? Um and, um, I really hate the word being your word de transition. Like, um, I think it's a scare tactic. Scare tactic. Word [00:41:30] used often, Um, by people who want to put off your transition. Um, like, if I wanted to transition be transitioned whatever you want. If I wanted to transition to be a female, I won't be able to do that right now. And I don't want anyone to talk about Oh, look what you've fucked up your body. You shouldn't have transitioned. You shouldn't have been taking testosterone like whatever. This is my fucking body. It's not ruined. Um, yeah, and that's I think that's [00:42:00] about hating your way. Um, yeah, I think it's a big thing in the media as well. At the moment, they're actually on the hunt for people who are, like, de transitioning and stuff so that they can, like, kind of scare more like, create more kind of like bad press for trans people and trans like medical practises. Um and yeah, that's kind of terrifying. Um especially like I mean, if you like, [00:42:30] I don't know, I guess because It's like completely blown out of proportion. You know, it's because the the number of like, you know, if you look at like, kind of like statistics and stuff about the number of people who actually who like, kind of don't feel comfortable once they have transitioned and, like, you know, like and choose to like transition again. That versus number of people who it actually like has such benefits for It's like, you know, it's like [00:43:00] you know. So there was a question at the front. Yes, I thought, I don't know this. I just I. I think I was thinking when you were speaking about about Messiah. You know how it's, you know, today as currency and it's, um, yeah, like I don't, [00:43:30] um, like, I find it really hard to find myself desirable, like That's not That's not something I and it's not something that's you're not available to me. Images of myself as desirable don't you're not really out there. Well, there are some of them, but but because there's so many negative ones, it's like the ones that are out there are just triggering now, like, [00:44:00] you know, if I do see trans women represented as attractive. It's That's something. I've seen it because it's because I don't I don't believe it. And I think that that's I guess. I mean, I suppose this is a question like How did like in terms of having perhaps developing culture here weird just isn't so. You know something you trade as much as isn't so good, you know, isn't about power [00:44:30] like, Hm. I think that that's, you know, not not being desirable isn't just about you know how other people perceive you, I suppose, and how I I don't get I don't get a whole but it's, I don't know, maybe other people have thoughts on that. It's not something I've talked about with other people. I like [00:45:00] to hear them. I think it's sometimes really hard to like find yourself desirable when, like all of the constructs around where you might be desirable. I like things that you find really kind of incredibly problematic structures. Um, [00:45:30] yeah, I don't know, like, I think it's like an incredible, like kind of fight, like as or something like as a transform to actually try to believe that you're attracted [00:46:00] just because there is so much like negativity and stigma. Um, I guess my question. That's also I guess it's kind of bad thing. I was thinking about how, um, there's been a lot of, I guess, with feminism and stuff. There's been a lot of, uh I mean, like, just technology that actually get pushed out a whole lot of like, the main, Um, But then, like so there's been a lot of like, [00:46:30] um, self empowering around sex and desire and stuff by being all like, um, by having heaps of stuff about heaps of black body positive stuff and heaps of talking about Oh, you know, we can say that we can and we can talk about the ways that we like being fucked and like all the ways that we like to fuck and kind of, um, a lot of you know, there's a lot of or in circles that I've done. There's a lot of like talking about that stuff, and I was thinking about how there's not a lot of that, [00:47:00] you know, not like I don't hear a lot of that happening with um, particularly with trans women, also with transpires that, like maybe so much less extinct because a lot of Trans guys are coming out of those lesbian kind of or those like, um, those? Yeah. Yeah. So there's like, quite a lot of, uh, maybe or like for me anyway, [00:47:30] like, you know, um, I've come from lots of queer women, queer women being like Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, This is the way that we like, And this is how we like to be loud about it, and we're gonna be naked or be naked in the letters. So, like as a trans Mexican person, I'm really, really comfortable with talking about my body with being naked, blah, blah, blah, and with doing that in quite a public way, And I have a lot of support for that. But then, like, um, it seems like for trans on, there's not [00:48:00] that, you know, like, there's a lot of, um, a lot of that same community are not, um, you know, like, some of it's very I mean, I guess it's that gender essential thing, Probably that you're talking about New Zealand where it's, like, really like yay and yay, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, which is great, and cats are great. But also it's really like of people who I would say have a vagina. But I'm gonna say I'm actually I'm born with a vagina. [00:48:30] Um are all like Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's there's kind of a, um you know, like what you were saying about how being like I'm into this automatically says I'm not into everything else. It's kind of like, you know, there's a lot of like, yeah, like, where is that space where transformer can be like, This is what my body's like and this is how I feel about it. And yeah, it's fucking awesome. And like, and space where everyone's like Yeah, fuck, yeah, that that's crap. You know, I guess I Yeah, obviously [00:49:00] it doesn't exist and you, like, on its own, But like, um, that the the having space to talk about your own body and having other people being like, yeah, those are good bodies, you know, is really fucking empowering. And like being able to talk about the ways that you like being sexual and stuff is really empowering. I really want that to I really want that to exist a whole lot more. You know where we [00:49:30] don't make those kind of other than where we where we have space for? For all things, you know, space and where that's all held and all way. Yeah, Yeah, that'd be great. I, I don't know, like I. I mean, when when you're, like in a community, which is like, um you know, like, divided as to whether you should even be taken seriously, like, [00:50:00] you know, like, how How's that actually gonna happen? Yeah, Um, five more minutes. So there is there any other questions or comments on? I just want to make a comment. Uh, mostly about what you were talking about. Why social norms mesh with our desire. And it's hard to know. [00:50:30] Um, you know how to separate the two. And I think that, um, gender expression can be thought of in a similar way. And yeah, like, you know, certain expressions have certain advantages in society. Yeah, I hope you. Yeah, that might own a small [00:51:00] Yeah, so Yes. OK, um, I'd like to think about how attraction changes over time and how that maybe part of the way you can figure out what you're actually into as opposed to what society or your friends or with your culture thinks you should be into is watching how your desires change and your [00:51:30] experiences and who you meet. And I don't know if I'm formulating this very well. But people see the idea. I put your hand up now. Um, yeah, this is just a comment for, like, some of the people in the room, like, people have gone through stuff that, um the only times I feel like I have been [00:52:00] in social currency is not so not how you feel. So when I'm gender fucking, and that's what I should, but that's it. It's not it. Then, um, so I don't want to fuck all the time. Um, yeah, but I wish I had kind of, like, you know, like, got a lot of the [00:52:30] affect. Your comments. Oh, I wish they weren't. So I wish I wasn't sexualized. Like and I know often it comes from the the best place. He, um like, and it's my friend's family. That's really cool that you cross or like, you know, I just, um yeah, but I don't do it anymore, And it's probably every time [00:53:00] I'm, like, really happy with my own appearances. But, you know, I can't do it up there safely and they can't do it. They here safely. I think some of that is to do with stuff that de talked about about cross dressing, making [00:53:30] hyper sexualization that it's like it feels appropriate to say, Wow, Mark, you look hot when you're wearing hot pants in a way that wouldn't perhaps feel appropriate to say that, you know, it gives a permission, I guess. Which is quite. I think it was just fear of speaking. Can I say I'm [00:54:00] just gonna say something about, um, you know, with what? In my experience, you know, with sex and desire and intimacy, you actually, we have to be able to fuck it up. You know, we have to be able to make mistakes and say the wrong thing. And, um, friends be forgiven and get to know each other. And, um, yeah, because otherwise it's like you can't ask for anything and you're too scared and and for me when I'm too scared, because [00:54:30] I'm gonna say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing or touch the wrong thing or whatever. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing fucking happens because it's like you're not actually communicating and there's no intimacy, and it's just frozen and no one's gonna come and no one's going to have a good time. That's what I'm really interested in is like, How do you create that space? Which is Yeah, is safe and is loving and is compassionate and is informed, but also where you can fuck up Because I know with my [00:55:00] lovers that is the only way we've got to any kind of intimacy. And I've fucked up heaps of times and said the wrong thing and you touch the wrong thing So you know, whatever. And it's like that to me, that conversation about that that is intimacy and yeah, yeah, I think it's, um you know, we think we know what bodies are like because our society tells us, you know, this is what this kind of person [00:55:30] is like. And it's such crap, you know, because it's not until you are intimate with someone that you don't know. No one's good and bad, you know, because it's like every it. Every new person you meet is completely different anyway. And I'm guessing we need to break up. All right. Thank you.

IRN: 738
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089546
TITLE: Session 5 - C. L. I. T Fest Wellington 2013
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Hana Plant; Ruth Amato
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; C. L. I. T Fest Wellington 2013; Changing Minds; Crunk Feminist Collective (CFC); Hana Plant; Mental Health Foundation; Māori; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; Pakeha; Ruth Amato; Wellington; Wellington Irish Society Hall; Yolo Akili; abuse; assimilation; bipolar disorder; class; crime; depression; diversity; drugs; equality; feminism; gangs; institutionalisation; mana; manaakitanga; mental health; othering; peer support; poverty; prison; privilege; racism; rape; sexism; sexual abuse; shame; social welfare; social work; stereotypes; stigma; suicide; therapeutic communities; transgender; wellbeing
DATE: 2 June 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington Irish Society Hall, 10 Fifeshire Avenue, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the session: Class panel - social stigma, mental health and institutionalisation. Participants include Hana Plant, Nic and Ruth Amato.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: [00:00:30] um [00:01:00] um um, the first, the way I want to frame my talk about class is around, [00:01:30] um, collective well-being, I guess. Um, because classes class makes collective well-being impossible on a material level, Um, and on a social level as well. But, um, that's really the foundation of where I'm coming from in terms of Plus, I guess I should introduce myself in my own quite complex relationship with class. Um, the Maori side of my family is actually [00:02:00] the rich side, and I inherited money from that side of my family and as a as a result, I have my own house and I have some land, and, um, I derive a huge amount of material privilege from that. And when my mum died when I was five, I went to live with my dad who, um, has pretty much always been jobless. And so I'm on that side. I'm pretty much a third generation beneficiary. Um, [00:02:30] I, I feel in terms of my upbringing. Dad was my primary care of the end. He suffered a lot from the social stigma of class. He also really are resourceful and proud in a sense, um, of, um, coming from and close to the land. So a lot of the pain of, um poverty, I guess, was ameliorated by the fact we [00:03:00] had a really good relationship with the land and the sea. And so I never wanted for food, ever. And, um, but socially, I think it's always been the area that I've felt, um, disadvantaged the most socially, For one reason or another. Um, my upbringing was extremely violent. Um, my dad had a middle class girlfriend, and class has always felt gendered to me because [00:03:30] of that. Um, I love loyalty to him on that basis. And I saw his pain, I guess, on many levels that came about because of class, um, and the power dynamic between them, which was a class. There's class power dynamic between them. There's also a gendered power dynamic between them, which, um, I felt really keenly, so it's always felt like feminism. Class struggle has always felt a little bit separate for me, and in some ways, [00:04:00] those discourses have come apart. Um, and I've always been passionate about bringing them together. As a young person, I gravitated to a middle class dominated social scenes. Um, I felt safer. There from violence. Um, of my upbringing. I really wanted to get away from Logan. I was quite ashamed of it, but it sort of just keep resurfacing and resurfacing. I've, um Now I'm in a situation where I've found myself, [00:04:30] um, together with another Maori working class Maori, and it's never felt life has never felt so. I've never felt so much at home, and I've never felt so scared in the same way I did as when I was a child. So, um, because of the things that enter our lives because of colonisation and class coming together. So, yeah, that's me. And like, a little bit about my journey, Um, in terms of class. So [00:05:00] what I really want to talk about today is our collective well-being I want to talk about and, um, as concepts to help us, uh, achieve this. I guess. Um, we know that class divides us as Maori. We know that class divides us. Um, it's, uh, really interesting to go to and, [00:05:30] uh, my and stuff like that, and see that in action and see how that class interests on a really material level are really splitting us as a people in terms of what we want and what we want for our healing in terms of colonisation. Um, but I also think it's really interesting the way upward mobility can mitigate some of the racism that we experience [00:06:00] as Maori. And that's much more so for people who are more obviously Maori than myself. So I find it easy to pass as a and I get privileged from that. And it's not something that it's affected me hugely. But I've really noticed that with my I noticed that when we're walking down the street people, um, the the reactions of fear and obviously a big Maori guy people the reactions of fear [00:06:30] as well as, um, patronising attitudes, people pulling their kids out of the way. White women getting into the lift and white women go to the other side of the fucking lift. You know, it's like, what? What is this that we're dealing with about a stereotype? Um, and I go, I wonder if this would be if he coded himself as middle class. I wonder if he would be able to, um, mitigate some of that pain for himself, [00:07:00] and I think he has done that in the past and it has worked. But now he's like, Fuck it and, um, I and and because all it really is is a type of assimilation. Mostly what I find in terms of, um, when we code ourselves as middle class and we try to distance ourselves from those other, it's, um it's often about, you know, he's got an FO. So if he cut it off, um, he would look more [00:07:30] middle class. Probably. Um, we cut it and he had a certain type of haircut. He would look professional and middle class, and people would feel less intimidated if he didn't wear his leather jacket. People would feel less intimidated. He was wearing a suit. He would, you know, like people would. But that's to do with assimilation. That's to do with a certain type of civilization. Um so often being middle class or attaining class [00:08:00] privilege as a Maori means not being Maori. In a sense, there's lots of ways of being Maori, of course, and we want space for all of that. I don't want to say people who are coding themselves in middle class and not being Maori, but I'm saying that it's part of a simulation. Um, So what happens to people who don't assimilate who refuse to kind of do that thing? Who, because of their class, background or whatever [00:08:30] don't have don't have access to that or just think Fuck it. I just don't want to. On some level, they are resisting assimilation. And I mean, I find that on the white side, on my my side as well, there's a resistance. It's like, No, fuck it, Fuck it are not gonna do it, Um, even as they're also living with shame. Um, so what happens? But I was particularly interested in it to [00:09:00] do with how that affects Maori at the moment when we don't choose not to assimilate is so often, um, we are scapegoated. I mean, there's to me. There's lots of faces of assimilation. So there's the assimilating outwardly coding yourself, perhaps as as middle class in the context. So I'm talking about it. But there's also, um, not being civilised in other ways. [00:09:30] Um, Bell hooks and they're not always productive or good, and they're not always to do with Maori at all. It's just to do with I'm not buying this notion of civilization. So Bell hooks, talks about it in terms of, um, gangster culture and rap music. And, um, that it's kind of like expressing this really raw aspect, the the for the which is not political. [00:10:00] It's often expressing this really raw aspect of, um, sexism, racism, materialism, the most raw, um, expression of those things. So, um and and I think it's that raw expression of, um, sexism, for instance, that often ends up that Maori men get, um, sort of scapegoated for that where, actually, it's a systemic [00:10:30] problem that affects everybody. Middle class white guys sometimes get to get away with it because they express it in a in this way, which is OK, um, and sometimes it's not as harmful. But I. I still think that that scapegoating of, um, Maori men and and particularly what I'm talking about now that take the must kind of type and those reactions that I'm seeing my get in the street, uh, to do [00:11:00] with that is to do with your this expression of this thing, which is unacceptable, um, and I, I guess what? How this feeds into feminism is that we can do that as feminists, too. Um, sometimes in terms of the way we discuss certain types of violence. And I know I've always found that very confusing, as as a young person struggling to get away from violence but not wanting, but having such a strong loyalty to [00:11:30] to my, um So yeah, that's kind of what I have to say about that. I guess that what this comes back to is other is saying this thing that you're expressing, which is a part of our culture in general is the thing, which is the worst. And it's about distancing ourselves from the most raw expression of that thing. Um, and sometimes we need to do that. But I guess what I'm saying is that, [00:12:00] um it it leaves wahine, um, isolated as well. Um, and I I guess I feel like our connected well-being is about is about not other me. It's kind of like, um uh, it it's about not other on lots and lots and lots of levels. And I don't think compassion is something we [00:12:30] can escape. Um, I guess that I I find it interesting that with white working class, white, working class men are probably the group that activists and liberals give themselves permission to have contempt for, um if the expression of certain racist sexist whatever constructs is explicit, then people feel usually feel OK about [00:13:00] say, oh, illiterate dr or really class based slurs. That actually is still kind of OK in in political circles, because this is this one group that is somehow a bit of a lost cause. And I don't believe that I don't believe they lost cause, but, I mean, sometimes we don't want to put our energy into them, and that's fucking cool, because we don't have to. But I, I don't think we need to be, um, other that group as much [00:13:30] either. Um, so what does this have to do with man and man? Well, I think that and is a really interesting concept. Um, for me and in my process of decolonization, Um, because it encompasses monarchy, encompasses respect and power and care and [00:14:00] I I remember asking somebody How do you say respect and Maori isn't the verb to respect somebody. Um, they were like I'm like, fuck, that's a head trip. Because in English language, respect doesn't necessarily have to do with caring and nurturing. Um, but it does in Maori, and that is a primary place where we derive our mana. Um, I tell [00:14:30] you guys, the type of man man is a pretty complex. I mean, it's not an easily translatable con concept, but in terms of in terms of the kind of man, as in the work we do in this world that uplifts our mana OK, um, is, um, man, uh, is something that it it is connected to our ability to care for people. And for me, this is a bit of [00:15:00] for each other. This is a way out of class, um, classism and every other thing as well, um, as a way toward our collective well-being. And what I like about it, as a concept is it's good for all of us. Um, it wasn't thought of as far as I know. It wasn't thought of as a feminine trait, something that women do. Only it's actually something that's associated and an obligation for everybody [00:15:30] particularly. And, uh, it's not something that any of us can escape. Um, if we want to be able to stand in our power and it's something I, um, aspire to, I guess. And, um, I think it's a redemptive concept for our, um, and as a red of content for us as women as well. Um, I've found, like in my feminist journey [00:16:00] that, um I kind of used to think that I wasn't so keen on, um, there was a various groups of people who are just like fuck you. I'm not interested in you. Um, I now like, reframed it to me. I don't really have energy to do that right now rather than, you know, um, but other than you are not worth my time, because I I feel like that ends up. I end up standing on myself by by standing on them. So, [00:16:30] um, yeah. Oh. Killed everyone. Um, I'm feeling pretty nervous, and I've never done anything like this before, so just bear with me. Um, I just have a [00:17:00] quote that I would like to start with first, and this was written by a And he, um, is part of the crank feminist collective. And, um, there are a group of people of colour in the US, and, um, pretty amazing. So I recommend looking them up. Um, So this piece is, um, called the immediate need for, um emotional justice. And, um so I'm just gonna read the two first two paragraphs [00:17:30] of this article. Um, oppression is trauma. Every form of inequality has a trauma traumatic impact on the psychology, emotionality and spirituality of the oppressed. The impact of oppressive trauma creates cultural and individual wounding. This wounding produces what many have called a pain body or a psychic energy that is not tangible but can be sensed. And that becomes an impediment to the individual and collective ability to transform and negotiate their conditions. Emotional [00:18:00] justice is about working with this wounding, and it's about dividing us into our feelings and our bodies and finding ways to transform our collective and individual pains into power. Emotional justice requires that we find the feeling behind the theories. It call on us not just to speak to why somebody is something is problematic. So but to speak to the emotional texture of how it impacts us, how it hurts or how it brings up brings us joy or nourishment. Emotional justice is very difficult for many activists because historically most [00:18:30] activist spaces have privileged the intellect and logic over feeling and intuition. This is directly connected to sexism and misogyny because feeling and intuition are culturally and psychologically linked to the construct of women, a construct that we've all been taught to and validate and silence. So by extension, we invalidate and silence the parts that we link to a woman and in ourselves, our feelings, our situation and irrationality. Um, so, yeah, that's why, um where I'll start and [00:19:00] I guess classes, Um, not something that we talk about a lot, really? Or maybe monks working class people, but, um, and it feels quite vulnerable and quite raw. And it's not something that I can split from, Like, I'm obviously working class, and that is a big part of who I am. And I can't separate that. I can't theorise that. Oh, really? Sorry, OK, yeah. So I guess I can start with a little bit of my story. And, um, [00:19:30] I'll be talking a lot about institutionalisation and stigma relating to mental illness and, um, admissions to psychiatric hospitals and, um, prisons and gangs and, um, a bit about crime. So, um, I grew up in Dunedin in a working area, and I was raised by my mom. She was 16 when she gave birth to my brother and she was married at 16. That relationship ended, and, um, the father left and my brother's never seen him again, except when he joined a gang and they tracked him down and stood outside [00:20:00] his house. But, um, yeah, so and then she married my father, who was a taxi driver for most of my life. And my mom went from being, um, a beneficiary to sometimes working in caregiving. But, um, for most of my life, she was a beneficiary due to major mental health issues. So, um, and she is a product of rape, so she doesn't know her father. Um, so that plays a big part in her journey. And, um, there's a lot of, [00:20:30] um, shame around that and incest within her. So, um yeah, and that that's had a massive impact on who she is. And, um, Institutionalisation has played a part in, um, sexual abuse being perpetrated by members of her. And, um, her. Her brother was, um, put in an institution as a child who was sexually abused and then went on to sexually sexually abuse boys in my family, including my brother. Um, [00:21:00] he was kicked out of home at 15 and, um was sent to live with the abuser and then went on to join a gang and, um, as an as a drug recovering drug addict, an IV drug user. And, um, he's now on the methadone programme and doing pretty good, but, um, his life has been pretty screwed up by yeah, by by drugs and by abuse and post traumatic stress disorder that, um, led him to commit a crime that resulted in him being sent to prison for 3. 5 years. [00:21:30] So I just think around institutionalisation and and prison and crime and just how that has a massive impact on people's ability to engage in the world. And, um, his opportunities for for work have been, you know, obviously majorly impacted. And, um so he still lives with that to this day and just to take yeah, and I guess, like, taking something that we talked about on the Facebook discussion around perception that poverty equals stupidity, is [00:22:00] is something that's really, um right. I think that we all face that and it's quite big in my you know, none of us have, um, like, I'm the first person to gain. Um or study education. And I left school at 14. My sister left school at 13. And, um, due to major mental health issues, and, um, we both entered alternative education, and I think that led me into this, like helping professions. And I think that a lot of working class women end up in those helping [00:22:30] professions because maybe there doesn't seem like a lot a lot of options and that we've had to, um, have that role in our own anyway. And, um yeah, and that was definitely a big part of my journey. My mother was, like, in and out of psychiatric wards for most of from about age 10 onwards. And, um yeah, and at the age of 15, I attempted suicide for the first time. And I was, um, put into a psychiatric an adult psychiatric ward [00:23:00] for three months at 15 years old. Um, so again, it was like this, this generational institutionalisation, and it was like I you know, there was not really, I guess, another option. But, um, like Luca and I just talked about, um, class and around medication stuff like when I first went to the doctors with being majorly depressed The first thing that was offered to me was antidepressants, and that was it. You know, nothing else. There was no other conversations entered into around how my [00:23:30] recovery might look or what else could be worthwhile exploring. And, um, yeah, I think that we have a, um, medication plays a part, but I think for working class people, it is the first thing you know, like my parents knew nothing about naturopathy or, you know, ST Don's Ward or any of these things that maybe middle class people would have access to or more knowledge around. Um, yeah, so that's a little bit of my my journey and psychiatric. Um whats played a big part in my life. [00:24:00] In between the age of 15 and 23 I had 12 psychiatric admissions, which is pretty huge. And, um and at the age of 23 I met a woman who was at a therapeutic community in Napier. And, um, I found my way there, and it saved my life. And so yeah, I'll just guess I'll go on to talk a little bit about the shame and stigma attached to certain mental health diagnoses. And, um, yeah, how [00:24:30] that's obviously related to class. So, um, when I looked back at some of my notes, I was diagnosed with emotional, unstable personality disorder at 15 years old. And, um, I I just was, like, aghast that even something that was attached to me and that they pathologize maladaptive coping strategies. Obviously, what I learned was from my mother, who was spending a lot of her life in bed and unable to go into places because she was so fucking anxious all the time. So here they are, like, pathologize [00:25:00] this, you know, diagnosing me with this at 15 years old, which is, um, yeah, it was pretty huge, and, um, not really helpful. And, um, I had a reunion dinner on Friday night with the woman that I went to this community with, and we were talking about, um, borderline personality disorder because that's a diagnosis. Mostly, um, mostly given to women. And, um, it was like a stemmed from neurosis back in the day, like a like a middle ground between neurosis [00:25:30] and psychosis. And, um, it it's quite, um, fraught with a lot of issues. And it's quite controversial diagnosis. And, um, the staff from this treatment place was saying they hate it. It's like it's an awful, awful diagnosis and that we all have traits of borderline personality disorder, but it can be useful in accessing treatment, and, um, but there's still a lot of shame and stigma. A lot of psych nurses and psychiatrists, um, really dread dealing with borderline patients. And, um yeah, [00:26:00] and I had this awesome psychologist once. That said to me, Nick, you're not borderline. You know, one of the one of the symptoms is being, um, having like a not very stable like identity. And he's like, Well, well, how how could you when you were in and out of hospital as a teenager in your formative years? So how could you develop who you were as a person? So, um, yeah, I quite like that. There's a little a shift away from this, like, medicalized idea of, um, how that looks for people. Um, So, [00:26:30] um, yeah, I guess I'll just talk a little bit about the makeup of and I. I guess I've talked a bit about my family, and I'm a social work student in my first year, and, um, class stuff comes up quite a lot for me in that setting. There's a lot of white, middle class Saviours and they drive me fucking insane. And they all want to work for child, youth and family. And they also all want to work for corrections. Um, which it's just like [00:27:00] And we we do a lot around like morals and ethics and, like, they just make me want to vomit those words. They're fine. Um, and we were given this sheet of paper and, um, it was around family of origin exercise and about drawing a a genogram. I don't know if you know what a genogram is. It's kind of like a family tree, but like, if I awful version and um, it's, um, basically, you draw like circles and, um, squares for your family [00:27:30] and like different genders, and you draw lines between who is married and who is not and the Children that they had. And I said to this tutor like, How How how does that fit for people that their is so different? You know, how about for me when my father's adopted and she was like, Well, you do his birth family, I said, Well, what if he relates more to his, you know, his birth family. Sorry, not his adopted family. And, you know, for my mother, who doesn't know her father and my brother, who does not know his father, and And I remember as a child getting, um, coming home with some homework [00:28:00] that required me to draw a family tree. And my parents refused me to do that because of the shame and stigma around the incest in my and, um So that stuck with me and I'm sitting in the social work class and sitting with it, like getting told to do the student. And I mean, there was a woman in my class and her mother was murdered in domestic violence three years ago, and that was that anniversary was coming up. And for, um, that were did you put a cross through their circle or their square and just talking about emotional [00:28:30] justice and oppression being trauma. And there was no space for that that to emerge. And I mean, some of the some of the Christians were like, um the the bit of paper that we were given around the genogram. And, um was like, what context was your family living in and And what morals, Um, you know, like, how does your family reflect its cultural identity and heritage? And there was a woman in my group who her parents died when she was seven, and she lived, um, for some time in child [00:29:00] and family care and then on the streets. And how can she, as a working class woman with that experience, draw a genogram and talk about what she how her culture and and morals are reflected by. So, um, I guess I just encourage people to be really mindful of the different makeup of and then it means a lot, and it and it can be quite raw for people. And, um, so that that's an ongoing challenge to be in, um, in that social work environment. And, [00:29:30] um yeah, so class, it's It's a hard one. And I'm just appreciative that we have had the space to do some talking around it today, and, yeah, and that it's good to be to move, move through and talk and thank you to rouge for the conversations that we had prior to coming, you know, to the and, um yeah, no, I think that's all that I have to say about class and mental health at the moment. Yeah. [00:30:00] Wow. Um hey, um, my name is Ruth. Can people hear me? OK, or do I need to put the microphone on? Can you hear me? Better now? Cool. Um, hi. My name is Ruth. [00:30:30] I just a little bit about myself. I work as a peer support worker. Um, what that involves if people don't know what that is, is we're a form of mental health, support and recovery that's based on respecting people's autonomy and self determination. We focus on people's strengths instead of a patho organisation. And we are all people. Every peer support worker is somebody who has had lived [00:31:00] experience with either mental illness or alcohol and drug addiction. So we're people who have walked a similar journey to those that we support, which I think is a really important thing to acknowledge, because I find a lot of the time people who haven't had that lived experience may not necessarily understand or know how to support people the same way that somebody who has been through it does. Um, first of all, [00:31:30] I would like to thank the clip fest organisers for providing us this opportunity and this space to actually talk about mental health and well being as a political issue. It's something that hasn't really existed within this activist movement for a really long time. So it was quite hard for me to write anything about it because I was looking at it going mental health and class. Christ, where do I know? I don't even know how to begin? It's just so, so, so loaded. Um, [00:32:00] I really can't spend too much time looking at the stigma. But I really need people to understand that there is stigma attached to mental illness. It is real. It is really potent and harmful, and it does exist. It's so huge that every time I disclose my diagnosis with bipolar disorder to people, I am taking a massive gamble. I don't know if that person [00:32:30] is going to forever see me in this context of being crazy, where everything I do say, think or feel will always be looked at as a part of my insanity. Um, it's so potent that when I was first diagnosed with bipolar disorder, my mother urged me, This is my own mother. She urged me to get physical health checks to get blood tests. [00:33:00] And maybe I'm low in iron. Maybe it's B 12. 0, maybe it's gluten. Um, so I decided to cure her off. I went to the doctor. I got poked and prodded and checked. Results came back fine. I'm in perfect physical health. Everyone, please. And I told my mother and my mother goes, Oh, damn, if it was low iron, it would be so much easier to fix. [00:33:30] That's my mom. So that's how huge this is. Um, one of the really big things that I wanted to talk about is the issue around poverty and mental illness. Um, it never gets discussed, and I think that's really sad. Um, mental illness. It affects one in every four people. And not only that, but poverty affects people's mental health. And over [00:34:00] a third of the people who are receiving welfare right now are receiving it because of mental distress. And when we don't talk about it, we are actively choosing to ignore some of our most marginalised people in our society. And that's really sad. Um, I think it's a particularly potent issue right now because we are currently facing these very devastating welfare reforms, which will make life a lot harder [00:34:30] for all beneficiaries, including those with this lived experience of mental illness. Um, people seem to be vocally opposing a lot of the reforms. Not yet. Have they seen any of the anti poverty groups? Not yet. Have they seen any of these working class groups actually step up and talk about mental health? And I've been somebody who's been working with these groups for a very long time, constantly going, What about me? You know, somebody who's [00:35:00] lived as a sickness beneficiary right here? I can talk to you about it. People don't want to talk about it. To most people, the idea of being crazy of being emotional or being sad, they see it as being a bit gross. As you know, it's very gendered as well. It's seen as being feminine. It's wrong, and we need to do away with those associations. If somebody's talking to you about their mental health issues and their distress and you're feeling [00:35:30] a little bit uncomfortable, that's your prejudice. You need to check that in with yourself. That's not anyone else's problem, you know, and saying that triggers are a different thing, but on the whole, people do get really uncomfortable. And I'm sorry, but that's how I feel about it. It does need to be talked about, and we need to stop offering it. Um, what I'm finding really alarming is that people who are receiving [00:36:00] sickness and invalid benefits now are going to be subjected to work capability tests. Um, these tests will be at the mercy of case managers, and unfortunately, case managers are not known for their empathy or their understanding at all. But I do hear if they write the third worst poetry in the universe. So you know, um and [00:36:30] it's really hard to understand that mental health is something that's constantly fluctuating, and it's also very precarious. You know, it's something where a person can appear fine, but they are really suffering in sight, and they can be scared to talk about that. And, of course, they're not gonna talk about it to their fucking case manager Um, and it's [00:37:00] also something that can be brought on. A person can seem stable, but it can be brought on through things like stress, constant bullying and harassment from wins and bad employers. Um, we can look over to the UK with their Tory welfare reforms, which is what the National Party are planning on putting over here. And we can see what's happening there is really alarming [00:37:30] that Mhm Nice Um, there's Where was I? The suicide rates and the suicide rates and, um, the UK have been skyrocketing since the reforms. And one bit of research that I found really alarming recently was done in [00:38:00] Scotland, where, um, doctors had interviewed about 100 of their patients about what aspects of their health has been deteriorating since the recession. Um, the number one thing that was deteriorating for them all was their mental health. Um, the patients they fell into two groups. The first were people who were in work who were previously what would be classified as being mentally healthy. [00:38:30] Yet, um, they were now coming to their GPS explain, um, complaining of anxiety and stress because they were dealing with increased job insecurity, um, cuts, extra work as well as the rising cost of living. Um, the second group were people who either had, um, physical or mental health issues who were receiving welfare. Um, and they had been constantly [00:39:00] struggling financially. They felt completely and utterly hopeless being sent on these wild goose chases for non-existent jobs. Um, along with that, you know, just this general stigma that's around being a beneficiary, which is very similar to the stigma that's around mental illness as well. This idea that you're weak, that you can't control yourself, um, that you're wrong. Um, [00:39:30] so it's kind of like this double whammy for a lot of people. A lot of them had started self medicating with drugs and alcohol. Others had just started upping their medication without their GPS consent. And a lot of them were deeply, deeply suicidal. Um, there have been reports of people actively slashing their wrists in the welfare offices [00:40:00] in the UK. It's that bad, and I fear that it's going to get that bad here in New Zealand as well. So I do think there is some real urgency about dealing with this. I think basically, without sounding dramatic, people's lives are at risk because of this. Um, the other way that people's lives have been at risk is just this increased way that, [00:40:30] um, mental health or mental illness is only kind of see, I guess, as a white person's issue as well. When you look at our spokespeople for mental health, we've got Stephen Fry. We've got John Kerin white men, you know, And it's really interesting this concept of, um, who can actually talk about mental [00:41:00] health and who actually has those privileges who's actually allowed to stand up and say, Hey, I'm crazy, Um, and I think we It's an important thing to acknowledge and observe. It's in things like the, um, the National Party's UM suicide prevention plan, which completely ignores trans people whose suicide rates are alarmingly high, which ignores queer relationships as well. Um, there's all kinds of ways this is done. [00:41:30] It's, um the Mental Health Foundation often seems to kind of marginalise people who live in poverty. One of their five winning ways to well-being is give. How can you give when you have no money when you have nothing? You know, um, it's in the way people talk about recovery as being about health as being about communicating with nature and exercising and eating well, which are lovely things to do. [00:42:00] But not everyone can do them, Um, and so we need to look at that as well. When we talk about mental health. We need to look at who we include and exclude in our discussions. Um, so I think that's me. I'm kind of improvising and looking at these notes. I kind of panic typed this morning. So, um, we are going to throw it over to a Q and a session now. [00:42:30] So if there are things that I've missed out or you want to know more about or things you just really don't agree with me on Yeah, Feel free to ask. Cool. I just need maybe I'll just add some stuff around the the poverty and mental health stuff because there is a huge lack of dialogue and the stress of these welfare reforms are just absolutely massive. And, um, you know, the only way that we're going to deal with [00:43:00] these issues is looking at the, like, the systemic failings and the issues behind poverty, you know, which is, you know, you know, lot lots and lots of reasons. And just the lack of funding for mental health recovery. I mean, you know that this massive focuses and medicalization, you know, prescribing high doses of quite often ants, psychotic medic medications which have really horrific side effects. And, um, I mean, the types of therapies that we know work for people are expensive and they are not, you [00:43:30] know, I mean, the place that I went to was closed down, and I think this is a was quite a a patriarchal decision, and it was for for women, and it was dealing with issues of trauma. And, um, it worked, and the cost of running this place was not very high. And they just said, Well, no, we can treat people, but, you know, their way of treating people was by admitting them to psychiatric hospitals, which we know doesn't work. And, um so, yeah, I just think there II I hope that, um there's a big push to embracing more of these holistic, [00:44:00] um, type therapies and and looking at the systemic failings of dealing with mental health and poverty and unemployment. Yeah, and that's just another thing that I did want to touch on. When it comes to poverty and mental health, there is, um, a lot there, like the way the mental health system works is we have community mental health providers. These community mental health providers are basically what they're meant to be is it's free mental health care. [00:44:30] Um, for the top 3% they work with 3% of the mental health. Yeah, so you basically have to be very high risk. It took me three suicide attempts to actually get them to take me seriously, and they end up pretty much just being an ambulance at the bottom of a cliff, and not a very good one at that. Um, because they're so underresourced and underfunded. Um, for people who are, as we say in peer support, floridly psychotic, you [00:45:00] are basically given your antipsychotics, which kind of like tame the rough edges of what you're going through. But that's all they can do on their own. Um, you can recover from those symptoms. You can recover through years of extensive therapy, but unfortunately, because mental health is not seen as a real issue, the funding is not there. So these people are living these these nightmare worlds that they could, given the opportunity, [00:45:30] not live. But unfortunately, that's not how it goes. And, you know, and that is one thing that I would like to acknowledge is that I am very lucky in that sense that When I started getting seriously unwell, my family did step up and offer to pay for private therapy. The reason why they did that, though, was because my whole family is nuts and they [00:46:00] knew that I wouldn't have stood a chance with a mental health system as well. Like it's so, so underresourced and shocking. Um, you know people, often when they're suicidal, instead of sending around a crisis nurse, they'll just call the police. And that's really, really traumatic and a lot of the people who work there. Um, because it just these issues haven't been [00:46:30] raised or discussed within these C MH CS. They don't understand the complexities of things around gender, sexuality and race. Um, I had one friend, a Trans woman who requested an all women's respite when she was in crisis, and the psych nurse said, No, you're a man, so you'll go to a mixed respite. These [00:47:00] things happen a lot, and when something like that happens to a person, they're terrified of accessing these services even when they need it. And it does make me wonder. How are people getting support when they need support? If the places we meant to turn to aren't going to understand us. They're not going to take people seriously. They're not? Yeah. Anyway. Sorry. [00:47:30] That was a bit long winded. Yeah. Thank you. I just want to, um before we take questions, acknowledge how much pain people have been sharing. Yeah, and, um, what an enormous privilege that is. It's a funny word to use, but it's an enormous privilege, actually, for these stories to be shared. So thank you all that. Do we have questions? [00:48:00] Um, so I wanted to reiterate your point that people are dying in the UK because of the direct impact of the cuts that are happening over there. Um, and I'd hate to see that happen over here, but, um, I'm not sure if you might not be able to answer this as a panel, but how do we actually stop that happening? The changes happening, or how do we support better the support networks that do exist? The [00:48:30] good ones, like, if the Mental Health Foundation isn't properly supporting people, how do we create new ones or, you know, how do we reach the people who really need it? Um, I. I work for a Maori social service in the inner city in Christchurch. And we've got, um, a really good relationship with community law. And they are working on behalf of, um, beneficiaries who are facing these, um, their work testing in the in the panels. And I mean, it's it's quite frightening [00:49:00] when you when you can, um, you can appeal these decisions if you're getting kicked from the invalid onto the unemployment, Um, and you'll go before a board who are not necessarily clinicians. They might be like social workers or occupational therapists. They're not doctors in your field of of, um, your your disability. Um so relationship with with good community law teams are quite important to an advocacy I think is, um I mean, just take taking up somebody else with you when you're going to work [00:49:30] and income, as most of us know, it is pretty important. So I'm gonna be horribly pessimistic and say that I don't know if we can actually stop the reforms, but I think being vocal opponents and just I guess starting that sort of paradigm shift is really, really important, and that can hopefully bring about social change. Um, I'm a part of a group called [00:50:00] Changing minds in Auckland. Um, do look us up on Facebook. We're really, really awesome. Honestly, we too. Thank you. We we advocate for, um, respecting diversity. And I think that's a really, really important concept when it comes to creating communities that support mental health service users in because [00:50:30] it is just Yeah, it's about understanding, diversity and not looking at behaviour that might be a bit eccentric by your terms as being wrong or something that you need to stop. Yeah, as well as that. I don't think we can avoid the class struggle. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it's really inspiring. I don't know that much of what's been going on in Wellington in terms of what happened with [00:51:00] the, um, the queer struggle in the class struggle come together at McDonald's. But I was like, Yay! It's like, how do we expand class struggle to encompass this or the other way around? Um, struggle for, you know, you know, so mental health being a part of that class struggle. Well, you know, we can frame it however we want, but we can't. We can't avoid the fact that we need to come together on somewhat [00:51:30] on material grounds and in some senses to, um to fight these because they disadvantage so many people. And because we care about each other. Yeah, um, I just want to say this panel is like, this Talk is the closest to my reality. Of all of the talks I've had this, um, and I can't even ask a question. I can not even make a statement. Really? [00:52:00] Um, I was gonna say, like, my whole life and experience is that start of mental health and the system and class especially being the centre of that, um being extremely low class in my upbringing, even though my mother will deny it in the end that it's untrue. Um, And I feel very protected right now, actually, from coming from such a lower class, [00:52:30] um, beneficiary kind of standpoint of, like, when people, um kind of saying people holding their kids away from Marcus, um, because you know, like, I am very, I get loud. I get when I see people wanting to be middle class or I, I get louder, and I want to make them more uncomfortable. Um, [00:53:00] and I entered the mental health system or the system. Um, my mother has mental health issues. And I had a relationship with the system before that, um, through her experience, but by being Trans, and I found it easy because I, I am so angry. Um, that and I make such a that there is a crisis for him, and they deal with it faster. [00:53:30] Um, and yeah, I just, uh I wrote them in, Um, yeah, in my in my lower class, like when people say, Oh, they learn how to talk about it so they get the benefit. Or they, um they know how to explain away and bullshitting and giving reasons so that they can get real people's money and are not humble about it. Um, [00:54:00] yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a common misunderstanding about a lot of people receiving welfare because of mental distress is that we lied about it. That's a constant thing. And I often hear people talking about lying about having a mental illness so they can get more money. Um, personally, I don't give a shit what you do to get your money like I really don't care. Um, [00:54:30] I do question how many people are doing that just because they are ashamed of having a mental illness, but it's a common misconception. And I just wanted to say it's not an easy thing to fake, but it is a remarkably easy thing to hide for a lot of people. Um, yeah, and I just about not being humble about taking that people's money and stuff. Um, I haven't got this, um, how we are in control. And maybe I wasn't in the space [00:55:00] to talk about it in the at the time, but it made me really realise how my biggest relationship is the system and how the system has made all of these things. I have had to, uh, because of my lower class, I could just move. I hadn't. I didn't feel attachment to anything. I didn't feel like I had to stay anywhere to get what I needed as fast as possible. Um, but they totally isolated by by making me move to another city where I didn't have my friends even when I didn't want to see anyone. Um, [00:55:30] just economic abuse. Of course. Because I didn't want to get a job at all. I looked how I wanted to or whatever, and Yeah, I didn't I. I wasn't not humble because I was so angry at the system. I don't care if they were giving it to me for free. They were being evil. They were rotten. Yeah, it's cool. How those things, actually, those things about being socialised or not socialised to be middle class can benefit. We're from the same family, [00:56:00] Um, that, you know, they benefit us in some ways. Say, as, um not having those constraints, I found a massive benefit in activist scenes. In a way, is just be like, Yeah, whatever. Um, you can just fire through and not be worried that you're gonna lose some social status because you've already lost it or you don't care about it or you don't know how to look after it. So it's gone. But that is actually, there's actually some personal power in that directness. That [00:56:30] is, um, a real can be a real plus about the the old under class rage. There's not rage. Can we hear from the, um uh my question is about that, um is about people that have attempted suicide or that are kind of, you know, nearing that point, I suppose And, um, how you said Ruth about when nurses called the police. That was, um sorry. What did you say? That it was, [00:57:00] um it can be quite traumatic for the person. Yeah. And, um, it just made me think that I'm I'm not sure about this, but I think that nurses, um, you know, they're registered according to the and that they have to I think that they have to call the police. Otherwise they'll lose their jobs. And so there's two things. There's one thing that the nurse has to be accountable to. The nursing council. But then there's also legislation involved. If someone has committed suicide, then they have to be reported to the police or something like that. I was just gonna say, What do you think? [00:57:30] Um, what do you think should happen? Um, the whole I mean, what's the dream situation of someone that suicide? I think that kind of bottom of the club, OK, I think it's a really difficult one. I mean, in my line of work as well. If somebody, if one of my peers wants to ring me up and be like ruf, I've got the nose around my neck right now. I have to call the police because the police, I mean, it is, uh, best practising. I have [00:58:00] to make sure that person is safe. Um, And the police, unfortunately, they can drive really, really fast, and they can legally withhold a person. And I would rather have a pissed off service user than a dead one. the what I was getting at is that it's traumatic when the police don't understand. That's what's really hard. Um, I know [00:58:30] people do work with the police or liaise with the police about getting them to understand mental health issues. Unfortunately, there's still a lot of cops out there who see suicide attempts or threats of suicide as being a big waste of their time, and they don't want to deal with it. So they do treat you like contempt. The I guess again, it just comes back to, um well, stigma. You know, it's again. Just the only thing I could possibly the only solution I could possibly think. Aside from living in that wonderful utopia where [00:59:00] there are no cops, we'll get there. We'll get there, Um, is to just challenge those notions and those perceptions. Yeah, I I Hm. That's a hard one. I I mean, it's it's about belief. Quite often, people that are, um uh, uh suicidal or have attempted suicide, um, are just treated like shit. And it is like the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. And I mean [00:59:30] I. I don't know what you know. There is a big issue around safety and and whether people get admissions to psychiatric wards after suicide attempts, which I mean, there's a big onus on the family taking responsibility. And I mean, there was a lot of times where my father was expected to look after me when I was suicidal, and I don't think that's fair, but, you know, But then I don't know what best practise is around that, Um, I don't think that police should be dealing with suicidal patients. I think it's really highly inappropriate. Um, I mean, the massive power dynamics are huge. [01:00:00] And, you know, I I've heard that they may get in their three or five months training or however long it takes at police college. They'll get like, one day's training on mental health, which is so very, very little. And but I think that yeah, mental health nurses really need to make an effort to be treating suicidal patients with a bit more respect. Because, yeah, it's the stigma attached to, Like I said, borderline and and and suicide attempts is so, so massive. And I mean, that's it's [01:00:30] kind of they see it as a revolving door and quite often with, um, suicidal patients. They're coming in and out all the time. And but, yeah, I think, and, you know, like investment in quality therapeutic, um, work for patients is one of the main things that will, um, you know, hopefully that for a lot of mental health nurses, it's this idea of, um, they don't want to reward bad behaviour by putting a suicidal person in hospital. That is the actual [01:01:00] logic. It's ridiculous. There is a thing now. I think about it. Um called a green card admission now, and it's, um, used for, um, suicidal patients or patients with borderline, which is you can ring, um, the psychiatric ward, and often there's no bed. So but the idea is that you ring them when you're suicidal or wanting to self-harm and you say I'm feeling unsafe. Can I come in and you'll get a 48 hour admission, Um, where they won't review your medication or anything. It's just about having a time to keep you [01:01:30] safe for that that time. And if you self-harm or run away or something on the ward, then you will just be immediately discharged. But that's around taking responsibility for your safety. Um, and I think that initiative is, um, really good way to deal with it. I was just wondering, um, with, uh, a lot of the, um you know, people don't like So my understanding is that people have [01:02:00] to actually be like I am attempting suicide right now. I have resources to There's not resources allocated to help people. I was thinking about how at the NC PC people will call us up, you know, I mean, workers will pull us up and say, I'm feeling really depressed. Things are real shit right now, like, this is my problem. And we will be like, sweet, we're coming over, come over. I'll be like, Let's go have some coffee and hang out and come hang out like we talk Shit. I mean, that's good and it's and it's really good. But then, [01:02:30] like I wonder whether there could be more of that happening. And it is the thing that's stopping that from, You know, people from calling sooner before, you know, like sooner we might need support. Is it just a matter of, like, not being all that money? I would say So I think that's an excellent thing to implement. I mean, I try to do that as much as I can. Yeah, I think peer support is a really awesome [01:03:00] initiative, and it wasn't around when I was younger and, um and it's really, really cool. But, you know, the the resources are so stretched and like, I really like that thing that you're talking about at NZ PC And like quite often in psychiatric wards, they'll be like, packed out, and they'll get a phone call from the psych services saying, Have you got a bed and they'll say, Oh, no, and then somebody will be going on leave for the weekend so they'll send them out on leave and say, You can come back if you feel unsafe, but they would have already filled the bed for the weekend, So if you're unsafe and you come back, it's like, Oh, we'll put you on a mattress on the floor, [01:03:30] put you in the seclusion room with the door open or you know, So it's It's fucked. The system's fucked. I was wondering if, um, we could talk at all about, um, some of the things that happened at the place you went to in here that that worked. Um, yeah, sure, it was a therapeutic community. Um, and I don't know if you know anything about the model, but it's pretty amazing. So it's like an onus on the saying was that, um, wounding happens in relationships. [01:04:00] So healing happens in relationship, which is really, um, amazing. And it was a small community. So there was five women, um, there at a time, and the staff team was quite small. So I think community was like 12, um, 12 people all up and, um, quite intensive group therapy. And, um, I mean, we did like some yoga type stuff in art therapy and which is the integrated body psychotherapy. Um, which is really cool. [01:04:30] Um, but just a lot of being in relationship to heal wounds and, um, being in the space. And, you know, there's a big expectation that you engage in the community So it's like you still are cooking and you're cleaning and, you know, and everybody is on equal footing. It's quite non hierarchical, which I really liked. And, um, but But just time, like I spent 15 months there and, um yeah, and they used, um, a trauma and recovery model Where you, um you progress through four stages from, [01:05:00] um, um, establishing safety to finally reconnection. I know, um, transition out back into the community. So and just in the fact that it was for women was really, um, amazing. And to, um, you know, especially dealing with trauma, which most of the women there were having, um, you know, diagnosis of post traumatic stress disorder. So just just really intensive therapy, I think. And, um, I mean, we did lots of fun stuff, too, and yeah, and cooked a lot of good food. And [01:05:30] but yeah, and it's really sad that that that's closed. Now there's one place in Nelson called, which is therapeutic community for borderline patients. Um, and there's like, a private clinic in Dunedin. Um, but in terms of, you know, treatment, um, options outside of psychiatric units is so limited. Yeah, I'm I'm really passionate, and we'd love to see something like that started up again. So, yeah. Can I just ask that you have to pay [01:06:00] for that? No, it was funded by the district health boards on the lower, um, lower North Island. So I moved there from Dunedin. I heard about it. So I moved all the way up to and stayed with this woman's family until I got funding to go there. Yeah, I just because I work in the mental health, if we can create something like this and we can have this, like in every city, it just sounds [01:06:30] like something that's effective because routine activity is, um, experience. I was myself. So I know I know what it's like. And, um, you know, the routine daily routine, like cleaning and cooking this stuff. Uh, it gives you a sense of accomplishment. I cooked today because you just feel so hopeful it like, Yeah, I really I really interested in that. Would you be able to give us a link to that Nelson [01:07:00] one that you know? Yeah, sure. And I just do some research and see Yeah, yeah, yeah. We have a question over here. Really? Random commenting what you were saying before about up. And I think the fact that it's kind of like rich white dude is just as usual. But it's also like maybe the idea that, um, mental illness is kind of a discrete thing that you just [01:07:30] have because you've got five neurons in your head rather than because of social circumstances. And and so, like having mental illness has nothing to do with, like your you know, your physical interaction with the world or your social circumstances and stuff. And as though mental health is mental health issues are something you either completely have or you don't. And like for a while I used to kind of characterise myself as a mentally healthy person because for [01:08:00] the most part I was and holding that identity it It took a long time for me to notice that I had a lot of issues like I would be sitting there crying and being like, I don't understand why this is happening because I'm a mentally well person. Yeah, it's It's for me. Um, and I mean it like part of that may have been me not wanting to have the stigma of being a mentally ill person because then that governs, like the whole way that you are and like what you're saying, Like, you know, people would see you as that first [01:08:30] or you'll see yourself as that person. It's like No, like, I'm Anna responses to the random comment from anyway, Yeah, I think that was That's really interesting. Like the way I've always perceived it or the way they talk about, like my diagnosis. And I don't know if I touched on it before because I kind of just had this adrenaline rush and ranted incoherently for a number of minutes. And I'm sorry. [01:09:00] Um, but yeah, I don't believe in the one great stigma to rule them all. Like how we experience it is tied to diagnosis, the kind of diagnosis we have and all. Yeah, and it's tied to class. It's tied to race. It's tied to everything. Really. Um, but the way I was taught, told about my diagnosis, Um, after the mass of temper tantrum I threw at my psychiatrist was that [01:09:30] it is one part some genetic predisposition, some kind of witches brew of neurotransmitters in my head, and the other part was extenuating life circumstances. To me, that makes sense. Um, but I think it is a complicated one as well. Um, and yeah, as far as, like, kind of going through that stigma of being well and unwell, I think, to an extent, we're all both [01:10:00] mentally well and mentally unwell in a lot of ways. Um, we all have quirks. We all have interesting things that we go through. And this is not to marginalise the distress that people can feel. That's really real. But the way I've always looked at my experiences is that I am kind of on this extreme edge of feeling and thinking like I just things just go a little bit too far with me sometimes. Like, [01:10:30] Yeah, I don't know if that helped. I'm just rambling. Can I make a random comment in response to the random random comment away? I just want to say for me and my personal experience of mental illness and working in mental health, um, not for a while, but, um and, uh, yeah, I think that, um that that kind of binary thing came about like, [01:11:00] Well, people unwell people. Crazy people is really key. I would really like to see that disintegrate a bit more because, um, I really saw that. Um, yeah, in in my work environment and kind of like, Well, the staff are, you know, well, you guys are not well, and I was just like, that is so wrong what is happening? You know, And, um and I think, yeah, in terms of, um [01:11:30] uh, yeah, asking, asking for help and and getting what you need and that stigma and then coming, coming back to work. Because when it's black and white, when it's like, you're either this or you're there and you've been unwell and you've been, like for me with depression, um, you know, and then you kind of go When am I? Well, you know And like because, you know, there's this sort of idea of like, you have to be you're either completely well or you completely unwell, which I just think is fucking [01:12:00] bullshit because it seems to me like, Yeah, we're all it's it's someone said, You know, it's it's it's in flux. It's coming up and down. You have times of stress. You have times of real wellness, you and it's all there in that in that kind of, um, magical cauldron of actually just being a human being. And, um, I think, yeah, mental mental illness is part of, um, being a human being and and living in, like, we people talked about, you know, living [01:12:30] in a society that hates you for a lot of different reasons. And so yeah, and I think that in my humble opinion that that, uh, kind of binary can only change the more people that, um, come out and talk about their own experiences. So, um, we are really great people hearing I also wanted to touch on. Like when I talk about speaking up, I do wanna say that I do understand why people don't and [01:13:00] that it can be really unsafe for people to do it. Um, So that's why I just I guess I try to promote understanding from everyone or empathy or compassion. That's something that's within us all. You know, we can't escape it. As Hannah said so and that's about privilege as well. Like, you know, you talk about, you know, people like John, you know, like who already has enough privilege, which, you know, I have plenty of privilege, which [01:13:30] allows me it makes it easier for me to say those things than something else to say those things. OK, being an ogre about timekeeping is extremely unfamiliar to me. I have to be honest. But I'm really aware we are, um, way over time. So I wonder if we can. I think there was one other person over here who had their hand up. Can we maybe close with this question? I was just wondering if people have much knowledge around the changes to [01:14:00] the benefits which are about I'm worried about that. And I imagine there are other people here, too. Yeah, I can talk to the folks later. That's better. Um, I think the main things that I found concerning is that changing the title of the sickness benefit to a job seeker agreement. Um, and they talk about that as it's really [01:14:30] strange. The the, um, the Ministry of Social Development. It's like they've adopted these kind of recovery type language to focus on this. You know, my only disability is thinking that I can't do it. Um, I don't know if past the win's office lately, it's sitting right there in the window, Um and yeah, so they do. They're doing that to kind of decrease the stigma. But really, what they're doing is they're putting you on a contract [01:15:00] that says that you're gonna look for X amount of jobs each week and you face sanctions on your benefit If that doesn't happen And I'm not sure how you can even prove these things or what you do, they, um you know, it's hard for people who have that experience of had time off work due to their mental health, to find work again or to get back into the working system. Um, you know, and I've known people who have been pushed into work when they weren't ready [01:15:30] for it, and they've gone unwell again and they've lost their jobs. And it's just like rinse wash, you know, repeat constantly, constantly. Um, so, yeah, I think that's one of the most alarming things that came up for me, um, forced drug testing as well. That's a big one. I think that's quite stigmatising with drug addiction as well. Um, it's also that concept that as controversial as it is as it is that [01:16:00] addicts can't do jobs, they absolutely can if they want to or I'm sorry. I'm beginning to sound a little bit like at myself. You can work, but it's a Yeah, it's just that bizarre concept. They we don't know what's good for us or that we're small Children that need to be told off and patronised. Yeah, I think it it was under my impression that the ambulance benefit was going [01:16:30] to be unchanged. But, um, from what I hear that it's not it's maybe getting changed to something called the Living Support Payment. Um and I Yeah, I thought the ambulance beneficial were safer. I'm on the ambulance benefit at the moment, and I just got my yearly review form and I said, Look, I don't want to have this hanging over my head, so I'm gonna try and transfer you to the student allowance. And I have another friend that just had an appointment during the week and they were trying to kick you on to the sickness. [01:17:00] So yeah, there are massive changes, and I think there is a huge push. Um, which is really frightening in, um in terms of yeah, like mental health and disabilities. It's a bit scary. So I, I don't really know a lot more than that. There's a little bit of information on, um, on the M SDS website. But community law are really onto it with that stuff like this in Christchurch. There's one person that deals with beneficiary rights. So they might be a good place to call [01:17:30] or auction. Um, Auckland action against poverty or place. Like that? Yeah. How did you have anything you want to add to me? Um, no. Ok, cool. Then I would like to, um thank our panel for being such brave and extraordinary shares this afternoon. Um, yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

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TITLE: Session 4 - C. L. I. T Fest Wellington 2013
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VOICES: Ali Nissenbaum; Cat Pause; Esther Woodbury; Grace Millar; Robyn Kenealy
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Ali Nissenbaum; Annemarie Jutel; Anorexia Nervosa; Aotearoa New Zealand; Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD); C. L. I. T Fest Wellington 2013; Carol Hanisch; Cat Pause; Charlotte Cooper; Esther Woodbury; Grace Millar; Operation 8; Robyn Kenealy; Samantha Murray; Savannah Dooley; The Personal Is Political (1968); Wellington; Wellington Irish Society Hall; activism; advertising; allies; anxiety; body image; body issues; capitalism; class; commonality; depression; diet; disability; diversity; eating disorders; eugenics; exclusion; exercise; fat; feminism; food; gender; harassment; health; health system; identity; language; media; mental health; mobility; modeling; morality; narrative; poverty; public spaces; racism; social justice; social media; transgender; wellbeing; women
DATE: 2 June 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington Irish Society Hall, 10 Fifeshire Avenue, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the session: Body Politics - food, health, fat, disability, class and moral virtue. Participants include Esther Woodbury, Grace Millar, Ali Nissenbaum, Robyn Kenealy and Cat Pause.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So what I'm gonna talk about today is briefly, I'm gonna talk about, like, policing health practises, um, and ideas of health. And I wanna talk about really, really quickly, like individual policing of that and structural policing of that. And I'd like to talk a little bit about, um, the disabled or nonconforming body. I'm gonna use my experiences here a little bit and talk about kind of exclusion of people. Um, sort of So, yeah, it's kind of gonna start like, Oh, hi. [00:00:30] Um, yeah. So I'm gonna just start talking about health and how people plus police then and then if you don't have the right kind of body, then you know kind of what happens in public spaces. Um OK, so, um, I I'm really interested in the idea of, like, policing health practises because, um, I became sick as a sort of child and, um, sort of. From then on, there was lots of kind of like, you know, you've got you've got to sort of try. And there's a lot of kind [00:01:00] of narratives about how like health is really important. And one reason I was hoping I wouldn't be the first person to talk because I was hoping someone would talk about, um, kind of narratives around health and how that's really important. Um um, as opposed to other narratives around the body. Um, but actually, I kind of want to challenge narratives about how that, um, it's a positive narrative that we have about our bodies because, um, well, I don't believe that health is under our control. [00:01:30] For one thing, um, and I think that I've sort of had a lot of experience of, you know, kind of having my sort of while, you know, people have not been like, Oh, you can stop being You can stop having a chronic illness or anything like that. There's lots of ideas about, you know, Have you tried, um, this diet? Have you tried this therapy? Have you tried, um, doing this? And then, of course, you know, there's that whole like, Oh, yeah, they don't eat that. It's really unhealthy. [00:02:00] Oh, it's so great you're eating that it's really healthy. Um, and it's quite, um, full on, and I think quite a negative thing. Um, and I think that there are kind of there's individual policing of that kind of stuff. But there's also structural placing of that. So, um, sort of like, you know, individually, It was kind of like, Oh, you know, this week this is my mum. Oh, this week is still where we're not gonna eat gluten or we're not gonna eat dairy. Or we're gonna try this, um, [00:02:30] disgusting health thing, which is, like, revolting like medicine you have to take and they can throw up and it'll be like, Oh, no, that's terrible. But maybe we should try it a little bit longer to see the, um And I think that's, um, problematic. Um, and it's not just kind of, um, uh, sort of bodies that are kind of presented with this narrative, but, like, you know, like, Oh, it's so good. And there's a piece of morality in this story. That's why I wrote [00:03:00] I kind of started off with, like, I've got one word that's right. Perfect for that. Um, so there's lots of kind of, um, you know, like it's really good. It's a really good thing to kind of do stuff for your house and, um and it's not that good. If you were doing stuff which is bad for your health. Um, and that kind of so yeah, um, on an individual level, that's really I found damaging, but, um, also, [00:03:30] structurally, there's a lot of there's a lot of push to be doing the right thing, doing the healthy thing, doing the moral thing. Um, you know, we've got to be good citizens, and we've got to, like, exercise and eat right and not smoke and do this and do that. And, um um, you know, we're punished if we, you know, we're kind of punished by individuals and by society, if we don't do the moral thing, um and and that can be just kind of disapproval, Um, [00:04:00] but it can be a lot more than that. You know, like, if you there are kind of really serious consequences to not meeting kind of health moral health standards, which are like, you know, if you if you smoke, then you can't have this medical procedure kind of thing. You know, like you're doing something bad for your health. So we're not gonna give you this, um, sort of treatment or that kind of stuff? Um, you know, if you're above a certain BM I you can't have IVF treatment, that kind of stuff. You know, we're [00:04:30] like you. You have an unhealthy body. So therefore, there are gonna be, like, kind of structural consequences. It's gonna be kind of real, real consequences, sort of in the world. Um, and that kind of stuff so wanted to talk about that. I'm just trying to think I'm trying to. It's quite hard to figure out how much I can talk about the stuff, Uh, for 25 minutes. Ok, um, maybe I'll move on [00:05:00] to the next bit, and then just see where we get to. Um I think that, um, so the Yeah, so there's a lot of pressure of kind of having a healthy body and, um, doing healthy things. Um and you know, like, I can actually I just wanna say Like, I think on an individual level, it's really complicated, because often people who, um, you know, like, say, try and sort of place your health, and that kind of stuff [00:05:30] can often be really close to us. And that's really complicated. Um, but I kind of actually don't think that we have a responsibility to be healthy to anybody else. Like, you know, I don't think. I mean, I guess it's more complicated when you start thinking about you know, your Children and stuff like that. But I don't think there are many circumstances and I. I think the whole thing is like, really interesting, and I don't know, but, um, I yeah, I don't think that we owe it to anybody to be healthy. And [00:06:00] I don't think we owe it to the state. And I don't think we owe it to people in our lives either. Um, so, um, I also kind of want to talk about, uh, my some more. Some kind of personal experience. I've had a flat kind of If you if you don't meet, you know, if you're not healthy or if you don't have a healthy body or you don't have a body that conforms to society, then, um, there you are excluded [00:06:30] from society. So you've failed. That kind of you've failed that bar of being healthy kind of stuff. So, um yeah, I. I sort of give some examples of that kind of stuff. Um, I mean, there's kind of, like, lots of stuff that's come up. I guess in my life recently about kind of um, sort of structural exclusion from, um stuff which is, like, access to places, kind of physical access to places. [00:07:00] And when I talk about disability, usually I like talking from my own personal experience of, like, physical disability. But, um, that's not, you know, obviously the only way that people are, um, excluded either because of disability or because of other things. Um, so there's kind of the sort of structural stuff about, um being sort of physically excluded from places, uh, that Say [00:07:30] human beings want to be in, um and, you know, like, you know, I'm I'm very unlikely to be excluded from places like sort of hospitals or libraries and that kind of stuff, which is really important, But I'm a lot more likely to be excluded from places like bars. Um, and it's kind of like this narrative about what kind of bodies should be And what places. Um, yeah. So, you know, there's no kind of requirement to have, um, sort of non-public buildings [00:08:00] be accessible, and lots of public buildings are not accessible either. Let's face it, but, um, yeah, there's kind of which, you know, like it. It creates another narrative about who deserves to be and what places. Um and, you know, I like going to bars, and I like going to music venues, and I like doing that kind of stuff. But, you know, this whole kind of like, uh, yeah, I guess people are kind of put into there are some things which are essential. And then there's non essential stuff, which some people it's [00:08:30] OK to be exploited from. Um, and I don't think that's cool. Um, and yeah. So I was gonna say something else about that. I can't believe my thorough notes didn't cover it. Um oh, yeah, I wrote. I wrote my, um I wrote my thesis on, um and I think this is another really cool example of that stuff, which is, um, I. I wrote my thesis about disabled driving, which is really exciting stuff. Um, [00:09:00] and, um, one of the people who I interviewed for my faces Oh, hi, K. Um, was, um, talking about how, um and they there were these car parks and this was in Auckland and they had these car parks, which were mobility car parks. And it's really important and blah, blah, blah, blah. I can go on and on, but these mobility car parks were only mobility car parks from, like, eight o'clock in the morning till six o'clock at night. Um, [00:09:30] and it's it's the whole thing of, like, you know, yes. Disabled people might have to leave the house during the day to go to things like doctor's appointments, And I don't know other things where they can be scrutinised. But, you know, you don't go out at night time, and, you know, you don't want to be in public spaces in the evening where you might be doing something frivolous, like socialising with people. Um, so, yeah, I thought that was really shit. Sorry, I'm going through time. Um, you know, that's really bad. And then there's individual. I just want to talk really quickly. [00:10:00] Is it OK about individual exclusion from public spaces? And, um, I think it's really complicated, but one of the ways that I I've experienced this in lots of ways, But one of the ways that I think is really, uh, damaging is, um or it's been really upsetting is when people, um, comment on my body and public spaces. So, you know, I do go out to bars and music venues and stuff like that. But, um, you know, you know, some drunk [00:10:30] guy will come up to me and you know what's coming next? He asked me. Really? Um, sort of intimate and intrusive and upsetting questions about my medical history and my just, you know, um, experience of being disabled. And it's that whole thing of like and you know, other examples of that are like people coming up to me and being like, Oh, can I Can I pray for you or, you know, like there's all kinds of ways that you can be individually kind of [00:11:00] on a one on one level, be kind of pushed out of public spaces. And I think that's really important one. I'm sure lots of people experience that. And it's not just something that people experience because of disability. I think there are lots of kind of non conforming bodies where, you know, um and I think a lot of women experience this. Um, where you know your body is is to be commented on, um, in public spaces. And then I think that really pushes people out of you know, the community or, you know, like [00:11:30] it makes you know, It reminds you that you there's a There's an element that you don't really deserve to be in public And that kind of stuff. And, yeah, I should stop talking now because they're excited people to come. So thank you. Is this OK? I'm not very good at talking to microphones. I may try just to project my voice outwards. Um, so I had two plans. I was I was going to talk about the day, but I think what I'm going to talk about because it seems timely, is, [00:12:00] you know, two days ago or a few three days ago. There's this horrific racist cartoon about, um, fat poor people who are eating all the Children's food, and it's their about poverty. Um, and obviously that cartoon came from explicitly right wing and racist and reactionary place. And what I want to talk about is the left wing version of that dialogue. And what I want to talk about is the left wing version. What I call it is we have to hate poor people's bodies to save them. The the the the left wing, where this [00:12:30] all comes from, and kind of how it's constructed. And when I'm gonna start, um, so just briefly, there's a longer left wing history of associating that with capitalism, which goes back to something that goes back to the 16th century, which is the idea of, um, gluttony and a moral body. I'm not really going to talk about that today. It exists. It is obviously, now completely counter to any narrative reality. Um, that, you know, the associating that with [00:13:00] capitalism. But it does sometimes complicate things, so I might bring that in later. Um, what I want to talk about today, um, is is the both the association of fact and, um um, and and the working class people and fact and and that being the reason for maybe detrimental for detrimental for the reason that working class people's lives are shitter than middle class people. [00:13:30] And what I want to talk about is the way that health is constructed in that. So when I was when I was thinking about this, what kind of my classic example of that cartoon as I have observed it happening in real life left wing people, um was when I was up in the at the depositions for operation eight, which kind of tied it with a motion for me but may not mean that much for for a lot of people here. But anyway, um, so it So it was part part of the raids and part of all that kind of stuff. And there were all these people around [00:14:00] and a group of people had provided food. Um, and I could talk about that, but, um what? What Interesting about the food. The food was quite familiar to people who moved in urban pakeha circles. But whether or not they were pakeha, the food was familiar to them. And it was wasn't familiar to people from to to people who lived in who could come up from. And there was a a young Maori woman. Young, you know, recently, fat Maori woman with four Children who took them to Burger King. [00:14:30] And she came back. And a thin, older white woman who was totally used to authority was talking about the delicious food she was. And the young Maori woman said, Ah, I took my kids to Burger King, and the older white woman said, Well, at least you're ashamed of that, that, um and that is not at all unusual. Um, that idea that, um [00:15:00] basically that people don't know what decisions they're making. They're not making the right decisions. Um, is is something that I see all the time. I kind of want to break down the process, break down kind of the fallacies or break down What's wrong with that narrative? And I'd say the first thing I wanna say is with this idea of healthy, um, and the idea that there is this un healthy is a quality in things, not a relationship to our bodies and our needs. [00:15:30] So food gets labelled as healthy, not depending on what you, um what on you and what you need and where you are. But and and like in the total sense in an emotional sense and a financial and all that kind of sense, but as an intrinsic quality of the food. And, you know, there are some really obvious examples of that. I am hideously allergic to dairy products. You know, yoghurt. Low fat yoghurt is like a classic health food. There's a whole Sarah Haskins video about it, which I recommend you look at if you have it, because it's amazing. But, um, there's a whole [00:16:00] video about yoghurt is the ultimate health food. And obviously, um, if I ate it, you know, I should eat anything before I ate that yoghurt. You know, um and that's that's just one example. But obviously, you know, again, if we go back to the kids who are eating Burger King, food that they eat is healthier for them than food that they don't eat. And and there's a classic example of you know that often people, if you if you if you say, Oh, you you're going, you're going to rush around all day and you have an apple and a an apple and a chocolate bar. What? What should you eat? [00:16:30] And people say, Oh, you should that apple to be healthy. And of course, the answer is, if you can, you should both because you need a lot of calories to last you for all day. So there's lots of examples where food and things get labelled as healthy. Um, and I think that that the important thing is to just reject that label entirely, that there is, um, you know, and talk about the relationship between people and things. But it's more than that because, really, specifically, what gets labelled healthy is [00:17:00] middle class things, middle class food, middle class activities and the classic example again from the same set of experiences. Um, most nights on that food was cooked, uh, by older Maori women who cooked food that they were familiar with. One day, um, they went to to a course and they didn't cook, and some other people did cook. And they made a pasta salad with rye with pasta and, like, vegetables and [00:17:30] all the stuff. And, um, it was really and everybody there. Um, including the including the woman who normally cooked went on about how healthy it was. Nutritionally, it's no different in profile from Fry, and but because it was food, it had been labelled healthy. And there are, you can think of all sorts of examples that is a really amazing blog posts about, but from G, basically because I think it's expensive, expensive enough, it gets called healthy by this guy called, [00:18:00] who has about like $5 bags of chips that are sold in common sense organics, which are all about how moral they are and how stone ground they are and all this kind of stuff. And of course, um, that association with with middle class and healthy, that was, you know, that was actually a huge at the time was a huge revelation to me because I was so used to I guess what I was used to having grown up as a a middle class kid is the idea that what I did naturally was healthy. [00:18:30] You know, like that the food that was natural came naturally to me and the food that I naturally cooked that, you know, within the space of everything else that that was healthy and nutritious and would would would, um um would kind of kind of had that kind of label. And I don't realise that that process of of thinking about that kind of excluded a whole bunch of other people from labelling their food that way and labelling their home food that way [00:19:00] and that the the food that is not middle class ends up getting pathologize. Um, and I guess the third thing I want to say about that is to suggest that this has a huge impact on people's well-being. Um, it's a little bit academic, and this is a really amazing study of which was done in the eighties, but of of where they went to two hotel chains and in one hotel chain, they, they, they they showed them both this thing about the virtue of exercise. And [00:19:30] they were showing it to the maids who are basically, you know, walking, stripping beds, doing things for 7. 5 hours a day. OK, first, what's interesting is some of them said that they did know exercise. Um, and and any study you see about the benefits of exercise will be about the benefits of leisure exercise. Um, and that's what gets classified as exercise and the fact that workplace exercise is both different and much more not like like, like likely to have the same effects and more likely to damage your body and blah [00:20:00] blah blah and leave you unable to do, you know, with any energy left to do and leisure exercise. So first, it's interesting that these people who these women who are working 7. 5 hours a day, um, lots of them consider themselves doing no exercise. But the other thing is which I just find fascinating, really important is that these women, um, they gave they talk. They talked to one group generically about the benefits of exercise, and they talked to the other group about the benefits of exercise [00:20:30] and said, And the government particularly recommends stooping and the sorts of things that you're doing. And then they came back a month later, and in all sorts of health measures, the people who've been told that what they were doing is healthy were doing better. So the process of of labelling, middle class, what is open and accessible and available to middle class people does actual damage. It is a process whereby you say this is this is healthy and this is not and it's a process exclusion [00:21:00] And it's a process of claiming a lot of the kind of benefits, the social benefits of the label healthy, a lot of the kind of placebo benefits and all that kind of stuff to middle class people and exclude them to working class people. And I guess, um, II, I guess the other thing I want to say which is possibly going up a bit tangent. But it's a it's a quite a recent process, the the it's been getting worse when it comes to fat bodies. The pathologist of fat fat bodies has [00:21:30] been getting worse in the last 10 years. And I want to argue that that is a result of Third Way at least partly a result of Third Way politics that, um the, uh if you look at the history of, um which I've done a little bit of research into, um, if you look at the history of of, um, uh, poverty and health and bodies. Um, in the 19 nineties, the national government said, Well, it's their fault, [00:22:00] you know? It was straight up. It's, you know, if if poor people had the worst, it's their fault. You know, it's a personal responsibility, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, then the obesity epidemic, Obesity epidemic as a thing as a construct that exists, Um, not being fat, um, that was basically invented in New Zealand under the labour government. And what I think was half what, what what happened? And I think there's quite a lot of evidence from this. If you look at the kind of health, the public [00:22:30] discourse of health around it is that they looked around and they saw that there were massive inequalities and these inequalities were affecting people's health. And rather than saying and there was no willingness by the latest Labour government to do any kind of massive redistribution of wealth or to address the inequalities and so but they But they weren't prepared to just feel like it's individual people's fault. So the obesity epidemic became a way that they could appear to be addressing things structurally but actually blaming individuals. And it has, [00:23:00] and it has that it has. It's that I think its purpose is to appear to address things structurally but actually put responsibility for divergent outcomes and things and and individuals. And, you know, um, I probably could go on with examples, but I, I Yeah, I guess the last thing I want to say is that this isn't new. Um, I. I do research. And if you look at Welsh mining villages of the 19 thirties and forties, um, they [00:23:30] had incredibly incredibly poor health statistics compared to the rest of the country, they had women were living shorter life spans than which is always a sign of really bad health because, um, because of the dangers of childbirth and all that kind of stuff. Um, and, um, you get lots of middle class people at the time Contemporary saying, Well, it's because the mothers don't know how to shop and everybody went on strike in 1926. And the Children are doing better because they're better fed by these interfering like by the by the school boards, because the mothers are feeding the bread and [00:24:00] jam. And that's not healthy and blah blah, blah, blah, blah. And the thing is, you know, I mean, I'm not saying the, uh if we if we go forward 30 years, say, when there were still money valleys. Um, but the, you know, 30 years later, 40 years later, the Welsh money valleys do not have as much as discrepancy. There's been a huge increase in, um, increase in, uh, in in in general well being and longevity and all those matters of longevity. And you can bet that those mothers were still feeding their kids bread and jam because Britain and Jan is awesome. Um, and the difference was the structural [00:24:30] changes that have been made around having hot water in the house and all those sorts of things, and then if you actually you know you can't hate poor people's bodies To save them, you have to believe that people are the best decision makers in their own lives. And the only way to actually make real change in health outcomes is to make structural changes in the way society is. [00:25:00] You have can change it. I should have said well-being. I don't like the word health. I feel like well-being and longevity is like, more specific and less scappy. Yeah, OK, awesome. Ok, um so I kind of wanted to start out by talking a bit about the way that our culture views the human body and by extension, the way that we view things like health and fitness and [00:25:30] disability and food. And I'm going to use an example. If you have science fiction, I'm gonna use an example from Torch Word which, um, I haven't watched it. It's a spinoff of Doctor Who and it's about a covid British government agency who deal with matters of extraterrestrials and time travel and other science fiction type things. Um, and the particular episode that I wanted to talk about is about a pharmaceutical company that creates this magical called [00:26:00] which cures every disease and every illness. Um, and the way it works is that it resets your body back to its factory settings. I think that's really fascinating the idea that the human body has factory settings because, as we all know, people are not created on a mass production line in a factory. So what does it mean to say that we have factory settings? It's like saying there's [00:26:30] this particular way that a human body is meant to be and that your brain is meant to be. And I hear that a lot of the way that people talk about bodies. Um, you know, I hear people talk about the way that bodies are intended to be and the capabilities that your body is supposed to have. So it's things like humans weren't meant to eat this kind of food or, you know, a person your age should be capable of doing this type of physical labour or humans weren't intended to live in this particular [00:27:00] place. Humans weren't meant to go and live in outer space. I screw you and when. What this does is that it constructs this idea that any body with any kind of physical or neurological impairment or even is a wrong body because it doesn't fit its factory settings and therefore it needs to be fixed. Um, and it's kind of an illogical discourse. I mean, I'm an atheist. [00:27:30] I've subscribed to a theory of evolution. Um, and that tells us that diversity in terms of genetic physio, physiological and neurological diversity those are really, really important for our survival as a species. But even if you believe that humanity was created by a benevolent, omnipotent high power, then you really do have to trust that that power knows what it's doing, and that human variation is there for a good reason. So the the [00:28:00] question that we need to ask is, Why is this idea about a way that the human body is intended to be so popular? Who's benefiting from it? And what kind of social impact does it have, especially on people whose bodies don't fit that model? Um, because we're kind of two dominant negatives around illness and disability, and one is like the disabled person is an object of pity, you know, like like was saying about [00:28:30] the street, thinking that she needs them to pay for her. So, you know, it's like, Oh, you poor, helpless victim of fortune. You need a And then, of course, you have, um, the idea of certain bodies of objects of contempt which, um, you see applied a lot to like fat people. You know, people who are victims of the obesity epidemic. Um, you know, so it's kind of like [00:29:00] it's your own fault that your body is young. If you just had the right attitude and worked hard enough, you could overcome this. And that's often not just about bodies, but it's also about poverty, you know? And and that's exactly what a bit Cartoon was saying is like Oh, poor people are just poor because you're stupid and spend all their money on alcohol and cigarettes and gambling. And that's something that we constantly hear is that poor people have health problems [00:29:30] because we're stupid. We're lazy. We don't take good care of our bodies. And I think that cartoon probably did voice something that a lot of middle class I really do believe on the service. One time I was listening to national radio. They were interviewing an expert on nutrition about child poverty and He explained that oat meal and delivery are foods that are very high in protein and also very cheap. [00:30:00] So poor people's kids would be fine if they just fed their kids livery and oat meal. Come on told me when I was a kid, I was a really, really fussy eater, and I refused to eat fruit or vegetables and most kinds of meat, and my dad used to get so weird and frustrated that he'd tell me Food is medicine. You don't have to like it. Just eat it because it's good for you, which really is not how it works. People have machines, and food is more [00:30:30] than just fuel. We don't just need it to be Intuit. We need it to taste good, and we probably need more variety than just oatmeal and liver. Those aren't frivolous things, you know. It's not about people being picky or spoiled. It is a good evolutionary user. For them, food that tastes good is likely to be food that's safe for you to eat, and that contains the nutrients that we need, the most of which is fat and carbs and protein. And there's also a good evolutionary reason why most of us get bored if we eat the same [00:31:00] thing all the time. Because the wide range of food you eat, the more likely you are to have all your nutritional needs met. So not wanting to live on liver and oatmeal is very reasonable. The idea that people can control their health and that therefore you should blame people for being unhealthy is expressed in different ways. Sometimes you hear it, you can manifest your destiny with your thoughts. So positive thinking is the way to go, and other times [00:31:30] it's that you can get what you want by P. And maybe if you have health problems, it's because you have displeased God in some way and you're being punished. Um, and I think the most common one, actually in Western culture is the idea that you can overcome poverty or disability or illness through sheer willpower and determination and hard work. And what all of these have in common is the idea that if you are disabled or if [00:32:00] you are sick, it's your own fault. And the idea of blaming for individuals for her problem, like Grace pointed out, is really consistent with neoliberal ideology. which was all about dismantling collective responsibility and replacing it with individual responsibility. Um, so you know that famously said that there is no society, there's only for individual. And if there's no society, then I guess there's no such thing as social responsibility. It's a really convenient idea because [00:32:30] it lets us off the hook when it comes to supporting other people. You know, like, why should my taxes pay for sickness and invalid benefits? Because those people, it's their own fault to be sick or disabled. And why should I put my energy into supporting people in my family who have a mental illness? They could overcome it if they just had the right attitude. And why should we build public spaces that don't disable people that have flat access? [00:33:00] For example, if we believe that anyone can overcome physical impairments through hard work and willpower, we have been physically no need to think about these things. The other really convenient thing about blaming people for their health problems is that we don't have to feel scared that it could happen to us. You know, I can tell myself that I'm not gonna get sick because I don't eat meat and I exercise. I'm really healthy. Or maybe it's because I have a positive [00:33:30] attitude and they say positive affirmations. Um, I actually once had a woman tell me about how she went to India and everyone else she was with got food poisoning. But she didn't because she said positive affirmations every day. Um, or maybe we believe that we aren't gonna get sick because we're pious and observant in our religion and therefore God's on our side and he will protect us [00:34:00] because the reality is that we have very little control over our health, and that's a really terrifying thought. And life is much easier as we believe that we can protect ourselves from illness or injury. It's kind of ironic that we have this culture where on the one hand, people's health is viewed as an individual responsibility and that other people don't owe you anything. But at the same time, your health and your body is treated as this really public matter that everyone has a right to pass judgement on. [00:34:30] It's like as you said, it's the idea that if your body doesn't fit a really narrow model, that shows that you are lacking in moral virtue. Um, and something else to think about is in a capitalist economy, which kinds of bodies are valued, that bodies that can perform wage work and thus contribute to the economy, and bodies that aren't able to do so are excluded and disabled because they're seen as [00:35:00] unimportant. Um, and I'm gonna go with another example from science fiction, which is in the Hunger Games and the last Hunger Games book. Sorry about spoilers, but you have them if you haven't heard them yet. Um, in the last 100 games, there is a war between the government and rebels, and the government goes and bombs the hospital full of injured rebel soldiers. And the protagonist [00:35:30] can't understand why the regime would do something like that. And her friend explains to her, It's like this. As far as the government is concerned, people are only useful if they can perform the kind of work that the government needs them to do. Energy people are not gonna be good workers, so they're disposable. Um, and I know I've been kind of quite academic and theoretical up till now, but, um, I want to talk a bit about my personal experiences as well. Um, I [00:36:00] have a DH D with an attentiveness, which is one of the the subtypes of a DH D. I wasn't diagnosed until I was 17, and I think this partly has to do with sexism because girls with a DH D are more likely to be inattentive but not hyperactive. So we're not very disruptive in class. They're not really impacting on teachers or parents as much, so they're far less likely to get noticed. It's far less likely to be seen as a problem. I think it also has a bit [00:36:30] to do with racism because I'm an immigrant from a county which is westernised but not exactly Western. So I don't think teachers had very high expectations of me. And if I was kind of quiet in class and didn't participate a lot and maybe had struggle with learning things, they kind of put it down to the fact that I was an immigrant and my English probably wasn't good enough. I probably didn't know what was going on. Maybe I just wasn't very bright, and it was never seen as an issue. [00:37:00] Growing up with undiagnosed a DH D meant that I was constantly being told that I was lazy and unreliable and inconsiderate and stupid and socially inept, and I don't think it's surprising. But I ended up with a whole host of mental illnesses like anxiety disorder and clinical depression, and more than that, like a general tendency not to test my judgement. And that's something that is really dangerous, I think, especially for young women, because it makes you really vulnerable to abuse. [00:37:30] After I was diagnosed, my family's reaction was kind of like you. Now we know what's wrong with you. Now we can fix that, Um, and that goes back to what I said earlier about the idea. But there is only one kind of body and one kind of brain that you intended to have. So they didn't see neurodiversity just as a matter of being different from the norm. It was a problem that needed to be fixed. Um, and around this time I heard that you could manage a DH D through diet, um, specifically [00:38:00] a high protein, low carbohydrate diet. So basically like Atkins for your brain. And I became really, um, obsessive about watching my food intake and making sure that I ate. I eat foods and also things like taking amino acid supplements and, um, flax seed oil and, uh um, all that kind of shit. And I think you don't really need a psychology degree to work out that that had a lot [00:38:30] to do with feeling like I had very little control over my life and my body and my health, and the one thing that I could be controlling about was the food that I ate. Um, and I think that kind of view of neurodiversity is something that you need to fix Does a lot of harm to people because, you know, we accept that people are different in lots of other ways that people have different skills and abilities. I think we can also accept that people's games work in different ways [00:39:00] and some of us are just really care at concentrating and paying attention. Um and, um, as you talked about it before about waves, that she's disabled as someone with impaired mobility. I think for me as someone who has a DH D, the ways that I'm disabled are things like the way that education is available. For example, when I was a university student. Every course of that I did was you went to a lecture [00:39:30] theatre and you sat there for two hours and you talked at you and I cannot learn like that. You know, I half the time, I had no idea what lectures were talking about because I just couldn't concentrate at all. And in activist spaces, it's things like people organising meetings and bars or cafes, or really noisy spaces where I can concentrate on what people are saying because there's too much background noise. So those are the sort of things [00:40:00] that we need to keep in mind if we want to build an inclusive movement where anyone can participate and no one is disabled. Um, I feel like I've been talking for a really long time, so I'm gonna, um, finish off just by pointing out that the capitalist economy requires a particular set of moral values to sustain it. It requires a culture where most people have very little power and autonomy over our lives. But at the same time, we're expected to take full responsibility for ourselves and not blame [00:40:30] anything on the system because that's a cop out and what we need to do is we need to turn that on its head. We need to build a culture of collective responsibility where everyone contributes according to their need, contributes according to their ability and gets according to their needs so that nobody is disabled and that we need to build a culture where people are just to be the experts on their own bodies and the bodily autonomy is respected. And that's about health. It's also about things like reproductive rights. It's also about the right to [00:41:00] work in the sex industry. It's also about trans people being able to transition. Um, that's what we need as a culture that respects community and individual autonomy. And now over to Melbourne. Hello? Is that suitable? Yeah. OK, [00:41:30] good. Um Ok. Hi. Hi. I'm Robin, and I'm really I'm ridiculously, profoundly nervous. And forgive me if I don't make any eye contact with the crowd at all until I warm up. Thank you guys very much. It was awesome. Um, now I was actually weighing up. Um, before I talked, whether I would try to sort of structure something that was, uh, very objective and quite academic, um, to try to avoid talking personally because I'm an Irish Catholic, and we don't talk about our feelings unless we're very drunk. Um, [00:42:00] but given the issues that have been raised so far, particularly the issues of morality and association with food, this issue that Ali has been talking about with the with control and, um, the stuff that, uh, Grace has mentioned with what kinds of, uh, relationships to food are considered, um, healthy and moral, I think. Actually, I'm just gonna have to straight up fears and say that in addition to being a recovering Catholic, I'm also a recovering anorexic. And the relationship that I have personally with food has allowed me [00:42:30] to in later years Think quite a lot about the way that food and morality are very, very deeply related. Um, to sort of give, like, a brief context. I mean, some of you probably know people who have eating disorders or have had them themselves. Um, but what anorexia is particularly is, um, psychologists refer to it as a disease of the super ego, and I think that's about right now we're gonna use a traditional Freudian model of psychology, which of course, is a bit bunk and and very, um, very disproven, but a really good model for personhood [00:43:00] within capitalism. Perversely, um, he talks about desire the, um, the ego, which is the sort of conceptualised self and the super ego, which is, um, one's understanding one's cache of of societal, um, rules. Almost So what an anorexic is doing with their brain is attempting to form a stable self out of the expectations of others, if that makes sense. So what I have, I guess, then, is an extremely personal relationship with the desire to [00:43:30] make myself a good person through not eating any food. And that was that was pretty much literally what a lot of my life was like. And I think another another really, really important part of this is that, um part of it is also about, um, reducing your body in the world. And I don't just mean that, like becoming thinner. I mean, like being absent. Essentially, what you're trying to do is produce a body that isn't really there. It isn't really a body, so it can't be remarked upon. It can't be hailed. Um, particularly, I know. For me, this is really strongly [00:44:00] related to gender. Um and it was also strongly related to I PTSD and the two. The two events are related. Um, that's really common. Um, and it was actually through talking to some of the people who organise this festival who are quite wonderful and can see you and you love you. Um um from what I've heard and I, I did a little reading about it afterwards as well as that, um, incidences of eating disorders and quite often, anorexia are really, really high among the trans community. Um, and this made me think quite a lot about the fact that [00:44:30] people whose bodies are positioned as, um, critique by society at large. Um, this method of, uh, attempting to produce yourself is good through this kind of control is is one of the one of the approaches that people use. Um, but what is so perversely profoundly, horribly ironic about this is that I remember at the point at which, um, you know, I'm obviously looking pretty fly these days, as you see, um, but when I was, um, considerably [00:45:00] sicker and and sick in a way which allowed me to work as a model that that that should tell you something and they also still Photoshopped me. And I think it's probably worth saying Not only did they Photoshop me and make me up for five hours, but I was required to stand like this, you know? So it's a collarbone and and ribs are all out. Um, and I remember during that time people would compliment me profoundly. They would say, Oh, you look so good. How do you stay so thin? And sometimes when I was drunk enough, I would just tell them [00:45:30] that I literally starve myself and then everyone would go very quiet and, you know, diligence and hard work. But it was, of course, diligence and hard work. That's literally what I was doing. Um, but the reason I point this out is because if we've been as we've been talking about, the ways in which people's bodies are maligned is not healthy by reasons of class, by reason of of disability, by reasons of race, what was the situation here is that I was doing the right work to be read as a healthy body when I was profoundly [00:46:00] unhealthy. So instead of a situation where someone you know, a person would look at me not eating at a dinner and think, Gosh, that's terrible that a person isn't eating at a dinner. Instead, it would be a compliment. That would come Well done. How good you are to not eat. And the terrible thing about this, of course, is that that's my rhetoric for it already. I'm already thinking, Gosh, what a good person. I am not eating so good, you know? And then people will tell you that you're good. So I wanna I wanna also sort of refer back to, um, Grace, You pointed this out. The [00:46:30] accelerating war and obesity. And I think I've really, really noticed that myself, because from my particular position and because I've had to think so hard about recovery, which, um, for a long time actually meant that I couldn't hang out with women. Um, I love women. I have many great women friends, and, um, some other relationships with women. Um, but, um, one of the sort of ingrained, um, cultural things that women have, at least are taught television mums. All that sort of stuff is that you are you know, please place [00:47:00] your own body and police each other's bodies. You say Oh, I shouldn't eat. That's a terrible food or so and so is looking so fat or I'm so fat and you're not fat. I'm fat. And they that forever. Um and so I actually I did not see women for ages. I had to not have any women friends until I gradually met radical women. We can hang up. It was good. Um, but from the from this position of having to deal with this recovery, the logic that is used in news reports on, um, you know, the supposed obesity epidemic, Um, on, uh, the [00:47:30] language that's used in advertising for for, uh, products, ostensibly about health is eating disorder logic. I recognise it. I know it intimately. I know exactly what it is doing that every time that that that, uh, discussion, that rhetoric of health comes up, um, it it is it is performing the same kind of regulatory work. I'm just I'm trying to think how to phrase it, but from the murmurs before, I think you guys might already know what I mean. You know, [00:48:00] the medical establishment has only one way of recognising and responding to anorexia, and that is on the basis of body weight. Um, I think, um, you know, it's probably clear to you from the incredibly awkward manner that I'm in, which I'm talking that, um, it's not, you know, the the body weight is really kind of a side effect of the thing that's actually happening. Um, and it's it. It harms a lot of people that it's read that way in the sense that she she's been admitted to hospital [00:48:30] and then when they've managed to bring her weight up to a certain point. Then she's immediately seen on her way right. No treatment for the actual problem. Just just just enough to get her body to a function we where her heart won't stop. And there's There's another side to this as well, in the sense that not only some people get eating disorders. There are plenty of fat people with anorexia. But because the only way the medical establishment has for registering it registering that disease is the size of your body, it means that there are whole Bunches of the population that don't ever receive treatment for it. This isn't even understood as a as an illness, [00:49:00] so I would say, um, I'm personally invested in building a culture where that is not quite the case. I think it's a really important, uh, thing to do, and I also think it is related to capitalism as well. Um, receiving praise for enacting a mental illness is not just about the standards that are put on bodies. It's also about capitalism, in the sense that [00:49:30] there is a certain amount of consumption that's associated with not consumption as well. To how to put this health is an industry. I'm gonna put it that way. It's a really sorry. Oh, sorry, I said, Health industrial complex in this great I already see that health industrial complex. I think it's really profound and what I started to notice as well, particularly about capitalism. When I when I started to get angry, when I started to realise that, you know, this actually was not a great way to live, [00:50:00] I realised that capitalism is a machinery actually has very little interest in whether I'm well or not well or happy or not happy. If I feel bad about myself, then I'm inclined to buy things to make me feel better, and it will profit from me either way, It's not concern. It's a it's an unconscious machine in that in that regard, Um, and there's a a French, uh, a pair of French philosophers who I'm quite fond of, Um, and they talk about capitalism [00:50:30] as a war machine. Um, and what they mean is that it's a It's a repeating piece of algorithmic logic. It's a It's a binary piece of logic that can recognise only things that are useful to it and cleave things that are useful from things that are not. And that's the only judgement it makes. They talk about this in relation to war, pointing out that when people go to war, they're not necessarily going to subjugate people or to kill people. They're going for resources. They're going for workers. Everything else is collateral damage, because the war machine [00:51:00] can only recognise the resources that it wants. Capitalism is the same. What I found uncomfortably profound when I was reading this piece of philosophy is that that's that's what anorexia is as well. It's a war machine. It's building an acre out of an unsustainable bank of information, and it it isn't actually trying to kill you, but it. But it will we have the same problem with capitalism if we we don't, uh, we don't respond to it. It it will [00:51:30] kill us, I think. And on that profoundly depressing bomb. Show it, bro. Love that behind you. Mhm. No, no, that's OK. Um, I'm gonna stand. Is that OK? You can hear me, right? I'm loud. Can we dim a ha? See perfection all around [00:52:00] with the dimming of the light. And I'm, like, super excited to be here today. I'm also really nervous, as Robin is always nervous before I talk in front of a crowd. Um, but I will try to Yeah, OK, um, my name is and I was very excited to get an invitation to come and speak, Um, as part of this amazing event. Thank you so much to the organisers for putting this together. This has just been incredible. I'm especially excited about the gig tonight. I don't know what that means, but I'm super excited. [00:52:30] So, um, I I'm a I'm a transplant. I'm an expat. I'm sure you can hear that in my voice. I'm here from the United States about six years ago. I love New Zealand. Um, I'm on faculty at Massey University in Palmerston North. I love Palmerston North. I love Massey. Um, I'm even willing to forgive Steve Mahay for driving around in that little car. Um, I'm a, uh I could get rid of that little thing in the middle. I'm a fat study scholar, which means that I Oh, Dan, my job. No. [00:53:00] Oops. I don't know you. Oh, no. OK, there we go. Yeah, right. And I'm a fat study scholar. And so most of my research is about kind of looking at issues around fat identity, fat embodiment, kind of critiquing the larger overall narrative, Um, about fatness. Most of my stuff looks at identity, but I am quite interested in health and well-being. And actually, I think the umbrella term that's often used in my work is that I look at the impact of spoiled identities and the [00:53:30] impact that that has on people's health and well being. Last year, I organised a conference that took place here in Wellington and actually several people who were at that conference and presented that conference in this room today and that just makes my heart a little flutter. I'm like, um, just to see people again. It was amazing. Today's, um it got a lot of media attention. And of course, the media attention was not academics. Host fat studies, you know, conference. It was, you know, fat fat pride parade in Wellington, which would have actually been really awesome. [00:54:00] And I totally organise that. It was just very different. And I actually kind of felt bad for the few media personalities who actually came to the conference because I think they thought they were coming to something with, like, five people sitting in a circle, eating donuts and like chanting instead, they got to sit there while academics stood up and read their very scholarly, theoretical, methodological kind of work. So it's probably a bit not what they were expecting. Um, I'm also a fat activist, Um, which I simply [00:54:30] put, I suggest I try to argue the fact that fat people deserve the same rights and dignity as non fat people, which doesn't actually sound crazy to me. And most people are actually willing to go along with that first statement. So you start unpacking what that actually means, and then they're very quick to, you know, kind of back away and hear all sorts of things about, you know, what about the Children? And what about your health and a lot of the things that we've talked about already on this panel in terms of morality and how fatness sex quite nicely with issues of class and race and gender and all of those kinds of things. Um, I'm [00:55:00] a fat activist and a fat scholar, largely in part because I am a fat woman Now, oftentimes, when people hear me call myself fat, they panic. Um, and in fact, I've kind of grown up my entire life with people around me when I say that word No, no, no, you're not. You're not, um, which is ridiculous, because I am, I think, though what they often mean when they say that to me is they're trying to reassure me that I'm not the negative things they associate with that word. And they don't think of me as unattractive or stupid or lazy [00:55:30] or inactive, or you know any of those kinds of things. And that in itself is an interesting way to start talking those assumptions that people have with people in terms of what they mean or you know, when you hear women, and we talked about like fat talk and diet talk. When you hear, especially a woman, say something like, I feel fat today and fat isn't a feeling I would suggest it's not, in fact, an emotional state of being, um, So what exactly does that mean For today, though, Um, I the topic fatness, bodies, food, [00:56:00] all of those kinds of things. And I'm so I'm a fat woman and I'm living in a culture that is all about what I like to call the fat Apocalypse. And we've heard, you know, the obesity epidemic in quotes. We've gotten that quite a few quite a few times already today, and we very much live in that culture. So there's a lot of discourse around the obesity epidemic and how we're getting fatter and how we're all going to die and oh, my God, we think the Children, um, and it's a really interesting kind of culture to live in in the sense that a lot of governments in the Labour government was much worse about this than the national has been. But in my [00:56:30] country where I come from the United States, we have governments that are engaged in programmes of social eugenics. They want to get rid of obesity. They want to get rid of five people. They want to get rid of me. Um, I'm not really OK with my government actively trying to get rid of me. I think I'm kind of awesome. I'd like to stick around, but, you know, that's kind of the world that we live in. And of course, there are so many different reasons that people give for why we're concerned about the upcoming apocalypse. And everything that's on that slide probably won't shock you. The terrorism [00:57:00] one. I haven't seen articles where they link the obesity epidemic to increases in terrorism. Not even kidding. Um, global warming. I don't think I put global warming up there. Um, you know, health care costs in the stock market. And again, who will think of the Children? I mean, poor Children with all the bodies, But for today what? I thought I'd try to focus it on because I appreciate that, you know, 10 minutes is a lot of time. Is the issue of food, right? And specifically, this idea of fat people eating food and I mean I'll be the first one to say, Guys, I can't go a day [00:57:30] without eating food. But, you know, food is food is food. Um, And if you go online and you kind of look at the the rhetoric around fat people and food, you get, like, a lot of the really similar kind of this idea of like, Well, you know, fat people are fat because they eat too much, right? We all know that, right? We know that being fat isn't healthy, and we know they're fat because they eat too much. Even though the science behind those don't actually support those ideas, we have them. And so it's this idea that most people have that fat people are [00:58:00] fat, they eat too much, and then it also starts to become this concern that, like fat people, are going to eat all the food. Um, and like, fat people have no control over themselves, of course at all. And definitely no control over how much they eat or what they eat or where they eat or why they eat. And they're just always eating all the time. And you you start to see this narrative within the obesity epidemic framework that is producing this idea that around food security, right? And about being concerned about, you know, as populations grow and oh, my God, we're getting fatter. There'll be more Fatties, and so they'll eat all [00:58:30] the food. And this was a quote from a professor in London who, um, it's an article that he wrote this great, that awesome by 2050 that people. And I think he actually used the term obese people. And I just can't handle the words. And some people eat enough extra. You just feed 1 billion others. Oh, my God. But I mean, and this is this is his kind of scholarship. Like, this is the work he's currently doing [00:59:00] and extrapolating, you know, these kinds of studies to say, to hype up this concern about, like food insecurity in our in our world and specifically around like fat people and how much food fat people are eating. And so there's a lot of different ways that within the obesity epidemic discourse, people are trying to deal with fat people eating. Um and so this is an example of, actually from the state of Mississippi. So back in my home country, um, a few years to go. Their, um state house representatives actually tried [00:59:30] to make it illegal for fat people to eat out in restaurants because they thought, Oh, you know, this is a way to curb the obesity epidemic and say that fat people can't, like, go out and eat in restaurants. Um, and I think they tried to get fast food in there as well. And this bill didn't pass. Um, as I'm sure most of you were, the food industry lobby is a huge lobby, and they would never actually let anything get through. I'm surprised they let Bloomberg's ban on the drinks get through. But this is one way of dealing with it. And of course, technology gives us all kinds of ways. [01:00:00] So for those of you who aren't familiar with the 80 bite app, um, allow me to horrify you. So this is an app that you can get for your smartphone. And every time you take a bite of food, you check in with this app, and basically this woman developed this app because she believes that 80 bites of food a day is what you should be aiming for. And it's not about the kinds of food that you're eating or whatever when you're eating for her thing, it's right. 80 bites a day is what we should all be aiming for. And so this candy clever app [01:00:30] will help you keep track of your eating. It's like, you know, if you're eating a little bit too much, then you know 80 bites a day, which is just awesome. Um, so this is the so These are the kinds of approaches that we're seeing to dealing with the fat people who need to eat all the food from one kind of angle. I thought I would share with you the opposite angle or another angle, and that would be work being done by fat activists around the world to kind of combat that, [01:01:00] and one of them is through engaging. Of course, a lot of them are through engaging with social media. So the girl who ate everything, um, this is a fat woman who has a blog, and it's entirely dedicated to what she eats. And she talks about. The reason that she started it was because she is a fat person and one of the things that is often denied fat people is not just the ability to eat, but specifically the ability to enjoy what you're eating. Um, the ability to enjoy food to like food. You know, you could say that one aspect of thin privilege is being able to be a foodie, [01:01:30] right? So if thin people are foodies, that's fine. You know, they can talk about food, and that could be their hobby. But it's a fat person. It's like, Well, you know, it's probably not good for you. Um, and of course, another thing that she talks about and my friend Jenny Lee in Australia has talked about this in some of her publications as well is like that. The act of ordering salad as a fat person like means something specific in a cultural meaning. So, you know, if a fat person orders a salad, it's like, Oh, good for you, you know, like, Oh, you know, you must be on a diet or you must be trying to lose weight or good on [01:02:00] you. It's like, you know, sometimes I just feel like a fucking salad. And so, Angie, sorry. OK, um, and and so it's this idea that there's there's so much cultural and symbolic meaning around around that people and and around the eat. And my friend Jen, who's also in the States. She actually is this great tumbler and you can't see the picture very well. But she started a Tumblr called. But what about your health? And she did that because [01:02:30] she's a fat activist and she gets so much pushback from people that you know, no matter what she's saying, whether or not it's that fat people should have the same rights of dignity and, you know, questioning the science around size and health, and you're talking about the kinds of things that the panel has been talking about. She almost always gets at least 10 people that are sending her emails going. But what I what about your health? Are you worried about your health? So she started a tumbler called. But what about your health? And it's only pictures of her eating food, and it's usually or video. It's usually pictures or video [01:03:00] of her eating food like fat. People are definitely not supposed to eat, definitely not supposed to enjoy um, and what she does now because she gets so many people sending her messages anonymously on the tumbler side is, she takes what they said. So this was someone who said, Have you had a stroke yet? And you can't see her very well. But the video underneath that is her eating a McDonald's fried pie. And that's the whole Tumblr is her posting the Hey mail that she gets and her response is her eating a piece of cake or like a pizza on top of the pizza, Or like a [01:03:30] or whatever? Um, and it's it's It's these small kind of acts of resistance of noncompliance. Um, that can really not necessarily change the conversation, but at least participate in that narrative and maybe kind of force it to be something a little different. It could be. It could be argued that a fat person eating is an act of resistance, especially a fat person eating in public, right, a fat person eating unabashedly and unashamedly in public [01:04:00] in the same way as many other kinds of marginalised groups participate in activities that they're not supposed to do or that they're supposed to be ashamed of. Or that should only happen behind closed doors. And so that's what I wanted to share Today was just kind of talk a bit about fat people and food and fat people eating. And one perspective from the obesity epidemic discourse about how we deal with fat people eating and then the ways that a lot of fat people around the world are kind of pushing back and saying, Yeah, I eat, and I'm not ashamed of that. So [01:04:30] thanks. Thank you, everyone. Um, I don't know. Would you like to have a discussion between yourselves? Is there any sort of cross parallels or shall we throw it open to the It's up to you, I think. Open to questions, I think the questions. [01:05:00] Yeah. Thank you so much. And thanks for sharing so much and personal stuff, and it it makes it Really, um so, uh, right as a as a visitor to New Zealand, I'm very new here, and, uh, as a long term ally of fat people and disabled people and in gender issues as well, um, I was wondering if you all had kind of practical [01:05:30] steps. You mentioned the media representations of all the different types of people and how they're negative. And are there practical steps that the Allies can take to be better allies. I I I've got some thoughts, but they're not well. They're sort of taking the question in a different direction. I, I I'm kind of not sure. Well, I have different thoughts about language and different things, but I'm not sure, like the thing about the language of [01:06:00] allies is that I think one of the things is that, you know, everybody in this room is dealing with the fact that society fucking hates your body. You know, like it's not It's, you know, and obviously people experience it in really different ways. But I think that that's something where I'm more interested in building up commonalities than like than the fact that I mean, well, you do you need to express the differences. So I mean, [01:06:30] I So I think there's that. I think there's that. It's important to acknowledge that, um, that it's not a It's not an unusual experience that that the the kind of wave of hatred that people have talked about in different ways today is actually I mean is a function of at least being, um at least being a woman or, um you know, non gender conforming and a lot [01:07:00] of other people you know, or disable a lot of other people as well. Um, and I guess, Yeah. And I guess the other thing, I would just say, which is kind of what Ron was saying before is this idea of policing, and, um, one of the the I had two talks. You see, I gave this talk this week. I said, now I'm gonna randomly assert it to the other talk. Um, we what? What? The other talk was coming about liberation and the idea of fat liberation and that you can't be. [01:07:30] You can't be part of a liberation practise if you're also policing impression and that the the like, The starting point that we all have to have is figuring out how to stop policing each other while at the same time acknowledging that policing is a really common survival strategy of dealing with that you know, of of dealing with that world. I think there's a there's a contradiction difficulty there. But I think that question about how you please people and how [01:08:00] do you say should you eat that? And how do you say, you know, uh, I you know, have you tried this new treatment or whatever. Um, don't Don't try that treatment. Don't try that treatment, because there are really bad side effects to it. And, you know, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, but So all those all that kind of policing thing. And I would say that that is figuring out how to, like, kind of stop that policing without while acknowledging that often [01:08:30] that policing does come from a place of real, of the fact that there are a lot of people struggling with those same issues. Um, and I think that that's where the contradiction of attention and the difficulty is, actually, yeah. I mean, that's a It's a compassion and criticality and equal measure sort of thing. Because just as you're saying that, I think one of the biggest things that I've seen a lot more in, um, radical communities is that people police people's internalised self clothing when it comes to bodies. I mean, God bless you. You've managed to survive [01:09:00] this long in this culture without hating yourself. But my head is off to you. But a lot of us, yeah, everyone has this. Everyone has this struggle. And some of us are, you know, have really different relationships to our bodies now than the one we might have come into the world with. But yeah, that I mean, I feel like that's a really important thing for people to do. Is is, um, not as well as not policing people's food choices or activity choices or medication choices. Also not police people's self hatred. It's natural [01:09:30] to struggle in this, I think. Well, I mean, in some ways it's it's kind of the underpants rule. So if it's not your underpants, it's not your business. Um, it's a good rule and try to live by that rule. Um, and I think that I think that kind of quite often it's not just even kind of that that, um, obvious policing, but just kind of your own internal narrative about other people as well. Um, when we talk about like in the fact community, we often talk about issues of like street harassment [01:10:00] and public harassment. And, you know, most people are quite horrified, you know, to hear stories that you know, I'm walking down the street and, you know, people moo at me or, you know, whatever call me names or what not? And they're really quite horrified because they would never in a million years do that. But you know, then I try to talk to them and I say, Well, what about your internal monologue? Like what about what you're not saying? You know, when you see a fat body like, do you think Oh, God, you know, she shouldn't be wearing that or he shouldn't be eating that or, you know, whatever it kind of is. And so, in a lot of ways, not just that external of policing, which of course, absolutely [01:10:30] happens, but trying to be a bit more aware about your own internal kind of monologue that you have about other people's bodies about other people's choices. And when it happens because it happens, try to recognise it and be like, Right, where does that come from? How does that happen? How can I maybe think about this differently? And of course, I always get someone that says, Well, I can't control you know what my instinctual thought is? And I'm like, Well, yeah, you kind of can, because you weren't born hating fat people like you learn that from somewhere, so you know it's about? Yeah, kind of engaging in that kind of self reflection [01:11:00] as well. There's sensible labour that comes with that, too, I think. I mean, you know, it probably won't surprise you to learn that, um, anorexics are pretty shitty about fat people a lot of the time. Um and I remember once I started noticing that I had that narrative and it made sense for me to engage with a lot of fat politics and look at what fat activists were saying about themselves looking, looking at the way that they, um just showing fat fashion and things like that and that. I mean, you know, So there's a There's a sort of a sensible amount of if you do realise [01:11:30] that you have those kind of narratives and you're sort of obligated to not have the right. No. Absolutely. Well, I'm trying to kind of embrace the idea that, you know, then this isn't my own idea, and I can't remember the woman who came up with it, but like there's no one. There's no wrong way to have a body, you know, kind of thing. And you know, if we want that to be true for ourselves, then we should then allow that for everyone else as well. And of course, it's, you know, difficult and tricky and yeah, it is. But yeah, I just The other thing I want to add to [01:12:00] what Rob was saying is I think it's really important. I you know, I think that it's really important to understand that you don't owe anyone else to feel a certain way about your body. You know that, um, that it's actually an impossible task to set people to deal with this way of hatred and feel OK with yourself. That's that's That's ridiculous. You know, that's I mean, you can. There are ways you can feel better about yourself, and those are all really cool and really important and really, you know, really deeply [01:12:30] personal. But it doesn't. It doesn't help set up this other standard about how you feel about yourself when you're dealing with this, this tidal wave of, um of, of, of, of, of hatred and and it does just it it it can just become this other pressure and II. I feel I feel it's really strongly because for lots of reasons, but one was because, like in my kind of mid twenties. I was part of a previous version of this activist scene, and I felt like there was [01:13:00] all the space where it wasn't OK to say that you hate your body. But it was really OK to talk about health, you know, constantly, you know, and so and that that drove everything underground and made it more, made it harder and more pervasive. And so I think it's really important to find people who you can say, You know, actually, I don't feel like OK, you know, actually, it's really shit. Actually, it's really hard, you know, And it is hard. It's not hard because, you know, you haven't done a good job of being a feminist or whatever. It's hard because [01:13:30] it's really hard And, you know, like since again since my early twenties, I've been like, uh um, it doesn't help understanding. Analyse the world doesn't necessarily help you feel better and and and and that's OK, you know, um, I, I I'm just gonna quote because it's a it's a It's an inevitability that if I talk about feminism long enough, I will talk quite a carol has. But there's this, um, one of my favourite pieces of feminist writing is also the most mis misrepresented, which is the phrase [01:14:00] the personal is political, which is widely meant to say that the widely understood now to mean that the way you live your life is political. It's not how it was, um, originally, it was recorded by what we were called Carol in the 1968. Um, and she said, um, that there is no the The point The point she was making is that these groups of women who got together and talked about problems in their personal lives with, you know, they're usually with husbands and not doing the dishes and sexual abuse and all this kind of stuff. And they're like, Oh, these aren't personal problems. [01:14:30] These aren't things that are wrong with us. These are political problems And and then she says, and there are no personal solutions to these political problems that at this time there are no personal solutions to the fact that we hate our bodies. There are just ways through the Maya and that the point, the political point has to be collectively trying to fight for a different world and a different idea of bodies while at the same time honouring that we're gonna have really different ways of dealing with what we have to deal with. Now [01:15:00] I have a question that relates to what you've been saying since having a child. I've noticed it more. Uh, I can go for days when anyone will say to me about her is Oh, she's cute. She's really cute, you know? And they talk about her body a lot. How is she? She's Oh, she's very tall for her age, which isn't a good thing. If you're a girl, um, and I find it really hard dealing with that, and it makes me think about myself as well. So I've heard her pretty much. No one said anything about my [01:15:30] body because I'm just a support person. I don't get cute anymore, which is kind of nice sometimes, um, kind of relating to what you're saying and maybe the underpants issue and stuff. We all know it's really shitty to go up to someone and say You're fat and really ugly, But is it also kind of shitty to go up to someone and say You're really hot, you know, like, do we just not talk about bodies. Is that the answer? Just ignore the fact that that person has a body, because for me, that sounds bad as well. Like, [01:16:00] I want to be recognised that I take up space and that I'm a person. But how do we talk about each other with my close friends? I'll say, Hey, you. You look really beautiful today. But then I feel kind of shitty like, Oh, I made a meeting like yesterday. You don't look really beautiful. And, um, you only look beautiful cos you're bothered to get dressed really nicely. Or like it would be weird if I went to your house and you're just beautiful on yourself and you're wearing pyjamas and actually don't look beautiful, but I still think they're beautiful, you know, like, do we just not talk about bodies [01:16:30] like, what's what? I'm not asking you for the the answer, but what do you What do you reckon like, how do you do? We just pretend that the people we meet don't have bodies, Or I think I think there's I think there's a a space where you're where you can be positive, but without being objectifying. Um, yeah, so I mean and I I do. I think it can be a difficult place to to find. I think that I think that not talking about bodies or, you know, not kind of engaging with people on that kind of level. I mean, first of all, it would be really weird in our current culture, [01:17:00] because we live in a culture where we're always judging and commenting on people's bodies. So it would be quite odd if we didn't kind of engage in that. But I think there's a way to find spaces where it's, you know, positive to provide positive. Um, you know, positive things to say that you want to say because you're like, Oh, I really like your dress today or oh, I really like those shoes or whatever. And so I think that there's spaces to do that without, in a way, being objectifying, which of course is is is problematic or what I would see is problematic [01:17:30] and, you know, and as far as the negative, I mean again, you know, underpants and I think my mom, Irish Catholic as well. And you know, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything. You know, I've got that often running through my mind. But it's a good way to make women not express anger. It's pretty much right, actually. I mean, I think this is actually one of the things about this, particularly is that it just is difficult and that the truth, I mean, social justice has a terrible tendency to try and presume [01:18:00] universal rules if we could. Just objectively, we understand the right objective ways to treat each other on various axis of privileged and depression at all time. We wouldn't have any more problems, but but the social part is important as well. So this the fact that it's difficult comes down to the fact that it requires things like taking a level of that person's personality. Um, how you think that they're going to react to a compliment or something like that? You know what the social space is, You know, whether it's a professional space, all that sort of stuff. So I think it's [01:18:30] hard to prescribe roles, but I think you yeah, you're right. It's tricky stuff. It's tricky stuff, and it is that it is tricky stuff and that that's the answer to it. I think it's tricky stuff. Yeah, um, it's not quite a question yet. Um, but I wanted to hear more about your thoughts, and there were I think it came up twice, actually. Correct me if I'm wrong, but, um, it was about health and capitalism. And on one hand, [01:19:00] um, you know, society wants everyone to be perceived as able bodied and healthy so that we can be workers and contribute to the economy and all that kind of stuff. And then, on the other hand, there's a huge amount of profit to be made from people feeling unhappy about themselves. And I was just wondering if you could, um, comment on the relation between those two things because I see them as slightly contradictory. Mhm. What's OK? I'm I'm thinking about this. I'm sorry. I feel like I'm talking a lot. [01:19:30] I feel like the two things are really related, right? Because the the issue I, I think, actually, is that the sort of presentation of happiness and health is one that is presumed upon, um, how to put this almost a sort of really profound binary logic, a human's life, a person's life, you know, you're gonna have sadness and and happiness and moments of joy and moments of anger and all these sorts of things. But the sort of capitalist sale is the idea that there can be one moment. There can be one lifestyle choice that will [01:20:00] solve everything if you understand, so just kind of endlessly, Um, it's kind of endlessly searching for a complete resolution and so on while I I so I I think I see those two things as the same thing. Almost. I I'm not sure I'm making sense. Am I making sense? I'm a little bit. Is it like the abdominal or advert where you you you should have this of somebody who is unfit and has, um, a fatter body and you at the same time, are showing them that [01:20:30] say, Hey, this magical device will instantly transform that body into this muscly rip? Um, you know, So it's like using one to sell the other. And you can't have the the after without before and vice versa. And it's it's a great way of getting money for something that doesn't actually work Well. It's about feeding on people's anxieties in order to sell them things, and you know. The idea is that we have capitalism absolutely relies upon both, you know, kind [01:21:00] of quote unquote able bodied workers. But also, of course, the un wage work, Um, that people, especially women, tend to do in the home for free. Um, but in order to get you to those points, they want to sell you pretty much everything. They can sell you kind of along the way. And the best products are the ones that don't ever actually work, but that the blame falls on the consumers. So I mean, diets are the best example of that. In the sense of the empirical evidence that we have about weight loss is that 95% of people [01:21:30] are unable to maintain what they call meaningful meaning 10 kg or more permanently meaning over five longer than five years. Um, but at any given time, I mean, millions of people are dying. It's a $60 billion year industry in the States alone, which I think is larger than the GDP of New Zealand. Um, but it's the perfect product because it doesn't work. But when it fails, people assume it's them. Well, I didn't do it right or I don't have any willpower or Oh, this next style will work for me. Whereas if [01:22:00] you bought a vacuum and 95% of the vacuums that you bought, like only, you know, if it never works, you wouldn't go. Oh, well, I just don't know how to vacuum. You know, you'd be like, this is a piece of shit product, and you stop buying it. Um, so I mean, capitalism relies on that anxiety that we have, whether it's about our bodies or our ability or our intellect. Or you know, whether or not we've reached, like, the gold standard or the end game for our life in order to continue to sell us crap, including health. Right? So we could talk about when we did it and [01:22:30] actually touched on it a bit. And so did Grace, like, what is health? How does it get defined? Who gets to define it? Who's allowed to have it so both health as a verb, but also as a noun. And that's something that I'm working on with a colleague in Australia is as fat women are we ever allowed to have health, like, regardless of what behaviours, we engage in regardless of what, like medical tests would say simply by having BMIs over a certain thing. Is health something we are ever allowed to have and what does that mean? I think it's also really important to remember that kind of in terms of like, [01:23:00] capitalism's ability to kind of sell us stuff and make us feel bad is that No-one's OK, you know, like nobody's body is OK And even if you, um even if you have somebody who you know, meets all these standards, um, they have to be vigilant because their body is decaying and like if they don't stop putting all this, um, work into their body And if they don't kind of kind of keep ever, you know, ever vigilant and keep trying and keep in control and all that kind of stuff, then [01:23:30] you know, it's not just that their bodies, um, are never go are never gonna be right. But they're gonna keep on getting worse, you know? So I think I think that capitalism is great at both, you know, wanting healthy kind of people to, like function in society but also feel like no tough to eat. You guys not OK? Yeah. So, yeah, um, we're right at time. But I wanted to ask you one more question just to round. Um, I really love the work of Dr Charlotte Cooper. [01:24:00] Um, tracing fat activism through the ages and history. The history of fat activism and trans, um, activism. And also the F more junior and ate about disability and bodies. And, um, who are your heroes? Each of you I'm taking my hairs here is right. Have and, [01:24:30] like, these are the people who keep me saying, Yeah, well, we talking about that today, so yeah, and lots of people have met some today, so that's cool. Yeah. Yeah. I was kind of gonna say something similar, like, um, and Grace for sure. Lucy, um Ruth who? I think she's stepped out. But you'll get to hear her talk next. And also Anna, like, [01:25:00] I don't know. I think with activism. Most of my ideas haven't been from, like reading books or anything like academic or formal. It has been talking with other people with similar experiences or with different experiences, but like being able to connect the dots just like what Grace was saying, Um, you know and feminists in the seventies were doing with consciousness liaising groups. I think you know, you have sat with, like, the people that you know and looking at [01:25:30] your similar experiences. I just wanna also as well as everybody I know, um I want and how much you wanted. I wanna give a shout out to Savannah Doley who made the television series huge, which is really amazing. And if you want some food for so it's well worth watching. And, uh, it's a miracle that it called television. I mean, obsessed with television anyway, so I watch lots of television, but, um, I could produce [01:26:00] parts of it. I think parts of is an example of everything that is fucked up. It has. It has amazing every aspect of the fucked up nature of I could have actually based my title. Stop talking about television. I just want to say like, Yeah, I think that there are people who do amazing things in places that you wouldn't necessarily expect them in. Savannah. Dooley, I. I think you should. I think you should watch you. I think it's amazing. Robin and Kat, do you have any heroes that you want to Add Monica Junior. It's a weird [01:26:30] thing to say, but I mean, it's that, um in terms of that discussion of, um, the need for work on the social part of social justice, I think that it's necessary. Um, or it was for me. I guess when I read his books to, um understand adopting a position that was equal measures, criticality and compassion. So that's so that's not a very good um, yeah. I mean, I think for me, if I had a single two people out, one would be [01:27:00] Samantha Murray, who's a fat study scholar over in Australia. And she's done a lot of really cool stuff. Um, including talking about Grace talked about earlier in terms of her own ambiguity about, you know, being a fat woman who is quite happy with herself some of the time and all the time and the guilt that she feels when she's having like a bad day about her body because she feels like people turn to her as an inspiration. And so is she ever allowed to not be that happy fat person? Um and then, um, someone local em Marie [01:27:30] Chatel, who's at Vic here in Wellington, She does really interesting work around. Kind of conceptualization of health and health and the sociology of diagnosis. And her work just amazes me. Thank you so much, I. I would be.

IRN: 734
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/clit_fest_wellington_2013_session_3.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004250
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089544
TITLE: Session 3 - C. L. I. T Fest Wellington 2013
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Kim Mcbreen; Maihi Makiha
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; C. L. I. T Fest Wellington 2013; HIV / AIDS; Hui Takatāpui; Kim Mcbreen; Maihi Makiha; Māori; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Tīwhanawhana; Wellington; Wellington Irish Society Hall; church; colonisation; fa'afafine; gender identity; health; heteronormativity; history; identity; indigenous peoples; language; maatauranga continuum; queer; queer straight alliance (QSA); religion; representation; sexuality; support; takatāpui; tangata whenua; tau iwi; whakapapa; whānau
DATE: 1 June 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington Irish Society Hall, 10 Fifeshire Avenue, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the session: Takatāpui, Pasifika ways and beyond queer theory. Participants include Maihi Makiha and Kim Mcbreen.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, uh, uh uh. Greetings to all your ancestors or the lines that come down through us. That, and I you to be here with us today. Um, greetings to your mountains and into your rivers and to your oceans. Um, yeah. So this is our panel. Pretty much I'll pass over to you, let you introduce yourselves and talk, And then we'll do questions blah, blah, blah, blah, [00:00:30] blah. Um, yeah. So I think the kind of framing around this session is that, you know, I'm talking to you now in English. Um, which is weird because we're in. So there you go. So that's that's really important to keep in mind, I think also, when we think about terms like gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, um, intersex asexuals, those are English words. And they have a Really, I guess they have their own history. Um, but they also have their own [00:01:00] context. And so it's It's not just as simple to translate, um, or, you know, all just directly into these English things. So I think it's really important to remember living in the Pacific what those, um, contexts are. And what those words mean outside of just gay lesbian, bisexual, that kind of stuff. So yeah, I see. So start with [00:01:30] Yeah. Uh um, [00:02:00] [00:02:30] [00:03:00] they not [00:03:30] I will never speak English. Um, I've just acknowledged. Firstly, the dear Lord, um, came from a Catholic background. So I started with our lord, um, and thanking him for this day and for this for bringing us together and then moved on and talked about my big pot of land. Um, my big mountain. And it's called and it, um, it's from up north. Um, I'll let you know more about that before, but I was just [00:04:00] trying to explain what I was just talking about in the native to um And then I just acknowledge those who have passed. Um um, especially those who have passed of HIV. Um and, um, bring them into this corridor with the living with us, and I asked them to give us guidance and give us support while we have this corridor today. Um, then I acknowledged my Forbes, all for these beautiful people here are my [00:04:30] leaders in the community. Um, there are many more. There are hundreds of them, actually, and they're very, um the one thing is that we will have in common is that we're Maori first and foremost. So, um, I to you. Thank you. Thank you for coming. Um, now, my name is I hail from the part of the nation from the I hail from, um, [00:05:00] the birthplace of Dave. Um, I'm one of her. And, um, Yeah, I My mountain is my river. Is is It's a big river. It's actually a So, um uh, I also, um my is. And, um, my is not Don't get it mixed up [00:05:30] down this way at the top. Of course, The other one. And, um um uh, I have Mom and Dad. Of course. I need mom and Dad because I wouldn't be here. Um, my dad is He's from which is on the other side of the my mom is from her name is Mag Leaf. Um, three siblings, two siblings, a sister [00:06:00] and a brother, a young brother who's as well. So, um, that's who I am. I've worked for the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, Is the community engagement coordinator Maori, which is basically the so they tell me what to do in the community and I go out and do it. Um, so I go up and down a country. I have a national role lucky enough to have a national role. So I get to fly up and down like a jet setter, thinking on flesh and not even having got $2 [00:06:30] in my car. Um, so, yeah, I get to fly around the country and talk to Maori people, um, about HIV and AIDS and HIV prevention. Um, some out there are really scared about HIV, which is which is all right. It's good to be scared. We all go through emotions when we hear the big word of HIV. And those three letters bring bring a lot of pain and sorrow and death in the end. So, um, I go out to the and talk [00:07:00] on the to the older people to young people about what their niece or nephew are going through and how to make it easier for them to go through the process with people. With HIV, I do this work with my own uncle. My mom's brother died of HIV and he was treated like a dog because people didn't like what he had. And um, anyway, I don't want anyone else to go through that through what my uncle went through. So that's the reason [00:07:30] I do this job. I do today. Um, I'll talk more later on. Talk more later on. Um um one of the big things that I do at the New Zealand nations and the most proud and the most honoured event that I help organise is the, um it's been going for 26 years, and it's event where, um Maori and whoever get to come and, [00:08:00] um, stay the weekend on a or in town. Um, and be who we are. Just be who we are. That's basically it. That's all we do. We have fun while we're doing it. Uh, we have awesome gossip sessions. Um, we have a little bit of beverages in the evening times because we love to beverage and entertain each other, and things are with guitars and everything. So, um, yeah, I've [00:08:30] been honoured to to put on the last three with, um, different iwi. First one in Auckland, the next one in Wellington. And the last one just got last year is hit it at my home all the way in in the bush. So, um, those are some. That's the big event. that I put on, um, for And, um yeah, I'm happy to be a part of it. And, um, be a part of this right here, so I'll carry on some more afterwards. And that's who I am. And [00:09:00] that's where I'm from, handing it over all your Oh, uh um uh [00:09:30] um my name is, um I have to write down my because I have no memory [00:10:00] at the moment. Um, and on that note, at some point, my baby might come up for a feed if she needs to. Um uh, I'm lucky enough to work as a tutor. Um, in in, Um, yeah, and I think the question of of queer as a term, I find it interesting, because to me, the term queer, [00:10:30] um, implies, you know, the the reason that word was chosen is because it's about disrupting a heteronormative culture. But if your culture is not heteronormative, why would you identify as queer? Um, thinking about queer stuff, thinking about sexuality? Um, I was trying to think where to start and the people [00:11:00] that I really respect, People like Annie and Wana Jackson say you should always start at the beginning. Um, and where they start is basically creation. Um, so if you imagine a line out in front of me that stretches stretches past the arrival of my European ancestors here stretches past the arrival of my Pacifica. Here it stretches [00:11:30] all the way back to creation, and it continues behind me all the way to eternity. And there's no milestones because we can't see into the future. If this line this line represents the knowledge and the wisdom of generations, Um, and it's what, uh, calls the continuum. So if you imagine just in front of me so the recent past, [00:12:00] there's an intersecting line and that lines colonisation, and I think that it's helpful when you think of that line to imagine, or to remember the scene from psycho with a knife. Um, because, um, yeah, because colonisation brings with it cultural imperialism, Western cultural, imperial imperialism, which is the denial [00:12:30] of anyone else's knowledge. Or so the purpose of colonisation is to try and break this continuum. Uh, colonisation seeks to cut our knowledge off from the past by denying that we had laws, let alone philosophies or an intellectual tradition, and it seeks to cut off the possibility of our culture [00:13:00] developing by replacing our with Western understandings of it, our colonisers would have us believe that our knowledge is exactly what Europeans recorded it to be when they arrived here. No more or no less than that. And we're We're supposed to believe that the Western academic tradition can better understand and represent Maori than a Maori academic tradition can. [00:13:30] Whether we're talking about Western trained researchers 200 odd years ago or now, somehow they are supposed to have a better take on the truth than anyone else does. And finally, we're supposed to believe that authentic was fixed in time at the point of colonisation and didn't come from anything. And it's not developing into anything [00:14:00] those distorted views of our have endured since the colonisers started their project here. But our traditions have also endured, and we can use those traditions to ensure that instead of cutting us off from our knowledge, colonisation is just a small blip on this continuum. And that's where, as we do it, it comes in. [00:14:30] So is about ensuring the integrity of this continuum, the continuum. Um, it's about fixing up the damage of colonisation and allowing our to continue to develop, and there's five statements that sum up. What we do in the first is that is the basis of the second is that we have faith in our we have faced that they acted intentionally and we have faced that their intentions were good. [00:15:00] Third statement is that we have faith in our that's, um the oral traditions, the creation stories, Um, our had generations in which to understand the, um they had generations to experiment, to learn the important skills and values and making and maintaining the relationships that they needed. And they embedded that knowledge [00:15:30] in those oral traditions. So we need to have faith in them. Um, the fourth statement is, that is the first law here, and it's the only legitimate law here. And the final statement is that colonisation has led to imposter through cultural imperialism. So that last statement acknowledges that because of the process of colonisation, some of the stuff that we think of as [00:16:00] is coming out of that past is actually of recent origin. It's actually come from the point post colonisation, and it doesn't reflect our it's actually reflecting the values of our colonisers and possibly also the stories that they told us about ourselves. Um, and that's especially true of things like gender and sexuality, where the cultures of the colonisers and the were [00:16:30] really, really different. Um, so if we were to look to our what does it tell us about sexuality and gender? Um, if we look at creation stories, first of all, there's a whole heap of different creation stories. Um, if you look at the stories that I learned when I was growing up, they tended to be based on writers like George Grey. Um, and when you look at those stories, [00:17:00] you would imagine that our is as patriarchal and heteros as our culture. Um, yeah, if you think about the way Well, the stories I grew up with, I don't know what you all heard. But the way that romance is told, it sounds a little bit like a rape scenario. Um, she then gives birth to a bunch of Children who are all male. [00:17:30] Um, those males make a female out of dirt. One of the males has sex with that. That first female. She gives birth to a daughter who becomes the first woman Tana has sex with the first woman. She finds out that Tony is her father and flees in shame to the underworld. Um, I think that's a pretty typical playing out of a Western male [00:18:00] female dichotomy and power relationship. Um, and most of the riders, when they first started hearing our creation traditions, that's the That's the way that they retold them. But that's not how my people talk about creation. Um, and traditions. No. Had many partners. Um, papa was with before [00:18:30] Papa gets with, um so and are together, uh, they have a child, goes away to bury the while is a way. Hook up, uh, comes back, have a fight. Wins. Goes away again. Um, [00:19:00] yeah, it's I really like this tradition. Um, because it really you can see how it reflects the world that were living in at the time you've got You've got going away and coming back and going away and coming back. Um, so, yeah, so is the ocean. Um and, um, yeah, you can see why they would imagine [00:19:30] that is with both And, um, that makes sense. What I'm really interested in is all the time that is going away and coming back is still there with. So I'm really interested in the relationship between and because if you think that look intimate, I would say that look more intimate. [00:20:00] Um, yeah, so that's that's That's some of tradition. Um, and then if you look at the traditions of it's quite different again. Jones, um, talks about their creation traditions and I. I summarise what he's written. Um, so had multiple partners other than, um, [00:20:30] the words that Jones uses to talk about their relationships in English, Um, is that they were both Both were bisexual and asexuals, um so had had sex with other partners. Gave birth to Children. Uh, who is [00:21:00] who was and Jones is telling is also male. Um, had sex with another male, uh, gives birth. Um, yeah, I think this This is a really cool tradition. There's heaps to think about. Uh, it's not my tradition, so I'm not going to speculate or explore that at all, but I wanted to show you that the traditions as know them as we remember [00:21:30] them, show a complex understanding of both gender and sexuality. Um, when you think about them, you can see that monogamy is not privileged at all. you can see that males aren't especially privileged. You can see that heterosexuality isn't necessarily privileged. And the more that you look into them, the more you can see that within the traditions, neither gender nor sexuality are seen as fixed. [00:22:00] Um, I'm gonna stop there because I wanna make sure that we've got lots of time for questions. Um, but I wanted to. Before I start, I want to put, um, some challenges to you. The first is to explore your indigenous creation traditions wherever you come from, find out what your had to say about the world before their traditions were swallowed up and reinterpreted through the narrow [00:22:30] minded patriarchy. And the second is wherever you are now, support support organisations support solutions. Don't try to be an expert on them. Um, be prepared to learn from instead of critiquing or trying to teach them. For example, if you want to learn about if you want to learn or Maori [00:23:00] law consider not going to a colonial institution where a is understood within a Western tradition, Um, where it is at best, relegated to an offshoot of anthropology. Instead, consider supporting your local. Um, you are all across the nation? Um, yeah. And at is Central. It's the best place to learn about it. [00:23:30] Um, I want you to think about whose culture you privilege when you organise stuff, whatever you're doing. Um, and when you're doing things like setting up a safer spaces policy and this isn't a criticism of this at all of this way, but to consider when you're setting that stuff up, what would it mean to prioritise? What would it mean to do safer spaces has to come. [00:24:00] Um, is it something that you could do? And if it's not, what would you have to change to be able to do it at the next week? At the very least, it's gonna mean having really meaningful relationships with, um, yeah, so take home message. Um, there's a heap of really valuable stuff in our traditions, and they hold generations of knowledge [00:24:30] and solutions to the problems that the West is only just starting to recognise things like he patriarchy, the less energy that wherever are having to put into defending our rights to cultural survival. The more time and energy we can put into invigorating our own traditions and exploring them for their diverse and unique solutions to the problems we're facing. I think that's [00:25:00] something we should all be supporting. Been here. I think there was, um, something really good Kim. For someone who is sleep deprived. It was stunning. Hun, um and I'm really honoured to to to be on this panel, Um, with these beautiful women, um, who [00:25:30] are really knowledge and, uh um, right. Gifts to to our to our community, to our to our, um And I think we should get on the and, um, tap them before tap that knowledge. Tap that, um, before they go back to their homes. Um, can you have started me off on a, um you made me think about, uh, about a lot of things. A lot of things. [00:26:00] And so I do about, um Oh, where to begin. Where to begin This cope alone is huge. And it's more than just three people sitting up here. I have to say, um, the ways and beyond queer theory. Um, you knocked it on the head for two straight straight in the first slide. What is clear. And it's a blank white page, and I have to before I start before I start. Um, [00:26:30] I'm not bashing. Um I'm just saying things that are from my heart and what I believe in. OK, um so and what I've been taught in that has been taught to me from my my um So, um, right there. And then again, it is it's it's a term. And so you can't put a PAA term on an indigenous person just to make feel better for themselves because they found a word. Yay! [00:27:00] We found a word. Talk you out. No, it's not. No, it's not. So, um, the starting point I'm gonna start with is this on my hand? This is a, um a speaking stick. And it's also a learning, uh, listening stick as well. This was presented at the last. The thing I talked about before And this Taco Taco tells the story of Rangi and Papa. [00:27:30] This side here is this side Here is these in the middle and are are their Children not all of their Children, because there's in different stories. There are a lot of Children, and these reads down here is our connection their connection. Sorry. The God's connections to us. We call to people. OK, um so that that's [00:28:00] where I wanted to start off with my Is that, um, right at the beginning, right? The creation story right at the start. There's a bit of homophobia right there. And then there's all these male gods like him said, and one womb or one space, 100 or so of them lying there all naked and doing nothing. So you better ask yourself, Hey, to [00:28:30] be honest, come on, right at the beginning. Patient. There's men getting it on, I'm sure. So, um and I have to say A from Lisbon stood and said that at the games opening, he stood and said that he's a straight man in south and and that's what he brought up. And I thought, I'm gonna use that and I get Yeah, 100. And so men sitting in this beautiful space in the dark or naked What do you think they're gonna do? [00:29:00] So, um, goes back goes back. It's a pre-op word. The word, um, like our lovely Pacific, our lovely people from the, um there is a lot of different words and different iwi and different and different. Um, the word was found in the writings way back in the day and way [00:29:30] back in the day. The writings of you heard of the who she's there and one of the stories, Um, that is written in it. Um, and it's an old famous book. I always forget the name of it, but you'll find it online. Just go online. Google that stuff. Um, there's a writing of the word is [00:30:00] written in in there, and it's and the word means companion of the same sex. So just a companion of the same sex and, um had a companion, right? Yeah. Had a companion of the same sex and his name was So the word goes back way back in the days, [00:30:30] Um and it wasn't until until the arrival of the church, um, and and that the word was demolished and, um wiped out and basically said that that word stands for gay, and that's bad the Bible. So you won't do it again and you won't say that word again. OK, I'm off a movement that is reviving the word and bringing it back to our people. [00:31:00] This is what we do in we live the word we breathe the word we shout it out in pride and and, um, it's back, It's it's back. It's way back now. 26 years since the has been going, so the I believe is back. Um, however, there's a little bit of a mix to the story before anything before any one of us. We are Maori, [00:31:30] first and foremost. We from gods and from, um, our full beers. So before I tell anyone and I stand up at, I don't stand up at and go, my name is I'm I say my name is and I come from and that's all you need to know. If I'm, I'll let you know later on when we're having a drink. But it's not something that I get up first and foremost and say, Yeah, I'm but the first and foremost I'm [00:32:00] Maori and I come from and I agree. So, um um, with the word as well and different, it means different things back in the days meant a companion of the same sex. It also meant, um, in other places, um, the local midwife. The person was the local midwife, had strong hands, delivered [00:32:30] a big brown babies pulled babies out. Um, and other places were the the Chiefs, um, friend in bed while he was out at war because no women were allowed to go to war. So the chief had a little friend who would host them at night. Um, the word And I is, um another war story is, um I've heard that with the people, [00:33:00] um, with the young, feminine looking boys, the really camp things and the like myself, um, pretty and gorgeous people and tries the the men to come more inshore inshore from Dubai. And, um, the Paki men would think, Oh, look at these beautiful Maori women laying with their back showing, of course, long hair painting of the like sitting down and they'll come in and they get really, [00:33:30] really, really close like, this far away. And all the Maori boys would turn around and and they did, and they get killed right there. Me So they were kind of like the the Yeah, um I've heard stories of that as well. In my own local community, we didn't have the word. We had a word which is a bit we're renowned for this. We talk Maori English, mix it together, and next minute the Maori vocabulary has got an S in it, and we don't even have an S. So [00:34:00] my was their home was one word, um, that we used to that our old people used for a feminine acting male, and he had a role in the community. His role was to, um, decorate the kitchen so beautifully with every flower and everything that he could find outside in the native bush. He was that guy. He was the person who taught the girls how to do and [00:34:30] swing the poi. He was, um he had a lot of roles in the community. He he didn't. He not only stood on the and me, he could also get up there and do a and entertain everyone while they're having dinner with the poor. OK, so the word, um, voice is is who we are. Um, a old co writer of mine always said, Don't forget where you're from [00:35:00] and who you What? So, um, first and forth to my again, my name is and I come from the family questions anyone. Don't be shy. Morning. [00:35:30] Now that that word, you know, go all around the world, and they, um they look at indigenous people, you know, see Dutch doesn't belong to the Dutch. There was a word given to the Netherland people by a person as I was told so as Maori our word do we need to be encompassed by a word that encompasses us Cause your name? [00:36:00] I'm first and foremost I'm not a kiwi. I'm not a Maori. I'm not a New Zealander. I'm too hot. So it's Maori, our work that Oh, yeah, great question to start with. And I knew it had come from him because he's from I believe, um what I believe in is that it's up [00:36:30] to the individual where they're from. Um and if they believe that they're Maori, they believe they're They believe they they believe they're Dutch. It's up to the individual to either. Um, yeah, believe it and take it to me. Is Maori our word to me? Yeah, I believe is a human being. But to encompass the people, I believe it's [00:37:00] a Maori people. We are I don't wanna say it's another label. It's a name that I'm proud of, that I'm proud to be called Maori and identifies where I'm from when I'm outside of the country because no one knows my little town, but just do the or the Yeah, so I think [00:37:30] it identifies me when I'm out of the country. Um, yeah. Don't say it much when I'm here in the country. I I can say and stuff like that, but yeah, that's what I believe Maori is for me. Next big fish and not from the side of the room. Do you have anything to add to that or not? Really? Um, [00:38:00] I think I probably agree with both of you. Um, I think that that Maori is often a really useful term, but that within or when you use the term Maori, the specific relationship you have with your your specific gets lost. Um, And so I think it is really important that that we say where exactly we are from. Um, but I think politically it's a useful term as well. [00:38:30] I don't know, like my Maori music five. Um, I've got another one for you. You know, we we all different different areas different, and we all have different, um, on creation and all of that, um um [00:39:00] uh, is not God of the sea, you know, is, um Is is the coral Everything that is alive in the sea And is the sea the body, the shimmering, the waves, the FS fence and all of that. You know, um um those are all the matriarchal [00:39:30] things, which is water, which bursts us. I can say I know. Tell them you know, I, I When? When you when you talked about, um, the creation and all of that and about the men and that, um And where I only can talk from where I come from. Um, you know, they they talked about all the gods in there, but in all those gods had their female. Um and, [00:40:00] you know, I watched on TV one time about bringing back, um uh, marriages tinny, not having the marriages as a man and a woman as they have today. But bring back the marriages that were, you know, because you took you you touched on, um how, uh, who had her lovers and had his lovers, whether they were male or female. Who am I going with this? [00:40:30] He has a different story that come on, somebody. I eat my name. Um good. Everybody. My name is and I'm feeling very prig in here today, especially if you listen to our pan of speakers. Um, I just wanted to meet to you guys. It was, um, really a mind opening experience for me And to hear [00:41:00] from your point of view, this, um, way of describing ourselves, I guess. And I just wanted to touch on your about, um, about the creation story. And one of the questions that I've always put to my to my ancestors, um on the East Coast is is really a man as a woman, who are we as people to place those as the pro? [00:41:30] Who are we to put that on Our God. So when you are speaking about this creation story and how we are descendants of these, we are the love beings and so must be placed into the male body or the female body. But we are an instance of each of them. You know, the to my understanding, that is the that is the life source, and that is not a male or [00:42:00] female. And from and from comes comes all of these, um, life forces around us, you know? And so when we were touching on, if we are Maori, I feel like if you need to say that you are Maori. It is to accommodate to others. If you were to say that you are queer, it is to accommodate to others. Or, you know, this is so others understand who you are. But as long as you know who you are inside, [00:42:30] no labour can really define you. That's what I'm getting from today. Why stunning, babe? Wrap that up? Yeah, I just wanted to also give my and you to you guys. You guys have just totally in my mind. Um, so you're gonna do so much to think of that. So thank you. [00:43:00] I'll echo that, um, really mind opening lots and lots to learn. Um, I rather you charity. That supports, um, queer train, um, into New Zealand to, um, set up support groups at their schools. And, um, I find it really hard because I want our organisation to be bicultural, and I want to [00:43:30] bit about your communities. But I'm finding it really hard to do it because I don't feel like there's really many resources out there. Yeah, just gonna go down. There aren't many resources out there. Yeah, there aren't. And we're like a minority inside a minority inside a minority, especially Pacific and and and Maori people and people. So, um, yeah, um, I understand [00:44:00] your struggle. I understand where you're coming from. And, um, the only thing I can say it's not a remedy, but just take our contacts when we go And I think you've got my we have each other day, so we will try our best. But it's Yeah, it's really hard to find, First of all who are still at school. And the hard thing with us is, we don't want to spring them while they're at school. He don't wanna be doing [00:44:30] that because they're going through such a big time. But it's really cool when you do find one who's proud of who they are, know where they're from and they're young. It's just using that person finding that one person is the key. Yeah, and we have a couple in Auckland, but I still haven't found one in Wellington. They've grown up and got big, and now we're in the club mi mix to and not like that. [00:45:00] Um, thank you for that. That was awesome. Um, my question is, um I I'm really curious to see where you make to know where you are making and the work that you do And what are the obstacles also, But mainly, like the way we are in the work that you're doing that you are actually getting through the messages that you want to get across. You accomplished. [00:45:30] I know my work's doing good, but they tell me, Yeah, and I have a, uh, a support network, a national support network of and they'll just ring me and tell me how it is and what the facts are. So they haven't rang me. And so that means it's all good. I'm doing a good job. As soon as they ring me. I know there's something there's something up or there's a bit of a rough, but I try and keep in contact with all of them via our [00:46:00] Facebook pages, our websites and stuff. So, um, yeah, I know I'm doing good so far so far, but it's, um Yeah, I know that the message is getting through, like, who is it getting through to the most or like, where are you having the most success? Like, um, you know, what is it that you're doing? That um, it's working. [00:46:30] Yeah, it's the for me. It's the for me because I bring the together. It started off annually, but it's gone by annually because of funding. But, um, I keep in contact all the time, and and it's the bringing everyone together to celebrate who we are and where we're from. And, um, that's the tool that's working for me. Yeah, um, if I could just add to some of the [00:47:00] the panel, I think some of the important messages that have come through today have been understanding the the context or the cultural context that, um, that we have to look at. So particularly when you look at, um, traditions whose traditions How is that tradition? Come about, Um, is one of the messages that I've heard here today, Um, so I think that some of the [00:47:30] barriers, uh, might be what we think we know and therefore understanding where did that thing come from? And is that genuine thinking? Um, because that, you know, you can go off on all sorts of rolling tracks and the Maori words are supporting. I think right now, but I think I just wanted to add that I think That's one of the important messages I heard today was understanding the context of, um, of [00:48:00] what we know. So, for example, I've learned more today about the fact that I am actually privileged as a Maori male because of the privilege that has been mimicked by Maori men from a European colonised patriarchal system. So you know those sort of things? Uh, I mean, a lot. And I think that's the same. Also in the specific context as well. But But there's [00:48:30] other messages from you recorded on that, Uh, maybe slightly tell us. Well, I, I you know me, me and, um, me and my used to come to your question. Me and my, you know, we been up when he was 16. And, you know, I did 10 years with the AIDS Foundation, and we used to go to the schools. I think that going back into the school should be brought back home, you know, because we did 10 years in the school, and and we did. We did very well, didn't [00:49:00] we? And and and up in Northland, you know, there was we we had transgender that were 14. Um, you know, we had a great diversity within all the schools up there. So, you know, to the panel, I think we should be going back to the schools. And it's not about, um, out team them or anything. It's about giving them a voice. She fucking, [00:49:30] um, just quickly to answer. Mark. Um, I don't know what I'm doing. That's that's working. Um, Mark and I are friends. I'm a complete geek. I, um I write essays. I put them on the internet. I don't know whether it makes a difference. Yeah, thank you for your contributions. I've really appreciated hearing today and from the essays that Kim shared with me sort of previously online, which I found really useful. [00:50:00] I can just share one little story. I was really privileged, um, about two years ago to be the minute secretary to a workplace where I was the only in the room. As part of that experience, I needed to share my So I researched my heritage that got me onto the whole thing of I'm sixth generation New Zealander. I know where my where my people come from. It also was connecting up with my faith journey where I identify with a my nose, [00:50:30] um, heritage, which is multi Pantheon gods now as a for those who don't know it is the national religion of Denmark that was squashed in the year 10,000 because they wanted to do deals with Christians for trade purposes. In 1972 they turned it around and said, Yeah, as a is back as an official religion. But those of us, you know, revisiting our creation myth, which are there, and a very had to actually wade through all of the Christian overlay [00:51:00] to get back to what is there like Who's my personal deity? Um is both a father and a mother and a shape changer and, you know, has those multiple relationships. And this is a personal path I have done. But it was spurred by a need from externals. And so, hearing Tabby talking about working with young people, I thought, I think, yeah, potentially. Every young person, given the example of others can be doing their own paths and sort of journeys, and may they may not be ready for it, but it's, you know, something [00:51:30] that I I would recommend has been really valuable for people to actually do that. Looking back as well as looking journey. And I don't know if you've got any sort of insights or suggestions for how to help support people on that, because it can be actually quite challenging. I think. Um, yeah. Um, we wanted to find essays online. Um, I have a blog called, [00:52:00] um, that I think is linked to on the clip. Um, yeah, on the spill about this pen. Did either of you have suggestions or here as well? Suggestions on support for people trying to find find themselves [00:52:30] from experience. And it's going home. Finding your roots going to to where you believe home is is a good starting point where you believe home is and we we call it where you feel the place you can stand and say, This is my home where I'm from. This is my land. This is my turf. And even if it is 32 Balmoral Street, [00:53:00] go start. Everyone's got to start somewhere. Hm. That's one suggestion I can give for someone who's trying to find themselves. I was just thinking also that, um, something I got a lot out of. And from, um, this idea about, um, the need to create space and now, um, traditions, because colonisation has been such [00:53:30] a conscripting experience. And when I think about those stories that we all had at primary school and most of us, um, which tell our creation stories as if they are that simple or that or that modern to one particular and so um so close to Christian, Um, there's this lack of space and and a lot of us as Maori have have, um, brought that to some, not [00:54:00] through any fault of our own, just because that's how it's gone. And I think about finding ourselves about opening up that space as much as possible. So we have room to my, um, in our own traditions and um, not not be, um, constricted. And that's what I really I like your metaphor about the ocean in that way because it opens up all the space and that construction happens in queer [00:54:30] spaces that construction happens in Maori spaces. That happens all over the show when we are a minority, and I think we we're trying to if it's us, as people are trying to make a connection to a theory that the which has maybe got a lot of roots and notions. We need lots of space to go. How is that gonna? How is that gonna work for us? Because, um yeah, that counts for [00:55:00] feminism. Hugely. And how is it different for us? How is it different in relation to our traditions? Um, yeah. So heaps and heaps of space, but at the same time, lots of, um, lots of stimulation. And when you say come, you don't know what, um, what your work does or whether it does, It's like when I'm at university and I'm going Oh, boy, am I. God, I love to start with this. I go to your blog and I go to I and I go here and here and here and here. [00:55:30] And those are the spaces that open up that space for me to be able to bring something back to my class or some of my people that I'm surrounded by, that opens up space for them. And this with the this question, May I ask the question for my like, own personal experience of thinking out loud? Um, I'm I'm from the youth from the United States and [00:56:00] they sort of almost, I guess, like on the Internet, like identified as a queer woman of colour. But yeah, those terms do fail to to, like, define it experience in a lot of ways and just thinking about space, though I think that what the terms, like what the term queer did to me was like Give, I guess it's space for [00:56:30] identity definition that was like outside out of the family because, um, I I come from sort of like conservative family. And I guess, um and just interested in like that that that problem, I guess where if you want to be connected with some kind of like cultural heritage, um, but to do it, like on a path different from how your parents or how your family has received that cultural heritage like I was wondering if that's ever been [00:57:00] I mean in in in a different context, obviously. But if that's ever been a problem in your research or in your identity path, um, I'm Maori Catholic, And so the church is a is a huge component in my little village, where the Catholic Church, um um originated and was born, um, the the Catholic Church came. The missionaries came through the harbour and, um, started [00:57:30] the Catholic religion in this harbour Where I where I'm from, Um, my old people took on the church with open arms and, um, took on it, so took the church on so much that we don't have carvings on our in in in the, um because, uh, the church said it was pornographic. Um, so all the all the carvings came down of the and they were buried. Um, so, like, [00:58:00] growing up, I was like, how dare they I want I want a I want to go to like I've been to I've been everywhere, and they've got beautiful and they've got we don't. And I was so jealous and I was angry at my old people. But then I was like, Oh, it's not your fault. Um um, So, yeah, I went through a religion hunting thingy like, Where's like Maori had a religion before before the Catholic Church. Where's it gone? What's happened to it? Where is it? I try [00:58:30] to get it out of my old people, but they wouldn't say it was I was kind of dishonouring my my who took the church on. So here I went through that more questions, more fighting with my own people, and, um, to find my my cultural identity was that I was lucky enough to grow up in it right in it, right in the heart of it, I I'm a baby, as they say, so born on the marae [00:59:00] and just lived and eat and breathed it. Um, the language, the, um the the all those kinds of things that acknowledge the culture. It's all on the funerals, weddings, birthdays you live and breath. And you it just becomes natural. Your So that's how I look, my cultural identity, Like, you know, for someone trying to go back to find their cultural identity, go [00:59:30] back to the or something like that. I don't know. Go back to where you believe your home is. Like I was saying before, Yeah, my my probably couldn't be more different from yours. Um, I you know, the the diverse reality of growing up in this colonised land. I, um I grew up. My my family is, um I was adopted into our family who were told that I was [01:00:00] guaranteed by the crown that I was by the government that I was, um so I didn't. I didn't even find out that I was from until I was 30 something. Um and yes, So my journey is really different. Um, that was when I went to the, um to get the support that I needed to go home and talk to my in the bluff. [01:00:30] Um, yeah, I think to me, you know, being queer, being at the, um, I can call myself queer. I can put myself outside of the culture by giving myself this label, but actually, I want my culture to make room for me. I don't want to stand outside it and give myself a label to do that. And I'm not saying [01:01:00] that it's easy. It has been reasonably easy for me because I'm doing it as a nearly 40 year old woman. Um, much harder when you're younger. Um, but that's that's what we have to be working towards. It's got to be the ideal to to make our cultures have a home for us. If I don't already [01:01:30] Well, I don't think you'll find, um, culture within the religion because religion belongs to them, you know, it's word. It's the word. You know, when I was growing up we did our things to And it was all, all all all our prayers All our chances were all too I you know, when you when when you do see was clever We we took on Christianity, but we decided the whole book into Maori so we could still teach [01:02:00] our people our language, you know? So we we put the whole book into Maori, all those scriptures in there, and it's not about their um um, David, whatever. I don't know, inside the bible, it's the words behind the words that, you know, because one of one of the acts and the treaty is that, um they abolished, um, to, you know, and and taking on Christianity and this making this book into Maori. Well, [01:02:30] you instead of reading it in English, it was all deciphered into Maori. But it was the words behind the words that our people we were still teaching our own. I don't call it religion, but way of life. Yeah, I'm stay tuned to echo what people have feedback about, You know, everything that you've shared with us. Um and also the honesty and candidness [01:03:00] what you've given us as well. So, um, if you'd like to join me in thanking our families, and I'll pass over to Kevin to continue and back up, [01:03:30] uh uh to be here. Uh, [01:04:00] you know, with the, uh, uh, colonisation Or uh uh [01:04:30] uh being, uh uh. [01:05:00] And, uh [01:05:30] and, um uh, [01:06:00] that was really book and [01:06:30] thank you that to me like, Oh, you don't want a to know Have happy you help me. Oh, [01:07:00] hi.

IRN: 733
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089543
TITLE: Session 2 - C. L. I. T Fest Wellington 2013
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Catherine Healy; Chanel Hati; Kate Scarlet
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; 2000s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; C. L. I. T Fest Wellington 2013; Carol Leigh; Catherine Healy; Chanel Hati; Eliza Mary King; Graeme Lee; HIV / AIDS; Inland Revenue Department; Kate Scarlet; Manukau City Council (Regulation of Prostitution in Specified Places) Bill (2010); Maurice Williamson; Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; New Zealand First; Prostitution Reform Act (2003); STI; Tim Barnett; Wellington; Wellington Irish Society Hall; Winston Peters; abuse; entrapment; harassment; hate crime; health; history; homosexual law reform; justice; law; mandatory sexual health testing; migrants; needle exchange programme; police; racism; safe sex; sex; sex work; solicitation; stereotypes; stigma; transgender
DATE: 1 June 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington Irish Society Hall, 10 Fifeshire Avenue, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the session: Sex work. Participants include Kate Scarlet, Catherine Healy, Vita, Chanel Hati and Rouge.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi, everyone. I'm Kate. I work as a community lawyer at Community Law. And I specialise in employment law. Know a little bit about contract law through privacy and human rights. Hey, um, my name is, um I am an independent sex worker here in Wellington. Um, and, um, I also work for a union and do part time activity stuff. Yeah, that's me. Um, [00:00:30] my name is Catherine Healy, and my role is to coordinate the prostitutes collective, which came of age last year, and we turned 25. And also, it's 10 years since we decriminalised sex work. So, um, it's a real honour to be here with you. Thank you. Hi, everybody. Um, [00:01:00] my name is Chanel, and I'm the transgender community liaison for the, uh, for the NC PC. I'm also an out outreach worker and I liaison with the transgender, uh, sex workers that are working in the in the industry, not just on the street, but privately as well. So that, um yeah, and I and I also do a bit of work at NZ. PC and, um, have [00:01:30] worked in the sex industry on for about four years. And so, um, Katherine's gonna tell us a little bit or we're all gonna jump in. And we're gonna talk a bit about the history of sex workers rights in a, um I guess Thank you, Rouge. The history, Um, in part, I have to acknowledge all the people who have lived in the sex industry and, um, going back in time. I was driving to work the other day, and I was listening to [00:02:00] an interview on national radio and there was a discussion about someone called I think Eliza King. I haven't Googled her, but apparently she was around in the 18 sixties in Taranaki, and she went back to the UK and advocated for sex workers in some capacity over there. So I was really interested to hear that. So if anyone, um sitting [00:02:30] there with the iPhone on you could have Google her name, probably. And there might be a bit of information, but going, you know, we know going back in time, that sex work was alive and well in a way before we were sitting in our massage parlour in the 19 eighties and working on the street and came up with the idea to form ourselves into a collective. Um, we came together [00:03:00] in quite interesting times. Really. We had HIV on the horizon and, um, we were quite concerned about the nature of HIV and the perception that the clients would have. And ultimately we we were concerned about the dent it would make in our pockets. So we felt that we had to organise as a kind of means to self, you know, preserve, but also to market who we were and to [00:03:30] try and combat all those negative perceptions that people have. And we were. It's fair enough to say we were bloody fed up because, you know, everyone speaks for sex workers and speaks about them, and everyone has an opinion, and it's quite rare to hear what it was back then from sex workers. In fact, you know, there was a a big feature in the evening post at the time, and it was appalling. It had [00:04:00] a criminologist whom we later bonded with Jan Jordan, um was commentating and the police were commentating and talking about prostitutes there. Some prostitutes that and you know, it was all in the frame of crime. So in the eighties, we had a lot to moan about, um, we had a lot to dream about. And, you know, we really didn't think we'd get anything off the ground. You you would probably relate to that. You know, when you have these ideas [00:04:30] and you're drinking and you're smoking and you're thinking, Oh, yeah, we need to do a union we need to do, um, something, you know, et cetera. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's, um, meet later and so very much. We came out of of a kind of informal way of connecting with each other. I don't remember anyone really taking minutes, actually, Um, and to this day, I don't Have you seen us take minutes? Um, [00:05:00] you know, we we met on the beaches, and we met in the pubs, and we met in people's flats. And we just, you know, did a lot of talking. And, um, we brought our mates on board, you know, like, we were quite isolated in our massage parlours at the time. And for those of you, um, who are far too young to know, massage parlours housed most of the sex workers, and the other part of the sex worker population was working on the street and [00:05:30] if you got a conviction related to prostitution, you were kicked out of your massage parlour and and or, um, if you were working on the street, you could be arrested. And it was quite a common thing. Most of us knew someone who had been arrested and taken to court. I was arrested. Um, do do you remember the bad 2, 200 Children about [00:06:00] when I was a sex worker on the street? We, um they had a lot of undercover operations where they would go out and send undercover policemen out. And, um well, they actually called it a tranny run. That's what they called it. So they would send undercovers out. And it was just a complete waste of time. They pick us up, and they would, um, take us behind a building and put us in a [00:06:30] in a police wagon, take us to the police station, process us and then we'd go to court and get $100 fine. And then we'd be back out on the street again, and, um but we knew that it was that it was risky. It was a It was risk keeping out there, but, um, you know, it was just a way for us, because in those days it was hard for trained skills to find employment, [00:07:00] which is why a lot of them went onto the streets. So, uh, yeah, it's, um, an interest. It was an interesting lifestyle. But, um, yeah, it just with all the with all the with all the the arrests with the police and getting harassed by the police, getting searched, getting your bag search sometimes, depending on what city you were in. If the police [00:07:30] stopped you, they pushed you into a corner and, um, strip you of your clothes. That wasn't the biggest city like Auckland, but Wellington was a little bit better, but yeah, those were those were quite well, not difficult days, but it was a whole a different era back then. So we, um when we came together formally and in an informal way, um, we were clear that we wanted, um, all [00:08:00] people who were sex workers and, uh, some of the groups around the world. Our contemporaries, for instance, had been quite gender focused and just said for women And but in New Zealand and also in Australia, uh, similar groups were coming out at the time and forming. And we said that we were clear, that we wanted men, women, transgender and that we would, um, be together. And that's that's the way we are today. 25 years on. [00:08:30] Um, but I I take my head off too, in terms of history and the new wave of our history. Really? The French in 1975 locked themselves in a church and, uh, to, you know, to protest about the treatment of the police. And then the English locked themselves in a church as well. And, um, Selma James wrote a seminal piece, um, [00:09:00] prostitution in the House of the Lord. If you go Google Selma James, she's very much, uh, still at it. Um, she's now in her eighties, and it was really, really interesting for us because this sounded so exotic and so far off. And we thought, Well, you know, I wonder if we can do this in a little, Um, you know, get our own organisation, our movement going, but, you know, rolling forward a few decades now, these [00:09:30] international organisations look to us for leadership in terms of what we've achieved around the human rights legislation that is in place today for sex workers. Um, 10 years ago, we had laws against practically everything. Um, if you're a sex worker, don't sneeze. Um, because it might be misinterpreted for soliciting. You know, it was like soliciting was a thing of offering yourself for the purposes of prostitution [00:10:00] in a public place. And it was very hard to be a sex worker and and go about your business. Um, for instance, A A room in a massage parlour, um, was considered a public place. So as Chanel described on the street, you know, it certainly into the parlours. You know, the police would come and they'd pretend to be undercover, pretend to be clients and try and go about and trapping us. And, you know, occasionally [00:10:30] they managed to intimidate us as well. And, um, but, you know, it was very difficult. So when the law changed 10 years ago, it did. It allowed us to work in a variety of different ways, which, um, is absolutely amazing for many, many, many sex workers around the world. They cannot believe that we have street based sex work decriminalised in New Zealand. Um, usually, when [00:11:00] laws are put in place. They allow for brothels, legal brothels. And there's usually a very controlled kind of environment where sex workers are managed. Because, really, they're Children, aren't they? And they need management or they're ultimately naughty. And if we let them manage themselves, they'd be out of control. But in New Zealand, we have the, um, private sector, and I think it's it's really brilliant to know that 40% [00:11:30] of sex workers manage their own sex work. And that's a vastly different statistic to what was around in my day. Where probably about, um, I don't know, about 5% were able to manage their own sex work. We're allowed to. And that was the street based sex workers. So should hand over to you. Um, so I have only been a sex worker since prostitution has been decriminalised. [00:12:00] So I can't talk about you know what sex work was like in the past? Um, however, I can talk a little bit about my experiences, um, working both, um, being managed, um, in, uh, in agency and, uh, working for myself. Um, and the, um, you know, the the pros that come from, um it's definitely the most autonomous working [00:12:30] arrangement that I've ever had in terms of work that I've done. I've had the most autonomy over it. Um, yeah. I was wondering what are the kind of main differences? Like what? What are the main differences that you have seen since, like from before prostitution was decriminalised to like, Now that it's not illegal? Well, our our relationship [00:13:00] with the police between sex works and the police has improved a lot. If you're on the street like before, the law changed if you were on the street and a lot of a lot of assaults and things like that went unreported because the police wouldn't listen to us, and we didn't trust them. And, uh and, uh, a few girls, Yeah, um, were assaulted and they couldn't go anywhere. So but now, [00:13:30] but now that the law has changed, that's that's that's that's changed. And, yeah, the police are much better. Much, much the communication between us. We have, uh, um uh, police liaison officers that we deal with at the NC PC? Yeah, and I. I think you can't underestimate the power of that dynamic between sex workers and the police. You know, [00:14:00] I wouldn't say it's all hunky dory. But certainly, you know, to know that your next client isn't going to be an undercover police officer. Um, is a pretty amazing thing. I mean, I'm not sex a sex worker today, but, you know, I, I I'm just often struck by how you know that. That must be to know, You know, that you're not about you, you know, You know, you're not going to be set up and worried and taken to court [00:14:30] and out it and have your name in the newspaper. And, um, salt rubbed into your wound. Taxes demanded, um, and then told that you're still illegal. So, you know, it's a striking difference. Um, of course. You know, we have formal, um things. Um one of the things people are curious about is that relationship with IRD. Um, of course, we always had to pay tax. Even before the law changed, there was an expectation that no matter how you earned your income, you'd [00:15:00] have to pay tax, and the IRD was actually quite proactive and had developed special resources for sex workers and once told me that they were Amoral. Um, so, um, but also, we have relationships with, uh, Well, you know, with all due respect, actually, um, it used to be What is it called now? OK, it's the Department of Labour. [00:15:30] Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. And you know there's there. There is the theory that if you have problems, you can lift up the phone and the government official will come back for you. And that's that's a good thing to know, um, that, you know, there could be someone who would come in and sort you out and sort out the situation that you might find yourself. And And I don't wish to make light of that. Except I know that sometimes [00:16:00] it can be a bit frustrating for people because, you know, they have a problem. And they might be working for an exploitative boss, for instance, and they'll have a cluster of different issues, You know, it might be that a crime has been committed. You know, it might be that the boss is saying turn up to work or I'll find you or bond, you and, um while those practises have, um, and the main died away in certain parts of the sex industry, they are still being used by some [00:16:30] operators. Um, so you know, we have a relationship with Moby, and, you know, if your brothels cold, you can blow the whistle and say that a Department of Labour inspector might appear, Um, or if you're being made to work quite long hours and, um, and that that can happen for people and the independent contracting relationship you might like to chip [00:17:00] in there. So it in terms of picking which ways to enforce your rights and issues. It's always going to be a bit of a difficult way to decide how to go about it, because there are pros and cons, and you might have different rights depending on your situation. So if you're working as a employee, which I understand is most people's contracts, say independent contractor. But whether or not you are is a legal question, [00:17:30] and it's about how you're treated, not what it says on the contract. So it's very important to look at things like who's controlling the hours you're working? Who's paying your tax, Um, whether or not you're allowed to work for other people, Um, whether or not you're allowed to work in your own interest, who's providing equipment These are the sort of questions you're asking to determine whether or not you're an employee or an independent contractor. Now, if you're an employee, then [00:18:00] you can go through the Department of Labour or the employment relations process, which is completely free. It usually starts with, um, mediation. Um, if you're going through that formal process, or you can just talk to Community Law or any other lawyer and they can write you some letters, Um, but then there's mediation, which is free, and the Employment Relations Authority, which is set up so you don't need a lawyer as well. So it's quite a cheap process. Um, And then, on [00:18:30] the other hand, if you're an independent contractor, uh, the options available are generally the disputes tribunal or again, independent negotiation. So if you're going through the disputes tribunal, that's also quite a simple process. But you can only go through it if you got. If you're competing over a disputed amount less than 15,000 or 20,000 with agreement, Um, and that's that costs some money to go to. So if you're [00:19:00] disputing less than 1000 it costs you about 40 bucks, but it goes up to about 100 and 50 if you're going up to that $15,000 mark. And that is a that is a process where lawyers are banned. Um, unless you're actually having a dispute with a lawyer, so I could go, but I couldn't represent someone. And what happens there is it's usually we would be disputing about contracts. So if there's a breach of a contract and you're an independent contract that you're looking at, Hey, you said you would advertise [00:19:30] me. You said you'd book me clients and your receptionist as being a bitch and not doing that. Um, so that's where you go through that sort of dispute and you can get the lost income that you would have made if they filled our side of the contract. Um, yeah. So those are the If you're advocating for yourself If you're talking to a lawyer, those are the avenues of enforcement open to you. There is also things like enforcing health and safety standards. We can get health and safety inspectors and labour inspectors for minimum rights, [00:20:00] Um, which is through the Department of Labour. But I have found in my dealings with them that there's not enough of them, so it can be a bit difficult to get hold of them, I guess. Also, in terms of legalisation decriminalisation, um, it's also just to do with General, I don't know, general societal attitudes that basically sex workers no longer have to take shit from from the police, [00:20:30] uh, from bad clients. Um, And from you know, um, people harassing us in general, Um, because our work is no longer considered a crime. Um, so at a very, you know, kind of general level, um, you know, we can report, um, people who sexually violate us, um, as a crime. Um, we can, uh, report people who harass us on the telephone. Um, yeah, and just just things like that that, you know are really, really [00:21:00] fundamental basic things, um, in order to, you know, just kind of protect. You know, the basic humanity of, um, us, in terms of our working conditions has, I think really changed with the decriminalisation. It's, um, fascinating, because I've dealt with the police now for quite a long time. And, um, there's a whole, um, generation who have come into policing since decriminalisation and their eyes pop [00:21:30] a bit you know, and they get us on a roll to talk about the bad old days, and they in particular want to know which of their superiors posed as undercover clients to come into and trap us. And, um and it's it's it really is a AAA heartfelt difference. You sort of, um, have a sense that there has been a mood swing, but you know, equally, I think around sex worker rights. [00:22:00] Things kind of wax and wane. And we know now, um, right now that we're fighting yet again for the rights of street based sex workers, and I'm not sure if you're aware of this. But New Zealand first are gearing up to ride in with the controversy around sex work on the street. And a Lolo Taylor who's an MP for New Zealand first, is pushing a bill [00:22:30] in the front of the Parliament. Um, it's not in yet. It's not in the ballot box, but she's pushing a bill which will outlaw street based sex work and clients. There is another bill that's right in in the Parliament at the moment that's been discussed, and that's about zoning, sex workers and clients. And it has enormous potential to actually impact on everyone. Really? Who looks like they could be [00:23:00] a sex worker or looks like they could be a client. And it gives the police quite a lot of power. Now the police police, bless them, have written a submission opposing this bill. Um, they're not in favour of it. And zoning is on the surface of things. If you're an inner city resident and someone's, you know, keeping you awake at night, you you could almost hear yourself saying, Oh, for God's sake, can't you [00:23:30] go and work over there and not outside my window? Um, sex work generally isn't noisy. It's generally a very quiet activity. Uh, cars pull up, doors slam, people shout out to each other. Sometimes they shout abuse at street workers who bottles and things like that. Occasionally we have, you know, a a bit of an intersex worker strife happening loud voices, Um, but in the main, it's a pretty quiet [00:24:00] activity. And in the main, most people are quite well behaved. People wanna be kind of discreet, but, you know, it doesn't stop the feed, you know, the feed into the public perception and so that the bill that is proposing zoning has come out of Labour. Um, and the Auckland Council in particular, Monaco City Council. And then it morphed into Auckland Council and was sponsored [00:24:30] initially by Ross Robertson and is now being has been picked up by Sorry, I forget. Actually, I got a blank, Um, but anyway, it's it's chugged its way right through the select committee who have had oral submissions and written submissions. And so we're right in the moment now of having this about to go back to Parliament, and we're really hoping [00:25:00] that the select committee will come out and say, Look, there's no point in changing this legislation. Potentially, the legislation will result in fines of up to $2000 for sex workers and clients if they're found to be working outside of zones. So it'll give councils the power to demarcate zones and say, Look, you know, you can work over there or you can work there. [00:25:30] Now we know with Auckland Council that Lyn Brown has not been friendly towards sex workers, um, and that when he was mayor of man, he didn't allow for sex workers to work from home and and the well he, You know, his council, and he as well voted for a bylaw that said you couldn't work. Um, independently from home, that you had to work, Um, in a zoned area. Um, [00:26:00] that was nonresidential. Isn't that a little bit backwards in terms of the, you know, what are they trying to do? Is that sort of like saying that you you must work in a brothel that's a managed brothel? You can't work for yourself, rouge. That's because sex workers are still perceived as Children. And there's this kind of paternalistic, you know, like if only and the brothel operators spout that nonsense as well. Like, you know, all the girls, you know, they they all need, you know, they all need their nappies changed. [00:26:30] Can I just add a little bit on that? Um, the city bill, which is now the Auckland bill, was introduced as a what is called a local bill, which means that the local council or the like, ask the member of Parliament to put it in because of a group of of shopkeepers. So it's not labour policy. It's not national policy. It's not. It wasn't that a party policy thing. It was a local MP George Hawkins sort of saying, OK, you've come to me with this bill. [00:27:00] I'll put it up and that doesn't commit any MP to actually support it. You ask getting to select committee and within the select committee, there's a lot of opposition to it. Not a lot of the MP S, with their Labour national arrest are actually really embarrassed by it. I just hope it dies. But they're aware that the shopkeepers are really stigmatising sex workers taking a public campaign, doing really nasty telling lies to the media. Basically, um, so that it's It's something that's [00:27:30] there is an ongoing can, um and it's It's now Auckland City because of the Super city taking over what was previously a man, Bill does the MP that's asked to do that? Um, are they? Can they say No. If it's vexatious like if it's you wanting your tax wiped out or something like that, then they can, but in general practise a lot of them don't see that they've got a choice about it. I mean, like, the Green Party might be able to, because but it doesn't [00:28:00] have. It doesn't have elects. You see, that. That's the thing. If you're an electorate MP, then you almost got You have to have a strong legal reason to say no. And I'm not saying that that MP wasn't, um, stupid or whatever, but I'm just saying that it could have been any MP putting it up and still being embarrassed by it. Um, because that's the process, and it's it's very popular with a certain part of the population. Could the MP have declined, though? I mean, you know, could could he not [00:28:30] have? I don't think the rules in that particular area allowed for him to do it because it was a valid legal issue. You know, I just sort of say it. It might have been if it was an NZ first MP Labour National. Um, their rules are such that they have to take account of it Green, I'm pretty sure wouldn't because the rules allow for different processes. But I'm just, you know, So I'm just sort of saying OK, I identify. I'm a member of Labour. I don't like everything about it, but it's not labour policy to do that [00:29:00] the same way I know it's not the policy of some other parties just to balance the books here. It was a labour MP, Um, and Tim Barnett, who worked, uh, and still works, um, is is very keen on supporting sex worker rights. And he sponsored the private members bill through for us, which, um, was supported across different parties, but, um, New Zealand first, who voted against a wholesale and United future? [00:29:30] I think from memory, actually, um, at the time. Although Peter Dunn is against this bill, which, um, was his progressive. Mm. Um, I'd like to ask you one more question, and then maybe we can ask. See if anyone else has any questions. Um, so there is so generally sex workers are not in favour of enforced sexual health checkups. Um, any [00:30:00] ideas about why? Oh, everyone's looking at me. Um well, I can talk about why I personally am against enforced health checkups, Um, for, uh, for sex workers. And, um, the first reason is because most sex workers are the most savvy people about sexual health you'll ever meet. Um, we understand how to correct. By and large, as a demographic, we understand [00:30:30] how to correctly use condoms, which I don't think necessarily. Um applies to everyone. Um, we, um U use dental dams. Um, as a matter of course, in our work generally, Um, yeah. So I think there's the first thing is that sex workers tend to be pretty proactive about their own health anyway, because, um, it's just as unpleasant for a sex worker to have a sexually transmitted infection than it is for a client or anyone else to have a sexually transmitted infection. [00:31:00] Um, and I guess it's just a stigmatisation that sex workers as a demographic are more likely to practise unsafe sex, which isn't true. Um, and the idea that we have no autonomy to choose when we have medical procedures done to us. Um, you know, I personally, um, have sexual health checks every three months. But if there was a reason that, um, I couldn't because, um, for a psychological or mental [00:31:30] health reason or just a time and finance reason, um, I wouldn't want that to stop me from my ability to pay my rent for the next two weeks until I can get that appointment or whatever. And so that's why I think most sex workers are against it. I think, um, part of the difference between legalisation and decriminalisation. These are complicated terms, and they're quite different if you get into the drug debate. [00:32:00] Um, I think they turn around. But decriminalisation in terms of sex work laws indicates that all laws that are out there for anyone in the workforce apply to sex workers. So there are no, you know there's not. A pure decriminalisation means there wouldn't be special law that's applied simply to sex workers. So when we looked at the issue around mandatory testing, of course, like Vita says, [00:32:30] we were absolutely opposed to to that idea under a legalised sex industry. In some places, um Melbourne, for instance, and in Australia is a is a legalised sex industry, which, um, has a fairly tightly controlled regime of mandatory test. So sex workers have to test. I think it's once a month and really, um, outrageous, actually, that this [00:33:00] this kind of notion that let's deliver a clean kind of, um, population of sex workers, whereas the clients, of course, aren't compelled to test. Nor would we want them to be compelled. And, you know, part of the New Zealand rationale around public health is that the only thing that can make a difference is safer sex. And so we've put the emphasis on safer sex practises. Um, [00:33:30] we're not in favour. Actually, there's a little bit in our legislation that talks about sex workers and clients and brothel operators must take all reasonable steps to practise safer sex. There's a penalty attached to that. Now, that's a politician's handy work. Um, we weren't in favour of that at all. And because, you know, like, the idea is if you stop if [00:34:00] you have unprotected sex, um, you you want to be able to say, Hey, look, I did stuff up, you know? You don't want to think Oh my gosh, there's a barrier here. There's a legal barrier I can't, um, disclose in case somebody's, you know, the long arm of the law is going to arrest us, and the phone is like a lot right. It's like 1000 bucks. Um, so, yeah, that's kind of significant. And it it it's But you know, having said that, sex workers do tell [00:34:30] us constantly that they often use that sign, which is, you know, it's a little sign, and it's it's targeting clients. It says Information for clients as a mechanism to remind them that they they shouldn't stuff around with unprotected sex. But as we said, you know, like sex workers are fantastic and negotiating skills. Uh, second to none, really. In terms of getting those condoms and other, um, things going, [00:35:00] Um, So, um, does anyone have any questions? Maybe they could put their hands up if you want to ask something. Sex workers are often assumed to be victims of trafficking, and I know that NZ PC recently published a report on Margaret Sex Workers in New Zealand. Can you tell us a bit about your findings? Sure. And on Monday night, I think, um, Monday or sometime next week there will probably [00:35:30] be something on Campbell Live about the study because TV three is going to interview Winston, who's come out with some quite outrageous things about Asian sex workers. And, um, and they're going to pitch the evidence that's come from the study there as well. Um, we interviewed surveyed 100 and 30 sex workers who were migrant sex workers, and, um, we we were keen to have [00:36:00] a look at the conditions, and you cannot come to this country and be a sex worker, so you can't set it off from any country in the world apart from Australia with the idea that you'll come and work here, be it on holiday or what? Or supplement student earnings or anything, Um, and become a sex worker, which is slightly outrageous. So we, um that's also in the prostitution reform act. Um, but when we when we surveyed the migrant sex workers, [00:36:30] we did find that a number of them were here for different reasons. Some were tourists, um, travelling through, Uh um, some were students, and, um so the situation is somewhat precarious. You know, they they we have a fairly proactive immigration department which is out there looking earnestly for victims of trafficking. And because [00:37:00] the dynamic is that America once a year writes a report, it's the trafficking in persons report, and they write a report and they give every country around the world, I think a AAA mark, and, um, they put you as a tier, whether you're a tier one, tier two or tier three country and write a report card and time and again they do not like, um, you know, they make reference to New Zealand's, um, liberal law. Um, if [00:37:30] you are under the age of 18, the American definition of trafficking is that the society traffics you. So regardless, um, you know of your own autonomy as a 17 year old, for instance, um, the society has trafficked you, So you become a statistic. You become a traffic victim. So they capture the the impressions that NGO S have who are working [00:38:00] with young people under that age in New Zealand. And they do find that there are sex workers who are under the age of 18. And there are sex workers who are under the age of 18, not huge numbers, but significant. You know enough to have men in this trafficking in persons report. So they're considering all sex workers who are under 18 to be trafficked. Yeah, that's the definition. It's not the definition we have in this country. Um, but it is. Certainly there are [00:38:30] people here who would like to change that definition, and but however you know, like there's There are also people who are working on the anti trafficking issue who say that the word trafficking is such a catch all it's such a misnomer. it's not really getting to the issue of exploitation. And I mean, we are very concerned about the situation migrant sex workers find themselves in. And some of the findings Um, yeah, they're vulnerable to exploitation and [00:39:00] so on. But we haven't found evidence of trafficking in that. In that survey, we did find a person who said that they didn't have access to their passport, which would be a really worrying. Um, you know, that's a really worrying indicator of, um, something's not not right, And we have dealt with migrant sex. Workers who have had money withheld who have been really upset have had significant amounts of money withheld. Um, [00:39:30] and they couldn't go to the law about it because it's not legal for them to um, yeah, that's right. I mean, it's it's a It's a bit of a frustration. One of them, uh, one of the people we dealt with, you know, she said, Well, look, you know, I don't I don't mind. I'm leaving anyway, and I don't want to come back, and I'm prepared to speak. So you know, that kind of situation is really, really helpful, and it's quite a I mean, getting money withheld is something that happens to like a lot of managed sex workers. Hey, so if [00:40:00] it wasn't so illegal for them to do their jobs, then it would be a lot easier for them to go to the to get something done about that. Um, so I can't talk specifically about migrant workers in the sex industry, but I can talk more generally about the problem of very narrow visas on enforcing workers' rights. So it's quite a common problem for us, uh, in my experience, for people to be working to slightly breach their conditions and for their employer to hold that over their head and use it to threaten them [00:40:30] into receiving less than minimum wage to working too many hours, not being paid overtime. And I currently have two clients who have been, um, that I'm taking cases for who have been earning less than minimum wage working in kitchens. And the threat is I'll stop supporting your visa. You've worked too many hours on a student visa. If you go to anyone about this, they're not gonna help. They're gonna kick you out of the country. Um, and that is always a risk. Um But there are also [00:41:00] organisations that will help a little bit because employing someone who's not allowed to work in the country or in that particular industry is also an offence under the immigration Act. So there is comeback against that. If you can get someone to stand up and yell it at them, Um but But it's it's It's a big problem in Auckland, not in the sex industry but in the hospitality industry. And there's a number of cases and investigations have gone on, um for and fast food [00:41:30] and sort of ethnic restaurants and the rest where people are working illegally because they come over on student visas or the like, and one of the the the main things is it is immigration policy to send a person working illegally back to their country of origin, even if they also prosecute the employer. And most employees know that, and they don't complain because they know they'll get sent back. But there is also an important thing to note is that the deportation process actually takes a really long [00:42:00] time and there is also a time limit for appeals. So if anyone's worried they're going to be kicked out of the country tomorrow, it's highly unlikely. And if you ever need the support of an immigration lawyer, we have free immigration lawyers. So we had, um, another couple of questions. One more. Yeah. So I was just wondering because I I was 13 when, um, sex work was decriminalised. So I was wondering if you could tell me a bit about the history of how decriminalisation happened. Like what [00:42:30] sort of set that debate off? So we were mad, and we were pissed, fed up, was being arrested, you know, it was our work. It it felt normal to us so that, you know, it was a long winded push for change. And I think we were inspired by homosexual law reform. Well, I know we were, um, in in the mid eighties, and the times were quite rich, you know, like [00:43:00] HIV was around and there was a lot of activism, um, people living with HIV and you know, So there was a big, um, kind of social change that was on on, you know, happening. Um, needle exchanges were were, um, being developed and sponsored by the government. So there was kind of a liberal air and, um, we were inspired by, uh you know, other organisations in Australia. And of course, you know, I mentioned [00:43:30] the English and the French and, um also the Canadian sex workers. Um so you know the language for sex work? Um was just really developing Carol Lee Scarlet Harlot. Some of you may know her, um, in San Francisco, Um coined. She said, Oh, I invented sex work. And of course, we just called ourselves the prostitutes collective because that's what you did. You know, it's what other organisations did. And, um, now, um, [00:44:00] it's kind of funny. I remember being in Kolkata with the Sex Worker Rights organisation there a few years back, and they looked at me like I was the the devil, you know, because I had the word prostitute has got its own stigma now, and the wrong crowd used words like prostitute and prostitution and the right crowd talk about sex work and sex workers. And, um, anyway, um, but, you know, we we stare down stigma, I guess, [00:44:30] with this word, um, prostitute. So I think what kicked it off was concern. You know, we wanted our rights, and it was a slow thing, Really? I mean, it just didn't you know, somebody say will say, What was your strategy? We didn't know how to spell strategy. Sometimes we were so tired. Just, you know, we were just doing what felt obvious. We met. Um, MP S. We, um, were promised [00:45:00] to criminalization by Maurice Williamson, who is still in power. Actually, he was the associate minister of health, Um, and made a spectacular speech around marriage. Equality, um, which took him to, um, fame, international fame. But in our day, he he he said, I always remember him saying, Oh, Catherine, by Christmas, we'll have it decriminalised and he you know, we scripted Morris to say things like, um, it's a law [00:45:30] made by, um, by men for men against women. And so he you know, he would say all these wonderful things. And, um, that was back in the early nineties. Um, so just just, you know, it got serious. We had to wait. You have to wait until we've got political time, you know, the right time sort of thing. And we had a Christian coalition at one point. Graham Lee, [00:46:00] um, sitting in power and holding a balance of power. And we You know, that wasn't the right time to put in a private members bill. The government didn't put in the bill. That was an MP. He put it in. And, um, Tim Barnett and I had met as board members on the AIDS Foundation, and he had a a real empathy for our issue. And we scrapped our way all the way through, um, with Tim about, you know, what would go into the law. And, um, we we built [00:46:30] up a whole sort of coalition of support with women's groups. Um, the YWC a the National Council on Women. Um, Business and Professional Women's Federation. We're the first organisation to stand up, um, and you know, mainstream organisation and say we support a change to the prostitution laws. Um, so, uh, the Maori Women's Welfare League came on board the public health. Uh, groups were there, [00:47:00] um, on the you know, the back back, you know, as as concerned about safer sex and so on. It takes time, you know, and, um, to to to get people on board and keep them on board. But it just seemed to happen. It took about 15 years before we got to that vote in parliament, and we just got through by, um, by one politician actually abstaining, [00:47:30] and and Helen Clark's government, which, um, was fantastic. Another question. OK, uh, my question is about, um, sex workers who are working in managed brothels. Um that are, I suppose, either employees or contractors. And I noticed that what I perceive one of the biggest problems, um, is that when someone is applying [00:48:00] for a job and not necessarily in the sex industry, it's also really similar in the film industry. Um, that when you're a contractor, it's a real take it or leave it situation. You know, um, we we only want you to work for us. If you're going to do X number of hours, you're going to do night shifts. You're gonna, you know, do this. And this is the set pay rate. And it's very difficult to negotiate because there's like, if you don't like these terms, then you know, piss off. Um, so, yeah, film industry and sex industry huge parallels there and [00:48:30] what my question is, and it's, um although it's a contract issue, it's to the whole panel. It's What do you think um, sex workers can do to combat that or what? What has been what has been tried? Um, and I suppose that's, um, New Zealand and, um, overseas. I don't know. Yeah, because I just see that as a huge problem. So what? What you should do? What is happening? I think, um, that, uh, it's part of the wider societal perception, [00:49:00] um, maintained by brothel and agency operators that sex workers, somehow unskilled work. And if you're not prepared to work to these conditions, well, there'll be some other person who will be, Um, But, um, the more that we kind of get together and organise together, we realise that that's not true. Um, And that, uh, yeah, sex workers. Um, skilled work. Um, it's intellectually challenging. Surprisingly, um, it's It can be emotionally difficult. [00:49:30] It can be emotionally rewarding. It can be physically, physically quite strenuous. But, um, it's it's definitely, you know, I've done lots of jobs, skilled and unskilled jobs, whatever that means. And sex work is definitely a skilled job. So the more that sex workers come together and, you know, um, value their profession as a profession. I think we can, you know, negotiate with operators through the change of attitudes. I sometimes, [00:50:00] um, think about that word profession because it's used to demarcate. And I You know, when I meet to people meet people and they say I couldn't do you know, this is when I was a worker. I couldn't do what you do. And I say, yes, you could, because it's almost a nick moment like, Oh, I couldn't do what you do. And I always remind people that of course, they could, um, be a sex worker. But the, um [00:50:30] yeah, the whole issue. I've I've seen some really great sides, and I'm usually sworn to secrecy about them. And, um, I've seen some good things happen where, you know, we've had mediation. Um, we've had victories around sexual harassment. Um, and the idea that a sex worker could take a brothel operator on around sexual harassment. Um, and one, you know that that is just it [00:51:00] makes me think, God, if nothing else works, that's fantastic. And, um, I remember, um, after that particular victory which went through a mediation, um, scenario that I was born to secrecy and I was heading off to something called the Oxford Union debate and I slipped it into the debate. Um, which I keep meaning to put up on YouTube. Um, we have, [00:51:30] you know, relationships with people you know who are operating brothels and that point around negotiation. You know, when you're standing there as a new sex worker and about to start, you know, they're dead keen to hire you. And they can, as you say, put, you know, dump all that stuff on you and you'll do this. You will do that. And we like to talk to new workers before they start and get them to have their lines. Um, you know about Well, I you know, I'm studying, [00:52:00] so I can't work until three. In the morning, but I can work until 11. No, I'm unable to do three shifts because they always dump. You know this on you like if you want to work here, you've got to do three shifts in the same breath. A lot of the operators say things like we can't get enough people to work for us. And so I use that as a moment with them to say, You know, you need to loosen up a bit, but, um, the the disputes too. You know, those penalties that they attach? [00:52:30] I mean, when sex workers bring some of their contracts and and you see these sorts of things attached, they say, don't worry, they're illegal, they're illegal. And you'll win in a dispute hearing you you will win. Um, I can almost confidently say that, um, because we've seen enough of these quite little disputes, you know, go down with, um, people telling the story about how their money has been withheld or whatever. [00:53:00] And sometimes people worry that if they, um that if they come out about their boss withholding money or trying to pressure them into doing something, they don't want to do that, that's gonna go through court, and it's going to be public. But that's not the case, is it? Um, So if you're going through the dispute tribunal, your name is not going to be in any public records. And if you're going through the employment mediation process, your name is also not going to be in any records. They're both completely private, and you can reach confidential settlements in both. [00:53:30] Um, but I think another problem with just contract negotiation is not knowing what terms are normal and what is not normal. And I think it's interesting that you make a comparison with the film industry where they say that the contract is king and it doesn't matter what how you're treated, even if you're treated like an employee. Um, so I've heard that one term that is often put in there is a restraint of trade where [00:54:00] you work for us. Then you can't work for anyone else for like, three months, which is not going to be enforceable. And like it is. The onus is on the people benefiting from that restraint of trade to show it's reasonable and not just about reducing competition in the industry. Um, which is gonna be able to prove that like you have to be a manager to get a three month, um, restraint of trade, like a manager who knows strategy about how you're going to be advertising for the entire three months. [00:54:30] And it's privileged knowledge and no one else knows it. I mean, the standard is high. Um, so we had another question. Um, yeah. At the Women's Studies Association conference earlier this year, there was a presentation on violence against, um, sex workers. And this was done in Christchurch, which found the majority of harassment attacks. And the rest was not from clients, not from police. It was from bystanders and people going past, you know, like groups of [00:55:00] of young men and women in cars, throwing bottles at sex workers and the like. A. Is this a countrywide thing? And B. It seems to be a stigma based sort of thing. And is there anything that can you know happen about it? Well, that kind of thing has always been it's it's part of if if if If you're a street worker, that thing is part of a part of [00:55:30] the street. If you stand out there, people are going to and they do. They throw things, they throw bottles, they throw rotten eggs, they throw everything at. And, um, there's nothing really you can do because, you know, by the time you see a place when they're gone, you know, they just go past and you know, and that's that's probably that's probably the worst thing about working on the street is that kind of [00:56:00] that kind of thing. So working against kind of social stigma is maybe the one of the main kind of Yeah, I. I think it could be. You know, it is a societal thing, and I think, a solution to raise awareness about it. Um, maybe in the hate crime, um, consciousness, you know, like I know. Um um I think it's Liverpool [00:56:30] and the the the police have worked closely with the sex workers and they've developed, you know, they've said OK, if you assault a sex worker, we're going to treat it like a hate crime. And I really think that needs to happen because, you know, just to hear Chanel describe that it's kind of like this is this is what normally happens. And so we have to [00:57:00] work against that. And I think things that people say about sex workers, you know, the, um, statements are really archaic, you know, just horrific kinds of things. I mean, I, I think one of the headlines around the time the law changed was that we were the cancer of society, that that was the headline cancer of society and, um, just just dreadful [00:57:30] kinds of statements that you wouldn't get away with saying about any other group. I wouldn't think I can't think you know, and I do think about these things. So I think until we get something that acknowledges you can't discriminate against sex workers, um, attached somewhere to some legislation, and I think the way to do that would be to put it into occupation. Generic. Um, you know, you cannot [00:58:00] discriminate against the potential flatmate who is a police officer or a tax collector and say, Oh, I don't want to flat with you. I'm a bit dodgy. Um, I think we need that kind of solution. So and people do, um, people do hold those attitudes all the time. I remember about a month after I started working, I was having my first Brazilian wax [00:58:30] ever. Um, because, you know, that's part of, um, a a an acidic standard in the industry. And, as you know, a woman was pouring hot wax on my pubic area. She starts telling me about how her friend F, flattered with a prostitute and how terrible that was and how she didn't want to live with these kind of people. And I was sitting there like, Oh, my God, like I'm having work on myself, um, by this woman. And she kept going on about? She didn't want that kind of behaviour in her home and didn't. I think it was terrible. [00:59:00] And I was like, What do I What do I even say? So those attitudes are, you know, the fact that someone would tell you that while you were in, you know, that kind of vulnerable position goes to show that those attitudes are really widespread really prevalent, really normalised, and that you're just expected to agree with them. Are there any other? Um, uh I think my question is gonna be a two part question. And I'm not gonna be very articulate [00:59:30] because I'm trying to I'm still formulating my head, but I didn't want to miss the opportunity to ask. So it's about race, um, and racial inequalities in sex work. How does that manifest? And how are they addressed collectively within the sex workers? Um, industry, That's the first part. Uh, the second part is racial stereotypes. So, [01:00:00] um, there's a lot of racial stereotypes. Um, and, um, a lot of that has been manifested in the media and all that stuff. And are those stereotypes, um, a form of currency, um, and a form of value that's added into sex work, personalities and profiles. And so how? How how do sex workers, uh, engage in challenging those stereotypes as part of wider efforts in challenging [01:00:30] those stereotypes? Cool. Um, very good questions. I'm just gonna leave them because I'm older and I will. I'll forget your questions, Um, and then I'll defer. But just, um we have a network of sex work projects, which is international. And, um and you know, one of the fantastic things has been that sex workers are all brought together and rub up against each other and so on, and [01:01:00] because there is always a tendency to speak for the other and, um, in particular, you know, like you, you hear people say, Oh, yes, it's OK for you because you're ABC. But what about them lot over there? And you know, typically it's Southeast Asia or somewhere. Um, you know, it's sex work for them. It can never be a choice. And it's a bit hard when you're confronted with power from Thailand or the so Um [01:01:30] organisation from Kolkata or from South um southern India, who are saying sex worker rights are human rights and, um, and and and Thailand. You know, the sex worker organisation, Uh, talks about talk to us about worker rights. Don't talk to us about sewing machines. Um, at NZ PC on Wall Street, we get people who come in and [01:02:00] they'll tell us these nauseating stories about wanting to go to help prostitutes in Cambodia. And could we help them, Um, put them in touch with some and, um oh, my, my, my answer. Um oh, God. I. I just nearly lose it, you know? And we have a collection of t-shirts, um, that we have on our, um we have this frame at we've [01:02:30] got international t-shirts from all around the world and six work organisations And, you know, the the, um, sex workers from the Asian Pacific Network of six week projects, Um, which is out of Thailand and we belong to that network, you know, has, um, the one that looks like McDonald's stars. And it's done right across the golden arches, And I say, Well, this is made by the sex workers in Thailand. [01:03:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, it's that it It's not to to say that there isn't a heck of an imbalance, you know, in terms of economies and in terms of how people arrive in sex work, um, you know, et cetera and context of choice and so on. But all of that. Yeah. How do we combat racism? Um, it's, you know, like, and we [01:03:30] say, Look, don't speak about sex workers in other countries. Unless you you know, you know what you're on about. Um, let them speak for themselves, you know, as they can. Um, but the you might vote, I think. Also, um, you really hit the nail on the head when you were talking about kind of, um, races, cultural currency, that when you are in a sex work transaction, you are It's not like a normal sex [01:04:00] transaction, right? You were already, um, fulfilling a sort of a performative role in terms of your gender identity or your gender. And so I think race comes into that and that, you know, all most of the sex workers of colour who I've met, Um, and obviously, I'm not one, but, um, they play on, you know, they perform, you know, often quite ugly racial stereotypes. Um, but, you know, if they can use that to get money, um, to make money. It's [01:04:30] not really any different from, you know, using your race as cultural currency and any other kind of job where you're, um, looks or you you You look a certain way you're performing a certain way, and I'm sure it's very problematic for a lot of those people. But, um, I think that they tend to just kind of have a sense of humour about it, and, you know, um, see it as another performative aspect of their job. In a lot of cases, I've definitely [01:05:00] been a dusky made. That was lulls. Um, so there was another Christian? Yes. Um, um, it was really like to hear all your stories that I've never had the opportunity to, um, learn about sex work. And, um well, my question is that, like, um, I work in the organisation, and, um, it's [01:05:30] I have a lot of respect for marriage and things like that. Like if anyone wishes to be married, Um, that's fine. You know, um, I believe that you married before love, blah, blah, blah. But, um, what I think in many cultures many, um, different cultures. It's used as a, um, way to as an excuse to exploit women. So, um, a lot of a lot of people have told me that marriage is a legalised form of prostitution Where, um, you know, like we have some [01:06:00] cultural stuff about marriage, like diary. Like buying a woman or the woman has to pay the, um in laws money. Um, because she's such a burden because of agenda, like it's just a form of transaction. And, um, men using women for getting citizenship. Um, um, this is not marriage. It's It's a you know, it's like a transaction. It's a business transaction, and it's been going on for centuries. And, um, sex [01:06:30] work. I mean, I think, um, there there's, um, in my and stuff like, you know, like there's they were regarded as artists and, you know, they they they know how the art of art of seduction. And, um, you know, it's a It's a profession, I believe, because it's it's a lot, a lot of work and the people who go to sex workers. There's a lot of things only professionals can do, like the desire can be met because the sex worker professionally knows what how to satisfy [01:07:00] the needs of the customers um, so I understand that bit, but what do you think about marriage as a form of legalised prostitution? Um, could I just quickly say, Look, you know, when I talk to new sex workers, I say Now, I don't undermine the state of the nation here, Um, Lisa's best and the idea that sex workers can do all these wonderful headstands bollocks, sex workers, [01:07:30] you know, they do not want to be working too hard. And I believe probably in the marital bed, that sex is far more proactively, you know, inventive, inventive or whatever, but, um, no, Um, and I think that's an important discussion because, I mean, sometimes you do hear it said in sex work discussions, you know, like, oh, we do what the wives don't do. And I I think that's a load of bollocks. [01:08:00] Um, too, You know, you you do as little as you can get away with, generally just and the quickest amount of time. I mean, um, but marriage and and sex work, it's it's a difficult one. And of course, people forget, too, that sex workers are often married and have, you know, multi tiered relationships to, um, manage. [01:08:30] Um but we did have a t-shirt. I think it must have been Mark, was it who said or somebody, Um, prostitution as a rental of the body and marriage is a sale. Somebody said it wasn't original, but we had it hanging in our community base for ages. But in saying that when the client pays you, they're not they're not paying you for general use of your body specific things that you negotiate of what you want to provide, and you don't do anything you don't [01:09:00] want to do. And, um, and the law totally backs you on. Yeah, if you want to say if I do this for this amount of money and I do not do this under any circumstances, you can say that. And, yeah, some other great said, um, if every woman charged every man and I'm sorry, it's it's a little bit heteros. If every woman charged every man the balance of power would shift overnight. That came out of a Canadian rights sex worker activist. [01:09:30] And so we had a couple more questions. Questions might turn out to be two fold, see where it goes. But the popularisation of the Internet and, uh, especially in the UK. There have been quite a lot of websites coming out with things which are essential to review where punters, you know, put up, um, you know, the the price they paid and what they thought the experience was like and everything. Um, there have been quite a number [01:10:00] of projects which have come out of that, and they served to really highlight some more very degrading, terrifying and downright dehumanising clients like punters, what they called plants that come along and, you know, pay for these services and then write these horrific reviews about these poor people. Um and I. I feel that that's really ingrained in the kind of notion that they're paying for the person [01:10:30] and not the act itself. And perhaps there's a bit aeroplane, you know, male privilege thrown in there a little bit. And so I. I suppose what I'm trying to get out here is how do you all think that we should go about perhaps changing people's opinions about how to consume sex in a business setting, like whether it be through legislation or education that can I just quickly it sounds, you know, [01:11:00] like the client thing. I I often wonder about that if it's kind of an internalised sort of homophobia kind of thing, you know, like misogyny unleashed and some of those dreadful forum for, uh, you know, and I can't. Can't, um I don't know what happens. I know. No, I can't bear those forum forum. Can I talk to someone who participates? Um, I use, um uh, New Zealand [01:11:30] Punters forum. Um, for advertising. My brand. Um, and by and large, in New Zealand, the way that sex workers are discussed is real within the realms of what is, um, a commercial? Um, sex transaction is relatively respectful. I mean, obviously, there will be comments about a sex worker's body. Um, and, uh, certain acts that a sex worker engaged in, um, but they generally tend to in New Zealand. Tend to be [01:12:00] the tone is you know, um no, Certainly no more degrading than what you'd find on your average dine out dot co dot NZ review. Um and, you know, I think that, um, the community is quite self policing in terms of maintaining, like a fairly, um, a fairly grown up tone. Um, I think that, um, like Catherine said, um a lot of men who, in my experience, a lot of men who see sex workers resent the fact [01:12:30] that they paid for it. And they have, like, you know, a kind of a weird psychological thing about they do it. But they don't like the fact that they do it. And they often plays out and, you know, physical violence against sex workers and also and disgusting things that they write about us on the Internet. Um, in terms of what you can do about that, um, the answer is probably very little, Um because really, as a sex worker, you have to acknowledge that you are playing into you. You are performing quite a bit of [01:13:00] role. Um, you know, I certainly don't talk to my clients about my politics or, you know, um, my real job or my boyfriend or any other aspects of my real life. Um, you know, my sex with persona is, you know, an aspect of me, but is not me. Um, you know, and you're not having sex with vita. You're having sex with my hooker persona. Um, yeah, And what a nightmare it is when they try and talk politics with you. Oh, [01:13:30] just come out. What are you saying? It's great, co. It doesn't let bad luck here. Uh, so, uh, my, um I just had a question about, um the the current potential law change, And I was wondering what, uh how can people get involved? Um, what plans are there to to fight those laws? [01:14:00] We had a, um, select committee meeting on Thursday, and I can talk about, um you know that I can't talk. Actually, I, um But I can say that there is a, you know, a plan unfolding at this point, and hopefully that will come to light. But, um, all of those the the people invited to [01:14:30] the select committee, um, were from all you know, the police, us and the community boards, um, from the council. And of course, you know, you had the the politicians. So, um, we have some homework to do, and we're doing it, and we hope that, you know, ultimately the legislation won't go back to the house. Um, but what could you do in the meantime, I guess I mean, it's it's a difficult call, because I, I think that [01:15:00] you know, if we whip it up with the MP S or if we, you know, lobby. And I think we're probably in a a point at the moment where we're just in a holding position. But if it does go back to the House, then it would be a case to start writing to MP S any MP S Um [01:15:30] um, so can you call on as well, just so she doesn't get, um, I just wanted to talk about the use of what clients say about sex workers, because I think it's been something that's getting a lot of attention recently because it's been a legal court, Um, promote the model, the idea that we should criminalise clients as opposed to sex workers, and I was hoping at the minute that you're about to talk about that, that's a terrible idea. But, um, I think [01:16:00] the thing with sites like Punch and other sites like that is also that they not need for workers to read. They mean showing off to each other about what they think they can get away with with sex workers and stuff. And a lot of it is actually completely not true. As someone who has interacted with clients and it's written about me. It's very frequently, absolutely in a relationship with what actually happened is trying to portray themselves as successful men and desirable men. You know, they talk [01:16:30] about how they've given you 15 orgasms and a half hours. I like my It's not true. It's about showing up. And I think it's more of the way that men sorry, it is a bit of a generalisation. But the way that men act on the Internet than it is about specifically yeah, yeah, exactly, and showing up to the other men and talking to about what the great men they are. And [01:17:00] you know, because people have this fantasy of being able to be the man who gives the look of the orgasm because, obviously, um, because it's work we're not actually enjoying sex most of the time is the perception. And so people are want to believe that they're the one who can break through that barrier and experience the review. But, um, like I said, there's been a lot of attention on the subject recently, and I think it's because there's been pushes in Scotland in particular at the moment, to criminalise [01:17:30] clients and adopt the Swedish model. And, yeah, it's spreading like a disease in the Swedish disease. We call it, and it's, um it's really funny, because Sweden, you know, you'd think of Sweden as being a liberal liberal country. Well, in respect to sex workers, it's, um, got this parallel kind of criminalization thing going on. So while sex workers can't be prosecuted, their clients can. And it it's just the, um it's called [01:18:00] the sex purchase. Um, anyway, in Sweden, in Sweden, if you're a client, um, you cannot pay for sex. Of course you can. Sex clients continue to do so, but they can be arrested. And that makes sex workers lives very difficult. And other countries have picked this legislation up, and worryingly, it's being pushed in the UK. Now, um, it's been pushed in Ireland specifically, um, [01:18:30] at the moment, too. In Scotland, which has always been very had a very strong sex worker rights movement. So that's really, really scary. And, um, the I was talking to the English collective the other night and, you know, they they're always having to fight off these madcap ideas over there. And so we're really worried that if it goes through in Scotland. It will be seen as a kind of Western norm. You know, Sweden is very exotic, but it's northern Europe [01:19:00] and, um, countries that have a cultural kind of relationship to New Zealand, etcetera. So, yeah, it's one to be watched. Um, it never flew here. So we're slightly relieved by the fact that if you pay a sex worker under the age of 18 in this country, you can be prosecuted. Um, I always remember the discussions we had with the women's organisations [01:19:30] about sex work. Um, and what to do about the clients situation and sex workers who are under the age of 18. And I think the woman from the Business and Professional Women's Federation argued with the woman from the YWC a and said, Oh, great. So 16 year olds are allowed to practise, but they can't get paid for it until they're 18. But, um, seriously, I think the, um the whole sort of, you know, the the pendulum [01:20:00] is swinging, um, back against sex worker rights. You know, we felt we'd made huge gains, and now it seems to be swinging back. Hi. Um, I just have a sort of whimsical speculative question about, um, utopian sex work, I guess. Like after whatever revolution that might happen. Or like after we abolish capitalism or after, [01:20:30] You know, like, I think that in a lot of people's utopian visions, like we haven't really worked out sex would be transacted, you know? Or whether whether whether it would all just be like communes and happiness and friends or whether there would be I don't know. Do you have any thoughts about that? Um, after the revolution, I'm gonna be living in a polyamorous commune and I'll be too busy fucking all my lovers. Time to work. Um, so that's that's [01:21:00] my perspective. In an ideal world, maybe there will be no more. Maybe there'll be no more, Um, work. Yeah, but interestingly, you didn't mention the word choice, which I hate. Which I thank you for, because often that word choice is used a lot in the context of sex. We Oh, yes, but, you know, choosing this profession. Um, and you hear it. So [01:21:30] So. But, uh, thank you for not using the word choice. No, I think I mean, I think that's the thing Is that you know, all work is um is coerced to some extent. Um, you know, like, I would really like to just get stoned with my cat and watch videos all day. But, you know, we've got to pay rent and stuff. Um, unfortunately, um, and so, Yeah, um, the choices. I mean, there's different levels of choice and collusion, [01:22:00] but it's all it's all a continuum. So thinking about sex work as profession, and I was kind of wondering what the relative advantages and disadvantages would be of having like a formalised training system like you get a diploma in sex work or something. It pretty much happens in agencies. [01:22:30] Um, that, you know, um, you would think again that it's instinctive. Um, that actually, going into my first job, I had no idea what I was doing. Um, and sex, you know, sex workers tend to learn from other sex workers to have you actually run a job. Um, because no one else really explains it to you, Catherine. And she might be able to. The clients are well trained and, you know, like, if [01:23:00] sex, you know, sex workers are a body of, you know, the huge numbers out there, and they're training the clients, and so you can sort of pick up in interesting things from clients how it's how our session is meant to go. And so it's kind of a mirror image of what sex workers would normally do, comes back. So the whole sort of induction into sex work I am opposed to the professionalisation and the idea of certification. I guess [01:23:30] I find it snobby and elitist. And, um, I'm a deconstructionist by nature, I think. And I, I would like to think all of you go out of here right now and solicit the car yard across the road and you all make a buck and you can do that with minimal skills. But I also hear what Peter says says that there is a lot of skill that comes along as you go along. Um, in the course of sex work that you attach, you know to yourself. And it [01:24:00] isn't, um, without skills and, you know, and you apply it to other aspects of your life. Yeah, they they're quite general skills, like I can't like, put a condom on with one finger while you know, doing something else. General skills like it teaches you to be very good at, like, negotiating, negotiating tricky situations. I like being able to say no in ways that aren't like fuck off. Like you have to be able to say, I don't know if we know each other well enough for that. You know, [01:24:30] it teaches you to be able to say no in a whole variety of different ways. And, um and kind of also kind of teaches. You could, um, transactional, you know, like sometimes I think, um, so you're in a sexy situation. The client wants to believe that they are there, that you're there because you've got all the money in the world and you just don't get enough sex, and, um and so they want to think they they want to forget that they're paying. So, [01:25:00] you know, you learn to do all that quote, um, skillfully or something has to be like, Well, when you're working, you have to be a bit of an actress as well, you know, because with clients, it's a lot about it's about fantasy. But, um, when you're like, if you're in the street, you learn from other girls. When it comes to clients, every client wants something different, and it may not be something that you want to do. [01:25:30] Ah, but that's when I would say do to the clients. Don't let them do to you. You know, this isn't about me. This is about you, you know, like all of the ways that you can get of hell. No, This is this is about me touching you. That's it. With this sort of current, I guess. Yeah, like pendulum shift against, um, sex worker rights, particularly with the, um, submissions that are coming [01:26:00] through. How is it that people can become allies in support of sex workers? Like, what would be the best way to go about that? Would it be engaging in the dialogue through social media and expelling this when we see it a challenging thing? Is it writing submissions? Is it punching me brown in the face? I would love to. We desperately need Auckland to get on social medias and flog it. Actually, [01:26:30] that would be really, really helpful with social media, Um, et cetera, et cetera. Um, that this is really unacceptable. Um, you know, the pending legislation. Um, that would be very helpful. Yeah, um so my question I guess sort of comes back to, um, the Swedish model and personalization of the clients. Um, do you think that that in part stems from, I guess, a societal misunderstanding of some of the reasons [01:27:00] that clients might go into a sex worker in the first place. Um, some sex workers that I've talked to in the past have talked about how they have some clients who come to them for therapeutic reasons. Like learning how to have sex again after an injury, or, you know, a whole range of things like that. Um, but I don't think we really talk about that very much or very widely. And I just wanted your opinion on that idea. Definitely. Um, I think it stems from the idea that prostitutes are are are victims. Um, and we don't need to [01:27:30] be criminalised either, because we've had all these terrible, terrible things happen to us. Um, but, you know, obviously anyone who wants to purchase sex is a bad person. Um, which we all know that you know, um, clients come in as many different shades of sex work because they're all different kinds of people. So I mean, there there are terrible clients. Um, and they are lovely clients, just like in any other industry. Yeah. So the only thing that all the all their clients to have in common [01:28:00] is they've got money, They've got enough money. And it's not even that they've got lots of money. They somehow find it. So we have a wrap up. Is there any particular things that anyone wants to thank you all for such respectful questions? Um, I was expecting to have to go. Don't shut. You've all been great. Thank you so much. It's been a real privilege talking to everyone. I'm always curious, too. If attitudes [01:28:30] were at one place and shifted either, um, throughout the discussion. So is there a show of hands if your attitude shifted or a shake of your foot or something? Or do people feel like they've kind of had some good insights or something like that? I like they close your eyes and you can see [01:29:00] also thank you to rouge. Thank you.

IRN: 731
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/clit_fest_wellington_2013_welcome.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004248
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089542
TITLE: Welcome - C. L. I. T Fest Wellington 2013
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Kevin Haunui; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: Aotearoa New Zealand; C. L. I. T Fest Wellington 2013; Kevin Haunui; Tīwhanawhana; Wellington; Wellington Irish Society Hall; takatāpui
DATE: 1 June 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington Irish Society Hall, 10 Fifeshire Avenue, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the welcome to C. L. I. T Fest Wellington 2013.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Here with, and we've been asked by the organisers to open the conference here today. So what we're about to do is just essentially, um uh, have a little bit of a a welcome from from us as a group here, uh, to you, Uh uh, an opening, uh, with the the group before we hand over to, uh, [00:00:30] the organisers, Um, and also, uh, just to introduce you to a here, which is a, uh, a talking stick. And this is a, uh, a that was given to up in, um, in Northland, uh, last year, and it's basically, like a speaking state. Um, but it's also, in my view, a listening state. And so what we'd like to do is to leave the here to listen [00:01:00] to all the that goes on during the conference over the next couple of days, Um, so that if we're not here in person because we will be going in and out of the conference, uh, over the next couple of days, the is here to gather all the, uh [00:01:30] uh just a welcome to you all, Uh, and also to all those who are not able to be with us today, for whatever reason, Uh, they have not been forgotten. Uh, and we send that out to them as well. Um [00:02:00] uh, So we also pay our respects to those things that help us to be here today, Those people And also that we pay our respects to the local. Uh uh. And of course, we're here under the under the sign, so to speak. Um, [00:02:30] And just to begin with, [00:03:00] so thank you. Mm. Hard going from scratch straight into a storm. So bear with us. We take them out to get straight in [00:03:30] to that know, N of 50 kg. Therefore, to [00:04:00] I can the 50 giga the they [00:04:30] OK mhm later. [00:05:00] Um, before I hand over that arcade to the organisers that to me, to the organisers of the three Oh, uh uh uh uh Our, um we pay our respects to the organisers of the to the speakers who are going to be [00:05:30] speaking at the, uh we thank them for all their contributions to the people at the bank who are going to be cooking all the meals, perhaps and and taking care of everyone. We hope you have a an enjoyable.

IRN: 730
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/clit_fest_wellington_2013_session_1.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004247
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089541
TITLE: Session 1 - C. L. I. T Fest Wellington 2013
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Marama Davidson; Shasha Ali
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; C. L. I. T Fest Wellington 2013; Christchurch; Idle No More; Marama Davidson; Shasha Ali; Singapore; Susan Devoy; Tino Rangatiratanga; Tiriti o Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi; Wellington; Wellington Irish Society Hall; activism; anarchism; family; fear; feminism; indigenous peoples; indigenous rights; language; mental health; migrants; poetry; racism; self determination; social; social justice; social media; spirituality; takatāpui; tau iwi; whānau; women; writing
DATE: 1 June 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington Irish Society Hall, 10 Fifeshire Avenue, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the session: Indigenous feminisms and social movements. Participants include Marama Davidson and Shasha Ali.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Can you see that? Um, so leading leading on from that sort of eighties movement of black women there is There is a rebirth of women around the world. Really particularly, um, I've said finding our morning breath and waking up to the task ahead of us because the bottom line is things need to change and they need to change now. And that doesn't mean that they're going to change tomorrow. But the work, [00:00:30] the work has been happening for some time, but I feel and I don't know about anyone else. But I feel like there is some tide that has taken the world. And it is woman across the world who need to lead that and hold it sacredly. And so I'm gonna be talking about my perspective as an indigenous woman and social movements, and and I've put the photo there. Listen, up to Papa is is pretty much my foundation [00:01:00] and the platform that I speak from and I sort of am trying to myself speak more about her as not as a symbolic concept but as a real physical, spiritual concept that we are. We are living on her and we are living with her, and we need to care for her because we haven't done a good job as [00:01:30] humans so far. So and from a Maori perspective, that is absolutely how we used to hold her precious. And I think that's part of the reason why we've we've slated her, basically, because we've lost that connection, that she is us. And so we're damaging ourselves and we're damaging her in the process. So a lot of my solutions and talking about how to go forward involves [00:02:00] what's happening in my local community. So the is here are all about investing good time into forming robust relationships with the families who are really struggling and the families who will not trust agencies and the families who will not trust someone who shows up for a few weeks and then is gone. So these nannies are out there because they have the man and they have the cheek to be able to knock on the doors of the families who will not let anyone [00:02:30] else in. And they are the very families who need the most help. So with the manner of them being and them being grandmothers, they go forward into their communities. and it's hard work developing these relationships. And I don't for a second want to, uh, lie and bullshit that forming these relationships is just a real rosy romantic event, because sometimes it doesn't happen, and sometimes it goes backwards and it's really [00:03:00] difficult. But it is also a key to the success of how we go forward and uplifting, particularly those families who are struggling and uplift and support those families to a place of interdependence. And I think this whole thing of independence is where we went a bit wrong. And that is certainly not a Maori way of living. And I actually don't think it's a human way of living. And which is why we found ourselves very [00:03:30] disconnected today and very competitive and very blaming. So the idle, no more movement pulls on some of the solidarity that was happening back then, um, women across nations and so particularly indigenous women. So this particular movement originated in, uh, Great Island in Canada, where they're pretty much just standing up. They the government, are assaulting their responsibilities as caretakers [00:04:00] for their resources, a lot of stuff around water rights, and you know this is happening around the world and it's certainly happening here. So our wahine group here knew that we needed to grab hold of these messages somehow and bring them to a and it all ties in with everything that we've been doing in terms of protecting our environment and and urging for better collective care of our people. And so part of that is how we protest [00:04:30] deep sea oil drilling. And this is a couple of years ago that's me. Down the front. There was a flotilla that left Auckland and that's all about saying we are living in a planet and we are using finite, finite resources like they're gonna last forever. And that also brings us back to looking at ourselves honestly and and asking, How much can we change our own lives? How much can we start ourselves? And that is that personally [00:05:00] is the first challenge for many of us as individuals and as families, you know, it's about buying, less consuming, less driving. This is the world that we have. We are held hostage to and have been for generations. But we need change and we need to stop being bullied that the only way we can live is with oil, and the more that we continue to demand those alternatives from our leaders who are really just setting up for a global be for global [00:05:30] corporate benefit, it's going to require massive undertaking. And so, you know, we we we got out there, as with our little Tinel flags on our kayaks, and it was just a way of us being able to say We're standing with this flotilla of all those big super yachts. We don't have a yacht, but this is what we do have. And it was it was a neat way. And it's just, you know, activism can look like so many things. There's not one right way of [00:06:00] doing it. It's what you have, the passion and the heart for at that time. This is cleaning up the oil and from the Rena spillage, and I literally I. I didn't know what to expect, and this wasn't even. This was, um, several days after, so most of it had been cleaned up. But I just got on there and I just cried because I thought, What the hell are we doing? What have we done? You know, what is this world that we're living in. It's just cruel. And [00:06:30] that was that was a real indicator for me that we just we need to change. Now. Being a mother is a power base, and and I'm not just talking about being a biological mother, but being a nurturing figure on this planet is a power base. But we haven't been told that from our leaders. And we haven't been told that from our governments. And we need to reclaim it back and say, What do I need to stand? I've got what I need to stand. I am a mother. I am [00:07:00] a nurturing figure. So when you've got no when you got too many Children and not enough arms, what do you hold up? You hold up your fist because I couldn't have a banner. I couldn't. I had a pram and all these kids, three of them are mine, and two of them are stole. What? That said What that is is when I get left to do the babysitting, you can bet your life your kids are coming with me wherever I go. So those are my brothers. Um, two right down the front, the little one in the pram, [00:07:30] and then the two boys at the back and the little girl in pink are mine. And it is. It is just it just continually saying as a mother I'm standing up, get on board is about extending the paid parental leave to 26 weeks again. The fundamental there is about respecting our place as mothers and as families, Um, which is not a priority that we have seen for far too long. And so I was one of the guest speakers there. [00:08:00] And you can see Jackie Brown, Jan Logie, Sue Maroney, Jackie Clark and Professor Tim Hazel all speaking to try and make it very clear that the way that we have been well, we haven't been prioritising families occupy a square was something that I got a involved in, particularly to decolonize it and to say and remind the movement, because what was happening in the other [00:08:30] parts of the world was that the the movement tended to forget first off that they were occupying lands that had already been occupied for generations and stolen. And so we had the benefit. By the time it got here to all of us, a few of us being able to get in there and at least do what we could, um, around decolonizing the movement and making it very clear that the occupy movement can only be truly genuine or legitimate when it acknowledges the struggles of the [00:09:00] colonised indigenous peoples of those very lands that have been occupied. And I did that presentation in a lecture series and got quite a lot of flak for it. That's just something that is very uncomfortable for a lot of us at the moment. The tragedy is I don't even have words. Um, but that's again. That's muscle flexing from the powers to basically say You are not the boss and so we just we need [00:09:30] to just get out there and do what we can to push that back consistently and another way as a as a woman, You know, again there is no right way of doing activism, But sometimes it is about picking up the positive from something that is really negative and put turning it so that that was a result from last year's Maori language week, where some parents were in the news because they couldn't stand the idea that their child was being taught Maori in the school [00:10:00] and they were very, very openly racist and adamant that that was not going to happen for their child. And so I responded with these sorts of messages. You know, why can we not embrace as a all of us, our Children learning to at the least social media? This is what I call Facebook, And this was painted by my brother for my Christmas present after he quickly realised [00:10:30] what I was up to. And so Social Media has, of course, had A has a huge impact on our activism and particularly with women. Um, we're very savvy with it. We know how to use it, and we're getting better and better at it. Um, so it's It's become a very important and essential avenue for me, and we all know that social media extends the action for anything that we do. We can send it out there and pick up a whole few 100 [00:11:00] or extra 1000 people that can participate in what just happened, for example, putting up posters and memes to quickly. I mean, we, you know, as humans, we have a 0. 1 of a second concentration span, so whatever we can do to quickly capture the gist of something that is being done to us that we need to oppose. Um, so this is all about the bill? Well, it went through, actually. You know, we I mean, we're being slaughtered. [00:11:30] I was very vocal in opposing Susan Devoy appointment, and I think Judith Collins should hang her head in shame. Absolutely. Hang her head in shame for what has happened and right at this very minute, we're seeing total inaction from her on hello race relations issues around the Rugby World Cup. As a woman, you know, there are so many dynamics there, patriarchal culture, and I mean, I'm I'm a rugby fan. My boys play rugby, My [00:12:00] brother, sister, father play rugby. But I also needed to be really conscious of what happens to us as a nation when we ignore the underlying fundamentals of of a particularly patriarchal culture. And so, at that time, there were all of these alignments being made. Um, and it was great for the government that we won rugby, and that was just despicable for me. Was I the only one hoping we wouldn't win, please? [00:12:30] And and now we're sort of coming back to black women's movements. I've been very clear and this is one of my native affairs debates and I was very clear that having Maori papa does not guarantee Maori advocacy and we, you know, Paula Bennett and are not. And I'll say this are not operating from a that that ensures collective well-being for, and I will say [00:13:00] that to their faces. And so you know, let's not confuse it. And and by the same token, there are more allies in this room who are not Maori, who will stand with a Maori perspective and what the hell why do we keep doing this today? I'm not poor, but I hate this war. Show Paul at the door. You know, we've just the The narrative that is out there is despicable and disgusting, and it affects our Children. And the cartoons are one [00:13:30] of the latest one of the latest assaults on our families. And so particularly as women, any anything that denigrates is will hit women you know quite severely and encouraging our young people to be active. And this is the man protest just a couple of weekends ago about the high the legal high drug stores that are opening, particularly not in. They're particularly opening in the poorer areas, [00:14:00] and our young people are saying we deserve better. We're getting a prison, we're getting prisons, particularly in We're getting shark loan shops, we're getting liquor outlets and we're getting drug stores. Where are our universities and as women, and particularly with the name that I have, we need to stay connected to the moon, and that is really important. And so I. I go up onto mountains whenever I can with people and we have wine and we have [00:14:30] fair trade chocolate and we in there at the last minute, and we and we reconnect with the spiritual element of what makes us and whatever that means and whatever that means. And we talk about that and we harness it, and that's really important. And so is poetry. And so that for me is also part of an an outlet to engage a different side of my brain. And I know we're all creative, and I just wanted to remind us that that is essential [00:15:00] and helps to keep us sane. And that was another poetry reading that I did in last year. and, you know, the poetry can engage us at a different level than the normal sort of political talk. And this particular poetry night was dusky maidens and noble savages. So absolutely pulling on that they mean, sort of, um who we are. Um, the system that values money over people is selfish and stale, A better world is pushing through. And she is gangster. [00:15:30] Let's clear our throat for a better song is not for sale. And that was the MC I. I was the MC for the, um, asset protest in Auckland recently, and it really is just about constantly inspiring others to get up and use their voices. And this is me on the river, in the river in Glen in. And so again, you know, as women, as our activism can take many different shapes and forms. And that's me standing [00:16:00] in the middle of a polluted river on a recycled waka, uh, made by the gentleman behind me who's Fijian and doing a and a poem as to basically say you haven't done very well and I'm ailing. I'm strong, but I'm ailing, and you need to come back into my bosom and care for me and care for each other. Better now. That's it. Yeah. [00:16:30] Yeah. Wow. Shit. Um, thank you so much for having me here. Um, as part of the wahine collective here on the panel, Um, to the clip fest organisers I I Firstly, I, I really, really want to say from the from the bottom of my heart that this opportunity [00:17:00] for me to even sit beside this one for here, But But this this moment is really for me and for some of my mates who know about my identity and and, uh uh, my my life story. I wanna take this moment to dedicate this moment to my so in my language, which is Malay means Grandma. My [00:17:30] grandmother was my role model growing up, um, she in in in my In retrospect, she she struggled mental health, mental illness. Um, she was homeless throughout my childhood. Um, she showed me the the beauty of witchcraft and traditional medicine. She taught me how to steal. Hm. [00:18:00] She taught me how to fight. She taught me how to say no when everyone was telling you to shut up and say yes. And until the very last day, she fought like a crazy mad woman that she is. And to me, that was my first taste of what being a woman was like, [00:18:30] So please be upon her. II. I hope she's happy wherever she is right now in the afterlife. But this is for you. The background of why I'm here is, um It's actually five years in coming. I think, Um, I moved to [00:19:00] a started out in Christchurch. I see that like that because it was the most horrible time of my life as a migrant. Um, from the moment I stepped out the plane 10 years ago, um, post September 11 and having a conventionally Muslim name, Um, and my mother wearing a hijab, um, I was already targeted as different from the moment I step [00:19:30] into the suburb where scribe grew up in, um, where where? I was based in neighbours with a bunch of racist skinheads. Um, and also, there were a couple of streets down, like off Hampshire Street, where the Black Power mo mo group were there. Yeah, that corner by the dairy. Yeah. Um, I was I was thrown into that that atmosphere of fear, and at first I thought [00:20:00] it must be because I'm Muslim, and then I thought, no, maybe because I'm a migrant. Um, but I never those days I never thought that I could actually articulate this because I'm indigenous. I have all these. Um the journey that I took coming to in my family was, uh, a really confusing, [00:20:30] um, and violent one, you know, kind of an 18 year old coming into a without knowing anyone in my family. Um, all that adversity kind of like, for better or for worse, put me on this journey to to fight against racism at all, cause I did, however, acknowledge and notice that in order to do that, I had to peel off these layers that I had in order [00:21:00] to have conversations with people that I could talk to about racism. So back then, I was involved with, um, some of the, um, anarchists in Christchurch. Um, and they invited me to this conference, and I still remember. And at that conference, they were initiating a dialogue on, um and and, um, the promise of anarchist movements to actually connect with that and actually meaningfully connect with that in solidarity. [00:21:30] It was a very interesting conference. But I think I spoke out too soon or something, because, um, I didn't get a lot of claps or hugs. Um, I spoke out about and shouldn't be about Maori and language. It shouldn't be language like that, Um, because it doesn't leave space for those of us who are to. I didn't use the because I only learned it a bit after that. But how? How? How does it leave for [00:22:00] those of us who are not Maori in the debate? How does that how do we connect? Then how do we, uh, link back out her stories and our histories into this? And then everyone was like, Oh, what is she on about? You know, So that was my first taste of, um, I guess try to challenge racism, even within activism within, within social movement discourse. Um, but fast track a bit. Um, a few years later, I moved to and I met up with, um and [00:22:30] and that, um so that was good. There was some sort of, you know, kind of like a collective sense of being, I guess, activism as an Asian migrant or a of a person of background. Um, and while while I was connecting as an Asian migrant in the process, you know, and and doing solidarity, work and thinking solidarity work. Um, with Maori, um, N for, [00:23:00] um I felt like I lost myself. Um, and that sense of indigenous knowledge and identity and and processing that I had because I had to think about it in the framing of being migrant. Right? So, um, everything I did III I felt I had to discount the fact that actually, I kind of know what some of these Maori women are talking about. Like I. I don't actually just know about it as an Asian person of colour thing. Um, but then every time I try to do that, um, even within the context [00:23:30] of being involved with Asian feminists, um, an activist, it's the dialogue. Doesn't get richer, right? It just kind of Oh, yeah. Yeah. So what I'm saying is, I crave, you know, I crave to to get connected with with I I crave to get connected with indigenous movements and and beyond solidarity work. I am indigenous. So where do I find that space to actually be there and work as that? [00:24:00] And I thought that I could try to do something today with regards to, um, talking about this journey in terms of negotiating space, Um, and how I did that. And I, I hope that you could also give me feedback on how I can do that further because I would really love to do this further in a and not just in a But wherever I go, I want to bring a I don't want to bring my sense of indigeneity with me. [00:24:30] So today I'm gonna talk a little bit more now about what indigeneity or what being indigenous actually means in the context of a in my perspective. Um, and then how I think that that can be situated in a global context, um, mentioned about, I don't know more And the promise it has to connect everyone from indigenous communities potentially, um, to to think about getting back to that nurturing, getting back to listening to the voice of our, uh, mother [00:25:00] Earth, Uh, my language. I call it, um we call, uh, Mother Earth. Uh, so, uh, means earth? Um, And, um, when it comes to land, when we talk about land, um, in Malay in Bahasa Malay which is the the native language of Singapore. Um, people, um, it's called. I so means land like soil. Earth? Yeah, and iron means water. [00:25:30] But two words is land in our in our language because you can't disconnect land and water. Um, when you say, Where are you from? Where's your in Singapore? I say it like that because it's that whole thing. And I don't just mean that little red dot on the map, the the ocean around it. The the the little the hills that cover through the the water, the little pockets, little ports, that's all. That's all me. Um, so So, yeah. So [00:26:00] Singapore is is where I grew up in where I was born, where I grew up in where my ancestors, um uh, for my ancestors settled in. And I say that with some caution because settler, um, is very strange term to associate with indigenous people of Singapore at the moment. But I wanted to tease out first and foremost before I go further. What does indigenous mean? Um, can [00:26:30] I ask you what? When When? What? What does the word indigenous mean in in your understanding? Yeah, I guess. For me, quickly. It, um it is a sense of being the first peoples of of that land, And so and that talks about the relationship and the responsibility to to care for it and to nurture it. Um, and it talks about that knowledge of that place, [00:27:00] having developed over generations as well. And so that's, you know, roughly roughly a a sort of where I operate from, um, absolutely associated with land and caring for land, Um, and having an intergenerational collection with land as part of your identity as part of what your identity and what your history is and what your future would [00:27:30] be as well, I definitely agree. I think that those traits definitely make someone, um, able to, I guess, legitimately identify as indigenous because, you know, it is it is common knowledge in terms of how we identify that. But, you know, I had this experience, like, last week where I was speaking to one of, uh, I was speaking to someone who's of, um, Indian nationality background. Um, [00:28:00] and we're talking about indigenous rights in Australia, which is like, Right, um, but we were going on and on and on, and then she said, something like, Well, I'm indigenous. I'm an indigenous person from India. And then I stopped and said, You're not an indigenous person, you can't use that word like that. And she was like, Why not? I am. I was born there. That land is my own. The water. And she used all these [00:28:30] words and, you know, and I said, because the word indigenous is so political, You know, if you're gonna use that word, you gotta be responsible. And why are you using it? Don't Don't use it just so that you can feel like you're connecting to the experiences of indigenous people globally today. Um, anyway, she disagreed. Um, and she thought I was full of crap. Um, but this is where my understanding [00:29:00] from my personal lived experiences come in because I think being indigenous, the that the identity of indigenous has to sort of, like, somehow situate in a central nation context because, you know, at the moment, if you are a person from China or India or different parts of Asia, where you still have the predominant ethnicity or predominant race group owning the land and owning the structures and controlling and having power, then indigenous doesn't [00:29:30] seem to fit in, You know, um and then I thought about the influx of a dominant settler like, why would there need to be a term like indigenous stand up if if was fully self determined, um governed and and and owned and and kept by Maori because there was an influx of a dominant centre who came in and decided. I'm just gonna take your lane and give you this, and you usually shut up about it, and that's it. And I will rule from today to forever, and you have nothing to say about [00:30:00] it. Um, so that was important for me to identify as well. I was like, Oh, yeah. Also, there's this idea of indigenous people being left behind, you know, like, you know, our conceptualization of time is different. Like, um, I can sit here and talk forever and, you know, just kind of keep talking and and telling these stories, because time time is supposed to be fluid. You know, it's not meant to be one o'clock to two o'clock and then the next workshop starts [00:30:30] from 2. 30. I was talking about, um, is there going to be this structure thing because I'm just really uncomfortable with that. No, it's all good. We're just gonna flow. So there there's this idea of time, which is which is very different from how we're supposedly growing up in. And it's like the idea of being left behind is is something that indigenous people you know seem to relate to and connection to land, sea and earth. Yeah, definitely. And the history of theft, [00:31:00] as in we have our land stolen from us. We have our land, um, taken away and and manufactured and and run by other people. Uh, our language is diminished, marginalised or even erased, which is the case right now in Singapore, where they're running all these Mandarin speaking campaigns to fit the purposes of the dominant group in Singapore, the Colonial group in Singapore. Um, And then, of course, the realities of poverty, Um, incarceration [00:31:30] rates, uh, death rates, violence in the home or in the street. Oh, it's so fucked up. But that's what makes us indigenous, isn't it? It's so fucked up. And that's why I tell my peer you cannot call yourself indigenous. Yeah, [00:32:00] the last bit about being indigenous, I think, for a, um for a self identified woman. Um, is that the idea of matriarchal power? Like indigenous? I don't OK, maybe I should do more research on this, But in in the Malay culture, before the influx of, um, British imperialism and before the influx of Chinese, um uh, imperialism and, uh, all that, um, And before [00:32:30] the influx of Islam, uh, our culture is I was very matriarchal, like the mother. The mother has the power to feed or not feed. And so, um, if you go hungry, then that's it. You know, um, so that that sort of concept was so, so good and ingrained. And even in the in the movies that, um, the traditional like the older movies about Singapore culture in the sixties or fifties and the those black and white movies. Like when I was watching that with my, [00:33:00] um, with my relatives when I visit, I don know why? Why do we make fun of that bossy? You know, big woman that, you know, takes care of everyone and make sure their husband gets like, pussy whipped, you know, um, that's so cool. It's like that's un Islamic. My relatives go. Yeah, and and then I was like, What do you mean? On Islamic like it's got nothing to do with religion. That's a cultural construct in anyway, Um, didn't end very well, that one as well. But, um, I guess [00:33:30] what I'm trying to say is all these features, um, at risk of sounding as if I'm stereotyping, which I I don't intend to. And I hope that's not taken that way. These are the features that unfortunately connect us as indigenous people. So it it brings me back to today because, um, as I've said with the the conference I went to in Christchurch and in Auckland being involved as a person of colour, an Asian migrant feminist da da da da da da. Um, [00:34:00] um, I've been quietly doing research on, um, what's happening in Singapore from a very underground perspective because you can't trust the news. Right? Um, and I've been kind of, you know, facebooking. And that's great at Facebook. Yeah, um, and and just emailing some of my counterparts there and there's a strong consensus of, um, driving nationalism. You know, that's the other thing. You know, when it's become nationalistic, [00:34:30] then all the indigenous discourse, just that just trickles down. Um, for instance, last year there was a There was a story about this white woman. Yeah, this white woman, Um, she's an expert. You see, in in Asia, like, if you are a white person, right from a European background, um, and you go to Asia. You're not a migrant, you're an expat. So this term is this sexy term. Like you're you're, like, qualified and cosmopolitan. [00:35:00] You're like, cool. And we need more of you to make us look cool and make us look more like democratic because you know better. Right? Um, so this expat woman who said she feels more Singaporean ever more than ever before because she married a Singaporean Chinese man and, like, you know, all that stuff And she wrote this letter to the the paper and she goes, and I don't understand why the national anthem of Singapore is in this language that nobody speaks anyway. And that language is Bahasa. [00:35:30] Um So firstly, I laughed and then I got angry, um, and and I had all my my activist peers kind of going Oh, my God, you don't. If you were here, you'd be, like, just tearing out your hair and shredding this paper to bits because it's frustrating, you know? And that then sudden, there was this discourse like, and then the politicians start coming. No, we have to respect our natives. The they are the first people, you know. The Constitution said so and, um, that's [00:36:00] not good. We are racially harmonious. We need to preserve that and and all that PC went on, um, and then it quiet loud a bit. But then what happened after that was a huge avalanche of like, um, what do you call that thing? Sensationalization of racist attacks on each other, like the this Chinese woman who's like a CEO of, like, some trade union or whatever, which is, like, What is that about? But, um, apparently, apparently she was like saying those bloody Malay weddings under [00:36:30] our apartment building. They're so loud. And that's what happens when you don't when you're poor and you don't have enough money to rent your own hotel and just just stuff, you know, And, um so a very exciting time in Singapore. Um, but I guess through all that knowledge and information I, I start thinking, Well, how do I How do I bring in a with the huge, immensely huge wealth of [00:37:00] knowledge and and from from from Maori, um, who who have set basically the the standards, you know, for indigenous dialogue and self determination in in process, Like, how do I How do I situate this as an activist who still wants to do work there somehow. Right. Um and so I felt that I don't know, more stuff going on, um, over the past year and I and I thought I don't know, I don't know which is great. And then I thought, [00:37:30] Hm. Should I start an I don't know, more Singur Facebook page. Um and so I did with very little research. I just did. I'm proud to say that as of last month, I have 100 followers on that page. 100? That's just crazy. Um, but, you know, the page is is it's not just a page. It's about me. Kind of like just putting a mark there. That Yeah, you know, um, [00:38:00] you gotta start somewhere and let's see what this one takes. But then I thought, Oh, maybe you might know where can I tell you why a few things, firstly, this I don't know more. Uh, Benner is in English, and and because it starts in English because it's articulated in English, a lot of the indigenous, um, I guess support or or or dialogue has been from Western Settle nation countries like, there's some in Australia. And then [00:38:30] there's some in obviously, in Canada in the States. Yeah, UK. Yeah, there's this sort of consensus, you know, but not very not very widespread in in in this area called Asia that we call it. Right. Um And then when I checked the news like I asked my mate, like you guys know what I don't know more is it's so hot, like it's so hot right now. They were like, No, what's that? And this is activist people that, like, you know, go to Al Jazeera and stuff. And I was like, You don't know what I don't know more is. And then I realised All right, [00:39:00] we're split, right? So you guys talk like this, and then we talk like this. Even though we speak English, then the media won't necessarily philtre through. So how are they gonna get excited about what I'm excited about on Facebook, Right. So um, So that's one thing. Like, we need to fix that stuff. Um, And then there's this idea of talking about land cultural environment protection, which is embedded in my Bahaa. It is embedded like I say, right? But [00:39:30] the generation that I grew up in, we don't talk like that in Singapore. We just don't talk like that. We've been so immersed in capitalism and and this this this notion of democracy is an ideal. And therefore you don't need any. Don't be so separatist. OK? No such thing as Malay. Only thing and you know it. I start getting attacked, um, as being, you know, separatist and stuff like that for wanting to even talk about indigenous knowledge and stuff. And so So how do I start If no one wants to talk like that with me, You know, [00:40:00] um, symbolism, You know, the I don't know, more symbol. The What's the word? The feather? Yeah, in the circle and the hold the feather. So cool. When I tried to research, how would I make a I was like, we don't have a thing. Like, um, we have a which is like a Jagger sword. Uh, no. Like a Jagger knife thing, which is a symbol of, um, male royalty and the symbol of power and and self determining power because it's so specific to Malay culture. But [00:40:30] then they get used in Malaysia is just like, you know, overhyped like, you know, traditional icon thing. And I don't want a to be there. It's like, What are you trying to poke? You know, like it's just terrible. Um and the last thing was about languaging. So I try my very best with my limited, um practise of of Malaya Malay here to kind of write a lot of stuff in Bahasa on that page. So I thought, maybe that way you will engage Malay people to kind of go Oh my gosh, you're speaking this [00:41:00] language and then they come in. But now only 100 people. So and I have, like, 600 friends on Facebook. What's that about? You know, like that's not the math doesn't work. Um, anyway, so So those are the things I teased out like the the the the this thing about I don't know more and how it can work in, but maybe not in other countries. And why is that. Why is that? It's because of this Eurocentric system in the colonisation and the knowledge that we have right now, you know. So we need to keep challenging that. And we need to encourage people who are not [00:41:30] in this room who may be of a background if you ever meet people like that to challenge that as well. But I wanted to wrap up by sharing a poem that I think you guys know this one. So, um, when I wanted to express my solidarity for I don't know more, I wrote this. Actually, prior to that, I wrote this poem called Being White. Um, I wrote that at a time when I had [00:42:00] good meaning people in my in my circle as well as other people telling me that race is beyond skin. You know, race is not just about skin or beyond skin. And I say yeah, and then, um um And then, of course, you have the usual racist people who call you reverse races because, you know, I was starting to do music in Melton Pot massacre. And everything we talk about is freaking political and people like tense, intense. Um, so I wrote this because I said I, I have to write this and then when I don't know, more [00:42:30] movement came about. I said, I have to conceptualise this. Um and some of you might have seen that on the spot. I don't know more page, which I submitted. So this one is called being white. Being white is not about a colour. It's about the systematic washing of our minds, our emotional and intellectual capacity into a blanket of unstained neutralised default status, too. We're all equal as humans or [00:43:00] a version of we're all equal Before the law, the man made law by the people that refuse to acknowledge that they operate and manufacture the very invisibility of being white. You see it being white is not about a colour. Because here I am staying since birth in what my mother swears was due to her mistake of drinking Milo during my time in her womb. [00:43:30] My mother, pure Japanese, Indonesian, looking like Chinese, the prized wife who's white in the world of my people, my people, the constitutional natives of Singapore who bathe me in talcum powder to hide me, to shame me to blame me to teach me how dirty my skin is, my skin, [00:44:00] the tint of my father, who creamed himself apologetically with day and night of my grandfather, who allied with British soldiers in World War Two of my grandmother, who rampaged the streets with ways of black magic, crying and trying to find a pathway out of the poverty and misery of being not white. [00:44:30] So tell me, what is it about being white that makes you feel so guilty? Surely it's not your fault that you were born in this day and age and being passed on the legacy of past murders, rape and slavery. Just as much as surely It's not my fault that I was born in this day and age still Brown still bearing the debt of surviving in a world where you must speak English to get a paycheck, to pay for power, [00:45:00] water and rent, and participate in the rationale of being a national of Asia and not yet a citizen of the AA gathering visas waived in the states the benefits of the industrialised aftermath of my people being fucked by the ruling Chinese government that made Singapore this idolised first world nation that rose out of the slums of that bloody third World. [00:45:30] I can never be white even if I stupidly wanted to. I am always visibly charred and shaded The marker of discrimination, exploitation, oppression, victimisation, pollution, disenfranchisement and this pain your invisibility cloaks you wraps you holds [00:46:00] you warms you alive, active, moving, progressing, leading, determining, freeing, saving me The white people who reject being white somehow talk about transcending all colours, seeing people as people, they say seeing cultures as cultures. They say seeing places as places they say. But can you not? The blood dripping off every person [00:46:30] you touch the tears streaming through every mountain and ocean You fly over and every step you take across the border is our ancestor spirit. You shake while we sleep awake. Mhm. Now tell me if being white is not a colour and I will rest your knowing where the lines are drawn in your supposed solidarity with me [00:47:00] and my people of colour. Thank you.

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TITLE: Bruce Kilmister profile
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VOICES: Bruce Kilmister
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1950s; 1980s; AIDS Support Network; AZT; Air New Zealand; Alan Ivory; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland AIDS Council; Auckland City Council; Australia; Body Positive; Bruce Burnett; Bruce Kilmister; Candlelight Memorials; Circle of Friends Memorial; DDI (Didanosine); David Hay; Don McMorland; Fran Wilde; HIV / AIDS; Hero (Auckland); Hero Charitable Trust; Human Rights Commission; Jay Bennie; Jenny Shipley; Johnny Givins; Jonathan Smith; Judith Tizard; Kate Leslie; Kawhia; Kevin Baker; Manatū Hauora Ministry of Health; Max Abbott; Michael Bancroft; Mike McSweeny; Miriam Saphira; Neville Creighton; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Peter Beck; Ray Taylor; Rex Halliday; Richard Meech; Rod Ellis-Pegler; Rule Foundation; San Francisco; Scott Johnston; St Matthew-in-the-City; Sydney; TV3; Todd Andrews; Tony Hughes; United States of America; Warren Lindberg; World AIDS Day; addiction; church; counselling; death; discrimination; employment; funding; gay; health; health system; homophobia; homosexual law reform; internal stigma; media; mental health; peer support; pride; self esteem; stigma; suicide
DATE: 9 June 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Bruce talks about his childhood, the early years of HIV in New Zealand, the NZ AIDS Foundation, Hero and his work with Body Positive.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, um, I'm a very typically New Zealand born and bred person, um, to, um, a working mother and father who we grew up in a state house for Children. Um, my twin sister and I and then stepbrother and sister to my mother's first husband, Um, working family. Uh, after the war, Dad, uh, was a plasterer. Mother was a seamstress at the age of seven. [00:00:30] Father, um, left home leaving a mother out to bring up the family by herself. And we had, you know, state schools, Wesley Primary, Wesley Intermediate, then Mount Rosco grammar school. And then, of course, as soon as I could, I started work to help bring some funds into the house. But also, I suppose to mainly satisfy myself having had no funds at all. Um, and those sorts of things I most young men [00:01:00] at that stage wanted a motorbike, and then a car and those sorts of things and then independence to live alone in a flat. What? What kind of, um, year are we talking? Um 1951 was when I was born. So, um, by the 1969 I suppose I was, uh, at the age of 18 I'd left home. Um, 19. I was left home and working. [00:01:30] Um, And then when I As soon as I turned 21 I saw an advertisement in the paper for by Air New Zealand advertising for, um, flight crew. So I decided I'd never travelled overseas, and this would be an easy, economical way to do it. I'd pay for it, so I applied. And within three weeks, I was in their training school. It was a bit of a rush because they were bringing in the DC tens, the new jumbo [00:02:00] jets. Well, um, and after that, six weeks of training, which normally was 12 weeks because they needed a lot of crew quickly, I was in the air flying DC tens, and that was a approved, uh uh, very interesting lifestyle, but only for about 18 months. Because after 18 months, you've served a million cups of teas to, um, people and you think, can I do another million cups of teas? And then I did [00:02:30] something rather foolish. I brought um, I brought a stereo in for one of the hostesses, Um, under my concession because I was passenger back when she was crewing back and, um, they said that was inappropriate. So they decided that the best thing I could do was resign. Anyway, it was at a time when I felt I was ready to resign as well. So then I went to work for national electrical and engineering for [00:03:00] a few years as their shipping purchasing manager. And then I moved to a textile firm called Snow Ranger Textiles for a few years, Uh, and from there to another textile company. Um, at which time I ascertained there was appropriately some opportunity for me to join a couple of other guys to start our own business [00:03:30] not in textiles, but in servicing textile importers by being their customs agents and shipping managers and that sort of thing. So we started a, um, a customs and shipping, uh, operation, which was very successful until one of the partners decided to have a major, um, melt down and leave the, um, lead [00:04:00] the company into this. I think it was called Self Transformation. New Age thinking and all this sort of stuff. Well, I didn't want a bar of it, so I resigned and then went to start up a restaurant just as an alternative lifestyle with my then partner and, um, as well as starting up another customs and shipping agency under my own hat because they wouldn't pay me a penny for my third share. Anyway, uh, started that up. And that [00:04:30] went very well until I finally decided to close that all up in about 19, 2000, Um, and retire, which lasted for about 90 days and then thought, I have to do something. So I, um, came back in to volunteer my time at body positive. But all the way through that I'd been very active in the gay community in terms of helping get the [00:05:00] New Zealand AIDS Foundation established by joining the Founding Board. My good friend Alan Ivory invited me to come on to the board with Kate Leslie as the the then chairperson. And my role was to help fund raising because I was in private business. And, uh, it was the Their perception was I knew how to find money and, uh um, and after the AIDS Foundation, then I got very much involved in the hero project, um [00:05:30] uh, and got involved through that for many years, starting the hero parade, and then after hero moving across into body positive. And here I am today. When did you first become aware of HIV and AIDS? I suppose it would have been in the, um, just in the early mid eighties. Um, because we were seeing these reports in the media. And more than that, I was hearing from friends. [00:06:00] Um, it was rumoured when Bruce Burnett came back that it he wasn't well, and he was trying to convince the ministry of this terrible thing coming. We didn't even have a name for it then. It was just a disease that was killing gay people. Um, it sounded too far fetched to believe. But then the media started giving these horrendous reports, and, uh and it was all, of course, during law reform as well. I was very much involved with gay law reform, [00:06:30] helping Fran Wilde, and, um, and that was very much a part of, um, having established the AIDS foundation, which was predominantly supported to, um, support at that time, a criminal class of people which which the ministry and its existing infrastructure could not hope to reach, or or or target all to be able to combat AIDS [00:07:00] and Um uh, So my awareness, I suppose, was like anybody else's. But then I became very involved with, um The reason for law reform was so that we could decriminalise a class of people and have much greater effectiveness of the AIDS programmes into our community. So they sort of went hand in hand for me at that time in the mid eighties, HIV and law reform, et cetera. And then, of course, I think it was 86. We got law reform, [00:07:30] which was fantastic. That was a momentous occasion. I can remember being down in the house and in Parliament at the time with Fran and my good friend Alan Ivory. Allen wrote the Constitution for the AIDS Foundation. He and Don McMullan, uh, helped write the legislation for the Amendment to the Crimes Act for Fran Wilde. And Fran invited us down for the third reading. And I can remember, um, I can remember sitting in the house and looking [00:08:00] down and Trevor Mallard looking up. And of course, we we'd all become very close friends in those days and Trevor telling me or mouthing, we've got the numbers, we've got the numbers, but of course you could never be sure, because until that final vote was called, it was quite a knife edge. But it was an incredible experience to actually win. And it was a really interesting campaign, wasn't it? Because it was so also tightened with the the kind of emergence of of AIDS. It was It [00:08:30] was very much in terms of, uh, some of the rationale behind decriminalising homosexuality was so that you could, um, rationally reach a, um uh, a piece of the population that was predominantly underground in terms of the law. And of course, the subsequent more difficult to reach for having the, um I suppose whatever there was they had to provide for for, uh, people with HIV or to to to reach them just to [00:09:00] to communicate with them. So they did go pretty much hand in hand. Although, um, there was that strong connection. Law reform very much stood on its own merits to decriminalise what should have been decriminalised earlier. Can you paint for me a picture of of what the feeling was like in New Zealand when those first reports of AIDS emerged, you know? What was it? Something like Oh, that's over there in San Francisco was it was very much a oh, God. Only in [00:09:30] America. You know, we sort of hear these extremist reports and and you think, Oh, only in America, and we'd heard these things, and they really weren't very clear at all. Just simple reports about, um, people wasting and dying And, um, those sorts of things and and, um but then it was I. I started to be identified with, um, with homosexuals, and that's when I suppose we started to prick our ears [00:10:00] up. And, um And then, of course, um, uh, the New Zealand swung into action after Bruce Burnett came back and got things going. He met with some great people. Um, Richard, Um oh, Richard, the physician from the bays. Uh, his name will come back later, but anyway, um, he was very much involved in getting things going medically with the ministry as well as Bruce. [00:10:30] And then, um, Bruce came up to Auckland Hospital, met Kate and Kate. Leslie got her going, and she Raed some other professionals around like Max Abbott, who was the then director. I think of the Mental Health Foundation were very much involved in mental health and Myriam Sara, Um, other people like that was just great. And then once they'd signed that, then Alan approached me to come on board for to support them to, um, uh, help with the fundraising [00:11:00] because the they had our first grant of just $30,000 which, of course, was gone almost in no time. And we swung into action. And, um, we got our first grant of $100,000 out of the ministry. And I remember Alan and I went to see Bob Harvey in his then capacity as running one of the large advertising organisations. And Bob was very helpful as to how we could start to blitz, [00:11:30] uh, again, the community in terms of HIV awareness, et cetera. Um, yeah, it was a case of getting what message you put out there. There wasn't much information about it in terms of, and the media was certainly sensationalising it because it, you know, people were, um, were just simply falling like flies in America. And then, of course, we started to see the devastating effects it had around here and the mid eighties through to the early [00:12:00] nineties, and the number of people that were just, um um dying. It's, uh I mean it it was it it it was a a sense of Oh, it's only in America. It won't impact on us. It's, you know, over there, it's not here. And then we heard reports of it in Australia reporting its first cases. And then, of course, um uh, it it just wasn't as if it came knocking on the door and announced it was here just suddenly it was [00:12:30] because suddenly people were getting sick. Um, and, uh, it's it's as if it had all ready as if it was here. It probably was already here. It's just that it's just started to surface. It started to manifest itself into people becoming really quite sick. And the community was, um it it it was quite amazing because almost every time you met somebody, the conversation [00:13:00] was a quick update on on what you'd heard. And it was all rumour and all gossip. But, you know, you've heard so and so has become ill or so and so is in hospital. Or, um, guess, uh, so and so has died. And I guess it was, um um, pretty scary stuff. It's It's as if it was, um you'd heard about this thing from offshore et cetera. But now, suddenly you're in the middle of a minefield where things were going off all around you, and, uh, people [00:13:30] and people you actually knew, uh, were identified as becoming sick or in hospital, um, or so and so has been diagnosed with it. The diagnosis was really when people were ill. It was a little bit after that. We, uh we were testing people, and I was very much involved again. It, uh, with the AIDS foundation in trying to get, um, uh, clinics set up so that we could do testing. One of the first things [00:14:00] we did was, um, to employ a, uh, an executive director for the AIDS Foundation. We had at that stage only, uh, a staff of, uh, really three volunteers, Neville Cry and Tony Hughes and and Ray Taylor. Um, and one of the first things we had to do was when we had some money was to employ an executive director. So Ellen Ivory and myself were the interview panel of two, and we interviewed a range of people, but Jill [00:14:30] Amos was also part of the board. And she said that she'd had knew of a man called Warren, um, to be interviewed, Um, and he should be considered for the position. So we interviewed, uh, Warren and employed him for the executive director of the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. And he did, uh, he did a He did a great job. Um, because he came with some political astuteness, and it was highly politicised HIV [00:15:00] in those days. And, um um uh, Warren Lindberg was just excellent. And going through that minefield of politics around HIV and AIDS and and and on top of that, he he had come from a background of teaching and he had strong connections in the labour movement and in in that educational ministry sort of stuff. So again, working with the Ministry of Health, he was excellent in that, too. So, I, I sort of think one of the greatest things I ever was part of was [00:15:30] getting Warren on board to take up that position. And then one of the first things we did was to rehouse the AIDS Foundation. At that time, it was in a tiny little office. Um, up there in, um, where Metropole Uh the Metropolis building. I think it's called today and there was a building there which housed Lufthansa, and we had a tiny little office in the back. Um, we had to rehouse it and we finally got a clinic opened [00:16:00] in the Wallace block, the old Wallace block, which is now demolished and gone. That was up at Auckland Hospital. It was in the basement. And, um uh, that provided some testing for HIV. And then, of course, we opened up. Um the next centre was in Wellington and the next centre was in Christchurch. But they were unusual models. They did not fit within the DH B, um, model [00:16:30] that they would The DH B would be totally in control and and and own the funding for them. This was separate, and that again was a whole rash of infighting, um, between the AIDS Foundation and getting the DH BS to actually provide and accommodate the clinic for which for which we would have control. And of course, um, there was that, um, sexual health felt that should be under their control. Infectious diseases was [00:17:00] something on board and felt it should be under their control and then to have it completely under a community group. Control was alien to them, but we finally set those up. And we got those, um uh, testing going and then counsellors coming on board for positive diagnoses. What was it like? Um, when the tests actually came in? Because, I mean, for a period in the eighties where there was no test, as you say, people were just, you know, kind of, uh, it was only when [00:17:30] they got ill that, you know, they suddenly realised that they might have something. That's right. Um, and that was one of the first things they they actually did was to find a a test for which it could be. And I can remember that it was finally identified as a virus. Um, and, uh and then, um, we saw that come through fairly quickly. I think Richard Meach, uh, was very involved in keeping New Zealand medically up to date with what was happening in America and Australia [00:18:00] and was quick to, uh, make sure we could provide the, uh, the laboratories to, uh, with the facility to to do the blood work. But the testing in itself was a frightening prospect because I can remember we would do, um, people, people would come in for testing in the old way. The phlebotomist would take blood from your arm and it would go to the laboratory and you'd get the results back in a week if it was negative, because you'd only go to what we call the ELISA test. [00:18:30] And if the ELISA test was negative, it was negative that would come back. But if the Eliza test was positive, the hospital would keep it for a confirmatory test what they call the Western Block test. And that would take another week. And it started to get quite scary because people knew that if they didn't get their results back within a week, that it was likely to be positive. And that was really frightening for people. So we then I think I I might be a bit hazy on this, but I think at that stage, we had to implement a regime [00:19:00] of saying results would be two weeks before people could access them again because we were worried. In fact, there were suicides, um, between one and two weeks. So again, uh, to to just simply put everybody into that same level. We wouldn't give results in two weeks. I might be wrong on that. But I remember that was a real issue at the time for people, um, coming in for testing and the reason for the potential reason for somebody suing in that that [00:19:30] that time frame was it? Just because the life expectancy of somebody with AIDS at that time was was not high? Well, it it wasn't. We had no idea of what life expectancy people could have. All we knew was that, uh, that we'd heard this thing from overseas. And suddenly we're in the middle of this minefield with people dropping all around us. And we we now could clearly identify that people, um, that that was impacting the gay community. And suddenly people were getting sick and and [00:20:00] not long after they were dying. Um, there was no cure. There was nothing there at the time. Uh, it was some way later that we heard of this, uh, medicine called a ZT, but that was still way off in America, and still very much a trial situation. All we knew is that, uh, that you got this thing and and you died from it and people all around us were getting this thing. And, uh, and we dying. Um, and [00:20:30] people were doing all sorts of things. I mean, I was very much involved in my business at the time and had a lot of travel between Australia and New Zealand. In fact, I had an apartment in Sydney as well as my home in Auckland, and my brother was in Sydney and a lot of friends in Sydney. It was still the mecca for gay men to migrate to ultimately, And, um uh, and I sort of saw it on both sides of the Tasman. More so in Australia, where it really had grasped the community and [00:21:00] people were getting sickened and dying. In fact, I can remember one guy. Um, he was a close friend of my partner and he had been invited to a party, and this young man who wasn't very well wanted to have a party, so he was going to go to a motel and and kill himself, Uh, but have a party. And then the last thing in the morning overdose. Um and I can remember, [00:21:30] um, this young man who friend of us was so, uh, it It actually, uh, he thought he would cope with it, but he didn't cope with it at all. In fact, it changed him. Uh, he became very, very ill for many years after and impacted very badly on him. And And that was all there was no good news. It was It was, um, death all around you. Um, yeah. It was just just frightening stuff. And then, of course, um uh, when [00:22:00] when I got my diagnosis, Um, there was no, There was absolutely no cure or nothing. And they had no idea what time to expect and said, Look, don't panic. But, you know, we think this will be at least six months before you have to be concerned. And, uh, about, uh, death and dying and all that sort of thing. It was pretty scary stuff back then. What? We, um [00:22:30] I think I was about 19. 88 1990. So 30 something, I suppose? Yeah, I because I was working in Sydney as I was in my own business, I thought, Oh, I should just pop in and have a, um, a check up. And, um, anyway, I went back [00:23:00] the following week um and he said we had They'd lost all my blood results, so I had to start the whole thing again. Well, that was in a week. I was over there between starting the week and finishing the week I visited the doctor. So I did the second lot of tests at the end of the week. And, uh, it was another month before I was back in and I went back, and, uh, it was then that he told me the result was positive. And, um uh was rather taken back for it, because by that stage, we knew that [00:23:30] it was, uh, sexually transmitted. Um, and I thought, um, I knew everything there was to know about it and which, in fact, there was very little to be known. So, um, you could say you knew everything about it. Certainly. All that all that was known about it. Um, but we did know that it was being sexually transmitted and that that we should, uh, use condoms. Uh, and very much. Um, people were being extraordinarily [00:24:00] careful and I. I just cannot remember the incident or the occasion in which this transition of infection of the virus would have been transmitted to me Because again, I was a young, sexually active gay man living the pre age party lifestyle in Sydney with, um, all of the accoutrements of that sort of lifestyle and what it provided and and everything that I could, you know, materialistically [00:24:30] want or socially achieve was all mine. And my partner and I were having a great lifestyle and, uh, thought we were being careful. But I can remember, um, uh, the reason I went to the doctor in Sydney is the week before I wasn't feeling too well, went home to their Sydney apartment, sat down and started to get violently. Um um um, just shaking. I couldn't stop shaking as if you've got this [00:25:00] heavy, cold and shivering, etcetera. And finally, when I could finally get off the, um, lounge chair to go to bed, I got up in the morning and found I was all I was completely covered in some kind of red rash. So that's what drove me to the doctor, um, for a test. And as I say, I went back at the end of the week and, um, they'd lost the blood, so I had to do them again. And when I got back to Auckland, um saw the doctors but [00:25:30] refused to let them do a test because I'd already done one in Sydney. And I didn't want people in Auckland to know because I was very much involved in the, um AIDS Foundation and law Reform and my own business, et cetera. And then, of course, um uh, when I got the diagnosis in Sydney, it it was a terrible, um, situation, I suppose, then and not long after my partner was also diagnosed positive. Um [00:26:00] and that was, um, um, equally as unattractive. But it just, you know, seemed to be whether whether we were being diagnosed for something we'd had sitting there for years. We had no idea or recently contracted it. And perhaps possibly I'd had it for some time because I cannot remember exactly the time of transmission or even have a suspicion. And a lot of people had sort of think, Well, maybe that there was that time. Perhaps, but I can't [00:26:30] remember any specific time one or two incidents that perhaps may be, But, um, again, I always remember being careful with condoms once we knew about it. Strange um, but, you know, I call that the immaculate infection. Anyway, that was back then. And you were saying that the doctor was saying, what, six months you've got six months to Yeah, this [00:27:00] was a doctor in Holdsworth house in Sydney, in Oxford Street. And, um, he was a He was a I can't remember his name, but he was very much involved with, um He was a gay man and very much involved with, um uh, HIV positive clients and, uh, his life. I remember his. It impacted badly on him, too. He had to leave after a while because he was just delivering these death sentences to people almost daily [00:27:30] and, uh, seeing people sick all around. And he went away, in fact, and another doctor started to look after me. And he said, You know, we've got this medication now from America called AZT. We'd like to start you on this. And that was fantastic because, um, I was thinking that what am I going to do for the rest of my life? I don't want to spend the rest of it worrying about making money for the next payroll. Um, I was [00:28:00] sort of getting to a conclusion of wanting to do what everybody did sort out what time I had left and plan how to get as much enjoyment out of life as I could. Um, so I thought, OK, well, I'll try this a 10. And it really started to do something. It started to build up my immune system again, and it started to reduce the virus and and it was fantastic. But of course it was monotherapy. And monotherapy by itself is not sufficient. So after [00:28:30] a few months, we started to see a decline in the immune system once again. And, um uh, and that was a pattern that they were seeing again and again and again countless times. And, of course, they they were then introduced a new medication. I think it was D, DC or DD. I, the great big horse. We used to call them horse pills. They were difficult to swallow. And the pill regime pill regime back then was pretty frightening because I can remember [00:29:00] at one stage having to take over 30 pills in a day. And, um, and and people weren't staying well, uh, either Anyway, dual therapy. It was a repeat of monotherapy. It worked well for a little while, uh, until they finally worked out that a triple therapy was the absolute gold standard for people. But by to know, triple therapy arrived. I was already resistant to, uh, to some of the [00:29:30] classes of drugs because, having failed mono and and and dual therapy, So anyway, as more drugs came along and so forth and we were able to find a cocktail and the invention of protease inhibitors which were much stronger in another class of drugs, um, I've always been shall we say, pretty much at the forefront of of getting the newest drugs to, uh, to take and And today I'm I'm delighted that, you know, I'm still here, [00:30:00] still here, but my partner never made it. Sadly, he, um he he suffered terribly from the side effects of these early medications. They were highly toxic, and, um, they would make his life just miserable. Hell, the the nausea and diarrhoea and sickness. And he thought that they were, you know, chose not to take them. And I I can remember struggling to hold him down while his cousin tried to force these pills down his throat and [00:30:30] Finally, we just had to accept that he wasn't going to take them. And he wasn't going to be well in the hospital. Uh, at that time was Rod. Alice Pegler was the physician in charge, and he told us that we thought he would die because of not taking medication. And he'd also had to tell us that he had tuberculosis at the same time which we thought didn't exist anymore. But suddenly we were seeing the reemergence of things like TB and so forth. [00:31:00] So we arranged to put Victoria to stay with his cousin, uh, in an apartment in Lorne Street. And it was called the Maria in the sky because it was a beautiful big apartment on the fifth floor top floor of this building just next to Khartoum place. And, um, because there were a lot of, um, uh his cousins and Maori boys, gay Maori boys living there. He was able to get 24 7 care. And, um, it was there that he spent his final days, [00:31:30] and I still remember his his last morning. Uh, and I'm not gonna tell you that it's too technical, personal, and I do get emotional, even after all years. He is remembering it. But, um, it was a very graceful determination that he, um And then, uh, we had a lovely service in Saint Matthews, in the city for him and in the sort of traditional way of farewell people. And then we took him home to his, [00:32:00] which was in and as I can remember, because there was still all the stigma. There still is, of course, even today the stigma and worry and fear about aids that we weren't even sure we'd be able to take his body, Um, on to the But, um um, his, uh his grandmother had such mana. She'd passed away, But the memory of her and his family was such, uh, so powerful that of course, we [00:32:30] were welcomed on, and he lay in state, as I call it for three days on the before we finally turned him into his grave. And that was, uh, that was an amazing experience. Yeah, And then I thought we know a lot more about, um, HIV and AIDS, and we know what causes it. [00:33:00] And we know now that we've got medication for it. And, um, the AIDS Foundation is really geared up to it, and it's doing a great job. It was time for me to, um, move on to something and because we'd achieved law reform, I thought what we need now is social reform because you've changed the law. But still, stigma and discrimination about homosexuality, et cetera, was, um, was still very much stereotyped [00:33:30] and paedophilia, criminality, effeminacy, et cetera. So I thought, we need some social reform. And I, um My good friend Rex Halliday had some initiative within the New Zealand AIDS Foundation to do AAA party. And because I'd at that age in my life a lot of experience with a lot of parties and in Sydney, And that was half of the fun of having a business that I could transit between Sydney Office and Auckland [00:34:00] office was I could also go to all of the Sydney parties and the underground parties and all those sorts of things. So, I, I, um I joined um, Rex's little group to help organise the hero party. I came on in, um uh, for hero two. And, um, so did a man called Scott Johnston who, uh, has become a very close personal friend. And, um I can remember still being on the board [00:34:30] of the AIDS Foundation when when poor old rex started to have some problems with with the AIDS foundation. So, uh, we decided that this little party project should carry on And, um uh, and Scott Johnston and I, um, went to see Warren Lindberg and said this has to carry on because it's become so valuable and we had, um, some difference of opinion, but, [00:35:00] uh, we decided to to, um, register hero. Um and it became the hero Charitable trust. Um and also, we then thought rather than risk the trust aspect which all the proceeds from the party were distributed to the community to fight HIV aids rather than, um, expose the trust to commercial risk. We'd also then establish a legal liability the Hero Project Limited, which would [00:35:30] carry on the commercial trading aspect of the hero party. And it was the hero Project Limited. That was the legal entity that undertook all of the commercial activity of organising the party and the festival and later the parade. And then once that had all been realised, and that the proceeds determined, uh, those, uh, profits were passed across to the trust to distribute through to the the community. But very quickly we found this [00:36:00] was getting, shall we say, uh, beyond, um, a small operation that was escalating very quickly. And, um, there was ambitions about a parade, and there was ambitions to make it bigger and better. So we determined that we should, um, keep a seeding fund of 30,000 for the next year's event, which we did. And, um and I can remember the next event had a massive loss. Um, and [00:36:30] rather than because it was too valuable to let go, I put my hand in my pocket and I can remember way back then, paying out $76,000 to keep the thing to keep the creditors and away and paid and keep the reputation, uh, going well. And I made sure then because I was, uh, chairman from, um uh three hero three on. Made sure that we managed [00:37:00] budgets and that we ran it properly and, uh, really did start to come together nicely. And, um uh, it was in our hero four that we decided that there should be a parade. I think it was hero four. That we started the first parade down Queen Street and hero five. It was Queen Street, and then we moved it up to Ponsonby Road. But by that stage, um, when we applied, it was really the parade which brought the whole matter to the attention [00:37:30] of the civic authorities. And I can remember, um, the the other gay groups telling us that they were struggling with funding applications with the Auckland Auckland City Council. And, um, I can remember us having to go to the Auckland City Council for permission. First of all, to get licences for our liquor, uh, selling at the parties and, uh, the horrendous problems [00:38:00] Scott was having. And in securing those licences, it was virtually virtually right up to the 11th hour sometimes. And we thought there was more than just protocol and bureaucracy involved. We thought there was some some real, um, uh, discrimination consideration going on in there. And finally, um, when we organised the parade, we we were, um, uh asking for some support. And we knew we [00:38:30] were advised by officers that the councillors were very much against the whole homosexuality display et cetera and wouldn't support it. So we found out what the internal machinations of council granting were. And we found that council officers had authority to make a grant of up to 10,000 without having to go further up for political consideration. And I can remember getting [00:39:00] a grant for 10,000, which absolutely infuriated some of the council offices, council laws. Um and then even worse, I then went around to each of the local community boards. And I remember Kate Leslie, who was chairman, a chairperson of the AIDS Foundation, was also, uh, I think she was chairperson of the Hobson Bay Community Board and, um approached Kate and asked for some funding. And I went to lots of them, and I got funding [00:39:30] from at least three or four or five of them. And I remember again the, um, the deputy mayor at that time, David Hay, who, incidentally, was at school with me at Mount Rosco grammar. And um uh, he expressed his complete annoyance with council officers making those grants to us, and, um, and then we started to we had a community meeting, as we always did at the end of a hero, and we decided that we should, [00:40:00] uh, take this issue to the council, and we then asked to appear within the council meeting or address the councillors at one of their regular meetings. Um, about the hero project. And, um uh, that quickly escalated because we heard that the deputy mayor was asking his more conservative Christian, uh uh, people groups to come along to support his argument. [00:40:30] So we then decided we had to quickly spread the word to invite gay people to come and support us. And before we knew it, the whole thing had escalated and become very public. Um, and media, media interest and, uh, was being transferred from the, um from the normal, Um uh, council meeting room, uh, in the town hall to the main chamber. And, uh, and we filled up. I mean, the whole [00:41:00] town hall was filled, even in the, um, the gallery seats, uh, with all sorts of people from, uh, supporting and neither very much for hero or very much against. And, uh, and I can remember going to Peter Beck. Peter Beck was the reverend at Saint Matthew's in the city at the time and saying, Peter, I'm asked asking you to come and support us and speak with me to the councillors about how important this event is for the gay community [00:41:30] and and for us to be able to, um, identify with the positive aspects of of our community for the integration, et cetera, and communicate and educate people about HIV and A I DS because that was very much a strong focus of the reason of heros existence. And, um uh, Peter came and spoke for us. And then Warren Lindberg also came and spoke as well. And that was, um that was a powerful time for [00:42:00] our community to confront what was one of the most last one of the last bastions of of, um of homophobia. But but, um um, uh, official homophobia, if you like, it was within local government. And in fact, it resulted in us taking a complaint to the Human Rights Commission. Um, about their shall we say, um, discrimination and handling [00:42:30] the applications of gay groups for funding. Um, because the the councillors at the time were very anti, um, hero, and in some of the subcommittees would make disparaging comments about certain applications from gay groups, et cetera, and I'm embarrassed to say in in in many years later, it still happens to some degree. Even when I was involved in an elected representative [00:43:00] within council, I'd still hear these comments. Anyway, At that time, I can remember thinking we need to get some of the councillors on support. So I, uh, telephoned every single councillor from my home and asked if they would support the hero project. And at the time Judith Tizard was, um, the she was the local member of Parliament for Auckland Central. She had just recently, um, taken over what was Sandra Lee's electorate seat. And [00:43:30] Sandra Lee was very much for the event, because when we had the parade, she was in the parade and, uh, very happy to support it. And then Judith Tizard was very supportive, and she came to my apartment up in Gunson Street when I was phoning these counsellors and she listened to some of the abuse I I got one counsellor and I won't say who, but threatened me with all sorts of action and said I should be locked up. Uh, I was a criminal and I was perverted and etcetera, and [00:44:00] it was just shall we say something that I identified and made. It was very clear for me that the homophobia or the stigma and discrimination was very much a generational thing very much in terms of my father and and parents generation, because they had, um the the the only understanding of homosexuality was criminalised behaviour, etcetera. And, um, [00:44:30] uh, I suddenly got a taste. A very first hand. Direct taste of this, um, this this opinion of homophobia. So I thought, Well, we can't allow that to, um, continue. And we have to We have to take, um, the council on. And we have to argue for the parade to carry on and and to be promoted. And it was becoming very, very popular because it was everything that could constitute rebellion [00:45:00] to civic authority. I suppose, um and we were mindful that we wanted to still have it very much cutting edge in terms of its attractiveness and and its sexual challenges, because it was homosexuals in the face of the general community. But I also wanted it to be, um, fun and friendly and and, uh, very much, um, saying we are we we're not [00:45:30] a we we we we we shouldn't. You shouldn't be afraid of us because we're human too, and putting very much, um, a community, um, attractiveness to it by being outrageous and flamboyant and all those things that people sometimes associated with the community into actual floats and party parades and marching boys and all that fabulous as well as having the the hero, uh, remembrance [00:46:00] float for those that had died from AIDS and having organisations like body positive And, um uh, the other AIDS organisations involved to, um, the Auckland AIDS Council to, um, be very much involved in in the in the in the parade as well. And it just seemed to go well, um, thereafter it become it become huge. Um, it was a a national brand name, and and we were being invited to [00:46:30] speak at conferences for advertising organisations about how we'd turned this little community event into a national household brand name. Um And then, of course, um uh, Scott decided to move to Wellington again for personal reasons or relationship reasons. And I asked Mike McSweeney to come and be the exec, the [00:47:00] director of hero. Um and that went well, Uh, and then, in sort of 1998 there was a strong suggestion that perhaps my time was over, and we should have We should have some new blood, um, to take it forward and to carry on. And I I've of course, um remember thinking Well, yeah. Perhaps there's some sense in that and some new [00:47:30] ideas and so forth. Um, and but I was a little bit conflicted because it was a It was a baby that Scott and I had taken under our wing, and we developed it to be this incredible, uh, incredible festival. Um, and I can still remember some of those parties and and and the parades, et cetera. They were, um, totally unheard of or unseen in in New Zealand. And they would They became instantly, um, [00:48:00] popular. And And I can remember the achievement of getting after having all of the antagonism from the Auckland City Council, um, suddenly being gazumped when we'd managed to get the prime Minister to agree to come and open the parade for us and having Jenny Shipley there, and, um, and and the amazing um uh uh an I did to stopped everybody in in the hero offices and made this announcement. [00:48:30] And there was rapturous applause Um, but again, that was just a a smart politician, knowing that there'd be a, uh, 100 and 50 to 250,000 people gathered in one place. And she was she could count votes better than anybody. So we we were happy to have that. And, of course, the council and the mayor took a very dim view about that and said she was sending the wrong message, et cetera. But we were delighted, in fact, that it [00:49:00] it certainly did expose, I suppose any antagonism towards, um, homosexuality. It seemed to bring it out of people and and, uh, in in a way that we hadn't experienced since the early law reform days. Um, but certainly there were gay people suddenly becoming proud to be who they were and and and no longer no longer afraid. Um, but we had [00:49:30] still institutional opposition. I can remember on Pons Road, um, near the western park. There's the, uh, church. And forgive me. I'm not sure if it's the Mormon Church or Seventh Day Adventist Church, but it's in secure grounds with the fencing around it. And I remember going to ask them if they would allow the prime minister and her entourage to park the official government limousines in their grounds whilst the prime [00:50:00] minister came over to the, um, front of Western Park to open the hero parade. And, uh, they said they'd have to think about that. And then two weeks later, they came back and said they would accept that as long as I signed a document. Um uh, that acknowledged in that acknowledged their acceptance of allowing the prime minister to park her car on their premises could not, in any possible way, [00:50:30] be interpreted as their support or endorsement of the hero project Parade and homosexuality. So So we still had all of that institutionalised stuff coming at us from in in odd situations. And, um uh, but again, the incredible success of the parade and then getting that wonderful man Johnny Givens to come on board from, I think TV three, we we contracted to [00:51:00] film the hero parade, and we got a lovely fee, I think $30,000 a year, two or three of them filming the parade, Uh, and and getting, um uh, so much support because, uh, I can remember. It was all of the funds from the party that we used to fund the parade in years in the first year or two of the of the parade because no sponsors were would want to get on board. And then suddenly they saw the success [00:51:30] of the parade and the people that came to it and the potential commercial opportunities, and we were flooded with sponsors. And I can remember both lion and DB breweries wanting to be the main sponsor for us because they just saw so many commercial opportunities for themselves. And we again, um, saw this incredible machine grow to be, uh, the the thing it was. But to finally have some financial support and backing that, [00:52:00] um, had previously stayed away as if it was, you know, um, some disease ridden thing. But now it was the most fabulous night time thing, and, um, and and everyone rushed to be associated with it. So that was up until about 1999 I. I took on the advice and thought, Well, my good friend Scott had now moved overseas with his partner, and so had Mike McSweeney, who took over the directorship after Scott [00:52:30] and I decided to step down But I said I'd stay on to help write the budgets for the next year. And, um uh, they didn't seem to want my advice. They were keen to, shall we say, um, take it in a new direction with a new artistic interpretation, and I felt a little bit sidelined, but nevertheless, II I was very proud of what had happened. Um, until we [00:53:00] saw the financial mess that they'd taken it into. And I was quite devastated about that because I offered to be very much, um uh, in confidence. Uh uh, an available source for the committee and the chair at any stage, Um, for them to call me or talk over things because most of the mistakes I thought they made, we'd we'd potentially made them or we'd got through them or something like that. And there is some wisdom [00:53:30] in history, I suppose. But, um, they they determined to take it the way they wanted to, and that created the financial loss, which I don't think can be attributed to any single person or anything like that. It was just just an unfortunate thing that happened. And, uh, I remember going to the creditors meeting And, um, there was a lot of goodwill and support from people, and even the creditors were upset this had happened. Uh, and they were very [00:54:00] supportive, and they would not, um, withdraw their support for the hero parade and festival the next year. And that was all in place again. And they held, I suppose, off their accounts. Um um And then the second year, outside of my chairmanship, I suppose, um was another huge financial loss. And, um, and and and so was the year after that. And I was just devastated at how hero, um which, [00:54:30] um Scott and I had developed to be this wonderful thing was just being driven down through the floor because the financial expertise and infrastructure, I suppose, or management I don't know what you'd call it. And I I can't blame anybody or anything because I didn't have the close hands on. Um but I do remember being very afraid for it. Uh, when I when I left and and little regard was given to my [00:55:00] suggestion around budgets and sponsorship and grants. And I can remember saying I am listed as the current financial director for the Project Limited. I'm now starting to insist that you have my name removed from the company's office on that which they did. And, um, and there was no shall we say legal obligation for me, but I just felt this terrible, terrible, um, sadness for where it had finished [00:55:30] up. Um, but again, um, I thought, Well, um, you know, things move on. It was the only time in my life I actually got a counselling session for for the for for, uh, seeing that the demise of hero and And there were some wonderful people in the community who came out to try and resurrect and support it. And I remember there were Jay Benny was involved in in, uh, organising things and and Michael Bancroft and [00:56:00] lots of good people with lots of good will. Um, but it just never, ever quite got back to where it, uh, had had where we'd taken it. And, um, by this stage, I was, um, volunteering my time across at body positive. Um, it was about this was around 4001. I was given a royal honour for all my work with, um, with, um, work in the community um and, [00:56:30] um, And thought I should do something more, um, to help. So I got more involved with body positive at that stage, and we were in an office much the size of this, which is probably about 12 ft by 12 ft. I suppose, um, that was the total size of the body positive office with one other volunteer, Uh, and myself, a man called Jack. Dr. And I used to come in daily. Um and, um, just man [00:57:00] the phones and be there for anybody who wanted support or some assistance. And we did this for a while, and I thought, you know, the number of people living with HIV now is growing. Um, still, people are getting really sick. Um, and still, but we have medication, but the medication is not easy. And there's still a huge amount of discrimination and stigma around this thing. So this is where [00:57:30] I could invest my time in giving to the community. So I moved in. Shall we say more into a professional role within body positive. And I was very happy to, um, be the chairman for a few years. Um and then when I thought, well, I need some remuneration if I'm going to do this full time. So took on a position of chief executive officer and and asked the got, um, [00:58:00] a new board and new chairman, uh, so that we could separate governance from management and then, um, then work to build body positive to to where it is today. And, um uh, I am delighted with with the result, but again, it's, um, one of these things that needs to be managed very carefully because it's financial stability and infrastructure is is always precarious. We have a we finally have a [00:58:30] A contract with the Ministry of Health, but it's not significant. And, um uh, but it is sustainable and allows this organisation to operate and rise to meet the challenges that HIV presents to us these days. And I'm delighted to say that with the development that science has given us through antiretroviral medication, I'm expected now to live a fairly natural life and consider [00:59:00] other factors than co morbidities that might impact on my long term health. Besides, as well as the HIV, in fact, it's more those other comorbidities of diabetes or cardiovascular concerns that will probably take me away more so than anything to do with HIV. So I guess in in summing up, in a sense, I like to think I was here before AIDS, and and And I hope that I'm here pretty much towards the end of the terrible [00:59:30] threat that, um, one it presented with to us and, uh and and and challenged us as as a community. And certainly, um So I suppose from my perspective, and it's very much a personal reflection saw the amazing sacrifice that people gave with their lives around, uh, dying from AIDS. So now we're we're we have, shall we say, um, a scientific [01:00:00] answer for for medication to keep well and alive. But of course, our community has evolved and people don't come to body positive these days with just HIV. They come with HIV and other coinfections like hepatitis or TB Or, um, sad to say, a reflection on our community is with the addictions of alcohol and other recreational drugs and even legal drugs. Now, some people are addicted to and, um, more than that, of course, mental health issues is [01:00:30] a growing concern within our community. So I think if there's been any contribution I suppose, Um uh, in terms of the AIDS and, um, gay revolution that New Zealand has experienced, it's perhaps been able to provide a a better place for, um, people to come. And that was manifestly delivered to me with my own grand nephew, um, inviting me to his 21st [01:01:00] birthday party in which he said I'd meet his, um, his boyfriend and, uh, and that that was a delight. And and he didn't know any of the history of it. And I thought, Why should he? Um he should be able to just simply enjoy his life in a, uh in a in a, uh, discrimination free society. Because he happens to choose, uh, another human being for his lover, which doesn't quite fit the old historic Anglican. Or [01:01:30] I say, Anglicans. We've brought up strict Anglicans, uh, in in that model you were mentioning a while ago about, um, the whole idea of stigma and discrimination. And I'm wondering, can you talk to me about how you kind of broached the subject of, um, talking about your own diagnosis with with people in New Zealand and then looking forward over the next? You know, 25 years as to if stigma and discrimination [01:02:00] has changed any well, Yeah, I'm sorry to say I. I don't notice a great perceivable difference between what people are experiencing today as to what they did, uh, back then. And I guess the root cause of stigma and discrimination is ignorance and and fear. And you measure those two together and and of course, that's what's happened. Um, it is, uh it is still the very last hurdle in which we have to combat. Um, [01:02:30] and we've seen some wonderful examples in New Zealand, where to combat stigma around mental health. It's been some great television campaigns, but certainly in terms of, uh, HIV and AIDS, there's still a lot of stigma and discrimination. And whilst we deal with a lot of the overt, uh uh, discrimination at body positive in literal actions by employers or landlords or whatever, Um, there [01:03:00] is still an incredible internalised amount of stigma, uh, where people have always associated any sexual health issue as, um as a result of sleazy or inappropriate behaviour, or or less than equal to any other health condition of warranting attention or or support. Um, and and those attitudes we still find literally, um, relevant to the work we do today. Um, and they all [01:03:30] contribute to making people feel less equal or or or less, um, able to. And they erode people's self esteem, uh, and and their health. And, uh, I think that, uh, those are some of the issues we need to do today because our counselling services are very much called upon as as as those wonderful counsellors at the AIDS Foundation, uh, for people who are shall we say through, shall we say, years of of, [01:04:00] uh, being, um um lead to believe that they are are less than equal. And I felt, um, in my whole life, I guess, um, I've always had a sense of social justice around fair play and being, I guess, um, the victim. I suppose I don't like that term victim, but certainly being the recipient of some of that, um, unfavourable [01:04:30] behaviour because I just happen to be homosexual or happened to be living with HIV. Um I think is unfair and wasn't prepared to just simply lie down and let it roll over me. Hm. Then how did you How did you come to terms with actually being able to talk about your own diagnosis. Well, that was very hard. Um, because I thought again that it was only people who were irresponsible [01:05:00] and, uh, who, you know, brought this upon themselves that got this thing. And suddenly here I am, uh, living with it myself. And of course, I went through all the machinations of anger and emotion and, uh, unfairness, et cetera, And why me? Um and I can remember the very first thing when I decided that I'd wallowed himself pretty long enough, which must have been a day or two to [01:05:30] talk to somebody about it. And the only person I wanted to talk to was another person living with HIV. And that was the the guy. I think he was the current chairman of body positive at that time. And, um, Mark and I can remember talking to him and thinking this is the most powerful thing I've ever experienced. And of course, it's all about peer support and knowing that you're not alone and that there are others out there who simply, um, have walked this journey before [01:06:00] you and are happy to share their experience and their support and their wisdom with you so that you can discover you're not alone And that, um um there is more to it than what you perhaps or perceive you're facing Just at that moment. One thing we haven't touched on is, um, over that period of time from the late eighties, there have been well, actually, from the early eighties as well. There have been a number of ways that people have remembered, uh, people [01:06:30] you know either through the candle memorials or the circle of friends. Can you tell me about some of those things that you've been involved in? Yeah, Well, I must say, um, the the things that we have done, of course, is when we've seen people go, Um, the first you often knew about it was a black bordered advertisement type notice in the gay media. And, um and sometimes it was accompanied by a photograph, and and it sort of hit you, [01:07:00] Uh, very starkly because we still today do not associate death with young people. We associate it with, um, uh, old people, or at worst, uh, some catastrophic event, like a car crash, et cetera. But to see so many young people and people that you may have seen, you know, remembered in a dance party or a club or a bar or casually on the street or somebody you may have even had sex with, et cetera. So seeing those, um, [01:07:30] uh, people go was was horrible. And of course, we seem to be going to a funeral almost on a weekly basis, um, to say farewell to people, and, um, And then in the very early days, they decided that there needs to be some memorial type of service in which we can come together as a community, and and, um, again, the AIDS Foundation led this process with, um, the candlelight memorial. And I can remember being on the top. I think [01:08:00] it was Mount Eden and having people carry, um, torches and candles. And, uh, they were such powerful spiritual moments together, um, that they were quite amazing. And perhaps this is year has gone by now, but once a year, we do. In fact, on the third Sunday of every May we come together to, um, have candlelight memorial service. [01:08:30] Um, in every major city we can that find somebody to host it for us throughout New Zealand in fact, it's celebrated around the world. Um, and it's identified very much for those that we've lost to HIV and AIDS and in New Zealand here and now, in 2013, we've lost just under 700 people to to who have died with HIV or AIDS. Um, Worldwide over 30 million, of course. And, [01:09:00] um and I'm not ashamed at all to say that we, um we recognise those people, and, uh, and and they always bring out very deep personal feelings. Anyway, um, and I think of my sweet angels who have died from AIDS, uh, that were close to me and I. I would like to see, um, some tangible memorial recognition of that. And Jonathan Smith, Um, and his, um partner Kevin Baker, together with, [01:09:30] um Todd Andrews and his then partner, um started the circle of friends and I can remember being elected to the Western Bays Community Board, which is part of the Auckland City Council, and having a a deputation come in front of us asking us to allow this, um, small group of, uh, gay or gay friendly people established into council property in Western Springs. In fact, this circle [01:10:00] of friends, which was to one of those who'd gone been lost to HIV and AIDS and, of course, was absolutely delighted to be part of the approving body for that and to see to see that come about. And and today I'm in fact a, um one of the trustees with, uh Scott Johnston, Kevin Baker, and, uh, and Jonathan Smith for the Circle of Friends. And once a year or or twice, we engrave those names into [01:10:30] the circle of friends those who wish to be, um, remembered, and those who would like to have their name associated and support It doesn't necessarily have to be the, um, name of a dead person living people as well. My name's there, and I hope I'm still well and alive. Um, uh are still part of it. And, um uh, we have a a small service there to remember those whose names were engraving if they have passed on and to celebrate their lives [01:11:00] and to honour those who want to show their support. So it's it's it's really an important part, um, that we do that So candlelight memorial and the circle of friends are two very real tangible ways in which we can shall we say honour. And I think those will go for many, many years yet I, I really do. We also have World AIDS Day and, um that's the first of December every year. And in New Zealand we identify much with a street collection on [01:11:30] the Friday preceding World AIDS Day and that street collection, the proceeds all go towards, um, uh, the support of people living with HIV and AIDS. And currently those proceeds are split 50 50 between the New Zealand AIDS Foundation and body positive. And it is a joint venture, the street collection, one in which we can, shall we say, come together to raise as much as we can to use that money in a way that will support those people living with HIV [01:12:00] in areas that they need. The support reflecting back. Are there people in New Zealand or maybe not in New Zealand? But are there people that you would like to pay tribute to, as as pioneers in this? Absolutely. I would like to acknowledge Kate Leslie, um, the first chairperson of the AIDS Foundation. I'd like to acknowledge her to, um uh and her board members, my good friend Helen Ivory, of course, [01:12:30] and and, um, and other members of the board at the time. But then also those who worked very much at the coal face, Uh, Ray Taylor, an amazing character who's still very much involved in contributing in his way. Tony Hughes, who's now a full time professional science officer at the AIDS Foundation. Uh, are the two people I most knew who were identified with the AIDS Foundation and their voluntary capacity in the first stages on that But [01:13:00] so many who have come and gone, um, who've made a contribution? Um, uh, in in any which way that they could, um, they just are too many to to remember personally or individually, um, in that regard, but, yeah, some amazing people. Um, and I've been very, very, very privileged to, um, be blessed with with some of their memories. What do you think will happen [01:13:30] with with HIV and AIDS in the future? Where do you think it will go? I hope it goes the same way that, um uh, that we've dealt with, say, syphilis or or cancer in that, uh, I hope that we further develop great treatments and ultimately vaccines and cures for this thing, Um, and that it will just simply become another another health hazard that we need to be conscious [01:14:00] and aware of and know how to avoid but certainly know that when we do have it, that we can treat it and ultimately cure it. Um, but I think that the education around, um, HIV and AIDS still needs to be maintained, as it will need to be maintained around any other, uh, health issue. Hepatitis is a growing concern. Anal cancer for gay positive men is another frightening prospect. [01:14:30] So seeing the normalisation of it and seeing it being dealt for what it is is just another health, a human health issue to be dealt with and that, uh, that's a bad enough or enough to cope with without the hysteria of discrimination and stigma that, um, I hope will ultimately be dealt with and move away from it.

IRN: 727
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089539
TITLE: The Womens Bookshop
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VOICES: Carole Beu
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Big Gay Out (Auckland); Broadsheet (magazine); Carole Beu; Elizabeth Smither; Ladies Litera-tea; Pat Rosier; Pride; The Women's Bookshop; Tilly Lloyd; books; community; cooking; counselling; family; feminism; identity; reading; volunteer; women; writing
DATE: 8 June 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: The Women's Bookshop, 105 Ponsonby Road, Ponsonby, Auckland
CONTEXT: In this podcast Carole Beu talks about establishing The Women's Bookshop - an independent bookshop which opened in Auckland in 1989.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, I'm Carol and I've been running this bookshop now for nearly 25 years. Next year will be 25 years. I was a teacher. I had no business experience whatsoever. And people in the business community find that totally amazing. Um, I have been told many times that I was brave and that I took a risk, and I just laugh. I was not brave. And I had absolutely no idea I was taking a risk because I knew so little about business. I didn't know that there are statistics that demonstrate [00:00:30] that something like the 1st 3rd, a a third of all new small businesses fail in the first three years, possibly more than a third these days. I would think I had no understanding of any of that. I do think I had all sorts of skills, um, that I wouldn't have recognised or put labels on, But I was a mother and I had a disabled child, so I had been a, um, caring for a disabled child as well. An intellectually disabled [00:01:00] child as well as a gorgeous, normal daughter. And, um, they're still very much in my life. Um, but also I was a secondary school teacher of English and drama. I mean, I was used to books. I knew about books, but I was also a drama teacher, which took, I guess, um, quite a lot of, um and prompt you stuff in a way. You take a risk. You take risks when you're a drama teacher. But I wouldn't maybe have recognised that or related that to to business. Um, but I was used to organising teenagers large large groups of teenagers. [00:01:30] In those days, they changed. There were seven periods in a day. You change seven times a day. You rotated these vast groups and sometimes more than 30 teenagers. That takes a lot of skill that I think teachers get no credit for, um so And I had good interpersonal skills and so on and good communication skills. And I would never have labelled those or, you know, and I suspect they send people on business courses to learn those skills. These days, um, I was persuaded to to start the bookshop by [00:02:00] a friend called Pat Rosie, who was then the editor of Broadsheet magazine and Broad magazine had a a premise in Dominion Road with a little shop front, and they actually needed an office space. They didn't have enough money to buy any books to have this tiny wee bookshop in the front. So Pat sort of said to me, What we need is someone to take over this premise and run it as a proper women's bookshop and we'll get an office space somewhere else. And she kept on at me and kept on at me. Another friend came with me, a friend called Chris McLean and actually [00:02:30] came with me to, um, the bank, and she knew what a cash flow forecast was. I didn't have a clue and couldn't have produced one, but we talked to the bank manager about getting a loan and that sort of thing, and by the time I also then travelled around the country. But I got to meet some of the women doing the same thing, and they're not doing it anymore. There was um, the Kate Shepherd Women's Bookshop in Christchurch was still there, and a woman's place in Wellington was still there, and some wonderful lesbian women like Pleasant Hanson and had been involved [00:03:00] in that. And Tilly Lloyd, I think, from Unity Books in Wellington had been involved in that at one stage. There were also wonderful women in the publishing industry, and they still are. I mean, the two current M DS of, um, Random House, New Zealand and the Penguin Books are both women, Karen Ferns and Margaret Thompson. Um, I went, you know, in those days to talk to She was at that stage, the marketing manager at Penguin Book. She gave me huge expertise. Helen Benton was working with her partner, Bob Ross. Um, they were running Benton Ross. [00:03:30] It was called. Then they became tandem press. Later, Um, so there were lots of women with huge experience, both on the publishing and the bookselling side of the industry. And they shared their knowledge with me, and I became convinced I could have a go at it. I mean, Helen Benton literally held my hand and took me around their warehouse and said, You need one of this and three of that and so on. Help me choose the opening stock. But I also had a sense, and I could go back to teaching if if I had to. I could always earn my living as a teacher. So [00:04:00] that removed another element of risk. Really? What was it like getting finance for such a specific bookshop? Well, and I didn't actually get very much. I scrimped and saved. And, um, a very kind woman who has to remain an honour because she doesn't ever want me to disclose lent me 10, 10, 12, maybe $12,000. I think it was. And I paid her back amazingly rapidly. Um, the bank gave me probably 20,000, I think. And I think they matched 20,000 [00:04:30] because I'd cobbled together with the 12 from this friend and various money I'd cobbled together 20,000. So I probably opened it with $40,000 which is a joke these days. And I do remember, um, Tony, who was then the managing director of Harper Collins, saying to me, How on earth are you going to buy any stock with such a little amount of money? He was astonished. So I had very little stop to start with. And I still remember the shock of the next day after the opening night, looking around my shelves and thinking I've sold so many things, I'm gonna have to reorder. I'm gonna have to [00:05:00] pay for what I've sold and reorder some more. So I was very green when I started off, and it just developed slowly. And I learned by doing the one other important factor is the support of women that has enabled me to do it. One other important factor. My very well, one of my two closest friends, Glenn Lori um, was at that stage a teacher, and she had time off on full salary to, um, do study physics at university. She was a, um, a science teacher, [00:05:30] chemistry and biology. But she needed, um to upskill on her on her physics area. And, um, she was giving the physics department at Auckland University a bit of a shake up at the time, I think. But she had no lectures and no teaching or anything on a Friday. So she worked because I was on my own that whole first year she worked for me for free every Friday for the whole first year and when the bookshop was in Dominion Road. So, you know, I had enormous support and help from women. Why, specifically, a woman's bookshop? [00:06:00] Well, it grew out of the feminist movement of the seventies, and there were feminist bookshops all around the world. Um, the most famous one of which probably was, um, the one in London. Um oh, what's it called? I have to remember what it's called, the one that one that was in London. It it survived for a long time. And then it was taken under the wing of Foyle Bookshop and it survived in falls as a sort of corner of falls for a while, and then it then it died out. Now I'm gonna have to come back to you with the the name [00:06:30] of it. It will. It will leap into my mind. There was another one called sister right in Islington. But that closed ago, Um, there were a few in Australia. There were a lot in Germany, and there still are women, women's bookshops in Germany and quite a few in the States. Although the most on more many of the independent bookshops closed down in the states, Um, including the alternative gay and lesbian ones and the the feminist ones. Um, it was an ex in a way of the feminist publishing movement, which arose because, [00:07:00] um, women's writing was not getting published was not being taken seriously. That changed gradually over the next you know, two decades, I guess. You know, through the eighties and nineties, as the big major publishers came to understand that something like 70% of book buyers are women. There are statistics to show to demonstrate that, um and that in fact, there was money to be made out of women's books. And so they took over, and gradually [00:07:30] the feminist presses disappeared. I mean, the women's press, even in London, has now gone. It took well into the two thousands to go, but it has gone, um, was still there. But most of the women's presses were There was a press in New Zealand that Wendy Harris called new women's press. Um so it was based on the women's press in London, in a way. But it was new women's press, and she published a lot of feminist writing by New Zealand women that major mainstream publishers wouldn't publish. Um, [00:08:00] so it grew out of that really somewhere to then sell the books that the feminist publishers were publishing. And in the in the well, I didn't open until 1989. But in the nineties I mean, it was the tail end of that movement, Really. In the nineties, we did still have a very strong feminist section that then, in the late nineties and early two thousands, I think waned. And it's coming back now. Our feminist section is now expanding. There's a whole new, you know, a lot of feminist writing happening out there. [00:08:30] So it's interesting. I mean, we we did a lot of, um, women's spirituality and and witchcraft and Goddess and that sort of stuff in in that first decade in in Dominion Road, because we moved to Ponsonby in what 19? 90 must have been. No, What are we doing? 2000. We moved here in two years. So I opened in 89 and moved. We were there for basically 10 years. From the end of 1999. I moved here. So because I remember now we had the the millennia happen. Not long after, we'd [00:09:00] moved to to Ponsonby Road. Yes, but in that things changed what became sort of fashionable. And we have a very small women's spirituality section now a bigger Buddhist section and, um, a big mind, A big area of books on mindfulness. So it's interesting how fashions and people's interests change as the years go by. Take me back to, um, that opening night of of the bookstore. What was that like? It was fun. We had I mean, [00:09:30] lots of friends came. It was a bit like a party, Really. But they bought books, and I think I didn't quite expect them to buy books. Yeah, um I mean, Pat, Rosie obviously was there, and some of those friends who helped me get sorted and some of the women from publishing and so on they were all there. So it was a bit of a party. Um and I mean, I think I opened at, you know, six o'clock one night or something. I can't remember the timing now, but I know it was in the evening and we we had a party, but and I was just surprised that people deliberately, I think, to to give me support, bought books while they were there. Yeah, what a shock. [00:10:00] I was actually in business. You know, II, I guess one of the big things with bookshops is actually, um, stocking them and and knowing what books kind of sell and work. How did you How did you work that out? Well, I've got a really good instinct for it. Um, and I've got good staff now who help me. Who? Who've helped me widen a wee bit? Um, a very experienced staff. Um, I don't know. You just know. Um I mean, we focus particularly on certain [00:10:30] areas and obviously gay and lesbian, I think my gay section is probably not as good as it should be. And I probably need a good gay male advisor for that section. Um, there's limited stuff available that's good in the lesbian area. And I'm I mean, um, reps when they come around, publishers reps would always alert me to a book that had gay or lesbian content. Um, there's a lot of of what I would call Mills and Boon type, um, lesbian novels that I order, um, a range of but often only ones and twos. So I've got [00:11:00] the range, but I mean and and women buy them because they're fun. But we have other big areas, like childbirth and parenting, And excuse me, that becomes it. It it's fairly obvious I midwives will tell me which are the good books often, and there are one or two. I don't stop because midwives don't like them. Don't recommend them. Um, there a huge range of really good parenting books? Um, the biggest range apart from literary fiction, the biggest range is the counselling and therapy area and that I didn't set out [00:11:30] to to stop that at all. It was a thing that evolved over the years. Um, and I've been given advice about how to choose the books from that by the counsellors and therapists. It started off I had a personal development section, and so many of the counsellors and therapists are women. And they would come in and say, Can you get me this book by so and so? And I would gradually learn that so and so was a significant and often men, the writers, a significant, um, writer in the in the therapy field. And I would start bringing in their books, and it just snowballed. [00:12:00] It grew and grew, and people gave me more advice. Oh, you've got so and so can you get this one as well? And and it just grew. So the customers advised me. Really? Um and now a lot of male therapists and counsellors come in as well and send their their clients here as well and say, Well, look, the women's bookshop will have it. Or if they haven't got it, they'll be very good at getting it for you because we now have a really good reputation for sourcing books and getting special orders for people. Um, so I learned about the therapy section from the [00:12:30] from, um um, the the the client, the customers and and also the professionals in the field. Um, the cookbook section just grew because they sell. So you learn what sells and you reduce what doesn't sell, and you increase what does sell. We sell a a big range of high end cookbooks, beautiful, beautiful, fabulous cook books and and you know women can't resist them sometimes. So we sell those the literary fiction which we sell. And I mean, I have a line where there are writers who [00:13:00] are below the line, and I don't stop them. And it's not just me being a snob. They actually don't sell because our customers read the sort of things I read. I read fiction avidly, and I recommend it and my customers trust what I say about a book. So I put little, little handwritten notes on the books I've read, and I would never say a book was good if it wasn't If I say it's fabulous and I loved it, then it's true and other people usually agree with me. Um, we do stock a lot of the high end fiction by men as well. You know, um, Ian, [00:13:30] M and Sebastian fools and so on but predominantly women. So what we're trying to promote is women. And I do that quite deliberately because I still believe, even though we're now, you know, 2013 that there are. There are basic cultural assumptions out there that are very underlying, and and people often don't recognise them at a conscious level that what men say is more important that what men write is taken [00:14:00] more seriously. I mean, one of the reasons that the women's fiction prize, as it's now called, it's been the Orange Prize. For more than a decade, Um, and Orange have, um, which is a communications company are not sponsoring anymore. So it's just become the women's fiction prize. The reason that was set up was because some of the literary women in Britain did a really detailed investigation of the Booker Prize, and they found that it really did favour men. I mean, occasionally a woman won it, but really, um, there's, uh, an elimination [00:14:30] process at the very beginning and that publishers are limited in the number of books they're allowed to submit for the Booker Prize. And they were submitting their men. So some of the good women didn't even get submitted to start with. But if they did get submitted, they usually didn't win it. And so they set up the Orange Prize, which became, then very controversial because at the time it was worth more. It's still worth £30,000 which has been donated anonymously, and that at that point was worth more than the Booker Prize was worth. So it was very controversial because men weren't eligible for it, of course. But [00:15:00] it was. That was a deliberate, proactive policy to to get women's writing recognised. And, of course, it's just been announced this year. One. It had the biggest short list and, well, not the biggest, the the most prestigious shortlist this year that it's ever had the six finalists were, um, Hillary Mantel. You know, who's just won the Booker Prize? Barbara King Sova, Um, Kate Atkinson and, um a couple of others not so well known, But, um AM Holmes, an American writer [00:15:30] who I feel I haven't done justice to. And I'm going to go back and read some of her backlist because I love the one that won. It's called May We Be Forgiven. It's the most incredible black satire about American society. It's hilarious, but very dark and brilliant. I loved it, and I was thrilled that it won and that it's actually beaten all those big names like, you know, King Solver and Atkinson and, um and Hillary Mantel. So it's and it really does have the effect of promoting women's writing because it's very prestigious. Now it has the same sort of [00:16:00] almost as high a status as the Booker. I'm going off on all sorts of tangents. Talk to me about the space, and I'm wondering, Are there things that you do in this space that make it, um, a women's space? Well, I don't know whether I can quite identify it, but, um, because it's a very small space. And every now and again we we sort of my staff and I roll our eyes and say, Oh, we need a bigger shop. We haven't got enough room, [00:16:30] But one of the effects of having a small space is that it is crammed full and interesting and inviting and enticing. Really, Um, we sometimes feel we can't display things you know well enough because there just isn't enough space to have enough things face out and often spine out and so on. Um, but people do say it's a lovely space and that it feels safe now. I don't quite know how we achieve that. Um, [00:17:00] one of my old drama colleagues from the drama Teaching Days said, Um, well, you're a drama teacher in your bookshop, Really, you you create the space and you invite the participants in. You know, um, I don't know what it is about it, but people do love it. They and and the fact that it's called the Women's Bookshop is interesting. I mean, in some ways, in this day and age, it's an anachronism, and I in some ways I'd love to call it the People's Bookshop because men are welcome and lots of men come. But [00:17:30] I could never do that because it's this huge following of women for whom it is the women's bookshop. And the fact that it is labelled the women's Bookshop makes it a safe space because there are very few places on the face of the Earth that men have to sort of maybe hesitate before they come in. Um, and most men don't. But occasionally a man will stand at the door and say, quite seriously and respectfully, Is it OK if I come in? And I say Thank you for asking? You're most welcome, you know, because the world is, you know, accessible to all men. [00:18:00] It's not necessarily to women. And so the fact that it's labelled a women's space does make it a safe space, and a lot of women meet up here. They say, Oh, meet you at the Women's Bookshop. It's just yeah, and people who come in with problems like women will come here and they'll just be looking and they'll start. They'll ask us a question or two. And sometimes coming to look for a book on relationships, for example, is their first, um, their first step towards dealing with some problem in their life. And so sometimes [00:18:30] you find yourself in a listening role and, uh, in an encouraging role. Well, I wouldn't ever go as far as saying a counselling role because, you know, none of us are trained for that. But we've learned to listen to people and, um, and just guide them. Sometimes occasionally there'll be a woman who come in and wander around the shop and gradually make her way towards the lesbian section. And to actually stand in front of the lesbian section takes quite a lot of courage. So I often will wander over and just quietly in a very unobtrusive way, identify and and make it known [00:19:00] to her without being too obvious that, you know, I'm a lesbian, and it's OK to be here and to be standing here and, you know, yeah. Um, so, yeah, women do feel safe here. Um, and I don't quite know how we've managed that, really, But we certainly have talk to me about some of the the kind of community aspects of of the bookstore. Well, we do. We sell heaps of tickets, and at times it drives us totally crazy. particularly at the time of, um of [00:19:30] hero or it's not hero anymore. What was it called this year? The Pride Pride Pride Festival? Because we ended up with so many tickets that got, you know, got slightly out of hand. Really? But, um, but we do that as a free community service. We don't take a cut on the tickets. We just do it. Um, you know, Sissy Rock runs a runs a women's dance out in West Auckland several times a year. We always sell the tickets for her dance because, um, women who don't live out there who live more central and want to go to the dance can just pop in and buy their tickets. Here, we sell [00:20:00] tickets for the lesbian ball every year. Um, we sell tickets for some, um, gay male events. Um, certainly, in the, uh, the all the gals concerts, for example, we sell tickets for, um the the only complication with it is people have to pay us cash because we can't actually put it through our through our and and um system and so on, because if it goes into our bank account, you get into GST issues and all sorts of things. So we just say we'll do it for cash, and the person we're doing it for has to come regularly and take the cash away, which they do. [00:20:30] Um, it just got a bit confusing. Was it during the pride parade? Because we had so many tickets. I was saying, Now, which one is that? 00, right. And it was sort of taking up our time when we should have really been selling books to customers, but yeah, but I'm happy to do it. I mean, we're a public space that gay and lesbian people can come into and and buy tickets. So that's I will continue to do that. Yeah. What? What impact does something like the Pride festival have on on on your sales here? Oh, none, really. I mean, not very little. Um, [00:21:00] I do always take a bookstore to the big day out, and I do actually sell quite a few books in the park. I always think it's so funny selling books in the park, but, um, but it's worth going. I mean, more than covers my costs. Um, people who come in to buy tickets, buy tickets and leave again. They don't They don't buy books with some of them might occasionally, but it doesn't have a huge impact at all. It is merely a community service, and I think, well, it's a good thing that I can do. I mean, I believe very strongly and running an ethical business. [00:21:30] And I think that what what you do comes back to you in all sorts of different ways. So, um and I mean, that works, though. One of the questions you talked about earlier was the the Volunteers. I mean, we have a lot of women who volunteer to help us, Um, and that's part of that whole community thing as well. Um, we don't do the newsletters as often. We used to do a book choice newsletter really regularly, but it's got so expensive and postage is so expensive that we're doing far more E newsletters [00:22:00] now, which don't require volunteers to help us. But over the years we've had dozens of women who come and we I serve pizza at sort of seven o'clock and Johnny's wonderful pizza from, and I mean we have a glass of wine and we move the move the shelves back in the middle and set big tables out. And we all have a dozen women all sitting around with a glass of wine, all stuffing newsletters into envelopes. Then when we all get hungry, I go and get pizza and we all stop and have pizza. And the conversation is good and the job is boring. But it gets done, and they're very happy to do it. [00:22:30] You mentioned just before about, um, being an ethical retailer. What does being ethical mean to you? Um, being fair, I guess. And, um, not ever, ever doing any business practises that might be the slightest bit, um, at all. Um Oh, it's hard to Yeah, um, I guess I just try and live an ethical life and and, um, and run an ethical business. [00:23:00] And it's hard to explain what I mean by that. Really, Um, like for, for example, we're all we try to all be equal with the staff, like, obviously, I'm the boss, and in the end, it's it's my money and so on, but, um, but we consult with each other. We make we make group decisions. Um, we we're tiny, and we're, you know, the the most. It will be three people involved in making a decision. But, um, the staff are totally involved in the operating of the shop. And, um, [00:23:30] I would always totally trust them to make good decisions and, you know, do the right thing. They'll they'll arrange things in the shop and they'll, um, yeah, and they'll I. I do the buying, but I'll often ask advice from them. I'll consult, particularly with Children and teenage books. I'll say to Tanya. Oh, have you heard of this? Or do you think we should have this or not? And she'll get involved in the in the buying of things when reps come, Um, so it's a sharing. Um, it's a trying to have, um, everyone have a, you know, a similar sort of status as far as you [00:24:00] can. I mean, ultimately, I'm still the boss, I guess. But, um, and and that works for the volunteers as well. I mean, there must be very few businesses where, um, volunteers come in and help us. I mean, we don't do the newsletter anymore, as I say, or we do a very occasional newsletter now, but women still help us run big events like we've got two big events coming up later in the year that we we used to do one every year. We now do two because they're so popular, called ladies literati the afternoon teas with, um, with a whole lot of New Zealand women writers. I'll maybe tell you more [00:24:30] about that. When I finish this point, we have to run that to to serve afternoon tea to 300 people and run the whole event with the big book store out the front and and, um A you know, a large number of authors, a dozen or more authors at a signing table in the in the interval and so on. You need a team of people. And so I have this large team of 10 or a dozen women who will come and just work for me for the whole day. A whole Sunday, um, as volunteers and, um, I give them a book voucher or something to thank them. But they do it because they love [00:25:00] it. And and I I couldn't do a lot of the activities I do without the sort of team of women around me who who are just a fantastic support person, a support group, and they do it because they love it, and they obviously get something out of it, too. But, um, but it's to do with sharing and being fair and involving people. And yeah, so I guess that's what I mean by ethical. They're a bit more about the ladies literati. They, um I mean, it was one of our, um, part time staff Sarah Moore, who came up with a title. [00:25:30] We were just, um, dreaming up this event and she said, It's on a Sunday afternoon afternoon tea. Oh, you have to call it a literati. So it became a lady's liar hyphen TE A, which is a delightful title, And it it is so popular. As soon as word goes out that tickets are on sale sells out. Um, we run them now at the, um Ray Friedman Art Centre at Epsom Girls and that theatre seats about, um, not quite 300. It's actually somewhere over 2 50 but with all [00:26:00] the volunteers and the writers and everyone, there's around about 300 women at the event. So, uh, we we serve, we have about a dozen writers and they all at the first half this half a dozen or so up on stage and I share it and they each get about 20 minutes and then we stop and I try and get a real mix. So we have fiction, poetry, nonfiction, cooking, the whole range range of things, depending the the criteria is you've got to have had a new book published that year. And it, I mean, they keep coming. There are so many new books being published by New Zealand women that are [00:26:30] wonderful. I have to select and drop people out. I can't fit everyone in. It's exciting. I mean, it's a problem, but it's a good problem to have um and so we we line them up for the first half and then we stop halfway through the afternoon and we have this magnificent afternoon tea set out in a a big room. It's actually a big rehearsal room and some girls next door. And we have all these lovely tables set up with nice nice cloths and three tiered cake stands on and the most amazing traditional afternoon tea. Um, things that Grandma would have made, you know, [00:27:00] um, lamingtons and tarts and melting moments and all those those things. And then when we've finished that, we go back into the theatre and have the other half of the women, and it's just fabulous. It sells out. We do two a year now. Well, the first one is the 25th of, um, Sunday afternoon, the 25th of August. And then there's another one on the third of November, and they sell out because they're, you know, it's a wonderful, exciting range of writers accompanied by fabulous food. Hm. [00:27:30] Um, we also do events in the bookshop. Um, and that's when I'm actually doing fewer of those because it's a lot of work and we have to take book shop to bits, basically, and I usually do the food for that. I've got very good at making my famous guacamole. Um, we joke. We say there there are some regulars who come to the bookshop events who come for the guacamole, not the author. But, um um, you know, cheese and and and, [00:28:00] um, you know, nice tapa sort of things and wine and juice. And the publishers usually help pay for that. I do fewer of them now, but, um, I do when? When people ask and and often, I mean, publishers ask me to include their authors in the ladies at, and publishers and authors will ask to have their book launched here. So, um, the only one we've done in the shop this year so far is, um, the launch of Elizabeth Smithers. New poetry book. Um, and she actually asked [00:28:30] if she comes from New Plymouth, and she asked if she could have it launched at the Women's Bookshop. So she's a wonderful writer. I admire her. So I was very honoured that she asked to hold it here. Um, we're doing another poetry event, um, in July and then, um um, other launches throughout the year. And we do have events when there's a new thing out. Sometimes a new book out, and it's very relevant to women. But I'm it's a lot of work, and I'm doing I'm being a bit more selective now about which ones I do. I think I've got to that stage where where [00:29:00] I can be selective and not just do everything that everybody wants because it's so much work. I think Oh, I'm getting old. I'm gonna slow down a bit. The other thing we do is take what I do. Really. It's usually me who goes is take books out to the to the public and you cannot. I think you cannot and and this is, you know, relates to the whole issue of of competition from, um, chain bookstores and from Internet booksellers. And [00:29:30] the whole the whole Internet thing that E readers and so on is that you cannot just sit in a bookshop and assume that people are gonna come to you. A. It has to be an active and exciting place to come to, which is why we still do the events in the shop. Um, but B, we take the books out, so I go particularly to, um, counselling and therapy conferences and other conferences. But it's the counsellors who invite me to come because they know I've got the best range of books and I will import books specifically for their conference, particularly books written by [00:30:00] the keynote speakers. So they're bringing over a very famous international, um, psychotherapist or or a particular type of therapist, and I will import, and it's a reasonable financial risk. Sometimes they sell a return, but usually it's too expensive to send books return books overseas, so I have to gauge the right number and import them in plenty of time for their conference. So I will like this year. I've actually had a really hectic year this year. In 2013, I went to Dunedin for the clinical Psychologist Conference [00:30:30] and imported a lot of Alan Carr's books for that because he was the keynote speaker there. Positive psychology is his one of his key books. Um, and then I went, I've been to the psychotherapist conference here in Auckland at the, um um, I've been to Wellington for the women's studies conference. I've been to Napier. I drove to Napier with a carload of books for the NZ AC conference. That's the Councillors Conference. And then in May we, of course, had the Auckland Writers Festival. Um, and we're involved in the bookstore for that. So it's been absolute hectic first [00:31:00] half of 2013, it's never usually that busy. It's like it felt like everything came at once but me taking the books out there and setting up a A really extensive bookstore is so worth it, particularly for the professionals, it's worth it. It enhances their conference, but it's and it's worth it financially for me. But it's it's so good for them. They see a range of books laid flat on tables that they ah, do you normally stock this and often I do. But it's been spying out on the shop, and, you know, they haven't had time [00:31:30] to spend looking in the shop. So works works always. How do you know your readers so well? How how do you pick the right books? Well, the keynote speaker ones are obvious, but I also I mean, I know that, um, for example, psychotherapists will be, um, much more targeted, whereas counsellors will read more widely and and read a whole range of things and will also buy books that that are relevant for their clients, not just from a professional point of view, but also from a client's [00:32:00] point of view. Um, I just Excuse me. I've just learned over the years I don't know how I know. I mean, they they advise me. They will often say, Make sure you bring so and so um yeah. Make make sure you bring Bruce Perry's books because one of the speakers is gonna recommend born for love, so I'll make sure I've got enough stock of that. Make sure you bring counselling and the law and ethics and practise so they sometimes the conference organisers sometimes advise me. Make sure I've got enough stock of of key books. Um, but [00:32:30] and the women's studies becomes obvious. I take my whole feminist section and and I take a range of of high end women's fiction and I. I took quite a lot of this one or two. Quite funny, wonderful comic sort of things about feminism and women's issues these days. I took those. You take a whole you gear it for the for the audience. We're just going back to to to kind of ethics for a minute. And I'm just wondering, are the books that you would not stock? Oh, yes. So that's a good point. Yes. Um, [00:33:00] there are gay male books. I wouldn't stop because I don't think they're appropriate in a women's bookshop, and they might be fine for men elsewhere, but I wouldn't have them here. Some of them more, um, visual books and some of the, you know, lending towards soft porn sort of books. I wouldn't stop. Also, with the women's one, there are one or two women's ones that sort of are tending towards soft porn. That I wouldn't I wouldn't stock either. And I can choose to stop that or not stock stock or not stop them. So to some extent, you're a gatekeeper. Um um, [00:33:30] but yeah, maybe you're more of a, um AAA selector of I mean I. I think that's why it's so important to have a whole range of small, independent bookshops where the passions of the individual owners are are there and and, you know, the focus is different. I mean, the focus at Unity books is much more on on writing by men because they're right in the middle of the city and they get a lot of of business men there in lunch hours and things. They know far more about male writers than I do. And I know far more about women writers [00:34:00] than they do, which is why we work together so well for the writers festival, I think, but, um, there have been, um I mean, there was a book about, um, women that some guy wrote, and I can't remember his name now that we got asked for the female something I I forget. But a man had written it, and it was it was a misogynist book. I mean, it was it was really antiwomen, and I just refused to stop it, and I would say, No, I don't stock it. There's another one we had, Um, we didn't have I refused to stock That was really popular [00:34:30] for a while, and it was about I can't remember his name Now. It was about a white woman who went and lived with Aboriginal people in Australia and wrote this book, and the Aboriginal people objected to it, and so I wouldn't stock it and people would ask and ask, and I would say, Well, um, I don't stock it because aboriginal people objected to their culture being interpreted through a white woman's eyes, you know? And yeah, so I do. I do make decisions about what? Not to stock, and I don't stop Dan Brown. [00:35:00] Why would I bother everyone at all? The big chains are are, um are, you know, slashing the price on them and having a price, war and competing. And I haven't been asked for him. That's really good, isn't it? I did in the end have to stop the 50 shades of grey we resisted to start with. And I was just It's total. Um what can I use a polite word for it, You know, total nonsense, really. But it was so popular that in the end I had to stock it. And [00:35:30] so we had a little phase of a few months where we sold all of the 50 shades of whatever, um, handover fist. And then it went out of fashion, and we don't stock it anymore. Interestingly, there's a wonderful feminist book now called 50 Shades of Feminism that had deliberately has a grey cover. And they've got 50 of the most famous feminist writers in the world to each write a very short piece about feminism now. And it's wonderful. It's funny and entertaining, and it's a brilliant take on that whole 50 shades of grey. Um, you know, cult [00:36:00] hit sort of phenomenon. But so sometimes I'm forced to take things that I would prefer not to. Yeah, because I'd be mad not to make money out of it. Basically, yeah. Can I just go back to working with Unity Books um on the Auckland Writers Festival because I think it's a wonderful example of cooperation between two businesses that could be seen as rivals. And I think it ties into the question of ethics and it ties into the whole sharing thing. Um, [00:36:30] the book, the Auckland Writers Festival, is a huge success, and I'm on the board of that festival. So I sat around Stephanie Johnson's kitchen table. You know, more than a decade ago where we discussed all the ideas with Peter Wells and others, and, um, and it's now this huge phenomenon. It's wonderful. It's so exciting. But the bookstore is ginormous. It's so big that it can't what's never been able to be managed by one shop. We've always done it between us, and we run. We actually operate a separate bookstore that is the Auckland [00:37:00] Writers Festival bookstore, and I do half the ordering, and Carol and Unity does half the ordering, and we we literally do half the work each and it's a It's a cooperative store that we run that where we work together and we have lots of meetings. Carol and I to um to decide how many books of each author we're going to get and how many events they're in and where, where the books have to go. So there's a huge logistical exercise in the quantity of books, but also where they're going to go because there are multiple venues, [00:37:30] the centre, but also the art gallery and restaurants and hotels and all sorts of places. Um, and that is a huge, huge undertaking, and we do it together cooperatively. And I think it's a marvellous example of of two businesses that could be competitive, actually working very cooperatively for the benefit of each other and the festival. And and we sold a lot of books at this festival. It was wonderful. You mentioned just earlier about, um, independent stores and also maybe the larger chain stores. Where [00:38:00] does something like the Women's Bookshop fit in with the other larger chain stores? Well, we're tiny, and we can't compete with them on, um, on the price discounting that they do so we compete with them on good service. Um, I think there's no doubt that the informed customers know that the small, independent bookshops, the good ones, have staff who actually read and who can help them choose books and and who provide good service and all [00:38:30] those things that in fact, in a big chain store you don't get. I mean, it's interesting that borders collapse not just in New Zealand, but internationally. There is no borders chain in the States now, I think, because so often they're just about they're a business operation. They're about making money. They're about the bottom line. They're not about anybody loving books that, um that that's their weak point. Really, the fact that we love books and we might be very tiny, but we we can, um, talk to people about the books we read. We can recommend I have book clubs, come to the shop in the evenings, and I will talk to them about all [00:39:00] the new fiction that I've read. And they will choose books for for their reading for the rest of the year. Um, and I can have it on our books for ages. Um, I do actually review a lot as well. That helps. I review on National radio and Catherine Ryan about once a once a month, and then I do a a TV programme with Lindsay Dawson. Let's talk on, um, face TV it used to be Triangle TV. It's now face TV and I do that once a week and those are live. Um uh you know, um, broadcasts [00:39:30] of me reviewing box live are available on our website and on on YouTube, obviously, and on our Facebook site. So there's me reviewing the box live, which is great. So I'm very good at talking about the books I've read and that that helps our customers. There would be very few staff in large change stores anywhere in the world who could do that. So it's one of our advantages. We also when goes to great lengths to find books for people that are obscure and difficult to get, and she will find them for them. So we take the time to find special orders for [00:40:00] people we've got into the whole technology thing as well, because, um I mean, I think we don't make any money out of it out of ebooks or out of selling E readers. But we sell Cobo E readers, and, um, the reality is people are gonna buy kindles. Every cobo that I sell is someone who hasn't bought a kindle, and that's a good thing because Kindle is linked to Amazon and Amazon really are the enemy. I went to the Frankfurt Book Fair last year and there was a two day international booksellers conference held within the Frankfurt Book Fair [00:40:30] that I was at. And there were all sorts of countries, you know, from Latvia to I mean, not just not just America and Australia and New Zealand and Canada and so on. But there were Russia and Latvia and all sorts of European countries, and so on. Large number of countries, um, wide range of countries represented there that at that international conference and one of the discussion topics was what is the biggest threat to your industry and with or to your independent book, the Independent Bookshops in your country and without fail? It was Amazon in every single country [00:41:00] in the world, even the countries where Amazon hasn't quite got there yet. They said they know Amazon is coming, and Amazon is the biggest threat. They're using books as lost leaders so they can sell gum, boots and anything else. Um, they're quite unethical in what they do. They encourage people, they reward people for going into bookshops, real bookshops with their smartphone taking a photograph of the of the, um, bar code on the back of the book and then ordering it through Amazon. And they get they they get a discount if they do that. So it it is a very unethical business practise. So, um, I am quite [00:41:30] public about my, um, opposition to Amazon and kindles are linked to Amazon. So I sell Cobos and say Cobos have and And you can just click on the Cobo button on the top left hand corner of our website go into 3 million titles, which is at least as many, if not more, than what Amazon have got. And they are an ethical company. And you can you can download, um, Cobo apps onto your, um Sony E Reader or your, um, iPad or whatever. And you've got access [00:42:00] to this vast, vast, um, library of books. You know, um, 3 million books that you can buy and they're a much more ethical company than than Amazon. I mean, I we're not gonna make any money out of ebooks, but I think we have to be up with the play. They are a reality. I don't think that um real books are going to disappear at all. But there's going to be different ways of accessing the material, and you're gonna either read it in a real book or you're going to read it on a little screen. So we have to be involved in that and provide that service [00:42:30] for our customers. We also have to be seen to be up with the play where we're you know, we're up there with the big boys on a very small scale. Why do you think, um, physical books won't disappear? Well, they might long term long after I'm dead. I don't know when there are enough generations of kids who've grown up only with screens, but, um, there are at the moment too many people who just love real books and who will do a compromise. I know a lot of people have got both, and they particularly love their E readers when they're travelling. I mean, it's perfect. You're sitting on a plane [00:43:00] and you've got, you know, 50 books on your on your, um, Cobo E reader or on your your iPad or whatever, and you don't have to carry any books with you. It's perfect. I will do the same. When I travel, I'll take a Cobo E reader with me, but actually in bed at night, reading a book. I want a real book and a lot of people love the feel and the smell of books and want to be able to just turn the page and mark where they were. Go back and find something and mark it with a pencil. And yeah, it's interesting. I mean, [00:43:30] eventually, who knows what will happen? I do think we're in the middle of a revolution. Um, it's a bit like the printing press, you know, But, um, yeah, it'll be way in the future when enough generations of kids have grown up only with screens, not with not with paper books, I think. And I got so used to screens that doesn't occur to them to read any other way. But that's a long way off still, and until then I mean, I'll be dead by then. I feel as I'll be a bookseller long enough before it all happens, and then I'll either have died behind the counter saying Hang on, hang on. I haven't finished [00:44:00] the chapter or not that I read in the shop, but, um, I don't have time, but, um, yeah, yeah. Do you find that, uh, a lot of people come into the store, browse, but then actually go and order somewhere else? I mean, is that I'm sure that happens. I'm sure that happens. They browse and they go and order from Amazon or whoever. Yeah, um, and they they sometimes don't understand that we're an online bookshop. They will say, if we haven't got it, they say, Oh, I'll get it online. And I said, But [00:44:30] we've got an online bookshop. We can get it as quickly for you as going online. We're online as well, and they don't quite understand. They think of online as being Amazon or somewhere. You know, Um and, um, I mean, all our books are online. We have a really good database, and we we're actually linked to on a system called Circle System that is developed in New Zealand for small, independent bookshops. And it's an excellent system because it's linked directly to Neil and book data, which is the international database of everything in print and English in the world [00:45:00] that most booksellers internationally use. It's linked to that So, uh, someone asked me for a book. I haven't got it. I go into Nielsen, I copy and paste the ISBN onto my system. Click a button and it pulls it over from Nielsen onto my database and puts it straight up onto my website with a picture of the cover. In most cases, a picture of the cover and a blurb about the book. And it's on my website. And so everything's online and you can order online from our website, and we do get a lot of orders every day. And so it's, [00:45:30] um, a small but important percentage of our business. Um, we will see. I mean, there's some you can see some yellow courier bags sitting down there. Now we use those yellow padded courier bags, and we will send out often a part of those every day all over New Zealand. And sometimes I have to take things down to the post office, too. There's international stuff as well. New Zealand books that overseas people can't get over there and so on. Um, are you finding a lot of international orders coming in for New Zealand? A. Few, Not not a huge amount, but Yeah, enough [00:46:00] Enough. That's, you know, it's another little tiny portion of our business. Yeah, uh, varies incredibly, but And the Internet orders vary incredibly, the online orders. Some days we'll have, you know, a dozen. Some days we'll have only two or three. It varies hugely, Um, but it's it's important, and it's a good service that we provide, and we can get things as quickly as not as cheaply as Amazon. I mean, I'm on the I. Well, I'm leaving now, but I have been on the board of Booksellers New Zealand for a long time, and [00:46:30] one of the issues that we booksellers New Zealand as an association and Lincoln go the the CEO there is fighting is the whole GST issue, and we're trying to get the government, and there is some movement on it. Get the government to start charging GST on small things that come into the country, because at the moment, it's an unfair playing field. If you order from Amazon, uh, they they're not. There's no GST on the book, so it's going to be cheaper than I can provide it, because I have to charge GST. So, um, once that playing field is IED out, and it will [00:47:00] take a few years, I think, to finally become law. But it will happen eventually that because the government is losing out on a huge amount of money by all the small things, not just books, but all sorts of stuff coming in, um, from overseas, with no GST on it. So it's quite a big, important political and economic issue that we're fighting as booksellers, New Zealand Association. Are there many independent booksellers still in New Zealand? Not as many as there were, but there are still some good ones, Um [00:47:30] in Wellington and Auckland, particularly, I think we have, I mean, unity Books in Wellington is is magnificent. The Auckland one is great, too, but the Wellington one, particularly just because it's so spacious. It's just fabulous. But there are good ones there. There's time out in Mount Eden. Um, there are lots of lots of good small ones. Um, prices in just closed down. I think. I think in smaller areas they're finding it more difficult. Um, and there aren't so many in Christchurch, obviously since the earthquake. But you've still got Scorpio [00:48:00] and and one or two good ones in Christchurch. So, um yeah, we're a bit thin on the ground, but I think the ones who are still there we're there because what we do, we do very well. And we're passionate about what we do. And if you're committed and the owner operator needs to be there and be involved and be hands on and passionate about what they're doing and be a reader, and then I think I think those ones survive. And where does your passion for books come from? Well, I was [00:48:30] an English teacher, I guess. Um, and and I did an English degree, obviously. And I and I taught drama. Um, I don't know. I've just as an adult always read. Um, I don't particularly remember that we had a lot of books in my household as a child. Um, but certainly, you know, I had masses of Children's books for my kids and and I now have this total joy of a two year old grandson who walks into my apartment now and says, uh, read books. Nana read books. Nana. It's the first thing, and he's mad [00:49:00] keen on books, and he's got to the point at two and a quarter where he can read some of the pages to me because they're so familiar now, particularly the ones with rhythm. He will. He will. I'll open the book and he will read me the first page. You know, it's wonderful. So he's a kid growing up with with real books? Not not eBooks. Um, I don't know. I've just read good fiction all my adult life. I guess, um And I think back, you know, that there's such good teenage fiction now. But when [00:49:30] I was a teacher of English all those years ago, 25 years ago, um, there was such a limited range of books. Now I think it would be wonderful to be an English teacher now and have these fabulous novels that you can you can teach to teenagers that are, um, just inspiring and at their level, their interest level, you know, really interesting, well written stuff. It's a huge, vast range of it out there. Um, Mandy ha is writing some of that some some good New Zealand writers who are writing really good issues [00:50:00] and interesting topics for for kids to discuss that those books weren't there when I was teaching English all those years ago, I used to search for them, but, um, I don't know. I guess I've I've always loved books. I'm wondering, can you talk a wee bit more about the relationship between, um, the bookshop and women writers in New Zealand? Right. But I, I do see one of my roles is to promote women writers, New Zealand women writers particularly. And they understand [00:50:30] that and appreciate it. I think, um, we have fantastic writers here if you think of of, um uh, Fiona Farrell and down in Banks Peninsula. And I mean the broken book is what? That where she was writing about travelling. And then the Christchurch earthquake happened. And she broke the text up with these poems all the way through about the earthquake that were stories that that earthquake survivors told her, um, and they they appear through. They break up the text like aftershocks. It's just [00:51:00] the most wonderful book. Fiona Farrell is a total gem. And then Fiona Kidman in Wellington. Wonderful writer. She's got another new novel coming out later this year about Jean Batton. Um uh Stephanie Johnson, who I think is often underrated, doesn't get as much publicity as she should. She's a marvellous writer. She wrote a historical New Zealand novel last year called The Open World, and this year has written this hilarious, wonderful novel called The Writing Class, which anybody writers listening to this should should buy because it's [00:51:30] a novel that works beautifully as a novel. But the main character is a tutor and who runs a writing class, and the novel teaches you how to write a novel wonderfully clever. So we we have a whole range of of, um, of novelists and nonfiction writers and poets and poets like the wonderful Paula Green. Um so I I do very much see my role as, um, giving the New Zealand writers a voice. I mean, through through the events that I run, having [00:52:00] launching their books in the shop or having them as taking part in the, um, in the ladies literati, Um, but also making sure that they have a good space in the shop, that I read their books and I'll write my comments on them and I will encourage people to buy them. I'm just about to read, um, the elusive language of ducks with an incredible title by Judith White. It's just arrived in store, and I It's my next book on my power to read so that I can talk to people about this new New Zealand book. So I make a point of reading the the the novels that [00:52:30] New Zealand women write and recommending them to people if I really like them. It's an important role that I play. I think How big is your pile of books? Oh, someone once described in my bedroom as a New York skyline pile teetering piles, um, and I. I never have enough bookshelves, but, um, and I and every now and again I have a slight sense of panic that there's so many books I can't ever read them all. And I it's not fair to the women I can't read. And I think so. You know, whether [00:53:00] I read them or not. It is not that important in the great scheme of things, but, um yeah, I. I don't read fast enough. I wish I could get through them faster, really. But, um, picking and choosing is sometimes difficult, but it But it gets dictated like I've got. Eleanor Katon is another wonderful, very young New Zealand writer. Her new novel, I've Got a Reading copy of Already. It's not coming out till later in the year, The luminary, but it's 800 pages. It's sitting by my bed, and I know I've still got quite a few weeks before it hits the shelves. So I've got time to read. There's 800 [00:53:30] pages, but I will read the elusive language of ducks by Judith White right now because it's just arrived in the bookshop and so that that dictates the order in which I read them. Um, I'll try and read stuff, you know that's coming imminently or has already arrived. And publishers give us lots of advanced reading copies of things because they know and they do that with a lot of the good independence. They know that if the good booksellers read them and like them and recommend them to customers, there's still that hand selling thing goes on, you know, [00:54:00] can't beat it. Do you think it's easier now for women in New Zealand to be published? It has been, but it's gonna get harder because there's this whole revolution going on with the publishers and they're moving to Australia. Um, Harper Collins have just announced they're actually going in July this year, Um, penguin and random, emerging internationally and becoming one company Penguins Warehouse is already in Australia, and it's quite likely, I mean, it's possible that Random Houses [00:54:30] warehouse will move there, too. McMillan moved there last year, and there's just a fear about what will happen to the publishing arms of those New Zealand publishers. Um, hopefully, there will still be editorial teams for Penguin and random still in New Zealand, but I fear that it might be actually harder. They're only going to be able to publish things that they're pretty sure are going to sell because it has to be commercially viable. So I'm not sure how how the future looks really for for New Zealand publishing in general, [00:55:00] not just women's books. I think we have to be careful. We have. We have a unique voice. We actually publish brilliant nonfiction stuff. If you look at the The Book Awards every year, the New Zealand Post Book Awards um, the fiction and poetry is fantastic, but there's a huge range of stunningly beautiful nonfiction books. We're very good at publishing, and we we need to preserve that Well, I wonder just in in kind of finishing off if, uh, you could tell me where you think the [00:55:30] women's bookshop is going or you know what? What? What is the future of the women's bookshop? Well, I do wonder if it has a long, long term future. I don't know. Um, someone once, um, a businessman once said that, um, you know, tiny businesses only only start to make money once they have at least a minimum of three shops. And so you need to get some other branches and have three shops. And in the discussion we were having another woman [00:56:00] said, But you can't clone Carol. So to some extent, it is a personality driven business. Um, but I'm sure there are wonderful women out there who could take over from me. I don't know. I have friends who say I should have an exit plan. I have no exit plan. Apart from dying, Um um I don't know, Um, I My main aim for the future is to keep going to keep surviving and, um, keep being a flourishing tiny little bookshop. [00:56:30] And I think there's a good chance that as long as I'm fit and healthy. And for the next few years we can achieve that. What will happen after that? I don't know, really, whether, um with the long term, there's a future for a women's bookshop at all. Silver Moon was the bookshop in London, Silver Moon I. I talked earlier about the the famous Women's Bookshop in London. It was called Silver Moon. It was in Charing Cross Road. It was there for a very long time. That was the one that moved to Foyle and then closed down. Um, so [00:57:00] I mean, I feel I do feel as though if Silver Moon closed down and eventually there is no place for women's bookshops, who knows? Because I mean the feminist movement is is is strong again. So, um, and there are young women now who are who are quite active as young feminists who are not just taking for granted some of the privileges that they've got that they don't even understand that my generation fought for, um so I I do. I do think there's a continued need [00:57:30] to make sure that women's voices are heard because we still do basically live in a male dominated society where men are taken more seriously and and it's as I said before, it's sort of underlying probably unconscious, sort of assumption that's made. But, um so I believe there is still a place for women's bookshops. But whether whether we'll survive long, long term, after I'm dead, I don't know.

IRN: 723
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/geno_sisneros_human_rights_tribunal_case.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004244
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089538
TITLE: Geno Sisneros
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Geno Sisneros
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2000s; 2010s; Anglican Church; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Christianity; David Rykin; Gavin Cook; Gay and Lesbian Clergy Anti-Discrimination Society (GLCADS); Gene Robinson; Geno Sisneros; Huhana Hickey; Human Rights Act (1993); Human Rights Review Tribunal; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Rodger Haines; Ross Bay; St Matthew-in-the-City; United States of America; activism; anxiety; billboards; church; civil unions; discernment; discrimination; employment; equality; faith; homophobia; law; marriage; marriage equality; media; ordination; relationships; religion; social justice; spirituality
DATE: 26 May 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Geno talks about the journey to becoming ordained as a priest in the Anglican Church, and taking a case against the Bishop of Auckland to the Human Rights Review Tribunal.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Gino Cisneros. I'm, uh I'm an American citizen who's lived in New Zealand for about the past 14 years as a permanent resident. Uh, I've done a bachelor of theology, uh, degree, which is a three year degree that I took over about five years. Um, grew up Pentecostal, a very fundamentalist Pentecostal church for the most part of my life. Um, I have a partner. Uh, we've been together four years over four years. Um, [00:00:30] we're sitting in Saint Matthew in the city. What's been your involvement with ST Matthew? Uh, I first came to Saint Matthew in the city eight years ago, and I had, uh, was new to Auckland, and I was looking for a job. Uh, and at the same time, I was also looking for a church, and, uh, and I came across Saint Matthew's website, and, uh, and it sounded interesting to me. I was, uh, probably still consider myself a fundamentalist or even, um, up to that point. And for a while after [00:01:00] that, even, uh, when I started coming to Saint Matthews. And, uh, I attended an 8 a. m. service one morning and our victor Glenn Cardy, preached and um, I was sort of taken aback by the kind of language he used to describe. Uh uh, God and the experience of God. It was, uh, something I hadn't heard before. And it, uh, obviously must have appealed to me because it stuck with me and, um, made me curious, uh, to know whether or not there was other ways of [00:01:30] being Christian And, uh, so that relationship with the congregation, uh, developed and, uh, I applied for the role that was open here, Which at the time was, uh uh, uh, it was I was just going to cover marketing communications till, uh, someone else was brought on board for that and then, uh, became part of the administration staff and then eventually became the events manager here. What kind of language was being used? Uh, it was it was the general gender neutral language that he talked about God, and he didn't, [00:02:00] um it actually had nothing to do with gender. In fact, he was advocating for the opposite. Um, I think his, uh what I eventually learned about his theology that appealed to me was that he didn't believe God was, uh, you know, this male being that lived up in heaven and, um, sort of intervened in the in the affairs of the world whenever it suited him. Uh, that God was far more mysterious and bigger, and, uh and so I suppose with all that, I came to, [00:02:30] um, realise that it was not possible for me any longer to put God into this little box That was comfortable, uh, for me. And it was actually quite liberating to come to that realisation. Tell me, why is religion and spirituality important to you? Religion? Uh, you're right in in making a distinction between the two, because I don't think they're the same, um, re, uh, spirituality, uh, from my perspective, spirituality is, uh, anything [00:03:00] as formal as, uh, as a ritual of of the Eucharist. Coming to church on Sunday mornings, uh, to anything is sort of casual as, um uh, lighting a candle and, uh, having a cup of hot tea at night. Uh, to me, that's very spiritual as well. Um, I think what spirituality does is it is meant to have from my perspective and a nurturing aspect to it. Uh, so in other words, you keep finding ways to keep your spirit nurtured as you're doing, um, [00:03:30] work in religion. Uh, And for us here at Sathe, of course, that's all, uh, largely tied up with social justice, uh, issues. And, uh, the other part of spirituality as well is that, uh, it also part of spirituality is trying to understand what spirituality is. And so I think, um, for myself, I mean, it encompasses all of that. It's It's very relational thing. It teaches me how to relate to people. Um uh, [00:04:00] you know, those kinds of skills and dealing with people that don't come natural to some of us, uh, opening our minds, understanding other ways of their opinions. So, uh, you know, they both go, They go hand in hand, religion and spirituality. And, um, one should nurture the other, I think, And in terms of religion, what what are your thoughts on religion? Uh, my thoughts on religion are that, um, I. I have to tell you about, uh, the case that we're in. Uh, is I met [00:04:30] a a priest outside who I know who is an acquaintance of mine outside, uh, the other day, and she mentioned to me that people were very, uh, angry at me. The Anglican church, uh, for bringing, you know, the case that we're gonna talk about today, uh, to the Human Rights tribunal. And, uh, and her position on that was they're angry at you because you were being disloyal to the church. And I didn't respond to her when she said that. But when I went away and thought about it, I thought, Well, my loyalty isn't actually to the church. It's to [00:05:00] the gospel message. And so religion at its best organised religion at its best for me is, uh, uh, something that doesn't require loyalty. It's not a membership. It's not. Uh I mean, you don't have to fill out a membership form and get approved to be a part of Anglicanism. It's just not the way it works. And I think it's, uh, ideally, uh, organised. Religion is more fluid and it's welcoming, and it allows for a plurality of ways of being Christian, And, uh, it doesn't always do that. [00:05:30] And I think, uh, a lot of the time it doesn't do that. And I suppose I kind of, uh, see a lot of what I do and a lot of what we do here? Um, Saint Matthews is kind of, um, uh, sort of being a beacon. And, uh uh, and another example of another way of being Christian, Sir Matthew and the city has, um, had a strong association with the, uh, lesbian, gay, transgender, bisexual community. Um, for [00:06:00] decades. How does Saint Matthew fit in with the Anglican church? We are, uh we're probably more vocal, uh, in terms of our public theology in terms of our sermons. And, um uh, you know, the articles we write for publication, and our billboards are a big part of our public theology. Um, but there, uh, but there is a place for us in the Anglican church and and, you know, among the spectrum of different ways of being anglican. Um, [00:06:30] And I think, uh, you know, you you get you can get very extreme examples of conservative churches, and there is also a place for them here, um, in the Anglican church. So I don't, um So is your question. How do we fit in? How how? How does it relate to the the the rest of the Anglican Church in New Zealand? Yeah, I think it it adds to the plurality of voices. It adds to the example that there's different ways of being Christian. Yeah, this one's more, uh, socially justice focused. We understand, [00:07:00] um, maybe our mission differently in terms of the rest of Anglicanism. But, uh, there's certainly progressive churches, um, other than Saint Matthew's, you know, even here in New Zealand, there's a few and, um, overseas as well. What prompted you to want to become a priest? I think, uh, let's Look, um I don't think becoming a priest is something a person wants to do. I kind of think of it as, um uh, like, for [00:07:30] example, me being a gay man, it's something that is part of my identity. It's not so much what I do, it's who I am. And I think that, uh, I experienced what we call the calling or a calling. Um, very early on in childhood. Um, my mother reminds me that, uh, when I was very young, I'd get home from church and line up all my stuff animals and preach to them from my nursery rhyme books. Which is, um, you know, a sure sign for her that I was Something was going on there. Uh, and I preached my first, uh, a sermon [00:08:00] in a, uh, in a Pentecostal church when I was 12 years old. Um, taught Sunday school, um, led Bible studies. I've, uh uh It's always been there. And so, um, the interesting thoughts that I have about, uh, being a priest is, uh, whether or not you a person gets ordained or not, you don't stop being a priest because it's part of who you are. The the sort of ordination part of it is, um, for example, when the same people the same reason people get married [00:08:30] is it, you know, have a church service in front of their family and friends because it's a public declaration and a public acknowledgement, um, their relationship to each other and and the church ordination is similar. Uh, it's a, uh, a declaration that the church is formally recognising that part of your identity. What is the status in New Zealand at the moment? In terms of, um, ordination of gay priests? Uh, there there's a bit of history. Do you want to know the history? [00:09:00] Ok, uh, the policy as it stands within our House of bishops, and, uh and that is for the so in Anglicanism, we have, uh, a three church, which we are unique in the rest of the world. Uh, that we have three archbishops that share the same job. Uh, one is for, uh, tika Maori. One is for Tika Pacifica. Uh, and the other is, which is the stream, Uh, the strand that I'm involved with And, uh, about, [00:09:30] uh, 10 years ago or more, Our house of bishops, uh, made a decision that they were no longer going to be ordaining any gay people who were not, uh, celibate. So that's sort of different. It was a, uh, something imposed on on on gay, uh, clergy that wasn't imposed on heterosexual clergy. And, uh, that came about because in, um, I think in about 2003, 2005, [00:10:00] somewhere in there, uh uh, in America, there was, uh, an Anglican priest in America were called Episcopalians, uh, named Jean Robinson. And he was openly gay and in a relationship with his same sex partner. And he had, uh, been elected, uh, to be the bishop of, uh, New Hampshire. And what his election to that role did was it started a firestorm in the worldwide Anglican Communion. Uh, so much so that now, uh, very conservative [00:10:30] churches were now calling for a moratorium. Uh, which the bishop, Uh, the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams at the time. Uh, he and, uh, and and the committees basically determined that they were going to ask the rest of the community not to ordain any more, Uh, gay bishops who were not celibates until the Worldwide Communion had a chance to work their way through these issues and until some consensus was reached. And, uh, what's happened in New Zealand is our house of bishops have taken that a step further. [00:11:00] They said not only will we not, uh, allow the election of gay bishops who are not celibate, we are also not going to allow the ordination of gay and lesbian, uh, priests or deacons, uh, who are not in a celibate relationship. So that was kind of, uh, that's how the policy came about. Um, and that's kind of, uh why I think that this this policy, I mean, it can be considered a policy of discrimination. Uh, the time before that, uh, it just wasn't asked [00:11:30] of potential ordinance, whether or not they were gay or straight or, um so it wasn't a problem up until that point. So where does that leave? Say, um, ordain gay priests in New Zealand now? Well, we had, um I know a priest who who lives down Otago way, uh, who was ordained by his bishop amongst some protests. Um, the sort of thing I suppose it's important to know is the reasons why [00:12:00] the bishops, uh, believed that they had to enact this policy, uh, was because after the ordination election of Jean, uh, Jean Robinson, they understood their role, Uh, that they were not. They did not have autonomy basically over who they were allowed to ordain. And, uh, and our our bishop of Auckland, has said on a number of occasions that he, uh you know, he is the bishop of all Anglicans in this diocese, and, uh, and feels like he can't move forward in ordaining gay people. [00:12:30] Um, because it would be unfair to the parts of the church that haven't, uh, that haven't taken that path yet. Uh and so they There have been a few ordinations since the time. I mean, it really depends on the Bishop. This is now a retired bishop that ordained this person down south. Um, but as it stands now, there are no candidates getting through the ordination process who are gay and in a same sex relationship. Can you explain [00:13:00] to me why celibacy was picked on as a reason for not ordaining gay people? Well, it, uh, it goes back to the very heart of Of of the controversy is that, um uh, there is a belief in some parts of the church that, uh, that the union got intended, and we hear this quite often in public debate about marriage equality. Um, uh, that God defines has given us the definition of marriage as between one man [00:13:30] and one woman. Uh, I suppose the, uh, the part about non celibate same sex relationships is that, uh, there are still very conservative parts of our church who believe that, um, the gay people are defective intrinsically in some way. Uh, the the love that, uh, you know, a couple who are the same sex can possibly be, um, an authentic. And it couldn't possibly be something that, [00:14:00] uh, that God would favour. And so, uh, that's kind of how the policy has come about is, uh, lots of people are using that as an argument to say, Uh, the gay people cannot possibly express love in a true sense of love as, uh, as do a man and a woman in a relationship. So it's it goes back to the, you know, to the argument that being gay is sinful, and, um and that's where you that's the origins of it. [00:14:30] So this is happening in the mid two thousands in terms of the non ordination of, of, of, of, of gay people. Why do you continue to to want to kind of move forward with this like, in terms of, like, become ordained in this church? Um, well, part of, uh, part of the argument in the tribunal, uh, for us is that we, um uh the part the the section [00:15:00] of the Human Rights Act that we are appealing to. Uh, section 39. Uh, our interpretation of it is that a church, uh, would has to, uh, be able to prove to a tribunal that, uh, that this is inherent in their beliefs. In other words, if I was Catholic, I probably could not be doing what I'm doing because Catholics have a very, um, very clear religious belief about who can be priests. Uh, they require their priests to be male and celibates. Uh, so they make no distinction. [00:15:30] They don't say. Uh, well, heterosexual priests, uh, don't have to be celibate, but gay priests do. I mean, it's it's the overall policy and, uh, religious belief for them. What we're saying is that in Anglicanism, the same cannot be said to be true. And, uh, that goes back to there being a plurality of ways of being Anglican. And there are gay and lesbian priests, uh, now who are in same sex relationships. So we know that that has not always been the case. We know that, [00:16:00] um, that this is a relatively new, uh, way of, uh, treating gay and lesbian Anglicans in terms of Anglicanism in New Zealand. So, like I said just the past 10 or so years that this has been happening. And before that, uh, people just didn't question it. They didn't ask you when, when you know, when you went to see your bishop, whether or not you were gay or straight. And is that a kind of conversation you've had with the Bishop of Auckland. In terms of I mean, have you ever kind of had a chat with him [00:16:30] and said, Oh, and that homosexuality has come up or Yes, I, uh you have to keep in mind as well that I've been, um, working on this issue with the bishop's office for the past seven years. I made my first contact seven years ago with, uh, then Bishop John Patterson. Um, and again when I, uh, when I met Bishop Ross a couple of years ago. Um, so I've been having these conversations with the bishop's office for, you know, for seven years. And [00:17:00] when I went to see Bishop Ross, he, uh, he was a newly elected bishop. He hadn't been in office long. Um, and, uh, the first thing I asked him was, Do people have to disclose their sexuality and relationship status to you? And he believed that that was appropriate to do that. Uh, and so I did. Um, So I did that for a for a couple of reasons. Uh, I wanted to make sure that I was starting off on the right foot with him. Uh, the first is because I want to be able to get through. [00:17:30] Um, the process. Honestly, I don't wanna have to hide who I am. Um, I'd already been preaching, you know, from Saint Matthew's pulpit in the Auckland Community Church, Um, for a few years. And, uh, so my sexuality, I you know, I've always been very open about it, and, uh, there was no secret. Uh, and the other part of that is is that I didn't want him to ordain me and then have a firestorm come upon him. Um, when it came to light that I was gay and living [00:18:00] in a relationship, I didn't think that was fair on him either. So, uh, it was for those two reasons that I asked that question of him and then made the disclosure that, yes, I was gay and in a relationship. And what was the response? Uh, he we talked a little bit about, um uh, you know, about the current policy in the House of Bishops, and I said, Yes. I'm very aware that, um, that that is the case, And, uh, and I know that bishops aren't ordaining any gay people in same [00:18:30] sex relationships at, uh, for the time being. But what I would be interested in what I would be would like to ask you, um, is whether or not you will at least allow me into the process of discernment. That process of discernment is the process whereby the bishop tests your calling, uh, to see if you were being called to ordained ministry, and, uh, and I also made it clear to him that I realised that it would not necessarily lead to ordination. I mean, even, um, [00:19:00] take the sexuality out of the equation. And, uh, no person when they go through the discernment process is guaranteed to be ordained at the end of that process. Um and so he, uh I said, you know, I would be willing to, uh, to wait, you know, to do the work that was required to try and help the church get through this. And he said he was not closed off to that, Uh, but he wanted to take advice, uh, from the archbishop, who at the time was Archbishop David Moxon. [00:19:30] And, um and so I left there, you know, feeling somewhat hopeful because he wasn't completely closed off to the idea. And, um uh, and so that kind of, uh you know, I kept in contact with him, and, you know, eventually he did receive a letter from one of the church, Uh uh, judges, chancellors, uh, saying that, uh, no, it would be against canons right now to do that. Uh, until a decision is made by General Synod, uh, that you can proceed with ordinations. [00:20:00] And, uh, but even then, that still wasn't No, that was so, you know, let's do some more work around it. Let's you know, it's been kind of like that, though for the past seven years, it's been Let's do some more work around this. Let's do some more listening some more. Uh, keeping in mind, the church has been dealing with the with the idea of, uh, same sex unions for the past 30 years, uh, in in the New Zealand Church. So it's been, uh, we've been struggling with the issue for a long time. So how did we get from [00:20:30] there to taking a case to the human rights tribunal? What happened? A lot of frustration. I suppose it was, um it was, uh, you know, that part of, uh of this journey for me has been happening in the past two years. So it meant that that was basically that was two years of, um, seeking a lot of advice. A lot of, uh, prayerful meditation, a lot of, um, anxiety. A lot of not sleeping at night [00:21:00] to get to the point where I said yes. This is something that I think is the right thing for me to do. And, uh, I mean, there was a few issues around that that I had to get past, but, uh, that I'd worked my way through. But for the most part, once I made the decision to do it, I've never and not felt that it was right. I've always felt that it's been right in my spirit to do what I'm doing. What are some of the issues and and possible consequences that you were thinking of? Um, before you took the action. [00:21:30] Um, I'm a strong proponent of separation of church and state and, uh, church and state because of my, um, because of being American, it's, uh, a much bigger issue in America than it is here. Uh, church and state has not evolved in the same way in New Zealand. as it has in America. Uh, but knowing that what I didn't want to happen was, uh, eventually I came to, um, hope that, uh, one outcome [00:22:00] of this would not be that the that the state reaches into the church and says, you have to change your beliefs. Uh, because I don't believe that would be a good thing. Uh, I, I suppose. I sort of, um I had to start understanding this in a different way, and it basically comes down to what I'm asking of the tribunal and what I'm asking of the tribunal is two things. One. I'm asking them to make a determination as to whether or not, uh I was discriminated against. And the second, uh, part of that is, [00:22:30] uh, if I was discriminated against under the human rights legislation, Section 39 is it unlawful? Because, uh, as I said before, uh, if I were Catholic, I probably would not be able to do this because, uh, Catholics can prove that this is a clear belief for them and therefore have an exemption under the act. Whereas in Anglicanism it is not like that. Were there other avenues that you could have followed rather than going to the tribunal. [00:23:00] Uh, the Anglican church has no formal process to make a complaint about discrimination. Uh, when it pertains to ordination that I know of, um, if they had, I would hope that, uh, a bishop or someone would have said that to me some time over the past seven years. So for me, there there was no other option, uh, for me to have a voice. Uh, and that's is largely why I I chose to take the path I've taken. Was it you personally [00:23:30] taking a case to the tribunal, or was it a kind of a large body? Uh, well, we have a society. The society is, uh, the gay and lesbian clergy anti discrimination society. Uh, which is a group of people, uh, who are passionate about issues of, um, you know, justice and equality and especially passionate about this issue. Um, that society was sort of, uh, established, uh, for this purpose. [00:24:00] And, uh, and they sort of act as a, uh so they do it in support of me. So I think as part of my support network, um, and, uh, also the the human rights the, uh, director of proceedings wanted, uh, thought it might be too much for one person to try and do this by themselves. And, uh, was concerned that we had that I had some sort of society to, uh, support me through it. And that was the main reason why. [00:24:30] And, um and, uh, so the complaint is actually in their name. It's the GLS versus the bishop of Auckland. Are there any other reasons why it is better to have, uh, a group take a complaint rather than an individual? Um, it can be, uh, luckily for me, because I come from a fundamentalist background and and working at Saint Matthew in the city and with, you know, the firestorms that help some happen sometimes around our billboards and public theology, [00:25:00] Um, was I kind of developed a thick skin. Uh, that kind of I mean, sort of prepared me for something like this, Um, but for other people, I would not recommend going it alone. I think it's a very good idea to have a support network that helps support people who choose to do something like this. So, yes, I don't suggest doing it alone, and I don't think um uh, as a as a rule, I don't think the human [00:25:30] Rights Commission suggests people go it alone. So take me through the process. What? What actually happens with with a complaint? I mean, first of all, do you call it a complaint? Or is it it's more a case or Yeah, it's, uh yeah, You hear different words. It's not a trial. It was a hearing. It's not a, um, a criminal charge. It's a It's a complaint. Uh, the first part of that because I already, um, had, uh, before I approached the Human Rights Commission. I already had a lawyer. Um, that is David Reich from [00:26:00] Reich and Associates. Who, uh, he's a human rights lawyer who specialises in refugee and asylum seeker, uh, cases. And, uh, So basically, the first step for us was to, uh, approach the commission with our complaint, and they make a determination. They don't say whether discrimination has happened or not. What they say is yes or no, that you have an arguable case. Uh, from that, uh, I think a large part of what the commission does is they see their work is also, [00:26:30] um, a reconciling work. So they have various processes for mediations and things like that. Um, if those other processes are not successful, you know where the two, where the complaint and the, uh, come to any, uh, sort of agreement. Then, uh, your next step is to submit it to the office of the human Rights, uh, proceedings director, who then, uh, determines whether or not he or she are willing to [00:27:00] take on your case and have a case taken to the tribunal in their name. And then, uh, once that happens, then my lawyer becomes counsel instructed because he then becomes instructed by the office of the Human Rights Proceedings Commissioner And, uh, I. I know it gets kind of complicated because then it's the, uh the so society. Our society, the GO. A is the plaintiff, and then I'm the complainant. So there's quite a number of people involved, um, from our perspective in bringing this case and [00:27:30] where are we now in the process. So I won't. We won't kind of skip a kid, but just we from what you've described, where are we now in that? Where we're at now is we've completed the hearing and we are now waiting for the tribunal to do its work. Um, which we understand could be as soon as July or August. Or, um, it could even be a year or so. Uh, so we're basically waiting for them to come back with their decision is where we're at right now. OK, What was the reaction of the church, [00:28:00] uh, to having this complaint laid out of about 60 or 70 emails and messages that I've received? Um, and, you know, I would say the majority of those were from inside the church from inside Anglicanism, uh, were very supportive. I've had one email that could possibly be considered, um, hate mail. Um, and I'm also, uh, so II. I mean, I know that there's a lot of people in the Anglican church in New Zealand that are not happy about what I'm doing. Um, [00:28:30] and they don't have to be happy about it. Uh, this is a path I've chosen for myself. Um, but for the most part, I mean, our congregation here at Saint Matthew's have been wonderful and supportive, and, um, and they are part of the reason why my partner and I never sort of felt we were doing this alone. We always felt that we had, uh the support we needed and such. I can't over, um, overstate how important that is. Um, but for the most part, I mean, I some people sort of sit in the middle. They, you know, sort of understand [00:29:00] that this case has arisen out of frustration. And, um and, uh, are trying to understand what what if any good can come from it Or what are the possible implications of, um, if it doesn't go? Uh uh, one way or the other. Um, and it's those people that I have spent a good deal of time communicating with. And, um, it's important for them to understand. I mean, there's, uh there is misinformation happening at the moment that the tribunal is being asked to [00:29:30] force the Anglican Church to change its beliefs. And that's clearly not what we're asking. Um, and that's not part of the scope of their power or what they do in terms in terms of the Human Rights Act. So it it is largely those people that I've taken more time to, um, have the discussion with, um but I think the you know, the other. The other wonderful thing that's kind of happened is it's spurred off lots of conversation right now in the Anglican church in a way that I think, [00:30:00] um, has not happened for some time. And I think it's really important for us to be having those conversations. And I think that, uh uh, when we sort of try to sweep it under the door, pretend that gay people and lesbian people are not in the church or that we I mean, we're not a new phenomenon. Um, we have always been part of the church. We've always been part of Christianity of Anglicanism, and so I think it's, um I mean, I don't, [00:30:30] uh I don't try to say that I'm speaking for all gay people. I'm not even speaking for all gay Anglicans. I'm only speaking for myself, but that's my observation that there's a lot of helpful conversation that are coming out of, uh of what's going on. Can you summarise the case? Uh, both your case and and and also the the church's case that was presented to the tribunal. Yes. Uh, my case is, uh uh [00:31:00] I mean the CO. I'll stay away from the complex legal arguments. But from my perspective, uh, we are arguing that, uh, the Anglican Church, the Diocese of Auckland, um, and the Anglican Church as a whole does not have, uh, a belief that gay and lesbian people who are not celibate cannot become ordained. Um, and as far as, uh, the bishops, uh, legal team are arguing, um, [00:31:30] that he does not have the authority or the autonomy to ordain whoever he pleases. And he is basically saying that there would have to be a change. The General Senate would have to vote, make a conscious vote, um, for that to happen. And they have not done that. Um, so it's sort of I mean, it comes down to basically the way that the bishops understand their role in New Zealand and we're saying, Well, this is sort of a This is a new understanding of the way that they understand [00:32:00] the role, because why, before, uh, was it not a big issue? Why? Just up until you know the election of Gene Robinson did it become an issue? So those are the and the and the tribunal has to determine whether this is religious belief or doctrine. um So the sort of questions that they were asking were around that, um, they because unfortunately, they have the task to try and make a determination as to whether or not, uh, the church has an exemption like the Catholic Church might. [00:32:30] And so who was sitting on the tribunal? The tribunal has three members. Um, it has a chairperson. Uh, who in our case, Uh, I is Roger Hanes QC, Uh, and two members that sit alongside the chairperson. And that was Doctor Hickie. And, uh, Gavin Cook a gentleman by the name of Gavin Cook. And that's what the tribunal is. That's how the tribunal is made up. What [00:33:00] was it like during the hearing presenting? Presenting to him. It was a, uh I was the first person being called to the witness stand. And I, um uh, the tribunal and the defence lawyers had already had a hard copy of my statement. Uh, and I basically read out my statement, um, and, uh, basically talking about my journey and how long I've been dealing with this, and, um, and also about the, uh, sort of emotional [00:33:30] costs of it. I mean, uh, discrimination, Um, you know, it's tightly related to hurt and humiliation. I mean, there's all kinds of emotions that come out. Um uh, for a while there as well. I. I was trying to give some sort of voice, uh, to the pain that discrimination causes. And, uh, And for me, part of that pain is not just being sort of feeling like I've been isolated. Uh, but it also started bringing up these old feelings of shame, uh, [00:34:00] about my sexuality that that I felt like I had dealt with a long time ago. And I was, uh, quite angry that I that, you know, that that was happening. Um, discrimination from, you know, from my, uh, experience has also caused strains in relationships, personal relationships. Um, what happened for me is when I was doing my bachelor of theology degree and dealing with all this, Uh, as many of my friends and colleagues were all, um, also doing the same [00:34:30] thing. They were also, um, but their experience was different because, uh, many of them are not gay. Uh, and they were allowed to go through the process. Some were turned away. Um, because the bishops obviously didn't feel they were being called or, um, for whatever reason, but many of them went through the process and were ordained. And, uh uh, and many are ordained today, and and clergy, you know, their vicar, their deacons, uh, working all over the church. So it caused. I sort of [00:35:00] withdrew from them during that time. And a lot of my, uh, friendships suffered because of it. Friendships that I'm trying to now, um, reconcile now that I have, uh, some distance from all of that. And, uh, so I found, actually that the, uh the whole experience of going through, uh, a tribunal hearing, um, was very healing to me. And, uh, and part of that healing was, um, uh, [00:35:30] sort of looking back and and and and thinking, you know how it did affect relationships and what I can do to to bring healing to those relationships between me and people that I withdrew from. What was it like being on the stand and talking about such personal things? Yeah, it's, uh it's funny. I think I had wrote a Facebook post that talked about how and because the news had reported it the night before news broke that it was happening it was all over the news. And, um, and then the [00:36:00] media by the by the by the day by Monday morning, by the time the tribunal started the hearing, uh, it seemed like everybody knew about it, and, uh, I suppose what I felt, um, what was strange to me is that it's kind of like my sex life had become part of the public debate. I felt, you know, now people are gonna look at me, and they now Oh, he's not celibate. So I thought it was, uh It was a strange thing because I hadn't experienced something like that before. Um, so it was just It was people talking [00:36:30] specifically. I mean, my my partner is a very private person, and he's kind of had to, um, to come to terms. I mean, I would never have done this if he hadn't been on board with it. Um, but I don't think he realised it was going to be as big, uh, as big an issue as it is. He comes from, uh, a non-religious background. Uh, he comes from a, uh, a rural community in New Zealand, uh, where it's just sexuality just isn't an issue, and he can't understand what all the fuss is about. So [00:37:00] when we arrived, you know, at the hearing on Monday morning, and you know, there are reporters and, um, video cameras and people taking our photos it was all like we had been immersed into this, um, the squirrel that was very felt very alien to us. And so that was sort of. I mean, that's when your support system really comes in handy, because you have to, um, sort of stay grounded in, you know, not get too upset about what people are writing or what people are saying. Um, and they kind of help you to, [00:37:30] uh, to process all of that if you've got a good support system. And, uh so yeah, I think out of all of that, it was the sort of and in the tribunal I It wasn't that I sort of had to when I was on the witness stand, Um, I didn't feel like I was having to justify myself or, um argue about who I was, or I was basically being offered the opportunity by the tribunal to have a voice and to give language to these things that I felt and to what my experience [00:38:00] was. Um And then it was up to the lawyers, basically to argue, you know, to argue the legalities of it, but I don't feel like I ever had to. Um I never had to make an argument that it was OK to be gay or, you know, there was none of that. And and and from the other side, did anyone question your relationship, or was it more that actually, this is It wasn't necessarily about you, but it was about a wider issue. [00:38:30] This this is about a wider issue. Um, no, Uh, I was only asked one question by, uh, by the defence lawyer, um, which was just about, uh, a question about how I understood the process. Um, I wasn't asked any questions about my relationship. Um, and not even as I've been going through this. Uh uh. No Bishop has ever asked me, uh, in about the sort of, um, state or the, uh [00:39:00] uh about anything about my relationship. They haven't said, you know. Are you in a, uh, in a monogamous relationship? Is it a loving faithful? Um, we never made it to that point. Eventually I would understand. Um, I understand that we would have gotten to that point where a bishop wants to make sure that if you were in a relationship, that it is a loving, nurturing relationship and that it's respectful and that it's in line with what? What the church calls the right ordering of sexual relationships. Um, so, no, there weren't any questions about, [00:39:30] uh, about my relationship with my partner. Um, I suppose I over prepared. I was sort of, uh, expecting. You know, I imagine this very dramatic court case, you know where, uh, you know the defence attorney slams his hand down on to the witness stand and, um, tries to force me to tell the truth and interrogate me. But that's not what happened. It was all very civilised and respectful. And, um um, but I wouldn't have minded. I wouldn't have minded questions about my relationship. You briefly mentioned [00:40:00] the media, and I'm wondering, what has the reaction been from from the media? I think, uh, my opinion is is I think I mean, I don't I For the first couple of days of the hearing, I was reading conservative media and I was reading conservative blogs. But I realised that none of that is gonna be helpful for me because I find it very disconcerting. Um, you know, when you're being when they're at hominem attacks, basically when they're attacking, uh, you as a person and, [00:40:30] uh, and not really wanting to see what the what? The arguments are not wanting to understand anything about it. Um, for the most part, I think the mainstream media, um, who attended the hearing, You know, that whole week, uh, I thought that they, uh, did a, uh, a great job reporting what was happening fairly. I mean, there's always misunderstandings in the way that the media understand the legal arguments. And, um, I think 11 journalist asked me on my way on the last day of, uh of the hearing [00:41:00] on my way out of the courthouse asked me if I would ever reapply to become a priest. And I think I said something like, um, it's possible. What I probably meant to say was, Nothing is impossible. And, uh, and then and that night there was the headline Where gay priest still clings to dream of being a priest. Um uh, which is a little different to what I said. I mean, I wasn't bothered by it, but it's, uh, uh, It just reminds you that you have to be very careful about how you word things, uh, in the public eye and [00:41:30] in the media. And, uh and so I think for the most part, I think they were very fair in the way they reported it. Um, yeah. And I think, uh, and the public have been in their response to it have been Like I said, I've had a lot of support outside of the church as well. Um, from just ordinary New Zealanders who, uh, who think New Zealanders as a whole don't like to see, um, anybody getting shit on by an institution or by a corporation. And I think, uh, [00:42:00] that's part of what it means to be kiwi and learning is that you're always advocating for the little guy or, you know, people that are marginalised. So I think that's kept me very hopeful. You mentioned before we started recording that, um you're also working with a number of, uh, kind of current affairs media programmes on on stories. How do you think? And and these haven't been to E years. And I'm wondering, how do you think, Uh, that will affect you being kind of like on a on [00:42:30] a large current affairs show? Um, I'm not completely comfortable with all of that. I don't, um I don't feel comfortable on television. I don't. And it's, uh and it's just I mean, these are skills I would have to develop anyway. You know, I, I sort of I mean, I'm I'm fine preaching from a pulpit. I'm preaching from a script. Um, and, uh uh, and there's a big difference to that to being, uh, having an interview, uh, on live television. Um, [00:43:00] but, uh, I don't see that I have any other choice. I think, um, I think the public, I think people inside the church, they want to know what the story is behind this. And, uh, my personal stance has always been that I, um I have always wanted this to become about the issue, but I realise that it has such big implications that, um uh, that that's not enough. It's not enough just to have the legal arguments out in the public domain. [00:43:30] People want to put a voice and a face to the story. And if that's what I have to do to bring understanding about I mean, I'm just gonna have to, you know, overcome my fear of interviews. And, um uh, so, yes, I'm not entirely comfortable doing that, but I But I will do it because I think it's it's necessary. What about, uh, the, uh, Rainbow Media, Gay media? How how have they treated you? Um, [00:44:00] the gay media haven't written much about it or reported much about it. I think there was, uh, some gay media in the UK. Um, that came out about it. Um, and I think gay NZ dot com. Uh, somebody told me they posted a story a couple of times about the hearing. Um um, they were sort of, uh, II. I think they were kind of neutral stories. I mean, I think the gay media, uh, wasn't taking one side [00:44:30] or the other. They were just reporting that this is what was happening. So, um, which I think is fair reporting II. I don't, um, expect to have lots of support. And it might be because I'm not, uh, uh aware of how people outside of the church and the gay community are feeling about the church right now. I mean, the church has done some horrible things, uh, to gay people and to minorities. And, um, it doesn't surprise me that they there might be, um, a segment of the gay population [00:45:00] out there that, uh, um they don't have any time for the church or, um, you know, they might be asking, Why the hell are you doing this? You know, these people have been terrible to gay people. Why are you trying to be part of this heterosexual club? I mean, and this is, uh, And that comes from, uh, comments that I've had with with friends of mine who are, um, who are gay and lesbian. So, um, so I haven't seen a lot of gay media on it. Maybe when all is said and done, I might sit down and and see if anybody was saying anything about [00:45:30] it. And, um, but at this point, I, I probably, um probably part of me doesn't want to at this point, but, um, it wouldn't surprise me and it it I don't think it would be hurtful to me. I think if I was doing this five years ago, it might have been hurtful to me. Um, if that was opinions that were coming out of the gay media, Um, but I think I've I've come to understand a lot of why there is, uh, some hostility that that comes out against the church, have things like the recent passing [00:46:00] of the marriage equality bill had any effect On what? On your journey? Well, I found, uh, the marriage equality legislation. I thought was interesting one because I think it showed a definite turning of the tide. Um, in terms of New Zealand, I mean, uh, uh, this was big stuff. And, uh, you know, and and there again, you know, there's some churches that were doing making submissions, saying marriage is between one man and one woman and then you have some, um, you know, some of [00:46:30] the, uh, more liberal or progressive churches, uh, saying well, you know, we believe that, uh, gay people should be allowed to get married. It's part of equality. And what I found especially, probably interesting and maybe, um, inspirational about it was I know that, uh, people like Winston Peters, uh, the MP were calling for a referendum to take place. And, uh and I understand that, uh, Labour Party and, um, other parts of parliament, uh, were not keen on that idea. And [00:47:00] I did some thinking about that afterwards and in relation to my own situation with the Human Rights Review Tribunal because a lot of people have said, um, you know, why don't you wait for the church's internal processes to happen? Um uh, and what I sort of realised from the marriage equality debate is, um, as I was sort of wondering what why they were they were not keen to allow it to go for a referendum. Um, because it might not have passed, but it might [00:47:30] have. But I, I sort of came to believe that you can't always rely on a majority of people to do what is right. Um, and in the interests of minorities And, um, you know, especially sexual minorities. And so I kind of, uh, I'm still internalising that, and trying to, uh, figure out what that means in relation to what I'm doing. I mean, is it ever I mean, because basically, I think of, uh, as homophobia, I think of it as, uh, a kind of slavery. [00:48:00] I think what people are doing when they're homophobic or when they're questioning, you know, asking the question whether you're sinful or not because of your sexuality, is they are imposing a slavery on you. They're they're questioning your humanity. And I don't know if it's ever a good idea for our humanity to be humanity to be up for a public vote. And, um So, as I said, I'm still doing more work around the thinking of that. Um, but I I thought it was, uh, the other thing, too, is I started this, uh, this [00:48:30] case two years ago, and I think marriage equality was a a year it took to get from beginning to end of the process. Um, because the one conservative media that I did read said that, uh um uh, see, we were right. Uh, they they said that gay, uh, that churches weren't gonna be gay. People weren't gonna be forced on them, you know that. We weren't gonna have to marry them. And look, this is for 60 Anglicans, and now, um, so there's a lot of scaremongering going on about that, but I think, um uh, you know it was minimal. And I think that, [00:49:00] uh, marriage equality is is a bit of a remarkable thing. I think it's exciting time to be a gay and lesbian or transgender person in, uh, New Zealand. And, uh, that was one more, um, reason why I thought, uh, it's good to be here. What was the feeling at the end of that tribunal hearing? Um, I was relieved it was over. Uh, but that was, you know, the the last day of of the hearing, Uh, [00:49:30] the one of the bishops public relations. Uh, people came to us and, um, and said, Well, you know, he he's he wants to make a statement, and do you wanna make a statement as well? And maybe we could work it so that, you know, we go down one right after another, and, um and so we were, uh we were sort of in communications with his public relations people because, uh, the thing we don't want to do is during a hearing, is to be commenting to the media and trying to argue about the case in the media. Uh, and [00:50:00] so he came down and made a statement, and then I came down and I made a very brief statement. And, uh and that was the first time I had, uh, use my voice in public like that, uh, to talk about the hearing, and I suppose I I was relieved that that was over. I was relieved that the hearing was over. Um, and I sort of expected, uh, I don't know. I didn't know what to expect. After that, I thought, Well, this could go one of two ways this shit could hit the fan. Um, or it could [00:50:30] be very civil. And people could be having discussions and debates about it without, um, you know, attacking one another. And, uh, and so far it's been calm. I mean, I don't know what will happen when the decision comes. Um, but the decision itself, I don't necessarily know, um, how controversial. Whatever way it goes. Might be I don't There's no activism for dummies, one on one that teaches you how to do this kind of stuff. So, II, I wish there was, and I might have to write the book about [00:51:00] it someday. But But for the most part I felt a feeling of relief. I felt I was proud of the work we had done. I felt we were really advocating for equality on on a different scale and in our own way. So and I was, and I was grateful as well. I thought, um, you know, that I was lucky to live in a country that actually does have a forum for marginalised people to have a voice. And, uh, and and not just to have a voice but to be heard. [00:51:30] Well, speaking of activism 101 looking back. Are there things you would have done differently? Not differently. I. I mean, I I over prepared for everything and, uh, which I think was good. I think I you know, you sort of prepare for the for the worst, but hope for the best. And, uh, so now, in terms of that, I mean, and that's the other, um, wonderful thing about having a great support system. Uh, is that, uh, you're getting [00:52:00] different perspectives and, you know, and we've got a very big support system. We've got, you know, a close circle of friends. And, um, but we constantly were getting feedback. You know, I'd, uh, uh, voice my anxieties About what was going on, or, um, and my support people would feed that back to me, and And, uh, so it's very helpful to have There's nothing I would have done different. Um, now, overall, I can't say that there is anything I would have done different. What about lessons? Learned [00:52:30] to other anything? I think, uh, I think those aren't those aren't all apparent yet. I think that they're still learning That's gonna come out of all this. I think, um, I think what I did learn is that, uh is that when you feel right in your spirit that you were working towards justice and equality. I think, uh, you can be stronger than you think you are. I think, um, So I realised I was a much stronger person [00:53:00] than I thought I was. Um, that's been the main lesson for me. Is is that I sort of underestimate, uh, I guess how how, as gay people, gay and lesbian people, how, uh, thick our skin actually gets, you know, from dealing with homophobia. And, um and I hope that that's listening, you know, on a worldwide scale. And, uh um, but I think we're strong people. I think we, uh we've been through a lot. And, um [00:53:30] uh, and that doesn't ever That doesn't keep us down as a community. And, um, and I see part of what I did is working towards that equality. And even if, um, some gay media don't see that or understand it, I know that it's an important thing to do because I think sometimes the church and an organised religion in general is the last safe haven for bigotry and for homophobia and, uh, being able to claim its religious belief, I think is not acceptable. And I don't think it's acceptable in New Zealand. [00:54:00] Have you thought about the the outcome from the tribunal? Like I mean, what? Whether it goes your way or or the church's way What? What will it mean for you? Yes, I've I've thought about, um What? What? The implications might be One way or another, I think, uh, I mean, there's a number of ways that it can go. Um, uh, I suppose, um I mean, the other part of that is I feel like I've, uh [00:54:30] I've gained a lot of what I started this process for already. I mean, both the bishop and the archbishop and the witness stand admitted that this is a policy of discrimination. They're saying they're exempt because of section 39 of the Human Rights Act. Um, but nevertheless, they are saying it is discrimination and and and that is as the as the domestic law in New Zealand understands discrimination. Um, I mean, it can go a few ways. The outcome give you a mixed outcome. Um, one of those. I mean, [00:55:00] if the tribunal does not find it in my favour, Um I mean, I don't actually know what that would mean for me. I don't know what that means for, um, Anglicanism. Uh, I think if they do find in my favour that that basically says that they are saying yes, discrimination happened. Yes, it was unlawful. And, uh, and then the church and the bishops have to then justify to the New Zealand public why they're above the law. So and I don't know if that puts any more pressure. I mean, there is a process [00:55:30] that is happening in the Anglican Church that's been happening for the past year. Um uh, and as I said, I've been, you know, we've been working on our case for the past two years. So, um, for the past year, uh, a commission has been established in the Anglican church, and I understand their role is to, uh, to gather all the information that the Anglican church has, uh, to hear as many stories coming out of, uh uh, LGBT anglicans to hear, [00:56:00] uh uh, What theology. You know, the conversations about the about theology and Hermans have had to say about sexuality in relation to Scripture and, uh, and tradition and II I have I still I have a lot of hope that that that, uh, process will be successful in some way. I don't think the, uh, the commission is meant to make a recommendation. I think that they are going to present to the church a list of possible ways forward. And then, um, our general Senate has to, [00:56:30] uh, has to vote on on whichever ways that they think are feasible. Um, so I still have a lot of hope for that. I don't think I never thought this the case that I've pursued, I've never thought that that was going to be the answer. Um, and, uh, and like me I think a lot of people like me have, uh, uh, still have hope in the church processes that, um that it will eventually, you know, reverse these kind of, [00:57:00] uh, uh, policies of discrimination. And the other part of that is, um, you know, I don't think it's a it's a church and state argument because we're not asking for that sort of action from the tribunal. But it does ask the question of who is the church in relation to the society in which it exists? Um, should the church also fall under the domestic law or the exempt of the domestic law? Um, I mean, there's a whole There's a hell of a whole lot of things [00:57:30] that, uh, religious people, um, might like to claim that they can do as part of their religious belief things like, uh, the New Zealand law doesn't currently allow, um, like polygamy or, um, animal sacrifice. I mean, those are the extremes. Um, but I suppose all I'm saying is there are things in under the domestic law that people in religious institutions are not allowed to claim as a justification, uh, by their religious belief. And so I think that this, uh, case asks [00:58:00] those kinds of questions. Well, is sexuality also one of those things that falls under the domestic law? Um, that it cannot be claimed, Uh, you know, to be OK just because somebody says it's a religious belief. So it's an interesting place we find ourselves in. And I, um I think the conversation over the next few months will be, um will be very interesting to watch and see how that develops. I, um I don't know what that means, uh, specifically for me as an individual. [00:58:30] Um, but I think it's an interesting conversation for the wider society to have.

IRN: 725
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/michal_boyd_aged_care_research.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004243
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089537
TITLE: Michal Boyd - Aged Care Research
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Michal Boyd
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Age Concern New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland District Health Board (ADHB); Australia; GLBTI Retirement Association Inc; Gary Bellamy; Grey Power New Zealand; Jan Wilson; Lavender Islands: Portrait of the Whole Family (2003); Mark Henrickson; Michal Boyd; OUTLine NZ; Rule Foundation; Stephen Neville; Stephen Park; Stonewall riots (1969); United States of America; University of Auckland; We Don't Have Any of Those People Here (2010); ageing; ageism; caregiver; civil unions; closeted; community; culture; discrimination; education; elder care; elder issues; elders; family; funding; gay; homophobia; identity; incontinence; invisibility; lesbian; marriage; mobility; older age; peer support; policy; relationships; research; residential care; rest homes; sexuality; transgender; valscafe. org. au
DATE: 25 May 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Michal talks about research into the care of Rainbow people in aged residential care in New Zealand.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm Michael Boyd. I'm I'm a a nurse practitioner who works for water health. And I also work at University of Auckland, Uh, school of nursing and also, um, affiliated with the Freemasons department of Geriatric Medicine. Uh, we do, uh, research on older people's care. Um, and also, I provide care for older people through Guatemala Health in a clinic. Um, I moved to, uh, New Zealand in 2002 from Colorado in the States. Um, and I can [00:00:30] divide my time between doing clinical and, um, academics, academic work, and I am lesbian. I should probably say when you arrived here in the early two thousands. Can you paint a picture for me? Of what Rainbow Elder Care was like? It was actually invisible. And it and it probably for the most part, is invisible. It's it is not discussed. It's just not There was some research out of, [00:01:00] um, Australia. That's really interesting that talks about the title of the research is we don't have anybody like that here. Um, and I would say that that's the way it is. And even to go one step further. Sexuality in general with older people, it's just It's not a topic of discussion much, so I think that what we're trying to do, as as a new generation of of older, gay and lesbian people that have been [00:01:30] fully out and fully acknowledging their their sexuality, they're now getting to an age where they're going to need long term care. And, um, it is a different environment, um, to the closeted, um, environment that the earlier generation had to deal with. Why don't you think sexuality is discussed when people work with older people? Um, you see your grandmother and [00:02:00] you just don't talk about sex with your grandmother. I think that's part of it. Um, so there's something about personhood and losing your personhood as you age, So there's an ageism in it. Um, there's, you know, that, uh, I think that's part of it. Um, it it's it's a It's a real difficult thing. Um, for younger people to ask older people about sexuality, particularly about homosexuality. It's just, um we have ideas [00:02:30] in our head about how it should be, and and and again, I'll just go back to There's ageism. It's I think it's pure and simple. Ageism and sexuality is not just about sex, is it? I mean, I mean, it's wrapped up with identity and all that kind of stuff, and and it's getting much better now. I have to say, I think I think there's been a real shift in the last 10 years but because, uh, homosexual relationships in older generations they were quiet. They just they just [00:03:00] were not acknowledged. One of the, uh, Gary Bellamy did, uh, some of our work of the original research project. And one of the quotes that, um was talked about is a, uh, two men that had been together for 30 years. But one of the men had remained married. Um, so it was very, very closeted, and so that the care provider didn't even realise that this other men man was his partner because he was married [00:03:30] and it wasn't discussed. And it was, you know, it was very complex. And I think, um, that part of sexuality was so closeted, um, that it was it's been really difficult for people to, um acknowledge it because it's not acknowledged by other people. It's changing. It's hugely changing. But I think it's a generational shift. So it's stonewall. Frankly, I mean it's That's the shift. So you mentioned, [00:04:00] uh, some research in Australia. Can you tell me about that? Yeah. Australia is interesting. Um, even though they don't have gay marriage, and we do, which we're very proud of, of course. Um, they I think just because they have a much larger population, um, and more resources, they're a much more wealthy health care system. Um, they have done a lot of there's pockets of really good work being done, uh, about gay and lesbian older issues, and it's starting [00:04:30] to find its way into policies. And that's what we'd really like to do is get is to kind of move in that same direction. Um, in Western Australia in Perth. Um, there's an organisation called, uh, Grey G capital GRA. I, um And they did some research, uh, where they did qualitative interviews with people in, uh that were working in residential aged care. And again, that's where that quote came from. Their research that we don't have people like that here, but [00:05:00] again, what they found is some pretty severely homophobic attitudes about, uh, gays and lesbians in long term care. There's a group out of Melbourne, um, Curtin University. Uh, does a, uh, a lot of things. There's a a group doing a thing called Vows Cafe, which is just new, and it's a website, And so if people want to look that up, it's got a lot of resources, Uh, about older people's care, Um, out of Australia. [00:05:30] Um, But what? Like I said, what's very interesting is in Victoria, it's the, uh, gay and lesbian, um, policies in older adult care are starting to be visible, which is really quite exciting. Um, as those of us that do research in New Zealand always salivate because they seem to have so much money to do research in Australia, they don't think they do, but we think they do. Um and so they've really been able to to pour [00:06:00] some resources into looking into the into this, uh, issue quite extensively. Of course, as you would imagine there is. They've found a lot of homophobia. And now the next step and the next step for us as well is to say, OK, so we know this now. What do we do now? What's the next step? So there's a lot of education, uh, materials coming out of Australia There's a lot of, uh, really interesting, uh, materials for, um, families and and, uh uh, the gay and lesbian people [00:06:30] and their and their loved ones. Um, so it's really quite an exciting time. That way, it's it's it's just taken off. In the last few years of that, our advocacy is shifting to older gays and lesbians. There's a huge, uh, section of advocacy now looking towards older gays and lesbians. It's quite interesting. There's another thing out of Australia that I quite like, which is a visiting service. Um, so it's a very, [00:07:00] uh, specific gay and lesbian visiting service. Um, and that is I think that's something that we could do here in New Zealand. Uh, you know, there's a lot of gays and lesbians that want to give back and want to contribute. Um, and, uh, so I'm excited about that possibility as well. I think it's a great model in Australian policy. What are the things that are kind of coming up now that that actually deal with rain by people? Well, it's interesting because what it's being seen as is [00:07:30] what you mentioned earlier and I I fully support this. It's not about sex. It's actually about culture that we have a different culture. We we a subculture, if you will. But we we do have a My relationship with my partner is, uh, it has a different cultural connotation than a heterosexual couple. Who I who I who I'm friends with, how I live my life. What do I do? For the most part, it's fairly straightforward and boring. [00:08:00] But for them there are issues that need to be acknowledged in that I have a different cultural context because of my relationships. Um, and so what you're seeing is the policy is focused on. Not only do we have cultural education about ethnic groups, but we also have cultural education about, um, gays and lesbians. And that's, I think, a hugely positive thing. For instance, rather than um not mentioning that homophobia is not OK, it's now part [00:08:30] of cultural policy that racism is isn't OK, but either is homophobia. So I think that's the exciting part. Are there other specific things that you can think of in policy that have kind of come up in terms of, like, protections or not? Not specifically yet. Other than of course, uh, there are specific policies about nondiscrimination for, uh, homosexuals, which is, um, I think appropriate. [00:09:00] But it other than that, um, which I think is a huge step forward. Frankly, um, it there isn't anything specific. Other than that you mentioned earlier that, uh, there is homophobic attitudes in residential care in Australia. Where is that coming from? IE. Is it Is it? Is it? Is it residents? Well, it's interesting in the in the data that you see coming out of Australia, [00:09:30] there is certainly a lack of recognition of gay and lesbians. So that's the first thing. Um, and if they do talk about gays and lesbians in this research, I think like I said, it's moving. But in when this research was done a few years ago, um, it was a a, um they didn't see them as sexual beings, So therefore, yeah, they might be gay, but so what kind of thing? Um, [00:10:00] and also, uh, that that really the the biggest thing the the most striking thing that came out of most of this research is that we just they just don't see it. It's just completely invisible. Um, so the homophobic attitudes from the staff are about invisibility. But the other interesting thing, and we found it in our research, which I'll talk about shortly. But, um is it's not just the staff, it's the other residents. These are communal living situations. [00:10:30] And so if these older people who are all living together now were homophobic when they were young, they're homophobic when they are when they as they get older. And it's complicated by the fact that many people in residential aged care have memory issues, cognitive impairment. And, of course, as you get cognitive impairment. Often there's a disinhibition that comes with that, and so they're just not afraid to say what they wouldn't have said possibly a few years before in polite company. So there is, [00:11:00] uh, there. That is one of the issues that needs to be tackled as well, which is the homophobia homophobia of other residents and their families. And that's quite tricky. Um, it's different than a than a policy of employment is how do you have in a institution say there's no homophobia, including coming from residents, So it's It's quite tricky that way. I'm wondering from [00:11:30] your own perspective if you can, um, compare coming from the States. Uh, and what potentially was happening with kind of rainbow elders there? And when you came to New Zealand in the early two thousands? Look, I think it was I think we were all kind of in the same place. Um, one of the things that was starting to happen I left in 2002, and what was starting to happen was in San Francisco. Of course, there were, uh, organisations that were sprouting up [00:12:00] to do. It's more of a cohousing kind of situation where, uh, it was specifically for gays and lesbians, mostly gay men. I think it started in San Francisco. And so one of the things that's sprouting up a lot all over with all people that are ageing I hear this over and over again is that we're going to buy a property, and this is happening in Auckland as well. We're gonna buy a proper property we're going to. Then you buy, uh, an apartment in that property or a section of that property. And [00:12:30] then, uh, we'll live together, and then we'll hire in somebody, uh, for to take care of us as we age. This is an idea that's happening with gays and lesbians. It's an idea that is also happening with many other subgroups. Um, it's really interesting. In New Ze- in Auckland, there was a, uh, residential aged care facility that was just opened up specifically for Indian people. Um, there are residential aged care facilities, [00:13:00] although they're not specifically designated for Chinese people. It by default. They're mostly Chinese people. There is residential aged care facilities for Dutch people. There's, um so what I think we'll see and what I think is happening is either informal arrangements which are happening or when people get really quite impaired. I think you will see, uh, facilities that are specifically for gays and lesbians, which is quite interesting. [00:13:30] The the interesting thing also from an older person's, you know, health care perspective is that congregate living certainly is is has huge advantages, and we see it in villages. We see the research coming out of retirement villages and so I. I think it's a great idea where it's going to be quite tricky is that as people start to age and they start to get in cognitive impairment, the th the three things that put people in residential age [00:14:00] care that put them into nursing homes are either their cognitive impairment gets to the point where they're disruptive or they get lost or they, you know, it's it's it's too difficult they can't stay where they are without extreme 24 hour care. Uh, incontinence is another issue that, um, it it just is one of the things that if you can't control your incontinence, you can't stay independent. And the third thing is falling in mobility. If you're not able to be mobile and and you're falling [00:14:30] and and that's a real issue, you usually need some kind of 24 hour care situation. Now, what's going to be interesting for all of those groups that say, Look, we're just going to get together as mates and we're gonna hire somebody in, and it'll be great is that there will come a time when somebody gets one of these three things or a combination of those three things, and they're not able to stay independent in this unit. That has been, uh, informally put together. And it'll be interesting [00:15:00] to see how that ha. What happens with that arrangement? We see it in, uh, retirement villages now, um, There comes a point in a retirement village independent apartment living where the management has to say, You're not independent anymore, and then you need to go into residential age care 24 hour care. You'll see this with these other arrangements as well, and it gets really, really difficult. It's very difficult for, uh, friends and family of the people that, um are starting to [00:15:30] lose capacity and lose mobility and lose continence. Uh, it's devastating for the person because they thought they were gonna be here for the rest of their lives kind of thing, um, and so that I think will require as these organisations start springing up, uh, which is great. Uh, it will require some real adept management and negotiation and maybe even some [00:16:00] outside help. You know, to really manage that situation, more and more of us don't have Children. Uh, so again, it'll be it will will see different arrangements of living that we never have seen before in older people, groups of people without Children living together. And it's going to get tricky when you can't live independently anymore. So so in the States in the early two thousands were, uh, rainbow people visible in elder [00:16:30] care. It was like in New Zealand, where it was no sexuality. You know, if it isn't heterosexual, it wasn't acknowledged. You know, for the most part, uh, even even unmarried couples would be was a bit of a conundrum, you know, and unmarried heterosexual couples was a conundrum. Like, what do you do with this? Um, there are long discussions about, um, in when I left the states. And even here we're again. We've [00:17:00] moved a long way. But when I was in the States, uh, you have somebody two people in a facility. One person's married but doesn't remember they're married. The other person, uh, is single. They start up a relationship. I mean, it happens. These sorts of kind of dilemmas happen all the time. Some families are like, fine if they're happy, some families are absolutely not. So it is. It is. Uh, homosexuality [00:17:30] was, uh, absolutely invisible. And sexuality is was difficult. We're about to look at your research, but I'm just wondering, um, prior to the research that you've just done, Has there been other research in New Zealand looking at older care for rainbow people? Yeah. Um, just a little bit. Um, Stephen Neville and Mark Hendrickson. Um, did, uh, a survey of older people as part of part of the lavender project. Um, and, uh, they [00:18:00] I think, uh, did surveys of about 2000 people. Um, in 2010, it was published. Um, it's a good piece of research. Um, and it's interesting It wasn't specifically about residential aged care, but was about their kind of experience of older care. Um, and they certainly describe homophobia was quite rife in their experiences. Um, but other than that, to my knowledge and I might be wrong, But to my knowledge, there hasn't [00:18:30] been a lot about older people's care. There's been, uh, uh, some really interesting work through, um, Auckland DH B. Where they, uh in 2011, I believe it was they had a conference specifically about gay and lesbian issue health issues. And part of that conference was about ageing, which was very encouraging. So you're you are starting to see it happen. Um, but really before 2010, there wasn't much happening. [00:19:00] I don't think in New Zealand that I I'm aware of, and hopefully somebody will correct me If I'm wrong, let's then talk about your research and and, you know, what were you looking at and and why? Well, what we We were funded by the rule foundation and the, um uh, rule foundation, uh, funds, um, outline and some other, uh, important, uh, initiatives for gay and lesbian people in New Zealand. G LPT I people in New Zealand. [00:19:30] Um, and they were interested in starting to look at older adult issues. We talked a lot about you know what to focus on. Um, there's certainly older adult issues in the community for people living independently. We wanted to start with something that was fairly contained that we could do something about, Uh, one of the things that they were very interested in is, um, I had done some previous work with residential aged care, looking at guidelines [00:20:00] for care, um, guidelines for very specific things about what older people need. Um, and so they were interested in looking at a a model like that for guidelines for care. Uh, gay and lesbian people in residential aged care. So what we had to start with is, uh So what are the issues in residential aged care for gay and lesbian people. Now, we chose to start with the staff. Um, I think the next part of this would be to, um, interview, uh, older [00:20:30] gays and lesbians. But we we start with the staff of residential aged care. And Gary Bellamy designed this, um uh, study. He's gone back to London, unfortunately for us, but, uh, he he did a great job with this study, and what he used is he went into seven residential aged care facilities. Um, and the staff there, which included caregiving staff, are in staff, Um, and even, uh, cooks and those kinds of things. And he presented two scenarios, uh, about gay and lesbian people in [00:21:00] residential aged care and then, uh, elicited their responses. Uh, it was a qualitative, uh, interview type thing, focus group about their feelings about, uh, and their perceptions of these two scenarios. Um, what we found was very interesting. Um, first of all there is. There was a several, uh, comments about. Well, if my daughter or son were gay or lesbian, I would have a real problem with that. Um, [00:21:30] it would be real difficult for me, but in work, I'm OK with it, you know. So there was no, uh, Steven Neville just submitted a paper because he was in on our team as well. Um, and his His premise from his thinking is that if they're saying that they're homophobic within their own lives, but saying that they're not going to be homophobic to older people, how can you actually do that? We do know from other research that if people [00:22:00] are homophobic, they're homophobic, you know, so that the the and gay and lesbian people GL BT I people are, um, hugely sensitive to knowing if somebody's homophobic. And so it is interesting that that was one of the things that came out of the research. The the The other thing that came out of the research was that if people knew somebody that was gay, it's the same old stuff. If [00:22:30] they like, they talked about somebody who had was on a in a leadership position or, uh, nurses that were gay or lesbian that the staff knew in those situations. It's like, Oh, no, he's OK, you know, he's OK. So, um, it's that personal connection. So in the abstract, it was a little less like, Yes, I'm OK with it in kind of a professional way. But when they knew somebody that was gay or lesbian, it's like, Oh, yeah, they're fine, you know? [00:23:00] So again, it it goes back to the same old stuff. Um, So what? What they also discussed, uh, from these scenarios, which is also very interesting was they relayed stories of residents homophobia. So, uh, one, group talked about they had a gay man move in, uh, to the facility, and one of the residents said, Oh, we got a poof dough over here in the dining room trying to get again. It's about [00:23:30] I think it's about, uh, previous homophobia that was just absolutely accepted. And these guys are in their eighties and nineties, and so it hasn't gone away. Um, and also about a disinhibition that with cognitive impairment, you don't have the niceties sometimes that you would normally, um and so that was a concern of the of the staff of So how do we do that? You know, what do we do with residents that are homophobic? Um, we've [00:24:00] tried to put together from that initial research which, like I said, um, Steven's written up a paper. It's been submitted. Um, we should hear back soon. It should be published soon. Um, so the next step for us was the rule foundation came back to us after that original research. They were quite happy with it. We were happy with it. It was interesting. Um, and then they said, OK, so now what we'd like you to do is come up with some guidelines and a way to disseminate these findings. So we have developed, [00:24:30] um, some guidelines we've used. There were some excellent guidelines developed, uh, by Dianne and, um, Anna Birkenhead through the, um, for mental health, um, services for, um, dealing with, uh, you know, appropriate care of people with, uh, uh, GL BT. I people really well received. Uh, very well done. We we've been working with outline, uh, as well with [00:25:00] developing. Um, kind of a way forward from the research where we are now is we have a work group. Oh, sorry. Let me go back. So, we, um we got a second grant from Rural Foundation to develop the guidelines and develop a dissemination plan. So we are now, uh, working with, uh, another project manager named Lisa Williams. who's doing a fantastic job. Um, helping us are the the focus of [00:25:30] this phase of the project is good design and a good strategy for disseminating guidelines in residents aged care, it is, You know, there's, um, 650 residential aged care facilities in in, uh, New Zealand. There's 100 and 52 in Auckland. Um, so it's not without its challenges, but, uh, we're working with industry experts and, uh, health care experts, And, [00:26:00] uh, so we're coming up with, uh, uh, the guidelines. We're also doing, uh, part of that that came became really clear to us. It's not only guidelines for the staff, but there's also a part of it that we need to do kind of a campaign to say These are the issues, or this is an issue in residential aged care. And so part of that is, um, we're developing a short kind of, uh, video, um, of [00:26:30] to that, we can take around to different meetings to it's like a It's like a A two or three minute, um uh, campaign kind of thing. Like this is, uh this is Mr Jones. He's in residential age care, so it kind of says a 10 scenario, and then at the end, we we talk, talk about the things they need to be aware of, um, in, uh, GL BT I issues in residential aged care. We're hoping to take this around to things like, um [00:27:00] age concern and to the Aged Care Association of New Zealand and to, um other large organisations that provide care to government organisations to DH BS so that we can start to get some traction. Uh, as far as policies, you know, because that's the next thing for us is there's on the ground staff education. And then there's another level, which is the policy that provides the funding to provide the staff education. Uh, so we just we [00:27:30] quickly realised that there are those two prongs needed to be approached when we go through this. So what we're hoping to do at the end of this phase is to have the guidelines completed a short, uh, in education session that can be inserted into any, uh, cultural education. Uh, that's happening in residential aged care. So it is the GL BT unit, if you will, Um, and we've had some great, uh, work [00:28:00] from uh, some people that work in residential age care that help us with that to help us put that together. Um, and then we'll have this short kind of video presentation that we can we'll use as part of the education piece. But we'll also use it as a campaign piece so that we can, um, move that forward. Um, we're hoping to have that done by the end of June. I It's getting the end of June very quickly, but we're working really hard on it. Um, and then the next step for us is probably to [00:28:30] seek more funding to do the roll out. You know, how are we gonna roll this out? So we'll have the materials to roll out. The next phase is to say so. Let's roll it out. We need funding to roll it out. So, um, I feel quite positive. We have, uh, uh, a member from, uh, the funding and planning. Uh uh, section of Auckland. DH B on our steering group. He's, uh, Robert Ford. He's been fantastic. Um, he's given us some great ideas [00:29:00] about how to influence, uh, governments and DH BS and that kind of thing. So we're we're going down that road are one of our goals. One of our lofty aims is to get, uh, a policy change, you know, to have it a very explicit, clear policy. Just like, uh, all the other policies that we have, um, in that you need to be You need to understand, uh, [00:29:30] the ethics of care for older people that you need to understand cultural safety. But that includes GL BT. I issues. Um, so it's just part of what we do as we train you up to work in resident care. It's just what we do. That that's part of it. So we're working on it, and and I'm I'm pretty optimistic. I'm very optimistic because anything that happens in Australia, New Zealand likes to follow, so we'll probably, um I'm I'm thrilled that Australia's took a kind of a step ahead [00:30:00] of us in some ways. One thing we haven't covered off is actually, um, who is actually involved. Could you tell me who who's involved in this research? Sure. Uh, Stephen Park from the Royal Foundation approached me early last year, uh, to see if we were interested in doing this, um, through my work with the University of Auckland and school and nursing. Um, and, um, I was I thought it was a great opportunity. Um, And then I collaborated with, uh, Gary Bellamy, who [00:30:30] led the project the first phase of the project. He wrote up the methods and and, uh, basically led the research. Gary, uh, works for the school of nursing at that point. Unfortunately, he's gone back to London. He's still involved, but, um, kind of peripherally, um, the other members of the research group, uh, included Stephen Neville, Um uh, as well as Jeff Adams from Massey University. Uh, Nigel George and Sonia Caron, Uh, from Auckland. DH [00:31:00] B, Um, and myself, uh, Jan Wilson from the University of Auckland. Uh, and, uh, we've also brought on Lisa Williams, who's who's leading the, uh, second, uh, phase of this project now through the school of nursing. Um uh, so that's the the research group, a collaboration between Massey University and the University of Auckland. How easy is it to pull or bring people together for this type of research? Actually, [00:31:30] um, I was really pleased. Uh, researchers inherently are busy. All of us are busy. We've got about five different hats that we're wearing at any one time. Um, but there was a lot of goodwill because we we see this as a a hugely high priority for gay and lesbian issues. And those of us all work in different ways in with older people's health. So to be able to focus specifically [00:32:00] on, uh, GLBD I issues is it was actually quite a joy. So it wasn't that tough to get people together. I have to say it was It's been quite fun. And what about funding for this kind of research? Oh, that's another discussion. Funding in general in New Zealand is quite slim. Um, it's getting it feels like it's getting slimmer. I have to say, um, it's It's always a challenge for all of us academics to get funding the funding for us. Uh, that's been absolutely crucial. [00:32:30] And we absolutely could not have done it. Is the Rule foundation and their vision? Um and so we we've been extremely grateful for them. They absolutely, uh, see the need. So one of the questions is, Well, where do we get other money to do this kind of research? Um, any money that you get for GL. BT I Research is fairly slim. It's not big money. Um, but, uh, you know, we really it's been the real [00:33:00] foundation, and we'll we'll keep looking for other sources of funding. But that's been the main thing. Just looking at the research and you mentioned earlier about two scenarios. What were those two scenarios? One, that's a good question. Uh, one was about, uh, a gay and lesbian couple. Uh, sorry, a lesbian couple. And the other one was about a a gay male couple. Um, what's interesting? That was The other thing about the research that I found really interesting is that there's also more homophobia towards gay men than there is lesbians. Uh, so [00:33:30] what some of the participants said was that well, it's OK to see women hug and kiss because they're kind of we're kind of used to that women are much more affectionate, but it's when you get two blokes together, is what they said, Um, that they found it more difficult, which I found really interesting. So we did use two scenarios that way just to try to elicit the different views. When you were questioning staff, did you also question them about their own sexual identity and gender. We did, um, but not much. [00:34:00] Uh, it really we tried to focus on these two scenarios. Now, we did have one situation where a staff member who had not been out to other people, uh, came up to Gary afterward and said, Look, I'm lesbian and and actually felt because of some of the comments was pretty convinced why she needed to stay in the closet, you know? So it really it's [00:34:30] not only safety about the residents, it's safety about the people that work with them as well. Uh, you know, being safe in that environment. Um, so we found that interesting. There they were, Um, and this was particularly in caregivers. You know, caregivers unfortunately, are, um, the lowest on the on the totem pole, if you will. They get paid very little, um, and so they they wouldn't have the same, uh, empowerment [00:35:00] to be out. I don't think as some other members of of the staff RN, for instance, or or managers or that kind of thing. Um, the other issue, um, with caregivers and we found this in our research as well is that many caregivers are, uh, Pacific Island and Pacific Island. People are very religious, and they talked about their religious feelings in these interviews that it's actually against my religion. I feel quite strong about that. I can deal with it here [00:35:30] at work because I'm professional. But in my own personal life, I have a real problem with, um with homosexuality. So that was quite interesting. Um, yeah, What are the differences between, say, like registered nurses and and and so registered nurses? Um, have a three year degree? Um, it's a bachelor's degree or the vocational training, Um, in the old days, but recently it's a It's a bachelor's degree in [00:36:00] residential care. It's quite interesting. Um, we just did another survey for another project, Uh, and where we surveyed staff of residential aged care and 90% of the staff that we surveyed were, uh, from a different country had English as a second language. So one of the characteristics of our NS in residential age care, residential age care are that they are from different cultures, which also adds [00:36:30] another dimension. When we start talking about GL BT I issues with caregivers, they may have, uh, they are given training, but it's a There's levels of training. They might have as little training as a day or two, or they might have done, um, a more extensive training. Um, and they do. It sometimes is reflected in their pay, which is nice, but not always, um, so that they we call them an unskilled [00:37:00] work workforce. They don't have any formal qualifications except for what they gain on the job and through, um, correspondence courses, usually or or conferences and that kind of thing. And are caregivers in a day to day situation? Are they the ones that are with the residents the most? Absolutely. They're they're crucial. It's a real I find it really interesting because the caregivers, um, do the day to day work. They [00:37:30] don't have a lot of formal skills and education, but they absolutely are the eyes and ears and the relationship with the older people and their families. Um, there are some amazing, amazing caregivers out there. I can't tell you how I have. I love teaching caregivers. It's one of my most favourite thing to teach. Um, favourite people to teach is caregivers because they just soak it up and they do the job because they love [00:38:00] the job. It's not paid well. It's paid very poorly. It's, um recently, there, Judy McGregor did a, uh, a paper out of the Human Rights Commission talking about how the pay and the conditions of work for caregivers because it's mostly a women's job is a women's issue that you wouldn't pay anybody else that low wage for the work that they do if it wasn't such a women's profession. [00:38:30] So there's lots of issues, Um, but they are fantastically good hearted good people who are trying to do a very good job in a very difficult situation. Um, so I can't say enough about how great the caregivers are, but yes, they are the mainstay. So if we're going to roll this out, if we're going to talk about G, LP D, I issues, we've got to consider that that we start with caregivers, in my opinion, caregivers and nurses. But nurses [00:39:00] are just They're usually supervise the caregivers. We have to take into consideration that they are often from a different culture, um, which adds another level of complexity to what we're doing. Um, and we also have to add into that that they don't have a lot of formal qualifications so that we need to present it in such a way that it's really useful for them. Um, and not very academic, which academics are not not very good at, um so all of those challenges [00:39:30] and and it it may conflict with their own personal religious, cultural beliefs. Um, and that's another issue for us to to discuss with them about. You can still have those cultural beliefs that's in your religious beliefs, and that's fine. But you have to set them aside. When you're working with people here, it's different, you know, this is this is not acceptable. This is just like ageism. Racism is not acceptable. This is not [00:40:00] acceptable. Um, the other thing, that with caregivers, uh, I will say, and also nurses from other cultures. They experience a lot of, uh, racism themselves from from, uh, residents and families. Um and so that's also a challenge for them. Um, so it's It's a very complex, very interesting me of issues. Um, yeah. I'm imagining [00:40:30] that that kind of connection between the caregiver and the resident that the the must or you'd hope there'd be some kind of empathy, And I'm wondering, can you talk about what empathy means in this kind of situation? Uh, that's what I love about caregivers more than anything is that they are, for the most part, women good women who, uh, show they're caring amazingly well. [00:41:00] I mean, they just the intimacy of care that they provide. Um, they do it in a in a very respectful way. In my my experience, for the most part, um, and that they they do this kind of work because they care about older people, you know, that's why they do this kind of work. There's other jobs that they could do, but they stick the ones that stick with it for a long time. Um, are good hearted people who care about older people [00:41:30] and you can see it when they're caring for them. They want to make sure that they're presented well, that they look good, that they're that they're gentle, that they're kind. Um, I I've just seen the most amazing, uh, acts of kindness with caregivers, actually. So when you look back on, say that example, where an older gentleman comes in and somebody says that one of the other residents says, Oh, there's a in the room or whatever. I mean, how do you How do you respond to [00:42:00] that? That's right. Well, that's what we're That's what we're trying to work out with these guidelines and some suggestions is because a lot of times people would let it go because they don't know what to say, you know, So what we are hoping to do is to frame it in such a way to say that just like we don't allow racism. And just like we don't allow other forms of bad behaviour it it is appropriate for you to say to this other resident, we actually don't say that here, you know, we actually don't. This is not what we do here. So setting the boundaries, [00:42:30] so giving them the permission and the and the tools to be able to then say to other people, that's we don't you know, we don't We're not racist and we're not homophobic, and that's not what we do here. Um, I think I think guidelines are really important. I think education is really important to otherwise it's just accepted. Unless they're educated to say no, actually that's not acceptable. So and [00:43:00] also the whole idea of of, of trust, like, I mean, even with the staff member saying, I don't want to come out at work because of you know, some of the the comments that I've heard tonight. Um but as residents, I mean, if you've grown up in a situation where homosexuality was illegal, absolutely well, absolutely. That's that is what that's part of the. The education that we need to include in that is that don't forget that a lot of these guys don't want to talk about it. A lot of women and men who grew up in the closet, [00:43:30] it is ridiculously terrifying for them, um, for other people to find out. You know, um, so we have to make a safe environment so that they feel safe to be able to talk about it. Do you think that people go back into the closet when they go into residential care? I've heard that, um, I yeah, I haven't had that experience, but I've certainly heard stories of other people doing that. We're really desperately trying to make a situation where [00:44:00] people don't have to do that. I will say also the other thing that's changing is our society is changing. You know, um, I have a civil union. Uh, you know, uh, we were I was talking to a friend yesterday about getting married. I'm going to a lesbian wedding and, you know, very soon And you know, the the society is changing. And I, I do think with the change in society, it will also [00:44:30] you'll see it in residential aged care. Um, I So I think we're in a different era. I think we're moving along, so we just I feel like we need to give the staff the tools that they need so that they can move along with the way society is changing. So, in your personal experience, have you come across LGBTI people actually in residential care that are openly out? Uh, I have, um And for the most part, uh, people just accepted them for who they were. Um, so, [00:45:00] uh, certainly within our service, there's a huge respect. And, um, I think respect is the way to say it. Uh uh, that I've seen that the nurses I work with, uh, senior nurses with geriatric clinical nurse specialists. Um, and they are hugely, um, respectful. And, um and and inclusive in the care that that person and those people that, uh, how [00:45:30] they were treated and how they were needed, uh, how they needed care. So I haven't again. That's that's the tricky bit. Is that yes, there is homophobic ideas about, uh, because of religion and those kinds of things. The research that we did certainly expressed some of those concerns, but overall, the sense we got was that staff members understood [00:46:00] that it was not OK to be homophobic. Um, the question for us is to then move it to the next level of Yeah. OK, so you know, this is not OK. What about actively? Um uh, being a, uh, advocate for this person who is gay. So not just pretending like it's not there but actually act actively advocating if other residents aren't, you know, great about it and or whatever. So so that we give them the tools now that so [00:46:30] we can talk about it and give them the tools that they need. So but yeah, overall, I think people have been actually really good. So And when somebody is kind of out in a residential situation, I mean, does that mean things like holding hands or kissing a same sex partner. That was one of the things that themes that came out in the research. Is that out of sight? Out of mind. So, yes, it's OK for you to be gay, but not in public. And so if you do it behind closed doors, [00:47:00] But that's true for any sexual activity. Uh, for the most part, um, but certainly as I was saying earlier, the staff thought it was OK for women to cuddle, but it was not OK for men to cuddle, Um, and that I think we need to We have some ways to go on that one, so they can do whatever they want behind closed doors is what was said, but not, you know, kissing or hand holding or anything like that in public. So, I mean, if somebody was doing that, I mean, they they might [00:47:30] not agree with it, but I mean, would they stop it? No, they wouldn't. They wouldn't stop it. But they were, But other residents would would have issues with it. Families might have issues. I mean, the family, the family factor in residential aged care is huge. Um, So the again I, I guess. What? I? I want them to understand that that it's not OK to allow other people to say negative things [00:48:00] about that, that they you know, that there is a it's not tolerated, you know that. But, um, yeah, as long as it's out of sight, they're cool. Cool with it. But if it was in public, it just made them uncomfortable. So that's like, Oh, I wouldn't want to see that, you know, kind of thing. Do you think the, um, results of of of this this kind of research would change depending on which location you were in the country. So, like, I mean, if you're in more rural parts or we don't know, um and that's one [00:48:30] of the questions that we have is that we are in an urban centre. We did it because it was convenient and we could do it. Um, I think it would be very interesting, particularly as we start rolling this out to see how it is, how it plays out in other parts of the country. Um, yeah, be very interesting in rural areas in particular. Do you have a kind of a gut reaction or gut thought. Well, I again one of the things about rural areas, uh, in [00:49:00] residential aged care is a lot of people know everybody. So the people that are working in the facilities know the people that are coming into facilities because they used to be their teacher and you know that kind of thing. So it it's unusual. It's unusual for people not to know each other, So it would be unusual not to know if somebody was out in the community. It would be in a rural area. They would know that they were out in the in the facility. It's for those people that were were not out in the community. [00:49:30] They probably would. It would be difficult for them to be out in the facility as well, because it's the same community. So I do think it's a It's a bit different. It depends on how how open they were able to be in their lives in general again. In rural areas, um, people often take people at face value, and if they get to know you and you're OK, it's just like anything else. Then it's like, Oh, yeah, it's just like she's she's like that, but it's OK. You know, She and Fran that's [00:50:00] fine, you know? So, yeah. So we've talked about, um, kind of gay and lesbian and and how they may be treated differently in in those kind of care situations. What about transgender? That's a whole another discussion. And and I appreciate that because that that is even pushing the norms that much further. Um and I just don't know. One of the things that we are including in the guidelines and in our discussion [00:50:30] is is transgender people. Uh and I do think that they're going to have a harder time, unfortunately, because it's we're just that much behind, you know, getting that acceptable. I think in the future, it's it's also going to be a much more accepted thing. But, um, that is part of I think there needs to be a lot of education about that, that there is a potential for huge, [00:51:00] uh, discrimination that way Now. The tricky part is as you start to lose cognition and frankly, for residential aged care. These days, it's really 70% of people have some kind of cognitive impairment. It's really for people who cognitively cannot stay in the community anymore. Um will there, You know what? How will that manifest as a as a, uh, [00:51:30] transgender or, you know, how is that going to manifest? What is that gonna look like? Will? If I can't tell you what I want, will people assume what I want? You know, that kind of thing? Um, I think there's some I think there's a lot we don't know about that yet. And I do think it's it's a much more problematic area. Mhm outside of the the residential care facilities you've You've also got other organisations, community organisations [00:52:00] who are advocating on behalf of older people. What do those community advocates? Um what what role do they have with with rainbow people? Well, it hasn't been explicit. I don't think at this point what We've talked with age concern just briefly. They're very open to, um, working with us. We see some kind of collaboration with outline and the older, uh, the other older advocates, like grey power age concern [00:52:30] those kinds of things so that they have a a resource that they can go go into, uh, so that they can tap into a like outline that has a whole aged kind of part to it, and I think that's for the Rule foundation. That's also what they're interested in. Um, I. I do think it's fairly invisible in the mainstream, uh, older adult advocacy groups at the moment, but we're trying to, you know, put those together a little bit more [00:53:00] and we like I said, I hope we hope to do it through outline. I think I think outline has a huge role to play. One of the things that I'm really interested in looking at further is I love this idea of a visitor and age Concern already has, uh, friendly visitors and peer support, that kind of thing. I'd love to have, uh, a section where it's just, uh, older adults, gay and lesbian older, the GL BT I older adults that are doing the visiting for for gay and lesbian people. And I think in the future we'll we'll get [00:53:30] there so we'll have a kind of a, uh, specific intervention. That is, uh, volunteers, gay and lesbian volunteers that are visiting gay and lesbian people meals on wheels, for instance. It'd be great if we could do something like that. So looking forward when you look to your own future, I mean, do you Do you plan for your own kind of ageing? That's a great question. Um, I do. And personally, I think about this the [00:54:00] I think about the society I live in now. OK, so I look back on the eighties, the good old eighties when we were young, you know? And it was so fun being a subgroup, it was just such a blast. Um, but we're not a We're not a subculture as much anymore because we've all worked really hard to come out, And we've all worked really hard to have, you know, to get civil union now, marriage and, uh, get equal rights. And, um and so in a way, it's kind of sad, but we're [00:54:30] not as the subculture. How fun that was is kind of disappeared somewhat because we're now in our jobs in our suburbs and our doing our stuff, and I and I'm out to everybody. It's not, you know, it's to me. It it doesn't, you know, I don't have I don't experience a lot of homophobia. Personally, I just don't feel it, You know, um, every occasional once in a while, you know, you think, Oh, they must have a problem. But you don't think about it. [00:55:00] So I guess for me, as I age, I think about the society I'm in will be ageing with me. And frankly, I absolutely can see myself in a village at when I'm 85 you know, can't quite make it at home anymore. But I'll be in a village with the people that I live with now, and some will be gay and some will be straight. And some will be, you know, transgendered. And some be, you know, it'll be the same society. So I personally, uh, I don't I don't look to a just a lesbian, [00:55:30] only situation. I actually look at that. I'll be with a wide variety of groups and part of them will be lesbian, and part of them will be not lesbian and gay. And, um yeah, so I guess that's I guess that's what I'm saying is I don't feel like I need a separate place. I just need to be supported just like anybody else as long as I can in the community. I'd love to have lesbian and gay visitors if I needed peer support in the community. [00:56:00] Um, but once I need villages or residential care, I'll just be with everybody else. Frankly, just treat me good. You know, it it seems to me that, um, I yeah, I, I certainly take the point of that. Basically, it's the society that you're in now is basically going to be reflected in your kind of aged care. How quickly do you think those changes will happen in aged care in terms of, um, you know, acceptance of kind of homosexuality? Actually, I think it'll be very similar to [00:56:30] how it is with racism. You know, if you think back in the 19 sixties in the States, I'm from the States, you know, we you know, we're looking 50 years ago, 50 years ago, racism was OK. Believe me, I you know, I. I lived in the South for a while. It's still fairly OK, um, so racism is still with us, but it's not OK. It's not acceptable. It's not acceptable in institutional situations. Um, and I think homophobia in another 30 years when I get there, [00:57:00] Uh, it'll be the same. I don't I think that homophobia will be just as unacceptable. And it is almost there now as racism is to us now, um and so if we can kind of have some part in getting that education as part of that where it's not OK, and these are your resources that you need to do to to combat that, Um, I think it will. I think I think we'll look back at, uh, homosexual law Reform, for instance, [00:57:30] and think, really, did we have to fight that hard for that? It'll just be an anathema, I think, to the next generation. It already is. I think, to the next generation and then to the next generation of you've got to be kidding me. That was never OK, so I think that that's what you'll see in residential aged care in the future as well.

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TITLE: Scott Johnston profile
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VOICES: Scott Johnston
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland City Council; Auckland Pride Festival; Bruce Kilmister; Christianity; Creative New Zealand; David Hay; Express (magazine); Frankie Knuckles; HIV / AIDS; Hero (Auckland); Johnny Givins; Michael Parmenter; Mika X; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Pride parade (Auckland); Rex Halliday; Rule Foundation; Scott Johnston; Strangely Normal (Auckland); Sydney Mardi Gras; TV3; Warwick Broadhead; Wellington; Whangarei; arts; bisexual; coming out; community; dance; death; discrimination; drag; family; finances; friends; gay; homosexual law reform; internet; lesbian; marching boys; marriage; media; peer support; prevention; safe sex; sponsorship; support; transgender; volunteer
DATE: 12 May 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Scott talks about coming out in the 1980s and being one of the creators of the Hero parade - which at its peak in the late 1990s had audiences of hundreds-of-thousands.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So, um, I was born and bred in and, um, did a commerce degree down at Lincoln College, which was a very sort of, um, bastion of mail. I don't know what, but it's an interesting place to do a commerce degree and basically arrived back in Auckland, Um, and, um, at the age of 21 and started a career in property, um, management, valuation and consultancy. So that's my kind of original [00:00:30] career as a in the twenties. Um, Then I It's kind of interesting how it leads into hero, because I I worked in that area for about, um, seven or eight years. And then I, um I'd actually come out of a marriage, believe it or not. And, um, And then I fell manly in love with Michael Palmer. And, um, I decided to go to shift to Wellington and manage Michael's dance company [00:01:00] because he was in Wellington at that time, and I decided to, um, cut up my credit card. I was on a fairly good income in those days. I cut up my credit card through my kind of, you know, consultancy, property consultancy job, and turn off to Wellington to, you know, run around on a push bike and manage a dance company for a quarter of the income that I was earning up here. So it was kind of an interesting introduction into gay. Um Well, uh, you know, into kind [00:01:30] of a more of a gay lifestyle, an arts lifestyle and an event management lifestyle. I just want to rewind just a wee bit and pick up on that. The idea that that that you were married and then kind of come into the kind of, um, a gay relationship tell me, how did that how did that happen? Um, look, it's it's, you know, it's It was just sort of like it was what It was the early eighties that I left university. [00:02:00] So I think I, um, came out of university in 79 or 80 or something like that, and it just kind of I just kind of led. I just I just fell into a relationship with a woman that just led to staying in the relationship that lead to marriage and without being, you know, fully kind of thinking or conscious of who I was. Just let let let life just unfold without being rely deliberate in terms [00:02:30] of who I was and what I wanted to do. But it just, you know, within a period of time I realised that, you know, I had to either, Um, I I had I had to leave this relationship and and, you know, and be who I am or go mad. So I, um it was quite interesting because I was working. Um, and I I was I was actually leasing two double seven, which was one of the first shopping centres in in Newmark. And I was a leasing agent there, and I met a couple of gay guys, [00:03:00] um, who were opening up a cookie shop, and I realised they were gay. I was probably the first gay guys I actually knew, and, um, and I was kind of questioning my whole sort of scenario around being, you know, being in the marriage of being gay. And I said to Darryl, I said, Look, if I ever needed to, um, escape and get away, can I come and stay with you guys? And Darryl said Sure, not a problem. And there was literally, like, two nights later that I just I just basically declared my situation to my to my [00:03:30] wife and got out of the car, got in the car and went to Darryl's. And I remember being in a car, and I remember being completely overjoyed. Um, I was devastated in terms of you know, what? I had what I was going through and what I was putting someone else through. Like it just that was that was pretty tough, but realised that I felt like I'd, you know, I'd I'd I'd been released from something. What age were you then? Probably 26. So I was a late starter, but [00:04:00] it was tough. It was on the toughest periods of my life. Um, Darryl, um, and his partner were incredibly good to me. They, um they let me stay with him for, like, three or four months. Um and then, you know, I just started recreating my own life from there. So can you paint a picture for me of what it was like to be, um, uh, recently out gay man in the late 19 eighties in Auckland. Ok, so so So when I came out, I was in my late twenties and, you know, I, I you know, I'd left a marriage, so that was pretty [00:04:30] traumatic. Um, and I was, you know, trying to discover myself. Um, and I do recall, you know, there was there was a There was a really nice bunch of guys that I fell in with, um who You know, um, were really supportive I. I found it. I found the transition quite hard because it was it was moving into an established sort of, um, group of gay guys that had their own humour and their own way of operating. And [00:05:00] and And? And I remember going to the first, um, dinner party with these guys there was about there was about eight of them, and I was just like, I came away being quite terrified of the whole situation because it was really full on in terms of just the the banter and the conversation and stuff like that. And it was something I really not experienced before. And I at that stage, I did question what I was doing, but, um, but the the gay life thing was pretty much, you know, about friends and coffee and dinner and stuff [00:05:30] like that. There was no Internet back then. You know, There literally was. No. Um well, there was no Internet, and, you know, I think mobile phones were there were big bricks at that stage, so you didn't really have a mobile phone. So you you know, your your social circle relied on making just friends and and going out for coffee and dinner and stuff like that. It was quite different. Um, and it's probably Yeah, that's how I found it. I didn't that the community [00:06:00] didn't seem too large. It seemed quite a small community. Um, and you kind of you did kind of feel that you probably knew most people in the community or or knew a lot of people in the community actually felt quite small to me. But whether that was true or not, I don't know. Do you think there was a greater feeling of community back then? Absolutely. There was, you know, back in the back. Then, um, you know, the a little [00:06:30] bit further. Just a couple of years when, after I came out, HIV started to emerge worldwide in New Zealand. And, um, you know, law reform had only just been approved. And so and and to come out was a huge thing for people to come out of work was a was a significant step. Um, so, you know, we all sort of we all sort of took strength from [00:07:00] strength from one another, one another, And we all looked after each other and looked out for each other. So, you know, we talked about community all the time, and, um, we operated as a community. And, you know, there were there were, um a lot of gay guys who probably didn't have a straight friend. Um, you know, they they they they operated within the gay community. Um, a lot of us did have straight friends and girlfriends and things like that, but there are a lot of people who just a huge [00:07:30] amount of focus, but just within the gay community. And I think that was absolutely fine. How did your family and friends, uh, react to you coming out? Um, I. I really had no problems coming out once I'd come out. Um, you know, um, my father was fantastic. Um, Mum was a little bit sort of. She took a while to get a head around it. Um, but she was fine after a while. Um, and my friends didn't really have an issue with it, so I never [00:08:00] really had a problem with that. It was interesting I hadn't had hadn't had. The only discrimination that I really think I've ever experienced in my entire life was when I was I was working, um, for a, um for a pretty big, um, property company and another property guy in another firm offered me a job and he was a gay man and had A And I had a gay partner, and I knew that he offered me a job and I declined it. I didn't want to go in that direction. [00:08:30] Um, interesting. A week, a week after that, after I declined that job, he phoned my boss and complained about me and told me, told my boss that I was gay. Now that was the only experience, and he was a gay man. So it was kind of like there was some real kind of, like, strange stuff going on on this, And he was I think, you know, it was almost like a little bit of a kind of a a revenge thing going on. Um, so that was kind of interesting. Um, but That's to be honest. That's the only, um, kind of [00:09:00] discrimination that I think I've ever experienced as being a gay man. How was it to be able to work like that? Um, it was quite difficult because I had only just come out like it was literally six months. Um, after I'd come out And, you know, I was still trying to deal with, you know, the the trauma of, you know, leaving my wife behind and recreating a new life. And, um, all the rest of that goes with that and and then having to sit down with my with my boss, and he confronted [00:09:30] me with this issue, and he was very good. He said the thing with for him was that that, um he was a real kind of team manager. And it's like, you know, these sorts of things shouldn't be secrets amongst a team. Um, so he was only coming from that angle. Um, so, you know, I was quite impressed with his angle. It didn't really cause me any problems with them. Um, I was just a bit horrified at a gay man outing me, um, in that way, because I'd basically turn turn, turn him down for a job. [00:10:00] You mentioned HIV and AIDS, and I'm wondering what was your first? Or can you recall your first, uh, knowledge of of HIV and AIDS? It's It is quite hard to recall now because it wasn't It wasn't like a, um you know, just as a a gay man out in the community. It wasn't like there was a a deliberate, defining moment that bang, this is what this is about. There was just some, um, [00:10:30] articles and some news stories coming out from, you know, places like San Francisco saying that that, um, gay men were, um, dying and no one knew what it was and they were trying to find a link and stuff like that. So there was just this sort of It was like a slow tide coming in. And, you know, it was hard to I can't actually recall when I went Oh, my gosh. What was what's going on here? I do the thing that the the most vivid thing in my memory was seeing a billboard that, [00:11:00] um, New Zealand AIDS Foundation had been created by that stage. Um, and there was this and I called it the Grim Reaper billboard. And it was a billboard of a actually of a man laying in bed dying from HIV. And he was completely emaciated. And it was, you know, it was a horrible, horrible image. And I think I remember seeing that billboard, and that really startled me thinking, you know, OK, this is this is kind of here now, um, and [00:11:30] but a lot of us, just we we were just leading our lives, you know? And we didn't know anyone that was positive. And no one was, You know, um, dying at that stage in New Zealand whilst it was happening fairly regularly in In, In, In America and other places. Um um, but when I remember seeing that billboard, I thought, OK, this is this is this is this is really for real. Um, and I think that was, um that was late 1980. Um, yeah, late 19 eighties. [00:12:00] There wouldn't have been too many years before. Actually, people did start dying. What was that like? Um uh, particularly, I think in the, um, you know, 1991 around that era. So when I, I really you know, when I went down to Wellington and lived with Michael. Um, that's when it really started to kick in because Michael was HIV positive. And, um, there are some interesting things we did. [00:12:30] Michael is doing quite a lot of media there, and there was quite a few stories that were happening. And, um, 60 minutes to a story on Michael and I and, um and I remember the they asked a question, and we were actually Michael and I, they did the interview and we were in. We were sitting on our bed, for goodness sake. I don't know if we're in bed or sitting on our bed, but it was kind of a strange place to do to do one of the interviews, and and the interviewer asked her, And she she basically accused me of putting myself at risk [00:13:00] by being in a relationship with Michael Palmer, um, and and Michael being the very smart man that he is turned around and said, Well, it's actually safer for Scott to know some to know his partner's status. Um, because then he can protect himself. So, you know, Michael Michael was very kind of onto it in those days. In terms of um, understanding the politic of HIV. And I learned a lot from Michael and that area, but it was kind of like it was kind of that was kind of confronting the The big thing when we went down to Wellington is that [00:13:30] Michael had a, um He established a support group. Um, he was part of a support group. I think it was. They had those 10 on 10 or 12 on 10 groups, and so there was about 10 or 12 guys that he was good friends with that were all positive, plus other friends of his that were positive. You know, within three years of me leaving Wellington, I would say eight or nine of those 12 guys were dead, and we were basically going [00:14:00] to a funeral every 2nd. 3rd month, we were visiting friends in hospital on a regular basis. Um, and they were just, you know, they were They were beautiful, young, fantastic men that were just dying. Um, and, you know, I can recall a friend of ours. Um, he was a lovely guy, and he was probably 27 and he ended up in hospital and we were doing a roster with them in terms of [00:14:30] just, you know, keeping them company. He didn't seem particularly sick, and we were all really exhausted. We all went out for dinner to, you know, have a have a break from it. And he died when we were at dinner, and the phone call was made and what was interesting is like, um of the dinner party. Eight of us were there. There was probably about four or five other guys who were HIV positive. And I turned around and I looked at them and I you know, the the utter desolation on their faces [00:15:00] because they were staring their future in their face in terms of what was what was where they were going. Basically, um, it was just, you know, it was that that was heartbreaking in terms of seeing that it was very sobering. Um, but that's how it was. And and that in itself created a you know, a much stronger sense of community. And, you know, we were all in this together, and we're all, you know, finding ways of battling it. Basically, um, [00:15:30] the other, you know, the other, the one of the one of the one of the New Zealand's most unsung heroes is a nurse, Um, Linda, who was the HIV nurse down in Wellington at the time? Her and Kylie. We became very close friends and, you know, still friends with Linda and Kylie. And, um, Linda and Kylie just nursed so many gay men and other other other guys that were, um, HIV positive for other reasons. Um, [00:16:00] and, you know, they they just they were extraordinary. Um, Linda, you'll never get. You'll never be able to talk to Linda about it. She's one of those people that that's what she did for 10 years. She now she now works for medicine, San Frontiers and works in in places in Africa mainly now and does amazing things that but you know what she used to do? She would go and live in in in the homes of gay men and nurse them until they died 24 7. It was extraordinary work. And that's what that's [00:16:30] what some people were doing. It was unbelievable what they were doing. Hm. Can you talk to me about the the kind of cumulative effect of going to a funeral every couple of months and and what that did to you. You had a, um You had a perspective on life that, um, was you've got to go out and really live this life. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't. I remember thinking this is You didn't were mucking. You went [00:17:00] messing about in life. You know, you've got to go out and and do something, have fun and and live every day. So there was kind of a bit of a fatalistic view in some respects. Um, and it sharpened who you were and what you did in life. Um, it really did, like, you know, um, I remember having a conversation with Michael and and, you know, we we had this bet that it wouldn't be fabulous if he lived till to the turn of the century. Um, Michael [00:17:30] is still alive today. Um, but at that stage, you know, we everyone had a sense that that they might have six or eight years, and they just went out and and live that life. Um, as best as they could. So it did sharpen life. You just got on with it. You you know, you didn't kind of worry you too too much about the future in some respects, you just you just live your life as fast as as hard and as well as you could. What was it like for you being kind of thrust [00:18:00] into the public spotlight? So, like that? That that 60 minutes interview with Michael It was interesting because, um, Michael was a pretty extraordinary man. Like, you know, my first experience of Michael going down to his place is that he had he had this house that every available wall had a bookcase on it, and there was books everywhere, and he'd have He was reading, like, a dozen books at any given time And his knowledge around, um, [00:18:30] you know, writing and music and dance. And it was just extraordinary. He'd spent a life of just immersing himself and and literature and dance and music. Um, and it was an eye. It was an eye opener to me. It was It was, you know, completely out of my kind of, You know, I've lived a very sort of middle class upbringing with parents riding horses and all this sort of stuff. And and seeing this whole kind of arts world emerge was quite extraordinary. Um, you know, and I and I saw that, you know, I saw the the [00:19:00] the the the the pain and challenge that Michael went through in terms of creating huge dance pieces within, like, 14 weeks. And, um so look, you know, I I with with Michael, he was always doing media. And because he was this, he was, you know, he was not only because of his dance work, um, but because of who he was in terms of someone that was a real Viv of HIV. Um, so, you know, I just I just went with [00:19:30] it, and we just had the view at that time that, um, you know, he was a really good, um, not role models. Not the right word. But it was good inspiration for HIV HIV people out there that you can actually still get on, and you can still lead your life, and you can still do stuff. And then it was OK for, you know, a, um HIV negative person to, um, have a life with an HIV positive person. So we just had that political view and we just got on and did it, [00:20:00] you know, you just you just it just it just it just just dealt with what was happening at the time, You know? So one of the initiatives in the early nineties was from the AIDS Foundation was, uh, the hero festival. The hero party. Uh, I think it was originally kind of came via Rex Halliday. Can you Can you tell me how you got involved in or or your first time with hearing? Um, [00:20:30] so I I was I was just coming back from overseas, and I was I was I was. All I was aware of was a party down at the at the rail yards, and, um, and II I was given a ticket to it, and I went along with a few mates and we just and we just basically danced, danced all night with 1200 to 1400 men. And there were a number of, you know, great sort of shows at the party. Um, but I was That's that was my sole experience [00:21:00] and awareness of hero at that stage. I didn't really, um, understand, hero a lot more until till the next year. And so then the next year. So? So in the so after that event, Basically, I, I went and had a chat with Rex Halliday and said, Look, you know, I'm you know, I've I've got a little bit of experience in event management, and I've got a fair bit of experience in the corporate world. Um, and just, you know, I'm really interested in what you're doing and wanted to volunteer for this, um, moving [00:21:30] forward and Rex and And what was actually happening was with Hero, um, was that basically hero came out of NZAS prevention team, which was primarily Rex Hall, you know, and Rick had this extraordinary vision and, um, around the community and he was, And from what I understood at the time was that after the Grim Reaper campaign, they basically realised that they actually needed to create, um um, an event, a community event [00:22:00] that celebrated being gay, that it wasn't useful for everybody to sit in the mire of death and whatever, Um, and and Rex's vision was to actually, you know, to go out and celebrate being gay, but have a lot of safe sex messages going through that celebration and that event so that it was a really interesting model in terms of, you know, creating a party or whatever it was, but having safe sex message, because then you actually get everybody [00:22:30] coming along enjoying themselves. Um, but really experiencing a safe sex, um, message other than, you know, seeing it on a on on a on newsprint or a condom pack or a poster. So it was more of a live experience of, um, HIV prevention. So I I chatted to Rex and he said, Look, we've got a part, a party coming up at Princess Wharf, and he gave me the role of party coordinator. And, you know, all [00:23:00] I've done is, you know, managed a few dance parties for for for Michael palm of it. So I had no idea what I was doing. Um, And I said, just you know what you do when you're young. You say, Sure, I'll do that. So did that. Luckily, I had, um, a couple of great lesbians and Angela Mayne and Kath Lewis, who basically were the party managers. Um, and they were really you know, um, those girls were fantastic. They knew, [00:23:30] you know, they knew how to, you know, put together a stage and put together a P a system and put together shows and all that sort of stuff. I sat just over the top of it and just just managed all the more of a a higher level. Um, Rex will, obviously, you know, Rex was obviously hugely involved at that stage. Um, but, um, that was an interesting exercise. It it was quite funny because, um, Michael came up and, um, Warwick was doing this [00:24:00] wonderful production. You could see how wonderful it was. And it was It was, you know, it was it centred around, you know? You know, the hero. And there was two people in that, and there was Michael and another person, and Warwick invited me to be the other person. Um, you know, with Michael because we were in a relationship and stuff like that. So I thought, Oh, that might be interesting. And and I went on that we went to a, um, to a studio area to actually start, You know, um um, basically putting down some performances around it [00:24:30] because it was a It was a It was a you know, it was a journey, and I think within 10, 5 or 10 minutes, Michael and Warwick both realised that Scott was not cut out to do this at all. And Scott had realised that within 30 seconds of of trying this and then they kind of they sort of afterwards, they had this sort of, like, embarrassed conversation with me about Maybe you should just concentrate on the party, Scott, and we might need to find someone else. I was totally relieved that they were They'd got to that view because, um and then that's when they [00:25:00] got me to to be the opposite to my court. So that was kind of funny. But, um, you know, that that party was that party was pretty extraordinary because I think we had over 3000 people at that party and the actual the show that you know what brought his show? It was on the ground. It was up in the air. It went on for about 15 18 minutes. So it was a long production, and, um, they were flying people through. There [00:25:30] were Amazon woman. There were, you know, Michael and some drag queen doing, um, Freddie Mercury ca ca monts um Barcelona. Or it was just an extraordinary celeb celebration. I think New Zealand, when New Zealand hadn't seen nothing like it. Uh, it was. And I remember that party. One of those fabulous things we did at that party was that we had, um we had a a water pipe going at top across the roof. And I can't [00:26:00] I can't recall why we had that water pipe going across the route, but it had a it had, you know, holes in it. So it was drizzling water. Well, the place to dance for the rest of the night and that and that whole venue was underneath the drizzling water, and everybody was dancing on the water. Everybody was soaked to the skin, you know, they were just they were just soaked, and you couldn't You couldn't get underneath that that pipe because it was so crowded. Um, because it was a hot night. It was a very hot night. Um, and, um, you know it. It was it was a fabulous party [00:26:30] that that party, how was the party? Um, kind of staff. I mean, was this like AIDS foundation staff? Or was it volunteers? Look, there was a huge, huge, huge volunteer component. Rex, you know, Rex Rex's vision was that that it needed It was an HIV. It was a community event with an HIV prevention measures, but it it it was to come out of the community, and he involved large numbers of the community. You know, it [00:27:00] was extraordinary what he did. Um, it couldn't have happened without the community, because it was, you know, it was run by the community for the community. It was just It did need something like NZAF to fund it and sit behind it so that, you know, the bills could be paid. Um, if need be, um, and need an organisation like that and behind it, But, you know, mainly run by the community. What kind of effect did that first hero [00:27:30] have on the community? Oh, it was extraordinary. It was just, you know, we you know, it was in the magazines, you know, there were, you know, there were photo spreads and stories about hero, um, in in north and south and and all those magazines and it was just It was just like this lightning bolt of, um, celebration that we could do something really, really amazing and have a really good time around it. Um and you know, it was it was it was. I can't underestimate [00:28:00] how probably important it was in terms of, you know, celebrating. You know, gay and lesbian culture, who we were. It's really interesting with those kind of events. How that energy can ripple for for, for for years. Yeah, I you know, I think that the that that party and that and that show of Warwick and Michael will, you know, will always stay in [00:28:30] people's minds. Who attended that party was huge. So we've had hero one hero two. What are the ideas kind of floating around now? I mean, is it just an idea of getting bigger and bigger and bigger? Um, after hero two, which is in 92 the the NZAF and Rex were very clear that it actually needed to to the ownership really needed to, even even though the ownership needed to move into the community even though the community [00:29:00] basically were the driving force behind it, with Rex guiding it, um, there was a trust, um, that was set up, and it did move into the community. So there was a trust and a board, and Bruce was the chair of the chair of the board, and there are. You know, there were about four or eight other board directors. Um and so it it it it it transferred fully over the community. That was kind of a really interesting stage, because, um, [00:29:30] R and NZAF had let it go to a certain degree, and the community had taken pretty full ownership of it and and and absolute financial ownership of it and legal ownership of it. Um, and the the event to me, this is where all the kind of different politics came into effect. The event, to me was the the primary purpose of the event was a gay and lesbian celebration with a with a safe sex me message [00:30:00] there. What? Actually, I think happened over time. We had we had a few areas of tension with NZAF following not Rex, because I think Rex had left, um, NF that stage. But they still saw hero as as its main purpose of a as a HIV prevention campaign. Where where I and and I can't speak for Bruce, but, uh, but but I felt that the main reason for it was about, um, community celebration. [00:30:30] And there need to be a strong safe sex message. so they actually they actually, they actually ended up being some fairly quite a few years, a few areas of tension with, um, with the hero project and NZAF because they're always wanting to have AAA, um, a stronger, safe sex message. Even though we did have safe sex submissions, I really thought it was more about a celebrate a celebration of the community. So, um, it it actually did change quite a bit from that Because and then when you introduced the parade, well, [00:31:00] then it really came about a public celebration of community, because at the at the time, it was just a pretty much an internal celebration for the community. And then the parade took it, you know, externally. Basically, um, So, um, it started changing. You know, um, after Hero two started that the the for me. The event started to change quite quite dramatically at that stage. So when and and how did the parade come about? Um, [00:31:30] the parade came about, um, and, um, in the third, um, in the third sort of 93. So it was the 3rd 3rd hero. And, you know, we were all conscious of, um, gay parades in San Francisco and Sydney and places like that. And we just thought, Why not do this? Um, so we just decided to do it. Um, And, um, we decided that we'd make the biggest statement we [00:32:00] possibly could, which was on Queen Street, obviously. And, um, I employed, um, Simon Shaw, who lived down the road from me as, um para coordinator. And, um, I think we had a budget of $16,000 or less. And, um, we had such limited knowledge of event management. Um, it was it was spectacular, spectacular [00:32:30] in its naivety. Um, we didn't have any barriers on the road. I'm not sure we have had AAA major traffic management plan. We just We obviously, we had to get a from council. They didn't I don't think they had any idea what we were doing. Um, um, but, um, we just went ahead and did it. Um, And we you know, we just hired some rooms somewhere. We We had a budget for about what we wanted to do right from the start. Is we? We We We were very clear that we wanted [00:33:00] we wanted it to be glamorous. Right. Um and so we wanted to have at least six floats that had great lighting. Um, great music, you know, great shows going on, um, and all those sorts of things. So we had we put money into those for about six shows, and we invited people to actually apply with a concept and say, you know, tell us what you want to do. So you get someone like me coming on and wanting to do something or you get, um you know, some of the drug community come along and do something or whatever the case may be. [00:33:30] And then we just chose the six, and we gave them a budget and the way they went, um, and then anyone else could put something else in which they did. You know, the marching boys would do something that came a couple of years later, or or whatever. Um, but we had we had enough money to make to have the big the big, the big, flashy things. Um, so that's how we did it. And and, you know, I remember going. I remember. Just go going down to the first parade and coming down and thinking, What are these people doing here? you know, [00:34:00] there was. I think there was, like, 10,000 people at the first parade, and I was kind of, like, shocked and horrified at how many people would come down to this. I thought we were just kind of doing this ourselves. I'd never been to a gate parade parade before, so we were kind of walking into this. I felt like I was walking into it a bit blind, and, um and it was fabulous. But the weird thing was the people with crowd control, you know, when the parade started, most people were on Queen Street. They went on the footpath. So the parade had to kind of cut its way through [00:34:30] the crowds because there was no there were no barriers anywhere. So it was just It was, you know, I. I was lucky. I was lucky no one wasn't killed or injured on the first night, you know, um, but it was fab. It was fabulous. It was fantastic. And, you know, after that night, we realised the potential of it. What we could do, um and and it It was kind of hilarious that first that first night, because obviously some counsellors had had gone along and saw it. And then dear old um, Colin [00:35:00] Hay Was it Colin Hay? And he was obviously horrified because one of the first one of the one of the lovely, um, one of the greatest, um um, trucks that we had there was the leather truck. And, you know, these guys were there and, um, and their leathers and they were, you know, they were whipping each other and all that sort of stuff. It was a great it was a great float. It was fantastic. And, um, I remember, um, I think it was, um Must might have been a week [00:35:30] later or something. And he was kicking up. Let's think about it. And the media was there, Um, and what they did is at the time at the Civic, there was a show on called Much, Much Ado About Nothing. It was, you know, it was obviously a Shakespearean play, and they were interviewing Keith Hay and they started. They started the interview with a shot of the billboard for the show, and it was like, much to do about nothing. And they panned down to [00:36:00] and asked him what his problem was with the hero parade and he went into all this, you know, Dire tribe about, You know, um, it's not a family show. This is a family street, Queen Street. It's disgusting what was going on. And you know, all this debauchery and, you know, homosexuality and all this sort of stuff. It was just We I we just sat in front of TV and pissed ourselves. We just laughed, you know, hysterically. We laughed on one side, and then we were offended on the other side, you know, it was like it was it was kind of we realised [00:36:30] that we were under attack. It was obvious that we were under attack by right wing Christian folk. Um, but then we also the sort of potential of actually getting so much more media exposure to hero through someone like Keith Hay. And so we used that every year we use that going forward, we totally expected Keith Hay to come out and try and block the he the hero parade or stop money to come to the hero parade or whatever. And that [00:37:00] just gave us an entree into media to publicise it. And I think the media actually I remember the media one year saying, um, how much free time hero would get through Keith Hay. Um and so we used that. And we also were, you know, obviously, um right, not offender is not the right word, but we were, you know, we're battling right wing bigotry and prejudice. Um, and because we, we our our, you know, for us, [00:37:30] the battleground was Middle New Zealand that we actually wanted them to see that, you know, you know, we were a community, and we were We were a bit risque and a bit out there and all that sort of stuff, but we were making no apologies for that. It was interesting after the first parade, because, um, there were some people in the community that were also were concerned that we were a bit too out there. You know, um, and there are There is a little group started up in Auckland called Strangely normal. And there are gay [00:38:00] and lesbian group. There are only about two or three of them in there, and they call themselves themselves Strangely normal, which I thought was pretty hilarious at the time. Um but they were trying to lobby us to try and tone us down in terms of the parade going forward. And there was a community meeting at one stage, um, there and strangely normal were represented there. And there are a few people standing up saying, you know, this is there's some people from Wellington and they're saying when I one guy up and saying when I go [00:38:30] to work, um, in Wellington and I'm and I think he worked actually in in in government because I it's really hard for me to, you know, um, justify, you know, pushing the gay, you know, gay rights and anti discrimination laws and stuff like that. When you do that sort of stuff on Queen Street, you're you're setting us back by years and years and and then you'd get you'd get everybody else standing up saying, Don't care, you know, don't care about what you're trying to do in Wellington with your political masters or [00:39:00] whatever the case may be. This is who we are. This, you know, we're going to do this. So there was a debate going in. I think the majority of people were on the side of this is who we are. We're gonna go out and lead our lives like this. And the thing with us from who in the management of her is that we went into censorship as long as there was no, um, nudity, as long as there was no sex happening, Um, pretty much you could you could go out and do what you want. We had lots of [00:39:30] discussions at board level about simulated sex. Whether that was legal or not, we actually went and spoke to the police aro around where they sat on simulated sex. And there was actually it was it was a grey area, and I can't really recall the details of it. Um, but it was that that was a grey area. They couldn't tell us whether that was legal or illegal. So we just said, OK, you know, we we we kind of coach people who go to just be a little bit careful how you take [00:40:00] the how far you take this. But we did. You know, we did. We we did check the floats as before. They started at the start of the journey the following years to make sure there wasn't anything in there that we thought we could get into trouble with the law with and they never They never really was. So we went when we weren't about to start creating censorship and saying, You know, you can do this. You can't do that. It was a community event. We didn't We didn't feel we had that right. And the first parade you were saying was 1993. [00:40:30] Yeah. The first play was 1993. Yeah, they were hard work. You know, We had small budgets. We didn't know what we were doing, but they were fabulous at the end of the day because, you know, the community just got right in behind it. You know, we would open the workshops, I think, like, you know, a month before Christmas. And we just get dozens of people turning up, you know, sewing things, you know, sticking glitter onto stuff and sequins and all that sort of stuff. And, you know, they were just wonderful places to be around. [00:41:00] Um, and we just did. We did a lot for very little, you know, very little budgets. Um, as I said, the first pray cost us $16,000 I think by memory, and, um, you know, we would go out and we would find truck drivers. You know, big, beefy, straight truck guys that have AAA big truck that would, um, drive their truck for us the night for nothing or the cost of the petrol for the night. And they would go to the light companies and generator companies, and we would, you know, big steal and borrow [00:41:30] and get them as cheap as we can. Um, and then we you know, you find material for nothing. And we just did everything on the smell of an rag because the budgets were really small. You know, we we you know, it was really hard making the budgets work in those days. Basically, the way the Senate was done was that the the party, the profits from the party were there to fund the prey, which then fell into the festival because I think we introduced a a kind of a umbrella festival a year after as well, um, we saw the opportunity for the festival in terms of [00:42:00] having three weeks of, you know, um, anyone that wanted to basically put on a, um, an event. So, um so that was the model was the party, um, funded the parade in the festival. The problem that we started to run into is that, um, the parade started costing more and more money every year because the council just said this is dangerous. We have to actually start putting barriers in place. They started costing money. Um, and the council was never forthcoming with cash. Um, [00:42:30] they did provide some in kind support, so they wouldn't charge us for street planning, or they wouldn't charge us for this and that. But, you know, it was pretty bloody. Um, it was pretty mis miserable on their behalf. Um, the festivals weren't particularly expensive. We just needed a festival coordinator. And everybody was, you know, it was an umbrella festival. So everybody was responsible for their own costs. Uh, things like that. So we did a lot on very little, um, but, uh, you know, the budgets [00:43:00] used to keep me awake at night all the time because, you know, there was one year that we made a reasonable loss. I think it was about 20 or $30,000 and we had to, you know, we had to some very generous people put their hands in their pockets and put out some cash and and and carried us through. The next year, we managed to recoup that and keep going. And then after that, um, we managed to keep pretty much, um, neutral budgets every year and, uh, right up till I left. But that was hard work. You know, Um, no [00:43:30] one was paid very much. We didn't, You know, we didn't spend a lot of money. We were always We were always big stealing and borrowing. What was the idea of having the parade at night time? Because things like, say, the pride parade in, say, San Francisco is is a daytime event. So having it in a different time would change the feel and the mood. Oh, we just, uh you know, we just we just knew that, um, you know, a a night time parade creates an atmosphere [00:44:00] that is so suited to a gay and lesbian parade. I do not understand day parades. It's a completely different model to a night parade. So a night parade you can have, You know, everyone's coming out at night, so there's a party atmosphere. There's there's lights. You can do so much with lighting in terms of the shows on the on the parades and the music is, is there. So it's It's a complete evening type event. It's a very different type of event. It's a show event, so the parades [00:44:30] are more about the shows. You will have groups marching and stuff like that, but it's more about the music and the shows. There are daytime parades. It's quite often more about a political statement and that sort of stuff. Um, so we always wanted I always I always wanted a night parade, and I'm pretty sure the board always wanted a night parade and there was just no choice around it. We would never do a day parade because we wanted to, because we were We were at that stage where it was It was about, you know, having fun and and, you know, it was a you know, Yeah, it was. That was what that's [00:45:00] what it was for and you could. Having fun is magnified by 10, um, in the evening, and also we realised that people coming to the parade who are watching the parade would then go on and celebrate afterwards in the bars and the clubs and stuff like that. The straight people, that sort of stuff. So it would become an event in itself. And that's what it basically turned into. As you know, um, you know, 100 odd 1000 people coming out and watching the parade in the evening. And then, um, [00:45:30] you know, Queen Street Road just going off and one big party on all night while we all went, went out and partied ourselves. What was it like for you personally? Um, having never seen, uh, say a pride parade before to actually witness that. That that first time, Um, there's this photo, and I wish I'd kept it. But there's this photo and express, um, after the parade, and it was of me, um, standing on the street with this kind of kind of dumb look on my face and [00:46:00] it just it it it it did basically express. I was like, it was almost shock. Look on his face. I was standing there going Oh, my jaw was kind of like on the ground because it was just people everywhere. Um, and it just, you know, it did kind of it was, you know, and I was kind of like in this little bit of a party outfit. So I was It was That's, um that's it was a great photo, cos I was looking like I was just looked like I looked like I was in shock, and it was we were We were kind of like, Holy man, what do we What have we created here? So, [00:46:30] um, yeah, cos we didn't I I'd never been as I say, But that year I went over and looked. I went to went to Mardi Gras and looked at the parade there and and realised that we'd done the right thing and but also realised that the the future of what we could actually create ongoing here, what can you compare like Sydney Mardi Gras to the hero? What? What were the similarities and difference? I've got a unique perspective on that, because after I left here, I, um my partner and I went over to Sydney, and I, [00:47:00] um, I was head of events for Sydney Mardi Gras for two years until it went broke. Um, so I, um, I managed the event team, so I managed the, you know, the party and the parade and the festival. So I got a kind of new perspective. Sydney. Mardi Gras was a massive organisation, and it was highly political. We had a lot of politics and hero, too, but it was a massive organisation. Um, but there wasn't, you know, to be honest, there wasn't a lot of difference other than scale. [00:47:30] Um, you know, we had 100,000 at our parade, and we had some fabulous events. Um, And at at Mardi Gras, you had 800,000 at the parade, and you had, um, 3000 participants. Um, and it got a bit long at times where you'd stand there and you'd you'd think I'm halfway through. I'm kind of over this. Um, so it was just really about scale at the end of the day. Um, you know, and and Mardi Gras has had a had A had a very long [00:48:00] history, you know, it it it was born out of, you know, the the, um the, uh 1987 where, you know, some some gay and lesbian people walked down the streets protesting, and, um, the police broke up the protests and threw them in jail. So it was born out of a very strong political statement, Um, and that, you know, it was a fabulous event. It was just a much bigger scale, much bigger scale than what we were doing. But I You know, I think you know, I. I think Auckland could hold [00:48:30] its head up high in terms of what we were doing in the nineties in terms of the party and the parade and the festival. It started off in Queen Street, and then it moved. Why? Why? That was my call, to be honest, because, um, what we were trying to do is, um Queen Street was a little short. It's about 1. 3 KS and we were getting so many people on that was getting really congestion congested. And also, we were trying to increase [00:49:00] the sponsorship of the actual event, and it was really hard to make this thing financially work. Um, and also, Queen Street didn't have a lot of bars and clubs down there at that stage, so I looked and thought, OK, here's Pons road, 2. 6 kilometres has a whole kind of, um, bar scene. It is the heart of the gay community. Pons at the time, Pons, you know, a lot of people. A lot of gay lesbian people lived, lived in Pons, and there was a potential for a lot of other businesses to maybe support the prey. [00:49:30] So there was this three or four good reasons in my mind to shift the parade length party atmosphere afterwards and, um, more sponsorship. So I made the call. It didn't go down well with a lot of people. It went down well with a lot of people, Didn't didn't care that it was fine. But I can remember a, um a delegation of I think actually, there is a lesbian delegation coming to the board, and, um, they accused me of sabotage and selling out commercial [00:50:00] interests and a whole range of things you think I'd, you know, murdered their mother or something. Um, but we just you know, I just I My sense of it is that that poncy was would would would be a great place to have a parade. So we took the call and made the decision and went to Ponsonby, and and they were their argument. I could understand their argument. Their argument was that if you got to make the biggest political statement, you make it on street and totally agreed with that. But I felt that we'd [00:50:30] we'd already made that statement that the the parade was so entrenched in terms of getting media and Keith Hay coming out every year that that wouldn't change if we went to Pons Road and it didn't change. The media still came out. Keith Hay still came out. It didn't matter. So and I think I think that was the right choice to make to go to What? What year was that? That would have been, I think we did two years in in Queen Street. Um and so that would have been [00:51:00] in 95 I would say. And we went to We went to Pons Road. Talk to me about the, um, inclusiveness of the event. I mean, we were talking about lesbians, gay, transgender. How inclusive was hero in those early years. Um, it was incredibly inclusive. If you wanted to do something, you could It was just like it was an open door policy in terms of, um, gay, lesbian and trans transgender people. There was a slight [00:51:30] issue with bisexuality going on. There's a slight politics around that, um I remember it was discussed at board level and stuff like that. And there was some representation from bisexuals who wanted, you know, to have a greater involvement. And I can remember some board members saying, let them let them create their own bisexual parade. So there was some politics around that, Um, but, you know, um, that was the only kind of thing that kind of set a little bit a little bit out a little bit outside. [00:52:00] But, you know, it was you know, everyone was involved, basically, that wanted to be involved, um, and wanted and had their own message or their own agenda or their own Whatever. Um, so, you know, it was all just a big, a big kind of family. I can't say it was always a happy family. Um, but it was always a big family in terms of the people that were actually volunteering or participating. What? What was the kind of makeup of of those groups in terms of, you know, lesbian trans gay? It was It was It was every [00:52:30] person. It was a really cross section of our community. Um, it was a huge cross cross section of our community. There were a lot of HIV positive men involved because a lot of HIV positive people at the time, um, couldn't work. Um, so, you know, because of the health issues, But they could come along and sew something in the at at the workshop and and and, you know, do 34 hours work and, you know, help and that sort of stuff. So we actually had a lot of gay men who were [00:53:00] on benefits because they had to be on benefits because of ill health. That really kind of kicked in for the three months leading into the parade. And they were They were just fantastic. Um, so you know, and and and and And, you know, the drag community were highly involved. The lesbian community were were fantastic. They really saw an opportunity there, and they they really helped, um, so and old people, young people all over the place. Yeah, it was everybody. What were those workshops [00:53:30] like? Oh, they were fantastic. They were They were we Once again, we go out and we be beg and steal a a venue somewhere, like, literally try and find a an unused venue for, like, three months and give them, like, you know, $1000 and and 22 cases of beer. Um, but we just you know, we just set them up and there'd be a, you know, the parade office, and and they just we just There were just a hive of people making things, creating things and all that sort of stuff. And but there there was kind of hard [00:54:00] work and stuff like that. Um, you know, and And there was lots of things that would get in the way. And, you know, we always had these. I mean, we always having these conversations with all the volunteers, right at the start, just saying, Look, if it if it seems a bit tough, just put yourself in the night of the parade and imagine how fantastic it is and just work backwards and you'll get there and we and they did, because there's always there's always there's always problems. You know, when you do a event like that with so little money and all volunteers, there's always there are always problems [00:54:30] and difficulties that you had to deal with all the time. It wasn't easy. You know, it's a lot of work and a lot of people did a lot for very little or just the love of it. And you had to rely on that. I always remember. And I was saying to myself that every year I'd build up this team of people with, you know, pray Director, festival director, party director, uh, the, uh, the editor of the paper and all all this team. And then at the end of the thing, you just dissolve this entire team, and the next year you would start again [00:55:00] and and basically start again with Sometimes you get people from the previous year coming over, but often not so you have to recreate it. So it was like you were recreating an event every year, and that was, you know, that was fairly challenging. It was hard. You know, You really had to a lot of energy, I. I would I would say I'd be burnt out at the end of every every at the end of every, you know, I'd go. I'd basically take 66 weeks off and just disappear. Um, but it was it was not easy, but fun and and, you know, hugely rewarding [00:55:30] but hard. You mentioned that the parade was a lot about celebration. And I'm wondering, how did the AIDS Foundation respond to something like the parade? NZAF responded well to the parade. As I said, there was a There was some areas of tension around, um, that they thought that hero was Its primary function was around a, um, safe sex, um, education campaign, where? Where? [00:56:00] I thought and my board thought it was around a celebration of gay and lesbian community and that we'd always have a strong HIV prevention measure. And there were some times we had some quite, um, heated discussions with some of the, um NZAF staff around that issue. And we used to have every year every year we used to try and design a new theme for Hero, and we'd have these kind of workshops, and NZAF would be there, and they'd always be trying to get make the theme to be a HIV education thing. And [00:56:30] it would. It never never got off the ground because a it wasn't what hero was about B. It didn't really work for, um for lesbians because it wasn't such an issue then. Well, it wasn't an issue for them, so, um they were, you know, the the I think they I think at the end they saw us as being a, you know, a little bit problematic. Let's talk about some of the themes. What what were some of the themes of the parade? The themes, the themes were, um, [00:57:00] you know, it's interesting with themes. The themes, uh, we're different every year. Um, and in some respects, I'm I'm looking back. You know, the real theme was just gay and lesbian celebration. We didn't actually need to actually create kind of sub themes every year because I actually looking back, it doesn't Doesn't really work, you know, the the the hero brand in itself was strong [00:57:30] enough to just run the event as it was. So whilst we did create themes, if I was doing something like that again, I'd just basically go with the hero brand and what it meant for people which was just celebrating gay and lesbian culture. Um, so it's something that you know, I. I think it it it it wasn't that important. To be honest for me, could we maybe just look at some of the floats and some of the participants that were in the parades. And could you just describe some [00:58:00] of the potentially, like, uh, organisations or groups that were involved and and Yeah. So you had things like the marching boys, um, themselves And they would you know, they would be three or four really great guys out there that would just create this event and get 30 of their mates to mates to come in and do that. I. I was a marching boy one year, so I thought what the hell, I'd do it. It was it was a hell of a lot of fun. I really enjoyed it. Um, And [00:58:30] then you'd get, um, you'd get people like I remember 11 of the most one of the most fantastic floats that ever went down Queen Street. Queen Street was, um, a drag queen by the name of Victoria, Um, who passed away a few years after that. Um, Victoria was just kind of famous in in New Zealand. She was she was extraordinary. Vitoria, um, was actually a partner of Bruce Kilmister. Um, and, um, Victoria just created this wonderful flat bed trip. What was just just [00:59:00] dazzled and white light. And she had about eight boys that walked along the float who had faux cameras, and there was her and another drag queen who just did the catwalk thing. And they had all these cameramen just taking photos of them. And it was great news at great lights, and they just they just stomped the catwalk and there was things like that. And it was just, you know, it was a very simple float. And it was it wasn't that expensive, but it was just, you know, it was it was [00:59:30] pretty fantastic. Um, then, you know, there were all the other different sort of, you know, me always did a float every year. Um, there was always a leather float coming through. They were They were They were just a collection of people just just organising it themselves and making it happen. Were there any floats that shocked you? No. Never talk to me about the the size of audiences. So you started in 1993 with 10,000 people. How does that kind of escalate? [01:00:00] Uh, I think it up to probably about 30 or 40 the next year. Once the word had got out and once Keith ha had given us all that publicity for free. It was fantastic. Um, and we you know, he came back again the next year and said, We can't have this down Queen Street again. It's a family. This is a street is a family. Um, and then when it went to Pons, it I think it ballooned out to 80 to 100,000. Um, thereafter it's always impossible to get a count. Our counts are always twice as high as the police counts. Um, and and [01:00:30] Keith Hayes count was always lower than the police count. So, you know, there's a whole kind of politic wrapped up in the count of the hearing of of the of how many people attended the hero parade. Um, but they just kept ballooning. Um, and, you know, at that stage in Pons Road, we'd, you know, we'd gone to the expense of having barriers and stuff like that, which obviously we need to do to keep the place safe. You know, I do. You know, I do remember 11 parade where in Pons Road, where people just started getting on to the all of the yawning and the [01:01:00] roofs and stuff like that, and there was just, you know, there was a We had a lack of security around that, and and and Millie's and on three lamps, um, veranda collapsed. And there are people going to hospital, including a policeman. So, you know, it was it was it was kind of There are things around that that we, you know, we really didn't understand and appreciate, you know, until I actually went and worked at Mardi Gras, where you basically had security people [01:01:30] at every at every shop, stopping people from climbing structures so that they wouldn't injure or kill themselves. So, you know, we were always behind the eight ball a little bit in terms of the prey in terms of the the fast it grew and what we needed to do and the funding of it. And it became problematic because the parties kind of got to about 5. 5 1000 out of Green Lane, which was producing good money. But then the parties started to to to decline in numbers each year by only by [01:02:00] about four or 500. But that was some revenue that we didn't have to throw at the parade or the, um festival. So you know what you were getting? You were getting increased costs in the in the festival and the parade because we had to and we were getting a declining revenue in the party. And sponsorship was really a struggle. We had some good money from, um, Dominion Breweries. But around, you know, we had alcohol sponsorship back in those days, and we got a we got, we got we got some money from [01:02:30] Creative New Zealand, which kicked off. We really got the festival going one year, and I mean good money. I'm talking about $15,000. Um, and we're we're always scratching around to fund it. We always break even. Um, one year we had a loss, but after that, we were always pretty much broke even. But that was because everybody did everything for nothing. What about media exposure? Did that kind of increases as the Yeah, the media exposure just kept going. What? I always thought about the media is the media [01:03:00] always. I always felt that it was a bit funny. The media always I always felt the media were completely on our side and that they struggled to be objective. Um, and with what with with Keith and stuff like that. And I remember one parade. I was down at the, um, the morning of the parade and I was down. Um, it was down down at the workshop, and, uh, someone from the media rang me up and it was pouring with rain, [01:03:30] and he rang me up and said, Oh, just issued a press release saying that God's wrath is on the hero parade and is sending it by way of rain. And and he just He said that And then I just I just said nothing. And then he just started laughing and he just laughed. And then I started laughing and he said, How do you want to respond to that? So I always had the sense that they just thought it was an absolute joke what was going on with Heath. But it was really amusing [01:04:00] reporting, and they always kind of like reporting it, and but they were always on our side. But they always had the struggle in terms of being objective or whatever they had to do in terms of their own, um, journalistic ethics. Um, but, you know, I thought the media was fantastic. Um and, you know, we got lots of articles, and, um and, you know, we got we got the TV three. support eventually in terms of doing, you know, the, um delayed, um, show that I think we did. I think we did it. Johnny [01:04:30] Gibbs put it together, and the night after the parade, that was fantastic, you know. So, um, media was fantastic around that. You know, the gay community never been people. New Zealand had never seen the gay community. And in that way before that that I I can recall seeing that on TV. And, uh, you know, what a fantastic experience to actually see the parade on TV in prime time. What did that do for the parade? Um, it it [01:05:00] it was It was extraordinary. Getting that exposure and to see, you know, to go back on Sunday and just watch the parade for us was just It was just magical. Um, it just continued to give us, you know, um, more exposure. It didn't actually lead to more sponsorship. You know, organisations were pretty wary of sponsoring gay and lesbian events, and hero had a kind of a reputation at that stage. So I suppose if you were a brand out there, you might be a little bit nervous about [01:05:30] associating your brand, um, to the parade. Um, Dominic Brewers were very good. They they but they they never associated with the parade they associated with the party because they were obviously trying to get alcohol into the party. Um, so they always provided money, but it was it didn't lead to any increased sponsorship. It just gave, you know, and we heard stories that you know of 14 or 15 year old boys at home watching the parade and thinking, Oh, this is fantastic. And I'm gay. And you know, there is a There is a life out there if if I want [01:06:00] it, You know, um, so it was It was great in that respect. Um, yeah, it was great. It was like a validation. Getting on TV like that was 1997. This was when it was televised. Was that your last? That was my last year last year. And why did you kind of we had done it for five years. Um, five or six years. And I just felt that, you know, it was I felt you know it. It felt really hard letting it go. But [01:06:30] I you know, I knew at some stage I'd have to let it go That that someone else should needed to take it on. Um and, um, and that, you know, So I just chose that time was the time to go. And it was, you know, it it it was it was hard work. It was, you know, it was putting on an event like that for the money and that it was It was damn stressful. There was always, you know, there was. It was blooming hard work, and I'd I'd probably reach probably burn out to be quite frank at that stage and felt that I needed something else [01:07:00] and something different. Would you like to comment on the kind of slow demise of Hero after that? Look, I only stayed in Auckland for about two years afterwards, and then, um, I moved to Sydney, so I didn't really, you know, I got I got some reports back from people back here about what was happening. Um, you know, I think, um, you know, one of the biggest things that we did well was that we managed the budgets. You know, we really managed [01:07:30] the budgets tightly. Um, because, you know, you can't do anything without money. You can't continue to do things if you make losses. So, um, you know, I you know, I, I really kept tight control over the various budgets. Um, so I really I you know, it was it was I think, you know, I think for the first two years after I left it, the the it went along. Fine. Um and then I think it fell into a a financial hole in in 2000. [01:08:00] I suspect, if that's the timing's right and look at they were probably up against it, I suspect party would be continuing to fall and costs would have continued to going up. Their only way out of it at that stage was to really try and get some serious sponsorship involved. Um, and that probably would still, if I was still there, it probably would have been My My challenge as well is to try and keep managing the books with increasing costs and probably falling revenue. The sponsorship was the only answer, and I suspect they were still struggling to get there. Um, you [01:08:30] know you. You know you can't. You can't operate an event without money to that. Why do you think something like the Sydney Mardi Gras has been able to succeed where something like hero has flourished and then kind of way. So Sydney Mardi Gras had its own, you know, city Mardi Gras had If you go, if you go there, their parties are enormous. Like the party. When I was working there, Mardi Gras itself, 25,000 people in sleaze was 18,000 people, and they were charging [01:09:00] 120 bucks each. So the parties and themselves were bringing in revenue of about $800,000 to a million dollars in revenue that would fund the parade and the festival. Um, so there was a much bigger scale. There was a lot more money. And there's a a Very There was a very big party scene in Sydney where in in Auckland there was a smaller group of mainly men who would want to go to parties. Um, and we just couldn't sustain [01:09:30] that level of, you know, that that party, um, support also had financial support from the council. Um, and they had some significant sponsorship. So, um, but even they, you know, they got themselves into trouble. What? They that was interesting. What they did is they kept on pulling money out of the party and just throwing it at the festival. That's what that's what was their demise. And they never built up many reserves. So, um and, you know, we all you know, it was in the second year that I was head of events. Now I could see [01:10:00] that what was happening and and the board just wasn't They just kept throwing money at the festival, and then they got a They had a dip in sales. Also, they had this real drop in sales and and all of a sudden they were in trouble, and they were they basically went insolvent. Um, but they you know, they they got out of that, um, and there was a struggle for a couple of years, but they got out of that. But once again, you know, there is a big party scene over there. There's a big population, and and the the economist scales [01:10:30] allow allows them to fund a parade and festival. Um, you know, that's the problem back here. is that we don't have those re revenue streams to fund a parade like that. And until we get revenue streams for river stream revenue streams like that, I think it'll always be a struggle jumping ahead. Tenish years. And we've just had the first pride festival in Auckland 2013. Uh, what are your thoughts on that? And compare that to a hero? Well, [01:11:00] I have to confess, I never went to it because I was actually overseas. I was away on business, So, um, but I you know, it was interesting, I. I came back in 2004, and I think he I was still kind of doing. It wasn't there wasn't a probe they was doing doing still a bit I. I was very firmly of the view that the brand should have been put to bed at that stage. You know, I, I you know, I you know, I think they when you made those huge losses, I think the brand [01:11:30] you'd buggered the brand basically, and I think the brand should have been just let to rest and, you know, just celebrate the history of the hero back in the nineties, to be honest. Um, so when I saw its Revi revival, Um, I was kind of, you know, I know, um, Minister Kay was involved, and there was 100,000 from council, but I was concerned, and I'm glad they didn't call it hero. Thank goodness I I'm I'm glad they didn't. They didn't do that. But [01:12:00] I You know, when When it was a daytime parade, I thought, you know, this is not going to be anything like the last hero, and And that that could be something it doesn't need to be like. That could be something different. But then when I also heard that there is a family kind of to be a family perspective on it, I thought, Well, that's, you know, it's just basically, um, succumbing to the funders, basically, because the funders didn't want to have anything, um, controversial. [01:12:30] And I and I, my viewers stuff them, You know, I wouldn't I wouldn't have done it to be honest with having those sorts of overrides in terms of who we are. Um, I. I know you need funds to do it, but, um, you know, you come from the place of your own heart of community, and and you allow that expression to occur? You start putting, um, restrictions [01:13:00] or constraints or whatever on that, and you just you're not gonna get a a true engagement of the community or expression of the community when you start overlaying that sort of stuff. I think it's always going to be difficult reflecting back on your time with hero in the nineties. Uh, what? What? What to you are your proudest moments with with that, you know, II. I remember. Um [01:13:30] oh, there were There were lots of great moments in terms of the feeling of after the parade and after the party, the parties were fabulous. Our parties out at Green Lane were wonderful. The shows were fantastic. Um, they just they they really went off as a as a term that we used to use, you know, we we one year we brought Frankie Knuckles over, which was just, you know, people in Sydney were saying, How on earth did you bring Frankie Knuckles to your party? And Andrea and I managed to negotiate, [01:14:00] You know, Frankie Knuckles knuckles was the DJ in New York at in in the nineties, and Andrew and I managed to negotiate. Um, I think it was first class air fares for him and his partner, which we got at a very cheap rate through Air New Zealand with no fee. And he came over and he just said he he would do it for us, and and I remember when Frankie Ackles started up and he just I've never heard a DJ play like him before. He just he he bounced the songs off the wall, and the place [01:14:30] just for his set was just extraordinary. Um, that was a That was a That was a wonderful moment. Um, when we had the big council meeting around, um, the hero council said, You know, there's lots of controversy around this. Let's have a meeting around this And then, you know, the meeting council meeting office rooms of 200 people had to be put into the town hall because so many people wanted to go to it. And Bruce was the chair at the time, and he says, Well, you better [01:15:00] write a speech for me around this and and I, I don't regard myself myself as a creative writer, but I remember sitting down thinking, OK, and I drafted out the speech in about 30 minutes. It just kind of I was in this kind of zone where it just went wham and it just came out. And it was just all about who we are and what's important to us and and and all this sort of stuff and gave it to Bruce and Bruce. Read it and just just he had this big smile on his face and says, Let's [01:15:30] go And we walked into into, um into council and and And he delivered a speech and every second sentence sentence. People just stood up and just cheered and clapped and and yelled. It was just like it was this wonderful kind of like statement and Councillor. I just cos just most councillors just didn't know what had hit them. That was a pretty extraordinary moment coming out of that. Um, yeah, [01:16:00] those those are two big moments. The whole thing was, you know, it was a real journey. Um, I don't want to. It was it was it was a real journey. And just and the the friends that you made and you know the things that you did with people were fabulous.

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TITLE: Rex Halliday profile
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VOICES: Rex Halliday
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; AIDS Support Network; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Bruce Burnett; Bruce Kilmister; Charles Allan Aberhart; David Hay; Don Badman; Fran Wilde; HIV / AIDS; Hero (Auckland); John Draper; Keith Hay; Les Mills; Michael Parmenter; Neil Trubhovich; New Plymouth; New Plymouth Boys' High School; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand Herald; Ngahuia Te Awekotuku; Nigel Baumber; Out (magazine); Ray Taylor; Rex Halliday; STI; Scott Johnston; Steve Stephens; Stonewall riots (1969); Stop AIDS campaign; Taane Mete; University of Auckland; Uri Khein; Warwick Broadhead; activism; coming out; community; corn holing; drugs; family; gay; gay liberation movement; growing up; hazing; homosexual law reform; liberation; media; monogamy; prevention; relationships; religion; safe sex; school; self esteem; sex; sexual health; volunteer
DATE: 11 April 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Rex talks about growing up in New Plymouth, the Gay Liberation movement, early HIV AIDS prevention programmes and establishing the Hero party and festival.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, my name is Rex Halliday. I came. I was born in New Plymouth, way back in 1950. And, um, I grew up there. I became aware very early on that when I grew up, I was going to love boys, not girls by five. I had this consciousness, but I didn't really do much about it through being a new Plymouth boy. I don't think there's much remarkable in that. And, um, they went on. Then I went [00:00:30] to university, first of all, down to Victoria, then up here in Auckland, then back down to Victoria, ended up doing a degree primarily in music, and then did various jobs. This was this was the 19 sixties seventies. And, um, I was a hippie by nature, and, uh, I worked for a while for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I worked as a teacher. Then I became involved in a meditation thing. So I lived in an Ashram for 56 [00:01:00] years, maybe, um And then after that, I did some various jobs. I fell in love with a man, um, and eventually ended up working with the foundation. I want to just rewind just a wee bit because I want to know what it was like. New Plymouth 19 fifties. You've got a consciousness of being, um, homosexual at the age of five. What was that like? I don't know. If it was so much as the the interesting thing about what I was conscious [00:01:30] of, I don't think it was a conscious of being homosexual. That word I certainly did become aware of, though, when I was still in primary school, because I can remember walking home from primary school up the hill to our house and repeating the word over and over and over. Homosexual, homosexual, homosexual. And so it was. It was a fascinating word, really. But very early on, I was I was aware that, [00:02:00] um, there were quite big restrictions socially on what should be, and I was aware that I shouldn't ever tell anyone else about what my predictions were. I was very aware that I was in love, that I really fancied my friend's brother, who was very, very cute. And, um, I'd heard that he had done something naughty with one of the other boys and what a terrible person he was. And I was I was hoping he'd do something like that to me, but he never did. Um, we had a inter denominational Sunday school down the bottom of our drive [00:02:30] that was run by the people next door. And I ended up becoming a Sunday school teacher, and, um, there were various, all sorts of other various things going on. Yeah, but I sort of think that the way that it was to be a young boy living in New Zealand then is pretty much very standardised. More so than it is now. Probably. You know, the the the options for who and how you could be were were pretty limited was a narrow range. And I never really thought [00:03:00] I was going to fit into that very well. What kind of options? What were the things that you could be? Well, you could be, You know, you could be AAA. Good bloke. You know, you could be a man. You could do anything. That, um, was a good proper man's job. You could only have a girlfriend and, um, and then a wife and Children, and you should probably have a house with three or four kids. Two, maybe, but three or four is a good number. Um, [00:03:30] And you had to be pretty straightforward and no fancy stuff. And, you know, you didn't want to be too arty, because that was pretty suspect. So these are all the things that surrounded me as I was growing up in, you know, in in New Plymouth How it looked to me. Yeah, and probably, you know, you're a good Christian, too. We we we were a Christian family, and our neighbours were Christians. And, you know, can you recall any other homosexuals in New Plymouth at that time? Not sure. [00:04:00] Although by the time I was 14, I was discovering other boys who were interested in playing around and exploring. And so there was one to at least three other boys who, um I used to have exciting little encounters with one in particular who was two years older than me, who? We had quite a long term play time with each other. Really? You you would call it until my mother saw us one day through the fence, [00:04:30] and that put the end to that. And that was that was that was quite that was quite good. What did she do? Oh, well, it was actually the day before my 14th birthday. And this guy and I had been, you know, fiddling about with each other for a long time. Probably two years by this stage. And we were going to stay overnight in our hut that we had down the back and Mum had bought me a new pair of pants and she came out the back and yelled down, Rex, come up. I've got something [00:05:00] for you. You know, she was really excited. And so we came climbed down the tree out of our tree hut, Um, putting our clothes on, the other guy put his arms around me and gave me a big hug and put his hands down. Sort of touched my tender parts. And, um, Mum saw all that. Normally we wouldn't have thought she would call, and I you know, she'd go back inside, but she was excited about this new thing she she's got to give me. So her reaction was, um [00:05:30] that this terrible, terrible thing that has happened. The guy who did it got all the blame because he was two years older than me. Although if anyone was responsible, it was me. In fact, it was and I seduced him, really almost two years ago. And, um, I was never allowed to play with him again. So instead of because that night we had been talking about and that night when we stayed there, he was going to try Corn holding me. I'd found this thing called Corn hauling in a book [00:06:00] that I'd read, which is, like, you know, man fucking guy. Fucking another guy. So he was gonna try Corn holding me for the first time. My initiation into manhood was completely delayed by my mother having seen me instead, I got a long my first long pair of trousers instead, which is a bit of a let down. Really? So there you are. That's that story. Where Where does the word Halling come from? I've never heard that. I think it's a Midwest sort of, you know, American Midwest term. So I read it in some cowboy book. It was a young, [00:06:30] another young guy. It was quite strange. I don't know where I got this from, but there were There were intimations of homosexuality all over the place in the culture. It's just wasn't I mean, it must have been a book in the library. I? I wouldn't have. Certainly. There was no Internet for me to access. So yeah, around that period. And I'm thinking in the sixties we had the Charles killing in in Christchurch. That was quite a big media sensation. Did you know [00:07:00] anything about the Charles? My conscious memory of it is to do with since then and possibly more to do with when I became involved with gay lib and the like later on the seventies. So, yes, at the time, I don't know. I don't know, because I was very conscious of that. The only the only things I became really conscious of tended to be things like that happened in New Plymouth. Like the hazing rituals. What do they call it? What do we call [00:07:30] it in New Zealand? Not hazing. It's an American term. But you know what the older the older boys did to the younger boys at New Plymouth Boys High School. There was a lot of homosexual homosexual Carry-ons going on there, So there was a huge scandal about that. How disgusting it was and all the rest. Yeah. Can you recall what kind of year that was? No, but I know that I was still at home. So it was certainly before 1968. [00:08:00] Yeah, that's really all I can remember for sure, I think even even significantly earlier than that. It came up more than once. I think the the terrible things that the boys were doing to each other at New Boys High School. Yeah, you mentioned just before gay liberation. And I'm wondering what What what involvement did you have with gay? Well, initially, when I came to Auckland, because this was in 1969 [00:08:30] 1970. I guess this was very soon after, you know, the the fires had started from Stonewall and at university, I met Nigel Baumer. And so I can remember sort of being involved with them, you know, talking with them about things, getting involved in the tent. We had marches and and the like. I didn't get involved at that stage in much in that organisational way. So it was just, [00:09:00] you know, going along and doing stuff and being involved in terms of, you know, as a participant. Really? So what kind of things were happening in gay liberation? What kind of actions and stuff were were being undertaken in the seventies. Do you know? I don't remember. I don't remember too much about that. Um, I remember going on marches on Queen Street at least twice, and that was all very exciting. Um, [00:09:30] and I remember talking a lot with people, particularly people you know, other people who are involved with scale liberation. But other than that, I don't have a huge amount of memory about I mean, we we are talking more than a quarter of a century ago. Yeah. Can you describe what the climate was like? It was It was complex, actually. I mean, on the one hand, you had the fact that homosexuality [00:10:00] was illegal and there was there was a caution and and a slight paranoia about, um being found out. And what would happen to you and or what? What people could do to you if they chose to. On the other hand, there was sort of, like, an almost strident determination that we were going to be who we wanted to be. And it was about time for the world to change and don't get in our way because it's going to change whether you like it or not. and and [00:10:30] we felt pretty. I felt pretty confident about that. And I think other people felt confident. It was like our time has come. We we're going to push ahead from here on. So and And I also remember that that as probably always happens with every generation there was a slight, um like this not distaste but disfavour towards the way gay had been expressed in the past. Like the [00:11:00] the adoption of female names, which just seemed to me totally unless want someone to be a drag to just get every game in a female name. Just seemed to me absurd and silly and and irritating. Really? Um and yeah, it was like, OK, now we can be men, and we can be gay too. So yeah, there was a lot going on, and it was all tied in with the General liberation because the liberation wasn't just a gay liberation. There was just [00:11:30] this general liberation feeling that was coming through that whole time with hippies and with music like the Beatles. I mean, all those people through that time and Woodstock happened, and the Black Panthers and gay power, like all of this big movement was and Anti-vietnam and all of this thing was moving towards a bigger, brighter future. So you there was optimism, right? What do you think drew [00:12:00] you to the hippie movement? Well, I don't know if I was really a total hippie, but, um, you know, there were drugs around in those days, and I did partake of some of those and had some pretty extraordinary experiences on them. Um, and also, there was a part of me that was very much looking for truth with the biggest possible tea. Um And so, um, and I and I think that I think that this is what quote unquote hippy [00:12:30] hippy ness was about was the answers that we had been given we could see weren't really adequate. And we wanted to find our own. And we were gonna do alternative things to do that. And, you know, so all of that fit and very, very much with who I was as a person who I felt I was and where I wanted to go at that time. Yeah, We come into the early eighties and there starts to be this emergence of [00:13:00] HIV and AIDS. Can you tell me when you first were aware of HIV and AIDS. Well, I guess that was probably around about 1984 or so. I remember at that time I was in a relationship. I remember being quite shocked about the implications of it when we heard what was happening in New York and in America generally, and the speed with which it was going and feeling almost a paranoia and a certain anger at God. [00:13:30] Because even though I didn't believe in God anymore, I reserved him for being very, very angry with whenever things weren't going right and I. I was very angry that as we were emerging into a sense of freedom for the first time in our lives, the this tidal wave of damage was also coming in the opposite direction because it did look like it could be an incredibly dangerous thing for us as gay people. And also I was afraid of what [00:14:00] might happen to us socially if we became pariahs within, you know, within our culture, and I have to give credit to I think a lot of the activists, particularly in America, who managed to control um dialogue around HIV aids very, very well and played it very much to our to our benefit, which is how it should have been. Yeah, [00:14:30] I'm wondering how you first heard about it, because, as you said earlier that we didn't have the Internet. Then what kind of communication with, like, America Did you have? I think that for me, that probably was just in the newspaper. Maybe on TV. Um, my boyfriend and I were not strongly involved with the gay community. We had lots of gay friends. Um, occasionally, we go out to clubs and pubs, but we weren't strongly [00:15:00] involved in a community per se. And so, yes, I think it just would have been in the in the general news. Or maybe other gay people told us about it as far as I remember. Can you describe for me what The kind of, um I guess sense of community there was in the eighties in in kind of gay culture. Is it a strong sense? I guess different people give different answers for that. For me, it wasn't a strong it. Well, [00:15:30] it's complex, isn't it? It was, and it was I mean, most of my friends, most of my closest friends were gay. Uh, and I was also very aware that there was a consciousness or a sensibility. Um, let say, if you have had people around for dinner or whatever that only gay people could share, and gay people seem to pick up on it automatically, whereas other people would sort of, like either react to it or not understand it, or maybe try and go along with it. But it could be a little bit [00:16:00] embarrassing. So there was. There was there was. And I think that's I think that's natural throughout the ages that gay people do have an understanding that they can share it, that that automatically evolve, you know, develops between them. But in terms of an organised gay community as a as a solid entity that really didn't exist there. I mean, there there were the facilities, like the pubs and the clubs and, you know, art magazine [00:16:30] and various saunas. And those exist people will go and come from those people go and come from those art magazine. Actually, you have to give out magazine credit art magazine at that time, um, probably played the most significant role, certainly here in Auckland in terms of giving people a sense of identity. Whether whether people would debate whether it was a good one or not is a is another question. But they were very important for us. I think at that time, you know, [00:17:00] What effect did homosexual law reform have on you? And that was in 85 86. Oh, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, we were passionately involved in in it being passed. And so, yes, it was very, very great. And Fran became an immediate culture hero for gay people and, you know, and did it change the world for me at the time? Not particularly. [00:17:30] But I was very, very pleased. And when I went home back down to New Plymouth and my younger brother told me he had signed a petition against gay law reform, um, I was able to give him the most sound telling off that you could possibly imagine. Imagine, and he about six months later apologised profusely for having ever done that. So it was. It was a great consciousness raising for people in New Zealand, [00:18:00] as I think the marriage issue is now that even people who fought against homosexuality they had to deal with the issue and and as a and after the event, they've had to realise. Hey, well, look, here they are, and the world hasn't fallen apart. And all our Children aren't being seduced. And, you know, actually, some of these people seem quite nice. So mhm. Yeah. So had you told your family prior to that? That that you were? Yeah, Yeah, yeah. I told Mum when I was 21 I came [00:18:30] home from university because it was a matter of huge anxiety to me. And every time I came home from university on the way home, I get a cold, and I'm sure it was anxiety that created this. And so when I was 20 Yeah, 21. So this must have been after training college anyway, When I was 21 I went back home from from Victoria and, um, Mum was at the fire, and I sat down and said, Mum, there's something I have to tell you. [00:19:00] And she said, Oh, what? And I said, I'm a homosexual, and, um, I think she was completely taken aback. She found it very, very hard to deal with. But, you know, she was a very loving mother. She loved me. I mean, she was the sort of person who, no matter what I did, her love for me would have been, in fact, that that's what she said. She said, I'll love you no matter what you've done. But, you know, it was hard for her, but I came out there and never told. Dad never talked [00:19:30] to Dad about it. Um, but three months after that, Dad, who had just got a franchise to sell um, motorbike said he was going to buy me a Ben motorbike. Um, and I think that the intention of this was to make a real man of me, that if I had a real piece of machinery between my legs, I might not be homosexual anymore. I refused because I was in my heavy phase. I said, No, I don't want worldly things. So he went for a trip to America instead. [00:20:00] So yeah, here you go. And then when I did meet my first long-term lover, my first long term relationship, Steve, um, Dad treated him when I went home to visit with his dad. Treated him like a son. He was quite fantastic. He could never he and I could never have talked about my sexuality would have been impossible for him. But he was able to treat us with respect and care and, you know, and yeah, so that [00:20:30] it all worked out Just thinking back on the homosexual law reform. What impact do you think HIV and AIDS had on the the way that that kind of played out? Well, it did. It did become part of the debate, didn't it? Because the argument was that, you know, people had to feel, um, safe enough to be able to deal with these issues. And that was also very, very true. So [00:21:00] I think I think the out. I think the outcome would have been the same with or without HIV, but it did. It certainly did enter into the debate, and and it entered into the debate both with arguments for the pros and the cons too, you know? How did you come to the AIDS Foundation? Well, initially, because I was working in this [00:21:30] rob and gone name. Name's gone, but who set up the stop AIDS group And there were There were a couple of fantastic guys and I joined that group, There was probably, I don't know, eight of us may be working on it. And, um, that was and all it was. It was a project based on a San Francisco project where it was, like, tougher. We on [00:22:00] HIV. We would get people to host a party or an evening in their house invite maybe a dozen friends. Two of us would go along and give us a big presentation on HIV A ID. How it work, what we had to do to keep ourselves safe. So I was working on that as a volunteer, maybe for a year. I don't know. I was also, um, on the AIDS hotline as a volunteer. They had a thing and, you know, you would give [00:22:30] advice on that. And then a job came up for prevention coordinator for Auckland to apply for that. What year was the stop? Aids? I am not sure. My guess It was around about 9. 86 37. It was around that time. And was that part of the Aid Support network? It was part of the aid support the Auckland A support network. Work was at the time. Yes. So did you work with Bruce Bennett. No, Bruce. By the time I got involved [00:23:00] in the AIDS Foundation, Bruce had already passed away. So yeah, I didn't know I never knew him. Although someone who came over was Bruce and who was also very instrumental in setting up the AIDS Foundation in New Zealand. Who's still alive Down in Christchurch, a man living with HIV all of his time is Ray Taylor, who's a remarkable man. I mean, Ray, Ray Ray is a remarkable man. Yeah. Can [00:23:30] you describe for me? Um I guess the community response to HIV and AIDS in in New Zealand. Um and you know, when we talk about things like the AIDS Support network or stop AIDS, is that being driven from the community or from the government? And And what kind of people are behind that? No. The initial responses were very, very much coming from within the community. Stop AIDS was a community response. It was from people who were people who were community [00:24:00] members who were not paid representatives who were in no way associated with government. Um, trying to do something to keep their community, their people, their people safe, And, uh, yeah, that's That's really where where it came from and a and there's quite a lot of work done on trying to get the government involved. And, of course, the government did become involved. I mean, it provided [00:24:30] the funding for this thing that became the AIDS Foundation eventually. Yeah. Can you recall what it was like in those stop AIDS Kind of top party type situations? But you know what? What? The kind of response from people was the people who came along. It was very, very, you know, very positive. Everyone was like everyone was aware This is a big issue. This is changing the way. I mean, back in those days, game condoms were not part of our existence because we didn't [00:25:00] need them because we didn't get people pregnant and anything that we could pick up one jab and you were fine. You know, you might get gonorrhoea or syphilis would be the worst. And that was rare. And all you needed was a jab, and it was done. So here it was something that, you know, one accidental moment, and then it was like you're gonna be dead within three or four years. Was the was the the apparent story. So it was pretty scary and pretty, pretty big issue, so people would come along and [00:25:30] we would discuss it in some detail. And most people were really interested in knowing what they needed to do, how to be compliant. The questions would be asked, and only once or twice was there anything that was a little bit off the wall? No people. I mean, I can remember one saying one man saying, Oh, I'm OK, II I only seduced young boys and they they you know, they're never going to have it. And I was like, Oh, we had to go a student talking to [00:26:00] to that guy. But otherwise it was pretty good stuff. And in terms of the makeup of the people attending, was it predominantly men? Or I mean it just men, just men. This was this was for gay men by gay men and who were the complete target risk group at that time? Um, yeah. So and the people turning up, I mean, they would tend to be if I if I looking back between 18 and [00:26:30] 65 maybe in the quite a wide range of ages, but certainly with the the bulking being in the mid twenties to the mid forties. Yeah. So what was the job with the AIDS foundation? The job was Auckland Bay for the Auckland Community Support Network. At first, um, it was HIV prevention Manager. What's the time? What is the job? And so that was a job. Really? To, um, make [00:27:00] this This was again a job specifically targeted at gay men to raise awareness about HIV and to, uh, encourage safe practises. And how did he do that? Well, initially we carried on with things like stop aid. We would have, um, workshops, bigger workshops that we would invite lots of people to there'd be promotions, information out in the venues, lots and lots of lots and [00:27:30] lots of different things using the current facilities that are available advertising and out magazine. Um, one thing I became aware of as I was doing that is that this is all very well and it is actually working, and it is doing some good stuff, but nevertheless, we're targeting a small proportion, really, or a lesser proportion of the number of people who need to be know who need to know this stuff and So this was always an issue on my mind. Like, how do we get out to all [00:28:00] the people who are out there having six with men? It's a big group of people, and it includes a lot of men who don't identify as being gay or a lot of men who would would identify as being gay if they thought it was a safer thing to do. And also research was showing that identity with gay community was one self good Self esteem and identity was with the gay community. Positive identity was the gay community with two of the really big important factors [00:28:30] for people to successfully manage safe sex being safe. And so this became became an issue for me, too. Like, how do we create that environment? Very early on, I organised 21 Auckland and one international one Sorry, national, um, gay lesbian conference, specifically to start to work on making stronger community, I guess. [00:29:00] And then a little bit later on, too. There was the initiative which I, which I've been working on for a long time. But we actually set up a community centre, which I thought would have been a really good thing to do, and it worked fantastically for a while. I mean, we had a 1234 story building down on Wall Street at one stage, but, um, that eventually collapsed under the weight of community politics. I'm afraid so. That was a bit sad. Yeah, talk to me a wee bit about how you design [00:29:30] campaigns that that target specific groups. And I'm thinking in terms of things like imagery and language, you know the idea of being really forward with the language you use or being a bit more reserved If you want to get to a different population, what were some of the considerations that you had to go through? Well, there's a There's a lot of things because you've got you've got, you know, within within the group of men who have sex with men, you've actually got a lot of different target groups. But then there is an [00:30:00] an arguable case that the people who are most at risk are the people who are out there going to venues, having regular sex with with lots of other guys and who are quite sexualized in their attitudes. So certainly, there's, there's I need to on a core level address those guys in a language that actually suits them. So, I mean, you know, a lot of our the adverts were very, um, sexualized. Gay? [00:30:30] Positive. Um, there was always there was always an issue for me, which I don't think we ever really addressed very well, because we also this was one of the things about HIV arriving at the same time as gay Liberation. On the one hand, here we were. We're free. We can do what we want. All the restrictions of the past are gone. We can have sex with as many people as often as we want, whenever we want. However we want. And there's nothing wrong with that. [00:31:00] You know, that attitude doesn't sit very well with the fact that we have this thing called HIV. It's a little bit like what Hammond in Venice in the 7 16 70 16, 17 hundreds, where Venice suddenly became this city of of sexual pleasure for the whole of Europe and then, um, syphilis, developed in Venice and decimated Venice, decimate and spread throughout the whole of Europe. Very similar story. In a way. It was like this incredible [00:31:30] freedom gets undermined by the consequences of that freedom. And And I'm not talking on moral on a moral issue here, this is just a simple reality. So yeah, the But there there was a real There was a real question around, um, relationships. And what do we do? I mean, if two guys fall in love and decide to go into a monogamous relationship, they're gonna be pretty safe, and maybe they don't even need to wear condoms. [00:32:00] But to say to even talk about not wearing condoms in those days was like heresy. Really. It was like condoms are say, you you talk about, you know, not wearing condoms. And, um, monogamy was also a little bit heretical, too was in the gay community. So there were these big issues that were being thrown around, you know? Yes, I did this very interesting survey. This was actually after I left the foundation [00:32:30] and I was asked to do a speech down at the town hall about, um, how the gay community is dealing with HIV aids. And to do this, I decided to do a very unscientific survey, and I asked 30. I think it was 30 men, 30 I asked them two questions and I specifically chose. Then I slanted my my target group, which makes it even more surprising. The result I got. I specifically chose men who [00:33:00] I knew were having a a lot of men who I knew were having a lot of sex going out to, you know, really enjoying having a lot of sexual relationships or sexual encounters. And I asked this question. I said if you had the choice when you were born of having a lifetime where you would meet one partner who you would stay with for the whole of your life, you would never that sex with him would be good and you'd never have sex with anyone else. But you would have a good relationship that would always last. [00:33:30] Or you can have sex with anyone you like any time you want and the sex will always be fantastic. What would you choose? I was expecting that, you know, then I, I thought, the bulk. There'll be more people choosing the relationship, but that there would be a lot that would choose the sex every time. What amazed me is those 30 men, only one, only one said he would rather have the sex. So [00:34:00] somehow somehow I was thinking, You know, deep down in our psyche, deep down inside who we are as gay men, maybe the community Maybe this this community that we're developing and showing is not feeding what our deepest desires are. Maybe we need to address this issue of supporting relationships. So that's a bit of a side track I've gone off on. But yeah, that was a big issue for me. Describe for me some of the campaigns [00:34:30] that you undertook as a prevention manager. Well, there was one that I did a series of workshops that ran over a period of about three months. And there were I had other people involved in running workshops which were aimed at looking at all sorts of things, like, you know, self esteem. Um, managing safe sex, erotic massage, looking at alternative ways to enjoy yourself sexually. You know, there was a large there was a large number of, [00:35:00] um and I mean that those things like that worked really well for the people that got involved in them. And there were some obviously, you know, people would hear about it and know about it and talk about it. But you still had. This problem is that they weren't getting out to lots and lots and lots and lots of people. And then and then also there was there were there were the big publicity campaigns, like the AIDS Foundation. Not just me, but this [00:35:30] was the AIDS Foundation as a whole. On the national level in 1990 did a a very hard hitting campaign, which was really based on the notion of, um, aid is dangerous. It can kill you. It's here. Every time you do something, you you're at risk, you know, don't fuck around, so to speak. And this had a number of steps. Um, and it it had [00:36:00] a very broad publicity. I mean, it even had some stuff on TV if I remember rightly and sitting in the newspapers and in all throughout the gay, um, you know, the gay venues and the gay press. And this was this was, I guess, the point where I started to think about OK, this is this is all very well, um, people need to take this really, really seriously, but I think they are, too. But they do need to. But there's something else [00:36:30] we need to be able to celebrate who we are as gay men. No, HIV is this horrible, horrible thing that's happened, and yet we should. We should be just joyous about who we are. Our sexuality should be an incredibly joyful, wonderful thing. So I began to think about how what we could do about that and then then also tied into that thing of like with the imperative that it's imperative. It's really [00:37:00] important that people have a really strong sense of community. Research is showing very, very clearly that people have a strong sense of community managing safe sex. Be better people who have good self esteem about who they are and managing safe, safe, be better. And so this eventually. But the my first idea was like, Why don't we have a festival at the end of this campaign that says OK, yes, it's serious. Yes, it's bad, but we are great. We can actually merge us. We are fantastic [00:37:30] and we can actually be lovers of each other in a way that is safe and wonderful. No, this is this is what eventually evolved into the hero party. Really? Hm. and it was quite amazing. But, um, you know, those different strands that come together and build the concept of hero into into a very strong idea at the time. And it took the the community imagination, [00:38:00] which is great. I mean, I can remember a lot of opposition to having a party, a lot, a lot of opposition within the community. No, you're ridiculous. This is totally the wrong thing to do. We will oppose it from some groups within the community. Like some of the gay groups in the community. Um, yeah. And within a year, those people were just completely behind it because because it worked. And one of the things one of the things that I think worked [00:38:30] really well was just the very concept of hero. Because we all our lives have been told that we're you know, when when we went, I had this group of volunteers and I have to say that even though you you know, I was the central organiser for this I had this group of volunteers who were fantastic and all of these people were just like it. I mean, all all kudos goes to all of them. You know, But anyway, we were brainstorming about what are we going to call [00:39:00] this thing? And the things came up like, No, that's not the right idea at all. Um, pride? No, that's a bit cliched and not not. It's not quite hitting where we want to go. You know, various various ideas came up and then one person don baman sort of said hero. And I was like, No, because I mean, you know, the first thing you hear of his hero at that time was sort of like the muscle brain, muscle bound action man who's shooting a whole lot of people, which is about as unheroic as you could possibly [00:39:30] get, in my view. But I remember driving home that night and thinking about that term hero and thinking. My God, gay people. Gay people need to acknowledge they are here their own heroism. We are heroic, you know. We grew up in this environment that is completely negative around us. We survive that we learn to stand up and be who we are. For most of us, we spend our childhood coming up [00:40:00] so much in is is against us. And yet we managed to come through that that's not heroic. What is little kids growing up into full human beings who are able to eventually stand up and say This is who I am, like it or lump it, particularly back at that time We are. We are facing this incredibly disgusting epidemic, and we're doing it with great heroism, you know? I mean, the more I thought about that term hero, the more I thought We [00:40:30] are heroes and we need to acknowledge it and that by acknowledging our heroes, it's like we can our heroes and we can start to acknowledge our own self esteem as well. You know, if we can, we can start to feel you know how good we really are. And then it was like, OK, let's let's make this not just into a party but into a whole festival. Get more and more people involved, get volunteers involved. And so I put a lot of energy into just talking, talking, publicising, [00:41:00] writing, talking, talking, talking, getting the idea out there and at work, you know, just snowball, and I was very happy with how how that went. In fact, it's quite interesting. I'm getting quite emotional when I sort of remember some of those parts because I can remember on the night of the first hero party down the railways, and it had been a hell of a lot of work putting it together. And [00:41:30] you know, this the group of people who put it together were just fantastic. And that one was that the first hero was targeted at gay men again. But we had some of the women, some of the women from the lesbian community come, and there was incredible support for that. And, um, I can remember after all the effort and all the work and everything and this wonderful party that happened, it was really, really great. And just standing there, my job had stopped. I mean, it was still, you know, I was gonna have to close up and all this sort of thing, But my my, [00:42:00] the the worries had stopped. And just looking out at this group of people dancing and and just feeling incredibly proud, I'm just incredibly proud of my people at that time. Mm. Those are big emotions, and yeah, I mean, [00:42:30] I guess those and those big emotions are emotions of love. Really. It's just like I love these people. I love my people, you know. And of course, through all of that I mean, we're using a hero as a vehicle for the promotion of safe sex and promotion of conduct. I mean, it was just it was just really, really part of it. But I think more important than that was just this thing of like realising that you're a good person, realising that you're a person who's who's worth [00:43:00] keeping safe. Yeah, I think I think that's a very fundamental issue. And so after after the success of that and the group of guys that I worked with, they were fantastic. I mean, you know, I had a job to do they But they were just all volunteers and they put on a huge amount of effort and energy and, um, everyone was quite elated by how successful it was and we had made $5000 profit as well. [00:43:30] So not only had we had a very, very successful HIV programme awareness programme prevention programme, but we've made 5000 dollars for there was a sum. It might have been two times $5000 but no, it was $5000 2500 went to AIDS prevention and 2000 went to A to to, um aid support the support networks. So we decided to do another one and it grew. And the second one, the second one was even [00:44:00] more fantastic. Yeah, they were incredible. I'm wondering. I just want to rewind just a wee bit. And prior to the first one happening, why do you think some groups were anti having AAA festival or a party? I think that they felt it would be would be a waste of money, that it's money that could be spent on support and prevention programmes. And um, [00:44:30] I think I think that was really what they thought of. I think I thought think that they thought it would be a failure and a waste of money. I think that's what it was about. And, you know, I having made a profit that we were able to disperse even though it was 2002. 5 grand. Each seems a very small amount now, but for us, who are you know who were being told? We're going to lose a whole lot of money on this venture to have made that profit was it felt really good. And and the groups that [00:45:00] were sceptical I mean, they were sceptical for their own good reasons. I guess they became really, really supportive by for the next year. So yeah, that was all good. I suppose we're also putting it in context because HIV and AIDS have progressed from the late eighties to where you've actually got people. Quite a lot of people dying now, In the early nineties, what was the kind of prognosis and and what was the kind of, um, yeah, prognosis for [00:45:30] somebody with with HIV a ID in the early nineties. I'm trying to remember a ZT must have been around by then. I'm trying to remember when you know the drug cocktails really started and where it became, like, a long term living with the virus. Um, but I don't I don't remember, but I'm certainly. Then, uh, we felt that people could [00:46:00] go pretty soon. I mean, I remember one person that he gave me honour. I was given that in fact, I was given that picture. Um, as as a community. Thank you for doing hero, too. And it was a photo taken by, um, Neil Trigo and Neil. Give me at about the time we were doing hero two had, you know, he well, he was looking at HIV, and I remember him telling me I, I might get [00:46:30] a bit sobbed telling you this bit too. But in in hero two, which was down Wharf, he had done a lot of stuff for us. And I remember him telling me how he went up somewhere and was watching, you know, looking over everyone and just feeling so sad because he was not going to be part of this anymore. Very soon, which was pretty. It was, you know, a sobering, devastating moment. Really, Because he was a he [00:47:00] was he, like so many were just a wonderful, wonderful man. You know, the person I was telling you about who I met with, and Nigel and Nigel was one of the first person I knew who died of AIDS in Sydney. I went and saw him over in Sydney, and he was he had turned into this little and shrunk it. Things do with this incredible sense of humour has an incredible sense of irony and naughtiness. But yeah, [00:47:30] so, yes, I think at that stage it was still, you know, you weren't gonna last long. That's a general feeling. That must be such a hard kind of thing to deal with. Just the idea that that that, you know, it might only be a couple of years for for most of these, these people to to live and And there actually is no hope on the horizon at that at that stage. Yeah, for some. Yeah. [00:48:00] I mean, you on. On the other hand, you had people like Ray who, if I remember rightly way back in 1984 was, you know, it was like he was still going strong after six years, and it just seemed like he almost seemed like a miracle. You know, I in comparison to what was happening. So, yes, it was very hard watching, and it was and how, how hard it must have been for the people who had to deal with that, you know, themselves. But is this wonderful [00:48:30] thing called life and it's gonna be taken away from you very, very soon. A terrible, sad, sad thing. So trying to garner support for the first hero What was that like in terms of getting volunteers and and getting the message out. I had this team, I think, about 12 in my AIDS prevention group who were just fantastic. As I've already said. You know, they really they had energy and enthusiasm and we would meet once a week or so. [00:49:00] And I remember, you know, we'd have a need for something and we'd get someone else and and someone else would come. And then when it got time that we had to start doing lots of because really, the only really big thing we did the first year was the party. That was a very big party, but that's when we began to actually put the party into place. That's when we had to start drawing more and more people in and they just seem to and come along. [00:49:30] I don't I don't remember. I mean, it was probably just word of mouth from people. I don't remember putting a huge amount of energy into myself advertising or asking for volunteers then. So I think it was just that that enthusiasm snowballed and, you know, groups of people would have said, Oh, come along and help. Yeah, I guess there wasn't an hero, too. I mean, that had just grown so much that we put a lot of energy into making the volunteer [00:50:00] group, and we ended up having over 400 registered volunteers for hero, too. Just people in the community putting their energy. And it was fantastically great. I think I think that what hero did for the community and the community sense of itself at that time was very, very good. Very good and very important. Yeah, I can remember Dennis. And how? What was his name? Dennis, Dennis and Stewart of [00:50:30] who had, who had run the clubs and pubs here in Auckland for ages. And Dennis came up to me and said, You know, this has been the most fantastic night of my life, and that just that that was a pretty incredible moment, You know, to hear that from him, I was like, Dennis, I'm so glad to have been able to give that to you, you know, discrete. [00:51:00] So was hero, actually based on anything say from overseas? How How did the idea come up? No, not really. I mean, obviously there was a thing. You know, in Sydney they had Mardi Gras and So the community festival, that notion was there, but in terms of in terms of what Hero was trying to do No, there was nothing that I was aware of anywhere else in the world like that. Um, and the notions of of the hero is, [00:51:30] anyway has been significant. Although I noticed that that began to be taken up for a while for a while afterwards by overseas by gay magazines and the like, but, um, but it was pretty much a homegrown, you know, apart from the the idea of a party in the pistol just there. But apart from that, it was pretty much a homegrown idea. Yeah, you you've mentioned research a couple of times, and one of the people that's kind of been [00:52:00] with the AIDS Foundation from the kind of year Doctor is Tony Hughes. Can you talk to me about the importance of, like, kind of basing stuff on research and Tony's work? Well, um, Tony, Tony and I didn't really have too much to do with each other then. My work with research was, um you know, my knowledge of research was through my own reading. To a certain extent, it was a very strange situation. Back then, there had been a lot of conflict between the aid support networks [00:52:30] throughout the country and the national organisation called the AIDS Foundation, which was the overall governing body. And, um, we were both the A support networks were, in a sense, strangled, um, through a period of time, including this time going out to ER, which caused a lot of resentment. So a lot of what I did was actually off on my own bat. But I can't I mean, Tony, Tony's. What Tony [00:53:00] was doing was more than more than more than any other level that I was aware of at a governmental level at official level. So he was he was. He and the foundation were working to change policies and politics, which is really, really important stuff, but it there doesn't seem to be a great connection between that work at the governmental level and our work at the community level. [00:53:30] Yeah, to me, I didn't I didn't feel that. So did the first hero have a theme? Well, you know, just I mean, just really that hero like, be the hero that be the recognise your own heroism. I think we had spoken something like, Come as the hero you are or something. I remember actually, you know, there was this quote who who was a psychotherapist [00:54:00] who worked with a lot of men with HIV, and I was speaking to her. We went, we had lunch together one day and I was speaking to her as I was driving her back to the clinic in the car. And I said, You know, this whole thing about hero, it's really important, and you must find when you're working with me and you must see the heroism of their life. And she came out with what became a seminal quote for me, and I'm not going to get it right. But I'm going to do my best. And it was something like, um for someone to go through. What? No, [00:54:30] I'm not going to get anywhere near. It was so good what you said. But she said, for someone to go through all the difficulties that you know, gay people go through and people with HIV people go through to to have the whole world seeming to tell you that No, you are wrong and then to stand up and say this is the truth of who I am. She said that is the true heroism. It was like four. You know what a what [00:55:00] a beautiful expression of what I was trying to, you know, trying to do. So it is that that was the theme. Like, recognise your own heroism. Honour yourself. Love yourself. Yeah. Had you ever organised something like this before? Not like that. No, no. I'd organised community events before. And, you know, when I in my days I was doing [00:55:30] different, But nothing of this. This type of magnitude, and the irony of it is I'm not actually into parties. I don't like parties. I don't like gay clubs. I never have. You know, I've been in Sydney twice while Maori grows on. Never been to the party because I don't want to. I'm not interested. So Yeah, There you go. Describe for me the, um the the the kind of set up. What kind of, um, space did you use And how was it? Kind of decorated. [00:56:00] Decorated. If it was decorated for the first one. The second one, the first one. The first one. It was down at the, um uh, the rail sheds are not They're not there anymore. That in fact, I think they were demolished very, very soon after the old rail sheds down, um, on beach road, I forget even the name of the road. And it was this wonderful old shed with two railways coming in with a platform in the middle and a platform [00:56:30] on either side. But Harry Potter is really and, um, this big, massive space. And we managed to get an old steam engine to be parked there for, as, you know, part of our decor. And we built this bridge, this bridge of flowers and joy sort of over between the two platforms that people would walk across. And I think most of I mean, we did lots of lighting. We had John [00:57:00] Draper, who, you know, was a man with HIV who died not long after that. But he was he was fantastic. You know, too. There are so many people who are fantastic. I mean, there's just, you know, I. I could spend the whole time just giving names and still, you know, be going. Um, yeah, and we had a stage over there for the shows and different things. we had different. I think the [00:57:30] one side was sort of like for the dance floor. And the other side was more for a promenade sort of area with food and drink and the like, Yeah, that was really that was that was good and lots of enthusiastic people. I mean, that's the thing that I remember. Not so much, not so much the place, but the people who and made it happen. And the people who did it, you know, And the people who were there, [00:58:00] Yeah, The hero hero, too developed into Hero Hero Two was an extraordinary event. I mean, just again for the people, the people, the people, the people were really, really great. And we at Broadhead who had been, you know, a fantastic director came and he sort of did the overall [00:58:30] direction of the party show. And we had a very clear theme in that which was the the theme of the hero's journey. Um, Joseph Campbell. This was another thing. Part of my own sort of research in doing this was Joseph Campbell had written about how our own personal development, um is is what the hero's journey is all about. All these heroes stories, you know, from Star Wars to the grim fairy tales to all of these heroes, stories [00:59:00] are reflections or a analogies of our own personal development. And so what I wanted to do was create this whole space that would reflect the hero's journey, the journey from darkness into into empowerment and light and, you know, living happily ever after for gay men. And also at this stage, we had decided we'd had a lot of discussion about it. We decided to make this again lesbian event because it's like, OK, we're going We you know, we want to set this up as [00:59:30] a broad community. The women have been fantastic. The the community is going to be much stronger if we see it as a gay and lesbian community because they are part of our community. And, you know, I mean, there's issues, always, always, but yeah, so it became a gay and lesbian. It started to become a gay and lesbian. Through that and the hero's journey. We had, um and, um, Michael Palmata play the hero, the [01:00:00] archetypal hero, and he had to go. He had to start from a place of darkness and go through lots of challenges and things that gave me in face, you know, people calling him faggot and queer and you know, the dangerous things. And then he met some good people on the way, and this journey took him right around the inside of this massive venue That was sort of about three stories tall inside, and and, um, you know, some of it, he was up in the air. And so it was at one stage, he he was walking across [01:00:30] people's heads, and, um, at one stage, he was on the swing underneath a water fountain and projected by a laser onto the fountain. Or all these words like queer faggot. You know, the the really negative words that gets around that gay people, And he just sort of like the character just became cow between beneath all these things, like the damage that those words do to us, the concepts. And then and then he just sort of, like came [01:01:00] out like No, no, no, that is not that is not who I am. And I think at that stage he did, um, a Freddie Mercury song somewhere. It was one of those songs that Freddie me really does. I'm into classical music, so I don't even know what the song is. But anyway, it was one of those sort of like heroic, you know, big. Sort of like, Wow, that's fantastic sort of songs. And, um then he and Tale Mato came [01:01:30] from opposite ends, walking on planks across the head of the audience that were being carried by people. So they they seem to be walking across the sea. Of all the gay men had these big wings on because he was, like the angel of love, and they met in the in the middle and then sort of were hoisted up into the light together, as you know, and people just went crazy over that. It was just It was fantastic. Worked really, really well. So yeah, [01:02:00] that was That was the thing that in that second hero, where was that held? There was a Princess Wharf. And what's now that big hotel ship sort of thing. I mean, so we had that along then there. Yeah, well, we we haven't really talked about crowd sizes for the the first couple in the first one. How how big was the crowd? I think? I think it was about 1500. I think 1500 between 1,502,000. I think we got for the for the second [01:02:30] one. It went up to 5000 people came. So it was a big party. It was fantastic. And how Thinking back to the first hero, how supportive was the AIDS Foundation in in in doing something like this? Because if it had never been done before, what was the thinking in terms of what you were trying to achieve? Well, of course, the I and a foundation an employee, but nevertheless, um, as a as an Auckland community person. [01:03:00] My experience with the AIDS Foundation right from the beginning had been that every project that I or the community group ran, um, was run under Duris, and with a lot of difficulty, we had to fight for support. It seemed to me quite often sometimes there was not enough support. Um, and there were times that I got into trouble for, um going ahead with projects [01:03:30] before I got approval. Because approval was not coming repeatedly repeated, repeated. And then I realised they were aren't going to approve this, So I'm just gonna go ahead and do it. Um, I don't I know that I know that there have been statements, someone someone has said some stuff about. It's quite controversial about, um, a foundation, lack of support and what we had to do in order to go ahead with it. I don't remember that specifically. And I'm sure [01:04:00] that person would have told the truth. I don't remember that specifically. All I know is that it was actually quite a fight. It was politically politically fraught as always. Well, I mean, once it became as and I guess that from their point of view, um, they were just really concerned with protecting what needed. You know, they they had they saw things the way that they saw things, and that seemed the right way for them to be acting to them. But, um, yeah, in the end, I mean, for [01:04:30] the second year, they were very supportive of what happened here. I became the flavour of the month, and, um, it was see to it was seen that it had worked and it worked very, very successfully. So after that, my organisation became very supportive of it. Yeah, what were the differences between the first hero and the second hero. Well, I think I think the big difference is where, um that the first, the first hero, had set a foundation. [01:05:00] So we built on that foundation. The first hero had been singularly targeted at gay men. The second hero became much more broadly targeted at lesbians and and at bisexual, transgender and intersex people, too, to an extent, um, so it was sort of growing outwards becoming more embracing. So it became not just an AIDS prevention target, but it became a community Auckland community building for you know, those of us who chose [01:05:30] to see yourself as queer in some way or another, um, the party itself became much, much bigger. Um, it was it was a much bigger production, and it has some pretty amazing things going on in it. Um, and also more things began to happen up and around it. Like as in the festival. Like I think heroic gardens started that year. Um, [01:06:00] maybe that was the year the the hero rugby team got going. But there were more. There were more events beginning to happen around the the party itself. Yeah. And what about the parade. When did the parade start happening? The parade started the following year. So at the end of that year, after hero two, I became quite ill, which I thought was just, um which I thought was just burn out. And it turned out [01:06:30] to be chronic fatigue, whatever that is. I still don't know what it is, but I seem to have it. And, um But I did. I didn't realise that I wasn't going to be able to carry on this this job. It was a huge job. And I had Scott Johnson who had been the party coordinator the year before, and Bruce Kilmister, who had been treasurer. They between them pretty much took it on with the with the support of a whole of other people. And I still played a part in the in the side. But it was definitely they sort [01:07:00] of pulled it into the future. And it was it was them who were responsible for bringing making the parade happen. And and I mean, what was really great about the parade, because I think that I think that hero too, had been fantastic within our community. But the parade actually forced this issue out into the wider public in a very brazen, blatant, proud, excellent way. It was very, very good. And and [01:07:30] I think that you know what? What's the name? Hayes wandering around with his little city cam, taking photographs of men and but naked bottoms and chaps so that you know what? What? Isn't this just ironic? Here is this man good Christian City Councillor, so outraged by the fact that we have get that we have men with naked bottoms in their chaps in public view that are all you know how? I mean, if you're standing on a parade, how much do you see of a man? The bottom walking bazzle [01:08:00] Japs? Not very much. He took really close up shots, gave the TV so that these naked pictures could be plastered into every television lounge lounge in the whole of the country. And a much bigger view than you'd ever, ever see in a parade. Just so that people could be outraged. Idiots. Morons, anyway. But yeah, the pride was good. The pride is good, [01:08:30] and I and that the second year I did a float and I had the energy to do a float and and again great group of volunteers. And it was just great fun just working. You know, this time I was a volunteer and from the, you know, from the stop days, all the way through here, I've been a paid person. But now here I was just another community volunteer again, and it was great. I really loved it. I really loved just being in there, working with a group of people and doing it for nothing but love. [01:09:00] Uh, those first parades. Were they through Ponsonby? No. The first two were through Queen Street, and it was great going down Queen Street. In fact, if you asked me to vote, I'd say stay in Queen Street. But I think the City Council didn't really want us in there. Um, good old Mills. And we were moved up to Ponton. There are also people on the hero committee at that stage who favoured Ponsonby Road [01:09:30] too. Sort of like it's our space. Yeah, I remember going to have a meeting with Liz Mills, who was mayor at the time. Now he allocated quarter an hour for me to discuss issues about I can't remember what it was about. It was about hero, and it was about his involvement in the council involvement. The council support, and he had expressed his reluctance and negativity about it. If I wanted to go down [01:10:00] and talk with him was really interesting that I went in there and I sat and talked with him. He had allocated quarter an hour. I ended up having about an hour and a half, which astonished me that he gave me that much time and I didn't manage, as far as I know, to budge his opinion, one little jot that he didn't trench mine. So, yeah, that was interesting. [01:10:30] What was the council's, um, response or, um, support for the first couple of hearing, Uh, the first one and the second one nonexistent. You know, we approached them. It was just like, you know, get out of here. You pack of faggots? Yeah. I mean, it was like this. The Herald. You know, I think it was not until 92. And I remember having an argument with the editor of the Herald about this too. They would not use the word gay, anything that we did. It was a homosexual event, [01:11:00] a homosexual this and I said, we gay people use the word gay. We will not use the word gay Gay means happy and blithe and merry. I said no, it doesn't. Anyway, people you know, we did. Yeah, it was just hard work working sometimes with these people. So, yes, the council was not very, very supportive at all at the time that it was a very conservative council with, um Les Mills. And what's his name? Hay. Who was the son? Doug. [01:11:30] Doug Hay was it? I can't remember whose father had been the one when homosexual law reform is happening. And this is so good. This was way back in the first homosexual law reform. And his father, who's got a house overlooking the sewer ponds, um, in SRO. And he said he was sitting there in his house one night in his chair. This is in the Herald. I mean, it's still that article was still search in the Herald, and he heard this voice calling [01:12:00] out, and he got up from his chair and he went out into the garden above the sewer pond and spread his arms wide and said, Oh, Lord, what does thou want? And the Lord said unto them, Keith, I have got want you to lead this fight against homosexuality. You are going to stop homosexual law reform. I mean, the man was a lunatic. It was just absolutely nutty, nutty, nutty, [01:12:30] nutty, just extraordinary. Anyway, it was his son who was the one bus he photographing bottoms and his son Doug. I'm pretty sure it was Doug. Doug, Whatever. Whatever his name was, he was a man in his late fifties. At least by that stage, just I wouldn't stoop so low. So there you go. What was the, um the the the the media attitude at the time? I mean, did did [01:13:00] Did hero get on TV? It was mixed. We did get, Yes. I mean, there were people in the media who are really, really supportive and individuals and groups within the media. We got a reason we got the first hero party, didn't get media coverage that I'm aware of, but I'm not even sure we look for it. I mean, we we looked for a bit to promote it, but I don't think we wanted, you know, it wasn't an issue of trying to make it a public issue In fact, it probably wasn't till he [01:13:30] three that the idea of it being a, you know, a public issue became out there. But I remember a hero, too, that I was interviewed on the wharves about about it for TV. And, you know, the interviews all went on. So yeah, II, I think the media, The Herald, the Herald then was incredibly conservative, and I mean, it still is to an extent, but it's a heck of a lot better. So we didn't get a great amount [01:14:00] from The Herald, But then in the first two years, first two or three years. But you know, these things gradually change. It's like gay marriage. Eventually it has to happen. What was the feeling you got out of the second hero party? For me? It was astonishing. For me. It was astonishing that so many people had such a great time for me. It was astonishing that so many people came up to me and said, This has just been the most amazing time [01:14:30] and and I think that what what it did. Was it just It just made you feel really good about being gay, And for me, it was like being gay doesn't have to be this. I mean, because, you know, I don't know whether this is true or not, but I'd like to think that that that the first two parties didn't have much dope and dope and, um, booze and, you know, I'm a bit conservative, So I one of those gay feuds, I mean, [01:15:00] I've I've done my fair share of drugs when I was a youngster. So, um, you know, don't be a hypocrite here, but I really don't think they do you a great deal of good. Um, and I did not get the feeling that there was much, you know, you know, I mean, how the gay circuit party sort of in the late nineties and the early two hundreds became just fueled by ecstasy and all sorts of other things. I'm not aware of that happening [01:15:30] at all much in the first two hero parties, and I think that was part of what made them work. So well, one thing we haven't talked about is the, uh, hero newspaper slash magazines that that you were putting out. All right, tell me about those. Well, they were They were sort of I guess the way the vehicle to carry some of the messages through. And for the first one, I can't remember. We printed thousands, and the second we thousands, too. First one, what probably [01:16:00] had 32 pages or something in it, and it was all really about it was all it. It was it was built. It was written around the idea of reframing who we are as gay people focusing on this idea of our heroism that that, you know, that we weren't victims. We weren't We weren't, um, nasty people. Um, we weren't people who just had to fight that we're actually all right, you know, we are wonderful, you know? [01:16:30] And so it had lots of stories of gay heroes in the past, and it had a central section of New Zealand gay heroes and I there was myself and another guy, Uri Klein, who actually did most of the work on that, I think Oh, and no, that was the second one that Steve worked on. Steve. Steven. See, once I start naming names, it becomes very difficult because there was so many people who put so much energy into this. So to name one means to miss out 10, if you know what I mean. [01:17:00] But yeah. And then for the second hero paper it just again. It was It was made with the intention of, um, enhancing and consolidating and strengthening, making that message resonate even more strongly. Um, which is, you know, self esteem, safe sex, heroism all tied in together. Yeah. [01:17:30] Where did you find the time to actually put put something like that together when you're also kind of organising? No, I didn't. That was That was sort of part of that was part of that was part of my life. Then I didn't find the time. I had been told that at the time that I was going to be getting clerical support. So I had gone ahead and planned this whole party based on this notion that I'd be getting, um, a full time or at least half time clerical support. Um, and it never [01:18:00] eventuated. So I actually found myself really struggling because so much had been set in motion and I wasn't gonna let these balls drop. So the only thing, and during the day, I just didn't have time to stop. I mean, it was just constantly stuff going on all the time. So the only time I had to do the paper was overnight. And so for two weeks, I, um for two weeks, I worked every second night on the paper and only sit every alternate night. And [01:18:30] at the time, I, I mean, I was enjoying it. I felt good. It was a bit exhausting, but, um, I was a driven man at that time. Yeah, And at the end, we got it out, and and I you know, there was a reasonable amount of anxiety about it, and I had a fantastic person helping me with the design of it. Steve Stevens. So, yeah, we got it out in the end on time. [01:19:00] Hero continued on for quite a number of years. After that, I'm wondering, would I mean, would you like to comment on how a hero progressed? Some, you know, after your kind of involvement diminished a wee bit. Well, I think you know, I mean, as I said to some people, then that every everyone's going to have their own ideas about what something should be and how it should develop and what it should do. Um and so it did develop in slightly different ways. I think that one of the first things that happened was the addition of [01:19:30] the parade, which was just, you know, it was a wonderful bonus. Um, one of the things I've done in setting up the organisation to run hero and I. I was very in my own mind. I was very clear about what needed to happen. It was you needed to have this group of people who I said I was like a board. The hero board that's self a pointing, but and their job their job is to protect is to is to look [01:20:00] after the hero notion, right? But the people running it should be. It should be community. So their job is to appoint a director and then to assist the director getting his his group of people to run it. So each year the running of the festival becomes community empowered. But the ownership of it in a sense or the the protection, the guardianship of it belongs with people who have been appointed because they have the skills to do that. And the reason I did that was because [01:20:30] I thought the moment that top level becomes a community owned thing, it'll be undermined by community politics and it. Sure enough, it was Eventually, you know, people began to be that that group, the bore, began to get more and more pressure to have community representatives on it, which they succumbed to and which eventually, you know, weakened My this is my view weakened. Um, the vision. [01:21:00] And, you know, I don't know, other things happen. Like it seemed to me that more and more people got paid and less and less people were volunteering, which also didn't help. And when that happens, commercial, um, issues become more important than ideals. But, hey, I shouldn't even say all this stuff because because, uh, on on the most basic level everyone who did it, everyone who had a part to play in it did, did [01:21:30] what they believe was the best possible. And, you know, there were some wonderful time and wonderful years through that. Yeah. So when you look back at your time and those early heroes, what are your proudest moments? You know, my proudest moment is is actually that one time on hero one looking at all the people looking at what [01:22:00] the you know, feeling pride for the people who had being involved a group of volunteers and feeling pride in being one of these people being, you know, a gay man in this group of people. I mean, that is the one that immediately springs to mind formally. Um, but in talking about, you know, there were there were a lot of other things, like, [01:22:30] I guess that there are moments of pride to like going to the first memorial First AIDS Memorial that happened in Auckland. And I can remember the person. I think it was a vicar who spoke. He spoke. He gave a reasonably long sermon acknowledging HIV and how terrible it was and all the rest of it and the whole sermon. He never once even intimated that this was an issue affecting gay men, even though the only people just about who were having the disease [01:23:00] at that stage were gay men, which I found really confronting. So when we got to speak, I got up straight away and talked about Nigel, who had been the you know, I said that one of my first lovers, Nigel bummer, had died from HIV. And how proud I was of him and everything that he had done. He had been the first AIDS activist I'd known in New Zealand. So I, I felt very proud of that of that [01:23:30] moment, too. Um and and I mean pride, I guess those I can't, You know, those two do stand out as moments of pride. Um, there's not many more that I'd actually say. And moments of pride, you know, the moments of pleasure or joy or satisfaction or, um, you know, [01:24:00] a sense of achievement. But I guess those two those two are moments of pride. One being I'm proud of it to be in this community. I'm proud of these people who I work with and the other being I'm proud of this one man who died of HIV. And I'm proud of myself for having the guts to stand up and say, Hey, this is about This is about gay men. Don't Don't leave us out. Yeah.

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TITLE: Robin Duff profile
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VOICES: Robin Duff
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1950s; 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Befriend (Christchurch); Campaign for Homosexual Equality (CHE); Carmen Rupe; Charles Allan Aberhart; Christchurch; Club 69 (Christchurch); Colin Moyle; Crimes Amendment Bill (1974, Venn Young); Crimes Amendment Bill (1979, Warren Freer Bill); Dorian Society; Fran Wilde; Frank Sargeson; Gay Activists Society (Christchurch); Gay Liberation Christchurch; Gay Liberation Front; Gay Liberation Front Auckland; Gay Liberation Front Christchurch; Gay Liberation Front Wellington; Gay Liberation Wellington; Gay Teachers Union; Gaylink (Christchurch); HIV / AIDS; Hagley Park; Halt All Racist Tours (HART); Hasting Boys High School; Hastings; Hawke's Bay Equality Society; Hawke's Bay Herald-Tribune; Heterosexuals Unafraid of Gays (HUG); Homosexual Electoral and Legislative Lobby (HELL); Homosexual Law Reform Society; Human Rights Act (1993); Human Rights Commission; Ian Scott; Impulse conference (1973); Iran; Jack Goodwin; Juliet Hulme; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Lindsay Taylor; Marilyn Waring; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Marxism; Mike Waghorne; National Gay Liberation conferences; National Gay Rights Coalition; National Gay Rights Conference; Nelson; New York City; New Zealand Tablet; New Zealand Values Party; Nga Tamatoa; Ngahuia Te Awekotuku; Otago Gay Equality Society (OGES); Pat Downey; Pauline Parker; Pink Triangle collective; Rainbow Taskforce for Safe Schools (PPTA); Ray Farrelly; Robert Muldoon; Robin Duff; Rule Foundation; Society for Promotion of Community Standards; Stonewall riots (1969); The Press (Christchurch); Tony Brunt; Trevor Richards; United States of America; Venn Young; Warren Freer; Welby Ings; Wellington; Wolfenden report; activism; advertising; age of consent; bullying; civil unions; coming out; community; counselling; crime; cruising; decriminalisation; direct action; drag; education; entrapment; equality; feminism; friends; gay; gay liberation movement; growing up; history; homophobia; homophobic bullying; homosexual law reform; human rights; identity; language; law; lesbian; media; newspapers; police; politics; pride; profile; queer; radio; regions; rugby; school; sexuality; social; social justice; socialism; sport; suicide; support; surveillance; teaching; transexual; visibility; women's liberation movement; youth
DATE: 7 April 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Robin Duff talks about many of the activist groups he was involved with in the 1970s, being the first openly gay man in New Zealand to stand for Parliament, and the beginnings of the National Gay Rights Coalition which grew into a membership of 65,000 people. Robin died on 16 February 2015. This podcast was made possible through generous support from the Rule Foundation.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name's Robin Duff. I was, uh, born in the Hawke's Bay in Hastings in 1947 and grew up primarily there, although occasionally the family wasn't particularly well off. But, uh, we did, uh, often go for, uh, an annual holiday, most commonly to, uh, to Clifton and, um, in my father's treasured possession, his, uh, home built caravan. And, uh, I spent many of our very [00:00:30] happy summer days. Uh, there, um, most of the time. Uh, certainly those very early childhood days. I didn't really remember much until I struck. Uh, I suppose primary school basically park Vale school in Hastings. And they were just a little to the side of Hastings in the Windsor area. And, uh uh, that's where I suppose I became a little more aware of things. And in particular, I suspect, um, um, the differences that I sometimes often [00:01:00] felt and certainly felt them later. Can you expand on that? Yes. Um, I think that, um it was rather unusual because in those days there wasn't a great deal of publicity, and, uh, so the issue, unless there were sensational cases like the case or or something of that nature that were brought to the attention. I suppose of the media that you heard anything and even the term homosexuality was always sort of whispered in in rooms rather [00:01:30] than actually spoken out loudly and certainly in a public context. Um, so a sort of awareness, I suppose, for me in those primary years. And I certainly remember from about the age of eight or nine becoming, I suppose, conscious that I I was a little different. Everything was, uh, doctors and nurses and, you know, husbands and wives. And so whilst I was perfectly happy to accept that, that's how you know how things worked. There seemed to be things about me that were a little different. And the excitement [00:02:00] about I suppose males was always a little greater than than I thought was probably acceptable. Although at that time it was just a very generally blurry thing. And I was just cautious, I suppose, about what I said to people and how I acted in public. Um, even sort of those rough sports like rugby tended to, uh, to have a a little, um uh, reluctance. But I know I was experimenting with things at that time and uh, with some amusement. Remember, [00:02:30] having painted all my toenails, uh, bright, uh, nail polish and being asked then to take my shoes and socks off and play rugby? I ended up actually playing rugby in my socks because I was too embarrassed to actually show that the nail polish. So it was sort of a growing awareness, I suppose, in those times about things. Did you have any language at that time? Um, like, words like homosexual, or I mean, did did you kind of know what it was? Uh, basically no I. I only became aware of it. Uh, I think [00:03:00] as when I went to Hastings Boys High School and a boys school, I suppose. You know, um, same sex behaviour tended to be in a in a much more sort of experimental context. So very often I began to realise that I was much more attracted to men than women. Uh, although I got on, you know, very, very well with women and and always enjoyed their company. But it just never seemed to, you know, to flower much further than that. [00:03:30] Um and so that sort of feeling, I think, just slowly grew. And there were things happening around me, I. I was involved in an outdoor sort of nature camp programme based in Cape Kidnappers. And so there were times when you know those kids, we it around on the nude and, you know, did the things that kids do at that sort of age. Uh, but there was always that fear that it seemed to Yeah, I think fear is the word where it seemed to, um, we're not quite the same [00:04:00] and and different. So I hadn't put the term homosexuality onto it, uh, as a term. But just that I I like guys generally and being around guys more than I like being around women. And did you feel kind of comfortable with those feelings? Or was it something you kind of thought? Um, no, I felt actually quite comfortable about them right through. Uh, you know, the sort of first same sex sexual contact was when I was 89 at primary school. And [00:04:30] there was sort of a regular group of us then, uh, who were sort of mildly sexually active. And I never felt no, it seemed good, and it seemed fine. And I I'd always sort of believed that. You know, uh, if it wasn't doing any particular harm to anybody and I felt OK, then there was no problems. I think that helped me a lot later because I felt a lot more confident and calm when things did come through despite the, you know, the moments when there was indeed family trauma, but [00:05:00] by and large, it it certainly helped. The difficulty of the school was, uh, the awareness of same and the term homosexual coming through, uh, then did start to alert me. Um, and it was then that I began to realise that letting people know or identifying that I was strongly attracted to men. Uh, effectively at that time became a sort of No, no. I just, um, simply kept it away [00:05:30] from even best friends. And nothing really further happened publicly. Uh, of course, until I got to university. But the high school, it was quite significant. And certainly with the family, it was significant to say to simply say nothing. There was a silence in this period. Uh, there were two major cases in New Zealand in the courts. One was the Parker Hume murder case in the in the late fifties. And the second one was the Charles AAR killing in Hagley Park. Did in any of those either of [00:06:00] those cases kind of impact on you? Um, the earlier one. It didn't, uh I don't know whether that was simply because it was women, but in the fifties, I was only I'd only been sort of 8 to 12 in that sort of area. So before high school, it would have hit me. And it was at a time when I didn't put any particular associations. I do vaguely remember my parents being somewhat whispery about the the, um, the the murder case or the Yes, the murder trial. But I, [00:06:30] I never really can honestly say it It hit or associated, but ever had, it was quite different. Uh, it hit very dramatically because I was about to go off to university. And it was the first time that even with same behaviour I, I sort of began to realise that you could actually die. Uh, could you could actually be killed. So, whilst you know, at that time and this correspondence a lot around, [00:07:00] um, that I've subsequently read around the time was suggesting that people were becoming more, you know, inverted, commas, liberal or more accepting, or at least getting to the point of saying, you know, well, these people shouldn't be throwing. And I even remember my mother saying, You know, these people shouldn't be thrown into jail. Um, which was very, very, very encouraging, you know, to actually hear. And, uh and also because a couple of gay men clearly appeared in our family and friendship circles. And whilst no [00:07:30] one was introduced in that light, you know, there were things about them that I thought, Oh, and that was where this increasing awareness probably over at that time, it was my 3rd, 4th, 5th form. It's now what years, 9, 10 and 11. Uh, that that increased dramatically. And it was at, I suppose that my sixth form or year 12, level that I began to start getting crushes. And that then became quite, you know, obvious that, um, you know, this was more than [00:08:00] just, uh, you know, a part, an aspect of my personality, but that it was a rather large part. The Charles Everhart killing. Um I mean, one of the things that kind of struck me probably strikes everyone is that? Actually, all of the young men that were charged of manslaughter got off. What? What kind of impact did that have on you? That was huge. I mean, there were there were two parts to it of what I, you know, was aware of at the time, the one was that the guy didn't appear [00:08:30] to be doing anything. He was walking through the park. Uh, he was going to visit his sick mother. I think he was down from Nelson, I think. Or Nelson somewhere like that, where he was living. And then, um, all of a sudden, you know, these guys had sort of, uh it was reported later, decided to, you know, beat up a queer or in the park and had gone in. And given that they actually, you know, professed that that's what they were going to do. Uh, it seemed absolutely staggering at the end that, [00:09:00] uh, one could come through Maybe, you know, with some something against your name. But in the end, there was nothing. They were completely cleared because they whether there was something I think medically about him, his heart or something, they they weren't convinced that it was actually that that you know, that the assault that had caused the death that left you a very strong feeling with me that not only could you die but also anyone who did that to you, uh, didn't necessarily [00:09:30] have to either front up or actually be held to account for what they did. So it was very, very frightening. You mentioned just before about a greater awareness of of things. And you had some family friends that potentially you were homosexual. What? What kind of things were you noticing? Uh, I think, um, the the two things and it started, I think, to arouse in me. Um, you know, I suppose, as a political sort of consciousness and awareness, Uh, because [00:10:00] it was in that that last year I actually joined the New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society. Uh, somewhat frightened of it. But as a young person, I what had come out of was just this huge, you know, uh, sparkling world word called injustice. Basically, that it just simply wasn't fair. And the second part, which is what had developed through was that everything had to be secret, that everything had to be quiet and So I became [00:10:30] aware that, um, you know, not only that was it dangerous to say anything or disclose anything about yourself. Um, but also, um, you know, it just simply wasn't desirable for a whole range of things, whether it was your, you know, your job in the future or your education or your family. Um, and that created a an unbelievable frustration. I. I really felt, uh, very much sort of trapped and caught. And I think given that I'd felt reasonably comfort about things [00:11:00] and things were OK and didn't seem to be any hassles in life, that with that awareness growing in the, you know, at at sort of the middle secondary school years in a single sex boys school, um, I think made it really hard for me and I. I attempted I. I tended to move towards, you know, withdrawing just a little bit. And a lot of people family didn't know lots of things about me. I just simply was too frightened to tell them. And so fear was a very large [00:11:30] factor in those earlier years. How would one find out about something like the homosexual Law Reform Society? Because we're in a time where, you know, we don't have things like the Internet, so you can't just go online and look it up. And how did you come to? As I remember, um, the actually brought them up to the fore. And we did get the Hawke's Bay Herald Tribune as it was then. So I did do quite a bit of, you know, a lack of reading. And so this surreptitiously, I would, [00:12:00] you know, pore over the columns and the mentioning of this association, you know, was quite regular. Uh, I think headed then by Jack Goodwin. I can't remember. Um uh, but certainly, um, I I found out later that this had developed out of the old Dorian society in Wellington and that a sort of criminal issues and legal Issues group had developed. And then they moved on to to establishing it as the New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society, which was essentially, [00:12:30] I suppose, looking at a consenting age much higher than the, you know, than the common consenting age you're looking at sort of 2021 in those years, uh, and also of this strange creature called the Wolfenden Commission. And I was fascinated about this in Britain that it occurred and increasing numbers of people just publicly saying, You know, you shouldn't be sent to jail. People should be able to live their lives and if they're not doing harm to anyone and that So you had this sort of tension [00:13:00] between on the one hand, uh, a lot of very prominent New Zealanders saying, Well, you know, it's what's the problem? Let's get over it and get on with it. Um, But on the other hand, um, you know, like a You knew that there was a very significant number of people in a society that not only would take personal objection to you, but also could be physically dangerous and even deadly, if if that was needed. So it was incredibly tense [00:13:30] and difficult time, but I sent away a slip, I think, from this or one of them, it might have been the New Zealand, uh, the Herald tribute I sent away, uh, a slip or a form and, uh, and registered with them. You've mentioned, uh, a couple of things about some of the attitudes that were happening in the sixties, um, towards homosexuality. What was the kind of attitude, say, from the police and from the system towards [00:14:00] kind of homosexuals. At that time it was it was sort of very confusing because, um and it somewhat reflected the whole sort of social structure. Uh, essentially, if everything was secret and quiet and tucked away and nobody knew everything, everything was fine. But the moment in any way, he disclosed an affection towards other, another same sex person or were in circumstances where that might be implied, [00:14:30] there could be problems. It wasn't automatic. But I remember on numbers of instances where, uh, particularly in cruising, which was probably the most common way of, you know, loitering in public places. And whilst that wasn't always, uh, focused on just sexual contact, uh, it was very often one of the only major ways, certainly, in a place like Hastings, which was incredibly quiet and very much sort of parochial. Um, [00:15:00] it was an only way, really, of making any contact with anyone who ostensibly showed same attraction. And so, um, that's probably the area where it would have been most publicly visible to people, you know, and and and I think that is where the police most often in those times, uh, were a little more severe in terms of what their reaction was, um, it varied [00:15:30] mostly occasionally it might well be just sending people home or whatever and scattering people. Because, of course, you didn't tend to hang around if the police arrive with their lights and sirens and stuff. Um, but on the other hand, through to, um, the use of loitering charges were the most common. Uh, at that time, we had a wonderful, uh, piece of, uh, legislation. And you could be charged without being of being with without visible means of support. [00:16:00] I you didn't. You had to have 70 pence or, you know, uh, 10 shillings or something on you. And of course, people didn't necessarily carry around lots of money. So that was often used maybe by police to to pick people up. And, of course, the second area in there was what became much more significant later politically. And that was entrapment. Where, you know, a specific police officer in plain clothes might well go and loiter. Uh, and, uh uh, at the moment, of course, any indication was shown or any contact [00:16:30] was made there or at any other place. Uh, the the arrest was, uh, you know, arrests were were, were used. And there are a number of instances where clearly, uh, younger gay men were used in that. And I certainly remember later of the Frank Sarge and being caught in that situation in Wellington where he was required so that he wouldn't be charged to actually, you know, proposition or act as a sort of decoy to another guy who was later [00:17:00] arrested and charged and convicted. So it was across the gamut. There was no violence as such. The police didn't. I'd never I'd never received any reports of violence. But of course, I was still in in Hastings at that time. And the only one that I'd really seen of any significance was, of course, the, uh, the murder in Haley Park. If people were charged, What kind of, um what what kind of penalties would people face? Um, pretty pretty worrying. [00:17:30] 7 to 14 years. Were they with the actual, uh, charges, Depending on the nature of it, the most indecent assault most commonly would be the seven. The seven year Um um, maximum sentence, I suppose. I don't know of any others who had got to that. But that's that was sort of in the popular consciousness. And an indecent assault would be a male assaulting a male, but just touching another male, and so that could be consensual. But it would still be in [00:18:00] indecent still be consensual. It's a little bit like the underage laws that they still exist, even if you are aware and happy and positive and enthusiastic about your contact. So, yeah, um, the other was, um the other end of it was, of course, uh, you know, penetration, I suppose. Sodomy most specifically named as, uh And that had obviously a potentially a much harsher sentence than that. Uh, if it involved two people [00:18:30] of a similar age, it seemed from what I had experienced or knew should I say, rather than experience, um, that the sentences tended to be lighter, uh, when the ages were closer. But if there was a an older man and a younger man, then, uh, often very much for the older man, the, um the penalties could be extremely severe. Um, I, I remembered with absolute horror, uh, reading, uh, at that time [00:19:00] a, um uh, a case in where a, um a much decorated, uh, man from the the war. The 1915 war. It was in 1923 or 24 somewhere thereabouts and who had returned. And he I think he'd got military cross or was particularly distinguished. He had, uh, touched a man in a park in and and he was convicted of it. Um, and two things that were horrifying [00:19:30] was the first is that on the two charges? He received two years of hard labour for each and to be cumulative. So he got four years for just touching a guy. Um, and the second thing was that the actual magistrate said that it would have been almost quoted. It would have been nobler for you to have died on the fields of battle than to have come home and suffered this disgrace. And I thought, you know, this. This is actually deemed to be worse than than the murder and [00:20:00] death. It's better for you to die. And whilst that's a pretty extreme case, it was those sorts of things that suggested that many people said later on, While it's never applied and it never happens and people aren't charged, it certainly did reduce over time, especially in the liberation years. But at that stage, it was a very real threat to people and could literally ruin them and ruin their lives. You sent away your form to the law Reform Society, to to join and joining the society. [00:20:30] What? What what did that do? All that happened was basically I just received the newsletter. They put out a regular newsletter. But it was interesting because it was the first time, um, that I'd sort of linked into anyone outside Hastings. I mean, there were no groups in Hastings, but outside Hastings and my hometown, Although I had met people in Hastings because one of the things that I also noted was that, you know, public places were an area, but there were a lot of other things going on as well. [00:21:00] And as I also found when I came to Christchurch, that there were extensive and very carefully developed social networks where so and so knew so and so sometimes it had been from sexual contact of some form, Uh, sometimes not. But there was a sort of underground social sort of party level network level that had developed and had done so in in Hastings. And so I had a little bit of link to that in my last year at school. Um, and that was sort of private parties. I suppose you'd really [00:21:30] call them, um, sometimes alcohol, a bit of alcohol, but by and large, it was, you know, social and also incredibly secret. You know, it was really a secret society, Um, and so that, you know, had quite an effect as well. So the law reform society, how did that fit with, um, you know, the kind of, like government attitudes of the day, Like, I mean, you've got a society here that's wanting to reform the law. How was that treated? Um, with considerable dislike [00:22:00] and distrust, I think there was clearly very, very little enthusiasm by, um, anyone to, you know, change the law as such, uh, and particularly outside the context of of Britain, which we were still very strongly attached to, and our laws criminal laws had basically sort of been passed down, you know, And the change of the status of the country had just been sort of whole bowl handed over. And that included the indecency [00:22:30] and and, uh um legislation related to that. So what it meant was that when we, um I suppose, um, at that time, there was a a really strong feeling that, um things were sort of liberalising a little bit and more people were saying things that were supportive, but there was still a very real fear that, um, uh, legislators could still do nasty things if they wanted [00:23:00] to. And, um, later on, well, of course, women were exempted from legislation. They there were no penalties for women. And it was at Victoria had said such things couldn't occur between women. Uh, which is a very good belief for here and certainly for for lesbian women. Uh, but there was the fear that that well, could be in the spirit of equality that, uh, women were fearful that they could, uh, they could be included under the legislation in terms of indecency, Not, um [00:23:30] So, uh, that sort of, I suppose copying over had advantages and I had disadvantages. But to legislators, whenever it came as an issue publicly seemed, uh, delighted to just avoid it basically, and to be as uninvolved as they possibly could. It wasn't a vote winner. So at the time. What was the plan of of the law Reform society to actually, How how were they going to change the law? What it it's seen from as I remember [00:24:00] then, uh, it was appealing in the sense that they had They planned to come into line with the wolfenden commission. They had recommended the effectively the decriminalisation of, um, homosexuality, and certainly in in terms of, um, homosexual acts, acts and that they it appeared to be 21 was to be the consenting age I. I remember at the time and from my own experiences [00:24:30] that this seemed still inordinately unfair. Why on earth one should be effectively five years older to do, uh, to to do something sexually, then another group who were doing almost at times, the same things. Um, but it was just the fact that they were going to use prominent people as one particular group. Uh, they were going to enlist the support of other groups, like political parties or other pressure [00:25:00] groups with similar sort of social issue agendas. And, um and I like the fact that, you know, they were actually what's the word, I suppose, preparing themselves for campaigns and being involved with them. Uh, and one thing I certainly always admired. Even though from time to time, I disagreed somewhat with Jack Goodwin. Uh, you know, the fact that he was, you know, in those days prepared to stand up and others in the law reform Society and say, Look, this is what should happen, Given my own circumstances, I thought was incredibly [00:25:30] brave. And, uh um, and and and and, uh, you know, meritorious. Really. And so I think, any feelings of inadequacy or, you know, concern about what they the the actual nature of what they wanted and how they were doing it were very often, um, shall we say, put to the side. Because here were people actually, uh, giving this dreadful silence. Um, you know, a kick in the butt. Basically Jack Goodwin tell [00:26:00] me about him because he is a a large figure in in law reform. Um, but he's also a large figure in the archives as well. Um, interesting I. I had a lot more to do with, uh uh, Jack. Um, you know, in the later stages, uh, when the bigger legislative areas came in, um and, um, I I had then and I still do have considerable admiration. As I've said for him. I mean, he was one of those first, I suppose. Another of those pioneers [00:26:30] who stood up and, you know, said things unpopular things, uh, and said them loudly and refused to stop saying them. And so that was always good and always appealing. Um, but I always remember at the 19, um, I think it was the 76 conference there just before it was set up. It was one of the I suppose one of the prods for me in terms of making negative comments about how we were doing and why we should be setting up some sort of coalition or aggregate of groups [00:27:00] was that I remember very clearly saying that politics was the art of the possible and I. I have never forgotten that phrase because I don't believe it. Never have, and I never will, even even these days. So I, um, you know, there were areas where we had great disagreement. He wanted to see 2021 or or an age like that so that that could be established in principle and then other things, like 18 or 16 or whatever else would could [00:27:30] or would or should flow from there. Um and so I, um I simply just didn't agree with that. And it was partly why I was involved with these other groups that we'll talk about it in a short while, but he, um a very relatively quiet, softly spoken man. Um, meticulously careful in what he said, Um, I fear sometimes over over cautious, but again, that's, you know, from a different perspective and a different time. [00:28:00] And we were on a different uh I suppose a slightly different wavelength at the time. But to be fair, he had actually the group had actually provided, you know, one of the first opportunities for me, even though I had no personal contact there because they were in Wellington base. Uh, and I was in Hastings and a lot of their membership were spread across the country. Um, they had an ability to, and he seemed to foster an ability for people Then, like Professor MA whole range of those people involved [00:28:30] in that grouping to, uh, gather a quite a good consensus among very prominent and knowledgeable people. Uh, and and I certainly had admired that and his ability and skill to network and keep those people together so they could pop up around the country and and and make reinforcing comments. Uh, you know, when derogatory remarks or inaccurate remarks were being made? Um, towards the end, as I said, though, the there were considerable tensions because when it came [00:29:00] to, uh, equality issues, um, we were really quite starkly opposed there. And, uh, as I said, my belief that the, um, politics is the art of the impossible is far far has always been more attractive. So we have the wolf inquiry in the report. And in 1969 we've got Stonewall in the United States in June, What impact did Stonewall have? I guess, on you. [00:29:30] But also on on New Zealand, Um, I, I suspect originally very little effect. I mean, it was a news item, and these drag queens had rioted. But a drag queen rioting is quite an alien concept at that time. To, you know, to a lot of, uh, being homosexual men, um, the the you know, drag was a very long and and and, uh, colourful and and fine tradition of [00:30:00] the the sort of group. And so you were aware of drag and people in drag, and that was, uh, I suppose, a major part of the entertainment side of the, um of the group for some time. It also, interestingly, brought in a number in the sort of transgender area as well. From Carmen and those people who were working in that sort of area very often, uh, in prostitution, but not always. And, uh, she certainly acted as a sort of beacon [00:30:30] in that area as well, because being transsexual herself. So, um, when it sort of exploded it, it did. So obviously over there, Uh, but not as much. Here, Um, it was just a little bit after that. I think that where it really, uh, where it did explode for New Zealand. And that was when, uh, as she was known then, um, now, uh, her name has [00:31:00] been changed. Or is, um, had applied for a scholarship to, um, to an American university institute. A very, very, very intelligent woman and, um uh, and still politically very prominent, um, and had been turned down by the immigration department because she'd made it perfectly clear she was a lesbian and And, um, that was it. Um, so in the turning down of that, it certainly ignited. Um, [00:31:30] I suppose, uh, you know, this is enough. We've had enough. Uh, it it it lits. What I felt was a feeling of, uh, incredible frustration. You know, uh, the candles of frustration throughout the country. I think they probably might have been more likely to be blow torches. Really? But anyway, uh, they were absolutely, um, uh, incensed by this she was, And Auckland University had a big campus meeting where, you know, this was discussed, and the support for her was discussed. [00:32:00] Uh, and out of that was developed to Auckland. Gay liberation. Um, uh, I can't easily give dates for those specifically, but that was seem to be the sequence. She then, um, actually visited in in March. The of that sort of 72 the Canterbury campus. Uh, at that time, I was the, uh, student vice president, the men's vice president. And, um [00:32:30] uh, it was from that meeting that whilst the initial disgust and and opposition to the American, you know, decision was made, uh, a group of us sort of hovered behind, I suppose to say, Look, you know, OK, this is important, and we'll deal with this, but we've got a hell of a lot of things here to do in in New Zealand. And maybe this is going to afford the opportunity to bring, you know, more people in a more politically like minded way together. And I think, [00:33:00] uh, that's effectively what happened in terms of developing into the 70 you know, two and our establishment of gay liberation Christchurch as it was, uh, we came there, and then Wellington came from there, but always remembering I'd arrived in 66. Uh, so I was sort of towards the end of my academic career, and I had, um uh uh by the end, over four years, it took I majored in sociology [00:33:30] and English, Um, and so most likely, I was destined towards education or teaching. Although my parents wanted me to be a lawyer, but, um, teaching was the one most likely to capture it. But before then, up until, um, certainly up until Nau's explosion onto the scene. Um, there were a number of, um, of incidents that occurred in Christchurch itself as well. Uh um, a, uh an [00:34:00] Italian drag queen had been, um, deported back to Sicily at one stage. Always referred to him as mother, uh, and then again, with these increasing and just quietly fermenting sort of feelings of frustration and, uh, and and increasing amount of anger about what was actually happening because homosexual law reform sort of stood there and was part of the debate about the age. But it was, [00:34:30] you know, in terms of, you know, drag queens, and, um and and, uh, even the comments. I remember a commissioner in Christchurch saying that they refused to have the, um, the city overrun by lots of pon pussyfoots and perverts. It was a wonderful here, um, headline in the in the Christchurch Press. And that wasn't an uncommon feeling. Uh, and as I say, the fact that it came from the, you know, the the the the chief guy in [00:35:00] Christchurch suggested that, uh um, those sort of attitudes, those conservative attitudes were pretty strongly still there. So it had again very much like Hastings that had on the one hand, you know, that sort of public scene, uh, public places cruising. Um, but on the other side, it had lots of um, social, much more extensive social networks And also, interestingly, something that had happened in Auckland and [00:35:30] Wellington, too. And that was the development of the Dorian Societies. And they were the sort of early what were beautifully named gentlemen's clubs. Um, and they were not remotely or specifically identified, of course, as being same sex or or anything to do with homosexuality. But they were all men's clubs. And, of course, they they also provided a sort of social semi commercial function a little bit like, I suppose, working men's clubs these days. Although I don't want to make quite [00:36:00] the same comparisons there. Um, but there was that that ability to, um as it were, use those sorts of groups around. And as we moved around socially, a number of them were university students. Uh, you know, Lindsey Taylor, Uh, Ray Farley. A number of us together. And what we did, of course, is we got to know each other better. It became quite a good skeleton lying there for when, uh, who is sort of, um, you know, more, [00:36:30] uh, climactic sort of burst came through. And so there was almost a sort of an organisation waiting to actually happen there. It wasn't just sort of cobbled together in a few weeks or a few months, there had been a long, steady build up of what was going on in the, you know, and certainly in Canterbury that I can talk about more specifically. And when she was told she couldn't go to the U SI mean she wasn't told in a kind of polite way, was she? Well, can you recall the words that they used to? [00:37:00] No, I can't. But, um um, it's It's Americans have always been It seems, Rather said the the term at the moment that they've been or they've been using up until very recently on their immigration data was that you were guilty of moral turpitude. I don't know whether most people going into America would even understand what the term moral turpitude meant. But in those days, of course, any sexual depravity, uh, any sexual deviance, which is [00:37:30] probably the best word that they would use, uh was prohibited. And until very recently, um, it's only was with the advent of the sort of AIDS crisis and where people had to sort of say, Well, yes, I'm coming to an AIDS conference. And yes, I am, actually, by the way, I am homosexual. I am gay. Um, that finally, for lots of the conferences, who had to say, Well, how can we come to have conferences in America if if people not going to be let through, you know, immigration. And so it was very much later on that America [00:38:00] actually started to come to terms with those immigration things. And, of course, they thought this would be spread, you know, by invasions of people coming from other countries with HIV and passing it on to their locals. Um, another thing, which, of course, is un unproven and largely untrue. I'm sure it happens occasionally, but there was nothing of the epidemic that they were considering it to be. So those sort of frustrated build up, uh, hovering there was, uh um was [00:38:30] not made, uh, uh, less explosive by talking about lesbians and social deviants and so on. Uh, for many of us, when not only got to the equality provisions in our heads, but also, you know, and much of our activities in our daily lives one of the really interesting things that is happening nowadays in New Zealand is. We've got the marriage Equality Amendment Bill going through Parliament at the moment when you go to marches or, um, protests for [00:39:00] this, there is very much a lot of young energy there. And I'm wondering, was that the same back in the early seventies, where, like like you and Lindsay formed the, um, Students Association, activist society, the gay activist society? I mean, was that where the energy was coming from? Very, very much so in a younger group. Um, but, uh, we also need to be careful not to remember that as younger people, we are probably less nervous about [00:39:30] being public. So there were still quite a group of older people there who had worked in various capacities in various ways. Uh, sometimes members of the homosexual law reform sometimes not, uh, who were extremely helpful, uh, dedicated. Whatever. But they also may have been married. Uh, or they might be high up in their church or in a high position in there. So very often they had, uh what shall I say or felt? They had a social stake [00:40:00] that could be more seriously jeopardised if they publicly did something and so very often as those of us who are younger. Uh, we're not so quite so worried about those, you know, the sort of polite trappings of, of, of a correct society. And so we were more able to do it. And therefore, I suspect lots of our records and things come through as seeing us doing more things. But I certainly think we need just to be careful to remember that there were a lot of those people there. Same with the women. They're not [00:40:30] often often mentioned. And later on, when they mentioned the gay rights Coalition, uh, you know, it was actually headed by a woman at the start, very often reasons I'd mentioned earlier about worrying that they were going to be criminalised as well. They very often worked in quietly in the background, doing amazing work and being out there on the demonstrations and so on, but just nervous that they, too, may well jeopardise their position if they were too vocal. But by and large, the energy came from [00:41:00] younger people, and more specifically, I suppose, students. And what were you thinking about in terms of, you know, kind of what kind of events and stuff did you organise What? What What was the organisation there for? Um, I think initially it was a a way of, uh, gathering networks or or a network of people together. So in its very early times, it became primarily [00:41:30] a support network where people could contact it and be involved without, um, you know, without feeling threatened, uh, without feeling that they even had to disclose themselves publicly for it. There was a misconception that if you were involved in gay liberation now, everyone knew that wasn't in fact, true at all. But what had very often happened, uh, in in gay communities was that the social functions were very often very closely [00:42:00] involved with the sexual side of it as well in the party and and so on. And that was great. There was no problem with that, but very often, if you contacted yourself into these groups, there was also a very strong expectation that you, too, would also be involved in, you know, in the partying and the and the sexual activity and so on. And for many of us, and I sort of included myself, but it certainly included a lot of other people. Uh, who felt that that shouldn't really be a precondition [00:42:30] for being involved in having contact. And so we were approached into the early liberation days as we were setting up by people who were totally isolated and totally shut off. And, uh, therefore, it sort of gave an opportunity on that side to get, um, support into the community. The second side, The other side, though, was definitely the political. And that was, I suppose, in those days, uh, much [00:43:00] more. What shall I say? Tamed down than it became. Later, it became critical to have an awareness and an acceptance of sexual reality as such, um, simply getting rid of the silence, I think was the primary objective. And to say, Look, we're here where queer is one of the statements would say we're here, We're queer. Get over it. You know, and and sorry, we're not actually now going away. And so [00:43:30] that because, of course later became tremendously challenging in a lot more ways, particularly to the politicians. And some interesting things have developed from there. But out of that was, um, yeah, just the sort of two arms. Basically, I suppose the welfare, social support and on the other side was the beginnings, the glimmerings of, um, getting rid of the veil of silence and secrecy and actually starting to work towards the two primary [00:44:00] functions. And that was the equality and and acceptance. The Gay Liberation Front started in Christchurch in 72. Was that the first that came after the Auckland one, And then Wellington followed after that. Well, why do you think it was important to have these as regional organisations rather than like a national thing at that stage? Because, um, there was a very, very, uh what should we say? [00:44:30] Um, determined sort of regional feeling. I think in places, um, by nature of the the the the cities, they were sort of slightly different in their focus, and and Auckland was seen as a much big brighter, you know, positive. Uh, a big city. More like Sydney. Uh, whereas Christchurch was, like a lot more conservative city underneath, I would say very radical and quite, you know, uh, contentious things. But by and large, its population was very [00:45:00] well, Church of England, I suppose, Um, originally a church city, a settlement and very much remaining in that, whereas, of course, Wellington is was much more of the political centre in capital, so they were very often, I think, developing different ways for different needs. But, um, in each of them they tended to to develop a little differently. And it's been interesting over the time because I've always had felt that [00:45:30] Auckland was actually much less political, um, than, um than it thought it was or wanted to be, um, and it it was much more involved in setting up the sort of social groups and social situations than it was in the hard political. They were still there and still doing it, but not to the same. Whereas I've always felt uh, maybe a little bit, unfortunately, that Canterbury was a lot more sort of political lynch increasingly towards [00:46:00] the political, Uh, and Wellington eventually did the same thing. It, uh, it moved very strongly towards the sort of I suppose representations and, uh um and work with sort of parliamentary CIR, uh, circles. And very often it did work a little more closely with the New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society and other organisations, uh, gay radio and other things as well, so it often acted. I think a lot more as an umbrella and did things quite effectively [00:46:30] with it. Was it not just automatically Ari criticism, but just that Each seemed to focus a little bit more. And I think there was a feeling of, you know, we know what we're doing here. We don't need someone to come up from the South Island to tell Auckland is what to do. I think feelings are probably still very much ingrained in the national psyche. And likewise, Auckland is going to Wellington or anyone anywhere else. So it was a A slightly and unfortunately, I think, And as I said later, um, a [00:47:00] sort of somewhat jealous parochialism at worst. Um, but a good network developer on its better side, Could the gay liberation front, uh, advertise for members, Could it? I mean, was it available? Were you able to advertise in newspapers and on radio and stuff? Um, sadly not. And that that was one of the the major, you know, I suppose rallying points for many [00:47:30] of the groups. Um, even the word homosexual was looked on with considerable, um, horror by, uh, the newspaper and media. And in fact, in the earlier stages, the word gay was always seen in a very derogatory manner. In fact, a press up until some years ago sort of refused to use the term gay at all and would only, uh, only mention, um, you know, homosexuals as [00:48:00] such, uh, despite the feelings of an adequacy of of the term and there were and still are raging debates over the term gay or queer or other. You know, other names, I suppose. Um, but the initial worries with the liberation groups that the homosexual as such was a very sort of limiting sort of almost biological term, Uh, and that we were talking about a diverse range of sexualities and, you know, in keeping [00:48:30] with Kinsey and all the other reports that had said, you know, there's a whole range of sexual, uh, identities and and and behaviours within the group, um, that, uh, with that sort of range, uh, we simply couldn't put one limited focus, which might be on the five or 10 or 15% who were exclusively, uh, same sex oriented. And so, um, very big debates have developed over that, and I think that's that continues today. The term [00:49:00] queer, of course, is coming in now. Um, and in those days, it was a a term that men recoil from, you know, particularly gay men recoil from II. I feel quite comfortable with it. Uh, and that's only because I see it as not as easily identifying any specific or particular GE, you know, gender or or same sex. Um uh, behaviour. Even gay, to an extent, is very much, um, you know, identified with men. [00:49:30] Uh, whereas queer is much more comfortable and that why is it But I I have friends and older friends who just absolutely are horrified by the use of that term. Because, of course, originally, it was one of those, like, faggot and and and and some others like that who were just seen as being the most offensive things that you could say about a AAA homosexual man. So you couldn't actually kind of advertise in newspapers or anything like that. Correct. Uh, and or you had to have permission, uh, to do it. And we pushed [00:50:00] pretty hard. For example, the personal columns were the ones with the were the most difficult. Um, that was the column that we were most encouraged to use, but It tended to be a much more sort of open, you know, column than it was for talking about, uh, you know, social for lesbians and gays. And very often, uh, on several occasions we had media people in the advertising side and editorial side saying that, you know, this was encouraging [00:50:30] things that were potentially illegal in New Zealand. So we had a whole range of things. Uh, and of course, you know, Children might read it there. You know, just a plethora of arguments as to why this shouldn't happen. Um, but it's been it had been a slow, sort of breaking down process. Uh, and it was becoming increasingly difficult with the newsworthy items to, um, What's the word to sort of Shrug away the fact [00:51:00] that this these terms were inappropriate or or of no advantage. One of the things that was interesting, though, is that I also think it tended to drive people to much more. What should we say? Extreme ways of actually presenting information. Um, one of the early things that happened with, uh, in, uh, with Lindsay Taylor. Was he he painted did a paint up on the star building in in Christchurch, just as the group, um, it was being set up, [00:51:30] you know, just gay rights or something. I forget what it was, but he got caught. He was arrested. Um, and there was a huge, um, just it's the biggest one of the biggest sort of gay liberation movements. At that time, there were about 80 people attended the next meeting. Um, and they were, you know, generally mortified that, you know, he should have the cheek, the arrogance or whatever to go out and, you know, commit an act like this, um, in in public and one that sort of brought homosexuals [00:52:00] and inverted commas and and, you know, and under the the course of the law and be seen to be criminals, criminal behaviour was seen in terms of what they did to have it about the people involved was was another. And despite the fact that, you know, many of us argued that, you know, despite the the the I Suppose the paint ups across the collective minds of of gay men and women over centuries, where if you go, you know, John loves Sandra or, [00:52:30] you know, Mark loves Jill. Uh, everything from carved into bus stops, uh, to written on desks. There seemed to be no sort of appreciation that, um, you know, um, that perhaps it wasn't actually as serious as they felt and that simply, you know, damaging some property was nothing to the damage that men occasioned. You know, for men and young men and women over many centuries, uh, who've, by and large, committed suicide [00:53:00] or been killed, imprisoned or whatever. Um, they were still very much upset about this whole idea of bringing, uh, what do we say? Attention, I suppose, to them. And it also made it really hard for a lot of older, more socially oriented, Um uh, gay men because they felt that their comfortable social networks were now coming under some, you know, identification, some [00:53:30] sort of threat. And that, um that sort of disrupted this nice pattern of, you know, finding a new person and bringing them into the social scene and getting them integrated in that scene. And maybe, you know, with lovers and so on, and and and moving through older until you start holding your own parties with that sort of continuity about it, which was also echoed in the Dorian societies as well. And they, of course, couldn't deal with scandal or or any public things [00:54:00] because the wife might say, Well, this Dorian society, you know that you go to this gentleman's club. I understand. You know, that, uh, those deviant men go there. So there were sorts of questions and implications in it that, uh, many of them didn't want. So, uh, it seemed a shame that we had to publicise things very often, Um, by, uh, as it were focusing on negative things rather than you know what we considered the much less harmful things. Like the personal columns in the newspaper. [00:54:30] So just briefly looking at the Dorian Society that was never seen as, uh, an outwardly homosexual club. Absolutely not. No, uh, it was a gentleman's club that was all needed to be said it was a club for gentlemen. Uh, anything else? I mean, fairly, Obviously other things happened, but, uh, and that, of course, was a difficulty, too, in terms of potential police raids and so on. So they had to be extremely careful for that reason. The legal reason, but [00:55:00] certainly because a significant number of the members were, you know, either married or, as I say in prominent positions or whatever. And so this was, um, just sort of, I suppose, an oasis, a sort of sexual oasis for them to be able to to move to with the beginnings of the gay liberation front. How easy was it to get members involved then if if people didn't necessarily want to kind of rock the boat, how easy was it to get new people? Um, [00:55:30] it was difficult to to get, uh, people involved and those particularly who wanted to be publicly identified. There was no difficulty for those who were completely shut off and isolated or had been subjected to assaults or blackmail or whatever. Because their I suppose their mind space had been pushed to a point where, you know, many of them would say, Well, it couldn't have really got any worse. And there were only a few things you [00:56:00] could contemplate that would get rid of it. So this was at least a a better alternative to those. And, of course, then coming in and meeting those of of your own and talking about, uh, situations you had been in where you realise other people have been in those situations gave often the support and the continuity. Uh, that was really, really very, very valuable to them. But the act of aside was difficult, and it very often crept up on you. Um, I I was myself particularly nervous [00:56:30] because in those early years in the 72 um, I was sort of starting at university. My parents were aware, but they had always said, Look, you know, don't you know, don't let anyone know. Basically, uh, I never really answered that with either mum or Dad in the time except that I did say, if I ever appeared and was going to appear on television, I would ring them up and warn them so that Dad wouldn't spill his coffee while he was looking over the top of his newspaper at the television, [00:57:00] uh, to see me appearing there, which happened at, uh, you know, from time to time. But you were sort of almost cast into these things. So a lot of people you know, a lot of young would say, Oh, gee, that's so brave. And, you know, how did you do it? And you know all that abuse that you had to suffer that was partly true, and that was there. But I you know, I remember a small incident where Lindsay and I, we had to get a a post box for Gay Liberation Front Christchurch and I stood in the old United [00:57:30] Services Hotel there by what was the, uh, the post office area? One wet, cold, bloody rain sodden, um, Christchurch night while we debated who was going to go in and actually ask to identify a gay liberation front Christchurch box. And we had a hell of a time. And finally, you know, Lindsay threw his hands in the air and said, Look, I'll go, I'll do it. So off he stormed me, Feeling greatly relieved. And that was just talking to, you know, just a person over the other side of the counter. [00:58:00] Uh, he went in and got it sorted, came back, had the key, everything sorted. Great. I was so admiring of him for having actually done that. And it wasn't till about 10 or 12 years later when I became a secretary of the Gay Liberation for a short period and took the key. I got the bill one day and it was actually addressed to Mr Lindsay Taylor of box 17 17. So just the fear of actually disclosing yourself, even to those of us who were, you know, reasonably comfortable and reasonably [00:58:30] out was was something of a daunting feature. And I think, um, those sort of striding to the the forefront, waving placards and batons and so on, and that really militant thing is not really quite the picture It tended to be a lot of people pushing vigorously behind. And in the end, yes, you did put your hand up because you thought, Well, look, what we've had in the past can't be the future can't be worse. So So let's go to it. And very often that's how it how it came by [00:59:00] and the degree of action as a sort of final comment. I suppose in your activity involvement very much depended on to the extent that you'd either been disadvantaged or pushed or, you know, received something negative in your past or was really isolated. So the worse off you'd been before you came into the group very often did mirror something of the degree of intensity on the other side. When you actually came up and did the protesting or or, [00:59:30] uh, advocate work. Soon after the Stonewall in the US, they started having the pride marches and having pride events. When did that kind of visible show of pride start happening in New Zealand? Um, I think much of that started in the sort of mid to late seventies. Um, it's really interesting because, you know, lots of parallels are made between America and [01:00:00] what happened there. And yet, personally, I, um um I don't think it was actually as close as all that we tended to, you know, Apart from the initial sort of explosions and and the establishment of the groups, the, uh, gay liberation groups, as I understood them in New Zealand, did not, um, you know, greatly lean upon the American, you know, the American models. Um and of course, over there they were a lot more out a lot more [01:00:30] strident because they had much longer histories, too, in places of, uh, you know, where they've sort of gathered. And San Francisco and and and in New York itself, um, they had much longer histories of having developed those networks and groups and other organisations. Some of their, you know, their gay organisations and lesbian organisations have been established 50 or 60 years Um uh prior to the establishment of the gay liberation group after stonewall [01:01:00] And so, um, we didn't seem to have as as as much of that, but I think there was an increasing, I suppose anger and um a preparedness to set up some national conferences which started in 72. 73. And it was the national gay liberation conferences that brought, uh, a lot of, uh uh you know, a lot more people and active people together. Uh, coupled with that, uh, Australia also [01:01:30] became quite an infant. They had annual conferences, too, and I certainly and a number of others would regularly go over to theirs in Sydney or Melbourne, most commonly Sydney or Melbourne. I think there was one in Brisbane, uh, at one stage. But, uh, they would also have some of their, uh, activists coming across to here. So if there was influence in terms of what was happening in the development of social services and those things, I think probably we had more rub off in [01:02:00] the Australian context that we had here and in many instances we just simply forged ahead and did it. You know, getting a telephone was a bit tricky at the beginning, Certainly the advertising of a telephone number, uh, for what was scaling in Christchurch, um, and befriend and those sorts of cell groups that were starting. But, um, once they were established, and then then the resistance to using the term gay became, you know, Dr dramatically decreased. [01:02:30] See, it seems from you know, my perspective here in 2013, the fact of actually just getting a phone. It seems such a kind of simple thing, but absolutely bizarre that it should be like that. And, uh, you know, just the simplest things you could not take for granted. Um, you know, just, uh and in fact, most things through, even things like visits to schools. You just assume that, you know, in the liberal studies programmes or what? That would be fine. And yet, through [01:03:00] the country, there were often huge battles of schools not wishing to have, you know, these people anywhere near schools, Uh, and still happening today. I mean, it it it hasn't changed. There are a lot of good things that have changed, and people say Oh, you know, it's great. All these changes and things are better now. And you can have civil unions and, um, looking towards marriages as well. And yet when you say to them, well, you know, try walking down Lampton qua holding hands, uh, in the same sex [01:03:30] situation or a few of you and just see what the reaction is. And and at times, certainly the youngsters is not good at all. And, you know, we have youngsters not only committing suicide, of course, but, um, you know, uh, being seriously assaulted and and killed in in Wellington, Um, a number of, uh, occasions that suggest that it's not as good as that. So, yeah, in those days, getting a phone and a phone number was almost feeling a little bit like World War three. But what it did do is I think those little [01:04:00] things actually illustrated to people about how little one actually had and in particular how little, um, not power, but little influence and I. I would often think in terms of what Jack Goodman and the Law Reform group were doing of saying, Well, if we can't get a phone, you know, getting the legislative change. Great. And maybe that's the pincer movement that's getting the legislative change and working back down to attitudes or working [01:04:30] from attitudes and up to the legislative. Uh, it seemed like a huge distance between them. What was the relationship between, like the Law Reform Society and the Gay Liberation Front? Uh, it was very, um Well, it varied. Uh, and I think in the regional areas, it was probably a little tense and there wasn't a lot of contact. There was no regional organisations of the law reform because of the design. They wanted it based in Wellington. Uh, notable people and [01:05:00] so on. Uh, so it was gay Liberation Wellington that had the the the most contact. And it was obviously, you know, a a little tense because whilst, um um, homosexual law reform, uh, wanted, you know, effectively that reform gay liberation had always started and continued and said that it was bottom line was equality, and that was clearly at some stage, I mean, all of us, you know, when [01:05:30] we we talked about it, realised that eventually the writing was on the wall and that there was going to be a very clear difference when it got to a legislative battle, as it as it later did. Um and so, um so yes, Uh, what should we say? A reserved cooperation. You know, they're a bit reserved, a bit just careful with each other, but they would help and assist and support, and particularly in a lot of areas, like welfare and things where it didn't need any political, necessarily any political position [01:06:00] to be in to to, uh, to to cooperate or assist with another organisation. Because, of course, there were more than just the, uh, the just the homosexual law reform group. At that time, a number of groups were starting, you know, in radio and and other areas as well. So, um, Wellington was the focus for that. Can you give me an idea of the size of the kind of gay liberation front in Christchurch at that time? Uh, in in the seventies, at the beginning, I remember [01:06:30] the first few years we would roughly have about, uh, probably about 40 to 50. Um, you know, paper members of actual meetings or 10. 15 people, sometimes bigger. If a big issue came up, then there would be more. There But most commonly, they weren't big meetings. They were generally more activist meetings. Um, and the groups like, uh, you know, the welfare groups associated, [01:07:00] uh, very often didn't have such meetings. They simply had a welfare programme or a telephone contact. And so that work was done when many of us went out, say to to to do training in terms of telephone stuff and telephone counselling and support work. Uh, in those very early days, uh, there was plenty to learn and people to get involved. So, yes, it was, um um it was sort of difficult. It also illustrated rather strangely that, [01:07:30] um, you basically had to learn everything from scratch. Um, and like all the techniques from, you know, typing your own newsletters, I type the first gay liberation newsletter on the, uh, University of Canterbury Students Association's typewriter and the first copy of And so you begged, borrowed and sometimes stole to to get stuff and equipment through. And that was, uh that was also a part. I suppose [01:08:00] of that earlier challenge. You you mentioned going to some of the national conferences. Can you describe for me what it was like the first time you went to a gay lesbian Transgender national conference? Yeah, uh, overpowering, just totally overpowering. And it always lead me sort of a bit teary. Um, you know, remembering back to those feelings, because I'm sure you know those feelings for a lot of young, um, queer women and and men [01:08:30] still exist of going to, um I suppose it's going to somewhere where you realise that it's actually all be a lie right through a very carefully and cunningly engineered lie that homosexuals were horrible and nasty and, you know, and and basically, you know, you wouldn't certainly wouldn't want your son to marry one, and, um, that the the least you had to do with them, the better that they were subversive, that they were going to bring down civilization. All [01:09:00] those all those tired old things we hear and still do. Um, and even in the recent debates, you still you know, you still hear them. And I, um, I remember that, um uh, as I came out, flew out of, uh of London in the early nineties, and they were debating the age of consent, dropping from 18 to 16, and I was reading through this and I thought, like, we've had nearly 10, 15 years of this change and absolutely nothing of [01:09:30] all the claimed abuses. You know, that plane loads of, you know, homosexuals from America were going to be brought in to interfere with our young people on the streets. All those sorts of absurd claims, nothing had happened. And so going to say, like a conference on that where all of a sudden it just knocks away systematically, a whole series of almost sort of, well, popular beliefs. I suppose, um, is just, uh, totally [01:10:00] overpowering and incredibly uplifting. It also became apparent. You know, the first one is, I suppose, stunned. What would I say? Stunned excitement. Strange words to put together. But, um, by the time we went in 73 I think it was to our first Sydney one, which, of course, had about 100 100 and 50 people. Uh, it was just mind blowing because, um, not only were these people there, there obviously wasn't one or [01:10:30] two in the world. Uh, and, um, sort of brought a memory of, uh uh when the National Gay Rights Coalition was putting out advertisements. Uh, we put in a national advertisement. And one of the letters that came back came from the where a guy said he had. He was had been living there 40 years because he believed he was the only one in the world of this sort and that therefore, the best thing he can do is isolate himself away and the U. And I thought, that's so extreme and almost at a point of not being able to believe it, but [01:11:00] understanding that it probably is. So when you come out and you see hundreds of people there not only gathered for a particular purpose but just, you know, enjoying themselves, laughing, doing all those things that humans do. Uh, it really is, uh, joyfully overwhelming. It was great. And it gave me a huge amount of the What shall I say? The personal energy, uh, that brought me to decide. Uh, I will fight, you know, for the rest of my life to make sure these things [01:11:30] don't happen and that we get a just and decent society. There's fighting in a whole different variety of ways, isn't there? Like I mean, there's fighting in terms of political things, and then actually kind of street actions, but also, you were quite involved in the kind of social and support side of things in Christchurch. Can you tell me about some of the groups that that you worked with and formed? Um, yes, Uh, we very often, Um, at the very beginning, we had a group, which was, like, a sort of befriend [01:12:00] a gay friend group where we, uh And it stemmed very often from the phone. Um, uh, you know, from the phone contact with people as we made our way through and and got some sort of recognition, it wasn't always done in newspapers, you know, there were other, you know, uh, church, magazines and all sorts of other supportive groups were able to publicise numbers and and and get the message out so that people were getting in touch with us. Um, and very often it was It was sometimes difficult [01:12:30] because it had never happened before. So being able to ring in and talk to someone about a situation like this apart from often being incredibly time intensive, you know, when somebody's telling you their life story and it's, you know, lurches from trauma to trauma is incredibly exhausting and and also extremely difficult because many, uh, men and women were sort of locked into very much that really self oppressed thing of, you know, clearly I'm horrible, and I'm awful. And, you know, [01:13:00] um, maybe the best thing is that I taught myself and, you know, disappear, and it would make the world a better and easier place. And so it was really hard, because to move people from that, you know, does take quite a lot. Um, and so they tended to link into, like, sort of small social groups and cells where, you know, people came along and basically talked about their lives and in group sessions. And, uh, uh was in, you know, incredibly supportive for them. There was another group, though, of course. [01:13:30] Pretty, obviously that saw Maybe this was a you know, like a sort of dating agency. And very often, uh, into the, um what into the eighties nineties? Uh, men were most often men. Men were ringing really to sort of make sexual contacts and arrangements with people. And that was quite challenging because, you know, you can understand it when you knew what was happening, but it was really difficult and I. I know myself. I reduced my sort of telephone [01:14:00] counselling, telephone support work after sort of 20 years or so. It would be in the nineties, because at that stage we were then starting to get a lot of just simply older guys who were married or in different circumstances. That meant they couldn't make the social or, you know, contact. And therefore they wanted the bit on the side, as it were, which was pretty distressing. I mean, not only for them and for us, but also obviously, for the person who was the bit on the side. So those groups, [01:14:30] uh, once they came through the contact on the phone, um, most commonly went over into, uh, you know, a befriending group or a social club. And then, as they felt comfortable, they might come on into, you know, the bigger group, the Liberation group meetings were usually monthly, uh, usually at a person's house. And they were the ones that, um, you know, sort of, I suppose, power with the powerhouse for the for the organisation. Um, the second area, though, which was [01:15:00] another big area apart from just that personal social side was of course, I became more involved, in fact, very early from the the gay teachers union, which was set up in the, uh, in the mid seventies, um, as a way of trying to gather particular groups of people together. Um, and I realised when I went into teaching, it wasn't going to be easy. And it wasn't at times, um although I've never regretted that. But, um, the the sort of idea of, you know, the sort of basically [01:15:30] men, particularly gay men, are sort of, you know, walking predators Or, you know, predators basically on wheels and child molesters was pretty strong in the culture and still very often is, um And so despite the fact that, you know, we know that that's sort of rubbish. Um, it's very much there. And so developing protective groups through my involvement at the time, of course, was with the University of Canterbury Students Association when I was president and uh, sort [01:16:00] of vice presidents over about three years in the seventies when we set up the other group, uh, and following on into the Post-primary Teachers Association and, uh, these years through to the presidency over the last two or three years, Uh, been times when developing those sort of support groups within teaching, but also moving out and looking more directly at those big issues like homophobia and, uh, in schools where everyone is to an extent responsible and staff can do as much as students things [01:16:30] to be helpful. Um, has been just one of those developments from initially personal support through to a much wider. I suppose we'd call it community support, or at least a recognition that there are problems and that if we all try, we can all do something about it and make a lot of people's lives a dam site better and more profitable for them. Establishing a group, um, of of gay teachers in in the mid seventies. And again this is when it's still [01:17:00] illegal in New Zealand. Um, did that open you up to any kind of, um, discrimination or, I mean, it seems quite a a very brave thing to be doing. Yes, Um, it's it's it's interesting because you you're quite right. There was the potential for, um, I mean for criminal behaviour where you are convicted in a court. And of course, that happens. The consequences in teaching are are pretty obvious. Uh, but there are other provisions that were there in the education sector [01:17:30] which said that, you know, being a fit and proper person, um, to to appear before young people and appropriate was another one. And it didn't very easily define what that meant either. You know what? What did you have to be guilty of doing to prove that you are not a fit and proper person? Uh, and of course, any suggestions of inappropriate activity, whether it's just with other people, not just students, but, um meant that, um, you know, [01:18:00] dereg administration was highly likely that you would not just, you know, pay the price in terms of any potential legal action or loss, but you'd certainly pay the price in terms of your job. And it was one of the things that always acted as a very great fear. Uh, for me, uh, being sort of out. As things came out, it came out very, very slowly. And so there's an interesting period in my life from when I went teaching, which was in 75 which was a secondary [01:18:30] school. I had a training year in 74 and I was still a vice president of the, um, students Association, that when I went out into a into the school for 70 Yeah, 75 76 and part of 77. Um, I was actually lay reasonably quiet. I decided as a course of action that I didn't really want to provoke anything at this stage being a beginning teacher and because I needed, [01:19:00] uh, two years of teaching to become registered, and if anything happened in there, it could make things a lot more difficult. So 75 and 76 were really quite critical in their own way, though they brought up a huge frustration which came out in terms of the coalition I mentioned in a minute. But, um, it left me, you know, feeling. I wanted to do things and get on with things, But I had to be careful how I did it, and I went about it. So there was that [01:19:30] and, um, people at my school, my work and that were aware they they knew the situation. And, of course, I've been out for some some years anyway. And when I arrived there in 75 you know, I was in my mid twenties. So, um, they were aware and also partnered or just coming to the end of a a sort of seven year relationship there with the guy. So most people were aware that was not hidden. It was, you know, anyone could see that had eyes as we accompanied each other to things, um, and even to, [01:20:00] you know, some quite big things. I remember 73. I went down to Impulse 73 which was a huge gathering of about 7000, uh, teenagers in Dunedin run by a minister there in the town, the town hall, where I think I was probably maybe one of the first people to actually stand in front of them and spend 20 minutes telling them what it was like to be gay. Uh, one of the most terrifying, uh, in that time, one of the most terrifying things that I've actually done. Um, [01:20:30] but a huge response. And we then you had to go down into a little foyer area where there would be a second forum. And of course, we found I found significant numbers of, you know, obviously gay men coming down there. Uh, more difficult, because, of course, It's a younger group. That was up to about 20 age from about 14 to 20. Um, but those sorts of things also became dangerous in the job area because whilst you know, I let people know and newspapers, [01:21:00] uh, recorded it and made comment. Uh, I just simply said to myself, I don't want anything to be challenging in these couple of years. And so I I stood back a little, including some of the one of the, you know, the law law campaigns. Um, but, uh, you know, if I was required to speak, say something. No problem. But I just was careful and also warned, Used to warn mum and Dad a little bit more frequently at that time that I might be appearing on the television. Um, [01:21:30] so the personal side, in terms of challenge and things students were generally very, very good in those years. Uh, even though many were obviously aware it was really a sort of don't ask, don't tell sort of policy. Now I think about it. Um, the people said something. Well, yeah, OK, I'd say something, but unless, uh, you know, it was actually asked or it came into the conversation. Somehow I would simply say nothing. And so the cloak of silence was used, uh, somewhat [01:22:00] ashamedly, um, at that sort of period, too. So and I had no major incidents. Later, as I became more visible, I became more of a target for the what should we say? Untrue accusations. And they became a lot harder to deal with. But, uh, I was a little bit more prepared by then. Just take me back a wee bit and talk about, um, speaking at the impulse. Uh, yeah, And tell me, um, you know what? Describe to me what you actually [01:22:30] said and and and how it was received. It's interesting. You say that because a lot of times, the things I can't actually remember what I said. But that one, I thought, um, I mean, the first thing you do when you're going to speak to is what's the audience and what's the purpose and what you're doing? It was being televised. TV One was doing the whole thing. And so there were a whole series of group NATO was being had a spokesperson there. Women's liberation, uh, had a 15 minute slot. You basically had a 15 minute slot in the main auditorium on the stage was surrounded by bands [01:23:00] and things, and then they'd have another slot and then another slot, and this ran from about 10 in the morning till about eight at night. Um, and it was complicated. But for me, because my partner Neville at the time, um, we were both going down to this and they said, Yeah, that was fine. It's, um I think it was a Presbyterian or Anglican Church type Youth festival Guy Stevens down there who was magnificent and had run these as an ongoing series over some years, [01:23:30] Um, and never had to come off his motorbike because he was going to get his clothes for the weekend. And so he broke his leg. So he had all these traumas of me getting down there to it. So I was feeling pretty pretty fragile by the time I got there. And I thought, you know, the thing is I can't do is burst into tears of the television and the stage, So I thought, Well, you know, what do I do? I've got you know, this 3, 3. 5 1000 teenagers. And so I thought Well, all I'll do is I'll hit the I'll play [01:24:00] them. You know what? What? How would you feel if, um and, um and so it's I started by just I remember because I actually wore these incredibly flared pants at the time, which is probably not a little bit too much like the part. Really. Um, but, um, the centre stage thing was based on, uh, and my comment was, you know, uh, how would it feel? Was the question I posed to them. And, of course, they knew [01:24:30] what it was about, but they didn't know anything else. My name was there, and the fact that I was a canter students president, um, those things were known to them in the sort of, I suppose, pre meeting pre forum stuff. Um, but the place just went deeply silent. It was just like I could literally have heard pins drop, and I thought, Oh, dear. And so, um, I then just sort of paralleled it around and said, if you, um you know, how would you feel if to a series of things [01:25:00] from, uh, you know, intensely affectionate to someone, Uh, and you wanted to take them to the dance, your senior dance. Uh, if you're heterosexual, you'd go, Uh, if you're homosexual and your partner was the same sex, how would you feel? And so I went through about five or six of them, and it was just a deadly sign. It was just astounding and then just went on to talk a little bit about These are the sorts of feelings. [01:25:30] So I took it at an entirely personal level, um, to try and just I thought the only way you can do it is there's no you standing up and saying, Look, there are 10% of the population and Kinsey said this. And you know, these are just not the youngsters. They they've got to either have a gut reaction, a feeling or a scar. It's all over. You know, they'll say, Oh, it was a nice speaker or it was a bloody horrible or whatever else. Um, and that would be the feeling. And so the report later, as I say, it was 15 minutes. It's not very long when you're actually standing up there. [01:26:00] Um, but I found it overwhelmingly satisfying. At the end. A lot of people came up and said Oh, it was great. And it was nice to hear and so on. And these were just generally supporting people because they said we and I said to them, You know what? You know what sort of work did it, and they said I was just being actually challenged to think about it and say in your life, if you're in this position, uh, how you would actually feel And that's a pretty, you know, traditional type of approach for speaking and speakers and all sorts of situations. So there's nothing particularly unique [01:26:30] about it. But in that one, you know, constantly, people would say, Oh, you know, I never actually thought what it would be like if I felt really strongly to someone of my own sex because I've never felt like that. And then all of a sudden, there were a whole range of things I couldn't do because of it. You know that I find it frustrating and I get pissed off and all the other things that go with it. And so I felt that that sort of, you know, did actually help it. And then a number turned up later, and they actually eventually set to set up a, um [01:27:00] um, gay equality. So, society, which was the first Dunedin group that they sort of got going there. And so that, uh, worked quite, uh, quite well for some years. One of the other groups that that was formed in the mid seventies was, um, the campaign for homosexual equality. How did that differ from something like gay Liberation Front? Yeah. Uh, that was interesting. There was had always been a a suggestion that gay liberation was [01:27:30] basically two or three people, uh, with 25 groups and one post box. So, in other words, there was like, um uh, a lot of covering, uh, you know of, uh, doubling up. And so you know, you can, as you've already outlined of some of the groups that I was involved in, they were all sort of running at the same time. And so you put one hit on and go to one, and you put another hat on and go to another. Um, there was increasing awareness that the change legislatively, [01:28:00] whatever it was, I mean, I think people were reasonably astute politic politically. They were aware that if a significant change had to come two things would help. One was a move in public opinion generally because, um, at that time, there was something like I think about I remember from a survey about 16% who supported an equality decriminalisation. So same consenting age across across [01:28:30] the border, across the group. Um, and so that was going to be one thing. And secondly, it needed to enlist much more of the support of people in the same way homosexual law reform was doing it with the big names. Now, that was fine. They they did. And they used it very well. Very effectively. You know, you hear a judge say this and a doctor say this and a prime Minister. Well, not perhaps the prime Minister, but you hear somebody else make a comment, and so you you're happy, uh, to hear it, and it adds [01:29:00] to the oh, well, that person must be right. They're wise and older and qualified and so on. Uh, we felt that it needed more of the sort of people who said Yeah, actually, it isn't fair, and I'd like to be involved. Uh, it it's turned itself, um, in later campaigns to hugs. That's the heterosexuals I'm afraid of gays during the other campaign, So it became a sort of No, I don't really identify as being gay, but, you know, I'm thoroughly supportive of the changes. Uh, at the moment, too. There are a number of sort of, uh, you know, marriage [01:29:30] equality groups that have set up that are not identifiably gay activist groups, but are people who are just generally supportive of the principle. And sometimes they're in churches. Sometimes they're in, you know, and other issue groups and are happy to to support. And so with that, um, particularly, uh, Mike Waghorn, who was very involved in the group there down at the time, Lindsay, myself and a few others we just took, I suppose three or four of us out and [01:30:00] started to organise some of these Or try to, I suppose, you know, establish some of these other other smaller groups. Uh, the campaign for homosexual equality was the one because it meant that by just saying homosexual equality, it could bring other groups in, like the Anglican social service groups, a whole range of others. And so that one down there, uh, was designed and we worked on raising support among as I say, or getting these groups to join together and as a sort of ginger groups, [01:30:30] uh, to to be supportive. Um, the campaign for homosexual equality was probably the biggest in Christchurch. Uh, but others have developed on the other areas as well, and some of them linked up, But mostly they were still regionally based, which was quite interesting. And the other was, um um, the other side of it was that there were sort of harsher things to do. And, um, so the a group [01:31:00] that we also established at the time was, I suppose what you describe as a little dodgy today and that was hell, which was the homosexual electoral and legislative lobby. And, um, essentially, it was only 23 of us. It was, um I think it was Lindsay. Certainly Mike and myself. And, um, there are times when you really want to say it how it is, you know, and and [01:31:30] with the fury and the abuse and everything else behind it, And, um, we tended to concentrate on just simply sending letters to members of Parliament to say, you know, like, how dare you sit there? Sort of in your, you know, comfortable chairs and sit about unconcerned. Well, you know, young men and women are killing themselves, Um, which you wouldn't tend to say in a nice, respectable sort of letter. You just say, Well, you know, there are obviously serious social consequences from these policies, [01:32:00] and perhaps you might serve if you, you know, please would, you know, change it. And these were just rude, demanding, brash, um, disrespectful letters. And so that was set up because quite anonymously, it was known, was around. And it was advertised because it was doing a what shall we say, a nastier job than the other more moderate groups. And there was very much a feeling that if a movement socially was [01:32:30] to to do to improve and to establish itself, it had to move itself. Also, just not into the what will I call it, the extremist areas, as people saw it, but into the into the mainstream. And that's what those groups tended to try and do what we tried to do with them. Can you tell me a wee bit more about, um, both Lindsay Taylor and Mike Waghorn? Uh, yes. Um um Mike Waghorn Uh was was older in the University of Canterbury, where [01:33:00] he'd been doing it was Canterbury, or might have been Victoria. But anyway, he was doing a degree, and one of the things he'd come along to do was a survey in the early liberation days about sexuality and sexual politics and so on. Um and he stayed on he, um he Yeah, he just became fiercely, uh, supportive of things. Uh, to the point of being gay Liberation Secretary on numerous occasions later on, he was magnificent for me as the secretary [01:33:30] for the National Gay Rights Coalition. Um and, um, a fine, What should I say? Finely tuned political head, Um, and unrelentingly and unapologetically, um, sharp. You know, uh, and and in that sense, I know it caused sometimes problems with other members who really would like it to have been sort of Yes, sir. Thank you, sir. Please, sir, can we have some changes, sir? [01:34:00] Um, that the sort of brutality was really not very nice. And really, we should be nice when we're doing these things. And so, um, he throw through his weight quite considerably behind all those groups over a period of time. Uh, and was a spectacularly good advocate. Um, later, we mentioned the human Rights Commission at the time. And downy, uh, he was brilliant when he presented his submissions in Wellington there some time, further on and totally [01:34:30] sort of upset the commission, um, in the way he actually advocated. But, um, he was a sort of dynamo. He was the sort of power one of the power dynamos. Uh, Lindsay Taylor was very much an intellectual, um, from, um, and at the University of Canterbury. Uh uh, uh. Studied Sylvia Plath in English and, uh, the sort of darker text. We always jokingly suggested that it hadn't [01:35:00] helped him in many ways. He, um he was very much like the philosopher. He was a socialist action league. So he came in through? Yeah, that sort of, um yeah, very left wing political group, um, and which he sort of developed his teeth around, but found them increasingly unwilling to deal with issues related to sexuality and sexual politics. You know, having trouble with that with women's liberation as well as gay liberation. [01:35:30] So So his increasing frustration and depress, you know, despair drove him, Uh, not because he was unwilling but, you know, pushed him straight through into gay liberation. Whilst he always remained as part of that, he, um he was, uh, uh, one of those people who, uh, uh wanted much more action. As I say he did the paint ups on the star building. So he was very much a case of, um What's the word for it, uh, of direct action. Very much favour [01:36:00] of direct action. Uh, great enthusiast of David Bowie. Used to sing on the property hat at the most inappropriate times. Uh, and, uh, was wonderful at writing. He he He was a very good political writer, as was Mike. I always felt myself that I was not as good at writing stuff even today, Uh, despite all the experience and times I've had to, But, uh, he was also a very good organiser, [01:36:30] you could say. And it came from the socialist action, Sort of, uh, I suppose training programme in which he said, um, you know, and that's where I sort of got the experience. And this is how I'll pass it on so he could sort out and organising things extremely well. And they were two of the I say the big motivators and certainly power activists in there. And there were a number of others, so I don't want to detract from them either, But, uh, they [01:37:00] were a couple of the more prominent ones. Can you describe some of the other direct actions that were being taken by by groups around that time? Um, there was an attempt to lay a wreath on the cenotaph for all those gay men and women who had died in the war. Which I'm just I may be getting my dates a little bit mixed, but I do remember I think it was Guthrie. He was the mayor at the time. Sort of took it and threw it off the centre. [01:37:30] And that that occasion? Some, um you know, uh, some outcry and some some public debate. Um, also, there were a number of, um well, I say sort of legal incidents, One of which I remember, um, where a 22 men were arrested for kissing in a in A in a telephone booth in central central Wellington. And, um, sorry in central Christchurch. And, uh, um, [01:38:00] Evans, the magistrate there did the, um, absolutely outrageous took the outrageous course of action by actually dismissing them without conviction. Uh, that went through, um, and was subsequently overturned. But he had clearly there were people like this who would deliberately go out And, uh, you know, make a really strong and determined ruling so that it did create a fuss and to have people argue about it and over it, [01:38:30] um, the actual direct actions themselves In terms of protest, there were the occasional marches, Usually pretty, pretty small. Um, but, uh, they did increase slowly over time. And it was a little bit because you remember, too over these. This time we had, uh, the racist tours Hearts was also women's liberation was developing. There was, uh, an increasing amount of strident, uh, sort of Maori nationalism with and groups like that, um, [01:39:00] and also the Mount John and all the Omega, which I was involved in. So many of us were also involved in some of these other movements. And, uh, therefore, that often brought people we sort of became, I suppose, a bit like sort of beacons and and drew some people from those movements as well who were actually gay, but you know, had been much more involved in those other protest movements. And I remember, uh, with some amusement, uh, Richard Thompson, who was a lecturer in sociology [01:39:30] at university walking and very involved with the whole racist tours. And on the 1st March that I went, it was quite early on. It must be in the seventies, very early seventies, and I said, You know, he'd been marching for years and I said, Well, you know, how do you cope with this 200 people wandering through the streets, being subjected to sort of abuse because I was aware that was highly likely to come on for us. And he said, Oh, he said the good thing, Rob. And he said, You don't have to worry because he said in in 10 to 20 years, he said, Uh, no one will even [01:40:00] question it, and everyone will be delighted that we did it. He said it will eventually we will win eventually in terms of racism and racist tours. And, um, and that's why it was always interesting when, um, um uh, Jack Goodwin had said, you know, uh, politics is the art of the possible. That's why I'd always believed that, uh, Richard's comments were very interesting because as it did, it grew and grew and grew. And of course, you know, things did actually change, including in South Africa itself. And so, uh, his [01:40:30] comment was to say it was an idea whose time had come. And I've often used that with, uh, you know, queer liberation to gay liberation. With the number of groups in the seventies, did you ever find that people were being drawn in so many different directions that actually, you know, um, but basically disperse the energy rather than kind of a groundswell? Yes, Lindsay, Lindsay had a wonderful thing When when Sometimes there were criticisms within the movement. Um, at the time of people you know, hogging [01:41:00] the limelight and and making themselves important. Um, and his comment was always to say is is you know, gay liberation is not the movement to lead out publicly. And if you think it's a you know, a nice, clean, beautiful movement that is going to endear you to the public, then you better think again. And that was very much it. So there was always the temptation to move into other groups, but there was also the temptation to come the other way. And I certainly I know Lindsay is one of those examples [01:41:30] who came from another sort of situation to some extent, too had been involved in other, you know, more sort of left, I suppose, Um, you know, political groups and had come on across and just targeted it in a little bit more specifically to to gay liberation. Um, and so again, it seemed to be you didn't tend to pull yourself out of one group. You stayed there, but you maybe just diminished your role in it. And, um, you know, in terms of racism [01:42:00] and and and Vietnam was another area that I was involved in, but I didn't take any major leadership things, even though, you know, I was president and 73 president of the association. So we were solidly behind the withdrawal of the troops. Um, so people didn't tend to withdrew, but they did tend to focus their energies a bit more on one. You know, a specific one. The people like, uh, you know, Trevor Richards and those people who were in a lot of groups, but they, you know, this was heart was their their [01:42:30] area and that's what they did. Their most work in so 1976 was also when the National Gay Rights Coalition was formed. Can you tell me why and how that came about? Well, the the idea came through in 76. It actually, in January 77. Um, it actually started to get itself together, but it it it drew together a number of things. I. I, uh, rushed up the the side of the island with a number of others Lindsay Taylor and and some [01:43:00] Australian friends, uh, to the conference in Wellington, uh, over on the streets and got there. And then the first one, the first addresses from Jack Goodwin. Uh, and this is actually where he made his comment about, um, you know, the art of the politics being the art of the possible, um, and which I took considerable exception to at the time in that sort of, you know, 25 year old sort of way. Um, but also, during the course of the conference, it got sort of like it got stuck. It seemed like, you know, we [01:43:30] were sort of going around in circle and getting nowhere, and I'd been asked to give a presentation address to the meeting. Uh, which I did and, um, And effectively, I sort of let you know, let rip, uh, and I I said that we've got to a stage where we've got all these groups around the country. Nothing has happened. There's no coordination. It's come to the time when we have to start getting those things together. Uh, I said, uh, you know, annual conference has become a time when basically, we spend our time sort of pulling the [01:44:00] tree out of the ground, examining the roots and then hoping it's going to grow further during the next year. Uh, and on top of that, I you know, I also accuse them of being about effective as warts on a camel's bum. I think was one of the expressions I used and and also that, um, in many ways, in terms of issues of the thing, we had our a bit like the, you know, the ostrich. We had our sort of heads in the sand, and it left one part of our anatomy pretty vulnerable. And so, um, it seemed to, [01:44:30] you know, catch some sort of feeling at the time that despite the fact that all these little groups were developing around the country, there was things were showing some signs of movement. Nothing else was happening. And so I proposed at this that and in the speech that we needed to get together over the rest of the year. This was October and in January in Wellington hold a gathering of people interested in setting up a national organisation. Uh, and hence, uh, the gathering occurred in January and early [01:45:00] January, Um, in one of the women's, uh, uh, venues and we discussed the issue. It was overwhelmingly supported, and the National Gay Rights Coalition of New Zealand was born. Um, it was founded very much on an equality provision, which made it not easy for some groups because they were still keen on different, you know, levels of age in terms [01:45:30] of, um, what would I call it, I suppose? An age of consent. Um, but the assumption was that you you didn't have to sort of religiously accept every tenant of the coalition, but that it was equality focused and that that's as a long term aid. We wanted some wanted others in between. So we just quietly as it were simply didn't make that a sticking point for organisations like homosexual Law Reform Society. Um, interestingly enough, Um, we then [01:46:00] over the next month or two, set up a sort of constitution and got that going and established effectively the sort of first offices. I took a quieter role because 6 76 7 was my sort of the end of my probationary period. And whilst it had all gone through OK, I was still sort of coming out of that. But it was also part of the frustration. It also had contributed to the frustration of not sort of seeming to get very far at all, and [01:46:30] law reform itself, not getting very far despite all the prominent people and the and the solid support. Um, nothing was happening basically, and we had increasing, um, people's numbers of people standing up and saying, You know, let's have something. Let's have law change. But nothing had come through. Um, interestingly, the first coalition the coordinator of the coalition was, as she was known then, Judith S, uh, it illustrated something of the difficulty of going into sort [01:47:00] of national situations. And, you know, she came from a particularly distinctive immigrant family in Auckland. And so, you know, there were potential complications around that. And so this, uh, you know, sort of non deplume as it were, which people didn't even realise. I never realised until some years later that it wasn't actually her real name and illustrates something of the, you know, the I suppose the fear of of what you were going to be able to do. So she actually took it and headed it up. She'd come [01:47:30] with an Auckland background, and the women's groups fear and, um, uh, effectively took on the the task of of getting it established. And over that time, there was, um, you know, considerable amount of of effort, uh, myself and a number of others went around groups in the provinces to sort of try and draw them in. Uh, and that wasn't always easy because it was clearly a political group. And for many of the social groups, they were very nervous that they didn't necessarily want to be associated with political groups. [01:48:00] But the I think the attractiveness of, you know, looking at the equality, the fact that until we had law change, everyone was in danger. You know social groups. Um, you know, police have been raiding saunas, all sorts of things that happened around that suggested that no one was really safe and that, um, this it wasn't too dangerous to be belong to belong to this organisation. Um, I then came in and and, uh, and [01:48:30] led the coalition's 78 and 79. I think you know, it sounds don't wish to be just sort of pushing barrels barrels, but it it did certainly, uh was a really important expansion time. And a very important, um, what I call promotion time. Um, we at that time had the combined. What will I call it? I suppose the the combined strength of something like 65,000 members. [01:49:00] Uh, that was, of course, made up because student associations belonged. There was a whole series of groups, belonged and became affiliates of the organisation. But it began to sort of appear as to be quite a big and solid group, uh, to the point where one of the more difficult moments I had was in, I think it was 78 and the Shah of Persia, um, had dropped out. And of course, the Ayatollah [01:49:30] Khamenei was the sort of religious leader there. And, um, one afternoon part of the task of the coalition and also to increase more attempts to highlight in what should we say? Protest international incidents? Um, you know, gay men were being shot in Iran, and there were countries where death penalty was was prescribed. So we had made it a deliberate policy from the executive of which was made up from basically a representative from each of the [01:50:00] regional NGRC groupings, which started to actually, you know, bring the sort of regions closer together, Um, that these people had said, Look, you know, we we will start to highlight and also explain that whilst we we believe we're badly off, there are a lot of other countries that are much worse off even today. Of course. Um, I received a note and that there was something coming on from the television about a New [01:50:30] Zealand group of homosexuals threatening to kill uh, mosh Rabi, who was the at that time? The Iranian Minister of Justice. Uh, because of his systematic death penalties without trial of of homosexuals. And, um, this was curious because I don't quite know what it was all about, but it transpired in the short of it that he that, um, a letter that I had actually sent under my name [01:51:00] to the minister. Uh, you know, had sort of protested the outrageousness of it and the unfairness and the, you know, the massacring of people. Um, of which the translators had interpreted as actually a death threat against mosh Rabi. Um, and at that time, it was really very difficult because was there and who's been in the news just again recently, Um, and they were trying to preserve the sheep and lamb trade going across into Iran. So [01:51:30] it was, you know, economically, quite quite significant. Um, and the so this association of 65,000 homosexuals had decided to, um, as I say, assassinate the Minister of Justice. Um, And as it transpired, they eventually they summoned the, you know, the diplomat over there at the time. And actually, um, uh, eventually transpired. Agen France press had done the first release [01:52:00] of this information, but they realised that there were some translation translation errors in it, and in fact, hadn't been the case. But it had a huge effect, because, um, I mean, just in terms of the publicity that was sort of gained here in New Zealand. Um, also interesting. Because of the belief that you know, a group might even threaten, you know, 65,000 might threaten a violent, uh, you know, a way of, uh, you know, retaliating violently against [01:52:30] these offences against, uh, people in their the death in their country. Um, and so it sort of quietened down. But there was those sorts of initiatives. I think that they've got things going. And even while today I'm not keen to go through Iran in case they've still got my name on their records, um, it it provided the sorts of things that nationally we really needed. Um, the second really big one was we set about doing a major campaign advertising campaign [01:53:00] for the National Gay Rights Coalition. And there was some fairly, fairly strange sort of heading, like, you know what has 65,000 leagues or something and, you know, works to do this and that, uh, into the listener and, well, beings in Auckland of a fine graphics art. Gentlemen, did some sort of almost Audrey Beardsley type. Uh, you know, illustrations for it. Uh, But with that went a number of very, very impressive names. We were using the same trying to bring that also over to [01:53:30] the coalition that we it wasn't all just radical gay liberation groups. And he, um um, as a result of that, we had a huge difficulties getting it published because, um, most commonly editors wanted the signed, you know, letters of every person of significance on it. Uh, and some newspapers, the press, in particular in Christchurch was opposed to it and refused to print it. So, um, we again, it was a mixture of national and international action. [01:54:00] Uh, sorry. National and local action. Uh, we got, um, the the group there in Christchurch. We actually printed copies of the advertisement, and on the morning of release, we went around all the, um, you know, the the take the honesty boxes in the city and interleaved a copy of the advertisement through all of those papers. Now, clearly, we didn't get the, you know, the home deliveries, but, uh, that caused something of a roar as well, because we were determined [01:54:30] to see it in in newspapers. And, of course, the publicity that came out of that helped as well. And it was, I think, the first time in those years when we started to do sort of look at things and do them differently. Um uh, there was a a claim. One of the bills, the Freer bill, I think which, uh, we'll probably come on to in a moment. But, uh, that was an area where the sort of, you know sneakier things were done. And, uh, I think as the coalition gathered more support and [01:55:00] and focused on the national but also international other things around, so to it, uh, it, um it sort of brought a focus to the campaign. That was very helpful. How did you keep the focus within the coalition when you've got so many different groups and so many different ways of of doing things? Uh, there were two ways. Um, I think basically the annual conference has kept people together. I think. Secondly, um, it was a very strong feeling. It started to develop [01:55:30] that, you know, the time is here, and, um, it would be in everybody's interest to get you know, uh, a decriminalisation. At least there were other things. There were, you know, discriminatory. things and so on, but at least to get rid of the criminal. Uh, the criminal threat. Um uh, and so social groups, who often had those circumstances where criminal acts could well have been on their premises were working and supportive [01:56:00] of keeping a focus on that. So I think, rather than equality, uh, decriminalisation became the focus. People should not go to jail. They should not have sentences and should not certainly have their lives ruined by, you know, touching some other guy's knee. Can you describe for me how the different communities work together, like so, like, gays, lesbians, transgender? How How did that How did those energies kind of interact? It was interesting because it was somewhat like the, um, you know, the sort of social [01:56:30] gay groups and the more political groups and the, you know, sort of these loose groupings around the same thing happened. They often had quite a tension between them. Um, at that stage, the issues related to transsexuals was very, very low key. In fact, I think probably in terms of study and, you know, information. I suspect paedophilia actually had more actual study than the situation of transsexuals. Um [01:57:00] but the biggest. Of course. The biggest areas was the women and the men. And it was very difficult at times. Because whilst the the I think what I call the leadership of the coalition was clearly aware, I think we were pretty aware of the issues and the difficulties, Uh, as afforded women. Um, the, you know, the the rank and membership and file were very much like all New Zealanders, [01:57:30] you know, a great mix of, you know, anti feminist, pro feminist, you know, I don't care. I couldn't care less sort of situations. And because gay Liberation, one of its central tenants I remember was saying that we're not, actually, you know, looking for a bigger share of the cake, you know, in terms of the society. But we actually want to redistribute the the the the cake and and and and its organisation and how it comes about. [01:58:00] So it had that sort of profound feeling of a social movement as much as a sexual revolution movement. And that, of course, affected very much when it came to issues related to, um, you know, feminism and and gay liberation and the women, uh, were I think rightly, at times very, very suspicious and somewhat, uh, anxious about their involvement. There were a number of women, as I said, like Judith and, uh, Ray De [01:58:30] and others who were, um, strongly and wonderfully involved. And we were very indebted as men to them for what they did and how they did it. Um, but, um, for the men, there was sometimes almost ali sort of acceptance that because the legislation didn't affect women, uh, they were lucky. And somehow they were advantaged by this, uh, and therefore the battles really about us and their issues are, uh are of no great importance. Whereas we realised, [01:59:00] of course, there were a lot of issues in terms of feminism that were pertinent and very, very relevant. And the whole situation regarding women's place in society was not a dissimilar one to, you know, we were maybe just a bit further down the line. But if you were a what shall I say? A Maori disabled, uh, lesbian. Um, you know, your social status was so much further down even than men. And, um, a lot of members I think [01:59:30] of the rank and file really didn't want to talk about that or discuss that, uh, decriminalisation became the obsession. And, uh, to some extent, that was was a shame, I think, Um, but it meant that for many of us, we felt that focusing on that meant that we would go on and look at other issues later. We simply couldn't do the whole pile. But it was profoundly disturbing and disappointing for many women that we were not. I think the men in the organisation were not as [02:00:00] solidly, uh, supportive and openly supportive as they could or I think probably should have been. What was it like for you when you were travelling around the country as as the coordinator visiting these regional centres? What kind of feeling did you get from from from people? Um, the the the reactions were very, very strong and very positive. Because, of course, what happened, uh, often was each region was then responsible for [02:00:30] what? What you did the most commonly. It was just dropping in on a meeting and talking with people and, you know, discussing the sorts of things that were happening around the country or, you know, responding to questions and issues and so on. Um, because we weren't a financed organisation as such. You know, a lot of people have made sometimes some very significant donations, but we had no regular or major, uh, supply monies as such. Um, so that was very often the common thing, [02:01:00] but just the act of actually going there meant that very often regions set up, uh, radio and media contacts. And that became really interesting because first of all, it often focused in the area that something was going on. And if we were having trouble in the big cities getting names and details and contacts and just an acknowledgement of our existence, then smaller provincial centres, you know, such as where I came from, Hastings, Napier. Those places, [02:01:30] um, had not really had a lot. And yet there were groups like the Hawke, Hawke's Bay Equality Society and other groups that have set up, um, and and in Palmerston groups as well. But they really had no promotion, no local or regional promotion. So on the one hand, it was sort of good for them because they were getting some publicity and some acknowledgement that they were there and about, um and that, you know, that was helpful [02:02:00] uh, on the other side of that, of course not just, you know, their own protection or promotion, but also, of course, it gave us the opportunity to also push, you know, the particular equality issues that we felt were really important. So very often I did radio interviews and things like that as a as a way in Auckland. The Ian was very prominent in Auckland. Um, you know, we did some really good on Radio Pacific. Some of those places, a lot of [02:02:30] I call them, perhaps not Sounds rude calling them alternative. But, you know, not so much weed into, you know, the the sort of mainstream we're quite often prepared to do things like that. Uh, and I remember, um, uh, Wilson in Christchurch did a spectacularly good documentary where the talked about his climbing and all the amazing things he'd been done out in the wilderness and so on. And the last line was basically, you know, he was asked the question. Well, you know, surely there are some challenges you have, and his last line [02:03:00] was, uh what was it? Oh, yes. But you see, I'm actually a homosexual. Um, and the whole programme had not been on that. And, of course, at the end, uh, I even had people today saying, God, that was the most spectacular thing when I watched that programme that they've never forgotten that last thing about it. So there were people around the country starting to do those little things in their own community areas that were sort of generating more interest and and more political. You know, uh, more political pressure, which is what we [02:03:30] were wanting at the time you were touring. We're talking late seventies, so there's been almost a decade of, um, people talking about law reform, but it hasn't happened. What is the kind of energy like, um, energy was still very high because there was a feeling that something was going to move. This was constantly sort of reiterated and and and, um, intensified by the, uh, you know, New Zealand Homosexual Reform Society, [02:04:00] who were starting to get murmurs from within parliament. Well, look, maybe this thing isn't going to go away, and maybe we should do something. Uh, whether it was on the basis of, you know, these poor people need to not at least be sent to jail for it, which is the feeling many had, uh, through to those who were much more equality oriented. And so the threat? Well, yes, I suppose the threat politically was always there. It was never a serious one. Because, of course, we simply didn't have the political clout as a, you [02:04:30] know, as a group to ever be big enough to, you know, to to shift, uh um, you know, shift the electoral majorities and things or or change seats. And we deliberately never went out to do that because we knew that it was likely to result in failure. And so we had to be really careful about focusing our campaigns and making sure that they at least appeared to, you know, to be successful, uh, launching ones that were going to go down. The was really just We thought it was just like political [02:05:00] suicide for the groups, but, yeah, that the energy was quite high. And it was very much, uh, um, you know, intensified by the sort of rumours. And as we know, a number of initiatives coming through, uh, into, um, uh, into parliament to actually get those changes made. Do you feel that people were more willing to be visible. I I'm thinking that, you know, um, because in the late seventies you you would have started getting things like your gay pride Weeks and and things [02:05:30] like that were, were people more out? It's a very interesting question because I think in some ways they probably were a little more out. But an interesting thing happened in in terms of the movement, the beginning. You had active gay people largely then, as the the, you know, homosexual equality groups and the hugs and all those other groups came in. You had situations where there were a lot of people [02:06:00] around who were. You know, sometimes it's put in a humorous situation. I sort of come along to these things, you know, when it gets busy. In other words, I don't want to identify as being gay. I am. But, uh, I can work in groups in areas now where I don't have to stand up and say, Look, hey, I'm gay and I'm doing this. Uh, you can put your hand up and say I am working for human rights. And so the human rights campaign thing that we we obviously vigorously um uh you know, worked [02:06:30] on was one of those things that, in a way gave people a lot more people the opportunity to be involved in the issue without having to identify as being themselves gay. So more were coming out. But it certainly wasn't huge. Because when you looked at the numbers being involved, you still had to say, Well, you know, you couldn't identify them all as just being outright lesbian or gay activists. And so it's quite a hard one. It was something that was happening in terms of the organisation [02:07:00] itself, and part of its, I suppose, increasing respectability there. I hate to say that, but, you know, as it was gaining that sort of middle ground much more, it was, um, becoming much more. What sort of difficult, uh, so much easier to to be involved without having to roundly identify yourself. You've mentioned, um, some of the political things that were happening, but we actually haven't covered at all your your standing for parliament, Um, three. You know, three [02:07:30] times. Tell me, um, how did you come to the Values party and and why did you decide to stand as a as an openly gay man. It was very interesting because, uh, Tony Brunt, who'd originally setting that up in in Wellington as a sort of, you know, an alternative political party. Uh, it it it was, um, also designed, or the intention was to move into regional politics as well. Uh, and that did happen [02:08:00] to an extent afterwards. Even when the national, you know, grouping, uh, held, uh, held back. Um, but, uh, when I first saw it, and it was only, you know, the sort of the bones of it because it was clearly only being developed in, uh, not only did it have a very strong human rights for, but it also had a very strong green. Um, you know, a green focus as well. And, um and then it did look at women's liberation and gay liberation with no detail whatsoever. I might point, [02:08:30] but they believe that these things needed to be addressed and was part of that urgency. Um, and it was actually my mother in Hastings when I was there in 72 because I used to go back and work in the freezing works of all places at in, um, in the holiday period. Uh, and that often lead to an election period, which is the case, as it was in 72. And she said, Oh, you might be interested in this. So I had a look, and I thought, Yeah, this is interesting. So I wonder where they are in that, uh, you know, in that sort of spectrum. [02:09:00] And when contacted them, Um and we talked about it. They said yes. You know, Great. Um, but also, we haven't actually got any, um, you know, sort of homosexual policy as such. You know, uh, would you write it So I said, you know, I said, Fine, I'll do that and get some people together and we'll we'll put something up. So it came through there. In fact, in the end, I think in the actual 72 white, I think it's the white policy book. I think that they only [02:09:30] put in two lines or something. But the two lines were equality. Uh, and, you know, support anti discrimination with the two areas. And I thought, Gee, this is a huge gain, because if a political party is now actually starting to embed this, um, you know, other parties are going to be looking over saying, you know? Well, hello. What's going on here? Is there anything that's going to, you know, negatively affect us if we don't, uh, you know, take it over, as as even today often happens. So, um, [02:10:00] to to to shorten that on for 72. I said, Look, I'll stand. Um, I'll stand in Hastings, which was Duncan min seat and interesting because he was the minister of conservation and and farming and so on. Uh, not for much that I thought I would be likely to defeat him, but it was good to have a, uh, a debate in that in that area. Um, And then, of course, through the whole country, basically, we had candidates in every electorate, and this was achieved over about three or four months. It was staggering. [02:10:30] Um, and, uh, and Tony Brunt actually closed the campaign in Hastings, which was was quite interesting because he thought, you know, there might be some dent into Duncan McIntyre's, uh, um, you know, majority and that it wouldn't go over to labour. So the labour candidate was really worried that I would suck votes, uh, out of, uh, you know, their reelection in that in that seat. Um, and but what was interesting in it was that, I mean, apart from my tiredness, because I tended to work [02:11:00] from 7. 30 in the morning. Uh, sorry. 2. 30 in the morning till eight at night. Then I'd go out and do campaign and home meetings, go to bed for three or four hours and then back into work. So that was a five day a week, Uh, thing until the election campaign, when I collapsed and slept, uh, very soon after the election results. So the 400 votes I got was pretty much in. Although I was a bit surprised. I thought that was actually, you know, for a starter party 400 was quite interesting, because many [02:11:30] people I thought, there must be 400 around in the city is quite pleasing for the future. And so, um, so it sort of developed from there and then 70. Um, was it 75? I went as far as, um, standing as an out candidate in Christchurch Central, where I was living. And that was, um uh was it, uh, yeah, I picked up about 1400 votes or something like that. there. And I was really delighted and quite [02:12:00] surprised and because I'd made no pretence of being gay. Um, a gay man and the people in the working groups and that had all come from other sectors and things. So they weren't, You know, it wasn't as though it was just a another gay liberation group being set up. Uh, and then I stood again in 78. Uh, and I got about 2. 5 1000 votes, I think, which was staggering. I think I was about the fifth highest polling values candidate in the country if I remember, uh, by then it had started to [02:12:30] disintegrate a bit. Uh, sadly, uh, there were all sorts of things, and then, of course, it sort of, uh, you probably rude to say it's morphed, but it sort of moved into a green movement as such, of which I'm still, you know, thoroughly supportive of, but, uh, and it's very, very specific in terms of, uh of changes in homophobia and dealing with those sorts of issues in education. So, um, you know, it's it's great. And of course, Labour and National and others have slowly crawled on to the on the truck as it's gone [02:13:00] past over the decades. So have there been any other person in New Zealand's history that had stood as an openly gay candidate? Not in 75. So yes, the first. And in that I don't know of any other. There may well be, but nothing that I know of. And that was 75 and 78. Um uh, the only other one coming on was Ian Scott a little bit later in Eden. Uh uh, sort of a bigger notice, of course, because he was [02:13:30] to, you know, he was very close to unseating the can the, uh, national candidate there at that time and taking it for Labour so much more significant as such. But yeah, um, and it became reassuring because a lot of people said, Well, maybe you can do things in public life and that, you know, being gay isn't necessarily a problem. And those were the sorts of things I suppose personally and deep down, I wanted to, you know, to to illustrate and continue to try and illustrate that, you know, you can actually do [02:14:00] it. It can be tough sometimes. But, you know, I think we have got a duty to reduce the, you know, the the shroud of of invisibility. Get Get rid of it as best we can and actually be seen to be out there and doing what we can for our wider community. So in 1975 did anyone make a thing out of of you being gay? Um, no. Um, it was a little bit like my election to the presidency of University Canterbury Students Association, and, uh, [02:14:30] there was a lovely reference in one of the critical papers that said, um, Mike, I won't give his last name, but Mike had said that something that was understood that Robin was a good lay. Um, and apart from my thinking, it was totally untrue. And he had no reason at all to ever have known whether that was correct or not. Um, very often things were put, you know, like a gay candidate or whatever still happens today. You know, they talk about a gay teacher or a gay or a lesbian, this or lesbian that where [02:15:00] if they're talking about, uh, you know, they don't talk about a divorced woman or what or they sometimes do Talk about a divorced woman. But, you know, they don't talk about people as being divorced men or whatever, you know. So the sort of categorization was always there. Um, that never seemed to have any negative effect, really. And that's been one of the remarkable things. Certainly in my time coming through when times I have felt it's been a little threatening or worrying, Uh, it's never, you know, it's never quite come [02:15:30] to anything that serious that I thought should I should not have done this, but, uh, so that's been pretty encouraging and hopefully encouraging for people coming on. And how does it square with, um, you were saying earlier about not wanting to be necessarily out there as you're on probation as a teacher And well, that 1975 is right in the middle of when you're doing that. So right. But it was just at the end. 0, 75. In terms of the yeah, um, so it was done with considerable nervousness. I mean, [02:16:00] all of these things are done with a that dreadful feeling of Should I really be doing that? I know it's easy for people to hope and pretend that you just did this consciously and went out and and and and attacked as it were. But it wasn't like that at all. So, um, it certainly got more force. By the time I got to 77 and 78 in the coalition, Uh, I, I didn't give a hoot then, but they did have kickbacks in the school context. And, uh, at one stage when I I was up in a court case for, [02:16:30] uh uh believe it or not smuggling, um, that that when that came back, to be looked at by the school and board and a conviction is really not a criminal conviction. It's a fixture or something like that. But anyway, it's like a tax thing. Um and so, um, the the school was thoroughly supportive, but the then director of education, uh, was clearly extremely keen to get rid of me on the grounds of being gay. And [02:17:00] I still have all those files and stuff that I managed to get at home, and I want to look a little bit further into in the coming years, but, uh, and later on, other incidents occur where, having been out quite prominently, you're a bit of a target. And that's very scary, because you think if I get Exocet missile, you know, I stick my head up over the parapet and it gets lobbed off. The message also isn't very good to those following on. So, uh, I've been prepared to do that, but tempered [02:17:30] with a little bit of caution to make sure that I don't go down in in any way. You know that I That I am, uh, as it were undone or unseated from the work you're doing, um, by people who really just don't want you there. Do do you think that, um, the leaders of the gay rights coalition were targeted in terms of, you know? I mean with you know, the police looked more part of those people. Um, there was never as I [02:18:00] can remember. There were never any specific instances, uh, that I can remember where someone in the sort of those sort of leading roles those organiser activist roles was was attacked or but were clearly were watched. You know, we were We were clearly watched and watched over that time. Um I mean, it's interesting under the official Information Act. I've now got that some of my, um, security intelligence file material back very little. [02:18:30] I'm highly suspicious that there's a lot there, but, uh, it's it's sort of amusing because, uh, when I was involved with the heart side of things, uh, and I was involved in running the nonviolent action, Um, before the, uh, seminars or the field events, I suppose action programmes, training programmes. Um, just be building into the, uh, the races tour, Um, and the heart objections to that. [02:19:00] And there is a reference in the, uh, in my file that says that, uh, uh, myself and three others, including, um, Trevor Richards, um were, uh, four of the most dangerous people in New Zealand because they were publicly, um uh, an announcing their desire to set up by force a Marxist state in New Zealand. Now, it's really funny, because I've never, ever [02:19:30] had any intention to do that. But clearly people had heard things at meetings and were being at a time reporting. In fact, I now know who the person was that that was doing the spying for the security intelligence, but so I would not be surprised if those people were, in fact, not being I'd be very surprised if they hadn't been, uh, watched carefully at the time. Did you realise you were being watched? No. Oh, sorry. In the in the heart one. Yes. [02:20:00] We were aware of that one, but nothing that I know of in the gay liberation side that I was aware of. Yeah. Interesting. How had the climate changed from your 1975 campaign to the 1978 campaign with in terms of getting elected? Um, the the I think the biggest change had been that over that time, uh, we'd had What shall [02:20:30] I say? Between 78? Um, yeah. Much wider public debates over human rights legislation. There was a much bigger emphasis on that, and a lot of people, Certainly the activist people found that it was very attractive to use the human rights side because it was a much easier argument to run. Uh, whereas the sort of decriminalisation talked about sexual acts and activities, Uh, it was the area that gave the greatest opportunity [02:21:00] for fire to the, you know, to the church groups and the morality, Uh, the morality people. And so, um, human rights, I think, actually helped that and there was a lot more talk about it. And remember in this, too were the, you know, society for the promotion of community standards and Patricia Bartlett. And, you know, despite the fact that we may laugh at some of the things they said, they certainly still had, you know, some influence on what was going on. And even when I was in court, [02:21:30] um, in a, uh, publications hearing over, um, the Alistair, um I can't remember his name Alistair Taylor's book on that he published about sex and sort of sexuality That just escapes me for the moment. Um, and I was actually sitting by and we were talking away about it and and strangely enough, agreeing on quite a, you know, a number of things. But, um um, she when I was called to the to give evidence [02:22:00] and support of the book because I was a teacher and said these were damn good resources. And of course, they were advancing things like, um, you know, um, equality and, uh, decriminalisation, but also, uh, starting to deal with the anti homophobia side, which was the sort of third area that was gaining greater popularity. So you had the decriminalisation, then you had the, uh, human rights aspect and and that was coming really strongly. And then, um, hovering in the background, [02:22:30] there was the sort of, you know, almost in institutional homophobia that was occurring as well that were beyond the control of a lot of individuals who were often doing it, but just simply weren't even aware that they were doing it. And so that climate, I think, had a huge, uh shall we say, pressure towards, uh, you know, improving the political outlook for 78. The 19 seventies was, um, a decade where there were a number of times where kind of homosexual law reform [02:23:00] almost happened. And I'm wondering, and also some other things in parliament around kind of sexuality. I'm wondering if we could just maybe go through those and and just, um, get your comments on them. Um, when was the first time in New Zealand that kind of homosexual law reform kind of, uh, was attempted? Um, the first one, was the Vin Young bill, which was a crimes amendment bill. Uh, and I suppose, um, very much set up, um, and and initiated through [02:23:30] the New Zealand homosexual law Reform Society. I don't know whether Vin Young himself was incredibly personally committed to doing that, but certainly in terms, I suppose of human rights and just fairness, he he seemed at least, uh, keen to bring it into the, um the same sort of, I suppose legislative framework that was you was being had been considered in Britain. That's the consenting age of 21. There were a lot of other concerns [02:24:00] about that, of course, because, um, uh, the definitions of, um, of the consenting age were also somewhat tricky and very often problematic. Uh, you know, in public, for example, um, you know, if there are two people in your home, um, and you're having consenting relations with someone else in that house. Uh, does this mean that your home is actually a public place because there's another person? So [02:24:30] there were all sorts of little legislative things that cause some difficulties. But the big difficulty here and the one that I think, um, was why, you know, we were most commonly and vigorously opposed was, Of course, it didn't measure to the age of consent of 21. Uh, and we were it. It did make it problematic for the law reform Society because very obviously, they they had, I suppose gay men and women themselves say, [02:25:00] you know, we don't want this. Um, we're not, you know, not going to have it. Uh, and, um and so as a result, uh, opposition was pretty strong, but it was interesting because the vote was close, you know, 34 to 29 was indeed large number of abstentions, but it was showing and convincing us that certainly very slowly, bit by bit, we were making gains. And I think that, uh, also contributed to that pre 78 feeling as well [02:25:30] before elections there. That this was, um you know, that things were actually showing some signs of improvement. What did it do in terms of just raising the profile of the idea of law reform? I'm thinking, you know what I mean. Was there a lot of media exposure about this? Was it? What was it talked about? A lot. Um, yes, but very often, uh, quite negatively, uh, and and very often raised by either incidents or it was raised by, uh, or opposition [02:26:00] groups who were very strong, particularly, very strong you know, religious pressures, religious groups and pressures in New Zealand. At that time, a Catholic church in particular in tablet was very, very, very strident in what he thought about the situation and made it abundantly clear. Um, but also, um, the people also were caught in What will I call it? Sort of different situations. And so whenever there was a negative, um, incident [02:26:30] or event occurring, Um, it hit the headlines. Pretty obviously. Uh, but, uh, I think often the churches and the opposing groups are the ones that most commonly highlighted things. And, uh, as I mentioned with Patricia Bartlett, you know, the actual publication of other materials that they felt was disgusting, lewd and whatever, um, was, uh, also provided an opportunity for discussion. So most of it was very much couched in a a negative vein. And that [02:27:00] was interesting because clearly there were changes occurring in in in public opinion at that stage. We believed that, um from, uh, an article I remember in the Wellington newspaper, the Dominion Post. Um, we were at about 22% for equality, so we knew we had a huge battle. If it was going to be done on a, you know, on the basis of, uh, you know, the a public support public feeling, a range of others. There were [02:27:30] still quite considerable amounts of support for decriminalisation, but the next steps or other aspects in terms of, uh, human rights and certainly other areas like homophobia and that were well down the line around the same time, we had people like Marilyn Waring coming into Parliament. And, uh, the other big media event was the Colin Moyle affair. Did did Do you have any comment on on either of those two things? [02:28:00] Yes. I mean, obviously again, very much the same sort of process occurred, I think, for Marilyn Waring. I mean, she came in with a political party. Uh uh. Some would feel somewhat surprisingly, uh, that she was in a conservative party in government. I don't necessarily think that's the case in terms of these sorts of issues that doesn't tend usually to, you know, to involve a battle between a left and a right or any other [02:28:30] political on the political spectrum. Um, but the fact that she was, uh, you know, able to be quite outright and quite open about things was hugely encouraging when you know some of us who had been standing as candidates around. And in that time, um, we had hoped we starting to say to people, Look, you know, it is OK, and we're not going to, you know, go back into the closet, as the expression was, we're here, and we're here to stay, Uh, and [02:29:00] we will be as legitimately involved in decisions of the country as anyone else. Um, you know, even if some of us, including myself, had some misgivings about what that actually meant, when you're in a government and in a political party, But, you know, there were the signs of that and that actually was, uh, hugely encouraging. And the mo of fear was, um, a somewhat frightening example. I think to a number of us, particularly [02:29:30] in the more prominent side of the groups that, um, you could get, uh, done. It was still dangerous out there. It was, uh, shark infested custard and that what you could end up with is in the case of Moyle, when all of a sudden, you know, Muldoon effectively turned on him in Parliament and had made comments about, uh you know what he was doing and where he was and so on and making the accusation, [02:30:00] um, was that sort of standard, you know, bring the dirty washing out and, you know, and target the person and discredit them and what they say by, you know, identifying them in this most negative way. Um, it was a worry that that because, you know, it can happen. But it was a worry that it was used in the highest court of the land. Uh, and by you know, the prime minister. Effectively, um, [02:30:30] that was bad enough. But for many of us, I think Moyle response was an even greater worry because over a period of what, three or four weeks after it, I think he gave I identify three different versions of what he was doing and why he was there and, you know, and and so I don't think that actually helped it. To this day, I don't know which one is true or whether a mixture of them is true. Uh, maybe [02:31:00] it's irrelevant. I don't know, but, um, that, uh, as I said, made people very nervous that you could be attacked because of your sexuality. it could continue on. Um, And on top of that, um, that unless you were extremely careful how you went about it, you could actually, you know, turn What he could have claimed was a really nasty personal attack on him on a matter that really is a largely no, no business of Muldoon, anyway, of sorts, Um, it could [02:31:30] be turned on you and and and made to, you know, politically corrupt you or or reduce your effectiveness. It was interesting as well, with with Marilyn Waring in that, um she was basically outed by by by truth newspaper and and again, it's it's, you know, using your sexuality as as a kind of a something against you. Did that have any impact on you? Oh, hugely. It's still, you know, it's It's [02:32:00] a a lesser extension of the heart. It's that, you know, and a death of your name, I suppose. Um, which people, you know, we might think? Well, you know, that's not as bad as being killed, and obviously it's not. But on the other side, you know your name is important and who you are and what you represent. It's an integral part of your your being. So when people are attacking that, um and often when it's in quite scurrilous ways [02:32:30] uh, you can only But you know, feel what shall I say? Um, frightened, really, to be perfectly honest about what can happen and how it can happen. And but it does did actually give the ammunition to us and the arguments, particularly with the human rights legislation, to say, Look, this is the sort of thing that happens and, you know you can stand up and keep saying, You know, everyone is perfectly happy about gays and they don't say terrible things and they don't do nasty things [02:33:00] when in fact, you know, the evidence is indeed quite to the contrary. And, um and so it was. It's one of those. What do they call them? A sobering moment, I suppose, into what was that stage becoming quite a reasonable and effective campaign and a growing interest and determination to change that. You had these sort of dark clouds hovering over, and it certainly hasn't made. It didn't make it easy, and that brings us to 1977 where the Human Rights Commission [02:33:30] they refuse to include sex, sexual orientation so so that you can be discriminated against if if on on, on the on the basis of your sexuality. I mean, when I look back at that now, I think II, I can't believe believe that's the Human Rights Commission. We couldn't believe it either, and and we certainly couldn't believe the arguments that were being used that effectively was allowed to do this. I think Downie was the human rights commissioner at the time, Uh, of of Catholic [02:34:00] background. Um, and not that that always means that you know, people are opposed, obviously, but, um, that clearly was a significant factor. Um, in the in this decision, anyway, And, um uh, the National Gay Rights Coalition. I remember we actually, uh, put a submission before, um, the group, uh, and this illustrated Mike Waghorn? Um, yeah, clever way of dealing with things because what [02:34:30] they expected when we went in to make the submission was they had expected us to go through and give evidence. You know, that was the demand all the time through media, everything, you know, prove it. You know, you say these things happen. We don't have any evidence now. Of course, it's problematic because if you've been discriminated at work. Uh, it's not that easy, actually, To stand up and say, Look, I've been discriminated at work for the fear of your job and everything, too. However, in this case, um, Mike [02:35:00] said we won't argue it on the basis of of, uh, local evidence. What we'll do is we're going to go in and argue it on international law. And it was absolutely brilliant because, uh, they got a hell of a shock down here, in particular as a legal background, Obviously effectively, we advanced that in, certainly in Europe and a number of places in Europe and around the world that now, uh, sexual orientation was now an accepted part of [02:35:30] international human rights legislations. Uh, we detailed those out. We, you know, showed them all the technical and legal detail of it and simply maintained that, um, we needed the evidence to say this was not happening rather than to have to come out. And to prove this was, you know, this was happening. Why would these governments, uh, you know, and, uh, United Nations and other commissions, uh, be putting this legislation and and these recommendations [02:36:00] in place if they didn't believe it was happening. And so, uh, he was particularly annoyed at us, Um, arguing along the grounds of law rather than you know, the actual details of discrimination. And, uh um, whilst we didn't get anywhere and they still did what they did, we believe they just look sillier and sillier for what they were actually advancing and suggesting, And as you say today, we look back now and I'm just incredulous that they could [02:36:30] They could actually try and argue that it was lawful to discriminate against people, but also remembering that, of course, it was also lawful to put people in prison, too. And that was perfectly acceptable. And I don't even remember my parents, you know, questioning that in those early years, it helped me of saying, Well, I shouldn't go to jail for this, You know, that's pretty harsh. And a lot of people were starting to say that. And, um, one of the advances with the race relations [02:37:00] bill, People say, Well, it doesn't make any difference, you know? How can the bill stop that? But I don't remember my father there saying, Well, you know, the law does actually sort of suggest This is how I should act appropriately. And if I don't, OK, and I might never get caught. But that's what it's saying is what we accept is is is a reasonable way to deal with people. And so we continue to argue that. And despite that setback, which was clear setback and it was later with the legislation, uh, when other legislation came [02:37:30] through, at least it, uh it highlighted the reason and the, uh, why it was being done by a human rights commission and why it was a disaster. So in 1980 you've got, um, pat down the Chief Commissioner saying that, yes, you can discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation. When does that major shift happen? When the the Human Rights Commission says, Well, actually, no, you can't can't discrimination. Um, yeah. Uh, it [02:38:00] came really towards the Fran bill is when it happened. And there was the tradeoff between decriminalisation and, uh, human rights. And you may remember that the, um, decriminalisation got through and the human rights did not. And the argument used by many of the MP and the support as well, you know, um, maybe it isn't fair to send people to jail, which was part of that common, You know, the popular [02:38:30] feeling. Um, but whilst we may, you know, not let people be punished for it. We're not going to encourage it, so we're not going to protect people with it, so I'll vote for that. But I won't vote for the human rights thing. And I think even up to that point, it was still strongly against the human rights stuff. Until what 19. Was it 8, Uh, 1992 when the human rights a whole period went by. And it was also particularly sad for the women who, [02:39:00] of course, had hoped that the same sex behaviour provisions coming in, But one of the reasons they were also battling with us, uh, and working away there was the hope that it would actually cover them and then start to afford some protection to them. Just heading back before Fran Wild Bill. We also had another attempt to do law reform that wasn't that successful, which was in 1980 Warren, free bill, Can you tell me about that? That was a particularly interesting one, [02:39:30] because, um, it was at a time when I think the there was increasing debate over the the age of consent. Um, and my understanding was that sort of the 78 and particularly up to the sort of 80 period was really intense on that debate. Um, it was now moving strongly to the point [02:40:00] where if you said to a person, should a person be are convicted of, um, you know, indecent contact with another male that's consensual. And within a consenting range, Uh, should they be thrown into jail? Answer was becoming almost universal. People would say No, you know, uh, you know, publicly there are always people who would say things violently or whatever, but basically that was it. So that was almost a given. And now it was moving to OK, what about some of the more technical things, like [02:40:30] the age as such for equality? And that's where the tension, of course, also rose within some of the groups because of the feeling that this should be something. That is what, um, you know, it would be nice to have in terms of a quality absolute IE, consenting age of 16. Um, but it wasn't essential to the decriminalisation and to an extent, that was true. You know, at least you could say, Well, at least people over the age of 21 were going to be, you know, better [02:41:00] off if they were in a consenting situation and we would always advanced that consent was always a critical aspect of it, you know, in whatever form that consent taught legally. So those things were sort of bound behind the men's conference there in 78 that I opened spoke to, um were talking, too, about also the women's position as well and making sure that they were constantly I certainly personally tried to keep [02:41:30] raising the issue of women. But it was harder because, of course, it didn't have that that media or longer discussion thing about it, Um, and having experienced, you know, the the setbacks with the Human Rights Commission, um, out of that the law Reform Society was again working really hard to get a bill through. They knew that it was almost a given that, uh, it was, uh, getting rid of jail [02:42:00] was was fine. No problem. But it became the consenting age, and unfortunately, in a sense, and I don't believe Warren free. Um was quite, um you know, what shall I say? Informed enough about some of what I think the political pressures were at the time came through with the effectively traditional Bill. I think it was 20 he he had actually come down to And, um, [02:42:30] so there was a huge lack of support for us. It was felt it was just another tired old and and report type legislation. Uh, it was not helped by the fact that, uh, suggestions for change in places like Britain were just having no, you know, no traction at all. And people were saying, Well, you know, you don't go to jail now and we've got to protect young people and so on. Although even the age of 2021 seems a rather [02:43:00] strange age to be protected by legislation. But, you know, so they're having trouble overseas. So our feeling was No. We've just got to stick with it. And so we set up a campaign opposing and I made it very clear that we were not in support of the proposed, you know, we'd like happy with the intention, you know, and the motives and that people wanted to do things but that whilst it was this, um, there would be some problems. And when you say we largely coalition, but also the leadership of lots [02:43:30] of the groups. And at that time, um, not only the the the the the groups were a lot more regionally speaking out, too. So you still had the national. And that's one of the things that, of course, eventually happened with the coalition Is that, um it sort of faded later was partly a lot of the regions were actually taking over and doing some of the work. And it was the big debate between a national organisation and strong regional organisations that caused problems for [02:44:00] it. But we decided as a group to do something which was probably illegal, but certainly, um certainly very effective. And that is that we actually gained quite know how it happened, a copy of the draught of the bill that was coming to parliament and as a as a result of that, we engineered it so that we had a whole range of consenting ages, a different one on each of the 86 or whatever number of parliamentarians [02:44:30] it was, um, a different age. So you know 80 60 50 10, 6, You know, whatever year, um, and then sent them off to from Invercargill from someone down there remains nameless, um, to parliamentarians. And, of course, when they hit the offices, you know, he was just absolutely inundated with people saying, you know, you want a consenting age of six. This is just crazy. [02:45:00] You know? No way or 82 drivers licences, whatever other qualifications were there, and, uh, I mean, he just lost it at that stage. Um, and just, you know, he said he And that's why at that stage, he just dumped abandoned the bill. I think he came back into Auckland or and was met by a protest group. And he just said, To hell with it, I'm not going to have anything further to do with it. So, um, that certainly helped. There were a lot of other things done, but the pressure was strong, and it was coming from the people where [02:45:30] he expected the most support to be. Isn't that so weird, though? That that actually you've you've got the communities that actually, um, would you would think would be behind something like this? Actively kind of actively and vigorously scuttling it. Yes, not just opposing it. They were actively scuttling it, Uh, because many of them had actually come over to the belief themselves that if we got it to 18, what would happen if it got it to 20? What happens to the the younger people in this? Are they going to be? [02:46:00] And then you got into this whole debate about, um, what happens if a 21 year old, uh forms a relationship with a 19 year old, got a situation where it's illegal. So the, you know, the the 21 year old is now still subject to potentially to legal, you know, sanctions. And and so some of those debates became ludicrous. You could understand if it was a 14 year old boy, maybe and and well, if it's non consensual, it's automatic. It's rape. Anyway. [02:46:30] There's no no issue of whether it's same sex or not. But if it was a, uh, you know, well, let's say a 16 year old and a 19 year old what happens? You know so and in countries that have done this, they found that really, really difficult. They just tend to ignore it the police just do nothing. But, um, that sort of really awakened the debate on it. And that's where um, there was a, you know, huge, I suppose, uh, outpouring of discussion inside the groups. And they were now starting to come much more strongly [02:47:00] to, uh if it's taken all these, you know, decades to get it to here to 2021. And there was also, of course, something that I advocated around the country. And I said, um, that when the women's vote came in 18 was 18 94 uh, suffrage for women. Um, it had actually been proposed a year before that, but, um, my understanding had been that it excluded indigenous women. So Maori women were not allowed [02:47:30] to vote and women had effectively said, Look, we either all vote or no one votes, simple as that. And then within the year or so, they got rid of that. And by holding that pressure out, which they didn't have to do because they have clearly won it anyway, um, they were able to bring the whole group through. And that was our argument to say, you know, do we let our kids down? Do we let our younger people down at the moment, most crucial in their lives when they're developing their feelings about themselves and their identities, Uh, and sort of firming [02:48:00] them up, Do we slap them with the possibility of legal action? Uh, and so sort of became a lot more emotive, but a lot of others remembering their own days of coming through in high school and so on and coming out recognised very strongly that the negative effect of that What was it like trying to keep the energy up over all this period of time when you've had a couple of times in parliament where things have have almost got through, or I mean, what what was it like to [02:48:30] to actually kind of just keep on going? Because, I mean, you you're now what, 13, 14 years into into a political campaign? Um, yeah, I think I think the one thing that probably marks most sort of gay men and women out is is the adversity, you know, and just the the sheer opposition that you have to face it doesn't really matter a lot sort of where you are or your circumstances. And I think when [02:49:00] you got to the stage in your own life of actually saying right? I've sorted that and I've sorted that and other people have helped. And so on I I think there is an increasing and it certainly happened for me an increasing resilience and a and a feeling that, uh, it can actually be done. Um, and you just don't give up. You just grit your teeth and you keep going and you will lose some. And some things you know will go through wealth and good things will happen. Bad [02:49:30] things will happen, but it should not ever What's the word? Distract you from what the actual desire is. And and I think that happened to a lot in the movement. The energy was powered by the fact that you constantly got, you know, personal anecdotal instances of where you know, there had been disaster. Someone might kill himself in the community, which was probably the most common one suicide and happened increasingly and and and and prevalently even [02:50:00] over that period because the debate also brought more attention and focus on people you know, in schools in particular. You know, when I was at school, I never really talked about it. But now television, you know, news and so on Is all there the media, the social networks, You know, the question of whether you're gay or not or whatever is very often at the foremost of many teenage boys. And, uh, you know, uh, you know issues. So that sort of determination, I think, and the fact that there's sometimes these quite horrible things were still [02:50:30] happening and around, uh, it does today with the marriage. You know, Bill, when I think that, um, you know the marriage Equality Bill, whilst I'm quite happy to let it go on through. I don't have quite the same fervour when I realise that, um, you know that, uh, we've got such huge rates of homophobia and is still coming through. And even recently when I was at the at Mardi Gras in Sydney, you know, some of the comments I heard in the crowd of from Spectators [02:51:00] and some of the comments from sort of packs of, you know, young males was just horrific. And I thought, Well, you know, we've come a long way and the wonderful parade and all these things, but there's still a hell of a long way to go. And I think that's what often does the energising when you go home at night occasionally to cry and tear flannel in the bath. That's what you have to keep in mind. One of the other big things that happened in the early eighties was, of course, the appearance [02:51:30] of HIV and A I. And I'm wondering how that impacted on, you know, the gay liberation, Um, politics. Um, yes, I whilst obviously I've always been sort of involved in a supportive side in terms of, you know, the whole HIV thing and the AIDS campaign and still am and always will be because it wreaks havoc, you know, in the lives of so many people. Still sadly, [02:52:00] um, but also recognising, of course, that the groups affected by this are not far wider and greater than what was just originally pretended IE that it was only the homosexual male community basically was affected. Um, and so, um, whilst on the one hand, that became really important because it became a focus for many people and particularly in in terms of the legislation, Um, how on earth can you treat people and [02:52:30] have them come up and deal honestly with what's going on if they are in threat or fear of imprisonment or penalty. Um, there are lots of side issues in terms of privacy, things as well that came through in that, uh, and also in human rights. Because you'd say, Well, you know, just because a person has HIV, it doesn't necessarily mean they can't go to work or do things, or you have to smash the crockery every time you know they touch it with their lips. Um, in fact, you need [02:53:00] that sort of supportive programme very much like the early gay liberation days. Um and I suppose I come to the butt. Um, but there is, you know, and there was some effects that I think were somewhat unfortunate. Uh, I had always maintained over those years as the in 86 the decriminalisation and things came through that we would have a considerable lessening of the, um the organisation [02:53:30] and the activities of the liberation groups of those activity active groups that would decrease over, um uh the the decades, Um and for the two reasons I suspected, one was because, like, a big issue like this tended to suck people out into something that was deemed to be more important by them at the time. And quite well, I don't have any judgement on that whatsoever. Um, but it took [02:54:00] the activists most commonly and secondly, because we then move towards and it's probably still likely to bring quite a debate. But we move towards what I call single issue rights advancement. So you had a whole focus on civil unions. They've now got a whole focus on, uh, you know, marriage, equality and issues in which, in their own right, perfectly laudable. No, no problem [02:54:30] at all. But it's tended to sort of fractionate things a lot and that sometimes I fear that those issues are actually distracting from a far bigger issue and a and a wider problem, the issue being a society that at the moment, you know, in my role in education, we acknowledge even government acknowledge we've got 270,000 kids in poverty, and many will say, Well, what the hell's that got [02:55:00] to do with, you know, uh, gay liberation? But at that time, we did actually believe that there were lots of equity issues and that the fact that, you know, recent statistics show, uh, that brown schools in New Zealand are getting browner and white schools are getting whiter. Uh, and the DS R ratings of those schools are moving in the appropriate well, not appropriate directions, obviously, because I oppose it. But, you know, in the same directions means that we've got a lot of big issues in there [02:55:30] that impact on, um, I suppose gay issues quite severely and seriously. So there is a worry for me that a lot of the action now is very much more by a lot more privileged people, then, uh, was in the past. Now I've always considered myself to be relatively privileged. I didn't come from a wealthy family or anything, but I'd gone to university and done the sorts of things that you know, I accept as as quite a privilege, [02:56:00] you know, And it's enabled me to get a good job and and and and not face the sorts of things that many New Zealanders face every day. You know, whether it's poverty or whatever. And so, um, there was a lot more focus on that in those earlier days. I still believe that and that and these developments, with particularly AIDS, dragged a lot of the very much more political, uh, people away to a disease. And, you know, it's a significant and really important disease [02:56:30] to deal with. But that feeling was, um the personal is political, you know, and that people say, Oh, well, it's not a political thing but we were able to look after people Absolutely laudable, superb. No, no problem. But it's often, I think, taken away the energy. And some of that focus, um, which I hope may return, certainly work myself towards that. Um, and it has a lot of young people who are enthusiastic there, too, who don't actually like [02:57:00] what is going on? Not just for for for for queer people as such. Um, but for the, you know, the particularly young in schools and places like that who are having not a very easy time of it, despite many of us, you know, trying to do our best to improve it. So it was a mixed bunch, uh, a little bit good for some of the things that have happened. But in terms of actual sort of the original gay liberation, uh, it's been a mixed story. So what did actually happen [02:57:30] to to organisations like Gay Liberation and the the National Gay Rights Coalition? The Gay rights Coalition, uh, eventually sort of faded in the 18 eighties. Um, I think it was a shame because I think we now actually don't have any linked national advocating organisation except as it may have been in aids, um, in the AIDS organisation and that's always [02:58:00] linked off into government too. So there are lots of other sort of issues there. Um, yeah, I don't, um gay liberation. So coalition disintegrated too, because I had said earlier that there was a huge um yeah, tension about how the organisation should go further should it remain a linked national organisation with regional representation and so on, Or should [02:58:30] it devolve and should it send the power back into the regions? And I have no problem with either of the arguments, I can see the advantages and disadvantages, but I've always personally felt that New Zealand has always been a you know, a central outward system. You know, government is basically Wellington and parliament and everything moves out. So to organise in opposition to that by not having any representation and networks is to [02:59:00] really make it difficult. Not impossible, but difficult. And so I think that tension, the feeling of getting rid of leadership positions and so on, which was a general debate in a lot of the liberation groups at the time, uh, was very much about, you know, um, what sort of way do you want to go? And at the conference in Dunedin, Uh, I think in 80 or 81 it was finally decided to do away with major positions in the organisation [02:59:30] and to allow, um, you know, like regional groupings to thrive. And I would have liked and hoped that they did. But I don't believe you know, that that's sadly happened. And because I think even I just think of Gans, uh, that we set up or even pink triangle for a while. Uh, the national thing did actually give some impetus. Some things that have continued on, especially Lagan. I mean, it's that's magnificent, what they do and where they do that. But I don't believe [03:00:00] that that would have necessarily just come from a regional and, you know, one a city initiative, although originally, of course, it started in Wellington. But, uh, it was, I think, that, uh, impetus from the national that actually helped it. So that was the difficulty for them. The liberation groups, uh, had a variety of different ways in which they died or faded out. Most commonly was the feeling that now that was decriminalised 92 human rights. [03:00:30] Then, you know, not as late as that, because many of them had gone by that time. But things were OK, No problems. I can quietly go out to the suburbs, and and life is not too bad as long as I don't say too much to my boss. Or, you know, uh, and the surprising the number of people today who still don't say very much about their sexuality to their boss or their friends or their families or whatever still happens. But, uh, which is, I think worrying, too. But but [03:01:00] anyway, um, those groups didn't have then the what should we say? The immediate appeal? A couple of exceptions, uh, the youth groups tended to start to develop more, which is great. Um, and the other one, of course, is that welfare groups usually set themselves up independently, like the Auckland. Uh uh. Hotline gay line and places like that did, Which is great, too. Do you think in some ways, [03:01:30] that through law reform, we've actually lost some kind of community feeling? Uh, yes. Essentially, I think, um, the feeling of of the necessity of having those groups, uh, and support groups through to political groups are not don't have the same impetus that that they had at the time. And I think personally, it's a it's linked, unfortunately to a really big national [03:02:00] thing. And that is that Increasingly, I think people feel more and more powerless in our society. And so I don't see it as just being, um, gay liberation thing or women's liberation. Uh, a lot more. You know, I think we're what, now one of the most overworked countries in the world. And we just keep doing it, you know, keep working and working and going home and having dinner and going to bed and getting up and going to work in the morning. And I think, [03:02:30] um, there's a lot more pressure in our society to divide us up and to create differences. And sexuality isn't one of the easiest uniting areas you know, I think probably race and culture. And those areas are much easier. Um, you know, uh, much easier to do. Um, is it Desmond Tutu has said something about that? That racism was the ultimate tyranny. Because, um, you know, you could actually identify [03:03:00] You can't walk into a room and pretend not to be a Negro, uh, or Hispanic or whatever. Uh, it's very easy to do if you're homosexual, so you can remain completely, you know, completely anonymous if you want to. For your entire life if you want to. And so the whole community of things did start, I think, and have continued to sadly deteriorate. And the ones, of course, who have done the best out of it are the clubs and the bars. Basically, which is a bit ironic, really not how [03:03:30] it was intended to be. I haven't actually asked you, um, where were you? Uh, when when law reform homosexual law reform went through in 86. Um, well, it was a little bit different to 80 80 because it was quite interesting in 80. I was actually the Dorian society when it was thrown out. Uh, and I've never received such an incredible hostility and abuse in Wellington. I was in Wellington. Um, in fact, I got back that night on the Sunday night from [03:04:00] Wellington, and I had the most incredibly angry and abusive call from a very prominent member of the Christchurch gay community is still around there. And a nightclub owner, Um, you know to say, you know, you know what right have you got to to to block these things and, you know, and I essentially said, Well, you know, you don't want that to happen, you go out and develop a group that does, you know, and and, uh uh, and his attitude was our stuff. The words were a little bit more different to that. But anyway, [03:04:30] uh, you know, stuff The under 18, the under twenties. Um you know, um, don't worry about them. We we want to be set up and have the criminal thing taken off. Um, it's ironic now, because the bars are the places where most of the 18 year olds to 20 year olds spending their money and not terribly appreciative. So it was very, very hostile. And that was completely, of course, contrasted after the from the to the, um the Fran Wild, uh, introduction and I was in. Um [03:05:00] um I was in Christchurch at the time, as I remember it when it went through and basically just listened to it on the news. Um uh, there was a mixed feeling. I mean, I was very excited and very pleased that, you know, a very large number of us had over a long period of time and at some considerable personal cost in some people's lives, uh, had fought so hard to get that and the fact that it had finally come through [03:05:30] as an equality bill, even though it was somewhat unusual, the way that actually came about, Um, because they voted, I think, first of all, for 21. And that went down handsomely. Uh, and then I understand that they voted for 18, which also went down. All the groups moved around, Uh, and of course, 20 went down. And so at the end, it was left for either 16 or [03:06:00] let's go through all this again in another few years, and I think that was the important part is that I think Parliament realised at that time, even if it's not the best motive that it weren't going away, that it was going to keep coming back. And so and at the price of the human rights legislation, where people said, well, you know, I don't agree with what we're doing in terms of criminalization, but, uh, you know, I'm not going to be seen to support it is the term many of the MP S used. It meant that the human rights side [03:06:30] went down until 1992 and that actually came back and then went through with a raft of other things of disability, I think, and a whole range of other things as well. So yeah, it was a mixed feeling on the night I was with friends at that time. And, uh um, yeah, was, uh, excited. But of course, at this time, and not a lot of the use of the legislation was was not being used particularly much. You know, people were not getting arrested [03:07:00] and, you know, and a lot of the entrapment and those things that actually stopped, but at least it it felt that there was finally official and legal recognition that, um, these, uh, relationships, uh, were not to be cast into a criminal light. What about the personal cost to you of actually kind of being this political? What? What? What is it? What has been the cost to you? Um, yes, I've often [03:07:30] thought of that. Um, yeah, I think it's certainly been I'd be dishonest if I didn't say it was significant. Um, it's, um it it it puts in its earlier time. It's put, you know, considerable strains, particularly on relationships and particularly on close relationships. Uh, because it also meant that there needed to be, you know, someone that I was with who was also able to cope with, [03:08:00] firstly, the level of, you know, scrutiny, publicity, whatever else, Uh, and also, you know, the fact that relationships as such at that time were not the issue that was much further down and civil unions and equality. So, um, it was really incredibly stressful for that. And because you just you know, you it was a constant battle in in your non working hours to to be involved, and that sometimes meant quite a lot of travel, So [03:08:30] it there was something of a heavy price, you know, certainly one of my relationships, uh, you know, significantly founded because of the of this. Um, and the second part of it on the personal side, is I suppose it's that sort of common, uh, constant. What's the word? Um, that sort of constant limelight. Everyone thinks, you know Oh, it's lovely to be in the headlines and well, actually, it's not. And I remember Lindsay [03:09:00] saying many years ago, just before he died in London, he said, You know, you don't want to This is one of the movements you don't want to be seen to be leading out of, You know, any altruistic or egotistical reasons there are much better movements to get in behind. And he was sort of right because, um, that just sort of meant wherever you go, people sort of know you. And so there are also certain expectations that are placed. Uh, you know, beside you, I've been very lucky. As in leading [03:09:30] in the presidency of the Post-primary Teachers Association, there never been any significant difficulties in there I thought there might be. And clearly some members are not happy having one of those people leading the association. But, um, but also, too, you have to recognise that, of course. Um you know, there are other things in life. And it, um you know, sexuality isn't a critical elect an election factor. So it's been a range of things that get you elected to positions. Not just that, um, [03:10:00] and but that personal side sometimes makes it incredibly lonely. Um, and it it's also forces and forced me to gather together a number of people. And there's probably about half a dozen now a bit scattered through the world, but that I can talk to about some of these things. Uh, but and you sort of know where you're coming from. You know, um, if I said in a public place, you know, I have some considerable misgivings about marriage equality, uh, the [03:10:30] house around, I think, would be considerable. And as I explained earlier, it's not. It's not just, you know, marriage equality. That's the issue. It's the effect that some of this is having in terms of, uh, potentially just taking the focus away. Some of what are more important things like kids getting beaten to death and so on. And so, um, all those things help, but they're very bitsy. So my next question is, what's the next campaign [03:11:00] after marriage equality. And I don't think there's actually an answer that anyone's got. I've got plenty of answers that, you know, I think the homophobia one and and schools, and that is just absolutely critical. But, um, you know, that's sort of it's difficult. And one of the other things is, you know, for the marriage equality, too. I find it incredibly curious that it's a nice word for it. Isn't it curious that, uh, an institution [03:11:30] that comes from the very central tenants of a sort of judeo-christian culture that has spent what you know, hundreds of years, you know, burning, defiling, killing, Um, women and men who are same sex oriented that somehow one would want to, you know, copy and emulate their one of their central practises, I suppose their worshipping practises I find really strange. I you know, I can shrug my shoulders and say, Oh, well, you know that's [03:12:00] the way it is. But it does seem really unusual that we should be so fervently advocating for something that is so, you know, firmly embedded in in Christian culture. And and so I can't say that I'm not uncomfortable when those sorts of issues arise, but, uh, the personal cost. Yeah, I think apart from the isolation, it does restrict your friendship potential. And people do often look at you and in terms of the relationships with you [03:12:30] in terms of what you've done and, you know, that's quite nice. It's not a problem with that, but it does. It shouldn't also automatically then shape your you know, your future or what I might do in the future. And that will certainly continue. Robin, you you've spent an extraordinary amount of time in the education sector. I mean, your whole career. I'm thinking, Is it? Yeah. Can you, um, possibly reflect back on that 38 year career and and come from [03:13:00] a gay perspective and see how how has it changed for, um, Rainbow people in education? Yes, it's interesting. Over that period of time, there have clearly been, you know, some quite marked changes. Uh, you know, from those very early days, I mean, being a student myself, um, where things were pretty hostile and and, uh, and and huge amounts of ignorance and and misunderstanding, um, very often fears that people [03:13:30] have that you appreciate yourself. Just don't simply don't exist. So the education system largely, I think, uh, as a fair comment would be to completely ignore the issue and try to make sure it it never appeared. Um, except where may be incidents of a personal nature affected in communities and schools the by and large. Um, you know, education in those areas, uh, simply placed it in a sort of category of masturbation or other [03:14:00] sort of health and health issues. Um, but over certainly, over the last 2025 years, there have been, you know, some quite dramatic changes in in, and some, I think, good improvements. Um, the two areas that are probably focused most on the changes in some curriculum areas whereby, you know, health education now is a lot more comprehensive and engaging. Not that that always means that students are engaged. But but, uh, there's certainly a lot more [03:14:30] presented, uh, in in that sort of education area, there's an an overwhelming desire to what shall I How will I describe it? Um um, make the material more relevant in terms of examples. So, um, there is currently a book being, uh, prepared a text on social movements in New Zealand. for a history level three and then one of those is the, um, is a sequence [03:15:00] I've just been involved a little bit with on the gay liberation movement and how social movements develop. Um, and that's really good, because there'll be youngsters sitting there who will say, Oh, so that's you know what happens so much more, much closer to themselves. And so the relevance of examples and local examples, uh, has improved dramatically, and that's also been aided by a lot of things, like visits to schools. In those earlier days, a lot of us went round to high schools and their liberal studies programmes. And, you know, they [03:15:30] could see a real homosexual, Um, and asked those sorts of questions, Um, and despite you know, very often the jokes and things that were were made at the time, there was most often a pretty real, uh, what should we say? Desire to to to find out what is going on and what was happening and what the situation is, and I think often more so with women than young men. But, uh, but anyway, there are. I think there are reasons for that. But at least that awareness has increased. Um, no doubt the research [03:16:00] shows that those who know, um, other lesbian or gay people are always, you know, overwhelmingly more supportive than those who have never met one in their lives, if that's possible to be achieved, um, so that side of it, the curriculum has developed. And then, uh, more of the programmes related to what I call sort of abuse have also made and are starting. I hope to make a difference. [03:16:30] Uh, I think generally in bullying, uh, is one area where schools in particular, Education Ministry and so on, Uh, and our our our unions are trying to, as it were, make breakthroughs, uh, in reducing what's actually happening. And, um, one of the aspects of bullying is, in fact, homophobic bullying, uh, quite prevalent in schools and still, unfortunately, very prevalent in some. [03:17:00] And while some schools are doing a lot to improve that and developing programmes, they very often see this in a context of a discrimination, Uh, and in human rights, So they'll look at, you know, racial, cultural, um, discrimination and harassment. Harassment. Um, you know, um you know, sexual, uh, not sexuality, gender harassment. And so on, so it it takes a much broader appeal. [03:17:30] It's a worry because you need to be careful that you don't sort of lose the specific in the general. You know, people then don't have to focus on homophobia because they can talk about, uh, you know, racial abuse or whatever else. And that's a much easier thing to talk about for them. Uh, but at the same time, it does acknowledge that has been happening, and and and that's a really, you know, a a great development. Um, and it's, I think, just a slow and gradual and greater acceptance [03:18:00] of those sorts of issues that are making things better. But there's still, uh, the translation from the theory into the practise is, uh is not always as as good or as glowing. How effective have things like the gay teachers union and more later, the Rainbow Task Force been I. I think I'd say they've been, uh, spectacularly ineffective. [03:18:30] Uh, that may seem very harsh, but, um, I think they've been effective and effective in the sense that they've given continued to keep the pressure and the impetus on, you know, um, as it were programmes and the needs, Uh, increasingly, people say, you know, there is a problem. It's called homophobia, and it needs to be dealt with, uh, and probably dealt to, um so that's sort of strongly there. But in terms of translation of the [03:19:00] work of these groups, even to teachers who are, uh, in the community and teaching in classrooms, it is not good. And it is not even easy because, um, the identification of a particular person in a school means a whole series of other things. Uh, namely for the school name, their family, parents, whatever. Particularly if it came through crisis. If it's a person simply wanting to set up a support group, whether it be a a, um uh, a teacher or a student, you know, there are a lot [03:19:30] of inherent risks, and boards of governors now in our very competitive education system are nervous about, uh shall we say, advancing that they are, you know, queer friendly. Um, because it may well, you know, increase the numbers enrolling in the, uh, you know, in the school, down the road, single sex schools or whatever down the road. And whilst we sort of smile and say, Oh, well, you know this is going to happen. Um, it's a shame that a that it can And B, Of course, it [03:20:00] suggests that the attitudes out out there aren't entirely, you know, it's very nice if, uh um, you know, your son is is is gay, and we can deal with that, but mine certainly isn't. So I don't I don't have to worry about your issues. And that in itself, in the longer term becomes a, uh, a significant concern. I think that, uh, too, that the other thing about the groups is that they are just there are very few of them. [03:20:30] And so, as we found in terms of increasing the density and the the numbers involved in the wider liberation type movements and the gay rights, um, shall we say, uh, sort of freedom movements is that they slowly increased in size and and, you know, public. Uh, what should we say? Visibility. And also in terms of public opinion, uh, and discussion and debate. Uh, that's very hard in education, [03:21:00] particularly because you're teaching Children. So the whole hideous, um, distraction of paedophilia comes into its paedophiles. And, um, you know, there have been enough instances from the Peter Ellis case through, uh, sadly, to make men very nervous about coming into any education job that requires, you know, close physical contact with students and and particularly [03:21:30] in early childhood and also in in primary, even though there may be people who have never, ever shown any indication and have no association whatsoever, uh, with anything related to those sexuality issues. So, uh, that's sad, because the number of men, uh, reducing their contact in the education service is continuing to fall dramatically. And I think this is certainly one of those areas. So, um, the inability of groups to be able [03:22:00] to help in those areas, uh, really does has caused some restrictions and some problems. What? What do you think the biggest challenges are for, um, Rainbow students nowadays? Hm? The biggest challenge is probably survival. Um, and I think it's as much an emotional mental survival as it is physical. I think that, um [03:22:30] for many of them, um, developing the opportunities for them to have, you know, access to support and services, professional or not, doesn't necessarily mean that everyone who comes out as a teenager is obviously psychologically imbalanced or whatever. Um, so that's that is important. And a huge challenge, but also, um, uh, a very major attack. [03:23:00] And I use that word, uh, quite deliberately on the issues related to particularly to homophobia. Uh, they are areas that the youngsters themselves can't easily combat because they are, you know, part of the sort of wider mores of the sort of society. You know, They're part and they very often, um, you know, linked into the dynamics of the groups that they come out of, uh, the term, [03:23:30] uh, homophobia, phobias is is interesting where you know you can have a a group of young people who are making abusive comments to someone else and one of the group, uh, will also be doing that themselves. But then might later turn to me and say, I'm not including you in this Mr Duff. And you think, um, in this abuse, why are you not or, you know, has a brother who is gay. What's happened is [03:24:00] they have assumed that because the group is clearly illustrating homophobia or, you know, hating gays, queers, whatever that therefore, you know, to be part of the group, you need to exercise that even if it's personally distressing for you to do so and numbers of instances where the number of people initiating that may be very small. But the rest carry on into the abusive behaviour because they see that socially, you know what you're required to do or [03:24:30] to show that you're part of the group, particularly with males. But, um, you know, it does happen with females, So it's getting, um, that to be acknowledged and dealt with, uh, in classrooms. Um, the behaviour of teachers have to increase their awareness of you know what is happening and that it is not now sufficient to remain silent when abuse occurs. You know, just simply not saying anything and avoiding [03:25:00] it. Um sends a message, but it's not the message you want to to deal with. Um, and thirdly, I think, uh, which I mentioned a little bit on earlier was the curriculum side and that more examples of you know either the local people, local people are involved. Uh, is also, uh, a huge and important part to hit the the two big things, of course. And that's still the lack of visibility. Um, even if you look at, [03:25:30] uh, you know, homosexual males in, in in shows on television, You know, there are certain, you know, the the type. The type, uh, setting is pretty clear, isn't it? The stereotypes are there, you know, from are you being served through that of getting youngsters to feel comfortable that they don't have to be like that? Or that if they think that they are homosexual, they have to run around and in frocks and and in high heels and pretty clothes. If they want to do that, [03:26:00] that's fine. But not that they feel that the condition for belonging to the group, uh, is going to remove something that they feel about themselves. Um, so that increasing call, I suppose for, uh, what should I say? Acceptance of diversity and acceptance. A really genuine acceptance of diversity. People say we accept their policies don't always reflect it. Um, but to bring about an increasing, I suppose confidence, [03:26:30] Uh, particularly with younger people where I think a lot of the major, um you know, major changes in the future are likely to come. And, uh, the support is certainly pretty thorough for me for that to continue and to assist and support. Speaking of support, you're also involved in the Canterbury region with gay link, which is, uh, a support service. Um, can you tell me about that? And some of the other things that you're doing nowadays? Um, [03:27:00] yes, I've reduced myself considerably from the direct sort of phone counselling and and that sort of work, I found that also very gruelling, of course. Uh, but also, um, uh, there are lots of other people who are able and qualified, uh, and and and suitable for that role. So I I've largely focused and and focusing my time now and then on into my semi-retired is to to to look at two areas [03:27:30] in particular. One is what I call the sort of our history, I suppose, is the best day. Uh, I'm constantly astounded by the lack of knowledge. You know, I might say ignorance, but it's it's not an intentional thing. It's just the way it's happened of many of our younger, um, queers and queer who, um, um who are simply not aware of a lot of the things that have actually happened. And when I've said, you know, you could get 14 years or seven years in jail. You know, they're [03:28:00] just absolutely flabbergasted. Um, it's mind boggling to them to think, you know, just because you touched a guy, you can go to jail. Um, so there's that negative side of their history, But there's also a huge amount of the positive side of it of the people who have, you know, have worked incredibly hard over many years and decades back. And it doesn't matter whether you go into sort of history and back into into the colonies or whether you stay within, uh, within Maori culture, that [03:28:30] they have very rich traditions still of same sex involvement and behaviour. And so it's on the one hand, you know, identifying the the the hideous bits. Uh, but recognising they don't have to overrule the lot. And so that sort of support and acknowledgement is really important. So oral history, I'm particularly interested. I'm hoping to to do some work and support more support for Gans, the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand. A very noble, [03:29:00] uh, group and very, uh, important group. Uh, and I'm hoping personally to start developing some, um, database work where I can develop. Um, shall we say, sort of sketches of people and in time, much of which is starting to come out now that can be accessible for people who are putting history glimpses together and can use things to, uh, to enlighten and inform as they go to, you know, women's groups or [03:29:30] whatever else. So there's that sort of history side and the other is, uh, certainly for for me is the an attempt to try and resuscitate, although it can't happen quite like that, but because it needs a different approach. But, um, to to should we say, foster some more interest and enthusiasm among groups themselves in the whole sort of political side of things and that, um, we do have to focus on some [03:30:00] of these, uh, you know, these issues and we need lesbians and gays to do it. And I know as I move around and talk, there are a lot of young people who are not entirely satisfied with what's going on and the, you know, the clubs, they like the clubs on the weekend and they like the bars and enjoying them, dancing and enjoying themselves, and that's great. But they also feel there are other things they'd like to do, But again, they feel that sort of powerlessness that you know, many of us through our, you know, in our respective [03:30:30] communities, whatever that's focused on often do. And it's so it's encouraging them and and, uh, you know, giving them opportunities to experience the huge energy those young people have, uh, as well as many skills they have. But they don't always realise they actually have them, so that site will become important over the next few years.

IRN: 715
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/auckland_pride_festival_2013_alex_taylor.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004237
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089531
TITLE: Alex Taylor
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alex Taylor
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; After Lilburn (2013); Alex Taylor; Annea Lockwood; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland Pride Festival; Claire Cowan; David Hamilton; Douglas Lilburn; Feel (2012); Gareth Farr; Give Us a Kiss (William Dart); Jack Body; John Ashbery; John Elmsly; Lilith LaCroix; Love Sonnets of Michelangelo (composition); NZSO National Youth Orchestra; Nelson; Samuel Holloway; Songs to the Judges (Mervyn Thompson and William Dart); Westlake Boys High School; William Dart; arts; bullying; coming out; composition; creativity; family; gay; homophobia; lesbian; music; origami; parents; poetry; school; school counselor; sexuality; single sex schools; visibility; youth
DATE: 24 March 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alex talks about his life as a gay composer, and being part of the After Lilburn concert held during the Auckland Pride Festival 2013.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So I was, um, was born in grey. Um, I. I grew up in a house. Well, my first few years were in a house in Elgin Street in Grey and then moved to Nelson for a couple of years and, um, then moved back up to Auckland when I was about five. Went to school in Devenport. And then, um, so Devenport Primary Intermediate and then West Lake Boys High school. Um, I was brought up by, um, lesbian parents, my mom's, um, a lesbian and Vicky and Trish My Well, my two moms really, um, [00:00:30] brought me up. And so, um, I've sort of had had that in my upbringing from from the very start. And, um, I have a younger brother. We're both, um, part of a, uh, a four person family with two moms. And, um, yeah, that was kind of that's come where I where I where I come from, I've heard other people say, um, in particular, lesbian parents talking about their Children, that actually the Children actually had to deal with quite a lot of kind of bullying at school because [00:01:00] of the fact of their parents being lesbian. I mean, did that affect you like, uh, it was not overt. Um, but there were times when I had to deal with it, and it was kind of maybe something that I didn't necessarily tell people unless they were good friends. Um, and some people who knew said would say things about it sometimes, or, um, I suppose there was an element of that. But [00:01:30] II, I wouldn't say it ever was particularly overt bullying. Um, it never became a really big issue, but there it was, kind of always there. Can you describe yourself as a child? Um, precocious, Um, very, um, teacher's pet. Um, creative kind of, um, like to dress up, like to, um, collect things, write [00:02:00] lists of things, um, draw paint, um, write poems, um, was very active and very happy by myself. Um, I suppose I didn't become a very social person until, um, I was a teenager. I didn't. I mean, I'm still a kind of solitary person sometimes, but, um, I think as a young kid, I was I you know, there was some I wasn't the most social [00:02:30] person at primary school. I had a bit of bullying, and, um, you know, I was I was the brainy kid. I had curly hair. I had a runny nose sometimes. So I was kind of like, you know, I got picked on a bit sometimes. And, um, yeah, I think I I enjoyed my own company a lot as a as a child. But I also, um yeah, I think I grew to be more sociable later on. So that kind of bullying What? How How did that affect you? Um, [00:03:00] I'm not sure. Um, I guess it took me a while to kind of, um trust people as friends. Um, I guess, um, I was probably sometimes suspicious of why people would want to be my friend. And sometimes people just wanted to copy my homework. Or, um, you know, things like that. And you were saying from an early [00:03:30] age that you were into creative activities. Where where do you think that kind of creativity comes from? Um, I've always just liked making things. I, um probably one of the first creative things that I learned to do was to fold paper to make origami. Um, I. I went to an after school care programme and was taught how to make paper cranes and various other things. And I started, um, going to the library and getting origami books out of the library and teaching myself how to make [00:04:00] various things and and, you know, I still do origami. Now, it's one of the the most, um, fun things to do. It's not really actually very creative because you're just following a set of instructions, but I think the the act of making things really stayed with me. And, um so that was when I was about five. And then, at the same time, I was learning the recorder and then the violin and later, other instruments and and, um yeah, I, I guess I Yeah, I just like to create things [00:04:30] and express myself in ways maybe other than just talking to people. Yeah. So tell me how you came to composition. Uh, because obviously it's one thing playing an instrument, but actually, Yeah, well, I think, um, I think I came to composition sort of gradually. Um, I probably the first thing I composed was at at primary school. I had a, um a teacher Chris Parks at Devonport [00:05:00] Primary School who, um, ran the school orchestra, and we did a sort of group collaborative composition project as part of the, um, 100 and 25th year celebration of Devonport primary school. So we all get to compose little chunks of of material. Somehow I don't know how we did it. We must have improvised together and, um, and written down, you know, a few bars of music each. And then somehow, Chris, you know, formed this thing into into one, homogenous ho, and probably [00:05:30] not homogeneous but, um, into a whole thing. So that was probably my first experience of composition. And then at high school, um, probably got into a little bit more, um, started writing pieces for specific instruments and things and then, um, went to university at high school, Did a whole lot of things probably could have done anything university decided that I would do English and music because I wanted to be. I wanted to write, and I also wanted to write music. Um, and that was when I really got [00:06:00] into to music properly. I think when I started hearing this, um, hearing contemporary music properly, I, I guess I was familiar with, um a little bit of the the standard stuff um, but I hadn't really come across sort of live performance of what you might call edgy or contemporary music. Um, and I was really excited by that. Um, so I think that maybe the first couple of years of of university was really [00:06:30] formative in terms of I actually want to create something that's challenging and, um, slightly, um, different and edgy and maybe pushing a few boundaries. Yeah. You mentioned hearing music properly. Can you talk to me about what I mean, what does that mean? Yeah, um, so I guess you start when you start studying music. You, um, are exposed to all sorts of different, um, [00:07:00] materials and music, and you're forced to, uh, uh, reassess how you actually listen to music. Um, up until university, I suppose I was listening to music as, um, entertainment or as background music or as something to sing along to, um But I think that that changed. And you you kind of have to, um, listen [00:07:30] more attentively when you're when you're wanting to create music, you know, you, you you focus on the details of how it's constructed. How how you you kind of are aware of how the music is interacting with you and how you're interacting with the music, how you're how you are as part of an audience or how you are as a performer. Um, and also, being a performer changes how you listen as well. So that's a different angle that I've also had running alongside the composition is, [00:08:00] uh well, I don't know running alongside your composition, but but your your sexuality, can you tell me a wee bit about that and how you kind of have come to your sexuality? Yeah, Um, I suppose I've probably known I was gay since I was 12 or 13. Um, at high school. Um, but it took me a long time to kind of come to terms with it, and, um, I suppose I didn't start to come out until I left school. Um, I [00:08:30] had quite a close group of friends at high school. Um, who? I didn't tell about my sexuality. And then after uni, you know, when I went to university, um, and whether I told some people or they found out about it, that I sort of drifted away from that group of people, and that was sort of an unfortunate thing, but, um, yeah, I suppose it's been a gradual. Um, well, I suppose it's a It's a continual process for most [00:09:00] people to come out. You know, you sort of have to come out to every person you meet, really? At some at some point in time. Um, so it's been Yeah, it's been a gradual process, but, um, I guess the process started, um, at the end of high school, when it just I think high school for me was quite, um, I. I enjoyed high high school immensely, but it was a really difficult place to be an out gay person at an all boys school that was quite traditional. And there was, [00:09:30] uh, lots of homophobia at Westlake. And, um, that yeah, I found that that quite difficult when people would just kind of were casual, you know, just casually, um, just casually homophobic and in all aspects of school life. So, yeah, it took me a while to kind of get through that and, um, [00:10:00] just kind of be comfortable to to talk about it at high school. Were you aware of other out students? Uh, there were maybe one or two. there was no one in my year who was who I knew that was out. Um, there were a couple of people who, um, weren't were not out, but who I knew were gay. Um, but not people I was close to. And what about things like, um, gay, straight [00:10:30] alliances and stuff in school? Was there anything like that? Uh, not at my school. It wasn't really, Um I mean, there was a school counsellor, and I didn't actually ever go to the school counsel, which is probably I probably should have. I should have probably taken advantage of that. But there was never, um it was never discussed as an issue at school, which I think looking back is really, um, shocking in a way, um, [00:11:00] I, I guess the headmaster was a Catholic, um, guy, you know, very staunch Catholic and wasn't a Catholic school, But he, um, kind of promoted the whole school ethos, and, um, I don't think that kind of factored into There was a lot of talk about sort of, um, manliness and and growing into a man. And, [00:11:30] you know, we we would always be addressed as young men, and, um, but there was never a discussion of sexuality. Yeah, and just to put in a wee bit of context. Um what what year are we kind of talking? So I was at high school from 2001 to 2005 and when people were were kind of casually, um, being homophobic, I mean, what did that entail? Give me some examples. Um, well, there was a lot of of teasing of people who might have seemed, [00:12:00] um, less butch and manly than than others. Um, people who didn't engage in sporting activities was, like was really big on rowing and cricket and rugby. I mean, I played sport, and I really enjoyed playing sport. Um, but there were people who who didn't enjoy that so much. And, um, you know Oh, you're a fag. You're You're a sissy. You're You're queer or whatever. Um, just because you, [00:12:30] you know, enjoy reading books, or you, um you don't want to take part in the rugby game at lunchtime or whatever reason. And there was also running alongside that There was this kind of laten ho eroticism that, you know, the boys would quite enjoy kind of making fun of each other, but like, touching each other. And you know that, that sort of thing? Um, it's quite I mean, it was quite a strange environment because you were never [00:13:00] well, I, I felt like I was never, um, allowed to kind of. It was It was like something that you were expected to do to kind of be be, um, kind of touch other boys and be kind of matey hoo with people without it being gay because it couldn't be gay. It was That was bad. Yeah. It's quite interesting how those two things can coexist quite happily, as long as you don't say it. Yeah, absolutely. [00:13:30] So how and when did you tell your parents? Um, not for a long time, actually. Um, I. I mean, I sort of knew that they would be OK with it, obviously, but, um, I Yeah, I had quite a hard time. Just sort of, um, for a while, I sort of thought, you know, it's nobody else's business. Why should I tell them? It's not important. [00:14:00] Um, you know, I. I suppose I told them, you know, when I was about 20 or 21 and that seems really late but, um yeah, And I wish I told them earlier, but, um, but I didn't. And I guess I I was probably a bit selfish about it that I think I I thought that it was only about me and that it didn't affect anyone else. Um, yeah. Why do you wish you had told them earlier? Oh, just [00:14:30] because they probably would have been they they definitely would have been very, very supportive through, you know, through high school and stuff. And I felt like as soon as I started coming out to people that it was just an enormous relief, and I I felt like I could be myself. I didn't. I mean, it didn't change how I was, but, um, there was this kind of dread all through high school. You know? I'm gonna have to tell people. What [00:15:00] if someone finds out? What if I tell someone? Um, you know, and I went out with girls in high school and sort of had this kept up this facade of being a straight boy. Um, and the first person I told that I was gay was my current girlfriend, and she was actually really supportive about it. and we went to the ball together and, you know, as friends. And that was really lovely. But, um, there was this [00:15:30] incredible dread all through high school that that I, um I was so glad to kind of get rid of, um, once I left. How did your parents react? Um, they were just like, Oh, we knew, you know, we we knew. And why didn't you tell us earlier? Basically. And they were supportive, and yeah, that's fine. So in terms of language, you use around sexuality and gender What? How? How would you identify yourself? What kind of language would you use? I would say [00:16:00] I was gay. Yeah, that would be I don't think I would use any other identification. Really? I mean, I suppose you could, but I'm happy with gay. How do you think sexuality kind of impacts on the rest of your personality? I mean, is it is is sexuality a large part of who you are? Or is it something that's just just there in the corner somewhere? Um, I mean, I think I think it does. It is a big part of who I am. Um, [00:16:30] I'm not sure how exactly that manifests itself. But I think it's it's It's a thing that that is, anyone who's gay or, um queer in some kind of way thinks a lot about it. It's part of your psyche, part of your approach to life. I think there's no way of of kind of putting it in a compartment and saying, It's over there. It's just a label [00:17:00] I'm not, um I think, yeah, it it's It's an important part of of who I am and and creatively as well. I think it's definitely informed my practise as a composer, as a poet, and, um, I'm not sure. Yeah, like, as I say, I'm not sure how it how it manifests itself specifically, but it's it's part of. It's part of my heart, part of my brain, [00:17:30] part of my personality, I'm wondering. I mean, can you, I suppose, kind of refine it a bit more and say how it how it influences your creative work? Um, yeah, um, so I guess I in my creativity in my in my music specifically, I'm often dealing with, um emotions dealing with, um, ideas of intimacy [00:18:00] and distance or strangeness and familiarity. Things like that. Um uh, things that are familiar things. That other, um, the relationship between those, um, car and yeah, it it might not necessarily be a specific conceptual part, but I think it's always there. And, uh, my work is always informed by my emotions, [00:18:30] and my emotions are informed by my sexuality. And, um, and sometimes it does take a specific, um, conceptual form I. I wrote a piece, um, last year, as part of my residency with the National Youth Orchestra, um called Feel, which was a sort of piece about coming out as gay. And, um, that was really the most, um, overt, um, [00:19:00] creative statement that I've made about about my sexuality. I think you can see it, and you can hear it in in other works, too. But this was specifically a coming out piece. The programme note says, you know, says as much and the the trajectory of the piece moves from a kind of closed, um claustrophobic sort of dreadful, um, introversion to something quite open [00:19:30] and, um, hopeful. What was the response to that piece? Um, yeah, that's interesting, actually, because no one, I think one person, one person talked to me about it in terms of its, uh, conceptual content. And no one else, um, mentioned the fact that it was Yeah, it's often the case, actually, with with music [00:20:00] with concert music, people don't discuss it. They just say, Oh, that was a nice piece. Well done, or oh, I like that bit. Or and even even, you know, people that, um, whose opinions you respect and who are themselves composers even, um, often feel like they can't tell you what they really think about something. Um, and and in this particular case, I don't think [00:20:30] there was Well, not that that got back to me. Anyway. There was necessarily an engagement with the the subject matter of the piece, which I I was I was a bit disappointed about, But, um, it was in Christchurch. So, um, and may be performed in Auckland and might have a completely different, um, audience reaction. I mean, they seem to they seem to like the piece, but, um, yeah, it's hard to know. It's hard to know what the response was. Really. [00:21:00] What about the response from the youth orchestra? Um, they really enjoyed playing it, but again, I provided a programme note with their music and, um, you know, sort of two pages of this is what the piece is about. This is the background to it. There was a poem that went along with it. John Ashbury poem. Who's a, um, American gay poet. Still alive? Probably the most important, um, living American living poet. Probably. Um, [00:21:30] and no one from the orchestra actually talked to me about the piece from a From the perspective of this is the gay piece. This is Alex talking about or trying to articulate, trying to share his emotions about being gay. Um, and as much as I enjoyed the process of working with the youth orchestra and making the music happen and [00:22:00] refining it technically and all that I was left a bit, um, said that there there wasn't or people that didn't at least feel comfortable talking to me about that element of it. Um, and the one person who who did talk to me about it was actually from the youth choir. Um, I wrote the piece for the orchestra, and in the same programme of music, the youth [00:22:30] orchestra was performing with the New Zealand Youth Choir. And so this, um, this man who, um, talked to me about it. He was not performing in the work, and he didn't. Actually, um, he didn't I think he did. Maybe he did hear the work and performance, but, um, yeah, he he was the only person he was. He was, um, a bisexual guy. And he was the only person who brought it up that, you know, you know, good on you for writing this piece. [00:23:00] Um, it's really interesting. Blah, blah, blah, I. I mean, I can't remember exactly what his response was, but I do remember that I was I was struck that there was one person who who talked to me about it. When you look in the wider context of New Zealand, I mean, are there many gay lesbian transgender pieces that have been written for, say, for orchestra or or, um, there are quite [00:23:30] a number of queer composers in New Zealand, but I think for many of them, it's not an overt subject in their music. Um, there are some pieces that have, um, overtly gay content or, um, Jack Body has written a number of pieces that, um um his love. So to Michelangelo and and other other [00:24:00] pieces. Um, and Lockwood is also, um, a composer who has dealt with that specifically, Um, but I think many composers in New Zealand have preferred not to deal with it overtly in their music. Not sure why they are I. I can I can understand why that is. And I think it's, um [00:24:30] often composers don't want to attach a specific meaning to a work. They don't want to tell the audience what to feel or what to think. They want their music to speak for itself and for the audience, then to interact with it and derive their own meaning. But for me, this was an important piece to write, and people could. Still, I felt like I'd [00:25:00] left enough room for people to interact with with it that I could still, um, deal with these things and talk about dealing with these things and say so in the programme. Not so when you're kind of referencing Jack and, um an I mean, how do you know about these people? Kind of being gay. I mean, is it taught at university in terms of these, uh, gay composers or how how do you How do you find out about? [00:25:30] I don't think it was taught at university, particularly there weren't courses about sexual, um, issues in music like there was, say, in English or in history. You know, you could do a paper of sexual histories, or you could study. Um, you know, gay writers in the English department. I don't think that was ever an option in music. I think, um, that's a real shame. Um, but I and as part of my honours, um, did [00:26:00] a lot of research on on New Zealand composers. I did a a topic, um, New Zealand music with Eve, who was my Eve de Castro Robinson, who was my supervisor? Um, and one of my special topics was, um, the music of an Lockwood. Um, and so I researched her music. Um, another, another essay that I wrote. This part of that paper was on protest music, and an aspect of that was the, um, homosexual law reform movement. And [00:26:30] I was interested in, um, any kind of, um, both, um, gay protest music, but also feminist stuff. And, um, anything related to that? So, I, I guess I did my own research. Um, Also word of mouth um, it's quite a small community, the composing community. And every year there's the Nelson Composer workshop. Um, you you you learn things from older composers. People [00:27:00] share stories. Um, some people are quite open about their sexuality, and you find out about other people by word of mouth. Um and, yeah, I I I think it would be nice for it to be for it to be taught, but there are always, um, issues around whether people want to be known as a gay composer, whether they are out, but also whether they want their music [00:27:30] to be, um, heard as gay. Hm. And in your situation, I mean, do you want to be known as a gay composer? I'm happy to be known as a gay composer. Yeah, um, I think it's it's a big part of my music, but all other things are also a big part of my music. I think it informs my music just like my personality informs my music. And, um, my taste and other things. Um, [00:28:00] yeah, I have no problem with with being being labelled as a gay composer. Do you think that label in some way would would box you in to you know that they say, Oh, well, you know, Alex does this type of thing, and it's specifically, like for a gay audience. Or I don't think you could I don't think my music III. I don't think you could box it in. I don't see how how it would work. Um, I mean, the most [00:28:30] obvious example of um, uh, an out gay composer in New Zealand is Gareth Far in terms of, um, having, um a a very kind of flamboyant drag persona, Little of the choir, um, and being very open about his sexuality. But I don't think he's seen as Gareth, the gay composer. I think, um, his music is respected on its own merits, which I would hope that mine is [00:29:00] too. In your research. Did you come up with any surprises? I mean, with the people in your research that you thought Oh, gosh, I I had no idea. And and then you saw their music in a different way. Um, yeah, that's interesting. There were There were people that I hadn't, um, come across necessarily as composers who had written a little bit of music specifically about gay issues. People like William Dart, who wrote [00:29:30] a couple of musicals. Um, I mean, Williams, well known as a gay person. Um, but not as well known as a composer. And, um, I. I, um, found out about his, um, his musicals give me a kiss and, um, songs to the judges. I think the other one is Give me a kiss is a is a specifically, um, gay musical and other people, um, as well, but, um, William is a good example of that. Um, there are also, um, gay [00:30:00] composers who who aren't, um, necessarily out and who, perhaps don't, you know, don't want their music to be, um, to be labelled that way or for them personally to be labelled that way. Earlier this year, you were part of a concert as part of the Auckland Pride Festival. Can you tell me about that? Um, so Samuel Holloway, um, a good friend of mine and, uh, an Auckland composer was asked to create a create, but [00:30:30] also curate, um, a concert of, um, of queer composers. Um, so he brought together music by, um, Jack Bo and Lockwood. Gareth Farr, John Elms, David Hamilton, Claire Cohen. Um, a number of other composers, which I probably won't be able to remember everyone. And, um, at the music Theatre at the Auckland University. And it It's probably the first time that I'm aware of, certainly, in recent years [00:31:00] that, um, a programme of gay music has been put together. Um, perhaps in the eighties there was there are a few things like that, but, um, yeah, it was It was quite an exciting event, Really. I was I was really excited to be part of it. The the the title of that concert was after bu, um, referencing Douglas bu. Tell me about that. Because Douglas, I mean, uh, we [00:31:30] think he might have had, you know, kind of gay relationships, but he also had, um, relationships with people like Rita Angus. Yeah. Um, I I think it's generally accepted that Douglas Auburn was gay. Um, whether he labelled himself that way, um, he didn't you know, he he wasn't out as a gay man, but, um, I think it was a provocative and [00:32:00] I think it was an appropriate way to title the concert. So you are comfortable with, um, somebody That's not necessarily out being used as as the kind of title of a gay concert. Um, I think there's been so much discussion of Lilburn, and he's so pivotal to, um to the whole genesis of New Zealand [00:32:30] music that, um, it would be foolish to ignore that aspect of his music and his life. Um, and to to say that we should ignore his sexuality and only look at him as a normative, uh, composer is, I think [00:33:00] it's It's the wrong approach. I think it it's good to discuss little as as a gay man, I think Samuel commented, uh, in a news article about how, even in Philip Norman's biography of Douglas that there is very little about the kind of homosexual aspect of of him. Do you have any kind of thoughts on that? Um, I think it's something that people are quite reluctant to discuss. I think there's been some conflict between New [00:33:30] Zealand composers in the past about it. Um, it's also difficult because, um, he's not alive anymore, and, um, it's difficult to know how he would feel about about it. But the discussion is already out there. And, um, to push it away and not include it is, um I think a bit childish when you [00:34:00] listen to Lil Worns music. I mean, can you hear a gayness in that or or some kind of reference to his homosexuality? Um, I think it's like I said earlier. It's difficult to know how um, a particular person's sexuality will manifest itself in a work of art. But having said that, I, I think, um, I think you can hear, Um, certainly in, um, some of his chamber music. There's a sort of, [00:34:30] um, intimacy and, um, sort of restlessness. Um, I don't I mean, I don't It's difficult to sort of psychoanalyse his music. Um, but I think generally he was more concerned with, um constructing a sort of New Zealand identity than perhaps dealing with his own, um, emotions. So often in his big orchestral pieces, you get, um, a very, [00:35:00] um, outside a very constructed, um facade of music that I think sometimes, um, you know, subsumes his his own kind of, um, emotions. But at the same time, there's also a sort of, um, restraint and a sense of repression in his music that I think maybe correlates to his struggle with his sexuality. Um, [00:35:30] I think you you you. You listen to any of his symphonies. Um, his three symphonies. And there's kind of this reluctance and reticence that he's not quite He's not quite able to express express himself. Frankly, um, which I mean, yeah, as I say, it's difficult to to translate music to, um, into words or to psychoanalyse [00:36:00] it. But, um, yeah, I think there are elements of it there. Another way of looking at it is as a gay man listening to his music. Does it alter how you perceive his music knowing that he was he was gay? Um, I found myself listening for for these elements, like or or finding these elements in in his music. This sort of, um uh, repressed or closeted, [00:36:30] um, element, which maybe I wasn't so aware of before before I knew that he was a gay composer. Um, I mean, I've always enjoyed Li burns music, but, um, it does have this element of not quite fulfilling its, um potential. Yeah, So you were quite happy to be part of this this queer concert? Were you aware of other out [00:37:00] composers that actually didn't want to be a part of this because it was going to be a specifically gay event. Um, Samuel did tell me about, um, one person in particular who didn't want to be a part of the concert, and I There may be others as well. Um, I'm not sure if, um, even if everyone, uh, it may may whether it was possible to include everyone who perhaps might have wanted to be included. [00:37:30] Um, but I Yeah, I do know that there was at least one person who who was asked and and didn't didn't want to be included as a composer. Can you actually withhold the right of performance? So, like, if somebody says I'm setting up a gay lesbian concert and I want to use your work, do you have any say as to actually, whether that work gets performed or not? Um, in theory, no, but in practise, the [00:38:00] the community is so small, and the everyone knows each other the relationships. Um, it's difficult to do that without burning a bridge. Or, um, you would have a difficult time, I think trying to out someone, um, in a concert like that, not, you know, overtly, but using the music without their permission. I think that would be quite difficult. Yeah. Why [00:38:30] do you think it's important to have, um, a concert that's specifically labelled as this is A You know, these are gay composers. Um, well, I just I think it's interesting to to kind of hear the different approaches that well, firstly, from a perspective of a gay audience, which is what this was aimed at primarily as part of the Pride Festival to to be exposed to the history of, um, and the breadth of of New Zealand music from from gay composers. I think that's really important. [00:39:00] But also just from a general, um, music, um, perspective. I think I think it's it's important just to, um, to have another way of of listening to the music, um, to find, you know, we were always listening for different, um, things that we can, um, engage with and things that we can tune into in in pieces of music. And if you've got, um, [00:39:30] this, you know, sexuality thread is one is one thing that you can, um, that an audience member can perhaps, um, relate to or, um, it can provoke some kind of response. Tell me about the audience that attended the concert. I mean, what what kind of audience was it? Um, it was really It was really nice to see a a Really, Um the audience was AAA mixture of, um the typical [00:40:00] concert going music lover. Um, and a lot of the gay community as well. Um, who whom you wouldn't normally perhaps see at a classical music event, which not classical music. A contemporary classical music event. Um, so, yeah, there was a really nice blend there. And, um, I think the vibe of the concert was was wonderful. Everyone, um really, [00:40:30] um all the performers and composers and audience, I think really embodied the whole spirit of the concert, which was quite heartfelt and quite, um, quite lovely. Yeah, it's interesting because a couple of weeks after the festival, we had Jack Bo's songss of dancers and Desire come and Repe, And that was part of the Auckland Arts Festival. And I went along to that and it was quite a different audience. It was quite a It was like a quite a standard, [00:41:00] a PAPO audience. Can you compare the two audiences? Because I, I found the car audience almost disconnected from you know what was going on. And I think that is perhaps also related to the size of the venue. Um, the music Theatre is quite an intimate space, and it was pretty much full well, two thirds of it of one. The other third is not normally used, but, um, there was a connection between the the performance [00:41:30] and audience in that concert, which is quite, I think it's quite a rare thing, actually. Um, there, uh, it's more common than chamber music. But then the the the Jack Body concert Big venue, town hall, Um, you know, audience quite a long way away from from the performers and also the audience. Perhaps not knowing what to expect. Not being familiar with Jack Bo's work [00:42:00] not being, um, necessarily, um, comfortable, uh, throughout all of the concert. I mean, I think there were moments in that concert which made everyone uncomfortable at the various points. And I think that was part of the point of the concert was to be provocative and, um, engaging and challenging. Um, but I, I think Yeah, that the the standard orchestral concert goer is not necessarily, um, [00:42:30] going to experience or intend to experience music the same way that someone who goes to a contemporary classical gay concert is wanting to, you know, they they they're wanting to have different experiences. Really. The the music lover, the the standard repertory orchestral music lover goes perhaps as, um um, a lovely night out to enjoy the music washing over them. And, um, it's [00:43:00] perhaps slightly nostalgic. Perhaps there's, um, you know, perhaps mainly, it's it's entertainment. But there's with Jack's piece and also with, um after Lilburn, there's there's another element which is, um, art as something challenging, provocative, um, something not comfortable. And the subject matter also is something that, for a mainstream audience is not hardly ever talked about [00:43:30] except in context like that. Um, so is, um, by definition, uncomfortable. Do you feel that things like, say, that coming out piece that you did for the youth orchestra that would be sidelined into oh, well, that's a gay piece. So it's really only for a gay audience. Would that ever get into a mainstream programme? I don't know, I hope so. It's only ever been performed once, um, it is being recorded later this year by the NZSO for their, um, [00:44:00] their collaborative, um, radio New Zealand sounds NZSO readings. Um, so I'll get a good recording out of that. I don't know whether it will be programmed again. It was written for a specific orchestra. Youth orchestra. Um, I would hope that it that it would be picked up. Um, I think I would hope that, um, it wouldn't be seen as, um I hope the gay content. [00:44:30] It's the the the music itself is just music. But, um, I hope that the fact that it's the subject matter is is a coming out piece. Wouldn't, um, preclude it from being programmed again. Yeah, but that depends on people's, um, prejudices. And, um and what else is in the programme? I mean, yeah, it's it's a matter of taste. You might also find that, actually, the reverse happens. And that because it is like a coming [00:45:00] out piece that actually is programmed, you know, over over many times. So, yeah. What did you take out of out of the after little concert? How how did you feel about it? Um, but as I said I was I was really happy to be involved, but also I felt really good about the the whole feeling of the concert. It was very collegial. And, um, all the composers who were there who had their music played were very, um, grateful [00:45:30] for the for the opportunity to to have, um, pieces of theirs played, which, perhaps are not normally programmed. Um, I one particular composer, um, I remember John Elmley coming down to to have a bow, and he was just so happy, you know, he was, um he hugged Mark Menzies. Who was the violinist? The violist, actually, Who who played, um, his solo piece. Um, which referenced li actually, um, John's piece. [00:46:00] And John was just so absolutely thrilled to, um to be involved in for his music to be played and and, um, the whole the whole context. The whole vibe of the concert was was very lovely. So after the concert, how was it kind of received in terms of kind of critical thought? Um, well, as well as the sort of, um, the general buzz of of the concert at at the time itself. I think there was [00:46:30] there was a feeling from some people that maybe the concert could have, um it could have been other things. Um, that perhaps it wasn't really apart from one or two pieces which were overtly gay works that it wasn't really a gay concert. Um, the programme consisted of works by gay composers, but I think they were probably one, maybe two, that were really certainly Jack's work. [00:47:00] Jack Bo's work, um was, you know, had, uh, was settings of of an overtly gay text. Um, but most of the other pieces didn't have any, um, reference to sexuality. Um, and so that that was one criticism that it it didn't kind of embody the whole, um the the the queer thing. And it it it could have. There are other pieces that could have been programmed that would [00:47:30] have been more political in that sense. Um, So Anna Lockwood has written a number of, um, pieces that are more concerned with, um, sexuality. Um, um, other other composers. I mean, I've written other pieces that would perhaps have been better suited to the gay theme, but there were also constraints in terms of performance and, um, just general programming issues that Samuel had to juggle. So, um yeah, there was another. Another [00:48:00] criticism that someone, uh said told me was that it was too serious. And it was all too, um, very academic and serious And, um, that not not enough fun, You know that? That you might think going to a gay concert that you like. Perhaps Jack's concert had moments of very high camp. We didn't get any of that we had, um, you know, one or two brief interludes that were slightly light. Um, Claire's piece was lovely and rhythmic and fun, but [00:48:30] there was no real camp, which you might expect in a gay context. And, um so those are two quite, um, contradictory criticisms. Really? Um, and I, I think from my perspective, the concert juggled, um, all of those things quite well, but, um, yeah, those are some of the criticisms. And it seems to me that those kind of criticisms point to the fact that that that there's a real hunger for people [00:49:00] wanting to hear maybe gay composers or gay themed works Or, you know, they wouldn't be criticising unless they felt passionate about wanting to see something. Yeah, I agree. I think there is, um, there's a lack of kind of discourse. And there's a lack of, um well, I I there are a few gay works and things, but, um, it's I think it was hard for Samuel to actually put a programme together, Um, in terms [00:49:30] of, um, fulfilling that, um, sort of political, um, element that some people felt was, was needed. Um, but yeah, it it's it's great that the concert was put on because that sort of started a discourse around, um, gay music. And that will lead, I hope to other concerts of gay music and other kind of, um, avenues of investigation. One of the things we haven't talked [00:50:00] about, um but is just kind of inherent in a lot of the stuff that you're doing is the the idea of visibility of actually, you know, putting yourself out there as a as a gay man as a gay composer. Tell me, why is it important to be visible? Um, I guess, to to encourage? Well, just from a personal perspective, it's it's part of it's part of who I am. It's something I'm proud [00:50:30] of. It's something that I, um I've said has you know, that I think relates to my music and is part of my creativity. Um, but also, um, I think it's important to be out just to encourage other people who are struggling with with those issues to be out as well. And, um, yeah, I mean, there are There are a lot of, um there are a lot of gay composers. Um, and it would [00:51:00] be, um I think it would be nice sometimes if if we talked a bit more about that aspect of our, um of our creativity.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089530
TITLE: Emma and John Kelly
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Emma-Jean Kelly; John Kelly
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1950s; 2010s; 95bFM; Anne Speir; Aotearoa New Zealand; Aquarius Club; Auckland; Australia; Big Gay Out (Auckland); Emma-Jean Kelly; Fifth Season Garden Group; Frankie Hill; Girls Own Show (95bFM); Hero (Auckland); In the Pink (95bFM); John Kelly; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); North Shore; Oscar Wilde; Pride; Pride parade; Sydney; Welby Ings; children; civil unions; coming out; divorce; family; feminism; friends; gardening; gay; heterosexual; homosexual; language; lesbian; mainstreaming; marriage; marriage equality; naturist magazines; older age; oral history; parents; public display of affection (PDA); relationships; research; saunas; values
DATE: 17 March 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Emma and John talk about their daughter / father relationship.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is John Kelly. Um, I was married for probably 15 years. We had three daughters, one of whom is in the room with me today. She's the youngest of three. Marriage broke up many years ago, and I brought up the Children on my own without without being involved in any other in any other women. John, when you were growing up, did you have any sense of your homosexuality? [00:00:30] Yes. I, I think when I was 13 or 14, I I presumed I was gay without knowing what the term was. Yes. My mother want some food? She found some. I think they were nudist magazines, which is all available many years ago under the mattress. Why? I hid them under the mattress. I'm not quite sure. Mothers in those days used to turn mattresses over once a week. All she did was place them on the pillow. So nothing was ever said to me by my parents. [00:01:00] When did you first have words to describe kind of what you were feeling? I It's interesting. I don't I don't know. Um I knew I knew what I was and what I wanted from a from that age. from 13 14 or whatever it was. You didn't articulate those those days. I didn't just It was just just the way life was when you go on with it. [00:01:30] Did anybody did anybody have conversations about being gay or make comments about gay people in any way? Was that word used then? No, I don't I don't think so. I was working in a in a department store in Wellington and I got seduced, I suppose, of the term by two guys who were working there. One of them we used to see from the double decker tram on the way to college. [00:02:00] And because he was a bit flamboyant, well, he had an umbrella which men didn't carry in those days. And there was a few cat courts on the top of the the tram, which I kept quiet. Well, of course, that's the only thing that happened then. So people are identifying other people as different in some way, or boys were. So I'm Emma and I'm the youngest of dad's Children, [00:02:30] and Dad raised us here on the North Shore, and I, my sister, Patria and I used to always joke that Dad was the only good heterosexual man. We knew he could sew. He cooked. He talked to us about periods and all those things. You know, he he was both mother and father to us. And, um, we just always thought he was a great example of what a heterosexual [00:03:00] man could be. Yeah. And then and then what do you want to talk about? Oh, well, something I was thinking about since we were going to do this interview is how When I started university at about 17, I started hanging out at women's space. Do you remember? Nearly all my friends are lesbians, and I used to have all these amazing discussions with them about relationships and feminism, and [00:03:30] I used to say, I can still be a feminist and be with a man. But I also had relationships with women at that time, and we used to talk about that. Do you remember? Do you remember I told you about walking down the street, holding hands with Sally and getting hassled, and I came home, and I was just astounded because I walked down the road holding hands with men all the time and no one had ever seen a thing and suddenly it was different and I was so naive. I [00:04:00] was on K Road. Why would anyone hassle us? And I remember coming home and being outraged and, you know, talking to you. And we talked quite a lot about sexuality at that time. I can't remember specifically, but one of the women you worked with was at Rea's house When I brought Graham round this this man was a became my partner, fairly flamboyant, and I realised in the very early stages that there was no way this relationship was going to be [00:04:30] hidden. And in fact, your friend made a comment after we left. She said, Is your dad gay? And I said, It looks like it and that was the end of the conversation and she was very excited because she was an adamant lesbian. There must have been an interesting discussion after we left then because was there. Sally didn't say it in front of Patria, but Patria and I definitely had conversations afterwards. Dad's got a boyfriend. [00:05:00] What's going on? Isn't this exciting? I can't remember specifically saying anything to you guys, but I must have done presumably. Do you want me to tell the story of you coming out to me when I was working in the fairy shop in Birkenhead in High Point in the fairy shop and you came in and it must have been a few days after we'd met Graham. And you said, um, I'm just here to tell you I'm a fairy because we're in the fairy shop. [00:05:30] And then you kicked up your heel in a joking manner and you walked out and I couldn't even follow you because I was working. And I just thought it was lovely. And I was terribly happy that you came out. I just thought that was the best thing ever. Yes, Patria was quite nice, too. Not everybody in the family was. But that didn't last very long. Well, I don't remember the very sharp story. And what about friends? There was no [00:06:00] problem there at all. I told people, um, and no hassle. I didn't lose any friends over it. Chris, in fact, was, um he was annoyed because I'd been hiding it from him all these years. But he was He was great. Yes. And Chris is, uh, one of our Well, he was one of dad's best friends. He died last year. Yeah, but you and he used to have funny conversations, didn't [00:06:30] you? Because of words like straight and, well, he he used to object to the word straight because it implied that the we we guys were bent. I pointed out that it was wasn't his choice. It was our our our way of putting it. So we'd have to put up a with you calling him straight? Well, yes. Yeah, I'd introduce him as my straight mate. I wouldn't mind, [00:07:00] Sean just going back a wee bit. Why? Why did you get married? Um, it was it was the right thing to do. At that time. It was the woman I wanted to get married to. I'd say it's a lovely thing. I couldn't have done it if I had known what I would have done otherwise, I wouldn't have had Children, of course. But it it was, um I didn't have any parental pressure. In fact, um, I proposed to my wife and we [00:07:30] got married the following Friday, and I almost forgot to tell my parents because it was just the thing we were doing. And you know, that whole marriage marriage thing was was far beyond me at that time. I wouldn't. Wasn't interested in that at all. What do you mean? You mean like having a big ceremony and having other family involved just didn't occur to you that you wanted to do anything like that? You just hands on someone. And you were You were [00:08:00] part of the same friendship circle. How did you meet? How do we meet? We met at the Oh, gosh. We met at a a gay party, actually. Oddly enough, we had mutual mutual friends. Wasn't at the end of six o'clock closing. It wasn't a party the day at the end of me than me. Yes. A group of us had been to the Great Northern Hotel to celebrate six o'clock raising. We went to a party afterwards, [00:08:30] was there And that's how you met? Yes, And it was love at first sight. Yeah, no, it was eased into, I think. And some of your mutual friends have stayed your mutual friends for the rest of your lives, haven't they? Even beyond the end of the marriage and yeah. No, I didn't lose any friends through either through marriage or through, um, the end of marriage? No. [00:09:00] When you were married, did you find that you were hiding your homosexuality? Or was it just kind of out in the open? No, it was hidden It totally hidden. The one I was married. Um, Joan knew I was gay when I was married because I told her before we were married. But like all woman, she thought she'd kill me. I think Can you describe what that's like, Kind of living, that [00:09:30] it's not really a double life, but actually outwardly being kind of heterosexual and and being homosexual at the same time? Well, it it wasn't difficult because you couldn't do anything about it. There was no, there's no way. When I was younger, you could you could that I could say that I was homosexual. It was illegal. Immoral wasn't happening at the time. Um, [00:10:00] you're not stoic about it, but you just live your life. Your life was what it was. That side of it was there. This side was here, and that's what you did because you had no choice. It wasn't difficult to do because you did it. You've always one of the things I've always thought about. You Is that you? You you You've made quite strong statements about you. Just get on with what you've [00:10:30] got. You don't regret and you don't live in the past and you just get on with it. Is that part of it for you? It just This is what I got. This is the hand I've been dealt, and I'll just get on with it. And even though I didn't know where that sort of thinking was coming from, I always found it quite helpful to to think What's the point in regretting anything? Or but did you have friends who are sort of more out than you at that time? Well, you met all my friends, [00:11:00] people like Gordon and Ray. So people who never married they were my friends before I was married. And they were friends during my marriage and they were still friends. And no one ever gave you her time. No, not ever. No. And And people like Ryan Gordon always seem to enjoy having us kids around. And they they always gave us Christmas cards and birthday cards. And you call them uncle, I think, [00:11:30] and they were just sort of part of the broader family. Yes. So I was probably lucky to have any friends like that, I guess. I think so. And and I didn't know they were gay when I was younger. They were just, you know, I wouldn't have cared if I knew they were just Uncle Ray and Uncle Warden who turned up for birthday parties and sent us cards at Christmas time. So why do you think there was a need to come out later on to Emma? I mean, [00:12:00] if if you were kind of, um Well, I think I thought I I thought I was explaining that before, with with the the friend I had, Then I had he was He was quite flamboyant, obviously gay. And if I was walking down somewhere with him, it would be fairly obvious. I would imagine that we would have been a couple. So I thought there was no point in this. And my thinking about him was that, um there was no point in me being embarrassed [00:12:30] by him because that's the way he was. So I wasn't gonna hide it any any further, and we'd all moved out of home by then. And was that part of your thinking that you didn't have to protect us from judgments. No, probably not again. It's just just what? You're what you're doing at the time. I don't think I thought of that. Did the North Shore feel like a place where people were out to [00:13:00] you? Did you know many gay people on the north Shore? I don't think I know any. Didn't know any? No. Do you find it's hard to talk about kind of gay issues or homosexuality? No details? Yes, in front of my Children. Yes, but other other. Otherwise no, not at all. So it depends. It depends on context then, doesn't it? It depends on who you who You're with what you're saying, What you're not because something that struck [00:13:30] me and you can tell me that I'm wrong is that, um you are more relaxed about talking about gay things on the South Shore than the North Shore. Oh, why is that? Because that's where all the events are. The events aren't here. Your mates aren't here. No need no need to talk about such things over here. In that case, it always seems to me like it. It's a bit different here because I've always I've always felt this is quite a repressive community. No, I don't think that at [00:14:00] all that interesting. I suppose everyone I know lives over the shore over the other side of the bridge. Yeah, that's right. Apart from Chris, Impressive on that one. well, I've always felt the North Shore was quite conservative. Um, and it feels when I'm down here like I'm in a kind of little country town where everyone knows each other's business. Maybe you just feel that way about where you grow up. So, John, can you tell me about raising Children by yourself [00:14:30] and the kind of values you try to impart? We probably should ask Emma that what her values are would be easier. But, um, the fact that girls was was interesting for a start because I'm not a girl, and I had to deal with with with females and female things, I don't know what values I imparted. I think that I I tried to make them honest, to be honest, [00:15:00] trying to teach them to be gardens and cooks. I'm not sure I work with all them. Um, see, I obviously don't Don't don't compartmentalise things. I just as as we've said before, I get on and do things without saying this is this is what I'm doing. This is what I'm going to make my try and make my my daughters do. So it's a bit hard to for me to answer that question. Another way of looking at it would be to say, What [00:15:30] are the values that you admire and other people? What are the things that ah, I think honesty is always the is is always the main thing. Um, what do you like caring for caring for people? Um, not not not not dumping on others. Um, what are you gonna say? We're gonna have So I was just gonna say, is there anything about me that you [00:16:00] that you admire? That might have been something to do with how I was raised? Do you think I don't know? You're the one academic of the family. Must have come for me somewhere. Mhm. No, no. I. I was thinking about, um when things would happen. Say at school, say I'd get a hard time at school. I remember sometimes the boys would [00:16:30] hassle me at school and I'd come home and I'd burst into tears and you'd always give me a cuddle, And you'd always make me feel better. And then you say, OK, what are you going to say? Back to them and we'd sort something out and it would be something silly. It'll be some, you know, kind of line. But what you did was make me feel that I was OK. And then that I could speak back, not walk away, not pretend it wasn't happening. But speak back. And I think that's been helpful to me. But I think sometimes I probably [00:17:00] have done it a little too much. But I always felt that you encouraged us to to speak our minds. And it's important when you're a girl because you can easily get sucked into thinking you have to be passive. I never got that impression from you. No, um, you said you weren't weren't none of you? None of you are passive. Um, do you? Do you remember, [00:17:30] um, telling me a story about going into farmers when they had a sale as a father? Um, yes, I do. Yeah, that was fairly early in the well, I. I had to do things like because I didn't have a lot of money I had to learn to sow. And there was an occasion when all my girls ran out of knickers. So I farmers had to say when farmers was up on Hobson Street, they had a big, big building there. So I went in there [00:18:00] thinking I could discreetly ask a salesperson for some pairs of panties for my Children. But instead of that, there's a huge bins with all these women scrabbling in their life, stood there and thought they're gonna think I'm the worst pervert here. However, I thought, maybe this I've got to do it. So I dived in with all these women and picked out all the the nickers I wanted, and I sort of thought I never looked back since then, and I could do anything that [00:18:30] was was slightly odd concerning my daughters. So there you go. It was probably a turning point. The incident that was the turning point in your life. And the other thing I'm thinking about about values is how we had an open house at road. So Friday nights everyone turned up at our house. It was beautifully sight of that house because people you know, friends [00:19:00] would drive past it. And yes, we did. It was nice People would call in in passing. Just doesn't seem to happen a lot these days. You never know who'd be there, but it would always be you'd. And if it was winter, you had the fire on and we'd have toast in front of the fire. And I remember other people commenting on how lovely it was and how unusual it was to just turn up at someone's house. And they feed you and sit down for an hour, chat [00:19:30] and come around on Friday nights for a glass of wine. And one of them would invariably fall asleep in front of the fire. And the other one will keep chatting. Yeah, and those are lovely memories for me. We had some interesting birthdays, too, didn't we? The pink table cloth. I can't remember the pink and we had. Was it one of your birthdays [00:20:00] up at Snell's Beach? We We We were given access to a batch up there. It was a rainy day on Emma's birthday, and we piled into the little rowing boat with a birthday cake, candles and umbrella. Yeah, rode out on the bay and sang Happy birthday and do the candles out. We did lots of lovely and unusual memories like that. Yeah, I never felt like we were, like, the other families, [00:20:30] and I never had a problem with it. It was always a good thing. Well, I, I think I don't know whether all men have have a female side. I'm not sure I must have had one to be able to cope with bringing up the pears. Even if it didn't show. It must have been there. Why is it a female side? The natural side? Yeah, Quite warm. And hm? I hope all men have it, But I'm not sure that all men feel they're able to express [00:21:00] it. Yeah. Did you have any relationships throughout Once the marriage had ended? Did you have any relationships up until you kind of came out? Yes. Um, you're willing to talk about in front of me? I block my ears. Well, no, no, because they they were with women. Anyway, as you as you may record them. Um, [00:21:30] was it was that Was that what your question was asking? Well, with them in all of them. Not not any I had. I had I had an affair. I had two affairs. I suppose that's the way you put it with with women? Yes. And if if anything occurred with me and it obviously hasn't stuck in my mind, so they wouldn't they certainly wouldn't be regarded as a fears. No, you don't have to answer this question, but I want to ask because I know when the saunas and [00:22:00] things opened. I mean, did you visit places like that or do you not want to say I was OK? But after you're married after, uh, yes. And with their with their magazines and things. You mentioned the nudist magazine from when you were a kid. I've never heard about nudist magazines before. Were they like, Oh, they were natural naturist magazines. I think I can remember Lynn. Hi. When? When we still married, um, she came around with her husband and we had Joan [00:22:30] and I had a couple of these magazines and Lynn looked through them and her eyes got bigger and bigger. And she said to her husband, You told me that once you've seen one, you'd seen them all. But that's not true. That's great. When did when did out Magazine start? Do you know I have no idea. Um, no, I don't I. I wouldn't know what year it started. It's been around for a long time, but you'd seen magazines and you knew they were around [00:23:00] magazines. I must have done this. Yes. Did you find the people you were meeting in Saunas? Um, were coming from some of the backgrounds like that. They had been married or were currently married. Well, you're talking about recently now. Not not. You know, this is this is not not not Not way back. There are a lot of married people. And so yes, Still married, as far as I can tell you. Do you talk about it? [00:23:30] Do you know, because of rings, or how do you know? Would you just know? I suppose it must must be discussed somewhere along the line. Do you reckon the climate has changed considerably in terms of, um, acceptance? People, over time, you've only got to go past or or in one of the family bar or something like that up in road and half [00:24:00] the people in there are straight anyway, So it was a good mixture these days, which is a lovely thing. I think. I'm sure there are exclusive gay places besides saunas that guys can go to. But, um, I don't is one of them, isn't it? But it's a good mix these days. Was Was all the family accepted? Yes, my my brother in Sydney has no problem [00:24:30] with it. I don't know about my sister in South Africa, because she knows we've never discussed it. I don't know, but in Australia and no, no problem, I I've been I've been very lucky that no one no one has hassled me. No one has given me any hard time, and no friends have left because of it, either. Looking in from your perspective, Emma, when Dad comes into the shop and kind of comes out, how how do you feel? [00:25:00] Well, I was really excited, you know, as I've said, I was hanging out at women's space a lot at that time and, um, having a lot of conversations with people about being gay, being straight, being feminist, being not feminist and all these things. And so I just thought it was I thought it was pretty cool. I thought, Oh, my dad's not a conservative heterosexual man from the North Shore after all. But, you know, I was 21 and I don't I guess my where I was was [00:25:30] quite a different place, and it just didn't seem to be a big deal. Of course, my friends thought it was great. And my friends who wondered if I was a lesbian, I think probably thought, Oh, well, maybe it runs in the family. I don't know, but yeah, it was never It was never a thing for me. And I think it was I think it was my first time to see Dad, as is a separate person, not just my dad, but a human who had a life beyond the looking after of me. Yeah, I think [00:26:00] that was a big part. And it was so exciting to see Dad in a relationship because I hadn't seen you in a relationship either. So for me, that was cool, too. Yeah, And even though that relationship didn't, you know, didn't work out, Um, he was a good talker. And so we would have conversations that we hadn't had before. And you guys, you know, went off and did your thing and I thought it was exciting. [00:26:30] My other daughter was pleased for various reasons because she eventually came out herself and she was able to do that because I had. Well, I'm not quite sure whether she she had known she was gay when I did, whether that came later, where she was supportive because she was. Yeah, my memory is when she [00:27:00] was younger, she tried to talk about it being gay, and we sort of shut the conversation down. That's her memory, too, of saying when she was younger. I'm gay and they're saying, No, you're not in something silly like that And that was the end of the conversation. So there was a bit of Oh, Dad's been gay all this time. He didn't talk about it with me, but then she got over it. I mean, you guys, you've always said that you two were quite similar and they used to rub each other in the up in the wrong way. But But now you guys get along very well. [00:27:30] It's been interesting to see your relationship change, too. Over time. I don't see you as similar, but you've always said some things about who were similar to you. Interesting, but, um, she used to say when she was little, she used to say, when I grew up to be a man and used to think of just just something that kids say And now she's a mechanic. No, she's [00:28:00] not. She's a welder. We get it right. So, John, how did you feel when you know your daughter was coming out? I mean, did you expect your Children potentially to be gay or lesbian? No, not in the slightest. I was. I was surprised I was a bit unhappy for her, actually, because of that, Uh, it doesn't necessarily an easy road to go [00:28:30] down, but I guess that didn't last long. But she's She's quite content with herself now, So it's nice. I remember her saying that when she initially said at 14 she thought she was gay. She remembers you saying, It's too hard, But I don't even remember her telling me that. Yeah, interesting. That's my memory of it. I. I feel a bit bad because I'm quoting someone else. But she said, That's why you see that it's too hard, [00:29:00] which makes sense of what you just said that you could see it as a tough road, but maybe it's a different time now. And do you feel like you have something in common with her that you didn't have before once she came out? No. No. Les Lesbians are different to gay people now. That's an interesting conversation. Are we going there? No, I'd I'd, um No. The only thing I haven't in [00:29:30] common with with her is that she is my daughter, Same as you are. I don't think there's an extra bond because she's gay. Not at all. So do you. Do you see people in terms of sexuality? You know how some people box people into gay or straight? Do you see people in that way? No, I don't. No, I don't. And even even big people. I don't see as big people or little people as little people. Someone says, Oh, she's very short. And I think God. So she is. It doesn't that doesn't [00:30:00] really register on my radar. So no, I feel a bit like that, too. And I'm always a bit bewildered by how people put people in. Oh, he's gay. Oh, that makes sense. I didn't quite understand that conversation. Maybe that's because of the way we've grown up. Well, let's go back and and just cover that gay and lesbian difference. What? What? What do you think? I knew I shouldn't have said that. Um, I, I don't I don't [00:30:30] know. I don't know what I meant by it. Now, Um, what was the context in which I see it. So you you, you said, is lesbian. So she's you know, that being lesbian is different from being a gay man. So you're talking about gender difference. Are you talking about being a woman or being a man? I think I think I'm just talking about gender differences. Yes, Gay women do seem to lead different lives to that which gay [00:31:00] men do. And it's always It's always a bit sad to me that there's not a lot of, um what do you call it? Cross crossover between the I don't mean sexually crossover in verbally. Often two don't mix. I suppose that's what I'm talking about with the difference. I don't know why that is. It seems a shame to me. I was thinking about that in terms of the Mates and Lovers Book this morning, which its [00:31:30] subtitle is the history of gay New Zealand, and I immediately thought, It's not the history of gay New Zealand. It's the history of gay male New Zealand. And I wonder as a woman, if sometimes in the conversations about being gay women feel they're left out of them of those conversations sometimes. Well, I suppose if you're going by, Say, Express magazine, there's more usually more articles on on on and about men [00:32:00] than there are about women. But that's possible because I think the the editors are male. Editor of Express has been a woman for a while. Well, perhaps the content has changed, and there's definitely been rows about that. I know there's been conversations about why is this male focused? And when I used to do the BFM show that you used to listen to So I used to do, um, the girl's own show with Frankie Hill back in the day and and the pink was on after us and the boys [00:32:30] who did in the pink were fun and the girls were serious and slightly scary. And really, it did feel like that because, um, when there was a BFM function, the boys always got invited. We didn't get invited with the other DJ S to the functions, I thought, Why is that it it in my experience of being a feminist, um, I find that women are often perceived as being sort of a bit serious and do but men are fun. Do you know what [00:33:00] I mean? Sort of. There's a playfulness in the understanding what it is to be a gay man, Perhaps. Well, that's the stereotype that gets presented. Well, those guys around that programme were were very flamboyantly gay were, and they were fun. Camp is the word which a lot of gay men are not. Yeah, yeah, And I guess you know, Frankie and I were a bit more political, but it did feel like there was a gender divide there, you know? [00:33:30] And I guess it was called girls Own Show. So it wasn't necessarily a gay show, But, you know, in the pink was two boys doing a a sort of a gay show. But, you know, Frankie was a very a woman. Everyone knew who Frankie Hill was, and we would have a lot of I mean, I remember having an who was running hero parade on at the time as a guest. And, um, Anne said on the radio, Bisexuals shouldn't be allowed in the hero parade. [00:34:00] And Frankie turned off my microphone before she hoed into Anne. It was really, really interesting. And, you know, so we have these quite big political discussions. I don't know if they happen in the pit, but I think we were seen as the a little bit too hard core. I don't know. Mhm. Were you ever afraid John of being seen as that kind of stereotypical flamboyant gay man? No. So I never have been So it's never bothered me. [00:34:30] Even when I go into a fairy shop and keep my heels up the water. That would have been, um, not typical behaviour on my behalf. Do you? Do you feel like gay men who are very flamboyant are quite different from you? Do you think? Well, they're different people to me, aren't they? They're different types of persons. You don't feel that the way other gay people behave has any effect on how people might see you? [00:35:00] Yes, there's the stereotypes, uh, or used to be perceived as what gay people were, but I don't think that happens now. I mean, the big the big drag queens are big drag queens. They're not typical gay people, and I hope they're not perceived as typical gay people. I've been having an interesting conversation with people about this lately with the marriage amendment bill [00:35:30] because a lot of my gay friends don't agree with the marriage amendment bill. They think everyone should be free to make choices. But the main the the so-called mainstreaming of gay culture for some people is not considered a good thing. A Well, beings talks about in an interview that he's done that, um, he feels like some people like the transgenders and the and the, um, drag queens have been sidelined by the mainstreaming of gay culture. And I found that a very interesting [00:36:00] conversation. But I guess, you know, we can't all be worried about everybody all the time. Can we? No. The, uh, that that marriage bill is polarising. A lot of a lot of gay people, not not strongly, but, um, some want to get married and some don't and I think it should be an individual choice. Have your friends been talking about it much? No might know. Even those who have been together for a while. They have no intention [00:36:30] of getting married. They don't. They don't see the need. I guess mainly older people. So there might be a difference there. Young people might feel differently. Do you remember the conversation that we had when, um, Jay and I decided to have a civil union? So Jay's a male, and we've been we had our civil union seven years ago or something. And it was [00:37:00] just after the civil Civil Union bill came in and we wanted to celebrate it. And I asked him, and he told the story at the ceremony that I asked him, Will you civil union, me, not. Will you marry me? Well, we were sitting in the bath and and and it wasn't supposed to be how I proposed, but that's just what happened. But when I sat you down and said, We're having a civil union, I remember you saying, Why a civil union? You're a heterosexual couple. Do you remember the conversation? And [00:37:30] I said, because we want to celebrate this and I never wanted to have a a traditional marriage and and we had quite a conversation before you came around. Oh, yeah. OK, I can see why. Why You would want to do this. And we had that conversation with everybody I seem to remember You You telling me at one point that you were doing it to support the fact that I was gay as well that we that we were a family with gay and straight members, and I didn't feel comfortable having a ceremony that nobody else [00:38:00] could. Yeah. And you've defended me lately in a conversation at an art gallery with a friend of mine who was saying, I don't know why Emma had a civil union. Do you remember? And you explained to him all the reasons why very eloquently, John, do you feel part of a larger rainbow community or do you see your sophomore as just an individual? Inside community? Generally, [00:38:30] I'm part of a part of a community. Yes, I think bit of rainbow. I mean, do you do you sense, like, I mean, when you talk about, say, like, lesbians and transgender, do you Do you feel that you have any kind of community bond with simply because of their sexuality or, uh, no, not really. I. I suppose I think in terms of the of the the gay friends I have is is my community. Well, I support I do support gay activities where I can if I can afford to. [00:39:00] But, um, coming back to what we were saying before, lesbians don't seem to take part in those in those same activities to the same extent. Which is a shame. What about something like the big gay out, which you always go to that and you go with your mates and everybody's there? Does it feel like you're all a big, happy community? No, not [00:39:30] at all. But it's it's one place you can. You can walk around holding a fella's hand without without being embarrassed by it, which is quite nice. Don't ask and the, um, return of the return of, Well, it's not called hero anymore. The Pride parade. But the return of that. We've had some conversations about that lately, too, haven't we about how big it was this year and you went along? Yes, it was very restrained this year, compared with some of the ones [00:40:00] that that happened a few years ago. No lesbians whipping each other on a float, for example, did you think that was a good thing or a bad thing? I. I didn't. I just I just accepted it as a parade this time, I hope, um, next time, there will be a little more, um, or less less feathers and a little more seriousness. Perhaps. Put it that way. What kind of I don't know, just a bit more than than what was. What was shown in this particular [00:40:30] were the gay gardeners there this year. The gay gardeners were a highlight for me, um, years ago at the hero parade and their bee outfits throwing buzz bars to the crowd. And Uncle Ray was one of those gay gardeners. I remember whatever the broadcaster's name is. When she saw that she was, she was broadcasting about the parade. She saw the gay, um, gardeners float and she said gay gardeners. [00:41:00] It was quite extraordinary. Why shouldn't gays be gardeners? It's very weird. And you've been part of the gay gunner, or you were for a long time, weren't you? I'm not sure. What have you got any particular clubs you go to that you want to discuss? Is that private? As the only one I go to is the Sunday pub, and I think that building that block is being [00:41:30] raised for something else so that that might be the last night tonight, and that's been going for a long time for many years in various different venues. Long before I I heard of it. It's been going probably 20 odd years, I suppose. At least yes, there's a picture and mates and lovers of of, I think the at the what was called the Aquarius Club. But I don't know if it was the same one. And is it all guys? [00:42:00] Yes, older guys, younger guys, mainly, mainly older guys. And if if there are young guys there, they're usually Asians. You said a bit earlier about, um, holding hands. And for a lot of, um, gay people holding hands in public is is a big step, you know, being demonstrative. And I'm just wondering, within the family circle, how demonstrative are you in terms of like showing Emma, you know, holding a guy's hand or kissing [00:42:30] or whatever, How how does that work? You have to remind me, actually, because you only you would have only seen the ground. Yeah, and although you've always been a hugger and a kisser with us. And what we always held hands with you. I haven't ever seen you hold hands with a man, or I know Graham and used to cuddle a bit, but I think you're always quite reticent in front of us. I always thought, um, that's when I saw the stoic Kiwi bloke in you, actually, [00:43:00] because you didn't, you know, show that kind of affection in front of us. Well, all those all those years of of, of hiding it, I suppose they they come to afford it. And so how you live your life and do you get used to just not doing it? So what's it like when you do that? Good stuff should have more of them. Oh, when you when you [00:43:30] came home from the gay out to our house, you had a sparkle in your eye. You were in a mischievous mood with your mates and you're talking about holding hands And I thought, How delightful. And I also thought I cannot imagine not being able to hold hands with whoever I want and how privileged I am with Jay. It's also interesting that holding hands in the public is one thing, but holding hands just in a family [00:44:00] situation is another thing. And you think that holding hands in a family situation might be easier. But in some ways it's harder when it's people that you know really well, it depends on where you'd be. I mean, why would you anyway? And if you're sitting down having a cuddle, perhaps that would be about it. I think J and I whole teams No, I'm talking about I'm talking about gay couple, right? Yeah, and I think that's one of the things that actually [00:44:30] like for a gay couple. It's very much more a conscious decision we have to do. You know, we have to hold hands. Where for a heterosexual couple, it's they don't even necessarily think about it. It just is so natural. It's the other way around. A gay couple. We've got to think we can't hold hands because we're in public. We can't do it. So that's that's the conscious decision. Not that you want to do it somewhere. You did want to do it, but you can't this two generations speaking [00:45:00] about their experiences because I, I wonder if you have you two have different experiences. Sorry, I'm bringing Gareth into the interview, but But it is interesting, isn't it, that you should have different, different senses of that? Perhaps my ripe old age having having lived a good part of my life under the radar as it was, You just continue with that lifestyle, I think to a certain extent, you know, change your habits overnight. [00:45:30] Speaking of age, I was speaking to someone yesterday, uh, a couple that they were I was talking about, you know, Well, what is it like for an older lesbian couple holding hands? Um, and they were saying, There's a point you get to and it's ageism where people think you're past a point in your life, and so you're not a sexual being anymore. But actually, they just see you as an older person. Um, do you? Do you have any thoughts on that? Not particularly. I don't give [00:46:00] a bug of what people think. Actually, in respect, I'm still a sexual person, and I'll continue as long as I can. That doesn't bother me. We had when we were doing one of our interviews. I remember someone talking about going into certain kinds of gay particularly male bars, where a lot of people are younger and buff and there's a look, and that he, as an older man, didn't always feel comfortable in those spaces. He felt ignored or [00:46:30] marginalised. Do you ever go to places like that? And you think I'm invisible? No, I probably don't go to them. Um, I've been with when young Irishman mention that was here. I used to go to places with him and I'd be I I'd think in fact, I'd say to him, I'm the oldest person here about 40 odd years but, you know, it didn't matter too much, so I wouldn't go back on my own. [00:47:00] Certainly, I'm remembering a story that I think you remember differently. And this is something that Dad and I find often is my memory of the story is quite different from dad's. Your stories get elaborated. I am sometimes called the hyper. I admit to that, but my version of the story is one of the hero parades. When they were still on road, you and Graham walked down the street holding hands [00:47:30] and Graham lost some of his clients for his business. I think he lost one of his clients and he thought it was for that reason. Yes. True. Yeah. So someone had seen him and thought, Oh, he's gay. Don't want to go to him anymore in his business. And not long after that, I, for some reason wrote a letter to the listener because oh, that's right. Because there was an article about gay parents and gay families. And I remember you actually went out and bought [00:48:00] 10 copies of the listener and that letter which included that story of Of Someone When you're losing losing work and How you know, revolting. I thought it was, and it was quite a long time ago. And we're still having these kind of conversations you know about if people can hold their hands in public, and will it have impact on their lives? And it did have some impact on Graham's life. That particular incident, didn't it? And that had an impact on me to think that that would be what, 10 years ago? 10. [00:48:30] You remember the story accurately. Well done. Thanks. What do you think? The biggest things you learned from each other. Are you first? OK, well lately, because we've been doing this oral history project. Together, we're going around and interviewing older gay men. I've learned from you about the fact that you're an expert in your area. Because when we started this, you felt, Oh, you [00:49:00] couldn't go out and interview people on your own because you don't know you don't know how to do this stuff. And I had a little bit of technical knowledge. But then we went and did our training together, and we learned how to do oral histories and you can use the equipment. And I don't know how to use our new equipment now. And when we actually go out and do the interviews, despite the fact that you said, Oh, I can't you know, I won't be able to say anything. You're the one with the knowledge. You're the one who draws people out. And what it made me realise was how you've always listened and how good you are at listening [00:49:30] and drawing, drawing out stories and drawing people out into themselves. And I think that's a great skill. And hopefully one I've learned a bit from you and how to listen to the other people because I talk so much, you know. But listening is a completely different skill that I think you have in spades. And I've loved seeing these interviews develop and you going off and doing them on your own. Now I just think that's wonderful and you can teach an old dog new tricks. [00:50:00] In that case, I would say, probably the thing I learned about you is how intelligent you are, Emma. Um, you know, academic skills never cease to way. Thank you. And that's the thing about academic skills, which I find so funny is that when we've done the research before, we've gone off and interviewed people. You've found out all sorts of things about people, and you found books I didn't find and ideas, and [00:50:30] we get together and talk about it. That's research. And that's what you do. And you just don't do it in an academic context. But yeah, And John, can you tell me you you know, you've alluded to Well, you both alluded to that. That whole idea of, um always, you know, looking forward and not regretting anything. Um, where do those kind of ideas come from? Where where does that kind of value set come from? I don't know. II. I [00:51:00] guess I just don't see the point in worrying about something that's happened. Same as I don't know where it came from, though. I have no idea. Did you What were your parents like about the past? Did they regret things? Did they talk about the past? No, no, not a lot. My, um I grew up in a household where we were to be seen and not heard at the dinner table. [00:51:30] We didn't talk at the dinner table, so I guess I was re repressed in a way, um, until I was in my in my twenties, I was very, very shy and ingo in grown, if you like. It wasn't until later that became more confident. Took me a long time When, um, I want to ask you because it's I just It's just occurred to me you took off [00:52:00] to Australia for a while. Was that a turning point for you in terms of getting out of home? And, Oh, I still embarrassed myself by thinking that when I went to Australia, I was going to find myself, and I always thought of that in inverted commas. I was going to find myself. I think? I think I'm still looking. So that that was, um I was able to be a gay man in Sydney when I went there when I was 20. So I suppose I did find myself to a certain extent, Yes. [00:52:30] And did you feel confident being yourself as a gay man in Sydney? Well, I wasn't any more out gay then than I than I am now, but yes, I must have been, I guess, because that story of getting on the or the and going off to Sydney is a story that's come up in a number of our interviews. When people have gone overseas over to Sydney, that's the big trip. And then they have adventures. And, well, you're away from your family, so you can probably, [00:53:00] um, branch out of it and do things that you wouldn't do at home. You wouldn't be able to do at home. Not that I do anything special over there, but it is a bit liberating leaving, leaving the country going somewhere else. As everybody who goes on over years, No doubt. No doubt that was it in the 19 sixties or fifties. Sorry. Probably 1956 or 57. So did it feel like a long way to go? Then? [00:53:30] What? It was 33 day trip, I think, on the boat and ship. I suppose it was a long way. My I can't remember. My brother was there. Then I suppose he was in Sydney. Can you imagine, John? What it would have been like having this kind of conversation with your father? No. No way. My father [00:54:00] the licence number on his his car was BQ, and he made a joke about it being bloody Q. Uh, bloody bloody queer was his comment. And I remember them talking about that Oscar Wilde in very, very downing tones. Um, no, he wouldn't. He wouldn't have Condoned me in any way being gay. [00:54:30] He might have come around to it. I don't know, but I certainly would never have had that conversation with him with my mother. Possibly? Yes. Not my father And Emma. Can you imagine doing this kind of interview with, um, potentially a child of yours? How how would you feel about doing something like this? It's an interesting question. It it would be possible. I can see how it could. It could happen because There are so many [00:55:00] so many people having more sort of relaxed conversations about sexuality now, and it seems to me that it's acceptable to say yes, I've been with women. Yes, I've been with men, Um, in a way that it wouldn't have been 30 years ago. I suppose so, Yes, I. I can imagine having that conversation. But then again, if I actually had Children, I might feel quite differently about it because one of the things about the project and I have done together is we're talking about [00:55:30] people's sexual identity. Therefore, are we or are we not talking about sex because people don't talk about sex with their parents very often? So that fine line has been probably awkward? Sometimes I would imagine, and we've certainly noticed in terms of what people say in front of me versus what people say. If it's just you, it's quite different because I think we're father and daughter and I'm a woman. So yeah, I think the the conversations have have changed. Mostly, yeah, [00:56:00] ask me if I ever have a child 20 years time. How how do you feel about today's recording here? I mean, do you feel this uncomfortable, comfortable situation. How how does it feel for you? Well, it's been fascinating because I've heard things Dad's never told me. So it's been great for me and I. I mean, I always enjoy talking to Dad. Yeah, so it's been It's been great. I'm thinking I can't wait for my sisters to hear this. And I've enjoyed [00:56:30] it, too, because I enjoy talking to Emma as well, even though I don't enjoy being recorded. Do you have any kind of final words for people that are potentially in the same situation? All I can say is is, um, just live your life the best way you can. That's all you can do. And I and I would say, [00:57:00] have as many conversations as you can because you never know. You know what you might learn from other people? Hm?

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TITLE: Jan and Ruth profile
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VOICES: Jan Wilson; Ruth Busch
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; 2010s; Adrienne Rich; Alison Laurie; Aorewa Mcleod; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Auckland; Auckland Lesbian Business Association (ALBA); Auckland Pride Festival; Australia; Canada; Charlotte Museum; Charmaine Pountney; Cloudburst (2011); Earthsong (eco-neighbourhood); Ellen DeGeneres; Garnet Station (Auckland); HIV / AIDS; Hamilton; Heavenly Creatures (1994); Hinewirangi Kohu; Judaism; Juliet Hulme; LBD (Lesbian Bed Death); Lesbian Elders Village; Lesbian Feminist Circle; Lesbians Inside the System (LIS); Leslie Feinberg; Lisa Prager; Lynda Topp; Margaret Escott; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Maryan Street; Māori; Nigel Christie; Pauline Parker; Peter Jackson; Pride parade (Auckland); Ruth Busch; United Kingdom; United States of America; Winston Peters; Women's Common Room (Auckland University); abortion; adoption; ageing; ageism; arts; asexual; building; butch; children; coming out; companionship; cooking; counselling; culture; dance; dating; death; divorce; domestic violence; drugs; dyke; education; elder care; elder issues; elders; employment; family; feminism; finances; friends; grandchildren; grandparents; health; health system; heterosexual; holidays; homophobia; honesty; human rights; income disparity; intergenerational; labels; language; law; legacy; lesbian; lesbian parents; love; marriage; monogamy; oppression; pride; privilege; public display of affection (PDA); relationships; school; sex; shame; stroke; surrogacy; theatre; travel; university; virtual elder village; wills; women; women's liberation movement
DATE: 16 March 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Jan and Ruth talk about their backgrounds, careers and ageing together. Sadly, Jan passed away on 2 November 2022.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm Jan. I'm because this is about ageing. I guess that's where I decided to start. I'm 68. I'll be 69 in June and I'm a Kiwi of many, many generations. But a, um, and my other roots go back to Yorkshire and Scotland. Um, but not. But for over 100 years and at times, for 200 years, my family have been here [00:00:30] in New Zealand, and that's a whole other issue about how comfortable I feel about being a colonial in a in a country that doesn't belong. But I am of the generation, I guess, of women where when I started out from school, when I finished in the Seventh Form, having started with 100 and 20 equally boys [00:01:00] and girls at a school, we finished up with 2018 of those were boys. And so a place where women were not expected to stay and I went to university, which was also relatively unusual, though my mother had also done that and became a teacher. Um, that's evolved over the years into my being a counsellor, and now, at 68 I'm still working in that area, training new counsellors. [00:01:30] I've spent most of my life in, um, heterosexual relationships. Uh, and my long lasting marriage ended in 2000, and I had known throughout all that time that I could equally have fallen in love with men or women. But I hadn't actually had any same sex relationship, any relationship with a woman. When my marriage [00:02:00] ended in 2000, I had kind of made a decision that if I ever did get into another relationship, and that was in my late fifties, and I guess that's part of the ageing thing. I wasn't really expecting that that would happen. Then it would probably be with a woman. And two or three years later I met Ruth and that, um, we've been together now for 10 years this weekend and so that's been quite [00:02:30] dramatic and wonderful and lovely part of my growing older. So I guess that when I think about growing older, um, I've got three lovely kids. I've got grandkids. I've had a lovely A very happy childhood, and I've had a very fulfilling sort of working career. But for me, the fact that I moved into the lesbian world in an open and [00:03:00] part of it way got into a relationship with Ruth and having the last three years got a job. That's probably the ideal job in my life. Has made growing older also growing more exciting and quite different for me. So that tinges my whole feeling about growing older. There's a whole new and, uh, yeah, whole new about it. So I guess, Yeah. Over to you. [00:03:30] Well, um, so I'm 69. I just turned 69 in February, and, um, I still think I'm 70 years old, so I'm gonna have to psychologically bring myself into some, uh uh, kind of I don't know, cheer view of that ageing. Um, I'm I'm sort of semi retired. Um, [00:04:00] in that. Yeah, I just wasn't a an aunt. I was too much of a grasshopper. You know, in my whole life, I didn't save enough money. I didn't put a wet things. And so I think for me, as opposed to Jan, I probably would like to stop, but I just can't because I've got a million things I want to still do lots of trips. And, uh, I don't know if there'll be lots, but certainly two big trips overseas and uh, that I'd [00:04:30] like to do And just, you know, we have a lifestyle that involves going to the theatre or going to the opera, and we say, But I need a certain amount of cash in my life. And so, yes, I'm I work still and but I think that's coming to an end. I'll do it this year. Um, because, um, it's a funny thing has happened to me like I. I don't like to be in charge anymore. I don't like to lead the charge anymore. [00:05:00] At one point, I was more than happy to do that, and I kind of pulled back. And then I think it's part of my ageing about five years ago or so I had a temporary A TI A They call it a stroke, a kind of minor stroke, and I think it really eroded some of my confidence. I used to travel overseas all the time and by myself, and I thought, Oh, jeez, what would happen if I got stuck in L, a airport unable [00:05:30] to speak? Um, you know, like, it would be terrible. So I think ever since then I've I've, um I've been creating new boundaries for myself and in terms of, like, not travelling very much, I don't I mean, overseas by myself and things like that, which that was a part of my life. So just changing. So I, I think more than Jay. And I probably feel older, you know, like, [00:06:00] I'm ageing, but, um But I've had, like, I ruptured my Achilles tendon trying to get fit this year, and I had to have an operation and that really too, You know, um, like I did couldn't use crutches. I don't have the upper body strength. And so it all worked out, but it it's I'm much more aware of, um, ageing, you know, And then my body is kind of parts are falling off as I watch it. You know, like so [00:06:30] um, yeah, I'm just not as but I think, I. I still have a lot of enthusiasm and go getter. So probably compared to other people. I do more. Anyway. Were you like Jan in terms of kind of coming out later in life or Oh, Well, yeah, but I, um I came out in my I came out twice. I came out when I was I didn't come out. Then I had a, uh, an affair [00:07:00] with a young woman when I was 16 at university. But, um, the penalties were so high, I was at a university on a scholarship. Um, we saw people kicked out of school unless their scholarships taken away. And so and, uh uh, you know, I went looking for other lesbians at 16. But of course, all of my stereotypes about what a lesbian was all I could see at the [00:07:30] most in Greenwich Village where, you know, moustachioed diesel dykes, you know, with the tattoos. I didn't know who to look for, and I had no kind of concept, and I just thought my family would murder me. So I I went back into the closet for another 17 years, and during that time, I married and had three Children, um, and, um, and then came out again, Um, after [00:08:00] my youngest son, Jeremy was about three or four. And so I came out in the in Vancouver in event in 1978. And, uh, which was, um, you know, a time of tremendous optimism and coming out. Everybody I knew was coming out. And we were all parts of the women's movement, the feminist movement. And, uh, it was just a very idealistic time. Um, and, uh, [00:08:30] to tell you how idealistic it was, all we ever talked about in my home were lesbian, lesbian, lesbian, lesbian. And so one time, my mother came out from Florida to Vancouver and she asked Jeremy, who was about four then what he wanted to be when he grow up. And, uh, he said he wanted to be a lesbian. You know, it was just everything that was being said, but, like lesbians were, you know, it was just like the New world. You know what the top twins sang about paradise. You know, it's [00:09:00] so it was a very idealistic time for me, and, um hm. And, uh and, uh, you know, I went through kind of serially monogamously. Yeah, as several relationships until I finally found about a decade ago, Jan. And so here we are, Jan, just looking at your kind of earlier relationships. And I'm just wondering, can you describe for me what it was like knowing that you could [00:09:30] have a relationship with a man or a woman, but not having had one with a woman? Um what that was like, How How How did that affect you? Uh, I was curious. I was a very loyal, monogamous person. So once I was in a relationship, I stayed in that relationship and I didn't, um, have affairs with anybody else I've had. I know this sounds sort of cliche, but it's actually true. They've been, um, [00:10:00] lesbian people in my life since I was very small, Like my first babysitter and our neighbour, um, back in the forties was, uh, Margaret Scott, who is a known lesbian who wrote plays for New Zealand Radio, and I've got her book now, and, um, she was a very a bit like Rosie describes the people in Greenwich Village like she wore suits, and this is in the late forties and she wore a hat, and she had a very, uh, [00:10:30] male voice and way of being. And she had a woman friend who used to come over and stay with her from time to time. And I've I never put language to it, but I've talked to my parents since then and said Peg was there wasn't in my dad, you know? But she babysat for us, and she was part of our life. And likewise, there was, um, two women who lived up the hill from us that were close friends of my mothers that lived together for even. They [00:11:00] never claimed to be lesbians, but they clearly were Phoebe and, um so there was that kind of acceptance. And then I had friends throughout this this is the cliche. But who I had friends who were both gay and lesbian. So sometimes I looked at some of the women and thought, Hm, if I wasn't involved with, I could really enjoy being in a relationship with you. [00:11:30] Um, so how did it feel? I sometimes envied them that, but for me, my kids were really important. And I was in a relationship that, at least for the first, my lengthy relationship for the first few years was OK. There were good things about the friendship and the relationship. The sexual part [00:12:00] of the relationship was never good, and I think it wasn't. Yes, that's been an issue forever in a way, and maybe if I look back, there would have been I would have had a better sexual life throughout my life. Had I been with women earlier, But I didn't. I wasn't aware, and I didn't think about that at the time. It's interesting what you say about not putting language to particular things like lesbianism. And I'm wondering, Can you describe what your experience [00:12:30] of kind of, um, New Zealand was like in the in the fifties and sixties? You know, in terms of kind of lesbians and gays? I mean, were they out? I wasn't No, we didn't ever use those words. Uh, I left when I was 19 and went to Australia, married very young, went to Australia and then on to Britain and didn't come back till 1977. So a huge amount of things changed between 1964 and 1977. But in those years, till I was 19. [00:13:00] Um, the I'm sure, Yeah, I guess the most important thing is that the people that I'm really aware now were in lesbian relationships, particularly because they're the people I remember more and are more aware of, um, were had to be secretive. Toes, I mean were in were secretive about it wasn't talked about it was covered up as a flatmates or [00:13:30] fiance died in the war kind of thing and that involved the teachers at the school. I was at, um so very not spoken. Absolutely. That was in Auckland. I lived on the North Shore, um, before the bridge went over, so it was still a bit rural. Um, I had never heard the words gay and lesbian. I don't believe till I went to Australia and then [00:14:00] I heard a bit more. But we're talking about the sort of mid sixties, and I think there was a lot more talk everywhere. And I was reading James Baldwin and I was reading other things that really probably through literature was when I first, uh, was aware so no. In New Zealand, when I think back and reframe my memories, there were lots of particularly lesbian women that I knew and couples that were part of our world, [00:14:30] Um that my parents did know but never talked about and accepted into this sort of circle. But the words were never spoken. And yeah, So you both got married and I'm wondering, was marriage at that time? You know, just the dumb thing. It was the expectation that you would get married or or was it marriage for love or what? Why did you both get married? Well, um, so I finished university in 64. [00:15:00] And at least, um, in my group, I don't know what it was like here in New Zealand, but, you know, here we'd all lived in dorms and and, uh, kind of on our own. But there was a sense that in in my family's, uh, belief system that if you weren't married, you had to go home. You know, you had to move back with your parents. And, like, uh, [00:15:30] young women didn't live in apartments in the city, as in New York City, as as far as I knew, you know? So, um, in some ways, you had to get married because that was the only way you could avoid moving home. You know, I'm sure I didn't see it quite that utilitarianly at the time. But it was like that because I just wouldn't have been able like to live in an apartment with other young women. My parents would have forbidden me. And so, [00:16:00] um, there was a lot of, uh and also, like, I was a scholarship kid at this very fancy university. And, um uh, I didn't have the kind of money or the man, uh, to exist there. But, um, this guy that I was dating, who eventually became my husband was a Harvard man, you know? And he gave me a lot of kudos. Uh, I mean, you [00:16:30] can't know how how he equilibrated my existence at this flash place by going to Harvard and, you know, kind of wearing cru neck sweaters and recording his hair on the side. It was just the image that you had of this kind of, uh and so I held on to him for dear mind. He was he and he was He was my ticket into a lot of things. Even though the marriage itself, you know, my kids [00:17:00] would say, you know how we fought all the time, But he he introduced me into a world of a kind of intellectual world that I would never have been a part of because he had an access to that. And he was up around Harvard Square, and I we were up there together, and so I There was something I really wanted. And, uh, so the sexuality thing, it was just too dangerous for me. I couldn't And II. I came from a home where there was [00:17:30] a lot of, um, physical abuse and, um, it to get thrown out of university for being a lesbian. I mean, I don't know, literally. If I would have survived it, I just they would. I mean, there were terrible things going on at my house as it was. So, um, I always look for a ticket out and Peter was a ticket out. And even though II I think at the time I certainly thought I loved him, he he always bored me [00:18:00] a bit. He was very pedantic, and I was always much more of a juvenile delinquent than he was, so that all of that was a problem. I mean, I. I had trouble staying within the traces of what was respectable even then. I, on the other hand, was very respectable, and I guess that's how I came to get married. It was different. It was different because I never left home to go to university. Most people either went to Dunedin or they stayed at home and commuted to university. [00:18:30] The vast number of people in Auckland that I knew stayed living at home um and I am sure that I got married because that was a mark of success as a girl, and right through, um, high school, I've been, uh, much more interested in playing cricket and captaining the cricket team and, um, being a tomboy all the way through, but and hadn't had boyfriends [00:19:00] all the way through school. But it was clear to me that to be successful socially, I needed to have a boyfriend. And so when I did get a boyfriend and he wanted to get married, it was probably what would have been a student romance years later. But he got a scholarship to do a doctorate in Sydney, And the only way that I could go with him like you're saying the only way you could leave home was to get married. I couldn't have gone as his. Well, I couldn't have gone on my own to Sydney, [00:19:30] both within myself. I don't think I felt I could either. So I've done a lot more independent things than that since. So, yeah, it was that sort of feeling and and it was We didn't have Children. We were together for seven years. It was what would have been a student romance, but it moved me out of home and gave me that status of being in a relationship which I felt was important at the time. [00:20:00] I don't know what it was like here, but to give you an example of how important it was to have a guy or a date at least, like, um, so I was in the dorms for three years. And if you didn't have a date on Saturday night, you know, it wasn't like you went out with your friends. Like you were ashamed that nobody had asked you. Actually, they had to ask you by Wednesday. You know, if somebody asked you on Friday, What are you doing tomorrow? It was like you were a third [00:20:30] choice. And, you know, you know, there was all of this. I would say, Misha, craziness, uh, about being selected, you know, you had to be selected by a man who invited you out, and it just there wasn't a sense that say that all the young women in in my dorm who didn't have a date would go to the movie together. No, you had to hide out because you were you you had to. Somehow you weren't chosen for that week. [00:21:00] And you, you know, it was all a very kind of because I can remember boys asking me out and they'd say, You want to go to the movie? And I'd say, What's playing? And now that seems like a very harsh comment to make, you know. But it girls just couldn't go out. Uh, they needed a guy to take them out. I don't know, at least in the in the Bronx, Like I still have this funny thing on New Year's Eve, but especially [00:21:30] New Year's Eve. Like if you didn't have a date on New Year's Eve, you know you might as well have slit your wrist for the rest of the year. It was just, you know, impossible. It was like, you know, bigger than shame. It was like you were just a zero. And so, uh, now you know, a lot of people don't like to go out on New Year's Eve, but I have to, right, because even though I have Jan and she's my date and she's going to be around for the whole year, it's like I'm a total failure unless I've got a date [00:22:00] and something can plan for New Year's Eve. So I bother all of my friends to organise these stupid New Year's Eve things, which none of them like, But they do it for me. So So the kind of time we're talking about this is in the mid sixties, early sixties. Can you recall around that time kind of women that were kind of independent or didn't kind of go along with that kind of? Well, [00:22:30] at my university, we had an art teacher. Um, needless to say, they didn't last very long, but And one time, uh, she was necking with one of the students on in at the library, like on the kind of front steps of the library, and it was like, Oh, you know, incredible. But I mean, they hung them out to drive immediately, you know, And another time I can recall walking in on two women. I [00:23:00] was going to get something from their door. I knocked on the door and I went in. I knocked and I went in and they were in bed, and I think they must have been terrible that I was gonna tell, and then they would have this. I mean, you know, the amazing thing to me is how people came out despite how hard they set the penalties. You know, like, uh, they were tremendous penalties, and you always knew what you were going to lose long before [00:23:30] you could even know what you would gain. You know, you'd long before you'd made love with a woman. You'd know that your your reputation was going to be, you know, shredded. And you would just be some dirty dike, you know? So, uh, I, I think that those things were and they certainly forced me not to come out as a teenager. And I used to be jealous because in Vancouver, they were these women, and they said they had special kind of triangles [00:24:00] on their lifeline, and it meant they were virgin dykes, which meant that they never slept with a man. And I wasn't a virgin. I and so that group of women really were suspicious of me. And, you know, we had all of that garbage then when we first came out because I have two sons. And, uh so there was that whole thing about whether boys, uh, could be acceptable within our community. And that was, uh [00:24:30] but that was a little later. That was in the seventies, but there were real issues. If you on the one hand, there were lots of dykes who thought that, um, you had heterosexual privilege, and that was certainly a view in New Zealand and that magazine circle and all, you know, a lot of condemning of heterosexual women who who were now in the community for having such privilege, you know? But on the other hand, there was really a, uh it it was we [00:25:00] were cobbling together, uh, a way to be mothers and and and lesbians and for me, uh, like a sexually, you know, alive, lesbian. At the same time, I was raising three Children, and it doesn't feel to me that there were any role models for us. I mean, those women were there, but they were secret, and, uh, we didn't know about them. And I think for a lot of women still, [00:25:30] um, there had been a generation of women who'd been intellectuals, uh, or gone to university, and they hadn't had Children. You know, the kind of jane or kind of, uh, you know, women unmarried who'd given up. And that isn't what I wanted either. You know, I wanted it all, and now it seems that you can have it. But for us, we were cobbling together, and I think a lot of women made choices. For instance, when I was really coming out in 78 a therapist [00:26:00] that I went to and spent money on, uh, said to me I couldn't possibly be a lesbian because I cared for my Children too much. I mean, like, that was seen as a, you know, I chose to go to somebody who had that belief. Subsequently, when she came out, I never went back. You know, herself. I never went back and said, Well, you are you still loving your Children? Have you given it up? You know, like but they were, like, truth. That didn't make any sense, [00:26:30] but, uh, that made our lives really complicated, I think. And then when I found out my Children were being teased sometimes at school, I felt very guilty because I hadn't expected that they would get, uh, caught up. I really was so naive. I didn't think that the consequences of my choice to come out would be meted out on my Children. But on some level they were. I [00:27:00] was thinking with the independent women when in my second year at university, when I had got engaged and he had gone to Australia. So I had a year when I was in a relationship, but I didn't have to live with the relationship because he was in Melbourne and in Sydney and I was in Auckland and I, but because I was of the world and a timid and, uh, not very confident. In some ways I didn't get into a relationship with anyone else. Um, but [00:27:30] I became part of a group of women at the university, most of whom were a year ahead of me, and we met around the table about twice as long as this in a thing called the Women's Common Room, which was in the old stone Arts building and which was half the size of this room. So the the men had a huge common room downstairs, where they played 500. We weren't allowed in it, but there was a women's common room upstairs wedged between the cafeteria and the women's toilet, [00:28:00] and there was a bunch of us who used to meet there most days and sit around and talk about arty things and philosophical things and eat violence, actually, and people brought little Bunches of violence, and I don't know what the eating violence was about, I must ask someone. But when I think back to those women amongst those women were Charmaine Pountney and Jill Brave and that they were women who I think very early on. Although we didn't discuss being lesbian [00:28:30] or having relationships with women around that table, they may well have discussed those things after I went home to Milford on the bus. But I was part of that group, and I loved being part of that group at the university, and maybe they had other social things they did later, which I wasn't part of, um, but they were independent women and went on to be independent women and never so I Yeah, they were different, and they were a very attractive and interesting group of women that I didn't [00:29:00] dare to be more than just partly part of. And then I went off at the end of the year and got married and went to Australia. I have a similar story. I was already married and I was in Uh uh, Peter was at Yale doing his PhD. And this was 1968. And there was the first, um, this was 63 by the way. So mine's five years later. And I was I was I was in New Haven and there were these [00:29:30] women's live evenings, let's say, on a Wednesday night and, uh and there was a group. They call themselves lesbians at this women's live meeting. So I'd be liberated from the Children. He would babysit for the Children and I would go like from 7 to 10, you know, to out to into this world of women. And I would stand as close to these five women who called themselves lesbians as I possibly could without, But [00:30:00] I didn't talk to them, and I'm sure that they had a whole spot that I bet going out on me. You know, I didn't know anything about that, and I would stand really close to them and try to listen to what they said and and just really I was totally enamoured of them. And then I'd go home and Peter would say you know, I mean, I. I hated him for a lot of reasons, but really, this was so unfair, you'd say, Oh, do you have a good time? You know, And I'd say, Shut up, you fucking prick. You know, and I'd go on and on. [00:30:30] I was so angry to have to move from that world, that really I found. So just like you were saying attractive, those women were so attractive to me, Um, and so exciting. And then I go back to my life. And of course, he was the way all he was trying to do was be friendly. He allowed me to go, allowed me to go and, uh, you know, I just to to fit back in that box [00:31:00] after I'd seen them. It was really hard. And I think that sometimes now, with the heterosexual women of our age, like 69 I look at them and I think you look so washed out. I mean, and, uh so you know, when's the last time you went to a dance? You know? Never, right? Not for whatever use words. We still do that we still dance. We still it just feels [00:31:30] so much freer a life. And I think all along I was drawn to that freedom in a sense. And I think back to my the people I had crushes on when I was in school were the were the single women teachers who, um, probably also were close and lesbians. I mean, I know. Yeah, I don't know. I could. They were wonderful women. I had major crushes at university. I gave all my books away [00:32:00] to one woman. I you know, I mean, I had whole major crushes and even spoke to a friend of mine who was the only one I trusted and asked her whether she thought I was a lesbian. But I just It was so improbable. Um, in terms of the baggage that it carried, it just was I hadn't even thought that far in 63. I didn't have a name any of that. But the independent women a lot of women here talk about how, um [00:32:30] you know, those the Christchurch murders, whatever you know, that they were that was the first time that they ever heard lesbian was when you know, heavenly creatures the an Perry stuff That that that that the first time they ever heard lesbian was during that trial. And, uh, and it was associated, you know, with killing the mother and things like that. I don't remember it at all. I don't actually know whether When was it In the fifties, and [00:33:00] we must have been protected from it. I think Certainly a lot of women of our age talk about. And that time is the first time they heard about the word lesbian heard the word, and it was a negative context. Well, sure they were killers, which would so right know. [00:33:30] So, Jen, did you have a similar experience to Ruth in terms of how the, uh, lesbian community here in New Zealand, uh, reacted to to someone with Children? Uh, by the time I became an out lesbian, my kids were all overseas. They were in their thirties. And actually, the people that I was had been friendly with within the lesbian community for many years through my work [00:34:00] and through mostly had Children themselves. So I think I came into the community past the time when that was so, um, such a strong feeling. I No, I never experienced that. And I didn't experience that from my own family. I had a cousin who had been an out lesbian since the late seventies, and my parents had [00:34:30] her and her female partner to stay in to dinner and things. It was, um yeah, it's just No, I didn't have any of that. And And sometimes I felt when I did come out in in the early part of the century that I didn't deserve to be part of the community because I hadn't gone through the hard times because it was a really positive, fine thing to be in many ways, Uh, amongst my own [00:35:00] kids, Um, my parents, my my dad, my mom had died by then. Um, yeah, it was it it I didn't have any of that negativity and at work. I actually worked in a team of councillors where there were well, actually, in the end, that it's the greatest. There were, um, five counsellors. There were two lesbians, two gay [00:35:30] men and a Maori woman. It was never designed to be that way. It was supposed to be a general counselling service at a university, but that's how it was. So I felt reasonably, um, part of the in group in some ways, you you're both in quite a privileged position in terms of, um, you've you've seen life kind of both sides in terms of, you know, heterosexual privilege and then also kind of like, It's great, [00:36:00] but I'm wondering, can you comment on that? Can you comment on on what it's like seeing things from kind of both sides? I still feel that I came in at a time when I didn't experience so much of the negativity of being lesbian. So I haven't seen the part of it that Ruthie and many others lived through in the seventies and eighties because that they had done the work to make things more possible and more acceptable by the time [00:36:30] I joined the community in the in the last 10 years. So I I've probably had the better part of both worlds in some ways. Like I can sit on the gay pride float at the, um, hero parade a couple of weekends ago and and feel very happy and meet up with some of my students and be feel very fortunate to be in that [00:37:00] position. I, I had, um II. I think there's a lot you know I don't know why, but like my sense of being a lesbian, they were. When I first came out, it was just a joy, you know? I mean, I didn't I don't think we all were. Certainly. Vancouver was a different place. There was so many lesbians and so many gay guys. They used to say that 40% of Vancouver was gay and lesbian, so it was a very ideal place to come out [00:37:30] into. And there was there were lots of dances, lots of fun. And, you know, even though I think later on I could certainly point to a million things like I had, I ran a custody case in my head about keeping my Children almost every day and with the gay guy that I, Richard Brill, that I practised law with we we decide who we would call as witnesses and how we would handle it. So, yeah, I had that fear. And then I heard that the [00:38:00] kids are being teased and I was really furious. But on the other hand, like the lesbian community I came out to was a lot of fun. I, I think, to emphasise when people did about the struggle. Maybe there was a struggle. Most So we just had a lot of fun, you know? And we said outrageous things, you know, like, I went to sex, you know, conferences on sex and, uh, just things that were really aroy that people, you know, um, [00:38:30] it just was a wonderful place to come out to, and it was part of that whole lesbian feminist thing. So we thought we were changing the world and, uh, you know, and we we were very earnest and, uh, very sometimes politically correct, but I I never had a sense of that femine Nazi stuff that people talked about. I think the only thing I felt like I thought it was, You know, half of the people I knew in the late seventies were named Feather, you know, like I mean, [00:39:00] there were these strange names and, uh, you know, people that feather, you know, And in fact, they did that there was once a musical. They put together a lesbian musical and they they sang feather. I once met a woman named and you know, and suddenly my that name will never be the same. You know, all everybody had really weirdo names And, uh, you know, like, I remember having a friend who, uh, she decided [00:39:30] she could only wear white cotton. That was, you know, And so she gave away everything, including her dog, who wasn't white, like she gave away. And And at the beginning, we watched her do this, and eventually we realised she was giving away some good stuff, and if she was giving it away, we should take it, too. You know, there was a lot of that kind of really thing. And I think the only problem I really had was this whole idea could could, you know, did six month old boys really sad [00:40:00] lesbian energy? If these babies attended our meetings, you know, like I had a hard time with, You know, I thought that they were I guess you can't be a Jew and believe in biological determinism. I just could never see um, all men or, you know, or somehow these little babies have, you know, they had to change your diapers. It wasn't such a big thing that they were there at meetings. They certainly didn't sap lesbian [00:40:30] energy, But yeah, there was a whole We were inventing ourselves and that was really fun, you know? And the the only sad thing is, people who were just coming out had real commitments to your relationships continuing. You know, everybody wanted there to be these, uh, you know, and we didn't really know those people who now, subsequently, they found out a little bit about them. But you know, who'd gone on for 50 years, Like in in when I first came out. If we were together for two years, [00:41:00] it was an enormous amount of time, right? And so, uh, I think we tried to coddle together ways to have relationships, and it was all quite creative. It was fun. Whereas I think when I came out, one of the things I missed and that sort of moves us into the older people was that there wasn't part of the the flip side of being there and being acceptable as being part. You know, my [00:41:30] my dad kind of saying, Yeah, that's fine. Cool. Look forward to meeting with, you know, um was that there wasn't a community to come into in a way that you couldn't. There wasn't the dance, there wasn't something happening. And so that's in a way how I got involved, first of all, in a lesbian cooking group, which was interesting and didn't last very long. Um, but in the lesbian elders village thing, because I thought [00:42:00] here is a group that I that of lesbians, that I can be part of because by that time there was not a particularly distinctive lesbian culture. There was so many people. And so in in Auckland, um, there wasn't a meeting place, like we went to Wellington at one stage, and we there was still Friday afternoon drinks weren't there every week, or and there was a lesbian radio station. So there were those things in Wellington. [00:42:30] But there was nothing here that you could that you could kind of rock up to if you were a lesbian. Want to meet people before I met Ruth? You know, where did you go to go and meet people? There wasn't anywhere particularly. And so Yeah, that whole sense of excitement and sisterhood and things which I've had some of just by being a feminist in the, um, seventies, had [00:43:00] just wasn't there, That was Yeah. And I don't you know, to some extent, you can find out but much more. It's a case that you used to say that if there was at least been having a party, everyone knew about it and went well. That's not the case anymore. You know, there weren't like cliques of people like it was a very especially in Hamilton. You can imagine, you know, like, there we we we all needed each other and hung on to each other. And, uh, and that that was also Hamilton. [00:43:30] And when I got there and the, um, late in the beginning of the eighties, I guess, um was a very exciting place because there were very few progressive people there. So there there was a real connection between, um, Maori women and women. Um, and Maori women were just beginning to say they were lesbians, and that whole thing was very exciting. Um, you know, and they were getting [00:44:00] a lot of garbage, especially if their parents were J dubs and stuff like that. You know, jobs witnesses, a lot of the Maori women that I knew because we worked on violence against women together. So as a as a group, and they'd be wonderful parties. Uh, everyone would sing the whole and smoke a lot of dope, you know? And the whole, uh, the whole night away till 23 in the morning, you know, And, uh, that was a part of my [00:44:30] life. That was very exciting. Uh, because I've never had that involvement, like with certainly with Maori, but even really working up an NGO together stuff like that Because and I don't think it was exactly that way here because there were enough Maori who, uh, and like, the communities were somewhat distinct. I mean, there was, you know, I don't know. You'd have to find out really from Maori, right. But, uh, but Hamilton was [00:45:00] a place where we all needed each other, and we and we had a job to do, like work on violence. And in fact, there was a whole lot of socialising that went on to that was lesbian socialising. And we had a group called Lesbians inside the system lists. And, uh, we tried to figure out in the because by the mid eighties, we had with the late eighties, I guess we had reasonable [00:45:30] jobs When I first come to New Zealand. Almost all the dogs I knew were on the D PB or they or they were studying, right? And so by the late eighties, people had careers. There were more there were more dies at the university, for instance, clearly and things. And so we used to have this group that met, I don't know, a couple of weeks to talk about. How do you survive inside the system? And it was really [00:46:00] AAA great group, because, like, what do you wear? I mean, there were all of those questions. What do you wear to be a dog? What do you had you discuss what you did on the weekend, all of those things Because you were confronting this, uh, this kind of implicitly homophobic environment and you had to survive within that that world. So we were lesbians inside the system. My funniest thing was, uh, when my [00:46:30] son Mark got married and I was teaching women studies at the time, uh, women in the law or something at university in my class. Uh, the problem I set for them was, you know, what does the well dressed I wear to be the mother of the groom like this was, you know, he was getting married, and you know, how do you keep your integrity and, uh, you know, as a person and still pull off being the mother of the groom. And so that was something I said [00:47:00] for the students. She actually wore an identical outfit. That was the second one, because I was gonna say we finished up with me as a heterosexual woman and Ruthie as a lesbian woman on her in the States and me here as mothers of the room. That was my second wedding. The first wedding was tidy silk, as I recall [00:47:30] it, but But they all want to see the photograph. So it was. I guess it was exciting for them, too. I mean, nobody had ever thought about being the mother of the group. There was, you know, like, what is a lesbian way to be that? And and I think that was some of what was fun about it, because there were all of these kinds of real, uh, you know, kind of lager heads that you had to tread traverse, you know, like, uh my, [00:48:00] uh, mother was terrified about what I would turn up wear because she'd always see Diesel dies herself. She didn't know what to look for. And when I turned up and I'd had my hair cut and I, you know, kind of had to dress with high heels, she just She probably never loved me more than that day. So but yeah. Anyway, so they were the issues [00:48:30] which I guess had somewhat Ellen had already kissed that woman by the time you came out. And that was a big difference. I think that those things Well, I've had a gay boss for the previous 10 years. My closest friends were a lesbian couple that I used to hang out with in their house every two or three times a week. Um, was it It was a very easy place to be [00:49:00] looking back at your previous, uh, heterosexual relationships and then looking at your relationship. Now, what are the differences between, uh, a heterosexual and homosexual relationship? I'm a lot more honest in this relationship, but it's very hard to disentangle. What? Um, that this goodness of it and what's the rootedness of it? You know, um, and the meanness of it, I You [00:49:30] know, I, um we can swap clothes. Um, but in fact, there are some things that you might expect. I hope you don't mind by saying this, but you know all my other relationships. I've been with a partner who was who cooked as much as I did. But Ruthie's not a cook, so I do more of the cooking than I ever did in a relationship. I do all [00:50:00] the driving because he doesn't drive. So in some ways there are things that you might expect that would be different in in the practical kind of way of doing things. I can be my butchie self and be the one that hammers nails. And but I've always been that way, actually, Um, but it's it's more about, um yeah, I don't know. What do you think, I? I just think it's more about our loving of one another [00:50:30] in a way that's open. And maybe I've just learned for many long years of more secretive relationships. Um, no. What do you think? Well, I think that there are different times of your life, so when you have young Children, they just take over your life and really like I mean, that was one of the hardest things I tried to do, which was to, [00:51:00] uh, be very kind of still looking for lovers and kind of whatever and being a good mother at the same time that there's a lot to and also a career woman in a career where there had been very few women, you know, uh, like, Jane was mentioning something, um, about your men's common room at Auckland University. But we had something similar, which was, uh, at the law school. I went to, um there was a like, a student [00:51:30] room with a and everything, and only the men were allowed to sit in it. The women had what they called easements to the coffee urn. You were allowed to walk in, get your coffee and walk out. You know, you weren't allowed to sit there. Uh, Peter went to this place Lamont library at Harvard. Um, and I would walk over with him, and women weren't even allowed into the foyer. It'd be fucking freezing, and I would have to wait outside while he would. And some of those [00:52:00] books were only at Lemont Library, and no woman could go into it. I, I jokingly said, but not so jokingly. Even now, we just burned down the place. But then we just It was, like, cap in hand that they let us in there. You know, like we were, uh, you know, grateful. I don't know how grateful we were even at the moment, but somewhat grateful, Like it was just so atypical. You know, I had eight now more than 50% of law women [00:52:30] in my law school graduate because there were eight women out of 200 you know, 50 some odd guys. Uh, it it made it very hard. And there were no day care centres. So there was a whole thing about your life. Just got taken over with, kind of if you had, like, you had three kids, I had three kids. It takes a lot of time, you know. And so and I think for the Children, there's no question that [00:53:00] my kids would have preferred if I'd been, um, asexuals and just kind of geared around them, you know? Of course, because I had X amount of time and and I had a lot more to shove in. And I had time for which is really how I lived my married life. Mostly as and for the Children. Yeah, so but I lived it sexually and wanted to go to dances and wanted to have relationships and fell in love. And so there was a lot [00:53:30] to juggle. And so as you get older and the kids got older, less of that they just took less time and freed up a bit of time. You know, our relationship is the relationship of grandparenting. Grandparent. Yeah, we're grandparents and and that's different. We don't have that, you know, everyday grind of it. I mean, there's a lot of wonderful things about having Children, but it's also a tremendous grind on a daily basis. Just it's [00:54:00] like at my sense is you can feel very differently about this. But you know, there are holidays and birthdays. You can look back and say, Oh, yeah, it's been great, but a lot of it is just juggle. I mean, somebody I knew wrote a book about how women juggle I. I juggled a lot and lots of times I dropped the ball. No I. I loved being a mother, and, um, it was easier because I worked [00:54:30] as a um I've worked in secondary schools and universities, so I always had more holidays. I had my own mom and dad who were great support. Um, yeah, I did a lot of studying, and I do. I guess I prioritised job, study, parenting over relationship. And that's what's different from and [00:55:00] I Yeah. So as Ruth was saying, how how kind of relationships change depending on the kind of age of people, What does a relationship mean to you both now and in your late sixties? It feels very precious. I used to have these sort of dreams of walking hand in hand as an old person along the beach with a lover, and Ruthie and I do a lot of walking hand in hand along the beach, and it's very nice, Um, amongst other things. So I think we can [00:55:30] definitely look. This is the poly in me, which I am, but we can definitely look ahead. And we've done some wonderful walking over the Tasman and the Queen Charlotte and and I hope we do a lot more of that. So, having companionship rather than loneliness, moving into years where our health is less steady. Um, I have been very lucky with my health throughout our relationship. Really, I haven't been unwell [00:56:00] at all I had my phrase with health in my thirties. Um, so it's it. It involves, um, mutual caring, which is in a way, like, I guess, because Ruthie did her Achilles tendon and because she had her stroke. I've been very aware that it's really great. We have a friend at the moment who's just had an accident [00:56:30] and is living on her own to be to have someone loving it and and together. So to look ahead and to be able to make some plans together for what we want to do over the next 20 years, we talk about, um, that feels really good. I think for me it's a It's a really interesting thing for me to be my most aware of being a sexual being in my sixties, [00:57:00] and that's, um, unexpected and different and sometimes challenging because it's a whole new way of being And, um, it's lovely to be looking at having more time to do like I never did any overseas travel till I met. I lived overseas, but I didn't travel overseas. I never did any travel till I met Ruthie, and we've done [00:57:30] quite a bit and planned to do some more so I think we look we can plan together to some extent what we would do when we're not both earning our professional incomes or part a fraction of them. Um, we're lucky to have a lovely place to live. We've had to look at what we'll do when we can't live in that setting anymore. Being part of this being the oldest village group has helped [00:58:00] us to focus our discussions about what we want as in community. And I've certainly pulled away from that idea of a purpose built lesbian village to wanting something much more like a a virtual community of close people, many, but not all of whom would be lesbian. Um, and that idea of how one can support [00:58:30] other people when you have health crises or where you become disabled to do things. And that feels like a very companionable and collaborative thing that we're doing together to look ahead. Well, yeah, I think I think like, um, the nice thing really is like it's taken us years to get to this place because we're totally different people. And, uh, I think that, um, [00:59:00] I, you know, like we had similar friends for a long time, and not one of them thought of introducing us to each other like they never dreamt of us being together. And in fact, when Jane first got together with me, her friends warned her off me. You know, So she's a lovely person, but she's not your sort of, you know, and and they sort of tried to come up with a kind of a date for her. And, you know, they were [00:59:30] so uninteresting. The women they came up with, the G didn't notice, right? You know, they've been they've been pushing, but they saw you as much more respectable, I think, and much more kind of traditional. And so, yeah, but I've been able to The good thing that Dr Jan I think has in a wonderful way, like my life is, uh is just much more together than it ever was. And, uh, and and kind [01:00:00] of fun, you know, like on a you know, I. I used to have, you know, giant love and then depression and, you know, never thought, you know, I was always the kind of person who stayed too long. And that's a mistake in relationships, because by the time I would leave. I'd really hate the person. You know where I left? Uh, you know, like, two or three years earlier. I, I you know, it didn't have to go on that sort of empty, empty, empty thing, which [01:00:30] just makes you really dislike people. So I, uh um II I see Jane me as being much more friends and, uh, you know, and I mean as well as lovers, right? Like and And we kind of have worked out a way of living together, so we're both comfortable, but we're still really different. Like I'm still the kind of dancer or something. And you've come along with dancing. But it wasn't something that was a part of your life, for [01:01:00] I'm not a party girl. Like he is a party girl. Yeah, but I and I've realised I'm not as much of a party girl as I once thought right. I mean, maybe the and I and I like those like, this is the first relationship. I think in my life that I didn't have to keep going out like I it was like I I never trusted. Sometimes we stay in even in the home. I grew up in as [01:01:30] a kid. It was too dangerous to stay at home. You never knew what was gonna happen, right? And And that kind of continued in my life where there could be these things. And so I'm much more trusting that life just goes along and is OK. And yeah, and and And that's perfect. I mean, I can't tell you how wonderful it is, and we have some wonderful moments. Dan criticises herself of being a Polly Po Po Po. [01:02:00] You know, we had totally different things about, though. I have to say, the kids grew up similarly. I mean, the yoga read stories, right? Just different ones. And I mean, uh, you know, we had very six quite successful Children. Uh, so they all got that kind of class thing, uh, privilege to, um but yeah, I think I think we were not a likely couple. And it took us a while to to be [01:02:30] able to smooth out some of those, uh, sort of pricks. And, uh and I think we're both satisfied with their lives now, So if you look at growing old to get them, I know you don't want to, because next time. But Devora says to me, My daughter, she says, Yeah, but look at the look at the alternative. You don't get to be 70 you die, right? So [01:03:00] But I don't want to, because I'm afraid of that too, anyway. Yeah, I. I see us as kind of, um, always keeping a really vital like I like our los I like our lives. I like where we live. I like, uh, but if we have to move out of here, we'll be We manage. The reason would be for the steps of whether we could manage up the steps. Because when I had my operation, you know, I had to push myself [01:03:30] up 14 steps. I knew exactly how many steps there were, and it was a It's worked out fine. But I, I wouldn't want to have to go back to that If it was a permanent thing of having to always go up the stairs on your knees and down on your bottom, it wouldn't work. We'd have to move a lot of wheelchair. And I guess I realised now, too, that I don't have to live in a lesbian community. There was something that made we'd always joked about a kind of a lesbian friends, [01:04:00] uh, old age home and people had always talked about that and things. But it, um, you know, having worked with, um, kind of on looking at it, we just don't have the money like we don't. There's just no way to get together that money. Lesbians don't have a lot of money and and the money that we have or in our already existing houses And so how do you raise money? You know, we're too old to you'd have to have a group. I think this idea that [01:04:30] some of the gay men in town have of getting an apartment building that kind of can have a critical mass of gays is a very good idea, you know, because because you would have that money and you would be selling and moving in. But what what love was about. And I think because we had an architect as the prime mover and and that was a way to begin, was always about building a sustainable community. And, you know, we're talking millions [01:05:00] and millions and millions of dollars, and there's no excess money. So it came down to people needing a fairy godmother. Well, it's hard to believe in one, you know, like somebody having all that money. Then we had to realise that even if we had all that money, we might not live. Might not be the first thing on our list anyway, because I, I think it's, I think it's really different to live with a critical mass rather than everybody being. I think [01:05:30] you need to have enough people to make it a legitimate option and one that you can, you know, that's just accepted, you know. And that doesn't mean everyone. And and it certainly doesn't exclude men either, like gay men or even potentially straight men. Well, certainly in straight women. I mean, I'm just thinking, like yesterday we visited a friend of ours who's been in hospital and took books and food and brought her washing in and things. Now I'd be perfectly [01:06:00] happy for her to, as a straight woman, to be part of a community that we were living in as we grew older. I don't think it is only about a great believer in Adrian Rich is lesbian continuum. I think that, uh, you know, we're we're it's not like we're either lesbian or not lesbian or and now I've been criticised by somebody who says, I have to say transsexual and everything, too. I mean, [01:06:30] can't even that binary is certainly being thrown away, too. But But in in general, I think that what Adrian Rich said is that a lot of women's lives in general are along the lesbian community. Like for most women, their best friend will be a woman, not a man, not their husband. Some women, yes, but they'll often have women friends who are their major. I absolutely did. Right through my [01:07:00] heterosexual living relationships have best friends who were women. Yeah, and so you know, there so you could see those women along a lesbian continuum. I think I think the hardest thing for being a lesbian, uh, sometimes is that your best friend is often your lover. And so when the relationship breaks, that's, uh, you really lose a tremendous amount. Whereas if you have separate friends from you, you it's not all [01:07:30] your eggs in one basket or something like that. You know, I don't I don't know what it's like for gay men and, you know, like, uh, Yeah, like I think Jan is my best friend, you know? And I think as well as my lover, well, that invests a tremendous amount in her, Um, much more than I ever had When I was in a relationship with a man. My husband was never my best friend, even when we were good together. He was never my [01:08:00] best friend. And I was thinking, though, about the living in community, like we've been away on holiday with a lesbian couple who are friends of ours and just the ease of living in the same household with people where you don't even have to think twice about kissing or sitting with your arm around each other. Or, um, it's just very, very easy. And that's partly because they're the people they are, [01:08:30] and partly because they they I think, you know, I think it's been there would be it would be different if we were away on holiday with a straight couple. And I think the same about living in close proximity and sharing bathrooms and, um so if you were to live in a community with shared communal things, which is not my ideal at all, [01:09:00] I want the independence of a separate dwelling. I don't know how it would be. I've thought about Earth Song, Um, as a community where there are some lesbian couples but certainly heterosexual couples and families. It's out west. It's a, um, eco village. Yeah. Um, yeah. I don't know. As we look ahead when you become independent and I'm involved a bit in some research around, um, care [01:09:30] for lesbian and gay people in In in, um aged care facilities and I if we ever had to move into a place where we needed that kind of level of care, I would want to have sussed out well before places where it was acceptable and OK for the staff and for the other [01:10:00] residents and for everyone to be part of a same sex relationship. Um, and I believe there are one or two places where that might be OK. Um, but mostly I think it would be quite difficult. But then the whole issue of people being in a sexual relationship in aged care is a whole major issue. Anyway, that guy was really annoyed at at this lesbian play in the in the thing just from not at the play. The play was great, but we stayed [01:10:30] for what I thought would be the really fun thing, which was to discuss it. And the woman who was the author of the play said, Well, really, I don't see it as a lesbian play. I see it as a play about human beings, and it's like the woman next to me that we went with, you know, she just she just had to take a deep breath because the only reason any of this happened was because they were lesbian. They were kissing in the supermarket, you know? I mean, sure, they were [01:11:00] human beings, but it do We have to really take it out to human beings as if it has no kind of, you know, none of the issues that they raised would have mattered unless these women were certainly gay, at least if not lesbian. And so you know, that whole desire to put it to you know, it's all about human beings. I. I find that tedious. Um, because it isn't, you know, like we don't have to make everybody feel comfortable as the flip side [01:11:30] to them, making us feel uncomfortable, you know, like, well, I said something recently that people didn't like, but I like I have, and a lot of my friends have worked on lots of heterosexual women's issues. I mean, I spent my life working around violence against women, even though I know some lesbians are in abusive relationships. No question. Uh, the vast majority of women in this country are in abusive relationships or abusive relationships [01:12:00] with their their partners sexual men. And, uh, you know, I I've worked a lot abortion rights. I've worked a lot on abortion rights and keeping women's choices to control their sexuality at times that I would never become pregnant because I was already a lesbian. You know, uh, I would like to see some of that reciprocation from straight women. Uh, I. I don't see it as much as [01:12:30] I would like to the support for lesbian issues, Uh, like, um, this Whatever people think about marriage, a marriage equality, uh, thing I think is a clear cut example of, uh, you know, I get disappointed. That's one. That's the only reason I sometimes, you know, um, I've heard women say, Oh, you all You're so lucky. Straight women. You're so lucky to be lesbian. You know, I wish I could be attracted to a woman, [01:13:00] but of course I can't. You know, like this kind of, uh, you know, and you just want to put your fingers down your throat and throw up, you know, because it's like a a total lack of vision on their part rather than anything else. You know, like I And this is really different, I think for gay men to like maybe we talked about this like I had a I had a PhD student, Nigel Christie, and he believed that he was born gay and [01:13:30] that he, his coming out was his acceptance of his gayness in his like adult life or his teenage life. Like that acceptance of what he was. I never thought I was born a lesbian. III. I just you know, the sky was the limit, that's all. And I could get into II. I could see, you know, but I knew that I could be involved with women. I could be involved with guys, but I [01:14:00] and I preferred being involved with women sexually, and I prefer being involved with them because because I already had three Children and then a lot of men you take care of. You know, like, uh, Joanna. Russ has a very funny thing When she writes about a woman, she says the object of a woman when her husband comes home from work is to hit about on the topic that he wants to discuss for the evening. And then you don't have to say anything or he'll just talk, you know, like so you know, in doing [01:14:30] that now, whether or not you believe that I had known a lot of men like that, you know where and certainly sexually, I've known a lot of men who just went into overdrive by themselves and for God, You were even there. It just could have been an inflatable dog, you know? And so, uh, you know, at some point they just went into their own places. So, uh, one of the things I like best about being a lesbian is I think there is more talking. There is more caring. And [01:15:00] three Children was enough. I didn't need another kid. And even if he was a breadwinner, you know, like and so, yeah, I've, uh I mean, I think that's it wasn't that I was born a lesbian. But just the way people are socialised and what they expect and what male privilege is often I just really didn't want to keep doing that in my life. I'm really interested in in in the the whole kind of aged care [01:15:30] area. And one of the comments I've heard from people in the past is that it's not so much the staff who are not, you know, um, same sex supportive. But it's the other. That's what we heard out in. You know, if you're gonna subsidise church groups to run, um, aged care homes, Anglican social services or what do we expect? [01:16:00] The whole institution is homophobic. How can we expect that having that that's the problem, right? That they the kind of, uh, you know, like, I don't think that I mean, that may be a problem, but that's not what you're talking about. You're talking about the people that come in from the world where they've been, um, and and a lot of the aged care places now are run by, um, big business. Not by church. I mean, sure, it's run by big [01:16:30] Anglican, but increasingly they're run by big. Uh, insurance companies and big businesses. But the issue seems to be about the people that come from the world, our peers and don't expect us to be in relationship with the same sex. It's not so much the caregivers or the management as the other residents in the home. You see, I don't I don't know how anyone knows that, [01:17:00] I. I don't even believe that, Um I. I think there's a preselected thing that comes especially in these church dominated things, where you're likely to get people who've come out of those environments who have some connection with those institutions I don't know. And so I'm not saying everyone, but, you know, I, I don't think, you know, um, a Catholic service thing is going to produce a non homophobic environment. [01:17:30] It's just not part of the era. I mean, I find that really sad with some of the guys. I play bridge with some of these men who really want to stay in the church, you know, any way that they can stay in, and I can see why it's part of their background and something that gave them a lot of energy. But I, I I mean They have a really long road to hoe, don't they? Because I mean, the actual church doesn't [01:18:00] many of the people within that church and the church institutional doesn't want them. And so it's It's kind of, you know, it's almost like a nostalgia, I guess, because the I don't know, I think it's it's really hard I. I you know, we've always thought that younger dogs would take care of older dogs and then we'd have employment for them and, uh, and stuff like that, whether that will happen. And I think lesbians are overrepresented in caring professions. [01:18:30] Anyway. So, uh, you yes. So you know, there there are those people who would be And that's why we wanted something that would be like a lesbian space within within them, which I think. But we just don't have the money, you know, like I think if the money were there, it would It would be, uh and you know, like I wanted to apply for government grants. Well, it's very hard to get government grants. Even when what was her name? Marian. You [01:19:00] know Marian Street? When she was the Housing Minister, we went and talked to her. We thought. OK, lesbian housing minister. But there's there's very little money available and very, um, so we're gonna have to do it some other way. And so that's why I think Jane's idea of a virtual community where we like, for instance, this community where we live. Um um Lisa Prager, who owns Garnett Station, which is, uh, up on Garnett Road. So she [01:19:30] did a party to the one K Club, which was, and all the lesbians from one K around Garnet Station. It was the resilience of women, you know, like we're really there and so so we could work out ways that we We're aware that in this little tiny street there are just off the top of my head. There are three lesbian couples and two gay couples in, you know, a street of 30 houses, and there's [01:20:00] probably more that we don't know about so we could work out something where we live separately. But we kind of like, you know, called each other and make sure we've woken up or, you know, stuff there. There's stuff that that that's gonna have to be organised, and I think it will happen, Don't you think? Because hardly anybody goes into those age care. They're over 80 you know, and things like that. So But I think they have. They must have had to [01:20:30] change because Viagra has changed a lot of those men straight men. I don't know gay men in these places where they become very much more sexually active than, uh than they had been before, you know? So I think that that whole thing of see you know, like, there's a I went to look at, um, a model, um of a house here in Auckland where you rented. You didn't own your apartment, but and it was purpose [01:21:00] built, but it was always single rooms. Like there was not the ability for a couple to live in that. Yeah, same sex or opposite sex? It was No, it it it's that you're not supposed to be coupled when you're old. So we are. But I mean, coupling means more than but it can mean that too. So you might want to have some some walls that might kind of protect you from the neighbours. Don't you think from, [01:21:30] uh, you know them hearing you? You're hearing them. I mean, it can mean that. Of course. I mean, even lesbians. You know, the big joke in the eighties was always about what they called LBD, you know, lesbian bed death. That was the the big thing that everyone worried about and worried if they suffered from LBD. You know, and, uh and certainly I knew a lot of couples who were never sexual with each other. Uh, but very [01:22:00] loving of each other, Very caring and massaging of each other and lots of touching lots of everything. And it was, you know, they simply weren't genital to genital. And even now we know several women who they tell the relationship is over, But they continue to live together. They continue to take care of each other, travel together, you know, Incredible. So there are We're gonna I mean, that's one of the things we're going to have to do, just like when [01:22:30] we came out. For those of us who came out in the late and those of us who came out in the sixties, like, oh McLeod or something in her book that's even different. But those, like I came out in the late seventies. Well, we had to kind of make up our there were no role models. And I don't think there are role models for getting old in our in the lesbian world, either. I mean, we have some women getting old, but we don't have any sense of how it's [01:23:00] done as a community because the community probably less than the gay community but has always been on youth. You know, young women in bars, you know, or or Or then there's the upper middle class lesbians, like we are who have house parties or dinners or something like that and don't go to the bars. And, you know, like some of the really good things, all the pride things where [01:23:30] different ages come together in a way, uh, one of the things they've been having at the Charlotte Museum, which is the Lesbian Museum in Auckland. Are these what they're calling intergenerational discussions? And I think that that's really important because I really now believe that that group of us who came out as lesbian feminist, uh, and we thought we were part of the revolution, and that's the [01:24:00] way it was going, like we are really a vestigial group, and the a lot of women aren't really, uh, don't regard that group that we were as a liberating. They even see it as too politically correct. And like, that's not how I saw. Well, we encountered that a lot down at the human rights conference. Mhm. Yeah, like, there was a real objection to there being just [01:24:30] a lesbian caucus. You know, like, um, a lot of queer women didn't identify as lesbian. Didn't want to go to. So they spent the whole lesbian caucus arguing about why there were other caucuses. You know, like, uh, and poor Alison Lary looking totally dismayed, you know, like, uh because it hadn't been an issue when she organised it that she'd even thought about. And we're seeing a lot more women in transition than you ever saw [01:25:00] before. I mean, that wasn't you know, like in the seventies, people talked about roles and things, but they they didn't talk about transitioning. They talked about whether Yeah, but your family, I mean, there were people like, what's her name? Leslie. You know, Stone. But blues, um, you know, who were writing about having had a mastectomy and things for, uh, you know, as part of a sex change kind of thing, but it [01:25:30] really wasn't much. S and M was a much harder discussion than that certainly was a big discussion in Vancouver. There was a, uh, a collective called the Sam Collective from San Francisco, and they used to do proselytising missions, you know, and they came up to Vancouver once and went right through the community. You saw all kinds of people with bruises discussing different forms of sex, [01:26:00] you know, like they've always been things right. You've mentioned a couple of times about kind of finances. And I'm just wondering the disparity in kind of, uh, pay between men and women. How does that affect you? Kind of later in life and especially as as as a lesbian couple, Mhm. I think it's more that Children still take money and you give it to them. I mean, [01:26:30] I don't have Yeah. I mean, I I'm still not in a way that once I did, but I certainly I mean, my kids still need money, and, uh and, uh, and I have some discretionary cash. So, um, I think I was quite lucky in terms of my job. Well, no, There was a guy who was just a chuck at the law school, and he never published anything. And subsequently I heard he got paid a lot more than me. But we didn't know those things, [01:27:00] right? But I was lucky. I. I seemed to have a good job. And, uh, I I didn't experience the, uh even though I probably did get paid less. I didn't really experience much of that. But, uh, like, for instance, I never even bought into a superannuation plan until my youngest child finished university because they went to school from here into Canada. And so that's expensive, you know? And so, uh, to [01:27:30] me, it's not so much the wage disparity between men and women as my ongoing role as a supportive mother. I'd say that for me, too. But I'm really aware that from our generation there would be a lot of women who hadn't earned in the same way that, um, men had earned. And um, yeah, because I've been in teaching and education and there's been equal pay for quite a long [01:28:00] time. Although there hasn't been the opportunity to advance as quickly through different careers as then, it's been OK, but it's I. I totally agree with Ruth. It's like if I've made decisions and given, uh, yeah, to to support my kids in various ways. Um, and also [01:28:30] in the early days that it wasn't didn't seem like a sensible It didn't seem like a possibility to join a superannuation fund until I was in my forties. So what I get now is from half a career, not a whole career. Even though I've worked, Um, all my life I've never not worked. And me, too. I couldn't buy until the fifties till June finished. So you know, they were those things. That and you [01:29:00] know, if they moved my son moved from a little place in Canada to Washington DC. If they needed a house, well, you know they need a down payment. They were There were things you just kind of pay towards you and it's it's funny. Sometimes it's funny and it still comes up. I have a friend who has a lot of money. She's a dike, and she has a lot of money. She never had any Children. Uh, she never married, and she had a very good career as an academic throughout her whole time [01:29:30] and one time, we were at somebody else's house in island and she's I said, Oh, I hear you've retired blah, blah, blah And you know and yeah, I wish I could retire. But a I think I'm, you know, handcuffed to my computer for the rest of that. And, uh, she said, Oh, she said, Well, I made choices in my life, you know? And by that she meant she made choices not to have Children and not to marry. And they said, [01:30:00] I just looked at it and I said, You know, I can't remember ever making choices in my life. That's not how I I mean. One just had those Children, you know? I mean, in some ways, you I don't know that was something that one did you know, or I did. And, uh, I certainly, you know, I wasn't begrudging her the money, but there was no question if you didn't kind of keep giving your income, you know, to help support a family, and I was a single mother for a very long time. Then [01:30:30] you, um you you didn't You just couldn't accumulate very much cash because kids, three kids, you know, I had a a son one time I left him at a restaurant. I was so angry at him. And I was, uh I was making hardly anything. And he wanted these hockey skates. He played hockey, you know, wet hockey for in Canada, and and they were going to be. His feet were still growing, you know. And then there was to be a really great hockey player. You needed [01:31:00] these technologically low skates, you know? And they were, I don't know, $600 a skate. I don't know, you know? And how long would they live? I was so furious, you know, I just couldn't believe it. I mean, like, this is what he wanted. This was his bottom line. This is, you know, it's like, get alive. You know, I just don't have that kind of money. And I think that was the problem that my kids, uh, also grew up thinking they were really upper middle class kids. And I was [01:31:30] the one bankrolling that, and, um, and it got quite expensive sometimes. You know, my son Mark, especially he always liked brand names. And he liked this and that. And at some point, you just go. No, I'm not gonna spend money on fancies technological skate, and you'll grow out of it. Eight months and I'm not doing it. And it was like you were a bitch, you know, because that's what everybody had. You know, speaking of families, what about things like, um, wills and powers of attorney? I mean, [01:32:00] as you age, What? What are your thoughts on those kind of things? I should have done a lot more than I've done. I haven't actually even gone through with getting a divorce, so I'm feeling very, um, guilty. I feel there's a lot of things I should have done that I haven't done. Ideally, I think that I should have a divorce, That we should have some kind of a legal contract, if not a and maybe a marriage and the time that will [01:32:30] come. Um, I do have a will, Um, but I haven't updated it for some time. Um, I think those things are really important, and I haven't done them. I believe that my I. I don't think that would be a problem with my family in recognising Ruthie as my partner and the one that would decide all the things if I were to deny, and we got a verbal [01:33:00] agreement about what we had. But it would be better if it was in writing. Yeah, we don't really, um a lot of people are getting agreements and things we haven't done that, um, we know what would be in it if we had it. I think pretty well, we talked about it, but we just haven't done it. It's just not been a top priority. And maybe that's avoiding the growing old thing. I think [01:33:30] the living will stuff and everything is is really important. We recently had someone quite close within my family who's deteriorating quite badly with Alzheimer's, and we were just We had a long discussion about this the other night about power of attorney and living wills and choice to die. And that's yeah, something that we need to work on our finances because we own. I mean, that's the problem [01:34:00] with lesbian elders Village, too. Everybody wants to pass money on to their Children, you know? And so if you have you have Children, you don't. Yeah, but if you have Children like you, you just don't want to put all of it into Let's say, uh a property because you actually realise your kids need money over lifetimes. So, um, I think that was the whole issue of your [01:34:30] Children. Like one of the things we we've had to do, which we'll have to put into things, is how long does the other one get to stay? Uh, like, neither of us could buy the other one out, and legally, we own half of a mortgage house each. So that's parts legal. I mean, we have other debts, but that's that. Yeah. So neither of us could afford to buy the other one share out bread. So that means [01:35:00] in some ways, uh, because we're leaving, let's say our half share to the Children that there has to be some agreement about how long the the the non half sharing owner survivor one, gets to stay in the house. And clearly to me, that changes over time. Um, like, the older you are, the more you might need to or might need to be, at least rehoused some place that [01:35:30] So the whole issue of how much of the kids get up front. How long will they wait? All of those are things I think that have been too hard for us to work out. Really? So we haven't done it. You know, like, interesting. Hm. And I think that's partly because we've come together in in our fifties, and we each have a completely separate family. Um, and we've made at least we agree over that, that [01:36:00] we will leave to our Children, not to one another. Ultimately, Um, but it's Yeah, that gap. So there's a lot of agreement in this. Yeah, And I think that, you know, lots of couples broke up over these agreements. I didn't know a lot of gay men must have, too, when the Property Relationships Act came in and they had I mean, I think they're good things. You have to talk about these things, but it's like we both juggle. We're still juggling, [01:36:30] trying to keep up with work and family responsibility. So we don't This is never a priority for us, but it's gonna have to be. I guess it reminds me very much of that, um, cloudburst film where you've got the two older women and some of the family members don't recognise or don't know, to the extent the relationship between the two women. And so they just think, Oh, they were just like my friends or or whatever. So I mean, does that [01:37:00] concern you that that actually your family, some of your family members might not know the extent of your relationship that doesn't extend? I mean, they all know that we're together. Um, I think my sons have been, uh, who don't live here. My daughter is wonderful. I mean, she loves Jay, and she's, but my sons are are not. So it's not clear to me that my I I feel very close to to my grandson [01:37:30] and granddaughter, my son Mark. He's got four kids, but the two younger ones, I don't really know, but the two older ones and, um like I Facebook with them. And I've got a photo of me on Facebook at pride with a kind of Afro and things. But I don't Nobody's ever said to them I'm a lesbian. I mean, it's very strange, and I don't know what's going on, so but I But you see now I'm going to Skype with him [01:38:00] on his own so we can talk about anything, you know? I mean, you parents straight parents can be real gatekeepers for the kinds of conversations you can have. They may be anyway. Certainly, I think with the kids that are here in New Zealand, which in essence, is my three kids and your daughter. I mean, we have stayed with them all in the double bed they've given us. They've stayed with us in our house. They we are the [01:38:30] grannies. That's our identity for the grandchildren, for all of them. And, um, we're a couple and and there's no question about that in any of their minds. It seems to me that one of the potential safeguards of making sure that you know family members don't come in and say, Oh, that was not so much of a relationship is that kind of demonstrative? Uh, you know, both kind of physically and verbally and [01:39:00] And what have you in terms of, like holding your hands or kissing and stuff like that? Can you talk to me about, um being demonstrative? Because I think for a lot of people in New Zealand, a lot of, um, certainly gay men, it's very hard to like hold hands walking down the street. We're just so old that people don't see us a sexual being. So if I hold Jan's hand in the street, they probably think I'm limping and she needs to keep me up. You know, we get to a certain age where, [01:39:30] um, we're just the whole idea of that. You might be sexual is so far beyond their kin. You know that we can do anything in the street, They'll they'll come up with some other app. If they can't deal with that. Look how and old that person is. It has to be carried down the street by this woman holding her hand. You know, like and I. I think that that's how it is. What do you think? I think [01:40:00] because of who Ruth is, I think I'm more demonstrative in public in this relationship than I've been in any other relationship. And that's about me being a reticent person more than about and Ruth not there. Um, so I can remember very early in our relationship when we were in Sydney and Ruthie wanted us to dance together in front of the, um in in in front of a basket down on the W for, and I resisted that, and I've [01:40:30] thought about it since. And but I think I would have resisted it, whether we were a sames couple or a a heterosexual couple, because I don't dance in public, you know, not when nobody else is doing it. And so there are all sorts of things around that about my being demonstrative. I think around all our family here that we interact with on a reasonable we have. Don't [01:41:00] even think about sitting with our arms around each other or kissing each other in front of them or having a hug or II. I don't think there's a issue, do you? No, no. But I think you know it's the same old garbage. I mean, homophobia is still alive and well, So, um, I mean, one of the worst things about having Children is to warn them and not to get hurt by other people, so to warn [01:41:30] them what they can say and what they can't say. And, um so that happened to my grandson, Jacob, which, uh, somebody in class when he was in Room two or something or other, said boys marry girls and girls marry boys, and that's the way life is. And he said, No, that's not true. My Granny Jam is married to my Granny Ruth. And and And so, of course, Then he became a fag and somebody that they could laugh at. So, [01:42:00] uh, you know, So you set kids up, right? I mean, that's always the the balance is. So do we really let him know that the rest of the world isn't going to accept that? Uh, do you, uh, you know, what do you tell them? I have a friend who has a kid with autism, and she I've heard him say, Oh, those are boys and clothes. They're so immature. One day they'll grow up too, You [01:42:30] know, that's his comfort when they get him, right. So I don't know what What do we offer as comfort? You know, those people are just idiots, you know, that's what you offer. But you realise that Yeah, like you make a decision for yourself to be a dyke, right? And you you don't realise that your Children's Children, by just being spontaneous, may just step into shit that they're gonna take it for [01:43:00] for no reason whatsoever. And the same can be true. You just don't know. Finn can go and say something. He's for right, and he could say something and get it. So then you have to. You have to be ready to cuddle them and and help them. Do you know it's It's It's It's not accepted. And there were kids. Like, uh, Jacob tells me that one of the kids he's playing with at school is this really Christian kid. I mean, uh, you know, very religious. I think [01:43:30] that would be a problem. I really do. I mean, how will they he accept our relationship? He can't, you know, like, uh, I I may have told you I once used to have when I lived in Hamilton. I used to have this wonderful, uh, poster. And it was It had all these words ConEd lot more everything. And then it said we are the women men have warned us about, you know, And, uh [01:44:00] and, uh, Jeremy had this friend and the father dropped him off, you know, and, uh, and the you know how you have these poses. You don't even remember They're on your wall, right? And he said, Is that true? He said to me, which I don't know. I said, I guess so I don't know. I never saw that kid again. Never. He was never allowed to come to my house again. So, you know, I, I have more of a feeling of that as a Jew, I think than you [01:44:30] know, because I have. I mean, those things happen in that environment, too. So you just can't. So I'm I'm more sensitive. My mother was very sensitive about things like that. People calling people dirty Jews. I mean, she told me I should never marry anyone, not Jewish, because someone would turn around and call me a dirty Jew. Otherwise So, uh, I, I have those feelings, but I think it's a shame if you think about this. You know, seven year old with this bright face. Who says [01:45:00] and my granny was married to my granny? Jim, you don't really want to close them down and say, Well, actually, Jacob, if you say that, man, they're gonna call you a fag. You know, like you know, and all of that stuff. Because that's what they did to Jeremy. When he wore his helmet, I forced him to wear a helmet before it was against the law not to wear a helmet on his bike and some kid knew that I was a lesbian at his school and he was wearing his helmet, and that's what they did. They just [01:45:30] really took him out in terms of all of these things, just because he was wearing a helmet when, you know. I mean, and that meant he was somehow less than them, you know, like I could have murdered them all for doing that. You know, I've never shot a weapon, So that's good. I don't know how to. Yeah, no, your your kids were older. It was really different, I mean, and by the time Jane's kids came into this, it was [01:46:00] groovy. To have a lesbian for a mother like that was the only thing they were missing, you know, in their lives. And we went and, um stayed in London last January for six for a month, looking after my youngest grandchild, who was six months old at the time, And me and I mean there was no, it's no repercussions because they're too little in the way from the Jacob thing. But we were introduced at the daycare where we had to drop them off and pick them up. [01:46:30] Um, this is, um, Finn's granny. Jan and her partner, Ruth. Just kind of wrapping up. Now what? What? What do you think are the biggest concerns, um, around ageing as you age specifically about being a lesbian couple. I mean, the biggest concerns are to stay healthy and one's own mind. Right? Mind? Um, I think, yeah, Yeah, just stay healthy. And [01:47:00] but as far as being lesbians growing old, we want money. We have to win the Lotto, and then we could go around the world. Yeah, I guess. I guess as we raise all of those little things, I realise we need to do this. I'm really weird, you know? So I couldn't come back and, like, that's where my I stopped on this conversation, you know, because I mean, I don't know what if I fell out [01:47:30] with one of your kids for some reason, uh, you know, it just gives them too much power. Um, I guess I'm thinking back about the thing. Like when Ruthie was in hospital. Um, and I was there supporting her a lot of the time. Public hospital last year. I mean, there was no issue, really with any of the hospital staff that I was her partner. Um, when I when we [01:48:00] were getting home to go home and I said, Well, I'm gonna have to do the bath thing. Um, as her partner, you know, they still thank goodness for that and took me into the bathroom and taught me. I mean, nobody turned to here honestly, did they? Nobody, they were. What did she say? We're only too delighted to have someone who's here physically and able to do the caring. It's it's It's just It just wasn't an issue. I didn't and I was allowed to go into the room and hold your hand and you had the anaesthetic took on, and we [01:48:30] just assumed we could do that and nobody raised an eyebrow at any point. Yeah, I think it was fine. We just assume you know that it will be a certain way. So I it it might. It would possibly be different and probably in in residential care. Um, but certainly as far as the public hospital system, we've been very open about when we've had to about being a couple, and we've been [01:49:00] treated with respect except that one woman when she was doing the past on your leg, Do you remember? And you and you say, Oh, the whole issue about, um, marriage came up and she was Yeah, and she was really against us, and we weren't sure with us. At least she was totally against, you know, gays being able to adopt, you know? So she thought I was just a good friend. [01:49:30] I mean, look at you of a certain age, they don't even think of you as a couple, but the doctors and nurses, When I learned to bath you, they knew we were a couple. Yeah, but they also you could just as well be Elizabeth and Jerry and they, you know, it's a It's a funny thing. I think you get to an age where you're seen as AEX, regardless of whether you are or not. But that must be really, um Well, I'm I'm kind of bristling because you're in such a vulnerable position [01:50:00] in a hospital. Like, you know, if your legs being blasted and and you're getting that kind of conversation and you think I don't need this right now, you know I really don't need this. Well, I She was, um, a black woman from Africa. And I said to her, I guess you don't know. But in 1968 blacks couldn't marry. Until then, they couldn't. Blacks couldn't marry whites in America. I guess. What? And they used all those arguments about God, [01:50:30] you know, the same exact arguments. So she shut up. You know, like I mean, you know, you can't. I mean, but she certainly did feel that. And they all agreed with her and the other women standing around. There's no, you know, so it would be much harder, right? I mean, I had much more stuff with ageism in that operation than I had with that. Like they told me that, uh, you know, like, at one point the guy said, Well, if you were 25 years old, [01:51:00] I'd tell you what you can't do, but, you know, you're not gonna do anything anyway, right? And it was just like, you know, or I had to beg for the operation at a certain point because it was, like, all you're going to do is sit on a couch, right? You You know, like I walked in last year, you know, and It was just that appealing on that very requesting to a doctor and obviously just been to Italy, too. He went, OK, that's the operation. [01:51:30] We're doing it, you know, like, and it was simply that ability because it was like, you know Oh, well, you're just a kind of old woman. You don't know what it Why would you be, uh, needing this? You know, uh, work Anyway, they did it and everything, but it it was the ages that was there was really a lot, you know? Yeah, like it's funny. You just don't expect it. And if you couldn't advocate for yourself [01:52:00] or you didn't have a friend or a partner there, then you'd really wouldn't get most of the things that you could you would deserve because they wouldn't. They just think you give around the neighbourhood and that's it. You know, it would. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I think that our lesbians things are we're We're very privileged couple. We have money, we have health. We have support of family support of family. [01:52:30] It's hard to, you know, I mean, it's really come a long way. Really? Since, uh, I first came out, You know, like I mean, really, For any of us who came out in the seventies, I think we would find it hard to believe that marriage was a possibility, you know? And, uh, and it is. I mean, I found it really interesting that the top what's her name? You know, Linda got [01:53:00] attacked for, uh, you know, by or, you know, was told that therefore, she was proving none of us needed marriage. I mean, I didn't know why they'd had a civil union then, but, you know, I I I think it shows how far that Christian right has come that they're not even questioning, uh, that her right to have some sort of civil union. But really, to me, I never wanted a civil union because I never wanted to collude [01:53:30] with my own, uh, oppression. You know, I just I just felt separate, but equal was an oppressive position, and it wasn't equal anyway because we knew about adoption and things like that. But I you know the way gay men, especially now, are creatively making their own Children in India and things and then bringing them back. The whole thing of international surrogacy has become a giant issue in this country, and it really [01:54:00] And I think it's, um you know, I mean, like, just recently, you may know them. This gay couple, he seems to be a psychiatrist through Waikato Hospital. And they had a surrogate from the states, a friend of theirs. But, uh, the woman carried twins, and they were each the biological. Each of the men was the biological parent of one of the twins. And, uh so, like, [01:54:30] they the they were born twins. And the whole idea of, um, of adopting them, uh, you know, and and And we have a friend that they've used the gay brothers sperm of the non biological mother. So two women. And and so there's been total buy in from the grandparents and everything because, of course, it's there. If they want to see it [01:55:00] that way, they the child is biologically related to. I think similarly, we're fine. Look, we found there with AIDS, didn't we? A more a different way to grieve, like with the quilt and with the there was the need. And then we grieved differently. And now, uh, there are rules of our Children and and our community wants to have Children so lesbians don't have to go through that. But gay men do, and they are. And they're finding amazingly [01:55:30] creative ways to make Children, you know, like, uh uh, you know, within the law. So I think it's it's really, really interesting. It's like it like as a an academic lawyer. The law has stayed so far behind. It's really the The community has forced these changes they would never have been given, you know, like we've taken them. [01:56:00] And in the end, it just so much has happened that there was no way to stop it. Don't you think so? I mean, the whole recognition of our families because so much of the coverage, you know, there'd be these, Really? I remember a guy who, uh he was this closeted gay guy, and he would write things about cohabiting contracts and this and that, and, you know, and never once said who he was and then would go cruise places at night. You know, [01:56:30] it was just lives aren't like that as much anymore, are they? I mean, those those lives of total secrecy are, you know, much less. I mean, it can be just as hard to come out in any given family, I'm sure. Just finally, what do you think are some of the benefits of ageing? Well, my super card [01:57:00] that lets me go to you for free and on the bus. Yeah. Yeah, that's a benefit. So I never thought I'd say Winston Peters as a benefit, But he has, I think, um, the possibility and actually the reality of, um because I've always worked full time and a half really very long hours, um, [01:57:30] to have the possibility of more leisure time, like I now have trouble thinking today is Saturday because my weekends start on a Friday and, um, that's that's nice. That's different from how it's ever been. So the the possibility of more leisure time is a real advantage, I think, um, not feeling so [01:58:00] pressured to actually do things out in the world, but being able to actually just mooch around a bit, it feels good. Yeah, um and I think I didn't want to say too much about this, but there's something that I I think that as I grow older, I'm more reflective, and I'm more really [01:58:30] to kind of think about how my life fits into the world, and, um and that's good to be a bit more contemplative and a bit more mindful, I guess about, um, What sort of meaning my life has and has had. Well, this has been a journey I've been on for now a while of making meaning. [01:59:00] Um, at the same time, I'm cutting back on work and wanting to do that, and yet at the same time, being afraid, because work structures my like and I have a certain number of groupies that are quite, uh, fun to have. And, uh uh, it's going to, um it it has already changed in terms of my, uh and uh So what am I looking forward to? I'm looking to [01:59:30] Yeah, to do. I hope I do. Then I mean, one of the troubles for me with working The way I'm working is I haven't freed myself from that to do those things that I say I'm gonna do if I ever get there, You know, so But then, uh, yeah, I like the idea of not being responsible so much anymore. I, I just really given that away. Not on a day to day level of course responsible for dinner or [02:00:00] something. But I don't feel like I no longer feel It's my fault if we don't get the revolution. You know, I used to feel that I had to do more, you know, or just keep going. So those limitations can be freeing, you know, not feeling that I have to lead the church. I really, you know, like I'll tell you one thing I've done and I've done it, which is if somebody proposes that I do something and my initial sense is dread, [02:00:30] I say no years ago, I used to say, of course, and then steal myself and work up to it, you know, to have a whole battle to deal with it, you know, channel all of my resources. You know that I just couldn't say no. I had to rise to it and do it. Now it It's like why, you know, because like, we've lived long enough to realise that virtually any given [02:01:00] thing isn't gonna make any bit of difference, you know, like so why do I have to suffer with it, you know, So I if I feel dread, that's it finished? No. What is the answer? I think it's been good for me. Actually. Give it away. Give some of that away, but you have to make sure you're not left with nothing. Mhm. I think what we have is now at this time in our lives is the possibility of an equal relationship. [02:01:30] I've I. I have to say, I never had that before and that was always the dream I had of a lesbian feminist future. And I think that that that's really here. It takes work and everything, but it's worth it. I I never had that kind of equality of relationship before, and it's a joy.

IRN: 792
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ATL REF: OHDL-004233
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089527
TITLE: The digital life of rainbow youth
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: John Fenaughty
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2000s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Formspring; Friendster; Gayline (Auckland); Information Technology; John Fenaughty; NetSafe; OUTLine NZ; Queers on Campus (Auckland); UniQ (Auckland); accessibility; bebo. com; bicurious; bisexual; bullying; children; communication; computers; crime; cyber bullying; dating; depression; education; facebook. com; gay; gender; happy slapping; harassment; health; homophobia; homophobic bullying; identity; instagram. com; internet; internet dating; isolation; lesbian; media; myspace. com; peer support; queer; relationships; research; safety; school; school counselor; sexuality; smartphones; social; social anxiety; social media; social networking; suicide; support; teaching; technology; transgender; trust; tumblr. com; twitter. com; youth; youtube. com
DATE: 6 March 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast John Fenaughty reflects on how digital technologies are impacting on rainbow youth.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So my name's John F. Um, my, um, interest in this area, um, probably stemmed from my adolescence when I, um, realised that I was gay and, um and that probably put me on a bit of a trajectory around exploring. Um, I think ultimately, how things could be better for young queer people. Um, and that culminated in me, um, founding queer on campus at the [00:00:30] University of Auckland, which now has become uniq. Um, and at uni Q, I was, um well, quiz on campus. I was struck by how many of my friends had really negative stories of coming out and of being at school, and another bunch of them had actually had some really positive experiences. And I was doing a psychology degree at the time in education, and I decided to do [00:01:00] a master's degree looking at how young gay and bisexual men in a New Zealand understood themselves and how they experienced suicidality. Kind of with the thrust of looking at young people that had struggled and those that had not struggled. And from that, um, research came this a strong finding that, um, the amount of victimisation that young people experienced at school was correlated to whether or not they'd experienced kind of suicidal thoughts or had [00:01:30] attempted suicide. Um, and it was in the interviews with some of these participants that I was struck by the extreme levels of of violence that some queer young people were exposed to at school shocking stuff. And at one point, I thought if I ever had a child, I'd just simply want them to be home schooled because I was so horrified by what people had put up with, um and that then, um, laid the groundwork [00:02:00] for me to, um, pick up a PhD later on, um, in my role as research manager at Nets safe, which is New Zealand's cyber safety agency. Um, And in that role, um, I explored how Children and young people, um, managed challenges on the Internet and on mobile phones. So what they did online and on mobiles and what challenges they experienced and how they manage those, the point being to [00:02:30] give us some understanding of how we could better promote the well-being of Children and young people online. Um, and I suppose my, um, my kind of interest in the queer community intersect with that. So I. I see them as intimately intertwined, Really? And clearly the digital life is something that's of massive benefit to all young people. But particularly for some queer young people [00:03:00] just looking back at your own teenagehood. And what kind of digital life was there when when you were going through adolescence, I think looking back through my own life and my digital life I grew up with, um, computers. I was quite lucky because my my mother worked, um, for a an I company. And, um, we'd always had, um, crappy old P CS at [00:03:30] home that we could play around with. But my exposure to the Internet didn't begin until I started university. So and that wasn't until the sort of late, uh, mid 19 nineties. So I sort of had no digital, um, adolescence and and for most people my age in their late thirties, that would very much be the case. Um, so it's kind of interesting coming to this from a totally new angle, Um, in terms of what is it like for a contemporary young person? [00:04:00] And it's totally different to, um, a gen X kind of experience. Um, the Gen Y and the Gen Y plus has a totally different experience of growing up. What about with things like, say, mobile phones or smart? Were smartphones even invented in the mid nineties? No. Smartphones didn't. Didn't come into being until, um oh, absolutely not until, um well, not realistically until the mid two thousands. So in the 19 [00:04:30] nineties, there were those, um, crazy big, um, chunky cell phones that, um, weighed probably 500 grammes and, you know, were as big as a brick literally, um, in some cases. And so that was very much where things were at. And it wasn't until, um in the the sort of late nineties that consumers and and students and young people would start to afford those devices. So when do you [00:05:00] think, uh, things like the Internet kind of took off for kind of rainbow young people? When when was was the first kind of things like, you know, either support sites or meeting sites? Or when did all that start? That's a fascinating question, I. I couldn't tell you the I couldn't tell. I couldn't give you a specific date. But one thing that's very clear early on is that gay people and gay men in particular have always been into technology. [00:05:30] And we're very early friends of the Internet. Um, so I would imagine that as soon as the sort of, um ability to do that stuff became possible, the gay community would have jumped on it. However, I know that, um, in terms of gay youth, um, there probably weren't very many organised support sites until quite late in the piece as in, probably within the last five or so years. And that reflects, [00:06:00] um, some of the challenges in coding and putting together websites that young people can find. So it's not enough to just make the website. It's got to be accessible to young people. I'm wondering if we can do, like, a bit of a snapshot of where we are today, in 2013 for the kind of, um potentially the the kind of technologies that that rainbow youth are are using today. What? What kind of things are creating? Yeah, the, um the reality, [00:06:30] um, for today's usage is that, um, we know that a a large scale New Zealand project demonstrates that around 90% of 11 year olds in New Zealand have access to the Internet at home, and we know that, um, the biggest predictor of Internet access at home is whether or not there are Children in the household, not socioeconomic status. And so young people very much drive the use of the Internet. [00:07:00] I think for me when something's at a 90% prevalence rate, it's become normative. So from that sense, I would say that by the age of 11, it is now normative for young people to have Internet access at home. And by the age of 13, around 90% of young people have access to a mobile phone. So, um, within those those are basically the hardware tools that connect young people to the Internet. And so it depends to the extent of the [00:07:30] the hardware what you can do on the Internet on those devices. But as more and more smartphones like um iPhones and Android um, phones proliferate, um, they come with WiFi Internet access and, in some case, three G access. And that means that young people can use those devices to access the Internet, as well as gaming consoles like the PlayStation four and the Nintendo Wii and the Xbox 3 60 [00:08:00] All of these have wi-fi capability as well, so they can go online. And in New Zealand, one in four households has access to a third generation gaming console, so those are also portals for young people's access to the Internet. So essentially, you can imagine that there's a lot of opportunity for young people to go online. And the things that queer Youth, um or Rainbow Youth are doing online reflect very much what all [00:08:30] young people are doing online, particularly at adolescence. And the key thing is communicating. Um, one of the things that became apparent in my research is that rather than looking at the particular sites where young people go, it's particularly helpful to look at the activities that they're doing online and on mobile phones. Because, um, the sites on the Internet change so rapidly that a site specific, specific kind of analysis [00:09:00] fades into, um, irrelevance so quickly. Um, for instance, Friends was the most popular social networking site on the Internet and that died of death and was replaced by MySpace, which has since died of death, which was in some ways replaced by which has since started to death. And now the current, um, social networking flavours include Facebook, which is by far and away the most prevalent. Um, and then other ones that are coming up quickly [00:09:30] are, um, Tumblr, which, um so Facebook. Let me go back a step. Facebook is a site which, um enables you to have a profile where you can and it's that profile is named with your name and your photo. And you can add friends to your profile, um, through their profile. So I could add you, for instance, and I could look on your profile and see that you're friends with Bob. And I'm also friends with Bob. So I could add Bob. And that's a way that I can increase my social [00:10:00] network by connecting my offline friends, um, to my online friends and making them my online friends as well. In Facebook, I have the opportunity to publish photos I can play games. Um, Farmville is is one of the very popular games on Facebook. Um, I have the ability to email people send instant messages to people. Um, basically do a lot of different functions within the application. [00:10:30] Um, and what we find now is that there are also sort of subs, social networking sites that kind of pull one of these features that we'll see and really make a meal out of it. So Instagram is a photo sharing site, which is incredibly popular, particularly with young people, um, which enables you to share photos with friends. Um, Tumblr is a similar UM site, which really works on the Internet to share photos. Twitter is, um, also incredibly [00:11:00] popular with young people, and that enables you to do micro blogging, which is instead of a a larger blog post where you're a small one. I think it's up to 100 and 60 characters at a time, and so you can put something out there and you can tweet it to various interest groups through Hashtags. Or you can tweet to people directly. And and that's a really common form of social networking for young people as well, and another one that that is actually a social networking site. But we often don't think of it as YouTube Um, [00:11:30] which is a video sharing site and where these become social networking sites is where they enable people to interact with each other. And in that way you can see people growing their social networks and socially interacting. Are there specific things that Rainbow youth are using the Internet for? Or mobile phones for that are different from, say, the general market? I think, um, whether or not Rainbow Youth and and non Rainbow youth are using the [00:12:00] are using digital technologies differently is very hard to say. Essentially, all youth have the same developmental tasks, um, in adolescence, And that is probably when Rainbow youth come into being, Um, puberty is often where, um, the reality of sexual attraction becomes apparent to some young people. And it's within an adolescence then that this is likely to take place. That excludes the situation for young people that are [00:12:30] growing up at an early age, um, with a different gender identity to the one that they may have biologically, or young people who feel queer from a very early age. But the Internet use probably really kicks in when young people are literate enough to be able to type and interact in it. So for me, the Internet probably comes into its own. When young people are about 10 and from about the age of 12, their focus is very much on, [00:13:00] um, developing identity. And that's when you start to separate out from your family group, and you instead seek to develop a sense of what's important for you, how you feel about things, what you think about the world as opposed to the received wisdom that you've got from your family in and young people, including Rainbow Youth, use the Internet to do that in a multitude of ways, primarily through forming relationships with others. And it's informing those [00:13:30] relationships that you get a different touch point to kind of go. Oh, actually, my other friends say this and my family say this and what sits most comfortably with me. Um, they do it through getting information. I may have grown up in a particularly, um, sort of fundamentalist household. Um, and I may use the Internet to get information that, um, offers me a different world view. Um, I, um, can use the Internet [00:14:00] also, um, in a way to find out sexual information that I may not get access to in an offline world. For instance, if I'm at a school that doesn't include queer sexuality information, um, or gender identity information, and in my schooling, I may use the Internet to find that out, and we know that, um, young people will use the Internet to seek out sexual information. Um, and of course, young people use the Internet to form [00:14:30] romantic relationships, and Rainbow Youth probably may be. This is where things would differ more than for non rainbow Youth may use the Internet more to do this, because in some ways the Internet can be safer for Rainbow Youth to do relationship formation and to identify, um, people to be in relationship with why and how. Um, the the difference there is that, um, for young people [00:15:00] who are not out, um, the Internet can provide them as an opportunity to meet other young people who are either out or not out but are out online as it were. They don't need to worry about outing themselves in a physical environment, like a school or a club, or a disco or a sports team, where they may be met with some negative comeback. Instead, they can self select into a kind of dating site where they say, I am gay or I'm bi-curious, [00:15:30] and I'm interested in meeting other gay or bi curious people That means that they avoid some of the stigma of people who would react to them saying I'm gay or bi curious, for instance, So in that way it can be safer. On the flip side, it can also be more dangerous, because when you're interacting with people that you don't know, um and you meet up with those people you run the risk of, um, something negative happening to you. And so [00:16:00] rainbow youth, like all youth, who meet people face to face offline, that they've only met online, face the the challenge of finding ways to do that safely. Um, and that usually means making sure that they tell someone they trust where they're going, that they bring a friend with them, that they meet that person in a public place where there are people around to make sure that everything goes well until they develop a relationship where they feel particularly trusting and confident with that young [00:16:30] person. Do you think that happens when, for instance, if you aren't out and you're meeting people, um, online that you would actually want to tell a trusted person that you're going to meet somebody I know It's a fascinating conundrum. What do you do when your you know your first ever relationship with someone as an out person? As with one person online? Um, the challenges there are are very high, Um, and what I would recommend someone to [00:17:00] do in that place is usually people meet other people within their social network. So it's not often that you just form a relationship with one person. Usually when I would imagine that when someone's coming out, they seek out other relationships. And the key thing is to try and get a little bit of, um, background info on someone and to form multiple relationships with people that you know and eventually trust through time. It's definitely about, um, building [00:17:30] up trust in a relationship and not rushing into things straight away, which can be really difficult. I think when you've been isolated and you meet someone online who suddenly understands your experiences can totally identify with you. And the key thing to do then is to make sure that you trust them. And actually, in some ways I think there are probably always people that we can find we can find offline, who we can trust. Um, and this is the thing. They would [00:18:00] be a guidance counsellor at school, for instance, someone that you can trust. Um, they would also include people at, um Well, I suppose in some ways, by meeting someone online, you give yourself the opportunity sort of online. Um, an online meeting gives the opportunity to explore some of this stuff and to feel a bit more comfortable. And it doesn't mean that you have to rush into an offline meeting. And ironically, [00:18:30] by meeting someone online, it might give you some of the strength or conviction or motivation to go to a support group. Um, where you can be, um, where you can trust, Um, an organisation and a process to protect you. Um, because that is very much about looking after yourself and making sure that you're going to be OK. Ironically, I think actually, most, um, young people now grow up with a strong message that meeting people face [00:19:00] to face offline, you know who you've never met before is really dangerous. It's not always the case, and there are probably all sorts of ways that you can do to make it safe. If you are going to meet someone who you've never met before. Make sure you do it in a public place where there are lots of people around, Um, and never feel blackmailed into doing anything that you don't want to do. Um, that can often be something that people say they'll do or they'll be able to track you down. Or they'll tell other people in [00:19:30] your friendship network if anyone ever tries to blackmail you. Um, it's really important that you talk to someone you trust a community constable at the police station, that sort of stuff. Um, a support line, um, is critical because that's criminal behaviour. And in no way can someone do that to to harm you. Um, and if they do, that's when you have some real comeback. But that's all scary stuff. And the reality is that most young people that are [00:20:00] going to be meeting people online are gonna be meeting other young people. You're gonna be forming a relationship. Um, with lots of people, probably pretty fast. Your trajectory will probably then lead you to go to a face to face support group, um, where you'll, um, meet other young people and you'll develop a network of people that you can trust when you reflect back on, say your own teenagehood and then you look at you know what's happening now When? When When people [00:20:30] have got, you know, the Internet from the age of 10. How do you think it's changed people's development? And I guess I'm talking more. I'm thinking more on the line of, you know, like for like a AAA Rainbow person. How do you think it's It's massive. I think it's I think the Internet will have massively changed, um, the development for rainbow young people. Um primarily because media has such a profound effect on all of our lives. And if we look back at the media innovations, we had the telegraph [00:21:00] which enabled people to communicate, you know, quickly from village to village and then the telephone, which enabled us to form strong relationships. Um, we've had the novel, you know, which is a media, and we forget that books are media and all media innovations change what we can do. Um, the internet changes what we can do because it has shifted our broadcasting model from one to many to 1 to 1. [00:21:30] And so that means that as a as a consumer of media. I can I can grab all sorts of stuff myself. And I think for Rainbow Youth this is really important because it means that we're no longer subject to what corporations or national broadcasters decide as relevant information. Instead, we become the consumer of information that we can choose. So that means you're not left wondering if there are other [00:22:00] rainbow people out there like me. Um, you're not left wondering what does sex look like for someone like me? Um, what does relationships look like for someone with me? You have the ability to search that stuff out on the Internet. Um, equally, you have the ability to broadcast that information out on the Internet. Um, you can do all sorts of video blogs about growing up as a rainbow person. You can, um, do your own self help site about [00:22:30] common questions around sexuality for young people. That's that participatory aspect of the Internet fundamentally changes the proposition for this generation of young people, and it doesn't always go. Um, media effects are neither positive nor negative. Um, there will be some great things about that, and there will be some really negative things about that. The great things are access to information. The negative things are the quality of that information. Um and, [00:23:00] um, and that very much talks to, you know, developing critical thinking skills, getting multiple references for things, checking stuff out, talking with friends and also being really careful about what you in turn post online. Um, and that's where some of the negative stuff comes in around cyberbullying and electronic harassment that the plus side of this technology also enables. It enables people to easily send out some [00:23:30] very negative and harmful stuff about young people and about particular young people to their peers. Well, maybe let's let's talk about. And I'm certainly not wanting to kind of dwell on the just the some of the disadvantages of technology. But maybe looking at some of the things that are happening and looking at some of the ways that we can cope with with those kind of things, it's really fascinating, actually, um, considering how, um how electronic harassment, [00:24:00] um, affects rainbow young people. You're very true in saying that mobile phones are kind of the 24 7 thing. It's, um, in some of my research, I talk with young people in focus groups, and they compared their mobile phones to their heart as their analogy. And when their parents took their mobile phones away, they felt like their heart was being taken away. Um, and young people will also report that being [00:24:30] harassed on a mobile phone can be much more distressing than being harassed on the Internet. Because it is that single point of contact. It's this one number. It's with you all the time. Um, and that can make harassment on that particularly sensitive. Um, and one of the great things, though, is that mobile phones now present some great opportunities to manage some of the bullying in terms of a simple technical kind of function. And that is, um, a smartphone [00:25:00] will enable you to block particular numbers so that you can't receive the messages. And if you have a particular network provider, for instance, Vodafone, you can text that the number that is bullying you to a blacklist code that will enable you to prevent that number from contacting you in the future. And that's something that you can Google online to find more out about. But the reality is, though, that, um, that harassment online and on mobile [00:25:30] phones is still harassment. It's, um, actually something that no one deserves to experience. And the next step really is. If, um, blocking isn't comfortable for that young person, then we get into other ways of managing it. I should say that in my research, I found that no technical intervention was, um, more likely to resolve a cyberbullying situation. So it had no positive or negative [00:26:00] effect in actually sorting out a bullying scenario, so I wouldn't recommend it is the is the outcome from that? And in fact, the only thing that really, um, is going to help manage a bullying situation is finding an adult who can help. Um, and that's something that's really difficult to hear because unfortunately, so many schools, um, are struggling to manage bullying. Um, a lot [00:26:30] of teachers aren't well resourced. A lot of schools aren't well resourced to deal with bullying, and this means that for young people, the key task isn't just to find an adult that you trust. It's to find an adult who's going to be effective at managing the bullying. Um, this means someone who will listen to you who won't jump in to say that they'll take control of the situation. Um, they very much partner with you in dealing with it. [00:27:00] Um, that adult will also, um, understand that, um, taking the technology off you is not the solution. Um, from what we know, um, technology for adolescent young people is like oxygen. Um, developing your social relationships is the critical task. You do that through social networking and through your technology. If you don't have access to that, [00:27:30] you're going to be massively disadvantaged. And so young people will be wary about telling an adult who will suggest that they remove their technology or will instead confiscate it from them because they believe that they've been and that the technology is the problem. Uh, when in reality, the technology isn't the problem. It's the person doing the harassment. Who is the problem? So critical is finding an adult who will listen will respond. Um, and that means engaging authorities who can [00:28:00] make a difference in the school. That's the deputy principal, the principal. And it's about ensuring that the school follows its bullying, um, policy and process. That's all very fine and well for young people who are bullied by someone at school and from my research, around half of all young people are bullied by someone at school with them. So that's actually a great whack of people for young people who are bullied by someone outside of their school. I think the critical thing is, if they're bullied by someone at another [00:28:30] school, to if they've got a good adult that they trust at their school to ask them to get involved and try and engage the other school. And if that's not possible, the next step to do is to contact the police, um, and talk about harassment. If at any stage a young person receives threats of harm saying things like, I'm gonna kick you, I'm gonna kill you. Um, I'm gonna stab you, Um, that reaches the level of, um, criminal [00:29:00] conduct, and that's when the police can become involved. And that stuff is really critical. Of course, other support services like Net safe are there as well. But I think it doesn't when we when we deal with cyber bullying that involves someone not at the same school as that young person, it's really tricky, and I would encourage those young people to sort of explore ways that they can minimise contact with those young people, particularly physically if they're worried for their safety. To contact the police, [00:29:30] um, and to engage as many adults as possible who they trust, who can make a difference to do something well, there's also a role for young people themselves to play in, um, bullying and harassment. Um, that is when young people, instead of being bystanders to harassment, are able to become upstairs and really take action to help young people who are being targeted unfairly with harassment. Um, and that can [00:30:00] mean, um anonymously forwarding content to someone at school, um, a deputy principal or a principal who again, they trust to do something effective. It can mean simply contacting the person who's being harassed and bullied and saying that they've seen the bullying and harassment, and they're very sorry that this is happening and that they support them. They don't need to go head to head with the people doing the bullying and harassment. In fact, sometimes that can mean that they themselves [00:30:30] become the targets of bullying and harassment, and that's not always recommended. But what they can do is they can let the person being bullied know that they're on their side, that these people are being unfair and that they have support. And they can offer to help them find an adult who they can work with to deal with the issue. Isn't it one of the things, though, like, say, with, with text bullying that it is almost like a silent form of bullying? That actually, maybe it's only the person that's getting the [00:31:00] texts that knows the extent of That's a really good point bullying. So I mean, yeah. No, you're right. You're absolutely right. Bystanders are really only able to, um, do something when they actually see the the bullying. And so this most often happens in, um, Internet forms of bullying. So where, UM, hate pages are put up about a young person or, um, form spring, which is another site where you can set up a A survey so often people will set up [00:31:30] a survey saying, You know how gay is, John and um, they'll send that around the class and get people to fill that in. So when you see those things, obviously you can do something for a rainbow person who's being bullied on the Internet on a mobile phone, and they're the only ones getting it. It's really important that they keep a record of all of those messages. They don't delete them. Um, and if you do delete them, make sure you write down the date and time that they were received. Um, and try and keep as much of a record as possible. And take that [00:32:00] into an adult. Who can trust who you can trust, who can do something or to the police, particularly if you get any um, threatening messages. It's really important to save them on your phone and take those to the police, um, directly, Um, so they can see and they have the evidence because that's what they need before they can do anything. It's not enough for you to say that you received a message and not have the proof, so that's key. But if you are being harassed, um, as a as a young person, [00:32:30] it's really important that you seek help, Um, for that, and I would advise, um, young people to talk to friends that they trust who can help them find an adult who can do something positive. Um, And there are also helplines like Net safe and no bully. And, of course, gay line and lesbian line. Who can help out as well? In the interviews you've conducted, Um, did did the participants go and seek [00:33:00] help? Did they kind of speak up and say, Yeah, it's fascinating. Um, a lot of young people sought help for some of their, um, for some of their experiences of harassment and bullying, and, um, and in some of those instances, they, um they really got some short shrift from the people who they were working with. Um, unfortunately, some people can believe that bullying is just a natural part of life. Therefore, in some ways it's OK, [00:33:30] and it's acceptable and often good. Um, but, um, as much as bullying may be something that happens a lot and therefore to be seen as natural, it's never good. And it's always, um, something that can be prevented. Um, so some young people also talked about teachers that they spoke to who really took their side, who went out of their way to make school safe and supportive for them. One of the critical messages that, uh, is [00:34:00] I think the most important thing that we must bear in mind is that all New Zealand schools are mandated to provide a safe and supportive environment for their students. And that means, um, that they need to be free from violence. And that means also violence that happens outside of the school that comes into the school ground. So any text bullying or cyber bullying that happens outside of the school time is still relevant to the school because it's still [00:34:30] affects that young person's ability to feel safe at school. If you're being text bullied at home and then you get to school and you see those same people in your class, that affects how you can feel safe and supportive. And we know that for you to learn well and to achieve, you need to be comfortable at school. We've been talking about bullying, and I'm just wondering, can you give me some examples of of of what bullying actually means in this kind of digital world? Great. Um, bullying is actually a jargony term, Um, and it refers [00:35:00] to repeated acts of intentional aggression. So, um, bullying has to be repeated. It's got to be something that you intend to harm someone with, um, it can't be sort of accidental, Like you can often accidentally hurt someone's feelings. That's not bullying. Um, but, um, and it often involves an imbalance of power. So that sounds kind of, um, very Jakey, too. And that can simply be, um, if there are more than one person bullying the someone, So a group [00:35:30] a gang up sort of scenario, Or if, um, someone who is significantly physically stronger than someone else, um, gangs up on someone, um, or someone who's able to, um, you know, use some dimension of, um, power, which is really, um, which puts them above someone else. And they they use that in addition to their ability to, um, repeatedly harass [00:36:00] and harm someone. So that's actually bullying. And quite a lot of the things that we call text bullying and cyberbullying don't meet that definition. And that's because it's difficult to prove repetitive harassment online and on mobile phones. And that's because some of the bullying can involve tens of people sending someone a message once or twice. So they haven't been text bullied by someone repeatedly. They've been text bullied by multiple [00:36:30] people once, um, conversely, um, someone can set up one hate page about someone, but multiple people can view it, but you can never know how many people have seen it. So for me, I talk about distressing electronic harassment as a way of sort of understanding the whole kind of thing. Um, bearing in mind that also, lots of young people experience harassment that isn't distressing. They brush it off, and it is genuinely not a bother. And [00:37:00] and we know that around half of young people say that about some of the forms of harassment they experience. So I'm really interested in the distressing stuff what young people say upset them. I think that's important. And that can then take, um, a whole range of forms. Um, but the top sort of eight forms are being sent mean and nasty comments directly. Um, usually on a text message or on an instant message or on an email. Um, having [00:37:30] rumours spread about you and that can be done in multiple ways. Um, often, um, you know, usually online, um, other ways, um are having, um, threatening comments made about you, um, to you so that you're going to be physically harmed in some way. Um, other things are when people take photos of you and spread those around in, um, in bullying ways. Um, other ways are social [00:38:00] isolation and social exclusion. So if everyone in the class belongs to a particular Facebook group, um, for instance, which is a group on Facebook where you can join up and you're not invited Invited to that class, you're being socially excluded. And people do that to exclude your ability to form relationships, which is a really powerful way of harming a young developing adolescent, because that's the critical thing that you need to do as an adolescent is to form your relationships. So in [00:38:30] addition to that, we have, um, some of the more obscure forms of harassment, um, sometimes called happy slapping, which is where you may be physically assaulted by someone and and that's videoed. And then that video is put up of you. Um, that's not as common as you'd think. Um, it would be given the amount of media kind of, um, kind of concern about that. But that definitely happens. And that that is, um can be particularly upsetting for young people, [00:39:00] too. Do you think it's it's kind of worse for like 10 people to be sending one message to somebody in a hate kind of based way, as opposed to one person continually hating on someone. It all comes down to the person ironically, I think, and it depends on their their trajectory. So if they've had lots of experiences of group bullying, they may either ironically be totally comfortable with it, or they may be particularly jaded by it, and they may find [00:39:30] it really, really difficult. So I suppose for me, um, I think that one of the challenges with the Internet and more digital technologies is it does really enable lots of people to become involved and to be bystanders to some of this bullying stuff. And I think that is likely to increase the distress because it means often bullying is about being humiliated. And when you're humiliated in front of more people, I imagine [00:40:00] the distress would be greater. But again, it really comes down to the individual person and how they perceive that and and what works for them. If the person, if one person was bullying them and that person was particularly high status probably stands to reason, too, that They're going to be spreading rumours in other ways, too. So they may be particularly wary of and be very distressed that someone who's of high status is bullying them. So it really depends on the young person. [00:40:30] Have you ever heard of things where it's been turned around the other way, where the bully has been inundated with people saying, Actually, you know, stop doing this. So you've actually kind of done a almost like a proactive bullying? Absolutely. Um, there's a lot of, um, there's a lot of work being done to to try and explore the role of bystanders so that people can turn it against, you know, the the person who's doing the harassing and [00:41:00] doing the bullying behaviour. Um, and I I've heard of some of that stuff happening quite often. What then? Um, a key way of doing that, though in a way that doesn't harm the person doing the bullying behaviour is to to really set up norms that sort of say this behaviour is inappropriate and so that the challenge to with that stuff is to make sure that the person doing the bullying doesn't suddenly become the person being bullied. Um, [00:41:30] and in the in the research, it's clear that around half of the people who experience who are involved in cyber bullying also experience being bullied. So there there's a there's a big crossover called the Bully Victim kind of crossover. Um, but it is absolutely the case that bystanders can play a role in saying that the sort of behaviour is not acceptable. But the key thing is to make sure that the norms of the school support that in a way which [00:42:00] is positive and doesn't make the person doing the bullying behaviour feel particularly, um, even more vulnerable, which must be quite hard in the in the sense that in general media, there's very much a thing of kind of name and shame, absolutely. And I think one of the things that that I found really fascinating and really helpful when I was working in this area was understanding that bullying can only exist in a social environment which [00:42:30] enables it to exist. And so instead of us focusing our energy on the person doing the bullying or the person being bullied, it's really critical that we set up social environments that don't enable bullying behaviour to thrive. Um and that's where schools and youth organisations have a key role to play in setting up policies that are very clear about what sorts of behaviour are acceptable involving young people in the production [00:43:00] of those policies. So that young people have a voice and explaining about the sort of society that they want to live in in their school and in their youth groups, um, and then having clear places for people to go to when bullying behaviour happens so that this behaviour can be very effectively and very quickly eliminated so it doesn't become a norm that enables someone to become a bully and someone conversely to be bullied. Unfortunately, we know that the story isn't great for young people [00:43:30] who do bullying behaviours. Um, it's not great for people who are bullied, um, they're more likely to experience a lot of negative psychological outcomes, but not necessarily. A good number of young people who are bullied will shrug it off. And, um, and they'll be fine. Some young people will experience some really difficult things and for young people that are experiencing a range of challenges that can also produce some suicidal thoughts because it can feel like everything's getting a bit [00:44:00] too much. But also we know that young people who bully are more likely to report depression. They're more likely to be involved in future crime. Um, these are young people that are equally kind of struggling. Um, and the critical thing really is to enable an environment which can support all young people to kind of achieve their potential. Um, and that's where I think some of the the key stuff comes [00:44:30] in about supporting schools to make a safer environment and supporting social networking sites to make their environment safe as well. Um, by providing clear policies, being very, um, quick to react and not naming and shaming people, instead exploring that bullying isn't something that exists solely within the individuals. It's people who bully bully because of their life experiences. And, um, often [00:45:00] because they are really struggling themselves and they're looking to find a way to feel better about themselves or to. And they do that by disempowering others and putting themselves on top. You mentioned earlier about that. You know, one of the one of the things that probably adults would do would be say, Well, just switch your phone off. Give me the phone. You know, um, so you and and instantly you cut that line of communication off. But in doing that, you're you're kind of almost ostracising the young person from their social [00:45:30] group. That's I think one of the most critical critical messages in the in the bullying literature for me around cyberbullying is that taking young people's technology away in the hope of kind of removing, um the harm from harassment also takes away all their positive social supports. Um, and that's something that's really easy to forget. And and but it's massively critical. Um, the Internet and mobile phones provide young people [00:46:00] with access to people who will harass them, but also tell the young people that will provide them support the young people who will invite them to parties who will invite them to the movies. The young people who will share with them gossip about what thing they've seen on YouTube. What happened on Gossip Girl last night? Um, all of the social interaction that they desperately need to develop, um, as human beings. Um, so taking that away from them really puts them on the back foot massively and that will be associated with some [00:46:30] form of anxiety. It's difficult for you if you're a young person and you you don't know consciously. But instinctively you'll know that you want to find more out about the world. You want to have friendships, you want to be social. And these tools are key for you being social for Rainbow youth, who may be at a school where they don't have many friends, Um, these tools may be critical in connecting them [00:47:00] to other people, um, who can provide the supports that they can't get at school. And I think in that way they can be even more powerful, um, as a resiliency tool for young people. So taking the technology away is one of the the worst things you can do. That's not to say that some young people may say they want to break, you know, and they just want to put the phone down for a weekend, and if they want to do that and on their own, you know that feels right for them, then that's that's what [00:47:30] should happen. Um, but it's definitely not about coming in over the top and, ironically, for an adult to do that for a teenager, they'll simply, um, access the Internet elsewhere. They'll go to the library. They'll go to a friend's house, they'll go to an Internet cafe. They'll go to a gaming salon. Um, and, um, if you take their cell phone away, they'll go to the supermarket and buy one for $20. So, um, it's really, um we're dreaming. If we think there's any point in trying to control young people's access to technology, [00:48:00] Um, you'll just drive the use underground and really lose an opportunity to be there as a partner and mentor and supporter for that young person. You also mentioned earlier about the idea that, you know, um, teenagers are thinking that they, you know, it's their heart. Their you know, their smartphone is, you know, part of them is there, um, any kind of movement towards trying to get, um, teenagers to see that actually, you can [00:48:30] live maybe with less technology, or, you know, you don't need to check every five minutes or here I am sounding very but you know, or or is it Is everyone just going? Yeah, this is great. We need to embrace this as much as we can. Or are there other movements saying, Well, actually use it, but it doesn't need to control your life. I don't I don't, Um I don't hear a lot of that movement within the current, um, generation. I know that, um, I know that there have been [00:49:00] books written about some of this stuff, and I wonder if there's probably, um, a little bit of a honeymoon phase that we're going through with some of this technology. The research definitely demonstrates that as much as we think we're really great at multitasking, we're not, um, we we do have very limited ability to attend to multiple things at once. And so while young people can do this and they can look pretty good at it, um, the reality is that they would probably do better if you know [00:49:30] you're going for a block of studying to turn the phone off. On the flip side, it can be really useful to have you know, an instant message of blocks up there and to be collaborating with your colleagues when you're studying for things. So So it does kind of depend. One of the things that's very difficult is that these technologies are commercial technologies. They're made to be therefore very entertaining. And in some ways, um, incredibly playable and doable. [00:50:00] And in that sense, um, their business model builds in a certain level of kind of addictive behaviour. Um and so I think you have to have be a pretty strong young person to be able to withstand the, um the kind of the onslaught of the the technical engineering around this stuff. When you look at your own use of, uh, smartphones, Internet, social media, does it be any relationship to that of, say, like a 20 [00:50:30] year old? No, I think it used to I would I I pride myself as being one of the first people to have a Facebook account when they when they went, um, when they enabled people outside of the US school to have one. And I was one of the first people to get a Twitter account. And but my usage of those is so sporadic because I simply find that I don't have the time to do that in addition to the other things. But that reflects that, um, I'm probably in a different phase of my [00:51:00] life where, um I have. I'm not seeking to develop a lot of social relationships. I have friends that I've had for lots of years. Um, I don't need to regularly touch base with them. I'm in a full time job where I have very little time to to do some of that stuff. And I have a partner. So some of that stuff will, I think, be dependent upon your kind of life circumstances. Um, and earlier, I would have used this stuff a lot. Um, but now I simply [00:51:30] don't have the time.

IRN: 728
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089526
TITLE: Peter Lineham - Auckland Community Church
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Peter Lineham
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 2010s; Anglican Church; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland Community Church; Bob Scott; Brian Tamaki; Christianity; Destiny Church; Family First NZ; Hero (Auckland); John Key; Kim Benton; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Metropolitan Community Church; National Party; Open Brethren; Paul Reeves; Peter Lineham; Presbyterian Church of Aotearoa New Zealand; Pride parade; St Matthew-in-the-City; Troy Perry; Vaughan Shepherd; Whakahuihui Vercoe; billboards; church; civil rights; civil unions; coming out; community; gay; gender identity; history; homosexual law reform; human rights; lesbian; marriage; marriage equality; relationships; religion; sexuality; spirituality; straight
DATE: 3 March 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Peter talks about his religious and spiritual journey and how he came to Auckland Community Church.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So my name is Peter Lineham, and I've just concluded a period of seven years as chair of Auckland Community Church. And, um, I've been involved in Auckland Community Church for 13 years now. Uh, which is not anything like the whole life of the church, of course, but like a lot of people, I became involved in Auckland Community Church at the point when my church community was growing extremely suspicious of me and I was being edged [00:00:30] out. Um, I was later to be kicked out, but I was originally edged out and I needed somewhere safe to go. And I remember the first time I actually first time I went to Metropolitan Community Church, which was then meeting in Pitt Street Methodist Church and I went there. And while the people were very friend, it wasn't just it felt a little bit. There were some some unusual factors. And so the next week I went to Auckland Community Church, [00:01:00] felt very at home, and, um, had been going every week ever since. Basically, when you say suspicions for with your previous church what I mean, what were they what were they saying or doing? So I was I belong to an Open Brethren Church. So this is a fundamentalist or a conservative church, although within the Brethren Spectrum, one of the most open churches around and they were about any person [00:01:30] with even a gay identity because that was defiling and they were anxious that, uh, even the identity would lead to sexual involvement. And they were most concerned at the risk of that. And, um, at a very early stage, I went to a function at Saint Luke's re era, which were a photograph and a photograph. [00:02:00] I was in a photograph in Express, and I was It was in a church building, but this photograph was passed on from somebody in the Brethren Movement to the elders at Eden at the at the At the Brethren Church, um, of which I had just finished being chair of it. Do you understand? And this photograph was produced as evidence that I was dangerous property. I pointed out I was at a church service, but that didn't seem to make a great [00:02:30] deal of difference. So that was That was the kind of risk involved that there's a fair measure of high alarm that anybody would mingle with gay people now. There were a lot of exceptions to that individually. But as an organisation, that was their That was their stance. What was that like for you personally knowing that that somebody's actually, you know, trying to kind of oust you from from a a church? It's an [00:03:00] extraordinarily difficult experience. It's a tangled and confusing experience. It was made much worse because for reasons that I do not fully understand, a young man, newly married man in the church made an extraordinary accusation that I had tried to kiss him at Massey University and this was a complete fabrication. But of course, that made my position even more untenable. And so [00:03:30] the church, which always did things very properly, um, sort of set up an investigating committee. So it was a very uncomfortable position for me. Um, and what I found was that I had set up on my bicycle to go to church, and most of the time I couldn't make it there. I just I just couldn't get there. And if I did get there, I spent I would just sit and basically [00:04:00] cry through the services, so that was the sort of thing that was going on. And this is me, you know, a fairly stable, sensible sort of person. So it was a difficult scene and I had great support from people within that church. But that didn't prevent the structure. And finally, But this was somewhat later, Fi, I Finally, when Kevin appeared on the scene, I was given a letter which said we'd like you to change churches and we'd like to send [00:04:30] a message to the church. You're going to saying that you're a wonderful person and we totally support you, but we're unable to give you any pastoral support. Uh, so it was a kind of excommunication, and that's OK. I mean, that they did it in a very nice way. So I changed to Ponsonby Baptist and All Saints Church in the morning because I'm a pretty churchy person. But I'd already been involved for a long time. By that stage in Auckland Community Church. Where does your involvement with the church in general come from? So I'm raised. [00:05:00] You have to understand the Brethren. The Brethren is a is a world. It's it's not. It's not religion. It's your world. So if you're raised as I was in a Brethren family in a small country community and all your relations and the church. That's what that's that is, on the whole, your life. And you live in that world and you step outside it to some extent. And but you're confident in stepping outside that you've got a secure base [00:05:30] from which you can step outside it. And I mean, I had fine parents who and in the end, although there was a few changes of church along the way find support of churches that were very happy for me to step outside it on the basis that it was, you know, it was a secure place inside. Um, but clearly, you know, there are some limits around that, and that's just the way it is. So what was it like? I mean, if if your whole life is based around this to to then suddenly [00:06:00] not have it there or to have people actually kind of trying to push you away. Oh, I mean, this is a traumatic experience. Um, very, very, very difficult. You understand that I was also one of the best known figures in the evangelical world at the time, so I was on the board of the Bible, College of New Zealand of Script Union in New Zealand of tertiary students Christian Fellowship, um, et cetera, a tier fund. And they all asked me to leave their boards [00:06:30] or Yeah, I offered my resignation, and they enthusiastically accepted it. So I mean, that was all part of this is all part of the process of, uh uh and, uh, funny enough, I was doing some research over in the LA College Library reading the old copies of Challenge magazine, uh, which is the evangelical or fundamentalist magazine. And I discovered I'd written a letter defending gay issues to the Maga to the magazine. What? I not being a regular reader of this magazine? I wasn't aware of [00:07:00] an astonishing string of letters that followed. Um, I was trying to investigate my current book on Destiny Church, but I found I was investigating the way that I was excluded. Basically. See, that's not I understand that I mean, I was a high profile person, so that was sort of more more evident, maybe than for most. But for anybody in a Catholic or in an evangelical or conservative Christian background, [00:07:30] that's the experience they'll have. And there is an enormous feeling of being orphaned, you know, and really losing your place in the world. And it's a very curious situation to be in during times of things like, uh, gay liberation in the seventies, the homosexual law reform in the eighties. Did that kind of stuff have impact on you and your relationship with the Brethren? Uh, yes. [00:08:00] But I kept a low profile in that period. I mean, I watched in, in, in Christchurch and and in Palmerston North, these things were not quite as prominent, shall we say, as as they were in Auckland and I played a a quiet role, shall we say in in these circumstances, I was actually overseas in the year of law reform and on a on a leave, So I was almost totally unaware of of some of those things going on. Well, I mean, I was aware from a distance, but when I came [00:08:30] back, it was all over and done and dusted. So I was away from mid 1985 to mid 1996. You see, did you ever have any internal conflict between the the the kind of religious elements or your religious life and and homosexuality. Oh, well, of course, there was an awful lot to sort out. But, I mean, I've been sorting it out for my whole life, you know? You understand. And that's often true of a lot of gay people, uh, with religious backgrounds that there's a constant debate. [00:09:00] I didn't, you know, go through the experience that a lot of my friends seem to have gone through of self hatred. Um, II, I I'm intrigued that I basically accepted who I was sometimes found a curious set of sort of non contentious words for it. Um, you know, I wasn't inclined to get married or, you know, sort of strange things like this, Um, which, uh, afterwards I discovered that everybody knew my cover, but I didn't know that at [00:09:30] the time, you know, And I think they were quite content as long as you didn't use words that that were sort of dangerous. And I think that that's the way it goes there. That's the curious ambiguity of sometimes churches that certain words are dangerous. And if you can choose other words, they're not dangerous. [00:10:00] Very strange. Can you give me some examples. Oh, I think around I I If you take the whole issue of marriage, breakups and the like Similarly, you know, so long as you can somehow be, be the good party in a in a marriage break up or so long as in one sense or another, you can show due humility about what has happened. People are surprisingly, will willing [00:10:30] to accommodate that. And I think the reason for that is that typically, even fundamentalist Church is a bit like Catholic churches. Take a fairly ordinary sample of people you know. They're not particularly an educated group. They're they're, yeah, average communities who are who are very keen to attract people to come to their services. And so they come with lots and lots of staff, and what [00:11:00] they want is for people not to cause trouble by their past. So So as long as you've sorted your past out, you know it's OK to have a past, but it's not OK if it's a present, you see, and that's the complexity of the situation. What was it like then to go to a church that had kind of lots of openly gay people in it? Well, I mean, I can recall very vividly the first Sunday because, strangely enough, I had been leading [00:11:30] Auckland Community Church meets in the evening. Most churches don't meet in the evening. So it was kind of convenient. I could escape without anybody sort of knowing I was there. And the thing was, when I got there that Sunday night, I immediately recognised about four people, including some with a Brethren connection and one who'd even been in the service where I had actually been leading the service that Sunday [00:12:00] morning in in the church. And I felt like bright lights were on me and tape recorders were on me and I was exposed, and this was incredibly dangerous. And then I realised well, but then that must be true of them as well. Um, and that was a really quite quite surreal moment in some ways. But I realised that a lot of people there were kind of there because you [00:12:30] could get away with being there, and you might well have a double life. I'm not. I've never been comfortable with a double life, you understand? So I mean I. I was not frightened to tell people I was going to Auckland Community Church. They weren't comfortable to hear it. Um, but, uh so that was quite interesting even today, you know, at a community church, we get people who make it as far as the door, but won't come in and sit down because they're very, very nervous of being seen. So that [00:13:00] is a That's the kind of extent to which there can be powerful coercive pressures. So tell me about that first service. How How was it for you? Oh, I mean, I. I think the service was pretty much like all Auckland Community Church services. Not exactly exciting. I mean, Auckland Community Church does a kind of pseudo Anglican service. And I mean, to my mind, it's not how any decent religious service should be at all. I mean, I would like something much more lively and engaging. [00:13:30] I would like sermons that people find interesting and that they touch on hot issues and that they sort of go inside your being. But a good deal of Auckland Community Church is saying, um, sang a liturgy, Um, and, uh, listening to a somewhat, you know, one of these Anglican style sermons, which is usually you know 15 minutes long, um, and usually says nothing at all very much, and I found this tedious in the extreme. But then [00:14:00] we went, as we always do at a community church, into a stood in a circle for communion. And after you receive communion, you are embraced by the person who's given you communion, and the person who's come to you prays for you. And at that moment, I realised there was something very deeply affirming that they were affirming me for me and accepting me from the very outset, and I found that as many people have found at Auckland Community Church, [00:14:30] that's that's a very, very moving part of the service. Um, and so that was all right and I didn't go back to. I mean, I went back to the other church in the morning, but this immediately became important to me. Can you describe the congregation? What's the makeup? The A Community Church congregation changes quite a lot as circumstances develop, but it's typically people who I mean predominantly. [00:15:00] For a start, they're single. This is quite an interesting aspect to Auckland Community Church. Quite a lot of them, like a lot of churches are older, so they're over 50. Um, and quite a lot of them have known each other for a long, long time. And there's a friendship and support and community there are. So that's one group when people become couples, I mean by and large, there's only two or three couples where the couples [00:15:30] come regularly to church. My partner cannot stand Auckland Community Church and he will come on occasions. But he he can do a very funny take off of ah man. And he just goes into hysterics of laughter. Whereas he quite enjoys poo be Baptist, which from his Chinese background is kind of more familiar. And he's more comfortable with that. Um, but and and and he does this very funny thing where he says, Holy, holy, holy! And he thinks that's just [00:16:00] so funny. Um, and so he finds the liturgy absurd. And I think to my that's part of the problem of all community church. It's into a warp, which it does need to get out of in some ways. And I think one of the brilliant things about Vaughn is the new chair is that he is gonna try and not just out of that. I tried for seven years and found it very difficult. We've made a little bit of progress, not enough now. So there's that aspect then. Secondly, a bit more about the community. Then we always have these [00:16:30] people who come in and need Auckland Community Church for what you might call their transition into identifying themselves as GL BT people. And the church can help them immensely now. Typically, those people we we don't see them for for a long time. You know, we we help them for, say, three or four months, and then they're ready to stand on their own. They find a partner, they become more confident in going to [00:17:00] the clubs or something like that. And the religion that's been used to help them suppress their identity now isn't necessary to them. And that's fun. I mean, I because I think sometimes religion keeps people from discovering themselves. I mean, it shouldn't do that, but sometimes that's and that's all right, because they need to move on. So many a person in that context has come and visited me here in my house and has wanted to talk over the Bible verses that attack gay people and we've sat and [00:17:30] talked and gone through it because what I am very anxious about is what you might call the suicide threat for the person who feels that they've committed the unforgivable sin. Uh, they've had sex with a person of the same, um, agenda, and they're going to be cursed and something vile is gonna happen to them. And they they loathe themselves and they want to hear. Are these verses going to destroy me? You know, am I going to be bashed by God who is so angry with me at the moment? [00:18:00] And yet I need this. I want this. I found something about myself that I needed to find out and I I knew it, but I didn't know what to do with it. And quite a lot of young people are in that context, and I go through the verses with them, and I suggest there's others ways to look at these verses, and I suggest that we're not bound up by Old Testament rules which were given for a totally different purpose, and and after a while, that gets through to them and they become more confident in themselves and If there's [00:18:30] a real rich faith in them, they'll they'll find a church which will accept them as they are, um, or they'll stay at a community church. But quite a lot of them are young and they'll they'll break through that, and that's fine. And there's been some wonderful stories about people who've made a fantastic transition, and I keep up with them on and off. But they're not anywhere near Auckland Community Church now, and they probably laugh a bit about Auckland Community Church. And when they get when they get a partner, I mean, [00:19:00] Sunday night's far too good to give up. You know, that's their last chance to get ready for the week. So So it doesn't work for them either. So I think, and I think the third thing is culturally in terms of relevance. You know, we're still in the hymn singing mode, and I do think this is, I mean, who sings hymns these days. I mean, the churches that I went to were far more culturally on the wavelength of young people. They knew what music young people liked, [00:19:30] and they produced their own Christian version of that music, and I think see. Part of the absurdity of this whole situation is, I reckon, for example, I mean, I'm not Pentecostal, but I do think the Pentecostal style of worship is quite gay, you know? And I think you know, a lot of gay people love dancing, and they love getting into it and things like that. And and this is why a lot of them remain undercover in Pentecostal churches because it's totally their scene. And I had one man who came [00:20:00] to see me here, and he went to a certain, uh, well known Pentecostal church in town. And I talked and talked to him and I nearly I thought I'd got through. And then I received an email from him saying, Please remove all details about me from your phone. That's all right. But you see, it wasn't right for him because nothing had changed. He was going out having [00:20:30] casual sex in the bog, you know? I mean, that was his way of finding the escape. So what was what was good about that? And I mean, this is the tragic situation that you've got to deal with who you are, and Auckland Community Church stands for really part of the whole pride thing of the GL BT community that there is nothing to be ashamed of. Here is where we should be. And here this GL BT community [00:21:00] needs us because discovering that you're gay does not solve all your problems. You know, you've still got that loneliness or the bit when your partner leaves you or the bit when things are tough and you're on your own. And it's still got the kind of issues of faith still nagging around inside. And we say the two's gotta be brought together. Got a bit carried away there. But so So you came to the [00:21:30] the Auckland Community Church in the early 2000 in 2000. Prior to that, um, do you do you know the history? I do know the history of Auckland Community Church because I'm a historian. I'm kind of fascinated by this story. One day I'm gonna write it up and I've sort of started a couple of times and given up. But there is quite a good history on our website by one of our previous members who's gone overseas now. Um and I mean it is a fascinating story because this is before law reform. It all begins, so it begins [00:22:00] a bit about Saint Matthews will make sense of this. Saint Matthews was always the kind of risque church, Um, but it was a down in the dumps rundown church in the days when nobody lived in the central city and so and before the before the advent of the casino. So there was talk of bulldozing Saint Matthew's down that beautiful church. But the thing was, it's it's stone, and the limestone had the [00:22:30] seeped with water, and it was sort of in real risk of falling down. And there was AAA vicar brought in from Australia, who started this kind of radical line. He had once been a very strong and impassioned low church centre of Auckland, which fancied itself as the Auckland Cathedral. But they built a cathedral somewhere else. And, um so that was about that time and all this was going on. And so I [00:23:00] he was on the side of causes. And remember, this was the seventies and early eighties when causes were all around and people were fighting the Rainbow Warrior. You know, there was all this stuff going on the nuclear nuclear Free Pacific and so that the Mr Matthews was engaged in that. And they started noticing that a group of gay men had been coming along quite quietly to the service. And so an invitation went out. [00:23:30] Um, now I think a request went in, saying, Could we would you be prepared for us to get together? And so they asked for one of the clergy at Saint Matthew's to meet with them on a weekly basis for a little kind of group. They could sit and talk, and this group began in the early eighties so slowly, this little group was nurtured into shape [00:24:00] and as it slowly began to form and hold these events, I think down in the basement of Saint Matthew's as I understand it. And it was meeting regularly in that in that period, then came about discussion about whether they could begin to hold a hold a service. And really, this was extraordinarily courageous of the church to authorise that on Sunday nights in the main church at [00:24:30] Saint Matthew's, they would hold a GL BT service sponsored by the church itself. But open to any of the GL BT people of Auckland, Well, you can imagine at that stage when I mean, what was there there were There were these famous gay night clubs, but not much on Sunday night. So you had, you know, old drag queens, and you had a very colourful assortment of people turning up and coming along to the service, [00:25:00] and everybody was nervous about police raids. But in fact, I don't think there was ever much this was at the stage when, um I mean, what would they accuse people of they were just meeting for a church service. So, um, but of course, there was a lot of criticism from surrounding churches who wanted nothing to do with it. But then came law reform. And so from the time of law reform, it was much more easy to hold these public services. And there began to be discussions with a number of key people, Benton [00:25:30] and the like. And to hold to that that perhaps Saint Matthews could actually designate someone as the kind of pastor of this church. So they with the vicar of Saint Matthew's part of it, they began setting up a little council to run these services. And then they heard of Metropolitan Community Church, um, in the States. So this is interesting. Troy Perry had come [00:26:00] out. I was reading a book about this the other day. Troy Perry came out and and started the Metropolitan Community Church even before Stonewall. So what date is Stonewall or 80? No, no, no, No. 6. 70 69 16. I think he wrote it in 69 and it was 70 that stonewall or something like that. But it was a year beforehand. So MC C by this stage had developed quite a reputation. [00:26:30] So they invited and made contact with MC C, which by this stage had a presence in Australia. So MC C said it was willing to send in effect a missionary to look after this church community. And so that brought about the next stage in the story of gay Christians at worship in in Auckland. So the group a pastor was sent from, uh uh [00:27:00] the states and he came out and services seem to continue as normal. And then they discovered quite a sharp divergency. I mean, MC C is is a separate denomination. It ordains its own clergy. It isn't, you know I mean it. It it. You run by the MC C rules. Now, these folk, of course, were a kind of branch of an Anglican church, and they were pulling in all the sympathetic clergy. And there were [00:27:30] a lot of sympathetic clergy from around the town who loved coming to Auckland Community Church because it was their statement of support of the queer community. So there were rumblings. And then the concerned people, I think, went to the at Saint Matthew's and Sat. Mathews was quite concerned to hear that, in effect, they were actually sponsoring a separatist church community. So there was a showdown in 1979 [00:28:00] I think was the date. So the MC C folk, with their very lovely pastor, moved to, um Pitt Street Methodist and the group that remained behind organised themselves as Auckland Community Church. And that was the beginning of it. Um, in 1980 yeah, and so that church was with the cooperation of ministers [00:28:30] throughout Auckland and money fed in by the Presbyterians. This is a nice irony when you think of how the Presbyterians have ended up today, um, as well as support from from the Anglican Church and resolutions passed in the Auckland Synod and of support. Um uh, and with one of the Presbyterian ministers seconded to be part-time, pastor of the community, um began when reverted to to a form of worship where it would always be [00:29:00] clergy from a variety of backgrounds. No, there was no, There was no denomination that you belong to. You didn't give up your old identity, and the service was kind of eclectically like any any conservative but liberal church community. And that's the beginnings of the Auckland community Church story. Now, now, uh, to be fair to MC C they carried on meeting at Pitt Street and I saw them in Pitt Street in 2000, but they subsequently [00:29:30] moved to the the Friends Meeting House and are much, much smaller than they were. But during for many long years, Doug McGee, former Salvation Army officer um, was their pastor and, um Part-time pastor. And we've always had good and friendly relationships and often held one combined service a year. As I said, they they're much smaller today, and we've tended to grow, um, or remain stable in size. They're always changing over, Of course, [00:30:00] um, for the reasons I said so that's a bit of a interesting story. So are you also saying that prior to Auckland Community Church, well, and and also the MC C part as well in the late seventies, there was no other kind of, um, out, uh, gay worship group. Precisely that precisely that. But But of course, you will appreciate that This was [00:30:30] the day that these were the days when huge raging debates were taking place on theology and there were liberal churches in all the denominations. So Saint David's in, um Road, Pitt Street, Methodist Uh, Saint Matthew's were the three, along with the Unitarians, that the four maybe big, visible liberal churches that made a point of being [00:31:00] welcoming, um, to gay people, but absolutely no sort of public things. And the early pastors, even of Auckland Community Church were pretty quiet about their own sexuality because they needed to be in good standing with their respective, um, bishops and presbyteries and the like. And they, you know, those matters would have been rather concerning to the presbyteries. It was one thing to support poor gay Christians, you [00:31:30] know, But another thing to how far did you go and support until until law reform, That was the situation and at law at the time of law reform. Um, did the church, uh, actively promote? Oh, you need to understand that Auckland Community Church was one of the cornerstones of the gay world. [00:32:00] And I mean, of course, it wasn't everybody's cup of tea, and there were plenty of violently anti Christian gay people. I mean, there still are. I don't know. You read that extraordinary opinion piece in the In the Herald on Friday, and these sorts of things happen where Christian is everything associated with and with homophobia in this, and there were always people who thought that. But it's very, very interesting in terms of the kind of service sector of the gay community. It's [00:32:30] it's really for a long time, consisted of groups like Outline, Um, and it's in its previous name, um, the AIDS Foundation. And so Auckland Community Church has always been one of those things and see on World Aids Day. It's It's to ST Matthew's that everybody comes for this big combined kind of memorial, and we give up our service for that Sunday night and welcome in a vast crowd of people who wouldn't probably come near us at other times and, [00:33:00] you know, it's We're very much well known within the older parts of the gay community, um, less so the lesbian community. There's an interesting difference in this respect in that for many. I mean, I can't speak for women, but it it it strikes me that many lesbian women who could, perhaps if they chose it's not so unusual for two [00:33:30] women to live together. So if they come out as lesbian, this is This is a radical and political step, and it's it. It may be much more associated with the denouncing of Christianity than for for gay men. Strangely enough, I. I mean, it would take a bit more untangling and a bit more research to work that one out, but, uh, it so we've always had a much larger proportion of men than women in our service. There's always been some women in our service, and [00:34:00] there's always I mean, historically, there were some very, very lovely people from Saint Matthews who were straight but who came regularly to the community, Um, and just were there and were supportive and very encouraging and and very loving you know, and that was wonderful for the community. A lovely couple, Heck and and Peggy were very familiar in the history of the church for many, many years. [00:34:30] And then there were other personalities who could be themselves at Auckland Community Church. But they had another existence as well. And, um so there was the famous case of Doc Martin, um, who was a very familiar former retired evangelical youth worker who was very deeply involved in the church from his retirement onwards. Um, [00:35:00] that would, for family reasons, that was kept to himself. And I think there probably are still people like that. And you were saying that the congregation is growing? Yes, it is quite striking that I mean, all churches have ups and downs, and a gay church has particular ups and downs and ebbs and, uh, and flows. But it did reach a pretty [00:35:30] low state in the early two thousands. And I think part of the factor was that it just got too introverted, you know? And there is a we aspect of of gay sensibility, which kind of adores high church prancing about, and I mean it can reach the point of silliness and especially as young people have no [00:36:00] connection with this. And, um, there was a real turnaround. And this we owe an enormous amount to one of our fine, great members. And that's the Reverend Bob Scott. And Bob Scott is a remarkable man who was outrageously gay, Um, as an Anglican minister for many years and, um, used to shock because you understand those. There was the time when gay people was so outrageous. [00:36:30] And he he was when he was in Auckland, uh was he was a notable figure in the Anglican church, and he shocked them to the core. But this was the time when Paul Reeves was the archbishop and was very, very sympathetic to gay people. And so, um, Archbishop Paul was totally detective and horrified by Bob at the same time. And then Bob went off to the World Council of Churches in Geneva, where he played a very interesting role [00:37:00] there. And then he came back in his retirement to Auckland and didn't like the state of the church. And Bob can say what he thinks and did, and we sorted ourselves out. It was very good for us. Um, so you know, you've got that aspect. And I mean, I have noticed that some of the service organisations of the gay community anyway have tended to decline. And I think one of the reasons for this is there isn't so strong a gay [00:37:30] community as there used to be. You know, once upon a time the gay community was nurtured in adversity and there were these great moments of pride and the hero parades when the gay community defied the world and the the Auckland Community Church donned angel wings and pranced down and slightly lewd, slightly fun, slightly outrageous singing hymns in a state of semi undress. You know, um, down the street, [00:38:00] um, challenging and shocking people. But the whole hero parade was a bit like that, you know, And there was this nurtured sense of community identity and adversity. Now, of course, it's now a very comfortable thing to be gay. And I mean, some of us have reflected that the recent pride march is a bit of an indication because, you know, the pride March went on agreement that it would be a nice acceptable for families to attend. No nudity. No, you know nothing to shock everything respectable and and and and nice. [00:38:30] And it was and it was delightful fun, you know? Um but But in such circumstances, to be honest, the gay world is now just a market. You know, like a lot of communities in New Zealand, of course, but the gay community is strikingly so is is a market that people target because the gay dollar is great to try to get people to spend. And it's especially for young gay people. It's just a great big consumer [00:39:00] consumer game where you know you, you go around and and plant and yourself, and, uh, it's as empty and vacuous as they come. In some ways, uh, and so quite a number of those warm, caring, community focused organisations have found it very hard because there's not many volunteers coming forward to do things. And I think we had to turn a corner and say, we really [00:39:30] can't afford just, uh, stick within ourselves. You've got to become outward looking and say we actually we need to speak to people by whatever means to remind them that we're here and to say that you you need us, you you will need us, and we're gonna be here and we're gonna serve you and we're gonna try and make a difference. [00:40:00] So that's been That's our I think our key philosophy not done perfectly. However, since 2000, I mean, there have been times where it has been uncomfortable. I'm thinking of things like civil unions and true like when destiny Church was was marching against civil unions. And I guess, um how did the Auckland Community Church react to something like destiny? OK, so I mean, without any doubt, this was great [00:40:30] for Auckland Community Church because that gave us a sense that we have got to be out in the face of this. So, in fact, Bob Scott went down to see Brian Tamaki and to tell him what it was like when they got that kind of slander, you know, throw it up in the face of it. Um, and others were very engaged. And on civil unions, we were extremely involved. And when the then archbishop of the Anglican Church said he wished there was a world without gays, [00:41:00] we wrote a public letter to Archbishop when all the rest of the church was saying, Be nice, you know, he's just a doddery old man. But that's not acceptable behaviour for a church to act like this. It's appalling. And so when, especially for the sake of those for whom it would become words too dangerous. So we needed to speak. And, of course, one of the concerning features. And maybe this is perhaps why a gay church can remain a bit more vigorous than the regular community [00:41:30] is, although in the regular community, gays are now very accepted and indeed even desired. To some extent, this isn't entirely true in the general church. There are plenty of churches, and indeed, sometimes I think there are more churches that are quite uncomfortable with gay people, at least in their public statements. Of course, they'll often say other things to your face, Um, but their actions, their public actions show that they're [00:42:00] nervous that the congregations are conservative. It's interesting that young people in ordinary churches have a different outlook, seem to be reasonably comfortable, Um, because they've been helped by the public school, you know, system and the like, uh, which has done great things for helping people to think differently. But you know, the Presbyterian Church, which was once very supportive is now. You know, basically has said that any gay ministers, [00:42:30] um, no new gay ministers will be allowed. The Anglican Church has a moratorium, which means that anybody in a relationship will not be considered for ministry in the Anglican church, with the exception of 111 diocese and not not in Auckland. So the result is that in terms of currently, gay ministers are getting older and older. So, you know, we we struggle a bit to find ministers. On the other hand, we're nurturing in our [00:43:00] community plenty of good people who can do lots of stuff. And I think we just at, you know, there's some challenges ahead of us. Um, but that's all right. Maybe we need those challenges to sort of make us think differently on a personal level. How did civil unions affect you and and and things like the destiny Church marches. Oh, well, I mean, I think that was actually really, really beneficial because you can't remain silent in the face of this kind of junk. And it was absolutely [00:43:30] essential that I, you know, Mark my different standing point, my different point of view. And so I led the submission that Auckland Community Church made for the civil unions bill. And as I said then and I think it's highly relevant to the marriage legislation now, um, so do you. Would you Would you prefer gay people to have as much casual sex as they possibly can? Um, you don't want stable relationships you prefer, [00:44:00] you know, bursts of sin followed by bouts of of guilt. Um, is is that your idea of healthy society? Surely on your own logic, on your own logic, you should want stable, stable relationships because they're healthier than people sleeping around and and picking up whatever. And, um, you know, that that was a point that I have made strongly in a number of contexts. And the church, I think, has you know, much as [00:44:30] I have been been very much nurtured by that sense of we we mustn't be too nice, you know, there is a bit of a risk of being too nice. I mean, I'm a naturally nice person, so I don't like being in your face. But there's plenty of people in our church that say to us, Look, don't let them away with it. And I think that's a good point. It's also really interesting that a couple of years ago, the, [00:45:00] um, Saint Matthew and the City billboards started making headlines in terms of, um, just being very provocative. Um, talk to me about that. How how do they come about? Of course, there's a very funny aspect, Gareth, to this whole story of the Saint Matthews billboards because ST Matthew's actual born congregation is not that large, you know, I mean, the days of liberal Christianity having a big following are, you know, well and truly behind [00:45:30] us now. And so Saint Matthews is helped by being in such a very prominent place and being gloriously restored with the help of the casino. And, um, you know, lots of aspects like that, and so it's It's in a key position and it, but it's a It's a very strange combination, because all around now Saint Matthews are apartment blocks filled with overseas students who are not particularly interested in religion. And then there's still the city mission next door with the homeless [00:46:00] and the needy, many of whom come into our services on Sunday night to keep warm, um, and have some really weird views about us, and there's often a bit of de demarcation disputes going on there, and we work hard on it. But it's it's It's an uncomfortable relationship at points for Saint Matthews. It gives them identity, especially while the Anglican Church remains [00:46:30] still very coy about the whole issue. So in this context, where people are a bit uncomfortable and a bit uncertain, Um, Saint Matthews can wave a pro gay flag and get a sensational international reputation, which indeed was linked to a magazine, AAA, an online magazine, which they put a lot of money into and that was profiled them so that it helped to profile them. But of course, the funny thing about all of this is very, very few [00:47:00] of the evening congregation go to ST Matthew's in the morning, I think a couple of people. And the reason for this, in my view, is quite odd. Effectively, gay Christians tend to have come from conservative backgrounds, and they're not terribly likely to be comfortable with some aspects of Saint Matthew's service. So [00:47:30] we have an amusing situation. Well, you can call it amusing where the type of Christianity of Auckland Community Church is not really the same type as Saint Matthews. But Saint Matthews is very generous to us. And in some ways our congregation, in terms of our core congregation is probably much the same size as ST Matthew's. Um, and we'll always do what we can to support and encourage. And we do. We [00:48:00] do a couple of services together, Um, a year, but we'd be much more Orthodox in our faith than ST Matthew's. We'd share a bit of high high prancing around, you know, stuff if you're so inclined, but not on every Sunday and at times we'd we'd try out better at doing a semi Pentecostal style service, which Saint Matthews rolls their eyes at. And I mean, I campaigned for a while with Saint Matthews that we could have [00:48:30] a big, big PowerPoint screen so that we could, you know, do visual stuff. But you see, Saint Matthews is much committed to a beautiful building, and so that certainly wouldn't suit their style. And but I mean our identity in Saint Matthews. We it's quite interesting. It's it's It's a bit like a tango, you know? I mean, we we're stuck together. We're very un alike, and we're glorious partners. [00:49:00] Yeah, civil unions. And now marriage. Equality is is going through Parliament, as as we speak. And I'm wondering, um, what do you What? What is the feeling within the congregation of Auckland Community Church? In terms of marriage, equality there There has been a certain amount of discussion because some of us from a slightly older generation, especially the women, recall [00:49:30] that age when marriage was seen as a decrepit institution, which was completely, completely the last thing that you'd ever want. And there's others. And I'm a little bit that my own way. Who says I don't mind if marriage remains the heterosexual thing? We could do our you know, we want to celebrate our unions, Um, and we can call them what we want to. But does it really matter? So there was a big, big discussion, um, to try and sort all this out. [00:50:00] And in the end, we realised that we have to fight for marriage equality together because of the way in which it's being defended. See, the way in which it's being defended is I mean, all it it leaves us with no choice. It's being claimed that this is the essence of Christianity. Well, since when did Christianity control marriage? That's not on. It's complete misnomer. Marriages existed long before Christianity. [00:50:30] Secondly, marriage as the sort of heterosexual love nest. This is all very well, but this kind of marriage is only exist for the last 200 years. I mean, before that, they were always arranged marriages and there was often a bit on the side, you know, so And what about polygamy? What? So I mean, you can't tell me that this narrowly conceived, love based heterosexual marriage, which seems to have a pretty large measure of divorce built into it, you know, is something [00:51:00] that is somehow belongs to the fabric of society as an unchanged, permanent building block of society. I mean, that's just ridiculous. So we had to challenge that. So we agree that it's our obligation to defend. I mean, besides, civil unions, is, is is quite clearly a cop out, you know? I mean, it's it was a nice thing to have as a first step, and it's interesting that the debate over civil unions was vastly [00:51:30] more painful than the debate over marriage, which is quite quite surprising. And I think it's a measure of a number of things that have shifted since then. But let's not go into that. I mean, but we make a great analysis to work that one out. Um, so it seemed very, very clear to us, especially also as the language that people are using for civil unions has clearly shifted into. They're calling them marriages anyway, So, [00:52:00] you know, Well, since the since a marriage is a civil union, I mean, why can't the state get honest? And so therefore, we decided, although we would we might all take different attitudes towards the traditional institution of marriage. It seemed to us clear that we should fight together, um, for, um, the change in, um, the scope of marriage and really to let civil unions drop away [00:52:30] because it's neither here nor there in some ways. So that's the logic. Why do you think that there has been such a change between when you look at how much anti feeling there was towards civil unions, as opposed to marriage equality now, which seems to be going through pretty happily. Yes. Um, I'd say, um, two things. Firstly, I think it's something about the way churches work that they do [00:53:00] a do, you know, kind of a last ditch mentality. And they threw everything into the battle against civil unions, and it was actually a very close run thing. And it was, you know, there there was high high tensions and massive public engagement, and they lost and the sky did not, you know, fall in as they predicted and the defence of marriage. I mean, [00:53:30] for a start, it has been so ridiculous. Here you get family first and the like, defending civil unions. I mean, the hypocrisy of it. This phenomenal aspect of, uh I mean, who can throw their heart into fighting this battle if you have to do it by defending civil unions, I mean, this is corrupt. This is utterly corrupt. So I think there was the nonsense of that. And I think Secondly, an awful lot of churches are pragmatists and [00:54:00] say, Well, it's pretty clear we're going to lose this one. And thirdly, I think you know, we are clearly part of an international discussion in which some very significant changes have happened in Britain and the like, and the phasing is just a bit different so that New Zealand is now behind. And of course, there is one key aspect, which is really, really interesting. It's coming in a national government [00:54:30] of not a national government bill, of course, but the civil unions legislation came at a point where an awful lot of conservative churches were just waiting for a fight against the Labour government. So I as I see it, um, the national government is a bit like the conservative churches. It's it's now. It knew that it was going to lose. This national government is entirely pragmatic if it had been Don brash [00:55:00] government. Of course, that's quite different, although I mean Don Brash can play, you know, plays his own games as he wants to. That's a that's another story. But the the opposition in in 2004 and five was quite clearly polemical as part of an attack on the Labour government as being morally suspect. And so it was part of a general campaign in which [00:55:30] you've got to recall that many churches subscribed to very right wing philosophies. And at that stage, remember, this was there was a George Bush government in store, and it was reading an apocalyptic scenario about the evil world in which gay people were part of that evil scenario. The simple fact is that the the textbook has changed a bit since then, and the national government that's you know, hardly got full of original ideas decides everything in terms of [00:56:00] trade and advantage like that chooses not to spoil for this fight. How how ironical that John Key should appear as the happy, happy PM turning up at the big gay out and smiling happily and saying he's going to support it and he'll speak to his MP S. This was the man who voted against it, of course. But then John Key is a politician. He's nothing more than a politician, and that's what we're seeing. I think all those [00:56:30] factors feed into this. What about in terms of things like Destiny? Church, Why don't you think they are, uh, chasing after this bill? There's a specific reason for Destiny Church. Um, they threw everything into that struggle because actually it was a practise. They wanted to make their name for what they thought was going to be the moment when they're going to get elected in 2005. So in 2004. This this was all part of a rhetoric that was going on, um, to play it up. But [00:57:00] you see, once you're left without a strong, determined leader like that, you come to the usual chaos of churches who can never put their act together because there's, you know, there's 100 different causes. And so the only clear voice has been the Catholic Church, but because it's the Catholic Church giving that for us. I mean, it's not exactly a commanding moral presence, um, in New Zealand today at the Catholic Church. Um, and I think I think those factors have been been quite obvious. So while the evangelical community [00:57:30] has said some things and there's been petitions, there's been nothing by way of public protest, and that's very, very interesting. I think it's a real statement that the church has actually accepted defeat, and it said, I mean, I think it's quite a significant admission. It's saying that we are not in the centre of New Zealand anymore. Now we've [00:58:00] all known that, really. But I think they have now recognised that, and that's a very significant admission. You're currently writing a book on Destiny Church and I'm wondering and you've done interviews with with members and and Bishop to as well do they regret what they did with civil unions? Um, no. But they always say they were misunderstood. [00:58:30] And as I say they chose. They chose causes not because they were that important to them as causes. They chose causes because of the mileage they'd get out of them and they they would fly kites. And if a kite would fly, then they'd fly it. And if it didn't work, they'd pull it down and go and look for something else. I mean, it is very interesting. For example, um, that [00:59:00] Tamaki, when he began his television programme back in the year 2000, was going to do, you know, women should not be in positions of leadership, and that was the case that was being presented. And that was how TV New Zealand, you know, with with, uh, both the leader of the opposition and the prime minister being women, this was a pretty outrageous thing to say. And television New Zealand said you must do that. And so they were forced to pull back on that, and it was fabulous for them because they had their audience [00:59:30] made and they didn't need to pay for any advertising of it. You see, it was just perfect. So that's an important aspect of the way that that strong fundamentalist line works is it kind of likes being the bad boy. Um, I think yet all the time the ridiculous thing about this was that Hana Tamaki always was a very significant player in destiny. Church and Destiny had pioneered in the Pentecostal [01:00:00] world the use of women pastors, as always, husband, husband, wife teams, of course. And I mean that paradox They they wore these strange paradoxes Destiny from a working class Maori background where women have to work. So, I mean, what were they going on about? Well, I think they were just testing the wind, and it worked, so it was very pragmatic, I think. [01:00:30] Looking back over your time, uh, with the church with the churches you've been involved with, what do you think it's given you? Oh, well, of course, faith to my mind, always integrates your personality and your wholeness enables you to deal with your black spots and to also know a know a little bit more confidently how to relate to people and how to really do community, [01:01:00] which is wholesome and healthy and enjoyable. Um, it shouldn't be too precious, of course. And, um, that's often a weakness of community in our present world, where we divide so much into kind of the the way we do community. Um, a community church can be a bit odd in that respect, but there we are, um, a little bit twee if you like. Um and I mean, it is quite amusing because in the old days, I think Auckland [01:01:30] Community Church was an alternative to the clubs, and the people who just were too old or too uncomfortable in the club scene could meet safely, meet people at the church. And I sometimes think that's still what we do. Um, you know, and I keep I've got a range of people. I keep saying You'll be all right, Somebody will come along. You, you know, it will work out, and I've watched it happen in some cases. But [01:02:00] as you know, everybody knows sometimes you do find somebody and somebody you don't, and I mean, that's I don't know, you know, that's one of those mysteries of life isn't it? Um, So I think for me I I mean, this is the interesting thing. I've got a I'm involved in a mixed but pro gay church. Two of them, actually, because I'm crazy, you know? And I mean, I'm a specialist in religious history, so I need to, you know, have a wide sample as well as as [01:02:30] well as Auckland Community Church. And I mean, Auckland Community Church doesn't totally do it for me because I love Children being around. And I love the sort of the fun of a whole variety of different people. And I like helping Little old ladies and Pons Baptist has a enormous work with, um, the mentally ill and has a housing trust that houses 200 of them. So, you know, that's a pretty busy community, a small community, but [01:03:00] a, you know, very interesting community of its own. So it's full of interesting and vital life, and I think that's how church should be. And in a way, that's that's great, you know? But then, in another sort of way, in a funny sort of way, I'm still brethren. Deep down, I'm still a person who for whom there's a totalness about community, a totality of world, and I kind of get it through three active church communities, um, each with their own different aspect. Also [01:03:30] because to me, faith nurtures the inner life. I'm a kind of very outward person, but there isn't in the life and you need to nurture that and you need a church. And the Anglican style suits me a bit, too, because it's got that stillness and slowness that is part of the essence of, you know, full life. I think, um, an Auckland Community church in a way, for me, I'm I'm I'm [01:04:00] an evangelist, Really, you know, I mean, I kind of wanna help people wherever I can, and we need Auckland Community Church because we've still got to help people. And imperfect though it may be, it's a wonderful place for touching people, and you may get one chance to help them, but you can make a fantastic difference. So that's what how it how it works for me.

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TITLE: Vaughans getting married
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VOICES: Vaughan Shepherd
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2000s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland Community Church; Brian Tamaki; Christianity; Civil Union Act (2004); Clay Nelson; Destiny Church; Irma la Douce (theatre); Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Queers on Campus (Auckland); St Matthew-in-the-City; The 5 Love Languages; Vaughan Shepherd; church; civil unions; coming out; equality; family; gay; homosexual law reform; internalised homophobia; love; media; normalisation; prejudice; pride; public affection; public display of affection (PDA); relationships; religion; self esteem; suicide; visibility; youth
DATE: 3 March 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Vaughan shares his thoughts on his upcoming marriage to Shane.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um, my name is Vaughn Shepherd. Uh, I come from a quite a conservative Christian background and a very large family. I've got, um, six siblings, so that makes us seven total. Um, with a mom and dad, Um, my mom's still alive. My dad passed away a few years back. Um, but yeah, we were a very loving, supportive family. Um, of course, when I came out, I was a bit of a stir within my family because, uh, being gay and being Christian was, you know, not the done thing. Um, but also, [00:00:30] it's taken me a long time, but I'm at the point where, having been with my partner for 13 years, I'm ready to go through and have a civil union and celebrate our day and, yeah, get married. Finally, let's talk about terminology, because on the first instance, you say Civil union, the second time you say marriage, what to you are the differences between the two? Well, I don't say that I'm getting civil unionised. I say I'm getting married, and it just [00:01:00] to me, uh, I think it's great that we had the civil union, and it's given us, um, a point to sort of say yes. Let's, um, see same sex relationships on par with, um, the heterosexual, um, normative marriage, but it hasn't really quite met the balance. And I think there's there's a lot of Christians out there gay Christians who want to get married. And by all means, [00:01:30] um, I know that there's a lot of Christians that don't want to see gay marriage come through because they think it's against, um, the the law or the biblical law in terms of, you know, man and woman should get married. But, um, so to those sort of people, I probably say, Well, you know, when God puts two people together, who are they to, you know, keep them apart. And definitely with my own partner, I feel like, you know, we were brought together for a reason, and there's a lot of love that we have in our relationship and a lot of love we share not just between [00:02:00] ourselves, but with our family, our friends. And yeah, it's just about having a day to sort of commemorate that, celebrate that and sort of say thank you to our friends and family who have been there to support us. throughout. You know the the roller coaster ride that it's been? Yeah, I want us to time walk back 13 years because 13 years ago in New Zealand, there weren't even civil unions because I think civil unions came in and was about 2005 I. So when you first got together with your partner, can you recall what [00:02:30] you felt in terms of? What did a long term relationship mean in terms of, like, the gay sense And and, you know, I mean, was things like civil unions ever on the horizon. OK, if I'm time walking back 13 years ago, I probably have to go back 14 or 15 years ago when I first sort of came out. Um, and my first relationship with a lovely man, um, who we'd spent a year and a half together. But I was of the mentality that there was no sex before marriage. So having had sex with him, I automatically assumed [00:03:00] that I must be married to this man and we weren't a good match. Um, there were things about the relationship that were never going to work. And although I stuck at it for that year and a half and he was a lovely man. We just weren't compatible on many different fronts. So when we broke up, it was kind of like, Well, what does that mean? Now that I've broken up because I always thought that there would be one and that would be the rest of my life. And I would be committed to that relationship, whether I had a document or I didn't have a document. [00:03:30] Um, So when we parted away as I was a little bit disillusioned with the whole kind of falling in love and having had a broken heart, I wasn't ready to get back into a relationship at all. And, um So when I had gone to queer on campus one day at university and I met this young lad called Shane and I thought, 00, he's a nice guy and thought, um, yeah, maybe maybe we'll go out one time, but also thought maybe I could look after him and sort of introduce him to the gay [00:04:00] world because it can be a pretty scary place out there. Um ended up sort of inviting him to a play that I was in, which was called I was, um, one of the actors in the play, And, uh, he was the only person from queer on campus like I invited everyone to come to see me perform. But he was the only person that came, and he actually came twice that this is a big thing, because, um, if you know my partner, you know that he's he's very musical. He loves, um he he loves [00:04:30] music, but he loves classical music. The musical that I was in was quite a sort of modern piece, and for him to come twice to it, you know, it was quite a big thing. So he sacrificed a lot to come and see me perform. Um, but yeah, the rest is sort of history. We we met. And, um, I guess when we were when we were starting out, I was thinking, This isn't going to last because two weeks into our relationship, he told me he loved me. And at that stage, I wasn't ready to love anybody. I had sort of gone [00:05:00] through that whole thing and had a broken heart, and I just was like, he must be crazy. This is This is not going to happen because two weeks. But, um, he's stuck by me, and he's shown me that, you know, through it to all that. You know, love does persevere, and it does stick by you. And, yeah, he's a wonderful man. I'm very, very lucky. Interesting. In the first relationship you had, you were thinking that, um, you know, sex, marriage, marriage [00:05:30] for life. So that's, um where does that view come from? Well, it came from a conservative Christian upbringing that, you know, you can't have sex before marriage. And so in my mind, I knew that there was no concept or nothing out there that would give a gay relationship. Um, the nup, Jews to sort of say yes, you're married now. Um, and so it was just in my mind that I'd gone through the process that if, you know, it was a belief system, a faulty [00:06:00] belief system in some respects that as soon as I had sex and that was the one and it was going to be with someone special and and he was special, and it was lovely, and but I guess it's a mature both in the relationship and outside of that relationship. Looking back I can. I know that we should have only ever been friends. And And it it wasn't a relationship that was ever going to be long term. There were just things that didn't quite mesh. [00:06:30] Um, and and the relationship that I have with my partner, Shane, we're just we're two whole people. And I always felt in that first relationship that he was always expecting me to fill a void in his life. And I think it's really important that people need to first work on themselves and have love for themselves and not be looking to the other person to fill that void or that space in their life. And it makes such [00:07:00] a difference because it means that people aren't jealous or worried about. You know what the person is doing and who they're with because they know that they love and respect that person, and they're going to do the right thing by them. So, yeah, when civil unions came into the picture, uh, what kind of impact did it have on you and and also your relationship if I want a time warp again? I'm thinking [00:07:30] of when the, um, whole homosexual debate came up way back when and that first law passed. And I remember watching TV and I watch watch these gaming and walk down the streets and I was sitting there quietly, even though I didn't want to be gay. And I was so homophobic as a young person growing up really low self esteem part of me inside was like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, And then I remember my mom walking in and saying, Oh, isn't it just awful as [00:08:00] it awful homosexuals? Oh, I can't believe that they put this law through And of course, that was my mom way back then. She's so done A whole 1 80 degrees. And she's so supportive and loving of our relationship that I have with my partner now. But, um, when the Civil Union Bill came through, it was sort of that same feeling. That little boy inside of me going Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, So yeah, I was I was really stoked about that, but at the same time, there was a level of [00:08:30] sadness in it as well. It was like, Yes, we're almost good enough, but not quite. And having struggled with that low self esteem for so long, It's sort of like giving someone a carrot. You know, they don't get the carrot, but never quite giving them the whole carrot. And, um, so you kind of feel happy. But then, you know, it's like an Indian gift Indian giver, where they take the gift back. And it's not really going [00:09:00] to make that whole self. Yes, you're worthy. You're a person who who who should be valued in society. It's, um it was a nice token gesture, but it didn't quite measure up to what I would like to think is equality. One of the things with that civil union campaign was that there was a very strong anti movement through things like destiny Church. What did that kind of, um, negative, [00:09:30] uh, coverage, especially in the media. Um Well, uh, the media weren't necessarily being negative, but I mean, the the the the messages coming from Destiny Church were very negative. What did that kind of do to you? Um, well, the interesting thing is, I think a lot of people are naive about, um a lot of the messages that come out of Destiny church and and as a prime example when, um, Destiny Church wanted to march down Queen Street [00:10:00] for certain things. My mom was like, Oh, wow, there's this really great Christian movement that's on And they're wanting to get support from other Christian people to to march down Queen Street on family values and everything that my mom believes in. And she was this close to walking down Green Street with Destiny Church and I was like But Mom, you've realised that these people are completely anti gay and that's the message that they're sending. Are you sure that that's the message you want to be sending out to the rest of New Zealand? [00:10:30] Because, you know, that would hurt me. That would affect me. And she was like, Oh, oh, I didn't realise that. I thought it was just, you know, that we were marching for family values and, you know, and I'm all supportive of family values and I come from a large family and I'm embracing my family every day. I've got my sister and Brother-in-law and there are two kids staying in our house at the moment and I love it. I love it. I love being part of a large family. Um, so, yes, [00:11:00] there are some Christian people, some very conservative Christian people that seem to deny what Christ was all about, which was about a new start and about sort of embracing one another and putting everything behind us and embracing one another in love. And I think that's the strongest message that Jesus had to give to one to us was to love one another as he has loved us, and they forget that and they concentrate on prejudice and pride, [00:11:30] deceit, and they're all the things that are evil in the world. Um, because I read my Bible and I know my Bible, but there are fruits of the spirit and people out there that are campaigning against liberals with conservative ideas. When you when you listen to them and you listen to their fruits, they're not talking love, they're talking hate, and it's a propaganda. And so, yeah, just be aware of that. And you can see by [00:12:00] their fruits what they're peddling and don't be part of it. Did she march? No, Definitely not. She she definitely came around to the whole kind of, uh, well, actually, I don't support that at all. So was that a big shift for her because, as you say, like I mean during homosexual law reform in the eighties, if she's going, Oh, these are These are really not very nice people to suddenly be turning the other way. It was a huge shift for her. Um, but the the strangest [00:12:30] thing is to me, my mother has always embodied what what God should be about. And when I came out to her, it didn't matter that I was gay. You know, a mother's love is unconditional, and I think that's what God's love is all about this unconditional love. And, um, it was such a weight off my shoulders like I'd spent the 1st 21 years of my life going. I'm going to be designed by my parents when I come out to them because of my Christian upbringing that there's just no way that they're going [00:13:00] to accept me. Um, otherwise, you know, I'm going to be the lone sheep in the family, and I'll never have contact with any of my siblings or anything like that. There was this huge weight on my shoulders that it'd be just easier to end it all, and not not to live because I either lose my family or I become a sinner, and I lose everything anyway, so, yeah. Stupid, stupid thoughts went through my mind when I was a teenager. Really? You know, in a bad [00:13:30] space in a black place, you kind of contemplate suicide, and I'd encourage any young teenagers who might be listening to this life gets so much better. You know, just give it time and tomorrow, You know, tomorrow is another day. Um, look at the small things embrace the small things, go out for a walk if you're feeling depressed. Um, because you know, there's a future for you out there. There's a rainbow future, and it's so much brighter and the rain will clear and the sun will come out and you'll just feel so much happier at the end of the day. So [00:14:00] just hold on to to tomorrow. Hm? Can you recall your, um, own thoughts when things like the Destiny Church marched through Wellington with that kind of enough is enough campaign. Do you remember seeing that on the news and what impact that had on you? Yeah, I do. Um, I'd probably say to my partner quite often, you know, I'm not really a politically [00:14:30] minded person. I don't care about politics. What I do care about are people, and I care about people's hearts. Um, and my profession is in architecture, but my passion is in the architecture of the heart. More so, um, so when I see people marching, I think, you know, for for a cause I think maybe some of their cause is valid and they're marching for good reasons. But maybe they've taken it to a point where that being, [00:15:00] they're not understanding the bigger picture. They're not understanding the people that they're marching against. And there needs to be a dialogue which has opened up where they sit down and actually understand what what are the big issues in life? And what does it mean to be marching against gays and lesbians because, you know, you have a belief system in a certain way. You know, what will it take to convince you that there's there's a bigger picture out there and they need to [00:15:30] forget about fighting a fight and start loving one another? And all of that would change, but it it makes me upset, and I see sometimes I'll watch movies and I'll get to the end of the movie and I'll just be bawling and, you know, it just really upsets me. And when I see violence on TV, it really upsets me. And yet, you know, I think maybe Destiny Church. If we're talking about Destiny Church, there are [00:16:00] really positive things that have come out of Destiny Church, where you know, a lot of these men from South Auckland who come from, you know, quite, um, angry backgrounds, um, or haven't been able to control their anger. And they may be have a relationship which has been abusive. They're learning to control that anger, and they're learning to channel it into more positive ways. So, um, sometimes, you know, having someone at the top who's, uh, a bit of [00:16:30] a military dictator, um can actually steer those people in a in a really positive direction. And so I think when you know, lives have been changed because of that, I think that's a really positive thing. But I think those men have to stand up and realise, Well, that didn't come from Brian Tamaki that came from themselves and the god within them. And you know, the the Maori sort of tradition about holding the the staff, the is it the inside of you? I think that came from [00:17:00] one of the movies, which is a really strong metaphor. I think that's really important that those men, um if they're wanting to be strong Christian men need to hold that that male strength, which can quite often lash out and hurt someone inside and be pillars of their community. But they don't need to to do that, they just need a belief in themselves and a love for themselves. And, yeah, it was really interesting. I was having this conversation with them, my brother-in-law, um, [00:17:30] the other evening, and we were discussing how, when they were growing up, there wasn't a lot of affection in their home. Um, and their fathers didn't didn't hug them. They weren't told that they were loved by their parents, you know, it didn't happen. And, um and it was just a really interesting sort of snapshot because, you know, one of my friends had come from sort of quite a broken home, but he [00:18:00] didn't have those kind of role models that could be affectionate with him to sort of show him how He should be a father to his own Children. And yet he's a wonderful father to his little two year old girl nowadays. And and, you know, there's just so much love in that relationship and they're very affectionate with their baby girl, and I just love it. But they've they've had no role models to show them the way you know. They've just had to learn as they go along. And, um, yeah, so I think it's important that men sort of embrace not only their [00:18:30] their masculine side, if you if you call it that, but that more softer side. And, um, maybe gay men have a have a means of sort of helping them reach that equilibrium, because we we both sort of understand what it means to be in touch with the feminine side as well as that masculine. And, um, you know, if they could break down those barriers and just let us sort of educate them a little bit, we could help them and create a bit of dialogue between both the female and male sexes. Um, because sometimes they break down, [00:19:00] and we understand both sides, which is kind of a bit funny. civil unions came in. Did you and your partner talk at the time about what that actually meant for your partnership? And also, did you and your family talk about civil unions at the time? Well, the interesting thing is, my partner had sort of said, Look more two weeks into our relationship. He said, I love you. It probably took me a little bit longer to say I love you back, but, um, [00:19:30] we kind of got to the position after probably seven years that we felt like we were a married couple already. I mean, we fought like a married couple and usually about the most banal things. It was usually things like Who would turn off the light at night, like you turn to turn off the light. No, you turn to turn off the light, stupid things like that. But, um, you know, just bickering. It's like I think, for heterosexual couples, they think gay couples must be totally different to them. And, you know, there must be no kind of antics in the bedroom [00:20:00] or just silly things that go on. And yet, you know, we do bicker and we do fight about silly little things, but on the most part we're very happy in our relationship. So civil unions didn't really change anything for us. We didn't decide. Hey, as soon as the Civil Union bill came through that that's for us. Let's do it. I properly did have a conversation with Shane and I said, You know, what do you think? Would you think about want to get have a civil union? And his response was like, Well, why would we? Why [00:20:30] should we? We We're already, you know, a married couple. Why do we need a piece of paper to To to say how we feel? Because we know how we feel. And I think there's a lot of gay and lesbian people out there today that are like, Well, why should we? Sometimes I think that's a bit of a knee jerk reaction. It's sort of like, Well, we've been so kind of kept under the thumb about, and we've been oppressed, and we've kind of taken on this internalised homophobia that we're not good enough. We don't measure up. It's not equal [00:21:00] our relationships with the heterosexual relationships that this knee jerk reaction it doesn't do us a service and At that point in time, I probably was still living in that kind of internalised homophobia where, you know. OK, well, it's doesn't measure up. And I don't feel proud enough to say I want to marry this guy and I want to walk down the aisle and I want to celebrate it. So I didn't fight for it back then. It took a bit of shift in my way of thinking to get to that [00:21:30] point you mentioned just before about saying, I love you and he said it within two weeks, and it took you longer. What does that mean to you? What do those words mean to you? Ah, I. I knew this interview today. Um, it would cover sort of area, which was probably going to be part of the, um the vows and possibly things that I want to say on [00:22:00] the wedding day. Um, but I think you know, a lot of it comes down to my upbringing as well, and I just think of first Corinthians 13, where it talks about love as patient love is kind. Love never envies. It never boasts, um it always perseveres. And those things as measuring yards stick to our relationship. Um, I know that there's love in this relationship because it is has proven the test of time. 13 years, and we're still together 14 years this July. [00:22:30] Um, so those words, they do mean something to me. I. I love people easily and a lot of love. A lot of people. But the love that you have for a partner, it's special, and it's different. And those weren't words that rolled off my tongue, Um, to begin with because, you know, I'd already done it once, and I already had the broken heart, and I didn't want to make that same mistake twice. So, um, like a stew pot or something? I think [00:23:00] our relationship wasn't Wasn't that kind of crazy mad love? You fall in love just overnight bang like that, which I'd probably describe this lobster into a boiling hot, um, that of hot water kind of thing. This was the kind of love which was, you know, a complex stew that just slowly over time developed and the Romans came out and and Yeah, I think so many people say that they've fallen in love, but, um, they haven't really experienced love [00:23:30] until they get to year seven or year eight, and they work past those this first sort of nick pains of, you know, is this the one or is? Isn't this the one? And then you kind of realise that it's not so much, um, the big things, but sometimes the small things that really make a relationship as the affectionate affection that you share with one another. It's How do you know about the five love languages? [00:24:00] There's a book written out there, which is a wonderful book which talks about the five love languages and sometimes people are, you know, verbally. They say, I love you. Some people express it through their actions. Some people do it through gifts. Um, some people do it through. Uh, anyway, there's two more. But, um, everyone's got a different sort of, you know, proportion of you know what's important to them. And for me, I think it's always been you know, I don't care about gifts, but it's always been about the verbal. It's been about the kinesthetic [00:24:30] love. Um, and what was the other one? Kinesthetic love. The verbal and actions actions were really important to me, and, you know, my partner has always shown me love through his actions, and it's always been small things, but they've always meant a lot, you know, it's just sort of He's standing in the kitchen, and the next thing he comes up and he wraps his arms around you and he just says, You know, snuggles up to you And he says, I love you, you know, And to me, that just makes my day. It just [00:25:00] makes me feel full of beans. You know, I might have had a tough day at work, but that just wipes the slate clean. And I'm ready for the next day. Or, you know, speaking of displays of affection, um, what about public displays of affection, like holding hands in public or kissing? Or how do you guys go for that? Um, I think it really depends on the the place that you're in, like, um [00:25:30] and Sydney down Oxford Street. It wouldn't be a problem. You could probably kiss someone in a cafe or anywhere, and it would be perfectly fine. Um, but me and my partner, we we're probably quite conservative on that front, especially in New Zealand. It doesn't seem to have the same vibe that Oxford Street in Sydney does. But even outside of Oxford Street in Sydney, um, you probably wouldn't be affectionate with someone else, um, out on or something. [00:26:00] It's just not the dumb thing. So I wish that there weren't the taboos around public displays of affection for gay people. I wish we could walk down the road, and quite often I see lesbian couples walking hand in hand and I think, Wow, that's awesome. And and they can be affectionate with one another. But there seems to be this other shift that happens when two men are holding hands or being affectionate with one another. I don't know what it is, but, you know, I think heterosexual males are quite happy for two lesbians to make out. Seems [00:26:30] to be a bit of a turn on for them. But as soon as they see two men making out or you know, being affectionate with one another, suddenly they want to, you know, bash their heads in, which isn't such a nice thing. So, um, public displays of affection No, Would I love to be able to hold my partner's hand and walk down the road with with him doing that? Yes. And I probably have done down a deserted beach or, um, definitely around my family and friends. You know, I'm not bothered [00:27:00] about just being me, uh, in a friendly environment. But when you're out in public where you just don't know the people, then not so much in those early years of civil unions did your did your family. I know that this is a gross generalisation for mothers, but, um, ask you, you know, are you getting married or, you know, are you thinking about it, or were they Were they kind of pushing you in that direction? No, not at all. I think, Um, by that stage, [00:27:30] uh, Shane had been embraced in the family, um, as as my partner. And And that was just a given. And there wasn't any kind of Oh, you've got to get married now, um, to make this ok, uh, I think every you know, everyone. My siblings, you know, the ones that had struggled with it had come around to the idea that, you know, this was it. This was it for life. Shane was a lovely man, and they weren't questioning it, so no there was no kind of push to go and get [00:28:00] civil unionised because I don't think they even knew what it meant. But, um, you know, as soon as this marriage amendment Bill came came up, which is interesting because I had already decided that we were going to do the civil Union. Um uh, yeah, my mom was like, You will get married, won't you? You know, when it does happen, I was like, Yeah, I'll be the first one down the aisle, you know, it will so happen, but, um, timing hasn't quite worked out as I would have Might have. Might have hoped, but it's OK, [00:28:30] so flashing forward now to to kind of where we are now in the last couple of years, um, last year we had the marriage equality bill put up by the war, still going through Parliament at this stage. But you were saying that you were thinking about a civil union before that. And what what prompted you into that decision? Um, when I got back from overseas about maybe seven years ago, I decided that that's what I wanted to [00:29:00] do, that I wanted to get married to my partner that I was sick of waiting. Um, it was time. And, um, I'd gone down to his parents' place to ask if I could have their sons and a marriage. You know, devolve sort of, um, I don't know, traditional thing. It didn't make him the woman in the relationship at all, But, um, I'd gone down for a ski weekend. That was the reason for going down. But really, I just wanted to sort of scope them out and sort of say, Hey, what do you think? If we were to have a civil [00:29:30] union, would that be OK with you? I didn't call it a civil union. I said, I love your son very much, and I want to get married to him. I actually said the Catholic. I said I didn't give a rat's ass what the pope thinks, but it was probably the completely wrong thing to say to a Catholic sort of parents and was quite embarrassed. Afterwards, I sort of shot out of the home and went back up to Auckland, but, um, I had this little magical moment down, Um, a stretch of road, um called [00:30:00] What is the road? The desert road. and, um, sometimes it snows on the desert road. But at that time, it wasn't snowing. And I pulled over into this little rest area, and I turned on the radio. And the next thing was playing, Um uh, snow patrols, Um uh, chasing Cars Song, which was my favourite song at the time. And I turned it up and, of course, the the the band being Snow Patrol, you know? And [00:30:30] then it's that night. It was just a magical moment, and I just got out of the car and I danced around the vehicle because I, you know, asked Shane's parents for for his hand in marriage, and and I was just elated, and I just felt like I was dancing with the Angels, and it just was a very happy moment in my life. Um, And then I came back up to Auckland and reality hit, And, um, you know, I did a proposal to Shane and it was kind of accepted, but not really accepted because he didn't really want to get married. [00:31:00] And, um, I was kind of really upset about that whole sort of. I was in such a good place internally that I wanted to celebrate our love and to, you know, shout it from the rooftops. And he wasn't in that place yet. He wasn't able to say, Yeah, that's a great thing. Let's sort of say thank you to our family and friends and and have a wonderful day together and just celebrate our love. Um, so he was kind of thinking Vaughn is just being stupid. He's [00:31:30] just, um, playing silly buggers with me. And, you know, my whole proposal getting on me was completely sort of shot through the mud. Um, and, you know, I bought him a couple of rings while I had been in England at ST Henge. And, of course, they weren't gold. And they weren't, You know, they weren't the calibre that he would be expecting for a wedding proposal or something like that. So, um, yeah, there was a whole lot of things that weren't quite right with that first proposal. [00:32:00] Um, so I felt a little bit jilted, ended up going to, um, Saint Matthew's in the city and talking to one of the clergy there about how I was ready to leave Shane. I was ready to go down to Wellington. The relationship was over and I was just so upset and he just sort of counselled me and sort of said, Oh, well, you know, is there anything wrong with your relationship? And I was like, No, not really. So why do you want to leave this guy? I was like, Well, he's just we're so different and you [00:32:30] know, I've just proposed to him and he doesn't even want to get married And I was a bit of a bride seller back then. I think I sort of pulled my head on a bit more, but, um, it's all good and sort of I think it's been a process. And from that seven years ago, this whole last little seven years I've slowly been twisting his arm and he's been slowly coming around to the idea of having a civil union or or marriage celebration and and that's what we're doing. We're having a wedding, and we're gonna have a wonderful time. [00:33:00] But what got us here was that the little brother was getting married and my siblings overseas were going to be flying in from Los Angeles and London and, you know, large family six siblings and I thought Well, if the little brother is going to get married, I'm gonna get married either before him or just soon after. And, um So I asked him, What do you think? And at that stage, I was still kind of belittling the love that I share with my partner in comparison to what my younger brother has with [00:33:30] his fiance. Um, being a heterosexual relationship. And I was sort of saying to him, Look, you know, do you mind if we just have something small, you know, before your wedding? You know, how would you feel about that? And he was like, No, that's fine. You know, just do it a week before, and then it would probably took another three or four or five months to make me realise why. Why was I making my wedding Not as important as his wedding. And it was [00:34:00] It wasn't because he was saying that I should be doing that. It was because I was making it that way. It was because Shane maybe didn't want a big wedding like I did. He wanted a small wedding. But even with a small wedding, you can still have an intimate and a a very, um, personal wedding, which can be wonderful. Um, so there was a part of me that was still I remember a conversation with her girlfriend way back when when she was first telling me that she'd got engaged and, um and I just met my [00:34:30] Shane. I just met Shane my long term relationship, and I was really happy at that time, too. But instead of telling her and sort of coming telling her about my relationship with Shane, it was all about her and her relationship with her partner and celebrating the fact that she, you know, just got engaged and stuff like that. And so my relationship has always taken a bit of a back burner when it comes to talking with other heterosexual couples. I've never kind of celebrated my relationship and sort of said, Well, wait [00:35:00] a minute. Actually, it does mean something, and it does have value. So yeah, I think I've got to the point now where I'm ready to shout from the rooftops once again and sort of say, Hey, we're getting married and I'm really proud of it. And yeah, just in a really good space. And how has the reaction been from friends and family. It's been really positive. Um, they're just so looking forward to the day. And it doesn't matter who you speak to within the family. [00:35:30] They're just like, Hey, good on you. And I can't believe it's taken you this long. You know, they would have been there with us well before the civil union bill, um, walking down the aisle with us, Sort of saying, Yeah, that's really cool. So, um, I think sometimes governments and politicians sort of take a little while to catch up with what's happening out in the community already. Um, and definitely maybe, I don't know. Eight years. Nine years ago, I definitely had the support of my immediate family and our friends [00:36:00] and family, Our community around us, sort of saying, Yeah, we'll be there for you. Um, which is really interesting, because I was talking to someone of our church, Auckland Community Church not so long ago. And he mentioned how you know they've been having, um, ceremonies for gay couples throughout the years. Well before civil unions like this is not a a new thing. They've been doing commitment ceremonies for a long, long time and and quite often if if they're gay Christian couples, there's been Christian [00:36:30] couples. You know it. It's been a marriage that's been done. You know, there may not be any paper paperwork associated with it, but it's still been a marriage in their eyes and their hearts in their minds. For you, what is the most significant thing about a marriage? I'm thinking, you know, Is it the day that you're kind of putting it out there in public? That, yes, we are a committed couple or is it a longer term thing? What What for you is I mean, what [00:37:00] does marriage mean to you? I guess the question It's a good question. I think, um, probably most men have always got their little blinkers on, and they're always looking out left or right. You know, uh, or if it's a heterosexual male, he's always thinking, 00, she looks like it. Yeah, I like her legs and I wonder what she'd be like in bed. And sometimes they're thinking, Oh, maybe I'd like to marry her. Or maybe I'd like to marry her, But, um, as soon as you sort of stop looking [00:37:30] for someone else to tick all the boxes and you just focus on your relationship that you have at the moment and realise that that's the one. And it doesn't matter whether you're going through good times or bad times. You're gonna stick with that relationship, you're gonna make it work. Um, that's sort of when marriage becomes real. And I think for me, I was probably in Hyde Park in England and I'd kind of gone. This was when I was overseas. I'd gone through this whole sort of [00:38:00] mhm internalised sort of, you know, is saying the one Do I want to marry him? Maybe I just want to stay overseas and and let him return home because he'd already returned home. And, you know, do I love him, You know enough to spend the rest of the rest of my life with him. And when you realise that your partner is not perfect, they're not going to tick all your boxes, you know? Yes, He could be taller. He could be broader. He could be, [00:38:30] you know, a classical ballet dancer or something like that. And and that would be wonderful. Or, you know, a rock N roll musician. That would be great. because then I could sing in the band, Um, all of those things. And you realise that? OK, yeah. There's some wonderful aspects about that that you're really attracted to. And there are some things that almost like Jekyll and Hyde, and it was kind of funny being in the Hyde Park. So getting to this kind of this is [00:39:00] an epiphany. Do you love Mr Jekyll? Just as much as you love Mr Hyde. And you kind of get to that point where you go. Yeah, I do. You know, I can take the good and I can take the bad And And the person you know, mankind is both these good and these bad aspects. And when you embrace people like that, if you can embrace your partner and sort of say, Hey, you know, I know that you probably got issues in here and I don't like the way you always leave the toilet seat up, or [00:39:30] and and you just can work through that and realise that they're not so big issues after all, You know, it's what connects you heart and heart, soul and soul. That's what's important. Hm. Planning the big day and I'm wondering, How is New Zealand set up currently for, um, kind of same sex? Uh, celebrations. How? How have you guys found it? Um, [00:40:00] I've been very aware of the fact that, you know, if I approach people, I want them to know that this is for a civil union at this stage. Um, as for And if I was getting married, I I'd be telling people this is for, um, a gay couple so that people don't kind of BK at the idea. Oh, wait a minute. So we're making a cake for a gay couple? We've never done that before. Do we believe in this? Do we want to do this? Um, so, you know, I've been OK with the idea that, you know, some people won't want to [00:40:30] be part of that celebration. Um, and that's their discrimination. And I don't like that, but I'm not going to let it bother me. Um, so, uh, probably because the the whole ceremony has been sort of left up to me. I feel like I've been the bride. Shane's been like, it's all yours. You look after it. Um, I've I've been on google and and just sort of you know, looked at, you know, it's always been gay wedding, [00:41:00] um, venues and gay something or rather this and and sort of See what? Google would feed back to me And And, you know, obviously places who have had a gay couple get married there before have come back with hits and and you kind of go, OK, well, you know, at the moment we've got our venue sorted. It's Grace Hill Vineyards. And they've had, um, same sex marriages, civil unions there before. And so that ticked all the boxes and met the guy, Um, seemed lovely. They were very [00:41:30] open to us, celebrating our day there. No big issue. He kept on calling it a marriage. He wasn't calling it a civil union, which I absolutely loved. And, um, not that he was gay at all. Like he was married to a lovely lady. And I just realised, Oh, this is really cool. You know, there's a lot of new Zealanders out there that don't see it as an issue anymore. It's just sort of, you know, hey, it's your day and and they just want to be there and make it as special for us as possible, which is lovely. So it's nice to have, [00:42:00] um, you know, Joe Bloggs, who you may think have might have had some conservative bent and not be supportive of you. Sort of saying, No, that's cool. You know, you want to celebrate that day, then you have it, and and that's kind of the way it's been. So I've I've been busy racing around, trying to think of everything and do everything and and then I'll talk to my sisters and they'll go now. Have you thought of the hairdresser? And I'm thinking, Oh my God, no. Should I have thought of a hairdresser? [00:42:30] It's like, Yes, you've got the bridesmaids, You've got the flower girls And I'm like, Oh, boys will never think of these things. So, you know, II, I feel like, um, maybe if I'd been born that woman, I would have had more insight into terms of, um, you know, making sure I had the hairdressers sorted out and the vehicle sorted out, which have all been sort of left to the last minute. But I think I've got the main things you know, sorted out the venue and, um, everyone that's going to be in the bridal party and the speeches and those sort of things. But [00:43:00] it's been fun organising. I really loved it. And, um, for the most part, I haven't come across anyone who's been really kind of anti the fact that this is a a gay celebration. So as the day draws nearer and is it about 21 days out? Oh, yeah, it's about that. It's about 21 days. Yeah. Um, are you guys pumping? Are you finding that your your your families are getting more stressed in terms of Oh, you've got to do this. You've got to do that. Or why haven't you done this? Oh, [00:43:30] no, not at all. Um, I think it's probably interesting at the moment because I've got a sister staying with us. And so I've got a full house. I've got a little two year old nephew and an eight year old niece who are running about the house, and we've got friends coming over from Germany, staying with us, which is, you know, going to mean that I've got an even fuller house, which is going to be crazy. But I'll love it. I love it. I don't know about Shane. He does like his sort of peace and quiet. We're quite different in that kind of aspect. But, um, you know, it is just for two weeks. So [00:44:00] if anyone's getting stressed out, um, maybe it will be Shane, but I'll be there to support him. So tell me about the day. How how? How are you planning? What are you planning? What are you planning? So the day is going to start probably with bridesmaids getting their hair made up at 10 a. m. And, um, but the little flower girls getting their hair made up, um, we will have already sorted out all the, um suits. So it will be just a matter of [00:44:30] us men getting dress. Um, and we're then going to make our way. Probably. My my little younger sister is a photographer. So I don't know what's going to happen between probably the hours of 11 through to four, but there's going to have to be lunch there, and I'll be feeding a lot of people so it could be pizza. I don't know. I haven't thought this one through, but, um, we'll be getting from our house, which is in Black House Bay through to [00:45:00] Grace Hill, which is in, um, hopefully buy some nice vehicles. We've got a gay couple. It was really funny. We had this gay couple move into us next door and was like, We're not the only gays in the village, And, um, one of the guys next door owns or works for a big car agency. So I'm hoping we can hire a couple of vehicles from him. Um, and they can take us to the wedding venue. So I hadn't thought about the cars that [00:45:30] was so not on my radar. I was thinking we'd just go on my little Volkswagen polo or whatever. And I was like, No, you can't put the bridesmaids with their dresses and those kind of cars. I was getting the feedback from my sisters and my mom and I was like, Oh, really? You can't? No. So, um yeah, so I have to think about that a little bit more, but, um, my sister's a photographer. She's a professional photographer. So check out Jenny photography, awesome photographer does baby photography, and she's [00:46:00] also getting into weddings. She's done a lot of weddings recently. Um, she'll probably be taking us down to the beaches. We've got some local beaches where she'll want to take some photographs. But yeah, should be fun. And then we arrive at the venue probably fairly much bang on four o'clock, and we're hoping to start the ceremony. Um, from then, um, it will finish maybe quarter to five, and then it's just people will have drinks and it will be a bit of a celebration. My [00:46:30] sisters will be singing two of my sisters who have beautiful voices singing during the signing of the register, which today I just found out I thought the would be bringing who's also a minister. He's a wonderful man from Saint Matthews in the city. I thought he would be bringing the paperwork. And my brother, who's getting married as well his his fiance's already thought of this and already got their paperwork all sorted. They're like, Why do you You don't have your paperwork for the day? Yeah, you [00:47:00] gotta go and sort that out, brother. I'm like, Oh, really? I was just leaving it up to the cellar room and I thought he'd look after that, the minister, but obviously not. So I've got a busy couple of days to sort that one out. Um, yeah. Um, the the rest of the afternoon will probably be just photographs and photographing everyone that's there. It's an intimate ceremony. So there's basically only 40 people there, our closest friends and family. And that's what Shane had [00:47:30] sort of given me as a brief. You know, I wanted to invite everybody in sundry, but that wasn't his idea of, you know, a nice wedding. So, yeah, we had quite different ideas, so I had to compromise on some things and you mentioned vowels a bit earlier. On what? You're doing your own vowels. Um, well, I had written my own vows, but then I realised what I'd written as my vows were actually better as a speech after the ceremony. Um, and I don't [00:48:00] know whether the the clergy, I hope he doesn't mind me using his name. Clay Nelson of Saint Matthews. He's he He already had a format sort of underway and some possible vows. You know, I'd given him my list of what I thought could be eerie fairy vows, and, um, Shane vetoed all of my vows and went for his vows, and he said, Let's just do those? This is straightforward. I can remember those. So, um yeah, we won't be doing doing our own vows, but I'll definitely do a speech [00:48:30] at the the reception. Yeah, cover off the things I would have liked to have seen in my vows. And you mentioned about, um, having photographs taken on on beaches and stuff like that. What do you think that is going to be like you said earlier about not holding hands in public and stuff suddenly to be out in public spaces where you're, you know, this is your man. This is, um I guess I'll probably be surrounded by family and friends that, [00:49:00] um it won't bother me too much, but probably the beaches that we go to won't be very public beaches. Anyway, there'll be beaches close by where we'll probably be the only ones on the beach anyway, which is it may be a little bit sad. It would be great to be able to go to or one of these main beaches and just, you know, go. Hey, here we are. And who cares who gives a shit? And it would be really nice to have the public sort of supporting us and maybe clapping us and sort of saying, Hey, that's great, you know, Look at the gay couple down there getting married and and and getting some really positive [00:49:30] feedback. Sometimes we don't give our public enough, Um, kudos. And a lot of them. The majority of them will be behind us. And it's a small minority who can, you know, really? You know, tear your heart apart or do worse can do physical, um, damage towards you that that really spoil it for the rest of them. Because, you know, there's a lot of people that would be OK with We're seeing 22 men down on the beach getting photographed on their special day, and it wouldn't bother [00:50:00] bother them at all. Certainly there was a fantastic reception to the two guys in the in the car on the Pride parade just recently. I don't know if you saw that with the marriage equality, Um, as as they came down the street, you know, they were kissing and the crowd just went off. They were It was fantastic. Yeah. Yeah, that's really cool. Um, well, we were part of that parade. Auckland Community Church and and a lot of the gay friendly churches as well was sort of under this umbrella of Auckland Rainbow Churches, which was really cool. So we had [00:50:30] the Methodist, um, Pitt Street Church. Um, who else, um ST Matthews in the city and, you know, a number of others, which was really cool. And we had a really positive reception from the crowd. And I think a lot of people who may not have been sitting on the fence about walking in this parade especially, you know, a lot of gay Christians seem to be quite conservative, which I think is quite a bit of a laugh, because I would have thought that gay Christians were the most liberal people out there. But they're quite conservative with how they are not only with their [00:51:00] philosophy, but, um, being in public. And and they're not necessarily. They may be proud about who they are, but they're not wanting to flaunt it. And so, for some of them walking down that street and getting such a warm reception was huge for them, it was like, Wow, I just didn't think it could be like this, and it was just so wonderful to be able to, you know, put the thumbs up and get people smiling back at you and giving you the thumbs up. And, yeah, just lots of smiles and a warm reception. It was wonderful. Very affirming. [00:51:30] Lots of pride. Gay pride. Your wedding. Does that have a thing? Mm. I have six siblings, and, um and so it has a gay rainbow theme. So, um, I've kind of asked all my siblings Maybe there's Godzilla coming out of me, but you've all got to wear your your your colours. So, um, the eldest has got to wear her indigo. Um, the, um, second artist is wearing her [00:52:00] violet. Um, next artist. I don't know whether she's going to make it to the wedding or not. Should be wearing blue. Um, Then we've got my younger sister who's wearing yellow. I'm going to be wearing green, which is the middle colour of the rainbow. Um, and my little brother wearing orange, and my younger sister, who looks awesome and red will be wearing a beautiful red red, um, skirt dress. Yeah. So we're going to be the rainbow family on the day, and I've asked everyone else if they could wear black and white with maybe a feature [00:52:30] rainbow colour as well. So hopefully when we get photographed, we we'll get this beautiful rainbow effects going on. But you know, that's a little bit of me. But I, I don't know, people could turn up in beige, and who knows that will be OK. I'm not that much of a Hitler when it comes. When it comes to the organisation, what happens, happens. The marriage equality bill is is going through Parliament at the moment. If that passes and [00:53:00] and there is marriage equality in New Zealand, is that something that you guys would go for? Would you change your civil Union for a marriage? I think so. I mean, to me, it would be really important, and I'd want to do that straight away. I might have to twist Shane's arm again. I'm not sure what that process will be like. I've already done the Civil Union. I don't want to do the whole marriage thing again. But, um, I've always wanted to get married in a church, So this is happening at Grace Hill, which is wonderful. [00:53:30] I feel like Jack and Jill have gone up a hill and that's really cool. But, um, you know, I'd really like to do the church service. And if I could twist his arm and just doing something small but intimate and a church Saint Matthews in the city Because I know that they will be supportive there. And we've got clergy there that will marry us. And Clay would have married us if the law had gone through. Um, but yeah, he's also a celebrant. So he can do the civil Union, and, [00:54:00] yeah, Have you investigated what happens to the the the the Civil Union once marriage comes in? I mean, does it can you, um, almost swap certificates Or do you have to kind of get kind of divorced as a civil union and then remarried as a and this? I don't know. I thought it would probably be quite straightforward that you just swap one certificate for the other certificate. Um, I don't know whether it would bother too many people. I think a lot of people who may not come from [00:54:30] a Christian background who have, you know, heterosexual couples who have opted for civil unions will continue to have civil unions because they don't want the church involved in their, um, their particular union, and I think that's fine. That's great. But for those people that would like to So I'm married instead of civil unionised. Maybe swapping paperwork will will be an important aspect for them. Um, I think for me it will be an important aspect to sort of celebrate. Hey, [00:55:00] you know, we've finally reached a quality and yeah, for gay pride because that's awesome. That's the final stepping stone. Um, I think it will take a while for people to 100% come behind it and for it to be normalised, and it will take probably many, many more years. But, um, you know, if the majority are behind it supporting it, then that's That's a huge, huge stepping stone on the way. And hopefully young teenagers won't be growing up going. I'm feeling so depressed and I'm feeling [00:55:30] suicidal because I'm gay and there's no there's no hope for me. There's no future for me because I can't get married and I can't. You know, I can't have a wonderful relationship with a man because no gay couples are ever happy. Hopefully they'll have role models out there. They'll they'll know people in the community, their uncles, who might be a gay married couple and will be will be more visible. So people will know that, you know, it's not a choice. It is the way we were born, and, um and we can just be part of the community. [00:56:00] We are your doctors. We are your nurses. We are your architects. We are your psychiatrists, your builders, your drain layers. We're everywhere. And, um, we're also your brothers and your sisters. Um, sometimes even your parents and, yeah, just love us, support us and know that you know, we love and support you. Back before we started recording, you told me, um, a very sweet story. As as a teenager, Um, I'm [00:56:30] wondering if would you like to tell? Tell me that again, because I think it's so sweet. Um oh, I've fallen in love with, um my best friend when I was in sixth form. And, um, everything about this guy just was wonderful. And at the same time, you know, he was my best mate and I didn't want to be falling in love with him because I didn't want to be gay. And that was the last thing I ever wanted to be because I was a good Christian boy. So, um, I had this internal dilemma [00:57:00] where I was falling in love with my best mate, and he he would say things to me sometimes. Like we would share things. And it would. I remember this one time where, um he said to me, You know, if you weren't a girl, you'd be my perfect match, and I was just inside. I was breaking it apart. Going Oh, crap. Why should it matter? Because, you know, I already thought he was my perfect match. Um, but, you know, it was a puppy. Love 16 never been kissed before. [00:57:30] And, um and then he once asked me, You know what? What I was attracted to in in person, and I thought, Well, this is a bit sort of strange to be asked this, but you know, I've always been attracted to people's eyes. I love people's eyes because I believe that the the windows to the soul, and I think, um, you know, when you connect with someone, when you see someone's soul, you know, that's that's more magical than anything in the world, and I loved his eyes. He had beautiful chocolate brown eyes. [00:58:00] He was just He's stunning. He was really stunning. And he asked me, You know, what do you think of my eyes? And I was like, Oh, I didn't know what to say. You know, I wanted to tell him exactly what I thought of his eyes, but at the same time, I was like, I couldn't go there, you know, he just completely, you know, punch me in the face or, you know, So I was like, um, you're a bloke, and he was like, Oh, so it makes a difference. And I said, Well, yeah, you're a bloke. [00:58:30] Um, but, you know, maybe it doesn't make a difference. And maybe if we could look into one another's eyes into one another's souls and sort of see the beauty that's there, the body would fall away and we'd be able to embrace one another as souls and as beautiful spirits. Um, and that would be a wonderful future to to strive for, Um, so, yeah, if he's out there, he knows what I'm talking about. I don't know whether he's He's, um I don't [00:59:00] know. I think he probably had a little bit of homophobia, kind of growing up. There were a few things that he said, you know, But being blokes being teenagers, you kind of get that. Anyway, it was sort of the stereotypical things that you say and you make fun of your friends and you put down, and even today, you know, there's the expression like that's so gay, and it has a negative connotation. But, um, you know, I always thought if I did mention it to this friend, that it would just be the complete end of our friendship. Um, but [00:59:30] he was a blessing in disguise, which is really awesome. And I ended up writing him into memoirs of an undercover Angel, which is the book that I've written in body, mind and soul. So check it out. But, um, I hope he doesn't mind, but he is in there, Um, because he helped me come out. So thank you very much. You know who you are out there. But, um, both my sister and myself have fallen in love with the same guy, and it was a crazy kind of situation. And I hadn't told anyone that I was [01:00:00] gay or I was feeling any of these feelings and I. I so wanted to be able to tell someone and express it. And so I wanted to tell him, but I didn't know how he'd react. I ended up writing this beautiful poem called The Tear, which is also in the book, um, which was about tearing myself away from him. And when I broke up with him, it was almost like breaking up with a girlfriend or something. But he had this tear that fell down his cheek. And I wrote this poem about that particular instance. But, um, my sister used [01:00:30] to come into my bedroom and she'd say, I'm so in love with, you know, uh, he's just so dreamy and she'd write his name all over her books. I love da da da And, um, I'll call him Sam. OK, but Sam knows who I am. And, um, it's not Sam, but, you know, it was I love Sam this I love Sam that I love and and one day I just broke down and I cried and I was like, But Johnny, why do you realise that the way [01:01:00] you feel about Sam and I couldn't finish the sentence because, you know, I had never, ever said anything to anyone about any of this. And she was trying to figure out what the rest of the sentence was. And at first she was thinking, Oh, it must be, is the way that you feel about me. I was like, No, no, no, no, I'm not going there. No one says no. No, The way that you feel about him is the same way I feel about him too. So yeah. So I came out to my little sister [01:01:30] when I was 16, but I was in love with Sam, and, um yeah, and she was awesome. She just was so supportive. And she just kept it a secret for many, many more years. And it wasn't until I was 21 that I was really ready to come out. I sort of denied it until that stage, but there were lots of things that happened in between 16 through to 21. That sort of really helped me along that journey to sort of finally get to the point where I was proud enough to say I am gay.

IRN: 714
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/meg_torwl_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004230
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089524
TITLE: Meg Torwl profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Meg Torwl
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; Act Your Age!?; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Canada; Jan Derbyshire; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Meg Torwl; Rotorua; Towards the Day We Are All Free; Vancouver; abuse; ageing; ageism; arts; civil rights; colonisation; creativity; disability; discrimination; documentary; feminism; film; indigenous peoples; labels; language; lesbian; media; outreach; photography; poetry; refugee; relationships; sexual abuse; single sex schools; social justice; travel; visual arts; women; writing; youth
DATE: 3 March 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Meg Torwl, a multidisciplinary artist, talks about her life and creative process. You can view some of Meg's photography here. Meg died a few months after this recording was made on 21 June 2013.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Meg tall. And, um, I was born and raised in New Zealand in a lot of rural rural places with just like a gas tank and a school kind of thing until I was about eight. And then I lived in Rotorua until I completed my schooling and then lived all over the north and South Island and, uh, finally went to Canada when I was 31 or two, which was about 14 or 15 years ago. [00:00:30] What was it like growing up and and kind of moving around all the time? Um, I think the only good thing about it, the bad thing about it, is you wonder if there's any point in making friends because you're never gonna see them again. And you're gonna be gone in six months or a year or two or three. so But the good thing about it is it exposes you to all kinds of people from all kinds of different communities. And so I think [00:01:00] that's been really helpful. Being like a documentary filmmaker, you can kind of have rapport with anyone. So why were you travelling around so much? Um, my parents were school teachers and I don't know why they got moved so much. Maybe they weren't very good school teachers. I don't know. There are rumours. Um, but also, if you would go to rural schools and be like the one or two teachers in command, you got higher grading and [00:01:30] you got to move up the ladder quicker. Basically, When did your artistic bent come out? When? When did you first start creating stuff? Um, I mean, I always used to write poems in my head at night while I was not sleeping and, you know, read novels by the light of the moon and street lamps and passing cars and things like that. Um, and I drew a bit, um, but I think school can [00:02:00] knock that out of you. It certainly did. I had excuse me, art teachers that told me I couldn't draw and that kind of stuff and really wonderful English teachers. Um go, Mrs Dunn, if I could, I wish I could find you. She was just so encouraging and indulgent of my creativity that I had in the fourth form and the sixth form. Um, yeah. And so I started keeping my writing in a journal hidden in the wardrobe when I was, like 15, which [00:02:30] are actually at the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand. But you can't look at them until I'm dead. What kind of subject matter were you writing about? Um, I think. Then I wrote about what a lot of teenagers write. It's like teen angst poetry, which in Vancouver they actually have a monthly thing where you can go and read your teen angst poetry. Have a good laugh to yourself about how you know, genuine and you were and important. Everything was so some of it's just about relationships, friendships, attractions and [00:03:00] I don't know. I did used to write things about truth and justice and was sort of concerned with social issues. In a way, I don't think I even understood them in New Zealand. I think I was exposed to too much American television that we had in New Zealand at that time. Can you describe yourself as a as a as a teenager? Um, yes, people ask me this often. Mainly, they asked me what I wore, and I have actually written a poem about that that says I dressed on alternate days [00:03:30] like Annie Lennox. And, um, what's her name from the Eurythmics? Uh oh. That is Annie Lennox and Cindy Lauper. Yeah. So I was like, it was either the black suit and the cropped here or it was the luminous layers kind of fey looking. And I was, I don't know, rebellious. I, you know, wrote a speech about what I was going to achieve by my 50th birthday and won the speech prize and said I was going to achieve nothing. And it was all about [00:04:00] how I didn't want to be a housewife. And I didn't want to be a executive. And I didn't want to be, uh I don't know what else A shop assistant. I mean, I'd done some of these things and and the kind of stresses that I saw that each of these women faced in society, which, you know, I guess I wanted to be an artist secretly. I know it's a little shocking, very forward thinking. Where [00:04:30] do you think that rebellious attitude came from? Um, well, is it rebellious, or is it just questioning? Yeah, I think it's just questioning. I think it's just questioning the options that you see that you're given and I mean, not many societies offer art. Not many Western. Well, I don't know. Let's just say New Zealand in the 19 eighties wasn't offering art as a career. What was the reaction [00:05:00] to that speech? Um, well, like I say, I won the fifth Thor speech prize. And so I see now, I was just I was looking at a a video this weekend, which I've never looked at, Although I've had it for many years of when I was MC at 17 of the, uh, school principals leaving concert. And there I was in my suit and my derby hat and my bow tie and everything at an all girls school. And I realised, like since that sort of speech [00:05:30] winning thing, that they really encouraged me to be like that, outspoken and eccentric and questioning, and I'd never really realised that before, So But it had a limit. Like I had a friend that was a punk, and they definitely were really down on her, and they didn't encourage her at all and like they used to really annoy me. So it was like, you know, it's kind of like that middle class liberal [00:06:00] encouragement of difference or something. There's a limit to it. For a lot of teenagers, Um, standing out is just like the worst possible thing. You know, it's all about kind of not trying to draw attention to yourself. So how did you fit in by standing out? I don't know. I just did. Although I have several theories, one is that if you run down the streets like naked, no one will remember your face. So this is the kind of that approach to standing [00:06:30] out. If people are like looking at your crows, are they actually going to remember what you look like? Not really. And I don't know, coming back to that speech thing like they actually got me to do this speech on stage to the you know, those assembly with my deck chair and my pretend drink and my sun hat and everything. And then I, I guess by seventh form in the winter we were allowed to wear our own clothes to school, and I didn't know this, but [00:07:00] the boys from the Boys High School that I passed on the way that I later went to university with because I passed two boys high schools on the way to school. They used to have bets and things about what I would be wearing. And like, I didn't have any concept that this impacted anyone else or that anyone else noticed. I just did it for me. It was like it was like costumes. I had costumes, not clothes. [00:07:30] They were like outfits. And so I was curious. I mean, now I'm like, how can you not have realised that people didn't notice this In a tiny town in New Zealand, people are gonna notice. But I didn't. And so I was really surprised when people told me this later that they knew who I was, even though we didn't do the same school or anything you were saying earlier that that in, in writing stuff in your journal, you you kind of hit those in in [00:08:00] the kind of closet. Why did you hide them? Um, I think that, like lots of people do. I mean, I think a lot of girls start writing diaries and you, like, hide them under the mattress, and then your parents or your grandma or your sister or something finds it, and then they read it and then they laugh at you. And so then you just become a little smarter. I. I used to read my sister's diary. Sorry, Jan. I can't remember if I've confessed this to her while [00:08:30] she was in the shower, I would take the key off her desk and unlock it and read it. And then I'd ask her things that as if I knew about her life, it really freaked her out. It was very mean, but, you know, that was my small revenge on the older sister. What is that feeling like of reading somebody else's diary? I mean, that must be quite it. It really is a very such a personal thing, isn't it? I always was like a bit of a a bit of a snoop. And I think that was because, [00:09:00] you know, I lived in a family where people never really said what was going on, or and so everything seemed very secret. And so it makes you kind of want to snoop around, and I think I'm a curious person. People say I should have been a spy because I'm very good at putting things back exactly how they were, and I've actually Oh, this is a terrible confession, but lots of people know this about me. I've had to teach myself not to snoop like friends. Like when I used I house [00:09:30] sat for a year so you can imagine what kind of great snooping opportunity that was. But they they were strangers. And so I had to, like, teach myself to actually go no and not like Snoop Friends, diaries and things like that as an adult. And I've successfully managed to do that. You have to draw the line somewhere. And would you be comfortable with somebody doing that to you? Um, well, no. The funny thing is, I mean, Adrian, [00:10:00] that I live with. She's not like that. And so she would never, ever read my journals or go into my room or even probably if it was lying around in a public space. She probably wouldn't open it. And no, I'm sure I would hate it, But I mean, I'm more or less, you know, in some ways with spoken, spoken word stuff I've done. I mean, I make my living and sometimes from bearing my soul basically, so [00:10:30] it doesn't bother me in that way, like I read something recently it was my friend Raymond. Excuse me, and I can't remember where I'd written this down, but I read it somewhere recently, and I must have been in a story I'd written. And he said This was years ago and he said on the phone, something like I hear getting published Just like Like that, Like walking down the street, start naked. And then he paused for a second and said, Well, walking down the street start naked. Probably never bothered you anyway, [00:11:00] so you're probably good with that. And I was like, Yeah, I'm pretty much so. It's It's kind of like that. I think there's value in not just emotions, but I think especially thoughts and attitudes to each other as people, as different people, different types of people. I think there's value in getting that out and exposing that to [00:11:30] the light. And that's never bothered me, which I think most people wanna hide their private attitudes away, whereas I think we all have them and we should just talk about it. Do you hold a wee bit back for yourself, or are you kind of like completely out there? I mean, I probably do this. I certainly edit, and there's probably things for privacy or for other people's privacy or whatever that I might not put in there. But I maybe I'm fooling myself, [00:12:00] but I feel like as an artist, you know, uh, Jan desire, a wonderful director I worked with in Canada. She works with your resistance, so she gets to a point where she feels you. And so I try to do that as well. If it's like, Why don't you want to talk about this? Then? That's usually the most interesting thing in a way, so kind of not holding it back trying [00:12:30] not to. What do you think your strongest artistic statement has been so far? Hm, That's a very good question. I don't know. I mean, I think a couple of things come to mind, I don't know. One of them, for some reason, is at your age, which is the first, um, film that I made at your age, with um 16 No. 10 women age [00:13:00] 16 to 80 where we talk about ageism, uh, in the lesbian community or in the woman's community or just in society and our different attitudes to each other as women, as we age, and I haven't seen much stuff like that. You know, I guess I expected there might be other work. I'm sure there is other work out there that I'm unaware of, but because my aunt actually really Catherine [00:13:30] helped me with that. I tested the questions on her and a couple of other people, and she was like, No, no, no, no, no. You have to trick people more. I was like, What do you mean? I have to trick people more. This isn't so much in my nature, but what she meant was, you know, people aren't going to admit to their ages and like they are probably not going to admit to racism, you know, unconscious racism or something like that. So I added some. It's true. I added some things where I asked [00:14:00] people things like, Would you date this woman And then I and she was aged 30. And then I showed them another photo when she was aged 70 they didn't know it was the same person. And, uh, yeah, their answers were completely different. Both young people and old people gave older people older women gave completely different answers, even though they were looking at the same person, and so that's that. It's that kind of unconscious assumptions we have based on how people look. It's quite interesting, [00:14:30] isn't it? How a lot of, uh, discrimination or, um, yeah, the way you think is is happens very quietly. Yeah, it's, uh, you know, it's an unconscious. It's an unconscious thing. It's just there in our fabric of our mind, for whatever reason. And I mean, that's what I you know, said with the film, it's not bad, but let's just get it out and look at it, Yeah, So why do you think that [00:15:00] was one of your stronger, stronger statements? Um, I don't know, because I think I. I guess I just find relationships between women very interesting. And yeah, I just think that kind of thing is so unspoken about. And it was just interesting. The assumptions older women have about younger women and younger women have about older women. And [00:15:30] also as an aside, which was interesting for me, being a person with disabilities is a lot of it ended up being about disability, which surprised me. And there is some truth that, um, disability can increase with age the rate of disability in the population as your age can increase. But that was the assumption, and that was a lot of why people said they wouldn't date older people, was that they would be incapacitated and they wouldn't [00:16:00] be able to enjoy the things together that they think they enjoy doing now. But you know, I found that really interesting at the time, being in a relationship with someone who was, you know, nearly four decades older than me, who still has a social life three times busier than mine and goes out snowshoeing and, you know, at 82 and all that kind of stuff. So there's always, like anomalies and strange ironies. [00:16:30] And and also what that said to me while I was making that film was, um, it was like I was no longer even in the dating pool as a person with a disability, if that's what they're saying about why they wouldn't date older people, So I don't know. That was very interesting to me. How do you think disability, uh, comes through in your creative output? I think it's just like a lens. It's like, you know, it's like the lesbian [00:17:00] lens It's like the trying to have an anti colonial, anti racist, cultural, diverse kind of lens. It's trying to be aware of class, and, you know, I know I'm an eighties feminist. That's what I am. That's very obvious to me. When I go to queer things now and you know it's a different lens. And so II I look at all those you know, different [00:17:30] impressions that people face. And so I always say it informs my work, but it doesn't define it. And, you know, on the one hand, yes, I'm an artist with a disability, and we have big arguments and discussions about whether you're a disabled artist or an artist with a disability. And it's the same argument we have about whether you're a woman artist or whether you're an artist who just happens to be a woman and whether you're a queer artist or you and some people fall in different places along [00:18:00] that depending on what they choose to make work about. But it would be very difficult for me to define myself as one of those because I don't know. I'm always trying to address all of them at once, basically, and I think that has been challenging for people in my work is that I've refused to stick to one topic and that kind of I don't know what to do, how to describe it, a kind of like uni mind uni topic kind of approach. And actually, I found that people [00:18:30] can sometimes have a problem with that. Like when you're applying for funding and stuff. It's like they would just love it if I would just be queer or something or just be disabled or just abuse surviving or, you know, just chronically ill And they're quite they. It can be really, like, Structured and Ted and constricted how you can, I don't know, put that out there. So I'm very grateful. I have to say [00:19:00] to places like the Canada Council and the into arts who have funded me to come here because they understand into arts not only as interdisciplinary but across communities. And that that's what I'm trying to do is in a way, in my own little way is get different communities to come and look at each other what each other has to say, because I, I either run across these different communities or I have been able [00:19:30] to have access to them with things like funding and and going through agencies. And yeah, they want you to kind of like tick boxes. As to what? You know what? You know what label you're using today? What about your own sense of of kind of labels and where you fit? Do you find labels? Uh, useful, or do you try not to use labels at all? Yeah. I don't really have a problem with labels like I mean, yeah, on the one hand, you just want to put your art out there, and [00:20:00] and I'm aware sometimes when I, um, promote it to a mainstream media or a mainstream audience or a mainstream society Excuse me, I might, um, kind of leave a lot of labels off and just want the work to stand for itself. And some of those labels might pop up in descriptions of the work or in descriptions of the populations that are in the work. Since most of my work is documentary [00:20:30] in either video or radio or photography or from life, it's my spoken word. Stuff is mostly autobiographical. Um, but I I So there's that wanting the work to stand on it by itself. But yeah, if people do want talk about labels, I it's not something I like get all upset about and want to shy away from. I think they have their their [00:21:00] uses and, you know, also, in my kind of day job, I've done a lot in Canada of event promotion and, um, community outreach. And in a way, that's all about labels and saying to people, Why is this of interest to you? Um, but again, what I do is that cross community. It's like, OK, here's this film. Who could this, you know, potentially appeal to who's in there and it's never just, you know, I remember promoting shameless art [00:21:30] of disability for the NFB, and they were like, Oh my God, you're the best community promoter we've ever had because I was like, OK, it's made by a straight Jewish documentary maker, but she's got to out of five queer couples in there, so and it's about disability and art. So you're going art community disability, queer community, Jewish community, film making, community, students and yeah, you always have to think who could be interested and there's something in [00:22:00] there for everyone. Usually. So why do you create art? I'm driven. People have described me as very driven. I think I'm less driven than I used to be. I think illness of several kinds has many times tried to smack that driven out of me or oh, you know, that's a lesson I feel like in life. Philosophically speaking, I've I'm always trying to learn is that I can't [00:22:30] do everything even though I want to. Um, I think the simplest answer and what I've written down many times is that I'm only happy when I'm making things, and the rest of the time I feel not quite alive enough. Where do you think that kind of creative energy comes from? I don't know. I mean, I don't know if you're born with it or it's encouraged in you. I can't really see apart from my [00:23:00] lovely English teacher, where it was encouraged in me it it certainly wasn't encouraged in my family. Um, you know, although my mother valued at, um, poets and theatre and to go and see and stuff, I think I don't know if you're born with it, because I do. I do believe that everybody's creative But also I don't define creative activity as just art, [00:23:30] like, you know, like, to me, cooking is an art, and I am not creative in that way. But I know people who are, and I consider that part of creativity, like lots of things are part of creativity. And so I think we all share that as humans. I'm curious whether other animals make art, and I think they probably do. We just can't see it. [00:24:00] And well, I mean, they create nests and all kinds of things, and I mean, I don't know, how do they know how to do that? I mean, it's amazing what what other creatures make. And I I've always been fascinated by that that animals have culture and language, and they do. We're just not that good at seeing it. I think so. I think that creative impulse isn't even only held by humans, although I think [00:24:30] we think that's what defines us as humans is that we're the only ones that have art. But I don't actually think that's true. That's a really interesting idea about the idea that I suppose as an artist, seeing something, seeing the world first before you actually create something Well, that reminds me of what of a way in that Adrian described my photography when she first, when we first met 15 or so years ago, which [00:25:00] was texted. And so I used to take a lot of landscape photography. But like many women, I mean, it's a generalisation. But men can often take, um, like photos of kind of big things, and women often take photos of much closer in things. I mean, it's a gross generalisation, but when I read that, I was like, actually, there's there can be some truth in that for some people, obviously, you know, it doesn't apply to everyone. And so my nature photography was very much involved in the patterns that I would see [00:25:30] in nature. It might be on rocks or the sand or leaves, or it might be shadows on a tree or something like that. And yeah, it's looking at, even though kind of nature, so called nature is just making that no one or no animal or being is kind of making it. It's just happening, but I don't know or like things like crabs and make those little balls of sand. And sometimes when you're walking along the beach, you know, it looks like it's in the shape of a bird, and you're like, Wow, did they make [00:26:00] that or on purpose? Or is that just what I'm seeing? But yeah, and that's also my part of my artistic. I don't know what not U, but something is, is that patterning. And that also goes across my documentaries as well. It's always like, OK, here are these people the you know who may be a community I'm from and it may not be often I am, and it's like how, [00:26:30] uh, what do they have in common and in their life experience and what is different So, like, let's say, women refugees in Canada, you know, they have in common this journey of escaping persecution of whatever kind be it family, religious, state, war, whatever they're going through coming to a different country, they usually then face a different kind of persecution. I have to say in the country that they arrive in either [00:27:00] religious or racial or language based, um, because the society is different and it's not really ready to receive them. Um, but then there'll be these huge differences, like If you came as a government sponsored refugee, say from Bosnia. You arrive and you get everything you get language education. You get housing. You get a little bit of money to live off. You get some kind of support [00:27:30] services to hook you up with the community. If you come from Guatemala, where most women refugees are not government sponsored, they arrive at a border unannounced. You get at that point in Canada you got nothing. You ended up sleeping in your bathtub and renting your room to someone else to save up enough money so that you can bring your three Children through the immigration process. And like, and so those kinds of similarities and differences is just what [00:28:00] really fascinates me about life. And it's not just a fascination because, like that's about oppression. And it's about the hard reality of people's lives. But those kind of nuances that I want to bring out in that particular situation where you're dealing with stories of that kind of nature, how do you cope yourself with holding on to that information? And I mean, I tried. I was less good [00:28:30] about this when I worked in radio because it's so weekly and you're just churning it out every week. I was more good about it in film because you usually had more lead time. If you're doing independent documentary, I always meditated before I interviewed people just to get really grounded and also to really be able to listen and not bring myself so much to the interview. And and then I would sort of, you know, do little visualisations and kind of protect [00:29:00] myself with chakras and auras and colours and to kind of be not affected emotionally. But I have to say that didn't work in radio. And even when I didn't know the person when I couldn't see them when they were on the phone a long way away, I just remember interviewing someone and they brought up sexual abuse and I said in a break, Do you want to talk about this? I'd like to put it in a different programme and he said OK, and so we did. And then that was fine. And then at the end, I was like, Are you [00:29:30] OK? Is there someone with you and like you're always really worried about the person and I mean he was fine and he did have someone with him and he knew how to take care of himself. And I just remember afterwards and even the sound technician who was, you know, a hardened person from the industry from a long, not hardened but experienced an experienced person. And he looked pretty gutted at the end of it. And we talked about it a little bit in a break and about, [00:30:00] you know, what? It was like kind of doing this kind of interview. And I remember having like this in a row for three weeks or something that things like this happened where I was talking with people. I think it was why I was doing a series. It just happened that I was doing a series and we were looking at issues for people with intellectual disabilities or mental health issues, either It was like a funding stuff that was happening with money that was being returned to them after institutionalisation. So on the base of it, it seemed like something quite innocuous. [00:30:30] But this kind of stuff would keep coming out and out all the time. And after three weeks, I just remember walking back to my desk and sitting there and going, Oh, my God, I just can't do this. And you know, I think there is a lack of awareness when you do a community programme like that and I I noticed it with other colleagues that maybe worked with Maori communities where there's the same history [00:31:00] of, um, not so much, um, institutionalisation. But there can be some of that. But a history of, you know, having lost your language and your culture and your land and having so much taken from you by colonisation that you're just dealing with the psychic impact day after day after day. And I don't think that's well, well understood in the in the industry how that affects you and how that how people could be supported around that I mean, in the end, [00:31:30] I think it's up to you, and you just have to have your own supports and work out your ways to deal with it. And but my simple answer is you know it gets to you, and there's kind of no way around it. It's part of being human, I think, and I'm always so grateful for the risks that people take and what they're prepared to tell you and the way [00:32:00] I especially process that woman, refugee, um, towards the day we are all free, which is with, uh, women, refugees and First Nations women in Canada is that I consider storytelling a sacred duty. And it's my job as the director, or producer or interviewer, or usually all three and production manager, um, to create a sacred space, [00:32:30] which to me just means a safe space into which they tell their story and from which hopefully they leave unharmed and I, I don't know how I really dealt. It's easier when you're doing it on your own, like in radio. I don't know how I dealt with that with the crew, but I'm very careful who I have on my crew. I wouldn't have anyone who I felt like would you know, the violates, not the right word, but kind of interrupt that that kind of energy. [00:33:00] And they have to be people who can put their egos aside. They have to be people who can be very quiet and just sit and wait to see what people have to offer. And so I think, you know, especially in that film where it was with First Nations and indigenous women from lots of different countries. You know, they have a familiarity with that sacred space and storytelling as a sacred Judy. And so I think they responded to that. And I think that's why it was [00:33:30] ultimately successful and that people were very revealing in what they said. When you look at your work and you know you're you're working with, um, you know, the disability community, the queer community, the older community, first nation community can you see a kind of a through line or is there a Is there an overarching thing as to why you work in those areas? I mean, I think it's basically people that are marginalised by mainstream [00:34:00] society. I mean, oppressed for want of a better word. And you know when because this exhibition happens to be part of the Fringe Festival and you're trying to find that line. And I was like, Yeah, these are people pushed to the fringe of society by mainstream society. It's like, I mean, I don't agree with that in some ways because I think, you know, Maori people are really front and centre in their own, you know, country here um, you know, even though that might be part of what the radio interviews [00:34:30] are with, like with Elizabeth, Kitty Kitty or to To and people like that. So you have to contextualise that, um But yeah, it's it's not people who are from the dominant culture of, say, Western, European, white kind of society. And and so either I'm in those, um, like I say, I'm either in those communities or I can see what we have [00:35:00] in common and how our struggles interact and and the other. I was gonna say It's a trick, but it's not a trick, because I do it in all seriousness. But the other thing I do when I interview people, is I if they want. For one thing, when you interview people in radio after you're finished, they want to interview you and I let them. So basically it's like open season. They can ask me anything they want off, you know, we've turned everything off, but then they're very curious. It's been a very one sided thing, [00:35:30] and they want to know. And I was like, OK, you know what? That's fair enough. They can ask me whatever they want and I would ask answer truthfully and openly. But also a way to make people comfortable is to to tell them things about yourself and to reveal, you know, whatever experiences oppression, abuse, torture, whatever you've experienced. And then people see you differently. And they're like, Oh, I'm not just talking to this white girl from wherever it's like, [00:36:00] this is someone I have something in common with and it's a different dynamic. Yeah. Have you ever been kind of shut out of the community? Have you ever found that you've been in a situation where you people have kind of shut you down? Not really. I mean, with the with the woman, a refugee in first nations, one about the persecution and displacement of women. Um, which I, you know, made in part because, as it says [00:36:30] at the beginning of the film, 80% of you know, whatever it is, displaced people are a woman and Children. But you're not called a refugee until you make it to another country. And most women don't ever make it to another country. They remain internally displaced. And so I wanted to, you know, Whereas we think refugee, we think political. We think, man, we think running from the government, and I wanted to broaden that definition and that range of what we're talking about. So that was a participatory video project in the [00:37:00] very best 19 eighties feminist kind of approach. And so people had, like, they they got transcripts, they got copies of the footage. And I mean, I did the editing, but we showed it to people. And people got to say whether they were, you know, OK with how they were being represented. And so I think one or two people might have pulled out. Um, you could basically pull out until we cut, you know, until we locked picture. And so one or two [00:37:30] people pulled out right after we filmed them. You know, they went home. They talked to their Children, their Children completely freaked out. They were from Iran. They were really afraid. They came back and said, Can you erase it? And I did. I erased the tape in front of them. Um, and I don't I don't see that, like, as a failure or being locked out. It was just, you know, they on hindsight, made a different decision for their own safety. And then there were other groups that I was interested in having in that film. Um, like the Philippine [00:38:00] Women's Centre is very big in in Canada and they had been working a lot with women that had come on the, um, temporary work permits or the they had come to Canada to work as, um, living caregivers, which is a very controversial programme because they don't have, um, very good status in Canada, as as landed immigrants or permanent residents until they're there for three years. So they're in a very, very vulnerable situation. And they, you know, [00:38:30] I went to lots of their protests and stuff. But, you know, it turned out they already had access to media through filmmakers in their own community. And so they chose ultimately not to be involved. And, you know, that was something I totally understood. And a kind of similar thing with women that were working with, um, a lot of Chinese migrants came on a ship in three ships to Canada. The first summer I was there, which was one of the things that actually prompted me to make the film because there was this huge backlash of racism [00:39:00] and All these Canadians wanted to adopt the one dog that was on the ship and they were being incredibly racist about the Chinese migrants who were really there. Because, you know, there's Canadian companies in China doing all kinds of industrialization and commercialization and displacing people from their way of life. And so they have to do something and go somewhere. So there were There were people, our local, um, people from the Chinese Vancouver [00:39:30] community working with them, and they ultimately again decided not to be a part of the film. And, yeah, but I never see it like being shut out or locked out. I just see it as people making their own well informed decisions about how to be or not to be involved with a particular media project or outlet or whatever. And I think it reminds me of something you said [00:40:00] before we, um, started making this recording about how choosing a crew is really important because that can alter the dynamic within, um, a session. Yeah, yeah, and and that's something I found out by accident when I made at your age, it just happened by coincidence. I had volunteer crew, and, um, I had my dear friend Grant, who did most of the kind of drama scenes that we did. Um, and he was, you know, experienced with camera. He shot [00:40:30] a lot of stuff just for himself. And then when we did the interviews, um, I had two women, and it so happened that the young woman did most of the interviews with the younger woman and I had a friend of my aunts and who was, uh, you know, older. She's probably in her forties or fifties. At that point, um, she happened to be the the director of photography. When most of the older women came in. It was purely coincidence, but I just noticed how well it worked and how [00:41:00] the dynamic was different in the different ways people were interacted and just how she was with people and how she was able to draw them out. And then there was this other kind of coincidence that we, of course, were running really late because I'd scheduled five people in five hours. And so the people that Adrianne had warmed up for me because she was minding them and she'd been talking to them for 15 minutes half an hour. They were like and you know, she was older. They were completely ready to talk to me when they walked in. I didn't [00:41:30] have to, like, warm them up at all, and so that was very interesting. And so, yeah, then I when I made towards the day, I was really clear that we had to have a crew of women that in some way reflected the woman that we were going to interview and that, you know, worked out. And I think it would have been a completely different film. Like I say, if we had turned, if I'd turned up with a you know, a traditional true crew of great big, tall white men and all of their equipment, which is [00:42:00] common in film in Vancouver or anywhere it could be a different dynamic, even though those people can be lovely and yeah, but then to sit down with a group of women you know who are first nations or visible minorities or refugees and to talk about escaping torture and everything is, you know, that's a hard environment to talk into, and it does make a big difference, which makes people ask you what your experience is, but I'm not [00:42:30] allowed to interview you. So I'll have to ask you after after the recordings finished, What do you think is your favourite medium to work in all of them? I mean, I think I'm incredibly privileged and incredibly blessed to have had any opportunity to make any kind of art work. I mean, I do think art is central to society and culture and life, but [00:43:00] it is a little bit privileged these days. Um, but what I like the most is because I get bored very easily is to be able to switch from one to the other like I. I just I couldn't stick to one. I'd go mad and get stale, I think and bored and it's very stimulating to go from one to the other. And [00:43:30] it's also hard and stupid because you're always learning technology that you've never used before because it changes so fast. And that's challenging, and it probably affects the fluency of your work. I think it has affected the fluency of my work. I like I can see. If you stick to one discipline, you can get very, very good and very fluent. Um, but yeah, and what I liked the most is, you know, say, by about [00:44:00] 2009, I could see where it all started to come together. So that's when I made that So gay, which is an interdisciplinary show which looks at, um, not just oppression of gay people or my experience of it. It looks about racism. It looks at the hoi raids. It looks at all kinds of things. But I was able to use, you know, sound design and projected photography and, um, video and, uh, new media at the beginning [00:44:30] and the end with this kind of close encounters of the third kind starship kind of thing that goes on. And so that was just, like, the most fun ever, because it was like bringing all my different digital disciplines together and then doing this, incorporating them into this spoken word thing. And I think the same thing when I did, um, Portal Portage, which is I. I did with three other artists in 2011, and it's it's basically we were all meditating [00:45:00] on humans as part of nature. Um, but the different artists, like, uh, Liliana Kleiner, was, um, she'd made Luminoso, which is a short film, but it incorporates her photography and her painting. Um, because and in that very textured way that she also looks at things. And then Claudia Medina, um, klos was using, um, video and audio and interviewing people and having them talk about nature actually [00:45:30] out in nature on a trail that, um, her local community had saved from development. And then Diane Tan was using painting. Hers was so solely painting. And then mine was also using photography that had been made into video. And it's underwater photos from Tonga and, um, from New Zealand and Hawaii and the West coast of Canada. And so more and more, I'm more able to draw lots of different [00:46:00] disciplines together and that I find the most satisfying. I think because you get to use all of your knowledge and skills and and creativity, and it's pretty good. It's pretty fun. Doesn't make it harder. And I think we've mentioned a bit earlier about it. Um, that funders find it hard to fund somebody that's kind of across multiple disciplines. Yeah. I mean, I'm not sure, I, I did get some [00:46:30] funding for towards the day. And although some of it wasn't arts funding. It was actually at that point status of women Canada, which we don't even have in Canada anymore. It's gone. Um, but they understood it as a participatory research project. Um and so sometimes you have to be inventive like that about where you're gonna get your funding from. And, you know, there was like, Adrian was at the local Women's Centre and they're like, Oh, you should tell [00:47:00] Meg to come in and and this sounds really good And I think the status of women of Canada will be interested in this. And, you know, it turned out they were, and so that was very interesting. And the Canadian Race Relations Foundation also funded it in part as well as the VC Arts Council and the NFBFP Pro Completion programme. Um, and I think they were OK with the multiplicity of the refugee and populations. But I did [00:47:30] in talking to some other funders, like get feedback that yeah, they weren't very happy that I was doing First nations and refugee. They saw them as different populations, whereas I didn't because everyone's indigenous to somewhere to me, kind of that was kind of the through line. Um, so that was interesting. Those kind of political discussions about whether you could put those things together or not. Um And then I guess, like I say, inter arts, I think has that understanding. [00:48:00] I mean, I did go hard out and try and get film funding for a film that I didn't get funded in 2009. Although having said that, I'm aware that, you know, 80% of people don't get funding when you apply only five or 10 or 20% of people get it. So there could be no reason. You're just part of the 80% of the people that, unfortunately, they can't fund. But I do think people were challenged by, um because I did contact the jury of one funder because you can get feedback, and that can help [00:48:30] you if you want to reapply. And it was a film that was gonna be about, um, you know, being older. But also it was about mental health. It was about poverty. It was about disability. It was about art and creativity. It was about suicide. And I was in the life of four characters, um, including myself and Adrianne and a friend of mine that killed herself when she was 30 also my grandmother, who always wanted to learn to fly. Apparently I didn't find out until after she died, and [00:49:00] she, like, left school at 14 and worked cooking for all her older brothers and sisters, who I mean all her older brothers who worked in a a trucking company. And it was it was looking at, like, What happens if you if you die, not having created what you wanted to create? That was kind of my central question. And and why do some people get to create what they want to create? And why do some people not? And it looked at the fact that Adrian had a, uh, [00:49:30] a plane crash when she was 50 something, and at that point she was a potter and a ceramic cyst, and she was kind of at the height of her creativity, and she fractured her spine and she never, ever created again. And then, on the other hand, I kind of, you know, was disabled, became disabled whatever, and then became an artist afterwards, and I'm kind of like OK, so why why does that happen? Why does it stop some people? Why does it seem to bring out creativity in some people? And I did, you [00:50:00] know, get some feedback from the jury that they couldn't see the film and which I could consider a failure on my part to describe it adequately. And maybe that's true. But I I did feel in part because I sent the script and the treatment and stuff to people in two or three different countries, people with disabilities, and got their feedback while I was filming it. And they were so excited about the film and they were like, When can I see this film? Have you made [00:50:30] it yet? Is it screening? And they could see it like instantly and completely understood what I was trying to do and what I was trying to do, drawing these things together that seemed disparate but have a kind of through line. And so that was a really interesting kind of learning experience to me. And I'm like, OK, have I failed to describe this adequately for a community that's not familiar with it? Maybe. Or why should I have to, um, is the problem that [00:51:00] the Juries don't have people on them that have this experience of diverse disability experiences. And that's what they can't see because I think the narrative of disability is like tragedy, and and it's kind of this journey and you become disabled and then you come back and we're like, Well, we didn't actually go anywhere It's our kind of attitude. We're just here living our lives and making our art and stuff. And so, yeah, those are all interesting questions to me and I. I [00:51:30] mean, having worked for the NF, the National Film Board of Canada, on a disability outreach project that was trying to put people with disabilities in touch with the National Film Board and the film making community and the creativity community as a whole, which included writers and other kind of artists. And I did start to try and have those discussions about, um, who's making funding decisions and what lens they're looking at and what stories we get to tell and how they're framed. And not just at the National Film Board. I mean, they need to [00:52:00] happen at Creative New Zealand or arts access. I mean, probably arts access is on to it. Uh, but you know, at the Canada Council for the Arts and the BC Arts Council and the Ontario Arts Council. And I don't think we're at a point where there's enough recognised, established artists with disabilities that they're on those funding Juries, um, with that lens and you know, they shouldn't have to educate the other jury members. But that's what inevitably happens. Is you by osmosis [00:52:30] kind of broaden people's view of what disability at is. You know, I put on the one of the many things I do, you know, my artistic disciplines. One of them is arts advocacy, and I feel like I don't have any choice about that. And it is that kind of education and and broaden broadening the horizons. And I went to, um beyond access, it was called. It was a national gathering of artists [00:53:00] with disabilities from across Canada, and I was one of two people invited from British Columbia by Michelle de, who has done Balancing Acts, a festival in Calgary, Alberta, that for many years has commissioned work by artists with disabilities, including me and others from BC and has just produced amazing stuff. And she's also done a lot of that political work and is trying to talk to the funders at that structural level. And it did really kick me in the butt [00:53:30] that gathering it kicked all of us in the butt. But I did have to. I can't just sit around making my art that I have to take that leadership role. I have to go on the board of things. I have to, you know, try and talk to funders about this kind of thing. Suggest, um, artists to them, perhaps that they should put on the jury. Yeah, because until we get to the decision making places, yeah, I think our work is going to be limited [00:54:00] in what is commissioned or produced because there isn't an awareness. And so I think that's changing. Like the Canada Council for the Arts, for example, has introduced, um, different offices into the equity office, and that's good. And also, they've they have an awareness of disability access in terms of I don't know, like, for instance, when I came here to Canada, I could apply. I think it was actually [00:54:30] fantastic how far they've moved. I mean, obviously there's further to go so I could apply to into arts, you know who understands? Like I said, inter arts not only as it's actually inter arts and circus arts, which is kind of cool. They so it understands inter arts is not only cross disciplinary, but cross, um, community and cultural. So that's good. When I'm when I'm applying and positioning my work, I can talk about it in a way they can understand. We can understand [00:55:00] each other, but then they also have a separate page, a separate stream, where you can say, Do you have other costs associated with travelling to this? You know, professional development opportunity because of your disability, and you can say yes and you can say what they are. And that doesn't come out of that other money that you're asking for and you know, that's fantastic. That's a great, fantastic improvement. So they, you know, funded someone to come with me as a disability attendant and help me with stuff. And those are the kind of structural [00:55:30] changes that I think need to change. But I mean, I think that's why the conference was called. Beyond access is that's just the start, and we need to have people who have a different lens about what? What is art or disability art or queer art or whatever when they're, you know, when they're looking at it? Because I've always Even though that film did have a A quite a disability through line, it probably would have. Apart from my work with New Zealand with one and five, it probably would have been [00:56:00] my most disability focused kind of piece of work. I also, you know, maintain the right, as anyone probably does as an artist from an oppressed group to make work that has nothing to do with disability or, you know, and that should still be funded. And, you know, I do think there should be criteria and what's the word? Not like quotas. But I think I think quotas are useful as a general rule. Like I think you know, you do need to look at the end of the day and [00:56:30] the jury and and is it, like reflective of community? Is, is Have you funded there at least 50% women, you know, 20% 25% 50% Maori or whatever it is that you're you're aiming for I. I think those things are useful because if you're not, you have to ask yourself why What was wrong with those stories that you know? You didn't think they were worth telling or bringing to an audience? You've mentioned [00:57:00] words like queer and lesbian, and I'm wondering what words would you describe yourself in terms of sexuality? I don't know. I mean, I think as you get older and you become hormonal, I've decided that we think that our sexuality is some kind of intellectual thing that we own and decide, and also just what I've seen happen in my own life and other people's lives. I'm like, You know what? It's probably just all hormones, [00:57:30] and some people seem to be one thing when they're 20 something completely different when they're 25. And really, we're just animals, and it depends what someone smells like when you meet them. It is my latest theory, so I mean, I have described myself as a lesbian for a long time, and I still would, and I do. But I mean, I've written a poem about that. It's, um I can't remember what it's called, but at the end, it's like so you know, if [00:58:00] I'm attracted to a, I don't know, an androgynous man and an intersex person and a a fem bisexual woman and a butch lesbian. What does that make me? You know, I mean, what the hell am I then? If you're going to define yourself by your attraction to other people, Um and you know, it's playful and it's like, OK, and be dexterous and be sexual, And it ends up saying that I'm a heterosexual. Uh, so I'm a heterosexual. I don't know. [00:58:30] I mean, I think there should be more, uh, playfulness around that kind of thing, even though I am still in favour of, you know, things like when we need it. Lesbian only space and woman only space and things that have been important for the development of my and other people's artwork and writing. Talk to me about playfulness in your work and and kind of humour. Um, I try to be funny, especially in my spoken word stuff, even though there are actually little visual [00:59:00] jokes even in my nature photography. And I think the only one who gets them are my twin brother, because when he looked at my photography once, he asked me things that no one else would ever ask me and things that I I think I see there and I was like, Oh, OK, so someone else does see these little quirky things that I've, I don't know that are just put in there to appeal to me. Um, I think my play for most like I said, is mostly in my spoken word. I mean, yeah, [00:59:30] like at your age, there is funny things in there you can have some humour about, you know, attraction and age and stuff like that. I mean, I would not say there's any humour and towards the day we're all free. There's not really You can't bring it to film, no matter what dark humour. You can have off camera with other survivors of torture, which you can. [01:00:00] It's not something you can bring to film. Um, and in my for me, anyway, in my spoken word and my writing. Yeah, I do think playfulness and humour is really important. And other people have said to me that that's something they like about my work because even though it's often quite challenging and I you know, I wrote a lot in 2009 with that so gay I'd written a lot of stuff about androgyny and being a lesbian [01:00:30] and being disabled and being chronically ill. And how people respond to me in public because I just find it wildly amusing these days, you know, and there's a poem about that, about how people look at my face and they think they're trying to work out. If I'm a girl or a boy and I, I can sit there on the bus and watch this process go unfold in their mind behind their eyes. And then they're kind of looking at my breast, [01:01:00] and one of them is a bit shaping because I've had breast cancer and they're thinking, Oh, a woman. But hm, breast cancer. Goodness, that's a bit serious. And then they're like, she's got those hairy legs and maybe she's really a boy. And what are those sparkly sandals doing on the end of them? That's kind of playful and fun. How does that fit in with this tragic life of this person in a wheelchair? Because you see this like tragedy, and they're like [01:01:30] she's sick and she's in a wheelchair and she's got the sparkly sandals and is she a girl or a boy and I don't know. You can't but have fun with that You have to partly as self defence and partly because it's just really funny and I don't mean to be mean to people and II, I understand the instinct. I mean, I've watched myself do it, trying to classify people. It is a human instinct. For some reason we do it. I think we've always done it. But I just like to have fun with it and [01:02:00] not laugh at people. But laugh at all of us and how we try to categorise people and we get it kind of wrong sometimes I think the other thing I realise that marks my work is is it is about documentary and documenting things to a certain degree, and that is sometimes part of the reason why it's not always so called popular at the time, because I'm documenting current history, which isn't necessarily [01:02:30] interesting to people at the time, because they take it for granted. So the fact that I ran around and took all these photos say in 1990 when a lot of lesbians and other people were protesting against, you know, the fact that the Treaty of Waitangi hadn't really been honoured and that the queen was here and they were spending 8 $88 million or whatever it was on the Commonwealth Games. It's kind of inconsequential at the time when you're just running around [01:03:00] taking the photos. But 23 years later they actually have a different significance. And I just I don't think I'm special in any way. I just think I feel the need to document things. I mean, my friend treason calls me the archivist. Um, they're like, Well, does it make have something written down or a photo or look in your journal? And she'll have the answer? Surely, um, yeah [01:03:30] and I. I just think that defines my work as well. And and I. So I've come to realise that it often has significance later. So I made this silly film called Where Have All the Lesbians Gone? I admit it's not a very good film. It's made on high eight in your backyard with your friends on the weekend kind of thing. But it was about a particular time and place in politics in Vancouver or queer politics in whenever I arrived there the late nineties, early, two thousands, and then it doesn't really screen anywhere very much. And then 10 years later, [01:04:00] if you live long enough, it gets to be part of this Vancouver visionaries screening a retrospective that out on screen puts on, and I'm like, Wow, that's kind of fascinating. You just have to live long enough to to kind of realise, what is the importance of your own work in some ways.

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TITLE: Des Smith and John Jolliff profile
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VOICES: Des Smith; John Jolliff
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1930s; 1970s; 1980s; 2000s; Alison Laurie; Aotearoa New Zealand; Big Gay Out (Auckland); Bill Hastings; Carmen Rupe; Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Charles Chauvel; Civil Union Act (2004); Civil Union Bill Support Society; Davina Whitehouse; Des Smith; Destiny Church; Emily Perkins; Fran Wilde; Gay BC (Wellington Access Radio); Gay Task Force; HIV / AIDS; Heterosexuals Unafraid of Gays (HUG); Homosexual Law Reform Society; Hugh Young; Ireland; John Jolliff; Kanwaljit Singh Bakshi; Kerry Prendergast; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Lesbian and Gay Fair; Lloyd Geering; London; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Moana Mackey; Myers-Briggs Type Indicator; New Caledonia; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Parliament buildings; Paul Holmes; Peter Dunne; Peter Sinclair; Rotorua; Rule Foundation; Sam Johnson; San Francisco; Sue Dunlop; The Balcony / Le Balcon; The Boatshed; Tim Barnett; Tony Simpson; United Kingdom; Victoria Club; Vincent O'Sullivan; Wellington; Wellington Gay Task Force; World War 2; Zealandia; age of consent; ageing; bait; bigotry; building; bullying; children; civil rights; civil unions; coming out; dating; discrimination; diversity; employment; equality; family; gardening; gay; growing up; homosexual law reform; horticulture; hospice; marriage; marriage equality; media; military; morse code; nudism; older age; pets; poofter; relationships; religion; school; sexuality; talk back; theatre; tolerance; tramping; travel; visibility; youth
DATE: 18 February 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Des and John talk about their early lives, their relationship, homosexual law reform, the beginnings of HUG (Wellington), the Gay and Lesbian and Fair, campaigning for civil unions and marriage equality.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Not many people can say they were born on Willow Street, but I was, although as my mom said, No, you weren't you were born in Kalla because that's where the house was was and Will Street. There was a private hospital. So quite a few people of my age, uh, who were born in Wellington were born in Win Willow Street. Malcolm McKinnon Malcolm mins one them. I think most of the MCs were and we actually lived around the corner from the So that goes back [00:00:30] a bit. We were in Kalla, and that was, uh, December 28th, 1939 right at the beginning of the war, the time when most gays were getting shoved into concentration camps. Rather daunting to think about that. Anyway, I was born and we grew up in Kalla, which then was, I think, getting into that rather classy suburb the white middle class attitude thinking you're the youngest of your family. [00:01:00] Yeah, being the youngest of 41 sister, two brothers. And that was being a young lad at that time. Now, how about you, John? I know quite a bit about where you were born on that, but you have to go back to, um, June the 8th. 1929. I've got 10 years on you. And, um, I was born in West London, and I grew up in Hammersmith and shepherds Bush all around West London. [00:01:30] And, of course, um, it was the early thirties. My father was out of work. There was a depression on, uh, things were a little tough for a while. Um, but the the family got through my mother, unfortunately, was not a very well woman. Um, she had diabetes. Um, by the time I was 10, things, uh, you know, the war clouds were sort of deepening over europe. And [00:02:00] Mr Chamberlain come back and saying, you know, almost right with the world. But unfortunately, uh, war was imminent, and I was one of the group that was evacuated from London as a as an only child. I was not terribly happy about this. Um, but there's a photograph of me which I think you've seen carrying a back pack on my back and a a brown box which had a gas mask in it. And, um, we got onto the train with no idea whatsoever as to where [00:02:30] I was going and you know, the whole school. Well, most of the school went I'm sure there were one or two parents who didn't want to lose touch with their Children. So we sort of rode this train and we had no idea where we were going. Uh, we ended up not very far away from London at High, which is just about 30 miles. And I was with a couple who I think had been shanghaied into taking a child from London, [00:03:00] and they weren't terribly happy, and I wasn't terribly happy. And anyway, that went on for a while. But shortly afterwards, I set what was then known as the um Oh, I don't know what it was called. I forgot what it was called. It was the 11 plus exam That's right. And that got me a scholarship through to ST Clement Danes Holden estate to grammar school. But of course, by that time, the school was no longer in, and any sort of pupils were evacuated to that [00:03:30] had to be in Oxford. So I was sent to Oxford at a very early age of 11. But I was also sent down from Oxford at a very early age at 12 because I got very, very pissed off over there. Uh, I was not very happy in the hostel. I started wetting the bed. I was unhappy, wrote a postcard to my parents, threatened to walk home, started swearing at the matron and ended up in front of the headmaster's office the day my father arrived to pick me up. So I went back to London early 1941 [00:04:00] and was there while my father, who was in the fire service, uh, fought the fires in the blitz in London. So it was a sort of chequered childhood. And, of course, the wartime rationing was there. And anyway, um, cut a long story short. Mum died in 1944. Uh, the war finished in 1945. But before that, I'd sat school. So it and, uh, managed to scrape through, I think because during the French exam, we had a flying bomb hit the field [00:04:30] and explode. So most of my French was done under the desk, and I still like getting on the desk. Um, but, um, it was yeah, Well, it was it seemed ordinary to me, but if I as I sort of recount it. Now, I guess it wasn't all that ordinary. Oh, And what did you do in the war, Daddy? We both were affected by the war. Uh, and John, [00:05:00] of course, been older than me. Uh, more so, in many ways, being in Britain. But New Zealand was not alone. And I think one of the tough things was for my mum. Rationing was in place. My father, uh, had a job which didn't take him to war immediately. But there was talk of going. He did join the home guard, and this gave him free time not only to guard the, uh, people from invasion, but I think it was to guard [00:05:30] the woman from, uh I don't know, but anyway, he he was a quite a And so, of course, at the end of the war, when he walked out the mom leaving four kids, that was a tough going, And you didn't have social, uh, network. And of course, I do remember, uh, those hard times. Uh, yeah, during the war at the end of the war. Interesting is there was only [00:06:00] age of zero going up to five. And yet I can still vividly remember quite a bit about that era. So it must have left a deep impression very shortly when the war finished. Um, actually, I was I was in hospital, um, for VE day, which was May the 8th 1945. I'd had some sort of breakdown. I suppose it was a stress thing. Um, and that was so shortly after mum died. So [00:06:30] I'm sure my father wasn't very happy with what was going on in his world at that time. And then, of course, I went to work for a while. I got a scholarship which took me to the London County Council, but she had a scholarship to go to a council job. Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? Um, Anyway, I was there for a while, and then, of course, I was conscripted. This is what happened to teenagers at that time at the age of 18. It wasn't a ballot as it was here. You know, if you had a birthday when you were 18, you [00:07:00] were conscripted. Unless you were you know, she was sick. Uh, and I had great dreams of sort of joining the Navy or doing something rather like that I ended up in the Air Force, had an aptitude test and was found that I was suitable to be a wireless operator. Teleprinter operator. So I had something like eight months training in Britain and then was sent to Singapore. But I was absolutely bloody useless as a wireless operator. Teleprinter operator, [00:07:30] I can still do you know what your best be faces did. It did it, that sort of thing. But that's about the extent of my expertise and Morse. Uh, but it did help with my typing because in those days, we were taught to type messages on an imperial typewriter which had capital letters only. And I still have problems changing from upper to lower case. Yeah. Um, but anyway, it it was a useful base of understanding [00:08:00] where the letters were on the quirky keyboard. And I actually quite enjoyed the Air Force when I got to Singapore, and I have to confess, I think substantially it was the male company who founded it, and there were a few incidents there which enabled me to explore the sexual side of my life, which I hadn't had much chance to do before. And you you weren't conscripted, were you? Uh, it was compulsory military training. [00:08:30] Until I think when I reached, uh, 1957 it would be, uh, something That's when they changed it to a ballot. And but everyone had to have a medical, uh, which I enjoy, especially kick the ball. But anyway, that was part of the compulsory medical. But then they balloted as to what birthday? Your birthday as to if you had [00:09:00] to go on, um, compulsory. Well, until you were interested in training, but I didn't have to which both of my brothers did. And if it's a good thing or not, I don't know. But I think to be trained to kill doesn't sound a very nice thing. And I don't know. I just think it reinforced the machoism of my brothers that you would [00:09:30] have, um, entered the workforce around about that time. Yeah, in 1957. Uh, all nice boys. I was told by my mother went into a bank. So they included you. Yeah, into the bank. And then, um, to me, who had a very creative side. The sort of work involved in a bank was very, very boring for me. I, I just really did not fit in. So I thought I would [00:10:00] go and do B com like everyone else did. And I had one year at university, but I didn't find a science degree. Uh, a unit and a science subject would count towards Bcom. So instead of doing accounting or one of these boring things, I did geology. So and then I was told that, um they didn't want academics around the sort of bloody thing. And I thought, Oh, well, I think I might give this a miss. And so then I went and worked [00:10:30] on a nursery for a while and mhm. Yeah, Well, the job I had with the London County Council was actually held for me by, uh, the my employers during the whole time of my air force service. So I went back to it for a while, but I was very unsettled, as you can imagine, you know, sort of disappearing into the wide blue at the age of 18 under, um So the air [00:11:00] Force terms was really quite a change of my life. And, uh, I began to think I don't really want to do this, so I tried several jobs and, um, yeah, but I did make some very close friends, and one of them actually had the same birthday as I did, which is not surprising, because we were all sort of enrolled at the same time, according to our birthdays. So, you know, there were several people who had birthdays, the same as mine, and one I particularly remember a guy called Ian [00:11:30] a very nice guy, uh, who worked in the legal firm. But we got very much involved in tramping and hiking and sort of scrambling around the hills of the lake district in Britain. And, uh, I just loved it. It was absolutely wonderful. And, you know, if we couldn't get up there, uh, we would go locally and the and the downs around Brighton or South southern England, it was it was quite delightful. I became a very ardent youth hostel, and at one stage, [00:12:00] we went over to Ireland, and, um, that was fascinating. Never. Dr. Much Guinness in my life, the ladies were so friendly that, uh, we walked from basically walked from Belfast down to Waterford, which is quite a long way down the east coast. But we did get a little lift at one point. So, uh, south of Dublin. But, um, again, we stayed at youth hostels, and I just found it brilliant. And I still enjoy walking, [00:12:30] so but I don't don't manage hills quite as easily as I used to. Yeah, you mentioned just before that you had some relationships in in the Air Force. Can you tell me when The first time when you kind of found your kind of sexuality? Both of you. That's that's difficult, because yeah, I, I guess. Even at school, there was, um during during school. [00:13:00] Of course, lots of teachers have been conscripted and particularly in the geography here, for some reason. Or rather, we had something like, uh, eight or nine geography teachers, and several of them were just put on what was then known as the scope, which is a a sort of, uh, PowerPoint display where the room was in the dark and these slides went up. So there's all sorts of fumbling going on in the back row. Uh, so guys saying [00:13:30] look, mine is bigger than yours, this sort of thing. So I mean, there was a certain amount of, uh, yeah, experimentation at school um, but I think it was It was the Air Force. Really, Which first sort of made me think. Well, this guy's a very nice man. And the fact that he's a man makes him particularly attractive. Um, yeah, there were There were one or two where we had sort of, [00:14:00] um, sexual, uh, Congress. Would that be a nice word? And, um, but it wasn't always terribly easy after you were in a barracks with 35 other people, you know, it was all a little little furtive except for the occasional body. We got very sort of flamboyant and sort of lay on the bed wanking. Say you aren't I clever, boy, sort of thing and tempting others to come. There was evidently sort of horseplay and hotter [00:14:30] if you built like a horse. And no doubt, uh, I've never seen a horse. I'm sorry, but yeah, there was, but there were some nice people. Oh, there was one Scotts guy. Uh, when the lights were out, we we used to go and, um, sit. I'd either sit by his bunk or he'd sit by mine and the hands would be under [00:15:00] the blanket. Yeah, and that was that was interesting, but that was that was as far as it went. I don't know whether that answers your question or not well, with my sort of, um, honesty. But yeah, but sort of a late starter, I think, might be the phrase because growing up with two older Metro brothers and a society that [00:15:30] said, you should conform and not be different, I think that was a struggle and it was expected of me to get married, have kids and do everything that society predicted. And I think that stop me sort of venturing away from what people considered Norm. And I do remember some incidents in [00:16:00] when I was working there of going to the ward baths they had male and female, separate and male were naked. I enjoyed the nudity. I thought it was great. But at that stage I also enjoyed the fact that I could admire naked bodies, and I do remember two Americans arrive all over suntans and obviously were flirtatious and getting aroused and thought, Wow, this is not right And so I didn't further that very [00:16:30] much. I've been getting felt under the water, and I didn't sort of progress until I think I started travelling. And when I started travelling around the world, that was when I was 30. And then I started to explore my sexuality. But then it's interesting you just said that this is not right because it does reflect what the attitudes were. What was on me. Um, is that, um you know OK, what [00:17:00] I was doing, what I was feeling was really not, as you say, normal. It was something outside. Of course it was illegal. Um, so I did, uh another factor to it is made life really quite difficult because I mixed with, um, what happened is my brother. He built up quite a large building company. They did like commercial work, and I was working in the nursery, and I always had a love of plants [00:17:30] and was very keen on plants. But he told me, um, that if I came back to Wellington and did a adult apprenticeship and carpentry, then we could move into doing spec houses. I would design gardens and design work, and but I had to help also with building. And as I did have already under my belt was school certificate. I took three years to get an adult, uh, to get a trade certificate? Uh, yeah. [00:18:00] Got the, uh, a trade did go for advanced trade. And that is how that knowledge of why I built this house myself, but my planting and gardening was the thing that I was more keen on. But of course, um, mixing with that you mix with people who are pretty macho, and you had to sit through the jokes. And also, I remember [00:18:30] one of the guys who was going into partnership with my brother because there was, as I said, a large firm. He had about 14 guys working for him. Um, one of the things is he did relate how they went to San Francisco. Groups of them. He was with the volunteer Naval Reserve or something and how they would bait guys in the toilets. I mean, uh, when they got their cock out and it got hard, then they'd take them out and beat them up. Uh, delightful things to, wasn't it? [00:19:00] And anyway, uh, that sort of didn't help. But once I had my exams and I was ready, uh, I always wanted to travel, so it wasn't until I was 30 then I took off and travelled for five years and first of all, living two years in New Caledonia and where I learned French and I did find a game as we were constructing homes that have been precut in New Zealand that you are mixing in that circle [00:19:30] of macho bulldozer drivers, plumbers, et cetera from New Zealand or Australia. And that's people you mix with. But I did know going to Europe. But, uh, learning French would help a lot with travel, and I enjoyed it. So that's when I really got started learning French, and now, uh, I don't know if well, John knows, But, um, I do tours at in French. Just me is that I'd [00:20:00] never realised it before. Is that both you and I sort of left home. We stepped out of the environment in which we had grown up. Uh, and we both thought we needed to do that to be ourselves. But the one thing by learning French, because it got to the stage where I had to translate for these Kiwis in English, and the woman who actually ran this working man's camp where we first stayed said about the quickest she'd ever known anyone [00:20:30] to pick the language up. So they always kept calling me for translations. Like someone walked in a Frenchman walk in and everyone spoke English, and they'd say, Get there, get there, you know, and And this gave me some sort of esteem because one guy said, Oh, we thought you were a little bit odd. You're a little bit feminine or something. And but he said no, you're a really good guy. And, you know, said you're a great asset for us to have around. Yeah, obviously. [00:21:00] But, um yeah, anyway, anyway, uh, John and my self, we both now share that passion of the French language, which is wonderful French culture. Really? Um, no leaving, um, Britain for New Zealand was, in some ways, an accident. I. I said earlier that I was unsettled. I'd had two or three jobs, and I think I probably got out of one job. Before [00:21:30] I was sacked, I worked for Jason swimwear, and somehow it didn't. Joel and, um, I used to have lunch with a friend, uh, every so often, and we walked past what was then the New Zealand High Commission in Leicester Square. and they had. They were in the criteria hotel. They had this small window advertising and immigration scheme. You know, we want bridge builders, carpenters, all this sort of thing. [00:22:00] So we didn't take a great deal of notice that we knew it. And then one day we said it says office workers, and we looked at each other. Hm. So we went in and came up with pictures of sheep and sunshine, and here I am. You know, it wasn't the sheep I might add that interested me, but, um, it it was a gamble, and you had to go through medicals and examinations and tests and checks and all this sort of thing, and we had to leave, not from London. But we got onto the ship at Glasgow, [00:22:30] and as the boat pulled away from the water and I saw the water between me and the end, I thought, Oh, shit, I'm going to New Zealand. But then it took me 40 years to go back because I found it absolutely wonderful here in so many ways, people were very friendly. Uh, the ship was a bit crowded and most people were from Glasgow, so I had a few language difficulties there occasionally, but, um, it was it was the right thing to do. The job was fine. The people were fine. The accommodation [00:23:00] out at Trentham camp was fine for a while to have found somewhere else to live. And yeah, it was good. Never regretted it. Well, we both got many tales to tell. We move on a little bit because I could go on for quite a while about some of the things that happened travelling around Europe and we living in Britain and travel around Europe, North Africa and North America. But, uh, do we do we go back to sort of how we met? [00:23:30] Would this be pertinent? Yeah. I, I think that's good, because I can still remember seeing John sitting on that couch when we went to that lunch. Yeah, it was quite a few years back. I can still remember and thinking, Oh, I like that one. He was busy talking to someone who I think fancied themselves more than, uh, more than what other people did. But it was John who, uh, took my attention. [00:24:00] It was it was quite interesting. I was talking to someone else and Suddenly I was aware of this electricity on my left hand side, and I thought, Who the hell is this trying to butt in? You know, and I'd seen this man before because, like many people were on the steps of parliament when the infamous petition against law reform was presented. And Des, at that time, was it a bobbing up and down [00:24:30] in his tank soliciting money for advertisements to press for the law to go through with the same age of consent, which I supported. So I gave him money, and I've almost been with him ever since I bought him, you see, but, um, we didn't know each other at that time. Um, I did see him again very briefly one night at the Victoria Club. Um, but he was very [00:25:00] busy. I was obviously very aware of this man. And suddenly he appears at this house warming, which the then director of our was having up in. And, um, we got chatting, and, uh, I was living at the time in and was here, got chatting, and he said, Well, would you come home and buy a buy A. And I thought name is man, I live there. You live there, you know, Wrong [00:25:30] side of the triangle. Anyway, he had I said, don't think so. And he headed off to his car. And I thought, John, you're being stupid here. So went and got his address as he took off, followed him home. Bingo. And we, uh, made instant contact as it were, and then very shortly, we had a I packed my here. We like to go out again, you know? And we went to the School [00:26:00] of dance annual graduation performance at the opera house, and they were, And we've been going to those graduation performances virtually ever since and in that time. But of course, the first few years, John having his home and must have found mine, uh, but getting together regularly or pretty regularly. And if we didn't get together, it was phones. And then it was sort of like those bloody cats you had out there [00:26:30] needed feeding. My daughters did the big OE or oh, Emma was actually down at Canterbury University, and I think roof was in Britain and they left him with three cats and 500 pot plants. You know, uh, not many pot plants survived. It's not all the cats survive, and the neighbours were very good about sometimes had to leave. I better go and feed those cats, like, two days down here. And [00:27:00] but other than that, we've hardly been a part of all. I don't think, um, other than myself. Uh, well, John being involved in theatre because you had the rehearsals, but that's not going away. And then at the time, of course, doing to the land. And that takes me away for quite a few hours most of the time spent together. That's how I like it. What year did you meet? Well, [00:27:30] I think it must have been 1987. It was 19. September 1987. 26. Yeah. Before we talk about your relationship, can you tell me a wee bit about what New Zealand was like, Say, from the 19 sixties, through to the eighties in terms of of kind of homosexuality? Yeah, it was, um I left one with a sense of apprehension. I would think I mean, um, I didn't explore my [00:28:00] that side of me. In fact, I thought, Well, you know, it was probably a a passing thing to some extent, and I met this wonderful woman. I used to go to, um, recorded music evenings. Every so often, one would sort of go to someone's house and you set up a programme of of this, it might be, or it might be a mixed programme and chat and have something a bit like the French evenings that we have now only with music. And, um, I met Adrian and we [00:28:30] got on very well, and, uh, we decided to get married. And we did. She was from Ireland, and, uh, she lost a lung just before we were due to get married. And she was Catholic, and I wasn't. And, um, anyway, it worked very well. And then, um, had two Children, which was a little bit of a surprise, because a woman with one lung is not going to find it terribly easy to have your Children. The kids are are good. They're very good with and myself. [00:29:00] Um, that took a little while, of course, because I imagine that they'd have been they were very attached to Adrian. And, um, another woman would have raised problems as well, let alone another a man, you know, um, but um she had cancer, and we had a difficult few years together at the end. And, uh, she went into Mary Potter hospitals on our 20th wedding anniversary. And after that, I had two [00:29:30] girls on my own for about seven years until I thought I should do something for the hospice because they were bloody wonderful. And they were They still support what they do very much. Uh, but I tried it and couldn't cope emotionally. It was far too close. I do. So I thought, What else do I do? And HIV was very sort of very much in the news. And I thought, Oh, I could do something with the [00:30:00] AIDS Foundation so long, then got accepted as a volunteer. And, of course, it was, um, not entirely altruistic motive, I'm sure because I knew that I would meet, came in And, um, I did. I lost a lot of them, too, unfortunately, but Des was at that time also a volunteer and our paths cross and bingo. But the, uh, you were saying about [00:30:30] 19 sixties? What I would like to add with that is that was my early twenties up to late 20. It's in the 19 sixties, but a lot of poofter jokes and a lot of about, you know, guys who would dare go with another guy. But it all was a start. I think of more visibility because that was the era of Carmen and Carmen. Uh, [00:31:00] yeah, not with us anymore. But Carvin did something to the psyche of Wellington. It was her flamboyance and the whole drag queen that was thrust into the face of the population of Wellington. And there's no doubt about it, Carmen and be which was the nightclub and the coffee bar. And, um, Carmen's the cafe she had and, uh, Vivian [00:31:30] Street All that was a wonderful thing. And I remember going to at John Street, they had the winter show. They called it and you'd be there and Carmen would arrive with an entourage. And it I was just fascinated. And also, uh, announcer Peter Sinclair, who was well known for being flamboyant and visible, And Peter Sinclair was not a drag queen but very [00:32:00] flamboyant gay man. And all these was setting in motion a change in thinking and that rather dull white middle class, uh, sort of Wellington. It was the coffee bar the coffee bar, which she had the six o'clock closing of the pubs and the six o'clock throw out. A lot of them wanted to go elsewhere, so the coffee bar manifested and the coffee bar scene was quite something, [00:32:30] especially when you had something like Carmen's. It was Carmen's coffee bar, and the was upstairs when, um where the library is now. And I remember going up there because stag parties were often held at the or you'd go up there, uh, for your Christmas do you'd have at work with all the builders, and then you go to the Balcon, and, uh, of course, there's all this going [00:33:00] on about these guys want to suck your cock and all this sort of talk. But that was all sort of a change happening. I think you're right, because there were a lot of people that Asian and I knew who would say I was gonna have coffee at Carmen's place, you know, And this was your your white middle class society enjoying the difference and revelling in the and by being there, actually supporting that difference in the code, the code she had [00:33:30] you'd have heard of the code. Yeah, John, heard of the code. The way you placed your cup is what sort of sex you wanted was on top or whether the cup was upside down or Yeah, that was It was it was quite interesting. So that that was, uh, Carmen Peter Sinclair. I was just trying to think of anyone else who sort of stood out at that time in the sixties. But things changed. Seventies. Most of my seventies was [00:34:00] spent out of New Zealand coming back here, Uh, until the latter part of the seventies was concentrating on building my house. So the seventies wasn't sort of, uh, to me, uh, well overseas. It was, as I said, lots of tales, But getting back to attitude at that time, I could never, ever have come out at work. Um, I sort of worked my way through to [00:34:30] moderately senior positions in the in the public service, but I was aware of one or two people who had come out who had made it quite clear that they were gay and they got no promotion whatsoever. I mean, there was a distinct discrimination against gay guys, and, um so, you know, for sheer livelihood purposes. There was no way I could say OK, no way. I could do what it does. And I have done today you be visible because [00:35:00] I do think that being visible is still crucial. And was it Fran Wilde who said, you know, the TV S? Visibility and vigilant? I think we need both of them. Yeah. Dez, can you talk to me just a wee bit about some of your overseas experiences and and how they, um, changed you coming back to New Zealand? Well, first of all, uh, flitting with an Australian who was a sex maniac heterosexual. The [00:35:30] disappointment that his attitude was sick. So, you know, if he could screw anything, he didn't care what it was, but he used to park his car or his van. He was a, um, a sheet metal worker. He used to do duck for the, um, some of the big buildings they were doing for air conditioning. So he had this very large van, and he used to go down to the military. The French military. Um uh, what do they call it? [00:36:00] Uh, well, anyway, well, it was where all the military, a lot of guys from Tahiti used to come in, and this was them doing their military service, which is well, I presume it still is and was compulsory. So you had a lot of young, uh, military men in new Mia. And I remember Liz coming and said, Oh, well, you said, you know, I put my car, put my car down there. You don't have to wait very long. And a guy was sort of walk around your van [00:36:30] several times and you say you open up a door and he jumps and sucks you off. And I thought, God, he has all these women. And then then some guy sucks his dick, And I thought, Oh, you know, maybe that's what I'm like. And I thought, Oh, that's all right, you know? So what? And I thought I'd give it a go sort of thing. Yeah, and, uh, were you circling the van or I don't think I need to know this, but anyway, that sort of started changing [00:37:00] my attitude. You know, if he can do that. But I didn't want to label myself. I thought, Oh, no, I'm just a a liberated person. I'm not gay. I'm not heterosexual. I'm not homosexual or anything. I'm a liberated person, and I'm like and I can do anything. But I still remember him sort of running around the flat in the morning with a heart on saying, I wish you were a homosexual. I'd stick this in your mouth. So that was the start. But when I went over to Europe and Britain and and, uh, travelled, [00:37:30] and then I found out that I rather enjoyed some of the nude beaches there, and some of them also had areas where, uh, they were just men. And I thought, Oh, that is even better. And so I drifted down to, um, Israel. I went down to the Red Sea, did diving, found that in the sand dunes at night. It was rather great and getting felt up by a guy and thought, Oh, this is all rather fun. And then going to Mykonos, the famous beaches of Mykonos, the paradise [00:38:00] super paradise in Alan, the three beaches where the new beaches one is straits and one is, uh, gays. And the other one is, uh, people who have got incredible wealth. And so exploring those three beaches, the gays don't have incredible work. There were gays on the other beach. But anyway, uh, that whole sort of change. And I remember when I went back to London, I thought, Oh, you [00:38:30] know, how can you explore gay bars or something like that? So that all all started changing. But coming back to New Zealand, um, in the late seventies, all of a sudden I felt this sort of restriction of New Zealand and, uh, but then again, I got very busy building the house and, uh, sort of got involved with settling down. I thought, Well, maybe I could settle down. And an American woman I had met while I was travelling through the States decided she'd come over. I just suggested Well, maybe she'd like to come [00:39:00] and see New Zealand, but she came with the hots with the idea of marriage and when she saw the house and the size of it, this is, um Oh, I am a dick. She decided this is where she was going to live. Advertising costs more. And anyway, that was quite a complicated issue, because here I had a family say, get married to her, get married to her. You can't just live with her and I thought, No, I don't want to get married. I don't want to get married. I don't want to get married with that woman [00:39:30] MU a that all that all finished. And then, of course, along came homosexual law reform. When I totally came out and got very involved in homosexual reform. Tell me about the homosexual law reform. What? What? What did you do with that? I did very little. I was very aware of it. Um, but I had two daughters on my own at that time. Um and I guess I sort of wrote the occasional letters to the paper or gave a bit of cash [00:40:00] here. Active very, very lightly. I. I just wasn't deeply involved and certainly nothing as deeply as there. Yeah, it was just not a practical thing for me. It wasn't when the bill first came out, but, uh, I think it was I was busy, actually, landscaping. I built the house and I was just doing some landscaping outside. And I was building a, uh, a stream effect in the bottom [00:40:30] lawn area of our garden. And I listened to talk back, and I just couldn't believe what By that time, I'd made some gay friends and still didn't consider myself gay, but more as bisexual. And I sort of heard what people were saying on talkback, and I just couldn't believe it. Um, not generally, but I listened to talk back, but I had been doing a small job for a woman in and, uh, she said to [00:41:00] me, uh, another woman I got, uh, went past and she said, Have you heard the talk back? I was a national radio person. I said no. So I've listened to the talk back and I listened to it here, and it was just incredible, because what we found out afterwards, the fundamentalist Christian sect of America had sort of advised people how to stop this bill going through. And that was one of the things get on, talk back, make sure we get on that. And of course, uh [00:41:30] uh, immediately I wanted to give another viewpoint. So this woman who, uh, this woman who I was doing some work for, said, uh, look, come in and use the phone any time and get on talk back because she had a relation who was gay. And she said she got me some more material and I read quite a bit. And another friend gave me a book. [00:42:00] So I was becoming more articulate. And so I got to know Paul Holmes as, uh, producer Mary Anne and and also him. And because what happened when I rang up, the phone lines would get jammed with all the aunties. So she said to me, We will phone you at 11. 30 then you say something and then what? We We've only got room for two more calls [00:42:30] and ads until it's midday, when they finish the talk back. So they rang me at 11. 30. I used to put in a good plug. And then So Paul Holmes was, um, was very good, because I remember when homosexual law reform went through, we actually also gave him a bouquet of flowers. But what happened was that they created a group called Hug Heterosexuals unafraid of gays in Auckland. And that came on the television. And then it came on the, um [00:43:00] on the radio and the news. And Maureen, I remember Maureen Walker, whom I was working for. Still friends of her there came out to me. I was working outside, she said. We've got to get this group going, she said. Have you heard about it? I said Yes. She says, Well, come in and we'll see what we can do I said, OK, so I rang up. Paul Holmes did the usual thing, and I said, Anyone interested in forming a group, uh, in Wellington, The hug? Well, the thing exploded. It just, uh I gave [00:43:30] my phone number my private phone number. And, uh, and because at that stage, I didn't care. Damn. You know, I was on a roll, I think. Anyway, I gave my private phone number. That phone did not stop ringing, and it was all positive. There was one guy who rang up. He was, I think, a Pacific Islander. And he started talking to me about why are you supporting people who stick things in each other? And then I spoke to him, [00:44:00] and then I found out I think he's gay. And then I spoke to him, and I actually turned him right around, and I thought, Oh, this is good. Anyway, we had the first meeting, um, in the old library, Uh, a small room that was underneath we hired and, uh, we got donations. We got, uh, committee and this house downstairs was like a big office. We got a typewriter and we got a desk. A woman offer to be the secretary. We printed [00:44:30] stuff. I saw me friend Wild. We went up to Parliament and it made the bad. I bought untold stuff on there on their copies because the guy said to me, This is an expensive way to do it. I said, Oh, yeah, that's all right. And I used to go up there and I used to stay there until the machine I run out of ink ran out of paper, just broke down. In some ways, when we have got I eventually joined up the gay Task force and then from Gay Task Force. Um, [00:45:00] we had different strategies and also put posters up right through Wellington. There were more posters in Wellington, I think, than any other place in New Zealand. But, um, there was a a young woman of 16 rang me up and asked if she could help. She was still at college, and she's now well known authors. That's, um, Emily Perkins, Emily Perkins and Emily Rang me up and, um, to help. And I said, Well, come out with me [00:45:30] after school and we'll put posters up, which we did. We littered the place of posters because we had enough funds coming in. We printed off hundreds at a time, and, uh, I was a few Jewish people organised with hug, and they went overboard with these posters. We had more than what we knew what to do with, and but I remember I put captions on them, but I printed off the machines at Parliament, so it didn't cost us too much. And there was a guy one of these, Uh, I think [00:46:00] he was a bit insane, though. One of these, uh, sort of so called Christians going around with a paint scraper, scraping them off. So I said to Emily, Look, every time he does that, we'll go and put up six more where he scraped it off, which we did. Then I put a ladder on the back of the van and she'd hold the ladder and pass up the glue so he'd put them all up high, how to frustrate a Christian. Anyway, we did all that sort of thing, and um uh, a lot of media. Uh, [00:46:30] I was with gay BC. They rang up and asked me if I could do reports, and eventually they got me doing a regular programme. And then John joined in on that. But the other thing is, And before the bill was passed, our first meeting of gay task force was to affair we thought about and F for. And so that was the first gay lesbian fair. So I got involved with that, and we went around [00:47:00] to try and work out where we would hold it. Newtown school seemed like neutral territory, and also it was, um, a reasonable cost. Whereas something like Town Hall was exorbitant couldn't afford that and continued with that fear the next year, the two who helped me with that weren't interested. So I ran it on my own the next year and completely funded it. Um, we had to pay everything in advance, and I funded out of my own money because I wasn't earning much running around [00:47:30] because I gave up work. Totally. Uh, but what I did, I rented out two rooms of the house which gave me an income and fortune. I didn't have a big mortgage, but, uh, it was, like, two years, No income. Uh, other than renting out rooms and sort of doing a few odd jobs here and there. I did a few garden jobs just to keep some money coming in, but virtually devoting myself totally to getting this bill through, and also next time was to ensure that the second [00:48:00] fare was a success. And it was, and I made a profit. Not only did I pay myself back, I had some money in the bank to keep, uh, making sure the fare was OK. What year was that? First fear. That was 1986 January, March 1986 because the bill was passed ninth of July 1986 after that. So the first fear was, Yeah, it was in, uh, the second week of March, [00:48:30] I think was the time we selected and, uh, it was just held in the hall. It was, uh, and the next one was the third one. We expanded into the grounds, and then it grew from there. And then John meeting up with John was great because he also helped with the fair. He was entertainment manager and the 10th Fair was quite a blast and the final one. But there was enough money from that fund that I created to [00:49:00] on the 10th anniversary of homosexual law reform. We had 14 events over 14 days, and quite a lot of them had to be funded. And, uh, that was the money that at the time, and we developed this exhibition called Two Years of Fury and we used the law school and the old government built it. Um, and it was wonderful. Absolutely fabulous. Who Who's the Who's the centre guy? Bill Hastings [00:49:30] was deputy head of the law school, and, uh, he facilitated things for us. So we got this exhibition together and it ran for a fortnight. And, um, the various other events went on dinners and the tour. The lovely bus. Funny things. I still remember that Young and A and Laurie decided to have a bus, a historic places in Wellington on a bus tour, and [00:50:00] they were standing up commentating and we were all sitting down looking out and the bus stopped. And Alison Lary said there was a lesbian club here before, and everyone looked at the bus and It was a new factory called Tongue and groove. The bus exploded. They actually exploded. Laughter because Alison here is standing there. What the hell are these people so funny with that? So there we are. That was, um that was That was good. Yeah. That was one of the events we had plus a [00:50:30] dinner at. Um uh, it was Marcus play. Yeah. And then we had, um, uh, a big party at, uh, the, uh, grand room. What they call it in parliament. The the straight ahead of you. And we had a big party there, but we were not allowed to sell liquor. We had [00:51:00] to provide it, which we did. And, um, yeah, so I remember, uh, some people getting rather bit high on that, and we had entertainment as well. But the entertain was very good And Sue Dunlop. And unfortunately, Sue died. Uh, but I remember Sue Dunlop. Whenever I wanted entertainment. She would always be so obliging and so good. And yet some [00:51:30] gay guys I know want to know how much money I was going to pay them. And, uh, yeah, I remember still paying one of the amount of dollars and gave them as cash, and I staying there. Busy counting, making sure it was all them. I thought, No, you don't do that. Yeah. Why do you think something like hug was so successful Because gay homosexual law reform was clinical? No, not homosexual reform. Sorry. The homosexual Law Reform Society. [00:52:00] I think they called themselves and that was a a bunch of academics, uh, from university, not necessarily gay people, but they were a academics, and it did sort of have a clinical feel. Um, gay task force was for gay lesbians. Hug, with its bright bright pink badge, and its catchy name gave a chance for people to [00:52:30] be involved who were not out, were friends of gays or family. And it was all of a sudden people feeling frustrated that they couldn't do anything with what was happening in New Zealand. And when you think about it, the opposition had so much money, and a lot of this was American money. But that opposition came with full page ads against the bill and every paper [00:53:00] in New Zealand. Now, the presentation on the steps of Parliament, all the but it had all the hallmarks of Nazi Germany. and these people were so militant and so, uh, bigot head, that the people and basically New Zealanders are just even those ones who might have made the jokes or said, SN [00:53:30] things about homosexuals all of a sudden realised that, you know, there are people who are gay, and here was a chance that they could do something. And I think that's why it was an incredibly, uh, quick growing group. There was those remarks, uh, like the frames. Who? Those brothers who always seemed to be anti gay. Um, they made comments like, Oh, everyone who joins Hug is just a closet homosexual type attitude. [00:54:00] But that wasn't so. I mean, I met some wonderful people through that people like Shirley Smith, who was a lawyer and also she was the wife. As such, uh, she gave generously to hug. Every time she saw me, she'd give me $50 sort of thing. Then she'd apologise that she hadn't given me any money recently would give 100. I mean, people like her people like Lloyd Gehring, who I admire so much even now, I mean, that guy is still putting out. I mean, he's in his nineties he's still putting out some [00:54:30] wonderful lectures on life. People like him. Uh, people like Divino White House. And I mean, you meet these wonderful people and these people are an inspiration, and they have a comprehension of what this world is about. That's an intellect. Hm? I think you know, you may think of the support that came through for the civil Union [00:55:00] bill, too. It really came from everywhere, didn't it? Yeah, because because in all New Zealanders, if you're going to criticise New Zealanders or I don't know if it was a criticism, you could say that That's how I feel. They are reserved, but they're not conservative. Conservative means no change. Reserve means you're going to take a while. And that's not a bad thing. And I think we can say that we are, uh we are reserved. [00:55:30] We don't sort of, although sometimes I don't know if I'm very reserved, but I rather like a comment when South Americans do come to live here. One of the criticisms is that we don't have that sort of Ra Ra ra and flamboyance and and yeah, and sometimes when you see people on the street and just black and grey, and that's the colour and, uh, without the flair, not like the wonderful saris of India [00:56:00] or or the colour, but that is not a bad. But we We have changed considerably over the years, and I arrived here in 1956. I was astonished. You never really saw people saying goodbye in an affectionate way at the railway station, whereas at Waterloo or somewhere in Victoria Station, people will kiss and cry or whatever. Uh, but now you see it, and I think that's why people do express affection. [00:56:30] I wait for the day when we can walk down the street, hand in hand, comfortably without somebody crying faggot after us. I look forward to that. It's it's bound to go, but it will take a while. But the, uh, I think this is where I like French society. We are found in living in French society. We have found that the French were not so judgmental. They met you. They just made a few inquiries about the sort of person you are. They either liked you or they didn't like you as to who you were, [00:57:00] rather than putting you into a box like your job and, uh, the way you look her your sexuality, there was far more. Uh oh, yeah, yeah. This guy's got an interest that I follow along. He's funny, and I somehow fitted very company into French society. Also, I'd rather like the way kiss on both cheeks, male and female. He also likes the cakes, the patisserie. The first time we went to France, together we put on 8 kg. But that's another story, isn't it? [00:57:30] Getting back to when you guys first met. Can you just tell me, um, what attracted you to each other? Oh, yeah, I guess the the vitality. I mean, I remember days from the his activity on the steps of Parliament. During the presentation of that petition, I thought, he's a man who's got a spark, and that spark is continued. It's still there. And, uh, you know, obviously, uh, physically [00:58:00] attractive to me too. And warm Open what else to say? You know, just bingo. It was It was, as I said in my submission on civil union, Bill uh, way, way back. It was love at first sight. Now I remember your smile, and I still look at you now and say, Oh, you're so cute. Oh, dear cute. I'm not so sure about that anyway. [00:58:30] But it it it's there and it's it's it's stayed there, which is wonderful. Yeah. Can you describe each other? How do you describe another person? Yeah, I. I, John always feel as has a very good intelligence and he can laugh and he can smile and get a bit shit. He live it should he lose his. But [00:59:00] we can do things together. And I think this is the joy that we're both sort of drift into each other's interests and sort of absorbed them. And we do things together and they've overlapped. My interests have expanded because of this. And I think, And also when we go out, we engage with people and we engage with those this the people that we both engage with, that we both like we [00:59:30] did the Myers Briggs test way back. This is so Paula. Brit Kenny put us onto this, didn't she? Basically And there were interesting parallels. De is, as is probably evident this afternoon, much more of an extrovert than I am. But we're both there. We're both at the same end of the scale, the same range of interests, the same range of is quality is the right word or characteristics that, uh, sort of basically, uh, defined. And, [01:00:00] uh yeah, there there are the aspects of DES which, you know are are quite fascinating. I mean, his enthusiasm for so many, his ability to retain information about, you know, plants and things that you really gets Me I can't remember sort of Latin names and things. And he came. Um but we both like words. We both like playing with words, Don't we like [01:00:30] which, of course, you hear if you go to the vagabond in Paris, that was said to me in Paris a guy who we were from New Zealand and he came up to us, he didn't speak English and he said to me and I go back to him a palm tree from New Zealand. He was a palm expert and he knew New Zealand only by its palm, and that was its botanical name. [01:01:00] Immediately he was I was quite staggered that he came up and said that, but he was staggered because I immediately replied as to what an unusual approach to the let's put it like that. But he gave me his email because he'd never been to New Zealand. I said, Well, maybe you should come and have a look at, which is the Nico Palm. And, uh, it was one of those addresses you put in your pocket. I mean, you clean [01:01:30] your pocket out and it disappears, so that never followed. But, um, yeah, that would have been rather fun if I could have contacted them again. But we have had a number of leaks through what we tend to call the Pink Mafia or the, uh, because we had met some French people here. And then we met them again in in France and had dinner with some of their friends, and then their friends came here, and it sort of snowballed, you know? And, uh, we [01:02:00] had a couple of guys here from, uh, last week, Uh, who? We'd not met before. Um, they run a boarding house of a B and B in in in France and wonderful. They were such joyful people that were so interested and interesting. And we had wonderful dinners. We sitting here and it it was like being in France in some ways. because the dinners went from the gin and tonic on the veranda to, uh, sort of coffee at half past 10. At night? Just Yep, [01:02:30] yep, yep, yep. Practising our French. It was very good. That's digressed. Where do we go now? Well, civil Union, I suppose we go to well before we get to the Civil Union. Well, this is where we ask you how long you've got. No. Maybe this leads into the civil Union. I'm wondering, can you describe how your relationship changes over time? How has it changed from when you first went out together? [01:03:00] Well, it's changed as much as II. I think this is probably learned to tolerate my thoughts over the years. Uh, and that would be reciprocal. I guess not that there are many, of course, but, um, I, I think mellow, don't they? In relationships, I mean, um, passion changes. It doesn't disappear. Uh, but II, I guess You know, at my [01:03:30] age, the fervent lust is is there quite as frequently? Um, but, um, we still have fun on all on all levels. And that, I think, is one of the one of the joys of I see is that we? We have a lot of fun. You know, People say how how long have you been together? And we told them, How do you manage it? It's fun. It's great fun. Yeah, it it took four years, so we we never allowed anyone else to enter our [01:04:00] relationship. Actually, it was very, very monogamous. But after that, we we have reached out a little bit to enjoy the company of someone else. And I think this is the way relationships sometimes evolve and long as neither of us are missing out on fun. And I think that's the main thing that we still look after each other. If there is somebody else involved in our relationship and I, I think that's how it has changed [01:04:30] in that 20 26 26 26 years of a relationship together. Hm. But that must also mean things like, um, trust and honesty and talk to you. Couldn't get away with anything. You got that from my daughter. She said, Be careful. Those hawk eyes [01:05:00] will watch you everywhere. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Trust trust is essential and is basic to any long term relationship. I would have thought we are honest with each other. Yeah, yeah, and I think that's important. And, uh, far as I'm concerned, you only get one shot at this life and make the most of it. But I do feel also that to contribute. So [01:05:30] when you leave, it is a better place. Uh, To me, that's important. And while you're doing that, have fun. Yeah, don't sort of dwell on things. You can't regret anything, and you can't change what's happened and important to be you who you are very important. I think that's the advice. I certainly agree with the regrets that there's no future. There's no point in regretting things. [01:06:00] Uh, you might sort of temporary feel sorry, but you can't sort of hang her after something which didn't happen or something you should have done. You just It's a It's a question of moving on. We all make mistakes one way or another and, uh, made a mistake. You move, and I'd like to think more people Christian authority. Half our battles do go, and people just accepting what some nutter tells them [01:06:30] they should question instead of that blind faith. And, uh, if someone's in a family where they have strong beliefs question it. Don't just accept that what you've been told. I can tell you how to live, but I don't mean to say I've got the answer at all, But I don't think you should tell anybody how to live. Yeah, but a lot of people like her. Uh, but if [01:07:00] you can see it by example like John and myself, I do call it water syndrome. But by being visible by appearing in the dom post by appearing in express, um doesn't mean I don't feel as if anyone special, but I do feel by doing that we are helping society by saying, Oh, those two guys be happy together. Why can't I be type of thing? So by being visible and set [01:07:30] an example like nowadays being involved with restoration work of native trees, I'm far more committed to planting native plants now than exotics. Where way back I was more, uh, wanting to have that balance of I always like native plants. But now we're doing some restoration work around by railway station. One of the people helped me want to put more exotics, and I said, No, we'll do a good job of natives and someone's going to come and say I like [01:08:00] that if we put exotics and they say, Well, I like that, that's OK But if we can do a good job of just natives, then people are going to follow that, and to me, it's important that we preserve what we've got. And this is important in the gay community that we are visible and people see us and say We like that We like those two guys and I think it was Tony Simpson did say during the Civil Union bill. He was out at a dinner and we'd appeared in a paper. This is not [01:08:30] gay people. It was just a whole mixture of people and one guy. Oh, did you see those two guys in the paper? Uh, they're our age sort of thing. And they, you know, that really was quite something. You know, I only wanted to get some recognition of their relationship. So this visibility and set an example to me is important on that particular issue. And we are simply a suburban, settled, reasonably stable couple and [01:09:00] non threatening to anybody, which is possibly why we must show our surprise. We ended up in this roller coaster ride, having first of all, started up the civil Union Bill Support Society. Get Peter Peter Dunn, who was saying, you know, simply pink thing on the part of the Labour Party, and, uh, nobody wanted it, and the bill hadn't even been published. And we got really, uh, little uptight with Peter Dunn. And he had the temerity during the course of the campaign [01:09:30] to say to me, It's nothing personal, John. Oh, shit. Peter. It couldn't be more personal if you tried your opposition. You know, you're trying to stop me having something which you take for granted. Yeah. Anyway, talk. Talk to me now about the civil union bill and and also getting civil union. Oh, OK. Well, that that was That was a wonderful experience. Really. Um, I don't know if we were set up on that, but [01:10:00] it was It was on the first day, but what happened was that, you know, we got the bill, um, and bit between our teeth. Really. Against Peter Dunn, we publicised the civil union Bill support Society. We got lots and lots of support. It was wonderful. Unfortunately, we weren't relying on typewriter and things like the law reform days. It was all computerised, and we could email. And anyway, we made [01:10:30] a our submissions, and we wanted to give an oral submission. And somewhat to our surprise, we found we were caught up on the first day. And, of course, the press were there in droves. So I got very emotional. In fact, I cried. Um, it's Yeah, it it was It was It was a very tense thing, sort of being so personal and so out for me at that particular moment. But afterwards, uh, [01:11:00] Nick, we that was a different time, wasn't it? Anyway, I'm sorry, getting confused here, but Nick knows the Dominion wanted a couple to talk about the bill and prepared to go public. So we did. We sat on, talked to Nick, and somebody took a picture on the steps of parliament. And then it was a roller coaster. Thereafter we seemed to become Well, they called us the poster boys. But it wasn't our doing. We just sort of. [01:11:30] But we'd go along the streets and people would come out of rest and say good on you, wouldn't it? Yeah, it was It was moving, uh, interesting though, Um, the thing that I think that motivated us was really when Peter Dunn tried to get one part through but not the other part through was If you live as a married couple, then you only receive benefits as a married couple. [01:12:00] So in other words, you had no rights, but you had all the responsibilities. And that's why we that's why we instead of like quite a few people, criticised us, said, Oh, why don't you just go for marriage and forget civil Union? But it was important. Civil Union Bill did go through because it was obviously that we were going to have rights, no rights, but would have responsibilities and by no right by having not having that right, [01:12:30] wills can be challenged no matter who you are. And if you do have a bit of paper to say you have a legal relationship, then that does well. The challenge is less likely to be successful, and it was a pragmatic decision to I mean, I think we we both really wanted marriage in the first place, didn't we? Yes, we we debated whether do we support this because it not only doing homosexual law reform. To me, it was 16 or [01:13:00] nothing. You were equal of heterosexuals. And I remember saying that I don't care if that Bill goes, does go, doesn't go through. It has to be 16 or nothing. And then I thought, Do I say it's got to be marriage or nothing? But when realising that we were going to and we were not we we're not getting younger and that it was a good idea. But we did have a chance. People of us and now people of our to have their relationship legally recognised. [01:13:30] And this is a game with the marriage bill. Uh, when we changed to the marriage act is again, I think a very, very important piece of legislation. It was equality and human rights. Pragmatic strategy. I don't think we would have got merged through eight years ago. I really don't. Um but we gained a hell of a lot by that by getting a civil union, and it was never a numbers game. It was just an option. I mean, nobody is forcing anybody [01:14:00] to get married or to have a civil union, and certainly no was forcing any, uh, religious minister to officiate at any such, uh, event. But, um, it's it's an option that everybody should have. Whether they take it up is another matter. And I'm all for marriage. Equality going back to the mid two thousands when civil unions were were, um, going through, um, the bill and we have things like the destiny [01:14:30] Church march in Wellington. They were so helpful. Yeah, what? Tell me about how what was your response to something like that? That big destiny Church march? I Frankly, I thought it was wonderful because I picking up something, said earlier, He really don't like that sort of thing. And I think whoever put them in black, whoever enough is enough and this Hitler type march through town, he said. We don't want this. This is But on the other hand, [01:15:00] there's always the possibility that most cubs don't give us stuff one way or the other, about what gay or want or or need. It's it's not an issue because it doesn't affect them on a day to day basis. Um, but I think it did, um, crystallise some of people's opinion that OK, uh, we don't want to see Destiny Church sort of winning this battle and they would come out in support. Well, just [01:15:30] reinforces my bigotry about religion. On the whole No, it is. Well, I just was horrified, you know, here we are, 21st century New Zealand. Uh, other countries, unfortunately, have still got a long way to go. But New Zealand, No, we do not need this. We do not need these religious fanatics. And you certainly don't need marches that coerce Children as young [01:16:00] as eight. You know, apparently expressing their opinion by wearing the t-shirt. You know, enough is enough because they don't understand what they are marching for. I think that's child abuse. I saw a woman at a civil union rally. We had all these balloons with orange and orange and white with the colours, and we had these orange and white balloons with civil union printed on them. And this woman came up. She was smartly dressed [01:16:30] with two Children, and she, uh, told her to instruct the Children how to pop these balloons. And I remember standing up there and, uh, of course, fortunately, we did have a megaphone, which is very nice. Awesome megaphone standing up and saying Now, look at this woman. Now look what she's doing to those Children and that's so wrong. So immoral anyway scurried off. [01:17:00] And then one of these so called Christians came over to borrow, wanted to borrow the megaphone to say a prayer. Get real. It was our day. It was our day. It was the day I think the bill was passed. It was a Thursday. I remember we we we organised ourselves down at Parliament and we had a little stage [01:17:30] and a sound system. Played music, had a megaphone. It was great, That wonderful disabled woman who woman who was vocal about the aunties she had a son or brother who was gay. So she had. She was disabled, but she came up in a wheelchair. She wanted the megaphone. Boy, did she let those so called Christians. I don't know if I'd repeat all the words she gave to her, [01:18:00] but unfortunately these people sometimes look on themselves as martyrs. I try to work out. I tried to reason and try to think, Why do people need religion? It's all about hope. It's about fellowship. This is what they want. But there's other things we can do for fellowship and hope is surely, uh, hoping to make it a better world for other people. But most religions [01:18:30] don't. I think we just need this belief in a god you might be talking to an avowed religious gentleman here. Oh, I might convert him. No, I. I can't understand as to why they want to think there is a God. And who's to say there's a God, you know? 1234. I don't know. [01:19:00] There's a whole lot we don't know, but there's a lot we do know. Hm. What was that feeling? Like when civil unions passed? That was wonderful. Oh, great. I was I was in the house at the time. I was in the public gallery and we thought we had the numbers, and it was it was touch and go. But, um, yeah, it it it was a failure of Wow, that that's magic. And, um, you know, there was lots [01:19:30] of hugging and people crying, and it was just I think there was a sense of achievement. I have felt a sense of achievement because I thought I'd actually been part of helping to get it forward or helping people to understand what it was all about. So yeah, I And then I ruined that because several of us then went to the S and M bar or whatever it was at Royal Oak. I did the karaoke [01:20:00] there was There was Tim Barnett there. Um um and Mackay and me, The most appalling karaoke was stuffed up the whole evening. We were having fun. The bill went through, the bill went through, but it's the same day as he was released and our pardon or whatever it was. And it was quite a day, [01:20:30] as far as I was concerned. Yeah, yeah, that that was magic. I was delighted that there were no smoking because I have an allergy to smoke and my eyes actually swell badly in the smoke atmosphere. I've always been told to avoid it and very hard to avoid smoke when it was in bars and restaurants. And by that time, of course, carry Prega who follows her to act as her, um celebrant. And we didn't even know she was a celebrant. [01:21:00] You know, we we know carry because she visited the neighbour who was also a midwife. And, uh, we got to know there and, uh so We were delighted. And the thing gave the momentum from then on. Don't know how we managed to organise everything and go to for the honeymoon. How's that? Yeah, just rewind a wee bit. How did you propose he proposed? To who? How did that go? Oh, wow. [01:21:30] No, nothing. We do have the ring wouldn't go my finger. And I just said to everyone I'm sure someone here has got some lube. So But this car was was wonderful. And she really was, And it was fabulous. So was the brass Solidarity Band. [01:22:00] And it was a great family occasion. I think it was wonderful. Family friends from all walks of life and, uh, had a few political speeches. Tim was there. Charles was there. My oldest brother wasn't there. Yeah. Anyway, it it was a good it. It's the second party [01:22:30] we'd had at the boat shed because we had a joint 130th birthday party, an Artie party party, and they had some funny moments. It was like everybody had to sort of the shimmer and sparkle. And we had a couple of guys at the top of the stairs wearing silver shorts very tight silver shorts. It looks as they were painted on. It might have been, but and, um, putting glitter on people if they didn't [01:23:00] glitter enough when they came in. Hm. The boat show. People still talk about that party. Can you talk about, um, the idea that civil unions, I mean, that that that's such a new thing in New Zealand? And just the idea that for a lot of your relationship, that wasn't a possibility and then suddenly, to have that possibility, how does that change your outlook and and having a civil union did that. What did it mean to you? [01:23:30] Uh, what was that? Security? I do have an intensely homophobic elder brother. I know if something had happened to me, he would have immediately moved in trying to claim part of that estate, which I would not want him to have a bit of. He he's, uh, unfortunately, his makeup is. So the way he looks at life is that by putting down other groups, he's on top, which only makes him more stupid. [01:24:00] But, uh, that definitely by having that civil union was something that gave just that extra security. There's a that's a that's a sort of legal side of it, but I also and I appreciate what you're saying. But I also find that it was a chance to sort of publicly in front of friends and family have our relationship acknowledged [01:24:30] as being equal to everybody else's. So the recognition of our love and the strength of our relationship, the duration, the durability of our relationship, um, is unaccepted by a society. And we had our immediate society, our friends, our great friends, our straight friends, our family chance for the party [01:25:00] and more we can. And of course, we We jokingly said that we'll have a divorce party if the marriage equality bill goes through and then another party when we get married. So we have 22. But who knows? It might not even be necessary because at the moment, of course, heterosexual couples could have either a civil union or the marriage. Then [01:25:30] yeah, Anyway, we'll see. We'll wait and see. Would you take that step of going for a marriage over a civil union? Yes, Yes, I would. I'm sure I might want to adopt you, he said. I want you to say we won. He was asking me. Oh, I think so, yes. Um, it would be crazy not to. In some ways, it's, um, and [01:26:00] also show that civil union doesn't couldn't Could you describe it as another nail in the coffin for bigotry? It's another way we've gained against the people who who cannot think beyond some weird belief that we are wrong. And to me, that's we should acknowledge it and say, Here [01:26:30] we are. We are as good as you. Maybe we won't have such a big party this time. No, we we we will allow to Paris Anyone who wants to party come to Paris. That'll be fun. You also gave a a spoken submission to the Parliamentary Select Committee this time around for the marriage equality bill. What was that like in comparison to doing it for the civil unions Bill? I found [01:27:00] it easier. Um, you know, because the first time for me it was a very formal sort of, um, up there sort of occasion. Who were these people? And and, um, I was expressing something very personal very publicly in front of the press as well. And, um, so that was a little unusual, but this time it was a great deal easier. Um, the astonishing thing was and you know, the questions were by and large, intelligent, and the reception apart [01:27:30] from Mr um was fine. It was fine, but she's questioning was bizarre. I hardly could believe he said what he said, and he asked you if you get married, who will be the husband who will be the wife? I thought he's surely not asking what I think he's asking. So my sort of rather slow brain said, Well, really, how relevant is that? Because the marriage act is gender free at [01:28:00] the moment. And Ruth Dyson, who chair seemed to indicate to that it wasn't a relevant question. Dez chipped in and sort of broke the ice a wee bit and said, Uh, well, of course, if it helps, John does most of the cooking, which was very constructive, because it could have got quite tense because they were very bizarre question. Anyway, we formally complained to this week, and we've not had a response yet. It did go through my mind, I. I sort of looked at that guy and thought [01:28:30] what? And I went through my mind. A Jehovah witness came to our door. He recognised me from the civil Union campaign and he said to me, Oh, I recognise you from I don't know if he's a civil union campaign or something like that. He said, Are you the mister or are you the misses? So I looked at my watch and I said, You have one minute to get off this property before I get the police And as he went up by, you have heard what I called him and his ignorance [01:29:00] and stupidity and and some good language. I thought, Now you don't do that at a committee. I don't tell him what I think of him in those terms, so fortunately, uh, sort of switched it around. But we feel because they're all told to treat the the people who are giving submissions for decorum, dignity and respect that he did none of that. So he owes us an apology, [01:29:30] and if he was a decent sort of bloke, he would apologise. And it was intriguing to read in the press that when the media asked John Key whilst he was in Burma, what they thought of what he thought it was to his question. Oh, he's just doing his job. You know, I feel he needs on the job training. Do you think it will pass? I'm very hopeful that it will. I would see that, um it went to the first reading. With such a substantial majority, [01:30:00] you'd have to lose a lot of votes. And more recently, a big day out. I understand that John Key has confirmed that he will, in fact, vote for it all the way through and further indicated that he hoped, uh, other members of his party would do the same. So he's given them a bit of a note, hasn't he? That those who have already voted for it to get part way through. But, you know, I thought, What the hell is the debate about? Should there be a debate at [01:30:30] all? It should. What difference is it going to make to society? Except to gays and lesbians or, uh, transgender people or whatever, that they have the same rights? It's not impinging on anybody else's rights. It's not affecting anybody else except the couples who could benefit from the law. And it should go through. I'm very hopeful indeed. You know, I'd go along with what John says on that What you say is just sure. [01:31:00] Uh, that's how I feel, But we can't be complacent. We we've still got to say, OK, we've got to do some work on this right to the very time it goes to its last reading. So how do you see yourselves like activists or advocates or what? What? What are the words that you would use to describe ordinary springs to mind? What what springs to my mind is that, [01:31:30] uh, I over the years have become free with my thinking and as a person accepting who I am, and no one dares say that I am inferior or superior. I'm another person on this planet and, uh, should be treated equally. And I think this is why a lot of time, I do voice my opinions and, uh, [01:32:00] tolerance. You know, we should be tolerant of a whole lot of things, But why should we be tolerant of ignorance, bigotry and homophobia? I don't think we should be tolerant of that. Oh, well, it's their religion. To me. That's not an excuse. Uh, OK, that's how they were brought up. No, I don't go along with that. I don't tolerate that. And so Yeah, So I yeah, I think that [01:32:30] I'm happy to voice my opinions and we've recently getting the award for the local hero has given me some media time, and I feel not for me. It's if I can help society as a whole with half an hour the other day on news talks, it'd be it was good because I could talk about, uh, my passion for Zia and the plants, their native plants. And then another sector [01:33:00] was on the marriage equality bill. And here was a chance to voice how I feel. And, uh, in the third part, they talked about our garden. But these were things that I have a passion for, and hopefully that it did have some effect. I've just remembered that I was I read an article which mentioned me as a long term activist, and I read that with some surprise. [01:33:30] Um, this is Don, and, um, I think I'd be inclined to use the term advocate more. I need to be riled up a bit to get off my butt and do something, and, um, yeah, OK, that's good. I Not that I would use either but never mind. [01:34:00] And you're the advocate. I'm the activist, but you're both very visible. And I'm wondering how how has that been, like for you? Both individually and as a couple. So yeah, it It's fun. It's It's interesting. I mean, we get quite a lot of joshing about it. You know, media, queens are coming along here, you know, in the paper again. Even sort of, uh, Emma's neighbour yesterday. Sort of having you on about being in the paper, but [01:34:30] the the local hero business, you know? So I had to remind her about the power behind the throne and all that sort of jazz, but, um, the, um it has been fun. It's been worthwhile. And, um, very largely enjoyable, Because during that civil union campaign, you know, we were very public. We had, um sorry. We should have said, shouldn't we? Um They had no abuse. People were so supportive. [01:35:00] Um, Cathy la did wonders. For example, we went the day we got our licence. Um, um a friend of ours organised a table at the father. There were eight of us, and, um, then we applied for the licence. That right? And, um, it was, um we got to It was a big round table of pink flowers in the middle, and I went up to the person who was running the place and said, Look, you [01:35:30] know, let me have the tab. I She said, No, this is on us. I mean, that sort of thing happened all the time and we came out. We crossed the road to more Wilson's and a couple of guys in suits on their way to work or whatever. I shook your head. Go for it. You guys didn't know them at all. So it's pretty good, isn't it? Yeah, well, I think so. Uh, the guy who was on there, [01:36:00] not advertising standard broadcasting standards authority. Somebody complained that a programme of one sort or another, I don't know, Sunday or 20 20 or whatever it was, they give more time to us given to the opposition. And, you know, he said, I've seen you so many times when you do come down in favour of your but it's Yeah, I. I don't know. I'd hate to feel that I've sort of got on to a bandwagon and think that I've got the [01:36:30] answers. Um, I help you, but it does. You know, it does give a chance. Uh, we cannot buy that time. We could not buy the advertising and it does give a chance. I feel as I've said so often, that society as a whole will benefit. Another generation will benefit by what we're doing and not [01:37:00] only for gay rights but also the environment. If you show us how ordinary gay people are, that's good I, I think with the award and the, um because I've stressed more of the environment what I've done for that than they have for gay rights. But I correct them on that and make sure that they're both equal. And it it's just that, um I have that passion and it's just wonderful to be able to know that there [01:37:30] is someone taking note and someone's interested also. Yeah, well, I hope they're interested. Probably switch the radio off for the summer again. I just put on a note here that you've won local the local hero award. Yes, and you're heading up to Auckland. What? Next week? Yes, And what's it for that as a finalist and the local that over 700 nominees nominees [01:38:00] over 700 nominees and so to be selected in the final 10 out of New Zealand. I think it's quite something not for me. But the fact is that again we've got that visibility. A gay person, an open gay man, is recognised for not only gay rights but also for good work done within the community. The guy who compared the, uh, [01:38:30] gala opening the Pride Festival, the young New Zealander of the year from last year. That's the man. Yeah, so there's a There's several categories local hero, community hero, young person, senior person and new Zealander of the Year. And this is in the local hero category. Yeah, which is good. He was nominated also for the senior, but we found that that Ian Grant and Vicar are also in [01:39:00] the senior. So we're quite glad he didn't get that they were nominated to the thing. I don't think I think he's probably been edged out. Looking back at your relationship and the time you've had together, can you tell me some of your maybe, um, happiest moments? Oh, just so many. Some of our trips overseas have just been Yeah. [01:39:30] I mean, that one trip we went to Tanya's wedding in Italy. I mean, that was just incredible. From a wedding in Italy, up to the lake of the Italy, onto the, um, we stayed at honey on what we call the then we rushing over to for a cycle trip. I mean, we just be invited to by Vivan. How would you like to spend some time in [01:40:00] Wow that that was fabulous. But he got free accommodation and and then also suddenly finding that my daughter turned up there with their boyfriend. But the hilarious time we've had at dinner parties and and John's daughter's place and and also one of the joys is minding our grandchildren. They are delightful to kids. They get dropped off here because Emma is a journalist and she rings [01:40:30] up. I have to get to work. Can I drop the kids off at seven? You feed them and take them to school and we wait on them. They sit there and they're so polite and and I walk in, which is really good, and I had to pick them up. Remember, the kids said, Where's the car? And I said, You walk no car. I'm a cruel stepfather. No, no, no. Hold her hand. Did you cross the road? Oh, yes, yes. I said to [01:41:00] Ruby and Luke, I said, Now hold my hand. We'll all hold hand as we cross the road and little ruby looks at me and she says, Do you hold John's head when you cross the road? That's very yeah. She's also done another gem. Sorry. Grandchildren are but, uh, superfluous to this conversation. But we met someone who acts as a a supplementary teacher. He said, I know your granddaughter at school. Oh, yes. He said I said to her, [01:41:30] Your mummy's famous, isn't she? You know, Mummy being a TV journalist on TV three. Um, and Ruby? Yes, but not as not as famous as Popper. Oh, what's Papa famous for? Gay rights? She said no. At the age of eight. I think that's wonderful. Yeah, just a matter of fact. Yeah, so yeah, but what about things like, um, holding hands? I mean, it seems such a simple thing. And such a just an obvious [01:42:00] thing that out in public I mean, is that something that you you feel comfortable? I? I have to say I do movies. Oh, we do it at the movies, and we did it in. Yeah, OK, but, um, there's a general run of thing. I'm not comfortable. I don't feel that society seems to accept it. We had we're carrying sort of, uh, rainbow flags, and that was a long time ago, but, [01:42:30] um, yeah, so I was going past the Metro pub, came the rainbow Flags. Next thing we hear about but then nothing like doing homosexual reform, which had a rock put through my car through my windscreen. Yeah, spat on. And we did have the house stone. A couple of solar panels broke. Yeah. So, um, but you don't get that now, But you do get more bashings in [01:43:00] road, which is a worry, because there have been several recently. Mhm. So there we are. We're making progress, I think, by and large. What about, um, think about other kinds of moments? What about saddest moments? A double D? I written it down here on this question list. Um, [01:43:30] we have to explore that I think of your mom was always one of those I remember particularly a neighbour. Louis. We had, um, memorial service here, complete with the ashes of a woman who had been a essentially a refugee from [01:44:00] Czechoslovakia and Vienna. And, um, she gone to the States to catch up with her son and couldn't stay in the States because there was no transferable pension and so on and so forth. And she came back here and she sort of tried to find various places to to stay because she's her home had been sold. We couldn't put her up because we were looking after Dizzy's mum at that time. But anyway, later on, we were asked by the son to hold some sort of memorial service, which we [01:44:30] did, and we got some information and various people came down. But some of the people who came down were elderly. Yeah, they they were, um, Jewish refugees, still with the tattoo marks on their arms. And it was very moving when they started speaking about Louisa, who was a lovely, very, very elegant woman. Very, very elegant. And, [01:45:00] uh, I still remember going to her home in the late 19 fifties and having via schnitz or something you never knew even existed in New Zealand. And she had this past it all about of what she'd done shed as a Catholic family, but she married a Jew, and so they had to flee. Her brother, who helped, who was a Catholic priest, was beheaded [01:45:30] by the Nazis one month before was declared because he knew too much and she went through all this when she came back to New Zealand when she refused to stay in the States because she would have bankrupted the family and they wanted to stay. They came back and forth, back and forth, and that's why we ended up holding the funeral because the son, Chris said. We've spent so much going back and forth making sure Mum's all right. The only thing we can do now is if you record [01:46:00] a memorial service and then we'll do the same in the States and show the video. So we did that. But it was very, very, very moving. Just to think, you know, the horrors of what happens when people seem to think they are so bloody right that Jewish people are not humans. There's something to be derided to, to treat [01:46:30] worse than what you treat an animal, and and these memories came back with Louisa and it was just so sad to to incredibly hear her relate. Uh, the horrors of war and these people who came for a funeral were survivors from refugee camps. And, uh, yeah, so it was very moving. It was very moving. Hearing about her life and, [01:47:00] uh, scattering. Yeah, we've done some. We've had that sort of we had also a naming. We had a grandchild sort of named here. So we had the sort of the baptism, as it were, and and we had the match and we had a a gay lesbian wedding here as a gay man marrying a lesbian. It was all very rushed [01:47:30] and hilarious. I mean, the bribe was too tonic, to say the least. The marriage act going to get passed is very important because this was a way she could stay with her partner in New Zealand. And she wanted one of us to marry her. And we said, No, no, we are a couple we don't want to. But we had a friend staying here and he said I will, and he volunteered. And so [01:48:00] we had this wedding going and everything we see that would go wrong seemed to go wrong. We got a celebrant and they organised that. They all did. They did. Organise um yeah, we we organised it. I made a cake. I did. And did all the trim the bride groom was I macular? Yeah, but he was He was so disorganised. Neighbours came [01:48:30] in and they dressed up for the occasion. And Oh, yes, we had one neighbour came in with a beautiful white hat on because the celebrant didn't know what we're up to and she came. But what happened is the rather butch bride came down the drive and, uh, she brought with her a lot of carnations. Some friend of hers grew carnations and I said, Well, look, bring them along and I'll make you a bouquet. I've done florry and I could make a nice bouquet And I said, Look, show me what you'll be wearing for the wedding and I'll pick up something to match. [01:49:00] So she showed me this bit of cloth of a bit of material. She pulled out of some garment out of her bag and it was all in blue, pink and white or something. Rather and I picked out these carnations. I got some training variated I look down. I made it very feminine for her to hold. But what? It turned out she went to a spare bedroom to change. She came out still with a corduroy trousers on and a blaze. [01:49:30] Meanwhile, carrying this beautiful trailing. I was washing glasses or something downstairs and somebody said, Oh, the celebrant wants to see you. Fair? What? See me? Why? Ok, so when the woman was very, very nice woman. And so Ok, now you're the owner of this house. I thought I'm not the owner of this fucking house. I wasn't at that time. I still have my house. I can't at this stage. I can't say anything, [01:50:00] can I? You know so, right? Yes, I'm the owner of this house. So I lied and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But, you know, this two tonic bride had assumed things, not told anybody anything. So we went ahead and we had to play this game that it was my house because the celebrate was very sad that there was no poetry. There was no nothing. You know, um, you know these photos on the oh, that's that's quite show. And, [01:50:30] um and she said I want some poetry. I want some poetry. And they said there's some brown on the book. Oh, thank you for reminding me, Da. You know, we had to play this and it got worse and worse. He got the giggle. Yeah, I started laughing because when she started saying something about I can't remember. But the wording I thought, Oh, gosh, you know, and because I had to get [01:51:00] a kiss. The bride, I mean, kiss the bride, But I could look on the face of the of the groom. It was nothing. He doesn't want to kiss her, but Yeah, we found out it was a celebrant's birthday, so we sort of converted it fairly rapidly to a sort of birthday party. So it became a birthday cake, and we used to have, but I will give confidence to the bride because she had [01:51:30] a, um one of those quick cameras on to push out a photo straight away. Polaroid? Yeah, and she sent us some photos the next day and I said we were witnesses, so we saw it was difficult to see. There's a picture of both of us at the table, and there's a lovely woman who was coming clean for us occasionally. And she came and saw her and she said, You bug her. She went and got married and didn't invite me. [01:52:00] But I do remember John had made that cake and wonderful joy did of decorating it. It was really, really good. It almost looked like a hat with a ribbon around it. And it was a lovely looking wedding cake, and it was nearly whipped off by the groom. He was going to take it. I said, no, you wedding cake. It stays in the house, and we don't know quite what happened to them. But, um, so this house [01:52:30] has seen go to go to and some good parties because we have seen downstairs a nice big lounge and that we've had a Yankee Doodle do. We've had a closet opening party opened by the absolutely fabulous fabulous patch. And I have danced on that theme up there, By the way. Hm. What's it like growing older together? Are we Are we old? I [01:53:00] have No, I have no idea. I'm serious because it's it's not a concept that I get a hold of. Fortunately, we're just going together. We grow together and we keep good health, and you sort of don't look on yourself as being on the other People probably do, right? So I guess you don't look at very long on the earth and make the best of it. And hopefully we do keep good health for a little while. Yeah, I'd like [01:53:30] to. Still, I don't know if I can keep up the pace I'm doing at the moment. But as I said earlier, I don't get up hills quite as easily. I can't get to the top of the coco, but I do do organise a restoration group up here of about 50 people, plus guiding at land. Plus what I can do for gay rights, plus, uh, our garden and also a bit of painting Who does all the stuff inside the house and John's good [01:54:00] cook. I tell you what, I. I couldn't I really could not do those things if it went through John, there's no way could I? Well, that's the thing for the track that I organised every month. But we don't do. I write it out and I do the research because I always like to put into it um, one fauna and a couple of flora just to keep people's interest in their forum fauna. [01:54:30] And it takes a little bit just to get something like that written up and what we've done. The last working bee, when the next working bee is et cetera, and this goes out, not only I found out, but I send a copy to the Teric Working Group as well, and that sends out to all their members. And then, of course, it's John who edit it and and, uh, type it all up. And then we do that once a month. So all that does, Yeah, it's all time consuming. It's interesting, you know, people say, [01:55:00] Who does the cooking or or who is the wife who plays the? But it it happened because I was retired when I moved in here. This was at work. It was fairly logical, cooked a meal when he came home, so it sort of stayed that way. But Des is a very good cook. Yeah, I'm not writing that down. Johnny is a good cook. I like eating his food. What's it like growing old together [01:55:30] down there? Retirement home. A funny man retirement home. What we have said we did. We? We have thought, if this property does get too much to do, we don't mind the idea of apartment living downtown provided there's an out a private outdoor space, which is quite a big. We do [01:56:00] like going out, and the joy of this house is the privacy. And I think that's one requirement. And I've almost changed a lot of my views on gardening and gardeners being by myself that we not always very environmentally friendly. More people that can be encouraged to live in apartments well designed with an outdoor spot that's private so they can enjoy outdoor well insulated so [01:56:30] sound you're not getting other sound, and it's going to reduce the amount of energy we need for heating. Uh, we don't have to walk so far, and those interested in doing gardening you have a community garden, fruit, vegetables or you do restoration work in our hills of Wellington, especially in Wellington. It's great of getting back that wonderful Bush, which should be part of our environment. So there we are. That's the way I look at things now. So, um, I don't fear going [01:57:00] to live in an apartment a retirement home? I don't know. I might meet your brother. Come on. His brother's gone one. Yeah, that'd be interesting. We could really stir things up, couldn't we? Well, I like the ideas of the two guys. We met a couple of retired teachers in California who in Ross, which is something like 10,000 people over the age of 55. They set up a great group here. It worked very well. Unfortunately, Paul has just died, [01:57:30] but, um amazing. Amazing that. But it's it's isolating yourself from the community at large. And it's not a young people, I think need to see someone who can't walk so well or do something so big. Get an idea about differences, and and I don't think it's a healthy thing. But again, there are people who just can't cope, and it's good that they have that assistance. [01:58:00] What's keeping, uh, beaver moun up there? Oh, I see the grandkids come in and they used to sort of throw the kids toys down away from that a little bit of beaver into the conversation. So you're referring to up your staircase. You've got the little kind of toys and you've got a Beaver Mount from Canada from [01:58:30] the game. Are you collecting these from from whenever you go overseas or most of them by visiting bears? The kids are going out of going up those stairs and whacking them all down, which they seem to delight in doing. But, um, I tried to encourage them. I did buy this from, and you can play that Just encouraging to know [01:59:00] a bit about how and the, um the the the half naked Native American Indian. Where where is he from? Uh, Auckland, I think. The Canada. We bought em. Yeah, actually, Ruby, our eight year old granddaughter, said to her mother, at last, an appropriate calendar. A lovely word for the previous calendar has been naked men. And the previous one that had naked meme of hard cocks, [01:59:30] which the little boy looked at with his father and father, said Those men are funny, aren't they? And he said, yes, they are funny. Oh, so, um, we we're doing very well. Uh, just one last question. And that is, um, you you were speaking about, um, young people seeing older people before, and and so they get a sense of the diversity in community, and I'm wondering, what kind of advice would you give to young people? If [02:00:00] you had a chance to say to young people nowadays you know some life lessons or some advice? Very simple, really. Don't be afraid of being yourself. Do stand up to bullying. I get very worried about the level of bullying in our schools. Don't let yourself be bullied. I'm sure there is help around either from counsellors or from parents. And, um, with a bit of luck, you'll find that society is getting a bit easier for you if you see that somebody can [02:00:30] have a life partner of the same gender as yourself. And it's recognised and accepted in a matter of fact, in society, which is what it should be, just a matter of fact. But I go along with that. Is that just find out who you are? Accept who you are except what you are your sexual orientation. It might be or your capabilities or what you're interested in, and follow [02:01:00] those interests and question authority. Don't just accept, because someone says such and such just question and just find more. Find out a little bit more about living life and also enjoy. Enjoy it. Have fun, enjoy life just to remember, but not at the expense of someone else. And when I think your philosophy or [02:01:30] thinking does start causing suffering of another human being, and to me, that's evil. So don't become evil. Just staying good and enjoy life, Yeah.

IRN: 1104
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/auckland_pride_parade_2013.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004228
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089522
TITLE: Auckland Pride Parade (2013)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Briar Bentley; Cameron Law; Evotia Tamua; Jackie Russell-Green; Joe Blackmore; Jonathan Smith; Kevin Baker; Len Brown; Miriam Saphira; Prue Hyman; Sarah Boocock; Shaughan Woodcock; Sophie Jayawardene; Trevor Hynes
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2000s; 2010s; Act Up; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland Gay Bowling Organisation (AGBO); Auckland Pride Festival; Auckland War Memorial Museum; Big Gay Out (Auckland); Body Positive; Briar Bentley; Caluzzi Bar and Cabaret (Auckland); Cameron Law; Campaign for Marriage Equality; Charlotte Museum; Evotia Tamua; Gay Wakeboarding Association NZ; HIV / AIDS; HIV stigma; Hero (Auckland); Jackie Russell-Green; Joe Blackmore; Jonathan Smith; Karangahape Road; Keith Haring; Kevin Baker; Len Brown; Louisa Wall; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Miriam Saphira; New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF); New Zealand Herald; OUTLine NZ; Out in the Square (Wellington); Ponsonby; Ponsonby Community Centre; Pride parade; Pride parade (Auckland); Prue Hyman; Rainbow Youth; Sarah Boocock; Shaughan Woodcock; Sky Tower (Auckland); Sophie Jayawardene; Trevor Hynes; UniQ (Auckland); Waiheke Island Rainbow Coalition; Whanganui; Whangarei; Women's Movement; bear; civil unions; community; dance; drag; education; family; gay; hoop dancer; isolation; lesbian; marching boys; marriage equality; navy; parade; pride; sport; stigma; trans; transgender; unashamed; visibility; volunteer; whānau; women; youth; youth group
DATE: 16 February 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Ponsonby, Ponsonby, Auckland
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Why do you think it's important to have parades like this? Oh, well, um, I think it's still, um, wonderfully powerful to, um, young people who are, uh, possibly coming out and sort of coming to grips with their sexuality. I still remember the first gay pride event that I went to. And, uh, sorry. It was, you know, a very [00:00:30] moving experience just to sort of have that real assurance that I'm not alone. Alright, everyone. So what we're gonna do is just remind ourselves of the steps that we did last time. So can you all pretend you're holding your flag or whatever? So we're gonna step to the right first. So we go right tap left tap, right, Tap left. Then you've [00:01:00] got your eight walks in a circle to your right. So you go. 123. That's for him. 5678. That's it. How amazing is this? Imagine this going through. Four massive speakers down Ponsonby Road sending shivers atmosphere. Five months. Work is now worth them when you see those. Plus, imagine that truck [00:01:30] in the middle. A huge, big traffic controlled truck with all the lights flashing and the mirror. What do you get the leader? The stick boy. What do you call him? Stick boy? I'm pretty sure it was not stick at the front of the big book. Oh, like the leader of the, um, the tattoo. I don't know what they're called round in a circle. [00:02:00] Yeah, here it is. This is cool. It's funny, because this reminds me of my high school. They don't have flags yet. No, the red and the orange. But we used to have ceremonies like this with all of the colours, Um, for the sacred heart bar in college, at our masses, we would have the big banners like that unfurled. Yeah, I was hoping that it was something to do with because I know there's going to be a pride parade, which I was hoping was going to be, like, the hero festival [00:02:30] coming back because I remember it. And I've read articles about there being a pride parade. Um, and I was hoping that we were going to get to see a practise. I do know a little something was going on. No, I had no idea, because we Yeah, we sit down here all of the time and this is the most exciting thing we've seen in 25 years. So what do you remember of hero? I remember that my big brother, um, had to do community service, and one of his community service jobs was helping [00:03:00] build the A float for the hero parade. When I was, I must have been about 10 or 11, and I'm going along to see it because we were going to see his float. And I just loved it so much. I was like, This is the coolest thing I've ever seen. It's in the daytime and everyone can come. It's so exciting. I. I remember it because I marched in it twice with no shirt on, and I was very happy to do that. Did you feel proud? I really did. And I just loved it. And it was all a big surprise for me because I'm from [00:03:30] so to come to Central Auckland and see everybody embrace something like this. It was a good feeling. Yeah, a really good feeling. It's just cool to have something also which isn't sponsored by, you know, like some kind of parade or festival which isn't a market for purchasing something, you know, Santa Parade, which is all this and this, and it's like this is an actual festival. This is just people marching for people do, and that's really rare. It's something that's more special than a market day. [00:04:00] How are the rehearsals going? Oh, really? Well, this is actually only the second rehearsal with this group, Um, that they all worked really, really hard last week. And, um, you know, there's a mixture of people because some people have done dancing before and and some of them were actually involved with me with Queen of the whole universe. Um, so we had lots of fun, but they had been exposed to quite a bit of dancing with that, Um, and some of the people who are involved this time haven't danced before, so it's a mixed group, but they're all working [00:04:30] brilliantly, so it's great dancing on stage and dancing down a road must be quite different. Yes, yes, it's a It's a totally different vibe, definitely. And so they've got to have quite an awareness that they've got audience from every aspect. So the people at the side behind and front and and it's a different because they've got these huge props with the flags and sales and things. It's a different feel completely. How does it all your choreography? Um, it needs to be kept more simple, because this time [00:05:00] it's not actually about the choreography. It's more about the, um, community. It's about the parade itself, Um, and also, um, you know, it's just it's It's for a different reason. So you know, means that the choreography is kept very simple, and it's about the overall effect. So as people are looking and the parade is coming towards them, it needs to be very visual. As you can see all the colours, some are single colours, some are rainbow flags [00:05:30] and some are rainbow ribbons. And they're going to be. The ribbons are going to be ceremonially cut because it is the lead float by our dignitaries, our politicians and sit and dignitaries and celebrities at the beginning of the parade, and that will be the sort of the the opening piece. And then this group are going to lead the whole parade down road. There's a big truck in the middle, and there's also incredibly long streamers coming off the back of big, wide [00:06:00] stream of ribbons. coming off the back of that truck, and it's just all going to be some colour and movement. And this is just one of the spectacular floats. Yeah, lots of others. You know, there's 40 odd floats. Uh, my name is Shelley, and I just did it because just because I support it all and just wanted to be a part of it as well, I'm mine the same as my twin. I just support it really well, so I thought that was a good chance to get involved and help out. And I'm Anna. And, like, [00:06:30] I've got a crew here that, um, sort of egged me long to come, but, um, I remember being part of the hero festival before Flynn was born. And so he was. That was over 15 years ago. Do you remember walking down Queen Street dressed only in like a small toga cloth? Nothing else on at all. And it was such it was such a neat night. And you really sort of there's nothing better than sort of feeling like you're You're overwhelming everybody else because it's such a minority group. It's really neat to have so much family around and and and all the other support. Because, of course, you know, we've got a straight [00:07:00] straight far now and families coming, too. Um, but it's a lot of fun. Lot of fun and a little bit of exercise And a bit of silliness, too. And you hang out with the kids. I'm Tom, not Flynn. And, um, yeah. No, I, um And I am Anna's step son. And I am here because, um, she took me into it and thought it would be fun. Yeah. Four [00:07:30] mothers. 5455. Um, I'm Alex. Um, Tom's my best friend. Um, I've never been to a parade or anything. I thought it would be really cool to do something like this. And I. I love to support, um, this kind of thing, and it seems like a good lot of fun. So, yeah, I think it would be a huge buzz. I think it'd be quite exhilarating. Lots of adrenaline and really pumped up. And, yeah, be fun. Yeah, I agree. I reckon it's gonna be like an amazing experience just to see everyone, and hopefully everyone [00:08:00] will join in and have a little dance while we're walking down. I'll just be scared and happy and just proud of myself. Here we are. Well, we're here for the final, um, organisational crew meeting just at the beginning of the, um, few days out from the Pride parade down road at the pon Community Centre. Jules and I and, um, we're we're looking forward to this parade. It's been 12 years since we've had one in Auckland, and we think we're [00:08:30] ready. And also, the larger LGBT community is ready to see this and have it back on the public agenda. We've got three sleeps to go. It's so exciting. Can't wait. Hi, mys Karen. And the reason I'm here is actually to get back into the community that I lost so a a long time ago. So, you know, I was kind of part of the the women's movement in Auckland when you know, in this what eighties? Early eighties. And I kind of, you know, got married. [00:09:00] I suppose you could say and and went away somewhere else. And now it's time for me to come back to the community and start giving back to Yeah, Come back to where I was So tonight. What are you training for? Um, I'm being a marshal, I think, um, stopping people not doing things that they're not meant to. But, you know, I'm maybe not a good choice for that. So But I'll be having fun on the day as well, so yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Have you done a pride parade before? No, I haven't. Um, I've been in the crowd. Uh, but I haven't participated in the [00:09:30] kind of whole parade, you know? So, yeah, it's a first for me. Yeah. Hi. I'm Diane. Um, I'm going to be a standing marshal. Um, the rest of my family is all on the outline float. So we've helped build that. And so the kids and my partner are going with the float, and I thought, Oh, well, I'll go and help somewhere else. They've got enough. Why is pride important? I think the gay community has got a bit lost and invisible, um, the last few years, and I think it's about time we put ourselves back out there and stood [00:10:00] up and waved the flag and said, Hey, don't forget us. We are actually still here, and everything's still relevant. Yeah. Um, I'm James. This would be my first pride. Um, I'm actually new to Auckland City, so I thought it was my time to shine my time to get out there and see what it's all about. Um, So as as a young person, um, how important is to be? Is it to be, you know, kind of out there visible? I think it's incredibly important. [00:10:30] And at the moment, I feel there's a lot of change going on coming back after so long, we've got a pop song. That's number one on the chart, that is, you know, pro gay, which is really, really cool. So I think 2012 is gonna be 2013. I should say it's gonna be a really good year. Hey, I'm Sean, and this is my first pride as well. I'm volunteering as a standing marshal because I just want to really get involved in the community. I come from a country where homosexuality is frowned upon, [00:11:00] and obviously it is against the law as such. So it's just a great opportunity to kind of get involved and contribute as well as have fun. I volunteered because, um, I think it's great that we're having another parade and it's got to be well organised. And I think the more volunteers, the better. Have you been in pride parades before? I haven't. But my partner, Bobby, has she was once a indoor bowling pin. [00:11:30] And they because they they have the, uh A which is the Auckland gay bowling. Um, and she was very much involved in that. And was it? And Tony Quale made all these amazing outfits of of tin bowling pins, and they all had to dress in that. And then they had to sort of walk along and then all fall over and roll over and stand up again. They couldn't get up off the ground because it was hilarious. So, no, you know, I haven't been involved, but she has, [00:12:00] Um So my name is Barbara. I'm currently studying at a ET and I. I received an email from the A team in a UT, asking for help for the parade. So I jumped in and told them that I would be glad to help for the parade. I've never done the parade before. It's the first time that I'll be participating, but, um, I'm gay myself. And, uh, I just trying to meet other people. And I guess [00:12:30] I'm very excited about the idea of working at the parade and I can't wait to see what's going to happen. What will you be volunteering for? What? What are you going to be doing on the day? I'll be I'll be asked to play the role of Marshall, so we'll be helping for the traffic during the parade. But I think a lot of people will come because they are curious as well. Maybe even people who are not gay, because either they they accept gay people or [00:13:00] they want to see what it's like to be in this community. And, yeah, I guess a lot of excitement and fun to plan ahead. OK, so tonight we're interviewing, viewing Daniel and Trevor. Daniel, what are your expectations of the parade? Um, I expect it to be an entertaining afternoon, um, fun filled and safe as well. I'd like to think it's going to be extravaganza, and I think it's going [00:13:30] to be an awesome time for everybody to see this coming back into the community. And, um, yeah, it's just going to be an awesome day any, um, anything in particular that you're desperate to see the marching boys. Yeah, the marching boys. Trevor, tell me why you're excited to see the marching boys. Oh, well, I, I just think there's been a lot of work going into what they're going to be doing, and, you know, they've got to get a a fair share of, um, you know, the applause and everything like that. But, [00:14:00] you know, we we were really pleased to be able to vet them and to be able to, um, just guide them, um, as we were when we were marching boys. Exactly. So we're in the final countdown of the of the lead up to the parade. That was my line. Well, I've taken it now because I'm the interviewer. All right, sit down and just answer the question. So in the final lead up to the parade, any advice that you'd give to the marching boys to the marching boys enjoy [00:14:30] themselves, flaunt it and, uh, just yeah, just have a good time. Basically. So if you could just, um, say your name and tell me about the float that you're with. Uh, well, I'm with the float for body positive and part of the reason I won't give you my name is simply because we're also going to make a point with our float that it is still a threat. And the fear in society of identity [00:15:00] is a challenge for people living with HIV in this age, Even this year, we saw a case in where a young child was kicked out of school. And not only that, there was a lot of ignorance and fear. So we're showing that it's still unsafe and plus, at the same time, doing a little homage to some of the early activists [00:15:30] and HIV AIDS in the eighties. Can you describe what the float looks like? Um, I think Keith Herring, if you don't know Keith Haring. He was one of the early activists with um, a group called Act Up, but he was also a very famous street artist in the eighties, part of the Warhol crowd he's very easily identifiable from, and his paintings go for millions now. But he was also did some of the very [00:16:00] early posters and and that sort of thing. So we're borrowing from him. My name is Sophie Wooden. Um, my group is called, so Journey of the Lost soul. Um, I am an advocate for recovery for HIV A. I DS, um, people because I see myself recovery, and I'm out there to say it's wonderful to be out instead of being shamed. Um, and the more people that have been seeing us in in town [00:16:30] and, you know, talking to us and say, Wow, you can talk about it So we encouraging people not to be ashamed and be who they are and being free in the parade itself. What will you be doing? We are going to be with a bunch of young girls and young boys. The reason for that is because I mean in promoting, uh, the next generation, it's free. Uh, so as an older person, So we are gonna be jumping up and down and just show how wonderful life is. It's a [00:17:00] a parade for everybody, for everyone from every background. And because he said, pride parade, I relate to that. It's about being proud of who you are, regardless, and that's what we present. Hello? Uh, my name is Joe Blackmore. My partner is, um, a retired naval officer. He and we're going to be marching with the New Zealand defence force in the Pride parade. Um, the the [00:17:30] injured de F will be marching in uniform as sanctioned was all sanctioned by chief of defence. Is this the first time that the defence force has actually kind of marched on something like this? Yes, it is. It's actually, um, the first time the the the first appearance in public at a gay event was last week at the um in fact, no, they did out in the square as well. They did, and they did last week for big gay out. And now this is the first marching event where they're [00:18:00] going to be in a parade for those previous events. How were they received that was received? Very well. Um, everybody, um, very positive comments from all members of the public and from also from within defence as well they have. They've had, um, very good support from everyone. Sean, can can we just check that? We've got all the signs that go on the front of the trucks, so let's start with number one, which is the pride Leave flow. Have you got that? Number two Body [00:18:30] art showcase Uniq Rainbow Youth. I know they're coming in later dot family. 0, 800 outline. They called through before and we're about 10 minutes late. OK, that's fine. And cabaret? Ah, Charlotte museum. They've made a change. They're talking about adding the chariot to the back of their throat. But they've said that they want to attach it to the tow bar. And I know that the chariot doesn't have that fixture, [00:19:00] so we need to just do a double check, health and safety check on that. We've got drag queens, First scene, OK, The next one. This is a change. So this is the Canadian First Nation ring dancer. OK, that sounds interesting. Yeah, we saw him perform the other day at an 80th birthday party and he had 14 rings and he was playing with all of them that the day is warming up. It's overcast today on [00:19:30] parade day, Saturday, the 16th of February. And, uh, we're in Maidstone Street where all the floats are set up. And as you can see, they're looking very colourful already. Um, one of every kind. Hi, I'm I'm Brian Bentley. I run a transgender group up in and have been doing that for about 10 years, and we support, uh, transgender youth as well as older folk. We do, um, education, [00:20:00] going to schools and talk and talk to other groups as well. So that's part of what we do up in. We're down here to support the dots float. Who is going to be full of absolutely fabulous people, and I am one of the marshals that walks around the float and tries to keep law and order. And how do you do that? I haven't the faintest idea. I gave up on law and order quite a long time ago. [00:20:30] The marshals are supposed to be the the this, the people maintaining order. But, um, most of them are going to be dressed up in amazing costumes and stuff, and I think they're going to have a lot more fun than what a normal martial does. Is this the first parade you've you've been involved in? Now I've been involved in a couple of the other parades, and the first parade was probably my introduction to other people within the transgender society [00:21:00] back sort of 10 years ago, I thought I was the only one in the world, and it you tend to be very lonely and things like this really, um, allow you to meet other people and understand that you're not on your own. And that's a That's another part of the parade. Can you describe that first experience of, of, of, of being in a parade? What was it like? Incredibly emotional. And the Ponsonby Road was absolutely [00:21:30] jam packed with the bystanders yelling and screaming and Yahoo and everyone on the floats were having an amazing time. And I don't think I actually came down to ground level for about three days afterwards. That was just how emotional the thing was. Um, I'm Lucas, and participation here is representing Rainbow Youth for the Pride Parade. Um, I'm Derek. And yeah, I'm just representing Rainbow Youth and showing how proud I am that I'm part of this organisation. [00:22:00] Part of yeah, all the kids. Hi, I'm Daniel and I'm representing Rambo youth. It's kind of amazing walking around, seeing all the floats, seeing all like the tinsel and the balloons and stuff. It's all very colourful. It's all it's really cool. Yeah, it's it's It's definitely overwhelming. Just seeing, like all the rainbows everywhere, you can't not smile when you look around and It's just looking at the effort that people have gone into to show pride. It's quite good. Yeah, I'm Jackie Russell Green, and I'm here with the New [00:22:30] Zealand campaign for Marriage Equality. And I'm Cameron Law. Also with the campaign. Um, and our float is, uh, a giant wedding cake, Uh, which we're going to have two very brave lesbians on top of, um, travelling down the road. And we also have this, um, red Buick here with just married. And the kids are putting cans out the back of it. At the moment. We're in fact, the last parade in the float. So the very last image that people will see is the back of that magnificent convertible with two grooms in the back. Why is being a part of [00:23:00] this parade important? Um, well, our our our goal as a group is to, um, help ensure that parliament passes the marriage equality Bill Louis Louis walls, Bill. Um, and so we wanted to, um, to be here to demonstrate, um, that this this this community really values marriage equality that it really supports it, and hopefully they'll hear that from the chairs that will go up and the claps and the applause and in support of marriage equality. And we also want to, um, remind this community that actually, um, that battle is not [00:23:30] one yet. We've only had the first reading. And we need to, uh, get the, um, next two votes, uh, through and and we need some support to do that. It's also a way of saying thank you to the community for the enormous support they've given us for the campaign for marriage. Equality so far. What I mean, why is marriage equality important? I think it's the last big legislative item that's that waits for to be settled for gay people once we've got marriage equality, I think legislatively speaking, we're on an equal footing with every other member of the New Zealand community. And I guess marriage equality is important because [00:24:00] civil unions aren't enough. You know, it's a little bit like being asked to ride at the back of a bus. You might theoretically arrive at the same destination, but you're travelling in a different way, and it's got different terminology associated with it. And we think we think that New Zealand is a fundamentally fair, um, people who like to give everyone a fair go. And and that's why we think that this bill is going to pass because they'll they'll look at lesbian and gay couples and think, Yeah, what's wrong with that? Why shouldn't these two people be able to, um, commit to marriage? Um, and I? I think they'll be fine. Uh, and [00:24:30] and it's really important, um, for not just for actually for the gay and lesbian community, but for the whole community that we don't allow discrimination to continue. Well, um, this is the Waiheke Rainbow Coalition, and, um, our our float is very, um, makeshift at the last minute because our caravan, we couldn't have So our love shack is actually a a van. Um, and we got lots of people from Waiheke coming over about 50 to walk. And here's some of our lovely [00:25:00] marshals. My name is and I'm from I'm very excited to be here in the the Gay Pride March 1st one since 2002, and I look forward for it to being an annual event. Can you describe your van? Well, it's very pink. It's very colourful. It's got buzzy bees and it says Waiheke, full of fruits and nuts. It also says, um, just married, which is making reference to the [00:25:30] fact that, uh, it's not totally recognised as the word that we should use. So just married is on the back for that purpose. You you've also got some, um, banners going on. Tell me about some of those, uh, some of them relate just to, like, Wacky was so gay and gay hicky. But the one that interests me is the gay as you, which gives you GAY, which is actually where the gay started. Um, back in San Francisco in the seventies. So gay is actually not taking over a word. It's [00:26:00] It stands for good as you and which we needed to stipulate in those years. Hi. I'm and I'm a south north street coordinator. So basically, that means I'm standing at the corner of Maidstone Street and Crum Road. I'm just making sure that the floats are in the right places. I see you've also brought your your very nice looking camera with you. So you're a photographer, too? Yeah. I actually work as a freelance photographer, and, um, I decided to volunteer today and help out. And, um, and also just bring my camera and take some photographs along [00:26:30] the way when you're taking photos in a kind of pride parade situation. What? What are you looking for? Um, as I'm a documentary photographer. So this is sort of the thing that I enjoyed photographing. And it's people doing what they're doing without them really knowing that you're, um, that they're being photographed. So it's really candid, natural sort of stuff. And, um, yeah, it's just capturing little moments and snippets and time. Is this the first kind of pride parade or, you know, pride slash hero parade You've done? Actually, no. I've actually been documenting the hero parade. Um, [00:27:00] pretty much all of them, I think I've had Yeah, when I was shooting film, um, colour, transparency in black and white. So I've got some really cool old images, so it's quite nice to turn up Finally, with digital when you look at what's happening today and what was happening back then in the nineties, what are the kind of differences? Um, I think the technical aspect as far as sound systems, um, has definitely improved. Um, the is not so bulky. And, um and but the floats still look exactly the same, and [00:27:30] I think you can just do a little bit more and be a little bit, have more of a presence as far as sound and lighting is concerned. What are the most memorable things from the hero parades? Ah, I think it's, um, all the friends and families, um, standing along lined up along road, watching and cheering and just having such a good time. And in those days there were sort of people barriers, you know, protecting you from the floats. But at the same time, you could pretty much just walk straight into, like, I remember one time there was no barriers [00:28:00] and everybody was just there, just like Oh, please, just move back before your feet get run over by the cars, going past. Looking back at your images from that time, What's some of your favourite images? I have to say it's the marching boys. It's always the marching boys. They look really hot. They all toned and the little pom poms flying around, and especially with the light when the light has gone down and just picking up the pompom shining and you know some spotlights is amazing and this is quite different this year because we're in the afternoon where his hero was was an evening thing, [00:28:30] wasn't it? Yes, it was always in the evening. And that's why I had a really amazing atmosphere. Um, we used to come down with our little cousins and, um, just have a really good time. But, um, yeah, watching it in the daylight is gonna be quite different, but it's still going to have the same feel, so really, on a count of three. Ready? 321222 like, Hey, what are we in the parade? What are we in the parade for? We're trying to inspire, I guess. Um, gay people that just like to do something a bit different against the norm. And not many people think about gay [00:29:00] people. Wakeboarding. So hey, it's something new, and we're gonna have a go. And it's a good social outlet to try and kind of meet new people and find people who have some common interests rather than hanging out at all the night clubs and getting wasted every night, which is Yeah, it's really scary seeing gay men in the daytime gay man in daytime. That's a whole other world going against stereotypes. Um, that's sort of what we stand for, and that's what we're trying to get across. So what are the stereotypes? Oh, um oh, anything. I mean, I guess people [00:29:30] general public put people in boxes, and, um, that's obviously not always right. And so we're just doing What we're doing is, you know, I guess gay people don't generally, um, Wakeboard. You could say, um, people expect that, and we do. So we're just thinking that it's not just the white boarding aspect. It's many other aspects of just day to day life as a gay man or anything. I think there's also a about kind of showing a different side of gay life, not not just to, you know, the [00:30:00] heterosexual community, but also to the gay community to show them that there is, uh, another side of gay life that doesn't have to be, you know, going out and getting boos and going to nightclubs and, um, scoring every guy you see kind of thing. So it's creating, uh, awareness within the gay community as well as outside of the gay community. Can we do that chart one more time? doing that. Maybe we do the [00:30:30] association. We're still getting our roots for yourself, all right. 321. Dude who like? Yeah, well, we're in Crum Road now with a decorated truck, and we're going to have women who can't walk. Some have got bad knees and so on, and they'll be sitting on the back of the truck banging drums and shaking rattlers and [00:31:00] pom poms and things. And then we'll be walking in front of the truck with the Charlotte Museum Trust Big Banner. And then behind us will be some women walking with their flags and the chariot, the chariot that was used in the gala and was in a hero parade many 10 years or more ago. It's been resurrected, and it's going to go down road with all the glam and glitter that that it has a golden chariot with a golden chariot in the name of [00:31:30] Sao. I think this time, rather than the boys. My name is Miss Taro Patch, and we are here to enjoy free love, fabulous and everything that is gay. Can you describe the atmosphere today? Oh, stunning. I think it's a long time coming. I mean, especially for the people who are new to the scene. Um, it is It is about owning who you are walking the walk, and this is walking the walk. I think it's really electric. I was here, like, 11 years ago. It's so overdue. [00:32:00] Hallelujah! Libra flag. I love it. Thank you, guys. We got sugar free. It's the sugar free with stevia at the plan. [00:32:30] And can you describe your Oh, OK, I'm summer Summer clearance. This is Lola. Auntie Lola, Bang away. We've got little summer frocks here that are in three tone matching way colours. Fabulous underskirts A little bit of sequin, A little bit of glitter, A bit of glam. Lola, honey. Yes, darling? Lola, Bang away Drag queen clearly, [00:33:00] Sweetness. Isn't this amazing? This is fabulous. Well, 43. But let's talk about it. This is amazing. We are so privileged to have, um, her pride to the parade back. And to have all this fabulous and all this gorgeousness and all this gayness. Did you see the, um, the museum and sky tower Absolutely fabulous. Love it. Love it. Thank you. Very, very happy to be here After 11 years, [00:33:30] it's been an awful long time. I was only ever in one parade before, and that was the wet one. Torrential rain through the parade. We looked like drown rats by the rest. By the end of it, it wasn't no, it wasn't ready. So this is going to be such a treat. And there's some such a buzz here. Everyone's having such a good time ever so pleased ever so happy. Why do you think these kind of parades are important? Well, I think they remain important for visibility reasons, and I think they also remain important because, although, you [00:34:00] know, the situation for lesbians and gay men has improved out of sight over the last years, Uh, it is a complete mistake to pretend that all the problems are solved. And I've said there's been a gay, but there is also. There's also the transgender and sex issues and so on and, um, differences by ethnicity, the whole whole range of things. But particularly, I think, for young young kids coming out, the safety in schools, campaigns, the anti bullying campaigns, I think all those are really important and it's important to keep giving the messages [00:34:30] that there is still work to do and, um, that there should be, uh, tolerance, equality. And, of course, not just on sexual orientation. I liked my politics. Links it with all the other oppressions in the world. Uh, race, colonialism, the whole, the whole thing. And there's still gender issues, too, of course. Yeah. So I think it matters that that it still happens and people can have should be having fun, too. But I think it has a serious side. Um, my name is Dave. Um, we're [00:35:00] Ben New Zealand. So we're a sort of group of like minded hairy, maybe slightly older guys that just sort of have a like mind. And we get out and do things. Together we go, we have bowling nights, we have bar nights. We, um just before Christmas, we did the crossing. So we we're sort of pretty active for a bunch of guys. I will, um the, uh, bear New Zealand's been running bear pride. Now, for the fourth year this year, [00:35:30] it's part of pride itself. We're running 13 events, so it's quite busy. Uh, last night was Mr Erge Bar. Um, the winner is going over to Melbourne to the Mister Southern Hibernation Bear contest. And if they win, they'll go to an international, um, competition. Uh, we've had a very busy week. Er we've still got a few more events to go. Um, and it's really great. And we've got a lot of guys [00:36:00] from overseas. A lot of locals, people from Wellington and Christchurch up. How many people are marching today? Um, we reckon probably about 50 behind us. This is our float here. So the guy who won the Mr Bare competition last night will be in the car, and there's probably going to be about 50 of us marching behind. Why is marching in this kind of event important? I think it's it's good to sort of get show the diversity of our community. It's, you know, you could see the range of people here today. Um, [00:36:30] and it's, you know, if people see, you know, a bunch of, you know, just regular looking guys who can be out and gay and happy, it's, you know, if we can provide role models like that for younger guys, then that's a great thing. So both of us are actually native New Zealanders. Uh, both moved over here about 2. 5 years ago, we were surprised there wasn't even a pride march. Uh, it's great that after 10 years, we've actually got some form of Pride March. It's quite important to people. Uh, I don't know. When I [00:37:00] did my first Pride March, it just lifted a lot of stress off me. So I think it's very important that we have something like this. Yeah, it's just to show the rest of Auckland that that we're here. Yeah, otherwise there's a danger we could just become just invisible part of the community. But, you know, here we are. And there's thousands of us, which is great. And I think with bears, I mean, we also like you wouldn't recognise them. You're just like the everyday Joe kind of thing. [00:37:30] They wear suits. They could be a labourer. They could be a doctor. They could be a nurse. Um, and being out of pride much, we we just show that we are ordinary people. Uh, there are other parts of the community that it gets a lot of media attention, but, you know, we are a part of the community, um, the same as drag queens as leather people. Um uh, lesbians on, uh, dikes on bikes. Everyone is part of the community, and we are happy to [00:38:00] do much and show that, you know, you can be just an average man and, um, be part of the community. Hi. My name's Lauren and we're at the Auckland Pride Festival parade. It's the first time I've been. So I'm really looking forward to it. But my partner Ros was here at the last 1. 2001. Yeah, I went to a lot of, um, parades down road was absolutely gutted when they stopped [00:38:30] them in 2001. So I'm really, really wrapped that they've started again being the first parade you've been to. What, Um what? What are you anticipating? I'm anticipating lots of colour and music and costumes. I'm looking forward to seeing the drag queens. My favourite thing is going to be the motorcycles. I want to see the dikes on mics. Just all of it. Really. I want to see the bears with their golden chariot. [00:39:00] I want to see the Charlotte museum with their float, you know, And the purple, that's all gonna be purple. Yeah, Oozy bar. I'm looking forward to seeing that and hopefully, you know, getting into the carnival atmosphere, which will last after the parade as well. Everybody's going to be in really high spirits now. You've arrived actually quite early, haven't you? And you've got your chairs set up. And when when did you arrive? One o'clock. We wanted to go to the exhibition [00:39:30] because there's some exhibitions on and we wanted to get a really good seat, and we'd really like to be in the glam stand, but we can't afford it. So we're like, right next to it, As close as we could get. Just for those of you who can't see, we're not cutting the day. We're pulling it. It's done with a bow. There's no cutting today. It's gently pulled apart. Now, I'd like to introduce the, um, his worship the, uh, mayor of Auckland, Mr Lyn Brown. So [00:40:00] I just want to, uh, really put ask you to put your hands together before we, uh, pull. What is an appropriate ribbon? Yellow. We've bought the light and the sun back to this city. Uh, but, uh, I, I want to acknowledge the organisers to join. Or your team. You've done an outstanding job. Let's put our hands together for the organisers just for superb. And finally this is a historic occasion And, uh, this city in it's [00:40:30] uniting has a spirit of we can do not We can't do we too often In recent times we have been defined by what we can't or will not do Well we can and we will do the pride parade. So on behalf of you all we are here to formally launch the 2013 Pride parade in this beautiful city of Auckland. [00:41:00] It is open and we're wrong. When I saw that remembrance fight, [00:41:30] I just bowed and bowed and bowed My God! And they started singing Hallelujah for me and Oh my God! I lost it completely. Lost it. Oh, what a day! What a day! I was so scared. At 10 to 4, there was hardly anybody on the street. I was so scared then all of a sudden Look what happened. Look what happened. Unbelievable! Unbelievable. [00:42:00] Yeah, well, we're just coming up to the last float, um, for Pride parade in 2013. It's been an absolute [00:42:30] amazing five months, and today has just been phenomenal and, uh, just to be able to walk with the lead float, Uh, see the the crowd and the expressions and yeah, just absolutely amazing. So gonna make me cry. Thank you, boys. Well done. See you, guys. Thank you. Wow. Well, we've done it. [00:43:00] Oh, God, I tell you what. Now my energy is starting to go zero down anyway. Exceeded all my expectations. That was absolutely incredible. And we actually finished, what, 30 minutes early. So, um, that's a good indication for next year that we can probably add some more floats in. Um and everything was going at a good speed. So, um, brilliant. I think that was a brilliant job. I'll even pat myself on the back for this one. So I suppose it's over and out for Auckland Pride [00:43:30] Parade 2013.

IRN: 772
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/overwatch.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004227
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089521
TITLE: OverWatch
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Stuart Pearce
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Big Gay Out (Auckland); DEFGLIS (Australian Defence Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender and Intersex Information Service); HIV / AIDS; Human Rights Act (1993); New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF); Out in the Square (Wellington); OverWatch (NZ Defence Force); Pride parade (Auckland); Stuart Pearce; United Kingdom; closeted; coming out; discrimination; education; gay; human rights; military; peer support; relationships; sexuality; support
DATE: 16 February 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: OK, well, firstly, my name is, uh I'm a squad leader in the Royal New Zealand Air Force. Um, I'm also the chair of the, uh, Overwatch peer support and networking organisation. The defence force has come a long way in the last 2030 years. Um, certainly, in the years leading up to the 1993 Human Rights Act, uh, life in the defence force for gay and lesbian only gay and lesbian. Uh, um, service people was not easy. Um, we didn't just, uh, discriminate. We actively prosecuted men and women and [00:00:30] gay men and women. And essentially, if if people identified as gay or lesbian, then they were likely to serve under a reasonable amount of paranoia and fear that their career would end if their identity were disclosed. Um And so it was a particularly for some people. Certainly. It was a particularly stressful time. Do you know the number of people that were kind of discriminated against? It's It's very difficult to, um, put fingers [00:01:00] on on actual specific numbers, partly because a lot of that is hidden are protected by the Privacy Act. Um, people may be discharged because their service was considered uh, incompatible. Or that their behaviour was considered incompatible with the service. So it wouldn't necessarily specifically say this individual was was discharged because they were gay, for example. But we do know that certainly a reasonable amount of people were discharged. Um, certainly between 1986 and 1993 in some way related to their, uh, orientation. When did you join the force? [00:01:30] I transferred to the New Zealand defence force and and, uh, began serving with the Royal New Zealand Air Force in November 2006. Before that, I had previously served in the Royal Air Force in the UK and, uh, had have done since 1999. And what was the status of, um, Rainbow people in the UK defence force? Uh, changeable. Certainly. When I first signed up, uh, it was still illegal to be openly gay in the British military, and I guess, much like, [00:02:00] um, people serving in New Zealand before the the Human Rights Act. You know, we served under a a real concern that if we were found out or even suspected, then we would be investigated or potentially arrested. Um, our quarters would be searched. Our families would be interviewed, all that kind of thing. And essentially, if found guilty, we'd be discharged dishonourably, and we'd lose access to pensions and a career, and and it it was a pretty difficult time. Um, back then, um, whilst I was serving [00:02:30] in the RF, the the ban was lifted, and and and essentially, that was very much, uh, something of a non event. All of the concerns around, um, open service, undermining operational effectiveness or unit cohesion just simply didn't come. Um, gradually, more and more people began to come out of the closet. Um, and it it's been great to see how far the the British military has come in, you know, in 10, 12 years since the the ban was lifted. So that's really positive. How [00:03:00] did that affect you in the in the British forces? How? I mean, did you go in as as as a gay male, or did you kind of come out I? I was never actually at at my interview to join the RF. I was never asked if I was gay. I was asked if I was aware that homosexuality was considered incompatible with the service, which I said Yes, I was. And I was then asked if that was going to be a problem for me, and I said, No, it's not, um, at that stage, I was still, I guess, [00:03:30] coming to terms with my own identity and I'd never had a relationship with anybody. So I thought it was a pretty reasonable, um, statement to make at the time. But certainly, I think, as I became more conscious of who I was and who I wanted to be, Um then, yes, that was when the sort of the pressures began to build and and sort of the the double life began to kick in. And and I think like a lot of other people at the time, um, you know, we sort of would would try and sort of maintain two separate lives. You have the professional military life, and then you'd keep your private life preferably away from base, um, [00:04:00] sort of, you know, getting to know the gay scene and and sort of find out who we are. So how fearful were you of being discovered? Hello? It It sort of came into peaks and troughs. In a way, I think I think there were occasions when you know, realistically you're focusing on the job in hand and and, you know, issues of orientation identity sort of right at the back of your mind. Um, I think certainly having relationships with people while serving at the time was very difficult, because, uh, you know, you [00:04:30] have to meet people further away from the base. You were worried that people might see you together and and put two and two together and come up with the right answer and or simply the more you began to, I suppose, you know, explore your your identity. There was a degree of paranoid that people might be able to figure it, figure it out themselves and and, uh, and talk to the wrong people, and it all comes tumbling down. Can you talk about the, um, you you mentioned the word kind of incompatibility with with the defence force and I'm wondering, are they the same in the [00:05:00] UK as they were kind of perceived in New Zealand? And what kind of inabilities? It's It's an interesting one. Essentially, it was a bit of a catch all and I I understand that at the time it was a way for the defence force to sort of, um and and this is something which, you know, survives to this day. The certainly the New Zealand defence Force Chief, um, has the the authority to, um, discharge anybody who he believes is, um simply not whose [00:05:30] behaviour has perhaps brought the defence force into disrepute. Um, so, for you know, someone is is, um, guilty of a specific crime, then their service with the the NZTF could be considered un untenable. Um, but I think back then simply engaging in any kind of homosexual act could be considered incompatible with service. So if you were, um, having a AAA physical relationship with an individual that could be considered incompatible if you were seen walking down the street holding hands with somebody, then that could be considered [00:06:00] incompatible. Um, so a lot of it was was focusing more on behaviour and less on on identity. But those two things I think when you can look at homosexuality are race are tightly woven. And so it's, uh yeah, it was an interesting time. So in the early nineties, the the the attitude in the defence force changed. And can you tell me Why? Why was that change happening? I think within within New Zealand. There there was a a groundswell, [00:06:30] Um, of of opinion that, uh, you know, the human rights, uh, sort of issues were sort of right of coming to the fore. And I think within the defence force, I think it became clear that, um, certainly in the the months, possibly years, leading up to the 1993 act that the writing was well and truly on the wall And that, um, defence would, um, have to, uh, sort of accept sort of the the direction that society was moving in. And I think there was also a degree of of common sense. I believe within the military that a lot of the arguments [00:07:00] that people had had made about, um the risks of open service simply weren't particularly well founded And that actually, rather than treat, um, for example, rather than say, well, we can't have homosexuals because their behaviour is incompatible. Well, let's actually identify what we consider to be incompatible behaviour. Um, and similarly there there were issues certainly at the time surrounding, um, HIV aids and in the military. So we put ourselves at quite [00:07:30] significant risk from time to time and and blood transfusions. And and there was a lot of concern about how that would handle, uh, be handled. And, um, I think the way we have traditionally looked at it was, well, we can't have gays because gays have AIDS. And therefore we can't have gays in the military because there's a risk of blood, um, infection that's being passed on to straight service people. Instead, you know, they took the more pragmatic approach, which will say, Well, let's actually look at that a bit deeper. We can have perfectly capable professional trained gay service people who, and we [00:08:00] can simply put in a policy that addresses their health as opposed to their identity. And and that's essentially the the way the the the military decided to go. So was that one of the main arguments about kind of AIDS and HIV? It was an argument. Um, I think there were other, slightly more, um, the sort of the moral debate about just homosexuals in general and, um, the the the really sort of outdated arguments I suppose about how we might sort of undermine, um, unit cohesion and operation [00:08:30] effectiveness but, uh, yeah. So can you talk to me about going from the early nineties, where the Human Rights Act came in? Until now, what have been the changes in the defence force in regard to rainbow people? I think it's been, um, profoundly positive. I think you know, we're now seeing an increasing number of, uh, open rainbow people. Um, serving within the defence force in a range of, uh, ranks, um, professions and the [00:09:00] various arms of the defence, as well as our civilian staff as well. And I think that increasing visibility and and exposure to, um, gay people lesbians has really it's it's destigmatize, it's demystified something. And and, you know, people have lived on base next door to a gay couple, for example. And and, you know, they've grown to realise that we're just like anybody else. So it's It's certainly that visibility has has gradually sort of, um, eroded. A lot of the the concerns that people have got. [00:09:30] So are there now specific kind of policies in regard to having, like, same sex relationships like on base, like you're saying that people living together, the the approach that defence has taken, um, is that we have recognised relationships and we do not discriminate between same sex couples and, um, differing sex couples. So if you are in a committed relationship and you can prove that to the satisfaction of the defence force, which essentially means, you know, you've got a joint bank account, joint insurance policies, you and each other's wills, that kind of thing um then you can be, uh, entitled to exactly [00:10:00] the same benefits and entitlements that a a differing sex couple would have. So that includes, um, housing, Um, uh, access to base facilities and support from the wider, um, defence support network. So you joined the New Zealand defence Force in 2006. Did you notice any difference in how you were treated? Um, as a as a gay male between the UK force and in the New Zealand force? It was an interesting, uh, transition in a way, my partner and I, although we were out [00:10:30] to immediate friends and colleagues in the the British military, uh, my partner is a service person as well, um, as well as our neighbours and and and friends and family. We weren't really out out. If that makes sense. And when the opportunity came up to transfer to the New Zealand, uh, military, we essentially made the conscious decision that we were starting a new life in New Zealand. And, um So when we went through the interview process, which included in talking to the spouses and and families and letting them know what they were letting themselves in for by moving to New Zealand [00:11:00] Um, we made the conscious decision to do that as a as an open couple. And when we met with the the team that had come over to the UK to look at potential transfers, we were overwhelmed by the the supportive and the, uh the friendliness of the team that met us. And and that was certainly a key part in our, um, decision to to move to New Zealand. And certainly when I moved to, um uh, New Zealand and my partner followed after we sold the house in the UK. Um, I was very quickly sent overseas, and, um, it was the the support [00:11:30] that that Dave got from the defence force at the time as my my spouse, um, was overwhelming. We were really, really pleased. Did you find that you were discriminated against in any way. Not at all. Um, it's it's it's been a a very easy, um, process for us. And and however I'm I'm I'm conscious also, though, that I'm somewhat longer in the tooth, perhaps than some of my other, um, sort of younger gay of colleagues. And I think the the real advantage that we've got [00:12:00] within the defence force is that we, you know, in addition to organisations such as Overwatch, we also have a A tremendously, uh, robust, uh, harassment and discrimination. Um, a range of policies that that tackle any kind of, uh, abuses or or discriminations and and very well, so, no, I personally have never experienced it. And I'm pretty confident that we have the right checks and balances in place to deal with that and should have advised it for somebody else. So there are not things like, um, just kind of, uh um name [00:12:30] calling or I mean things being referred to as gay or Yeah, I think you know, we one of the challenges is that, you know, we we recruit from society and and, you know, we're essentially a microcosm of that society and so non inclusive language is still an issue that we're working on. Um, and and there are still challenges that we face. It's one of the reasons why we need an organisation like Overwatch. The ultimate end state is not to need to have these, uh, support groups, but so, yes, there are challenges that we face, [00:13:00] but, you know, they're being tackled. And and, uh then certainly the the high levels of the organisation take that kind of thing in incredibly seriously. So when somebody is, you know, using words like gay or fag, what are the ramifications for that? You know, how do you say, Actually, that's not OK, essentially by doing just that. And, um, you know, we one of the core principles of the defence force is courage. And and there is a degree of courage required [00:13:30] to stand up to somebody who is using that language and and tackle them on that language and and explain to them why you know, that that kind of language isn't appropriate and and that, you know, we we have equity training in all of our key, uh, training packages. So as people's careers progress and they go through various training courses. There's an equity element to that as well, and that reemphasizes the the need for inclusive language and and, you know to not want to avoid marginalising members of the defence force because of their orientation. How do, um, transgender members [00:14:00] for them Do you have transgender people? We do. And, um, they enjoy the full support of the, um, service chiefs. Uh, it's it's an interesting one and and certainly, uh, there's a lot of education I think required. Um, and I think that's education required for the gay community as well. I think there's a perception that, um, transgender people and, um, gay and lesbian people are essentially one of the same bunch. And, uh, and and we're not, you know, there there's, [00:14:30] uh, significant differences between gender identity and orientation. And gradually, as we as we understand that and and we as an organisation, we we, um, embrace our our diversity if you like. I think that's it's it's moving forward, but certainly at the moment, Um, our transgender people in defence, um are are well supported. You've mentioned the group over. What can you tell me about that and how that came about Essentially, it came about because we recognised that, Um although we had robust [00:15:00] welfare support mechanisms within defence, the one thing that perhaps we were lacking was anything specifically tailored to the needs and requirements of our, um, GL BT community. Um, there certainly wasn't a great deal of of, uh, available resources in terms of support and many of our our welfare supporters, although incredibly skilled and capable people, um, still perhaps lacked that, um, deeper understanding of the challenges that GL BT people face. Um, there's perhaps a perception that, you know, it's legal now, So [00:15:30] what else is required? Um, so we identified that that realistically, the the value of peer support and networking groups is is immense. Um, it's incredibly empowering for people. And so we set about, uh, myself and a number of colleagues working with our WELL-BEING teams in Wellington and and working towards establishing some sort of an entity. Uh, in 2011, the chief of Defence force gave approval to establish the group, and in early January, 2012, um, Overwatch was formally [00:16:00] born. Um, today, um, we've we've come quite a long way in a relatively short period of time. We've got, um, an online resource that's accessible to anybody within the defence force that provides guidance and support to individuals as well as to commanders and and, uh, uh, managers in positions of responsibility. And that can talk about anything from, um, discussion about coming out. We share our own personal stories, which is empowering, hopefully to to those who are walking [00:16:30] their own path. Um, we give or we make available resources for, um, service people who are parents of gay Children. Perhaps, um, we educate on terminology so that people understand a bit more about what the difference is between intersex and transgender and the, you know, bisexual and, um and and gay and so on. So it's it's proven to be an extremely valuable resource, and, um, it's it's it's great the level of support that we've got, and it's great the feedback that we're getting from around the defence [00:17:00] force and how it's actually helping people. How hard or easy was it to establish? Um, this this kind of group within the force, um, we had a couple of hurdles. Um, when we our our timing wasn't the best we we launched We started working on this at a time when, uh, the defence force is going through a massive restructure in terms of its its whole framework. Um, but we're very lucky to have, um, some key allies, key supporters throughout the, um the NZDF certainly within [00:17:30] our our wider well-being network. Um, Director of defence psychology is very supportive. Our principal defence chaplain is very supportive. Our director of well-being is very supportive. So having those key players supporting what we were trying to achieve was was certainly very helpful. And then ultimately, when we went to, um the very top to the chief of defence force for approval, um, you know, he he sees the the well-being and the the support of his people as his number one priority. And he recognises the Overwatch organisation [00:18:00] as as a key part in that, um and so he's been extremely supportive and, you know, we we're very pleased. Has there been any backlash from, um kind of under the kind of management level, you know, like the the kind of general force. I think there's a a level of understanding about the value of these kind of organisations. Um and some people perhaps don't quite understand, uh, the value that, [00:18:30] um, sort of networking and and peer support brings to an organisation. So, you know, we're a modern organisation like any other. And And if we look at industry best practise, many of the large organisations out there have robust networking support. Um uh, mechanisms and so I, I think, really, the the the value in what Overwatch does is is in part in educate people. Why we need this kind of mechanism. So does Overwatch take more of a kind of a proactive approach in terms of education and [00:19:00] kind of advocacy, or is it more of a kind of a peer support? You know, we will respond to what It's both we, you know, Certainly a very big part of what we do is is primarily being visible. It's, uh, being approachable for anybody who might have a challenge. And we've had instances of people throughout the defence force who have made contact with us and, uh, you know, they've read our our stories online, and they've they've, um, heard, you know, about our our backgrounds and and they've found that to be very supportive, but certainly another key part of [00:19:30] what we do is we work very closely with our well-being organisation and with command, and we feed back into them the you know, the mood across the defence force. You know, what's what kind of stories are we hearing about? Where can we focus our efforts to better support our people? And, um and that's seen as a as a valuable resource, you know, with with subject matter experts, if you like, for for commanders. So what kind of, uh, stories are you hearing? What are the challenges that people are coming to you with I? I think, really. I mean, you know, a lot of it is form [00:20:00] of, you know, young folk, maybe some not so young folk who, um, you know, they they're beginning to identify, you know, to identify as as either gay or lesbian or or whatever. And they I think they really just want to bounce a few ideas off us, in a way so, you know, you know, do I tell my sergeant first, do I tell my family first or do I You know who do I how? How you know? And And we will never tell anybody this is what you should do, but we can certainly give them the, you know, the, um, our own experience and and offer them support [00:20:30] through that process. So, um and and that from them is very valuable. But I think certainly I think one of the the really telling examples is we had a a young lad in um, the Navy who has only recently come out to his family and friends and and he's actually put his hand up to, um March in the parade today, which is pretty courageous in its own in itself. I think what was really telling was the fact that he then came back to us and said, I've actually 16 of my work. Colleagues have all sort of, you know, put their hand up and they want to march with me in in in support, and I think that it's it's [00:21:00] sharing those kind of positive stories with other people, and and that's what I think is really valid about what we do. It's it's it's giving visibility, and it's letting people know that they're not alone, that they're not the only gay in the village. If it makes sense, what about the difference between somebody coming into the force. Um, that's openly gay or out transgender lesbian et cetera. Coming into the force as a out person, as opposed to somebody coming out while they're actually in the force. I think it's an interesting one. We're certainly, um, beginning to, uh, beginning to see [00:21:30] now more openly gay or openly out people. Um, look to the defence as a as a a career option and, uh, and we've got people going through recruit training now who have joined up as as openly gay. I think it's, um I think it's it's It's a positive reflection of the way that the defence forces is presenting itself to, you know, the wider community. Now I think we're breaking down some of those outdated stereotypes that we're not a gay friendly organisation that we're, [00:22:00] you know, outdated and and somewhat stuck in the Dark ages. You know, we're a modern, forward thinking organisation, and and realistically, if you've got the right skills, if you've got the right talents, then you know and a career in defence is something you're interested in. Then we want to talk to you. How did the name Overwatch come about? um, essentially, it's It's, uh, the The term Overwatch is a military tactic which, naturally, sort of we like anyway, um, but it represents the where essentially, you have one military unit providing support to another [00:22:30] unit, thus allowing that unit to perform, um, unheeded or, um challenged, if you like. So from a you know, transferring that on to us of a personal level, that's essentially what we do. You know, we provide support to people. We give them an outlet for some of the the sort of stress and anxiety that they might be feeling that's allowing them to be the very best that they can do and to serve New Zealand to the full. Is the group aligned with any either national body or international body of economic support groups? Um, we work, um, or we have, [00:23:00] uh, certainly good working relationships with, um, similar groups around the world. Uh, there is an organisation in Australia called Deli. The Defence. Um, gay and Lesbian Information Service. Uh, we, um they're certainly our closest. Uh uh, partner, if you like, or, um ally, um, similarly, in America, there is the out of, uh, service legal defence network. SLDN um and, uh, they sit outside of the US Department of Defence. But they provide support and advocacy to people who are out [00:23:30] in the wake of the repeal of don't ask, don't tell. And similarly, in the UK, we have, uh, proud to serve, which is another, uh, support agency which works outside of the UK Ministry of Defence, but very closely with the UK Ministry of Defence. And again, they provide peer support, network advice, advocacy, support, that kind of thing. What is the difference between working within the defence force and working as a as an organisation outside? Well, I think when we were establishing, um, Overwatch, we we made the conscious decision that we wanted [00:24:00] to be an entity inside defence. I think it it gives the group, um, a degree of credibility in terms of its authenticity and and, uh, this the level of support we can provide our people. But I think it also represents the degree of support from command for the well-being of all of our people. And the fact that, um, you know, we're seen as a as much as a of a a valuable resource in terms of of well-being and support as any other NZDF entity. So [00:24:30] it's it's it's been a really positive process. And I think, you know, by being a formal mechanism within defence, we were able to to reach more people and to support more people. You mentioned just earlier that today is the pride parade in Auckland, and I'm wondering, how did the group get involved with the parade? Um crikey. Uh, the parade organisers, um, essentially made contact with us. Um, there have been some other some media [00:25:00] articles about Overwatch being launched. Um, certainly at the beginning of 2012, and they approached us and asked if we could, so we weren't sure at the time. So we spoke to the chief of defence Force and said, Look, you know, these are some events that we'd like to, um, be involved in, Um big gay out was one out in the square was another, uh, and ultimately, uh, the Auckland Pride parade. Um, and the response that we got from the chief of Defence Force that he was completely supportive. And, um, once we had that sign off, [00:25:30] then we were free to start the planning and and and get things put in place. It's quite significant today because you're also able to march in uniform, where for a lot of international counterparts they that that they're not allowed to do that, are they? That's right. Um, it's it is big, and I think that again it reflects the the support that we have, Um, as, um, out, uh or, you know, GL BT, um, service people and civilians within defence, you know, from the very top. And it it's It's an opportunity, [00:26:00] I think, for, you know, the senior levels of of the defence force to to express their support for what we're doing. And the Chief defence force, you know, recognises that, you know, supporting his people is is vitally important to, you know, supporting the defence force. And, um, that means supporting all of your people and and the backing that we've got and and that includes authority to wear uniform at events such as this is is very valuable. And it's great how many people are marching. Um, can't put my fingers on the exact numbers. Um, we've got a mix of people in uniform [00:26:30] as well as natural. Our civilian staff, uh, as well. We've also got, um, partners and spouses of of service People are marching alongside us as well and key supporters from the defence force. So we've got a number of people who have who aren't, uh, GL BT. But, um, from the defence force who support equity and support the Overwatch organisation. So I think in total, um, around 50 ish, Possibly. But, um, yeah, we'll see when I get to Arch Hill [00:27:00] and, uh, see how many people are there, but, uh, certainly a significant enough, um uh, number to to draw some attention. Why do you think it's important to be in a parade like this? I think a number of reasons, I think, firstly, it's it's it's an opportunity to demonstrate the defence really is a modern military. You know that we we value all of our people that, um we recognise that diversity is one of our key strengths. And it's not a weakness. I mean, today we recognise [00:27:30] as one of one of the most professional militaries in the world and in part that is because of our inclusive culture, as opposed to in spite of it. Um but I think also it sends an extremely positive message to those men and women you know who, like many outside in mainstream society, are perhaps struggling with their identity. And it clearly hopefully shows that, you know, you can be whoever you want to be, and you can enjoy a full and rewarding career in the service. Um, and if you need support, um, that support is available [00:28:00] to you, and it's endorsed by the absolute, very top of the organisation. Did you ever think that you'd be marching in a pride parade? No. Um, I never thought I'd be chairman of this group. Uh, it's It's been an interesting journey, and I think it's it's, um it it's it's great to see how far we've come and I, I think it. It's, um I think it's something I've always kind of thought it would be great to to see happen. Um, but I think in terms of, um, my [00:28:30] own personal aspirations, Yeah, it's it's been it's been quite interesting. So, um, I mean, the defence force has always been a well, certainly, um, since I've been serving in New Zealand, the defence forces has been very supportive of me and it's been very supportive of my my GL BT, um, friends and colleagues. But, um, I think it's it's I think it's great. I think it, you know, like like I said, it sends a really positive message, both outwardly, to the wider community, um, but inwardly to, um, to our own people as well. So [00:29:00] what do you think the biggest challenges are facing rainbow people now in the force? I think one of the biggest challenges that, um, we face is it's educating people and it's educating ourselves. Um, you know, the I think there's a perception out there that the the Rainbow Community is this one blob of identical people, and we're all extremely different. We have extremely different needs. Um, [00:29:30] transgender people are not the same as they're not ultra gay, gay people that have kind of gone through and out the other side. You know, they you know, we all have different needs, and we need to understand what those needs are. So I think for the defence force, one of our our challenges on an organisational level is educating our people and and growing that level of understanding and I. I think once that knowledge gets out there, life will become easier. People will understand more command will be easier to deliver. But I think really, on a on an individual [00:30:00] level, it's It's much the same as, as perhaps, you know, it is for a lot of people, you know, each each individual person's journey is very different. And and it's very easy for me to sit here. You know, an openly gay man with, you know, long term partner, you know, quite nicely. Settled to to say Well, you know, the legislation is in place. Society supports gay people. What more do we need? But there are still people out there, as you know, in the defence force as well as outside in in, you know, the mainstream society who are still struggling with their identity. They're facing a lot of, um, [00:30:30] anxiety and stress. And I think you know, the defence force has a responsibility to do what it can, um, to support those people to relieve that anxiety and and and remove those those stresses from them. And that's that's good for the individual. But it's also good for the defence force because you know what we need are focused, professional, um, soldiers, sailors and airmen who are, you know, working on the the the tasking hand, which is the defence of New Zealand. And they can do that so much better if they're not stressing about these other issues that are going on in their private [00:31:00] life.

IRN: 742
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/sam_orchard_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004226
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089520
TITLE: Sam Orchard profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Sam Orchard
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Alison Bechdel; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Invercargill; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Rooster Tails; Sam Orchard; Sydney; arts; comics; coming out; creativity; difference; family; gender; growing up; identity; internet; invisibility; isolation; labels; marriage equality; media; movies; normalisation; pronouns; queer; religion; school; sexuality; storytelling; study; subversion; television; theatre; transgender; transition; visual arts; youth
DATE: 13 February 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Sam talks about growing up, comics and creativity.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Sam, and I'm Australian by birth. So was born in Sydney in 1984 and have travelled around Sydney, Melbourne, Tasmania. Um, when I was 16, we moved to Invercargill and then I went up to a uni at Otago when I was 18 and spent eight years there before moving up here. And [00:00:30] here I am. Tell me about the differences between going from somewhere like Sydney and these the these larger cities to somewhere like Invercargill. Well, uh, so I I've been used to travelling around since I was a little kid. We moved to Melbourne when I was four and then Invercargill and back to Melbourne. And I was living in Melbourne when I was starting to think about sexuality stuff, and I grew up as a girl. So that was when I first started thinking about [00:01:00] sexuality, and when I was 16, I fell in love with a girl and my mom said I didn't tell her, but around that time my mum had said, Dad's got a job over in Invercargill. Do you want to go? And I was like, Yeah, get me out of here. I need to get as far away from this as possible. I can't deal with it and then got to Invercargill and realised just how small towns could be like from living in [00:01:30] Melbourne, where there's, I don't know, sort of four or 5 million people to going to Invercargill where there's significantly less. I remember when we first got off the plane, my dad drove from one end of the city to the others. I thought, Is that it? This is This is going to be terrible. Um, I think it was. It was a real shock to the system, both in terms of going from a place where it was relatively queer, friendly, even though I was a teenager growing [00:02:00] up in a Catholic school and it was pretty scary to be out at all. But to be I knew that there were other queer people around in the Melbourne in Melbourne City, whereas in Invercargill it wasn't OK to be gay at all. And I had one of I remember really clearly in one of my classes, one of the boys talking about how gay people should all be put on an island and shot. And he said that in earshot of my teacher who kind of nodded [00:02:30] in in agreeance and that was it. And so that was really shocking for me and kind of I spent the last the next couple of years thinking, OK, it's not OK to be who I am, and it's certainly not OK to tell anyone about it. So that was kind of quite a formative thing for me to keep me in the closet for a good number of years after that, heading back to Australia and and when you were in Melbourne growing up, when did you start [00:03:00] realising that that that maybe you were liking the same sex? Um, I guess it's it feels really complicated for me in terms of gender and sexuality stuff, because they, they both kind of were intertwined with one another of I only have brothers and felt like one of the boys most of most of my childhood growing up that it was just like, Oh yeah, we just This is how we do life And it was quite [00:03:30] it was quite strange, moving into high school and starting. That's when people really started breaking up into different friendship groups and lots of my friends who were girls, like started liking boys and I was like, This is the most boring conversation ever. I don't feel attracted to anyone. Why do Why does everyone spend all their time talking about this stuff? And then when I did start to feel attraction, it was really scary because I was like, Oh, I'm not [00:04:00] feeling attraction in the same way that other people are. I don't really know what to do with this and just that feeling of feeling different and feeling bad for feeling different. Um, so I think I started thinking about it around, Yeah, around high school. So 13, 14 years old and really didn't stop thinking about it, and I don't think I ever have stopped thinking about it. I don't know what my sexuality is. Still, I don't have any words for it other than queer, [00:04:30] but I think definitely realising that I was attracted to other other girls in my class around sort of 14, 15, 16. And by the time I had words to articulate it, sort of when I was 16 and really fell in love with someone that it made me reflect on other friendships that I'd had with other other girls and other feelings that I'd had that I could be like Oh, yeah, that was a crush. That's what my friends [00:05:00] are talking about when they like other boys or whatever. So I I think I had. I didn't have as many words for them for for it. But I was feeling the feelings for a long time, if that makes sense, yeah, speaking of words around you, like within the family or within the school, what words were used to describe gay and lesbian or or either sexuality or gender variations? Uh, well, [00:05:30] I guess my mom has three sisters and two of them were gay. So we had words for a lesbian gay that that all made sense. It was spoken about. It was there. It was fine. Um, I think in high school those words were used as derogatory words. Quite a lot. That was That was just, you know, things were gay and that meant they were bad. And I think that's still something that lots of lots [00:06:00] of high schoolers use and adults, Um, in high school, it was something that because we were Catholic in a Catholic high school, it wasn't really OK to be out There was there were two lesbians in in the in the class, two years older than me and they were the only out kids at the school. And there was lots of rumours about how one of them wasn't really gay, but would had been kind of forced into this relationship [00:06:30] because she didn't know how to say no or and just really gross kind of social isolation. Of those two girls. That kind of it was really apparent that it wasn't OK to be out and that you if if you were out, you wouldn't have any friends. I thought being different was bad and that was I. I spent a long time trying to blend in and be invisible and not be known and not be seen because I was really scared of who I was. And I think [00:07:00] that was because I knew that I was different and I thought that if I was different, I would be picked on. I would be ostracised. I would be told that I'm a freak or a weirdo and that my difference would be something that distances myself from people. And I think that's been a really a really big thing that has shifted for me, that actually it's my difference that allows me to connect well with other people. And it's something that brings me closer to people, and it's also something that highlights [00:07:30] strengths and assets that I have. So that's nice. In terms of fitting in, What can you describe to me? What some of the kind of things that you would do to fit in because, I mean, that must be more obviously a conscious decision. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I remember countless times of getting makeovers with friends who would tell me to wear makeup and do this stuff and me really actively, like, Yep, I'm gonna try and be this girl and I'm gonna [00:08:00] try and be a successful girl. And I hope this works and would have long hair would wear the skirts, would do everything that I could, and all the while feeling actively uncomfortable and feeling actively disassociated from myself and just feeling like I was really failing at it. It's quite hilarious to look at pictures of me as a teenager where I'm like, actively uncomfortable, but thinking this [00:08:30] is the only way that this is how I'm supposed to be, So I will try really hard to do it. Can you describe for me? Um, like you were saying, Oh, to be a successful girl. How? I mean, how do you get the idea of you know, what is a successful girl? Can you describe for me what I think in my mind? When I was younger, being successful girl was, was wearing the skirts, was having the boyfriend was doing those stereotypical things that actually, when I started to unpack a lot of [00:09:00] that stuff, I no one around me was a stereotypical girl. But I feel like I've been fed a lot of images about what it meant to be successful from media, from friends, from family. Um, and I was always aware when I wasn't doing it right, because either I would notice my difference, or I'd notice people saying, I don't understand why you dress like that or I don't understand this. Something's not working. And, you know, [00:09:30] it was a combination of both sexuality stuff and gender stuff of just trying to work out what was going on and how I felt about how I felt about that stuff. as well of, you know, that was really important for me for a long time, to have really long hair and to use it to hide myself and and wear really baggy clothing to hide anything that was going on. No, it was It was quite funny when I moved to Inver Cargo [00:10:00] in terms of gender stuff compared to the gender norms in in Australian high schools, particularly in Melbourne, where there's a really high percentage of, um, Italian and Greek girls who are very pretty, lots of lots of makeup and hugs and kisses all around. And then I moved to Invercargill, where the norm for girls was, you know, quite practical. Wear very butch personalities, like, quite tough. That was how that's how girls [00:10:30] were very rural. And I really loved it when I first moved to Inver Cargo in terms of that stuff, because I could finally just wear jeans and a t-shirt, and that would be that's kind of the norm. Um, but it was yeah, really interesting in terms of growing up and moving around so much that there was lots of different ideas about what a girl could be. And even though I felt all the time. No matter which incarnation of that, I was doing it wrong. Um, I think it was It was It was a really nice [00:11:00] move from Melbourne to Inver Cargo. In terms of that stuff, I felt like finally I could be be a more successful girl in that stuff. Talk to me about the the the the gender side of things and and how that kind of comes up for you and how then it also relates to sexuality. Well, I guess when I was when I was 21 I was finally able to tell other people that I was attracted to girls. And I thought, This [00:11:30] is great. I'm finally free enough to be like, Yeah, this is an important part of my identity. And I figured it out and I was still feeling a little bit like, Oh, no, this is not right. This is not the full picture. And I didn't really understand why. And I thought, maybe I'm just still working through internalised homophobia stuff. And then I remember when I was at university, I met a trans guy for the first time, and it just it blew [00:12:00] my mind that this guy was talking to me and he was like, Yeah, I was born a girl, blah, blah. I was like, What? I didn't know you could do that. What the hell? I thought it only went the other way. And that was the only story I'd ever been told and that it was a kind of trapped in the wrong body thing. And that wasn't how I felt. And the guy who I was talking to kind of was like, Yeah, nah, you know, I've just been transitioning to make myself feel more comfortable, and this is what works for me. And after that, [00:12:30] I was like, literally a million things just started clicking off into my in my head And I thought, This is this is makes sense for me. This makes complete sense. And I thought, I'm not going to spend another seven years like I did with sexuality, stuff of hating myself and not talking to people that I'm just gonna go with it. And I told my girlfriend at the time and just kind of started working out what made me comfortable. What? Didn't and it kind of all played into that and [00:13:00] part of that was around sexuality stuff. When I was, I got a really big crush on Giles from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and I couldn't explain it to anyone other than I really like Giles in a gay way. And they were like, I don't understand how can you be a lesbian and be attracted to Giles in a gay way? Who was a man? And and so when I was exploring the gender stuff, that was one of the click moments of like, Ah, OK, [00:13:30] if I'm attracted to someone and the dynamic is that we're both masculine people, then that makes that makes more sense. Um, so I don't That was how it kind of came into play that when I have relationships with people, whether they're boys, girls or gender, queer or whatever that mhm that it's, I don't think I could ever be in a straight relationship [00:14:00] that I'm just the dynamics that I really like is is a queer dynamic, Um, and like it was really interesting listening to other Trans guys stories where some trans guys really solidly identify as straight so they will transition to be a boy and only go out with women and I was like, OK, I can understand that I'm still attracted to women but I don't see my dynamics with them being straight. I don't know how to explain [00:14:30] it more than that, Um, and certainly when I'm going out with other guys, it's It's not straight. And yeah, Do you think it's easier or harder to, um, have names for these things, like, you know, trans and gay lesbian bla bla bla bla bla or I am just what I am I mean, how how do you feel about I mean, is it easy to have, like, these kind of labels that you can kind of gravitate to, Or is it easier just to [00:15:00] say, Well, it's completely fluid? That is an interesting question I think I use. I use labels strategically in that they're useful to a point. It's it's really helpful for me talking to my mum, for example of saying I am a trans man. I need male pronouns. I need you to call me by my boy name, and that's really important. It has clarity. It's It gives her a sense of where, how to how to be directive [00:15:30] and and what to tell other people and not have to necessarily expose a whole lot of really complex and vulnerable things about myself. And it's helpful for me, like in the workplace as well. If if people check in and they're like so you you use, he not, she and I can be like Yep, that's fine. This is good and treat me like a man because that's what I am. So I think that's that's helpful in terms of relating to people who might not have [00:16:00] a really complex or invested, um, knowledge or insight into fluidity of either gender or sexuality stuff. I think it's also something for me is to avoid those labels is something important as well. Of being able to relate to other people like me is really important that when I hear someone else say, Yeah, I don't know what my sexuality is, then I can be like Oh, good, I'm not the only one that it's It's really [00:16:30] nice for me to not have it all figured out and for it still to be a journey, and that there's something quite subversive about that that I really relate to, to be kind of like I don't know I Here's how I feel at the moment I'm in a relationship with this type of person, but that might change. And and maybe the words I use will change because they've already changed quite a lot in my life. So yeah, I think both both Both are [00:17:00] easy in different situations and both are hard in different situations as well. Talk to me about how the words have changed. I guess in terms of when I was growing up, when you're little and you're not thinking about these things, you're assumed to be CIS gender. So the same sex that you're assigned at birth, Um, and also straight. And for a long time I just assumed I was straight because I didn't know that I wasn't. And certainly when I was going [00:17:30] through high school and all the girls were talking about the boys that they had crushes on and I didn't relate, I thought, Well, maybe I'm asexuals. I don't really care about anyone else. I'm more excited about reading books because I'm a nerd. Um and then I use lesbian for a while, and I thought about using bisexual, but it just didn't feel right. And then I started thinking about guys in a gay way, and so I was like, maybe I'm gay and then [00:18:00] using Trans Men because I was transitioning from female to male. So I used that for a while, and I really like the word dyke, which is really odd. The more I look like a guy, the more I like throwing, in their words around my dark personality. Um, I like mostly I like that because it confuses people, I think, um, but yeah, those are are kind of handful, and queer [00:18:30] is is the easiest word to use. That kind of encompasses both how I feel about my gender and my sexuality, I think bent me. Those are just some of the words, No. Can you talk to me about, um, or describe me that feeling of not feeling right? You know, when something's not quite clicking in your life, you know, you were saying as a as a teenager, I'm trying to [00:19:00] kind of understand what that feeling feels like. Um, I think it's a feeling of it's kind of for me. It's a similar feeling for Win. I have a song stuck in my head, but I don't know what the lyrics are, but I know the tune, and I know the first couple of words, but I can't figure out what the next couple of words are, and I know I know it, but it's not unlocking. It's kind of that feeling. Or like [00:19:30] you're trying to think of the star of the movie and you can't You can almost taste his name or her name, but you can't quite grasp it yet. I think that's what the feeling was that it was. I know there's more, but I don't know what what it is, and it's not. I haven't had that hard moment yet. I think that's what it what it feels like. And when was that first moment? [00:20:00] I think with the gender stuff, it was certainly with the, um with talking to the Trans guy at university and just having the oh, people like me exist. I'm not crazy, that's great. Um, and I think I think with the, um before that in terms of sexuality stuff and liking women or girls because I was a girl then was happened [00:20:30] quite a few times before, it actually came into my consciousness like I remember I remember walking down the stairs and thinking about my aunt and being like, Yeah, I'm a lesbian too, And and that was the first time that it came into my consciousness. I remember actually having to sit down and, like, sit at the table and take 10 deep breaths and be like, Where did that thought come from? Or no, Um, but on hindsight, that had been kind of pushing itself to the [00:21:00] surface for quite a few years. In terms of the friendships that I had had, um, and the feelings I'd had for other other people in my class that I couldn't work out why they were different from other friendships because it wasn't like it was there, but I didn't have any words for it. So thinking about, um because you've done quite a lot of kind of youth work, how do you translate your experiences to, uh, like helping? How [00:21:30] how do you assist them in kind of coming to those realisations, I guess. Um, I think there's something about role modelling of like that. It's OK to not have all the answers and just being open. If you have answers, that's awesome. And if you don't That's also awesome. It's an exciting place to be. Um, I think also acknowledging that the time that I grew up in high school is drastically different from the time that people are in high school now and what it means like [00:22:00] and I'd like to think I'm reasonably young, but it's still such a such an amazing difference that's happened over the last 10 20 years in terms of representation on television and um in the media, what's talked about, Like I think when I was living in Tasmania, it was still they still had. It was illegal to be gay when I was growing up there, [00:22:30] which, you know, I was there from age 6 to 12 and it didn't it didn't have an impact on me because I didn't know. But it's funny to think about that now. And I went. I recently went back to Tasmania and visited and seemed like it was full of lesbians everywhere. It was so cute. But, um, I think the world is drastically different place as well, and I think that I I learn a lot from young people in terms of sexuality and gender stuff, particularly [00:23:00] around the words and terms that they use. Lesbian doesn't seem to be a word that a lot of what young women will use anymore. Um, and that, in fact, it seems like there's not a lot of it. Seems like there's a kind of almost commitment to being fluid and not having labels, which I personally relate to, So I think that's really nice. Um, but I I guess part of working with [00:23:30] young people is just learning from them and just kind of holding the space of the unknown, which is just that it's OK not to have it figured out, and, you know, you might not have it figured out until you're 87. I still don't have it figured out, and that's OK, Yeah. What about your family? How did they react? I guess it's been a long process that I remember writing them a letter when I was 21 and coming out [00:24:00] as a lesbian, and that was a kind of by that stage. I'd already really thought about it and gone through everything. And my brothers already had kind of figured it out, and we're like Well, yeah, obviously, and my mom and dad They said they didn't see it coming. But we're like, OK, well, whatever We still love you. We know what that is so and I think that was It was more shocking coming out as Trans later on, where it was a kind of [00:24:30] is more unknown, like they know my aunties, they love them and they know what that means within society. And I think it's a much scarier thing, particularly for trans men. In terms of that, there's there's just nothing out there in terms of trans trans guy stuff. Um, and I think Trans women have a whole different set of problems going on in terms of representations in the media, in terms of [00:25:00] the slew of negativity that happens, whereas the issues around Trans Men is that there is no representation going on. And so I think it's taken my family a bit more to work out. Well, what does that mean? And particularly only having brothers and no sisters? That and my brothers are all very kind of butch masculine people who really like playing football, and my mum was like, you're not going to turn into the [00:25:30] MIU and I was like, No, no I'm still the same and I still enjoy cooking, and I'm still going to go out to the theatre like my masculinity is very different from them, but that But I'm still masculine. I'm still a still a man, and I think that's just that's just taking a little bit longer to understand what that means and how to talk with it. Talk about that with each other and myself and with other people as well. So [00:26:00] it's about for me. I think it's about being patient and being generous that when I think about how long it's taken me to even articulate gender stuff in particular, then of course it's gonna take them a while as well. Um, and this stuff is scary when I feel like we're really good as a society in terms of talking about sexuality stuff. And, you know, even when you when you look at, um, marriage [00:26:30] equality and that the conversations that are happening around that they're all focused on lesbian and gay people being able to marry. When you when you actually look at the law and how it's been, um, worded, which is really great in terms of what? How Louisa wall has worded that stuff. Um, it's actually has some really important implications for trans people. So at the moment, if you're a trans person [00:27:00] and you're married and then you want to transition to the opposite sex, you have to get divorced if you're married to someone. So if you're say, you're a trans woman and you're legally male and you're married to a woman, if you want to successfully get an F on your birth certificate, you need to divorce the person that you're married to, and so like in order to get an F and then you're not allowed to marry them. So like and [00:27:30] that's a huge thing. It has huge implications for family. It has huge implications for how you feel about your relationship like, and I feel frustrated that those discussions get sidelined and get get forgotten quite a lot. And I think that has an impact in terms of for me personally. It has an impact on how my moms, for example, sees what [00:28:00] Trans is because we get forgotten quite a lot, and we get kind of seen as that, almost like the dirty little brother or the dirty little sister who is who is not, who's not as good as the others, which is really hard. I think that that when conversations play out, particularly in terms of queer marriage or marriage equality, that when you're talking about we're normal, we're just like you. It's [00:28:30] playing into that difference is bad thing, whereas actually what we should be saying is we're different and some of us want to get married, and that's really great and we should be supporting difference within our society. And difference means different different types of relationships, whether they're same sex, whether whether they're polyamorous, whether they're between trans people, whatever. And I feel like a lot of the conversations that happen within mainstream media are [00:29:00] really normative and and rely on the fact that gays and lesbians are normal and just like everyone else, as opposed to let's celebrate our differences. I totally forgot what the question was. Do you think that's a conscious decision on the promoters of the bill so that actually mainstream get it? Or do you think it's just it's just one of those you know, things that just happened? Um, it might be. And if if that is the [00:29:30] case, then I feel like I feel really disappointed, a disappointed in people promoting the bill, but also disappointed in the lack, the lack of trust for wider, for wider society, to get complexities in life and complexities in relationships. Um, I'm not sure. I don't know. I feel like lots of people will talk about marriage equality in really different ways, and I don't think it's just one group pushing for one agenda. [00:30:00] I think I think in terms of media, they like to simplify things down to the easiest thing. And I think that's a huge problem within media At the moment that we're not allowing for for complexities and conversations that we do like to scapegoat people, we do like to stereotype them, push them into small boxes. Um, I think it's incredibly disappointing, but I don't think it's. I don't think there's any one group to blame to say you're doing it wrong. [00:30:30] I just I feel disappointed with the end result. I guess if the marriage equality bill passes, what will that then mean? It will mean that the Trans people can marry whoever they want, which is great, and they can transition, and it won't affect their relationship status, which is fantastic, which is how it should be for everyone. I also think that in terms of how it's being framed, a lot of it is talking about This is our our last chance to [00:31:00] our last big hurdle to get through. And, you know, little, little brother Little sister in the corner is saying, Hey, Trans people are still not in the Human Rights Act like we've still got a few more hurdles, and also young people in schools are still being bullied relentlessly. Marriage is not going to change that. Like it might do a little bit for sure, but I think that by promoting it as the single issue and the issue that will [00:31:30] save us all is really short sighted. I, um, love this, uh, sense of energy I get from you. When? When When you're talking about these things, can you tell me about, um, your kind of energy and how you use that in kind of creative ways? Because not only do you obviously a very eloquent talker, but also you do you know, things like comic and graphic design. And, um, I'm really interested [00:32:00] in how you use energy in creative ways. Um, I think I started drawing because, like, thank you for saying that I am eloquent in my words because I don't feel eloquent in my words. And a lot of the time I just have to draw on a piece of paper to understand what I'm thinking. And so I think that's how it kind of came about. And it's really important for me to I really like comics as [00:32:30] a subversive art form and as a really queer art form, because it's not quite art, and it's not quite writing, and it's not quite ever taken seriously. But it has such a powerful impact, like if you just even if you just look at the editorial cartoons in the paper, the fact that they're in every single issue of the paper and they're really important to have there and, you know, in terms of the amount of space that it takes up, [00:33:00] it has such a such a much bigger impact, whether people agree with it or not, or it's still, it's still quite often invokes a response that's larger than a paragraph of writing. I feel, um, so that's that's what I like about comics in particular, and I use them as a way of sorting out my own thoughts and ideas as well as, um, as a way of [00:33:30] taking control of media and creating my own stuff. When I was in university, I was studying media and did my dissertation on representations of queer women in film, and it was really horrible. I said The film, like the topic I chose, was bad in that I looked at the film monster with Charlize Theron and was looking at her within the con, her character of a serial killer who is involved [00:34:00] with another woman and also has a really butch gender identity. And I was examining that character in relation to the history of representations of other queer women. And it just came to me that that when we embody difference quite often in mainstream media, if you embody too much difference, then you're seen as unstable, and that's either. It usually comes out as either violent towards others or violent towards yourself, in which [00:34:30] case, quite often they end up dying or killing someone or both, which is what happens and, um, monster happens in basic instinct happens in wild things like fried green tomatoes. Even those girls end up killing someone like even the movies that are heartwarming have have quite tragic and violent consequences. So part of me creating comics is about saying, No, I'm not going to I'm not [00:35:00] I'm not gonna take mainstream media as the only kind of media that I'm allowed to consume. I'm gonna create my own. And part of that came about because I read other people's Web comics and doodles, and that's how I help. That's what helped me find words for myself and realise that I wasn't alone. And so that's what I kind of use comics to create comics or stories that I want to hear and stories [00:35:30] that celebrate difference rather than say that difference will ultimately make you unstable, creating stuff yourself, um, that that, to me, feels like a A. You must get a great sense of empowerment from from doing that and and also publishing it, is it? I mean, is it hard to I mean, have you tried to be published by other publishers? Or do you just feel that actually, you're creating because know that's [00:36:00] what you do both. I think I create because I have to, and that's part of me staying alive and feeling good and feeling feeling human. Um, I don't think I could exist without writing comics and and telling stories. Uh, and I think I've also I've like, I've had little comics here and there in different books and things like that and have been [00:36:30] trying to to get a book published in which I've got a bunch of stories from, um, people that I interviewed that I wrote for my Masters, which is exploring this, my story and the stories of others about growing up and being queer, whatever that means for anyone. LGBT sexuality and gender diverse, um, identities in New Zealand. And it kind of covers [00:37:00] people with different sexualities genders across different times and across different places within New Zealand. And I think the the biggest problem in terms of getting that published is that a It's really hard to get a book published in New Zealand and B when it's a comic book and you need to print it in colour. It costs heaps of money, so I think that's that's where I can kind of keep getting stuck, and I keep saying, I'm going to do crowd funding like [00:37:30] set up a pledge, me or Kickstarter or something. But I'm just busy, so I feel like those stories will come out, and it's nice to have a website where I can put up some stories about myself on there. But I don't feel like I want to put the stories that other people have given me on there yet. Um, I'd rather keep that contained within the book. And if I if I can get that published, that would be great. Otherwise, [00:38:00] that would just be funny. What are your thoughts on, Um, when you are asking somebody else to give you their story? Um, I'm I'm wondering, can you talk about the the the the feeling of responsibility? You have to to hold on to that. Yeah, definitely. When I was doing my Masters, my proposal that I put in was I was going to tell stories about other people about being in New Zealand, and it was going to be great [00:38:30] and not about me at all. And as soon as I started asking the questions of different people and sitting down with the interviews, I thought, I can't do that It's not fair to put their vulnerabilities out there without my own and as well as the fact that it, as I was asking these questions, it became more. I became more and more aware that as I constructed this story physically, like drawing the panels [00:39:00] that my story was coming through in terms of my interpretation of that, whether that was how I drew them or which which parts of the story felt really important to highlight, um, it felt unethical to write their story without including mine alongside. And the way that the book works is that it's kind of about me creating a story and then reflecting back on the people that I've interviewed so [00:39:30] that that's ultimately how I felt like I could do it ethically was about not other people and saying, This is all about you, um, but actually saying, but actually using it as a conversation piece to say this is what I've got out of this story, and this is how I've constructed it, and this is what it means in terms of my stuff. So one of the stories is about a boy, um, growing up [00:40:00] and negotiating his relationship with God as a Christian person as well as his his queer queer identity and falling in love with another boy. And I felt like I couldn't tell that story without thinking about my own background and growing up as Catholic and what that did for me. And in this particular instance, the boy found a way to hold both at the same time. And I haven't so that felt [00:40:30] really important as a counter to include both to say, Yep, this guy's got it figured out and has and figured out how to make it work for him and for me. When I think about Christianity and my sexuality and gender, I that's where I have to part ways, um, and it, it feels like for me ethically, it was important to include both because I felt a real responsibility to say [00:41:00] I my story exists in relation to these other people and because I'm actively constructing their story, it's really important for the reader to understand the context in which I'm coming at it from as well publishing through a website. What kind of, um, feedback or interaction do you get with the audience? Um, positive? Mostly, [00:41:30] like just It's quite it's quite nice in terms of, um, writing a Web comic because there's the comments function, which means people can just write little sentences or whatever. I wrote a comic a couple of weeks ago about how I really identify with being in the Hufflepuff house in Harry Potter and I had about 20 comments of people being like I'm Raven Claw. No, I'm Slytherin or the sorting hat sorted me into Gryffindor and I hate it. It was really, [00:42:00] really nice, like just that kind of small, small, um, interaction that you get and people can feed off each other. And I that's That's one of the funniest things that I like about the Internet, that it can kind of build small conversations and that, um, it doesn't have to be kind of heavy or big essays or anything like that, but can just be a kind of starting point for for connections. Uh, I think [00:42:30] it's weird as well that lots of people know about me and Joe and will come up to us and see us in a cafe or at an event and be like they'll say to Joe Joe, I recognise you from your haircut, um, and then starts saying stuff about our lives that I'm like, How do they know that? And it's a weird feeling to know that they know a lot about us from my comics, but I don't necessarily know anything [00:43:00] about them. And I'm I'm very conscious about what I put up on the Internet and what I choose to talk about in the comics and what I don't And I check in with Joe around what's OK, stuff to put up and whether he feels comfortable. So it's a It's a very constructed identity that I have in terms of the rooster tales. Sam Orchard, Comic boy Identity. Um, but it is funny when it hits you back at real life, and they're like, I really know all about you. I'm, like, kind of but not [00:43:30] really. And it's Yeah, it's a It's a fascinating, fascinating thing. I think I have multiple real real identities as well of like my work persona and youth work, Sam and at Home Sam and Boyfriend Sam and whatever. So I feel like II. I feel like we're already all doing that anyway. But there's something [00:44:00] about the Internet that's different in terms of the longevity of stuff like once it's on the Internet, it's not. It's not coming down even when you think it's come down. It's not. And I think that's that's a really interesting place for discussions. And I think that yeah, know there's lots of discussions about how young people don't really know the consequences of their actions in terms of Facebook. And actually, I think [00:44:30] that's a lot of projection from adults because adults don't actually know the consequences because they haven't grown up with Web 2. 0 whereas these young people do and they know about how to relate to people in different ways, and they know how to negotiate that stuff between real life, identity and non-real, life, identity or into their identities. Um, like that it is. It is fascinating and new, and I feel like I'm I'm part [00:45:00] of that kind of cusp generation who has had it like had it for most of their lives, certainly have had Internet since I was a teenager, but hasn't grown up with it fully embedded in the same way that my my younger brother has. I think there's some really awesome, awesome things about that. And there's also a lot of things that we haven't we haven't figured out yet. I suppose one of the things [00:45:30] with stuff being online basically forever once it's up, is that it's a way of, I guess, leaving your mark like I mean, you know, rather than being published in a in a physical copy that actually your material is there and will be there and yeah, that's right. 2000 years. We still Yeah, and it comes up in Weird Blaze as well. Like I remember I did a comic for a friend. It was just a little postcard image of John Key, and [00:46:00] I did it for his blog about 15 years ago, and it was only a small not even 15. It can't be that 10 years ago it was only a small little picture, and it just says, like John Key loves everyone or something. And now when you say it's John Key cartoon, it comes up as one of the top results. I was like, Oh, no, there's quite bad. It's a bad drawing as well, Like I look at it, I'm like, Oh, I really wish that didn't come up and didn't have my name attached to it. [00:46:30] But it's there, and I don't even know who's hosting it or anything like that. So, yeah, there's there's good. You can leave your mark in a good way, and you can also leave your mark in a way that's a little bit embarrassing. I think when you look at your work, when you look at your past work, um, are you able to look kind of objectively at it and go, Oh, that's so good. That was a good comic or that was not so good, I mean, or do you just not look at it? Or do you just go? Yeah, that's that's how it was. Um, no. [00:47:00] Mostly I look at it and cringe and think, Oh, the drawings are so bad. I'm so angsty. But then I try and think, No, this is just part of the story, and I try and remove myself from it. But mostly I just if I try and look back through old stuff, I just cringe and feel really embarrassed. But I try and tell myself that's all part of the [00:47:30] That's all part of it. I was reading, um, the big Collection of Alison Bechdel's dykes to watch out for the whole the whole series of it. And it was the same when when I was looking at the first few pages of her comic of that and the drawings were really rough, and she hadn't quite figured out how people were going to look, and if you kind of flick through it to the end, it was really polished. She'd obviously really gotten to know every line and dot of each of the characters. [00:48:00] And so it was. It's like watching Old Simpsons episodes where they just look weird. And then later on, there's a formula and a free to it. That is, they've got it sorted. So I I like to think of it in that There I am. Compare myself to Alison Big Dale. That's a so tell me a wee bit about your process in terms of of doing a cartoon when you're given a blank page, where we how how do [00:48:30] you? Um, uh, it depends for those detail. I just think What are the funny things that have happened to me this week? And sometimes it's really easy to think of funny things, and sometimes it's not, And I try and take it from a strengths based. That's really important for me, that I'm telling stories that make me laugh most of the time. And every now and again there's peppers of angst and sadness. [00:49:00] But mostly I try and take it from a These are the funny things about you know it. It's supposed to be about celebrating the differences in my life. Um so mostly it's just, I think, back of what what I've laughed at during the week and what can easily fit into four panels. It's hard to construct a story within just four panels, Um, and and then I have to check in with [00:49:30] Joe about whether it's OK to write or whoever I'm running the comic about as well. But yeah, mostly, it's just mostly, it's just about stories that make me laugh or things that are unexpected that I like. And then I sit down and put on really bad television and drew it. How do you distil down until say like 44 moments that you want to kind of capture in frames? I feel like I'm still working [00:50:00] on that like I'm not. I don't feel like I've got it down to an exact ability to do that, and maybe that's what makes me keep going because I want to make it good. Um, but I try and I try and concentrate on rhythm. Quite a lot of of how each panel reads in relation to each other and I'll try. And usually if someone else is around in the house, I'll get them to read it. So if [00:50:30] we have a guest, or if Joe's there, I'll get him to read it and watch how he reacts to different panels. So then I can tell if it's working or not. I always like the last panel to have, uh, the kind of main beat, but for me it feels yeah, it feels about a four beat kind of poem sort of thing. Do you find you can keep a sense of that beat after you've been working on something for for a couple [00:51:00] of hours? Or do you actually have to shot to someone else so that you can gauge if if it's actually working? Well, usually I write down, so I write down the script for it. Whether that's a thumb of a thumbnail drawing of someone screaming or putting their hands up. Or if it's the actual dialogue in the script, um, in the comics. And usually I can get a sense from that. I can kind of see it in my mind. And then usually, once it's once I've Once I've drawn it, I will [00:51:30] show it to someone else just to be like, Does that make sense to you? And if I'm by myself, then I just do it and then hope that it will make sense to some people. There's some really bad comics that I have up on Rested House that I just think no one is going to understand. I'm so weird. But usually I check in with other people or just hope for the best. Usually, if I can visualise it, then it makes sense for you. What is the kind of best or most rewarding [00:52:00] part of the process? Um, putting it out online. I think I think it's kind of like before I start a comic. I'm like, Oh, I have to do a comic. I I've made this commitment to do it, and I feel like I don't want to do it. Then I start doing it, and it feels like I get quite lost in it. Like quite often I forget to eat or forget that I'm cold. And then once that I've turned blue or something, I'm like, Oh, no. [00:52:30] So I kind of get lost in the process, which is really nice as an escapism kind of thing. Um, but then once I've got it done, I always want to put it up immediately. But I always try and save it for the weekend, so it's consistently once a week. But that's my favourite part of putting it up and saying Hey, everyone, it's up now and then waiting to see if anyone reads. It was my favourite part. Is it important for you to have an [00:53:00] audience, or is it important to to be creating stuff? It wasn't important to begin with, it was just important. It wasn't important to have an audience to begin with. It was just important to put it up. Um, but I think that shifted. I think I. I underestimated who who would read it like I actually thought that it was just going to be Joe because I would force him to click on it Um and so I think more and more I've been relying on [00:53:30] people to that I can connect with. That feels like the most important part now of realising that there's lots of people out there who are weird, who are nerdy, who are gay, who are queer, who are trans or who are whatever way they relate to it. Um who like cats, That's the I think I think that's what I get out of it Now is less about creating it because I have to, because [00:54:00] I'm always gonna be creating comics. I think now whether I put them up online or not. But I think that actually putting it out online is because I like to feel connected to people and because I'm so like I'm quite socially awkward and shy in general that this is a nice, safe way to connect with people on my own terms. Hm. I'm thinking that you, uh from what you've been saying, you know very much into celebrating different [00:54:30] and celebrating. Um, the uniqueness of people. How do you try and convince people that that are that don't see the world in that way to actually kind of maybe take a step in that direction just to kind of people more open. What are ways that we can, you know, make people a bit more open? I think I rely on the comics themselves to do that in the way that I draw them. They're quite happy and easy [00:55:00] to look at. And and because the comics itself is a kind of subversive medium, I feel like I can get a lot of complex ideas across without people realising it. And it's quite sneaky, Um, that it looks it. It looks like a kind of kids drawing kind of childlike medium, and there's not too much lines or it's not heavy in the way that I draw it. So it looks easy to read. [00:55:30] And so suddenly people are realising that they're laughing with someone who likes Harry Potter, who happens to also be a queer trans man who's going out with a gender queer guy like, I think that that's how I do it, or that's what I try and do that, of course you know there is. There's needs to be a certain type of acceptance to begin with and that who's going to turn up on a comic blog for a Trans guy if they're not already [00:56:00] thinking about that stuff or kind of connected them with things. But I think in terms of accessibility, it's just that strength based stuff is important of that. Our difference is good because everyone feels a bit different. I think in in whatever way, because I'm not entirely convinced that there is anything that's completely normal about anyone. So I think if they can latch [00:56:30] on to any sort of difference and know that that's a good thing, then they'll relate. Yeah, and I think taking it from the strength space and from with the point of view of laughter as opposed to anger, even though anger is important in certain context, too, that's what I try and take it with. I've been watching lots of episodes of Ellen lately, and I've been watching the old nineties sitcom [00:57:00] and it's really it's really interesting to me how she uses humour in a really strange way and making fun of herself without making fun of other people. And I really relate to that kind of humour and I really like it that we can laugh at ourselves for being gay or for being queer, and that's a way of bringing people closer without laughing at someone because they're different from us or [00:57:30] that they're wrong in some way laughing at ourselves because we're all flawed or we're all awesome or we're all different or whatever.

IRN: 793
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089519
TITLE: Philip Patston profile
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VOICES: Philip Patston
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; Adelaide; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Be. Accessible; Benjamin Spock; Big Gay Out (Auckland); Brene Brown; Carlson School (Auckland); Cerebral palsy; Claire Ryan; Consenting Adult (1985); Disability Arts Festival; Diversityworks Trust; Human Rights Commission; Justin Dart; Kenneth Robinson; Mandy Toogood; Martin Luther King Jr; Mike King; Māori; New Zealand First; New Zealand Herald; Philip Patston; Pink Shirt Day; Pride parade; Pride parade (Auckland); Pulp Comedy (tv); Richard Prosser; Rosa Parks; Shortland Street (tv); Surrey; TED Talks; TalkLink Trust; United Kingdom; United States of America; Whina Cooper; Winston Churchill Memorial Trust Fellowship; Youthline; accessibility; acting; activism; arts; assistive technology; benefits; bullying; civil rights; comedy; coming out; commonality; community; confidence; counselling; creativity; difference; disability; diversity; education; entitlement; equality; family; gay; growing up; health; health system; hope; human rights; humour; identity; interpreter; labels; language; leaving home; mainstreaming; media; parents; performance; poetry; political correctness; politics; pornography; public speaking; relationships; school; sexual surrogate; sexuality; shame; sign language; so gay; social change; social entrepreneur; social justice; social work; support; travel; twins; uniqueness; vulnerability; writing
DATE: 13 February 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Philip talks about growing up, identity, comedy and uniqueness.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, I'm Philip Haxton. And I was born in England. Um, on the 25th of December 1967. Um, it was a political And, um, Mum went into labour six weeks early. Um, and I'm a twin. So there were [00:00:30] two of us struggling 48 hours to get out. Um, so it was quite traumatic. I remember it clearly laughing over me. Um, but I always say that, um I did all the work, and my brother just sat there and waged until the wave was clear and [00:01:00] then popped out to me. So I grew up in, um in Surrey, in England, which is sort of half now south of London. Um, and I guess after six months, um, my parents started noticing differences [00:01:30] between German and my development, and it was back in the days of I think it was Doctor Spock, where it was a real no no to compare babies development. So it was sort of a a time where even was saying babies develop differently, [00:02:00] and you shouldn't compare them to standard norms and that sort of thing. So it took quite a while for doctors to stop saying, Stop comparing your twin boys. And I think, um, I was diagnosed with P. The kind of somewhere between six months and a year of, [00:02:30] um, got the usual, Um, you know, he'll never walk. He'll never talk. You will never be able to be educated. Mum and Dad talk that slow bullshit. Um, that that kind of rhetoric comes from God. Because still, you know, I keep hearing this over and over again. [00:03:00] So as far as Mum and Dad were concerned, um, they decided to bring me up like my brother. Um, internally, I was just like my brother. I mean, so his, um I guess he was sort of like my my internal image of what my student [00:03:30] self was. Um, And it wasn't until we came to New Zealand and I was enrolled in a school called School in, um, which was a special school, which, when I look back, I'm not sure what quite was speaking about it. [00:04:00] Um, and I, I do actually remember the first day and arriving there and seeing all these kids in wheelchairs. And, um, you know, I, I was I used to walk with a trolley, but for some reason, I still haven't connected that to my [00:04:30] my identity. And, um, I just remember thinking, you know, Well, it wasn't around in those days, but what's the fuck? You know, um, why am I here? Why, why am I with with disabled kids? And, um so that was quite, um, an identity, um, [00:05:00] adjustment for me. And what what age were you then? Um, I think I had a 4. 5. I was very unlucky in that because there wasn't really a pre school back then. So we were in 1971. And, um, and think the priest would it hit me [00:05:30] or wasn't or something. And so I was very luckily, given six months more schooling. Which me? At home. Can you tell me why do you think your parents why they didn't accept what the the doctors were saying in terms of You know what? [00:06:00] You know what? What, what The possibilities are. So, um, I'm not really sure, and and I I sort of think probably they wouldn't be sure as to why I think I think intuitively they realised that well, they probably [00:06:30] seen me interacting and notice that while my physical development was different my my intellectual development was similar, and I'd probably say with superior, you know, um and so I think they just Yeah, they they [00:07:00] could see that probably the doctors were wrong and and maybe had a sense that, you know, if that was going to be the case, um, that they wouldn't, you know, they they they tackle that when it came to it. One of the reasons we came [00:07:30] to New Zealand was that in England, um, I would have had to go to a boarding school because there were no schools that were, um were sort of geared up to cater for disabled kids. So, um, in the area, So I would have had to have gone away to school, [00:08:00] and they didn't want that. So, um, so, yeah, I think they just were pretty keen to, you know, they've seen me interacting with my brother and realised that there was no reason that I shouldn't, you know, and do it. Well, I could [00:08:30] Can you recall or have you been told what the doctors were actually saying at the time in terms of, you know, um, what you'd be able to do what you wouldn't be able to do? Um, I think I don't think they knew. But I think there's still, you know, to this day there's a tendency with doctors to give the worst case scenario [00:09:00] so that people don't come back and say, Why didn't you tell me that? Yeah. So I I can from, uh I mean, from that fear based professional point of view, I can understand, Um what? You know what they're doing. They're mitigating the risk of, [00:09:30] um, creating expectations that are higher than they would want them to be. I mean, I think what's missing is a conversation with parents of the disabled kids about the possibilities rather than just saying, Well, this is the worst case scenario [00:10:00] because I think parents do believe doctors and then they they lose hope. And, you know, I cared about disabled kids is often. What I see in terms of development is not caused by their impairment or disability. [00:10:30] Um, it's caused by the way people interact with them because of that, you know? So so you sort of. If you block hope that your kid's gonna develop, then you're likely to not give as much attention and information and reward then, if you have that hope [00:11:00] Did your parents and did the family and yourself did was there much support kind of externally? No, I mean again, I say back then And we are looking at sort of 40 years ago. Um, yes. No, I mean, there was no paid support services. Um uh, and I'm not sure [00:11:30] whether there wasn't any or whether with mum and Dad just didn't know about them or or want them. Um, I know, as I grew up, um, you know, my my siblings had to put my shooting socks on the morning, and they hated doing it, and they made me age. And, you know, this kind [00:12:00] of sibling stuff, and, um And you know, actually, when I remember having a conversation with my brother, I think you know it. It sort of thing. Um, you know, I realised that that must have been difficult for you, but he said it was really difficult for us because there was [00:12:30] a sort of expectation that we would, um it was kind of like another chore, you know? So, um, I think you know it. It it worked it It probably would have been better if somebody who would pay who come in and allow me to have, [00:13:00] you know, more of an equal relationship with my siblings. But, yeah, we we got to. So hm? You mentioned before about having a memory? Um, about 4. 5 fiveish going to the school in Auckland. What is your earliest memory? Um, probably lying on my deck [00:13:30] in my room, having a tent and and kicking the door with my feet and just screaming. And I was probably three. It was in England. Um, yeah, why do I [00:14:00] do remember, um, my I I needed to help eating, and my mother and father used to have me. And I mean, there's two sort of early memories of one wanting the other person to pay me for some reason. And the other thing [00:14:30] I remember was, um and you probably the other way around. It was probably more. No, Dad, I want Mum to feed me because Dad would forget. And, um so every time I wanted a mouthful because we were polite English Children, I had to say, Please, may I have [00:15:00] a mouth every time? And so with dad, it was like, Please, please So, um, I learned to take really, really big bites of food so that I wouldn't have go out as much. So I mean, I'm not saying Dad [00:15:30] would or forgot. Can you describe what it's like to actually have to be in that position where you're saying, you know, Please give me a mouth full of food, you know, um, I, I mean, uh, I can only look back on it. I mean, at the time was No. I, [00:16:00] um I think when I look back on it, um, you know, uh, you know, I mean, part of me things, uh, you know, it it it could have been different. And, you know, I could have been able to be more [00:16:30] than to say, for God's sake, I mean, you know, and you know, and I think that the type of person I am now, um I think that part of you know, my persistence and motivation and, um, mhm enjoyment of challenging [00:17:00] myself has sort of come from growing up as one of four kids and not being given special treatment and not being and, you know, kind of the opposite where you know, it was, um You know, being [00:17:30] out. Can you describe yourself as a kid? As a child, I go, um I would probably quite a serious game, actually. I, I, um I'm a Capricorn I. I You know, [00:18:00] I sort of use astrology as just a interesting thing. I'm not fully on it, but they say Capricorn kind of grow down rather than grow up. And so a lot of kids, um, kids can be quite serious and quite sort of, um I guess, to To to sort of. I think I was quite aware. [00:18:30] And what I know is, as I get older, I become less serious and less. Um um probably a bit least principal. I think I was probably quite a principal kid. Even, you know, the young kid. I was pretty much, um you know, I had a very strong [00:19:00] sense of who I was. And, um, what was there and what wasn't there. So So, for example, at school, um, a I wasn't allowed to run, and I wasn't allowed to sit on my [00:19:30] knees like because it was bad. And the hips and, um, running and sitting between my my knees was, you know, running was easier than walking and it got me to where I wanted to go quicker. Um, and sitting like that was stable and [00:20:00] I could do stuff. And so, um, even though I had these physiotherapists screaming at me, stop running, you know, I'd slow down and wait to go away and then run, you know? So I guess, and I guess as well I was quite rebelling It, [00:20:30] um, from quite a young age, because that would have been sort of when I was 67. And so I even then I was making decisions about what I was being told to do and what worked for me and being [00:21:00] sort of disobedient and in a way that I guess at that stage was, you know, safe, you know? But I think as I got older, I got more and more over just being and got into trouble, for so surrounding the family. What kind of, [00:21:30] um, support did you guys have? I'm thinking like you're talking about physiotherapists. What what were the other people around the family that were helping? Um, my mother's mother, who divorced in her forties, uh, lived with us in a home home and then come through settings. So So she was all the boys, Um, part of the family. [00:22:00] And yeah, right up until I left home, She she lived with us. So I guess, um, you know, she was a bit of a built in babysitter pick us up from school. Um, apart from that, um, I you know, I look back now [00:22:30] and think, um and dad, Dad was in sales, and so he was, um, away like and so really, Mum did quite a sterling job. Um, you know, in hindsight of looking at the, you know, to begin with three kids under four, [00:23:00] uh, one of whom was dis disabled and pretty much doing that often single handedly. Um and, um yeah, and and so I, I guess the downside of that, you know, sort of again when I reflect on my childhood, it was quite it was quite ordered [00:23:30] and, um, and structured and scheduled, you know? And I guess that was mom's way of just making it work. Um, but, you know, I don't think I know they were kind of psychologists and stuff. I remember, um, [00:24:00] again. And this goes back to being quite a serious kid. I remember you know, this psychology gift that I would say once a year. And, um, I remember sort of thinking of her as a friend, you know? And we would have, um, these amazing [00:24:30] conversations about life and stuff like that, and, um, and sort of fast forwarding into my early teens. Um, there was a woman who sold breakers because, you know, back in the day, used to use, um, typewriters at school and France. No. [00:25:00] Remember having an amazing conversation with because she just left her husband and she she was saying to me, You know, um, if I if I ever get married again, which I probably won't, um I only make it like a contract. You know, it's gonna be three years or five years, and at the end of it, we're gonna sit down, [00:25:30] renegotiate and decide what what's gonna happen differently or whatever. And I remember as a 14 year old thinking, Yeah, that's of course. Why wouldn't you? Why would you say to someone I'll be in a relationship with you forever and ever, no matter what happened, you know? So So [00:26:00] it was interesting that I did have these kind of very adult relationship with with adults from my my childhood in 10 years. Hm. Now, a quote which I picked up from you is when labels are called for. I identify as gay, disabled white male. When did you realise that you were gay? [00:26:30] Well, again, it's probably It's probably quite funny because But, like the whole disabled thing, Um, I've I've always been a bit slow at sort of connecting my behaviour or or my sort of Yeah, my behaviour was a label. Um, [00:27:00] and I know that, like I, I was playing with boys from from through 15, 10 or 11. I remember, you know, one of my friends had a used to get playboys from somewhere. We used to look at girls, you know, look at playboys, naked women [00:27:30] and and fiddle with each other, You know, And and yet it wasn't until I was 19 and watched this movie called Consenting a Dog. Do you remember that? I found a clip of that on YouTube a while back, and I've never been able to get a copy of the the, um, [00:28:00] the movie. So, um, so I I'd watch that movie, and a couple of weeks before that I'd sort of had this guilty one night with this guy who lives in the Hamilton. And I remember a week too late watching the film, which was about a young guy coming [00:28:30] out and talking to his parents, parents and stuff like that. And I remember ringing this guy up and him saying and saying, Oh, God, I've just watched this movie and I realised I am gay and he said, Oh, well, that's good. Um, I started to get married. So he's also been friends [00:29:00] woman, and he decided to, um that he was straight. So I don't know what implication that has on me, um, that I turned a man straight. But, you know, um so even though right up to that time I've been sort of I had, you know, guide that [00:29:30] I had slept with it wasn't until um, I was 19 that I realised. Actually, I didn't want to be with you, and and I had had a couple of girlfriends and a very drunk. And one night with the, um, the staff member of a place [00:30:00] I used to live with that was scanned. And, um and you know, I remember being terrified with my girlfriends that I was gonna sleep with them and waking up after that one night with with the staff member and crawling out of bed and going to sleep on the floor because I kind [00:30:30] of woke up thinking, Oh, work part time, you know? Um, yes. So with that movie that, um, that sort of I I just remember going Oh, gosh. And you didn't, You know, a and a And overnight [00:31:00] my my identity changed and and I just spent six months just going and everyone and just saying, Oh, I just realise I'm gay and they kind of go, What do you mean? Just realise, Like, you were straight last week, Did you? Last time I told [00:31:30] you. What? You know what What's happening in the it and realise that, you know, that was me. And, um and it felt really easy to do that because, um, I'd always been different. So, um, you know, we I would hear people [00:32:00] saying how difficult it was to come out. Um, in my experience, both Well, actually, it's, you know, and so obviously different. Anyway, um, telling people different in another way isn't you know, it's it was actually easier than negotiating [00:32:30] relationships around being disabled in some way. I've heard an interview. Um, I think it was with Claire Ryan, um, talking about the idea of sexuality and disability and that, actually, for a lot of people, it's even hard to to to even have that conversation. Do you think that was a part of it that actually people seeing you just like, as [00:33:00] as Yeah, in a way. I mean, I remember sort of. I would, um I do kind of realised that by saying I was gay, you know, I was signalling one, and I do have a sexuality. And two, it's a sexuality [00:33:30] that I thought about and decided that it's not the the the normal or the norm. Um, but yeah, I think I I don't know. You know, my, my my thoughts about sexuality and disability have sort of changed over [00:34:00] over the last 20 years. Where probably, um you know, initially I would have agreed with the asexuality thing, but I think there's two sort of dynamics going on. One is that I think there's another extreme where people, [00:34:30] um, assume disabled people with sexuality is somehow deviant or you know, or, you know, the they don't get it for the death and over fit and that sort of thing. But I think the other thing that I've noticed and I've noticed this will be probably particularly, [00:35:00] um, is I think it's so much thinking that people are as sexual, but I think it's a, um, kind of internalised fear of what it might mean to be in a sexual relationship with someone who's disabled and and what [00:35:30] would be you know what, what responsibility that would take. And And, you know, what would other people think of you know of me than non disabled person being attracted to a disabled person? And you know what was my own parent thing? You know, I think [00:36:00] there's it's sort of quite easy to make the assumption, But I, I guess in the last three years, I've been pondering about whether it is more a projection than a belief that people are not sexual. Yeah, we started this part off with me talking about, [00:36:30] um, that quote about labels and I'm wondering, even though you just did, you know, you did label yourself in that in that document. I mean, what do you think about labels? Um, well, I mean I, I guess at the moment I'm on a bit of an anti label group. Um, and it's not that I think labelled, um inherently bad. Um, but I think we [00:37:00] I think they are a tool for awareness and for, um, you know, delivering political change, like human rights changes and and, you know, employment, equality and all that sort of thing. Um, but I think people get people get [00:37:30] hung up on them. And, um, I guess my point at the Ted talk I did recently is that we we we have to see the the light side of of labels, which is that thing of you know, it it it has changed a very homogenous [00:38:00] idea of society into a much more diverse idea. Um, hasn't, you know, hasn't been a curable? But but certainly we now know that there is, You know, there's more, um, difference around, um, but I think [00:38:30] the dark side of labels is that they, um they separate people. Um, they tend to, um, create entitlement. Um, and I think they they one dimensional people's identity [00:39:00] and particularly not the way other people see you, But the way you see yourself and, um And so I think that, you know, we're in a point now in society where we've got to start I doing the label because one [00:39:30] did they change it? Um and, you know, if we, for example, when I look at what game mean 20 years ago, when I came out, Um, that idea of gay has stuck with people that you know, my age, our age. Um, but [00:40:00] when I talked to young, uh, people and gay is is something different. I mean, even the whole thing about things being so gay and the, um you know, the the I guess the the controversy about that I [00:40:30] don't think young people are using the word gay to put down gay people. Um, it the word gave this change meaning for young people and in the same way as gay used to mean, you know, um, and now it come to mean, um, being slightly [00:41:00] and star and and and so I think, Yeah, I, I think if if if you've got this label that you prize and then the word the meaning of the word changes and it turns into something that [00:41:30] you don't agree with. Then you you sort of Yeah, you're stuck in a pretty conflicting space. Um, the other thing is that as I get older I, I don't even I mean, I call the gay as a short hand, but when I, I mean, I didn't go to the big [00:42:00] gay out this year. Um, I'm probably not going to go to the pride parade because there's something about being gay for me now that doesn't fit right. You know, I, I don't feel part of a gay community. Um, my community are people that [00:42:30] think that the world in, um, a more complex way than most people do and see the world for what it is. Um, And some sleep with men and some with women, and some were both. [00:43:00] And some, you know, are guys now, But they used to be girls and and vice versa. So I think all that that identity stuff around lab is changing Pretty, um, pretty quickly, actually. And and, um yeah, I. [00:43:30] I do think it becomes a little bit limiting. And underneath you, you know, I, I don't think I had to go out and say hi I'm Philip and I'm gay, you know, sort of if it's not, doesn't matter. So without using [00:44:00] the labels, how would you want to be described? Or how would you describe yourself? Well, I've been I, I guess I've been looking at this idea about how we find the risky and I've sort of started, I guess trying to, particularly among disabled people, because I think part [00:44:30] of the whole disability dis labelled label identity thing is that it's very negative. And so if I wake up every morning and, um, say I'm disabled, would you wake up and look at me and say it's disabled? Um, that's the reality that you know we're going to [00:45:00] create for ourselves. So, you know, I'm gonna get pissed off about all the things that I perceive, You know, me and you are gonna have a limited idea. Um, of who I am. You know what? What that means? Um, [00:45:30] it's like going up insane. I'm Philip and I'm unique in the way that I function. I'm unique, And I you know, my attraction, you know, blah, blah, blah. Whatever. You know, I'm unique in the way I work. I work from home and I don't have [00:46:00] to be at work at 8. 30 finish five. So there's lots of things about me that unique and, you know, and I I tested this on myself. But, you know, one day I woke up and thought, I'm going to wake up from now on and think I'm unique. [00:46:30] I'm gonna be unique experience and see what happened. And, you know, maybe it's self fulfilling property, but I think that one time I committed to that my life changed quite dramatically. Um, you know, I for example, I stopped, um, [00:47:00] working so much away from home. So I think people Well, if we don't have, um, let's have it here. Um, because if we don't, um, if it's not critical, I'm not gonna be there. Um and, you know, just doing that meant that I didn't have to go out into [00:47:30] an environment that often is quite limiting and irritating. And so I stopped, you know, putting my energy into being pissed off with that stuff and started enjoying working at home, realised that people who worked in offices loved [00:48:00] coming here because they got out of the office and it was a one you know. And so you know, from that I've sort of started saying, Well, let's redefine diversity from all these categorizations and labels and then trying to represent every category and label in order to be [00:48:30] diverse. And let's say that this is not something that you can create because it just it. I mean, the universe is diverse. You you can't make more of that. Um, you can recognise them more, more, But really, the way of recognising it is saying more how we unique [00:49:00] and how we become common or similar and that, you know, that that starts a much more interesting dialogue. Then you know I'm gay. What are you sort of thing? And the interesting thing is that when you start talking to people [00:49:30] about being unique and common, everyone starts. Who thinks that your labelling them of common starts saying, Oh, I'm unique too. And and that's true. We are. So if we are all unique, why are we, um why are we can each [00:50:00] other? Why are we why are we creating differences when in fact, what's common about us is that we're we're unique, you know, um, often I say, Well, yeah, you're in. You're need too. But I'm more unique than you are, you know? And then you get into, you know, a [00:50:30] concept. So what I felt like, hardly the serious part of it is that you get people like Richard Pro spouting all that bullshit did yesterday. And that is, to me a result of, um, the diversity lobby [00:51:00] focusing on labels and then people like, you know, New Zealand first page using that, um, in a way that, um, is discriminatory and inflammatory. So [00:51:30] yeah, I, I do think that, you know, we're we're human beings. We've got a bloody big brain. We've got a neocortex. But actually, the way we, um, relating to each other with this I like me or I know is quite, um it's quite [00:52:00] unevolved, and and I think we've got to, you know, up our game, and in that way, otherwise, we're not going to evolve in that. In some ways, I think we're going backwards. I should also just mention that the the the the pros comment was that, um I think he wrote that [00:52:30] Muslim men shouldn't be allowed on Western air aeroplanes. Um, between the ages of 18 and 35 because they, they are more likely to be deal with. So when you say you think we may be going backwards What? What? What do you mean? I've been reading a social researcher called Brune Brown, who taught [00:53:00] her who researches on shame and vulnerability and, you know, very briefly not giving you credit. What she's saying is that we're all vulnerable, but we tend to either hide our vulnerability or we label some PE people vulnerable [00:53:30] and others not vulnerable and that, um, a lot of their vulnerability comes from shame, which is about feeling, um, be who we are. And when you start looking through a shame lens, you can see [00:54:00] how much of the way that we relate to each other is shame based. You know, you see politicians shaming each other. You see parents shaming the kids. You see kids shaming the parents. You see teachers shaming. You know, the shame is pretty ripe. And our [00:54:30] culture in most cultures, um, and and what she says is that shame? Um, basically paralyses change. So people feel bad about who they are, they won't change. Um, my I guess the observation is that [00:55:00] civil rights movements on the whole tend to go the majority. Shame the minority. The minority gets sick of being shamed and in response starts shaming the majority for shaming them. Um, and [00:55:30] I think that's why civil rights take so long to happen and and don't really ever properly happen is that the shaming just gets projected back onto the other group. Um, if you look at some of the [00:56:00] sort of big named and social change like Martin Luther King, the park, you know Dame Finney, Cooper? Um, what you notice is that always then the message is this is about all of us. It's not about blaming, blaming, it's about how do we [00:56:30] work together? Um, going back to your question. Why do I think that we may be going backwards in terms of the social acceptance is that I think we're getting to the point where people like Richard Pro are feeling quite threatened and shamed about [00:57:00] being a white male. Um and so it's kind of up in the end. And so what we're seeing is sort of more scream, I think, um, attitudes against diversity, because people are not [00:57:30] having the conversation that we're all OK. Even white middle class men, Do you think, um, things like, uh, I've noticed over the last couple of years, or probably more than a couple of years Where, um if you say something or if you try and have a kind of conversation, um, it can so easily be shut down by somebody saying, Oh, that's just political correctness. That's political correctness. You know, [00:58:00] You you just you just and I. I did find that term pretty and find me in a situation where that many years and then my biggest question is What does it mean? You know, because I I think it's one of those terms that have been kind of coined as [00:58:30] exactly what you say. It's full of, uh, a way of and, um, I mean, if he needs, um, about being politically appropriate, perhaps or politically reasoned. But I think this you know something great. And something [00:59:00] has to be so again getting into this polarised I you, um and it's again. It's another form of shame. It's like, you know, behind that is shame on you. You're making me feel bad, you know, for shame on you if you're shaming me, so I'm [00:59:30] gonna shame you back and it's just, uh it's it's a no win conversation. It It seems to me that on one hand, one person is trying to have a conversation, and the other person is interpreting that as, um, as a as a threat or you were You were shaming me again. I mean, [01:00:00] and this is the thing I get philosophical and not wanting to to again getting into the blame game is Is that what I do? That is, It's that whole thing of, Oh, that just being politically correct has probably come out of that, um, thing that I talked about before The dark [01:00:30] side of this awareness and and human rights stuff around labelling is that is that sense of entitlement. So it's sort of like the conversation goes, You can't do that or you can't say that because I'm this label and you know, I've got human rights and [01:01:00] therefore you're wrong And you know, and so I think that, um and and I've been guilty of this in the past that you know what one of the the early stages of of realising that you're OK and you don't need to be Shane feel shame about who you are is that you tend to [01:01:30] get a bit evangelical and start, um, almost overcompensating by taking every little thing as a in a front or a you know, a criticism. So in a way, I think that probably civil rights movements have created [01:02:00] that comeback of political correctness by slightly over doing. But, you know, you have to give us there you go. So again, it's I mean, if we keep on going in the you know, I might, you know, No, I'm [01:02:30] your wrong way. Um, we will never move into another sense of how we can live together is human beings. We We're not going to agree. We're not always going to like [01:03:00] what one person does, but we don't have to. It's worth that. You know, I, I often say that, um, you know, I. I think it's quite OK to be judgmental. In fact, I'm probably one of the most judgmental people I know. Um, what [01:03:30] I don't do is verbalise it or act on it and you know, to me, it's about learning to have inside thoughts and outside thoughts and make sure that your inside thoughts don't come out [01:04:00] and be OK with going on. I think that's stupid. But don't don't say to the person and that you think ST him Go and say it to a tree or say it to somebody who agrees with you. Um and, you know, but But don't use it to to hurt people because that's what [01:04:30] we you know what we tend to do. We we think that, um we are entitled to express our judgement with I think we have a responsibility to be aware of our engagements and be responsible about what we do with them. [01:05:00] I want to take you back to, uh, earlier on you were talking about, um, going to the first school in New Zealand that you're at the, um, Carlson school. I think in and around the same time, you were mentioning about how, um, a lot of what happens in the disability world is that it's not necessarily disability, but it's about how people treat that that that child or that person [01:05:30] with a disability Can you talk to me about your own kind of growing up through the the school system and about, um, how people treated you and and what effect that had on you. I think generally I I was traded pretty well. But the reason for that, I think, was that I had a pretty good sense of self. [01:06:00] And I was pretty assertive and, you know, I, I I do quite a bit of work around bullying. So I've been involved with pink shoot and stuff like that for a few years, and I remember I remember when I left Carlton school, I was eight years old [01:06:30] and I went to Mount school and I was spent and I, I just knew that I had to be the one that went up kids and said the first thing, Yeah, nobody taught me that. Nobody told me to do it. It was just [01:07:00] in this innate understanding that I had that, you know, and I wouldn't have thought this back then. But now I realise that, um, bye. By initiating interaction, you you own it. You set the tone. Um, where [01:07:30] if you wait until somebody else initiates it. Um, if that person finds you threatening or, um, different, then how likely that the tone is gonna be negative? And then you're gonna have to either respond to that negativity. Try and change it around or you'll recreate and then [01:08:00] lose power in the relationship. So, um I mean, I did that with kids. I did that with teachers. And, um, every new teacher, I would just go to them and say hi, I'm Philip. Um, I use a typewriter. Um, it'll probably take you a couple of weeks to get used to the [01:08:30] click clack, but, um, you learn new, um, I may be slower than other people, and if I need anything I like so I I did own that interaction with my my teachers. So apart from [01:09:00] it is out there, um, early in the week and doing some work with peer mediators around conflict. And, um, it just came up that all the girls sit around in circles in the in the, um in the the programme. And we were we were [01:09:30] talking about, um we were actually talking about quantum physics and the way Leon had to rearrange clouds to be on different levels. And and that's the quantum physical it not of that. We all connect it because it would be in the universe. Um, move. Um, [01:10:00] so and we were saying it sort of a bit like an and that this sort of a group of girls sitting in circle, you'll probably want to, um but what? What I realised is that my that's what I did at school. I sat around with the girls, um, GOP and while the boys sat in the line and didn't look at each [01:10:30] other or, um and apart from I think it was at primary school, a few sort of petty girl. I'm not going to be your friend anymore than, um I never experienced bullying. Um, I had really good relationships [01:11:00] with good teachers. They were all good. Um, but and and funnily enough, a couple of them were going, and I could have continued that relationship when I left school. Um, so, yeah, I mean, I really feel that the only [01:11:30] the only bad it seemed to go was my last year when, um, I was I actually left home before I left school because I was really rebellious. So So, you know, from about four came, you know, cigarettes and drinking and [01:12:00] arguing with my parents. And, um, there there was a a resident place around the corner, and I just said one day, um, to mum and Dad. This this working, Um, I assume you're not gonna move, so I will. And you know, I I'm not [01:12:30] happy. You're not happy. Um, there's somewhere I can go just around the corner. It's supervised. Um, So I ended up leaving home and halfway through my thing for me, and it was really difficult. Been living as an adult and going to school. And, [01:13:00] um so I you know, I give my my obedience at school to Greece. So I remember getting to an accounting class and 20 minutes late and then my account teacher saying, If you're not prepared to be on time, you might as well turn around and not [01:13:30] come back. So I sort of sat there, thought about it, turned around and left the class. The whole class class applauded. And the teacher who was one bag then want to expel me. And luckily, somebody had said, Look, he's left home, [01:14:00] You know, I've been in the troubles student. That's good. Something. Um, yeah. So, I mean, apart from that last year was would have been difficult for any kid. Um, schools. OK, One of the things that strikes me. Is that that whole idea [01:14:30] about owning conversations? So, you know, instigating a conversation, Um, I think is really fantastic advice, but what happens if you're in a situation where, um, you don't feel you have that power? I mean, for a lot of people, they they would feel powerless. I mean, I think this is where our bullying strategy, if we do have one, is [01:15:00] I had different thoughts about the way we should be tackling bullying. Um, at the moment, we see it as a kids issue, and we tend to focus all their energy on the the were allowed to call the trigger of and very little [01:15:30] in into the the target of bullying. Um, so for me, first of all, I think we've got to get real and say bullying is an adult issue that we live in, a society that uses bullying to, um to achieve its things. [01:16:00] And if you look at every institution, you know, politics, justice, education, you know, family mhm. In the on the whole, bullying is used as a strategy to get what you want. Um, and I think there's very little, [01:16:30] um, willingness on the part of adults to say. Actually, if we don't stop using bullying as a way of getting what we want, we can expect kids to not see that, and I emulate it. [01:17:00] So I think that's the first, um, thing we need to do differently. I think the second thing is that we need to be working much more kids who are the target of bullying and teaching them strategies to respond to either respond to, um, negative [01:17:30] power need or to learn how to initiate positive work. And the the last thing I think is that we've got to come back to diversity is that most bullying is the result of, you know, either one You know, [01:18:00] two kids or going for kids. Seeing another kid is different in some way, and my model of working with a bullying dynamic is getting people who need just use people now to see what their similarities [01:18:30] in that and to, uh, you know, to understand that most people have so some commonality in what they're trying to do or how they feel about themselves or what kind of experience [01:19:00] they've had in the past. And I think if we were, you know, I wrote a blog and about, You know, if you work with people separately to sort of do a bit more expiration of who am I and then bring people together to share [01:19:30] who they are with each other. Um, you know, maybe I'm being naive and I ate, but I think we would see bullying dynamics. Listen. Yeah. And I guess the last thing is teaching witnesses to bullying how to intervene in [01:20:00] a constructive way, which is really facilitating that stuff or redirecting or or or asking questions. What's going on here? Hearing you speak? You know, I, I get this real sense of self and confidence. And it sounds like that you had that right from an early age. Has it ever kind of [01:20:30] lessened? Have you ever felt, uh I'm not quite sure who I am? Or have you always been really strong in in in in that I've always been quite aware. I mean, I, I trained the youth line cos when I was 19. Um, and that's how my parents I know I was gay because in a confident [01:21:00] you own group, a friend of a friend of my brothers, um, went off and told the friend. Give what? Jeremy's twin brothers? Um, slightly unethical. But, um, so, I mean, I did a lot of work. [01:21:30] Probably between 19 and 25 on self awareness. Um, some. There was some undoing of family stuff around, not just around disability, but but just about who? Who I was because, you know, having been [01:22:00] sort of in that rebellious sort of long game with my parents for, you know, probably since I was 14 or 15 and that that kind of went on into my twenties. Um, you know, there there was, uh, for me, there was, uh, I, I guess not [01:22:30] so much a sense of not being confident about who I was, but but kind of working out how it came to be that I was so different to my parents in particular. But also, in some respects, at that time, quite different to my brother and [01:23:00] and my youngest sister, my my older youngest, Um, I've got a sister who is 10 years younger, so and with that, he always got on really well. And I think, um, you know, and in some ways, um, we both slightly, you know, different than the with the family. You know, she because [01:23:30] she was sort of teeny younger. And and maybe because and me principally Because I think, um, going to a coed school is, And also in the school where my jeremy Wendy went to Auckland grammar and, um, girl. [01:24:00] And I think I just just from being in that mixed schooling environment in a lot of socioeconomic, um, environment as well as being who I was, um, just gave me a completely different value. [01:24:30] Um, and so I suppose you know, going back to that Shane thing, Um, I had to work through, um my, um What Brown talked about my shame web. And and that was very much my my parents. And at the time, my siblings, [01:25:00] um, whose value base was quite different. So So, um so, yeah, I. I think it's been more about if I had that doubt. It's not about who I am, but it's about, um, how to be in relationship with [01:25:30] people who light family who are close but who are different from no, you know, no fault of their own. But But, you know, I I've had a very different life experience. I know who they put a lot of the things that you've been talking about are things [01:26:00] about the interconnectedness of people with each other and and and wider kind of, um, ideas. Where does that come from? Where where you're actually looking outward and you're you're looking about how things connect with because a lot of people don't necessarily do that. Uh, two years. So we training. And actually, that's another. That's another [01:26:30] example of feeling, um, a lack of confidence. So I trained. I did the Epson Teachers College social work course in, I think 1991. Um and it was quite well, sort of quite [01:27:00] well known, being quite radical. So they were 40 20 of whom were Maori, 10 Pacific and 10. So it was quite an immersive experience and highly political and highly sort of driven by radical social action theory. And, you know, [01:27:30] by using a bi cultural immersion, um, model for the programme. Um, and even though, um, I during the programme, I felt, you know, I felt really comfortable in that sort of, you know, being in the minority, we a lot of my [01:28:00] my tutorial group were just wigged out about. It's not fair. It's not fair, you know? And I was like, chill out. You know, 32 years when we're studying social, you know, dynamics get used to it. Stop saying that. [01:28:30] Um, even though I felt quite comfortable with that, um what it what it did, Was it It really did my idea of the world upside down and well, probably inside out is more correct me. Um, because it it reframed all the [01:29:00] typical you know, Maori, um, and, you know, lower educated low employee, because their fault, you know. And so I went I went through Probably, I think, six months to a year where I mean, I remember I've been, And so for the situation and and something [01:29:30] social, political, political will come up. And I would go into this thing of thinking Shit. Um, I actually don't know how to respond to this, because what I would have said two years ago I know is not true anymore. [01:30:00] Um, but I haven't quite integrated my new truth, so that that was quite, um that was quite a tough time. Just, you know, just again, not not so much My well, yeah, Not so much. [01:30:30] My sense of self But But as you say, that that that sense of how we connect with each other and how strong, um, through patriarchal ideology has strong an influence that has or honour and and how subconscious [01:31:00] it is, you know, And, um and how difficult it is to sort of, Well, you know, once once, you know, you can't not know. And so, yeah, you you have to work out a new way of saying Well, actually, that's not quite how [01:31:30] it works. Um, and I wrote a book in that that that works. Um, funnily enough, I just even 20 years later, I began put into music and, you know, and and fifth not looking back [01:32:00] at the woods and seeing them as the the embryonic stage of what I'm doing now, 20 years later, around the same time, you also did a Churchill fellowship. Can can you tell me about that? Yeah, I did think about that because I read the report that I wrote [01:32:30] couple of years ago, and and again, I thought, Shit, I was again starting to say these things about diversity and society back then. So, um, one of my social work lecturers sort of encouraged me to, um, apply to [01:33:00] to look at technology for people that, um, don't use verbal language. Um, and then he he was a bit of a of the computers, you know, which were really computers. But, um, and I thought, though, on the trust [01:33:30] of a a organisation called, which is still going, um, that struggle was working in the area of, um, what's called a augmentative and alternative communication. So it's been two months in the states, um, freaked [01:34:00] out and tear by this I was gonna get shock or even with the the my friend Alan, who travelled with me would go out and get shock. Um, bit of culture shock. Um, so I met with probably about 10 of the leading [01:34:30] disability at in the States. Um, including, you know, his name dropping. This guy called Justin who worked for the president who must been George Bush. First one, um, and he'd been involved with the, um [01:35:00] the Americans who were disabilities act. So it just when I was in and I met all the people that used equipment, um, to speak and what what was. And also I met with speech therapists and people that prescribed the equipment [01:35:30] and it was interesting because the professionals were staying. Oh, this technology is wonderful and gives people so much freedom and then blah, blah, blah. Um, and they were prescribing this. And so it was through them that people got these devices, [01:36:00] but the people themselves using them were saying things like, Well, actually, um, they're really slow and limited. Um, I go to shop and say something on my device, and people don't realise that it's [01:36:30] me talking, so they just look at the device and go, Oh, wow, that device just caught. And so dismiss completely that this was the person voice. Um, and the third thing that I found most interesting and again it's about human connectedness is that most people say that [01:37:00] given the choice, they arrive love, have access to a person that knew them well enough to interpret and speak on their behalf. So So there was this real, you know, um, fragmented [01:37:30] between what? Users of the super saying and what the people that had the power to to it it funds with with a So I guess it was sort of my you know, a after him and done social work training, and I was never interested [01:38:00] in through the the justice or or welfare social work. I was always more interested in the kind of sociopolitical social change. But so it was just the first sort of an experience of applying what I've learned at [01:38:30] at social work school about the the paradigms that are often quite well, they're not invisible, but they're not trained by a lot of people. How did the Churchill Fellowship change you If if if at all, um, didn't change me. [01:39:00] I mean, it gave me a bit of a taste for travelling. Um, and, you know, while while while I sort of half that I was in the state of fear of my life, I mean, um, I was just fascinated by being in a different country and and, um particularly in America, [01:39:30] because it was was so in some ways, while while it was unfamiliar, it was quite familiar because we get so much media and I couldn't run down, down and, God, the flooding have been moving. You know, it's like I know what the pistons can say. Um [01:40:00] um, whereas we were like, we were like aliens to Americans and know when no one knew when New Zealand was and, you know, and people thought it was near England or they thought it was Australia. That visual stuff? Um, [01:40:30] I think probably. And it gave me a bit of discipline. I'd write something at the end of it, and it it gave me some confidence. And I came back and applied for a job at the Human Rights Commission, and and I probably Well, [01:41:00] no, I I'm not sure whether or not I would have done that had I not done that fellowship and come out with something that I felt was kind of me and and the world, um, in in different ways. And, you know, it was probably my first, you know, Might be real. [01:41:30] Hm? Stages thing. I mean, you know, I think probably when Winston Churchill probably have more. I mean, you probably know this. I mean, they probably have more perceived value than then. They Yeah, I sort of felt like, Yeah, [01:42:00] I know when I talk to a few people wrote it up and everyone said, Wow, you could have went due to a village. He must say, Really, the cool. Um but yeah, I mean, people do go well, So it was my big break. The nineties [01:42:30] were actually full of wow factor for you because, I mean, this is the the nineties is when you did the comedy. You're on Shortland Street. So mainstream TV at seven o'clock at night for the whole three weeks or three weeks. But tell me about, um, getting more into that kind of public limelight and also kind of going from a very serious kid to being doing stand up comedy. Yeah, it was. I know now [01:43:00] that I don't do it. It was, like quite a quite a weird part of my life. I mean, you know, as I always say, I, I kind of fell into it. It wasn't something that I aspired to do. I didn't You know? I don't know. The boy want to be a stand up comic? I? [01:43:30] I didn't even, you know, decide halfway through working at the commission that I wanted to be the comedian. Um, I was bored at the commission and I felt like what I was doing very left brain and I for I need to do something creative. And so [01:44:00] I found this comedy course, which was short and cheap, just like me. 21. Um, I think and it was I think it was five weeks, twice a week. And at the end of it, we, um we did, um, a gig [01:44:30] up at Kenny O'Brien, which was a comedy spot of the day. And, you know, I had to be pulled up 30 days, and I mean one day, and somebody brought me when I was up up there and, you know, having to go and stay, you know, having been dropped down. [01:45:00] Um, but yeah, it it was a very weird same because I guess I've been using humour. Um, I had a training role for a bit at the commission, and I had done root shops previously, and I'd use humour in those. And I [01:45:30] remember again as a child and teenager growing up that I would use humour is a way of, uh, I, I guess. Keep him most people to see that I was intelligent. I mean, the really dumb people didn't get the job, so it didn't work, [01:46:00] but, um, but it was a tool that I'd always used to, you know, But, you know made people feel comfortable, made people realise that I wasn't stupid and that sort of thing. So my first gig and I I just dread to think what it was like because, you know, I mean, in the first [01:46:30] pulp comedy, um, then in the morning to, um But, I mean, it just I just remember going on stage. My first line was I live in Venda and kind of And I knew that, like [01:47:00] I said that because I knew that people were probably going to think I was gonna refuse to be in a wheelchair. And it just it got this huge laugh that I just had and, um and yeah, I just It worked. And so I got asked back [01:47:30] to do more, um, rookie nights. Then I sort of went up to the pro nights, got paid 20 bucks. Um, and then I make, uh, Mandy and she you know, um, I think you're good. Do you want to be on TV? Don't say no, because [01:48:00] you took lots of books. You take lots of boxes on the New Zealand on here for no. So you, um and it it just you know, uh, it just kind of. Well, it's one of those things that just happened. And, um, [01:48:30] it it was a John Lennon moment. You know, life is what happened where he was making other plans, you know? So I had this idea. I was gonna be a, you know, human rights act, blah, blah. And I ended up actually having to leave the commission partly because they were getting nervous [01:49:00] that my profile was getting too high and, you know, and they were almost asking me to run by what I was gonna say and gig and that sort of thing. So I, I just thought, No, I'm sick of that. Come up. Um, so, yeah, And then Shortland Street was [01:49:30] again a bit of a bit of a excellent, Um funnily enough, the the the character I played was modelled on a friend of mine and was written by a friend of hers. That, um, was a story line for Jordan. And he auditioned [01:50:00] for the part as well and was less than impressed that that I got the part and he he didn't, um and I actually, you know, I've been trying to I've gotten some VHS footage somewhere that I need to get digitised. But I remember thinking the [01:50:30] character was really cool, like because he was a businessman. Um, he was a bit of a but did you know they were brave enough for him to being Waly boyfriend? Um, even though we only ever can noodled which we never [01:51:00] quite worked out what canoodling means. And the director just said, I know to look at each other. Um, and it it looks weird. And for a while, you know, I'm in the SP QR [01:51:30] and the school sat down next to me, and we both were turned around at the same time and she screamed and said, Oh, you go, you know, and it's just like, Whoa, that bizarre. Um, and I went through a bit of a stage of, um I [01:52:00] guess being recognised quite a lot. And, um, there were days when I wouldn't go out because I couldn't be both looking good. Um, but it it was fun, and I got sick of it, and it was very, um, [01:52:30] the comedy thing particularly. I found with the opposite of respect and human rights and, you know, treating people decently and I would have to go on after Mike, Can you be making homophobic jokes and, you know, and [01:53:00] and sort of win the crowd back and stuff like that and in in some ways, I think it made me quite resilient. And it probably made me get over myself a bit in terms of being a, you know, a human rights at this [01:53:30] because, um, I did get the the the whole, um, the whole dilemma of censorship and, you know, and sort of, um, the right of artists to free speech and that sort of thing. So So why are [01:54:00] you I felt a front. I also felt well, you know, where where do you draw the line? If I start saying to Mike and you can't make gay jokes because I'm gay, um, you know, the once you begin having those conversations, that's the slippy [01:54:30] and who, well, who you know who have the right to say in it. So I think it taught me to be slightly less sincere. And, um, what I realised quickly is that it it would would have been easier, quite easy for me to use being a comedian [01:55:00] to educate people about human rights and discrimination. But What I realised is that when I if I went on stage with that intention, um, people felt they've been there to be entertained, not be lectured about how the world should be. Um, [01:55:30] if people were educated as a result, that was great. But I couldn't use comedy as, um, a channel to to push a political agenda. Or if I did, it had to be really Well, um, well, um [01:56:00] what? What? What I like about what I do now is that I talk about serious stuff in a humorous way, and, um and that works really well because people get something that if they were to be so it's a it's an add on. Um, So I think [01:56:30] And, you know, I wrote, um, a blog up to the where I said in a way that 20 minutes with the most, like, every aspect of my life from, you know, growing up and, you know, being a being interested [01:57:00] society and, you know, idea about the then how we read as well as being able to bring that together into an entertaining 20 minute talk in the two thousands. You did a lot of public speaking. Um both nationally and internationally. How were you received in different countries? Was it similar, [01:57:30] or was it different in terms of your reception, a lot of what I did have to say was around, um disability art and a little bit in Australia around and queer Arts and with the the in in life. Um, and [01:58:00] I guess England and Australia were were probably where I felt most comfortable and I, I think the the mind the, um, was the most similar to New Zealand. Um, you know, [01:58:30] being being in England was great. I mean, it was like I. I didn't go back to be and to to go back to where I was born and go Oh, shit. Like this is why I like baked beans. Because everything's bloody. So for baked beans, you know, and kind of going on [01:59:00] a on that the English You all right there, over here? Um, and really enjoyed the sort of awareness of disability activism. Um, the social model of disability, which, [01:59:30] you know, 10 years ago, I subscribed to the social model disease society, disabled people, um, rather than people with impairments are as normal. Um And so it was really cool to be working with and talking with, um, people that really [02:00:00] got that and were really quiet, quite connected in a way that we're not in New Zealand, because we're such a small population, um, and Australia. I mostly was in Adelaide, and there's something wonderful about Adelaide where there's quite a bit of little [02:00:30] queer, disabled, freakish art scene. Um, which it's really includes that, um, And again, I think it's partly not sure what the population is. It's probably about the same or maybe a bit smaller. Um, but I think because it such it has such a conservative, [02:01:00] um, element. There's this little sub of underbelly that, um, that I've never experienced anywhere else in the world, actually. Um, so So again, I I performed and sort of spoke at forums and stuff like that over there, um, America [02:01:30] doing comedy a few times. Hard work. Um, you know, they just the humour is different. I think I Yeah, just different. And, you know, I remember talking at a, um a conference [02:02:00] on spirituality with Clare, and we were just we were just sort of amazed that they contributed to them and, um, yeah, just just the the the the narrow thinking of the people we know with the competence on sexuality and disability. And [02:02:30] we were we were talking about sex surrogates and people were getting up and leaving the room. And, you know, So, um and probably the worst experience or the most weird was speaking in Belgium to a group of French people [02:03:00] having enough French. So I study it up to stage one to know basically what people were saying but not being able to speak it and doing this talk with this woman, rely and hearing her say completely different [02:03:30] stuff that I would say and thinking, My God, you were editing you. It was and she wasn't a trained interpreter, but it was It was just very bizarre thing stopping, listening to her faith and in French and thinking. But yeah, I mean, it made me think about, for example, [02:04:00] people that use sign language interpreters and and that sort of thing and and how, How one how important it is for that, um, for that stuff to be done well and and you know, there's a the the thing of respect to actually resource that which you know again. I don't [02:04:30] think we do that. Well, um, in New Zealand with finding work. Um, but I guess here it did sort of take me back to that whole thing about people that can't they can use devices or do use people to to communicate on their behalf. And and Yeah, it is. It is like a really, um [02:05:00] it's and trust. And, um and I thought I and let him go, I guess on the other. And then if I had stopped and said I didn't say that, You know, I don't think you would have interpreted it [02:05:30] like this in the two thousands. You were also kind of, um, solidifying the the the whole kind of social change maker type things, like with diversity works the trust. Can you Can you talk to me about that? Well, um I can, um, something that almost happened [02:06:00] in some ways. Not without me, but not as a result of great planning. And I remember talking to, um or hearing see Ken Robbins and say that you know, people always say, you know, did you plan to get what to get to where you are now? And he said no I I've [02:06:30] never made a plan or goal in my life. You know, I've just things have prevented themselves, and I've gone yes or no. And, you know, and I think in some ways, that's been the same for me. So So when I left the commission in 98 I guess the the only [02:07:00] sort of impacting decision I made which could be a goal was that, um I decided not to go back on to a benefit. So I went from earning, I think, about 800 bucks a week to earning nothing over night, which was incredibly [02:07:30] scary, but incredibly exhilarating and challenging, you know? And, you know, I what I've seen and I've heard other people say that that's kind of a test of the good stuff in life to be shit scared and excited at the same time, you're probably doing the right [02:08:00] thing or a right thing. Um and so I guess for the first three years, um, you know, I would literally wake up on Monday morning and think shit if I don't get a woot shot this way to do a work. And, um, at that point, I would charge, you [02:08:30] know, 100 and 50 bucks to do a half day. Um, if I don't get one or two that we I didn't know what I how I pay the rent stuff. And I sort of I've always had the thing with money that I believe that it will be there when I need it, and [02:09:00] and And it always has been. And and it was in that time, so I would just get a phone call from someone. So can you come and do a work? So, um, never been good at promoting myself. Hated filling myself. Um went to a couple of business coaches [02:09:30] who just kind of stared at me blankly and said, I don't know what you do, but you seem to be doing OK, so just keep doing what you're doing, and they'd run me out the door. Um, and I, I guess just over time it's changed, you know? I think, [02:10:00] um, having the the entertainment stuff, the the speaking, the running job, doing the writing, um, having that portfolio skills again, I'm quite sort of well documented. That that's a good way to be self-employed. Um [02:10:30] and you know, for six years, um, it's It's quite funny because the doing pulp comedy like years and I was like it would roll around and we get and we get about two grand and I was like, Wow, that's such a lot of money, you know? And it was It was sort of like, [02:11:00] Ah, you know, I'll get round to pop comedy And then there'll be 10 weeks where I won't need to think too much about getting work. Um, and I ca I can't remember. I think, uh, what what happened was in 1995 I bought some artists [02:11:30] from Canada, America and the UK, which were really my mate that I met at other festivals. And we ran a one week disability arts festival down at down the road. And, um, we teamed up with, um, another guy that [02:12:00] had a charitable trust and as often that kind of thing does, it all went shit and and we did. The festival was great, but, um, it didn't work using somebody else's umbrella. So, um, a couple of things and I just decided to start up the [02:12:30] boot works class really as a vehicle to get funding from philanthropic and government agencies, which you can't do with a business, which again is quite a, um, a limiting thing in New Zealand that we have this [02:13:00] notion that, um, a a profit making organisation can't be funded to do anything that's socially, um, for the good. But, you know, businesses that are almost deliberately doing harm can get hundreds of $1000 [02:13:30] of business R and D funding And that sort of but get on today. So, um, so we set that up, and it's just been travelling along, um, and again then that opportunity thing of mainly, um, things [02:14:00] coming to us from us necessarily going out to to do things we did. We tried to, um, do, um, another bigger the symposium type thing. Um, in 9, 2009, and it was, um [02:14:30] it was around the time the financial crisis believe it was good. And, um, we didn't get a whole lot of funding. We've been not promise but lead to believe that we would get um, and we actually ended up accidentally on the front page of the hero as [02:15:00] a victim of the the the financial crisis, which was a bit embarrassing because of the thunder, but with those sort of kind of, you know, all public, good public. So we had to scale a full day international event to be held at Sky [02:15:30] City down to a one day event in which was kind of sad. But, you know, it was just how it was. And and I again I blogged about it being like, um, stopping a 10 tonne crack on ice because literally, we had [02:16:00] hundreds of people, um, all around the world waiting for the event, and we had to put it at the last minute. And, you know, we had people saying they were going to sue us because they bought nonrefundable tickets, plane tickets and stuff. So we had to go back and say politely, [02:16:30] You're an international touring company. Why would you buy a nonrefundable ticket? You know, um, and so again, that that that was great learning in terms of how you manage a, you know, a failure and come out but looking. OK, [02:17:00] um, and we managed to make it into an online project, and and it was it was good, I think, um, through through that I was invited to do a a one year, um, creative Rene programme through the arts through new [02:17:30] and at the same time begin a three year social entrepreneur Fellowship. So, um, it was sort of like it was a bit like the 1999 thing of pulp comedy in Shortland Street. Suddenly it was just, you know, suddenly I was doing these two programmes [02:18:00] one looking at creativity and one looking at social change and And what? What they've ended up given me with this, Um I guess insight that actually C create creative innovation is always, um [02:18:30] it always happens around the social, um or or a feeling of of the need to create some sort of social change or or some sort of social awareness And similarly social innovation is in itself highly creative. And And, um [02:19:00] so I guess through that three year period, um, I got really interested in working in spaces that combine social change, creativity and diversity in some way, and that that's where we are the the trust now. [02:19:30] So we project based and all our, uh, they they kind of have to at least two and hopefully three elements of the diversity create to pretend change. And we've recently begun partnering with other organisations to be [02:20:00] an umbrella so that people can run projects but not to set up or the infrastructure of a charitable organisation. So part of my time is, rather than that or just holding it. I don't know if I'm around it. Um and I also work for [02:20:30] be accessible to the social change enterprise, looking at accessibility from the wider perspective. So raising awareness that you know, people with disability parents are praying older people all need [02:21:00] access. So when you look at that from a tourism point of view or even just, uh, economic point of view, acceptability is you know, we we've, um, dubbed it the the yellow dollar, Um, sort of after the pink dollar, because the bee, the bee accessible [02:21:30] brand, is yellow but really saying to businesses, by being accessible or at least telling people what to expect. Um, when they come to your store or ring your call centre or use your website by letting people know what to speak, you're more likely to generate business [02:22:00] from that that market segment and um within that we run a leadership programme. So I co directed with Lucy, who is run in New Zealand. Um, and between those two, that's four of mine. So I've [02:22:30] gone from that sort of stable human rights commission. Then through the Oh, my God, Will I eat two in the last couple of years ago? Yeah. I will eat quite well, I think. OK?

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TITLE: Ruth Busch profile
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VOICES: Ruth Busch
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1950s; 1990s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Bitches Witches and Dykes (magazine); Broadsheet (magazine); Canada; Czechoslovakia; Domestic Violence Act (1995); Germany; Goucher College; Hamilton; Judaism; Lesbians Inside the System (LIS); Leslie Feinberg; Life of Pi; Māori; New York City; Patu! (film); Quilter case (1996); Robin Morgan; Ruth Busch; Sharon Kowalski; Silvia Cartwright; Springbok rugby tour (1981); The Holocaust; United States of America; University of Waikato; Vancouver; World War 1; World War 2; abuse; activism; adoption; ageing; children; civil rights; civil unions; coming out; counselling; courts; domestic violence; dyke; education; elder issues; family; feminism; grandparents; growing up; homophobia; homosexual law reform; identity; immigration; justice; law; lesbian; marriage; older age; parents; rape; relationships; stroke; suicide; violence; women
DATE: 10 February 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: OK, Well, I was born in the Bronx, New York, in 1944 and, uh, it was kind of an out of it doesn't exist anymore, that area, because it was a sort of Jewish neighbourhood. Um, I've read recently that one out of every two people in the Bronx at the time I was growing up was Jewish. And it was like that. Um uh, like all the Jewish holidays were observed and [00:00:30] you couldn't buy bread for Passover. You know, all the storekeepers were Jewish. I mean, the other the non Jews just had to eat Jewish, that's all. And, uh, and it made for interesting things with the few non Jews like we used to play monopoly for the best religion. Right? And things like that. You know, there were high stakes in the world, but, um yeah, and so they were a group of survivors of the Holocaust. And, um, I was the American [00:01:00] born one in my family. Uh, my brothers had been born in Europe and brought with my mother, um, in December 1938. And, uh, but then everyone in their family, um, all my grandparents and, uh, you know, aunts and uncles and people. I don't even know their names. They were all murdered at Auschwitz. And, uh, I think that had a certain kind of, uh, um, [00:01:30] significant impact on my life. Firstly, I grew up with people who just you They lived life and death all the time, every second of their lives. You just had to When they said go, you had to go. And so if you tended to pause and say, Well, I don't know, this doesn't make much sense to me. It was not an allowable statement. You just had to listen, and, uh, it it was very there was a tremendous amount of anxiety. Uh, nobody [00:02:00] helped them, you know, they just had to live with those losses. And, uh, we were the only non consequential targets that they could take that out on, Um, all that anger, uh, that they couldn't get in touch with. I mean, that could have worked and earned money and, uh, feed their family blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, So it was an interesting place to grow up. The, [00:02:30] uh I have two brothers, one of whom, uh, they were born in Europe, and, uh, definitely that seared their consciousness. Especially, um, my brother C, who's the middle one, who just, you know, he's a kind of high achieving sociopath. Um, I say that endearing way. I've gotten to like him over [00:03:00] time, but I still don't trust him when we're both drunk in a room together. So, uh, and maybe everybody has a brother like that or somebody. He, uh you know, I grew up in a really violent home, And one of the things that I've done in New Zealand, I think, you know, is to become a comedian on legal issues and, uh, combine a kind of New York humour with, uh, my [00:03:30] anger at what happens in the legal system, especially for women and gays. And, um so there's a lot about my family that has to do with that. My, um my brother, he, uh we grew up with the question. Why didn't the Jews fight back? Everyone else in the world would have done it. We didn't do it. What the fuck is wrong with us? So my brother decided he would answer that question, you know, by [00:04:00] by putting everybody in their place. And the trouble is as the youngest in the family. He had to perfect some of his tactics before he took it to the street. And, uh, you know, I was there and again as a totally consequence free target of, uh, whatever he was trying to learn that week. So, yeah, there was a lot of that, Kind of, uh, I was saying so I've worked on domestic [00:04:30] violence issues, like, uh, I was interested in them, you know? And one time I was getting an award, and there were all these judges there and everything, and it brings out the worst of me. I mean, I came a dog to be a juvenile delinquent. You know, I because I took that issue, You know, my mother believed we all grew up with binaries. Heart called black and white in my family was Jewish, not Jewish. You know, that was the first question, you know, Jewish. Not Jewish anyway, But, [00:05:00] uh, she never questioned male female, you know, and I just took it to a new height. You know, like, uh um, I went beyond her binaries, and, uh, she I my first lover was a doctor, but not Jewish and woman. And you know, I said, but you always want to be to have a doctor, you know? But really, there was she, uh, Well, anyway, it was funny just to do that, but, uh, one time I was getting [00:05:30] this award for domestic violence, something or other. And, uh, there were all of these, really, you know, kind of judges, etcetera where they are. And it, as I said, it brings out the word to me, and, uh, I, uh I got up, and it's sort of like they they do this. It's like a eulogy, you know? So in some ways, you do have to fight back because you think you're dead, right? And at some point, I said, uh, [00:06:00] you know, I feel just like Grace Kelly, you know, winning for the country. Girl. I, uh, want to give my acceptance speech. Every woman has an acceptance speech. I just wanna thank my father, who knocked me around about a million times and gave me an interest in this topic. You know, like Spielberg. He got a brownie hawk eye when he was 11. And that's what made him whatever. I had an interest in this topic developed it just wasn't a Brownie [00:06:30] Hawk eye, that's all. And so, you know, my brother and my husband, you know, they've taken these things to a North. I think it's important to stress that I'm not a lesbian because I don't like men. I have two sons. I adore men. I've always had a guy. Even my I have. I hate to admit this, but I always have a student I adore in class. You know, I don't think I treat unfairly, but there's usually somebody there, and it's always a [00:07:00] young man of a certain age that I, you know, find, uh, you know, just so story or so people would think I only favoured the women, but actually and I guess it's because of my sons. You know, I, uh I don't see them very much, and, uh, I miss them. So I kind of, you know, find these guys who radiate this chemistry or something. And I am quite, uh, another harass. I just kind of enjoy the company anyway, [00:07:30] So, yeah, that's how I grew up. I grew up and it was scary, some of it because, like I was telling someone recently that we I grew up in a five story apartment building in the Bronx. And, uh, like we had a giant furnace in the basement and I wouldn't go and hide there during hiding seek because it was like we had agreement to worry him right in our basement. It was like everything [00:08:00] was unreal. There was this world that you went to school. You did well at school. You did all of the stuff and but this real thing and somehow contained a crematorium and placement. And, uh, it just really moulded my life. And I think one last thing before you come in, um, I didn't have as many privileges as, uh, some of the other people, like, you know, I went to, uh, university [00:08:30] with women who'd been to prep school. It was a lot for them to come out. They had a lot of a long way to fall, you know, And my family we were on to mention from the beginning we were subhuman. In some definition by society. I could be anyone I wanted. It's a terrible thing, but that's one of the freedoms. It was a privilege to grow up with them. Despite all the things that we can say [00:09:00] because you had a first thing. They had their own idealism. And to see that people could maintain that in the face of what they went through was extraordinary and very life affirming. They also believed and seized the day. You know, like you didn't know what was gonna happen. I I've often said, You know, one of the worst things about growing up in a Holocaust of family is that you don't save for your retirement. You know, like why to die with money in the bank. [00:09:30] That would be the worst, right? So, I mean, you don't spend anything and everything and just live. You know, my mother used to say just grand life, and so I did. And being a dyke was part of that. I once saw Janis Joplin sing just before she died. I went with my husband. I was married. I had two Children. I May I [00:10:00] I think I only had two Children then. Jeremy wasn't born yet, and she was drinking up there, and at some point she said it was raining and she said, Uh, don't let me die in New Haven, Connecticut, you know, like get electrocuted through all of this. Uh uh, you know, electricity and wires and they don't let me die anyway from Connecticut. And I looked at this guy and [00:10:30] I thought, Don't let me die in New Haven, Connecticut. And so I came out instead. Can you describe for me what it was like growing up when all of your family history is somewhere else in In in Europe? How did how did you find a sense of place? That's an interesting question. I was a mediaeval history, major. Partly [00:11:00] because I thought there was a kind of, uh, you know, as in the States, we do an undergraduate degree, and then I went to law school. So I majored in mediaeval history for exactly for looking. And my whole search has been for a place. And look at this. I mean, here, I, uh I moved. I was born in the Bronx. I moved to Vancouver. Uh, British Columbia. I lived there for 10 years. I came here to New Zealand. I've been here for 25 years. Um, [00:11:30] I, I know how to migrate because that that involves a certain skill being able to relocate. And, uh um, the only trouble with my family is they kept thinking they'd have to relocate, you know, immediately and kept waiting to see when that song was, And so they were quite hyper vigilant. But, uh, for me, I've learned how to move. And, uh, but my search has always been like, [00:12:00] you know, when life has really changed. So things like Google map exist in my life. When you know, you may think that's when I first came to New Zealand. It took 10 days for a letter to get to, uh, to New York and then 10 days to come back. Who even remembered what you've written in that time? The answers were so it was $3 a minute, and that was even cheap. But at one point I remember I had a long term relationship [00:12:30] with a woman in Montreal. I could have gone to Montreal for the phone calls every month, you know, it was so stupid. But anyway, I guess everybody who's had those long term relationships those it would be a lot cheaper now, But, uh, I, uh I think that I just I used to hunger. The net has changed my life. My ability to live here my the sound of people's voices. I listen to WNYC [00:13:00] every day I do The New York Times crossword puzzle. Life is easier One time when I first came here, I saw a copy on a Wellington street of a three week old Sunday New York Times, and they wanted $29 for it. Even now, I couldn't do it. I couldn't buy it. It was just too big, you know, like but But so now there's something called Google map. And [00:13:30] the first time I looked up their town and actually saw that there was a place really called that that it had a red dot next to this name. It's like I couldn't even believe it. It was like, uh, I always thought it was something out of, you know, like, uh, fiddler on the roof. You know, like some Imagineer. [00:14:00] It was a place that was scary, that had lots of questions. I didn't learn my father's mother's name, my paternal grandmother's name till I was 46 years old. Uh, you know, you think I never asked and, uh, my mother would say, Oh, Ruthie, it's such a long time ago. Who can remember these things. Uh, and what I realised [00:14:30] over time is it was like Lot's wife. She had to keep looking for her if she turned back, if any of them look backward, they would have died from their tears, turned to salt, and that was their lesson to us was to keep going. But when I saw there was a place, I couldn't believe it. And then, [00:15:00] you know, whoever made Google. Thank you. Um, my parents were married in 1935 by the rabbi of Known as the Rebbe, and there's a video of him on you can Google it and he's wearing this feral cap on his head, and he's saying in Yiddish, which right, [00:15:30] I understand because that's my first language and he's shaking his finger and he's telling them to obey the and keep it holy. And when I was writing my last work on domestic violence in this country, I'd already found him, and I used him shaking his finger at me as my screen saver to keep me going, you know, like every time I thought I could [00:16:00] stop so sorry and you know, bla bla bla Well, it worked right? I had a stroke right after that. So I'm not saying what the causes were. But lots of times, when you grow up in my culture, you don't care about the cause. You just kind of go for that, you know, kick a goal in the last three seconds, you know, kind of moment. So, uh, I guess I'm still waiting to do that, but yeah. [00:16:30] So as a child, when you were asking questions like that and just and and you weren't getting answered, I mean, how, uh, but sometimes you did get answered, and that was worse. There were two ways they could be worse. Like I was blonde and blue eyed, and my parents and my brothers were dark eyed and dark haired. So right, I'm three years old, and I say to my mother, Was I adopted, You know, Look, everybody blond and I'm blonde, blue eyed. She said, Adapted. [00:17:00] Ruthie, we didn't want you in the place. Your father was making $9 a week. We had, you know, uh, four mouths to feed in a little apartment in the Bronx. So when you learned not to ask certain questions because she could say we wouldn't want you, We would never have adapted to it. They want you at all. So of course he didn't only mean that, you know, like, uh but you have to realise, this Jews aren't literal. Everything [00:17:30] isn't terrible, you know? And all this literal rule stuff, it's just bullshit. Any Jew can tell you that. You know, we don't believe in any of that stuff anyway, Um, but I won't do a riff on Judeo Christian anything but, um, yeah, so one or two and words really was that they could blurt out things that were terrifying. Uh, so you'd say you'd ask a question. And this happened just recently because, [00:18:00] uh, there was one photograph of my father's family. Um, and I didn't know several. It would have been his brothers and sisters and their husbands. Uh, I didn't know a lot of the people in the thing, so of course I'd say, Well, who was that? And, uh, you could get that from there to they put them into the oven. Some of them were alive in no time at all. And, uh, so the answers [00:18:30] were, you know, I went through a thing about how Hans Andre was a metaphor for my life, right? And, uh, that idea that they put them in the oven, the only thing they didn't do was fatten them up. But they did. You know, um, I have a cousin that I found There's, um, something called Jewish gen dot org. And it's like a genealogy thing. And [00:19:00] you can type in like a surname and a like a little town and, um, a country. And that's the hardest You have to type in the country. It's really in now, like my parents grew up and identified as Czech. But the what they grew up is now the Ukraine. So you know, So you had to get Ukraine, and you know that all of that gets confusing. But if you can type this threesome in, and if anybody [00:19:30] else is looking for that same reason, they put you in contact like it's amazing and someone was looking. And it was my cousin Meyer that we didn't know had lived through the war, right? I mean, everybody got separated and things, and he was with them at Auschwitz as a teenager, and he lived, you know, because they weren't rounded up till June 44. And so [00:20:00] if you were lucky and you you know, then you could maybe live. It was only a year more. I mean, Frank at on June 44 they got typhus. They were unlucky. But it was that possibility of the of living. And he did. And, uh, he had been there. Indeed. I couldn't believe it. I did this except for one phone call I had with him. It was all via [00:20:30] the net and it would be at work. I didn't have a home computer then, and I would be a wash with feelings and stumble in next door. I also broke a relationship at work, so they've heard a lot from me, but anyway, but he's He told the story about the because I don't know anything about my paternal grandmother. And he he'd known [00:21:00] her. He was a teenager, so I asked him questions. You know, the question of where she died was the least important question. I always knew that actually, I didn't. But for a long time I knew she died at a but what It was like You say you have a place of location. But even what? These people what would they have thought of a lesbian [00:21:30] granddaughter? What do you think? You know, like I carried their MIT at her mitochondrial genes. You know, I had no idea anything about her, but he did know. And he said to me, Firstly, I found it so moving, uh, that these Jewish men, they spoke Yiddish, and they came on to the train cars when they got to Auschwitz, and they said to them, [00:22:00] which was my family, Uh, give the Children to the old women and they couldn't understand what they were talking about. And they said, No, give the Children to the old women. And it was, of course, because they were going to kill the Children. They were going to kill the old women. So the only chance that the young mothers had was to give the Children to the old women. I mean, it's so obvious [00:22:30] they were helping them. Couldn't you get angry? The times I wanted to pick up a new, but I never said anything, and I'm against violence. But see, my brother got right into that anger. That's what made him so tough. Because I can feel it too. [00:23:00] Anyway, he said, the last time he saw my grandmother, she was surrounded by all of her grandchildren. I was already alive in the Bronx. I am one of her grandchildren. It fell to me to tell their story in a way that listen, because they were no bodies. They had no money. [00:23:30] They weren't rich. They weren't Rogers. They never went to school. They were people. And they certainly didn't deserve summary executions. I became a lawyer, fought for justice. Not very well, most of the time, but I, I everything I am I [00:24:00] brought from there from that surrounded by her grandchildren. No, I'm one of her grandchildren, you know, and my Children's Children. So I think it was, um you invented a lot of things. Like because they were so violent. [00:24:30] Uh, like we didn't have a lock on our bathroom door because, uh, I don't know. You know, somebody had antagonised my father about something, and I didn't in the bathroom and locked the door. That was stupid. I mean, you were never gonna That was so easy. We learned how to be can and while because walking the door was never gonna set any limits, you know? Anyway, so uh, [00:25:00] the, uh they were just, uh you know, it was a different place to grow, but they also, you know, they supported me. I went into when I went into the civil rights kind of stuff in the sixties, and, uh, my mother couldn't believe letting dogs loose on people in Birmingham, Alabama. You know, she just couldn't believe it. I mean, you know, they had a sense. My father [00:25:30] went to vote as early before he went to work. He unloaded trucks before there were forklifts. It was my father, you know, in the, uh, Washington market in the Bronx. You know, just he was cheaper than buying a forklift. I'm sure that's what he did it, but he had no education. And but he went to vote, you know, at five in the morning or something. As soon as the polls opened, they they were believers who had kind of, um [00:26:00] So that's what we grew up to be, too, I think. And, uh, you know, I When, uh when I first wrote a report on domestic violence in this country in 1990 two, I think it was published 93 and the government centred that report. I have a copy of it here. They drew lines through it, uh, which they didn't want to publish to keep like, uh, the names of the judges, uh, private, and to [00:26:30] take out some of the decisions that were just so misogynistic. We alone. You don't do that to me from the family that I come from. I had stories of women who had told me their lives, and I had a responsibility. So I, uh, published [00:27:00] took $1700 and published 100 copies of the volume of my report with the lines through it. When I handed them out, I said, You literally have to read between the lines to figure out what we wanted to say. And, of course, everyone flocked to hear what the government and I used to read it to them at conferences. And, you know, it came right from [00:27:30] there, right? Like I had been entrusted with these stories and I was gonna Nobody was going to tell me I couldn't do it. They used to say, um Doug Graham and things he used to say, Oh, they're breaching crown copyright, blah blah, blah. You know, I I'd say they're gonna put us in jail, you know? Look at me, man. If they put us in jail, I'm gonna starve to death, bring food, you know? And we had such a I enjoyed playing with [00:28:00] them. I worked with this guy, Neville Robertson, who's just a wonderful man. And he's about 6 ft tall. You know, it was really funny, like, right. I was the former battered woman who wrote about battering from the very legal position. And Neville, he was really seen as just a gender traitor, you know, like he wore him much worse than I did. I mean, I really love that guy. And I used to run behind him. He said this tall guy I used to do the gorilla runs and run out, you know, [00:28:30] say these kind of crazy kind of things, hopefully hurting their feelings, right. And then he used to I used to run back and stand behind, and he used to say, we are the conscience and critic of society, and I'd go, Yeah, that's right. Listen to him, you know, because my whole sense of state power was they could kill you, right? Whereas Neville, you know, he'd grown up as a, uh, a farmer son, you know, [00:29:00] in inheriting the farm, he he had a sense of, but they couldn't just do anything. And together we were a great modern Jeffery team because he brought all the psycho to to it all. Uh, I'm wondering, back in the Bronx, growing up, I mean, did you find there was discrimination against you or your family? Well, um I went to a, um I went on a full scholarship [00:29:30] to a place called Gauer College, which was kind of like, uh, an all women's was really a great place to go. And, um when, like they had, they didn't want to be. They were in Baltimore. They didn't want to be known as a Jewish school, right? So they had a kind of a quota on the number of Jews, but it wasn't an affirmative action quota like it was like, no more than, uh I don't know, 15 or 20% can be Jewish, because otherwise [00:30:00] it'll tip over, and we'll have a So there was, uh, on that level of no merit. You know, I, I just love it when these people now so pontifical, you know, they pontificated about us? Yeah, affirmative action. Which I really believe in. I mean, they've been exerting their own form of, you know, um, negative action and gatekeeping for so long, right? Uh, just like women getting into the legal profession. Now, it's more than you know. When [00:30:30] I went into, uh, in law school, there were nine women in my class out of 218. And, uh, if you narrowed that to women who had Children because I had two Children when I went into law school, there would have been maybe three of us, you know, And, uh, when Sylvia Cartwright went to law school here in New Zealand, my understanding is that her criminal law professor refused to talk about rape because he couldn't discuss an issue like that in [00:31:00] front of women. You know, like, you know, it It went along, right? You know, when I came to this country the most shocking And I don't know what it is for gay men here, but, you know, was, uh, must be who come from overseas. Must be a riot. Um, I went to the, uh, War Memorial Museum and all of these famous Greek statues, like black I remember that famous one. You know, they all have little fig leaves off over their penises. And so I mean, I just I I've seen [00:31:30] the originals right at the the Metro Museum of Art or something in New York. And it was just wherever Florence, Right? And, uh, you know, it's that whole kind of just that a whole shame based, um, I you know, it's so different. Of course. I came here from Vancouver. No wonder it was different. Everybody who couldn't live at any place else in Canada went to Vancouver, [00:32:00] right? So we had a preselected, wonderful group of people. Except So So what prompted you to get into the law? Well, firstly, by the time I went to law school, I really knew I had to get out of that marriage. You know, it was like, maybe post Janis Joplin. You know, I mean, I just couldn't die there. Um well, you see, I've had this and I. I don't know how many [00:32:30] women have had this. I had this kind of baptism into into adolescent lesbianism when I was about 16, and I went away to university, and I immediately fell in with these prep to dikes, right? Who were much more sophisticated than me. They, you know, they've been in in resident. You know, um, I forget what you call it, but, you know, they went to private school and they slept over there and things, [00:33:00] and they and they just were So, you know, I just was came as a babe in the woods. I'm not saying they did bad things to me, but, uh, because they didn't And, uh, it was really good, but it was too scary. I was there on a full scholarship. Uh, we saw one teacher get thrown out for kind of, uh, making it with a student on the library step. You had to believe that she maybe wanted to be thrown out, and the student got thrown out, too. And anyway, they just couldn't [00:33:30] have said. Told my parents I was thrown out for being a lesbian. They just they would have murdered me. There was no like that. Scholarship was my ticket out of a really violent family. And, um, II I couldn't play with it. Um, and so I sort of got involved with this woman and I, I guess, of all of the lovers. I've had it. The one I'm most ashamed of because I went away. You know, I went away to, [00:34:00] um, like for the Christmas holiday and I I had tried to find. I went down to Greenwich Village and I went looking for lesbians, but of course, I had no idea, except for the butt images of what a lesbian might look like. Right? So, I mean, I could have been seeing hundreds. I wouldn't have had a clue because they had to have, you know, tattoos up and down their arms and moustaches for me to think they would be then. So I didn't see any. And I didn't. That wasn't the image [00:34:30] I was kind of cultivating for myself at the moment. So, um, I never talked to her again. I just couldn't. I mean, I had a brother who, uh, want to beat the shit out of me for coming home late from a date with a boy to a jazz festival. You know, he was waiting downstairs, Uh um, outside the building. And when I came out with the car, I never called again. I'll tell you that. You know, like my [00:35:00] date but, uh, you just couldn't. There were There seemed to be lines you and I realised in some ways there were lines. As soon as I gave my mother, uh, grandchildren and Jewish grandchildren, Uh, like, uh, I wasn't, you know, I wasn't as maybe it's valuable a commodity. Or at least I could have a bit more freedom. I don't know. Yeah, more like I was, [00:35:30] uh, I'd sort of done what I had to do. And now I could go though The worst thing once with my mother, you know, eventually got at her best. She got to the point of thinking I was crazy and still wished me well, right, But by coming out, But, um, she never, uh, you know, when she Well, she never rooted for me when the relationship was in trouble. She You know, every time I broke up with somebody, she thought maybe [00:36:00] I'd come back and and I have a funny story about how I once almost did. Not really, but, uh, where she thought so. But anyway, um, she So she loved my Children. And I have to say that just before she died in 93. So my son mark is about 46. Right now, I have three kids, and, uh, she said to me, Ruthie, you did a good job [00:36:30] with your Children, and I just wept. I had never believed I hear that all along It. So are you crazy? What are you doing? You can go to school, Ruthie. Once the Children finish high school, they need a mother at home kind of stuff. You know, she told everybody she was proud of me as a lawyer, but I never heard that. It was like, Oh, you're not being a good mother. But she was a Jewish mother. But so one day, Jeremy, she [00:37:00] said to Jeremy, She said, What do you want to be when you grow up? And he said, at age five, a lesbian, right? At which point she Because I was kind of in the midst of coming out, everything was you know, this is paradise. This is the best. This is certainly all the dining room conversation we've been having. He just thought it was great. All these women who were so good to him in his life because for women who didn't have Children [00:37:30] bringing these Children in for a lot of them, you know, But, like, he was always successful at selling brownies so he could go to camp every time in the hail and bought dozens of them from him. You know, those those kids had, uh I think they they had a loving life, and then they had that homophobia that they had to deal with. It was, I think, confusing and hard. I didn't really understand until much later. How much shit, especially [00:38:00] Jeremy got from my being a dog I. I mean, And maybe it's just as well, because maybe I would have chosen differently. I certainly didn't expect my Children to wear my choices were kids, you know, they'll go for anything, you know, And so that was so easy. So he used to like, in one case, I wanted him to wear a helmet. Uh, when he rode his bike before it was, uh you know, [00:38:30] I mean, he's 38 now, so, you know, when he was about 15 or 16, and, um, in in the end, um, I realised because people told me that he would go out wearing his helmet, and then he'd take it off and and go to school and everything right. And it was because they were calling him a fag because he was wearing a helmet, and that meant and his mother was a dog, that he was a bag and blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And [00:39:00] at some point, I said, Look, I've heard that you're not wearing your helmet, and if you're not going to, you can ride your bike, which was his principal means of transportation. He said, Well, I won't ride it. And I thought, Oh, no, this is too big. You know, I thought, you know, like, what is going on? And I really did learn that he was being mercilessly teased for nothing, you know, because, uh, because of me. So, um, you know, I felt really bad, so he didn't have to wear his helmet. Luckily, never killed himself. [00:39:30] But you know how stupid these choices, you know, And his first girlfriend, her mother was a lesbian, and somewhere he was away at sleep away camp and there was a discussion and she had sort of said something that was less homophobic and he'd heard it and they talked and he told me like it. It's like he realised they were lesbians, like her mother. And eventually they [00:40:00] all said it. But it was. But sometimes I wish because we've had a lot of things on lesbian Children. We should really do that sort of intergenerational and listen to it. It wasn't as easy, you know, like, we like to tell the success stories. Because, of course, the world out there doesn't believe they exist, you know? And yes, I have a son with a PhD. You know, I have a son with a you know, whatever. Um, I forget what they're called now, [00:40:30] but from, uh, from the University of Chicago, he has a masters of business, and, you know, I have very high achieving Children. And so for a long time, we needed just to prove that that our kids could achieve so that they wouldn't take them away from us. You know, I, I spent years when I was first a lawyer in the Well in 79 when I came out for at least three or four years, every lunchtime with [00:41:00] my gay lawyer partner, Richard Brill. We used to run my lesbian custody case. You know who I would call what I would do like to that, too. And you said, Well, I was with a Bacher and he would have gotten custody before I would have. I mean, I don't think we can believe that now, But I know that because I went [00:41:30] to a conference in Canada where we were talking about a recognition of whatever same sex relationships of the legal conference run by the Upper Law Society of Canada. And, uh, when I talked about, uh, the kids and this and then what happened, uh, one of the, um, law professors from Queen's University came over and said, You know, I doubt whether they would have even give, allowed you to see those Children. So I mean, as between a batter and [00:42:00] a dyke. I mean and not not only that, but that was where I worked. I was a lawyer, so outing myself within that workplace was really at that moment. Uh, quite scary and, uh, fraught with retribution. I think so. And, you know, like I went to a therapist when I was first coming out, this woman [00:42:30] who was known as a feminist and who eventually came out, and at one point she said, to me. I was paying for this. At one point she said to me, I don't think you're a lesbian, Ruth. You love your Children too much, and it's like I didn't go back after that. I mean it. The It was crazy, right? It was like, I guess all of that American psychiatric stuff and [00:43:00] everything, but, um, it was really only that he self destructed and just became a drunk. Um, my husband that, uh, that I shot my Children. Nothing to do with that. I was a reasonable mother or one of the first lawyers. You know that and you know nothing. It's just that he couldn't manage. So, uh, I just and in fact, I, I brought them to this country, [00:43:30] um, on just a one year permission. But he was into so self-destruction by then that I knew he would never come and get me. And like, even though and it was before The Hague convention, he couldn't get them back to Canada. So once he saw, uh, consent for me to come here for a year. Um, it meant I was here with them, and they weren't going to revoke that. But now you couldn't do that Run, [00:44:00] you know? So, um, it was crazy. So you got into a situation like I actually married a guy. Were you allowed to say this? I didn't know he died, so I'll just, uh, to stay here. And I love her. She married his lover, Um, and when I thought about it, I thought, you know, there was no money or anything. It was just a swap, you know, like, we didn't have a double wedding, But we went up to the Alex, you know, when it was still on Federal Street, Um, [00:44:30] and a lesbian pub. And we had a big celebration afterwards. It was quite crazy, but, uh, because he had got nastier over time. But, um, there was no way to stay here, like could sponsor a guy that she said she'd met two months before who didn't speak English particularly. And, you know, and who luckily could hide behind He was a lovely man. Could hide behind their own racial stereotypes [00:45:00] so that they if he grinned at them, that was all that mattered. She could, but we'd been together for eight years, and she couldn't sponsor me to come to this country. And it was before they were giving those, uh, you know, work visas and things. Yeah, And Marilyn, we we went to see her, and she just said, Well, find somebody and get married. That's the only thing you can do. So, uh, yeah, I mean, just that kind of constant state interference or state lack of support. Um, [00:45:30] was, uh, you know, it was just omnipresent. Plus, we all knew about the Sharon Kowalski case, and we all knew, you know, that, uh, anyway, it was probably after stonewall. It was probably one of the first, uh, would have been in the mid seventies or late seventies. I can't. Maybe even early eighties. Sharon Kowalski was a woman who had a I can't remember her lover's name very long term lover who was a, you know, physiotherapist [00:46:00] or something. And Sharon Kowalski was severely injured in a traffic accident. And her lover, um, it took years for, like her parents. Kowalski's parents barred her lover from the hospital, and she had to eventually be appointed a. But that took many years. And it was like her parents. Sharon Kowalski's parents preferred that their daughter be back watered and zero rather than get better [00:46:30] with her lover, right? And so there were these free Sharon Kowalski, demonstrations all over. You know, Uh, uh, the state Like I mean, that was such a palpable how you know, And we had cases here, too, of women who died whose lovers were banned from the funerals, whose parents came along and took everything or, you know, evicted. I mean, [00:47:00] these were things we knew could happen. And, uh, there were very few remedies. So you like this for for a while? I decided, um, I didn't want to just work on domestic violence anymore, so I should work on gay issues. Right? And, uh, So I, uh, I wrote an article, and it's called practising down under, you know, gays and lesbians and the law in New Zealand, you know? And I loved [00:47:30] it, you know? What do we do? We practise down under, you know? And that reminded me. Did you ever see, um, soap. Did you ever see it was a wonderful, um, Billy Crystal was in it, and he played a gay guy in it who had fathered a child and was going for custody of that child and uh, the lawyer, you know, for the other side said, Are you a practising homosexual? [00:48:00] And he said, I do it so well, I don't have to practise anymore, you know? And, uh, so that's a practising down under. You know what did you know? Uh, I like to make fun of it. I like to know it. You know, at my funeral, I want them to play Leonard Cohen singing. They sentenced me to 20 years of boredom, you know, trying [00:48:30] to change the system from within. You know, I got 40 years. 20 years is nothing, you know? I mean, there's more to it. It's not. It's not the full statement, but, uh, you just need to act out sometimes because you need to put yourself into I don't know, like you. It's a really interesting [00:49:00] thing. I'm sure it's like what being a Maori bicultural person in this society is. You know, you just you have to observe like, um, the guy that I married now we had to go to immigration or the Labour Department or something and have an interview to show that we were, you know, really married and not just, um, gays and dogs trying to get into this country And, uh, a friend of mine who had actually married a guy and they were [00:49:30] a legit couple. She did a briefing with us about things that they would do. Um, like, what kind of questions would come up and things like that and what you needed, sort of to know, You know, people's birthdays and just I mean, that is really a price of homophobia, filling your fucking grey matter with all this insane detail just to pass an immigration thing because there's so, so homophobic that they won't see you as [00:50:00] a real human being, you know? I mean, this is from the past, but it's not that long ago that you had to do things like that. You know, just leave clothes in someone's house and I can't tell you how offensive that thing is. When I married Owen, the woman who married us came Beryl Fletcher's husband had cheated on her. She wrote word burners and things. I she gave me her [00:50:30] husband, the ring her husband had given to her when he was being totally dishonest. I we used that ring to to be married with, you know, like So we tried to do, you know, I had two maids of honour. You know, we tried to really do a play, but there was a part of it that was so morally bankrupt, and that was being foisted on us for no reason whatsoever. And you couldn't get away from, you know? I mean, [00:51:00] that's what I feel about civil unions now, you know? So I'm a Jewish dyke, right? If we said that everyone could get married, but Jews and Jews could only have civil unions or everybody else could have civil unions, too. But Jews couldn't be married. They could only have civil unions. I would hope that there would be a mass outcry. It's just a kind of measurement of how much [00:51:30] we tolerate a lack of human rights for gays that we don't go nuts about the idea of separate but equal. I mean, you know, loving in Virginia was 1968. I would have thought we could have learned a lot. Uh, since then and of course, now we'll get it because England is doing it and everyone's doing it. So we don't seem, you know, But that whole view that new Zealand is, you know, in that forefront of human rights bullshit. You know, [00:52:00] we maybe were at some point, women suffrage in 18 93. But the whole gay, uh, issue has been just to me the worst compromise to create a separate category for gays and pretend it's equal when we see all the time in the adoption issue. How little? Well, maybe they'll they'll change that, too. But that peace meal changing and the homophobia that was implicit [00:52:30] in not putting the adoption act in, for instance, not giving full marriage uh, I mean, I have a whole analysis of the recognition of which I will trouble you with. But I mean, I think that's what will happen is everybody who's been married and of everyone who's been married in Canada or, you know, the Netherlands or whatever wherever will come and insist that their marriages be recognised. And, uh, like [00:53:00] I would like to see. I always had married scenarios. So I'd like to see a scenario where there are twins who marry one, marries like a woman, and the other twin marries the opposite sex, and they both come back. They they have a double wedding and they both come back to this country and ask for recognition. And we let the courts tell us why there's any difference in, uh, [00:53:30] the legitimacy of their relationship. I just I just think that just like I used to have this thing of marriage of like on the Auckland domain and it would be C bun next to CB and, you know, strapless next to strapless and Kyrie would sing or promise me, you know. And we'd all like the Moonies get married in one giant kind of ceremony. I don't know. [00:54:00] I thought a lot about these things, you know? And I do think I'm getting older and I can see where you can acquire Couer status at some point or at least five years status where you can We do remember things, you know, just because we've lived like I remember, you won't care about this. That judge has spoke out against mediation in terms of domestic violence in 1993. I have a footnote. I intend [00:54:30] to use that all the time. Now, since he's so pro as a minimum, accountability has to mean what was it that made him change his mind like That's what I want to know. I want to hold. See, this is me as an ideal story, but I'd like to get some answers finally, to like how certain things happen. And I'd like a bit of gentleness [00:55:00] for her. So I, you know, like, uh, like I loved it when, uh, you know, in San Francisco that the first marriage went to, you know, the women who formed the Daughters of the Light. And we have those accolades to give in our community. And I think I think it's time we really did more of that. You know that, Uh, you know, there are those people who should be the first [00:55:30] or something like I think of, you know, Alice and Laurie and those people who have worked so long and hard. And, uh, luckily, I'm just a man who I came late, and I'm I don't claim he was dead. Tell me, did you have any, um, issues with being a dyke from From Way Back? Way back when I once got beaten up when I was about 11, when I tried to shave [00:56:00] some facial hair and my mother gave me into the bathroom, which didn't have a lot as you recall. And, uh, and I, I think she knew something then and I didn't know. And, uh, yeah, I don't know. I don't have, Um the the way I came at was really, um, funny, or what happened was really funny. Like, one day I get this call from my mother who's in Florida, [00:56:30] and, uh, she says to me, um, she lives in a condominium for old people in Florida. And she says to me, Ruthie, she says, I was standing in the middle of the pool, you know, and I started talking to somebody, and, uh I don't know what her name is, and I don't know what she was doing here. So I, I really with my mother, you have to start getting scared already, you know? And she said that, uh um, I said to her, Oh, [00:57:00] I said, where are you from? And she said, I'm from Vancouver and she said, Oh, I have a daughter. She lives in Vancouver. So she's calling me Vancouver. She says, Oh, that's very nice. I don't know where she's from. I don't know what her name is. So I said to her, Do you know my daughter. And she said, I said Your name and her face, Rose and Ruthie. She said to me, Go to Vancouver [00:57:30] and save your daughter's life. She runs around with a terrible group, and I think she's a lesbian. I didn't know I did for four years after that. What, are you kidding? She was crazy. She was just out of her bug. I subsequently found out that Peter, my former husband, had called her and I had this conversation and he, in fact, had called everyone I knew [00:58:00] to tell them, You know, that I was a So, um, but that was the fun. Go to Vancouver and save your daughter's life. I just couldn't believe it, you know? So, um, I don't remember as a I mean, we had things about lesbians who were purple on Thursdays. I don't know where that, you know, in New York or high school, but, um, I think [00:58:30] it wasn't until I kind of fell in with these, um and understood, really, that they just took away your scholarship and threw you away. If you, um if you were a I just couldn't. It was my ticket out and uh, I couldn't avoid I couldn't. You know, I, I believe that everything goes off on luck. But if you're given a lucky deal, you have to run with it, you know? And so, [00:59:00] um and so I threw myself into heterosexuality for until I was 33 years old, you know? So that's like, um, 17 years, you know? And that's pretty much how long I was married, I guess. Or at least with Peter for that period of time, because he was my ticket out to, um there was a time that my brother, we were the three of us were walking some flight. [00:59:30] When I was just dating Peter and my brother went to hit me for something, punch me out for something. Rather Peter said, you know, you can't do that. You know, she's going to be my wife, you know, And it was just like I don't even know, but talk about sir. Gala, man, I would have followed that guy forever. I mean, it took a long time that I was with him for 14 years or something. Um, I would, you know, and nobody had ever been able to to say that you can't [01:00:00] do that. And, uh, I didn't realise it was a passing of rights. It was a ritual that passed somehow the ability to, for instance, hit me I. I didn't realise that, uh, I just was blown away by the strength of it all. And, uh, you know, uh, it's funny because lots of times, they think like, Oh, let's say I had a a battering father. I had a battering brother, and then I had a husband [01:00:30] who was a batterer. Um, I just wanna say really clearly. Those men didn't look alike. They were never packaged the same It isn't like somehow I'm drawn to men who are bad or I'm not. I actually looked really different guys. Peter was a Harvard man. He had a PhD. Whoever told you Jewish guys like that could become drunks could become That wasn't the myth I [01:01:00] was given, you know? So I I sometimes hear Oh, you know that mother, she's, like, you know, addicted to the violence. Bullshit. Lots of it's only when they start hitting us that that becomes then that almost self fulfilling perspective. It's that my guys, they were packaged so differently I never would have believed that there would be a continuum of battering. I now know [01:01:30] differently. And, uh, and I think it was good in terms of the work that I did. I brought that perspective to it and I made jokes, you know, like one of my favourite. You like my joke? Um, you know, there's a rule of thumb. Right? So, uh, you know, you can't, uh, can't beat your wife with a stick that's bigger, bigger than your thumb. That's the rule of thumb. That idiom we use rule of thumb. That's what it means. There was a legal principle that you couldn't [01:02:00] beat your wife with a stick that was bigger than your thumb. So you couldn't get it with a four by two, you know, or something. So I I once set at a big law conference. Uh, you know, what do you think it was that 18th century women looked for in a guy? Thin thumbs, man, you know the member that matters, right? You know, if you're gonna be able to me according to how thick my thumb [01:02:30] is, I wanna see that before Show me your thumb. You know, before we're married, you know, like I mean, the is ridiculous, right? But that can you believe that? Well, of course it must bring out the you know, I'm looking for it than the man I'm looking for this. I mean, you know, um, Robyn Morgan once wrote, [01:03:00] and this is probably me and my words, But when she wrote her poem Monster, where her son looks at her pubic hair and points and says monster. And she writes this amazing poem of the late sixties early seventies about this, and at one point she says, just want to have known what I might have been without the violence. And I think so many [01:03:30] women have that story and probably a lot of gay men, too, just once to have glimpsed what I might have been. And I think that, um, like, luckily at this point of my life, I look back and I'm I. I wouldn't say I'm satisfied, but when you grow up in the family that I grew up in, when everyone is killed for no reason whatsoever [01:04:00] because they're Jewish, I mean, what could that possibly mean? I'm not a practising Jew. I do it well enough. I don't have to practise anymore, you know. But, uh, what could it mean? That they murder you for that? When you look at your brothers and your father's violence, do you? I'm not. I'm not sure if the right word is understand or [01:04:30] I mean, do you see where it comes from? And this past year in Prague in December, I told you that I had a photo. One photo of my father's family. It's kind of trivialising to say, but, you know, I don't know if you've been You went to see the life of So, um, I have various things in my life which are different stories [01:05:00] and that I'll never know the truth of which is the story. And they they don't have all good endings. But I prefer certain stories. Uh, one of that is about my grandmother's death, which I now know because of, uh, Meyer. It's beyond a doubt. But I had been told originally that she hadn't been taken [01:05:30] to Auschwitz, that somehow she stood by her cow when the Nazis came and she wouldn't let go of the cows lead to have a whole image, and they'd beaten her to death with, like, the rifles and I preferred that story to Auschwitz because, of course, it eliminated the train and the thing and the gas, you know, like and for a long [01:06:00] time I wouldn't have been able to tell which one that one I know. But the other story is one that I encountered in Prague, which was up in the second. And in some ways I made it into something charming and, um, sucking for me, which is in the second floor of the Spanish synagogue in Prague, which is a beautiful building. You know, Hitler was going to make my [01:06:30] parents a Czech, and Hitler was going to make Prague into, like, a theme park for Jews. So there's a whole Jewish section which doesn't exist. Other places, including, like the old new synagogue, which is from about the 12th century, the only wooden synagogue in Europe. And so there. So there's some lovely places in Prague that just don't exist. Other places because he didn't bomb Prague wasn't bombed, and he didn't burn [01:07:00] down those areas. I mean, they desecrated them down, but they're not. Anyway, so, um, up on the second floor now there's a kind of history of the Czech Jewish people and then over there in December and last December. And, uh, we're walking around and I'm just looking at the different, you know, um, exhibit. [01:07:30] And, uh, I said to Jane, that's my my my uncle. And there was a, um I knew immediately I had seen him in that other photo and he was wearing his uniform and he was an officer in the Czech region. And so he was wearing his uniform, and then and I just knew it was and she looked and it said, Isaac, we which is my family. So we knew it was, and then [01:08:00] and he was there and, uh, just and there was a whole blurb about him in Czech, of course. But it said that in English. It said it was a story of his funeral and that he had killed himself in response in 1947 to a virulently anti Semitic government attack. So this is a life [01:08:30] of pie because I had always known that he killed himself, and I'd always known the consequences to my father. My father stopped speaking after my uncle killed himself. It was just one lost too many. He went to work. He gave his money over to my mother. Maybe he beat you up sometimes, but he virtually [01:09:00] stopped speaking. I couldn't tell you if my father was intelligent or not. I really never heard him talk about anything. Um, I was three when, uh and so I had different stories, um, about him, and then suddenly, you know, what's this thing? So I, uh I have a friend, Norman Franca, who teaches German at Waikato, [01:09:30] And I wrote to Norman, and I said, Do you speak Czech? Because this is And he knew someone at radio who, uh, radio Prague. Who, uh, who ran the English thing. And he translated it for us. And it It's about his funeral and his death. And 1000 people came and he had fought at the battle of Moscow. He had been in Stalingrad, you know? And, you know, you know, he [01:10:00] was, uh, interestingly enough, I sent it to my brother, see who's my other brother. Harold has died already, and he was a much softer guy. But I sent it to, uh, my brother C, and he said to me, Oh, Ruthie, you know, we should have known about this and I thought so. This is an answer to your question. Like he had to keep proving we would fight back. But we had a hero [01:10:30] in our lives. But because of its effect on my father, that could never be shared with us because it was just too much for him. He'd had some communication with him. He thought he would come to the US. He was his oldest brother. They were the two oldest. My grandfather had been killed by being gassed, fighting for the Austro Hungarian army in the first World War. [01:11:00] And then there are his allies came and killed his family. I mean, are you surprised? I've never been a great patriot, you know. I mean, are all of those esque then? The nice thing is, they let me go and bring a flower. So I went back later to the synagogue and when, and I left a flower for him. So we know we were there, you know, and, [01:11:30] uh and I took him home, you know, and I have his photo and everything like that. And the very nicest thing is that you may not you know, there's something called a not don't think of Tolkien. He just must have been a terrible anti Seine and the Go save the Jews. He was like a an artificial man created by giant a man who, uh, [01:12:00] uh was created by a famous Jewish rabbi and, uh, in Prague and his job. He ran errands. He did nice things for the people in the community, but in the end he saved their lives of all of them. And then there was a sense that he couldn't really keep living like he was this artificial man. So they let him live. He lives in the attic of the old new synagogue in Prague, and my uncle lives [01:12:30] in the second floor of the Spanish synagogue in Prague. And that's to me. But it's an incredible thing. Like, did I ever think of my You know, the strange thing is that I started out working on violence against women, But I think, really, since I worked on the Bristol case where this I got to know this woman [01:13:00] whose three Children were murdered by her husband here in New Zealand since I worked on that and started to think about these issues from my own life I really have been interested in in kids and, uh, prioritising the safety of Children from violence. And, uh, that's all, really. It got passed in 1995. It's been going now they're trying to take it back because it's too expensive, you know, uh, blah, blah, blah. [01:13:30] So there's a whole fight around that whole issue now, but in terms of something called the family court proceedings Reform bill anyway. And so I've been involved in writing submissions and doing things like that. And, um, I really initially I saw myself as the one of those Children exposed to violence in the way it had had an effect on me because I I know [01:14:00] even in my own life, I had to learn to take three steps back. You know, there's a real there's a realness about violence and, uh, cuts out all the bullshit. You know, like it's really electric. And I really did have to learn not to go for that charge I'd seen. Have the men in my life had gotten off [01:14:30] on it. I I knew. I knew the charge of it, and I just that wasn't who I So I read about in some ways myself and violence. And then, of course, I had to realise that. See, he'd had it even worse than me. Like he always thought my father was nothing from the time he got to me that he really been bad when he was a kid and stuff like that. He just was so [01:15:00] angry. He had his whole world went up and literally went up and smoke, but nothing. All these people, if you see, you know, one photography and one photograph there there's no way they ever did anything to hurt anybody. You know, they were just no bodies, you know, it was crazy. And, uh, IIIII. I had more room for him, [01:15:30] and I certainly liked Since Harold died, my brother Harold died. I, uh, like C was one of these people. He could be so mean to Harold, but he really loved him, you know? Right, Because it's safest to take everything out on your family, isn't it? There's no consequences. When he died, he really missed him. So I've never really been anybody that you'd sort of [01:16:00] in his mind, I was just a loser, right, But, um, on the other hand, that was all we had left as a family, and we were the only one who once, who been through the bronze together. Right. So I did think of him as a victim, and I've often thought of him as a victim. But I also thought, you know, I used a lot of humour to, um, get the domestic violence Act passed. [01:16:30] I'd been ridiculed and had contempt expressed to me by a guy who had a PhD from Yale with distinction. And, uh, you know, Harvard, You know, after 15 years, you learn how to do it yourself. You know, like, you just sort of listen and listen and listen and listen. So I was able to When I was fighting that battle, I understood the power [01:17:00] of ridicule and contempt in polysyllabic language. I'd been taken apart by it for years, you know, and so I decided to use some of it back, right? And, uh, it was one voice that was needed because there was such politeness that nobody really said what was really going on, you know? But I think it also, you know, there was this, um [01:17:30] the second report I wrote there was a thing where we dedicated it to, by name and age to every woman and child who'd been killed in this country since the domestic Violence Act was passed. It was very hard getting all of that material, but it was like 100 and 91 people and, you know, seven years. It was a lot of people from New Zealand and, uh, of women [01:18:00] who I hadn't known before but who I like very much who's also Jewish. She said to me, Uh, as soon as I saw the names, I knew you were Jewish because we do those things Memorial Memorial, Memorial, uh-huh A lot of remembering of names. And of course, we don't want those names to die. So, um, I've written about my father [01:18:30] in that way in a poem, you know, so many names dead with you. Um, and I said to her, You know, as soon as I knew they were names, I knew I would use them right, because it's like we have to get away from that politeness and really think about who pays and what's the cost. And I think at least [01:19:00] at law school, we still talk about justice. Sometimes maybe not. enough. But we still have some vision of justice. And I've been really lucky to have a job where I've been able to do that for my whole life and play games as well. Mhm. You know, one time, uh, there were these nine court of appeal judges in a room, and it was about 1000 people. Anyway, Maori used to love my talks because, you know, I'd say these things that [01:19:30] they didn't think you were allowed to say, and they yell Order, order! It was really wonderful. Um, it was great, you know? And I was best friends with this woman who was the Maori head of women's refuge, and she was wonderful. And she gave me a lot of access into, uh, just trainings and talks and things, and, uh, and we did a lot of it together. Her, me and Neville. And, uh, So one day, uh, they taken every judge's [01:20:00] name out of her report. I could show it to, you know, drawing lines through what women were saying. I said, you know, me and Neville, we've decided to become rich. Um, from domestic violence. Uh, we're gonna market a board game. We're gonna call it, uh, pin the judge on the judgement or, uh, ex parte brute. And I said, And if you've read any of these judgments, you know for sure there's a get out of jail free card, [01:20:30] right? My people went nuts right in the room. My most prized time was that I was invited to a conference here in New Zealand about, uh, something I'd written. And the principal family called Johnny. He just hated me, you know, I'd come in and I do this kind of funny jokes get standing ovations. It was riot, you know, And he he [01:21:00] just as, um we're going up to the stage. This woman Brenda had organised the conference. She said to me, Do you want to hear what he said about you? I said, sure. And she said, uh, he said, um, if that bitch steals his conference, you're gonna answer to me. So, uh, I don't need to be invited twice. Right? So I got up right, and I went for gold, right? And [01:21:30] I got a standing ovation and everything like that, You know, like, go to hell, eat your heart out. You know, I mean, you know this is the right, just, you know, and she comes over and she says you really are a bitch. I said, what did you expect me to do? You know, in the, uh you know, why did you tell me if you didn't want me to Just and I? I think that that, um, my [01:22:00] role in it and to some extent they were afraid of us. For a small time, they learned not to be, because we're really just people. But, um, So back to what I was telling you in my family, you had to be worth living in a way that I don't think a lot of other people necessarily have to question because, you know, it's just an accident. Like [01:22:30] all my my grandmother's grandchildren died with her, but no. So, I mean, it wasn't that I'm smarter. There's a Yiddish phrase that's called to leave, and it wasn't meant for you to live. And my mother really believed we were meant to live. One time we were walking around her place in Florida and she said to me, Oh, Ruthie, I've thought so long. Why were we, you know, be to leave? And why were we meant to live, [01:23:00] she said. I'll tell you one thing. It wasn't because we were the smartest right? And that's right. We weren't the smartest. It's its luck. But as I said, you you had to make you couldn't make your luck. But if it was given to you, you had to run with it and you had to know when the time was right, which made you a little kind of, you know, amygdala a lot of times. But, [01:23:30] um, you know, I think I think like if they if I have a story to tell, it's that story of, um, growing up with them and somehow trying to live honestly and generously I I It took me. It didn't take me that long to forgive my parents. I just thought, Oh, people crack up [01:24:00] and going into hospital for a hell of a lot less than this, and they just tried to keep going. And, you know, I thought, as even as a young adult, I thought if I read about them in a case study, I would feel, you know, empathy and not anger, and I could learn to do that myself and the most wonderful thing is that my mother [01:24:30] lived long enough to like me. And so maybe she was 80 you know, but But she'd lived to be 94 and so she could, um um So maybe for two years, I wondered, you know, she she was always a great inconsistent. She could love you to death and then want to kill you. You know, that kind of [01:25:00] stuff. So she was very, uh, you know, erratic, but, um, mood swings. But, um, after about two years, she was being consistent, right? So, um, and then three years, four years, I eventually I learned to trust it and and to really enjoy it. And then I called my own daughter, and I said to her, You know, we could cut out 50 years of this garbage. We could just say, Let's not lie to [01:25:30] each other ever again. What? Just let's, uh, tell each other the truth, and, uh and then we don't have to go through 50 more years of this. Anyway, we we were That wasn't the reason we got better, but we got a lot better, you know, But, uh, just people waste so much time. Guess anyway, you so [01:26:00] The important thing is, even though I never did make the revolution like I'd hoped to, you know, and, uh um, we haven't reinstituted matriarchy or whatever anybody else wanted, though I have to say, I've never been a separatist. I don't think you could be born a Jew and believe in any form of biological determinism. I, uh it just never was. Anyway, I I have two sons, you know as well as a daughter. One time a guy in [01:26:30] my legal systems class, he got up and he asked me if I thought I was a man hater. And I said to him, it was just one of these giant classes like paper chase. You know, they went all the way up like that 304 100 kids. And I said, a man hate a man. I'm a total idealist, you know, uh, why would I be standing here? Otherwise, I said, you know, Firstly, if I really believed that all men were rapists, I would have drowned my [01:27:00] sons at birth in any way. If I were a man hater, I'd be out doing target practise, you know, Amazing, crazy. So funny. They were this whole kind of year. We used to have a good time together. There was a there was a whole way in which, uh, because I was the first teacher at that law school [01:27:30] before, even before Margaret Wilson or anyone came there, there was a way in which we were all in together, you know, and, uh, a lot about how well those students did without a library, for instance. Uh, and we didn't have all of those databases electronic, uh, really determined in part whether we got a law school or not. And so, you know, we did famously, and we, uh we all did it, and it was great. It was like every [01:28:00] Maori radical who ever want to be a lawyer was in that first class. You know, every gay guy, every you know, it was just like, just the idealism of the class and just the anger at the law. And, um, I remember the first time I went in and I said, You know, you may think it's funny to have someone from the Bronx, you know, talking to you about the Treaty of Waitangi, I said, At least I have nothing to unlearn. It's funny You know, I always remember [01:28:30] who was the guy who was on. Um Oh, he's a Maori guy, Uh, who was on Shark in the park or something like that anyway. And he came to a queer and tertiary education, and so he was leading a kind of treaty workshop, and some idiot goes up on the back. How much Maori do you have in you anyway? And he says, Well, last night, I had a bad 7. 5 [01:29:00] inches. I don't know. You know, it was just and I realised from hearing that that there was that place for humour that nobody asked another question. It was stupid to ask anymore. He had just that. Those are wonderful answers, and we our side has to learn to give at least some silencing wonderful answers, you know, seven inches wearing a condom, he said or something. It was wonderful. [01:29:30] It was, uh, you know, and we used to have lesbian comedians. One of them got to have so many friends who are vegans. Now, um, you know, said to me, uh, said to this, um and she said I didn't give up men to eat tofu, you know, really? You know, and, uh, you know, just, um, she did a thing. My mother loved Eleanor Roosevelt. She saw her as like a saint. You know, the the [01:30:00] women in my neighbourhood. The only time I remember them ever dressing up and going to a lecture. Eleanor Rhodes was giving a talk at our public school, and they all dressed up and went to see her. So Robin Tyler was her name and the comedian. She had this photo wonderful photo of Ellen Rosel and said it was good enough for Eleanor Roosevelt. It's good enough for me. And I sent it to my [01:30:30] and have wasted your time. A lot of it. Not at all, not not at all. You talk to me about, um, you mentioned coming to New Zealand and, um, getting married to stay in the country. And I'm wondering, can you talk to me about working within the system and then working with without outside the system and and how that kind of works in your own head? Well, firstly, in about 1985 in [01:31:00] Hamilton, we used to have a group called lists called and it was lesbians inside the system and uh, we would meet monthly and we talk about all these crazy things Like what you wear and pronouns and, you know, uh, kind of people's experience and just ways they were getting They probably I I can remember it must have been at least 20 women would meet. And it was just about when lesbians were off [01:31:30] the benefit and getting jobs, you know, and things like, uh, there'd been a time when I first came to this country that a lot of women were on the D PB and they were getting education. And as I as I said to a lot of women had Children. And then or there were younger women who were also finishing their education. So, uh, in by about 85 women and les a lot of lesbians were moving into jobs. I think then, [01:32:00] um I mean, obviously that existed before, But friends of mine, I guess because I was around the university, my lover then was teaching in the department at and there were some famous out lesbians. They were, sadly enough at Waikato, you've never seen the same number of out gay men, and I think it firstly, women's studies gave that ability, uh, for women to come out, and and maybe there's just so [01:32:30] much more homophobia against gay men. Um, but I certainly couldn't count off lots of men that I knew. And anyway, so, um yeah, so we did have this group lists, and, um and those issues were very real. Like, I was in a law firm, you know? And, uh, um yeah, and, uh, and it also involved, um, [01:33:00] not as much. But, um, with the Children, you know, going to parent teacher meetings, how much you come out to these people. You know, there's lots of issues that were being discussed, and, uh then we got that got involved list anyway, got involved with Maori activism because he who who was running the Maori Women's Centre, which really, um, called the Maori Women Centre. But it was really, [01:33:30] uh, the foyer of the rape crisis collective. We'd given some space and things like there was very there really weren't buildings and people weren't getting paid, you know? Everything was really volunteer. Uh, some some I don't know. They had summer scheme sometimes, but it was very, very non government funded. And, um yeah, so they because there's always been my experience, [01:34:00] at least with the women that I know who've been like lesbian feminist here is that it's always been very, uh, involved in Maori activism, too. And there's been always and, uh, like Mea Pitman or someone, but they've always been out Maori diets like, um, I came after the tour, but I was here in time for the right and so one of my fame first memories was, you know, making £50 [01:34:30] of potato salad at Auckland University kitchens. And, you know, there was all of that and there were the for the bastion point things. And a lot of my friends had been involved. I was I was kind of I'd I'd been a, um a a leftie all my life. So I mean, I immediately gravitated to those women and they were very involved and, uh, ripping off pearl earrings and necklaces from the five and dime and wearing [01:35:00] them to Waitangi and, you know, then kind of infiltrating treaty grounds. That was, you know, there was a lot of stuff that went on, and a lot of a lot of people, both men and women, but I knew a lot of lesbians, but I a lot of men down in Hamilton, too. Because of stopping the, uh, game and things and the tour. The tour was still very close. Uh, and when I first arrived and people had their tour stories and there was lots [01:35:30] of that going on, so for lesbians and and a lot of lesbians it had been, you know, they'd been in that part two squad, like, was quite wonderful going to that film part two with with women from the community because you could recognise, you know, different. It was a very idealistic community and a great believer in, uh, yeah, equality. Um, I was later than bitches, witches and [01:36:00] dikes, which was, uh, you know, a famous lesbian newsletter. And it and I wasn't here when broadsheet had its dike cut. You know? So, um, you know when the lesbian split from broad sheet, So there were different things that, uh, had that really predated me, but I definitely got involved in the treaty stuff and, uh oh, and then 80 by 86. Of course, it was homosexual law reform, [01:36:30] you know, and I'd never like being in Hamilton is really different from being in Vancouver. I'll tell you that in terms of gay rights, you know, like I can remember going very early on to one of the first gay games things in Vancouver, and you know it. I mean, Vancouver was about 40% gay and lesbian. It was just a wonderful place to come out. And, you know, and, uh, we there were things happening. Clubs, restaurants, [01:37:00] whatever you wanted. It was going on. And it wasn't a hidden community, though. I have to say that the first club I ever went to, like in about 78 even in Vancouver, it was, you know, Mafia Butch Dyke at the and taking the money. And then inside it was all dark, dark, dark, you know, practically black walls and things so that no one would recognise you and you wouldn't recognise anyone you know or [01:37:30] something. But, um I I was still in Vancouver, so that would have been about 82 when there was the first. If you can believe this, how long ago the first, uh, lesbian like cafe that was above ground and had windows that you could go and you actually there would be the light in it. And like, actual Doesn't that sound stupid? I mean, I remember going on a silent march [01:38:00] in about 1980 maybe even before, uh, for lesbian rights and to just men just throwing beer bottles at us. It was so stupid and, you know, making stupid, uh, you know, this whole idea that, you know, they could solve it for you? They had it in their pants. It was so stupid, you know, It was just so stupid. [01:38:30] I mean, that it was too much to understand that redefining masculinity might be good for men as well as women. You know, like that it didn't have to be exclusionary. And then and oh, I have to say this just in case we ever forget it, and we'll never get to it. I have never You know how lesbians were seen as man so much. Or maybe stuff I've never known people who hated men as much as straight women. There is no one [01:39:00] because lesbians don't depend on guys by and large. So, like the men who are in my friends, they're my friends, right? I choose them. Whatever hurdles they have to leave. Not that many, but, you know, whatever I said, they don't let me down all the time. They don't, because if that would happen, I wouldn't be around. Right. So, uh, I mean, rather than lesbians being mans, I never go to a lesbian dinner and guys are disgust. You go out with straight women. All they talk [01:39:30] about is how they're getting fucked over by God, you know, like so I just think who are the man haters, You know, who are the people who depend on these men and who just failed by them? I'm not saying all of them failure, but the ones who do those women tell stories about them. So, I, I just think it's that whole double speak we have, you know, God of love. Or, you know, not if you're Jewish, man. You know, like we have different views. [01:40:00] Uh, you know that. You know, it's just like, uh, that whole labelling of something and it and it's and it's almost 100 80 degrees different from what? From what? Uh, from the label. And that's of course, what's both fun and different and somewhat challenging about living gay or living Jewish or living all of that is you have to understand what the riff is [01:40:30] that's gone. And then you also do your analysis of it. So you're working on multiple levels, which is fun, right? I mean, and it's a game, and being a lawyer is the same. Uh, I mean, my last big relationship was with a woman who was a poet, and we've been together for 12 years, and it was we both love words. You know, The spin of words is fantastic, you know? And that kept our relationship going for quite a while. Just our love of words. Um [01:41:00] oh, I have to say just a couple more things which are probably I didn't come out because I was a political lesbian. I came out because I like fucking with women, and, uh, I enjoyed it, and I didn't come out because I I didn't enjoy men. Um, also, I enjoyed women more just because they didn't kind of the men of my generation who were straight I. I didn't have that many to be able to, um, you know, this is not a quantitative [01:41:30] survey, but, um, qualitatively, they went into automatic, and they just kind of went for themselves and some all too often, too quickly. So I mean that, uh, it was better sex. That's what kept them going. It had nothing to do with, um, uh, kind of Andrea's analysis of, uh, Widman and pornography, though that legitimated things and made me understand certain things. But I really [01:42:00] came out for for sex. And, uh, I think that was a problem because, uh, my kids would never begrudge me to their father, But they did think that maybe I didn't have to be scouting around on the, you know, um, you know, looking for action. And, um, you know, we've been I was so much more a matron in my twenties and in my thirties, like, um, you know, And when [01:42:30] I graduated from university, if you didn't, if you weren't married, you had to go and live at home. You you weren't allowed to live in an apartment, you know, like at least none from my family. Like, you know who was ever going to do that? I've been living, you know, in a dorm or whatever, for four years. You just like women really had limited options. And, um, you know, I, uh marriage [01:43:00] Was your ticket out too? And, uh, so I took her and that That's one reason I couldn't stay out. I mean, I really admire those women. Uh, when I was 16, who didn't come, you know who who stayed gay. And you know, those women we found out were lesbian virgins. You know, I could never claim that I I'd been made love [01:43:30] with the men. Uh, more than one. So I, uh you know, I. I don't think when I read about the lesbian lives of the forties and, you know, working in class Buffalo, New York, and those lily and fatter and things it's one thing opting into the wealth of the, uh, left bank. You know, in the 19 thirties and all those women, uh, who had [01:44:00] lots of money. But, uh, I would never have been one of those women in. I just see where if I read Leslie Feinstein or, you know, Stone Butch Blues, it's It was too hard. I. I really don't know if I would have come out into that harshness. Um I mean, I, I and I think I also wanted to have Children. At that point. It seemed impossible to do both. And, [01:44:30] uh, but yeah, I. I, uh I really pay tribute to those women. They were, you know, And so all of that stuff about roles not role for I mean, they lived as well they could, You know, in, uh uh, Now we have so much more so many more options. We have a continuum of behaviours. We can, and we can be anybody we want. And I have to say, I don't believe I was born to [01:45:00] be a lesbian. I That's one thing where Nigel and I really disagreed. He believed that he was born gay and that his choice was to accept it or not. Um, I think I could have been anything, but I think my family's experiences allowed me to see that. You know, it's a post modern world, right? I, uh II I knew there were layers and layers [01:45:30] and so I never believed like I think that's the worst thing about Christianity. Is believing that there's one right way? No, or and that everything's literal. I mean, I know a lot of Christians don't believe that, but, uh, you know, like, that's a that's things are multi and multi. And the question for me, my law question my everything question is who benefits? Who benefits from the choices made who benefits from the priorities made? That's [01:46:00] what I wanna know it does. It's not like the law comes down from Mount Mount Sinai, and it has to be that way. It could be a lot of ways. So what does it tell us about power? That it's that way? And of course, they sell. It's like, Look, we now know how many animals are gay or at least bisexual, right? I mean, but it was like nobody else just, you know, I mean, all of that were just lies, [01:46:30] right? And the Catholic Church, like, which projects this demon of gays when they're the ones doing it, All these Children, I mean, that's a little bit what I mean by double speak. It's just like the ogres that we have, you know, or like right, right. It's all about power and we can deconstruct. And those are my questions, like, Why is it like this? Not what's [01:47:00] the right answer, but why does it have to be like that? Why can't it be that something else? Why can't our vision at least be incorporated? Or if it isn't? Let's at least name that it isn't when When the quilter case came out, I was teaching. Um you know, I taught Fam. I have I'm still teaching a family law for 23 24 years at university. When the quilter case first came out, I was walking [01:47:30] to school or I'd heard it just before I was walking into class and I got in. I can't remember exactly where it was. And I said to these kids, Go to the registry and get your money back. You deserve to be taught by a full human being. And the Court of Appeal of New Zealand has decided I'm not one and I walked out of the car. I mean, forget it. I'm not gonna talk [01:48:00] this crap. They've just decided that the relationships I have aren't worthy of being recognised. Sure, I have a whole analysis of heterosexual marriage. I know how conservative it is. You know that I do meant I would whenever whenever or meant all of that crap. But nobody's going to tell me that I'm not as good as someone else. And all of the consequences. [01:48:30] Firstly, in this country leads leads to kids killing themselves. Suicide of gay kids for no reason. Except for this view. There's one right way, and all the animals are heterosexual and blah, blah, blah. No one can believe that. I have to say that however many resentments my Children might have, and I'm sure they have some. They could be anybody [01:49:00] they wanted, just not rapist, right? But anybody they wanted and I would support them. And I don't think it's good for kids to have that. And I wonder why people don't realise how these views are hurting their Children. So because I'm I'm still interested. [01:49:30] You know, I used to believe that they wouldn't care. Like the family court wouldn't care about battered women. I'd seen enough of that. You know, I was married for 22 years before rape within marriage was a crime. We're not talking 18 40. We're talking. I'm sitting in front of you. I was married in 1964. It was 1986 [01:50:00] in this country before rape within marriage was a crime. Not till 1993 did the House of Lords say that rape within marriage was a crime. How is it different that I have that perspective? How does that colour how I see them? You know, one time I was sent to this meeting of [01:50:30] Lord Deans like Ethel Benjamin was admitted to the bar in 18 91. She was the first woman in the Commonwealth. That's when New Zealand saw ahead. And we didn't have a high Court woman judge until Sylvia Cortright became that in 1993 it was given as a suffrage present, you know? So 100 2 years before a woman [01:51:00] went to the high court, rape cases are have to be heard in the high Court. So 100 2 years before any woman had any voice of authority in a rape case, I mean, that's incredible. Can we really believe there wasn't even one intelligent enough woman during that 102 years to outpace a guy in appointments? [01:51:30] I said something that sounded like that at the meeting and this guy who was the dean of law at Canterbury, he came over and he said to me, Ruth, you you just don't have patience. Look how everything's changed in such a short time. Look, you know, like right, you weren't even people in 1929 and you look at this and the Human Rights Act I said to him, John, [01:52:00] you know, it's interesting. It's We could quantify your level of patience and that would represent your male privilege. I myself had no more patience. I've worked against battering for my whole life. My mother was my first battered woman, you know, for most, uh, women who work in women's refuge. That's the truth. [01:52:30] But nobody says that right? My mother was the first battered woman I ever dealt with, right? Hello. I, uh I don't have patience. I'm not sure for all of this work. Luckily, I have very nice sons and I. I think my daughter has a very good relationship. But I have friends whose daughters are still being beaten up, [01:53:00] whose grandchildren are still being exposed to all of this violence who are learning to be violent themselves. 70% of boys who grow up in homes where their mother is being abused will become abusers. The primary determinant of whether a boy is an abuser is whether his father was an abuser. People learn their social dispute resolution skills in the kitchen. [01:53:30] You know, it needs to stop. I thought I would stop it. I didn't. And, uh, I forgiven myself for that for a long time. I had our time When I saw it wasn't changing. Totally because I thought that was what I had done to make it worthwhile that I survived. But it's not gonna happen. It's too much of an investment in, uh, misogyny [01:54:00] and now, homophobia. We see too much of them.

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TITLE: Lesbian heritage walk (Auckland)
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VOICES: Miriam Saphira
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 161 Club; 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; AIDS Support Network; Amy Kane; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Bitches Witches and Dykes (magazine); Broadsheet (magazine); Bruce Burnett; Charlotte Museum; DNA (Auckland); Daisy Isaacs; Freda Stark; HIV / AIDS; Hero (Auckland); KG Club (Auckland); Kamo (Auckland); Karangahape Road; Kiss (Auckland); Les Girls (Auckland); Lesbian Feminist Circle; Lesbians in Print (LIP); Lew Pryme; Midnight Club (Auckland); Miriam Saphira; Oakley Hospital (Auckland); Pride; Sapphic Star; Sinners (Auckland); Tamaki Makaurau Lesbian Newsletter; The Box (Auckland); The Women's Bookshop; Tuesday Club (New Plymouth); Women's Centre (Auckland); alcohol; books; butch; chain anklet; children; community; discrimination; drugs; education; feminism; femme; gay liberation movement; herstory; history; homosexual law reform; identity; language; lesbian; makeup; mental health; mental illness; police; politics; safe sex; social; teaching; violence; visibility; wedding; women
DATE: 9 February 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Ponsonby, Ponsonby, Auckland
CONTEXT: In this podcast Miriam Saphira takes a tour group around some of the historic lesbian sites in central Auckland. A special thank you to the Charlotte Museum for allowing us to record this walk.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Ah, I'm Miriam. Sara. I'm the secretary of the Charlotte Museum Trust. And we're on the corner of Pons Road in Collingwood Street, and we're going to do the lesbian heritage walk, so we're going to head off down Pons Road. So here we are, 161. So during the late eighties, I think it was, um I don't know that I actually have a, uh, absolute date, but, um, I think it was sort of 89 round or might have been [00:00:30] 87. 88. 89 round About that time, this was 161 road, a lesbian bar upstairs. And that was a club that was called 11161. And it was set up by Elaine. Tim. She had gone away originally, she and and her former partner, Sharon ran the Empire Hotel, and it was notorious in the early eighties. And that's where Red Beryl played, and it was packed at nights. And it was a fairly outrageous pub. [00:01:00] Um, but we always had a great time. And then they, um, split up. Um, the whole complex was sold, and, of course, the Alex was demolished. Uh, a lovely old heritage hotel that we lost. But she set up and, uh, and ran a a sort of cabaret type restaurant called Tim up in Grey and and, um, a motel there. But sadly, that went broke, and several lesbians got burnt and lost money. [00:01:30] So there was a bit of soundness in a small community. That's what happens. And she went overseas. Um, then she came back after the Tim episode and set up 161. But it lasted for about nine months, or this means very good at coming to new things, and then they fade away and go back to knitting tea, cosies or polishing the silver or whatever they bloody do. Um, so that, um, demised. Maybe it was just over a year [00:02:00] and the 18 months and then that closed. So that closed more probably for attendance and financial problems. Um, one of the things is that lesbians don't have a big capacity for alcohol. We tend to fall over if we drink too much. And so raising money through alcohol to pay the rent is always tricky for lesbians. And it's always been a problem because we've always had to get the money to pay the rent, so we've always sold alcohol. [00:02:30] But in the seventies, with the KG Club, we couldn't get a licence because no woman could get a licence to sell alcohol. So of course the police would raid it. So Beach Road was probably the most notorious KG club. But we will be going and seeing as we go along our walk the very first two places where the KG Club began. And so I'll talk a bit more about the KG Club. But just to give you a bit of a background about why it was so difficult for lesbians to get together, [00:03:00] there was also an enormous amount of discrimination. And some of you mightn't realise that lesbianism was considered a mental illness up until 1973. Now you cannot change psychiatrists mind overnight, so they were still doing nasty treatments in the mid seventies. ECT insulin shock reading. Some of the files from Oakley are shocking of what they did to women. Um, a couple of us managed to get access to archival files for a while. She had proper [00:03:30] access, legitimate access. I didn't quite have legitimate access, but, um and it was interesting. The very early files in the 19 hundreds would talk about, UM, problems of deep depression and so on, and a Manish woman or the third sex or sometimes uranium was used. But mostly it was Manish Features or Manish Behaviour. Um, was the sort of tick box, but they when treated the depression, they treated the presenting symptoms. But once you got [00:04:00] the Second World War and the need to breed more cannon fodder, I say cynically for the next war. Then the emphasis was on, You know that everyone needed to to start having Children and so lesbianism The whole mental illness thing was emphasised, and that was the influence of the United States. After the Second World War was a big no no to be lesbian, you needed to be breeding. And so things got much tougher in mental hospitals. They ignored presenting [00:04:30] symptoms and started to try change people's sexual orientation with disastrous consequences. And some people are still living with those consequences today, and it's very, very hard. So I think with that in mind, it gives us an idea of how sort of almost like fugitives lesbians were in the sixties and seventies to try and get any sort of sense of community or or meet each other, you could lose your job and all those sorts of things. [00:05:00] This was the very first Women's Centre in Auckland, and while it wasn't portrayed, of course with that it was about 1973. Wasn't portrayed as lesbian lesbians, gravitated to it anywhere where there were women. And so, um, at one point there was a great controversy because one of the women who was a very lonely lesbian wanted to contact other women, other lesbians, and she came to the Women's Centre and when they discovered [00:05:30] she was a police woman, they did not want her there. So this was originally, um, it sold secondhand stoves and repaired stoves and then it became the women took over. And one of the photographs here in your brochure is actually outside this, um, first Auckland Women's Centre there. So, um, a lot of that history is just word of mouth and not recorded, and we [00:06:00] have struggled trying to name people in the photographs because there were lots of PE P schemes in those days that kept organisations running, which sadly, we don't have today and so we miss out on a lot of sort of internships, so to speak. Um, so we'll walk on a second. The Women's Centre is further up the road. Um, and that has been revamped. But I'll point out an old villa of what it looked like and tell you a little bit. When we get there, we will be walking past the Women's Bookshop. [00:06:30] And just while there's a lull on the traffic, I'll say, um, the Women's Bookshop is on our map because it has the largest collection of lesbian books and probably New Zealand, if not Australasia. So here's the the Women's Bookshop, the largest collection of lesbian books for sale, and we've got a new lesbian novel, New Zealand lesbian novel being launched. There was one last year. One a year [00:07:00] is pretty amazing. Let's hope we can keep it up because overseas I spend some time in the winter time I go over to Europe, and it's interesting that there's not a lot of lesbian books being published in People's Home countries. But, um, and here it is in the window. So McLeod's lesbian novel, and it gives you a good setting of what it was like in the sixties. So it's well worth a read. Um, because things were difficult and they were mostly [00:07:30] networks. You could only if you could find one other lesbian. Then you could ask them to dinner or meet up with them somehow. And that's how you sort of networked and school teachers did that quite a lot. School teachers and nurses were often two distinct network groups and different groups. Of course, when you broke up, of course, then you there was a split into two more groups, and so it went on. So I think the book's going [00:08:00] to be a good read and nothing's changed at all. Maybe the Jean Paul figure go to that. But I do want to hear her reading. Oh, now this isn't number 63. Number 63 is this new building. So the old women's centre number 63 was a villa a bit like this set back from the road. It wasn't as smart as this. It was a City Council building. [00:08:30] It was in poor repair. It was damp. We had a homeless lesbian living on the veranda. At one point then she was living in the house and people couldn't get her out, and there were various controversies. But it was this, well, the first Women's centre, where rape crisis first started its bounding, but it was really set up to go in. Number 63. Support line for Women was set up by Trish Dempsey. Um Rape Crisis, a group [00:09:00] of women, mostly lesbian, set up rape crisis. Of course, they were faced with attacks by men. There's always been attacks on lesbians, sometimes by family members called corrective rape. Raping the lesbian to try and make us straight. There's always been these sort of acts of violence, and I was just saying before the police would often just harass you if you looked like two lesbians in the street, Um, and particularly one couple I know [00:09:30] they got arrested a couple of times, just through police harassing them until one of them lost to call. Um, they did get their own back by stuffing the blankets down the toilets of the cells and flooding the whole police station. But so there were some lighter moments, and the judge actually let them off because he could see that they were arrested in the first place. There was no need to have, in fact, intervened with these two women walking down the street in the lower part of town. So [00:10:00] having 60 at the Women's Centre and having these support groups set up here made a big difference because it offset the sort of drinking culture that the KG Club had sort of firmly established to pay the rent. Um, and to dodge the police as they tried to close it down. Yes, the KG Club er will becoming a It's OK, Look, there's lots of argument about what KG stands for. Um, [00:10:30] some of the older women always said it was stood for camp girls, but it was first set up on road. And that's how I understood it. It stood for heavy girls. Um, the first, we will come to those two, buildings, so I'll talk about them when we get to there. But that was set up in about 1973. Um, and the Charlotte Museum is named after two of the charlottes who were on that, um, first, those first committees that [00:11:00] set up and dodged, um, police on the one hand, and angry landlords wanting overdue rent on the other. Um, so it was always difficult. They had, um actually, a friend of Sandra Coney used to hire out, um, the jute box the juke boxes were notorious of. You could stand there trying to choose a tune, and the cockroaches would be running over the, uh, over the titles. So, um, one of the places, the one we can't walk to because there's some beach road. It's a bit far to walk today. [00:11:30] And the heat. But it had a couple of boards missing on the floor where the landlord had just nailed turnover and you were dancing. You had to sort of circumvent these patches on the on the floor. It was upstairs, there was a motorbike shop down below, but that it, um, had quite a reputation of, um, activity. Um, but again, it was targeted by traffic for drunken driving. They would wait outside, and [00:12:00] I remember I went to pick up my girlfriend one night. I was stopped by the cops here. Sure, I'd been drinking. I'd had one drink, so I knew I wasn't over. And in those days, it was much more lax than it is now. I had been working on, uh, an S a for university, and I'd just gone about midnight to go and pick my girlfriend up. Who was on the committee? Um, of the KG Club. And he, um, went round. And when he saw a pro abortion sticker on my car, he kicked every tyre. So [00:12:30] I knew he was anti feminist and so on, and he took my keys. The police argued with him when I went to get my house key off, and they could see that I wasn't drunk or anything and argue with this cop. But he insisted that he had the right to have my keys taken off me. So we actually got attacked by on the taxi stand that night trying to get a taxi home. Um, I got punched in the head by three sailors, but we did manage to get home the next morning. I went to get my keys and they couldn't find them at the City Council. [00:13:00] And so the I describe I said, he he normally rides a motorbike and he's overweight. Um, and he's very He's anti abortion and anti feminist antiwomen. I think. Oh, I know who that is, she said instantly. I'll ring him up now he'd been on night shift, so she delighted in, ringing him up, and the keys were in his pocket. I thought it was all a bit dodgy myself. Um, and I But I didn't make a complaint. I worked [00:13:30] for the Justice Department, and while they were very happy about me being in unsafe places, um, they I I didn't ever want to cause any trouble. I was supporting five Children on my own, so I keeping my head down as much as I could as much as I was able to. So, anyway, this next door, sort of in the back there was a big garden with 63. So we had in the summer. It was nice to have activities out, and we sometimes had picnics [00:14:00] in the garden, and, um and there was a support line and and quite a lot of support things going on for women. It was a big move from a desert beforehand, just for women, let alone, and the lesbians sort of tried to tag on and get a few things. Um, yes, there was, um, there was a print shop down in, um that put out a lesbian. First of all circle [00:14:30] came out of Wellington and then there was I can't remember now which order they go in. But there were various lesbian newsletters. There was bitches, witches and dykes. A very feminist one. There was dyke news. There was lip lesbians in print that came out of the Prince Centre. That was in, um, what's the name of the street in parallel to Nelson? Union Street? That's right. And that that print shop was run by lesbians. And so we've managed to get a photograph [00:15:00] of them at the press and put them on. Uh, we've got a media banner at the Lesbian Museum Charlotte Museum, and we've managed to fit one of those pictures on amongst all the old lesbian magazines from the twenties that we found, um, photographed from the archives in Berlin. So, um, sadly, New Zealand didn't seem to They was a lesbian group in the twenties in New Plymouth. I have a photograph of that simply because my mother was in there with [00:15:30] my maths teacher's arm around her. I'm not quite sure the history of this that one can remain decided, I suppose, Um and so I have that photograph and that was called the Tuesday Club, and they used to meet in Betty McDonald's hairdressing salon for, um, gin and tonics on a Tuesday. So that was an early network. But we don't actually have any other information, really. Other than, um, Auckland woman who's in her eighties now [00:16:00] told me that wearing an anklet, a little chain anklet on your ankle was a sign that you were interested in women showing a bit of ankle. Yes, this was in the twenties and thirties, and it was possibly more given her background, the Dance Theatre sort of network. I'm not sure that teachers went to wearing ankles, so I think it was the stair across the staff room that did it. Talking about the gays [00:16:30] GAZ let you know we actually haven't got device mentioned on our map. But I should point out that, um, device was actually set up at the very beginning by two lesbians. Very entrepreneurial. So, um um, so it's probably worth us remembering that device is here now, and, um and it's part [00:17:00] of our rich tapestry of lesbian life. Really? Price is now in second. Well, this is marked on your map as Western Park and it has an interesting history. Of course, we had a, um, VIP stand on the corner of West Park where the buildings sinking, you know, sinking civilization over there. Um, it's all because of the hero parade, of course, that those buildings have sunk into the ground. Um, [00:17:30] so that was where the stand to see the hero parade when it started. Um, going down road. Of course, most people think that was the only parades in Auckland. But we did start off having gay rights marches down Queen Street. We were much braver and bolder in the early days, I think much more radical as we marched up and down Queen Street with people throwing insults at us and so on. But we didn't care. We just marched on. And we had a great solidarity [00:18:00] in that those early fights. And then, of course, the hero parade was much more flamboyant. And people have possibly forgotten that it was really set up in a way almost a flaunt sexuality. Because of the AIDS crisis. We wanted people not to be whatever they did, even if it was a bit dodgy. From our point of view, whatever they did was OK so that they would just start using condoms and be safe. And unless we could get that message across to people, we would lose [00:18:30] lots, lots more people. And New Zealand was very lucky in the fact that Bruce Burnett came back from San Francisco early enough to set up the Aid Support Network and get some of us involved. I mean, I got involved because they could use my my degree. I hadn't finished my PhD then, but, um, I had two, diploma in clinical psyche and a diploma in educational psyche and my master's and nobody else had a qualification. So they needed some academic sort of stuff. Even though the university didn't really like me much [00:19:00] because they were frightened, I'd pull the blow. The whistle on sexual harassment was their worry. I gathered later on, Um, anyway, that was really the reason why those those hero parades started and why they were perhaps overly sexualized from today's point of view. But it was really, really important then, for people not to be ashamed of what they might do wherever they might do it. We put stickers up in public toilets and all sorts of things to try [00:19:30] and get it across to men. For goodness sake, be safe. And we made a big difference in terms of our population of HIV. Um and it was Yes, it was worth worth being criticised for being so out there and blatant. Um, but people have often forgotten those earlier marches and the earlier work that was done in terms of getting gay rights even spoken about and putting them on the map. The first meeting in Auckland [00:20:00] on homosexual law reform was in 1969. I remember that because I was very pregnant with my son and I went along there in the hope that I might meet a lesbian. Um and they all seem to be do good in doctors, I thought. But I didn't really know what a lesbian looked like. I thought they were short. Like Andrea. Well, it's said in every man's encyclopaedia that homosexuals had arrested development. That's why I thought you were all sure I came from the country. [00:20:30] I mean, I didn't wasn't very socialised, you know, I didn't think other than what was written. I couldn't see that it might mean something. Well, I I that's why I went to university. Well, that was 69. I was doing Japanese at university. I still with the short things, you know, those little characters and so on. Little dots here and there. So it was, um Yeah, it took [00:21:00] me a while to trudge through psychology. And then I was horrified that we never all that as years of study And I never got one lecture on emotions and I started working with violent offenders who was all emotion up set an angry bunch of policemen. You know, it's classic. Anyway, The other thing about Western Park, the hero parade there across here are school girls holding hands saying a little nicer is to one another. And nowadays they start to think early am I am [00:21:30] I. I have a strong feeling, a little crush on my best friend In those early days, it probably didn't occur to many of us until we were much later, Um that the crush was our first, our first beginnings of love. But of course, across the other side of the park is Auckland Girls grammar, and we have a slightly better view of it a bit further down the road Um and that is, of course, where Charmaine Pountney taught, and to start with, she wasn't [00:22:00] so open. But after a disastrous breakup, I think I'll score you more or less. And then, um, she, um, became much more public as being a lesbian. But she was part of the old school of teachers who could lose their job if they were discovered to be lesbian. So it was all cloak and dagger stuff, like in those early days. She would never if I was going out to dinner with her friends and we invited her and her partner. No, no, she wouldn't come because Miriam so is there. She's so well known as a lesbian. [00:22:30] So sometimes I missed out on dinner parties, but private parties were OK. I could slip into those. She's working well. Just across there is Auckland Girls grammar, and this is one of their car parks. I'd always like to stop here because this is such a lovely haven in this part of Western Park. It's such a lovely dell, [00:23:00] um, lots of little nooks and crannies where people can sort of lie around in the sun and talk sweet nothings to each other. and so on. It's for all sexual orientations, so it's just a lovely part of the city to be so close. And I think we're very lucky to have these green spots, and it's not. There's plenty of deciduous trees, but it's not too overpopulated with what I call foreigners. You know, those European trees? I much prefer the cabbage trees and so on [00:23:30] and the natives. But that's just my bias, Um, and then we'll head up as soon as we can across the road there, go down a little bit and then across there to go up Hereford Street. And that's when the fun begins. Now, this was after the KG Club got closed down in Beach Road by the police, who [00:24:00] were very happy with themselves because they called a probation officer at being on unlicensed premises. I had only just left, so I would have had two from the Justice Department if I'd stayed. But, um, when the beach road closed down, some of the committee left. They had been charged with selling liquor without a licence, and so on. There were fines. Nobody had excess money. We all drove old cars. There was no one very rich in that community. [00:24:30] As I say, they teachers didn't go there because they might get labelled. Occasionally, feminists from broadsheet would go down the road to the KG Club, but always in a group. In fact, in K, Kenny's coming out story is really interesting that she the first time she went to the KG Club, she thought she would be pounced on. She was at university and still very virginal and only just sort of thinking she might be a lesbian. Um, so there were those sort of fears as well. Um, [00:25:00] so anyway, a woman, Diane Scott, who who works now in real estate, she and a group of women got to this place and rented it. It was quite a big space upstairs. She went upstairs, she got some fancy vinyl seats. I don't know where she got them from, but it was the place we'd ever been in. Um, it had pool tables, and in fact, it was one of the first times I heard of a lesbian wedding was just after they set up this club. They had this amazing, [00:25:30] um, elaborate wedding. I wasn't invited to it because I was seen as a bit sort of feminist. And also, I had all these Children. Um, and it was a a grand affair. One of them wearing, uh, they sort of quite butchered film. The wedding was, wasn't it one woman in a bride's outfit and the other one in a man's suit? Um, and it was certainly talked about, and everyone celebrated afterwards at the Hereford Street Club at here. [00:26:00] But I believe, and I can't remember how soon afterwards. But there was some trouble with money. Do you realise that everyone was poor? And I think taking from the night were too tempting for one woman who whipped off with all the proceeds and headed to Australia. And so that caused a big split as anyone who was still friends with her and those sort of, you know, na na na na na. Sort of going on, um and so some feminists got [00:26:30] on to the committee and thought that they were able to straighten everything out. And, um, yeah, because of their politics, Of course, it, um they ended up destroying the club without them realising because someone who was feeling anti men at the time, which is often women working through rape issues and sexual abuse issues, family issues and so on. Do go through a period of time where they don't wish to have anything to do with men. Now, Dian [00:27:00] had per had actually cultivated the local beat cops. In those days, we actually had beat cops. I mean, it's unheard of today, just about so these policemen walked the beat and they keep denying it, and they knew they didn't have a licence, but she would invite them up and even give them a drink if they were willing to have one. And, of course, sometimes they did. Um I'm not saying whether they were on duty or not. Um, but, uh, so she had them. OK, But when the feminists took over and someone full of vitriolic about men, for whatever reason, [00:27:30] spatted them out the window, that was enough to them to decide to raid it and which they did and it closed down. So then it went from here to street to Albert Street, always for short term leases, often in financial difficulties of, uh, emotional difficulties or relationship not necessarily relationship relationship, but friendship type difficulties. [00:28:00] Working together as a group one of the things that you notice amongst older lesbians. They are fiercely independent. They've had to be to survive. And it's quite difficult. I know, falling in love at 70 with another 70 year old. We are very set in our ways from two different cultures. Uh, she's a hygiene queen and I'm the messiest person in town. I mean, it's Ah, yeah, this is where we live in two different countries. Um, but it shows [00:28:30] that the independence, it's actually quite hard to run a committee, too, because everybody has an idea and they think their idea is right. It's, um it is a challenge to work with volunteers and so on who have often fought and struggled. So they have quite set opinions about how things should be done, and it's good that they are solid and in that way, So as we walk up and around the corner and I'll just wave my hand in the direction of dog the dog's bollocks that used to be footsteps, uh, another [00:29:00] version of the KG Club after it had been to Street and Albert Street and where it went in between or several times down Kay Road as well which we walk past. I should point out that the prostitutes collectives across there, and that was set up for um, because of the AIDS crisis. So, um, and they've been there a long time now for a six, but it's not on your map, but it's pointed out to [00:29:30] you again. It's associated Now. We're coming down to 485, which is actually quite difficult to find. I've always struggled to find this building I never seem to remember. Once I do find it, I lose it again. But it was the broadsheet office and car, and Carol, the opera singer, used to live upstairs in one flat, and Jenny Rankin from the Tamaki Lesbian News lived in the other flat. They lived above the broadsheet office that was put out from there, and then it went to Dominion [00:30:00] Road. After that, yes, broad sheet wasn't a lesbian magazine, but it did have a lesbian articles from time to time, and it had one of the biggest lesbian splits in history in terms of trying to rent a space in in Road, and the Lesbian Art Workshop wanted to join forces. Now the Broad Sheet committee knew they had the lesbian art workshop would have no money, and so broad sheet would be carrying the can for the rent. And there would be too many political differences [00:30:30] and so on. So they they didn't take on the idea of the art workshop. And it caused this big split with the in the community and lesbians left broadsheet. But they hadn't written many things for broadsheet anyway. So So Sandy Hall and I, in fact, got a hard time, didn't we, Sandy, for staying on the collective, I thought, Why leave? You know, if you wanted to have a lesbian voice, you needed to stay on there. But then we were deemed not real lesbians because we had [00:31:00] Children. That so the broadsheet office was somewhere in this area, Um, in a building that looked a bit more like the wooden buildings over there. So of course, it was pretty easy to demolish. Um, I hope they never remove that building over there because we've lost so much of of, uh, Kay Road that has such a good history and such a good, [00:31:30] you know, front for the age of this area. So that's where the magazine was churned out. And at that point, there were lesbian articles being published in the magazine. That all changed when, um after the split, they took over a a place in ANZAC Avenue and, um, down on ANZAC Avenue. One day, some lesbians decided they didn't like the pawn shop at the bottom of ANZAC Avenue and went in on motorbikes and smashed the glass [00:32:00] and generally caused mayhem in the shop. And, of course, the police came immediately up to broad sheet. And I had bad pleb, which is an infection of the varas in my feet. So I had, um, some sandals on and my feet bandaged and bandages. So the police took one look at my feet and were highly suspicious that I've been kicking in glass had glass. So once I showed them what the problem was, they then, um but, uh, yes. [00:32:30] So, um, but there's always surprises. And one thing that amazed me was a police woman who was doing some voluntary work at the museum at the at the broadsheet office at the time because we had a sort of archives collection there. Um, I just couldn't believe it that she could just she took one look at the police and recognise them and gave a false name and address, and I was amazed it's to be able to do it with such for I would have gone. I need He went [00:33:00] bright red on her behalf, but fortunately I didn't cos I'm hopeless, I I absolutely hopeless of telling any fib whatsoever. I was just amazed. I mean, she went up just about put her on a pedestal to be able to do that. Go. So there was always something going on. So, uh, sure, if someone does the history of the Broadsheet magazine, it would make some interesting reading with the weaving in and out of lesbian histories and and out that. So we walked down here [00:33:30] along Cave Road. I won't talk quite so much. Um, there was a whole range of clubs, the sinners, Um, that was a lesbian bar for a while. And then there was kiss. By then, the climate had changed. We no longer took the lease on buildings. We rented a night in a bar, and it was often a Thursday night or a Sunday night. A night when it wasn't busy. And they would often then have male staff, so it had changed completely. It wasn't autonomous. It wasn't run by lesbians. [00:34:00] It was run by normal business. And they didn't last that long. Maybe a year or so, because, as I said, we don't drink enough. We don't buy enough alcohol, and we don't make it worth their while to pay their wages for their staff and to pay the rent so it dwindles out in a shop now and across the road. The DNA was actually called Carmos for many, many years, and there's Lesbian Group Pulse [00:34:30] had an art exhibition there. I think their first exhibition might have been there, called a one night stand, put it up one night and took it out the next day. But, um so that for a long time Carmo was a place that lesbians met for various. Um, I think it was a Sunday group, and they were on a Friday night. There was retro night of dollars. You could go in and and they had nice retro music, and they danced and met new girls, and it was a very good place for meeting people. [00:35:00] That's the value of the KG Club was an opportunity if you didn't have a partner to meet someone, that you might be able to have a relationship with them. I mean, I must admit, I met several of my partners at the KG Club, and there's a nice spot in my heart. It was, I guess, there towards the end of the nineties, lesbian started wearing lipstick, which was not a big no no from the feminist community. And the gay [00:35:30] girls didn't really bother much with lipstick. Um, the the gay girls who tended to be involved in the KG Club were more inclined to, um, play sport be sporty dikes, um, drink a lot of beer and, um, yes, generally, whereas the feminists were more inclined maybe to drink wine, um, and, uh, rave on all night about, uh, politics. So I used to have these parts, [00:36:00] Yes, that they would go off with a man they were, you know, often considered bisexual. If you wore lipstick, and you might just, um, two time your girlfriend and go off with a man because you wouldn't be able to resist him. You know, there was that sort of fear to everyone was terribly, terribly insecure, terribly insecure. Which didn't. Oh, yes. You couldn't have long hair either. Mine gradually got shorter and shorter and shorter. I only had long hair like yours simply because it's the cheapest haircut in town, isn't it? [00:36:30] I never used to have to have my hair cut. So, um, so But so when the lipstick lesbian started coming, you know, you could see that feminism was starting to not have such a a big influence on the lesbian community. Whereas the other community was more considered. There was a split between lesbians and gay girls. The gays were not so political. Um, some of they were often more out even [00:37:00] than the feminists. Some of them panel beaters and so on were very out in their trades. Um, and there weren't so many teachers and so on. But there were a few sporty teachers who sort of crossed over in the gay girls. Um, world so that that split was a bit reflected in the types of clubs that we had about, um, whether we had, you know, an emphasis on drinking and pool playing and maybe darts and things. [00:37:30] So anyway, we'll walk down here to where the Pride Centre was, which is now Rainbow you. So here's Rainbow Youth Room 281. And that was the original gay pride, not the original Gay Pride Centre. The second I think Gay Pride Centre was this the second one? There was one downtown that the star Open. And that was interesting that there were splits in political alliances. Like if you were involved [00:38:00] in the Pride Centre, then it meant that you mixed a lot more with gay men. Then you had the more staunch feminists who are more involved with, um, like a feminist magazine like broad sheet or a lesbian magazine like Tamaki McAra. Lesbian News, which is very lesbian and often was only circulated amongst lesbians, still is pretty much, um, yes. And so there were these different factions, and it probably is still today, there's different networks for different things. There's [00:38:30] some of us cross all sorts of boundaries, and others are more inclined to be just in one group. So we'll head down here to the first KG Club. And as we go past the as I said before the corner of the old family and naval was a bar called candy candy Girls. Um and before that it was something else, and before that, it was something else again. I think flirt used to be there as well, and flirt was downstairs across my family. Um, flits roamed around a bit, too, and flirt [00:39:00] just depends on the energy of Sarah Lambo to voluntarily set up and run those nights to have a dance night for lesbians. About once a month. She's It's now called Lipstick, and it's going to be in the switch bar and eagle. Yes, I had a drink in Eagle last night. I went over to the family and I couldn't hear myself even think it was so loud. Oh, I can't go to the well across the road where [00:39:30] the tattooed heart where it says the tattooed heart upstairs and you can see one person got left behind. Um, the KG Club first began. That was its very first beginning, and as far as people can remember, it was about 1972 73. No one seems to be able to remember the date when it first, and we don't seem to have many. I've got one page of committee meeting notes. That's all I've got that someone handed to me. So people were moved a lot. You didn't own houses [00:40:00] in those days. You rented and moving a lot when landlords put up the rent and things and or relationships broke up. So, um, lots of papers aren't kept, so we don't have a very good record of that. And some of the women have passed on. Um, I know Pat. Before she passed on, she looked for any information she had, but she didn't have any. Um, so that was the very beginning of the KG club. It was run by a committee, and they had to often almost borrow [00:40:30] money from each other or use their own money to buy liquor and then sell it on the next at the dance so that they could then get, um, enough money to pay the rent. There was always a struggle. Well, the police raided that down. I think they got into a few high jinks like getting out on the veranda and dancing there. And, um, you know, you can see it lends itself to a good party atmosphere, and I think it was too good a party, and that was put [00:41:00] a stop to it. But someone might have fallen off the route, which was also another problem. There was a problem with someone falling out the window of the KG Club at Beach Road. Um, the midnight club was further back. Um, that was another club. It was, uh, where the rainbow flags are just in the next building there. Um and there was a pussy. Was it? I've got a, um what was it called? Pu pussy Club or pussy? So [00:41:30] I I've got a, uh a key. It's the only way I remember the name. Um, yes, you had to be a member. Um, was it called the Pussy Club or the pussy? It was pussy something, and they probably served clip tails instead of cocktails, you know? No. Well, they came from originally from the box. The box was down off opposite the region hotel. There was a club called the box, and they tried to [00:42:00] auction the women one night. Well, that went down with the feminist, like, you know, a couple of cold. Really? Um, they didn't like it at all. So there was a big split, and that was a group of more lipstick type lesbians who were sort of out there. And but there was a bit of drug involvement in that, um, some of those clubs as well. So drugs off and on were a problem like Beech Road was the height of the Asian. So Beech Road, CG club of the heroin, um, [00:42:30] Mr Asia type things. And there were sex workers who were obviously using who used to come and have a drink with us and then go off and work to keep their habits. Um, and some of those people have more recently left sex work and rejoined the lesbian community or still being part of it. Really? But on the fringe, they're more involved now, Um, not mentioning any names, but, um um, so there were I think you have to remember when people are on the fringe of things and excluded. [00:43:00] It's very easy for them to get involved in other things. And lots of us had a past that we either drank too much or took drugs to try and block out the nasty things that had happened along the way. So we always have to remember that. So on to the 2nd 2nd incarnation of the KG Club, well, the door looks just about as dodgy as it did then, in 1974 [00:43:30] the I think it was. Towards the end of 74 the KG Club moved into what's now a wine cellar. Um, and that's where it remained until it went to be, got closed down and went to Beach Road. But for a long time, there were no problem here with, um the KG Club because the local policeman was an older policeman who felt that the women needed to have a place and he used to come and lock the gate to stop drunken men from coming in and arresting the women [00:44:00] so they they could leave out the side street and get out to Pitt Street that way. Um, so that actually probably helped for quite a long time. There were no arguments outside. People were more, um, respectful of the policeman, going to that much trouble and checking that they were all right and opening the gate and letting if he saw a woman that looked like or a couple mostly U came in couples, uh, or threesomes that he would see someone who looked as if they were heading to the KG club and he would let [00:44:30] them in. So there was a bit more protection than had ever been before. But sadly, he got probably moved on for being too cosy with the with the perverts, as they were called. Then, um, of course, that was the beginning. The gay liberation was when had applied to do her PhD at Hawaii University, got accepted and then couldn't get a visa. And she was labelled by the US Embassy as a pervert. And that really started gay liberation [00:45:00] in New Zealand. And we demonstrated up by Queen Victoria on our part. So we had our own. That was our sort of stone wall. Really. Well, I'm sorry I can't claim any lesbian history around Moses, but I always think he's a great statue to just admire as we walk through. It's a lovely walk down through here, and we will be walking past the Myers Park kindergarten, [00:45:30] and several of US lesbians used the Myers Park kindergarten to look after our Children while we were at university as well as the university creche. Because there was shortage of space at the university creche who was so it was so such a demand for child care. This was, um, into the 79 through to, um, the mid eighties. It was. And then they set up a second creche towards the end of the eighties. So I will say about Myers Park. The whole of this was donated by the Myers family, [00:46:00] and one of their family was one of us. Backstage was set up by Stan. I've forgotten Stan's other name, but he was often called Stella anyway. But he was a very manly man to have a female named Stella. I always thought, and he went with Lou Prime, the rock and roll singer from they set up this bar. They were quite misogynist. They didn't really like women there, but because their bar was illegal, we had, um you had to be a member, so I still have [00:46:30] my backstage membership. Um, you paid an entrance fee that was quite steep at the time. I can't remember now how much it was 10 or $15. But you got free drinks now. The drinks were definitely dodgy. I think they were alcohol mixes with probably Rum essence or something. Um, I never drank any of those, but, um, even the gin didn't really taste like gin. I don't think a juniper would be near it. So, um Anyway, the interesting [00:47:00] times, um we came out the back, went in and in and out through the back here, and this used to be the traffic department, and all the cops were here as we staggered out to get into our cars and drive away. It was a very interesting, um, conflict of interest. But they really no one really got harassed by the traffic cops. That was interesting. I suppose if you could walk a reasonable straight line to your vehicle, they let you go. I can't [00:47:30] even walk a straight line when I'm sober. So it would have Anyway, I never got harassed here. Um, though I did sometimes at the door. Sometimes if Stan was on the door, he was often very grumpy, and he didn't like women coming in. But it was interesting. I I had a, um a girlfriend at the time who was an artist. And, um, it was just a brief, uh, relationship. But sitting there, I suddenly got, um a man stopped and started to talk to me, [00:48:00] and I keep thinking I think I must know him, but I couldn't quite remember. The lights were low and the drinks were ghastly. And, um, anyway, he said that I looked at I used to be, you know, you can see I'm white now, but I was blondish. Yeah, a bit of a bleach blonde, I think, at that point. Um, Anyway, um, he said I looked like his daughter Vanessa, and it turned out, you know, he was Michael Redgrave. And he thought I look like Vanessa [00:48:30] Redgrave. Well, made my night. I think my girlfriend was a bit more enthusiastic after that, and he insisted on buying us drinks. And then when he realised I had Children, he sort of shared a lot more about us. And then some very handsome looking gay man whisked him away. So, um, I was not his high point of the night, that was for sure. So this was an interesting conversation, and we look back up there to Cook Street where the police station is in rendezvous. [00:49:00] Um, Cook Street had, of course, the famous Cook Street market lesbians had stalls there, and it was a great sort of meeting place. Having coffee was just becoming the norm. It was the early days of drinking coffee in New Zealand. Um, Cook Street was a fabulous place, and there's a whole history of coffee drinking actually in New Zealand, because the first coffee bar was actually set up by a Jewish refugee in Hamilton. And the coffee was made from acorns because there was no coffee [00:49:30] imported into New Zealand during the war, and that was set up in 1939. So, um, uh, chicory then was, of course, used for coffee for a long time. Chicory essence was then available, but, um, so Cook Street was a fabulous place, and of course, there were above at the top of Cook Street. Uh, on the top of the building was a nightclub or car lay girls. Um, and that was a drag show, and that was fairly notorious, too. And it's interesting that they [00:50:00] were so close. I'll just ignore that, um, so close to the police station. The other thing is that, um, one of the pickup places for gay men was, in fact, Princess Street, right, um, at Albert Park. And there was the original police station on Princess Street, where the Maidment Theatre is now, so it's often right under the noses of the law. [00:50:30] Further down here, after backstage across the way was Moo's, another nightclub, and further up the street was the Shakespeare Hotel, where Adele Bridges, um, played the piano, mostly playing covers. Um, and it was a great night. Up to 200 lesbians, gay men, drag queens, Japanese seamen and a few sex workers thrown in. It was always a nice sort of mix and the same and every gay bar in Christchurch And, uh, and in Wellington, [00:51:00] the same sort of history that makes the people who couldn't fit in. Yes. So, um yeah, that was, um, part of our history. And, um, I think Adele came back from London in 1968 and began playing in the hotel about that time 68 69. So it was very, very early days of any sort of sense of community coming together. So we wander on down there to the [00:51:30] So we finish our walk at the Stark bar, which is named after Frieda Stark, who was involved in a murder trial in the 19 thirties when the husband of her lover, Thelma Mario, was killed by Frank. I think his name was who poisoned her with a sleeping draught and killed her. And so Frida was the witness for that murder trial. And we do do a Frieda Stark walk for the Heritage Festival [00:52:00] as well as the lesbian walk. Now, Frida danced in the Civic Theatre. She danced naked just in gold paint, which was you had to get it off you fairly quickly because it was bad for your health. Um, for the GIS, um, from America. So she was famous. She was a tiny the person, and later Amanda Rees, who works now on Shortland Street. She, um, did a play, um, or performance. I think you might call it called Star. [00:52:30] Um, so we have, um we have a whole a little book we put out on the history of Lesbian Theatre. And, of course, fried, uh, fits in with that very well in terms of performance. But also the founding members of Theatre in New Zealand were two lesbians called Amy Kane and Daisy Isaacs. They were the founding members of Theatre in New Zealand, and they used to play in an orchestra with Catherine Mansfield. So we have these amazing networks when we can get enough money to do some research to [00:53:00] find it out. And that was just an amazing discovery. Um, and we've since discovered we had a photograph of Amy Kane for our book on the Lesbian Theatre. But we've now discovered that there's a photograph of a Daisy Isaacs that I can now get from, uh, Alexander Turnbull. So it's another little letter to write and money to find, and so on. But so it's great to have these bits of history. And if you sometimes the the Civic is open and if you go upstairs, there is a box there with some [00:53:30] memorabilia from Preta Stark's Dancing Days. So that's always worth if you come to a show here if it's locked. Um, I've tried several times with these walks to get in there, and I've never managed it at the time. But, um, sometimes if you're going to a show, just fish the films or something popped up and have a look at, um, the memorabilia from free to start. Yes, we could arrange it, but I think we've got plenty to do. Well, I usually stop here and have a coffee, but it's up to you people what you want to do and disperse [00:54:00] and how you get back to Kay Road I If I If you are walking back, may I suggest that you walk across and over, um, up the Hope Town Bridge because it's actually really pretty walking up that way, and it's away from the traffic and it's slightly quicker. Yeah, OK, it's fine. No.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089515
TITLE: Neville Creighton profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Neville Creighton
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1930s; 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; AIDS Support Network; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Bible; Bob Harvey; Brett Sheppard; Bruce Burnett; Chris Carter; Christianity; Encounter movement; Fifth Season Garden Group; Fran Wilde; Gayline (Auckland); Glenfield College; HIV / AIDS; Heroic Gardens; Kate Leslie; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Maryan Street; Mike Pohl; Neville Creighton; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand Herald; OUTLine NZ; Otago; Queen's Service Medal (QSM); Ray Taylor; Rob Grant; Rod Ellis-Pegler; Rule Foundation; STI; Shanti Project; Tony Hughes; Tony Katavich; Venn Young; Warren Freer; Warren Lindberg; Westside Sauna; adoption; age of consent; beats; celebrant; children; church; civil unions; coming out; communication; cottaging; counselling; discrimination; education; entrapment; equality; faggot; faith; gay; gay liberation movement; homophobia; homosexual law reform; identity; language; law; marriage; marriage equality; police; prevention; relationships; religion; safe sex; saunas; sex; sex-on-site venues; spirituality; support; teaching; volunteer
DATE: 4 February 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Neville talks about his background, becoming the first Director of the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, secondary school teaching, and managing the Gayline counseling service.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I was born in 1931 in Otago and spent, um all my life in Otago until I finished university in 52 um, and then went to Auckland for teacher training, Um, and more or less of, uh, and stayed there for quite a while. Teaching then moved around the country in various places. Fielding, um, [00:00:30] then back to the again. And, uh, then after marriage, moving to other places growing up in the 19 thirties and the 19 forties. Were you aware of kind of homosexuals or nothing? Nothing. Looking back, I can see it, but no, nothing. So what? Looking back what? What? What can you see? I'd see my interests, um, [00:01:00] was certainly not with girls. Uh, I very seldom went out with a girl. And if I had an occasion which demanded a partner, Um, and I just put that down to shyness. Uh, I didn't know how to manage that. Uh and so on. Um, was it ever talked about, like in the family or was never talked about anywhere? It was so completely not a forbidden subject. It was just not not [00:01:30] a subject at all, and and of course, it was going on, but, uh, those of most of us didn't know. In fact, I would say that 90 95% of the population didn't know. So when did you know within yourself That that something might be up? Probably not until I was in my thirties. Yeah, my thirties. You know, after I was married. Yeah, I had no consciousness of it until then. [00:02:00] And what happened? Oh, just, uh, gradually, I realised that I was in the wrong place and, uh, not unhappy, but it wasn't quite the place I expected it to be. And, um, just developed gradually from there and a little bit of exploration here and there. And until I realised what was what did you feel when you started having those feelings? Did you feel kind of like torn? Was this something [00:02:30] that you kind of reacted against or, uh, yes, I guess it was the same sort of feelings that, um uh, young guys have when they start masturbation and believe that it's evil. Yeah, those same sorts of feelings that, uh uh, the moment of pleasure was great, but the the, um afterwards, Yeah, because you had been quite quite [00:03:00] a bit of your life up until that point had been quite involved in the church. Well, only, um well, only from late teenage years. Yes. And then on to, um when I went into the ministry, tell me about that. Oh, that just sort of developed as I got involved with a youth work in the church as as a as a member of youth groups and so forth Gradually, that's where it went. And I decided [00:03:30] that's where I wanted to go. So for you was I mean, did did you ever feel conflicted, or was it just a just a natural kind of progression of of finding out who you were? Well, it was both. It was both. Yeah, it was a natural progression. Plus, there were conflicts after, uh, my, um, being in the ministry of the church and being married and being a parent and so forth and so on. And having been a secondary teacher as well, all those things were [00:04:00] contra to where I was going. Can you describe for me what it was like? Um, having all of that, like, you know, uh, a wife and family and the church and then also on the other hand, thinking that you may be gay. Um, well, it was possible to keep the two separate. Um, but more and more, [00:04:30] um, I resented the church for its attitude, and I spoke quite openly about the church's attitude, even though I wasn't, uh, out or anything, Um, both in the parish and in the, um, National Assembly of the Church in the Presbytery and so forth. And it was the time of the homosexual law reform. Then, uh, which was, um uh, well, it, uh, for several several years before that. [00:05:00] Of course, it was a a hot topic in the in the church. Yeah, um, my marriage, We managed it in the marriage. Uh, as far as our relationship was concerned, I mean, the marriage was a The relationship was a good relationship. So So it was actually talked about in my relationship for a while when it first manifested itself. And when I fell in love with someone. Yes, but after [00:05:30] that, um, it was agreed. We wouldn't discuss it. It was That was out of concern for my for my wife. My wife. Can you describe what it was like? Kind of living? Those 22 kind of lives. There's always a fear of being discovered. There was always a fear of, uh, transmission [00:06:00] of sexual infections. Um, those were the two major fears, and there were fears rather than guilt. I didn't feel terribly guilty. Um, about any of that. Um, I'd, um, long before that resolved the the biblical questions, uh, in my favour, um, which I still believe with the right interpretations. [00:06:30] And they were supported by, um, through the through my theological training, though, um, the professors also, um, taught that those comments in the Bible were misinterpreted. Um, and they were interpreted against today's background instead of against the background of the of the day, and that there are very different reasons for the prohibitions and biblical times, [00:07:00] and they weren't moral reasons. They were national, um, survival reasons, because Israel just had to keep up their birth rate and otherwise they wouldn't survive. So that was the reason behind their reasoning. A lot of the history that's been told or that you can access is about people that were kind of, um, kind of out, um, things like gay liberation in the sixties and seventies, you know, that you can. Actually, [00:07:30] people were happy to be out, and they were very political. But I'm guessing there's a there's a whole lot of stuff happening that is a lot quieter. Oh, yes, yeah. I mean, the the public face, the there are two public faces. I think there was the, um, what you might call the flamboyant, um, either flamboyant man or flamboyant, Uh um, Queens, um, [00:08:00] Queens that side. But there's also the the side of those who are working seriously for for change. Um, led by, you know, such people here in Auckland as Tony, Kavi and Brett, she and all those people, and they were before my time of involvement at all. And although I knew both of them very well, um, it was, after all, the turmoil had been, um, gone through. And can you paint [00:08:30] a picture, um, of from your own point of view of what, perhaps the sixties seventies were like in terms of of being, um, a gay man. That wasn't necessarily kind of out. Well, I think for most, the, um, the only avenue of activity that seemed to be available was what the British called cottaging. [00:09:00] Um, and uh, in one or two. Um, well, I'm just not sure. When West Side began getting of the sauna thing, um, backstage, of course, was a It was back there as well. Um, not that I knew anything about it. I'd heard about it, and that's all. I never went there or anything. Um, and yeah. So it's, uh, [00:09:30] I. I really had absolutely no involvement with the community until the, um, HIV issues. And when you say cottaging is that, um that's kind of the toilet Boxing. Yeah. That was the only place to go, uh, to meet, uh, that you had any chance of meeting the like people. How would you know where else to go? And those who were who had been out fully to themselves and so forth [00:10:00] earlier, they formed, uh, groups, small groups, and a lot of them were sort of dinner party groups and those sorts of things. And, uh, lots of well known people belong to those. Yeah, but I didn't discover those not much later at that time. What kind of language was around? Um, gayness. You know what? What kind of words were being used to describe somebody who was gay. Um, I see I never came [00:10:30] across that because, um apart from a few general ones at at school and those sorts of things and faggot and, um see, even Homo wasn't used, um, where that was used a little bit, but I think faggot was the main one that was used. But, you know, memory dims and being being used in Probably not a pleasant [00:11:00] way. Oh, no, no, not at all. And of course, it depends what circles you're in. I mean, some circles you can use out with each other, and nobody's offended you. You know that. It's it's, um And, um, I was watching a television thing last night about racism and the British police force and a and a black woman policeman being charged with racism because she said to one of her black colleagues, Come on, hurry up, you lazy nigga. And that they sort of knew each with each other, that it was just [00:11:30] a sort of a a along, and somebody reported it as serious. And yeah, so it was that sort of thing. And, uh um, So I guess I avoided a lot of that. Yeah, And yet just thinking now in my teaching because I was teaching in the area of sexuality. Um, yeah. Just beginning to think when when I started that it must have been a late [00:12:00] eighties, I think. Oh, no. It was at the time of, um of the HIV thing. Yes. And so we explored a lot of that stuff in class. And that's where, uh, most of it sort of came from the kids because of the way I taught. They brought that sort of stuff up and we put it up, and then we explored it and its meaning and so forth. And when you say teaching, is that what secondary school or yeah, 3rd and 4th form back in the seventies, did [00:12:30] you find that your thoughts were in conflict with church teachings? Yes, but not biblical teachings. And the two are really quite separate. Um, and more and more. I I withdrew from Christian belief, um, that I felt that a huge amount of it was rubbish. Um, theology, particularly, and and church politics [00:13:00] and so forth. Um, biblical things. No, I I've always held the Bible is an amazing book, and, you know, and, um and interpreted, uh, openly It's got a lot, a lot to say, but, um no I. I gradually be beginning to reject the church. In fact, all organised religion altogether still, and reject it completely in today. Greatest evil the world has ever known. Um, [00:13:30] responsible for more human suffering, I think, than anything else in the world. And it doesn't matter whether it's Christian or Muslim or Buddhist or anything else. Or, um, all the pagan religions of Africa. They're all the same. They're all about power. Wasn't there a point, though? In the seventies, I must have read somewhere. Where were you In a church type workshop and [00:14:00] you suddenly kind of had quite a discovery. And, well, I don't know, but I had a discovery, but I was able to announce that discovery. Yeah. Yeah. And that was, uh, but that was part of the, um, know the encounter movement, which came into New Zealand from America through the church. And I think the Anglican church started. And then it came into the other churches and we were, um there was a big [00:14:30] group of us who were very active in it, and we did it started in workshops and then we began to develop workshops of our own and so forth, and that was hugely liberating. And, uh and to me, that was the real church. Can you tell me about that experience that that that workshop, Uh, just that one of the things in those workshops were to design exercises which would help people to, um, [00:15:00] communicate to open themselves to other people to take risk. And, um, one of my one of the guys who trained with me in the theology he designed this one called the Pyramid, and it was not quite sure when it was, but it was in the time of the debate about homosexual law reform. In fact, it might have been after that because the question [00:15:30] he asked was what people's attitudes were and participation was in that development. And he and he built up layers in this pyramid because I didn't do any of them until there was only one place at the top. And so that's, uh, that's where I placed myself and was able to say, and And the support I received from every single one in that group was just amazing. Uh, even though some of them were quite conservative [00:16:00] Christians, but they were all exploring Christians, and that was a big thing. So was that the first time you had kind of publicly kind of come out? I think it probably was. Can't think of any earlier time. And I guess I came out because the ethos of that group was that what happens when the group stays in the group? So I felt safe enough to do to do that. And did that happen? [00:16:30] Did it stay in the group? Uh, as far as I know he is. Certainly there were no repercussions from it. And how did you feel after after doing that? Uh, it was very liberating. Yeah, it was, uh, to begin with a few fears that it might go elsewhere. Although, I don't know, they worried about that at that point, I think probably I felt so completely safe, um, and nurtured that, uh, because two or three of the guys came to me afterwards and were talking, [00:17:00] and they were those straight guys and they they were expressing their support and their and and wanted to know more about what it was all about and and so forth. It was quite quite an experience. Um, you left the church in 1976. Why was that? I no longer believed, and I was very angry about the church's attitude to the homosexual law reform. Um, and, uh, or to the [00:17:30] whole, that whole movement of developing that was developing, um, and that the the church was going backwards in terms of openness. It was retreating all the way, and it left a lot of us stranded on the shores as it were. We just couldn't participate in that and just walked out. Did you feel yourself with any other kind of spirituality or or or religion? [00:18:00] Um, one of the views I have a religion is that it's a crutch for people who are, uh, are not whole or not. Well, once you become whole, you don't need the crutches. Throw them away. And so that whole process of knowing who I was was actually becoming whole. I no longer needed mhm and found it was a hindrance to being whole. [00:18:30] You mentioned just before about HIV and AIDS. And I'm just wondering, when was the first time you heard of AIDS? Must have been there very, very early eighties. Just general news, I think. Or maybe you've read about it in time or something like that. Um, yeah. And of course, it immediately resonated with me as, uh, concerning me. Um [00:19:00] and so I guess I was I was also looking for some way of becoming part of who that was part of who I was wanting to be involved in something and to meet others like me. And this was one way of doing it. Um, so there was, um there was some self-interest in in that side, but also concern on the other side about what was happening. So what was being established in New Zealand? [00:19:30] I mean, when you say you wanted to be a part of what? Well, I think I'm trying to think now. I think it was probably Ray Taylor when he came back to America and set up the system. And I think they are calling for volunteers and people to help train volunteers. And I felt that with my inner inner south and with the expertise I had, [00:20:00] uh, then that was something I might be able to do. And that was a thing. But I can't quite remember exactly how it happened. Can you just explain what the shanty system is? It? It was set up in San Francisco as a a support system for people with HIV and, um, and based on on on, buddy, Um, uh, a trained person trained in buddy would be budded up with someone who was HIV [00:20:30] positive, and we trained quite a lot of people here in Auckland in that but of course, a lot of them got, uh, lost energy because there was no one to Buddy. They weren't that at the time, there were very, very few cases, and most of them were guys who came back from overseas. Um, and so it took quite some time, and I think we we probably lost 50% of the people we trained because of there's just nothing to hold them. So [00:21:00] the the kind of shiny principles became, uh, what incorporated into the This is the aid support network. So that's Ray Taylor and Bruce. Can you describe for me what it was like being a part of, um, AAA new group, A support group? Um, where you may have, you know, um, kind of gay people and also their straight allies. Well, that was part of the reason, of course, why I went there because it was a group of of other [00:21:30] gay people. Um, to begin with almost all gay men. Then a few, uh, straight women particularly, came in, Um, not many lesbians. Very few, in fact, at that stage. And, um, so that's I guess that was the driving force for me, because this was an opportunity to get into something that had some standing, Um, wasn't just sex and had, um, [00:22:00] opportunity to meet a lot of other gay people in a normal natural way, which I'd never had before. So that was a motivating factor. Um, and I was supported, and that was by my wife. She she was very supportive of that, and and she became part of it as well. Can you describe for me what, uh, one of those meetings was like, the training meetings? Um, the it was interesting to me, too, because it was part of [00:22:30] the, uh, encounter movement. It came out of the encounter movement. So it was the same sort of setup which I was used to in our group in our church groups, um, where people were able to open. They're able to challenge each other without being upset or too upset. Um, and some of the things that were revealed by individuals in those groups were just unbelievable. And they'd never, ever told anyone else about [00:23:00] them, ever. Um, so So, yeah, they were quite And they were very emotional. Uh, very, um, warming. Very supportive. Um, very, um, positive. Um, yeah. And, um and it it meant that they were able to deal with their own fears and therefore were able to go and support other peoples in their fears. [00:23:30] And were you saying that your wife was also part of she trained in in one of those groups, one of our biggest ones. We had about 40 members in that particular group, including a nun. So what was it like for you being in that group with your wife talking about these kind of things? It was fine, because we I mean, we were always pretty communicative anyway. And but in her, one of the things starting [00:24:00] point in those, um, meetings, because they they usually began with the weekend. And the starting point was what was called the circle. And everybody went around and induced themselves and said why they were there and so forth and so on. And that would be some of that would be just unbelievably deep. And, uh, and there'd be lots of tears and lots of laughter. And it was Yeah, And remember that particular group we took the whole of the first day just [00:24:30] doing the circle because it was so big. And there was so many, Um, and there were several guys in that who revealed for the first time that they were HIV positive. They never revealed to anybody else. Not even there. I don't think some of them not even the medical system, but they knew they were at the time. Was there a test for HIV? I don't think so. What? It was It was very, uh, complicated. And it wasn't done in New Zealand. Anything [00:25:00] had to be sent to Sydney to be done. What was the life expectancy at that time of somebody with AIDS? Well, it varied, um, and it depends where they contracted the virus, because there are different. Um um, modifications of the virus and some were very virulent. Um, the Sydney one, for instance. I mean, guys could die in six weeks from infection from the first infection. And, um, whereas [00:25:30] others, it was a much slower process, uh, and depended also on the individual's immune system and so on. Yeah, so it it varied greatly. And, of course, it became longer and longer as medications came in. So in those training sessions, what were they saying? In terms of, um, the kind of scope of the the the kind of, um, AIDS issue in New Zealand, you know, Did they Did they say there were gonna be hundreds infected or what? [00:26:00] What were they saying? There was a lot of fear that would be very widespread. And, um and of course, many felt that it was going to spread into the general community. Most of us in those groups said no. It was unlikely to do that. Uh, because, um, gay men tended to keep their sex within the gay community. And so we said, You know, in many ways, the gay community is holding that out of the general, uh, environment in New Zealand. [00:26:30] Whereas in other countries like Scotland, where it was transmitted mainly through, uh, drugs, uh, drugs, um, or Africa heterosexual stuff. Um, the uh, New Zealand general community was pretty safe, So Yeah, there was, um there was a fear in our own community, of course, particularly as guys began dying and, uh, the number of funerals you went to and so forth. [00:27:00] You were saying that, um quite a number of the volunteers kind of left after a while just because there weren't that many people. It was hard to keep them motivated. And, uh, they'd been through the process, They understood it. And we used to say, Well, you know, even if they don't stay, they're going to be better members of the community for them for having done it. And therefore, we we weren't too worried about that. Um, sad perhaps to lose a friendship or in the group or whatever, but, um, yeah, [00:27:30] so I guess in the end, you're left not left. But you came down to a group of really committed, uh, people and many of those budded, uh, guys right through and my wife, buddy, two right through to their deaths. I've been saying network, and I'm just wondering how extensive was the aid support network in New Zealand? Well, manifestations of it appeared in another places. I think Ray had done quite a bit of travelling around. And [00:28:00] so Bruce and I know there was a group in Christchurch. There's a group in Wellington. There's a group in Hamilton, Um, and there are probably other small groups. He, um But they tended to be not as focused organised as the Auckland group, Um, except perhaps the Christchurch Group. Christchurch community is a strange community. It's it's there's no cohesion in it at all. [00:28:30] There's not much in Auckland, but there's far less in Christchurch. It was at that stage anyway. And was the network a, uh, kind of a government initiative or grassroots initiative was grassroots came entirely from Ray and Bruce, Um, and people like myself and Tony Hughes and Bob Harvey. Um, you know, strongly in support of that. And, um, I [00:29:00] was a doctor at um, no. Mike Pole was one of the doctors. The other doctor at um, Auckland Hospital. What was his name? Oh, Doctor, Yes, and things like that. And whereas in Wellington they had some horrific situations of guys going to hospital and the way they were treated and so forth here in Auckland, we never had that what kind of situations? Well, um, ambulance people and nurses would be dressed from, you know, head to toe in protective clothing [00:29:30] and all that sort of stuff. And, uh um yeah, whereas in Auckland they just took the normal gears. And, uh, we say, you know, it should be the normal care that you give everybody. If you're not giving that to everybody, you're not doing your job properly. So and quite a lot of, um of the nurses at Auckland Hospital were were just amazing. And one or two of them came into our network groups and, uh, did some training there and [00:30:00] part of that. So when did the government get involved? Not until the establishment of the AIDS Foundation. It was largely the work I think of, um, Tony Hughes with probably Kate Shepherd. No, Kate, not Shepherd. Kate, Lesley God. And, um, who else was involved? Oh, Bob Harvey was involved in that quite strongly as well. Yeah, but Tony [00:30:30] I I see him as a Saint Paul of Christianity because Christianity would never have survived without Saint Paul, it would have just disappeared. And Paul's and Tony is the same. He's the one that has been there and held things and held things in a way which people listened and respected. And he's done an amazing job, just superb, and just explain who Tony Hughes is because, oh, Tony Hughes is the [00:31:00] well. He was a biomedical researcher, and I'm not sure what his title is now. But he's, uh, I, I would say, Probably two IC of the, um AIDS Foundation. Um, and he's been there now what, 30 years, perhaps more, and just has done an absolutely tremendous job, very quiet in the background. He's so thorough in his work, but people can't question [00:31:30] it. Um, if they try, they soon shot down on flames. And, uh, and no histrionics or anything like that. Just solid, uh, understanding. Skillful. Yeah, the highest respect for what is the difference between the Aid Support Network and the AIDS Foundation? Uh, the Aid Support network in some ways felt that the foundation came in and took [00:32:00] over and pushed AIDS. Uh, the aid support network aside and there was, uh, some friction. Um, after I left the foundation and, um, Warren took over and there was some friction between the two, but it it died out and, uh um, and the same with the, um, gay line. There was a little bit of antagonism there as well as [00:32:30] as though the foundation was taking over and pushing everybody aside. Nobody else met. And there was a little bit of that feeling, Um, which was probably true to a certain extent. But, uh, yeah, I mean, the gay line, for instance, they staffed the AIDS hotline for years with absolutely no financial support from, um AIDS Foundation, even though it was official that they were doing it, Uh, that [00:33:00] sort of thing that, uh so, yeah, there was a little bit of, but it it never got out of hand. I don't think No, it's just transitioning and I. I correct me if I've got it wrong, But, um am I right in thinking that also, you know, you're going from a very much a volunteer based approach in terms of support to something like the AIDS Foundation, which was prevention campaigns. [00:33:30] And yeah, it's I don't know. There's that a little later now when I was director, I have no clue Now what the salary was. Can't remember. It was less than what I was getting teaching, but later it became quite high and there was a bit of friction about that. Um, and, uh um, and the the staff that were there [00:34:00] were quite highly paid and, um, some volunteers was a little bit of, uh, annoyance at that as well, Because, looking back, I think the foundation should have drawn the network in as part of the organisation. But they didn't. They shut, they shut them out, they took over their premises, um, took over their phone line, and just as though they [00:34:30] didn't exist. But then you were the first director of the Oh. So that happened after and the year that I was there. I mean, the looking back now, they didn't really know where they were going. Um, they were very inexperienced. And, uh, that was that came through. Yeah. It must have been quite a, um it must have been quite a stressful time in that, you know, mid eighties. You don't know where this is hitting. What you see from the US is that numbers [00:35:00] of death is just going up. And and here you are starting out in this new organisation. What was that like that? That was very clear and that that centred on turn again. The thing was prevention, there was no cure. So we had to prevent prevent it. The only prevention was the use of condoms right from the beginning, that was the message and put out and, um and even, uh, we bigger did a couple of big posters. I can see them very clearly [00:35:30] now. And even in those we basically said that oral sex was safe, which was way out of line with what everybody else was saying. And that was because Tony said no, this is a virus, and it does not travel that way. And his, in his understanding of it, was so accurate. Um and so right from the beginning, there was that sort of not that everybody believed that, but that was certainly there [00:36:00] and said that the only means of, um transmission was, uh, basically anal sex, unprotected anal sex. And apart from blood transfusions and things like that, you know, obvious things. But sexually, that was the only, um, dangerous activity. And they hammered that and hammered that and hammered that and still do. And it's, um, proved to be true because even though our figures have recently risen, as they have everywhere else [00:36:30] in the world. Um, our use of condoms in New Zealand is much higher than anywhere else. What was it like for you in that kind of mid eighties period? Like as as the first director of the AIDS Foundation. I don't. I felt I was put into that job willingly. Um, but no one really knew [00:37:00] how to organise it or what? What, what? Our role or what my role was? I wasn't really given a clear job description, and nobody else had a clear job description. So everybody was grabbing it. Parts of the job that they wanted and all that sort of thing. So, yes, it was. It wasn't, um It wasn't a comfortable experience, and it was nobody's fault. It just, you know, the nature of the beast of a new organisation in a an uncertain area. [00:37:30] Another uncertain thing at the time was, of course, homosexual law reform, which is 85 86. Did you do anything around law Reform? Apart from talking, I wasn't involved in the so-called movement. Um, because I was too busy with the with other things, and I can't stretch everywhere. And, uh, I'm just trying [00:38:00] to think Who Who were the front people here in Auckland. Brett Shepherd. Certainly. And Tony Kavi behind the scenes. Um, he provided a lot of the money, but he as he said to me one day, he said, um, I I left Brett to do the front work. I'm too miserable of a bastard to do that. You you've mentioned Britain, Tony a couple of times. Tell me about them. Well, they they've they owned the out [00:38:30] empire. Uh, start start with the West Side sauna and the Out magazine. And they had a very large mail order catalogue, Um, and their book shop and so forth. And I got to know them quite well because the gay line were, um, housed by them in the in the building and, uh, NZ Avenue. [00:39:00] So I got to know them quite well. And Tony's partner, John Kitty, uh, who has died fairly recently, and, uh, yeah, so I presume Tony is still alive. Although he should have been dead years ago. He he and Brett both contracted cancer prostate cancer around about the same time, and Brett didn't do his medications properly and died. And whereas Tony really battled and did everything [00:39:30] and, uh, still alive that, you know, 20 years later, um, so he's a He's a bit, but he's difficult. He's well known for being very, very difficult, but he just he he won't put up with bullshit of any sort and very direct. And he'll challenge anybody, uh, government council, anybody and, uh, he's a hoarder and that he hoards every piece of paper that comes in every document. [00:40:00] And, of course, when it comes to battling, he's got all the documentary evidence, so he won a whole lot of battles, but yeah, so from that point of view, he was he was good value. How did you get involved with gay line? And what is it? Uh, gay line was set up when 1972 I think is a, um, a telephone line that [00:40:30] it was set up for. Guys. Um, they could, um, contact talk set up by a couple of guys who first of all, put their own home telephone number in the Herald as a place that gay men and could contact. And this was, you know, in the early seventies, incredibly brave, really. To wonder the Herald. The Herald even allowed it. And so it developed from [00:41:00] there. And, um, I lived in a number of places after their home. Um, And when I first came to know it, I think I'd done some training for youth line in from this encounter movement stuff. And, um, one of the leading persons in it was a member of the staff at Glenview College who I was teaching, [00:41:30] and he got me involved. And, uh, firstly, to help with the training. And then, um um, got me to apply to be the, um the manager for the was there for 12 years, so yeah. Hm. I just want to divert justice from gay line just for a minute. And, um, you've just brought back up your secondary school teaching. And what was it like being a gay teacher in the [00:42:00] 19 eighties? I remember the first day I was there, Rob Grant greeted me, and I'd obviously met him somewhere. I didn't know and I thought, Who who's this person? And it gradually developed and so forth. And I'm not quite sure the process of becoming known at school [00:42:30] the staff knew. Don't think the first principle I had knew. But the second principle I had was Dave Norris, the, um, Olympic, um, usual Olympic athlete and an Olympic manager. Then he was fine. And then the next guy, he was fine with it as well. The board was OK. The staff were OK, but I wasn't out to the students. And, um, I just, uh, Rob Rob [00:43:00] Grant was out to the students, but, um, I decided it wasn't appropriate. And, uh and I found that boys who are looking at themselves and this, you know, wondering about themselves or, uh, they would come and talk with me rather than talking with Rob because they went to talk with Rob. It identified them, whereas if they came and talked to me, it didn't identify them. So [00:43:30] it's, uh yeah, it was. It was quite useful. And the and the work that I was doing, the subjects that I was teaching, it was, um that was part of it. Were you aware of any, uh, homophobia or anything like that at school? Oh, yes. There are some staff who were very anti. But as I said in my farewell speech, although I knew that there were a number of staff from particularly from their Christian point of view, were very anti but that they'd never shown me anything except respect that they'd [00:44:00] always treated me respectfully. And, uh, so, you know, that was, uh, quite something. And, uh, I think they respected the work that I was doing with the students. Uh, because I was part of the counselling team. Although I was doing most of it in in the classroom and, uh, you know, in an atmosphere of, um, developing their their personality and their self esteem and all that sort of stuff. So, during your [00:44:30] time, did you bring in, um, safe sex information? Absolutely. Yeah. Throughout the school. In what way? Well, in those classes, it was part of the class. Um, also, we developed a sexuality, uh, education programme throughout the school that I trained a number of the staff to, uh, to lead in, um, probably about 10 of them. And, um, that that was part of the curriculum of it. Um, HIV aids, [00:45:00] safe sex, etcetera, as well as all the other stuff. You know, it was very, very clear. We had a few parents who objected. Very few, actually, I think only about three. In the whole 12 years. I was doing it more 20 years. I was doing it, you know? So it was very few, and the students had the option of opting out of them. But most students didn't tell their parents because otherwise they knew their [00:45:30] parents would want to take them out. They didn't tell them. But for some years, we had parent meetings and put the curriculum before them. And three or four years and they there was never any objection. They all supported. And those the number who attended became less and less. So we we didn't take. We discontinued them. Yeah, legally, it was required to begin with at that time. It soon disappeared. [00:46:00] Heading back to gay line and your involvement. So what? What What did your involvement entail? What did you do? Everything I was employed for, uh, 23 hours a week, 20 hours a week. And I did about 60 and I did everything. I ran the office I staffed. I trained the volunteers. I staffed the, uh, the [00:46:30] both the hot of the age hotline and gay line through the day from 10 till five. yeah. Cleaned the toilets, everything. Yeah, I was the only one there. I did have some help. Um, in at various times, I got involved with the courts. And, um uh, particularly sue one or two [00:47:00] lawyers and police officers who were concerned about, um, people being entrapped for sexual activity and, um, getting them, um, either diver diversion, if possible, or community service rather than, uh um, anything else and they Quite a number of them came and did their community service at gay, Um, and also with, [00:47:30] uh, wins. And they they would come, come and and work there for six months or something. So those sorts of things, in order to get, um, some sort of help you say entrapment. So what What kind of year is that? And and what? What kind of entrapment are we talking about? Uh, particularly in the toilets, but not just I remember one guy who came to me and was sent to me [00:48:00] by, um, a police officer at the court. Um, he had appeared in court and then was remanded and so forth, and he sent them to me, and he'd been walking along the coastal walkway and this guy was walking behind him and sort of came alongside and talking. And, um, the guy suggested they go into the bushes and, uh, and as soon [00:48:30] as this, a man touched the sky turned out police officer and arrested him, That sort of thing. Um, and also, of course, in the toilets. There was lots of that in toilets. It was very unsafe. What kind of year are we talking? I suppose from the late seventies, early eighties, even after homosexual reform was still going on Still going on today. In some cases, there's some police officers who for [00:49:00] usually religious beliefs, uh, think that that's what they've got to do. How many volunteers did Gale have in the early nineties? We probably never had less than 30 and it could be up to 60. But the attrition rate was quite high. And so you had to continually train new ones, train new ones, and the attrition rate was, um, very, very seldom, because [00:49:30] of negativity, it was quite a change of life. Circumstances moving away, change of job, getting married, Um, whatever. Uh, so yeah, the attrition rate was quite high, but we never had any real difficulty getting volunteers, you know, lots of the other. I was on the community or organisation grant scheme committee. The cos and, uh, they say, oh, so difficult to get volunteers. How is it that you get so get [00:50:00] them so easily? And I used to say, Well, you know, our people are committed to their cause. Uh, but the real reason was because our volunteers worked in the evening, whereas theirs were through the day and it was very difficult to get volunteers through the day. So it was, um, we were lucky from that point of view. Well, not lucky, but the circumstances were good. And what kind of training did they get again? I use the same sort of training. Um, uh, the [00:50:30] encounter movements, you know, is still very strong in me and that sort of stuff on a personal level, but also a lot of work on communication, uh, particularly telephone communication, which is quite different, uh, from ordinary communication. And people will tell you more in 10 minutes on the phone. Then they'll tell you in two days, face to face. It's just they just it's all there. And in the [00:51:00] most embarrassing details um, and didn't matter whether they are straight or gay or anything. It was the same because they had the security of being anonymous. And we made sure that people knew that we did not have a, uh, an, uh, caller ID so service or anything like that. And, um so, yeah, and, uh, knowledge about HIV about sexual infections? Um, [00:51:30] yeah. And about general, the gay community and what was available. You had a very good database of what was available in the community. Um, yeah, because I'm guessing at that time, the Internet would have been like in its infancy. I mean, if you had the Internet, I think that side of it, the the personal communication side is not there, though. And they still want to talk to somebody. And often they ask him a question [00:52:00] about something, Uh, innocent as it were was really a testing thing to see. Can I go further and really open up? And so that those sorts of skills, um you know, for instance, I said, you know, the only starting words you should use are the WH words. Where how what? When? Which but never. Why? Because as soon as [00:52:30] you ask why? Why do you think that or why do you? Why do you do that? The person becomes offensive because they think that you're trying to force them to justify themselves. So that, and you should or or ought, Um, and so on. Well, I think you should do this. Um, So it was nondirective counselling, totally listening and guiding the listening so that it allowed them to explore the situation themselves and come to their own answers [00:53:00] and which they'd be much more likely to put into practise any that we gave them. I mean, we'd give them information if they wanted it, but their own personal answers were theirs. So those were the skills that they that they learned and and the the skills I wish everybody could learn over your time with gay line. Did you notice that the calls changed? You know, either the type of people or the type of questions? [00:53:30] Not really. And the coming out process is still the same for as it's always been. Hard for some easier for others. Um, so I don't think much has changed in that. Yeah, When you look at your own personal journey, how would you sum it up? It has it been hard, or is it easy? Is it? It's mixed. Very mixed. Yeah, There have been some bad patches, and they've been, but [00:54:00] I've never, ever being confronted with strongly negative attitudes or actions or, um, anything that's frightening or anything like that. I've never found myself rejected. Uh, because of it? Um, I don't know. No. Maybe some have just quietly gone away and leave me alone. But that's fine. [00:54:30] But I've never been aware of anyone ceasing their relationship with me because of it, and certainly not in my own family. So from that point of view, mine has been painful in many, many times, but reasonably OK can reasonably smooth. And, uh, you know, I look at young people today, many of them, and they're out from a very early age and, uh, and enjoying their support and [00:55:00] and mostly with, um, support from their families. Not entirely. But, uh, mostly, you still get those odd occasions moving into the two thousands and 2004, 2000, 2005, we get, uh, civil unions in New Zealand. The ability to have a civil union and you became a celebrant. Why? Well, I've been a marriage celebrant anyway in the church, and I thought, Well, this is something I could do could [00:55:30] do, and I'd like to do it, and it's, uh it could be fun. Um, and, um and I believed in the in the process. I thought, you know, we should grab it with both hands, and, uh, even if it wasn't perfect, it was at least a step in the right direction. And so, yeah, I just, um, did that because it wasn't very difficult because I'd been registered as a as a marriage celebrant. Anyway, although I'd given that up when I left the church. And so it was I knew [00:56:00] all about it, and it was wasn't a big step to do. And you say you move in the right direction? What? What? What does that mean? Well, that I I thought civil union was a bit of, uh, a bit of a cop out in some ways. But I could see that, you know, if we didn't take that, we weren't going to get any further at that stage. Although, of course, going back further as far as the age of consent was concerned. We actually, um the community, actually, um, uh, sabotaged that because [00:56:30] the the proposed bill didn't include equality of age. This is this is going back before the bill. Yes. There were two attempts. One by Vern. He was an MP from somewhere in Taranaki, I think. Yeah. And also the one by, um, was it the Warren? Yes. Yes. I think Martin Finney was involved in that somewhere as well. And, uh, neither of those [00:57:00] in included the age of consent. And so the the community with more or less withdrew its support from them, and so they fell by the wayside. Um, and it was only when Frans Bill came in with the age of consent being equal. Um, and even then a lot in our community didn't want that because they thought they'd never get it. That would the the thing altogether. So with civil unions was the same thing happening where people were saying Well, actually, this [00:57:30] is not a quality. We don't want this. And a lot of the women particularly were very strong about that. Uh, but when you looked at the detail, it gave us nearly everything that marriage gave us. And the only major thing was the adoption thing in the name and the name, Of course, Yeah, I couldn't care less about the name. Um, it's interesting because, [00:58:00] you know, the church is a marriage has never been a church. It's a it's a, um, it's a government law. If the church want it their way, they can do it for their people. That's fine, but not to impose it on everyone else. And so marriage has always been a legal thing right through the ages. It's been a legal thing, uh, for hundreds of years. So it's a legal thing we have to change. [00:58:30] Uh, we won't change the churches, particularly, and more the Muslim faith. They've still got 100 years to catch up on us. They'll they'll get there eventually. So we're here in, uh, February 2013, and the Lewis Wall Bill has passed its first reading in parliament Gone to select committee. They haven't quite yet reported back, and I'm thinking, What do you think the chances are of this marriage [00:59:00] equality bill going through? I think it's pretty clear it will go through with quite a good majority. Um and, uh, yeah, I think the time it's the time is right. And it it will, uh, I'm not quite sure where the question of adoption stands, because there's also the bill that is at Marion Street saying about adoption. Um, and I think it's on the back burner at the moment because Lewis is saying that, you [00:59:30] know, if her bill goes through, it includes adoption. It's all all the rights and privileges of marriage in adoption as one of those, uh, uh, rights and privileges. And I mean, they they they are gay men in New Zealand have adopted Children. Uh, it's stupid because a single gay man can adopt a child, but a couple can't. If one has Children, his partner can adopt those Children, but it's [01:00:00] so mixed up, it's crazy and it's it's unfair on the kids, and they should be given clear, equal status to anyone else. And how were your kids when you came out? Um, they were in their late teens. Um, the girls were fine. They both said independently, you know? So what we've known for years, um, the boys hadn't a clue. [01:00:30] Um, they took a little while longer to particularly my older son, uh, to come to terms with that, um, And now, I mean, they're just as likely to throw cheek at me about it as anyone else. I think I told you that when I got my queen service medal. One of my sons said, Oh, how appropriate. So you know that sort of thing? Yeah. [01:01:00] Now, that was 2005. The Queen Service medal. It sort of was based on the HIV thing, because that was what was acceptable for the government to give. But the community aspect was included as well. Uh, yeah, it was quite interesting how how it was done. And I still don't know who was responsible. I presume it was Chris Carter, but I haven't a clue. Um, but yeah, that was, uh, uh, pretty awesome. Really. [01:01:30] And the investiture was a very interesting experience with, uh, Dame Sylvia. Lovely lady. Yeah. Um, yeah. So it's, um Yeah, it was good to get that and, uh, feel that not just me, but the community had some, uh, recognition like that. And because I, I don't I don't think there was then anyone else who had been, um, SM [01:02:00] for that. I think Warren Warren before or maybe Warren? Yeah. It must be quite something to to be tapped on the shoulder. Absolutely. I. I was totally taken by surprise. Yeah, Yeah. There been a few things like that that have really, uh, take me, Um a couple of people, a man and a woman turned up at the office one day in there. They They said they were from the or own a trust or [01:02:30] something. And, um, they said, we we want to give you a recognition for your work. They said this is a financial recognition for you, not for the organisation. Um, it's for you personally. A check of $3000. Things like that have happened, which I just think Oh, it's nice. Yeah. 01 thing we haven't touched on that has actually been a part of your life for [01:03:00] for decades. You know, going right back to the eighties is the fifth season gardening group. Tell me about that. Um, I was trying to think today how I got involved in that. No, it was when I was with my partner, Peter, and I think it was Yeah, it was because we were both gardeners. Our garden was twice or three times in the heroic garden thing, Uh, [01:03:30] but before that, we'd been on the committee of the fifth season Garden Group and, um, the main, the main functions or the main things that does, uh, a visit. Monthly visits to gardens, usually a group of two or three gardens, Um, usually gay gardens, but not necessarily so. And, um the And then we had a coup couple of functions a year at Christmas function and midwinter function. [01:04:00] And that sort of the programme. And it's been it's been also in the on the edge of the heroic garden thing and sometimes being involved with sometimes just supportive. And, uh, it's always been a bit of unclear where the, uh, heroic gardens fits in between and and the fifth season. But it's really an ad hoc committee that exists year by year. Maybe. What do you get out of gardening? [01:04:30] Oh, it's gardening is I think it's a very spiritual thing, Um, and it allows you to completely forget about everything in the world and just dealing with what's there and the growth and the change and the beauty and all that sort of thing. Uh and you know, it's It's I find it very renewing. Mhm. And, uh, if I [01:05:00] often I will go out and, uh, I'll sort you know, we there and there and I pull it out before I know it six hours later. And I totally forgotten everything. Yeah, often things that I shouldn't have forgotten. Um, yeah, but yeah, it's it's it's totally absorbing, healing, very healing.

IRN: 711
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089513
TITLE: Clay Nelson profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Clay Nelson
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Anglican Church; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland City Mission; Auckland Community Church; Clay Nelson; John Spong; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Nelson Mandela; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; Springbok rugby tour (1981); St Matthew-in-the-City; United States of America; billboards; celebrant; church; civil rights; civil unions; coming out; education; facebook. com; faith; hate mail; hate speech; homosexual law reform; human rights; images online; internet; marriage; marriage equality; media; outreach; religion; social justice; social media; spirituality; theology; transgender; transition; youth
DATE: 29 January 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: St Matthew-in-the-City, 132 Hobson Street, Auckland
CONTEXT: In this podcast Clay talks about his work with St Matthew-in-the-City; particularly organising the church billboards that have gained international attention.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, my background is that I'm an American who immigrated here in 2005, determined to go somewhere else after George Bush got reelected. Um, and I was at a point in my life where I could do that. My kids were established. My parents had were deceased, so I could have one more great adventure. And part of what drew me to New Zealand as opposed to other locations, was its record in human rights [00:00:30] in particular. Um, that was one of the things troubling me in the US was, uh, at least under republicans. Uh, equality issues were a problem. Um, there were many other issues, but that was a big one. I have worked in higher education as my first career. And then when I was about 20 seven, I went to seminary or I started thinking about going to seminary. Went to [00:01:00] seminary in when I was 30 I've been a priest for 30 years. Um, I have always worked in from a progressive angle in the church. Uh, my one of my formative bishops was Bishop John, um, when I was a young priest, he was my bishop. Uh, so these [00:01:30] issues have always been important to me. When I came to New Zealand, I had not been working as a actively as a priest. Uh, for about six years, I'd worked with, uh, another faith group, Unitarians, as an administrator. Uh, because I was frustrated in part, I would had been in a position of high rank and, uh, an American diocese, and I got it was a fairly [00:02:00] conservative diocese, and I got very tired of the sex wars. Um, because there was still a lot of resistance to equality, Um, and wasn't the only reason, But it was a big one. And so I went off with free thinking Unitarians. For a while. When I came here, I did not expect to work for the church. Uh, I thought I might have to drive [00:02:30] a taxi. I just hope I could stay and the, uh uh, of staying in temporary housing over on Queen Street. And during my first week, I happened to walk by Christ, uh, Saint Matthews and they had a big banner on their bell tower that said, Make poverty history. I thought, Well, they might be my kind of place. So I came the next Sunday and, uh, heard a fairly progressive sermon tolerable liturgy. And I thought, [00:03:00] Well, maybe this will be a place I can come worship. But then I noticed they had a, um a notice sheet of activities and they at the bottom. There was an ad for they were looking for someone to do communications and marketing and gave a URL for looking up the position description and went back to my hotel. Looked at it. It was like I had written it for myself, so they weren't looking for a priest, but I But I had experience with Web development and communications and, uh, qualifications [00:03:30] there. So I applied. And two weeks later, I had a job and, uh, with the vision of creating a virtual progressive church online, and, uh then they cottoned on to the fact that I was a priest, and eight years later, I'm still here and at the moment, priest in charge. So it's It was one of those grace filled moments, [00:04:00] so that's how I came to be here. Saint Matthew is is known around New Zealand for it's very, uh, progressive but proactive approach to, um promoting the values that you hold Can you talk to me a wee bit about that? How did that all come into being? I'm thinking of things like, um, the billboard outside the church is always coming up with interesting ways to kind of push the the but the buttons. [00:04:30] Yeah, well, that that's part of my brief here. And, uh, let's see, Saint Matthews has always been a place that was concerned about social justice, not just for the gay and lesbian community, but, um, much broader. I mean, they helped found the seafarers, uh, and and they [00:05:00] or at least they were involved with it. Um, And they started a medical clinic which later, I think, evolved into the Auckland City mission. And the first Miss City missioner was somebody in my position who went to do that work and establish the mission. Uh, it was in involved involved with, uh, the for, uh, Maori land rights. And it, uh, in my office is where, uh, [00:05:30] the demonstrations for the Springbok tour, uh, were planned. Um, when Nelson Mandela came to New Zealand to thank Kiwis for their support, he did it from Saint Matthew's pulpit. We were involved in anti war Pete Seeger, sang from our in our pulpit. Uh, so there's been this long history, And then 30 plus years ago, when it was still, [00:06:00] uh, against the law to be gay, uh, Saint Matthew's helped found, uh, the Auckland Community Church, Um, or at least offered a safe place for them to meet and with many of its members, our members who were involved in supporting it. Our clergy have preached there regularly over the years, and, um, and it slowly became more and more seen as a major component of who we were was to support [00:06:30] that community. Uh, no. I mean I. I think it's important that, um, the heterosexual community is not just tolerating the gay and lesbian community, but respecting, honouring, appreciating that community. And Saint Matthews has a long history of doing that. So we've been involved with, you know, the AIDS quill and the AIDS Foundation. They regularly have their, uh, some of [00:07:00] their services here. The transgender community. It has memorial services here. Uh, many, many funerals of of prominent gay and lesbian people have had their farewell here. Um, we've had some, um, great funerals with, uh, some of the entertainers in the gay community. Uh, I mean, it's so [00:07:30] we've been been there, and whether we directly were involved in doing it, we at the very least provided them space for it. Uh, we have spoken actively in the pulpit about the issue. We've confronted our own Anglican church about their policies, and a few years back, um, I decided that we had requests [00:08:00] for people to do civil unions here, and the the Dyson policy was not supportive of that. Um, it was OK to do blessings. I got myself licenced to be a civil union celebrate so that I could actually hold the whole service here in the church. Well, the diocese doesn't fully approve of that. We don't hide it, and they've chosen not to make it an issue. I don't do a lot of them. [00:08:30] Um, the gay and lesbian community, for understandable reasons, isn't necessarily, um, trusting of the church to have their services. I think is a big part of it. Um and I certainly understand that, but for those who wish it, I'm available to them if they want to have a religious ceremony. I. I only do gay and lesbian civil unions. [00:09:00] I don't do civil unions for other people. For the heterosexual community, there are plenty of civil union celebrates for that. So, um and we're we're working out in our minds how we're going to handle the issue if with fingers crossed that the Marriage Equality Act passes how we handle that because the church will be behind the curve on that in terms of approving our ability to do that, I think they will eventually. [00:09:30] But in the meantime, what do we do? So we've we've kind of worked out a strategy on that, Um, we're going to couples who want to have a marriage here are gonna need to go to Internal Affairs, have a kind of a JP wedding, so they're signed off on it, But then they'll come here and we'll do the full thing as a renewal of ours at the at the very least and and provide [00:10:00] the blessing. So, um, we're we're planning ahead. Having all these things go on in the church is one thing, but actually, things like your billboards and being quite outspoken publicly about your progressive attitudes is is another. How did that idea of really pushing the message out into the community come about? Well, it tied into this world we now live [00:10:30] in with the Internet and social media and all of that. I've been doing billboards for a while. Hardly ever. Did they get picked up in the media? They were often clever. They provided a smile, but they didn't push any envelopes. Uh, it was our first. The first billboard that pushed the envelope didn't have anything to do with the gay and lesbian community. It had to do with, uh, the doctrine [00:11:00] of the virgin birth. And, uh, it was a billboard showing Joseph and Mary in bed. Uh, Mary looking was sadly to heaven and Joseph looking rather dejected. And it just simply said, poor Joseph God is a hard act to follow. Well, that was quite an experience, because it went. I watched it go viral on Google. And then it was in all the newspapers around the world, [00:11:30] and there was we were getting interviews and television and radio from around the world, and, uh, and people found us. And and they found our websites that we didn't have a big Facebook page at that point. Um, we were just getting into that but just, uh, incredible numbers. Thousands and thousands of people came to the website, and, uh, people [00:12:00] you know were either very supportive or, um, extremely angry about it all. You know, we've got lots of hate mail, lots of hate email. Um, we mixed in with lots of positive ones as well. That's when we really discovered the power of the billboard. And, uh so we we work hard now to find a way to push the [00:12:30] edge. Um, it's not for our notoriety. It's in order to engage the world and to talk about, uh, issues of spirituality and social justice. And we have lots of evidence that that happens. Uh, for instance, our Christmas billboard was part of a major blog in Russia where it just had tonnes of comments. I have no idea what they thought, [00:13:00] uh, but it But it's now because of that first billboard, whenever we put up a billboard, the media is interested, and so we're we're almost guaranteed that what we put up is gonna get some attention. Um, we got up with the We've had 34 billboards that have had it directly to do with gay and lesbian and [00:13:30] one was showed Noah's Ark, and it said, We welcome two of every kind. It was a beautiful illustration, and we use it a lot. Um, and the next one had to do with confronting church policy. We have a member of the staff who is a theology bachelor's of theology. Um is incredibly gifted. Every inch of him is a priest, but he's also gay and in a committed relationship. And the and the bishops have chosen [00:14:00] to have a moratorium on allowing someone like him to go through discernment for ordination. And after two bishops are making requests and and being kind of blown off, he finally felt too humiliated to continue. And I was furious and, uh, took on the diocese and the whole province of New Zealand on this issue. In a sermon that got a lot of attention, [00:14:30] we started a virtual billboard stopping white collar crime and, uh, used the web to, uh, have a petition calling on the diocese to change this policy. Um, and then we followed it up with a billboard that looked like a, um, a metre that looked like called a G, what the church uses to discern people for ordination, [00:15:00] and it had straight and gay on two sides. Um, so we were pretty in their face on that one. The next billboard was, uh, coincided with Luis's bill on marriage equality. As in its first reading, we put it up the day of or the day before the first vote, and that showed two women on top of a wedding cake and with our message that we don't care who's on top [00:15:30] and that that also got a lot of people talking and generated a lot of hate mail. Um, but nothing like the Christmas one, the Christmas one with Jesus with a rainbow halo. It's Christmas time for Jesus to come out generated some of the most nasty, you know, we've had I've finally had to start monitoring. I've tried to let the website and comments be free freely without [00:16:00] censorship, but they were so nasty towards the GO BT Q community. I had to. So nothing goes up anymore that I don't see first. Um, it got lots of attention on Facebook. Lots of comments. It's been picked up by a lot of other Facebook pages and websites and blogs. Um, so it's it's gotten worldwide attention. Um, it [00:16:30] generated some pretty nasty death threats. Um, which we had passed on to the police. Um, so it's it's certainly pushed the issue. There have been complaints to the advertising standards authority, uh, which has upheld us on all the complaints. So, uh, that it didn't breach any of the laws, but people [00:17:00] try. So it, uh it is clear that while I believe the back of homophobia has been broken and the future is clear, uh, it's gonna be a long time before all the wounds are healed and we will have to continue standing up for our gay brothers and sisters. Uh, as they deal with the remnants of that I do [00:17:30] believe these attitudes and values are generational. And as people of my generation and older begin to go, uh, we will see less and less of it. Evidence of that is marked by some rather prominent evangelicals recently coming out, um, saying we gotta let this go. This isn't right. So I'm I'm quite hopeful. [00:18:00] I'm actually quite amazed to have seen all of this in my own lifetime in ministry, and I feel good about having played some small part in pushing it. That first billboard where you were pushing the envelope? What year was that? 2010. Yeah, 2000. Uh, no. 2009. 2009. And when? When? When you were coming up with that concept. Did you have any [00:18:30] incline as to what kind of response you would get? Because obviously you wanted to push. Yeah, I. I did want to push, but I was thinking maybe if I got picked up and side swipe, it would be a success, you know, and I. I certainly thought people would find the humour and let it go. But no, um, it really pushed buttons worldwide, and, uh, I learned [00:19:00] from that, but we can make use of this. And so when that happened, how did the the reason you respond? What kind of debate did you have? Well, let me start where we are now, and then I'll go back. I did a of the congregation, both our online congregation and our our the physical congregation, about a wide variety of issues. But amongst that was how did they feel about our billboards? How did they feel [00:19:30] about our, uh, presence in the media? writing articles, all that sort of thing and pushing these controversial issues. And as of last November, about, um, it was overwhelming support of the congregation. There's some small las and the the most common problem I have are those who say they get tired of having to defend our Christmas [00:20:00] billboards at their Christmas parties or with their families or that sort of thing. And I think they find that uncomfortable. And, uh, But I would say the majority at this time are quite proud of our public position. Um, and are quite supportive. Certainly our online community is quite supportive, uh, overwhelming, Huge. But it's [00:20:30] true. They either strongly support or support uh, in the 80% to 90% percentile. So, um, and Al and almost no one says we shouldn't do them. It's just how important they think they might be. So but the first billboard, you know, none of us were prepared for the worldwide reaction. But, you know, Glenn and I did a, um [00:21:00] kind of a a conversation sermon this first Sunday after that reaction and and then invited people to ask questions and talk about it and, um and yeah, there were some they were. I mean, this was fairly new. I mean, to be this this visible and that provocative. So people were working through it. But what I can say is three years later and several more billboards that were provocative, [00:21:30] they've come to terms with it very well. Yeah, quite proud of that. Talk to me about, uh, the kind of design process that you go through for one of those billboards. I mean, who comes up with a message? How is it formulated? Do you have a test group? A little of that. Um, we have been blessed to have, uh, different, [00:22:00] um, advertising group, uh, companies willing to work with us pro bono. OK, so we don't pay for any of the creative work. Uh, we sometimes have to pay for. Well, we pay for the printing and the scan and installation, basically, And sometimes there's some other cuts, but so we get these quite economically. The the reward for these companies is they use They have a lot more freedom [00:22:30] than they do with their usual clients to come up with things. And then they use these in competitions within their industry. We've won lots of awards for our billboards over the years, Um, even the ones before we got really controversial. Um, the challenge for me is I'm generally these creative teams are young people, and they are, by and large unchurched. [00:23:00] And they have strong stereotypes about what church is. And I have to disabuse them that we aren't their stereotype. So I have to educate them about what what we're about. And that's that's not easy. It's not like I can just give them a paragraph and say, This is how we're different, you know? So it usually takes me a while, especially when I'm starting with a new team to get the message across. Um, but the first [00:23:30] thing in the brief I give them is if this billboard can be comfortable outside any other church, it probably doesn't work for us. OK, start from there. And, um, you know, we we always try to have one at Christmas, Easter and maybe four or five others during the course of the year. Sometimes that's on short notice. We have to deal with what's happening in the culture, and we're trying to reach out not [00:24:00] to people in the church. We're trying to reach out to people who are either sceptical of the church who have been harmed by the church or ignorant of the church. And we're not trying to get them their bums on the pews. We're not trying to build our numbers this way. Though we have had some success that way. What we really want to do is public theology. We wanna engage. We want to be one of the voices in the marketplace of ideas at a time [00:24:30] when the church has a a quieter and quieter voice. Yeah, so we have to use a megaphone to get attention. And, um so the most common complaint is how could you a church say and do these things? You know? Well, we're not talking to the church generally. Sometimes we're confronting the church and their attitudes. But generally we're speaking to the greater culture. And and you know, [00:25:00] I have friends here who are gay and Pakistani. And they went back for Christmas after one of their our billboards and found that some remote part of Pakistan the family was discussing our billboards over over the dinner table. You know, the conversation goes well beyond New Zealand. Um, the uh, last year's Christmas bill board was discussed for 10 minutes on the View, which is a major pro daytime [00:25:30] programme in the US for women predominantly focused on women with Barbara Walters and Whoopi Goldberg. And, you know, and that's how my Children found out about it and they were quite shocked that they're dead. I've gotten this out there, Um, so it's it's really about being discussed. The last Billboard I did a a brief interview on a Sydney [00:26:00] Channel, TV Channel, and some of my Australian friends wrote me and said after your bit, uh, the news readers realised. Do you know we've been talking about Jesus for five minutes and I felt, Yeah, that's what I That's what this is about. You know, if if a few of those people are drawn to us in Auckland to come worship with us on [00:26:30] occasion, that's cool. But that's not our agenda. Our agenda is to to let what our understanding of the Gospel is. Get some discussion out there and to challenge people's stereotypes and to understand that not all churches fit in the same box, um, under the same steel. So it's, uh, I think we're getting pretty good at it. So what, then, is the relationship between, [00:27:00] uh, Saint Matthew's and and the rest of the Anglican Church? Well, there we have our quiet supporters say, Matthew, I got I Saint Matthew's is very unique, and and And we have a responsibility. Because of that, the uniqueness is in how we are funded. We don't really depend on the congregations giving [00:27:30] we welcome in. But our people don't have deep pockets. We just happen to be blessed to have been put on land that's incredibly valuable. And, um, a few victors ago was, uh he was entrepreneurial enough for the congregation to build the car park, which we lease and that undergirds are our budget. [00:28:00] And then we have a view of using our building as kind of a community centre, uh, for all of Auckland. So corporations, uh, nonprofits, private parties use the space, and we profit from that, um, we sometimes sponsor those events so they get made to rates. Uh, if it's, uh, something that fits our agenda. But, uh, that generates [00:28:30] income. We do about 100 weddings a year, which generates some income. Uh, and once somebody gave us a factory in Eden Terrace, which we get some rent from. So because of that, we're not worrying about some important giver in the congregation who might be upset with theology. So while I've had some fairly free pulpits [00:29:00] in my life, I've never had one freer than this. I can say exactly what I think and believe. I'm not calling on everybody else to believe and think the same way. But I am very free to say it, Uh, because our financial stability is not in challenge. Most clergy out there may agree with us, but they don't dare. So we have to speak for them. Um, they generally, [00:29:30] you know, in a a smaller town in particular where you can't go church shopping. There's one England church here, the Anglican. Uh, so there's gonna be the whole broad spectrum of theology and that congregation, um, and those who don't like our theology probably left long ago. Those who are drawn to it are here. They support us, and and so we're able to speak [00:30:00] that consistent voice. So I I recognise it. Others aren't in a position to do what we do. I'm not calling on them to do what we do, we'll do it for them. So, um, we also wish, though that they would use these opportunities when we get media attention, they can get media attention arguing with us if they, like, the Catholics [00:30:30] have gotten pretty good at it. Uh, you know, nobody would be talking to anybody else if it wasn't for our billboards. Uh, but, you know, they have an opportunity to react to it and at least get their views out there if they disagree, Um, at least that furthers the conversation, but unfortunately, they tend not to. Few are starting to here and there. You know, there are people taking us on, and that's fine. Has there ever been a [00:31:00] point where you've looked at the reaction and you've looked at some of, say, the negative reaction to the billboards? And you thought, actually, either we've gone too far or we should take this down or this will be the last one. Has there ever been that moment where you thought you might have crossed a line? Well, personally speaking, No, I can't speak for everybody. Um, I mean, we were We do. I know. Push [00:31:30] right on that fine line and And people say we shouldn't be offending people. I'm sorry. Ideas offend. You know, um, it's not personal, you know, I but yeah, if we're gonna generate a conversation, it's got there's got to be some controversy. We don't do it just for controversy sake. I mean, we're pushing ideas and values we hold, [00:32:00] Uh, but we know that there are many others who don't hold those. And and perhaps there's a certain amount of jealousy that we get the attention. I don't know. Um, but, um, those people just dismiss us. Oh, it's just Saint Matthews. Oh, that church. OK, fine. But since we weren't talking to them anyway, um, we're not too concerned about it. Um, but you have vandalism. [00:32:30] Oh, yeah. In fact, it's wonderful, I. I almost should pay people to vandalise it and I It adds a few more news cycles to the story. I mean, with the Joseph and Mary billboard. It was thanks to it being once painted over, uh, then stolen, then replaced, then attacked by some mad woman with a knife. Um, it was in the Herald nine straight days. [00:33:00] Yeah, in some form or fashion, you know, so and then last year's Christmas billboard got vandalised. I. I thought this one would too. But no, it wasn't. Uh, so it's gonna be used in the Gay Pride parade this year, and I use it. Um, so my favourite story about the vandal [00:33:30] is the guy that painted it over the Joseph of Mary, Uh, two months later, on Trobe Tuesday was in line to get pancakes that we serve out in front of the church to people as they walk by. We got a kick out of that may not like her billboards, but likes her pancakes. You were saying earlier that the kind of agenda for the billboards is not necessary to bring people into church. [00:34:00] Uh, but you But you were also saying that some people have come in through the billboards. Has it brought in more rainbow community? I mean, we have a faith community that's focused on that, and many of them choose to go there. But we also have a number of gay couples who are part of our our 10 o'clock Sunday morning service and, [00:34:30] uh, and feel very comfortable. I'm happy we've had some young people who who are struggling with their gender identity or I mean orientation, not gender identity. We have those two, actually, um, I spoke with one today, actually, uh, who who come? You know, they may not be every Sunday, and they may just kind of come for the service and then disappear again. [00:35:00] Um, I've had I've had people from other parts of New Zealand arrange to come see me to talk about their family situation when they came out or wanting to come out. And, um so it's more than just in Auckland. Um, the, uh I got a lot of wonderful emails and letters [00:35:30] from people in the gay community about the Christmas billboard who they really felt incredible affirmation. So I know it makes up for all the hate mail in a in a hurry. Uh, after several of these kind of billboards, the hate mail kind of just rolls off, but, um, the I used to try and answer all of it I don't bother anymore. [00:36:00] Um, I'm not going to change any minds in my correspondence. Just invites more nastiness. So I've stopped responding to the abuse. Uh, but it gives me a a lot of sympathy for the gay and lesbian community has suffered with that abuse all the time, you know, And it is personal there. So [00:36:30] when somebody from the community comes to you and they're kind of struggling, is this a struggle with the sexuality, or is it more about the sexuality and religion and how they kind of coexist or don't coexist? Yes. I mean, in some cases, it's a, uh, a young person who is pretty sure they know what their orientation [00:37:00] is, but they're not quite sure how to talk to anybody else about it. So they're coming to a safe place to try out how to talk about it. Um uh, some are coming because they come from conservative religious homes and they've heard all of all of the negative stuff, and they're coming to to get another take on it. Um uh, another way of understanding those parts of Scripture that are [00:37:30] always getting thrown at them, Um, and trying to get some reassurance from somebody who's in authority who wears a collar, who, you know, who in their minds from past experience is an unlikely place of support. And, uh, so I'm glad to be there for you. Um, I one of my bigger concerns [00:38:00] is the bullying they receive, the the nastiness they receive and trying to give them support and help them find support groups And, you know, places that will honour who they are and hold them up in the midst of that crap. Put a blood on. Um, but I'm also amazed at some of the young people have come to me who are quite clear and know what their orientation is and at a at a young age, you know, you, you know, mid [00:38:30] to late teens and and are quite articulate about it, but they just kind of want to work through some more issues with it, or they're they've been working with their family, but they're, you know, and they love their family, but their family is still struggling with it, and they're trying to figure out how to help the family deal with it. I mean, I have a Well, the child. She was born my nephew, but she's now my niece. And at the age of three or four new, she was transgender. [00:39:00] I mean, she didn't know the word, but she knew she was a girl. And she's being raised and supported as a girl and, uh, so that we're living in a slightly different world. You know, her parents of, uh, who are a lesbian couple. Um, have worked with the community, the schools, her friends, their neighbours to help them understand [00:39:30] her. Orient, her orientation, her gender orientation. Um, and, you know, she's growing up a very well adjusted young lady. Um, so that wouldn't have happened when I was young. Uh, maybe it wouldn't have happened 20 years ago. So, you know, the world is changing. We're we're making progress. And I'm hoping that while the church is pretty slow on this, it'll eventually come around on this, just [00:40:00] as it did on slavery, just as it did on civil rights. Uh, women, you know, um, maybe not universally, all at the same time. But as long as there are pockets of it, uh, we still provide some hope and honesty where the gospel is concerned. You've been talking about younger people coming to you. Is it also the case for older people coming to you as well? Or was it only young people? Well, I spoke [00:40:30] with a transgender woman today who's 72 and was a he until she was about 60. You, and finally was able to acknowledge she was married, is still married. The same person, you know. She's gone through all that, and she's dealing with some of the the hatred that's out there that she has been fortunate enough not to receive [00:41:00] until recently and trying to figure out how to respond to that. So she came into she was struggling. She just kind of hoped that maybe she could find someone to talk to. So she came in today. So we're a safe place, and people know that, and we will continue to be a safe place, Having received [00:41:30] both positive messages and also a whole lot of negative messages towards, um, this this kind of proactive, um, messaging, how do you keep on the positive side of things without kind of slipping into negativity and and and kind of hopelessness? Well, my hope is is actually in the gay and lesbian community itself, You know, the fact [00:42:00] that they've quit buying into the the crap, you know, that's been pushed on to them by the church and by homophobic people and, uh, and standing tall, you know, and living their lives and being wonderful people, uh, many of whom are quite faithful people who are care about the gospel and have shown great courage. So I have no trouble [00:42:30] finding the hope. Um, And I suppose when I first started getting this kind of mail, I'm an introvert. Um, in most of my ministry, I have not had a prominent place in the, you know, visibility. So until I came here, and that's where I learned all local news, it's national news, and now it's often international news. So it's, uh, that was new for me [00:43:00] and at first somewhat bewildered. Uh, like I told you, I used to answer all the hate mail thinking, I need to reach out and respond, Um, and and they were wounding. And now I'll read the first couple of sentences, and when I see where they're going, I just move on. And that's because we don't deserve to be abused [00:43:30] Now if people write, that's not to say that people who disagree can't write and offer their honest views. And in a respectful way, those all answer I just don't get many of them. But when I get one, I I'll respond to that, um, and try to open up a conversation with them. And occasionally that's been successful rarely, but occasionally. So, um, [00:44:00] but I now look at it as abuse. And if you let yourself just be abused, then you're buying into this. So I just refuse to be abused anymore. Has your time at Saint Matthew's changed your your faith in any way? Yes and no. Um, I mean, my faith journey has always been evolving. So it's It's [00:44:30] continued to evolve since I came to Saint Matthew's almost eight years ago. Um, and there's nothing like standing up and speaking your truth to deepen and push you forward into to where that truth leads. So in that sense, it's been quite formative. But the values I hold were there all along. They're just [00:45:00] deep up now, you know, to walk a path of faith will cost you if you Yeah, if you're willing to stand up for it. And so, yeah, I've taken some crap, um, and but the But I'm still here. I'm fine. Yeah. And so fears that I may have had before, [00:45:30] you know? I mean, I'm I'm used to walking lines before now. Walking line of not going over the line of pushing it the envelope too far before people are ready. Before, I used to push the envelope from the Orthodox side as far as I could, but not crossing that line, Uh, in a pulpit, I would cross the line frequently teaching or counselling. But I didn't do it from a public perspective. When I decided to put the collar back on, I decided this time [00:46:00] I was going to tell it exactly the way I saw it. Whatever it might cost, Um, and I was over. I still remember the first sermons I did that with and how anxious I was. And then I was amazed by how enlightened the congregation was because I was speaking things. They've been thinking anyway, but I hadn't heard from a pulpit. And so, you know, in that way my [00:46:30] faith has been strengthened. My, my, my values and beliefs haven't changed much. Um, but my faith is much stronger.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089512
TITLE: Out in the Square (2013)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Bella Simpson; Celia Wade-Brown; Grant Robertson; Harlen Wilkinson; Kevin Hague; Mike Bryant; Paula Barnett; Rob Evans; Roger Swanson; Rosie Jimson-Healey; Tighe Instone
INTERVIEWER: Jo Jackson / Grizz
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Armstrong and Arthur Charitable Trust for Lesbians; Bea Arthur; Bella Simpson; Bette Armstrong; Celia Wade-Brown; Civic Square / Te Ngākau; Community Law; Community Law (Hutt Valley); Community Law (Wellington); Des Smith; Diversity Liaison Officers (police); Faux Direction (musical group); Grant Robertson; Green Party; Harlen Wilkinson; Jo Jackson / Grizz; John Jolliff; Kevin Hague; LegaliseLove; Lesbian Action for Visbility Aotearoa (LAVA); Lesbian Information, Library and Archives Centre (LILAC); Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Lesbian and Gay Fair; Louisa Wall; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Mike Bryant; New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF); New Zealand Labour Party; New Zealand Police; Newtown School; Out Wellington Inc.; Out in the Square (Wellington); Paula Barnett; QUILTED BANANAS (Wellington Access Radio); Rob Evans; Roger Swanson; Rosie Jimson-Healey; School's Out (Wellington); St Andrew's on the Terrace; Thistle Gallery; Tighe Instone; Tranzform (Wellington); Tīwhanawhana; Wellington; Women's Refuge; biphobia; bisexual; bullying; church; civil unions; community; council; cycling; discrimination; diversity; drag; equality; fa'afafine; fagtastic; faith; feminism; gay; google. com; homelessness; homophobia; internet; intersex; invisibility; law; lesbian; love; marriage equality; media; military; peer support; performance; pink dollar; pink tourism; police; politics; queer; school; self confidence; social; spirituality; stereotypes; straight; suicide; support; trans; transgender; transphobia; txt; unidentified voice(s); visibility; wind; youth
DATE: 19 January 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Civic Square / Te Ngākau, Civic Square/Te Ngākau, Wellington
CONTEXT: Jo Jackson interviews stall holders and visitors to Out in the Square which was held in Civic Square, Wellington on 19 January 2013. The community fair has been held annually since 1986.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Alright. Uh, what's your name? Andrew. And are you enjoying the fair today? It looks pretty cool right now. I'm really excited for it. Um, what's what's the atmosphere like here? It's really lively. Really, really diverse and looks like a whole lot of fun. Everyone's enjoying themselves. Totally. Um, So, have you been to out in the square before? I went last year and only went briefly, Really? But this is my first real experience for it. And would you come again? Yes. Awesome. So, do you have any New Year's resolutions this year? No, I'm not. I don't expect [00:00:30] much of myself. Really. And, uh So what do you think are some of the biggest issues facing queer youth at the moment? Um, I think it's mainly battling homophobia and battling queer suicide right now, but I think we've got a pretty pretty good year coming up. We've tackled most security issues and mainly getting marriage equality done. And how do you feel about marriage? Equality? It should certainly go ahead. It's an issue about equality. It's about us being recognised as humans. As queer people. We're all humans. We should deserve marriage rights. All right. Thank you. very much. Thank you. [00:01:00] May I interview you? Yep. Sure. Awesome. What's your name? Caitlin. And how are you enjoying the square today? I'm loving it. It's really It's just so colourful. Have you been before? I went last year and that was also a lot of fun, more fun. But you know, at least people. So it's better this time. So, yeah, how how does this year compare? Um, so far it's looking pretty good. There are a lot of souls, and everybody just seems to be having a really good time. So far, we're dragging and passes by. It's great. Awesome. Um, what do you think of marriage? Equality? I think it's ridiculous [00:01:30] that marriage isn't equal already. I mean, as an institution, I'm not a fan of marriage, but I think that everybody should have the same rights. And if you could wish for one thing in the world, what would it be? Oh, my God, that is so hard. I would infinite wishes, infinite wishes and then marriage, equality. And what would you like to say to queer youngsters in 30 years time? I'd say, Just be who you are. Don't be afraid to be who you are. And don't be scared of what other people say. Because if they don't like what you're doing, then they're not important. [00:02:00] So you are. And I didn't need the speech to tell you this. Proud loud. I was gonna say colourful, but there is such a crinkling of Wellington charcoal. Come on, guys, brighten up. Yeah, you like you, Hamish, too. Just putting a little rainbow sticker on top doesn't do it, mate. That so out in the square [00:02:30] has been celebrated since 1986. Some of you weren't even born in 1986 and the rest of us can't remember it too well. It's a fabulous event. It's one I'm really proud of to acknowledge our diversity and our creativity. And it's a way to say thank you to each other for what you contribute to Wellington. Wellington's lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender [00:03:00] intersects and communities make a really important contribution to Wellington. You are Wellington. You are an essential contribution to the city and there are some absolutely fabulously wonderful opportunities in pig tourism. We're looking at closer relationships with San Francisco and Sydney, and that can only be [00:03:30] good for the pig dollar. So we support your council supports out in the square. It's great to see some of the other organisations like the police, the defence forces here as well. We celebrate fairness, equality and freedom. And 2013 is going to be a fabulous year for you for all of us. Because the marriage equality bill is coming up. And I'm sure there's gonna [00:04:00] be other people speaking about that a little bit more. But for those of us who believe that relationships are about love rather than tradition, I wish you every success. So you're making a difference in our little capital. We're here to really enjoy today Out in the square. Tata, Can I have a good round of applause for the man who's a great supporter of our communities? [00:04:30] Thank you. I also want to acknowledge my fellow MP Kevin Hay here. We did have an idea that Kevin and I might come in on a tandem together, but there seemed to be some weight differential issues. So, uh, Kevin, you really do need to lose a few pounds. No. So, um, it's great to see Kevin here as well and also to to for opening up for us today. Thank you very much. Look, I'm just so proud to be able to come out here as the MP for Wellington Central and representing the Labour Party at an event like out in the square. [00:05:00] And Celia mentioned that 1980 I actually think it might have been 1985 was the first year of the fear, and I want to make a special tribute to all of the people who've kept the fear going over the years. And I particularly want to mention, uh, Des Smith and John Jolliff today, um, who are, as you know, leading lights in our community. And I I've seen John. I haven't seen Dez yet today. When I asked John where deers was, he said he was cruising somewhere a frightening thought. No, [00:05:30] there they are. That's right. So I want to make a special mention, um, to deers, because I don't know if many people know this, but deers out of about 700 nominees has been placed as a semifinalist in the New Zealander of the year Local hero awards. So here applause, um, to Dez For that, the finals of that are in Auckland. But even making it to be a semifinal is just a fantastic effort from, uh, from Dez. And I want to thank Dez and John and really on behalf of all of the those who've gone before us and making [00:06:00] making the fear possible. Uh, Celia mentioned what a great year 2013 is going to be when we stand up on this stage next year, there will be marriage equality. That's what will happen. And that is a fantastic thing for New Zealand as a whole. And as Celia said, fundamentally, this is about love, about the fact that people should be allowed to love who they want and show their commitment to that. But it's also about [00:06:30] fairness, and it's also about what we want to say about New Zealand as a country. What do we want to be known for? And we want to be known as a country that treats people fairly and that is a good citizen in the world and marriage. Equality is a big part of that, and I am so proud on behalf of the Labour Party and my colleague Louisa Wall, who is sponsoring this bill to say that marriage equality will be in place It's a cross party thing. We've got strong, obviously support from the Green Party. We also have a lot of [00:07:00] national party. He's supporting this bill and we do need to acknowledge that. And this is a great thing. Marriage. Equality will be in place. And we'll take those further steps towards making sure that we have a fair and equal society. So I want you to enjoy the day today. There's fantastic stores all around the place. Make sure you visit them. Make sure you support the people who come along today. Enjoy the day. Enjoy the rest of 2013. Uh uh. You worship the mayor, Celia. My, [00:07:30] uh, my friend and colleague Grant Robertson. Uh, Councillor here today, uh, great to see you all. Um, it's It's a, I guess, kind of a rare occasion where I get to indulge two of my great passions cycling and homosexuality. And, um so thank you for the opportunity. Uh, I'm one of those people who at the beginning thought actually, it was a shame to move the fear from Newtown [00:08:00] into into the city. I really liked it out at Newtown, but one of the things that I've grown to love about it. Being here in the centre of the city is it's a way for our communities to take a full role as citizens of this city. Uh, and that's exactly what the marriage equality Bill is about, too. It's about saying we are entitled to the full rights and protections [00:08:30] of the law in New Zealand. We are part of this whole community, and we demand the right to equality. So this year, as Grant said, it's gonna be a a landmark year for for our communities and for our country. Uh, we've, um we've worked hard over the last year. There's still more work to go, but the signs are all promising for marriage equality before the middle of the year. And so here. Today, [00:09:00] uh, there is a marriage equality stall and and there is a petition on the stall. Please go and sign the petition. If you haven't and ask how you can help to get this bill through right next door to that, there's the Green Party store where we have to keep our assets petition, and we'd urge you to please try and sign that petition, too, because while we already have enough signatures. We want to make sure that if some of those turn out to be invalid, [00:09:30] we're going to have enough to make sure that there is a referendum this year and that John Key will no longer be able to claim that he has a mandate for asset sales. Our communities have always been supporters of justice, fairness and equitable policy for New Zealand. And it would be great to see you sign both of those. So have a fantastic day and and a great year ahead. Thank you. [00:10:00] Hi. Can I interview you? Yes. Please interview me. OK, so what's your name? My name is Paula Barnett Castillo. Ok, nice to meet you, Paula. And what's the stall you've got here? This is lesbian community radio programme. We air every Sunday from 10 to 11 on Wellington Access Radio 783 AM. And what sort of stuff do you play or or talk about? Or? Well, we've been on the air for over 20 years and we've done community notices. We do interviews. We do controversial [00:10:30] topics that are coming up. We talk about legislative bills that are in the parliament being debated that affect us we talk about feminist issues, we talk about sexual issues and we talk about issues that affect the general, gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender community in general. What sorts of things do you think are the biggest issues affecting the queer community at the moment? Um, well, they're universal issues. They involve [00:11:00] everything from gay marriage to same sex marriage to transgender voices being heard. Women who change from male to female or female to male are used. We like to promote their issues so that they feel supported. Biggest issues right now are around visibility. We lesbians fall, sometimes fall behind a translucent [00:11:30] screen or curtain behind gay men. So we're always having to say no, we're here too. We're gay, too, or whatever that word is because I know the word is now many words. So what if you're still selling or doing at the moment today we're letting people know about our show, and that is also podcast. So our show is broadcast live or sometimes prerecorded, but every Sunday morning in Wellington. But it is podcast three days afterwards, [00:12:00] and that is downloaded according to countries we know. So we've had Wellington access radio do some statistics and our show is listened to all over the world. So people who Google Lesbian Radio put that search string in will hit us whether they're in Czechoslovakia or New York or Japan, and we are supported. Our financing comes from the Armstrong and Arthur Trust for Lesbians, [00:12:30] which is a trust that was set up by a lesbian couple who created a trust when they passed away. So that is perpetual. So they our annual fees to be on air. Have you been to and out in the square before? I have. This is probably my fifth time here. And how does this compare to previous years? Much better. It's bigger. I can see it's bigger, it's better organised. There's more stallholder here. Pity [00:13:00] about the wind. All right. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. So can I interview you? Yes. Alrighty. Uh, what's your name, fella? So what's your position here today at the fair? Um, I'm a fairy. What does that entail? Um floats around and just sort of helps out with needed. Make sure there's no litter. Holds back to the box office. It doesn't blow away that sort of thing. Oh, yeah, and are you enjoying today? Uh, yes, it's heaps of fun. [00:13:30] Have you been to out in the square previously? Um, yes, a few times. And how does this year compare to previous years? Um, at the moment, bigger. There is so many more stalls. Um, it's just I guess it's all I've really noticed at the moment because it's really early in the morning. Yes. So do you think it all the hype will get even bigger as the day goes on? Um, yes. Yes, I'm sure it will. Awesome. OK, And if you could wish for one thing in the world, what would it be? Um, [00:14:00] for Lady Gaga to adopt me. All right. Done. Thank you very much. Thank you. Right. May I interview you? You certainly may. So what are you doing here today? Out in the square, we're representing the police D Network, the Diversity Liaison Officer Network within police, which goes out and gets involved within the GLBT communities around the country. We're a nationwide organisation within police made up of police staff, [00:14:30] both sport and non school. And so what sorts of things do diversity liaison officers do within the place? The a lot of the swan stuff. Yeah, the sword stuff generally deal with, um, any crimes or issues that may be GLBT I related, such as hate crime, which is a big thing at the moment. Family violence, All of those things that are kind of under reported within the GL BT I community, they are definitely there. The sworn staff get [00:15:00] out there and try and make themselves known to the GL BT I community and just try and act as a buffer for a lot of the people who may not feel comfortable talking to normal or non D police staff. So, yeah, it's just a little a buffer, if you like between the police and the public, it's just bridging those gaps. And so what are the DS doing today? Out in the out in the square? We're just basically getting ourselves out there and knowing within the Wellington [00:15:30] community. Um, of course, there's lots of people from around the country here today enjoying this lovely weather, Um, which hopefully will pick up, but, um, yeah, we're just getting out there and being being known. I mean, we've got contact with them. It's up at two minutes. The, uh, Pacific Cross gender transgender community as well. [00:16:00] So we've got contacts here with reestablishing and keeping those contacts open, chatting with people, just letting them know exactly what we are, what we do. How well received. Uh, pretty Well, yeah. Yeah. A lot of people like to see us here. Um, it's great to see the NZDF people here as well. The outreach branch of the NZ. This is their first year here, So it's good for us to be partnered with them [00:16:30] in the same corner holding hands. So it's government departments like NDF police, any of the other ministries. It's kind of seen as full of gaze, but they don't like to talk about it kind of thing, So it's good for them to be here. It's good for us to be here. Everybody seems to like us here. We haven't had any negative complaints. So good stuff, right? And you've been to Alton Square before? Yeah, This is my second year working on the soil for police, [00:17:00] but yeah, I've been here for several years, just as a pass by basically. And so how do you think the fair this year compares to previous years with us a little bit, but can't do anything about that. As far as the fear goes, we're still at the same stalls, same food. Everybody seems to be enjoying it. There seems to be more people this year, I think. General public walking around and not a lot of obviously [00:17:30] gay, lesbian, trans gender. Six people. There seems to be a lot of straight people here as well. I think it really, really good. And if you could wish for one thing in the world, what would it be? World peace. Thank you very much. May I interview you? Yeah. Alright. Can you tell me your name? I'm Harlan Wilkinson. Awesome. And what's the atmosphere like here at the square today? Pretty pretty uplifting. Oh, yeah. Not many people here yet, though. Do you think it will get better as well? Yeah. No heap of people will show up. [00:18:00] And have you been to out in the square before? How does it compare to previous years? Um, hard to say at the moment, because I've just got here, but it looks pretty good. Awesome. Do you have any New Year's resolution? No, I kind of gave up on that day. I was like, I'm gonna stop lying to myself about about losing weight and stop smoking, and I'm just gonna stop lying. Here we go. Um, So what do you think are some of the biggest issues facing queer people at the moment? I definitely think teenage suicide is [00:18:30] is a main one. That especially affects me personally because I've had a lot of experience with that. So that's our main one. And just general, the gay marriage thing as well just pisses me off. But hopefully we're getting on to that one. So what do you think that we can do as a community to help solve those issues? Well, I mean, we have places like schools out that offer places for teens and stuff, which is really cool. And we have legalised love which is rallying for gay marriage. So I think we're we're definitely doing things which is good, Alright. And do you think those issues are on their [00:19:00] way to being resolved? I definitely think they are. Yes, Awesome. So what do you think of marriage? Equality? I think it's awesome and that we should totally have marriage equality. If you could wish for one thing in the world. What would it be? Ah, can't answer that. It's too hard. What would you like to say to queer youngsters in 30 years time? 30 years time? Well, hopefully you have it a lot better now than we did. I mean, we have it pretty good, but hopefully it'll be even better in 30 years. Awesome. Thank you very much. [00:19:30] Hi. May I interview you? Certainly not a problem. Brilliant. What's your name? Roger Swanson. And how are you enjoying the fair today? So far, I've good. It's a bit chilly at the moment, but there's warming up. The sun is starting to come out, so hopefully and the wind was starting to die down. And what's your store? This is the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand's store known as leg ends. And so we store community archives the memory of the gay and lesbian trans community and preserve it [00:20:00] for the future. That's our sort of rocks. And why are you doing that? Well, I think the gay and lesbian history has been hidden and and with all that's been happening, it will disappear. If someone doesn't keep it, then there'll be no future for it. But like you think of gay law reform was 85 and now we're looking at the Marriage Equality Act. So the huge change that's happened over the last 2030 years Um, if we don't keep our own history, no one else is going [00:20:30] to keep it. And it'll only be left to the newspapers and things like that. And what sorts of things that you're still doing today. Well, basically, we've We've been signing people up as friends of the archive because we're a community archive, and so we need support from people to keep it going and to finance preservation of material. And we're trying to digitise a lot of audio tapes and things like that. So gay BC lesbian radio, and that would cost money. So, um, we were fundraise for that, Um, [00:21:00] we often we have had a number of conferences, and so we've published the proceedings of those, um, on gay history lesbian history. So, um, that's what we you know. That's what we do. We've got those to sell here a few copies of those and, um, what do you think are the biggest issues facing queer people today? It's quite tricky, really. I mean, I think it's, um, self confidence. Um, I think it's, um, there's issues around youth in schools. Um, certainly, [00:21:30] if you look at the progression from like I said, gay law reform to marriage equality, you can see huge changes in the public arena. But I still think, um, people are gay and lesbian people coming out. It's still hard. Um, it's difficult, um, but in one sense, it's easier because there are a lot more visibility. There's a lot more role model to choose from. You can see famous people who are gay or lesbian. You can see neighbours, uncles, whatever are [00:22:00] out, and so that makes it easier. But it's still not easy, but it makes it easier. I don't think. And what sorts of things do you think that we can do as a community to make it a bit better? I think have events like this. So you're visible and make, uh, gay lesbian stuff fun, you know, Um, so it's not a it's not a dreary burden, you know, it's part of your life and you lead it and you and we encourage people to have a good life. I mean that. That's and I think if we can do that, that would be [00:22:30] amazing. Brilliant. And if you could wish for one thing in the world, what would it be? Peace, harmony and love. All right. Thank you very much. Thank you. May I interview you? Of course you can. Brilliant. Uh, what's your name? Maria. And so what are you doing here today at the store? I am here to promote, uh, schools out. Awesome. And what schools out do as a as an organisation? Type of, uh, group that we organise for, like, uh, college students that are unsure about [00:23:00] their sexuality or want to maybe meet other people that are in this sort of diversity or whatnot. So pretty much we accept gay, trans, lesbian and any other shades of grey. Awesome. And what's the atmosphere like today at the fair? It's windy, but it's nice and packed, and there's lots of lovely people today. What do you think are some of the biggest issues facing queer people today? Um, I? I don't know. It's kind of it's not as bad as it was last year. I feel like that. The biggest [00:23:30] thing right now that people have been discussing is probably about the equal rights about the marriage and everything like that, which is fair enough we all want to be equal, not be diverse into one little bubble. And what sorts of things do you think we can do to counteract? Um, I guess just get a lot of support from Not just like in the queer community, but also, maybe people like that are supportive of the queer community. Or maybe, you know, the biggest challenge will be trying to get churches [00:24:00] to be equal as well. But everyone's got their own beliefs and everything like that. Awesome. Um, if you could make one wish, what would it be? Hm? That's a trick question. Uh, probably just to have peace and happiness in this world. And if you could say one thing to queer youngsters in 30 years time, what would you say? Fantastic. Awesome. Thank you so much. May I interview [00:24:30] you? Yes. Awesome. What's your name? My name is Rosie Jimson Healy. And, um, what's your store today? Our stall is community law. Wellington. Yeah. So we're we're here representing our two officers in Wellington and Hutt Valley. Um what sort of thing does community law do we give free legal advice? So we give free legal advice on family employment, tenancy, criminal, a whole range of issues, Um, to people in the community, it's totally free. Um, we also offer Specialist, um, drop in services. So there's an advice for women's session and [00:25:00] one for refugees and migrants. Um, and we also do law reform projects. So supporting, um, things in the community, People in the community who want to see a law changed. Um, and we also offer free legal education to community groups, schools, things like that. So how does that apply to the sort of square nature of the staff? Sure. So I think that why One of the reasons we're here is that we want to be able to connect to our queer communities and offer legal support for queer people. LGBTI Q people. [00:25:30] I think that a lot of queer people feel alienated from some social services, and so it's really good to have our faces here and show that we're a friendly organisation who is open to everyone and inclusive and diverse and cares about queer issues. And have you been to Alton Square before Yes. I was here last year on the transform store, and I've been here. I came when it was the gay and lesbian fair when I was a little girl. Like so, Yeah, I've been here for quite a few. And how does this year compare to previous years? Oh, it's a really [00:26:00] good feeling. Everyone's really happy and smiling. There are lots of exciting stories. I think it's, um, really great. Awesome. Thank you so much. May I interview you? Yes, you may. Awesome. Uh, what's your name? Caitlin. And how are you enjoying the square today? I'm really loving it. Yeah. What's the atmosphere like? Really Happy tonnes. Tonnes are just queers. Awesome. Um, would you say they're being gay? I would say that, you know, as a it's a natural state for most people. Awesome. Um, [00:26:30] have you been to Alton Square before? Yes, I have. And how does that compare? You mean today? Yeah. Today, Um, it's pretty fucking great so far. And, uh, why? Well, it's just a really happy atmosphere, and I'm just really happy to be here at the awesome. Do you have any New Year's resolutions? Um, not really. No, just you know, meet more queers. What do you think are some of the biggest issues facing queer people today? [00:27:00] Probably just. I think it's starting to have, like, a sort of social acceptance among like, I suppose, heterosexual society of people that it's, you know, your general answer to someone being like Oh, I'm gay is not It's more like, oh, cool kind of thing. So I think it's more just getting rid of, like the the people who are really, really aggressive about it and like that's always been a problem. But I think now [00:27:30] that it's starting to become less of an issue, I suppose so. How do you think we can fully resolve those issues? I suppose it it needs to be. There needs to be more acceptance, like it needs to not be something that is It needs to be a generational thing, like a lot of people need to just grow up and accept that it's OK. And so what would you like to say to queer youngsters in 30 years time? Oh my God, I want to be you. It sounds like it's gonna be awesome. And [00:28:00] if you could wish for one thing in the world. What would it be? Um Oh, God, Yeah. Acceptance. May I interview you? You certainly. What's your name? Robert. Are you enjoying the square today? I am indeed enjoying the It's vibrant, Which is unusual for anything before noon. Have you been to out in the square before? I have. This is my second time. And how does this year compare to enjoy it? Enjoy it. [00:28:30] Just exciting. It's more exciting. More stuff going on. Do you have any New Year's resolutions? Oh, you try to avoid making New Year's resolutions. What do you think are some of the biggest issues facing queer people today? Oh, God. Where do you start? Um I mean, I wouldn't know where to start, and I wouldn't really know if I'm the most qualified person to talk about them. But, you know, LGBT youth, homelessness, discrimination [00:29:00] in the workplace. Discrimination in public in general. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Where do you start again? I'm not sure. I the most qualified person to speak about it. And what would you like to say to queer youngsters in 30 years time? It's a tough one. I hope we made it easy for you down the line. If you could wish for one thing in the world to get through the whole year and still be able [00:29:30] to fit into these jeans. Awesome. Thank you so much. May I interview you? Yes. Awesome. What's your name? Ellen. And what are you doing today here at the Square? I, um, am here with the Saint Andrews on the terrace stall. And we have a couple of things happening today. We have a fabulous tree, which we're seeking to kind of, like, build up out of, um, community, uh, hopes, um, things that [00:30:00] people celebrate, um, and things they change they want to see and be part of. So we're asking people to write on a little bit of paper and tie it onto our tree. We're going to build a colourful community tree, and we're also selling some delicious baking. And we also have some postcards to MPs who voted in support of marriage equality, asking them, thanking them for doing that. So is marriage equality something important to the store? It's something important to the ST Andrews [00:30:30] and the terrace community. Yeah. Yeah, totally. So, yeah. Trying to just put that out? Yeah, And so, what do you think are some of the biggest issues facing queer people today? Um, I think there are. There are lots, and it depends who we are and where we are. Um, I'm, um Yeah, I guess I'm aware that, um, [00:31:00] you know, right here, standing in this, um, like, love filled place, it feels wonderful to be queer, but there's lots of places in New Zealand where it's not so wonderful at any given moment. Workplaces, schools. Um, so I think that, um there's the issues of, um, people being able to be open about who they are and not suffer [00:31:30] negative consequences. Yeah, and OK, yeah. I'll just do that for now. What sort of things do you think that we can do as a community to rectify those issues? Uh, well, I guess, uh, one of my real, um, real, uh, things that's close to my heart is, um, faith communities being welcoming and inclusive places. And, um, you know, [00:32:00] sadly, it's not the case that you could say that for every church. So, um and so I think for those those faith communities that that do, um, do welcome everyone and do kind of see that sexuality and the variety of sexuality in the world as a kind of manifestation of the amazing diversity of humanity [00:32:30] and reflects the diversity of God that we we need to sort of speak out about that and be beacons in whatever way we can so that queer people know that. So there are spiritual communities and spiritual paths for queer people. As for all people, So that's something that is particularly important to me. And if you could wish for one thing in the world, what would it be? Uh, [00:33:00] I guess that the world that my daughter grows up in is one where, um, more people are able to to experience, um, experience the joy of, um of Well, [00:33:30] I don't know their needs being met and knowing community. So what are you doing today here at the Square? Well, we are performing, Um, and also just We come to the square every year out in the out in the square every year, just to, you know, catch up with people and support it. What's your act? We call faux directions. So we're a group of four women and we've come together, kind of like a queer take on on a boy band and [00:34:00] we've got to mesh up with three songs. I'll make sure to record some of it. OK, yeah. So definitely this year compared to previous years, it's windier. Um oh, I think I don't know. It's probably going to be the same. I don't know, You know, it's It's always a good vibe. Um, it's great to have performers and stalls and, you know, you catch up with people that you haven't seen, so I don't know. It's only started today. So what's the atmosphere like today? Oh, [00:34:30] it's great. I think you know, Wellington. We're kind of pretty laid back. And, um, enjoying what's happening and just going with the flow. Do you have any New Year's resolutions? I do. I have many, actually one you'd like to share. Oh, yeah, Well, um, I wanna be relaxed, be really present. And Oh, this is my what I've got, uh, follow your bliss from Joseph Campbell. So I really wanna do what my heart wants to do for them. And what would you like to say if we're youngsters [00:35:00] in 30 years time, right? Oh, I just love yourself. And, um be whoever you are, you know, and do whatever you want to do and just be proud and just be joyful. Awesome. Thank you so much. May I interview you? You may, uh What's your name? Uh, boy Name or drag? Name? You. Mama Desire. Also known as my And what are you doing today? I'm actually [00:35:30] a performer. And, well, it's a song called If You Hadn't, But you did. And I'm performing with my lovely ex-boyfriend Jeremy, who's decided to help me out, and basically I shoot him and killed him and beat up his dead body. It's a very nice, family friendly show. So are you enjoying the square today? Absolutely. I'm having so much fun. I always enjoy the square. This is my fifth year. So how does this year compare to previous years? Uh, well, it's quite [00:36:00] early in the day to tell. Uh, so far, it doesn't seem quite as busy as the others. But, I mean, I performed in the opening ceremony, so it's got to be better than last year's, right. Thank you. I'm glad you agree. Absolutely. I would with you. Thank you. Darling. Do you have any New year resolution uh, my new year. No, no, I don't have any. I don't believe in them because I them up. Anyway, I probably buy more DVD S or not. Buy or not buy as many DVD [00:36:30] S. I'm not sure what of those Something about DVD S. So what do you think are the biggest issues facing? I think the biggest issue is transphobia within the community and biphobia as well. Biphobia is a word. I don't understand when the queer community disowns trans people or bisexual people because we're all a big community and we should support each other. And I think that before we get marriage, equality or adoption or anything, we need to be unified. [00:37:00] Get over ourselves. How's that? Like I interview you. Name Julia. Julia. And are you enjoying it so lovely? Like everybody's so friendly. Everybody is just I don't know. Everybody is just coming together as a community. It's lovely. [00:37:30] Have you been to my first time? Yes, I would love to, but I don't know. What do you think of the biggest issues facing queer people today? Just the acceptance. I mean, within the community, I think outside, you know, because I mean if they saw this, I'm sure they'd [00:38:00] be fine with it because it's just so lovely. And they're missing out on something beautiful. Yeah. So I mean, I think the people who are against this need to be more open minded and, you know, see how happy everybody actually is. What do you think? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm totally for it, you know. [00:38:30] There, you know, it's you're marrying someone you want to be with for the rest of your life. You know, it should be It doesn't matter what sex they are or anything. It's just, you know, they should be happy and happy that they totally for you know, everybody, you know, lovely day. You know, for people to get, you know, the marriage. [00:39:00] I can't even word it. But you know you know what I mean. Yes, you can. So what are you doing today? This is the HQ store for out Wellington, the organisation behind running out of the square. So this one's just mainly here to liaise with all the volunteers and all the crews. So they've all got a central point so we can make the sphere run fabulously. Oh, very proud. Couldn't have asked for [00:39:30] or could have asked for a better day. Actually, the wind could have gone away, but the crowd is still early and we have a massive crowd. So what more could you want? And the atmosphere is energetic and enthusiastic, and there's so many people out here being proud to be who they are. What kind of out in the square is to bring into the public light just the diversity and put our our groups, our cultures, [00:40:00] our diversity all out there for the public eye, just for everyone to see and celebrate to celebrate our life and who we are. And do you think you're achieving that? I definitely do. Yeah, so you think Will you be involved in the? I certainly hope so. I have thoroughly enjoyed the first year on the committee, and I have thoroughly enjoyed every up, every down, every bump, every high, every low. It's it's been so exciting, [00:40:30] it can't explain. And if you could wish for one thing in the entire world, what would it be? More sun? Thank you so much. May I interview you? Sure. What's your name? My name is Matt, and what's the atmosphere like here in the square. Pretty good, Really. People are a bit excited and busy moving around a lot, so that's good. Are you enjoying it? I am. I only just got here, but I'm having a good time. Awesome. How long have you come to the square? Before I came last year. Last year was first time. [00:41:00] I had a great time, actually. Well, I've only just got here, really? So I couldn't really answer that. But it is looking good. Yeah, not too bad. But last year was gorgeous. Do you have any New Year's resolutions? Do I have any New Year's resolutions? Less text? That's that's been my resolution. All right, What do you think are some of the biggest issues facing? [00:41:30] Uh, well, I think we're slowly as our generation comes through, we're transitioning from, um it's less a problem of awareness and more a problem of understanding because, um, you know, I don't think we have a problem. I mean, we've got events like this, you know, gay culture. It's very visible, but it's not well understood. And there's a lot of stereotyping that goes on that, you know, isn't necessarily true. So [00:42:00] yeah, we are We're transitioning from a stage, I think, where we need to focus on understanding more than visibility. What sort of things do you think that we can do as a community to rectify those issues? Well, that's a good question. Um, events like this, uh, you know, a a really, really good start. And, uh, I think the other thing is, uh, more getting in on the media. Both, you know, fictional representations. And, um, and not just not just sort of fictional representations, [00:42:30] but also the in in nonfiction as well. And in the news, you know, Do we have any openly gay news anchors? Probably. But I'm not. I wouldn't know. But, you know, it's it's about getting out there, getting involved in politics and in and the news reporting. Um, what do you think? I think marriage equality is hugely important. I [00:43:00] was actually reading an article just yesterday, um, by a UK evangelical minister who said, uh, marriage predates both state and church, and it is neither of their domain. And I think marriage should be open to everyone and anyone, regardless of you know, their sexuality, or even what gender they identify with. Or if they identify with one at all. So what would you like to say to queer youngsters [00:43:30] in 30 years in 30 years time? I would hope that I don't have to say anything special to them because they should be treated just like everyone else. Can you? Yes. Awesome. What's your name? Or or Max? All right. So is this your first time here at a square? No. This is my 40, yeah. So, uh, how does this year compare to previous years? What's the atmosphere like? I think I think this is the best one I've been to. There's a lot more stores and a lot more [00:44:00] people. And just the vibe is a lot nicer. Yeah. What's the vibe like? Like everyone's kind of excited and running around and, you know, happy, smiling. Brilliant. Do you have any this year to swear this and to maintain a B plus average at uni? Good luck. Thank you. Some of the biggest issues facing we today, um I think people who can't look past, you know their set ideas about how people [00:44:30] in society should be and people who just can't look past it even if they don't agree they can't see the bigger picture. Right? And how do you think that we can resolve some of those issues? Gentle guidance. Maybe they should come to after the Squire. I do. I think it's good. I think. I think it's definitely something we need. You know, New Zealand has always been quite a forward country, and I feel we should keep up with that kind of forward, you know, image [00:45:00] any time I have. What would you like to say if we're youngsters in 30 years time, I think Keep strong. Don't worry. Things get better. And if you could wish for one thing in the entire world, what would it be? Equal rights for all. Hi. Can I interview you? Yes, you can. So what's your name? Nathaniel. And call me Nate. Nate. All right. And so, what are you doing here today? I'm at the school's out school. [00:45:30] What is schools out? A place for queer youth. And are you straight people you can come to? So you Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Just for talking and stuff like that. Oh, yeah. Um So what's the atmosphere like today? How square. It's quite good. It's very talkative. It's great. and a whole bunch of people are coming around, so it's really good. What's what's you What have you got here today at the school? What are you doing today? Here? Um, we have a whole bunch of flyers, and, uh, you gotta guess how many [00:46:00] lollies are very. It's a dollar to do so. And all the funds go to help schools out, and the is there as well. Awesome. Um, So, how well received is your stolen? Well, it's quite good today. Actually. I believe I think we've made quite a lot of money with people trying to guess how many lollies are in the jar. I haven't done it yet, but I'm sure a lot of people have. And we have quite a lot of numbers. And, um, have you been involved in a square? Yes, it has. I think most of them, actually. [00:46:30] Oh, yeah? Yeah. And do you think we'll come back next year as well? Of course. Yeah. I'd love to help Bones as well. Awesome. Um, what do you think are some of the biggest issues facing queer youth at the moment in New Zealand, I think mostly like along the lines of like bullying and stuff like that, I guess. But, um, and just like Homeless Quay youth as well is something that we need to look at, which is along the line as that. And how do you think we can rectify those issues? Um, I guess just help out as much as we can, right? And and, um, [00:47:00] put the message out there that, you know, there are people that can help you, and you just need to find it. And what sorts of places, like schools out there are also, like, where you lines, you can call the numbers, and they will definitely help you out with the spot. Um, you just need to, like, just google it. I'm sure you can find them anywhere. Especially in your school. Um, you can find out school schools, out things, things like that. Um what would you like to say? To where youngsters [00:47:30] in 30 years time? What do you mean? In 30 years time? What do you mean? I mean people who are queer in 30 years time. What would you like to say to them if you could speak to them now? Um, just stay strong and just everything you're going through right now, um, makes you stronger in the end. And if you could wish for one thing in the world, what would it be? Oh, I'd have to wish for So in the future that people won't have to, like, come out of a closet and things like that, they could just live their lives. Awesome. Thank you so much. [00:48:00] Hi. May I interview you? Yes, you may. So what is the store? Um, this is the refuge out in the store, out in the square store. So we kind of sell off some of our clothes that we haven't needed or our and raise some money for refuge. What is refuge? Um, women's refuge as a service provider for women who experience domestic violence in the Wellington community. So we offer safe house and community social work services for women who are living with Right. Um So what is the state of domestic violence in New Zealand at the moment? [00:48:30] What is the state of domestic violence in New Zealand? Um, well, I think, you know, like as we see on the news, that it's pretty. It's a pretty big problem. And, you know, our current stats are around. One in three women will experience domestic violence at some point in her life. Um, and that's that includes physical, sexual or psychological abuse. And certainly, as a laws have changed and things like it's not OK, Campaign has started. We've got lots busier. So I think refuges all over the country are experiencing lots of, you know, lots of need. [00:49:00] So how well received is your stall in the square? It seems really well received. I think people are quite interested in refuge and, you know, people like cheap clothes. So it's a win win situation. Awesome. Um, so what's the atmosphere like today? It seems just like it is every other year that it's really nice and really friendly. And there's lots of kind of diverse people and, yeah, diverse stores and cool entertainment. So you've been out in the square. This is about at least our third time third time in a row. We've had a store here. And how does this year compare to previous years? It [00:49:30] just I mean, it's it's always really awesome. Um, so, yeah, I would say it's as good as other years and yeah, excellent. Um so if you could wish for one thing in the entire world. What would it be? Um, I don't know. Really good funding for domestic violence services. Thank you so much. What are your names? I'm Tiggy and Stone, and I'm Rob Evans. Alright. Uh, so is this your first time here? Out in the square [00:50:00] here? About three or four years now. And how does this year compare to previous years? Um, don't seem to be seen to be people as previous years, but that may be just where we're placed at this time as well. So what does the armstrong and art the charitable trust do? Well, um, it it it was set up by B. Arthur who? Who was Betty [00:50:30] Armstrong was her partner for 57 years. Betty had died and be set up the trust to be benefit lesbians in the north Island, Uh, south of man area. Really? Um, so, So to fund projects that benefit lesbians. Awesome. And so, what sorts of projects are you guys involved in now? Well, we fund lesbian radio, and we fund, [00:51:00] um, we fund Lila, we give funding to to lila, and, um, and then we've got a, uh we We take applications for projects twice a year, the end of January, the end of July, And then we look at those and and and examine them, but against the criteria that we have. And, um And look at how much money we've got available as well. And so we might just fund [00:51:30] a particular aspect of of of something. You know, um, we can't always, uh, do the whole thing. For example, um, a woman has a boat shed, that lesbian that she allows lesbians to work in free of charge. So if people are doing study or painting or whatever or music, they can go and use the boat shed, um, for no charge. And we [00:52:00] pay for the electricity, things like that. So what is your still doing here today? We're selling cards and Betty were both artists, and Betty was prolific, the not quite so prolific. And we had we, uh a few years ago, we had a up at the Thistle Gallery. We had an exhibition of their paintings, and we sold a lot of them. But we we also photographed them all first so that we could make cards and we've got postcards and, [00:52:30] you know, cards that go in envelopes one and, um and we're selling those so that just for fundraising and we're selling plants as well. Um, so what do you think are some of the biggest issues facing for people today? Um oh, what do you think are some of the issues Just trying to think There certainly aren't as many issues as there were before. [00:53:00] Uh, and it's by the number of people that we're seeing here of the different age groups proves that things are becoming easier for them. Um, and just the likes of groups like ours and other ones makes it easier for them to become involved in the community, find like minded, friendly people that they can associate with. And I'm not quite sure what that was that went with it. A pamphlet or a card. [00:53:30] I think it is getting stronger. And, um, how do you think we can try to make those issues better today? I guess just to make sure that there is plenty of avenues where they can contact people to talk to people that are friendly and non judgmental, et cetera. And I mean, yes, I think festivities like [00:54:00] today a bear. I watched a young man walk in earlier. He was very young and he looked very nervous and very shy. But I thought once he gets in here and feels the sort of the festive spirit and he'll meet people and be comfortable and I think that's for the young people, that's really, really important that we're out. They're invisible. We used to have in the eighties an organisation called Lesbian Action for Visibility and because visibility [00:54:30] was a really, really important, um, political action because we'd be invisibility had been something that we'd have to fight against for so long for many years. I mean, you know, we weren't We weren't even in that included in the criminal law because the politicians thought it was it was better to keep us invisible than to let people know that we were that we were out there and we existed. All right, so if you could wish for one thing in the entire [00:55:00] world, what would it be? It's a tough one, I. I think for everybody in the queer community to be accepted as as normal heterosexual people are just we're all normal and you get rid of prejudice. Yes, the the even. Even though things that have improved since home sexual law reform and the human rights legislation. Um, [00:55:30] I think and I think when civil unions came in, although I was against the civil unions because it put it, it made a double standard in the law. But equally, it set up a situation where we were celebrating our relationships rather than protesting about about what was being what was happening to us. And that was that was the first thing that I became aware of. I think I think we must celebrate our relationships and and and and put it out there. Lovely. Thank you so much.

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TITLE: Georgina Beyer profile
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VOICES: Georgina Beyer
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; 2000s; About Face: Jewel's Darl (tv, 1985); Alfies 1; Anne Kennedy; Annie Goldson; Aotearoa New Zealand; April Ashley; Auckland; Australia; Bill of Rights Act (1990); Brett Sheppard; Brian Tamaki; Carmen Rupe; Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Cathy Casey; Change for the Better: The Story of Georgina Beyer As Told to Cathy Casey (2000, book); Chris Carter; Chrissy Witoko; Christian Heritage Party; Christine Jorgensen; Civil Union Act (2004); Close to Home; Club Exotic; Club Exotique; David Shearer; Destiny Church; Exclusive Brethren; Foreshore and Seabed Act (2004); Garth McVicar; Gender Identity Bill (2004); Georgie Girl (2001); Georgina Beyer; Graham Capill; HIV / AIDS; Helen Clark; Hero (Auckland); Human Rights Act (1993); Jacquie Grant; John Banks; John F. Kennedy; John Key; Jonathan Hunt; MMP (mixed-member proportional electoral system); Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Marilyn Waring; Martin Luther King Jr; Michael Laws; New Zealand Labour Party; Parliament buildings; Paul Holmes; Paula Bennett; Peter Wells; Phil Goff; Prostitution Reform Act (2003); Ramon Maniapoto; Raymond Hawthorne; Royal Oak Hotel; Salvation Army; Sandra Coney; Shark in the Park (tv); Sonja Davies; Stewart Main; Sue Bradford; Sue Kedgley; Sydney; Taranaki; Te Whiti-o-Rongomai; The Balcony / Le Balcon; Tim Barnett; Tony Katavich; Vladimir Luxuria; Wairarapa; Warren Lindberg; Wellesley College; Wellington; Wyatt Creech; abuse; acting; adoption; butch; censorship; civil rights; civil unions; community; courts; cracking it; discrimination; documentary; drugs; employment; equality; family; feminism; gambling; government; growing up; hate speech; history; homophobia; human rights; law; leadership; media; parents; passport; performance; police; politics; poofter; pride; prison; profile; public figure; public office; pyscho-sexual disorder; queer; rape; respect; rural; sissy; social welfare; sprung; striptease; suicide; television; theatre; transcript online; transexual; transgender; transphobia; violence; visibility
DATE: 21 January 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, I was born, and it sort of started from there, I guess. Um, the circumstances, um when I was born, um, my father worked at, uh, in the New Zealand police at the time, and, um, I think was stationed at, um, Taranaki Street police station. Um, then, uh, my mother was trained nurse training. I think through Bowen and other hospitals like that. They [00:00:30] lived in Dundas Street in and, um, I was born, and but by about three months or more, you know, maybe six months old, Certainly before I was a year old. Um, their marriage went on the rocks because my father was a compulsive gambler and he had stolen £18 from the lost and found at the Taranaki Street police station [00:01:00] and got caught. And I was made an example of and convicted and jailed. And, um, when he went into jail, my mother was pregnant again, and, um, and suddenly she was left solo. You know, um, at that time, So I was put into the, um um So, uh, the Salvation Army home in Newtown or something? Somewhere at the time to be looked after they had a facility. Um, there and, [00:01:30] um, I think she must have proceeded with that, uh, next pregnancy. And, um, but arranged for that child to be adopted out at birth. And, um, with my father's consent, But he was on side, and then she divorced him. And so she got it sorted, so to speak. In the meantime, she was not very happy with the care of me, uh, being undertaken at the home that, [00:02:00] um, I was put in and she had persuaded her parents in Taranaki to look after me. And, uh, so that's where I went and was and stayed there essentially until I was about four or five. And by that time, um, she had remarried to Colum buyer, and, um, and as soon as that happened, she recalled me from her parents, and I went to live in the family home at that time, which was in Victoria Street in Upper hut. And [00:02:30] he had freshly, um, you know, what do you call it qualified as a lawyer. And, um, so on and so forth was starting out in practise and, um, and involved with people like, um, colleagues, friends, school friends and stuff from Wellington College days. Briley and co. And indeed, Colin, my stepfather, his brother Trevor, Ron Briley and various others, um, established what became Briley investments, amongst [00:03:00] other things. And, um mhm. So that was the family unit. We moved to Crofton Downs. Um, after my brother half brother was born Andrew, who was born in 1963. And, um, I went to, um, primary school, uh, went to Wellesley Preparatory College for Boys and Bay for two years, one year as a boarder the last year. [00:03:30] And, um, and then that second marriage My mother and, uh, whose name is Noeleen, None buyer. And, uh um, and Colin, They also had a marriage break up. And, uh, after that, mother and Children moved to Auckland. Can you describe yourself as a child? Oh, best to ask others. Um, I suppose for observations, um, [00:04:00] for want of a better term, my trans sexuality began mis manifesting at about four years of age through, um, play, I guess. Um when I was on the farm up in Taranaki with my grandparents, the only friend of my age was a girl who lived down the road called Joy Mackel down. And we played together a lot you know, as kids, you know, the farm is just down the road, as you do. And I used to love driving into her [00:04:30] dress up box. And, um, and, you know, we'd play, you know, as kids I talking, you know, 345. You know, kids playing and, um, and that kind of thing. And put on the, um what would you call it? Exhibitions in front of the adults when they had had a few beers at the end of haymaking day or something like that, you know, And it was that cute, and the kids would run around doing that, and I'd sort of be in some old or something, [00:05:00] and they all laughed and enjoyed that, you know, and stuff like that. But I sort of continued with I, you know, keep being effeminate, I guess. And, um, so by the time I was a bit older, um, you know, 78, you know, so still doing that behaviour? It was starting to be frowned upon and, um, you know, and told to stop doing it and so on and so forth. The conditioning. Oh, my God. [00:05:30] We got to queer some on our hands Christ, we better start conditioning them, Um, you know, and, uh, you know, it's like you can't blame them. Really? Um, so I guess on the more serious side of things, what I'm saying is, as I began to detect that their behaviour was unacceptable. And so I started to be more. I started to be more secretive about it because it wasn't worth the punishment that would come with it. So when I was, you know, getting caught, uh, you know, a bit of a, you know, hiding, [00:06:00] I suppose. Call them on occasion, especially when I persisted and got caught out because I was too dumb. But I became very secretive about dressing up, waiting for times of aloneness and and all of that to be able to sort of, you know, sneak in and do it learning to replace things in my mother's wardrobe and stuff like that, precisely as I had found them. So that she wouldn't suspect, you know, um, or anything like that that I sort of tried on clothes and things [00:06:30] like that and then got bold enough to go marching outside of the house sometimes and down the road. And of course, the neighbours, Whatever would see the You don't go into the shopkeeper dressed up like that and not be noticed by a local shopkeeper who sees you every other day, you know, or what? In there. And, uh, yes, mother, You know, they'd find out and you get told off. So all of that kind of stuff, this wouldn't be unusual. Kind of sort of reactions that all of us in our various forms probably went [00:07:00] through of learning that what we were thinking was just quite normal for us is, is is not approved of and so suppress it and there and starts the, um, the incredible mountain to climb. After that. You don't know it until you're a bit older and worldly wise, and, um, and you capitulate. Or some kinds of behavioural problems begin to emerge. Not always overt, [00:07:30] but sometimes more introverted. You know, you just learn to shut down on things and avoid the ridicule. Avoid getting yourself into situations of of having the gay bash in heaven, You know, to your your little stop being a girl's blouse, You know, um and and that kind of stuff and we all would have tolerated it probably at some stage, you know. [00:08:00] Hm. It's easy in hindsight, to look back and sort of try and figure out why things happen at the time. You just cope, don't you? And, um, And I did so right up until you know, college. So by the time you get to high school and stuff like that and I guess having been to a, you know, a mix of state school and private school. I had a bit of both worlds, so to speak. Strangely enough, my first night at Wellesley College when I was, [00:08:30] uh when I boarded there, I was sort of strangely terrified. You know, I was a bit of a culture shock For what were 11, 12, 13, um, suddenly been put into this all boys school, and, um, temporarily I had to stay in a in a dormitory, which was for the senior kids, uh, form to, um uh, kids. And I couldn't remember. No, I won't. I won't put this on the record. I don't think it's necessary. Don't want to bring the school into disrepute, [00:09:00] but boys will be boys, you know. Oh, what are you doing? Oh, what's that? Um, I'll leave it there to the audience's imagination. Um, at that time, were you aware of any talk about either homosexuality or No, I think No, no, no, no. Those definitions didn't. It was just sort of, um I exuded [00:09:30] a behaviour that was disapproved of I suppressed it and, um and, you know, because they might have won the battle. But I'll fight the war. And until I read the little red school book, which we all did at the time, which was sort of a, um you know, a notable little weed publication that school kids got hold of. And I talked about things beyond, you know, about homosexuality and [00:10:00] bisexuality. They sort of defined sexual, you know, orientations, et cetera. Um, and it and it had other things like, you know, swear words. Anyhow, anyhow, it, um, sort of Suddenly it wasn't just man and woman. There was some alternative. So when I did sort of get my head around, um, that sort of stuff a little bit, I began to wonder where I fitted. And you would think one would naturally assume that you were a homosexual male, and, um, but [00:10:30] because otherwise had the battle. I guess with, um But I'm a woman or I'm a girl. I'm a female, You know, I'm always, you know, that If I was, you know, if it wasn't for a quirk of birth, um, and stuff like that, I would be, you know, And so the psychological with the physical reality, I suppose, and then more deeply, [00:11:00] was I attracted to men who were like that, and no, I wasn't. You know, I didn't. The perspective I had was was of a of a a more female, you know, sort of visceral reaction to attraction and stuff like that. So I don't get it off with gaming. And that may sound, you know, I don't That's not my preference, if you know what I mean. Um, straight, you know, you know, you know, in [00:11:30] that sense. So that puts you in a conundrum when you're that young. I'm wondering, Well, if I'm not a gay man and I'm not a woman, so what the fuck am I? You know, I don't feel right. Oh, yes. Physically, I'm so OK. I've got to be the man. And on the two occasions where I had a what you could call heterosexual sexual encounter, which was set up by well meaning school friends, um, at a school party, you know, and stuff like that. And, of course, he had produced [00:12:00] the goods because it would be gossiped about, you know, from the other participants, point of view as well. Um, and I hated it, Absolutely hated it. And, um, you know, from that, not the person or what, but but, you know, turn me right up. Oh, no, thanks. You know, I want the snatch. I don't want the snatch. Um, I'm on to snatch, just to put it, [00:12:30] sort of. I think you can print it. Um, when you were young, did you understand why your family was saying Oh, don't dress up. Don't I mean no? No, not at all. No. Um, we're talking sixties seventies here, so the knowledge of this kind of stuff was limited to Danny La Rue. You know, I think the most famous transsexual person in the world at that time had been Christine Jorgensen, who had had [00:13:00] the first sex change in the 19 fifties. So there was that There were others April Ashley and all of that who were famous sort of models and stuff, but, um, you know, really? They people, you know, it was in the general population. So and there was an indoctrination, Remember? You know, we were pretty conservative, Christian moral, you know, that kind of thing. And, you know, good God, it was illegal. Um, you know, I mean, men were put into prison or not Just men. Gay people were put into prison, you know, two years. [00:13:30] Um, you know, something like that. Men who dressed as women weren't allowed to walk the streets like that. Um, you weren't allowed to wear things like, you know, sort of funny laws and things that required you were allowed to wear women's underwear. And you weren't, um, and men weren't allowed to be, you know, like the queens who worked in the shows in Auckland and stuff like that in the sixties and and all that cars, you know, and all of that sort of thing, uh, had to, um, [00:14:00] you know, walk in public spaces as men not dressed up and dragged, you know, to go from club to club or whatever it was, you know, to gig to gig really was what they were doing. And, um, and part of the lure in the drag entertainment scene at the time was that you didn't know that these, uh, beautiful exotic creatures were biological men, you know? And, uh, that's what I what I mentioned [00:14:30] before that in those days What terminology? Like female impersonators and drag queens. And, um, you know, and that was sort of that era. But I was too young. Of course I come in, tell, you know, at the end of that era, um, how did you go at school? I mean, were you bullied? Was it was it a positive experience? Because I took an interest some times at college, anyhow, in drama, [00:15:00] when anyone who did a sissy thing like that, you know, and because I was relatively useless at sports, the sports I was good at was tennis and swimming. But rugby and cricket, I hated them. And, um, I had to play them. So but anyhow, um, I think I learned the gift of the gab to get myself out of it. Yes, yes. There was a certain amount of peer pressure, I suppose, to conform. Um, and that wouldn't be unusual. A lot of people, you know, go through that, you know, at that time, and but I seem to have [00:15:30] a very good rapport with girls, and I was sort of a bit of a magnet if I say so myself. And, um, because I had no particular and probably posed no threat threat if there would have been such a, you know, unwanted advances and all that sort of thing just didn't come from me. Um, but we could have good yarn, you know, that sort of thing. So, guy friends could see me as a very good conduit to get to various, you know, girls. So I sort [00:16:00] of became a bit of a Dolly Levi. Really? Um, matchmaker, um, you know, And that made me cool with the guys because, well, you know, I get them on to that, and they sort of thought that I must have been some rampant stud. You know, the sort of Austin powers of the day. Oh, yeah, baby, Um, with the girls. So it was a quite a good facade, even though I did, um, um, theatre and doing a theatre. Like, um, I belonged to a theatre in Auckland for [00:16:30] a while. Um, when I was at college. And, um, and I guess it was a way of being able to wear costume and makeup and stuff like that and to step into roles and characters that could be, you know, gender indifferent or whatever in pantomimes and things like that, uh, where you might be the girl or whatever, the damsel in distress or whatever. So I'd seize those opportunities. Other than that, it was a way of sort of, um, also getting some positive reinforcement. Uh, if you were, if [00:17:00] you were at the good, you know what you did. And so I took to sort of doing that performing stuff, Um, like a bit of a duck to water, which I guess in later, life proved to be, you know, the beginnings of a very handy transferrable skill. And, boy, have I transferred in school over several careers. If I can put it that way. And, um but yes, this this escapism, I suppose, to be able to be who you, you know, really wanted to be while you had to live in this conformed [00:17:30] straight and moral time and world world society that you mixed in in order to preserve, um a a coping mechanism. I suppose so. You didn't have to deal with, uh uh, the ridicule, which you would get on a which would be the lessons learned. You know, I don't want to have to tolerate that. And, um and that wouldn't have been That wouldn't be unusual. A lot of people sort of would have coped with getting through that time until you got to the point where you pushed back [00:18:00] and started to stand up and say, Who the hell are you? You know, and start to become activist about it, and for me, I guess that came from being shoved into the street scene. Um, self inflicted, of course. Put myself into the, um you know, or ended up in the in the street scene as a way of surviving and then realising, um, that that's where people who are marginalised sometimes ended up living on the fringe of society. [00:18:30] You couldn't fully participate in, uh, regular life IE. So I've left school. Well, lots of 15 16 year olds left so themselves out of school usually walked into jobs. It was a relatively good time for employment and stuff like that. Um, but, uh, when people but you You know, when you turn up as a girl and they can see that you're a boy, Um and there's some issues, you know, arise. And I can remember going to, um And there [00:19:00] I am, you know, working at doing stuff at the club exotic and that, but, uh, that's what I mean, You ended up sort of being put folk funnelled toward that kind of lifestyle. Can you just describe for me? So you're you're going through high school? You're 15 16. Just describe in a bit more detail how you get from that to on the street. I was convinced even then that I wanted to be an actor [00:19:30] and I because I belonged to the theatre and theatre. I was going to high school, which also spawned, um, David Shearer and, um, Phil Goff and me and just say that as an aside, um and I became I got to know some people in Theatre Corporate in Auckland which you say [00:20:00] at the Mercury Theatre in Auckland, you know, these are professional theatres and, um, and theatre corporate by Raymond Hawthorne. People would know that, and, um and I was hanging around with, um those things, and and I had got into my head that that's really what I wanted to do. And I didn't really want to be at school anymore. And I got to the I had, you know, I became old enough to be able to sign myself out of school and much against my Oh, yes, my mother was furious. Um, I, I, um, sneakily I suppose you got cunning. Really? Um, [00:20:30] I arranged a school holiday job for the May school holidays to work at Helens Stones mens in. And, um and that is where I got a job. And while I in those those school holidays and while I was there, I persuaded that that I was going to leave school, the manager or the owner or whatever, um, to, um, see if he could extend the time I could work there. And I ended up getting, you know, three months or something like that, which I felt was enough to be able to in and sign myself out of school and then told Mother [00:21:00] you can imagine, um, there was a huge, um, upheaval about that, But I'd done it and I was able to call her bluff when you know you got the old. Well, if you're gonna live under my roof, you're gonna have to start and blah, blah, blah. She was furious and was quite sure that I'll be going back to school. But I didn't. And one day in, in a domestic argument, um, she sort of said, Well, you know, you can move out of here or something like that And I called her bluff [00:21:30] and did. And when I went around the road and boarded with a school friend and his family and when the parents got to talking, they just let me because my mother would have put it like that. Trouble is, um, I went and boarded with them for about a month or two until this job at O who Helen Stein's mens. We ran out, and by that time I'd be able to score another position at, um, Milne and choice [00:22:00] down at the bottom Queen Street in Auckland. In the meetings as a junior, you know, stuff like that. So I just got further and further away from home. I ended up flatting in Mount Albert with some people who worked there for a while, and um, still hanging around the theatre corporate scene. One of the friends I had from there was moving to Wellington to go to Victoria University, Had a room at the Victoria House hostel. And, um, and [00:22:30] I decided to go to Wellington, too, so that we could go to the drama school. And I just, um, sleep on the floor in his, um, Victoria house. You know, um, university hostel accommodation. I managed to hang out there for a couple of months without being detected as a person who wasn't actually a student at university. You know, Victoria House is a university hostel, and at this stage, you you're still George. Yes. Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. [00:23:00] Oh, yes. No. The, um uh, but not for long, but not for long. So, um oh, lots of things happened there. I actually went on after I went and boarded with Stuart Deviney, who's an actor and his wife at that time. And they had a, um, a house in Mount Street, just down from Victoria University. In fact, it was there when I started working as a night got this part time [00:23:30] job. Um, as a night porter at the Royal Oak Hotel and then met R. And so the the window to, um, uh, the gay world as it was in those days, um, opened up to me at that time, but I was pursuing acting and being with Stewart, of course, was helpful. Um, I did hang around and go and audition and stuff to get into drama school, but of course I was too young. But that didn't stop me from, um, hanging around like a groupie. Um, that drama school scene. So George Wey was teaching Ralph [00:24:00] McAllister. People like that were there, um, and various other actors. And when? And I went out to Avalon when they were having a an audition block, you know, to go because you you know, it was all very new out there, So they were just getting a lot of talent on the books and stuff like that. So, I I managed to sneak in the back door, so to speak, to get, you know, the video thing done and all of that and be down on the record. And that's how I got a bit of a part and close to home. Um [00:24:30] and, um mhm. So, yes, that school to them within 18 months. Oh, and also when I left Auckland And, um then, uh, to go down. And then as I began to see that I would be able to make a transition to being Georgina, Um, after I had been taken to, um, the balcony cars, Um uh, show [00:25:00] cabaret show that was on there and saw these queens who were on stage and stuff like that. And, um and that was pretty It wasn't a a major revelation. And, uh, that it's, you know, quite possible because they weren't just dr these. There was serious looking woman. They looked fantastic. And, um and this was the The gimmick, I suppose of the drag show and [00:25:30] drag act was that these people would be so beautiful and uns spring let me in a bed. But, you know, that was sort of the one of the curiosity factors of it. So you'd have this beautiful person who's performed for you and stuff like that, and then at the end of their act, they might take the wig off, You know, that that whole whole theatrical device and, um but to see them with breasts, you know, real breasts [00:26:00] and stuff like that was sort of Ah, OK, so this can be done. This isn't just some madness going on in my head here. This is possible. And, um, that I, you know, see somebody other than a Danny LA, you know, or some drag artist. Um, these are trans gender people. Not that they were called that in those days. Was it kind of madness going on in your head? I mean, were you still conflicted [00:26:30] in terms of what am I Who am I? No, no, no. I I'm afraid I I It's quite a hard view, really. I'm sort of lucky to take it. Um, it is what it is, and, uh, deal with it. Just just live with it. Um, that I'm going to get grief from, um, greatest, you know, from wider society is, um, a bit of a bitch, But I'll deal with it and, um, and stuff them. [00:27:00] You know, um, I'm not a bad person, you know, all of that sort of There was a fundamental sort of sense of entitlement. I suppose that could come from me that I'm just as much trying to be here as you have and you talk to me like that. So but But that odd thing of you know, you'd be dressed up in the day, You know, the Georgina walking down the street a little un naive and and sort of impact a bit O TT as an appearance and stuff like that, as as we did were inappropriate things at that time. Inappropriate, as in [00:27:30] a common type, you know, very loud. And and, yeah, you know, high high heels, all that sort of thing in the middle of the day, um, wandering down the street so you'd get mothers. You know, when you're standing at the street lights, who would sort of pull their Children that side of them as they looked at this creature standing next to them and, um, showing, you know, from that kind of year, and we just turn around and say, Oh, hi, you know, and and be everything that they feared you were going to be, [00:28:00] if you know what I mean, you know, sort of. Oh, well, you know, get over it. Um, you know, just deal with it and months off, and, um, I'd be strangely horrified, but wonderfully curious. You know, And that would be the dinner conversation that night. Oh, guess what I saw at the lights. Um, so there was that sort of God, you know, just of confronting, I guess those situations. But we could be over the top and, um, and quite antisocial, [00:28:30] be sometimes in our reaction to people just to sort of freak them out for the hell of it. But at that age, like when you're 16. 17, where does that kind of inner strength come from? Where, I mean, where does that? Well, because of the contact with the street scene, where, you know, you see other queens doing the street doing the corner and, you know, you just get, you know, into the culture. And so that whole thing of, uh, someone's going to look at you the wrong way or whatever like that. You, um [00:29:00] you don't tolerate it, you know, you just come back at them and some and and I have to, you know, confess that quite often it came across as a and, um, and a reason to be considered undesirable. And because, you know, you're wearing provocative clothing in the middle of the street. Uh, you know, down there and they know you're touting for business. If you're selling, you know, if you're looking for a client on the corner [00:29:30] or luckily, in my case, I got to work in, you know, strip clubs, you know, and and in clubs down on Vivian Street. And so I was in a venue, as opposed to having only the street and, uh out there to go and, um, earn money from cracking us as we call it. And, um and I guess when you learn and get introduced into that street life and it had it, you know, it can be a, um a quite brutal arena to be [00:30:00] in. And you either shape up or ship out. You know, you either. But on the other hand, there was a a social camaraderie and, um, common bond. I suppose you'd call it between the the street scene people because we all felt that we were out on these margins and which sort of gave us false really an excuse to be [00:30:30] everything they said we were. You know, in that sense, um, but society can take its own blame for that, for, um, you know, if you consider it a sort of We were only committing a crime because, um uh, then you ran into legal issues. Men couldn't be charged with being prostitutes. Prostitution wasn't, um, uh, sort of illegal, but soliciting [00:31:00] et cetera was and, um, but and it was common. And sometimes during her era, the odd court case that occurred that provided this gender conundrum for the judicial system to have to deal with. Um And then, of course, I'm racing ahead now, But in subsequent years, as things have become legalised and that a whole raft of sort of statutory, um, amendments have needed to be made on how to legally treat that, uh, corrections [00:31:30] at the moment is one of the worst offenders of, um, an outrage whereby, you know, preoperative transsexuals, for example, are put into the biological birth. Um, thing you know, in prison, men, men's or women's prisons. Anyhow, I That's another question, and I don't know if I've answered one properly. You have. I remember reading a quote from you saying that you never [00:32:00] wanted to make prostitution a career choice, but it was because society didn't allow you to have any other option in terms of in my experience. That's what happened. That's what happened. And I guess for many of my contemporaries at the time, and my predecessors, of course, um, who had inadvertently, by whatever way, but by means of survival, um, you know, provided a guideline to, um, being able to affirm who you were [00:32:30] and be who you are, Carmen. And people like her and others who provided venues and who provided jobs, no matter how they might be or whatever. But a certain form of protection for us. A camaraderie, a collective, um, where we belonged in our sort of venues that it happened to attract others. You know, who came [00:33:00] for curiosity factors a year, right? And a bit of sort of dodgy sex. Um um, and piqued the interest of the sort of glitterati of the day. You know, the sort of social set you know, who are going to be a bit naughty, you know, um, which is why, like Carmen and And that sort of did provide that now. So, you know, the moral Christian fundamentalists sort of. And conservatives sort [00:33:30] of find that, um, abhorrent, but, um, honey, if there was a register of all of them, that inadvertently. And of course, Carmen got hauled in front of the privileges committee for suggesting just such a thing. You know, Parliament. So it had some serious nature in the social and political view on how people like us, um, fitted in and, uh, [00:34:00] and so it wasn't easy. And, um so for the social and political pioneers, they were probably pioneers without knowing it at the time. They just pushed boundaries that were just considered socially antisocial. And you just pushed back and gradually peeled the layers until we find ourselves where we are today, aren't you? And for the likes of me and many others, Christ, I by no means the, um [00:34:30] you know, I'm an example of a piece of, uh, particular history, but, um, there are many others who have done things. And our inspirations, I guess, at the time were women had been feisty through the sixties. The women's movement. That was quite a good model. And the lesbian element of that that was vital and important. Uh, for that movement, um, feminism for want of a better term, um, in New Zealand social history and, uh, but helped to inspire, [00:35:00] I think other minorities to begin to, um, strive for their rights, human rights and equality in this country and start to, um, get the balance better than what it was. Can you recall as a teenager when you first came to Wellington and saw that there were, uh, people, you know, with breasts, where you know where, um, transsexualism was an option. What did you think? [00:35:30] I felt these people had an incredible, um, pride in many respects that despite disapproval, um, they were tall and proud, and they walked it, honey, and they were going to be who they are. And, um and they were They sort of seemed happy in their own way. Yes, it was brutal. Street life is, um, and there'd be fights over clients and drugs [00:36:00] and alcohol, and all of that kind of thing was just part and parcel of it. Um, and it was fun times the seventies, you know? And it was a good nightlife, a vibrancy in Wellington at that time in that particular geographic location of Vivian Cuba Street. And, um, and all of that. And Street still has that bohemian sort of alternative eclectic feel about it. And, [00:36:30] um, and of its era the, you know, the clubs that were down that street and, you know, and all that was, um, just part and parcel A bit of the colour, Really. It was quite colourful, relatively passive, I think from the we had, uh, you know, occasionally we'd we'd get, um, plucked by the cops just to, you know, cut it off down the police station and probably front up, you know, and get caught. And queens used to get charged [00:37:00] with, um and I did, uh, get charged with frequenting with Felonious intent deemed as a rogue and a bond. Um, I can assure you that law does not exist anymore. That is no longer an offence. And, um, I quoted it once in parliament during the prostitution reform debate, but that's what I got arrested for. But it was a revenue gathering exercise just every now and again because, um, and you'd have [00:37:30] to go up in front of the district court on a Monday morning or whatever like that, and you get fined 50 bucks, you know, with its cheap tax. Um, you know, really? You know. But, you know, they might have plucked you on a Friday night and so they'd leave you in the cells over the weekend with nothing, you know. But you know, the basics that you were given and for some, um, queens, sometimes to turn [00:38:00] up in front of the district court and the attire you head on from the previous Friday night. So you got no makeup on your beard, sprouted through. You look like crap. And now you got to suffer the ignominy of standing in front of a court and being addressed and so on and so forth and all of that sort of thing and called by your butch name. And even if you change your name by deed, polar bastards always felt that they otherwise now and as da da, da, da, da And, [00:38:30] um, that kind of humiliation as well. So, um, and get the fine, and then you'd be discharged. And, uh and that was that. So that was over a weekend. I know of other queens who had, you know, there were some cops at the time. Um, that would target them every now and again. And, um, but on a semi regular basis and give them a real hard time, just short of, uh, physical going over, you know, nasty, cruel stuff. And, um, and then let you [00:39:00] go. You just have to deal with them. You know, that was, uh, not saying it was right. But at that time, you know, you didn't have, you know who are you gonna go and complain to? There were no Human Rights Commission, and they sure as hell in it. It was like, where I went to live in Sydney for a year in, uh, 1979. And I got pack raped while I was over there. Um, not long after, I'd I'd I'd been there and with terrible experience, [00:39:30] but I didn't even think didn't even cross my mind that I should go and lay a complaint about it or anything like that, because I wouldn't get protection from the law or by the law. And who the hell was going to believe me? A slapper Maori drag queen from New Zealand squealing rape. Yeah, right. And that sort of, you know, was sort of some of the reality you just faced [00:40:00] at the time. Um, it took me quite a while to mentally get over that physically. You got over it and, um and then got over. And and that was that. And luckily, luckily, I didn't let it get me down. I mean, I wanted to, you know, suicidal. I thought, Oh, Christ, what is this life all about? And this is what's going to happen to me, and it's not worth it. It was, like, just pushed over the edge at that time. But luckily, I fell on the side of getting angry about it. Who [00:40:30] the hell? Nobody should have to deal with. That kind of, um, you know, abuse. Um, just in general. But the terrifying factor for me is I was preoperative. And while I was very attractive and uns spring looking queen or whatever, Um, there was a moment there where I was utterly terrified that when they discovered thought I had a cock, that they might kill me, [00:41:00] and they were just a little short of doing that still brutalised in there, but yeah, you know, So there was that whole sort of terror, and that was enough. I think you know, it was defining. It was sort of, you know, and I got angry about it. Thank God. Saying nobody's got a right. No matter what And, um, you know, to attack people like that and and all of that sort of thing got very angry and weren't allowed to to happen again and got over it. But, uh, what am I saying? [00:41:30] I put the fire in my belly to stand up against injustice like that, and because when I rationally thought about it, nothing was there to protect me. I couldn't go and complain anywhere and have some rest restorative or something happen here. Um and and that's just the way I felt that there was no lever for me in society have felt to, you know, for me and that experience, And so if that's me, how many others are having [00:42:00] to deal with that kind of conundrum? You know, at some at some point, probably heaps. So it began to sort of anchor. I got every bloody right to be here. And I've got every right to be able to be like everyone else. As far as existing is concerning. Why the hell do I have to put up with this? And I didn't want to live in the gutter. I didn't want to live down on the street. All the time I you know, I had ambition, I suppose, to get out of that scene. [00:42:30] It sort of secure, as it provided me with a with an experience of life. Way too young, I suppose, for a good five or six years or whatever that I was there before I began to be and getting out of it, getting out of being caught up in in that world which imbued me with certain, um, strengths and intuitions and street wise and street smarts. [00:43:00] Um, a way of operating, um, you know, and that sort of thing. But then to get out of that and into legitimacy was not easy. But I found it in a way, strange the way through, um, entertainment drag show, you know, or cabaret entertainment. You know, more things. And, um, I went to Auckland and I'm 84 and joined, [00:43:30] um, a drag show called Bloomers, which was working at Alfie's nightclub in Auckland. Well, we sort of started off the show at a and that had a long running residency there. And that was Auckland in the mid 19 eighties, which was sort of boom times ever champagne popping until 87. Of course, kept popping for us still after that. Because, you know, we've established ourselves very well in this, um, much beloved, um uh, Auckland [00:44:00] gay nightclub. And the gay scene up there is is one thing in bloom in the bloomer show. And while I was, um, in that show, um, in 1985 I got, um, approached. Oh, no, I'd I'd been arrogant enough or vain enough to think that I could get an agent while I was an Auckland acting agent. And I had put my name around a few agents at the day and one of them being Robert [00:44:30] Bruce, who was who had a well known agency called the Ugly agency. And, um and so my CV or my portfolio or whatever that I had accumulated at the time, um, I put forward anyhow. Long story short. It just so happened that a chap called Peter Wells and his partner, Stuart Mayne, were casting for a short film that they were going to make. Um and [00:45:00] it was about a transsexual and a transvestite, and the piece was called Juel da, which was a short story that had been adapted by a woman called Ann Kennedy who'd written it and won a listener short story award. She and Peter, I think we're going to make it into a screenplay. I did the audition, uh, for the part and got it. And, um, I yeah, so I did. [00:45:30] And, um, that turned out to be a Oh, a critically acclaimed short film. I'll put it like that. It got about five, nominations for the film and television awards and the ill fated go in 1987. But other than that debacle, um, the acknowledgement of that it was a good film. And actually, it was part of a half hour, um, series of dramas, um, that [00:46:00] Hibiscus films made for television that had been commissioned. Um, and they have about six or seven half hour, um, dramas for new filmmakers, writers, a new vehicle, I guess, for the talent of the day on the Sunday Night Theatre slot slot on television. And, um So I had some cutting edge stuff. I ended up, um, getting nominated as a finalist for best actress in 1987 [00:46:30] for the role of Joel. My co-star was a guy called Richard Hanna. And, um Yeah, so that was quite sort of Oh, right at that time, of course. 84 85 around the time homosexual law reform was happening. And my bosses at, um, Alfie's nightclub, uh, Brett Shepperd in particular, Um, Tony Kado, Uh, his partner, John. Uh, they [00:47:00] had, um, magazine, which was the major gay publication National Gay publication at the time. And it was very active in the, um, homosexual law reform debate at the time. And, uh, but we're in there, and we were working down at the club and and, of course, doing Joel's. And just at that time, the Salvation Army, of course, was vehemently opposed to homosexual law reform. They were vicious and venal [00:47:30] in their, um, attack at the time and, uh, were really our enemies in many respects. And, uh, they were the destiny church of their day. If I can put it like that. And, um, every Sunday in Auckland, they did a, um, a prayer march down Queen Street and would, um, um, have a prayer meeting on the corner of Queen Street and Victoria Street, just around [00:48:00] the corner of Victoria Street. And on this particular day, we were shooting, um, scenes for the Jules Dale film, which required being at Mid City Mall, which is in the middle of Queen Street. And, um, we did that and we were getting into the evening. And, um, Peter either remembered or somebody reminded him and that the Salvation Army were going to do this march down Queen Street and then hold the prayer meeting down there. And this is the joy of working with sort of, you know, filmmakers [00:48:30] or suddenly sees an opportunity whether it's scheduled or not. And, um, they suddenly have we we meet and then got me and Richard who were all in costume and stuff and done our work. We were about to rap, really, and sort of said, Hey, look, this is going to be happening and we just thought we improvise. We're gonna go and set up camera down on the down there and you and Richard just and there is Richard and I hiding in the doorway of McDonald's, um, on Queen Street [00:49:00] and da da da da da And down come, you know, and the tambourines and the uniforms and the hats and all of the stuff and the brass band, and it's all going down Queen Street and, you know, a bit of a parade going on. And then they get down just to about where we were. And then me and Richard just ran out in front of them, right, and started marching down down Queen Street and then wheeled around into Victoria Street. And, um, hoped [00:49:30] that Peter and them got something on film. And, um So after the Salvation Army grouping had set themselves up on the corner to now hold their prayer meeting and they all got lined up and and stuff like that, um, we've gone back over the road to sort of see, you know Oh, God, that was, you know, fun. And, you know, did you get it all? And, you know, did you get what you needed? And can you make something out of it? Because he had no idea if it was going to be useful footage. [00:50:00] And then he said, Oh, look, just before we go, do you think you and Rick Richard could just go over and walk over and stand beside them? Because now they're stationary at the prayer meeting and, um, we went Oh, OK. Yep. And off we went and stood there, you know, mocking it, really in a sort of silent film kind of way. And, um, the sergeant or whatever it was, I think he got furious, and him and Peter started to have words, and he was going to report to the police and the whole thing, and we would have this piece of footage, [00:50:30] you know, they're not allowed to put it on TV and stuff like that. And, uh, anyhow, needless to say, it is a piece of fond footage that I look at on Jules Dale, if I see it of just our little protest at the time, we were able to sort of do something that recorded that actual and historic time. Not only that, I think for Jules Dale and there was one other film that they did in that series called my first Suit, which was a story about a young 14 year old [00:51:00] boy discovering his homosexuality and stuff like that. Um, and you would have thought that the moral content of that would have been repugnant to the censor of the day, but no, the censor of the day decided that Jules Dale was contrary to the public's good taste and could not be aired. And, um, there was a about that at the time, which delayed the screening of the entire about face series, Um, on TV for a wee while until Julian Mounter, who I think came to the helm of television [00:51:30] at the time, sort of told him to get stuffed. And, um, you know, we're not going to waste the money just on this silly little piccalo that they picked up and put the series on and played in the film in Jules Dale amongst the others. Um, and I lost out in the actress award to Jenny Wardley and, um, happily so she was well deserving her. And I were hot contenders that year for taking out the best actress award. And there were three others, of course. And [00:52:00] I think one other actress who was also a finalist and she spat at me, I spat out at me verbally, I might add, um, that, uh, if I had won sort of half tongue in cheek, that if I had that, if I won the award, she'd be complaining because I've been, um, nominated in the wrong sex and, um, but it didn't come to pass so otherwise I would have pressed anyhow. So So there was some major social [00:52:30] change happening in New Zealand in the 19 eighties. And I'm wondering, did the, um, you know, you've got homosexual law reform in 85 86? Did that have any impact on you? No, not particularly, except to say that it began to pull in the strands of, um, collective strength as a significant minority in this country that in order to advance our, um, [00:53:00] our our human rights requirements and, um, begin to socially engineer, I guess and and the more positive for those of us that were on the marginalised communities and I just don't mean transgender. But the gay, the gay political agenda that was about to emerge, was emerging at the time. And don't forget, it had also coincided our law reform. It also coincided with the advent of [00:53:30] HIV and a ID. And luckily in New Zealand, it provided a vehicle via Warren Limberg and various other people who said I established the AIDS Foundation and there's a whole lot of other names I should not start trying to get into the list. Um, of honour. Uh, that those people, um, did for us at the time, but managed to it provided a vehicle whereby us? Because there was this erroneous, [00:54:00] um, a belief at the time that HIV and AIDS was primarily a gay disease. Gay related. Which was totally wrong, of course. But that was the sort of, uh, hysterical reaction of general society, uh, to it at the time. And, um, the movers and shakers in the gay world. I think at that time who were able to and the professionals who were able to frame [00:54:30] the debate over HIV and a I and how best this country would handle, Um, our approach to it, uh, worked very simpatico and well with mainstream society. And I think that scored some brownie points in some respects of sort of Oh, OK, dealing with that. Well, coinciding with homosexual law reform and, um, and then in our arts and cultural sector IE, Jules Dale is one thing. Um, now [00:55:00] not just being on the fringes and funny little fringe film festivals or down the sort of, you know, theatre and Roxy or something. Whatever, um, to go and see that kind of art, you know, film and creative arts to suddenly see it bend into our into our living rooms. Um, not just the Jules Dale subject matter, but the my first suit subject matter and stuff like that, which was far more real as far as drama than the caricatures [00:55:30] you might have seen on. You know, um, Danny la I go back to Danny LA but that he was one of the most, um, sort of visible TV personas, um, of the era. And, uh, and that's how you know a lot of Joe Blow. Mum and Dad, New Zealanders, you know, might have seen it. Um, And we more than that. Um, yeah. So an interesting time. You know, I guess I'm sure there was other stuff that was coming out at the time, [00:56:00] too, but from my own personal, you know, contact and experience. Yeah, they were quite, uh for me, I think after Joel style, Um, I think that I then went to do things and, um, like shark in the park and other television productions where I did guest appearances and all during this period, I you know, my bread and butter money was on the, um you know, on the uh, show in Auckland at Alfie's nightclub. You know, which was the weekend, and [00:56:30] and that was sort of to enter into lip sync contests that were popular on the day running around there, you know, in the various shopping malls out in the suburbs Pick up 1000 bucks just like that. They didn't realise that late at night. I was doing it as my job anyhow, you know, lip synching on a drag show. Um, you know, selling films. I'll chuck on a dolly part, and we can go and pretend to be that. And they all love it out at clear Paris, you know, Mount Wellington, and I'll tell you the other thing. You know, um, we did at the time. Because And [00:57:00] this is our way of sort of getting back at the state and bureaucracy and the system, um, to get a benefit to usually we will put on sickness, benefits, and all you got was your doctor to fill out your, um, certificate. So what's wrong with me? You know, um and everything like that. Well, they dreamed up that we had psychosexual disorders, and this gets us on to the sickness, benefit and so, yes, we'll go on the sickness benefit. And, um, that was reasonably generous in those days, about [00:57:30] 250 bucks or something like that. And by the time he added that to under the table money we're getting on the weekend out, you know, um, doing the drag show not 350 there. And then the other bit, you know, you might have sort of, you know, um, picked up around the pulling about 800 bucks a week. Not too bad. Right through the 1987 crash, while everyone else was dying. We were living still quite high off the hog. Really? You know, at that time and I say that and I know it sounds disrespectful, but that's survival stuff. OK, you silly [00:58:00] bastards. You reckon we've got a psychosexual disorder and you want to give us money for it? I'll take it now, You know, I would think differently now, but in those days, that was about man, you you got to get what you can. And if that's you know, that was sort of a little bite back. He used to get a society. Well, if you want to treat me like that and you silly bastards. Um and, um yeah, that's how we sort of got on. Could you see a difference in the way that mainstream society reacted to you from, say, [00:58:30] the, um, seventies through to the eighties was there. I mean, you actually no, no, no, no. I've always said Law is relatively easy to change. Attitude takes generations, and we're nowhere near it. Yet as far as attitude is concerned, it's improving, and it's getting there. But, um, it won't. It won't entirely have have have worked for us in my lifetime, I'm sure. But yeah, we've substantially gone a long way there, and I'm just [00:59:00] a wee piece of the puzzle. And, you know, um, end of the the continuum, um, that we've had to sort of, you know, get there. So attitude is the next thing. And, um, the era of collective um, solidarity has diminished somewhat in the last few years, in my view, amongst the the LGBTI community and there be just saying LGBTI [00:59:30] community, we're already quite sort of section siloed off on those things. There has been a purpose where we come to together and put aside our particular differences with each other for the greater good. And, um and we move forward, and I think we're at a period now that I think probably after this marriage, equality and adoption has been sorted that legally there's very little else until we start to get down to the minutia. So transgender want some [01:00:00] greater access to services, et cetera, than are currently being provided and all of that sort of thing, and there will be those kinds of things to do. But as far as major law, the framework by which, um, you know, it's not that it's or anything. We're just actually wanting the same, you know? Um, but no. Nothing special. Um, you know, But we got to go through this. The lawyers are creaming it, Um, you know, um, so, yes. Uh, that is where [01:00:30] I sort of see that kind of, um, change in the future. But the the eighties to the to the nineties, I've noticed, sort of, you know, Yeah, eighties, nineties and beyond, You know, after that was in quite a bit. And especially after So we have homosexual law reform 86. We have the amendments to the Human Rights Act. in the early 19 nineties under a national government. And, uh, then we come to the early two thousands and we [01:01:00] get, um, de facto property relationship act We get, um, the Civil Union Act and the Statutory References Amendment Act and, um, and various other things like that, that sort of. And now we're heading in this latest, um, attempt to go, uh, to get marriage. So it's moved quite quite well, but the best reflection is in the social services provided, um, [01:01:30] you know, anyhow, and I, you know, amongst other things anyhow, that's probably going a bit too far ahead. We'll get to that later. In your questions. When was the transition between George and Georgina? 00, 1976. And by that time I was living on Buller Street and, um Wellington with rail McKenzie [01:02:00] and Malcolm Vaughan and various others. That's that's where it happened. And that just meant one day, um, when I had the wardrobe and, you know, when I had the wherewithal to live 24 7 just to be who I am, you know, and destroyed everything that I had on me at the time. Um, that was, uh, male or a reminder and [01:02:30] a sort of symbolic sort of purging. Fucking put it like that. What was your relationship with your family? Estranged. Still, that's the shortest way to describe it. Estranged? My mother died in 1978. It was quite tragic, really. She was 43 and she died of cervical cancer. And she had been involved in the unfortunate experiment up in Auckland And that at the time, [01:03:00] um, Sandra Co. And co wrote about later, um and, um And so she was the only, um, senior family member that I had any kind of respect for and would listen to and whose disapproval or approval or, um, affirmation was important to me. And so once that was out of the picture, I had no sort of moral compass, as far as that was concerned about some kind of responsibility [01:03:30] to the family or whatever like that, because the only ultra important person to me at that time, um, was now no longer, and that was it. So in a way, I said yes. But in a way, another way, it was freedom for me. I didn't care about what my stepfather thought, and I never knew my birth father never met him until my mid twenties. So I had no emotional connection to him, um, or that side of the family, necessarily. And, um, my mother's some of my mother's siblings, my aunts and uncles. [01:04:00] Yes, I kept in touch with your cousin and that, but I never felt a huge umbilical cord toward them because I think and, you know, I had left school early, got out of it and then started living that life so young and became fiercely independent. And, um, because I was avoiding wanting to have that pressure on me had seven myself up. Unfortunately became, um, um, happily convenient to just cut [01:04:30] them out like that. Um saved me a lot of grief until I was in. And actually, the time when I sort of put that to bed was at my mother's funeral in front of the mall. Yep. This is who I am and what I am. Deal with it or not and so on and so forth. And, um, and walked out and went to a nightclub in town. I had a good night out after that, And, um, and I and and horrified [01:05:00] and all of that sort of thing. I said, I'll deal with it. It's your problem, not mine. And I think when I started to treat life and people like that, it's your problem. It's not mine. I'm just going to get on with it. And I'm not gonna wear your your, um, your guilt that you're going to impose on me, you know? Oh, shame. That's your shame, not mine. It's, you know, II. I just, um, divested myself of making that a problem. Some might say you're avoiding it or not wanting to confront it or whatever. Well, [01:05:30] if I do or did, I'll do it in my own time, Thank you very much. I don't need it right now. I've got other things to deal with, much more fun. And I guess that's just an indication of a kind of attitude that I sort of developed that I'm not going to let you stop me, pull me down or change me like that. You know, you come and meet me halfway, and, uh, it's interesting because I had heard that at your mother's funeral that it was your mother's request that that you go and mail [01:06:00] clothing. That's right, it was. Oh, well, just background, that sort of scenario one night. Now, don't forget, I've been out of touch completely. She thought I was dead or something like that, you know? Could have been in jail or whatever for 18 months. And in that time, I'd made my transition and, uh, one night on the way to work. I was full of and, um, a few Valium, um, had a few drinks before I left home On my way to work, I just suddenly stopped at the telephone booths in Vivian [01:06:30] Street and rang her. And in that conversation, um, and I came out to her and stuff like that. But she also informed me that she was not well, and she that she had cancer and that she didn't think she had much longer. So I was horrified and wanted to rush back and go and see her. She preferred I didn't come right then. And, um, but eventually I did go up and see her, and she died three weeks later to cut a long story short. So, um, there was a reconciliation and we made our peace for [01:07:00] want of a better term. If there was any peace to be made. One of her requests was that, um I do come as her son. I looked ridiculous with tits and long hair, and, uh, but I did dress down for wore a man's suit, which was probably quite trendy when you think about it in those days, um, to look like a girl wearing a man's suit. And everyone knew, of course, that was the ridiculousness of it. And, um, but out of respect for her, I wouldn't do it for anyone else. Um, um, I did that. And then as soon as we dealt with her [01:07:30] at the, um, at the at the funeral, um went back to the house to the wake, I got changed. I. I got back before anyone else started arriving and I got changed to Georgina that you know who I was. They all come back, I and out fully, you know, they see it all. I can still remember. One of my aunties just was horrified. How can you do that at your mother's funeral, You know, and all of that kind of thing. And that's when I more or less sort of sort of said, Well, not my problem. It's your [01:08:00] problem. Deal with it. You all know about it Tough. And off I went and Yeah, let's put it down. That is the, um, 10 ft tall and bulletproof. That's, you know, young people at that time, you know, you're not gonna do anything to me, you know? So, in a strange sort of way, it sort of worked for me. Others might have sort of crumbled at the at the thought of it from that point of view. But no, not me for us. You know, thumb my nose at you. You mentioned a bit earlier about, [01:08:30] um, you You touched on briefly about suicide. And I'm wondering, I mean, was suicide a a big thing in your life? Or it was, I think, at that time, two or three times. Um, I'll probably Yeah, it's easy to say in reflection now. Yes. After the, um, Sydney, um, situation the, um the rape over there that sent me into a spin. You know, that was real tough. Uh, really. At that time and you began. [01:09:00] Oh, why am I living this life? And this was this the way we just expect to be treated there? That's No, kind of, you know, all of that kind of stuff. Um, and the other time I have been more out of sulkiness or something like that. You know, it's easy when you're dropping pills. Anyhow, I just drop more and thought, Oh, but that was because we were on, you know, a lot of barbiturates we took on those days Mandrax, seals, tools or hypno the [01:09:30] menu, the cocktail of things that we used to get because it was there to go to. I can call him by name now because he's dead now, Doctor, everyone will know who doctor was in those days in Willow Street. And, um Hm. Um, I'm glad it didn't happen, though. Now, I'm glad. You know, I'm very glad Now, of course, that they weren't successful. But those were the triggers that I guess at that time, young [01:10:00] somewhat unreasonable. And luckily, in recovery from from the added strength rather than, um, a weakness that it was a point, you know, that if you were heading to that point something seriously wrong and, um, you know, make it right. If you can for yourself mhm. And that you can get them [01:10:30] back. You know if you think the world's done you a bad, um, deed, uh, by, um, being resilient. But it doesn't happen like that for everybody. Of course it gets on top of them. And I can understand why there's some very cruel people out there and cruel situations that occur that can you can see how it just, you know, forces. People must have been worse way before, and no one could be out. [01:11:00] So was it things like, um, the pack rape in Australia that prompted you into saying, Actually, I'm not gonna let other people have to go through this, um, thing where I can't report it to the police. Uh, was that something? Well, that kind of activism manifested later. Yes. At the time, it was more, um, [01:11:30] more self interested. I'm not gonna ever let that happen to me again. And I want to be able to, you know, rectify it. A lot of those sort of things and so-called achievements and stuff afterwards have been done. Not as a there. Been more. Yeah, there's been more of a, uh you know, what if it doesn't? If I don't let it happen to me again. Well, whoever else benefits [01:12:00] is fine, you know, But I wasn't doing it purposefully for that kind of cause, you know? No, there was no cause to lib for me. You know, as far as that was concerned, it was about sort of, you know, it's not fair. You know, I deal with it. Um, if I can or just at least confront it, you see, Wasn't afraid to sort of sort of bite back and strangely enough, for some of the authority that I might have, um, crossed swords with with at times. Um, [01:12:30] I was eloquent and intelligent and argumentative from, um a, uh, a professional perspective. As opposed to thumb. Dumb queen. You know, I understood what I was, you know, wanting and And, you know, the acceptance I was. Well, I just didn't accept things. I didn't accept it when social welfare told me that I couldn't get an unemployment benefit because I could go [01:13:00] and put, you know, go and be the man I'm supposed to be and get a job. And, um, they actually wrote that to you. I was told that you were just told that in those days when you fronted up well, they don't call it once it was, you know, social welfare and all of that. And, you know, as to whether or not you are eligible for, uh, getting a benefit. And I said, no, this is I'll be going to work like this. So no, I'm not going to change. You know, this is who I am [01:13:30] and what I am and and And why the Who the hell are you to tell me that I should go and be the man you reckon I'm supposed to be? No. They didn't know how to deal with that except to say that. Well, you've got a psychosexual disorder, so go get a sickness benefit. Oh, OK, then, if that's what you think I've got, that's fine. Devil for a moment believed that none [01:14:00] of us did, you know. But, um, that's the way society the bureau bureaucracy was going to deal with. You put you there crazy. So yeah, I guess inadvertently without knowing that I was just sort of, you know, pushing back and play them at their own game. So when did it change? And why did it change that? You became more kind of outward [01:14:30] looking and saying? Well, actually, I can change this for other people, too. Yeah. No, no, I'm sorry to say, but that revelation quite like they just never It didn't come even when it came into politics. That kind of stuff happened once I was in Parliament. Um, and then the realisation of the, um, level of influence I was now working on or, you know, moving on. Um, [01:15:00] my whole local government experience, I'm jumping a bit ahead now from beyond the eighties. But my whole local government experience was nothing about at all. None of my political, um, achievements of being elected, et cetera have relied on the fact that I had some kind of alternative agenda regarding being a tranny or being part of the gay community or anything like that. I was fell through some happy stance, uh, circumstances, [01:15:30] I suppose, into those roles. And, um, the fact that I was already an out, mildly well known transgender entertainer slash actress, um, and so on and so forth at one level. And then, um, moved into, um, a political or local government to start off with, um arena, which obviously attracted some [01:16:00] attention because, uh, so I was always an out. I'd always been an out transgender person is no sort of escaping and didn't want to, you know, was irrelevant. Frankly, you know, um, and the reason I got into, uh, politics is because others in the community of carterton that I lived with lived in at the time pushed me toward it for completely unrelated reasons to being part of the gay community. Utterly unrelated. So [01:16:30] for you, when, um, you are campaigning to become mayor of in 95. And there are things like III. I know there was like, um, kind of smear campaign saying, Oh, did you really have an operation and all that kind of stuff? How did when? That's not what you're standing for. How did that kind of make you feel? Oh, well, it won me the election. To put it short, [01:17:00] I first got I first, the first election I ever ran and was in 1992 at the 1992 local government elections. As an urban ward councillor for the Carterton District Council. I had been working, um, part time as a tutor at a life skills course at the Community centre, a course that I had been a, um, training opportunities programme participant in prior to getting, um, a bit of a position there. [01:17:30] The 1991 budget happened. Euthanasia, um, occurred and in it it slashed benefits by about 25%. And down the track from that it had it had a, um a ripple effect. Um, throughout rural New Zealand in particular, where a lot of low income jobs, you know, it was the nineties. You know, it was, um, would come out of the eighties, the eighties, the economic financial horrors of that time perpetuated by the Ruth [01:18:00] Richardson, finance Minister in that national government. And, um so we had some issues in Carter that we as a community organisation were getting involved with them. One of them was, um, uh, the odd case of homelessness and people sleeping down at the local um, Children's play park and the sort of fort and thing that were down there and people were worried about it. And [01:18:30] we, as a community centre, wanted to organise um, some temporary accommodation for these people while we got them sorted with benefits, et cetera, benefits and access to them and advocacy for them and stuff like that. We went to the local district council and asked them if we could use one of their powered caravan sites at the council owned Caravan Park because someone had donated a caravan to us and we thought we could pop someone in there for a night or two while we got them sorted, et cetera. The [01:19:00] council refused to give us a powered caravan site and this we paid for it and we were wanting it for free. We were just a very, you know, poor community organisation. And we made a submission to the council and those of us in the community centre, Um, committee and stuff like that. They made me the spokesperson to go and present the oral submission to council, [01:19:30] and that's probably the first thing I ever did, you know. So it started from there, and then the 92 elections came. They suggested that we put up a candidate and I ran on a ticket with a retired um, vicar, the Reverend William Woodley Hartley, And he was about 80 something, and, um, and me. So there was, um, plenty of scope for actress Bishop jokes. And, um, we had [01:20:00] fun and made a few points of social interest. And, um, you know, community involvement. And the council should have a social conscience, etcetera, etcetera. And I was not successful in that election. But I was the highest polling, unsuccessful candidate in the 92 elections, and they knew that I was this exotic creature that had come from nowhere. And suddenly he was in town and I stuck out like a sore thumb in a small rural town like but, [01:20:30] um, I had endeared myself to them in some sort of respects, and people got to know me and and, um, I got involved and, um, and felt pretty good. And then there was the resignation of the newly elected council. Um, ironic be It happened to be the Baptist minister, and he got redeployed in his ministry to another city. And so there was a newly created [01:21:00] vacancy on the carterton District Council, the new one, And so they held a by election rather than And it was during that period that a lot of those, um, suggestions by the media that it was because I was a transsexual and questioning my, um, you know, my character and all of that sort of thing began to emerge because it was sort of lovely, salacious stuff for the, um, um, otherwise boring local government, you [01:21:30] know, election stuff to happen. And, um so you had to put up with all of that scrutiny, which was just sort of the beginning of learning, a long, long lesson of how to deal with all of with all of that sort of scrutiny. But I would have to say that it was the media and the associated attention with this fascination with this transgender person running for public office in a rural conservative area in New Zealand. Nobody [01:22:00] would thought that thought that it would happen, that it was a bit of a joke. Carmen had run for the mayoralty in Wellington in 1977 and that had been full of spectacular sort of, you know, um, wonderful colour. But nobody was taking it seriously. It was more in entertainment than anything else. And now, a few years later, there's this thing happening, except it's in rural New Zealand, and this will be fun and all of that sort of thing and how wrong they were. And, um, I won [01:22:30] the by-election because the council could have just appointed me, um, as I was the highest polling, unsuccessful candidate. We're talking about 14 votes here, 14 votes. And, um, that I'd missed out by saved the expense of a you know, by-election there was no choice. They could have left the situation vacant, but it was too soon after the major election. And, uh, that would mean there would be a ward in in the, [01:23:00] um in the district that would be unrepresented for that time, so that wasn't an option. And, um, they chose the by-election and, um, in a strange sort of way, I was able to use that to my advantage because I could sort of do the fire and brimstone about, Oh, the expense unnecessary and so on and so forth and the media are saying, Oh, but no, isn't it because you're a transsexual and they don't want to have it like that? Oh, couldn't possibly be anything like that. And I you know, for all of that that they would sort of say I said, [01:23:30] Oh, no, that's not an issue. It's certainly not an issue for me. It shouldn't be an issue for anyone. And I just went on this, sort of, you know, rose above it kind of attitude while the poor old incumbent mayor was being asked about Ah, is the council doing this Because, um, you know, you don't want to have someone like her and that's on the council. And of course, he would come back with a very diplomatic and political way. Of course not. This is a democracy, and that's why we're going to have the by-election so that the people can make the decision. Well, of course you can't argue with that. Of course, that's sort of right. But we all know [01:24:00] we all know, don't we what the real attitude was and, um and certainly the voters understood that and thought to thumb their nose at the council. And they kicked my fanny into that council and elected me with a very clear majority. Five other people stood against me and a by-election, for God's sake, you know, um, stood against me and, um, and I got half of the votes and the rest of them shared the rest of the votes. [01:24:30] And there I became a counsellor, and, um so yeah, it was. And then, when I got in there. Of course, it was very new, and I knew nothing. I was by no means had been educated towards the ways of politics. I just you know, um, learned it from the ground up, so to speak. And, uh, it was very easy in my first few months to be marginalised by the rest of the council, who were just sort of, [01:25:00] you know, bemused more than anything else. It was OK. It ought to be a one term wonder, you know, and that kind of thing. I seized the opportunity that they sort of threw at me. Um, councils under the Resource Management Act needed to establish. Um um, what do you call it? Consultative procedures with local iwi. And since I was the first Maori to ever serve on the council, [01:25:30] they threw it to the brownie in the corner. And, um and I took it with both hands and went off and went to workshops and things and came back with a draught sort of proposal for a policy for the council to adopt, to start to establish my creed amongst them, I suppose. But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter about them that sit around the table so much, it's the people who put you in there and who you're representing and that that you've got to keep on side [01:26:00] and that you've got to keep open and honest with. And I just sort of always, you know, found favour. Luckily with the constituents and I delivered for them, yes, under promised, over delivered. I started to learn the tactics early on, and then the 95 election came around, and that had been suggested that I have a go for the mayoralty then, which I thought was sort of ridiculous. [01:26:30] But let's have fun and, uh in a way and and gave it a go. The mayoralty being successful in that you became the world's first transsexual, openly transsexual mayor, and that created a whole lot of international media attention. How did you deal with that? It it did Well, first of all, I didn't think for a moment that I would win the mayoralty, and I stood also because you could stand [01:27:00] for Councillor and mayor. So I was already an incumbent councillor. And so I stood for both, you know, because I was pretty sure. But we'll stand for the mayor and have it a go. And I did it upon the suggestion. Excuse me of one of our, um, managers. I thought he shouldn't have been advising me this way, but I'll go on, you know, let's have a go and, um, felt emboldened enough to do it. And because I've been pretty straight up about what I thought of, um, the sort of so called [01:27:30] as I call them most unkindly when I think about it now. But, you know, that's politics. Um, and I would just sort of say things. Oh, God. Half these councillors inherited their seats and, you know, about time, you know, some new fresh leadership. Anyhow, it resonated with people. And yes, and I won the mayoralty at the end of the day. Um, in 95 Yes. Then this attention descended upon me. The media treated the mayoral campaign [01:28:00] again as some kind of entertainment. I don't think anyone was quite sure that I would actually pull it off and that I'd given myself the backstop of being able to be re-elected as a councillor. So, you know, people were sort of wondering about that. But as it turned out, it was very It was a definite win. I didn't just scrape it or anything like that. I had a great majority and bang, I was there and I was the mayor, and I was terrified. Really? Because suddenly oh, my God, it happened. It was the media that informed [01:28:30] me that, um, I was certainly the first transsexual in New Zealand to be elected as a mayor. And then later on, people sort of say, Oh, you might be the first in the world and I said, Well, I wouldn't have a clue. You'd have to go and verify that or whatever like that. I don't know. I'm just, you know, in the mayor and, um, get on with the job. But of course, the media attention was on the trend. You know, this is the first transsexual in the world, and after nobody else [01:29:00] around the world stuck their hand up to say no, I am, and none of them did or no, nobody did. Um, but it's just a given that that is, you know, sort of the fact. And of course, it had nothing to do whatsoever with my getting elected. It was a byproduct, you know, on APR scale that that was. But when it dawned on me that [01:29:30] if this is the case, even if it's just about New Zealand, it's got some significance from, um, you know, from the gay communities or significant minorities that are an underdog. Made it through legitimately. No. Swifties pulled here to get her into office or anything. These were rural redneck conservative New Zealanders elected her. What did they put in the water? You know, um what you know what's caused [01:30:00] this? This is, you know, quite remarkable in this little micro, um, example in the scheme of things and it's sort of fun And gee, don't we feel good that anyone can make it in our country and get there? You know, there was all of this kind of thing. Um, that went on. So it was immense. I decided to, um, accept that I'd become a bit of a figure of [01:30:30] political importance or a sense of Oh, there's a little A little advance has just happened here. And, um so I accepted that it was going to represent parts of the gay community or that movement is one thing, but actually, I'm the mayor of and that's my primary focus. And it has got to be what I may [01:31:00] do and what I may achieve or whatever like that may well be a good reflection for everybody else. That's going to claim a piece of ownership of my reflect glory or whatever you want to call it, um, and success and achievement, and to be used as an example of how it could happen elsewhere. If people were more open minded and overlook and da, da, da, da and all of that kind of significance a largely it would depend on [01:31:30] how effective my example might be by my exemplary behaviour and at the same time not looking like I was, um, you know, totally conforming to, um, you know, societal ways that I'm not afraid to be who I am and and what I am and for everyone to know it, and I go out there and preach it. I just am and you know I am. And who's making up the issue? [01:32:00] The media do, because that's an interesting aspect, and people are curious about it. And also it had a reflection, some possibly in a negative way for the people of because now they've got this, um, civic leader who's becoming very virtually a household name because of my notoriety, my interesting back story and the fact that I am this, um, transsexual. [01:32:30] And now this is going to reflect on the town, too, And on the district. So there was that to take into account. So again, my conduct, I guess at the time, was to try and make a happy balance between to be everything to everybody that they wanted me to be, you know, in some ways, But, uh, but not lose it either. Did you feel that you had to kind of be what, more respectable, Or or [01:33:00] I already was respectable and more respectable than the colleagues to show. OK, if I was going to, you know, um, because now you've got a public platform. So the media are asking you about all sorts of other things. Um, local government related, my district related, you know, and all of that kind of thing. My response to things I mean, just looking at me as a civic leader to begin with was, you know, how is she going to do this? Some kind of attitude [01:33:30] that people like me just haven't got the Kaunas to be able to do a job like that. Mm. You know. So what are you telling me? I'm so sub intelligent because I happen to be what I am, that I can't do this, you know? And But of course I can. And of course, those kinds of invisible barriers that we sometimes face because people just make us some kind of erroneous assumption about us. And you know, how I'm educated or uneducated or intelligent or able [01:34:00] or or sensible or whatever, you know, to be able to deal with a position of, yes, ceremonial responsibility. But they actually did some hard graft work. And there's a whole lot of diplomacy. There's a whole lot of politic. There's a whole lot of stuff that suddenly you got to crash and learn as well as being the public face and the media go to person, um, and so on and so forth. So a whole lot of skills had to come together, Which is why I said before that, having had some experience in theatre and a little bit of dabbling in television [01:34:30] and a little bit of entertainment, my street smarts from my street time years. Suddenly, elements of all of that came into play to being able to use, um, of navigating my way through in the early days anyhow of my, um and, um, and just learning how to deal with that, let alone the run of the mill stuff that the council does and and how to manage people. And, um, and deal with the high brows and the low brows and still not [01:35:00] lose a sense of self And who I am and what I am with the demands that others had on me and my time and my image and my and everything that I you know, that I represented, If that's the way people wanted it, a huge demand came on because suddenly, you know, you're on a bit of a platform and a pedestal. You're a voice box, and, um mm. So so then how did you feel about, um I mean, I've seen a number of newspaper articles from the time where you know, the first sentence kind of is always, you know, [01:35:30] um, prostitute, um drug user da da da da. So your pastor is always following you before they actually get to the story of what the story is. How did you feel about that? The past? Well, you know, at the time, you know, you just sort of dealt with it, and you just took it that that's how it was always going to be. Now you know, there's enough of that record, um, around for people to reflect back on it now and sort of go. How useless are those journalists? How [01:36:00] shallow is that media at the time that they always had to start like that? Um, it was just essentially a sensational headline grabbing thing to get the reader's attention, I suppose. And on occasions you would get feedback from the reader. That would sort of say, Why do you have to keep on referring to Georgina Bar as a transsexual? We don't refer to the prime minister as a heterosexual, which could have a double on to to it, of course. Um [01:36:30] and um, which was Bulger in the time. And, um and, um, and so people would could see New Zealanders could look through that kind of stuff. But I think that's more of a reflection of the journalistic devices that they used of the day, Um that it was about me and that they have to keep throwing that up there. I mean, at the end of the day, everyone knows this. So why do you have to keep repeating it? So it's for very spurious [01:37:00] reasons, really, That they want to raise that again. I can remember when I was in Parliament at at one time when people wrote me off at the 2002 election, we might come to that later. But, um wrote me off, and then I changed my mind, and I was going to leave after my first term. And then I changed my mind and I went back. And of course I remember the people in the press gallery telling me you just committed political suicide. You don't do that. Um, you know? So you're gonna leave and announce it [01:37:30] and everything like that, and then change your mind that you're going to stay. And, um, they said, Oh, you know, you you you you just committed political suicide. 2002 election happens. My majority doubled. Now, do you think they would want to scrutinise how that happened or why that happened Do you think they'd want to give me credit for actually having some ability? And not only that for actually being straight up? Um, [01:38:00] you know, and because they were trying to look for some Well, what the hell happened here? You know, some incredible thing that occurred, but it was very simple, really. At the end of the day, I I changed my mind, and I told them so and that I would change my mind and OK, if they thought that I was too silly to, you know, put back there, then I wouldn't be put back there, but they definitely put me back there. I'm talking about the electors, you know, did so Media explained to me your whole attitude that I had just committed political suicide and that I'm [01:38:30] naive and stupid. And I always was going to be a one term wonder. You ask me since I first elected to public office in 1993. How come I last until 2007? You know, did that happen? Because, you know, people were just, you know, I was more than a one term wonder. I never lost an election except for the first one I ever ran in. And, um, that was in 1992 and I missed out by 14 votes, which turned out to be an advantage [01:39:00] in a strange sort of way. In the end, I mean, but that never got looked at. You're right. Prostitute, transsexual, drag queen, blah, blah, blah. All of that has to sort of get up there. What prompted you to then stand as a member of parliament? Well, I was very happy in my role in local government. [01:39:30] I succeeded in getting a second term as mayor in 1998 with a 90% majority. I represented zone four on local government New Zealand, which is the Wellington metropolitan. Uh, you know, region, um, of local government, New Zealand. I was very happy and content in my role as a mayor. I was approached by the New Zealand Labour Party in the form of Sonia [01:40:00] Davies and who lived in Masterton. And she came to see me under the pretence of talking about the, um, master in hospital at the time which was under threat of closure and, um, and services being diminished and so on and so forth. But at the end of the day after that meeting, she had me signed up as a member of the Labour Party in order to get her out of my office. Um, at the time. And, um And then she came [01:40:30] back and suggested that, uh what I consider running as a candidate for labour in the wrapper. I said no. I turned labour down three times in quite quick succession. Um, I even went to a meeting in mhm 1998 no 1999 with Helen Clark a day before the hero parade in Auckland. And, um, and she was a leader of the opposition at the time [01:41:00] and had the meeting, um, with her and she was sort of quite keen. But she made one statement to me which made me go no again because she said during the course of the dinner that we had, um, she said, 00, now we're looking for star performers and I yes, you just want someone who's a bit of a name and some far flung rural seat and all of that sort of thing. It's not really me and my fabulous abilities that you want. It's just my notoriety pull a few votes. You hope M MP election, et cetera. And and this great [01:41:30] emphasis put on you just go for the party vote the party, vote. Don't worry about your personal vote just for the party vote, Party vote. And I think that was the Anyhow, I said I said no. But, um, Sonia kept being dispatched to persuade me, um, to confirm running as a candidate. So I did. And, um, you know, accept to be put up for selection as a candidate for the seat for the Labour Party. I didn't realise that there were two others [01:42:00] on the night of the selection meeting. Oh, I knew that there were two others. But on the night of the selection meeting, I turned up the Frank Cody Lounge in Masterton and expected to have a bit of a you know, you know, do a debate because this is a selection meeting. And there's two other people there, and I got there and the two other people made a public announcement and withdrew their candidacy for selection. And so it was me and I just had a because I'm the last one standing [01:42:30] and yes, and I'm announced as the Labour candidate for the wire rapper seat at the, um, 1999 general election. Well, that hit the headlines, of course. And so now it was on. I was, you know, um um, that was it. I had never belonged to a political party before. Um, I had no idea of the culture of the, uh, New Zealand Labour Party or anything like that. Uh, they put scant resources into our election over there because I think they had a view that it was probably [01:43:00] unlikely that I would win, But they were wanting to get party vote, and there'd be a little bit of media buzz, you know, around anyhow, the National Party decided to put up a candidate against me, obviously, because it's the National Party stronghold. The rapper and that candidate that they selected at the end of the day is a well known broadcaster called Paul Henry. And, um, he was the national candidate, uh, for them, and, [01:43:30] uh, and, of course, all the other parties had their candidates up, but it was really a two horse race between myself and, uh, Paul Henry, who blew it for them. Frankly. Thank you, Paul. it was well done. A fantastic performance. And, um And he'll never want to enter politics ever again. Certainly not for the national Party. And, um and I won the election, and that was remarkable. I didn't certainly [01:44:00] didn't expect to win the constituency. And but there was, You know, let's be fair here. There was a swing away from the then national from the incumbent national government, and they were going to lose that election anyhow. And a huge swing towards, um, a labour. I had the largest swing in any electorate in the country at that year, a 32% swing to labour. And I took out the seat [01:44:30] with a 3000 majority, a seat that had been held by the right honourable Wyatt Creach, who had was then the deputy prime minister, but who had chosen to stand down from the seat and into his final term in Parliament. Um, as a list MP. And that left the field open as he moved on into that position. And, um and yeah, and I think I was only about I'm only the third [01:45:00] Labour Party person to have ever held the seat of, but in fact, I am the first Labour MP to win the in the current electoral configuration of the seat. Now, in previous days, the electorate had been, um, essentially from Masterton down to the south coast of the north Island And, um, the, uh and then the electorate above that was the shrine to Keith Holyoak, which, [01:45:30] of course, took in Woodville Danny, that sort of, uh, lower Central Hawke's Bay, um, area. But that got subsumed. Uh, John FAO was the last MP to hold that to seat. And that was assumed by the newly redrawn boundaries of the, um which Wyatt had in his time from 1996 after the N MP, um, changes had come about, and, uh, and [01:46:00] then I won it in 99 for Labour. Mhm. Knowing what you knew about how the media reacted to you in the mid nineties, did you ever turn it around and actually use, um, differences as as a way of promoting yourself promoting myself? I never felt I had to, you know, contrary to a lot, a lot of people might think I've never been in the [01:46:30] business of necessarily particularly wanting to promote myself except for at election time. You know those sort of PR things to use my No. I think people would like to think that Oh, yes, she's exploited her uniqueness or whatever like that. I just am what I am. If you want to make me unique in that regard, that's that. That's you, Um, doing that at the end of the day. That's so superficial. Um, you don't exist in the political arena. Um, [01:47:00] you know, for that time without some actual ability, um, and being able to do the job and actually on the ground, let me put it to you this way. Conservative, rural New Zealand, perhaps others. But in this instance, conservative rural New Zealanders will spot a fake at 50 paces, so you can't bullshit them. What more can I say at the end of the day, you know that [01:47:30] that that's what it's got to be, you can Oh, that I came with the added attraction of, you know, big press coverage. Not just newspapers, but television. All the bloody interviewers of the day on TV that have had their time with me or I with them. Um, they would press the issues of, um but you're a transsexual. You've had a sex change. Have you done this? I mean, I did 60 minutes. I've been asked the most ridiculous, personal, intimate questions that if I asked you might be offended at, you know? So [01:48:00] I think you had your sex change. What was the first time you had sex? Like this is Genevieve Westcott. 60 minutes asking me a question like that. All sorts of inquiry and inquisitiveness that no other person in public office really has to tolerate. But I do. Why? What is this strange curiosity you have with what might happen in my bedroom or in my character? You're you. You're testing my character. [01:48:30] Like when I proved again and again by just my work and what I do. And my, you know, my conduct that I'm just like any other person who's our mayor or who's an MP or whatever. I carry out my duties. Hm. You know, I mean, I don't know. What else can I say? What else you know? Can I do some people like to characterise it as a way of, uh, character assassination that I'm just exploiting [01:49:00] my, uh, difference. Wrong. And if it has appeared that I've been able to use that sometimes as a platform to get out a particular message. Or you don't get invited to UN conferences on human rights because I was a in the closet transsexual. No, because I have been able to be out who I am, be able to have the balance of being out [01:49:30] and proud about that and talking about it. But I'm lucky enough to live at a time in a country in a democracy where tolerance at the end of the day more often than not, has prevailed eventually. And, um, yes, there's still some rough edges around it. But occasionally there are more of us from those significant minorities who have become figureheads, symbols, examples, role models, people [01:50:00] to look up to and, um, and that sort of thing. And by God, we need them. They are in every other aspect of life. Why the hell shouldn't we have? You know, people like that to go for? I just happen to be in the happy happens, you know, happens to that for a period of time. At a moment in time, Uh, someone like me was happened, and that's provided a platform, especially in the transgender community to become [01:50:30] emboldened and confident that they can participate more fully in society than otherwise. We have been able to, and that has spilled out around the world. It's not as if I would have been the first out transsexual to have attempted public office. I was just lucky enough to be the first one to achieve it. Many others have done it before me failed, but those are the ones who are the pioneers. Those are the ones who have pushed [01:51:00] the boundary to the point where I happen to be lucky enough. You know, at that moment in time for it to happen and, um to be able to be a positive force as a as a as an event that happened a click forward in our political progress and our social progress. I'm just one of many and, um, and a few of us a few of us are celebrated for it, [01:51:30] you know? So Christine Jorgenson, the first, you know, I mean, if anybody thinks we want to live, these public lives like that are quite mistaken. It's a bit different for someone who's relying on their, um, cleanliness or whatever to be their bread and butter as an entertainer. You know, um, you know where they might you know, that that's that's the gimmick, you know, kind of thing. And this is no gimmick [01:52:00] for me. Never has been. So was there ever a time where you just actually wanted to say, Just get over it, you know, all the time. But, um, you know, um but get over it, Georgina. It just is. So, you know, um, live with it and, you know, don't be arrogant enough to think you're the only one that has to sort of, you know, um, I got called up by the Polish, um, media last year because the third out transsexual in the world [01:52:30] has been elected to a parliament in Poland. And, um, she had cited in her media engagements during her campaign and stuff like that that I had been me and New Zealand had been an inspiration for her to be able to find, you know, the courage and that to press forward with her political ambitions and something like Poland. Um, well, that's pretty good, you know. And there she is now, and she is the only one in the world at the moment who happens to be in Parliament? OK, [01:53:00] you know, distinction. I hope she's doing a good job. I met the, um the second trans section in the world who got elected a lady by the name of Vladimir Laura, who was elected into the Prodi government in Italy a couple of years ago. That it only lasted about nine months is neither here nor there. And she was in the Communist Party, she leader, but her and I met at a, um a human, a gay human rights conference in in the Mexican Parliament, Um, that I went to a few years later. So that was quite a historic meeting of me and her [01:53:30] meeting for the first time. You know, the both of us, You know, that kind of thing. But there are many other transgender people around the world who have managed to get into public office. Maybe not up at that level, you know, But on education boards up in Hawaii, it's happening all over. I could sort of be held responsible for helping a bit of that to burst through. And, uh, just by the sheer fact that New Zealand, uh, you know, let's give New Zealand credit here, Um, rather [01:54:00] than me and the vehicle of me. And let's not forget I'm not the only one in this country that served in, like, local government. Jackie Grant, who served down on a on a AAA council. The greatest council for a couple of years. Um, you know, a couple of terms, you know, she's been successful, too. Um, and in that arena, I just happened to be I just got him before, and so sort of took that one. So [01:54:30] my political achievements and elections and stuff have been one thing. The fact that we've been able to that you know, that I and the wider queer community here and around the world have on occasion been able to use that as a good example of why we should be a more, um, accepting an open and inclusive country. Um, and that's the aspiration of many overseas too. I've done a lot of [01:55:00] speaking overseas at gay international forums. Whether it be United nations doing HIV AIDS work. I've been to been to conferences in and Copenhagen and, uh, all over the place. Um, particularly in, um and yeah, all all over the place where I've been asked to go and give a keynote address. And I never fail to, um, you know, talk a bit about our, [01:55:30] you know, the New Zealand example so far and where I fit it in to that, not the only one. So in that sense, yes, I do use, you know, the platform. That's well, if you're going to build this up around me, then I might as well, you know, now that I'm out of politics proper and all of that sort of thing, if anyone wants to, you know, is that experience How do how do you feel about people claiming parts of you so like, say, like a, um, a community, A specific community saying, [01:56:00] Oh, well, you know, look, strangely enough, I think that there's a you know, even in our LGBTI community, Um, there's elements of cynicism and contempt towards me and many who would despise me and even amongst the queens and sort of the bitches, that who the hell does she think she is? You know, you know kind of attitude, and people always want tall poppy syndrome, I suppose, is what emerges from time to time. um, [01:56:30] I know. I just Sorry. What was the question? You know, just when When when people kind of claim ownership of Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah. Um, well, I've got to choose whether or not I'm going to, um, you know, buy into it or or to allow that to happen. I, I don't mind. Really? If it, um you know, what's happened has happened. Um, it's a good news story, I think, [01:57:00] by and large, uh, some of my life experience will reflect with others who have had similar and, um, and it provides a Yeah, Um, And if it's to be used for good or to broaden minds or whatever like that, then I will. I mean, I've had my battles with conventional society in the past. Certainly in politics, certainly over civil unions and prostitution, reform and [01:57:30] legislation like that, where I sort of just about Oh, yeah. Well, of course she would support something like that. You know, that sort of natural assumption, You know that? I would, but it came with caveats. I must admit when I did it. And also, if that isn't an example to the gay community who do have cynicism about my time and my era and my abilities and all of that sort of thing. Well, excuse me, Who was it who made the conscious decision that in serious votes, [01:58:00] like prostitution reform, like civil unions, like de facto property relationship stuff that I went against what my electorate wanted me to do and what those who voted me And you know whose duty I owed in that sense to to stand up for the moral principle of what I thought was right truly used my conscience without thinking of the PO. Well, yes, I did think, but knowing understanding that there was a political [01:58:30] risk to it. But regardless that I had to do what I felt was right in my heart, even though it might have been against my party when it came to foreshore and seabed or whether it be those other two pieces of legislation. Hm. Did you find being in the spotlight that suddenly a whole lot of people would just contact you and say, this is my story? Did did you find that a lot of people did. And, um, I used to find in my electorate, sometimes [01:59:00] somebody in my electorate office and my electorate. Staff would occasionally get people in, and they had Children or relatives or people that they wanted to talk to me about because they thought that they might be gay or they might be transgender or whatever, and they didn't know anybody else who they felt that they could go and talk to about it. So they access their way to me because my [01:59:30] life and my story and who I am was out there. They sort It was almost like they sort of knew me There'd been the documentaries on television. There's been so there's not a lot that people don't know about me and they either. You know, um went on the highs and lows of all of that sort of stuff, and they sort of felt a connection to me and felt sort of confident enough to come and talk to me about what they found to be a shameful issue for them or something to deal with. They didn't know, so that was sort of interesting that people would sort of see me in that sort of counselling kind of way. [02:00:00] I would always refer people to, um, more appropriate professionals might deal with it, but sometimes just on a face to face one on one. I remember our grandparents bringing their, um, couple of the grandsons to me who were very gay and very, you know, campy. And and they were convinced they wanted to be trannies and, um were threatening to leave home. And the grandparents were looking after them and all of that sort of thing at the time, and they wanted to go to Auckland and get into the K road [02:00:30] scene and all of that and the grandparents had the foresight. Really, I'm supposed to actually bring them to me. Just ask me to talk with them for an hour and then to sort of feed back to the grandparents what I thought and I did. And a couple of years after that, I heard from the grandparents again, but also from one of the, uh, boys. And, um, they thanked me for my advice at the time that saved them from potentially [02:01:00] a, uh a, um, unnecessary deviation in their life. They were convinced they were gonna go and be, you know, queens on K Road. But in fact, they realised, really, they were just gay guys and they were really? They came before they were, and they were 17, 16, 17 years old, you know? And so that was just the prime the same time as I was to sort of, you know, gravitate there when in fact, perhaps that isn't quite what they really were. They were just having a moment, [02:01:30] so to speak, and a kind of gay puberty and adolescence. Until I settled on what they were and very much happier for them. I might have saved them a few years of chucking themselves in a frock and selling their wares on K Road and all of that kind of thing and the drug culture. So that was sort of one. I had a mother with AAA 10, 11 year old so who had naturally gravitated towards being transgender, [02:02:00] was now starting to go to school, dressed up as a girl with all the school mates and see them as a boy and all of that sort of stuff. And the mother was quite happy to to help and support this transition that was happening young to her son. But that came with not only, um, an ostracism for him at school, but an ostracism for her as a mother in the neighbourhood and the neighbours and stuff like that. And, uh, they came to I was still mayor of Carter, and I was the mayor of Carter when they came to see me about that. [02:02:30] Yeah. So, um yeah, provided, uh, you know, a lot of people would write, you know, write emails and letters and things. Can you describe for me what it was like, um, giving your maiden speech in parliament? Well, I [02:03:00] angst over what one writes that are made in speech, I guess as you as all MP S do when they're making their maiden speech. There were certain conventions about what you include in your maiden speech, acknowledgement of the queen and and, you know, so on and so forth in parliament and a few sort of obligatory and that are meant to go in there. And then it's, you know, you go on to it. I tried I. I would get halfway down the page of writing something, I think. Well, what is this rubbish I'm writing? And I normally speak off the cuff [02:03:30] and from the heart and and, you know, if I need information or a few bullet points or something I might do Jonathan Hunt, who became the speaker of that Parliament, um, wanted us all to submit our maiden speeches to him to review before we made them in parliament to make sure that they ticked all the boxes and stuff like that and that. And, um, I never submitted one. And the day of my maiden speech comes up. And not only that, the media [02:04:00] wanted an advanced copy, too, of my maiden speech, so they were all prepared for, Um, you know, as soon as I said it in the house, they could publish it. And, um when they rang me up and asked me for it in advance, I turned around and sort of said, You'll have to wait until Hansard has written it. And of course, they said, But But hands, I can't write it until you've delivered it. And I went, That's right. So I said, You can wait with everybody else because [02:04:30] I don't know what I'm going to say yet, and, um, so Jonathan was very nervous about when it came time for me to do my maiden speech because he didn't know what I was going to say in advance, and it wasn't actually an outrageous speech or anything like that. And, um, I mentioned all the things that we were meant to mention and, um, and then a few clips along the way. And it turned out to be a delightful maiden speech and brought the house down. It was like a mini Georgina [02:05:00] show, Um, for the 8. 5 minutes, or have long I spoke for and I came out with one or two clipping lines, which were, 01 in particular, that was picked up by the media. And it is it will probably end up being my epitaph. It was, but I brought the house down and it was a way of breaking the ice. I think because, you know, I was the first tranny anyhow to be standing in our Parliament. And, um, there's a lot of homophobes sitting around in [02:05:30] there and a lot of uncertain people about about me being there and and I came out with my famous This is the stallion that became a gelding and then a mayor. Now I seem to have found myself to be a member, Mr Speaker and, um everyone could see the humour in that. But the, uh the sort of that briefly, succinctly sort of covered my entire life story and that in that nice, pithy little saying and it got widely reported [02:06:00] and televised and all of that and, um, and sort of endeared people. I think at the end of the day, which was good. So it was off the cuff. Um, Like I said, I mentioned all the appropriate thing. I even managed to make a quip at White Creach. Um, when I was going when I was talking through And so nothing incredibly remarkable except that I did feel at one point that I needed to acknowledge the fact that I was the first transsexual, um, in New Zealand to be elected to [02:06:30] a parliament and, um, and and the world, and that it made it sort of quite a historic moment at that time, I think as a viewer, I remember seeing it on TV, and, um, it was just amazing. It was just so symbolic. And, you know, I think for a lot of people, people often ask me if they see that any footage of it what the hell I was wearing feathers in my hair. Well, so it's on the public record. Those are feathers. I'm of [02:07:00] descent to Taranaki. But Wellington, uh, in particular, where I was born. And so I was wearing the feathers. That's why I'm wearing feathers in my hair at that time. Not because I thought I was I had some really tragic drag Hendry on. Did you ever think to yourself, um, at any time when you started in parliament, you know, [02:07:30] I'm actually finally here, Could I mean, was there ever a moment where you thought I can't believe that I'm actually in this every day. First, The first thing was when I on election night, I was in absolute disbelief that I had won because the results, the way they'd come through. And it was a long, um, results process that night on television, and I thought I was, uh, Paul Henry looked like he was going to win. But I had a surge at the very [02:08:00] end, and, um, and suddenly, you know, So I won. Well, I was in disbelief about that, then, actually turning up at parliament. So you have Election day on a Saturday. You got Sunday to get over it. And then Monday you had all new MP S head to parliament straight away, and, um, I sing around going Oh, have I got train fare? Can I get there? Because I didn't drive at that point, I didn't drive [02:08:30] a vehicle. I didn't get my driving licence until the year 2000. And, um, yes, of course I get to parliament and just disbelief that I was I'm allowed to be here. I'm I'm you know, this is my place of work, You know, Uh, the first week, um, we had to share offices with the, uh, with the other labour colleagues. Parliament hadn't quite changed all the offices and everything [02:09:00] over and put the national party and the opposition officers and vice versa. And the to the government offices. But that came about and, um, are incredible. Yeah, unbelievable. And, of course, a lot of sort of media and preliminary stuff before parliament actually sat and opened, and all of that sort of thing in preparation and just getting, um, you know, getting adjusted to this new work environment. It has to happen [02:09:30] relatively quickly, but there's an awful lot to absorb about how it's all going to work and and how it happens, but yeah, unbelievable. I couldn't believe it. I'm here and I'm allowed to be. They're calling me mom, you know, walking around. You know, all the security people at reception there. Hello. And a lot of people. Very pleased. You could see it. Even some of the staffers around Parliament, Yeah, you know, fantastic. [02:10:00] This whole sort of about me being there, you know, And of course, other politicians and that there was some sort of they all knew who I was. And there was no denying that I was ever going to be sort of a, you know, a forgotten backbencher, you know, sort of. And so from the moment I think I first went to Parliament, um, I see publicity and and profile and that are everything to a new backbencher. You've got to get as much attention, you know, to yourself. [02:10:30] And of course, it just arrived with me. I mean, and that was sort of, you know, I was going to be in the spotlight from the get go, but it wasn't like I could just skulk away into the corner of the chamber and be forgotten about or not noticed or whatever. So every time you know, the first time I was ever going to make a speech the first time I was ever going to do this and that and, um and whatever, What's she going to be like on select committees? You know, they're really interesting kind of dumb, useless [02:11:00] questions Is that thing I'm gonna be asking, You know, uh, just the human dynamics around the table of having some It's quite weird, luckily, of course, of course. And I shouldn't not forget to neglect to them. But I had Chris Carter and Tim Barnett were the only other out gay MP S in Parliament at at the time. And, of course, Chris particularly but Tim as well have had had had to deal with the, um, attitudinal culture inside parliament, um, by themselves [02:11:30] from the time that you know that they had been in and there'd been some pretty nasty, you know, Chris had famous run ins with John Banks and people like that, you know, in the day. So now I've come into parliament, and, um you know what? Marilyn Waring All those years beforehand, of course. But that's only come to pass. You know, she she didn't have to. You know that? That sort of, uh yeah, it's amazing for those of us that have [02:12:00] well, which are very few. Really? Oh, there's a lot now. I mean, Christ, just about every second person in parliament at the moment now, we just made it so common the pink of the parliament, as they call it. Um, did you find that there was much discrimination? Still W when you went in? No, I. I, um, found very little of that, and I don't think and because I had a high a high profile, [02:12:30] if I say so myself, um, leave it up to others to judge as to whether or not I had a high profile. But I had a pretty high profile for a new backbench MP, and it was going to be with me and that the profile was positive, not negative. And, um, yes, of course. There was a little bit of negativity out there from the naysayers and the fundamentalists and so on and so forth. Um, out there. But by and large, um, I was affectionately regarded by many New Zealanders. So to [02:13:00] start climbing into me on that level. Um, for other politicians, it would have been very churlish and not something that would necessarily work in their favour. They had to argue me on on policy or points or, you know, that kind of thing on the work, not the person and all my past. And of course, when things like prostitution reform came up the debate, I was one of the few that could stand in Parliament quite happily regaling my [02:13:30] my previous experience and then challenging the house to sort of say, Is there anyone else in here who's who knows it like I do? Of course it wasn't. You could have heard a pin drop. Of course, there wasn't a few shameful glances down at the floor. But, um but no, um, so, you know, that sort of sent a message that I well, you know, this is a matter before us. I've got some experience in this. I'm going to put my perspective, my experience, and it's my contribution to the debate and to [02:14:00] the house and and all of that sort of thing. And I think people just came to respect that, Um, I think I was lucky enough to enjoy, um, respect from across the house. Um, you know, go and talk to people of my era or the time that I I was in there. And for the most part, I'm sort of more well thought of than not. And, [02:14:30] uh and that's that's lucky to get in and out of parliament like that. What do you think your proudest moments are in Parliament? Mm. Oh. Oh. I can't pin them down to one, I guess. Obviously getting there legitimately being there. Um, [02:15:00] it's always a privilege. I know it's an offset cliche, but it's a privilege to serve a new parliament. Um, and And I got there on merit, and I'm proud of that. Um, I'm proud of most of the legislation that I've supported. Not all of it. Um, I've been around for [02:15:30] one or two pieces that I hate. It's like a broken record. But, you know, civil union and prostitution reform were fairly major social, um, pieces of legislation in that decade, and, um and I I was a vocal supporter of both of them. I wasn't the promulgator of them. Not at all. Um, they actually Tim Barnett was the promulgator of both of those. And, [02:16:00] um, I think I stand to be corrected. But, uh uh, but, uh, civil unions started out as a members bill and became a government bill. And, you know, at the end of the day, but, uh, he supported and prostitution reform well, again, that was definitely a member's bill. That was, uh, Tim's member's bill. And I supported him amongst others. God, I wasn't the only one. I just happened to be the one of the more reported ones, [02:16:30] so I'm proud of those debates. I'm proud of the day. Oh, God. There's lots of things you could say you could be proud of. I suppose, um, representing my electorate, uh, getting our hospital, um, doing all of the things for my electorate that I wanted to do and that they wanted me to advocate for and delivered on, um, all of that to be proud of being able to, uh, counteract [02:17:00] the event known as the Destiny Church and Brian Tamaki. And the enough is enough march. That was anti civil union bill and pro family values. And, um, and I had some celebrated clashes, public clashes with, um Brian Tamaki and one in the end, didn't I? This party got kicked to nowhere, didn't it? Um [02:17:30] and yeah, there was that, um my advocacy for for, um, significant minorities. I'm proud of those. Some of those things that I've been able to contribute to when asked and required. Yeah, proud of those. And that's about being able to use the position to assist, you know, which is what it's we are representatives. At the end of the day, there was that moment with the within [02:18:00] the civil unions where, um Brian Tamaki and the church marched to Parliament. And that day, Um, and I remember hearing, um, you speak then and strong, strong stuff that was, um to be able to stand up like that in front of such a kind of hateful audience. Well, to thank you for that, Yes. I stood on the steps of Parliament that day holding a rainbow flag For about two [02:18:30] hours. They were marching down from Civic Square and Wellington through the street and and down to Parliament. So I had no idea what the March looked like. But in the morning, early in the morning, about 6 a. m. or something like that. Now I had an apartment at Parliament on the 20th floor of Bowen House, and I was looking out the window and I could see the stage set up being put up on the forecourt of Parliament. And I thought, Gee, that's a bit more than we usually have for, [02:19:00] um, for protests. We knew that this protest was going to be happening that day, but we didn't realise. And I certainly didn't realise the imagery they were going to present to the nation when they did that March 600 men and boys dressed in black, um, doing, um, punching the air with their fists, walking down the street. Um, saying enough is enough. And it looked something like out of [02:19:30] a Nuremberg rally. And I had stood on the steps of Parliament holding this rainbow flag, waiting for them to arrive on the forecourt. Um, 8000 turned up in the end, and they all And when I and a small group about 100 and 50 of pro civil union supporters dressed in their orange and white, uh, sort of uniform for want of a better term, that was the colours of the campaign for civil unions at that time, and they were gathered [02:20:00] around the statue at Parliament and as the Destiny Church. Enough is enough. March arrived at Parliament grounds. From my vantage point on the landing on the steps of Parliament, they looked like a black cancer spreading across the front lawn of Parliament and engulfing the orange and white clothed civil union protesters. And that looked like that. And there they were, isolated and they were being. And [02:20:30] the stage set up had been set up for Brian Tamaki to do his evangelising from, um at the protest. And he arrived, accompanied by about 40 other pastors from around the country and a bevvy of henchmen. And he they marched him up to the stage like in Roman formation and that sort of thing and started off this rally, and I'm standing on the steps. Sue Kley joined me. Sue Bradford joined me. A few others, you know, MP S, who happened to be there, came out and joined me and, um [02:21:00] came and stood with me and just sort of around me and look after me. Um, up there while they're protesting. That's fine. And this famous television footage of Brian addressing that rally and I happened to remark while I'm standing on the steps at one point where he would have a blurb and then, you know, you got 8000 people responding with Enough is enough punching the air. And I just [02:21:30] said aloud, realising the press gallery and most of them come out into the steps of Parliament and I said, Oh my God, I feel like I'm standing at a Nuremberg rally. You know? I'm you know, I'm looking shocked and horrified because it did sort of feel you could feel this hatred sort of coming forth from these people in that sense and other journals and that sort of yeah, God, you know, that's pretty amazing. And after they had finished having their rally, I said to Ramon, [02:22:00] I said, I've got to go down because I could see the, um, pro Civil Union people standing around the statue and they were distressed. They were being pushed and Josh jostled and verbally abused and all of that and I just headed down to them, got through the barriers that the security had put up and stuff like that to go down and to, um to talk to them and to just sort of, you know, be with them in solidarity kind of thing. I got pushed and jostled [02:22:30] and ridiculed and abused and everything as I got there. And Ramon got very scared for me and, um, dragged me back up onto the forecourt behind the protection of the barriers and stuff like that. Now, Destiny had set up a sound system. The Rolling Stones would have been proud of big, loud megaphone, you know, full on, um, amplified system. And they were still talking. And, uh, you know, on the microphones, I think the Christian Heritage Party person was [02:23:00] yabber away. And I was I just got this angry, this this sort of anger world up in me and I marched along the front of the forecourt talking back at them and of course, I was yelling at them because they had this big, loud, loud system and as if they were listening to me and they were all taunting me and pointing at me and stuff like that, and I just stopped, and I can't remember exactly what I said, but, um, the press, the press pack ran after me and followed me because they were behind [02:23:30] the safety barriers too, and just sort of come around me and captured this interaction I had with the people it played on the television news that night. And I looked like some screaming ee because I was I was remember, I'm trying to battle be heard over a loud hailer system, and I haven't got anything like that to amplify. And so it looks like I'm like a screaming ban. And I'm saying, you know, why do you hate us so much [02:24:00] and so on and so forth and that kind of thing, And that ended up on television and it didn't look that good. Actually, some obviously there were for the gay community. And for those of our friends who supported what we would, you know, things like that, they'd be going, Yeah, yeah, you know, saying how people felt. You know why this and all of that. But luckily, the following day, Paul Holmes, on The Home Show on television, got me and Brian Tamaki, [02:24:30] um, doing a head to head in the studio. So a much more controlled and serious environment in which to debate the issue and stuff like that. And, yes, one of my proud moments. I demolished him with my arguments. Um, Brian Tamaki and with the assistance of Paul, I have to say, because he was being fair minded and balanced in his question and inquisitorial approach. But then to the end of it, you could He suddenly started to chuck [02:25:00] a few other things at Brian that, you know, because you could tell Paul was sort of really on the side of us, you know, and And my argument And Tamaki was not acquitting himself. Well, um, and so when you started asking about the tithing and the fabulous Rolex watches and your mansion house and your Queen Mary two, you know, and all of this sort of thing, you know, Brian gets very defensive during that, And so But on the serious side, I was, you know, able to [02:25:30] brush off the sort of some of the critics that were coming out and sort of saying, Oh, she's just a drama queen. You know, we're using overly emotive language and you know what do you mean? Why did they have to raise Hitler in the Second World War? You know, all of this kind of thing being being thrown, It but, uh, because that they happen to be in denial about these things is not my problem. Um, and luckily on the few television battles [02:26:00] and radio battles that I had at that time just over that particular march and the whole destiny and the Civil Union thing like that, um, you know, write one out at the end of the day, and, um, I was just a part of it. There must have been others, too, at the time, but I just sort of tended to get get a bit more attention, Really. The grunt behind it all was Tim Barnett. At the end of the day, as far as, um, shepherding through these pieces of legislation [02:26:30] and keeping the, um, the movement that's helping that to happen, uh, cohesive and happening And, um, serious and professional And, you know, and all of that and I was just a good mouthpiece, I guess, at the appropriate times to get in there and and and fight it. What? What do you think the hardest part of being an MP were? Mm [02:27:00] Oh, the long hours, the dealing with the myriad, the wide I mean, that's not a boring day. There's always something happening. I think keeping up with the pace, you know, required was was quite difficult. Um, I didn't enjoy always the discipline of collective responsibility in a government caucus having to support things I didn't really want [02:27:30] to. But I've been party whipped, you know, into doing things for sure. And as an example of that where I was disobedient. But in the end of the day, I had to capitulate and vote in favour, and I really didn't want to and then frustrated them. And Helen, I suppose by, um, still speaking out about how I felt and that I felt terrible about having to vote in favour of it. And really, once the caucus has decided that you do it, you all put on a happy phase. Yeah, we're happy about doing this. [02:28:00] Not, um, you know, and I would just sort of have to, but I guess showed some disobedience, and I think I think I might be wrong, but, um, I think that was the beginning of the end of my ever progressing any further in parliamentary politics. Um, at the 2005 election, I definitely wanted to leave, uh, then, but was persuaded to stay on for my final term and I went back as a list. MP um I wanted, [02:28:30] uh, because of the way a quote of myself during the civil unions debate and and more of that. And, um, I had a member's bill on the ballot and that at the time and after the 05 election, I was touting for a promotion of some sort. I wouldn't have mind that a minor ministerial role to start sort of moving into that level of what? I figured that I sort of paid my [02:29:00] dues. I'd done my time. I went on an electorate a couple of times and, you know, and all of that sort of thing. And, um, I think I was the ability to take on, um uh, you know, a more responsible role. But it wasn't forthcoming. So I sort of lost my mojo really about wanting to stay there for you know what for? What am I here for then if I can't, uh, professionally develop in this regard, um, I've achieved everything I said I was going to achieve my electorate. I had stood down from [02:29:30] the seat and gone back as a list member. Um, I couldn't get my members bill through the gender identity bill, uh, through because we had a much more conservative parliament, and I can still remember the caucus where of of the new caucus and after the 05 election, screaming at me to get rid of the bill because many of them had lost their seats over all of this. All of this controversial and stuff like that. And, uh, there had been a bit, [02:30:00] uh, they were a bit tired of it all. And so I didn't have the support, so that was disappointing. I had to go for plan B on that matter. And now I see that it's been somewhat addressed, Um, in the current, uh, marriage equality bill before the house, the gender identity, um, matter. So I decided to leave and way before I needed to. Um, I left in 2007. I could have stayed till [02:30:30] the 2008 election, but I thought, Well, what would I be sitting around for? You know, I tied tied off the ends of things that I wanted to achieve, and that was that and sort of sitting on my backside, and they're just raking in the money doing damn all. And I decided to leave then, and that was fine. Was it what you expected it to be? Parliament. I don't know what I expected it to be. [02:31:00] It was a place that made laws. Um, it was a place that could wield an influence over your community and things like that. Um, no, no, Parliament hasn't disappointed me. Um, at all the institution of parliament I hugely respect and admire. And, um, I think, you know, for all its flaws, we have a pretty damn good democracy in the world [02:31:30] scheme of things. And, um, a treaty can provide anyone with the opportunity to participate in our democracy if they want to. And that's becoming more and more apparent, I think, particularly under this, um, um M MP environment, the proportional representation environment. It's offered that louder and and more diverse voice to be heard in parliament. It doesn't always, um, bode well for those [02:32:00] that prefer the old way. But, um, I like the idea that we've got a lot of colour in that parliament. We don't want it to be monochrome. So you live in 2007 and between 2007. And now, in 2012, there have been a number of articles, um, with headlines, like, you know, broken living off the unemployment benefit. Um, not being able to get work. How has it been kind of leaving after leaving Parliament? [02:32:30] More difficult than actually getting there? Yes. No, no, no. It has been, um um uh, not good. And, uh, I can't quite analyse why that is, other than the odd bits of work that come along now, it's, uh it's not been good. That's exactly how it's it's It's been like I can't answer as to why. It's not as if I haven't got ability. [02:33:00] Um, although I don't have any formal qualifications. Yeah, that's very difficult. And I I'm guessing it must be quite difficult, actually. Having those kind of stories written in in news print as well. Oh, well, only from the perspective that, um it's not good when the, um, potential employer, um, Googles [02:33:30] your name. And there it is. An endorsement, Is it for people? But, uh, on the other hand, if I've had media inquiries about what am I doing? I mean I could bullshit. Um, but you know, to what end? So it just is what it is, and you tell it like it is, and they report the truth. Um, that's the truth. That's how it is. Um, otherwise they'd be writing about [02:34:00] how I was hiding the fact that I'm, you know, and all of that sort of thing. Mm. I don't know. It's hard to explain why. I mean, you know, um, there are certain jobs I don't want to do, regardless of being, you know, And Paula Bennett takes a swipe at me from time to time over that, even in the house now, because I once said in some newspaper article that it, um, yes, of course I'm out there job hunting, but I don't necessarily want to be a crew member [02:34:30] at McDonald's. Thank you very much. Oh, but there's dignity and being, you know, flipping burgers at McDonald's. Well, yeah, I'm sure there is, but not for me. I mean, you know, that's the other, you know, it's I've become used to it now, but can you imagine the first day post parliament career that I had to walk into the master work and income office, where the last time I had attended there had been with the Minister [02:35:00] of Social Development of the day or the prime minister even to visit the place, to register unemployed and ask for the Dole humiliation to the max and that I had sold all my property, my house and stuff that I had bought and all the things that I had had in order that I didn't have to go on the dole and lived off all of that sort of stuff. You know, I think a job will come, a job will come. And people [02:35:30] who you had known collegially worked with in the past might have helped Whatever in the course of your job, now, sort of almost across the street, if they see you coming, um, the doors close, um, people don't want to know, you know, because you're not a person of influence anymore of any particular standing other than that you has been now and suddenly some of the old prejudices, I think, and some of the old sort of, you know, spitefulness [02:36:00] and whatever can come back, because now I'm not in quite a strong position as I might have been when I was in Parliament or I was the mayor or I was this person that's interesting to watch that dynamic happen. There will be those within the scene. They're quite happy to have seen one tobb off one's pedestal and, um, you know, and cut down to size. It's that tall poppy thing again, and he'll be quite glad about it. And [02:36:30] then me, who's sort of bamboozled about I've got a, you know, a lot to offer. And it's not as if I haven't been out there touting and and, you know, for getting some sort of work. But then when you get confronted with, oh, you got to have a qualification in this and I'm not very good on computers and stuff like that which, you know, I managed to get through an entire 14 15 year history of politics without having a God Dan computer. And now suddenly it's important. Um, you know, yes, it helps. I can use it to a certain degree, [02:37:00] you know, and all of those sorts of things. It's, um, crazy. Oh, bits and pieces of entertainment stuff comes along, but, you know, I'm getting on a bit now. getting a bit past all of that. Um, no one's come rushing out of the woodwork, whether it be NGO S, gay advocacy groups, Um, you know, human rights organisations boards that I could serve on, um and all of that sort of thing. None of that's come up and sort of offered itself or made itself available or anything like that. [02:37:30] And yet I've I've got a world of experience. I've, you know, I've done stuff. I know how to deal with all of that sort of thing. But no, no, no. When you get journos and people like that, who sort of, you know, tell you to go and reinvent yourself and all of those sorts of things I'm thinking, you know Who the hell What do you mean, happy with the old invention? Thank you very much. You know what? I have to go and get a new one for, um [02:38:00] mhm. There have been a number of instances where there have been either documentary films made about you. Uh, there's been a biopic, but there's also been your autobiography. Why was it important for you to, uh, have your story out there and to kind of keep telling your story. The book came about. The book is called a Change for the Better, Uh, written by Kay Casey and [02:38:30] myself. And it came about I was approached by Random House to consider writing a book about my life. Um, as I was coming up to the 1998 mayoral local body elections And, um so I agreed to do one. Sort of. I was sort of reluctant because I'd never written a book before. But this colleague of mine, Cathy Casey, who is now an Auckland city councillor [02:39:00] But at that time, she was a South district councillor. So we were council colleagues. And, um, she did part time journalism as well as being a teacher, and, um, And when Random House asked me if I would consider having a book written about my life, I said, But I'm no author. I can't write, I don't want to do it. And they said that they would provide me with, um with a writer unless I knew of someone myself. [02:39:30] And I said Cathy and yes, and that's how it came about. And essentially all that happened was Cathy turned up with a tape, a tape recorder and I just sat down and we just talked and she transcribed what I said. And virtually verbatim the book is that conversation. It didn't have any editing done to him. He submitted the draught to Random House except for punctuation, spelling it. Stuff like that. Um, it [02:40:00] was fine. And so it got printed the way it was done. And that's how that got done. It got published, of course, when it was realised that I was going to run. Oh, and the book ends as I'm about to head into the 1998 mayoral election. So I had no idea what the result would be by the time the book was, you know, finishes comes to an end and, um, but of course, what happened is I did get reelected. My majority was huge, and, um and then parliament subsequently happened [02:40:30] in 99 and the book was published and went out on the shelves in 99 heading into that. So obviously the publishing company sort of timed that to go along with the consequential publicity around my election campaign and got published, I can remember I won't name her, but one reasonably senior labour MP who was to become a minister. Um, later I can remember her saying to me one day, [02:41:00] What the hell are you doing? Publishing a book now? It'd be terrible. Oh, God, the hassles you'll get from it. And because I tell all story and all of this kind of thing and it's going to be a terrible, um, blight blot on my copy pad at the time. Of course, it was absolutely contrary. The absolute opposite opposite happened. And, um so that was how the book came about. And like I say, it ends just prior to the 1998 election. And, [02:41:30] um and there's now another book to be told because of what happened after that, Um, there's a book in itself. Um, that's how the book came about. The documentary that I think aired in about 2002, uh, was made. It's called Georgie Girl. And it's a 70 minute documentary, uh, made by, um, Annie Goldson of occasional film productions, and, [02:42:00] um and she approached me just out of the blue. I have never met her in my life. I didn't know who she was, and now I was in Parliament and I think she came to me in about 2001 or something and said, you know, would you be in? No, she came to me in 2000. Actually, not long after I got elected and asked that I said no. I said I was too busy adjusting to my new work life, and I didn't need to have a fly on the wall, you know, um, documentary crew running around with me and so delayed [02:42:30] it when I was ready. And then because I didn't know her. Not that I didn't like her or anything, but I just didn't know her. And, um, felt a lot more comfortable. And we were able to bring Peter Wells on board, and so he sort of cod directed with her and, um, on it, and that's how Georgia Girl got made. And, um, it did very well for her. She's won four or five or, um, international, um, best documentary awards for, uh, Georgie [02:43:00] girl. And that was, uh, virtually a tell what it was, uh, you know, fairly open. Tell a story about me, and, um, the advantages of those kinds of doing that kind of thing is that once it's stuff is documented, and then it provides some concrete. Um, hard copy, I suppose, for, um, other people to utilise how they will So the you know, the Georgia, Uh, sorry. The, um, change [02:43:30] of the bitter book ended up on most libraries. I think it's been translated into Chinese. It's, um you know, I got three reprints. Um, it did quite well to make me any money or anything. I know that. What? You don't know it was about, but, uh, and that was that. And just a little snapshot of a period of time. Piece of our social history and the Georgia girl do really just, you know, now visually documents, um, you know, And what? Yeah, a lot [02:44:00] of stuff. But that's how I wasn't sort of a you know, I didn't go out pursuing those things. They just sort of came to me, and, um and I participated in them. Do you ever get tired of of telling your story? Yes. Yes, I guess, um, and yes and no, of course. You know, you just become, like a broken record. Sometimes you feel like you're just repeating stuff. You've said 1000 times before And, [02:44:30] you know, why does somebody ask something different? Because there's, you know, 1000 things that could tell you exactly what I've just told you now. But, uh, but I think as long as people are interested, then it's sort of incumbent upon me to regurgitate it and to bring it up again. You know, that's what people are interested in. I'm pretty sure now that, um, most of the document, you know, stuff is documented because it moves beyond just being [02:45:00] a curious human interest story into now, Um, a historical fact, some of it, you know, that's happened from a very narrow historical perspective, I suppose. But it's there and primarily politics, but also social politics. And and also, uh, you know, Yeah, just the colour of our world. And I'm just a little wee part of I'm a pixel in it. [02:45:30] Earlier on, you were you were saying that you were speaking at international conferences. Um, but I've been to a number of things in Wellington where you have been mentioned and with with much love. But you haven't attended things like the, um, human Rights conference at the art games a couple of years ago. and, uh, a recent marriage equality conference. Are you speaking in New Zealand at at kind of queer events? No. No, I don't [02:46:00] get asked. I didn't get asked to either of those things that you have mentioned, not the art games conference. And, uh, nor at the conference on marriage equality. Um, and I don't know why, uh, that, you know, But perhaps it's Georgina overkill, and, you know, and then I'm not offended by it. I mean, I sort of think, Oh, gosh, I thought I might have been asked to come along. [02:46:30] And, um, you know, just say a few words or whatever, because that's usually been the auspices under which I've gone overseas. To speak at other big, huge conferences, you know, and things is because of this New Zealand experience, but I think probably in New Zealand they're a bit over me now. And not only that, there's a new generation of political activism going on for the younger generation, many of whom, unfortunately do not have a comprehensive memory [02:47:00] of our very recent history. Um, and they know of events that have happened, but they don't necessarily know of people who did it. Um and I guess I might be falling into that category. And now that there are other, you know, it's those of us who have gone before before have laid the groundwork. Now for those who are the spokespeople and who are being pushed forward to be the advocates and to stand up and and [02:47:30] the organisations to do it. And I think people like me sometimes have got to know when to just stand back and let that happen. And if they need you and if they want you and then they and they And if they know you're available and you're there, well, you're there for them. But otherwise you got to let the baby go. You gotta let them do it for themselves because, yeah, and I think that's sort of what's happening. So, you know, and usually at those [02:48:00] things you've got a whole lot of people and keynote speakers are getting up and parroting the same thing. Just using different lingo. You know, they're more essentially on the same message, so it's a bit repetitive, you know, in that sense, uh, to do it. But, um, yeah, you gotta let them sort of. You'd like to think that they would want to seek the advice of the likes of me or others. Um, who have been there and done that? Uh, purely from an advice point of view, you know, how [02:48:30] do we go about doing this? How do we mobilise? How do we strategize? How do we get together? A collective a diverse but a a group to act collectively to move forward on a particular matter. At this instance a minute, it's, you know, marriage, equality, you know, on those things. And I think there's a growing, um, dispersement in the in the LGBTI community where, you know, they became more [02:49:00] focused on their particular issues again, you know, the marriage equality thing, I think, is a dole compared to what's gone beforehand, to lay the groundwork to provide the leverage that marriage equality becomes really not a huge it's not as hugely, you know, we didn't see a destiny church marching to Parliament yet that I know of, you know, yes, there's been a bit of, you know, a bit of comment and a bit of negativity, but it's nowhere near the volume that it has been in the past, and it's nowhere [02:49:30] near as devastating because, you know, I think by and large a large proportion of the general population are over it, you know? And, um So what are some of the things that you think, um, are still currently affecting kind of rainbow communities in New Zealand? Well, the legislative agenda is practically sewn up. [02:50:00] Marriage equality gets through. Then that's that taken care of. It will come with, um, the adoption issue, obviously is, Is another one of the majors then I think it's got to come down to access to health, social and educational. All the other issues that every single other New Zealander has an interest in. We always have had an interest in those things. Um, uh, you know, because we are citizens as well [02:50:30] and are entitled to access to all of those sorts of things. Um, some of them are going to push the boundaries a bit again, Like, you know, people will probably be horrified to know that there is a little bit of miniscule funding available for sexual reassignment surgery in this country. Uh, certainly not enough. There's this dreadful situation of, um, transgender people and the correction system. Um, and you know and other things like that [02:51:00] that need to be more forcefully enforced now you know, to be concentrated. But, you know, I think on two matters like that. But I think the the heavy legal framework issues have just about all been tidied up. What about in terms of societal change society? It's like I said before, society's attitudes take generations to change. Law is easy to change. Relatively speaking, [02:51:30] Uh, but the attitudinal change is improving vastly from what it has even in my lifetime, and certainly within the last 20 years. Certainly, since homosexual law reform 25 years plus ago, um, and social attitude has softened, um, you cannot accept just to be tolerated. We must be accepted, not just tolerated. You know, you tolerate a whining dog, you know, you tolerate a squealing [02:52:00] cat. We know you just don't. You know we don't want to be tolerated anymore. The levels of tolerance the society can take it. Excuse me, I'm a human being, and I'm a citizen of this country, and we're taxpayers and generally law abiding. I expect exactly the same treatment as any other New Zealand citizen receives. Don't wanna have to grizzle over how my passport looks because I happen to be a transgender person. I don't want to have to, you know, put up with the omy of [02:52:30] in court having my butch name called out. Because that's how I was once known as when I have, for legal reasons and legally, forever being this way. I was outraged privately when the family of a transgender person who died in a plane crash in the South Island was paid the indignity of being buried as a man. I mean, you know, and no one to defend her for that, you know, for for that happening because of the family's decision [02:53:00] over how they were going to deal with it. I want to see those kinds of things. That's about an attitudinal change that is deep seated and very hard to just change overnight. It takes time and it takes, You know, I think we've got to cut out of a generation or two because they die off for that for that to become less of an issue. So you look to the younger generation to the Children of today who by and large are holding more softer view views on these [02:53:30] issues, uh, than my contemporaries or your contemporaries and those of our generation out of the baby boomer generation. Then once we get over the baby boomer generation and those sort of attitudes we're starting to see and not just about LGBTI issues but over a whole lot of other social issues, um will change over time. But it does take attitude takes time to change. And it will only change if the contribution that we as a significant minority in this country [02:54:00] continue to prove that we can work and and participate in our society alongside everybody else, making exactly the same contributions. We work, we pay tax. Um, we raise Children, we have families. Uh, we maintain law and order and all of those kinds of things. And there should be no no discrimination, no difference between what we are entitled to as citizens as anyone else. And, um, [02:54:30] that it might challenge your moral, um, issues as again their problem that we live with. And and that is what we're trying to to change, you know, we're trying to alter that II I No, I won't use the word. We are not looking for forgiveness here. There is nothing to forgive. Let's get that straight to begin with. Um [02:55:00] And so you know, if we've got to put that religious thing on it, you know, Christianity has got a hell of a lot to to to answer for and the misery it's wrought across, you know, upon some people's lives because of, um, belief and faith. And I think it does a disservice to the true sense in my view of what Christian goodness is meant to be when some, um, have have skewed religious to mean certain [02:55:30] things that exclude others or dominate others. Or, um, you know, makes us out to be the bad guys mean, You know, most of the rapists in this world are not gay, and, um, it's erroneous and and and completely wrong. I mean, this whole idea that that has been profited by the sensible Oh, by Garth McVicar uh, that, um, to have same sex [02:56:00] marriage might promulgate in the future. More criminal Children. Um, I can remember having an argument with with, uh Graham Capel, who was then the leader of the Christian Heritage Party in mid 19 nineties. In 1996. Actually, I was mayor of Carterton and Parliament had passed the birth Deaths and Marriages Registration Act. And, um, and it included the postoperative transsexuals could have, [02:56:30] uh, seek a certificate. Um, that would have them, uh, deemed as female or in their reassigned gender. And, um and he got on the TV and was all outraged about that. And the next thing you know, they'll be wanting to adopt Children and have families. And my argument to him was from what you are denying that I should be allowed, You know that people like me and others, you know, shouldn't be able to raise families and things. It was to know that that man was to be done a few years later for paedophilia. And, [02:57:00] um, and there'll be other, upstanding, solid member of our community, um, preaching at me and others like me, you know, to the nation, trying to suck us all into that he's the good, pious person. And turns out and haven't we found out how many of those solid, cornerstone, upstanding figures in our society have turned out to be some of the most heinous sexual abusers? Um, around as we've seen in recent history. So the hypocrisy is immense. And, [02:57:30] um, you know, again, you know, attitudes have got to change. We're not all like that. And I'm, as you know, outraged by those kinds of crimes as anyone else, but to deny me or any of my communities, you know, the gay community or whatever the right to have family family is so different these days. Uh, general [02:58:00] definition, you've got blend. You got all sorts of families, and you tell me if anyone is more or less disadvantaged by having two loving parents who may be of the same sex raising Children as opposed to a struggling solo parent trying to raise Children I mean, what are you gonna tell me? That they are all criminals, too? Or that they are all some moral degenerates? Some, maybe, Ferals, as Michael laws look, likes to call them. But not all of them, You know, I like [02:58:30] that. Good God. John Key managed to be raised in a low income poverty, you know, lived in a state house and so on and so forth and all of that, and he turned out all right. Um, you know Paula Bennett, you know, there we are shining star solo Mum managed to cream it off. The old taxpayer with the, um, with the advantages she got on the benefit. And as soon as she becomes the minister wipes it, Um, you know, hypocrisy. It's called, um, you know, double standards. You know, [02:59:00] it's, um yeah, it's incredible, but we'll get there a little. A little change. It's, uh, you know, I'm glad that there is a a young generation now, maybe getting a second generation now of LGBTI people who are living in a much nicer world and kinder world more, more, um, less forgiving world [02:59:30] in many respects, um, than what I experienced or what my those have gone before me experienced. And that's as it should be. I mean, what what's the whole point when you find yourself thrust into the limelight or the spotlight or whatever, when you're in a unique position to have somehow helped that change to occur? Um, that if they forget the young ones these days, forget their history a bit or don't pay quite the, uh, respect and acknowledgment of [03:00:00] their predecessors. That's fine. You know, far better for me to get bitchy about stuff like that. Um, you know, as long as they are well adjusted And, you know, being becoming the positive role models that we need to perpetuate, you know, into the future that we can all work pretty much in whatever sphere we wish to go into and be who we are. Um, you know, it was 30 years [03:00:30] ago, and a little bit more Where mean, particularly, just could never come out for it might risk their livelihood. Um, risk their, um, their freedom. You know, they could have been arrested, chucked in jail, you know, Uh, yeah, that's all changed pretty quick, Really? In the scheme of things, who do you look up to? Who do you admire? [03:01:00] We'll get inspired by. Oh, God. Um, well, obviously the upholders of human rights and civil rights I mean, other than, you know, the Martin Luther Kings of this world. The JFKS. You know, all of those kinds of global figures. Um, and, uh, from a Maori cultural perspective, I think, you know, people [03:01:30] like that, um, and, uh, people who just sort of pushed the boundaries a little bit. Who did it? Perhaps even without knowing it. Certainly in my own sphere, the likes of Chris and Carmen and and all the other trannies who were doing the drag shows and had to run between the clubs and men's clothes and all of that kind of thing. You know, um, they didn't know they were [03:02:00] just doing what they had to do. Um, but each little step provided a platform eventually so that, you know, a decade or two later, someone like me happens along and things happen because, you know, attitudes and visibility has been there. Visibility is quite important. And I guess if if, if my experience has been of any value, um, for our scene, that's the visibility that it's provided, um [03:02:30] and that it wasn't a caricature, it was a real a real, a real situ. It wasn't just a, um, and entertainment value. It was something more serious than that. And, um and there's a public record of achievement, too, and I just don't mean elections and things, but I you know, stuff done that despite the hub that happens around the media and the sort of. But, you know, you can reflect. As I've said [03:03:00] before, you can reflect back on how I've been written up and talked about, and my willingness. I have to bear some culpability here because I have participated and all of that exposure I didn't need to. I got to shut the door at certain points and kept it and kept it contained for want of a better term. But that would only probably inspire of the scrutineers, even more wanting to get into it. Because anything that so I've thrown it all out there. And in many [03:03:30] respects it's diffused and diluted Any potential for a great sensational explosion of something that could be quite devastating in a career? If I if if if I had kept secret that I was a transsexual and if I had been been successful in my political pursuits, as as it turned out to be. But that was a secret that nobody knew. Well, given my back story on the street [03:04:00] scene and the scene anyhow, how on earth could that I couldn't have got on national television? And so I said, Oh, no, I'm a street lady, you know? Oh, no. I hope to have marry and have Children one day and played this whole facade. I'd been outed at the drop of a hat just like that And, um, there's no point in living a lie. Why would you want to live a lie? Shouldn't have to live a lie. Didn't have to live a lie. And for me, that was hugely liberate, liberating. And it's [03:04:30] been hugely liberating for all of those that have been able to be out and be who they are. And whatever walk of life they have chosen whatever path they have chosen to, to be who they are. Much, much happier people, you know, to be you are It's not a secret. Do you want him to hide this thing? It's like, you know, my mother's here or whatever to have been a solo mother and pregnant. Was she? You were shoved away for nine months in the boondocks [03:05:00] somewhere to have the baby secretly. And you know, all of that horrible, horrible stuff that used to happen with alienation. Um, so visibility is a, um it's been, you know, relatively important factor. And some of the that surround surrounded me. I'm has been. Now it's all over, you know? You know, that's all sort of put to bed, I suppose, [03:05:30] in that respect. And that's fine, because the next the next generation have come along to assume the mantel as it should be. And it's our responsibility as the older generation to hold a hand out to help them through and to bring them through. Uh, you know, we can't get all selfish and go back into our own, you know, and just leave it up to them. Let them, you know, if they require [03:06:00] it, you know, if they need it, if they want it back to that thing about the conferences and stuff like that now, here in New Zealand, well, you know, I was pretty over exposed during my time of public office, and so it doesn't surprise me that they move on to the new ones that are coming through. I'll be very interested to know who the next transsexual to be elected into our Parliament is going to be. And, um and just on that, uh, I think that would, you know, I might not [03:06:30] have been able to do what I have done if I hadn't been for a major political party. Um, even though I was reluctant to begin with, a major political party wasn't happy for me to be under the banner so to speak. So, um, that was sort of helpful and sort of because it wasn't like I just came in on some fringe party into Parliament or, you know, the greens. They might have expected me to be in the green party [03:07:00] or something, you know, which possibly would, Uh, But, uh, that was a party that was going to hold government. And I served in a government, not just in a parliament, and that was sort of a different experience from someone. I mean, I can proudly say that all I ever knew in my parliamentary life was being in government. I was never in the opposition. Not many MPs can say that. Not only that, I got into parliament and out of parliament [03:07:30] with my nose relatively clean. At least I got to make a valedictory speech. Not everybody else did. Certainly not that it failed. Maybe, uh, just finally, um, I saw a piece from the New Zealand Herald in 19 in 2005, and it was five things I've learned so far. And I'm thinking, Can I read these back to you and bite you in the backside? Sometimes. But [03:08:00] the trouble with speeches off the top of your head, but they're really cool things. And the five things that you you you noted down were one be who you are. Yes, I stand by that I have been and you continue to be, which is incredibly II. I have so much admiration. Um see challenges as opportunities. Yes. Yeah, because, um, otherwise [03:08:30] it gets you down And that that that goes back to my sort of, um, some of the reflections I had on suicide and and and bad things that have happened to you. You can walk around with a chip on your shoulder or your like or else you can, you know, meet the challenge and sort of know, I'm There's something better than that, you know, and I should have a go at it. Don't dispose of past experiences. No, don't dispose of past experiences at all. Um, you know that [03:09:00] history, for better or for worse, is is your makeup. It's what makes you who you are. It's what sustains you. Until now, I'm not saying live in the past or or wallow in it or anything, but just as a as a marker, you know, it provides points of reference, I think be upfront. Oh, for sure. Well, in my life, that's definitely been an advantage. [03:09:30] Some might think it's been a disadvantage. And even though you know, some could say, Say, Well, look at the results of it like right now what I'm having. But no, it's, um Yeah, and the final one was Believe in what you say, but think before you say it. Oh, they they they were all pretty sensible. I thought those, um yeah, think before you say something sometimes because, you know, you don't want to unnecessarily, [03:10:00] um, stomp on other people's manner, you know, or at least, um, agree to disagree, you know, on some things. I mean, I don't like a lot of the in doctrinal attitudes of the Brian of this world or the Garth MC Vickers of this world or the macro of this world. Those who have a different view. But I'll defend their right to say it. [03:10:30] And I prefer to see eyeball to, you know, look in the eyes of my enemy rather than those that work subversively out of sight like the exclusive brethren did in the 2005 election. Um, You know, um, I like to look into the face of it and and, um, you know, carry it on there, so Yeah, well, thank you so much. I mean, we've been talking for I think about 2. 5 hours. It goes, [03:11:00] goes very fast, but, um look, I, I think, um, if you asked about everything you wanted to know No, no, no. What was some of the other questions that might have been better? No. We've got a lot of ground. It It's been it's been great, but, um, thank you so much, because, um, I think there are a whole lot of people out there that really admire, um, what you've done and who you are. And, um, just seeing you in [03:11:30] parliament, I mean, this The symbolic nature of that gives so many people hope. But did they feel the same way with Chris? And with Tim and with Marion and with Charles and with Grant and Marilyn Waring? Of course. I think she's revered in that regard because of her experience, which is incredible. And, um, you know, many others, Um um for the transgender world. Yes, uh, but I think [03:12:00] apart from that I'm I'm not so special. Um, I think people just enjoyed at the time the whole spectacle of this unconventional politician arriving on the national stage and then the international stage legitimately, cleanly. She's not the stereotypical [03:12:30] training. And yet she has been, you know, and all of that. And there was just a whole lot of elements I think that gave people more rather than you know, more people rather than not a sense of a You know, I feel good about this. I don't feel badly about it. Good honour. You know, there's some kind of sort of underdog battler from Struggle Street did. [03:13:00] Well, just to punch a phrase off John Banks, Um, that I was mayor of his hometown makes me happy. Yeah. I mean, I kind of think it was actually, um, for me personally that, you know, we have a a strong person that knows who they are that is doing the right thing. And actually, III, I really admire that.

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TITLE: Georgina Beyer - places and personalities
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VOICES: Georgina Beyer
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 10 o'clock closing; 1970s; 1980s; Alfies 1; Ali Baba's nightclub; Anita Daniels; Aotearoa New Zealand; Arthur Baysting; Auckland; Australia; Big Teds; Billie Holiday; Bistro bar; Bloomers Review (Alfies); Brett Sheppard; Brian Le Gros; Burgundy's (Auckland); Ca d'Oro (Auckland); Caluzzi Bar and Cabaret (Auckland); Carmen Miranda; Carmen Rupe; Carmen's Curio Shop (second location); Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Carol de Winter; Chrissy Witoko; Clown's restaurant (Auckland); Club Exotic; Club Exotique; Cuba Street; Dana DePaul; Dana de Milo; Debbie Dorday; Dinah Priestley; Dolores del Rio; Egyptian Tearooms; El Matador; Emmanuel Papadopoulos snr; Evergreen Coffee House; Family Bar (Auckland); Georgina Beyer; Ghuznee Street; Great Northern Hotel (Auckland); Hole in the Wall; Howe Street public toilet (Auckland); Hutt boys; Imperial Hotel; Jacquie Grant; Johnny Coolman; Les Girls (Auckland); Les Girls (Sydney); Malcolm McLaren; Marcus Craig; Marlene Dietrich; Michael Fowler; Mojo's (Auckland); New Zealand Party; Nicole Duval; Out (magazine); Out! Centre Bookshop; Pasi Daniels; Phil Warren; Powder Puff (referred to as the Powder Poof, Wellington); Rainton Hastie; Red Mole (performance group); Rion McKenzie; Robert Jones; Ron Brierley; Roy Stacey; Royal Oak Hotel; Salvation Army Citadel; San Francisco Bath House; Sorrento Coffee Lounge; Staircase nightclub; Starlight Express (musical); Stilboestrol; Sunset Strip; Surgery of Dr Thomas Ongley; Sydney; Sydney by Night (bus tour); Tavern bar (Royal Oak Hotel); The Balcony / Le Balcon; The Purple Onion; Thomas Ongley; Tony Burton; Tony Katavich; Vivian Street; Wally Martin; Wellington; White House strip club (Auckland); alcohol license; arrest; art-a-rama; art-a-rama of poses; batique; bedroom gymnastics; boarding house; breast augmentation; burlesque; cabaret; coffee bar; deviant; drag; exploitation; felonious intent; finances; gender dysphoria; gender reassignment surgery; homosexual law reform; hormone breast; hospitality; intolerance; language; law; media; murder; nightclub; objectionable material; peep show; plucked; polari; police; psychosexual disorder; queen; sailor; saloon door; sex work; sickness benefit; sly grog; snake dancing; soliciting; sprung; striptease; teacup; the dole (unemployment benefit); tranny; transcript online; transexual; transgender; trick strip; unspring; velvet painting; venues; wig
DATE: 27 January 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, I, um, came onto the scene, so to speak. And I'm talking about the twilight world of the Vivian Street scene. I guess in 1976 I had had a part time job at, um, the Royal Oak Hotel, which was a major hostility. Um, on the day in Wellington, which had, um, a couple of fascinating bars to it. One was famously known as the bistro bar, which [00:00:30] was, um, populated by, um, an eclectic mix of, um, of life. Um, everything from drag queens to trannies to prostitutes, male and female. Um, sailors. Um it was quite a sort of rough bar, really. But, um uh, full of all of this colour of life, uh, next to the bistro bar was a smaller bar called the Tavern Bar. And that was virtually [00:01:00] exclusively a gay bar. Um, gay men and women, but probably more predominantly gay men. In fact, tranny weren't particularly welcome inside the bar, but they did. We did go in there from time to time. The rest of the hotel was conventional. Um, upstairs was a bistro sort of restaurant bar, which is where one of my flatmates, real Mackenzie worked as a maitre D and a lounge bar and a typical, you know, um, hotel [00:01:30] of the day in Wellington. Um, but a lot of nightlife emanated from, particularly the bistro bar and the tavern bar. And, um, it was on the corner of Cuba Street and Dixon Street in Wellington. It now no longer exists. It was pulled down quite a lot of years ago, opposite the what was then known as the James Smith's department store. And, um, famously, there was a jewellers shop on the street frontage of the Royal Oak Hotel, where a dreadful murder [00:02:00] of the jeweller happened. I think his name was Paul Met, which was quite, um, an infamous murder of the day. Um, happened there, Um, it used to be our routine. Um, when we had 10 o'clock closing that the, you know, the bar would, the bars would empty, and everyone would sort of, um, head on up Cuba street, heading eventually toward, um, Vivian Street area. And, um, there were other hotels. The imperial, um and [00:02:30] oh, God, I can't remember the names of some of the others at the moment. And various nightclubs. Um, just to keep on with the Royal oak. How did that? How did those two bars, um, work in a time when homosexuality was illegal? I mean, how how did they get on with, say, like, the police? Well, the police, yes, would be ever present. Certainly around closing time or anything like that. I don't I think they sort of turned [00:03:00] a bit of a blind eye. There wasn't a hell of a lot in the way of arrests and that kind of thing. Yes, for, um, drunk and disorderly behaviour, which was quite a bit, um, and so they would be there, uh, for that kind of thing. But I don't personally recall any arrests as such for being gay or anything at that time, so I'm not quite sure what the philosophy on the ground for police was necessarily around that scene. And those [00:03:30] at that time there were, um I mean, up on the street scene. Um, yes. We would be arrested from time to time. Um, and processed end up in front of the district court on a Monday morning, Uh, I suppose, and fined. Usually. I mean, I got plucked once, as they call it, for frequenting with Felonious intent deemed as a rogue and a vagabond. And that was sort of a fairly standard, kind of, um, arrest [00:04:00] worthy, Um, thing of behaviour. Uh, because, uh, tranny at least, anyhow, they found it very difficult, um, to be able to charge them with soliciting and, uh, prostitution, I guess because, um didn't quite know how to fit, um, men who were dressed up as women who were selling them themselves. And it was soliciting that was illegal. Not so much prostitution, um, as such. And, um and so we would get picked up occasionally, and we just [00:04:30] sort of figured that it was, you know, a 50 buck. Fine. Well, you know, it's cheap tax, really? Um, and the ignominy, I suppose, of having to spend a weekend in the cells And, uh, you know, which was unpleasant. And we were treated quite nastily, I guess, um, by the police who weren't always friendly to us. In what way? Well, um, you can imagine a, uh, a tranny who may turn up [00:05:00] on a Friday night. And the cells, uh, certainly wouldn't be given anything for, like, shaving. You'd be wearing the clothes you'd gone out on on the Friday night you'd be put on with men. And so you ran the risk of any kind of abuse and violence and sexual violence that might occur over the weekend during their, um uh, during that, uh, you'd look like crap when you turned up in front of the judge on a Monday morning. Uh, quite often. And, um uh, but it was just par for the course. [00:05:30] Um, it was just the way it was. Um, sometimes some, uh, queens were particularly targeted by some police who just had this innate hatred of such people and would just fall short of being incredibly brutal to them, but very mean and nasty and threatening. And, um, yeah, it was really sort of unpleasant, but that was just part of what you had to deal with in those days at that time. And it was no squealing to anyone for Help me help me because you wouldn't [00:06:00] get it. Um, and, um and you just tolerated it. I guess at the time these days, of course, I'd throw the book at them. Um, and they wouldn't be allowed to, you know, um, that wouldn't be allowed to occur, But some of the venues that we used to, um, go to the Sunset Strip, which was owned and run by various people, but particularly Chris, who was a major figure in the transgender scene in Wellington at the time. [00:06:30] And certainly a contemporary of Carmen, in fact, probably predated Carmen as far as far as owning, Um uh, nightlife establishments she Although I never went to it, she had a place called the Powder Puff, and we all call it the powder puff. And, um, and then had an interest in the Sunset Strip, which is a major nightclub, which attracted, you know, not only those of us from the night scene, I guess. But all the sailors [00:07:00] and perhaps those who live, you know, the twilight world, the fringes of the criminal community and other such alternative people. And don't forget, after 10 o'clock closing and sly grog and all of that sort of stuff, you know, be going on in these establishments. So it wasn't exclusive to the so called undesirables. Um, you know, there'd be other people who would come along and go to those nightclubs, too. There was Alibaba's later known as the Cave, which was in Cuba Street um, it's now a band venue, I think called the San [00:07:30] Francisco bathhouse. Um, that's still there. Um, there was, um, Johnny Coleman had a couple of establishments, but those names escaped Me, too. The strip clubs on Vivian Street at the time. Were the club exotic? Uh, the purple onion. Uh, the hole in the wall, um, three sort of major ones. And also Chris, we took who eventually, um, had, um, a much beloved, uh, sort of, um, cafe. [00:08:00] I guess you'd call it called the Evergreen, Uh, which after Carmen's coffee lounge era had finished and closed, and Carmen had left New Zealand and gone to live in Australia. Um, Chris, he opened up the evergreen, which was, um, on Vivian street there. And, um, and that ran for many years and became quite a favourite haunt of, um, not only you know of us all, but it sort of was a replacement for the car coffee lounge. Um, era Carmen's Coffee lounge [00:08:30] had originally opened at 86. Vivian Street at the building no longer exists. It's right next door to the A Salvation Army citadel on Vivian Street. And I think actually the the site now is occupied by the New Zealand Film School is now built there, Um, at the moment. And, uh, and Carmen had acquired that building and ran it as a boarding house to begin with. And then, um, until she earned enough money, I [00:09:00] think, to open it up as a coffee lounge. So she had a coffee lounge downstairs, and she had rooms upstairs which later became, um, where some of our business occurred. If I can put it like that, Um, you know, she liked to cater to a wide variety of clientele. Hey, just before we get on to Carmen, I'm just wondering, do you know, um, more about the history of Chrissy Chris? Wait where she came from. And that [00:09:30] name? Yes. No. Chrissy is a major figure. She heard a light under a bush already. She wasn't one for seeking any kind of overt publicity. She was quite opposite to Carmen in that regard. Uh, but she was a major, major figure, um, as important, if not more important, in some ways than Carmen and, um as said Carmen was APR machine. I mean, you know, she was just an absolute PR machine, but Chrissy had and similar things. You know, at least she provided [00:10:00] places of safety and of work and of employment. And to be able to be who you are. Um, Chrissy I think Maori, Of course. We took all I think she's from the East Coast. I don't want to. Probably I'm not sure exactly what her tribal affiliations were. Um, originally, I understand that she had suffered some terrible abuse. Um, child abuse, sexual abuse when she was younger. I don't know what relevance that might have in her later life, Um, [00:10:30] a strong, large woman. And, um, but, uh, while firm, she had a huge streak of benevolence about her, too. Uh, which was, um, you know are really helpful, I guess at the end of the day. And, um, and a great person for hospitality, a lot like Carmen in that regard. And to provide a sort of a safe venue for people to be and and for all [00:11:00] walks of life to feel welcome. And, yeah, that was sort of the value of Chrissy. Do you know how Chrissy got into the hospitality business? No, I don't. No, I don't know how she got into it. Only that, Um I think it was her first establishment. Um, business was this powder puff, um, place, which I understand, was sort of a coffee bar. I kind of, um which was popular. I mean, it was part of New Zealand culture at that time when precisely, I'm not sure. I'm guessing [00:11:30] it must have been in the sixties. Um, that that must have been happening. I mean, another transgender person called Jackie Grant had a takeaway bar. Um, I understand for a while. And then, of course, Carmon emerged. But then Carmen burst forth, you know, with, um her establishment, the coffee lounge and the balcony, Uh, which was a cabaret, Um, show that she had a mixture of, um, drag queens and, um, and straight girls [00:12:00] and guys. In fact, my flatmate, Rheon McKenzie, who I talked about from the Royal Oak Hotel. He, um, did the sweet transvestite act I can remember to the ends of the late seventies. And before the balcony closed, the balcony was down in Victoria Street. Actually, it no longer exists as a building anymore. The new Wellington Public Library is now on the site. And, um and, uh, my flatmate Reon used to do the sweet transvestite act there. Um, [00:12:30] in the late seventies and the last sort of troupe that I can remember working there before it closed down was Red Mole, which was quite a well known and well respected sort of, um, entertainment group, uh, including, um, Arthur Baton. Famously. Can you describe for me what the atmosphere in the balcony was like? Oh, well, you walked up a, um, a relatively long flight of stairs from street level. And, [00:13:00] um, I got to the top and there would be, um, the counter to get in. You walked in to the venue a wide open room with a a catwalk tea style, uh, stage, um, tables and chairs for seating. You were table service as far as our drinks And, um, like refreshments. And things like that were served, um, a bit [00:13:30] of a Las Vegas style show, I suppose. Sort of Feathers and bras and G strings. And, um, and the drag queens that worked in the place, or the transgenders, if you want to call them that were always very beautiful. Um, exotic, beautifully costumed. Um, they most of them had, um, were some were sex changes. Some had had their breasts, uh, augmentation done. They were very [00:14:00] uns spring, uh, as we called them. In other words, you couldn't tell that they were. And this was sort of the, uh, the gimmick. I suppose that, um, ordinary, straight, hetero, um, audience members would find it difficult to pick who was the drag queen and who was the real girl. And so sometimes, you know, man might be with a beautiful creature dancing exotically, uh, either doing lip syncing to songs or doing comedy sketches [00:14:30] or those kinds of, um, acts. A burlesque, I guess, is really the style of the, um of the entertainment that went on there. And then you'd always get one of the queens that after they've done their act, they would whip off their wig, and that would be the sort of gimmick. You know, it wasn't an unusual, um, form of entertainment. I think in those days it was sort of titillating and, um, feel curiosity, factors and, you know, and that sort of thing. But it was classy, you know? It wasn't sort [00:15:00] of, um it was nothing like a strip club, and they didn't really strip. They might go topless and stuff like that. But, um, that was class. It was burlesque. It was more burlesque than, um, just a outright strip show or anything like that. What about the clientele? Oh, a mixture. It's a bit like the clientele that will go to see, like, girls in Sydney. I mean, um, you know, cabaret shows and dinner, dinner shows and things like that were not uncommon [00:15:30] in that era as a form of just general entertainment. This just had the added twist of that. You know, it's proprietor. It was madam Carmen and that you didn't know whether or not the girls on stage were real or not. And, um so yeah, so all walks of life, um, you know, couples and yeah, yeah, just all walks of life. There was no particular discrimination about that. And, um, people would just [00:16:00] go in for a good night out. It was non threatening. In that sense, it wasn't sort of overtly threatening or anything like that. Um, otherwise, it wouldn't have lasted for the many years that it did. Like I say, it was sort of similar in some respects to lay girls in Sydney, which was hugely respect respectable as far as a entertainment venue. Um uh, was concerned. Um, I don't know where the bus tours used to, you know, like in Australia, in Sydney, at lay girls, you know, there was a Sydney by night was a bus tour [00:16:30] that people would go on, and, uh, one of the places that they would go to for a period of the tour would be to lay girls. So, you know, Carmen's balcony was a bit similar in that sense, I think. Probably the only show of that sort in Wellington, that's for sure. There were other shows in Auckland. Um, Moos and Auckland had a lay girls as well. Um, and probably some other other shows. But those were the two most well known ones at that at that era. [00:17:00] And what about the size of the audience? Was it was it Was it packed it, or was it pretty? Well, I wasn't there all the time, of course. And all the times I went um, yeah, it was, um it was pretty well attended. Uh, toward the end of the era of the balcony, it became less and less so. You know, the audience were more spartan, and, uh, and I'm not sure why the balcony closed. Perhaps, um, it just wasn't making the money anymore. But more than likely, the lease on the premises probably ran [00:17:30] out. And you mentioned earlier about Carmen's International Coffee lounge. Did that precede the balcony, or was that something that happened after the balcony? I think it preceded the balcony, and and, um and then essentially at about the same time. But yeah, I'm not sure which came first entirely, but I'm pretty sure the the coffee lounge came first. And then the balcony. Can you tell me about the coffee Lunch? Oh, well, coffee lounge. Um, [00:18:00] first of all, you would have been struck by its facade. Uh, from from this, uh, from out on the street, it was two storied. Um, And like I said, the the ground floor was the coffee lounge. And that upstairs was where, uh, we entertained clients and Carmen had had as a bit of a boarding house and sometimes lived up there. Um, the facade was had been painted in sort of, um, Mughal style minarets and very exotic [00:18:30] sort of eastern, um, Middle Eastern sort of exotica. I suppose, and very colourful and and bold, which stuck out like a sore thumb on the otherwise do a sort of street that, um it was down at 86 Vivian Street. And remember, we're right next door to the Salvation Army citadel here, and it had an alleyway that ran down beside it. Um, also, um, where you had street level entry into the upstairs part of, um of the building. [00:19:00] Um, you walked inside the small, confined front door into a little, um, entry, I suppose, And then there'd be a sliding door and you would go in there. And that's where you paid your ticket, you know, paid to get in. Um, always, um, it was person by some exotic looking queen, um, or intimidating, whichever, whichever way. You looked at it. And then you walked into the coffee lounge, which was [00:19:30] sort of fairly small, but I suppose when you think about it, But, oh, red comes to mind as the colour of the predominate around the place. Big, huge golden red Chinese lanterns with tassels, big gold tassels hanging on them, um, exotic wall hangings and tapestries. Paintings of Madam Carly, those, um, velvet paintings you know, that kind of thing? Um, lots [00:20:00] of yes, lots of sort of lushness, really? In that sense, um, and dim sort of lighting for market tables and chairs and, um, and things like that, and just sugar bowls and all that sort of stuff on the table. Um, you went through into a kitchen area, which led on to where the toilet area was. Um, so if you were on your way to the bathroom, [00:20:30] you know, you'd probably come across doing the dishes. The fabulous Lola a tall, uh um, I think she was a Lebanese or some kind of, you know, um uh, they say they always dressed in sort of Audrey Hepburn short dresses and short sleeves, wearing long evening gloves with flaming red hair, wigs on and eyelashes out to here, that kind of thing. And she'd be there washing the dishes and she'd with [00:21:00] her evening gloves on, and she'd have plastic gloves over the top of her evening gloves in order to wash the dishes and stuff like that. And she'd always go her darling. As anyone especially handsome looking men might want to buy to go to the toilet. And, um she's while while while she's doing the dishes at you. She was one character I can think of. Um, a wonderful, eclectic mix of fabulous people. Really. All sorts of people came to Carmen's coffee lounge. Um, highbrows, low [00:21:30] brows and everything in between, um, everything from politicians to entertainers to, um, you know, businessmen, public servants, um, all sorts. It wasn't without its troubles from time to time. Sometimes the hut boys, as we would call them, would arrive into town for the evening to decide to go about doing a bit of queer bashing. We all front up at some point to the coffee lounge and get ready to have a bit of a rumble. Except they'd get confronted by, well, the queens we call the Big Ted, which [00:22:00] would have include Chrissy We and Gypsy and various others. Um, you know, who were big, sort of, you know, 6 ft four. It doesn't matter how much lipstick and what nice rock they've got on. I can turn back into the men they were born to be and usually thumped over these hut boys when they came in and sort of earn quite a bit of respect and never got troubled again. Um, not in that sense. And in fact, they would sort of, sort of, you know, end up becoming our protectors in lots of ways. Um, it was just sort of the way it was. Um, [00:22:30] yeah. No, it was, um, for Wellington. I guess in those days, it was quite an exotic and sort of naughty place to go to simply because. And the wonderful madam Carmen, of course. And And Carmen was, um, a fabulous hostess. Um, she always engaged with, um, with her customers and and, you know, the clientele that we there, um, sort of, you know, made you feel very personable. You know, she seemed to speak to you not just sort of past you or anything. Why [00:23:00] is making sure that you're being looked after and taken care of? She had funny little rituals about, um, you know, people are coming in there for a certain type of entertainment bedroom gymnastics, so to speak. And there were ways and means by which you could signal that you were perhaps interested in one of her girls that might be floating around by playing a little game with the tea cups. Um you know, because of course, you know, you weren't allowed. It was like I said six o'clock swell time, [00:23:30] you know, and and all of that, you know, booze wasn't allowed to be sold. I dare say. There was a little bit of the counter, um, booze going on which, um, which was where you made a few extra bucks. And, of course, if if that's a place where you can get liquor, well, you're going to get all sorts of people sort of turn up, um, uh, to to get us at that time of night when legally you weren't meant to be selling it. I, uh, Carmen gave me my first client, actually, um, when, um you know, when I first ended [00:24:00] up on the scene there. And, um and I always used to wonder how Carmen could walk into the coffee lounge. And since there was only one backdoor exit, Um, and she hadn't gone out there. How the hell she could just disappear into thin air around the place as well. It didn't take long to realise that behind one of the large, um, tapestries that were on the wall was an internal door that went to upstairs. And so the key was was that, um, a client, you know, would [00:24:30] be sorted. Um, the client would go outside and down to the alley down the alleyway to the outside door and the, um and we would whip in behind the tapestry into the internal door and meet our client in the passageway and go upstairs to do the business. Took me a while to realise how calm I could appear and disappear just like that. But that's how it used to happen. And you were saying about the the the the tea cups. There was some something to do with tea cups. [00:25:00] I can't quite remember how the routine goes, but I mean, you know, say you have a, you know, a cup and a saucer. And if you had them, which would be there when you arrived, you know, depending on what you wanted and you would either put the saucer on top of the cup or turn the cup over or have it on its side. I mean, various things. I'm not quite sure how all of that worked, but sort of understood. And whether or not that meant that you wanted you know one of those girls or whether you wanted that girl or whether you wanted [00:25:30] a bit of Carmen, strangely enough, never smoked and never drank herself. You know, it was never like that. That must have been quite fun if if for your first time, that as a as a as a customer going in there and you wouldn't necessarily know about the cups and just by putting it down No, no. And And, of course, when you're a new queen on the scene, you're at the bottom of the rung. And so and so, uh, you know, you've got all the other seniors around us [00:26:00] who sort of take precedent. But while they can be a bit nasty to you from time to time, it was all sort of. You were. You know, you knew that you were able to be comfortable in this place, you know, there were other queens like you around, and, um, and as long as you didn't step on their turf or pinch their clients or take their lives or, um, you know, or their charities or anything like that, you'd be, you know, sort of all right. And, um and [00:26:30] and she could see that you were a newbie and, you know, would sort of, uh, will be helpful, I guess by providing you with a client, because don't forget we weren't able to get the dole. We weren't able to, um, you know, get normal regular employment. So, you know, that's why you sort of tended to be forced into, um, you know, being a prostitute and, um, earning money that way. And so how do you, you know, God, I'm 16, 17 years [00:27:00] old, and I'm not that worldly yet. You know, I've got to learn very quickly, Um, as you walk into that sort of scene, and so you sort of on the one hand, you're sort of looked after and kept an eye on and cared for. On the other hand, you're not sort of multi coddled either, because you've got to shape up pretty quickly to learn the ways of the street life. So can you remember your first client? Yes, I can. Because Carmen gave him to me, Um, and sort of me with him. And that's where I found out [00:27:30] about, you know, behind the tapestry and upstairs. Um, yes. And, um and she sort of I wasn't really quite sure what I was meant to do, but, um, hated it. It was terrible. It was awful. And, um, but, you know, pop some more pills, have another drink, um, and wipe it all, you know, all of the unpleasant part of it. How would you [00:28:00] describe car? Oh, a larger than life figure, Um, fabulously hospitable. A huge amount of mana, Um, a dry wit, Um caring, generous in many respects. Um, bit of an entrepreneur, certainly. [00:28:30] APR machine. Absolutely. Once she, you know, got on to it. Um, she only started to be calm because when she started out in her entertainment career, um, she was, you know, beautiful, slim, exotic, did exotic dancing, snake dancing, things like that. Hula dancing. And, um and part of the gimmick was was that she was absolutely uns spring. But, um, you know that she wasn't sort of detected as being a tranny, [00:29:00] And, um then she was outed. Um, she was outed, I think by Wally Martin. I may stand to be corrected by that, and that was sort of a little bit devastating to her entertainment path at the time. But on the other hand, she decided to embrace it and, um and sort of really sort of fully came out. And I think the common persona as we have come to know her the larger than life the the beautiful loud gowns, the three wigs [00:29:30] and the whole you know, botanical gardens and her hair, the roses and all of that sort of stuff. Um, you know, the image came to pass and she embraced it and was like that just about all the time and became absolutely identifiable. And obviously she could see the marketing value in it all. And it was good for her business and sort of marked her out as something different from whatever else, um, was around. So in that way, she was very entrepreneurial and, uh, but had decided [00:30:00] at some point that she would just embrace that she is who she is. And it's no use trying to, um, hide it under a bushel and be a famous tranny. And, um and she was, and I think that that attitude opened an awful lot of doors way down the track for many of us in the future. Um, after that about visibility and having to tolerate. I mean, don't let [00:30:30] you know. Let's be real here. You know, it was not universally accepted at all, and the ridicule and the demeaning nature of which people would treat her and others like her. You know, these were the days when it was illegal for men to be wearing women's clothing out in public and in order to go and do your entertainment gigs, even if you were doing a drag, Um, a drag act or whatever. You could only be dressed in drag [00:31:00] at the venue you were performing. You weren't allowed to walk on the street dressed up as a woman. Um, you could be arrested for that. And you know this. This is the era when homosexuals were put in jail. Um, two years, I think, was the sentence for being, you know, and you know, So it was a very scary time, as far as that was concerned. And so for someone like car to, um, to just bite the bullet and be out and be who she is and then become sort of a, um, a figure [00:31:30] of curiosity. Yes, but also, of course, the media loved it. Um, and and because of her nature as a nice, good person. She wasn't sort of a stereotype, nasty sort of sexual deviant, as people would have thought. I mean, they would still thought she was a sexual deviant. But somehow they're bamboozled by the sheer force of her of her persona [00:32:00] and her her warmth and her hospitality. And let's not forget now that her establishments were now becoming quite part and parcel of the nightlife scene of Wellington in general. I mean, you know, and, um, the high brows and the low brows were all going there. So there was a certain amount of respectability and that any run ins with the law, um, sometimes or whether it would be her personally or whether it be some of her girls, um that might get into a spot of bother suddenly pushed the boundaries [00:32:30] of some laws that ended up being changed because they didn't know how to deal with transgender people in a legal context. It was sort of quite a, um a time of, um, realisation and change. And and, um, yeah, and not just Carmen, of course. I mean, God, we always talk about Carmen and, um, but there were others. Who contemporaries at the time the Chrissy we took, you know, the, um and all the girls that ever worked for her. Um, a lot of a lot of the girls [00:33:00] that worked for her ripped her off, too. You know, it was sort of a dollar for me. $2 for Carmen dollar for me, $2 for car. Wasn't unknown for car to sort of, You know, some queen had just come back into town and Carmen to sort of say, Oh, so I paid for your new bus job, Have I, You know, and that kind of thing. But, you know, um, so I think you know, she was exploited in that way because Carmen wasn't really very, very, um, worldly as far as finance and business and money [00:33:30] was concerned. Like I said, she was APR machine. She was a, you know, an entrepreneur in that sense. And so I think she relied on the honesty and integrity of other people not to sort of, you know, she wasn't stupid, but, uh, you know, in short, she made and lost fortunes. Really? Um, because she didn't understand, and and, um And when she did get into spots of bother sort of eminent lawyers and people in the legal and accountants and would help her out. Um, she became quite respected in her own [00:34:00] way amongst the business community of Wellington at the time. I mean, and if she did get into a spot of bother over things, you'd get lawyers like Roy, Stacey and, um, you know, various other people later on. Bob Jones, Of course. You know, um, backing her for a bit of public? Um, adulation. When she ran for the mayoralty of Wellington, which was not her idea, it was more Bob's idea. But, um yeah, um, an amazing person, really? In lots of ways. [00:34:30] How did Carmen and Chrissy get on? Oh, very well. Yes. No. Um, yes. No, no. There was no sort of, you know, fierce competition or anything like that. No, not at all. I mean, the world was too small in those days for for for that kind of thing to happen. And, um, no, I think there was, you know, they were amicable and and and friendly, and, um, they both had a compassionate streak about them. So, um, you know, that went on [00:35:00] all right, there was no particular Queen. Wars went on as far as I know. You mentioned that that Wally Martin kind of outed to How did that happen? What? What? What happened? I'm not sure exactly how it happened. Um, I think Dana Demilo would be able to answer that a little bit better, but at some point, Yeah, Um, Wally Martin, for those who need to be reminded, was I guess you'd call him a strip king of New Zealand. He and Rayon Hastie opened up the first strip clubs [00:35:30] in New Zealand and, um, in Auckland in particular. And Carmen, um, had been involved somehow up there at that time. And yeah, so I mean, Wally Martin on many, many years later, Um, I tried to open up another club down in Wellington for a while. I can't remember what it was called now, and, um, but he was sort of getting on a bit. Then I can remember in that year when he opened them, he had three heart attacks. Finally, the last one killed him. Um, [00:36:00] yeah, well, I buy Wally. Um, but yes. So I've only met him. I only met him a couple of times. myself, but, uh, but yes, that's his sort of, um, background on where he sort of fitted in. He'd been a along with Ray and Hastie. What you'd call the strip kings of, uh, New Zealand. You you said just before about three wigs with Carmen literally. Did she wear three wigs? Oh, well, at a time. [00:36:30] Well, we're in a couple of hair pieces. Yes, that wasn't unusual. We all sort of wore our hair like that. These are the days of the beehives and the up and down hairdos and, um, as much hair as possible. And, um and of course, as you know, she's famous for always, you know, doing her Billie Holiday look with the flowers and and her hair. She liked to model herself and her obviously her name. Carmen Miranda. You know, um, and, uh, and other exotic Hollywood stars, [00:37:00] you know, she liked the Marlena Dietrich. The you know, you know, all of those sort of Dolores del Rio. And, you know, that was her era, I guess. Of, um, icons that, uh, she probably aspired to when she was a little boy. Did Carmen have any other kind of business interests? She did briefly have, um, a little tea rooms at the top of, uh, Cuba Street called the Egyptian Tea Rooms. Uh, that didn't last very long. [00:37:30] She also briefly located um, Carmen's coffee lounge. When, when the lease had finished at 86 Vivian Street, she briefly had a coffee lounge upstairs in lower Cuba Street. But that was only a temporary venue. And for a while she had a curio shop selling all sorts of curios and things. Um, and that was in Plimer steps for a wee while. Um, but none of those Those businesses didn't last very long and maybe a year or so. [00:38:00] And, uh, and that was toward the end of her time, um, in New Zealand before she left to live more permanently in Australia in the early 19 eighties. In talking with a number of other people they've mentioned about, I think it was the prostitution arrest that changed the law. It was car. And was it Carol de Winter? Where, where at the time, they couldn't prosecute a man for prostitution? [00:38:30] That's right. Yes. And, uh, and with Carol Dewinter, of course, was a sex change. She was one of the early sex changes. Um, she had done. And so it presented a conundrum. Um, as far as the law was concerned, apparently at the time. And, uh, quite a, um a leading a precedent was going to be set here. Um, because they couldn't prosecute her. Yeah. Isn't it ridiculous? [00:39:00] Men couldn't be. Well, let's clarify. Prostitution was not illegal. Soliciting was, And that's how you know, um, they got caught. I don't know the details of how that case went, but it changed the law. It changed, you know, um, because they hadn't had to deal with the gender issues that come into, you know, here is Carol de Winter. Um, um, who has had reassignment surgery now and is, um, physically a woman, in that sense, but [00:39:30] legally still regarded as a male. Yeah. It does present a problem when you're trying to slap someone down for, uh, prostitution or soliciting. And, um and I'm not quite sure. Um, yeah, I'm not quite sure exactly how the case panned out, but, uh, she wasn't convicted, and I think the law ended up having to be amended. Um, and, uh, it was, uh, apparently at the time, [00:40:00] one of the things. Um, Donna de Milo mentioned when I was interviewing her, was that, um because solicitation was illegal at the time, they would have in the parlours, um, kind of saloon doors so that you could see the feet of the girl and the head of the girl. But if the girl was laying down, then the police would come and bust. And can you recall any of that? No. Well, she must have been one of the lucky ones to be working in a parlour. [00:40:30] I mean, you know, not many of us queens ever had that, um, that, uh, uh, joy. I was very lucky that I was able to work in a strip club and at the club exotic in, um, the late seventies. And that's where I worked. And while we were paid in terrible, terrible money, it was it was just terrible. Emmanuel Papadopoulos owned the nightclub, uh, owned the club exotic at the time. And, um, and our pay was just [00:41:00] dreadful. But at least we didn't have to. Queens didn't have to be on and and only one or two of us one or 23 of us were queens that were allowed to work in that club at that time. Um, it's not as if Queens got to work in strip clubs at all. The strip clubs were predominantly male, you know, um, for men, you know. So it was girls that worked in strip clubs. Um, the only queens that got to work in strip clubs and do the full on, um, stripping had to be extraordinarily [00:41:30] good looking and unring, and you to trick you did a trick strip. So even though you might have had all your you know, rod and tackle, you sure as hell had to tape it away. And, um, you know, and false up a fanny for stripping and stuff like that. You could have breast because either you had a hormone bust or, um, or you'd gone and had your bust done, had a tit job done. And, um [00:42:00] and but anyhow, for for us queens, it was sort of more like greater. You know, I could do my advertising, so to speak, on a stage and, um, drunk men in a strip club, you know, late at night. You know, it's it's you know, any port in a storm, you know, or feel the same. You know, I mean, I'm sorry to be so crude here, but, you know, a quick knee trembler in the toilet, they wouldn't have a clue. Um, you know, you know, at the end of the day, they just sort of too bamboozled over. [00:42:30] So it was a slightly safer way than having to play a trade out on the street. Um, which was, of course, a little more dangerous. Um, a lot more dangerous, Um, in many respects. And, um, on giving a cut to the boss. Um, you know? Yeah, the exploitation was horrendous, really? In lots of ways. But better to be inside a strip club on a cold, wet, windy Wellington night than stuck out on the corner trying to pick up a client [00:43:00] you mentioned, um, hormone breasts. And I'm just wondering, how easy was it to get hormones in Wellington in the fairly easy? Well, for me, it was at that time. Um, Doctor Tom on. He's dead now so I can mention his name. You can't have me up for defaming him in any kind of way. But he was a popular pill doctor as we called him. He had his um, his surgery in Willis Street. [00:43:30] And, um and many of us used to go to him, um, for to get our our hormone treatment, amongst other things. So he was sympathetic to, um, transgender require health requirements. In that sense, however, I don't recall getting much in the way of advice about what it is I was taking. I remember, you know, I got used to get, um, prescribed. Still be still be was a synthetic form of female hormone. Um, [00:44:00] which is fine. It it did the job, except it did have a long term effects down the track. I stopped taking it after a while. Um, because it, you know, sucked a lot of calcium out of your bones, made it quite brittle and things like that. Yeah, but there wasn't a lot of that. I or not to me personally, Um, a lot of advice about the whole process, Um, that I was going into It was just that he would just shout, um, our hormones, as we required them, as as [00:44:30] the treatment for want of a better term and improved. And you were able to get oestrogen injections and that kind of thing you know into the future. But, uh uh, um, hormones were not the only reasons why we went to Doctor. Oh, you know, pills, darling, You know, Duromine mandrax. Seol Typal Pippin. The cocktail of of of, um, of mind altering [00:45:00] substances that, uh, we all took at that time. I'm ashamed to say it now, but, I mean, that was part of the course, so many of us, and I don't just mean queens. I mean, you know, anyone who, um and you just go and tell him a sad sex story or whatever. And he was very gullible in that sense. And, um, you know, we used to fill out our, um when we were we were able to get on to because you couldn't get an unemployment benefit. So either you had to go [00:45:30] on to, um, if you're going to get a benefit at all, a sickness benefit and very rarely an invalid benefit. But, um, a sickness benefit might be the other one. So But even if you weren't sick, um, our condition, what do they call it these days? Gender dysphoria. I suppose they call it these days. But in my day, it was a psychosexual disorder. And so that's what they could put down on a medical certificate. And then you could get paid. Um uh, a sickness [00:46:00] benefit because you had a psychosexual disorder. Of course, none of us had any kind of psychosexual disorder. But if the silly bastards want to pay us out a benefit and you know, because they think we're a bit crazy like that, I'll take your money and, um, you know, and we did. I mean, if you're gonna put us down on the margins of society, if that's where you think we're gonna be, then we've got to survive, baby. And, um And that was part of it. And so, uh, if you were lucky enough to get a benefit [00:46:30] like that, um uh, it was a benefit like that. Then everything else was supplemented your income and don't get me wrong. It was by no means hugely generous or anything. But you know, that's what happens when you're shoved down into the margins of society. Um, because you refuse to, um to comply with what society expects of you as far as, um, you know, be the man you're supposed to be and go and get a real job. [00:47:00] You know, of course, we could do that. But, um, we are who we are and what we are. And I guess, you know, in a in A with a political tone to it, that's where you draw a line in the sand. And, um, many of us did draw that line in the sand and say, No, this is what we are. Who the hell are you to tell me to, you know, be different. You know, I mean no harm to you. Um, I can still do an honest day's work, if that's what If only you would give me the chance, But, um, [00:47:30] they didn't. Not In those days, we was the club in Exotic Club. Exotic was the corner of Vivian and Cuba Street. The building still exists. It is currently being refurbished into something else. At the moment, I don't know what it hasn't operated as a strip club for well over a 20 year, maybe 13, 15 years, 20 years. Maybe since it's been a been a strip club, it, um, until [00:48:00] recently, with this new refurbishment going on the neon sign of a naked girl, um, used to be on the corner of the building. Uh, they've taken it down. Um, while they've done this refurbishment, whether or not I don't know what the place is going to be turned into now, um, it was three or four stories high. Um, so you had street level, which, um, had a burger bar, and, um, another shop on the corner. And the strip club was up on the first floor, and [00:48:30] the other two floors were never used because, um, but not while I was there because they didn't have concrete floors. And so it wasn't safe to have, um, anything else up there No apartments or anything like that. So on on the years that I worked there, which would have been between 1976 to about 1981 82 around that time? Um, yeah, that's that's what it was there. And that's different from the club. Exotic no [00:49:00] one in the same building. But at one point it was called the club exotic, spelled differently. And then it just became and its lady is known as the club exotic. So exotic. TIQUE is as suppose to EXOT IC. Yeah. God only knows why that changed you know. And the building was owned by a famous Greek, Um, Wellington. I'll be kind and call him businessman and property owner Emmanuel [00:49:30] Papadopoulos. And what about the purple onion? You you mentioned that earlier the purple onion was on the opposite side of the road from the club. Exotic, um, down just before the corner of Marion Street and Vivian Street. Um, I don't know what occupies that space right now. No, I can't. Um, but but, um, it's gone. It's been long gone. Um, when I knew of the purple onion, it was, um, owned and run [00:50:00] by, uh, Pei and Anita Daniels, and they weren't there very long. We didn't have the place very long when I came along to work there. And when I, um, worked there, it was being leased by a butch lesbian woman called dot God only knows what her surname was, and she had a partner called Lexie. Sexy. Lexie, who was a famous stripper, um, woman stripper at at the purple [00:50:30] onion and flaming red hair. Stunning woman, really, in lots of ways. And, um, on the front, um, facade of the purple onion was a famous mural. I suppose painted by, Apparently a well known artist whose name I don't know. But he was well known at the time of a, um, blonde haired woman in a diaphanous outfit standing in front of like, a duen car with [00:51:00] three Afghan dogs on a leash. And it was sort of spread across the frontage of the, um, you know, looked very, uh, alluring, I suppose, And enticing it was what I'd call a sort of a A, um, had a sense of a of a basement feel about it, although it was straight off the street level, but it was sort of dark and intimate and small. Not huge, not large. Um, always had a fabulous portrait of Anita Daniels. Um, a beautiful [00:51:30] portrait, I think, painted by the same artist who painted the front of the building. Um, up there. I'd love to know who it is later on. Um, actually, um oh, the actress Diana Priestley and her husband, Tony Burton. Um, when they got, um, particularly Dina got interested in doing bar, and they did a wonderful series, actually, of bar on the purple onion, which included, um, some caricatures of DOT and Lexi [00:52:00] and the, um purple onion. So they're beautiful, you know, they're lovely pieces of art. How does the purple onion compare to places like the club? Exotic and and other clubs? In what way? I mean, um, they they had a different atmosphere. Um, the staging was different, but, you know, strippers are strippers, you know, And quite often [00:52:30] we used to some of the strippers used to we do spots at either club. So it wasn't like we were exclusive to one club or the other. And so we'd run across, and, um and then we'd bring traffic to a stop. So I'd finish doing a spot up at the club Exotic race down the stairs and and my bra and panties and, um and perhaps with a fabulous cape on and sort of fly across Vivian Street to get to, um, the onion to fill in and into a spot because they might have been shorter girls that night and and do that, you know. And all of this sort of added to the colour of the street. [00:53:00] I wasn't the only one that did it. A lot of them. The hole in the wall opened soon after Brian Lagro became a, um, the sixth king of Wellington. I suppose at the time, um, after dot had lost the lease on the, um, purple onion. Who? I think the building had been owned by Mark Westland. Mark and, um, at that time, um, Brian Lagro came onto the scene. Now he was a hut boy. [00:53:30] I think he'd been a builder and stuff like that. A bit of a rough edge about him, and he had been brought in, and he came with some henchmen and just walked into the Purple Club Purple Onion Club one night, uh, told dot that she was out and they were in. And, um and Brian came in, took over the club. About three weeks later, he shut it down. And at that time, me and various others who worked there sort of were out of a job there, and, uh, he later on opened the place up [00:54:00] as a peep show, actually, and also opened up the hole in the wall, which was a nightclub strip club venue, and, um, just up toward the corner of Vivian and Cuba Street. Next to what would have been Park of Ferguson, the furniture shop at the time. But actually, it's now the blue note, Um, right on the corner of Vivian Street there. And, um, the hole in the wall building is still there that I can remember. [00:54:30] And, um, yes. Brian opened that up and ran it for quite a number of years before he bought the Salvation Army building across the road. It had been the Salvation Army's secondhand clothing shop and furniture shop. Um, it was right next to the club exotic. And, um, Brian bought got hold of that building and turned it into licks. The strip club, which was there for many years. And then Brian [00:55:00] became the first strip club owner in New Zealand and certainly in Wellington to, um, be granted a liquor licence. And as soon as he was granted a liquor licence, that was a licence to print money. Essentially, um, his idea of, um, the strip world was to be class class class. He wanted a Las Vegas style beautiful girls, no queens. The only queens he ever let strip on his stage were myself and, um um, another [00:55:30] friend of mine who no longer lives in New Zealand. Um, and the vet was also excellent at doing choreography for strip shows. And, um oh, and my flatmate, Dana Dana De Paul, who made costumes. And And Brian had a very high standard of what he wanted his club to be. He wanted to be all class completely different from the other slapper shows that were around town. And that's what he was aspiring for. And when he got a licence, a liquor licence for the place that he just made a fortune [00:56:00] an absolute fortune and later on opened up, um, the White House strip club in Queen Street in Auckland and has gone on to other things. Yeah. So prior to that licence for Brian, are you saying that all the other strip clubs didn't have alcohol licences? No, I guess, but, uh, yes, I am. No, they did not have liquor licences. Doesn't mean to say there wasn't liquor. Yeah, well, it's all right now. It's all in the past, isn't it? Um, [00:56:30] yeah. No, no, no. Um and and of course, you sold your sly grog for a premium. You know, the the Boston? Yeah, stripping on stage. Now, I've had other interviews Where, um, it's been that kind of art. Rama thing where, um, Art Rama? Yes. Tell me about Oh, Well, it's just the finale. But wasn't it kind of illegal to actually move and be naked at the same time? Oh, that was way [00:57:00] before my time. You better go back to Dana to Milo about that. Um well, I mean naked. Um What? So I've got a bow, a feather strategically placed somewhere, you know, or whatever. Like that. Um, when we did Artur armour of poses, we might be topless. Yeah. No, I don't I don't remember those kinds of constraints. Um, hindering what I was doing. You're probably [00:57:30] right. There might have been some law around it, but, I mean, as if it was policed. I mean, please, the police had a lot more to to worry about than, you know, up there, Whether or not your tits are jiggling while you're doing outer armour of poses. I mean, um, in fact, I've got a clip on on the documentary about me called Georgie Girl. There's a clip that I had long long forgotten about until it appeared on this thing of me stripping up on the stage at the club exotic and, um [00:58:00] yeah, no, art of pos was usually a a finale. So everyone had gone through the the the you know, all their routines. Everyone had their go. And then at the end of it, everyone would come up on stage and just, you know, through a few tracks of music, just sort of, um, do various artistic poses. You know, I can remember. I don't know whether I should, or she won't thank me for it either. Um, there [00:58:30] was one. there was one sex change. I just called her Raylene. And, um, and Rane, unfortunately, was a terrible smack freak. And one night during Artur Armour of Pos and she used to sort of head to sit down in front of us in the centre front of the stage and she pay thing. Well, she's out of it and all of that. And one day and one night we were doing art armour of Pos, and she was so out [00:59:00] of it that she lost control of her bodily functions all over the stage and we all just left. We just left us sitting there on the stage and ran away while poor old Manuel Papadopoulos was going right off down at the what the hell, Like, clean up this mess. None of us wanted to know about it floating around. I mean, you know, it's just part of life. You dare say the audience emptied out very quickly After that, [00:59:30] we should stop for a minute. Well, I can ask I Can I ask you a question? As you do? Oh, sure, Sure. What about, um, the kind of, uh, use of language? Um, was there kind of like backslang or Pila Kind of spoken at the time? Yes. There was a AAA language. A lingo. Um, I never knew how to speak it very, very well. [01:00:00] I could sort of understand it. It was sort of a kind of, um, you know, I know. Yeah, yeah. I can't be many years since I've talked about it. Um uh, uh, talked it, but yes, it was a funny kind of, um, drag. I suppose so. That we could communicate with each other, especially when you were amongst straight people. And you wanted to pass a comment about something or other and, um, and didn't want to be understood. And, [01:00:30] um except between ourselves. So, yes, there was this funny kind of, um yeah, this funny kind of lingo, I think I must have been phasing out of my time. There would be other, uh, Donna De would she can probably speak it fluently. I mean, they invented it. Um, and it was invented. It was, um you know, it wasn't, uh, you know, something that had existed. It was just a strange form of communication to communicate things. Especially if you wanted [01:01:00] to talk about clients or or, um yeah, whatever. Kind of pigeon English. Really? Hm. When we were talking earlier about the the the the powder puff and also the sunset strip, I don't think we said where they were. Where were they? Well, when I first went to the Sunset Strip, it was in street. And, um, the building no longer exists. But [01:01:30] after this era of the Sunset Strip, I think it became marmalade recording studios for a while. And so right next door. Oh, what's there now? I'm just trying to think, um, it would have been opposite what we would call in Wellington, the World Trade Centre, as it was known then, um, in street. And I can't think what's there now. Um Maybe there's a Oh, there's a park and the cave, Um, or Ali Barbers, [01:02:00] as it was known. And the cave? Well, it was done out like a Alibaba's was done out, like, you know, Alibaba's Cave and, um and that is where the San Francisco bathhouse venue is now upstairs there in Cuba Street. And that is the venue. That's where the cave was. Of course, it looks quite different now to how it looked in my day and the days of disco and all of that sort of thing. Some of the other venues that Donna's mentioned are Matador. Did [01:02:30] you ever frequent that? No, I didn't, but I heard of it. What else? Sorrento? Um yes, The Sorrento Coffee Club. What? What was that like? I don't know. I never went there either. Those are sort of before my Yeah, no. In my time. And And I've come late into the piece. Really? You know, I'm I'm late seventies, and, um, all of those sort of places existed before, you know that that they are. They were from the cafe culture of the sixties [01:03:00] in the seventies, and Johnny Corman owned places. Um, he was a sort of a cafe nightclub person around town, you know, in in those days. And and Chris, of course, and various others. Well, see Restaurant, strangely enough, was right next door to um, the club exotic on the Cuba street frontage. That building still exists, and so it's turned into another and of course, was one of the restaurants in Wellington at the time. And it was sort of funny this juxtaposition between this sort of bawdy old strip [01:03:30] club right next door on the corner in this very fine dining restaurant known as sin. Because the restaurants of the day that I can remember the coachman, the Lotus um, Normandy with the sort of big time flash restaurants, um, in Wellington that I can remember a steakhouse called um The Town Gate, which was owned by Greeks. That was down Manor Street, Garland's restaurant in Manor Street. [01:04:00] Upstairs, they had the most fantastic, um, three course roast dinners on Sundays for some ridiculous price price, like $3. 50 or something like that. It was always a good place to go, and the green parrot, of course, was still around. Um, you know, in those days, in a different location to where it is now, but, uh, yeah, and I think the only other one that, um, Dana mentioned was the in in Auckland. [01:04:30] I never went there, but I heard of that. Yes, Um, you know, Auckland Wellington could have been two different countries. Really? As far as that that scene was concerned in those days, but yes. Oh, in Auckland. What you had? Yes, I heard of the Dora you had, um, mojo. You had, um, the Great Northern Hotel was a sort of a gay bar venue. There was all the trannies went the house, street toilets? Um, [01:05:00] um, yeah, um I. I worked in Auckland in the 19 eighties at Alfie's nightclub in Century Arcade, which was owned by, um, uh, Brett Shepherd and Tony Kavi and Tony's partner, John. Um, they owned Alfie's night club. And then there was another nightclub in Fort Street in Auckland called the staircase. Um, can't remember the names of the chaps that owned that one, but they were the two major gay night clubs in Auckland during the 19 eighties, at least. Anyhow, [01:05:30] uh, a night club was was a very popular club, and not just for gay. It was universally, you know, it was one of the nightclubs in Auckland, and I was in the bloomers show. Um, that ran there from, uh what New Year's Eve? 1984 through to I think it stopped running a show there in the early nineties. I stopped working there in 1989. Um, can you describe a for me? Alfie's nightclub in Auckland was a basement [01:06:00] nightclub, and, um, had a very small stage and dance, if you can call it a stage stage and dance floor area, um, it had booths and, um, a sort of partitioned off bar area, um, sunken bar area. Uh, for a while, it was probably quite small for a club when I think about it now, but it used to get absolutely excuse [01:06:30] me, packed out. It was very popular and gay, And when when it first got going, it had a table service and all of that kind of thing. So it was done quite classy. Other, um, establishments in Auckland at the time was Stanley's bar. Uh, Melbourne was a, um and these weren't gay bars per se, but they were we all the glitterati and the Auckland Celebrity you know, a listers and all of that would sort of go And aie became one of those [01:07:00] and and the the Staircase nightclub, just down on forth street was a much larger nightclub. The Bloomers show actually did its first shows at at, um, the staircase, and it was a two hour show, but, um, the owners didn't want to keep the show on. We were looking for a permanent residency, and that's when Brett Shepherd and Alfie came along and said, Oh, come and cut your show down to half an hour and we put her on late at night at one o'clock in the morning. And, um and that was to sort of, you know, keep [01:07:30] patrons coming on. So when bars and pubs closed at 10 o'clock, everyone had nightclubs and things and was one of those. So, yeah, I, um carpet, um what else? Alfie's. Yeah, no, it was sort of They tried to sort of be quite plush, but you can imagine bunch of guys and I pissed them out of it to make a mess. Uh, but it was very popular and, um went on for years and years and years, and I still meet people these days. Who who, um, occasionally [01:08:00] come up to me and sort of say, Oh, I remember seeing you at Alfie's, and I'd be going. And how old were you? Um and, yeah, lots of good music. And, um, and our show, which was we were probably the longest running permanent resident drag show and certainly permanent show in Auckland at that time. I mean, to have run from 1984 through to the early 19 nineties. It was quite a long run. The our only competition was a much [01:08:30] more classy straight show in, um, called Debbie Do Day. And those sort of people, um um, had that show up there, but, um, and we were very, um, in our show, we were always cutting edge. We were always doing, sort of, you know, cutting edge alternatives, you know, full on production numbers as well, as well, how much can you squeeze into half an hour? Um, but they were always sort of cutting edge. You know, the newest music out we were doing Malcolm McLaren's Madam [01:09:00] Butterfly or, um, doing, um, Starlight Express and those kinds of numbers where we'd use lots of of effects and fabulous costumes and things like that, which we made ourselves. I mean, you know, I did a lot of all of that ourselves and, um, and built up a, you know, a a great following. A lot of people remember that time. God. And that's why we called ourselves bloomers. And that's Nicole and Nicole Deval headed our troop. And Nicole, of course. [01:09:30] I mean, if you've got Carmen and Chrissie and all of them down and one and one Deval or Tinkerbell as she was originally known, um, you know, even, um Phil Warren with Nicole had, um you know, Nicole had the nightclub that they called Tinker Bell. I think she had it for a year up there that, um God, that doesn't exist anymore, either. The the venue, Um, it ended up becoming the ace of clubs. Where Diamond. What? The name was Marcus Craig, the great female impersonator [01:10:00] Entertainment. Um, work there, but yeah, Nicole had, um, was the big, big, uh, drag wise up in Auckland at the time. Um, and many. And Moos and the Auckland lay girls and all of that were big up there. So Auckland had a very vibrant and for us in Wellington. Anyone who came from Auckland was sort of wow, you know, they're from Auckland. The the big glamour queens. You know, we were just sort of, you know, the slappers down in Wellington. But, you know, that's sort [01:10:30] of how it used to be. Carmen was about the only one that sort of put us up there with things like the balcony and all of that. But Auckland was where it happened, Really? For drag entertainment. Yeah, one thing I've got to mention about, Um, when we were talking about Carmen was, uh, you mentioned Bob Jones and the the whole kind of mayoral campaign. And I saw something it was like about in 2007, where he was kind of slating her and just calling her this, you know, kind of Maori bloke from [01:11:00] up north and address. Can you recall seeing that article? I can't recall it, but I have an opinion about, um Why? I think Bob Jones and his little bunch of groupies at the time decided to get in and, um, promote Carmen for the mayor of Wellington in 1977. Prior to that, remember, he had established the New Zealand Party, which, under Muldoon bid in the 1975 [01:11:30] election or whatever it was. And, um, so I think he was wanting to make a political point and thumb his nose at local government and shake it up a bit. And so I think for purely selfish reasons and no benevolence to Carmen, I might. This is just my opinion. No benevolence to Carmen, really. Just sort of put it to her. Um, you know, we'll put you up as a candidate and we'll bankroll you and we'll come up with your platform and so on and so forth, which he did, which was probably just his way [01:12:00] of thumbing his nose at local government. And, um and, you know, creating a bit of interest like that, using Carmen as the vehicle. And And so when Carmen prides herself on, um, having made statements like, um during that election campaign that she wanted to see homosexuality reformed, um, that she wanted prostitution to be legal and, um, and other such things like that, um, I think Carmen might have wanted. Of course, she wanted those things, but it was [01:12:30] sort of Bob and them that were articulating them through the press statements and media releases and the build up and all of that sort of thing. So I believe that he used her persona to, um, grab the headlines. Of course they were grabbed. It became quite sensational. I don't know whether they realised that she did as well as she did. She I think, um, she became fourth in that election which was eventually won by Sir Michael Fowler. Um, who won the majority that year. And I think from Carmen's perspective, well, she didn't mind. Probably if she was [01:13:00] being somewhat exploited and used in that way. Because, like I said, she was a huge PR machine in her own way. And, um, any publicity is good publicity, and it was good for her business, and it was making her even more famous, and that was absolutely true. So I think at the end of the day that that sort of both worked for each other. But I do have a cynical view of why I think Bob Jones got him behind her and, um, to to do that. I mean, there was even one point where, and they decided to put a press [01:13:30] release out saying that, um, Carmen and Ron Briley were engaged to be married, you know, they were funny little sort of, you know, stories like that that would emerge. I think Roger Gesco announced that on a radio windy programme, and indeed rang up Ron Briley, who was in Sydney at the time to inform, to ask him about his pending marriage to Carmen, which was all news to Ron Briley, of course, but so you can see what I mean. Um, it was a bit of sort of tongue in cheek and, um, you know, going on there. So, um yeah, that's my [01:14:00] view of what I reckon Bob Jones was doing with that car meal. And just before you mentioned Brett Sheppard and Tony. And we haven't actually covered, um, their kind of involvement in in kind of the hospitality industry and entertainment industries in New Zealand. But they were They were big, weren't they? They were, um, they Bret owned and opened a publication [01:14:30] called Out magazine, which I may stand to be corrected, but, um, it was probably one of the first nationally distributed gay, um, media in the country at the time. They were very, um, involved with homosexual law reform in the early to mid eighties. Of course, when that happened and were great promoters and and they were able to get the message out and the campaign out through their, uh, publication, they also owned, like I said, um, Alie [01:15:00] nightclub. But they also owned a, um, a book shop, and, um, and sex toys and things like that gay orientated for gay men and stuff like that. So they were, um, gay businessmen. Um, you know who. Yes, I guess pushed boundaries in their own way at that time became very successful, Um, and probably quite wealthy through it all. And, um, and helped many, many, many gay men particularly, but men and women and [01:15:30] and queens and and all of that. They they they are, um, important. Very important to our, um, political, um, development. I think it must have been quite an interesting situation in the eighties, uh, bringing in, um, gay publications. And I'm thinking like, uh, whether it's pornography or or or whatever, because, I mean, all of that would have been I'm assuming, seen as objectionable. Yes, it was. And I don't know how they got around that and probably had to deal with various court battles. [01:16:00] Um, over that sort of stuff. Um, I mean, of course you had, uh, adult the, uh, porn. You know, I can remember the adult film Theatre in Queen Street in Auckland for quite a while. Um, and, yes, gay stuff was sort of very, very, uh, closeted. I think they were. They had a shop in ANZAC Ave. Which is where they had, um, the out book shop [01:16:30] for quite a while. But then they opened up branches and had their, um, stuff distributed. You know, Wellington, I think Possibly Christchurch. Certainly. The out magazine, um, went out and then they had, um, travel desk, which was, um, you know, a travel agency. But, um, to help promote gay friendly travel, I guess, um, ends to, I guess spend your pink dollar with us, you know, kind of thing. And, um, [01:17:00] you know, all sorts of, uh, initiatives that they they took to support the gay community. Mm. Are there any other venues that we haven't talked about that you'd like to mention? We have mentioned Kay Road in Auckland, I suppose. Uh, but the roads kay road. I mean, it always has been that way, but, um, there were two fabulous lesbian women Adele and Leslie [01:17:30] who owned Clowns restaurant, which is a fabulous restaurant up on Kay Road. Um, frequented by anybody and everybody. It was a restaurant. Um, I think, actually, the Kai Bar is now where that venue was, and that's sort of now a sort of drag restaurant show. Um, there's been another drag show up on Cairo Garden. Now, the name of that escaped me to family bar. All of those bars and things [01:18:00] like that up there. It's sort of neither here nor there now, about, um, about having gay venues or specifically gay venues. And when I say gay venues, they weren't exclusive to gays. Of course. I mean, anybody could go to them, but they were known that they were going to be gay, you know, owned and run and and frequented by gay people or gay friendly people. And, uh, and anyone else who wanted to come along. Well, that's fine. But you're on our turf and and you won't be telling us to to, [01:18:30] um, tone down or anything like that. Mhm. Just wrapping up. I'm wondering if we can go back through all of those venues. And could you just tell me just a a brief idea of what you were doing in each venue? Mhm. So the Royal Oak. What were you doing there? Well, I did have a part time job briefly as a night porter at the Royal Oak Hotel. Otherwise, I just frequented it as a, um, as a bar to go to the tavern bar and the [01:19:00] bistro bar. Uh, Cummins balcony. I never worked there, but I went there to see the shows there sometimes. So I was a client there and, uh, her international coffee lounge. Oh, yes, I went there. It was just a venue where we where we could go out. And And I would, uh, get clients from there. Sometimes he met at all. No, I never went there. The powder? No, I never went there. It's a powder puff, [01:19:30] isn't it? But everyone called it the puff. Yes. Um, the and the Sorento coffee bar? No, I never went to them and club exotic. Yes. I worked at the club exotic initially as a comedian. And then I became a stripper there, and that's Also the club exotic? Yes, The one on the same. Yes, at the purple Onion. I was a stripper there. And the hole [01:20:00] in the wall? Oh, it was just a venue that I would attend. I never worked there, but, um, yes, it was just another club that, uh, we went to.

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TITLE: Georgina Beyer - people remembered
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VOICES: Georgina Beyer
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; Anand Satyanand; Aotearoa New Zealand; Barack Obama; Blue Diamond Society; Brian Neeson; Carterton; Catherine Tizard; Charles - Prince of Wales; Commonwealth Parliamentary Association; Copenhagen; Denmark; Edmund Hillary; Gay Lynn (Grey Lynn); Georgie Girl (2001); Georgina Beyer; Governor-General of New Zealand; Graham Norton; HIV / AIDS; Hansard; Helen Clark; Howard Morrison; Iran; Jeanette Fitzsimons; Jenny Shipley; Jerry Hall; Jim Bolger; Joan Bolger; John Banks; Kobe (Japan); Lady June Hillary; London; Lucy Lawless; Madrid; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Malvina Major; Maramena Roderick; Mayor of Carterton; Member of Parliament; Michael Hardie Boys; Montreal; Myra Thomas; National Party; Nepal; New Zealand Womans Weekly; Parliament buildings; Peter Dunne; Pinky Agnew; Prince Andrew - Duke of York; Prince Edward - Earl of Wessex; Prince Philip - Duke of Edinburgh; Queen Elizabeth II; Radio Pacific; Ronnie Wood; Roseanne Barr; Ruby Wax; Ruby's Round Table (tv); Russia; Sam Neill; Scott Kennedy; Silvia Cartwright; Spain; Sue Bradford; Sunil Pant; TVNZ (Television New Zealand); Tony Ryall; Toronto; United Kingdom; United Nations; United States of America; Vladimir Luxuria; Wairarapa; Wellington; Westpac Stadium; World Outgames (2009); advocate; civil unions; clothing; comedy; conservative; death penalty; equality; fax; film festival; gay; hand movements; homophobia; human rights; inspiration; interviewing; jewellery; lesbian; mayor; media; opportunity; punitive law; queen; rural; talk back; tangata whenua; third gender; transcript online; transexual; transgender; transphobia; underprivileged
DATE: 27 January 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Georgina, you're you're famous and inspirational yourself. And I'm wondering, do you have people in your career that you've met that are either famous inspirational or or people that you just absolutely just remember for, you know, other reasons that that you want to talk about. Oh, well, I can talk about sort of some famous people that I've I've met or, um, very high profile me, you know? Well, you can't help it sometimes in [00:00:30] in the world that you move in. I mean from the entertainment industry or whether it's in the political sphere. But, you know, the queen, um, who I've met several times, Um, as a when I was mayor of Carterton was the first time I met the queen in, um 1995 and came out with my famous quip on my remarking to Mrs Bulger, the prime Minister's wife of the day, who said to me, I see you've just been introduced to the queen, and I said, [00:01:00] Yeah, she's the first real queen I've ever met. And, um, that sort of ended up as a headline the next day in the newspaper or something. And and then in 2000 and, um and And in 2000, when I was, um, part of a parliamentary delegation to the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association conference and, um, which was being hosted in London and in Edinburgh that year. And I was, um and I met her again there, and, [00:01:30] uh and she remembered me because on our first meeting, when I'd been mayor of CARTERTON, she had recognised the name Carter. And there's a carterton in Oxfordshire, in England and nearby as an Air Force base. And she and the family fly in and out of there from time to time. Um, so we had this sort of Oh, yes. Well, we're gonna have a sister city relationship with in the UK and so on and so forth. And then, um, the last time I met the Queen [00:02:00] was, um, in 2002 on her Golden Jubilee tour and, uh, world tour that she was making, and she came to New Zealand. And I, for whatever reason, found myself in the official receiving line out at the airport when she first arrived. Um, Sylvia Cartwright was our governor general then, and I think Jim Anderton stood in as Deputy Prime Minister. Um, that day, Uh, for Helen, And I was there as not only a member [00:02:30] of the government, but, um because I'm to Wellington and I was there with the little Maori group. That was, in fact, a relative had rung up and sort of said, Oh, Uncle, such and such can't make it. And you're in the government and you come out to the airport and there I was. And, um, and the queen and I, um, met sort of quite publicly there. In fact, that photograph over there was that meeting and, um, the press pack that arrived with her that day, um, on on the plane and Prince Philip [00:03:00] was with her. Um, when it got to her and I shaking hands and meeting, you know, pictures were taken and and of course, that news went around the world instantaneously. And it was front pages of all the British newspapers the next day with funny headlines like by George, It's the queen, you know, and stuff like that. And it was all sort of quite heart lighthearted and and nice. Uh, two days later, we have a state luncheon or state dinner at Parliament at the beehive for, [00:03:30] uh, for the Queen and Prince Philip. And Helen got abs. Helen Clark got absolutely ridiculed because she wore evening trousers to the state dinner rather than a formal dress or whatever like that. And she got absolutely ridiculed in the British newspapers for that. And I got all this good PR, um you know, for, um, me and the queen meeting and just on the likely more serious side of that, the queen is aware of everyone she's going to meet in an official receiving line, especially [00:04:00] when she first arrives in a country. And so she's made aware, um, by her minders and help us, you know, who's gonna be in the receiving line and she's being as she's being escorted down. If anyone had expressed to her that I was going to be there and the potential for some possible embarrassment because this is the world's first transsexual member of parliament is going to be in the receiving line, you might want to avoid, you know, in case there's some funny photos of Well, that didn't happen. [00:04:30] And of course we were fine and because we had met before, Um, and that speaks volumes to me of someone like the queen that I don't know whether or not she would have made a conscious decision to sort of think. Well, what? Um, half the staff in Buck House must be gay. You know, What would I be worried about? Um, necessarily. And that sort of was good. So the queen I've met, um, Prince Edward and Prince Andrew and Prince Charles. [00:05:00] So that sort of takes care of the British royal family. Oh, and of course, yes. I did meet the Duke of Edinburgh, but, I mean, he's a homophobe from way back. And, um and I must admit his hello to me at that 2002. Arrival in New Zealand was brief and Curt and he couldn't get away from me quick enough. Um, so that was that. But who cares? He's nearly dead. Um, and, um gosh, who else have I met? [00:05:30] Oh, Ruby Wax. Jerry Hall. Graham Norton. I met them on a visit to the UK in 2002 and doing a TV programme with Ruby wax. Um, some of our own New Zealanders, I think I've always I was always pleased to meet, you know, Howard Morrison, Ed Hillary, sir Ed Hillary, who I've met on several occasions. Wonderful, wonderful man and always very hospitable with me. I think I met him when I was mayor [00:06:00] of and, um and certainly when I was an MP. And in fact, I've got some photos of me and him and Lady Hillary, um, together at a function. We were all a big showcase thing that was happening at the Westpac Stadium in Wellington a few years back. Uh, Howard Morrison. Sam. Neil, Um, Melvin a major. Um God, if I try to remember all of the, you know, they're all fabulous people, [00:06:30] and I'm always humbled to have, you know, ever been able to be in the same room with them. You know, politicians. I mean, gosh, um, you know Jenny Shipley, Lucy Lawless. Um, I'm just looking at the cover of, um, the woman's weekly that I was in the other week. Um, then you've got people like John Banks. I Well, uh, yes. I hardly put them in the I admire, um, column or anything like that. Well, how how How do you deal with somebody? Like, you know, I'm thinking like, John Banks [00:07:00] and maybe some of the conservative MP S in parliament as any queen would expect me to behave with them. Um, the first time I ever physically met John Banks, I was mayor of CARTERTON. He was a national party minister in the national government of the 19 nineties. And, um, it may not be widely known to many people, [00:07:30] but John Banks has a history in CARTERTON. His parents and family were from carterton. And indeed, he, um, lived there as a child. Um, I think for some time, and he had a school teacher called Myra Thomas, um, who lived just down the road from me and Carter. And one day I'm walking home from my mayoral office and I'm going home and I'm walking past Myra's in front of Myra's house. And who the hell should have just pulled up in her front lawn? But John [00:08:00] Banks and John had gone to visit her, and I walk past and says, Huh, Mr Banks, what are you doing in my town? I sort of said to him, Oh, you know, So it was all lovely and jovial, and I'd say this because he also did a, um, Radio Pacific talkback show. And on occasions he had me on and would try to ridicule me and run me down and be, you know, mean and nasty And, you know, and that kind of thing, you know, on the radio, I used to give as good as I got. [00:08:30] I must admit, now, here he was face to face with me, so that was sort of a bit funny. Um, otherwise, I've had nothing to do with John Banks at all until oh, actually, this year, some time, And I was visiting Parliament, and, um, I was getting on a lift at in Bowen house and, um, who should hop into the lift. But Peter Dunn, who I know, and he's my local MP currently at the moment anyhow. And John Banks. So it's just the three of us in the lift. And I go, Ah, Mr Banks. Georgina. I remember me [00:09:00] and he looked at me as though, you know, if his ass could get any tighter, you know, he thought like I was going to do something, you know, whatever to him. He just looked absolutely perplexed and couldn't say a word. Oh, hello. Um, you know, like that and couldn't wait to get to his floor so that he could get out. But, um, I get comfort out of their discomfort. Put it that way because it's their problem, not mine. Get over it, baby. And I think the other thing too is that you know, when you're in parliament and a politician and, you know, parliamentarian was sort of equals [00:09:30] in lots of ways. I mean, you know, I might be who I am with my back story, and he might be who he is with his back story. But in Parliament, you know, you're an MP. Well, I've been one too, so that's not so great of it, you know, Um, so what's the difference there? Um, who else? Brian Neeson was another MP who was sort of always seemed to be offended that I breathed the same air as they did. And I can remember. One day we were passing each other in the underground escalators [00:10:00] under the beehive, which go under the beehive and across to Bowen house. I was going down and he was coming up down one side. And whenever he used to come past me, I'd get this grim look and he'd sort of go flush on the cheeks a little bit, sort of, you know, outraged that I was, you know, sort of there. And one day I just check And I said, Look, Brian, why don't you get that heated roller out of your arse and lighten up a bit? Well, he just about went optic, everything like that. And everyone who was an earshot around me who [00:10:30] heard it just absolutely cracked up and see. I could get away with that sort of stuff and everybody would sort of like it. And, um, I remember once in the chamber Tony Ryle, um, who was wearing colourful ties and shirts and sort of mismatched with his nicely tailored suits and things like that. And he was one for great guest gestation in the chamber while he was giving a speech. And one day and one day he's giving a great and passionate [00:11:00] speech about something, and he's in opposition. Um, you know, at the time of throwing his hands around like that and just straight out of my mouth at one particular point, I just I just threw my hands in there. I went Oh, girlfriend. Right. I just heckled that across the chamber and you know, he's he just brought him it completely interrupted his flow and he wasn't expecting it. And I think he was trying to analyse whether or not he could take a point of order and ask me to withdraw and apologise. But, you know, somebody saying girlfriend and [00:11:30] heckling that across the chamber is an intervention. And of course, if he'd said anything if he had actually stopped and, um and replied to me or anything like that, it would have been noted in the hand. So the so it would have read in the hand side that he's talking away, talking away, talking away, and then suddenly girlfriend comes out across the chamber and then he reacts to it. And so I have my I have my fun [00:12:00] sometimes, you know, um, as far as that was concerned. But I have to say, generally, I, I I received, um, respect from most people. I mean, if people had adverse feelings about me or people like me or anything like that, they, by and large kept it to themselves were never foolish enough to use it as a personal attack at any time in the house or in any debates or anything like that, because it just wouldn't be worth doing it. And I'd end up looking much better than they would [00:12:30] if they were going to do that sort of thing. And I didn't promulgate it either. You know, I didn't sort of use it as some kind of mechanism other than when you yell out. Well, it was boring in the chamber that day. What else? Our girlfriend. You just sort of. It was like Pinky Agnew came to the chamber one day and she says to me after she said, God, I never thought I would have run in our parliament and see a member sitting down there wearing feathers and a bit of sequin in the chamber because I happen to have this top that had a bit of feather and sometimes a bit of twinkle, [00:13:00] you know, in there. And, you know, because usually people dress down and very conservative, I thought, Oh, no, damn it. You know, add a bit of glam, you know, to the chamber. And I could do that and and get away with it, I suppose. And it was within the dress code, you know, there was you know, it wasn't Didn't look like Jeanette FitzSimons, you know, Didn't have a bad hair do like said Bradford. But, um, what about, um, favourite interviews that you mentioned that you were interviewed by what, [00:13:30] Um, Ruby Wax. Ruby wax? Yes. Um, I went to London to represent Parliament at the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association conference as part of a New Zealand delegation, but that was in 2000. But in late 1999 Ruby Wax had been in New Zealand doing a, um, a comedy concert, um, thing. And she had a show in Wellington at the Saint James Theatre. And, um, I, along with Malcolm Vaughan and his partner Scottie, and one or two [00:14:00] others had been asked to judge a ruby wax look alike competition. And, uh, the winner would be announced. And the prize presented, um, after Ruby's first show, and that's exactly what happened. And, uh, we met Ruby Wax and Ruby Wax was fascinated by me. And so she gave me her telephone number, and I thought, You're right. Like, you know, I could just phone you up or anything. However, it's pretty telling when I tell you that I kept [00:14:30] the telephone number just in case. If I happen to be, you know, somewhere. And then, as it turned out a few months later, there I am in London. Um, and it's part of this delegation. And I had the phone number, and so I rang it, and it was her private home phone number, so she was serious. And long story short. She said, Oh, thank God you're here, and I'd love you to Come on. She has a chat show called Ruby's Round Table, or she did at that time. And, um, she wanted me to come and be a guest on it. Um, [00:15:00] my conference ended its London, um, a leg of the, uh conference, and we relocated to Edinburgh. And the day after we arrived there, I had to fly back down to London to go and do this, um, interview with Ruby and I, um, went flew back down. Now we had a TV NZ reporter called Mina Roderick, who was covering, Um, you know, European news for TV NZ [00:15:30] there, And, uh, we'd run into her at a function at the Australian Embassy, and, um, she was covering what? The New Zealand delegation of the conference blah were doing. And I mentioned to her that I was coming back to do this interview with Ruby Wax. So she was very keen on getting a bit of that. And so was there at Heathrow Airport to, um, catch up with me. When I arrived back down to go to the BBC, I was met by a, um, a minder person, And then I was shown to this limousine. I was given all [00:16:00] the red carpet treatment was very sort of impressed with all of this, and she jumps in the car with me and off we go to Shepherd's Bush, the TV Studios, and arrive in there and whisked in. And then Ruby and I are sitting in the makeup room and Graham Norton was also on the show and he, um, arrived. I didn't know him then and nor did New Zealand. Really. His show hadn't started playing in New Zealand. Now, of course, he's very famous now, Um, here. So he was, um, going to be part of the show and, um, Jerry [00:16:30] Hall and I was absolutely, you know, star struck when Jerry Hall I realised it was Jerry Hall that was going to be there. And we were sitting next to each other throughout the two hours of this thing that we were doing and in the makeup room, comparing to jobs and all that sort of stuff that we were doing together. And, um And in fact, at the end of the whole, um, record for the, um for the roundtable chatty thing, she said to me, Jerry all said to me, She says, Oh, you know, why don't you come out [00:17:00] with me tonight? You know, I've got this fabulous Ron was opening a new bar, such and such and thing you know, why don't you come along and I was torn between Oh, my God, Yes, please. I would love to go, um, to something like that, torn between that and my duty to New Zealand, which was to return to the conference, of course in Edinburgh. Unfortunately, I chose the latter. I wished I'd gone to that bloody do. I mean, what was another day out of the conference? You know, the PR [00:17:30] for New Zealand would have been much greater if I had gone to the opening of Ron Wood's new bar and restaurant or whatever it was with all the glitterati. No doubt that would be there. But no, it didn't come to Perth. So that was That was wonderful. Um um, in stark contrast to my encounter with, um with the Roseanne bar, we we never actually physically met, but we met via technology on a video link. Um, she wanted me to come on her show as [00:18:00] a guest, so I beamed in from New Zealand. But it turned out to be an absolute nightmare, uh, for me, and she just ridiculed me. And I felt horrible after doing that and wished I'd never participated in it and was dreading that it was going to show in New Zealand at some time, because, um, you know I? I was newly elected to parliament, so I behaved myself, and I just sort of took the, um the insults that were flying from her and the innuendo that was [00:18:30] flying from her, um, things like, um, you know, So this is the world's first transsexual member of parliament. Well, I don't think it's fair that you should be able to, because you don't have to have periods and you don't have to have Children. And she went on and on, like this. And And I sort of sat there, and my only retort was, Well, you could become a lesbian, Roseanne, Um, you know, but, um, to a live audience that she was in front of in, um in Los Angeles or where [00:19:00] she was located. I was in a in a Wellington building, um, here. And like I said, we were doing a video link thing, and I felt terrible. And we did that on a Saturday. And on Monday morning, I turn up at my office at Parliament and this fax arrives, remember, faxes and this fax arrives and, um saying, Oh, could I please sign this release form now? I had already signed a release form. What I didn't [00:19:30] realise was the release form I had signed was release for still photography. This release form was for the interview, and I seized my chance, and I went Oh, no way am I going to be signing this? And I wrote a, um uh, facts back, um, to her and, um and said, I want you to remove all you know, all of my interview. I don't want to be on your programme. Take [00:20:00] it off. I do not release permission for me to be on it. Take it out. Take it out. And they said, Oh, you can't do that. You can't do that. And I said, Well, yes, I can. I just have. And I haven't signed a release form. And if you don't comply with my wishes on this and just remove me entirely from your TV programme, um, I'll sue you for millions and, um, left it at that. And I think a few days later I had to go to, um Australia. And would you believe they followed me That they found me in Australia and rang [00:20:30] me up. Please. But I hurry up and sign this release form and send it back. They had to put this programme to air shortly, blah, blah, blah and all this sort of thing. I mean, no, no, no, no, no. She was furious. I won in the end, and, um and there was no nothing of me on this particular programme. So few was I pleased. Yes, I was a nasty piece of work that bitches other famous people I don't know. Um, [00:21:00] a lot of our I've met a few of our governor generals now, um, quite amazing people in their own particular ways. Um, they aren't terribly interesting, are they? Dame Keith was probably our first governor general, and she was the one who introduced me to the queen for the first time. And, um, Dame Keith, Sylvia Cartwright, and, um and, uh, some Michael Hardy boys. And people like that. Yeah, yeah, no. [00:21:30] And now I'm just name dropping. And that's what it ends up sounding like half the time. Um, the world's second transsexual to be elected to a parliament of Vladimir Lauria. It was That was quite a historic meeting that her and I had at a, um, at a gay conference at the Mexican Parliament. Um, a few years ago. Unfortunately, she was only in parliament for about nine months. She was in the government that did not last very long in Italy. They seem to roll [00:22:00] over every other day, um, over there. And, uh but it doesn't take away from the fact that she was the second a chap called Sunil Babu Pant, who was one of Nepal's first out gay members of parliament. And after I had finished my time in parliament, he and I met up at a, um at a uh oh, the out games conference in Copenhagen. [00:22:30] And there he asked me if I would come to Nepal, uh, to help him because he was part of, um, a committee that was drafting the new constitution over there. And what I come over because they were looking at the human rights chapter of the Constitution. And, um, would I come over to a talk with that committee about, you know, since I was elected in New Zealand and some of the other things that were civil unions [00:23:00] and other law and things like that that we've done here and given my own sort of track record and stuff and what I go over and sort of make a wee contribution to that, uh, that was remarkable. I did go there. I met the president, the prime minister, the all of the government at the time, um, to sort of lobby, I suppose, to have, um, uh, human rights or some aspects of human rights that well, in fact, what they've included to be a first in the world over there is uh, um uh, rights of equality and human [00:23:30] rights. for what they call the third sex, Um, in their draught constitution over there. So I provided them with a few words. So I've got a little bit of an input into the new draught constitution. Um, that was quite a remarkable trip. Um, and so very brave. He has an amazing sort of NGO that he called the Blue Diamond Society, I think. And, um, he's visited New Zealand as a guest here from time to time. Um, over the last few years, I haven't been in touch with him recently, and I'm not sure if he's [00:24:00] still in, uh in Parliament over there, but that was an interesting, um, opportunity. I mean, other than just people, I think the opportunities I've had, um, just through being an elected member in the New Zealand parliament with the distinction of being transsexual, has opened up doors to to other conferences of international human rights, whether [00:24:30] it be United Nations or HIV conferences. I've been to Kobe. I've been to Montreal and Toronto. I've I've helped numerous other, um, gay organisations around the world with fundraising things where I might have been over there to, you know, to do things, but I didn't. You don't realise until you know, you go to these things and you're asked to do keynote addresses and things like that and you tell your story and you tell your, um experience [00:25:00] and and some of their philosophies and opinions on things like that and that it it It has a huge amount of significance for the audience and for the people who are listening. And I've sat on panels where I've been amongst gay and lesbian, and I've been the only transgender, you know, politician, um, sitting there on these panels and it's quite interesting whether they're gay or lesbian or [00:25:30] transgender, I guess. But it's interesting that our stories have have similarities about how we got to be where we are and the challenges that we faced in getting there, or the reactions or the whatever and that there's a whole audience of, um, LGBTI and others who are very keen and interested to pick our brains on how we might have navigated our way through, because it's about sharing [00:26:00] our experience so that others who are aspiring to get there, but because they might live in jurisdictions where their regimes are far more punitive it's far more difficult or, um, just, you know, take the United States the so called land of the free. And yet, um, you know, really, until Obama and his recent utterances has sort of enforced that, you know, gay, equal rights and human rights and stuff, Um, you've got this mishmash of states that do and states that don't, [00:26:30] um And then you've got this horrible juxtaposition of of of Russia at the moment that are creating laws to be even more punitive. I mean, for some gay communities around the world, uh, take Iran. That's still the death penalty. Um, you know, um, but in others, you know they're seeing the light or there are these debates going over same sex marriage, you know, we're up to there, but in other countries, they're still just trying to get on the first rung. And and so it's incumbent [00:27:00] upon those of us that have had the chances and opportunities Gay, lesbian, You know, the LGBTI communities who have been able to politically make it somewhere to share what we what they think what value we have to offer. And so some of the most inspirational people I've met have been the underprivileged LGBTI community people who might have come across and met Who, um, let's take. I visited Madrid once [00:27:30] in Spain to, um it was actually to help promote, uh, Georgie Girl, Uh, a documentary. And while I was there, I had arranged that I would also go and meet a delegation of Spanish politicians and MP S. But the local transgender group in Madrid, um, who were also part of the national organisation, that they have, uh, met up with me at the screening of the Georgie Girl film, which was a part [00:28:00] of a gay film festival they were having in in in Madrid, you know, at the time. And so I spent some time with them and they were talking to me about how they just cannot make any headway with any political, um, support or lobbying or whatever in their parliament and their politicians that they have never been able to get a face to face meeting with any MP S or or engage with parliament or anything like that at all. Um, and they and they wanted to know from me, you know, how do I think they should be able to [00:28:30] do it. And I said, Well, actually, I'm going to the parliament tomorrow. I said, why don't you come with me? And they looked at me like I was mad or something. I said, not all of you get three of you Come with me. And so three of them came with me. They were still suspicious about what was going to happen. I arrived at the parliament. It was a big news thing that I was turning up at the parliament and I had to go through the paparazzi and all this sort of thing. And then I was formally met this corridor, you know, with [00:29:00] these 10 MP S that I was meeting with, and they met in photos of the media and all this sort of thing, and these queens were with me, you know, the whole way. And then we get into this room for this meeting that we're having. And so we're all seated down at the table. And these three, Spanish, um, queens are with me, and, um, the introductions are made et cetera, et cetera. And I said, Look, I'd like to forfeit, um, five minutes of my time with you to [00:29:30] these transgender people, And would that be OK? And it was OK, and I said, There's five minutes go for it And they they introduced themselves, handed around their business cards, um, exchanged cards with the with the MP S that were sitting there, um managed to get, um, a commitment for them to be seen, you know, later on, at some further the day to make an appointment and all of that. And that was that. And then I carried [00:30:00] on with my meeting with them and all of that sort of thing. Afterwards, they all broke down and howled and cried and were in disbelief that this had just happened. They said that in one fell swoop I had achieved for them what they had taken them a long years, almost to ever get that close, even to get anywhere near that, um, you know, the seat of power and that I'd taken care of it for them just like that. And, um, like that. And I said, Well, [00:30:30] no big deal. I said, uh, what else should I do? I said the opportunity was there. I've I've done nothing except make an introduction and used an opportunity that I had. It's no skin off my nose, but to them it meant the world. And of course, it was the beginning of an establishing some relationship and rapport with some MP S in that parliament for that particular group. And, uh, which they, you know, treated like [00:31:00] gold. They gave me a beautiful gift when I left. Um um, of, uh, Sorosky jewellery. Um, Millennium Edition. You know, one off a Millennium Edition Beautiful pendant. I still have it. And just they wanted to show their appreciation. And that's what I mean by sometimes rather than meeting people and famous this and that and movers and shakers, it's those kinds of things that are more inspirational. And you sort of think that whatever I might have achieved [00:31:30] and whatever I might have done, it can transfer into helping other people. If you if you give it the you know, the opportunity and that, actually, it's it's a responsibility that I have, Even though I'm out of politics, even though nobody here in this country seems to give a shit about what I want to do or anything or anything like that that out there it still matters and no one can ever take away from. You know, the fact that, um, this country and me on that little [00:32:00] microcosm of life, um, we were first in the world, and that inspired many others of us out there to that, that it's possible. And we did that. New Zealand did that. And, um and it's just helped to feed through, embolden and keep active, um, and motivated others out there who are way less fortunate than you or I. We think we have hard times and that we fight our battles. Oh, honey, [00:32:30] it's nothing compared to some countries around the world who will never know the justice that we know. And, um and it's our responsibility, actually, in a civilised country and world to make sure we can do what we can and share what we can to help uplift them so that they are up with us. You know, our life ain't so bad after all, at the end of the day, um, compared to others, so that's been an inspiration. And, um, you know, [00:33:00] and to think that I had that little piece that I can you know that I given to the world, and, um, and the little old wire rapper, the little old conservative right wing wire rapper. Did that look overlooked at and you see? And that's inspirational in itself. Um, there's me and my back story and there's me and and my abilities and all of that sort of thing. But none of it would have happened [00:33:30] if it hadn't been for a rural conservative area. And it needed to be that not gay, you know, not downtown CBD Wellington, not, you know, some beautiful, leafy middle class, liberal suburb, No rural, conservative New Zealand who are able to overlook any of my, you know, mistakes of the past or whatever like that take me at face value [00:34:00] and mutually, you know, honest about, you know, nothing hidden. No surprises. And all of that Who said Yeah, we think we can trust you to be a good advocate for us, a good representative for us and, um, you know and give you the chance and put you into these positions, and that's who put me there, and that's that's a That's a fantastic story. And if you can transfer that to other areas where [00:34:30] you think against all odds, against all the odds Well, think again. It could. It could happen, but it comes down to, I think, The other day, when we were talking, you talked about five things that I it was funny as you read them back to me and and as you were going and I was going, Yes, I still stand And yes, they, you know, be upfront and honest. You know, don't hide anything, you know, Be out there, face the challenges and all. Yeah, I do. It's been a reasonable mantra to live by.

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TITLE: Georgina Beyer - significant legislation
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VOICES: Georgina Beyer
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 2000s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Ashraf Choudhary; Auckland; Bob McCoskrie; Brian Tamaki; Catherine Healy; Civil Union Act (2004); Clayton Cosgrove; Conservative Christianity; Destiny Church; Dover Samuels; Enough is Enough (2004, Destiny Church rally); Europe; Exclusive Brethren; Foreshore and Seabed Act (2004); Foreshore and seabed hikoi; Garth McVicar; General election; Georgina Beyer; Green Party; HIV / AIDS; Helen Clark; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Hunters Corner; John Tamihere; Larry Baldock; Louisa Wall; Luamanuvao Winnie Laban; Mama Tere Strickland; Manchester Street; Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) Act 2011; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Maxim Institute; Melissa Farley; Member of Parliament; Michael Cullen; Murray Smith; Māori; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; National Council of Women; New Zealand Labour Party; Nuremberg Rally; Parliament buildings; Peter Dunne; Prostitution Reform Act (2003); Ross Robertson; STI; Sweden; Tariana Turia; Te Paati Māori; Tim Barnett; United Future; Wairarapa; Wellington; abuse; advocacy; attitude; church; civil unions; complacency; condoms; conscience vote; criminalisation; decriminalisation; equality; exploitation; family values; health; health care; homosexual law reform; justice; marriage equality; massage parlour; pimping; police; politics; religion; safe sex; select committee; sex industry; sex work; ship girl; ships; social attitudes; social engineering; societal attitudes; solicitation; transcript online; transgender
DATE: 27 January 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Right. My name is Georgina Beyer. And in the, um, mid to late 19 seventies through to the early 19 eighties, uh, prostitution was part of how I earned my income. Amongst other things, uh, prostitution in those days was, um, a dangerous game, mainly practised, of course, by women. Um, working out of massage parlours, as they were called. There weren't very many girls [00:00:30] that plied their trade on the street. That was normally the preserve of, um, the drag queen scene. Um, the street walker scene. Occasionally there were some straight girls, and that that would be around there. And, of course, um, the ship girls. And that could either be straight girls or queens, actually, who would also service the, uh, carnal needs of, um, sailors, you know, on fishing vessels, merchant navy vessels [00:01:00] and stuff like that that would come into the port in Wellington at the time. It was it was a, um, a hard and dangerous and pretty unsavoury kind of, um, vocation to be involved with at that time. Um, always open to a lot of abuse. Um, the onus was always on the sex worker. Um, there was never any culpability [00:01:30] on behalf of the client. A lot of abuse, a lot of exploitation, a lot of, um, criminal elements. Who would, uh um, pimping I'm talking about, um, really like that, particularly for girls, um, who were under duress, as far as that was concerned. And, um, money was OK, I suppose. But, um, yeah, it was exploitative. And somebody, [00:02:00] especially from within parlours and things like that would be there to clip the ticket, so to speak, from the clients that you had, there was no protection. Um, certainly not when it came to condoms or anything like that. This was pre the advent of HIV and a I, I suppose. And, um And like I say, there was a lot of abuse that could go on, um, clients on sex workers, um, sex workers amongst each other, their pimps and their [00:02:30] minders and, um, a lot of exploitation in that regard. And there was nowhere you could go to get any kind of, um, support or or justice or whatever, because it was, of course, considered morally corrupt. And, um, it was illegal. Prostitution per se was not illegal, but soliciting was so you could say in a parlour be found with extraordinary amounts, you know, especially in the eighties and nineties [00:03:00] even, um, you know, with great supplies of condoms and suggestions that there might be more than just massage going on in a massage parlour. And, um and that sometimes could be an excuse for the police to arrest you and take you away and process you, Um, yeah, for those sorts of things. So it was very unfair. And then fast forward to the early two thousands, and you find yourself in parliament. [00:03:30] And this bill comes before parliament, which is the prostitution reform bill, the Prostitution Reform Act as it is now. But Bill, as it was then, was a member's bill, uh, promoted by Tim Barnett, who was a Labour um, MP and the then, uh, Helen Clark Labour led government. And so it was a private members bill, not a government bill. And, um, essentially, it was seeking to address [00:04:00] the injustices that exist within the sex industry. And for the sex workers. It was also a huge health and safety issue. Um, because, you know, the oldest profession in the world, um STIs STD S Um HIV, um, all of those kinds of things were, you know, very, um, prominent. As far as being health issues, occupational health and safety was [00:04:30] a major force behind, um, behind it. And also, um, the bill promulgated the idea that instead of being, um, punitive, which is where you would think people would mainly mainly go that we should perhaps look at it differently to address the issue and provide a fairness and equity and, uh, some rights, um, for the sex working industry. And, um and I guess [00:05:00] in a sort of a nutshell is, is is what the prostitution reform Act was about because it was hugely controversial. Um, you know, the mainly conservative New Zealand was not ready to be confronted with this kind of, um, liberalisation decriminalisation of sex work. I mean, um, but it was really a matter of, um the public looking in the mirror and saying, Well, it's been brushed under the carpet, essentially, [00:05:30] in a legal sense for so long. Um, it hasn't addressed the issues of abuse, the issues of health and safety within the sector. Um, for anyone who comes in contact with that or accesses the services of that industry, and it's as important for the clients as it is for the sex worker that it would be a safe, functioning environment. And I'd have to say that at that time, um, we had no New Zealand had no, um, facts and figures [00:06:00] that were reliable on how this industry worked. And, um, or being able to monitor, um, how it was working and that, uh, you know, people's needs and and things were sort of being properly and more formally addressed. So that was part of the reasons for it. I mean, so the bill was introduced and drawn from the ballot, you know, which is always a bit of a lottery in Parliament. And, [00:06:30] um and it came up for its first reading. Oh, gosh, what year? 2000, 2001. I can't quite remember when it came up for its first reading. And of course, by this time I'd been elected into Parliament in 1999. And, um, when I got up to make my first reading speech on the prostitution and I had sort of obviously Tim had said, Oh, it's gonna be great having me, um, around to, um, support the [00:07:00] bill and I on the face of it did support its intentions. And when I made my first reading speech, I can remember saying, Mr Speaker, I guess I'm the only member in this house that's ever worked in the sex industry. Nobody denied that and was able to speak from a, um, a position of experience about it, Um, and that you know, we could right the wrongs. I think here that really [00:07:30] we needed to address this issue in a in a, um, sensible and intelligent way as a country and albeit that it will be difficult and people will be going taking huge, you know, gulps of, you know, Good God, what are we doing here? Um, kind of thing. But, you know, it's not turned out to be as, uh, horrible and as bad. There's some elements of it now that need to be addressed again. At that time, Were there any [00:08:00] other countries in the world that had, um, either decriminalised, um, sex work or legalised it? Don't think legalised it so much. Some one or two of the Scandinavian countries. I think we had a slightly more liberal outlook on it, but there were still some punitive effects of it, but to criminalise someone for being a sex worker, Um, and for clients to have gotten off scot free was just sort of really quite intolerable when it came to the law. Because it does take two [00:08:30] consenting adults in this financial transaction that occurs regarding sex. And that's essentially what it was. The difficulty is, is that a lot of, um, a lot of transmittable sexual diseases, um, can occur. And, um, the kind of clientele that accesses the services of sex workers are not your plastic Mac brigade. They are ordinary men and women. Um, who [00:09:00] you know. So the husband might have a flirtation somewhere overseas or within New Zealand or whatever. Um, could pass on anything unwittingly to a spouse or a partner. And, um, with HIV being particularly highlighted as, um somewhere where safe sex was the message we were putting out, Well, you know, how can you guarantee that you're going to get safe sex if you're accessing sexual services of a prostitute? [00:09:30] Um, and no, uh, health matters are being considered IE wearing condoms, et cetera, or having non penetrative sex or whatever you know, it might be, um, it just as one aspect of it. Um, so no, there weren't any other countries around the world at the time that were looking at approaching the issue of prostitution the way that this bill was, um um, going to address it. [00:10:00] What was the debate like in parliament? It was It was, um, difficult. It was, um, and not just in parliament, but I mean throughout the country. It was sensational, um, around the country and a hugely divisive, um, and extraordinary amount of work and lobbying and, um, debate and discussion that occurred, I think the campaigners for prostitution reform, Catherine [00:10:30] Healy, and became the prostitutes collective Other women's organisations, even the National Council of Women, if I remember rightly were supportive of it. Some of them wanted to have caveats around it. But there was, you know, it was just about really a matter of all or nothing. You know, you just can't sort of pick cherry pick pieces of it. And I think eventually the public, because we had actually been through the country and the world, I guess, had been through, um very, [00:11:00] very, um, comprehensive debates around things like HIV and a I DS and finally getting that right? It was not a gay disease, you know? I mean, there were so many people around who were preferring it that it just belonged to them, and it would never affect us. It's not true, you know, of course. But I think because in the New Zealand context we've been able to get through those debates and handle it very well, actually, [00:11:30] at the end of the day, when it came to addressing these kinds of issues, uh, we were probably a little more prepared for a robust debate, No doubt. Um, you know, over something like prostitution reform where, um, common sense. At the end of the day, I think won out. It was politically it was a nightmare, I think, to try and pull together for Tim, particularly to try and pull together enough support because it was going to be a conscience [00:12:00] vote, not a party vote in the parliament. So each individual MP will make up his or her mind as to whether or not they would vote in favour of it. And so that required a huge amount of lobbying and, um coercing, I suppose, want of a better term from, um, Tim and his team to persuade other members of Parliament, um to not make such a political decision because it's easy, you know, because every electorate was probably around saying, [00:12:30] Don't you vote in favour of that bill, you know? And so many MP S put their political, um, lives on the line, I think in voting in favour of it, I was one of them. Of course, I was an MP for a rural conservative electorate, and they sure as hell didn't want me to be supporting prostitution reform. And so I took the political risk to vote with my conscience, not for what was politically expedient, uh, for me at the time. [00:13:00] And, um, that's not the only bill I voted like that on, I must admit. But, um, it passed its first reading. I can't remember what the ratio of votes was, but it was probably very slim. But it passed its first reading, which is probably the easiest thing for an MP to agree to be able to do that. Because if you get it to a select committee, then you get the whole public debate feeding into the select committee process, [00:13:30] and so and that that's democracy working. And so that was good that we got it over that hurdle into, um, you know, into the select committee. The select committee process went on for a long time. I did not sit on the select committee, so I wasn't really present for I think I might have sat in once or twice to fill in for another MP. Um, on on that committee to hear submissions again. It was robust, difficult debate that occurred. [00:14:00] Uh, the select committee process came to a conclusion. The committee reported back to the house. It came up for its second reading in that period of time. Um, a think tank called the Maxim Institute in Auckland had recruited. And they are a conservative think tank, Um, with a bit of a religious conviction about them, um, they, um, had recruited a, um [00:14:30] a doctor from the United States, a doctor, Melissa Farley, to come over to New Zealand and conduct some research into the sex industry in New Zealand. She only had a very short period of time to do it, and, um and she, uh, she had done some work and come up with some, um, very suspect. Um calculations and and analysing, you know, analysis. Because, like I have [00:15:00] mentioned before, there was very little, um, factual data on how the sex industry was operating in New Zealand anyhow, and anyhow, So she, um Doctor Melissa Farley lobbied. Parliament, of course, lobbied all the MP S around Parliament, and she went on a bit of a crusade. And she did come and talk to me at one point and put up some quite compelling arguments and debate which gave me pause to think about my support [00:15:30] for the bill. And we were coming up to the second reading debate in the house, and she had just timed it. I mean, of the same week, I think she'd come up and I was ang over, and I can't remember the details of what she told me, but she'd thrown some figures in my face and and I was sort of taken aback by them and she, you know, a reputable doctor and so on and so forth. And so II I took her at a word [00:16:00] et cetera of it. And the word was getting out that I was starting to waiver on my support for the second reading and Tim was very concerned, and so was Catherine Healey and various others were very concerned that I might not vote that I would vote down the second reading. And if that happened, then what message would that send? Not only to the rest of the politicians in the house, but to all the anti prostitution reform people out there. It would be a huge victory for them. [00:16:30] Uh, Peter Dunn's um United Future Party had quite a number of MP S in Parliament at that time. Larry Baldock, Murray Smith, um, and various others. But I just remember them, particularly because they sat next to me in Parliament. And, um, the word was scuttle but was going about the Parliament. That Georgina buyer might be voting down the second reading, and I remember United Future got very excited because they were dead against the bill. And, um, we're getting very excited. And they all rushed to the chamber when [00:17:00] it came to second reading. And we were waiting with bated breath for my speech to torpedo the entire bill by getting up and saying I wouldn't, um, vote in favour of it. But because Tim and Catherine and them had heard that I was being persuaded by doctor Melissa Farley that perhaps I shouldn't support the second reading of the bill. They got a person to come and visit me, who had agreed to be part of Melissa Farley's research [00:17:30] team when she got to New Zealand, and that that person had spent not much more than a day or two working with her before she decided that this woman had no idea what she was doing and that what she was doing was, um, skewing and quite inaccurate on what it was. She was, uh, getting together and stopped doing the work. So they sent this person whose name escapes me to visit me and just tell me what her experience was with Melissa Far while she went around doing [00:18:00] her her, um, very quick research on, um, pro institution in New Zealand. And, um and that indeed, she had, uh, been very misleading in some of the figures that she'd come out with. So I get, uh, get up to do my speech in the second reading, and I started out sounding very grim and do and that I don't know whether it was, and then eventually I. I sort of, um eventually I turned around, and much to the shock horror of the United Future in particular, [00:18:30] I absolutely slammed. And in fact, if I hadn't had the protection of Parliament IE in the chamber saying What I said, um, I could have been considered to have been defaming Melissa Farley. And, of course, I voted in favour of the second reading, had a second reading and went through the committee stage, Um, without going through all the boring process of how parliament works. But that bill came in. I think you may need to correct this, but I'm sure it was either its first reading happened in either 2000 [00:19:00] or 2001, but it didn't pass into law until 2003. And, um, so it transcended an election. We had an election again in 2002, and, um, prostitution reform didn't get its second, its third reading its third and final reading until after that at its third and final reading, Um oh, God, the The atmosphere in Parliament was absolutely electric. [00:19:30] The the chamber was packed to capacity, um, upstairs in the gallery and everything. And, um it was absolutely We had no idea if it was going to pass. Um, the Parliament was utterly divided on it. You could just couldn't tell where it was going to go. And we get down to the final. A third reading. Um, a third reading of, um, a bill in Parliament usually consists of 12 10 [00:20:00] minute speeches. So only 12 people can, um, can speak. And I had no I had not intended to speak in in that reading, but Tim came to me. He said, You've got to get up and speak And I said, Well, I can't The slots have already been allocated and, you know, he said, No. Someone's prepared to, um, to share five minutes, you know, 45 minutes of their time, so that you can at least give a five minute speech. So I was unprepared. [00:20:30] I hadn't prepared for a speech or anything like that, but, um, I agreed, and something was very nervous. I can remember another transgender figure, an Auckland figure. Mama Strickland, who's passed away now. Sadly, Um, and Mama Terry had also been recruited, um, by the Maxim Institute in Auckland to, um and she was against prostitution reform, and she was sort of put up, in my view, to counter me in Parliament who was for it. [00:21:00] And I can remember Mama sitting in the chamber that day sort of directly opposite upstairs in the gallery from where I was sitting or, you know, looking at me with daggers and, you know, and all of that sort of thing. I was shocked that she was against prostitution reform because she was a sex worker herself. And she worked amongst the sex industry in South Auckland. Um, in particular up in Auckland. And, um so I was shocked that she was not in favour of it and couldn't see the merits of what we were trying to [00:21:30] do with this bill. My five minutes speech came along and I had no idea what I was going to say, and I got up and I just asked the question allowed and I said, Why do I support this bill? And I just went off into this Probably 3. 5 minutes of the most fabulous parliamentary theatre that you've seen. I support this bill for all the prostitutes who I've ever known who were dead before the age of 20. I support this bill because I cannot stand looking at the hypocrisy of a country [00:22:00] that cannot look at itself in the middle, you know, on and on and on. Um, I went in this powerful considered straight from the heart. Well, I finished my speech and I sat down, and there was this absolute silence in the chamber. You could have heard a pin drop as everyone sort of took a breath. And then this thunderous ovation, absolutely thunderous ovation that most people in the gallery rose to their [00:22:30] feet. It was the most incredible sort of ovation, you know, that girls ever had, you know, in that sort of sense, and it was sort of quite remarkable. But there were a few more speeches to go. Mine was just one of them. Long story short. My speech and the speech by our Pacific Island woman um MP Winnie la. Now Winnie, of course. You know, um, and she ended up voting, and she put up a very good argument in her third and final reading speech. [00:23:00] My speech and Winnie's speech changed the minds of two possibly three MP S sitting in the chamber that day that particular moment and changed their minds to vote in favour of it. And with that support and with one abstention from Ashraf Choudhary, one abstention, the Prostitution Reform Act passed on an abstention that you couldn't get it any more slimmer [00:23:30] than that. So it was victory for the Prostitution Reform Act, and it passed into law. Well, you know, of course, the world was going to fall in, you know. God, this is the end. You know what? You know, we've become the sixth capital of the world and da da da da da da. But of course, we're 10 years down the track and nothing of the sort has happened. One of the areas of prostitution reform that unfortunately, we did a once over lightly, um, during the select committee process and did not address at [00:24:00] all Well, um, as the matter of street prostitution, which has still been a major issue, particularly for Hunters corner in South Auckland and until the earthquakes, um, also a difficult issue for Manchester Street in Christchurch. But, um, I think there needs to be some amendment around that, and I think the sex industry sector has had ample time to tidy that up and meet [00:24:30] society halfway about the street prostitution thing and because they haven't been able to clean it up, I think I think it's disgusting and disgraceful the way the street workers, um, are behaving in South Auckland. It's not necessary to be like that in these more liberal and safer times. So it is a choice that they have had that that's just a bit, you know, sort of antisocial. Well, you know, um, you either use the liberalisation and the generosity [00:25:00] it is given to that, um um industry, um or you lose it. And if they don't watch out that it will become more punitive. I mean, part of the of what the Prostitution Reform Act has done has empowered local authorities to designate where, um, sex work can occur. Not that it can't, which is what many local authorities wanted to just ban it completely. Wake up in the real world, it does not go away simply because you say so. [00:25:30] They don't call it the oldest profession in the world for nothing so better that you have a grip on it, that there is some regulation around it, and that you are able to monitor it and ensure that people who are either working in the industry or access its services are, um, getting fair. And, um, you know, justice, I guess you know, as you know, comes to a pass in there. But I think, uh, the the rest of the world, I think, finds [00:26:00] if they ever come across these debates in their own countries often now look toward the New Zealand legislation. It was world leading, um, at the time, uh, scary. And I think we've proven in our country, uh, that it has not turned out to be the, um, horror that people that the naysayers to it thought that it was going to be. Now we are, um, some islands down at the bottom of the world. Geographically, our situation is different to that of somewhere like Europe. I think even Sweden's gone more [00:26:30] punitive as opposed to more liberal on prostitution reform. Um, in their country, I remember going to Copenhagen to speak at a university conference. I was asked to go and talk about our experience with prostitution reform and was quite surprised to hear that something like Sweden was, um, going to, um criminalise clients as opposed to, um, uh, becoming more liberal about it. But the situation in something like Europe is different. They've got the economic union and, you [00:27:00] know, and the euro and all of that, and they've got borders that people can easily cross. So the matter of sex trafficking and all of that sort of thing is a very major issue. It's not quite so. I mean, I think we made some amendments to our immigration act here that just doesn't allow people to just flood in just because, you know, you can go and be a sex worker in New Zealand and it's OK, There'd be many of the naysayers out there to say that's exactly what's happened. Just look at Auckland and look at all the Asian prostitutes and things up there like that. No people, you [00:27:30] know, fulfil you cannot, you know, get residency and everything here just because you want to be a sex worker. Sorry, it doesn't work like that. Um, we did put measures around that in the immigration act, you know, through amendments, so that you can't come to New Zealand just like that. I think we've got a working population in New Zealand of around 6000. Um, perhaps who are in the sex industry and the sex industry is more than just prostitution, of course. And, um, as distasteful as it may be to many people, I [00:28:00] think that the way New Zealand has handled, um, sex work and prostitution is an intelligent and common sense way approach. Um, which, you know, is not being ignored by, um, archaic laws of the past, Um, that there is protection there for all involved and that there are and that with with, um, liberalisation comes a huge amount of responsibility too, And, um so yeah, there it is. [00:28:30] You know, a lot of people still ask me now, do you still stand by your support for prostitution reform? And my answer is yes. Of course I do. I'd be a bit of a bloody hypocrite if I turned around and said, Oh, no, I don't think I should have supported that. No, of course I do. Um, you know, I hated prostitution myself. I hated working in it. Um, I you know, I don't like it, but, uh uh, you know, for myself and some of the experiences that I had as a prostitute. Um, I hope [00:29:00] that, uh, people who work in the sex industry these days never have to endure what I and many of my generation and those who have gone before us had to endure. Um, with nowhere to go for help or safety. And, uh mm. Within the space of a year or so, we also had the, um, the civil Union Bill coming in. And I know it's a bit of a long jump to go from prostitution to civil union, but, I mean, that was another. [00:29:30] Um, it's not such a long jump because we dealt with that particular government dealt with two. Well, actually, again, um, civil union became a government bill, but it started out as Tim Barnett's members, Bill and, um, and it wasn't necessarily had to be civil union. It's just that when we debated around, you know what to go for, as opposed to marriage, et cetera, and amending the marriage act and so on and so forth. And we did have that debate during civil union and all of that. But they were great. You know, A lot [00:30:00] of people would sort of say, Ah, social engineering and um, you know, whether it be prostitution, reform and, um and and then what became civil unions? And, um, they were both venal and divisive debates that occurred at the time. And I don't think that the gay community in New Zealand and certainly the gay friendly community, um, in New Zealand ever thought that we would see the kind of debate again that we had endured through homosexual law reform [00:30:30] in the in the 19 eighties. But sure enough, um, you know, our detractors of the day, um, had just crept away somewhere, and they came out full force when civil union came along. Um, people, um, you know, wanted to play real politics with the civil Union thing. And, of course, it had the emergence of, um, outfits like the Destiny Church and Brian Tamaki and all the Christian conservative right wing fundamentalists [00:31:00] who found a platform by which they could jump on. And, um, you know, to further liberalise already, you know, somewhat liberalise gay related matters. Um was just to be on the pale for them. So they were pushing, talking about family values. And look at this country, you know, going down the tubes, you know we've got prostitution reform, and now they want the gays to be able to get married and have civil unions. It was a very venal debate at the time. I can remember during [00:31:30] civil unions, right from the get go, um, from its first reading onwards every day. Um, during the debate on civil unions, um, a little group of exclusive brethren would come and sit in the gallery at Parliament, and they would go and wrote us, you know, So you have, you know, four or five or a few of them, half a dozen of them sitting up in the gallery, just sitting there passively sitting there, but their presence and the way they dress, you knew that they were, um, exclusive brethren. [00:32:00] And it was just their passive protest. I guess. Um, this is this is a church organisation that apparently doesn't get involved in politics, but felt so emboldened that they must get involved this time around. And who was to know what they were going to do in 2005? But, um, but they got found out by the greens, and, uh, but anyhow, there they were, and every day they came into the chamber. You know, um, for the afternoon sessions and the evening sessions of parliament, and I'd sometimes walk [00:32:30] into the chamber to go and do my lag in the house or whatever. And, um, I'd see them up there and just to sort of, you know, piss them off. Really? I just wave at them. Hi. Yeah, I'm here. And on some occasions, I'd actually go up into the gallery and sit down and welcome them to Parliament. Um Oh. Hello. Nice to have you here. I hope you're enjoying the debate. It's getting a bit boring, isn't it? You know, and they just about sort of, you know oh, recoil and horror that, um, I was within their body [00:33:00] space. You know, that was sort of the feeling that I got sometimes, but, um, yes, no. Every day they they would turn up until the bill passed. I can remember when the civil union bill had its third reading. And again the chamber was absolutely packed to capacity. And when the final vote again, it was a conscience vote. The parliament, I cannot remember. I think it might have. It might have passed. It was a slim [00:33:30] you know, maybe no more than 10 votes. Maybe you'd need to go back and check the facts on that. But it was a slim, uh, passage for civil union, um, on a conscience vote. And when it passed and I can remember when the results of the vote were announced in the chamber, the chamber erupted and everyone up in the gallery who were supporters of the bill all flew to their feet. And suddenly there were these little patches of a couple of people who were against the bill, and they suddenly felt completely overwhelmed [00:34:00] by the amount of people in the chamber that day that were in favour of it. It was another great moment and another great move forward. And, um, you know, for, uh, you know, the common sense really of, you know, yes, in the gay community, there's obviously we we're now, um you know, we're in the midst of the debate over the marriage equality legislation that Louisa Wall has got before parliament at the moment. And, um, [00:34:30] I know that there's been, you know, obviously you've had the Bob McCrory and and, um, you know, and others Garth McVicar and people like that have spoken out against marriage equality. But I do not sense the same degree of moral outrage throughout the country over, um, marriage equality as there was over civil union. And, um, although even in the gay community, there's a preference for marriage rather than civil [00:35:00] union, um, that if we had not had civil union, it wouldn't have provided the leverage that marriage equality is just going to It's going to be a Dole. I'm sure it's going to pass very easily, Um, in comparison to what civil unions in comparison to homosexual law reform, you know so incrementally. Over time these things change. But I do give you this warning. In some respects, law is easy to change. [00:35:30] Um, attitude takes generations and that complacency can never be allowed to pervade. Once you think you've got something like that, it only takes a change of government and a vote by a simple majority to repeal these things. So don't think that once these things pass that they're just there forever. Just don't get complacent about that, Um, attitude. Well, I congratulate [00:36:00] New Zealand for their attitude regarding marriage and and civil unions and such things as, um being something not to be afraid of anymore that the fabric of society is not going to unravel, as some would want you to believe. Uh, simply because you provide equality for all its citizens, not exclusivity for some of its citizens. Did you ever sit on any of the select committee hearings for the Civil Union One? [00:36:30] I sat once down in, down in, um, Christchurch. I filled in for a because the Justice and Electoral Select Committee, I think, saw the civil Union bill through. And it so happened that Tim Barnett chaired the Justice and Electoral Select Committee as well as he was the senior government whip. I think at the time, too, he was a whip at least. Anyhow, um, and I went to Christchurch one day to fill in for select committee hearings down there. I was barely at the [00:37:00] table five minutes before I was spitting outrage at some submitter had come forth who spewed out this absolute venal tirade. He was absolutely horrified to be sitting and having to submit to the likes of me and to have Tim Barnett sitting at the head of it. He just thought it was outrageous and just some of the horrible, horrible things I had to leave the room because I would have disgraced myself by just going right off. And that would be most unseemly for [00:37:30] a member of Parliament to do that. But, um, I was, uh, you know, deeply offended by this man, and he was deadly serious. He was almost shaking with rage that, um you know that people like me particularly and Tim were even in our parliament, were even allowed to be. You know, this was the kind of and I thought I thought all that sort of stuff was gone, but it wasn't. There's one thing I'll say [00:38:00] in their defence is that, um I will defend their right to even Brian Tamaki and Destiny Church. And that, horrible enough is enough march that they had through Wellington. Um, I think you know that march. That man had no idea what effect that that particular protest that destiny Church had in Wellington, where 8000 of them turned up to parliament to protest against civil unions and uphold family values. And he held a sort of evangelical, you know, [00:38:30] meeting out in front of Parliament, where I stood there for hours protesting with my rainbow flag standing on the you know, the steps of Parliament. And, um, it felt like you were at a Nuremberg rally. That's what it felt like, the fist punching in the air, the black uniform thing that they were wearing and all of this kind of stuff. It was horrible. And I actually think instead of helping their cause, he and the Easterly Church helped our cause because [00:39:00] when the public saw that they were offended by the way he presented themselves, not what he was debating, I didn't agree with what he was debating. I would defend his right to say it and to do it and to protest. We live in a goddamn democracy. But the way they presented themselves not only to parliament, but obviously through media to the nation. The nation was not impressed with that. And they did not like the imagery that he presented that day. [00:39:30] I had people in Lampton Quay and offices who were emailing my office as they watched the march go through town, who were absolutely outraged and insulted and offended at what they were seeing. And they were in disbelief and they were sort of, you know, emailing and their support. And I've heard of people who were brought to tears on the street when they saw this imagery Men and boys marching in Roman formation down Lampton [00:40:00] Quay and and down towards Parliament, Um, punching the air like, you know, um, doing Nazi salutes. That's what it sort of looked like. That's not what they were meaning, even if it was black power salutes. And this, um, you know, enough is enough. Enough is enough. It was a pretty powerful day. And when I compare that protest and the imagery it portrayed and you know and its intention [00:40:30] and I compare that to the over the foreshore and seabed which was probably the largest protest that's ever gone to parliament, angry but awesome and dignified and, you know, that was palpable. That was the for the foreshore and seabed. Um, I give points to the for the foreshore and seabed over and above what Brian Tamaki and Destiny Church were [00:41:00] trying to present over civil unions. And again, you know, the world did not fall in because we passed civil unions. And indeed, if anything, it's probably slightly embarrassing that not that many people, really, in the scheme of things has have used the legislation for civil unions. I mean, maybe a couple of 1000 at most 1500 maybe have used it. And civil unions, of course, was not exclusive. It is inclusive. It was for anybody who wanted to, um, have their [00:41:30] partnership solemnised in that respect. And let's remember that marriage at the end of the day is a civil action. It is a marriage licence that is civil. Um, but the gay community and others, you know want to go for marriage equality, and that's fine. I can respect that. But I'm also perfectly comfortable with Civil Union. I think getting is, you know, up to each individual person how they feel about that. I don't [00:42:00] have a huge amount of respect for the institution of marriage in itself. And, um, and why do I think that the churches should win out? Because that's the connotation that marriage has. Of course, marriage is not about the church. The church part of marriage is an add on. It's a ceremonial thing. It is to acknowledge that, um, you know, religious side of things, if that's your persuasion. But marriage technically, legally in every other way at the end of the day is a certificate of [00:42:30] registration, that you are married and that it's a legal solemnization thing. And that's a civil matter. Civil union during both the civil unions and also the prostitution reform. How were your labour colleagues were? I mean, was it a supportive caucus? No, no, not by any means. Um, the leader supported them, of course. Um, so that was helpful. Helen Clark. Uh, but, no, There were elements of labour. [00:43:00] Most certainly. You just need to go back and look at how how people voted in the parliament, Um, over that to find out a few names that I can think of who are against it. John Clayton. Cosgrove. Dover. Samuels. Um, Ross Robertson. Um, who else? Um oh, yeah, probably a few others. But those are a few that just come off the top of my head at the moment. And on a personal level. How did you deal with that? Well, you've got to respect that, um, [00:43:30] these matters of conscience, it is their conscience. They got to vote on. Obviously, some MP S made a political decision because, you know, whenever you hear an MP on a conscience vote? Say I must go and canvass my electorate first and find out what the feedback is and what they think. Fair enough. That's fine. But at the end of the day, should you actually be swayed simply because you think, Oh, if I don't do what they want me to, I might be out of my [00:44:00] seat at the next election. And that I'm sorry, is the cold, hard reality of it for many MP S, there are some of them. No, Couldn't care less about it. The, um, piece of legislation may not be that important to them. They're going to go with their electorate and vote against it now. My electorate and rapper were definitely against prostitution and reform. They were definitely against Um uh, civil unions. Um I voted with my conscience and what I believed, and I I took the political risk and voted [00:44:30] in favour of those bills for another example foreshore and seabed. My electorate definitely wanted me to vote in favour of the foreshore and seabed legislation. But I, as a Maori, did not want to vote in favour of the foreshore and seabed. It was not a conscience vote. It was a party whipped vote. And although I resisted and would have left parliament with if I had had the same choices that she had, I couldn't and I didn't, [00:45:00] and I had to vote in favour of it. Against my will, I was backed into a corner over it. I spat the dummy about it. I expressed my displeasure with having to vote in favour of it and all of that. But again, I had to against my will vote in favour of it. You know, really, I suppose at the end, because it was a party vote, not a conscience vote, and my party wanted me to vote in favour of it. My electorate wanted me to vote in favour of it, but my [00:45:30] gut feeling as a Maori. No, this is wrong. What we're doing is not right. There's got to be another way around this particular issue. And, um yeah, uh, it was horrible. In fact, the foreshore and seabed was the beginning of the end of my political career and a complete change of my attitude about being in labour. [00:46:00] And it was the issue that prevented my ever getting promoted in labour and because I could prove that I could be disobedient, you know, and and not afraid to express my feeling about it. And, um, yeah, I find for me the foreshore and seabed was the worst thing I ever had to do in parliament. Everything else Prostitution, reforms, civil union, all [00:46:30] of that. Not a problem. But that legislation, it absolutely threw me into a AAA. I was disillusioned after that. Uh, I hated it. It was terrible. And, um, they will never forgive labour for, you know, making them have to make those choices. And I'm Yeah. And you know what? On the foreshore and seabed, how vindicated [00:47:00] did you think I felt when Michael Cullen came to leave Parliament at the 2008 election and the week he's leaving Parliament, he finally acquiesced and acknowledged that perhaps Labour had got it wrong on the foreshore and seabed. And I can remember hearing that on the radio and yelling out to myself at home or whatever at the time. Yes, I was right that I'd felt guilty all that time since then about my my, um you know, not being cooperative at that [00:47:30] time over it. And then finally, to hear our one of our leaders, you know, at the time to the end of his parliamentary career, acknowledge that we got it wrong on foreshore and seabed. So when the newly elected National government, um along with the Maori Party and others, um, repealed the foreshore and seabed act and replaced it with the marine and Coastal area amendment bill, which is probably about one [00:48:00] sentence more different than the foreshore and seabed I went to Parliament as a former member and sat in the chamber that day to watch the third reading of that Takata waa bill go through just so because when you sit in the chamber as a former member, you're right by the you're sitting right there with the opposition benches. So I'm there with the old Labour colleagues looking at them and they were wondering why I was there because they're sitting in opposition now. And I went I came back just so that I could see that Bill [00:48:30] get see foreshore and CB get repealed and chucked out. And, um, just for my own self satisfaction to sit there and go see you all gave me a hard time at that time. But at the end of the day, I was right. I was right.

IRN: 896
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TITLE: Kiran and flatmates - Beyond Rainbows
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VOICES: Emilie Rākete
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Ara Taiohi; Auckland; Auckland Pride Festival; Beyond Rainbows (series); Department of Corrections; Emilie Rākete; Family First NZ; Glee (tv); It Gets Better; Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD); Pride; Pride parade; Pride parade (Auckland); Statistics New Zealand; Transgender Dysphoria Blues (album); University of Auckland; Wai Ho; abuse; accomodation; activism; alcohol; allies; anxiety; autism; capital; capitalism; cisgender; community; degenerate; depression; disability; emergency housing; empty promises; equality; exclusion; gardening; gay; gaynz. com; gender; gender activism; gender identity; health; homelessness; homophobia; homophobic bullying; housing; housing crisis; identity; inclusion; internet; mainstream; mainstreaming; marginalisation; marriage; marriage equality; media; mental health; mental illness; misgendered; oppression; people of colour; power; prison; prisoners; queer; racism; rainbow filter (Facebook); rent; resistance; rest homes; safe house; state power; struggle; support; survival; survivor; trans; transgender; trauma; tumblr. com; youth
DATE: 18 July 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Kiran and flatmates talk about their safe house for queer trans* disabled youth and " yell or die" activism.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm here in, um, flat with flatmates. Um, tell us a bit about your flat. Um, well, we're a little flat in Avondale. I tend to refer to it publicly as a safe house, because that's what I set up for it to be. And, um, myself and my partner rent out the house to a bunch of other largely disabled, largely trans queer people. And, um, sometimes we are full to capacity. So some of us actually looking at us [00:00:30] somehow obtaining a second house on the street so that we can, you know, put up more people because there's a real need for safe accommodation for people like us. What are some of the issues around safe accommodation that people are needing be part of the housing crisis in Auckland right now? Um, so that's massive. I mean, like, queer and trans. Um, youth already have, like, a really, really hard time finding safe housing, Right? And, um, when you've got a housing crisis, that just amplifies that issue, like, you know, tenfold. [00:01:00] Essentially, um, it's very, very difficult to find flatmates that you will, um, be safe with. It's very difficult to find a house to begin with. So when 100 people turn up for a flat viewing, they're not going to pick the ragtag quiz. Exactly. The four of us were flat hunting for a significant amount of time, and it was difficult enough finding people who were remotely willing to accept people who are students. And even though not all of us are students, at least one of us was working. People were still like, No, you're [00:01:30] too young or you're students. And if I showed up for flat viewings alone as a visibly queer Brown person, they literally would not trust that I had the authority to speak on behalf of my potential flatmates if I showed up with one of the others. Well, you know, also really visibly queer looking. They just be like, OK, no, this is going to be a house of DeGeneres. We can't rent to you. And as a result, several of us were, you know, like, didn't have a place to live for a very long time. So what else does your flat get up to, apart from safe housing? Is there, you know, activities? Oh, yeah. So [00:02:00] we're looking at something on the wall with a variety of the flats mean drinking game rules? Oh God, So safe housing and drinking. Well, it's, you know, like that's that's part of it, I guess. Like part of safe housing stuff is that so many of us, um, have you know, PTSD or other trauma stuff going on? And I'm not going to say that drink drinking games are specifically a trauma coping mechanism. But also, I'm going to say that they kind of are and, um in general, like safe [00:02:30] spaces, even for even spaces that are explicitly meant to be safe for queer and trans. People don't often accommodate survivors particularly well, especially not people who are. You know, most of us are autistic or have some other sort of sensory shit going on or some sort of anxiety shit. And like, am I supposed to be swearing this much? And I think it's OK and and it's really difficult to find, um, you know, even straight white allies who are comfortable with that sort of stuff because it's like, Man, you guys are weird enough with your, you know, like same sex relationships. [00:03:00] I can't even be him. I don't know what that means. So you've all touched on some things that sounds like it's not really covered by, um, you know, for want of a better term mainstream gay rights, um, activism or campaigning or whatever. Some of that being housing issues, um, safer, safer spaces and safer housing for, uh, and trans young people as well as like, um, mental health stuff and survivor stuff. [00:03:30] Is there? Um, yeah, What do you want? I mean, it's kind of obvious why it's not covered, But what are some, you know, reasons or tensions about mainstream gay rights stuff, not covering all this work. And they don't care. Yeah, that that's really it. Like I mean, they've got theirs. Why do they bother? Bother with people like us, like I mean primarily, like any sort of movement towards acceptance towards inclusion is about saying, Hey, we want to be equal to our oppressor. We want [00:04:00] to have that power too. And they have that power. They have that power of queers like us. They have that power in the sense that you know, they can still very much ex exclude us from spaces which are have stepped up, in which you know they are equal to each other. It's like congrats. You know, you have the right to form nuclear families recognised by the state as marriage. Um, like, if you fit into that model and if you have enough money to pay for a wedding And if you have, you know, like, how many of us [00:04:30] are ever going to Yeah, at some point, like everything gets simplified like all of the stuff gets simplified to capital And that includes, like cultural, capital, social capital, like financial resources, everything. And if you're like, like your only access of oppression is that you're you're gay or whatever. Um, it's like you're going to side with capital. You're going to do whatever you can and part of having that means screwing over the people below you. That's how it works because you benefit from so much of it. Like I think, part [00:05:00] of the reason why white gay men tend to be so outraged by being mistreated and by homophobic violence and stuff like that, because by all rights, they should have access to what white straight men do. By all rights, they should be able to, you know, trade over women and trade over other minorities, but they But, you know, on some, some A you know. Hey, they're actually getting bullied, right? And Oh, my God. Oh, my God, that's unacceptable. Why don't we have everything that we should have coming to us and nothing else matters? Because, you know, you still have that power. You still get [00:05:30] to call other people, you know, politically correct. You get to call people like social justice warriors. Because, you know, I'm just a regular old gay who lives in Ponsonby and, you know, like all I want to do is into landscaping competitions and, you know, go walk all seven dogs with my husband and be perfectly respectful and palatable to all the other heterosexuals in Ponsonby. Yeah. So would you say that the There's definitely some tensions with how I don't know, for one of the big the stuff that isn't covered by mainstream gay media. Um, [00:06:00] and then how that is represented when it is covered by mainstream media or they stand to lose things from covering it so they don't read them. If they talk about us because we're not happy stories, like I mean, it's really the pie parade. Um, earlier than I expected to get to this. Oh, yeah, for context of our flat is basically full of activists. But that's mostly because, you know, if we don't, if we stop yelling about our lives literally, no one will give us anything we can survive on. Yeah, it's yellow dye [00:06:30] and tell us to shut up. How has that been received? Has anybody picked up on that, or has it just been largely ignored? Or, um, it's been picked up in the most curious of ways And that, like, for example, I got interviewed for an American like Rainbow website and, like nobody in New Zealand actually wants to talk to me except for, like, the media, who wants to, like, criticise us as much as they possibly can? And like, I mean, Jen literally just got mentioned in my family first, So [00:07:00] yeah, yeah, he does. He want to do a little background on what's just happened with family first, Um, so, um, stats NZ just released the new standard for noting gender identity, which has some problems, and that it lists like anything that isn't like male or sis female and like in other section, um, So I wrote a post about that and family first have just wrote like something, an article saying that it's a really confusing standard, and it should just be set to like objective reality, which is male and female, [00:07:30] and that even people like me, like gender activists, are never going to be happy with it because we're criticising it as well. I want to be a gender activist. It sounds like a fun thing. Yeah, and it's like they like, it's not that hard to get it right. Um, but they don't really stand anything to gain. It's It's seen as a waste of resources to accommodate trans people like and it's sad, like we're literally in the LGBT. Um, like we're in the most famous acronym [00:08:00] for it and we're still not like it's still seen as like, a bonus. If we're even, like, treated even slightly, correct, like this is seen like having an the section is seen as a step forward, right? Yeah, and I mean we had, like there was a long, long public discussion like SNZ attempted to engage us, and there were a lot of us putting time and effort into that, and we were getting yelled over by people who are like Excuse me. OK, No one my age has heard the word cisgender like I'm sorry, but we're all just straight. We're straight like 20 [00:08:30] people, and only one of them knew what it was. And another one looked it up in the dictionary and said it meant being on the side of a mountain, a forum about gender identity. It's like, OK, you obviously know Jack all right. And you think your opinion matters. And in fact you feel entitled to your opinion mattering as much as if not more than, us because you represent the majority and the people who might be confused by the census matter more than the people who are absolutely outright being, you know, thrown on the side of the road. The thing that annoys me is that they have, like, 12 [00:09:00] pages of explanation of what all the words mean and what to tick for, what, at the start of the census, so confusion isn't a valid reason for not including it. What would you say? Some of the I don't know, the impacts of, um I guess essentially being, you know, tacked on in the end or marginalised within a wider LGBT movement. You know, how does that impact like materially or and reality kind of thing? I mean, basically, as far as like the like, mainstream gay movement is concerned [00:09:30] right now. If we're not like pile driving our way towards marriage equality, then it's not worth it. The whole thing with the States with all of the money, like as soon as marriage equality, like went through in the Supreme Court, all of the money is starting to dry up from all of the queer organisations, and no one's going to be able to use that for trans things or anything else. Like we've got marriage. Like what Now, like obviously the gays are equal, you know, there's no there's no homeless trans youth. There's no, you know, like queer people of colour being assaulted on the streets, you know, like equality Rainbow kicked off and not to mention like [00:10:00] even what marriage means to different people as well. Like marriage isn't necessarily an accessible institution for a lot of people, right? It's it's marriage is for those like people who already have access to capital who already have access to power essentially for white, middle class gays and everybody else just gets trampled or tossed to the side. Yeah, it's not like marriage is not really a coherent thing for anyone in this house like, [00:10:30] but your your marriage is not going to be very like it's not going to be. Which is the average for a wedding, apparently, which, you know, Holy shit. I have never had, like, holy shit, like I'm the person who pays the rent and like mostly, you know, like sorts out expenses and stuff. And I cover any shortfalls anyone else has. And I don't know. I don't know what I would do with $36,000. That's that's a lot of money. That's a surgery that [00:11:00] you have to wait 40 years to get. Yeah. Oh, my God. And you know, Jen's been fundraising and shit. But like, you know, like there are people out there who can just blow all of that and be like, you know, II. I want my dream wedding and I'm going to have it. And how is that? How is that reality? Anything to do with us? It's like, you know, the only thing stopping me from having my wedding, you know, is not the $36,000 is the fact that, you know, the state hasn't made it legal for me to throw. To have an excuse to throw this massive party where I get to wear white. I just want to say, like, like, for context. Um, my [00:11:30] benefit just went up from 1 40 to 2 15 per week, and I got very, very, very, very excited. So that's the difference that you're looking at here. Yeah. And it's still just barely enough to keep me alive and fed. I reckon if some white ran like a Kickstarter for their wedding, they'd get money so much further than any Trans woman would and like that should be a bad indicator of not a good one, which is how they take it. People, people want to hear a happy story. That's the love wins. Um, narrative. I mean, [00:12:00] like, it's it's lazy. It's, you know, we want to tell people it gets better, because if we tell them you know, I'm sorry the system is fucked in against you, then we actually have to change things. We actually have to make something that's not empty promises for our youth. And that's all we've all any of us have ever gotten is empty promises. You know, we're sitting here and we've been like we've been multi, multiply marginalised, and no one is accommodating any of our needs. And, um, the only people we have is each other, and we've been so fucked up by society and by the different ways we've been treated that we're all we can't even trust each other properly. And [00:12:30] we're terrified of each other. And we all we have, you know, and and you can't give us and it gets better story. We're not going to believe that and be. And because we are willing to take part in this happy feel good making, you know, because we're not going to smile and walk in the parade and be like, Hey, you know what? Life is good for me because Auckland has a parade because rainbows are allowed because I'm wearing this, you know, Rainbow patch on my jacket. And it means that people slap me on the back and congratulated me instead of yelling slurs at me in the street. A guy spat on me [00:13:00] after the after the parade in 2014. I was sitting on the side of the road and he stared at me and a whole bunch. And in this parade, people yell at us Even when we do walk in the parade and we say, Hey, you know, maybe I'll try to celebrate with you for this one goddamn day and maybe you'll have my back for one other goddamn day this year when I ask you to feed me and they don't Yeah, that, um, a lot of the time, like the best way that we like Like, because we do get a lot [00:13:30] of donors and stuff like like food and money on occasion. And we're very grateful, but, um, like a lot of the time we like, we sell it. We sell it by, like, framing it around like, hey, help these queer kids Look, marriage, equality just got up. I. I raised the most money I've ever raised on this flat life. I got us groceries for a month by saying, Hey, marriage, equality just passed to celebrate. You can help us get food, and it's like none of us. None of us actually give a shit about marriage equality. Oh, my God, if anything, [00:14:00] and we we want to stop hearing about it because all these, like people who think they're good allies who have literally yelled slur slurs at us or refused to support us or mis gendered us suddenly have rainbow philtres on their Facebook profile pictures. And you know what? Um, I've got impact of connections down here as a note, but I can't remember what happened when you're living the life where you have to, like, scream and yell for every little bit that you can get your relationship with. Like the people in the community obviously is going to [00:14:30] like to deteriorate to the point where you can't really feel like you can go to those organisations for help. Like when, like the people who are like in them and running them. The people you have, like, fought with online over like issues of like your rights and your safety. Then you can't feel like the community is a safe space like a safe space for you, right? Yeah, because I mean, like, our friend Amy has talked about this repeatedly and like the fact that you know, she's been constantly going on and on about how you know there is massive, massive injustice [00:15:00] in the prison industrial system, especially for trans women of colour. And no one has listened to her. No one cares and like, What are we supposed to do? No one wants to hear our stories because they are unfair. And also, quite frankly, they can't be bothered. It's not happening to anyone who remotely they can remotely relate to. So why does it matter? You know, we look funny. We act funny, we talk funny, our priorities are different. And because most of us are really fucking autistic, you know, like we literally don't we aren't human. Basically, we can't. We can't connect with them. We don't have this emotional [00:15:30] capacity to engage with the world because we are so mistreated that, you know, we kind of have to shut down to keep ourselves safe. I mean, even the the pattern of Christians ignored, like three different Official Information Act requests about like the state of, like, trans prisoners and how many they were and like where they were. And they just like, ignored them because they know that there's not gonna be big. There's no big like media uprising or like backlash. No one it's not gonna get. It's not gonna be a big public story. It's just, like maybe a footnote on, like, Gaz or something. But definitely not, like one or three [00:16:00] or anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean like we were at, um Well, I and some of the others here were at an event hosted at the university, talking about like Maori and Pacifica queer stories and a representative of one of the major gay media organisations was there and just said, You know, I don't get it, if you like to me again, you know, I don't get it, if you all are. If you all are, um, you know, so, lacking in resources like I was, um, you know, I was talking to the dude at the time because he was [00:16:30] just asking why why don't we reach out? Why don't we ask for help? And I was saying, you know, we do, We do. And there is nothing set up to help us because no one knows that we exist. And when they know we exist, they don't really want to help us. And he Yeah, And he went I don't get it like I mean, surely you know, the mainstream gay community will be willing to help you, like just because, like other things, aren't set up already. Why don't you just apply for the Gay Men's health Network? And it's like, because Because, like like, the answer is because I'm not a gay man. I'm not a gay man. OK, men, Are we supposed [00:17:00] to pretend to be something we're not? Are we supposed to pretend to be something that we've been coercively like in the case of Trans Women, you know? And I'm not speaking as a We here like to be clear. I'm not a trans woman, but, like, are we supposed to be pretend to be things we're not in order to get help like it's that to consider reasonable, like we need to be things that we want to get housing. And I think it's also like like it's very important, like most like, even the things that are set up to help us, Um, don't really acknowledge like any reality, except that we are trans [00:17:30] like off this house, like everyone here has, like like everyone except one in this house is autistic. Um, there's like PTSD. There's like we we're very like, mentally ill. Um, it it's very It's a really, really, really big part of being Trans is just like trauma make. It gets mentally ill. And that's because of the way that the mainstream is treating us. It's like, you know, like we can't like, you know, maybe they're born this way. We [00:18:00] R it doesn't work for those of us who are made this way, by the way, you fucking treated us and we can't get back who we are. And like, um, we it's makes it even harder to ask for help because we're too weird. We act too weird. Um, we need too much space to ourselves. We like we're not emotive enough in our speaking, we can't speak formally. We don't understand how to control our tone. We ask for help, but we sound like we don't deserve it goes down to Yeah, we're not respectable enough. We need to Yeah, we're too much. [00:18:30] We take up too much space if we even try a little bit of space. Um, yeah, there's the deserving poor. And there's the undeserving poor and unfortunately weird queer Trans kids. Yeah, so you've named like a, I guess a multitude of essentially structural and social oppressions and intersections, and you live on the kind of intersections of a whole whole bunch of things. What are some of the ways in which you I don't know, I guess resist or [00:19:00] survive. Like, what are the things you some of you don't personally or collectively? I mean, this house definitely sounds like it's an important part of that. Yeah. I mean, I've said this before, but really, all we have is each other a lot of the time and like and that's that's really true to like a really, really big extent and a very scary extent, because it's like even if we find other people who share the same things we do, you know who are disabled in the same way we are who are queer and trans in the same way we are like we don't know if they're in with people who [00:19:30] aren't who are who benefit from power and who might you know who whose involvement with the people we know might lead to ramifications for us. The queer community is complex as hell, and too many people, you know, aren't aware that you know they they're hanging out with little rapists or they out with people who are white supremacists or, you know, and like, it's like I can't go to most queer events, even ones that are, you know, explicitly trans focussed or explicitly, you know, meant for, you know, literally Asian queers or whatever [00:20:00] without, without running into someone who has abused one of my friends. There's, um, like, even in a big ass like city like Auckland, Um, like, it's very, very hard. Like, um, everyone knows everyone in the queer community you're one or two degrees, like even if even here, like all of us, are one or two degrees of separation from abusers and rapists. And yeah, like, so we we end up seeming really, really insular because we can only trust, like, maybe eight people [00:20:30] in this community. Yeah, And would you say that, um, the space that you've created here is I don't know, I guess like a hub so that other people can find each other. Yeah, absolutely. Like, we have people who travel through who are from other parts of the country and in December from other countries. Um who come through and stop and stay with us for a little bit And, like, you know, check in, like, have a little breathing [00:21:00] space here. We have people who know me on Tumblr where I run and used to run much more actively, A blog for gender questioning. Teenagers like And, um, you know, people who are like, Hey, you know, I live in Auckland too. I really need a space where I'm not going to get mis gendered. Can I come hang for a day? Can I come sleep over tonight? Hi. You know, I don't I don't know where I'm going to sleep tonight. Can I come sleep at your place? And it's like, Sure, we have a spare bed, which in our room you can come sleep with us. There are people living in bedrooms here, and most nights there's at least seven people here, if not like, I [00:21:30] think I think our record was 12. Yeah. Yeah, like sometimes we have 12 people here. It's a four bedroom house with one toilet. And like, doesn't work like we we have We have a fun time literally trying to get anything done. The shower doesn't work like half the stove doesn't work. But like we get by, we get by. And like, we have to get by because, like, you know what? What can we do but help other people out? It's like, OK, look, um, there are currently eight people in the house. Someone else doesn't have somewhere to sleep tonight. Of [00:22:00] course they can sleep on our floor. Yeah. And like and Ali said already like, it's really important to note that, um, you know, we're all like, we all need a lot of space to ourselves, But we all do what we can when other people need space. Because, you know, we only have what we have and something is better than nothing. And sometimes we have to make compromises. Hopefully, we can fix that with the second house, though. Yeah, Yeah, me and, um, me and my partner here, um do you want Are you OK with being named? [00:22:30] Ok, um, yeah, we sleep, um, like we sleep in the lounge together. Um, we don't have a room because it's a four bedroom house and keys with their partner and, um, like so and I'm fine with that. But like having a second house because I'm very autistic and often get very overstimulated because this is a common constantly tracking through the space where you sleep. Um, and having a second house means, like, we not only can help more people, Um, like we better equipped [00:23:00] to help people because, like, um, basically all of us are heavily involved with, um, activism or some sort of reaching out to support. You know, some states that we all have different. We play different roles, we have different interests. We reach out to different groups. But we aren't going to be able to do that if we are constantly burnt out from, you know, trying to look after ourselves. But sometimes that's the best we can manage. What are some of the relationships like with the other groups and other people that you've reached out with? It depends on what other groups. [00:23:30] A lot of a lot a lot of people tend to regard us with a sort of wariness, like they they don't trust us. They think we've got something up our sleeves. They think we've got something planned that is, some sort of, you know, hostile take over or something that's bigger than just, you know, surviving. I think because like they don't believe or understand about, like, the whole all of the struggle, they think that you just have all of this time on your hands to, like, do all this bad shit when in reality you're just trying to live and like, they're like, What are they doing with all of that time? Why do [00:24:00] they need all that time to, like, cook and clean? Yeah, we were like we're all disabled in some way. And, like, even like doing the dishes or, like vacuuming like will take up an entire day, if only because like it, like it takes up all our energy. And then all we can do from then on is the rest. Like a lot of our time is spent not doing anything because that's all we can do. And I mean, as activists like that makes us, you know, between juggling, you know, the [00:24:30] literal per task of staying alive and juggling what everyone else expects of us in terms of, you know, just literally just keeping ourselves alive. We have to do all this activism, and then people want to talk to us. The media wants to contact us, and we have to deal with all this press fallout and all this public fallout from people talking about us and people trying to talk to us when we barely have enough energy to talk to each other to make sure we have milk in the fucking house. So what it sounds like? Well, obviously, [00:25:00] you know, there's a whole bunch of negative crap surrounding, um, lots of different aspects of your identities, you know, around mental health and around, Um, just just a whole bunch of stuff, Really. What are some of the ways you know? How have you personally, um, worked through all that crap? Essentially, you know, is good because like, it's the it's the mainstream gay show. So, like we can watch it and see what these people are really like and laugh at them. [00:25:30] Yeah, it's like, Hey, you know, this is all really familiar to us, but it has no ramifications on us because none of these people are going to jump out of the screen and actually, you know, beat us up. Yeah, it's we've made a habit of just like semi semi, ironically watching like glee and other like bad shows and just like like, relating to them really hard, while also like like understanding and like making fun of all this shit because these shows are really, really racist. A lot [00:26:00] of the time, like the only safe way to relate to the mainstream gay thing, is like through the V laughing at them. Yeah, and it's not even like good laughter. It's anxious laughter. It's Oh my God, these relationships are so unhealthy and remind me of relationships I've been in in the past when I thought I was this or whatever, you know? Jesus Christ. Oh, my God, this is so painful to watch. It's so real. Yeah, And the thing is, it's meant to be playful laughs. It's meant to be genuinely warm. Yeah, it's our lives. This is literally our lives, you know, like, um, [00:26:30] like people look at it and go, Oh, my God. There's, like, drama every single episode and, like new people are trying to destroy this group of people every single episode. It's like, Wow, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Like a lot of like, this is more of just like people not believing that we exist or that we struggle as much like like reviews and stuff. This is the thing, like any kind of music or or TV shows or anything about trans people. Queer people, um, like, will always be [00:27:00] like it's not relatable like no one actually has this many struggles like And yes, yes, we do like, yeah, the the sister who reviewed transgender dysphoria blues and said, Oh, this album is not relatable. It wasn't written for you. Oh my God, it's not punk, because it's not relatable. My, um when I was still living at home, Um, my dad, my dad stopped watching orange is the new black because he found it unrealistic because he thought, there's no way prisons can be this bad. [00:27:30] And by all, by all accounts, prisons are so much worse. Much worse. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, one of our friends, um, had a relative share of Facebook meme about, like how we should we should totally have, um, old people put in prisons and prisoners put in in senior care centres because prisons totally look after people way better than senior care centres. And I'm like, you have to be in prison, abortion and also [00:28:00] you are totally white, middle class and, like you have never thought about a prison for a day in your life other than as taxpayer money being wasted not just being wasted but like being wasted on what they see is like a luxury for prisoners like hot showers and, like power and food accommodation. If you put your grandma in a shitty place like let's be real, it's your fault. Yeah, and it's like, you know, we want, like, [00:28:30] like, really like whites Just need to shut the fuck up about blaming us for their problems because, honestly, like if you if you if you can't be bothered, if you're so individualist and capitalist that you can't be bothered looking after your grandparents or like you don't have the facility to look after your grandparents or whatever the hell like that's and existing structures don't do that without kind of exploiting you or or your or your relatives. That's not on the people who are going to jail. How is it on the people who are going to jail? How is it on the people who, you know have different sort of family ethos in you or whatever the hell [00:29:00] like, if it was really that much better, old people would just commit crimes and go to jail like old people aren't dumb. They'd go to jail if it was better. Yeah. I mean, like, it's very yellow, you know? Like, why not just fucking go to jail? If we all go to jail, then they will overflow, and they'll have to get rid of jail. This is how we build a prison industrial complex. This is this is the big thing that we've been planning with all the spare time. Yeah. We're just all gonna go to jail [00:29:30] just to wrap up. Are there any kind of last things that you want to say? Like, um, who to whoever is potentially listening or to other people who might be struggling and surviving in the same way that you all are. If you have money, give us it. If you don't come hang out with us, that's pretty much it. That's pretty much it. That's yeah, that's pretty much it. You know, like you're not alone. You're not alone. And the world is [00:30:00] more shit and more terrifying than you have possibly imagined. Even if you're already depressed, I promise you, but you're not alone, and I'm not going to tell you that it gets better, but you'll find some way something will happen. You'll run into a bunch of ragtag queers like we are, and we will terrify people at the bus stop waiting for the bus and it doesn't get better. But you find other people for whom it also does not get better. And you get to be miserable all together more than nothing, don't having found it all, I sounded enthusiastic.

IRN: 897
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_rainbows_danny.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004371
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089665
TITLE: Danny - Beyond Rainbows
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 2010s; African American; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asian; Auckland; Auckland Grammar School; Auckland Pride Festival; Beyond Rainbows (series); China; Chinese; Ching chong; Epsom (Auckland); EquAsian; Grindr; Hong Kong; Mai Chen; Pride; Raven-Symone; That's So Raven (tv); Wai Ho; assimilation; assumptions; attraction; bullying; children; coming out; courts; effeminate; expectations; family; food; gay; identity; internet; internet dating; labels; language; law; lawyer; linguistics; media; minority; parents; people of colour; representation; role model; sex; single sex schools; social; speech-language therapy; stereotypes; study; television; university; visibility; voice; youth
DATE: 16 July 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Danny talks about stereotypes, aspirations and gay asian representation.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I guess my identity is, um, I. I prefer to just identify as Danny is the truth. Um, without any disrespect. I. I feel that a lot of the times, a lot of terms that are, um, sort of thrown around I I feel that I don't necessarily want to identify with just because I feel, um that sort of complicates my identity in a way that I don't need to. [00:00:30] I totally understand the need for a lot of, um identifying factors and features. Do you mean because it feels like it limits it or, um, people have assumptions around a label or something like that. That's I think that's what it is. It's Sometimes it feels like a label to me personally. Um, and I find it easier to identify to find my own identity. Just, um, by using my name and describing what I do and describing, um, [00:01:00] myself. Um, yeah and I. I mean, like I said, I do understand why there are, um what? What? What I find are labels. But what other people will find is something that that's comforting. And the reason why I find them as labels is because sometimes I feel like there are burdens or expectations that come with them. For example, even even something as basic as like, Oh, I'm Chinese. Um, so I am Chinese. [00:01:30] I'm from Hong Kong. Um what? What does it mean to be Chinese? Are their expectations? I think as an immigrant, there probably are a few expectations, or at least in, uh, some images that that that, uh, obviously have kernels of truth. But sometimes I feel it's easier and less complicated to live without and something that we probably should aspire to. Um, to have, um, [00:02:00] things that describe people to be almost almost neutral, that that don't have to come with a whole lot of baggage. Hm. And I mean I. I will. I think I will. I want to talk about Raven Simone if you remember her from that. So raven, she's now on the view. Um, recently, she's made some comments that have been about labels and identity, and it's had a few controversies and a few criticisms, and I can totally see why, because [00:02:30] it can be interpreted as quite inflammatory. What she said was, she doesn't want to be are labelled as African American. She doesn't want to be labelled as gay and, um, well that it sounds like she's saying that she's not black or she's not gay, but I. I kind of understand where she's coming from, and my friend actually explained this to me. I think what she's what she's trying to say, and this is what I also sort of believe in is that [00:03:00] as a society I, I think that we're trying to aspire to is that we is is one where your preconceptions of someone shouldn't have to come from the labels that they're assigned with. And that's what I want. That's what I want to be. I want to be in a society where, um being gay and being Chinese as factual labels rather than social labels have. They don't have to carry any expectations. [00:03:30] They don't have to carry, um, any negative or positive positive connotations. Um, and I think that's a really good thing. That's that's my real opinion. So if a label carries weight or you know, assumptions about it, what would you say? You know, what do you feel like the labels that are applied to you? Not necessarily that you apply to yourself, but that you know, may be applied by other people. What would you say? Some of the assumptions [00:04:00] or stereotypes are around those and how how they affect you. Um, well, I think the the I think you're right and that it's the stereotypes are the main thing that are attached to these labels. Um, for example. Well, I mean, from from experience in high school and actually throughout life. When you say you are gay, Um, immediately. There are assumptions applied to being gay, um, to being [00:04:30] to being specifically Chinese, gay and male, I guess, Um and it just differs between between every single person out there. But I feel like stereotypes such as, Oh, if you're gay, then they say, Oh, I knew it because, um, you have a higher pitch sounding voice, and I'm sure there's phonology and phonetics and acoustics associated to some kind of, like, biological reason or something like that. But, uh, I mean, [00:05:00] if if you're assuming all of that about a person, then then what? What do you know about the person? Well, how does that colour your interactions with them? Like, um, my my friend recently, he he asked me, Are you comfortable with being identified as as the Danny, the gay guy. And I said, Well, I mean, I'm OK if you're just saying that [00:05:30] to identify me as an they don't know which, which Danny or which can go. But I don't want that to be just what I am. I want to be in control of my identity. Um, and being in control and being in control of my identity doesn't just mean choosing what labels or choosing what I want to be. It means pretty much having no identity, if that makes sense. Um, OK, just like, um, by [00:06:00] by the boat like I'm 19 and, like, my opinions are like pretty much gonna change properly next week. And disclaimer. I'm I don't I don't know what I'm talking about, but but this is what I think right now. It's just, um I want to I want I don't want my identity to be tied down anywhere. And does it feel like, um, the way that society interacts with your identity or you interact with society? Does it feel like it is quite [00:06:30] tied? I think a lot of the times it can it can feel that way because, well, as much as we like to say that, Oh, we're colour blind or we don't care. But you know, there's always an undertone because partly because of history, because, like and historically people, people of colour, people who are, um, LGBT have been discriminated against and seen in a different light. And historically, [00:07:00] as in from my childhood, like whenever you, uh, from childhood, I think is the only place. It's the only time I remember being sort of like, um, not bullied, but I guess kind of bullied, but like sort of being outcast or feeling strange about being either gay or Chinese, where people, you know, like kids with, um, like in year two, come up to you and say, like and then say, What did I say in Chinese? And I'm [00:07:30] like, What the hell was that? That's really, really funny because they're tiny Children, but I'm sure like I'm sure that does affect you. And, you know, it's when people ask, Where are you from? And I say here and that's a bit of a lie because I'm from Hong Kong. But sometimes I just feel sick of saying that even, you know, like As you can tell, I have a quite a broad Kiwi accent or and [00:08:00] like I've lived here since I was four years old. And my identity is with here as much you know, as much as I want to identify with being Chinese or Hong Kong, I think I can't deny that. You know, I I'm a New Zealander pretty much, um, you know, and that's what that's what my family thinks as well when they see me, because I can see the differences. Do you feel represented, or how do you feel? Like, um, the representations around being [00:08:30] Asian or being Chinese or being gay or gay and Asian exist or don't exist? I think that representation of um, a spec as a specific group in the population is, um, it's important for young, especially younger people, but also for just everyone in that group. Um, in order to feel, um, like you can your your pa you you [00:09:00] can be like you can be anything you're not tied down to a specific path or you're not tied down to specific ways of saying things of acting or anything like that. Um, and like I said, that is tied to labels. I think it's because of labelling people and sort of carrying stereotypes and, um, ways of looking at ways that other people perceive you. That it perpetuates like [00:09:30] a cycle where, UM, there is only is only one path for, uh, like, say, a gay Asian person. Um, and what I find most harmful about that is for for me personally, is that there's not so much representation in any of the like any of the things that I want to do. Um, and it's not It's not. I don't think it's necessarily, um I mean, it depends on each [00:10:00] like profession, I guess. But it it it's not necessarily the the fault of anyone in there. It's, um it's just a societal quirk that's happened. And it is unfortunate. For example, do you want to do so? I study law and linguistics and, um well, to be honest, I don't know any gay Asian lawyers. I don't know any Asian lawyers except for like, um because she's pretty much like written some articles that we had to [00:10:30] read for law and stuff, and, um, and the another thing that I want to if I end up hating, Really not wanting to do law because it's really stressful is speech language therapy, which is related to linguistics. And, um, when I first saw that, I thought, Oh, this is something I really want to do I This is this is honestly, like maybe it's my calling. But then I look into it and I thought, Oh, maybe I won't fit in Because speech language therapists are [00:11:00] like it's it's quite a an anomaly that there are about 97% women. And I feel like, Oh, well, I mean, obviously I can do it because, you know, it's not like they're not hiring men. In fact, it's like it's the same with doctors where there's not enough women. Um, they need more representation from every field, But then I feel like, Oh, but is there some expectation that I don't do that now, but I really want [00:11:30] to, and it looks really fun. Well, not fun. It's a little bit depressing, but it feels like something that I'd want to, you know, devote my life towards um and you know, representation is important because you have to you have to see someone to aspire to because we, you know, child Children base their lives around role models, whether it's mom or dad or, um, a superhero or someone they see on TV or their teacher. And if there's no one out there to identify [00:12:00] with or someone out there that you can sort of think, Oh, I'm going to be them one day. Then I think you feel put off from from doing something so not a whole lot of gay Asian representation. And a lot of things really do. Would you feel like there's much or any gay Asian representation with an LGBT kind of media or whatever? I think slowly, it's getting better. Um, there's slowly becoming more representation, and I think [00:12:30] that's because, um, in Asian in a in, um, the Asian population, it's becoming more acceptable to actually be LGBT and especially in in Asia itself, like it's starting to open up. And you're starting to see actual news about, um uh, visibility in Asia with within LGBT. Um, again, though the especially with with gay men, [00:13:00] there's a lot of quite negative, um, association on, um, like connotations or just a negative experience is what I'm trying to say with being Asian as a gay man, and it's It's so silly because it's literally like on Grind. And, um, I don't want to say all the other ones because they know they'll be really revealing that I go on all of them. But sometimes I feel [00:13:30] like that's such a silly problem because that's that's just sex. And it's like attraction. But then well, does that How how much of an influence does that have on how much of an influence does that have on me wanting to become a lawyer? Um, although I have I have My mother's friend told me that lawyers get hired because they're pretty because he can't be ugly. And in court, I was just like, Oh, oops, [00:14:00] yeah, um, But maybe maybe that's true. I mean, how how often do you see people who aren't ridiculously attractive and have heavy makeup on TV as lawyers? So I'm making I'm making like this expression. So yeah, I guess it's tricky because you know what's on. What's on TV isn't or doesn't, you know, represent what is happening in society, And I guess that's the power of representation that it can show, you [00:14:30] know, a whole bunch of stuff that isn't necessarily going on because I guess if you just thought about society from the TV, then there's only able bodied pretty people who live in nice apartments or whatever. But, um, you mentioned I want to go back to you mentioned, um, increasing kind of representation of gay Asian peoples and how that's impacting. At least I guess Asian society and making it more acceptable to be gay or queer or whatever. Would you say that had an impact on your family [00:15:00] and how they, you know, relate to you? And I think it definitely has, um, the only person that I actually came out to was my mother. And that was because, um one day she was like, Why? Why are you why are you doing Why are you why are you like searching up these articles online? And I'm like, Well, I don't know. And then yeah, and then I was like, Well, is it a problem if I am gay? And then I cried and then she was like, Oh, stop [00:15:30] it. And then, um, you know, she was like, Oh, you know, it's a phase and and I was like, Well, no it's not. And she was like, Have you Have you tried liking girls? And I'm like, No, I don't think that's how it works. Mum, you have to try. How old were you when you when you were looking at the articles and 17? No, it was just Oh, it was like I was looking up. Um, I was just, like, looking at news articles and stuff like that, but, um, yeah, that's when she asked me. [00:16:00] And that's when I count to her. And she was She's totally, like, supportive of it. But obviously, you know, with there's always these anxieties and she sort of treats me as like, um, like the pure daughter now, so I can't go on any dates and stuff. Yours is a bit weird, but oh, well, um, yeah, but, um, the funny thing is, she she ended up talking to the the members of my like, my extended [00:16:30] family, um, the the members who she knew would be supportive. So my cousins and her friends, um, like her high school friends, um, surprisingly, most of them are not surprising. I mean, like, they they have been supportive because I think that is the trend that younger people will have more, um, knowledge and acceptance of this in Asia. Um, but she didn't tell anyone over the age of 30 38. And [00:17:00] then I think, Well, OK, that's I guess that's fine. But does that make me? Does that make me like, Does that? Is that hiding something from my family? Does that make me sort of outcast from my own family? I So I have to sort of wonder, because sometimes my mom tells you you can just not tell them. You just you don't have to tell anyone. But then what is I? I feel like I. I feel personally that I am hiding something from them. If they [00:17:30] don't know fully. Um and even, you know, it's not like it's a topic that's completely relevant to I don't know if a job interview or anything like that. But eventually something like that's gonna come up. And, you know, every time someone finds out that I'm gay, then immediately you know its questions come up. But I'm you know, I'm fine with people asking questions. But sometimes I wonder. Well, [00:18:00] you know all these things, don't you? You have other gay friends. Why do you need to keep asking? And you know it's not. It's not something that annoys me terribly, but I feel like I feel like it's something that I It's something that has a an inkling of uncomfortableness. That's what that's what it is, that kind of con continue coming out and having to field a whole lot of questions or their [00:18:30] assumptions. It's exactly the same thing as Where do you come from? It's like, Well, it's a perfectly innocuous question, and I can just answer it like I'm from Hong Kong to talk about where where I was born. But then it was like, Well, we're not talking about that. We're talking about how to how to, um I don't know, Bake slice. Yeah, that's the thing, like with lots of labels that the people you know who who gets the label and [00:19:00] who has to declare their labels, you know, And so it's kind of like when you get asked where you're from, I guess if you're in New Zealand and you look, you probably aren't going to get asked that or if you do that, get asked that they're literally wanting to know whether you come from Auckland or Hamilton, and I think that's the other thing about you know, questions with being gay. You don't usually say, Are you straight or what's What's that like for you? Or when did you know your parents? You know, So it's kind of who the owner sits on to have to explain [00:19:30] or declare those labels. So what would you say? Like apart from all those documents, what would you say? The difference between maybe some of your experiences and say, um with other people who wouldn't be part of so many minorities in so many ways? Like, I think that I'm kind of I don't want to be one of those people who, like talk about what I study in the university, and I've tried to apply it to real world knowledge, even though I'm like a second year. But honestly, I think it's [00:20:00] to do with marked, which is a concept I think in. I'm not sure I know it's a concept in linguistics, but it's probably a concept in just like social science, where one there's a marked and unmarked um, thing. So the marked one is the unusual one, so OK, this is this is a pretty sexist example. But this is what my lecturer said. If you say I'm a nurse, then the marked example is a male nurse, and the unmarked example is a female nurse. Um, and that's simply because of stereotypes. But also, I guess, because [00:20:30] of, um, representation. Um, and that's the difference where I think you know these these because I, I think you can reduce it down to the same way that linguistics is reduced down into, like a science. And it's a fact that we are the marked like, I am a marked person. I'm not the majority. I'm not, um, and straight, Um and but then [00:21:00] again, in other ways, I'm But you know, you have to also consider that in other ways I can be unmarked. If I'm in Hong Kong, then you know I am the majority. But also I'm I'm tall. So thank you. Because, yeah, one time in Shanghai, the stranger in the shop, she just came up to my family and said, Look how tall and I didn't know what they were talking about. And my auntie said All these strangers are looking at you, and I'm like [00:21:30] Oh, oops. Sorry. Um, no. But that's that's completely irrelevant for now, Um, yeah, and that that's that's what we that's what it is. It's a norm. And there's an other, um, and what can we do about that? Well, I don't know. So would you say, I guess, Yeah. When I hear talking about the concept of marked and unmarked, it's like, I guess, dominant culture or default [00:22:00] settings, you know? So we assume everybody is able bodied unless that we know we see a wheelchair or they tell us that they're disabled or we assume, you know, And I guess that's maybe how grinder works that you assume to be this, that and the other. And if you're not, you have to say I'm more I'm Asian or I'm fat or I'm HIV positive or whatever. Um, so would you like, How do you, you know, navigate the pressures to assimilate into majority culture? Or do you feel like this? There is pressure to [00:22:30] assimilate into majority culture. I think that when I was a child that when I was little, there definitely was a pressure to assimilate. Um, and it started off with language where I had to learn English, and I learned it quite quickly. Like I ended up picking it up because I was, like, four years old. So I ended up speaking English quite well by the time I was five years old. Um, like, that was it became sort of like my mother tongue. Um, and then it just sort of so roll on for that from that [00:23:00] I grew up in which is a pretty, like Asian suburb. But then again, I went to a school where, um I was the only Asian person when I first went there because it was the nineties or not the nineties. Actually, it was the early two thousands. Um, eventually, there were a few more Asian people. And then I went to Auckland Grammar School, which was about I think it was actually majority Asian. I'm pretty sure it was, um, but then we still spoke English. There were groups that spoke different languages. [00:23:30] And in that school, um, it turned to be that, um, people stuck into groups. Um, based on what culture you identified with. And I think the pressure to assimilate lessened. Um, once we saw so much more diversity, but, uh, in in high school. I mean, um, but at the same time, what do we assimilate? And then there's, [00:24:00] like, different ways of assimilating into things. Um, then I had to assimilate into my own group. But, um, you know, is that just is that just developing your own personality, then? So some people say fake it till you make it. And I think that's something to do with assimilation. So if, for example, if it's not a visible, um, identifying factor like being gay Although my voice sort of goes away, I think, um, then you don't have [00:24:30] to say and that's what my mom says. Don't say that you're gay if you're trying to get a job, because, you know there are going to be people who don't agree with, um, you know, with what I am who don't like it. Um, but is that is that honest? Just because I'm trying to benefit myself like I'm trying to fake it till I make it. Is that something that we should be doing? Um, like, I guess maybe you could fake it to make it until you're at the top [00:25:00] and then you say Ha ha sucked in But wouldn't it be better if we just all try to aspire towards a society where everything is more or less neutral and no. One? Everyone has an equal opportunity? I know that's not realistic, but I think we have a like you can you can have a goal and it's good to have somewhere to go towards. Um, would you say there's any of those pressures to assimilate, um, within an LGBT [00:25:30] kind of society or communities? Honestly, I, I think there's the like, Oh, I don't want to be disrespectful once again but there is definitely in every society. There's a a pressure to assimilate. Um, you know, and I have to be honest in LGBT society, sometimes you have to assimilate to you have to assimilate to, um, sexualized gay men [00:26:00] hooking up. And I won't say I've ever done that. But like, I mean, that is something that you have to do that that's something you feel like you have to do. I mean, um, and but then there's other ways that you have to do as well, and I think that's also to do with labels. Sometimes you feel that you have to pack a label and stick with it. And, um, you know, this has been discussed over and over, but is is LGBT Is that simply just Is that really just, um what we decided is because there are other cultures where [00:26:30] that's not what it is that you can probably pick a whole bunch of different letters or have no letters at all. Um, and maybe I have to Maybe I. I feel like I'm like, subconsciously I'm assimilating into being what this society thinks being gay is And, well, I, I don't know how I feel about that. Might change next week. Yeah, probably [00:27:00] will. Um, yeah. I mean, assimilation is it's something that's that's so complicated, and you, you can't tell what when you're doing it, and you can't tell when when you are doing it. If it's good or not like, people will tell me. Oh, you know, this is the most annoying thing I hear from people you speak English so well, like you have such a like natural accent. I'm like, thank you, [00:27:30] and it's like, well, OK, but it's because I've lived here just because someone else has lived here less, um, for a shorter period than I haven't had a less accent or less attuned to cultural norms than I am. It doesn't make them any less worthy of being a New Zealander. I don't think. Yeah, it sounds like, um, a lot of that stuff is around. I don't know if inclusion is the right word, you know, [00:28:00] inclusion and exclusion or belonging and not belonging. But, like, if you're a certain way, you're part of the club, and then the least you are like, everybody else is You know, the further out you are out of the club or something, I think I. I agree with that. I think there's, um, part of that exclusion and inclusion. Um, thing especially, especially when you're just trying to socialise, Um, just starting to socialise. Um, in your younger years and, uh, for example, [00:28:30] like I don't think I've actually, if I have experienced bullying or exclusion or like direct people not liking me, I probably blocked it out or just like, forgotten about it. But, um, this the feeling that that happens is still there because you hear about it happening. And so it does. You can't pretend that it doesn't happen just because it doesn't happen to you. And there's always a fear that, um, you know, you're not People are not going to like you because you're gay or worse. People are gonna, like, commit [00:29:00] some kind of crime against you. And that's what you hear about on the news when you hear about, like, all these horrible things happening, where people are killing, killing everyone. And I can't go to these countries because, oh, so and so it's a danger for you. And then it's like I don't know how I feel about that. It's just upsetting, Um, and like in in high school, because I went to a boy's school, it was being being gay was not [00:29:30] talked about so much until, like, the very last year where, um, people were a bit more mature and were actually able to accept it. Um, and the the main thing that I felt was uncomfortable was that a lot of the time people did feel like if if the people who knew that I was gay sometimes would feel uncomfortable around me like I was hitting on them, even though they were really ugly, I'm just joking. Yeah, [00:30:00] Even though I wasn't attracted to them. Not sure. PC way of playing it. I'm sorry. Um, yeah. I just think that if you know II, I I'm I have a lot of female friends. I don't feel uncomfortable around them. Why should you feel uncomfortable around me? And like, uh, I have not rambling on about this, but, you know, because of that stereotype that [00:30:30] you know, if you're a gay male, then you're just hitting on everyone and you all you want to do is get in bed with the next person you see, and you know, that's that's not it's not true. And it's, um it's a stereotype that even though we know it's no, it's bad and it's not true. It's something that you have to. There's something that's just ingrained in us. Um, you know, that's a lot like a lot of things where things are just a lot of stereotypes are just been going. You can't get rid of them, no matter [00:31:00] how hard you try it only, and it takes a lot of work to get rid of preconceptions. Um, and that's going back to labels where it's it's hard to get out of that system of labelling people. Um, yeah. Ask another question. I'm just wrapping up. Now. Is there anything else that you want to talk about that we haven't covered? I think that's pretty much all. So we'll just end if you could tell us just a little bit [00:31:30] about what equation is. OK, Cool. Well, occasion is a social support group that started up last year. Um, I think it was during the Pride Festival. Um, during Pride Month. It was it came up over a event that was to discuss, um, people of Asian descent in in the LGBT community. It gives you a space for for Asian queer people to [00:32:00] voice, um, opinions eat fried chicken and just sort of socialise. Really? Um, you know, once again, Asian queer people still, you know, it's the reality that we are probably less visible. And maybe maybe it's less likely that we're able to meet, um, other people who are like us. So it's just a way to, um, you know, just gained the visibility [00:32:30] and, um yeah, eat fried chicken. Really? Hey, Great. Thank you very much for your time. Danny. That's all right.

IRN: 898
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_rainbows_adray.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004370
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089664
TITLE: Adray - Beyond Rainbows
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VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 1930s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asian; Auckland; Barbie dolls; Beyond Rainbows (series); Express (magazine); Grindr; Russia; UniQ (Auckland); United Kingdom; Vietnam; Wai Ho; androgynous; bear; beauty; boarding school; clothing; coming out; cross dressing; dating; discrimination; dress up; ethnicity; facebook. com; family; fashion; feelings; femininity; fetishism; flamboyant; friends; gay; gender; grandparents; growing up; health; heteronormativity; identity; instagram. com; internet; invisibility; lesbian; love; mannerisms; masculinity; media; minority; no asians; observer; parents; race; racism; representation; rugby; school; social media; social networking; sport; stereotypes; study; teaching; tinder. com; transgender; twink; university; upper class; validation; walking; youth
DATE: 13 June 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: For myself. I don't feel like I am a minority, and I don't identify myself as a minority. Um, just my personal opinion. But if I look at home, I think, um, being asian, um, being quiet, um, I would say feminine in that term, Um, and being gay within a queer community or within a gay community, I think as a whole, I [00:00:30] would say I fit into the criteria of being a minority within a minority. Uh, doesn't reflect on my personal point of view, but it is what it is. So I feel this is quite relevant to talk about, I guess. Yeah. So you're saying, um, so you are studying in Auckland here now, and you work two jobs, but you're also saying that you lived in the UK for five years. Yes, but that wasn't where you grew up. Now, [00:01:00] um, so it's quite interesting with my little story. Is that, um I was actually born in Russia. Um, I lived there for eight months, came back to Vietnam with my parents from Vietnam. So I identify myself Vietnamese, um, but I actually travel travel back and forth between Moscow and Vietnam to visit my dad because he still lived there, But for five years, So I sort of have a little bit of experience in Russia, A little bit experience in Vietnam. [00:01:30] But then after five years, my dad moved back, and, um, I actually start schooling, and then I sort of would say I grew up in Vietnam. Um, I identified myself Vietnamese. I said before, uh And then, by the age of 14, 15, um, I was sent off to England to do, um, a levels and living in a boarding school. And then when I was about 19, I came here to do [00:02:00] my university or tertiary education. And I've been living in New Zealand for approximately for a year. A little bit more than for a year, I guess. Yeah. And how did you figure out your identity? So you were saying you travelled around a bit and went to school in different places? How did that kind of fit in with everything? Um, I think it's a very long process. Um, sort of. I think as I grow older, I start to be more aware of myself. [00:02:30] Um, I mean, back in when I was five, I think other people already sort of call me gay. Or I think other parents told a kid that Oh, he's gay. So don't hang out with him. So I guess by the age of five sort of have some awareness that I might be gay or I am gay because not because of the fact that people are telling me that I'm gay. But I think there's sort of some think dramatically, dramatically different about me compared to other people, [00:03:00] Um, I would say, um well, I mean, every kid has their uniqueness. But compared to the mass, um, sort of kid, like in general, I am quite different. Um, I mean, I used to play dress up with my grandmother. Um, we used to dress up in girl clothing, boy clothing. We don't care. Um and then I guess I'm sort of quite I'm not saying I'm Femine, but I get that very posh [00:03:30] and very sort of lady, like acting like my grandmother because my grandmother is a very elegant lady. And then she taught me how to sit. Well, um, how to eat? Well, how to respond to people. Well, um, all the things that is sort of what She was taught as a little girl in a very, um, upper class family in, uh, in the nine in the 1930 [00:04:00] when it was quite heavily tradition for the Vietnamese family, upper class family, for the girls to have these sort of lady like training. So I I picked up on that, Um I mean, I guess people would think I'm quite feminine. Uh, I don't think that well, I think I'm feminine, but not in the way that, um you know, like, uh, flamboyant or nothing wrong being flamboyant. But I'm just saying, As [00:04:30] of I know myself, I am Quite, I would say late like acting because I like I. I pick up from my grandmother and, um yeah, so I guess because of that II I quite different in the way I eat and stuff and treat, you know how to interact with people at the age of very young age with perhaps the other kid. They they were quite, um you know, being a kid, boys being quite active and girl being quite, you know, [00:05:00] you know, they they would have little clique of hang out, but I never fit into, like a very girly games like, you know, I don't know, jumping rope and playing and or talking about boys and I. I never also fit into the boys. Um, playing soccer. I think I was more like a observer. Um, I observe everything around me. I like to see what people do. Um, I have my own fun, and I often lost in my world and [00:05:30] and also yeah, And when I grow up, um, that sort of carry on me until now, you know, again, very acting lady, like, you know, very polite how to eat, how to walk like I. I think also one of the major thing that set me apart that, you know, people think I'm gay because often I I used to My grandmother just told me that I had to work in a straight line. Um and I think that's I think, people, I guess it kind of girly thing to do, but I would never [00:06:00] have I don't have a habit of working out of the straight line. I always work on a straight line and very light stuff. And then, um you know, my my grandmother told me you have to move like a wind that you make no sound, but you sort of go through and people know that you go through, but not really disturbing now. So I always carry that with me. And I guess when I go to England, um, I have well, before that, I I have sort of feelings [00:06:30] for guys and all that. Um, never really pay attention, because in Vietnam we all concentrated on studying and and it's just a culture that you have to study really hard. And, um, when I go to England, that's the first time I live with myself. And, um, I have a lot of thinking to do and there's no my parents, not around. So I sort of I guess I don't have to hide my feelings. So I sort of exploring myself [00:07:00] and, um and I have a I was, um I don't say a crush. I actually was in love with some guy and and that is when I realise I'm actually gay. But having said that, um, a lot of my sort of interaction, my actions are very, um, sort of restricted with the cultural norm of being a boy. Um I mean, I still act with all these, [00:07:30] um, sort of lady like thing, but I would certainly scared to, um, dress what I like. Um, another thing that I really love fashion. Um, I always grew up in sort of the world of beauty and I. I am so inspired by sort of beautiful things and beautiful clothes and often because of fashion. I love women's wear, and they all inspired me and men's wear as well. And I guess when I was [00:08:00] 14 16, I know I was gay. I came out as gay, but I always restricted myself, like expressing myself fully as who I am, uh, in terms of dressing. So you were talking before a little bit about Are you telling me about an instagram instagram picture that you commented on talk a little bit about that? Oh, yeah. Um, right. It's not actually a instagram picture. It's more like a Facebook post about this. Very good [00:08:30] looking couples who is, um, white, um muscular, attractive. Um, and then the the media. I think the magazine was posting about the couple say, Oh, you know why this couple is is have, like, millions Follow what? Not, um, and I. I sort of how I find it funny. II. I commented on the the Post on Facebook that, um because they are representing the [00:09:00] very rigid and exclusive beauty standard of the queer community. That's why they got a lot of follow up. And then there's quite a lot of argument sort of throwing around with my comments saying that, you know, I hate the couples. I don't know that my judging them and actually respond to, uh, the people who sort of I would say, reply to my comment. And I was saying that like, Look, I don't know about a couple, I don't hate them. I don't judge them. I'm sure they're happy. I'm sure that they are in love. [00:09:30] But I'm just saying the fact that the media is sort of hyping up this one dimension beauty standard of a very white, masculine male with, uh, attractive feature, Um and then they don't representing other alternative looking, queer, queer gay guys. And and I would say that is quite damaging, and and I have a very negative effect on the queer community and especially young queer who are just coming out [00:10:00] and who are not sure of themselves. So That's why I commonly on that my common never intended to hurt or put down a couple, but actually intended to point out the fact that the media is quite discriminating. So yeah, that's pretty much it the sort of Facebook story about the comment and thing. Yeah, And how do you think that plays out? I don't know. Like in New Zealand or in Auckland in regards to I don't know, dating [00:10:30] or representation with LGBT. Um, I think they actually have the same problem here in New Zealand. Uh, Auckland in terms of the gay beauty standard or not even beauty standard Just the gay community in general. Um, if I mean, if you go to, uh, what is the magazine called Express? And if you look at the magazine, you I'm pretty sure that you would not find [00:11:00] any permanent feature of lesbian couple or any non gay couple or non gay individual. Um, you would find maybe some post or some feature about Maori Pacifica or any non white, uh, queer identity. And you probably would not find any Maori Pacifica sort of female, uh, queer or lesbian or transgender to say, [00:11:30] um, you would probably find a lot of sort of very young, attractive, white looking gay men. Um, like I said before, I'm not having any problem with, you know, people being white and gay and being attractive. I mean, they have their life and I don't know them. And then you know what Not. But I'm just saying to you know how the media or how the community is sort of rolling out this beauty idea or beauty standard that if [00:12:00] you want to be attractive or if you want to be respect or if you want to be happy in the community, you should have this, uh, feature of, uh, first being white male being masculine or at least being masculine looking. Because the pictures you cannot know if they're masculine or not or being, uh, a very young, attractive and outside of that bubble, you pretty much being invisible. [00:12:30] Um, and I think that sort of played down and affecting other area of the community in terms of a lot of dating and social interactions. Uh, you know, uh, things like grinder. You know, I know people say that there's like, no, no Asian, no Indian. Uh, no. Black only twink or only bear. Or if if they talk, if you're not attractive [00:13:00] and not talking to you and you know, or some guy just if they're attractive, they would use that to get you know, I take advantage of you and all that stuff or even in general of social interaction. To be honest, um, I find a lot of social meeting that I've been through. Um uh, I, I would say, um, excusing like, because I was a part of them. Uh, because [00:13:30] we do make sure that that would not happen. But I'm just saying, other general, um, sort of meeting or any sort of event that was brought on Facebook because I when I came here I I was out. And then, you know, I went exploring the community, and I want to make friends. And what I find is actually quite interesting is the fact that people are very much biassed by luck in terms of their social interactions. Um, I mean, if [00:14:00] you go to a room of a social event of gay or queer, uh, you pretty much find the young, attractive sort of white male Gays would be quite popular. A lot of people would want to sit next to them. A lot of people want to talk to them. A lot of people would want to, uh, interact with them not to say that they want a date, but it just in general. And then you will see in the other side of the room you have, uh, maybe [00:14:30] lesbians, um, transgender, maybe less attractive gay guys and maybe people like me who was just like a, you know, everything we said in the corner and probably hang out together. And for me, because I am a outgoing person. Um, it's just how I am because I was, you know, have to move a lot. And I always have to make new friends. So for me, I when [00:15:00] I meet someone, I will be like, Hey, how are you? I am a What are you studying? What are you doing? And I'm not afraid approaching people and I regard their look or what not. I just talk to everyone and I find it's really funny is that I remember. I think one of those gay attractive guy when I come up to them, uh, I think they sort of talk to me but they're not really talking to me. And I think one of them sort of hinting that, Oh, they are [00:15:30] not interested in me. But the thing is that I was never interested in them. I just really want to make a conversation because this is a social event. And I find because you know how they look. I'm not judging them, because II I don't know them. I only talk to them. But I'm just saying, as a general sense because of how they look and how they got treated by other people, it sort of influence the way that they interact with other queer as well. And that sort of roll out with the whole community. I'm not saying that they're bad. [00:16:00] Uh, no one is perfect. I'm pretty sure that they have a very good sign. And, you know, I have very bad sign as well. But I'm just saying these things that I observe is is quite common in the community. And I feel like we should do something to, um, make a change. Not maybe not like something dramatic, but probably we should sort of start something new, I guess. I don't know. [00:16:30] Um, I'm I'm involved. So I'm just trying. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. So we talked a little bit before, Like about I guess, body image and what counts as attractive. Um, would you say that you've encountered I don't know, stereotypes about being who you are around your gender around your sexuality or around your ethnicity and race? Yes, definitely. Um, I think a lot of people, because II, I would say I act like, quite feminine. [00:17:00] Um, but not flamboyant. Uh, having said that I, I don't think there's nothing wrong with a flamboyant. Um, I just feel like I'm not flamboyant. Just an observation and my personal point of view. Um, but I guess a lot of people when they think I'm quite feminine, they they sort of treating me in the categories of of fem gay guy, Uh, that come with a lot of, um, sort of hilarious stories, and, um [00:17:30] uh, some discrimination. I mean, I always laugh it off. It's never affecting my, uh, my life, to be honest. But I mean, when I think about it, there's a lot of there's definitely a lot of discrimination. Um, I was telling way before about social interaction where uh, I would come and join When I first moved to New Zealand. I join this event on Facebook, and I go to different events, a social event. I would talk to people and then I. I find a lot of people so reluctant talking [00:18:00] to me because I'm quite a feminine acting individual. Um, and, um and also with, uh, sort of, um, stereotype. You know, people in think I'm Asian, and then they have all sort of Asian Asian fetishist. And or maybe because I'm feminine, they have all sort of trend fetishes and, uh, or discrimination. And I think [00:18:30] all of that is is is a form of discrimination, uh, never affecting me. Um, never make me feel sad in my life. I just laugh it off. I don't pay attention, but if you ask and I say yes. I I that Yeah. So you talked a little bit about I think you said you when you were five. You know, the other kids would say, Oh, you're gay. Or, um And was that like a negative thing? Yeah, it was. How did you Kind of I guess. Overcome that or what [00:19:00] made you go? Oh, yeah. I'm gay, and that's not a negative thing. Um, well, it was very hard because I don't have any friend. I was growing up like I don't have any friend at all. Um, it sort of worked out well for me because, like I say, I am more like an observer. And I often live in my little own world. When I was younger, uh, it was hard in a way that I don't have any want to share with, because I don't have friends. Um, but overcoming that, I think [00:19:30] because when I was younger, my grandmother never really teach me into the stereotype or the gender of a boy. Or maybe I would say, social performing performance of a gender, like if you are a guy or if you're a boy, you or to play cars and and that But she she she was quite different in the way that she we used to play dressing up in both girl clothings and boy [00:20:00] clothings. And, um, she would teach me a very I would say, elegant lady like, um, poise and gesture and action. Like she would tell me to walk in a straight line and I hold my life. I never walk out of the straight line. Whatever I do, I always walk in a straight line. Um, I always sit up straight. Um, when I eat I, I talk, I cover my mouth and I chew very quietly, not [00:20:30] with my front teeth. What? Not? And I guess I sort of used to that. And, um also, my my family structure is quite different as well. My dad was sort of staying at home, uh, doing all the house work, taking care of the kid When he came back from Russia. He retired, so he sort of just taking care of us. He's not really the usual dominant father who go to work and distance. Uh, in the other hand, my mom was the main [00:21:00] source of my our income. She was a teacher. Uh, she teach, and then she was also teach after class, and, uh, I guess I never have to grow up in a home. Uh, you know, if you're a boy, you have to do this. If you're a girl, you have to do this. Uh, I would say there is some sort of social restriction of what you can do in a boy and what you can do in a girl. Uh, but but I think because of the [00:21:30] way that my family rule out, um, it it sort of never really play such an in an important or such a heavy voice or heavy influence in my life. Um, I mean, when I growing up, definitely my dad would trying to make me, you know, you know, playing sport and all that. But he never really have any big negative sort of respond or action [00:22:00] about my, um my way of being, uh, you know, sometimes we fight about things, and then sometimes if I act a little bit feminine he he he he would feel uncomfortable. But I guess he sort of knows. And he he he he sort of sort of adjust to to me, I guess. I mean, I start collecting Barbies as a hobby, Not not because I like to play with them. I just I have I was a serious Barbie collector, [00:22:30] II. I collect Barbie, and that was a thing for, like, a lot of straight guys as well. Um, and he used to see my Barbie collection never say a word and and he couldn't because I use my own money to be honest and and yeah, he he still have them at home? II. I grew up with it. He still have them at home and And yeah, he never say anything. And I guess, Yeah, and I think growing up also, I like fashion. And then there's also sort of [00:23:00] dress cross dressing, you know, you saw the wrong girl dressing in men clothes and John Paul guy wearing dresses down the runway. And then I think my when I my life is this role around you being you and what you wear or what you do, it doesn't doesn't matter. So that's just it, to be honest. So I mean, I was sad when I was five and I was sort of struggling, [00:23:30] but I get when I came out, I am out, and I am very sure of myself. Um, I still finding a lot of new things about myself, but when I'm out, I'm out, and I am not afraid to be who I am. And I don't need people, Val validations of who I should be or what I should dress or I don't feel the need to change myself just to please anyone or please the society [00:24:00] or the gay community to feel the need. I need to be happy. So what would you say? Some of the messages from society. But also the messages from, say, I don't know, um LGBT communities have been And how have they kind of informed or erased or, um, messages? Um, there's a lot of positive messages in New Zealand. I have to say, uh, we have to give them credit, to be honest, [00:24:30] because living in England and living in the UK um, in Auckland, I see a very different world, to be honest, Um, there's a lot more sort of he no messages in over the UK. Um, there's a very sport dominant, uh, soccer player, football player team in England. And I mean, we have the rugby thing going on here, but [00:25:00] I think I feel like there's a lot less emphasis on, uh, you know, the whole you have to be straight to play rugby. Well, I don't want to get into the whole sport thing because, you know, we can talk about that for days. But I, I would say, like there's a lot of positive messages and support in Auckland in New Zealand. But having said that, um, we also [00:25:30] fall into, um, sort of the, um uh, sort of the point of view of a very dominant white gay male in the in the queer community. Um, there's a lot of messages, uh, including, you know, direct messages. You know, health [00:26:00] sign, health care advertisement, uh, gay club that only representing the white gay men beauty, you know, masculine, quite attractive, young looking or indirectly message of through how people interact with you, you know, through social media, social event grinder, tinder and how other friends and other people in the community treating you as [00:26:30] well. And I feel like the the the message is having said that it is very positive, but there is a flaw to them. And I would say there's nothing perfect. And I think as a community, we have to acknowledge the flaw that we are having in our messages and have to work together to create a much better and more positive and welcoming and, [00:27:00] uh, caring messages for the whole community.

IRN: 895
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089663
TITLE: Schools Out broadcast
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VOICES: Mike Bryant
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 2000s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Christianity; HIV / AIDS; Mike Bryant; Paraparaumu; Paraparaumu College; Porirua; Pound nightclub; STI; School's Out (Lower Hutt); School's Out (Wellington); Wai Ho; Wellington; Wellington Access Radio; acceptance; church; coming out; counselling; death; disclosure; discrimination; education; fag; faggot; family; gay; health; heterosexual; homophobia; language; media; parents; poof; queer; queer straight alliance (QSA); radio; safe sex; school; sexual health; single sex schools; so gay; stigma; suicide; youth
DATE: 1 December 2007
YEAR: 2007
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Audio from a School's Out broadcast on Wellington Access Radio in 2007. Mike, Craig and Tyler talk about growing up, HIV AIDS and safe sex.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Hannah Ho. I facilitate a group called Schools out. And so we have some people from schools out here today to talk a little bit about HIV and homophobia and being young and gay or young and queer in today's world. Hi, I'm Mike, and I'm gay. I'm Craig, and I'm also from Yeah, I'm Thailand, and I'm also gay. Right. Do you, um, Mike, do you want to talk a little bit [00:00:30] about how you identify and you know what? What was it like growing up at school and and being young and, well, it was always sort of OK with me at school because it was just, like a generally accepted fact. No one really worried about it or anything. It was just sort of there. Craig, um, I wasn't out at school. Um, going to an all boys school. I felt it was a bit too difficult, so I kept it to myself. Um, made it very difficult, very [00:01:00] hard. Few years I lived, but once that came out, it made a lot easier. Yeah, When I came out at school, I was pretty much queen of the world. You're saying? Yeah, I didn't have any, um, negative. Anything from anyone. And it's been the best few years ever. And how did how did all of your parents are you out to your parents and at home and your families? How did, um, I'm out to my parents and my sister and stuff? I haven't quite gotten around to telling the rest of the family, [00:01:30] mainly because I haven't actually seen them recently. But the important ones? No. Um, I did come out to my family about two years ago. Um, my father's side. I didn't come out to them because I know how they react, and it won't be very nice. Um, but on my mother's side, Yeah. No, they were fine with that. Yeah, I came out two years ago also, So I'm fed as the head of crack, and, um, [00:02:00] yeah, my family is absolutely fine. I mean, my mom was a from way back, went to the opening of pound, and yeah, I mean, everything was fine. I mean, no negative, anything like at school. I've pretty much got the perfect life for a young gay person. That's good to hear. Yeah, I came out about How old am I now? Yeah, about 12 years ago, actually. And, um, yeah, my parents did OK, but it's it's taken them quite a few years to kind of come to terms with that. They They're [00:02:30] Christian. So they they think that they have a special point of view about that. Um, but yeah, they've kind of learned to accept. Accept me for who I am and that kind of thing. So that's been quite good. Um, how How do you when you go to school, how are you finding kind of slurs and and that kind of thing, Um, you know, comments about, you know, is it that's so gay, that kind of thing. How do you does it happen in school? And how do you deal with that? Well, we do get that quite often. You know, [00:03:00] just that's so gay type thing. I get that heaps, and when I'm around, I get all I pretend to get all offended and go. You say that like it's a bad thing. And then they get they get really sorry and they keep apologising. And then I just laugh at them because they made an idiot of themselves. It's been a few years since I've actually been to school. Um, but, um, just as an example, you know, walking through the mall in, um, pretty much every second [00:03:30] person turns around or sniggers and calls you a fag or a puff, and you just turn around and smile and blow them a CAS. What else can you do? Yeah, um, slurs and stuff. I mean, yeah, at school, I've had absolutely nothing. I mean, no one really says that's so gay in Wellington, because it's so, I mean, come on. Everyone in the heart says that's OK. And whenever I go to the heart and you know no, nothing, actually, I've never had anything. I mean, I've had the odd [00:04:00] very good, but yeah, that was kind of funny. So you live. You live at the coast, don't you? Yeah. I. I go to college, and, um, we we've started up like a gay support group thing there. And, um, we've got a couple of members coming along, and, um, that's good, because most of the teachers or, well, all of the ones that know about it are really supportive about it. And they, [00:04:30] you know, they come along every so often and Yeah, it's got quite a good following. Yeah, And it will continue next year, and it's Yeah, and? And what about the climate, or what about how is the rest of the school? Do they know about the school? No, they don't know about this group. We're We're thinking of making it like, um, a queer straight alliance so that gays, lesbians, bisexuals and straight people can come along and we'll be like [00:05:00] campaigning. Sounds a bit strange, but, you know, we will probably be making posters and that sort of thing and maybe doing concerts or something. I don't know. Yeah. Wow, that sounds great. And, Tyler, you were involved in schools out, Um, for a while. Is that correct, Or, um yeah, all all through last year. Yeah. And yeah, it was It was really, really unstructured, as opposed to this year, which has been Oh, lovely. Since you've become, [00:05:30] um, but no, If schools aren't, it's pretty awesome choice. So we'll just wrap up this section. Um, and the song that I thought I would play, um, is called Papa. Papa is a rodeo by magnetic fields. And it's about these kind of two gay cowboys and It's quite funny if you listen to the los cool. So that was, um, that was rodeo by magnetic fields. I reckon the lyrics are quite funny, and it's very, very sweet [00:06:00] song. Anyway, um, so HIV aids safe sex STIs is Is HIV an issue for young people? Is it a Is it a gay thing? Is it a queer thing? Is it an old people thing? Did it happen in the eighties? And it doesn't affect us anymore. What do you reckon? Oh, well, I think that I mean, for young people today in schools, HIV is more of a joke than anything. I mean, they're not really exposed to it. I mean, a few people. I mean, they've got family members and whatnot, but [00:06:30] other than that, not really a big issue for young people. I think you know, being a young person myself, you've always got to be wary of it and do take those precautions, um, you know, promoting safe sex and, um, even though it's not much of an issue for us young people, um, you've just got to be careful. Yeah, like I'm not entirely sure if it's an issue for young people. Well, you know it is. But like, not a major thing, we have to learn about it and like, health [00:07:00] and stuff. And that's good. And we do learn that it's not just a gay thing. It is like through mother and baby and through, um, unsanitized needles and that sort of thing. But, um, yeah, like Craig said, we do have to be careful, but yeah, so do you think it's more of a A general comes under the general safe sex ST I that kind of thing rather than being a big monster off by itself. Oh, yeah. I mean, absolutely. I mean, I had a friend the other day who told that they had [00:07:30] unprotected animal, and that was that They didn't really give a fuck about it. But I mean, I, I kind of had a little bit of a fit at them and told them to go get an SD. I check because I mean, an STI check is not very pretty. I mean, what a few anal swabs never really hurt anyone, but, um, HIV is should be treated as a journalist. I think. Well, it's a lot more serious. I mean, you can't drive crabs. Can you? So do young people. Pretty much like what? What do you reckon young people's [00:08:00] attitudes are to safe sex? Is it more about pregnancy for straight people? Or do you generally just do safe sex? Because it's just what you do. We've been taught in schools. We don't want to get SD. I So that's that's just, uh yeah, yeah, I think, um, you know, the young people. So a lot of them actually think that, you know, if I'm you know, if I don't have a IS or HIV and he doesn't or she doesn't, that we're fine, and we don't have to use protection. Um, [00:08:30] but I believe that you should always use protection, no matter what. No matter what, even if you're in a long term relationship with someone monogamous, Definitely. Well, you never know when someone might do the dirty on you. Um, what was something that was quite interesting? That I was reading up on some stats is that there's been I think there was 100 and 77 infections last year and kind of about in the eighties. Most of those infections HIV infections [00:09:00] were, yeah, men who have sex with men. Um, and in the last kind of few years or whatever, I can't remember the stats exactly. But there have been a lot more heterosexual infections. Um, yeah. And in the past, when you had your HIV aids academ epidemic there, a lot of the AIDS and HIV that was coming into New Zealand was from overseas. So, um, people assumed that it was, uh, many [00:09:30] of men going overseas. Party, party, You know, New Zealand is really small. You can't kind of sleep around, but overseas you can. And so people were just taking a few more risks. And so a lot of the HIV infections were overseas. Um, And now, for the men who have sex with men, the stats in New Zealand are internal infections. And so they're yeah, from New Zealand around New Zealand. Whereas the heterosexual population that are contracting HIV aids, um, are external. [00:10:00] So again, they're they're going overseas and partying and and bringing infection back. And so if you kind of look at that trend, um, in 10 years or 20 years, a lot of the heterosexual population will be internal infections, which yeah, because the heterosexual population is larger than the homosexual queer population. That's quite a you know, that's kind of a quite a quite a big deal. Almost in a sense. Yeah, well, [00:10:30] yeah. I mean, in New Zealand, it's always been the whole men who have sex with men are the biggest threat. HIV aids wise, as opposed to, you know, Tanzania, which is all mostly heterosexual. But, um yeah, another thing that's really changed in, I think in the eighties, if you were diagnosed with HIV, they gave you something, like 10 years to live, you know, because they weren't the meds. Whereas now there there seems to be more meds. I don't really know much about it. So you're even If you're diagnosed, [00:11:00] you can kind of live for a really long time. And, um yeah, So someone was saying that the pool of HIV positive people is growing, in a sense, Um, yeah, which I don't know. Yeah. I wonder if people don't think that it's a heterosexual thing. So, you know, if other people think that's a not a heterosexual thing, so they don't have to be as cautious or, you know Oh, and another thing is that a lot of young people they assume, you know, in the eighties, [00:11:30] they were given, what, 10 years to live. And now they've got meaning. It's like the attitude that you get from some some young gay people is, you know? Oh, I'm gonna get it one day. So you know what is and it's like, um yeah, what suburb of the Wellington do you live in? That's kind of scary. It is very scary. And it just makes you, you know, think about all those people out there And, you know, it just stirs up some massive trust issues, I guess. Hm. Craig, [00:12:00] do you think Is there an attitude that you've come across with other young gay men that it's It's not so not such a big deal if you get it or it's inevitable, or just people you know still really practise safe sex or, um, I mean, people that I know that are positive. HIV positive. Um, you know, they're just they're just living their life to the full and just carrying on as an old person, obviously taking precautions as they have to. And when [00:12:30] they do go to actually have some fun that they do let the other. The other person know that they're positive and yeah, but I just think that, you know, young people these days need to be a bit more precautious about, you know, using protection. Because, you know, there is a slight possibility that the other person could be infected. Cool. We'll just wrap that one up. Um, this. Yeah, I thought I'd play a track by MI a off her first [00:13:00] album. I think it might be It's, um, called Lolita, and it's a bit of a a Lankan take on the whole Lolita story, which is quite funny as well. Cool. Cool. So that was, um, Lolita by MI A quite a funny song, I think. Um, yes. So we are back again, and we are talking a little bit about stigma [00:13:30] around HIV aids and and maybe just even around, um, safe sex and sexual health. You know, um, so if and when you get a a new partner or you pick someone up at a bar, do you have conversations about your sexual history and disclose? Um, you know, would you disclose HIV? Would you disclose herpes or that kind of thing? Um, well, if you're talking to someone and you do have something like HIV or aids or something. And you, [00:14:00] you want to like date them or whatever or it's getting serious. Then you should definitely tell them that you have it, because if you don't, it's unfair on them and, you know, they run a risk of getting it type thing, and it's just Would you be worried about the reaction? Well, of course you would, you know, But it's just what you have to do, You know, there's, I mean, they can freak out, but a lot of them could just sort of go Oh, OK, you know, and accept [00:14:30] it if you you safety. And so that's something that you'd expect someone to tell you as well. Oh, yeah, Oh, yeah, I know that I would tell people if I was positive in a bar or what not. I mean, in a situation like that, I would definitely tell them if I was positive. And I do expect everyone else, you know, just with HIV or other things. It depends how serious or slash embarrassing it is. I mean, if it's more like, you know, I just got over a case of serious crabs. And it's like, [00:15:00] you know, I don't know I I do. But when it comes to, you know, stuff like IV, it's really serious. And I do expect people to tell me or anyone else if they are positive and yes, general expectation, Most respect, you know? And has it has it happened to you as someone disclosed and or how How do you think you'd react? If you know, if nice, cute boy in a bar and getting serious or take them home or you take them that kind of thing. And yeah, Do you think that would change your perception of [00:15:30] them or I personally I I would be a lot more cautious. I mean, yeah, I mean, I I only personally know a lot, Um, older people with HIV aids that that I know are positive. But, um I I haven't actually had a young person come up to me as having being positive and that, I guess, would be very scary for me, I think. But I'll get over it and just like, you know, you get over other stuff, but yeah, I mean, I would hope that if someone was positive that you know if [00:16:00] things were gonna carry on later that night that, you know, they would come across and tell me. But I think people these days that may be infected aren't all open and honest about it. I mean, a lot of people are just up to sex. And if they were infected, I don't think they would actually tell me personally, I would be very open and honest because I don't want you let it down the track to them for them to find out from somebody else and then have a stab at me for it. [00:16:30] And how do you think your families would react? Or your friends would react if you found out that you were HIV positive. I think coming out as a positive person would just be coming out as a gay person. Personally, from what I've heard, I mean, um, Well, there was one case. I mean, I heard this lady was talking about how she had to. She was working with counselling with the guy, and he, um, committed suicide because he had HIV. So she had to go home and [00:17:00] go to his parents' house and and say one You know, your son's getting. Secondly, he was HIV HIV positive. And thirdly, he's killed himself. And that that's something like that. I mean, would definitely scare your parents, but I mean, coming out. I mean, my mom, I guess, would be destroyed, but I couldn't imagine anything else, Really. I mean, it's a serious thing. Well, like if if you got HIV, that would sort [00:17:30] of their concern for you would be more than any stigma they like with your parents. They're gonna be so worried about it that they're not really gonna not care is not the word. You know, they're not gonna worry about how you got it or anything. They're just gonna be concerned that you got it and that it is deadly, and, you know, they won't sort of disown you or anything for it. What's quite interesting about the stats that I've been looking at? Is that the Yeah, a lot of the infections [00:18:00] are older men, actually, And, um, someone was saying that might be something to do with, um, you know, if you're in your forties and taking meds gives you another 40 years, that's kind of when you anyway, so, you know, maybe I wonder. Yeah, I wonder if that makes people care a bit less or what Not because you're like, Oh, well, I wouldn't die anyway. It depends when you do get infected. I mean, if you've been affected by somebody who's had HIV for for a long [00:18:30] time and they've been taking the medication then so far, all the medication that they've taken will pretty much have a chance of not working. Or, I mean, it's it's a lot. The chances of you not surviving would be a lot slimmer than if you got infected by somebody who just had HIV aids. But, um, yeah, I mean, like you said that in the older population, it's more popular. Mostly, I guess, because of Internet dating and saunas and what not. I mean, I don't really see huge amounts of young people meeting up online. I mean, they do, but, [00:19:00] I mean, not as severe, I think. So. You guys, some of you guys know people who live with HIV Um, what are these stories like have do they face, um, heaps of discrimination or prejudice within within the gay community or the queer community Or, um, personally, I mean all my friends do joke about HIV aids and I mean it. They don't do it around people with who they know are positive. But I mean, really, [00:19:30] I mean that they do know it's a serious issue, and they do know that they don't mean to intend to hurt anyone, you know, positive. But I mean, they're always very cautious about what they're teasing. But it's just really they try and treat treat it as a joke. Yeah, you know, I guess it's the defence mechanism. Maybe I was working at a funeral for about two years, and during those two years I had two cases come through the HIV positive. And, um, I mean, I can't go too much into detail detail [00:20:00] about the cases, But one particular gentleman who was heterosexual was not, you know, not having man to man sex. Um, he was diagnosed with AIDS about 16 years previously, and after seeing what had happened to him, you know, seeing a photo of him, you know, five years earlier and seeing him how he was once he had passed away, it just brought it home to me, you know, really made me think you know that you have to be safe and you have to use protection. And it wasn't nice what I saw. And I just hope [00:20:30] that people are going to be safe and do take the right precautions. Yeah, So I guess, um, yeah, there's there's a couple of guys I know who are HIV positive and yeah, they're saying that the stigma that they get, um, within the queer community or within the gay community is is really, really hard to deal with, because you kind of, I guess, as a gay man or a a queer person, you you expect prejudice and bigotry from the general population. But then it's kind of [00:21:00] like when your own gives you shit for these things are really hard to deal with. That's kind of cuts a little bit more. So I guess, Yeah, there is. Yeah, II. I think there's still quite a bit of stigma and, um, prejudice and yeah, ignorance around HIV aids and yeah, definitely something to kind of keep on it and keep educating ourselves about, um, within gay community or queer community. Um, yeah, well, we'll wrap this one up. [00:21:30] Um and this is a song. It's called. It's called soft by Kings of Leon. And it's about this guy. And he really likes this girl. Um, And he he gets I think he gets really stoned or drunk and turns up at a party. And he's so stoned and drunk that he passes out in her garden and he's real gutted because he can't go and spy on her, but yeah, so So that's quite a funny song. Cool. So that's, um, us from schools [00:22:00] out. Thank you for listening. Um, yeah. Fantastic. Just remember the guys. Next time you're having fun, use a condom and just be conscious about things, things.

IRN: 894
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/popcaanz_presentation.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004368
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089662
TITLE: Emma Kelly and Gareth Watkins - POPCAANZ presentation
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Emma-Jean Kelly; Gareth Watkins
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; 30 (exhibition); AIDS Memorial Quilt; Ahi Wi-Hongi; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland Pride Festival; Beyond Rainbows (series); Carmen Rupe; Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Dana de Milo; Derek Jarman; Emilie Rākete; Emma-Jean Kelly; Eve van Grafhorst; Gareth Watkins; Gay-TMs (teller machines); HIV / AIDS; Jo Jackson / Grizz; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Māori; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF); Ngā Taonga Sound and Vision; Paula Booker; Petty and Vindictive collective (Auckland); Popular Culture Assocation of Australia and New Zealand (POPCAANZ); Positive Women Inc; Pride; Pride parade; Pride parade (Auckland); Q12 (series); Ruth Busch; Ryan Conrad; South (series); Tiriti o Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi; Welby Ings; Wellington; academics; accessibility; againstequality. org; archives; cis male; colonialism; curatorship; death; disappear; funding; gay; gender; google. com; health; heterosexual; identity; interviewing; invisibility; labels; lesbian; marginalisation; marriage; marriage equality; minority; passing; poverty; pridenz. com; queer; rainbow; rape; suicide; trans; transgender; transition; university; visibility; women
DATE: 30 June 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Emma Kelly and Gareth Watkins present at the POPCAANZ conference (Popular Culture Association of Australia and New Zealand).
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So my work on Gareth's work began last year when I presented at the University of for the Cultural Studies Association of Australasia conference there. And I was talking about a particular uh, exhibition of his called 30 that was on at the New Zealand Film Archive, which is now sound division. So it's changed its name since last year when I started to think about, uh this, uh, this particular sort of performance [00:00:30] of the ideas I've been thinking about with Gareth Gareth work because we're in Wellington and this is where he is. I thought, Why doesn't he come along? And then I thought, Well, why doesn't he just speak? Because it's, you know, wouldn't that be interesting? So what we're doing is trying to stage a discussion, uh, with the curator and the sort of theorist about the kind of work they're doing, So feel free to get involved and join us. So the title of, uh, 30 signals the death of the first person from an AIDS related [00:01:00] illness in in New Zealand 30 years ago. So that's how the name of this exhibition came about. But at the time, Gareth was the curator at large at the New Zealand Film Archive so he could take anything from existing uh, collections of the archive and turn it into any kind of exhibition he wanted. And I believe he did Pets, tricks and treats. And 30 there was one more and the last one was farewell. So looking at farewell and troops overseas around both first World War [00:01:30] and Second World War. So the exhibition was in one room of the archive. So this is walking into the cafe area of the archive and then the next is walking and towards the beginning of the exhibition, and then the next slide is within the exhibition space. So the exhibition was in one room of the archive, had a range of audio visual materials from the eighties and nineties period news reports on HIV AIDS stories of individuals such as Yvonne, who was a young [00:02:00] girl from Australia who moved to New Zealand, uh, videos of dance performances. At a particular point. All the screens would fade to blue and a nod to Derek Ja's 1993 film Blue and a poem would be heard spoken by its author will be who had contributed one of the AIDS quilts, which was displayed in the exhibition and used in the marketing of it. So that first image you saw, um, in this presentation was well, the day before I left for the conference, I was to present it in Australia. I was [00:02:30] invited to the Auckland, New Zealand film, a branch of the New Zealand Film Archive, to talk to Paula Booker, who's the curator up there. And she had taken 30 exhibition, and she'd, uh, shifted and changed it for the Auckland audience. So this is one of the banners that she had in her version of the exhibition. Was this one in your version as well? It was, too. Yeah, so where Watkins had followed the remit of the curator at large by only using existing materials in the collection, [00:03:00] Booker had added new material previously unavailable in the archive, chiefly from Positive Women, a nonprofit group who support women with HIV A. I DS Booker was passionate about these changes, and she told me about having someone close to her die die of AIDS related complications, and it was very recent at the time when she was talking to me about it, she recounted to me how this person was a heterosexual heterosexual woman. And despite a year of experiencing problems with her immune system in Auckland, the the medical fraternity had not thought [00:03:30] thought to test her. For HIV, it was only when she was in the acute unit of the hospital in the last week of her life that the correct diagnosis was made. By then she had full blown out AIDS and she died. So this is like a really powerful story of something that happened to this curator. And so she had chosen to change the exhibition in response to it. So got on the plane, went to Australia to present my exhibition on my piece on on Gareth's, uh, work. But I rewrote it thinking about what Booker was doing in this [00:04:00] recreation of this exhibition. So I argued in my paper a few days later that it was the addition of the narratives of these large, largely heterosexual women that made the exhibitions 30 a queer one. And there's a definition next of, um, following Anna Marie Geo's definition of the term because it had moved away from what had been largely though not exclusively a gay male narrative because that was the material that was in the archive. However, I was left with a feeling of. So what? After that presentation, [00:04:30] I'd made a theoretical point. It was kind of clever, but the paper did little else. So what was interesting to me was the idea. There's such a variation of people that the exhibition was trying to represent and that the two versions of the work had different emphasis. There are some intriguing questions that can be asked about changing an exhibition, which had been developed carefully by one curator by another one and the personal motivations behind this. But at the same conference, I presented that the keynote, uh, one of the keynote speakers was Susan [00:05:00] Striker, and she talked about the tyrannies of minorities within minorities and the complexities of transgender identity formation. When, in her experience growing up in the USA transgender person was disappeared into their new identity when they had gender reassignment surgery, she explored the complexities of this dilemma where, in order to become oneself, one was expected, at least where she was from, to issue family, friends, location and deny one's identity as a transgender person. [00:05:30] So I think it's the next slide. Striker has previously authored a piece claiming that transgender studies is Queer Fairy's evil twin. She's recently established the first transgender studies department in the in the world at University of Arizona. Strikers work on the politics of identity and marginalisation within already marginalised groups chimed with some voices from Auckland, which have recently been raised as challenges to mainstream gay and lesbian identity formation. And I asked myself if Gareth Watkins [00:06:00] was curating materials from the film archive in 30 years time about the contemporary situation. What would that exhibition look like with some of the discourse? Seem as anachronistic as some of the material he showed in in in 30 from the 19 eighties? And just to say, um by transgender, when I use the term, I'm following Jay Pros' notion of the figure who shapes queer theory, constructionist account of gender, the subject who crosses gender boundaries in some way. And this is another [00:06:30] quote from, um Ja Prosser in In relation to the notion of transition transsexuals, Watkins and I have both been following the stories of the petty and vindictive collector from Auckland with interest. They're largely undergraduate students at University of Auckland and interested in discussions of gender queer trends, particularly in a colonial context, which makes it quite interesting under the no pride in prisons Banner. This group, some of whom identify as Trans challenged the Auckland Pride Parade 2015, Inclusion of Correctional Facility [00:07:00] and police staff. Given the terrible human rights record for trans people in New Zealand prisons, a self identified trans woman, um, becoming woman is a term that she uses for herself a Maori term. She's a Maori woman and a lesbian was injured during an altercation with security guards and her arm broken during this protest at the Pride Parade, the social media and mainstream gay, uh, media. And I think I've got some slides. Um, the next one, I think, uh, express [00:07:30] particularly enacted swift retribution on the specifically in the petty and vindictive collective in general, saying they were, uh, fringe. They were bullies, uh, received rape and death threats, admonishments for wrecking a hippy braid and other accusations. So she ended up in a hospital and then the the gay T MS, as they called them. So the A NZ had decorated the ATM S for pride. One of them had paint thrown on it. Everyone assumed it was Emmy, and Emmy was like in in a hospital, you know, with their with their arm broken. [00:08:00] But she was definitely a target for some of the stuff. And it was really interesting because she was the Maori woman. She was the trans woman. She was the lesbian woman, and she was sort of targeted, uh, as the she was the flashpoint for what was going on. So for those involved in the in the protest, uh, pride protest in the so-called um, pink washing debate, these issues of identity and inclusion of minorities, um, and minorities within minorities that have come up in my thinking about and curatorship, uh, they they're literally an issue of life [00:08:30] and death, of poverty and homelessness and suicide are huge issues within transgender communities, for example. And as North American scholar Brian Conrad has recently argued in relation to a discussion he's been having in the US and Canada, um, in an online or archive, he calls against equality, and I think I've got, uh, the next one is Yeah, thanks. Um, the rhetoric, the rhetoric of equality and inclusion could be problematic if it leaves many people silenced by its overly celebratory [00:09:00] and uncritical tone. He also argues there are conservative, conservative and capitalist reasons to include gays and lesbians and, for example, the defence force and the institution of marriage and various legis legislative changes, which support a neoliberal agenda. The suggestion that we've all made, uh, we've all made it to the same place that we all want to achieve the same things leaves many people feeling disenfranchised, invisible or further marginalised. So what has recorded Ryan Conrad, who I've just mentioned? Um, when he did a Wellington talk here and also a interview [00:09:30] on these matters for pride DN dot com, which is his online. We're gonna call it platform because we're not going to call it an archive, and we'll talk about that. It seemed to me that Watkins curatorial practises both in the physical space of the archive and 30 at and pride NZ in the virtual space of the Internet was worthy of further investigation. So it's not to reject a discussion of 30. But since we've got Watkins here, Gareth here, why don't we have a discussion with him? So, [00:10:00] um, I think this actually ties in really nicely, Giles, with notions of labelling and naming and ranking of peoples. And how do you do that? And yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And we're going to talk about the grain of the voice, the importance of actually hearing someone speak for themselves. Um, and the work that that Gareth does. So we're both interested in in these discussions. So first, we're going to play a little bit of audio from ME, which is on, um, which Gareth recorded [00:10:30] for pride NZ. And something that needs to be talked about is the power dynamics that exist within the queer community. Because it's something that doesn't get, um, thought about a lot. Um, trans women are extremely unsafe, like we're hugely subjected to violence. Um, our attempted suicide rate is like 40 to 50%. Um, that's like people like living trans women who have tried to kill ourselves. Obviously, it's [00:11:00] epidemic, and if you're dead already, you can't contribute to the physics of attempted suicide. So it will be much higher than that. Um, and it's violence because, um, when you know when something reaches those proportions within a population, you can't explain it as just, um an individual decision or an individual circumstance because it's a It's a whole population who are being subjected to conditions which are, in my opinion, [00:11:30] incompatible with our survival. And that's why we die. Um, and it needs to be talked about in all kinds of spaces in Maori spaces and queer spaces and, um, spaces for people of colour. And that's kind of what glitch, who he has been this weekend. And so it's been really, um, really good to be able to talk about, um, the stuff with the community here. And I hope that the the community abroad in this country, we can take these discussions away from this space and [00:12:00] into those wider spaces and talk about the violence, which is queen of colour. We're uniquely subjected to that. Our white friends and our white family and the other members of our community, um, maybe won't have direct experience of because it's, um it's something that they probably aren't familiar with, and they're not. They don't experience. Um, I should also say that the interviewer and that was a so it wasn't [00:12:30] I. I didn't have anything to do with the recording. Apart from commissioning the recording. And that was one thing that that that we were going to talk about. Was that that peer interviewing thing where, um, I think it's really important to get people from whatever community to talk to each other? I. I think I could never have got that that information. I don't think I could have, um the and had a long standing relationship. Um, and it was one of those things that it it seems to me it's not [00:13:00] a, um it's a 1 to 1 conversation. It's not a It's not out there in a in a larger kind of group. So let's launch right into a question related to that. Someone does an interview with one other person, and then it's put on the Internet. How do you let people know the implications of where that recording might end up with pride? NZ, for example, I [00:13:30] try with all of the interviewers, so I also do interviewing as well. Um, we have a a release form, and we, um, say right at the start that this is going to be a public document. And if there's anything, um, that they don't want public, don't you know, just don't say it. It's not like an oral history where it's going to be in an archive for 50 years. It's going to be out there in the public, you know, like a week after it's been recorded. So, um, that's one of the the the the basic ideas behind pride NZ Is that the visibility [00:14:00] so that actually it's accessible to anyone anywhere, Um, and the idea that you know, it's these stories that aren't necessarily in mainstream. That should be kind of kind of out there. So, yeah, I think it's, um, in terms of the setting up the interview, it's kind of trying to say, Well, look, you know, go and have a look at the website. See, the the type of material that's there. Um, I think people are a lot more savvy nowadays. I mean, I come from a public radio broadcasting background and, um, [00:14:30] yeah, certainly in the broadcasting background. I mean, people understand that it's going on the radio. Um, nowadays, I think, um, people are a lot more aware of media and a lot more aware of, you know, um, sharing on the internet. Um, although there have been occasions where somebody said something. They've signed the document, the release form, and then come back a month later, saying I didn't I didn't realise that was going to be out there [00:15:00] to say Yeah, yeah. I mean, there is editing and, um, I. I mean, how we try and structure the interview. So we we do the, um, start the recording and say, you know, you realise this is being recorded. It's going to be an open document. Are you OK with that? Do the interview, Um, and then at the end, say is is there anything that you want removed from that? Is there anything you are not comfortable [00:15:30] with? Um, are there things you haven't been asked that you want to be asked those kind of questions? So it's basically just getting confirmation again at the end, saying that they they're happy with it at all to be out there. I think most people are happy. I mean, once they've made the the commitment of actually being recorded, I think they they're happy to kind of talk about whatever. There have been instances with, um, mainly the the the youth recordings, where, um, we've got a a youth interviewer say 18 19 Talking to somebody that's never been recorded [00:16:00] before And some of the stuff that comes out you as an executive producer, I'd be going. Oh, my goodness. You know, actually, we don't really want that out there. It's like, actually the the the whole idea with and is not to, um not to make an environment where it actually hurts the participants. It's basically yeah, you're basically wanting to put the story out there, but you're not wanting to to endanger them. So I just didn't like growing up gay in Danny Burke at all, And it just felt so ostracised from the rest of [00:16:30] the world because Danny Burke is an hour away from Palmerston North and an hour and a half away from Hastings. And so you were pretty much in the middle of fucking nowhere. So, um, would you like to give a tell us more of your experience with a fling or a relationship that you've had one for a fling relationship either to OK, Earlier on this year, I, um I got really sick, but before I got really sick, um, I got this fellow from fielding [00:17:00] and he was very, very nice But he was also very, uh, he wasn't. He was like, how old he was 25 and so I didn't care because he was a traitor. And he was just like, Hey, you wanna hook up? Sure. And so, um, I snuck out for the first time in my life. It's fucking difficult, especially when I'm positioned. I'm like, right next to my parents' bedroom, and they have to all the way around them. And so that happened, and then we pretty much I hopped on his car and, [00:17:30] um, we pretty much just drove to the reserve and we had tea in his car every once in a while. But what happened was like After the first night I met him, I got really sick. Not about the first night, but first night we met and stuff and we talked and he said, Oh, let's be in a relationship. And I was like, OK, it was all happy And but I got really sick. And I was sick for weeks, and it was really bad. I couldn't go to school. And what happened was after, [00:18:00] um after I got better, Um because during the entire time I was sick. I was still like I couldn't move my arm. I couldn't move this half of my body. Um, very much in it at all. But I still snuck out and, you know, had sex with him. Because what do you do? And if I didn't, he would have got mad. And by the time I got, I actually got better and was able to go visit him and his family that he wanted me to. What happened was, uh what happened? That's right. And he told me that he broke up with [00:18:30] me because as I was sick, I had gained too much weight, and he wasn't attracted to me anymore. And I would I hit the roof. I was just like, Fuck! Fuck you! Fuck you! Then fuck off! Go away. Go away! Go away! Go, go, go, go! And then I just, like, slid him to the side that at the end of that story, So, um, what is your definition of virginity? Virginity? Ok, um, my definition of virginity is not the first person you had sex with, because I even I got even though I got a girl pregnant, [00:19:00] I didn't constitute that as my virginity because I wasn't bisexual or straight. Um, I constitute my virginity. It was the first time I had anal sex with a man that wasn't rape. Yeah, So there's what's kind of going on there. Um, so I act as the, um, executive producer. So So we had Ben who went and recorded these interviews, and there was about 70 of them around the North Island. Then [00:19:30] he would give the audio to me, and I and I would just go through and just make sure that there weren't like, if there were full names, I would take out the full name and put just, you know, first name or no name, um, or if there was stuff that really had, um, that put the interviewee in trouble. II. I would kind of remove that as well, but But then you'd want to kind of keep the, you know, the honesty. I mean, that's the That's the thing about those those kind of recordings. And you said there when you heard that [00:20:00] you were thinking there are other questions to unpack. So one of them is about the fact that he was really sick. And then there was the power dynamic, you know, being pressured into sex. And then there was the last comment about, you know, um, rape not being classed as, you know, the virgin. And so is that the same recording as as on the website or with all that content, which is quite quite a lot going on. I mean, the thing I have done for these examples is I've actually made them just a wee bit more concise. And so, [00:20:30] um I mean, there's a there's a wee bit more material around that, but yeah, and this one's from the beyond Rainbows. No, this is from Q 12, which was a series of 70 interviews around the North Island. And we did a similar thing with the South Island, but only got around about about 30 interviews. And why is that one called Q 12? Sorry, it was, um, 2012, and we were kind of using the word queer at the time. But we've moved away from using the word queer because, um, [00:21:00] it seems to be less inclusive than rainbow. So we're using rainbow now as as a more kind of inclusive term. But, um, it's it's very hard because There are so many different terms around sexuality and gender to actually work out. You know, if you just want to talk, you know, in an overall sense, it's very hard to find a particular word or an acronym. Um, so rainbow seems to be kind of less problematic. Yeah. What we find that queer is is is quite, um is [00:21:30] more politically charged, I think. Yeah. So that brings us to the issue of labelling and labelling on pride NZ you tag? Can you tell us about how you choose tags? So the names that you use and the words that you use Well, one of the the issues with audio online is that, um it's it's, uh it's really unsearchable in terms of like Google. So, um, at the moment, there's a very brief description about each audio interview. Might [00:22:00] be one or two sentences, but then, as as I kind of post produce the material, I'm just tagging, um, you know, whether it's about, you know, the the the basically, the tags are thinking in line of as a user. How would you, you know, is this of interest to a particular user group? So, like I mean, even if somebody didn't kind of identify themselves as gay, I would tag it as gay because it might be of interest to gay people. Um, and that's quite interesting, because yeah, [00:22:30] it's from the user's point of view. And it's also from Google's point of view. You basically want to make the the information, um, searchable. Um, so the next best best best thing to a transcript is is tags, I guess. Yeah. So how do you decide to focus? You've got this very wide umbrella, Rainbow Communities, and you've got terms like Beyond Rainbows. Can you tell us a bit about beyond Rainbows Project? Yeah. The Beyond Rainbows was a, um, project. [00:23:00] Um, one of the, uh, contract interviewers, uh, was very interested in looking at minorities within minorities. So, minorities, uh, it could be, um, religion. It could be, um, mental health. It could be, um, alcohol. Use all those, you know, a whole variety of things. And just how do people, um, fit in to a minority if they are feeling a bit different? Um, so, um and and that those stories [00:23:30] aren't really told that often. Um and so Griz started doing that a couple of years ago, and it's kind of expanded. So I think we've got about 30 different stories now on a whole range of, of, of different, um, kind of aspects of minority. Um, and I just love it. It comes back to that peer interviewing where, as a white male, I couldn't get that material. But actually, um, getting, um, interviewers within those communities to interview each other is actually really [00:24:00] is really good. And just because they are, people ask different questions. You know that that they have different points of view and it's like, Well, actually, you know, I. I don't want to hear my point of view or my questions all the time. So how do you decide to focus? We talked a little bit about funding. Yeah, so focus. Like with with pride. And it is, um, it's basically trying to capture a really diverse range of voices and experiences. Um, but often if [00:24:30] you go for grants, so at the moment, a lot of it's just personal, Personally funded, it's not through grants or through an organisation. Um, if it is a grant, you generally have to, um, align your project with whatever the the funding. So, like, I mean in the beyond rainbows we did more youth interviewing because actually, that's where the money is. Um, but actually, I, I would suggest that there's probably, you know, so many untapped stories in the middle aged to older age group of Rainbow communities that [00:25:00] that. But that's not very attractive in terms of funding. So that OK, I tried to collect those stories, and it's hard to get. It's It's really hard. It's it's so hard. And, um, I mean, there should be funding for youth projects. Um, but then there also Also, there should also be funding for middle aged and older projects. Um, I don't think people stop having issues once they hit 25. Speaking of it, should we play either Donna or Ruth Now? [00:25:30] I think Donna would be great. Dana was a contemporary of Carmen. If you're different, you don't go near a policeman because they're God unto themselves. You know, there's one here that used to arrest me nearly every night of the week, you know, take me to the cells and make me dress and undress for every person that worked there and then to make it his business. I'd fall asleep to wait till the next lot came on, and he'd make me wake me up and make me do it all over again. And there was nothing I could do [00:26:00] about it. No matter how I protested, there was nothing I could do about it. He was God. You couldn't if you they he'd say, um, get in the car And I'd say, But I've done nothing wrong. He'd say, Get in the car. I'd say I've done nothing wrong. If you don't get in the car, I'll have you up for for hampering a policeman in his line of duty. So get in the car and he'd make his drivers because he always you had underlings with them and they'd be the ones that he'd make. Arrest me, not him. And he'd make the guy speed off. And, of course, we're talking [00:26:30] sixties, you know, 63 456. And there was no seat belts, and he'd tear make him tear around at 80 miles an hour around the streets. And I hated speed. And he he knew your Achilles' heels, you see, And he knew I hated speed. Unless I'm in charge of it, and I can control it. And he'd be abusing me, calling me a shirt lifter, which I didn't even know what it meant. A poo pusher and calling me names. And does your mother know you're a fucking freak and you know, and you fuck ass and I, I don't do that sort of thing. You know, All [00:27:00] this used to really upset me, and then he'd make him pull into an alleyway and turn on the lights. Of course, it's dark in there and I turn on the inside light and you can see yourself in the in the window of the car and he'd push my face and and push it and push it and push it into the window until I said, fuck off or pig or something. Go Gotcha! In a recent arrested arrested, you know, that's what they called you. It rest the [00:27:30] She's pretty amazing, like, yeah, I mean, there's nothing like that kind of first hand narrative, you know, like you were talking about. You know, those those those narratives, those voices, that stories are that that aren't told. Um, you mentioned she was a contemporary of Carmen, but not everyone will know who Carmen is here. Ok? Yes. So, um, Carmen was a, um transgender, uh, proprietor of a a, um, a bar and a nightclub and a brothel in Wellington [00:28:00] and was a real, um, really amazing kind of business woman and was, um, very staunch on, um, human rights. And, uh, was a a real advocate for a lot of kind of minority groups. Um, who passed away about four or five years ago? Yeah. Um, so, Carmen, sort of nearly like the glamorous public side of some of these stories. And like what was really going on for a lot of people, you know, I don't know. Carmen [00:28:30] told stories like this about this kind of experience. Well, it's interesting, because I did a documentary for Public radio on Carmen featuring Donna and Carmen's interviews in the archive were all very, um, kind of light. She was saying, Even though she went to prison, she had a great time because, you know, the superintendent made her make coffee and, you know, take care of everything. And, um, it was always it was it never went into that kind of darkness that Donna goes into. And it was really nice to put Dana next to in the in the documentary [00:29:00] so that you could actually hear. Well, actually, there was a hell of a lot of darkness in there. Um, and yeah, I think Dana expresses it pretty well. Yeah, so we'll start to wrap up a little. Now, I think, um, the final question I want to ask before we play a little bit of Ruth and get some audience response is is pride NZ dot com an archive. I think as soon as you say archive, then it sets up all these expectations that it's going to be there forever. And as a, um, something [00:29:30] that's personally funded. Um, that's just not That's not the case, you know, like I mean, when I go, it will kind of go in its form. It's more. It's something before an archive. So it works in alongside something like the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand. So it's more a creator of content. It captures stories and it puts them out there, and the whole idea of visibility is really important. So basically it it's a it's a capturing device, it's a platform. And then then we'll move [00:30:00] those into an archive. At some point, an archive is there to basically keep them there forever. Um, so no, it's not. It's not an archive at all, although I mean in its in its state now it is in some ways because, I mean, people can go and search it and you know, it's accessible. And and you've talked about to me about, uh, high quality MP3 audio. And your hope, really, is that people can download it, take it away, do other things with it, and is that right? Or you hope they won't do [00:30:30] other things with it? What are the risks of this kind of platform? I mean, I think the reason for having the high quality MP threes available online is, um, knowing that they will be archived somewhere. So it's not kind of putting all your eggs in one basket saying, Hey, here's an archive in New Zealand that will hold on to this material. It's saying, Well, at the moment, the materials all publicly accessible. Um, if somebody was to download those MP threes and store them in Germany or California, um, I wouldn't have an issue [00:31:00] with that, and I know that in 100 years time, they will exist somewhere. It might be dispersed around the world somewhere, but actually, they will exist. Um, hopefully they won't just be these orphan files. I mean, they'll have some context around them, hopefully, but, um, yeah, Do you have a framework in terms of Creative Commons or some other kind of, you know, um, copyright or licencing kind of framework that you've entered into, And it's interesting. I mean, I mean, I would be I would hope that if somebody wanted to use the material, they would come back to me and say, [00:31:30] Can we use this material? Because all the all the recordings I mean, it's set up as a nonprofit so that actually people record knowing that they're basically putting it out there in public. Um, nobody's going to make any money from it, and it's going to be there for, you know, the greater good. Um, nobody at the stage has come to me and said, I want to use this material in the book or in another way. I think if that was the case, I would then go back to the interviewees and say, you know, is that is that cool? Um, but because it's it [00:32:00] was established in 2009, so it's still very early, and I think those kind of conversations will happen in the next few years. And finally, that that notion that you raised with me the right to be forgotten might might arise in a digital archive. So someone at a young they're quite young. They're happy to have their stuff and be transitioning. But at some future point, I think you've had someone come to you and say, Actually, I want that taken down now. Yeah, or or even just their name removed because there was [00:32:30] a young Trans person that was happy to talk three years ago, has transitioned now and actually is passing. They want to not be associated with that recording. And I find that really interesting in terms of digital media, digital archiving, being different from other and particularly young users putting themselves out there online and not really thinking, perhaps that at some point I might want that removed or I might want that to be forgotten. And what are the implications of that? So we'll [00:33:00] play one short final piece of audio. We're hoping you might respond to it. So have a real listen to them because it's it's quite something. And now I was thinking when I was listening to this about Siobhan M, who's a radio scholar from Australia, and she talks about, uh, the grain of the voice and how important hearing the grain of the voice is and that's that's from. And he uses it in slightly different context to but nevertheless, close your eyes and have a listen. I have a cousin [00:33:30] that I found that we didn't know had lived through the war, right? I mean, everybody got separated and things, and he was with them at Auschwitz as a teenager and he lived, you know, because they weren't rounded up till June 44. And so if you were lucky and you, you know, then you could maybe live. It was only a year more, and he did, and, [00:34:00] uh, he had been there and I couldn't believe it. I did this except for one phone call I had with him. It was all via the net, and it would be at work. I didn't have a home computer then, and I would be a wash with feelings and stumbling next door. But he he told the story about the because I don't know anything [00:34:30] about my paternal grandmother, and he he'd known her. He was a teenager, so I asked him questions. You know, what would they have thought of a lesbian granddaughter? What do you think? You know, like, I carried their MIT at her mitochondrial genes. You know, I had no idea anything about her, but he did know. And he said to me, Firstly, I found [00:35:00] it so moving, uh, that these Jewish men, they spoke Yiddish, and they came on to the train cars when they got to Auschwitz, and they said to them, which was my family, Uh, give the Children to the old women. And it was, of course, because they were going to kill the Children. They were going to kill the old women. So the only chance that the young mothers had was [00:35:30] to give the Children to the old women. I mean, it's so obvious they were helping them. Couldn't you get angry? The times I wanted to pick up a Anyway. He said the last time he saw my grandmother, she was surrounded by all of her grandchildren. I was already alive [00:36:00] in the Bronx. I am one of her grandchildren. It fell to me to tell their story because they were no buddies. They had no money. They weren't rich. They weren't Rothschilds. They never went to school. They were people. And they certainly didn't deserve summary executions. I became a lawyer. [00:36:30] I fought for justice.

IRN: 892
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TITLE: Tighe Instone - homosexual law reform
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VOICES: Tighe Instone
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 1980s; Alan Wallbank; Alison Lash; Alison Laurie; Anti Springbok tour march (1985); Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Barbara Goodman; Bigot Busters conference (1985, Wellington); Bigot Busters rally (1985, Wellington); Bill Logan; Brett Rawnsley; Campaign for Homosexual Equality (CHE); Campaign to Pardon Gays in Aotearoa; Carmen Rupe; Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Christchurch; Coalition in Support of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill; Coalition of Concerned Citizens; Courtenay Place; Criminal Records (Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences) Act 2018; Cynthia Bagwash; Daniel Fielding; David Hindley; David Zwartz; Des Dalgety; Di Cleary; Dominion (newspaper); Dorian Society; Douglas Jenkin; Erich Geiringer; Evening Post (newspaper); First Past the Post (electoral system); Fran Richardson; Fran Wilde; Gavin Young; Gay BC (Wellington Access Radio); Gay Task Force; Geoff Braybrooke; George Gair; Graeme Lee; HIV / AIDS; Heterosexuals Unafraid of Gays (HUG); Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Human Rights Act (1993); Human Rights Commission; Inland Revenue Department; Jac Lynch; James Heslop; John Templer; Jools Topp; Judith Christensen; Judy Keall; Katherine O'Regan; Keith Hay; Lambda Centre (Wellington); Lesbian Action for Visbility Aotearoa (LAVA); Lesbian Coalition; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Lesbian and Gay Rights Resource Centre; Linda Evans; Lockwood Smith; Lynda Topp; MMP (mixed-member proportional electoral system); Malcolm McAlister; Margaret Shields; Marxism; Member of Parliament; Michael Fowler Centre; Michael Wilson; National Gay Rights Coalition; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF); Norman Jones; Paddy Delany; Paekākāriki; Parliament buildings; Pastor Martin Niemoller; Pat Downey; People with AIDS Collective; Peter Tait; Pink Triangle collective; Porleen Simmonds; QUILTED BANANAS (Wellington Access Radio); RNZAF Base Shelly Bay; Radio New Zealand; Radio Windy; Rangimoana Taylor; Rape Crisis; Reformed Churches of New Zealand; Royal New Zealand Air Force; Royal Oak Hotel; Ruth Charters; Ruth Dyson; Salvation Army; Sonja Davies; Springbok rugby tour (1981); St Andrew's on the Terrace; Syd Jackson; Tavern bar (Royal Oak Hotel); Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington; Tighe Instone; Tiriti o Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi; Tony Taylor; Topp Twins; Trades Hall; Trevor Mallard; Trish Mullins; Very Rev John Murray; Victoria Club; Waitangi; Wellington; Wellington Gay Task Force; Wellington Lesbian Centre; Wellington Town Hall; Wesley church hall; Women Against Pornography; Women's National Abortion Action Campaign (WONAAC); Women's Refuge; activism; age of consent; attack; butch; celebration; church; closeted; coming out; communication; communism; community; computers; conscience vote; convictions; crime; criminalisation; dance; dance party; demonstrations; deviant; discrimination; diversity; drag; drag kings; employment; feminism; friends; funeral; gay; government; homophobia; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; human rights; humanism; invisibility; law; leather; lesbian; mailing list; media; meetings; mental health; newspapers; parents; pervert; police; politics; prejudice; protest; public servant; radio; rationalism; religion; rugby; self esteem; sex work; sexism; social; socialism; telegrams; television; university; visibility; women
DATE: 21 June 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Tighe talks about being part of various groups that rallied in support of homosexual law reform.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: 1986. For me, it would be easier to start at the beginning. In March 1985 when the homosexual law reform bill was introduced into Parliament because it had been a secret. Up until that point, Fran didn't want the any opposition people or people that might possibly oppose it. We thought we thought there'd be huge opposition, which, of course, there was eventually but, uh, immediately, But, um, she [00:00:30] wanted to keep it a secret until until she introduced it into Parliament. And that was it was the beginning of the first week in March 1985. And how were you involved in that? Well, um, Linda Evans called a meeting of the lesbian coalition. Um, about a month before the bill was introduced to gauge, uh, lesbian interest in, um, and, you know, and working to support the bill. And [00:01:00] I went along to that meeting primarily because, um, I think you know, in those days, um, in the in the, um, in the bar scene, um, around, particularly around the royal oak, Um, the lesbians and gay men. Uh, So and, um, things like Carmen's coffee shop there was I don't know whether that was still going in in the eighties. But but, you know, through the seventies, anyway, we had the Dorian Club. That was and it [00:01:30] was mixed it. Sometimes it wasn't. Sometimes it wasn't. But we socialised much more with the gay men than perhaps lesbians did later at at the time of the introduction of home sexual law reform. And I had been part of that scene where we socialise a lot with with the gay guys. Uh, particularly in the I loved the tavern bar in the Royal Oak Hotel. I It was something else. It was fabulous. It was all noise and juke, Boxx and smoke and [00:02:00] be a It was something. And such a diverse group of people, you know, there were under undercover cops. There were, um, the prostitutes running in through, in, in and out from the the, uh, bistro in in front. There were the drag queens. There were the gay men. There were lesbians who were Salvation Army. With their war cry. It was it was just something else. It was pandemonium, and and then in amongst all that, there were all the crims and druggies and people like that and, [00:02:30] um But I had, um I was aware that two dear friends of mine who were gay had had, um, you know, charges against them. Uh, one of them was convicted. I'm not quite sure where the other one was was convicted or not, but he lost his job anyway, and And that And that was devastating for him. He was in the Air Force, and and he was It was a source [00:03:00] of great pride to him that he was in the Air Force And when and what the Air Force used to do was they didn't sack people. If something like this happens, and they got very, very good lawyers, and they usually got them off, But then they didn't renew the contract. And and I, I think probably that's what happened to him. But I'm not absolutely certain. Um and so I had watched it and observed how wrecked those two friends lives were [00:03:30] by this law. And I was determined that I was going to be involved in getting rid of it. So Linda called the meeting of the Les Lesbian Coalition. Yeah. So tell us about that meeting. Well, what She was what she was canvassing was interest, and it was There were there were a huge diversity and lesbian reaction to it. Some, some lesbians didn't want to have anything to do with it. Some lesbians, um, felt that it would be what usually [00:04:00] seemed to happen was the lesbians doing all the work and the gay media getting all the benefit. And, um, there was going to be a human rights clause, which would, uh, there were two clauses. The decriminalisation of of the law and then, um, coverage from by the Human Rights Commission. But, um, a lot of people weren't. A lot of a lot of lesbians were weren't interested in that didn't want to be included in the law. [00:04:30] So we were much better outside of the law. We were much better as outlaws. And, um so and so some other other lesbians thought we should be working on on other issues, Not this one at all. And so, uh, IA a diverse reaction to it among among lesbians. Anyway, I com I committed myself to being involved, and we needed to to find some lesbians who were prepared [00:05:00] to go along to the gay task force meetings to, um so that there was a, uh, you know, communication between the two groups, and most people didn't want to do that, But I sort of figured because I was used to, um, well, had been used to to I wasn't an activist at this stage. I might I might tell you, um that I was used to socialising with the gay guys. It wouldn't bother me. And, um, so I volunteered. And me and [00:05:30] Pauline Simmons and Alison Laurie and Linda Evans and later Julie and, um, Alison Lash. I think I think she was involved in that, um and we always made sure at least two of us went to those meetings. And, uh so that was that was one of the decisions. I think that was made at that. It was certainly made very early on that we that we'd have the, you know, maintain the communication and and and, uh, work [00:06:00] alongside support any issues that we wanted to do. But later, you see, once once the bill was was introduced, um, and and it was it it it had only just been introduced. And the and and the reaction immediately started and and there were two MP um, bank. I think his name was and Oh, no, there were four MP. Um, Norman Jones. Um oh, the one from Napier. What was his name? [00:06:30] I can't remember. But anyway, four MP S immediately got involved in the opposition to the, um, to the and the, uh what His name was Keith, Keith Hay and Peter Tate. Sir Peter Tate of the Marine Land. Keith Hay of Keith Hay Homes. They set up the coalition, Um, the of concerned citizens. Yeah. And And these four MP, um of which Norman Jones, The [00:07:00] mouth from the South. And Alan. Although he faded, he and the the one from Napier. And I can't think who the other one was. There was another one. There were four of them. Um, so they all got and and announced in through the media that they were going to get a million signatures against this bill by the end of May. And the next thing that happened for us was that some of the young gay men who'd been part [00:07:30] of the national gay rights um, coalition formed a group in Wellington because, of course, I'm only talking about Wellington. I'm not talking about what was happening in other places. Um formed a group called, um, campaign for homosexual equality. And that was Gavin, Young and, um, Douglas Jenkin and, um, a whole lot of needs and they [00:08:00] were fabulous. They were, and they were very aware of sexism. And actually, that was one of the best groups to work with I. I remember Gavin Young when in in the the following October, when it was Linda's birthday, he baked a cake for Linda for her birthday and brought it along to the meeting. I mean, you know, they were just darling guys, they were fabulous. And the the the gay task force wasn't quite so easy to work in. And Bill Logan's No, no doubt [00:08:30] spoken a lot about that because it was again. It was such a diverse group of people, and, um, the a lot of the see a lot of the older, very conservative gay men All they wanted was the decriminalisation. They didn't want to know about the politics of it. They just and they didn't care what age it was. And they thought the lesbians came along to the meetings and had far too much to say. So as [00:09:00] a lesbian going to the gay task force you were reporting back to the Lesbian Coalition. Is that right? So how how often would the lesbian coalition meet and what What were they really interested in with this? Well, originally, I think probably about once a month. We I said, I tell you, we were meeting out after about three weeks. We had meetings just about every night of the week, sometimes two or three. And because I mean, this is just the beginning. The the next thing, the hug, [00:09:30] the heterosexuals unafraid of gays for well, that's a bit that's a bit down the track. But we decided that we weren't all that. And the the name hug was coined in in Auckland by Barbara Goodman, who who started it all with with, you know, very, very good reason. But the the trouble was that they were putting out a lot of stuff that that we didn't really, uh, always quite agree with. And we thought it [00:10:00] would be good if if we had an umbrella that that brought them in, you know, with so that everybody sort of had had a, uh, um had an understanding of of the political implications of all this. And so we set up what was called the coalition in support of the bill. Now, that was a a gay task force initiative. And, um, Bill Logan and I were for the, um, inaugural meeting of that. We were the We were the two, [00:10:30] sort of, um, the lesbian and the gay man to to get to to get that off the ground. And so So now we had the lesbian coalition we had. Shay can campaign for home equality. We had The gay task was we had to go to all these meetings to see what was said. We didn't go to the hug meetings, but sometimes we were invited to go along for as a speaker. But then they did they want. They didn't want you to speak about the politics of the thing at the hug meetings. That's why it was it was good [00:11:00] to sort of bring them into the into the coalition, but and the CO The coalition was fabulous. I was involved in the coalition, right from the word go and and I I'll tell you what it was a huge learning curve for me because as I say, I wasn't an activist, but I had to get involved. All the women's groups, the rape crisis, the refuge women, Um, all the unions, as Russia and and all the, um all the churches and I met so many [00:11:30] people and that the the, uh, Marxists the the, um you know, we had the the Communists and the Trotskyites and the it was it was in. And the socialist Socialist action people. Oh, wow, it was I. I tell you, it was incredible. And and we we were a force to be reckoned with, actually. And we had there was a drag queen called Leonie who who wore live stockings. We thought it was live stockings and who was a public servant and was a in [00:12:00] the on the this This is precomputer days. I think we have to remember that too. So all the the, um, communication was either phone or by mail, and Leon was worked in public service doing filing and and did a card indexing system with all our contacts on it. It was, and it was the the best contact list in the country. And Brett Raley eventually put that con contact list onto [00:12:30] computer because he had a very one of the very early computers. But But way back in 85 you know, we didn't have any computers, no cell phones, just just ordinary telephones. And And Leonie did that and and we started a mailing list for the for the coalition. And, um, the photocopiers were, you know, in the businesses. And so if anybody had access to a photocopier and one [00:13:00] of the places that we did a lot of photocopying Well, Anne Frank was NZ U A. Yes, yes, they were marvellously support. The students were wonderful. Trish Mullins was she was in the coalition. Well, she was one of the ones that helped get the opera house ready. But anyway, uh, and Linda worked at the, um at the Broadcasting library, and I and I had an awful old typewriter that used to belong to the [00:13:30] Women's Cricket Association. That wasn't it wasn't very good. Uh, and so I used to go in and use her good typewriters in in her office, and and and then I'd often photocopy copies on her photocopier. And I remember one time the these people that were looking around you know they they were going to conduct a tour of the public service or something. I don't know. And somebody knew me and said, Oh, Tiggy didn't know you worked here. Linda said she doesn't very indignantly. [00:14:00] Do you think a lot of public service resource went into supporting the campaign? Yes, but don't tell a soul because I was always doing these press releases, you see, So I'd write and I'd make these little headings the way I made headings because I had, you know, we didn't have computers to, you know, to be able to use all those different fonts. So I'd write it about three or four times, whatever [00:14:30] the subject was at the top, and then the day and the what it was it was to and everything and then write these media releases. And then it was so easy because the TV was right there. The the broadcast, the radio broadcasting was right there. Then rush up to the evening post and the Dominion offices and and and drop them in, you see, So Linda was in a very strategic position and drop them into any other radio station like radio windy or something like that that we wanted [00:15:00] to too. It sounds really fun, actually. A lot of it. A lot of it was fun, Jack. It really it really was. And we had our post office box at the box was at the Manor Street post office. So I had to go in there regularly to, And I'll tell you something else. That was really, really nice when we said sorry about cleaning that when we when we set up the coalition in support of the bill. Um, and we had the, um first of all, we had this great rally. But first of all, we had the the rally at the Trades Hall. That was the the inaugural launch. [00:15:30] Then we then from that, we organised the opera house meeting, and then we we suddenly discovered we were overs spent. We'd we'd run out of money. So we did this big appeal. Um, what was his name? Can't think of his name. He wrote it for us. It's signed by me, but I didn't write it. He wrote such a good I can't think it doesn't matter. And And we sent this appeal everywhere and the first person and we and we got all this money. In the end, we never spent all [00:16:00] the money. We had so much money we never spent until we gave it to the AIDS Foundation. What was what? You know what we didn't spend? But we never had to worry about money again in that coalition. And we had we organised rallies at parliament, the parliament grounds and all sorts of things, and and went to the the the signing of the, uh, the the presentation of the of the petition. Um, but but as I say, we never had to worry again. And the first donation that I opened was from David Schwartz, who's the spokesperson [00:16:30] for the for the Jewish community here. And we, of course, were always, um um quoting pastor thing. You know, they came for the this one. They came for that one and and perhaps I'm jumping ahead a bit because I should say before that it would have been in in May. I think that they started that the the people the oppose the concerned citizens started calling meetings all over the country to oppose the and they had one in the town [00:17:00] hall in Wellington. I'll tell you what you'd have loved it. It was we went along with a policy of that. We would either laugh or sing, and we you know, we wouldn't We wouldn't let them upset us in any way. And it was the town hall. And well, in the old town Hall was absolutely packed. There were There were so many policemen. You have no idea. And oh, and die Cleary and somebody else from dressed up as nuns. And because we were told if you if you got out [00:17:30] of your seat, you, um you were going to be arrested and clear And this other woman all dressed up as nuns went walking down the aisle. Oh, the police didn't know what to do. And we were all cheering and waving and oh, we had song sheets as well. So and, um and I had a sign that, um, that I kept on holding holding up to say, um, I. I can't remember what I can't remember [00:18:00] what it was on. It might have. Might have said cheer. I can't Can't remember now. So so that every time I held up my sign Ray and and or somebody would get up and say Number two. So Number two on the song sheet and away we'd go and at that meeting Norman Jones. But that's that's the meeting. When he told us all to get back to our sewers when we came from, it was that meeting and he was a, um, a lawyer, and he he had a particularly mean, but I can't remember what he said. [00:18:30] But there was a doctor, Doctor Delaney. He actually gave up halfway through his speech because there was so much noise because he was saying we were all the product of mothers that had had measles during pregnancy. Where does he go to doctor school? I know, I know. It was it was incredible. And when he when he didn't get the opportunity to finish his speech, he went to the Evening post [00:19:00] and he had it print published in full in the evening post. And then Tony, Tony, Tony, somebody or other, I can't remember what his other name was, who was a psychologist at Vic. He wrote an article that that opposed what Doctor Delaney said. And of course, there were all these letters to the news paper, and I used to say the thing is that something else that because this all was happening in a very different environment to the one we know today. And the the, [00:19:30] um, the majority, Many, many people were closer, you know, were not out at work, were not out to their parents and were not out to their landlords. In fact, these three groups of people were what we used to talk about a lot. You know, how do you cope with your landlord? How? Because you could get thrown out of your flat. Um, if if you were gay or lesbian, Um, and you know, parents was a particularly difficult area. And where you know, your workplace [00:20:00] me was another. Another difficult area. So So it was It wasn't like today where, um where people? Um uh I mean, there's still there's still prejudice, but people are not quite so nervous about about being, you know, it's not, it's it's not quite as as prejudiced today. Far, far, far less. So, in fact, I think and so So that's the environment that all this was happening happening in and at the same [00:20:30] time. I mean, up until this point, you never saw the word lesbian, for example, published in the newspaper. They wouldn't publish it or the telephone book. Um, and all of a sudden it's It's in newspapers. In our letter boxes, it's on the television. It's on the radio. It's everywhere. There were, um, all along, um manner, Manor Street. There were tables, um, for petition for people to sign the petitions. They they took the petition door to door, [00:21:00] knocked on they they undertook to knock on every door in the country to gather signatures for the position that they were going to get a, uh, a million signatures on. And so the thing that bothered me very early on was that because I I had I had done my psychiatric training. I was worried about self esteem, and I was worried about the self esteem of our community and, [00:21:30] um, which, as were other people. And so we decided we had to do things that were going to cheer ourselves up. So at the same time as the as the anti were were organising their rallies against the bill, we were organising visibility rallies to cheer ourselves up. You know, getting the top twins to come down to Wellington to to entertain us and all sorts of people. There was a a guy that did the most wonderful Norman [00:22:00] Jones takeoff, for example. We had the bigger busters. We had the Bigger Busters Conference and the bigger Busters rally and and things. We had a big rally. We had big rally in May and another big rally and the biggest bigger Busters conference was in August and a and a big rally and conference then So So there was an awful lot happening, and it and it happened very suddenly to a community that really wasn't wasn't prepared and was was the very, [00:22:30] um, not quite sure how to handle it. So 1985 was a hugely busy year for you? Yes, it was. But I'll tell you what helped, too. We at ABC was going and the lesbian radio programme. We did lots of stuff on on on those two radio programmes and as well there was Pink triangle was keeping everybody up to date with it, and the first I think the 1st march that we had through Oh, I have to tell you this. The the first match I think we had was in May, [00:23:00] but What was amazing about that was that at the same time as this was happening what the word contemporaneously. Good word was the possibility of another Springbok tour. And, um so there were lots of marches on Friday nights, Um, against the Springbok tour. So we had alternative Friday nights. Where? 11 weekend, one Friday. Goodness me. One [00:23:30] Friday night, we'd march against the Springbok tour the next Friday night and and we tell everybody we're having a march next Friday. We'd rush around with pamphlets so we'd come back and and march against the, uh to support the homosexual law reform bill. So it it was a busy time. It was a busy time. Did you find yourself in the media a bit? Yes. And that was something new to me. Um, because I, you know, I started off. I wasn't [00:24:00] act. So I was just a lesbian that went to the pub and had lots of friends. And I'd been around Wellington for years. Um, so so? And I didn't perceive myself as a I at the beginning. I'll tell you something. At the beginning of that campaign, I did not perceive myself as an activist at the end. I did That was it. It was a life changing experience for me, But, I mean, it was a long campaign. It went right through until the following year until you know what? What we're going [00:24:30] to be celebrating, um, in 1986 when the bill was actually passed. How did you find the media When you were, um, when they were approaching you for comment or getting involved? What? How did you find them? In terms of their support or otherwise? I don't know that they approached me personally for comment. I think we had the spokespeople, and Alison and Bill were the spokespeople for the task force. And I think Gavin did a lot of the being [00:25:00] the spokesperson for Shay um campaign for, um, that that was the campaign. The coalition in support of I did a lot of media releases and got and did a lot of letters to the editor and letters to all sorts of people. Letters to the IRD saying that the Reform church wasn't really a it was a it was a political organisation disguise, and they shouldn't have tax exemption. We wrote one letter I thought that was a good one. And so you you were more the the sort of person who was who was churning out [00:25:30] the media releases behind the scenes during the treasurer of the coalition has supported the bill because we had we had a a treasurer, and then he resigned. So I just took that over in the In the meantime, during the year, did you be because you were so involved in these things? Did you find that it affected you at work or, um, in your home, like your landlord didn't turn against you or, uh, I had my own home. I lived in at the time, but I was always rushing down to Wellington, and [00:26:00] I was working part time, which was helpful because it gave me a lot of I was working most of most weeks. I was working three days a week, but sometimes I had to work a full time week. But, um, that was that. That enabled me to, um, be as involved as I was and just just finding out a little bit more about how the lesbians, um the different factions within the lesbians were supporting this or maybe just sitting on the fence and so on. Um, did you [00:26:30] find yourself having great debates with with lesbians within the community? Not personally, but there were a lot of debates happening. But I'll tell you what, I wasn't politically aware enough to debate the issues at that stage. I let other people I remember when, um when we had the launch of the coalition and I was the lesbian speaker at this launch. So I I wrote my you know, my speech notes, and I wanted another lesbian to say that they were OK. And I [00:27:00] went along to a meeting that was at the Lesbian Centre in Wigan Street to see if I can find somebody to go over my notes and and and approve them. And they were all people that proposed looking, opposed supporting the bill at all. But anyway, a woman called Rose, who lots of lots of people, know who lives in America now. She read it for me. She said to you, I think that'll be fine. I've always been very grateful to Rose. So 1985 busy year preparing everything and [00:27:30] and all the, um, the the protests on the other side and dealing with all that and then moving into 1986 itself. And in March, um, the third reading, I think of the bill with it. Can you recall sort the rallies or anything around that sort of time? We did. We had a big rally in the Wesley, um, in the in Taranaki street in the Wesley Hall. Um, and Malcolm [00:28:00] McAllister was really responsible for organising that he was part of the the coalition support of the bill. I think I think the year before was the really intense year in terms of, um, in terms of marches, rallies, um, cheering ourselves up, um, going along in a, for example, when the bill, when the signatures that you know the petition was presented at Parliament, we all went along to Parliament to protest, [00:28:30] and we were all fenced off. Oh, can I tell you about that quickly? Because that was That's a funny story because there were a whole lot of women from women against pornography. Ruth Charters got up and gave a speech and said, Quite frankly, I don't think that they had this, you know, this is our land. We are the we are the people and we're being fenced off in in in parliament grounds, which is our land. They have no right to say that we can't walk up there. So five of us, she and, [00:29:00] um 44 of us. We we climbed over the fence and started walking up. The and I was in the middle and we're walking up where we're not supposed to walk. And they were all I have to add that I was dressed up as I had a character called Cynthia Bag Wash and I, um, that I used to go to these rallies for to and and protest and things as And, um So I was Cynthia Bag Wash's daughter, Hank, who was a butch on this occasion. And I'd taken a tape recorder and a microphone [00:29:30] as well. And I was I was tape recording a lot of the proceedings, and I actually tape recorded Ruth's speech and I really sad because somehow it got taped over, but never mind. Um, off we went well and I'm walking along and I've I've got a hat and and and and tie and everything and and bag that Look I looked I don't know I. I mean, I looked ridiculous, But But anyway, the police arrested the two on that side and the two on that side and left me walking around free [00:30:00] to walk wherever. And in the end, I didn't like it over there because I was with all the aunties. So I climbed back over the fence and tell me, Tell me about Cynthia. Big. Tell me about her. Well, she was She was, um she originated when when the human rights commissioner pat down, they set up the the Human Rights Commission in about 1977 and the first Commissioner pat [00:30:30] down. He said that he thought there were some groups that should be discriminated against. And guess who was one of those was the National Gay Rights Rights Coalition wrote to him and which set off Oh, I. I had done a few little protests before 95. We started picking the Human Rights Commission, and so Cynthia Bag was became part, and the funniest thing was that she was a parody of a person. She wasn't a real person at all. [00:31:00] And, um and I'd gone to how she how she originated. I'd gone to a lesbian dance as Cynthia Bag was we used to have dances at. Um I can't think of what was called up in Elizabeth Street and and crossways Crossways. And, um so and and Alison suggested to me that why didn't I take Cynthia bag Wash along to the Human Rights Commission? So it was the middle of the day. So Cynthia Bag Wash wore evening dress and and she wore my aunt's hat that she'd worn to the Melbourne Cup [00:31:30] in about 1938. And and, um, anyway, so if I went But the funny thing was there all these real lesbians and gay men there and and Mr Crisp, his name was Mr Crisp because he said Mr Down, he wasn't available. He wasn't. He wasn't actually there in the office, but he would speak to somebody and and he would speak to me to to and not to me, to who was the only person [00:32:00] there that wasn't a real person. It was absolutely. He was so freaked out about real lesbians and gay men. He chose the one that wasn't wasn't real. So Cynthia came back for, um, for for the the protest and so on to do with the with the homosexual law reform bill going through? Yeah. Cynthia attended a lot of, for example. Cynthia attended We We went and joined the Salvation Army when? Because the Salvation Army picked up the petition, you see, And they were They [00:32:30] were doing a lot of the door to door work, and and so on, everybody went back and asked for their donations back. And that that that floored them a bit. Oh, and we had this wonderful protests down at the Citadel in Vivian Street each Sunday. We we got better at singing the Salvation Army songs, and they were. And we had one That was a a fancy dress that all the Salvation Army kids loved and and anyway, they they had the South Pacific, Um, sort of, I don't know, jamboree [00:33:00] thing Art festival in Wellington. And they had a march from Courtney Place through to, um through the Michael Fowler Centre. So we went and joined. I mean, Linda Evans said, wasn't it good of the Salvation Army to bring this band along for us to march, too? And Cynthia Cynthia Bag was went and marched in in in that and, um, and the Salvation Army all were quite amused and sort of quite warmly received [00:33:30] her. She was there in protest against their thing, but they sort of didn't get it. Um, and and I think it was in October about October 1985. We had I told you we had a rally in the grounds of Parliament. I actually wrote to the speaker and said, Could we have a barbecue in Parliament? And the speaker wrote back and said, No, you can't have a barbecue, but you can bring food. And I This is this is a funny story because somebody a friend This was the coalition in support of the bill. [00:34:00] And somebody had a friend who had a friend who had a tiny, tiny flat up in Hill Street, and and we we got all the food prepared up there. But Fran didn't want us to to it was getting too close. And she didn't want us to have this rally and I I actually was cross. We we we had words, but I won't. I won't go into that. But But But she got the The Victoria Club was a social club. Um, and it was with the Victorian club that we organised [00:34:30] the celebration. That's why it was so difficult. But But anyway, she talked. She talked to to the Victoria Club people and asked them to stop us from. And because they were, they were, um, funding the gay task force. They they were all the rich gay men. Victoria Cup was on Oriental Bay. It was up above the grain of salt. Yeah, it was neat. It was I went there lots of times, and I loved it. And And I loved all the people, [00:35:00] but But once you once you start getting involved in politics, you suddenly got the people that that are not involved in the politics of the thing. Uh, aren't all that thrilled about your your becoming a devotee of of all this stuff anyway, so we they had this meeting and everybody had the flu. This was a different time of the flu because it was some time later that I had the flu. When that thing passed and and and they were they were all too sick or too scared to come to the meeting and it ended up. There was [00:35:30] only me to argue the point and the se About 70 people came from the from the, um, Victoria Club. But I'll tell you what James Hislop and John Templer who's no longer with us they stuck up for me, and, uh, they were absolutely marvellous. And But there was a guy called Daniel Fielding who who was you know, who was really against it. And he was putting the And I didn't like Daniel feeding Fielding at all. And and I thought, you know, he was a writer. [00:36:00] Well, when it came to doing the celebra celebration of the bill that Daniel turned up at that and he said to me and and he lost a lot of weight at that stage, he he was a He was a big guy. Um, when I first met him and did we want to do something about HIV aids and in the Senate. But I, I forget now what it was, but I remember, you know, he asked that something to do with with that, whether we should have some sort of recognition [00:36:30] of of the problems of HIV, aids and I. I thought we should and I can't remember what we did. But But anyway, then I got a pink triangle. Um It was in 1987 and I read an article written by Guess Who Daniel Fielding and I was beside myself. I had no idea that you know that he was HIV positive and and II I felt very I don't know. I just felt very sad because I remember this question he'd asked [00:37:00] me and I thought, you good lad. You know, doing that even though you were bastard back back then. And anyway, then it came up for for the, um, human rights bill and we were doing submissions on the human rights bill, and I went as to represent the Bill. Logan and I represented the gay task force. And then Bill and I supported him. Um, and he was representing people with AIDS, and [00:37:30] we and we stood on either side of of him while he he gave his submission. And he got so upset when he was giving it about telling the treatment that he'd had by his doctor and I ended up with my arms around him and I was crying and he was crying, and I don't know whether Bill was crying, but anyway, we became absolutely firm friends. As a result, and I used to visit him up in up in main Road, and, um, he became very, very So we started off as sworn enemies in [00:38:00] 1985 and ended up as very, very dear friends. And I actually went to his funeral, and it was amazing at his funeral because because start up when his sister spoke and how he'd he'd supported her with her alcohol problem. And when after she finish, everybody clapped. And after that, we clapped everybody that spoke, and it was it was wonderful. He'd have been thrilled. So I just wanted to tell you that about Daniel. I remember his funeral I remember was, um, people could choose to put either rose petals or [00:38:30] leather bits of leather patch in his coffin Worried about what might be found up in the attic. It's fantastic. Um, during the year of 86. Um, no, no, I love these stories. Um, during the year of 86 do you do you recall, um, some of the events during that that year in the lead up to the bill going through? I'll tell you what. It was a quieter year than 85. [00:39:00] We we launched the year with this big, um, a rally at the Wesley Hall. And, um but after that, it was it was much more about media releases and letters to the to To to MP S, and, um II. I was absolutely flat out as secretary of the coalition. Um, I and I'll tell you somebody who was a real story, uh, just to get in so far as MP [00:39:30] when I mentioned MP. Because Fran, of course, Fran Wild. She she was the, um what do you call the promoter of the bill? The people that really, really support her were her office staff, Ruth Dyson and her. She went and worked in Fran's office and Marian, her secretary. And but I think Trevor Mallard was a huge support to to Fran and, um and Judy Keel. Judy Keel was the first MP to come out publicly, and Fran was just so [00:40:00] relieved. You know, that somebody supported her bill. It was one that was gonna be voting on it, saying, you know, it wasn't just gonna be her vote on it, but the other person, because Alison and I went and, uh, lobbied because there was very busy. We're all going up making appointments for the MP S and lobbying them. We we lobbied, Uh, Lockwood Smith and Catherine O'Regan and Catherine O'Regan was always staunch. She was staunch right through and in the end, uh, the only two national party [00:40:30] MP S that did vote for the bill were her and George Ge. But she Fran always knew she had Catherine's vote. And then later she introduced a supplementary order paper for with the Hu for the human rights bill in 1993. So she has always been a great supporter of lesbian and gay rights, and she's a lovely person, too. And, um, I liked her immensely and, um and because we had several meetings with her and, um and Linda was [00:41:00] horrified. National MP Look at you too. You're so pleased with yourself. National MP She said Alison and I came out after the first time we've been to see it And, um, but it was It was it was There were a lot of meetings, a lot of writing letters, a lot of a lot of media releases, um, and stuff. And there was Le Le leading right up to it. There was a lot of worry about the age of consent because we wanted 16 and and we knew [00:41:30] from what had happened in England that they'd had an age of 21 and it took them decades to get rid of that age of 21. And that's a real betrayal to young gay men coming out. And so we were absolutely adamant that it was going to be 16 and we near. I think we nearly lost George Gear's vote because of that. But anyway, in the I can't remember what it was he he said afterwards. You know, um, why he why he he did vote for it in the end. But he was very Dicky about the age, [00:42:00] and, um, there were a lot of a lot of those older gay men that that didn't think it was, that it was a good strategy, but that we were holding out for 16 because they felt that that was going to lose us. The bill, Um, be because even though it was the, you know, the argument was rational and obviously sensible, Um, a lot of people really, [00:42:30] really couldn't cope with it, so this is in a very different environment today, we you know, we were seen as either perverted or deviant or just plain bad, I think. And, um and yeah, it it it it was hard. It was a hard time for the MP S. Not only that, I think the other thing you have to remember is this was not M MP. This was all these MP S came from their electorates, so and [00:43:00] it was a conscience vote. So they were responsible for their vote, not their party. And, um and so a lot of MP S were really, really worried that if they voted for it, they'd lose their seat. But anyway, in the end, they did. So did you go and speak to most of the MP S? No, no I. I only went and lobbied Lockwood Smith, and, um I think, but But somebody was we we actually had a list of them all. And and you know what? Their position [00:43:30] was at the gay task force and people you know volunteered to do this one or that one. That that they they would have all been lobbied in Wellington. That was well organised that Bill Logan organised that the task force So do you. Um, the When the bill actually was going through, Can do you remember the the sort of the day or the night that the bill was actually the third reading? And, um, what was happening? Where were you that that evening [00:44:00] I was in bed with a nice, ghastly flu. And on the funniest thing was that the next morning, I I was better than feeling a bit better the next morning. So I wasn't there when it happened. But I'd been going and sitting in Parliament through the debate, and and sometimes, you know, there were only a couple of us there because it was every Wednesday night, But that Wednesday night that it was I think it was a Wednesday night. It would have been, um I got I got this gusty, [00:44:30] gusty flu and II. I almost wasn't worth it. I wasn't sure, you know, I thought I. I thought I heard on the radio. What did I hear that? But it really happened. And and that's how I came to mess up my tape of of charters. Because I I taped over it because I thought I'll take the news so I can hear it again, you know, after because I I kept I. I really I must have had a raging temperature, I think. But anyway, I into the into the Lambda Centre that we had A the gaming had a, uh, the Lambda [00:45:00] Centre in the, uh in street and And they had the archives upstairs in this old building that's since been pulled down. So I rushed in there, and Tommy was there, and he and he had a table for, um, right through for for months and months and a table for people to sign, um, letters to parliament to parliamentarians. And he took them off and delivered them absolutely fantastic. And he was in there on his own and [00:45:30] somebody I'll never forget. Somebody rang up and said, Well, well, where is everybody on the phone, you know, wanted to speak to somebody. It was somebody from the media, and Tommy said, Well, I think they were all probably in bed. Um, this morning that that it was legal. That's gorgeous. So that that was the next day that you went down to your first thing the next morning. I can't remember. There was some reason that I had to be [00:46:00] there. And but But when the bill was actually passed, I was out out out of my tree with with some awful infection. But everybody else was there having a wonderful time in. So everybody was them bringing me up and saying, Where are you? Pop got a terrible cold. Where had everyone be celebrating? Where did where did they go that night? Do you know you were out of it? Yes. Yes, I was in bed. And so [00:46:30] did you get involved in celebrations after that? Once she came around, we we hired the town hall. Cynthia Bag was was very busy that night. As as was her daughter Hank, who was a butch. And Cynthia turned up, I would have like Hank. Yes, and actually that was fun. Can I tell you a funny story about that? Because Brett Wars and I were in the same class at school as as each other for, um, for one year. He [00:47:00] was in Standard four, and I was in standard six, and it was a composite class anyway. So and Britt was very involved in setting up and helping set up the sound system, see, supervising everything for the celebration of that. I'll tell you what you could write a book about organising the celebration for the homosexual law reform. But it was worse, just about worse than organising the campaign. But But anyway, we we had this wonderful night, and, um and I was, um [00:47:30] I was the MC for the because we had a floor floor, floor show, uh, or concert, sort of. Yeah. And, um And then we had, you know, a big dance afterwards and all sorts of items for the for the concert. And so, first of all, Tiggy instone would come and be the MC, and she wore top hat and tails. Oh, didn't she think she was something else? And then for the next item, um, Cynthia bag wash would come. [00:48:00] So I and then the next item since he bag Wash's daughter who was a butch, came and said So I was constantly just changing my clothes. I didn't actually see any of the concert because I was so busy. And at one time I was getting changed, and Linda Evans was helping me, and she and Brett came and he was trying to tell me something about the sound system. And, um, pardon me, and I, um Linda said to Brett, Brett, Tiggy is getting changed, you know? [00:48:30] And and Brett said ticky doesn't care. We went to school together, and I always thought that was a glorious line. So that that at that party at the town hall was it, like, a week later or or No, it it took us quite a while to get it all together. But, um and we had speeches. Fran gave a speech and Alison gave a speech and Bill gave a speech. I can't remember who else gave a speech, but there were quite a few. And, [00:49:00] um uh, no, it was It was It was probably about a month or five or six weeks late later. Because we had we had to have a series of meetings to get it together and nobody agreed about anything at the meetings. I can tell you how many people would have turned up for the meetings. We don't know. For the for the dancers. 00, big. A big, big crowd. Um I? I don't know. Probably about 1000. I don't [00:49:30] know if it was that many. It's really hard to But But, you know, the the dance floor was I can remember looking down from the stage and the dance floor was full. Did you have any pro protesters there? No. No, we didn't. No, no, they they given up by then. So once once that was once the bill had gone through, the actor passed and so on. Um, yeah, How How was it after that with, say, the community and the Salvation Army, for example. [00:50:00] After that, I remember going to, um, to a pub on Tory Street and they would come in, and it was would be having the dudes nights, you know, and And they'd come in and people would just turn the backs on them. And that was that would have been sort of around 1990 91. Yes, Well, well, my my feeling. I mean, I'm I'm not a gay man, so I don't know. I mean, it would have been huge for gay men because they could be visible now, you know, I mean, it's not that they weren't going [00:50:30] to be having sex in public or anything like that. Um, but but, um, it they didn't have to be as closet as, uh, it it didn't have the ramifications for them. As I mean, it was Criminalization is huge. And of course, we did lose the second part. Um, I read some or somebody, um wrote a paper recently and was quoting somebody else that had written a thesis that said that we, um that these human rights part two [00:51:00] was more important than decriminalisation. That is absolutely incorrect. And we always knew that it was very likely that we would use lose part two. We were quite prepared for that. But the decriminalise, the the decriminalisation, there was nothing that could have been more important than that. I mean, it was it it It was a It was a shocking thing for and for all those guys to be living. But for I mean, one guy went to lobby Margaret. He [00:51:30] was a doctor and she told me he he was and she he said She said they both ended up in tears. He was saying one time he was in the domain in Auckland and all of a sudden there were police dogs on him. He was running away from these police dogs and and and he said he felt. She said he felt terrible because he burst into tears in the middle of telling her the story, and she and she said It was so awful. I burst into tears, too, because if they still haven't been pardoned, no, [00:52:00] no, there's there's a petition being gathered and I don't know how far that's got and I really commend that young guy that's that's organised that and I certainly signed it and sent some copies of the petition to to friends. But II, I haven't heard any news of it. Um, you must have made some strong friendships during from those times. I did. I did. I did. I. I became very, very fond of just so many. I'll tell you something funny, Jack. When? When we [00:52:30] the coalition in support of the bill. We we hired the opera house. Now this is when we'd only just started and and I wasn't very experienced. Malcolm Malcolm McAllister was more. He was a socialist action man. And, um, and a whole lot of rape crisis, um, and refuge women and women against pornography. We all We were, um, got all the the opera house together, and we had buckets to [00:53:00] collect donations for this coalition in support of the bill that we and we got it all ready. And we had Sonia Davis had offered to be our patron and she was going to speak. Fran was speaking. George spoke, not George. Um, what's his name? You know, the the famous Presbyterian minister that used to be at the on Saint Andrews on the terrace. He spoke. Oh, for the unionist from Auckland. Um Jackson. Sir Jackson. He came down and spoke. It was absolutely rang Moana Taylor and I read [00:53:30] that, and we used to work together at Shelley Bay at the Air Force Base. And it was it was going to be some other guy who couldn't come at the last minute and so rang turned up. And of course, we were old friends. It was absolutely fabulous. And he read, Read the means. We read them. Alternatively, we thought alternately we thought we did rather a good job. And and And the funny thing was about, that was there was a post office strike at that time. So these telegrams Oh, sorry, [00:54:00] came through through all sorts of devious ways, and they came from all over the world. It was It was really, really exciting. But a lot of them had that people just had to ring up from Norway or London or cologne or whatever. And tell us what the organisation had said the telegram was going to say, Um well, the phones were still working. It was just that the the the telegrams When when was that? That was the 16th of August [00:54:30] 1985. I can and the 16th was because of the date of 16. But anyway, we we we this little happy band of people we'd set up all the opera house, we had it all, OK? And we and, you know, undertaken to provide to pay God knows how much for the for the hire of the opera house. So then we thought, We'll have a cup of coffee while we wait because there was about three quarters of an hour before everybody would start coming. So if we went over to the oaks across the road, we sat and thought, What if nobody come? [00:55:00] Never forget that The anguished. Anyway, About 800 people came to that and it and it went really, really well. So, um, for next year. It's the 30th since the bill went through since the act came through. Um, 30 years. Does that? Does that feel like a long time? Or how does that feel for you? Look, I, I can't believe it's 30 years I. I we've had We've had [00:55:30] 10 years and 20 years celebrations of it and and it seemed, but 30. I cannot believe it was 30 years ago because it was such a dramatic time that that I think that probably so many events just impacted on on. And for me personally, it was such a turning point in my life as well as I say I went in just ordinary old that went down to the tavern on Saturday nights, came out and active, you know, Um um, [00:56:00] Socialist Action said, Would I like to join in the Communist said, Would I like to join them? I was rather neat. They came and visited me. I said, No, I'm a feminist. What do you think you got involved in afterwards? Because you you were now this activist. Uh, well, I was I. I was always involved in and there's been things. But also we were challenged during the campaign about the treaty, that we should be doing something about the treaty. [00:56:30] And so I said at the time, Well, actually, I can't do that. And this this, you know, this is overwhelming, but, you know, and leading up to 1990 got involved in groups of lesbians that were that were opposing celebrating what we were opposing was celebrating a treaty that had not been, um, you know, fulfilled. And we went up to Waitangi. Uh oh. We had an amazing time [00:57:00] and and protest that we went to the Commonwealth Games. Of course. 1st, 1990. And then we went up to, um to wait. There were 80 of us camped at, um you were there, Were you? Oh, wasn't it fan? Remember those great big bonfires we had at night and the singing around the bonfires? It was stunning. Like my lesbian baptism was really Jack. Hm? What [00:57:30] a wonderful baptism. So, um, were you involved in rope crisis and refuge in those organisations around that time? Or there were just people you knew I was I was involved in refuge in Christchurch and and and then later in the in the nineties and the mid nineties, but no, I was I. I had a lot of friends that were involved that I'd met through the coalition support of the bill. You see? Yes, me, all sorts of rationalists and humanists. I mean, we went, we went to meet the [00:58:00] they were all very elderly. They were amazing people. They and, you know, I didn't even know they existed. This is everyone coming out of the woodworks to support to support lesbians and gay men. It just blew your mind. And I'll tell you, some of those marches were incredible. They they were just stunning. I mean, there were there were the awful people that threw tomatoes and drop bags and flour and everything, but, um, and some lesbians said something about some of them. I'll tell you that, but I was filled with admiration, [00:58:30] actually, their bravery, but And also, I'll tell you what I I had been doing Massey papers. And, um, one of our lecturers was was blind. Peter. Peter can't remember his other name, but people will know who was a sociology lecturer at Massey. And I was just blown away that when I saw Peter and his guide dog and two of the other sociology lectures from Massey in Palmerston North. So I don't think it was in Wellington yet. Then, [00:59:00] um, marching in the march, be if somebody was one of them. It just blew your mind. Did you know people, um, who were against the bill? Oh, well, well, as a matter of fact, and, Well, yes, I would have. I would have. I can't think of anybody straight off the top of my head, But I'll tell you what. The uh there were three of us, Jane Cole and Fran Richardson. Me all worked at the Wellington Polytechnic, and our boss was Salvation [00:59:30] Army, But she chased me down one day. How's it all going? How's it going? But when we were protesting outside the Citadel, she would have been inside praying. But But I'll tell you what. She was such a sport, and she and all she did was worry about us. She worried that we were all right. And when Fran was Fran, Fran was on television. Um, in 1981 protesting against the Springbok tour and, um, and being manhandled by the [01:00:00] police and And Judith was down in Dunedin and she she rang Fran up from Dunedin. Are you all right, Fran? Are you all? So you know, we we were very fond of her. Judith Christensen, who was her name and she was a Christian woman and she she really worried about us through this. Do you think about the changes that have happened that you've seen that perhaps how lesbians have benefited from that bill having gone through, [01:00:30] I think lesbians, You see, we were invisible. And that's why we called Lava Lesbian Action for visibility. And and it was it in about 1922 that the British Parliament tried to include lesbians in the in the in the criminalization and and one of the MP S argued it was better to keep maintaining their their invisibility because if people, if women who you know, heard about this, that they might be encouraged by it, so it's just best not to, not to say a word, and, you know, and that was [01:01:00] in terms of what they were aiming for. It was a very good strategy because it's a very hard strategy to fight against, and I believe that more more with the human rights legislation that became law and it was passed in 1993 became law in 1994. I noticed a dramatic change in the way the media reported on this. Suddenly we were in the media, and but not just for negative things. Not just like Queensland vamped by lesbians. Um positive, [01:01:30] Positive, um, images of lesbians. And to me, that was I've still got in the bottom of one of my boxes a whole lot of cuttings that I started cutting out. I was so excited, you know, this was in the paper. It's about lesbians. And it's so positive. I remember Doctor Ringer's sister died around about that time. I still have the cutting somewhere, and she was a lesbian and she was locked up in one of the and the concentration because she was a lesbian and and it was [01:02:00] or was it him? That died and I can't remember. But one of the guy rang. A family died anyway, and it mentioned the sister that was in one of the concentration camps because she was a lesbian. Now, in the past, they never put that in. They might have put that she was in the concentration camp, but not because she was a lesbian. So the visibility was was a huge thing. And and the the positiveness of it? Yeah, it was in the in. In the seventies, lesbians [01:02:30] protested to the post office. They protested to the buses. They protested to the to the evening post because the evening post wouldn't put an advertisement in that said for Lesbian Centre. You know, the the the word lesbian was a no no. In all those places, the the buses had these advertisements, you know, along the that they wouldn't They wouldn't have a, uh, an advertisement for lesbians and, um, and and the telephone book. They wouldn't let us put the lesbian centre in the telephone book. Isn't it bizarre? I mean, it seems [01:03:00] bizarre now, but that's how it was. So we've lived through an interesting period, haven't we?

IRN: 914
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_rainbows_tim.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004366
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089660
TITLE: Tim - Beyond Rainbows
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Ahi Wi-Hongi
TAGS: 2010s; Ahi Wi-Hongi; Aotearoa New Zealand; Ara Taiohi; Beyond Rainbows (series); Grindr; Invercargill; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; Salvation Army; Shortland Street (tv); Steps to Freedom; Wellington; advertising; bondage and discipline; brothels; courts; crime; criminal background check; employment; fetishism; fraud; friends; gay; home detention; home detention bracelet; homelessness; housing; humour; internet; internet dating; justice; law; lawyer; newspapers; oppression; people of colour; prison; prisoners; relationships; segregation (prison); sex work; stigma; support; television; tinder. com; vanilla sex; youth; youth unit (prison)
DATE: 26 May 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Tim talks about the experience of being in prison and then life after release.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: OK, Well, the first time I went to prison was for fraud charges, and I was 17 at the time where I was placed into a youth part of the AM means prison. It was sheltered, and it was different compared to actual prison, because I was only with 17 to 20 year olds and I was pretty much the whitest one there. [00:00:30] So I was We were only allowed out of ourselves an hour a day. I knew that was my first experience. It was pretty mellow when you've never been to prison. And you have, like, um, ideas about what it would be like. How did it How was it in comparison and in my head, I just thought of my first time in prison just going to be a horrendous time with [00:01:00] fights, arguing and just a whole bunch of different people acting recklessly. But everyone just wants to do their time and get out because they do one little thing in there. They stay in there for longer. And the only time you really get grief from anyone is people that are in there for life, right? Yeah. So when you're in like the young people one. That's probably not very often, um, when I was in the youth division for 17 [00:01:30] to 20 year olds, there were three lifers in there and I actually felt sorry for them. They were all in there for, um, manslaughter from car accidents. Oh, yeah. Right. So how long were you in there for my very first time. I was placed in the youth division for two months, and then I was placed on house arrest. Then, from house arrest, I cut off my bracelet, [00:02:00] and I was placed in prison for 3. 5 years. But I was released on 13 months. 3. 5 years is a long time. When I was in there for two months on in the youth division, I was on remand. I was on a remand in custody. I was sentenced to seven months home detention and because I breached the my home the house arrest. They resentenced me on all of my charges. And because I was 18. By that point, [00:02:30] I was placed as an adult. So initially you were, like, initially and then Yeah, and so then it was a harsher penalty because you were an adult you were saying that like if they find out or when they find out that you are gay, they try to put you in protection and you have talked your way out of it. Tell us about that. OK, I will win. You initially go into the [00:03:00] prison and you get checked out by the health team, the psych team and the prison wardens. They will question you on your sexuality. If they find or have a hint of thinking that you are that way inclined, they will put you into protection. And you've got to. You can either happily go into protection or convince yourself that I convince them that you should be put into mainstream prison like everyone else just [00:03:30] because it's not really worth the risk of being put into protection because the amount of grief that you would actually get in prison just for being placed in there. So, yeah, so you get a hard time for being put in protection? Well, it's mainly only paedophiles, rapists and more. Just old people are placed. So if you, um if you're pretty much under the age of 30 you get put into protection, you automatically classed [00:04:00] as a rapist or a paedophile. So people just assume they've done something really, really bad. Yeah. Yeah, I can see that. And, um, you were also saying something before about GCB or Shorten Street. Can you tell us about that? Um, yeah, well, it was just There's nothing to do in prison at night time and you get TV S in your cells [00:04:30] and pretty much the entire unit that you I was placed in in prison. You weren't allowed to speak at all from seven o'clock to eight o'clock. Wow, because everyone would be And, um this Like he said, there was a seven o'clock to eight o'clock is the our night wreck after dinner and they've got pool tables, table tennis starts, and there's a big lounge area with a big flat screen TV, and you're not allowed to enter the lounge area [00:05:00] if you're loud, because the older people will spazz out at you. So the older people are watching the street and yeah, and the well, the tail ending of the news. Anyone over the age of 40 in prison is obsessed with the weather at like 5 to 7 like it's it almost started a riot one night, and that's not even an exaggeration. I had, like 20 people over the age of 40 trying to go like 5 20 year olds because [00:05:30] one of one of them cracked up laughing at like, 10 to 7, and they couldn't hear what the weather was like in Dunedin. And we were in Christchurch. So I don't know what the relevance was because it's not like you could go there. So that's the thing that happened. And so that's like, That's your break time. Like after dinner, you've got, like, a limited amount of time to hang out and kind of do socialising recreation. And so you were saying before that, once you get out of prison, [00:06:00] it makes it really hard to get jobs if you, um if you don't have a clear record for, like two years and so you know, then obviously that puts you in a position where it's difficult to make money in a legal way, so it sort of puts you at risk of having to do something else illegal to get by. So as it stands, the process of being released from prison, you, [00:06:30] if you've been in there longer than 28 days. You get a thing called Steps to Freedom, which is a check for $350 and then you've got $350 to live on for three weeks because they delay your benefit for three weeks until they will place you on one. So you've got $350 for 21 days, and in that time you probably won't get a job because [00:07:00] 90% of jobs these days will do a criminal background check. And in my experience, no one's ever been willing to give me a job because it's been under two years since my last record. So that makes it really difficult. It does. And, yeah, that's how most people will reoffend and be back in prison within a month of their being released. Do you think that you get treated differently by the court system because of your sexuality or your ethnicity, [00:07:30] et cetera. Um, when I was standing in court waiting to be sentenced, I my lawyer said something about my sexuality and in a way that kind of seemed like I was trying to get off my charge, and the police turned around and pretty much said that. I like to use it as an excuse to get away with things, and that's that's actually on my records now with the judges and every [00:08:00] time judges will bring it up. And because of that, apparently I am never remorseful for any of my convictions. And it's all because when I'm when I'm in an awkward position or when I'm like like, shamed out or like being shunned, I giggle. Yeah, that's my automatic response. I'll giggle. There's like masses of academic theory on people of colour and like using humour to deal with oppressive situations like That's such a thing. It's once [00:08:30] given me an extra three months in prison. Wow, just because I laughed. I was sentenced for my 3. 5 years and I'd gone back to court six months after I'd been sentenced for fines and I didn't know how much driving plans I actually had occurred. And the judge said 18,000 and I laughed and he had just finished saying he was going to give me a month extra in prison and I laughed [00:09:00] and he was like, three months, you know, the court system doesn't really think, but how much it actually affects people's lives. Yeah, because it must affect your life. And like a lot of a lot of ways that people don't necessarily think about like, um so, like, 11 way that it might affect things I guess is like, um, how your relationships go and the queer community Or, you know, like the kind of, you know, do you feel like [00:09:30] it's Yeah, I probably lose. When I got out of prison, I probably lost about pretty much 50% of my high school friends. And like in the gay community, when most people find out that I've been to prison, they will stop talking to me. People's opinions on you are very well. It all depends if they have people in their background that have been to prison. If they have, then [00:10:00] they're OK like generally speaking. But if they if they don't really have someone close to them that have been in that sort of situation or been into, like a rehab situation, then they don't really understand and they just think automatic. They are a bad person. They won't change type scenario and it it takes a lot for most people to get around that they just have this specific I like idea [00:10:30] on what people that go to prison are like and will forever be like. And it's kind of just trying to break that barrier, which is never really works. Yeah, because it's the benefit of the doubt and stuff. Yeah, and it's more worse with the charges that I went to prison for being fraud, mainly because they automatically think that I just want to I'm just saying what they want to hear, and people never really give it a chance. They just [00:11:00] And that's weird. Yeah. What do you think would be useful like when you get released from prison? Um, I'm just thinking, Yeah, like I've actually heard, like from a lot of people that when they get out of prison, it's really hard, you know, like with the money stuff and with the getting employment and even with getting housing. And sometimes there's like some kind of programmes that's meant to help you, you know, quote unquote reintegrate in society or whatever. [00:11:30] Um, what do you think would be really useful? Like, what do you think that the prison system or the government should do to, like, support people when they're coming out of prison to, like, you know, be able to carry on with life and not have a hard time. Um, speaking for myself, there isn't really anything for gay males when being released from prison. But I was most of the time I have been in prison was in Invercargill. And when you are [00:12:00] released from prison, you need to put down an address and like an address where you're staying. And if you can't provide one of those, there's only the Salvation Army. Right? So you have to have a fixed address to get depending on what your release conditions are. And yeah, so it it could be It can be hard for some open, openly gay males in prison. So having like a criminal conviction really seriously can impact your life? [00:12:30] Yeah. And your career choices, you know, like basically for the first two years of your last criminal charge on your record, that pretty much that two years, you only get like, labouring jobs. And like horrendous jobs, you can't even get a job in the supermarkets or at McDonald's, and they won't give you a labouring job unless you've got experience and all my actual work experience is through telemarketing, [00:13:00] Call centre work. Been working in administration, and I can't work for any of those anymore, right? So then your options when you come out of prison is voluntary work. Yep, that doesn't pay the bills. Like when I got out of prison December 31st, 2013, I moved [00:13:30] to Wellington, couldn't get a job, become a sex worker and volunteered at the NZ PC. Yeah, so it, like, cuts down a lot of your, I suppose. Do you reckon that that's largely because of, um, because it's not as though it's illegal to give someone a job who's been to prison? I suppose that's heaps to do with, like, stigma against people who have their actions. And it's just it's easy to judge someone on paper without meeting them [00:14:00] and just the fact that they're reading about it on paper like first before even willing to meet you or give you an interview. Just the whole thing on our paper will pretty much notice the time. Avoid that scenario of you getting an interview and even when if you, by chance you do get an interview because they're like they understand the situation that it will really happen. But if it does, you pretty much get the job. If they get willing to give you an interview knowing about your criminal record, [00:14:30] Yeah, so, like the places that are not prejudiced against you, you know, the places that aren't going to automatically discriminate against you once they meet you, They're like, Oh, yeah, you're awesome. And yeah, but it's just it's hard these days because most jobs will want at least a year experience. And no one's willing to give you the experience so you can get the job. So you're saying that you did sex work when you, um when you came here, [00:15:00] was that different than you thought it would be? And what kind of did you find that you, um, you know me like interesting people or I? I was 16. Um, it wasn't because I needed the money or I was dependent on drugs or anything like that. I was on a dating website. SI was 18. Some guy offered me money and I was just like, people [00:15:30] do this, and I'm not going to say no sex for money because like, it's my two favourite things. And yeah, it started off from there. And as much as I give it out for free, I give it out just as much for money. So I I enjoy it. Yeah, it's quite a common way that people will start, you know, not like sort of setting out to do sex work, but just kind of like I've worked pro. Um, I've worked for myself on numerous occasions, and I've [00:16:00] also worked in male parlours. Well, a male parlour. Actually, I've worked in two male parlo. What was the main like differences or what did you like or dislike about, You know, working for yourself versus working for myself. I got to keep 100% of the money, and I got to choose what sort of money I was to earn. And a it's they've chosen the amount, and you, at the best of time, will see half of it [00:16:30] if that so, I, I do prefer working privately, but there's always that kind of doing privately and working in a parlour. So the plus side, like what you get for the half the money that you have to give to the parlour to the to the owner or whatever that's for. Like the plus side of working in a parlour would be that you don't have to have your own place where you can work from or what was that security [00:17:00] and not having to fund yourself for advertising and or trying to putting yourself out there to get clients. It's Everything just comes to you. You sit there and look pretty until they arrive, and when you're doing it privately yourself and, um, when you're doing it privately yourself, you're you can either be putting yourself out there on dating websites, uh, grinder, tinder advertising in the newspapers. [00:17:30] And you're putting through the effort of talking to the guys, seeing which ones are actually gonna book you or which ones are just wanting to chat and then just cycling through them and actually getting down to getting a booking, which can take ages, which is just the effort that you put into it is what you'll get out of it. So lots of the actual work of it is in the hustle to kind of set the book up, would you say, because I've heard people say that, like, it's more work arranging, [00:18:00] You know, the hustle is more work than the actual what happens in the room kind of thing. Yeah, like you. Well, if you're, like, privately, if you're advertising in the newspaper, you could just get someone that will contact you and be like, Are you available now? I'll come see you now. They weren't actual details or your preference or anything like that. They'll just show up. But then you've got the guys who want to know about every little freckle on your body. And so how did you find out working for a manager like, um, you know, working in [00:18:30] a and a male brothel. It was a little bit awkward because my boss was kind of like my mom. She was actually your mum. Yes. My mom was my No, Um, one of my was my one of my best friends. Mom and I called her mom, and we ended up living together in the brothel. So it was a little bit of a, um unusual. Set up like I mean a little bit different from Yeah, it's not really your standard brothel life or sex worker [00:19:00] life. It was working receptions. While if the client wasn't me, I'd be going into the back room. I was answering doors. And would you say that, um, sex workers taught you or, like, helped you develop different skills that you might not have otherwise got, Like, some people you know will say that they are really good at negotiating or, you know, they're really good at, Like making people feel comfortable with that kind of thing. Do you feel like you got any? Um I [00:19:30] was pretty much I pretty much had all those skills. Like I'm black, so I'm good at hustling automatically. Um, the only thing was, I pretty much started off in the industry as vanilla, and now I can happily hurt people for enjoyment and get paid for it.

IRN: 912
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_rainbows_jack.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004365
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089659
TITLE: Jack - Beyond Rainbows
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Ahi Wi-Hongi
TAGS: 2010s; Ahi Wi-Hongi; Aotearoa New Zealand; Ara Taiohi; Auckland; Australia; Beyond Rainbows (series); Grindr; HIV / AIDS; Melbourne; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; Newtown; STI; Wellington; advertising; advice; androgynous; bisexual; brothels; cis male; clothing; community; dating; drag; employment; facebook. com; faggot; femininity; femme; friends; gag reflux; gay; gaymers (gay video gamers); gender identity; gender performance; high heels; hookups; internet; judgement; labels; language; makeup; masculinity; objectification; pansexual; performance; queer; relationships; safe sex; sex; sex work; sex-centric; sex-phobic; sexuality; sexually fluid; slut; stigma; television; threesome; trolling; twink; video games; virginity; visibility; youth
DATE: 27 May 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Jack talks about sex work.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, my name is Jack. I'm 21 years old, been living in Wellington for four years now, barring a year in Auckland, Um, I'm a sex worker. I'm a massive video game nerd. I'm relatively androgynous, which is what I was hoping to talk about and stuff, Um, other things I like long walks on the beach. So you've been in Wellington for, like, I moved up when I was 18, just after I finished high school, Um, lived [00:00:30] in Newtown for most of it, Apart from I went away for a year in Auckland. Came back. Um, I basically pretending Wellington is my hometown. It's sort of where everyone from my town moved to, and it was just sort of fit me really well, It's got a much bigger community and also has quite a strong gay community, as opposed to the town I came from, which makes it a lot better for someone like myself. Do people like when people see you? Do you think they would, like, read you automatically as being gay? [00:01:00] Um, so basically, the way I look is I wear mostly male orientated clothing barring my high heel shoes, which are pretty pretty boots and then usually a full face of makeup. Which shoes just, you know, the basic foundation. Mascara, eyeliner, contour, all that jazz. And so you know, I. I look extremely feminine, but also I usually get picked as gay. Very few people don't think I'm gay, but you're quite [00:01:30] a androgynous. Yeah, so mostly I get described as a lesbian. But that's not really true, though, so it's just a sort of odd combination of masculinity and more femininity. So you were like thinking about, um, gay views on sex work or the kind of, um, sort of the house. The gay community is quite odd. It's very sex centric. It's, I think I'm [00:02:00] not entirely sure why, but it's just very open about sex. And talking about sex is something a lot more common than with, say, the heterosexual community. I find, because I do. I have a very large amount of heterosexual friends and sort of hang out in the heteronormative world quite a bit. And so it sort of the different terms, too, is the gay world is very more open and talking about sex, but also it's still very sex phobic and that there is a very sort of fine Goldilocks zone in which you can be you have to sort of be You can't be a version [00:02:30] in the gay world without getting shit for it. Basically, that is not something that's OK, but also, if you have sex with too many people, it's also bad. And there's a very sort of fine line of what you can and can't do in the gay world to do a sex and then as a sex worker, I get a lot of crap for that. Basically, I've had sex with 432 guys. That is 412 more than that is basically appropriate. And people think that due to my job, I'm lots of things. Basically, I think I might be on drugs. They think [00:03:00] I might have kids to support or some sort of debt to repay that I'm forcing myself to do sex work for, or a bunch of other things like Daddy or whatever they want to come up with at the time when really, basically the only thing forcing me to do sex work is by rent and also the ability to eat and buy pretty pretty makeup. Do you think? One of the assumptions that people make about you as a as a like gay queer? Um, I identify as gay, but that's most [00:03:30] not inconvenience. I, um the way I'd probably easily describe it would be a Kinsey five if you're talking on just a binary scale. But then that's such a weird spectrum. I don't know where you're out for, but I, I can't really say I'd just say sexually fluid or a slut. Yeah. So do you think that people see you? Um, and and on the basis of, like, how they read you and you being a sex worker, do you think people, um, like, you were saying earlier about people having a kind [00:04:00] of almost like an assumption that you will want to have sex with them? Yeah, it's sort of because I'm a sex worker. I'm a lot more with the word like, hard. Are you towards six, like, you know, people will sort of if I don't want to sleep with them. Well, like probably the most common thing would be I sleep with someone and they not want to do it again for some sort of reason. Like maybe the anti-sexual. Maybe they're racist. Or maybe it just wasn't even good sex. And they don't particularly want sex to be like, Oh, but you have sex with anyone like I'm like, Yeah, but they also pay me. And [00:04:30] so basically, because I have sex with anyone for money, I should have sex with this person because whatever they're reasoning may be, maybe they think they're attractive. They're young, whatever. And it's sort of like because I'm a sex worker. I am just a sexual object. Like I'm not the person who deserves respect and rights and have the ability to give consent. I will quite often just get groped just in public, like by certain individuals who I do not at all represent the gay community or anyone at all touch from themselves. But they will think that it's OK to touch me because [00:05:00] I am a very sexually open and give off quite a sexual energy. And I guess people are, you know, often, you know, there's a bit of an attitude towards femininely gendered people, especially, I suppose, if you're like you know, you're like male assigned, so you're like you're a guy and you're feminine do you think people think that means that they have a kind of, you know, um, being feminine? Well, that being feminine means that you are asking for [00:05:30] sexual attention or something. I would say it's definitely asking for attention. According to them, Um, just because of the way that you know, masculine and feminine work is that feminism is lesser. I find that a lot of the sort of because of how feminine I am, and I very much enjoy it. I enjoy my masculine aspects, and I enjoy my feminine aspects. But my feminine aspects tend to get a lot more like flack like, I don't know how many guys who haven't touched an eyeliner brush in their life come up to me and tell me that my eye looks terrible and that I need to do it. That's what I need to use whatever they heard on Ruel drag race or whatever. [00:06:00] And then I'm just, like, know how that you try and get the wings to match and and see how well you do. And so they will often just come up to me and give me critiques because I'm a man doing feminine things. But Also, I will get a lot of stuff like, you know, you look better without makeup. Why do you do this? People will sit down and have very serious conversations about me about why I wear heels. Why I wear makeup. Why do I do these things? What is is it for attention? Is it you know, like no, I don't decide to wake in the morning like I'm going to put on a pair of heels and do makeup because [00:06:30] I want people to look at me. The looks I get in public are not the nicest things in the world. Like this morning, I was waiting to cross the road, minding my business. These two people in the car were just staring at me and laughing weren't even considering who I was as a person, just I was looking straight at them. They were just staring and laughing like I was some sort of spectacle. And so I just find that just because of how excited you soon as a whole, it's not something that what my point was like like, as people are [00:07:00] wondering why you would sort of lower myself almost and the only reason they can think of is for attention. But that's just sort of because of how society views humanity, as though you need a reason as though there's something wrong with it, like makeup like you don't need to be a woman to wear makeup. There is sort of nothing in there that you know you have to like be a woman to operate a like mascara brush. There's nothing in there like makeup and high heels. High [00:07:30] heels were originally designed for men, like as a masculine thing to make you look taller and more dominant. And then women started wearing them and then men didn't want to because of women, and then they became a woman thing. But I can wear high heels, and people are like, Why do you wear women's shoes? I'm like, I think I'm quoting idiots out right now, but I'm not wearing women shoes I paid for. These shoes belong to me. I'm this, this male it It just kind of confused me a bit that people like I get that you know, it's not normal, like I'm not speaking to people just be like, totally OK with it. Straight off the bat. [00:08:00] It's the same with sex work. I'm happy to explain it, but you sort of when people come to me with their own ideas and sort of just want me to reconfirm them, then I'm just like, yeah, yeah, you don't. You're not under any obligation. I'm happy to explain it, But as long as you're sort of wanting my opinion as opposed to recon affirming of your own And, um, how do you find that that, um, being a sex worker impacts on, like, you know, relationships or hook ups with [00:08:30] other guys? Um, um, a lot of people think, Well, not a lot. Every now and again, I will get someone who thinks that because I'm a sex worker, I am, like, positive or have some sort of things which I don't know how accurate it was. But I did remember reading a study where sex workers weren't were more likely to know if they had something because of how regularly we get checked up. I get checked up as regularly as I can. Basically, which is every three months, is always recommended, [00:09:00] which is what I do. Sorry. And so, you know, I like a lot of people. I know are sort of like, Well, I have sex with someone and then sort of I usually try and tell someone I'm sex with before I have sex with them. But also, I don't feel it's something I sort of need to like, openly shouted. And so if they find out and they want to get you, I'm like, yeah, when was the last time you had a test and so sort of they will be like, Oh, I haven't had one Or it was, like, 10 months ago or something. I'm like, Yeah, I had my last test, like, two months ago. How much have guys have you had [00:09:30] since then? Uh, you know, I do have sex with a lot more guys than what is considered normal, but it tastes a lot more than what most people do. You're probably a lot safer as well. Most definitely a lot safer and so sort of with relationships. Relationships is a bit different from just hook up hook ups is sort of. Most people are OK with it because they realise I'm safe with everyone I have sex with. Whereas relationships, people sort of want to change me and I haven't. Actually, I've had one relationship while being a sex worker. [00:10:00] It was a strain in our relationship because of how he wanted to have sex. But I'd been busy having sex all day, and so I didn't want to, but I was happy to do it for him, but he wanted me to do it for me, and so that was a strain. But that was the only one because he understood the difference between being as well, having six and money and having sex romantically. I don't have any sort of emotional attachment to a client as a like this emotional attachment to a client is the same as someone who has to like a customer like you like them at work. But like, if [00:10:30] you see someone you make coffee for on the street, you're not really gonna be like, Hey, Oh, my God. Let's come back to mine and make a coffee or something. Let's just work. Um, but in the last few weeks, I've had quite a few, actually, not in just the last few weeks. Last year and a half, I've been working. Um, people sort of want me to quit the industry like and they think it's sort of a nice thing like they're saving me. And it's like they want me to sort of stop my job and they will look after me and stuff. And so they're like, become unemployed. Yeah, basically quit. You're working. I will look after you even though I'm a student [00:11:00] or something. And then I'm just like, Yeah, cool. You live on, like, 100 and 70 a week, and you want to support me, even though my rent costs more than you make in a week, What? And so they'll ask all these like they'll try and convince me to change who I am for them. And then at this point, like most of the time, it would be like a third or second date or something like, I don't even think they're viewing me as a person. At this point, I think I am again just an object because they can't conceive what I do, how I view it, which is it's my job, and I enjoy it. They think [00:11:30] it must be something entirely horrible that I'm forcing myself to do so they don't really view me as a person and don't listen to my opinions, and it's not fun. That must be frustrating. Little bit like when you have a chef and a chef loves their job, uh, you know, and then you have, but it still work. They don't necessarily want to cook for everyone all day for free. You know, it's kind of Or maybe the chef, um, doesn't even love their job. They're just like me, pays the bills, it pays the bills, you know? Or maybe they actually are like, uh, not particularly into. Maybe I'll just [00:12:00] do this for a bit and then do something else. There's a whole lot of different ways that people Yeah, it's just a job. It is. It has so much social stigma. That's just because sex is itself has social stigma. Like I'm allowed to do it. It's perfectly legal, and I just don't understand the sort of a horrible thing. I mean, I can get where they're coming from. I just don't agree with it basically, and it does sort of affect my relationship with people and that, like like on a friend level, most [00:12:30] people are OK with it. Some people just do not understand. But then I'm just I don't particularly care, but on a romantic level, it's just dating. And being a sex worker is a very hard thing to do, especially just sort of with that. This is where the sex sex phobic side of the gay community comes in and which, like a sex worker, is many stages too far for the sort of status quo. And so, like, people just won't consider me anything apart from a massive and they will be concerned about me. And it was like it just doesn't work. [00:13:00] Sort of. It's sort of almost like, um, you know, it's kind of like concern trolling right? Like people get a bit savy it gets a bit like the new cause. I was like, Yeah, I'm happy as I am. Hm. Thank you, but no. And then there's these people who are just sort of like they will. They're the sort of people who will announce that they love me within like, a few weeks. I'm just like you're not emotionally mature enough to decide things for me [00:13:30] like I am a legal adult. I am emotionally mature and I can look after myself, and I've been doing so for the last four years. I'm pretty sure I can make my own decisions at this point. But thank you. Thank you, kid who moved out six months ago from your parents house. And my parents are still paying for the university halls and stuff. I mean, sorry. What you So you're saying before, um, that you have worked in, um, like, like, brothels as well. And like [00:14:00] male brothels. How is that different? Or how you know, how was that working in brothel as opposed to independent work? Yeah, um, different. And, uh and they both have their ups and downs. Brothel work is a lot simpler, but also it's not entirely on my terms. And also, I get less money. Char a brothel or a client pays the same at a brothel as he does independently, But then the brothel takes a cut, but then they're also doing all the work and sort of all the set up. And I'm [00:14:30] just there for, you know, the hour. I don't have to sort of do the texting, the calling, the looking after the rooms, providing condoms and all that sort of stuff. They've got a place they can always work from and it's good, but also sort of. It's they they set the prices and I have to be OK with it, which, you know, obviously that's my choice. If, like, someone's like, Oh, I'm gonna charge you $40 an hour today and then I'll be like you And so it's not something I'm I still have control over that and then also sort of the other things will be like how I present myself, how I dress and [00:15:00] even things like that I might want to pick my name, which, you know I will. Most of the time. I'm OK with and I can always say no, but it's sometimes nice to sort of be able to say no, I want to do this without having to cause the whole which is what independent work independent work is, whereas everything's under my control. I get to choose how I do things. I get to choose if I want to work that day or not, but also things like it's, I have to put in a lot more work. I've got to provide my own place, lobe condoms, all that stuff and sort of do all of the entire thing myself as opposed to just [00:15:30] the hour booking. So I I don't know which I prefer. I prefer I like what I have at the moment, which is a brothel. Well, not brothel work, but it is working through an agency and they manage the calls and I go to there. But it's still my the way I do it. But you still market yourself how you wanna do your marketing and that Well, they choose how they market me. I have an input, but it's their decision, but [00:16:00] sort of they will do all the work and stuff and all the all the behind the scene stuff. So you've lived in Auckland and in Wellington, like in the recent the last few years. How do you say, How would you think? Um, you know, the Auckland scene is different from the Wellington scene. I was thinking gay, but however pro is probably easy to describe uh, in Auckland, Auckland [00:16:30] as a whole. As a community, this is Wellington, from my point of view, is Auckland is the way to describe to people is if you smile at someone in Auckland, they will be confused and wondering how they know you to see why you're smiling at them and if they sort of need to smile back, whereas in Wellington you smile at someone that's gonna smile back because they're nice people. There's more of a community in Wellington. Auckland is is bigger and there's no real sense of community. Everyone sort of doing their own thing, which can work. There was just a massive sense of, like anonymity to it, which sort of also translated into the like [00:17:00] world. In the Wellington scene, I am friends with the majority of the sex work male sex workers in Wellington, and we're all friends and we help each other out, like we all have the same set prices of 200 an hour and it's all good. We help each other out. We give each other tips. We give each other like clients sometimes and recommend each other to them. Auckland is very doggy dog. It is. You hoard your clients, people will lower their rates so that they're more available, so like and it happens all the time. I just When I went up there I was 300 an hour. Then I noticed everyone else was 1 [00:17:30] 50 an hour, and then someone would be charging a special 1 40. And then everyone was 1 40 then dropped on to 1 20. And then it would just pop back up and go on this odd little cyclical cycle. And I just stayed fine at 200 like, you know, it would sort of be like when they were charging 1 20 I would be getting this work. But also, I just didn't particularly want to do this for other people. I wanted to charge home rates, but it was sort of I. When I moved up there, I tried to. I messaged a few of the people on and like Hey, need to like new male prostitute to Auckland, sort of looking for [00:18:00] like friends. And also, if you guys know any places to work from all that sort of thing, guys looking nothing back two weeks later, I need someone for a three text all of these guys again. Hey, I need another prostitute for a reason, I think six out of seven replied, So sort of like you don't help other people, which I mean Fair enough. We're competitors, I get it, but also it's just like it is nice to have a sense of community. Like if there's a bad client in Wellington, I can text them all. And they're like, Hey, Auckland, I've tried it and I get anything back. And I think there was one time [00:18:30] I texted someone like, Hey, you're about to go see this guy. He will try not to pay you. He didn't reply back. I mean, I think they somehow heard or something that he went to the guy anyway. Like, I get that Maybe I was trying to steal the client or something, but it must be like nice when you have, um, yeah, like when you have that sense of community and you can kind of look out for each other And, you know, when you need someone for a three and also just even just talking to people like sort of [00:19:00] people you can understand. It's hard to understand what it's like being a prostitute without being a prostitute like you can understand. But you don't really know it. And so it sort of it's really nice to be able to, like, talk to someone and then just sort of like, have a debrief you've got a bad client or someone and sort of, you know, it creates a better sort of work atmosphere, too. Like you're like, Oh, I can go talk to about this client or something and like, it's just fun. And it's a lot nicer. It's a more happy and healthy work environment. And do you find that, um, you [00:19:30] know, when you do have, like, a more of a sex worker community, you can, um, you know, give each other tips on how to you know how to work safe or how to clients, Or, like, even the little things of, like squeezing your thumb to your gag reflex? Oh, yeah. If you squeeze your thumb, it squeezes your gag reflex. I'm not joking. Um, so, like, that was a tip I gave to a sex worker because he was telling me he had trouble with a sensitive gag reflex. I'm like, Is that a real thing? [00:20:00] No. No, I'm not joking. It actually works. Now I want to put something in my throat. So things like that and you know more serious things, so that, like, like, quite often, sort of. I'm not shy at all about being a sex worker, I tell most very rarely do I not tell someone I'm a sex worker. Even if it's someone on the street asking me what I do for a living like, I just [00:20:30] tell people. And so quite often someone will come to me on some form of like, you know, grinder or Facebook or something and be like, Hey, I'm curious of being a sex worker. Can you talk to me about this? Help me and what do I do? And I, you know, usually I'll be very open. Ask why and sort of. I never try and convince them to be a sex worker, But I will always be very happy and sort of I try and being as passive as I can. But you know, people will often come to me and sort of like, That's what I quite like that I can be there for people who want to enter the industry and be like, Hey, go to NZ PC. Get [00:21:00] all of your stuff to read the book because it's great and, you know, like basically how to advertise yourself, where to advertise yourself and all the basics and how to keep safe and, like, you know, it's really nice to be able to sort of. When I first entered, I had a mentor like a mentor, I guess. I think he called me his, um, but yeah, like, he sort of taught me him the things to do and sort of got me started. And I was, like, sort of debunk some. And [00:21:30] it's really nice to be able to sort of have that community of just like, I will look out for my like, you know, the guy who just started, even though, like, and like, sort of a where it's just sort of you enter it, and then people like you're basing everything on your own ideas. And so, you know, you might have a few bad ones, you know? Sounds like nice kind of community building. If people can, people can come to experience workers and, um, ask them questions and get, you know, useful information and stuff and networks. [00:22:00] Yeah, especially because, like, Ackland, when I was leaving, I am actually had made a prostitute for I actually want a date with a guy and turn to prostitute. Whoops. Um, but, you know, he was starting to work he was interested. I was like, All right, I've got a client tonight. Jimmy takes him and see if you want a threesome. And he was like, Yeah, sure. So I think I charged the guy 300 for a threesome. I gave my guy 200 told him I charged him 400 then I just took on for myself. I was like, Yeah, this has been nice. And he wasn't gonna pay 400 for a threesome. [00:22:30] And so the guy we did it, it was fun. And he came back and he was thrilled. He was, like, high on adrenaline and just super keen. And I was like, OK, cool. Um, tomorrow, let's set up your stuff, give him time to sort of settle down and do all that stuff. Then sort of, you know, he had a couple more clients. I texted a few of mine because I was leaving back to Wellington at this point, being like, Hey, I'm leaving. Here's this guy. Do you wanna do a threesome or do like, you know, most of the sort of clients that was giving him were sort of the more vanilla ones or more of the three. So but yeah, [00:23:00] he sort of took over from me when I left. Sort of like that seems quite common that people have kind of, you know, like not exactly a buddy system. But like, you know, mates, who they just walk past it is sort of if someone's sort of lacking or I've got too much work, I'll be like, Hey, take this guy text If you're sort of like like, I'll get people sort of text me like, Hey, I want sort of a more like Maori or something I don't know, Maori agent or whatever. Um And so I'll be like, Yeah, go to this [00:23:30] one. Yeah, if they want someone who has a different ethnicity or they're like yeah, yeah. So if you know lots of other sex workers, it's easy to, um, it's easy to like Hook people up with work. Yeah, because sort of like there's I'm trying to think if there's very few sex workers in well, I don't know, but sort of all the ones I do know, we sort of all have our own niche, like I am the sort of tweak and I know, sort of like the big bill we do and everything else. That sort of fits into the wonderful spectrum. So I can sort of always easily, like, sort of [00:24:00] pass people on. And then I get ones from other people and stuff. It was like just that works. Do you think part of the reason why lots of the male sex workers, um and Wellington, uh, like, know each other and have a, you know, quite a good like working relationship with each other, I suppose. Do you think that that's to do with, um, you know, that there used to be like a couple of male brothels here where a lot of people worked at the same time. So I think it might Do you think it's just because the guy said he has very little? Or maybe I think I'm trying to think how I met most of the escorts [00:24:30] I met most of them. They me, either most of them through the gay scene or through prostitution scene in Wellington. There has been 123 brothels that I have worked on, and they've all been run relatively well, 21 of them better than the other two, because one of them. OK, but, um, the you meet the prostitutes there and, you know, it can in brothels, it can be very sort of. In Auckland, I worked from a straight brothel [00:25:00] hiring rooms, and it was a bar scene, which basically means the client walks in and all the girls stand around, and then he picks the girl from there, and the girls hate each other up there. None of them talk. And very few of them were friends. Um, like, the way it worked in Wellington was that, like, we made sure that no one sort of felt like you didn't have to sort of work for a client Everyone would equal. And like, by the way, I worked in the first world I worked from that. We all sort of had the same script when you went to meet a client. Basically, if I were sitting in a meeting room, we'd [00:25:30] go in one at a time. Hey, my name's Jack. How are you? Blah, blah, blah like It would be a very short, sharp, concise thing. You wouldn't be sort of like, Oh, my gosh, You booked me because I'm so good and I'll give you like money off or something. Like, no one ever did that sort of thing because it was sort of like he will book who he once. Yeah, and then sort of, like, say, like, quite often, sort of, if someone would be like, they had a bad streak for a couple of days and get that much work. And then, um, you know, like, a couple of the guys might, you know, mess up their interview with the dude. Yeah, [00:26:00] and so it would make him seem better and us seem worse. Question. It was just sort of looking after each other and sort of all four on one for all. Basically, you were, um you're planning on moving overseas, so yeah. Oh, God, I have no idea. Actually, no, no, no, no. Yes. Today I worked out. I'm going to Melbourne on Christmas, by the way, um, my friend in America, who I met through video games, is moving to Melbourne from Texas or something. Um [00:26:30] and so I'm going to move with him in Melbourne, and it'll be Apparently, I will sit Melbourne because it's like Wellington the bigger, which means it's like a like about Auckland and Wellington market, which is fun, but, um gamers. So there is a community on the Internet, multiple different facets, but all the same thing of gamers, which is GAYAR gay people who play video game game gamers with the Y, These people from all around the world when I first sort of move, you know, when I first moved to Wellington, I [00:27:00] stumbled across this group and sort of started doing talking to them. And they were sort of my first gay friends by every sort of other gay person. There's quite a common thing. It sort of like the young twink who moves from a small town up to Wellington or some big city and then goes into the gay thing thing near the some hot young shit and, like everyone should give them attention. I'm such a sexual being. Everyone should be buying me drink stuff and it's a load of shit and you see it every year and basically like I feel bad because I did this exact same thing, got there, [00:27:30] thinking, Oh, everyone's gonna look at me and stuff, but I am pretty sure I look tragic as hell. Yeah, so I'll just be like in a bar or something and see these like, light girls coming in being like, Oh, my God, Look at me. Oh, and then No-one cares because they're boring and so sort of they won't and me myself. I'm not well, I'm judging them, but I'm also judging myself in the process because I was once one of them, like we all sort of did it. Basically, it's a sort of [00:28:00] bad thinking that everyone went through and sort of when you. When I first started in the gay scene, I sort of viewed gay guys not as friends. Gay guys were just things to have sex with. Like they were sexual partners, whatever. And then I sort of started talking about game online, and it was great because I just had a community of people who I physically couldn't sleep with because they were like, halfway around the world, and I could talk to her like some of them are like some very, very good friends of mine, like, and it was great and sort of I will talk to these people about most things [00:28:30] and like it was great to be able to sort of hang out with gay people and understand how gay culture works. But I something that does quite annoy me, is sort of the young gays who are coming onto the scene don't because they don't quite respect about how the gay culture works. But they think that being gay being gay is basically only like who you're attracted to. But the gay culture is a hell of a lot more. It is sort of things like drag queens not caring about this like social norm, defendant and masculinity and all this other stuff, and [00:29:00] they get these little like they go back. For Andy, thing like that is sort of part of the gay culture and that, like, you know, you don't have to dress a certain way because of you know what gender you are. Let's just do what you want and be happy and different. It's like you sort of already going against the grain. You know, you're already they already something different instead of eating pussy. So why not just go further? Don't even lie, Jack. You do both true. [00:29:30] It's really This is actually something that kind of pisses me off a lot, A lot of things about sexuality, in the gay community pissed me off. Um, like my old flatmate who hates me now so I can openly bitch about him. Um, I once just mentioned to him that I had sex with a couple of women. I had sex in my life was six soon to be seven woman, and I identify as gay and I just had I not. It's sort of I don't know how to describe it, but it's not like I specific, like, just every now and again. I want to have sex with woman. I'll go [00:30:00] do it and it's just I think it's possible because being a sex worker that sex is just such an open and easy. And there's no sort of hang ups about it that I can, you know, happily go and do this. And so I told him, and he was like, Oh, you're bye. No, I don't identify as Bye. That's not who I am. I don't like If I was, it would be like a They're just going on the odds like a 1% straight 99% gay thing. So, like I mean, I might be might be six. I don't know what I would [00:30:30] be considered like I if I had to pick it. Technically be pan. But also because of the other positions being so little. I just go with gay and then just say I'm sexually fluid, which is how I describe it. And But people don't accept that because I've had six Children, so I must be by. This is something that is set in stone. You're either 1234 Whatever that it sort of people have evolved from being like, Oh, you have to be gay or straight But it's not a thing. You have to be one of either two. You have to be gay. You buy [00:31:00] straight pan long as people will call me. I don't quite like I think I would probably identify as queer, but I mean, I don't particularly care what I identify as like. And if you identify as gay, well, then you're gay. And if you occasionally have sex with a woman, that doesn't make you not gay, but it makes you really bad to be gay. I don't like obey my label. God damn it. It's funny that [00:31:30] you know, I use labours to identify myself. I don't have to listen to them. Funny that. But, um, yeah, no, I'd say I'm queer, but like the way it works with me is like, if I want to speak with you and you want to speak with me, let's touch wiggly bits or whatever and yeah, if you happen to like my slightly slightly more than slightly feminine aesthetic, then good if you don't. And so, um, do you have you done like, um, gender performance or anything like [00:32:00] that? Do you do? Um, because sometimes people make the people make the assumption. Yeah, I guess people make the assumption that if you are like and gay that you must also be a drag queen. And not everyone is. But then sometimes people do. I mean, I've done drag, but I've also dressed as like a cowboy and a policeman and stuff, and I don't have any desire to be either of those. Like I've done drag because it's fun. But I don't call myself a drag queen. I've [00:32:30] put on a dress and makeup and heels and stuff and gone down to a bar and hung out with people like it was a costume. It wasn't I'm not at my heart a performer. I much prefer being backstage as opposed to on stage. And so I'm not like I have nothing, obviously, against drag queens, I you know, I like them as a thing, but it's just not what I wanna be. I just want to be a dude who wears makeup and you've done lots of, like, backstage stuff, uh, fair amount, like it's sort of It's something I do actually really enjoy and sort of like I much prefer helping someone from behind, [00:33:00] damn it. So, like stage management, that sort of thing. That's kind of something that you like. I'm not like, I think people think that because I'm sort of quite I look different and people look at the dude with the heels and the makeup, and people just think that I really want attention. But I I'm like everyone else. I don't mind attention, but it's not something I crave. It's something I'm like Cool, you like my shoes. I like my shoes, [00:33:30] too. That's awesome. Guys and heels and makeup is also normal. It doesn't have to have some kind of meaning. It's not. I'm not doing it for you. I'm doing it because I like my shoes like I. I care about my shoes more than you can. Just be honest, but I mean mostly, I think the reason I'm doing it ever since I was like probably probably about eight, I think I was eight. I I because I knew I was gay. I thought I had to sort of obey the gay norms that I saw on TV, which is basically I mean, I thought I wanted to be a fashion designer, [00:34:00] didn't I? Suck at fashion? Um, but basically I sort of looking at men's fashions and things, and it's extremely dull. It is suit and shoes, and maybe, if you're like, feeling like daring, you'd wear a fancy coloured tie as opposed to a black or a white one. Heaven forbid you wear something blue brown shoes and black pants or whatever, and there's all these horrible rules, but it's all very, very basic. And so, like I'll be going shoe shopping [00:34:30] with being like, really hating everything, because, like, do I want chucks or do I want sneakers or something? And they'll look at the women's shoes and be like, Do I want you know what stilettos or wedges, or whatever the heck women shoes are nowadays. And I'm just like those are so much more interesting. Those ones are red. Those test out on them. Those ones light up, but then they're for six year olds. But I still want them, Um, and so, just like a couple of weeks ago, no pressure. You only like last week I decided Screw up. But I've worn women's shoes casually on and off every now and again, [00:35:00] and also things like women's pants and make carpet and women's clothing. And just like that looks good to me. I like it and sort of. But heels were sort of the thing I've always wanted to do but never sort of. It's the line. It's kind of that men don't wear heels. That is the line drawn by social norms. You are not allowed to cross that line because it is. You can wear women's pants if they look like men's pants, but you cannot wear heels because only women wear heels. And then I was just like, Oh, fuck it, I want heels. Do you find that out in public? You know, like [00:35:30] um being like looking really thin and wearing heels and stuff like that. Do you find that you get a lot of, um, harassment from the general public or not actual harassment? But I haven't. The last time I heard someone call me a faggot or something to that effect was I mean, well, I can't really say it's justified because this never is. But I was walking through Newtown talking to my friend about sex, and, you know, it's not really something in public, but [00:36:00] it's also just sex, so it doesn't really matter. And then some guy just said, Fuck you fag it to me So I just said No thanks. You got my type and just kept working on with the day, and that was probably about two or three years ago. But all I get now is just people looking and staring, and no one will ever say anything to me. To be fair, I do. We headphones a lot, so they might be saying things. I might not hear them, but, like I would get people staring. But none of their friends look at me and I'd be like, Cool, don't care, because, like, these are people like basically all these. These eyes, like some old lady, might [00:36:30] tell a story over, like, morning tea tomorrow about that guy they saw in heels and eyeliner. Although, actually, when I was in, but it was in Auckland, I think I told you this story. Um, we were at me and my family was getting coffee, and the table behind us started talking about that. Really? Have you guys seen that guy who walks around with, like, eyeliner and no shoes on? And I was just like, I see him so much, and I was like, I don't know if he's OK. Do you think he's mentally well? And then it was just like sitting there. My friends were just staring at me with this, like, filthy look, because it's like [00:37:00] in the mornings I'd be getting ready for work or whatever. I'd have a full face of makeup on, no shoes, and I'd just go down to the DR and get cigarettes or whatever. And it it was close, and I couldn't be bothered putting on shoes. And so, yeah, apparently I was the crazy person of which was beautiful. And yeah, people do talk and they they don't understand. But it's not that hard to get your head around it when you actually like, put some effort into thinking about it. It's just sort of the I am the first thing they say and they're not used [00:37:30] to it. But then the way, the thing that makes me happy and the thing I think that, um besides the fact I really enjoy them. But the thing that makes me keep doing it, despite the sort of looks and shit I get would be that I want it to be the norm that, you know, masculine, feminine things aren't gender based and, you know, feminism being like being effeminate. Being a bad thing. Like I hate that. I think it's stupid. There is nothing wrong with pink [00:38:00] or dresses or makeup or whatever is considered feminine. Now it's just stupid. And so, like if I start wearing heels, maybe someone another guy who likes heels will, or maybe someone will start wearing makeup or whatever. And so, like, you know, if people want to, If I open the door a community building that you were talking about before, like if you can, you you can be visible, but I can start something maybe like it's the same. Like the reason I'm very open with sex work is so that people have [00:38:30] some that they know in sex work. So they're not basing all their things on like Hollywood movies. I'm happy that people can talk to me and have, like, intellectual conversation with me about sex work, because then they have sort of like a normal view on a sex work like so people can see it being a normal human from the fact I have sex and money. That's the only thing about me that's really interesting, like apart from that, I'm a normal 2021 year old guy. I play video games, I eat pizza, I wear heels, [00:39:00] you go to the dairy and you make up to buy cigarettes and like you're a normal person doing a normal thing in the morning. Yeah, like I'm not just a sex worker. I think people, it's sort of like when you're a kid and you kind of don't realise that your teachers have lives outside of school, but you think it's sort of just like they're in school like you see them in town. You're like, Wow, you're not meant to be here. It's sort of that, like the only time I have like I exist is like, you know, 11 at night on the street. If you're a street worker or like, you know, on the news when, like some football [00:39:30] that got caught with, like, you know, prostitutes in there I don't know whatever. And so, I I completely forgot what the point of this conversation was like. Oh, yeah. Um, so I'm open with sex work because I want people to sort of have a more accurate view on what sex working is and things like when I've done sort of commuted interviews in the past where people from anywhere in the world can ask me questions quite often the response I get like So I was coming here sort of explaining some sort of like massive stories about cocaine and whatever, and actually, you're really boring [00:40:00] and you're just normal, and I'm guessing that was your point. And just whenever I get there, I just get really heavy. I'm like, Yay! Another person is convinced that sex working isn't weird and strange and crazy, like it's just built up to look like that because it's apparently interesting, but actually, sex workers are normal people with normal lives and their job as having sex for money. Like the other thing I would say is that like I have yet to meet a boring sex worker. That's really it. Like we're all interesting people in our own ways, and we've had It's [00:40:30] not an easy job by far. But then neither is things like being a soldier or being a doctor, that those are still socially respectable. We just normal people who have a different life to you.

IRN: 889
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/butch_on_butch_jac_lynch.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004363
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089657
TITLE: Jac Lynch- Butch on Butch
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Jac Lynch
INTERVIEWER: Karen Harris
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Butch on Butch (exhibition/series); Dominion Post (newspaper); Jac Lynch; Jenny O'Connor; Karen Harris; Meg Allen; Māori; Photospace gallery; Visible - 60 women at 60 (book); Wellington; arts; butch; exhibition; facebook. com; femme; identity; lesbian; masculinity; media; photography; sexuality; social media; storytelling; wahine toa; writing
DATE: 31 May 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast photographer Jac Lynch talks about the Butch on Butch photographic project.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So Butch and Butch was a photo exhibition that was held at photos Space Gallery in Courtney Place for a couple of weeks in January and February 2015. It came out of, um, a a spark of an idea, uh, sort of from mid 2014, where I became aware of the work of Meg Allen, a photographer from San Francisco. Meg's been, um, photographing butchers, Um, for [00:00:30] the last year or so and she's I think her exhibition has been travelling around the States. And, um, when I saw it, uh, some publicity about it came through on Facebook Sunday morning, as you do not quite awake. Saw it come through and thought, I, I reckon we could do something in Wellington like this or why not? You know, So, um, to make myself fully committed to that, I immediately set up, uh, something on Facebook and put out the word to people that [00:01:00] if they wanted to be involved in this in some way, um, to get in touch with me. And when I first, um, was putting out that publicity about it, I couched it in the way of people who self identified as Butch, if they, um if they wanted to be, um, a participant to have their photo taken then, um, you know, we would talk about that and and get that done. [00:01:30] Um, I also made the mistake of, uh, approaching a few people up front about it. And that's, um that was an early learning for me. Where, uh, people say, Why are you asking me? Oh, wow. So you were asking people directly and then So you mean their reaction to being asked about something so specific? Yeah. Yeah, it was It was, uh, I. I self identify as Butch and, um and I thought that some of my friends [00:02:00] did, too. And then I quickly found out that, um they didn't necessarily identify as, uh in the same way that I that I did. So that was, um that was something new for me. And, um, it was good because that lesson was learned pretty pretty early on. And so I completely changed my approach and, um, made it much more around, um yeah, around emphasising if if you self-identity and I didn't approach people after that, [00:02:30] so did any of those original people end up in the exhibition or were those ones that you originally approached directly did? Did you leave those ones and then and then just went to the people who self identified and volunteered themselves? That's right. A big big. None of the original ones were in it, Um, the ones who I approached? No, but but under, um because they didn't see themselves as in the way that I was couching it, which was, if you're Butch, basically [00:03:00] come and be part of this. And I was approaching them along those lines and they weren't seeing themselves like that. So, um, when it was around, if you self-identity as Butch, then, um, then that that was that was open to people coming forward. But But what made it even more open was I um I also said, if, um, if you uh if you feel you're seen as Butch and, um, then you know, you might be interested in this as well. And [00:03:30] that actually got probably half the people who ended up being in the exhibition were people who, um came into it because they didn't necessarily label themselves as anything, but they knew and had experienced for a long time that that other people saw them as as such. Yeah, and I just want to take you back a bit to when you initially saw the other exhibition that, uh, or the the the Was it Mel Allen. Did you say Meg Allen? [00:04:00] Sorry. Um, and it came up on Facebook that jump between seeing that and then wanting to do your own project. Um, what's been your background and history in photography or that that kind of that? Because that's quite a jump to see that to see that of someone else and think, Oh, I could you know, Wellington could have something like that. So could you tell us a bit more about where you come from? I've sort of dabbled in photography. Um, for a few years now, I'd had an exhibition at [00:04:30] photos space before a couple of years earlier. And, um, that was that was from photos I took while I was travelling in Asia. But basically, I was stuck in a motel room on, um for about 10 days and really had nothing, nothing to look at, other than the orange walls of the room and the TV set. So I ended up taking a whole lot of photos of that. And that became an exhibition. Um, yeah, James sets photo space. He's a he's a great guy to talk to. If you [00:05:00] have ideas for things and they appeal to him, he's he's, um he can be really supportive. So he knew of me because I'd done this other exhibition with him. So, um, when I went back and talked to him about the butch and Butch idea and showed him some of my, um, first portraits that I was taking, um, yeah, James was really enthusiastic and liked the story of what was happening with it. Um, my background around the subject area would [00:05:30] be my self identity, as as a butch person. And, um, the the for me. That's the idea that there's a masculinity that's not doesn't necessarily conform with, um, with the social norms around, um, gender roles, gender identity, and so on. And, um uh, yeah, so So Meg Allen's work appealed to me, and I wanted to I just thought, Why not? We [00:06:00] can explore that here as well. Um, I didn't really think it obviously, from what I've already said, I didn't think it through that much before I put the idea out there. But, you know, things evolve and, um, you know, I just kind of feel Wellington's this sort of town where if you do have an idea and you can get people excited about it, then you can just make it happen. And that's pretty much how I approach life here. So and it worked. It worked. Yeah. And [00:06:30] so you've said you you use social media to get people to engage and that you were then waiting for people to come and, um, volunteer themselves for it. What happened after that? Because I know I saw the exhibition. So some of the the photos that you that you were showing, um and I was interested that it seemed like, uh, you picked locations or they picked locations. Maybe that linked that was special to them or linked to their personality. So can you tell us like the that process of how you decided where to take the photos [00:07:00] and how it was all arranged and things like that? That's right. Once, um, once someone got in touch with me about it, and we would, um, would meet and have a have a chat about why they wanted to be part of the project. Um, and it was up to them to decide where they wanted the photo taken. What sort of props? If that's the word for it they wanted around them that were meaningful to them. And, um, for that to help tell their story in the in the pictures, what was also [00:07:30] really important to the project. And I think I really part of why people enjoyed it a lot, as, um is that each of the participants was asked to write a narrative for themselves. Um, 100 and 50 words maximum. And to have that go alongside the photo. And when, um I, I put together a booklet for the exhibition that had both the photo and the person's story next to it. And it I felt that gave, um, [00:08:00] a good balance and, um, kind of a bit more of a wrap around than about the person as an individual than necessarily people just seeing what was what? How they were portrayed in the photo itself. Uh, OK, yeah. So people's the the subjects. I don't know if that's the language you're using. Sorry. What would you What would you use that? I call participant participants. Sorry. Um, they Yeah. So they had a voice within it as well. So as well as the photo, there was also their voice that was included with it. Yeah. [00:08:30] And, um, following the exhibition, pride NZ dot com got in touch, and I had maybe a dozen interviews with the people who are in the exhibition as well. Um, there were 20 photos taken altogether, and 19 ended up going up in the exhibition itself at photos Space. And I've interviewed, I think, around a dozen of the people who were in it just to get even more of a story about them and their experience, [00:09:00] um, of the butch identity And, um or how? How they've been seen as Butch, What that means for them in their lives. Um, and and the broader story about their lives as people. What's been the reaction to it both within the queer community and also maybe outside of the queer community? Because I know at the time there was an article in the Dom Post wasn't there. So I know. What what's been the reaction? Yeah, within those kind of two areas just before [00:09:30] the exhibition started. I think it's because James sent out some publicity to the Dominion Post. Um, they got in touch and ended up running a full page feature with some photos from the exhibition in it. And also an interview with me about it. Um, and about Butch as as an identity. Um, and so that was That was that was great. I got quite a lot of feedback from people that, you know, it was a nice [00:10:00] thing to open Open up over the breakfast. I think it was called, um, being Butch was for how they how they headlined it. And then, um uh, yeah, me sort of leaning nonchalant against a wall in the in the gallery. Um, yeah. So that was that was great publicity for it. And then I had a I had a Facebook page, which is still there. Um and, um, that was people have [00:10:30] been sharing that page. Um, I think there's about 200 likes on that. So I was keeping people up to date with how the project itself was going as I was taking the photos. And then once the exhibition was up with it and the interview started happening was able to put it up through that as well. Um, you know, got really good positive feedback from people about when they came along to the exhibition. We had a big opening, and that was a very hot evening in January, but it was packed out. It was great. It was like an event. [00:11:00] I loved it. Um, And, um, there was, uh it was really helpful that I was able to sell the booklets because I wasn't selling the photos. They've They've all gone back to the participants, and that was a deliberate thing. I. I don't want to sell someone's portrait like that. Um, but selling the booklets helped to finance some of the project. Um, and I also got help from, uh, photographer Jenny O'Connor, who's behind the visible at [00:11:30] 60 project. And Jenny is a great mate of mine. Was really helpful in terms of me looking at the photos with her and, um, getting some sense of, um, you know how they could be created together or, um, where I was mucking up things or you know, those sorts of things because I'm an amateur photographer. I'm certainly not professional, so it was. It was great to have a mentor to help me out there, Um, as well as be able to talk to it and talk [00:12:00] about it with James going through it. So what would you say? I guess that there are two parts to this question. Um, about what you've learned from doing the project. So did you learn anything new or different about the concept of Butch? Um or did anything surprise you about the concept of Butch? Um And also, did you learn? What have you learned about, um, doing projects like that? So setting up projects like that and following them through. So that's two quite big questions, actually. So the question Yeah. And did you learn anything new, [00:12:30] or were you surprised by anything around the concept of Butch and people's discussions around that it was interesting that people wanted to go straight into the butch fem dichotomy and that that wasn't where this was going or what it was about. Um, people even said, Oh, why don't you take, you know, why don't we do one of with S? And why don't you do one of them? Well, I'm not, you know, So [00:13:00] If that's something that people who identify as want to explore their they're the best ones to do it. You know, I'm not going to do that. So it was much more about something that, you know, related to me as a person. Um, what I what I really learned? Um was there was one of the participants, um, Maori. She, um she [00:13:30] heard about it and she approached me and she said, Look, I've talked with some people I. I would like to be part of this. Um, in fact, she was one of the ones I had approached early on, and then she backed off, but then she came back to me. She came back to me after she talked to some of her friends and said, I don't identify as but you don't relate to that. I understand it. Um, but I'm and she was the first person I took a photo of, um and so it's I understand that the [00:14:00] the idea of it has some quite Western meanings to it and that culturally, it's not something that necessarily he transfers across, you know, all sorts of different cultures. Um, however, having it as a very open invitation to people meant that they were, um that people were able to come into it on their own terms. Uh, there was [00:14:30] there was an assumption that everyone and it was lesbian and that I never said it said that that was something that you know that people. So what? What? So the assumption from who? Who? What do you mean? Where did that assumption come from? So you weren't assuming that everybody that that approached was lesbian? But do you mean that everyone that that approach do you think were lesbian? Um, many. Many do identify as lesbian as as well, but there are [00:15:00] certainly other identities there. The invitation wasn't around people's sexual orientation as it was around the word or the term. Um, but so you know, I? I was hoping that there'd be a real range of people who, um, who would get on board. And, um, there was a real range, but it wasn't quite as broad as I want to. I would have loved to have seen some gay guys, for [00:15:30] example. But I wasn't putting it out in that way. And and so having the conversation, for example, with the Dom Post. I didn't go into huge amounts of depth with with the, um, journalists just because I didn't feel like the public was really going to be able to go there in an article around it. Um, um, yeah. So it was There was it was kind of it was kind of tricky. There was an assumption that everyone's a lesbian [00:16:00] and they're not. Yeah, so do you mean when people look at the exhibition and look at the photos? There's an assumption there that that everybody, when they're looking at the photos, there's an assumption that they're looking at lesbians and that the exhibition is a lesbian exhibition. I would certainly go down the track of saying it's a queer exhibition, but that wasn't what I was couching it is. And so in terms of, uh, as a project what you look back now what? What are you pleased with? What would you do differently in terms [00:16:30] of it? Yeah, as a how you constructed it as a project. Um, I My personal, um, learning in life is that I need to think a little bit harder. Wake up, have a few more coffees before I necessarily hit those those buttons on Facebook. Um, but you know that from other things that I probably need to still learn that one. and that, um, [00:17:00] that it's they Yeah, they they just they just do it. Get your ideas. Um, I'm not a professional photographer. I managed to get exhibitions and galleries. You know, um, to me, it's like it's the The point was to to have a community event to have something that, um, why not have it? Why not have it in Wellington? You know, as people were talking about Meg Allen's work, [00:17:30] It's great, You know, it sparked an idea. So, you know, give it a go. Yeah, it's It's all it all it makes for me. What it does is just give me confidence to do other things. Yeah, and nothing was perfect in it, but it But I did it and people were on board with it, and I think people got a lot of people, got something good out of it. And I guess that the obvious kind of next question is have you got thoughts about what you're next thing [00:18:00] project might be, or even where if if this might have sparked something in other people. Could you see a logical type? Where could it go next? I mean, I know it could go anywhere, but what would be your thoughts about, uh, about what next? Whether it was you or somebody else pursuing that. Yeah, I would. I would hope that if people were seeing it is, um, as, uh, as ideas of Well, why don't we do this for this group? You know, why don't we do this around these identities or [00:18:30] and so on that people just decide to do it and go ahead? You know, it's great. Get get this stuff out there, you know, get the discussions going, if that's that's what the basis of it is. But get people involved, you know? It's, um I've got ideas for some other projects that I want to do that are still portrait related, but quite different to this. And so I won't go into that yet. But, um, there are the community project, more community [00:19:00] based projects that I'm also, um, kind of thinking about and and yeah, I want to get off the ground. Um, And as we kind of come to the end of this interview in this discussion. Is there anything that you would like to kind of tell us? Um or that maybe I've not asked about in terms of the the project that you sort of think. Oh, yeah, I Looking back, I would like to just kind of make that clear or tell people a bit more about certain aspects of it. Is there anything you wish you were had been asked? [00:19:30] Um, if people if people have got ideas, but they're feeling like they don't really know quite how to go about it, I'd be I'd be happy to talk to people about it. Um, certainly I can only talk from my experience of it. Uh, but it's, you know, it's not as difficult to do these things as sometimes people might think. And, um so I'm pretty easy to get hold of in Wellington, and I'd be [00:20:00] really happy to talk people through about doing it. I did do it from way to go. I certainly had some great help along the way. Um, but it was kind of basically just take that next step. And I, I really, really appreciate the people who got on board with the with the project and became participants because I think they were, um uh, quite courageous, actually put themselves out there, Um, quite a vulnerable thing to do. Um, my [00:20:30] understanding is that most of them found it really positive for them. I think you're right. As somebody who who has seen the photos and just went as a viewer to the exhibition it that that's what struck me about about how how vulnerable people could potentially be in that in that situation. So, um yeah, to put themselves out there and feel comfortable with people looking at not only photos of them but talking about really personal stuff in their narratives as well. Um, and I guess that's part of how you engaged with them, you know, to get people to that point of feeling that they could, um, be [00:21:00] photographed and talk about those kind of things. So I think I guess there's a lot of yeah, just how you approach approach that project as well. And how you the interaction between you and those people, which seems to me to be, you know, vital in that kind of in that kind of project. Oh, completely. It's it's there's a lot of trust in there. And, um, yes, certainly an aim to to really respect where people were coming from and how they wanted to be portrayed. [00:21:30] And, uh, I feel quite protective of people, to be honest. And I've been asked if I could go to other places, and I've I've said, um I've said no because I think those places should do their own. And I feel like in the context of Wellington, they are all people who are living in Wellington, so felt like their friends and family were coming to the exhibition as well as the others. [00:22:00] But, um but yeah, it was a bit of a cocoon. There's a responsibility, isn't it? Around you've got their identity there and what you then go on to do with it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for, um, talking this afternoon. Um, it's great to hear a bit more about your experience. Um, and how you went about that whole project. And I'm sure we're all looking forward to kind of your next piece of work. So let us know on Facebook as soon as possible. What it is. Thanks, Karen.

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TITLE: Bill Logan - early years of HIV AIDS in Wellington
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VOICES: Bill Logan
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; AIDS Support Network; AIDS Support Network Trust; AIDS roadshow; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Beacons of Hope (Wellington); Bill Edginton; Bill Logan; Bruce Burnett; Candlelight Memorials; Christchurch; Daniel Fielding; David Harper; David Semp; Dorian Society; Dunedin; Eve van Grafhorst; Gary McGrath; Gay-Aid (Wellington); HIV / AIDS; Hamilton; Helen Clark; IV League; If I should die (book); Jane Henson; Jerome Vliestra; John Clements; John Miller; Kevin Green; Lindsay Wright; Manatū Hauora Ministry of Health; Michael Bassett; Michael Kirby; NAMES Project; Neil Thornton; New York City; New York Native (newspaper); New Zealand AIDS Council; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; New Zealand Needle Exchange Programme; Norman Jones; Ottawa Charter for Health Promotion (1986); Out (magazine); Paul Mckay; Paul Reeves; Peter Cuthbert; Phil Parkinson; Pink Triangle collective; QUILTED BANANAS (Wellington Access Radio); Richard Benge; Rob Lake; San Francisco; Shanti Project; St. Marks Baths (New York); Stonewall riots (1969); Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington; Te Omanga Hospice; The Advocate (magazine); United States of America; University of California (UCLA); Victoria Club; Wellington; Wellington Gay Switchboard; Wellington Gay Welfare Group; advertising; alcohol; bogs; books; career; church; closeted; clubs; coming out; community; death; discrimination; drugs; education; encounters; family; gay; gay liberation movement; health; heritage; homophobia; homosexual; homosexual law reform; human rights; language; lesbian; marriage; media; museums; needle exchange programme; parties; peer support; politics; prejudice; prevention; public toilet; role playing; safe sex; saunas; sex; suicide; support; training; volunteer; women
DATE: 19 May 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Bill talks about the early years of HIV AIDS in Wellington, and the response by groups like the Wellington Gay Switchboard and the AIDS Support Network.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I was a late starter. Uh, and I came out really about 1980 in my very early thirties, Um, And at that stage, well, it was still illegal to be gay. It was still, um, a criminal offence to have homosexual relationships. Uh, and so you couldn't [00:00:30] be openly gay and expect to have a reasonable career, Uh, in a very close. Um, there was, um a certain amount of sexual life in the bogs. There were saunas. Uh, there were people who lived in couple relationships. There were a couple of clubs, right. [00:01:00] There was the Dorian Society. Um, and then Victoria Club Stand off. It was, um yeah, very, very private thing to be gay. And there was a in a minute of gay bashing was a scary thing to be. I haven't heard of some of the when you say bogs. So we're talking about public toilets. [00:01:30] What were the public toilets in Wellington that were being used at the time? Well, almost any public toilet was potentially a place where you could meet someone for sexual activity. Um, the public toilets outside. What was then the library? Uh, was one major, um, meeting place for sex, but for many others. And there were two. The two clubs that you mentioned, The Dorian [00:02:00] in the Victoria. What were the differences between those two? Well, the Dorian had been going on much longer. Um, and was, uh, general. It became more a party club, uh, open, particularly on Friday and Saturday nights. Uh, you had to belong to it. And you paid so much to go in. I can't remember [00:02:30] what it was. A very reasonable price to go in. And then you could drink as much as you like when you got in there, Um, the Victoria Club was a bit more select. Um, and it had premises in Oriental Bay, Uh, and, uh, bit more refined. Um, but it was overlapping membership. And so were you a member of both? [00:03:00] Yes. Yes, eventually. Um, but as I say, I think I think the Victoria Club probably didn't start until, say, 1982 or something like that. And you were saying that you were a bit of a late bloomer. So what was What was life like before? Kind of coming out for you? Well, I was married. Um, I didn't even recognise myself as gay until, um, I would say 28 or something. Um, I guess [00:03:30] that it was the possibility of being gay was so scary that I I managed to hide, hide from it completely, even for myself. I didn't have a fantasy life at all, and we use the word gay. But back then what? What were the words that were being used? Homosexual. I suppose gay came to be used in the 19 seventies by certainly by the middle to late [00:04:00] 19 seventies, Gay was used. Yeah. Can you tell me your kind of coming out process? Um, yes, I. I was. I was in New York City and I I had I had been very, very thoroughly involved in politics, left wing politics a A and was [00:04:30] working full time on left wing politics. And I developed a dispute with the organisation I was working for and I was suspended from political activity, wasn't allowed to do the only thing which I enjoyed doing and which I suppose I was hiding in. And in that context, I had a lot of time [00:05:00] to think. I've heard of clergymen who have gone through the same process, actually had a dispute with the church hierarchy and spilling their wheels have started to become aware of their gainers or their gainers have become more pressing. Um, but, um, I had a job dealer working for a rich book dealer, and he [00:05:30] sent me to a another, more downmarket book dealer to look at what they had. See if there were things he should look at And a young man who worked for this book dealer pressed his leg against mine. And so suddenly I realised that I was gay just like that, and I was out of out of that. I was so terrified. I was out of that bookshop. [00:06:00] Uh, very, very, very, very quickly Did what had to be done and ran. Returned an hour later. Yeah, and, uh, yes, uh, had a a nice liaison with the young man. And and that's, um yeah, that's how I discovered by Gay. And, [00:06:30] um, started going to the Saint Mark's baths, which was a sauna, really? A big sauna in New York City. This would have been 1979. Uh, it it was the height of the excitement of being gay just before AIDS was hitting [00:07:00] after the the development, the post stone wall development and things were really buzzing. It was the time to be gay. Uh, it was really something pretty magnificent and I I think that that is actually where the first signals of of of [00:07:30] aids were felt because someone gave me a card saying free checkups and I went for this free checkup, and I said, And would you please additionally give some extra blood for some tests we're doing? There's something going on, and we don't know what it is, but we'd like to [00:08:00] do some study of gay men's blood and I. I don't know I I but I suspect that this was a response to early signs of Of HIV, uh, in New York. And so that was 1979. Um, So I came back to New Zealand in 1980 forgot about it entirely, [00:08:30] And, um, I think it must have been in 1982. I'm not sure of the date. It could have been 1983. There was a group of young younger people coming out at the university who were kind of friends of mine. I was AAA, um I was [00:09:00] tutoring in politics And so I was the oldest of this. This group of perhaps eight guys and some of them came to see me and said, Look, we're reading the stuff from overseas about this peculiar disease among gay people, and I'm full of denial and [00:09:30] look at some homophobic kind of stuff. You know, I shouldn't worry about it too much, and they persisted and found articles and made me read them. And one of them got this fellow John Clements from the Ministry of Health to come up and talk to the group of us on the campus and insisted that I should [00:10:00] share this meeting. There was probably eight or nine of us in the in this little room, and John Clements actually couldn't tell us anything. Um, but he said, Yeah, there's something funny going on, Um, and we don't know anything about it. Perhaps it's perhaps it's because the body doesn't like semen in your anus. Or perhaps it's, [00:10:30] um, some infectious agent, but we can't see anything. You know, we just don't know, Um, and that was the beginning, actually, of quite a long relationship with John Clements, who became the Ministry of Health's expert on on HIV and eventually went to the World Health Organisation. Can I ask, um, back in those early days? So we're talking about 82 [00:11:00] 83. How quickly did news travel say, from the US to here? So when people are coming to you saying I've seen this article, how quickly did that news come? Well, by air mail? Um, a week, Two weeks? You know, there were the advocate. Um, New York native was, uh, a magazine, which carried a lot of the stuff. Um, [00:11:30] And it would get here, you know, fairly quickly. And and people who who were interested would would, um, get it, you know, within less than a month. Anyway. And what was the kind of tone of those articles concerned? Uh, some of it was a little hysterical. Some of it was [00:12:00] reflecting similar values to mine. This is just a hysterical, you know, thing. The heterosexual are trying to scare us out of our, uh, and so there's this debate going on. Um, and I was I was certainly at the and I think the debate here was the same as the debate everywhere else. Really? Um, and I was at the sceptical end of the spectrum and this [00:12:30] and tried to bury my head in the sand. Um, Phil Parkinson didn't let me bury my head in the sand because he he's he read everything very, very carefully and would bring it to me and photocopy these things out and and say, Look, you've got a responsibility to discuss this at the Wellington Gay switchboard, Uh, which is the predecessor [00:13:00] of the Wellington Gay welfare group was the main welfare group in the organ. In, in, in, in Wellington. They tell me exactly what I ought to do, and he was usually right with the bugger. Um and, um so I would, you know, in a semi obedient way, do what I was told. So give me a wee bit of background on on Phil. [00:13:30] Phil was also late bloomer about the same age and came out at about the same time. And he was on the International Committee which determines the scientific name for the various species of algae. Um, he's he's some sort of Renaissance man, you know, He he he he's sort of very [00:14:00] knowledgeable and all sorts of disparate kinds of things. Uh and, um, very clever and and not and not very good socially, but makes up for that by, um, extremely, um, well informed and good at [00:14:30] at, um, compiling and distributing information. He would do that to me, and, uh, he eventually introduced me to Bruce Burnett. I want to get on to Bruce Bennett, uh, a wee bit later on, and we can come back on. But I just would like to know, in terms of that small group meeting up at the university, what was so so they were obviously [00:15:00] interested in what this new thing was. What about the wider gay society? How how were they interested? Not at this stage. No, it's not as far as I know. Um, on the whole, it was, um, I. I look, there might have been some, but I think it was pretty, pretty small group now that that group [00:15:30] at university overlapped with the gay switchboard. And there was some talk about the gay switchboard C circles and gay switchboard is is really important in in everything that happens for the next five years or so. Um, it provides the personnel for the aid support network in Wellington at first, and and also for law reform, too. [00:16:00] Um, so it it's it plays an important role. Where did the gay switchboard come from? It came out of gay liberation. Really? In the late seventies. Like, I mean, probably 78. Something like that. I joined it in about 81. And what was its main purpose? Well, I ran a telephone, um, Council of peer [00:16:30] support service. Really? Um, and that, and And it It also helped run a community centre and did all sorts of other things from time to time as necessary. Were there other, um, kind of peer support groups for LGBT at that time? Oh, there was a small group [00:17:00] with the unfortunate name Gay aid. Um, which might have been two people, um, which wanted to join together with switchboard, But, uh, there was some disagreements on ethical principles, but that's the only the only other one. And how big was the gas switchboard? How many volunteers [00:17:30] at that time? Probably 12 or 14. Mhm. You know, it grew slowly over time. What about internally yourself? I mean, did you ever feel conflicted about being gay or were you once you had that moment in New York that was a I was clear that I was gay. Um, it wasn't. And it wasn't easy to [00:18:00] to make the adjustments to my life as a gay man. I was married, and I didn't I didn't My wife had to adjust to this, and it was a complicated, um, and band, which is not completed. Um, I personally will be you. May [00:18:30] you you can't undo something like a a marriage if if you still love someone, you know, But, um I I was clear that I was gay. There was no doubt about it. For me. Yeah. Then were you openly out? Well, that's it. No, not really. Um, I mean, I was I wasn't [00:19:00] secretive about it, particularly. But it wasn't till, um, homosexual law reform that I had to had to be out. Really? Um, and it was sort of funny situation where we were looking around for someone to front a television appearance for I think the cardinal had made a statement against homosexual law reform, and we needed someone to [00:19:30] get on television to disagree with him. And we looked around and pointed at me and said, You've got two bills, and that's how my family or some parts of my family found out I was gay was on on television, which, uh, it's a very efficient way to get everyone to. You know, you don't have to go around telling people one by one. They just tell them all at once by television. Makes it easier. How did that go down? Oh, not bad. On [00:20:00] the whole, in those early eighties, what was or was there, uh, things like safe sex. I mean, was that was that happening where people using condoms were people didn't use condoms? As far as I know, Before AIDS, before we realised there was an infectious agent, Um, we didn't know what it was, [00:20:30] but we eventually worked out that there must be an infectious agent and, um, started saying, Look, you've got to use condoms and, um, published a leaflet to that effect. Um, in Wellington, we just I think we if I remember rightly or, um, photocopied it or something, like they're very primitive. Anyway, I can't remember exactly how we did it and put [00:21:00] it out at the sauna. And, uh, when there was a big news thing about someone arriving in Wellington, the person we called Gary the first, um, And there was sort of a little bit of hysteria about or actually a big bit of hysteria about in the newspaper. We tried to put out a We put out a reassuring leaflet and one of the places we distributed. It was, uh, at, uh, in in [00:21:30] the the sauna. Um, and use that as an opportunity to say you use condoms. Now, I've seen a video clip. Um, from July 1985 where they're saying it's the first local case in Wellington and there are shots of a leaflet being handed out to gay people. Is that the same? Probably. I can't be sure. Um, what you saw. Uh, but [00:22:00] that sounds like the right time slot. So July 1985. So AIDS would have been known about for what, three or four years? Well, it was known about in in stages, so something was known about, but it wasn't known as aids. Um, and then, even when it was known about it, wasn't known to be caused by an infectious agent. [00:22:30] Um, so, you know, the the the knowledge, even when it was known about, was very, very limited at first. But if I'm not mistaken, the first tests were available in New Zealand in, I think, 1984. Um, and I had one of the the first tests because it seemed the right thing to do. You know, um, what [00:23:00] was that like, considering that 1984 there was no treatment as such was there? Um, II I was a bit scared. Yeah, I didn't feel a great danger. Probably because I have great powers of denial. Um, I probably should have. I mean, I've been at if I think about it at huge danger playing around in New York in 1979. [00:23:30] Uh, if anyone ought to have got the virus, it was me. Um, I've been very, very lucky. Can you recall what was in that, uh, that letter or that that that kind of circular that was printed? No, I can't. I guess it's available in the archive. But what can you recall the the tone? Was it? I mean, was it well, it was attempting to be reassuring and [00:24:00] to say, Look, be safe and you'll be safe. Um, use condoms. You can't get AIDS except by unsafe sex that it's not catchable off door handles. Um, don't worry. Be safe. It'll be OK. It must be one [00:24:30] thing to kind of reassure, say, like the gay community. But another thing, then to take that message to the wider community, how how are they reacting? Oh, there's a huge amount of hysteria, and it was very difficult not to be flippant sometimes. I. I remember some argument in the newspaper about what happened. If, um, you know, someone came across someone in the street and how [00:25:00] would they know if they had a a or someone was collapsed in the street and so on? I think I made a statement that I But as long as you weren't intending to have sex with someone you picked up on the street, I think it would be OK. Probably. What about within the gay community itself? I mean, was there, um you know, tension of people being frightened or or complacency how, How, How [00:25:30] how the the range of emotions. You know, um, when Gary the first arrived, we got this call, and, um, I took him to see John Miller at his home. There was already news articles about him. So on the minute the medical officer of Health had rung the switchboard, [00:26:00] wanting to make sure that he was being looked after properly. And they were worried that he was a drug addict and mentally unbalanced. And, you know, we had They thought he was sex crazed. And so we we never having met him, we had to calm them down Then. Then he then we met him and took him round to John Miller [00:26:30] had a long talk with him there and made sure that there was a relationship between them that was going to work. And, of course, he was only too happy because he'd found a good doctor who was going to look after him. And that made everyone happy because the medical officer of health knew that he was in the hands of a doctor and that there was a network of support around him and so on. [00:27:00] Um, John Miller rang me up and said, Look in, you're going to laugh, Bill, this is really ridiculous. But after you'd taken Gary, um, I boiled the cup and saucer that he used and [00:27:30] I. I think that's that's emblematic of the of the general social fear that permeated the whole of society, including gay society. And John knew that it was stupid, but the fear was so great and so irrational that people did irrational things. And, [00:28:00] um I mean, this fellow Gary, his family were homophobic anyway, but he was close to a brother, but the brother wouldn't let him anywhere near his Children. And, um, it was the whole thing was a disaster. And he suicide [00:28:30] within six weeks. And that was was a terrible, ghastly situation. Everyone was completely devastated. And, you know, I think we counted it as a as a, um, complete failure from the point of view of doing our job, which we saw as supporting people, [00:29:00] you know? But, um, was there, like, 100% support from people in the gay switch board or because I can imagine that some people would go the other way and kind of ostracise? I don't think there's anyone in the gay switchboard who would have had that position at all. No. Um, I don't [00:29:30] think they would have got away with it. If they did, they would have just sort of moved on. Um, I don't don't say there would have been a fight about it or anything like that, they just would have felt out of place. I'm sure that there was a level of prejudice in some parts of the gay community and come coming out in odd ways. So, you know, rumours [00:30:00] that someone might have HIV or aids or that sort of thing. Sometimes you briefly mentioned before Bruce Burnett. Can you tell me a bit about him? Hm? He he was a brilliant, charming guy, highly educated social worker who had been [00:30:30] to UCL a studied. And I and, um had also got involved in the shanty project, uh, which has a particular take on caring for people with HIV. And he's also he also had a He wasn't a political [00:31:00] person by nature, but he he developed a good political instinct, and, um, he he he would he could he he could see it. I see the importance of politics and could see, uh, how to find political people and use them. And, um, you know, he Yeah, he he got me onto the political side of things. [00:31:30] He got people motivated. He was an inspiring sort of fellow kind of charisma, so he he only lived two years in New Zealand. But, uh, in that time he managed to get a job with the that he had had to be made especially for him with the Ministry of Health. And, [00:32:00] um, he put together this network with strong branches or whatever they called them in in Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch and and outlying bits in Hamilton and Dude And I think, and probably other places, um, and [00:32:30] ran these workshops using videos and all the ordinary techniques of listening and empathise and mostly training people to to be buddies of people with HIV, but also [00:33:00] making people think about it all, um, and educating people a bit in safe sex or safe for six and building this aid support network as a and then we saw this as a purely voluntary thing, which would be [00:33:30] ancillary to the main publicity work, which would be done by the ministry, which we saw sort of the way things were done. But then the ministry just didn't seem to want to do anything. This is the Ministry of Health. So we we, um, thought about this and argued about this. So must [00:34:00] have been Christmas 84 94 94 84 Christmas 84 that I spent with Bruce in Auckland, and we I talked a little bit with ministry officials, and someone had said, You know, it's too much of a hot potato [00:34:30] for the ministry and there's lots of things in the New Zealand health system which are done by independent charities. Think of Plunkett and I was discussing this with Bruce, and I said, We've got to We've got to have a something like that. And so we set up the AIDS Support [00:35:00] Network Trust. We made some telephone calls and broke into John Clements Christmas holidays to see if this is like to like me to fly. And he said he thought it would. And we made a list of potential trustees. One of them was, um what's his name? Paul, [00:35:30] who became governor general. Oh, Reeves. Yes. So he was going to be a trustee, and he accepted. And then he had to say, Look, I've got to turn you turn you down. I'm very sorry. Um, we didn't know why. And then I found out why. Um, excellent. Actually, he's much more valuable to us as Governor [00:36:00] General. And he was as trustee. We set up this trust in early 1985 but Bruce didn't live much longer. He died, I think, in May, May 1985. And we changed the name to AIDS AIDS Foundation. Mhm. I just want to go back on a on a couple of things [00:36:30] when you say that the Ministry of Health thought it was a bit of a, uh, hot potato in terms of, uh, prevention messages coming directly from the Ministry of Health. Why do you think that was? There's several things we had to tell gay men how to have sex. And they're quite right that gay men don't want to be told how to have sex by the ministry of anything, um, [00:37:00] or by streets or anything else that that's part of it. But also, I think they did actually bring out one or two ads, and they really weren't great ads. There was one about you trying to sell condoms and its about parachutes, skydiving without a parachute. And I mean, it was [00:37:30] a little difficult to work out. What, what? What you were supposed to do. Um, so to get something through the ministry, the the process of a ministry that was going to work would be difficult. So, er yeah, they were right, they couldn't do [00:38:00] it. And, um, it was it was necessary to do it this way. And we we when we saw that it was possible, Bruce, I said, Right, we better go to the minister now And we hadn't spoken. We hadn't. We hadn't thought at this level of politics. We've been dealing with bureaucrats before that, but now is the time [00:38:30] to go and see better. And so Bruce and I go and knock on the door. Will we bring up and make an appointment and so on? And Bassett says, I don't think aids will be a real problem. I don't think you need to worry very much, and you could see his officials sort of fidgeting. And, uh, he says, I think it's only [00:39:00] some gay men who have some particular kinds of practises who are likely to get this disease. And Bruce nearly exploded at that point, and I I had to say no. Now, Bruce, it'll be OK and I said, No, I think you should talk to your officials because actually, it's something which is spreading among a wide [00:39:30] section of the gay community, and it's going to be a very, very real problem. So we're asking for $200,000 and I think they gave us the law, or at least half of them. Um, much more than we expected to start off. And that was only a starter. They they they were. They gave us a very, you know, I think they gave us huge budget very quickly [00:40:00] to to deal with the starting up of this thing. And that was Michael Bassett. Yeah. Yeah. So can you recall your first meeting with Bruce Burnett? Yes. Uh, it was in my shop. I had a little bookshop that the stage was in Far Street, which is now part of Victoria Street Little book shop. And, um, Phil brought him in when he'd arrived. [00:40:30] Uh, and, um, he was going to be giving a a lecture. And he we're going to be in the library lecture of the place, which doesn't exist any longer. Um, we've arranged to pick up a video recorder or some projector or something from me. And that's when I first met him. And we chatted [00:41:00] for a few minutes what? We talked on the phone before. And so and that would have probably been in or say August 84. So was this one of, um, Bruce's aides travelling road things? So he went, Did he go up and down the country? He must have visited Wellington two or three times. [00:41:30] Yeah. So those roadshow presentations, who were they aimed at? Well, various people, Um, the general public, the AIDS com community, the gay community, and people who were volunteers. So there's three different categories. Um, we had very early on [00:42:00] a an all day workshop in Turnbull house. I've got some photographs of it somewhere. Um, that was a a workshop, training people to be buddies, um, and then I, I think in the same trip, there was this public talk in the what was called the Library Lecture Theatre in [00:42:30] the old library building, and that it was probably a different trip where he talked in the Dorian Society aimed at anyone in the gay community who is interested. And how were those talks received, or anyone who was there was really interested. Um, no one came who was going to be [00:43:00] hostile at all. He was a good speaker. Um, he was engaging. He was warm speaker. Now, I don't think we've actually put this on the recording here, so I might just say that my understanding, the the narrative that that I know is that that Bruce was in San Francisco, um was feeling ill and around about 83 came back to New Zealand and then started doing kind of AIDS [00:43:30] education and and, um, support. Is that kind of your understanding? I'm not sure if he was in San Francisco or Los Angeles. I'm just I don't don't know that he had a lot of his education in Los Angeles prior to him coming back and and and doing that kind of, um, AIDS education Were you were saying that the that the switchboard was doing stuff around AIDS? Were was [00:44:00] anybody else doing either support or education or not that I know of in Wellington? Well, not that I know of at all. And how did the say that the gay switchboard fit into the aid support network? Did it kind of? It was the same people doing some of the stuff. Yeah. I mean, not all switchboards joined the aid support network, but most did. Um, [00:44:30] And, uh, increasingly, people who weren't switch borders, uh, would join the aid support network, too. Um, the switchboard was gay in only, for example, whereas, um, women, lesbians and and, um, heterosexual women, the heterosexual women [00:45:00] tended to be but weren't exclusively nurses or counsellors. Um, but that's an exaggeration. And, um uh, there was some church people, so So So, yeah, it it it became broader over time. And you briefly mentioned, um, the shanty project. And my understanding is that the aid support network was based [00:45:30] on the principles of the shanty project. What were those principles? Well, it probably was. And a lot of the resources, the films, the the the videos were shanty things, but it was never It was never explicit that the Aid Support Network had to follow the principles of the shanty project, and I never bothered to find out what the principles of the shanty project were. [00:46:00] Um, I gathered that they were in some way inspired by some sort of Eastern religious things, which I instinctually thought I probably wouldn't be very interested in. Um, but it didn't seem to matter very much. It was a practical thing as far as I was concerned. Can you describe some of the workshops that the the network undertook? Sure, [00:46:30] there would often be a video which would perhaps simply show a buddy and someone with AIDS doing some things together, uh, and shows some typical life situations of, say, shopping or making [00:47:00] a meal or whatever. And either being too tired to do it or having some energy, um, of wanting to have some fun. Um, and they're just modelling how you support someone, Uh, and perhaps how you face how you talk about feeling [00:47:30] processing incidents of prejudice that are experienced or, um, unpleasant things which happen. Um, that might be typical for someone, uh, where they had some bad news that you received medically or or whatever. Um, so it might. It might start off with a bit of video like that, [00:48:00] and in fact, there might be several such bits of video like that through a day's workshop. And Bruce might talk about some of his experiences, um, with people that he had worked with and perhaps, um, some experiences in New Zealand to [00:48:30] to make it more concrete and real, and then they'd often be. Or there'd always be some role plays where people would role play and there'd be fish ball role plays where people would role play. Two people would role play something, a conversation in front of everyone. Um, [00:49:00] Bruce would be the buddy first perhaps, uh, or someone more experienced would And, um then some other people would. And then everyone would be in small groups with perhaps, um, an observer and two people doing the role play. And can you describe, [00:49:30] um, the atmosphere in those workshops? It could be quite emotional because a lot of us knew each other fairly well, and we were role playing our impending demise. And that was quite heavy. Sometimes. [00:50:00] Yeah, you know, you you you you're sitting next talking to a buddy about the fact he's going to die in the next. You know, a few weeks, a few months, men, people with AIDS died fairly quickly on the whole, um so it it it could be quite heavy and quite scary in that you were facing up to [00:50:30] the fact that we were in the midst of an epidemic which seemed to be out of control. And you could be safe personally, but your community wasn't safe. So in these workshops was Bruce open about his own health issues? He was open that [00:51:00] he had an AIDS related condition. Um, he wasn't necessarily open about how seriously he ill he was all the time. One of the things that's always, um, you know, I'm just so in admiration of Bruce about is being kind of out there in the mainstream media, not only talking about aids, um, but also talking about his homosexuality, [00:51:30] And I kind of wonder, do you have any thoughts on? Like, where that kind of Where does that energy come from? I. I don't want to, um I don't want to belittle him in any way, but, um, he he didn't think he had long to live. He didn't have much to lose. Um, he had a passion to do something about this and to change this, [00:52:00] Uh, it it the sense in which this was his reason for living. And I think that in some ways life was very hard for him. But mm, for doing all this made it worthwhile. So in Wellington, who were the the the main people involved with the aid support network. Well, when David [00:52:30] Harper was one, he became chair immediately after me. Um, David Kevin Green. Then later on Lindsay Wright. Bill Edington Um Neil Thornton was very important. Paul [00:53:00] McKay, Rob Blake, Jerome Jerome bleeds. And you also mentioned Phil Parkinson, Phil Parkinson years. Although I don't know that he did, he did. He did the workshops and things and then, um, later on, Jane Henson and no [00:53:30] other names have gone the the name Aid Support Network. I'm wondering, how much of a network was it say between centres say, like Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch Or were they quite individual groups of people? Well, we had meetings, national meetings and communication between the centres Um sense of democracy of a [00:54:00] Did you sense there was a different kind of vibe between the different centres? Not particularly. There wasn't a sense of decisions being made in a particular place because there were no decisions to make. You know, there wasn't a it was just just work and and education. It wasn't any decisions were what should go on the workshop, which we were happy for Bruce to decide [00:54:30] how the how the how the workshops were put together. It wasn't It wasn't a bureaucracy. It wasn't a It wasn't a It wasn't an organisation, Really. It was a a collaboration. Uh, it it it it it it didn't have a budget. Um, so there was no squabbling over resources? Um, there weren't any. [00:55:00] So So do you think that changed Possibly when it moved into the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, where you did have a budget? Slowly. Yeah. Um, I think inevitably, as you as you grow as you become more dependent on government as you have to fulfil criteria laid down in contracts, [00:55:30] Um, yeah. As you have staff that are controlled from a central point, things change. Um, we had branches, we had branch meetings, we had branch chairs and we would [00:56:00] decide on who was going to look after someone. And, you know, it wasn't It wasn't a difficult. It wasn't as if there was any power over or anything. It was, but it was. It was self organisation. Um, and as you as you develop a a staff, there's no self organisation. [00:56:30] It's it's it's a top down organisation, and it's a very different kind of field. You no longer need a local committee and so there's no sense of power over the organisation and so there's no sense of community ownership of the organisation and I think that's a big problem for an organisation like the AIDS Foundation. Because [00:57:00] hm, you need community feeling of ownership of the organisation if the organisation is going to be listened to and being listened to is the most important thing that the organisation has. So I don't think people listen to the organisation anymore because they don't feel they own it. [00:57:30] Um, it's become simply an arm of the ministry, and I think that that's difficult. Speaking of of listening to messages, I'm wondering when it was the Aid Support network, How did you get the message out? Was it through things like radio print? How did how did you get the message out? Well, a whole lot of different ways. Um [00:58:00] A and a lot of it was leaflets that were handed out at the clubs and the saunas. Um, there were also gatherings. Um, people had gatherings in their home. Um, where, you know, people talk safe sex [00:58:30] for a while. Probably only six months. There were three or four of these a week. Um, if I remember rightly, I'm really interested in the kind of language and imagery that was used in those early kind of prevention and the education messages. And I'm just wondering, can you talk a wee bit about, um, that kind of language that was being used to target specific groups? [00:59:00] I don't think we were very sophisticated. And I don't think that we thought of targeting specific groups. I think that we, uh, were careful not to use fear tactics. Um, I think that we Yeah, said, look, you can be safe, that it's not [00:59:30] easy to catch this virus except with anal sex without a condom. Um, we might have even gone further than we ought to in saying that everything else is safe. Um, I don't think we lost too many points that way or too many lives, but it seems to be such a contrast. Um, for instance, the the parachute safe sex ad or condo. Actually, [01:00:00] it is, um, we you know, it's there's nothing sexualized or anything, you know, it's like people jumping out of a plane. Um, compared to some of the leaflets that I've seen which are pretty blunt in terms of their messaging. Yeah, we we we we weren't afraid to be sexual. I knew it was about six. And how did the Ministry of Health respond to the to that? I think they were only too pleased for us to do it as [01:00:30] long as they didn't have to. Um I mean, they they're not stupid. They they just don't want to have to answer to a minister for that sort of thing. They know that That's how you stop HIV. And the minister wants these things too, because he doesn't want a bill for HIV. He just doesn't want newspapers. And and and so So [01:01:00] they just want to distance themselves from their religious nutters and and, um, other people who might kind of criticise them for being responsible for this stuff. What about the coverage in in Rainbow Media? So I'm thinking of things like, say, the lesbian community programme on radio or think triangle of the magazine. I don't read the lesbian press, so I can't, uh uh, comment. Pink was [01:01:30] pretty damn good. Um, Out magazine was, um, sometimes better than others. Um, and, uh, I had some funny ideas at one stage and uh, we had some difficulties in terms of getting condoms into their saunas at one stage because they were scared that by having condoms in their saunas that [01:02:00] this would be an admission that gay sex passed on HIV and would cause them to be closed down. And we had to actually be quite heavy with them over that and say, Look, if you don't have them, you will have to be closed down. We did that in the nicest possible way. Otherwise, it would have been [01:02:30] disastrous to close them down. Actually, we they the saunas, were in some ways the most important site of safe sex education. Um, but, um, it it would have been easy for them not to be if we'd gone along with what the proprietor of the Empire would have liked running alongside, Um, the emergence of AIDS in New [01:03:00] Zealand was the homosexual law reform in what kind of came to a head in 85 86? How did AIDS affect the homosexual law reform campaign? Well, quite directly. Um, some time in 90 85 um, there was a television, um, [01:03:30] documentary, not documentary panel discussion on on AIDS, which I represented the AIDS foundation in because, uh, Bruce was sick. And, um, the minister of health was there. I think he had to phone in or something. And we were all in this panel. [01:04:00] The ministerial bureaucrats and doctors and things like that absolutely agreed that condoms freely available condoms and, um, homosexual law reform were absolutely essential for preventing the spread of HIV. And that was very, [01:04:30] very clear and was a perfect example of the way in which the two things fitted together. The interesting thing is that someone then rang in with a question saying, But what about people who inject themselves with drugs? And I said, Well, [01:05:00] the same principles apply. We've got to make needles available to everyone without fear of prosecution. And Michael Bassett, the minister. It sort of exploded. So I don't think that's all. No, no, that's not possible. Well, you've got to decide, don't you? Whether you want to be, uh, responsible for the spread of AIDS or its prevention, you better talk to your officials again, haven't you? I'm absolutely [01:05:30] terrified. I've never done anything like this before On television. Um, and very shortly afterwards, we had the needle exchange system. So I mean, the the point. The point is that there is a very clear relationship between [01:06:00] human rights and public health that you've got to be able to discuss your health status freely and have a certain amount of capacity to have self esteem about it in order to be able to to address health issues. So, [01:06:30] um, I think I think that AIDS was actually really very, very important, uh, in getting homosexual law reform through and the debate around homosexual law reform was also really important in educating people about HIV and the need for condoms. [01:07:00] Aid was also used by the opponents of homosexual law reform. Can you tell me a wee bit about that? And and what? What they were trying to do? Oh, yeah. Um, gay plus gay equals aids is one of the slogans, and they're trying to simply identify gaze as the carriers of a deadly disease which would infect the whole world. [01:07:30] But the science was the knowledge, the the the the facts were against them. Really? Um, in the, uh, it it affects people who have sex with gays. But if you don't have sex with someone, who's got carries it, then you're safe. So did you ever feel that, um, aids could derail law reform? I was never confident [01:08:00] that, um, that law reform would go through. Um, and there were ways in which AIDS could be extremely dangerous. Um, for example, uh, some crazy people on our side suggested we should threaten to to pass on [01:08:30] HIV to straits if it didn't go through. And that was not a very intelligent kind of strategic thought. Uh, and that could have been if that had got out too much and did get out a little bit. Um, that could have but in the normal course of events, uh, AIDS was not likely to do us any damage. Do you have any comments [01:09:00] on people like, say, the MP Norman Jones, who kind of tied AIDS and homosexuality together? I think Norman Jones was one of the people who did more good for our cause than anyone else he was. I mean, he's a he's quite a nice guy, um, with a a warped worldview. [01:09:30] But he was so, so crazy that he kept the debate going usefully, and he was rather obviously wrong. I think he did this more good than her thinking of, um, stigma [01:10:00] and discrimination. And I'm wondering, you know, was did you see yourself? Stigma and discrimination say, amongst health professionals around AIDS in the eighties. OK, Yeah. The hospice wouldn't take people with AIDS for a long time. The Wellington hospital for a long time [01:10:30] insisted that people with HIV use plastic knives and forks, but no one else all sorts of nonsense. Um, and of course, we make a noise. And often the nurse that we'd be talking to would have been there and saying rude things to and saying This is just not on [01:11:00] would have been the one who'd been arguing with her seniors on our side, taking the flag, which wasn't very fair. But, um, no, There's some bad stuff. I remember seeing, uh, a a TV news item about Tom McLean in Wellington Hospital and about how his friends had to all gown up every time they saw him. Um, did you have much to do with Tom? [01:11:30] Yeah, I knew Tom Quite well. Um, I don't remember gowning up for him. I might just have refused. I can't remember. I can't remember gowing up for anyone. I think the the the new story was about, um, yes, his his people, coming to visit him had to, you know, wear masks and gloves. And, um and then when he was able to go home, [01:12:00] um, there was none of that required. And he was thinking, you know, what is this? But he was also quite public, wasn't he? I mean, he was, you know, as he was dying, he was he was being interviewed for TV. No, he he he was, uh, an amazing fellow. He, uh, funny little chap, Scotsman who, uh, did a lot of work for homosexual law reform and, uh, [01:12:30] then had a test and found out he was positive, wrote that book and really wanted to see it published. It was published the week before he died. Um, Helen Clark did the honour that she was minister of health at the time she launched the vote, and, uh, he he lasted another week. [01:13:00] And actually, there was a It was, I think, over Easter he died. And, uh, there was a gay conference on, so we and it had a big support team, But everyone was tired, so it was actually my mother who was with him when he died? Um just quietly slipped away at night. What was the title of that book? [01:13:30] If I should die Seemed an interesting title. It's rather likely we all will. Thinking of, um, ways that we remember people. Um, AIDS has brought a number of things like, um the the the names project, the AIDS memorial quilt and also things like candlelight. Were you involved in either of those two things? No. Just as a someone [01:14:00] who went along with them. And can you describe what they were like in the late eighties? Or Richard Ben organised the first candle light one. And that was amazing because he's he's he made these huge beacons, uh, with them on big polls with them [01:14:30] kerosene soaked beacons. And I think the first one was at Parliament and the second was around Frank Kitts Park. If I remember rightly and they were, they were big and spectacular and bold and very, very moving, I found not mistaken is then graft host [01:15:00] spoke at the second one. I think they were at night. Um and there's something about fire and and very, very, very primal. Can you describe what It was like in the late eighties and early nineties, where there was such kind of sickness and death. Because, of course, all the anti. [01:15:30] You know, the antiviral drugs haven't kind of come in and they came in in the mid nineties. So So what was it like for you in the late eighties? Yeah, I wrote a list. Um, of the people I knew who died about 46. I don't know that it's possible to talk about it. Really? Because [01:16:00] it's not something you can compare with anything. Um, I suppose it's a bit like a war. The first man I loved. Guys that I partied with, young man. I saw coming out [01:16:30] people who lived in our house and were friends. I guess that it's difficult to know what what effects these things have on you because you don't know what the alternative was. You don't know what life would have been. [01:17:00] Um, one of my very, very best friends is still alive. He's not got the virus. Hey, um, works as a cleaner drinking far too much because all his friends are dead. You've mentioned a number [01:17:30] of people through through the recording, and I'm wondering, Are there people that you would like to talk about that we haven't touched on yet? We really should talk about Gary. The second, Gary McGrath, who must have arrived in back in Wellington in late 1984 [01:18:00] from Melbourne. And I was on switchboard duty and a call from someone in the Victorian AIDS Council. They said, We've got this guy's coming back I said, I said, What sort of a guy is he? I said, Oh, we don't really know quite what to make of him. There's a bit of a rogue and, uh, but quite engaging. [01:18:30] But he's not quite wrong to live. They lived for quite a long time, and, um, he was a drug user. He's also gay. He had a big role in setting up the needle exchanges. He set up something called the Ivy League. He hadn't any experience in politics, but he got a sense that it was important. [01:19:00] And he asked, he he he, you know, asked me what to do. And I sent him off to a lawyer friend of mine who gave him some free legal help setting up a trust and set up the Ivy League and got onto the board of the AIDS Foundation. Pushed towards the needle exchange, um, or to the needle [01:19:30] exchange system. And, um, yeah, had a huge impact. I never quite knew what was true. And what was make believe with Gary. He, uh, minister was always about to come to lunch, and lots of money was about to arrive. Was often bullshit. [01:20:00] But sometimes the Minister actually did come to such and sometimes money did arrive. And sometimes even from legitimate sources, Um, um, uh, yeah, he played a huge, a huge role. Um, and, you know, might as an individual have had as much [01:20:30] impact as most of the people we talked about. Except perhaps Bruce, but his and his different style is not likely to be remembered. Um, no, he's he's important. Um, is there anyone else? Peter, Um, who was, [01:21:00] um, early on, um, one of the, um Peter and daniel were among the first cohort to be diagnosed with HIV. They would have been tested the same week. I was, um and, um, would have tested positive. Um, and [01:21:30] he was on the New Zealand AIDS Council and his partner, Daniel lived a lot longer and was on the board of the AIDS Foundation. They were both very effective organisers. Very effective, um, at mobilising people at making the bureaucracy work. Um, getting results [01:22:00] out of the system. And isn't Peter cut his panel on the AIDS Memorial Court? Is that the first New Zealand panel? I think that's quite likely. And and that was the A quarter in New Zealand was established by Daniel Daniel Fielding. That's quite likely. Yeah, Yeah, that that would That would make sense. What? Do what do you think of something like the the AIDS quilt? Yeah. I mean, I I think [01:22:30] that, um we've got to find ways to remember and I I think that was lost track a wee bit in separating out, caring for people, preventing the spread and remembering. And these things have become separated and [01:23:00] I. I actually think that Oh, they're an integrated whole. Obviously there's got to be a division of labour and all but III I I think that I think that I think I think that they're all I think they actually relate to one another and build on one another much, much more than they've been allowed to in recent years. [01:23:30] And, um, I think that Justice Kirby was talking about a a queer museum, and I think that's important. But I think that it's important not only because we need to honour the past and [01:24:00] note the injustice and and remember the injustices of the past and in order to prevent injustices in the future, but that the fight against injustice and the fight for health are very closely tied together and and can and can be more closely tied together. And the fight for for health can [01:24:30] be part of a museum project. Um, so I I, I'd like more thought about. Also, it's a way of getting funding for it, probably, and it's perfectly consistent with the Ottawa Charter, which is supposed to be the the principles of health. Promotion is enshrined in this document, which says that it's only through the struggle [01:25:00] for human rights that you're going to get a healthy community. I. I actually believe that I don't know that they, the Ministry of Health, does. How do you think a. I DS and HIV have changed you? It's I. When I was saying before I, it's difficult to [01:25:30] to imagine a an alternative reality. You, You know, you are who you are. And you, um when this started, I was more or less a political scientist. And it's been part of the process which has turned me and her all sorts of other things. Yeah, there's no doubt I'm a completely [01:26:00] different person because of HIV in in every in every way. I turned care to imagine what I would have been like if I if it hadn't have been Probably, uh I think perhaps I, I, uh uh, if I were really selfish, I'd I'd have to say that, um it's been a bloody good thing for me. Um, in terms of making me a person [01:26:30] better than I would have been, um, comes at a cost, that's all.

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TITLE: Bill Logan - homosexual law reform
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VOICES: Bill Logan
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; Alison Laurie; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Australia; Bigot Busters conference (1985, Wellington); Bigot Busters rally (1985, Wellington); Bill Logan; Black Liberation; Brett Rawnsley; Campaign for Homosexual Equality (CHE); Capital Books; Crimes Amendment Bill (1974, Venn Young); Crimes Amendment Bill (1979, Warren Freer Bill); Cynthia Bagwash; David Hindley; Des Smith; Dominion (newspaper); Dominion Post (newspaper); Dorian Society; Ewen Painter; Fran Wilde; Friedrich Engels; Gay Liberation Front; Gay Liberation Front Wellington; Gay Liberation Wellington; Gay Task Force; General election (1984); Geoff Braybrooke; Graeme Lee; Graeme Russell; HIV / AIDS; Heterosexuals Unafraid of Gays (HUG); Homosexual Electoral and Legislative Lobby (HELL); Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Homosexual Law Reform Society; Human Rights Act (1993); Ireland; James Heslop; Jaycees; John McDavitt; Karl Marx; Keith Hay; Kevin Green; Knox Church Hall; Lesbian and Gay Fair; Lesbian and Gay Rights Resource Centre; Liberalism; Linda Evans; Lou Sheldon; Member of Parliament; National Gay Rights Coalition; National Party; New South Wales; New York City; New Zealand Labour Party; Norman Jones; On the equality of orifices (leaflet); Parliament buildings; Peter Sumner; Phil Parkinson; Philip Healy; Porleen Simmonds; Red Flag Union; Robin Duff; Rotary Club; Salvation Army; Stonewall Inn; Stonewall riots (1969); Tighe Instone; Trevor Mallard; Trotskyism; United States of America; Venn Young; Victoria Club; Warren Freer; Wellington; Wellington Gay Switchboard; Wellington Gay Task Force; Wellington Gay Welfare Group; Wellington Trade Fair; activism; age of consent; agenda; allies; anal sex; anger; archives; bogs; books; campaigns; census; church; coming out; communism; community; compromise; decriminalisation; demonstrations; discrimination; documentary; employment; feminism; finances; flamboyant; freedom; friends; fun; gay; gay liberation movement; grassroots movement; hair; health; heterosexual; history; homosexual; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; human rights; law; lesbian; marriage; marriage equality; media; misogyny; mobilisation; oppression; patriarchal system; photo journalism; photography; police; politics; prejudice; propaganda; public toilet; rage; raids; religion; repression; respect; revolution; rhetoric; secularism; separatism; sex; social change; socialism; suicide; support; unions; university; victim mode; visibility; women
DATE: 9 June 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Bill talks about being part of various groups that rallied in support of homosexual law reform.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm Bill Logan, And, um, I was, uh yeah, I was in the seventies. I was I was actually married, um, and living the life of a a political activist, Uh, and a supporter of gay liberation. But seeing that as as an outsider, really, but came [00:00:30] to awareness of myself as gay, really? In 1978 79 came back to New Zealand in 1980 um, was teaching politics at the, uh, and started to get involved with the gay community centre and, uh, the gay switchboard. Um, [00:01:00] in about 1983 I suppose it was the beginning of 83. I got a started. Well, I bought the remnants of a bookshop and rebuilt it as a bookshop. Capital books. Um, and, uh, that became a bit of a a bit of a community centre. Uh, which is good fun. Didn't make any money, but it was, uh it was good fun. [00:01:30] Uh, and it was from there, in a way, that part of my role in in, um, homosexual law reform again just going back to the seventies. And you you were talking about that you were aware of things like gay liberation and gay rights. What was happening overseas at the time? What? What? How How were you aware of it? I had friends, political friends. I was a Trotskyist. And [00:02:00] the branch of Trotsky is I was interested in were very involved in in, um, gay liberation. Um, we had a A a revolutionary attitude towards gay liberation. Uh, there was a, uh, an organisation called the Red Flag Union that the organisation I was involved with joined together with and fused with and became one [00:02:30] with, um and, um, so, you know, they were comrades. Um, so there was a a sort of AAA mix of ideas and a and a an understanding that, um there was the possibility of learning something about the way human beings worked and the way society could change, uh, and develop through an understanding of [00:03:00] sexuality and the possibilities inherent in sexuality And, uh, things like the limitations of the bourgeois family and things all you know, all sorts of ideas like that which were reemerging in the 19 seventies, which, of course, had been thought through in slightly different ways by Frederick Engels and Marx in the 19th century. Um, but they were sort of bubbling [00:03:30] up to the surface again at that stage. And so it was an exciting time in the in, in in the ideas world of Trotsky is at that stage and for gay liberation. What were the fundamentals of gay liberation to be released from the the, um, heterosexual patriarchy, I guess. Um, yeah. So in the late seventies, you were based in New York for part of that time. Yeah, [00:04:00] and we're thinking of things like Stonewall the Stonewall. Riots happened in 69. What was the kind of gay political scene in in New York in the late seventies? Like, I wasn't involved in it myself, but I had friends who were, um I couldn't talk about it. Really? Except that we're talking small groups. We're talking about a tremendous sense of change. Uh, [00:04:30] we're talking about consciousness raising. We're talking about a lot of things which were coming out of feminism and, uh, also out of, uh, black liberation being sort of transformed into into gay politics. Uh, a lot of the personal is political. Um [00:05:00] uh, a lot of, uh, trying to fight against stereotypes. A lot of, uh uh, wanting to live stereotypes and not having to hide gayness. Uh, so you know, both both sides of it. You know, um, not not not hide the fact I'm gay, but not have any assumptions that I'm going to be a particular way because I'm gay. Uh, [00:05:30] and a lot of the the beginnings of things that we find normal now, but perhaps perhaps exaggerated a bit because, you know, you've got to got to exaggerate in order to make a point. So what would be an example of a normal thing that we would consider normal now? Well, just that, um, I'm not going to hide the fact that I'm gay at work. Um, So people would be [00:06:00] flamboyant at work, uh, and lose their job sometimes. Um, well, often, Um, and we have an argument about that, but of course, that would be pretty rare. It'd only be in special workplaces that you could do that, but there'd be big discussions around those problems in deliberation. Collectives. So where [00:06:30] is it safe to come out? Whether it's wise to win the situation, what risks is it worth taking? Can you compare what? Not sure if you can. What? What? Uh, New York in the late seventies was like to then coming back to New Zealand in the early eighties. Well, surprisingly similar in a way. But the numbers are different. The scale is different. You know, um, there was a gay liberation group here. [00:07:00] Um, but you're talking about a smallish group rather than lots of groups. Uh, you're talking about being able to get at the most 30 people on our A demonstration for a deliberation thing here, where if you get a few 100 in, uh, Manhattan, [00:07:30] but the same kinds of meetings and and, um, IIII, I suppose one of the things which became common in both places was, um, meetings about the process of coming out that would be very typical in both places. Um, lots of coming out groups and and and groups for people who'd been out for a while. A lot of people hadn't. [00:08:00] And coming out with a a lot of people who'd been out within a small group hadn't really been out. And so coming out with something which was new, uh, and people in the fifties, sixties and seventies would need to talk about coming out, and there'd be a lot of a lot of discussion about that in both places. So there were things like the gay liberation groups in in New Zealand. Were you aware of, [00:08:30] um, earlier attempts at at things like, um, homosexual law reform in New Zealand? Sure. And I guess even before I got away, um, when I was at university in the in the late sixties, Um, uh, I guess that I knew about the homosexual law Reform Society. Um, I wouldn't have known the details. Uh, but I'd heard of it. And, um, in the early seventies, uh, when I was back [00:09:00] here briefly, had a cleaning job. Um, you know, III, I could see notices up around the university for homosexual law, reform society, things and I. I wasn't gay then, but I was a bit interested because I believed in freedom. Um, and, uh, yeah, it was clear to any anyone, I suppose it was just part of the way [00:09:30] I was brought up. That you unnecessary laws to stop freedom were bad thing. Um, you know, not just a part of my communism, but just part of the way IIII I was brought up. Um, and and I think that there was a a liberal kind of, particularly in Wellington, perhaps, um, [00:10:00] group of people who, uh, professional group who Who believed that this was a silly law, Uh, that I would have identified with. And perhaps perhaps the fact that I was hiding from my own gayness was part of that identification. But perhaps it wasn't. Perhaps it would have, you know, it would have been. You know, I'm sure my parents would have had [00:10:30] the same view. And I'm aware, I think in 74 there was the then young, um, crimes Amendment bill, which was, I think, the first time that parliament had had looked at, um, law reform. I wasn't aware of that at the time I was overseas, but yeah, that was, uh, the first attempt that got very far. Um, then, [00:11:00] um, the Freer bill a few years later, uh, that and and then they they fell over for a variety of reasons, One of which was the, um, attempt to have an age of consent, which was unequal. Um, that the gay community quite rightly saw, would be, uh, dangerous [00:11:30] in entrenching a a discrimination that might be hard to to correct. So for you coming back in the early 19 eighties? What was it like coming into the groups that had obviously been kind of well established over a number of years or decades? I, I guess at first you don't come back intending to [00:12:00] particularly be political. I mean, I was a political creature, but, um, I didn't see the focus of my politics being around my gayness particularly. I saw gayness as Gayner. And I was going to be gay, and I'd be political about other things, But, um, clearly there was an opportunity to change the law. Um, that became very [00:12:30] clear. Quite well. No, not I mean you. You support anything that came along And I I made friends quite early on with a guy called Kevin Green who had been secretary of, um, the, uh uh, the National Gay Rights Coalition. Uh, which was an umbrella organisation, a national organisation that had had a lot to do with, [00:13:00] um, the free bill. He he was a a really bright, interesting guy, a nice guy. And, um, he tried to get me involved and managed to it, but, uh, and taught me a lot about the personalities and I got instead involved [00:13:30] in gay switchboard much more and made good friends also, with a lot of people coming out at the same time as me, who are a bit younger than me, many of whom were also involved in the gate switch board and also started the This Bookshop, which was [00:14:00] sort of community centre and then leading up to the 1984 election. I think it was John Mcdavitt came into the bookshop one day, and John Mcdavitt came from a Labour Party family. And he said that Fran Wilde had approached him. He was a gay guy, [00:14:30] and she wanted to talk to people from the gay community because she thought that she could be helpful to the gay community, Uh, in terms of law reform, and she wanted to talk to them before the election. And would I help facilitate a meeting and place it on? Yeah. And so [00:15:00] we had a meeting in the Gay Community Centre, which was in a building which is now demolished the basement of a building in street sort of where the majestic tower is now horrible and, um, big meeting with a lot of gay men and lesbians and Fran said she wouldn't promise anything. But if she got in, she'd [00:15:30] do everything she could to facilitate change in the law, both in respect of human rights and decriminalisation of gay male homosexual activity. And I think she probably got some votes out of that. But after the election, I thought, Well, we probably [00:16:00] should follow up on that. And, um So I got hold of John Mcdavitt and and Fran and said, I think we should have another meeting, shouldn't we? And we got more or less the same crowd along for for us, another meeting. There was a long debate at that meeting about because she said yes, she would try and do what she could and so on. And the question [00:16:30] then was, what were our priorities? What would we go for? Would we go for a criminal law change? Or would we go for the human rights change and the lesbians? And some of them came in, uh, the more politically correct came in, wanted just to go for the human rights law change, which is what went through first in [00:17:00] New South Wales. So you had human rights equality before you had decriminalisation and many of the gay men said, Well, it's all very well for you, but we're criminals and we want that dealt with first. And I listened to this back and forth for quite a long time and made the obvious [00:17:30] comment that we should go for both, um, and that of course we should get both, but we would have lost nothing if we got only one. And of course, that's how it played out. We in fact, got only the criminal law change, but it we didn't lose anything [00:18:00] by going for both at all. It it played out like a compromise, and we got the second, the the the human rights part a few years later. I think four years later, if I remember rightly so. I'm just trying to understand what the thinking was in terms of only the the the the group of people that only wanted the equality or or [00:18:30] discrimination legislation. Well, firstly, all the lesbians said there's nothing in it for us. The criminal law change men always get everything that we don't. Why would we fight for a a criminal law change which only privileges only helps men? So why? Why would we fight [00:19:00] that? Why would we fight for that? And I can see that their argument And, um, some of the men said, Well, look at the way it's played out in, in in, um, New South Wales. And look at the reality. No one's actually prosecuted under this criminal law, so it's not very serious. But of course, [00:19:30] the truth is that it was a threat, always right. It became a you know, something that that was a worry for people. And were people prosecuted? Not not, uh, in the last few years, Um, they had been, say, four years before, But it was There were all sorts of things which happened, which were which [00:20:00] felt like they were related to the prosecution thing. So people were prosecuted for sex in the bogs. The saunas were raided. Now, these weren't actually on the basis of the Crimes Act offence, but they felt like it. Um, [00:20:30] and they the Crimes Act defence gave, um, strength to the capacity to, uh to prosecute. And the truth is that the the change in the law was not the point as it happened, Uh, it was the huge public debate [00:21:00] which was the important thing. Uh, the the change in the law was symbolic. Um, and probably only a change in the criminal law could have done. It would would. It was only a change in the criminal law that could have been a sufficient symbol to to have a fight around. But I don't know that you know what? What would in fact, [00:21:30] have polarised and what you needed was a polarisation, and we got it. Do you know what was the impetus for Fran Wild to come in and have that first meeting with you guys? Yeah, Firstly, I think she believed in the reform. I think that I said before that, um, there [00:22:00] are in Wellington around the country, actually, but I think it's a It's a bigger group in Wellington, a professional cast of liberal people who believe in freedom, you know, and I think she's from that group. I think she doesn't believe in laws which oppress people. She also [00:22:30] was trying to win the most liberal seat in the country. You know, Wellington Central is liberal, and I'm not saying that, uh, it was automatic that having this view would lead to her winning if it was automatic, she wouldn't have needed to to whip up support for it. But she knew that if she whipped up support, there was a chance of, you know, getting [00:23:00] something going that would get there. And it's not a coincidence that it was the Wellington newspaper, the Dominion, that also was the newspaper that more than any other supported this bill. I know you read the Dominion, and you get a hell of a lot of support much so more than any other in the country. And you get sort of human interest stories right through that. 16 [00:23:30] months of campaign about gay people and their lives and so on. No, I'm not saying that happened automatically. We did a lot of work on it, but, um, they he he I'm sure they tried to do the work in Auckland. Well, they might not have done it quite as well, but, um, I think we were pretty good, but, um, you know, they they did try and, um, [00:24:00] we we we we we got a we we we we we managed to get it in to the to a newspaper which wanted to carry the stuff because they sold their paper and it sold their paper because it had a constituency here. I'm really interested in the impact of overseas events on the gay liberation movements in New Zealand. I've heard a number of different kind of, um takes on the idea, especially like [00:24:30] with Stonewall. How stonewall was such a significant event. It led to a lot of what was happening in New Zealand. But then I've also heard other people say that actually, um, we put too much emphasis on things like Stonewall in New Zealand that gay liberation was going to happen Anyway. Do you have any thoughts on things like that? Oh, oh, I think that we are very much a part of the world. Um, [00:25:00] I think that gay marriage is something which has spread around the world like wildfire. And it is not a coincidence that gay marriage has cropped up in New Zealand and and Ireland, of all places, a few years apart. You know, there are in I'm not saying it's stonewall caused gay liberation in New [00:25:30] Zealand. I think that there are independent of factors which affected both um and they they might be most complex. Um, what is it which requires gay sexuality to be repressed. So that second meeting, um, with with Fran after [00:26:00] the election after the 1984 election, how did you go about kind of planning the campaign? What? How How how did that all happen? I think different people will have different takes on that. Um, Fran will probably say that it was very well planned. Um, and different people will say different, different things about [00:26:30] planning. Fran certainly was talking to people in different places and she knew that money would be necessary. And there wasn't no money in Wellington. Um, and you go to Auckland if you want money. My take on it was that we we needed that that it was very, very close, that we had a chance that it [00:27:00] was gonna take a long time. It was gonna be a big battle that the Labour Party was an unreliable ally, that we didn't have the labour Party yet that the core need in parliament was the Labour Party women who were the most likely to whip the men into line and [00:27:30] the Labour Party women outside parliament were our most crucial strategic objective and that to get the Labour Party women in line. We had to solidify an alliance with the lesbians, which was not going to be easy because they had their own agenda and weren't necessarily going to be easy. [00:28:00] And a lot of men didn't respect them or like them. And we're downright misogynist. And there'd been a long history of bitterness between lesbians and gay men in all sorts of organisations. The best lesbians [00:28:30] were in some ways the most difficult. They were politically canny, they were almost separatists. Um, but they knew that all homophobia would also hurt lesbians and that actually the law again, that criminalised gay men [00:29:00] damaged the interests of lesbians, too. And so although they wanted to get the highest possible profile for women throughout the campaign, they knew that even if and when the human rights part of the legislation was defeated, they stood solid and supported the campaign. But there was There was some tense [00:29:30] moments there. So we're using, um, quite a bit of baggage from the people involved in these first couple of meetings from previous attempts at law reform, probably. I mean, there there are many different strands in different generations, but a lot of the men were new to politics. And I'm not saying there weren't a lot of people who [00:30:00] are old. But this was clearly an opportunity which was far more likely to get through than anything that had happened in the past. And also it involved grassroots organisation More than anything in the past, it wasn't something which was simply a creature of the politicians. [00:30:30] Uh, there were there was more mobilisation, uh, partly because the opponents of law reform mobilised with petitions and things, and our people mobilised against them. And so there was a felt ground swirl of organisation which, um, made people feel engaged and as it drew in [00:31:00] large numbers, So there was a sense of involvement. And these are people who had not been in a political process before in most cases, but it was people of different kinds. It was university students and and liberal types of people. And it was party boys and it was feminists, and it was housewives [00:31:30] mothers. It was it was a a huge range of of people. So you inevitably had things pulling in different directions, and sometimes, uh, I remember once people want demonstration and other people said no. A demonstration would scare the politicians in those big meeting to try and stop the demonstration. And [00:32:00] other people said, If you don't have demonstrations, we're pulling out of this entirely. And I remember trying to say, Look, we all need each other. We're going to have to compromise sometimes. And if we don't have demonstrations, some people are gonna throw away their toys. And And if we have, if we if we if we go over the top, other people are gonna so we're gonna have to we're gonna have to keep [00:32:30] respecting each other and making compromises and try to be nice to one another. And and people sort of got the point eventually. And it was sort of a matter of keeping this this thing sort of on an even keel and making compromises. And you had this incredible coalition which went through like the money came from rich, nasty, [00:33:00] misogynist old men and the political nous and the necessary alliance came from these militant feminist, almost separatist lesbians, and each needed the other. And I sometimes felt like I was in the middle. You you mentioned earlier on about, [00:33:30] um, the idea of actually having a a kind of a, um it was more about social changes. It was about having that discussion. And I'm wondering right from those early discussions, Uh, was it seen as a this as a political campaign or more, a kind of public social change campaign? I wonder if there's ever really a difference between those two things. I think that politics is ultimately about consciousness, [00:34:00] about social consciousness, and I just think that this one did it at a pretty deep level where so often it doesn't. We understood increasingly that we had to change people's minds and what really changed the way [00:34:30] New Zealanders live and the lives of gay and lesbian people much more than the law was the massive coming out that happened during that period. At the beginning of this time, you know, a very large proportion of the population would say, I don't know anyone who's gay [00:35:00] and at the end of it, most people would say, Oh, I've got a cousin who's gay He's OK and there wouldn't be many people who didn't know they had a relation as gay by the end of it, and that was an enormous change for the reality of of us a war, I think, uh, the law change can't be, [00:35:30] um, you know, it's important, but II I think that that massive coming out was was the more important thing. But it was expensive, you know. Each of those coming out was a a AAA traumatic process for someone. And it went on [00:36:00] for tens of thousands of people around the country. Were there significant numbers who didn't want to come out to be visible, and some didn't. And I think the suicide rate went up during this period. I know that I sometimes felt a bit torn or very torn by the whole process. So how was the debate framed [00:36:30] by by both sides? There was an attempt, of course, to use religion. But New Zealand is quite a secular country, and I mean, it's pretty difficult to pin homosexuality to it. I'm not saying it isn't Dan, but it isn't easily done. The Salvation Army stepped in early on. I remember going [00:37:00] down to argue with them. Yeah, uh, and they tried to mobilise the whole organisation against it, but I think we had a fairly successful although we didn't realise it at the time intervention into the Salvation Army. Um, Professor Rob had done a lot of training with them. Um, and [00:37:30] three or four of us went down and talked to them. And I believe that subsequently they had to arrange two morning tea rooms, one for the pros and one for the ante. Um, which, um, they just they couldn't keep a coherent organisation. Um, not that I've forgiven them. Uh, and I don't think many gay people have, because [00:38:00] it did us a lot of damage, what they did because they they they did collect signatures, and they gave a respectability, which was undeserved to, um, to the campaign against the bill. Then there was an attempt to use AIDS as, um, an argument against the bill, which is extraordinarily short sighted. In a way, [00:38:30] if you're going to stop aid, you've got to make it easy for people to talk about their risk factors without making them feel at danger of prosecution. And so you don't want to have a law that might get them into trouble for, um, putting [00:39:00] themselves at risk. You wanted them to be able to talk openly about risk factors. So, um, I guess those are the two main arguments that we used and then just it's unnatural. Just very, very simplistic stuff there. There wasn't anything very sophisticated in the in the argumentation against the bill. And the [00:39:30] argument for is simply we're here, you know? We're gay, and you gotta give us room. You gotta allow us to be. It's a waste. It causes great misery. It causes suicide. It causes miserable marriages. [00:40:00] It causes great suffering to make this illegal. Can you perhaps also speak about the international forces that were at work? For instance, um, the Reverend Lou Sheldon was brought out to New Zealand. Um, on the kind of anti reform side of things. Can you talk a wee bit about that? Yeah. I mean, I don't know that it did as much harm, [00:40:30] um, because New Zealanders don't really like that obvious, Um, use of, of, of kind of, of international influence like that. I mean, a certain amount of restraint, um, expertise is one thing, but this there wasn't anything particularly expert about these. These people, they were just mouthing off [00:41:00] rhetoric, uh, and religious prejudice. And so, II, I actually think that it was interesting that these people were sponsoring the the right wing the, um, the prejudice. But I don't think it did as much harm. And then there were several, and they used American sources in different ways. [00:41:30] And there were there were some local prejudice, too. I'm trying to remember the names of some, uh, church groups that were really possibly funded from overseas, but really very, very nasty stuff of the same kind that, um, falsified information about sexual practises, statistics, [00:42:00] uh, often from these American sources. And, uh, nasty, nasty stuff. But I, I really don't think it did us harm. It was the more the, um the people like, um ha. What was his name? I can't remember their name. Keith Hay And, um the, um the [00:42:30] number of these people who are the local ones who were part of the New Zealand furniture that seemed real in New Zealand terms that did us more harm. Well, and certainly in terms of the politicians, some of the names that kind of jump out to me are the you know, your Jeff Bray Brooks and your Graham Lees and your Norman Jones. Um, do you have any? Do you have any thoughts about those, Well, I I someone thought [00:43:00] that I should go and try and talk to Graham Lee early on someone, someone who knew him. I went and talked to Graham Lee, which was very funny, really and completely useless. And then Peter Sumner thought I should go and talk to Jeff Bray Brook because Jeff Bray Brook had been one of Peter's soldiers. And I went along and talked to Jeff Bray Brook, which was also absolutely [00:43:30] useless as we had a signature of Jeff Bray Brook supporting law reform for a few years earlier. It was quite good fun, but, um, interestingly, near the end, I happened to be on a small aeroplane between Auckland and Napier, sitting next to Jeff Bray Brook, and he said, Oh, you won. He was very sporty about it. [00:44:00] I was actually going to my Ex-wife's father's funeral, and I arrived in Napier and gave my ex-wife a hug, and you could see this puzzled look going across Jeff's face. You couldn't understand how I could be hugging a woman. It was really what were those, um, kind of anti politicians, [00:44:30] um, or anti reform politicians. I mean, what were they like in person, on a 1 to 1 level. With that, I mean, why varied? I mean, Jeff Bray Brook was just a politician. Um, what's his name? The mouth from the South. Oh, Norman Jones. Norman Jones. Bye. Probably was fun. Um, I think he's probably except [00:45:00] for the fact that he's a reactionary bastard and an opportunist. He he had a sense of humour and so on. I. I debated him once. He he he refused to debate me in New Zealand. Um, because he didn't want to give me any publicity. He said, Um, but he agreed to debate me for some Australian show. [00:45:30] Odd condition. It was never played in New Zealand, and so this was recorded at some hotel, and and, uh, I said he was obsessed by sodomy. He said, Oh, it's a magnificent obsession. Were there any, um, out politicians at the time? No. None at all. Um, [00:46:00] can I tell that story or not? No. Um, it's There are one or two stories you might be told at another stage. You've mentioned debating with Norman Jones, and I seem to recall there was an incident in Was it the lower hut meeting Where? Where you were, um, allowed eventually allowed to speak. That was fun. Yeah, that [00:46:30] was That was right, Right early on. Um, in the whole, in in in the Knox church hall. I was very nervous. These people were saying really nasty things, and we had a lot of people there and people getting really angry. And Norman Jones said, [00:47:00] If you go, if you want to talk, you know, you gotta pay for it. We paid for this war. You shut up. And then he said he was silly enough to say, you know, we paid so and so for this If you want to speak, you got to pay half. And she mentioned a figure, and I said, Done. I said, I. I didn't think about it at all. And then he said, What are you gonna pay now? I said, Oh, yeah. OK, [00:47:30] come on. Give us some money, guys. And it was a wonderful theatre, you see? So I threw my coat on the floor and people put money on it immediately, you know? And, uh, we collected, I don't know, 100 and $50 or something like that. Just like that. And uh, it was counted out on the stage, and Alison and I both got to speak, and, uh, yeah, it was good fun, and it sort of made them look so very silly. [00:48:00] And, um, we got our our point across nicely. And was it hard to to mobilise, um um Rainbow people to actually go to those anti meetings? On the contrary, I mean, I couldn't have stopped them. Um, it it it it it didn't require mobilisation. It just happened. Um, I at that stage, I think probably I. I was a bit worried [00:48:30] about what people would do, and I I was in two minds as to whether it was a good idea. Um, but I think it was, and it very quickly turned out that it was it it it made the the thing into the public debate. It needed to be, uh and it was psychologically important in that it allowed us to feel that we were participating in the in the debate. But I think [00:49:00] it was also politically important and that it, uh, showed us as not something to be trodden on. And I think that that I think that one element of the situation was that the the there was a traditional way of looking at gays as victims, and the breaking [00:49:30] of that picture was part of the of the politics that we needed. We had to transcend the victim mode and show ourselves as strong political actors. And that was part of what was going on in those things from the photos I've seen that that they actually look quite large crowds that were attending these these meetings. I mean, the the [00:50:00] Knox Church Hall was very full, and I think people standing at the sides, too. Um and it's not a small hall, you know, some hundreds of people there. Along with the anti gay meetings. There are also things like the the bigger busters rally, and, um, some of the pro marches and and events. Can you tell me about some of those? Well, I've had several. The rallies were good fun. [00:50:30] Um, and they were cheerful, fun events usually balloons, uh, and, um, usually pretty diverse crowds, Uh, usually some trade union presence, Uh, usually not just gay, but quite dominated by gay people. Uh, and similarly with the the bigger busters meeting [00:51:00] and and there was also some national conferences and things. Uh, yeah, they were good. Good fun. I mean, and and not obviously as serious or as scary as the Salvation Army Sunday Service, which we went to every week. And so was that a conscious decision in terms of the campaign to to make things look, you know, not [00:51:30] necessarily Take it seriously, make it lighthearted. Make it fun. Well, yeah, I think so. Um, there was plenty of serious debate, and we we went to a hell of a lot of rotary meetings and JC meetings, and, you know, all that kind of thing where you talk seriously and so on. Um, [00:52:00] and there would be constant pieces in the newspaper and interviews and opinion pieces in the paper and and and so on. So it's not as though there wasn't a hell of a lot of serious debate, but we were pretty conscious of the fact that we were trying to hold together a mass movement, um, which can't be sustained [00:52:30] on pure seriousness, you know, And in other words, singers. And, you know, all sorts of fun stuff, Uh, as much as we could. It'd be good to just touch on some of the organisations, Um, that that kind of made up that kind of mass movement. Um, Robin Duman interview said to me that the National Gay Rights Coalition grew into a membership of around 65,000 people. I mean, that's a huge [00:53:00] That's a huge amount of people. Yeah, I mean, I, I don't know what he would count there, but I would think, for example, that, um trade unions would have joined and and and and so on, and some of that membership would be pretty token. But that's not to be discounted, because when a trade union gives a a a formal [00:53:30] membership of something like that, their their membership feels it means something. Um, and it does, you know, it counts for something. So in Wellington, what were some of the groups that were involved in in the gay rights coalition? Well, it was informal. Um, but in in 1985 86 the [00:54:00] core organisation was the Wellington Gay Task Force, which met every week. The National Gay Rights Coalition had more or less dissipated by 1983. I suspect, um, start to develop in 1985. The campaign for homosexual equality had been going for some time but had [00:54:30] a sort of re emergence. In 84 85 the Gay Liberation Front had sort of faded out by 81. I think, um, I don't know anything about the homosexual electoral and legislative lobby. I think that was a special one from Robin Duff, Um, with an acronym of Hell. The gay switchboard, of course, wasn't theoretically political, but made [00:55:00] sure things happen. Um, and it organised the meetings, got people there, made sure they were meeting rooms. Um and, um, yeah, I think that it was responsible for much more than any of them in some ways. And And was the New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society still going at that time? And that, um, [00:55:30] was quite important early on, but sort of faded out. Um, but it still met right through. And so we're kind of members of the communities across a number of organisations, or were they quite distinct groups of people? I think there was a lot of crossover with the gay task force and that I mean, a number of the lesbians belong [00:56:00] to one or two lesbian groups and the gay task force I belonged to, uh, the Gay Task Force and the Homosexual Law Reform Society. Although, you know, I would have seen the gay task force as my primary home. Um, some people would have gone to quite a lot of people had gone to both [00:56:30] and gay task force. Other people would go to both gay task force and homosexual Law Reform Society. So what was the difference? Say between, say, the gay Task Force and the Campaign for Homosexual Equality campaign for homosexuality. Equality was more narrowly focused and more left wing. And the thing about the gay task force was that it was open to everyone. Anyone, any gay person who wanted [00:57:00] to could come along. And you didn't have to believe anything had an agenda. Um was not entirely clear what it was, but it it was left wing, uh, was gay. Task force was really I mean, it was roughly in in support of the bill, but, um, even what that was exactly was was unclear. [00:57:30] And so something like the gay task force was that kind of responsible for a lot of the the events and the actions. And we regard ourselves as the Central organisation for it. I mean, we wouldn't have pushed that down anyone's throat, but we were regarded as that. You know, we we regard ourselves as the decision makers who could speak on behalf of the Wellington community on things to do with the bill where if there [00:58:00] was to be a a dispute that had to be decided on whether there was to be a demonstration or not. We regard ourselves as competent to make that decision, and we're regarded that way by other people. Um, it was to ask the press would come for authoritative comment on things to do with the bill. And you actually appeared quite a lot in the press. And I'm wondering, how did how did you feel about being the spokesperson? [00:58:30] I don't know. It sort of happened. Um, I guess that there wasn't much option at first. I mean, there weren't it. It was sort of for most people, you couldn't be because you'd lose your job or you might not get a job or something. And I had sort of felt I was already unemployable, so it didn't matter. Um, so II I kind [00:59:00] of had a bit of a philosophical attitude towards it. There were one or two other people who did it, but David Hindley did a lot of writing my press statements. Um, then he would have been good, but he had jobs that wouldn't kind of allow it. Really? So how often did the gay Task Force meet? Once a week, mostly in the Dorian Society. We stunk of alcohol [00:59:30] and beer and had a gooey carpet, and we haven't actually mentioned. So there's the Dorian Society and the Victoria Club, both social clubs who gave a lot of money to the campaign. Money was really important and we got money. I. I didn't have anything to do with getting the money. And James Slot ran the money and he was wonderful. He he was the treasurer of the gay task force and he he talked to the treasurers [01:00:00] of the these organisations and he had a little fundraising group and they would go to rich gay people and ask for money and and that money would that be used for the, um, the wider social campaign rather than the political be used for anything that was needed for but a lot of photocopying, um of and a lot of you know, of of information about rebuttal rebutting propaganda and [01:00:30] stuff for journalists and answers to, um, the scandals and, um uh, propaganda and bullshit. Um, and we had this, um we had an office, uh, in the in the community centre, staffed by volunteers. You and painter was volunteering there for a long time ago, called, um, Graham. Russell [01:01:00] did much more volunteering, and he he was amazing. He was our secretary, really? And and organiser for months and months and months, Possibly more, Possibly over a year. A young guy did a huge job, you know, acted as a secretary telephonist photocopier, and he talk cheap photocopying out of people and, uh, talk to journalists. [01:01:30] And, you know, was it hard to keep people motivated over that 16 month period? No, I mean, people came and get went, but, um, there was this this campaign and an objective, and, um, you know, it was it was exciting. There was a There was a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, and it was never very certain what the outcome would be. [01:02:00] Well, especially when you see things like the, um, the petition against law reform being presented to Parliament. Um, they have a quite a number of signatures. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, we the one of the things we did, of course, was was analyse that and work out that it wasn't quite as impressive as it looked on for it. So, uh, but, uh, the presentation of that of that petition was AAA really amazing [01:02:30] event. It was something I will never forget because, um, flags and these banners. I can't remember what it said, but it was so kind of Nuremberg. It was It was really weird. And, uh, these boxes of we started these charts. The boxes are empty, the boxes are empty. And it turned out they [01:03:00] were really We didn't know it at the time, but they just these little, little piles of paper at the bottle of them. Um, because it was the idea. So So this was, um, on parliament steps. Was the idea that there would be a box for each electorate. And so where were you out there in front of parliament, Um, amongst the the anti crowd. Well, we had our crowd, too. I mean, both crowds there, you see, um, [01:03:30] and the cops trying to keep us separate. People were sort of There's some really wonderful the story I forget to tell. But when I first got involved, Philip Healy was a hairdresser and he rang me up and said, Bill, thank you very much for going on television, but never, never again go [01:04:00] on television without first coming getting your hair done. Yeah, so I thought it was sweet. What were some of the other, um, main players on the gay task force? Well, Alison Laurie was really very, very key to it. Um, [01:04:30] there was Brett Raley, who worked closely with the homosexual with Homosexual Law Reform Society with Linda Evans. Uh, there's Tiggy Instone, otherwise known as Cynthia Bag Wash. Who, um, in that persona would infiltrate, [01:05:00] um, anti meetings and cause trouble. And, um, Phil Parkinson, of course. Uh, who was our information person? Pauline Simmons. You and painter for a long time, Des Smith, [01:05:30] And didn't Des form was a hug. Heterosexuals are afraid of gays, so if he didn't form it, he was certainly very much a part of it. And so why Why was that important? Why were why? Why was it kind of allies type thing important. Well, I mean, allies were always going to be important. Um, and he he It was later on that he identified as gay. Um, [01:06:00] I think that there was a time which some of us kind of had the feeling we didn't want allies, which would have been a bit bit silly, but, um, no, we needed our lives. I'm not sure there are lots of different ways we might have had allies, and but heterosexuals, unafraid of gays, was a useful and national thing. And it didn't happen only in Wellington. [01:06:30] But there were also lots of unions, uh, lots of religious groups. I think I made in two categories, but many other types of organisations and support from, uh, some rotary chapters and JC chapters and things like that. So there are a variety of different groups supported [01:07:00] us, and we got support where we could I think it was really important to try to get that kind of support. And that was part of trying to show politicians that there was support out there that was beyond the gay community. Kind of reflecting back you. It's very easy to kind of, you know, chart the progress of the bill through the House and the societal change. [01:07:30] But I'm wondering, you know, were there points in the campaign where you thought, um, this is out of control? You know, you don't know where it's going. You don't know what's going to happen? Or did you always kind of feel that there's there's forward momentum, that it is going to happen? I never felt sure that it would happen. I thought from the beginning, we've got a real chance [01:08:00] that it's worth a fight and I never lost that that conviction. But even on the last day, although I was optimistic and I thought we had the numbers, I was very nervous. My reading of the passage through Parliament was that there were kind of two sticking points. One was the age [01:08:30] of consent, and the other was the, um, discrimination anti discrimination measures. Is that what were they, the two main things that Yeah, well, the anti discrimination measures went first, of course, and it was clear to me fairly early on that they were going to go and there was nothing to be done about it. And that was a sacrifice which had to be made, but [01:09:00] that we would pro that we should make a fight for it because the bigger and better the fight, the sooner we would win them in the long run and that we would win them in the long run. Yes, we did. The age of consent. We didn't really know till very near the end, what would happen over it. And there are all sorts of [01:09:30] weird amendments that were, um, raids, including one that the age of consent should be 16 except for anal sex and the age of consent for anal sex. But it should be 20. But for other kinds of sex should be 16. I remember writing a leaflet called on [01:10:00] the Equality of Orifices. In the end, that amendment didn't fly. Thank goodness that was a labour party. But, uh, it would be very difficult if they'd done a funny age. You can see, Was there any change in the, um, kind of lesbian involvement once, you know, part of the bill had [01:10:30] not No, they were. They they stood by us. I've heard some of the parliamentary debates, um, from homosexual law reform, and some of it is just absolutely vile. And I'm wondering, did any of that kind of viol either, you know, in the parliamentary debates or even at public meetings? I mean, did any of that kind of seep in and and get to you? Not me, but it did some people. But I remember the [01:11:00] different times we were a bit used to violence. And when I say didn't get to us, we we were used to screaming with rage. And we did. I suppose, another reaction to that that some of that violence is things like the, um uh, gay and lesbian fear being established in 1996. I think so. That whole visibility, the whole positive [01:11:30] attitude. Um, can you talk about about the the fear and some of the other things, like II? I also note the, um uh, the gay task force had a store at the trade fair. Well, and and and in a way, the the things like the the things we were talking about before about balloons on demonstrations and the lightheartedness and so on is a way of reacting to the violence of of of, you know, we're not [01:12:00] going to to we we don't want to give them an excuse. We don't wanna We we're gonna If necessary, we'll answer their vileness. But it's not our mode. It's not our preferred way of addressing life. Um, we we want to do things right and have fun and make the world a better place and a more fun place. And so the [01:12:30] gay and lesbian fair and the stall at the in the show and the balloons and so on. We're all a part of that you mentioned right at the very start about having the bookshop capital books and and, um, that also had involvement with the law reform. Tell me, Tell me about that. Well, I mean, I closed capital books not long after the campaign began, because it was never a very profitable enterprise. [01:13:00] Um, but it did play a role early on, and, um, yeah, there's not much more to be said. It was a gathering point. And, um, it, uh, we sold some gay books and magazines, and people came in and out, and yeah, we've also briefly mentioned David Hiley who, um, has who took some, um, amazing [01:13:30] photographs around the time of homosexual law reform. And I'm wondering if you could maybe, um, comment on on the importance of kind of documenting, um, the reform. Well, of course, at the time, I wasn't noticing him taking photographs. Um, I was noticing him as a public relations advisor [01:14:00] and assistant, and actually, more than that. Manager, um, in a way, he managed me, Um, but, you know, looking back on it. And I think he was very aware of it as he was doing it. He knew that he was documenting history being made. And, um, it's It's a superb record, isn't it? [01:14:30] Uh, that, um, was very nice to have because yeah, we couldn't, um, you couldn't. You couldn't live that in the same relive that in the same way without such a record. So the third reading of the homosexual law Reform passed on the ninth of July 1986. 41. 49 votes to 44. [01:15:00] Where were you? I was in parliament, um, sitting directly looking at the speaker. And could you tell before he said it? Um, I could I got a I. I re Mallard had the numbers, and I looked at her and he ordered. And what did it feel like? Very very good. Very good indeed. [01:15:30] I was with Jerome and I kissed him. What do you think changed for gay people? I guess. I guess it's a matter of standing a bit taller. It's very difficult to to make it concrete because it isn't very concrete. It's not as if [01:16:00] you get a get anything that's very tangible. Although there are lots of tangibles, you you do get the possibility of being open about your life. And, um, you know, you can talk about all sorts of tangible things. Um, I suspect I suspect that gay [01:16:30] people live longer. Actually, I suspect they, uh, have much less anxiety. I suspect that, um, they are much more open about their lives with their families and friends and at work. So I think there probably are all sorts of tangibles, but it's it's it's some Some something that's less tangible is perhaps [01:17:00] as important as just a a AAA sense of being more themselves. How do you think it's changed you mhm. I don't know. I mean it. It's certainly been a a pretty fantastic experience, I I. It's not something that I would [01:17:30] have missed for the world. You know, it's nice to win a battle. The sort of person I am. You don't win many. Um, let's face it. The world was going to change any way one way or another, it wasn't gonna change automatically. But it these things, someone else at some different time [01:18:00] other than Fran other than the gay task force, there would have been some other framework of change. Um, but the idea of criminalising gay male homosexuality forever is sort of unthinkable, Really, I suppose it could have been delayed 10 or 15 years, but it could have been [01:18:30] It could have happened in a a, a kind of more subterranean or bureaucratic fashion that could have led to a less radical change in the culture so that it could have left more remnants of homophobia in the culture. And so we could have a more conservative society [01:19:00] than we have now if it had unfolded in a different way. And I think we can take some credit for the depth of the change and so I, I think that I think that I think that all our lives are better for having been able to take a bit of control of the way in which it happened and [01:19:30] to have made sure that it did happen in a in a deep cultural way. And I benefit from that enormously just in the fact that you know, I don't mind that the neighbours know that I'm gay and the shop keeper knows that I'm gay and my clients probably know I'm gay and they might or might not, and I don't care. [01:20:00] You know it it it's just my life is a lot easier for for that, um, And then there's a personal benefit that I get from having personally been involved. It's in such an intimate way, and, uh, a pretty important historical kind of thing. There was a lot of a lot of fun in that, and a lot of [01:20:30] a lot of, uh, you know, Yeah, a lot of gratification and and and and thinking, you know, I had a bit to do with this. It's nice, you know? I like that. Hm.

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TITLE: Benji Watt - boxing
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VOICES: Benji Watt
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Benji Watt; BoxRec; David Tua; Joseph Parker; MtF; New Zealand Professional Boxing Association; Pat Leonard; Shane Cameron; Wellington; Women's International Boxing Association; boxing; civil unions; community; concussion; facebook. com; gay; health; health insurance; homophobia; homophobic bullying; labels; marriage; marriage equality; masculinity; media; persona; sexuality; social media; sport; surgery; testosterone (T); transgender; twitter. com; youtube. com
DATE: 9 May 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Benji talks about being the first openly gay boxing judge in New Zealand and his upcoming marriage.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Benji or Benjamin Watt. Um, I'm 22 years old, turning 23 in June. Also getting married in June as well. Um, I am a boxing judge, the youngest one in the world and the first gay one in New Zealand. I'm also the, um I'm also the second person to be, uh, the box R dot com editor for box. Uh uh, for New Zealand. And I'm at the moment, I'm the only [00:00:30] one for New Zealand, so Yeah. So what drew you to boxing? Um, I've always liked box boxing. I just never really spoke about it because it was more of a like a personal interest. And, Well, every time I mention boxing, people think it's like, Oh, it's aggressive and very masculine and stuff like that. And, like, a lot of the gay community are, like, quite shunned upon stuff like that. Like against sports and stuff like that. Apart from like the beer community, they're very into it. And, like, [00:01:00] um, I got really hooked into it When, um, that first, Not the first time when I first watched my first boxing fight with David to Lewis. Ever since then, like It was kind of like I was an interest, but it wasn't like a passion. And when I saw Shane Cameron versus David tour, that's when I got hooked. And ever since then, um, I've been, um, quite passionate about it and like seeing all the shows and pay per views and stuff like that. [00:01:30] So what? What hooked you? I don't know. It's just like one of those things that just created a spark out of nowhere and just like no pun intended slap you in the face. It was like, Wow, I don't know, like, this is really good And like going to these events is like, quite thrilling and like, you get very excited quite easily and stuff like that. So yeah, and so are you boxing yourself? No, no, no, no, I can't. I can't box I. I I've I've played [00:02:00] with the idea in my head about it, but I just thought to myself like No, like last year, I had, like, two concussions from, like falling off the deck at my house and and like being in cars and and that probably that put me off for eight months last year. So and if I had any more concussions, I'd probably be get brain damage. So this the idea of me boxing in the ring is not I played with the idea, but not anymore. And you were saying that, um, boxing and the kind [00:02:30] of gay community aren't necessarily seen as kind of closely aligned or the gay community kind of shun it in some way. How is it actually within the boxing community towards, um, say Rainbow people? Well, um, boxing is a very male orientated, masculine, lots of testosterone type sport. You don't really The idea of it is just like they don't clash with each other. They don't cross paths. But, um, every single boxing person that I've met [00:03:00] and who know that I'm gay, we're like, Yeah, don't care. I do a good job. That's what it counts. So they don't really have a problem with it. And which is good, because, like in 2015, everyone's quite open minded and stuff like that. I mean, like, there's the There's the occasional like tweet tweet because I'm on Twitter a lot, and I kind of have to be with, um, my position. Um, I'm on Twitter, a lot getting in contact with other boxes and stuff like that. And there's the occasional fans that get quite rowdy. [00:03:30] You could say, But um, apart from that, there's not not really much of a problem. So, like in other sports at the moment, so like in cricket, where there is kind of or in rugby league, where there's kind of sledging and kind of homophobic remarks either by players or fans, I mean, do you find that in in boxing? Um, not as far as I'm aware of. There's probably like there's probably, like, some talk, like in the ring or maybe at the press conference. But I don't think they actually mean it. Like majority of the boxes I I've met, [00:04:00] I've met personally so far. They were quite nice people. They're quite genuinely nice people. But, um, as soon as you put a camera in their face or something like that or microphone or whatnot, then the the theatrics come out and so is the um So is the, um being at the press conferences and stuff like that? So what they say they don't really mean they're just saying it and trying to create a reaction and stuff like that. OK, so it's kind of these larger than life persona type things. Yeah, like a classic [00:04:30] example is the brown butter bean. Um, he's he's, uh, he You see him like with a lot of videos on Facebook, YouTube and whatnot, And he he, um he's quite an asshole, but I've met him a couple of times, and he's like the nicest guy you could ever met. And like a lot of people hate him. Um, as well, so But, yeah, he's quite a nice guy. So So the idea of kind of, um, theatrics and persona, that's all a part of professional [00:05:00] boxing? Yeah, yeah, there's, there's, there's a lot of people say there. There's boxing is broke up into many sorts of ways. There's the boxing in the ring. There's the theatrics before and after, and there's the dodgy professional side, but but that I'm not really, um, involved with. So we're going to talk about a wee bit about how you came into judging. But I'm just wanting to follow that line of thought like when you're ringside and you are judging, What are you looking for? [00:05:30] And like I mean, if if If somebody throws a punch that you think, Oh, that's just that's dodgy. I mean, can you mark people down on that? Um, well, there's the what we're supposed to do. There's the three rules that we're supposed to abide by its aggression. So that could be from, like, this guy doing a punching flurry or always stepping forward and stuff like that. There's a defensive fighters that, um kind of like Floyd Mayweather, which a lot of people think. Oh, he's a runner and stuff like that. He's a counterpuncher. Counterpuncher always looks for those opportunities [00:06:00] and just keeps on moving his head all around. Um, and he can get marked up, get good marks for that. And then there's like, um uh, the amount of punches, output and stuff like that. Those those are like the General key three. Also like, there's a lot of other things that me, personally, I always go for my gut feeling if I don't know, because there there has been situations where I was like, Oh, crap, this is being really close round and I don't [00:06:30] I have a strong rule that I don't do 10 10 rounds, which is like the maximum a boxer per round can get. I don't mind 99 rounds when there's a point deducted or there's been double knocked down or something like that, but I don't I don't like 10, 10 rounds. It's my personal rule never to do that. So, um, I always go for a gut feeling. If I can't call it, then I feel this boxer has done probably just a slightly better than the other boxer or something like that. So, yeah, [00:07:00] that's how I kind of judge a boxing ring. Yeah. So how do you learn to judge? Um Well, how I go into it is, um, actually through box. And, um, as you know, the box is the what they call the Bible of boxing that has all each and every, um all the boxes details all the pro boxers details and, um, their rankings, the actually very fair rankings [00:07:30] as well. Um, and yeah, I'm the editor of that. I'm the New Zealand editor, which is was ridiculously hard to get in as become the editor. But I'm happy being the editor, and I get a lot of respect for that. And my name goes everywhere from it and I got my contacts through, um, box to, uh, have a chat with, uh, Pat Leonard. Who's the? I think he's the president. I'm not entirely sure, but, um, he's definitely the Auckland representative of the NZ. PB A. [00:08:00] And how they do things is they get you to do a shadow fight with Shadow Judge, which is you can come and watch an event for, um What, um, judge your own, like, do your little own score cards that will be unofficial. And he marks you off with, um, all the other judges and how he personally feels. And you have to do that three times. And if you do well, which is a lot of people don't, um, Then you become a judge. Uh, Pat looked and said that [00:08:30] I've got extraordinary talented calling, um, at making right calls, and he hasn't actually seen that with anyone before, especially with my age. So yeah, and so, yeah, um, as for like, learning, um, that's how the training goes and see if you can do well and then he'll probably have a one on one chat with you if you don't do well. But I really just, um I've been watching boxing since I was eight because that was the day of tour first Lex Lewis fight. I just [00:09:00] got hooked into it since then, and I learned from that, and I kind of, you know, picked it up a few things. So it was natural instinct. So kind of natural instinct and kind of gut reaction to what's happening in front of you. Yeah. Um, yeah, that that that's really how I got into it. But, um, the problem with, uh judges, like these days are ageing judges. Um, majority of them are 50 60 70 even 80 year olds. They're doing the judge. So [00:09:30] when you're looking at, um, potential new judges what? What? What are the skills that are needed to be a judge? Um, you need to be very focused and have a good eye. And like we've got, you have to be quite disciplined as well because like you go to these events and they're extraordinary events and stuff like that, you're not allowed to drink alcohol. It's like, Yeah, it's my big role. It's even the president's big rule. Don't drink, don't do any drugs. Obviously, um, while you're calling because that could [00:10:00] affect you. Like for for example, I watch the Mayweather First Pac hour fight. And I was, um it was my day off. I was watching, and I wasn't. I did my own little scoring, but I was having a good time while scoring and giving my opinion and stuff like that. After watching the fight, I thought, Oh, Pacquiao should have won. But then after the next day, I rewatched it and they like, Hm, Maybe it's a little bit of a draw. But there was such such a close fight, I just needed to watch it again. And, um, [00:10:30] Mayweather came up by one round. In my opinion, that idea of of watching something, um, a second time and getting a second chance to judge it. Have you, um, done judging where you thought that, you know, the next day? Oh, actually, I made the wrong decision. Never had that from a live event. Um, of course, Mayweather was through TV. So you can't. It's It's very different because from watching it live, you can see things that the cameras can't see. Uh, the cameras might go from different angles [00:11:00] to different angles, but it's nothing like what you can actually see right right there. And you can actually probably feel almost feel the punches of how hard they're doing by this, how loud it is and stuff like that. And that that is actually a big key to, um, judging as well, because, like, you need to feel it like, well, not feel it. But you need to actually feel the moment and stuff like that. So what is that, like being on ringside and and being in front of a fight? Well, there's been a couple of moments [00:11:30] where I wish I had an umbrella because, um, actually, um, I tell you about this event a couple of weeks ago, um, these two women were going really at it, and one of them had a like, a really blood nose. And there was every punch. There's like this blood went everywhere, and well, I just wish I had. It was all across my table, and I had my laptop with me for box, and I had to keep on making the Dodgers for my laptop, so I didn't have blood all over [00:12:00] it, so yeah, but, um, I love being at ringside as a big thrilling thing. Yeah. Have you ever been the target of, um, you know the audience reacting badly to a judgement? Not yet, but this is very confident for me to say this, but I've never made a bad judgement when I was at a live event, even when, um, from a split decision, I've only had one, split decision that went the other way. I still think that my call was the right call compared [00:12:30] to the other calls. However, that doesn't make their call less valid. It's just I feel Michael was the right one. Are boxers allowed to interact with the judges? Oh, yeah, But there's no bribes, obviously, but, um, everyone knows everyone. It's a very It's kind of like the gay community. In a way, everyone knows everyone, and, you know, it's weird by everyone like everyone has at least met everyone once, so yeah, So are there many gay people in boxing in New Zealand? [00:13:00] Not as far as I'm aware of. As far I haven't actually met one yet. As far as I'm aware of in the boxing community, I'm the first gay one. I could be wrong. I could be the first gay one at the current at this generation. But, um, as far as I'm aware of, I haven't met a gay boxer. Is that something you would like to see? More of more more gay people in boxing? No, I don't know. I really put a thought to it, but, um, it would be [00:13:30] quite interesting to having a gay boxer. It reminds me of this movie, actually, um, called the beautiful boxer, which is, uh, which is a transgender MTF, which is not actually boxing. It's actually I think it's moai or kickboxing. Oh, it's and, um, it's Thai boxing. Tai kick boxing, one of the 21 of the 34. And it was about a transgender MTF doing and had makeup on and everything. And great [00:14:00] movies. Yeah, but yeah, I never even thought about it. Are you aware of, um, boxing being held in, say, like, the out games or I mean, is it is it part of those kind of larger rainbow competitions? I would be, I don't know is is it the out games? I'm not sure it would be good to have that out games because, um, that way it's like if if the out games come back to New Zealand, Um, I could actually be a part of it because I've always wanted [00:14:30] to be a part of the out games. And, of course, the out game, Um, each and every, um, boxing from pro to corporate to amateur. They have to go through our sanctioning body. Well, one of the two sanctioning bodies, which I encourage the level of advertisement here. I encourage the out games committee if they ever come to back to New Zealand, use the NZ PB A as your sanctioning body for boxing. But, um, yeah, I would like to [00:15:00] be a part of the out games for, uh, as a judge for boxing and stuff like that. So, yeah, uh, you you mentioned right at the start that you're the youngest boxing judge in the world and also New Zealand's first gay boxing judge. Do you want to be seen as either of those two things If you know, in terms of people putting labels on you, is that is that something that you want to be seen as? Well, at the moment, it's quite exciting having those labels, I think, um, at the moment like when you're doing something new, it's good to have labels. It's like [00:15:30] Wow, Really? Thanks. Of course, these labels won't last for long. Or maybe the first gay one that they will last forever. But the youngest one currently. That won't last for long because there's always gonna be someone coming across coming along to be younger. But, um, I don't know, label so exciting sometimes, in my opinion, what would be your dream fight? Well, I've had, like, the idea of, like, David Tour versus Mike Tyson. That's one good one. Um, I had [00:16:00] a list of I actually did have a list, but, um, that was like the one that stick to me. Also, like one day when Joseph Parker gets much bigger, um, he would I want him to fight Klitschko. KLIA doesn't retire, but he would be a good match for Klis. Um, I can't say Floyd faces Pacquiao any anymore because that's just happened. And not a lot of people got disappointed from that because they wanted something more exciting. But, you know, it's one [00:16:30] defensive fighter for his aggressive fighter. That was been to happen. Um, for any other dream fights a lot of people say Mike Tyson is, um um Muhammad Ali. Of course, it will never happen because big generation gap, but, um, yeah, I think that's about, um, my main dream fight. So, of course, um, Joseph Parker, Carlie Mehan, Um, gay Meehan David Tour when they were both in their primes. Not now, because they're old, [00:17:00] which is harsh to say, but true. I think that's about it. Do you kind of think it's like a bit of a like a drug, Like a bit of an addiction in terms of the, you know, the prestige and the and the kind of the glamour? Well, it's fame. In a way. It's another form of fame and stuff like that. So if me, personally, I wouldn't like to get hit in the face multiple times, like once every three months or something like that. But, you know, it's just to the end. They probably it [00:17:30] is a drug to them, and they it's a profession, their career. So, yeah, they probably enjoy it. And yeah, it is their addiction. And in terms of judging, I mean, is that a professional thing that you're doing? Or is it I mean, are you getting paid for it? I am getting paid for it. But that's, um I'm still at the lower end of my career, so I'm not getting a lot. So at the moment it's at hobby stage. But I, I kind of have myself a five year plan like I, I Of course, I'll start here in New Zealand, and [00:18:00] after getting 30 pro fights on my belt, I would to eventually make my way to Australia and get myself a judging licence there. And then, um, probably go from there to the UK. Get my judge judging licence with the British, um, British Boxing Commission. I think it's called. And then eventually maybe if maybe get a judging licence in, um, the States, one of the States, because, like each state has [00:18:30] their own law and what not most likely probably in New York, because that it's either New York, Las Vegas, Nevada or California. But yeah, but, um, I guess my dream job after all, that will probably be like a, um, supervisor for, like, the WB a or something like that, and you're down in Wellington this weekend to judge the WIB a women's super banter weight championship, [00:19:00] which I'm here to see. Actually, a New Zealander is actually part of that. But um she's if she wins, she will be the second woman from New Zealand to win a world title. And I think it's the third New Zealand born world champion because the first one was in the 19 twenties. The second one was 2006, which it was the first woman also the first woman to be world champion with the IBF, which is actually not a lot of people know that, but it's actually [00:19:30] a massive deal. Is there any difference between a male and a female fight? Yes, there is a big difference. The women fights are very, um, underrated. They they don't get a lot of media and stuff like that. And I think if I had a goal in boxing is to make more women fights and make it more prestigious and make people want to see women fighting like I gave the idea to like the Super Eight that [00:20:00] they should be a Super Eight women's tournament and they said that they would think about if there was a demand for it. But of course that means No. So, yeah, And also like this. Um, another idea was, um my other idea of trying to if there was another aim is probably bring, like, amateur boxing back into high schools because you don't see that anymore. And it's a shame, really, because boxing is a more of a, um, when you're at that age in high school, it's about discipline and [00:20:30] and stuff like that. So, yeah, and in terms of judging, when it comes to either a male fight or a female fight is, are you seeing it in exactly the same way? Or are there differences? Oh, no. I see it exactly the same way. Um, the box website, um, they see it differently, though. The, um, the women's they get. Since there's not a lot of women's boxes compared to the male boxes, it's easier to rank higher to get rankings [00:21:00] quite quite quickly in the women's boxing. Um, but you can see things changing, like there's more women fights that I'm trying to like, put my door and my foot in the door saying, Hey, put more woman fights, get them more credibility and stuff like that. You know, um, it's slightly changing because there's women fights happening. And if there are women fights like happening, becoming more equality with women fights, it's probably gonna eventually be other stuff. Like, um, [00:21:30] maybe there will be ga boxing like the out games and stuff like that. So, yeah, you can see a slight change happening. And it it's always going to be such a male dominant, very masculine testosterone type sport. But you can see that there's there will be a slight change, but it's interesting from what you've been saying. It doesn't sound like it's necessarily kind of exclusionary. You're not. The people in the sport aren't excluding other people. It's more that people aren't kind of coming to the sport. Yeah, it's [00:22:00] personal interests, like you probably say it's a hobby, and people make making something from this hobby. But yeah, ultimately, it's just an interest. And if people get into it, they get into it. You mentioned right at the very start that you're also getting married in the next little while. Um, can you tell me about that? Are you happy to talk about that? Yes. Um, I'm getting married to someone who's actually transgender, which a lot of people like, confused with that, Um, because, like, they [00:22:30] see me as a gay male getting married to someone who's transgender, that's female to male. And people are like, right, you're It's like, No, I I'm I'm gay. I'm heavily gay. And I announce myself as gay. I just don't mind the body parts, you know, like I am attracted to males. I don't care about their, um, their sex parts or anything like that. So yeah, but, um, yeah, getting married [00:23:00] on the 19th of June. Just trying to remember, I I've already finished planning everything, So I'm quite excited about that. And why is marriage important? Uh, why is marriage important? I don't know. This makes it's kind of like a new milestone for myself. And like with the whole gay marriage and stuff like that, it was a lot of there's. I've spoken to a lot of people gay people, straight people and stuff like that. A lot of people don't like [00:23:30] the idea of marriage just in general, because I think it's just a piece of paper. Um, even gay people think this. What's the point of gang gay marriage? Because, like, there's other important things to talk about and stuff like that, and I My reaction to them is like, Oh, gay marriage is a step to those important things. If you don't think gay marriage is important, then take gay marriage is the next step to take that step to important things. Um, I think [00:24:00] like to my personal opinion, gay marriage is not a problem for me anymore. Like we've got it now. So I think it's important that we had it. But now we've got it. I think the next important thing is to, uh, looking into the whole transgender stuff like it's ridiculously hard to get, um, transgender surgery here, especially funded by the the Public Health Board. Um, because, um, the [00:24:30] health insurance in New Zealand sees, um, transgender surgery as cosmetic, which I'm like, Hey, so, um, which I feel like it's kind of like a slap in the face to them. In fact, um, I know this from my partner, um, in California. Um, they passed this law earlier this year late last year Where, um, medical insurance, health [00:25:00] insurance. They cannot, um, discriminate against the transgender community when it comes to surgeries from top surgery, bomb surgery, all the surgeries and hormone treatment and psychology and stuff like that. And I'm thinking, if California, which is land of United States who some people think they're not the land of the free, which they claim they are, um can do it, then why can't we do that? It's quite a I think it's a good idea that we could probably pass that on [00:25:30] to the government or something like that. So, yeah, and the choice between having a civil union and a marriage was that ever kind of talked about? No, it's always being marriage. It wasn't even a question. Um, mainly because civil unions in New Zealand isn't recognised internationally. Marriages are recognised internationally. Civil unions aren't recognised internationally. So if for some reason that my partner got in hospital and overseas, I brought civil unions like, Ah, they'll be like, No, [00:26:00] I they'll be like You can only be family if you want to meet your, um see your partner or something like that And I was like, I got a civil union saying, I'm the husband and they'll be like, No, civil union is not recognised in this country. Can you tell me a wee bit about, um, how the wedding is going to go. We're very nontraditional. It's quite a boring wedding. We're just doing it in the registry office, which is actually how my brother did it for his straight wedding. Um, he did it in a registry office. In fact, [00:26:30] I was the biggest laugh ever. He did it in shorts and a T shirt, and I've been pushing for myself to be done in shorts and a T shirt, And every time I suggested it, I'd get told off. So I was like, Damn Oh, yeah. How have you found the planning? Has it been quite stressful, or has it been really enjoyable? It's quite natural for me. I'm I'm good at planning stuff for me. I have OCCOCCO CD about [00:27:00] time and punctuality. So when you put that towards planning, it comes, um, planning comes quite natural to me. And, of course, I. I hit a few barriers, but I just click to Oh, let's do this Instead, it's quite easy. It's actually quite cheaper as well. So never really a problem when it comes to events, planning and wedding planning and stuff like that. Well, congratulations. Uh, I hope I hope the day goes really well and, um, yeah, it's really fantastic news. Thanks very much.

IRN: 884
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/shift_hui_2015_beyond_rainbows.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004360
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089654
TITLE: Beyond Rainbows panel discussion
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Emilie Rākete; Tabby Besley
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Australia; Hamilton; Māori; Ngāti Kahungunu; People Against Prisons Aotearoa (formerly known as No Pride In Prisons); Shift hui; Shift hui (2015); Tabby Besley; Tapu te Ranga Marae; Tino Rangatiratanga; Wellington; androgynous; arts; autism; butch; demisexual; disability; elders; exclusion; fa'afafine; femininity; femme; gender fluid; gray-A sexual; hegemonic power; identity; lesbian; marginalisation; mental health; minority; non-binary; normativity; occupation; pansexual; parenting; power; pronouns; queer; transgender; white supremacy; youth
DATE: 18 April 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Tapu te Ranga Marae, 46C Rhine Street, Island Bay, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast panel members talk about the challenges of being a minority within rainbow communities. Unfortunately due to technical difficulties this recording ends part-way through the discussion.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So we'll start with just asking everyone to just introduce a little bit about themselves. And so today we've got a couple, as you can see of our young people who are attending the to speak and also a couple of our slightly older, um, slight. I'm not gonna say eldest slight, slightly elder. Um, awesome people from our local, um, community. Um, everyone, um, I'm Emmy. Um, I'm not actually a local. I'm from Auckland. [00:00:30] Um, so, um, obviously, my are all from Northland. Um, but I grew up in Auckland for my whole life. Um, but I was very kindly invited to come down to, um to participate in this panel. Um, so I'm really excited to be here. Um, I guess I'm here from here for my group. No pride in prisons or maybe just myself. I'm not sure we'll see what I talk about. If it [00:01:00] ends up being relevant, then that's what it was. And if it doesn't, then I was just here as me. Everyone. I'm Jess. Um, I live here in Wellington. Um, I grew up in Hamilton most of my life. Um, yeah, my name is, um I currently live in Wellington I basically [00:01:30] threw labels at my self until I found the ones that stuck. Like I'm now gender fluid. Pansexual somewhere between grey asexuals and demisexual Maori and a parent. Greetings to you all as well. Um, I've never known what warm Pacific greetings means. [00:02:00] Um, so, um, but I've always thought it was because you couldn't pronounce. Um it was very hard to squeeze in all different European greetings. Just the thought Alex is laughing. Probably one of the on the panel here as well. Thank you. Um, just in terms of, um, beyond the rainbow and being a minority, I identify as many things and one of them 11, the M I very proudly within my, um and you know, as yeah, I'll talk [00:02:30] about this a bit later. I'm very open to questions. Um, as well as So, um, thanks for the opportunity. Um, hi. I'm Alex. Um, I have been living in New Zealand for about 10 years. My family are from Cyprus in Australia. Um, live in Wellington now. Uh, I am intersex and trans and queer, and I am a nursing student. An artist. [00:03:00] Uh, yeah, that is me. So some of you have already talked about this. Um, but you're welcome to say more. Or for those who haven't, um what identities do you have that make you feel like a minority within the rainbow community, And those could be any kinds of parts of your identity. So before I, like, begin this, um, I tend to ramble a bit and sometimes, um, because I'm kind of embedded in academia, And, [00:03:30] um, some of the words that I use, um might be a little bit inaccessible. So, um, I really encourage anyone who wants me to, like, stop and explain a little more clearly. Maybe what I'm talking about, um, that's not rude or anything. That's just because, um, I have a real bit hibi. Um, but I'm I'm trying my most to avoid doing it. But I, I know that I have a tendency to do so. So, um yeah, just stick your hand up or make eyes, or however you feel comfortable. Um, so, first of all, I am [00:04:00] I think that, um the way that we tend to frame, um ourselves in terms of our identities as, um, why we face marginalisation in society can be, um, a little bit of a kind of double bind. Um, it's I feel like it's useful as a shorthand to kind of, um, quickly express ways in which we might experience violence, um, in our lives. But I think in the long term, um, if we continue to talk about why we are subjugated [00:04:30] in society and subjected to violence in terms of something about ourselves and our identities, it takes a focus on, um, we talk about fixing the problem. We talk about ourselves and as a Maori person, the reason that I'm subjected to violence in the society has nothing to do with me or being Maori. It has everything to do with the military occupation of this country by the New Zealand government. Um, it's got nothing to do with being Maori. It's nothing to do with me. [00:05:00] Um, it's the structures of power outside of myself, and I think that's very similar in terms of being a trans woman or being a lesbian. Um, none of that is on me or on my identities and everything on the, um, the society around May, which subjects me to those violences. So, um, what I think is this obviously it is very important to have these panels so we can talk about, um, our marginalisation, which might not be addressed in broader spaces. But I don't think that it is [00:05:30] those identities in themselves, which we need to talk about but the, um, the structures of power which operate which we aren't addressing in our mainstream organisations. Because it's not that we don't have enough Maori around us that no one wants to talk about like white supremacy in this country. And I think that's the, um like those are the issues that we need to address, not Maori inclusion, but white supremacy, exclusion, if that makes sense. Um, so I think I kind of snuck [00:06:00] in kind of my identities in there anyway, so that I could kind of because it is useful as a shorthand. Um, because I am a I am Maori and I am a lesbian and a trans woman, and it is important to talk about those things. But I think it's important to then move on away from ourselves and on to the stuff around us. Which destroys us, in my opinion. Come on. Thanks for all that stuff. That is awesome. I totally agree? Um, [00:06:30] yeah. Um, similarly, I'm a trans woman. Um, I'm queer. Um, I identify as androgynous slash Butch, I can't really figure it out. Um, but I feel like that makes shit confusing being a trans woman when you're not real feminine, and it's it makes stuff hard for people to understand who you are, where you're coming from. [00:07:00] Um, um, I'm on the autism spectrum. Um, yeah. So it's and yeah, I guess I got some physical disability stuff. Um, just bad joints and whatnot. Um, yeah, and so there's a lot of Yeah, I guess I'd like to mention Norma in terms of how [00:07:30] society operates and excludes people who don't fit in with within a quite narrow range of ability, Whether that's psychological or how your body works or anything. Um, yeah, that's awesome. I find that when people find out that I'm a parent, they automatically [00:08:00] make my other identities invisible. They hear parent and assume mother or heterosexual and explaining that to people can be more difficult because they assume that because I had 11 sexual encounter with a male that all of my sexual encounters are going to be [00:08:30] that way and that because I have been pregnant. I identify as a woman. I think the is a very you know, not many. Um, not many people in my environment identify as, um and I want to say I work in a government arts cultural heritage sector. Um, and I really advocate and identify that within that sector because I'm really [00:09:00] aware that, you know, I come from a long line of people in terms of my family and my, um but also, it's about the people that are coming up within that, um, that cultural heritage that that will take on this role. So, um, I advocate as part of my identity as well. Um, and but I've also accepted with age that I'm very fluid with my identity. I mean, like, probably two years ago, I was like, pansexual Or, you know, or five years ago, I was a really proud, gay brown male, [00:09:30] and I think nothing's wrong with that as well. I think, um, yeah, I think times and values and your own kind of cultural beliefs, um are just as flawed as your identity. Um, some things happen to you that impact, what happens to you so I've just come to accept that, you know, as a person generally, like, culturally, um, pretty, pretty flawed with everything. And that's pretty cool. I'm a That's how we roll if you're, [00:10:00] you know, into astrology. OK, thanks. And thanks, everyone. That's some really awesome stuff. Um, yeah. So, um, being intersex is probably the, like, most marginalising of my identities. Um, yeah, uh, but I'm yeah, being a non binary trans person and being a fem non binary trans person who is female, identified at birth, like, um and having I don't [00:10:30] know if having mental health stuff is actually a a minority thing in the rainbow community. I don't know, is it? But yeah. Having mental health problems? Yeah. Um, but yeah, um, having like mixed mood disorder as well, I definitely see that it, um, in combination with my other identities helps to marginalise me from mainstream society. Um, yeah. So I also wanted [00:11:00] to kind of acknowledge that even though I'm kind of speaking from my identity as an intersex person and that potentially, I'm maybe one of the very, very few maybe the only intersex person that anyone here will ever meet or know that they have met, Um, that my experience is like, yeah, my own experience and that intersex is a real diverse group. Um, and a lot of people within the intersex community [00:11:30] don't actually see being intersex as part of their identity. Like, um, there's, uh, intersects youth from America who talked about how, um, for him, um, having like being intersex was like having allergies like it was a part of that person. But it wasn't like, this is who I am. So yeah, even though I'm talking about it from an identity perspective today, I kind of wanted to acknowledge that, um, so [00:12:00] I definitely feel other than that that the fem fem non binary trans person thing is kind of another thing that I find really difficult because, um, people just don't see me. They see me as a woman. Um and, um, like, if I don't bind my boobs or something that I'm not, um, outside of outside of the binary, Um, yeah, and having female pronouns. [00:12:30] Yeah. Um, people just don't see me for who I am, and it's kind of hard to get people to understand, because non binary identities are something that a lot of people can't wrap their heads around and aren't aware of. So yeah, that's what I want to say. Thank you. And I think, yeah, especially Thanks, Alex, for some of those points you made about how sometimes the things that make us marginalised aren't, um you know, they're not necessarily parts of our identity or things that we get to have much [00:13:00] say over the things that society put on to us or that we're born with. And all this, you know, stuff that we don't actually get the same in but still affects how we're treated. Um, that's really important. Um, So what challenges do you experience being part of the rainbow community? Um, as the wonderful people that you are facing these different, um, identities or things that society puts on to you. I'm sorry. I made a bit of a tactical floor by sitting right here. I have to kind of start the conversation every [00:13:30] time we can change it. If you like. Maybe you could like, um, to that end. When the microphone gets back over there, we kind of go back and forth because I have to run across, um so challenges. Um, yeah, I think it's interesting kind of trying to conduct, um ourselves as, um people working towards, um within queer spaces because, um, queer spaces tend to be very white [00:14:00] spaces. Um, probably just more on balance of numbers rather than any kind of active exclusion of Maori. I think maybe I'm not a professional sociologist yet. So ask me in, like, four years, and I'm sure I'll have. I'm sure I'll have something more to say on that for you. Um but, um, there's a tendency to be very single issue with our groups and our organisations where we try to pick a thing that we're going to work towards and then we'll all focus all of our energy on that, but [00:14:30] because minority people are in the minority right, So it's hard for us to advocate as strongly for our groups to all work towards the issues that we need addressed when not everyone needs those issues addressed. So like as a trans woman, it's very hard in spaces where I'm the only trans woman to be like, Hey, can we talk about like, trans misogyny and stuff because no one wants to, or when I'm Maori, it's hard to say like, Hey, can we like, end the occupation? Because, um, you know, I'm not. I'm the only one who's really [00:15:00] going to benefit from that happening. Um, there's a like, it's difficult to talk about the way that in our queer spaces, we're still really, really capable of perpetuating. Um, like, hegemonic power because we're queers, right? So we get treated real badly all the time. Ah, sorry. Thank you, Jay. Um, so, um, I, I said, like, hegemonic power. Um, that's the idea that, um the way that society is structured and [00:15:30] the way that it continues to operate, um continues the marginalisation of groups who are kind of forced under, um So, like, in New Zealand, for instance, the, um, the government here is an extension of the invasion of, um, Maori sovereign territory. Um, so that means that the society is, um, a hegemonic one in which pakeha are the dominant ethnic group, and Maori and people that's people of colour [00:16:00] are the, um, kind of subjugated peoples. Um, and in queer spaces, it's difficult to address that hegemonic power, the the way that society is structured to, um kind of produce people on top and people on bottom. Maybe that was a poor choice of for a queer panel. See, I can still slip in funny jokes. Um, but society can be structured to kind of produce these inequalities. Um, and even when we're queers and queer spaces, [00:16:30] we can still perpetuate these, um, inequalities. And it's hard to talk about them because we're queer and we're used to being treated real badly because of who we are. And it's hard to, um, confront the ways in which we can still be continuing the marginalisation of others. Um, but I think it's like, real important to work towards addressing it.

IRN: 879
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/butch_on_butch_cathie.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004359
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089653
TITLE: Cathie - Butch on Butch
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Baron Cooke of Thorndon; Butch on Butch (exhibition/series); Eastern Hutt School; Hutt Intermediate School; Hutt Valley High School; Jac Lynch; Lower Hutt; New Zealand Law Society; Salient (magazine); Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington; The Drag Kings (Wellington); Urzila Carlson; Wellington; ballet; butch; capping revue; clothing; comedy; drag; drag kings; drama; employment; family; fat; film; friends; laughter; law; lawyer; legal aid; lesbian; pants; performance; queer; school; siblings; small business; standup comedy; support; theatre; theatre sports; tomboy; uniform; university
DATE: 27 April 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Cathie describes what it is like being queer in the legal profession and doing stand-up comedy.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I grew up in lower Hutt. I'm, uh, born in Wellington, but, uh, a hut girl through and through in my upbringing. Um, I have two older brothers and, um, normal ish nuclear family of, um, growing up with, uh, with my parents staying together and my two brothers there, Where did you go to school? In the hut. Started off at, uh, Eastern Hut primary school. Um, I was a little [00:00:30] tomboy there. Um, went on to intermediate and huval high. So when you were a little tomboy, uh, did you go into a big tomboy at at high school? Oh, yeah, definitely a big tomboy at high school. But although there's slightly less, uh, availability for expression of that when you have to wear a uniform. But, uh, yeah, I was always one of the first girls in the in the pants, uh, at school, uh, when you could, um, [00:01:00] because you're only supposed to wear them in winter, you know, to keep warm. Otherwise, you're supposed to wear the stupid skirt. Did you get any pressure to be more girlish, more feminine? Uh, not not from the outside world or from school or from anything like that, I think that, um, my parents would have liked me to have been more girly. Um, they've got two sons. Um, [00:01:30] they wanted a daughter. Uh, and I think deep down, um, you know, things like them sending me to ballet classes that they wanted a different kind of daughter than they got. And I I wasn't quite what they wanted. Um, but, uh, you know, bearing that in mind, they sort of, uh you know, Mom would say you would Do you like the skirt when you know, when we went shopping rather than me heading straight for the trousers, But it it wasn't. Oh, God. Me heading straight for the trousers. That sounds [00:02:00] bad for the trouser rack. Um, yeah. So But it was just It was very, uh, if if anything, it was a subtle pressure. It wasn't really anything. Um, anything heavy or restrictive on me, but, uh, yeah, it would have been nicer for them if I'd been a nicer, girly type girl. And so, what sort of friends did you have at school? Were they like you or just a range A range? Pretty much. I think that by the time [00:02:30] I got to high school. I was hanging out a lot with the with the drama kids. Um, and you know, there's a wide range there. So, you know, there wasn't anything, um, any particular kind of people that I hung out with, Uh, I didn't know at high school that, um, I was a lesbian or even really think anything about being butch or anything like that. So I didn't sort of seek out the company of other people like myself. Um, [00:03:00] I didn't Yeah, I just, uh I liked the kind of clothes I liked, and, um, that seemed OK, so, yeah, I didn't didn't feel ostracised or anything like that because of it. So after high school, where did you head? I went to Victoria University and again, um, gravitated towards the drama people. Um, very early on joined the, um, drama Club there. [00:03:30] And, uh, my first thing there was the, um, annual capping review. Uh, so yeah, I think that was when I discovered how much I like making people laugh. So what What were the sorts of acts that you're involved in in the capping review. Oh, gosh, that was a really long time ago. That capping review because I did A I did. Must have done about five or six of them when I was at uni. Um, and, uh, that 10, interestingly [00:04:00] enough, I got cast as a, um, you know, sort of tuxedo wearing bouncer in the, um, one of my first sketches. Um, me and this other woman kind of butching it up and being the the bouncers on the door and telling people that they couldn't get in. For whatever reason, were you doing stand up at that stage? No, I was just really joining in with, um uh, you know, sketches. I was writing sketches and joining in with other people doing them. Um, so you know, something like a capping review would be a series of, [00:04:30] you know, 3 to 4 minute sketches, um, with different people in them and the big, big, big, big casts for those kind of shows. And, um, it was just, uh it was really fun. And you got to meet lots of people and kind of just sort of immerse myself in university culture. Uh, for the first time, it was, uh yeah, baptism by fire. Maybe. Was this the late eighties or nineties? Yeah, late eighties. So my first one was 1988 [00:05:00] and, um, they'd had a long time without having capping reviews. And then in 88 they they kick started them again. Um and so, yeah, it was a little bit of a wait and see what happens, uh, with those, but yeah, they, um they were again. They were really popular during the, um, late eighties, early nineties. What were you studying studying at, um, university. I, uh, did a B A in theatre and film and a law degree. [00:05:30] Um, I really wanted to do the the drama stuff. That was where my, um uh, passions were. And my mom really wanted me to do the law, because, um, really, it's so hard to make a living, um, being a performer, uh, and I wanted to do that anyway, and it's it's it's kind of ironic that she was right. And now I can make a living being a lawyer when I could never really make a living being a performer. [00:06:00] Um, and, uh, I'm really glad I followed her advice and, um, and did both. Yeah. So how long were you at university in the end. Oh, so long at university. I think I was there for eight years, because I, um, doing the two degrees is, um, is basically six years worth, And then for two years, I, um, worked full time on the student newspaper. [00:06:30] Salient. Um, one year I was the, um, the journalist writing most of the news stories and articles, uh, that weren't contributed by other people. And then, uh, the next year I was the editor. So, um yeah, and that was an amazing experience for, you know, for being that young. I was in charge of a basically small business having to run the whole thing. Um, when I was the editor. So, uh, with that doing [00:07:00] that sort of thing and then with being so involved with the, um University drama Club and doing theatre and film, those were the really kind of, like, great learning experiences. Uh, for me, Um though that's where I got lots of experience that I could then go and get a job from, rather than actually the study that I did. It was the extracurricular things that I did that, um well, I think made me someone who [00:07:30] could be employable, and you come from a family of lawyers or at least one lawyer. Is that right? Yes. Law is very heavy in the family. Actually, um, my dad's a lawyer. Um, my mom was a legal executive. Uh, my brother's a lawyer. I've got a lawyer and a judge. Um, cousins, Um and, uh, you know, in between all of that. They've like married lawyers and [00:08:00] things like that as well. It's, uh, a very, uh, very law heavy family and, uh, you know, sort of going back. My, um My grandfather, uh, was a judge as well. And, um, my, uh, great uncle a few times removed or something was, um uh, Lord cook of Thornton, the New Zealand Law Lord. So it was Yeah, it's kind of, [00:08:30] um uh in not not pushed in that direction. But, um, you know, there was such a strong emphasis on it in our household. Um, and also, when you study law, you suddenly have to learn to think in a different way. You've got to think about what's the issue and the legal problems and things like that. And I'd grown up my entire life doing that. It was like to borrow the car. I had to make an application and triplicate [00:09:00] and put, you know, the reasons and the grounds I had for wanting to borrow the car. So yeah, it was, you know, just sort of grew up in that. So it was a natural progression to, um, study it and then do it. And you're a lawyer now, working in the legal aid system. Uh, do a lot of legal aid work. I'm a criminal defence lawyer and family court lawyer. Um, I really like the court side of things. [00:09:30] Um, because it is there is an element of performance in there. And, um, I suppose there's an element of the drama in it And how you structure your case and your arguments. Um, and you know, the audience is, uh is your judge or your jury, And, uh, so there's there's dramatic possibilities in there as well, Which I I like Um, so, yeah, do a lot of, uh, legal aid work, Um, largely with, um, [00:10:00] with the criminal work. Um, be because that's where most of the, um, uh, criminal work comes from through legal aid in the photo we took for but on. But you were wearing your gown, and, uh, we were in a courtroom. And, um, in the narrative that you wrote for that to go alongside the portrait you talked about, um, how it was, uh, first getting into law and what you were expected [00:10:30] to dress as. Can you go through that for us? Well, um, it obviously, um, the kind of clothes you're supposed to wear for, for courts in particular, Um, are very formal. Um, for men, there's, you know, really quite a strict dress code. Even now that you have to wear a suit and a tie. Uh, and for women, you have to wear a jacket that covers your arms and shoulders. You're not supposed to have bare arms. Um, well, and [00:11:00] although even now, I sort of see some lawyers, especially in somewhere, and they're wearing, um, is, you know, you can see their shoulders. I think. Oh, my God. What's the judge gonna say? Um, and it kind of depends on the circumstances. I. I saw, um, recently one male lawyer colleague of mine. Um, he'd come in in winter with a jersey underneath his jacket. Um, so he was wearing his tie [00:11:30] shirt all buttoned up tie right up to the top, but AAA kind of V neck jersey under his jacket. And the and the lawyer and the judge reprimanded him about it in court and said, You know, that's that's not suitable at Tyre. Um, but when I was studying law, um, women were supposed to wear skirts. Long skirts. Um, and by the time I got to studying law, I had long since left skirts [00:12:00] behind. Unless I was wearing them as part of a costume. Um, and so I felt really uncomfortable about the idea of following through with the kind of work that I wanted to do, which is showing up in court. Um, if I had to do that to kind of I, I wouldn't feel comfortable wearing a skirt. Um, I would I would feel like I was in drag. Um, but by the time I actually started practising, [00:12:30] um, and probably a little bit before then because that would have been in the, um, nineties that that was that kind of code. So, um, 15 years later, it was a lot more relaxed. And there were, um, other women wearing wearing trousers there as well um, so, yeah, I felt more comfortable about that, but the the idea of, um, it being so strict that you would actually get told off for what you were wearing, um, in front of other people. Um, [00:13:00] that, uh, did put me off a little bit about, um uh, how I would go into this profession. Either I would have to dress in a way that, um, made me feel really uncomfortable. Um, or it kind of pushed those boundaries. Um, in a way, which also made me feel uncomfortable, because if you're a lawyer starting out, you don't want to be the one pushing the boundaries. Um, so, [00:13:30] uh, I don't know who when. Why, how? But those, um, norms changed. And by the time I started practising in the in the noughties, uh, it was Yeah, it was fine. You still got to look, um, smart, like, wearing a matching suit or, you know, matching outfit. And, um but really, um, apart from the tie, I'm wearing the male, um, dress code, [00:14:00] not the female dress code. I don't know what would happen if I actually wore a tie. Whether I would actually kind of then get more raised eyebrows. Um, it's not really me to wear a tie either, because that's kind of that's too male. Um, but yeah, Wearing a skirt is not male enough. So you've never been reprimanded? No, I haven't, [00:14:30] um, being a sole practitioner, Um, and, uh, doing most of my work, um, on on my own with other people kind of mentoring me from outside. Um, I, uh, have had to try and make sure I don't make mistakes like that because I don't have another organisation behind me to back me up when it comes to things like that. Um, so, you know, if if I ended up in front of the law society [00:15:00] for wearing the wrong clothes Uh, not that I think that that would be what would happen. I would hope, um, unless you want something really inappropriate. But there's just so many layers of formality involved in in the legal profession, And, um, part of it is to set the legal profession above, um, uh, above the people that they represent [00:15:30] and to have that level of formality to say, Um, this is a lawyer, not a, um, not a criminal defendant. Or, um uh and and those those layers of formality are also there to make, um, somebody's court experience something that they don't want to repeat again. They it's there to make people feel uncomfortable and, um, and and to make them think I don't want to have to ever [00:16:00] go through this again. I'm not gonna break the law as, um someone who's queer. How has that been for you in the legal profession, You know, I know there are a lot of, uh, other queer lawyers out there. Um, statistically speaking, they have to be. I know some of them who I've met in my personal life, but there isn't any kind of, um, a queer support group for, um, for the legal profession. [00:16:30] Um, which surprises me a little bit. Um, it has made me think on occasion that, um it would be a good thing to go and set up. And, um, certainly, um, now that you know, and and I and I think over the past, even over the past decade that, um, queer issues have come more to the fore. And, um, uh, diversity is more accepted and even something as state as the as the legal [00:17:00] profession. Um, but, you know, there are, um, support groups for women, Um, support groups, uh, for, um, people with disabilities, um, support groups for, um, Maori and Pacifica. Uh, lawyers. There are, um, all sorts of things, but there's, uh yeah, nothing. Nothing queer. You just you just kind of sometimes, you know that there are other people. So even when you're starting [00:17:30] out socialising with queer lawyers, lesbian lawyers, that wasn't really what was around for you? Not really. Um I. I don't tend to socialise much with lawyers. Anyway, um, and I don't know whether it's, um, something inherent in me that, um I just tend not to quite fit in wherever I go. And [00:18:00] it was a, you know, a university, um, studying law and drama. I didn't really entirely fit in with the drama people because I had this law side of me, which was just the, um serious. And, you know, there's even the study of law was so much more strictly adhered to than than, um than the drama side of things. And then I didn't really fit in with the law students because I also did this drama stuff, and, um, and [00:18:30] Of course, I wasn't taking everything quite as seriously as I should have. And I didn't spend as much time in the library as I should have. And so, I I never really felt, um, at home in either of those camps. Um, I guess, uh, you know, if there were if there was something, um, more easily accessible of finding other lesbian or other queer lawyers, I really should go and talk to the law society about setting up some kind of a thing, shouldn't I? [00:19:00] Then, um, you know, that would actually be something that, um might attract me towards socialising with with other lawyers on a on a more frequent basis. I'm just not really all that sociable now that I'm, you know, in my forties, it's sort of sociable. Means I can't be sitting on the couch relaxing. So you are also involved in comedy in a big way. Um, [00:19:30] can you tell us sort of things that you've been up to? I know there's stand up. I know there's drag kings, but I know there's other things as well. Uh, that all really started when I was at uni, And, um, that was when, um you know, theatre sports were new, was new, and, um, and an exciting thing to be involved in. And I kind of joined up with some people from university who were doing that. And then it, um, sort of grew [00:20:00] into a professional gig. Um, that we would put on a theatre sports show every week, and so that kind of got me into the wider, um, comedy, um, performance professional side of things. Um, and so that was kind of, um yeah, my first sort of paying jobs, doing that sort of thing. And then, um, the people who were organising that one of [00:20:30] them said, Oh, we're putting on the stand up comedy night. Um, and we'll pay people $80 for three minutes worth of material. Well, $80 for three minutes. I'm in. Of course it's not. Actually, you don't actually spend three minutes doing it. That's actually only how long you are on stage. Um, and, uh, the actual preparation for it is far more nerve wracking than the actual three minutes that you spend on stage doing it. But that's sort of how I, um how I got into it. It was, um [00:21:00] It was so, um, exciting to make people laugh. It just, um it it gives you a buzz that, um I don't think any drug that I've ever tried, not that I've tried that many drugs, that any drug that I've ever tried gives you that kind of a a thrill. And it's the comedy. Is that much, uh, more dangerous than other forms of drama? Because if they don't laugh, you really know about [00:21:30] it, and you fall flat and you feel shit. Um, so that extra danger adds to the excitement, um, of doing it. It's kind of like the the bungee jumping of, um of the performing world. Um, in in in terms of you know how much, uh, personal risk you you're doing of people not thinking you're funny, not thinking you're whatever. And and and so that kind of, um, [00:22:00] yeah, that's part of the buzz of it. Um, and it's been quite interesting being a woman comedian, um, and a lesbian comedian. Um, because, you know, uh, I'm not supposed to be funny with those kind of credentials. Um, and and a lot of people, um, think that already to try and have to break down that kind of a a stereotype. Um, [00:22:30] and I do think it is harder to be a woman comedian or either stand up or any other kind of comedian than it is to be AAA man. And, um, from my experience, I think that, um at least part of that is because, um if you have a bunch of women in the audience and they're listening to a male comedian talk about his Penis, um, [00:23:00] women are able to think I that must I. I can put myself in his shoes and kind of imagine what it would be like to have a Penis. But generally speaking, men are not as good at being able to relate to other people's lives. So, uh, the number of times that I've had men feedback from men saying I just didn't get it, um, because I, I didn't know what you were talking about. Um, and that's kind of sad. Really. [00:23:30] Um, that just for the lack of the ability to be able to think what would What would that be like for me if that was me? Um, they're missing out on a huge amount of hilarity. And, um uh, and enjoyment and a wealth of knowledge and things that they've never thought about as well. Um, I've even had on occasions. Um, you know, times when, um, especially when I was really busy as a Stand-Up [00:24:00] comedian. And I was one of the at the time, one of the most prominent Wellington comedians. Um, And so when we did, uh, when we did shows, um, you know, I might be the last person going on because I was the, you know, most experienced. Start off with the rookie people first, and then sort of build it up to your your biggest name at the end kind of thing. Um, and one time I did this performance and the, um, organiser came up to me and said, Oh, I don't know if I should tell you about this, but, uh, one [00:24:30] of those guys just, uh, just said, Oh, he didn't think you were very funny. He didn't know why you were the last person on. He just didn't get it. Uh um, because he didn't find me attractive. What? What the If I wasn't doing it for you, mate. And actually, it pointed out to me because I probably don't find him attractive, either. I mean, it's just like what the what the what? That has got absolutely nothing to do with it. But that's [00:25:00] it does, um, unfortunately have something to do with it. So, uh, you know, not only, um, you know, when I was reading something, uh, yesterday about Ursula Carson and, uh, there were some people saying, Oh, she's so funny. It's great comments on a on an, you know, Internet thing. She's so funny. I think she's so cool and blah, blah, blah. And then, um, other people going, I don't think she's funny. And that's fine. No, you don't have to find anybody [00:25:30] funny in particular. And then there were Ah, she's fat, lesbian, blah blah, blah. And it's kind of like that's got nothing to do with whether she's funny or not. She doesn't even actually spend that much time talking about that. It's not a focus of what she's doing. Why is that what you see when she has so many other attributes? Um, that she's actually making jokes about the things that she's talking about? Maybe if if you didn't like something there [00:26:00] that she was talking about, that would be OK, but otherwise, just off. So, you know, even 20 years later, it's still the same stuff. And it's just they're talking about somebody else instead of talking about me, you do stand up as yourself as Cathy Sheet, and you also do characters. What are some of your favourite characters? Oh, well, the characters, I kind of think of [00:26:30] them as being drag characters, whether they're male or female. Um, because, um, they're not me. They're always someone who is. I hope that, uh, significantly different than me. Um, I guess my favourite one would be the one I do most often, which is, uh, the, uh, incredibly sleazy, uh, Tony Alon. Um, I. I wonder whether he's, uh, kind of, [00:27:00] uh a an alternative actual, other side of me. Um, because he behaves in such a, um uh, inappropriate. Um, lewd, Um uh, objectionable way, Uh, in a way that, um nice, polite me would never ever behave. Um, is that actually, uh, an aspect of me [00:27:30] inside of me screaming to get out? Um, I don't think so, because, um, you know, people who behave like that, um, don't make their way in the world very well. um or is it just something that because it's so opposite for me? I enjoy doing it. I'd I'd like to think that it is the opposite of me enjoying doing it then that it's another side of me that I'm just not letting out. Um, there are other characters that I really like doing. Um, kinda, uh, [00:28:00] you know, when I play a man, I kind of like someone who's just, uh, kind of quite ordinary, um, and relatable and, um, the kind of guy that you might meet on the street, but with certain characteristics exaggerated for comedic effect. And I suppose it's the same with the women, though when I do drag characters, women, Um, it's Yeah. It's [00:28:30] still just so very different from me. I think that that's what I like doing, drag. It's It's different for me. Um, you get to play dress up and play silly buggers and just, um, have a laugh. You were involved in the butch and Butch exhibition. Can you tell us about why you, um you wanted to be a part of that? Um, possibly because if I didn't, I'd be kicking myself. Um, it seemed [00:29:00] like a good idea at the time. Um, it is kind of, um, a little bit weird for me because I am really quite introverted. Um, but there are particular situations in which, um, it is OK to, um, make a song and dance. And I guess that this was a, uh, a way to make a song and dance, actually, about me, rather than, um, another [00:29:30] character. Um, and even when, um, when I'm doing something like stand up comedy you you you're doing it to be as much like you as possible, Um, and to sound as conversational as possible and stuff. But you you're not really talking about the things that matter. You're talking about things which are funny and or or what you think can get a a laugh. And you're letting out your particular, um, way of thinking. [00:30:00] But not really what the innermost thoughts are. Not that this is kind of that confessional either, but it's a little bit more about me, and, um Yeah, it's a little bit strange for me to want to do this. Yeah.

IRN: 881
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/shift_hui_2015_participants.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004358
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089652
TITLE: Participants - Shift hui 2015
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Connor McLeod
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland Pride Festival; Christchurch; Connor McLeod; FtM; GLITCH Youth Decolonisation Hui (2015); Hamilton; Hui Takatāpui; Hui Takatāpui (2014); InsideOUT Kōaro; Kapiti Coast District; Kazam Youth Hui (2011); Marlborough; Masterton; Nelson; Nikki Kaye; Palmerston North; Patchwork hui (2013); Porirua; Pride; Pride parade; Pride parade (Auckland); Project Youth (Kapiti); Rainbow Collective; Rainbow Youth; School's Out (Wellington); Shift hui; Shift hui (2015); Tapu te Ranga Marae; Te Punawai (Auckland); Village Collective (Auckland); Waikato Queer Youth; Wellington; Whanganui; Whangarei; aromantic; asexual; assumptions; biromantic; bisexual; cis; community; counselling; culture; diversity; fa'afafine; facebook. com; fakaleiti; family; food; fortune telling; friends; gay; gender fluid; gender identity; genderqueer; heteronormativity; hui; identity; internet; intersex; isolation; lesbian; minority; panic attack; pansexual; parents; performance; poetry; polysexual; powhiri; pronouns; queer straight alliance (QSA); religion; safe space; school; school counselor; self harm; sexual health; sexuality; social; spaces; straight; support; surgery; takatāpui; talent show; third gender; tikanga; transgender; triggers; tuakana; whakawhanaungatanga; youth
DATE: 19 April 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Tapu te Ranga Marae, 46C Rhine Street, Island Bay, Wellington
CONTEXT: Connor talks to Shift hui participants. The hui ran from the 16 - 19 April 2015 at Tapu Te Ranga Marae in Island Bay, Wellington.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, my name is Remy. I'm from Auckland, specifically, uh, area south Auckland. How did you find out about the this year? Uh, I was actually contacted by, uh, the group called Rainbow Collective. So it was I was at a youth fun that they held last year. Um, that was my first like event within our community that I attended. So I was asked to come to this one as well. So yeah, what are some of your favourite things? That about [00:00:30] the I think it was really, uh it was really great how everyone was so open and welcoming. And everyone was like, I feel like we all benefited in some way or another by learning from each other. And I think that, um it's really important that we continue to share our stories to, you know, make things better for future generations. If there was anything you'd like to talk to people to let people know about who is like, maybe why to [00:01:00] come to them, for example, what would you say? I would say that it's definitely an experience like before I ever attended anything like this. Like, I don't think anyone could have explained to me the feeling like it. It is a really. It is a really good, warm, welcoming feeling. I just tried to explain it just then, but I don't. You know, it's one of those things where you have to experience it for yourself. You know, it's if you feel like, you know, you're interested in these sort of things and wanna see, like minded open people. Then I recommend that you should attend. [00:01:30] Yeah, my name is is. And how do you identify yourself? Identify as, uh, whereabouts Are you from? And how did you hear about this? Um, so I'm from south Auckland and, um, Central. Um, and I heard about the through, um, the organisation member collective as I do work with him and stuff. And yeah, um, when do you? When you came to this, what did you expect? [00:02:00] Um, I really didn't know what to expect, because it I've, um It's my first year. Um, and it was also my first time out of Auckland. So like I was expecting, I don't know exactly what I was expecting. I just knew that I was gonna be around like minded people, and I was just I was just really excited about a lot of that. People have talked about at a Sometimes you come here and walls between people, [00:02:30] um, that usually exist on the outside. Just kind of go away in here really fast and that you get to meet people. Uh, do you agree with that? Or disagree. And, um, do you have any experiences with that at this? Um well, for me, personally, I don't, um I try not to put a pause. I try and, um, always keep it up in mind. And I'm not one to listen to gossip and stuff like that. Um, [00:03:00] I'm really keen to meet everyone and see how they how they are and stuff. Um, this who is, um, has been for me a really safe place. Um, where we can just come voice our opinions, um, and not create some like conflict. Um, we're just and I know it sounds cheesy. We're just free to, you know, be us. Hi. Uh, what's your name? Hello. My name is [00:03:30] Bianca and I am 14 and I'm from Auckland. And how would you identify yourself? I identify as a transgender woman. So from male to female, whereabouts are you from. And how did you find out about this? Who so, Like I said, I'm from the Auckland. But I'm from the south of Auckland from a little town called and I'm involved in a, um I'm actually one of the lead girls for our organisation we're working with called [00:04:00] and I came with Chinese at this so far, what has been one of your favourite experiences? The food. We've been completely on earth and the workshops are amazing as well. I mean, like, I got to learn so much more about different aspects of everything around the LGBT Q I community. Is this your first? No, I've been [00:04:30] to and glitch and I mean, how was big and it was cold, but I was mostly laid back than this. So there wasn't as much workshops, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Um, glitch was, in my opinion, if we're going to be completely honest, wasn't really, um, organised compared to this. I mean, like, I just loved it like everything was just done. Done, done, [00:05:00] done. Do you hear me? Have you found yourself maybe getting an experience here that others might like to know, say, like meeting somebody that you didn't expect to meet that you had a lot in common with, or maybe getting closer to somebody you already did. Totally. Yeah, like, Yeah, yeah, she like I met, um, Robben from down in Nelson. [00:05:30] And we just travelled a lot like we sort of had similar goals in life. And it was really cool. Like hearing her side of the story. Yeah. And what about the workshops? Can you maybe talk about an experience from there at the workshops? It's pretty much stuff I've heard before, but, I mean, in terms of the way they presented it, um, it was a little bit boring. If I'm gonna be honest, I'm in, like, [00:06:00] Yeah, I was just, like, facts, facts, facts. No, like, do you get me? Like it was just really boring, but like at the same time, I was really informative. If somebody, uh, wasn't sure about coming to a and they were going to talk to you, what would you say to them? I would encourage them to come because, I mean, deep down, like with every person who's leaving here, it's sort of growing them. You know, I recommend [00:06:30] everyone to come because it's like there's, like, some stuff that you get that, you know, you get stuff out of this. Like, even if it's something little, you still take away something with you. Like with myself. I'm taking away new meanings, definitions, skills, the way to keep myself safe. Condoms. You get me? Hey, there. Uh, what's your name? Um, my name is Peter Williams. And how would you identify yourself? Uh, well, most people would, [00:07:00] um, to do with pronouns would, um, go by male pronouns. I would go through male pronouns, Um, otherwise I I identify as also, and whereabouts are you from? And how did you find out about this? Who? I'm from Auckland, Um, in South Auckland. Um, so, yeah, 9. 5 hours. And, um, I heard about this. Who through my organisation. It was, um, an awesome opportunity [00:07:30] that I heard about, um to come and engage with the Wellington or family. Um, and to hear their voices and to be a part of the, um, discussion with the youth around what their concerns are their opinions and what their, um their vision is for the future. So, um, I heard about it through my organisation, and I was really excited to come, and it totally met my expectations and more. Do you want to describe your organisation briefly? [00:08:00] Yeah. So, um, I come from an organisation called Village Collective, and we're the Pacific Sexual Health Organisation ministry, uh, funded by the Ministry of Health. Um, our role in the community is to deliver sessions in schools, um, develop resources and, um, engage with the community around education and, um, bringing awareness to, um, how to be safe and build relationships [00:08:30] and so on and so on. So it's, um, a whole lot of it's quite a holistic approach that we have towards sexual health. Um, but it's all about the well being of our of our young people. What you doing? Yeah. Do you find some of your goals at your organisation? Are in line somewhat with this. I Absolutely Yeah. Judging from the topics that were discussed, it totally aligned with, um with what? Our goals are as an organisation, [00:09:00] and it just, um it gave us that reassurance also, that we are going on the right track. Um, from being here at the it gave us that reassurance that yes, we should continue to go in this area because young people still, um, have concerns over this and that and this and that. So, yeah. Is this your first you've been to? This is my first shift to, um I've been to glitch, um, beforehand, which is earlier [00:09:30] this year. But this is my first shift to it. Yeah. Uh, would you like to maybe talk about the differences between the the differences between the I think, um, the glitchy focuses solely on, um, the decolonization of our people, Um, and focuses solely on minorities, Um, within sexuality, culture, background. Um, um, those who migrate here to [00:10:00] the country. So it was a It was just a general. Um, it was it was talking about the general, um, diversities in our in our country and how we can better cater to each of them. Whereas I feel the shift to focuses on, um, our overall community, our rainbow community, and how we can better serve our young people to be the, um, the leading force for our next generation. Yeah, which was what? It's [00:10:30] definitely what I got from the was, um it was empowering our young people to be bigger and better in the future. OK, I live in Wellington and I work in coast at a youth health centre. Um, and I heard about the through a tabby an email because I'm connected to inside out through a database, I guess. And, um, I'll see you all by an email. Why did you think [00:11:00] it was important for to bring yourself here in the background and my job? I have the privilege of working full time as a counsellor, but also, I facilitate, uh, a non hetro social hub, Um, which is, um, where I thought it would be really important and essential to allow these young people an opportunity to meet other people from the region and feel less isolated alone. [00:11:30] And that's why I wanted to mainly bring them. And I wanted to come along and be of value if possible, and my counsellor role to support other young people. So that's why I sort of brought myself as a counsellor and brought the young people for an opportunity to explore who they are. If you were to talk about one thing at this that you found valuable, what would that be for myself as a 30 year old um, coming as [00:12:00] the coun as a counsellor to support young people. What I personally took out of it was a real authentic, an authentic sense of the struggles that young people go through firsthand. I witnessed. And I was a part of privilege to be a part of some really tough, tough moments for these young people, from panic attacks to wanting to self harm, to wanting to give up because of how triggering some of this stuff was in a way of [00:12:30] realising how hard their life feels. And so as a counsellor, I've taken out a sense of a humbled and a wake up call to remind me maybe, of what it's like in action that these young people go through because often as a counsellor, you get you get to see them after the fact after the panic attack or after the self harm. But this was a really eye opening confronting look into what young people actually go through. So that's what I personally go through. Do you want to know [00:13:00] what I think the young people in the group went through or got out of it? Or just me? Uh, you can talk a bit about that, but I would like to hear your own experiences. Mostly No II, I guess for my own. OK, I'll just speak to my own experiences. The other thing I got out of this was feeling like as a as a slightly older young, gay gay person in the community. I felt like I was able to feel a part of something bigger, a part of a community, because I have felt also quite disjointed from the community because of [00:13:30] my own fears and worries. Sometimes so coming here has allowed me to feel connected again in a way of other like minded young adults or adults to have a similar purpose about supporting the people that are coming after us, that they can use some of our wisdom and guidance to heal to, um, get to to find a, to find a path that is authentic, true healing here. Just I guess it's just also [00:14:00] for me about networking, feeling like I've got a place that I fit into as an older person as well. So that was really supportive. Uh, and one final question. If somebody wasn't sure about whether they should go to a or not most likely, a young person, I guess. Uh, what would you tell them? I would challenge all their thoughts around why they don't want to come and sort of sit with that and kind of to to to ring up, to ring up and talk to one of the [00:14:30] organisers of the to have a personal talk or meet them in person and then so you can actually have a chance if you need to. If it's really scary to just speak out some of the worries you've got, whether it's about that you take medication, you don't know if you can take it or I can't eat certain foods or I don't like sleeping in with other people. Speak it out, name it with them because the Hui organisers will be able to help lessen that fear by reassuring you by giving you information because knowledge is power and if we [00:15:00] actually let out our fears, we have a chance to actually see if they actually are real or if it's just us like con con, you know, catastrophizing. Making it bigger than it is in our minds are really good at that. So yeah, just asking other young people that you may possibly know that are going. And if you don't, if you're new to this, just ring up the organisers send them an email, get them to call you back and get them to do their job, which is to support you and making a choice that's safe and being really clear also with some of the things you struggle with so that they can know how to look after you during the because [00:15:30] they will have support of people there. They should have support of people there to, um, to help you through help you through. Um, some of the challenges because that's the point. We're not all perfect. We all have our colourful backgrounds and our issues that we go through. And it's about, um, letting people know how to support so that they can and they will want to. That's been that's what I've seen this that I've just been to. And that's been really rich and amazing. Hi, there. What's your name and how do you identify yourself? Um, [00:16:00] sky, I'm just a trans man and whereabouts are you from, And how did you find out about this? Uh, currently living in Christchurch. And I found out the, uh, via Facebook just randomly posted on Facebook. I'm like, Oh, check that out. Yeah. Have you experienced previous Huy before? I was at two years ago here? Yeah. How did you find this, Huy? Compared to the two [00:16:30] years ago, um, I knew what I was coming in for this time. Like last time, it was going to be a whole new experience. Um, very similar, but a lot less sleep this time than last time. Um, and it's nice to see a lot of younger faces that I haven't met before. How would you find the differences coming in a couple of years older than last time? Um, I feel a lot older than everyone [00:17:00] now. Um, instead of being about the same age as everyone, like everyone hit here. Still in high school. I left high school three years ago. Um, so it's kind of funny to hear them talking about high school, and then I struggle to remember high school. Um, yeah, it's nice passing on the wisdom kind of thing. So they have knowledge, and they have knowledge that is teaching me. Did you make any connections? with many people at this that you hadn't previously [00:17:30] met before. A lot of people I trade when they come not to go and talk to people. I know, Um, because, you know, there's only so much I already know them. Do you know there's kind of that level? Yeah. I already know you. So I'm gonna meet someone who I don't know and actually learn more about them. Um, but it was interesting to hear different people's perspective. Most of the queer stories I've heard have been from white people. Although I grew up in a very island populated area. I didn't talk to them a lot and going through school. [00:18:00] All my friends are white, So getting that kind of side of the story was kind of cool. OK, One final question. If somebody, particularly a youth, was really excited or worried about coming to and they didn't really know what it was like, how would you encourage them? Um, it's one of the most amazing experiences for a young person like you're coming into a space where you're no longer the minority. Like here. Being sis [00:18:30] or straight is kind of the the abnormality, and, um, yeah, It's really supportive space. No one judges you or expects anything from you. You're just you and free to be who you want to be here. I'm Dean, and I'm gay. Whereabouts are you from? And how did you find out about the, uh and I found out about Rainbow Goose. I was asked to come along, um, by one [00:19:00] of the members. Why did you decide that? It was important, Um, because it was about young people about the, um, sort of inspire, like, inspiring communities. So I thought it'd be quite cool to learn about and those other people, stories and stuff. So I thought it would be quite cool to come along and, like, listen to other people and, um, gain knowledge to bring back take back to and you say, take back to Do you think there was anything that you will be taking back to And what might [00:19:30] that be? Um, probably more about, um, sort of different cultures and how we can identify them and work with them as well as, um, different gender identities and sexualities. Um, because there's stuff that I didn't know, and it'd be quite nice to, um, to share what I now know with people who may be questioning your own identities Still coming into this space, Have you Did you know what to expect? Had you been to a before? Um, I've been to the, um, facilitator training for, [00:20:00] um, youth. So I knew a little bit about what they were like, but, um, this is definitely a lot more, um, engaging. There was a lot more happening. Um, more people, quite. Yeah, it was just a lot larger. And there was a and the workshops were a lot more intense, so they're a bit more. Um, it was really exciting. There was so much to learn. If there was one main highlight or example say, like, a workshop or meeting a certain person, What might that be? Um, I [00:20:30] would probably say, just like meeting new people, especially people who had, um, gender or sexuality identities that were new to me And like being able to find out more about them And how they felt with, um, like about, um, with them. And also just like all the workshops in general were really inspiring. Like they just had key features that just stood out. Um, like some of them. I was just, like, learning. Like the way there was discussions around them, like people could like, express like, [00:21:00] express their own ideas and feed into it. And it was just quite nice to like share those experiences. If there was somebody not quite sure about coming to a what would you share about the that might change their mind? Um, the fact that it's so everyone's so equal. Like there's no minorities. Everybody can feel good about themselves and especially who they are without fear of judgement. And they can also learn so much. It's just so much to learn here. Um, unlike, uh, out [00:21:30] in the community when like in your own hometown, for example, there's a lot less to like. It's harder to find information. Whereas here it's all there. It's all in front of you. And you have real life experiences. Unlike going on like the Internet and finding examples that sort of stuff so you can actually see it for yourself. Hi there. Uh, what's your name and how would you identify yourself? Um, my name is Ken and I identify as male. Is this your first? No, I went to [00:22:00] a few years back. Can you maybe point out some of the differences between this and the previous one? Uh, mostly the people like there's a lot less people here this year, but it didn't really detract from the overall experience. It just made it a bit more Feel a bit more like communal. Almost. Yeah. Did you get to make some connections with new people while you were here? Yeah, I made quite a few new friends. It was really good. Could you tell me maybe an example of somebody that you [00:22:30] found some? Something uncommon with, um Well, when we first got here, I ended up bonding over the general awkwardness after the greeting with one of the owners who ended up being the owner of my group. So there was that talking about this. We had so many different workshops and activities and things, and it can be kind of overwhelming. But did you still think you managed to take away something from all the [00:23:00] time that you were here? Yeah. I definitely feel like I managed to take something away like there was a lot of, like, new information just from the workshops and that. But then there's just the general like sense of knowing more people who are in similar situations. And just that in itself is really nice. One like workshop that I really, really enjoyed was the first one that we actually did, um, Morgan's workshop, like on gender and sexuality. That was really, really interesting. And like I knew a lot of the stuff that we talked about, [00:23:30] but there was still, like, a few new things and new terms and stuff that I learned it was really good. And how long do you think that you've been in the community of discussing sexuality? Gender sex? Probably like around 2, 2. 5 years now, I guess, Yeah. Do you think it's an ever learning process? Oh, definitely. Yeah. And one final question if somebody wasn't sure [00:24:00] about coming to a and they didn't really know what to expect. Um, what would you tell them? Well, honestly, for everyone, it's really, really awkward at first, but it doesn't. It takes, like, not long at all to get over the general awkwardness. And you just find that everyone here is really kind and accepting. No matter who you are, they just are kind of there and don't really care. They just like you for who you are. It's really great. There's just an overall sense of community. That's amazing. Hey, [00:24:30] there, uh, what's your name and how would you identify yourself? Uh um, My name is Amy. I'm a Maori Trans woman and a lesbian. And how did you find out about this? Um, Tabby, the organiser invited me to come down to speak on a panel. Um, so that's how I found out about it. And that's how I managed to get all that on to for it. And where did you come from? Um, I live in, so it was a bit of a track down. Have you been to any previous [00:25:00] before? Yeah. Yeah, um, I've been to and I sort of helped out with the, um, organisation for glitch. Um, earlier this year. What are some big differences you found between the who and who? And Glitch? Um, well, obviously, this is a youth. So, um, the demographic obviously, um a lot more young people, which is interesting. Um, it's, like, really cool to see, like, a lot of young people who honestly know, like, a lot more about [00:25:30] like queer stuff than I did when I was their age. It's always really interesting to see that Hui is always a really interesting place to be. Um, it can be a little stressful being away from home, um, with a lot of people who you don't know. But like every time I've gone to Hui, I've always ended up making friends with a lot of people. Um, so I definitely don't think that if you're apprehensive about coming to Hui, I definitely think there's a lot of value in doing it. Are there any, um, awesome connections or moments that you've had at this tour you [00:26:00] might like to share? Um, yeah, just bonding with people who I only knew on the Internet before this and making sick jokes at their expense. It's been really nice, Um, but it's just like we're actually like quite a small country. And so a lot of us sort of tangentially will know each other already. And so I'm meeting up in something like this and going to cities other than my own to meet people who I know but don't live near. It's been really great. Hi there. What's your name and how would you identify [00:26:30] yourself? My name is Maynard, and I would identify myself as a young trans man. Yeah. And where have you come from? I've come from Auckland. And how did you find out about this? Um, I first found out about this, um, from my friend, who is one of the, um, volunteer organisers. Why did you think it was important for you to be here? Well, initially, I was just My friend asked [00:27:00] me if I'd like to come and I I didn't really know much about it or what was gonna happen, but they kind of explained a little bit about what was going to go down at the and it sounded quite swell. And I was like, Oh, cool. But then when I got here, I ended up learning a lot more than I realised I would. So I noticed that you came in a bit late. How did you feel coming in Midway? Did you still feel welcome, or was it a bit different? Yeah, I definitely still felt welcome. Um, [00:27:30] I was quite nervous because I didn't know many people. Um but as soon as I got here, um, I just like I managed to meet a lot of friends, and that was really nice. Did you manage to make it to any of the workshops? Ah, yeah, I did. I went to a few, Um, I think maybe three or four and those were really cool. It was pretty red hearing from people within the community who, um, [00:28:00] like, not only do they identify as queer or amongst the not only are they part of the GL BT Q community, but they also face other adversity. So they still experience challenges within our community, which I found that really interesting. And it kind of put things into perspective for me a bit more. Could you talk about some of those challenges that you heard about? Yeah, I guess. Just, um, particularly people from different cultural [00:28:30] backgrounds. Um, I really like one of the speakers to, um, something they brought up. That kind of, um I found interesting was because they were, um, into sex. And I thought, and just some of the things I said I really believed in and sounded really important, like, um, you know, surgery being able to um yeah, just There were some things [00:29:00] I I was like Wow, that is so true. And I can't believe things are still this way. And we have I don't know, we There's a lot of progression to be made. I guess in all realms and many different realms of and, uh say what? What? How would you describe a to somebody that had absolutely no knowledge but were thinking about coming? Um, I would say it's a really great opportunity not only to meet a lot of different people and make a lot [00:29:30] of new friends, but also to, um, just build, Yeah, No, like you build connections and also you get to it. It kind of, um, like I I'm definitely going to walk away from this feeling really fortunate that I've, you know, I'm in my twenties, but I I'm surrounded by support of family and friends and I. I remember being young and it was really [00:30:00] hard, but at the same time, I don't know, I like personally, I just feel really fortunate. Um, because I think I'm like, compared to where I've been, I'm in a good place now, Um, so I think. But I think it's also, um, it's it's it's quite special to be around people who are a lot like you and also a lot different because, um, I don't know. It feels very homely. And it it's There's definitely a strong [00:30:30] feeling of belonging. I think that comes along with it. Um, my name's James. Um, I would identify myself as gender neutral when you were coming into this. What did you expect? Um, I expected to be entertained. And I was What were some of the things that you thought were valuable [00:31:00] from this that you might remember for a long time? Um, witnessing, seeing a lot of sad youths coming in first coming, probably coming from areas they don't love or families that are completely right and see them completely open up with others was really rewarding for me. If you were invited to another in the future, do you think you would come? And would you, [00:31:30] uh, try to bring others along? That might need it. Um, definitely. If I was available, Um, I don't know who I would invite. Most of the people that I know probably wouldn't come. So if say, you were confronted with somebody that you that was quite young but really wanted to come to the but had some fears. Um, what do you think that they should know about A to kind of like, [00:32:00] let them know that it's OK to be here. Um, I just let them know that there's always support all around them, and they'll be amongst people that are the same as them, or identify with what they're going through and just let them know that it could help them a lot. Um, my name is Jess. Um, I am a trans woman. Um, I'm androgynous [00:32:30] or a butch, Um, which I guess is my gender expression presentation to and where have you come from? And how have you heard about this? Um, I grew up in Hamilton, Spent most of my life there, but I live in Wellington now. Um, I'm Tabby's partner, and Tabby is one of the people who is the organisers. So that's how I heard about it. Have you been to many previous [00:33:00] Hu before this one? Um, I've been to a couple. Yeah, not heaps, but, um, do you want to talk about what they were? And maybe some of the differences between this one and the previous ones? Sure. I think the first I went to was in Tamaki, Um, which was a film, Um, which was It's not Not really a youth who so it was quite different in that way. [00:33:30] Um, and it was more around butch firm identities. Um, and then maybe the second one I went to was which is Yeah, two years ago from now, organised by the same people as this one. I guess it was quite similar in a lot of ways. Um, in terms of being a queer youth, who in the same space as this, um, yeah, [00:34:00] uh, drawing upon all of the workshops that you might have attended all of the people that you've talked to, the connections you've made. Can you think of any examples that you might take away that you might remember for a long time? I think just all of the openness that people have shared shared their like personal stuff. Um, I spoke on one of the panels, which was [00:34:30] I was quite nervous about beforehand, but I'm really happy with how it went. So, um yeah, I guess I feel a bit more better about public speaking since then. Um, yeah, and just I think the the the workshop was I thought it was just really cool. Um, yeah. I feel like I learned a lot from that. [00:35:00] Uh, thank you. And one last question, if there was somebody maybe quite young, maybe not. Um, and they were thinking about coming to a but they were quite worried. They have some fears. Um, how would you describe a hu to them To make them know that it's OK. Um, I'd say that it's just a really welcoming space. It's a space where people don't assume anything about you. Um, [00:35:30] or your kind of participation in in activities is optional. So you can kind of do what you want. Um, yeah. And you'll meet amazing people who will, you know, are really warm and just kind of wanna hear your stuff if you want to share it. Yeah. Hi, there. Uh, what's your name and how would you identify yourself? Um, I'm Jay, also known as Joseph, And I am pansexual. [00:36:00] And where have you come from? I've come from, which is in the North Islands. How did you find out about this? Um, Tabby came to my youth group, Uh, a couple of years ago. And she told me about the one a couple of years ago. And since then I've just been waiting to come to this one as well. So I came to the last one. Um, the last one. Patrick, who are there? Any big differences you found between this one and the previous one? Um, [00:36:30] I was kind of sick, this one. So I didn't really notice a lot of changes, but yeah, it was pretty. It was really good. I like this one as well. There was a lot more people that I didn't know. How would you describe A to somebody that has no idea and is thinking about coming? It's a really safe environment, and it's really, really awesome to make friends and such for someone who's in a diverse in their school and stuff like that. So, yeah, why do you think people [00:37:00] keep coming back over and over because it's safe and it's really fun. And people feel safe here and they can be themselves. Could you describe a bit about why people feel safe in this place like this? Um, people are friendly here, and they don't judge you like they would like other people would anywhere else. So it makes you feel comfortable in being yourself here. Hi, I'm Kate. I am a gender fluid bisexual, and I'm [00:37:30] Abby and I'm bisexual. And where are you guys from? And how did you hear about this? Hoy? Um, I'm from Whitby, part of Wellington region, and I go to school up in college. And so after talking to the counsellors there, I joined into Project youth like the KYS Support group thing. And we got told about this through Andre, who runs Project Youth, and we all came down. So that's how [00:38:00] Yeah, pretty much the same. I just joined Project Youth with Kate and found out about it there. So And I'm also from Whitby. Have you guys been to any previous Hu before? I have never been to a previous. This is my first. This is also my first. So coming into the space for the first time, obviously you've never been to this. And, uh, what were you expecting? And were [00:38:30] your expectations changed at all? I have no idea what I was expecting. I was almost expecting it to basically just be school camp, but full of queer people, which it kind of was it was just the no queer school camp. Um, but it was really great because it got intense at sometimes. It was really emotional, but I really loved it like I wouldn't have changed coming for anything. So [00:39:00] yeah, I wasn't sure what to expect. I wasn't entirely sure why I was even going, but I'm glad I did, because I met so many amazing people. And it was just such a good time. If there was one moment or maybe connection that you've made at the that you think resonated with you that you'll remember for a long time. Uh, what might that be? God, I can't think of a moment, but, um, even just becoming friends [00:39:30] with Fay, one of the, um, people who came here because they're also gender fluid, but they're, you know, owning it. They're older than me and their parent, but it's just it's so cool because it was almost like she was looking out for me. Um, and it made me feel really protected, and they're awesome. So [00:40:00] I'd probably have to say the talent show because we just got such a deep insight into what some people do and how they live their lives and what they're good at. And it was just really cool. Uh, another question. Say, if you met somebody quite young and they weren't really sure about coming to a hoodie or not, you know, they're quite worried they have some fears. Um, how would you describe the hoodie to them? To kind of make them feel like, Yeah, this is something I should I should go to. [00:40:30] Um, I would have to just really say that this is just like a great boating experience, because it can get a bit scary. But I mean, like, we even, like, adopted someone here like a 13 year old gender queer kid and because they were quite scared about coming here. But we adopted them and they had [00:41:00] a great time here, like it was just such a great building experience for like, um, confidence and knowing who you are, like being able to come to this thing and seeing a whole bunch of other people that won't make assumptions about what you are. Do you think that's quite different from the outside world? It really is, you know, coming into a place where everybody else is in some way a minority. It's quite a connection [00:41:30] because out there it's a very cisgender hem of world. I would probably describe it as like a weekend, which sort of creates a community of those of queer people that you can just feel safe with and make loads of new friends and just be yourself around them. It's great. Do you think it's easy to make connections at a um, not to start with, but as soon as, like, everyone starts opening up, [00:42:00] then you just sort of gravitate towards people and it becomes really easy to make friends. And would you guys be down for a in the future? Hell, yeah. Bring me up. That's exactly what I was gonna say. Um, my name is Tan and I identify as vim. That's my primary identity. And where are you from? And how did you find out about the Sui? Um, I'm originally from a place called Rye [00:42:30] Valley in Marlborough. Uh, but actually, I live in Wellington at the moment. Um and I found out about it because I was, um I'm part of the part of inside out, and I was part of the organising committee, so I kind of been kind of known about it since before I'd even began organising. So yeah, um, coming to this. What did you expect? And were did Were any of your expectations wrong, or did anything change? Um, I've been to a few before, [00:43:00] so I kind of knew what to expect. Um, what's different was, um, having, uh, more young people here this time. The difference that made that I definitely noticed. Um, they actually do have to change things up a bit when you have that many people. And so that's a good learning thing. We need to learn for next time, uh, around how to manage that. Um, but it was Yeah, it was amazing. So, I, I expected it to be awesome and intense [00:43:30] and all these things, And it was It was great. Yeah. Um, do you think having more young people brought something new to the in a positive way as well? Yeah, and I I did. And I think another another thing about all these young people is that quite often we have had them previously. A lot of young people, they already know each other, but this was a really big group of people, and most of them didn't know each other. And it was from, um a lot of different places. So that was a really, really amazing seeing, um, seeing [00:44:00] kind of what it's like, um, with a lot of people making friends, um, that they didn't know. And for some people, they come they come by themselves from small places and, yeah, seeing that, um, that was amazing. So having a lot of people here was, um, actually really awesome and having the people from Auckland um, Rainbow, um village, collective and, um, health centre stuff they were. Yeah, Having them here was extra special. Awesome. Do you have a moment or maybe a connection that really [00:44:30] stuck out to you during this time at that kind of resonated that you will hopefully remember for a while? Oh, I, I don't know, because it's like when you're part of the organising committee, like it's so overwhelming that it's like you don't even have time to really think about anything or, like, kind of pick up on that stuff very well until after. But I have to say one of the highlights for me was, um so in the Pacific Workshop. All the workshops are amazing, [00:45:00] but, um, it was started off with an incredible poem, um, or performance piece by Peter. Um, and I just cried like an idiot, and it was It was really phenomenal. And I think, um, I think I was saying to him that it was really awesome having, um because, you know, we all connect, and we all learn in different ways. It was really amazing to have, um, a creative piece, um, around identity and expression and things like that. Um, as part of this because I feel like that is a really important way for a lot of people to connect to these things. Like me myself. Like, [00:45:30] you know, that's what got me ugly crying, like in the audience. Um, but that was phenomenal. So yeah, and one final question, Uh, if there was a young person or an old person and they were really excited about coming to a they didn't really know what to expect. Um, how would you describe it to them? Or dispel some of their fears? Oh, I would describe, like what to expect from a is basically, um, [00:46:00] it's a I think It's a really important, safe space in the way that, um it's a place where, um, people can come and be together, be with people like them and different than them. And it's a space where they can be, um can explore, um, who they are. And, um, they can maybe be able to express parts of that that they often aren't able to or don't feel safe to, um, outside of the space. Um, [00:46:30] and like some key words about who he would be like Like this, Um Oh, exciting. Full on, um, meeting people learning a lot. Um, they are very. They are quite intense. I think I found them quite intense, but I think it's like those things where it's so It's quite full on during the weekend, and then you leave and you're just like, wow, like, once you've had a chance to reflect you like it's it's really, um, special and really amazing. Um, I don't know what kind of myths there would [00:47:00] be about it. Um, maybe 01. A myth is that it is just for, um, queer trends. It's just that it's just for, um, our rainbow community. Um, it's for everyone. um, straight people C, gender people. You know, um, you know, we wanna we wanna offer that space to, um everybody. So that is one Hey, there. What's your name? And how do you identify yourself? Um, hi. My name is Bella, and [00:47:30] I'm a transgender female. Where are you from? And how did you hear about this? Um, I'm from Wellington, and I heard about the because he was like, Hey, would you like to help organise a hue? And I was like, Yes, please, it sounds amazing. And yeah, I know that you've been to previous hui before. What did you expect? Um, coming into this, I just wanted to make sure that some of the smaller things that, um haven't run so [00:48:00] smoothly at other were running a little bit better here. And I think that they were just like, simple things. Like trying to get a more diverse range of workshops and trying to, um, make sure that the topics that we talk about on the same topics that you hear at every single they are really different topics that you wouldn't talk about. They aren't talked about at other. So we like the minorities panel and Pacific Island panel and even the Asian workshop, like those are three things that I don't think I've ever seen at a workshop [00:48:30] before. So that was really good. And I'm really glad that we managed to get that diversity diversity into it. Were there any major key differences between this? Um, I think that for me, this was very, very big. Um, compared to other that I've been to, like, I've been to big, but they've normally had a lot of a lot more funding and a lot more support, like, um, from an organising committee. Whereas with this we had a small organising committee and we [00:49:00] we had a good funding, but we didn't have, like, a huge amount of funding. And so for us to get such a huge turnout, I think is incredible in itself. So that was probably one of the big key differences with this. If you were confronted with somebody, maybe young, maybe old, They had never been to a hoe before. Quite worried. Um, about company about, say, meeting people. How would you describe what it is coming into a Huy and making connections? [00:49:30] Um, I think that coming into a um, you're gonna meet new people. It's just expected. You know, like, you'll sit down next to someone and you just introduce yourself or you'll stand up for food. And food is always a good topic to, like, discuss and or even just like waiting in the car. Park for a is is always like there's always like these small opportunities where you can only just stand there and look awkward. Or you could just say hello to the person next to you. And so even if you're, like, really shy, there will always be someone who's not, and they'll want to introduce themselves. So, um, if [00:50:00] you're coming and you're, like, nervous to meet new people, you shouldn't be because there's always going to be someone who will just introduce themselves to you anyway. And you can build up connections with other people and grow your confidence and stuff. So, yeah. Hey, there. What's your name and how would you identify yourself? Um, hi. I'm Jay. I identify as gender fluid on the A romantic spectrum and polys. How did you find out about this? And where did you come from to get here? Um, I found [00:50:30] out about it through. Um, my, the queer Youth group that I go to called schools out the central group and I live here in Wellington, so I just walked here. Is it your first? Yes, it is, uh, coming into the space. What did you expect? Um, well, I knew a couple of people, So, um, kind of through the group they go to and a couple of people from school, But I don't really know if I had any expectations for it. I [00:51:00] just kind of wanted to try something new and thought it would be a good way to kind of, uh, have a go at, like at seeing what other people would think of me being myself. And do you think that you were able to be yourself at this place? Yeah, definitely. Can you give an example of say, how you were able to be yourself at the, um, just people using right pronouns, Um, and my name? [00:51:30] Because I most people use my birth name outside of, um, just in general, people just call me about my birth name. And so they didn't do that here. Right? Pronouns just cool. Bunch of people who were pretty accepting of anything. Really? Um, and would you be interested in a future? Yeah, definitely. So coming from that, if you were to talk to somebody that hadn't been to a before, what would you say to them if they were, like, really unsure [00:52:00] about whether to come or not? Um, I'd say that it's definitely an experience that you want to have, and it's an amazing group of people who come and it's an amazing environment. And there's really, really awesome workshops that are run. And it's just a generally really cool thing to do and participate in. My name is Rupert. Um, I identify as a queer trans man. And how did you hear about the and where did you come from to get here today? [00:52:30] Um, I heard about the Via Tabby and who I'm very good friends with. And, um, I've been meaning to get up to Wellington, and I've missed the last few. So I thought, Well, I'll kill two birds with one stone, come up to Wellington, see them and attend a a. Fantastic um So I came all the way up from Christchurch. What, come into the What did you expect and were any of your expectations a bit, [00:53:00] you know, Wrong. Um, I mean, I've been to two before. I think so. I know the deal. I know that they're really emotionally draining and, like, super intense. Um, And the past two times have come as a youth. And this time, because I'm 27 and sort of post transition. I really wanted to give back to the you know what the who has given to me. So I chose to go for a, um, volunteer [00:53:30] facilitator slash group leader position. Um, so I didn't really know what to expect, because I, I don't have any experience doing mentoring or counselling or, you know, anything like that. Um, but I'm you know, I like to think that I'm good with people, so I thought, you know what? What could possibly go wrong? Um, I was expecting it to be dramatic. As as I said, they're generally dramatic and, you know, it had its dramas. And there were points where I was kind of like, Oh, my gosh. What have I done? [00:54:00] Why did I choose to facilitate? This is really intense. Like what if something terrible happens? Am I liable? But um, actually, it was basically everything I wanted it to be, and more, um, I made, like, a really strong rapport with all my kids that I was looking after, um, and they gave me some really nice feedback about, like, you know, being supportive. And it was really amazing. And I think despite [00:54:30] the emotional drain, I would definitely facilitate again. Uh, so as a of your group, um, how did you find that role? Like, do you think people liked being in their own groups? Do you think it brought us closer together? I think so. Um, we didn't have a lot of group specific specific activities. Um, which probably, you know, it would be nice. Um, as I think has happened [00:55:00] to other who where we all sit down for a group meal together. We did that a couple of times, and that's always really a bonding experience because there's something about, like eating, you know, eating food with your people. It's a good time to chat and just have everyone together to, I don't know, just make friends with each other. Otherwise, it's quite easy for, you know, individual members of the group to go off and just hang out with their friends from in real life or whatever, But, um, I think my group was really good. We were really close. [00:55:30] Um, Morgan, who was also to with me was really cool. And, you know, we got our pansy power like, um, like, not patriotism pride, you know, flower pride going in. And I think they all got really into it. They were a really cool bunch of people and, like whoever chose those people to be in my group say they did a very good job. Um, if you were to talk to somebody that didn't really know much about who you know, they were really worried about coming. [00:56:00] Um, how would you kind of let them know that it's OK? And how would you describe a Hoy? How would I describe a hoe? Um, if someone was unsure about coming, I would say I was unsure about going to my first one. I thought, I don't really need this. I'm secure in myself. I have queer people around me blah, blah, blah. But it was like a really amazing experience. Um, it's really empowering to be [00:56:30] There is nothing quite like being as a queer person, a queer young person being in a room full of other queer people. It's like you. You never get to experience that ever. Even if you go to a gay bar, you know, it's just generally one kind of person. It's this, uh, like, I couldn't even recommended enough and especially, um, personally, me, I don't know. Being from Christchurch, I have, like, a white middle class upbringing, [00:57:00] and I have never learned much about, like, Maori Protocol or history or anything. I never got taught it in high school. Um, so initially I was kind of like, Oh, you know who I don't know anything about, You know, and all this. So I'm gonna do something really bad or, like, embarrass myself because I don't know anything but it It's so valuable and you learn heaps like pretty much All my knowledge is like stemmed from the that I've attended and learning about all that side of New Zealand and stuff [00:57:30] as well. So I think this, you know, there's no fears. Everyone's really supportive. We're all really awesome people, especially the, um and yeah, they they're structured and they're safe. And this has proved that we can deal with some, you know, pretty what? What seemed to be serious problems at the time, and everyone's come through it really well, and I think everyone's just grown from it. So come to the who is awesome. Um, [00:58:00] I'm Daisy. I'm a CIS girl, and I think currently that I'm an asexuals bi romantic bias, and I'm attracted to all genders. But gender is a factor in my attraction. And where are you from? How did you get to this? Uh, I'm from Wellington, and I got to this because I heard about it at schools out, which is a group I go to, and they said, This is on. It's cool. And I was, like, Sweet, come to this. [00:58:30] Did you know many people? Uh, I knew a couple There were people that I'd met, like last week that I knew were coming, but I wasn't completely comfortable around, So there were people I knew I could fall back on, but, you know, I was kind of Yeah. Do you find that you stuck with the same group or that you were able to make connections in the space? I was definitely able to meet new people like I branched out a lot and half the time the one person that I really knew I could rely on, [00:59:00] I didn't see them for a lot of it. I was like, they were off somewhere. I was off somewhere else. So, yeah, um, those connections that you made, do you think any of them really stuck out and resonated? Say you met somebody, and you're like, Wow, I've never met somebody like this or, you know, you could give an example. Maybe of something meeting somebody that really excited you. Uh, not really. I think everyone in general was just so cool. I was like, This is really awesome. It was really cool, though. Meeting people from different backgrounds, like the people from [00:59:30] South Auckland, Because I live in Wellington, So I don't, um, get to meet people with that with those experiences and hearing about how their lives had been. That was really interesting. And with the workshops, uh, did you attend many of those, uh, all of them? Yeah, that's really impressive, by the way. And also did. How did you find the workshops? Is there anything that stuck out to you about them? Uh, I really enjoyed them. They were really interesting. And again, [01:00:00] I especially enjoyed the ones where you learned about other people's experiences. So what they like the panels on, like queer Asian experiences and, um, being queer and Polynesian and all of that. That was really interesting. Would you recommend a somebody else? Definitely. Like, it's been a really fun experience, and I've met loads of people, and I'm just going away from it like I want to do this again. I really enjoyed it. This is your first, right? Yeah, my first one And say somebody wasn't sure about [01:00:30] going to a they They just weren't really sure. Like, I don't really know what it is. Um, what would you say to them? How would you describe a, uh, I'd say that it's just a place where you get to meet people who are like you, and everyone's really open and supportive, and no one's gonna judge you, like in the outside world. Um, and it's just a great place to meet new people and to connect and hear people's experiences and have a good time and eat nice food, [01:01:00] which is always important. So what's your name and How would you identify yourself? Uh, my name is Lee, and I identify as, um a queer person. Um, and probably lots of other things as well. But I can't think of them right now. Um, yeah. Where where do you live? Uh, and where have you come from to get to this. So currently, I live [01:01:30] in Wellington. Uh, when I was growing up, I lived in Masterton and the, um but I, um I now live in Wellington. And how did you find out about this? I said I'd like to volunteer to help organise it. Uh, so involved with the organising of the, uh Is there anything that you found valuable about that Something you learned? I learned [01:02:00] that Friday night are great when there's fried chips? Um, I don't know. I think, um, I've learned a lot of things coming here, and actually, once the started, I've realised that there are a lot of things that we could have possibly done better, and, um uh, you know, But I think that's something that, um, they'll always [01:02:30] you'll always get things out of and out of things that you do. There are always going to be ways that you can improve. Is this your first? Uh, no. This is my second I was involved in the inside out. Um, that happened two years ago. Um, I volunteered in the kitchen, and I think I took an activities, um, workshop on, like, crafting and crown making. Um, and I really, really loved it. It was the first [01:03:00] time I'd ever heard or known about this idea that there were spaces, that you could come for a weekend and hang out with other queer and minority people. Um, so I really wanted to be a part of it this time. So, having gone to a previous did you have any expectations about this that were radically different? I expected it would run a lot smoother. Um, I [01:03:30] I think my expectations were met, um, in lots of places. So I expected that I would meet lots of cool people, and I would probably learn a lot of new things. Um, and I definitely learned a lot of new things. I think having, um, Pacifica and Maori. Um, and Asian, um, talks was really, really important. It was really important to have them involved, Um, so that it wasn't, um quite so, um white [01:04:00] majority. And it was really important, I think for a lot of the youth to learn these things as well, um that they probably didn't know about, um And importantly, um, as some of the people from the Pacifica panel said that they learned some stuff from us. So it was really good and reciprocal, and we each were able to take away different things. And final question if somebody maybe a youth, maybe not, was really unsure about coming to a, um, how would you describe [01:04:30] it to them? I think is a word that a lot of people assume will be, um, for Maori only. And it's not, um it's a space for anyone to come. Um, there are a lot of people who come and they don't know anyone, and it's really intimidating for them, and they're really anxious. But actually, by the end of it, when we sit down and talk about how we feel, they say, Actually, I came and I was really scared, and I've made all these [01:05:00] friends and I've opened up, and now it's so easy for me to go up to people and and ask how they are, um, and people, um, grow so much. And, um, I would say, definitely. Come. Um, you don't have to know anyone that's coming. Obviously, that's really cool if you do, um, but it's definitely OK for you to just come and everyone makes an effort. Everyone wants to learn new things and meet new people. So it's definitely would be worth your [01:05:30] while if it was possible to come. Hi. Um, I'm Lydia and I identify as a lesbian, and I am gender queer. And where have you come from to get here? Today came from Hamilton. Um, it was a eight hour bus ride. It was very long. How did you find out about this food? I found out about it from which is Waikato Queer Youth. It's a QS A in my hometown. And I also found out about it from a guidance [01:06:00] counsellor at my school at the QS. A. That I run, she helps with it. Is this your first day? For it is indeed. And did you had you talked to anybody that had been to before? I talked to my friend Alex, who is part of wacky, and she's basically just said be ready to be addicted to Hoy, and, uh, you're gonna love it. And I was like, Ok, sweet, but, um yeah, that was it. Really just I just talked to one person about it. There was not many people who've been to please. Yeah. [01:06:30] So looking back on you, pre who and now post who, uh, do you think there are any differences between your whole attitude towards them? Absolutely. Um, I think I understand Alex's view. Um, yeah, I'm definitely going to more. Um, I think like I came with a really, like, unexpected. I didn't know what to expect. So I, I came with this kind of attitude like, Oh, I'll just [01:07:00] take what I can get out of this. And I think it's important. It was important for me to have that view because if I had come, like with a negative attitude I, I don't think I would have got as much out of it. But, um, I think like my attitude towards who of, I don't know, I didn't really have a bad attitude to start off with, So I think it's just really improved and, like, I'll just be an advocate for people like when I'm discussing who, and I'll be, like, totally go to one. And you're gonna love this. So yeah, [01:07:30] before coming to the did you know, many people that you knew would be here. I knew two people, my friend Crystal, who I actually met online. Um, and we bonded over mutual sexuality and, uh, my friend Laura, who goes to wacky. So not knowing many people, Uh, did you find that it was easy to make connections? How did you find, uh, coming into a space where there were so many people that you didn't know? Um, [01:08:00] so I I'm quite a social person. I'm a real extrovert. Um, and I thrive off of social interaction and being around people. So it wasn't hard for me to, um, to talk to other people and meet new people, but I think I like, I don't know. I just kind of, um Yeah, I don't know II. I thrive off social interaction, so I think like talking to people was easy, But like I, [01:08:30] I'm the kind of person who is often, um I'm often the kind of person who starts the conversation, and then people don't really talk back because they're shy and nervous. But I think a lot of people here, um, they're either a desperate for friends or B. They're just as friendly as I am. And, um, they're just intercepting, and they feel comfortable and safe here. So they were able to be like, Hey, um, yeah, totally. I'm gonna interact with the conversation. So it was nice to just be able to talk to anyone and not have to [01:09:00] carry on the conversation because they they did it for me, and I don't know, I guess like that. Yeah, that was that was really cool. You don't find that a lot of in a lot of places. And final question, um, how would you What would you like? Somebody to know? That hasn't been to before. Um, OK, so if you're thinking about coming to a hilly, um, I think just like [01:09:30] come with, like, don't come with expectations, because, honestly, it's a life lesson. It's not what I learned here, but like if you have high expectations for something, it's so easy to be let down. So don't come with high expectations. Just come with an attitude like a positive attitude, because if you have a positive attitude towards what you want to do. You you're gonna find you get positive things out of it like yeah, and also, when you come, [01:10:00] like, come to make friends don't come like, oh, I'm gonna get a girlfriend or Oh, I'm gonna I don't know, kind of just, um, meet people like me like you totally meet people like you, But come like with the attitude, like I'm about to make some new friends I'm gonna make, like, meet new people. And they're gonna understand me like you have to understand that queer people are, like, so inspiring. And it's crazy being put into this the [01:10:30] this the hoe environment Because, um, people outside of outside of this environment, um, can be really shallow and really uncomfortable and make you feel really unsafe. And so being around such a huge group of people, you feel connected to everyone. And I think it's important to remember like you're making friends and you're making, like, family here. And, um, like, know that when you come like know that you're gonna connect with people because [01:11:00] they're just like you and you're all in the same boat. Hi there. Uh, what's your name and how would you identify yourself? Hi, I'm Duncan. Um I'd identify as a pansexual Paki male. Enough. Uh, where did you come from? Um, so I'm the general manager at BU, um, based in Auckland. So I came from there to Yeah, I the How did you hear about the I think I heard about it from [01:11:30] when we were marching in the Pride parade in Auckland in February. And Minister Nicky Kay was there who had literally just approved Tays funding Tay. I'm telling them all your secrets. So have you been to a previous before? I don't think I've been to an inside out before. Um, but I've been to uni and you run a few before, and we back in 2011 as well. Yeah. Um, so coming to Hu with some expectations, uh, [01:12:00] having been to some previous Do you How do you think this one was different? Hm. Um, I think the setting for this was really nice. So I haven't been to It's really nice when you have a which is so self contained like this on a um but it's also really handy that it's like a five minute walk to the shop. Because sometimes people do just need to go and buy candy or the tins of tomatoes. You forgot for dinner. Um, So I think that was one thing that was really different. Uh, I actually ended [01:12:30] up staying in the kitchen most of the time, so I have to admit, coming to the, uh, a lot of us didn't know very many people. Was it the same for you? I don't know. I used to when I was younger, I was always quite. I didn't like going into big groups of people I didn't know. And I think coming here I was a little bit worried that, um the people I did know would kind of be busy doing other things. Um, so I wouldn't have time to hang out with me. Um, that wasn't really the case at all. And I met some awesome new [01:13:00] people like yourself and working together with people on kitchen crew and stuff like that. Yeah, it was cool. Uh, do you think it's easy to make connections at a Yeah, I think it's an ideal space to it, because very we don't often have the chance to just come together and spend time together and build up that I'm gonna try to remember the word between each other, which you kind of need to, um, keep each other in mind and actually, um, genuinely work together [01:13:30] to go forward rather than just like an email being like, Hey, we should do this together. It doesn't really work. Why do you think, uh, we run? Why do you think they're important? And they're important to kind of dispel that sense of isolation, which I think a lot of young people have and what I've heard at the, um, about growing up in their home communities. So sometimes, even if you go along to group once a week and there's kind of five other people there, and you're still kind of living in that he of world, where your parents kind of a bit tense, maybe, and skills [01:14:00] a bit and things like that, where you come to this space, which is really positive and affirming. You see, like 100 other people who all just accept you for who you are. Um, yeah. So it's really good and positive and affirming for the young people. Um and yeah, can build great connections across the country rather than just in your own local region. Hi, there. Uh, what's your name and how would you identify yourself? Um, Kyle And I'm a FTM and also pansexual. Uh, where [01:14:30] have you come from? Palmerston North. And how did you find out about the, uh, through through, Uh, have you been to before this? No, not on, um, LGBT one? No. Have you had you heard about who is before? Yes, Um, what did you know about them? And maybe How did some of those perceptions change when you finally got here? Um, I knew they were great big get togethers, Um, and obviously thought that would be a good idea, [01:15:00] but I didn't actually get around to planning to go to one. and I thought it was really good. And, um, I was surprised by the diverse amount of people here. Like, I didn't realise everyone would be reasonably well represented, which was quite good. Did you get to talk to some people at the that you didn't wouldn't usually get to talk to in your everyday life? Yeah, I would definitely say so. I mean, um, in Palmerston north, it's quite small. So there's a very I wouldn't [01:15:30] say a small trans community, but a small, out trans community. And along with that, quite often, it's, um, less common for people to be, um, open to dating more than one particular gender as well. So, yeah, it was quite good to to meet people that were like that, and also people that were a lot more fluid because that's not as common either. Did you make it to many of the workshops? Yeah, most of them. Except the last day, which was naps. Um, [01:16:00] how did you find them? Was there anything that stuck out to you that you'd like to share? Um, hm. I would say, Say just everyone's different inputs. And everyone's, um, unique perspectives. Yeah. Are there any of those perspectives that you thought like real positively about? Ah, I really enjoyed, um, some of the Pacific Islanders, um, perspectives and how [01:16:30] their culture was different to ours. And, um, how, um, their third gender isn't like, frowned upon as much and and things like that and how they are a lot more aware of, um, differences in gender and stuff. Then I suppose the Western World originally or and its history has been, um, And final question, uh, if you were to hear about somebody that wasn't sure about going to a hurry, they were quite nervous. And things like that, uh, how [01:17:00] would you describe it to them? Um, very open. Very diverse and very welcoming, I would say. And not a problem for shy people. Hi, there. Uh, what's your name and how would you identify yourself? Uh, my name is Soul, and I identify as a trans guy. Yeah. And where have you come from To get to the I came from, Uh, how did you find out about the, [01:17:30] um I got an email about it and where I work at, so it came up on a few websites and an email got sent around all the workers. Sorry. Have you been to a before? Um, yeah, I've been to a before, but not one like this or organised purely for, um, like diverse sexualities and gender orientations. Yeah. Uh, So, [01:18:00] coming into the space, how was your What was your initial reaction? Um, I thought it was real good. It was just No, it was not. It wasn't like forced like people weren't forced to get to know each other. It was more like, gradual in your own time. And it was really cool to see, um, that being, like, embraced and just letting it run somewhat of a natural cause. Um, do you find that [01:18:30] it's a welcoming space? Did you Was it easy for yourself to make connections here? Um, yeah. I found it was quite welcoming, and it was real. I felt easy to make connections just because I could relate to a whole of things that were being talked about. Or, um, I thought about what was being talked about previously, Uh, could you maybe give an example of something that resonated with you? Um, I have [01:19:00] a few friends who struggle with, um, religion and their, um, sexual orientation. And they're trying to find, like, a balance between that. And I found listening to the, um, panel about, um, like and all that real interesting to see how the sort of dual worlds cross and that they've found a balance for themselves. They quite [01:19:30] happy and confident. Did you make it to many of the workshops? Yeah, I made it to all of them, except one because I had pretty much done it before, so yeah. Did you, um was there anything spoken about that you hadn't really discussed before? That you've I thought was important. Um, I think talking about, um, again was real interesting because it's [01:20:00] not mentioned, or people don't really know it exists or it's around or they think that and kind of new terms, but they're not, um, and a lot of people don't know the history behind it. So I've had that. It was real good that that was brought up. I'm just hearing more about, like, the minorities with the minorities with the minorities was quite good. Yeah. And, uh, final question. If somebody wasn't very sure about coming to a they'd never been. [01:20:30] They were quite nervous. Um, and they asked you for some advice. Uh, how would you describe it to them? Um, massively welcoming and a big eye opener. Um, And to go there with, like, an open mind and just go with the flow. Um, yeah.

IRN: 882
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/shift_hui_2015_sexuality_and_gender_workshop.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004357
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089651
TITLE: Sexuality and Gender workshop - Shift hui
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Carl Greenwood
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Carl Greenwood; Family Planning; FtM; HIV / AIDS; InsideOUT Kōaro; Love Your Condom; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand Needle Exchange Programme; STI; Shift hui; Shift hui (2015); Tapu te Ranga Marae; Wellington; binary; binding; bisexual; bottom; coming out; discrimination; education; gender; gender identity; health; health education; identity; internet; medications; needle exchange programme; non-binary; pansexual; polyamory; polysexual; pregnancy; queer straight alliance (QSA); religion; rural; safe sex; school; school counselor; seroconversion; sex; sex education; sex toys; sexual health; sexuality; social media; stigma; support; testosterone (T); top; transgender; youth
DATE: 17 April 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Tapu te Ranga Marae, 46C Rhine Street, Island Bay, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast hui participants take part in a workshop on sexuality and gender. The hui ran from the 16 - 19 April 2015 at Tapu Te Ranga Marae in Island Bay, Wellington.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: OK, so welcome, everyone. Thanks for having us. Um, come and talk to you. And hopefully we're gonna answer your questions. We've already had a quick look, and there's some there that I think, uh, you can probably answer better than us, so we'll hand those ones over the floor. So my name is Zaha. I'm from family planning here in Wellington. Um, with health promotion. And this is our panel, So I'm just gonna pass the microphone along and they can introduce themselves. Oh, hi. [00:00:30] I'm Carl Greenwood, and I used to work for NZIF. And now I work for needle exchange. Hi. My name's Rose. I'm a nurse, and I work at family planning in the clinic And Margaret Sparrow Centre in Victoria Street. Hi, I'm Marica. I'm a health promoter for family planning. So first question, I'm a female to male trans guy. Do I still need to get smears? So I think I'm gonna pass this one on to Rose. [00:01:00] Well, first of all, um, I'd just like to tell you all that I actually have a trans daughter-in-law, so that's not the reason I'm here. But it's just kind of interesting, because I never expected that to happen. And, um but it doesn't mean I've got any expertise, any particular expertise? So if what I'm going to say about that is that if you've got a uterus, you still need a smear if you've got a uterus and a cervix, because if you all know that you have a smear because of the risk of cervical cancer, [00:01:30] and you pick up that risk whenever from early on in your sexual life. So if you've got risk for cervical cancer and you've got a uterus and you've got a cervix, hopefully it's accessible and you'll need a smear. Thanks, Rose. OK, um, I'd like to ask about people and how they should approach coming out. So, Carl, would you like to respond to that in the first instance? Well, only in the first instance, I think coming out is you need [00:02:00] to gather support around you. You need to find like minded people. So you need to maybe talk to someone, um, a counsellor at your school. There might be a a group, um, or another youth group in the region in Wellington. There's schools out, but that's only in Wellington. Um, but there is QS a groups all over the place. But I think the biggest thing is about finding support for for yourself, so that [00:02:30] when you get hard times or you're trying to talk to your parents, that you've actually got other people to talk to who understand and can support you, it's. But there must be other things to add to that. And also, we're quite welcome to have comments from the floor. Is there anyone else who would like to kind of and part some wisdom around this one for people? No, I just wanted to say that like, um [00:03:00] well, sometimes with the QS A is not exactly helpful. I mean, sometimes some of us actually can't even go to those because, like in my school, I can't do that. Yeah, everyone that, like spreads rumours, goes to it so no one can go to it anymore. Um, I think, yeah, in those situations, it's It's so hard, especially if you're in a a rural area. Um, I think I guess we're really lucky that [00:03:30] there are also such great online communities that we can, um, turn to. So there's some great New Zealand resources and Facebook groups and things like that, Um, which are an option if you literally don't have a support group near you or don't have anyone, Um, that, you know that you can can turn to but, um yeah, I guess as as Well, just maybe, um, someone you think who might understand it. Um, just sometimes it's good to to try to try and trust someone, and often you will get a really [00:04:00] good response. Would it be possible at all to, you know, put something up somewhere for the next few days that people could add, like online places they found that are really kind of useful and helpful for people? 0, 800 numbers there. There's one there. So, yeah, there's yeah, sometimes just about having a bit of a google around and finding what's what's out there. I just want to say [00:04:30] sometimes it can be really hard, especially if your family is religious and does not necessarily condone being homosexual because of the religion. But the important thing to remember is that lots of people of the same religion do act, are actually OK with it. So it's not necessarily what I'm trying to say is that, like, just because your family is overly religious does not mean you can't confide in other people who are religious because everyone has a different attitude on that. [00:05:00] I think just tell somebody that you know is gonna be cool with it, or you think that there is a high of being cool with it because it's hard, I think, and also with the people that are close to you. But if you've got some support behind you, then it's a lot easier from that point. Um, and 11 thing. One thing a lot of people kind of overlook, I think, is that coming out [00:05:30] is essentially it's a subjective process and you've got to come out for you, not for other people. OK, next question, and I'm going to get Mara to answer this one for us. What's the difference between buy pans and Polly and mostly pans and Polly buy only a little bit pans and Polly? Mostly, um, I guess I can kind of give my understanding of those identities and then maybe open up for the floor [00:06:00] if anyone wants to add something to that. So my understanding of buy is around being attracted to men and to women. Um, and some people see that as Yeah, we can add more. Um, some people see that as somewhat of a win term. Um, my understanding of Pan is being attracted to people of any gender that not necessarily like it doesn't really matter what the gender is of the person. You may be attracted to them anyway, Um, Poly, [00:06:30] my understanding of that is more around. Whether you would just be interested in some kind of relationship with one person at a time, or whether you're open to sexual and or emotional relationships with more than one person who would like to add. I see someone who would like to first I I kind of a loud voice. OK, so I'm non-binary and bisexual. I see bisexuality as being attraction to the same gender [00:07:00] as yourself and other genders. Pansexual is being attracted to any of the possibility of being attracted to any gender and poly sexual rather than polyamorous. I think you were going polys is kind of being attracted to many genders, but not all genders. For example, Um, I'm attracted to all women, all more binary people, [00:07:30] but not many men. Yeah. Thank you. Well, um, personally, I identify by, but I am attracted to non-binary people. And I think, um, for me, Pan is more like gender isn't a factor in your attraction. And I think some people see it as that Some people see it as all genders. But for me, gender is a factor in attraction. So I go with bye. You know, it's, [00:08:00] um I think what you said was really, really, um great and exactly what I was gonna say. Um, I would just add that, um yeah, I think there's so much stigma and, um, kind of myths and stuff about what the word bisexual means. And it's, um yes, I think it's a really, I think with all all of these identities, it's something that can be really personal to us, and we can decide what that means for us. Um, but I think, Yeah, there's been often a lot of talk about bisexual being an identity that is about the binary [00:08:30] and male and female and not being inclusive of, um, people who are who are non marry or gender queer or transgender. But that is not the case. That's not the history of that word. And There's so many people in the Trans and Non-binary community who use that, um, identity of bisexual as well. So I think it's really important that, um, we don't label bisexual as this binary term because that's not what it is. But it's awesome that we also have other words, like pansexual and poly sexual. I tend to think of pansexual as sort of more like, um, [00:09:00] you don't really like care what gender they are. You sort of just like you. Basically, it's kind of like that person is just you just like them. You don't really think of it as like a gender thing or any other sort of thing. You don't really care about like, Well, really any of the main, um, McKees. It's just sort of like I like this person. It's That's how I think of it as is. It's just I like this person. Not for any particular [00:09:30] reason. I just do. Um, my, um, sister is the pan. So, um, from her understanding, she told me that, um, she basically likes, um, a person for their personality, not by their gender. I just wanted to put that up, OK, Can you have Oh, No. Can you use vaginal condoms for anal [00:10:00] six? Yeah, the answer is yes. I'm sure. The thing is, is it working? Is it staying in one piece? Um, the thing is, these things they're not tested in that situation in a sort of scientific way to say, you know, we know for sure in the in the literature that we know this is OK, but you know, from practise and from doing it that it probably is fine. It's like it's a bit similar to the question. Can I reuse a vaginal condom? Know, Because lots of settings [00:10:30] where they're hard to get And that's all women have. Um, so they wash them and reuse them, and that's that's probably OK. You just need to inspect it afterwards. OK? Uh oh, this might be one for Carl. So So what is HIV? What is a DS? What do they mean? And what are the differences and how do they hurt us? Wow, [00:11:00] it is. But it's also the question I get asked the most. What is HIV and what is a IS? And what's the difference? So it's, um HIV is a virus. I'm not going to give you the big long name because it's, you know, a big, long name. Um, it's a virus that is contracted through blood and semen. Uh, it is also in tears and saliva, but on such microscopic [00:11:30] amounts that you can, you really only catch it from blood and semen. Using a condom stops it, which is the main way. It's it's really in New Zealand. It's it's It's an epidemic in the gay community because it's easily passed on through anal sex. Um, sometimes if you go to the doctor, they'll say, Take a suppository, which is putting a pill up into your anus and why they say [00:12:00] that is because the pill will be absorbed straight into the bloodstream. And that's the same like with HIV and semen. If it goes into the anal passage, it will be absorbed straight into the bloodstream. So then you're left with a virus that you have to live with. At first, it, um, you'll just live your life normally, and it won't have too much effect apart from when you see a convert or be getting like a case of the [00:12:30] flu. But then, as you live longer with HIV, what it does is it attacks your immune system so it slowly hammers away at your immune system. And it depletes your immune system to the point that where things that your body would naturally fight like shingles or thrush or, um, diarrhoea, um, stomach problems. Um, [00:13:00] just things like that that your body would normally, um, be able to fight off the flu. When you've got no immune system, then your body can't fight it off, and then it starts having sort of this effect of running you right down so you so you don't have the ability to lead a normal life. You lose energy, you can lose weight. And, as I said, you can get, you know, really bad diarrhoea and stuff when you get to a point with the [00:13:30] with the virus. So you've lived, say, with the virus. I'll give myself as an example. I lived with the virus for 10 years, and it was only HIV at that point. But then when I got so crooked that I really couldn't cope anymore, I actually ended up with an AIDS diagnosis. So it's not it, it's the virus. You've still got the virus and nothing changes. But it's what happens within yourself to give you an AIDS diagnosis. It's because your body can't fight anything anymore. So [00:14:00] what happens is, then you've got an AIDS, Um, maybe have an AIDS diagnosis. And for me it was in 98 and I went to the doctors and there happened to be medication. My, you know, I think my lucky stars there was. So I started taking medication, and six months later, I'm just living with HIV. Now I haven't got AIDS anymore. I only had AIDS for about a six month period of my life, but because the drugs that I took and managed to fight off all [00:14:30] the opportunist small infections that I had and pick my immune system up, I then came out of an AIDS diagnosis. And for the next 10 years, I've just been living with HIV. So today in today's world, actually, we're almost entering an era where there should be. We should be not actually getting a DS and really, an AIDS diagnosis means that someone's lived too long with the virus without getting diagnosed, so their their first diagnosis is [00:15:00] an aid diagnosis. And then what we'll do is they'll go on medication and then they'll just come be coming back to being HIV positive again. So that's sort of the difference between HIV and A. I DS, um I think that it's still a horrible thing to live with, whether it's full blown AIDS or HIV. And now I am on a twice a day, um, pill taking regime that I have to adhere to 95% of the time. Otherwise, [00:15:30] the virus will mutate and become, um, resistant to the the pills that I'm taking and so that that's quite a a lifestyle thing that you have to take on board. Um, around HIV I could go on for ages, but actually, is there any other questions here? Um, I think I've summed up the questions. So has anyone else got something they'd like further to know around HIV? I just kind of, um, would like to know [00:16:00] So, um, when you're on this medication, um, how so does it? Pretty much, um means that the virus is at such a low level that it's not affecting you like I mean, not in any way. That's that's absolutely true. It just doesn't really affect me. I mean, I have to say We don't know what the long term effect of the pills are. We don't know what the long term effect of of living with HIV. Um, there's not many people [00:16:30] who have lived with it for 25 years and are still here, So actually, there's a There's a whole lot of stuff we still don't know. Um, there's been articles around kicking your immune system and so young in life. What's the long term effects of that? Um, I think there isn't any stats, but I know from anecdotally from friends, there seems to be higher rates of things like diabetes, heart problems. And I think a lot of that is the medication is quite toxic. And we say we don't know what the long [00:17:00] term effects of of the medication is. No problem. What are a couple of the biggest myths you hear about the biggest myths? Um, yeah, well, I mean, the sad thing is that I think that outside of this world, um, the fact that, um, how you catch HIV is still [00:17:30] very much a horrible myth out there. People are still incredibly wary. I think if there's people who who don't have all the information, they'd still be a bit paranoid about drinking out the same cup of me or kissing. Or I think those things are Miss that, aren't there? What about others with miss? Yeah, definitely. The kissing thing is like, you definitely cannot get it from kissing. I kiss [00:18:00] Carl a lot. It doesn't happen. And, um yeah, I, I don't know. And I think there's sort of, Well, maybe the one about, you know, like, kind of I think, you know, because it is so managed these days that people think, actually, sometimes I think people think it's hard, quite hard to get. It's harder to get than it is, You know what I mean? And it's kind of gone away in some way. And also, I think the other big myth is it's no big deal. You take a pill a day. [00:18:30] It's no different from being a diabetic. Um, I think that's a huge myth out there that actually needs to be well squashed because it isn't. It just can't be compared to anything like that, and it still is a big deal, and I think when people get a diagnosis, even if they know that with medication, and they're going to live a pretty reasonable life. It's still incredibly devastating to people to find out that they are HIV positive. And it's often really pain hard around forming [00:19:00] relationships with with being positive. It really causes problems there. Makes it difficult. Should I say, can you, um, let people know about how I'm getting tested and, um, good on? Yes. Keep yourself tested. It's a really good thing. I think knowing early works is the is the answer for me, it was better to deal with it at the beginning and be aware of it right the way through [00:19:30] than just get it, then. Just waiting till I really was sick and you can get it. Foundation. They'll do rapid testing at NZ a centres around the country over the back here. Um so have you encountered like people shooting it differently? Um, no. Well, I don't know. Yes, of course I have. And I think the saddest [00:20:00] thing I was when I was early diagnosed um, I had real problems with disclosure. I found it really hard to tell someone that I was just meeting that I had HIV. It was like, almost you're saying I want to have a relationship with this person, so I need to tell them straight away. And actually, you might have met them a couple of times and then gone. Oh, I really quite like you. And so you told them. And I've had quite a few people walk away at that point because they are like, Oh, no, you should. And I've had people actually get angry with me and told me You should have told me before we [00:20:30] even had sex And nowadays I do. But when you're first diagnosed, disclosure is incredibly difficult. And it's a really hard thing to do. And especially if you meet someone out and you're having a good time, you know you're gonna ruin the moment by by by telling them that. So, yeah, that's that's probably the most the one, the one that hurts the most other people. I really don't care, because if they if they have a problem with it well, I I'd rather they didn't make the effort in making friendships. [00:21:00] OK? Oh, I was just going to ask, Why do you think, say, at high school six it we get taught all the STD S or the STIs. And then when it comes to HIV AIDS, I don't remember anything. I remember the name I don't I never actually knew what it was until I went away and did my own research when I was, like, 18. Um, that's sad, really, isn't it? I mean, it is just especially [00:21:30] in the 21st century. I mean, you think that in basic sex education they would talk about HIV? Maybe they I mean, did they talk about anything gay, or was that sort of almost like we only talk about the mainstream stuff? I'm not sure. Um yeah. Going in terms of prevalence rates, is it, um, is a i DS are the are the levels of, um, [00:22:00] AIDS and HIV going down? No, they're not. They're going up. And the reason being is that, um well, one of the reasons through the eighties and nineties, I think people were getting infected as fast as they were as they were dying. There seemed to be a cycle of it, and there was so much death. But then, once the new medications came in, the death rates completely stopped. But the infection rates seem to still be going up and part of its actual [00:22:30] mathematics. They say 2% of those who who are positive reinfect that 2% is just getting bigger and bigger as the pool of people increase every year. And so and there is and we're keeping everyone alive and healthy. So unfortunately that we're doing pretty well in New Zealand, Um, other countries are doing, you know, comparatively we're doing well, but the numbers are still increasing. Yeah, I think those numbers are also maybe increasing [00:23:00] because there's a lot more awareness around it as well. So more people are actually getting there. Be loads of people that have been living with it, and they've never, ever had a test. They say there's another third on top of those that know who don't know who are. Yeah, they just don't know. Um, is it contracted only with gay couples? Um, no, it's definitely it's heterosexual. It's it's [00:23:30] It's sex. It's passed on through semen and blood. So sharing a needle is a is another way of contracting HIV. But no, it's, um and I think, why the emphasis is on gay community because it's a numbers game in the gay community. It's considered an epidemic where in the straight community those numbers haven't got so high that it's considered an epidemic. But it's still it is definitely in the heterosexual community. That depends where you live. [00:24:00] In some other countries in South Africa, it's not considered a gay disease. It's just rife throughout the whole community. Um, my question was kind of, um, similar. Like around that. So with with the, um, kind of percentages that we're looking at, uh, are we looking at still, um, like comparably a much higher rate of, um, say, um, men who have sex with men? Um um contracting [00:24:30] HIV compared to straight people? Or is it is it kind of has that changing at all? Um, it's No, it's it's staying relatively similar, and the numbers are sort of there's slightly higher, even just on numbers of gay men. I think there's something like 100 and 20 a year, and we're looking at 70 in the gay community and the others dispersed between heterosexual white, African and, um, IV [00:25:00] drug users. And isn't it true that the biggest growth is in, um, heterosexual women? The numbers are growing bigger in that group, and the numbers are smaller, but the growth is bigger. Yeah, OK, thank you. Ok, um where can I get free? Um, prop prophylactics or condoms [00:25:30] to your left. OK, so but outside of here, where can you get condoms for free? So any you people will know, I'm sure. So, um yeah. Sexual health clinics. Absolutely. I think there's some sort of app, and I've seen it before, and it just shows you where you can get all the free condoms [00:26:00] that Ah, that would be right. Yes. Is that the same? Um I mean, um, with other, um, safe things like, um, dental dams and gloves and things like that, are they? That would be the cheapest place to get them. Absolutely. Which is not super cheap. But you can order them all over the country that way. Um, there's a website and everything that you can [00:26:30] go on and like, um, it's an anonymous website, and you just write in, like, a name or something, and they just send you like a brown package that just has a whole tonne of problems in it. Not use it to see my friends, condoms and love. Your condom does that on their website, too. If you go to LYC website and hit the button, they'll they'll post them out to you. Um, you can also get free condoms from your local needle exchange. [00:27:00] Yes, you can. OK, I'll just have to put my glasses on now. Hm. OK, this is one. Maybe for Tabby or for you guys. Actually, why do you feel it is important to have this workshop? So te te asked us. I think these workshops are always good because it's just about passing on information so that, actually, you guys [00:27:30] can then pass on information to your networks. And, um, that's that's how that's the best way of getting messages out. There is word of mouth II. I still say that. Yeah, Um, just on that, I think it's really important that we have this workshop because, um, speaking for myself, and I know a lot of people, um, sex education, in schools and from other sources really don't cover properly. Um, [00:28:00] the kind of like information that, um, our community needs, um the like, the specific stuff. And it's actually I think it's really important. Um, because you can't just, um, not educate people and assume that they are gonna just be able to educate themselves or that that information is going to be available. And it's just really, actually really hard to come by. Um, yeah, I'm very passionate about this. [00:28:30] It's really good if you're not necessarily out. So you don't want to put up your hand and make the teacher like I need to know this This and this I am. It's really such a great point. Yeah, I also like I've noticed that quite a few of the people here are a lot younger than, like quite so many old old might have been when they first came out or whatever. So they're going to be in an age group where they're actually starting to get taught this at school. And so by having this workshop, and it does come to, they are, [00:29:00] if they are books about whatever, um, they'll actually have the knowledge to do it safely and, like, maybe some didn't quite know, because they I think it's really important that, um, we have workshops like this. And then we also have classes within schools because, um, I come from a sexual health organisation. We do, um, six year classes in school because the art teachers can't do it themselves. No shade. Um, Also because, um, a [00:29:30] lot of what our young people are learning about sexuality and sex are through their friends. They're not from teachers, they're not from these classes. So, um, these workshops and these classes are really important to eliminate the what they've put in the playground and actually give them the facts. And also, I think some parents and teachers think that because we teach them about contraception, that we're encouraging them to have sex when really, we're just giving them the tools. Like someone said that if they want to in the future, they can, Yeah, [00:30:00] And the link on to that is like we're we're Children of the Internet. We have been brought up with the Internet, So it's not really It's like, if we don't know something we're not going to, like, look up an almanack. What the hell it is we're going to be like, we're gonna go and find out for ourselves because not only Children, but we're independent as well. I think it's like a rising thing is that if we don't know, we're gonna ask the Internet and the Internet is full of Well, there are some. Excellent. [00:30:30] Ok, I just love this next question. I think standing here waiting to read this one out. So how? Oh, this is so good. How do I tell my partner how comfortable I am with sexual stuff? Great question, huh? Yeah. So what do you got? What what? What do you people think about this one? So how do you tell someone how comfortable you are with sexual stuff? [00:31:00] Yeah, I think with regards to relationships being open and having that communication is the most important thing. And if you can't, if you don't feel comfortable telling your partner that that you are or aren't comfortable with something that kind of that that feels like a weakness in your relationship, to be honest, what if you're sleeping with someone? OK, thank you. Yes. If you're close enough with your partner that you're considering [00:31:30] something sexual, then you should just be able to say straight up what you want and what you don't want. OK? Yeah. So we just just point out what if you are only just sleeping with someone and it's not a relationship? Ah, ok. Yeah. So in that instance, How do you get comfortable in kind of saying what you're comfortable with and where your boundaries are? You know, if it's not necessarily AAA relationship, you know, you just sort of it's more casual. [00:32:00] So, I, I have, um, a question like, I've heard you can do this. Like, what do you think about it? And so, like, yeah, toads came and you, like, sweet. So am I. Um, but if they're like, oh, I don't know, it's kind of weird. They'd be like, Oh, we could talk about it or just, like, drop it. There's no point being like I want this now. And they've been like, Oh, my goodness, I couldn't handle that. [00:32:30] It's really in my boundaries. Like like no. And then you've just made them uncomfortable. You're uncomfortable. You don't know what to do. Yeah. Yes. If you're in a relationship with somebody, like a long term dating relationship or whatever, Um, you're gonna talk about that stuff, do it when it's not in the sexual environment. It's a lot easier to have that conversation. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's great. Oh, sorry. I think that was pretty much it, but yeah, I feel like if you're in a relationship with someone that, um maybe if [00:33:00] there's things that they're asking that you're not comfortable with, maybe you're not ready to go there yet. And that even, maybe just with sex, especially if it's a serious relationship. And I think if it is a serious relationship, they'll respect your views anyway. And then they'll wait until you're comfortable or if you're not, you can just be like, No, it shouldn't be a make it or break it, But so it's kind of telling you something about where you're at. And I guess also, if it's casual, then just tell them because you know it's casual. If not, it's better to be safe with what you you like. [00:33:30] There's plenty more people. If it's casual, I mean, not that, But, you know, just like you know, if if it is casual, then you should be able to say I like it And they said, No, you're like, Thanks. Thank you. Um oh, my friends actually heard like something like that and everything and what they did was they sort of sat down and they just, like, talked and both said what? Um what each other was, like, interested in and what they were uncomfortable with. And then they pretty much [00:34:00] just you can chose which ones they could tolerate and made, like their own agreements about it. They pretty much just made a business deal with each other. Can I just add something to that as well That there are actually these kind of, like, somewhat geeky kind of sex communication websites out there, which have, like, premade lists of like, here are all the different things someone might think of doing sexually. And you tip like, yes, no. Or maybe so you don't have to say like, Oh, this Oh, do you want to do this thing right here on [00:34:30] the list? You can be like, Oh, it was just on the list in the first place. Like it wasn't my idea. But are you interested in that? Maybe I am, too. Um, I've been forgetting to pass. I just really like I was gonna say, it's kind of following on from what, um, Morgan said, um, that because I feel like we don't We really don't get taught how to have these conversations and around consent and things like that. Very Well, um, and I feel like if you're feeling a bit nervous about it, like a good way is to be like instead of being like I like this blah, blah, blah it to be like, what do [00:35:00] you like? And to kind of open the conversation up to give them a way to come to you and share it, And then it kind of becomes reciprocal. And it's like if you start that, if you're not just like, this is what I like. I don't like this. Like opening that conversation up by asking them is really important. And if you feel comfortable to do that, it's a really, like, really awesome thing to be like to do for both of you. Yeah, great. Thank you. Yes, I think also being able to give people permission and space to say no or that they're not [00:35:30] sure. Not sure it's a really big one. And being able to check in in that in that kind of case, um, also, I guess, making assumptions about what sex is so like, Obviously assumption in terms of men who have sex with men that Oh, you know, you hear a lot of people like, Oh, what do you do? You do, like, have anal sex or whatever, and that's just like everybody's understanding of a norm who is generally straight right. And they have this idea of sex. And I think there's also ideas about what sex between [00:36:00] women or sex between. OK, not many people have ideas about what sex between non binary people looks like because not many people know about non binary people, but kind of being aware that sex looks different, Actually, and what feels good is different to everybody. And that's OK. And it's normal and, um and yeah, and also being able to have a conversation that it's just about, Yeah, I think it's given permission. So if you're saying actually, no, I'm not really into that, but we don't take it personally about each other. It's not a rejection. If somebody's like, I don't [00:36:30] like it when you touch me there or I really don't want to do that sexual act. It's just that it's not right for that person. And we don't have to take that as a as a personal rejection. It's great. Thank you. Yes. Um, you got the microphone. Oh, sure. Why not like, um, one example I have is, like, when you like, sort of a casual stuff, or even if you're in a relationship, Um, And like the gay community, one of the big questions you have to ask is Are you a top or are you a bottom? Because that's sort of like the one thing [00:37:00] that you either get asked or asked to please in a comfortable situation. Otherwise, you could end up being in the bedroom and all of a sudden end up in this awkward situation where you're like, Well, who's going to do what now? And you don't really want that. And so yeah, and that's and so it's like that Prem communication, um, stance to it. So yeah, right. Thank you. All right, OK, next question. Binding help. So [00:37:30] who can help us with this one? I? I don't need that. I gave. I don't need that. But what What? Where do I start? It's such a Basically the best way to bind is with a binder. If you can't afford a binder, there are things like sky thing. Very trans trans gear. Um, I'm not exactly sure of the whole details of that um, but also, you can [00:38:00] use, uh, layer sports bras as another safe way to bind. Never use, uh, bandages or, uh, duct tape or anything that's not flexible, because you will mess up your breathing and you will mess up your ribs and it will hurt. Like, um, also another thing. I'm really guilty of doing this myself. But don't wear your binder for more than eight hours at a time. Don't wear it overnight. I know that having boobs really [00:38:30] sucks sometimes. But messing your boobs up enough that you're not gonna be able to get top surgery one day would suck even more. Thank you. I just wanted to say like duct taping really hurts. Don't do that. Yeah, no, no duct tape, No bandages. Just Just OK. Downtown. Yeah, [00:39:00] it's a week, right? Oh, right. So sometimes binders aren't accessible. So what can you do about it? Talk to me. I actually set up an organisation to do this fruit blenders into the country because they're ridiculously expensive to source. And no one in New Zealand actually makes them so. I got in contact with little big comment overseas and asked, What can I do to [00:39:30] bring her into the country. So I'm now, as far as I'm aware, the only person in New Zealand who actually has a large quantity of them, and by and large, I mean over 200 at the moment. Um, there's several different sorts. Um, I don't even know when it's not. OK, so is this one of the most common ones that people wear? It's really small. Or is it small? [00:40:00] Um, that it's This is the most common one that comes out there. Uh, it's got two compression layers. 033 in the front and one in the back. Um, so it kind of it squashes everything around. Um, you can get these in a full length as well, Like literally past Where busy. So long. Sometimes. Um, like this one. This is a really old ancient one that's kind of died. [00:40:30] Um, but yeah, they eventually do stretch out and become pretty useless. Um, they're really tight to wear. Like you can't actually comfortably breathe most of the time, and you've got a brand new one on they do stretch out. Um, I don't in, uh, encourage people to do physical exercise with them because you know you're literally constructing your lungs wearing one. Yeah, basically, I [00:41:00] sell them at the price that I ate. For how much is that? It varies. The cheaper ones. Uh, $10. The more expensive ones that I've got at the moment are about 50 of the one in the shop. Uh, the smaller ones we bring in the Asian side, so they're literally made for really quite small people. Um, I've got them up to a four XL. So that's, I think, about 100 and 50 centimetre chest. Um, and if you're outside [00:41:30] of those, we can get a lot more business card on the table on this. Yeah, it just comes in a little white postage bag. OK, so we've gone well over our time, So we're just going to, um we've sort of been through the questions, and Tabby's taken some that that, um, other people will be able to answer. And we're going to quickly kind of just go through some of the the questions that have got a more clinical aspect, [00:42:00] and we'll answer those for you. And Carl is going to sneak off. So thank you very much. Carl, I think, um, OK, So, uh, so this one I'm going to hand over to Rose. So can trans guys get pregnant from someone? If so, uh, from someone with a Penis, have he is on T and periods have stopped. I don't really know, but but But what I was gonna say is, in any situation where there are sperm [00:42:30] and a cervix, you know, someone can get pregnant, you can never say it won't happen. And this happens even, you know, with people who are heterosexual, there are assumptions that you can't get pregnant for all sorts of reasons, and you can never make that assumption. So you've always got to treat it as if it could happen unless there's some absolutely definite word from somebody who knows some clinical person who knows that the the [00:43:00] way things are in your body, that it can't happen. And the next question, which is so can I get if I use a towel with semen on it? Probably not. It depends what you do with the towel, right? Yeah. You can probably use a towel to try and get. You know, if you want to do it that way, you could have a go it probably wouldn't work very well, but, you know, it all comes down to Does the sperm get into the right place? Yeah. [00:43:30] You if you're not having anal sex but doing other sexual stuff, what are the risks? And I'm and I'm gonna I'm gonna assume we mean the ST I risks here. So, um, Mara, would you like to, um so buy other stuff That could mean a whole range of things. Um, that could be talking about oral sex of any variety that could be talking about, um, touching each other's [00:44:00] genitals. So for SDIS, the risks really have to do with either skin to skin contact. Um, and usually that's genital skin. So not so much kind of someone's hand to someone's genitals. Not really any risk there, but skin to skin contact of genitals or if any fluids have been exchanged. And that can include, um, semen or vaginal fluids going from somebody's body to somebody's mouth as well. So in those cases, there are risks for STIs. Um, they can be [00:44:30] a little bit lower than other types of sex, but they still exist. Um, and that would be for skin to skin contact around things like herpes and genital warts. And also chlamydia and gonorrhoea can be passed in non penetrative ways as well. Um, anything you want to add to that, Rose? No, I think you're pretty well covered. Just and last, but certainly not least sex toys. So, um, and how to use them So we don't have [00:45:00] enough time. And there's loads of different loads of different sex toys and loads of different ways to use them. And maybe that would be something you want to talk about after dinner. Um, but I would just like to say, Well, a point that I would just like to make about sex toys is that actually, if you're using them with multiple partners, there is a risk of transmitting STIs so [00:45:30] that they are like a body part. So, you know, you you can use condoms on them and just make sure you give them a good clean. Ok, thank you all very much for having us.

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TITLE: Glenda - Butch on Butch
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VOICES: Glenda Gale
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 1920s; 1950s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Aro valley; Australia; Butch on Butch (exhibition/series); Carmen Rupe; Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Christianity; Circle (magazine); Gene Pitney; Glenda Gale; Jac Lynch; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Lower Hutt; Melbourne; Mojo's (Auckland); Naenae College; Naenae Intermediate; National Gay Rights Coalition; Project Employment Programme (PEP); Royal Oak Hotel; Salvation Army Citadel; Tavern bar (Royal Oak Hotel); The Drag Kings (Wellington); Tighe Instone; Vance Vivian; Wellington; Women's Refuge; activism; adoption; ageing; butch; clothing; coming out; cross dressing; cufflinks; dating; divorce; domestic violence; drag; drag kings; effeminate; employment; family; feminism; gay liberation movement; gender identity; grandparents; harassment; homophobia; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; hospitality; identity; lesbian; lisp; love; mincing; nightclub; parents; parties; passion; performance; persona; police; public transport; queer; relationships; school; siblings; social; social welfare; solo parent; sport; stereotypes; suit; talent contest; teaching; ties; twins; violence; women; wrist flapping
DATE: 12 April 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Lower Hutt, Lower Hutt, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I grew up here in lower heart. I haven't lived here the whole time. I've come back after living in Wellington City for quite a few years. I come from a very different kind of background, probably to lots of people. I was born in 1952 so things were fairly conservative in 1952. Um, and my mom was a solo parent, so I was brought up with my mother and my grandmother, and I think that is probably a really, um an interesting view. I mean, eventually, I think my mother thought that was the reason I was a lesbian. Um, [00:00:30] I've not really I don't really subscribe to that, But perhaps it made me the kind of lesbian that I am II, I don't know. So you feel that your, um, background of your mother being a solo parent in in the 19 fifties? That was pretty unusual. Um, I think it was really unusual. She was a very interesting person in that she wanted to have a child and she had a relationship with somebody who was married and decided to still go ahead and have a child. My mother was a very determined person. And when she decided she wanted to do something, [00:01:00] she did it. And she was a very strong person. She had people like social welfare coming and suggesting that she give, um, me up for adoption or I was a twin, actually, and, um, give us up for adoption, and she just told them where to go. And she was 29 so it wasn't like she was 15 or 16. So in the end, they just left her alone, and she got on with it. Um, my sister actually only lived a few days after we were born, but, um, that was, um, Yeah, I think that might I. I always think that has something to do with [00:01:30] it. You know, What is it like to be, um, you know, in a womb with another little being, and then you come out and that little beings gone. I don't know what that means, but, um, I always think these things probably will take a toll or or help to build bits in us. So your grandmother was supportive of your mother's decision to have, um, Children eventually eventually, Um, my grandmother, um, also in 19 twenties, divorced, which was very unheard of. She was in a very violent relationship. She had [00:02:00] three Children, and then she left that marriage. And then she had my mother, um, to somebody else. Uh uh. Um and my mother actually doesn't know who her father was. And so we have this really quite interesting, I think little family thing going on, and and I think that was I think that that was an implication for how things panned out. Eventually, when my mother found out that I was a lesbian, she was totally devastated, even though she had chosen to live right outside of what way that most people live. [00:02:30] But she really was upset about it. And I have always felt that I I'm perhaps, and this is just me thinking about it that I had the ability to bring her into the mainstream by becoming a mother-in-law by becoming a grandmother, and I didn't do it. Uh, that's just my vision of this, But so I, I sort of I think for me, these these family things are really important in who I am. Did you ever get to know your father? Um, I met my father on a few occasions. [00:03:00] Um, it's really interesting because we look amazingly. He's dead now, but we looked amazingly alike. He had three Children, other Children, and, um, I have, uh I still have a older sister living, and we met officially about 12, 13 years ago, and we have a really nice relationship, and we see each other regularly. Um, and, uh, that's that's really lovely. And your mother is still alive. My mother is still alive. She's just about to turn 92 and she's in a rest home. And, [00:03:30] um, I've found myself being her drug dealer, delivering her cigarettes and her daily bottle of beer and putting bets on the the horses for her things I never thought I'd see myself doing, but I'm doing them for her. I love that. I'd love to be that old woman one day. Um, So you grew up in the heart. Did you go to local schools here? Yes. I went to, um, a number of primary schools. I went to nine intermediate and I went to college. And how was how [00:04:00] was college for you? Um, I don't think I was a fan. I mean, I was a good kid. I was a studious kid, but, you know, I wasn't academically the sharpest knife in the drawer. I would say, um and I always felt different. I mean, my identity. Um, even I didn't have a word for it. I. I was aware from a very young age, perhaps even as young as five, that I was interested in other girls and not boys. So I think that was always a little bit different. And as you get older, people notice more, and I think that set [00:04:30] me apart a little bit. I think, um, um, maybe I was just a nerd. I don't know. I certainly hung out with the nerds, the nice nerds. Did you have girlfriends when you were young? Um, my first, Uh, I mean, I had girls from, you know, that I was in love with from probably at least certainly 10 years old. I mean, you know, great passions all the time. That was very common. Um, but as a an actual relationship, I had my first [00:05:00] relationship when I was still at high school just before I turned 18. Tell us about how that came about, um, a bit complicated, but I had some school friends over to stay. And, um, I stayed up all night telling to pluck up the courage to tell one of them that I liked one of the others and she said, Oh, so do I. And, um And then she this woman then proceeded to I suppose, um, pursue me and actually start a relationship with me. And and And it was it was all from her side at that point. So [00:05:30] that was how it all started. And how did that finish? Um, we were in a relationship for five years. It wasn't an easy relationship. And, um, in the end, I made the decision not to stay in it. And she made the decision eventually to go and get married and have Children and things. Yeah. What what age were you then? Uh, when it finished? Um uh, I suppose about 22. Were you living at home or No, no, no. The the the first sort of year [00:06:00] of the relationship. We lived at home, and then we sort of escaped and and went and worked in hotels and lived out of home for a while. And then we went back. And then my girlfriend's mother found out and she called us over and asked us, Are you having a relationship? And we said Yes. And she said, Well, you need to go to me. You need to go and tell your mother And I said, Look, my mom, um, I will tell my mother I'm going to but she's not ready to hear this yet. And this woman said, You've got five minutes So we lived across the road [00:06:30] from each other, So I went over and told my mother in tears, which is not what you want to do, and it would never been the way I would have approached it. And my mother really went to pieces after that, and eventually this woman, um, apologised to me and she said that she should never have done that. I mean, from the point of view that this woman had eight Children, my mother had one, and it was really devastating, and and it caused a terrible rift in my mother and my relationship that went on for well, I think it's always been, it's it's played a part in damaging it, ongoing, but certainly for the next [00:07:00] 10 years, really bad. So what did you do then? Once you had this, um, reveal to your to your mother. What? You couldn't come home, could you? I I left home. I stayed with a school friend for a little while and, uh, was over the school holiday sort of university holidays and things. And then, um, my partner and I and my girlfriend, we moved out and we got a flat. And that was Yeah, things were rocky for a long time after that, with with my mother. Did [00:07:30] you know other lesbians, then? Um, at that point, I did know someone when we moved out, but it was interesting. Um, that, um this woman and I, you know, we were about, what, 18. At this stage, when we first get together, we go to Carmen's Coffee Lounge because we know about Carmen's, but we don't know where you'd find anybody else. And we were sitting there and these two women came up to us and they were a little bit drunk and they said, Oh, you they come up And they said to us, Are you lesbians? And we said yes. And they said, Oh, so are we and we'll come back this time next week [00:08:00] and we'll take you to a gay bar. And we thought, No, they won't come. They're drunk. They won't never remember. But they did. And one of those women was Tiggy, so I'll always be very grateful. I've already told her that I'm very grateful for her for that. What sort of year was that? Maybe 70. 71? Yeah. So tell us a bit about Carmen's coffee lounge. How that was so. Carmen was was a very well known perhaps notorious drag queen in Wellington, and she had a number of businesses. She had a strip club, [00:08:30] and but she had this coffee lounge, which was in Vivian Street. And I think the Salvation Army Citadel now pretty much sits on that space with this. With this was and it was a coffee lounge. To me, it was just a coffee lounge and run by a wonderful drag queens, and we would go there and be totally fascinated and look at them and and we used to go all the time, and they were very good to us. I was quite and I not not naive but innocent, but I took people pretty much at face value. My [00:09:00] understanding is there were other things going on in that building, and I sort of knew about that. But I just saw them as these amazing beings, really. And, uh, other, um, once I got to know Tiggy, I met other women, and we used to go there quite regularly and you'd walk in there and they'd all Hello, girl, How are you? And you know you Oh, this is great. And and people straight people used to go there a lot and sort of almost be there, sort of, um, being tourists. But we always felt that that was we were safe. And I remember one night, um, I was with a group of women and this guy [00:09:30] grabbed me and he brought his fist back to punch me in the face because he thought I was a gay man. And I said, and I cringe now a little bit, And I as he was about to bring his fist into my face, I said, Oh, do you usually hit woman, do you? And his arm dropped down, his mouth fell open, and then two very large drag queens swooped on him and took him outside and he didn't come back. And I love them for that. Where else did you go As lesbians in town in the seventies, Um, the Royal Oak Hotel. So there [00:10:00] were a number of bars in there, and the one that I used to drink and, um was the bar. So the tavern bar was largely it was a mixture of lesbian and gay, lesbian and gay men and probably largely white collar workers in the sense of teachers, nurses, um, office workers, things like that. And then there were a few other bars in the building that had entirely different populations of people. And that's where the oaks is now. Yes. Yeah. So that was quite an amazing It was a place [00:10:30] you were told. Don't go. Don't go there. Don't go there. Of course you went there. It was very exciting. And Friday and Saturday nights particularly. And what would happen is that, um there would be circulation of saying Oh, there there will be a party somewhere. And after that, we all went off to this party, and that was sort of life for a number of years. And I can remember getting dressed up to go there I think it was mainly actually Friday nights that we went there. So, you know, this was an opportunity to get all dressed up, hop on the bus. I can remember [00:11:00] at this particular time living in, so I have to get on the bus and go down there and I mean, I. I was quite flamboyant and looked quite different. And I think that a lot of, uh, women in particular who drank in that bar, even if they liked me were quite uncomfortable about how I looked. How did you look? I certainly would say I was cross dressed, but in a very, um Well, for example, uh, there was a men's outfitter shop in Wellington called, and I went [00:11:30] there, and I got the most wonderful cringe. Now, I haven't even got a photo of this, uh, a cherry red knit safari suit. Mhm. And I had a wonderful lace shirt with attachable lace ruffles at the cuffs and down the front. And, um, at that stage, I, uh I suppose II I at that point, I got picked up by the police and thrown out for being under age there. I mean, I would have stood out [00:12:00] anyway. Um, and I must have been 20 because the drinking age was 21 then. So, uh, yeah, this terrible suit. I mean, shocking thing, but I thought I looked wonderful. I certainly stood out. Did you get harassed at all Publicly? Um, not a lot. Um, as I say, and Carmen is nearly getting beaten up, but it was because they they thought I was a gay man. And there were a number of occasions walking down the street where gay men approached me because they thought I was a young gay man [00:12:30] just because of how I I looked, you know, I was so prone to wear lace and and it was very interesting. The first queer people really that I knew were drag queens. And I developed a persona, which was I can't describe. It is totally queer. So I when I walked, I minced. And when I talked, I flat my wrist around and so it's no wonder. And what will I wore that people often must stop me for a gay man? And it was just That was the identity I took. And it was seemed quite natural [00:13:00] for me. So you were hanging out with drag queens and lesbians and gay men socially. Um, the mix Pretty much, Yeah. Although things, like often our parties, some of them were mixed, but often they were lesbian. You know, lesbian and gay men had separate parties, but there were definitely mixed parties. Yeah, so that was in the seventies. Were you working or at university in the early seventies? I was at teachers college. I was at Teachers College, so, um, it seemed to work, OK? I mean, you had to be [00:13:30] a little bit discreet, I suppose going at going to work and things. Because in those days, uh, when I was at Teachers College, for example, when you went out on teaching section, women were not allowed to wear trousers unless it was a trouser suit and the guys would get sent home if they didn't have a tie on. So it was quite strict. Really? So, um, yeah, but still managed to get through it, all right? As a child and a young woman, Were you more likely to be wearing trousers and so on than dresses? Um, a mixture. In fact, [00:14:00] in my earlier teenage years of 15 and 16 I. I used to. You know, when I went to the pictures and things, I had sling back shoes and I had my hair teased and I used to have hair spray on my back, But at home I would often be cross dressed, so I don't know. I mean, I think my my natural attire has always been towards what you would say a butcher style, even if it was with lace and things. But that was Yeah, definitely. Um, I. I always had that, um, leaning. [00:14:30] But But at a certain period, I didn't care about wearing dresses and things. I did wear them. I didn't hate them. But once I got to a certain point, um, I suppose when I came out and after that, I don't think I ever wore a dress Seriously. So did you get involved in the feminist movement in the seventies? Um, eventually, Um I found it really quite interesting because I can remember when it all started to happen. And I can remember being accosted by women and saying to me, Why do you wear a shirt and tie [00:15:00] and things like that? And I got really, really angry about that and for a while that was a really a no no. And then eventually, I suppose, when I got involved in more feminist things, many of the feminist women then started to put shirts into famous lesbians, started to put shirts and ties on, and it kind of became I don't know what it became, whether it became cool or whether it became this is a symbol or something, I don't know. But at the very beginning, I certainly I did feel set upon. I can remember writing an article, uh, a story, [00:15:30] actually. A little story for Circle magazine. It was called something I. I can't be a lesbian because I, you know, looking at what was being said a lesbian was I felt I didn't fit most of those things. What were they saying? A lesbian was certainly not wearing a shirt and tie, you know? Certainly not. And, um and I suppose in those early days, some of that stereotype of the sort of more uh um, not everybody, but there was that sort of slightly earth mother look of long dresses and and things like that. And that certainly was not me. [00:16:00] No, but I mean I think, um, fashion for want of a better word did change within the, uh, lesbian feminist community. I think we we all changed. So you went from Teachers College to to what I went teaching. I taught for a couple of years, and then I went overseas for a year. Then I came back and taught for another year and a half, and then I gave, gave it away and, um decided that I wanted to do something else. And in that time, that [00:16:30] must have been the late seventies. And there were lots of interesting things happening. I was living in the Arrow Valley, had a little cottage in the Arrow Valley, and there were lots of other lesbians living in the Arrow Valley late seventies early eighties, and that was a very exciting time. I had a year off where I I didn't work for a year. And that was the most marvellous time of people just dropping in for cups of tea and lots of discussion happening. And, um yeah, and there was always something on dances across ways or this or that. And it was it was incredibly exciting time and some really amazing things that people [00:17:00] did. I think what was some of the things that were making an excitement was that it started some of the I don't know that refuge and those sort of movement movement started around the then there was stuff like, for example, there was the, um, government PP scheme for workers, and I was lucky enough to get two of those. I got one where I worked, um, as a volunteer coordinator for the women's Refuge, which was really nice. I I learned a lot, uh, from that, and and and really enjoyed working with people. [00:17:30] I was sort of trying to coordinate volunteers, and I also did a bit of work on putting together a Children's sort of playroom at the refuge. And then the other one was, um I had a job for the I got a job PE P for the National Gay Rights Coalition, which ended up with me, um, painting a room purple, uh, in a building where they had their offices and and making a beginning at sorting documents and papers which would later become [00:18:00] Gans. I don't know that I was so good at that bit of it to be very honest, but, um, but certainly it became a drop in centre and lots of people came in and talked, and that was exciting. And did you start getting involved in the homosexual law reform? Um, activities I did. I think I'm someone. I hate meetings, and and I'm just not good at them. And, you know, like people I really respect all those people who sit there and they write, um, all sorts of things to send to parliament and go II. I just can't do that. [00:18:30] It's just not me. Um, I my preference would be, and I did. Some of it was to go and talk to groups of people, whether it was a church group or whatever it was to to I've always believed putting a personal face to things. So one of the things that I did, um, was to write a letter and send it to everybody. I could think of that I knew, explaining that, you know, there was a petition going around trying to sign to stop this law being changed, and that when they read that and when they were considering what they were going [00:19:00] to do, they needed to understand that they knew at least one queer person. And that was me. And I sent those out to people. I taught with people. I knew even my Ex-girlfriend's parents. I sent it to lots of people and and that that was the sort of thing I had some fun one day down on Lampton qua where the people had the petition. So I waited quietly in line, and when I got there, I grabbed several sheets of them and then I stuffed them down my trousers and the two people who were, um, doing the petition [00:19:30] a man and a woman. They grabbed me and they just about broke my arms and towed my arm right up behind my back. It was very, very Christian of them. And, um And then, uh, they called the police and the police said that I had to give it back and I warned them that they didn't. If they touched me, I'd have them for assault because I'd stuff them down my trousers and I got it out, and I tore it to pieces before I gave it back to them. So those sorts of things felt felt good to do, but, uh, but the thing around and I've always done that. I was involved earlier, also in gay liberation, and I went out. I can remember [00:20:00] that we went to the police college. We went to other groups to talk to them, and and I've always thought that that was a really valuable thing to do. I I somehow it doesn't always work, but a but a 1 to 1 or a group to group where, you know, you're staring eye to eye at each other and you're telling your story. Um, even if it only affects one person, it's worth it. Totally worth it. So that's more that's always been my more my way of doing things rather than you know, writing things or [00:20:30] I. I gave a few, did a few speeches, um, there during the homosexual law reform one of the big marches. II. I spoke at that. So you know, um but I I for me, it's always I like it to be pretty personal. Yeah, So I know that you started performing at some point in this, Um when when were you when were you getting on stage and entertaining the lesbians? Oh, I know. I got on stage much earlier than that. I was at high school the first time I ever. I used [00:21:00] to do this thing as lots of people do. And lots of the people in the drag kings did. You know you got your radio going or your record player going and you got your hairbrush and you've got the mirror and you're prancing around singing into the hairbrush. Well, I used to do that. And then when I was at high school and I can't remember what year it was, what? Whether I was it wasn't my third form me and possibly fourth, possibly fifth. And we had a talent contest and I decided I was going to do this. My mother really was concerned about it, and I think she was concerned that I might get a really hard time. But I did [00:21:30] it and people loved it. What did you do? Um, I think I'm trying to think the first one I did a couple. The first one was, um, Georgie Fame, Bonnie and Clyde. So I was dressed up like a gangster and I had a plastic machine gun and things like that. And the other one I did um was a Burlington Bertie from Bow. So my mother bought me a tail suit and top hat, and I did that. Um I'm trying to think I can't remember who sing it now. But anyway, it was a woman. It wasn't a man singing it. And actually, So [00:22:00] you were lip syncing along to it. Lip syncing. Yeah, absolutely. And people loved it. I was quite surprised, but yeah, what were some of your other personas? Um, I can remember doing a Beatles one, but it was just me doing it I I did. I did one of those That was a bit more unusual. So, uh, and I I later went on to do Gene Pitney, but I don't think I ever did that at school, but I But I wanted to do things that were a bit more expressive and [00:22:30] a bit more queer even before I had the words for it. But I somehow knew to be very careful. So I think Bonnie and Clyde was kind of a weird little song, you know, it was exciting and people being shot and, you know, and Billington Bertie was Julie Andrews' voice. It wasn't a male voice So I think people sort of did look a little bit sideways, but I kind of got away with it. But they weren't the songs that I really wanted to do, not really. So when you were, um, with the drag queens and obviously they would be doing some performances, [00:23:00] did that? Did that sort of inspire you to do more I? I thought about it. I mean, when my first girlfriend and I left home, we went and lived in Auckland and we used to go to this drag queen show called Mojo, which was on Queen Street. And I have to say they were some of the most amazingly talented and beautiful people, uh, on that show. And I used to think about that, and I used to think I could do that. I'd like to do that. And when I was in Wellington, I knew that stuff happened at Carmen's Balcony Club. But my [00:23:30] problem was I knew that there was a lot of stuff that came along with that sort of performance. You know, II. I just understood that the world that it was happening in was probably not the world I wanted to live in. I think that was part of what you know, uh, would would have stopped me perhaps pursuing finding out I wasn't the sort of person that wanted to be in a nightclub, you know, till two or three in the morning, Doing that sort of stuff. III I It just Yeah, I just didn't have the, um, not personality, but it just wasn't who I was. So I don't [00:24:00] think it was ever a possibility, for example, for it to become a a career or anything like that, Uh, as, say, with the drag queens did. Yeah. I think that life would have been too hard for me. So, um, I think a lot of people listening may have heard or seen you being Gene Pitney. Where were some of the places that you would have been doing that performance? Um, and that was quite interesting, too. And and And lesbian and the lesbian clubs. And, um and it was sometimes controversial. [00:24:30] And I'm just trying to remember the one performance that I did. Um, I can't even remember where the club was Now. It wasn't the Wiggin Street Club. It was somewhere down Courtney place. And, um, I think It was a club that was there for a while, but not not long, long. And, um, some people sort of said they just didn't understand it. Other people loved it, you know, And and And I mean, it is a really weird thing for lesbians to do, isn't it? I mean, you know, we dress up as as, as as male characters, and we [00:25:00] lip sync to male voices. Or sometimes we do female, but often to male voices. And and And some women just love it. And I sometimes get very confused by that. I'm not sure what that means, but I've decided not to worry about that. But but But it is. But some people watching it got very confused by it. They didn't understand what this was about. Why would we be doing this? Did they? Over time, people sort of got used to it, and they they would see you at various things doing this and sort of maybe understand a little bit better. [00:25:30] Yeah, I think I think so. Um, it was very interesting when I was was actually with the drag kings and we went on our show to Melbourne. I contacted somebody that used to live here that lived in Melbourne and told her that we were coming and that we were doing this show and I got back this very rude email from this person. I wouldn't be coming to see something like that. OK, OK, it's just fun because the drag kings um, I think we've been going a couple of years and we kept hearing from people [00:26:00] who were your your fan, your fan club say you, you've you know you've got to get Glenda involved. I mean, she does, Jean. She's been doing it since, you know, long before you ever got on stage and and I think you joined the Drag Kings for about a year. I did, and that was a wonderful really time for me. We were having a bit of a laugh earlier about ageing process, and I was what early fifties then I felt really old compared with everybody else and actually was quite hard keeping up. I have to say, but it was such a neat [00:26:30] opportunity. I mean, I'd always been a solo performer, perform by myself and in some ways that's easier. And so it was a pretty hard learning curve to learn how to do all the steps with everybody else. That was really hard. Um, but it was a wonderful opportunity. And I just felt that, um um you don't get those kind of opportunities very often. So I decided I needed to say yes. Finally. And it was was the best thing to do. We were wrapped anyway, and I think I was, um, remembering that at the time you [00:27:00] we we all knew that you were around 50. And we just thought it was incredible that this 50 year old would be getting on stage with us. And now I've turned 50. Of course. I don't think I'm half as nimble as you were on stage. Do you do any performing now at all? No, not really. III. I would never say never again, But probably not. I don't I don't know. Um you know, I haven't given away all my costumes and stuff, but but But probably I sometimes think [00:27:30] you have to know when to stop as well, You know, it could be a no, but it could be embarrassing, You know. You know all these comebacks that people do, It could be a worry. We take that on board. Thanks, Glenda. Glenda, you were involved in the Butch and Butch photo exhibition. And, um, uh, we took your photo of across the road, um, in the church park opposite the national Library. And you're wearing a gorgeous [00:28:00] suit at the time. Can you? I think that's a special suit for you. Can you talk about that? Um, it's, uh, the The jacket and the waistcoat are from an Indian wedding suit and I. I bought that from a little shop in Newtown. I couldn't buy the trousers because there's no way I could fit into them. Um, but, um, I wanted So I had an occasion to go to, and I wanted something that I could relate to, but something I didn't want to wear an ordinary men's three piece suit or something. That was not how I anymore. [00:28:30] And it's not what I want to wear. There was a stage in my life where that's all I wanted, but that's not what I want. Now. I like something a little bit different, and I looked and looked and couldn't find anything. And then I found this and I thought, Yeah, that's what I want. And, um, so I really I don't have a lot of opportunities to wear it, but I wanted to wear it because I think it reflects, uh, in a formal sense of me getting dressed up. I think that's pretty much where I am at the moment. Uh, I, I like that. Well, it's not so far away. Um, from from the Red [00:29:00] Safari suit and the lacy shirt. I mean, it's totally different. It's a lot better. Um, but it But it's that's that's a part of me. And I think that I talked about it and what I wrote to say, um, you know that I've I've had a sort of on again, off again sort of relationship with this term, and what does it mean? Um, but, you know, I've always really had my hair cut really short. Um, I love ties. I love cuff links I have done for years, and I and I think this is important. I only felt comfortable wearing earrings [00:29:30] and bracelets when men and gay men in particular, started to wear them, probably in the nineties or something like that. So, something going on there something to do with character and and there's this and there's always been this little queer part of my character. You know? Um, you know, I said, I used to walk around and I lied and I had a little flapping wrist. I don't have that anymore. But there is a little bit of that residue that's left. And I'm told, if I get very excited or, um, II, I get really involved in something that I do start [00:30:00] to have a little lisp and sometimes my wrist flaps and people laugh at me. So I feel like there's a little There's a little there's something there. II I I've always thought of myself, really as an effeminate lesbian because, you know, the term Butch, it conjures up whole lots of things and even some of the other women who have taught I've heard the interviews and things, you know, they talk about their sporting careers and fabulous things like that. I hated sports, you know, I couldn't a lot of the things that you might think stereotypically are about being butch. [00:30:30] Well, I'm sorry a person will be very disappointed with me. Absolutely. I mean, I'm the one, you know, if we have visitors. I'm the one that's rushing around wanting to tidy the house. I'm the one today that went in the garden and got flowers and put in because I was having a visitor, you know, and I'll be the one that tidies the cushions and things. So that's yeah, it's It's an interesting little thing. I have no interest in sport whatsoever. Can't fix anything. Um, you know, so, II, I still [00:31:00] don't really understand what Butch means. Why did you want to be in the exhibition? Well, when I heard that you were wanting people to ident who identified as botch in some way, When I thought about it, I thought, Well, I do in my way.

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TITLE: Paul profile
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VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1940s; 1950s; 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; ACON (New South Wales); AZT; Aldo Gennaro; Angels in America (play); Ann Wigmore; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Ava Gardner; Body Positive; Brinley Newton-John; CD4 count; California; Canada; Chez Ivy's (Sydney); Christian Dior; Christianity; Christopher Isherwood; Continuum (magazine); Derek Jarman; France; Germaine Greer; German; Gosford; Grim Reaper (advertisement); HIV / AIDS; Jean-Paul Sartre; Kelver Hartley; London; Marcel Proust; Marlene Dietrich; Melbourne; Morocco; Māori; New York City; Nina Simone; Paris; Peter Blazey; Pneumocystis pneumonia (PCP); Proof of the Pudding (NYC); Purple Onion (Sydney); Rex Cramphorn; Richie Havens; Roy Cohn; Rudolf Nureyev; Salvador Dali; Simon Townsend; Spain; Stonewall Inn; Stonewall riots (1969); Sydney; Sydney Gay Solidarity Group march (1978); Sydney Mardi Gras; Tangier; Tasmania; Theorem: A Dream of Change (film); Timothy Leary; Tunisia; United Kingdom; United Nations; United States of America; University of Newcastle (Australia); Vancouver; Vogue (magazine); Warialda; Wellington; World AIDS Day; World War 2; activism; addiction; ageing; alcohol; alcoholism; alternative therapies; amphetamines; anti-AZT; anti-medication; arts; ballet; bisexual; books; cannabis; caregiver; civil rights; closeted; complementary therapies; countertenor; creativity; cruising; dance; death; death wish; denial; detoxification; disability; drag; dream; drugs; education; elder care; elder issues; elders; equality; family; farm; fate; film; food; fortune telling; free spirit; french; gay; growing up; hasheesh; head prefect; health; health system; hitchhiking; homosexual; hospitality; indigenous rights; interfaith; kaposi's sarcoma; labels; law; life force; love; marriage; masturbation; medications; minority; modeling; movies; night sweats; nightclub; pansexual; passport; past lives; personal ad (newspaper/magazine); photography; police; poofter; pornography; reincarnation; relationships; rural; saunas; serendipity; seroconversion; sex; sex addiction; sex work; sexual revolution; ships; spirituality; support; theatre; travel; trick; university; values; venues; violence; virginity; wheatgrass
DATE: 12 April 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Paul talks about growing up in Australia in the 1950s, sex work in New York City, cruising Rudolf Nureyev, serving beer to Marlene Dietrich, modeling in Vogue and being HIV+ since 1983.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Paul in setting up this interview, Uh, you emailed me a couple of your thoughts in terms of what you may want to talk about. And you emailed me saying, Do you want details of my dysfunctional family selling my body on the first avenue at New York City, dancing with Nina Simone in a Sydney nightclub, serving beer to Marlene Dietrich at a party given by Ava Gardner and my HIV story? And I'm thinking, yes, I look all of that and more all of that and more so I'm [00:00:30] not sure where where do we start? That was the tip of the iceberg. I must say none of those things are very important in my life. But the, uh it's interesting that, um when I mentioned those and and they're big name people is that my life turned out to bumping into these people. And I think serendipity played a big part in my life because I did come from a dysfunctional family having an alcoholic father. I think that is a necessary result, [00:01:00] um, of, uh, not being fathered, Um, a father who wasn't able to behave like a father because he was in the throes of alcoholism for most of my life. And, um, because I was the youngest in the family of four. I experienced it to the full, because that's when he got worse as he got older and he died quite young at 64 and I turned 70 this year, so I'm six years older than he was when he died. It was [00:01:30] his birthday, actually, uh, last week. And, um, he, um I've learned to forgive him because this is where the dysfunction came in. I never really loved him. He wasn't one of those, um, loving fathers. He was badly fathered himself, and he passed it on. So the rest of the family, um, reacted in different ways to him. But in my way, uh, I had a, uh It probably adds to my [00:02:00] being gay as well, because I've never had the love of a man in my life. Where where did you grow up I? I was born in, uh, in a little town in the north west of New South Wales called Place of Wild Honey. And, uh, the Aborigines were there, but very much invisible. And I found later to my distress that they were on a mission station and being mistreated like all the Aborigines were in Australia. [00:02:30] But at the age of five, we moved with the, um the foresight of my mother to Gosford, which was a little town midway between Sydney and Newcastle, where my father had been promised a news agency, which fell through, actually, but, um, because we had a a news agency in moral, which he had bought, uh, after the [00:03:00] farm that he'd inherited from his father, who was a farmer. My father was never going to be a farmer. He, uh but he was given a property on marrying my beautiful mother in Sydney in 1929. And, um uh, it didn't work out. So they thought, Well, he likes books and newspapers and things like that. So they bought a news agency which functioned very well, but in a small country town [00:03:30] and a man who was really Although he was born in the country, he was bred in Sydney City and he was quite a lad. He, uh, just got together with the other men in the country town, played cards and drank, and that's all they did. This was, um, before the war I was born at the right at the end of the second World War. And so, um, five years in, which was I don't remember very much, but it was a tiny little [00:04:00] township. But it's a good way to begin my life. And then I really grew up in Gosford and And you were saying that, um uh, that that that you identify as gay so as a as a as a young child, I mean, did you did you know that? Did you know what gay was? Did you identify? I've got a little photograph here. I'll show to you. That's the youngest photograph I've ever had because we didn't have cameras when I was born. I think I was about 18 months there or two years [00:04:30] that was taken on Ocean Beach on the central coast. We went on holidays there from, um, uh, summer holidays. We went down that road and I truncated that photograph because I'm wearing a woolly, um, swimsuit there that you did with a strap around it. And I was sporting a gigantic erection. And I was so embarrassed when I got older to see me as a two year old toddler with an erection [00:05:00] that I cut it off and I don't know how symbolic that was, but and I was lost. I got lost from my mother and father on that, and I was crying and I I I'd run away. I didn't really run away, But that's the earliest photograph of me. And, um, as much as I didn't know what sex was when I was two, I was sporting an erection then and later, when I discovered what it was, I used it quite a bit in the rest of my life. [00:05:30] But I looking back, I felt a strange attraction to men. When I was a preteen boys at school, I had school boy crushes. But, uh, I was also attracted to women. And I had lots of girlfriends and, uh, didn't really have a boyfriend until I felt hook line and with my first lover when I was 23. [00:06:00] And that was in Paris in those early years as a as a, um, pre teenager or a teenager. Were there words that were being used for gay people? I mean, no, gay gay wasn't around then a, I suppose, And, uh, I remember when I finished school. I had a quite an illustrious ending at school. I was the head prefect and I was ducks at the school. And, you know, everybody expected me to do big things. My [00:06:30] but I wasn't really very academic. And I wasn't keen on studying. Although I got a scholarship to study, um, to become a teacher, which I taught because we didn't have any money. It was a poor family. And, um So I went to Newcastle University, although I would have preferred to go to Sydney. But Newcastle was good. And that's where, uh, I met somebody who had changed my life because my life had been special points of changing. Um, and I can, [00:07:00] um, look at certain things that happened. For instance, when I was a student, I went to a very small Christian brothers college at Gosford, so being the head boy in ducks wasn't any really big thing, but it just happened to be that way. And I've got AAA tail end of that story because recently I was invited back to present awards at that school because I've been a 50 50 years since I was the head boy there, and I gave a speech, [00:07:30] uh, on World AIDS Day and I came out to my old school. Anyway, that's another story. But it was a very important thing, because in those days, um, you know, being gay was not an option. It didn't exist, especially in my family. But when I went to Newcastle, I remember being attracted to looking at muscle magazines and things like that. That's when the first penny started to drop. But for two years at Newcastle University, [00:08:00] there still wasn't an outlet format until I went to Sydney. And when I went to Sydney, then the penny dropped. And so what year was this? That would I left. I was a young school leaver. I left when I just turned 16. It was 1961. So in 1961 Sydney, what was that 1/2 years in Newcastle? I went to Sydney in 63 63. Sydney had just started to have a little bit of gay culture. The purple [00:08:30] onion was open, which I didn't go to, but I used to go to occasionally to share the ivy, which was a bar with a sauna attached to it at Bondi Junction And, uh, that was my first discovery. Of all things a bit in drag and gay. There were drag queens there. Uh, so that would be 1960 three and 45 and six. I spent five years in Sydney, then been going to changing [00:09:00] universities and, um, dropping out of faculties. And then when my father died in 1967 I've been studying law. I felt free to drop law and fulfil my dream of going to France. But by then I knew that I was attracted to men, and I'd had a lot of one night stands with men that I'd picked up. And in Sydney, of course, being an international city, I'd met a few overseas people, and I was always attracted to people from other countries. [00:09:30] Actually, the first boy I lived with him for a while was from Tunisia. He was a beautiful Tunisian boy who fell in love with me. I didn't know what love was, but I do know that he was in love with me. And, um, we lived together in Darling Point in a little shack, darling Point, the most expensive part of Sydney. And, um, I fondly look back on him. I don't know what happened to him, but yes, he was in love with me. And I was [00:10:00] in lust with him, I suppose. But it didn't last too long because I could see that he was getting interested in me. And I knew I was a free spirit. I needed my freedom. And sooner or later, um uh, I managed to, uh, leave Australia and go to France, which is where I wanted to go. I always had a love affair with friends because getting back to my schooling, we didn't have a very good education system with the [00:10:30] Christian brothers. They weren't very good teacher, but there were some good ones. But because my family, when they didn't get a news agency in Gosford, they opened the first bookshop in Gosford. One bit of, um, I have to look at the good things my father gave me, which was love of books. I grew up in a bookshop. And because we had the only book shop in Gosford and the first one there, um, we attracted anybody who could read. Any literate person in Gosford came to us and so we met the right people in Gosford. [00:11:00] There weren't that many, but one of them was a French woman, French Canadian woman who was married to an American. And, um, she used to come into our shop. Um, and her her French perfume just knocked me dead. I love fell in love with French perfume ever since. I've always bought expensive French cologne, but I managed to get her to come to our school to teach us French oral. So from a very early age, I was able to speak French. And that [00:11:30] little serendipity, I call it the luck of the draw was instigated by me. But it was luck as well. My father at a bookshop, Rose Carmichael came in beautiful French woman. And she taught me to speak 13 when I was still forming my veil and how to speak perfect French. And that stood me in very good stead for later when I dropped out of French and went to Paris. Um, just one [00:12:00] question before we go to Paris, would did you ever have any issues around? Um, your homosexuality? Well, it's funny because, um, I felt these urges and I mean, I remember having a bit of mutual masturbation with one of my school mates, but, you know, everybody did it. Um, it was forgotten because the girls were there and you were passing girls. And, uh, that was it, though, because you couldn't [00:12:30] have sex with them. And this was part of my big frustration. Of course, Is that when I started to reach puberty, which was a bit late, Um, I mean, I was probably 18 when I lost my virginity, and that was to, um, a Danish countess. So I started off at the top end. I lost my virginity to a Danish countess on the beach at where I was a beach inspector, and it was a very fraught situation because she did not want to lose her [00:13:00] virginity. She was a virgin. And when I say I lost my Virginia her I was the first time I realised I was ejaculating and, uh see, I wasn't masturbating before then either. So I was very slow arrival to the sex scene. And it was a very traumatic experience because she wouldn't allow me to have full penetrative sex because she was a virgin. But that was the first time I remember ejaculating, and, um, it was a I didn't know what it [00:13:30] was. You know, I was so ignorant about it. But soon after, of course, I discovered men taught me a lot more about sex, and it was much easier with them, and it was much more satisfying. But I was still having very good sex with girls as well. But of course, with girls came a lot of baggage. And, um, I kept on having sex with women well into my thirties and had lots of, um [00:14:00] I remember all the women that I went to bed with, but I don't remember all the men. I mean, the number of men I would have gone to bed with would number in the thousands. Whereas the women would be probably about 20 and I I know them all, and I was still very fond of them, too. Was more of a being fond of them without being in love with them. So would you use any form of label to identify your kind of sexuality? Like I mean, I? I use the word gay, but [00:14:30] I mean, would you would you use the word gay? Uh, now? Well, it's true. It took me a while. to actually say I'm gay because obviously I'm bisexual. I think most people are bisexual. Uh, it's just that a lot of them don't express it. Um, and I've noticed living in Tasmania for three years. And here, um uh, New Zealand's got a parallel. There are so many gay men who have got married because it wasn't permitted to be gay in their culture. [00:15:00] Um, luckily, I never got married, although I tried to once because I felt I wanted to settle down and, uh, there was, um I think all gay men want to settle down eventually. And I had women in love with me so I could have done it. But anyway, that's another story. It didn't happen, thank goodness. But as far as sexuality goes, I used to say I was pansexual because, um, [00:15:30] I'm a little bit like Germaine Greer, the Great um, Australian, um, female EU author, who was also a Catholic educated girl who went a bit crazy when she came out. I went crazy when I discovered sexuality, too. And I'm a very sexual person. I'm creative as well. I think it goes hand in glove and, um, for a while. Sex ruled my life. I was addicted to sex. I can quite honestly say I was a sex addict [00:16:00] in the seventies as a lot of men were. And of course, it had its effect, didn't it? I contracted HIV the very moment I did that. I even remember the person the exact moment it happened. Want to hear about it? Well, it was just after I actually had proposed to my the lady I was living with, because at that stage in my life, I had, um an absolute, uh, [00:16:30] I was a health fanatic. In a way. I knew from an early age that that, um what I ate was very important to my health. Although we grew up with a very in a very ignorant cooking household. My mother was a reasonable cook, but we just ate to live, and that was about it. But I knew that food was very important. And, um, uh, I discovered food. Possibly when I lived in Paris in my early twenties. But back in Melbourne, [00:17:00] when I was, uh um well, on to my thirties, um, I met a woman who was, um, true and Wigmore, who is a very famous health guru in the world. The woman who discovered wheatgrass juice and, um, she'd been brought to Australia by this girl who eventually became my girlfriend and near wife. And Anne Wigmore is the most charismatic [00:17:30] woman I've ever met out of the many people I've met and I've met a lot. She was one of the most charismatic, and she liked me, too. And we did have something special. She wanted me to join her, actually on one of her cruise ships where she taught health food. But she was a victim of the federal Drug Administration in America. And not very long ago, probably about 15 years ago, she died in a fire in her building [00:18:00] in Massachusetts, and I'm quite sure that was orchestrated. And she was murdered because she was bringing health naturally to people. Anyway, I met Anne and um was introduced to wheatgrass juice and also to Jane, and we ran a live food business together, and, uh, she was growing the wheat grass, and we had people come to us all around Melbourne who had, uh, diseases they couldn't [00:18:30] look after. And we believe that a detoxified body, the body can cure itself. the old Hippocratic of If you give your body the right situation will cure itself. And I've always lived by that. And that's part of the reason that I'm still here and healthy today, because I never I always knew that HIV, when it came along, would not kill me, although for a while I doubted it's, uh, efficacy. And I do have to accept now that it is a deadly virus. [00:19:00] But for quite a while I did not believe that. But anyway, the night I contracted HIV, the only time I've had unsafe sex ever. And it was after I'd broken my relationship with Jane, and that was the result of me going away on a sexual discovery weekend, which she had orchestrated to the country with an American guru of that stage with the seventies. Don't forget, we're all discovering everything, and [00:19:30] I mean, when I went to America in 1969 I mean, I cut my teeth on Timothy Leary and I was in the West Coast in the late sixties when, you know, um, sex was rampant and I was discovering myself. I was and I was a young, attractive Australian, so I was up for grabs. I was all over the place anyway, I went to this sexual weekend. And of course, um, there [00:20:00] was a lot of people talking about sex there, and I came back and told Jane that it was a lovely weekend and of course, she I we knew that we were both bisexual. Everybody was bisexual. And I told her that I'd had sex with one of the boys on the weekend and she hit me in a bit of rage. She hit me anger, and I'm not good coping with anger at all. II I regress, I retreat and I retreated very much into my shell and [00:20:30] told her that there was no future for us because I number one I was bisexual or gay, and, uh, I couldn't cope with anybody who was going to hit me. But I felt so guilty about that because I had promised to marry her. And she was in love with me that I went out and trashed myself in one of the sex clubs in Melbourne. And I think underneath it all, I knew what I was doing because I had unprotected sex was 1983 and, um I had a lot [00:21:00] of unprotected sex with one person in particular. And of course, two weeks later I had the flu symptoms which were the very well known symptoms of HIV. But because I was leading such a healthy life, I didn't test positive for another five years till 1988. By that stage, I knew that I was going to survive anyway. And the phone call I got when I'd left Melbourne because I'd spent [00:21:30] five years in the War of AIDS in Melbourne, which was a real war, as anybody who lived through that No. And I was. I remember sitting through a night with the first person who died of AIDS in Melbourne. We used to take it in turns, going to his house because I was one of the first of the, uh, AIDS helpers there. I joined the support group and he was covered in cup of cyclo and dying. And so [00:22:00] I saw what it was like to die of AIDS. And then my friends started dropping like flies. So in 88 when I left Melbourne, I needed to retreat. I went back up to Gosford. I was offered a job in an art gallery, which was a great job. And, uh, that was another seminal point in my life because, as I mentioned, I'm jumping all over the place. But, you know, I had, uh, for instance, when I left Australia [00:22:30] in 1969 to 1968 my father died in 67. I was free to leave. I didn't have any money because I've been at university for six years, not earning any money except odd jobs. I got a job as a taxi driver in Sydney, earned a little bit of money, and while I was driving a taxi one of my fears I told them that I was wanting to go to France. You know, it was my dream to go to live in Paris. He said, Oh, he [00:23:00] he just got off the whole in America line and, um, they took work away. Passengers work away, Um, fair, you know, to Europe. And I said I so I went along. And so within two weeks, I had got a passport that accepted me on this ship called Cup Finish there, and it was leaving Sydney in December and [00:23:30] I was on it as a with three kiwis. We're all working our passage to the big new country America, which I had never planned to go to because, like a lot of Australians, I've been bred on Cowboys and Indians movies and a lot of American crap. And it was Europe that was I aim for. But luckily, I had a taste of expe of America. My first overseas country was America. And how long were you there for? [00:24:00] Well, I got off the ship in Vancouver, actually, because I was so sick of working my way in this engine room for 30 days. It was our first port of school was Vancouver, and it was the middle of winter. I woke up and the the dock was covered with with citrons covered in snow. It was the heaviest snowstorm they'd had in 20 years. I had about $200 in my pocket. [00:24:30] That was all. I had to arrive in Paris. I had a lot of luggage. I don't know what I do with that luggage. I think I strew it all across America because I ended up by hitching from, uh, Vancouver to, uh, New York. Well, I went by bus part of the way. Um, I was about, uh, eight months in in America most of the time in New York City. But see, I was looked after again because see, what happened to me, [00:25:00] Um, when I was living in Sydney. One of my flatmates at that time was Simon Townsend, who since became a very famous television personality with Simon's Townsend's Wonder World. I don't know if it ever came to New Zealand. He was at an enormous success with, uh, Children's television, and he was living with Mary. Jane was an American in Kings Cross, and I shared with him for a while, And Mary Jane came from a very wealthy [00:25:30] Californian family. So when, uh, Simon, when I left Australia, I told Simon I got this ship to, um California and he said, Oh, you gotta look up Mary Jane's family And they were a millionaire family in Oakland. So I mean, this is where I was. You know, I. I was fell on my feet. I had no money. I stayed with Mary Jane's sister in Oakland for a little while and then, uh, [00:26:00] lift because I knew I had to get over to New York to get to France because, uh, that was my destination. And to get to France, I had to. I wasn't going to fly it. It was when we didn't fly the sixties. Flying wasn't the first option. Also, I didn't have any money. But I always knew that I would get there. You know, the blindness of youth. I mean, the optimism of youth. I would get to Paris. And of course I did. You know, I hitchhike [00:26:30] across America and I got to New York, but my passport had run out and I was actually illegally in, uh, America by that stage because I'd only had a 60 day visa. And I went to the United Nations in New York through Mission and got a job with them, and I got diplomatic immunity. So there I was in New York with a job with the Australian Mission to the United Nations in 1969. [00:27:00] So 1968 1969. These were big years in the US in terms of civil rights, but also gay rights. Very big in America. Yeah. Can you describe for me what that was like being there at that time? Well, it was. I mean, I look back and see it more clearly now because because I was living it. You know, I didn't, um, uh, know what I was doing. I mean, for instance, I remember going to a party at the French Embassy in, um in New York, where one of the top [00:27:30] rock musicians of the day, Richie Havens, was playing at, you know, one of the great bass guitarists of all time. And I didn't even know who he was. You know, we just shook hands and said hi, because already I was mixing with French people then and but that was when Stonewall happened in 1969. And, um, I wrote about that. That's why you've invited me to give this story, because I was living in New York when the Stonewall riots happened. Which [00:28:00] did change the whole face of gay liberation in the rest of the world. And although I wasn't at the Stonewall Bar that night, I used to go out every night of the week dancing because I loved it with the disco. I loved dancing, especially with the black men who were great dancers. And I remember hearing about it in the next few weeks that there'd been, um, a drag queen revolution at Stonewall. But because I was living life to the full and [00:28:30] I didn't have a problem with my sexuality then and AIDS wasn't around. All of this happened in the background. So they witness their history, but not part of it. Then until I actually was in the 1st march in Sydney in, uh, about 10 years later, which was an echo of the stonewall there because that happened in 19, um uh, 77. I think in Sydney [00:29:00] when I was back. But I, as I said, I seem to have touched the nerves was because when I went to Paris, I, uh, was part of the student revolution there because the the the Big 68 revolution was still happening when I arrived in 69. And, um, I, uh, sympathise with the students, of course. And I was walking home one night via [00:29:30] and I could see all the police arriving at the station back from which was the campus, which was where the big activism was happening. So I joined the students in their fighting and of course, was bundled along with them into spending a night in jail. So I have a lovely memory of being an Australian in jail as part of the student revolution. And that was a very important revolution which, [00:30:00] uh, reverberated all around the world, certainly all around Europe with, uh, con Bender who was one of the leaders of it then just getting back to New York for a minute. And I'm wondering in 68 69 did you feel that the police were targeting gay Trans or, you know, rainbow people? I mean, were you ever, um, singled out as as a as a gay person? It was interesting, because [00:30:30] I think I got the job at the Australian mission because the the, uh the man who employed me, I think, was a closet queen and he fancied me and, um uh, he gave me a job. I don't know whether he was wanted to go it any further, but I certainly wasn't interested in him, But, um, New York was a city of streets, [00:31:00] and I lived on First Avenue and I could see the boys cruising First Avenue. And this is why I mentioned I was, um, sold my body for a while because what happened is the the Australian mission. After I worked there for about six weeks, I fell out of favour with the man who employed me because I didn't come to his party. And I was actually having an affair with the librarian lady librarian [00:31:30] who was a lovely Australian girl. And, um uh, she needed some sex education, I think. And, uh and I was there to give her because as well, I was going out dancing and tricking, as we called it in those days with, uh, any boy who came across my way. But anyway, I got sacked from the United Nations, and so I then was black labour. I was illegally in America and I didn't have any money. So what did I do? [00:32:00] I saw these boys on the street and I knew that I was I. I didn't have any problem meeting men. So yes, I went on the game for a little while for a very short while because I was not, um, a very tough customer. And I always had to like my clients and, um, I ended up buying, liking them too much and not making any money and really? So [00:32:30] that little career on the streets didn't last very long, But it was a solitary experience because I've ever since identified a lot with, uh, prostitutes and street people. And that's why I like going to the prostitutes collective here, which is a great in Wellington, which is a great sign of advancement in your country having a collective to look after the prostitutes because, uh, you know, they were not just a secondary [00:33:00] race. They were very low down on the on the on the ranks, and they number among my best friends. But, um, the way I earned the money actually to go to Paris there was then as a waiter, I got a job as a waiter And, uh, you didn't have to I. I had actually, uh a, um, social security card, which I've been told how to get. I mean, in the seventies, you could do you could break the law in a lot of ways in America. And it wasn't difficult to get a Social Security number, which meant that I paid [00:33:30] tax. And so I got a job as a waiter at one of the best restaurants in First Avenue as well that called the proof of the pudding. And it was heady days, you know, New York in the late sixties. It was dirty. New York, it was. I've forgotten the the It wasn't Rudy Giuliani. I think he came later, but New York was a different city. I've been back a few times since then and, uh, as much as I love the city, I did not want to become a New Yorker. So I mean, I managed to earn enough money. [00:34:00] And again serendipity came my way. I saw an ad in the, uh on the walls of the Y MC a in New York for a ship, a charter ship returning to Paris, turning to a had vacancies that had been chartered by a group of French school teachers. I think it was 100 and $200 or $100 to get back to France, and I had $300 by that stage. This was 1969 [00:34:30] and so I I tried. I got in this French charter ship with the people that I always wanted to be with, had a marvellous affair with one of the French women going across on the nine day cruise to a most beautiful arrival in France. You could imagine caught the train from to Paris with my Monique, my French friend from Brittany, who took me to a hotel for the night in Paris. And my first night was spent making [00:35:00] love to this lovely French woman near as well, and I couldn't sleep. I just spent the night looking at the rooftops of Paris, and I arrived in Paris with $200 in my pocket in 1969 and a dream. Uh, what was their dream? My dream. My dream was to live in Paris. And to put that into effect, though, I had when I was back in Australia, [00:35:30] applied to the French Embassy in Canberra for a job as an assistant, which is assistant, and the French are very good at helping their students learn English. They go to all the English speaking countries Canada, America, Australia and England and offer jobs for one year at a time to English speakers who have got a certain proficiency in French. And I had two years of French behind [00:36:00] me at that stage, and I'd made an application at the French Embassy before I left. But they didn't make decisions until 12 months. And so when I left Australia, I'd only just put that application in. But I was gambling that I was going to get this job as as an assistant. So when I arrived in Paris with no idea of whether I had the job or not, I stayed one night with, uh in this hotel, [00:36:30] thanks to my beautiful French girlfriend. And, um, I had the address of one friend in Paris who, interestingly, was an French for counter tenor. He was an American singing on a scholarship, and he lives in Mark, one of the most beautiful areas of Paris. And, um, I had his phone number from another French friend that I knew in Sydney. So I rang up the, [00:37:00] um, uh, Department of Education in France the next day and gave them my name and told them that I'd made an application to be in a system and they told me on the phone. But yes, you have been given a job as a I said, Could I ask where it is? Because it could have been anywhere in France, I said, I'm hoping it's in Paris, he said. Oh, you are very lucky because it's in one of the best high schools [00:37:30] in Paris, a school that Marcel Post attended. Jean Paul taught at, I mean, one of the great schools. I got a I had a job there, which was enough to keep me for 12 months in Paris. And because I loved it so much, I on the I took one of the rare occasions to reapply, and I I won a second assistant. They gave me a second job at a different school for another year. [00:38:00] So I was able to really instil my, uh, self for love, of all things French in that time and become a Parisian because I didn't know anybody else but French people. So I became a Parisian for two years and had a lot of adventures with a lot of people. And, uh, it was a very hard time. And it was there I fell in love with a man. Another big [00:38:30] experience which changed my life an American in Paris and, um, he was the love of my life. I had three love affairs, but Fred was the first one, and you've brought today a whole range of photographs of Yes, I thought I'd bring them because the three lovers in my life, though two of them were brilliant people and one of them was brilliant in another [00:39:00] way. But he was also very beautiful. The first one was an American, a New Yorker, a Jewish New Yorker. The second was a beautiful blonde German, probably one of Hitler's planned youth. Because he was born in East Germany. He was a model, and the third one was an English born Australian, uh, theatre director, one of the great theatre directors. [00:39:30] And those two have passed away with AIDS and Harry the German. I really don't know what's happened to him. The last time I spoke to Harry, he was high on the hog of, I think special K. They called it in, uh, Hollywood at that stage. Do you know what special K is? It's It's It possibly is their version of methamphetamine. [00:40:00] He became a porn star, so my second lover was a porn star. My first lover was a was a rock and roll, and the third lover was a theatre director, so they were very, very vastly different people. But, um, there are a lot of other people in between time. I'm really interested in, um just rewinding a bit where you were talking about having [00:40:30] sex with women and with men and the women you can remember. And I'm wondering for you is kind of love and sex intertwined, or are they quite different things? Well, this is this is the big thing, because I was really a part of the sexual revolution. Uh, in the seventies in particular, everybody was having sex with everybody. And, um, sex was totally divorced [00:41:00] from love. And, um, I could also see that the the girls that I was having sex with some of them could have been falling in love with me. And I was too free and too young to want to be in love, And, um, I didn't know what it was anyway. I mean, I was a very slow developer on that, uh, stratum. Uh, but it wasn't until I met Fred in Paris in 73 or two [00:41:30] when I broke down. Interestingly enough in complete mess of tears, I'll never forget. That night in his arms, I cried all night. It was an enormous emotional release because something had happened with him. It wasn't Cupid shooting at Arrow. This man, um, who was pretty came from a pretty dysfunctional Jewish family in the Long Island. [00:42:00] But he was a brilliant child of the seventies as well, and he was doing a lot of dope, and we were smoking quite a bit of dope at that stage, and he introduced me to a lot. But that's another story. Um, he fell in love with me and the the the love was just so blatantly clear. There was no question that we were in love with each other. And, um, [00:42:30] you know, we could conquer the world as well. I had a bit of money. He he thought I was exotic because I was a an Australian speaking perfect French living in Paris. And I thought he was exotic because he was a New Yorker, a city which I'd been to and lived in. But I didn't want to go back to particularly, um and he was, uh, a rock and roll singer and had a beautiful voice and wrote some of the most beautiful love songs to me [00:43:00] in the time we were together. And he'd also just come from spending a time in Spain. And he filled me with a desire to go back to Spain because I'd already been to Spain because just harking back to my first week in France when I was told that I'd got that job as a I had met on the ship in which was full of French teachers, a couple of young, um, male [00:43:30] school teachers who I'd befriended. And, um, they told me that they had a few more weeks of holiday and they were going for a car trip down to Spain and I had their contact. So when I knew that I had a job in Paris, I contacted them. God knows how I did it. We didn't have mobile phones and said, Look, do you want a companion going to Spain? And, um so I I spent the first [00:44:00] six weeks in Europe on the mainland, um, travelling with them in Spain and because they had to go back to school a bit before I did, because I didn't go back till October. They had to go back. And, um, August September, I left them in Seville and the lure of Morocco was there. I had a love affair with Morocco. [00:44:30] See, I've always been attracted to exotic places, exotic people in exotic places. And, um, I had a few, um, a $100 100 $200. American Express travellers checks. That's all I had. But I hitchhiked then down to, um uh uh, Al ja and, um which is the port to catch a boat to Tangiers somehow. Or rather. I knew I had to go to Tangiers. [00:45:00] It was that fantastic time when Tangiers was still, uh, having amazing stories written about it. Anyway, I spent, um a couple of weeks in Tangiers when I was there, and it was here. I was introduced to hashish because I'd smoked some marijuana in America. When I was there, everybody was smoking, But I never thought I'd ever had any effect by it because I I was a very naive [00:45:30] Australian. I wasn't a drinker or a smoker, but in Morocco, in Tangiers, smoking this incredible hashish from Mount Kama I knew that what dope smoking was all about then. So I immediately was thrown in to the 20th century oil to America of the 20th century. And it was an American in who introduced me to this beautiful [00:46:00] black hashish smoked in a pipe. One toke and you were done for eight hours. I mean, it is the best hash you could ever have the Rolls Royce of hashish. But, um and I never got hooked on drugs. This is one of the things. Because, as I said later, I'm jumping around the the thing a little bit here. But when I met Anne Wigmore in Melbourne and I was on a health trip eating only raw foods and drinking wheat grass [00:46:30] juice, I knew that I knew how to look after my body. So when I did contract HIV and when it came through in the test five years later, I had absolutely no, um, problem whatsoever about succumbing to it. I knew that I would win that battle. However, I nearly did succumb to it 22 years later. And then I realised the, uh, the danger [00:47:00] of HIV. I just want to take you back to Europe, and we'll just kind of cover off from Paris where, you know, how long were you there for and and And where did you go from there? Well, I did I. I had I had an amazing time in Paris because I was young. I didn't realise well, how lucky I was as an Australian in Paris, I was a rare one. There were other Australians there, but I didn't [00:47:30] know them. And, um, I met some great people in Paris. But after I my second year in Paris and I decided to cast my lot with Fred, we, uh, went back to Spain because he'd been living in cars, which is the birthplace of Salvador Dali. And he was mad about Salvador Dali, and he wanted to introduce me to Salvador Dali. So we went back and we lived in cars for [00:48:00] six months in the winter period. And we did meet Salvador Dali on quite a few occasions, going to his house and, um, smoking a lot of dope and living with all the other people in cars. Which then were the hideaway little village. Salvador Dali was, um, travelling all around the world. Although he was there when we were there. And, um, it's since become [00:48:30] a mecca for the rich and famous. What? What is it like meeting someone like Salvador Dali? I mean, well, it's funny. I did meet all these people. I mean, when I was in New York, um, when I was doing the streets in New York, I met Rudolph Nirav. We cruised each other on First Avenue, actually, and I saw him across the road, and I sort of I like the tilt of his cap. And, uh, I walked across the road as a euphemism or [00:49:00] to meet him. And, uh and we and I recognised him immediately, of course. And, uh, it was one o'clock in the morning and, um, he obviously had just come out of a sauna or something, because he, um uh, neither of us was burning with desire. And, of course, I was flabbergasted to meet him because I was a great fan of ballet, and, um, we spoke, uh, I knew he spoke French, So we conversed [00:49:30] in French for about 10 minutes about completely extraneous matters. And, um, he was charming, and I liked him very much until, uh uh, a car full of people stopped on the curb and whisked him off somewhere. And that was my little encounter with Rudolph. And it was It was it was equals talking to each other because we were alone on First Avenue. Now with Salvador Dali was a little bit the same. I mean, [00:50:00] I met these two very big people in in the world of artistic history, and I met them on an equal level cruising young man crew. I was 23. Rudy was about 29. We were both attractive people. And he was Rudolph in your life. And, um, we met on First Avenue. You know where where all the cruising was done in New York City. So we knew what we were there for, but, um, and and with [00:50:30] we were I was living right next door to we were living in an olive grove just around the corner from port, where he lived with Gala and his wife in his with his big eggshell house. And, um uh he used to enjoy meeting the young foreigners who were living in the area on the weekends, and we went there for afternoon tea. Well, because I mean, I didn't have a camera. I did. We knew [00:51:00] who he was. He was Salvador Dali and I because, uh, Gala was Russian. She liked speaking French When we arrived at the house for afternoon tea. Fred, my American lover wanted to see all Dali's artworks, and Dali showed him around the house, and I stayed in the kitchen with gala talking food recipes. [00:51:30] So that was about it. Uh, there was no big gaga sort of thing because we were locals as well. We were living in. And, um, we knew all the other people there were the people. I've since found out that were much more famous than I knew were there. But we were part of the furniture, too. But after that, we'd run out of money, and Fred's was trying to get a record [00:52:00] cut because, you know, I thought I was with this man who could sing, and he was a singer. But, uh, he, uh he didn't have what it took to cut the mustard. Although as a good New York Jewish boy bred in Long Island, he knew he had to know the right people to do anything. So we tried to read them out. We used Salvador Dali. We had met Salvador [00:52:30] Dali again in hotel in Paris. Um, Salvador Dali was a really lovely man. I mean, not like his madness. A little bit like uh, you know, when you meet people on their home ground, it's a different kettle of fish was a mad, egotistical dancer, And I know when he came to dance at the Michael Fowler Centre, they had to recreate a stage for him here, and he wasn't happy with it. But, um, you know, [00:53:00] things were different. When you meet people on different bases, it's all different. Anyway. My time in Europe. We went from Paris, a quick trip via Paris to London, where we thought we'd do something. But it was in London that the tables turned. Fred, uh decided that he wasn't going to make it as a singer in London. His family wanted him back in New York, and he pushed me into becoming a model [00:53:30] which I had no idea about in those days, because I was just a little Australian. But I happened to be the right height, the right shape and the right age and easy in front of the camera. And so he pushed me to get some photographs done, and the first job I did in London was for Christian Dior, and I'm just showing Gareth the [00:54:00] photograph that appeared in London Vogue. They took these photographs of me which, um, we introduced Dior men's fashion to the world. And, um, that was the sort of luck that I had with with my life. So that sold me on becoming an international model. How did you get that small look? I mean, had you done modelling before, I'd never the first time I'd been photographed. [00:54:30] Mm. So obviously, III I was I was natural in front of the camera. I mean, a lot of Australians, uh, become top model because they're natural in front of the camera. But it it worked for me. And it had its downside as well, because it trapped me. Then for about 15 years of my most productive time, I spent in front of a camera doing a few other things as well. But, uh, Fred went back to New York, and then I [00:55:00] became the European model because I'd picked up, uh, I spoke french and German because, uh, I'd lived in Spain for a while. I picked up Spanish, and then I picked up Italian because they're very cousins language. So I was finally fluent in five languages and I was able to work in them as well. So I worked around Europe in Paris, Milan, Hamburg, [00:55:30] Munich, Barcelona and Madrid and had a very wild life mixing it with, uh, a lot of the other top international models of that time. But not realising what we were doing because it was just sort of you did it. We weren't. We were paid pretty well, but not the ridiculous sums that people are paid these days. So when you look at those images now of yourself and so you'd have been what kind of mid twenties in those images the late twenties [00:56:00] So what do you what do you see? Another person. I don't recognise who it was. I mean, you wouldn't recognise it either. I share that photograph and nobody recognises me because we get older. I mean, I'm 70 this year. Mhm. But I changed slowly. That movie I gave you, which I made in in Melbourne, which was called the A Dream of Change, which was about [00:56:30] my Chilean friend who was a drama therapist. Through that movie I met Sue, who became my partner for five years. So the two people who affected me in that movie, because I was I wanted to become a movie maker at that stage, but this was the only documentary movie that I produced, and that was very much at an arm's length. Um, but, um, Aldo, who was as you saw in the movie, was a very charismatic [00:57:00] South American and Sue, who was one of the major people in the movie. She and I came together very closely, and she came to live with me in Gosford for five years until she passed away in 1993. And that was a seminal influence in my life. So meeting when I came back from Europe, Cos Aldo [00:57:30] introduced me to the world of people with disabilities. Um, and that's what the movie was about, people with disabilities. So when did you move back to Australia? But 1976 I think. And then I Then I was modelling in Sydney and Melbourne for a while and wasn't happy. I still felt a European because when I was living in France, [00:58:00] I always thought, I want to live there forever. So I went back to Europe as a model via New York, again visiting Fred on the way who had gone back to New York, but realising that we were never going to get back together because he was well on to a different, uh, track that story is a different story. I won't go into here. So I went back and, uh, stayed for another couple of years modelling in Europe. And that's when I met the second man in my [00:58:30] life who was a German model in Hamburg. And, um, he came to London with me. But it wasn't a relationship that was ever going to last. Although I was I was in love with him because he was a beautiful soul. But he needed me more than I needed him, I think, and to finish the relationship. Unfortunately, I had to leave Europe because, [00:59:00] uh, his career was working very well as a model in London. He was doing very well indeed, and mine wasn't so. I came back to Australia in 1977 or 1979 I think, two years later and went back to Melbourne. And that's when I started. Um, my new life and I studied a bit of movie making. In 1981 I made this movie about Aldo and Met Sue, [00:59:30] 1988 moved back to Gosford. So my life did have moments of change and I, Sarah, converted in 1983 as well. So that did have an effect on my life. I'm interested when you say that you went back to the US in. Was it 1976 1977. What was the difference between being there in, say, 68 and and then a few years later? Well, the difference is you know, they weren't that strong. I mean, my differences [01:00:00] were that I knew where I was going to, you know, I. I was a European. I knew how to negotiate the countries, and I was reasonably established on the modelling scene there. And, um uh, my languages were very handy. And, uh, I didn't tell you one interesting thing that happened on my first return trip to Australia. I'd, um, booked a flight with Air France via Bangkok [01:00:30] because I hadn't experienced the east at all. So I thought I'd have a stop over for a couple of weeks in Bangkok before I went back to see my family, who I hadn't seen for five years and, um, on the plane I'd noticed in first class because I'd walked up and down to get some exercise, a very interesting looking man sitting in first class and because I was always quick off the plane. I'm I happened to [01:01:00] go through customs at Bangkok Airport right behind him, and he heard me speak fluent French. He was a Frenchman and he asked to speak to me on the other side of the customs, and he was a movie director and he was making a French Swiss Thai co-production, and he asked me to join their team as an actor. [01:01:30] Thought of what he was really doing was wanting me to look after the leading lady, which I did. The leading lady was one of the top French actresses of her day, still the most amazing woman whom I had a most beautiful three week affair with, and we remained very close friends. The French movie was, um, didn't sink without a trace. It made the front front of [01:02:00] scope, the French magazine, and it was a story about colonial French in Thailand and because it was in the rainy season in So we, uh, the filming was very slow, and so we ended up by staying, Not just one week. It was three weeks, So I had to. I still got the telegram. I sent back to my mother saying, I'm in a French movie. I'll be three weeks late, so I didn't get home for Christmas. So [01:02:30] that was, um, another thing that happened to me. You know, II. I felt things fell across me. You know, good things happened to me and, um, meeting Sue, who was the The lady in the movie who was a paraplegic, changed my life as well because she was the most amazing person. And it showed me that you don't, um, have to have all your limbs to lead a full life. [01:03:00] So the five years I spent with her was some of the five best years of my life. So what are your thoughts on things like chance meetings and fate? And I mean, do you do Do you have any kind of underlying? Well, I, I used the word serendipity earlier. Serendipity, I think, is a chance meeting a chance happening, usually for the good. Um, for instance, I'll give you an [01:03:30] idea of a serendipitous thing that happened to me when I was back. in Australia. Um, the second time I was in Sydney, I've been working as a model. Um, and I dropped out from my both university degrees law and Arts without finishing either of them. And, um, I bumped into my French professor in the streets of Paddington because when I went to university in Newcastle, [01:04:00] I shared a distinct flair for French. And I got top marks, and Professor Hary wanted me to do an honours degree, and I failed too many other subjects to continue it. So I went to Sydney to study law. But Elva Hartley was an amazing influence. I wrote a chapter in that book of of his life. He was he was an incredibly eccentric French professor. And, um anyway, I bumped into [01:04:30] him in the street, and, uh, we recognised each other, and he never looked at anybody in the eyes. He looked down at the ground all the time. He was retired at that stage. And, um and I said, Oh, Professor, you remember me from years gone, But I said you should have finished your degree. You know, you, you you, um you showed a lot of ability and, um, that chance encounter. Er stayed with me the whole time. Because years later, after [01:05:00] Sue passed away, I was in Central Coast Lake Macquarie and had made a contact with the in Newcastle. And they invited me to go to one of their meetings in Newcastle. And it was there I met the then senior lecturer in French at the university, and I told them that I'd studied under Elver Hartley in the sixties and they were very interested that because he was an iconic professor [01:05:30] Newton John was the chancellor. When I was there, he he taught me German. Although I did German, French, double and Brin was also a fantastic, uh, professor. And again, you talk about, uh um fate. I bumped into Bryn 20 years later because he was living with his third wife, who was my friend Sue's first cousin. And Bryn, [01:06:00] of course, was the father of Olivia Newton John. And uh uh, Brynn's third wife, who was the love of his life, was Sue's first cousin, and we I got to know him on a different level just before he died. But anyway, getting back to this meeting, this chance meeting at the university I was told that I could, um, Why did I go back and finish my degree? So I thought, OK, well, that could be something I could do because I'd always [01:06:30] been starting and not finishing things. When you're a model, you live from one day to the next. You know, I've I've never really had a serious job, but, um, so I went back to university, and serendipity would have it that Elva Hartley, my professor whom I had met in the streets in Paddington those 15 years earlier, had died five years before and left a million dollars in trust [01:07:00] to the university for scholarships, which had been under, uh, legal dispute for another year or two to be released. And when I arrived back to study at the university, it was the year that the legal case had come to fruition and his million dollars had become $2 million and the scholarships which [01:07:30] he bequeathed on students. I won a scholarship to Paris to finish my honours degree. So Elva, when meeting him in the street in Paddington, stayed with me all that time I went back, finished the degree which he started because he was a very good teacher. It was in the days when universities were different. The sixties were not like they are now in the noughties. It was an old school university, Brin Newton John was the vice [01:08:00] chancellor. He was an ox, Oxford, Cambridge man. And, um, Elva was another from a different mould. But I went back in the the nineties and finished my degree and went back to Paris, squandered another six months in Paris, was never a serious student and ended up with an honours degree. And, uh then looked after my mother for 10 years. And this is back [01:08:30] in Australia, um, in Gosford, where I'm going back to in three months time. So, yeah, my life has been serendipitous in those occasions. Is that And I also believe that, uh, the life's a sort of a jigsaw puzzle, and things are filling up. And, um, you know, New Zealand was the last place I ever thought I'd come to live in. Although being in your house here, feeling [01:09:00] I could be anywhere in the world, um, that's what Wellington is like. For me. It's a It's a beautiful international gem of a city. And, um um, in 1973 When I was living in Barcelona, I, uh, met a Brazilian who was very keen to show me his, uh, extra body, um, [01:09:30] ability of going to a trance and reading fortunes. The fortune teller. He went into a trance and, um, he read my fortune, told me something about past life. I didn't know him before. Quite an accurate summation of what I did when I was younger and told me in 1972 that he saw me living in New Zealand. Yeah, which did come to fruition [01:10:00] teaching and living in New Zealand, which has happened in one way, but perhaps not the other. So who knows whether I'll come back or not? But, uh, so that was in his cards he saw. So that's why I believe that in the spiritual world, see, I'm a very spiritual person, and it was spirituality which led me to sue and spirituality, which led me to New Zealand and its spirituality, which has taken me home to [01:10:30] Gosford because I believe that in the world of spirit, there's no such thing as time space continuum that people can know the future, and not that we need to know the future. But, um uh, this man, when he went into his trance, saw me in New Zealand in the future, and he was right. I was did come to New Zealand, And, uh, but the [01:11:00] effect of, um discovering a spiritual path the same time practically the same year that I converted into AIDS was also a bit fatalistic because I was given a death sentence in those days. And yet I was given a knowledge of afterlife. So So what year [01:11:30] did you see Convert to AIDS 83 83. And it was, But that's when I got HIV HIV rather than aids. Well, what is a DS? Uh, AAA. I DS a DS is an acquired immune deficiency syndrome. HIV is the virus that carries that, But what happened to me 22 years after having carried the virus, my body slipped into an illness which was an AIDS defining illness, which was Pneumocystis pneumonia, [01:12:00] PC, P, which was a killer. And that was 19. No, that was 2006 when that happened. And that was the year I first came to New Zealand. And that was the year that my Kiwi Doctor in Gosford who had been I'd been seeing for quite a few years and who knew my story about refusing to take medication? Uh, did not push medication my way because it was the person's decision to take it or not, [01:12:30] and I had chosen not to take it. But I started to lose a lot of weight, and, uh, I became very, very thin to the point of having no energy and realising that, uh, that my time was coming. And I remember having a dream in one of my nights sweats, as you did, uh, wake up in the middle of the night covered in sweat, realising that I could either take [01:13:00] it or leave it. Um, and I was told that I had to take it, which meant the next day going to see my doctor and having an EM. I scan being told that I was an inch away from full blown pneumonia, which would have carried me off, and I took the drugs and they brought me back to life. And now so I've been on those drugs now for about, uh, 11 years, [01:13:30] uh, 69 years taking them every day, just two pills a day, but they've My, um my city for count went down to about 70 or 80 which is very risky. And now I'm built up to 500. So I'm you know, I've made an enormous recovery and of course I know how to look after myself. And the reason why I think I did get sick at that stage is that as I said, [01:14:00] I spent 10 years looking after my mother. When you care for somebody, you forget to care for yourself. What was your first memory of HIV? A. I DS of the whole effect. Well, it's a very interesting one, and I have it crystal clear in my mind. It was 1981 in Melbourne and, um, the word had come from America that this gay plague was coming to Australia and we all went to the dentistry building at Melbourne University. There are [01:14:30] 1000 of us there, and it was hushed tones and we were hearing that this incredible disease was going to hit Australia and that, uh, 90% of people who were infected would die from it. It was a shocking thing that was happening. This preceded the Grim Reaper advertisement. But they did say 90 per cent of people and I knew that I would be in that 10%. They never said it was going to be 100% lethal. So [01:15:00] I knew whatever happened, I would be in that 10%. And that was my first introduction to and I embraced it. Yeah, I I've always been one. When you have a problem, you embrace it, you go out and you don't run away from it. You go for it and you fight it and embrace it. Which is what I did from day one. I've always been strong in the AIDS care, the AIDS, anti activism I wrote for many [01:15:30] magazines about, um uh how I thought AIDS was not killing people. And then, of course, it nearly didn't kill people. Peter Blaze. He was one of my very good friends in Sydney who was also an AIDS activist, and he wrote this article for the then Sydney newspaper, which is worth a look at. And, um, I [01:16:00] could see that people were dying of the drugs they were taking, which was basically a ZT, which was shown then to be a killer because they were overprescribing it. And I was really an activist against anti HIV anti a ZT. And, uh, it was because I refused any medication for 22 years that I'm alive and healthy today. Um, because I didn't trust the multinational drug companies. [01:16:30] And everybody knows they're out making dollars out of the AIDS um, phenomenon. And, um, because of that, the drugs that I did take were much more sophisticated in 2006, and I've been able to live with them quite easily, but I have been very big on complementary therapies. Um, I'm showing Gareth a picture [01:17:00] of me when I was writing for the Continuum magazine, which was the big anti HIV magazine at that stage. And there was a lot of people, including the then president of South Africa, uh, who was believing that HIV was not the cause of AIDS. Paul, can you read this personal? This this personal ad that you've you you placed in [01:17:30] 1997? Can you read that to me? This is This is when I was, um, single. I knew that I wasn't going to meet any body in Australia and I was travelling back to Europe and, um, I put this ad in London. It's a personal column looking for a mate. Aussie visiting Europe November through January [01:18:00] would like a pen friend continuum S sympathetic continuum with the anti AIDS activist magazine. I haven't got a copy to show you here. I'd written an article for it called Lust for Life, where I told them how healthy I was because I'm not on medication. And I describe myself perfectly well and healthy. Sick of the Aussie scene of HIV deaths. Positive since 83. Would love [01:18:30] to meet similar soul. I'm a young 52 lived in London in the mid seventies, Derek Ja's Jubilee, who was a very well known person who died of AIDS as well and will travel, speak French and German like most things could be said to be adventurous. I'm health conscious. Don't smoke or drink. I'm mainly vegetarian. Don't do the scene anymore. Needless to say, spirituality [01:19:00] is an important dimension to my life. Looking to meet an open minded, positive guy age, nationality, unimportant but prefer fitness minded AIDS dissident with whom to kick this insidious system, which is killing all our friends. I was very angry about it because I really all of my friends died. And, uh, Peter Blazey eventually died as well. [01:19:30] Who was also a dissident. But he'd had a year on a ZT. See, I mean, Rex cramp. I really do believe some people had a death wish. Who died early in AIDS. Um, I've never had a death wish, and I've always known that if my body is well looked after, it will survive. But both these two major loves of my life, these two here, [01:20:00] brilliant men died in their prime horrible deaths. How? How was that received in terms of being kind of anti medication by the wider kind of community? How? How did people? Well, yes, it was interesting because because I was so upfront about it. And, um, I worked for a in Newcastle for a while when I was living with Sue [01:20:30] and I was into complementary therapies then, and I was trying to teach people that if they looked after themselves, they didn't need to take medication, and I was living proof of it. I've been 15 years positive, not a day's illness, but it was creeping up onto me. I was having a few problems that I was ignoring. I was in denial. But nobody could really say anything against me because they didn't have any proof either. I mean, AIDS has been a big study. The whole time they've been experimenting on people, [01:21:00] people died in droves being experimented on with a ZT. How did those early years of HIV aids in Australia? Impact on the communities and I, I guess. Just talking from your own point of view. Well, I had to escape it. This is one reason why I'm still so positive and psychologically not scarred by it. Because for the first five years, from 83 to 88 I was in the hub of the fight in Melbourne. [01:21:30] And, um but I was, uh, burning out and I needed to leave again. I was being looked after somebody arrived in Melbourne from Gosford and they had a job. They offered me managing an art gallery in Copacabana, central coast, where I grew up. And, uh, that's when I started to, uh, get away from the whole AIDS industry. Although I did work a little while in Newcastle A for [01:22:00] a while, but I was always on the edge and that job I had for six months as the HIV education officer. There was not renewed, I think, because they knew that I was an AIDS dissident and they didn't want me there. And I didn't mind leaving them because I had my own life to live. Uh, AIDS has never played. HIV has never played a big part of my life, but it's always been there. And of course I did nearly die from it. So it has been a life death situation, and now I have to [01:22:30] take pills every morning for the rest of my life, seemingly so it's going to be with me until I die as well. But of course, there's no reason why I can't live until I'm 90. And, um, that's the way it could well be and a very productive life as well. Because, you know, I came for my last two years in Wellington have been incredibly productive. I I was been on the AIDS board for for two years. I'm on the board of interfaith [01:23:00] here, uh, which is part of my spiritual path. I'm the first person to join interfaith from my spiritual path here, and, um, I'm finding that quite an interesting, uh, event because certain things in New Zealand are very much in advance and certain things are very much behind. And I won't make any comment on that. You you mentioned earlier that that you're 70 now, Are there other issues [01:23:30] that affect, um, gay people as they aged? Uh, or is it just just ageing? Well, because, uh, there are still quite a percentage of people my age who aren't positive who are ageing gay men. Of course. Uh, it will be you in 10 years time. Oh, So I think the, uh, the canvas is being prepared for gay ageing now. And I've got a very good friend in Australia [01:24:00] who might be seeing when I go back, who is very active in preparing, um, retirement homes and aged care facilities to be gay friendly, not gay Pacific, but gay friendly LGBT Q I friendly. And, um, it's go. And he's working in government circles in Canberra to bring that into the law that people working in aged care facilities have to be educated and have to learn that there's different sensitivities for gay people in retirement homes. [01:24:30] And they have to be themselves because that's the whole aim about the fighting for equality and being oneself is that we don't have to cover up anymore because for so long we had to live double lives in a way. And that's the beauty of the law here. I mean, society hasn't caught up with the law yet in New Zealand, but it is slowly catching up. You still hear of sad stories in the provinces, but the law here is very good. And one of my attractions to New Zealand [01:25:00] was the fact that you are legally so much in advance of Australia and, um, standing on your own 2 ft in many ways. And, uh, but I think Australia needs me back to do the fight for them as well, certainly in the field of Aboriginal recognition in the constitutional level as well. So all of this plays a big part in my life. My life can't be separated. You know, I, uh, having HIV and AIDS is a small part [01:25:30] of it. But it's a very active part because it makes me aware that I'm a minority within a minority, and I'm also a minority on the spiritual level as well, although as a believer in reincarnation and karma. I belong to the great majority of the world who also believe in that. It's just that not many people care to think about it. And I do every day and can't wait for my next incarnation wherever it will be. [01:26:00] Do you have any preference? Not on this plane. There are lots of other plans to come back to, um the universe is a limitless place, and we never stop changing as soul, which is eternal. We never die. We're part part of the Godhead, part of the universal life force, which is not just this one tiny universe, the many universes that exist. And, um, [01:26:30] once we identify on that superhuman level, which is what the astrophysicists now are getting into, science and religion are coming very much together that we are a series of vibrations, really. And once we identify, um, that's where our soul is. That's where we go when we leave. But of course, we've got a duty [01:27:00] in this this lifetime to live life as loving as possible and to do as much as we can to help other people along with it. And that's been my aim and it's one of the reasons I'm going back to Australia. I've got work to do over there in this field just in the short time we've been talking. I mean, you've you've led such an extraordinary life [01:27:30] and it's been completely jam packed is more to come. I'm only beginning the next stage, but yes, when I was young, I said I had a little thing I said to myself, I want to do everything in life. I remember saying myself to that when I was very young, when I was 16 and a little boy in Gosford, I said, I want to do everything and really, when I look back on the last 60 years or 55 years, I have done a hell of a lot [01:28:00] and, uh, I have seen a lot of people come and go. I've refused invitations. It could have left me in different ways. I haven't talked about my relationship with Roy Cohn in New York, who was the major character in Angels in America, the lawyer who advised, uh, the government in those awful eras and who died of AIDS himself. He, uh, he was offered to me on a plate When I was in New York, [01:28:30] he wanted to take me to Acapulco to be his toy boy boyfriend, which I refused the invitation. But see, these things were offered to me. I could have accepted them. He was the most powerful man in America at that stage, and he's dead. Avoid. And I spent a night with him where he told me his deepest secrets, and he was [01:29:00] enormously traumatised, traumatised, ugly little man who happened to have New York by the scruff of the neck and who came out in some terrible ways. And if you saw angels in America, you know exactly how he was portrayed and that by, um uh, he was very good. Yeah. So, you know, I've had a chance to mix it with some of the biggest [01:29:30] and best in the world and come through unscathed and realise, you know, I can see you know, the unimportance of so much. And, um, I know where to place my values, and I know what's important. My constant travelling is, uh, getting me trimmer. As far as positions go, I'm still carrying a few things as you see mainly personal memorabilia. But my move back [01:30:00] to Australia will be, hopefully a few boxes and nothing much more. There were two names in the email that you sent me that I. I just want to I also want to know about, um before we end. And, uh, the the two names were, um, Simone, who you were dancing with in a city nightclub. And Marlena Dietrich? Yes, indeed. Well, I mentioned those because they're they're two of the great icons in their various worlds. And, you know, [01:30:30] I happened to meet them. And, uh, but with Nina Simone, it was just that I happened to be in this nightclub alone on the dance floor, and she'd been singing, uh, in Sydney that night. I didn't know who she was until somebody told me and we were dancing with this other black man who was in her entourage, um, on the dance floor. And, of course, since then, I'm one of her greatest fans. And, uh uh, I just seem to [01:31:00] know that I'm going to bump into people like that, you know, it will happen. And, um, it did happen to me, you know, I met the people I needed to meet when I had no idea that I was going to meet one of the greatest serial artists of the world on his home base. Salvador Dali over there. I refused an invitation from Christopher Isherwood to spend a weekend away with him when he was looking for young men because I [01:31:30] it didn't con wasn't convenient for me that weekend. And yet I'm a great fan of Christopher Isherwood's writing, and I like his spirituality as well. But, um, these were the things that did happen to me. So I have led a protected and, uh, amazing life from the point of view of meeting amazing people getting touched by them, but not totally affected by them, to change who I am. Because basically, [01:32:00] I'm just a simple little Aussie living in Wellington and, uh, enjoying the fa fabulous life that Wellington has offered me and still is. And Marlena Dietrich. Oh, Marlena. Yeah, well, Marlena was quite AAA funny experience because it was it was a gardener. Uh, was had, uh, hosting the party at this restaurant that I was the barman at in Bond Street in London. And, uh uh, she just [01:32:30] had her first night on the West End and a Gardner was living in London, I think at that stage. So they were all buddies, and the restaurant happened to be owned by a showbiz producer. And so we used to get the top people along there, and it was downstairs. They had the private room downstairs, and they had a circular stairway going up and down. And I was bringing the drinks down the circular stairway from upstairs in the bar and, uh [01:33:00] um, Ava was sitting, uh, at the top of the table with Malena and the table was full of various, you know, hangers on mainly, uh, powerful men, the smattering of gay people I would imagine. And, um, I remember, um, Marlena ordering a beer. And, um, Ava was keeping quite sober because it was her party. She's known to be a drinker, [01:33:30] but I'll never forget when the party finished at the end. Because I wasn't privy to all the conversation, but I was asked to come down to help Marlena climb the stairs on the way out. And I'll never forget following these legs. These famous legs up this circular stairway with her wiggy being precariously balanced on her very thin head. And she was pulling herself with her very strong arms up the stairway [01:34:00] because later she fell over on the stage in Melbourne and that ended her career, I think. But yes, it was an interesting little story to see these icons in the flesh. But, you know, that's what you did in the seventies. You bumped into these people. I mean, I only saw your on the stage after meeting him on First Avenue, but, uh, unfortunately, I was very sad to hear that he embraced early in the in the fight against [01:34:30] AIDS, a ZT, and he took a big dose of a ZT. And I have no doubt that that carried him away. So, you know, I do know the secret of living, and it's thinking positively, but also making decisions for yourself And, um realising that, uh, if you do look after yourself, you will survive. But the level of, uh, spirituality, which is the major element [01:35:00] in my life today and which directs everything I do is without a doubt the reason I'm here today. Yeah, because I've been guarded.

IRN: 869
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089648
TITLE: Ann-Marie - Butch on Butch
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ann-Marie Stapp
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 1960s; 1990s; 2010s; Adrian Leason; Anglicanism; Ann-Marie Stapp; Aotearoa New Zealand; Blenheim; Butch on Butch (exhibition/series); Catholic workers; Catholicism; Chicago; Galaxies (Wellington); Jac Lynch; Lesbian Nuns: Breaking Silence; Lesbian choir (Wellington); Louisa Wall; Margaret Mayman; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Matiu / Somes Island; New Zealand Youth for Christ; Salvation Army; Springbok rugby tour (1981); St Andrew's on the Terrace; Waihopai Ploughshares; Waihopai spy base protest (2008); Wellington; Women's Refuge; abortion; abuse; activism; anarchism; binary; brass bands; butch; children; church; civil unions; clothing; commitment ceremony; community; dance; dyke; education; facebook. com; family; femininity; feminism; femme; fluidity; grandparents; hair; hangi; health; homosexual law reform; hui; identity; lesbian; liberation; marriage; marriage equality; mental health; mental illness; movies; music; non-binary; nonviolent response; parents; prayer; proposal; religion; rugby; school; siblings; social justice; soft butch; sport; sunday school; survival; ties; tomboy; Ōtaki
DATE: 4 April 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Ōtaki, Ōtaki, Kapiti Coast District
CONTEXT: In this podcast Ann-Marie talks about religion, a 19-year relationship and three commitment ceremonies.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I was born in the mid sixties in a lovely little town of ble top of the South Island. Um, didn't appreciate it much growing up, but when I go back to visit Mulberry now, the place is just beautiful. The whole area, the surrounding areas, the sounds, the valleys, the mountains, even snow Sometimes, um, I love my hometown. Didn't when I was growing up, though, I was glad to leave. What didn't you like about it? It's very small. Um, [00:00:30] population 16,000. Um, life was school, church, youth group. There was one movie theatre. Um, there wasn't a lot to do. Um, so I didn't like that smallness. I always felt contained. Um, but when I think back over it, the education education was very good. Um, I had lots of opportunity around sports and being involved [00:01:00] in that way. Um, but I felt like I always felt like I needed to get away. Yeah. And who's in your family? Well, there's my mom and dad. Um, they both passed away when I was 30. Um, they were quite young, and they were late sixties. Got my older sister. Um, Rosie, who's 60. She was 60 last year, I think. Then, um, my brother, um, Linzi passed away at [00:01:30] the age of 50 of the complications of a benign brain tumour during surgery. And I have another brother who's, uh, who's Michael. Michael lives in Timaru, the thriving metropolis of Timaru, and he's happily married down there, Um, to the lovely gay. Um, there's when my brother died seven years ago. I said to my remaining siblings, and now there's three. That's us. Um, and we've got closer as we've got older as you do. [00:02:00] So, um, you're you're pretty close. I. I went to your wedding last year, and I think you had family there. My, my, um my sister was there, and my brother and his wife, uh, were were at my wedding to Mary Mary and I met in 19. 0, my gosh. Uh, I knew about Mary in 1991 because when I was leaving to Christchurch, someone gave me a present, an artwork by [00:02:30] Mary and said if you ever met Mary, you would like her. So that was very prophetic, because I met Mary. Then four years later, in 95 through a choir, actually through what was known as the the lesbian choir back then we went for a couple of years. Where was that? Uh, in Wellington. I'm trying to remember how that set up. I was involved with some of it, but there were three or four of us who were musicians. I got back from Christchurch. People were talking about it. There had been a lesbian [00:03:00] and gay choir in existence called Galaxies, which met from 1991. And they got together at Advent for the purposes of doing an Advent service at Saint Andrews, which was a lesbian and gay identified choir. But we also had a lesbian choir group of about 15 of us, and we sang it Woman's spirit rising and different women's conferences. But, gosh, this is a long, long ago. So I met Mary in that context. And, um, we went for a walk on a beach on the [00:03:30] 12th of January of 1996 Beach and when we moved in together in the the week my mother died, when I was just starting to move my gear and my mother died suddenly. So that's how my Mary met my family, Um, at at that huge event, it was overwhelming. Really? Um, yeah. So that's 96. We've just celebrated. So when we we decided we [00:04:00] were together, um, we thought about what date would signify that. And that was a That was a day we walked on the beach and we read some feminist books and and quoted academically at each other and and then ate a magnum ice cream on the way home. And it was all very sweet. So we just celebrated 19 years. And in the course of that, I remember around about the four year point. None of my relationships have lasted beyond four years, and I remember saying to her, [00:04:30] What do we do now? And she said, Don't we just carry on? And, uh, I remember laughing and thinking, Yeah, actually, you do. So we've had three major ceremonies, Um, in our life, 2003. I was very ill. I was told I had something in my brain that could have been a a lesion or an infection or, uh, MS, and we didn't know what it was. And so they sent me home from hospital saying, Put your fears in order and we'll know in six weeks whether you're sicker or better, and it could have grown, [00:05:00] Uh, So Mary and I, in 10 days put together a commitment ceremony because, remember, this is 2003. We didn't have civil unions legalised even then. Hard to think. 12 years ago, we didn't have that. And we had a small group of 12. Um, for me, I said it at the at the reception table. It felt like the last supper. Um, you know, there was 13 people at the table. Um, but we had a commitment ceremony, and my family flew up, [00:05:30] and it was a very, very beautiful commitment ceremony. And then we waited. And then I turned 38 and then I had a Christmas, and then we realised what I had wasn't going to kill me, which was quite celebratory, as you can imagine, but did put a different flavour in our relationship in terms of what were we going to do with it with my partner? Um, Mary is 20 years older than me. And, um, that does make a difference in terms of life [00:06:00] change. So we came up to and had a look around at properties and we looked at this one. It was the fourth property we looked at and then went Now it's too small because this house is 70 square metres, the same as what our house was in. But we only had one metre between properties in Kilburn. But we knew we had to move up here. We knew this was the next part of our relationship. This was, um So in 2006, [00:06:30] um, we bought the property in 2005 and 2006. We chose our anniversary that we worked on, walked on the beach. That would have been our 10 year anniversary. And we approached Marie Maman at the Saint Andrews on the terrace. Maggie being supportive of of, um, marriage, equality. And I remember the debates leading up to civil unions, and Mary and I stood on the continuum of not supporting civil unions. Um, because we believed [00:07:00] that was less than a marriage equality. Um, we got talked into supporting the campaign via our music and and being visible and accepting the more liberal view that this was a pathway to marriage equality. And we stood in Saint Saint Andrews on the 12th of January 2006 and, um, reset our vows to each other. We had said in 2003 in a public ceremony was probably 60 people from my various workplaces and, um, [00:07:30] had the most beautiful Mary had returned to Catholicism at that point. And, um, we were fortunate enough to have a priest who who did a family reunion Mass for us before we went down to Saint Andrews and and had that ceremony. And that was the way we started our partnered life. Our our legally partner partnered. Life was up here in, and we moved here full time that year. Not long after that ceremony, and then [00:08:00] the miracle happened. Um um, Louis Louis Ward's bill got chosen to be be heard, the Marriage Equality Marriage Amendment. And we knew it wasn't going to be as huge as the Civil Union because it didn't require the same rule change and lo and behold, a past. And I was in Chicago and I I know I knew the time difference was 19 hours, and it seemed like Wellington was still paying at 4 a. m. [00:08:30] because I was up watching it. It was about nine o'clock at night or something. And I'm thinking what's happening in Wellington. And then I tuned into the and I. I rang Mary and said, Will you marry me? You know how I go? It was like getting down on my knees for the commitment ceremony because I was very sick. So getting on my knee at that back in 2003 in 2003 he had proposed was going to propose to her. I I had the S Island trip plan to stay [00:09:00] overnight and propose, and I got sick and I was in hospital. But this was so I rang and proposed. And then, of course, I did the Facebook proposal. And when I woke up the next morning, there were 33 comments saying, Is Mary going to say yes? Oh, no, She hasn't answered what is happening. What's the sign? So I had to text her and say, Will you please get on Facebook and put people out of their misery? And I came home from, um from my America trip. I was picked up at the airport. Mary was at a at A at a prayer meeting, um, for social justice issues [00:09:30] and the civil trial that was going on. And I arrived at Saint Andrews and texted it to come out, and I got down on one knee on the steps of Saint Andrews. Um, and I had a a labyrinth, uh, cup that, uh uh, a bowl little bowl that I bought from New York near the site of the 9 11. And that labyrinth got a special meaning to us and, um, had a had a rosary ring in it. Um, just for a little, you [00:10:00] know, down on one knee and I was so wobbly and so jet lagged This stranger walked by and ran up to me to grab me because she thought I'd fallen over. And then someone said, No, no, she's proposing. And, um and everyone's laughing because a couple of friends were watching what was happening, and she stood back and went, Oh, and applauded us. So So Mary has been a huge part of my life 19 years together. Um, we we're laughing at each other because she retired [00:10:30] fully in June last year. Um, as I decided to move my, uh, home business out of the home to a place down the road so we didn't spend too much time with each other. Um, but I'm coming into retirement myself now. And we've just been joking with each other about, you know, leaving the butter knife on the bench and, uh, who sweeps the floor. So, uh, we're trying to I guess we're doing role definition again now that our life is changing again. So Mary has been a huge part of my life. [00:11:00] Um, if someone had said to me 19 years ago, I would be happily married, living up the coast and with a with a family of my choice as well, because it's got Children in it to have seem to have adopted us. Um, it's just a whole new phase of life, and we're loving it. Tell me about your adopted family. Wow. Adopted family. Um, the well known family, um, Adrian, the [00:11:30] papa of the family. He was one of the three, as we call them in 2008. 3 Catholic worker men took some action, um, against the spying base in and in. And they went down there and used a sickle and disarmed it in the name of Christ. After the Isaiah verse that's printed on the United Nations wall in New York, Um, that that [00:12:00] we will turn the swords into plough shares, so disarmed it in the name of peace. And I knew who the family was, and I was watching television. One night it was about was 10. It was late news. And there is a man with a beard from church being carried away, being taken away in handcuffs and a boiler suit. And I went running and woke Mary up and said, You've got to see this. And, um, there was a very, very big [00:12:30] split in the community over the rights and wrongs of what had occurred. And and Mary and I were definitely on the support, this family. So about that time, um, the trial came along. My the little one who's six now was about to turn one, and we were facing the potential for a to be in jail for that time for maybe 10 months a year, we had thought. And that meant, um, seven Children, um, and Mary [00:13:00] and I just became more and more active, and the little ones loved us more and more, and we loved them more and more back and If anyone said there'd be a little one in my life, I would have laughed at them as well. Um, and the jury saw not to find them not guilty on the basis of, uh, particular points of law about what they were doing, that they weren't terrorists, that they were activists. And they, um I just love this family's politics. And then I saw Then I saw [00:13:30] the family that I would have loved to have grown up in, you know, home schooled, a big piece of land, Um, growing up fully loved. And when I proposed to Mary and said, Will you marry? She Me? She looked at me and she said, I'll do it. We'll do. I'll do it because she didn't want She's an introvert. Her idea of a party is two people. Um, she said I want to be married in the barn, and the bar is quite [00:14:00] significant because we've had lots of band dancers in there over the years. So years, and then when it came to the wedding, this family and they are our family hosted our wedding, and when I counted out later, it was a community event. So it was an open invitation for 157 people came through the door that day and they fed them with the the hospitality. And there there are. So this Catholic worker ethos, which is, um, live off the land as much as possible. Um, there's [00:14:30] Catholic worker farms all around the world, and, um, it's open door. You need a place to live, you need a place to stay. And I've many times taken refuge there. I've never had to sleep there overnight. I've never had a fight with Mary That's required me to go and sleep there overnight. Uh, but they do have my couch because I donated it there. Um, so we eat there, We fellowship there. We pray we meditate together. We, um I think one of my most favourite events [00:15:00] at that house was five years ago. Every five years, there's six Catholic worker farms in New Zealand, I think, and they rotate. So this year it was back to their farms that they've just had a about what Catholic workers are on the social justice left side of things. Um, but the most fun workshop I ran there he I was asked to come and present a workshop. This is five years ago, um, on being a Christian feminist, and I didn't [00:15:30] leave it there. Uh, Christian, Feminist anarchist. The anarchy was important. And so I also added in lesbian, lesbian, feminist, Christian anarchist What is that? And what does it look like? And it was the most incredible two hour fun as we looked at continuum and how they crossed each other and and again, pushing forward away from dichotomy into into progressive Christian thought. So So so right on the left hand [00:16:00] polar opposite to extreme fundamentalism. Um, so that's kind of that's the kind of things I get up to Mary and I get up to with our adopted family. Did you grow up in a Catholic family? No, not as straightforward. My father was Catholic and my mother was Anglican. Um, but my mother's parents were Salvation Army. So when my mother, my grandmother had conceived my mum out of wedlock in 1928 things fell apart at the Salvation Army. And, [00:16:30] uh so because they were originally McMillan and Scottish, they went to Presbyterian. But my but it just keeps swapping all over the place and then on the Catholic side of my family, which is my father's huge fight. When his, um, his father became an Anglican out of a Catholic family when there was a fight over land, so half the branch stayed Catholic. But my grandfather was not. My [00:17:00] father's father was not baptised Catholic, and when his wife died and she was Irish Catholic, something happened at the funeral, and it was the year I was born a big fight, and, uh, I wasn't offered the opportunity to attend a Catholic school. My father would have nothing to do with that, so but I was. His grumpiness didn't come until a few months after I was baptised. So when I was very sick in 2003, I wrote to the Catholic Church and said, You know, was my father grumpy with you at the time? [00:17:30] Or did he actually let me be baptised? And that came my baptism certificate. But in terms of church upbringing, it's always been part of my life. I think my because we weren't having anything to do with the Catholics. My mom desperately needed peace and quiet on Sunday, so she sent my brother and I off down to the Anglican Church down the road, and that was always fun. So Mark's was great. And, um because next door they had this little tiny town thing that you can go play with all the figures, actually, so, um, we were always shoun it off [00:18:00] to church. Um, but we got to do cool things, like, you know, plays nativity plays and things like that. So quite fun things. Who did you play? Well, I want to be the angel, but but some My friend got to be angel. I was never allowed to be the angel because I never had the long blonde hair. It was just wrong. I tell you, I'm traumatised. Same thing happened in sixth form at school when they were choosing the angels for the school. Anyway, don't go there. The the Then At the age of seven, my father had the [00:18:30] opportunity to sell this very, very old mansion we had that was falling down and needed lots of repair in a very poor area of B ham, actually an industrial area. And he took the opportunity to buy a newer house. 60 year old villa. It was a newer house for us and we moved to Redwood Town in Brenham. And so that was 10 days before my eighth birthday, and we moved there. And, um so I went to a different school, and, um and I grew up. [00:19:00] Um, I was apparently my friend. Phillipa tells me now she remembers me, and I remember this too. I would have been eight, and I didn't have any friends at this point, had anyone. And I was out on the lawn dancing to myself, and she reminded me about that kind of. I saw you across the road. You were dancing by yourself. I was so embarrassed. I thought, Oh, my God, the whole world could see me. But Philippa came from a Army family, and, um, I used to jump in their little Fiat on Sundays, and we we go to Sunday school and and then [00:19:30] I spent a good right up until 20 I was in the Salvation Army and went through all all this amazing youth group stuff, which was really my family, like it was really I got to go to Snow for the first time, and, um, but I was also an outsider, too, because I wasn't an inside Salvation Army outside. But the I love the stories I always loved the metaphor of the Christian story. It's all has been part of my upbringing, and I completely rejected it through my twenties once I left the Salvation Army. Um, [00:20:00] but I've redefined that metaphorically what that is. And it fits really well with my social justice. Nonviolent, um, responses to the world. And we talk about the nonviolent Jesus and and progressive Christianity. Um, yeah. So So that's how I got to go to Sally. And, you know, two years ago I found out Philippa and I shared great great grandparents. We were fourth cousins. So when I did all the history of the area, [00:20:30] I'm like, Oh, my goodness, that she was family, but we didn't know that she was family and blood. So since then, you know, a lot of us left the Army for various reasons. I left, of course, in 1985 because of homosexual law reform, you know, there I was 15 when we did, um, sorry, even 14, when the abortion debate started in the late seventies through the United Nations conversations and and protests, and I remember as a third former picking [00:21:00] up pamphlets at church that were slamming these women activists who supported and and starting to think. And then, at 15, I was 15 in 1981 when the Springbok tour. Yeah, and we had a lot of rugby players and, um, in our church instead of instead of being with them. On Friday night, the church playing in the brass band, I went on the protest march against the tour. So this gradual political awakening that keeps separating me from [00:21:30] from this particular core, as we call them this particular branch of the of the Salvation Army was I was just forming this politics and I didn't and I didn't fit. I can never fit that That same thing about needing to leave ble, needing to leave my family and needing and needing to leave the constraints of conservative Christianity feeling like I was bigger than that, but not feeling like I was good enough. [00:22:00] So at the end of my seventh form year, I was too scared to wear in my seventh form years see a lovely butch picture of me in my seventh form year. I'm wearing my school uniform, um, soft watch there, I think. But certainly that's where I'm starting to identify as lesbian. And, um, not knowing that word, just not knowing that word. And there's a whole pile of us. There's five of us. And, um, who came out for the other four guys and there was me, um, in that youth group [00:22:30] at that time. So we beat the one in 10 rule. We did the one in six. I engaged. I was engaged briefly to one of them, A lovely, lovely man who's one of my best friends. He lives in Melbourne Now, Um, we just love each other. The bits, Really? I contacted him when I was sick and he came down from Auckland. I hadn't talked to him for about nine years, and when I was sick, I was putting fears in order. And so I rang that I wanted to talk to. There was some I didn't want to talk to, and they came. Why [00:23:00] did you want to be involved in the Butch and Butch photo exhibition? Well, I tossed and turned on that one. I tossed and turned on that one because Butch was a term I used in a relationship previous to, uh, the relationship now, and we did classify ourselves on those roles, but and that helped define our roles in terms of who did watch duties. But we also, [00:23:30] you know, we had those conferences going on through the early nineties. There were, I can't remember. But there were lesbian conferences. And so those issues were to the fore, and we had people coming and visiting about their books, you know, lesbian silence and all those kind of things and lesbian I. I can't remember them all, but so there were topics we were debating, and I remember thinking, Yeah, if I'm going to put myself on that continuum, I would be butch. So when the opportunity came up, I started thinking [00:24:00] of all the times in my life that I didn't fit, and I certainly wasn't feminine growing up, even though I had curly hair and, you know, I wasn't allowed to cut my hair the day I turned up with cut hair. After my grandmother died, my mother was went silent on me and she looked at me as I came in, and I had my hair cut off. I'd draw my own money out of my bank account. And she said your grandmother wouldn't like that. I was like, No, she wouldn't. Um but I never fit. I never fitted [00:24:30] the feminine image, so I was always a tomboy. Um, I got into lots of trouble through the conservative Christian, um, evangelical movement. I was a musician, so I would turn up in men's attire. I would, I would. I I remember one youth for Christ already. I was wearing a tie and I was having a good time on a cornet, as you do, um, and and and and remember being a cornet player in a Salvation Army band. You're in a male domain as well. So I was quite comfortable [00:25:00] in that, Um, But this woman young woman came up to me at the end of this of Christ rally and said, Jesus is asking me to talk to you that you have not accepted your femininity. And I mean, I laugh now. I was devastated because I didn't know I was wrong because I was just doing what I do. And I loved it. I loved it at school because we had school ties. I loved wearing the school tie This bloody gold and blue thing. Um [00:25:30] oh, God and I. So I was devastated, and I think it was probably the first time. It was brought to my mind that I really wasn't female, but it's only been in the last maybe five or six years that we've started talking about gender fluidity and and breaking down the dichotomies and and all those things. And, um, it was a really liberating in the end, liberating to me because I was starting to come out [00:26:00] and I then cut a long story short. The first lesbians I met, the church really cornered me. You know, like, stop hanging around with the refuge because they're full of dikes and, you know, and and people who have been abused often fall into You know, girls who have been abused often fall into feeling like they should be in a lesbian relationship, because it's nicer than you know. And they do that you become a lesbian because you've been abused blind, which is what I got quite a lot. Um, and I fell in love with one of those refuge dikes. Um [00:26:30] and, uh, so at 19, I moved in with her, the butch and butch piece. Do you want to read that to us? This is the narrative that you had with your photo. Well, I worked really hard at this because the the last bit that connects this is is that I'm an abuse survivor in my family, and I have a clear memory of locking myself in the bathroom at the age of eight, washing my hands, trying to get clean and saying [00:27:00] to myself, When I grow up, I'm going to be a man and rule the world and no one will hurt Children and and that stayed with me and that created a split in me. And I had a whole male character for me to survive the next few years. So this is how it relates to some of this. But is the rejection of gender and sex binaries and the acceptance of me expressed in my look choices, clothing [00:27:30] style, attitude and mannerisms? It is also the creation of my identity as strong in the face of violence. While growing up, some would call the splitting off into compartmentalised identities as mental illness. I have come to embrace it as strength, wise and intelligent, and have ultimately become the I who was all of those things in spite of what happened, Butch is therefore a part of how I see myself [00:28:00] rather than a separate part of the how we used to see me as ourselves. It's also a part of how others may or may not see me connected. Enhancing, challenging, creating, informing, identifying, entertaining, loving. Being 48 now 49 and nearly 50 being able to say this is who I am is the most liberating feeling I have ever had. I [00:28:30] think that one of the integral things we do as we grow older as we find better and new ways to connect and that part of that is telling our stories and telling them freely, Um so thank you for the opportunity.

IRN: 868
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ATL REF: OHDL-004353
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089647
TITLE: Val - Butch on Butch
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VOICES: Val Little
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Australia; Billy Idol; Blue Note Bar; Butch on Butch (exhibition/series); Cathy Sheat; DOODS (Dykes Out Of Debt); Diva (magazine); Eminem; Glenda Gale; Jac Lynch; Jenny Morgan; Jools Topp; Kapiti Coast District; Lynda Topp; Lyttelton; Melbourne; National Library of New Zealand; New Plymouth; Paul Simon; Pound nightclub; Recreation festival (Wellington); San Francisco; Thailand; The Drag Kings (Wellington); Topp Twins; University of Auckland; Val Little; Wellington; accomodation; alcohol; androgynous; animals; arts; binary; butch; confidence; dance; drag; drag kings; elephants; family; feminism; femme; hockey; identity; internet; lesbian; library; masculinity; modeling; monogamy; music; new age; parody; performance; persona; politics; poverty; relationships; school; self defence; separatism; shooting; single sex schools; sociology; teaching; tomboy; transcript online; university; visibility; volleyball; wildlife sanctuary; women's dance
DATE: 4 April 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Paekākāriki, Paekākāriki, Kapiti Coast District
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I grew up in New Plymouth. And what else do you want? How long were you in New Plymouth for? Um, until I was about 17. And then I went to Auckland University for a couple of years there and then moved to Wellington. And I've been here since about 1986 or seven or so? Yeah. So I've been in Wellington longer than I've been anywhere else. And when you were growing up in New Plymouth, um, were you at girls schools or mixed schools? Well, obviously mixed schools in, [00:00:30] um, primary and intermediate, but an all girls school at high school. Yeah. And how was that for you? Um, it was it was OK because I had, uh, brothers, So I kind of always had guys around me and they weren't a big deal. Whereas some of the girls that was sort of like, Wow, there's a boy. You know, it was a a kind of a big deal. Um, but the other thing is that my dad was a teacher at the high school, and he's quite an eccentric character. So, um yeah, that was kind of interesting. When people found out that my father [00:01:00] was you know, Mr Little and, um yeah, and so I couldn't really be too naughty at school. He retired when I was in my seventh form, and that's probably when I started to be naughtier. Yeah, what were you involved in at school? Were theatrics, or, um, I think I was in a couple of school plays, Um, but mostly kind of sports things. So I was big into hockey. And what else? Volleyball and athletics, maybe. [00:01:30] Yeah. And when you went to Auckland, what? What did you go to study? Uh, I think it was drinking mostly. Well, it was back in the day when there were no student loans or student schemes. So, you know, we got paid a student allowance and didn't have a student loan. So and it was a bit of party Central was out of New Plymouth, which was an interesting town to grow up. And, you know, um, not a lot to do. Not a very diverse kind of, um, little city. [00:02:00] So, you know, being away from home for the first time was like, wow, look at this world out here and then doing things like sociology at university. It was like Wow, this. You know, there's different ways of thinking. And, um so I I did a B a in English because that's what all my friends were doing, and that's what you did back then. But I really, um, enjoyed the humanities more than and I did better at that than, um, you know, English literature and all that sort of stuff. I hated English, actually. Yeah, fun enough. [00:02:30] And, um, were you out in Auckland? Um, no. But all of my friends were telling me I was a lesbian, although I did have boyfriends. Um, so, yeah, it was quite interesting. I had this guy, one of my friends at university, said that I dressed like a feminist butch, feminist, lesbian, and I was quite taken aback partly by that, but also quite chuffed. And secretly, um, and I also saw the top twins for the first time in my life, [00:03:00] baking on Queen Street. And, um, they sort of gave me this knowing look, and I was kind of look behind me. Like, who are they looking at on me? Um, and seeing them was just amazingly life changing. I used to go and hunt them down on Queen Street just to look at them and just think, Wow, you know, you can be like this in the world, and and it's really cool. And you came out then. No, I didn't. No, um I had some disastrous relationships with boys. Um, until I got to [00:03:30] Auckland. Uh, sorry to Wellington, um, and then finally left this terrible relationship. Um, and we just thought I need to be on my own for a bit. There's something going on here that's not, you know, kind of working for me, and then I don't know how I kind of got in wiggled into the lesbian community. I think I started working at the National Library. That's right. And the wonderful Glenda Gale was around and there were lots of lesbians at the library. Surprisingly enough, um, and so I kind of gravitated [00:04:00] towards them and then got into got invited to a woman's dance at the university, um, which I was nervously excited about until I went and I thought, Well, this is ridiculous because there are men here, but they weren't men. So, um, and I just it felt like, you know, this sounds really cliche, but it felt like home. You know that I'd found where I was meant to be. Yeah. What sort of age were you? 23 [00:04:30] or four? Yeah. 23 I think. And so then what did you get involved in in the lesbian scene in Wellington? Um, mostly drinking. Um, really bad, doesn't it? Um, I was doing a master's in recreation and leisure studies, so I was really into, kind of, you know, recreation type things. And so, um, one of the first things I did was, um, organise a recreation festival for lesbians. And it was back in the day when [00:05:00] there were lesbians. And then there was everybody else, and we were really into reclaiming or claiming our space and our identity so separate to being, you know, women or feminists. We were lesbians. And I think there was a real, um it was an interesting time because there was there was the separatist movement, which was all about, you know, hating men and denouncing any kind of, you know, straightness and all that kind of stuff. But there was also New age philosophy, which was all [00:05:30] about getting in touch with your inner child and all that kind of stuff. So it was a kind of really weird. I had these amazing arguments and conversations with lesbians who were saying baby boys should be put, you know, should be killed at birth and because they're all gonna be rapists and blah, blah, blah and women who have ever had sperm in their bodies can never identify as lesbian and all this sort of stuff. Um, and so, you know, the conversations would be around, you know? Well, that's kind of a Nazi way of thinking [00:06:00] and, you know, extremist. And how does it benefit us as a community and blah, blah, blah. And then on the other side, we were, you know, weeping tears for our misspent childhoods and, you know, like getting in touch with crystals and weird stuff. It was a very it was a very confusing, mixed up time, but it was It was an interesting time in terms of I think, the movement, you know, like for queer or for lesbians. Um, and it [00:06:30] it's kind of, you know, we look back at it now. I look back at it now and I kind of laugh and think, Oh, but I can and I also understand how important that time was because I think, you know, lesbian visibility was something that was so important. And things have changed. Now, I don't think Yeah, I don't know. I'm kind of I'm kind of torn because I do think sometimes I think lesbian visibility is, um, something that we don't see. Um, [00:07:00] yet, you know, things have changed. I think the younger generation have have made it far more kind of tribal. So it's not just, you know, separatist kind of communities that were working together and yeah. So you were talking about the 19 nineties? Yes. Yes, I remember those. I think we were in the same circles around then. Yeah. Were you living in a lesbian flat or Yeah, um, I had I sort of lurch from, um, [00:07:30] monogamous relationship to monogamous relationship. And of course, you know, being a lesbian moved in after a few months. Um oh, no, actually, not all of them. Um, but yeah. Flattered with lesbians and, um, then lived with girlfriends. And yeah, And you were one of the women's self-defence teachers? Yes. Yeah, I gave it a go. Um, part of my thesis when I was doing my masters was around, [00:08:00] um, looking at recreation programmes that aim to empower young women. And so I followed Jenny Morgan around doing self defence. And, um, she's one of my heroes, by the way. And I just recently told her that so I hope she doesn't mind, um, and got really just yeah. Got really, really interested and involved in it. Um, so I did did the learning. I didn't really, um, finish, you know, I didn't get fully qualified as such, but I did run some [00:08:30] courses for young women who were doing modelling school. And it was a school holiday programme for, you know, school girls that want to get into modelling. And it was a modelling agency, which I thought was a really great thing, that they included self-defense as part of the training. And, um, so I I was working at the council at that time. Um, and we just pop up there at lunchtime in the school holidays and run this hour long session and, um, like years later, I'd have these young you know, gorgeous young woman coming up to me and saying, Oh, I remember [00:09:00] you. You did the self defence course. that changed my life and blah, blah, blah. So, you know, it made me think even an hour of this stuff really makes a difference to to people. Yeah, And I remember you, um, getting in touch with me. I can't even remember the year now, But it must be, like, 12 or 15 years ago, and it was to for us to all meet up. I think it was at, um, Pound during the day, which is really weird, but a pound nightclub and, um, to discuss [00:09:30] this thing, this phenomenon called drag King. Yeah. Can you What sparked that for you? Oh, I think I've been to, you know, like I was going to pound and watching the drag queens and loving what they did. But I've always been one of those. I've always looked and thought, Why aren't women doing things? Why, you know, like I mean things like skateboarding. Why don't more women skateboard all that sort of stuff. So I'm thinking, Why don't lesbians do this stuff? You know, there are so many talented lesbians. Kathy, sheet. You know, there was [00:10:00] all you were doing stuff. There was all sorts of other people that were, um, you know, performing. Um and I thought, let's do something together. And I. I think one of the things I've always wanted to do was like looking at boy bands and thinking. Imagine some really hot dikes doing that stuff. Um, and so I sort of hand picked a few people that I knew were already performing. And, um, you were one of them. And I think that was because you'd, um you'd [00:10:30] won the miss. What? Was it gay Wellington, or was it called? Was it called the Miss Separatist Lesbian? No. So and, um, you know, people were raving about how great you were on stage and that sort of stuff, and you've always been, you know, out there and doing MC sort of stuff. OK, so you got a few of us together. Thanks. So there was, um I think there's about six of us because then people told their friends and flatmates and and it kind of grew from there. Um and of course, we had to have a meeting about it. We couldn't just do [00:11:00] stuff, but really, part of that for me, was about getting the mandate. You know that we could do something like we could organise something together. Yeah. Now, this is pre Internet. Really? So where did you find out about the drag king stuff? I don't actually know. Magazines or a trip to Australia or anything like that. Must have been from magazines, like, you know, like the English diva and all that sort of stuff. They probably Yeah. I don't know, Dr [00:11:30] Kings, because now we can YouTube it, and you can see lots of stuff going on overseas and their websites dedicated to it and so on. But really, at that time, we we didn't have anything to go off. I mean, it was happening overseas, you know, the states were quite big on it, and, um, so, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I just looked at the drag queens and thought, Why aren't doing woman doing this stuff? So, in terms of our own research about it, it was really about us coming up with exactly that [00:12:00] stuff and, um, calling it the drag kings. We were really fortunate because we could just grab the name. That's right. Yeah. It was kind of like a brand that we just grabbed and used. Yeah. So that that group went for well, off and on now, anyway, for, um, 12 years, 13 years or so. And can you remember the first shows and what we put into some of those first shows? Yes. Um, without talking about [00:12:30] No, I'm not gonna go there. I'm still traumatised by that one. I remember we will rock you, which took forever to get the moves right. And they were quite yeah, you know, um, but we did, you know, boy band stuff, really? Just parodying boy bands and being characters. Um, so the first show we ever did was at pound, and that was in 2001, I think. Yeah, I've still got the posters. So I've kept some archives of that, and I have [00:13:00] actually gifted it to on my demise. Um, and then we did our our first full show at blue note. Yeah, um, and I still remember the opening number was one I did, which was I'm a woman. And so I was dressed up, as you know, in this glittery, sparkly frock, and I had my backup boys. Um, I just I loved it. Yeah, we got a pretty good crowd in all those shows. I remember. Yeah, we had quite [00:13:30] an amazing following, actually. And, um, even to this day, you know, people are saying, Oh, when are the Drake is gonna do stuff again? And you know that people still remember us quite fondly. Yeah. Tell us about some of your main characters. Um, I. I really like parody. Like I like looking at how people perform and how they, you know, like people like Tina Turner. He's got such a distinctive sort of style about her and has also been done a lot by drag queens. So I thought, Well, I I'd love to do her, [00:14:00] You know what I mean? Um, and one of the highlights of doing the performance of her once was, um, somebody coming up to me afterwards and saying I could have sworn you were a drag queen. So that whole thing of being a woman dressing up as a man dressing up as a woman, it was kind of like this. Yeah, I was delighted. Um, and then I love doing boy characters, you know, like boy band characters that are kind of, you know, with [00:14:30] a little go and the piercings and and that kind of look, um, and there's something about doing that stuff that you do start to create a whole persona around it and start to become more aware of your own masculinity, I guess. And, um, and part of that, I think is, you know, in our society, masculinity is very much tied up in confidence and self confidence. And so that's, you know, like I Yeah, I felt like I got a lot of sort of, Yeah, confidence [00:15:00] around doing that stuff are the characters that you still want to do? Yeah, actually, my, um, my sister's partner and his 30 year old son from a first marriage. And my 14 year old nephew came down to Wellington on Friday to go to the Billy Idol concert. And so I drove them into town and drove them back again. And all the way we had Billy Idol just rocking the car. And so I came home and Googled, you know, youtubed him [00:15:30] And I thought, Oh, yes. I still want to do Billy Idol. Yeah, he's next. Any particular song Web will yell. That's the best. Yeah, yeah. Um, did you ever get any grief about the drag Kings. There's Yeah, I think, Um, in the last few years, there's been a bit of kind of mumblings about, you know, the, um, binary kind of thing that, you know, um, that we're not I don't know. Yeah, that [00:16:00] that's this is all, you know, the kind of political stuff and that that's cool. And I think as long as, um, people are thinking about it, um, that's great. Let's start discussion. That's what art is about. You know, um, at a recent thing, I did, uh, M and M number, which, um, he starts off as being M and M and cleaning out your closet and then ends up as Diana Ross going. I'm coming out. So it's, you know, stripping away of that kind of tough out exterior persona and actually being queer as fuck. Um, [00:16:30] and somebody posted a photo and then somebody else posted a, um, a comment saying that that that ruined the night for him because Eminem is a homophobic and blah, blah, all that sort of stuff. Um, and, you know, they should have just stuck with, you know, not had had my number in it. And I at first I thought, Oh, that hurt so much. And then I thought, No, this is great. This is really good, because I, I obviously was, you know, good at Impersonating Eminem, which [00:17:00] is great. Um, they have kind of missed the point. But then a lot of people kind of came in and started defending and, you know, and discussing and I thought, This is good. This is what it's about. And the drag kings always did kind of set up a forum for discussion anyway, in terms of what we were doing. And some people probably read us a little bit more deeply than we actually were, but and we went to Melbourne. Yeah. Do you want Do you want to talk about how we what? [00:17:30] It was for us in Melbourne at that time? Um uh, I was I mean, it was a buzz to be involved in something that was, you know, sort of semi international, I guess. And, um, I kind of and I was looking at some of the other acts there and thought, Gosh, we're so different. We're so we're quite unique in what we do and that what the characters that we do, we try to tell a story. You know, we did a lot of group numbers, which you didn't see a lot of [00:18:00] I think the, um the Melbourne ones were very much characters, um, that they'd created, and they'd just be that character. So, um, yeah, and and a lot of their stuff was very it was very Penis oriented. There's a lot, you know, like it's and it's like, that's not the only thing about being male that I, you know? So, um, I liked it that we sort of wore ourselves, but with these different characters. Yeah, and kind of playing. Yeah. [00:18:30] Yeah, I remember us all kind of noticing that because that was really the first time that we'd actually seen a whole lot of other drag kings at this extravaganza and that pretty much every every act ended up with that cock joke, you know? And and we do that occasionally, but it's not. It's never been a real focus of what we've done. Yeah, so, yeah, you set up this quite amazing thing for Wellington and I've got to say we did travel in in New Zealand. So you know, Littleton and [00:19:00] we were We were big in New Zealand. I remember my one of my highlights was actually the top twins coming to see us in Auckland. One of them, I think it was Linda. And, um, I just done Tina Turner and I came off the stage and she was standing sort of by the aisle where we went into the changing area and she was clapping and smiling and she said, Bloody gorgeous. That was a highlight for me. I thought, Wow, if she says that, it must be good. Yeah, you made it well, in the, um, but and Butch photo [00:19:30] exhibition, we took the photo of you in a music shop in town, and we've got a lot of albums behind you. Um, can you talk about the significance of that setting for you? Um, music has always been a big part of my life. I mean, I suppose everybody says that, you know, sort of grew up with, um, you know, lots of different music in my house. I had an older sister and two older brothers and a twin. And, um, so, you know, all had quite different musical [00:20:00] tastes. And I mean, I you know, like I have fond memories of of rifling through records and the weekends. And there's something about records that had, you know, you had your artwork there as well. The covers, Um, but I've always been Yeah, sort of moved and touched by music. And I used to, um, pretend to be, you know, musicians. And it was kind of my happy place to go. And one of them particularly, was Paul Simon. I wanted to be Paul Simon. So I was [00:20:30] I was Paul Simon and I would have confidence. Yeah. Yeah. So music is really important to me. And I love dancing, so you know. Yeah. And you're a DJ. I am a DJ. Part time DJ. Yeah. And what's your DJ name? My DJ name is DJ Bullet. And that's spelled BU. Double L. I TT And it's a play on the fact that I'm a tourist and, um, little L. I TT but also, um I was shot at the first time I ever DJ [00:21:00] Ed. Yes. Yeah. So tell us about that. So, um, I've been going to the dudes dances, which were the, you know, lesbian dances, um, that were held monthly, dikes out of debt, out of debt. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So the lesbian monthly. And, um, I always thought, oh, they should play this song or they should play that song. And I thought, Look, put your money where your mouth is and offer to D. You know, if if I think I'm that good, you know? So I did. And they said, Yeah, come along and do this, You [00:21:30] know, this first one. And so I was, you know, like, I was always listening to music when I was, you know, at home and all that sort of stuff and always dancing like everything I do, I just dance. If I was doing the dishes, I was dancing. When I was coming out of the shower, I was dancing. So, um, the music I listened to I thought was great and really danceable. So I took along my little collection of C DS and realised that actually, not everyone knows these songs just because I do and, you know, love dancing to them. And so it was I was shit, I [00:22:00] was actually quite shit and, um, didn't have a big collection, so I was kind of repeating some songs. Um anyway, so I was the, um where the DJ booth was. It was right by the window to by the, um you know, the road coming up. Yeah, um, but it was upstairs, and I was kind of like, bending over to get a a CD or something. And I felt something just whizz past my head, and I thought that was [00:22:30] weird. Um, and then Oh, and that night was just disastrous. This very drunk woman came up and said, You shit, I'm gonna bash you like she had to be dragged out. Um, I thought, looking back, I thought I don't blame her, but yeah, no, it was a It was a disastrous night. And so then on the Monday I was reading the paper and there was an article about, um, some guys that had been driving up and down Courtney [00:23:00] Place and Tory Street, which is where the the thing was shooting air pistols at bouncers and people were nightclubs. Yeah, So I rang the police and I said, Look, I don't know. It might not be anything. It might be a coincidence, but I, I have a feeling I was shot at on Saturday night. Blah, blah blah. And so they investigated. They went up to the nightclub, and I got this letter from the police that said, We can confirm that the pellet that went past your head was from an air gun blah, blah. Um, the the case [00:23:30] is now closed. But I had this letter, and it's like, Wow, this is a street cred, man. I've been shot at. I'm like a DJ who's been shot at so that then I thought, Well, when it has to be DJ Bullock. Yeah, kind of kind of harrowing, but perfect as well. I will frame it one day. So, um, you you've been on a recent holiday to Thailand or in the last year or so. Yeah, And [00:24:00] you went to stay or help out at a sanctuary for elements. Can you tell us about your interest there? Um, it's something I've always you know, it's one of those bucket list things, and I'd love to go and work on a sanctuary with wild animals and love elephants and, you know, and so it was a few years ago, a friend of a friend had been talking about that she had gone to the sanctuary, so I sat down and talked with her about how do you do it? You know what? How how do you do it? So she told me and she gave me a name of a sanctuary. [00:24:30] Um, and then I thought, I'm gonna be, like, the girlfriend of the century and shout my girlfriend, who also loves animals and is really passionate about animal welfare and, you know, preserving, you know, wild species and all that sort of stuff. Um, I'm gonna shout her for her birthday, a trip to Thailand, to the sanctuary. So, um, it took months and months to do that, and I had to keep it a secret, and it was really, really hard. So I presented it to her on her birthday, and then we had to wait [00:25:00] because her birthday is October. Mine's in May. So we were going on my birthday the following year, so we had to this long way in blah. So anyway, and in the meantime, did lots of kind of like reading and research about just the whole of you know, um, sanctuaries and and the treatment of animals in in Thailand. Especially, um, and so yeah, we went there um, for about two weeks volunteering, and it was absolutely exhausting [00:25:30] getting up at six o'clock every morning and working basically 12 hours on doing really physical stuff, like scrubbing out, you know, pools where the bears would swim. Um, you know, with little wire scrubbing brushes in the middle of the day in Thai heat. And, you know, it was it was, you know, and then feeding out, like, 600 animals, you know, through the day and all that sort of stuff, Um, and learned [00:26:00] so much about the plight of the animals. And also, like, the whole dichotomy of poverty and what that drives people to do. And you know, so, yeah, um, and then that that sanctuary, um, was run by a guy who was a bit of a prick, actually. And so some friends of ours had that were working there. They were paid workers there. Um, he had a big falling out, and I was just Yeah, it was all pretty yucky. And he was doing some stuff behind [00:26:30] the scenes that we didn't know about. And blah blah. Anyway, so we heard about this other sanctuary, which was, um, pretty much, you know, very small and pretty much dedicated to to elephants, um, run by an English woman. And so we my partner and I just looked at each other and said, We're going So we just planned to to go on to this on this trip, and it's just something that, you know, I just It fills my heart. I just you know, I can't actually describe what it's like to actually be around these animals [00:27:00] that I mean, they should be in the wild, But they've been totally abused and, you know, exploited for for tourists. And now they get to live the rest of their lives out and, you know, and freedom and comfort. And, you know, being looked after, um and they what? What blows me away is their resilience and just how that they actually trust human beings after what they've been through. And it kind of teaches you a lot about yourself and about other people and about the world. And hm? [00:27:30] Was it in north Thailand? Um, the first one was south. The second one was kind of halfway between Chiang Mai and Bangkok. Yeah, everyone should go. It's beautiful. And have you stayed connected with them. Yeah, absolutely. On Facebook. And, um, one of the guides there. This lovely woman, Marley, is you know, we we're friends. Like, I've seen her birthday presents, and we're always chatting on Facebook. And, yeah, so, um, going back to the photo exhibition. Um, do [00:28:00] do you want to say a bit about why you got involved in that? It's funny, because I actually feel a bit like a fraud in terms of I don't know, that I identify as Butch as such. And then and then I sort of have to think about is that kind of butch phobia? Is that you know, like, where does what is that? Um what? The reason I wanted to get involved is I saw some fabulous photos from a woman [00:28:30] in San Francisco. Was it? Yeah. And, um, just stunning photos of these, you know, supposedly masculine looking woman who identified as Butch. Um And I thought, Wow, that's I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like that. It was It was raw, and it was real. And it was just beautiful, actually. Um, and somebody said to me, Oh, there's somebody in there who looks like your doppelganger and I had a look, and I thought, Wow, [00:29:00] she's a She's hot. Well, that's great. Um, so when I saw that you were doing it, I thought, Oh, look, I really want to support it. And, um, like, I don't Yeah, it's interesting, because when I came out, it was you had to be one or the other, and if you were or you had to be female, but one or the other, Um, if you were, you were quite marginalised, actually, and there was a lot of crap that kind of went around, you know, woman [00:29:30] who did look straight. You know, I'm doing air quotes. Um, but I've always identified as a tomboy. I always and, um so if there was, you know, there is a continuum. Um, So I'm kind of at the at the boyish end of it, and, um, androgynous and tomboy and and I've always been attracted to, um, not necessarily physically or sexually, but attracted to masculine kind of women. Yeah, [00:30:00] and then it makes me think about what is masculine. And, you know, we all have both or, you know, and all different shades of of that stuff. Um, so I thought you know, it's it's good for me to to do this sort of stuff just to have more of a self exploration, I guess, yeah.

IRN: 867
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089646
TITLE: Mo - Butch on Butch
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Moana Parsons
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland Pride Festival; Buddhism; Butch on Butch (exhibition/series); Department of Corrections; Diversity Liaison Officers (police); Dunedin; Jac Lynch; Kaitaia; Out in the Park (Wellington); Out in the Square (Wellington); Out in the carPark (Wellington); Porirua; Pride; Pride parade (Auckland); Quakers; Reclaim the Night; Wellington; Whanganui; acceptance; accomodation; baby dyke; butch; clothing; coming out; community; dance; diversity; dyke; employment; feminism; flatting; friends; law; lesbian and gay balls; long distance relationship; parents; physical education; police; prisoners; protest; relationships; school; soccer; sport; stereotypes; study; support; transcript online; uniform; university; values; waka ama
DATE: 4 April 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Mo talks about growing up in Kaitaia, being a Diversity Liaison Officer with the New Zealand Police and marching for the first time in uniform at the Auckland Pride Parade.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, well, I was born in Wanganui and moved to when I was four and grew up in in the far north. How long did you live in Kaita Till I left home at the age of 18. And what was some of your memories of living up in the far north? Um, far north is a beautiful place. I absolutely love it. I like going back to visit there. But by the time I left, I was ready to leave. And, um, it's an interesting place [00:00:30] because it's it's quite a depressed area socially, um, and a difficult place to kind of get ahead in life, I guess. And so I knew that in order to make a life for myself, I needed to get out of there and leave there. So I'm happy to go back and to visit and to, you know, go to the beaches and all the beautiful places because it is absolutely stunning up there. But, um, it's not a place that I, um that I want to live. Were you living rurally or in town? [00:01:00] In town, in itself, right on the edge of town. Though the house that we were in, um looked out across the paddock towards 90 mile beach. So it's sort of flat from our back fence. You could see all the way out to the sand dunes. Um, so you couldn't see the sea, But on quite nights, you could hear the surf from our place. And were you one of those kids that made the most of living by the beach or Yeah, absolutely. We spent heaps of time at the beach, and, um, my parents were into sailing, so we spent a lot [00:01:30] of time on the water as well. Um, and I had my mates. A lot of my mates were out in the country. And so a lot of, you know, horsey time and stuff like that. Horsey time time horse riding, motorbike, riding, mucking around on the farms. Yeah. So who's who's in Kaita now? In your family? Uh, just my mom. She lives in a just out of, um, yeah, up a long driveway miles from anywhere, and you get to go back and see her a bit. [00:02:00] I try to Yeah, yeah, but, um, it's easier for her to come down here to visit us with the kids and everything than for us to sort of trap everyone up there. Yeah. So how was school for you in terms of, um, yeah, just enjoying it. Having a lot of friends and, uh yeah, because is a small town and your schooling options are limited. Basically, I went to primary, and then I went to intermediate, and then I went to college, and your whole peer group moves with you, so you might get a few people [00:02:30] that come and go and sort of, um, drop in and out. But by and large, the group that you start at Kindy with is the group that you sort of follow all the way through your schooling. So, um, by the time we got to college, we had a pretty tight sort of group of friends and that that's that's sort of how it was. For I have. From what I could see for most people, you had your group of core group of sort of, you know, 8 to 10 people. Um and then there were different different groups within that. [00:03:00] Like, we had a really big third form year. There were about three or 400 of us. Um and so you just form your little clicks. And those were the group of friends that you then carried on? Yeah, through secondary school. And were you, um, an academic kid or a sporty kid? Sporty? Yes. Definitely sporty. Um, I ended up in the top stream class by accident, and for whatever reason, the teachers decided that they might as well keep me there and see how I did. My [00:03:30] name got mixed up with somebody else. And so in the first week in third form, yeah. So they brought They brought the other girl back into the class, but they left me there, and, I don't know, maybe they thought it would be really demoralising for me to be swapped back into them. So I was in a class that, um, was possibly slightly more academically. Um, yeah, higher than I was. But actually, what it did was it made me work harder. Um, and I'm I'm [00:04:00] actually really glad that I stayed in that class. And then there's some stuff that I just want to Yeah, um, but my school reports used to say things like, you know, Moana is easily distracted and, um could try harder and, you know, all of those sorts of things. And school was really just for socialising rather than working. And I somehow managed to get through seventh form and scrape through enough points in sixth form to get UE. But, um, I really was I did the bare minimum [00:04:30] to get through. And I don't I don't think it's necessarily because, um because I couldn't do it. I just wasn't interested in studying, So I was far more interested in playing sports and socialising with my mates. What sort of sports were you into Soccer, Mostly. Yeah, Yeah. Soccer. Um, what else did I do? Little waka for a bit, Um, and then just, uh you do lots of different things. And but, yeah, that soccer would have been my main [00:05:00] sport. I didn't play any summer sports. So when you left, where did you head? I went to Dunedin. Oh, actually, I went to Auckland for a year first. Um, when I left school, I knew that I wanted to join the police, but I didn't feel like I was ready to join. Um, I was old enough, but I just felt that I wasn't mature enough, And so I also wasn't sure that I would get in, and I felt that I needed a backup plan. So I went to [00:05:30] Auckland for a year and worked, um, first in a sandwich bar on High Street, which runs parallel to Queen Street, right in the CBD. And then I worked out in a screen printing company out in Mount Rosco. And, um was a screen printing hand and they tried to get me to, um, to take up an apprenticeship. But I knew that I didn't want to be screen printing for the rest of my life. So, um and that what that year enabled me to do is work out what I wanted to do as my backup plan. Uh, And [00:06:00] so at the end of that year, I quit my job, and I moved to Dunedin and did a physed degree. Yeah. And how was it moving from Kaita to the cities Auckland? I hated it was just too big. Too noisy, Too busy. I found it really hard to meet people and make friends. Um, I was flirting with my sister and all her cohorts, and so I sort of became friends with them, but they were always her friends And because I was working, [00:06:30] um, out, You know, out in Mount Rosco in a small screen company. Um, it's Yeah. It just wasn't It wasn't conducive to making friends and socialising. So in some ways, it was quite a lonely year because I didn't have my own peer group. Um, but moving to Dunedin, I loved it. Yeah. Yeah. Were you out? Uh, not until I moved to Dunedin. I came out to my parents, Um, [00:07:00] at the beginning of the first year down there, Yeah. Did that involve going back to, uh, my mother? I came out to over the phone. My father? Yeah, I actually I think it was Maybe it was the It was when I was living in Auckland at the end of that year that just before I went to Dunedin, came out to my mother over the phone and my father that summer, before I went to Dunedin, I came out to him. Yeah, and [00:07:30] what was their reaction? Um, my dad was really funny and and I came out to him in a really weird way. I had a T shirt that said, um, dyke, but it was written in the Nike style with the swoosh tick underneath it. And And I put it on and he was out the back crushing beer cans, and I put it on. I went out there and I said to him, Uh, I need to tell you something really personal about myself. And then I just [00:08:00] showed him the t-shirt and he just went, Oh, one of the guys at the squash clubs got one of them, and it says something else. I can't even remember what it was. And that was it. And that was That was the only thing that that was the only conversation we've ever had about it. And we've never talked about it since. I mean, I'm I'm out to him and and it's just, you know, it's just part of he's met all my girlfriend, most of my girlfriends. And, you know, there's never been an issue [00:08:30] or a question. And it was just this really weird, awkward moment that we've just, um yeah, OK, that's done. We don't need to talk about that anymore. So, um, has he always been supportive of you? Yeah, absolutely. My parents, um, my parents are both Quakers, or they were when I was growing up. My dad's Buddhist now, uh, and we were We were raised to sort of be open minded and that, and they were very open minded and just, [00:09:00] um You know, one of the the values of our family, I guess, is, uh, acceptance of all people and that there is good in all people. Um, and that you don't You don't judge people, um, you know, by their race, their religion or or whatever. Yeah, when you were growing up in, Did you know gay people? No. I think I was the only gay in the village. And, um, my girlfriend at the time as well, she was obviously gay as well. You had a girlfriend at high school? Yeah. Yeah. So, [00:09:30] um, we were really good friends. Best mates. Um, and we met in third form, so she'd come over from, um, one of the other schools, uh, and started at, um, college. And we kind of ended up as mates by default. Um, because I had a good friend and she had a good friend. But our two good friends got together and became good friends, and we were left without friends. Really bizarre. situation. Um, And anyway, we just [00:10:00] we just hit it off, and we were really good mates. And over the years, our friendship just got closer and closer and closer, and then it morphed into a relationship, Um, in our sixth form year. So when you moved to Auckland, did you keep the relationship going or yes. Yeah. And And she'd gone to Dunedin, And that was, I guess, one of my motivating factors to go to Dunedin. Um, so we had a long distance relationship that year that I was in Auckland. She [00:10:30] was in Dunedin. Um, but it didn't last once I got down there. Yeah. Did you stay friends? Yeah. We're still friends. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And your mom about you being out? Yeah, she's fantastic. I mean, she just did what mothers do, I guess. Which is, you know, so long as you're happy and, you know, it's not going to be easy for you and all. You know, I'll always support you, no matter what. That sort of stuff. She wrote me a really lovely letter that I've still got. Yeah, um, but, [00:11:00] uh, I was never concerned about how she might react or respond um it was my dad that I wasn't sure. You know, I had absolutely no idea what he would think or how he would react. What about other people, if you your siblings? Yeah. My sister. Um, yeah, she's never It's never been an issue for her. Yeah, they never had any idea before then, Uh, and [00:11:30] I think that's probably one of the reasons that it wasn't an issue, because I think they all knew, you know, because we spent every minute together outside of school and at school as well. Um, and so it wouldn't It wouldn't have surprised them at all. I don't think they knew as such. Um, but it was more that I was just confirming it for them. Yeah. So people at school weren't giving you heaps about it. They weren't seeing that you guys were together? No. Well, we didn't think [00:12:00] so, But then again, would people have, you know, questioned it or suspected it? I don't know. Um we thought we were pretty good at keeping it. Um, yeah, under the radar, whether we did or not. I don't know. I've never had any retrospective conversations with my peer group that I was at school. I. I mean, I kind of I still I do keep, um I'm still Facebook friends with a few people from that time, but we've all gone to different, you know, parts of [00:12:30] the country and and world as well. So we're not We don't sort of remain in close contact. So you went down to Dunedin and came out there. And you're doing a degree. Yeah. And tell us about some of the some of the things that happened for you in Dunedin. The was a great time. I loved it. So I spent four years down there, Um and yeah, I was, you know, I was a baby dyke, and I'd hang out in the woman's room at lunchtime [00:13:00] and, you know, go and reclaim the night marches and and all of that stuff, and I never I didn't go into halls of residence. I went straight into, um, a flat. And I was flatting with two other lesbians, um, and then met lots of people through their social circle. Um, and, you know, go to women's dances and, you know, gay and lesbian balls and stuff like that. I just I just totally immersed myself in it. [00:13:30] Um, because I hadn't been able to come out when I was, you know, living in small town, um, and didn't really have a peer group when I was in Auckland. So I just threw myself in a boots and all, you know, overalls and purple t-shirts. And although I never had a pair of docks, I never owned a pair of dock boots. Yeah, swap them for police boots. So that was the nineties? Yes. Yeah, that was, um I was in Dunedin [00:14:00] 94 through to 97 and after Dunedin. What happened? And I joined the police. So in the last year or so of my physed degree, I started the application process for the police, so I recruited in Dunedin. Um, and I was accepted into the police six months after I finished my physed degree. So I stayed in Dunedin while I was waiting for a place in the police. Um, and I guess I couch hopped around [00:14:30] my friend's places because I didn't know when I was going to get the call up, and I was literally waiting, just doing little odd jobs around the place. Um and then, yeah, when I got the call up and went to Came up to the police college in I packed everything up into boxes, brought them up with me, put it all in storage, and, um yeah, so I had to find somewhere to live once I graduated. Uh, but yeah, I, the recruiting officer, had said to me, You know, if you want if [00:15:00] you want to come back to the South Island, you might as well not bother applying because there's a four year waiting list. So it was quite clear that I wasn't going to get a position back in Dunedin. Um, and at that stage, actually, that would have been my preference to have stayed in Dunedin because I loved living in Dunedin. Um, but so, yeah, so then I had to think, Well, where do I want to live? And I had heard that Wellington was quite a similar city to Dunedin in lots of ways, just bigger. Um and I didn't I knew that [00:15:30] I didn't want to go back up to the far north, and I knew that I didn't want to go back to Auckland, so I said, Oh, I'll work in Wellington, so yeah, So that's why it took a little bit longer. I had to wait for a vacancy to come up in Wellington. Um and so Yeah, so? So I got the call up. And at that stage, I didn't know which station I would be working at. And I didn't know until two weeks before I graduated. So all my stuff was in storage, and I had nowhere to live, but I couldn't look for a flat because I didn't know where I was going to be stationed. Um, and I put my first [00:16:00] preference down as, um and there were a couple of women who I played soccer with who worked there as police officers. And they said that is a pretty good place to work. So I put that down as my first preference, and that's the station that I got. Yeah, given that you're probably hanging out with quite a few feminist lesbians in Dunedin, and they would have known about you wanting to apply for the police. Did anyone give you a hard time about that? Once I had [00:16:30] a at a at a, um you know, your your usual lesbian, um, party get together thing there was one woman who bailed me up in the kitchen. When she found out that I was joining the police, she had a really hard time. And it turned out that her dad was in the police. And she said that it had changed him and that he was an asshole, basically. And and I think in hindsight, I think actually, that was just about her relationship with her dad. Um, but she was worried that, um that that was going to happen to me. [00:17:00] Um, and that I was going to change. I mean, yes, I have. I think I have changed. Um, but I don't think I've necessarily changed for the worse. I think I'm just a different person because of my experiences within the job. Um, that I wouldn't have had if I hadn't joined the police. Yeah, and on joining the police. Were there any issues around your sexuality? Uh, it was interesting, because when I joined, I was living with my partner at the time, and I put her name down on [00:17:30] the application form and listed her as my partner. Um, and she had an obviously female name, and the recruiting officer picked up on it. And during the initial interview, he said to me, Oh, I see that you've listed, um, your partner as a female And it hadn't even occurred to me that that might be an issue that's in my own naivete, because I've been living in a little queer bubble. Um, and I just went, Oh, yeah. Is there a problem with that? And he said, Oh, well, [00:18:00] you know, because some people they join you just need to make sure that you're joining for the right reason and that you're not just pushing your own bandwagon. Yeah, and that that flawed me. And I was just like, Look, I have wanted to join the police since before I knew I was gay. Um, being gay is just part of who I am. I can assure you that I want to join the job because I want to, you know, I want to be a police officer, and he's like, OK, OK, OK. And um and then [00:18:30] about a minute later, he said to me, Look, um, again, I just need to check that you are joining for the right reasons and, um, you know, because, uh, women, when they join they they have a habit of, um they join up and and they're on the job for about a year, and then they get pregnant and they leave. And this is the recruiting officer, and it was just I don't know where his head was at. And interestingly enough, uh, a few years ago, I was on a a course at the police [00:19:00] college with a woman who had the same surname as him, and she was from down that way. And I asked her if she was related, and she said that she was, um, that he was her father. And looking at her length of service, I worked out that she would have been joining around about the same time as me. And I wonder if actually, all that all those questions were about him and his issues with his own daughter joining up. I mean, that's just me making, you know, you know, questioning [00:19:30] whether that's the case. But it seems quite coincidental. Um, but yeah, he was really He was just old school. Yeah. So have you been a diversity liaison, officer? Or if you've seen those positions come through in the police? Yeah. Yeah, I'm a diversity liaison officer. Uh, and I have been since 2004, uh, so 11 [00:20:00] years this year. So I went through in the first diversity liaison officer qualifying course in the inaugural course. Um and yeah, so it's a voluntary portfolio role. Um, and it's basically the diversity liaison. Liaison officers are a conduit between the GL BT I community and the police. Um, and it's sort of one string to our bow, and then the the other side of the role is more internally focused, uh, around, um, changing [00:20:30] culture within the organisation, educating staff, um, supporting staff supporting GL BT I staff, um, and also being a liaison between staff who are investigating crime and the LGBTI community. So it kind of works both ways in that respect as well. Um, because we've got contact contacts and networks that, you know, a lot of staff don't have, So yeah, So that's how that role works. And I'm still I'm still AD O. Yeah, and this year was, uh, [00:21:00] pretty interesting for, um, the police and taking part in the pride marches in Wellington. And, um, Auckland. Can you talk about your role in that Yeah, sure. So, um, So I went up to Auckland, and, uh, I'm currently working in the, um, at the police college, Uh, as a tactical option supervisor, uh, in the gym. And, um, my staff and I do a lot of the graduation ceremonies and provide a colour party. Uh, which [00:21:30] is, uh, carrying the flag basically. And you have one person that carries the flag. And you have, um, three people who protect the flag. You have two escorts, and you have a colour commander who tells the other three what to do. Um, so when when we were given the go ahead to march in the parade, I contacted the organisers. Some of who would do it DL, OS, and some who weren't. And she said, Hey, look, um, we'd like to, um, provide a colour party, um, to to go with the parade. If we're going to do it properly. Let's do [00:22:00] it properly. We're gonna march. Let's have the colours up there. Um and then I sought, um, support from my supervisor, and he put it through, um, the common D at the college. So the, um uh, superintendent, who's the national manager training and he endorsed it. He absolutely thought that it was the right thing to do. So he gave us the go ahead. Um, and we Yeah, we took the colours up and, um, and marched in the parade with with everyone else. And what was the significance for you of the police taking part [00:22:30] in the parade? For me, personally, it was an opportunity to push my own bandwagon, Which would that be? Yeah. No, no. Um, although, you know, I've never forgotten those comments from that recruiting officer, and and to a certain degree, it did feel a little bit like that. In the respect of, you know, um perhaps two fingers up to him, like actually, I can be a police officer and be out and and support [00:23:00] the queer community within the police as well. Um, and that's something that I've been doing as AD LO for 10 years. Uh, and it it just felt like it was a really big step in the right direction for the organisation, as far as, um, recognising and supporting our GL BT I staff. And And it wasn't to me, it wasn't even about the police. Um, and our work with the community. It was actually more about how the police supports [00:23:30] our own staff and, you know, recognition And, you know, breaking down of stereotypes and and any of that workplace stuff that may or may not have been going on in the past. Um, so it was It was a really big step. Um, we we were given the go ahead to march in uniform. Um, but we were not given permission to do it in work time. Um, so it was It was basically [00:24:00] you get yourself up there and then the police didn't pay for any transport or accommodation, and it was in your own time. Um, and there were some people, some GOT i staff who, uh, didn't march because they didn't agree with, um with that stance. But my thoughts on it as well. It's a step in the right direction. You can't expect massive change overnight. Last year we march, but we didn't march in uniform. This year, we march in uniform, [00:24:30] you know, maybe next year or the following year, um, the police will you know, say OK. We recognise that this is you know, this is needed and important for our GL BT I staff? Yeah, because there was a bit of controversy this year in Auckland. Anyway, around the day you weren't involved in that. I wasn't involved, but it happened right in front of me. Um, yeah. So what you're talking about is the protest action. Uh, yeah. So there was a group of three protesters who were actually [00:25:00] protesting, Um, the conditions of trans prisoners, Uh, and yeah, I. I mean, I think everybody has the right to protest. Um, the rules of the parade are basically if you if you're being disruptive and getting in front of the, um, in front of the what do you call them? The people marching. Um, then then you're gonna be you're gonna be removed. Um, and [00:25:30] we were given clear instructions before the march because there's always the possibility of protest and and one of the reasons that the commission of the year before had said no, I don't want you marching in uniform, as he was concerned that if something like that happened and we were in uniform, we would be expected to act, and it would all just get messy and untidy. Um, so our directions where you are here to march. There are operational police staff that are working the parade. Who will deal with any of that focus on the march and just March. And that's exactly what we did. [00:26:00] Um, and so the protesters attempted to disrupt us, and the security guards, um, removed them, managed to keep them out of the way. And I was really proud of the way that the police staff literally just kept their focus, stayed in step and kept marching. And and I think actually that showed huge professionalism because every every one of us in uniform there would have been wanting to step out of line and deal with it. Because that's what we that's what we do. That's what we're employed to do. And so to actually [00:26:30] not step out of line and do anything about it was really difficult. Um, so, yeah, I was really proud of the way that we, um, reacted to that and just OK, just trust that, um, you know, security and operational staff that are working. They'll deal with that. Um, unfortunately, the the woman who was protesting was injured. So there was a lot of flow on and and comment about that afterwards. Um, [00:27:00] but yeah. So that was at the Auckland Pride. And then, um, you were taking part in the Wellington, uh, out in the car park parade as well. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, we would have liked to walk as the DL OS in the parade, but we just didn't have the staff. And it was really just about timing. The the original date. We had a group that were going to be walking in the parade, but we just didn't have the staff there on on that particular day to be able to do it. And so I felt that actually, [00:27:30] we were better served to assist the parade, to move along in a policing role rather than to be walking in it. Um, So yeah, so we were there, um, for the parade. And, you know, we always the DL OS always have a stall out in the park. Um, so that's what we did again this year. Um, So you've had a big birthday this year, So you What was that last year? It was last year. [00:28:00] Yes, I did last year. How old did you turn? I turned 40. How old was it Last year time flies just before yours, remember? Yeah. So? So now you've entered, um, the forties. What does that mean for you? It's interesting. Turning 40. Um, I don't know. A lot of people said, Oh, you know, when you when you turn 40 you know, a lot of things change and fall into place. And I, I didn't think that that would be the case, but actually, [00:28:30] yes, I think I feel more comfortable in my own skin and actually less concerned about what other people think and more concerned about, actually, just, um, you know, making life the way I want it to be. Yeah. You live in a small village outside of Wellington, I could say outside of Palmerston North, and that's that's got a lot of your friends living here. How does how does that feel for you living in this sort of community? I love it. Um, [00:29:00] I had never envisaged uh, living here. Yeah, it just kind of happened, Uh, and I've got no regrets whatsoever. So we've been here for 2. 5, coming up with three years this year. Um, and I just bought the house that we've been renting. Um So I guess we're permanent villages now. Uh, and what I love about this village is it's just a little green bubble in lots of ways. And, um, and it it works like, you know, it's a community. [00:29:30] And I I don't think I've ever lived in a place that has such a close community, um, feeling to it. And it's just it's one of the last little you know, you're half an hour out of Wellington, but you don't feel like you are you. You know, you could be, um, you know, semi rural, but yeah, um, just just because I think we need to cover the butch, Um, the exhibition. But can can I just ask you, uh, how it was for you being part [00:30:00] of the butch on Butch photo exhibition? And, um, why you decided to be part of it? Uh, why did I decide to be part of it? I. I just think. Yeah, well, that's me. And and I, I think, um, you know, I wanted to support you in your in your venture. Um, yeah, and it was interesting, because in the question of sort of photos and where we were going to take them, and that came up. I thought a lot about [00:30:30] whether or not I should do it in my uniform. Um, And in the end, I decided that, actually, that's just one part of me. And there's lots of other parts to me. And I guess so, you know, I mean, I would have had to ask for permission from my supervisors in order to do that because it was a public exhibition. Um, and I just didn't want to have to explain it and justify it. Um, and maybe if you do another [00:31:00] one, maybe we could and and maybe I'll be braver next time, but, um, but I think the way that we did it was absolutely fine. And if, actually, if I'd had my motorbike, we probably would have done something with my bike. So and then we took the photo of you at soccer, which is great because, you know, that's my other passion. Yeah. And and I was filthy and muddy and naked, and so that was just like, Yeah, this is me on a Sunday. Yeah, it was nice. It was perfect for the photo. So [00:31:30] thanks very much, Mo. Thanks for the opportunity to be involved in your project.

IRN: 865
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_rainbows_emmy.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004351
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089645
TITLE: Emmy - Beyond Rainbows
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Emilie Rākete
INTERVIEWER: Ahi Wi-Hongi
TAGS: 2010s; Ahi Wi-Hongi; Aotearoa New Zealand; Ara Taiohi; Auckland; Beyond Rainbows (series); Department of Corrections; Emilie Rākete; GLITCH Youth Decolonisation Hui (2015); Māori; New Zealand Police; Pakeha; Parihaka; People Against Prisons Aotearoa (formerly known as No Pride In Prisons); Pride; Pride parade (Auckland); Te Puea Memorial Marae; Tino Rangatiratanga; Tiriti o Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi; Wellington; accomodation; activism; colonisation; community; complicity; dispossession; education; food; global capitalism; health; heteronormativity; indigenous peoples; kaumatua; law; mass incarceration; media; occupation; people of colour; police; politics; poverty; power; pride; prison; protest; queer; racism; rangatiratanga; social media; state power; state violence; suicide; support; tangata whenua; threats; transgender; university; violence; white supremacist violence; women; youth
DATE: 29 March 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Te Puea Memorial Marae, 41 Miro Road, Māngere Bridge, Auckland
CONTEXT: In this podcast Emmy talks about protesting at the Auckland Pride parade to highlight issues around mass incarceration, and talks about power dynamics within queer communities. This recording was made just after the GLITCH Youth Decolonisation Hui at Te Puea Marae, Mangere.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So I'm a 22 year old trans woman. I'm from Auckland, um called, Um, but I lived in, um, to for my whole life. Um, So, um, we're at at the moment in which is, um, in Auckland. So this is, um, not made here, but, um, like, I'm I'm at home here. And how did you like the? [00:00:30] It was great. Um, like it was really, um, kind of refreshing to be, um, like in a queer space with, um, like a lot of other well, only other like people of colour. Um, it's not something that we ever really do. Um, even like in organising as an activist. And there's always, like, a lot of, um like or, um it's like, Yeah, it's fine. Um, but it's yeah, and it's really enjoyable to be with, um, like other people who are affected [00:01:00] white supremacy in the same way or some similar ways to the way that I am. Yeah. How how do you see the issues that are affecting? Um, especially young people of colour, especially maybe young indigenous people of colour and, um young trans people of colour and trans women in particular. And, you know, like, what do you think are the some of the main issues that's affecting you? And, um, people like yourself? Um, yeah, I think I'm, like, speaking, like specifically towards, like, my experiences as, um, like a trans [00:01:30] woman and a Maori trans woman. Um, I think at the moment, um, mass incarceration by the, um, New Zealand Police force and the Department of Corrections are probably, um, to to well know that the two major forces behind mass incarceration I think that is kind of the the biggest contemporary struggle, Um, that we face at the moment. So I think that's what we need to talk about, which is good, because we did at the quite extensively [00:02:00] what was interesting things that came up for you. Um, in those talks, um, there was kind of a, um, constellation of perspectives. Um, which is again, like, it's refreshing to talk about this with other brown people. Um, because you don't get anyone being like, you know, the police have always been really nice to me, so I don't really see what the problem, because everyone has had bad experiences with the police here. Um, so [00:02:30] you know, no one's trying to say, Like, you know, my dad is a cop. Even if they do have, you know, relatives who are in the police, they should understand that the you know, the institutional role of those organisations is in service of state power. So what's been your experiences with that? Um Or like you know, maybe what's been your more recent experiences with that? Um so recently I was, um, quite badly injured during a protest. Um, [00:03:00] with the well, I got into the whole detail about it because it's kind of boring. Um, but my arm was broken, and so I had a police officer sitting on my back. Um, handcuffing me, which is is really unbearable when you have a broken humour. Um, and then they they don't like, let you go. Really? Because they they want to take this statement first and before they will let medics properly see to you or give you any kind of pain relief and stuff. But I think that's a, um a really common experience of people of colour, especially if you're Maori or pacific. [00:03:30] Um, and is that, um, you know, your, um your individuality isn't really respected by, you know, these, um, operatives. It's, um, kind of their needs come first. And if they want to arrest you, then they will. And if they don't want to, then they'll let you go. But you you know, you don't really matter in that situation, you don't get much of a choice. Mm. What do you think? Um, like, were you surprised [00:04:00] about the kind of community reaction to that happening? Because it was quite a public thing and lots of people. Yeah. You know, this is our community and stuff. So I welcome everyone's thoughts about what happened. Um, it's been interesting, Um, the different groups who have given their perspectives and stuff, um, people who have been really supportive, which is great. Um, [00:04:30] and the people who've seen rape threats, um, were less great. Um, yeah, but I mean, that happens whenever you talk about you know, your relationship to power. There's always going to be people who want you not to do that, because the current situation works fine for them. And it's not really in their interests for you to, um, kind of draw attention to the violence inherent. You know, in that system, because, you know, it's going fine for them. Um, so that was, um, kind of eye opening, because I [00:05:00] not that I was necessarily expecting to be, you know, badly injured and have to deal with the repercussions of that. But, um, I also wasn't expecting, um, you know, quite so strongly a negative response from the community, especially given that I was in hospital for, um, quite a while. So, um yeah, that was, um, surprising, but not entirely, um, surprising. Like, I think there's a long history of Maori, Um, in this country, when we talk about or [00:05:30] just like, a not even but just, um the way that we're treated. Um, you know, in this this country, in our homelands, um, the response is often real negative. Did you feel like people were sort of saying that it was your fault that that happened or, um, you know, it seemed like there was a you know, 22 kind of schools of thought, and one was that you should be able to express yourself and be [00:06:00] safe. And the other one was that you shouldn't do something that's gonna, um, make conflict. How do you feel? Like you can navigate that stuff because it's quite a tricky position to be in a Yeah, Yeah. Um I mean, at the moment, I'm just trying to get the use of my arm back. And so I'm really just kind of I'm trying to navigate things medically at the moment before I try to deal with kind of anything else going on? Um, so, yeah, I'm just kind of avoiding [00:06:30] it would be my answer. I'm just trying to not deal with it. Yeah, And you're still in, like, a, um, an arm brace and stuff at the moment. I've got a arm brace on and this thing because it must have been a couple of months ago now? Um, no, it was about a little over a month. Yeah, Yeah, but I still I still I still got another month and the breath True. And so, um, do you have any, um, like, what's kind of coming up out of this [00:07:00] with the people who are supporting you? Um, do you feel like, you know, what kind of good? Um, talks are coming out of that or like, do you feel like people are that it's kind of brought issues up for people or like, kind of raising awareness or Yeah, I hope so. Because that's what we, um when we, you know, at the protest, that's what we wanted to to do. I don't really go there In the interest of getting my ass kicked in front of a lot of people that just kind of happened. All you wanted to do was have people, like, talk about incarceration [00:07:30] in the prison industrial complex. And I hope that people are having these discussions now and talking about, um, you know, the police and especially in relation to queerness and how we relate to you know, these agencies. Um, I hope that's happening. Yeah, because it seems like quite a lot of, um quite a lot of the time when we hear people's thoughts about this stuff, it's often the people who aren't Maybe in, you know, like, for example, me as an older person, I'm not as likely [00:08:00] to experience that anymore as I would have been when I was your age. So we often don't hear a lot from young people about this stuff. Is that, um, you know, is that does that fit with Yeah. Yeah, I do feel like um, younger people. I mean, this isn't, uh, any kind of blinding statement about who cares and who doesn't care. But I feel like younger people often are more willing to talk about these things. Um, not that conversations with, uh, you know, unproductive or or anything. [00:08:30] Um, there's, like, a a wealth of knowledge that's, you know, coming down to us from our elders. And that's really important to, you know, have those, um have you felt people kind of being like, Oh, wow, we didn't realise this was a big issue for young people, and it obviously, is a big issue. You don't put yourself on the line like that if you don't have really big feelings and important stuff to say. Have you had people kind of being like, Oh, wow, this is obviously a big thing that's happening. Yeah. Yeah, some people have been, and I think that's really, [00:09:00] um, relieving. And for me, because that's what we wanted people to do was to think about the the role of state power and how it relates to us as queers. And and you know how we can reinforce, um, you know, structures of, um, violence. Um in a way that I think often doesn't get talked about or doesn't get thought about. Um and I think that's a shame. So I'm I'm glad that people are [00:09:30] willing to or more willing to, um, you know, talk about these things, even if they think that I'm an idiot or whatever. Um, I disagree, but, um, if they're thinking about, you know, state violence and the the racist police force or just the the deployment of racist violence in the service of state power, even if they think I'm wrong, at least it's something that is [00:10:00] on the radar for them. And I hope that over time they can develop. Look at the, um, and the statistics for now and the, you know, the history of violence in this country. And hopefully, um, you know, examine their perspectives and, um, you know, come to a, uh, understanding of of violence and race in this country, which is rooted in the the history of [00:10:30] race and violence in this country. I heard somebody say over the weekend that it was ironic that what you had been protesting against was, um, you know, like the abuse of power by the state And, um, you know, by the Colonial, you know, the settler government and that. What did they say? Sort of like that. That's what you were trying to draw attention to. And then that's what happened on the day. Yeah. Um I mean, it wasn't the It was a private security company who, actually, [00:11:00] um well, the whole company, but in any case, it wasn't, um, state employees who actually broke my arm. Um, but, um, yeah, it's It's maybe a little hard to see the irony just because, you know, I've got a broken arm. It's hard to find the humour in it. I guess not that I think that's, like, a flippant thing to say, because I guess it is. Um, I think maybe [00:11:30] it was less about the humour and more about that. Like, yeah, totally pro or something like that. Yeah. No, no, definitely, I am not. Yeah, we were also joined by a a couple of other people here who have been at the Weren't the cops demanding information from you and handcuffing you while you had a broken arm? Yeah, um, and we're screaming in pain and, yeah, my memory of, [00:12:00] um, my memory is kind of patchy, because I, I kind of faded in and out a bit, Um, while I was on the on the side of road. Um, yeah, I got handcuffed, but then I got, um, Unhanded again A little later. Um, but yeah, I was I was being, like, taking having my statement taken. I wasn't arrested, but I was, um, detained, I think, Um, but it was a little while before I could be seen by a, um, a medic and taken to an ambulance and stuff. Um, so, yeah, I definitely think that these are the state definitely played a the [00:12:30] state. The police definitely played a role in what happened. And I don't think the role is necessarily one which minimise the violence of the day. But they were not the the primary, um, purveyors, perpetrators. Um, that day. Mm. Do you think, um what What do you think? You know, as somebody who's really passionate about this stuff. Um, what kind of things do you think the community could be doing to, [00:13:00] I guess, Like just to help each other, to understand what the issues are and that not everyone is as safe in their everyday life is as safe as everyone else. Yeah, it's, um it's something that needs to be talked about as the power dynamics that exist within the queer community, because it's something that doesn't get, um, thought about a lot. Um, trans women like specifically I know, um, we brought it up again already at the beginning of the interview, but trans women are [00:13:30] extremely unsafe, like we're hugely subjected to violence. Um, our attempted suicide rate is like 40 to 50%. Um, that's like people like living trans women who have tried to kill ourselves. Obviously, it's epidemic. And if you're dead already, you can't contribute to the physics of attempted suicide. So it will be much higher than that. Um, and it's violence because, um, when you know when something reaches those proportions [00:14:00] within a population, you can't explain it as just, um, an individual decision or an individual circumstance because it's a It's a whole population who are being subjected to conditions which are, in my opinion, incompatible with our survival. And that's why we die. Um, and it needs to be talked about in all kinds of spaces in Maori spaces and queer spaces and, um, spaces for people of colour. And that's kind of what glitch, [00:14:30] who he has been this weekend. And so it's been really, um, really good to be able to talk about, um, the stuff with the community here. And I hope that the the community abroad in this country, we can take these discussions away from this space and into those wider spaces and talk about the violence, which is queen of colour. We're uniquely subjected to that. Our white friends and our white family and the other pakeha members of our community, um, maybe won't [00:15:00] have direct experience of because it's, um it's something that they probably aren't familiar with, and they're not they don't experience. Um, not, of course, to say that there is not violence directed towards all of us that's part of being queer is living with the constant threat of violence. Um, but, um, it's quite, um, it's quite a visible threat to a lot of trans [00:15:30] women of colour. Yeah, Yeah, definitely. It's, um the deployment of violence to against queers is unevenly distributed, and I think that the decision making power in the community is also unevenly distributed. And, um, I think that those dynamics need to be questioned and broken down and examined in more detail. If we're gonna work towards, you know, work against, um hero? No. [00:16:00] And against a society which we can't live within. Do you find that? Um, you know, it's uncomfortable for people to hear about if they haven't experienced it themselves, and then they, you know, like that it can be. People can just be uncomfortable with hearing about this stuff. And then those conversations can get sort of shut down. Absolutely. Yeah, it's really, um, it's always uncomfortable to hear about ways in which you can be complicit in the destruction of other people. Um, I mean, [00:16:30] like as, um, indigenous people in A We still need to look at, um, Global systems of poverty and the ways in which we are made to be complicit in those, um, like we're complicit in all kinds of, um processes as as part of global capitalism, which we don't have A. You know, it's not a choice on our part to to work within those, um, systems of the global exploitation. But we're still, you know, we still are, and, [00:17:00] um even though there's no kind of individual moral culpability for that, um, we're still, you know, we we're still, um yeah, the systems exist, and those systems are violent. And we, in many ways, despite our position of subordination and a we still, um, participate in the systems which are violent globally. Um, and you know, we need to, um that is uncomfortable for me to think about. It's [00:17:30] always hard to acknowledge the ways in which your daily life and the the way that you have lived and conduct yourself can be hurting other people. Um, but it's vital to acknowledge the the violence inherent in the system and challenge it. And so I hope that, like in the community, we can do that And really, you know, look at the the the deployment of violence in this country and critically evaluate the ways in which we may be perpetuating [00:18:00] that violence and stop. It's very complex that there's a lot of different issues that come into it. Yeah, totally. Um I mean, just in in there's a like a the violence which we were protesting the, you know, incarceration and the the New Zealand Police force. The violence there goes back. You know, 100 plus years. Um, you know, people talk about, um, [00:18:30] the destruction of as an atrocity of the, um, colonial era. But, you know, that was the New Zealand government's constabulary. That was the police force at Riha with 1600 armed men in a cannon. You know, there were there were police marching on mass on horseback at as well. There's a a specific history of violence in this country, and there's a specific role which [00:19:00] the police and the prison have historically played and like the deployment of colonialism. And I don't think that that role has necessarily changed very much in the 175 years since the signing of I think that, um I mean, the treaty and the Treaty Tribunal found that and never ceded sovereignty. So, you [00:19:30] know, if if we never said sovereignty, then why are we not sovereign? It's because the deployment of violence was used to make any kind of resistance impossible. And part of that was the use of the prisons at. And this is an because that's where my that's where my come from. So, um, you know, this isn't necessarily my direct involved here but in, um [00:20:00] in region. Then the people you know were arrested. They were nonviolent, nonviolent resistance. They were building, like ploughing and moving stones and putting up fences. And they were arrested for it and held without charge. And the government had to pass a specific act of legislation to retroactively legalise those arrests because there was no legal foundation for the, you know, the incarceration of those people [00:20:30] was they had to change the law after the fact for it to to stand. And then they were all away into the South Island. And most of them, well, not most of them, but very many people then died and, you know, shackled to caves. That's the The history of the prison in Aotearoa is a specific tool used to destroy Maori resistance to military occupation. Yeah, and it's a bit of a, um would you say, [00:21:00] like when we look back at the past, we can see the common, you know, we can see where things have changed, and we can also see where some things haven't changed enough and see a little bit of parallels and things that are happening now. And that's why it's important. I think in queer spaces to look at what hasn't changed. Um, and ways in which we're complicit in keeping things that way. Um, like, I love pride. [00:21:30] And I love being queer because I'm queer as hell. And I like I'm really, really gay. Um, I like I love this shit. Um, but that doesn't mean that the queer community at large cannot be complicit in white supremacist violence. And I think when the New Zealand police force is making 100 and 70,000 apprehensions in a year and 69,000 of those people are [00:22:00] Maori, just Maori. That's a problem. Because we're 15% of the population, we shouldn't be, you know, like more than more than a third of total apprehensions. That's ridiculous. The prison population in a 51% of those prisoners are Maori. 58% of women prisoners are Maori. It's like just Maori. This is a the system which produces these levels of incarceration. For Maori, that can't be [00:22:30] a coincidence. There's no way that the history of invasion and colonisation genocide in this country has not played a role in producing such obscene figures of incarceration. You don't think Maori people just love going to jail. I mean, jail is awesome. See the problem? I think what happened is that because we we you know, we have meetings in the which just means big house and then, oh, the big house. So we just rock up to prison like we here for the like, what's going on And then, you know, they just you know, when we go in and they just lock us up, I'm [00:23:00] sure that's probably what's just happening. No. And you see the huge disparities. It's the same. Every settler nation, like the indigenous people, have these huge disparities in health. We die younger, you know, we have more preventable health problems. More, um, longer prison sentences, more incarceration. That's quite a That's quite a really, really big issues that we need to be remembering what's happening and looking at. And I think it's important to think about, um, Maori [00:23:30] suffering in terms of the global system of colonialism in Africa, in Africa hugely, which does not get talked about nearly enough in the Americas throughout Europe everywhere. It's a global system which produces suffering and capital. Um, and it's operating here, and I think that even though in a lot of ways the, um we're a lot [00:24:00] freer to live our lives and not be murdered, which is nice. Um, there are other ways in which people are still hugely unsafe and we're not talking about it or addressing it, we're just allowing it to happen. And that's what it what would what would you see as some of the ways that, um, people in the community can support each other And, um, you know, worked together to make [00:24:30] more fair outcomes for indigenous, um, and other trans and queer people of colour. Yeah, It's, um I think it's important, Um, when you're organising as, um as pakeha when you're organising, um, for the queer community to remember in your organisations um, your obligations under the and to involve Maori and to involve people of colour um, be they or [00:25:00] Maori involve us in these spaces because we wanna be there and make sure that we can meaningfully participate in the queer community because we're not weird little trolls sitting outside of, um, these things going on and not having a role. We we're here and we're queer, but, um, often times we don't get invited to stuff or we show up. And it's not the kind of space that we can exist within without making a compromise. [00:25:30] And we shouldn't have to choose between being able to work towards an for queers or, um, being respected as people of colour or as, um, but often that's what we have to do. And so if you're if you're or even if you're and you're organising, then absolutely. You need to, um, critically evaluate and it's painful, but you you need to do it. You need to critically [00:26:00] evaluate how you're organising and how you are incorporating Maori and how your organisations are moving us towards. And if they're not, then you need to start moving towards that because that's the only way that we can conduct ourselves morally. I think yeah, so, like taking a a broad view of what's going on and what the issues might be that it might not just be that [00:26:30] all queer issues aren't the same queer issues, and they're affecting in really specific ways that you can you can find out about by involving in a meaningful way and listening. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Um and even if, um you know, just listen to, um us when we tell you about things that are, um, going on for us and how, um, how we feel in your spaces. Because it's important if [00:27:00] there are, like, about 30% of this country is not pakeha. If your spaces do not have about 30% of brown people, then you have a problem. And it's a problem that you haven't been addressing. Um, because we're here, we're around. It's, you know, there's there's a lot of us. Um, but if we aren't coming to stuff, it's not that we're not interested or that we're not there, that those spaces are not accommodating us. And they really need to [00:27:30] Are there any, uh, or like, what do you think are the other? You know, what do you think are the other kind of main things that are, uh, affecting young people at the moment? And like, um, what other stuff do you think that what other kind of conversations and, um, you know, actions. Would you like to see happening? Um, I think people need to talk about, um, poverty and decisions of economic dispossession because, um, queer [00:28:00] and especially queer of colour but all of us are hugely kind of subordinated. Um, in those ways, and a lot of us find it very difficult to survive and find, you know, housing and reliable food. And there's access to education. Um, you know, the university is, um because I'm a student. That's an area which I'm hugely involved in organising politically. Well, not hugely involved. I help I show up for the meetings. I, [00:28:30] um no, I I'm involved. But, um, you know, that's a huge problem, because, um, sorry, I'm holding up. Um, I'm holding up some people, so I will. I'm gonna move towards wrapping up because I need to to get going. But, um, like, even, um, this is I'll give one example, and then I'll go the university, Um, every year. Um, my university and I think most universities in the country, um, increase the fees that you need to pay by the, um legally mandated absolute [00:29:00] maximum amount. 4% every single year. So that's a 4% rise on the previous years, which incorporates the previous 4% rises. So it's a a compounding increase in the amount of money that you pay to go to university and on the face of things, that's an egalitarian kind of, um, increase. You know, everyone has to pay more. It's not specifically targeting Maori has to be 4% more in the same amount. But in this country, Maori are uniquely subjected. And, um, people of colour are uniquely subjected to poverty. And [00:29:30] so when something becomes more expensive for all of us, we're the ones with the least resources to be able to justify spending our money on that when we need to feed our families, you know? And so, um, a lot of stuff which isn't specifically targeted at attacking people of colour in this country will still affect us to a huge extent more than it will affect. Um Pakeha. And I think that's something which needs to be acknowledged and worked towards addressing. Yeah. We need to recognise [00:30:00] what the disparities are that are happening for indigenous people and especially indigenous, queer and trans people, and then work to make those more equitable outcomes. Yeah, absolutely.

IRN: 864
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_car_park.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004350
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089644
TITLE: Out in the carPark
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Adrienne Girling; Alan Kwok; Amanduh la Whore; Angela Wells; Bev Berryman; Celia Wade-Brown; Chris Rogers; Clynton Payne; Conrad Johnston; Damian Strogen; Des Smith; Elizabeth Marshall; Ellen Faed; Emma Anderson; Georgina Beyer; Jan Logie; Jessie Scherf; John Jolliff; Karen Harris; Kay Jones; LaQuisha Redfern; Lee Eklund; Lesley Bola; Lilly Loudmouth; Maggie Shippam; Marcella de Tella; Neill Ballantyne; Paul Boland; Paul Rigby; Ron Irvine; Shelley Te Waiariki Howard; Stephanie Garvey; Sydney Lehman; Tohia Love
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 2010s; ANZ Bank New Zealand; Adrienne Girling; Alan Kwok; Alan Turing; Alan Turing law; Amanduh la Whore; Angela Wells; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asia Pacific Outgames; Benedict Cumberbatch; Bev Berryman; Bicycle Junction; Body Positive; Canada; Celia Wade-Brown; Chris Rogers; Clynton Payne; Colour Me Kitchen; Conrad Johnston; Criminal Records (Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences) Act 2018; CubaDupa (Wellington); Damian Strogen; Day of Silence; Des Smith; Different Strokes Wellington (DSW); Diversity Liaison Officers (police); Electoral Commission; Elizabeth Marshall; Ellen Faed; Emma Anderson; Faith Communities United in Love; Fifi Fabulous; Fresh Fruit (Wellington); Gay-TMs (teller machines); Georgina Beyer; Ghuznee Street; Glenda Gale; HIV / AIDS; HIV stigma; InsideOUT Kōaro; Jan Logie; Jessie Scherf; John Jolliff; Karen Harris; Kay Jones; Kevin Hague; LaQuisha Redfern; Lee Eklund; Lesbian Information, Library and Archives Centre (LILAC); Lesley Bola; Lilly Loudmouth; Linda Evans; Little Miss Cinnamon; Love Your Condom; Love parade (Wellington); Maggie Shippam; Marcella de Tella; Mayor of Carterton; Member of Parliament; NXT15 - LGBTIQ Youth Leaders Conference; Neill Ballantyne; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF); New Zealand Police; Out at PSA Network; Out in the Park (Wellington); Out in the Square (Wellington); Out in the carPark (Wellington); Paul Boland; Paul Rigby; People Against Prisons Aotearoa (formerly known as No Pride In Prisons); Pride; Pride Parade (Wellington); Pride parade; Pride parade (Auckland); QUILTED BANANAS (Wellington Access Radio); Rainbow Tick; Ron Irvine; School's Out (Wellington); Shelley Te Waiariki Howard; Stephanie Garvey; Sydney Lehman; Sydney Mardi Gras; The Imitation Game (film); Tohia Love; Topp Twins; Toronto; UniQ Victoria (Wellington); Valentines Day; Wairarapa; Wellington; Wellington Cats Protection League; Wellington Frontrunners; Wilson Parking (Ghuznee Street); Wiremu Demchick; Women's Refuge; Zealandia; adoption; bisexual; body artist; cakes; civil unions; coming out; cooking; democracy; drag; drumming; faith; gay; gender affirming healthcare; gender diverse; homosexual law reform; inaugural event; internal stigma; internalised homophobia; internalised transphobia; intersex; lesbian; lilac. lesbian. net. nz; love; marriage; marriage equality; pardon; peer support; petition on historic convictions; pets; police; protest; queer; self stigma; sport; t-shirts; takatāpui; trans; transgender; transphobia; violence; visibility; wind; womens suffrage; youth
DATE: 29 March 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wilson Parking (Ghuznee Street), 34-42 Ghuznee Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Participants, stall-holders and the public talk about attending the Love Parade and Out in the carPark.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So I'm Karen, one of the parade organisers, and I've organised this along with Adrian and the rest of the, um out in the park committee. We're currently in Civic Square, just getting ready for the parade to start. It'll be starting at 11. 30. So we've got a bit of time waiting for all the groups to arrive and lots of individuals as well. So we're all getting very excited. It's already looking very colourful, Um, and lots of high vis jackets, but lots of feathers and pink and fabulousness as well. Yeah, and we've actually got some sunshine because this has been postponed a couple of times, isn't it? Yeah. We originally were meant to have the parade [00:00:30] in, uh, Valentine's Day. That's why it's partly called the Love Parade. But we did get winded off. And in Wellington wind, we couldn't put any of the tents up for the fair. So when we weren't unfortunately able to have the parade and everyone was very disappointed. So yeah, so this is our second run. It luckily so far, it's looking great. So we're hoping that the weather will keep for, um, the rest of the morning and tell me about some of the groups that are parading. Yeah, we've got, um, a number of groups, a lot of community groups. Um, with us this morning. Uh, so we have people like the, um, lesbian [00:01:00] radio show. Um, lots of other. All the youth groups are coming out to meet us this morning. Um, so, uh, the teachers unions, uh, lots of yeah, some of the other union groups as well. A lot of the sports groups, um, the LGBT sports groups in Wellington. So we're really pleased to kind of have we want this to have a really community feel about it. So, um, we're really pleased that a lot of the groups have still been able to come along even on the rescheduled date. Do you have any comments about what happened at pride in Auckland? Where, Where There were some protesters about about having corrections and police staff marching. Yeah, we've, um obviously, [00:01:30] we've talked about that a lot. Um, and obviously it's really unfortunate what What happened in Auckland. And it's created a lot of discussion. That probably does need to happen. I mean, we feel our event is quite different, because we, um we're very community focused. And so, um, our event is about the community creating a space for community groups. Uh, So, um, obviously, what happened in and, you know, has caused a lot of discussion for us, and it's obviously a really unfortunate event, and I think it's important that it is discussed systemically about what's happening. Um, in all of our organisations, really, and the different views [00:02:00] about that. Um, but we're hoping that today we're really focusing on the Wellington community, Um, and especially the youth groups and things like that, and about all coming together and just celebrating the kind of queer community in Wellington. Really? Yeah, absolutely. There are a few hats flying around, but it's better than gazebos, which is what we had last time. My name is Adrian Girl, and I'm one of the parade coordinators, Um, along with Karen and together we are called Cadre. And, um, this is [00:02:30] the first parade that we've had in Wellington in nearly 20 years, and so we just thought it was time to resurrect it. And so here we are, and unfortunately, we were rained out with in our original date in February. But we've come back together with Cuba and they're letting us open the whole Festival of Cuba this morning with the parade. So we're really, really excited. So what's it been like organising such a large parade? Um, it's been a lot of work. I would have to say, [00:03:00] Um but so much fun. And Karen and I work really, really well together, and so we just give each other a lot of energy and love it, and we get to wear fabulous costumes and just meet a lot of people. So it's We've had a really good response to describe what you're wearing. Um I, a fabulous drag queen named Marcella, who is one of our sponsors from a N le me her headpiece that she had made in Bangkok. It kind of looks like a Brazilian [00:03:30] carnival headpiece. It's purple feathers. Um, there's two pieces to it, and it's very heavy, but I love it. How is it going to stay on on this wind? I actually have no idea. That's a work in progress. So I am, and I'm being I'm a traffic marshal here so helping people cross the road when the parade gets to Manner mall and doing it because I love doing traffic and just helping [00:04:00] people get across the road safely. So is this the first kind of pride parade that you've you've kind of marshalled for? Um, no, this is the second second one. Although I had mushed her out in the square last year. So just down on the ball down the on the, um, last year. So And then sold raffle tickets all last year as well. So what was working out in the square like last year? It was awesome. Actually, I really enjoyed the whole day. First person to arrive and then the last one to go. So that's how much I enjoyed it. What was the kind of vibe like, [00:04:30] uh, it was a very good It was a very good vibe, actually. Like that different for someone who and not a not a gay gay person. It was. So it was interesting. Actually. There's a way to word it. Interesting. Hi. My name is Brian. Um, in front of us. We have some beautiful ladies. They are looking good today. And these three, are they going to be leading the parade? I actually have no idea. Potentially. [00:05:00] I hope so. because they're working at. So, um what? What What brought you to volunteering here? Um well, to be honest, I'm just kind of passing through Wellington, And, uh, I heard about the parade, and, um, I always, you know, I like to be part of the pride the Pride Festival, because, you know, it's, uh I don't know, I, I guess. I. I like being a part of it. More so than just letting it pass by. It's kind of nice to be like within [00:05:30] the community. I guess so. This is not the first pride parade you've been in Hell, no. Um I, uh, last summer, I was in the the Pride Festival in Toronto, which was, like, massive and really, really fun. Good times. Yeah. So can you describe, um, you know, why are pride festivals and pride parades so important? Yeah, um, I think that, um, especially for young people, it's, like, important, um, [00:06:00] for them to see that it's accepted within, like, the community. And it's, uh, like a nice chance for people to gather and, like, celebrate who they are. Um, my name is to love, and, um, I'm friends with some of the organisers. and I'm part of the community. So I volunteered to give them a hand. And so, what are you doing in the in the print? Um, so I'm up the front with Karen. I'm leading the way. I've got a drum. So I'll be, um yeah, [00:06:30] showing people where to go. And can you describe what you're wearing? Uh, sure. I've got a a sort of colonial style, uh, great coat and a sparkly hat. And a some kind of really noisy drum. Um, my name is Sydney Layman, and, um, I came out here today because I know Adrian, who's organising it. And it's also, um I guess finding my, um, inner ability to express myself on on this [00:07:00] kind of level. It's something new. And we're also here with women's refuge. So, um yeah, lesbian visibility is one of the big tenants. So it's Yeah, it feels really important. Really cool thing to support. Is this, um, the first time you've been in a pride event? Yeah, for sure, for sure. I've only, um recently, I guess in the last six months, um started dating a woman, and so it's it's all quite new, but exciting and good and different, and Yeah, it's great. Um, I'm Stephanie. Gary, and I'm with women's Refuge, too. Um, [00:07:30] I This is my first time in a, actually my second time in a pride event. But the last time I marched in Wellington was in, uh, 1985 during the, um, during the homosexual law reform bill. So it's something I've always been passionate about. Um, my grandmother was a lesbian. Um, I came out as a lesbian at a young age, and, um, yeah, um, but have just recently, I mean, gone back to dating women. So I've more of queer identify as queer. So it's something [00:08:00] I can really get behind. Um, and it's just beautiful to see the community come together in such a beautiful day and to celebrate ourselves in all our unique diversity. And, um, I just I couldn't think of a better way to to be proud and to to um yeah, just unity, I guess. Yeah. So what was the feeling in 1985 when you marched? Um, it was more sombre. Um, yeah, it was. It was far more sombre. It was, [00:08:30] um an overwhelming feeling of like, this is just absolutely the right thing to do. Um, the Unjust? Um, yeah, I guess behind it, there was, uh, yeah. The conviction of like this is absolutely wrong. This should not be happening in our country. So it's fantastic to see all the things that New Zealand has made. Like, if you look at the, um, the marriage act and, you know, and the strides we've made and and even even in contemporary culture how, um it's just so much more accepting, like I'm I'm [00:09:00] lucky enough today, I work in an office with, um with 444 of us and three of us are gay. And that and it's it's actually, um, you know, the reverse of of a lot of other places that you usually work at or places where you feel like you need to hide a part of yourself. Yeah. Yeah. So do you guys have any thoughts on the, um, pride protests in Auckland recently? Where? Where people have been protesting against correction staff and police for for marching? Yeah. Um, I think it's sad. Yeah, [00:09:30] I really think it's sad. Um, I think everyone should feel free to express themselves in in any way that you know, any way that I was very sorry to hear about the violence that happened up there? I mean, um, working for women's refuge. It's something we absolutely don't condone. Um, violence in any form. Um, so, yeah, we are looking for a peaceful, good time, and and it's about supporting and celebrate. It's about celebrating ourselves and all our unique diversity. So, yeah, it's just a shame that that happened. Yeah, [00:10:00] Yeah. I mean, um, I don't I don't have a huge amount of comment to make on on the issue. Um, I haven't been following it. I sort of saw, um, a few things, but, um, yeah, just in. In regards to to what today is about. I think a lot of it is, um, you know. So I was looking for a flat recently, and, um and so I was going with my friends, and I was like, Oh, you know, I'm not really sure, because, um, me and my girlfriend might come and stay with me. She's living in Dunedin and, um, and I. I went to [00:10:30] a flat viewing, and I was like, not really sure if I should even mention that with them and, um and my friend looks at me like once we left and I said, You know, I didn't really want to bring it up. And he's like, Come on, this is this is 2015 like if they've got a problem with it, then there's something seriously wrong with them. But and I do feel like we're getting that way that at least it's It's unpopular to have issue. But, um, yeah, it has been really surprising and exciting for me as kind of someone more on the on the recent coming out things. And I've expected a lot more resistance than I've had. Um, you know, telling [00:11:00] a work colleague and I was quite nervous about it. And she was like, incredibly supportive and just like asking questions like I was telling her I was dating anyone, and that was that was really nice. That was really nice. So I think a lot of today is about being able to celebrate with our community that we have come quite a long way and like there's there's still a lot that needs to happen. But as a as a general, you know, in New Zealand, and especially in Wellington, there is an acceptance that I think is quite exciting. Um, yeah, and it's it's great to be a part of it. Well, [00:11:30] we're on Civic Square on the fake grass in front of the city gallery, and, um, the photographer lined up the band, which is just ready to take part in the parade. And there's a group of amazing drag queens. They're not drag queens, they're goddesses. They're all about 7 ft tall, in full leaf white dresses where wearing wings. And there's a group with the sign of love, which I'll be carrying down. [00:12:00] And they've just yelled, Yay! So we're here from marching down to out in the car park, which is the result of a, uh, a weather aborted event four weeks ago. We're now doing it on a lovely day, but it is windy, but we're here and Frank here, and I'm here and we're marching for different strokes. Wellington and Frank. What is different strokes. It's a swim team. It's a GL BT I and straight friendly [00:12:30] um, swimming group and we we meet three times. We meet three times a week and we have a coach and it's a really good workout. And, uh, yeah, and and it's open to everyone where the beginners intermediate or expert swimmers, everyone's everyone's invited and your costumes in the parade. What? What are they going to be? Um, just start t-shirts that say, DS W. We're not all in costumes. We leave that to the drag. Yes or no to the drag diva. [00:13:00] We don't call them queens. They're divas. And why is it important to to be in such bro? Well, I think it's important to show people visibility that gays and lesbians, trans, bi and intersex, are all part of the community. And and, um and we're just really blessed here in Wellington and New Zealand in general that we have a very progressive, open and, uh, welcoming culture that, uh doesn't discriminate. And it's just, uh um I'm just happy to be here, [00:13:30] Paul. What do you think? It's important to to march, and, um Well, I've marched in one of the parade, which was the Mardi Gras in Sydney 20 years ago. And, um, it was the first time I'd ever thought about doing it, and it was such a euphoric experience for me. Uh, then I was, uh 20 years younger. Today, I'm an ageing new geriatric gay man. And, uh, I still march in the parade [00:14:00] because Frank wanted me to. He's a young one, Frank from America. I'm from Australia. We've both adopted Wellington, which is a fantastic city which allows the and encourages these parades to happen. So why not participate in a city which offers so much to all its members? Uh, it's terribly inclusive, totally inclusive, Wellington and, um, and if we don't do it, no one might do it. So we're here, and our friends are going to turn up later. They're just late. [00:14:30] Like most Kiwis. We're there in the early ones. My name is Freya, and I'm basically here. Well, because I want to be. Obviously, I'm a queer person myself. I said I'm also part of the fresh foodies group. Um, we're an online meet up group for gay people in Wellington. So yeah, it was just really about coming along supporting the community. Is this the first parade you've been in? It has, actually. Yeah, it's pretty exciting. Why are these kind of prays important? Um, these kind of prayers are important because [00:15:00] you're really I. I feel like that on an everyday basis. You don't really see a lot of people who are out. And you don't really get to see, you know, your own community represented. And it's really important to have that represent representation for people to be able to see, you know, normal, everyday people, But also really fabulous people. Just having a lot of fun being themselves. Yeah. So do you have any comment on the protests that happened at the Auckland Pride parade? Um hm. [00:15:30] Is this the one where John Key was booed? No. This is the one where there was a group of protesters that got onto the parade route and were protesting against that one. OK, I was about to say, John Key being booed because I was totally up my alley. But yeah, um, I'm not surprised that it happened. Um, that said, you know, the parade must go on. We're gonna have fun. We're gonna be out. We're gonna do what we have to do to, you know, make our community be comfortable with [00:16:00] ourselves and be confident. Yeah. So what do you think? Some of the issues are for kind of rainbow people in New Zealand. in 2015. Um, in 2015. I feel like there is still a lot of internalised homophobia just in the general public. I mean, you still hear a lot of slurs said among young young people, Um, and a lot of older people still, you know, struggle to accept. Um, the gay community. I know that in my personal life, um, even my family sometimes can get things mixed up and confused, and it can be rather [00:16:30] disheartening. Um, so I think you know, more acceptance. More knowledge, especially, is really important just to kind of address those sort of issues. So So what kind of confusions? I mean, what what what the older people kind of get confused about. OK, so I guess this is a personal anecdote. Um, but my mother is a doctor. And one time she came into my room and she actually said, um, so Frey I heard that black people don't exist. [00:17:00] They actually are just lesbians in the closet. And I've actually heard that more than once from a family member, and it just was very shocking, and I had to just kind of talk to her about it, but Even now, I'm not sure she entirely gets it. My name's Kay Jones, and I'm having to choose which of the many queer, um, groups that I'm associated with to to march with today and it's, you know, it's challenging. Do I march without a PS? A. Do I march with the I'm choosing to march with the the queer People of faith in the the churches [00:17:30] and religions because it's part of human rights. And I've been coming to these things and since the days when Des and Smith organised the gay and lesbian fear back in in Newtown and I can remember when it was needed for, um, queer visibility to actually change laws. And now it's needed to say, Hey, we're having fun and we're here and we're continuing to be queer. Do you have any comments about the the the protests that happened at the Pride parade in Auckland? Yeah, I think some people have forgotten that Pride has a history of protest and that for [00:18:00] a young trans woman to be, they're saying she's really concerned about seeing corrections marching in uniform when there are still trans women and queer people in prisons being subjected to dreadful treatment. I think the way that the organisers did not respect that and didn't keep her safe, even if she was protesting is is totally reprehensible. And part of it is like what happened at the the march and part of it is how the media handle it. And I think there's still a really big, um failure [00:18:30] to recognise that there are structural issues that need to be addressed. And I was really pleased to see that Kevin Hague and Jan Logie have had a bill. Um, no, not a bill. A petition that they're going to raise in parliament, talking for an inquiry into the treatment of intersex and transgender people because there are still so many failings. And so that was really, um, an issue that that's important now, I, I appreciate that many people marched in in the Pride march because, yes, they do want to show the community that are here, and there's really a lot of positivity. [00:19:00] But, um, I was really sad that, um I didn't think there was enough, um, respect given to to the dissenting voices because that's the thing in a democracy, you need dissenting voices and you need to make sure that they've got the opportunity to speak. And even if the march had to go around them or or had to, um, sort of pause for a moment, that was not a big ask, actually handling somebody so badly that her arm got broken. No, it's not a good thing. My name is Jessie. She and I'm seeing [00:19:30] a lot of wonderful people having good fun. They're all in costume. They look great. Very envious. At some of the high heels these guys are wearing, they just look amazing. They look wonderful. So W, which is your favourite costume so far Ah, I really like the the love, You know, both of the loves. And, uh, but I have to say these these, um especially that [00:20:00] fellow there with a with a really high, um, gold shoes on. I think he's got amazing legs. He's beautiful. I'm as jealous as anything. It must be incredibly hard to walk in as well They are. Trust me. They are. I couldn't walk. I mean, that's what I walk in. But he's walking in stilettos, so yeah, yeah, it's great. It's really good to see. So So what brought you guys here today. [00:20:30] We actually came to the market and saw all this happening, and so we've just sat down to enjoy it. Yeah, my my daughter's gay. I don't She's not here, but, um, I just I just love all this. I think it's great. Why do you think it's important to have such a kind of visible showing? I don't I don't know I. I think that [00:21:00] the more out people are, the more we we are, have it amongst us. The more accepting. Some people may learn to become I, I guess. I. I hope that's what's happening because because they're just people and, um and you can learn a lot from them. They have to put up with a lot of garbage. [00:21:30] So it's good that, you know, if they if they show a show of strength, that there's lots and lots of people out there who are gay, maybe people will learn. The people that need to learn will learn that it's OK, Yeah, that's what I think. I think it's amazing. I really love it. Yes, it's hard to believe I was talking to somebody down, down in the forecourt [00:22:00] and they they had marched in the 1985 Homosexual Law Reform March and just the change in attitude in in society since 85. I know. Well, um, when they were talking about because my daughter's gay. But my son is, um, my eldest son, anyway, is very anti gay. He's, um, claims to be a Christian, And so it was really [00:22:30] interesting at a few years ago when they were doing that march and my daughter and her friends were watching from a house and she said it was quite frightening all the hate that was out there and, um but it has changed, you know? I mean, when she was just a kid, long before she recognised that she was gay, or long before I recognised that she was gay, she'd go into a public toilet and and girls would bash her up. She'd be 12, [00:23:00] you know, it was just horrific. But the worst damage that has ever been done to my daughter has been done by her own family. So, uh, you know, I just hope that when these people's families can see the solidarity that they're they, they're not hurting anybody. They're just being they're just being [00:23:30] that maybe they'll come to an acceptance. No. Yeah, yeah. Uh, my name's Liam. I just come to support, um, the local community was going to go to the other event, but then obviously got council, so I'm glad that they're still going ahead. Yeah, it's just nice to be part of something like this in Wellington. So is this the first kind of pride event you've been to? And I've been to some in the UK, um, which was a slightly bigger scale, but, um, yeah, it's still nice to see, um, what people are doing here in Wellington as well. So So why are these things important? [00:24:00] And I think it's good to show support. And, um, have your voices heard. Um, yeah, and to just show support for the community here. So So, um, when you've been to other events, have you been participating or just just watching on, um, no, not joining any parades or anything, because, um, they've been on a lot bigger scale. Maybe like music and things going on. Um, so, yeah, but not not like this. So this is different. Can you just tell me what you what? You can see in front of me. Um, lots of people dressed up lots [00:24:30] of different colours and everyone looking pretty flamboyant, but yeah, it looks like it's going to be good. And your favourite person of it? Um, I don't know. Everyone looks like they've gone to town, to be honest. So all the all the beautiful drag queens looking in there pretty impressive. Must have got up pretty early this morning to get ready thing. We need to start our parade very shortly. We're gonna have a little from [00:25:00] the organisers. What we're doing is, as you can see on the left hand side to me, we've got the New Zealand Police Department. Say hi to them. No, say it properly. Say hi to them people. Thank you so much. What they're gonna do is they're gonna coordinate our walk. So as we go across the road leaving from the Michael Fowler Centre, we're gonna cross that road. What's over here? I don't know what it's called. It's a big road, but the police are gonna stop people from running What? [00:25:30] Wakefield Street. The police are gonna stop people from running all over us. Then we're gonna carry on straight up through the centre of Cuba Street. Do you all know this? Did you all get your email? Did you? Thank you. You've got to be responsive, please. Or else? Yeah, the lesbians did. They were the only ones that answered. Thank you so much to the lesbian community. We're gonna go from there straight up to the centre of Cuba Street where the umbrella is carry on Slowly. The people that are in the front [00:26:00] are gonna be following Georgina Baer and, uh, one of our lead sponsors from the New Zealand from the A NZ. What? What does that stand for? Does anybody know Australia and New Zealand, is it? Oh, you're so clever. But, um, everyone's gonna follow Georgina Baer and Marella and everyone say hi to Dan from Bicycle Junction. He's provided their transport so they don't have to walk. Then I can I just ask Dan that you [00:26:30] take it slowly goes slowly so that people can get visualised. Can we do that? OK, then we're gonna carry on up past the water fountain, and we're all going to the left hand. No, that's the right hand side here to the right hand side. Does anyone know where meta horn is it? Stay towards the meow horn side. Once we get to the very top of Guney Street, everyone is going to stop And all the girls that have got capes [00:27:00] We all line off that all the girls that have got caps, we're all gonna line up and there's gonna be a media pitch on Gus Street. So as you're walking towards, um, Gas Street and there's a little laneway that'll let us get into the park as you're walking down Gas Street smile a lot and make as much noise as you possibly can on the way up. Does anybody have any questions? No rage. Hi, I'm Georgina [00:27:30] Buyer. And I was kindly asked if I would, uh, please join this wonderful love parade to, uh, for as part of out in the square and oh, sorry. Out in the park car park, in fact, it's going to be today. And, um, it's just a nice way to be part of the community. And I'm, you know, really glad to be here. Can you describe what you're wearing? Oh, well, there is a, um, an ensemble of us who are depicting Grecian goddesses. and that's what we're wearing today. So [00:28:00] I've got a beautiful, vivid blue cape and, um, a Grecian style dress on with a fabulous mirrored head dress. It's just incredible. Thank you so much. Cheers. We, uh we're about to start, but first, uh, we have Jen Logie from the Green Party here to say a few words before we get going. Good morning, Wellington. I've gotta say you look gorgeous. [00:28:30] And today yes, you should know how can you miss that? And today is a day about love. This is the love parade. And it's about love for our community, love for ourselves and love for the beauty of diversity. And that when we come together and we see ourselves in all our variants and our everydayness and our extremeness and in our fabulousness [00:29:00] then I think Wellington should be bowing down and saying Thank you. Quiz. You make this city beautiful. And I suspect we may be a slightly smaller group today than we would have been originally, but I believe we are perfectly formed. You look absolutely gorgeous. And I was on the parade the last one here in Wellington. I was 20 years ago, and so much [00:29:30] has changed since then. Back then, I was in a black tutu with a leather collar, and now I'm a politician. The city has come a long way, and your gorgeousness just speaks to how far this country could still come in terms of acknowledging all our fabulousness and what that has to offer everyone. So I hope you all enjoy today, and I'm gonna enjoy being [00:30:00] with us through the streets of Wellington showing off you. OK, so I'm gonna count us down, and we can start 9876. Bye [00:30:30] we go. What we have here is the Wellington Queer Community coming together and celebrating the relocation of out in the Square to, um what is this year gonna be out in the car park? Uh, new And, uh, hopefully a [00:31:00] new start for, um, for further inclusion and and celebration. So what? What can you see who's in front of us? Um, queer people. I'm not members of, uh, lesbians. Uh, we've got, um, uh, representatives of the, um, public service Association. There's, um I hope to see some military people later on, Uh, just a cross section cross sectional representation of pretty much [00:31:30] Wellington's queer community. Uh, uniq just coming past now, Uniq is, um, the queer support group for you, Victoria University of Wellington. Um, and the students association Rainbow Pride for passing through now, uh, celebrating their community honours. Um, yeah, just to hold diversity. And of course, um, Lily loudmouth parading as a gorgeous self as well. So [00:32:00] keep a little on, sweetheart. So tell me, what's it like to be in the parade? What's it like to be in a parade in this parade? It's very honourable to be in this parade, actually, because, like, you know, I would say in a lot of other places around New Zealand that there's a gay scene or there's a GL BT I scene. But in Wellington, there's a GL BT i community, and it's very tight. And as you can see, you know, everybody's just made an effort, and it's Yeah, yeah, very privileged. Very privileged to see you as well, my love. [00:32:30] So can I ask you why you're marching? Uh, well, to celebrate diversity and queer culture, And, uh, you know, it's a great opportunity that the march is going on, uh, after it was postponed. And yeah, it's just great energy with Cooper. Cooper? Yeah, all the people. And so who are you representing? Who are we representing? The Lesbian community Radio programme, which is Sunday morning on radio. And Cree [00:33:00] made this? Yeah, I wanted it to look like it come from the eighties. I don't want any screen printed banner cos it's a community programme. It's got no ads. Why would our banner look like an ad? Yeah, at least be DIY all the way. So, um, what do you think of the breed? Um, I think it's really colourful it. It's nice. It's nice to see all the people out. Yeah. Is this the first pro you've seen? No. I've been to quite a few in England. Yeah. [00:33:30] Yeah. Why are they so important? Um, because it lets everybody know in the general community, Like how lots of people, whether they're gay or straight, um can come together and support equality and celebrate love. Yeah. Kind of exposes it to the wider community. Can you describe to me what you're seeing now? Um, pink balloons, gay pride, flags, people dressed in multiple colours or a unicorn? [00:34:00] Lots of people. Kids, um, adults, old people, young people they all just come together. Yeah. Um, that's pretty good. Um, what's it like marching in the parade like this? I was just thinking that it was a really special thing to be doing in Wellington after so many years of not marching. Yeah, and Auckland get to march. So it's great [00:34:30] that Wellington are marching. I think you missed all of that. Is this the first time you've marched? Yeah. Why do you think these kind of parades are important about visibility? And, um and just about, uh, being part of the Wellington community. Yeah, It was a pity that we didn't get to march in February, as you know, as part of our own fear, but it's good that we're still going ahead with it. Hey, guys. Hey. So [00:35:00] I'm doing a little documentary about the pride parade. Um, can I interview you and just, uh, So what? What? What do you think of this? Um I think it's fantastic. It's wonderful. Everyone should be part of the Cuba fest. And it's great that they're involved and supported. And yay! Go the gay pride. Is this the first time you've seen a pride parade? Um, no. I've seen them occasionally when they have their out in the park or out in the Civic was the last one I went to. So what's the What's the vibe? Generally [00:35:30] love LOVE love. It's a good vibe. It's the only thing that's just too little of it. Yes. Hi, Wellington. Hey, make some noise. Well, we finally did it and, um, played nice and we've got, um some blue skies blue skies da da da da What [00:36:00] did you think would happen if you gave a drag queen a microphone? She gonna start singing? Um, so I'd like to welcome everyone, uh, to out in the car park. Yeah, the car park. Yeah, I was, um I was born in the 19 seventies, and I had some, like, real, like life moments in vans in a car park, you know? So this is like coming back to my nasty, nasty roots, you know? Of course, I'm talking about the roots of my hair because there are Children present, and this is a family [00:36:30] event. Um, I'd like to thank all of my sisters. Um, hi, darling. What's your name? Lily. Loud mouth, darling. The one and only Lily love. Give it up for Lily. What's your name, dear? Be fabulous, girl. Beefy. Fabulous. Oh, look at you all. I love you. Actually, I love the attention, but that's close enough. [00:37:00] Hi, darling. It's my best sister in the whole world. How are we feeling, Wellington? How is this, though? How is she though ya? You turn to the floor to yourselves. You are all sickening. Oh, my God. Oh, and it's Marcela the teller. My sister in crime from one of our sponsors. A NZ. She's come down from doing her balance sheet to hell. Hey, Marcella. Have thank you very much. And we've got [00:37:30] cash over in our stand, which is just on the road. If you need cash, we've got facilities there. Um and it's wonderful to be here representing a NZ. And of course, we've got lots and lots of sponsors. And of course, this queen forgot to print her sponsor sheet out, so Oh, I know, girl, I know there's no disorganised like a drag queen. And finally, we've got Georgina Ban now. Georgina, you may not remember this. Who? Take [00:38:00] a bow. Enjoy your attention, girl. You've earned that. Oh, my goodness. In a flat in Hamilton in the 19 nineties. You were You were staying there with Elena and Vicky. I don't know if you remember this and it it's OK. This is no secrets. No secrets. Please. What did I do? Well, I was doing drag for the first time, and I said, Georgina, do I need a wig? [00:38:30] And you said yes. Oh, and look at what we've got here. Is that our mayor? Our fabulous mayor. Cecilia. Maybe she'd like to come up on the stage. Ray Brown, Everyone. I'm not sure what the honorific is. Your worship worship? Definitely. And, um, I understand you. You might like to say a few words to our fabulous audience. I'd love to welcome you all here. Um, everybody. [00:39:00] And it's just wonderful to have the rainbow community in Wellington. I'm Wade Brown, So I wore brown. But you do all of the rest of the rainbow so well, awesome. And Cuba duper looks set to go off. And I love the combination. Maybe that rain came for a reason the other day. So, to all the gay, lesbian, transgender, intersex far and any other combination [00:39:30] that we haven't even invented yet What have I missed. What am I in trouble for? Awesome! Awesome! Awesome! You add so much talent and colour and creativity to the capital. I am so proud that the Love Parade has arrived here in this amazing magical space. So I love the Lilo Library. I love the Rubi. [00:40:00] I think you're absolutely awesome of all ages and a million and one genders. Kiara, Everybody. Thank you. You don't really have to do the worship, but it's OK, really. But don't you like it just a little bit? And Georgian? Would you like to say a few words as well? Thank you. Yes, I would. You know what? 40 [00:40:30] odd years ago when I used to do the streets around here, just one block over. I never thought that I would see a day when we could come together as a community and share our fabulousness, uh, with our city and our country. And I am so proud and humble really to have been one amongst many fought the good fight to find us here sharing who we are and being loved for it. I think, [00:41:00] uh, we have a fabulous mayor of Wellington who has embraced our community always in her political career. And, um, I, of course, have been fortunate enough to be a representative, not only of the but in parliament, but of our gay community and particularly our transgender community. For me, we what? And while we have substantially gained more rights [00:41:30] than we thought we could earn, uh, there is still some way to go, uh, for some of our sector of our community, and we ask you to stand in solidarity with us as we continue, um, those we fight that we have coming on to us. But more importantly, since we have been a country that has led the way in so many ways, uh, we need to help our brothers and sisters and others around the world who are not enjoying the freedoms and liberties that we enjoy [00:42:00] here. So thank you all for showing your support. Uh, thank you to everyone who's, uh, had us as part of the Cuba thing, but this is out in the car park. And that was the love parade. Uh, so my name is Maggie Shippen. I'm here with inside out. And the reason why that I'm with inside out is because, um, I really enjoy uh, youth [00:42:30] based work, especially in the, um, queer community. Um, and I'm also, uh, starting with schools out as well. Um, and I think that it's, um, quite important to, I guess, further, um, queer support in the youth community. Yeah. So what does it inside out Do? Um, So they run, um, Q SAS around New Zealand. Uh, we also do the day [00:43:00] of silence. Um, and a whole bunch of different that we have. Um, yeah, that's what we do. What is the day of silence? The day of silence is where we recognise transphobia and homophobia. And, um, it's a way of saying that it's not OK. And, um, I guess because silence is more, um, it's not. It's more of a peaceful protest [00:43:30] rather than overtly, you know, being out there. Yeah. So is this the first pride event you've been? No. No. Um, I've been to two out in the squares. Um, I've been to the next conference up in Auckland. Um, I'm pretty involved. Yeah, I. I really enjoy it. It's a good environment. So can you, um, give me a taste of the kind of vibe? What? How does it feel at this one here? [00:44:00] Um, I, I think it's quite bubbly. And, um, because it's got a whole bunch of different things here. Um, I just I I love it. It's plain and simple. Yeah. What do you reckon? The, um the biggest challenges facing rainbow people are in New Zealand in 2015. I'd have to say, um, for myself, it would be [00:44:30] internal homophobia and transphobia and that sort of thing. Um, because, you know, coming out to yourself is the biggest part. Um, and it can take even after you've come out to all of your friends and that sort of thing. You're still continuing that, um, coming out process to yourself. Um, and it continues throughout your life. Um, I think that's the biggest biggest thing. Yeah, Um, I'm Daisy, and I'm here because I'm here because I'm queer. [00:45:00] That's pretty much all there is to it. Yeah. So, Daisy, um, which group are you involved with? Uh, so I go to schools out? Yeah, on Thursday after school. What is that? So it's a group, and it's for, like, queer youth, and we come along and there's food and we talk about who we are, and you know, all that stuff, and it's just kind of a nice place. And it's really supportive. And everyone's really nice. And yeah. So how long have you been going? Um, not that long, actually. Only about since [00:45:30] the start of the term. Maybe a little bit later. Yeah. And how did you find out about it? Well, a friend of mine went and they were like, It's really cool. So I was like, I'll come along and find out for myself. And so is this your first kind of like fried event? Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yeah. And have you found it? It's It's really nice. It's a really nice atmosphere. Everyone's, you know, really happy. And I like the performance earlier. Can you describe what you're seeing at the moment? Um oh, that's there's [00:46:00] a lot of people and they all look really happy. And it seems like everyone's just kind of, you know, enjoying themselves, and everyone's got the same idea in mind. We're all here to have fun, and yeah, So would you have, like, a message for somebody that hasn't found somewhere like schools out? You know, um, why, Why go? Uh, well, it's just It's really good for support and just to see, meet lots of people who are like you and are going through the same stuff that you are. And, um, you know, [00:46:30] just have a fun time with people who are like you. I'm John and this is my partner, DES, shortly to be my husband. And, um, we've always been associated with the gay lesbian Fair. DES, in fact, was one of the prime movers when it started in in the Newtown School. And it was a wonderful opportunity to reassess where we are and to take advantage of the fact that this country has come such a long way since 1986. Well, I'd like to [00:47:00] thank all the people who work very hard to get all this together. I think it's great what they've done. And we do feel both John and myself. Visibility is important, and this is a way of being visible and also having fun. And this is not only for gay lesbians or GL BT community, but for all our friends as well. And I think that in itself is worth supporting. So De you are part of the founding, uh, gay and lesbian fear in Wellington, You're the founding father. How [00:47:30] does this compare to then? How? How have attitudes changed attitudes from, uh, because I can remember very clearly the very first fear when we did have opposition, Uh, coming from what we call the t-shirt boys. These were muscle boys who wore T shirts Gay plus gay eagles, AIDS. And this is, uh, prior to homosexual law reform. So the first fair was in 1986. Uh, that was in March, and [00:48:00] the law was actually passed on the ninth of July 1986 that the event was called a fair for fair law. And but we did have a fun day, but it was all held in the Newtown School Hall. After some years, that would be expanded out to the playground. And it grew and grew. And finally, on the 10th fair, Uh, John did say, Well, uh, might be divorce if we go on because running it on my [00:48:30] own, it was like I would start at about August getting out and you didn't have computers. So everything was by phone trees, and it was quite a lot of work, but worthwhile. Was it the same diversity of groups that were in the in the fear back then. Uh, well, we probably was, but not as visible. And, uh, there was distinctly gay men and lesbians, and sometimes we were bisexual. There were [00:49:00] moments when you sort of had to play it cool politically. Yeah. And, uh, it was Yes, it was. Um, yeah, it was fun. We did have one fear with the top twins, and that that was a real bonus, because that drew a lot of people. And people like the top twins have created a a lot of goodwill for the GL BT community. And you said very briefly at [00:49:30] the start that you're getting married on the 10th anniversary of our civil union. So civil unions passed in 2005. So right at the start, you were civil unions. And now now you're getting married. That's right. First of May. Our civil union certificate is CU one. It was the very first one in New Zealand. The ceremony. So are you planning anything kind of large or low key or? Oh, no. We're always [00:50:00] discreet. Well, it was going to be it was going to be small. Uh, Yeah, I'm a volunteer guide at Zia, and I did feel that was a good idea to help Zaia with their funding by having it there So it will be held there on the first of May. And they have limited space, which is perhaps a good thing. So are you having performance? Or I think [00:50:30] we'll sort of keep that under our hat at the moment. Oh, I don't know. We could say a little bit because it's growing and it could be a lot of fun. It will be a lot of fun, but the precise details have yet to be worked out. Why do you think? Uh, something like the parade and the fear is important? Well, as I said before visibility and also of us getting together and politically that that's also important. [00:51:00] Uh, it's we still have work to do as Georgina by said, Who's a wonderful worker? Uh, well speaker. And as Georgina Baer said, there's still work to be done in our community. There's a lot of work to be done for transgender people, and by getting together and being visible and also hearing someone like Georgina Barr that all helps. Can you describe what you're seeing at the moment. What we're seeing at the moment is a [00:51:30] lot of fun. Yeah, a comedia de la, the Italian type of theatre and a street theatre. And and the costuming is marvellous. And you got these people further down the road who look like Yeah, skeletons, They they've got these amazing costumes on. This is wonderful electric. Something rather contraption with them full of music. Fabulous. And that's rather nice chest coming up here, isn't it? Oh, yes, yes, yes. It's better to be a [00:52:00] That always helps are males. So my name is Leslie Bola, and I'm here supporting very positive stall today. Yeah, I'm boy Roy Williams, and I'm the same. I'm here supporting the gay community. Wellington. Did you guys march in the street? No, no, no. We missed out my blood. My driver was very slow this morning because we had a big party last night, so we woke up late, But anyway, we're here. [00:52:30] And so you're on a stall this afternoon? Yes, I am. We have a few friends already. Volunteers for body positive. So we're just rotating, trying to get out the message out to everyone to support people living with HIV. And how is that going? Is there still kind of stigma and discrimination in the community? I think one of the big problems we have in Wellington that's my own observation is there's still self self stigma within every individual just to walk through that door, [00:53:00] to go up to the office to get the blood test. But people are slowly, slowly, slowly coming out here to be happy. Why do you think this kind of visibility is so important? I think it's an environment approach where we want to get everyone involved so that they can see the various organisations, what they are doing and also learning from the different and doing it in a creative way where we have fun with it and messages, short [00:53:30] messages going out, their pamphlets, signboards, people dressing up to express themselves so various creative ways, which is really good. I'm Lin Payne. Uh, I work for New Zealand police. Uh, we are here today representing police as part of the Diversity Liaison Network that we have. What does it mean to to be in a in a parade or feel like this? Uh, from a personal perspective, It's bloody awesome. Um, I love the culture, [00:54:00] the atmosphere, the diversity, everything. I mean, people are out there doing what they want doing, acting, how they want, being what they want and nobody cares. It's great. There's there's no no antagonism or anything. Um, from a police perspective, it's also bloody awesome. Um, because we're out there in the community showing the community or the the wider GL BT I communities that we are accepting. We we, uh, look after all of New Zealand, regardless of their [00:54:30] background, their culture, their beliefs, anything. So, yeah, it's cool. A couple of weeks ago in, uh, Auckland, there was the pride parade where a number of protesters came onto the street. Um, and then there was some, um, media coverage around how they were dealt with. How did that make you feel personally, in terms of, um, I mean, people were quite down on police and corrections. How? How? How How did you feel about that? Um, I didn't actually have too much involvement with it myself. Um, [00:55:00] so I can't really comment on it. Unfortunately, uh, the the fact that there's there's a little bit of antagonism out there for police is. It's It's one of those things that we have to get over. Um, we're trying to break down the barriers and get rid of, um, the antagonism and that and the the perceived hatred towards police. Uh, we're trying to make it get rid of it completely. Basically. So, yeah, it was a bit of a downer, but it's one of those things that we just have to put up with. Unfortunately, until [00:55:30] there's more trust and confidence out there And how do you How do you kind of gain that more trust and confidence by being here today Basically, um, and just involving ourselves and and being more diverse, um, being more empathetic, being more accepting of everybody? I mean, we are the police as an organisation, is there to serve the community. And what better way to serve the community than getting out there and being involved with the communities? So have you ever experienced any kind of homophobia [00:56:00] within the police itself? For yourself? Uh, personally, No. None? No. Um, there's the police itself. Is is very old school. Um, we do have a have a core of, uh, say middle class white male Butch homophobe. That's that's the understanding of how it is. That's how it how it always has been and how it always will be. We're trying to break that. Um, it's I've certainly not had that experience [00:56:30] in my 10 years with the police, so yeah. Yeah. And just personally, in terms of, um, being in, uh, places like this, like in the stores and, uh, in the parade. I mean, what does it mean to you personally? Uh, personally, I find it great. I mean, I love I mean, being gay myself. I love being out with with everybody in the community, seeing what everybody else has to offer not only themselves, but the groups, all the little stalls. It's just great [00:57:00] seeing everybody here enjoying themselves. And that's the main part of today. I think just getting out there and enjoying yourself doing what you like. Hey, Cool. Hi. I'm Emma Anderson, and I'm from the electoral Commission. I'm also from Wellington, and I'm just here enrolling people to vote, making sure people's details are up to date and really happy to be out here march in the Pride parade. That was super fun. And yeah, just here to here to show my support. So is that the first pride parade you've marched in? It is [00:57:30] Yes, it's great. And how was it? It was fantastic. Yeah. What kind of feeling? What's what vibe? Um joyful. Happy? Um, yeah. Joy, joyful and happy and just proud to be happy to be out there. And why is it important? Do you think for things like pride parades or or the fear? Uh, I think it's important. So we can show, uh, So, like, we can show that we're an inclusive, tolerant society. Um, where diversity is welcomed. [00:58:00] And, uh yeah, and this is the sort of thing that, um, we we support as a society, which is a great, by the way. So you'll be marching next year. Of course. Of course. Naturally. Hi. My name is Ron Irvine, And, uh, I'm from body positive, and we have a selection of, uh, information on HIV. Uh, but also, we're actually selling some rainbow coloured, um [00:58:30] goods just as a fundraiser for body positive. Why important to be at something like this? I think it's very important to to be at something like this because it's part of the rainbow community. we, uh We, uh, support the rainbow community. Of course. Um, a lot of our members, uh uh, together with, um uh, to do with HIV, uh, come from the rainbow community. And, uh, I think we we need to be out there and be proud of being gay by lesbian, transsexual [00:59:00] and intersex. Yeah, I think I was talking to one of your colleagues before and they were talking about I said, Well, you know, one of the biggest things in New Zealand at the moment, um, around HIV aids. And it was about, um, self stigma. Would would you agree with it? Absolutely. Uh, self stigma is one of the, uh, uh, bad things within our community. Um and, uh, yeah, I. I certainly found that when I came to Wellington by, um when I, uh when we first had our centre, uh, opened and I [00:59:30] decided that I would forget about, uh, all the all this, uh um being secret and, you know, keeping in the closet regarding HIV. So I put a huge, uh, sign a illuminated sign across, uh, Courtney place, and, uh, several of our members said, Oh, we can't do that. We can't do that. And I said, Well, times are changing, And, uh, I think it's very important that, uh, we do, uh, stand up and be proud of who we are. Uh, and, uh, so, you know, within three months, they were back in the centre, and, uh, you know, I talked [01:00:00] to them, and I said, You know, that is all self stigma, and we need to change that, and we're here to help you change that. And, um, yeah, within two or three months, they were back in the centre and over it. Um, and, uh, yeah, I think it's very important. Yeah, we do. A range of we have a range of services at body positive from, um you know, when someone's recently diagnosed, we support them. Uh, we, uh, very important to have people that are HIV positive talking to newly diagnosed people. Uh, that peer [01:00:30] support is crucial. Uh, and certainly, you know, coming from Auckland, where we've been there 20 years and, uh, you know, coming. We've been here now in Wellington for 2. 5 years. It's, uh it's great to have a centre for positive people and their friends and supporters to come in, Have a coffee. Have a chat, uh, newly diagnose people to come in and get that support, Uh, and, uh, to basically move on with life. I think it's very important. Um, in the old days, it was like a death sentence, no longer a death sentence. Nowadays, [01:01:00] uh, it's one pill a day that you take. Eventually, it might take 5 to 7 years before you actually do get onto that pill. But, um, you know, once you if you are IV positive or diagnosed HIV positive. It's no longer that that death sentence and, um, yeah, it's It's great. There's no, certainly no, Um um no. No problems being HIV. The toxicity of the medication nowadays is, um, um is less, uh, and also the side effects are less. Um, eventually, we'll have, uh you know, [01:01:30] I've I've heard that, uh, we'll be having one injection, uh, every six months. Uh, that's on the horizon. So, um, you know, and then, of course, you know, we're waiting for the cure vaccination first and then cure. Uh, I'm little Miss Cinnamon, and we're here today with love your condom. So we're all about promoting safe sex within the the gay men's community, and we're giving away free condoms. And we've got a photo booth here and we're just about celebrating diversity and and safe sex and having a fantastic day here in Wellington. [01:02:00] Can you describe what you're wearing? Um, I'm wearing a lot of sequins and a lot of red and a lot. A lot of makeup. You look amazing. Thank you very much. So is this the first pride event you've been to? Uh, no, I've just come from Christchurch Pride. Um, and we had Auckland Pride as well. Um, so no, I do a lot of pride work around the country. It's all about being proud. Yeah. So can you compare What? What What is the What are the prides like in the various centres? What? How how are they different? Um, I think each community is is very [01:02:30] unique. Um, Wellington is obviously very artistic and very diverse. And, um, very, uh, ground roots. Um, Christchurch is obviously a wee bit more conservative, but we're doing really, really well. Um, venues are a big thing over, uh, a big issue there. And Auckland is just fabulous, as always. Yeah. So talk to me. about LYC. So where does that come from? Um, it's a safe sex campaign, Um, via [01:03:00] the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. So we are all about love, your condom, and we distribute condoms, um, around New Zealand, Um, and just promoting safe sex and testing. Um and well, being within our community for you personally. What? What does it mean to be part of these kind of events? Um, it's about visibility and celebration and awareness as well. So there's a lot of awareness and still needs to be made, especially around [01:03:30] HIV. Um, so, yeah, it's just about being visible and spreading the word and yeah, informing people. Hi, I'm Shane. I'm from Wellington, and I worked for a NZ. Been working for them almost a year now. They're an awesome company to work for. Awesome bank. Yeah, I'm just here in support of, you know, a NZ have been given the the gay sponsor tech for everything so massive achievement and massive, like, quite honoured to be able to represent and, um, represent [01:04:00] and look out for the, you know, the gay community and just let's be there for everyone, you know, backing them. Their dream big save the cricket and everything. So So, Yeah, I'm quite proud to be an a NZ. Employee and customer. Yeah, so? So a NZ has actually supported quite a lot of, um, LGBT events or what other events have they supported? Um, the cricket, the Olympics, the Commonwealth Games? Obviously. Yeah. LGBT the gay ATM S, Um, obviously [01:04:30] out in the park as well. Chinese New Year. So there's so many events we're holding, obviously the netball. And that's so small communities, large communities, New Zealand, national internationally. And it's about everywhere. Always there. Trying to help as much as we can, as I might do, is we live in your world, so we wanna try to be there for you. So why do you think, Um, having these events is so important. This kind of visibility, Um, just to show that we care that we are there for everyone. You know, we're not just a bank. We're out there [01:05:00] trying to get them amongst the community and trying to work with them and help them grow and grow business. And just trying to be there. Yeah. Yeah. Hi. Um, I'm Chris Rogers. Um, and be Yeah, uh, we represent the Wellington Cats Protection League. Um, we have a shelter in Kingston where we look after between 40 50 cats that are needing new homes. Um, which, uh, you know, it takes quite a bit of money. So we like to get out and and fundraise, um, selling stuff that's been [01:05:30] donated to us. Home baking jams, that sort of stuff. Um, that's us. So, uh, describe to me what you've got on your store. Uh, we have a selection of donated sort of brick Brack. Um, we've got books DVD S. We've got some lovely cards featuring some of our cats done by one of our volunteers. Who's an illustrator? Uh, we have jams. We have, uh, pickles, short bread, chocolate chip cookies. Afghans Fudge home baking generally, [01:06:00] And you've got some very cute cats behind us on the on. The on the board. Molly, The third. Molly, The third got adopted yesterday. Yeah, but poor old Diego has been with us for well over a year. Still looking for his special someone. What do you think? Uh, like, days like this for, um out in the car park. Now, why are they important? Um, I think it's a really important way to to, you know, um, get the community out participating, seeing what's out there. I mean, you know, the the queer community in Wellington is incredibly [01:06:30] diverse, and we're very proud to be, um, be a part of that. I'm Alan. Alan representing the Wellington front runners. And I'm Paul Rigby. Also representing Wellington. Front runners. And what are the front runners? Uh, they are a running group. They, um, sort of a gay and lesbian running group. Um, that runs on a Thursday evening and a Sunday morning. How long have you guys been associated with the group? Well, I've been running on and off for the last. [01:07:00] You, um you're obviously from America. And you did a centre of time a few years ago, and then you've come back recently. I first joined nine years ago. We joined a few months back, and it has been a great group. You know, it's a wonderful group of people, you know. You can just socialise while you get fit and healthy and usually go for brunch afterwards. We kind of unofficial slogan is that we run to brunch. My name is Damien Stro, [01:07:30] and I'm the executive director of the fourth Asia Pacific Out Games to taking part in Auckland 13 to 20 of February 2016, only 10 months away. Now it drop me of interest from the community here in Wellington to take part in the culture, the human rights, the sports festival once for a week. There's a lot happening. It's going to be great fun. So coming up to Auckland, I attended the 2011 ones here in Wellington and they just went off. I mean, there was such a buzz around the city, the same sort of sort of thing. I mean, Wellington's now two games ago. We've had the game games in Darwin last year and sort of building on the successes from both [01:08:00] of those events. It's getting its own traction now and the international community is getting used to come to these events. We've got great buy in from Melbourne and Sydney Team Melbourne team Sydney. They'll be sending over a large contingent of people and we've got to go and beat those Aussies. We've got to bring the medals home in New Zealand, so yeah, get training, get out there and come and join in. If you can't join in, come and volunteer or just come and spectate. There's a there's not for everybody. So what kind of sports are going to be in prison? Uh, sports Running from bridge and chest through to the contact sports like touch [01:08:30] rugby. There's hockey, softball, soccer. There's a full swimming competition, ocean swim, track and field events. There's lawn bowls, 10 pin bows. There's 20 odd sports in there, so there's something for everybody again. If you're not a sportsman, come and try out. Come and throw a discus. Come and throw a hammer and try the high jump, the long jump. Everyone can do something, and in terms of the kind of cultural activities around around the, um, the event on the cultural side, we've got a couple of stage shows, which we're running through the week specifically as part of the out games. [01:09:00] Um, there'll be wine tasting tours to waihi. There'll be a Valentine's Evening dinner with the cultural um, show spectacular. It also be trips to the Auckland's volcanoes, come to the geography of Auckland and get some understanding of that. There'll be a whole lot happening. There's too too much to mention right now and in Wellington there was a human rights conference. Is that being repeated in Auckland? It is indeed. But we're kicking off with the youth, which is a get together of the youth of New Zealand, Australia and the Pacific Islands. Um, it's gonna be two or three days [01:09:30] of youth directing themselves as as they want to to perform under, take an event not being directed by so called adults. And the human rights kicks off at the end of that festival and runs for 3, 3. 5 days and be a full human rights festival with obviously speakers with key local speakers and local interest groups. And we're trying to get away from the sort of the classroom festival going to sort of more, um, groups, discussion groups, focus groups of breakout groups of people facilitated [01:10:00] just throwing ideas around and getting some really active discussions and generating some projects and legacy projects to run after the Games. And so have you been competing in previous games like I've been in Wellington, um, the Darwin Out games also the Antwerp World Out games and the Gay Games in Cologne. So that's four events over the last five years, and I have medals, so if I can do it, anyone can do it. My name is Angela Wells. I'm a local face painter, body artist. And I'm just here [01:10:30] because I've done out in the out in the square and then out in the park for the last three years. So yeah, we were rained out at first, and that was a bit of a bummer. Hey, now we're out, and the the weather is nice for now, so that's great. So just still looking forward to just painting and glittering people you can't tell on audio, But I'm currently covering my non dominant arm with rainbows and stars, you know, just for fun and for advertising. So this is a face and body, [01:11:00] kind of, uh, what is the most extreme thing that you've done? What extreme thing I've done. Well, I haven't had much business yet today because we're only just starting out. Um, although I did give someone a rainbow mohawk, he had he had a nice, like, bald head, and we were just like, uh like, what should we do? You need more rainbows. Having like a rainbow Mohawk with like a heart in the front. He looks like a superhero. It's pretty awesome. Why do you think these events are so important? Oh God, it's just like because things are they are getting better. But like incrementally, slowly. And [01:11:30] it's important, since the inception of Pride marches, that there is visibility because there is so much suppression in the modern era, well, contemporary era like societies across the world have had various levels of acceptance of queer trans gender, generally non conform people. And there was just a wave of, you know, conservativism and imperialism over the past couple of centuries. But what it was doing was it was suppressing not only a lot of traditional cultures, but it was also suppressing just [01:12:00] human nature. Some people just you know, some people are queer. Some people are trans get over it, you know, so and it really should be no big deal. But I think until we get to a point where you know people who are, you know, queer friends, you know, different whatever are just seen as just just, you know, whatever. Some people are different once it's no longer a big deal. Maybe we won't need Faires like this. It will just be sort of just a thing of the past. You know, I look forward to a future where it's just sort of everyone's allowed to just do their own thing. I'm Ellen and [01:12:30] I'm on the Lila store Lius Wellington's Lesbian Library, and each year we sell books. We sell them for $2 each, and then some of them get donated back to normal. We sell them the next year we've been. We've been doing this at the Queer Fair in Wellington since 1994. We also sell White Elephant, and it's wonderful selling lots of stuff to straight people who can buy stuff and give us money. We love it. Can you give me an example of some of the books that you've got? [01:13:00] Well, all of the sort of hot, lesbian, erotic short story books gone already. Um, they come in early for that. The young women and grab them. Uh, we've got classics. We go back to just about the start of last century classics and lots of modern stuff as well, lots of plenty from the seventies eighties nineties classics and some of the not so hot ones. But that's all right? They worked at, but they tried. They wrote books and and you [01:13:30] say This is Lina and what is Lila is Wellington's lesbian library. You can find out about us at dot lesbian dot net dot nz. We've been operating since 1994 in Wellington, so that's over 20 years as a lending library books DVD S Once we had videos, magazines. It's an organisation that members can join up, pay an annual subscription on a sliding scale, and then all borrowing is free. [01:14:00] Nowadays, we also do events in our wonderful current room, such as speed dating, talks by interesting people like women and including trans women from the military, police, women, all sorts of interesting people. So why did it? Why was it established in 1994? Was there any particular reason? The impetus to start from the first agonising meetings were held in 93 which was women's suffrage, and lots of women [01:14:30] were coming out like myself, and it was a year when things were getting moving. So two lesbians who worked in the National Library, Linda Evans and Glenda Gale, called a meeting at the YWC A and interested women, including all the lesbian library areas in town turned up, and we spent months plotting and planning a library. It's a great asset. Yeah. So my name is Elizabeth Marshall, and I run Rainbow Rider. And also colour me kitchen Rainbow [01:15:00] is all about everything coloured so anything and everything rainbow that you can think of for your house, your pet yourself, A little bit of pride and flair and colour in my kitchen is my culinary venture doing cooking parties and classes and also specialty cakes and catering Take me through some of the things that you've got on display. Uh, so I've got quite a wide range, uh, some of the stuff I make myself. So I've got wooden letters, um, that have [01:15:30] rainbow buttons and sock monkey kits and sock monkeys. Pet bowls that are hand painted with paw prints, rainbow paw prints and boxes, rainbow pet collars, pride bumper stickers, uh, mugs, rainbow mugs that I've hand painted and platters I've hand painted, uh, jewellery, lots of pride, jewellery, lanyards, flags. Yeah, there's a lot here, actually balls for the kids or for your dogs, [01:16:00] but yeah, pet friendly, kid friendly, family friendly. So are you touring around the country with us at various prides. Um, no, I haven't been. I would love to right now. For me, it's a little bit more of a hobby. Um, my stuff is kind of taking over and taking a bit more of my time because I'm doing a lot of private classes and cooking classes and stuff and cakes. Lots of I did a vegan wedding cake over this weekend, which was massive. So, um, but I would love to I. [01:16:30] I don't think there's enough pride stores in New Zealand. They're all based offshore so, and it's always great to get people involved that are local, like we're Wellington and our the woman who makes our dog colours. She's Wellington based. The sock monkey maker is Wellington based. So if there are artists or people out there who are doing rainbow things or making rainbow things that I can sell on their behalf, you know it's nice to have a little community feel to it. So my name is Neil Ballentine, and I'm with the group, [01:17:00] which we're currently calling ourselves Faith communities united in love. And so we're a bunch of essentially different faith groups. Um, but and also different Christian churches coming together. Um, particularly in response to the guy, the Baptist gentleman in Auckland who was talking about killing the gays. Um, we thought that it was really important to have a group of people of faith coming together to say, Actually, we're much more pro the LGBT community than people think. And so, yeah, we come together, um, [01:17:30] to have a still here and also to deliver a petition asking the government to retrospectively pardon those men who are convicted for homosexual acts before law reform in 86. Um, this is also joining with, um, a British campaign as well that started, Um, especially in response to the movie. I can't remember what it's called the game. Yeah, the imitation game that was talking about Alan Turing. And so around that time, the queen actually pardoned Alan Turing. Um, but no one else. Funnily [01:18:00] enough, um, and so there's a British campaign that, um, Benedict Cumberbatch actually started as Alan Turing in the movie is also pushing in in Britain to to get all the others um pardoned as well. So So we're sort of joining with that, um but we think as faith communities. It's especially important for us to be, um, giving this petition to the public because we recognise that religion would have had a significant part to play in those sodomy laws in the first place. So, yeah. So how far down the track are you with the petition? Um, so a gentleman called was [01:18:30] the guy who put it together, and he started at, um, late last year and sort of, um I think it was September, October last year, and so we don't really have an actual goal in mind of how many signatures, but we're probably going to deliver it to parliament within the next couple of months, so we're just sort of collecting the final. Now, there is, uh, an online petition as well, so people can jump on board and and check that out. And so what will that mean for people with convictions? Um, I'm not sure The exact legal process. What's going to happen? Um, I think the exact wording [01:19:00] of the legislation that would need to be passed in order to have it happen is still to be worked out. Um, but essentially, I was asking the government to look at it and then to figure out the process. From there, they have the legal expertise to figure out exactly what the process would be. We don't. And so would a pardon be, uh, something like it would be removed from their record. And yes, uh, that will be the case, but again, it's It's probably less about the actual practicalities of it and more about the idea of it, because it's it's about the government officially saying, Actually, this legislation was wrong. It should never have happened. And we're sorry that we put you guys through this. That's the main [01:19:30] reason. Do you have any idea about how many people this will affect? No. Sorry. I don't know the numbers. We again we need the government to actually look through that and look it up, um, and work through that. And if you had people that have been convicted that are, um, kind of now putting themselves forward in the public as to get their conviction squashed, Um, no, but we'd love that to happen. You know, we'd love to have some role models to be able to sort of show the the face behind. What? What This is about Yeah, that'd be awesome. Why do you think? Uh, something like, uh, this [01:20:00] pride parade and also the kind of out in the car park is important. Um, I think it's incredibly important to have pride events to keep it on the public's radar, that a R communities are out there and B that we actually have a lot of, um, stuff that we still need to be working for. There's there's still, um, injustice, um, out there and there's still, um I think a lot of how the public conceives the queer community still needs to upgrade [01:20:30] itself, if you know what I mean. Um, so yeah, so we've got marriage equality, and that's really awesome. But there's there's a risk that with marriage equality, people go Oh, OK, that's all the rights you need. It's done kind of thing. And so events like this show that we're still actually a marginalised group and actually, as a marginalised group, we can come together and celebrate our differences, but also, um, act politically for further change in the future and to, um, really still integrate ourselves as as as a key part of wider society and and people appreciate and affirm that we are part [01:21:00] of a wider society. And so it's kind of nice having it part of Cuba as well that it's not an isolated event on its own, that it is actually part of a wider thing. So what do you think the biggest challenges are for kind of rainbow communities in New Zealand in 2015? Great question. Um, I'd say there's probably two main areas which I would like to see further work done on. Um, one would be, uh, adoption law reform. Um, and that is happening, but at a really slow rate. Um, so I think that needs a real sort of kick in the pants in regards to a campaign around that. And secondly, [01:21:30] uh, trans issues are still huge. Um, gender diversity is still not very well recognised in New Zealand, um, and, uh, support financially for transition surgeries. And that kind of thing is chronically underfunded. Um, and even schools can be incredibly impressive places in regards to how gender is represented and that kind of thing. Still very, um, binary ideas, gender representation that come through. So so as a society, we need to get a head around gender diversity way more.

IRN: 859
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ATL REF: OHDL-004349
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089643
TITLE: Alex - Beyond Rainbows
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Ara Taiohi; Beyond Rainbows (series); Day of Silence; FtM; Laverne Cox; School's Out (Wellington); Tabby Besley; Wellington; advice; alienation; arts; asexual; attraction; barriers; change; cis; clothing; community; disown; education; family; film; fluidity; freedom; friends; gay liberation movement; gender; gender binary; gender dysphoria; gender expression; gender visibility; grandparents; hand movements; health; health system; homelessness; homophobia; hormone blockers; hormone replacement therapy (HRT); identity; jewellery; labels; liberation; marriage equality; media; mental health; minority; naming; parents; pronouns; queer straight alliance (QSA); representation; school; sexualisation; shame; storytelling; support; television; theatre; trans; transgender; transmasculine; transphobia; youth
DATE: 6 March 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alex talks about identifying as asexual female-to-male trans* guy.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'd say that I identify as a female to male trans guy, not necessarily a transgender male or trans man, but just somewhere near towards the male side of the spectrum of gender. Um, and I'm also I'm attracted to guys, but I'm pretty asexuals so in terms of gender and sexuality, that's how. Yeah, that's how I identify. [00:00:30] Um, do you want to elaborate a bit more on how you identify as a trans guy, but not necessarily like a trans man or a trans man? Yeah, well, I think towards the start of my transition as I was figuring out my gender identity, it was I was quite binary in the way I looked at things. As you know, society sort of is, um and so I had this image. I wanted to conform to the male side of things because I was definitely not female, and I didn't really realise there was a great area that you could be in. And [00:01:00] so I guess I sort of went quite extreme, and I went super masculine and tried that out. And just in terms of gender expression and also the feeling that I have my internal sense of gender. It just was not. It was not 100% male. And so now I'm figuring out that, I mean, for the purpose of, like, people's understanding, I just say I'm male because yeah, um, but I'd say maybe 97% [00:01:30] between 90 98%. Um, male. So you prefer kind of identity as a trans guy rather than, um, I guess maybe some people would use words like kind of gender, queer or fluid or things like that. You feel more trans masculine, I guess. Yeah. I wouldn't say that, I. I wouldn't call myself non-binary. Um because I think there is a sense of I want to be perceived as as a male, I guess. Um, [00:02:00] but in terms of gender expression, I'm now figuring out, you know, that I can, because I'm I'm pretty feminine. I think I feel quite feminine in my gender expression. So yeah, it's it's interesting now that I'm more solid in my identity, how I can start to play with my expression. Yeah. Um how do you express that? Well, I guess I just I I wear whatever I want. I, um I sometimes feel like [00:02:30] especially when I'm around a lot of, um cisgender guys and even girls as well. That sort of binary setting, where transgender is sort of an invisible concept. I feel like I have to, um, you know, dress more manly or wear boring, dull clothes, but then it's sort of like a cycle. Then I realise, hang on, this is not me. I want to wear whatever I want to wear. And so I I wear more. It's [00:03:00] it's stupid that we have to think of it as gendered, but, like, you know, jewellery and and things that might be considered more feminine in our society. Um, in terms of So that's just in terms of my clothes, I guess. In terms of my mannerisms, Um, I speak off my hands. I don't know just things that people to me, it's gone. It's not really gendered, um, but to other people it is. And so I guess it's a matter of finding the balance between how I want [00:03:30] to be perceived and and how I feel inside. Yeah. So when did you first start? Um, figuring out your tinder, uh, would have been a couple of years ago. So in 2000 and 12, I think about in the middle of the year. I just had this. I remember writing. I was overseas, and I was sort of feeling a bit alone because I couldn't really talk to anyone about it. So I wrote down like, I hate [00:04:00] being a girl. Um, the the the This is stupid. And I just remember feeling looking in the mirror and feeling so ashamed of myself for feeling that way. So I suppressed that for a little bit for maybe six months or so. And then one day I just came out to a teacher and went uphill from there. Um, I found lots of resources and, like he he helped me. [00:04:30] Um, you know, get connected with people, which was great. And so from then on, I just started figuring out that I was transgender and and that this was a thing that I could do. And there were so many options out there, and I could be who I wanted to be, so that was cool. Cool. How did you know that it was ok to come out to that teacher? Or maybe you didn't. Uh well, he is part of the LGBT community himself and outwardly expresses that. [00:05:00] And I guess I just he was someone I could trust. And, um, at the time, it was sort of a spur of the moment thing. It was absolutely nothing planned. I was just It was almost like I. I remember I sat down and I was like, You know, I hate being a girl, and he's like, That's really interesting. I sort of, um because he had just written an article the day before or something about, um, someone in my position from a parents' perspective. Um, so he gave me the article, and that was really interesting. And that also helped [00:05:30] me coming out to my parents later on. So yeah, and it was great to have someone in my school, um, that I could talk to. And if things were difficult with, say, people not respecting my pronouns and report writing and stuff like that, he sort of had my back and and that was really, really important to have cool. And how did your parents and family take it overall? Like, totally, positively, Which is I'm so lucky [00:06:00] because I hear so many stories about disown and homelessness within the trans community that I'm really. I guess I'm just totally grateful that my sisters and my parents and my wider family and my grandma, which is amazing because usually the older generation have a hard time, but she embraces it. Um, I think I can't say that it was like, if, you know, I didn't tell them I'm transgender, and they're like, OK, great. You [00:06:30] know, it's a total learning process for everyone, and it's a transition for everyone. And so, you know, we worked through it and I educated helped them, you know, figure out what their role and and my transition was. And but yeah, it took time. It does. It does take time. Um, which is something I've learned to deal with along the way, but yeah, yeah, it's good. Um, And how about your peers in the school? Aside [00:07:00] from that teacher, my friends? Yeah. Awesome. They're a couple. I have to say that I sort of I don't want to say avoided, but we weren't They weren't my close friends. It's just people that I knew who Maybe I didn't. I was just a bit passive and didn't even bother explaining my situation. So I just didn't keep connecting with them. Um, but no one's really reacted too negatively. [00:07:30] Um, pronouns obviously take, you know, name take a while to adjust. Um, I do sometimes bump into people who I used to hang out with, and they don't know what's going on. So that's there are awkward moments in that, definitely. But my closest friends are amazing, bigger supporters. Um, and were you the kind of only, um, trans person you knew at your school or, um, there was from what I know, there was me and, [00:08:00] uh, another FTM Trans guy who was a year below me. Um, so we sort of went we It was good to have someone else to sort of battle the school's, um, system with, which was I mean, we had very different perspectives on the way that our school was, um, treating us, I guess, Or like going about, you know, changing things. Um, I guess he was more, um I don't know. He was more. [00:08:30] He was more assertive and got things done. And I was a bit more like taking a step back and being like, OK, you know, you do. You do whatever you can in your power, but yeah, he was like, No, we need to get things changed. I wish I can be more like that. I wish I could be more sort of powerful, but it's not really in my nature to do that. Um, but yeah, the school was took its time, Um, and it's still taking its time. But to be honest, relatively speaking, [00:09:00] in the Wellington region, Yeah, like, super. They were willing to make the changes, even if it did take a bit of time, which I think and they were willing to learn, even if you know, the principal didn't get it quite right all the time. Or that, you know, these these were new concepts to them. And but we, um, through our QS a, we were allowed our straight alliance. Uh, we were allowed to speak to the staff about what we wanted to see change at our school, and [00:09:30] that was a great opportunity, um, to educate people. So what were some of the changes that you were kind of asking the school to make? Uh, the big one was, um, how our genders and pronouns were recorded within the school system. So on our official records and also reports, I guess, um, we also introduced a trans policy, which I guess was just making It was just [00:10:00] to have an official document to to look back on and say This is how this is how these people should be treated. And, um, if there were any, you know, there was any confusion for for future, um, students that they had something to look on. Uh, we we just wanted to create an awareness as well, and more than just an acceptance. Just, um But we we weren't saying this is [00:10:30] we We just wanted to be we We wanted to eradicate casual homophobia and transphobia that sort of thing just within, just getting other students and teachers aware about how what they were saying. Because if they're not part of the community that, you know, they don't know that using the word gay is an insult as an example, um is is harmful. And it's harmful in other ways. Then, Yeah, that that they may think [00:11:00] so. Just stuff like that. Yeah, I think that's about it. We had a day for the day of silence. Um, when I think that was probably our biggest achievement with the with the wall. We had a wall and we got everyone to write up things. And I think people we we wrote read messages on there that I don't think people would have had the courage to maybe otherwise write. So that was really that was quite powerful. I think that had an effect on our school. Do [00:11:30] you want to tell me a little bit more about what the day of silence is? Yeah, well, the day of silence is now. It's an internationally recognised day, but in New Zealand, it's It's a day where well, everywhere it's a day where people go silent so they don't speak or how whatever way they want to show their silence to, I guess being in solidarity with people in the LGBT Q community that, uh, feel voiceless and [00:12:00] don't have access to to be able to be themselves, express themselves or say what they want. Um, and so, yeah, stay where we show it physically by taping our mouths shut, um, to show the silence to represent the silence that people face in that community. And I guess by doing that, raising awareness of the struggles that people, the minorities in the LGBT community. Well, everyone in that [00:12:30] community face. Yeah. And can you remember some of those messages that people wrote on the wall? Yeah, there were. There were a range. Really? There were quite a few of, you know, um, male female boxers. And why must I take one? Um, there were more humorous ones. There were ones just about loving yourself, no matter what. You know, just more, general, I guess statements that apply to everyone, but that's cool. Um, someone [00:13:00] wrote a really moving story about their grandfather. I think it was their grandfather and and his bit of his story about how as a gay man, I guess, Um what was the impact? Do you think of that day in your school as well as creating a sort of awareness like, Oh, these people exist? Um, we we there was sort of a unity in our school that I think they hadn't really [00:13:30] been displayed before in that way, because, I mean, you can show school spirit in other ways, but there was some sort of it. Just it was a day where at least for one day, you could feel like, you know, you could walk around and just be for once, and it would be amazing if that can, that can continue. Um, and that can just become a normal thing. But I hope that people took away from it that [00:14:00] now they know about this about this the LGBT Q community a little bit more at least. And that we're just humans. Yeah, because there is so much alienation and other going on with that that we're not normal. And but we are OK, what is normal? Um, yeah, I don't know. And Alex got to be [00:14:30] on breakfast TV talking about it with me. How was it? That was a highlight. That was Every time I go past the street, I look up and that's That's where we, um, got interviewed. Yeah, that was also a great experience. And just seeing people sharing that and being like, Look, you're on TV. It's fun to remember that out of the archives. Um, so you also don't identify as asexuals? [00:15:00] Yeah. I mean, I don't I've never really like putting a label on my sexuality, partly because I'm still figuring it all out. Um, but I would say that I'm, I've sort of putting the feelings together from the last few years. It sort of matches up to how I feel. Being as sexual would be, um, just not having any desire, apart from just more romantic [00:15:30] attraction, not having any inclination. You know, nothing. Nothing more than just being attracted to a person. But I It's interesting because people make, you know, living in a world where almost everything is so sexualized, especially in the media. Yeah, it's it's interesting, sort of feeling. It sort of makes you feel like a bit of an outsider, because you're not really you don't get what people are talking about I. I personally [00:16:00] don't get what people are talking about when they and they talk about this, you know, sex like But in saying that, it's also a little bit. It's more. It's a bit liberating because it's like it's not a big deal to me, and it's It's really interesting that people make such a fuss on especially, you know, all these other issues you know surrounding, you know, marriage, equality, [00:16:30] and that's just the tip of the iceberg. But it's interesting from an asexuals perspective because it's like, yeah, I. I don't I don't see what the big fuss is. Really? Um, but I think a struggle coming with with being asexuals the fact that in a society where people like to put labels on you, I find it really hard to say, explain my situation that I'm attracted to people [00:17:00] in this way. But I don't have any other way of being attracted. And I'm sure I'm I'm young, and I'm sure that I will sort that out. You know, it will. It will come when it comes. Um, but right now it's Yeah, whatever. I don't I don't think about it much as well. Yeah, I guess my gender exploration has taken up such a massive part of my life that yeah, sexuality can be something that's so fluid as well, do you think? Yeah, definitely. [00:17:30] And I think that is such an important point to get across to everyone because people think in such binary terms and gay and straight lesbian. But it is so fluid. And I think even if you identify as completely heterosexual, there are those moments where you you know, you hear someone talking and you're like about having, you know, a bromance or just like these things [00:18:00] that suggest, you know, that everyone is. I think everyone's a little bit every you know and no, I don't think anyone is completely. I mean, of course you can, like, the people are, however they identify, and that is absolutely cool. But it's just my belief that I think there's a bit of fluidity in everyone, no matter how they identify. And yeah, that because of that, that makes it not [00:18:30] not much of a deal. Do you feel like people who are asexuals are a minority within the, um, Rainbow Community? Yes, I would say that because I don't really know anything about asexuality. And the fact that I don't know much about it, despite trying to look for resources and people to talk to, is is saying something in itself. Um, yeah, [00:19:00] I think we asexuality is pretty invisible at the moment, and I'm not sure, um, it might be something that this is just from my perspective, it might be something that does get more coverage. It's It's almost like we've moved from, I guess the whole you know, gay liberation. And that movement is now gender visibility is more coming into the media and the mainstream media. And I wonder if next will be all the other labels? I don't [00:19:30] know. I don't know. But yeah, it would. It would be nice to see more, um, visibility, especially in the media I think of as people. And have you managed to find any friends who kind of identify the same way or like an online community? Or how have you? How have you kind of learned about it? Um, it sounds like it's been quite limited. Yeah, I I've read a couple of articles. I read an article on the Guardian a while back. I was like, That's cool. Um, [00:20:00] I guess I don't go around telling people I'm sexual. It's not something that I really speak about. Um, but I know that a few of my friends, they don't think it's a big deal at all, Really. Um, I just think that especially some of my friends don't care. They're all a bit fluid anyway, [00:20:30] so that doesn't matter to them at all. Yeah, I do sometimes wonder in the future how it will affect my life and my relationships, but that's that's an obstacle that I can get over when I come to it. Yeah. So, um, you said you'd like to see kind of sexuality. Kind of represented more in the media. Um, do you see any kind of parts of your identity reflected in kind of any kinds of media? [00:21:00] No. Uh, the way that I identify personally. No. I mean, there are I sometimes see reflections in, say, transgender characters, but not just aspects of them. Like no one who I can look up to and say, Oh, wow, [00:21:30] that's like, for example, Taylor Vern Cox. Um, she, you know, she's transgender. She's obviously male to female. So there's that difference. But within that the fact that a transgender person is speaking out as being an advocate within, I guess mainstream media Um, that's I. I identify with that. But in terms of how I as an asexuals [00:22:00] guy, identify? Not really. Um, yeah, it's something. I'm intrigued by the whole representation of gender and sexuality in the media, but and are you studying next trimester at university? Um, I'm doing film and English and philosophy this trimester, and then film, philosophy and theatre and the next trimester. [00:22:30] Um, so it's telling these kind of stories and getting that representation out there is something you're interested in doing with that kind of film. Yeah, definitely. I think I'm quite I. I believe that telling stories and especially telling your own stories, um is a pretty powerful medium, I guess. Um, a channel through which other people can connect to other people can learn about new new things, Um, new concepts and new perspectives on life. So [00:23:00] through I would really like to make in the future. I'd really like to make documentaries of or just films of of gender diversity and and different sexual orientations within different societies in the world. Even branching out a little bit. Um, I think, yeah, that's something that I'd really like to get tell other people's stories and yeah, and tell my own as well. Is it important to [00:23:30] you to have a kind of sense of, um, community and belonging within your different identities? Yeah, I think, even though I I don't necessarily feel alone or anything like that. But it's the feeling of being with the community and working together to fight for something or to make change happen is so powerful. And I think it's really [00:24:00] it it makes At least it makes me feel like I have a purpose, um, within the world, because I think it's really easy to feel like you're a tiny You're a tiny atom in this massive this universe that doesn't really get you. So when you're with the community, a community that that understands your perspective and you can feel just you can just feel comfortable being that's I think that's so important to have, [00:24:30] especially even if you're not, you know, with immersed in that community every day. At least you have that support to fall back on. Yeah. How have you found that that community so far? Yeah, I mean, so, like, I went to schools out a couple of years ago, So I going to schools out, which is a group for mainly different sexualities. But, you know, the the whole the rainbow [00:25:00] community, um, for teenagers and met really cool people through that and just from there, being more aware of and Wellington being more aware of, um, of people like me and hearing other stories and helping younger people as well find find their place, something I'm looking forward to doing more. Yeah, There's just a sense of [00:25:30] equal, not equal, like Equalness, I guess within when you're in that community and that's really cool. What do you think are some of the most important issues still facing our community? Quite a few. Um, I think that the treatment of transgender people within the health care system [00:26:00] is a massive one. especially with funding and just the way that information is it was given to us. Um, it's not really readily available out there. And I think that that really needs to be worked on, um, understanding that physically and mental health is just as important as physical health within, obviously for everyone, but also [00:26:30] within the trans community. I think, um, gender dysphoria is something that most people don't understand. And it would be really great to see more doctors be educated on what they at least you know, so they can have a bit of empathy towards transgender patients. Um, I just want to see the, you know, race and class and ethnicity. I just don't want to see them being barriers at all within [00:27:00] the community, within anyone you know, especially it's hard enough being in a minority and then when you're a minor, a minority within a minority, it's so easy to feel, Um, well, it's easy to be discriminated against and stuff like that. So I think the biggest thing that with our society can do is we can just keep educating people. I think most of it comes from ignorance and people not knowing that this is just who we are. And this is [00:27:30] this is just how it is and people need to start accepting it. They just need to start living with it, dealing with it. It's Yeah, I. I can't really think of any specific issues. I just want to see everything. Just people staying more, being more educated on on the smaller, the T and LGBT and asexuality and all those [00:28:00] things and what they mean. Um, if you could give some advice to someone younger who's maybe go through the same kind of things that you've been through around your gender and sexuality, what would what would your advice be? I'd say Keep at it because there are times where it feels like you're going backwards or you're not moving in your journey in your if you're working towards something in particular. Um, for [00:28:30] example, if you wanted to get on hormones, I'd say You keep at it. You just be persistent. It takes time. There are going to be challenges because people, some people aren't going to get it and aren't going to accept it. But it is so rewarding. You know, every day it sometimes feels like nothing's happening. But then you suddenly look back and you see how far you've come. And it's incredible, and that's just going to keep happening throughout your whole life. So I just say, Stick [00:29:00] in there. Whatever situation you're in, there's always gonna be someone there's, there's going to be someone who's gonna listen or who's going to help you find resources that you need, even if it isn't in the realm of who's typically there to support you like family and friends. There's going to be someone, you're gonna find them, and you're just gonna keep going. Yeah, that's what I'd say. Great advice, Um, And just to finish up, what's your favourite thing [00:29:30] about, um guess being a a young, um, trans guy asexuals person? Um, in New Zealand, I would say the there is a sense of liberation and freedom because I think some PE people, young people, feel like maybe they have rules to stick by or they have [00:30:00] to be a certain way. When you let go of those things and you just say I am what I am, it's it's great, It's really freeing and the fact that I can share my story quite openly within the situation I am living in New Zealand is I hope that it can help people and I would really like it. I'd really love to have an impact, [00:30:30] Um, by sharing my story and and changing others lives. So that's what I'm most excited about. And I think that's that's the best thing that the situation I'm in. The positive experiences I've had can help people and they can. It can. I can tell people that that there's not only one sad trans narrative that ins in some bad place. You know, there's you can. [00:31:00] There is positive within the challenges that we face as a minority.

IRN: 858
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_rainbows_faye.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004348
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089642
TITLE: Faye - Beyond Rainbows
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Ara Taiohi; Beyond Rainbows (series); Catholic school; Christianity; Māori; Tabby Besley; UniQ Victoria (Wellington); Wellington; acceptance; advice; attraction; binding; bisexual; children; clothing; coming out; community; confidence; demisexual; dolls; family; farm; femininity; fetishism; friends; gender; gender binary; gender identity; genderqueer; health education; internet; invisibility; isolation; kink; language; monosexual; pansexual; parents; pregnancy; pronouns; religion; role model; rural; school; school uniform; sex; sexuality; stereotypes; surgery; tomboy; university; whānau; youth
DATE: 13 March 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Faye talks about identifying as genderqueer demisexual pansexual.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm a gender queer. Pansexual demisexual. Do you want to elaborate a little bit about what those words mean for you? Um, I kind of describe my gender as during the day, or when I wake up, I will either feel more male or more female. Some days there are boob, uh, boobs days. Some days I do not have boobs. Some days I have boobs and a Penis. Or sometimes I have nothing at all. [00:00:30] Um, with my pansexual demisexuality I stuff, it's I don't really feel that much sexual attraction until I've become friends with someone. Most of the time, I have to have known someone for at least a few months before I actually open up like that. And although I'm not sexually attracted to every person I meet, I can look at them and go. I understand why people find you attractive as soon as they meet you. [00:01:00] Um, are there any other important parts of your identity or words that you would use to describe? I'm Maori. I'm a mum. I'm kink friendly. So how did you first start to figure out your I guess, sexuality and gender. Um, I think my sexuality stuff came up really early. I One of my earliest memories is playing with Barbie dolls and knowing that [00:01:30] sometimes Barbie wanted to marry Ken and sometimes Barbie wanted to marry another Barbie. And that was perfectly OK. My gender identity came in about high school when one of my very gay male friends would shout out Yeah, for the boys when I got up to speak in French and my brain went actually today, yes, it was surprising [00:02:00] and not so surprising for me. It had always been kind of the not tomboyish because I'm not so much of an outside person, but man spread not making much of an effort. It takes me five minutes to get dressed in the morning. Mhm. In fact, it takes more time for me to get dressed in the morning if I'm having a guy day than it does if I'm not. And so did you have a coming out process? [00:02:30] Um, I came out to a few of my close friends as being bisexual in about year seven because he came out at the same time, and we all just told we told our friends, and then, uh, I wasn't that private about it with my family, but I didn't talk about it because they're extreme [00:03:00] Christians, like extreme Christians. Uh, the rest of my school found out in year 10 when, a few weeks after I had broken up with a guy, I got sick and I wasn't at school. And one of the guys in the class was making a joke about how I was so heartbroken about breaking up with this guy that that was the reason I wasn't at school. And one of my friends turned around and said, Shut up! She has a girlfriend now, and [00:03:30] everything just dropped. It was great. I find it sad that I can only experience this third person because I think I would have liked to have seen the the facial expressions, especially in a Catholic school. So what kind of reactions did you get from your peers? Um, we had the ones who thought I was lying cos they'd only seen me date guys and then the the ones who were perfectly OK with it. And the ones who kind [00:04:00] of, I suppose, fetishized it went. Oh, Felix, Girls. Fay, will you kiss a girl in front of us? No, I do not like people for your amusement. And what was it like, kind of being out in a Catholic school. How was the school? Um, the school didn't really pay attention to the goings on with students. I do remember lots of things telling [00:04:30] us that it was wrong, but most of our teachers had got kind of more accepting the one teacher who it was during our health class. We asked why the Catholic Church thought that homosexuality was wrong and the one thing she said was, It's just the fact that they can't physically reproduce. I'm like, but there are so many people now. What's the point? [00:05:00] Um, so did you feel like there were all these messages Kind of telling you that you were wrong? Did that impact you or did you? Um, it made me want to stay more quiet about it, especially around my family. When I was about 17, my older sister got married and then some things came to light. And just after he went to prison, my auntie turned to me and said, Well, at least she didn't marry a woman [00:05:30] who that those are the times where I kind of go I am perfectly fine with who I am, but I don't feel comfortable with bringing other people like girlfriends and stuff into the situation, because I don't feel like you would be safe for them. Um, so do your family know about your sexuality and gender? Um, most of them do. Half of them refuse to accept [00:06:00] it because they'll always talk about me as though I am a girl. Or as though I'm straight. So when do you think you're going to get a boyfriend? Mhm. I don't know. I might get a boyfriend. I might get a girlfriend. I might get someone who identifies as neither Are there other people in your life who are [00:06:30] kind of accepting and understanding? A lot of my friends are very understanding. And a few of my family members, after hearing me come out like, Well, actually, I am also bisexual, like Good for you. It doesn't bother me that much. Um, do you feel as someone who's kind of like sexual and attracted to people from more than one gender? Or doesn't you know, put people into boxes like that or something? [00:07:00] Um, do you find a kind of different layer of, I guess invisibility and stereotypes and things like that that you probably wouldn't get if you identified as as monos. So it either straight or yes, um, or even I know that people view view bisexuals as being invisible. But some for some people, the fact that there is more than just a gender binary is confusing. So pansexual is completely [00:07:30] over their heads, Um, to people who have been learning about themselves and so have gone through that type of education, even just going as far as identifying mono sexual and bisexuals and then explaining pansexual to them and then going, Oh, yeah, that makes sense and not going. So you do what with pots you do what with cook with [00:08:00] which either leads to a sit down conversation about what I actually, how I actually am attracted to people or, Yeah, honey, you should see me write a walk. Sarcasm gets very useful at it after a full day of explaining my sexuality. And if it's something you have to do a lot, Sometimes [00:08:30] I explain my gender more because more often now, people don't ask about who you're attracted to. That when you have just met people and they go, they take you on the appearance that you've chosen that day. It's Oh, you're a really funny girl. Um, actually, I prefer person, or they then pronounce if you could [00:09:00] her face. She's so She's so great. Um, they they are so great. They thank you. Or the one time I wore an amazing suit like Who's your Asher? He's doing really well today. Well, part of my brain went, Hey, someone noticed that I've bound my chest and I'm looking manly. The other part went, and I'm not. [00:09:30] It's a hard place to sit in between. Yes, it's like feeling happy that they have acknowledged that you are that gender that day. But still knowing that inside you are not exactly that gender. It's like I've had friends ask if because I have a lot of time where I identify either as nothing or slightly male [00:10:00] just because I'm lazy and track pants are comfortable. Um, they will ask if I'm ever thinking of getting surgery or that type of thing. It's like I couldn't go through with the surgery because I will never identify as just that one gender for long enough for me. to feel comfortable in anybody. How did you, um, first become aware [00:10:30] of Kind of, I guess, words and identities like, um, gender fluid and pansexual and demisexual. It was some of it was discomfort within myself, ma, other queer people and trans people that or reading about trans people and going part of that makes sense. But it's not. The word I am looking [00:11:00] for led me to Google. Mhm. It's like, What am I? If sometimes I am the gender I was born with? It was a slow discovery because Google contains lots of things, and not all of them connect. It's like people who feel comfortable with some of the newer pronouns. I haven't found any that connect with me, [00:11:30] but I'm glad that they have. And is being Maori something that has, um, do you think that's been linked in or kind of intercepted with your sexuality and gender at all? Or I think the way I've expressed or connected the connection I have with my family because I am Maori means I talk. I like to talk to them a lot, and part of the whole [00:12:00] connection seems to have been lost When I try to talk about my sexuality or my gender identity, at least on part, at least with part of my family. The overly religious side and I feel like they have such set have had such set gender roles that they don't quite know where to place me [00:12:30] in their lives. Have you had any role models for any parts of your identity? Because I grew up in a small town. Even when I first got my nose pissed, I was looked at funny, bright coloured hair was a completely foreign concept to them and still is because it's either very young people or older couples. I have [00:13:00] recently met a friend who grew up in the same town I did, and while I wasn't aware of it before, they felt uncomfortable coming out as Trans. Now that they live in Wellington, they're more comfortable with themselves. And I think that some of the small town mindset makes you afraid to be yourself. Um, how old were you when you moved to Wellington? I moved to Wellington [00:13:30] when I was 20 to start university, and, um, I grew up on a tiny farm with, like, 20 houses around. So while a lot of my hand me down. My clothes were hand me downs from either my sisters or my aunt and uncle's sons. So dressing comfortably didn't matter until I was in a town where they [00:14:00] would say things like, Oh, she wants to be a boy or, um, being made fun of at primary school for not having Flasher clothes where the quality of the clothes didn't matter to me as long as I felt comfortable in them. And then as I got older, I would be bought more dresses and very girly things. So I felt like that was where I was supposed to put myself. When I got to [00:14:30] a school that had a school uniform, I was slightly more comfortable because there was no picking on for different clothing, but still knowing I wasn't feeling the right wearing the right uniform for what gender I was with the choices I had given, it would have been a lot of the men's shirts and skirts or pants [00:15:00] and the nice blouses, sometimes, because it's never firmly just one gender for me. Most of the time, it's like the few times I've worn a complete suit. I've worn high heels because some sometimes I need to feel feminine or wearing men's shirts with skirts with my with my binder and, um, [00:15:30] just finding a middle ground where I can say this is me in this moment, while it may not be me in a day or a week, it's how I feel now. So clothes is a really important thing with how you express your gender. I feel like clothing is one of the few ways I can express my gender, although there [00:16:00] are times when I look at everything I own and go, this is not good enough for what I feel like right now, like um, or trying to find clothing that doesn't make me fit within any part of a gender binary like there are times when I kind of feel like a Kindle. If it didn't have the abs and the pics [00:16:30] just plain and undefined, Um, and what's it been like moving from a small town to Wellington? Part of it has been overwhelming just because there are so many people. But all of the people I see are so comfortable within themselves, which gives me the confidence to be more of myself and While I do get [00:17:00] issues with my body the way it is I am, it's easier for me to put them to the back of my mind knowing that it's not what people would be focusing on. It's easier to not feel like you're being judged when there are so many people with different lives too busy to notice. I have quite dramatic curves from about the waist down, so [00:17:30] finding men's pants or even binding but still somehow looking slightly feminine can be an issue for me. But it's less of an issue because as long as I don't care, I feel like other people don't care. So much is having a sense of community and belonging something that's important to you. Yes, one of the first things I, one of the first groups I joined when I moved to Wellington, [00:18:00] was uni here. And just talking to other people about how they define themselves can be enlightening with how you define yourself, just whether it's something you identify with or something you can hear and go that is absolutely not me. So I know where I'm fitting. And before you moved to Wellington, did you, um, where you grew up. Was there any sense [00:18:30] of that community Was, um, similar people to you? Or did you find it somewhere else, like the Internet? Or, um, until I moved to Wellington, I was on dial up. So finding community on the Internet was very difficult for me. I had about three close friends at the high school I went to who were either non-binary queer or gay, and [00:19:00] they were kind of my people who, because they also had access to the Internet. They would tell me what they'd found that helped them identify who they were, and I could listen and acknowledge the parts of myself that were the same. Um, I think if I hadn't lived in such a conservative home, I probably would have [00:19:30] travelled down to Wellington more and met more people who are more like myself. So I would have found that sense of community earlier, which would have been better in some ways, but in But what I've found has been very good for me. What was it like? Um, being pregnant and being a, um, a parent as a gender fluid person, I got pregnant my first time having sex, [00:20:00] which was a big deal for me. Um, well, my first time having sex wasn't such a big deal. It was me wanting to find out what the big deal was about. But as I was pregnant, the changes in my body weren't as comfortable because I beforehand I was a be up. So that was fairly easy to hide [00:20:30] behind a tight shirt to B, more comfortable with my male side when I needed to be comfortable. But as my pregnancy went on, my boobs were growing, and looking at that part of myself would make me here feel kind of gross and just knowing that that wasn't what I needed and the fact that they'd just be full and heavy [00:21:00] and there would be no way to hide them because it would hurt to put pressure on them. It was very strange for me, Um, as he's as my son's got older, Um, it's been easier to be the way I feel about how I dress and that type of [00:21:30] thing. But it still leads to some awkward questions as he's growing up, because my family has been very firm in telling him he's a boy, although if he's not a boy, all the all the best to him. And I think the fact that he has told Good Boy so often has made him develop a gender binary in his mind. So he will come up to [00:22:00] me and go Mummy, if I'm a boy, are you a girl? And trying to answer that in a way that makes sense to a three year old is kind of hard just knowing that because he's got this binary in his head now from spending so much time around a conservative family that won't acknowledge more than a binary or the fact [00:22:30] that people don't identify the way they were born may make things more difficult to him. But I will feel because I know about myself. I will feel more comfortable. I do, um, explaining it to him as he gets older. I'm just not sure how to tell a three year old that no Mummy's not a boy or a girl, because it leads to the questions that are What are you then, Mummy? And he can't quite see [00:23:00] how it would work. Do you feel a sense of kind of invisibility? Or, I guess, maybe isolation when people in, I guess queer circles find out that you're a parent. Like, do they find that as a surprise in some ways, and even in in both the queer circles and outside the queer circles. When my family found out I was pregnant, they told me, Oh, so this means you won't like girls anymore. [00:23:30] Um, I have been involved with one Penis. That does not mean I only want to be involved with Penis, um, and even made demisexuality leading. Or sometimes it's even closer to asexuality them. Hearing me define how I feel about [00:24:00] sexual encounters in general and then hearing that I have a child, I get confrontations. That would be either. But you've had sex because they can't seem to understand that just because I can't physically get past that with some people or most people that I wouldn't have done it before, or the people [00:24:30] who assume that because pansexual means I have the ability to be attracted to it, everyone doesn't correspond with the fact that I won't want to physically be involved with someone and then going after finally making that connection. Hearing that I have a child confuses them. What do you think are some of the, um, biggest kind of challenges and issues facing, um, maybe yourself [00:25:00] or maybe just generally in the kind of care in terms communities. That is a big question. There are. There are and I think will be always people who refuse to accept the fact that people are not the way they want them to be, whether that be in terms of sexuality or gender. There will be family or friends or strangers [00:25:30] on the street who will see you and either not accept or out of spite purposefully misgender or make fun of you for who you are or who you appear to be. That humanity is really the problem there. But, um, while it may get [00:26:00] easier as the generations go on to be more more accepting about certain parts of people, they will always find something new or even something old that they don't like. Um, what advice would you give to a younger you or or someone a young person kind of going through some of the same struggles you've been through? [00:26:30] Don't be afraid to be who you are, no matter what religion or what your family says. There are people who accept you for who you are and for who you love. It's like the full version of the quote. Blood is thicker than water. People usually take that to mean your family is most important. It the full quote is the blood of the covenant is thicker [00:27:00] than the water of the womb, which means the people you choose to have in your life will be more important than those who will tell you that that you are wrong. Nothing that you think of as an insecurity was an insecurity until a family member or a close loved one tells you that they don't like it. And what's your favourite thing about being a young sexual [00:27:30] homosexual, um, gender fluid person in New Zealand, finding new ways to be myself and be around other people who are happy about who they love and who they are.

IRN: 857
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_rainbows_vee.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004347
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089641
TITLE: Vee - Beyond Rainbows
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Ara Taiohi; Auckland Pride Festival; Australia; Beyond Rainbows (series); Big Gay Out (Auckland); Coronation Street (tv); Department of Corrections; Gay Auckland Business Association (GABA); Heather Carnegie; Melbourne; Māori; Pink washing; Pride parade (Auckland); Tabby Besley; United States of America; Wellington; activism; advice; androgynous; bicurious; bisexual; blogs; bullying; butch; cis; clothing; coming out; dating; depression; eating disorders; fat; fat politics; feminism; femme; friends; gender; gender identity; homelessness; homophobic bullying; identity; internet; internet dating; language; lesbian; makeup; media; mental health; mental illness; monosexual; pansexual; parents; police; politics; pride; protest; psychiatrist; queer; relationships; representation; respect; rural; social anxiety; straight; transgender; tumblr. com; twitter. com; txt; university; women; youth
DATE: 6 March 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Vee talks about identifying as a queer, femme, fat, amazing person who has a mental illness.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I am queer fem fat, amazing person, Uh, who has a mental illness. Do you wanna, um, tell me a little bit more about, um, what some of those identities mean to you? Yeah. Uh, so for me, um, being FM is about being able to be who I am. When I first sort of realised that I was really, really queer, I [00:00:30] thought that that meant that I had to, um, be super butch and shave all my hair off. And I just had a lot of kind of I had a really difficult time, and I moved to uni, and I was It was it was amazing. And it was also just horrible. Um, and then I slowly kind of realised that actually, I can wear lipstick and I can wear dresses. And also, if I don't want to and I want to wear my plaid and my docks, it's also completely acceptable. Um, [00:01:00] and I think that was the biggest kind of moment for me was realising that, um that even though I liked, because at the time I was I identified as a lesbian, which I don't anymore. But, um, the biggest thing was realising that I could be queer and also fem and that even though it sometimes meant that I was invisible um, it was OK. Um, the biggest thing about being th is that [00:01:30] I've discovered is that, um you go to the gay bar and you're just seen as being a straight person who's there with their gay best friend, Um, which is always really fun. It's not fun at all. Um, I've had people who I went to high school with who are openly queer come up to me and be like, What are you doing here? And I'm like, Well, the same thing you are probably like trying to trying to meet a babe. And they're like, No, but you're not You're not gay. And I was like, Well, [00:02:00] actually, I am a bit, um in terms of being fat, it's also, um, been quite difficult, especially in terms of, um I guess, like gender identity kind of stuff, because I have days where I want to be really endogenous. And it took a long time for me to realise that you can be androgynous without having to be super thin and wearing like men's clothes. [00:02:30] And, um and now I'm just like, yeah, I'm an endogenous fan sometimes which a lot of people don't really understand. And sometimes I don't understand, but I think that's the beauty of it. Um, how did you realise that it was OK to to be to be those things, a lot of Internet? Um, I don't read books. I find it quite difficult to read books and to read like, scholarly articles and things. [00:03:00] So a lot of it was literally just, um probably tumblr, to be honest, Um, when I was really sick, um, and not going to university, Um, because I was super mentally ill and crazy. I would just be online all the time on Tumblr and Twitter and get linked to blog posts. And you see people discussing things. And that was really how I kind of went from being a tiny baby lesbian who was a super white feminist TM [00:03:30] to being like, um, an intersectional queer feminist. Um, so it's it's taken a while, and but I'm at a good space. I think right now can be better, though. Definitely. Um, I guess when you were kind of growing up in this figuring out your, um, sexuality What did you feel like there were messages or the idea of I guess at that point for being lesbian was to be but to [00:04:00] be, Yeah, yeah, so because I'm I mean, I don't like admitting it, but I'm generally attracted to more masculine presenting people. And I was like, in order to be attracted to those people, I definitely have to present in a very thin way. And then I was like, No, I don't I need to be really butch. And it was just, you see, on V and in media, the present of like, um, the fem girl is always actually just she's bisexual, but actually, she's not bisexual. She's just she's actually [00:04:30] just straight, but she's like trying to impress men. Um, or the other side of it is the, um, like, shaved head. Really butch often really fat, Um, like stone butch looking people. And so it's like one or the other, and there's no kind of middle ground. Um, so I think that definitely, um and I wanted to be seen. I didn't want to be invisible. I wanted people to know I was queer because I'd grown up in a sort of [00:05:00] semi rural setting and had just been teased for ages about being gay. And everyone kind of knew before I did. And so I was like, Well, now I'm in Wellington. I'm in this big city, and there are lots of queer people, and it's amazing you can be yourself. So I'm gonna make sure that everyone knows that I'm super super gay. How did you do that? Um, I What did I do? I think I shaved off one side of my hair. I already [00:05:30] had quite short hair, but I shaved off one side, and I, um, started wearing do maddens because I was, like, everyone has to wear do martens if they're a lesbian. Um, and I got some shirts, Um, and I sort of stopped wearing dresses and skirts and generally kind of got a lot more like grungy, um, which was like it was a good aesthetic, but definitely, um, not something that I think I truly [00:06:00] kind of felt like I fitted in with or belonged with. Yeah, um, And what was your journey from, um, from using the word least been moving to queer for your sexuality and gender. Um, I went from lesbian to bisexuals. When I first kind of came out, I was like, I'm bisexual and it was really difficult. Um, my mom, Immediately when I came out as bisexual, she literally put me in the car and drove me to a psychiatrist. And we had a discussion, [00:06:30] and my mom was really not OK with it. And she thought I was doing it to spite her. So I kind of just stayed as bisexual because I kind of that's what I thought it was. Um and then I was like, No, I'm actually a lesbian. Um, and then I kind of realised that No, I was I was interested in men, and then I kind of realised that there are other identities that fit outside of that. Um, so I kind of toyed with the idea of pansexuality, um, and [00:07:00] stuff to do with not being sort of mono sexual and things like that. But I realised that queer was a lot better because it fitted in with, um, my sexuality as well as my gender identity. Um, and it also seems like a lot more of a political word of what at the time, I was very angry and political, um, and feminist. And I thought that that was probably the right way to go about describing myself. Um, and it's reclaiming a word that people use [00:07:30] to hurt people. Like my parents are of the age where that's an acceptable word to use to describe something that's not right. And I feel like I'm not right sometimes. So it fits quite well. Yeah. And what about when you were first kind of, um, realising your sexuality was different to the norm. What was that like? I remember I have this really vivid memory of being I must have been. I was in year nine. I think. So. I must have been about 12, or maybe 13. [00:08:00] And I remember talking to my friends about the idea of being bi curious, and they were all like, Oh, that's that's so gross. What do you mean? And I was like, Well, no. Are you not curious at all about what it's like to, like kiss another girl? Um and I actually got them all being like, Oh, yeah, Well, I guess I am bi. Um so I think that was I didn't really think much of it at the time, but looking back on it, there are definitely things that I'm like. Oh, that probably, um was me [00:08:30] kind of experimenting and testing the waters and things like that. Um, and I know my mom would watch Coronation Street, and there was a gay man, um, on the show, Um, and she was really, really, um, sort of supportive of him and I. I think I asked her once what she would do if one of her kids was gay. And I think the sort of reaction was like, Oh, it's OK if it's someone else's kid, but not mine. I don't think I could deal with that. Um and so [00:09:00] it was something I didn't really kind of want to talk about for ages. And then, um, I was really, really sick, and I decided that it was time to probably tell my mom because it had kind of been eating away at me. Um and so I told her, and that's when um, she kind of was not particularly impressed. Um, we literally never discussed it ever again. Um, for a good couple of years, until I got really mentally unwell again and her way of bringing it up was asking [00:09:30] if I was, um, depressed because of that thing we talked about a couple of years ago. Um, so I guess for me, it's been like there have been people that I'm really, really open about talking about gender and sexuality and stuff with and other people who I don't want to go anywhere near it with. So I'm still not completely out, and it's still, like a journey. Um, but I know [00:10:00] that someone who really helped me was, um and I don't think he necessarily I don't think he realises what he did, but, um, he was he did theatre with me. Um, and he was quite a few years older than me, and he was so gay, and he was so out. And he was just amazing. And the kindest dude ever, Um, and I as I was starting to sort of realise my sexuality and stuff, I would text him about what it was like for him coming out. And, um, we would discuss [00:10:30] that, like, late at night at, like, 12 at night, when everyone was asleep, and it was all very secret. And I was kind of just sort of Yeah, it was all very secret for a very long time. Yeah. Then I came to Wellington, and I was like, Look at me. I'm a fan, and so has your experience of, um, mental illness Has that intersected with your queer identity? I think I mean, a lot of a lot. A lot, a lot. [00:11:00] Probably Almost all. I think statistically, I'm not sure if the statistics, but, I mean, queer people have really, really high rates of mental illness, So, uh, 100% I fully believe that probably part of it is to do with that, especially in terms of the reaction of people around me when I came out and not wanting to come out and things like that. Um, my psychiatrist didn't help when she The first question she asked me was, Do I have dreams about girls and boys? And I had to answer [00:11:30] that in front of my mom, which at 15, was like, I felt completely inappropriate. Um, so I've kind of It's definitely, I think impacted on that, Um but I think there are a lot of reasons why I have mental illness and various different mental illnesses, and I think part of it is genetics. Part of it is, um, being fat. Um, I had a lot of problems with that growing up, so I've always been fat. I was born fat, and I've stayed [00:12:00] fat. Um, but it's I've definitely found it. Sometimes I have really, really bad social anxiety, and it makes it difficult going to events. Sometimes I find that it's really hard to go to inclusive events because they don't really exist. And then sometimes the anxiety or being unwell and not being able to sort of get out of the house to actually go to them. Um, and I found that a lot of the queer people I've met who I've [00:12:30] wanted to stay friends with, I haven't been able to purely because I haven't been able to sort of leave the house sometimes to be able to maintain a friendship with them. Um, so it's definitely kind of impacted a lot of places in my life, but I think especially the queer part of my life as well Has there been times where you've been, um, able to kind of find that, um I guess, like community in real life? Or is that something that's important [00:13:00] to you, Or has that meant that, um, that maybe the internet is like a place where you, um, find a little of that kind of community or Yeah, especially, um, when I was sick, the internet was 100%. Um, the only place that I would I had a community. Um, now that I'm reasonably well, I feel like I have that offline, but definitely, um, things like Tumblr and Twitter. Um, blogs were, um, really important [00:13:30] to me maintaining a community. And it wasn't It wasn't just queer people, though. A lot of them were queer. Um, it was amazing feminist people, and I learned a lot about fat politics as well. Um, and just kind of realising that my body was OK being fat and that as someone who doesn't really feel sis, but definitely looks sis, um, it's been kind of good to realise that, actually, [00:14:00] I can be who I want to be, But also, I don't have to look that way if that makes sense, um, which has been It was the most I think important part in a lot of ways was the internet. Internet was such a great invention. amazing. Um, yeah. I feel like I have a community. Not so much anymore now that I've got a sort of a full time job. But I definitely I've made a lot of friends. Um especially [00:14:30] in the States. I have a best friend in Melbourne now. We met in real life for the first time after meeting online about three years ago, and I saw her over Christmas. She's an amazing, beautiful, queer feminist And, um, like it's just it's kind of it's amazing to think that you can have these friendships that start out online and then actually become real life friendships that are queer people as well. It's really great. Is [00:15:00] it hard? Um, not having those parts of your identity read? Um, yeah, I think I was thinking about this earlier, and I think, um, I don't mind it so much. I don't mind if I am called, um, by I guess, like my birth name, because at work, that's something that has to happen. So I'm OK with that, um, at the moment. And, um, I feel like it's OK at the moment. Being [00:15:30] red assessed by a majority of people like at work and things. For instance, Um, I think the hardest part is when people who you've already talked to who you've already said, Please don't call me this. Um, you know, they continue to do that, and part of it is forgetting. And part of it, I think, is just them being lazy. I don't know. Um, it's quite difficult sometimes. Um, I think I don't identify as Trans, because I feel like [00:16:00] I don't, um I'm not trans enough, if that makes sense. Um, but I don't I don't feel like I'm sis either. Um, so not feeling trans enough is a bit of a hard thing to deal with. Um, don't feel like I can partake in, like, Rendon events. Um, um, sometimes I feel like I read an article once, and it was sort of said that, um, it was a really bad article like I. I don't agree with it, but it's kind of stuck with me and that, um a [00:16:30] lot of people these days don't feel comfortable being women because they're such minorities and you know, so oppressed that they decide that they want to be sort of even more oppressed. So they say they're not women just so that they don't have to, like, deal with it. Um, and I sort of feel like maybe that's how people read me sometimes is, um is just not wanting to say that I'm a woman because of all the baggage that comes with that. So, um, yeah, I try really hard not to let that get to me, but I think that was a very bad article. [00:17:00] It was sort of stick with me for the rest of my life. Yeah. Um, and how would you explain it to people? How would I I don't know. Because I can't even explain it to myself sometimes. Um, I don't know. It's just some days I wake up and I'm like, I definitely want to wear a dress today. Um, but I wish that I didn't have boos and that, um I had no hair today, but, I mean, we [00:17:30] can be be completely inappropriate for me in my job to shave all my hair off right now. Um, and some days I wake up and I want the same thing, but I want to make sure that I'm wearing, like, a pant suit or something. I don't own a pantsuit. But, gosh, that would be so good. Um, so it's It's kind of just I don't feel right sometimes in my body, Um, and I've had partners in the past who haven't really respected that. And it's been really shitty that someone who you think, [00:18:00] um, because they're queer and they're more likely to know these sorts of things and they don't sort of respect that. And they just sort of read you as this no matter how many times you say And, um so I think that's the worst part is when it's it's partners and people you're intimately involved with and things like that, Um, that's real stink. Would you like to talk about makeup and definitely I want to talk about makeup. Um, I have also been thinking a lot about makeup for fem people [00:18:30] because I know some, um, trans dudes who are super fem and wear makeup, Um, and like nail polish and things. And, um, I've been thinking a lot about that, um because I guess there's someone who, um I mean, I'm not a trans guy, but I like gender non conforming, even though it looks like I conform to a gender. Um, And how? Wearing makeup like, I can be the most fem little princes ever. Like I can have a full face of makeup. Um, [00:19:00] and I really like the idea of, um, like, fem guys being able to wear makeup as well. Um, and having amazing red lipstick. And I have a friend and he was the best red lipstick ever. Um, but I think that he is often, um, read as being AC. AC like woman or girl. I guess. Um, and I just like that must be really hard for him. Um, and I guess [00:19:30] I have a lot of thoughts about that, but I guess I can't actually get them out. So maybe I don't want to talk about that. Maybe that's something I need to think more about, Um how are clothes and makeup important to you and the way you express um, yourself and your clothes used to be really, really important to me and makeup. I was looking at pictures of me from two years ago. Um and I would wear like, a dog collar every day and just like ridiculously crazy outfits and [00:20:00] especially when I was going to uni and things I could wear a lot more, um, kind of ridiculous outfits. And I think a lot of it was that I wanted people to notice me still, but I also didn't want people to notice me. Um, and close. Yeah. I've gotten a lot fatter over the past couple of months, and I no longer fit a lot of my clothes, and I'm finding it really difficult, um, to have clothes that fit me and to be able [00:20:30] to buy clothes. Um, And so clothes have become a really important part of my life right now just because I'm constantly thinking about them and wondering where I'm going to buy them from and if I'm just going to continue to get fatter, Um, but they're super important in makeup. Um, as a trained makeup artist, makeup is super important to me as well. Um, I wish that I was able to wear makeup every day, but I don't have the time to do that. Um, but sometimes my favourite [00:21:00] thing to do when I'm feeling super duty is to just put on a full face of makeup, and it's almost like I'm and I've just become this other person and it's great. And I like being able to change my clothes to show different parts of how I'm different ways that I'm feeling different gender identities, all that kind of stuff. Um, it's very important to me. How do you feel with those All those different identities that you talked about? Um, [00:21:30] I mean, obviously, um, I guess lots of them are kind of about being a minority within the I guess. Rainbow community, Um and what are some ways that you kind of see or feel or experience that happening? I think because of the people I surround myself with, surround myself with Yes, Yes, that's the word. Um, at the moment, I'm really into. If someone doesn't respect me or respect my politics or has just awful opinions, I'm really into removing [00:22:00] them from my life because I don't have time for that shit anymore. Um, and so, um, I feel at the moment the people I surround myself with, I actually feel really comfortable with how I look and how I present, um, being fat. And them it's things like online dating and things like that. I've just had horrible experiences with online dating, um, and just, Yeah, I think I think my online profile possibly makes it seem like [00:22:30] I'm maybe, like, a lot more butch or something than I am and probably skinnier because I've gotten a lot fatter. But, um, just people seem to meet up in real life, and it's just it's it's not what they expect. I don't think, um and so I think that's the hardest part. Is like people who I don't know who people who I've sort of had online relationships with, and then we've met up in real life, and it's kind of like, Oh, that person doesn't really look like how I thought they would, um, But my people who [00:23:00] I surround myself with in the Rainbow community at the moment is generally really good. Um, there are obviously people who are not so great. Um, I went to Big Gay out last year. Um, I recall having a few words spoken to me. Um, I find just gay men particularly, um, particularly wonderful at being able to. Their vocabulary is very colourful. Some of the things that they say Um yeah, [00:23:30] I think a lot of that, though, is that they have a lot of issues that they have to deal with to conform. Um, a lot of eating disorders and that in the community. And so they just project that onto other people, which is a bit crap. But, um, in general, I actually, I feel a lot. I feel quite OK with where I am. Hm. What advice would you give to her? A younger. You experience a tiny V? Yeah. [00:24:00] Um, I don't know. Or another person kind of experiencing some of the things that you've experienced. I think the main thing that I wish that I'd kind of realised sooner was that you need to just get rid of the shit people in your life. Um, and maybe you can go back to them when I've read a few books or learned a few things. But you don't want people in your life who are telling you that you're not worth it. Um, because [00:24:30] no matter what it's about, um, whether it's to do with being queer or whether it's to do with your being fat or whatever, like it's just it's not OK, I would. That's my biggest kind of regret. Is just remaining friends for so long with people who constantly put me down. But I like to think that now I'm much better than them. Um, definitely 100% a babe, Um, and their ugly personalities make them [00:25:00] an ugly person. These are my opinions. What are some of the biggest challenges that you experience? Um, being part of this community or or maybe issues that you see facing the wider community that you like, changed? I feel like I don't have that many issues at the moment. I think trans issues are really, really important. [00:25:30] Um, and also, um, youth issues. But I think people people sort of see the rainbow community as being white people. And it's not It's just it's so not We need to care more about Trans Woman, especially trans women of colour especially, um, like the things that happened at pride recently, Um, with and the other people involved, Um, and I'm friends with trans women [00:26:00] who have no money because they can't get jobs and all sorts of shit that happens to them. That doesn't happen to this woman. And, you know, I know, um, they identify like as brown trans people and, you know, they're homeless and stuff like that, and it's awful. We need to absolutely care more about that. Um, it's not just white people. Yeah, um, can you tell me a little [00:26:30] bit more about what happened to pride and what your feelings are about? Later, Um, so at pride, Um, there were three people who decided that they wanted to protest. Um, a peaceful protest is my understanding and the inclusion of police officers and corrections staff being involved in the Pride parade. Um, traditionally, pride parades have been, um, protests. Um, that pride has slowly become more sort of corporation and people giving money, which [00:27:00] I guess like, I understand that I mean pink washing to get money from corporations. But also, I just have a lot of feelings about that anyway, so they, um, protested and, um, they went over the barrier, and, um, there were two white presenting people. And then there was, um, who was a, um, Maori Trans woman. And the security guards went for her and not for the other white people. Um, and in the process broke her arm. [00:27:30] Um, and there's just been a literal shit storm of things that people have said and done, and not done. And, um, my understanding is that the leader of GABA or someone really high up in, which is the gay business? Do you know what it stands for? The gay Auckland business as gay Auckland Business Association. Um, grab someone's phone who was recording the arrest because Amy was arrested [00:28:00] and hurled it, um, accidentally, obviously in court because they've seen the foot, and it was it was not accidental and broke the phone. Um, so there are people in high places who just don't give a shit. Um, and it's disgusting, and I'm super appalled. And the fact that people were saying that, um, you need to not protest you need to actually be involved in the parade. And then I had other friends who were involved [00:28:30] in the parade and doing a silent protest in the parade, walking through it, and people were hurling abuse at them for not being cheery and glittery and, you know, completely colourful. Um, so my feelings are that pride is a bit shit, to be honest. Yeah. What's your favourite thing about being a young queer person [00:29:00] in New Zealand? Um, I think my favourite thing is probably the people I've met, Um, the journey I've been through, which has been awful. It's been just I mean, it's a wonder I'm still alive, to be honest, Um, but I don't know if it's necessarily like I've It was all for the the, you know, It was all for the great cause. And now I'm It's an amazing person, I don't know, like whether my life will still be great in another few [00:29:30] years time, Who knows? But, um, right now I think just the people I've kind of met through all of the things and, um, little queer families that we all belong in the little community. It was all very cute. And basically, yeah, the people who I have in my in my life right now are all amazing. And I think that's definitely the best part about it. Is having people that I can talk to if I need to, um, people who feel like they [00:30:00] can talk to me. We can all just cuddle together eating chips, talking about babes. The other is definitely the best. Yeah.

IRN: 856
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/butch_on_butch_tasha.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004346
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089640
TITLE: Tasha - Butch on Butch
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 1080 poison; 2000 Summer Olympic Games (Sydney); 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asia / Oceania Powerlifting Championships; Butch on Butch (exhibition/series); Christchurch; Commonwealth Games; Dunedin; Jac Lynch; Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI); Olympic Games; Palmerston North; Powerhouse Gym (Wellington); Wellington; World Powerlifting Championship; athletics; butch; cycling; drug testing; fitness; friends; gym; hammer throw (athletics); identity; in the zone; pets; powerlifting; reading; rugby; sci-fi; sponsorship; sport; surfing; touch rugby; transcript online; travel; veterinarian; weight lifting; women
DATE: 22 March 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Dash nine weeks today. I understand you're off to the world Champs, is it? Yeah. Can you tell us a bit about what that's going to be about? That that's the world powerlifting champ. So this will be my first world champ for power lifting? Yeah. Super excited about it. Currently currently ranked fifth. So I'm hoping to bring home some silverware. Fantastic. And you brought home silverware, I think before, um, from the Oceania champs end of last year, you brought home the gold and all three lifts and the [00:00:30] total. And what did the lifts involve? So power lifting is squat. Bench press and the lift. And what weights were you lifting? So for the squad did 100 and 70 kg. Bench press is 97. 5 kg and dead. Lift 100 and 95 kg. Had you lifted those before? Uh, not the squad and bench. I have actually done a 200 kg dead lift and, um, in competition far out. It's like over a couple of people. Really, isn't it? It was, [00:01:00] uh yeah, 462. 5 K total, but I'm gunning for the 500 kg total you know, like nice round numbers. So what? What What does your training involve? Currently? It's six days a week. Most sessions are about two hours. Those the odd session will go for 33, 3. 5 hours and yeah, basically doing the three lift squat bench dead most days. So it's you work full time. Yeah, Yeah, full time work. Plus the girls, as in my, [00:01:30] um +24 legged the dogs And, um, yeah, that takes up all my time. There's not a lot of down time for me. So I've I'm in your lounge and I can see on your wall a, um, a poster from the the official Sydney 2000 Olympic Games. And it's the opening ceremony in 15th September 2000. It's got lots of signatures all over it. Are you somewhere in that picture? I sure am. I was part of the New Zealand athletics team, and yeah, [00:02:00] that's absolutely amazing experience. But back in the back, in my what I call my heyday, I was a hammer thrower, and yeah, I got to the Olympics and two Commonwealth games as well as the world champs. Oh, cool. Um, if you were you involved in sports at school? Like it seems a silly question. I imagine you were It Was it that kind of sports? Yeah. Oh, no. I was a sprinter at school, so Yeah, 100 metre sprinter. Plus, I played touch rugby, rugby at the, um, local club [00:02:30] was on the cycling team, played basketball, and you did athletics. And when did you move into? Not the hammer throw? Yeah, I was at varsity when I met my sprint coach, and he turned me into hammer thrower. He said, Oh, you're never going to be an international sprinter, which got to be a freak to be an international sprinter. But he said, you know, you'd make a good thrower. I picked technique up really quickly. And my, um, got strong really quick as well. So he bought a bought a hammer. We both basically learned it together and went from [00:03:00] there. Yeah, You end up in the Olympics? Yeah. Olympics. I held the New Zealand record for many years. It was only broken, I think just, um, about two years ago. It's awesome. And when did you start doing the lifting? I always did weightlifting as part of my training for hammer throw. And then when I retired from Hammer, I got back into rugby for three years and then through the rugby, I was playing for Canterbury. I, um we got back into the gym and the guy running the gym was a weightlifter I used to train with, [00:03:30] and I just got hooked into weightlifting and then did a few years weightlifting, got to a couple of Oceania and then moving to Wellington. The gym was more powerlifting. And, of course, you know, got into power lifting. And I found, um, power lifting is actually better on my body than weight lifting. Weight lifting is a lot harder on the joints. And now that I'm getting a bit older, I think power lifting is a lot easier. How old are you now? I'll be 42 this year. Ancient in sports team? Yeah. Still betting the young [00:04:00] girls, So Yeah, I bet. So you're from Christchurch? Is that right? Yeah. One. I can have room born born in Dunedin. Uh, most of my life in Christchurch studied in Palmerston North and yeah, now, four years in Wellington. What do you do for work? I work for the Ministry for Primary Industries. I am actually a qualified vet, but because I went from graduating to full time athletes when it was finally time to use my degree, the best job available was, um, with the government. [00:04:30] And actually, I really enjoy the work. A lot of variety. I started off in the freezing works as a vet at the freezing works. Now I'm in the head office and, yeah, just been introduced to the dairy industry and people like, Yeah, Fonterra and those big players. What do you do work in the food Assurance team? It's quite tricky explaining what I do but mainly sort of deal with nonconforming products and, um, exceptions. Uh, export. Non conformance is a issue when they have issues overseas, [00:05:00] and I give various exemptions as well for product to allow them to export it. Yeah, you get involved with things like this current 10 80 deal and W PC and other big issues. It can be quite challenging and full on, so it's probably quite nice to be able to go down the gym and do a bit of lifting. Yeah, and turn off from work. So when you're at the gym. Is it? Is it just yourself? Or if you got, um, training partners or it's [00:05:30] or train at the powerhouse gym, um, on street in Wellington and it's It's not your normal Joe Bloggs gym. There's one mirror, there's no instructors, and basically it's all lifters. You get a few other athletes, and for me it's a It's my family in Wellington. You know, it's just a really great bunch of people, and it doesn't matter who's there on the day you've got people to train with or people to help. So it's, you know, not training with anyone in particular, but it's just a great group of people. And then recently we've got quite a few girls lifting, and we've semi started a strong girls club. [00:06:00] So we always try and train. Do as much as we can together on Saturdays and, you know, let everyone know what everyone's doing, and we've got a girl in Christchurch and up north, which are semi part of the club. But it's just a great little supportive network as well. Is it because it's to try and support more women into the sport, or just to try and support the women who are in it? Um, a bit of both. I mean, it was just we just sort of a couple of us started training together and invited a few others to train together. [00:06:30] And it's and then, yeah, a few other girls came back to to the spot, and we've had some other young girls at comps that we've sort of taken under our wing. So it's a bit of both under your wing, sort of in a kind of mentoring way. Yeah. Yeah, more mentoring. I mean, I've got a lot of experience of training and competition and not just, you know, how you train, but so have mentally how you tackle things and on competition day and how you warm up and that kind of stuff. So that's just in a really supportive role. [00:07:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's great. You know, there's more and more women getting into the sport as well, and, you know, they're all really green. So you sort of help get them back on track. And I mean, I. I don't have time to coach, but I'm always happy to help out and sort of coach in another way. And, you know, check their technique and help them. Like I said mentally, are there How How have you found yourself being regarded within the, um that sport, like over the years within the power lifting sport and so on. I've just always been just [00:07:30] another one of the one other athlete. I mean, that's the great thing about sport. And, you know, guys, girls, whether you're gay, straight or what, You're just another athlete. And I've never, ever been judged. And, you know, I think maybe my success has helped as well. But, you know, you get respected for what you've done in what you do. How many years do you think you've got left in the power lifting world? Many, many years. There's there's a lot of masters out there still doing well And yeah, when I cause I'm still competing in opens. But, [00:08:00] um, after opens, I can always get into Masters lifting as well. Yeah, we've got Well, he's got a girl in our gym. She's well in her fifties now and still lifting phenomenal weights and still training hard. And, yeah, it's one of the sports you can actually keep going for quite some time. My biggest thing is just keeping my body in one piece. How do you manage that? Um, I go chiropractor massage once a week. I would be screwed without that. But and yeah, I try and stretch where I can and a lot of it's about getting a technique right as well. So [00:08:30] I had done a lot of work on that lately because I've had had pretty crap lifting technique in the past. But getting that right and training, training smart. You know, it's not just about going to the gym and smashing it. It's about being smart and listening to your body and eating properly as well. And what does that mean for me? Uh, eating a lot of protein. Um, power lifting is not the kind of sport that burns a lot of fat. So and where I'm in a weight class. So I've been I've been lucky. I've been trying to put on weight to get up to the [00:09:00] top of my weight class. I lift in the 80 fours, but we still I still watch my, um, carbohydrate intake. So at night, I generally don't eat any carbs. So lots of veggies, lots of protein, plenty of protein shakes and just Yeah, very clean supplements. Who care for what I take because we do get I get drug tested all the time. Yeah, with with weightlifting, I was probably tested two or three times a year. Not so much in power lifting yet, but I'm sure it'll come pee in the bottle stuff, is it? It's a pee in the bottle with your shirt [00:09:30] up your pants down to your knees so they can see everything. So they then make sure that you're not cheating, that there's yeah, you're not using tubes or anything else to try and put. Yeah, it's because of what people have done in the past to cheat. So, yeah, you can't be shy when you're an athlete. It's quite intrusive, Really. You get used to it and see when it happens. You know, 234 times a year. And you get to know the drug testers and they get to know you pretty much you walk, walk up the path [00:10:00] and they're waiting for me to say hi to you. Um, and alongside the, um, the weight lifting. Uh, what do you do? You have other other hobbies? I mean, know you don't have a lot of time, but you've got your dogs and I. I used to enjoy surfing, but I haven't been out for the last few years because I've just focused on training. But I love reading. So I read a lot of books and through a book, a week at the moment. And, yeah, I don't [00:10:30] have time for anything else. What? What sort of books are you into? Um, I'll read anything and everything. Lately, I've been in a real fantasy buzz, so reading a lot of, um, Robin Hobb Books, Brandon Sanderson. But anything I can get my hands on, um, the it must cost quite a bit to do this, the champs and so on. How do you fund that? Sort of, um, and being involved in those competitions. It's all self funded and for this trip that I'm going to world champs work has [00:11:00] given me some money, and I'll get a little bit of money out of the federation. But, I mean, I'm lucky, you know, I guess not having any kids or any other people sucking my money. I I've got a decent job and yeah, just it's all self funded. So you don't get a sponsorship or, um, it's pretty hard to get sponsorship in these sort of sports, and especially if you're not the ideal image that you know, like the pretty bimbos that they like to portray. And it's hard work, too, looking for it, and I just don't have time. And as I said, I'm I'm lucky [00:11:30] that I'm financially stable enough. I can actually support myself. Yeah, that that's good. That must be a relief to you rather than trying to chase around the money. I guess a lot of people must just not do it, and they rely on parents as well. But I, I guess I live on my visa and just pay it constantly. Pay it off. So so the look that you that you have on stage if it's not the bimbo, look what's what's your look? Oh, well, it's not really a look I've created. I mean, I'm I'm [00:12:00] just me and you know what you see is what you get, and I'm actually well, you meet me in person. I'm really shy and quiet. But when you see me in the competition arena, I'm totally opposite. I totally psych myself up for comps and make a lot of noise and just get into the zone. I don't care what other people think. You know, I'm there to lift. What do you do to get in the zone? I make a lot of noise. I yell, Oh, yeah, rock myself up and I'll get people to slap my legs and just Yeah, like I said, make a lot of noise. And then if I'm up for a really big [00:12:30] lift, I'll get the crowd in behind it as well and try and get them to make noise. And they said they love it, They respond to it. And yeah, it's really good. And, yeah, I get a lot of support And I've had a lot of people say that they love watching me live because you know how much I get into it. Um, why? Why do people slap your legs? Um, I find that just it does. It hurts, but it stimulates your legs. It draws the blood out to, um, you know where you want it, and it's just and it takes your mind off of everything else that just totally focuses you. [00:13:00] Can you give us an example of your noises. I'm not going to slip your legs. They all start the dogs barking or they'll run. I'm only kidding. You have to watch one of the live feeds for one of the comps and you'll see it. Oh, how cool and when? When is that happening? Um, most comps. There's generally a live feed, if you I'm not sure what sites they're on, but there's definitely a wee one for world champs. There's one for Oceania and a whole lot of [00:13:30] athletes at the gym set up. They set up at the gym and watch the Oceania. Are we talking about May 2015, um, June mid June. So I think I'm lifting on the 14th of June, but that'll be your time as well, So that'll be the 15th year. And where are they in Finland this year? So it's not cheap? No, not cheap. And plus, I want to go just under two weeks before so I can acclimatise. But I've been lucky. There's a girl that came out from Sweden who played rugby, [00:14:00] going to stay with her in Gothenburg and do a week and a half of training, then head over to Finland um, for the comp and then go for travelling for two weeks afterwards. Cool. Where are you going to go? I got to go to ST Petersburg. If you're that close, you got to do it and say Saint Petersburg, Helsinki. I want to go up to Stockholm and I'm flying out of Copenhagen. So I just hit the big I'm travelling on my own. So I just hit the big cities and yeah, stay safe. Stay safe. What does that mean? Well, I don't know. I mean, I love travelling, but [00:14:30] yeah, I think when you're travelling on your own, you used to be a little bit more careful. So you must have done a lot of travelling with this. Um, with the competitions, I Yeah, I've been very lucky. I've done a lot when athletics days was back and forth to Australia about four or five times a year. Plus, I played sevens in Hong Kong. I did Bob Slay for one season as well. So that took me States Canada. Um we went to Germany, Italy, through athletics. I've been here to sort of Manchester [00:15:00] a K. We went to Hungary, Croatia, as part of the build up states again. Maui, Um, did some travelling with my father. Went down through South America. And then again for my 40th, I went travelling with my parents again. Went to the states and down to Cuba and Mexico. So, yeah, I've been very I. I Yeah, Like I said, I love travelling, and I just sports just open the doors for that. Are you pretty close with your parents? You know? Yeah. Family has been really good, really supportive. [00:15:30] And two sisters and a brother who lives in the States as well. And I mean, I wouldn't say hugely close, but, you know, when we get together, we're in a great family. We have a lot of fun. And so how how supportive are they of you and getting into the sports? The, um, the side of it from the hammer of throwing through to the weight lifting? Um, they yeah, always been supportive. They came to kl watched that, uh, dad came over to Sydney for the Olympics. And, you know, Mom would come down to the [00:16:00] odd weightlifting comp. They totally non-sporty person, but and, you know, come and watch the odd rugby game. I remember the the first rugby game that she came and watched. I was still at high school, and she always said, Be careful. You'll hurt yourself for your athletics. And someone hit high, tackled me and completely rooted my shoulder. And, of course, that was the one game my parents were watching. But no, they've been really supportive of my sport. So, um, my mother was pretty super happy when I finally started using my vet degree. [00:16:30] Get you off the field? Yeah. Yeah, I think it was. Well, they did support me through varsity. So and the only one in the family that studied so and, you know, I graduated as a and then all of a sudden I became an athlete, and I think she was pretty rapt when I actually got a decent job and started using my degree. Um, so you were involved in the Butch and Butch exhibition? A portrait that we took at your gym? Um, lifting weights. Um, have [00:17:00] you heard feedback from friends about you being in the in that particular exhibition? I haven't actually none at all. That's fantastic. It's like no surprises. I know, but I mean, my friends are really supportive and they know what I do. Anyway. They know that half the time I'll say no to things because of my training. But now I've got a great bunch of friends, and I said they will know what I do. How do your friends support you with what you're doing now with your lifting and so on? Um Well, well, [00:17:30] I had a couple of friends come up and help me load some water up the steps today. But, I mean, if I if I need anything, you know, they're always there and invite me around for dinner. And there's never any pressure, never any pressure to go into anything. And because it must be, um, like, there must be a sort of no drinking rule in your life. Um, just sort of self inflicted. I mean, I've gone over the years where those big drinking days I've just sort of grown out of drinking anyway, and it just doesn't bother me. And I'd rather feel you feel [00:18:00] good in the morning. Yeah, they they're used to me going out and being a sober. I want drinking water, people slapping your legs. I say that I can't say thanks very much. Tash can. Can I just check if there's anything you want to add? Um, I? I don't know. I don't know if you want to go into the that whole butch thing. I mean, I think, Yeah, I definitely fall into society's definition of being butch. But me, I'm just myself always have been myself. [00:18:30] I've never defined myself as anything. It's just me in my own unique, special way.

IRN: 855
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/butch_on_butch_lynley.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004345
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089639
TITLE: Lynley - Butch on Butch
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 1950s; 1960s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland Stock Exchange; Butch on Butch (exhibition/series); Catholicism; Hallensteins; Jac Lynch; Karen Plummer; New Zealand Womans Weekly; North Shore; Robert Muldoon; Wellington; Whangaparāoa; World War 1; acceptance; ballroom dancing; butch; childhood toys; children; closeted; clothing; cricket; dance; dolls; domestic violence; employment; family; growing up; hockey; lesbian; lipstick lesbian; makeup; marriage; newspapers; parents; personal ad (newspaper/magazine); public servant; relationships; siblings; sport; theatre; ties; transcript online; trust; unconditional love; women
DATE: 19 March 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Lindley, you grew up on the North Shore. Is that right? Yes. Yes. Before the harbour Bridge was built. And can you tell us a bit about that time and how it was for you as a child growing up on that side of Auckland? Um, it was wonderful. Um, lots and lots of free land for us to roam and, um, play all sorts of, um, games, um, [00:00:30] the end of our street. Um, there was a really, really big mountain of earth. Huge mountain of earth. We called it the mountain. Um, and quite often we put in our cricket wickets at the bottom of the mountain. Um, and we would play for hours, cricket up and down the street, usually one side of the street against the other side of the street. It was a load of fun. It [00:01:00] was really, really great. Very little traffic bus buses ran to usually the people who, um, their timetable as opposed to a bus timetable. Good old Birkenhead transport. Um, everybody knew everybody else. It was It was incredible. It was great. Who was who was in your family? I've got two older brothers quite older than me. 67 and six years older [00:01:30] than me. Um, so, yeah, I was a surprise, And I always continued my whole childhood as a surprise. In what way? Um, if I wanted to know something, I wanted to be told about something. If something was puzzling me, I would keep on and on, and I would know if I was being fobbed off by by mum or my dad. Um, [00:02:00] the best one. I was my grandmother who lived with us for a number of years before she passed on, um, a good line for And I think some of her jeans have rubbed off on to me because she was, um, a dancer. Pre World War one. she was a dancer in, um, various theatres in London. [00:02:30] Um, and, um, yeah, she just loved life. And I think I I actually carry a lot of her jeans in me. Are you a dancer? Um, I have been a dancer. Um, many, many years ago. My mother was, um, taught ballroom dancing. And so there she held classes in the local church hall again. [00:03:00] Small area. Everybody who had a school. It was offered to the whole community. And, um we used to have dances in the church hall. So that's where you learned your ballroom dance. Was it? Yeah. And did you Did you learn to lead or follow? Um, quite often there wouldn't be enough boys. And so Yep, I led. And how is that by example? [00:03:30] Um, it was it was good. It just seemed natural. It just was totally natural because my mother was leading. She was teaching, so she was leading. So that was normal. Yeah. So how how long into your life were you dancing? Um, until I discovered cricket. Um And, um, back in the sixties, I discovered that there were [00:04:00] women's teams on the North Shore. Westlake Girls High School had a very, very good girls cricket team. I didn't go to that school, but, um and so, yes, the dancing sort of went out. I was only sort of doing it because the mother would like me to be there. So that's the only way I went dancing. But now I discover cricket and other things. So and, um, how far did you go with the cricket? Um, [00:04:30] some way. Um, no, sure. We would have to travel over to the city to play against, um, other teams. Um, I was selected once for the Ross Bowl competition. Um, but lack of funds, we couldn't travel anywhere, which was the same and one or two of my close friends. And I still, uh, you know, sort of in contact with them. Were [00:05:00] selected for the, um, women's team back in 67 or 68 to travel to England. And they went by ship. Did you go? No. No. Was it unusual for women to be playing cricket in those days? Um, once you were in it now and, um, my both my brothers, um, played cricket, and I got [00:05:30] to hear of it with one of my brother's friends. Her sister played, and it was, um, Carol, who was selected and went overseas. Um, and there was a few of them, even Karen Plummer. And I think you know, that's that's a name. That ring should ring some bells for a few people. Um, but no, it it was great. And most of the women who who actually played cricket, um, also [00:06:00] played hockey in the winter. I played once that ball just travelled right up the hockey stick and went into my nose and broke it, and I never went back. After that, you can get all sorts of bruises and bumps. And what have you from a cricket ball? But that was just bam. Nothing. Not for me. So you you're quite sporty as a young person. And, uh, and and a young adult. Yes, yes. Um, I still [00:06:30] play cricket after my sons were born. Um, that was my time. And it was OK to have that. I just felt Why the heck can't I? You know, just a few hours on a Sunday afternoon is great. Is that in Auckland? Yes. Yeah, Yeah. Again on the north Shore? Um, yeah. I was married and had the two boys. The boys loved to come with me because, you know, they were fussed [00:07:00] over and sort of taken for joints up to the dairy. Yeah. Hit a ice block. Um, how How long were you married for Wo? About 10, 12 years. Um, I had the boys. We had been married, Um, about seven years. And, [00:07:30] um, yeah, things sort of turned to custard, Made me look and made me search. Um, so although I was moving away from a situation that was a little bit violent. Having that opportunity to also look at two ways I could go and I went and accepted myself [00:08:00] as a lesbian woman. Had two really, really horrid experiences and went back into the closet for a number of years after that. But when I came moved to Wellington, um, in the nineties, I knew then because this is like lesbian feast Wellington, especially in the public service. This is, you know you [00:08:30] got And if you don't look at it and accept, OK, time out, think it through. Yeah, it fits. I fit. I'm happy. Totally. So how did you come out in Wellington? Who did you meet up with? Or, um, we've often talked about it and laughed about it. Um, but [00:09:00] we tell Linda and I tell people, How did you meet? And we say we were in media studies together. She advertised in the paper, and I saw it. So, um, and we've literally been together ever since. So that 13 years, 18 years and that was in the personal ads? Um, it used to be the contact, the local paper, the contact. It was under alternative [00:09:30] lifestyles Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she It was really It was really funny, because her does. I wasn't looking. I went home on a Friday night after work and I was sitting down and I just opened the local paper and her head just boom was as if nothing else was on the paper. It was just that Oh, what [00:10:00] the hell can't hurt. Gave it a ring. Left a message, she replied on that Sunday night. We met up about a week later, and it's been 18 years of absolute ups and downs and whatever, but it's been incredible. Incredible. Tell me about incredible, um, [00:10:30] allowing oneself to go that extra mile with them. Having the trust unconditional love, totally unconditional love. We both had to learn. We both had to discuss. We had our moments, Um, but all through that [00:11:00] and I think having the support and within her family within Linda's family amazing an amazing family. Um, it's been I've been really, really fortunate in in finding Linda, and she says the same. Yeah. How was the support from your family? Um, when I told [00:11:30] my oldest brother his wife, um what? You know, they were both together Um And I told him, and Marilyn sort of said, Well, it's about time, Um, and was just Oh, what do you want me to do or say? I said, Absolutely nothing. I'm just sort of telling you, letting you know that this is who [00:12:00] I am. Oh, yeah, yeah, I'll sit on that one. And he's been fine. He's absolutely fine. My my other brother doesn't speak to me, but that's that's it's sad, but I respect him for it. You know, if he can't or doesn't want to look into something, then yeah, [00:12:30] he is. It's just what he is. This is, you know, but I love him dearly. I'll always love him. Um, but, you know, it's just the way it is. You can't do anything. Did you have an inkling when you were young? Yes. I did know what was as I as I put in, um, my little piece for the photo for the photo shoot. Um, [00:13:00] the family next door to us. They were Catholics and about six or seven Children. And there was one in particular who she just I thought she was just amazing. I didn't connect it until a few years. down the track. But, um, she was butch. And even 40 50 years later, she is still very much she [00:13:30] ran into her recently. Is that right? I tracked her down. I tracked her down. Um, because my boys sort of live in, um, we quite often stay at, um, in a motel in. And I knew that she had moved to a and so I just looked it up in the phone book. And in fact, we were only about five or six houses away, you know, in the motel, away from where she lived. [00:14:00] And so it was awesome to go and see her. Um, and yeah, she's just the same. Maybe even a bit more shorter. She used to say that she was 5 ft and a quarter. And what made us stand out for you when you were young? Um, a her job. She delivered [00:14:30] in a little van motor car parts. Um, and she would she She was really, really family orientated. She was always there for her mum. And I would sort of see, especially it was in the school holidays, and, um, she [00:15:00] be out coming up the past. Hi, mate. Do you want to come out with me this afternoon. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, I would go out with her, sit in the car, and we just talk about anything and everything but I. I didn't I couldn't put a pin on it. I couldn't. I can't, Actually, even now, it was just something that I knew. [00:15:30] Deep down I knew. And time will tell because I Mum, my mother would sort of say, Oh, did you go out with her again? OK, yeah. It was neat fun. We went here, there, and everywhere you go, you'll have to stop doing that. And I just sort of held it in. I didn't No, I You know, I won't. So you just you you liked [00:16:00] her. There was something about her that was appealing rather than an attraction as such, um, an attraction? Yeah, Um, a kind of inner knowing I'm going to be like that are I'm talking about an eight or nine year old. You gotta remember I was an inquisitive kid. If I couldn't get what I thought was an honest answer, I pushed [00:16:30] and pushed until I did. How old was she? Oh, she would have been in her twenties. She would have been in her twenties, you know, But, I mean, she she had the amazing thing. I would watch her come home after work, and you know her, obviously her partner at the time. And I lived [00:17:00] in that house, you know, their own bedroom in that house for Roman Catholic family. Totally and utterly accepted. See? So that's all of that was at the back of my mind because I could hear I mean, you know Oh, here you go. You know, or my brothers would say something derogatory. [00:17:30] And I say, Oh, but I didn't know why I was feeling if they heard them say things like that, I didn't know. But it wasn't until all the puzzle. It was quite quickly when I got old enough for the pieces to fall in. And when you met up with her again, did you talk about how it was for you when you were both young? Yeah, well, she said and I've just remembered [00:18:00] which relates to what you now call on. But Bob, her older, her older brother used to call me Bob. Um, so yeah, I think they did. recognise it because the other girls in the street would be given dolls. My father made the most wonderful doll's house for me. It had electric lights and everything. I never played with it. [00:18:30] I wanted a cap gun or Roman sandals. Happiest in t-shirt and shorts. Yeah, in the narrative that you wrote for the exhibition, you told this beautiful story about, um wearing a wearing a tie to go see your doctor. Can you tell us that story again? Um, I had to go down to see Doctor D, and [00:19:00] I had not long started at the intermediate school. And it was I loved it because you had a white shirt, but you had a dark red tie. And so I was all set to go on to school after the doctor visit, and I walked into his room and he was sitting always sitting behind his desk and he looked up and he said, Who told you? [00:19:30] I did. Goes to the door, opens it up, call out to the nurse, set up a few bandages, would you? So we go down to the dressing room and he showed me how to tie the perfect wins or not, And the double wins are not tie. And we didn't finish until I had a decent looking [00:20:00] tie. And I loved tha back then. And I love them now, and there's nothing worse than seeing even one of the guys on TV. I can't help it. I look at their tie and I go, Oh, he doesn't know how to do it, OK, because I saw you, um, when I first started working here because we work at the same place. Um, and I saw [00:20:30] you and I've seen you in your tie in your waistcoat and you look fantastic and you stand out in in this place even though the public service is full of lesbians like you say, Um, do you do you find yourself comfortable in in this work environment? Oh, totally. Um, I guess I'm lucky the most because I work my work as IT, um, [00:21:00] and so I can get away with wearing polo shirts, shirts with a tie. Um, so I'm totally, in fact, what you've raised, um, sort of on on clothing. Public servants. When I first started back in the nineties down here, you could tell a public servant a mile long black and white white [00:21:30] shirt, white tops, black trousers, black skirt. But now they the guys don't wear ties. Um, they wear polo shirts. They wear just about anything. Um, it's changed. And so I think I've as I've gotten more comfortable, so has [00:22:00] the way I dress. I feel comfortable to be who I am and what I wear. That's yeah, that's pretty much it. That's a nice place to get to. It is, it is. I mean, Helens STS have had the fantastic sales on polos polo shirts [00:22:30] with button down collars. Wonderful. Totally thanks. That, um that was a lovely interview. Can I just check if there's anything that you want to add? There's something that I would like to mention that actually I'm quite proud of. Um, I worked for the Auckland Stock Exchange back in about 1968 69 and they had the call over system then, [00:23:00] and that's where the stockbrokers would all come into the into the room and sit at desks. Um, and the session was opened. Transactions and shares were completed, and then it was closed. Well, Auckland Stock Exchange actually went ahead and went and bought their own building. And they went to the, [00:23:30] um, stock board. So and I was the first and the first woman on a stock exchange floor in New Zealand. I have photo. I was interviewed for women's weekly. Um, it was it was incredible. The building was opened by Robert Muldoon. God, let her, um and [00:24:00] yeah, I am. I often wonder if they've kept those records here. I've seen the photo. You look very glam in your skirt. That's the one that is the one. Yes, indeed. I did wear high heels and stockings and makeup. How did that feel? It just felt normal. It's only in the last five or six years that I actually stopped wearing makeup. Um, I don't [00:24:30] know, some a lot of the makeup. It just irritates. And it flares up, especially eye makeup around my eyes. Um, so I don't I just That's a reason for not wearing it, but yeah, lipstick. Lesbian that I was.

IRN: 849
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/butch_on_butch_creek.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004344
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089638
TITLE: Creek - Butch on Butch
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Creek
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Butch on Butch (exhibition/series); Clitocybe nuda; Creek; Dunedin; Hokitika; Jac Lynch; Jools Topp; K. D. Lang; Lynda Topp; Methodist; Otari-Wilton's Bush; Topp Twins; Wellington; West Coast; academics; assimilation; attraction; biodiversity; butch; butch phobia; butch solidarity; capitalism; celibate; clothing; community; confidence; conservative; consumerism; culture; divorce; family; femininity; feminism; femme; friends; fungi; gender identity; growing up; homogenisation; honesty; hyperfemininity; hypermasculinity; identity; insistence; kaupapa; language; lesbian; love; marriage; marriage equality; media; melodrama; mentor; monogamy; mushrooms; open relationship; parents; patriarchal system; persistence; queer; relationships; resistance; role model; rural; self esteem; self hate; sexism; sexuality; shame; shorts; social justice; submissive; support; tomboy; transcript online; transgressive; transmasculine; transmasculinity; trust; vulnerability
DATE: 9 March 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Creek talks about identifying as a butch female submissive transmasculine lesbian.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Butchers my gender and female, my sex and submissive, my sexuality and lesbian. How I fall in love and trans masculine is equally my gender trans as in transgressive illegal not how most people want a female body to be embodied. I write these things with confidence, but don't ask me to explain the language has too many sharp corners and I don't want to back myself into one and long ago, making concrete conclusions ceased to be the purpose of thinking about this stuff. I don't like concrete anyway. [00:00:30] It deprives us of versatile space. I like fungi. Fungi are everywhere, sometimes invisible, sometimes visible, insistently living and vastly, wildly, unimaginably diverse. They remind me I have a right. We all do as queers to be an active participant in biodiversity. Not merely a frightened bystander. Greg. When we when we went to take your photo, we went into Wilton Bush and to that reserve, and we were [00:01:00] on a hunt for fun. Um, to go, uh, with your with your photo and just to have us, um, as as part of your how you wanted to be yourself. You've You've mentioned it in your narrative. Um, could you Could you go into that a little bit more for us? Sure. Um, I, I spend a lot of my spare time reading about or thinking about mushrooms and going out into the forest. Um, I guess ostensibly to look for them. [00:01:30] Um, sometimes I just go for walks anyway. But I My, my my vision has become quite acutely honed towards looking for mushrooms. Now I can spot them at 100 metres. Um uh, and I associate them with queerness because I guess we are living in a a consumer capitalist world that's heavily focused on homogenising us. And now our [00:02:00] our genders, our sexualities, our culture, um, trying to trying to package everyone into feminine female and, like, hyper feminine and highly hygienic and sterilised feminine female bodies. And likewise for male bodies. Um, and I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in biodiversity. Uh, and in the fungal kingdom is where I see that the the most strongly pronounced there are 1. 5 million [00:02:30] species of mushroom. Probably. They have definitely more than two of what we would call sexes. They have, um I don't know how many some species have got, like, five different kinds of mating combinations that are required to produce mushrooms. And sometimes there are multiple parent species that parent a specific one organism of a fungus, and they they are [00:03:00] very persistent. They crop up everywhere, you can put asphalt over them, and sometimes the mushroom will still come up through that. And I think that speaks a lot about resistance and insistence and persistence. Um, so I admire them, and I find them very refreshing as well. They're surprising and colourful and good. So I've known you a little while now, and, um, hearing you speak about like that makes me think [00:03:30] of some of the people around you. That's right. That's right. I am surrounded by exciting mushrooms. Um, yeah, They like certain species, have got some quite queer names as well. There's one called called which is this great purple mushroom. Um, and, uh, I guess that, um my my husband and wife Shan is is quite a, um quite a rarity and [00:04:00] quite colourful. She's got bright pink hair at the moment. She can get it cut off soon, but anyway, she she could be a mushroom. I suppose, in that kind of exciting and colourful way I love it. Um, you you talk about Butch being your gender. Whe when did you When did you come to that? Um, I have a butch mentor who lives in Sydney. Um, I think she would be happy to have that that title of mentor, And, uh, [00:04:30] she was a friend of my previous partner. And so I've known her for maybe 10 years now, and I ever since 18 I was I was always sure about my sexuality. In fact, more sure about it, I think, than I am now, um, as a that was as a lesbian identified person. Um, but it didn't really crossed my mind to think about myself as well. Think about Butch and film very much until this person, we [00:05:00] were having a discussion about it, and we sort of said which I think happens to like, I've been asked this question subsequently. You know, we said to her as a couple Well, which of us is Butch and which of us is them? And she said, Well, you're Butch and and you're fem and and and that was, uh I was quite butch at the time, and my father always wanted me not to be, uh, what he always wanted me to be more lady like constant refrain. Um, so I think my heart sank a little bit, but at the same time, I definitely recognised that it was true. And [00:05:30] ever since then, I've been on a journey of becoming far less but phobic and in fact, but proud. Um, and kind of shaking off those that, uh, yoke of self hatred. I suppose that my father put upon me um and yeah, that does that Answer the question. How how How have you gone? About finding out, I guess more about Butch as as an identity. [00:06:00] Um, well, I I mean, I guess, Yeah. Tribute again to to Chris in Sydney, who just simply identifies as Butch and as Butch. And so, um, you know, looking around, I guess looking in the mainstream media, you don't see a lot of role models that only people who come to mind for me straight away are the top twins. I don't know if they are butch identified, and Katie Lang, who I know is Butch identified. Um, but I've had to I've had to find it within [00:06:30] people within my own community, not celebrities to be role models. And, um, I've loved that process. Um, I would say it's only in recent three or four years or so that I've started to really actively cultivate friendships with other butchers and butch solidarity. Um, previously, I guess I just became friends with whoever I became friends with. But yeah, it's become more important. And how do I go about it? Just living in in our community and [00:07:00] yeah, spending more time in the queer community. And I don't know, just seeing how how choice it is to be butch and how what? Yeah. How? Um, be sure it is, um, is because, Yeah, I don't think this we're not the majority. Maybe I don't know. Um uh, has been has been good in terms of yeah, looking, looking to find out more about it. Yeah. [00:07:30] What? What does butch solidarity mean for you being mates with you, Jack? Um, yeah, just I think when When I was quite a bit young. Say two people meet each other who are both butchers, who both have a bit of butch like Internalised butch phobia in them. My experience of this has been that you sort of look at one another and you go. Hi. I hate you. Hi. I hate you too. And then that's your interaction with other butchers. Um, full stop. And, [00:08:00] uh, I see you nodding there, so I'm not alone. Um, and I really have been working to just not I. I don't hate other butchers. And I looked wherever I don't see that that reflected back to me as I will. I will gravitate towards that and strike, strike up a conversation or, you know, seek to socialise. If if that's, um, what's on offer, um and yeah, What does it mean? I it's It's [00:08:30] what does solidarity mean? Just being just being mates with and and not being high? I hate you, I. I think I wouldn't sort of extend it beyond that with words, because if you can use words, you get into too much territory of I don't know, say narrowing it down in some way. Some kind of nice vibe is what I would summarise it as Yeah, and in terms of the butch fem dynamic Um, um, can you tell me how that is in your life? [00:09:00] Yes. And I? I want to start with the disclaimer that I, I really am not seeking to render a strong opinion here because I, um, understand that it antagonises a lot of people When when people are militant about Butch and, um, But my own personal experience is that I, I guess, um am naturally attracted to films. Um, [00:09:30] I wouldn't say I was naturally attracted to other butchers. Um, sexually, that is or erotically, Eros exists between me and and S fairly often. I think, uh, and I feel comfortable about that. It it feels groovy. Um, I think it's been an important thing for me to learn that Butch does not exist because fem exists like fem doesn't like. Fem may be [00:10:00] maybe an opposite in an opposite attract kind of way or something, but it doesn't give rise to Butch. I am. But when I go to the bathroom and clean my teeth or I'm Butch when I go for a walk looking for mushrooms, I'm always butch. I am Butch and, um and I'm in a relationship with someone who is who identifies as them who I think identifies as them when she go to brush her teeth or go to look for mushrooms. Um, so they exist quite independently of one another. [00:10:30] Um, and that's just a bit of magical magics. Um, I don't know why. I don't know why. For me, there's a There's a natural, um, instinctive attraction towards the feminine. Um um, maybe just a yin yang yin yang thing. I don't know. Yeah, Greg, um, what's what's your background? What's your family background and where Where have you come from? [00:11:00] My my father is rural, working class, West Coast, south Island. Um, which is its own, like West Coast is, uh, quite particular. Quite eccentric, I think, um, and and and But was growing up in the early in the eighties and nineties was quite what's the word when you try to rise above your class roots or bitter yourself or something quite ambitious? Is it the word or something? [00:11:30] So anyway, he never really pulled that off. Um, but but I think in consequence, he had a lot of shame. Um, around various things. And so for me to be not a feminine female, um was quite shaming to him. And to be a lesbian also was quite shaming to him. Um, but he can get over it. And my mother? I don't really know my mother very well. She I I did grow up in the same house as her. Um, but that is about all [00:12:00] I can say. She came from a middle class background, and, um, they remain married. They now live in London. They have done since 2002. Um, yeah, I. I mean, I can't say that my mother put a heap of pressure on me to be any one way or another. She didn't give very much guidance at all. And that is OK, It's actually leaves a kind of a vacuum that I've been able to fill myself, which is, in some ways better than I think, what some people have had [00:12:30] from parents. So, yeah, I've been fortunate in being able to make my own way in that way. Yeah, and I was always I was always pinpointed as a as a tomboy, um, and always have been, but And that was hard sometimes in childhood. Um, yeah. Um but but here I am, And, um And then we had some quite Methodist values growing up. We [00:13:00] went to Methodist Church a little bit and that means social social justice focused. And I think I retained some of that while being definitely agnostic, if not atheist. Hm. Yeah. So when you left the West Coast, what sort of age were you then? And where did you go? I I'm sorry. I was born in Dunedin and raised there and left Dunedin when I was 30 to move to Wellington. Um, we spent most of our school holidays in is where my father is from. And [00:13:30] I feel quite a strong West Coast influence because that's the side of the family that I have most to do with. And there's more of them. So yeah, yeah. Um yeah. And then moved to Wellington at 30 just after a kind of a a bit of a life crisis in Dunedin, which was good, because it it again caused a period of renewal and myself in terms of gaining some self confidence and self esteem, including around gender, gender, identity stuff, and yeah, [00:14:00] and you came to Wellington cause you knew people here or no, Dunedin is a very celibate city. And I I had broken up, um, from a from a 10 year relationship, and and really, um It's not only quite a celibate city, it's quite not just but phobic, but quite queer phobic. Quite. What's the word? Quite con conservative in many ways. Um, and this, you know, the students. [00:14:30] I suppose you'd call them more quite liberal and progressive, but they're also 12 years old or whatever. So yeah, um, I moved to Wellington because Wellington is much more venal than Dunedin. Full stop and queer. It's got a bigger queer community. I wanted community at that point. Yeah. So how long have you been here, now? Two years now. I moved here at the very beginning of 2013. Yeah. Yeah. Now, Recently, Um, you got married, and I was very fortunate and honoured to be at that wedding. [00:15:00] And I did notice that you actually had family there, which was nice. Can you talk about, um, that aspect of it having those those folk come along too? Yeah. Yeah. Um, most of the family who were there were aunties and an uncle. And on my father's side, plus my father, um, and they they are the West Coast clan, and I think they their their direction or their in life [00:15:30] is to. I think it's fair to say they will accept you If you are, just be yourself And like, be yourself hard out Do not put on is and graces and don't be affected This with an A, um and, you know, don't try and be something you're not. And I'm quite strenuously trying not to be something I'm not not try, but not trying to be something I'm not. Have I got the double negative right now? That thing. I'm very strenuously trying to be myself now and [00:16:00] lead a really authentic life. And that has brought me closer to my family in recent years. And I, I think that they they would take up arms to defend me Now, Um, a lot of people who were at the wedding said, Oh, it was really good of your family to be there. You know, they're obviously sort of redneck as the implication, but they aren't in practise and I. I had an another, um, my aunt on my mother's side was there who's an academic, And I feel like academics are just as conservative in their own [00:16:30] ways or as or just as redneck in their own ways as um is country people are or can be. You find conservatives in all nooks and crannies. Academics? Yeah. Um, the wedding itself was was pretty special. Um, can you Are you OK about telling us a little bit about the wedding and how you, um, envisaged it and how it went for you on the day and so on? Yeah, [00:17:00] well, Shannon, I have got, I think, quite quite a lot of shared values. And one of our one of our most important values is being being authentic and being expressive. Um, that's two values and also being free. That's a third value. And so we we wanted to to and we love melodrama, So we wanted, like, a really melodramatic ceremony. Um and so we did. We [00:17:30] did that, um, we we we wanted to show all facets of our life together in the in the wedding. And so, for example, on the cake, we we decorated with drawings of ourselves going through a dark forest with holding torches, looking to one another. And at one end of the cake, we we're in a clearing, and it's happy and good. And then and then the other part of the cake. It's It's like, dark and scary. And it's The reason for that is [00:18:00] that relationships are not always, um, not always in clearings and and sunny and good. And sometimes you have dark patches together and rough patches, and you have to you have to pick up the torch and go and look for one another in the forest. Um, and and other times you are in a sunny clearing. So we wanted to be real about that, and that is not always sailing. Um, we wanted to to speak passionately [00:18:30] about our love for one another and our declarations, which we called clitus. Um, we didn't want to assimilate and be like heterosexuals in any kind of traditional heterosexual way. Um, we're not interested in that. We So we spoke about supporting one another, um, to to live our lives fully and supporting one another through any change or growth that we might need to do in the relationship and within the relationship. Um and, [00:19:00] um, yeah, not trying to control one another and buy into the normal, patriarchal structural ways of being together. I myself particularly have to watch that I think in what way? Well, I think it is because I think sometimes in Butch Fem dynamics there's a kind of commute from traditional sexism where the where the male so the masculine, traditionally masculine person is, is [00:19:30] controlling or, um has more of a privilege and abuses that privilege or something like that. And, um, we don't want to commute that to our relationship. Um, yeah, I. I mean, also, we we also brought to our wedding ceremony our sexual dynamic, which is that Sean is a top and I am a bottom which were a dominant, and I am a submissive and and that also is like a departure, I think, from reasonably [00:20:00] traditional traditional sexism. Um, yeah, we didn't want to transplant that onto our relationship and or on to our wedding. So I crawled alongside her for part of the walking up the aisle part and and that was symbolic of that. And after the ceremony, the celebrant said, You may now pick up the queen because I like to pick her up. So she rendered herself, I guess, vulnerable in that way as well. We vulnerability is really important to us, and but [00:20:30] yeah, both of us me as well in terms of I mean, I think that's the thing. Sometimes butchers sometimes get into a kind of bravado or march, not Marxism that thing. Um um, and I don't buy into that. I don't have enough energy. Um, so yeah. So we Yeah, we just We did our own thing very much, and we we wore what we wanted. I want to say on the record that I wore shorts [00:21:00] for my wedding. And I felt really proud about that. Because when I was when I was growing up, I guess it's one of the things that my peers would point out as being wrong was that I? I wore shorts, and that made me like a boy. And that's wrong. Um, but I really find it liberating. I recently started wearing shorts again, and it's so liberating. I love it. Um, well, the wedding is I guess the, um the start of, uh, marriage. So why marriage? [00:21:30] Yes. Why? Marriage. Um, for us, it's It's actually deeply personal. It's not, uh, it wasn't like, shall we get married to acquire the status of a married couple? It's more like I've felt like I'm in the lost and found for a certain portion of my life, and here's a person who who's willing to claim me like an old hoodie and hold me up and say, This is mine And, um, that feels really good for me. Um, just on [00:22:00] a personal level, it's not. Mm. I mean, it's not about ownership and that that's a metaphor of ownership. But it's not about ownership in any other way. We we have an open relationship, and it will stay that way until such a time as we change our minds about that. But it feels good. In fact, the idea of monogamy is very horrific to me, but anyway, um um, like it would be like a cage. But, um, that's just me. And I think it's Shan, too, Um, and for Sean, [00:22:30] I think a similar thing, similarly very deeply personal and very she's had a sense of being an orphan. I think at times as well, although she's got parents, obviously and I've got parents, but just that sense of being alone in the world and then not being alone in the world when when you find someone who you reckon you can spend uh, long, long years with And so we did that. It was healing. It felt good. And we know that we [00:23:00] have our detractors, and some of them are still our friends. That's good in terms of actually getting married. Um, yeah. And, you know, some of our detractors who don't believe in marriage were actually at the wedding, so that felt really good. Like Chris, my mentor in Sydney, came over for it, and she just thoroughly not believe in marriage. Um, I don't think you do either, do you? You're OK with it? Um, yeah. Was it What? Did I answer the question. I can't remember what it was. Yeah. Um, have things felt different since the wedding? [00:23:30] Um, I, I guess there's there is something momentous in someone saying to you, I trust you so much that I wanna spend. You know, You're saying I want to spend the rest of my life with you. I think we're both open to the notion of divorce. Uh, you dial Department of Internal Affairs and you push one for divorce. Um, if this is a divorce situation, press one. If it's an inquiry about getting married, press two. Interestingly, divorce comes first, but [00:24:00] it must be that. Yeah. It must be that divorce is more urgent or something. Um um so you know, there's there's that, but our wish, I think, is to spend the rest of our lives together and And so occasionally, Yeah, it it really strikes me that. Just that fact that I'm I'm I'm that much trusted. And I'm that much loved that, that whatever. Whatever dark forests we go through, we we our intention [00:24:30] is to find one another again. Um, yeah, we've We've only been together a year and a half, and we've already had some some strife earlier on, and we we got through it and we did so in a reasonably radically honest way. And that has been really emboldening to us, I think, as a as a as a coupling. Yeah. Thanks, Greg. I think we'll finish it there. And can I just check? Is there anything you'd like to add? Um, [00:25:00] no, I guess if you're listening and you're butch and you, you're, like, newly identified as Butch. Then then I send you my solidarity. I send you love quite unashamedly. And I wish you all the best. Thanks for listening.

IRN: 848
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/butch_on_butch_sara.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004343
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089637
TITLE: Sara - Butch on Butch
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Sara Fraser
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 1980s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Butch on Butch (exhibition/series); Celtic; Jac Lynch; London; Peter Cuthbert; School's Out (Lower Hutt); School's Out (Wellington); Scotland; Tauranga; The Queer Avengers (Wellington); Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPPA); United Kingdom; University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine; Wellington; Wellington Gay Welfare Group; accomodation; activism; advice; anger; arts; bathrooms; butch; capitalism; clothing; community; diversity; family; feminism; femme; funding; gender identity; gender studies; helpline; heterosexism; homelessness; homophobia; homophobic bullying; housing; human rights; identity; labels; labrys; language; oppression; parents; photography; politics; queer; relationships; research; social; social housing; sporran; study; support; transcript online; transphobia; university; women's studies; worker's rights
DATE: 8 March 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Sara talks about politics, activism and newly completed research looking at heterosexism in tertiary student accommodation.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Sarah, Uh, you you were involved in the butch on Butch Photo Project, and that was fantastic. I was really thrilled when you when you came forward about that. Can you give us an idea of about why you wanted to be involved in the project? Yeah, I don't know. It's kind of it's kind of tricky. I just I guess ultimately what it boiled down to was the fact that it was you that was doing it. And it was someone that I felt I could trust, someone that I knew had an understanding of being butch and what that means. [00:00:30] And so that kind of just really made me feel comfortable and made me made me. I'm volunteer and want to do it. Really? Oh, thanks. It's not actually not actually the answer I was expecting, but I'll take that, Um the the photo that we ended up taking was it was based on your idea, and we went into, um, into some bush around Wellington and, uh, set up quite a stylized photo. Do you Would you like to take us through [00:01:00] that? Because it was really your idea about how you wanted to be seen and and, um and really, you controlled that shoot. So can you just take us through what you're wanting to do with that photo? Um, yeah. Um, my Celtic hereditary is quite important to me. Um, it's a strong part of my how I how I identified so wearing my kilt was quite, um, important to me, I guess. Oh, well, it's my It's my family tartan. Um, yeah. It's [00:01:30] just something I'm really proud to to wear. Really? Yeah. Do you get much chance to wear it? No, Um I reserve it just for special occasions. So this is That's the first time I've worn it, I think since my graduation in 2002 and you're wearing some other kits that looks fairly Celtic too. Tell us about that. Um, I guess you're referring to this foreign. I thought it was a me, but there you go. I'm sure it's been referred to one of those before. Um, [00:02:00] yeah, that's that's, um yeah, just a, um, referred to often as a man's purse. Um, yeah. I don't know. Really What, what more to say about those? Um well, that's that's quite a decision for you anyway. To be making to wear a man's purse as such. So that's part of the amid. You wanting to be tray with this? So Yeah, I think so. Um, yeah. I mean, there's a whole lot of regalia that can that can go with wearing a kilt. [00:02:30] There's proper socks and and, um, uh, a skiing do, which is a knife, Um, and then the upper clothing is quite specific as well. But, um, I don't possess a lot for a start, but I think the the for me is I don't know what it is. It represents something, I guess, But I just think for particularly for that shoot. But just generally, if I when I do wear it, I always make sure that I've got a spir on. Yeah, [00:03:00] cool. And I'm I'm looking at the photo now, and I can see quite a collection. Um, of necklaces. Can you talk to those? Yeah. Um, well, as I've got a, um, my lab bone carving, which was, um, made for me by a friend of mine for my 25th birthday. So I've got I wear three things, and I wear them all the time. I've got the, um a Celtic, um, knot the pendant that my mom bought me for my 40th birthday. So that represents [00:03:30] my Celtic heritage along with the kilt. But obviously the the necklace is there all the time. I've got a, um, the lari, which represents my identity as a lesbian. And then I've got a, um, a Greenstone ads, um, which was a was gifted to me, and that's just represents my, um, New Zealand side of my family and my new being as being someone who came to live in New Zealand from somewhere else. Yeah. Where where did you come from? Tell us a bit about [00:04:00] your background. I'm from the UK. Originally, I was born in London. My mum married an Englishman, and I was born nine months after the honeymoon. Um, I don't know it. It's kind of weird. It's not something I. I mean, it's something that I'm aware of, obviously, but it's not something that I don't think For me Plays plays a big part of who I am. I mean, maybe other people see me [00:04:30] in that sense. I don't really know, but I've got Scottish heritage and I've got born in England, obviously came here when I was 17 with my mum and New Zealand has become my home. My mum and sister went back to the UK for a number of years. My sister still lives there. My mom returned about three years ago, but I've always stayed here in New Zealand's home. It's I love being in New Zealand. I love being here, and I love the life that I've developed for myself as a result of being here. When you first came to New Zealand, [00:05:00] where did you come to live? Uh, Auckland, and I hated it. I'd been here a couple of times before, once after my dad died, and then again when my grandfather was dying. And to me it was a small that was like a late seventies and early eighties with the Times. The times I came, it was just a small little backward out of the way country, and I hated it. So when Mum said we're moving here, it was like, No, I tried everything I could, she said. Well, if you can find a job, you can stay here. But I couldn't find a job, so I had to come with her. [00:05:30] But as time has gone on and the country's changed and I've changed I. I wouldn't have it any other way. I would never go back to live. Yeah, I think New Zealand is the best place to live. And I love being in Wellington particularly. Why did you move to Wellington? Um, to be honest, I moved to Wellington for study. Um, I wanted to be studying at, um, the, uh, heart of politics. What I thought was the heart of politics, Capital city, where seat of government is. And I thought it would be more politically active, and I could [00:06:00] get more engaged with that kind of stuff. Um, I also came here with the original plan of doing the, um, Masters in creative writing at Vic, But that's a really hard place. Hard, hard, um, course to get into. So I wasn't accepted, but I did. I did other things instead, but yeah, that's pretty much what brought me here. But I've been here 10 years now and couldn't live anywhere else. I love it. So So what is it about, uh, Wellington and the political scene here and who you have [00:06:30] connections with here that, um, that kind of keeps you going. Wellington just feels like home. It just feels like the right place to be. And there's always there's always something going on. If you look for it. I mean, like, today, when on the TPP a march? Um, that's my politics is really important to me. It's part of who I am, and, um, so there's always something to engage in if you want to. Or if you don't. If you can't find anything to engage with, it's really quite easy to find other people like minded people and create something yourself. [00:07:00] So being politically connected and being connected to the community are really important things to me. So on the political spectrum, what what's what gets you workers rights. Get me human rights. Get me, um, anything to do with the with people being, um, oppressed and fighting for the underdog. That's what gets me. Yeah, that's what you know, challenging the capitalist corporate norm. [00:07:30] That kind of stuff is is important and and everybody having a right to to live their life that they want to. Yeah, and so are you involved in groups in Wellington that help you do that? Yeah, definitely. Um, I haven't. I haven't been as active with the TPPS stuff as I probably would like to be, but I'm doing things about that. But yeah, um, Wellington gay welfare group is probably the one that springs to mind the most. Um, we've been doing a lot of stuff, [00:08:00] especially over the last sort of two or three years and funding different groups and helping people out with making a change to Wellington community. And that's that's really cool to be able to do that. Um, queer Avengers are on a bit of a hiatus at the moment. Um, I was heavily involved in that. That was a really important organisation at the time. We did a lot of activism around transphobia and bullying in schools. Um, yeah, that kind of stuff is important. And so [00:08:30] yeah, so the the involvement in, um, in collective action has been something that that's driven you for a while. Um, do you see anything in in yourself in terms of how you are as, uh, with a butch identity being expressed at all through this or having a foundation in this at all? That's a difficult one to answer, because, I mean, I identify as Butch, and that's why I was in this, obviously, but [00:09:00] it's just part and parcel of who I am. So I am Butch. I represent as Butch. I am Butch. Therefore, I am kind of thing, and it probably does have a part of of the political action that I take. But I guess I don't do it because of the butcher identity. It just it just it's just there because that's just who I am. Yeah. Would you like to read what you wrote for the narrative that went with your photo? Sure, it's difficult to explain what it means [00:09:30] for me being butch. It is just how I am kind of like trying to explain what it's like to be human. I cannot imagine being anything else. I've been mistaken for the male of the species many times as far back as I can remember. I still am during my teens and twenties. It used to bother me, but as I have gotten older, I have learned to have fun with it. It's fascinating to see how the straight world reacts to me. So yeah, hard to put into words what being butch means to me. I just am the this bit about, um, about the straight world reacting [00:10:00] to you. Can you give some examples of how you've experienced that? Um oh, just I remember. Actually, one time, one of the first visits conscious visits I have coming to New Zealand. I was 12. My father had just died. So Mom brought us back here to be with her family for a while. And I remember being, um, in a department store in Tauranga and had gone to use the bathrooms. And, you know, a lot of us experienced This is the girls room. What are you doing in here? [00:10:30] And being a shy 12 year old who just lost her father? I didn't have a what I would kind of response that I would have today, but just Yeah, a lot of stuff like that. Um, I remember when I was a bit older, I was about 17 or 18. I think I was in a pub with, um there a couple of other friends and, um, some guy coming up to me. And so my friend really likes you. She thinks you're a really cute guy, and I was like, Yeah, no, sorry. So he's scurried off, All embarrassed, [00:11:00] but just Yeah, that kind of stuff. And, you know, the sir or the mate All that kind of typical stuff that a lot of us experience. Um, yeah. As I say, it used to bother me. But now it's just like, you know, get over it. 21st century. For goodness sake, stop trying to put your ideals on. What? Someone should represent what society thinks someone should look like on everybody, because it's rubbish. Do you find yourself saying that to people or just let it roll off? No. These days I challenge it. Um, I remember the first [00:11:30] time I ever challenged it. Actually, I was doing a, um uh, unemployment training scheme thing up in Auckland. Um, uh, I can't remember the name of the college now, anyway. And I was when I was used to ride a motorbike and I had quite a big bike and I pulled into the car park one morning and, um, this other guy was getting off his bike at the same time. Oh, that's a big bike for a girl. I just turn and said, Fuck off the kid. It's not Yeah, just something along those lines. [00:12:00] I was angry because at that point I was an angry wee person, so I just Yeah, I just ripped into him and told him that he needs to grow up. And why can't a woman ride a big bike? What the folks have got to do with anything, You know, I can ride it. I can handle it. So what? It doesn't matter whether I'm a man or a woman, or I don't identify as anything. I can ride the bike. That's all it matters. Yeah. So, yeah, I tend to probably not quite so aggressive these days. Not quite so angry about it, But I don't let people get away with it. If people say something [00:12:30] to me, I will challenge them on it. And maybe you know something like, Well, just because I don't fit what you consider to be the standards, not my problem. Your problem? Do you, um are you around other Butch, um, people much these days? Like actively around people? Um, I guess so, Yeah. I mean, they're just just my friends who are there, and some of them identify as Butch and yeah, some of them don't and [00:13:00] I don't, um, purposely go to way to seek other butch people. They just in the circles that I associate with that they're there as well. Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was quite interesting in the, um, in the project that there are about 20 people involved. And there was such a range of people from those who just saw themselves as labelled as butch but not necessarily identifying that to others who are, um, quite happy really, To to have that as an identity. [00:13:30] Yeah, I guess it's part and parcel of what's come along with the development and the changes in the growth and the more acceptance of queer people and that people now are more comfortable to to to say, Yeah, I identify as Butch or other people see me as Butch, but I don't take that label myself. It's just there is. I don't know if it's just a Wellington thing or just a New Zealand thing or what, but there is. I think there's a lot I mean for some people. I guess some people other people still struggle. [00:14:00] But there is for me. It seems, it seems there's more of an acceptance of people being able to identify how they want to rather than the binary. Because the binary sucks, too, which Butch and FM is. The dynamic is part of that. But, um, it's a different aspect of it. It's not the same as a straight dynamic. It's quite it's quite different. So, yeah, I just think it's there just seems to be a lot more acceptance and a lot more understanding, And people just [00:14:30] can be who they need to be, which is, I think is cool. Do you have the butch fem dynamic in your life? Yes, How does that show itself? Well, um, yeah, clearly, I'm very butch and my girlfriend is very fem, and it's actually to be honest with you. It's quite a new thing for me. I've had girlfriends in the past who have not identified FM, [00:15:00] so it's been a learning curve, to say the least, but it's cool. I really like it, and it's made me more proud of being who I am, too. I made. It's made me having someone who appreciates me for my butch is a really nice thing to experience. There's there's some critique that you hear sometimes around, um around, but and, um uh, and and And that dynamic and around, but perhaps taking up space and those sorts of things. Have [00:15:30] you ever had been involved in those sorts of discussions? Um, I haven't personally, but I know that it it it is challenging, but I think it's that's part of the whole. It's part of the whole spectrum, I suppose. And it's about allowing everybody to identify how they want to and express themselves how they want to. But you've got to, but at the same time making sure everyone has space to do that, because I yeah, I know. I've heard of horror stories from the seventies [00:16:00] with Butch women taking over feminist spaces and and being quite oppressive and I. I like to think that that doesn't happen quite as much, or at least as over as overtly as it might have done. Once I could be naive about that. I like to make sure I don't. I mean, I don't see it for me. I don't see it as my as a part of my butchers. I just think it's fair just for me personally that everybody is given a right to have [00:16:30] a space and to have their say when they need to. Yeah, the groups that, um you say that you say you've been involved in gay welfare? Wellington. Wellington, Wellington Gay Welfare Group. Sorry about that. Um, and and the support that they're giving groups around town. Can you speak a little bit more to that? Um, it started out as a help line back in the early eighties, [00:17:00] but that need seems to have drifted away over the over the last few years. So that side of things has really gotten a lot quiet. A lot more quiet. So now we focus more on, um, funding where we can we, um, still run the, um, Peter Cuthbert Trust, which is specifically for, um, financial assistance for men with HIV. But, um, so we've got a legacy that from for that to do to do with that, but yeah, we try. We can't. We haven't done much in the way of, [00:17:30] um, fundraising at the of late, but we try to, um, distribute any money. So, you know, if people approach us, people from the community can approach us and say, Hey, we need money for this. This is what What? We're gonna do with it. This is how much we need. Is it something that you guys think you could help out with? And most of the time we do. So yeah, we're kind of shifting gear a little bit, becoming more of a, um, funding operation and gonna see how that how that works out and what we can do around that. And I think so. That's probably [00:18:00] gonna be more of our focus. I know that. You've, um you've been involved in helping, say, schools out. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, Um, schools, schools out is a group that, um well, I think our welfare has supported right from the beginning. Um, it's a group, um, for youth by youth. Uh, they're branching out a little bit more on their own these days, so they just rely more on us for the charity status and the funding side [00:18:30] of things. So which is really cool because they've managed to take off and be their own entity, which is amazing. So, yeah, we just help out with that where we can when they need us to, um that we I guess you could probably say go we A group is more of an umbrella organisation now, and they're definitely our probably our biggest group under the umbrella. So, um, it's been really nice to see them develop over the years and become their own thing. And, um, focus on what? You know the needs of youth. [00:19:00] Um, we've also been in a position where we've been able to help out with funding for paid positions. Um, unfortunately, we haven't been able to get ourselves into a position where we can continue to pay someone in an employed role in in that, um, organisation. It would be good if we can get around to that so they can be a continual thing rather than just short term temporary employment. But, yeah, it's been good to be able to do that when we can Do you have Do you have a, um, any thoughts generally around [00:19:30] how the community in Wellington or the communities in Wellington do act to support each other or what they could do more? It's kind of a curly one that because I guess ultimately, we're not really communities as such. We come together when there's a need, which is really good, because that would be even make the situation even worse if we couldn't even do that. But we do. We see whenever something comes up, whether it's a need for funding or whether [00:20:00] it's a need for activism or support or something, we all seem to rally around and come together and help out when the cry is put out. In an ideal world, it would be great that we didn't have to do any of this, where we could just be just be and just exist. And there'd be plenty of funding for anybody that needed it. You know, like in Australia, they've got they get millions of dollars from government for for supporting stuff. I mean, if we had access to that, it would be brilliant. So, yeah, in an ideal world, fantastic. But unfortunately, it's not the situation. [00:20:30] And we do what we can when we need when we need to. And I think that's actually quite nice. Really? Yeah. Now, um, about your studies tell us about a bit about that. Crikey. Um, well, it took longer than it was meant to. Um, I just completed a master's degree in gender and women studies. The last person Victoria University to graduate from the Gender Women Studies Department with a master's degree. So that's kind of cool. And I did an examination of, um, the experiences [00:21:00] of, Well, the official title is, um, an investigation to the the homophobic heteros culture of tertiary accommodation. So, in a nutshell, I was looking at how hetero, sexist student hostels are because I've done, uh, worked in them for about four years and not only experienced homophobia myself, but watched witnessed other people younger people experiencing it. [00:21:30] So I thought, Well, there's lots of, well, not lots. There's some in and some stuff studies done overseas. We needed one here in New Zealand, so I did it. There was a gap in the literature, so that's what I did. It took me four years in the end. Yeah, And what were your findings? Basically that, um Well, yeah, there there there is homophobic and heterosexual experienced in hostels. Generally, the situation is that [00:22:00] it's not intentional. It's just that, um, the people who run the hostels don't take a minute to just sit back and see how they can be more open and more accepting to people who don't identify as straight so, uh, yeah, And so one of the one of the recommendations I've made is that they need to have more diversity training within the hostels so that people you don't I mean, the the the big assumption is everybody that walks through the door is straight. That's that. And so that's how they do everything. Everything [00:22:30] they organise everything they plan is all around the fact that they just assume everybody's straight. So I just wanted to try and point out that actually, it's a bit of a sucky, sucky assumption to make who did, Um, who's been able to access your research or who's been interested in it? Uh, nobody at the moment, because I haven't actually handed in the final version to the library. But once I do that, there'll be, um, a copy online and one in the libraries in the Victoria Library. So anybody were to get hold of it. [00:23:00] Um, I've, um, had one person already ask me when it'll be ready so they can use it for some research that they're producing themselves up in Hamilton, a good friend of mine. So that's cool. I'm hoping to um, publish it in some, um There's a couple of magazines that go around for student hostels. It'd be nice to get some stuff in there, so, yeah, be available to anybody who wants to have a look. Were you talking to residents and, um, to the what are they called? The residential [00:23:30] assistants and others or who? Who was involved in it? No, I didn't talk to any of this. The official staff. I did it through, um, an online questionnaire with the students. Yeah. Yeah. Um, that was challenging in itself. I had to, um, do it twice, because the first time I publish publicised, it didn't get much of a take up, but, um, yeah, I managed to get quite a few people in the end, so it was just asking everybody Anybody [00:24:00] that in the hall who wanted to take part in it. You didn't have to identify it as, um um, queer in any way because I wanted to get a broad response so that, um I could show from their responses that this is the way these people think. And this is why this kind of stuff is challenging if you don't identify as heterosexual. So yeah. And were you looking at, um, universities across the residential halls across New [00:24:30] Zealand. Or was it mostly Wellington or initially, it was gonna be across New Zealand, but due to health reasons, I had to, um, reduce that. So, yeah, we ended up just being Victoria, actually, in the end, Yeah, right. So they'll be interested in in your findings when it comes out. I hope they bloody will be. They should be, but yeah. Yeah, I hope so. I mean, I mean, that's what it's about, I guess, Isn't it? Is having someone who said Who's you know, who's someone who identifies as queer [00:25:00] doing queer research so that people who don't have an understanding of what that means can take a look at it and think, Oh, yeah, we can implement that in our place because that's easy. That's straightforward. There's no reason why we can't do that. Hopefully, that'll happen. What? What sort of work are you involved in? Um, I'm a research assistant with Otago Medical School here in Wellington. And we are, um we look at housing, so we look at safety aspects of housing. [00:25:30] Um, act, uh, who gets to who gets to live in a house. How easy that is to do. Um, we look at one of the big things that we're looking at at the moment is social housing and what the government's doing to basically destroy that? So we're trying to point out why it's important to have social housing and why it's needed and why the state needs to hang on to it. Yeah, but I'm also hoping to do my bit of research later in the year specifically related [00:26:00] to homeless issues for LGBTI people. So that'd be really cool if I can pull that off great. And what's What's your interest there? What sparked that? Um again, that's probably my involvement with, um Wellington Gay Welfare Group. Um, we've had a number of cases over the last sort of 3 to 4 years of, um, young people being thrown out of home because they identify as trans or queer and the parents can't handle it. So they kick them out and they've got nowhere to go and got no one to turn [00:26:30] to. Nothing. So we've helped out where we can. And so, yeah, that's that's pretty much picked my interest. And, um, again, there's a bit of stuff going on overseas. So we need to do it here. I find I found I've learned in the work that I've been doing for the last three years, that New Zealand tends to copy everywhere else 10 years later. So my my argument is, Well, why wait 10 years? We need it now let's do something about it now. So I'm hoping to better [00:27:00] do some research and explain why it's necessary and why it's important to have emergency housing, at the very least. Yeah, um, in in your experience of, um, how the community rallies around, have you seen them rally around those sorts of situations where someone, a young person is homeless and needing help? Yeah, for sure. Um, we've got quite a few contacts within WG where, um, people are willing to offer a sofa, at [00:27:30] the very least, if not a spare room, and take people in for a short term or long term. Yeah, which is really nice. It's good to better know that we've got people out there that we can rely on When, when? When needed. Yeah. What sort of advice would you give to a young person that is, uh, coming through into the queer communities in Wellington. You Nothing like the big questions. Hey, Jack. Um Oh, I [00:28:00] don't know. Be yourself. Get support around you people who will accept you for who you are and don't want to try and change you. There's people out there who will hug you when you need a hug. They exist. And I suppose don't be afraid to ask for that Help when you need it. Um, it can be daunting coming to terms with who you are and to fess that up to somebody else, especially if you don't [00:28:30] know them. That makes that feeling 10 times worse. But we've all been there. We've all done it people. I find that people in Wellington want help when they can. They want to support people. If they can, you just have to ask for it.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089636
TITLE: Rangimoana Taylor profile
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VOICES: Rangimoana Taylor
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Bible; Bill Logan; Christianity; Civil Union Act (2004); Elvis Presley; France; George Henare; Germany; Hawaii; Johnny Givins; Khandallah school; Leviticus; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; Māori; Ngāti Porou; Norman Kirk; Onslow College; Pacific; Pakeha; Rangimoana Taylor; Russell Duncan; Salvation Army; Scotland; Te Reo Māori; Tiriti o Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi; United Kingdom; United States of America; Wellington; William Shakespeare; acting; anger; apology; assimilation; atheism; biculturalism; bullying; children; civil unions; coming out; community; counselling; culture; dance; death; divorce; dyslexia; education; faith; family; film; gay; gay liberation movement; grandparents; growing up; haka; human rights; humour; identity; introversion; language; love; mana; marae; marriage; marriage equality; mourning; māori renaissance; name change; naming; opportunity; performance; poof; profile; racism; rangatira; relationships; school; spirituality; sport; storytelling; suicide; takatāpui; television; theatre; travel; values; whānau; xenophobia
DATE: 8 March 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Rangimoana talks about growing up, biculturalism, activism and storytelling.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I am from which is on the East Coast, and that comes from my mother's side, which is Maori Spanish. And on my father's side, it is Scottish English. Um, I spent times both with non Maori speaking grandparents and with Non-english speaking grandparents. Uh, one of the things that, um, [00:00:30] I was told, um was that when my Maori grandparents saw me, they said, Oh, he's not very dark. And when my grandparents saw me, they said, Oh, he's not very dark. So it works. I suppose both ways I speak Maori. Um, although I would probably speak more English today, Um, I was I [00:01:00] When I came to Wellington, I went to school and then all my primary school there. Later on, I went to Onslow College, which, although looking back, was a very good college. It wasn't the right one for me at the time. Uh, later on, I went back to university. Um and, um, I also studied in the United States and also in the UK as well. [00:01:30] I at the moment I being a pensioner, I suppose, working at te Papa as a guide and as a teacher and I've been there off and on for about 15 years. I spend at least two or three months of the year overseas either teaching in Europe, England or the United States. But as a performer and as a director [00:02:00] of theatre, I have actually worked in France, Spain, Papua New Guinea, um, Romania, um, the United Kingdom, the United States and several other countries as well as a performer. I was one of the first. Well, I was the first storyteller from Australasia to actually be in the, um, national storytelling. [00:02:30] Um uh, uh, federation in the United States and I was named as one of the 10 top storytellers in the world. One of the things on most of the things I like doing is I will only do Maori stories. I will not do other people's stories even though I know them, because I just don't like it when other people say, Oh, well, I've heard this story, so I will [00:03:00] do it. I have just kept on to stories that I know how to do that have taken me around the world and also, um, theatre, things like Shakespeare learning about Shakespeare and that and teaching, uh, theatre studies and television studies and film studies at different universities, um, here and overseas. And later on this year, I will go back to Germany to do some work in your early years, as as a child, the [00:03:30] the language and the the Maori culture. Was it a Was it a big thing for you? It it was, um, it was it. It's always been part of me. One of the things is when my brothers and sisters, when we were all born, our Maori mother wanted to give us all English names because she was frightened about how people pronounced our names and, um and because often [00:04:00] teachers, her name was that often, um, teachers. And that would call her, um or or anything like that. And she was very worried. We had another cousin called and people called her. And so our mother said, I want to give them all English names. It was she got away with that with me because she called me Gary, and my [00:04:30] father didn't want that name, but he sort of gave way to her on that and later on with my brothers and sisters. He just was quite adamant that we were Maori and that we would know English but that our Maori names would be our heritage. I never liked the name Gary. I've I didn't It was never really me. And I was never called that when I was with Maori people, [00:05:00] I was always either called or I was called or one of those. So I understood how my mother felt. Now I understand. Maybe a bit more, but I never appreciated it. I never felt with that name I really belonged anywhere. So when I got to about 28 I decided I would go back to a Maori name and it was, and I talked with my family about it first [00:05:30] and all. My father said to me, It's about time because you have always been Maori. You have always felt like that. And when I said it would be he said, Ah, we thought that might be something like that because you have chosen the male version of your mother's name and that since then, um, there are [00:06:00] still some people who are in their eighties and nineties who still remember me as Gary, and I never correct them on that. That's just how it is. Um, my family um, like I said, they sort of said, Well, it's about time you join the rest of us. So that was OK. Most people, in fact, I would say about at least 95% of the people I know now. Even those who have known me as a child actually sort of say, Yeah, you don't look like a Gary. You always look a lot more like a [00:06:30] schooling. I think for me I was what they call one of those intelligent Children, but could do better. And there were days when the teachers would just say, he's amazing. He will just go for everything and do it. And there were other days when nothing made sense to me. And so I just, you know, And so that put teachers in a in a um well, it put my parents and myself, I suppose, in [00:07:00] a rather precarious position. But what it was is I have dyslexia, and they didn't know about dyslexia then. So there were things I could hear and I would be able to just go there like that. But writing some things, I would get things mixed up. Not all things but some things I would get mixed up. Um, I remember I didn't do well at secondary school. I, um I didn't like it. I often ran away. I and [00:07:30] that was, I suppose, not understanding what was happening within me. I was pretty good at sports. Um, and people have often asked, Do I remember ever coming out? And I don't II I don't know what happened. It just happened. It was and it was not a big thing for me. Um, I was pretty good at taking care of myself, and so nobody ever actually teased me or anything. I don't know what we're [00:08:00] talking about. The sixties. I don't know whether really people knew what that was about, but I think the first time I became aware of the gay thing was I don't even know whether I was aware of it. But in 1960 Elvis Presley went into the army and there was a picture of him on a magazine, and all those guys were looking at it, and we just finished. Um, we just finished rugby, and we were sort of changed, and somebody said, Look at this. This is Elvis, man. That's great. Good. And everyone was going How? It's good. And I said, Yeah, you just want [00:08:30] to kiss him, don't you? And no, no, no, I don't. And nobody thought anything of it. But I couldn't work out why anyone didn't want to. Later on, I realised they all wanted to be him. And I wanted to just be with him. And that was a different thing. So I never I mean, yeah, I suppose at that time you you went with women, you lived with women, and that was all right. [00:09:00] But after a few months, it never worked for me. And my dad, who was actually quite strong in his Christian faith, said that he was getting a bit. It wasn't very fair to women who you'd be very happy with for two or three months, and then you'd leave them. And and he knew the reason why. And he said, It's really breaking people up. This is not fair. And then the bastard, he actually quoted Shakespeare to mean unto thy own self, [00:09:30] be true, not something false to no man or something. You know, that was from Polonius speech. And I was studying at that time, and I thought for somebody who was very strong in his Christian beliefs, very strong in what he thought was right. He had actually come through that and said, You cannot go hurting other people like this because what you're doing is you're damaging yourself. Um, by that time, everyone [00:10:00] knew my brothers and sisters, my my parents, my father being an ambassador. And that was overseas. And so, um, my younger brothers and sisters went to, um they lived overseas, too, But they went to boarding schools here, and so they stayed with me and my my my partners, especially one who has passed on now. His name was Russell Duncan. He was about about 10 Fif. No, he was probably 20 years older than me. And he, [00:10:30] I think, was the person that, in a way saved me. And I say that because I was very angry, Um, for whatever reasons. And I was also, um, was erratic in my behaviour and everything like that. And, um so he sent me to a doctor, which was which was really cool. And the doctor said [00:11:00] to me who was a gay doctor, too. He sort of said, Are you sure you're gay? And I went. Yeah, why? He said you're not just doing it because you think it could be fashionable and I went, Oh, yeah, maybe I am. No. And he asked me very good questions. And there had been one time when I did feel suicidal. I just sort of thought, nothing is making sense to me. Nothing's going away. I never associated [00:11:30] it really with the sexual thing. I associate it with all sorts of other things, and I sort of used to say to people, and I used to say I'd wake up in the morning and say God, get me out of this within 10 days or I'm out of here And it always happened. I was out of it. But then my mate said to me, Russell said to me, You like films, don't you? And I said, Yeah, I do and he said, And you like all those death scenes where people say wise things and they die and it's beautiful and I hadn't thought [00:12:00] of it, but it was actually true, and he said to me, OK, let's give you the reality. You commit suicide, we're not gonna find you for five days. Your body's gonna be bloated. There's gonna be flies around you and it's gonna be and you will have shit yourself and everything. And I thought, No, that's not That's not the way I went. Well, that got rid of that see all together. But I suppose part of the problem was and having a look at it as an adult, as right from a baby. Up till about the [00:12:30] age of almost five, I lived in 10 different homes with 10 different people. 10. And I didn't realise this till I was in my forties. But every time I was being shifted to another place, people would say, We love you very much. But we're going here. And I realised later on that every time somebody said they loved me, it meant they were going to leave me or I was going to be left. And that [00:13:00] made relationships difficult. Now for me. I don't consider it a relationship with anyone until I've been with them for at least three years, and then I might sort of say, Yeah, this could work. And with Russell, I stayed with him for nine years, and we left, I suppose, because I wanted to do other things. Um, but we remained good friends, right up till when he died. We would always see him. When I went, he [00:13:30] went to E back to England to live. We saw him. I always went to see him when I always went to England. When he came home here, we went out together. We had a good time. We were not lovers, but we were there. His name was Russell Duncan. He was a headmaster of Wellington South, and people knew he was gay, and he was damn good looking. The next guy that I was with was a guy called John Givens. And when [00:14:00] I first met him, he had dark, curly hair, green eyes and with the voice that would just make you melt and this and that. So and we lived together for about nearly 10 years. Then now that parting was quite amicable. But we had decided that this was time now, and I didn't really I mean, I had relationships, I suppose, but nothing that I would really connect to because I really started, like, living with [00:14:30] myself. I really loved it. Um, I love not having to wait for people I love going where I wanted to go. And then, uh damn it. One day I met Bill Logan, and I thought there was no way I thought this was gonna work. No way. I thought, Yeah, he's a good man, but he's not the type he's not there. And here we are, 17 years later, still together. What? What I learned with Bill was very important. He taught me when you [00:15:00] other people had tried to teach me, but I never understood it. When I came to be with Bill. I was in my forties, so things were just sort of on a turn for me and things were really going really well. But Bill questions everything. And I thought the way he questioned was, How dare you question my thing about being Maori? You have not insulted me, but you have insulted the you have insulted the WAKA. In fact, you have probably insulted [00:15:30] the whole nation by what you have said. And then I realised what he was doing is actually making sure I believed that I wasn't just parroting. He actually and one of the things that I have loved about him I have become much more solid in my way of thinking in my way of working with people. Um, people get very surprised [00:16:00] about Bill because because I speak Maori and I understand French very well and because I lived in France for a while. I don't wouldn't say I speak it now, but I understand it very well. But people say, Oh, it must be wonderful. You know what? What language do you speak at home? And he says English, What else would we speak? And I have a joke with people, and I'll say to people at work, You know how many of you have this dreadful thing in in your with your partners? And I said, What what [00:16:30] is it? And I said, My partner can only speak one language and I said, and I don't mean besides English, I mean, he just speaks English. Can you imagine waking up with someone every day of your life who can only speak one language and most of my colleagues go? Yes, yes, we do. But I use Maori a lot I don't use so I don't not speaking Maori with Bill, but he hears me a lot speaking [00:17:00] with family, and he also understands um when I if I'm doing something, there are certain words I always use in Maori. It's just not what I do. So he understands those words now. I will always say When I answer the phone, he will always say Hello. It's Bill speaking and that's how it should be that it's not a matter of me saying Everyone's got to say but that that's not the point as long as they don't criticise me for saying it, I don't mind [00:17:30] how they say it, because English is a language that I am very proud to have learned because it's an it's a language that has allowed me to travel through the world. But Maori will always be my emotional. Maori will always be my spiritual belief, which is another thing. I am married to an atheist. Can you imagine anything like that? A Maori who has spiritual beliefs, who has been brought up in Christian ways, who disagrees entirely with the [00:18:00] church but has a belief in certain way, you know, ways of thinking. So we used to have a spa pool, and I'm sitting out there one night and I said to be, Nah, I don't believe you're not spiritual and he says, Well, I'm not I'm an atheist and I sort of said, Well, you say that But you know, you're pretty intelligent, so you must have some spiritual belief. He said, Don't you dare use that on me because that's the argument I use on you and we argue Well, we do argue and we argue a lot, [00:18:30] not each other, but we do. We argue points a lot. Why is this? Why is this? Why is this? But if I was really truthful about the whole thing and I mean this in a very loving way towards Bill, he is one of the most spiritual people I have ever met. So if you can get a spiritual atheist, he's the man and he is much more humane than I am. He is much more willing [00:19:00] to go the extra mile with people. He often puts himself out for other people, whereas I sort of say, under the Treaty of Waitangi, I don't have to, but this is why we get together. We are a bicultural household. He is very in what he thinks and what he does, and that's how he should be. That's how he should be. I am very Maori in the way I think and I've had Maori [00:19:30] people come to me and sort of say No, you're not Maori and asked them to say and why not? They say, Well, look at the house you live in. Look at the way you live Look at the way you travel around the world And I said Yeah, that's what I want to be I know what it's like not to have things I for me, I'm always broke But I have never, ever been poor ever in my life. And what I'm saying with Maori with my own Maori people is if you keep telling yourselves we are poor, [00:20:00] you get yourself into a mindset and nothing goes right for you and it doesn't matter what we do. Nothing goes right if you're like me and you say I'm broke, Broke is always temporary and then some days I have you know, this money to burn type of thing and not that I spend it. I do save on that, but I can. I can get everything I need, not everything I want and that's just that's just how it is mind you, that's actually not true. I can get practically anything [00:20:30] I want. I have to say this. I get most things I want. All right. Um, the other thing which I have found is which I found difficult is that growing up, I was taught as all of us as Maori were taught. We were growing up in a world, and we had to learn pakeha ways and we had to do, which meant we were always on the back foot because no matter how well we did and you know, many of us did very well, we don't look. [00:21:00] And so people would say, Oh, you've done very well for a Maori, haven't you? And we'd say no, we've done very well because we've just done well. But the other thing is what I'm now putting into practise and talking to other people about to Maori, people are saying is stop telling our Children they have to grow up in a world they don't. They have to grow up in a modern world. And there is a difference. If you grow up in a modern world, you can be as Maori as I am. You can live [00:21:30] where you like, But you say I'm in the modern world. This means that our Children cease to be on a back foot. And I do this because I know what it is like to be on the back foot, no matter how well you did. Although I must admit, in my twenties and thirties my brother and I noticed this every time we did well at education and everything else. We were good New Zealanders and every time we did badly well, you're just Maori and you'd sort of [00:22:00] think you cannot have it both ways. We're Maori and that's it. And people will say to you well, how much Maori are you? And I say all of it and they say But you said you're Scottish and you and and you're Spanish. Absolutely. That is part of my heritage and I am as proud of that as anything. But this is the country I live in. Maori are the people that I'm with and people are the others. And this word only New Zealanders can be English cannot [00:22:30] be Americans cannot be no one else can be unless they live on these islands. And so when I'm talking to people and to, um, English people that they say. So we're and I say I stop social climbing. You kno are people who I will walk with on these islands only only on these islands. Um, and hopefully we make the country a better place to live culturally, [00:23:00] spiritually, economically and environmentally. We try and do those things together, and that's really important. Another thing people say to me, Do you think there are too many Chinese people here? Do you think you are too many Indian? No, I don't, Um, they have as much right to be here. If they've come here, they have as much right and their Children are our Children. And that's how I think about that. And, um, you know, people have it. [00:23:30] It often comes up because people want me to actually say it's wrong that they're there, and I don't I really don't believe that if people have made an effort to come to this country and I call it aotearoa New Zealand, if they I was very lucky, as I'm sure you we were born here, couldn't be much better. These people have come from places of great struggle as my ancestors did and your ancestors did. They are coming to give their [00:24:00] Children a better life, as did our ancestors. So they're gonna work hard. They're gonna try and learn things. They're gonna do stuff. They're gonna be really good. And I would say all the ones that I have met, they do well, they feel a bit shy if they if they can't speak English, as we do. If when we go to another country, they're here, they're ours. And it's very difficult sometimes. Um, but when any two cultures [00:24:30] get together, it is difficult. As far as the Treaty of Waitangi goes, it was the most forward thinking document of its time to come out of Europe. What has ever happened afterwards? And there are things gone wrong. I know that. But I am so glad that we have this treaty. It's a treasure. And contrary to most people's belief, it is a British document. It is not Mark. We didn't write it. We didn't say [00:25:00] it. It it It is a little bit different in the Maori, the way it's actually translated. But people get really surprised. I sort of said, Really, you thought we all sat down together and wrote this. No, it's a British document. So with all the ups and downs and everything that you have, it's a great place to be. It's a great place to be so living in a modern world. Now, if [00:25:30] we have a a child, would you give them a a pakeha name or a Maori name? And why I had always said I would give a Maori name and it is slightly easier now because you we have we have and our kids went to the and that and their English is pretty good is very good. Actually, um, they've also found that when a couple of them have tried to do other languages, [00:26:00] it was easier. Nor do I think we have the panacea for the world. We we are working it. I would do that, Um, because the world has changed one of the things. Sometimes when I hear Children talking, I almost cannot tell if they are or Maori because they say things like Waitangi. They say Maori and whereas their parents and their grandparents don't and that's not a fault. That's just [00:26:30] how it was. I don't like it, but I have to accept the fact that's how it was. But I also remember my grandparent well, no, my mother and that generation. When they spoke Maori, they talked about the Iwi Maori like the Maori people. But when they spoke English, they talked about the Maori and it was like two different things. Whereas most people now we talk about Maori and so it's become a national [00:27:00] thing. It also, um I hear Children really telling their parents and grandparents off for them, and I always go and thank them. And I say, This is wonderful, But your mum and dad, it was a different time. And if you, instead of telling them off, just be gentle with them. Because if you tell them off, it means that we become the enemy because it's, you know, we're [00:27:30] forcing something on them and I don't want to do that. I know English was forced on my mother and those people, and there was a big thing about being scared of schools because of that. And one of the things I feel really ashamed of is my Although my father was a diplomat and an ambassador, my bro, my mother was the really one who was who was very, very intelligent, but never had the opportunities to go on. And my father also said, Know your mother if she had had the same opportunities, I don't [00:28:00] know whether she'd look at me and she said, Oh, I think I would I think I would And it's the same, I suppose, with Bill and I, um he's quite well known within the community with what he does. But one of the things he said to me I was the first person that he's been married to, who more people knew than knew him. And he he said to me once he said, It's really strange and I'm really proud that they do But somehow I he [00:28:30] said. But I know people, I know people And I said, Of course you do. It's just that when if you do film and then you do television and that people think they know you and this man builds friendships up, Yeah, I do, too, But I mean, I'm you know, I'm not. I'm you know, not that far. But he builds friendships wherever he goes. And that, for me, is a That is me. You know this word? Um [00:29:00] people say it's Chief um, leader, but the word is to weave and the is a word for people. So it's a weaver of people, and that's why when I call him a, he's not my boss. But he's a good weaver of people. He's much better at that than I am. I am very good at socially doing things and, um, being with people out there, But basically if I meet you, I want to be with you right now, Um, [00:29:30] because I might never meet you again and things like that. And, um, if I don't meet you again, we've had a good conversation. So that's great bill friendships 30 40 years and there and it's a good I. I remember saying to him once you cannot make old friends overnight and he said, What does that mean? And I said, Listen carefully, I said too many gay people for me. [00:30:00] I don't know whether it's so true now because it's a different world. But when I was young, we were all making friends overnight, we'd slept with you one night and oh, we're going to be forever. It's going to be just great and this and that and then, you know, a month later. Well, I didn't work. Um, but people ask me now. Well, you know, you and Bill have been together for 17 years, nearly 18 and sort of said, Well, you know, do you think this will be it? And I jokingly sort of said, Yeah, well, I can't be bothered going through all that again. And Bill said, Oh, thanks [00:30:30] very much. And I said no. You know, I'm joking. Anyway, I I'm really interested in how we, um, identify ourselves and something you said right at the start of this chat in terms of, um, you're at school. And what happens when the teacher can't even say your name? You know, what does that do to you internally? So I'm not only thinking about the the your own name, but the the other words that you use for by yourself, like gay or stuff like that. I mean [00:31:00] I mean, what does it do when? When? When the society can't even say your name correctly. Maori people change their names. They did. There was a whole generation that changed their names. Um, they wanted to have names like, um Jack or, um Maxine or something like that. And when I do say, Maxine, it was a woman I'm talking about, not a not a gay queen. And so but And that was that whole thing, because films you went to see, [00:31:30] Um, And when television came out, these were the names. These were the people and what that actually did. It keeps telling us we are wrong. And sometimes the only time when Maori people felt that they were OK was when we were back with other Maori people. Now I get that occasionally I sort of thought, I've really I I've just got to go back, but I don't have a fantasy about it. I go back, I may [00:32:00] spend two or three weeks with people, but I am in the city now. This is my home. This is where I live. This is where I've loved changing names. My brothers and sisters have all had the chance to change theirs, and they won't. They won't, um, they have given. My brother gave all his Children Maori names, and they were in a time where teachers could say they [00:32:30] could say those things and and so they didn't quite understand and they then they shouldn't have to. As they're getting older, they're understanding what some of the difficulties that their grandparents and great grandparents had. Um but I'll tell you, the one who's the ones who are really holding the door open for us, it's not. The Maori speakers are certainly there and the Maori teachers, but it's often parents [00:33:00] who never had the opportunity. What they are saying is our Children are going to have the opportunity, and what I do say to them is, give them the opportunity, don't force it anywhere. I remember my brother saying as well, my kids, they're all going to become teachers and they're gonna do this and they're gonna do that. And I said, No, there was no there was no proviso on this. What we did was we give them this, how [00:33:30] they use it. It's up to them. It's it's It's a gift. There are. There are no caveats to it. You just give it out. The one that has become a teacher was the one that had no interest at school whatsoever, who, suddenly, at the age of 15, went for everything, did a university degree in Maori. Um, you know, then taught in Maori and teaches both in Maori and in English. And that was and she and she was the one [00:34:00] she was. She just came from left field. We didn't know when it happened because she was much more interested in makeup and socialised. She was an A for those but C minus for school. And then suddenly there was this huge turnaround. Um, do each Yeah, sometimes it depends where the child is. I suppose I've got a nephew called and nobody would dare say anything to him. Now he's a man, you know. He's a good looking guy too. [00:34:30] But he came really home one day. He sort of said, Everyone's calling me Muddy and And a teacher giggled at it, not meaning to, but just did, and that it damaged him for A for a long time. He didn't want to go to school, he didn't want to do anything. And then we talked with him. We talked and told him what the was and what a good tree it was. And in Samoa, it was a, you know, high Chief and building those [00:35:00] things for him so he could have arguments without getting physical with people and saying is Look, this is what I'm And then we said to him, Ask the Children what their names mean. They won't know. But what he did was he asked them and we found out what their names meant and he gave a talk at school. Your name means this. Your name means that And a guy called David. I think he was one of those really horrible ones. And it said, David, your name [00:35:30] means Beloved and David went It does not. Most beloved, Most cherished. All those numbers are what I better have a Maori name. So but Mike Mike, there's a very good actor. His name is George. He not here. His name was That's how we knew him as a child. When he went to school school. They called him he and he [00:36:00] and he said, No, just call me George. But when he comes home and he knows where he is, then But you actually do and understand that and I really do understand that, um I don't know. I had my parents called me a Maori name. Um, although my father really wanted to it was my mother who actually registered me, but I don't know what that would have done for me at school. I can only I can only surmise, [00:36:30] Um, but I feel much more comfortable in the name. Well, I've had it most of my life now anyway. Would I change it back? No, no. And I'm really surprised how how people get really defensive of me once they know my name. And if anyone else pronounces it wrong, you know the pronunciation is wrong. It's it's how people say that is not his name. His name is this. That is not his [00:37:00] name. It's not Rangi. It's not this. It's It's very easy to say It's four syllables, and that's another thing is English. Speakers often take it as five syllables, and therefore it's too long, they say. They say, Well, it's more. Ah, and I say No, it's And once they get that, it's very easy. So we try and make things as [00:37:30] easy as possible with people as when they're learning. And I know some people they get nervous of some speakers because the speakers will speak too fast, or, um, they'll say That's not how you say it and hopefully I never say that. What I do say, if somebody asks me a question and they're speaking in Maori or if they say something and it's not quite right, I never correct it. All I say is, [00:38:00] wow, you know, you know, it's you know, it's sweet when we say it's really great listening to you. Here is another way of saying that, and this way we have kept their mana and prestige. We are acknowledging that they're learning and we are helping them just say, Well, maybe this way if you do that and it's what I, um asked teachers to do [00:38:30] when we're teaching adults who are learning, just go with it, they're trying, and some of the ones who have the most difficult are our Maori students, because there is this park Students are very good, but they don't have an emotional bond with it. They don't with the language, So it's not a matter of oh, I should have learned this, You know, I should know this. I shouldn't be having to learn this. And many people say, Oh, well, the best way to do [00:39:00] it is to go back home, you know, go back to the that no longer works. The majority of the people back home do not speak Maori. I will. There are certainly a lot to do, but they're not teachers of language. So they're going to say is I don't understand what you're saying If you if you don't say it right so they'll just speak in English it's easier here. You get lots of criticism. Oh, they've learned that from university [00:39:30] or they've learned that from here. They've learned that from there and I sort of say I don't care. The fact is they're learning it. They were not fortunate enough to have some of your advantages, but they're as Maori as you are if people are doing things for the community and it doesn't have to be Maori community, if people are doing community things like in the gay community, if they're doing things with other people, if they're helping immigrants, if [00:40:00] they're doing that and they are Maori, they are just as Maori. Just because they don't speak the language, we'll always have enough of those they do, and sometimes I think too many and people say, Oh, the it must be so wonderful, you know, culture, you know that you must feel it, and I keep saying my culture is no better than anyone else's. It's just the culture that that feeds me. It's certainly no better than people. It's certainly no better than Chinese or anyone else. It's no worse, but it's no better. [00:40:30] But it fulfils my needs, and that's one. So for words like Gay Queer Rainbow Takata, How how would you identify if I was really honest gay? Um and I do say that I know people want me to say in A in a Maori situation, I will, but is not a word. I'd heard it all all my life, but [00:41:00] it didn't mean quite what it means today what it may have. It meant that two males who were the best friends throughout life they will often be married. But they did things together. You often said the wives would be jealous because these two guys would do things. They would die for one another in battle and things like that. I think a lot of people, um, don't understand. The Jonathan and David story from the Bible is identical. It doesn't [00:41:30] it. They may have had a relationship physical. In fact, I'd be very surprised if most of these people didn't have some relationship at some stage, but it wouldn't be the primary relationship. It would be a very special relationship, and only with that person that it wasn't as though that if if this person dies, they'd probably go to another person. They would just stay where they were and that. But in battle, who would be your best one? The one who would hold you close? [00:42:00] The one who you would fight together, the one who you would give your liver to it? What we sort of say that we say, Um, I would give you my liver because a liver has enough goodness in it. If you gave it to someone, they could survive. And that's how you show your love in Maori. It's not the heart, it's the liver. It's the liver because it's about what, the sustenance. Of course I sing the songs, you know, you [00:42:30] know all those and it means it. But gay was the word that we came out with. Gay was the word that I really protected. Um, gay was the word that I had my nose broken twice for gay was the word that I'd been knocked out for and I'd got into fights for I didn't start them, and sometimes I didn't finish them. But a couple of times I did a couple of times I did. And once that [00:43:00] happens, I don't want to be in fights. I wanna be able to argue logically with people. What is it now? I know with the fundamentalist Christians, they say it is a blight. You know, it's God's, you know that God doesn't like this. And yes, there are things in Leviticus and there are things. But you're looking at a people who I say, Well, why is this in there? It must have been that there were gay people there and they [00:43:30] said, We're a small nation. We need more kids, get off, get marry. And that makes sense. You say is no, we need more men. We cannot have. We we need more soldiers. You dying. You too is good for there. But we need other generations, and it has to do with war and property. So one of the things I looked at that and I said, Yeah, it doesn't mean that for me because it was, um, for me being gay [00:44:00] was about me. It was about no one else. I will not out people I want, um They have to come at their own time. And I do feel sorry for them. Oh, What am I going to say about the Christians? Yep. Yep, yep. Let me get back to it. You tell me God's infallible. If you believe that, then we are made in the same image. If that's what you believe, then this is it. Yeah. If you're telling me that God's infallible but these [00:44:30] things, then he's making 50,000 mistakes a day, and therefore you can't have it both ways. You either say God is is infallible. We are made all this way. Or you have to say that God is infallible. He's fallible, infallible, and therefore has made 50,000 mistakes a day. And if you go that through the so called and I'm going on the Christian thing about the being 5000 years, he could [00:45:00] have rectified that mistake by now. Surely, if that was a mistake, that's my argument with it. Can I Can I tell you a joke? I went to see um um, a minister priest, a minister, and I, um I want to find out about this gay thing, and he says to me, Look here. What I want you to do is I want you to say, Satan, get thee behind me And I went, [00:45:30] Oh, I think to the side behind me. We might never get home And she went, Get out. And it's those things. It's also the humour that you can have to have the ability to laugh at ourselves. I don't always, um I say to people, Sometimes I say, Be careful. I can say jokes about Maori and I do Maybe you need to just watch it. [00:46:00] Maybe if I'm saying jokes about I may need to watch it, I may need to see it. So I get around by saying that I just don't define what what they are. What what race they are. But with the gay thing. Yeah, I. I can take a joke as well as anyone, I think. But you got to go there yourself. And I have one wonderful, really good straight friend of mine. Richard, we were doing something and [00:46:30] these two young Polynesian guys came up. I wasn't there at the time. I just come through afterwards and they were looking at something and they kept saying us, Oh, man, that is so gay That is so gay And Richard said, What do you mean? And they said, Oh, it's just gay, man, you know, it's gay, it's really gay And he said, Well, I'm gay, What does that mean? What What does that mean? And they said, Oh, no, man, that's cool. That's really cool. You're gay, You know that? That's cool. Nothing about that, he said. Then why are you saying that's if I said That's Samon or that's Maori. What would you say? [00:47:00] And they were? You can't say that, man and he said, Yeah, well, you can't say this and I'd come in just on this and I said, What are you doing? And he said, The little fuckers, they can't say that. You can't say that and I said, But now they're going to tell everyone you're going, and he said I couldn't give us stuff and I said, Yeah, but your wife and Children might and he said, Well, if they don't know, I'm not now, they never will. So you you can have good friends I don't choose friends because they are Maori. I don't [00:47:30] choose friends because they are gay. I choose friends because they're good people and I like it. Really. If they are our Maori, that's even. That's a bonus. But no, Um all my family, we are very Maori. Not one of us married a Maori, not one of us. And I sort of said, um I don't know if you realise this about Oh, About eight years ago, a guy from he [00:48:00] married a minor member of the British royal family and everyone was saying how great he was from and said, How dare you bring our culture down by marrying into that family? Oh, and those are the things I love about us, you know, because everyone was saying to me, Well, he's married into the royal family and that No, we're ashamed of him. OK, so your your [00:48:30] nose breaks. Was it was that during homosexual law reform, or was it before it was before? Because I was still going? I am going to, you know, I'm going to I'm not going to hide it. I don't France it, But if somebody would say something and I would say, Yeah, that's me. They would never take me on one on one. It was usually two or three at a time, would go and therefore you're not. And I took it right. If this is what you gotta do, I'm still not gonna hide. And [00:49:00] I said, um, I got brothers and I know where you live, because my family, they would not let anyone touch me. They wouldn't, my sisters and that would just come up and just go. And every now and again, I have to say, No, no, no. We need to calm it down. And we need to calm it down because, as kids, I don't know. I'm thinking all families do this. We always just all bmp in together, you know, with the kids. So I took my little sisters [00:49:30] to bed and my brother and I, But finally I had to stop when we were in a when I was in my thirties and they were in their twenties and teens and I'd be with a mate, you know, And all my family would be piling into bed and, you know, my mate would be naked or something. He said, Oh, this is lovely. This is great. Is it a Maori thing you're doing so life is good, it's not perfect. But I consider myself [00:50:00] most times the most blessed person in the world and I know that's arrogant because other people say it. But I really do feel that. And I feel one of the luckiest people because I have actually been born Maori and again I want other people to think that about themselves because if you don't feel that about yourself, then other cultures become a threat. If you are very confident in your own culture and I'm very confident in [00:50:30] the English speaking world and very confident within Maori and the Maori speaking world and I have a real interest in other cultures, there's no threat to me personally, there's no threat to any of our Children, any of our grandchildren either. And we say to them embrace the people because it's not in Maori. What is the most important thing? It's not being a Maori, being a Maori, being a Maori, it is the people, it is people, it is people and [00:51:00] there's no colour in that and we are the only people in the world who in 18 40 got the rights of British subjects. All right, it was taken away, but it we got it. No other coloured race was ever offered that no other coloured race actually held the British down so mercilessly like we did. And what? People have to remember that we are the only coloured people that Queen Elizabeth apologised [00:51:30] to what was happened to us and what happened to us. There were bad things, but nothing compared to what has happened in other countries. Nothing. But it was Maori people who got the apology. It was Maori people. They said if the apology happens, we may be able to restart processes later on. Jenny Shipley actually did an apology, I think, to the Chinese people for what had happened to them. Which means if you if you recognise the faults, [00:52:00] you actually can start a healing process. If you don't, what happens will fester as nearly happened in the 19 seventies because many of us as Maori said we have lost so much. Now we'll take anyone on. We will take anyone on and I truly believe, had there not been a recapitulation of government and that they saw what was happening with those huge protests of Maori coming [00:52:30] in that there may have been a civil war. Now again, that's only hearsay. But if I remember what happened in the seventies Maori marching Maori tent embassies, Maori, the Maori warriors, people coming in and then later on hearing someone do a haka in English so it couldn't be smoothed over by a translation, actually said, I will make you understand the [00:53:00] haka. I will make you understand what I think. There was a haka, and in one of the words in Maori it goes and it is translated as, Oh noble lords, we have our disagreements. Is you bloody bastards, you buggers! And it's a transliteration of bloody bugger and once said, We're not translating it. We're going to do it in English. You cannot [00:53:30] cover it because many of the elders and they were trying to sort of smooth it. They understood how we felt, but they didn't know how to put it to the wider community. Television radio have actually altered that, But there is still an underlying prejudice in the country. And that is I've recently been looking at billboards up around the place and the only people [00:54:00] that says that are successful in this country are white people. It I looked at billboards, you know, have a successful career, and it's white. People be a successful business people, white people. Be very good at this. Have a job at this. You could do this even things for, like, stewards and stewardesses. Um, all those other things, the faces, no stewardesses. They've actually changed that a little bit. But on all the major things, it's always the white faces are showing. [00:54:30] And without with that, it's subliminal because what, actually you're telling Maori people is or other people on the land? Yeah, this is a white man's place. Learn your place and it's not happening. It's not gonna happen. It's, um the Samoans and Maori are more coming together now more, much more than they did before. Um, we [00:55:00] will work once we get over the fear. Once we've any other people get, um, get rid of the xenophobia them. We will start working because the coloured population will be more than 50% of us within the next 30 years. Already it's up to nearly 40 35 35 and it will keep growing but English is going to be the language. It's gonna be a language that we speak English is gonna be it. [00:55:30] I think Maori will carry on. It will change and as it should and what we are saying to Chinese parents and to Samoan parents. And that is, if it's not a matter of teaching your Children Samoan or Chinese, it's just speaking to them. If you do not do it within two generations, it will go. And that's how I think so. Looking back at the seventies, do you think [00:56:00] there are parallels between, say, the the the Maori Renaissance and say the gay liberation that was happening? I mean, I, um in some ways I was lucky because I to me the Maori Renaissance was more important. It was much more important for me and it was already on the way by the time the gay Renaissance came through and so therefore everyone knew me as Maori and that was great. [00:56:30] But now I could allow the other thing to happen to in the gay Renaissance and going through the marches and going through those things and standing on the front and saying, No, this is me and people said stupid things like, But you were so good at sport and I went, Yeah, I didn't particularly like it, but you had to do it. There wasn't much choice. Oh, yeah, but you know, and somebody said, But you ride horses, you you drive, you know, [00:57:00] you used to drive, you know, cattle. And I sort of said, Yeah, it was a job. I didn't sort of think, Oh, I must show them that I'm a gay person, that I can ride a horse and that I can, you know, do cattle shear sheep and that I said there wasn't much choice. You have to do it. And they say it. Well, I would have never thought of you. And I sort of thought, Yeah, well, I don't think we ever thought about it at all, to be quite honest. And that's what I mean is don't I don't radically kill [00:57:30] those people. We have still remained friends, and most of my straight friends at no, I've had all of them. Now they get really jealous. If I don't hug them. And these are the guys they say they'll say to me, Don't be a puff. Give me a hug and you're thinking right. But it's a real good thing that your mate can say to you, Give me a hug, you know? And sometimes they'll say, Oh, bloody hell, give us a hug. A proper hug. Not one of those ones. Because my mates don't hug like this [00:58:00] now. They used to. They just boom, it's like that. And I also think now you see it in sport a lot more. You see, um, you know, you see sports people doing it after a game. You see men doing it after a game. Um, and this has made a difference, too. I know. So you've mentioned, uh, storytelling bill earlier in the interview, And you've also mentioned, uh, things about, um, kind of activism, like going on marches. Do you find [00:58:30] that your storytelling is also a form of activism? Yes, very much so. Very much so. Um, for one thing, it, um I tell stories in a way that you have to listen, and I don't, and I don't do them loud. But what I do is I do a story, and I use a lot of dance movements, action, slow motion, all that [00:59:00] and Then I'd retell the story again with no words, just actions. And the audience gives it back. Yeah, One of the things I learned when I when I was in Hawaii is that I had, like, 200 say, between five and seven year olds come in. And I asked that only about seven teachers stay in the room in the in the theatre, [00:59:30] but everyone else to go out all the adults to go out. And so I told the Children the story and we went over it. We went over it and we said, Now when I'm going to tell it this time, I'm going to tell it slowly and you can only tell it as I'm doing the actions and you tell your mom and dad what they are, but we're going to do something. When I do this, I'm going to do this part of the story. And when your mom and dad ask you, [01:00:00] you're going to say, I can't tell you that it's a secret, and if you're very good, I'll tell you later. And so we did this thing. So I don't know if you had it, but my parents used to either spell out words and things like that, so I couldn't understand it. And I know what are they saying? And these Children have this And so what they did was by having that action. They all just went and I carried on a bit. Then we went like this, and that meant they could say again. And the parents said, But what was that bit? [01:00:30] And they said, We can't tell you if you're good, we'll tell you Well, most of the kids gave up, you know, at the end of the day, they told their mum and dad, which was great. But I was in Hawaii for about two weeks and I got this call from a parent and sort of said, My child has been telling me that I'm still not. My behaviour has not been good enough, and they still haven't told me that part of the story. So I got the chart on the phone and I said, Do [01:01:00] you know, I think if I give you the magic, can you actually tell them now? I said, I said, Do I have to have the magic for it? And I said, Yeah, because you've kept it there so long that it won't mightn't come out. And they went, Oh, so just on the phone, I went. So can you feel the magic? Yeah, I can. And then I said, Well, the part of that story was like this and that and it [01:01:30] I like to give Children those things sometimes, but also what it does it actually, if families come and I don't just do stories for Children stories I do for families because that was the idea of storytelling is that parents and Children, when I'm doing the second one that will work together and they will try and work it out. And And I say to the parents, Whatever the child says is right, [01:02:00] if that's how they saw it, that's how it is. It's right. Please do not say that's wrong, you know, and because sometimes Children, even though you do it, something else goes on in the head and that's fine. And it's just that if you do it and I'd say to parents say that's great And do you know the way I saw? I saw this happening in it, so the child is not wrong, but we can go on because I'm only [01:02:30] there for an hour. If a child is thought to be wrong, then I'm to blame because I haven't done it right now. And that's what we're trying to get the parents to know. You've got to be there with them and you can usually tell what the parenting skills are like because you can see there are some that you know, get really frustrated that their child hasn't understood this or has got it wrong. And this and that and I keep going, you know, and we congratulate every child. [01:03:00] And if there are some parents that haven't done well, I will not congratulate any parents. But if I can see everyone has done well, then I go and tell them You are so lucky to have parents like this and you are lucky to have this child. You are very lucky. And so we do that, and it's a way I try and do things as a Maori, but also as a human being. And when I teach things, I teach them [01:03:30] because it's no good me taking them to the grave, no good at all. It's stupid. If there is someone who I believe is worthy of lying something. I certainly will tell them. Um, a lot of the things I've handed down to the next two generations things that I was taught. Certainly not everything, but we haven't a way is our cup is always full, and you've got to give out the knowledge. Otherwise, you're just gonna go mad. [01:04:00] And if the but as you keep giving out more, comes in and so you've got to keep giving out, keep giving out. You can never give it all out because although you're trying, it just keeps filling up. So I'm hoping on the last day I can say is take the whole bloody cup. So I mean, where does that generosity of spirit come from? It comes from both. I didn't [01:04:30] I didn't really know my parents I. I was never close to them. Like my brothers and sisters were because they lived only with them. I did not. But my mother didn't always understand wit, but she understood humour. My my father understood wit very well, and there lies the nub of an argument because my mother didn't always get what the witticism was. But [01:05:00] the wit and I think came from my father's mother, who had this wicked sense of humour and the funny thing about that. She was a Salvation Army officer and my father went there, too, Which is why I'm saying when he said the things about you have to be true. If it's gay, you have to go there. We can't do it And he said, If I have a problem with it, I need to work it out. I'm wondering what are some of the other, um, values [01:05:30] that you have? So we've you know, we've talked about that generosity. I mean, what what? What are the other things? That kind of, uh, core to you. I'm an introvert. And by that I mean, when I'm out there with people, I am totally out there. But once I get home, I will not talk to people. I mean, I will always be polite, but I will not talk to people. Um, and that is sometimes I've had people coming to me all [01:06:00] day. I've been teaching all day. I've been doing and I teach at all different levels. And so when I come home, I don't want to do anything else. Now Bill is a counsellor. So he listens all day and he still hasn't used up hardly any of his words. So he needs to talk. He needs to be there with people. And so he'll have guests here. When they first started coming, I did it. Everyone thought I didn't like them. And then I realised I had to tell [01:06:30] them why. And he's only ever got angry with me. Once about that is that we had guests, and after an hour I thought, Oh, I've had enough, I'm going to bed And I went to bed and he said, What are you doing? And I said, I've had enough II. I know them. I've seen them. I've been polite and he said, I don't know them. They're your family. This is the first time I've met them, Get out of bed and get here. That's the only time. So I trotted out. [01:07:00] You know, this and that and sort of said, How long are you people staying? We said, What? What? There are other things. Um, Bill is a lot freer in the home, So if people come in, he says, Oh, just help yourself, go to the fridge and I don't I sort of ask people, Can I get you this? Can I get you that? It's a way of me. It's both. What? No, neither way is wrong. But I don't like people coming in and just sort of saying, Oh, I'll have this and [01:07:30] have this bill doesn't care. You know, Bill actually says it, and I would sort of go, No. But what I have done is I will maybe serve the first cup of tea in the drink and then say from now and help yourself. So I have compromised in that way. Um, Bill has not compromised at all. Bless his little monoculture head. But getting on that I also people [01:08:00] take people say, Oh, you're not an introvert because they think because they see me with people. But I get my strength from when I'm by myself so I can actually do that, Bill, if you if you saw Bill and I together when we're out, it would be Bill who you would talk would be the introvert because he will talk to one or two people. But he will have real conversations with them. I might, or I mightn't, depending on how I feel depending on where I've been. [01:08:30] Um And so usually, um, if the people I've been talking, I might say, come home. But if you don't, I'm not worried about it. But I can guarantee everyone that Bill has spoken to be will be visiting within the next two days. Or on that night, they will be coming. And the house is full of people. I said, why did we bother to go out? Why didn't we just invite people here? So there are those things, Bill. I [01:09:00] go to bed very early at night. Um, and Bill comes to bed very, very late, like two o'clock in the morning. That's where he comes to bed. Um, that works for us. It didn't used to. I used to get up, and then Bill used to worry if I you know if I was out late or something like that because he knew that I'm a homeboy. And, um, but we keep in communication, but we don't. We really don't live in each other's pockets. And that is bills in Australia at the moment. And I don't miss [01:09:30] him one little bit, but I'm so glad when he's back. I am so glad when he's back. I am the same. I'm going away. I. I go away for at least two or three months a year, either usually back to Europe or America to teach and that and we don't miss each other. But by crikey when we get back together, it's just big, really big holes and big hugs. And that, too, that we are a family and my family. My, my Well, [01:10:00] my family, all of them. Billa's family, Billa's family and what's even better? His former wife is also family. And because if ever I get sick, if Bill was away, she is the one I call. She comes here because my brothers and sisters live away. You know, they live in and that, but she just lives around the road, so she comes there. If we have a family gathering, they sort of say, Well, you will bring the day, won't you? And I sort of said, Yeah, one [01:10:30] day I didn't They said, Did you invite a deal or did you just leave her? And I said, No, I she was doing something else, Bill and I says, Yes, she was doing something else. I do have a temper, much as I would like to bring with this wonderful, very dust on you. I do have a and it's and I have a voice which is very, very loud. And it's and it's the only time Bill's got scared of me is once because he was so cool on this argument [01:11:00] and there was no way I and the thing is I knew he was right. But I got to that stage that I am not a You're right. I'm not admitting you're right. And I knew he was right. I'd worked it out. Oh, he's right. But I'm not telling him that because he looks so so. I just boom roar at him and I just saw him and I was so sorry. Once I'd done it, I was really and I've never done it again. Never, ever done it again because he wasn't used to that. And I sort [01:11:30] of said to him, Man, you're lucky because I usually used to hit people for that for what you said. So I thought I was being really cool, just using the voice. But I also realise that it can be very frightening when when you've got a Maori coming at you who suddenly looks much bigger than you, who's coming with all the fighting skills and that, and and using that I do keep on the whole. It takes a lot for me to lose my temper. [01:12:00] And it's not that I, um, but I've got other ways of doing things now, and I do do them and Bill knows. But I also have a thing we both have a, um, we have an agreement that if one of us feels that something's getting out of hand, you say it. And unfortunately I'm the one who gets told a lot of getting out of hand. And I thought, Oh, it's just winning And now you're just using it because you want to win the argument you want to be. It's getting out [01:12:30] of hand now, so I've got to go outside, and I feel like, Oh, I take the dog out. We go for a walk. But it was like I don't know. I don't know if you had this, but I used to get this, get outside, come back when you're ready. And I was like, Well, how do I know when I'm ready? I'm ready now, but, you know, I don't know when I'm ready, but it does work. And I have that thing about being able to go out, out, work it out. But even when I do, it takes a lot for me to, So I've never said you are right. I've said, [01:13:00] Yeah, you could be right on that. I just need to think a little bit more through it And he knows he's won the arguments and then he always says It's not about winning, it's not about winning. And I said, Oh, bullshit, it is so because he sits there smiling away, he does. Now, you've mentioned a couple of times, uh, the word marriage and I would like to know from you your thoughts on things like, um, same sex marriage. And, [01:13:30] um, I mean, when that whole debate was happening, um, around kind of the Marriage Amendment act, there was all this talk about, um, kind of Is this just a You know, So So So what are your thoughts on things like marriage and assimilation? Well, I thought that, too I was saying, Is that and I'd said to Bill because Bill does want to get married, and I sort of said, Well, we're gonna really work this through. I didn't want it actually, necessarily for me, but I wanted [01:14:00] other people to have the choice if they wanted it. That was as simple as that. And some people, some straight people, said to me, Well, what's the difference? If the law goes through, you know, what difference will it make? And I said, quite simply, I can't object to straight people getting married and I went What? And I said, I cannot object to you getting married I said, That's what it's like. You can get married. I can't object the same as [01:14:30] if our people want to get married. You can't object and the people who actually and I'm not talking, I'm talking Now let me, um, be very careful of what I'm saying here often people who didn't like coloured people. Then there was a next generation where coloured people and and and white people did get married and there were then people who didn't like that because they thought that was wrong. What is gonna happen to the Children? How will they know who they are? [01:15:00] Then? The next thing about gay people having Children. The same argument happened again. How will the Children know who they are? Well, the Children actually do know I I've grown up Children who do know who they are. But in the marriage thing for me, it was saying is Don't you dare tell me I can't do this. I mightn't want to do it, [01:15:30] But don't you tell me I can't. And that was the reason why when we had the civil Union, Bill wanted to have a three day affair. We were going to have this and that, and I sort of said, Well, I won't be there. I'll be there on the last hour when we do the thing. I'm not having a bloody thing for three days, and we were gonna You know, we're gonna shoot things and, you know, have fireworks and this and that, and I sort of said I didn't see the extrovert. I just wanted a quiet little thing with a couple of people and Bill, if possible, to be there. So what we did, [01:16:00] we actually went up to We said to people We've got three houses. They are jam packed with everything. We don't need anything it. It it's It was a fine day. Bring food and drink and let's have a picnic. And that's what we did. So the whole wedding cost us $50. You know, the whole thing. Then when the marriage thing was a bill came and said to me, I think we should probably [01:16:30] do this, don't you? And I see Are you in time? Meaning I don't want this again. It's not a matter of hiding it, because I certainly didn't with the with the civil Union. But I want it to be a natural part of my life. And I if he wants a celebration, well, I've got to go somewhere there. You know? I'm not going to the registry office, that's for sure. And somebody said, Who will lift the [01:17:00] veil? And I sort of said, Oh, Bill, you look so pretty and I want to go. Sorry, but what? What can I tell you? This what we did in the civil Union? I said, Well, Bill, you've been married once and you had a relationship with Jerome? Yeah. Did you ever propose to those people? And they said, no, I didn't do it. And I said, Oh, Here you go. So I said, I'm going to propose [01:17:30] to you. Are you sure that's all right? And he said, Well, I do So I asked him if you marry me and he said Yes and do whatever it was civil union. And then I said, No, it's your turn on your knees and he got on his knees. He said, No, I would be very honoured if you would actually be civil union partner. Would you do that? And I said, I have to think about he He was furious. [01:18:00] So he said, If we do the marriage thing, I'm not gonna ask you. I sort of said We'll decide that later. So for me, I mean I This is how I thought of it. And I remember talking with somebody, and I was, you know, marriage is, is is between a man and a woman. It's a sacred thing, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's about Children and you stay together. And I thought, Well, Henry the eighth would be turning over in his grave, [01:18:30] wouldn't he? You know this this gay marriage thing You know, when he promised Now I've said to people, they said, Well, they won't last. And I said, Well, we've only had it a year. You've had marriage equality for several 100 years and you still haven't got it right. There are still divorces. There are still all these types of things. We're not going to be 100%. We won't be. We might. It might be [01:19:00] quite high at the beginning. It will level out. It will level out. But you cannot judge us if two people get together and after five years they don't work because that's how long many of their marriages work. If there are Children in it, yes, that actually adds to things. But also the marriage things means that we are taking responsibility now. You actually get less. If you're married, you get less [01:19:30] on the pension, you get less. So you need to put all those things into perspective as well. And I did, and I said, No, it's still worth it for me. If if that's what Bill wants, it's still worth it. I I'd still do it, but I don't feel I need to, and I wouldn't do the Civil Union straight away. I wouldn't because I said to them, You know, there were people. I went to the first one in Wellington and you know, it was great and went holders and that, and it was wonderful. [01:20:00] But I said, But I want it to really work through so that we're seeing lots of people doing it. Not because I didn't want to do it so that when we're doing it, we're not doing it for show. We're doing it because we need to. And I'm not saying those people did either. But I said, we have to be really sure. And I said, and I think we're pretty sure because at that stage, we've been together for 14 years or something like that. So I sort of said, Well, yeah, you know, But that [01:20:30] was really it. And so what does it mean to you? Um, you can I still talk about Bill as my partner. Although people know and we will we will still talk about it. If people ask, we will say yes. We've had a civil union. What has it done? Um, I think it has done something. I think it has cemented some things. Um, this is the longest I've [01:21:00] ever been with one person. Uh, this is, I would say probably the deepest that I felt about this now that what may have happened with or without the Civil Union, because it was the time thing that actually happened. It's the time. But the civil Union was a celebration for my family, and one of my sisters at the time was [01:21:30] a very fundamentalist Christian, and she'd been on the anti gay marches and this and that, and my other brother and sister went butchers at her saying this the man he brought you up. You know, your dad and mom weren't there. You lived with him for four years, and now you're doing this and that or you and you still come in and out. So when we would get in the civil Union, I put, I said, Look, it's over to you be there and there was all this thing. Love the sin and not the sin, blah, blah, blah. [01:22:00] And then, um, she went to the the person and they sort of said, You will not go to that wedding. She said, See ya, you never tell my sisters they can't do somebody ever And as soon as they did, she said, she walked out. We didn't know if she was coming, she said. As soon as they said you can't I said, You don't tell me what to do I'll listen to all the other things and before that But you're not telling me this. [01:22:30] And then she said, because when she had a friend who died, the church that she was with and their way of thinking is to go. You know, it's all happy. We're going to, you know, blah, blah, blah, and that's fine. So I thought, Well, this is what she thinks, But my family, we're going on and we are Maori. So we went and she could hear us coming on and she burst into tears and everything and people said, You shouldn't do that And she said, I need to I need to This is [01:23:00] the only way I know how to do this And they said, But you were being so strong and she said it was really tearing me up. I never If I go to a park funeral, unless they ask me to do something, I will never impose Maori things I want. It's not my place to that family is in mourning they must mourn and we will mourn the way that they mourn. And I noticed the first time I noticed this, I think, was at Sir Keith Holyoak funeral. [01:23:30] Either him or no, I can't remember. But on one side, all the people and they were still it was very quiet. And my family were over there too. And so I went over and I was well on our side. We were sitting down, smoking, folding legs, laughing, cackling, laughing. The body arrives. They are silent and still we are in full regalia. Everything is going. The wings happened. He'd hardly got [01:24:00] into the church. We're sitting down again and said, Oh, what do you reckon about that you know? And then by the way they did that, did you think oh comes out? The part of our people are standing still. The same thing happens. We do the whole thing. As the hearse goes, everything goes. And it was It was Then I realised that I come from two cultures and they were born in different ways. And I saw the divide at that time because [01:24:30] I could hear my Maori people saying, in Maori they're really false. Nobody could stand like that and be like that. You just don't do that. But I also knew that my people were feeling the same way about us. But that was actually Kirk's Kurt's funeral. And, um, I remember thinking It's not that I have to be one or the other. I am both and I live well with with both [01:25:00] mhm and I would hope that I will have as much respect for the person rather than the culture. So expanding that out? Is that how you see culturalism in this in this country that that actually, I think it needs to, um, it's a difficult one, that question, because the goalpost keeps shifting. Now we've got everyone saying and you know, and people understand that [01:25:30] and you hear it and and then we shifted a bit further and a bit further and because and I please don't think I'm arrogant, But I do consider myself a bicultural person, all right. A lot of the people are scared because they don't know what it means. It is really having a respect for the other people. It's saying is I would like to learn a little bit more about you [01:26:00] so it doesn't mean I come to you and sort of say, Tell me everything about people you know. You know everything. But what happens to me is I'm Maori. Sometimes I'm expected to know everything I'm expected to know about carving, about calling the women's rights. The woman's this and that. And I have a smattering of them, as most people do of of any culture and maybe a little bit more because I've had to. But I don't know everything I don't. And when I often ask [01:26:30] somebody about our colleague of mine, I'm actually asking, What do they think about something within their culture? And I'm not quest saying is, Well, what do you think about that? You know, I'm saying is I would really like There might be another way for me to think about this as well. It very rarely happens, I might say, but it has happened. It has happened. But, um, [01:27:00] people are scared of it. And what they don't realise is that probably at least a quarter of your country. I mean, Maori. I think we're 16% but I think there is another 10% who are bicultural already, and English is the second culture for them, or it's the one that's coming up. And I do know bicultural people many, [01:27:30] and it doesn't mean they speak Maori. It might mean they speak German or French or this and that, but it means that they've. If if they've gone that far, they've had to look at a culture and they've actually become immersed in the culture. Um, so I also add that to the pot of saying, there are these bicultural people. So just because a person is white does not mean they're not bicultural. Just because a person is white does not mean. And [01:28:00] I'm talking about when we had the big the biggest allegations Welsh, Scottish and the Lap Landers, the next one, the people from parts of Japan, the next one people from parts of France. And people were saying that But you know, like not the Japanese so much. But they say, but they're all white and they said no, we were taken over by somebody else. Our languages are dying, so we get together and talk about this. So [01:28:30] I got I sort of laughed about it. We're all talking about it, but we have to use English as the language because it's the one we all understand, you know? And that's another, Um, I think that's quite another salient point is that I could learn and I do speak, you know, a tiny bit of a little bit of torn, you know, just the greetings and, you know, how are you and what's for tea and all that type of thing. But we use English as you know, and [01:29:00] when I'm in Tahiti, we will use French. Or I will use Maori sometimes because sometimes that's easier for us both. But I want to keep on with my French because although it's a long way behind English, it is the second, um, most spoken language in the Pacific, and that is a French Polynesia speaks it, and there's nearly half a million of them that speak it. And I don't think there's anyone else that does that, you know, Um, [01:29:30] so those are reasons, Um, do I? I think only a person knows if they're bicultural, and if they are a fear of it, it means they're not. If they embrace it, then they all they have to do. It's going one or two steps. That's all it is. Um, it's [01:30:00] not being afraid of what happened at the Treaty of Waitangi. It's not being afraid of bad things that were done on both sides. But it's not fair to say everything bad was done on Maori side and nothing on there. And when you can come to that, I do not want an apology from people I really don't. It's a waste of time. But I would like people to come on the journey and there are many [01:30:30] journeys. Um, I thought if I'd been a lesbian, I would have had all the all the negative points, all the points I could have got for grants and everything. You know, Maori minority, gay woman, all those things. And I sort of said, you know, But those are recent now one of the actual things that many people have made mistakes about. And I understand this because I used to think this too. Is that saying, as Maori have always had handouts and I've heard this a lot [01:31:00] Oh, they always got handouts, they got housing and I've tried to say to people the land that was illegally taken today is worth $50 billion. We took 1 billion. That's still, you know, the handouts that were given to us over 20 or 30 years was $100,000. So if I came and I [01:31:30] borrowed $1000 from you and then I said, Well, here's two cents. Be satisfied with it. Would you be satisfied? No. So and if I can put it into those terms, I also do another thing which, um, I'll use the pen and it's I'll speak it through, but I'll do it. I say Take something like a ring, but I'll use the pen and I'm a Maori. OK, now this is land. [01:32:00] This is land. OK, now, for some reason it's been stolen. How they got it. I don't know. They put a fence around it, but the police come around now and they say, No, no, we've always known it's these people's land. You don't have anything legal to it. It's back. OK, now, this time it's a gold P and it's got Greenstone on it, OK, it's stolen. I've got [01:32:30] the papers that says it's mine. But before we catch the thief, he forges some more papers and he sells it to somebody else. They buy it. We're now in the 18 seventies. The Boer War comes on and it is given to the soldier that goes and he is killed. But the pain comes back and this is to a family. It is then handed down to the next soldier [01:33:00] and he goes to war and he is killed. It comes back, it goes to the family again. It happens again and again. Then finally, it comes to you. And Papa is having this huge exhibition now. And it's about pens that were done and people are bringing them. And you bring yours. There it is. But I've got a photograph here over here, and it's got all the marks and everything on it that says on it. But this has gone through your family [01:33:30] through every generation, through pain and everything. And you've got your deeds. Who does it belong to? That's what we're dealing with. That's what we're dealing with, something as simple as that. Now, for me, I would say, Well, really, it does belong to me, but we'd have to really look at this. That's you've got to be able to look at those difficulties and face them. And so when I was teaching, I would have [01:34:00] Maori and students when we were doing the Treaty of Waitangi and I would make the Maori say we don't want it and the people to say it as we do get them to play each other and the people actually understood what I was doing. The Maori people didn't and they got really angry at the arguments that were coming and I said, No, you got to keep going back Keep going back, Come back, come back, come back. It wasn't till four years later when they went to court. [01:34:30] They knew they could be passionate but not emotional, and they could put their arguments forward because what I was teaching the woman is you need to argue the point, not the person. If you get emotional, we'll all pat you on the back and we say, Oh, how awful you are, but you'll lose. You'll lose. It's not about not having passion, but it's actually really working out arguments and I would hope I would do this for anyone who was the underdog, whether they be black [01:35:00] white. I don't care if I felt something is wrong, I will defend those people. I do that at the Papa and people, stupid people. When I've gone to the people upstairs, they say, Yeah, but this is not a Maori thing And I said, I never said it was but one of my mates has actually been, you know, that they said, but he's a park and I sort of said, He's my mate and you've done this wrong. Now I will call him the Union. I will call him this and that And if you really want me to, [01:35:30] I will call another Maori people if that's got get, gets it moving and I've only had to do that once, but they know I will do it, because if somebody is wronged, I don't care what colour they are. If they're wrong, they're wrong and you don't. And sometimes I've had to go up against my own Maori people for that because I said No, this person is right, you are wrong and that's part of my bicultural journey. That's how I see it. [01:36:00] I see it defending each other of being together in good times and in bad of not being afraid. I have a thing at Te Papa, which I say to which is the thing that I brought in, especially with our team. Nobody will ever stop me speaking Maori When I speak Maori and Papa, I will. But I will never, ever talk about somebody behind who can't understand [01:36:30] me. I will talk in front of them. But I will never talk about them. I will never do. And once we've got that established people then just started enjoying us speaking Maori. And then if we burst out laughing then we'd say something in English and we'd try and get it how it happened. Now I had one young Maori woman, beautiful speaker of Maori, actually, and one day she used. She used a transliteration for her name and [01:37:00] then proceeded to speak about this person and because he didn't understand the trans iteration and she wouldn't look at him. She talked and I went straight into English and she looked at me and she then just shifted the conversation. We spoke in Maori and I kept her speaking in English and I did this for three days and she said, Why are you speaking to me in English and everyone else in Maori? And I said, because you broke the one rule and she said, but he didn't know And I said, Yeah, but I did, and we don't speak [01:37:30] of it. So you will hear Chinese being spoken Hindi, German, French and that Maori Oh, in English. So in English being spoken. And you do that on the proviso you must not speak ill of anyone. If you do, you have to speak it in the language that they understand. And this young woman said to me, But the French people were saying things about you and they even [01:38:00] used your name and I. I understood what they were saying just as simple as that. That's bicultural. One of the things that really struck me I was I was reading, um, some background material on you before I came today. And, um, you had talked in an interview about, um through storytelling, finding, uh, warmth and unexpected places through different audiences. And I'm wondering if that's a, um maybe, um, if you can comment [01:38:30] on that as a way of rounding up what it happens is that when you do it, I always say my culture is no better than yours, OK, so it brings people in and it doesn't matter what they look like, what their colour is. Hopefully I'm coming to them as an equal. And sometimes you've really I have to really push that because I'm on a stage. I've got lights coming at me. I've got all those things happening. [01:39:00] And if people cannot come up to you afterwards, I'm not saying I got. But if people don't feel that they can come up to you and ask you questions, say wonderful things or, um, how can they do something then? I'm not doing the work right. If Children are and I do answer, I really do answer. And I do when? When I'm when I'm doing storytelling. When I've done a film [01:39:30] or something, I get a lot of fan mail. I answer every letter. I answer every email so you can Obviously I'm not that famous, because otherwise I'd never be able to do it. But when I was in Scotland, this group of Children, when I got back here, these 40 Children had written letters about the story, and I want to know why I didn't tell Scottish stories and this and I wrote to each child individually and [01:40:00] I sent the letters back to them and I thanked them all. And I kept the letters for a year. Then, I think after that well, you know, I. I bet they haven't kept mine. Now they're eight. But what happened is the teacher emailed me and said We just never expected you. We thought you might do a blanket one. Every child has got their letter. And then he said So all the other Children Now I want to do it. And I said no. I said these ones did it. [01:40:30] They didn't know they were going to get a letter. They did it. Now the other ones are going to expect a letter. And what this was was the surprise for those Children. Um, and one, we were all sort of said to me, But you're in Scotland. Why didn't you do Scottish stories? Because wouldn't that be best? And I wrote to her and I said only the Scots can tell the best stories in Scotland. And I hope when you grow up that you will come to my country [01:41:00] Aotearoa New Zealand and you will tell the Scottish stories because we need to hear them from the Scots people and teacher sent me another. Um no rang me and sort of said, This little girl is crying and she's so happy and she's going to learn all the Scottish stories and she's going to tell them to you. She's going to write to you And she wrote a story to me and II. I knew she was right, and I said to the teacher, Of course, let her write the story [01:41:30] but tell her I'm going to hold it till she comes here And then I'm going to magically give it back to her. And then I'm going to introduce her and she's going to tell the story. And the teacher went now and I'm crying. If we can get people an audience, are your guests. And if they have taken the time to get look, you've got millions [01:42:00] of dollars worth of film work. Millions billions. Television is doing great work. They have taken the time to come and see you. Some of them have meant they've had to get babysitters or they've had to travel a long way to come. They're your guests. The most I've ever performed for at one stage is 10,000. The least I've performed for is five, and they were all my guests. [01:42:30] And that's how I treat when I'm on. When I do camera work, when I do anything, the people they are paying to see me, if I don't treat them as guests, then I'm not worth being there. I should not be there because I consider myself a worker and a worker for the people. And although people sort of say, Oh, yeah, but you you get limousines and everything and I said, Yeah, not every day I get them when I'm on films and and you certainly come back to Earth. When you get into the and you're getting into your [01:43:00] little blue uniform and you're doing the dishes, you know, it's certainly, you know, when I'm living in hotels and all the dishes are done. But I know what I am. I know where I am, You know what I mean? And the only complaints that people have when I'm in hotels is that I make my beds. I make my bed every day and I make my bed and I do the dishes and I keep everything clean, that sort of shit We're paid to do this. Please don't do it. It'll drop our pay. [01:43:30] Yeah, because my my mom one of the things she did say to me is You're not better than anyone. People aren't better than you. You make sure you treat everyone well Because I was a cleaner. She'd say that I was a cleaner. And I know what it's like when people look down on you and I Hopefully I maintain that [01:44:00] for us.

IRN: 840
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/against_equality.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004341
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089635
TITLE: Against Equality: Queer Revolution, Not Mere Inclusion
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ryan Conrad
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 17-19 Tory Street; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland Pride Festival; Barack Obama; Canada; Don't ask, don't tell (DADT); Edith Windsor; HIV / AIDS; Human Rights Campaign (USA); Karma Chávez; National Gay and Lesbian Task Force (USA); Neoliberalism; Pink washing; Pride; Pride parade (Auckland); Ryan Conrad; The Freedom Shop; United States of America; Wellington; Yasmin Nair; activism; againstequality. org; anti-capitalism; anti-profit; archives; arts; assimilation; books; classism; collective; discrimination; economics; equality; feminism; gay; hate; hate crime; human rights; indigenous peoples; internet; law; lesbian; lobbying; marriage; marriage equality; military; non-profit; prison; prisoners; queer resistance; self publish; transgender; volunteer
DATE: 1 March 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: 17-19 Tory Street, 17-19 Tory Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from Ryan Conrad's community presentation. The discussion was held at 17 Tory Street, Wellington on 1 March 2015.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: The sort of trajectory for, uh, this afternoon, Uh, is that I'm going to do a, uh, about a 40 minute presentation. I'm gonna try to keep it pretty tight. Um, just to give, uh, some some context and a place to jump off from for a conversation. Um, and so after the presentation, we'll do some discussion, moderate discussion, and then I guess we'll break and do some some afternoon tea for folks that are are [00:00:30] jonesing for a snack or for something to drink. Um, and then we'll move to even more casual. Let's just hang out and have a conversation. Um, So first, I'll just tell you, uh, a little bit about myself. Uh, And then I'll tell you about the collective, and we'll dive into the project. Uh, so, uh, again, my name is Ryan. Uh, I'm from Central Maine. Uh, which is in the States. Uh, it's, uh, in the northeast corner. Uh, pretty [00:01:00] rural. Uh, pretty poor. Um, does anyone know where it is? OK, some people shake their head. Yes. Cool. It's always fun to see who actually knows where my little hometown is. Most people don't. Uh So that's where I grew up. I've moved to Montreal. I'm working on a PhD in a sexuality studies programme. Uh, there. And I'm having a good time with that. Um, and, uh, the against the equality collective has sort of been a backbone. Um, of sort of my activist work, Um, and bridging [00:01:30] that with my my academic work. So that's just a little bit about me. I'm also I'm 32. I'm in a for people who want to know. Um, yeah, um, also, I'm gonna be raising my hand to do the next slide. Um, or maybe I Yeah, I'll raise my hand. Um, so we can go to the next slide. Um, great. OK, so against Equality is a small, all volunteer, anti capitalist collective based in North America that maintains an online archive of radical queer and [00:02:00] trans critiques of what we like to call the holy Trinity of mainstream gay and lesbian politics. Um, so quickly, just what this is here. And this is the collective website, um, where we manage, uh, an online archive, and I'll go into that in more detail soon. But next slide. Um, so this holy trinity of gay and lesbian politics mainstream gay and lesbian politics are sort of summed up in these three issues, right? Gay marriage, gays in the military and hate crime legislation. [00:02:30] Um, so these are the ongoing battles that have been happening in the West since the nineties largely, and are still present today in numerous different cultural contexts. And so in 2009, a very classist and urban centric gay marriage campaign was run in my relatively rural, poor home state of Maine. Um, which resulted in a referendum that, um, so gay marriage was passed legislatively, and then it was vetoed through a popular vote and so against equality actually began. Um, as [00:03:00] my own personal response, um, to, uh, this, uh, gay marriage campaign. So this is me, as from my blog, Um, and this is the the the yes and no campaign against gay marriage in 2009. Um, so against equality again, it began as my own personal blog, initially designed to air my frustrations. Um, my anger at the gay marriage campaign politics, Um, and through starting this blog, because, right, like when people are pissed off nowadays, you start like a tumblr or a blog or a Facebook post [00:03:30] right. So I was sort of using that. That same model, Um, so as this was originally designed to air frustrations and anger, um, through, uh, a lot of support I received through email, and also through face to face conversation, um, I started sensing a need to, uh, to record the sort of queer resistance that was happening to the mainstream. Uh, gay politics. So what? What started as a personal blog became, uh, what is today? Um uh, it sort of transformed version, [00:04:00] uh, of a digital archive next slide. And so how the, uh, archive works is, uh, the themes heading here. Uh, you can, um, do a drop down menu, which takes you to a digital archive of visual and written material of critiques of marriage, military inclusion and hate crimes legislation. And these materials aren't [00:04:30] just from the US context. There's also work from folks in Europe, folks in Australia, um, and hopefully folks in New Zealand some day, if people have things to submit to the archives, we're always open to taking new material. So as an anti capitalist collective, um, against equality is quite sceptical of the nonprofit models employed by multimillion dollar organisations in the US Um and these organisations are groups like the Human Rights Campaign, Um, and the National Gay and [00:05:00] Lesbian Task Force, which recently in the states changed its name to the task force. They're trying to be more inclusive by having a shorter name. Um but just to give a sense of what kind of money is at play here, um, I just gave some quick figures on the, uh the head of the human rights campaign basically makes half a million dollars a year. So, you know, he's, like, really in touch with the people raking in a half million dollars a year. And all these [00:05:30] people do is lobby. They don't actually do anything useful. They don't provide any service. They simply lobby the government. Um, and often times they, uh, actually advocate on behalf of conservative political candidates and on behalf of corporations that have gay inclusive policy, Right, So you can be a totally terrible corporation that employs slave labour. But, you know, as long as you accept domestic partner benefit benefits, you're like at a five [00:06:00] star rate rating on their chart or whatever. Um, so really fucked up people. Um, and just to note that the annual budget of this organisation is $40 million a year. They're the largest, um, in the US context, Um, and the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, operating at about $8. 5 million budget. So that just gives you a sense of like, what these nonprofit models are, right? Like you're a nonprofit, but your CEO still makes $500,000 a year, so we say, Fuck that, right? Like we're not doing that. Um, so we actually function as not not [00:06:30] anti. Not nonprofit, but actually anti profitt. Um, so we try to strike a balance between valuing our own labour as well as making our work as financially accessible as possible. Um, so when I refer to our work, um, what I'm referencing is, um, that as a project, we've actually moved towards, uh, creating cultural objects and, uh, also publications that activate our archive. Right. We're thinking about how to activate the history and the knowledge that we have. Um, and so these things, uh, in terms of cultural objects, [00:07:00] we've done a few call for art projects, um, to, uh, have some postcards designed. We did pins. Uh, I have this tote bag here that I'm gonna show you all because I think it's hilarious. Um, but, uh, for for folks who know Nancy Reagan, um, she had her just say no to drugs campaign in the US. Um, so we did a play on that, And this is actually the trademarked, um, the green and white with this terrible font. Um, um, [00:07:30] so we've actually just replicated and added the the cost to marriage. And they're, um just sort of give a nod to the feminist critique of marriage for the last 100 years. Um, as well as, um, making the joke. That, like, right marriage is the opiate of the masses. In a way, um, so we've done that. We also, um, So you can see up there. There's the the equal sign situation. Um, we also have, uh our logo is a mathematical greater than sign. Um, right. So it's I'm glad you're laughing. Sometimes the audience [00:08:00] don't laugh. That's so funny. I'm like, I'm hilarious. Um, so, yeah, I mean, pointing out that right, Like, uh, like, equality means an equal stake in the status quo. And if the status quo is incredibly violent and deeply inequitable. Um, that's not a worthy goal. Um, so we're suggesting there's something better than greater than that we should be fighting for, um, so it's tongue in cheek, but it's also quite quite serious demand that we have a greater political imagination to dream up and [00:08:30] actually create the worlds that we think would be most just and equitable to all people. Um, so another one last thing I'll say about, um, functioning as, uh, this kind of anti profitt collective. And you can do the next slide. Um, in terms of this question of access, um, we actually provide all our books for free to, uh, prisoners. Um, so we work with a book to prisoners project in Madison, Wisconsin. Does anyone know where Madison Wisconsin is? [00:09:00] Yeah. Yeah, that was a good guess. Um, yeah. It's basically in the middle of the country, kind of in the middle of nowhere. Um, but there's this really rad, um, books to prisoners project that has been functioning out of there for over a decade now. Um, and so what we do is we actually buy books at cost from our publisher. Uh, send them books and then send them $500 every six months to a year to cover the postage and shipping. Um, and so what we do is we actually put out notices [00:09:30] in two of the big, uh, the books. Uh, the black and pink, uh, prisoner correspondence project and ultraviolet are sort of three major, um, newsletters in the US and Canada that have a large prison circulation. So we put out notices and those that if people write to the books to prison project, they can get our books for free. Um, so doing this costs a lot of money, right? And we don't have a budget. Um, so we've had to sort of, um, cheat, lie and steal our way out of the debt that we've [00:10:00] accrued. Um, but in in terms of not employing a nonprofit model, um, it's actually allowed us to focus a lot more on our work as opposed to board development, grant writing and things like that, and actually doing the work that we think is really important. Um, also in the in the context of the nonprofit model, oftentimes funders actually control the conversation, the discourse and what you actually physically can do as an organisation, and and karma in [00:10:30] one of the videos will dissect that in a lot of detail. Um, so this Make sure. Yeah. So, while against equality, members often write and make cultural work about our shared politics. Um, it's first and foremost that we're actually an archive and not an organisation. And we're also not a movement. Um, I, I think we we, uh, interchange these words quite easily a lot of times, but, um, against equality is not an organisation like we don't have an office. We don't have a phone. We don't [00:11:00] have an internship Volunteer coordinator, like we don't have a budget. Um, we we are primarily an archive, and every single member of the collective lives in a different place, and five of us have never been in the same place at the same time. So it means a lot of like Skype conference calls where everyone's holding up their cats in front of the camera. Um, of course, I'm like the one fag in the collective. So I hold up my dog. Um, but yeah, there's a lot of, like, um of work doing that digitally. [00:11:30] Um, but to be really clear. Yeah, we all have, like, other jobs. We all do other things. We all do local activism. And this project is just another thing that we do because we think it's really important. Um, but again, not an organisation, not a movement, but an archive, Um, so beyond the immediate purpose of building a larger and more critically engaged community of radical queer and trans folks, we see the relevance of this work, and this archive is [00:12:00] even more important today than ever before. So, for example, in the United States, we've seen the repeal of the Defence of Marriage Act in the summer of 2013, the end of don't ask, don't tell in autumn of 2011 and the passage of federal hate crimes law in the 2010 National Defence Authorization Act. For people that don't know what the National Defence Authorization Act is, that's how the US government passes a budget for the military. For those that don't know, the US military takes up more than 50% of the US S. Actual annual budget, um, [00:12:30] and protections for LGBT people were included as a caveat to the national defence authorization budget which means the tradeoff was like global war for gay rights. If that makes sense to people, it's bad. That's a bad thing. Um, so for us, we really want to make sure that the voices of resistance are not erased and written out of history, because there's sort of a singular narrative that's coming out of the United States that we're on this linear progress narrative, and this is all great. And then the US, as a colonial [00:13:00] project, exports the discourse and the politics through foreign policy, cultural imperialism. So today I'm here talking to you to sort of break that consensus that everyone in the United States thinks this is a great thing right and that there are actually voices of resistance and alternatives that are being demanded but aren't getting any airplay and surely aren't making it overseas. Um, so we see these pieces in our archive like bread crumbs, laying out different pathways to justice and [00:13:30] resistance for those that dare to imagine a more just world. When people look back at these desperately conservative gay times, we hope our collective voices can be an inspiration to those who come after us. Those that look to our queer histories, just like we did as sites of rejuvenation, excitement and hope. So these are again just historical examples of groups that, as a collective we've looked back to as sites of resistance that inspire and encourage us to keep continuing with our work. Um, and lastly, uh, I'll [00:14:00] say that all members of the against Equality Collective have some connection to academia. Uh, as a collective, we are in various configurations tenure track faculty, graduate students, adjunct faculty, researchers and people with academic degrees. And we rely upon academia in some very material ways, for example, to assign our working class or, uh, often how we've managed to get ourselves out of debt through book publishing is speaking at universities and charging exorbitant fees. [00:14:30] Um, we're also very critical of sort of the academic norms of publishing, which promote a publisher parish mentality. For those of you who are in academia, you're probably quite familiar with us. And this publisher perish mentality that often leads academics to regard activists and activist labour activism and activist labour as sites from which to pill for ideas, often without credit. And maybe some people in this room have that experience of academics, um, coming in and then reproducing their work intellectually without actually [00:15:00] crediting the activist work that's done. Uh, and we're very critical of this. Um, So, um, maybe I'll I'll just skip ahead a little bit. Um, I want to just talk really quickly about, um, the publication projects that we've done. Um, So what we did was we published a pocket sized book every year for three years, Um, one, covering each segment of the archives, the marriage book in 2010, the military book in 2011 [00:15:30] and the Book on Hate Crime legislation, The prison industrial complex in 2012. Um, and, uh, we self publish these. Right? Um, so, like the publisher is called a E press. It lists, like an address that no one lives at anymore. Um, and, uh, yeah, we just took out a bunch of credit cards. Um, because in America, you can apply for, like, 10 credit cards at once, and like you get them, um, which is ridiculous. Um, and so we printed a bunch of books and we were just moving the debt from credit card to credit card [00:16:00] because they give you like a 0% introductory rate for like, a year. So we just, like, move all the debt and then apply for another credit card and move all the debt. Um, so that's how we That's how we did this. Um, because none of us had, like, $8000 lying around to print a bunch of books. Um, and there's there's a couple of reasons we published, um, importantly, to know everything that are in the books, Um or maybe back up. Um, those three books were republished in this anthology here, which, um, is sort of what I'm touring to support, um, [00:16:30] is when a K press, uh, which is an, uh, worker own publisher, uh, based out of the San Francisco Bay area. Um asked us if we'd like to republish all three as one book. And for us, that was great, because they're gonna pay for everything up front. We don't have to scam credit cards anymore. Um, and, uh, keeping three books in print was actually really expensive. However, um, everything that's in all these books is in our archive. So you don't actually have to buy books to participate in the conversation that we're having. Um and so people are like, Well, why would you publish a bunch of stuff [00:17:00] that you can get for free on the Internet, right, like that Seems like a bad business plan. Um, and we're anarchist. Mostly. So bad Business plans seem to come in the territory. Um, however, um, there are a number of reasons to, uh, do this publishing project. And, um, one is again coming back to that question of access. Who has access to the conversations that are happening online? So we're thinking about people that don't have high speed Internet access, which might be hard for some people who have lived all their lives in cities. [00:17:30] To actually imagine that there are places where you can't get high speed Internet in Maine, where I'm from lots of places, it's not profitable to telecommunication companies to actually put up the fibre optic cables to provide high speed Internet. Um, so you're stuck with dial up? Um, and that seems like retro late nineties early two thousands. But it's actually a lot of people's realities. Um, so we want to make sure that we had, like, a tangible object that people could have access to, uh, we did a big books to books into libraries Project to make sure that people could get this stuff for free. [00:18:00] Um, and there's also something about the book of a book that, um, uh is tangible and shareable, um, that, uh, huddling around a computer screen doesn't provide a similar experience. Other groups of people that we're thinking about in terms of access are older folks that might not have engaged with computers in the same way as a lot of us do today and have no interest in learning and that being OK, so finding other ways to engage those folks. [00:18:30] And the other biggest group is people in prison. So in the US context, we have over 2 million people in prison. So that means leaving a lot of people out of conversation when it's only happening online. Um, so the last thing I'll say about publishing before, uh, we move on to two short, Uh um, just over 10 minute videos from Yasmin and karma. Uh, is this, uh, here, um, talking about self publication and seizing the means of production of knowledge. Um, So what we're really getting at here is that, um in university. [00:19:00] As some folks may know, um, creating a citation of someone's personal blog is not seen as a proper citation, right? It's not a formal knowledge. It's not peer reviewed. It's not published in a book, Um, which is a very un feminist? Uh, it it sort of removes the personal as the political. So we give a big feminist middle finger to this ideology of proper knowledge and knowledge production to when we self publish. Suddenly this becomes official [00:19:30] knowledge, right? Like all these things that have previously appeared on people's blogs suddenly become official knowledge because it's in a book. And again the book has some fake address and some fake publisher, but it's official knowledge. Um, so then students can suddenly cite this in a research paper, and it's like it's real, as opposed to, you know, activist knowledge or or, um, sort of personal knowledge. Um, it becomes real knowledge, Um, so that, I think is also a very important part of our project is to legitimise a chorus of voices instead of being a number of disparate [00:20:00] voices on the Internet. Um, sounding like the the the you know, the people that just are too radical or too crazy. Um, is actually, you know, we're all radical and crazy together, and there's lots of us. Um, so I'll stop there. Um, what we're gonna do? Um, the first video from Yasmin, uh, sort of, uh, takes apart the, uh Do do people know who Edith Windsor is? Anyone? Edith Windsor Windsor was the plaintiff in the case that overturned the defence of marriage act in the US. And I think this [00:20:30] case is really telling for how marriage campaigns have been run. So what Yasmine will do is she'll sort of deconstruct this case and make an argument against marriage equality. My talk today will, in essence, connect the dots between the rise of neoliberalism in the US and the rise of gay marriage. I define neoliberalism as the intense privatisation of everyday life and the formation of the state which increasingly places the burden of care as a unit as opposed to [00:21:00] the state. I will be situating gay marriage within an economic context with particular elements on Edith Windsor, the plaintiff at the heart of a recent DOMA, or Defence of Marriage act. The problem with gay marriage is not that it compels people to engage in forms of assimilation or that it cuts short sex lives or that it makes them less interesting. The problem with gay marriage in the United States is that it is part of the machinery of neoliberalism and that it functions [00:21:30] both to effectively end the state's interest in maintaining the well being of people and to increase the economic power of a wealthy elite. So first is that indicate in a little while, if we are to combat neoliberalism, we need to combat the institutions and enable it to make it stronger in the US. Unlike countries like Canada and Sweden, marriage is all that can guarantee a myriad of life saving benefits, including health care and immigration status. So an iron against [00:22:00] equality, or but against equality declares itself against equality and calls for an end to marriage. What we are doing is to insist that there is simply no beyond marriage. We have to dismantle the structure which builds marriage into essential benefits. Liberals, progressives and most leftists praise gay marriage or what they call marriage equality as a mark of civilised progress while they simultaneously scratch their heads trying to understand how and why this country is moving so inexorably [00:22:30] and so brutally towards an intensely privatised state where the most basic needs of people housing, food, health care and education are simply not being map. So the question then remains. How did liberals and leftists, alike or otherwise, constantly calling for a change in the economic structure of the US fail to see that gay marriage is a part of new liberalism? I now turn to Edith Windsor at the heart of the DOMA Defence of Marriage Act case. [00:23:00] Edith Windsor, who was not legally, was not legally married to her longtime partner upon the latter's death and was left consequently with a large estate tax amounting to over $263,000. Now it's very important bye that the issue was not ever that Edith Windsor was in was unable to pay that amount because of, say, poverty. It is not that she was incapable financially [00:23:30] of paying over $363,000. It is that she felt it was unfair that she should have to pay that amount. I want to now to switch a little bit and talk about a brief piece of a piece of memorabilia. Me manteau a moment from Chicago's Pride celebration this past summer. Right after the DOMA win, a friend sent me a photo of a T shirt with someone that apparently many of the people were wearing, [00:24:00] um, which reminded me of the ways in which gay marriage serves to include in a facade the ways in which it is wrapped up in neoliberalism. The T shirt in question featured Windsor's smiling face and the words, I am Edith Windsor. In other words, there are no people marching everywhere on marching and celebrating pride, but also just walking around comfortable in the idea that they are all somehow Edith Windsor. This particular phrase, of course, is not to be taken literally, but it does [00:24:30] speak to a a general and perative idea in the community that Windsor represents a grassroots impulse towards marriage and that she is, in fact every woman. It's important in the context of understanding gay marriage as a manifestation of neoliberalism to trace Windsor's actual history. The story of how she came to be at the centre of what will no doubt become one of the most famous legal cases in LGBT history has a lot to do with how the gay movement strategically [00:25:00] chose Windsor, having carefully picked her out of a bevvy of possible cases. As we now know, Windsor was chosen as a perfect candidate. We know all of this, incidentally, from the press coverage that was present a little before, but not much. But now there have been reviews. Rather, there have been profiles of The Guardian in The New Yorker and so on, which give us all these details. She was chosen as a perfect candidate, a grieving and very presentable widow with not an explosive in her [00:25:30] past life with exemplary social networks and connections. And for this, of course, as I said, we have mounting evidence that this was a deliberately strategically planned move. It's important to note that until some weeks after the actual decision, Windsor's actual financial situation was always never discussed, and she was often, in fact, implicitly and sometimes explicitly portrayed as a little as a stereotypical little old lady, [00:26:00] perhaps living somewhere in a darkened New York City apartment, they're able to keep her lights on as they flickered in the face of poverty. All of this, of course, was most palatable for an Arab person. Over the course of the publicity leading to the case. Lawyers for Windsor, the gay media, much of the liberal progressive, straight media and gay marriage activists as seriously worked at keeping Windsor's actual life out of view. [00:26:30] Even The New York Times, which otherwise takes so much pride in being able to reveal details about people's lives and providing comprehensive reports, never once discuss the actual value of Win State. The only publication to actually eventually to even actually declare Windsor wealthy was the for was Forbes magazine. Now I'm part of a group called Gender Trust and, of course, as well against equality. What distinguishes both groups for [00:27:00] many others is that we actually consider queerness as something that works within economic frameworks, not simply as a cultural or sexual identity. To that end, this summer, gender just began an ongoing research project, which involves finding out the actual amounts of money that have been poured into marriage campaigns across this country. We are doing this because as radical queer grassroots activists, many of us are involved in queer projects of various kinds, such as working with queers in the prison industrial complex, [00:27:30] harm reduction programmes around drug use. Working with LGBT Q, youth engaged in street trade and Enlight more work on drugs as well as somewhat more. Let let us say fashionable, well, more well known issues of LGBT, Q, housing and healthcare. Those agencies and organisations that work on these matters that I just listed are often not often always desperately scrambling for funds while marriage fundraisers raise [00:28:00] literally and I am not joking here. This is literally true hundreds of thousands of dollars in single nights or in a few weeks. To put it bluntly, no one has ever seen a kick start over a marriage campaign. Every marriage campaign ever launched in big and small cities and states has been well funded by organisations like Human Rights Campaign and the National Gas and Task Force and many other. What this means on the ground is that marriage, [00:28:30] which pushes a Neil agenda privatisation, is now at the forefront of um of this supposed battle for gay rights and that it has in fact has effectively swallowed up resources that could and should actually go to other organisations. So part of all of this is that the some result of our investigation will be discovered that by that Windsor and I only will speak for myself [00:29:00] at this point, Um is in fact, worth by a conservative estimate in the region of $7 million which is to say, very few people, and probably certainly not the people wearing that t-shirt can actually be Edith Windsor, now in New York City. A work a worth of 7 to 10 million may not ensure your place to the right of the billionaire ex mayor of New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, but I think we [00:29:30] can agree that it takes you quite far in both parts of the world. I emphasise this matter of Win's financial worth because she represents the ways in which the gay marriage fight has been understood and regurgitated as a grassroots struggle engaged upon by millions of love born gays and lesbians. When, in fact, as our ratio shows him against equality and gender, just it is a massively well coordinated campaign which has cost again overall, not just, [00:30:00] um and in terms of the larger campaign, across about the last 5 to 7 years, a few $100 million altogether. That's how much that campaign has been costing us so far. You might ask, Why does all of this matter? It matters because many of the central tenets on which gay marriage is being built as a movement towards equality are in fact benefits which only accrue to the wealthy few, like even Windsor. So one of the biggest arguments around Windsor [00:30:30] versus DOMA was that this would affect, uh, positively affect all those gays and lesbians faced with estate taxes. But in fact, very few of them will ever have to owe those kinds of estate taxes. That's 12 is that if you have that kind of an estate, you really should, in the interest of fairness to all, be paying a certain percentage of your estate, uh, of of taxes. And [00:31:00] it's things like estate taxes, after all, which also fund things like public school systems. Now this is, of course, this sort of argument that all gays will benefit, whereas in fact only a few wealthy gays will Benefit is also true. For instance, in the field of immigration, which is those who are in bi national gay gay bi national couples are also benefiting from DOMA because they can now sponsor [00:31:30] their, um, their partners for immigration. What that ignores again. One pretends that this is somehow beneficial to all gays and lesbians who might have partners who are not US citizens. What this ignores is that you still have to have a certain economic value in order to be able to sponsor your partner. They actually take very hard looks at your bank account. You have to have a certain level of [00:32:00] income. Not only do you have to have a certain level of income, you have to guarantee that you will have that level of income for a certain number of years. Um, so, of course. And of course, if you have, if your partner happens to be someone who had a minor infraction or DU I or worse or was or entered the country illegally, there's no hope for a spouse sponsor a sponsorship at all. So I leave the discussion about all of that for later. But let [00:32:30] me conclude by saying that the many benefits supposed benefits of gay marriage simply as I've tried to show, are primarily benefits that the wealthy enjoy the average gay and lesbian person, or the average per straight person, for that matter is not likely to accrue in this state worth as much as that left to Edith Windsor. As it stands today, marriage in the US is a significant structural component of the neoliberal machinery of the state. In the end [00:33:00] to position the key problem with gay marriage as in essence, somehow being only about one peop about people fucking differently or horrors not at all is to ignore the much more insidious and pervasive role that marriage plays in the neoliberal state. So the second video we'll see today is from karma Chavez, who will look at the inclusion of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people in the US [00:33:30] military. Hi, my name is Karma Chavez. And I am, uh, against Equality Cops Member. And I'm gonna be doing the military portion of our presentation today. Um, I really glad that you have us here to speak, and I'm gonna be reading just to make sure, you know, we get everything right. So, um, if you see me looking down, I'm just looking at my script. So here we go. After the repeal of the US military's don't ask, don't tell policy in 2010 [00:34:00] and the roll out of its implementation. Most gays and lesbians in the United States praise the policy change. Their argument usually went something like this. We may not support militarism, but people should still be able to serve or given that it's mostly poor people and people of colour who serve in the military against military inclusion is like taking a stand against poor people or queer people of colour. Now we have always disagreed with these arguments, maintaining that we should not support US military imperialism and impunity under [00:34:30] any conditions, or allow gays and lesbians to be used as a foil for the alleged spread of freedom and democracy via expanded militarism. We also believe that we should not support the US military as the only unemployment and jobs programme for poor people and people of colour in the US. But we lost. So isn't this debate over well In July of 2013, the Palm centre from Policy and Research Centre focused on enhancing the quality of public dialogue and controversial issues, announced a new [00:35:00] multi year research initiative in order to assess the possibility for transgender inclusion in the US military. The key question for this initiative is whether it is possible to include transgender troops without undermining military readiness. The research will analyse other militaries who already have a transgender people, as well as assess transgender inclusion in police and fire departments, policies of prisons and athletic organisations and the like as legal scholar and activist as well as a E contributor, [00:35:30] Dean Spain has noted this call for new research and hence the naming of this issue as key to the transgender movement has emerged as a result of a large $1. 35 million grant by the Tawa Foundation, founded by Jennifer Natalia Pritzker, an heir to the high fortune, a recently out Trans woman and a formal colonel in the National Guard, now speeds. Critics argue that the issue is not one being put on the agenda because of one wealthy donor, but that organisations have been fighting [00:36:00] this for over a decade. But nevertheless, the issue made headlines in July 2013 for the first time, drawing attention to it as a key concern for LGBT inclusion in an unprecedented way. Meanwhile, as Spade and others have repeatedly noted, trans and gender nonconforming people, especially the poor and people of colour remain among the most likely to suffer from discrimination, violence, homelessness and premature death, and how military inclusion addresses these concerns of the broader trans [00:36:30] community is unclear. But there are more reasons that this debate is not yet over. The pathway to inclusion reflected in the don't ask, don't tell. Repeal and implementation are also the same logic being adopted more broadly by the US military and security apparatuses. In June 2009, Barack Obama picked up the tradition of the Clinton administration during June LGBT Pride Month. After his 2012 declaration, institutions including the Department of Defence, the Department [00:37:00] of Homeland Security and US Customs and Border Patrol began officially celebrating pride, recognising their LGBT employees groups and providing training for staff about the importance of LGBT inclusion to each institution's mission. That these events clearly coincide with the broader implementation of the repeal of D AD T. And to be sure, all people should be able to work in jobs where they are respected, treated with dignity and are safe. But it is important to interrogate [00:37:30] some of the ways in which this inclusionary rhetoric is being offered by these institutions, each tasked with perpetuating militarism and militarization. Well, let's begin with the Department of Defence, which celebrated pride for the first time in 2012, then DOD general counsel, now head of the Department of Homeland Security, Jeh Johnson was the keynote speaker. During his speech, Johnson made it clear that he was not an activist on the matter of gay men and women in the United States, and in fact, [00:38:00] he entered into the sustained study of the Donas hotel repeal without any particular outcome in mind. After revisiting some of the now familiar results from the study, Johnson also noted that the following long quotation had a lot of impact on the ultimate recommendation that the risks of repeal would be low. And I'm gonna read a good chunk of this year, he said. This is a quote from the report. In the course of our assessment, it became apparent to us that aside from the moral and religious objections to homosexuality, much of the concern [00:38:30] about open service is driven by misperceptions and stereotypes. Repeatedly, we heard service members express the view that open homosexuality would lead to widespread and overt displays of feminine behaviour among men. Homosexual promiscuity, harassment and unwelcome advances within units, invasions of privacy and an overall erosion of standards of conduct, unit cohesion and morality. Based on our review, however, we conclude, these concerns about gay and lesbian service members are exaggerated [00:39:00] and not consistent with the reported experiences of many service members. In communications with gay and lesbian current and former service members, we repeatedly heard a patriotic desire to serve and defend the nation, subject to the same rules as everyone else. From then, we heard expressed many of the same values that we heard over and over again from service members at large love of country, honour, respect, integrity and service of herself. End quote. Johnson goes on. And [00:39:30] that's but not the least, was this noteworthy quote in the report, which seems to be a favourite of a lot of people. We have a guy in the U, a gay guy in the unit. He's big, he's mean, and he kills lots of bad guys. No one cared that he was gay, and Johnson's remarks are incredibly telling about the risks and stakes of inclusion. First are the concerns that presumably straight service members had about what open service would mean gross displays of male femininity, increased sexual harassment, presumably from gay [00:40:00] men to straight men. Unwanted advances advances again, presumably from gay men to straight men and an overall decrease in morale. Johnson calls these stereotypes and misconceptions, and they may very well be that at the very same time that these concerns doubly function to codify the misogyny of the military as straight men clearly seem to worry both about the correlation between an increasingly feminine environment and diminishing morale at the same time that they worry about being put [00:40:30] in a feminised position as the victims, not perpetrators of harassment and unwanted advances. And there's no mention of sexual assault. But certainly that anxiety is present, too now. Johnson would not, of course, be expected to take this as an opportunity to critique the existing misogyny and sexism embedded in military culture. But instead he continues with the quotation, which unsurprisingly confronts the misperceptions with images of and words from good soldiers. Those who we imagine would share [00:41:00] their straight comrades with their straight comrades and discussed at an increasingly feminised military. In fact, these patriotic service members wanted to be subject to the same rules as everyone else and had no desire to advance a social agenda. Those are quotes. These Homo nationals then not only have no interest in changing business as usual, even if business as usual is violent toward them and others like them, they want to prove everyone wrong. Some will go to great lengths to do it. Appoint Truman by the [00:41:30] favourite quotation in the report. Again, we have a gay guy in the unit. He's big, he's mean, and he kills lots of bad guys. No one cared that he was gay. Just like allowing women in combat doesn't make for a kinder and gentler military. Gays in the military do not lead to a more open and accepting environment. Instead, if we are to consider the logic that Johnson the spouse, is here, gays can be just as mean and murderous as straight service members. And when they are able to prove the possession [00:42:00] of such characteristics, the fact that their gayness is no concern at all, at least we presume for being bad guy killing gay men. But what about those bad guys? In 2013, the DOD upped the ante, celebrating its first ever pride in the Kandahar province in southern Afghanistan, one of the bloodiest and deadliest regions of the entire duration of Operation Enduring Freedom, better known as the war in Afghanistan. The DOD put out a short, minute long video [00:42:30] to commemorate the event from the common heart. I don't want to be treated special. I just want to be treated equal. It's been a little under two years since President Obama signed a repeal of the don't ask, don't tell policy Service members were allowed to preserve lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender. People came to support people that they didn't even know. They just knew that they were part of the LGBT community and they want to come to support us. I think that right there shows how [00:43:00] the armed forces is getting ready to go. It makes my military service World war. I think that everything that I experienced, everything that I went through was worth it. In the end, if the men and women who are wearing a uniform now get to open and serve as gay, lesbian or bisexual, I think it was worth it. In the end, what does celebrating LGBT pride in Afghanistan mean to the United States. I think it's very important that [00:43:30] we are here representing the United States of America and we hope that when we leave here we have all positive qualities of what America is like and that we're an equal country. We treat all our citizens equally. Reporting from Kanar Airfield Afghanistan Now finding reports of the exact numbers of civilian casualties in Afghanistan is very difficult and it's even more difficult to find accurate reports of locations of the deaths of the exact causes [00:44:00] of those deaths. The United Nations Assistance Mission in Afghanistan released a report on civilian deaths and injuries from January 1st to June 32,013, titled Afghanistan Protection of Civilians in Armed Conflict, The report concludes. Escalating deaths and injuries to Afghan Children, women and men led to a 23% resurgence in civilian casualties in the first six months of 2013 compared to the same period in 2012. The mission documented 1319 civilian [00:44:30] deaths and 2533 injuries from January to June 2013, marking a 14% increase in deaths, 28% increase in injuries and 23% increase in total civilian casualties, compared to the same period in 2012. The rise in civilian casualties in the first half of 2013 revises the decline reported in 2012. In March, she returned to the high numbers of civilian deaths and injuries documented in 2011. As the report simply [00:45:00] put it, Civilians again increasingly bore the brunt of the armed conflict in Afghanistan. In early 2013, civilians, particularly in conflict affected areas, experienced the grim reality of rising civilian deaths and injuries, coupled with pervasive violence which threaten lives, livelihood and well being of thousands of Afghans. Now, I'm not sure how we reconcile the image of a young general enlist, marine or soldier who doesn't want special treatment [00:45:30] but just wants to be treated equal with horrifying images such as the report's cover image of terrified people running literally for their lives are their lives and deaths. The price and equality, as so many inclusion champions suggest, is the carnage of the now inclusive war machine, just an example of how freedom isn't free. Or is this entire scenario something far more complex and perhaps sinister? How should L GB and soon [00:46:00] to be T. People respond to our inclusion. Thanks a lot. I'm just gonna quickly talk about the third section of our archive. I know this is, like, lots going on. Lots of information, lots of stuff. Um, but I'll try to go through this quickly so we can move to more, um, discussion oriented, uh, stuff. Um, so here we have, uh, the, uh, [00:46:30] actual piece of the bill, uh, around hate crime legislation in the US. So, uh, LGBT inclusive. Uh, federal hate crime law in the United States, which is also commonly referred to as the Matthew Shepherd Act, was enacted into law as part of the 2010 National Defence Authorization Act. For those who are not aware how hate crime laws work, they function by increasing penalties for acts of violence and intimidation that are already illegal. For example, harassment, assault, rape. All these things are already criminal offences. [00:47:00] But the way they work is that if it can be proven that the violence is carried out or motivated by anti LGBT sentiments, it becomes a hate crime. Hate crime law, hate crime legislation in the United States has its roots in the Civil Rights Act of 1968 which protected victims of violence based on race, colour, religion or national origin. These protections were again expanded in 1994 to include gender based violence against women and, in 2009 as part of the 2010 National Defence Authorization Act to include perceived gender, sexual orientation, gender [00:47:30] identity or disability. So regardless of the effectiveness of such laws, which have already been called into question, here is one of many, many examples called into question by many feminists, people of colour and queer activists. As a collective, we, as prison abolitionists oppose any prison expansion, any expansion of the prison industrial complex, including the expansion of the policing, surveillance and prosecutorial powers of the CARCERAL state. Even when such expansions are supposedly enacted on our own behalf or for our own safety. [00:48:00] Historically, and I'm going to show a couple of examples here, we know that neither prisons nor the state have ever protected us from violence and in fact have been and continue to be, sites of violence for queer trans and gender nonconforming people, particularly those who are also of low income people of colour immigrants young people, sex workers and or drug users. So here's just an example that I think is interesting to look at because gay sex was illegal when I was in high school. So I was born in this one little red one in the sea of yellow. Um, [00:48:30] so that's where I was born. So gay sex was illegal until, like, 2002. Um, which is pretty wild, right? Um and so the ones that are even the deeper shade of red. Yeah, the the the the Supreme Court struck down the sodomy laws in 2003. This is just an example of how, um maybe we should be suspicious about our relationship to the judicial system. Um, and can you skip to the next slide? Um, and so this is also a piece of, uh, vigilante [00:49:00] justice work. Uh, Bosley wears a 1961 film made by a retired police officer in Southern California or retired police chief. Excuse me, Um, in which, uh, little Timmy here is hitchhiking home from baseball practise because that still happens. Um, and you know this this scary man with glasses and a and a thin moustache is waiting in the bushes to seduce him with candy and car rides. Um, but this is an example of right, the the historical [00:49:30] stereotype of stranger danger, right, that there's a scary man waiting in the bushes to get your Children, when in fact, most violence happens between people who know each other in places they are familiar with. So this is just another example of how, um, we might be suspicious of what our relationship is to police and corrections officers just to give some historical context. And so furthermore, as Chan Reddy points out in his 2011 book, Freedom of Violence, the Matthew Shepherd Act was passed [00:50:00] with specific penalties for young offenders. So with the already disproportionate surveillance, policing, arrests and convictions for people of colour in the US context, it's fair to assume that this expansion of hate crime legislation will actually have a disproportionate impact on the lives of young people of colour. Um, so this is just a quick, uh, infographic to give you a sense of how racialized, uh, the prison system is in the US context. Um, but what you will also notice is that indigenous people are not represented here it's a failure of the graphic that we're using. Um, but I [00:50:30] think it's also fair to say that the policy of almost total total genocide of indigenous people in the US, along with internment you can essentially say that, um, indigenous people are almost all incarcerated in giant open air prisons of the reservation system. Uh, so as a collective, we use this critique of hate crimes legislation to provide an opening to a broader queer critique of the prison industrial complex. [00:51:00] As previously noted, marriage, military service and hate crimes law serve as the holy trinity of mainstream gay and lesbian politics. Is through this critique of inclusion in the hetero status quo that we aim to have a broader political conversation about the prison industrial complex. Again, as Dean Spade has noted in our five myth busting facts about violence and criminalization, the introduction to our 2012 anthology Prisons will not protect you. Um, so I'm just gonna lay out those five quick facts, and that goes into much more detail [00:51:30] in the book. But I think it's a helpful place to start. So one jails, jails and prisons are not overflowing with violent and dangerous people, but with the poor, the disabled and people of colour two again, most violence doesn't happen on the street between strangers, but between people who know each other in places we are familiar with. Three. The most dangerous people, those who end and destroy the most lives are on the outside our banks, government courtrooms and wearing military and police uniforms. Four prisons aren't places to put serial rapists and murderers. They are in fact, themselves serial [00:52:00] rapists and murderers, and five increasing criminalization does not make us safer. It simply feeds the voracious law enforcement system that devours our communities, often for profit. Quick note about the profit. So in the US context there and increasingly more in Canada through a recent bill that was passed last year. Is there a public private partnership model for running our prisons? So essentially, the government will contract out the managing the building and managing of prisons to private corporations, [00:52:30] the largest one being the Corrections Corporation of America. And then they use their profits to form large lobby groups to increase mandatory minimums to increase penalties so that even things that were less criminalised years ago are now more criminalised. Why would they do this? Because there's a profit motive. The more beds you fill, the more money you charge the government for having full beds. Right? So then you're like shit. How do we get more people? How do we make more money? We get more people in beds, so we need to lobby for harsher criminalization of all sorts of things, [00:53:00] mandatory minimums. And so there's now this thing happened where private corporations are lobbying for tougher sentences. And then it's like, Oh, shit, the prisons are full. Now the government has to pay us to build a new prison, right? So there's a really troublesome logic capitalist logic in what is becoming a larger and larger percentage of our prisons. And at the moment, it's only as of 2013, it was. About 12% of the prisons were running on the public private partnership model. I'm sure it has continued to increase from there, and I'll also [00:53:30] make a quick note that the Australian government is actually contracting with the Corporation of America as part of their intervention in the Northern Territories. So it's a problem globally. I would, I would say, um so to continue. Uh, so hate crime law, um obscures sources of anti queer and anti trans sentiment and violence by making it personal, right? Bad people. They hate the gays. They do mean things to us while leaving structural forms of violence in place. So police officers, [00:54:00] the National Guard, the US military border, border guards, immigration and customs enforcement officers, immigration and custom enforce Immigration and Customs Enforcement, detention guards, prison guards, homeland security, private security firms, these people and the institutions they represent will never be charged with a hate crime for the violence they inflict instead. Actually, there's more and more cases that are springing up where laws that were intended to protect minorities are being used to prosecute them. Uh so, for example, [00:54:30] uh, in Boston in 2012, 3 lesbians were charged with an anti gay hate crime for assaulting a gay man, and hate crime charges have been brought against an African American teenager in Brooklyn for assaulting a white couple in October of 2014. This is what Paul Butler, the author of Let's Get Free, a Hip Hop Theory of Theory of Justice, points out in an interview as the use of hate crimes legislation to defend majority populations from minority populations. And worse yet are the hate crime charges brought against African [00:55:00] American youth in the aftermath of the 2001 Cincinnati race riots spurned by the shooting death of an unarmed black man by a white police officer. So again, just an example. Um, interestingly enough, we've been in this sort of intense political moment, uh, with the shooting deaths of numerous other African American men and other trans and women. But the media has really focused on on men in particular. Um, so just flip to the next side. Um, So [00:55:30] in the aftermath of that movement, a man drove from Baltimore to New York and assassinated two police officers. And in the aftermath of that happening, um, the Fraternal Order of Police, which is the largest police union in the United States, sent this letter to, uh to Obama and for those that can't read the part that I have highlighted for you. It says the Fraternal Order of Police writes you to advise you that we are calling on Congress to expand the current federal hate crimes [00:56:00] law to include law enforcement officers. So essentially we've created a monster, right? We we we have passed this piece of legislation that we thought would work to protect minority populations from attacks. And it's actually being used to bolster the police and also for to prosecute minority populations. Right. So, um, we have to be really careful, [00:56:30] um, as prison abolitionist. Most of us are not opposed to all forms of reform, but, uh, because we need to meet the immediate needs of people who are actually in prison. Um, but we need to be really thoughtful about how we do reform the the the the laws in our country in every country, because laws, uh, the legal system doesn't take social and historical context into account when prosecuting people. Right? So the fact that, uh, civil rights legislation around hate crimes law were actually to prevent lynching of African Americans? Um, [00:57:00] the the law does not care and will prosecute African Americans who attack white people. Right. Um, so we have to be really cautious about investments in the legal system, um, as so being able to solve problems of harm and violence in our communities. So by using hate crime law as a way to open up a critical queer lens on the prison industrial complex. There becomes a number of other queer issues relating to its seeming unending expansion, for example. And some of these images represent some of these [00:57:30] things and the criminalization of self defence, as seen in the case of the New Jersey for CC McDonald. So these are people who defended themselves from home phobic violent Attackers. Um, and after the altercation were the ones that went to prison instead of the the Attackers. Um, we also see the the intense profiling of trans women, particularly trans women of colour. And they're always assumed to be sex workers. Right. So this is the Monica Jones case up there, and she was actually denied entry into Australia when she came to speak. Uh, in this area, [00:58:00] um, also the historic anti gay witch hunts against school teachers and daycare workers accused of child sex sexual abuse, like the case of the San Antonio Four and Bernard Bar. And those two cases are examined in length in our apology, Um, and excellent, uh, as well as the criminalization of HIV, nondisclosure and exposure, A disease again that disproportionately impacts gay and bisexual men, particularly men of colour in the US context in Canada. And this is just an image from a collective that was working against the [00:58:30] criminalization of nondisclosure in Montreal, And the group is called fuck laws. Um, and so again, uh, thinking about how criminalization is being used to address a public health crisis that disproportionately impacts queer and trans communities. Um, and we're also thinking about the legacy of brutal and ineffective laws organised around concepts of sexual deviancy. So these have resulted in things like sex offender registries as well as this thing called civil commitment. And I'm not sure what the context for civil commitment is here, but essentially, you serve your prison sentence, [00:59:00] and then you're taken to the mental institution across the street where you're held in a mental health prison essentially, and you serve a one day to life sentence. So basically, you never get out of prison. And so it renders all all any sex crime, uh, life sentence, Um, and to note that historically queer and gender nonconforming people have been disproportionately impacted by these these things. Um, so each of these issues are explored at some length in the book so I won't go into any more detail. Um, but our goal [00:59:30] here isn't to critique the criminal punishment system for the sake of problem it, um, but to ask questions that help forge a pathway towards a form of restorative justice that moves beyond the punitive model. A model which more often than not, compounds or hides problems rather than deals with them by restoring the dignity of all involved in repairing the harm done so as a collective as a movement. We point our fingers in disgust at both liberals and conservatives who use the perennial get tough on crime rhetoric to win elections. And [01:00:00] we look forward to a day when our spineless leaders are getting tough on the causes of crime. Right. So those would be things like poverty, inadequate, safe and affordable housing, inadequate healthy food and water, lack of resource and treatment for drug users, lack of meaningful education and employment opportunities, lack of access to health care, racist and exploitative immigration policies. And again, these are all problems that we associate with neoliberal capitalism. We look forward to a day when these become the focus of our spineless political leaders, but we know this [01:00:30] shift comes only through a combination of fierce critique and grassroots political action. And we believe that the collective work of against equality is an integral part of that process that envisions a future without prisons. I'm gonna stop there. Um, I think what would be useful or hopefully useful for [01:01:00] folks is to, um I mean, people can ask me questions specifically about the project and the work we've done, but it might be useful, I think, to also talk about, um the parallels and the divergence from, uh, the situation that we have in the US and Canada from the experiences here. Um, so I would I would open the floors. Your talk. You mentioned so many millions of dollars for [01:01:30] dollars or New Zealand dollars. Thank you. Yes, it ties everything by 1. 2 with an exchanger that Yeah. So it's even more I gonna say, um, is the opposition um, talking about [01:02:00] in their But if I understand correctly, based mostly around the relationship between marriage and the institution and the wealthy state and the implications of that and also the methods on the main screen. Um is that easy? Um, or the group around that, Or is there a deep criticism around the knowledge? Yeah, because she mentioned that part of people fucking differently [01:02:30] or not at all, right? I mean, she's also she's not just suggesting that all this money is being wasted on this thing, but also that why do we give special rights to couples that fuck each other? Right. So that's part of the critique. Um, for sure in that, um, but I think that conversation is actually really difficult to have, at least in the US context. And also in the Australian context from being there for three weeks is that there's there's red around love and affect and emotion. And then there's red or brown like, Where are my rights? Thank you. [01:03:00] Yeah, that's great. Now you see everybody, um, So there's sort of these two competing discourses around, like, you know, I want access to, like, material things that I am given through marriage. And our critique is like, why are any of those things distributed through the institution of marriage? And, like, why can't we all, um, determine how we are family or whatever configuration we want to call it? Um, but also, like, um the difficult the difficulty is that that the affective [01:03:30] discourse raises the emotional level of the conversation that you actually can't have a conversation. So when our first book came out, we got death threats from other gay people, right? Like homophobes actually didn't care what we were doing, But gay people hated us. Um, so, yeah, I think those two competing discourses make it hard to actually have a conversation about, like, what is marriage? And it's actually a business contract between two people in the state. Right? Um, and the defence of Marriage Act laid out 1138 rights. Um, that federal [01:04:00] marriage gives people that are married, right? So that's actually the special rights that Ponti couples get. Um, but if you actually, um, I love to ask this question, and it wouldn't make sense here, right? As I ask, How many people have actually read the defence of marriage act because, like, gays talk about like, they know what the fuck they're talking about, right? And no one's actually read it. Um, the the biggest piece of the piece of legislation is actually from the General Accounting Office, so it's not like the department of, Like Love and Family. It's from the General Funding Accounting Office, right? It's like [01:04:30] we had to talk about. Like when this goes wrong, who gets what Those 1138 rights. Almost all of them are about the distribution of money and property. Um, and the other ones are about Children. But the only way they are framed is a piece of property. Um, so I It's really difficult to have that conversation when there's those sort of two competing or are are bleeding across, Um, discourse. Um, and what makes it really interesting in the Australian context is de facto marriage. [01:05:00] Um, although it's not 100% the same as gay as having gay marriage, um, actually gives people those rights. So it's almost entirely symbolic. Um, which to me is a very poor use of resources. Um, I mean, I think symbolic victories are largely a middle class victory, right? Like it doesn't actually do anything useful for the large part. I mean, I think SBA victories have their place, but it [01:05:30] doesn't put food on the table. It doesn't pay rent. It doesn't meet people's immediate needs. and I think that needs to be the centre of those conversations. And now Australia is just, like, batch it crazy that all these people are putting all this money into the equal love campaign. But they already have the thing that they need. Like, I'm I'm baffled. Um, but so much. Thanks so much for coming in and talking about this. I think you probably already been to Auckland. So you're probably aware what a timely moment that [01:06:00] it is in a at the moment. Um, and I think there absolutely so many parallels in terms of I mean, the thing is is that we exist under cap on capitalism. They will absolutely parallels with what we're talking about and how they intersect along, um, gender class, race, um, sexuality. So So, yeah, there's a lot that's going on there. I think one of the big differences is obviously that we're not fighting for marriage because that has been and gone, which, um, has been quite an interesting [01:06:30] thing and how it played out. And in some ways it's just good that it's done so that the rest of the issues can kind of come out, which is gonna be fantastic. It's kind of like cool down there. But I mean, there's definitely I think, um, there's a a large kind of, um, perspective that it was the final frontier, and therefore everything is fine. And it's only now that I'm having conversations with people that I would have been having at the time who were saying, Oh, actually, what does that really do for me? What? Is that really done? Um, yeah. Can we have a conversation about more of these issues that are happening? [01:07:00] And you've touched on a lot of them today? Um, I guess my other question, my question to you would be you have stated that you are purely an archive and not a movement organisation. And I'll be interested because, like, we were placed and, you know, we we we are a small population here, obviously in our country. And so it means that a lot of the time organise in slightly different ways, and maybe things will take, like, speed up in some ways and slow down in different areas. But a lot of that is geographical and and because [01:07:30] of our population, And so I'm interested in, um, what kinds of are there actually any movement or organisations that are working on the ground for this kind of stuff alongside with you? And I'd love to know a little bit more about that. Sure, sure. Um, thanks for all that. That's great. Um, I would say that. Can I just a quick note about the the I did it. We've already got a quality here, So, um because I, I think that really resonates with the Canadian context, right, Because marriage is actually passed in, like, 2003. Um, the great thing about marriage [01:08:00] and, uh, gay marriage in in Canada was it was passed because a lesbian couple broke up and one of them was like, Where's my stuff? Where's my money? Right. It was actually nothing to do with life obnoxious rhetoric in the states of like, Oh, we just want to be able to love blah, blah, blah like this one was like, Where's my money? And I think that's a really useful way to, like, bring it home to Americans in particular, and Australians as well, right? Marriage is actually about what happens when this ends. As opposed [01:08:30] to, um How do we publicly show our love, right, Because you can do that. You don't have to get married to do that. You can do that, or you could have a marriage and whatever. Um, but I think something that has come out of that context in Canada in particular, um, is that if you don't succeed, it's now your fault because we're all in equal playing field, right? Like that's the rhetoric is like, Oh, if you're failing at making it in society today, um and any of it has to do with, like, experiences of homophobia or discrimination Or, like [01:09:00] the hetero patriarchy, like it's your own problem because, like, we're we're all equal. Um, so it's actually more difficult to have these conversations in those contexts where all these things have passed. So even though it's really obnoxious in the US context to have this drawn out battle, um, it's actually I mean, through our work and the other groups where we've actually opened up space to have some sort of critical dialogue about, like, what is this thing we're doing? Um, but yeah, it it actually I mean, it's it is actually also neoliberal logic where you know, it individualises um failure, [01:09:30] right? Like if you're failing to succeed in today's society, it's because you made bad choices or you're an idiot or whatever. Um, when in reality like experiences of heterosexual still exist, right, Um, and where those things intersect with other identities and forms of oppression. Um, so that's I would maybe give a word of caution that that's the future, right? And it's going to be the future in the US, too. Like in June, the Supreme Court will rule on gay marriage in the US, and I am sure that it will become the law of the land. And I mean, in my lifetime, [01:10:00] I'll never see universal health care in the US. But I will see gay marriage and what does more for people. Um I mean, my life is kind of like in the half over stage, because I'm in my thirties now, so I'm like, OK, that won't happen while I'm alive. But gay marriage has go figure, um, questions about, um uh, groups and doing this work, um, all of us that are in the collect of art involved in actual groups. Um, doing activist work and movement building work, [01:10:30] um, as well as a lot of the contributors to our project. So the book project is an anthology, right? So lots of different people have have contributed work to us. Um, and one of the the really great organisations we look to is called queers for economic justice. And they were based out of New York City and have, through austerity, closed after being around for more than a decade. Um, but their website still exists. They did lots of work in the homeless shelters in New York City and did like big media [01:11:00] campaigns around access to, um, LGBT inclusive housing, homeless shelters, trans inclusive shelters. So there's folks like that, um in in my community in Maine where I come from, my primary work was around HIV and AIDS service provision and maintaining the one remaining queer and Trans youth drop in in the entire state. There used to be seven others one, and that's largely been through the work of of mostly like welfare dikes [01:11:30] from rural Maine, maintaining and making sure that those places kept their doors open while the inner city wants through the professionalisation of activism wouldn't do anything if they didn't get paid. So Yeah, I think there's lots of people doing lots of really great things. Like some of our contributors have been part of critical assistance. Um, which is the prison abolition organisation founded by Angel Davis. Um, there's other folks involved, um, in the Sylvio River Law project based out of New York to the Transgender Law Centre. Um, that's [01:12:00] actually also been doing really good work around health care and identification documents. Um, so there are like, even though I feel totally hopeless most of the time, there are actually, like, rad things going on that, um I mean, I feel like the against quality project has actually connected a lot of those dots for people because we, for example, like British for economic justice. We've republished one of their statements on military inclusion in the book with a project. We've included a statement from them on [01:12:30] Matthew Shepherd and Crime Hate Crime Act from them being critical of it. So I feel like as a project, we're trying to connect those dots for people and give people access to um I like to think of this as a gateway drug. Maybe, uh, you know, like, uh, that that book you find that gives you access to all sorts of other people doing other things in other places. Um, so, yeah, I would say even just flip through the the contributor section of the book and you'll see where people are working. Um, And again, I mentioned the prisoner correspondence project is a queer and trans, um, penpal [01:13:00] project that connects people inside and outside. Um, as long as as as well as also, um, like they they have just made tonnes of PDF S on their website that you can download and grant and send to your inside pen pals around farm production, safe sex in prison, how to clean needles in imprison and limited resources. There is black and pink, which does prisoner support projects. A lot of fundraising for people as they exit the prison system. Uh, and who was the other one? Uh uh [01:13:30] Uh uh Oh. Ultraviolent. Is this, like, radical middle aged lesbian collective that supports women prisoners in the US women lesbian prisoners in the US prison system. So I think there are lots of things, and I'm sure there's, like, other things to that. Maybe other people can speak to have cool things going here and maybe the the one last thing I'll share, Um, the petty and vindictive collective, which is the group of folks organising in Auckland that, um um, for folks. I'm [01:14:00] sure most people know it. I'll say it anyway. Um, they organised a contingent to confront, um, the uniform corrections officers that were marching in the Pride parade in Auckland. Uh, which resulted in private security attacking, um, three people and breaking, uh, indigenous Trans woman's arm. Her name is emy. And since that happened, there's also a number of a T MST M SI. I heard that happen here, too, Like ATM [01:14:30] S. But they were vandalised, and the banks actually framed it as an attack on their gay and lesbian, um, workers just like toy toy wild? Um, yeah. As if defacing a bank is attack on like someone who's a teller. Um, so yeah, So there were a number of actions that happened. Um, and Penny, a vindictive, is not responsible for all those things. I don't want to put them in harm's way, but they were the ones that organised the the the intervention to the Pride parade. [01:15:00] Saying what? What does it mean to include corrections officers and police officers in a parade. Like who does that then, Um, exclude, um, through including those people. So, yeah, there. There's I'm sure, like those are just like a handful of people in Auckland. So I'm sure there's other people who's doing cool stuff is really what I want to know. Thank you. Who wants to do cool stuff? That that's also part [01:15:30] of what people like? Yeah, a lot in the US about is a way to access social welfare type things. And I think we've got quite a different situation, non consensual recognition of factual relationship and, um, which obviously we manage and benefit from it. I mean, some of the things we've experienced into gaps. [01:16:00] You take care. The disability related issues like health care, all kind of sort it out. Yeah, that's great. Um, and there's there's also a parallel bit of difference in the in the US context because we don't have de facto. Um, but there is a situation where people, um, don't get married, because if you are on any form of state, um, benefits, like, uh, for us, it's like Section eight housing vouchers, food [01:16:30] stamps, Social Security income. If you get married, you become a double income family. Your benefits are reduced, right? So if you're if you're disabled or you're poor and subsisting off of some sort of state benefit, what few we have left? Um, yeah, you, You you lose those, or they're reduced because there's the privatising logic of marriage which says you should meet all your immediate needs to the family, which I imagine would be complicated here where people are suddenly in de facto, [01:17:00] even though they didn't consent to being in this de facto. Um, yeah, I can imagine that being a really serious issue, um, I'd say one other sort of similarity that's happening in the US context. Um, Arizona State University, which is a public university, sent out a letter to all its employees in December just after Christmas. That said, if you're not married by January 1st because gay marriage had just gone through a legal battle there and became legal, [01:17:30] it was, If you don't get married by January 1st, you no longer can access domestic partnership benefits. So, uh, similar, like, coercion to to to marriage. Um, that is quite dangerous, right? Um, because a lot of the rhetoric around like we should have the option to be able to choose to get married. And it's like, Well, if it's the only way to meet your material needs, it's not choice. That's coercion. I think that choice is like the the like key of of sort of the neoliberal logic, [01:18:00] right? Is that we saw choice around. Yeah. Um, sorry, I just Yeah. Yeah. As you have said, there's the frame of choice, but as someone who the course of my new life on, like the or the sort of, uh, cultural. And one of the things I took away from those kind of days was, Yeah, you can talk about choice, but choice really is the freedom when Frank wrote, [01:18:30] Yeah, I mean, it's It's certainly not freedom when you have to participate in an institution to access health care, for example, that's that's not freedom. Appreciate it to discuss. Maybe we can if there aren't any other direct questions we can shift to, like, more casual, you know, like the good conversations happen after the thing is over and you're just like hanging out. I always like [01:19:00] to make time for that So, um, maybe we can shift to people want peruse books, and we have some snacks and tea and stuff. Is is there any burning last question before we shift? Cool. Well, thank you so much for hosting me. Thanks for being such a great, receptive participants. And, um, yeah, I hope.

IRN: 843
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089634
TITLE: NXT:15 - LGBTIQ Youth Leaders Conference
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ben Isderman; Kevin Schuster; Melissa Janson; Robbie van Dijk; Tabby Besley; Tarn Billingsley
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Auckland; Ben Isderman; Drodrolagi Movement (Fiji); Embassy of the United States; EquAsian; Female Sexuality (FemSex); Fiji; InsideOUT Kōaro; Kevin Schuster; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Melissa Janson; NXT15 - LGBTIQ Youth Leaders Conference; NXT:14 Youth Leaders Conference; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; Pacific; Pema Wu; Rainbow Youth; Robbie van Dijk; Rule Foundation; Tabby Besley; Tarn Billingsley; UN Youth New Zealand; Welby Ings; aromantic; asexual; bisexual; buggery; depression; discrimination; fa'afafine; friends; gay; gender; governance; greysexual; history; homophobia; identity; language; lesbian; mental health; monosexual; pansexual; polari; racism; sexism; sexuality; stigma; suicide; transphobia; women; youth
DATE: 21 February 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Participants at NXT:15 talk to Tabby about what the conference meant to them.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Ben Heideman, and my organisation is called Equation. And how's the cock print been for you? The conference has been really good because, um, not only, um we have some Asian faces out in the conference. Um, everyone also learned a lot from each other. Like we learned a lot from other Pacifica organisations and et cetera, And, um, and they also learned a lot about [00:00:30] Asians as well. So that's quite fascinating for everyone. What was your highlight? Well, there's quite a few highlights. Um, I think, um, during the next 15 youth leaders conference, um, one would be, um, the presentation that was talking about, um, the lost language. Um, well, the language of the LGBTI Q people. Um, as the nation [00:01:00] progresses, Um, part of the language was being lost. And also, um, we still want to retain our history, and we want the history to be documented so that the future generations can learn what happened in the past in New Zealand as well. Um, so all that hard work and discrimination and the lives that were lost with not in vain. Um, and there's also are the highlights such as, um, this the [00:01:30] gentleman, um, David from the Long Island. Talking about how he started an organisation called Legacy. And, um how, um, from one little branch, um, they open, um, two other branches across Long Island and the struggles that they had, um, putting those up when they have lots of oppositions, Um, against them having the centres open very close to churches and very close to very [00:02:00] traditional families. And they managed to, um, open several centres and encourage a whole lot of other people to be happy about themselves. And, um, and a lot of those members, um, it's kind of like in New Zealand as well. Like, um, how a lot of them were suicidal. Um, have a lot of depression, was not very happy. And, um, and suddenly they have this all these like, really safe spaces, and they could be proud of themselves and have marches [00:02:30] and parades and et cetera. So that's some of the highlights. And of course, um, and I did a presentation about, um Why it's important that other organisations, um, needs to include, um Asians as well, because with minority within the minority and, um and there's also a lot of problems in the Asian communities that not many people would [00:03:00] know or talked about, which is taboo in the Asian communities. What will you take away from the friendships? I've met a lot of really awesome people and future youth leaders, Um, from all sorts of different organisations, um, throughout New Zealand, um, and also throughout the Pacific as well. So that's very fascinating to to have people coming in all the way from cook Islands to, um, to Auckland just to go attend [00:03:30] this amazing conference. Um, getting to know one another. And, um, I'm Melissa Jansen and I come from I guess the organisation I came representing is called same sex female sexuality. Um, how's the conference been for It's been awesome. It's hard to articulate into one kind of sentence or theme because, like, I don't know, [00:04:00] at this stage, I'm a bit burnt out by all these kind of new ideas and lack of sleep. Um, so I think that people like, as we got into the conference, develop their ideas more, and the conversations got better and better. 2nd and 3rd day. What were your highlights? Um, it was great to have some strong women on the panel today on the Pacifica [00:04:30] panel. Um, I think meeting like networking and meeting with a whole bunch of new people. Um, well, me was a was a highlight in that he didn't He wasn't scared to, like, share himself and really kind of go there and ask questions and push those yeah, push boundaries that [00:05:00] I wasn't really expecting. Um, is there anything you'd like to see for next time? It wasn't at this one. Yeah. More talk about, um, bisexuality and sexuality. I actually counted the number of times people use the word gay and lesbian today. And it was in in one session, and it was 27 compared to seven times with the acronym LGBT [00:05:30] or LGBT Q. I, um But when it had to be in it, it was never actually bisexuality or pansexuality on its own. So I think I think we I wanted to raise this this discussion, Of course. We run out of time. I think there's Yeah. It's funny how it ends up being about mono sexual identities and like so, I think, [00:06:00] Yeah, I would like to see more of me represent out there. And what That what that means and more people. Kind of saying I'm bisexual or pansexual or just, um, yeah, talking about that experience, like coming up is that experience or just living life? Is that experience? He definitely went alone there. Um and what will you take away from the covering? It was interesting to see how people do things differently [00:06:30] in their different organisations. So that got me thinking because I do things one way in our organisation. Um, it was also great to take away an international perspective. Both the US and the Pacific. Um, I guess we sometimes think of the Pacific as part of us. But in another way, it is international, like it is more than just local. Like it's local [00:07:00] international. I don't know how to explain it. Also. Yeah, also, what one thing? That money. Mitchell said that we're 12% 12% like, yeah, our community makes up 12% and that What if we could have 12% of the funding to do to do things? So just that Yeah, there's a lot of us, which is the theme of the conference. Uh, my name is Andrew, and I'm from Auckland. And how has the conference been [00:07:30] for you? Ah, fantastic. Really, Uh, challenging and an opportunity for growth. So, um, it's been a lot of fun. Um, what have the highlights been for you? Uh, I think really being around or like, people who really take up the mantle of being authorities on their own identity. Um, and being able to sort of experience someone who really just [00:08:00] wields their their their gender and and their sexuality, and and with such confidence in ways that sort of are are inspiring. And and, um, you know, really good for self reflection as well. Um, is there anything you'd like to see at the next one that you felt was best? Uh, I think there wasn't enough discussion of the asexuals community, the a a gendered [00:08:30] community, Uh, a romanticism. Um, there's grey sexuality, and, um and I suppose, um, yeah, uh, sort of the the less sexually overt, uh, side of the of the queer community. Um, sort of doesn't doesn't often get represented because it's not a very loud voice in a in a, [00:09:00] I suppose in a in a community that has historically grown out of a struggle, not just not just to be able to love who you love, but it it grew out of a stigmatism around sex and specifically buggery. Um, you know, historically, in New Zealand and Britain, Um and so I feel like it's really important for the rainbow community to recognise that and to [00:09:30] make adjustments to to actually make space within within the the queer community for those voices. Um, rather than expecting them to to perform at the same decibel. Right. Um, what will you take away from the conference? I suppose, uh, the the really cool thing is to is to see all of these new organisations starting up and people starting to work together and, uh, to unite [00:10:00] their communities and and particularly with, like, equation and with, uh, Rainbow Youth and some of the more, um, you know, the more the more I suppose advanced, um organisations sort of coming together and starting to deal with those really, really tough issues at the intersections between racism and sexism, homophobia, transphobia, biphobia, [00:10:30] um, and having this this new generation of people with new ideas, looking to tackle these problems. So it's Yeah, I suppose, um, as as an academic, I think like qualitative research is a huge part of of my motivation, um, to actually be here to be present in the next in that generation and in those new voices See [00:11:00] what they want and what they have to say in the new dynamics of the queer community and take that away and actually try and produce something that reflects the current times, um, to stay updated because so often, so often, academia doesn't, um but yeah. So I suppose I'd like to take that away and use use that to give something back to the queer community that suits [00:11:30] them. Um, that they want that they've asked for that. We've got a dialogue and discourse around. Um, so it's not just this paternalistic analysis of of of queers, which so often is the case. Um, can you please tell me your name and organisation? Of what? Your role? Um, my name's Robbie Van Dyke. Um, and I was the conference coordinator for next 15 as well as next 14. That happened last year. Um, how's the conference been for you? It's [00:12:00] been really different this year, which was awesome. Last year was a lot more people, and it was really full on lots of speakers. Sort of talking at us a little bit more than with us. And so this year, we tried to make it a bit more conversational. A bit more youth, run a bit more, youth led. And I'm really happy with how it turned out this year. What were your highlights? Um, my highlights were saying all the youth come together and [00:12:30] really start to tackle and discuss the really important underlying issues. And I really enjoyed how we had representation from some of our marginalised communities within our queer family. Um, is there anything you'd like to see next time? That wasn't at this? Um, it's hard to say, really. Um, lots. But you can only fit so much into a weekend. I'd really like to see more discussion around how [00:13:00] to actively interact and associate and include all of our marginalised communities. I think that, for me is a big issue as well as working on a way to develop a national network for sharing resources. Um, what will you take away from the conference? Um, I'll take away a couple of things. Uh, one of the things which is, I guess, slightly negative that came out of one of the speakers was that nothing is certain and nothing is forever. So [00:13:30] our work is never going to be 100% done or guaranteed, which is a bit terrifying, but also, it gives us something to continue to strive for. I think that was probably the main thing for me. Um, can you please tell me your name and, um organisation and where you've come from? Clare from, um, UN Youth, which is a organisation that's focused on civics education primarily for, um, high school students, but also university students, and it's run across the country. [00:14:00] How was the conference for you? Um, it was really fantastic. It was great to meet people from so many different queer focus organisations. Um, and just make those connections and learn about what people are doing. Um, what were your highlights? Um, I think the the two panels the, um, Pacific island panel, um, and then the equation of not panel, but the equation discussion were both really valuable and interesting. What did you get out of this? Um, just a different [00:14:30] perspective and a reminder that the western way that we think about, um, sort of LGBT Q is not the only way of thinking about things and that there are these different cultural perspectives that are worth remembering. Is there anything you'd like to, um, see at the next one that wasn't at this one? Nothing that immediately comes to mind just continuing to get the, like, the really diverse attendance and different perspectives on things. Um, And what will you take away from the conference? Um, [00:15:00] lots of really great connections. So I think I'm definitely going to be able to go forward and get involved with some some more things. Having met all these amazing people doing amazing projects across the country. My name is Rama. I'm from Fiji. And I'm here for the next 15 conference on behalf of, uh, an LGBT Q organisation in Fiji called the Movement, which is stands [00:15:30] for well, in English. Term is, uh, rainbow. It's like a rainbow movement. And yeah, how's the conference been for you? Uh, it's been great. Um, I wasn't expecting this much. There was, like, a lot of, like, just open dialogue. There's some, you know, with the critical issues being spread across the room. Well, it's been great. It's been a good [00:16:00] experience. Yeah, love the people get energy. So much knowledge on the issue of LGBT Q. I'm like, Oh, my God. I'm just so happy that I came. Yeah, OK, um, what have the highlights been for you? Oh, the highlights. Yeah. The highlights for me would be, um yes, Well, to be part of the family that you know, [00:16:30] the LGBTI Q community. Well, I'll probably just say Rainbow. So yeah, the rainbow community here in New Zealand and from the other two Pacific island countries, I think it's the memories that we have all made. Um, the the very Yeah, the widespread, uh, spectrum of this, uh um for the minority group, like, Yeah, [00:17:00] that's I think that's the most. That's the highlight moment for me and, uh, yeah, probably being part of the battle. I think that was also a high highlight moment. I really enjoyed it. Um, yeah. Is there anything you'd like to see happen at the next one that wasn't at this? Yeah, um, in the next conference, um, well, um, I probably just, uh, include the other. I think it's a great [00:17:30] job that the organisers, together with the US Embassy of New Zealand have done, um, with other other organisers here in New Zealand. But I think, um, in terms of inclusiveness, maybe speaking in terms of like, the broader Pacific, it would be great to see other Pacific Island countries as well that were not part of this forum to be able to be part of the [00:18:00] problem next year, which will be really good, because I think, um, different countries have different ways of I mean, they have different issues of the There are different moments on LGBTI Q, and it would be really nice for them to share the experience. What will you take away from the company? Oh, I'm taking away a lot. I think I Yeah, it was this, like, a tangible [00:18:30] item in terms like the knowledge and everything. I'm probably going back with the 100 KG of what knowledge? It's been great. Yeah, I think it's the the experience alone. It has been great. Uh, but it's the issues. The issues that were made, uh given out the challenges and ways to counter these challenges. And it's been [00:19:00] really good. And this is what I'm taking back. I've learned like, a lot in terms of like, how to go and deal that, like, deal with LGBTI Q issues back in PG. I love a lot of, um, information that we've given out in terms of like, um, the different projects they are working on. And I would like to, like, do the same thing in Fiji, and it's Yeah, I think that's what I'm taking back. Yeah, and yes, with the friendship [00:19:30] as well. Um, hi, I'm Kevin. Kevin Schuster. I come from, I'm from Samoa, and I was actually I was actually just, um, selected by the US embassy to come for the conference. There's a Samoan association that I am not part of. However, I established the, um the association called various [00:20:00] artists for all the and the National University of Samoa. Um, interestingly, there were some straight guys and girls that joined the, um association, and it kind of died out. Well, that was my last year of the UN, um, of studies in uni. So I left straight after, and I knew it continued, but just the beginning of this year, we relaunched. Um, the association [00:20:30] and we're looking at everything like, um, Constitution, you know, everything. Like that. And how is the conference for the conference is was really eye opening in terms of um now, for the first time that I've been exposed to terms like LG TB Q. And then just today earlier today, I learned a lot of other new things, like asexuality and, you know, et cetera, [00:21:00] et cetera. Um, but also, um, in terms of, um, you know, gay men, lesbian women, We've never before come together under a roof and this and talked openly about our sexuality, um, gender identification and all that. So in the past three days, um, for the conference, [00:21:30] You know, I I can only hope that the world out there is just this these people. Yeah, because I'm talking about, um I was also uncomfortable in the first place to sort of discuss my sexuality because there were straight guys to me. But, you know, they're gay men, and also fantastic and lovely ladies that, you know, I just found, like, you know, they're, [00:22:00] you know, they're all interested in, you know, same sex relationship and that, um what were the highlights for you? The highlights was, I would say, um, the, um the parallel sessions that we had yesterday. Um, I was very, very interested in the, um, How our discussion was facilitated on the topic. Good governance. Um, and also, [00:22:30] interestingly, the, um, situations that were given us scenarios. Um, And also today, during when we were panel, we were panel members and, you know, been given the opportunity to talk freely and, you know, convincingly about against gay men not against, as in, you know, going against them. But, you know, the terms for and it's, [00:23:00] um, and the perception of it in Samoa and here in New Zealand and also vice versa. Yeah, I think those were the highlights. Is there anything you'd like to see at the next one, talked about or people there that were at this one? Um, I think, um, for the next conference, um, I recommend that the Pacific Islanders, [00:23:30] um, are sort of well briefed before them coming. And it's really, um I think the, um of the Western, um, members Or, um, I mean, the the they're very interested in hearing our voices, but preferably all together. So if we were to sort of, you know, dialogue, like a month [00:24:00] before the, um conference so that we sort of come prepared with something from so that we don't have real. We don't have disagreement or that kind of thing. Like we kinda, you know, have to really have a structured presentation. And we just keep talking about our culture, but nothing really, from us, sort of sort of really broke that out. That, you know, we do are we are really people from [00:24:30] from very, um, rich cultures. Like the presentation that we did today, Um, I think ideally would be, you know, it is It's our culture that we give. So it would have been nice if we all planned before the conference that we would give, like, little things for maybe all the participants. Not. I mean, you don't really want something of value, but you know something, because that really reflects our culture of giving. Cool. [00:25:00] And what will you take away from the print? Oh, the fact that, um, there's lesbians gay LG TB Q. Um, like I said, um, straight guys and girls actually joined, um, our association at the National University. Now, I know maybe maybe some of these men that joined and also women that joined are also gay themselves, Um, the lesbians. But, you know, they're just there's nothing to really discuss, [00:25:30] like, you know, Or maybe they're thinking that, you know, something is wrong with them, but, you know, that's why we need to have this conversation. Um, my name's Tanya Billingsley. Um, the organisation I'm with is inside out, and I've come up from Wellington for the conference. How did you find it? Um, I found it. Yeah. Good. Lots of really amazing people there. Um, and I think some discussions that we had that were needed to be had especially around, [00:26:00] um, like, um, I guess, like Pacifica, identity and, um, community and also, um, like Asian stuff. Yeah. What were your highlights? Um, just the people there. Yeah, they are really awesome. They are people that were attending. Yeah. Um, is there anything that wasn't happening at this conference? Um, that you'd like to see happen in the next one? Oh, [00:26:30] I think maybe more you a more young people speaking like it was a lot of the stuff was young people speaking, But I think that at a youth conference, like it's really important to like, um, like, look at actually what people are doing in New Zealand and how amazing it is and [00:27:00] hear from them. Like, maybe, rather than having people come like from the States, you know, the money that went towards that could have gone to getting gone towards getting more people to come to the thing within New Zealand or something like that. And, you know, you have, um, people in New Zealand who are able to deliver kind of this, like, equally as awesome like stuff. So, yeah, and one thing I would also suggest is that, um it's like things I've been to similar. Like, it's [00:27:30] really awesome if everybody is staying in the same location. So if we all did stay on the because it is a really awesome way for people to be able to kind of spend time together and, um, network and just kind of form more of a bond over the weekend. Yeah, and cheaper for them. And easier than finding like accommodation throughout the city and all being split up. And yeah, um, and what do you think you'll take away from the cockpit? I really enjoyed, um, [00:28:00] So one of the talks was on governance. Good governance. And I really feel like I got a lot from that and that I'm gonna continue, like, following up on that and learning about it. Um, and also, um oh, there's heaps. There's just heaps. Um, also on, like, engaging with community. Um, on the thing that presented I really like that and just heaps of stuff. And, like, um, just I think the biggest thing is to take away is kind of [00:28:30] the, like, amazing people that we met and, like, how to further work with them. Yeah, My name is Tabby Ley. Um, and I came from Wellington, and my organisation is inside out. I found the conference. Really? Um, good. It was really awesome to have that opportunity to get lots of our kind of, um, young leaders in New Zealand together to kind of meet and connect and learn more about each other's different organisations and things like that. Yeah, so it was a really cool opportunity, [00:29:00] and I wish it could happen more often. My highlights were probably, um, kind of meeting the amazing people that were there. And, um, some of the kind of workshops and speakers were really great. Um, there was a really amazing talk by, um well, beings kind of about the lost language of the queer community. And, um, lots of these words that, um, some that are still used in society and some that have kind of died out. But, um, we started in our community, [00:29:30] and, um, just kind of learning more about that and other, um, kind of history of, um I guess the rainbow community in New Zealand was really, um yeah, interesting. And, um, kind of looking at what happened, um, with the aids quote. And, um yeah, all sorts of really interesting stuff. Um, I also really like, um the talk and the panel from the, um delegates that came from the Pacific [00:30:00] Islands. Um, they got to kind of speak about sexuality and gender and their different cultures and, um, what it's like there and their experiences. And that was a really cool opportunity to learn more about that. And look at the differences, um, between New Zealand and places like Samoa and Tonga and, um, equation, which is an awesome, um group for kind of Asians in the rainbow community that started up in Auckland about a year ago. They got to do a really [00:30:30] cool talk. Um, about what things are like for people in their community as well. And I think that was a really, um, great thing for for everyone to be able to listen to. Yeah, there was heaps of really cool stuff, and I think just kind of getting our communities together, um was really great. Next time, I'd love to see more discussion around kind of bisexuality and other, um, kind of minority [00:31:00] sexualities. Um, there's a big discussion about kind of asexuality and a mental, um, but bisexual kind of the whole weekend, the only time it was mentioned was as part of the LGBT acronym, Um, which was kind of really disappointing. And there was kind of no, um, no out bisexual speakers or just kind of that was never talked about when bisexual people were kind of at some of the, at most risk in our community, um, kind of facing [00:31:30] at least within lesbian, gay and bisexual communities. They're facing kind of the, um, kind of worst mental health experiences. And, um yeah, another kind of those bad statistics. So, um, I think it's really important that we give some attention um, to bisexual and pansexual and, um, fluid identities. Um, in the future, what will I take away? Or, um, I think I'll take away the awesome connections I've [00:32:00] made with, um, some other organisations around the country. Um, and definitely kind of more learning about, um, sexuality and gender and kind of Pacific and Asian context. Um, and yeah, more about the history of our community and all sorts. Really? Um, yeah, it was really great.

IRN: 847
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_rainbows_shane.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004339
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089633
TITLE: Shane - Beyond Rainbows
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Ara Taiohi; Auckland; Auckland Pride Festival; Auckland Pride Gala (2015); Aych McArdle; Beyond Rainbows (series); Dykes on Mics (Auckland); FtM; GALS (Gay and Lesbian Singers, Auckland); It Gets Better; Lesbian Ball (Auckland); Lesbians on Latte (Auckland); Lynfield College (Auckland); OUTLine NZ; Orphan Black (tv); Rainbow Youth; Tabby Besley; Wellington; acceptance; bathrooms; clothing; coming out; diversity group; fag; family; femininity; gender fluid; gender identity; gender neutral bathrooms; gender studies; hate; hormone replacement therapy (HRT); identity; internet; lesbian; masculinity; media; minority; name change; peer support; preferred name; pronouns; psychology; queer; queer sphere; representation; school; school uniform; sexuality; testosterone (T); transition; transmascbian; transmasculine; transmasculinity; university; women; women's studies; youth
DATE: 9 February 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Shane talks about identifying as gender fluid transmascbian.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So, um, gender identity I identify as gender fluid. Um, and so as a friend of mine has, um, I guess given me the title or the the way of describing it. Um, boy in the streets. Girl on the sheets. Um, I guess that's just an easy way to kind of get your head around it some of the time. Um, yeah. So when I'm generally when I'm out in public and stuff, I will be dressed [00:00:30] how I, I think would be quite relatively masculine. Um, And then I guess in private, I could be quite feminine, which not a lot of people get to see, but yeah, um, sexual orientation. Um, I always identified as a lesbian. Um, however, I, I guess a a lesbian is is really specific, I guess. [00:01:00] Because when you say that you're a lesbian, people assume then that your gender identity is female. Because a lesbian is a woman that likes women. That's what people have come to know. And so, um, that same friend is very good at making these things. Um said, Well, what about a trans trans masculine lesbian? So I'm like, Yeah, that that sounds good. So yeah, I now identify as a transco. [00:01:30] Cool. It's awesome. I love how people make up their own, like, weird stuff. Have you got any anyone else using that term with you? Um, no, not yet. I don't I don't know anyone else like that, but I'm I'm sure there's plenty of us out there. And how did you discover the word and kind of identity behind gender fluid? Um, I don't really remember. I mean, originally, I it was just really confusing because I I had thought [00:02:00] about transitioning, um, so F to M transitioning, but it it just didn't quite fit. Um, I did outline training, and, um, one of the people that came in to talk to us, um, they were M to F. Sorry. No, they were, um, FM. And, um, they had taken tea and that. Yeah, so they were living their life as, um, as a guy and [00:02:30] something that really struck home, I guess was that they said the only reason they did hor hormone replacement therapy was so that people on the, um could see what they felt on the inside. And I think that would also be, um, that would be a reason that I would do it too. And I felt that for me, that wasn't the right reason. Um, and they had said that otherwise they wouldn't have done it. And looking back now, they they wouldn't have done it. [00:03:00] Um, I guess for a lot of trans guys, that's great. That that works for them. However, for me, it didn't. And so I thought, OK, well, if I'm not transgender and I'm not a butch girl, that that's definitely not me. If anyone knows me, they know that I have a very feminine personality. Um, So where do I fit? Um, and so I guess I I must have looked it up online. I mean, everyone looks things up online, and I guess I must have found gin fluid. And [00:03:30] I was like, Well, that kind of fits, because sometimes I still feel quite feminine. Um, And even though the majority of the time I feel more comfortable and more a more masculine persona, Yeah. So it it fits. It's a very broad term. Yeah. Yeah. Did you feel or still feel, um, any, um, any pressure pressure? Um, to transition or to take ones from other people [00:04:00] in the community? Um, no, not in the community. I find that there are quite a few young people that are quite similar to me. Um, and I get Yeah, since there's a there's a whole group of us. I there's there's not a lot of pressure, although from the, um from a lot of the older community, I've had questions like, um, So what? At what stage of your transition are you at or, um, asking quite personal questions [00:04:30] about tea. What sort of changes I've had. I'm like, I know I'm not. I'm not on tea, but I probably would have had a bit more facial hair by now. Um, yeah. So they kind of expect that if you're not CIS gendered, you must be transgender. Yeah. So you reckon identity is like, tinder fluid? Uh, a lot more recent or a lot more, Um, something that younger people were free to [00:05:00] embrace. I think so. Yeah. I think, um, you see a lot of the, um a lot of the younger generation going through this I. I don't You don't see many of the older generation. And, um, have you had any, um, role models who are, um who are gender fluid or, um, kind of somewhere in that, like more in between. Eric? Um, [00:05:30] yeah, um, H is probably someone who I quite look up to for that. Um, and I know a lot of people that know H and yeah, I. I think they're They're definitely someone that's paving the path for this movement. Um, just tell us quickly who H is. OK, um, H is the education coordinator for youth, and they're absolutely awesome. [00:06:00] Um So when did you first start to become aware of? I guess you, um What was your sexual orientation? Probably first. Yeah. Yeah, um, sexual orientation was probably there were first kind of hints of it when I was in year seven. So, yeah, when I was, uh, probably 10. Yeah. Where there were just things that kind of happened, and I overreacted to stuff, and I'm like, Well, that's really strange. What? Why did I overreact [00:06:30] to that? Um, it wasn't till the year after, um when we're at camp, everyone has those camp stories. Um, and I told a friend that I thought I had a crush on someone and they completely freaked. They were like, Oh, my Gosh, it's so terrible. You can't tell anyone. Um, things went kind of down from there, um, as I tried to kind of shut that part of my life out, Um, but [00:07:00] quickly went back up again. Um, when I met a couple of other people, um, couple there with three other people, 44 other people, um, in my high school, and we started a diversity group, and we kind of just had this little network. Um, and it was good. It got better. It definitely got better towers coming up. We, um I think [00:07:30] I was really lucky. Um, Linfield College was a really, really good school for it. Uh, for me to come out both, um, sexuality wise and gender wise. Um, sexuality wise, I never had a problem. And II I couldn't really believe that I'd never had a problem. Um, I think because I was so confident with it, um, no one really questioned it. I was just the the the token lesbian. [00:08:00] I guess that, um yeah, I was quite happy to talk in assemblies or go into classrooms. And, um yeah, no. And no one ever minded there was, um what the The biggest thing for me, I think was coming out to my food technology class. Um, before we started the diversity group, and I knew that if they were OK with it, everyone else would be fine with it. So one day, when the teacher had left the room, I, um me [00:08:30] sitting alone in the corner was just like, um um, excuse me. I was I was wondering, um, what would you guys think if I started a diversity group? Um, maybe I came out as lesbian. First of them? Yeah. I must have been like, Yeah. So, um, I'm a lesbian, And I was wondering, what would you think if I started a diversity group, and then one of them was just like, Oh, my auntie's a lesbian and they were just [00:09:00] so absolutely awesome about it. Um, yeah, uh, the gender stuff that was, um, a little bit harder. Um, Luckily, our uniform, uh, they were really easy going with that. So I wore, um, guys, dress shoes, which I finally found in a size six, black dress pants, Um, my shirt and a tie. I absolutely loved my uniform. I loved being able to wear a tie. [00:09:30] Um, bathrooms. At first, I just trained myself not to go during school. Um, which wasn't always that fun. So if I was absolutely busting, I'd use the male male bathroom. I never had a problem with that. However, it was kind of Yeah, it was scary to think that that someone might have a problem with it. So, um, towards the end of my time there, um, I spoke to my dean, and she [00:10:00] said that it would be perfectly fine if I use the gender neutral, um, staff bathrooms. Um, I had three teachers who used male pronouns with me, which was absolutely amazing. Um, one that actually used it in class. And I was I was really proud of her because the the rest of the class was so confused, they were just like, Oh, my gosh. Miss Miss just called her. He Why would she do that? And I'm pretty sure they thought she was just crazy. But, [00:10:30] um yeah, um I, I guess the the whole name change didn't quite come around then. Um, I guess that was because my my friends they weren't up to it. They Yeah, it was too early for them now. Most of them have have come around, which is incredible. Um, yeah, yeah. No, it was a bit much, much of a change for them. So I decided that [00:11:00] uni would be the best time and place to do that. Um, and all all the other, um groups in the association. All the Yeah. All the other groups that I'm with, they're all on board with that now. Cool. Yeah. Um, and so at school, your teachers and stuff Did you go? Did you have to, like, go and individually talk to them about it, or Yeah, I did. And they were all incredible. I've always had a good relationship with my teachers and go, you for being [00:11:30] able to to do that. Um, So you're at uni now? Yes. Yeah. I'm about to start my second year at uni. You study, Um, I'm studying. Um, I'm doing a B A in psychology and women's studies. Um, and women's studies is soon changing to gender studies. And so I've been I've been told that I'm gonna get the choice to either stay with women studies or move to gender studies, and I think gender studies is probably [00:12:00] more appropriate for me. And so how are you finding that gender stuff at uni? It's It's OK. It's good. Um, I guess it's kind of daunting with every new tutor, um, having to, I guess, come out again to them. Um, whereas in high school, once everyone knew, they knew, Um, so that's a little bit daunting, but they're generally really good with it. [00:12:30] Um, I guess I'm also kind of tentative about the the whole, um, the role Because we always have a role in in the tutorials and the labs and so kind of like, Oh, my gosh, it is my given name going to be there, Or it is my preferred name gonna be there. And then in my in my psych class, there was another person with my given name, [00:13:00] and you never find people with my given name. And so when they call that name out, I'm like, Oh, my gosh, that's my name. Um, And so every time I was in that class, I'm like, Oh, my gosh, am I meant to answer? Um, luckily, my tutor kind of picked that up, and so she put my preferred name before so she'd know that I'd already been called out, so it couldn't be me, which was very kind of harm. Yeah, that's right. Um, do you think there was anything in particular about your high [00:13:30] school, um, or or once he started that group, that kind of, um, made it easier for you or a celebrity. Um, I think just people knowing like I didn't have to hide it or I didn't. Yeah. I didn't have to hide who I am. Um, yeah, we We were very out very out there and proud, Um, and even like on Cultural Day, we had our own store with [00:14:00] rainbow goodies. And yeah, um, how have your family been? Family has been pretty good. Um, when I first came out, um, I had been quite upset, and I remember lying in bed crying, and my mom was like, What's wrong? What's what's going on? I'm like I. I don't think I like guys. I think I like like girls. And she's like, Really, [00:14:30] That's it. That's that's what this is all about. That's it. And, um, I was just like, Oh, so you're not like mad at me or anything, and neither of my parents were mad or embarrassed or anything. I mean, I'm Dad. He looked at the positives. At least I would keep the family name because I don't have any brothers or Yeah, at least one of us would keep the family name. Um, gender identity, I thought would be harder [00:15:00] for them. Um, but they've been absolutely incredible. Um, they don't use my preferred name or male pronouns yet. Um, yeah, I've decided not to introduce that to them. However, if my mom's in my queer sphere, which would be gals outline Ram youth, um, et cetera, or around any of my, um, friends, she will use, um, preferred name and male pronouns. I feel like it is really cool. [00:15:30] Um, what's behind their decision? Not to, I guess. Kind of make them, um, use your preferred ones. Have more. Um, I don't really know. Um yeah, I. I don't know what it what it is about it. I've kind of just gotten used to They're totally different. Yeah, I Yeah, I'm I'm not 100% sure, but I, [00:16:00] I think in time it'll it'll happen. But, um, yeah, I mean, clothing wise and stuff. They're They're absolutely fantastic. I remember going with mum for the first time, buying guys clothes from the guys section. And I thought it was gonna be like, a really scary, daunting thing. And I'm like, Mom, it's time. I need to do this. And she's like, OK, cool. Let's go. [00:16:30] Yeah, or or buying guys. Um, underwear. For the first time, it was so scary. And then I got there, and I'm like, Oh, my gosh, I'm so happy about this. And now it's so normal. Um, the only not so good thing about that is when dad's like, Oh, my gosh, these underwear are so tight, they must have shrunk like No, Dad, those are mine. And he's like, Oh, that makes sense. That's a great story. And unfortunately, that's happened more than once. [00:17:00] So would you see yourself as a minority within the Queer Trans community? Um, yeah, I think so. Um, with with, I guess, gender wise. Yeah, Although I within Rainbow youth there there are. There are heaps of us. There are heaps of people that are non conforming to yeah, even even gender roles and gender. Everything, I guess. Um but I don't feel [00:17:30] like a minority. Yeah. So, for instance, in gals. Um What's gals? Oh, gay and lesbian singers. So, um yeah, the queer choir. Um, I Yeah, I don't I don't feel like a minority. Even though I'm there's there's very few of us, um, who are, um, gender diverse. Um, but everyone kind of just treats me as the kid of the group and that that's the only [00:18:00] way I get treated differently because I'm the youngest. So I feel like you've got kind of a community, both a community and a community that supports you. Yeah. Yeah. No I. I feel, um, generally really accepted. And, um, in the queer community, the only place where I was really excited to explore. Um, I guess when I was younger Now, now I'm 18, so I can kind [00:18:30] of actually explore more of the queer community. Um, was it was the lesbian community, but now I don't fully feel a part of it, which, um, kind of sucks, But I guess there I found other places to go. Um, so, like, uh, bikes on mics or, um, lesbians and just stuff like that or even the lesbian ball? I don't know how comfortable I would feel [00:19:00] going to those places. Um, because I know that the lesbian community is really quite tight knit, and I totally respect that. They want to keep it. Women that love women. Um, but yeah. So it's it's kind of, I don't know, a bit of a dilemma. And you probably I guess your gender would get my if you did go into with those kinds of space. Yeah, like, yeah, what are some of the, um, kind [00:19:30] of biggest challenges you face being 10? Um, I think this is quite common for gender flu people's bathrooms. Um, especially public public bathrooms. So I If I walk into a woman's bathroom, then if someone's walking I've had this a couple of times. Someone's walking out. I'm walk. Oh, no, no. I'm walking out and they're walking in. Then they'll stop. Look at the sign, look at me and then carry [00:20:00] walking in. Um, yeah, and so it's like, Oh, I probably made them feel rather uncomfortable. Um, whereas yeah, and if I go into the guy's bathroom, it's always kind of a little bit scary. Um, kind of break out in a bit of a sweat. Oh, my gosh. They're gonna They're gonna know that I'm not genetically male. And what What are they going to do? Um, I've never I've never had any problems in the guy's bathroom, though, Which is quite lucky, [00:20:30] I guess. Um, yeah, I. I guess making people feel uncomfortable is one of the worst things. Um, so I I was happily bouncing down the bouncing down up stairs, and, um, one of the people that work there was like, Good morning, sir. And when I get surprised or when I talk louder, obviously, um, I my voice goes higher. And so I'm like, Good morning. And he's like, Oh, my [00:21:00] gosh, I'm I'm so sorry, ma'am. And I'm like, No, no, no, it was fine. It was It was a compliment. All good. All good. Um, so, yeah, just stuff like that, where it's it's great that they recognise me for the I guess the gender at that point that I more identify with, um however, then there are sudden like, Oh, moment. I'm like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's OK. Don't worry. Um, or that also comes with the I hate. [00:21:30] Um, So Saturday night I was walking alone, um, just out out of the gala What's the gala? The Pride gala. So the the fabulous opening of Pride Month. Um, and suddenly I had this this guy yelling out at, um, yelling out profanities at me and that had never happened to me before. Um, it was it was clear he thought I was a gay guy because I don't think you call lesbian a fag, but, [00:22:00] um, yeah, that was not fun. Um, that was that's luckily the only time that's ever happened to me. But I'm sure it's gonna happen more in the future, because that's just what happens. I guess which really sucks. How do you feel about, um, the way I guess people in our community are represented in the media. And do you ever see that your identity is reflected? Um, and that that might be TV [00:22:30] books. Movies. Can't see anything. Um, I don't I don't know. I don't, um I guess I don't really watch a lot of TV. Um, I did, however, like orphan black, and I liked how they had, um a couple of LGBT characters. Um, [00:23:00] yes, that was That was pretty cool to see a trans guy on it. Um, other than that I I don't recall seeing a lot of people that I kind of click with or think like, Yeah, that that that's That's totally how I feel That's that's totally who I am. Um, yeah, probably the closest in a book, um, again, not not much of a reader, but the closest book. [00:23:30] I don't remember the book's name or who it was by, um, but they the whole way through they only used, um, gender neutral pronouns, which was very exciting, like Oh, my gosh, they're actually using it. It's correct. And no one can tell me it's not correct because it's in a book. What would you like to see in the media or what could be done? Better? Um, I guess representation. And at the same time, [00:24:00] um, there's everyone is so unique and everyone is such an individual that I think it would be hard to hard to represent everyone in some way. Um, even with within the trans community, everyone's so different. Um, yeah. Um, what do you see as some of the, [00:24:30] um, the biggest issues in the current Chinese community in New Zealand at the moment, I think schools still need to be addressed um, I think I was very lucky. Um, however, every time I, um I'm with a group of people and we talk about schools, I'm one of the very few that I hear that have positive stories about it. Um, and I would really like for my [00:25:00] story to be more common. Um, but there are a lot more positives than negatives, and I think that's just in society as well. Um, that people become more accepting and I. I think that's that's a time thing. And it's a generational thing. And it's it's an ignorance thing that that people are scared of. What they don't know. Um and [00:25:30] so yeah, an education thing. But But mostly I think it will come with time. As most things seem to, um, if you could give a message to a young ginger fluid, um, person and maybe go through some things that you went through Well, what would it be? Just be yourself. Go with what feels right. And, um yeah, don't listen to other people say, because [00:26:00] they don't They don't know you. Um, you know yourself best and, um, seems rather cliche, but it gets better. Yeah, the more you get to know yourself. And the more you come to understand it, um, even if it doesn't make sense and you're like, Oh, my gosh, what on earth is going on? Um, eventually, it makes sense. And if it doesn't make sense, then you come to accept that and cherish that about yourself. Hm. [00:26:30] And and what's your favourite thing about being a young trans Trans? And you get used to it? And, um, I guess that I can people and that, Yeah, they they kind of are like, Oh, my gosh, what on earth is that? And it's like you. You can just be yourself and you can just make things up if you don't fit because you don't have to fit into a shiny box. Um, you don't really get taught that growing [00:27:00] up. Um, but you don't have to. You really don't have to fit into a shiny box. Just make your own.

IRN: 846
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_rainbows_charlie.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004338
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089632
TITLE: Charlie - Beyond Rainbows
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Ara Taiohi; Beyond Rainbows (series); China; Elementary (tv); Gender Flux (USA); Lucy Liu; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Orange Is the New Black (tv); Osric Chau; School's Out (Wellington); Tabby Besley; Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington; University of Auckland; Vietnam; Wellington; Youth Infusion (Hutt City); advice; bathrooms; children; coming out; community; culture; depression; endocrinologist; ethnicity; family; fear; gender; gender identity; growing up; hate crime; heteronormativity; hormone blockers; hormone replacement therapy (HRT); identity; internet; marriage; marriage equality; media; mental health; mental illness; name change; non-binary; parents; passing; pronouns; queer; relationships; representation; school; sexualisation; tattoo; trans awareness; transgender; transphobia; tumblr. com; university; youth
DATE: 28 January 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Charlie talks about identifying as a non-binary guy.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How do you describe your identity? Um, I'm running with non binary guys. That's what I'm running with at the moment. What does that mean to you? Well, I still pretty much identify as a guy, but like all I be like, it basically comes down to I don't like female pronouns at all. It just doesn't fit with me at all, and it just feels wrong. But then, like also like, I don't want to be, like, conform to what a guy has to wear, either. So I want to be like a feminine [00:00:30] guy or if I want to wear skirts and I want to do that and still be a guy. But yeah, what was your kind of journey to figuring out like that? I guess it's the whole cliche thing when you're younger, but like I feel like I probably had, like, inklings and like, just over time, like more exposure exposure as I got older and like realising. Actually, there's queer people, and there's like it's not just, you know, it's not just something that's on TV and, like, uh, it's [00:01:00] like there's like a lot of people who are actually queer and trans and like I didn't realise that. And, like, started going to schools out. And, like I had a friend who was queer. Who, Um, I met at, um, youth infusion, and they got me going to schools out and like, it kind of took me a while to come to terms or, like, just figure out. Actually, I might not identify as this. Um um what was it like doing that while you were at school? Um, [00:01:30] it was really difficult. I mean, you're dealing with high school stuff. I mean, it's a lot easier now that you're at uni, because it's no one really cares. But in high school, it's like everyone knows who you are. And you've grown up with them kind of along like those, like, you've gone through all this stuff together. So everyone kind of knows and yeah, I just feel like you didn't have any privacy. Hm. Ok, um, what people phobic to you at all? Um [00:02:00] I mean, um, in high school, I think I just thought I was a lesbian, like, just going with the stereotypes. I mean, like, after I shaved my head, I didn't keep it long again. Like that was one of the probably the first steps I did, and, like I like, started wearing trousers and stuff. And, um, there might have been stuff going on behind my back, but not that I heard of them. Um, was it frustrating kind of thing, like a lesbian [00:02:30] when that wasn't how you identify? Yeah, it was. And I was also annoying because I had, like, another queer guy at my school who like, instead of asking me because I he was in my year group and I knew him, he asked. My best friend, like you know, is blah, blah, blah, a lesbian. And I'm just I was really confused because I'm like, you could ask me rather than asking from my friend. How's your family been? Um, I think it's been hard for them. I haven't actually come out to them [00:03:00] yet. I think Mum kind of has an idea. I mean, they always kind of joke around like, Oh, you look like such a boy bla bla bla bla. I think they think it's more along the lesbian lines as well, or like I'm queer. But like I think they also think it might be like I think they're realising now it's not a phase, and I think Mum's gotten a lot better about it because she just wants me to be happy. But from what I've heard from my sister, she also thinks because I'm just feeling more masculine, that it's like the It's what's making me depressed and stuff [00:03:30] That's so strange, I don't know, Like I heard from her a while ago. This was a couple of years, like she still thought mental illness was like a disease like that's how bad it was. Um, so do they use you like old names? And I'm hoping to come out to them eventually. Well, I'm moving out soon, and that should kickstart a lot of things, and I'm gonna start hormones. So yeah, and [00:04:00] how's the process to starting hormones been? I haven't started yet, but I'm starting next month of February, which is exciting. So I'm really excited. So I'm excited for my voice to drop, and I'll feel like I'll pass more or like, I'll feel like I won't get misgender as much. And I'm really excited that, like about the body changes and so like, I'll get more like a shapely drawer and stuff, so I think that'll be exciting. And what was the process to get approved to go on? Hormones likely? Um, [00:04:30] I had to wait ages for the Endo appointment, and the appointment was pretty cool. It was lovely. And like he and like, it was kind of reassuring that at the end he was just like, I don't care how masculine or feminine you look at the end of it, just as long as you're happy. And that meant a lot. You know, that must feel like kind of big thing to do with, like, your parents knowing, does it? Yeah. I mean, I feel like I feel conflicted in a sense, because, like, recently, my [00:05:00] relationship with my mom's gotten a lot better and I don't want to feel like a wrench in it kind of a thing. But then I feel like I guess I kind of feel like a kid. Still like Like, I feel like I need their permission. But I also know I don't just because I know it's what I need to do. Like my siblings are like super supportive and like so they know. So, yeah, it sounds like your parents probably have an inkling. I think it's like a journey to accepting it. Yeah, Yeah. I don't know what Dad thinks. He doesn't actually say anything at all. But Mum, [00:05:30] Mum's been good. I mean, she's we're compromising at the moment. Do you remember kind of any, like, messages from from your family or society or the media or anything about kind of friends, people before or like, you got involved in the community? Like, I think it was really heteronormative. So, like, it was just assumed you're a hetero and like, my parents were always like, you're gonna marry a guy. One day you're gonna have kids and you're gonna have the whole whole apple pie life [00:06:00] kind of the thing. And, like, I mean, when they're dressing like, you know, when you're younger, it's always just kind of kind of feminine stuff. And like, I feel like the more like I try to change like it's kind of weird because of the Asian parents. I feel like they kind of mould you into this thing that they want, and they kind of push all their hopes and dreams on you kind of the thing. Like I've talked to other friends about and they kind of agree. But I feel like Mum just kind of wanted us to be like what she was. And so I feel like I'm probably a constant disappointment to her. [00:06:30] Um, whereabouts in Asia are your family from, Um, I think Mum's from like Guangzhou and Dad was from Vietnam or like he still identifies as Chinese rather than Vietnamese, even though you can speak Vietnamese like they're more Chinese than Vietnamese. Have you had any kind of role models or, um, people in the media or, um, anyone who are as that you can relate to? In that way, [00:07:00] it's been difficult in that sense, just like even within the queer community, like, I didn't really know anyone who was like Asian or pretty much not European like everyone I saw, like, even in like, media was like. But like I have a couple of role models, even though they're not queer and stuff like I really like And he's like O chow. He's cool and, like he does a lot of cosplayers, and he's like seems to be exploring his whole gender and stuff. So he like cosplay a, um Ariel, the other day, like, you know, from the Little Mermaid. [00:07:30] And that was really cute. I also really like Lucy Lo. That would be awesome. Cool. So, in terms of, like, media representation, um, have you ever kind of seen any parts of your identity? Like reflected? Like, Mm. I can't really say I have, But like with orange is the new black. It's been really good for representation and, like, it's really good. Like, I don't really see much trans representation that isn't seen as [00:08:00] like it isn't quite accurate. Like, I mean, orange is the new Black is an elementary as a trans woman as well, But, like, I just feel like most of the time, like people play it off as, like, a guy just cross dressing or something, you know? Yeah. And have you seen any kind of trans masculine representation? I don't I can't say I really have. And like the ones that I have heard about seem to be like they end up dying or something. Um, [00:08:30] what would you like to see? More of in the media, I guess. More like a lot of positive messages. And, like you can be trans and have a normal life kind of the thing. It's not like it's gonna like. I know there's gonna be bad. And there is hate crimes and stuff that I also need to know that it can be good. Like, I think that's really hard just knowing that you can, like, live as Trans and you know, like you don't want to live in fear of who like being who you are every day. [00:09:00] Was it hard for you when you were kind of, um, starting to realise that you train coming out because there weren't so many like role models or, yeah, people like you. I think I was quite scared, to be honest. And I mean, like, most of the stuff I hear about Trans people like in the like in the News and stuff is like blah, blah, blah has been murdered or a hate crime, and it's just like, Well, this is not optimistic or hopeful. [00:09:30] Yeah, but I think it's gotten better in recent years. I mean, there's a lot more representation in, like the media and TV shows, and I like I'm starting to feel a bit more hopeful, but like we definitely need more trans representation and just queer as well. And like, Oh, my God. Like non sexualized lesbians. Like What do you mean by that? Uh, just, uh, sometimes. Like when? Uh uh, just, uh, some TV [00:10:00] shows so bad. Um, so do you see yourself as a minority within the minority of the community? A little bit like, I mean, I didn't really know anyone else who was Trans That wasn't European and like so I couldn't talk to them about the cultural background of stuff like, I was really interested about it. And like, I met someone who was a bit older than me, and he was really [00:10:30] lovely and like it was really good because we got to, like, have a good chat about our cultural backgrounds and stuff because I feel like that's really important. Just because if you're not within kind of the ethnic group, you won't you don't You can't understand completely because you didn't grow up in that environment. And you don't have that background knowledge of, like, the traditions and stuff which are, like, ingrained in you kind of a thing. So do you think, um, like, with your family compared to, um, like a European family. It's, um there's a lot more of that kind of like [00:11:00] pressure and expectation that you're gonna, like, marry a man and all that kind of stuff. Um, I think it's kind of equal in that sense, but I feel like just within the Asian community, it's a lot like there's a whole lot of stuff about like like Asian parents, like have, like this thing where they have, like, a reputation or something or they have a front and they have to make sure everything's OK. So, like, I'm pretty sure, I'm sure most European families are also like, you know, don't talk like they might keep things harsh, harsh, But I feel like [00:11:30] in the Asian community, it's very harsh, harsh, like it's like it's kind of like Taboo, like mental illness and being queer and trans and all that stuff like it's just not talked about. And if it does happen, they just kind of have this deniability kind of a thing where they're like Nope, nope. Nope. Nope, nope. Nope. I can't see this. No, nope. Still refers to the person as the name and like, ignores their partner or whatever. And like just even without, like, I know with my grandma on my dad's side. Like even [00:12:00] when my cousin, like she was really close to her. But when she started dating like a European guy, they kind of had, like, this distance group between them. So, like, I guess it's kind of that as well. So it probably would have been really helpful if you'd had more kind of, um, like, quarantine Asian people in your life when you were coming out. I think so because it kind of made me feel like a bit like an alien, because I'm like, I don't like it just made me feel odd out kind of thing, not knowing anyone or like seeing anyone like it was all like, European people. [00:12:30] And, like, I just yeah, representation is important. So this, um, going on to schools out and kind of finding that, um, that community, even though it probably wasn't ideal, was that still, um, helpful? I think so. Yeah. It was good. Like I learned more in that time, I think, and it was really good and just meeting other people in the community and, like just having people understand where you're coming from, is good. Like most of my friends wouldn't understand. Exactly. [00:13:00] Or like, they wouldn't. Yeah, they just wouldn't know. Like the thought process and stuff. Yeah. Is it so important to you to have that kind of effect to the community? I think so, Yeah. I mean, I think I miss it sometimes because sometimes when I'm with my friends like, they won't completely understand what I'm going through, but they'll they'll definitely try to be supportive. But I think it would be nice to get you involved with the community. And have you been [00:13:30] part of? I mean, kind of online communities much or is the Internet being something that's on social media? Helps you kind of at all in your journey? Um, probably a little bit. Tumbler is really good. It's been helpful. Oh, like it helped me realise I was OK and stuff and just meeting like just seeing, Like, other teens and stuff. They were, like, trans and queer as well, like, and seeing their stories was nice, you know, like just like even on a global [00:14:00] scale. What do you think are some of the most important issues? Kind of, um, that you face or that you think our community faces. Personally, I feel like I just kind of struggle with the bathroom issue like and sometimes just the questions I get asked like even if they mean well or whatever. Like sometimes I'm not completely comfortable. It just kind of depends what space I'm in. Um, I think definitely [00:14:30] more education for like everyone. Like Like, I think it'll be easier sometimes if there was just like a mini pamphlet of, like, everything you need to know. And then if someone just asked you about it, you just whip it out So you don't have to educate every person you meet because I got really tired of doing that because it just at one point it was like every person I've met, it's like I have to come out and I have to explain everything. And I was just like that. And it just gets to this point where I just kind of get really tired and just yeah, [00:15:00] stopped meeting new people for a while. Hm. And that's just the expectation that you but you owe them that. Hey, like they feel they feel like you have to tell them that information that it is, um, I haven't had any really gross questions about, like, surgery and stuff, which is nice. Um, it is annoying when you're trying to, like, tell someone about, like, like, about yourself and how you identify and stuff. And they're like, what? Or like [00:15:30] they, like, deny it. And it's just like, I don't understand. This is me. Um, I don't think you know myself better than I do at the start. Um, you were talking about kind of how, like, when you're kind of identifying as like, um, like a non-binary man, Um, like, about how you want to still be able to, like, express yourself in, like, feminine ways as a man. Yeah. Um, is is that something that you see reflected? I guess in society like that, it's OK [00:16:00] to be like a feminine man. No, not much. But like, there's this one person who, um I follow it, I think they're in America. I think they're Alexander, but they're really cool. And they're just They started this project called Gender Flux, I think, and so it's just been kind of like, you know, going outside the tradition, like what society thinks is, like, normal or like, you know, And so like it's been cool. They did like a whole project on it, and that was [00:16:30] it was good to see. And sometimes I feel like even within the community and sometimes, like if you're Trans, you have to be masculine and you know, like it's still that expectation and you wouldn't expect it from the community. But I still kind of feel that pressure. Sometimes if you're gonna be Trans, you have to be a like you have to be, like, really feminine or really masculine. You can't be a mix or whatever. If you could give a message to, um I guess kind of like a younger self or like um, another, like [00:17:00] young, kind of trans Mexican Asian person. What would you say to them? They're kind of struggling in their teens. I guess I'd reassure them that it's OK. It's normal that you feel this way and it's OK if you think you are well, not Trans. I mean, it's OK. You can express your gender however you want, and I mean, I've been told this a lot recently. Bottom line, your parents will still see you as their child, and they'll still love you at the end of the day, and you [00:17:30] are separate from your parent, and you just gotta do what's good for you and what makes you happy. In the end, do you want to tell me a little bit more about what it's like? Um, being clean at uni? Um, being trans at uni has been quite. It's been easier than at high school, because in high school in my last year, it was only when I really decided to do a lot of changes and, like a few teachers like, I came out to one of my teachers and she was on our senior dean, and she she'd occasionally call me Charlie, which was great [00:18:00] and like at uni, you can shut down your preferred name. But I feel a bit disappointed with Vic just because I feel like Auckland has set the standard. Now what have I done? Well, they're paying for their trans students to get their names and like passports and everything legally changed because they know that some students are not financially able to, and they're also trying to protect their trans students because they are getting bullied and stuff like that which I thought was really good. But I'm pretty sure Vic doesn't have bullying and stuff. But I just [00:18:30] feel like they could do more in terms of the name changes just because I've checked my preferred name on the role and they said it should be popping up. But from my experience last year, it didn't pop up at all, and I still had to manually sign my preferred name on every tutorial and lecture. Or I'd have to go up to the lecturer and tell them if I like. If it was one of those marked role classes and like, um, I kind of talked to them earlier this year about it and they said, Well, it should be popping up on the role. So I went to see [00:19:00] enrollment about it, and they can't really do much. And I just feel kind of disappointed because it still seems I have to go up to my lecturers at the end and tell them about it. And I feel like there's no point in doing that. If I have my preferred name there, like, what's the point in it at all? Yeah, that's not really good enough. No, and when I asked, I said, Well, we kind of need you to do something about it as well, like change your name and not everyone's financially able But I think, Well, I have a job at the moment, [00:19:30] so I think I should be able to. But just for other students that aren't it's just kind of hard, I guess. Like I mean Auckland's backing up their students, so I don't see why isn't hopefully it will set that kind of another university. Yeah, there's a lot of like financial barriers for people. Yeah, I think Auckland did like it set the bar, but they also took like, a big, big step. And it's important [00:20:00] because, I mean, it sets an example to the rest of the country kind of the thing. So it's important that, like, you know, even at uni, it's being recognised like I mean, it means colleges like high schools can, like, set the bar as well like that and do more. They can't just be like, Well, we can't do anything about it and kind of be apathetic. I mean, if a university can do this, I don't see why high school can't protect like their birth name and stuff like that and just yeah, it [00:20:30] just feels like more could be done before you mentioned like bathrooms. Bathroom. Sorry. Is something you struggle with that is that kind of an issue at uni or is that I still get really nervous going to the bathrooms. And when I first went to uni like an orientation week, I didn't I would have to use one of the bathrooms until I finally asked one of the people at the Queer Booth And they're like, Oh, we should have some gender neutral ones. Like they didn't have any signs. It was just toilets, um, around. But there aren't that many. Like I know [00:21:00] in the older buildings, it's just female and male. But, you know, the rest of the time I think there are some, but they still have mostly female and male. And are there many other friends, like students or like staff who were kind of out? Or is there like, a community thing? Um, I wasn't really, really involved with the uni activities this last year. Um, I know one of the people, [00:21:30] um, can't remember, but she was like the head of something the magazine or something was openly queer, and that was really cool. I'm pretty sure everyone's really openly queer and trans, or like, probably queer at uni like it's not a problem. Um, I don't know any lecturers that are, but yeah, I think everyone's quite open about who they are, which is nice. Um, [00:22:00] what are your dreams for your future? Um, I've only really gotten as far as moving out, Probably getting some more tattoos. I'm coming out to my parents at some point, but I'm definitely looking forward to the journey of hormones. And I'm thinking of doing like, a little, I don't know, maybe a blog and seeing how I go about it as I transition, So yeah, OK, I guess. Like, just another thing that kind of worried me about being Trans was like [00:22:30] I mean, like potential. Like, if I wanted to be in a relationship, would that be really complicated? Um, I think I've just gone to the stage where if they like me, they like me as who I am, and if they don't? Well, too bad, and they're missing out or something like that, but yeah. Um, do you mean it? be complicated in terms of, um, like, having to come out? I think so, Yeah. Or, um, because I was seeing someone while I was in the stages of transitioning, [00:23:00] and they weren't sure about what they'd do if I went on hormones. And that was kind of complicated. And there was all these other stuff going on at the time, but, yeah, it didn't work out, so I don't know. I just think it'd be complicated, but I think it'll be OK. Are you interested in, like, having family, or like getting married or any of that kind of stuff? Um, I don't really see myself settling down. Um, I do not like kids. I do not want kids. [00:23:30] Um, if my partner, if I had a partner wanted kids, um, I'd have to have a very deep, long conversation with them and see how it goes. And yeah, I I'd have to think about it. It wouldn't be one of those, even. Yeah, I'm not sure about getting married either. Um, did the marriage equality bill passing have any meaning or effect to you? Um, I definitely, [00:24:00] um, appreciated that it passed. It was important, like, uh, it was like one of the milestones to letting queer people in New Zealand realise it's OK. It's accepted. And like I think it's exciting that we're like the first in the Pacific region to legalise, um, marriage, equality, and I think that's really important. What changes would you like to see? Um, I guess more trans awareness and more stuff done about that. [00:24:30] I mean, I'm I'm still trying to figure out all the stuff, like how to change my name legally, and that's kind of complicated, but I think I'm just dumb. So but it would be good if there was more if that stuff, you know, if it wasn't like something we had to go and like, figure out ourselves. I mean, it was like, really easy. Um, like it's like if there was, like, a little sub section in the website like, if you are wondering your legal like if it's like your legal [00:25:00] writers, um blah, blah, blah, blah and stuff like that. I mean, if it was like a subsection like that, it'd be helpful, like, yeah, on what to do if we're being discriminated against and stuff just kind of like an easy guide how to That'd be cool. Yeah, what's your favourite thing about being a young trans person in New Zealand? Um, in the young aspect. I mean, everything's kind of exciting and new. Studying [00:25:30] is quite cool, and the people I've met has been amazing. Like it, you know, young and trans. Um, yeah, it's been good meeting other people my age that are transitioning or have transitioned and like it like it's it's nice to know you're not the only one kind of the same and like, it's not just it's it means something when they're within your age group because you can relate to them and stuff. I mean, probably the older people are the bias and stuff, but it's yeah, it's good [00:26:00] to have other people your age.

IRN: 845
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_rainbows_nathaniel.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004337
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089631
TITLE: Nathaniel - Beyond Rainbows
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Ara Taiohi; Beyond Rainbows (series); Glee (tv); Hui Takatāpui; Hui Takatāpui (2014); Lower Hutt; Māori; Orange Is the New Black (tv); School's Out (Lower Hutt); School's Out (Wellington); Tabby Besley; Tāmati Coffey; Tīwhanawhana; University of Auckland; Upper Hutt; Wellington; Wellington High School; coming out; community; culture; dating; disability; education; friends; funding; gender identity; hapu; history; hormone blockers; hormone replacement therapy (HRT); identity; iwi; media; name change; non-binary; queer; relationships; representation; school; sex education; stereotypes; surgery; takatāpui; transgender; transphobia; whitewash; youth
DATE: 28 January 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Nathaniel talks about identifying as a takatāpui trans man.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How would you describe your identity? Uh, male. Just that. That's just it. Yeah. I just so happen to be a trans male. Yep. Awesome. Wait. Does that identity mean in another sense, like anything? Yeah. Any words you might use to describe your identity? Well, identify as Maori before anything else. Yeah. Cool. Um, when did you first become aware that you were in late [00:00:30] 2011 and, Yeah, I had met first person in Wellington after someone had told me about schools out, and I was like, Oh, who are they? And they were like, Oh, yeah, that's this person. And they're that. And I was like, Oh, wow, I think I'm that And, um, yeah, I kind of went on a travelling bit of figuring out who I was for the past, Like a year [00:01:00] or so and then? Yeah, kind of stuck with it now. So did you feel like, um, either or both of those identities, um, make you a minority within in the queer community? Um, I guess so. Y. Yeah. Kind of probably being Is there much of a community? Um so I I didn't know that many until, uh, just [00:01:30] this year when I had attended, which was one of the best experiences of my life. Um, and I met some amazing people, even even people from my own, And, um, they were amazing and yeah, yeah, So there is, um Do you want to tell me a bit more about your experience there and why that was so, um oh, God, it was It was very important to me because as growing up, I didn't. And as a Maori person growing up [00:02:00] I, I didn't know that as a queer person as well, I had a place inside my own culture I had never heard about, you know, a gay Maori person. Other than that, what now, presenter? What's his name? Tea. Coffee. And I knew him for so long. But I just thought that he was the only person. He was the only Maori gay person I ever knew. And I was like, Wow, wow, what happened to him, like, what did they do? And yeah, and, [00:02:30] um, just the experience was amazing, because I got to meet so many people who had gone through the same exact thing and just everyone coming together and and yeah, just learning a bit more about my own culture as well and and myself and and identifying as Tau Now instead of just something else. What does that word mean to you? It means it means being Maori before queer is what I think, [00:03:00] you know. And then kind of presenting yourself as Maori and then, you know, on the side you're queer, you know, or just, um Yeah, that's kind of what it means to me. And just like the history of queer people within my culture and taking on that role and stuff like that. Is it important to you that there is that that history, though, and finding the hell Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely finding it was a or find going on that journey now is [00:03:30] one of the best experiences ever. And I feel so great within myself now and better than ever, to be honest. Yeah. How are you feeling before you kind of found that community and kind of learned about that? Oh, I kind of lost a because I never I was very I don't know what you kind of say, Like, I'm kind of whitewashed when I grew up. I didn't properly know that II. I knew that I was Maori and I knew that I was brown. But like [00:04:00] I didn't know No, you know, I was like, Oh, I can do all of these things and all of these, these kinds of stuff and and and not have, like, repercussions or whatever. I'm going off on a tangent. Um, I just No, I just didn't know that I was not that I had a culture that I could grasp and take and learn from. And now that I know that it's there for me, I'm willing to jump in and just grab it like, yeah, that's mine. Are there any like, particular ways [00:04:30] that you're like doing that? Like, um, I'm definitely keeping in contact with people from, um and yeah, going on with that and and stuff like that. And also, I met some people there who invited me to a Kapa Haka group called in Wellington. And, um, it's a Tai Kaha group. And I was very, very happy about that because actually growing up, I never did Kapa haa because I thought it was stupid. And, you know, I thought [00:05:00] everything about my culture was stupid. And now I just love it completely. And to I went there a couple of times and, um, yeah, I absolutely adore it, and I'm going back. What has it been like being like a trans man in the community? And have you had many kind of role models or many other, um, trans men or I have not met very many like, um, trans [00:05:30] men. But then within the community, Um, actually, it's really sad. I can't recall a person I've met. That's was I have heard of people, but I actually haven't met them yet. So hm. Do you feel like that's something that that kind of representation or knowing of other people like, Do you feel like that's, um, something missing, or would it be important to you to have, um, I feel like it would be important, But to be honest, for now, I am just happy [00:06:00] being around, uh, anyone, any people within the community that have stories to tell and you know, things to teach me. And that's I think that's enough for me. Yeah. Um, do you think maybe your like story and your journey could be kind of, um, awesome for other young um Maori men. Oh, I hope so. But I've got a I've got a few more stories to live myself before. Um, I think, uh, you know, they should [00:06:30] be told a bit a bit too young right now, but, um, yeah, no, that'd be awesome. What do you think about, um, the way? I guess we were represented in the media, but particularly, um mm. Maybe people that you might be able to relate to 00, God. Well, I can think colours orange is the new black right now. Um, [00:07:00] I think I think it's OK. I'm not saying it's good. It's not even average, but it's OK, but, you know, we start from here and we go further on, and that's just kind of how it goes. But I don't know. I can't really think of anyone that I could relate to on television or on any type of show right now, but that's OK. I watch shitty shows. [00:07:30] Um, yeah. No, it's OK. I hope that it does get better, to be honest, because that'd be great for people. I mean, I did hear about this new Glee trans character which everyone is very mad about. I believe it sounds like they got a little bit lazy, and that's kind of where it's just OK. It's It's OK. It's not good. It's not bad. It's also not average, but yeah, I'd want it to get better. What would you like to see? More of [00:08:00] just doing like characters and not, like, not like the normal kind of queer characters that you'd see like rich or middle class and being able to go through the entire world and still be a bit awesome. But, you know, the real type of queers. Do you know what I mean? Like people who who who suffer but also people who don't and people who have gone through a lot of shit and disabled [00:08:30] people just, you know, anything would be I'd love to see that I would love to see people like me. I'd love to see people like my friends, you know, And yeah, So you kind of talked about, um, like the community and that existing thing quite important for you, um is generally being part of some kind of queer community or as you were coming out. Was that quite important for you? It has always been important to me. Um, as soon as I as soon as [00:09:00] I was a young queer, and I found out that there was a place that I could go where it would be safe for me. And although it was scary to hear about it and be like, Oh, what if there's someone there that I know that could tell anyone? But that never happened. And as soon as I went into the space and it was amazing and everyone was absolutely nice, it's always been a part of my life, and it will always be a part of my life. I. I have to be a part of this community. Push myself in [00:09:30] like, yeah, this is It's it's it's the I think it's just the best part of my life so far as being a part of the community in Wellington. Yeah. So, um and how did you find that community? Or like, have you, um, has it been through, like, groups or events or online or friends, or do you mean how I got into it or something like that? Yeah, Well, I got into it through schools out, so [00:10:00] yeah, through schools, schools out and kind of just met people through there and kept on going and kept on going. And then everyone's just meeting everyone and going other places and going to and, you know, and and stuff like that and that's that's really how it started. It started the schools out. I actually know I did it. Oh, no, I'm wrong. No, no. I started at my first, Um my my schools Queer Group. If you could call it that, it was like two [00:10:30] people, and it only lasted about three months, but they had known about a place called Schools Out. And I had gone out of my way to go and find it. And so I did. I started off, actually at the lower hut schools out. And then they told me that there was one in Wellington and I was like, I'm out of here and I went and started going to Wellington, and then I would actually travel from Upper hut after school all the way into Wellington because I loved the people more in Wellington more [00:11:00] and I'll come in here and hang out and have some food and then go get a coffee and then just take a train back on home and Yeah, And how old were you when you were? Um Oh, I must have been 15. 15? No, I might have been younger. 14 Just turned 15, maybe. Yeah, something around that kind of area. Yeah. Um, so finding that community must have been quite helpful in terms of [00:11:30] your kind of, I guess figuring out your identity and Oh, hell, yeah, yeah. I mean, I. I mean, I started I started off with the quick community as someone completely different than who I am today. Um, and yeah, just as soon as I started meeting like trans people and and, um gender queer people and, um, and basically not binary people. Um, I just kept changing my identities, and I went all the way on down the track, and then we found the right one and [00:12:00] just got there. What was it, um, like for you figuring out and transitioning while at school and with your family? Uh, it was it was confusing. But the thing is, is that I kind of made it a bit easier for myself as I As soon as I found out that I was Trans, I was having a bit of a hard time and I was thinking I was in year 12 at school, and, uh so I left. I left and I went to a different high school in Wellington. I made a slide show [00:12:30] for my parents to make them so that I could go and, um, they it took them about a week to come around because I pushed it in their face. I was like, Let me go. I heard about Wellington High School and I was like, They're so amazing and everyone's awesome. And as soon as I got there, everyone was awesome. It was an amazing school, and that made it definitely easier because I went from identifying as a person in a stupid college in Al Hut, um, [00:13:00] to identifying as who I wanted to be And, um, once I was in high school. But that was the hardest year of my life, definitely for my parents, because not only was I learning somewhere else, I was, you know, completely changed. I changed my name on the role without telling them, and they found out, and I just remember this day where they found out and they my my father had come in to talk to the dean about changing it. And, [00:13:30] um, one of the, um, deputy principals. She was amazing. She was actually, uh, queer as well. And, um, she she was She told the dean and I heard from him that she was going to have a go at my father about changing my name. And that's just how amazing they were. They did. They did. They went out of their way to help me. And even though they had to change my name on the role because of my parents, um, because I was under 16 at the time. No, no, Sorry. I was under 18. [00:14:00] My bad. Um, I had to listen to them. They went out of their way to scrub out my name with a vivid my old name with a vivid and then put my actual name on for other teachers that would come in and and just when they would print up roles and you could take off your name and it was amazing of them. Were there other train students or like a queer community at the school? Yes, there was. Yes, There were a couple of other trans people which made it awesome. Um, both of them were well known, though, [00:14:30] Um, without the school, Um, I was not, but, um, it had come out during the year, and that was something that I didn't want, but it happened because stuff ups had come up on the rolls and stuff like that. But, um, I think I just got through it because people kind of were just like, why should we give a shit? But some people are like, Ha, ha. This is weird. And then, you know, it just hung around with people who, like, who gives a shit. [00:15:00] Yeah. So have you experienced much transphobia? Um, not that much. No, I can't say I have that much. I think the hardest thing is always coming out to people that you are dating and seeing their response. That's the scariest thing in the entire world. And especially since, um uh, II, I think at a point in the last year I tried [00:15:30] to I started dating people outside of the queer community. And, um, yeah, that was scariest thing in my entire life. I had to know that they had at least one queer friend, so that was OK But, um no, not not too much, really. Only from family members and and stuff like that. And the rest. I've always surrounded myself with people that I know will be amazing. Do you have any other? Any advice for other trans [00:16:00] people facing that dilemma of telling people that they're dating? So something comes up, you just need to snap and do it like don't don't do it. Don't ever do it face to face. I people might tell you that, but I have never, ever done it face to face, mostly because of violence issues. And, um, just, you know, you could get punched. No matter what sexuality you are, violence can happen and shutting. And, you know, it depends on [00:16:30] who the type of person you are. So I've always either called or messaged text message as the one I usually use, because then I don't have to hear the tone of voice. Um, but yeah, most mostly sometimes, if you you'll find that, um if they are within the queer community, then they usually most people are pretty cool with it. And, um, it's best just to see, like, track a person out. Do you know what I mean, like, just be like, what do you think of these types of people [00:17:00] Kind of thing. And that's what I usually did for. So that's that's my advice. What do you think are some of the most important, um, issues or things affecting, um, people in the Rainbow communities in New Zealand at the moment? What things would you like to change, or where do we still need to education for youth and public schools? That is what I want. That's something I've been thinking about lately. Um, would [00:17:30] be education? Well, I wouldn't say queer education, but kind of because all the kids get taught in school is, is is in sex, ed. I guess that's what they call it straight education about, you know, I want I want queer identities. And so kids can learn about these things because just because there might be one of them, you know you can you can still help them out. And that would be awesome. I mean, school out. School art does an amazing job of educating kids in public schools. Um, but it's just [00:18:00] sad that, uh, some schools can. They do have the right to say No. And they will. And I know of them doing a couple of schools, but I don't know too many. Yeah. Um, was there any mention of sexual or gender scandal? No, no, no. Absolutely nothing. I learned about condoms, and how to I didn't even know. No, no, we didn't learn how to have sex. [00:18:30] We learned about yeah, condoms and what you could get from sex. That's it. Fuck. Um, where would you like to say things go for the community? Oh, we had to go. I want it to grow. I want it to grow bigger. That's what I want. And [00:19:00] yeah, for the Because I know that there are very many little take within the Maori community that just don't know it yet and are being pushed aside. And, you know, are being told that this kind of stuff is wrong. And and I want education for them. I want I want safe spaces for them and yeah, that's what I want. And what about the trans community while we Oh, ok, more [00:19:30] safe spaces. Um, actually, so far, I think the best thing that came out was, um, Auckland University is funding name changes for Trans students at the university. And I thought that was awesome. And I was like, Why didn't you tell me this a year ago? Because I would have gone there and you could have paid for my name. Change could have saved $300 but, um, that's amazing. And I think I think really, what? What I want [00:20:00] as well within the trans community or just for Trans people is that I would like, uh, our surgery is not to be seen as cosmetic within New Zealand and to be funded like it's not that hard to save lives, you know? And, yeah, Do you want to say a little bit more about what the situation is like at the moment? Well, uh, most basically, the only way to get, [00:20:30] uh, top surgery or bottom surgery is you either have to come out and fund, go fund yourself or whatever and write an entire essay about who you are and why people should give you money. But that's coming out. Um, you need to either get a grant and those grants go. I think I believe once every two years to two people. Um, and that's only for one surgery, and or you can either take [00:21:00] out a medical loan or a loan from the bank and then be in debt for a very long time. Or you can just wait or you need to, or you've already got the money. So that's and and either way, it's it's still seen as cosmetic, and that's why you can't really fund it. And, uh, yeah, that's really the only way that you can get surgeries right now and it is pretty expensive. It is very, [00:21:30] very expensive. Yeah, yeah, its really inaccessible and kind of the government. Not really. Taking it seriously is like a thing for me. Like I would like that. That would be amazing. Um, what about, like, access to hormones and things like that? Do you think that's good, that my journey with hormones has actually been quite an easy one, Which was very [00:22:00] new to me. I have been on hormones for about seven months now, Uh, and I think all I basically did was I went to my doctor and told them that, uh, I wanted to start it, and they basically sent a letter to the endocrinologist in Wellington and they set up a interview with them five months down the track, Had an interview with them. They took a blood test, and then I was on shots in [00:22:30] a week. Um, what if you could give a message to, I guess, the younger You like a, um, friends. Um, what would it be? Oh, God. It it definitely would be. Stay strong because I think and And learn patience, because you will learn patience. I think over the past five, Well, 45 [00:23:00] years. I've learned so much patience. Like you, Your parents, they mean a lot to you, but, um, it's best just to give it time and time. Could be 10 years Time could be seven years time. Could be two. But, um, you will get through this and, um yeah. Snap. Yeah. Um, And what's your favourite [00:23:30] thing about, um my favourite thing about being queer is the people. If I wasn't queer, I wouldn't have met the most amazing people in the entire world, so yeah.

IRN: 854
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/butch_on_butch_zoe.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004336
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089630
TITLE: Zoe - Butch on Butch
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Brisbane; Butch on Butch (exhibition/series); Christchurch; Clyde Quay School; IDEA Services (IHC); Ivy Bar and Cabaret; Jac Lynch; Lower Hutt; New Zealand Army; New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF); Russia; Saint Petersburg; Special Needs Unit; Vinegar Hill / Putai Ngahere Domain; Wellington; Wellington East Girls' College; Wellington High School; acceptance; basketball; bouncer; bowls; bucket list; building; bullying; bungy jumping; butch; clothing; employment; friends; gender; gender identity; hospitality; identity; military; overseas experience (OE); parents; pay it forward; pets; relationships; rugby; siblings; single sex schools; snowboarding; sport; sumo wrestling; support; tomboy; transcript online
DATE: 15 March 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I grew up in Lower hut until the age of about 10. Uh, and then my mom decided she was gay and wanted to live the night life. So we moved to Wellington, and I've been there ever since. And you've lived a little bit in Australia, too? Yeah, I've lived in Australia off and on over the years. Just when I get bored, I'm a a bit of a gypsy, so I like to move around and keep things interesting. Uh, I kind of live out of a bag. So even when I'm in New Zealand, I [00:00:30] change location every couple of months. Where did you go to school? In Wellington. Uh, I went to Clyde Quay for intermediate and part of primary school. And then, uh, I went to Wellington east for a year, which definitely didn't suit me. So moved to high. And, um yeah, definitely enjoyed that. So what was the difference for you between, um, Wellington east and high? Well, after coming out of, um, [00:01:00] which is such an open and diverse school into a quite a, you know, strict school as Easters with girls and their attitude. I just didn't enjoy it. It wasn't me. It wasn't where I needed to be, and it held me back. So yeah, Wellington High is more open and more like minded people, I suppose. And everyone was kind of on the same level is where I was at. And as [00:01:30] a, uh, you were involved in the butch and Butch photo exhibition. Um, did you identify as a child or were you seen as a tomboy or anything like that As a kid? As a kid, I was definitely a tomboy. Um, ever since the age of two, my mom knew I was where I was going to end up. Uh, I just Yeah, I used to, um I mean, my mom let me wear boys clothes, and I mean right down to undies. Even [00:02:00] as a kid, I wanted boys undies, boy shorts, boys, shoes, boys, socks, no frilly things. Um, but my dad didn't really let me, so it used to upset me quite a lot. Not having a say in in my clothing and even even as young as five. I can remember feeling upset and and, uh, just not right when I was in girl's clothes. Yeah, I suppose so. I. I definitely have always been a tomboy. I mean, I suppose [00:02:30] when you get older, it just gets labelled as Butch. You stop being a tomboy when you start being an adult. I think Was that part of the reason you didn't like Wellington East so much? Yeah. Yeah, days were interesting. I I got, um, abused by a few teachers for, you know, entering a girls school. Um, um they didn't recognise him. No, no, they thought I was a boy, so Yeah, I got [00:03:00] verbally abused by a few teachers and questioned, um, and the girls. They just that they didn't feel comfortable with it. And and, you know, it just wasn't a nice situation. I don't think so. Going to high? That meant for you. You could wear what you wanted. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I could. Yeah. I. I wore skate shoes. Dickie shorts. You know, t-shirts and skate hats every day. And no one ever questioned it. No one ever bullied [00:03:30] me. No one ever thought twice. It was just the norm. You know, everyone. Everyone was comfortable. What? They what they were wearing, You know, um, and I and I didn't hang out with a specific group that meant that I had to wear their kind of clothing. You know, I was even a gypsy back then. So every day was different. It was hanging out with the girly girls or the jocks or the nerds, you know, as you you'd confine them to those groups, you know, society does stereotypes, but so it was cool. We we all just wore what we wanted to wear and hung out with whoever [00:04:00] we wanted to hang out with. And every group had had the different characters and, yeah, it was a lot more open and accepting. Yeah, And did that mean that you, um well, obviously you had a better time at school. But did it mean that you could be more relaxed about your studies or what you got involved with? Yeah, definitely. So I I when I went to East, I played bowls because it was the only sport no one else was doing. Um, and I love it. Anyway, it's a great sport, but, um, is that outdoor [00:04:30] bowls? Outdoor boss, Lawn bowls? Yeah. The old guys loved me down there at the, uh, yeah, bowling club, but no, at high. I got I got more into all my sports, like rugby and basketball, because, you know, it was I was more accepted, so yeah. Yeah, definitely. And And at East, I kind of avoided changing rooms as well, you know, because, um, I was just uncomfortable. Really. It wasn't nice. [00:05:00] Were you out, then? Well, see. No, that's the thing. Like, everyone knew I was gay. I knew I was gay, but I never said it. It it was never a said thing. It was more of just a I know I was happy with myself. So everyone was happy with me and and it wasn't talked about. Hm. And, um, do you have brothers and sisters or do I have three half brothers? So, uh, my mom doesn't have any other kids, but my dad has three [00:05:30] half brothers who are the oldest is six years younger than me. The second one is nine years younger, and the next one is 11 years younger. So they they're quite young, but yeah. How old are you? 24. This year. So I'm 23. So the next one is 17, 14 and 12. And did you grow up a bit with them in the same household or no. So they were my dad and my stepmom. Um, I went [00:06:00] there What used to be every second weekend, I'd be at theirs. And then every other weekend, I was at my Nana's, um, so my mom could party, party the night away. Um, which was great. You know, it's cool. Going to see family and it, um, but yeah. So I grew up with my mom and then, yeah. So every second weekend, I was with my dad and my brothers. They I mean, they loved me. I was the older sister, and I was cool. And, you know, I was a skater and, yeah, so they weren't phased by with me, and and my cousins used to call me a boy. [00:06:30] You know, every time I saw them, which was, you know, every couple of months, it wasn't like we went years without seeing each other. They just thought I was a boy and and it was a bit different. And that's how they treated you as a boy. And did Did that bother you at all? No. No, I used to laugh. I just used to laugh. I used to get it everywhere. everywhere I went. So my own family doing it didn't didn't surprise me. So you talk before that? Um, once you moved to high, you weren't. There was no bullying had there [00:07:00] been bullying, um, for you earlier. Yeah, but I'm not the kind of person to take notice. My friends notice when I get bullied, but because, you know, I don't really take notice of negative things around me at all. So I just brush it off and and it it goes in one ear and out the other. And and I go on with my merry way, so I never noticed it, but, um, yeah, there was bullying. Yeah, um, but I just just left them to it. And [00:07:30] I used to hang out at the, um what was called the snow unit quite a bit with the special needs kids and have lunch with them. And, you know, just put yourself in positive situations instead of dealing with girls and their judgement. And you you just find a better way to go about your day. Yeah. So when you, um when you left school What? What did you do? I. I built I was a builder. That my whole way through school. So from 14 [00:08:00] onwards, I, I used to skip class and and build houses down the road. Um, at 16, I built a a recording studio across the road from Wellington High Who was employing you? My dad. Yeah. So? So, Dad, Dad was OK with me not going to school if I was working. So yeah, um, I passed. I passed every test. You know, I wasn't I wasn't behind I. I got Yeah, CS get degrees. So my teachers let me [00:08:30] know when I had to be there for a test or, um, anything like that and and would work. Obviously, I'd turn up one day a month and get everything done. So yeah, it was I knew where I wanted to be, and and at that stage, I wanted to join the army. So, um, I I passed everything I needed to pass, which which got me into the army. And then I And then I excelled and I got level two as well. So yeah, I was pretty happy with that. So you got into the army? How long were you in the army for? [00:09:00] Ah, well, II, I Yeah, I didn't actually go in, so I passed and I passed. Um, the men's 100 fitness club, which is I don't know if any other girl had passed it before. It was Yeah, I did. I did, um, exceptionally well at the fitness and the test for it and for orientation day. I didn't go because my girlfriend at the time said that if I joined [00:09:30] the army and had three months basic training, she wouldn't be there when I got out. So, yeah. So that's something that I probably should have done, but, oh, well, but you didn't because of your girlfriend saying that. Yeah. Have you ever regretted that? Uh, yes and no. But, you know, it gave me other opportunities. And, you know, II, I took other career paths that I wouldn't have chosen. So yeah, it was different. So what? What? Um, did you end up doing [00:10:00] security? A lot of security. Um, which got me quite far. I did it for about four years, so I went from, um, Armour guard to The Hobbit. I was a night security supervisor on The Hobbit, so that was pretty intense. 100 and five hours a week I don't know if it's legal or not, but yeah, that was a test. Um, and working with idea services as well. So IHC so that was That was amazing. Actually, that was more tiring than any building job I'd ever [00:10:30] done That was mentally draining, but amazing. How long were you with the IHC? About a year. A year? Yeah, when I was about 18. As a support worker. Yeah, as a support worker in House Respite And, um, yeah, programmes and stuff. And, um, what did you enjoy about that? Uh, just just the appreciation. You know, these kids don't have anything, really, like they they some of them struggle to breathe every [00:11:00] breath, and they're just so happy all the time. You know, they can't feed themselves. They can't wipe themselves, but yet they're the happiest people you'll ever meet. You know, they Yeah. And what drew you to that work? Um, well, I'd always done it at school. I'd always done it at school. I mean, I'd skip if I was at school. Even at Wellington High, I'd skip classes to take them to class, you know, they they'd not go to class and Zoe took them, you know? So I've always done [00:11:30] it, and I It had always been on my mind to do it. So, I, I guess I just I needed a job and I walked in one day and yeah, the ladies loved me and gave me a job. So and what else have you been doing? I think I'm a gypsy in the career department. Just as much as the houses I've done. I've done lots. Um, when I lived in Australia, I got my forklift ticket and my warehouse C three. So I did a bit of that. Um, I've done a bit of, like, concerts [00:12:00] and things like that. I enjoy doing work behind the bars. I know. Lots of stuff. Lots of different things. Yeah, but mostly mostly building. Are you building now? Doing labouring now or building? Yeah. So I'm unqualified, but I Yeah, I'm a builder. And, um, when we came to take the photo of you for this project, you were, um you were on site DNA. Um, can you describe what [00:12:30] you were wearing that day? Uh, my belt. Yeah. So about, um, t-shirt, uh, steel cap boots and my cargo pants. That outfit changes between stubby and cargo pants, depending on the weather. That's about all that changes. And you've got some great tattoos. Can you tell us a bit about those? Um, yeah, there's a few my mother's probably not [00:13:00] happy about. Um uh, Well, I just My latest one is a burger on my left elbow. Um, burgers on on Cuba Street. The best burgers in my life. I had I had them once. Enjoyed them so much that I got their logo on my elbow. You got a walking advert for them? Do they know that they do. They give me free burgers or or cheap burgers sometimes. So that's good. Uh, the other one would probably be my dog's name. That's that's I like [00:13:30] it. It means a lot to me, but, um, a lot of Bailey So and then my, um my lovely dinosaur on my right leg that I did myself after. Well, let's just say close to a bottle of gin. So that's always a good one. You did it yourself. What were you using? A tattoo gun? Tattoo machine. Sorry. Yeah, upside down. [00:14:00] Who who belonged to the tattoo machine? That's not yours. No, I do have a machine. But no, that wasn't mine. That was a friend who was tattooing another friend at a house. And I got a bit intoxicated and asked if I could cross cross something off the bucket list. It was on the bucket list. It was It was completely legit. Um, yeah, yeah, she she liked it so much that I actually she actually asked me to do it on her leg after. So I mean, it's on and it just is roar as well, So [00:14:30] yeah, yeah, it's a T rex because it's got little arms. But mum says it looks like a beaver. It it's like a cross between a T rex and a beaver. Um, what else is on the bucket list? Oh, God, it's a novel. It's an absolute novel. There's probably about 300 things on it festivals all of the festivals you could think of. Um, the seventh one is the world. Obviously. Travel [00:15:00] Asia on a motorbike. Um, pet a tiger swim with sharks. I've done that, actually. Um, lots of things skydive every everything you could ever imagine that would be on a bucket list is on my bucket list and then also things like, um, pay for the person behind me and, uh, do kind deeds and things like that. So, like the pay it forward type thing? Yeah. Pay it forward. Yeah, which II? I do as much as I can, but, [00:15:30] yeah, I just chuck it in my bucket list as a friendly reminder to do it more. Have you got anything on your bucket list coming up soon? Um, snowboarding. I've been crossing that off. I took that up, Um, after Caroline. So I took that up and then, Yeah, I've been doing that, um, wakeboarding. I'll probably cross that off soon. And skydiving. So I'm moving to Christchurch, so I'll definitely be skydiving [00:16:00] over, um, and that. Awesome. So just because people won't know when you referred to Caroline, can you just briefly say what you mean there, Uh, Caroline was, um what I would consider one of my aunties. So growing up, Mum had all of her, Um, you know, the gay community in Wellington, and because I was so young, everyone was a big influence in me, and I consider them all aunties. Um, you know, like Nick and and Caroline and Mickey. And Debs and, you know, pricey [00:16:30] and Jodie. The list goes on. And, uh, Caroline was a big influence. She used to take me surfing, and she was always just so positive and so happy. And And I didn't get to spend much time with her. Um, a little bit of vinegar hill. And if I popped into her house and that, but not a lot of time, I. I regret that. But, um, yeah, she she died, um, last year, the year before 2013, I think on Mount looking for a board and And I'd always wanted to snowboard, but [00:17:00] I don't know. I think the fear kind of got to me. But after that, I just thought bugger it, I'll just do it for her. And she'd be happy she'd be stoked that I was doing it. So yeah, I'm nervous every time I'm up there. Oh, every time. Every chair lift. I'm just scared. But it's scared. It's good fun. So it sounds like you're kind of into extreme sports in a way. Or is that right or No, I'm just stupid. No, no, I, I actually [00:17:30] know. No, I just like to If I'm scared of something. I like to do it. Yeah. So if I'm scared of spiders, I'll try and pick one up. Or if I'm scared of snowboarding, I'll do it because you shouldn't let things stop you. And you should at least try every Oh, I mean, I say that, but there's some things that's not I'm not gonna try, But you should try everything once you know especially things that you're scared of, like heights and things. So that's about the challenge. It's about [00:18:00] pushing yourself and and and because when you do it, it's It's better than any feeling in the world, you know, like you just become Oh, it's like a drug. You know? I didn't think I could do that. You know, I didn't think I could jump off that ledge or, you know, like I did bungee jumping and I. I stood up there for 30 minutes, convincing myself that I couldn't do it. And then I did it and I just wanted to keep doing it, you know? So I love that feeling. Not the not the adrenaline. Now I'm not an adrenaline junkie. [00:18:30] I'm just stupid. How much do you see your mom? Uh, not as much as she'd like. Yeah, uh, we have a We have a good friendship, I suppose. But yeah. I. I don't know. I don't see her too much. Uh, she doesn't like that, but yeah, she's in Australia. Right? So she's in Brisbane, So I stayed with her a little bit while I was over there between moving back. Um, yeah. So I quit my job and [00:19:00] stayed with her for a couple of weeks and then flew back. So she does get to see me, but yeah, probably not as much as she'd like. Yeah, she voices that quite a bit. Do you, um do you socialise much in the queer communities? Uh, well, everyone knows who I am, but I, I don't know most. Most of the people that I hang out with aren't queer. No, but, um, in saying that, you know, I do go along to events that mean something and, you know, try [00:19:30] and show my support and that, uh and I was the bouncer of IV. So I got to know a lot of people and and I'm I'm fortunate enough to know because of mum and because of like me being out so young. I know every age group of of, um, you know, the queer community right through. And I'm talking from, like, 17, right up to 60. I know all of those groups because they're kind of grouped off in, like, five year sections, [00:20:00] you know, or 10 year section. So the people you you hang around with now are they old school friends or who are they? So you know, just like my locations and my friends, I jump around. So I know like, uh, I hang around with all the mum's old mates. Um, I like to hang out with them. So, like Rihanna and pricey. And then then as well as, like, Mickey and Debs. And that, um I also like my mates. Some of them are from [00:20:30] school. Some of them are from, um the queer community as well. Yeah, I suppose. Yeah, I suppose. Actually, I know everyone. I get so bored. I like variety. I don't like one thing. Yeah, so, you know, everyone's got different views on things, and I like that. I like to be challenged, and I like to learn new things, and I feel like if you just have one group of friends. You just talk about the same things every week. It drives me podcast. Yeah, so, yeah, I hang out with lots of people. When we took your photo, there [00:21:00] was you were hanging out with one of your old mates? Yeah. Sam is a good bloke. He's a He's a cutie. Yeah, me and him have pirate life. So we go kayaking on the water and take blow out onto the water and things like that. That's why you couldn't make it to the opening of the exhibition. Because when you were out on the harbour, Yes. What a blow up he made for a pool. I was, like, literally in the middle of the harbour. And it took us hours to get there on a blow up. Dingy. That's, [00:21:30] like $20 from the warehouse. And we had to take a pump because it kept deflating and we had no life jackets. I don't know what we were thinking. And, um and I realised what day it was and where I was meant to be. And I tried to get a hold of you, and I was Oh, yeah, yeah, I missed the exhibition. because I was in the middle of the harbour on a blow up. Dingy. Yeah. You see a photo and we all looked at it and went That looks so fucking dangerous. He should be here on land at the exhibition right now. [00:22:00] Yeah. I also sent photos to my mother, too. She wasn't impressed either. Yeah. So, um, are you in a relationship at the moment? I am. Well, I'm seeing someone. Yeah? Yeah, apparently, I don't know. Yes. I don't know. I go with the flow. I do. How long have you been seeing her? Yeah, two months. Two months? Yeah. So just getting to know [00:22:30] each other, Which is cool. Yeah, she's very cool. Yeah. And what do you look for in a woman? Uh, they have to be easy going like me. Uh, otherwise, I would just stress them out. Um, fun. They have to be fun and and just ready to up and do something, you know, because I I don't plan things, you know, like, uh, like ending up in Russia. That just happened. I don't plan things. They just happen. [00:23:00] So if I If I get a girl who likes to plan things and, you know, work it all out over months. And actually, now that I'm saying that, I think she does. But that's OK. Um, yeah, yeah, they have to just be spontaneous and and and and down for a good time, you know, and and adventurous and want to jump out of the plane. Or what was that about ending up in Russia? So 2013, I, [00:23:30] my dad took up sumo wrestling and told me that I had to do it. So I went along and I actually enjoyed it for about a month. And then it kind of just happened that I was I got a ticket to Russia in October. So in in in April, I took up wrestling. And then in October, I was in Russia at the World Combat World Combat Games represent Oceana for sumo [00:24:00] wrestling. So, uh, that was pretty cool. So that's that's a bit of how spontaneous I can be. And my mom didn't know I was doing it, and I called her up and I didn't have the money at the time for the for the visa. I needed $75 for the visa and so I called her up. And I said, Well, I'll go to Russia in a couple of weeks. I need $75 for a visa. And she's like, What for? She didn't know. She had no idea. No one did. How did how did you go? Oh, I got my my butt handed to me. Yeah, the Russians [00:24:30] really know how to sumo. I was the lightest in my weight as well, so that didn't help. And I put on heaps of weight for it, too. So what sort of weight were you and what what sort of weight would you've been up against? So the weight divisions go 65 and under 65 to 85 and then 85 plus. And when I started, I was sitting on 90. Um, and I put on over those months, I got up to 1 30 so I really packed it on. Um, you know, people were asking me what's your training? And I was just [00:25:00] eating. I just needed to eat. And I was still the lightest. Yeah, 1 20 something. So, yeah, I just Yeah, and and I was up against girls who were 100 and 60 plus so and and with technique and strength. And they weren't lazy girls. You know, they weren't just big girls. They were strong and and scary really scary. And And when you when you finished that, um, competition did you carry on or No, I've been meaning [00:25:30] to like it, you know I can. You know I can. And I've been meaning to. But now I've been moving around too much. I have missed a few opportunities. I missed an opportunity to go to Colombia, which was I was a bit disappointed, but they they're always there. They'll always come around, you know? So what other sort of sports would you get into? Everything I've played? Everything. I enjoy everything. Cricket, rugby, bowls. I actually love bowls. Do you have all the whites? Do you have to wear all the whites for bowls? No. No, [00:26:00] I don't. No, I should, though. That'd be fun. I thought you did. I thought it was part of the rule. Who knows? No, I just wore a team shirt. Yeah, over in O. I did it over in a quite a bit. They they love it over there. They just drink and play bowls. All day. All ages, too. So I wasn't the only young kid, so Yeah, it was good. No, no, they're all colourful. Yeah. Yeah. I think if you compete, you have to, but yeah, I wasn't I wasn't that serious. My cousin plays for New Zealand. So what did you wear with for sumo? [00:26:30] Um, I wore so I wore the nappy thing. It's called a Yeah. So I had to wear that, um, And then I wore bike shorts and a single underneath. So I was covered. Yeah. Sounds gorgeous. Yeah, really sexual or sexy even. Yeah, but I was a bit worried, actually. Going to Russia, Um, a few years ago, I think it was 2010. I, um, had a heart heartbreak. And I got a tattoo [00:27:00] at the time, um, stars on my shoulders, which at the time, um, the internet told me not to get, and they're really dangerous. And I was advised of it, uh, because they're Russian mafia tattoos. But I thought to myself, and I said to this to my friend at the time, I'm never going to go to Russia. And if I go to Russia, why would I ever take my top off. And then there's me the other year in Russia with my top off in a single wrestling. And the moment [00:27:30] I I kid you. Not the moment I took off my top, my t-shirt and just had a singlet. The whole audience gasped. They're Russian mafia tattoos. It's really big. No, no, But nothing came of it other than they just squashed you. Anyway, they laughed at me. Um, this lady stopped me afterwards and was like you you look so big and tough. But you're so scared. Yeah, it was really embarrassing, but it was funny. Yeah, it was really funny. No, nothing happened. I got in trouble a few times [00:28:00] in Russia, though I thought I'd get in trouble more for being gay because of the whole, you know, they're quite conservative and that, but no, I got in trouble for wearing Jandal and a T shirt in the snow. I had pants on. It was really hot. Who Who Who told you off Just random ladies in the street. And like, abused me in the street for wearing jandal and a t-shirt? Yeah, in Saint Peter in Saint Petersburg? Yeah, it was snowing and that. But it was really hot because we were walking around. If I stood still, I got really cold. But they [00:28:30] were probably just a bit worried about you. I didn't know what they were saying, but it sounded aggressive. I know you don't like to plan, but what have you got coming up next few months? Next few months, I'm going to Christchurch. Um, going to save up some money, go snowboarding. Um, see, my godson, who was just born down in Queenstown and, yeah, cause havoc in Christchurch, I think, [00:29:00] and then save up. I really want to do my two year OE in Europe, so I'll save for that. And on the way to that, I want to spend six months travelling to Asia on a motorbike. So? So the next couple of months are all about saving and planning, which is not not what I like to do, but we'll see how it goes. I've told, um, I've I've told the girl I'm seeing to, uh, take my credit card or take my cards and give me an allowance. So hopefully that works.

IRN: 839
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/butch_on_butch_stevei.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004335
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089629
TITLE: Stevei - Butch on Butch
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 2010s; A Thousand Voices (2014); Amazons Softball Club (Wellington); Aotearoa New Zealand; Butch on Butch (exhibition/series); Elizabeth Kerekere; Jac Lynch; Margaret Tolland; Māori; Nga Kaihanga Uku; Ngāti Porou; Nick Leggett; Paerau Corneal; Porirua; Pātaka Art and Museum; Rose Bean Simpson; Roxanne Swentzell; Suzanne Tamaki; Ta moko; The Drag Kings (Wellington); United States of America; Wellington; Wi Taepa; arts; balance; bathrooms; butch; clay; clothing; colonisation; coming out; community; fa'afafine; femininity; gay; growing up; healing; identity; indigenous peoples; language; lesbian; masculinity; parents; perception; photography; pueblos; school; sculpture; seed bank; softball; sport; support; takatāpui; tattoo; transcript online; two-spirit; wahine toa; whānau; women
DATE: 22 February 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Stevei talks about identifying as wāhine toa, representing New Zealand in softball and creating art.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Stevie, you were one of the participants in the butch and Butch, um, project which involved you having a photo going up and and having some words that you wrote to go with the photo. Um, can you just let us know why you became involved in that particular project? Ok, um well, initially I was approached, obviously by yourself, um, to be a part of the exhibition. Um, very cautiously, obviously, [00:00:30] um, because you weren't sure whether I identified Butch or not. Um, when you first, um, approached me, it did. It didn't sit very well. Um, it was I was kind of not offended, but, um, a bit shocked because, you know, just based on my own own, um, thinking and that. So what I did was then, um, came back at you and said, Well, as as as a Maori woman, um, you know, we're not brought up thinking or [00:01:00] having having those words within our daily life. You know, we use words like, um, et cetera, um, which talk about us being quite capable women, women that are able to and move, you know, fluidly through male and female roles. If it's needed, especially on the et cetera. Um, so I came back at you and and asked whether you would agree to photograph me based on that, That more that you know, I'm [00:01:30] and for me, you know, that that encompasses a lot of, um what people perceive Butch Butch women or butch people to be. Yeah, it was It was, um, kind of a lesson for me because it was right at the start of the project. And I think after speaking with you, that was when I stopped actually approaching people and just put the word out. So I really thank you for having done that, because that was a big learning curve for me, but, um, but Well, well worth it. Anyway, um, Stevie, are [00:02:00] you able to just tell us a little bit about yourself and where you grew up and a bit about your and so on? Um, I may, um, an artist. Um um, mostly, um, deal with clay. So Maori Clay collective. Um, I'm 35 years old, and I grew up in Cannons Creek in, um, my is from Hicks Bay, and, um, and we come from [00:02:30] a very strong, um, family, and we're a chief line um I'm one of eight Children, and there's 77 left. Um, but I'm an only child to my mom and dad. So can work. That one. Good Kiwi family. Um, I was a a sports sports person in another life, Um, played softball in the states and, um, for New Zealand and, um [00:03:00] yeah, and then retired from that and decided to follow my dream as an artist, which I'm doing today. So And what What direction is your arts going in? Um, at the moment, um, I'm working on. I use clay. Like as if it is skin. So it's just a natural progression into tattooing. So, um, obviously, but, um, based on my work with the clay, um, I'm actually I mix so I take [00:03:30] pacific patterns that people might see as being very Pacific island rather than Maori. But I take it that, you know, I look at patterns that we would have used before we got to New Zealand. Um, you know, before we were in, um and also there's so many commonalities. It's just the way we put things together. So doing that on the skin has always been a dream. I've always wanted to be a tattooist? Um, yeah, and I by using the word tattoo rather than I think that it won't it won't be put [00:04:00] into such a tight box as well, you know? So it will allow me to be more of who I am, too. Um, you know, especially, um, being a openly gay Maori artist is is is a big thing. It's not something that's that's openly talked about, um or, you know, acknowledged. Um, so, yeah, so being a tattooist allows me to be who I am. Really? Yeah. How was it for you? As, uh, you were growing up [00:04:30] identifying as as gay? Um, I probably if I'm honest. I knew very early in life. Um, probably, I don't know. Around five years old, I think my earliest memory. Um when I when I was six, my parents split up and I I lived with my dad, um, and he couldn't brush my hair so my long hair got cut off, and probably I was a lot. I was probably happy with that as well. Um, and my dad [00:05:00] would take me to, you know, farmers and dress me in boys clothes, you know, and it was just something you know, I had I always I loved it because I didn't like wearing dresses because it just didn't fit with me. You know, I'm always out there playing around, but, um, What I did find that, you know, I had experiences, like peeing my pants because I was so afraid to go to the bathroom in in places because the woman would tell me off and tell me to get out of the toilet, you know, because I was a boy, you know, and [00:05:30] having to explain that I was a girl, and it's quite finding when you were a kid to have those experience. So I used to hold on as much as I could. You know, not to have to experience that from adults. It was quite daunting and a horrible experience for me, but also, there were a lot of advantages. You know, I learned a lot of things that I probably wouldn't have learned. Um, you know, my dad was a roofer, so I learned to to do things with my hands and, um, yeah, so But my mom was a strong woman, [00:06:00] too, so she taught me on the other end of things to be really strong. Um, Maori Maori girl. Um, yeah. Did it seem to you that your dad was just being really supportive of you being you? Um, I'm not sure, actually. I've never thought of that. I know that when I finally did come out, um, I was, uh, in my early twenties. I just came back from the States. Um, he cried. Apparently, you know, he thought it was his fault, actually, because [00:06:30] of the way he brought me up, you know, because I did live with him and he he brought me up the only way he knew, You know, it wasn't great, but at the same time, you know? Well, it's made me who I am today. So you know, all your experiences in their childhood and teenage years make you who you are. So yeah, And in the states, you're playing softball. Tell us a little bit about that and how things were there for you. Because that's a bit of a you might not identify directly as [00:07:00] a butcher as a bit of a butch enclave for that one. Yeah, um, I was actually straight when I left New Zealand. Well, that's what people think. Um, but yeah. Going to the States and people not knowing me and who I was other than being a softball. Um, you know, it allowed me to Probably for the first time in my life, Um, be who I wanted to be, you know, Um, so, um, I pretty [00:07:30] much Well, I suppose you couldn't. You can't come out if no one knows who you are, but, um, yeah, so I started, um, seeing women, um, and and came out in the states. Um, but it was, um I was there for two years and then had to come back to New Zealand and and fame, um, face a gauntlet of family and friends. Um, so yeah, that was that was an interesting experience. Um, but yeah. Um, because I played softball, you know, in [00:08:00] university and and also some, um you know, you I. I knew a lot of girls that were gay that aren't that are married now. You know, I think it was because it's such such an intense environment because you're with the same people constantly. So it was interesting. It was a very different kind of community from New Zealand's gay community, which I had always been a part of through softball in New Zealand, playing women's ball from the age of 12, [00:08:30] you're exposed to it really early. And my my dad's, um, brothers gay. So, you know, So it was never something we didn't talk about within our family, but yeah, so but being in the States and yeah, it was an interesting experience, just in general, I think, And being in university, you know, the stuff you see in the movies, it does really happen, you know? So but yeah, and and And so, um, it's not It wasn't It's not really typically a butch sport [00:09:00] in the States because I think for, you know, a lot of a lot of girls over there. You You know, you're you're 22 you're at university. You're still really under the thumb of your family. So you you're playing the game. You know, you're you're being very feminine, et cetera. So it wasn't actually till I came back to New Zealand. Um, that you started to see that, um, with the softball players being more butch. But at the same time, we used to just think we were all just athletic, You know, we're sporty people, [00:09:30] so we didn't ever see that term. So for us, the butch ones were the ones that played for the Amazons, and those are the ones that we stayed away from, because no way were we Butch and this and that, you know? And before I came out, none of us were gay. And I think at one point, maybe in one of the teams I played for maybe in the end, 10 out of 14 of us ended up being gay. So, you know, it was definitely a stigma thing that none of us wanted to go there at all. And then, you know, and I think that [00:10:00] probably, um it it shaped my thinking because I really wanted to avoid that. I didn't like to be associated as being butch, you know, it's it's only very recently, um, probably that I feel comfortable even just being around a butch woman and and having people maybe think I am as well. Um, you know, there was something I was really conscious of. Um, you know, maybe something I'm not that proud of. But also, [00:10:30] you know, your environment shapes your thinking and what you think, Um and yeah. So, um yeah, this was a good exhibition for me, actually, it it it meant that I needed to really step outside of my comfort zone to to be a part of it. Yeah. Did you get feedback from friends about being in it and what you'd said about being in it? Um, it was an interesting topic to bring up with [00:11:00] people. It was quite interesting because it made me realise, too, that my perception of myself where I think everyone thinks I'm bitch because, you know, you're in the store and they don't even look at you. And they're like, Can I help you, sir? And I think sometimes it's only because of my size because I'm tall and broad. And, um, so, you know, a lot of them were like, Oh, but you're not Butch. And so that was really interesting. Yeah, it was quite nice because, but, you know, I know that sounds ridiculous, but yeah, it made me see that. Oh, you know, just [00:11:30] because you may think that and you have that opinion that everyone thinks you're butch, you know, because you don't wear girly clothes and that the society is not as small minded. Or maybe, you know, just I have some good friends. Yeah, so but no, they were quite supportive, and they thought it was really brave. And they were actually quite interested in the concept in general. Um, I went on a, um, artists, um, cross culture exchange in Australia, And I was telling some of the [00:12:00] other female Maori artists about this exhibition and they they were really interested. They want to see photos, you know, And they really liked the way that I approached you, you know, about the tour and and they they actually started conversations within us about what we see what is and what people perceive Butch to be in general, you know, which is, you know, the questions that you were asking in the exhibition, you know? So yeah, and and they were saying, Well, what is Butch? [00:12:30] You know, And these are these were straight women, you know? So it was a really cool way of starting dialogue, and yes, so they they, um they were quite supportive. And then they saw the photo too. And they they they really liked it, so they thought it was cool. um, especially having been dressed up in a more traditional way is what maybe we think is, you know, um so having that having been dressed by Suzanne Tamaki. And, [00:13:00] um um what what's it called? Art cost costume art, I think. Yeah. Can you talk about some of the the way that you were dressed for it Because you definitely had certain symbols and things with you? Um, yeah. Can you just talk to it a bit? Uh, yeah. So I thought when I when I, um we confirmed the concept. So I went to Suzanne and talked to her about it, and we thought, Right, Well, we're gonna dress me up as a female warrior, you know? So I I [00:13:30] brought with me. I had a, um, a belt. Um, that was made in the old, old weaving, um, tradition. And they would have used that, um, in the old days to put their pat etcetera and and it And it was it would wrap around so that it protected your, um, kidneys, et cetera, if you were attacked. Um, so I wore that, and I had some of, um, Suzanne's blankets on. Um and I had a that. Actually, [00:14:00] I've had since I was a little kid that was given to me by my grandmother. So that was really special to be able to wear. And, um, then we just had some green on and bone carving, so we just really dressed it up. You know, um, it may not have been typically traditional, but it was, you know, it was a concept. Um, and then we had, um I was wearing a waistcoat, so that was kind of a to the whole colonised, [00:14:30] um, era, um, which is one of Suzanne's specialties. Um, yeah. And then I had my hair out. So it was quite interesting because we wanted to dress me in a really strong, you know, way. But it was actually probably the most feminine I'd looked in a very long time, which was quite amusing for Suzanne. And you, um, just talking a bit more about your art do, um, the [00:15:00] expressions of masculinity and femininity in it. How How does that flow for you? Or or does it? Yeah, well, like that. We've always believed I was always brought up. You know, things. The world's always got to be balanced. And so you always do need your masculine with your feminine, Um, and like when I've done shows or bodies of work, I've always made sure there's There's, um My work is very female, Um, directed, [00:15:30] um, but there's always got to be an element of masculinity in there, whether it's AAA male object or sculpture in some sense, or if it's just a more masculine, female directed sculpture. Um, so, yeah, I. I think that's really important. And I think Clay two is seen as quite hard, but can be also very soft material. Um, so, yeah, so it's It's very evident in my works. What [00:16:00] are your plans for the future? What? What have you got coming up? Um um, in April, I'm actually off to the States again. Um, and I'm I'm heading over to, um, Santa Fe, um, to stay on the Santa Clara reservation. Um, which is the, um, pub Pueblo? Um, native Americans, Um, and it's under an internship with a foundation over there. Um, where [00:16:30] you work on the land and you learn about permaculture, and you learn about the traditional ways that they planted. Um, their crops. Um, you know how they collect their seeds. Um, being on a reservation, they actually are exempt in the States from having to use genetically modified um, seeds. So they use the old seeds they use. You know, they they're growing crops that, you know, go right back, um, and and they and they're continuing because the other thing is, you're not allowed [00:17:00] to stock or stockpile seeds over there as well. So you know, it's It's it's it's rare. So that in itself is gonna be a privilege. Um, and then I'll be working, um, fixing and building, um, adobe housing and just helping out in the community, etcetera. Um, so that's one side of it. But the other side of it is I'll be working with, um, an artist. Um um Rose be Simpson, who's actually the daughter of a very famous [00:17:30] sculptor named Roxanne. Swin, Um, and Rose been, um, is very accomplished and is becoming quite famous in herself, um, and is actually in a movie that's been released this year called A 1000 Voices, um, which talks about, um, Native American women and how they were always told by the missionaries, et cetera that they were equal to men when actually before that they actually had a belief that they [00:18:00] were actually higher than men. They were the ones that own the land. They were the ones that work the land. They were the ones that were out with the crops and the animals, et cetera. So it's just talking about those old ways and and reclaiming that, which seems to be quite a big thing at the moment in the world is where a woman is deciding that actually, you know the world. And again it's the balance thing that the world is out of balance and to rebalance it, the woman have to now take control and heal it. Um, and I know even within [00:18:30] Maori, that's starting to happen and teaching our women that you know they're not crazy or that they're hearing things that they're actually, it's the spirit, you know, and healing that spiritual side. And I think that's quite important. So, um, just from the spirit thing, So what me and Rose are gonna be doing is creating a body of work which explores, um what what being too spirited is in this and for the Native Americans, what they say is that if [00:19:00] you are um, gay, um, lesbian, um, transgender et cetera. That you're too spirit. So you have both a male and female element. Um, and so we're gonna be looking at that. And which is the Maori word for it? Um, And how? How? How How we can show that in a body of work, you know, you're taking a negative and a positive, like yin and yang and and just exploring [00:19:30] that and starting a conversation with clay. Um, you know, using clay and metal together, um, and you and then in some ways, you know, it's a pueblo culture in the Maori culture, so using clay, So using, um you know, um on on her bodies of work and creating and what we want to do is actually create a body of work as in creating armour that can be worn. You know, that that that shows and for Rose, too. She's [00:20:00] She wears her patterns on her skin, which is not overly accepted. It's it's not. She's, you know, she said to me, it's not traditional, in a sense, but it is. And so what she's trying to do is, is is show them So what we want to do is is carve those patterns into the into the skin of these sculptures, you know, and just start huge conversations about it. That sounds really [00:20:30] exciting. Have you got other plans beyond that? If that's, you know, a couple of months and where that might take you or other plans for the future? Um, well, what I want to do, because Because I I did grow up in and I've come back to, um, recently over Christmas. I want to actually come back to, and I want to start working with the community, and I want to start giving back. Um um and one of the things I've been talking to, um, people [00:21:00] about is is going into some of the schools, um, and and teaching them how to start seed banks, you know, and and because, you know, there's that whole thing at the moment in the primary schools where they're growing the gardens and they're teaching the kids how to how to cook with what they're growing, you know, And and I wanna jump on board with that. But also, I want to come back, and I wanna I wanna keep the conversation going That me and Rose start and and do something back here, Um, and and something that, [00:21:30] actually, um, Elizabeth have originally had the idea of, um and I think it still needs to be done. Is having an exhibition of, um, female Maori artists that are, um, that are, and they are willing to say I am. And that's actually never happened before. So there's never been an exhibition, and she saw that. So it's really her baby, but I think it needs to be done. And, um, I know that was really interested [00:22:00] in doing that. Um, so I think, Yeah, just working. And maybe that could be something where, you know, Rose hopefully could come over. I know that Nick, um, who's a said that he would be very, very happy to endorse that he was really supportive of that. And it's really important, especially in a community that's very Maori and Pacific based. We are being, um, is is alive and well, you know, it's very prevalent. It's very [00:22:30] open. Um, and we need, you know, and he sees it and wants to support it. You've mentioned some people who are the influencers around you right now. Who are those who are the people? Um, at the moment, um, I have quite a few in influence influences, Um, working with the clay I. I did II. I was taught by, um, an artist called, um, but, uh, one of my biggest influence. And the person that [00:23:00] I quite admire is, um um who who probably is the first Maori artist that I ever met That was openly gay, um, and that that never had that, you know, And it's a part of who she is. It's not a thing. It's just she lives her life. Um, and she and she really loved that whole concept of as well. And she was the person I actually spoke to before I agreed to do the photographic exhibition. Um, um, you know, and and she [00:23:30] did think, Yeah, because there needs. There's no place for the word, but, you know, because there's more. We're more than you know, not more than that. But there's more to it, you know. And these layers, so really does does for us explaining, you know, some Maori words you can't translate into English because you'd have to say 10 English words to get the real meaning of it. Yeah. So, um, and Suzanne Tamaki, um, when I've come, I've come back to Wellington, and she's been [00:24:00] really supportive of me coming back. Um, she she doesn't do clay or anything like that, but just in her ideal ideas and her brave, she's brave, you know? She's quite brave and out there, and and And it's making me be a bit more brave and, you know, and having her support again to do this exhibition was, um the butch and Butch photographic exhibition was Really, um, yeah, I don't know if I would have done it. Maybe without her. Um, [00:24:30] yeah. And I'm also, um, yeah, I'm always at, so I'm I'm quite I'm I think I'm part of the furniture now. Um, So Margaret Tolin has been really a really big, um, supportive support person for me, actually, in a lot of ways, personally and with my work, um, she's just really trying to push me to start, you know, exploring more and having more faith in my own artwork, et cetera. Um, and she was actually the one that [00:25:00] changed my perception of butch woman. You know, um, taking it from a probably a naive thinking from my softball days and and being around her, you know, having been part of the drag kings, um, meeting meeting you through Margaret and, um, and others that were from that truth. And also just other people within the community that that identify as Butch, you know, and and realising that there's more to them than what they you know, just looking and [00:25:30] judging people on how they look. And I think we forget sometimes that, um although we don't want people to judge us, we judge others. Um, and I always knew I was a bit of a hypocrite in that sense. So she really opened my horizons, introduced me to more people. Um, and it's and it's only been for the better, really.

IRN: 838
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/butch_on_butch_george.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004334
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089628
TITLE: George - Butch on Butch
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: George Mapplebeck
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Butch on Butch (exhibition/series); Jac Lynch; Kapiti Coast District; Queer Trans* Fight Club; Wellington; bathrooms; butch; diversity; employment; family; femme; gender identity; growing up; guidance; homophobia; identity; internet; ladies; language; loner; martial arts; masculinity; parents; photography; queer; role model; school; self defence; stereotypes; tomboy; transcript online; tumblr. com; youth
DATE: 22 February 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast George talks about being part of the Butch on Butch exhibition, wanting to be part of a conversation about female masculinity and what Butch means.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I grew up mostly on the coast. Um, I have a middle class background. Both my parents are teachers. Um, I have two younger brothers, so I hang out with them a bit while I was growing up as well. So as a kid, how would how would you describe yourself when you were a child? What were you like? Um, I think I was maybe a bit of a loner, but yeah, like, um, had my own adventures. They usually involving [00:00:30] tree houses and, um, Wars with my brothers. We were quite close growing up, and yeah, just a pretty I guess we're kind of lied to a thing a lot of the time. I guess not that my parents weren't around or anything, but we just kind of left in our own world and, um, at school. What were things like for you at school? Yeah. Again. I was probably a bit of a loner, but [00:01:00] I think I didn't feel like isolated, but, I don't know, maybe my mom worried or something. Um, it was more that I was in my own world doing my own imaginary things, like have projects for myself Where I'd like climb certain trees or gather Berries or something like that around the school? I don't know what, um, Did you see yourself as being different at all for the from other people in your school? Not really. Um, I thought I was pretty run of [00:01:30] the mill at the time. Like, um, I was involved in other people's games or in games and stuff, and, I don't know, looking back, do you see yourself as being different at all rather than, uh, yeah, I guess so. Like, um, I wasn't really into the mothers and fathers games or something. I just was. I just thought it was a bit silly. Um, and I'd go along with it, but it was like, [00:02:00] Yeah, I was kind of like surely there's, like, more to life than this. And, yeah, I guess, Yeah, like I I guess my mom's quite a like a repeated person as well. And she was like, You don't need to restrict yourself to certain gender roles or whatever girls can do the thing. That kind of motto is her basic principle, I guess. Do you, um, see anyone as being particularly influential [00:02:30] on you when you were younger? Um, I guess my mom and dad Yeah, uh, sort of shaped my interests and, uh, my approach to the world. I guess, um, you were involved in the, uh, but on Butch photo exhibition. Can you just tell us a little bit? Why you got involved in that? Um, I got involved [00:03:00] because I kind of wanted to be part of a conversation about what Butch meant and what female masculinity could look like and how I felt about but in is a separate thing or is a thing which is related to female masculinity. But it's not necessarily the same thing. Exactly. Maybe. Can you, um, tell us how you identify if you do, [00:03:30] Um, I identify as a butch woman. Um, yeah. So for me, um, which is an identity which is compatible with my masculinity as a female person. But I think it's something that I've grown into or learned more about, and it's kind of continually developing as an identity for me and what that means and stuff. I remember, [00:04:00] um, from the narrative that you wrote for the, um, for the project to go with your portrait that you said that when you, um you remembered. First, you're first identifying as a butch. I think, um, it was I was actually quite old by the time I actually decided that because yeah, like I is a younger person. Like I was seen as, like, more aggressive than a [00:04:30] young woman should and interested in things that a young woman shouldn't and that kind of stuff. And I think it was, like, always, just like, Well, maybe at some point, I'll just, like, switch into like like, um, ideal young woman mode or whatever, but I think I was just, like, no stuff that I'm gonna just embrace this part of myself, and that's part of who I am. And I was like, Let's just move forward being comfortable with that part of my gender. Do you? Do [00:05:00] you have any ways of describing how you think that that is in the world? Um, so that might mean like I would chase my brothers around with a stick or something. And, um yeah, just kind of, like little micro comments like, Oh, you're so aggressive Or you so like you talk like a boy. You think like a boy. You must be a boy. Why are you such a boy? And I just remember [00:05:30] at some point I think I decided that I wasn't going to take that as a dis Um, even though. Yeah. Like it. It's kind of complicated because it is a in that circumstance. So I think coming to terms with that and just being like, Well, I'm going to accept that. So deal with it. And how is it, um, for you in the world now, uh, pretty good, I think. Yeah. Like continually developing my own identity [00:06:00] and how that relates to other people as well as how I feel about it. Um, I have good friends. Who, You know, we kind of talk about it sometimes in our own special way. Um, yeah. What is that? What is that special way? What does that look like? I don't know. Um, like, we might go for a swim or something or hang out. [00:06:30] I just talk about stuff and what's what's up with what's on top kind of thing. Stuff bothers us on like a gender level as well, like going to a restaurant and people being like, Hey, ladies or something like that, and I know that there's lots of, um, more normative gendered women that are bothered by being ladies. But it just Yeah, it seems so unlikely. He was just kind of like what? [00:07:00] Are there any, um, uh, you know, that's sort of an example of of getting seen as something that you don't really identify with. Does it affect you in other ways, like in work or looking for jobs or those sort of areas? It's sort of hard to tell because you can't read people's minds, I guess. I mean, the work that I do now is pretty like stereotypically, [00:07:30] but I guess and it's in a male dominated field. Um, so, yeah, I don't know. Um, sometimes it's hard to know how people are reading you, whether they are seeing you as a masculine woman or they think you're a dude or they're thinking something else or you get ladies. Yeah, and so you don't always know how people are gonna act and you just have to play or whatever they're saying. Like, I don't say no. I'm a lady. [00:08:00] When people are thinking that I'm a dude, I just kind of roll with it, see if they figure it out. Hopefully, they don't get mad when they figure it out. Have you ever had any bad experiences? Um, I've had some, uh, sort of strange bathroom things where people are like, this is the ladies stuff like that? Um, but nothing really physical or anything, but it's just generally a bad vibe from people. Um, someone yelled at me in the supermarket, [00:08:30] Um, when he mistook me for a dude, and I turned out not to be, And then he was like, you tricked me kind of thing. And I was like, I haven't done anything. The me and my friend were just like, this is weird and funny, but yeah, does any it Does any of it come across as a homophobic thing for you? Any questioning of you? Like that? Uh, yeah, but I don't know, I. I feel like I haven't had that much [00:09:00] homophobia that I've actually dealt with. Like I guess street harassment. Like I wouldn't say more than other queer people that I know. Yeah, maybe it's because I'm sort of tall and tough looking or something. No, that must be it. Um, And you say that you you meet up with other butchers occasionally. Um have you have you act actively sort [00:09:30] out our friendships or butchers? Or is that just something that's come into your life That's just come into my life? And I really value those connections, I guess. Yeah, because there's not that many if any. Um and yeah, like, I guess other butchers might have different ways that they feel about their identity and different approaches to that. And, yeah, kind of. I've learned to have a sensitivity to that as well. Um, yeah, but I think anyone [00:10:00] but or otherwise who kind of gets it is kind of cool as well. Like, there's been lots of really awesome films that have kind of talked to me about stuff and told me things or whatever. Do you think there are stereotypes? Yes, I'd I'd say that. I think because Butch is quite a visible thing. It tends to be a stereotype [00:10:30] in itself. And I think that you can embody a stereotype, but in a way, which you're still kind of being yourself as well. Having been in the in the photo exhibition, did you find that, uh, anyone sort of reacted to you being in it? Or did they give you feedback about being in it? Um, most people, I think, were pretty excited [00:11:00] about the project. Um, and they liked what I wrote about it. And I thought that was nice. Um, yeah, I think going on from it, I'd still like to keep those conversations going with other people in the community and other butchers, like, among other butchers, about what that means. And because yeah, like I like, there were a couple of us who were like, Yeah, but yeah, but there were other people who seemed like a little more [00:11:30] reticent or something. They didn't want to own it quite as much. And then, like, um, dust me kind of thing. I was like, Yeah, I think it would be cool if there were people who were like, You're OK kind of thing. You're actually awesome. You're a special unicorn. Keep going with it. I've got, um, a copy of what? You, um of what you wrote George and wouldn't [00:12:00] mind it if, um, if you do us a favour and and read some of it out. It was really important that, um, people were able to write about themselves as well as have the photo up, too, are you? You OK about reading from it? Um, I remember the exact moment that I actively accepted my masculinity as a part of me and how powerful and freeing that thought was. Well, I've always been pretty tomboyish. I learned that maybe that it was something I needed to hide or learn to adapt. I want to say more [00:12:30] about what being butch feels like than rather than what it looks like. And remember that it's more than having a neat hairstyle or having mechanical aptitude or whatever. For me, it's generosity grounded this responsibility, kindness, care, solidarity, vulnerability and strength. A kind of energy. It's not about rejecting femininity, but rather the proudly embracing of the masculine characteristics I have in incorporating those aspects into my self-expression. I think it's important for me to [00:13:00] for Butch as a whole to be seen as a positive thought force as a desired thing as something valued and special. Sometimes it's quite isolating, being queer and even more being butch. You're cut off from other people, defined by their assumptions and prejudices, as being a bit of a freak or defined as something negative like that stereotype thing. Um, Because of this, we are really into building up groups of friends, having good relationships with people that get you in [00:13:30] creating queer communities that are safe and welcoming. Cool. Thanks. Do you see it? Um, the butcher identity is influencing how, um, how you will be as you get older in any way how you are in relationships or sort of what you what you dream of doing. I think I would like to grow into a well adjusted, but I don't know, I I think it's [00:14:00] it's a thing that you can maybe not full, fully fulfil, like in terms of I think of the values that I just read out. And I'm like, Well, that's kind of aspirational because I can't be all those things all the time, but I think it would be good if I was so it's nice to be to be able to identify the things that you actually want to draw on as being part of you going easy and remembering. I'm still like a human, and [00:14:30] I think, yeah, like it's a It's a good positive thing and hopefully I'll grow into a good one of those. Do you have role models. Jack Lynch, get away with you. I don't know. Yeah, like, um, some of the role models that I've had have been just, uh, other masculine people, whether they're men or whether they're trans guys or whether they're butchers. Um, just in terms of how they relate to people, how they treat other people, [00:15:00] what stuff they're into, I don't know. Lots of just cool people. Yeah. Are there things that concern you about? Um, how the queer communities are? No, not really. I think the queer communities, like it's such a big and diverse group of people that we're not going to get along all the time. And we're not going to be accepting of all of ourselves at once, even though it would be nice. [00:15:30] Um, and yeah, like, I I'd like to be a part of just working out that stuff sometimes. Yeah, instead of throwing up my hands and saying why can't we all just get along? I'm just like, Well, I'm gonna hang out with the people that are good to me, and yeah, and hopefully be good to them back. And if you were, um, not necessary advice. But if you were giving some guidance or something along those [00:16:00] lines to young people coming through who mhm might identify as Butch. What? What sort of things would you say? Um, I'd say Go easy on yourself and you're all right. You're OK. Um, you're your own special person. And if you feel like Butch is a thing for you, then that's cool. And let's talk about that. Let's talk about what that means, because I don't I don't know whether I have all the answers of what it means [00:16:30] either. So let's work it out. Do you? Do you see any particular pressures for young people in the, um the as who have a butch identity or coming through into the queer communities or just being themselves in the world? Um, yeah. I think there are pressures on people from both within the queer community to identify one way or another. And in the straight world, who prefer, if you're straight [00:17:00] and, um suspended. Um, yeah, I think I think young people today do have a wider vocabulary of how they want to identify. And I think, but needs to be a part of that as well. Um, yeah, there's not a prescription for how to be, I think with, like, things like Tumblr and stuff. I think there's a proliferation of different people's identities and that being a lot more visible and open and accessible to [00:17:30] a lot more people. So you don't have to, like, go to a certain bar to, like, meet the other butchers or whatever. They're kind of already available. There they are. Where are they? Non tumblr and online and online? Yeah, the Internet. It will help you. Yeah. Maybe that's advice as well. Find the Internet. Would there be any cautions around that? Um, yeah. [00:18:00] Learn how to delete your inbox history or your browser history. Um, so if you were in a place where your parents would be mad if they found out what you were looking at, Do you belong to any particular groups around the place? Um, groups? No, I'd not. Particularly I do do the queer trans fight club thing, um, which we're hoping to reboot at some point. Tell us about that. Um, [00:18:30] so it's a group for queer and trans people to get together and learn martial arts skills and self defence techniques. Um, it's kind of like meeting up with people and having a fun wrestle and then going home. Yeah, but yeah, like, um, basically, you get to choose what level of activity you're into. If you don't want to get hit in the head, then no one hits you in the head. And if you don't want to [00:19:00] wrestle, then you don't have to or do something else, but yeah, we've had lots of different people come and share this sort of specific martial arts technique with us. Like we've had Brazilian jujitsu and boxing, which I think some of us have had a go at outside of the group. And we've also had kendo, um, kung fu, pro wrestling, karate, taekwondo and other stuff. Um, [00:19:30] other really experienced in skills. Self-defense People come and show us how how they do their thing. And we're all like, Oh, OK. And it's kind of like you learn something every time. They must be feel pretty special with that particular group that you're working with. If it's queer and trans and having other people come in and teach you things, Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, like we don't claim any expertise or anything, so we're just kind of open for people to come and learn and teach and stuff. [00:20:00] Um, yeah, I think we've had lots of really cool people get involved as well. Like, I think having Trans in the name has helped Trans people get involved as well, Like more so than other queer groups I've been involved in. Having that in the actual title, I think, has made it more accessible at least.

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TITLE: Hamish Allardice profile
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VOICES: Hamish Allardice
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; 2000s; AIDS Support Network; Alcoholics Anonymous; Aotearoa New Zealand; Arthur Tauhore; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Auckland; Australia; Barbara Thorne; Beacons of Hope (Wellington); Bruce Burnett; Bruce Burnett Clinic (Auckland); Candlelight Memorials; Carmen Rupe; Chrissy Witoko; Christianity; David Hindley; Devotion (Wellington); Dick Johnstone; Different Strokes Wellington (DSW); Dorian Society; Elizabeth O'Loughlin; Evergreen Coffee House; Gareth Watkins; Gay Games; Gay and Lesbian Narcotics Anonymous (Wellington); Gisborne; HIV / AIDS; Hamish Allardice; Hero (Auckland); Janet Dunn; John Eade; Kevin Haunui; Love parade (Wellington); Mark Harrison; Martin Kaulback; Masterton; Mount Victoria; NZAF Ā whina Centre; Narcotics Anonymous; Netherlands; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Overseas Passenger Terminal; Richard Benge; Rudi ten Have; STI; San Francisco; Sesqui 1990; Shed 21; Sprung! Productions; St Andrew's on the Terrace; Sydney; The Glamaphones; Turtle Cove Beach Resort (Australia); Victoria Club; Wairarapa; Wellington; Wellington Frontrunners; Whairepo / Frank Kitts Park Lagoon; Whanganui; abuse; acceptance; addiction; ageing; alcohol; alcohol and drug abuse; amyl; anger; assault; beats; body image; bullying; children; choirs; church; coming out; community; compassion; coping mechanisms; cycling; dance; dance party; death; depression; drag; drug abuse; drugs; eating disorders; employment; fag; faggot; forgiveness; friends; gardening; gay; genderfuck; gobbler; grief; growing up; hate; healing; homophobic bullying; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; honesty; hope; identity; intimacy; isolation; lesbian; literacy; love; mary; media; memorial; mental health; nightclub; parents; parties; profile; racism; recovery; rehabilitation; relationships; religion; role model; running; rural; safe sex; saunas; school; self esteem; self help; sexual abuse; sexualisation; shame; singing; spirituality; sport; striptease; suicide; support; swimming; triathlon; twelve-step programmes; values; visibility; volunteer; wellbeing; wellness; women
DATE: 14 February 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Hamish talks about being bullied at school, abuse, addiction and recovery. The AIDS Memorial Quilt panel for Rudi and John can be viewed here.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So I'm I'm Hamish and I. I live in Wellington now, but I was born in Masterton in 1962. So, um, born in the in the and, um, lived there till I was about 10 with a mad family of six Children and a mom and dad, of course. And, um Then when I was 10, we moved up into the in the back box of Gisborne. So it was kind of, um And when I was in master and dad [00:00:30] was a stock agent, So it was. Although we lived in a town, it was a fairly rural upbringing. And I got a great sense of, um, where the food comes from. And, um, how important it all was. Really? Um, youngest of six as well. Um, being the youngest I a lot of time on my own on a sheep station. So I developed a, uh, a a, um a fascination of the animals. And I love the animals and kind of hang out with the dogs and the horses and spent many, [00:01:00] many, many hours just, um, exploring the, um, the sheep station on on a horse on my own. Yeah, it's quite amazing when I reflect back. I went back there recently, um, a couple of weeks ago and had a look, and it really was an idyllic way to be brought up in that regard. Around the home. It was a little bit different, but, um, on the sheep station, it was great. What do you mean? Around the home? How was it? Different? Oh, goodness. What would I say? What would I say? That would be appropriate to say Both My parents have passed now, so I don't feel [00:01:30] so duty bound to to not speak about it, Which is kind of interesting, because I'm developing a whole new philtre. Dad just went last year and mum went in 2011 just before the art games. Actually. So, um, yeah, I would say it was a, um it was quite an interesting It wasn't. It wasn't a happy household, shall we say? And there was lots of chemicals involved in terms of, um, alcohol, lots and lots of alcohol involved. And, um, so as a kid, it was, um [00:02:00] I wouldn't say it was a an idyllic environment to be brought up. And and also, when I was at school, I didn't um, I seem to have missed out on the ability to read and, um, and write particularly well, so when I was, um, in in school at later years, it became harder and harder. And then, of course, when they found that I was gay, it became even harder. So I kind of, um I wasn't a very [00:02:30] I was a hard working student, but I didn't really get very good results because I just wasn't very, um, academic. Yeah, I found it really hard at school. Apart from being a fag, Um, I found it really hard. I just I found out years ago that, um when I went to work for the government that I had a, um that I'd never really learned how to read properly. And I never learned how to group the words. And I wasn't, um, unintelligent. And I wasn't dyslexic or anything. I just because I was just trying to stay alive, [00:03:00] I didn't really learn how to read and write properly. It was a bit of a, um, a mess. And when I go back and look at my school reports the first year, they were just loving me because I was personable and friendly and everything else. But then the second year that, um, rubber had hit the road because they'd realised that I didn't have a clue what was going on in the classroom, and then they'd try and help me. And then I'd move to another school because I kept we kept, um, yeah, it didn't work me in school. And, [00:03:30] yeah, so was the bullying involved. And you're talking about being called a, you know, gay affair and stuff. Oh, God. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, not not at, um, primary. I was a kid, so I think it was 100 and 20 kids, and there was 13 kids, so there was lots of bullying involved. The reverse racism is alive and well in New Zealand. You know, you get the minority was the kids, and we got it every day. We were white maggots, and we were It was really awful. And then, um, [00:04:00] we moved to, and then they sent me to Dan High School, where I, um, first learned about sex because I had no idea what anything was about before that. And, um, Danny high school was kind of idyllic in a way because I was other gay kids in the boarding part and we experimented, and it was kind of a a pleasant experience in lots of ways. Hm, Yeah, most ways, shall we say. And then there was because there was lots of, [00:04:30] um, kids that were just trying to get off, and they would just use the gay kids for whatever they wanted. So it wasn't It wasn't so attractive. But anyway, then I moved to Gisborne and at Gibson Boys High School, there was, um It was hideous. Yeah, I was assaulted in the rectory, in the boarding school, and then the kids who had done it. And they told everyone at the school that I had grabbed hold of them and tried to, um, go down on them. So I got called Gobbler and I got called Mary, and I got called [00:05:00] faggot and all the rest of it. Oh, my God. It was horrible. And basically, for the next three years, I just got hassled to on my way to every classroom. It was a nightmare. So my ability to learn was kind of, um uh was Oh, I found it really difficult. I just had to stay alive. I just wanted to stay alive. You know, I just knew that I had to get through, but I found it really, really challenging. Um, and I didn't learn very well. Yeah. So how did you cope? [00:05:30] I think I developed an evil tongue. Well, I punched out one of the because I had big brothers, so I knew how to defend myself physically. But I knew that if they all had a go that I wouldn't be able to protect myself physically. And I knew that, um, if they started punching me out, that I'd be done for. And I didn't want them to know that I was actually terrified of them all, because on me, they were terrifying. And because they kept coming at me all the time, every day, every class, like if I had to walk down [00:06:00] the corridor every every class, they would be at me God. And, um, I didn't want them to know that I was terrified, so I had to be to not show any feelings or anything. And then I, um, would dress them down and give him a pedigree. Verbally. But there was one guy one day he hit me on the, um I used to wear glasses and he hit me on the ear and, um, it really, really hurt. So I just waited outside the classroom. His name was Howard, [00:06:30] and he was quite a big guy, and I wasn't very big, and I was quite Fay, and I just smacked him right between the eyes, and he just went straight down. And that kind of said to everyone that I was a little bit psycho and to leave me alone physically. So no one really ever touched me physically, which was just great, because I couldn't. I couldn't see how I could protect myself. So I've got I developed an evil tongue, which meant then that I didn't really develop healthy ways of, uh, talking to people, and [00:07:00] I kind of just I would find out who the scariest person in any room that I went to was, and I'd kind of annihilate them. I just, um I'll just go them. Really. I was my first line of defence was attack, so it made me quite isolated and alone in lots of ways. And, um, the gay kids, any gay kids that were at the school. Not that we, um not that I really identified any of them, because I I was just trying to stay alive. I really had no idea. I knew that. I, [00:07:30] um that everyone said I was gay, but for me and I and I kind of knew that I was gay. But in some ways, I didn't really have the choice. I didn't really have the opportunity to make up my mind and have a coming out process or anything else till later on, when I kind of developed the ability to understand what it was all about. I just knew that, um I ended up having sex with guys, and I didn't really know why. Yeah, it was strange. So did you have any, like, internal issues [00:08:00] with, um, yeah, having sex with guys? I mean, did you feel fine after it? Or did you? I mean, did you were you ever conflicted by? That's a really good question. I think the thing was about that was that I was so it was so mechanical. Um, because it's stuff that had happened earlier on in my life. And when I was before I was 10, that, um in terms of, um, other sexual abuse that I I kind of had learned [00:08:30] to shut down. So I like mental the sexual experience by just shutting down and, um, just kind of, um, not being there. But I knew that it was what people liked from me. And because I was in inherently a people pleaser, I didn't really have many other talents to go by. I was just And, um, that was kind of it. It was My only point of reference was that, um was that guys like to have sex with me, and I didn't [00:09:00] really have any. God, that sounds awful, But it was kind of like that's what it was like. You know, I just had, um I had no no other understanding or value. I found it really difficult to learn. I wasn't very bright. I was good at, um, hosting and being friendly and looking after people and socialising. But, um, as long as I was safe, But in terms of that other stuff, I was hopeless. Yeah, I didn't, um I didn't find the sexual [00:09:30] experience is very good. And then I ended up having I started drinking, and I was working because mom and dad didn't have very much money. So they after the one year at the boarding school at Gisborne, they said, Could I, um, go private boarding. So I went private boarding, but they had made it quite clear that I was costing them a lot of money. So I thought I'd better try and earn some of my own. So I got a job working at a catering firm, and, um, [00:10:00] part of the culture of the place was that everyone got trashed and I started drinking. And I remember waking up one morning and, um, my boss, the owner of a place he was, um, having anal sex with me. So it was pretty horrific. So I passed out drunk, and that was what I woke up to. So, um, it kind of reiterated the whole experience of, you know, that I really wasn't anything other than a toy. I remember him saying to me the next morning [00:10:30] that he says if you tell anyone about this and I'm gonna go to jail for a very long time And so I never told anyone about it until I went to rehab. Yeah. You speak with such um, honesty and frankness. Is that part of rehab? Yeah, it is. Really? Yeah. I think, um, I've been through a process a couple of times. Like when I was 26 and I went to rehab. Um, [00:11:00] Rudy, Rudy head. He was, um he has was diagnosed as being HIV positive. So Rudy was positive, and then John and I, John was his partner. John and I went and got our tests separately, but on the same day at different places kind of thing. God, that's how he did that in Auckland in those days. But anyway, we did it, and, um, we went and picked up. I think I went to the doctor and got got it. Anyway, we went to pick up our results, [00:11:30] and his came back positive. And Rudy was in rehab at the time, and mine came back negative. And then when Rudy came home, John went off to rehab, and Rudy kind of sat me down and says, right, What are you gonna do? Are you gonna wait until you get the virus as well? Or are you gonna sort your shit out now? He was quite confronting, but he was quite loving as well. And he sort of said to me, You know, um, you're gonna sort your shit out. So he basically impact me after rehab [00:12:00] and it would change my life. You know, It saved my life because John and Rudy both died by 19. Said it was 1988. February 1988. I went to rehab. It was sort of the end of 87. The crash had happened. And that was when Rudy was, um, had gone to rehab and then 88 February. Um, I can't remember. February might have been about 22nd. I went to rehab and got out the 15th of April in 1988. [00:12:30] Yeah, and went home to Auckland. But everyone was unwell, and David was looking at getting into rehab as well. He was fabulous. We we we just still had so much fun. We were We were kind of living on the edge in lots of ways because we were all, um uh fairly, um, shit. Faced a lot of the time before we got clean, and I don't think we had very good skills and how to love. We were just kind of parties and, [00:13:00] um trying to do the best we could with the life we had. But then when I got clean, I saw that there was other ways for me to live, and it got got, um, very different. So to answer the question, yeah, I did. I kind of have learned that, um my level of self honesty, um, is imperative to me being able to live with myself. I don't want to, um I don't want to end up, um, conning myself about myself, and I don't want to live beyond what I'm capable [00:13:30] of. So I found it useful for me, to be honest, so I had to go back and sort out the demons to unpack the box. So after rehab, where I started to unpack the demons and then last year, um, in 2000 and, um, 14, sort of January 2014, I fell in love with someone, and, um and it was kind of reciprocated then it wasn't possible for various reasons, um, [00:14:00] and I kind of completely came undone. I hadn't fallen in love for years, and, um, I came undone. And then I had to look at everything all over again and it was horrible. So I thought right so that I took last year. I didn't work very much, and I just kind of took the year to, um, go back and let's go back and do the bits that I didn't do last time. So I did everything this time. So I guess that's why it's a little bit, um, it's even more so, uh, front of mind [00:14:30] because I've done so much more work on it. Can you paint a picture for me of what it was like as a as a young gay man in New Zealand in the early 19 eighties, late 19 seventies, early 19 eighties, as we kind of moved towards, um, when HIV aids was was coming onto the scene. So thinking back into the eighties. So I left school in 1979 was in my last year at school, and I was 17 and moved to Wellington [00:15:00] and I. I knew that, um, the school experience had been hideous, but I knew that I had to get university entrance. And, um so I remember saying to my teacher, um, that he had tried it on, um, he was kind of playing off his bits and talking to me. And I just told him that I was out of there because I'd I'd kind of got enough sense of, um, what it was like, um, in terms of I was sick to death of being someone else's play toy, and I knew what he [00:15:30] was up to, and I just said, No, I'm out of here And it was Friday and I had to catch the bus to go back to bay, to go home, to sort out the parents for the weekend and try and cut the hedges and mow the lawns and make everything look all right from the outside because it really was such a horror horror show inside anyway. Then the sixth form came along and I was failing dismally. I was finding it so difficult. And, um, I have said to him that, um, I wasn't going to leave school without getting university [00:16:00] entrance and that we, um if I had to come back next year, that my life, his life was going to be miserable, and that was kind of how I pitched it in terms of blackmailing him. But, um, essentially, I was desperate and I I just knew that I had to pass university entrance, and I knew that he had the ability to make sure that it would happen. And I didn't have the skills or the ability to pass it myself. So I, um I kind of made it [00:16:30] quite clear to him that if I had to come back the next year, that his life was going to be a nightmare, as mine had been for the last three years. So, um, it was on the back of it that I got university entrance and I remember smoking my first joint, and it was just fabulous, you know? Everyone went away, Everyone went away. Alcohol was pretty hideous because I got drunk so easily. I wasn't very big, and I kind [00:17:00] of I just got trashed really fast. And after the experience with my boss, I wasn't keen on doing that too often. Whereas if I got stoned, I felt like I still had a few of my faculties and could try and maybe keep myself safe. Maybe I say I wasn't very good at that either, but anyway, um so I went on a train and moved to Wellington at 17 and I didn't like gay kids. I didn't know what gay kids did. You were either a hairdresser or a cook. I thought [00:17:30] because it was in Gisborne, that was all people. I saw their hairdressers were gay or the cooks were And I thought I didn't want to be a hairdresser. I didn't Really I didn't know what a hairdresser he did, but I didn't want to be a hairdresser. And I thought I could be a cock. God, I just really had no idea. I really had no idea. As a kid growing up anyway, I came to Wellington. I arrived here on 23rd of February 19 [00:18:00] 80 I've been working on a sheep station. I had $300 from working on a sheep station up and out from Bay and ended up, um Flatting These two dental nurses, Julie and Bev, who were just fabulous, you know, they were so cool to me. Bev wanted me to move because she thought I was such a lost wife. And I needed someone to look after me. Julie was I think she was a bit terrified because I was just so, um uh, [00:18:30] a little bit out there. I was. Yeah. Anyways, um, they were really good to me. And, um, I started trying to find a job, so I just went door knocking. Every day I went to the same hotels. There was five hotels I'd go to and just knock on the door and asked to speak to the executive chef and say that I wanted a job. And every day they kind of first day they said no. And the second day, they said no. And on the third day, one of them said to me, All [00:19:00] right, you can come and wash the dishes and wait until we do some training programme or something and I said, Sure, that's great. I'll wash the dishes. So I got a job washing the dishes, and then he made me fourth cook salad hand after a few months, and I learned how to, um, I went to Polytech and learned how to be I cook, but I didn't know how to live, and it was terrible. It's eating disorder because it put me off food and, um, my hands are so dirty. I smelled [00:19:30] of food all the time, and I couldn't handle it at all. And once again the the fact that I didn't know how quite to live. And I, um yeah, I just got really sick. And I think I got the clap as well. And I got degeneration of my gums and I didn't know how to look after myself. And we were going to nightclubs, you know, like I was only 17 and you had to be 20 to get into the clubs. But there was a place [00:20:00] called the Dorian Society and the do in the society. You had to be a member, and I just turned 18 at that stage. So I was 17, and in April I turned 18. And then they, um somehow I got to be a member. I don't think I was supposed to drink. My membership was kind of dependent on me not drinking, but I I did. And that was the gay stuff. That was where it all started to go [00:20:30] off in terms of me meeting people and I. But I met Barton before that, and I fell in love. And, you know, we were together for two weeks or something. It was a very long relationship for me before I kind of ran off because I didn't I couldn't have a relationship with someone. You know, I don't even know who I was and what I did know about me. I wasn't very fond of, you know. Anyway, he was good to me. People were good to me. Long before I was ever good to myself. People tried [00:21:00] to love me even when I couldn't love myself. So the thing was was that, um we'd all hang out at the Dorian Society and get shit faced because you get in for $15 or something. And $15 was a lot of money. So we'd all get shit faced because we had to. You know, you you could, uh, you pay the door fee of $15 and then you could drink as much as you wanted to. And I didn't really have an off switch. Not for many things, actually. So Yeah, I just got shit faced [00:21:30] all the time. And then I found it difficult to live because I was unwell and everything else. So So what was gay life? Gay life was really just about sex and alcohol. It wasn't really anything else other than that for me in those days and can you comment on, I mean, the the the use of kind of alcohol and drugs? Was that kind of widespread in the in the gay community at that time? Or I mean I mean, did you stand out [00:22:00] because you were doing all of that, or was that just kind of normal? No. It was very much normal. It was, either. You went to public toilets and had sex, and I guess there was a lot of people who were standing around drinking there. There was a lot of drunk people there, but it wasn't because straight guys would get trolley and then they'd go to the bogs and get a blow job or whatever it was they were trying to do or shag someone. But you wouldn't. I don't think I don't know. But I don't think people picked people [00:22:30] up to take them home and have a cup of tea. I mean it it was all around alcohol and drugs. To my mind, we just got shit faced, and then we'd jag and, um, I don't have much recollection of of shagging without being off your tips. Really. It's kind of like the two went hand in hand. So, um, and being gay, we we were kind of well, to my mind, I mean, this is all it was like [00:23:00] for me, and and, um But I get a sense that that's what it was like for most people, because the Dorian Society was where we all hung out, and that was a part of the culture. I remember saying that I thought it was a bad thing because I thought I was becoming like my mom and dad. But, you know, I kind of felt also powerless. And, um, yeah, I Mm. And I got a straight job working for an insurance company. And that was really cool because I could use what was kind [00:23:30] of left in my brain. And there was normal people there who looked out for me. There was a woman. Elma. Elma, Elma. Full name Ramage. She was amazing. She was such a neat woman, Elma. She was just wonderful. And she was like a mum. You know, she kind of looked out for me, and she had told me off if I was hungover, but, um and she was kind of worried about me because of all the guys, you know, I'm trying to think, um, [00:24:00] baton took me to the sauna, so that was another place and I I maybe we doing shit faced when we were at the sauna, we were probably stoned, but we were probably stoned. I don't remember going to the sauna when I wasn't stone, but, um, it was what it was like. We got shit faced, we got laid. And that was kind of what it was about. Um, and the sauna was a different experience as well, because you'd go there and you'd have sex with guys, [00:24:30] and then you wouldn't see them again. Yeah, it was kind of it was anonymous. So you didn't really know who they were. It wasn't very good in lots of ways, either. It wasn't very good from establishing my self esteem or making me feel better about myself. That was for sure. What else did we do? So there was kind of the sauna and the beats, and then, um, [00:25:00] the Dorian Society. It was a place called the Victoria Club where all the rich guys went. That was nice. I remember going there and thinking, Oh, that was nice. but my behaviour didn't really fit in with a Victoria club. I was a bit wild. I think I was a little bit country, you know? So I was really plain speaking, fairly direct. And if I had anyone scary in a room, I'd annihilate them. Yeah, [00:25:30] I don't think I was very good in social situations. Can you explain, or can you just clarify for me during that period? I mean, were all these experiences fun? I mean, were you were you having a good time, or was it something that I mean that you are running from something or that's a good question. Oh, where the experience is fun. Yeah, pretty much. I mean, we were just getting stoned. [00:26:00] We just got shit faced. I didn't really know any different, so I didn't know to expect. I didn't know that there was a way to have fun. In fact, being off your tits, I didn't know that you could have, uh, be sexually intimate with someone you just shagged. And it was kind of a It was almost like a social exchange. It wasn't, um loving or kind. It wasn't, um, [00:26:30] as though I had any value as a human being. But in some ways, the the interactions didn't have them either. So we were having fun. Couldn't say That's a really good question. We laughed a lot. I'm sure. I think really, We were just off our faces all the time, so we couldn't really tell. And I like my straight job. I liked that [00:27:00] I was felt like I was contributing in some way, but I didn't. Mm. I I knew how to make people laugh as well as I knew how to people make people fear me so I could manipulate by being a people pleaser. But I didn't, Um I didn't Really Yeah. I don't know that we had. Maybe we did. I don't know. I don't know. The drag queens were having fun. [00:27:30] They terrified me as well, though. They were nice to me, but they terrified me. I couldn't work them out. Really? So did you do drag? Oh, did I do drag? No, they They dressed me up once the girls, the dental nurses dressed me up and put makeup on me. And, um, I showed photos, the Polaroid photos to the queens, And they thought I looked beautiful and they wanted to dress me up, but I said no. I didn't want to be dressed up as a queen. I felt I just [00:28:00] felt so far away from who I was, anyway, that to do that would have put me into a whole new spectrum of being far away from who I was, and I felt lost enough as well. Sounds really tragic, but I just felt so lost anyway that I didn't want to do anything else that made me more more lost than I already was. Hm. Interesting. I don't remember a lot of fun. Wow. At that time, were you aware of, um, anyone in the kind of rainbow [00:28:30] community or or or just Rainbow Person that was leading a different life so that that that had, um that that wasn't using alcohol and drugs. But the guys, the guys at the Victoria Club seem to be doing OK, but they were still heavily getting. They were still drinking a lot. It seemed their main way of getting was alcohol. Um, there was some people who were gay who were leading essentially normal [00:29:00] lives and seem to be doing ok, but we all seem to be the person all the time. We all seem to be consuming a lot of alcohol. Like it was a lot of gin and tonic being drank. There was a lot of wine being drank. There was a lot of I used to drink rum and coke, and, you know, I was like, nothing years old. I shouldn't have been drinking rum and coke. It was sweet, though. I think it worked. It was terrible. I don't know if that answered the question. [00:29:30] Was it? Yeah. I don't know. I didn't really know there was no one that I was aspiring to be like. There was no role models. There was No no. Well, certainly they weren't accessible to me at that stage. No, that came later. Early eighties and HIV AIDS starts kind of coming up. Um, what are your first memories of HIV aids? I was living in Home [00:30:00] Street and I was living with John. John, You know, you've got to hear about John. John was extraordinary. He was amazing. I think he worked as a dishwasher at a restaurant. I seem to remember something about that. He was fabulous. He was so cool. He was so much fun. he was fun. He was always having a great time. But we were always off our tits, so, you know, it's probably goes hand in hand. But John, um, used to wear yellow hot pants [00:30:30] and a big fur coat and roller skates. Anyway, so I've got completely distracted. How do we get talking about John talking about HIV aids? Oh, HIV aids. I lived in this house and with John and his partner, Paul, although they had split up by now, but they were kind of still cohabitating in the same house. And there was a time magazine. Uh, I don't know how I found a time magazine. God knows I didn't read the bloody thing, But, um, there was this time magazine about this gay plague [00:31:00] in San Francisco. I think it was or something. And I remember reading it, and there was this guy that used to come around and shag me sometimes. And I remember showing it to him because he was going overseas. And I said to him, um, if you're gonna go to America, you need to to know about this. And I was sitting up in bed postcoital and kind of, um showed him and he reckons I saved his life. He's still alive, and he's still HIV negative at the moment. You know, it was pretty cool, [00:31:30] but, um, that was the first time I'd ever come across it in terms of that. And then I left Wellington in 1984. So, um, I've been working for the insurance company and they promoted me and sent me back to Gisborne as the office manager. It was hilarious. I had no idea what I was doing. I had no no idea. Thank God there was a woman up there who who was basically running the office, who knew what to do. And I was there for, like, five months. [00:32:00] And I spent most of the time cleaning because it was kind of the only thing I knew what to do. And anyway, so I went to Gisborne, and then from Gisborne, I moved to for a couple of weeks. They transferred me there, and then I got a hell out of the insurance company and went and worked for she. So it was kind of a brief time. And then I was in Auckland and then I became aware of AIDS more and I don't know if the timing is right, Really? But there was that law reform stuff [00:32:30] was happening And there was all of the, um, people who were on the street and the Christians would be on the street on the corners of their little tables and chairs and trying to get us all to sign petitions. Because, I don't know, I can't remember what the petition was about because they hated us in some way. They didn't like us at all. And it was about that time that I became, um I mean, I'd been shit face for so long, I really didn't know. And I've got this great job at the Sheri [00:33:00] and, well, I worked a lot, shall we say, And, um, that's when I became aware about AIDS. I can't remember how I became aware of it. I wasn't really It wasn't really on my radar. I think it was when the guys started getting sick because I had used condoms ever since. I talked to [00:33:30] my friend who went to the US, had used condoms, and I knew about them, and, um, I started practising safe sex. And then there was Bruce Burdette told everyone that they should do safe sex. And when I went to Auckland, they kind of knew about it. Then I felt like I knew about it really early. Um, I tried having various relationships with people, but none of them were already. [00:34:00] None of them were really successful. None of them were all successful. I keep getting trashed, and, um yeah, so HIV and AIDS moved to Auckland, And then I remember the Burnet Clinic opening, and I remember I went to the opening because I made scones and I'd never made scones before in my life. And I didn't know that I tried to make it get fat, Not fat, Um, thickening or something or doughy. And I just added more butter and more and more butter to the point where they were just yellow scones. [00:34:30] They were really, really buttery. But I went to the opening of the Burnet Clinic, and that was how I remember that. But I don't remember much more about AIDS. And then everyone was getting it, and I tried to I started as an education worker for, um the AIDS Foundation, the AIDS Foundation. I don't know. It was called the Aid support network. It was called and they, um there was this woman, Barbara Thorn. And she was she was a big [00:35:00] woman, but she was fantastic. And she was really the whole thing about aids that it made me feel like, um, I don't know why, but it made me feel like I was OK. Wow, that's really weird. It was that, um it wasn't all about it was sort of about sex. And but And it was still about alcohol and drugs because they were trying to tell us that we needed to not get shit faced so we could try and make sure that we didn't have unsafe sex. [00:35:30] But there was people who came into this circle of people that I knew that I wasn't That wasn't the parent before that who weren't just trying to have sex with me, and it was like they were would be able to Oh, God, it was like they would be able to help in some way. So I went to the Aid Support network, and I learned how to talk [00:36:00] to people about how to keep themselves safe. The thing was, was that Barbara, the aid support network in the education programme where I ended up was that we had to go to schools and I was terrified about going to their schools. You go to school and you know that Barbara was fairly big statue, big of stature, and she was commanding in a room. And I learned that I was no longer a child and that I had a voice. So it was kind of helpful in some way traumatising but helpful. Then I heard [00:36:30] a guy called Dick Johnson went to training, and he started talking about how he lost years of his life because of alcoholism. And someone was speaking to me about me and I could identify with him. And so through AIDS and through what happened, I got a better understanding of myself and that I was living a life that had a shelf life. Really, I didn't I could say that I was in trouble and [00:37:00] I needed to do something about the way I was living. And when Dick Johnson spoke about it, I thought, Oh, my God, he's talking about me because I had years missing already, and I just was so young, you know, I was, um Yeah, I'd moved to Auckland and was working in the hotels. And, you know, I was just shit faced God all the time and, um, didn't still didn't have a value. So AIDS in some ways was a Saviour because it gave a point of reference that other people could, [00:37:30] uh, reach into my life and help me. Now I want to try and understand. Just a few minutes ago, you were talking about safe sex and, um, very early on wearing condoms. But if you don't have a value if you feel lost, um, that sense of worth is not there. I'm trying to understand what? Why would I practise safe sex? Because maybe they had some value, But also I didn't want to die. [00:38:00] I didn't want to die. I mean, if I'd wanted to die, I would have killed myself if, uh, I would have suicidal at high school. If I wanted to die, I would have given up. Then enough had happened to me in my life that I could have given up. But I still had that, um, desire to stay alive. Even if I had no value, I still had the desire to stay alive. I you know. So by practising safe sex, it, um it gave me a chance to continue to live. [00:38:30] Whereas if I didn't I was going to die. That was the writing was on the wall quite early on. So it's interesting. Yeah, because there's other people who have had a similar kind of experience and they had no value. So they they let themselves be used by having unprotected sex. Yeah, so it's interesting that I didn't That wasn't my experience, but I think I was already a fighter. And I had learned how to defend myself at school even though [00:39:00] it was ill advised, you know, to turn into a hostile individual so that people would stay away. And I judged everyone who wasn't like I judged those those married men who were, um, not living a gay life, but at the same token, was it wasn't a bad idea to stay in a closet and, um, live that way. No, I think it was probably a sensible idea. And I developed a whole lot more compassion for them, as I did for myself in later [00:39:30] years. When I realised that Goodness, You know, I, um they didn't. They were doing the best they could, as much as I was doing the best I could. But yeah, it's interesting that that connection between safe sex and my self esteem, and somehow, even though I had no value and no self esteem, I still wanted to live. And I still had safe sex. I didn't want to die. Hm. Around this time, the homosexual [00:40:00] law reform was going through in 85 86. Did the homosexual law reform have any impact on you? It was a horror show because it turned a whole lot of, um, people. It turned a whole lot of people against us. Well, that's an interesting statement, but that's how it felt. It felt like, um, in my in my little world of being nowhere, you know, because I really was nowhere. Um, suddenly there was a whole group of people that now were aware of me, and [00:40:30] they were angry that I was existing, you know? So I didn't really like the homosexual law reform very much. And I I was just, um, still just trying to stay alive. Yeah, it didn't I didn't feel like it impacted on me. Um, while it was all happening. And I, you know, like people say, What were you doing during homosexual law reform? I have no idea. I was stoned. [00:41:00] I wasn't out on the street doing stuff. I just noticed those people with a petition that was scary, you know? And the hostility that it brought was, um I didn't I didn't like that, but I didn't really have any understanding of it. It didn't. It didn't create a, um a community of leaders that I then felt comfortable to communicate with or talk to or anything. And, uh, I was stoned, and I was just living my life and trying to stay alive and, um, hanging out for [00:41:30] my my friends that were like me at the time. Would you consider yourself being kind of openly gay? Openly out? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I was very. I was very out I. I don't know. There was a closet big enough for me when I after high school, I was always very gay for being gay. In those days, you had to be quite thick skin. I had to be quite thick skinned. [00:42:00] The late eighties and early nineties saw quite a large amount of sickness and death through HIV aids. How did that affect you? Hm? Well, after I heard Dick talking Dick Johnson talking about it, and it must have been about 1986 87 I moved to Auckland and it was about 80. Sorry. [00:42:30] 84. I moved to Gisborne to and into Auckland 84 end of 84 85. God knows where I was off the planet and 86 much the same. And then kind of landing with the, um, uh the AIDS support network and the education programme of Barbara and hanging out with her and getting it, just getting getting an understanding that she thought I was OK even though I was gay that she thought I was OK. I don't think Barbara was a lesbian or anything. I'm pretty sure she was [00:43:00] a straight woman from South Auckland who just had a moral conscience and she had a, um a bit of a compass and she was just cool. And she would, you know, talk to me. Like many, many, many other people have tried to, uh, talk to me. But I wasn't particularly, um, open to seeing the world through other people's eyes. other than my own. I was very arrogant in that regard too, I would think. Anyway, um, So how did it affect me? God, [00:43:30] Death was all around. Um, you know, people were dying, and then people were getting sick. Um, so when Rudy kind of rescued me, um, what she did really and confronted me about my drug using and everything else. I mean, I wasn't intravenously using. I was just getting shit faced and going out, and, um, I was [00:44:00] working in the hotel industry, so it was pretty much accepted. I mean, I had a good boss at work who kind of cared about me, but, um, I didn't I still didn't have an understanding or care that much for myself other than knowing how to put a condom on. Um, so I mean, I went to rehab and early 80 age [00:44:30] and came out in the April and everyone was really unwell. In Auckland, it seemed like, you know, everyone was dying and I wanted to stay clean. And there was so many parties and everyone was smoking lots of drugs, and I couldn't handle it. And I couldn't handle being around everyone unwell, so I moved to Wellington, moved back to Wellington. Then I became a little bit aware because I'm clean now that there's a whole community of people who [00:45:00] are not living like I did. And yeah, I hadn't really been exposed to them before anyway. So there's people who are living, not how I lived, and there's people who are living and trying to help other people, and the whole AIDS, Um foundation seemed to be happening, and somehow I got to feel a part of it. I had a partner After I got out of rehab. I was about I relapsed after five months and then [00:45:30] on AM nitrate was hideous, But I was. I'm not going into that story. There was a reason why I did, and it was stupid. But I, um I met someone who at a youth. I mean, I was 26 years old. I'm at a rehab and I met someone at a youth gathering. I was bullet people from it. So somehow I've got hooked up for a community of people because I'm clean. [00:46:00] And, um, I met a man called Peter. Well, he was 21. I was 26 so he was just a boy in his world in some ways. But he was just the most wonderful young man, and he thought I was the cats. Whiskers. He thought I was brilliant. And I thought he was amazing. He was totally gorgeous. He was, like, 6 ft two. And he, [00:46:30] um he accepted me. For all my foibles, it seemed, and for all my, um, for my story. And, um, his family were fabulous. And they kind of made me feel, uh, normal, but loved in lots of ways. They were really, really loving and kind. And, um, so the things going on, But meanwhile, I'm getting clean and I'm getting [00:47:00] a sense of myself. And, um, you know, I understand all the things that happened to me weren't right and started to get a bit of a voice for myself. So at the same time as the community is getting a voice, I'm getting one as well. We're no longer hiding. We're no longer scared of ourselves and scared of the fact we exist. And, um, that was how it was for me as well. So it felt like a really healing time for me. And I got, um I got. [00:47:30] I became a part of a community. You know, I didn't get the community. I felt like I became a part of them through the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, A centre was in Main Street and Newtown. And, um, Peter, um, he finished his university studies, and I was working as a gardener and cleaning people's houses and kind of just trying to make them make ends meet. And Barton got me a job at the electrical warehouse where they tolerated me coming, and I was completely O CD [00:48:00] with cleaning. So I was always cleaning everything. So they let me work there, and I'd cut up the cardboard boxes and, you know, when it was raining and I couldn't garden and they let me go there and I'd just work whenever I wanted to, they were so good, like so many people were good to me. And, um and I, um I stayed clean, and I became aware that there was a community of of gay men and gay women who were, um, [00:48:30] who were living their lives free. And and I felt like I was a part of them in some way. Mm. That was a revelation. and I got involved in the AIDS Foundation. Peter got a job there. He was working as an AIDS prevention worker. I was still a gardener. Um, I felt like I didn't have very many smart still, but [00:49:00] he was bright. He read all the books and told me all the plant names. And, um, it was like he was able to unpack the world for me. He could translate everything. I didn't understand stuff, so he'd say that Plant that plant, Mrs Bowie's place. That's a Daphne, the one by the by, the by the thing, you know, that's a suit of panics. You know, that's a bit of the [00:49:30] He could unpack everything. I even went to a funeral. I remember a friend in recovery. His dad died and he was a Catholic, and his father had this full on mess up in Kalla. And, um, I didn't, um I didn't understand anything about religion, but I'd gone to this mess and I came home and I said to Peter, God, there were all these people there and they looked really well to do. It was in and everything, but they thought that Jesus was the son [00:50:00] of God and that God had given him everlasting life. And all we had to do is believe that he was the son of God or something and that we'd had everlasting life. And I came home and said to Peter, You know, this is ridiculous. There was all these really intelligent looking, educated people that thought this and he said, Hamish, where have you been? It's Christianity. And I was like, [00:50:30] Really? I went to Sunday school and I never got that, you know, It was hilarious. It was It was seriously, like I had been living in this world and I wasn't of it. And he started to unpack it all for me and kind of made it, um, made it all make sense in some way. Yeah, he was a very, very good man. And his family were very loving and kind to me, and they gave a sense of normality. And they accepted the fact that I I didn't drink [00:51:00] and I didn't do drugs and never, you know, like they were always terrified and family events that I'd end up for wrong glass or something. I remember once going to drink, um, someone else else's glass of wine. I just, you know, we were It was I think it was during speeches or something, and I grabbed someone's glass and was going to have a drink from it. And his father, Peter's father, came sort of screaming across the room, and he must have been watching me anyway. They were very, very good to me. [00:51:30] People were very good, very kind. But anyway, so what happened was to the whole AIDS thing was that I got a sense that there was, um there was a community and it wasn't bad and that, um, bad things were happening to us, but that we weren't. And I got also, um, a sense that I wasn't bad as well because I realised that I was a drug addict, that I was just an addict. I wasn't a bad person. I just learned a whole lot of coping mechanisms that [00:52:00] didn't serve me well and given where I'd come from and the environment in the high school and everything else, it was not surprising that I'd learned a whole lot of bad coping mechanisms. You know, I just had to protect myself and stay alive. So yeah, AIDS was a horrible, horrible disease. And I remember going to so many funerals. But in some ways it was it's it saved me because it gave a point where I was inaccessible to help. Hm. [00:52:30] I haven't thought about it like that before. You You've talked about healing, and I'm just wondering if you could, um, kind of talk to me a wee bit about, um, kind of resolving things within yourself because, you know, emotions that are kind of coming up inside me are things like, you know, I mean, do you do you? Do you blame people in the past? Is their anger is their forgiveness is tell me how how that kind of works for you. [00:53:00] That's a good question, isn't it? Do I blame people in the past? Well, I don't know. I think there was a time when I felt really angry about what had happened. Hm. I remember in rehab, I certainly I lost all my knuckles beating telephone books of rubber hoses until my hands all bled. [00:53:30] And it was part of grief group where I was really angry at what had happened. Um, I used to have a rock down by where that cafe is, um, made. A brass monkey is an island bay, and there was a big rock down there. They used to have a sledge hammer and I'd go down and smash it. I used to call it my sexual abuse rock. It's not there because I smashed the whole thing. I just kept smashing it until it was gone. I don't [00:54:00] think that's a particularly healthy way for me to deal with anger. I certainly strained my upper body a lot. And I hurt myself a lot too physically. Hm. I think sort of accepting who I was, um, kind of came later, but really, it came as a result of other people accepting me. You know, like I found I found it immensely difficult to accept myself. You know, I had done so many things to myself. [00:54:30] Other people have done things to me. But I had done things to myself by putting myself in situations. And when I learned about, you know, the responsibility that I had in things, um, it didn't make it easier to live with myself. It made it more difficult initially, but over time I got a lot more compassion and understanding of who I was and and what had happened to me? So I didn't I didn't give myself so much grief anymore. I didn't beat myself up as much as I used to or judge myself so harshly. Or [00:55:00] others, you know, Like I said about straight men who gay men who lived a straight life. I used to think they were. I thought they were cowards and I. I really got a better understanding of that. They made choices as I made choices and they made choices. That meant that they were able to live for themselves when they were able to stay alive, whereas I was quietly killing myself. So the healing came from other people first, and then it eventually [00:55:30] came from, um, a sense of gratitude for my life and being able to live it as I couldn't before. And I think the other thing was, um, in terms of anger towards, um those who had grieved me, you know, if I look back at my dad, you know, Dad did the best he could, Given the resources he had available. Mum was the same, you know, they were extraordinary people bringing up six Children [00:56:00] in those days. and having a gay kid at the end of a pack. You know, the youngest one turning out to be a handbag Can't have been a delight for them. You know, they Dad, Dad, I was dad's blue eyed boy. I was the most one that was most like him. Hm. I remember him once saying to me, You know, um, and he hugged me twice in my life. When? [00:56:30] Before I got cleaned. Well, he hugged me once after he'd give me a threshing, and then he hugged me once in rehab, he gave me a hug, and it was the second hug I'd ever had from him. And then, uh, maybe he hugged me as a young boy. I can't remember. I never I don't even remember being hugged. I remember being hit a lot. I remember having to sit beside him at the dinner table, and if I could put a a step out of line and he'd hit me or he'd rub my face and my food and, you know, [00:57:00] I don't remember him ever hugging me apart from that time, he'd given me a hiding. He gave me a hiding because I said that, um this kid had asked where my brother Graham was, and I said he went mad, so we shot him. Just ping silly. I didn't Really I didn't want anything to happen to Graham, but I wasn't my fondest. You know, we were always civil rivalry. We were always punching each other out. And, [00:57:30] um and Dad said to me, Why did I say that? And I didn't know why I'd said it. I just was joking. And he smacked me one in the head and he'd been unwell. Dad had been unwell, and I think he realised that it was unfair. And he was taking his unwellness out on me, and he gave me a hug. And I remember he gave me a hug after he'd thrashed me. Um, so, yeah, me and intimacy [00:58:00] weren't very good friends. We were. We were strangers and the whole mechanical sex thing. So healing for me was about learning how to be intimate and how to receive love. And when Peter, I met Peter and he was, um, really gentle with me, um, it was a godsend, you know, because suddenly, suddenly I could be physically with someone who wasn't scaring me and who I wasn't scared of or [00:58:30] who I wasn't. It wasn't a a commercial exchange, you know, everything. It felt like a commercial exchange before that. So he was, um it was good. So healing kind of started to happen there. And then through that, I was able to start to feel better about myself. And then as I worked my, you know, work my own recovery programme within, um um, self [00:59:00] help groups and things. And, you know, that's kind of how it started to progress. And do you know what the lesbians as well, I don't know. The lesbians have always been fabulous, you know. Hm. I remember when a gathering of people in recovery there was a lot of lesbians here and one of them said, Oh, you'd be an honorary lesbian And this woman looked at me and she says, The only way that you're ever going to be an honorary lesbian is if you die and be born again. You know, she was She [00:59:30] was scary. But the lesbians, the woman's energy and the healing that they were able to provide was extraordinary. You know, they were fabulous. I do remember those first devotion parties And you know that woman It was a woman, that one of them the, um you know, meetings where we were all trying to organise everything and make sure it happen. Because eventually, originally, the devotion parties came out of that experience of Peter working for the AIDS Foundation and things was that [01:00:00] we started with devotion. And, um, they were an AIDS foundation or an AIDS support network, or they were a fundraiser for people living with the virus, and they were rallying point around the community. But I remember this woman once saying, you know what's going on? We're all the men, you know, We're all doing all the work. And I said, for goodness sake, haven't you realised they're all dead or they're dying? Our community leaders are dying, and it was very much a case, you know, everyone, our brightest [01:00:30] and our, you know, our most fabulous had the virus because they were the ones who were getting the sex, I guess. But you know that they, um they were the ones who we lost our We lost our leaders. In some ways, we lost. Um, we lost a lot of them, but you know, so the devotion parties were a rallying point and it was how we came together. I think we came together to to help each other heal and be exposed to each other, where we weren't trying [01:01:00] to have sex or my experience. You know, everyone wasn't like me. Of course I'm sure. But, you know, that was just my experience. So healing happened from me going to recovery meetings, and I went to them every day. I went to them every single day. I was desperate. I was desperate to not be who I had always been. I wanted to be, um, different than I had become. And I didn't want to be isolated and alone anymore. [01:01:30] I didn't want to be isolated with my anger and my hate and my, you know, my total hatred. Four people. I just found it so isolating. I wasn't very nice to be around. And because I was scared, I would just go for people's Jaguars and and, um, be hurtful towards everyone so they'd leave me alone. So I took that out of the equation, and I didn't really know how to be with people, [01:02:00] but I Yeah, it was a confusing time but people loved me before I could love myself. 1991. Now that that was the first devotion, I think was it first devotion? It must have been about there somewhere around 1991 I think I got clean in 88. I remember the hero party because Peter made me a t-shirt [01:02:30] and a single to wear it to the party. And it had, um um, something like 2. 5 years a hero because I've been clean for 2. 5 years. It was just fabulous. It was an act of many acts of kindness. He had, you know, towards me that, um, celebrated me and my recovery that made me feel good about myself, but yes. So the devotion parties, I think, were kind of happening at the same time. And we had that devotion. Um, [01:03:00] we were basically trying to have a dance party to raise money. It was a fundraiser, as I said, and we had the first one at the overseas terminal. And, um, there was Janet. I don't want to say who the people were because I might forget someone, but there was Janet and Elizabeth and, um, Mark Harrison. Oops. And Harrison and Peter and Elizabeth O'Loughlin and Janet Dunn. They were the people that I can remember. There may have been other [01:03:30] people, but they were the people I can remember who were part of the group that formed Sprung Productions that hosted the parties. Um, sprung productions came out of the fact we had a tea dance as a fundraiser in the October, and it was spring time. So we called the tea dance sprung, and, um, yeah, it was a lovely party. It was during the day. And even though I'm clean and I'm not using drugs and not using any alcohol or anything I I kind of could go along and and party because I was with Peter and, [01:04:00] you know, I felt so much love. You know, I felt loved anyway, So then we had we raised the the tea dance, raised the seed money for the party to be able to afford to buy, you know, rent a venue and everything. And we rented the overseas terminal, not the upstairs, the downstairs where the, um all the cargo area kind of thing. It was a big, old, cavernous concrete thing. It was pretty hideous, but we made it into we dressed it and made it [01:04:30] fabulous. Or Janet did. And Peter, there were so many talented people around anyway, um, they all, um we were all sitting around on Mark Harrison's bed in road in the house up there, and we were trying to figure a name for this event and because it was going to be by the ocean. Um, at the overseas terminal, we were trying to think of something that would rise with rhyme with by the ocean. I don't think we were very savvy at this point. And, [01:05:00] um, so we had this by the ocean party. Well, what the hell? So then it became devotion by the ocean, and then thank God be dropped by the ocean, and it just became devotion, and it became devoted to whatever it was that you wanted to be devoted to. So you could be devoted to hedonism or safe sex or love or, um, or living alcohol and drug free. You could be devoted to anything you wanted to be. You could be devotion to your loved one, you know, And it was really had a lovely, uh, spirit [01:05:30] that kind of captivated the imagination of people and they felt a part of and the community ran it around and wanted to be a part of it as well. And and we had it all for a good cause. The other thing? Yeah. No, I can't remember what I was gonna say, but there it was. Great. It was a great celebration. And yeah, it was a rallying point for people to heal. I think as well. And so these became annual events. I think they were annual. They came up [01:06:00] very regularly, and I know we had a hell of a lot of work. And the second one I remember was that the shed, which we called the she I don't know what the hell it was called, but it was, um, is now. And it was a big shed that was created for which I can't for the life of me, remember what it was. I just know that became a disaster and it was known as a disaster. But they built this big shed or something where papa was and we got we it wasn't me. [01:06:30] I mean, I. I wasn't the ideas person. I was just a dog who? I mean, we just go ahead and do whatever I was told, really, to try and make things happen and, um, was a part of, But they had a carousel in the square shed, and then they had this kind of dance floor surrounded by these rises within the big shed. And it was really, really neat. And we had a coffee place as well, so that for people like me could go and have a coffee. And, um, it was inclusive and it was celebratory and people [01:07:00] dressed up and it was wonderful. I do. I do remember getting dressed up for the first party. Peter quite liked dressing in drag, which I found quite intimidating because you can never work out who people were in drag. And he developed a persona which I found terrifying. But Peter, um, was also highly talented And, um, just so, um, yeah, I'd say vivacious, but it's the wrong word. He was a vivacious drag queen, but he was [01:07:30] a totally handsome and engaging and, um, gregarious man. So But anyway, so the devotion party started and it was the second one. Was it the and then the third one was that, um, shed 21 on the waterfront, the big brick building by the, um, by the railway station down opposite that old downtown Backpackers. And, um, that one, I don't know how we did it, but we built staircases between the floors and big concrete floors. [01:08:00] And I can remember there is this big staircase and scaffolding. And, um, Peter and I had made this fabulous outfit for me because, um, it was a a rainbow hook dress, and, um, I wore this with, um heels and fishnet stockings. It was quite an experience. My brother came mhm. My brother came, came [01:08:30] to that party, which was very peculiar, because it was always quite homophobic, but he I don't know, that's another story. The Rabo her dress was christened, had its inaugural out in that time, and I remember going up the stairs in her heels, and, um and God knows why or where or anything, but anyway, I wore this and I wasn't made up as a woman or anything. I was just It was kind of like gender fact. It was kind of like gender cross gender thing, but it was like we [01:09:00] really didn't care anymore. And we could just be who we wanted to be. And I was wearing it, and it made me feel good because I felt like I was fat. I wasn't, But I felt like I was I was fatter than I used to be, anyway, And, um, going up the stairs and I, I lost my balance, and I ended up going backwards down the stairs in the heels and successfully not falling over. It was quite an achievement at the time, but it was the beauty of it was because I was [01:09:30] just on caffeine, you know? And once again, we had a devotion party had this big area outside where people could go and have coffee. And it was kind of a cafe experience because Elizabeth and myself and others were keen to maintain that space. Yeah. Can you talk about that in terms of, like, organising dance parties? I mean, were you keen to have, um, areas that weren't, um, alcohol and drug? Yeah, Yeah, we we wanted to mix it up. [01:10:00] We wanted to tell, Have everyone so that people felt included. We didn't want people to feel the isolation that you felt from drug and alcohol dependence. We didn't want people to not be able to come because they would be exposed to, um to that. We didn't want to be like the door in society where you had to be shit faced to get in the door, basically where you had to be willing to tie one on So you could create an environment where people felt safe from whichever part of the community they came from or whether they were the, um, the ones who wanted to get off [01:10:30] their tips or whether they were the ones who just wanted to, um, socialise and hang out and have a good old boogie and then come back and socialise and hang out where you could actually talk to each other, where you could develop a sense of community where you could flirt where you could, um, kind of have fun. Yeah, so that's kind of what they were. And of course, that one was noteworthy. That party at shed 21 was the one that, um where there was, um, where Arthur had passed away. So Arthur was this extraordinary, [01:11:00] gregarious, vivacious man, vivacious drag queen. He was just one of them. our leaders, and he that night died and there was a, um A I'd say it was a ripple, but it was more a a, um, a sad sense when it went through that Arthur had passed away because, um, he was a performer at the last one kind of thing, you know, he [01:11:30] was always a star. So it was sad that he had gone that that night and we went I can't think of a word that describes the, um, the sense of grief that went through the place when it was known that he had gone. I do also remember Peter doing a very, very unsuccessful strip at the, um, at the event where, um, Peter, um decided that he wanted to do a strip. [01:12:00] I don't think he quite factored in how long the music went and where he was up to in the music. And he spent way too much time on the stage jiggling around without anything on, and, um, but, yeah, he was, um he was a great performer. And he, um he was totally, totally gorgeous and handsome and in every way. Hm. What else about those devotion parties? So we made shit Loads of money for the AIDS, Um, for people living with the virus. [01:12:30] And they were well supported by the community. And after that one, I don't recall having any further involvement in them. Um, and other people started to put them on. I remember going to one another time, but, um, I don't really remember them as, um things that I was a part of. I think my relationship had developed, and I felt somehow I'd moved on. And quite how can you talk about, [01:13:00] um, just the whole kind of visibility aspect of something like devotion, which is a very big public, um, showing of, of kind of, um, rainbow people. How I mean, is that important And And if it is important, why is it important? I think, um, I certainly know that the Overseas Terminal Devotion Party, the people in Oriental Bay were aware of the party, and I don't think that went down so well, [01:13:30] so it was quite visible and not necessarily in a good way at that one. there was We had things called the Love Parade. And, um, where I remember walking down Lampton Quay and it wasn't a protest March and it wasn't something that was supposed to be in your face. It was just a celebration of the fact that, um, we were there and that, you know, I guess it was legal by now and that, um we were testing the boundaries and things. But to my mind, visibility is important. [01:14:00] It's really, really, really important. And I guess that's why I used to be so judgmental of the straight man, the gay men who lived a straight life because they were being cowards and everything else. But as I say, I don't judge them so much anymore. But I do think the visibility is important because I, um I don't want people to go through what I went through. I want people to feel a part of I don't want people to feel apart from, And I think if people are visible and [01:14:30] and you know I want people to be visible who are essentially living a normal life because that is as important as it is for the, um for the gregarious, um, extroverts as well, because it's important that everyone has someone that they can not necessarily role model, but someone who that they can believe that there's, um, somewhere for them to be themselves in the universe, you know, because if they if they think that they have to be a drag queen, to [01:15:00] be out or to be a gay person, and that's going to be counterproductive for someone who's maybe a little bit introverted and doesn't really suit them, that they can't really see themselves being there, I think the other thing, I think the thing that gave me hope long before any of it really was the the um, the Netherlands, I've got to say I don't know where, how I know this or how I thought this But as a kid, I knew somehow [01:15:30] that the Netherlands someone had told me that it was OK to be gay in the Netherlands and I held on to that hope that maybe one day I'd be able to go to the Netherlands and I remember meeting the Dutch ambassador when we were having the out games here in Wellington and saying to him that you know, I don't think your country quite understands, um what it did by saying that it was, um not OK [01:16:00] to persecute gay people way back in the day before anyone else was doing it, because it gave me a sense that I was OK somewhere. I wasn't OK with myself, and I wasn't OK here, but I would be OK if I was somewhere. So I put that in the context now and you have people who are visible within our community. It was like they were the first people who were visible, like they being the Dutch government or whoever it was that was in there, [01:16:30] who was doing what they were doing to make it seem OK for me to be, um, gay here when I so didn't feel ok being gay here. So I think visibility is important. But I think it's important to be not just the, um, the extrovert. It's really important that we know that there's a there's a quiet writer somewhere who is, um, who is gay and is writing, you know, um, there's other people who are who are not, um of the ball. [01:17:00] Yeah, I just want to go back on something I said because I, uh, kind of just assumed in terms of, like, devotion that it was, um, rainbow focused, and I just want to clarify when devotion was set up. Was it targeting specifically rainbow communities, or was it targeting the you know anyone, um, affected by HIV A I DS It was, um everything was very [01:17:30] much open to everyone who was affected by HIV and AIDS. And the other lovely thing about the parties was that everyone came. It wasn't just our community who went, but it was an opportunity for us to flirt and and be naughty and to be to be out there with, uh it was some ways it was testing the waters for people who were coming along who were not from our community. They were the the pre and post gay. They were the, um, the heterosexual community, [01:18:00] the non gay community. Um, I prefer to think about the whole world as gay myself nowadays. But, you know, there is, uh, elements who are not gay, apparently. And, um, that within, um, the devotion parties. It was kind of a way for us to test the boundaries about what we could get away with without being told off. But also, it was an opportunity for them to come together with us and all of us just to accept that, um, we wanted to try and [01:18:30] stop the hideousness of the virus. But more importantly, to stop people from feeling the isolation that the virus was creating in their lives. Another very public coming together was, um or were the beacons of hope Memorials. Can you tell me about your involvement with those? Hm? Essentially trying to help Trying to help. There was a man, a wonderful man. Richard Ben, who, um, was working for the AIDS Foundation, worked with Peter, [01:19:00] and they were doing He was the one who was leading beacons of hope. And what an extraordinary visionary man he was in terms of creating an event where everyone who had died was acknowledged because you would have, um, So my involvement was really going along to the events and trying to support, um, people to make the torches or making torches. I mean, these torches were hunk of wood. Um, generally a piece of tree and, um, wrapped around. It was a whole lot of, um, fabric, cotton, um, old [01:19:30] sheets from the hospital. I think they were. And then a wrap wrapped around that was chicken wire. So that when this torch that was dipped in. Um, I think it was probably methylated spirits or something. Something flammable was, um, illuminated. It's not the right word. Lit was lit, was flaming, um, that they had chicken wire around it so it wouldn't come down and burn the person who was carrying it. So you'd have one of these tortures for every human being who had died from [01:20:00] the virus. So it was then the virus was not, uh, you know, dependent on us all being gay. And then we'd had these flaming torches, um, around the the outside parliament. Um, and it's terrible. I can't remember what the purpose of the event was other than to acknowledge and, um, uh, acknowledge how many people had died from the virus. But I suspect we were trying to get some further funding or something further from government [01:20:30] to acknowledge and, um, to help us take responsibility. And we were trying to take responsibility by changing our practises and everything else, but to try and stop the virus from spreading within other communities as well. So these flaming torches then came from the four different points of Parliament grounds and came and we all stood in a circle in the middle of Parliament. I mean, in the front of Parliament, there and in the middle, in a circle of all these flaming torches, each one in [01:21:00] me of someone. So it was, you know, a very, very spooky, haunting event. And then next time we did it, we did a Frank Kitts park, and everyone kind of came over to City Sea Bridge and came over from different ways. And we all came around and stood around the the, um, lagoon, um, where the boat shed is and things in Wellington Harbour. So it was the second one, but and we used to have the beacons up on top of Mount Victoria. And then there was beacons all over the country where people [01:21:30] were lighting. Um, the beacons, initially I think was, um, the flaming torches. And then it became the beacons with some flaming big bonfires where it was a rallying point for people to remember and also for people to to, um, acknowledge. Somehow I think I've seen some footage of the Frank, its lagoon one where there's about 100 and 75 torches around the lagoon. I think I remember 100 and 76. But yeah, it was and terrifying [01:22:00] that that many people had died, you know? I mean, I mean, in the context now of the day with, um, youth, suicide and everything else. You know, it's, um we we I'm not gonna say we got off lightly, but we got off lightly. Really? Because we we rallied and we stopped each other from getting the virus. You know, we we kind of saw the impact that it was having. Yeah. God, what a horror show. So many people died. I remember the the, um, Peter and I [01:22:30] eventually split. And, um, we split because, um, I suspect it was because I was trying to have a child with a a dear friend. We were trying. It was 1994 and, um, we were trying to have a child, and, um, he could see that the relationship was going to progress to other things. And we'd been together 5. 5 years and that, um, he wanted to do other things in his life. And he, um he wanted to go off and travel, and his grandfather had died [01:23:00] and he got some money, and he'd gone to England, and I think his world had got much bigger and mine seemed so small. And, um, he, um he it off. So with that, at that same time, I was trying to have a child and, you know, after a couple of miscarriages. God, it was awful. Um, we had two miscarriages, and, um, you know, I thought, Well, in some ways, the universe is spoken, and I'm not going to have a child, and I had to move on. So what a grieving [01:23:30] experience that was. I'm interested. Uh, I asked earlier on about you know what? Um, the early nineties were like in terms of all the kind of sickness and and and death and how you coped. I'm wondering what are the what do you think are the after effects of going through that kind of intense period of of years? Um, and also the idea of of moving on, how you know, how do you move on? Mhm. [01:24:00] Goodness. I don't think you can move on until you've acknowledged it. You know, in some ways you know what's happening with Maori and everything else. You can't. You can't say that the atrocities didn't happen. and we had to name it. You know, we had to come together with our AIDS foundation, candlelight memorials and beacons of hope. We had to get there and we had to say people's names. And we had to acknowledge and acknowledge and feel the grief [01:24:30] until, um, it didn't hurt so much anymore. Um, mhm. We had to keep talking about them. I mean, I didn't, um you know Rudy and John who got me clean, who saved my life. They died in 1991 and, um, [01:25:00] it was sort of in the two thousands. I, you know, I talked to my sponsor about my own recovery and there was so many people who were dying and I couldn't cope. I couldn't cope for grief myself. And I used to say to my sponsor about it and he'd say, Well, let's put it on the shelf, Let's put it on the shelf. And you know, there came a time in my life. I had quite a a growing shelf, and every time we'd say we put [01:25:30] it on the shelf, I'd kind of put it on the shelf and I'd think, right, well, I'll deal with it later I You know, I deal with that one later. And there came a time I. I don't know what happened, but I felt like it was time to take Take the boys off the shelf. I couldn't put them on the shelf anymore. It had been too long that they had been there already. And, um um, I don't know what to do, though, Um, [01:26:00] what do I do for grief? You know, I went to a counsellor and they said, Let's write a letter. Hello? Mhm. How how do I How would I write a letter to my thought? I didn't Really. You know, I really and John had long gone. I wasn't there at the end When they died, I went to the funerals. [01:26:30] I mean, I went and saw them in the hospice and everything else, but I wasn't with them when they died. I felt regret for that. But I also, um, couldn't cope with the grief. And I wanted to stay clean. I didn't want to, um, end up, um, back using. So I did what I could, which was to stay away. [01:27:00] And then, um and so I went to a counsellor and they said, Write a letter and I thought not going to write a letter. What am I gonna say? And I thought, Oh, I've always learned that actions speak louder than words. So I thought I'll, um I had done so much other community stuff and it had stopped and I thought I had a gap. So I went and, um, went on the New Zealand AIDS [01:27:30] Foundation board and I stood for the board and I thought, Well, if I can do something, if I can be some use if I can be useful in some way and use community connections which I developed over time from being human and being a part of as opposed to living in isolation. So I went on the AIDS Foundation board and tried to, um you know, bridge that gap and and give thanks. And remember, really, it was a kind of therapy [01:28:00] where I was constantly with the boys and, um, yeah, I did feel a sense of healing, and I went to more things and kind of acknowledge them. And then when I was 25 years clean a couple of years ago, I was 25 years clean, and I always felt bad that Rudy and John were never acknowledged in any way. Um, I, you know, not acknowledged [01:28:30] that sounds stupid, but that their lives with there was never anything. You know, we we we burn them. What did I say? We cremated them. We cremated them and we spread the ashes and there was nowhere where they were. Well, they weren't anywhere else. They would They had passed, but there was nowhere anywhere that acknowledged them. So when I turned 25 years clean, I acknowledged them by establishing a park bench up in Mount Victoria which, [01:29:00] um, acknowledged them for for, um 12, stepping me for saving my life for getting me clean and packing me off to rehab. So I wanted to acknowledge them in some way. And it's funny, you know, I'm doing this today because I I Oh, a few years before that, I'd been to Cologne and went swimming in the Gay Games in Cologne, and I went to Amsterdam and met Rudy's parents and, um, gave thanks to them for his life. [01:29:30] And and, um, you know, we talked about Rody, and and, um, it was lovely to remember him, and, um with his mom and dad and just acknowledge who he was and acknowledge the impact on my life and the fact that he had saved it. So it's funny that I should be doing this today because I rang his mum today. I haven't rang her since then. Um, you know, that was quite a few years ago [01:30:00] in Cologne. And, you know, when I rang her today because I still hadn't let her know that we had done a Memorial Park bench and partly because Rudy's dad died the day before, We did the Memorial Park bench, and I kind of, um um had felt sad about that. And, um, you know, life's other busyness has taken over, but this morning it's funny. I rang her this morning. She was grateful [01:30:30] to hear from me, and she thinks, very fondly of New Zealand. The thing I loved about meeting up Rudy's mum was she said, you know, I have no shame. I have no shame. I have no shame for my son who was gay and he was an addict, and he had HIV and I loved him, and she spoke so strongly about having no shame about her son. You know it is infectious. I had no shame about him as well. [01:31:00] I just adored him. He was a fabulous human being. He was mad. He was completely mad, as we all were when we were drug affected and living our lives. And we were pretty mad when he stopped using drugs as well. But, um, you know, I love the fact she had no shame. And Maria's dad was just gorgeous as well. They were a wonderful couple. They really were. But it's funny. I rang her today and told her. And so I'm compiling an email to send to her and her, um, and Rudy's sister, who lives in Canada, [01:31:30] Um, taking photos of the bench and of the celebration that we had, um, in 2013. Tell me about, um, uh, the support group, the Narcotics Anonymous for for gay and lesbian. Well, we don't breach our anonymity, you see? So, um, but you were instrumental in in kind of establishing this in Wellington. We had this funny old thing because we've been told that we couldn't have a gay and lesbian group. Um, and [01:32:00] in Narcotics Anonymous that we so we established one and we thought, Where the hell can we have a meeting for addicts and alcoholics? So we don't, um, you know, end up in trouble. So we went to Carmen's farewell Carmen's cafe, and, um, it was called that stage. It was called the Evergreen Cafe. And and, uh and, um, what's that street? Vivian Street and Chrissy Weak, who was fabulous. She said, you can come and have your meetings here. So [01:32:30] we had our meetings here and they had no 12 step. I know it as lesbians and gay men getting together to try and help each other, stay clean, drug free or deal with the effects of it. Because there was, um, a lot of adult Children who had been affected by alcohol as well. So we all came together, but the difficulty was that we had no, uh, we had no purpose. We had no way of moving it forward, um, to other than just staying with a disease and [01:33:00] staying with a problem, we had no solution. So we had to try and find a so, you know, find a solution. We had to find a solution. It sounds strange, but we had to find something that would give us the focus within the meetings. That was solution focused. So we, um, started. We were told that we couldn't have a gay Narcotics Anonymous meeting because you had to have one at exactly the same time as, um, another meeting. It was a bit unfortunate that that was the information we were given because it wasn't true. So, [01:33:30] um, we started an a a meeting, a gay a a meeting. And, you know, I, um, was, um, I didn't really find a a particularly useful for me because I was an addict. I was wasn't just a, um uh uh, addicted to alcohol. I was addicted to many things, and, um, I didn't really feel so comfortable talking about alcohol as opposed to talking about the disease of addiction. It seemed to ring more true for me and sit more with [01:34:00] me and I, um, anyway, so we started this a a meeting, and then eventually we found out from the Australians that we could start a gate in a meeting. So we closed the A meeting very quickly and started at a gay and a meeting which happened for about 12 years. I think in Wellington. And it was, um the still one happens in Auckland. Thank goodness. And it was a great opportunity for lesbian and gay addicts to come together. The whole thing about the the 12 steps is to carry [01:34:30] the message to the addict who still suffers. That's our whole primary purpose. Really. The whole reason for being is to carry the message to other addicts. And if you can carry, um, addict a message to the addicts of the Lisbon and gay community, I thought it was a worthwhile cause. Anything that stopped us killing ourselves. Really? So, um, so you know, it was what we did. And we had the meeting going for about 12 years. Sadly, it kind of got [01:35:00] the separatists got involved for a period of time, and they didn't cause all the straight people used to come as well because it was the best meeting in town. It was a fun meeting, and it had, um, a strong recovery because there was lots of us who were had had got clean. And, um then the separatists got involved and said that they didn't want all these straight people coming to the meeting anymore. So, um the straight people, sadly left and, uh, went and started another meeting on the same night and which is custom [01:35:30] that you have a lesbian and gay meeting on the same night as so that people who are not of that persuasion can go to another meeting and don't need to feel uncomfortable. But so But of course, um, with most things where things like that happen, it killed it. Um, where you poison? Something with fear. Um, in that way, it killed the meeting and it took away its mojo. And, um yeah, eventually it closed. Why is it important to, um, have [01:36:00] a AAA separate space for, say, gay and lesbians or or or rainbow people? That's a good good question. Well, to my mind, um, it's really interesting because, you know, I've come completely full circle on this because when I was in, uh, being assessed and everything else and Eden Clinic in Auckland for the rehab and I was meeting with him, there was this wonderful nun there who would say to me, You know, there's a lesbian and gay a a meeting, and I said, I don't want to go. And she [01:36:30] said, Why don't you want to go? And I said, because why would I go to that community? Why would I go to that community who had done nothing but, um, rape and pillage me since I was young. I couldn't see any point in going near them the the gay people who are in recovery. Um, because I was so angry and felt so hurt from what had happened as a young person and I was still 26. I wasn't that old at that stage, but, you know, [01:37:00] and, um, it took some time before I would go near the gay and lesbian meeting. And it was interesting, actually, when I, um, went to the meeting and I met a wonderful man Ken, And sadly, he's passed now. But he was, um, a wonderful man because he had a Land Rover, and I thought he was very, very handsome and remembering that I have no point of reference other than sexual. At this point, I've never had a value as a human being other than being able to [01:37:30] have sex with people. So he, um I remember hitting on him and him saying to me, Oh, we could jump over the back of a Land Rover and have sex now, but I don't know that it would keep you sober. I was mortified. He'd called me on my shit, and he was like, one of the first people who had ever acknowledged me as something other than just the, um, someone to have sex with. And it was so refreshing, so, so refreshing. So although I didn't want to go to the lesbian and gay a meeting in Auckland because I didn't want [01:38:00] to be, um, to expose myself to the gay who would do what they did to me kind of thing. God, very victim, isn't it? But I, um I didn't find that when I went there at all. The people were were, um were well were. Well, Ken was very well, and, um tried to give me the love and care which I hadn't experienced before. So starting up a lesbian and gay meeting, I wanted to ensure that it did the same kind of thing that it did, [01:38:30] what Ken would have done, which was we didn't hit on each other. We were just there for each other. There's this wonderful saying in recovery that we do not net the wounded. We don't bayonet the wounded. It's a horrible, horrible image. But it's kind of like what you do if you try and have sex with people in recovery from the meetings and things, because what that means is that you stop them from being in a safe place. And, um, you know, for goodness sake, by the time someone gets to, [01:39:00] um, in recovery from drug and alcohol dependence, the last thing they need is anyone else to try and, um, use them in that way. We do need loving but not sexual loving. Yeah, and I was grateful that it's never been a part of my story to fall in love with anyone in recovery until January last year, when I fell in love with someone who was a newcomer, and the effect on me almost took me out. You know, the effect of the impact on me meant that I fell in love with someone [01:39:30] who, um who I couldn't have a relationship with. They were so new in recovery, and it was reciprocated initially, um, but it was reciprocated only because they had no idea that they didn't need to. They also didn't know that they didn't need to fall in love with someone in recovery to get love and caring support. So it was a It was a great little lesson for me, but it did almost take me out. Hm? In the [01:40:00] meetings, do you find that there are common threads between people? I, I I'm thinking, Is there are there common threads between rainbow people that are, um, that that are dealing with addictions, if nothing else. The humour and the stories. Yeah, we we generally we've come from the same places we've been to the same places. Our stories are not as similar, though across the whole of people in recovery, most people have [01:40:30] have, um, had some horrendous experience which has put them over the top. Or, um, it's not all. All people in recovery are, um, not from, um, trauma. Um, the same as all people who are lesbian and gay haven't been sexually abused. Or but there are some common threads, but I mean, humour is one of them, the ones that comes together when we come together and we're in recovery. You just There's [01:41:00] a lot of noise. There's a hell of a lot of noise. We have a lot of fun. And if we celebrate, um, the fact that we're all clean. I've been to the the first meeting I went to in a in a meeting a lesbian and gay one because I'd come from that experience of those bigots on Queen Street. I was hideous Christians who were telling me all sorts of horrible things about me, which I believed in some way. Um, that when I got clean, um, I thought [01:41:30] I had great difficulty accepting the fact that I was a gay man going to be clean, uh, because these Christians had all told me that I was an abomination and everything else, and I couldn't see how I could possibly escape that. And I went to, um, a meeting at a convention in Sydney and, um, a lesbian and gay meeting at the convention. And there was 60. I swear there was 60. There was, you know, 1. 5 1000 people at the convention. It was a very big [01:42:00] convention. And there was 60 lesbian and gay people in this meeting this lesbian and gay meeting that I went to and I was in awe. I was totally in awe. I can't believe that there's this many people who were clean and we're OK and that it works for them because II I had difficulty with accepting that there was going to be some greater power who would accept me and love me as I was [01:42:30] as a gay man. So, yeah, I loved it. I just loved it. I just cried. I just cried, cried in relief and cried in gratitude. I was just so grateful that they were there and I've never forgotten them. You know, I've been to world conventions now. I've been to conventions in San Diego. I've been to conventions in Hawaii, I've been to Philadelphia and I've been to lesbian and gay meetings where I see rooms and rooms, rooms of hundreds of people who are lesbian and gay, who are clean [01:43:00] and, you know, it's OK. It was a lesbian woman who came to New Zealand. I don't know how clean she was. She must. She was like a god to me, and she was a lesbian woman who was clean, and I remember just looking at her and thinking it's going to be OK. We're gonna be OK. I'm gonna be OK. It's gonna be OK to get old as a as a gay man and living clean. It's gonna be OK as long as I keep staying clean. Of course. You know, if I try and wreck my life again, you know, chances are I'm gonna [01:43:30] be, um, in a grave in an early grave. But, you know, at 52 now I look back and I reflect, And I think, My God, I've been so fortunate in so many ways. And, you know, the early life experiences that I had the hideousness of it all, um, I've survived, and, um, better than survived. I've lived a happy and full life. So how have I done that? And what have been the main ingredients that have created that sense of, um, of happy and free now [01:44:00] is because I am. I became a part of a community. You know, essentially, I became a part of a community, a wider community. But essentially, uh, the other part about it is that I've become a part of a a lesbian and gay community. But I have gay men who love me for who I am and not relationships. You know, all my friends are bloody couples. But I, I have a community of gay men who love me for who I am [01:44:30] and accept me for who I am. And yeah, I seem to add value to my community. I'm not isolated. I'm certainly not alone. God, sometimes I think I'd love to go to a town where I didn't where I could walk down the street and not know everyone. You know, I thought last year I thought after I I thought I'd love to go and live somewhere where I don't know everyone. And I went to Costa Rica and I was going to go and live there. And I thought I learned Spanish and moved to Costa Rica [01:45:00] and I'll be anonymous and no one will know me well, within two weeks, I felt like I knew everyone. It's quite a small community there. And I stuck out like the proverbial I. It was terrible. And I thought, Oh my God, I've just got to accept that I'm living in Wellington and I know lots of people because I've been around a long time. And aren't I fortunate that I have people who will come and say hello to me. Who will, Um, if I'm sitting in a cafe will come and join me, and I'm [01:45:30] never alone anymore. And I'm never alone because I'm loved. I'm not never alone because people are running to get away from me. I'm sure there's some that do run to get away from me, but, you know, it's just because they think I want something from them or I want them to do some fund raising or something you mentioned, um, greater power. And I'm wondering, um, what are your thoughts on, uh, greater power or spirituality or religion? What does that mean for you? [01:46:00] Um, well, clearly, my early understandings of religion didn't go down very well. I loved singing in the In the choir at Saint Matthew's Anglican Church in Masterton. I had a very good singing voice, and I loved singing, but I didn't have any understanding of religion, and I don't really profess to it now either. Peter told me as much as I know about Christianity and I didn't really feel that I want to take it any further. [01:46:30] Um, but a sense of you know, a sense of spirituality in God. I have an extraordinary, strong faith. Now that there is a power that's loving and caring and greater than me, you know, it's not. It's not, um, sitting on a cloud watching my every move. Thank goodness it would be a bit tedious for him or her. I'm sure, um, but I do have a sense that there's a power that's loving and caring and greater than me, and it's kind of it's kind of part of a 12 [01:47:00] step recovery, really, where I have to, um, I do have to I do have to have a sense that there's some power that's loving and caring and greater than me, because without it, I sort of do have, um a sense that, um I just become some, you know, egomaniac again. I quite like the, um the sense of relief I get from not being, um, [01:47:30] the most important person in the room all the time, you know, not explaining myself very well. Um, I get, um if I just rely on my own judgement all the time, it's fine, You know, I have quite good judgement now. I'm not really doing a lot of things that are wrong, and I don't I can live with myself and sleep with myself in the bed straight. Although I do like to curl up and cuddle a pillow. But the, um [01:48:00] But my sense of who God is is, um is really just that. Just the power that's loving, caring and greater than me. And it accepts me for for who I am and all my eccentricities and imperfections. I don't I don't, um But I do have a very strong faith. You know, I don't worry about a lot of things anymore, because, I, I don't think that God's gonna take care of things. But I do have a sense [01:48:30] that, you know, if something happens and something else will happen, and if something happens and it's bad, then something else will happen. It balances it out, you know. Hm. Do I have any other? I don't really have any, um, strong sense of religion. I know that there's churches that do lots of goods and Andrews on the terrace. Goodness, what a helpful bunch of people they are. You know, trying to find a venue to have a a an affordable meeting for a community. Where do [01:49:00] you go to you go to a church. Um, and some of them, um, seem to hold hold, um, hold a place for people. You know, there's other churches who I wouldn't give you the time of day for. There's lots of churches who would probably be happy to stone me, but I don't care about them. That's none of my business. You know, their life is none of my business. Their beliefs are none of my business, and I don't clutter myself with them. Um, I really have no interest in them. [01:49:30] I do have a sense of who I am, and it's important that I live within my moral code and do what's right for me. Because if I go outside of that, um, I won't be able to live with myself. And, um, you know, I think about what I did with all the, you know, drug using and everything else. You know, it was just a coping mechanism. All it was was a coping mechanism that I learned at an early age. So that then, um, [01:50:00] I could cope. I celebrate the kid, the kid who was at GIs Boys High School, dealing with all that I was dealing with. I celebrate his decision to get stoned. I don't think it was a bad choice, given the options available to me at that stage in my life. I think it was probably a sane move. Get shit faced until I could take responsibility for myself and get well, you know, I'm just glad I didn't suicide. I'm just so glad [01:50:30] I didn't suicide. So is there a god? Well, I don't know. I still don't know and I don't really care. But I do have a sense that there's some power that's loving and caring and greater than me. And if that is, you know me and four other people getting together or me and one other person getting together, then that's the full extent of that power. That's enough for me. It's as big as it needs to be today. I live a daily programme. I don't really need to worry about anything more. I just have to stay clean today, [01:51:00] and I just have to get up in the morning and make the decision that I'm Hamish and I'm an addict and given my life's experience, it's pretty natural that I might think some peculiar things during the course of the day. But, you know, I just hand them over to my higher power and ensure that I don't take action on them. And I try not to entertain my head too long about some of the things that are counterproductive to happy living. When I start to get self obsessed and think about, you know someone's out to get me, [01:51:30] I know I'm in a bad place and I'm probably best if I just let that one go as well. So, yeah, I've kind of learned over a period of time to not listen too much to my head and to go for good things about myself and other people. And I think that's where God lives. If there is a God, what do you think recovery has taught you? How long have we got? It's taught me so much, I think, um, [01:52:00] well, I think from from going through the steps and looking at my life and having the opportunity, the privilege really to reflect on it and get a different perspective other than the one that I went through with the first time, um, it's given me an opportunity to be more compassionate about myself and treat myself better. But it's also given me an opportunity to be more compassionate about other people as well. So as I look at my mom and my dad, you know, I see that, you know, Dad was a victim [01:52:30] of his circumstances and how he was brought up, And, um, you know, I'm not saying that he had a bad upbringing, but he was a product of that upbringing and learned certain ways to deal with life that perhaps, you know, less helpful for him as a as a as a man, Um, and Mum the same, you know, and them coming together. I don't think it was a, um A, um It wasn't a perfect union. Or shall we say So, [01:53:00] um, me being able to look at it in hindsight has given me and And also look at it with some maturity as well. You know, I can kind of see, um, that they did the best that they could. You know, the other things that it's given me is it's got, um, given me an opportunity to be a part of a community, a community of recovering addicts, and, um, which has meant that I've been able to be a part of other communities. So now I'm able to be, I mean, an active Well, it's pretty much happened [01:53:30] quite quickly with Peter and everything else, but I was able to be a part of a a, um, a lesbian and gay community that could kind of love and accept me as well. So the recovery community, then you've got the lesbian and gay community. And then I've been able to be a part of many other communities within the wider context of the world. Really? You know, understanding how the world really works. Um, but having being a part of recovery first is, you know, was essential. I I just [01:54:00] being in recovery has meant that I've been able to learn to forgive myself as much as others and, um, and move on the two thousands. Um, saw you doing quite a lot of, uh, sporty, sporty stuff with within the community. And I'm thinking particularly about the, um, different strokes. Wellington, the the swim team, but also the Asia Pacific Out games. Can you tell me about those? Yeah. [01:54:30] Yeah. Interesting times. The the gay Games happened in 2002 in Sydney, so backing out the bus to that because that's kind of where it all happened was that I was doing a particularly large project at work and was busier than all hell. And I, um I went to Sydney to between the Olympics and the Paralympics, and then I went up to Turtle Cove to go and have a holiday. And when I was up there when I was in Sydney, I picked up a brochure for the Gay Games. [01:55:00] That was happening in 2002, and I thought, Wow, the gay Games And, you know, I was the gay kid at school. I had never done anything sporting in my life. I was terrified by the showers, the whole experience of being in that area, you know? So the idea of ever doing anything sporting had never entered my mind. And then when I saw that, I thought, Oh, my God, I've got this hell busy life. I'm committed to my recovery, but it's really [01:55:30] busy as well. And I thought, I need to get some balance where I get some time for me to do something entirely for me. So, um, when I was up at Turtle Cove. I thought that in my infinite wisdom that I would do something in the Gay Games in 2002 and came home and wrote on a piece of paper and had a conversation with a dear friend of mine and says, I'm going to do this And I said, You write on your piece of paper what you're gonna do and lo and behold, we both exchanged paper. We both were triathlon. [01:56:00] Now I had never swam. I swam breast stroke at school, but not particularly, um, effectively. And I've certainly never done freestyle. I had never run in my life with my wrists down. I'd always I just had no idea how to run and cycling I had cycled, but merely to get to school and back and to get to get away from all those bloody, horrible kids at school. So I'd never, um, cycled like on a on [01:56:30] a bike that you were trying to go fast to race other people or anything anyway, so I was learned to swim. I went and had swimming lessons. I joined the running group um, the front runners group and I found another community, and they were wonderful. You know, I really, really loved the, um, running group. Nigel. Nigel, who was running the the running group, was just so encouraging. It was so wonderful. Even though I felt like I was a Heffalump running beside a bloody Whippet, he was amazingly [01:57:00] fast, but he was very, very gentle and kind. So I trained to go to that to go to the Gay Games in Sydney in 2002 and learned how to ride a bike and do all the transitions. And I went to triathlons. And you know what? As gay as Texas as I am, nobody cared. Nobody worried that this this very gay man and I am quite obviously gay was coming along to their triathlons [01:57:30] and competing, and people were very kind. And, you know, I got a flat tyre and people helped me change the tyre. And you know, all sorts of things I just had. I was surrounded once again by people who were just kind and wonderful. So I did that. And then Oh, and I competed in Sydney and I did quite well for myself. I had to swim the 1. 5 KS with one arm because I'd I'd pop my shoulder. I'd pop my rotator cuff two weeks before him doing [01:58:00] sprints, so I couldn't swim that, um I couldn't. I was competing, but I knew that I wasn't going to win anything. But I competed anyway, and I did a really good run. And I had a fantastic 40 K cycle and 10-K run. I did really, really Well, um, but the thing about it was that the training and the whole experience of spending time on my own meant that, um, I was doing something specifically for me and physically, it was really, really good for me, you know, because my body started to change because I just, you [01:58:30] know, got more and more blimpy as I'd got in my forties. So I, um yeah, I had this amazing experience of learning how to swim and everything else. So you get yourself a bunch of because the other thing was a swimming coach was this woman barb at Kilburn pool, and she's just fabulous. She's a She's very, very comfortable in herself, Lesbian will say, and she's somewhat on the butch side and somewhat on the terrifying side as well. But She [01:59:00] was great. And, you know, she got us all swimming and our Speedos and everything else and as a collective group of, um of, you know, mixture of society. And, um, I felt more and more comfortable, you know, And I got to be a part of a community. I was also running with Nigel and the with the gay running group, so I sort of got a sense of how important it was to be a part of. And then, um, after that, we went to, um we There was a few of us went [01:59:30] to, um, the Asia Pacific Out games when they happened here in, um, Melbourne. So and that was in 2008, February 2008, and we were there competing, and I was I'd given up triathlons by this time because I'd had a very nasty incident with a steer in a rodeo where I, um I went to a rodeo in Canada. And for the life of me, I cannot I find it more useful to go to an event and be a part of, so I'll [02:00:00] always send, um email ahead of time or ring people up and say I'm coming to your event and I want to volunteer. I don't find it very useful not drinking and not taking drugs to go to an event and not feel and just feel apart from I like to be a part of, So the best way to do that is to volunteer. So I went to the rodeo and I said I'd volunteer well, I volunteered to help out, but I ended up in a row beside the competitors and I got talking to the competitors and, well, I used to ride when I was a kid on the horses [02:00:30] and everything else, and I thought there's 5000 Canadian dollars I could win if I could stay on a stair for six seconds or eight seconds. I can't remember how long it was. It didn't seem very long to me at the time, and I thought I could win 5000 Canadian dollars and that would really help me pay for my holiday. Well, I worried the next morning when I went down and there was only eight people on the stair riding list and I thought, Gee, there's 1700 people here. There's only eight people riding stairs. Uh oh. It's got to be harder [02:01:00] than I thought. And, um well, I, um the first steer ride I did. Um I, um they've got quite they're like, two between £1800 and £2300 are really big stirs. And I got quite pointy backs. And because my muscles were aligned for triathlons, not steer riding as soon as the stair started backing it, um, split my synthesis pubis, which is a cartilage behind [02:01:30] my pubic bone kind of thing. That when women give birth, there's lots of chemicals that are given to the synthesis pubis that make it, um, flexible and open up. Well, I wasn't giving birth, but my God, it opened up, and it was very, very painful. And needless to say, long story short, I, um, wasn't able to run or ride for, um, 18 months, so I could only swim. So, going to the games in Melbourne, I was only swimming, but when we were at the games, [02:02:00] Kevin said we could do this in Wellington, and I was like, What? What are you talking about? We could do this in Wellington. He says, Yeah, we could We could we could host this event, we could do the Asia Pacific Out games in Wellington. Well, I said no, we couldn't. It's madness. We we've just run ourselves ragged. And he said, No, no, no, We wouldn't do it like this. We'd do it like our way we'd do it our way. It'd be OK. Well, we did. We decided to do [02:02:30] it. And, um, there was four. There was David, David, Kevin and myself were the original four who put in the bid. And through the process of putting the bid in, I met a wonderful man who could read and write because he was a a, um, English teacher. Martin and Martin, um, proofread our bid document. And through him, um, we decided to form different strokes. So different strokes is, um it wasn't called that initially. God knows what it was called initially, I can't remember. We were trying [02:03:00] to be clever, um, by creating that name or they were Anyway, So we've got different strokes, Wellington. So if you get a bunch of gay men and lesbian women swimming in very little clothing because swimming you don't swim in a lot, it's either Speedos or a pair of shorts or something, and we've got all our body images and our age images and our everything else images. You know, it's a real, um it's very confronting for people to come together, so anything we can do to make that experience be easier is kind of what [02:03:30] I've been about. Essentially, I just believe that, um, anything that stops me from feeling isolated and alone and helps others feel a part of a community that loves and accepts them when they don't love and accept themselves as, um, kind of useful. So that's why I've continued to be a part of different strokes and continued to work. And then we had the out games here, and then we had the Rainbow Sport and Culture Weekend, which is happens every two years, [02:04:00] Um, here in Wellington as well. We share a Tams Cup and the DS W Shield. We swim between Auckland and Wellington, but a friendly competition. But basically it's about people just looking after their personal fitness. And you know, if you think about how much depression and how many people are mentally unwell, a lot of it can can be helped or assisted by feeling a part of a community that cares about them. And the thing is that of what's happening with all of the apps and [02:04:30] everything else where people are grinding and growling And, um, what the other scruff and everything else that you know that those things just don't lend to people feeling a part of. They kind of go back to what I experienced as a young person, which has just been used. And, you know, I don't think it's a way to build a community or for people to get some esteem for themselves, um, or their community. So anything that we can do through community groups, through sporting [02:05:00] activities, through people actually coming together and, um being able to share their lives in a meaningful way is kind of what, um really smokes my tyres and gets me out of bed in the morning and makes me feel good. So finally, what? What gives meaning to your life to my life now as really my friends. And it's difficult as I you know, as I get um, as you know, [02:05:30] um, all my all the friends, which I have who accept me as I am, really, I don't um I have a sense of myself, and it's OK, but living with a disease that tries to kill me, I have to, um, stay connected with, uh, people who are who are supportive. [02:06:00] And I've found that, um, lasting friendships. I mean, I'm a good friend to have as well, in terms of I put a lot into friendships. But, um, having friends is, um is, uh is kind of what keeps me going, really, I know, and it kind of always reflect on, you know, people, heterosexual couples, and they end up having families and everything else, and they think [02:06:30] that we as gay people, are going to end up all lonely. But, you know, we have a life of being a part of a community where we're not reliant on Children to give us a reason to live or to get up and get out of bed or get going on the day to take them to their football practise or their tennis lesson or whatever or their choir lesson. We live a life as part of a community where we, um, have [02:07:00] supported each other all of our years and been a part of each other's lives for many, many years. Um, and I don't see myself as being a lonely old gay man. I see myself as being a gay man who, um, will be a part of a community. So anything I can do to try and ensure that that community stays in good health is, um is useful, I think. And, you know, it's funny because I'm going to, um, after all [02:07:30] these years leaving Wellington and moving to, uh, live in Australia. But essentially, I'm going to live in Australia at the the largest. Um, well, the smallest Well, the medium size. I'm going to live at a Turtle Cove resort to manage the resort to try and ensure its financial viability, and that it's there for the next generation and that it's appropriate to that generation as much as anything. You know, we always have to be looking at any product [02:08:00] and anything that can, um, yeah, so I can I can be there And, um, I'll miss my friends terribly terribly, and it's the only thing I worry about. But you know what? I've got quite a few friends over there already in Cairns and in Port Douglas. And, um It's my experience that I, um I kind of, um I make friends quite easily, so it'll be OK, but you can't beat friends that have been with you through a generation [02:08:30] or two or a decade or two who kind of know you And, um, you know, I miss my sponsor terribly. You know, my sponsor has been my sponsor for 22 years. He's a wonderful heterosexual man who's, um, who's loved me through, um many, Many, um, times of working the 12 steps and kind of seeing me go through things. And yeah, it's really, um it's going to be an interesting time, but [02:09:00] yeah, I feel in good heart. And I feel like I've done lots of prep work in terms of, um um, cleaning house and, um, getting things in order for my own self. And, um, yeah, I look forward to being there to welcome the next generation to Turtle Cove and and welcome anyone who wants to come and visit.

IRN: 835
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_pride_community_honours_2015_part_3.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004332
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089626
TITLE: Rainbow Pride Community Honours (2015) - Part 3
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Adrienne Girling; Alison Laurie; Alofa Aiono; Amanduh la Whore; Elizabeth Kerekere; Fuimaono Karl Pulotu-Endemann; Gareth Watkins; George Mapplebeck; Jac Lynch; Karen Harris; Kevin Haunui; Margaret Sparrow; Mark Beehre; Peri Te Wao; Rangimoana Taylor; Sue Lytollis; Tīwhanawhana; Virginia Parker-Bowles
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Adrienne Girling; Alison Laurie; Alofa Aiono; Amanduh la Whore; Aotearoa New Zealand; Carmen Rupe; Chanel Hati; Chrissy Witoko; Dana de Milo; Elizabeth Kerekere; Fuimaono Karl Pulotu-Endemann; Gareth Watkins; George Mapplebeck; Jac Lynch; Joey Kingi; Karen Harris; Karen Te Wao; Kevin Haunui; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Mark Beehre; Meow; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; Out in the Park (Wellington); Peri Te Wao; Queer Trans* Fight Club; Rainbow Pride Community Honours (Wellington); Rangimoana Taylor; Rev. Jean Malcolm; Sue Lytollis; Tapatoru; The Glamaphones; Trans* Body Reclamation Project; Tīwhanawhana; Virginia Parker-Bowles; Wellington; awards; community; honours; recognition; volunteer; youth
DATE: 10 February 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Meow, 9 Edward Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: Part 3 of an honours evening which celebrated people who have made outstanding contributions to the queer and takataapui communities of the Wellington region. The evening was split into three parts: part 1 and part 2 are also available online. A special thank you to Out in the Park for allowing us to record this event.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Is, um, Joey King are here tonight. It's joy making way to the stage. No, um, I'm going to acknowledge Joey King, um, who has been put forward by a from the trans Body rec reclamation project. It's a, um it's a peer support group for trans people. And, um uh, he wanted [00:00:30] Joey to be recognised for the work that Joe's been doing. Not only with, um, trans folk in the communities, um, bringing people through Queen Queen, um, the work. The work that's been done with young people in the communities. And also Joe's, uh, has a project with schools around, um, around breakfast, Uh, for young people in schools, [00:01:00] the young people in our communities are fantastic. They work, they work across, Uh, you know, LBGTFIQ. I never go there. There's a new name quilt bag for it, But I'm not I'm not sure about that quilt bag. Um, and Joe is one of those people who works within our communities and also with other communities and bring us out. It makes us visible within other communities, [00:01:30] too. I think there's a whole lot of us here tonight who do that. And so for Joe and for all of us. Can we have a round of applause, please? Ok, Yeah. I'd like to, uh, invite one of my favourite people here tonight. You're all my favourite people, George Maple. Beck, can you come up, please? [00:02:00] Speaking on behalf of Queer Trans Fight Club and they invited me to be part of that, but yeah, I don't know. The Clash went with for a while, and then it stopped being my excuse, So thanks, Favourite. Wow. Um, I just want to sort of reflect that the swimming guys were on here before and they were talking about how sometimes [00:02:30] you're not that much of a sporty guy. And how sometimes, like, if you're queer or trans sports can be challenging. And I think that's kind of what Queer Trans Fight Club is about a little bit as well. Um, for those of you who don't know, it's kind of like a DIY Wellington based fight club. Sort of self-defense. Really, um, in Masha's group, and we're not your Tyler Du fight club, So we're not just there to hit each other, so there is a bit of that, but [00:03:00] it's kind of a more of a fun friendly place to share skills and learn new techniques. So we do everything from pro wrestling to kung fu to boxing to Brazilian jujitsu to Yeah, we'll give. We'll give it a go if you if you're out there and you have a have a thing that you do, but, um, yeah, uh, I just wanted to ask, So why tell us if you would like to come up? [00:03:30] Awesome. So, um, Sue kindly ran a workshop for us, Um, on self-defense, um, at the Newtown Community Centre, which is really awesome for you to volunteer your time. But, um, we had really positive feedback from the session and opened up a dialogue to talk about the stuff that [00:04:00] makes us feel afraid or attacked and what to practically do in those situations as well as how it makes us feel in those situations. And I should mention that Sue has decades worth of some similar work in self-defense. Basically, there's, like, a whole, like a whole movement of Sula thas. Really? Yeah, but people out here who have she's run workshops [00:04:30] for back in the eighties and stuff when I was yeah or something. I don't know how old are you. Oh, don't ask. But yeah. Anyway, basically your fearlessness and your confidence. Despite your small stature, despite the shoes, we're basically an inspiration. And thank you so much from our group. [00:05:00] Do you want to say something? What an amazing night This is. Um I can barely see anyone from here, so I don't know how you do it, you two. But, um, when I was asked to do this particular workshop and I've done a few interesting ones [00:05:30] in my life I did some anarchists in London where I had to go through the hole. They grab your piercings. This is what you do, uh, right through to sex workers and punks And, you know, from the 30 odd years since I was 10 and then on my wonderful student, who I honour you and your journey asked me to do this [00:06:00] fight club. I like the idea of the whole fight club thing. I think we need a dike club anyway. And then I, I thought Oh, yeah, OK. And it was a really weird day for me. I'm not sure why, but I showed up and it was a bit of a weird space, and suddenly there was, like amazing people and energy around me, and I was like I was thinking, Oh, shit, my binary around male attacks female had to be challenged. And it was around all the different ways that the alphabet [00:06:30] community I really like that term is challenged and hurt and verbally and physically and psychologically crushed, tries to be crushed and how we can crush that. So within a moment, it was like, Wow, this is great because there was this beautiful energy of these different people around me, and so I just I had a great time and I I think the group did. And let's do [00:07:00] another one. So thank you very much. And today is a special day for me, not only for this, but it's the one month anniversary of Heather and Helena's one year wedding anniversary. Thank you, Melissa. For six weeks, me and my wife, we did the wedding thing. So you know, it's just really special. Everything about tonight is special, and thank you for nominating me, and we'll keep on fighting. [00:07:30] Come on, let's give a pig head just like fabulous When, um, when out in the park, we're talking about having this event tonight and I was sent forth to find the people that I needed to speak to to get it going. Um, the first person I spoke to was, um, in fact. And, um, the next person I spoke to was Kevin [00:08:00] and Kevin has been the person at the end of my Facebook messages where I've gone. Kevin, should I do things in this order and and he's just come back, um, really promptly and given great advice and just been so helpful pulling together tonight. So I'm really grateful to Kevin. He is invited to the stage now on behalf of lesbian and gay archives Gans to present for their two [00:08:30] nominations. Oh, did you hear that? 00, no, I'm the same. I'm totally the same creek Creig. Oh, he didn't creek. He didn't creek, though. Cos you play tennis. Yeah, OK. Um, yes, Kevin, [00:09:00] who is my name? I'm the chair of the, uh, Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand Trust. And we're honoured to be a part of this occasion alongside all the other community community groups. Um, that have spoken tonight and those that will follow. Um, before I talk about the nominations. Um, just a little bit about lay. It started off as an initiative very similar to the way that this night has started [00:09:30] in terms of, uh, you know, a group of people, um, who were, um, together in 1977 that developed a research library, and that was a national gay rights coalition in 1977. And they, they, uh, created the Lesbian and Gay Rights Resource Centre and that was placed into the care of the trust. In 1984. An arson attack in 1986 highlighted the need for secure accommodation [00:10:00] because people were always going to attack our stories. So play games, um, came out of that that trust, and it hoped to secure safe and secure accommodation through the Alexandra Turnbull Library and the National Library. So that's a little bit of the background. And and I guess the the reason why we have, um, it was formed as a result of, [00:10:30] um, lesbian and gay communities in New Zealand who wanted an archive repository for personal papers of lesbian and gay individuals and also for organisational papers of lesbian and gay groups. Um wanted to actively collect records and facilitate the access to the the same records in order to advance learning about ourselves as a community, uh, on the subjects of sexual [00:11:00] orientation, behaviour and identity. And in 2015, you know that, um, or purpose of lake ans includes all the alphabet communities that we have here in New Zealand. So, um, again, I'd like to to just stress how things like tonight start from the initiatives of people like ourselves here. The nominations that we have tonight are are are people [00:11:30] who, um, lay against on us because of their active advocacy and working and highlighting to our communities. You know, the the importance of having a place to preserve our memories and also a place where these can be accessed and used by our communities and new Zealanders so that we can improve the world we live in. The first person, uh, that are, um, going to nominate is Alison Laurie. [00:12:00] Now, I'm just going to say a few things from the CV of Alison. And that should really highlight um, the tremendous amount of work, uh, that she has done and still does for our community. She's been chair of the lesbian and Gay Archives [00:12:30] of New Zealand, or UH, from 2005 to 2011. She's been chair of the Armstrong and Arthur Lesbian Community Trust for over 13 years from 2001 to 2013. She's been a member of the National Advisory Group on Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Policy and the Ministry of Social Development. Um Wellington 2005 to 2008. She's been a founder and a coordinator with others [00:13:00] of the lesbian community radio programme Wellington Access Radio from 1984 to 2001. She's been part of the National Gay Task Force in 1984 to 1986 part of the homosexual law reform campaign. So she's an activist in human rights and been an activist in the civil Union campaign. She's been a founder with others of the Sisters for Homophobe Equality um, she New Zealand, New Zealand's first lesbian organisation in [00:13:30] 1973 and she was a founder with others of the Circle magazine, New Zealand First, New Zealand's first lesbian magazine in 1973. And the other thing which is really important is She started the first lesbian and gay studies courses in Australasia in 1991. Um, so these became later study. What more do I need to say about Alison Lowy, our nominee from Lake Ann for community honour? [00:14:00] Uh oh. Would I get a microphone? I get a microphone. Yeah, uh, I'm very honoured to receive this acknowledgement. Uh, it's been a privilege to work, [00:14:30] uh, to improve circumstances for our communities. In many ways, it gave my life meaning, and it was important for me to make a difference and to see change when I came out in this city in 1957 when I was 16. Because I'm just gonna I'm gonna be 74 next birthday. I'll tell you what. It was a very different place. It was [00:15:00] not good, but we stand on the shoulders of those who came before us, and there were people who went before me, and their task was hard. Uh, and many of them did not live live to see the reforms they fought for. Uh, and their names are not known to most of you, but their names are recorded in the archives of Gans. And that's why organisations [00:15:30] like Lagan are important because it is important that we know our history because we don't know our history. You know that to tourism, then you you doomed to repeat it. But too often that has been the case that that our communities have established a decent way of living and that's been smashed and destroyed and forgotten. And then we've had to reinvent the wheel and let us hope. And when I look at the young people [00:16:00] now and I think about how when I was 20 in this city, uh, a group of us sat and said, People are being born right now and those babies being born now, they're not gonna have to go through what we've been through. Well, that's two generations ago, and I think a lot of things have changed, including the fact that we can be here tonight and we can have a parade on Saturday and all of those kinds of things. I'm sorry that some of the people whose names we should [00:16:30] be remembering, and I hope that if these awards continue and I do want to thank Jack and the others who put these awards together, But I think It is a wonderful idea. Um, I hope we will remember some of those names. Um, you know, I, uh I would like to, for example, um, say that Jack Goodman, who fought tirelessly for homosexual law reform but never lived to see it happen. Uh, Barry Neal's, uh, [00:17:00] and and Paul McGill. Uh, Barry wasn't especially a friend of lesbians, but we were invited, always to his parties, and they were. And they were the founders of gay liberation in this city. And I would especially like to acknowledge, uh, Diana Sands because Diana negotiated with Carmen to to get the premises for the first Lesbian Club club. 41. That Pauline was one of the founders of, uh, [00:17:30] Diana was a good close friend of Carmen. And Carmen is somebody else whose whose contribution to Wellington can't be sufficiently acknowledged. Car Carmen with Carmen's, uh, coffee bar and the balcony. Always making everybody welcome lesbians, trans gay men and Diana, who who had parties [00:18:00] who did everything and who really, really thought there should be a club and negotiated with with Carmen that we could have those premises. And also, uh, my dear cousin like myself. Uh, E water. Uh, who had wonderful parties here? Uh, so many people coming from the country through Wellington, holding parties, believing always that things could be better somehow, even if we were in the closet then. And even if everything was against [00:18:30] us, somehow it could be better. And it has become better. But you know, the bottom of my school. Well, it needs to take the light and pass it on. We stand on the shoulders. I stand on the shoulders of those who came before me. And there was a future generation who will stand on our shoulders. And we must fight to keep these reforms. And this, uh, society, this community we have established now which I think is wonderful and I think the young people are such a marvellous [00:19:00] hope for the future. But vigilance. We must be aware. And we must be certain that we keep these reforms. Do not let it slip away. Alison Second nomination as [00:19:30] a person who is a documentary maker, oral historian, writer and photographer. You know, he spent over 20 years, um, in audio related industries, producing numerous award winning radio documentaries, including portraits of composer Douglas Li and Carmen Lupe, along with documentaries on homosexual law reform and diverse UH, things such as The Queen of the Whole Universe. The Very Queer Beauty Pageant. [00:20:00] He has undertaken rainbow related oral history projects, including Recording the Life of Histories of People Born Post Law Reform, documenting the beginnings of the AIDS Support Network, now the New Zealand AIDS Foundation and recording the history of the AIDS Memorial Court Project in New Zealand. I'm talking about, uh, Gareth Watkins. [00:20:30] Yeah, yeah. Has set up an organisation called Pride New Zealand dot com. And the aims are to document rainbow lives in New Zealand through audio interviews and event recordings, to make those recordings easily accessible to the public and to help preserve rainbow heritage by making the collections available to archives in the future. Lagan had no trouble at all in nominating, uh and honouring [00:21:00] Gareth Watkins for community honour. Um, for somebody who's 6 ft four, I'm quite shy. So, um, bear with me. Um, I had three thoughts. Um Well, no, I had two. I had five thoughts. First two thoughts are, um thank you. Um um, for having this event, this is really fantastic. And also the, um the the the parade [00:21:30] and the festival on Saturday. Um, and thank you for, um, for the nomination. It's really humbling. And especially to be here with, um with a, um the other three thoughts I had were one was that, um for me. Um, I get a lot of my identity from listening to the recordings. Um, that pride NZ does, um, I. I find that listening to other people's stories and trying to work out where I fit in, Um, and just trying to get understanding, um, is really important. Um, [00:22:00] often, it's the quiet voices that have the most profound things to say and and often in large situations, you don't actually hear those quiet voices. Um, so I think it's, um it's it's really nice to be able to hear, um, particularly on a on a website or, um, in the archive, Um, these voices because, um, sometimes they get lost. Um, the second thing was I. I often think, um, what would voices What would rainbow voices have sounded like 100 years ago, You know? What would they have said? What language would they have used? [00:22:30] How would they have described their daily lives um, and to think that in 100 years time, um, people are actually going to have the opportunity of hearing rainbow voices. Um, they're gonna be able to hear this event, um, tonight because, uh, it will go into la ans and it's through organisations that like la ans that, um, allow our voices to travel across across time. So, um yeah, big ups to to and and hopefully it it thrives. Um, and the third thing I thought of was, um there was a documentary [00:23:00] a couple of years ago about HIV a ID in San Francisco called. We were here. And that title, um really, uh, just stuck in my head because I think it sums up a lot of what I do in terms of, um, putting markers and sign posts and querying archives Not only but also places like Papa making sure that the Rainbow Voice this is actually present in those archives. And I think that's a real challenge for all of us to, um, to to make sure that our voices [00:23:30] are actually in these institutional, um, institutions, um, so that someone in 100 years time can look back and say that we actually were here, Um, and that we are here, so thank you. Oh, wonderful. We are getting through it, Ladies, if you are, how about standing up? Just stand up, stand up and [00:24:00] turn around. It's really quite difficult. Those seats, isn't it? And stand up. Yeah, Just turn up and just stretch. That's it. OK, now you can sit down. Now again. Speaking of rainbow Voices, can I ask Mark beer from the glamour phones to the stage, please. Many of you [00:24:30] here will have heard the glamour phones perform and some of you are part of the choir or have been part of its previous incarnation, the homophones. The crime began, uh, in 2007 and grew out of my experience with Auckland's Gay and Lesbian Choir, which I've been part of for 10 years or so before I came to Wellington. And it was such a fantastic experience that when I got here, I decided to try and get a men's voice, [00:25:00] a gay men's choir together, and that began in our lounge room. In 2007. The choir grew. We had our first public performance in 2008, sang in well in Auckland as part of an Australasian, uh, choral festival in 2010 in 2011. Uh, we hosted the sing out, um, coral festival and workshop here as part of the, uh, the out games. And [00:25:30] and it was at that point that we decided to become a mixed voice choir. We welcomed the women to join us, and we became the glamour phones. The choir's really gone from strength to strength. We've now got some 50 members. A group of the choir went to Dublin last year to sing as part of the, um, various voices Coral Festival. We've had, um, [00:26:00] uh, concerts in Wellington and Riki. We've sung at events like the AIDS Memorial Concert we've been part of out in the square. We've sung at the Outtakes Film Festival. So the choir is established as part of our, uh, Wellington queer community. From the outset, our conductor, Jean Malcolm, has been a played a key part of, um, [00:26:30] leading the choir of being the person who was at the front of our musical direction. She's an old friend of mine that I've known for many years, and sadly, she's not able to be here tonight to receive the award that we've nominated her for. But Jean's commitment over seven years to leading the choir to growing with the group, growing from something that started as a very small group to something that was a very large group and much very different from [00:27:00] what she initially set out to lead dealing with the changes in the choir's, uh, Constitution with Grace and, um, and AAA and always seeing herself as a servant of the choir rather than putting herself forward, uh, as a as someone, uh, a personality. She saw herself as the servant of the choir she bought into [00:27:30] our vision of in inclusivity, openness and participation. The musicianship is, um, really of of a very high standard, And even so, she was able to welcome all come to the choir, which was part of our, um, our ethos. So Jean stood down at the end of last year, and we farewelled her with sadness and also with great gratitude for the, uh, seven years that she put into leading the choir. So it's Jean Malcolm that we're honouring [00:28:00] tonight. No, do not forget. This is I've just been reminded that by that Hamish that this is still at the door for $10. I think $10 is a fabulous book. There's only 80 of them. And, uh, I think one of them will go to one day. But, [00:28:30] uh, for ever more I'm actually looking straight at you. Alison, I should be looking at, uh uh, Kevin. Yeah, you know, so there's only eight of those place. There's only $10 for the booklet, right? $10 cheap. And if you notice the, um, logo here, that's by someone in the room called Ray Y going to designer [00:29:00] head to road. I'd like to invite Ellison, Laurie and Ray Moana Taylor up for one of our favourite groups to I don't know. I don't know Me, Uh, when we, um we look at a group like [00:29:30] it is a very inclusive group and the people who are there, we come to enjoy ourselves. We come to actually share knowledge we come to share if you like what we call light wisdom. And in Maori, we are the only people in Polynesia who built houses with verandas. And the reason was, quite simply, [00:30:00] this In Polynesia, you stand outside to acknowledge the earth and the sky. Once we get here, we get the first winter and we thought, Oh, we'll build a veranda so we won't quite be outside, but we won't be inside the other thing on those on the on the shape of the houses on the front The right hand side is what we call. Um this is what we call, I suppose in English [00:30:30] um, the male element And this is knowledge And the other side is that you know what? The female side is not knowledge. This is wisdom and we don't get them mixed up by bringing them together. Hopefully we have, which is a greater understanding [00:31:00] and a greater knowledge of all peoples and of all thoughts. So that is what I want to say but also to, as we heard tonight, those people who have lost people [00:31:30] to all of those young people who are up here today You are the hopes for us. We now say you with us. We are here. But for [00:32:00] those who have become a little older but we still have things to give. You may not think that we do, but that the old net will keep coming. But we need the new net, which is you to go out and gather those things which we need [00:32:30] yes, to right here. And on behalf of I want to, uh, call up, uh, our first nominees. Uh, Elizabeth, [00:33:00] I'm coming down. I'm coming. Hi, darling. There you go. A and Elizabeth, uh, were both active members of the lesbian communities in Wellington before they [00:33:30] met at the Laugh Festival. And that is the Lesbian Activities and Recreation Festival in 1992. A is best known for her sense of humour and love of games and sports. Those of us who were at the civil union in 2006 will remember the quiz that ran throughout the day rather hard for some of us, uh, who didn't know the answers [00:34:00] to a lot of those questions. Uh, Alo played for Amazon softball and Amazon basketball for many years, uh, and has been a leading light in the development of lesbian, uh, and lesbian sports in Wellington. And actually, uh, yeah, further than that, too. Uh, and, uh, with Elizabeth, Uh, she was actively involved in Team Wellington for the Gay Games in Sydney. And that [00:34:30] was a A very important event, uh, with uh, many of members of our community, uh, taking part in the games. And they've also attended games in Amsterdam, Chicago, Montreal and Cleveland. So they've been tremendously important, especially a lot in the development of sport. Yeah, and still playing. I think I [00:35:00] can't hide it honestly. And Elizabeth, uh, is known for activism, uh, particularly for and with queer and trans youth. Uh, and, uh, she was one of the founders of trust in 2000. Uh, and that's been, uh, a very important, uh, organisation, uh, which has, uh, continued on. And she's also, uh, both [00:35:30] of them have been very active in, uh and running and organising conferences, conferences, uh, and putting many of those kinds of together, especially for young trans people and young activists. And that's been a tremendously important, uh, work that they've done. Um, and they've both been at international conferences around the world, including doing some work for the United [00:36:00] Nations. They make a great team, Uh, and despite living in Gisborne, uh, because they've gone, they've gone back to, uh, to Elizabeth's home area, but they still remain connected to the Rainbow Communities of Wellington. and usually here for every, uh, major event. And yeah. And, uh, soon, uh, Elizabeth is going to be flying [00:36:30] off to New York. Uh, yeah. Tomorrow. Yeah. And, uh, she will be, Uh uh, She's part of a national weaving project and some of her work. She'll be going off to New York for the opening of her work at the United Nations. In fact, uh, and after that, she'll be taking up a scholarship in the in the United States, and that would be the longest that they will ever have been apart. [00:37:00] But as they say, what's three months in 23 years? But they have they They have been so active and so important in our communities here in terms of so many things that they've done. And I'm I'm very honoured to be able to speak to their award tonight, and it's absolutely a joint of bow, [00:37:30] and they're gonna have to walk down holding it together. Stay together. Yeah, that's right. OK, and so now I'd like to invite Oh, Oh, yeah. Um, my name is, uh everyone knows me as a um but I've never been acknowledged this publicly, so my mother is telling me to use my full name. [00:38:00] Um, and just briefly, uh, to all the young Pacifica. Um uh, people that came before me. Wow. Uh, I'm I'm one of the middle aged ones now. So, um, I I know our community is in safe hands. So, uh, lover, uh, carry on. And, um, to my partner, I'm a bit of an impostor. I'm her groupie. I am her number one fan, And I am gonna be, um, a little bit lost for three months. But, [00:38:30] hey, like Alison said, three months in 23 years is around about half an hour. It's never been mass. It has never been a strong point, but I just briefly Sorry. I know. You know, there's only around about 20 of us left. Um, thank you to everyone who organised this. Um, but a big shout out to our best, um, Carry and Casey, who have to travel back to well past their bedtime. Thank you, uh, to our best Michelle and Phoebe again. Well, past their bedtime, [00:39:00] they had to go and tuck in their little one. Um, you have to travel back. And, um, to some of our old mates, Uh, Val and Jack, Uh, love you guys. Long time. So, um, I'll, I'll hand it over to these guys, and, uh, we always love, Uh, firstly, I want to do a shout out to everybody who's been honoured tonight. I feel in very, very good company. [00:39:30] I also a shout out to my sisters out there. Thank you. And even though I am in a monogamous relationship with this one, I would just like to acknowledge how much I enjoy the butch aesthetic. Thank you so much. And I want to acknowledge all of that. Many of the people who have been acknowledged here tonight [00:40:00] have been our organisers. Our activists, I want to send, uh, to acknowledge all of our butch women and all of our trans sisters who for many, many years before that, leading up to they put their bodies on the line because they chose to live their lives. So I want to particularly acknowledge Dana and Jennifer and any of the rest of our and sound and and all to all of you [00:40:30] who are still here. Way to go hanging in there. This is the problem with an inclusive community, people, other people and this, even in this country, would have had a youth night. They would have had a Maori thing going on over here. They would have had a Pacific thing over here, and then somehow the rest of the community doesn't include all of us together. I think Wellington is a way of operating that when I go and I talk at things and conferences all around the world, that's something that I talk about because I'm really proud of being part of that. The fact that I'm from [00:41:00] and live in Gisborne seems irrelevant to my connections here with all of you, I wanted to just say this dress I made this, um, it's It's a tribute to who was the is the goddess of women's arts and also of childbirth and was sung to her and said to her at the birth of Children. And so this here is about I want to to acknowledge the weaving together of our communities, and that has been such [00:41:30] a big part of that and has three main goals to tell us to build our communities, to tell our stories and leave the legacy. And so when people have talked about our young people here. Uh, you're not separate from us. We are thankful that you can keep up with us because it's not like we're going anywhere. Oh, yeah. So I'm gonna go to quickly go to New York tomorrow. [00:42:00] Um, yeah. Uh, I wish everybody an awesome year, and I just will never, always, always be proud of the model that we create here in the city. I think it is unique. And I think what does? And the way that we work and to weave our community together as a model and a that I feel compelled to tell the rest of the world about anyone who wants to come with me and do all those things. Let's all do [00:42:30] it, you, holder. You both hold her. Yeah. She doesn't hold anything I do with the car. It's not the point. Yeah. Yeah. [00:43:00] And now I'd like to invite up to the stage, uh, car and to. And I should perhaps begin by saying that period [00:43:30] and Karen actually started their relationship in my bed. What? Where? Perry was house sitting And what? And that was the beginning. That was the beginning of a wonderful relationship and a relationship which has been so important [00:44:00] for the Trans communities, not only in Wellington, but for New Zealand. So I'm very pleased to have been able to facilitate a small contribution. Yeah. So, uh, Gryphon, the foundations of, uh, their previous support work with FTM and on top, which is, uh, ongoing transgender [00:44:30] outreach project for the NZ PC in the late 19 nineties. And it grew from conversations within the Maori trans communities, as well as between themselves as an ageing trans couple. And even though I think they're quite young from my point of view, uh, they they are ageing, you know, they're not as young as they were. That was amazing. [00:45:00] So it became evident, uh, when organising the black and white ball in 2005, which was a fundraiser for that wonderful, legendary, uh uh, icon of our communities. Uh, Chrissy We Yeah. And the and the black and white ball in 2005 was a fundraiser for the Chris Memorial Trust. And that was a huge gathering of Maori trans, Uh [00:45:30] uh, communities attending that event at the and some of the conversation among uh, the community was about isolation, lack of support and connection so that in February 2010, uh, Karen and Perry launched their website, and the meaning of Tara is triangle. Um [00:46:00] and the goal was to correct and communicate with, uh, with trans people and the vehicle to do that was and the meaning of that is we or everyone. And this is a bimonthly online magazine, Tato, which became an instant success and now has a global readership. It's very significant. In 2011, uh, produced their first Maori [00:46:30] trends calendar, which was a lovely calendar. And yeah, um, which I used throughout the year. And, uh, it was a promotional resource, uh, for the uh second Asia Pacific Art Games. And due to the success of this calendar, launched a second calendar in 2012 in commemoration of Carmen Taris long term dream, um, to have a community of LGBTI people [00:47:00] similar to a papaya where members of ageing communities can live independently under the guiding principles of love, respect and these three guiding principles have been present throughout the work of since day one. And what's unique about is they receive no funding and they're driven by their passion and they have selflessly worked and done so much for the trans communities and therefore for all [00:47:30] of our rainbow communities. Thank you. You what? I will speak on behalf of us both. Here, Um we do what we do because we love our and you're our Ah, [00:48:00] for us. It's about love. We love our and love we use. We're referring to more So it's about support. It's about support, It's about empowerment. And mostly it's about respect that we use every opportunity to include those and everything we do with. And [00:48:30] we're a proud couple. We're proud of who we are. We're proud of our Maori trans community and we acknowledge our at the back and Jennifer in this as well. For us. We acknowledge what's been said tonight that a lot of work has been done. But we also hear, like from our dear friend Marty Mitchell. There's a lot to be done, and we'd like [00:49:00] to be in that mix as well. We thank you, and we acknowledge, uh, this award. Uh, we'd also like to take the opportunity to acknowledge two people who are very close to our hearts who have mentored us and who have supported us in our personal lives and in the goals that we're striving to do. And they are again, and [00:49:30] every now and again you meet someone who is quietly works. They don't say much, but they do an awful lot in the community and one of those people. For me there's a very wonderful person called Chanel Hui. She isn't [00:50:00] she is there for everyone. She works with the New Zealand prostitutes collective. She goes out, she works with people. She works, she advises. She helps. She is selfless in her work. She goes very quietly, but she goes to just about every event where she feels she is needed or when people ask her, Please, [00:50:30] can you help? Chanel will go there. She also swings a mean point, I'll tell you that, and I've never done this before, But when you're in you boys, you're gonna learn the Poe and you're gonna do haka as well, and that's fantastic. Chanel is really shy and she is also very busy, and so she couldn't be here [00:51:00] tonight. But I'm going to ask another member of the to please come and accept this award because Janelle has asked you, Dianne, If you will please come and accept this award for Janelle. [00:51:30] They're not great to all right. Um um, Diana is another one of those shy people. She doesn't want to talk, but she also does a lot of work. No, this next man does. He is pretty good. Let me just tell you just a couple of things first. Now, do I [00:52:00] Too far at all your home, Not you. No. That's just his connections with the Maori people. Yeah, Kevin Holy really is one of those people who is a stalwart, And he he is one of the few people you know has a gentle strength. [00:52:30] He doesn't raise his voice, he listens to people. He listens to what is needed. And in the 19 mid 19 nineties, this young fella joined in the first LBGT sort of dragon boat race, and he was one of those young ones. Or 2001 comes along. And then he's in and by he's still there today. He also has worked for Lisa. He also [00:53:00] is at university, um, completing some of his studies. Now he has worked in both businesses. He has also worked for nonprofit organisations. He is for us as many groups do. People come and go. People go away for a while and come back. And Kevin always welcomes you every time. His patience [00:53:30] he willing to learn his willing to listen to people is one of his great gifts. Ladies and gentlemen, please put your hands together for Kevin Ho. No, my how I how I how I how much? [00:54:00] Uh um I also, uh, am honoured to to accept this in the presence of our, uh, the elders in our community that are here tonight, the elders in our community who are not able to be here tonight in front of the youth of our community who are the strength of our community, Uh, in the years to come, um, for us [00:54:30] who are around the ages that we are now, um, who will become the pillars from which others in our community can leverage off and can leap frog off to do the things that they want to do. So, um, I remember when I first started to associate with within Wellington. Uh, and I remember and there were people [00:55:00] of that ilk. Um, and we all mixed up really Maori Pacifica. Um, having a good time? Uh, the first time I met, uh or, um, was was back in those days. So we're all of that. I'm of that era. Um, but I'd also like to acknowledge, um, my other, um, cohorts that have been acknowledged tonight because they really [00:55:30] are the strength of as well. Um, they had the vision and the foresight to to think that we, um we do have a place in this community, and this community needs us. And so that's why we're here. Um, at that time, [00:56:00] Alright. Some of you will know this song, and we would like you to sing it with us. But let me explain to some of you who don't know that all the people stand together together let us seek light. Let us seek wisdom [00:56:30] and respect and love for one another. We can do it together if you wanna stand and say no. So [00:57:00] I did have you all [00:57:30] you so know Yeah. Yeah, time. [00:58:00] You Yeah, We Yeah, as we say in Maori, when we say to you, we mean have life, have energy. So we're gonna say to you and don't go out back don't. You were, [00:58:30] as Elizabeth said, you know, it's been part of inclusiveness is the fact that we want to everybody to be part of the ceremony. And so we're a little bit over the time, but, you know, we can see or catch up [00:59:00] tomorrow. Out in the park has hosted tonight's event. They partnered with community groups to bring it together. We now like to invite Virginia Parker bombs, a driving force behind the fair permits. From there to the state, I've spent most of the evening in tears. Actually, I'm [00:59:30] so proud to be part of this community, and it's because you're fighters. You fight for your identities and you fight for your place to stand. And I'm in awe. Just beautiful, beautiful evening and a wonderful reminder of how much we mean to each other. So thank you very much. Um, I would really like to thank all the groups that nominated recipients of the honours [01:00:00] tonight. Um, we acknowledge all of your and it's not always a party being queer, even in Wellington. We understand that, um, particularly for our young people, they need all the support they can get. It's been really important to acknowledge people making their significant contributions to our communities. My congratulations to, um, all of the recipients of the honours tonight, and especially to Pauline and Pat's, um, chosen [01:00:30] W and blood. It's quite an historic occasion has, And that has been drawn upon, um, earlier as well. It's gonna be the first of many more honours events, particularly for 2016 when we have, um, the time to celebrate 30 years of homosexual law reform as well as 30 years of the fair. One more plug for the booklet. Please buy the booklet at the, um, at the door. It's gorgeous. And it's [01:01:00] also gonna to commemorate the fact that you were here at this very moment making history in Wellington. Yeah, a huge thank you to all the volunteers as well who helped make the event happen. DJ, Bullet, Sarah Toia, Johnston, Mary Jo, Karen, Adrian or Kadri as we're now calling them, um, the performers Jackie, Catherine and Taren and fit as well [01:01:30] a huge thanks to Damien and James and his team at me. Um, and we so owe you. You guys have been great and I loved how you've been tapping along and grooving as Well, it's awesome. Um, and of course, to our fabulous hosts, the graceful car, The gorgeous Amanda, who's down the down, the back there and, um, the handsome Jack. [01:02:00] Thank you all again and see you at out in the park on Saturday. OK, Jeff, you need to stay up here. Um, can Karen Adrian, basically, I just go there. Adrian, can you come to this stage? So these two are behind the parade if you're organising yourself to be part of the parade Outstanding, Outstanding [01:02:30] self. Ok, um, this evening we would also like to make sure that we have honoured Virginia Virginia Park bowls this evening. The Junior Packer Bowl is so famously fabulous that she really only needs one letter to be known by. That's a V. We're out in the park. We like to nominate our leader, the head honcho, [01:03:00] the boss, the big cheese. Or as we like to think of the one person in the meeting who bothered to wear fabulous shoes. We would like to recognise Virginia for her ongoing time, commitment and support to numerous events in the Wellington queer community, but particularly to the annual out in the square. Now park event and the out games out in the park has grown and expanded over the past few years, and this year will be the event's biggest year. Yet [01:03:30] this sustaining and growing of the event has been managed and driven all along by Virginia. Virginia generally shares her time, and she shares her skills of project and people management to ensure that a large community event such as out in the park is professional, yet retains its sense of fun, sparkle and community spirit. It's never an easy task to manage community groups. Yet Virginia does this with a relaxed, passionate, warm and engaging style, which allows others to voice and grow their skills and ideas. [01:04:00] Virginia fully encourages new ideas, although right now I think she's, I suspect she's kind of regretting the day she said the words, Karen, do you really think we could do another parade? Virginia has an amazing ability to hold and manage a huge amount of information, um, and to to have a never ending to do list. I've got to know Virginia over the past year, um, of [01:04:30] being in Wellington and can comment on her passion and commitment to the out of the park event. But really, there are numerous others who know Virginia a whole lot better than me. So I asked others in the out in the Park Group to comment on why we feel it's important that she's being recognised tonight. And these are some of the comments that I received Virginia. A person with sparkle who brings communities together with a magnetic personality, tenacious drive and a love for people. Virginia is wholly dedicated to and passionate about growing communities [01:05:00] in positive ways. Virginia, an amazing, hard working team player who is always full of energy. I honestly don't know where she gets her energy from, who always incorporates everyone and who has advanced out in the park to a whole new level. This year. I only have one word to describe Virginia. She is a superwoman. It's actually four, and that was from the person who runs our accounts. Um, Virginia has a special way [01:05:30] of being in charge without being in charge. She has a handle on every aspect of that in the park, while also being kind, encouraging, lodge fun and fabulous. She's really got it going on Virginia, she's hot. I'll check who put that one in, Jack. So all in all, all of us out in the park, we have no hesitation in nominating Virginia for an honour tonight. She is an inspiration to everybody in the queer community [01:06:00] and to anyone involved in organising community events. So, Virginia, you rock you. Oh, [01:06:30] and we have one other surprise nomination. Um, so I'll just say a few words about our contribution to the, um, starting the parade this year. So we haven't had a parade in nearly 20 years in Wellington. And, um, I heard about the parade from Virginia, and she told me that Karen was going to be leading the parade. And when I started, when I heard that, I said, Oh, I need to I need to join. I need to help. [01:07:00] And I thought I would be on a team of maybe five people running the parade and it turned into two of us, um, leading the charge on the parade. Um, and now we're known as Adrian. Um, but there are 20 or so people on the committee for out in the park, and we all work really hard on our different aspects of the parade. We meet almost every week and have a lot of really good meetings. And and everybody [01:07:30] really deserve to be deserves to be thanked and honoured tonight. Um, but there's one person who has been really, really amazing for Karen and I for the parade. Um, and, of course, that is the fabulous Amanda Lahore. Please come back to the stage. Amanda. Yes. And to honour [01:08:00] Amanda, Karen is going to don a wig. No, no, no. It needs to go to the left of it. Yeah, I'd like to say a few more words about Amanda. Um, Karen and I really started parade planning in September. We're both from out of town, out of country and [01:08:30] Virginia hooked us up with Amanda and said me, Amanda, she would probably like to get involved, and from the second we contacted Amanda, she has been behind us 100% more than 100% if it's possible. Um, and she has just been amazing. She's devoted her time, her energy. She has done fundraising. She's fabulous, as you can tell, but behind the scenes, she's even more fabulous. She [01:09:00] has just done so much for this parade. Um, and for her in the park in general and for us, Adrian. Um, and she's inspired our fashion since. So So we really, really, really couldn't do it without Amanda and those wings. Did you see those wings tonight? [01:09:30] I almost fainted. I don't know what I'm gonna do on the day, um, Karen saying I'm not fainting. Um, we have five amazing leading ladies that Amanda will tell you a bit more about, um, maybe, um, but she pulled together and invited to be to lead us in the parade. Um, some of them are here tonight, and they will all be wearing amazing outfits. If you saw the photo shoot, Um, [01:10:00] the photos from the photo shoot recently. Amazing outfits with those wings that Amanda was wearing tonight. So you do not want to miss the parade? Um, so that's all I will say. Thank you very much, Amanda, for everything. Do you know what? I was sitting there and I was thinking, God, is it getting hot? She's wearing PV C, and I tell you what I'm leaking in places that you just don't want to know about. [01:10:30] This was such a huge surprise. This is Honestly, this is such do You know what? It's very rare that I'm lost for words, but I'm actually lost for words. This is a privilege to work with you girls, honestly, to be part of Virginia team to be part of our Wellington gay community. I think that we see precedent in our country for dignity, style, class and sophistication. Thank you. [01:11:00] But like Adrian was saying with the parade, when the girls come and talk to me about the parade, I thought about our drag history, our transgender history and the from where we come from, the attributes are many. I talked to Donna de Milo, who was sitting at the back, but her bum got sore, so she went home. She is now 72 years old. [01:11:30] Is that right, Karen? 72. And congratulations to you, too, too. Um, Dana Mino was 72 years old and she was instrumental in leading the walk. I always look at it like this Donna, Carmen and all the girls from that era. They walked in the shadows so that I can walk in the sun. Yeah, I had a conversation with [01:12:00] Donna once, and she was telling me how she bleed on the streets of Wellington. That's not figuratively. That is literally bleeding on the streets because of her blood and many others in the transgender community. I now walk and glide, actually, along the streets of Wellington because of the confidence, the mana and the car that Carmen had. I now walk in her footsteps. I now can bathe in the sun as we all can. History is changing. So [01:12:30] what I decided to do was get part of our from the past. Come and I asked Georgina Baer, We all know her. Yes, and I said to them, Let's make history. Let's get people from our generation. So we've got Donna, who is in her seventies, who is in her sixties. I myself am in my fifties. Then we have Lee, who's in his forties, [01:13:00] and we picked a young girl new to the drag community. Fabulous. So when you see us coming down in the parade, it's not just five people from our community. These are five different members from our gay history, and we are carrying the mantle and the flag this year for Virginia Karen and Adrian's vision of how fabulous Wellington is. They say that Wellington is absolutely positive. [01:13:30] And we celebrate diversity. And with this you've celebrated my diversity. You've celebrated who I am as a person. And I thank you so much. I thank the committee. I thank Carl for goodness and for standing next to him. I was quite nervous, actually. Really? And another person I would like to pay homage to this evening is a beautiful jack [01:14:00] for him, her integrity to bring forth some amazing people from our community so that we can all celebrate. Now. Can I ask you all a favour? Can you please be standing? Yeah, I am. Can we please be standing? If you look to the back of the room? There's a young man called Angelo Genois. Where are you, my love? Angelo has been tireless in helping the girls with the parade. He was our official photographer for [01:14:30] the photographs that are on my page with me and the girls. He also photographed myself, Donna and Georgina. But for you audience Could you place your right hand on your stomach? Right hand on your stomach. Your left hand on the lower part of your back Lower. Are we standing up straight? Everybody now lean forward. Ever so slightly. And give yourselves a hand. Thank you so much for being [01:15:00] for staying the whole night. Thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen. Happy 2005 and happy out in the park. Thank you. Thank you, Amanda. Thank you. Now we are coming to our close, but we have one more thing to do, and that is to draw the name of one of the recipients. And they are to, uh they have one accommodation. This is the the price accommodation and dinner at the Museum [01:15:30] Hotel, which has been support of the Queer Communities of Wellington. So thank you to the museum hotel. And I thought, Well, you know, this is gonna be a bit, uh, her. So I'm going to ask Dame Doctor Margaret Sparrow to draw the name of the person out of here. Let's give her a very and to doctor. And we know my doctor Margaret SP, of course, is [01:16:00] a pioneer. Of course, in sexuality with family Penny. Welcome. And do you want to say hello? I ever ever come. Ok, well there, Margaret. You know, you're very special to us. Very, very special. And I'd like to ask you if you could draw the winning number or the name of the person. Karen Towell. Wow. [01:16:30] Well, Karen, Karen, Mother. There is not a more deserving couple in Wellington. Congratulations! Lord has spoken. Honey, you need to accept. Ladies and gentlemen, can I just say thank you very much for the state? We now come to our conclusion of our evening. Can I just [01:17:00] pick up? I started by sending the greetings from the Pacific, and I just want to to pick up what has said when people say Maori says to you, Is they wishing you life? Because the word order. If a cook Islander says to you, the operative word is saying it's or which means life and when a tonne says to you or says [01:17:30] they're saying and Fijian with and means wellness or goodness. And finally, when the and says to you or a person from the Rock of Polynesian says, or a person from Hawaii, he says, the opposite words in those greetings are a A which means love. So from us dear to [01:18:00] you, from Jack and on behalf of me, Jack and and A we like to send you those greetings to wish each and every one of you. Well, a life that is wrapped in wellness but always delivered in love. Good night, ladies and gentlemen. Oh, dear.

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TITLE: Rainbow Pride Community Honours (2015) - Part 2
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VOICES: Antony Paltridge; Bill Logan; Connor MeikleJohn; Fetu-ole-moana Teuila Tamapeau; Fuimaono Karl Pulotu-Endemann; Hamish Allardice; Herbee Bartley; Ian Anderson; Jac Lynch; Kassie Hartendorp; Lee Eklund; Louisa Wall; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Martin Kaulback; Nigel Jeffcoat; Steven Mawhinney; Ted Fecteau; Walter Kawikaka'iulani Aipa
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Amanduh la Whore; Antony Paltridge; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bill Logan; Connor MeikleJohn; Different Strokes Wellington (DSW); Fetu-ole-moana Teuila Tamapeau; Fuimaono Karl Pulotu-Endemann; Hamish Allardice; Herbee Bartley; Ian Anderson; Ivy Bar and Cabaret; Jac Lynch; Jevon Wright; Justin Canty; Kassie Hartendorp; Lee Eklund; Leilani Sio; Louisa Wall; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Martin Kaulback; Meow; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Nigel Jeffcoat; Out in the Park (Wellington); Polari Fantabulosa (Wellington); Rainbow Pride Community Honours (Wellington); Scott Kennedy; Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar; Steven Mawhinney; Tabby Besley; Ted Fecteau; The Queer Avengers (Wellington); Tranzform (Wellington); Walter Kawikaka'iulani Aipa; Wellington; Wellington Frontrunners; Wellington Gay Welfare Group; awards; community; honours; intersex; marriage equality; non-binary; recognition; volunteer; youth
DATE: 10 February 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Meow, 9 Edward Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: Part 2 of an honours evening which celebrated people who have made outstanding contributions to the queer and takataapui communities of the Wellington region. The evening was split into three parts: part 1 and part 3 are also available online. A special thank you to Out in the Park for allowing us to record this event.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Does anyone want to see what those What are inside those mystery envelopes that we've been handing out? Like What the heck is that? This is what's inside it, and it reads. The certificate of appreciation is presented to Louisa Wall and gratitude for outstanding contribution to the Rainbow communities of Wellington and to the floods [00:00:30] of wedding invitations that are finally coming in. People have to say no names mentioned. Hold on, hold on. I'll go down and sister her up because in case he falls, right? Yes. Louisa, Thank you so much for everything that you did for us since [00:01:00] many, many moons. Not that many moons, but enough moons to make it count. Well, since your private member Bill was pulled out of the box Oh, this is going badly. And everyone works so hard so that some of us could put a ring on a finger. And, uh, I think there are a few in the in the room like [00:01:30] Yeah, yeah. You have popped the question. A god. Oh, no, no, You You The other one did. Oh, sorry. But I think on behalf of all of us, we'd like to say thank you from Wellington. We love you. We love your work. [00:02:00] Um, thank you. Uh, Wellington, I'm feeling incredibly overwhelmed. Uh, because tonight has been, uh, incredibly emotional. Uh, and it's also been, um, for me, uh, a sign of the connectedness of our rainbow community here in Wellington. It's incredibly special to share this occasion with you. Um, and [00:02:30] I want to thank you for the generosity in acknowledging me as a non Wellington, uh, on your very special and inaugural event, uh, to highlight and to acknowledge, uh, and to honour the people in your community who work so hard for all of us. Um, I would like to, uh, extend not only on my behalf, uh, but Jen's behalf. Kevin's behalf. Maryann's behalf Grant's behalf, uh, the support that the community gave us to have [00:03:00] the courage to, uh, I think stand up for fundamental human rights and to, I guess, challenge the notion that we are the other, uh, because we're not the other. We are, um, in the mainstream of our society, and I actually think that the creativity, uh, and the strength and the resilience that we all show, uh, is a testament not only to our community, but actually to our society. So on behalf of myself as a politician, thank [00:03:30] you for being such a resilient and strong community, because, uh, we got the bill through, and so I want to acknowledge all of us. Um and I'd just like to take the opportunity specifically to acknowledge the young people, Uh, and their acknowledgement of the elders of those who have created the legacy, uh, for us to do what we do. Um, Debbie, I'm incredibly proud of you as a New Zealander. [00:04:00] Uh, and I also think, uh, your recognition as a leader within the Commonwealth actually, um, kind of has catapulted our community into centre stage. Uh, because to be recognised as a young leader, uh, within that context is incredibly humbling. But it's also, uh, a pillar for our community, uh, to continue to do the things that we do. Um, So look, I don't want to talk much longer, but thank you very much to all the people that, [00:04:30] um, have been acknowledged. Thank you, Uh, for the wonderful sharing, uh, the inspiration and the passion. As we begin this new parliamentary term, we've got much to do, and so I look forward. Uh, with all of you to continuing to make the positive change, uh, in our communities, for all of us, Kilda. Thank you, Louisa. [00:05:00] Do you remember Cassie, Cassie of the heart and do family? Cassie, Um, this is, uh, you know, we gonna see a little bit of Cassie tonight, which is, um, all credit to her and the involvement that she's in in the community and the things that she is doing. And, um, we're calling up Cassie now to speak on behalf of Transform and Connor, would you join us too, please? Hello? [00:05:30] Don't they look lovely? I love these two. Not quite. Yeah, everyone. Um, So the next award is for transform, which is a support group for young transgender intersex. Uh, gender, queer and other gender diverse people has been running for a few years in Wellington and generally has been held up by [00:06:00] one or two people. Uh, transport meetings are held every fortnight. And, um, from experience, I can tell you that it's one of the hardest things to do to run that transform meeting. Because, uh, for some of the people that come along, that one meeting every fortnight is really all they have, it's the only place where they feel like they can be themselves. They won't be judged. There won't be any assumptions made about who they are. And, yeah, [00:06:30] it's just not an easy group to run. So we are giving awards to a couple of people who have been helping to run, uh, transform for the last few months. And I think that's all I wanna say until we bring up the people. Yeah, um, Justin kendy clap. I'm under strict orders to keep, um to time. [00:07:00] So I'm just gonna, um, Read what? I've already what I, um, submitted, um, when nominating Justin. So the volunteers at Transform would like to thank Justin for his work in supporting the group to restart this year. As a social worker with lots of experience working with sex, sexuality and gender diverse young people, his knowledge and guidance have been an invaluable contribution to the peer support taking place on the ground. We appreciate Justin's warm heart and dedication to supporting the lives [00:07:30] of young, transgender and questioning people. Thank you, Justin. Stay off the sea. Jin, could you come up? Um, J has taken up a key role within transform over the past year and has shown true leadership skills [00:08:00] and dedication to supporting young, gender diverse people. She's been a Tyler's contributor, organising events, facilitating support groups and being a reliable, kind and astute leader both out the front and behind the scenes with the help of other volunteers at Transform, Givan has driven successes of the group in all her spare time and helped provide a positive and welcoming space for young people exploring and coming to terms with the agenda. Thank you, Jean. [00:08:30] Um, so schools are in transform. Would also like to jointly, um, recognise a member of our community who many of you will know, um, and is is is very well known. And we just want to, um to to recognise this person, um, from a youth perspective. So can I please invite Marie Mitchell up? [00:09:00] [00:09:30] I've been happy to speak for the whole night on money, Mitchell, but I won't. Um, but I'd like to say that transforming schools out would like to jointly nominate Manny Mitchell for their ongoing work supporting sex, sexuality and gender diverse people of all ages. Man has shown immense bravery on every level and is an absolute inspiration to us as young people. Despite doing groundbreaking work across the globe, particularly for intersex communities. [00:10:00] They've always made time for us for questions, counselling, training, supervision and general support. Or we love money for their beautiful heart, willingness to ask the hard questions and fight the tough fights when needed and deep kindness for anyone struggling against hardship, trauma and oppression. Money has paved the way for many of us and is a true hero. Thank you. Money, [00:10:30] Mary Ray, this is a real opportunity to present to you this. You and I are very dear friends, and it's a great honour Well done. And my Lord love to you, man. No, I'm not gonna talk for long because I think we are hideously behind time. I was thinking about 27 years ago when I [00:11:00] worked out finally as a 40 year old, that I was an intersex person and I, like lots of us in our community, hovered between life and death, and the decisions to stay on planet Earth wasn't mine. But I realised I had a cat to look after, and some of us don't have cats to look after. How do you do it? How do you be a person? That's not binary? How do you be an intersex [00:11:30] person that at that point did not have any language or any visibility? And I did it because of all of you. A is an extraordinary place and we are creating something precious and special. It's not easy. We have had some ones, but there's an awful lot of work to do. Some of that. He's been up on stage here tonight, Jack and all [00:12:00] the other people that have organised tonight. Thank you. We can do this, but we're in a need to be strong. We're in a need to support each other because there's a narrative and planet Earth at the moment. That is not healthy. That is against what we have in the room tonight. But we can do it. Thank you all. [00:12:30] Incredible who we have on stage right now, To be honest, an honour. Thank you. Uh, Bill Logan, a hero in his own right for Wellington Gay Welfare Group. Yeah, the the Wellington Gay Welfare group [00:13:00] started off, uh, in 1978 or thereabouts, uh, as the gay switchboard. It ran the gay switchboard and a gay community centre and set up the or helped initiate things like the gay task force and gotten other people involved in that and got it It its role was to spark things off and and and let things go and let all sorts of things go, [00:13:30] um, and and sparked more things off and transformed itself into other things. And it became eventually, what's now? Um uh, gay Wellington. I think it calls itself, um and, uh, it's run newcomers. And it It changed itself from a purely male organisation to, uh, uh, a general organisation for everyone. It tried to play a role supporting other organisations. [00:14:00] It, uh, did what it could for schools out, uh, funding as it could. Uh, it, uh, for a time, uh, it it helped run, uh, fund and and organise lesbian drop in it provided a legal framework for, um, uh, schools out. It still runs a It has a AAA meeting space which is available for queer organisations. Uh, and it has [00:14:30] a website. It's there as a framework for other organisations and still it there is in the background this telephone service, you know, way back then, uh telephone. Peer support services were one of the main ways that queer organisations que queer connections were made. Uh, and those have died. [00:15:00] They don't exist any longer. Uh, they've faded out all over the world now still goes on without many calls, Um, and one of the people who's been there for an awful long time, uh, and has been involved in helping the training and helping, uh keep this organisation going and supporting it as it's gone through its transformations as [00:15:30] it's gone through, It's, uh um becoming something else. Uh, and as it started to perhaps play a less significant role. But still trying to support the other organisations in the queer community has been Ted, and I wonder if he would come forward. [00:16:00] Now Ted has been there quietly in the background, always keeping an eye on things, looking after people making pots of soup, just always checking up that everyone is OK, quietly so that you almost can't hear what he [00:16:30] says, but always speaking so wisely that you strain to make sure that you do hear what he says, because it's always the most sensible thing that's said in the room and year after year being there, holding things together. And he is the person that we nominate for this award. [00:17:00] I feel like an impostor because I was just there, doing what we can all do and what what lots of people have done before Me and lots of people will do after me. Um, thank you. And I think this is a great thing to happen in Wellington. [00:17:30] If we don't do it, Who will think a big hand for these gentlemen? A couple of years ago, the the sports people amongst us organised a huge event in town. The out games and and many, many gorgeous, wonderful people from around the world came to [00:18:00] play Interesting sports competes for the personal best. And there's at least one person in the room who, because they were the only person in their actual age group One gold? Yeah, that's when I thought I'm gonna do that. Some year I'll be a little bit older, but, you know, we'll get there. I'd like to invite Anthony podge from front runners, please. To the stage. [00:18:30] Hi, everybody. Um, I've got three things to say. Um, the first thing is, I want to, um, acknowledge everyone who's brought this event together together tonight It's, um, show a sign of the maturity of our community that we can come together and celebrate those who have [00:19:00] contributed so much, um, to us all. And to our well-being. Um, the second thing I wanna do is talk about our group Wellington front runners. This year is a very special year for our group because this year marks 15 years since Wellington Front Runners was established in 2000, um, groups have come and gone, but it's one of the probably the longest standing sporting, gay and lesbian sporting groups in, uh in New Zealand and certainly, uh, certainly [00:19:30] in Wellington. The group was founded in 2000 to prepare for the Sydney Gay Games in 2000. And two, um, Wellington Front runners members have participated in that they've won medals in the Gay Games in 2002, they participated at the first World Out games in Montreal. I. I was there and I remember this amazing roar, uh, as we marched into the stadium where the Olympics have been held in in the 19 seventies in Montreal. [00:20:00] And it was so I remember writing an email back to my parents how it was. I was so proud to be a New Zealander and how proud I was to be a gay man as we marched into that into that stadium with thousands of other gay, lesbian and rainbow community members from around the world. We've also participated at Copenhagen, the second World Out games, the first Asia Pacific Games in UM Melbourne and, of course, the Wellington Out Games in 2011. [00:20:30] So, um, what we Wellington front runners provides to the community is probably different from the bar scene. It's we're a small group. Not everybody can be up at nine o'clock on a Sunday morning to go running, but there are a number of us who do it every week. It's a social way to to meet other people and to be good for one's health. We heard in the about how important it is to to to to support our health, and that's part of [00:21:00] what Wellington Front runners is about. So if you're keen and you want to get fitter, you want to do round the bays, join up with Wellington front runners. So the third thing I want to acknowledge, of course, is the person I nominated for this award. Um, Nigel Jeff, come on board that. Don't hide it back. [00:21:30] Nigel is, um, one of the founding members of Front Runner. So he wasn't there right at the beginning, but very, very soon off the beginning. And, um, Nigel has been a pillar for our community pillar for Wellington front runners. He ran the organisation well, call us as an organisation. But he kept us together from about 2000 until he handed the reins over to me a couple of years ago. Nigel has been not only the the heart of Wellington front runners, [00:22:00] but has been involved in a number of other, um, community groups. He's involved in the switchboard. Um, he was involved in a Wellington cycling group, which I think still runs. No, Maybe not. They didn't have as much, uh, get up and go as the runners. Um, Nigel and I worked together on the organising the five and 10-K runs for the Wellington Out games. Um, it was a major undertaking to do, um, amazingly uh, a lot of work. More work than you can imagine. And even [00:22:30] I can imagine the work that the people who actually put the whole games together together was because for us, it was an enormous bit just to do 22 events. But it was amazing to see more than 100 runners from around New Zealand and around the world participate on our foreshore, um, showing the rainbow flag to everyone, um, in a very public way, Um, at at those games. So I wanna acknowledge Nigel. And, um, thank you for your contribution [00:23:00] and to the to Wellington, front runners and to the community. Thanks. So, thank you very much, Anthony. I'm not as an eloquent speaker as Anthony, but there are a few things I want to say. First of all, um, to echo Ted, Um, I feel like a bit of an impostor standing here. Um, having listened to some of the, um, the [00:23:30] stories or the yeah, the things that people have done in the community, especially young people, that is really quite awe inspiring. And I feel very humbled to be here to, um, get some acknowledgement for my small contribution to the Wellington gay community. Uh, it's certainly been a very, very interesting 1920 years since I've been in Wellington. I've enjoyed it very much, and I enjoyed being part of the community, so thank you very much. [00:24:00] Now, this is gonna be fun. Can I ask Hamish Eaddy and Martin call back to the stage, please? Yeah, From different strokes. Swimming. Wellington, when we put the invitation out for groups to, um Oh, he's [00:24:30] gorgeous. Um, anyway, to to, uh uh, I'm fluster there. You didn't know that about me, eh? Anyway, um, when we put the call out to groups, uh, to nominate people, Martin put in a nomination for Hamish, which was just beautiful. It was gorgeous. I thought, Yes, that's great. Because Hamish is off soon. Good. We can acknowledge him and all the rest of it. A few days later, [00:25:00] Hamish put in a nomination for Martin, and I thought, This is awkward. What do I do? And I thought I'd OK, I'll tell you. I'll tell you both. This is what's happening now. You can talk to each other, be on stage. You obviously loved up in your own special way, Martin. Thank you. So, in [00:25:30] preparing for this, Hamish and I did nothing except talk just there and say So what are we gonna do? And we decided with the we just wing the introduction and the the explanation of what DS W is, uh, because that's kind of the way that we've done everything so far. We sort of muddled it together and worked it out and made it happen and just gone along. Isn't that right, Hamish? You lost for words for once. Uh, so DS W started in 2008 [00:26:00] strokes. Wellington, a swimming group, Uh, in in in preparation for the for the out games here that Anthony spoke of just before uh, we swim, we meet together and swim together four times a week. Um, and it's all about, uh, inclusiveness as well. I think we've heard that word a lot this evening, and I think it's a very beautiful thing. I think, um, we're incredibly fortunate to be part of a community that's as diverse as we are and as inclusive as we are and as caring for each other as we are. [00:26:30] And we try to to bring a little bit of that into the swimming pool about welcoming, uh, everybody and encouraging people to be the best that they can be for whatever that means to them, uh, and finding ways to do that in the pool and out of the pool. Your turn. Um, it's it's not easy to go along. I mean, I know that I, as a young person, found it difficult to be a part of any sporting group, and, um, didn't really achieve anything in that [00:27:00] in that space. So, you know, to think about us getting together as a kind of visible group of gay men and women in a swimming pool wearing very little, um, with all our, um, challenges around body image and everything else, um, is, uh, is, uh, difficult. So I just think that it's great that we come together. We try and, um, support each other and do the best we can to improve our health as individuals, but also as a, uh, as a community group, if you think about, um, there's lots of issues in the community. For individuals, [00:27:30] there's depression. There's, um, alcohol and drug abuse. There's all sorts of other trauma that we have. Um, as we've come on our journey to accept ourselves so anything that we can do to come together out of our isolation, Um, is important. So that's kind of what different strokes is about. We're not a therapy group, but there's a whole lot of therapy goes on at the end of the pool when we're in our Lycra. That's cool. [00:28:00] I love you. So we've just been given our awards, which is great. Thanks, Carl. So that means, like, we've had our three minutes. So the essentially I just wanted to say about Martin. Martin's been our club captain forever. Um, he was part of the reason that it's called DS W. It's not his fault. Um, but, you know, having someone who continues to organise us all, um, and try and, um, ensure that we're on on message. Um, so [00:28:30] we don't do bad things publicly. Um, is, um, part of Martin's role? He's a school teacher, so he can write shit, and he can make it look good. Whereas, um, I was just trying to be the gay kid at school who didn't die, so I wasn't very good at learning, whereas Martin was pretty good at it. Do you want to say so? I wrote something. It's a real honour to be up here speaking for Hamish, I think, um, and in preparing, I face [00:29:00] two challenges really to ensure that I covered everything and that it's done in the time limit, but that's been blown long ago. So here goes most of you. Most of you will know Hamish and all of you who do will agree with me that he's made such an outstanding contribution to so many, uh, sectors of our rainbow community over so many years as an organiser, as a motivator as a participant and that he is deeply deserving of this evening's award. And in fact, I feel a little bit uncomfortable actually being [00:29:30] up here with him and I. I don't I'm not being disingenuous when I say that. I think this is actually your moment. Hamish and Hamish was instrumental in making the second Asia Pacific art games occur in Wellington in 2011 he was active in. He was active in, uh, bidding to host the Games in the first place. He was the co-chair of the organising committee for much of the time, and then, after stepping down from that post, he continued as a board member and a participant in the game games themselves even finding time to [00:30:00] attend and contribute to the human rights conference. Being the man that he is, he was keen to keep things following the success from the art games. And he helped create and organise the well the rain by Wellington uh, sport and culture weekend. And this has happened every two years since 2011. Prior to that, he served as a board member of the of the New Zealand AIDS Foundation for two years. Four years that, uh, he sang with the glamour [00:30:30] phones choir in its early years, I won't put a date on anything. Um uh and he also had a a long term involvement with the New Zealand AIDS Foundation Beacons of Hope Project. He was instrumental in establishing running a gay and Lesbian Narcotics Anonymous meeting in in Wellington for 12 years. And he helped and establish He helped to establish and organise the very successful devotion dance parties that ran in the nineties in Wellington. Yeah, [00:31:00] And then last year, he worked as a volunteer for the Gay and Lesbian Film Festival as well. Uh, he's also been very instrumental in running DS W. And whilst I might have done a bit of the organising and a bit of the time, the emailing and so on. Hamish has really been at the front and he's often been the one who's welcomed people who's disarmed them with a smile who's made everything OK and probably been doing a fair bit of barking from poolside. Yeah, but I think perhaps his greatest contribution to [00:31:30] the community in Wellington is as a networker and a connector of various people well beyond the swimming pool. He reaches out and welcomes everybody and anybody without prejudice and definitely without guile. And I think that we've all gained from that. The energy and the passion that he brings into our community is outstanding and invaluable. Time and time again, I've seen him draw someone out of themselves by welcoming their warm them warmly and by making them smile. And there's that contribution that that we're honouring tonight. I think many [00:32:00] of you will know that we're losing him to Australia at the end of next week. Given everything that he has given to our community over the last 25 odd years, he is clearly going to be their gain and our loss. I know that I'll miss you a lot, Hamish, As a co conspirator in making things happen, but also as a very close and much loved friend. You're an amazing human and an inspiring excuse me [00:32:30] and selfless, warm man who's so deserving of tonight's recognition on behalf of everyone in our community. Thank you for everything. You go with our love and our best wishes. One final word. If I may, Um, I'm going to I'm moving [00:33:00] to Australia to, um, create another space for us. Um, it's a space that's got a legacy of many, many years. It's called Turtle Cove, Lisbon and Gay Beach Resort. I'm going there to, um, to help ensure that it's here for the next generation. So I hope you I issue you all a challenge to come to be a part of there and, um, to celebrate our our wonderful rainbow community. And if you want to do anything, uh, for me, you'll continue to love each other, be kind to each other, to be there [00:33:30] for the people who who feel different so that they can feel a part of as a recovering drug addict and someone who came from a very isolated part of our community. I think it's important that, um, we we don't live in isolation. So anything we can do to connect is, um is what I think is what I'm going anyway. I'm off by come to thank you, Hamish and Martin. There's many reasons [00:34:00] why I don't wear makeup, but, uh, this is a big reason. Um, Steve Muffin from Ivy Bar. Where are you? I saw you somewhere. Steve, could you come up, please? Come on, darling. A little quicker. Hi, guys. If you don't know me, I'm Steve from bar one of the owners and managers down there. Um, tonight, [00:34:30] it's a great honour for me to be nominating, uh, Lee from NZAF. Yeah, the chair. Um, he's a bit of religion. He works entirely for our community and his role as a community engagement officer. Um, he always goes above and beyond his role, especially helping us at Ivy Bar. He's always nagging and [00:35:00] nagging. I think if he had his way our entire wall to be posted floor to ceiling, he's absolutely passionate about making a difference in, um, promoting safe sex in our community and, um, dispelling the stigma around HIV within the community and the wider region. Uh, stars like this in the community need to be recognised. And it's a great thing for tonight. Thank you, Jack, for organising this. Um, I'm very proud on behalf [00:35:30] of Ivy Bar to make this nomination for Lee and thank you from my staff, myself and our amazing customers. I'm wining. It's easy with a wig on, you know, really? To be honest, let me know. What, that down a bit? Um, I don't say really, but, um, [00:36:00] I've never, ever been involved with such a strong community. In all my life, I've seen a lot of communities, but this just blows me out of the water. So you should, uh, give yourselves a round of applause because you are all you know, You're you're fantastic. So that's what makes me love what I do. And I'll be there as much as I can. And you're my family. A lot of you are, or it feels like that anyway. So So thank you. Thank you very much. Thank [00:36:30] you, Lee. Thank you, Steven. Uh, I. I nominated someone two people, actually, uh, under the guise of a social group called Paris. That's some of you may know it's pretty much a, uh, a bunch of lushes who meet once a month. To be honest, um, [00:37:00] and and it's, you know, I know that some people have hooked up through it and you know, there's there's been some good times. Um, yeah, and I've said it does have a strong following on Facebook. 400 likes. I go with it. Uh, a fairly strong following who turn up at 5. 30 on a Friday afternoon after work and don't go home until sometime in the weekend. Um, but I believe it's doing good. I believe [00:37:30] that. And I believe the other two people who are doing good. Uh, Scott Kennedy and Malcolm Vaugh, also known as Scottie, and me. No, I know Scottie's here, and where's Mel and Mel's over there. It's not often we [00:38:00] see them in another bar. Well, perhaps down Cuba. I do know you a little. Well, I used to say It's not often I see you in daylight, but something's changed. Nah, I need to put glasses on here at this point. Do you know I've always wanted to play this role. You know, people said to me what role are you gonna play? Clare? I says no. The a man Dad is going to do it. What about the intelligence that Jack was doing? What are you gonna do? I said, look [00:38:30] pretty No. Then somebody said, Oh, you gotta be the straight man. And I said, Darling, I've been many things, but never been the straight. Never. Are you ready? I am. I got glasses for my 50th. Oh, they work. Scott and Mel have been long standing in Wellington's queer community, unlike some of their patrons. The couple who first met at Mr Gay New Zealand in 1992 have been together [00:39:00] for more than 23 years now. And we were married in Hawaii in 2003, and I remember that there was a, um, ZMZM nationwide competition. And I remember cheering you on in the car on my way to work. Having worked in the hospitality industry in many various wonderful bars over the years, including Caspers. Yeah, Edward Street. There, right across the road There, [00:39:30] the couple pulled their talents and opened their first venture together in 1999 known as the Dome, Piano and Garden Bar. Yeah, show your age gone. It's Oh, it's that Welsh one now, huh? Yeah, Yeah. It's the Welsh dragon. One that was dangerous, by the way. It was in the middle of the road. Yeah, OK, just saying Yeah, OK, This was followed a year later with their second venture Pound [00:40:00] Yes, in the heart of the city on Dixon Street. Their latest venture is S and MS Bar in Cuba. Street up the road well past Samantha Horn. But you know, not far, Scottie and Mel have welcomed many of us to to Wellington as old friends. Hello, darling, is a greeting. Pretty much everybody gets is into the bar. It's because you can't remember the names, but, um, they have provided a home away from home for many just wanting the company of queer in a convivial [00:40:30] atmosphere or just a per, to be honest, some of them. But, you know, we spot them. They've been long term supporters of the LYC Condom campaign campaign and gather donations for women's refuge in their annual Christmas collection. Yes, love them being the queer local hosting after parties for musicals, that was a good gig. Or putting lonely lesbians in touch with locals when I've been at these polari things occasionally [00:41:00] Get a little message saying, Where are you, doll? I've got a one to send down to you. Send them on. Come on. We take them all. Scottie and Mel have made an outstanding contribution to the capital's queer social scene in so many ways to the guys, [00:41:30] it a honour question. Uh, you get your turn in a couple of minutes. Hey, look, it's, um it's it's like being at the Oscars. Honestly, when you come here and you look around, there's so many fabulous people and, um and and the whole thing is really, really funny, you know, You you you know, Jack and and and, um all the wonderful people that put this together tonight, they send you a, um, an invitation going. Hey, listen, we really want you to present an award on the night [00:42:00] of the of the awards and we're going. That'll be great. The next minute you get a another one from them. I'm saying, we don't need you to present awards. You've been nominated, you know? So it's it's really cool, but they never tell you you've been nominated whether you're gonna win or not. so you So you don't write an acceptance speech and you just sit in the audience sitting there waiting, waiting, waiting, and then they name somebody else and you look at her and go Smart, smart, fabulous, bitch. No, but the truth is, you know, and it and it's, um [00:42:30] you look back and and I I just wanna I wanna I really wanna cover this point for all of you young ones that haven't been around and you're all doing extremely, extremely well. Schools are all of these organisations I remember being back here. It's a long time since I've been personally back in this area and right across the road here was Casper's and right next door was for the fabulous Lee and James over here used to be Cactus Jacks. This used to be Edward Street Cafe ESC Cafe, and right upstairs was the escape nightclub, OK, [00:43:00] this was a gay area, and I suppose it's a little bit of like, um, you know, in San Fran, this is where we all came. We all knew that we were welcome in this area, and each one of these all around here looked after us. They were back in the days. Well, before, uh, no. Sorry. After, um, people like Bill Logan got there, got the day, the gay task force going made everything that's possible for us today happen. And there's there's so many so many of of, um, little groups [00:43:30] that have sprung up since then. But it all started with people like Bill Logan. And I really think if there was a Supreme Award, that's where it should be going tonight. People like Bill Logan, mate. So let's give them a round applause. We're just a small bar. We don't intend to be anything other than a welcoming space for everybody. And, uh, yeah, we do get a lot of straights drinking in our bar. And my attitude is, this is [00:44:00] a gay LGBTI Q space. Straight people are more than welcome. My attitude and Scott's attitude is that the more straight people that get in there if they don't like it, there's the all fuck off. You walked in it and and if you are there, I'm not gonna turn you away, either, because you support us each and every one of us, and that's what we're doing. And that's what you're all doing these days is changing people's attitudes about people [00:44:30] like us. We're not to be fed. We're just fucking normal. It's really fantastic. Thank you, Thank you, Jack, for putting this together. And I can only say that this is going to get bigger and better every year. Just like out in the square is now changing over to out in the park. It's going to be dynamic. I watch people and we sit behind the bar. We just do our thing and mind our own business and watch what's going on. But there's so [00:45:00] many. How would you know? You do two bottles of wine a night. We watch, and we see so many amazing people doing so many amazing things to make this our community bigger, better and stronger and just carry on doing that work. Don't all think that we're all old and we need to go away and park ourselves somewhere because we are all still fighting. And [00:45:30] all of you young ones that are doing this nowadays are carrying on that fight. The fight ain't over yet. Let's keep it going. Keep up the good work, keep it strong and let's have a fucking fantastic time on Saturday. Down at, uh, out in the park? No, thanks. Nothing more to be said. Ah, they've been behind some of my greatest nights in town [00:46:00] and some of my worst. Yes. Yeah. There you go. Um, can I just say that there were There are many people involved in organising tonight, and there was a, um, an advisory group of, uh, representatives from different community groups who who came together and thought about the concept and how how they wanted it to run and how we wanted it to be for Wellington. And one of the key things around that [00:46:30] was that it's not about, um, finalists and winners. It was about whoever the groups chose to name would be recognised. So there's when I was doing a little research on it that is so different. There's nowhere else doing that. So you just want to acknowledge the people who helped, um, develop tonight? Do you remember Cassie? Can I ask Cassie Harten Thorp and Ian Anderson to the stage, please, On behalf [00:47:00] of Queer Avenger? Yeah. Is he in here? Are you good? Thanks, everyone, for tolerating me getting on the stage again. Um, so the queer Avengers we started in in response to some gay bashings. That happened in 2011 that took place against members of our community. A handful of us organised a protest march called Queer the [00:47:30] Night, which brought together a few 100 people who said no to homophobia and transphobia in our streets and our schools, our homes and our communities. From there, a group started up committed to having and taking action on the ground and on the streets to say that we're here. We're queer, and we're not going away. I think that the Queer Avengers served as a home for many of us misfits and radicals [00:48:00] who wanted more than tolerance more than the pink dollar and more than capitalism that that that will always let in some of us but will mostly keep a lot of us out. Rather than thanking our members tonight, we want to thank some of the people that we had the absolute privilege and honour to work alongside. So, um uh, CO isn't isn't here tonight. Um, you [00:48:30] know, she's cool. Uh, so someone else is gonna come up and accept it, but, uh is not here. Um, but, uh, she's, uh, contributed to her skills of, uh, organising and D Jing to events including box events. Homosexual, uh, the Queer Avengers beyond conference Clit fest 2013. And during the day, she works as a chef for Wellington Soup Kitchen. Uh, she recently helped form Carver [00:49:00] Club, which is a Wellington based forum for Maori and Pacifica creatives. Uh, while as I said often avoids the limelight, she has a true passion for people, uh, who face hard times a respect for those who break the mould and works away tirelessly for the community. She's a part of, um, so I cannot see any of [00:49:30] my, uh my name is, uh, just wanted. So she asked me to accept the word on her behalf because she's not here. Um, so this is word for word from Facebook. Um, so she says, uh, right. I've written my speech and you must read it word for word, or I will be very, very, very sad. Overcome with grief. I'm not fucking cool, rich, skinny, pretty or white. Nor do I want to be [00:50:00] bewildered by this proclamation. At my eighties gig, I thought I had cancer because everyone was being so nice. I still hate people. Hence why My true friend Kavika is accepting this award. Isn't he pretty? I'm infatuated, LOL. I joked to God, I joke to cope. Thank you, Queer Avengers in particular. And Ian, for not being mean to me or ever judging me and accepting me for who I am and seeing past my deception. Thank you, Herbie, For the opportunity to be part of kava club. I'm only accepting this [00:50:30] award on behalf of all losers like myself. And poverty is a capitalist crime. End of speech. A next I'd like to invite onto the stage. Huby Badley, [00:51:00] take the long way. Herbie is a curator at Te Papa. Yeah, exactly. I have. He is a curator te papa and supporter of the arts with a passion for fostering spaces for queer and Pacific voices. He has a background in working with young people and he is always there to youth in their work. Herbie recently helped form cover club, which is a Wellington based forum for Maori and [00:51:30] Pacifica creatives. Herbie does an amazing job of bringing Pacifica peoples from across the whole ocean together with his mana articulacy humility and talent for organising events. Thank you, Herbie. No. And the last person I'd like to welcome onto the stage [00:52:00] is I see you hiding Recognised you from Amazing Speech earlier is a founding member of box events, which is for local alphabet communities with a focus on people of colour, Pacifica, indigeneity and decolonization. She played a major role in organising [00:52:30] events such as homosexual and inclusive hip hop event and fundraiser for some, some more victim support She has served on the Wellington City Pacific Advisory Group. Helped to have the very first Pacific at LGBTI Q FA float at Auckland Pride and plays a key role in the new newly founded Carver Club as well. Faul is a tireless and humble contributor to every community that she is a part of and is always there to support any local project, whether it's showing up [00:53:00] to helping out on the ground or dropping off a big pot of she has a true talent for bringing people together, speaking up for those who don't get hurt and creating homes for people, especially those who are left out of the mainstream LGBTI Q communities. Thank you. Yeah, [00:53:30] I've said heaps, but, um, already but Thank you, Cassie. And thank you, everyone. Thank you, Herbert. Thank you, Leilani. Who is not here, but it's really funny. Yeah, just thank you. Oh, did I not get me? Me? I just wanted a fin. Um, not a fin. Um, I wanted to thank um you know, um, my fellow queer Avengers, um, you [00:54:00] know, the importance of activism in our communities, as we all know in the past 50 years is really important. Um, and I'd like to acknowledge, you know, that, um, there's still a lot of work to do, I think within our Pacific communities, there's still, you know, many, many island nations that it's still illegal to be gay or trans. Um, you know, there's eight of them. So, you know, once those communities feel the strength to actually take on those systems that are in place, um, you know, it'd be good to have the support. And I know people like Cassie who is one of my heroes [00:54:30] as well as Ian, um, would be, you know, alongside on it as well. Um, but yeah, that's about it. I wrote a really eloquent speech for you all, but I left it at work but, um, I will read it to you over the phone. OK, thank you. Yeah. Herbie is a member of the Wellington City Council Pacific [00:55:00] Advisory Group. The PG and, um, has a role tonight in, um in honouring the person that the Pacific Advisory Group has, um, wanted to recognise in this way. Thank you, Jack. Thank you, Jack, for organising this as well as I mentioned earlier, I left a very eloquent she loves sweet shit. Um, I would just really, really like to, um just to give a, um, insight [00:55:30] into Wellington Council Pacific Advisory Group. Um, for the first time, we have three, rainbow, um, advisors on our committee, which is a big achievement, Um, as well. And I wish that I stand here not only representing them, but also our wider Wellington City Council or as well, um, this person that I've nominated as, um, been a really huge influence on my life. I don't know if they know that or not, but when I was really 17 and a young little punk, um, growing up in the valley, [00:56:00] I met this person. Um, and he really sparked it off for me and honestly, this person has done a lot for the mental health communities, for our health communities, for our arts communities. Um, for our Pacific communities as well and as well as our Pacific LGBT Q communities. Um, there's there's so much more to say about what this man has achieved. Um, in in this community as well. What What's that? [00:56:30] Is that a long, um, he's had an amazing journey. Um, like I said, he's not only probably he's influenced my life, but he's probably influenced many, many within the Pacific Ocean as well. Um, I think you know who I'm talking about. At this stage. We could all stand up and give a round of our we could all stand up for [00:57:00] Oh, my You know, my my work, uh, three minutes does not justify You have enough time to really honour the work that you have done in all our communities. Um, you know, as I said on the Pacific Advisory Board, as the unofficial advisor, I am putting forward and everyone chaired and agreed in support of you. [00:57:30] Thank you so much for everything and big honour to you. Um God, I'll tell you. Can I just say that when Jack rang me, I said earlier that I was, um couldn't have the heart to turn it down, but in effect, what it was I was right in the middle of arranging my sister who's a lesbian's [00:58:00] funeral, and, um and I thought it was just timely that, uh, I should be here to just to honour all the lesbians and all the gays and and intersex and all the young people, because she died, um, in Australia. And I was, uh, organising our family. Her body to be brought back was escorted by my sisters and her partner of 20 years, Margaret. So, uh, this award to people I like [00:58:30] to honour my sister, who passed away, but also to the Pacific advisory community. But really, can I just say for all those people who have died, all of us who have died and they live? And if all of us who are living right now but especially for the young people in the future, may journey be safe and full of love and absolute enjoyment. [00:59:00] Thanks, Susie. Thank you, Herbie. Yeah, you are. I say, What's that? What be And [00:59:30] hm? We need a break because we need to do a little bit. That's up here. Um, we're having another short break. We said it was a an evening of three halves. So there is one more section after the short break, and we have another performer, so please help yourself at the bar and pay for it. Um, [01:00:00] good to see you. Thank you. To the to the troops from Meow. They're a fantastic job for us tonight as well. So we'll be back in another five minutes, so please go refresh yourself. There should be some food coming out as well. So check out for that is too too.

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TITLE: Rainbow Pride Community Honours (2015) - Part 1
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VOICES: Amanduh la Whore; Carl Greenwood; Ellen Faed; Fetu-ole-moana Teuila Tamapeau; Fuimaono Karl Pulotu-Endemann; Jac Lynch; Joseph Habgood; Kassie Hartendorp; Kathleen Winter; Mari North; Prue Hyman; Rangimoana Taylor; Tabby Besley; Tarn Billingsley; Valda Edyvane
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Amanduh la Whore; Aotearoa New Zealand; Armstrong and Arthur Charitable Trust for Lesbians; BOX Events; Carl Greenwood; Connor MeikleJohn; Ellen Faed; Fetu-ole-moana Teuila Tamapeau; Fuimaono Karl Pulotu-Endemann; Ian Anderson; InsideOUT Kōaro; Jac Lynch; Joseph Habgood; Kassie Hartendorp; Kathleen Winter; Kevin Hague; Khali Philip-Barbara; Ladyfruit; Lesbian Information, Library and Archives Centre (LILAC); Louisa Wall; Margaret Sparrow; Mari North; Maria MacDonald; Meow; Michelle Genet; Out in the Park (Wellington); Pat Rosier; Porleen Simmonds; Prue Hyman; QUILTED BANANAS (Wellington Access Radio); Rainbow Pride Community Honours (Wellington); School's Out (Wellington); TE AKA; Tabby Besley; Tarn Billingsley; Valda Edyvane; Waitangi Teepa; Wellington; awards; community; honours; karakia; recognition; volunteer; youth
DATE: 10 February 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Meow, 9 Edward Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: And from the voices of the Pacific. May I extend their welcome to each and every one of you from the Cook Islands from the Rock of Polynesia otherwise known as to you from the kingdom of Very special. We got our friends up here from Hawaii and finally, of course, [00:00:30] and finally and welcome everybody. Well, you know, there's so many famous people in the audience. Amanda. Honestly, I It's just the words Get out of my head. Revert back to Simon, for God's sake. But welcome to this inaugural. Uh um event of the Rainbow Pride community honours. Please take your seats. Those of you that there's some seats in the front, [00:01:00] Um, And to grab a stool or you can lean on somebody that you don't know or somebody fabulous next to you for the night. I would like to lean on somebody, Carl. Yeah, but you have no problem because you're gorgeous. I'm on the take tonight, Ladies and gentlemen, I'm on the take. I want somebody to lean on. Anyway, my name is, and really it's my honour to be here with my fabulous co-host. Amanda, it is absolutely wonderful to see you again. Of [00:01:30] lover to you. It's good to see you. And like my name is Amanda. We thanks for your clap and acknowledge that. Stop it. Stop it. I'm going to be reading off this little spiel. I got the spiel about two months ago, but I've only just learned to read yesterday. Thanks. Tonight is being hosted by out in the park. It's the lead up to the fair at Waitangi Park. Do we [00:02:00] all know about that on the 14th of February? What is the 14th of February? Other than out in the park, my love. Sorry. What? Thank you so much, Husband. It's Valentine's Day on the 14th just to let you know we are so thrilled to have you here to help us celebrate some wonderful people in our rainbow community. But before we go any further, I would like to invite Moana [00:02:30] Taylor to come and open this with a Would that be OK? Oh, uh, my name is, [00:03:00] and I thought maybe just for the one or two of people who mightn't speak Maori here that I might explain a little bit about what the is about. Too many people say it's a prayer and it can be, if that's what you want it to be. But it's actually about bringing people together. And so the I'm going to do tonight talks about keeping healthy, keeping the body healthy, keeping the bones, the blood, the signs of the body healthy and therefore holding firm to [00:03:30] what you believe be willing to argue with other people or argue the argument, not the person. And the other thing is this. We go back to the beginning of time if you like. When Rangi and Papa were embracing and to show that the warmth that they gave each other and how they cherished each other, how they actually worked with each other, what they did and last of all we say be there be like the rock that shines like the sun and give your [00:04:00] light to others. That's it, sort of in a in a nutshell. So here we go to oh, [00:04:30] garvie [00:05:00] Long life and health to everyone. Yeah, what you want? As I said before, uh, ladies and gentlemen, tonight we've got some very, very famous people. And in the midst of you lot is, of course, the lovely Luisa Wall, the MP for and of course. [00:05:30] So we're gonna look at you the God station and of course, uh uh, following also, uh, uh, a politician here. Where is the lovely Kevin Hague? Kevin? Hank! Beautiful. Now I know there's a lot of also ladies and gentlemen in the midst, Of course we got kings. We've got princesses, We've got Queens. But tonight for this occasion, we have a [00:06:00] real life dame and a great honour to introduce Dame Doctor Margaret Sparrow. Work to do. Thank you. To steer the council for the day. DA. Margaret. Wonderful to see you, Doctor. Thank you. Now, tonight is, uh, it's in. It's divided into three sections. There will be a couple of short breaks [00:06:30] when you can ask that handsome person next to you to go and get you a drink. Or you can get him or her a drink. Uh, we have some yummy nibble things coming out in the break. So look out for those. And, uh, if you get more package, then you can order something hot from the bar. Uh, there's a programme available so you can see the order of the ceremony. And can I also say there is a a commemorative booklet for tonight for sale at the door for $10. And don't miss out on that [00:07:00] because there's only 80 copies available. Manda. Thank you so much, Carl. Thank you, man. The people being honoured tonight have been named by various groups and networks and a response to an invitation recognised by people who have made significant contributions to the Rainbow Communities. We have 40 recipients. That [00:07:30] is right. Ladies and gentlemen, we have 40 recipients being recognised tonight. They But we will be moving through this order like a well lubricated machine. Thanks, Amanda. Look, I know there are a lot of people saying these kind of awards to say, Well, how come he or she got one and I didn't get one or anything else? Well, come on, people get real. This is an inaugural ceremony, uh, event. And, [00:08:00] uh, next year, of course, it's a ceremony to really celebrate because, as we all know, it is the 30th anniversary of the homosexual Law Reform Act. So can we say to each one of you to get moving? And if you missed out to make sure that the people that you would like to see giving an award gets to that next year, please. So please raise the rule. Your applause tonight for the people we are celebrating. [00:08:30] Our communities are better for each and every one of them. Amanda, Yay you. This is our way community of acknowledging people that have made significant contributions to our community to our Wellington society. But for just now, I feel like my breasts are cascading over the top of the trees. Sorry about that, husband. But I'm going to hand this part [00:09:00] the section of the evening, over to jacks and car in my ab, and I will see you in just a moment. Thanks. So, yes, our communities lost some very dear friends last year. Among them were Pauline Simmons and Pat Rosia. We are privileged to have their partners Michelle, Jana [00:09:30] and Prue Hyman with us tonight. As we pay tribute to those wonderful women, I invite Marie North from Lilac Lesbian Library and Valda Elder from the Armstrong and Arthur Charitable Trust for Lesbians to the stage. Uh, good evening. [00:10:00] I'd just like to say a few words about the the Armstrong and Arthur Charitable Trust for lesbians. This was founded in 2001 by the late B Arthur to mark a 57 year relationship with her partner, Bet Armstrong. But it was also to acknowledge the support from the Wellington lesbian community in their later years. Can everybody hear me? [00:10:30] The Arthur and Armstrong? Um, trust funds, uh, lesbian community activities and projects in several areas. Education, health research, social development and a wide range of cultural activities. And we have two funding rounds a year, and you can read more about it on our new website at WWW dot armstrong. Dash [00:11:00] Arthur dash trust dot NZ The two are quite, um, important, um, ongoing funding activities, Uh, from the trust, uh, to the lesbian radio programme in Wellington and, uh, the lesbian library, of which the late Pauline Simmons was a very significant member. [00:11:30] Now, I, I think, um, I'd like to talk about our nomination of Pauline now. Um, the community is very community focused, so it's very fitting that, um, we nominated Pauline for this award and very fitting that, um, it's an inaugural community award. [00:12:00] Pauline was a for the whole of her life. She was, um, as an out person. She was a committed lesbian feminist and pioneer. She put a lot of activity and and a lot of energy working tirelessly for the lesbian communities, but not only for um, for the gay and Queer Communities, too. Now, there's quite a bit of, um, information about Pauline now on the [00:12:30] on the Web. And there's someone in the programme tonight, but I'd just like to summarise some of the the highlights. She was, um, for many years an active member of um, she and Circle and worked on Circle magazine. She was a founder of Club 41 the first lesbian club in Wellington. She was a player and administrator of the Amazon Softball Club. Elizabeth, I can see over there, and, um, [00:13:00] she founded the Women's with Pleasant Heads and the Women's Bookshop in Cuba Street and later, uh, an active member of Lilac, which Maori will talk about. She was an active campaigner for homosexual law reform in the mid seventies and again in the mid eighties, and this time we were more successful. And later she, uh, campaigned [00:13:30] for amendment to the human rights legislation. Finally, that, um, as an out person, Pauline was a very important contact person for, uh, lesbians coming out or same as, um, sex attracted women who thought they might like to meet other women or lesbians. Um, moving [00:14:00] cities and coming to live in Wellington. And this, as I say, went on for years and years. It's my very great sorrow tonight to not to be able to recognise um, Pauline, um, in person, I'm glad Michelle's here. And just to say, finally, Pauline, we're very proud of you. [00:14:30] I just like to invite Michelle to come out to stage Michelle like to join us. Hi, Michelle. How are you? I would like to, um, just say a moment here just to tell you who what lilac is. Lila is firstly, a very happy recipient of the large of the A N a trust, um, from which we get our funding and so that we can [00:15:00] buy books and pay our rent because Lila is Wellington's lesbian library, and I've done a little research to show. And the, uh, the only true thing I can say is that we are the only lesbian library in the Southern Hemisphere. There's a distinct possibility that we are the only lesbian library in the world. But you know, Ellen won't let you say that. So she's a stickler for the truth. [00:15:30] So that's that's who we are. We, quite frankly, we use books as an excuse. The books are there, and we invite you the lesbians only the cute lesbians to come and borrow books and check out the books. And otherwise, There [00:16:00] you go. There you go. But we also, uh, this is we are we have a place for lesbians to meet. We've been keeping this going for 20 years. That's all right. So Pauline was there at the beginning of Lilac. She joined Lilac on the first day Lila opened and for 20 years, imagine doing something. For 20 years, she was a tireless worker for lilac, and so we've [00:16:30] been keeping our doors open. Generally, it was a huge success. I I My say so myself. We we've been keeping our doors open for women to come and borrow books, but also for women to come and meet other women and to share our experiences and just to validate ourselves and have our own place in this world. So Pauline was a large part of that. Had to turn my page. Um, Pauline Pauline [00:17:00] was always politically active as has been described. And, um, well, she was politically active for 40 years, as far as I know, but she was certainly, um, continuously politically active and always had a finger on the pulse of the lesbian community. Um, she was an original thinker and not afraid of new ideas and clearly expressed her opinions. She was a true lesbian. So we'll miss her greatly [00:17:30] at Lilac. And we'd like to honour our Amazon. Our Pauline, our very, very proud lesbian. Thank you. I don't wanna say too much. Um, I just want to, um, [00:18:00] thank you all for honouring Pauline in this way. I'm so very proud of her And, um, everything that she's done. And I admired her, her strength and her courage. And I miss her very, very much so, thank you all. Let's give them a very big hand for our first global award for tonight. [00:18:30] Pat Rosia was, uh, known to many of us, and her sudden death was a great shock. And I'd like to invite her Allen I, head of the Lilac Lesbian Library, to speak to their nomination of pat for this particular honour. Can I ask, uh, you uh, I kick the mic off. It does. Following her sudden death in June last year, Pat Rosier was celebrated across [00:19:00] New Zealand for the significant role she played in the second wave women's movement for her activism, her editorship of broadsheet and her generous in involvement in the lesbian and feminist communities, Pat made a significant contribution to the Wellington lesbian community. In the 15 years that she lived at, she was a literary voice on Wellington Lesbian Radio, [00:19:30] hosted Coaster's potlucks with her partner, Prue Hyman, at their home in, and also this potlucks for visiting lesbian authors from overseas and also contributed in a big way to hands in particular, we would like to acknowledge that she was a great supporter of this, has included being an active collective member for a number of years involved in operating the library, organising [00:20:00] membership records, all the boring stuff, ensuring that a wide range of titles were considered for inclusion in the in the library's collections. More recently, Pat was an anchor of the book club. Her passion for lesbian literature guided the group, and her knowledge was vast and shared freely. A successful author of numerous non-fiction books, as [00:20:30] well as four novels that explore lesbian and family relationships. Pat volunteered her time and wisdom to teach creative writing at classes at Pat was approachable, warmhearted, sharp thinking and supportive. She had an incredible influence on the lives of lesbian women who were inspired by her courage, generosity and creativity. [00:21:00] That was a among us. A and A. I'd like to invite Prue. Many thanks to the organisers of this I should have started. And Shalom [00:21:30] to you all, Um, many. Thanks to the organisers of this event, I think it's a wonderful thing that is being done. Um, tonight and in ongoing years and good to see the march starting again. Uh, we haven't had one for years at the weekend. And, uh, looking forward to being under the lesbian radio banner in that and then it out in the, uh, in the park. Um, I'm so glad that [00:22:00] that, uh yeah, we can hold it up. I'm so glad that you, um um honoured both Pauline and Pat. Um, it's just so sad that two such strong lesbian feminist activists died within such a short period. Michelle and I have been trying to support each other because it's it's been very hard for both of us. And Pat's death was completely sudden. We've had 17 wonderful [00:22:30] years as partners known each other for 30 years, but, uh, never lived in the same city until I managed to invade her up from Christchurch. And, uh and yeah, well, Ackland, Masterton live in Auckland, Nelson Christchurch, and then was or her hunting ground. And, uh, not that she not that she hunted at all in the last 17 years, [00:23:00] as far as I know. Yeah, and, uh, well, Ellen summarised some of the contributions she made most to the feminist and lesbian communities. She was in the middle of her fifth novel when so and so decided to drop dead. Having written in her blog, there is still a huge amount of her writing on the Web and you can you can find it in all sorts of places if you Google [00:23:30] her. Her blog is wonderful and is still there for the last four years or so weekly a month, no weekly literary and and what she'd been reading and writing blog. And the very last week before she died, she wrote about the fact that her um, in context of some something literary, but that her mother and grandmother had both dropped dead of heart attacks, and she was going to break the mould. She wrote that just one week before, just amazing. And, uh, anyway, she, um [00:24:00] she was in the middle of this fifth novel, which was going to be the best. I'm happy to say that her wonderful write lesbian writing group that one hasn't been wasn't mentioned. Um, which put out her first, uh, group book out to lunch. Um, and, um, they're in the middle of producing the second book, and they're going to try and put together some of this, uh um, fifth novel. She was writing it in a rather odd fashion in bits and pieces that it was going to be very interesting and futuristic. First time she'd done that, but very [00:24:30] environmental and green. And, um, she we both shared very strong interests in all the, um, all the social justice issues. There's been a gay queer generally, of course, but also, um, sex, race, class, colonialism, what we're doing to the planet and the whole works. And, um, the biggest, um, thing I can do in her memory. And I hope that we all can is to try and carry on the work of social justice on all those [00:25:00] planes, not only for our own community. And it's wonderful to see the younger generation, um, younger generations. Now, um, carrying it on in their own ways. And I hope that will will continue. Um, she and I had a wonderful life together. Um, we fought mostly about commerce. We edited each other's work, and we had brisk disagreements there. We didn't [00:25:30] fight about very much else. Uh, if you've got hold of the booklet that got the picture of her launching her last book at Lila because and there's a picture of her own there I've got here. Um uh, the third, her third novel. That's the one of which I've got most copies left. Take it easy, Which is fantastic. The first person who rushes me at the first interval will get it for nothing. Thank you all again. I miss her every day, [00:26:00] right? If if anyone wants to catch up on more tributes to Pat and and Pauline, there are links to both of their funerals on the light from the LA website dot lesbian dot net dot NZ. And they were amazing funerals with amazing tributes. Thank you. [00:26:30] Let's give them another big hand. Thank you. Uh, once again, Michelle, and thank you for joining us tonight. And it's, uh goes without saying that we will continue to honour those who will have passed at these events in the future. So now let us move on to celebrating those people who are making a difference in our communities. Lesbian, gay, bi queer intersect. Uh, Jack will call the people [00:27:00] to the stage. They will speak briefly about the group, then talk to the contribution of the people they have named for the honour. Jack. Hello, Jack. You haven't said a thing. So can I just Can I just ask you people? Jack put all this thing together and you know, she can follow me. And I, Jack, as we all know, is one of those kind of people you don't say no to And she will forever change you. She got me right in Auckland. And so let's give her a big hint, because she really has [00:27:30] II. I do the the pretty things, like giving out the certificate and you read out the name, isn't it? What I'm doing is going to call up the, um, the speakers from the groups. And then they will speak briefly about their group and then we'll move into honouring the people that they'd like to name today. Can I just say you all look beautiful? Pretty good, Thanks. [00:28:00] Can I call up Tama from box events? Yeah. Don't make me come out and get you fit too. I can see you. How about the Yeah, I prepared something because I knew that if I got something in my eye, I wouldn't be able to finish what I wanted to say. [00:28:30] I am humbled to be here among you. All in particular, uh, whose work and style I've always admired. My name is Fena and tonight I'm speaking on behalf of box. In 2012, books was established by a group of new friends scheming in a new town flat. We mostly met in a gay club gravitating [00:29:00] towards one another Is the only browns around some of us down and some of us out kind of. At the time, we felt there was no space for us in a rainbow community that treated women's events like one of favours and people of colour, like exotic flavours to be marketed, sexualized, consumed, dehumanised and discarded. We didn't really know anyone. We weren't really the cool thing kids and [00:29:30] we had no money. But finding one another gave us the courage enough to try and make a difference. We began creating inclusive events for everyone centering women of colour. They were more curly than straight and at the same time raise funds for non-profit organisations in our communities. We aim to provide a platform that affirm people of colour and oceanic [00:30:00] gender and sexualities and did not treat them as mutually exclusive identities. We were and still are dying to find our place and be represented. We were and still are working to survive in a capitalist nation of colonisation. We were and still are fighting to be heard, seen and believed. Yeah, we are a group of women and non binary identifying people that descend from Ma, Maori, [00:30:30] Pacifica, Filipino Langi and African roots. And we are proud my fellow box sisters Trixie and send their love from cool nation Melbourne, where they are now running inclusive events focused on building queer spaces for people of colour that are not centred on the club and alcohol scene, I asked. I asked them last night what loving pills of wisdom they wish to share tonight. [00:31:00] So it's not my fault what they said, Beck says. Get past and not and do our community proud and actually listen to one another, Trixie adds. Always remember, we are on stolen land and continue working together to decolonize our communities. Many have inspired us and illuminated the way for Pacifica and Maori people in our communities. [00:31:30] I know we were told to pick a select one or two, but with utmost respect to our organisers. I'm going to be a little bit cheeky and make the most of being allowed to stand up here and speak. We believe in we believe in free with we believe in freedom for Oceania and all its peoples [00:32:00] and what, and we'll take our sisters and brothers along with us. I can surmise from this event so far that we are all family with all the love and dysfunction and as freaky and beautiful and fierce as some of us are. We are not of thin air. We are an ocean of connections and our successes and struggles must always be shared. So in no particular order. And this is not exhaustive. Our honourable quick fire mentions [00:32:30] include Sorry, Jane, Felicia Brown, Acton, Gay Wellington Fan tales Coco Solid bad energy. Jack Lynch Shan, Torrington DJ She and Moni Grey Breaking Hearts, also known as Amberger Lydia Die! Anika Boli Lucas Alicia Suwa Anna Pure Van Melody Wdef and Nori DJ Lela Me, [00:33:00] Herbert Barley Rena and Tamara Anderson and Solomon Son Than and Lee I la Melting Pot Massacre the doves Big Rick Anna Madelin Inside out Queer Avengers D a Amanda Tara Magenta DJ Oh, my gosh! MC Masala. Also known as Alena Martinez [00:33:30] Cakes by Marin McLeod Big picture Ananta Aroha Virginia Parker Penny Dreadful Nicki Mirage Queen Latifa Male and TLC So hi for all these groups and people we are thanked for. Thank you. Now for our official nominations. [00:34:00] Thank you. Could Ian Anderson please come to the stage now? When we first got together as a group, we decided that we were only gonna nominate Brown people. That [00:34:30] so? But then we thought, Well, we actually have a favourite among us too. Spent one of our favourite respect respectfully and selfishly and intelligently contributes to LGBT Q I plus sign POC activity and discussion respectfully while men this fight back [00:35:00] soldier has organised events such as Queer Got Talent and Other Queer Avengers who he voluntarily and in our experience has made meaningful efforts to include us. Ian Anderson makes an understated effort to understand the intricacies of navigating male privilege while promoting people of colour voices in our Wellington communities. For Ian Anderson, we are thankful. Thank you. [00:35:30] Could we have the members of a come to this stage? I hope you're here. They too, flash. They have to be kind to be here. Well, you need to take their four certificates, but if you want to speak to about a who, um, were at out [00:36:00] in the square last year and have been rocking out in town since then. But I think you've got other words to say about them when I say you say, volunteer service to alphabet communities. By representing fierce Maori excellence in performing arts, these artists have selfishly and freely shared their art and talents with us all promoting Maori and Pacifica visibility in a most space and have acted as real role models to younger Maori and Pacifica peoples [00:36:30] in our alphabet communities. As a and solo artists, they have served us by taking part in youth and given memorable high calibre performances at various events. Including Out in the square has got talent and Miss Queer Wellington for K Bar. Wait and Maria McDonald We are thankful. Thank you. [00:37:00] Thanks. I'm just gonna ask to stay on stage for, um, for the next nomination and, um, ask from schools out for Kathleen Winter to come up or Carl Greenwood. Oh, are you on your way? Oh, thank God for that. Everyone schools out is a queer support, [00:37:30] um group for teens based in Wellington and the Hut Valley. Um, offering safe, supportive, inclusive social space for young people. Schools out is about young people coming together, having a good time and supporting each other. It's for youth by youth. Um, they get together once a week after school during the school term for discussions, guest speakers, fun games, social stuff, movie [00:38:00] days and and free food. They also have, um, holiday activities, film evenings, games, afternoons and field trips. Originally, schools out was set up around 2000, Um, and under the Wellington gay welfare group Umbrella. And it was originally set up in Wellington. Um, but we did expand out into cavity for a while, and now we have a really solid group in the Hutt Valley as well. Um, [00:38:30] we have a number of volunteer roles within schools, out from facilitating youth groups to, um, volunteer coordinators, educators, um and, um, training Treasury positions all play a part. Educators going to schools and talk to school assemblies promoting schools out. And recently we've been able to, um, have health talks in schools as well. The organisation is run mainly by volunteers, but we've [00:39:00] been lucky to receive small amounts of funding over the years through the Wellington City Council and um, Wellington Gay Welfare Group, and from wonderful members of this community who have supported and pledged money for schools out over the last few years and done great work, Jack. And particularly in doing fundraising for schools out which has helped us, uh, incredibly, it's been a real privilege for me to be supporting schools out and acting as a liaison [00:39:30] between schools out and WG. Um, presently we're employing, employing Kathleen for a few hours a week as a volunteer coordinator, and she will speak to you about our nominees for the community awards. Cassie Harp in the house. I think we can keep it up, actually. [00:40:00] Hi, everyone. Um, OK, like a well lubricated machine. I'm gonna speak really quickly. Um, about Cassie. Um, I don't want to just list all the things that she's done or all the roles that she's fulfilled. Um, but I'm going to because I think that's really important, but I'll do it real fast. Um, she's done a whole lot of stuff for schools out. It's almost hard to explain what she does. Um, she [00:40:30] kind of started as a She's been a facilitator. Facilitating the youth groups that we run. Um, she What hasn't she done? Um, nothing. Um, no. She was our volunteer coordinator. She was coordinating our own training programmes. She'd been on on the management team, I think, by default, I don't think she was ever actually asked if she wanted to be on the management team, but we just put her on it. Um, yeah. So she's done a lot of stuff. She does a lot of stuff. Um, but the reason [00:41:00] that we nominated her isn't just the quantity of her work, but the quality of her character. Um, it's a professional relationship. Um, because, um anyway, because Cassie works real hard, um, in, like, an intimidating way, Like she works so hard, you feel real bad about yourself, but in, like, a good way, like in a good way. Um, [00:41:30] where was I going with that? Yeah, but the vast majority and often the entirety of the work that she does is voluntary. And I think that shows that, like, the reason she does it is right. Um, like, she really cares about the community. She does it because she cares about young people in the community and giving them a voice. Um, and I'm just really glad that we have the opportunity to give her recognition. I think she's someone who doesn't like recognition, maybe even secretly hates it. So I'm gonna stop now. Um, but thank you for giving us the opportunity to actually recognise her [00:42:00] and thank her for all the work that she does volunteer service to alphabet communities By adorning the spaces in between our ever intersecting relationships, Cassie seems to encapsulate the idea of and care. Naturally, she cares for the spaces in between different groups of people in our communities, with love and respect. Cassie is an excellent facilitator and mediator [00:42:30] with wisdom beyond her years. She has a knack for delivering a point gracefully, without punching people in the face, even if they need it. And we are proud to say that she continues to promote positive relationships between Balan and Maori and Pacifica and everyone peoples in our rainbow communities, for we are thankful. [00:43:00] I, um I'm really, really humbled to be here. Like I'm just like shaking because there's so many really beautiful amazing people in just looking around and seeing all of you. It's just really inspiring. So, as you know, I'm not usually like tearing up like this. So take photos if you want. You know, I don't have a 21st anymore, but, you know, I bring them out one day. Um, I guess I just really wanna [00:43:30] say, um I wanna say And what that Lucy is gonna mean tonight for me is that, um I don't think any of these successes or any of this recognition can be placed on me as an individual it is everyone here? Is it? It is everyone that I've worked with who are being recognised [00:44:00] tonight. I'm gonna shout out some more names. Um, but just because I think that it's very easy for names to not get recognised, and I can easily say thank you to everyone that I know. But actually, those names are really important because history forgets about them. So I guess that I just want to say thank you to people that I've worked with, such as cable Cable. Can you please wave out right now? She's just You would have seen her [00:44:30] getting shit done as she does. So thank you so much. Other people like Alan ain, um, Kathleen Hannah, Um, Connor, who I've worked with as well as well as people such as, um, Herbie Lalai. Um, Sandra Dixon, can you please wave out as well season as well? And I just wanna say that, um, it's really inspiring to get to work with you. And yeah, I just There's so many people. There's so many more people. And hopefully I will see you tonight at [00:45:00] some point and give you a big hug. So thank you so much to the organisers. Your mom is here in the audience. And she? Yes. Is your mom here? There she is. Let's give her a big hand to Kay's mom, OK? Cassie is one of my favourite people in town. You all are, [00:45:30] but she's up there. Connor, one of my other favourite people. Conor Mickle John. So Connor's pretty cool. Um, Connor's been with schools out for a good three years. A real legit three years. Um, Conor was the first person who introduced me to schools out. So I'm like, um, personally [00:46:00] very in awe of his work. Um, yeah. I mean, again, I don't want to list the roles, but I will. Um, Connor has been a facilitator. Um, he's been an educator going into schools and has also coordinated our entire education programme. Um, also dragged into the management team. Um, also dragged in as an advisor. I just keep inviting him to meetings that he doesn't really need to go to. But he does, and he's always incredibly helpful. Like he's just a fantastic, um, advisory [00:46:30] support for person. Um, yeah. I mean, I really I don't want to repeat words like hardworking, um reliable, honest, and brave, but they're all true. Um, no, but yeah, he's just a really calm force. I think is a great way to put it. He's consistent and fantastic. And I think he's really been kind of a backbone in a heart to schools out and is one of the reasons that it continues to do so well today. Um, so [00:47:00] thank you for your ongoing work. Can can we just give schools out another big round? Cos they're They're pretty fantastic, actually. And it's it's pretty cool for them to come up here and, um, endure the the the what They're being put through up here [00:47:30] because I know they're fairly shy a lot, really and pretty humble about the work that they're doing. And they're, um, one of my favourite causes. I mean, you all are, but they're up there. Can I ask Joseph heb from inside out to come up? Hi, Joseph. I leave Joseph to talk about inside out, but it's a new name for QS. [00:48:00] A network aotearoa. So my name is Joseph, and I'm from inside out. Which, um, is what the name that, um QS a is now using, um We're a national organisation that's based in Wellington, and our aim is to make schools safer for queer and trans youth. And we're one of a few queer youth groups in Wellington, um, that have that purpose. And we often collaborate with schools out, um, on regional projects and supporting, uh, local schools and QS a groups. We found that on a pretty clear [00:48:30] principle that safety in schools should not be a radical thing. And it shouldn't be something that we're striving for in 2015. But somehow we still are. Um, so a lot of us of the the organising group and the the Founding Group, we're from Nelson and, um, in our high school and college. We had not a perfect system, but a decent support network for people. And we had this moment of realisation that, hey, you know, our our school is doing great. And then we sort of had this counter realisation that if this is the benchmark for what's good? Whoa. You know, [00:49:00] um, we have some work to do, So that's that's the idea that we brought to the table. And that's basically who we are. So I'd like to move on to my nominations. Thank you, Joseph. Um, can I ask Tey Bisley? And can I ask Tanya Billingsley to come? As as well, please. [00:49:30] Ok, so I'll speak to Tabby first. Tabby has a driving passion for improving health and well being outcomes for queer youth all over New Zealand and helping people make positive changes in their lives and in their own communities. And this passion shines through in literally everything she does. And this makes it like such a spectacularly inspirational, dedicated and effective leader. [00:50:00] Well, she established inside out, uh, in, um, 2012 at the age of 19, and since then has been personally behind every project that we've put forward. She's given countless volunteer hours to make New Zealand schools a safer place to be. And this includes coordinating, uh, many, including the In July of 2013, she coordinated the National Day of Silence, which has had a lot of really positive media response, and [00:50:30] she's facilitated countless gender and sexual diversity workshops around New Zealand. She's given intensive one on one support to queer youth all across the country and help them establish Q SAS in their own schools, where that's something that they've wanted to do, Um, she's collaborated with schools out a lot, Um, on such events, like out in the Park and out in the Square and beyond. Inside out her efforts and her achievements are no less impressive. She coordinates the annual appeal for the Wellington rape crisis, raising over $40,000 and [00:51:00] managing and directing up to like 200 plus volunteers, which is a pretty epic effort. Really, Um, she's been a coordinator at the Newtown Community Centre. She hopes to run Pink Shirt Day every year, and she was the co-chair person of legalised love, which was a group involved in the Marriage Equality campaign. Um, more recently, she's been commissioned to collect interviews, um, by private New Zealand for the purpose of ensuring that stories [00:51:30] which historically haven't been told and need to be told, are recorded and safeguarded for future generations to ensure that they're not lost. And in June of this year, she's going to be presented with the Queen's Young Leader Award. Now, this is quite a big deal. It goes to 60 people all around the Commonwealth, and she's the only New Zealander to receive it. So you know this is massive. [00:52:00] Now, as is evident, um, you know, just from the list of achievements let alone actually knowing her tabby has levels of energy and dedication that, you know, with the greatest respect and affection are frankly terrifying. So I've I've worked with her. Yeah. So I've worked beside her, um, since 2009, Um, when her job was sort of helping breathe new life [00:52:30] into what we called good. Good. Um, she was breathing new life into nags, which was the, um, QS a group and and college where we were at and since then, Um, every single year, she's done something further to push the boundaries of impossibility and make the people around us just achieve insane feats. So thank you so much, Tay. And you're amazing. [00:53:00] Thank you. Um, I won't so much cos i'll cry And I hate crying about people. Um, that's gonna come. Um, but I just wanna say, um, thank you so much for all this recognition and thank you to all of the other volunteers. Um, put inside out to Joseph Tan, who is? I'm excited to hear what you're gonna say about her. Um, because she's my right hand woman. She's supported everything throughout this journey. Um, Maggie, one of our other volunteers is out here tonight, [00:53:30] Um, and to the others who aren't here to move. Are you here? Yes. Thank you so much to me. Um, for the support you've given us this last year as an executive advisor on our board, that's meant so much. And we really said, um, to see you moving on, but, um, know that your support has been really, really huge for us, Um, and to schools out and to transform and to all the other organisations that have, um, supported us and that we're working with, um and I, um Sandra, [00:54:00] so so many of you. Um, just thank you. It really means a lot. Um, a very privileged to work in this community and to get to represent us, um, in England as well. Thank you. So I'll speak to Tan Now. Tan is a dedicated board member for inside out and has been throughout [00:54:30] some of the most horrible personal circumstances. Um, she she was the victim of the Malaysian diplomat assault case. That was all over the media. Um, last year. She is a staunch advocate for addressing our culture of sexual and domestic violence, and that was exemplified by the way that she dealt with that media attention. [00:55:00] She made a choice that you know, the courage that's needed to make it. I can't even fathom which was to waive her right to name suppression and instead speak out on behalf of all victims of sexual abuse and endure all of the subsequent bile from, um, online SoCal journalists to give the give a voice to the voiceless. Tam is, there's no other way I can put it. Tam is the bravest person that I know, and she's gone through more than anyone should have to. [00:55:30] But despite all this, um, she's never missed a board meeting ever. And in her role as secretary and soon to be co-chair person, she's given so much to inside arts work despite having so much else to deal with. She's volunteered on most of our projects since our inception. Um, she helped out with the Wellington patchwork heavy um in July of 2013 helped to coordinate it. She helped to coordinate the day of silence in June 2014 and attended meetings throughout high schools as part [00:56:00] of the outreach programme that we ran in last October. And in addition, as part of that project, she gave part of a professional development workshop on gender and sexual diversity for the very first time and received quite a lot of awesome feedback. She's also been key in building positive relationships with and supporting and collaborating with schools, out attending regular meetings between our two groups and even before inside out to worked alongside Tabby to run Q youth, which was a regional hub in Nelson, which supports [00:56:30] Q, SAS and run regional and national. Now I've met people who've been to been to these, and they call it life changing, and from these they drag they. They get the courage and strength to take that back to their own schools and, you know, start their own projects, start their own groups, do their own thing and make their own schools a better place. And they say that you know that courage and strength is something that they draw straight from it, and all I can say is with role models like it's not hard to see why she's amazing. [00:57:00] Tom is an incredible volunteer and truly deserves recognition for her bravery. and strength, particularly recently speaking out about rape culture at a time when her personal life was all over the media while continuing to give her time and skills to make Wellington and New Zealand a safer place for queer and trans youth. So, Tom, thank you so much. [00:57:30] Thank you, everyone. Um, I just want to echo what Tabby said and thank um, all those people, um, and also just want to acknowledge everyone who's gone before us and the work that, um, everyone here has done. And, um, everyone who's not with us because, like, we know that, um, without them and the work they've done that we wouldn't be able to do, um, any of what we're doing today. So thank you to everyone and to to all those. Yeah, let's [00:58:00] give them a very big hand. Oh, I think I just want to help you off the stage. That's OK. Health and safety. That's no. Listen, um, I know those chairs are awful, so I'm gonna call for a break for five minutes so [00:58:30] that you can replenish your glass. And also the, uh the toilets are that way. Uh, people, for those of us who haven't been here before. So, ladies and gents, just to stand up for a five minute break, uh, fresh air, the bars open.

IRN: 874
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_rainbows_missy.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004329
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089623
TITLE: Missy - Beyond Rainbows
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Jo Jackson / Grizz
TAGS: 1990s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Ara Taiohi; Barack Obama; Beyond Rainbows (series); California; Christianity; Gay Straight Alliance (GSA); Jo Jackson / Grizz; Santa Barbara; Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar; United States of America; Wellington; Yelp; acceptance; advice; bisexual; butch; coming out; community; dating; demisexual; employment; family; femme; fluidity; gender; homophobia; hospitality; invisibility; labels; lesbian; media; minority; nightclub; non-binary; pansexual; parents; politics; queer; queer straight alliance (QSA); relationships; representation; school; sex; siblings; stereotypes; stigma; transgender; transition; understanding; university; youth
DATE: 30 November 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Missy talks about identifying as non-binary and somewhere in between pansexuality and demisexuality.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um, my name's Missy. Um, I'm some weird thing between sexualities, uh, somewhere between pan and Demi. Um, gender is a female by birth. Oh, God. Trying to explain this. I'm too tired for this bullshit. Um, female, but somewhere else, but very much non-binary if I was actually supposed [00:00:30] to name a thing, Um, so those are obviously minorities the thing and that I don't think there's much more to be said. Cool. Um, also, uh, by your accent, I can tell you're American. Right. Um so how has been, like, fitting into these minorities? Been few different in America and New Zealand. Uh, in America, I very much identified [00:01:00] as female. And I guess pansexual, by the time I was leaving, never really pressed it, Um, in such that it was just so much more convenient to say, lesbian, Um, because it's I figure it's not my job to educate the masses. Um uh, even though someone was to push, I would always I say pansexual. Um, whereas in New Zealand, So in the States, [00:01:30] I was specifically in Southern California, which is definitely more on the liberal scale in the states. Um, it was never an issue so much as people just didn't know. So I just used a different label. Um, in New Zealand. Um, it's funny because I voluntarily surround myself with people who are quite queer. Um, [00:02:00] you know, there are two I not even choose. They just who I tend to be gravitate gravitate towards. It's very interesting. I've started working in, um, hospitality in New Zealand. Well, I did both places, but and there's a lot of good people who are woefully ignorant. Um, and it's just very interesting to try and explain to them what the idea of like transgender is. [00:02:30] Whereas in, uh, Southern California, it was just kind of like a thing. I remember my parents. We had a family friend who was transit or transitioning, and they were kind of like, This is what's going on. This is what's happening. Some people are like that, Um, whereas here it's still kind of people just don't know. Um so I'm inclined to say it's more progressive and only like because you guys have had a trans person in Parliament. [00:03:00] Of course, the states can't say that, but at the same time, I think just general just seems to me general ignorance as a whole. Um, yeah. Were you very active in the queer community back in California? Um, in my high school, I was tingly involved in the, um GSAG alliance. And I think I was much more active on an individual level. I was the first to come [00:03:30] out of my friend group. I had a lot of friends. Come talk to me. Um, and I be like, I think I'm I'm you know, I think I'm gay. Like sweet. Let's have this chat. Let's talk. Um, and I still very much like that. And, uh, here I've had a few conversations about how to have sex with the vagina to people who are within the queer, um, spectrum. Uh, so it's [00:04:00] very just on a, uh, person to person level. Um, I remember some people after high school coming up to me and being like you, seeing you so open in your relationships in high school really kind of astounded me and gave me inspired me and other such quotation mark words. So which is not something I actively did, But it's something I thought worth note. What sorts of differences have you noticed? Um, in the communities, [00:04:30] the Queer Communities in southern Cali, California and Wellington. It's hard because I was under 18 in the States and over 18 in New Zealand. And unfortunately, I think a large part of the community is in clubs and, you know, having a gay club and stuff like that or accessible for people who are of age. Um, you know, which makes it a bit difficult, Um, [00:05:00] in regards to both, I find them very similar in that there always seems to be this queer community that's incredible, difficult to crack until you end. It becomes just a matter of knowing enough or knowing people. And then you suddenly realise you're part of the queer community and you're just Where did this come from? Um, it But no. Ultimately, I think it's kind of a clicky thing. Um, you just happen to find yourself in? How [00:05:30] has the, um, the queer community, how accepting has the queer community been? I've never really. The pan thing is very interesting because people just write it off and it's like you're just you're just lesbian. You voted It wouldn't, um and I it's It's just frustrating to try and [00:06:00] be like explain it. And I've coined this simple phrase. I don't care what's in your pants. Um, but, you know, and people kind of, um write it off and it's just mostly I've just given up on it. Um, and the non binary thing I have actually not or not really talk to anyone who doesn't themselves identifies that, Um, just because I don't look forward to that conversation [00:06:30] of trying to explain that, Why not? Because people don't like things that aren't immediately accessible. Um, and it's funny because and then they you know, they sue masculine, since I'm because I tend to dress more masculine dress and things of that sort. So whenever I dress feminine, they'll be like, But what about what [00:07:00] you were saying before and since it's they like to pigeon hole you and mostly I just had to say, Fuck y'all and walk away. Um, yeah, so is it Accepting depends on who it is. Um, I think most people a lot of them just kind of don't give a fuck. It's I. I personally don't have the problem with people being gatekeeper, you know, being you're not queer enough for something like that [00:07:30] because I've been in homosexual relationships. Still not even sure on the terms because of things and stuff. But, um so that's something I've seen people do that It's very interesting, You know, they'll be like I'm by, They're like, but you've only been heterosexual relationship. So how do you know? Um, this is so tangential. Um, point being I know the problem with gatekeeping. I know it exists. I've seen people do it. I'm so glad that I don't have to deal with it because it's so fucking [00:08:00] invalidating. You know, this thing that you feel a part of and people saying Na na na na na um, it's bullshit is is a legitimate real problem. Um, and it's funny because the non binary thing is classified under the Trans label. But I, I don't feel I feel like I It's very I'm invalidating their existence by classifying myself trans [00:08:30] because, you know, it's kind of I feel they're you know, the people get they're fucking killed. What is the statistics? You know, one in 18 queer youth is killed where it's like one in 12 or one in eight. Trans youth is killed or something of that sort. Whereas I don't you know I don't face any of the hardship they do because it's not something that is so obvious? Um [00:09:00] and yeah, so there's kind of that I I don't wanna say it's life inclusiveness. I just think that there should be a better term for things. Um, because it's like either your sister or your Trans and clearly there's a little there's Grey area. Um, it's a spectrum. Love that phrase and then you get it. But people would complain about, but you're adding things onto the acronym like guys. It's [00:09:30] clearly things more important than acronym. Um, what was the coming out process like for you? Um, it came out on October 11th, 2000 and nine, 2008. I wanna say, um, it's coming out day in the States. It was my first year of high school. I went to the GS a because I'm like I am a ally. I knew [00:10:00] I wasn't really an ally. Um, and I knew that was great as fuck, and I remember there. So Santa Barbara is very white and very, um, Latino, but there's not a huge black community. And there was this one. He was a cheerleader. He was a black cheerleader, and he was so gay. And it was just basically, every minority was shoved in his face. Effeminate gay black [00:10:30] man and just God, God love him. Um, and they were Everyone was making stickers for coming out today. I'm like, what is this shit? And he made me one that said, I'm by. Will you marry me? And I wore that around school on October 11th, and people thought it was a joke. They seriously just thought it was a joke. Um, which I think is hilarious. I'm like, No, no, Like, I'm I'm actually very serious. And I had that sticker in the front of my binder for all four years of high school. [00:11:00] Um, so that's how I came out to public at large. Of course, I didn't come out to my parents before or immediately after, because fuck, that's scary. Even in liberal California, Um, it's not that I knew they wouldn't be accepting, uh, my sister's gay, so she did a lot of the more difficult dealing with bullshit. Um, I just It was [00:11:30] just stigmatised. It was like it's something bad's going to happen. Um, it wasn't until my second girlfriend that I actually came out. Um, I remember. I told my my parents a divorce. I remember. I told my dad, um as we drove to school, we had stopped to grab a coffee before and he was taking his first sip. Like dad. I have a girlfriend. He was choked. He was pulling onto the street. That was not the best time. Um, considering you basically almost crashed [00:12:00] the car. Um, And you immediately guess who it was it like. Is it Shannon? Yes. Um, and he's very awkward and bumbling. He's just like, you know, he was very positive about it, and it was just kind of awkward because we're not a big sherry family, but he was very accepting of it. Didn't give no fucks lack of a better phrase. Um, coming up to my mom. I. I think I said the same thing. I have a girlfriend. No, I wasn't [00:12:30] labelling myself in either situation. Um, and then she was like, As if I care and then talk about herself for the next 10 minutes because she's kind of like that. I mean, because she's self absorbed like that. Um uh, but Yeah, it's funny. My dad always still called me. Well, Missy's gay missy's a lesbian. I'm like Dad. Bye bye. But, you know, it's one of those accepting but limited viewpoint of the world. [00:13:00] Um, and it's when I came to New Zealand, I got so used to everyone knowing I'm gay, like I look very gay. Um, and it was so weird to have to come out again. It felt like taking a huge step back. You know, it's like something I'm like, I did it. I did it, you know, it's like fucking, um, a coming of age story of And then I was just doing it all over again. I was like, Is [00:13:30] this bullshit? I don't remember. Specifically, I remember coming out to my roommate, flatmate roommate. She was the first person we sitting in the room together. We're having conversation somehow. I came. I was like, Yeah, I I'm I'm pansexual and just got quiet. And she's like, So what does that mean? I love it a bit. Um, I think I was one of the first really open, very out people [00:14:00] she ever met at her age. Um, yeah. So it's so funny. The idea. Tell me you're coming out story. There's always, you know, 10 billion of them. That's an end. Sounds like, um, some pretty positive responses that you got. Yeah, um, home life around school and high school around uni and my personal life at work. Actually, my work is a very, very gay place. Um, [00:14:30] so I've been very lucky in that. People are very accepting of that. Have you ever had any negative responses? No. Generally, because either a, I wouldn't tell them or B. They just They're not someone I would invite into my life, General, if that's the kind of person either. You know, I if I think they would react negatively to it, then they're not the kind of person I would associate with. There's a [00:15:00] few people who were religious, so we had conversations about it. Um, I had one. I have one very good Christian friend. You know, I came out to her and you could tell that it was a little bit harder for her to, um understand. It was mostly kind of. So why are you telling me? Um, you can tell. She kind of thought like, that's your private thought like private life. Why are you putting it out there? But, um, we were also 14 15 [00:15:30] at the time. I don't think she give no fucks out, but there's a few friends who are it? It's I'm I've come out and, you know, they're very much you can tell it's not their personal. I think one person I never came out to was, um my ex's mom. She was like an adoptive mom or a surrogate mom to me. Basically, never came out to her. Kind of always felt really guilty about that. I honestly never knew how she would react. [00:16:00] So I really don't think she was accepting at all, which is just so cutting because she was so important for like, my last 23 years of high school, I always felt like I was lying to her. Didn't help that I was also dating her daughter, and I felt like I was lying to her about that as well. Um, um, have you ever experienced any more generalised homophobia than that? You mean like the other day when I was walking arm in arm [00:16:30] with the girl I'm dating? There is these two guys, obviously somewhat drunk from Courtney Place. Be like, Hey, we know what you want. Do you want a big cock? We're like, What? What was that accent? Um, anything. Um it was like, Yes, yes. We want a giant cock inside of us. Please, please, men give us more of us. Um, so yeah, and he's always kind of Luckily, we were walking by actually S and M [00:17:00] one of the gay things, and she knows the bouncer there, and she kind of had a a pointed eyebrow or look towards the guy, and he kind of stopped them. You know, it's always kind of like you don't know if they're just gonna be assholes and yell at you or if you know, they're gonna try to fucking sock you right in the fucking face. Um, you know, you you know, you can either try and yell back at them, but that's when. Has that ever helped anything? Really? Um, you just kind of keep your head down, laugh to [00:17:30] yourselves, be like, Oh, this is hilarious and not really let it be anything more. Um, yeah. I definitely don't feel safe here than I did in Santa Barbara. Um, with regards to homophobia specifically. Yeah. Yeah. Um, like, walking hand in hand. The girl you mentioned before working in hospitality. Um, and that, uh you, uh you [00:18:00] work in quite a queer workplace. Have you experienced any homophobia at work? Um, no, no, not from any. Not for many workmates. I think there is the odd kind of Oh, you're a lesbian. You don't, um you're like your opinion on it attracted Male doesn't matter or something like that. So it's kind of the very narrow point about, like, nothing that was [00:18:30] aggressive or, you know, it's mostly people just being idiots. There was nothing ever anything aggressive. I never felt like my job was threatened. Um, I never felt like I couldn't talk about who I was dating, or you know, um, one of the ones I talk to the most It's very interesting because I talk to him frequently about my shitty, shitty love life. Um, and he's very accepting and wonderful to talk about and, you know, give point of views, and then he'll say something like, [00:19:00] I just want you to know what a Penis feels like, So you can, you know, actually know, like, decide if you're gay or not like where you are. I'm just like, Ah, there's so many levels of wrong with what you just said. Um, what about from patrons? Uh, when I work I, I No, I've never They never comments or anything on it, mostly because I look hyper feminine when I work nine times out of 10. Um, [00:19:30] it's something I purposely don't bring up. I really didn't bring it up in the States because it's it can be such an issue there. And I would never talk about it with customers. Why do you think it's different in New Zealand? And, um, those states, because you guys can't sue? Um, you guys don't have yelp. You guys don't have. I'll talk to your manager about the some fear for your job. Um, in the States, [00:20:00] you know, bring it up and the customers angry. Fucking dealing with angry customers is one of the worst things ever because you think it's safer to be out in the work place in New Zealand depending on who your boss is? Um, yeah, because if a customer here raise a stink about it and my boss would just tell him to get out they were in the States, they would try and accommodate the customer. Who is the place? I worked [00:20:30] Definitely one, maybe two of the places I worked. They would just be like, you know, it would be like, Miss, you go do something else. Um, and they would deal with the customer, you know, they wouldn't be happy, but it's a different. It's a very different mentality in the state's hospitality. If you could give a message to, uh, youth who are queer coming out, um, figuring out their identity and similar [00:21:00] situations to where where you were, What would you say? Um, labels aren't inherently bad because they help you figure things out. Um, is that something that you struggled with? Um, yeah, it took me forever to even call myself. Bye. I was like, No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And it's kind of when I was like, I don't know what this is. And I was always going between bye. And I was I tried to figure that out, Um, [00:21:30] but never really tried to put words to it because I didn't want to, and it's kind of putting a name to something um, sense gives a sense of validation. Like it's a real thing. It exists. I'm not nothing. Especially more now with, um, uh, definitely gender identity. Because there's been times I've wondered in my trends. Um, you know, I never really felt right. And then, you know, something like [00:22:00] when I found out about non binary gender queer and anything of that Sort of like that definitely fits. Because I'm not I'm not. I don't fit into what is female, and that's never felt right for me. But nor does a man. Doesn't feel right either. Um and so finding those words really gave a sense of, um, validation and, uh, a way to explain things. But in saying that, um, and saying that [00:22:30] that labels aren't evil. Um, it's you. You can change just because you're five. When you're five, you like red. And now that you're 15, you like something else. Doesn't mean you didn't like red when you were five. Doesn't mean you have to continue liking red for the rest of your life. You know you can change. Doesn't invalidate what you were. Won't change who you are. You're still figuring shit out. Um, don't [00:23:00] prevent yourself from figuring anything out? Um, Yep. It's not wrong to give yourself a name. And you don't have to stick to what you call yourself. You can always change it. How do you think that the, um, the less diverse gay community is, um, accepting of those ideas of fluid sexuality? Um, it's fucking [00:23:30] frustrating because it's like the Americans coming to to or the English coming to the Americas to escape persecution only to kill and persecute everyone else. Um, it creates a hierarchy. It creates a gated, like gated social structure. Um, it it's this idea, you know? And it gives, like, media and stuff. This idea of we gave you a gay, white, straight or gay white man. Isn't that enough? And [00:24:00] then when people ask for more and different representation, they get really pissy about it. Um, and yet you know the people who are heard most the people who are given, um, the greatest voice I white gay men, Um, kind of just like, you know, it's fine, you know, it's it's all good. Um, and it's just and it's very frustrating because it's it just continued narrow mindedness [00:24:30] about something. It was like hitting a basic, like a basic level of acceptance and then just stopping If you could give a similar message to the people that surrounded you at that time, Um, so to the more generalised mainstream community, um, about how to help coming out in queer [00:25:00] youth, what would you say? Fucking let them talk? Um, be excited for them. And some people tell these stories of, you know, they came out and their parents are just like, sure, whatever. Um, and they really like that. But I always kind of thought taking that extra moment to be like We still love you, We still accept you. We're not writing it off. It's nothing because it takes so much courage to come out it, you know, it's it's something you obsessively [00:25:30] think over. You know, you think this is the thing I need to do. I'm the thing I is expected of me. I'm not valid in the community unless I do this. Um, and then I do get that response. I just That's cool and moving on. I just kind of think, you know, it's something that's emotionally exhausting. At least at this time and age. I hope for the day where people can be like I'm dating a dude. I'm dating a girl. I'm dating someone who's neither. Um, [00:26:00] and we was like, That's cool. Wonderful. That'd be excellent. But we're not there. It's still stigmatised. People are still killed for this. Um, so taking that moment of saying we still love you, we're still here for you. You can always talk to us so important. You talked about, um, the age where you can say you're dating someone regardless of their gender. Or, [00:26:30] um, when do you think that age will be Do you think it will happen? It depends on the country. Depends on where you are. Um, it depends on the family. I don't know. I think it's happening to varying degrees. I have no idea kind of expect the world to end before I expect that to come. Um, what can we do to help, um, [00:27:00] encourage the advent of the age? I think educating as much as I was like, it's not my job to educate people, um, representation and educating, knowing that these are options knowing that these things exist that people are this way, that these are real things. These are real people and then getting rid of like, um, a lot of stereotypes of lesbians. I have short hair and our super butch, which I feel like is more or less dying down to some [00:27:30] degree. I mean, you still have fit me and visibility totally a thing, but it's got It's I don't think the super butch stereotype is nearly as bad as it was in the nineties. Um, because I remember the nineties, Um, so, you know, just getting rid of the idea of certain people only certain people are attracted or are on the spectrum. Um, that anyone can they're everywhere [00:28:00] is basically what I'm trying to say. Um and then so getting rid of stereotypes, having representation, knowing these things exist. Um, so people don't have preconceived notions and don't find the need or entitlement to preconceived notions. Um, are you talking about representation in the media just everywhere you know? And it's people call representation in the media like that's the and they all get [00:28:30] into politics, get into science, get into everything. Um, it's let me like the media force feeds us images, but having a black president is so important to so many people in the states and across the world. Um, the beauty is not the only thing that he represents, like is only not the only place to have representation. [00:29:00] So I previously asked you what you would say to the more mainstream community. Um, this time, what would you say to the specific queer community and what they can do to make make their communities a safer space for people coming out with minority identities? I feel like this is really obvious. Don't be. Don't be [00:29:30] a dick. Um, why? Why? Why is Dick and C maybe two words I thought about, um, one of my favourite quotes. Everyone is fighting a hard battle. Be kind. Um, even if you don't understand it, because that's, you know, fine. Whatever people introduce new ideas, things of that sort. Just because you personally can't relate to it it doesn't. Doesn't mean you have to be an asshole. Um, [00:30:00] talk to them, like understand. Be accepting. Be accepting, be accepting. You don't need to understand to be accepting. It'd be great if you did. Please don't not try to be under or understanding, but instead of you know, people's immediate responses to be attacking or invalidating. You don't know what you're talking about. What? What is this thing not saying, really trying to be a special snowflake. Things of that sort [00:30:30] if they don't understand something, and that's just so unnecessary. Listen to people listen, when they say something that you don't understand, go do research. Um, things don't occur in a vacuum.

IRN: 873
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_rainbows_andie.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004328
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089622
TITLE: Andie - Beyond Rainbows
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Jo Jackson / Grizz
TAGS: 2010s; Anglicanism; Aotearoa New Zealand; Ara Taiohi; Beyond Rainbows (series); Bible; Christianity; Jo Jackson / Grizz; Libertarianism; Marxism; Wellington; acceptance; advice; bathrooms; binary; church; cis; coming out; diversity; faith; family; femininity; freedom; gender binary; gender identity; genderqueer; homophobia; homophobic bullying; identity; intersex; marriage; masculinity; mental health; minority; non-binary; oppression; policy; politics; pronouns; queer; radicalise; religion; school; socialism; spirituality; support; tolerance; transgender; unconditional love; understanding; youth
DATE: 1 November 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Andie talks about identifying as a genderqueer christian libertarian.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So my name's Andy. I'm 16. Um, I identify as gender queer. Um, I suppose being a minority, I am being being gender queer. I suppose being a minority in a way within the queer community. Like, not for the fitting with the gender binary. Um, I'm a minority also, because I am Christian and not many queer people, uh, today really, I suppose, identify with traditional spirituality, such as, like, Western spirituality, like Christianity. Um, And also, um, I identify [00:00:30] as a libertarian, so I as well as being gender queer and a Christian, I advocate for personal, economic and social liberty. Um, and I suppose I fit outside the usual, like the stereotypical political views of a queer person. So you mentioned gender Queer. What? What does that mean to you? Um so basically means Well, I suppose I don't put a really specific type, light specific term or a description on it, but it's really just not identifying as a guy or a [00:01:00] girl. So when I basically started to question my gender, I thought I thought of being when I when I was grouped as a guy or a girl, I thought, whether I actually fit in and I didn't felt felt as if I fit fit, like as as if I fitted in, um, to me gender queer. More specifically, kind of means identifying between guy and girl. So if you imagine gender is like a spectrum like a long line and masculinity on one end and femininity on the other end, I feel like kind of a 50 50 mix of the two. Like both [00:01:30] I like, I might think more masculine. And I might kind of act a bit more masculine in some ways, but they both feel equally significant. So kind of Yeah, kind of like a balance to me. And what about libertarianism? What does that mean to you? Um, So I suppose I suppose libertarian meaning something to you, in a way is a bit hard, because, um, libertarianism is a bit Amoral in a way, because it allows people to have their own morals within within freedom. Can you quickly define libertarianism for me? So libertarianism. Um, I suppose very broad libertarianism basically [00:02:00] believes in smaller government and individual freedom. So, basically your freedom to do what you want with your life being within, um, social life. So being able to marry who you want being able to, I don't know. Sleep with who You want to be able to practise whatever religion you want or beliefs. And on the economic side, it's being able to keep your own money, being able to start up a business if you want to, without government interference and basically believing in free markets. If it if it's right for right libertarianism which II I identify with. Yeah. So how have people within the broader [00:02:30] queer community, um, reacted to your minority status? Um um, with regards to any of these three ideas, Yeah. So I suppose within the queer community, um, being gender queer has gained a bit, has gained a bit more awareness, and a lot of people know know better how to react to it, and it can accept it. And many people have been really, really good at accepting my pronouns, Which are they? And, um, what does that mean? So basically pronouns, um, [00:03:00] are I suppose, titles that you titles that you could use for for yourself that someone's referring to in place of your name. So say if someone was saying, Oh, Andy went to the park the other day. Um, instead of saying he went to the park or she went to the park, one would say for me, they went to the park. So yeah, pronouns are basically, like a title in in place of a name and being in in the in the queer community, people have reacted pretty well to it, um, to my gender identity, Uh, religiously, um, sometimes has been a bit of a challenge, [00:03:30] because within Christianity, there are lots of mixed perspectives on sexuality and gender. Um, so some people have asked me lots of questions. Um, about sexuality. Um, some people have kind of, um criticised me for it and thought that my views were, um um they thought they were a bit too traditional. Um, are you thinking are you talking about people within the queer community reactions to your religion or the other way around? Yeah, to my religion, Um, or saying that my [00:04:00] views are a bit, um, I don't know, just a bit. Maybe puritanical. I suppose it's a bit hard to describe, Um, and in terms of to my political views, um, a lot of a lot of queer people are really, really open to politics, which is really great. Um, a lot of people have questioned me, and it's really, really good, and a lot of people have taken it, I suppose, as a challenge to reconsider what freedom means to them and what government means to them. So a lot of people kind of reacted with curiosity. But I've also got a bit of criticism [00:04:30] because generally, um, queer people have been on the left side of politics because, um, Socialists or worker based parties or liberal parties have been the first to adopt Queer Rights. Pro queer right answers. But I suppose it's been a mix of curiosity and, um, also a bit of scepticism. Um, how have these other communities reacted to your being queer? So how have religious your religious communities accepted you queer? [00:05:00] I suppose, um, religious communities. It's It's kind of been a bit difficult, I suppose, Um, when you often encounter people who who are, um saying religious authority like, um, pastors or ministers or bishops or whatever. A lot of them kind of don't know what to say, because things like being like being gender queer. More specifically, they're very, very new concepts to people and to in western culture, they've been very, very new. And they've been developing. Well, they they're not new. They're new as concepts. Um, known to people. [00:05:30] Um, a lot of people just don't know what to say. Kind of say OK, um, but they don't really know how to react to it. Um, what are some reactions you've gotten? Um, I suppose a lot of it is just saying, Oh, God loves you no matter what. Um, which is really, really good. But I don't really think that they look they haven't really looked past saying God loves you and they'd say that often. And they kind of haven't reviewed what they think gender is like in [00:06:00] society and whether gender is binary in relation to Christian views. And, um and, yeah, how How, um, like, um, how gender diversity relates to structures like marriage or relates to sexuality. And I think that's one thing that they haven't responded to. They've accepted me, which is really, really great. And I think it's a core to religion To Christian beliefs is acceptance. Um, but they haven't really ask how they could help me. Better accept loving me if you get me. It's a bit hard to explain, I suppose. [00:06:30] And what about, um, the communities of people that are libertarian? Um, are they normally more accepting or less of your queer identity? I say more accepting, but in a different way. Um, traditionally, I was I was actually a socialist when I got into politics at first, and a lot of socialists really looked at me and saying, Oh, that's really, really empowering and it's really, really great. Um, and you know, society could do better to accept you, but libertarianism I suppose there's an aspect of really [00:07:00] Oh, that's great. Um, I'm not going to infringe on your freedom to do what you want for your life. And, um, libertarianism is really, really diverse because it's a whole group of people who basically they have been marginalised by government or oppressed by government and feel like they should be able to do what they want. So while there have been questions about my identity, which I've been able to explain, and they've been very, very open about, um, they're really allowed, I suppose they've really said you you should be able to do what you want, and that's really? The core of libertarian attitude is leaving. People do what they want with their life. So if they can achieve their higher purpose so [00:07:30] they've been cool. How has, um, how has your school experience been? Uh, coming out as gender clearer. Um, my school has been very, very good, I think, um, I worked. So when I did, when I did come out, um, I there was quite a bit of support in terms of my school community. Um, a lot of people had a lot of questions, but I managed to explain them out, and a lot of them were accepting. There are still some people who kind of can't accept my pronouns, but I suppose you can always work on that, [00:08:00] Um, in terms of the school as a i suppose, structure of teachers and boards and everything. They've been very, very good. Um, we're one of the only schools which have actually which have actually set out to try and develop a transgender policy, an intersex policy, which ables to, um, incorporate students. And, like a which, um, aims to better help um, trans people at school. So they want so basically the policy that I've been pushing for along with another trans student is to have better, um, bathroom access, [00:08:30] Um, less, less binary structures when referring to students in class. Um, better, um, gender and sexuality, education and sex education. Um, and also for, um, better, um, like more flexible, um, structures around sports competitions, at least in that aspect. So they've been very, very good. Very, very open. What age were you when you first started questioning your gender? Um, I don't know. It's [00:09:00] it. It's kind of hard to find in a way. Um, before I was, I was just, um I was just out as, um a male who was gay. But at the same time, I was questioning, um, how masculine I felt and whether whether a male is really a good title for me, because I feel my feminine side is quite significant to me, and it's quite it means quite a bit to me. So I suppose in that respect, I started questioning my gender identity like that when I was 14, Um, and and thinking, Oh, am I actually more feminine, feminine? This and oh, I'm [00:09:30] actually quite different to all the other. Like all the other boys. But when I actually thought Wait, this isn't actually a good title for me, I suppose. 15 or maybe even this year. So 16. And what was that process? Like, uh, for you? Um, it's a bit weird. Um, I didn't really know anyone who was gender queer. I knew people who were, um, binary trends. And they were really, really good. But a lot of it kind of involved just going online and watching videos, and, I don't know, it [00:10:00] was quite weird. Just I managed to just talk with someone online about this, and they were really, really good at supporting me with it. And they kind of talked to me more about, like, what gender identity meant to them and what it meant to be gender queer and kind of. By talking with people, I managed to build up the confidence space to say, Hey, I think I might be gender queer and yeah, it's like that. What other sources of support do you have? I don't know. It's kind of been very much based around, like, just by myself. Really. A lot of it. [00:10:30] Um, I've got friends who've been really, really supportive once have come out. Um, but in terms of giving me advice, I suppose, um, they kind of were disabled because I mainly can hang out with, um, mainly hang out with cisgender people. Um, but in terms of helping me out, if I've had, um, crap given to me by the people, they've been really, really good on that aspect. How do you think the the fact that you fit into these other minorities has aided or hindered the coming [00:11:00] out process for you? Um, I, I don't know. I think I think being gender queer has kind of made me realise some, like, for for politics. It kind of helped me realise, um, kind of kind of, I suppose radicalised me a bit more as kind of realised how, like, um, some of the some of the ways that queer people suffer under a governmental system And, um, I suppose being religious, [00:11:30] it's, I don't know, with being religious, it's kind of made me it. It's kind of made me like kind of helped me deepen my faith because it's kind of made me question about structures around me, and it's kind of given me some time to reflect on my relationship with God. A. So yeah, it's It's kind of been interesting. Yeah. Why do you think there is so much tension between the religious and queer communities? Um, it's it's It's very, very hard to explain. I suppose, [00:12:00] Um, I think the problem is that there are a lot of there isn't really much questioning of cultural context in the Bible, So I suppose it's a bit of theology here. Um, when a lot of people say, for example, the religious community, the marriage between a man and a woman, they don't analyse, um, marriage much in the Bible. They kind of they they do tell you some quotes which I can accept about marriage, but they don't really review it, um, in its cultural context. And I think one thing which is which I think needs to be a lot of research into in terms [00:12:30] of religious communities is, um, how the Bible fits in today's world. And, um, how, for example, letters of porn, which mainly talks about gender and sexuality. If you went to where, um what what like, um, what the cultural context really means today? So I think what would really, really help. Help is if, um, if religious communities did a lot of research or did a lot of thinking and praying about what the Bible means today and how it fits in with cultural context and whether, like, um, [00:13:00] like it did from the New Testament the old from the Old Testament to the New Testament, where the law changed, whether the law changes today and about whether the principles of the Bible can be adjusted or whether they mean different things today. So I think it will be a really, really good point for the religious community in terms of the queer community. And I think although there have been some really, really crappy experiences such as disbelief in people's sexuality and who they and them being, who they really are, um, there also needs. I think there also needs to be a little bit of, um, understanding [00:13:30] that religious people, um, although very, very true to their principles do all in the name of love and that their ideas and their faith and certain ideas are to help people out. So while they need to be some help on the religious side, I think, um, there's a There's a better opportunity for queer people to try and understand people from religious perspectives. Are there any, um, particular passages of the Bible or anything that resonated with you as you were trying to come out or come to terms with your identity? Um, I suppose [00:14:00] I go for the classic. John 3 16 is one. what's John 3. 16? Um oh, gosh. Maybe tell me here, Um oh, for God to love the world that he gave his only forgotten son. Um Oh, my gosh. How have I forgot this? Oh, that's terrible. I know. Not the message. The message of the text. Um, well, the message is basically that God loves you no matter what and that God is always with you. So, um, God is pre in some sort of salvation and [00:14:30] that those who are precent are always going to be with them and that, um, God loves individuals. And although it may seem in today's world that you may be judged by God and that you may be, um, I don't know, judged by the people, God is always walking with you. Um, so, yeah, it's pretty sad. I forgot that. But another one if you actually want to look at Gina's place, Um, there's a really interesting there's some really interesting text and I can't quote it off off my heart. Unfortunately, um, in Matthew eight and Matthew is really interesting because it looks into the place of [00:15:00] I think they say it. Um, weird word, um, and their place in society back in the, um back in the Judao Christian world. And Jesus actually does say that EU may not fit within, um, the traditional structure of sexuality and the traditional structure of family. But they are still welcome to God. And it's a really interesting thing because you can adjust. I think that's very, very applicable to gender. Um, there's been a lot of talk by liberal Christian about this, [00:15:30] um, that what he says about EU there can be applicable to transgender people and to intersex people that although they may not fit into the traditional societal structure, they are really welcome in churches. And welcome to God. What about, um, the have people in the libertarian communities been accepting of your religion? Is that, uh, a fundamental aspect of libertarianism? Um, I. I would say there's there's often a bit of there aren't people who are always, [00:16:00] I suppose, a bit of a no true Scotland thing. But there are some people who don't really take on the tolerance aspect of libertarianism. A lot of people see, um, a lot of people take on a very, I suppose, always quite a Marxist analysis that religion is used, um, used by the government, um, to help prop up the ruling class. And there are a lot of people who see religious views as oppressive. Um, so there's been a lot of acceptance on one front of my religious views, I suppose. But on the other, there's been a lot of scepticism, and I've been told many times that my religious views are shielding me from, [00:16:30] um, reasoning more and finding out more about myself. Um, how does it feel when people tell you that a bit condescending? I think, um, and I want to say condescending in a way that kind of makes me sound arrogant, but it sounds a bit condescending because they don't really, um they don't really sympathise with my experiences, and they don't really realise that I might have might have thought it through a bit or I don't know. Or maybe that I'm I. I come with my views because of different experiences to them. [00:17:00] If you had a message, um, that you could give out to young queer, maybe religious people. What would you say? Um, I suppose this is going to be from quite a Christian perspective, I suppose. But a lot of it is that God does love you and that Christ did die for your sins. So in many areas of your life, like everyone, you will come across sin. But Jesus did die for your salvation. And if you do believe in him, you won't actually become astray from him. And that is, actually, um, what [00:17:30] is written by Paul in in Romans is that no matter what your journey may be, God is always with you and that, um, that your gender identity or your sexual sexual orientation or your sex will not actually prevent you from having a full, um, abundant life in Christ. Um, so basically keep having faith. Um, keep having faith and keep pushing. Keep pushing for a great life with God and keep praying. And if you're if you're worried about your religious community, don't be afraid to try different ones. Move between churches. [00:18:00] I'd move between churches a lot and find out what Christ means to different people and find a church which should be applicable to you. What about, um what about a message to people who are in more mainstream religious communities with regards to accepting younger, queer people? Um, sorry. Could you give me an example of Sorry. Um, so maybe outside of queer communities. So people who are not necessarily queer [00:18:30] but are religious and ways that they can make their religious spaces more accepting towards young queer people. Um, I think discuss with people, but also discuss and listen a lot. Um, listen with listen, with an open mind and open ears. And if you when you listen to people's experiences, try and, um try and apply it to your religious beliefs and to things that you've heard religiously, Um, I suppose don't try to undermine people's experiences. [00:19:00] Um, And don't try to, um, think that you, I suppose, know more than other people because the more you listen to other people, the more you can learn about yourself. I think, um, so basically, yeah, listen with opening an open mind. Um, And when you hear that, try and apply it to yourself in your own journey. So then you can understand them. Do you think that that's something that might apply to, um, more than just more than just that scenario? Like, um, more than just with regards to queer people, [00:19:30] but with regards to all sorts of minorities? I think so, Yeah. Um, I think it that certainly applies to to other people, like, I'll just give one. Just give one example. So, for example, to people who might have a, um, who might be having, um, problems with mental health? Like if you if you try and understand their problems or try to understand that their difficulties with life, then you can really help them more and have a better relationship with them. But just by understanding. So I suppose, the message of understanding and tolerance, it's really applicable to all life, and it's really something that can make the world better. [00:20:00] I think what other, um, things do you think could make the world a better place with regards to, um uh, helping young people come to terms with their identity Arms. I think it's under. Yeah, mainly understanding. I think, Um, I think I think And I think it comes from just the social situations and with making and with, um, education, for example. Um, yeah, I think, Yeah, I think it's just mainly about [00:20:30] understanding. And if someone, for example, if someone wants to use these pronouns, you should disrespect it. I think and rather than say, if you have a belief that I know they pronouns aren't grammatically correct, even though you may believe that they're grammatically that they're not grammatically correct that that those pronouns aren't grammatically correct, you should still use them and respect of the person. So I think respecting intolerance and putting the other person before you is always a really, really good um a really, really good principle to put in situations. And really, if more people just did that and use it for themselves, [00:21:00] Um, I think the world would be a lot better and there'd be a lot more harmony, intolerance and everything. What do you do? Um, when people refuse to use your pronouns? Um, I kind of explained it out, I suppose. Like like what I just explained before, Um oh, it's always difficult is that hurtful? It is hurtful. It is very hurtful because basically what you do then is you kind of ignore, although you may have a problem with it, say, on a grammatical front. You're kind of ignoring the person's [00:21:30] identity and you're not really trying to compromise or anything. And I think compromising for the sake of someone. Just deal. If if you're just going to If you just adjust someone's pronouns, which is a very, very, very small step, then you make a life a hell of a lot easier for the other person. And that's one of the things I suppose. I try to communicate, and it's just really little steps. It's not a massive thing. It's little sacrifice for a whole lot of gain for the other person it makes. Yeah, it just makes life easier. In what ways do you [00:22:00] deal with, like the homophobia you face, or any any impression for being part of any identity group? Um, I suppose I call them my friends. Um, I talk to my friends about it. Um I kind of I I try to reason with them and I I First off, I tried to reason with them and kind of try to, I suppose, make some counter points to that or make them question themselves because I think it's always first off. It's good to kind [00:22:30] of, um, try to influence the other person and stop the stop those views if it doesn't hurt someone else. But after that, I'd call on my friends for some support, or I try to get them to back me up and say, No, that's not cool. Um, and after that, I think for things myself, if it's like private and it's in, like my personal life, Um, I would just chill out. I think, and things like music are really, really good for that, I think. And just making some time for yourself. Drinking coffee at midnight Espresso helps. Have, uh, your family been a supportive [00:23:00] for you? Yeah, they've been pretty supportive. Um, they've been pretty understanding, and I think although I suppose for the 1st 1st couple of days or the first week, they kind of didn't really didn't really understand it, and they kind of made it a point to communicate that they didn't understand it. Um but I suppose after a bit they did. They did adjust and start using my name. They could start using my pronouns, which I'd really, really prefer. Because, like I said, it's not a massive adjustment to make. Um, but they've been pretty good. Yeah. What do you think [00:23:30] it would it would say to you? What? What message would it give you if your parents did start accepting and using your pronouns? Um, it would kind of it would it would. It would give me the I suppose message that they accept my gender identity, recognise that it's really important to me and, um, see that it's not like it's It's not a massive thing to do, and it just makes me It just makes me feel a whole lot better. It would just It would just kind of be accepting me. Who is who I am, rather than simply like going along with my gender identity, recognising [00:24:00] that I'm not a guy or a girl and using my name. If you reach their next step, then you kind of round it all off, and you kind of make the consistent statement. I suppose, Um, did your parents bring up religious? Or is that something that's developed later on in your life. They are religious. But I, I honestly don't think that was what brought me to religion, because I was I was brought up, Um, in an Anglican household, I went to an Anglican school, but it was actually in the Anglican school that I became [00:24:30] agnostic. Atheist? Briefly. Um, I suppose it was mainly when I started questioning my gender identity and sexuality that I actually started to become a Christian. It's quite funny, actually. That was at the same time. Maybe it was I don't know. Um but it was at that time when I suppose I started I. I faced a bit of hardship that I actually became a Christian myself and has, um, having that, uh, shared spirituality with your parents been helpful through [00:25:00] throughout the coming out process? Um, yeah, it it has been I mean, I've had I've had instances where there have been, um, some pastors who have been a bit hostile to accepting me for my sexuality. And my parents have said no, that's completely not OK. And they've been very, very good on that that aspect And, um, it's kind of helped them understand me a bit more, and I've used I've used Christianity to kind of communicate that a bit with them, but I don't know, it's kind [00:25:30] of just been. It's just been on a normal relationship basis that we've kind of that I've kind of came in, that I kind of came out to them and stuff. How did your parents react when you came out to them? They were all cool. Yeah, basically, they they always love me and everything, which is really, really, really good. It's kind of it's It's central to any any relationship. I think, Well, any any healthy relationship that the person accept you for, who they are, who you are. Um, so they were really, really good with that. Sounds to me like a, um, a message of unconditional [00:26:00] acceptance has been really helpful to you. Yeah, I can. I completely agree there. Would you say that that's a good thing to offer to those around us who might be going through similar hardship? Absolutely. I think in any terms, in any in any situation of hardship, um, in any situation of uncertainty, I think it's the best message you can give to someone is unconditional love. Yeah.

IRN: 872
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089621
TITLE: Jenna-Rose - Beyond Rainbows
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Jo Jackson / Grizz
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Ara Taiohi; Beyond Rainbows (series); Christianity; Jo Jackson / Grizz; Māori; Ngāti Kahungunu; School's Out (Wellington); Te Ao Māori; Te Reo Māori; Te Wananga o Raukawa; Te Ā ti Awa; Tiriti o Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi; Wellington; Wellington High School; advice; belonging; bisexual; change; colonialism; colonisation; coming out; confidence; courage; dating; education; experiment; family; friends; hapu; hate; history; homophobia; homosexual law reform; identity; internal stigma; internalised homophobia; iwi; kawa; kia kaha; language; lesbian; marae; minority; parents; queer; reconnect; relationships; shame; siblings; stereotypes; straight ally; support; takatāpui; tikanga; ukaipotanga; understanding; whakama; whakapapa; whānau; women; youth
DATE: 1 November 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: [00:00:30] um, Right. So N So I'm Jenna Rose. I grew up in Wellington, and, um, yeah, I mean, I'm queer. I identify that way. Um, and yeah. Been living in Wellington, born and bred. Still here, Um, have done a lot of interesting things in my life. I hope I can talk a little bit about that today, but, um, [00:01:00] yeah, that's why. Great. Um, first up, how How do you identify beyond queer? If if there is anything like that, it's really interesting, because when I grew up, I never There weren't really that many terms that we use at that time. It was usually by gay lesbian. I mean, I really talked about transgender at that point. And now it's I'm happy that it's, um, become more connected. And we're talking about that more, but, uh, yeah. So, [00:01:30] out of those three options, I kind of had, uh, in the beginning, I think when I was younger, when I first started to, um I guess identify, um, was when I was about 14 or 15, and I actually had my first, um, you know, interaction with the girl. So, um, I was introduced to those labels in a sense and trying to put myself in one of them was rather difficult, because I still, you know, did a lot of men. I always, [00:02:00] you know, did since when I was younger. But, um, I always had this, um, this feeling that you couldn't explain when you were younger, but, uh, I could only really understand, as I got older and more intimate with people. So I guess then I was bisexual. And then, obviously, I went to my life and, um, only recently within the last three years have really identified as I guess, being a lesbian. Um, [00:02:30] and that was a pretty long journey. So yeah, a lot of interesting stories there. What changed in the last three years for you to help? You kind of make that step. Um, well, I guess the relationships that I've had in the past, um, my longer term ones have been with women. Um, although I have had relationships with them, but the ones that I felt more connection with, in a sense, um, [00:03:00] were were women. And there's certainly no disrespect to any men that I've been with because they've all been really lovely, lovely people. And, um, I've been lucky to have had those experiences. But about three years ago, I was dating a really lovely guy and, um, before him I dated another guy and I think they were two really important men to me because it was a time where I was kind of conflicted as to how [00:03:30] I viewed myself. Because although I was with these really lovely guys, I didn't I couldn't pass a level with them almost like you're playing a video game. And you're like, OK, you're at level three and you're trying to get to level four. But, um, I just never got there. And, um, it was really hard for me because, um, they were really good to me. And I couldn't give them back what they deserved, really. And, um, what they wanted for me. So I ended those relationships. But it was the second one was the most important. [00:04:00] Um, because that's when I really said it out loud and said it to myself. I said it to him subsequently as well. So that actual day itself when I told him, um that I couldn't I couldn't love him because I was I was gay. We literally I literally screamed it at him and it was really tough. I mean, I think the day had already been a bit of a nightmare and there was so much emotion. Um, already So you know, [00:04:30] when you get to that point, it's it's you've got nothing left but in emotion. So it was a bit hard. It was quite hard, But, um, for me, it was a really big day, because that day I had talked to my mother about it. Um and I was like, Mommy, I can't do this anymore. I have to be honest with myself. You know, I think I'm gay and she's like, I've always known my mommy. She's she has always not like my goodness. I mean, when I first came out to her as a bisexual, when I was 14, she [00:05:00] she stole the thunder, actually was worked up to try to have the courage to tell her, and I finally confronted her. I was like Mum, I've got a girlfriend and she was like, Yeah, OK, and I was like, What is that all like? OK, so it's always been like that with her. She's been amazing, amazing, supportive woman. I'm so lucky to have her in my life. I mean, um, I I have a, uh Well, she's always been involved within the queer community. I mean, she's [00:05:30] a straight alliance kind of awesome person. Um, her brother, my uncle Johnny is gay. And, of course, so she went through that battle with him in the eighties, Um, through those times where it was illegal, and through those times, it was really scary to actually be gay. Um, I mean, I think we're a lot safer now. Safer? Not completely safe. But we've certainly come a long way. And, um, to have my mother, um, be so involved in the movement longer than I have been. Um, [00:06:00] And to have her support and her love is is is really amazing. Um, have the rest of your family been as receptive as your mother? Um, well, it's kind of funny, because when I told it was the same day that I told Mum and, um and I was really my You're my brother. Sorry. My younger brother and I was really upset. I was crying. I was crying, and, um, I just needed to go for a drive and get away from everything. And, um, my mom was like, Oh, I can't leave you alone. But I have to go inside because we were at this big event and, um, it was my grandmother's 70th birthday. [00:06:30] So had to come with me. And he is hungry. He was a hungry man. He was hungry all day, and, um, we were having this big feast, and we were just about to have it. So for him to come with me and he had no idea what was going on, he was like, I'm hungry. What's going on? So anyway, we drove around the beach and I was still really upset. And, um and he was like, Hey, you know, you can tell me and was probably about 16 15 at this point. And, um and I was like, Oh, bro, is that I'm [00:07:00] I'm gay and lesbian turns to me and he goes, Is that it? You made me miss dinner for that. Oh, I don't care about it. I thought you were pregnant because, of course, I was with my boyfriend. Uh, you know so And I had that reaction from him and my my older brother was more the tears, but of happiness and, you know, my family, my close family, the people around me were really supportive. Yeah. Have you come up to anyone and received any negative reactions? [00:07:30] I don't think so. Not that I can remember. And I haven't. No, I mean, people are surprised, I think. Why do you think that is? I don't know. For some reason, um, I think society has an image of what a lesbian is, and I think it's it's changed a lot now, but essentially, there's still a kind of, um, image that is more kind of boyish [00:08:00] or more kind of butch or more, you know, kind of like that, in a sense. Or you should only be into these kind of things. And, um, I don't necessarily fit in all the boxes, but I certainly take a lot of them. Um, I mean, when I first came out, I had a bit of a struggle feeling like I could be a part of the queer community. I mean, I tried to get to know more queer people. Um, but I found it a bit difficult because I think they kind of saw me and weren't necessarily convinced. [00:08:30] And so was it was that because you didn't fit the lesbian stereotype? I think so. I mean, I guess we've had experiences with people like that. So, you know, odds are chances are, um So when something different happens, you're a bit more cautious. I think so. I found it a little bit difficult at the beginning. Um, but then I was actually lucky enough to come into a wonderful group of people. Um, like, I was very, very fortunate. [00:09:00] I mean, I didn't really have many lesbian or gay friends, I I do. But I, I didn't think I had many, Um, and and then when I actually came to meet, like, almost a little society, um, it was really nice to actually fit into a group of people that you just felt connected with because I think being Maori, there are certain situations where you're on the [00:09:30] and you're really happy to be on the because you're with people that understand your understand your colour, your values, your principles, you can all relate. And, um, sometimes you can't find those situations in a normal environment. So when I'm on the and and I'm surrounded, you know, by or even It's just nice because we're living within the Maori, which is something that I can't live in all the time. [00:10:00] I mean, in my heart I do. And in my mind I certainly do. But, um within society within people, it's not seen as much. And I miss it. We miss it. I think Maori people really miss that bond because when you meet a Maori person and and you can connect and when you meet a queer Maori person, it takes it to another level in a sense, because you already feel alone being Maori and then you already feel alone being a lesbian Maori. So when you meet other [00:10:30] queer Maori in a sense, it makes you realise Oh my goodness, you're not alone. What can, um the queer community do to try and make our spaces safer for Maori people? Oh, well, I mean, in retrospect, Wellington is actually a really wonderful place for queer youth. Just queer in general, I think has a really lovely colour and, um, people really reach out to each other, which is really nice. And I think through that we've been able [00:11:00] to build up more safer communities. Um, for Maori in particular, I think, because in Maori, to my understanding, um, I studied Maori and philosophy at, and that was an amazing opportunity to learn about the the history and the, uh the principles and values of my people of Maori. And, um, you didn't really There wasn't really anything negative towards being Taku [00:11:30] or or gay or lesbian, Or can you just define that term? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, sure. Um, or is a very popular term used at the moment, uh, to represent Maori. And, um, the lovely thing about the word itself is it represents all of it, but encompasses it in one, which is a really beautiful thing, because it doesn't individualise or anything. Um, so it's a nice umbrella term. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's certainly easier to say [00:12:00] than LGBT, too. I mean, it's all of that and encompasses all of that. Um, which I think is beautiful. Uh, and yeah, so so in in the past, through my research, I haven't really observed any negativity. I mean, it was identified and people were aware, and that's why we have a name for it. Like if you think of a lot of Maori terms that are or a lot of terms that we've learned through English. Um, we turn them into Maori terms, but is [00:12:30] something that's come before that. So, um, that's something we've identified ourselves within our culture, and, you know, uh, were a part of the society. They were a part of the the the environment, and they, like everybody else, had their roles in society. Do you think that, um, homophobia, uh, kind of came to a with colonialism? Oh, I absolutely do. [00:13:00] However, um, I'm sure within certain aspects of any society, there is some kind of reason to create some kind of hate or negativity based on the fact of your relationship with someone. However, um, I do believe that broad homophobia has certainly been introduced from a Western society, particularly at a at a societal level. Um, it's interesting because I [00:13:30] think there are certain Maori who have the same views as I do, and there are other Maori who have been heavily influenced by Christianity. Um, and the views, uh, can somewhat be manipulated by what they learn from the Bible and what they know from their own. And so, uh, today you may have, uh, some iwi. That may not be as [00:14:00] friendly, um, because of that emergence. But, um, I generally think that Maori are pretty sweet. I mean, from my experience, however, you know there are certain aspects of all or families that that may not have that like myself. What do you think? Um, the other way around. So how do you think, uh, queer communities are accepting of or may or may not be accepting of Maori people? [00:14:30] Um, I've never really encountered any reason to actually think about that, which is pretty cool. Um, I mean, I've always been a pretty confident person, so I think generally when, um, meeting people, Um I guess I've never really felt anyone's feel. I mean, when I was younger, I mean, as a younger child, it was [00:15:00] It was different because when I was a younger child in in a, um, I, I didn't want to be a Maori. I mean, there was a lot more negativity than there is today. Why do you think that is? And I think it's not just me, I. I have spoken with many young Maori who have certainly grown up in urban areas that feel the same way. Um, because of the negativity and the stereotyping, it was a lot easier for us to relate to other cultures. And we wanted to be white. [00:15:30] We wanted to not be Maori. I mean, some of us have probably in the past called ourselves New Zealand Europeans to kind of escape their identity. And that's a That's a really bad thing, because, uh, no one should ever feel like that. No. One. And it's only as I've got older, where I've realised that those things have been brought out of fear and brought out of, uh, misunderstanding. And I feel very proud today to be Maori. It's it's a wonderful thing, but that's something that I believe all Maori should have. But they certainly don't, [00:16:00] um especially queer Maori. I mean, you being out on the is maybe a little bit different. Um, I mean, being out among your family is one thing, and then being out amongst your is another, but I don't think they're very different. I don't think people really care, you know, I think [00:16:30] they'd care more if you were speaking about something else. Um, what can we do to help try and instil that sense of pride you were talking about. And and younger people. Yeah, Um, it is really interesting because it's hard to think of a way to genuinely help everybody because everybody works differently. Um, I think a lot of us struggle with actually [00:17:00] first off being OK with ourselves because I think that first kind of self homophobia, I think I felt as as being gay, I have this internal self homophobia, which is very annoying. Um, and I think overcoming that is certainly a step closer to feeling more confident about who you are and feeling more confident about being out in public like I was extremely scared to be out in public. My goodness, I mean, for a really long time. [00:17:30] Um, some of my past relationships with with women were were nonexistent. So to say, we were best friends scenario, Um, we went out and it was tough. And, um, it's only really been the last few years after I met my my current partner, um, that I felt so much more comfortable about being out because she's pretty amazing. And she's like the opposite of me when it comes to something she just does not care about, um, [00:18:00] she doesn't know any different than to be herself and to be out. And I kind of came attached to her out to the gay world, you know, in a sense. And, uh, and now I'm way more comfortable about it. Being out being in a relationship that is out is so wonderful. It's like, don't worry about anything. What? What? Uh, you were talking before about when you were younger, um, feeling shame, which then developed into pride, right? Yeah. Um, [00:18:30] so that's why we were talking about how to help. Ok, sorry, I got a bit sidetracked. I mean, I guess it starts in the homes. I mean, you have to reach the parents. Um, what would have helped you? What would have helped me come out Not necessarily come out, but helped you come to terms with your identity as a Maori and as a queer person knowledge education. I mean, I learned to understand things that people were saying to me. I actually [00:19:00] started to see why they were saying them to me. Um, I started to understand more. I mean, you can only really get that with with knowledge and experience. Um, and I was lucky to kind of have those paths, but sometimes I didn't and I had to go out there and do it for myself. I mean, learning Maori was a really big adventure for me and to be able to bring that back to my family was even more important and I knew it was something that I wanted to do. But it was difficult. And I feel like [00:19:30] if you usually come against these barriers, barriers of embarrassment or shame, I mean until Maori, we call it and is about is like, shy shame. It's a quite an important thing because it reflects on how we are as a person and a lot of people feel the about being gay and it takes [00:20:00] a lot of work with yourself. And I was I was the things that helped me work was having my family like having my mom going to a school like Wellington High School where we had the the first, um, schools out group. I mean, it was Wellington High School. I mean, it was one of the most open and accepting places that a queer person could be in and at any time, well, for me. And that was really helpful because it allowed me to experiment. It allowed me to learn literally through experience. [00:20:30] And, um and so I was lucky for that. And I had people that supported me. I had friends, you know, My best friend didn't care that I dated girls. And we were best friends since we were 13. Like, that was a really huge thing, because I still didn't really understand it, but it it didn't affect our relationship one bit. But I'm really lucky for that. Um, do you think you have a friend like that? Sorry. [00:21:00] Sorry. Um, do you think you would have had a different experience Had you gone to a different school? Well, I guess. I mean, I was just lucky to have opportunities at Wellington High. I don't really know it any other way. I mean, and of course I was I was still I still dated guys like I still didn't really see much of an issue with it at that time because I was like, Yeah, been bisexual, man. It's all good. It's all safe. Um, it wasn't really an issue, which is really cool. I mean, [00:21:30] um, when I was 15, you know, and I had a girlfriend and we it was in, you know, New Year's. And we saw some of our teachers from school, and it was just like our teacher was there with her girlfriend. It was, you know, it was it was pretty normal for me, but I think it's probably a little bit different within Maori. I mean, I think just because we don't have a lot of opportunity to learn more about our culture, I mean, a lot of [00:22:00] us. I'm fortunate enough to have the opportunity and the connection to be able to do so. But there are a lot of Maori out there who who don't know their, um, they they don't know the and and they feel the, uh I don't know. I can't say this, but I would assume Feel that. And it's hard to be able to reach out and get help. And that's something that I personally want to work on with. Young Maori is helping them reconnect because I feel like by helping young [00:22:30] Maori reconnect to their at least having that opportunity to help them reconnect will also help them, uh, with other aspects of their life Because, um, once you, in my personal experience, feel connected, feel rooted, uh, to is a term that we use in that I learned from that talks about the connection or a place to stand a place to belong. And I feel through my and through my [00:23:00] that I have my place. I believe I have that connection. I practise that connection. It's a part of who I am. And because of that, I feel more, uh, and control to be able to do other things, to be able to, uh, to pursue other adventures that could potentially help others be able to have that same grounding. And I'm not saying that other people don't have that. Um, but I feel like a lot of our Maori people are disconnected [00:23:30] from te U and their and I would love absolutely love, um, to be able to be involved in or creating a way to help that and also, uh, as a way to help young, of course, queer Maori, because it's, um when you look at it being a minority of a minority, it's sometimes it's hard to give you energy to both of them and my focus at the moment is to try to do one to help another. So [00:24:00] I guess that's why at the moment I focus on the Maori that I'm working on. But inadvertently, by being gay and doing the Maori, I feel like I'm working at both of them at the same time. Do you feel like, um, that by being gay and by being Maori and going out and doing your life, you're constantly representing both of those groups? Yeah. I mean, my mom, my mom always says you [00:24:30] should be the change you want to see in the world. You know, if you want to make people believe that things could be different, you have to show them. And so I feel just by taking my opportunities and working and doing the the work that I do, um, it's putting me in a place where I'm able to actually, um, be in positions to help people or have effect on people. I mean, what, um, one of the papers or one of the [00:25:00] presentations are created as, uh, on the treaty, the Treaty of Waitangi. And and it's, uh, I created it a originally to help educate people about the history of A because I feel everyone has the opportunity to education. And, um, I want to be able to give people the knowledge so that they can make up their own minds. And that's what I take into anything I do like I want to be able to [00:25:30] give people the things that they may not be able to find. Um, that may be difficult for them to ask and allowing them to use that to, you know, to benefit them in whatever way it does. Could you remind me, um, the word that you used for had a similar definition to shame? Yeah, it's it's really interesting that term within, uh with my understanding because it [00:26:00] it talks about it. It's like a shame, but it's also reflective of who you are. I mean, it's something that I have in certain things, but I work closer to to to healing that because I feel like a lot of people probably have some kind of in the that they're always going to be battling with, um but how we how we act is what makes us different. You know, what we do is [00:26:30] what makes us different from that shame that we're feeling. And so I don't I don't really see myself as like when I do something, I don't think Oh, gosh. I'm representing the Maori people and the gay people. I just see me being me. I mean, I don't know how to be any different. And, um, I just hope that whatever I do and whatever I have done helps people more with what they want to do or who they want to be. Um, but yeah, being [00:27:00] within Maori and within, you know, I live, uh, in a, which is has a lot of different cultures and a lot of different people. And, you know, there are so many minorities, I mean, but really, if you just set up all the M, they end up being the majority. Um, if you could send out a message to all of those young people that are struggling with feelings of about their, um, sexualities [00:27:30] and or ethnicities, what would you say? Well, uh, what would I say? Well, you know, be brave, be bold and be courageous, because, I mean, it takes a long time, no doubt for us to truly understand who we are, and we go through spans of life where we start to get closer to an answer. Don't be afraid if it doesn't come to you straight away. [00:28:00] I mean your mind and your body, and your heart works at a different speed than anybody else. Don't expect it to be the same as anybody else and trust. I mean, trust your friends. You you need friends. Um, and you'll be surprised you'll be very surprised. And I know with certain people family will be harder. And I completely understand that, Um, [00:28:30] but your family will always love you no matter what. No matter what you know. Usually homophobia within parenting comes from a of their own and and be yourself. I mean, don't ever think it's wrong or bad to be yourself, because no matter how hard you fight it, it's always going to come out, and it's always going to be bigger and better than what you were trying to pretend to be. Um, I'm only saying [00:29:00] that from my experience, because I spend a lot of my time pretending to be something I'm not, and it takes a lot of energy and it's not worth it, um, and have fun and experiment, because that's important, because that certainly helps you learn. And, um yeah, that's about it. What about, um, something to say to all of the people out there who who aren't queer youth, Um, about how to support them. Oh, yeah, Be supportive. [00:29:30] Just just because people choose to identify differently doesn't mean that they are any different from any other person in any other body. And I guess if you're lucky enough to have people in your life like that where you can actually learn and get to know and be a part of that community, just let that person know that they're safe. Let that friend of yours [00:30:00] know that they can count on you. I mean, give them the opportunity to teach you take the opportunity to learn what it's like to live life from a different perspective, and then you'll start to understand that you're not really different. Um, we're not really different at all.

IRN: 853
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_rainbows_emma.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004326
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089620
TITLE: Emma - Beyond Rainbows
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Jo Jackson / Grizz
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Ara Taiohi; Beyond Rainbows (series); Civil Union Act (2004); Faking It (tv); Generalised anxiety disorder (GAD); Jo Jackson / Grizz; MTV; Orange Is the New Black (tv); Palmerston North; Skins (tv); Transparent (tv); Wellington; accomodation; activism; anxiety; arts; civil unions; closeted; coming out; conformity; depression; design; dyke; femininity; gender identity; growing up; health; heteronormativity; homophobia; homophobic bullying; identity; internet; intersex; kicked out; media; mental health; mental illness; minority; non-binary; oppression; parents; performance; queer; queer straight alliance (QSA); representation; school; sex; sex education; sexuality; spaces; support; theatre; transgender; tumblr. com; university; virginity; visibility; writing; youth
DATE: 25 March 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Emma talks about representation and the relationship between queerness and mental health.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, I'm, um non-binary. And I'm also sort of fall on the, um, mental illness spectrum. Um, with, uh, depression and generalised anxiety disorder. Um, yeah, uh, when you say non binary, what does that mean? Um, so that means that I don't really identify as, um, male or female. Um, uh, I guess, um, [00:00:30] it, uh it means I don't for me, because I guess it means a lot of different things for a lot of different people. But for me, it means that my gender doesn't really even exist in relation to those things. It's something else entirely. So, yeah. Um, what was the process like coming realising this and coming to terms with your gender identity. Uh, so when I was growing up, I was like, I wasn't really, um, into kind of traditionally feminine, um, like, whatever [00:01:00] society calls feminine things. Um, but because, um, it wasn't really talked about or there wasn't really any education about it. Um, I just sort of figured it was a kind of a thing that was all in my head. Um, and I would just have to kind of like either conform to, like, a role of male or female. Um and so, um, that was kind of what I did, which was not very fun, [00:01:30] but, um, then I came to Wellington, and I came to university here and started, like, meeting a lot more. Um, kind of trans and queer people. Um but I guess, uh, I sort of, um Then then I found Tumblr. Um and what did you find? Tumblr, which is a website on, um kind of like a microblogging [00:02:00] platform. And it's got, like, a really big queer community. And that was actually where I first found the word non-binary. Um and I was like, Oh, this describes my experience because a lot of it because I hadn't really met anyone who was non binary at that point. And, um so I didn't feel like any of the experiences that other people who had met had had really, like, fitted my experience of gender. So when I kind of found out, I was like, Oh, that's that works for me that term. And then yeah, that was basically [00:02:30] it. You talked about coming to Wellington. Where did you live before you came to Wellington? Um so I come from Palmerston North, which is um, an interesting place to grow up in, Um, but, um, it's it's like it's really good, but it's, um, quite small and quite insular and not very friendly towards, um, kind of queer people, especially queer minorities. So, um, yeah, it was, um, [00:03:00] like, it was difficult enough being just queer there as, like, not even being like trans or, um, uh, mentally ill or whatever. Like it's just Yeah, it wasn't really a thing. What were some, um, reactions. You had to coming out to people back in, Um, so when I came out, because I haven't really I'm not, like, super out to a lot of people as non binary, so I never really came out in Palmers north as non binary. Um, [00:03:30] when I came out as gay, um, that was interesting. Like a lot. There were obviously a lot of people who were really supportive, like my best friends. Um, basically, basically told me that they had known for years and years and stuff, so that was really great and comforting. Um, uh, there were some people who stopped talking to me at school, um, which [00:04:00] wasn't like a huge deal. There was kind of a lot more being It was like a lot more of it was from people I didn't know. So, um, like being visibly queer. So like, walking down the street, holding hands with a girl that, like, we had rocks at us one time and, like people were just, you know, yelling like dikes or whatever at you, Um, which sucks. But that's, I guess, kind of the sort of environment. How did that affect you coming [00:04:30] to terms with your identity? I guess it was kind of rough, like it was a it definitely made me wanna be more like, be more of an activist kind of thing for it. So because I guess by that point like I, I think I'd kind of gotten past the point by the, um of of, um, kind of questioning my identity and stuff. Um, like, OK, I think I I mean, I think [00:05:00] it affected me in terms of of, uh, being silent about it. So, um, I did it like I didn't come out for a really long time because there were people like this and incidents like this and stuff. Um uh, because I was really like, if I'd actually kind of I, I think. Possibly, you know, if I'd lived in Wellington, I probably would have come out. And I was, like, 14 as it was, I came out when I was 17, nearly 18. Um, because there just wasn't that there wasn't visibility, [00:05:30] and there wasn't positive, um, kind of talk about queer people. And there weren't queer people in my school, and there wasn't, um uh, QS a or GS a or whatever. Um uh, but once, I like when I did come out and when I did get negative reactions like that, that just kind of made me be like, Oh, my God. This is why, um, you know, we need activism, and we need people. We need more representation for people like me who had to do that kind of thing. [00:06:00] Um, so that's why I kind of, uh I guess that affected me in that way and that I'm now like wanting to make media, um, for people like me to consume so they don't have to go through what I did. Can you talk to me a little bit about representation? So I guess, Yeah, I guess. I think I mean, I don't know. But I think, um, if growing up, I'd had, um a better [00:06:30] representation of a bigger variety of, um, queer people and queer youth, Uh, in the media that I consumed, um, it would have been a lot easier for me to come out. And I would have come to terms with my sexuality and my gender identity. Um, a lot sooner, Um, and in a less kind of anxiety ridden, traumatic way. Um, can [00:07:00] you name some media that is out there about queer youth that you maybe did consume, or like, at that time, Or or now, um, it's like it's way better now. Um, uh, I think there was skins around when I was that age when I was a bit younger, Which kind of, uh and, um, that had a so yes, TV show called [00:07:30] skins that had a, um uh, representation of of two, gay young, gay women. Um, do you think that sort of representation in the media positively helps young people who are coming out? I think it does. I think it does. Um, yeah, I think it would have for me, like I don't I don't know, but I think it would have for me. Um, so I can, like, imagine it being really helpful. [00:08:00] Um, what else is there around at the moment? Um, obviously, a lot of it's still kind of It's still evolving, and it's still, um, problematic. And it's still getting to the point where it's more positive representation. But even things like, um, there's a really, really trashy MTV show at the moment called Faking It, Which is amazing and terrible, but, um, but not not terrible in the way that it's got [00:08:30] a a, um, bad portrayal of queer people like It's not very well acted and not very well shot or anything, but it's on MTV. And so, um, that's such a huge thing. Like it's got an intersex character like a really positive representation of an intersex character on MTV, and it's set in a high school, and it's like pitched at that age. Um, so even things like that, I guess that, and that's a really reason that's only come out this year. But like you can imagine, having watched that as a young [00:09:00] as a younger person and being like oh wow, like I can come out, I can um, be myself whatever kind of thing. Totally. Um, so am I right in saying that you're interested in theatre? Yes. Yeah, I'm a theatre maker. I guess I'm primarily a director and a designer. Um, so how do you incorporate queer representation into the things that you create? II. [00:09:30] A lot of the big stuff I've done recently has been because I've written it. Um, so, uh, I really, really like to write scripts that have, um, queer people in them. Or especially, um, trans people and non-binary identities. Because, uh, like, yeah, so the media is coming to a lot more of like, um, gay and lesbian representation recently, but there's still, like, a shocking death of, um, [00:10:00] kind of trans identities and stuff like that being represented in the media. And when they are, it's often in a super like, um um binary kind of a way. So, like, at the moment we've got orange is the new black with, um, live in cox. And, um, is it transparent? Which is a a, um, not Netflix. It's like an HBO. It's an HBO TV show. Um, and it's, um, about [00:10:30] a older trans woman, but it's still um, there's still very little that exists for like, um, gender, queer and non binary and age gender and, um, like even, I guess you could call them minority trans identities, maybe, Um, certainly non binary identities. Um, and so this show, um, that I just did. I tried to kind of write some characters into it that [00:11:00] were existed, like a little bit outside of that, like, um, especially in the way they were played. So, like, all the characters I think were played by people who didn't identify as that gender, so it would, like, added in another layer of, um, kind of complexity, um, to it. And there were a lot of things about that show that didn't necessarily work. But, um, I think definitely the people who watched it were like, Wow, this is This [00:11:30] is a really different thing that we don't see a lot, um, which is really powerful because it means that not much stuff like that is being made. So, like making it is a really good thing to do. So, yeah, just writing writing characters that have those identities into scripts and writing theatre. That's, um, kind of like radical. I guess and, um and I mean, it has to be. It has to be kind of snappy and entertaining and funny and sexy, [00:12:00] Um, and kind of provocative, though. I like those Are all my buzzwords, my script, Um, and, uh, and when you do that, um, uh, if you're if you're doing it right, you're making theatre. That's not, um, mainstream theatre anyway. And so that becomes much more of an interesting and, um, kind of safer space to to [00:12:30] represent those characters in a in A In A in A theatre, that's not, um, kind of conventional. So even if it's writing, um, like complex nonlinear plot lines or, um, doing theatre in a place or like a space that's a different, like not in a traditional theatre or things like that. And so, um, that not only makes the theatre really interesting, but it also, um, gives you kind of an end to to, [00:13:00] uh, minority kind of issues. Um, what are some shows like that that are happening at the moment or in the not too distant future? Oh, gosh, I don't know. Um, yeah, it's not. There's not a lot of it being written. Um Or put it another way. Um, what can we do as New Zealanders to help support, uh, queer youth and their representation in the media? [00:13:30] There's a lot of things that stop, um, this kind of representation happening. And I think one of the big things is that overwhelmingly, um, oppressed queer youth, especially minorities within the queer community youth, um, are not are like too busy worrying about surviving to be writing representational media. Um, which is, um, [00:14:00] difficult, but so, like, I think, you know, we have to We're talking about, like, complete overhaul of society here. Kind of thing kind of scale. Um, you know, we have to we have to support and, um and like, just make the general world safer for for, you know, for, um, kind of minority youth. Um and I think like as that, that's sort of starting to happen. But like, [00:14:30] as that happens, then we'll be able to say OK, um, now, like, we're going to create spaces for, um, uh, queer youth to kind of do that kind of stuff. So, um, you know, getting, uh, getting queer youth into even like getting queer youth into university theatre programmes. I guess even though I'm like, I'm not sure how necessarily useful that might be. But, um, things like that or just, [00:15:00] um, kind of making spaces and resources in which people can tell their stories in the way that they feel most comfortable. So, um, like, not everyone is gonna want to make theatre. But, um, you know, maybe some people are going to want to make video games like or or websites or whatever. And just like, providing if we can provide queer youth with resources to do that kind of make that media, I guess. Um, but that, Like how you go about doing [00:15:30] that? I could not tell you. You know, um, you talked before about queer youth, um, struggling to survive, like instead of maybe making media. Um, why do you think maybe the queer youth specifically are struggling more with that than others? I didn't really see this happen Or maybe, like, a little bit, but yeah. So where I'm from, um, there is a You know, there's a very, [00:16:00] very real possibility that you will be kicked out of home if you come out kind of thing. Um And, uh, So that's you know, that's a thing that specifically, um, affects queer youth. Um, so, uh, and of course, if that happens, then there's a whole slew of other sort of problems and whatever that that come with that. Were you worried about that? Personally? Yes, it was, um, and [00:16:30] and And you like you pick up on that too. Um, you know, because it wasn't, like in my house. And it's a subtle kind of form of oppression, I think, um, because very rarely is are your parents going to say to you, um, you know, if you ever came out to us, we'd kick you out kind of thing. That doesn't happen. Um, it's just, you know, little things like, um ah, [00:17:00] when civil unions were legalised, Um, and it was on the news, and my dad was like, Oh, what are they doing that for kind of thing. Um, and I was like, Oh, God, Um, well, I obviously didn't think that at the time, but now I do. And I can see that as being one of the things that made me think that he would kick me out if I came out to him kind of thing. And so Yeah. So there's that. That's a big thing. Um, have you since come out to your father? Yes. And he did not kick me out. Um, fortunately, [00:17:30] he wasn't thrilled, but I did have a roof over my head for the remaining year that I was living at home. So, um, good to hear. Yeah, which was nice. Um, I did have a plan, though. So, you know, just in case. Um, yeah. So that's a That's one really big thing the parents thing for, for for youth, I think, Um, accessing kind of accessing. Good, [00:18:00] um, like, health care And, um, like, even, um, even education about things like sex or whatever is really, um, you know, really difficult for for a lot of queer youth, I think just because it isn't that there isn't as much of it around, and that can kind of get you into a whole lot more problems with, um, different things, you know, Um, like, I don't think I'm just trying to remember about whether [00:18:30] we actually talked about gay people and, um, sex Ed and I don't think we did. What was your sex education experience like? It was awful. It was No, it wasn't awful. It was just not Not great. Um, I can't remember anything about it that suggested that, um kind of like it was a whole blah, blah, blah. Um ah, don't lose your virginity kind of thing, Which in itself is super problematic and geared towards like, [00:19:00] heteronormative, um, ways of thinking about sex. And, um, so it was just, um Yeah, it was just really like, I just remember it being really, really heteronormative like everything being geared towards. Don't get pregnant. Kind of that. What do you mean by the word heteronormative? Um, just gear, like so, uh, pitched in a way that negates queer identities as if [00:19:30] as if heterosexuality is kind of the only way of being Or, um And it's not often in this case, you know, I don't think it was done specifically out of malice. You know, it's not saying Oh, queer people don't exist. It's just that they don't think about it. Um, which is is a subtler form of oppression, but it's still, you know, um not great. Um, it was not a very helpful for [00:20:00] me as a kind of queer teenager. Um, and but I like it's it's changing a lot. Now, I think, um, which is good. Even in the kind of four or five years since I've been out of high school, it seems to have progressed. Um, a bit like I know, for example, now that, um when I was when I was at high school, or maybe the year after I left, I think my ex girlfriend tried to start a QS a and they wouldn't let her. Um, but [00:20:30] I know that there's one running now because, like, a few kind of years down the line, uh, another student had, um, that I sort of vaguely know, had managed to start one, which is really cool. And so that was just, you know, isolated in my little small town kind of school. What do you think the importance of QS A is, Is I Oh, I just think it would have been like it would have been so huge for me to have something like that, um, at my school, just because, um, [00:21:00] it would have been a you know, it would have been a really good forum to talk about these kind of things. These challenges that we face like being kicked out of home. Or like, not having a good sex education Or like, um, you know, getting getting access to mental health resources that were queer friendly or things like that, Um, uh, and so like to provide support like that. But also just to be like there are these [00:21:30] are these are who the other queers are. And now I know them. And now I can get support from them, like I'm not just the only queer in high school, which I kind of knew that I wasn't. But also, there was no way for us to really, like connect, so that was really that was not very fun. But you talked before about, um, struggling with mental health. Um, how do you feel that that impacted your coming out experience and coming to terms with your identity? [00:22:00] The relationship between my queens and my mental illness is really, um, interesting. Well, I don't know, Um, because when I was in high school, I, um I was really unhappy, and some of that was unhappy because, um, I wasn't out, and some of it was unhappy because [00:22:30] I was depressed. So there was like, and and a lot of it. It was a lot of the time. It was really difficult to tell the difference. Um, so I guess there's there's always that thing of of question, like, am I? You know, am I just unhappy, or am I unhappy because I'm not out to my parents kind of thing? It was not as simple as that, but if you were to kind of boil it down, um and so [00:23:00] I guess, Um, yeah. So, looking back on it, there was a lot of, like, the kind of mm uh, stuff that happened. And like, the kind of experiences, um, where I was like, Yeah, you know, if if I had been out, it would have been a whole lot better. And part of the cause of that unhappiness was, um was the fact that I was super close and super, you know, not OK with my identity [00:23:30] and in a really, um, not really conservative, but more conservative place. But also, I think it's really it's difficult to separate those two things, Um, and like, definitely now, like, I still obviously, um, have depression. And it's still there, despite the fact that I'm kind of totally cool with my various identities. And so I think, Yeah, like, I guess one of the challenges of that is like, that whole [00:24:00] thing of questioning, You know, uh, whether whether my mental illness is valid, because, um, because it's been exacerbated by, um, my closeted queerness. Um, but yeah, again, that's that's a problematic way of thinking, and it totally is valid. But, um, I guess it just makes you kind of question that when you have multiple kind of things [00:24:30] going on Yeah, can you talk about, um, the response? Talking about your, uh, gender identity and other minority queer identities within the overall rainbow community Or, uh, like, gay community. So, uh, being non-binary in a gay scene or being right? Oh, that's yeah, that's interesting. Um, this is something I've been thinking about, [00:25:00] like, a lot a lot lately. Um, which is the so for a long time, I. I just said I was gay because I didn't particularly like the word lesbian. Um, and I like I really like the word queer. And I still use the word queer to describe my, um, sexuality. Um, but I kind of pe people. People say that um, gender and sexuality are two completely different things than they are. But also, [00:25:30] they have, like, a very interesting overlap and that, you know, if I say I'm a lesbian, that has the inherent implication that I'm a female who's attracted to other females, which isn't true because I'm not a female. Um, so, uh, like, a lot of the time, like a lot of lately I've been kind of thinking about like I don't like, what word do I use to describe my orientation? Because it's so, [00:26:00] um, uh, a lot of those words are so tied up in, um, in in gender. So, like, um, the other night, um, we were at the gay bar in Wellington. And this, um, woman comes up to us and goes, So I assume you're all lesbians, right? Um and it was interesting because, um, [00:26:30] that sort of that was the immediate assumption, I guess. And because various like, so there's various layers there of, like, you know, being not just gay gay, but, um, but pansexual or bisexual or non-binary and attracted to other non binary people as well as female people and whatever. So those words of of [00:27:00] that are used in the broader gay scene of of kind of orientation become difficult and problematic when they're applied to some minorities. I guess so. Very few of the people identified as lesbian. Yeah. Despite the fact that, um, you know, this is clearly, like, this is gay bar. And this is what this woman was thinking, I guess. I don't know. How have you found people? Um, are you out of work? [00:27:30] How have you found coming out at different places at school, at work again? This is the orientation thing. But my most people who know me know that I'm, like, ragingly queer in terms of my sexuality. Um, but, um and so that's been really pretty much totally cool. It's certainly in the place. I'm working at the moment. That's been completely kind of fine. Um, because it's a theatre department [00:28:00] at a university in a very liberal city. Um, and so, you know, theatre. I think theatre is tends to be inherently pretty, pretty liberal. Um, how do you think, Uh, that would be if you were still living in Palmerston North. Um, I think that would be difficult. Like, I think I wouldn't for a start. I wouldn't be able to have the kind of job that I have here that I really, really enjoy. Um, in Palmers north. So I would probably have some kind of job that I probably [00:28:30] hated. Like, um, something in hospital or something. I don't know. Um and I can imagine that being difficult like, yeah, difficult to tell people. And just there would always kind of be that fear of am I going to get fired kind of thing? Um, I don't I think it would entirely depend too. Like, I think if if you're working at a place, um, that tended to be more on the [00:29:00] kind of like, um, I can imagine you know, this. We have a really good library in Palmerston North, for example. And I can imagine if you're working there, it would be fine. Um, but potentially, you know that we also have some really, really, really awful, um, like, dive bar kind of situations. And I can imagine working there and being like, Oh, God, you can't like you can't be gay there kind of thing, because that that whole environment of that place is so geared towards like, rape people's interactions. But, [00:29:30] um, if you could send a message out to coming out Queer youth, um, in similar situations to you, If you could give past 55 years ago you some advice, what would you What would you say to myself? I would probably say, Just get over yourself, Emma. Like, get over yourself. You're gay. Deal with it. Like, um, because I spent so much time ang about it. Um um, yeah, so [00:30:00] I'd just be like, It's fine. You're gay. It's fine. So most people are going to probably be OK with it. And you're gonna have some, like, amazing relationships and friends and stuff who you'll meet through this and like, it'll be fine. It'll be fine kind of thing.

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TITLE: Hui Takatāpui interviews (2014)
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VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; David Kukutai Jones; Hui Takatāpui; Hui Takatāpui (2014); Hui a Tau; Kiingi Tuheitia; Louisa Wall; Maihi Makiha; Marae in the Sky (Auckland); Marie Pa Ariki; Mark Sykes; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Māori; Nanaia Mahuta; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Rotorua; Rule Foundation; Stacey Kerapa; Tabby Besley; Taha Māori; Te Papa-o-Rotu Marae; Waikato; Waikato Raupatu Lands Trust; Whatawhata; Wiremu Stevenson; diversity; family; food; gender identity; hui; identity; kapa haka; marae; mokopuna; rangatahi; respect; sexuality; straight; support; takatāpui; transition; tuakana; whakawhanaungatanga; whānau; women; youth
DATE: 9 November 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Te Papa-o-Rotu Marae, 145 Maori Point Road, Whatawhata
CONTEXT: Participants talk to Tabby Besley about attending the hui which was held at Te Papa-o-Rotu Marae, Whatawhata from the 6th to the 9th of November 2014. A special thank you to the organisers, participants and Te Papa-o-Rotu Marae for allowing us to record. This podcast was made possible through generous support from the Rule Foundation.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So my name is Jay Monroe. Uh, my Maori name is And where are you from? I am from which is the Thames Kraal coast? A little place called Mana. Um, so that's on my father's father's side. And on my father's mother's side. Um, I am from which is 45 minutes. Drive, uh, just before 90 mile beach on my [00:00:30] mother's side. Her father is Irish and her mother is Scottish. Um, what does the word mean to you? Hm? Good question to me means the two aspects of me becoming one. So there's the which is the Maori side. And then there's the for want of a better word, the rainbow side of me. So, [00:01:00] um, collaborates those two energies or those two cultures? Those two, sometimes thought processes or actions or choices, um, communities together. And it becomes that identity for me. And I can stand in that proudly as Maori as a woman, as um and know [00:01:30] that that is who is who I am. And that's how I can define it in the wider sense and then for me personally, Yeah, and how are you finding the oh fabulous. It's It's been challenging because, uh, for those that don't know me, I'm the secretary of the executive committee. So it's taken us a year to get this the planning done and and get to this point. And it's just flowed so well, [00:02:00] so well, the feedback from our community just all the way through has been positive. Um, I'm in the middle of it, so I can't really see on the outside to see how well it's going. Um, but I judge it by the that's come back and the smiling faces every morning that I see and the smiling faces they go to bed every night. Um, and the good food that is given to our our minds, our bodies, um, and our souls for this whole time. So, yeah, I believe it's been fantastic. [00:02:30] What will you take away from Hoak? What if I learn? What do I take away? What will I take away? I think Oh, man, there's just so many. You can't pick one. That's just that's not fair. Um, OK. And short, Lots, lots. Um, key [00:03:00] stuff would be, um, always remember to respect the smallest bit of help to the largest bit of help, irrespective of who it's come from, where it's come from, how it's come, whether it's come in the way that you anticipated it to or not. It's been given in the way that you anticipated or not pay respect to those that have gifted of themselves to the always remember that Always, always, always, always remember that, Yeah, that's the first thing. The first major [00:03:30] thing I'll take away The second is that diversity comes with, uh, which is, um, English word the challenges and that, um, while we celebrate diversity, also acknowledge those challenges, and those challenges can be good. Um, can push us past our our our knowing past our boundaries, and just to explore another perspective, no one says you have to accept it. No [00:04:00] one says you have to agree with it, but you just hear it and just take that on. As for your own self, mull it over and see what it means from another person's perspective. So while empowers and encourages celebration, I want to empower and encourage challenge and to because that's a healthy thing for us to stretch ourselves and each other and still come together with that sense of, um, respect, acknowledgment and love. Most importantly, [00:04:30] yeah. Um, can you tell me your name, age and where you're from? My name is Singer Art, and I'm from South Auckland and I'm 17 years old. How's the week been for you? Oh, amazing. It's Is that, like, this whole thing? Oh, that's, um it's been good meeting people that the same as us, like the same community. And it's good to be around like people that respect you. Not from like where I'm from. [00:05:00] Like, Yeah, I like everyone. I like meeting new people. Yeah. What will you take away from it? Can I say everyone? Yeah. Everyone, everyone. What's your highlight? Been, hm? Meeting everyone. And last night when everyone got ready, went out to watch the performances. Yeah. What does the word Takata mean to you? Um, [00:05:30] to me, it means a community. A family. Pretty much. How's the been for you? Um, good. Coming to, um, something like this as a straight person was allowed me to extend my open mindedness even further than it was already. Um, And to be able to give the [00:06:00] opportunity to be here and be a part of this, Um, yeah, it was awesome. um, very educating for them and eye opening. Um, because they thought, you know, that I would say that I work. They thought that they were the only ones out there, um, and that they were going through this alone. But actually, they're not, um, And to be able to talk to people who have been there before, done this and see them come this far. Um, it [00:06:30] was amazing for the, um What would you take away from it? Um, the board of relationships with people? Um, yeah, that, um yeah, pretty much, you know, coming here, expecting or not knowing what to expect, actually. And being able to walk away with friends, um, that you can connect closely with because they're related [00:07:00] to you or or because you have similar interests, as is really cool. Um, what's your highlight? Been probably just getting together as one and jamming songs, any songs, whatever, and to be able to see people of other ethnicities, um, who have never done it before. Get in there in the front and know, um, some of the Maori anthems by the end of the awesome [00:07:30] I'm Jono, 24 and from a, um what does the word mean to you? Um, it's kind of changed over the course of really, um, coming here was like a word that described a multitude of Maori sexualities and gender identities. But, um, [00:08:00] after a few conversations with some of the here, now, it's kind of like it's, um for me, it's those who identify as so you might not actually be, um you might not have Maori, but you still can identify as by being part of the community. So, um, one of the said to me last night that actually was I born here? Yep. Then you you you're here at [00:08:30] therefore you because you're a New Zealander and, um, you're getting involved with the side of of the rainbow Communities. So it's kind of a lot more complex than I thought it was. So I think Well, I think at the moment I'm just going through a little bit of a how then does do you define, um, how's the been for you? Who's been great? Um, [00:09:00] I. I love coming to to places and spaces that are not about just learning, but learning through ways that my, my people in my community learn. So through talking with people and networking and, um, just sitting around and having someone speak to a topic as opposed to, actually, um, having to [00:09:30] do actual study or having to sit there and have someone talk at you or someone talking with you. What's your highlight? Bring? Highlight. Um, the food was a highlight. Definitely. Um, no, I guess for me, my highlight has been just those little conversations with, um, people from all around the, um, hearing people's experience, especially some of the because, um, [00:10:00] as we saw in the presentation that IC, um did on in regards to the book that they're writing, Um, you have to start talking to our our, um, our old people, because that's where they've got so much knowledge and so much experience that will go when they go. What will you take away? Quite a lot of things. Really. Um, I guess for me, the biggest thing [00:10:30] taking away is this the sense that this community is a lot stronger then I think even they think they are. Um And I look forward to seeing what happens with that, uh, with some of the, um that were put down here to the community in regards to, um the and, um in regards to some of the [00:11:00] the issues that are sitting there that need to be dealt with that I hope people actually pick them up and start active. Activating? Yeah. Activating is the right word. Um, some of the action action. Some of those things. Can you tell me your name and where you're from? My name is Mark Sykes, and I'm from W or Wellington and up here for the lovely We just said, What does Takata mean to you? Well, especially [00:11:30] being Maori means to me a identification as a, um, person. Uh, secondly, as a gay and, um is is a good word because it embraces everyone and able to be carried through in any or any ideas that we can take from this. So how has the been for you? It's been a great experience. It's my first one. It's my first one. And so, um, I've really it's really opened my eyes. I did enjoy the presentation by the different people. Giving these stories [00:12:00] is I think it's important for our young to hear those stories because if they're struggling like we did when we were younger then it makes the journey worthwhile at the end of the day. So it's been a great It's been a great experience, and I really love the input of the, um and getting everyone to join them. So that's been really great. What will you take away from the? Well, actually, we were discussing that this morning I'd take away two things, which means we're a family. [00:12:30] We're all one. Even though we come from diverse backgrounds, when you come together in a like this, you become one family. And I see here some of the struggles that go on for people, um, especially transitioning into different lifestyles. And, um, I think you know, that's what I'm going to take away from. It is that is the fact that we can support each other, and that's what means. And that's what I'm going to take away from here. Um, could you tell me your name and where you're from? [00:13:00] OK, my name is Fati. I'm 26 and I'm from originally from Hoka. But living in Auckland at the moment. What does the word Taku mean to you? It means, um, having an identity. Um, being a part of a collective, Um, it means it means love. It means which is just like they've been connected with everybody. The been for you. The has been absolutely [00:13:30] amazing. The people are fabulous. The hospitality from, um the people of has been awesome, too. Um, what's your highlight Been, Um, the highlight would have to be the discussions. Um, and amongst the various groups of, um and just, you know, hearing everybody's thoughts and, um, being a little bit more aware about, um, you know, the issues and just having that dialogue has been awesome, too. So [00:14:00] I've learned so much. That would be the highlight. What will you take away from the, um, a sense of pride? Um, yeah. Just, um the the friendship. The, um the as I said before, um, the networks and just, um yeah, the, um can you tell me your name, age and where you're from? Uh, David Jones. I'm 40 I'm from in the Waikato. Um, what does [00:14:30] mean to you, uh, specifically, to me, it means gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, Um, queer intersex. Um, how's the been for you as an organiser, especially. I'm just really, really overwhelmed. I was overwhelmed by, um, the willingness for my, uh, really, really traditional and conservative [00:15:00] relations here at the to host it. Um, but once they understood the nature of the issue or the the the the nature of the of the actual itself, they were really sympathetic, and that's what brought them on board. It helped having the king's permission as well, because we're all subjects of our king here in the Waikato region. And so when he gave it when he gave the blessing, um, then everybody came on board, too. I'm more so absolutely overwhelmed by just the broad cross sections [00:15:30] of, um of attendees, people from all around New Zealand even further, a far as, um, as the Cook Islands with the queen of herself coming over. Um and, um beautiful um, our, um GL BT. I, um youth, um both Maori and non Maori, Um, and all of the rest of our fabulous community all coming together. And that's what I was overwhelmed [00:16:00] about. I mean, this is the apparently, this is the biggest one that's ever been. And, um, we owe it to all of those people that actually came because they they either liked the venue or they liked the different nature of this particular programme. Um, or they may not have been able to meet as often as they could have. And so I was sort of really, really humbled by by all of that. What has your highlight been? Um oh, [00:16:30] it was the, um my was some of the men doing, um, beautiful on the which had often been perceived as being the domain of, you know, the straight Maori and that sort of stuff. So that was one, But the other one was also, um uh, the show that was on last night where we had a lot of performers from around New Zealand and around the Pacific as well who had come? Um, but it's all [00:17:00] been due to, um, people's willingness to participate and contribute. Um so, um, lands Trust for all of their beautiful sponsorship. A lot of our local, um, health organisations the New Zealand New Zealand AIDS Foundation has been amazing too. And now, um gay New Zealand pride Um, what will you take away from the, um, me personally, I'll take away a deeper understanding of issues that affect, [00:17:30] um GL BT Q I communities. See before this. And the only reason why I did the is because I was told to and I So it was my aunt who's Trans who wanted it. But, um uh, because I'm a male, I had to formally do the request on behalf of her and, um the here, um and so I was a little bit anxious because, uh, although I am a Maori male, um, my own sexuality is just a small part of who I am. I'm [00:18:00] all sorts of different things and nothing at all as well. Um, so I didn't really know a lot about, um G BT Q I, um theory, um issues, organisations, health providers and all that sort of stuff and some of the issues associated with access to services and all that sort of stuff. I didn't sort of know all of that. So, um, for me, uh, being around a lot of those providers and people who are either on either side of as the health provider or as the client, um, [00:18:30] it taught me a whole lot about those sorts of things. My name is Mahi Maha. I'm 33 years old and I come from And what does mean to you, to me is more than just, um, an identity. It's it's more than just a, um it's more than just LGBT To me. Ta ta is a life. [00:19:00] It's my heart. It's my passion. It's who I am, it's it's everything. And I think, um um can be wrapped up into a wider family. It's It's another word for family. So it means a lot to me because family does mean a lot to me. And so, um, yeah, that's what means to me. How has this been for you? This has, um I've been a part [00:19:30] of the last five and helping and organising them. Um, and I have to say this one has been the biggest in regards to participants. Um, this one has been the most, Um, it has been honoured by high dignitaries of the Maori community, Um, for example, the king to doctor and the [00:20:00] Queen. So to have those people acknowledge and look at us and treat us like everyone else is a big honour. So this week has been a really, really I don't know what the words are for it, but it's been like what we haven't had one like this before. And so I believe it's been a big stepping stone. Yet we've moved from the last one, and we've moved up to the next level. And I'm looking forward to Gisborne [00:20:30] for us taking on the Ranga movement, which is really cool because it's been a I know it's been something that's been missing from the last week. So I can't wait for Gisborne because is going to be. And we're going to have to lead our lead our our oldest. Because, yeah, they've had their time and they want to sit back and relax now. So it is time to shine. Awesome. Um, what's your highlight? Been of the highlights? Highlights. [00:21:00] A highlight of the for me has been, You know, a highlight for me was having the here and now, opening the words that she gave her words of wisdom, her words of leadership. Her words of, um the Because she's from here. Having her presence has been a huge highlight to me, her, Louis, all our speakers. Auntie Chantel. [00:21:30] She was so awesome. The work she's doing in Australia. So those workshops are really, really cool. Another highlight for me is, um of course, My youth, my little youth, my little youth, Um, present. Yeah, for Yeah, that and of course, our our poor the night. Yeah. Where can you go on and looks so flash and so posh and yeah, everyone dressing up and having fun. [00:22:00] Um, And what will you take away from the What I will take away from the is It's the movement. That's what I'm taking away. And that's what I want to To help support Ranga. Um, have a voice have a role to play in the next week. So I'm taking that, and I'm going to push it and support. However, I can, um, to make it happen for the next one. can you tell me your name, age and where you're from? My name is Stevenson. And, um, I'm 27 [00:22:30] and I'm originally from What does Takata mean to you? Ah, means to me. Um, it means, um a sense of identity for myself. Um, within the Maori context. Um and yeah, it means it means that I It helps me to remember that I have a place in maori, Um, in a cultural context, um, in terms of who I am [00:23:00] and my sexuality. Um, yeah, that's what it means to me. How's the been for you? The has been great. It's been good to, um, be surrounded by like minded people. Um, of all, um, flavours of the rainbow. Um, so I guess, um the strength that you take from this and, um, knowing who you are and being proud of that is something that, um, that that I that I get from this is one of the best things that I get from them. [00:23:30] What have your highlights been? Um, my highlights would have been, um, speaking to, um, my and the the people that I look up to and and in this context, um, and hearing their stories and, um, yeah, just them, I guess just being there to me and and get me ready for my I guess my my own widdle that I have, um, for this [00:24:00] community, what will you take away from the, um what will I take away from the, um Well, I've been given a few little jobs and things to work on for the next um, so I guess one of them will be to, um which means just to make my Maori as a little bit more better or as better as as good as I can get it. Um, And I guess putting myself out there a little [00:24:30] bit more because my two kind of that are here are not going to be here forever. Um, and yeah. So what I'm taking away is is is quite a, um it's quite a heavy suitcase full of, um, full of, um, or challenges that my older to have laid down to me over the past three days. Um, yeah, that's what I'm going to take away and work on in the next couple of years. And I should be back bigger and stronger in the next two. Yeah. Um, what's [00:25:00] your name and where do you come from? My name is uh, so I hail from Harbour. I was born and raised here in Waikato, and, um, I'm also from Hastings Wait. And from the nation of what does mean to you, Um oh, it's been a long, long process, understanding the word for me. And it's [00:25:30] something that I haven't always agreed to, or in fact, even wanted to be part of, Uh, but it's growing on me. So for me is probably an embodiment of a community that don't fit social norms. Um, do you want to tell me a little bit more about your journey to it? Uh, my journey to it started 23 years ago. So, um, we were just counting the photos on the board, and there's 28 of them there. So between those photos and myself, we've been to [00:26:00] every from the beginning. And, um, I actually grew up in a family of drag queens. So when I left my biological family and I decided to go to Auckland and live, I met a great group of people and we were called in the sky and we lived in LA Street, and, um they were drag queens and gay men, and I was the only trans person in the house. So they took me in, and I became part of the family and whatnot, and they started exposing me to many facets of the queer community. And one of those things was the Maori facet of [00:26:30] the community. And this thing called the or the so before we actually had it was just called the and so that's where it came along to and we started attending and we started being part of it. And it was something that I started to really enjoy because it meant I got to meet so many other people that were coming to the from all over the place and some towns. I never dream of going to myself, I'm sure. You know, and, uh, what, they were coming to this thing called the And it was one time that we all got together to meet one another. Talk [00:27:00] about things that were happening in the community, talk about ourselves and how those things have, um, either made us or broken us and made us better in the long run. How's this been for you? Uh, this particular who has been an awesome having it down here in, um, probably more so to the fact that I have many or younger, um, younger, younger members of the and community working with. And I take my head off to those ones because they've held true to what they do, and they do it [00:27:30] really, really well, there would be Ray Ray and a also known as Miss Maranga. They do the they do their jobs. Really, really well And one thing that they've been able to able to manage to do, which has really made me really happy, was to educate their own their and their about diversity and how far this community reaches and how, um, diverse that we are. And we, no matter where we go, we adapt. So it's getting iwis to learn that they can adapt and to accommodate every facet [00:28:00] of their family. And that's what I think has been the true part of this work. Um, what if your highlights been, uh, my highlights? My probably probably one of my main highlights would be, uh, the that we put forward to carry the on and also the, um, group singing and kapa haka that we've had together because we've just covered every everyone's iwi every other motto and we've done it right here on the What will you take away from the What will I take away from the, [00:28:30] um Oh, So who are we? Where are we going and when are we going to do it? And I think that those were the things that I'll take away from that and knowing that one of my other have put their stood up and taken the and asked for it for her. And I will work closely together. And I also start working closely with the younger ones that have come forward and have talked to me about where do I sit in terms of the pipeline? Will I be allowed to talk? Will I be allowed to call [00:29:00] and I? I do believe that there is a place for them. It's just how do we develop that place and where we will take? So that's probably what I'm taking away from this for you. Yeah. Um what are your names and where are you from? I have some here. My name is King and born in the East Coast. I come here and I live in now. This is my [00:29:30] Hi. My name is Thompson. Uh, I have links to this. This, uh and I also have links to the West Coast where I'm currently living in. Can they speak our own language? Yes. Um, what does Takata mean to you? Well, for me, this is the first time I've had anything to do with it. [00:30:00] And I've really enjoyed what I've heard and what I have learned from all the happenings that we have had during this last few days. And I think it is lovely because that helps me because I've got grandchildren. That's, uh uh, you know, what do you call it? Different genders or whatever. So that will help me to help them, you know, to understand what's happening with their bodies or whatever. That's what I'm saying. I just [00:30:30] learned about what I can say. Just help my young, younger generation, uh, to me is a all embracing term, uh, for, uh, men and women, uh, who don't fit the stereotype of the heterosexual. Um, so it's an abrasive turn that to to [00:31:00] me. And And I like using it because it doesn't pigeonhole people into separate categories. Uh, and, um, categorise them by their sexual behaviour. Hm. How has the been for you? Oh, it's been magnificent. It really has been. We've had such lovely days and just mixing and mingling with everyone, all the friends and family. It's just been marvellous. Marvellous beer. I'm going to go to the next [00:31:30] one next one. Yes, I think it's been enormously successful. Um, it's been a combination of, uh uh uh and, um, a cross section of people from different cultural groups. Uh, a broad cross section of, uh, people have come from all corners of the, um of this country of a Also, they've come from Australia [00:32:00] and also from South America as well. Uh, and the success of it is because we've had huge support from the home people, uh, who have, uh, diligently manned the kitchens or woman the kitchens for the entire period of time. Uh, without whom? Of course, we wouldn't have a successful. So we we thank them enormously, uh, for their contribution to making this a successful event. Um, and it's, um, being [00:32:30] held on the here, uh, has been wonderful because we have been able to, um uh we've been able to hear their skills and oratory, and, uh, we've been able to observe the of our people and our people who have been in the kitchens, uh, 24 7, uh, in supporting their, uh, uh, their aunties to host [00:33:00] all their from everywhere. So it's been, um, yes, a brilliant time. What have your highlights been? Highlights have been, I think, um, seeing, um, 100 and 70 people descending on the marae at the time of the, uh, the highlights have been the incredible, uh, diverseness diversity of people who have arrived, Uh, the skills that they have, um the, [00:33:30] um the the, um Also the presence of, uh, Nana Mata, um, Les Wall, who was instrumental in the passing of the, um, uh, the recent, um, marriage act. I can't remember the name of it, but you know what I mean, Um, and all those skills that both those women bring, uh, and the civil Union act as well. Um, and we acknowledge that [00:34:00] all those, uh, people who have worked tirelessly over the years to bring us to this position where we we're able to have this kind of, um, these discussions and, um, political analysis and dialogue of where we are, Um, and the kind of, um um, challenges that are before us as well. Um, while we're celebrating, uh, we're also really aware, uh, that there are huge [00:34:30] challenges out there, uh, for particularly for, um, But we think that given the, um, given the, um, the support, uh, and the input, uh, by all people here that, uh, we're able to, um, meet those challenges head on. What will you take away from the I've just got two types of ice cream, [00:35:00] comrades, I think the loving of one with another. That's what I will take away. And remember, it always has been such a marvellous, marvellous we love. Yeah, I just think the, um you know, the celebration of the human spirit. Uh, the celebration of us as people celebration of our our our our [00:35:30] schools, our diversity, Uh, the ability of young and old to come together and have a wonderful time, uh, and, you know, have a really celebratory time and also look and also look ahead, uh, with, um, you know, be realistic about the challenges ahead, but, um, lots of things. Equal rights for all. That's what Auntie says equal rights for all all persuasions.

IRN: 830
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_rainbows_jenna.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004324
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089618
TITLE: Jenna - Beyond Rainbows
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Beyond Rainbows (series); Hui Takatāpui; Hui Takatāpui (2014); Rotorua; Rule Foundation; Tabby Besley; Tauranga; Te Papa-o-Rotu Marae; Tonga; Whatawhata; arts; coming out; culture; depression; discrimination; faggot; fakaleiti; family; friends; health; hormone blockers; hormone replacement therapy (HRT); makeup; mental health; name change; poofter; psychiatrist; school; school counselor; school uniform; sexualisation; sissy; stigma; straight; takatāpui; television; transexual; transgender; transition; youth; youtube. com
DATE: 8 November 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Whatawhata, Whatawhata, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Jenna talks about being young and transgender in 2014.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I was born in, um, South Auckland, and I've grown up there all my life. Um, it's been a pretty It's been OK, I guess. Like, there's the good and the bad, But somehow I think my community is stigmatised. Um, and the stereotypes of the bad corrupt the good. So, yeah, it's home for me. Um, And where are your, um, your parents and your ancestors from, um so actually, my my mom is [00:00:30] from, but she grew up in Tauranga. And my dad, um, is from Tonga. Um and he moved to New Zealand. I'm not sure when, um, I didn't get to know my grandparents because my dad's side, they live in Tonga, and my mom's died before I was born from alcohol poisoning. So yeah, that was kind of bittersweet. I mean, it was kind of sad because, like, I I've always been jealous of people [00:01:00] who, like, had that whole Oh, no. Yeah, I'm going to my grandma's this weekend and, like I I've never had the opportunity to say that. Do you have much other extended family? Um, no, not really. To be honest, I'm not such a family oriented person, So my friends for me are my family. Because in a way, I was kind of, um, put to the back or kind of shunned past because of who I am. [00:01:30] Um, yeah, I was always looked down upon and, um, it actually just made me strive and motivated me to, like, show them that I was just like them and I could do just what they could do, and even better. So yeah. Yeah. Cool. What words do you use to describe your identity? Um, I use transsexual, um, or transgender. Um, I grew up with the term because I'm to But, um, for me, that [00:02:00] doesn't really doesn't really go with me, because that's like a lady. And I'm It's more, um, flamboyant and more, uh, drag. But I'm trying to live as a woman, so yeah, transgender and transsexual. And how did you, um, tell me about your journey? Discovering, um so I've always been more. I've I've never been a boy, and I didn't understand why people were like, Why don't [00:02:30] you just be a boy? But like, for me, that was never in. Um, that was never the case because I never knew how to do that. Like all I knew growing up was what I was doing, which was like when my parents would bring out the toys. Like I'd always go for what the girls would go for. Like when I was at kindergarten, I wouldn't be playing swords and pirates with the boys and Sam. I'd be dressing up in the girls dresses and the cloth rack, so yeah, um, and my family, My mom, Actually, when I was young and growing [00:03:00] up, she was in full swing. It was almost like she, um She wanted me to be a girl. Like when I went when we went to the shop and I would grab girls stuff, she was fine with it. She was like, Oh, what about this? And, um, when my dad found out because my parents split when I was born, he was like, trying to tell her like, Oh, what are you doing to that boy like you shouldn't be doing that to him. Um, and she she didn't care. She didn't care. It wasn't until I got older that, um she [00:03:30] started noticing it more. It wasn't that, um when people would be like, Oh, is your, um is your son gay, and she went No, no, no. It's just the face. He's just feminine. He's just feminine. And, um, it got to so severe to the point where she ended up, Um, not accepting me, she was very, um, ignorant to what I had to say. Um, she said she was like, Oh, no, you can't be gay, because if you're gay, you'll go to hell, [00:04:00] and I won't let you do that like I'll kill you myself if I have to. Like, I'm not going to let my child go through that. Um, so it really did scare me, But, um, I wasn't I wasn't gonna lived the life that I was living because I was unhappy. And I had, you know, like, it was just all I knew. And I didn't want to try and start being a new person because that just wasn't me. Um and so my way of coming out, um, was by my [00:04:30] school grades because my parents both were, um, dropouts. And they wanted and all my siblings had dropped out, and so their hope and their dreams rested on my shoulders. Um, so I worked hard. Um, and they my mom ended up telling me. Yeah, well, if you keep up with your grades, you can do this. And so that's exactly what I did. And, um, she ended up getting more surprised because she noticed it wasn't a gay thing. Like it wasn't like, Oh, yeah, I like boys. It was [00:05:00] Yeah, I like boys. And I'm a girl because I always I wanted to be a woman. Um and, yeah, I. I started hormones and yeah, it's been It seems like it's been a long I've lived a long time, but I'm only 17. So yeah, um, when you were growing up, did it feel like people were trying to put these other labels like gay and yeah, yeah, it did. Um, and I really hated it because I knew the terms were generalised [00:05:30] for gay men, not necessarily men who were wanting to be women. And that's why I hated it. Like I really I hated it. And when people were like, Oh, are you gay? I'm like, No, I'm straight because I'm a girl and I like boys, but people just never got it. And, um, yeah, I really despise people who would use, like, faggot and post and sissy and Yeah, and it was really depressing. And as a child, like, [00:06:00] I just I just felt like I was experiencing way too much shit for my age. Like I was, like, in primary. And people are like, Oh, you faggot and stuff. Like what kind of seven year old should have to go through that, like being depressed and shit like it wasn't a life and that my mom told me like, Well, if you're gonna act that way, you're gonna have to be strong because life in the fag land isn't for the faint habit. Yeah, So I had to learn how to stand my ground and use my mouse as my [00:06:30] defence mechanism. And I did. How did you figure out that, um, that you could be Trans and that you could take hormones and things? Um, so I came across, um I was watching TV one and 2020 came on, and they're doing a special on transgender, um, girls. And that was the first time that I had ever heard of or seen it. I was like, Oh, my gosh, There's a word for this. Like for [00:07:00] girls that were born in the wrong body. And, um, yeah, it was really It was It was mind blowing. And I was just like, Oh, my gosh. Like, look at that girl. She's like a girl like her parents, her, her hair and, um, put on makeup and live the life that she wants to live. And, um yeah, and that was my first experience. And I told my mother, and at the time she was like, Oh, no, those parents are silly for letting their Children do that because all that's gonna happen is she's going to go to hell. But I didn't even hear that. I was just like, [00:07:30] I totally want to be like that. If that's what I am, I'm like, so embracing it. I want to do that. I want to be like that. And yeah, I knew that it would take a lot of work because, um, because it was really hard to like I was young, so I had a lot of growing up to do. But I also, um I researched and stuff as well, So yeah. What kind of reactions did you get from other people from, like, friends [00:08:00] or, um So, like my parents and, like all of my friends, always knew that was new. I never, ever had a girlfriend. I never kissed a girl. Um, I never had boy mates. I always hung out with the girls. Um, so when I actually did come out as not being gay but Trans, they were like, yeah, we knew all along like we knew you were a queen or along. Um, yeah, because when I had other gay friends and they were like, Oh, yeah, he's pretty hot and oh, yeah, when [00:08:30] we go to when I grew up on, like, wear like the tucks and skinny jeans and all the stuff And I was like, Well, when I grow up, I want, like, hair to my hips and a dress. And so, yeah, it wasn't a big surprise. And, um, I've always been quite, um I've had quite a popular school life. So, um yeah, that made it easier for me because a lot of people accepted me for who I was because, um, not because of who I was, but because of my personality, first and foremost. And, [00:09:00] um, they knew that they wouldn't see it changed like it was the same person, So, yeah. Where did you get support from? Um, actually, when I was growing up, I didn't have, um I didn't have anyone. I had to learn everything on my own. And it wasn't until I actually the journey to starting hormones that I ran into my school nurse and she had told me, um oh, I can see that you're, um you're different, um, to the other gay boys. And I was like, Darling, I'm [00:09:30] not a gay boy. I'm a girl. And she snapped her fingers. That mean she was, like, Right? I know what to do with you. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, am I in trouble? And she's like, No, I'm just gonna get these two, psychiatrists to come see you. And I was like, What? What the fuck am I mean sorry? I, I Yeah, And, um and they ended up coming in. They told me that, um, that there was a terminology for this, and it was transgender, and I was totally with it. Um, and I was keen, and I told my mother and she totally [00:10:00] flipped it. She totally flipped it. And she was like, No, what? You want to be a woman. Like what it mean you want to be a woman? I thought you were just gay. Like you want to be like those what? Those Chinese and on the corner and da da da. And it really upset me because it was like I thought that I had come so far and she had accepted me. But she had accepted me for being gay, not necessarily a woman. And then I told her about hormones, and she was like, What? You gonna I'm not having these strangers injecting. My, um my son was, um, chemicals [00:10:30] And you taking pills like and so I had to push hard, and I had to research, and I had to prove to her that it would be OK because, um, my mother was very overprotective of me because of who I was. And, um so, yeah, I, I think all it was was her just being a mother. But I was determined to prove her wrong. And, um I did, and I ended up starting and I was very, very happy. Very cool. [00:11:00] How long have you been on? I've been on for 11 months now. Um, I it's actually been 13 months on testosterone blockers and 11 months on oestrogen. Um, it's been really good, because I feel like up until the point of me starting, I felt like the pain of me not being on it was just getting worse and worse. And I was just Oh, I was hating it because I was developing more as a male, and I just didn't want it. Um, and so when I did start, I was ecstatic. And it's been a great [00:11:30] journey, even though I've only been on for 11 months. Um, I've noticed heaps of changes, and I just feel it just puts not only physical changes, but, um, my mentality, um, it's put my mind at peace that, um, yeah, I feel a lot more comfortable and, um, in my skin. So, yeah, um, do you have many other trans friends or trans community? I do. I actually was a part of a big [00:12:00] train group in, um, Auckland, but we fell apart because we realised that it was just our creative differences. Didn't, um, they didn't fit right. But I do have a couple of close friends now, and I came out. I came out before them. So then coming out was like I made sure that I was there for them and I could feed them all the knowledge and wisdom I had. Um, and yeah, it's It's great. It's It's [00:12:30] a It's a sisterhood. I would I would say that because, yeah, we're there for each other. And it's like we connect on a different level than friends because they know what it feels like for me to walk out every morning to have to put up with people's discrimination and, um, stereotypes and stigma and how it feels that, um, to just build up the courage just to walk out the house. Um, yeah. So I definitely love. Yeah. I love my girls. [00:13:00] Um, do you face much kind of discrimination from people? Um, not necessarily. I think it's because I'm actually quite an intimidating person, especially in school, like no one will step to me at school because yeah, like everyone seeing me get ugly, and I don't even like it, so Yeah, but, um, no. Yeah, because and I've earned my respect because I people just there was just too much stereotypes over, um, Trans girls like Oh, yeah. Oh, She's looking at me. She wants me, and she [00:13:30] wants everyone like, Hello. I have standards. And, um yeah, and people ended up seeing that. I wasn't under those stereotypes, and I was just a normal person. And so I've been accepted and almost embraced. Um, What about the the school and the teachers? Yeah, Um, my, um the school has embraced me as well. I've been, um I've transitioned in school, and I'm registered under my preferred [00:14:00] name now, and I wear the girl's uniform, so I'm really happy about that. Um, my teachers as well, I've They've always been, like, accepting of me, so they adjusted just as well as I did. So I'm also happy about that as well. Were you the first gentleman at your, Um no, I wasn't. There was one. There was a Yeah, there was one for me, but yeah, Was it an easy process to kind of get your name changed and we Yeah, Yeah, it was It was, [00:14:30] um it was actually easier. Way easier than I thought. It was just a letter and yeah, I didn't even need permission to switch uniforms. They were just like, Yeah, cool. How do you feel that your, um your culture intersects with, um, with being trans or do you think you have a different experience? Um, to say, um um, yeah, I do. Because in my culture, being to they don't know, transgender isn't the thing to live as a woman. It's just for the laugh, like [00:15:00] it's just to be, um, more prorogation and, um, to be over sexualized. And it's all about that. And what they do is, um, they're used almost as like maids, like they appreciate them because they have the domestic skills of women and the masculinity skills of a man so they can help out with whichever chores. But when they told me that, like No. Yeah, you know, these are supposed to [00:15:30] do this and that. I'm like, Darling, I'm not I'm a woman. Mhm. Um, have you had any, um, role models? I have had a lot. Um, I won't name any of them because Yeah, that might be, um, a bit thing, but yeah, I've I haven't, um, met them, but I've seen them, and I've seen their journeys, like, follow the, um, their transition. And it's really inspiring to see that, [00:16:00] um, because they're quite They're way ahead of me. And so it's, like, great to see, um, the outcome of it. And like the struggle and the tears and sweat, it's all worth it in the end. Yeah. So I'm definitely Yeah, I definitely have it wrong with us. Um, you say you, like, followed their journey. That stuff was that, like, online on YouTube. Um so, like, watching them start from being men and transitioning, being on hormones and recording transition videos and seeing like it's almost [00:16:30] like a video timeline. So it's great to see what? That the process? Because sometimes you don't notice it, um, from yourself. But you can if you put it into perspective and see it on other people, it's it's great to see. Um, So we're doing this interview. Um, the, um how did you find out about this? Um, so I had I'm with a company, and, um, yeah, I found out [00:17:00] through them, and actually the term I've only recently heard about it. I thought it was a new thing, but coming here and learning that it's been around for years and years and years, it was quite shocking because yeah, because I never knew that, um, the Maori term for it. But it's good that they have. They do have it. And, um, it's great down here. Yeah. Um, did you hear about it for the first time? Kind of finding out about the Yeah. Yeah. Um, and how are you finding being at this? I'm loving it. It's [00:17:30] great to see so much, um, older, um, trans women here and seeing the journey. And I'm just like, oh, wow, like they're stunning. And they told me like, Yeah, you know, just keep at it and push and you'll get there. But it's great to see, like someone who's way older, like, because from where I come from, I don't see much girls that are older than me. They're all around my age, and we're just all starting. So you're coming down here and seeing girls who are, you know, well established. It's just like how amazing, Stunning. [00:18:00] Um, what do you think you'll take away from the, um, I generally think I'll have I think I'm definitely being more comfortable in myself and more accepting of the fact, Um, that I am, um and yeah, it's just like a lot of I'm just a lot of, um, gratitude towards all the older girls who have paved the pathways for us because some of their stories are just heartbreaking hearing about how they were treated in their days [00:18:30] and you know, me thinking that we're struggling and we actually have it really great compared to what they did. Um, so do you feel like you use the term? Um, yeah, and I kind of do. It's just almost like it is a It's a multi terminal. It's Maori terminology, but I do because it covers, like, the whole spectrum. And it's not like, um, it's not a lab. Like [00:19:00] a labelled thing. It's like it's whatever. Like, Yeah, So you're talking about the, um, some of the gentleman here kind of giving messages to you. What message would you give to other? Um, um I would definitely say if you're struggling, if you're still, um, on your way to coming out and you're scared and you can't tell your parents it it takes time. Or if you haven't been accepted, it takes time. It definitely takes time. Um, I know these girls out there that are hungry for it, and they just want it like that. They don't wanna [00:19:30] be women overnight, but it doesn't happen like that. It takes years of pushing and, um, of hormones and hard work. And yeah, but it definitely takes time. You you will, You will not see, um, effects overnight, that's for sure. It's a It's a continuous journey. Um, how have you stayed so strong? Um, and I actually I don't know. It's just the motivation. You know, when I get really dumb and stuff I, I realise why I'm doing this. And that's my [00:20:00] fire. That's that keeps me ignited to keep going. Um, yeah, because I don't want to see people. I don't want people to see me fall because that would give them happiness. And I'm not having it. Um, where do you say you are at now? Um, in your journey. And where do you want to? Um, I know I'm still a baby. Like I know I'm still a baby. Um, but I do. I'm planning on just doing what I do, and, um, hopefully getting a job in the future to [00:20:30] make some money for, um, some of the surgery someone, um, and settling down, um, being well established in my own home and stuff. And yeah, and what kind of work or study do you want to do? Um, I'm really into cosmetics. I love makeup. Um, I think it's it's art. It is, honestly, an art form. It's not something that's necessarily just generalised as, oh, just to make me pretty or because I'm ugly without it. It's art [00:21:00] like you can do so much things that make up. It's an endless Um, yeah, it's an endless thing that Yeah, it's great. Um, and what's your favourite thing about being, um, in? Um oh, wow, that's a That's a hard question because, actually, I don't know. It's just like I think it's almost like because we are different, like and, um, yeah, even though we [00:21:30] are a minority, I think that's the the beauty about it, Like your you know, some people see it as a burden, but I see it as a blessing, like you're one in a million. That has been, you know, like it's I feel special, like, yeah, I feel special.

IRN: 803
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/last_chance_film_evening_discussion.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004323
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089617
TITLE: Last Chance film evening discussion
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Abraham Naim; Christian Desroches; Marianne Elliot
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Abraham Naim; Amnesty International; Aotearoa New Zealand; Brendan Goudswaard; Canada; Christian Desroches; High Commission of Canada; Jeff Whittington; Last Chance (2012); Maldives; Marianne Elliot; Miss Capital Drag (2014); National Film Board of Canada; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Ngā Taonga Sound and Vision; Refugee Convention (1951); The Gambia; United Nations; Wellington; activism; asylum; convention refugee; discrimination; disown; drag; gay; hate; homophobia; homosexual; human rights; immigration; law; lesbian; media; persecution; refugee; religion; transgender
DATE: 7 October 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Ngā Taonga Sound and Vision, 84 Taranaki Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from a discussion pre and post screening of Last Chance, a documentary that tells the stories of five rainbow asylum seekers who flee their native countries to escape homophobic violence and intimidation and seek safety in Canada.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi, everyone. Um uh, welcome to this film screening this evening. Very grateful for your presence. Uh, my name is Christian. I work at the Canadian High Commission, and, uh, while I I'm here to give a few very brief remarks early on I I have to acknowledge that most of the work was done by colleagues who are sitting here. Uh, and Marianne from Amnesty International did a lot of the paid work here. And, um Hickey, my colleague at the high commission also, uh [00:00:30] uh, did some, um, uh, some of the some of the work. So thank you for for organising this. Um, I just want to say a few words about the film. Uh, it tells a story of five LGBT people who are seeking the right of asylum in Canada in order to escape persecution or homophobic violence in their homelands. It was produced by the National Film Board of Canada, and I just wanted to be clear that the National Film Board is a government agency, but it's fully independent, [00:01:00] so you'll see that it's not a Canadian propaganda film or anything. Actually, you'll notice if you pay close attention that it is quite critical of Canadian refugee policy in some instances, because we've announced a number of reforms in recent years, which I I'd be happy to discuss with any of you afterwards. Um, so what? What made the film interesting. The reason we chose it is that it focuses on two critical human rights issues refugees and the the rights of, uh, LGBT [00:01:30] B Peoples. Uh, on the issue of sexual orientation. Um, homosexuality is still against the law in no less than 80 countries and at least five countries have laws that allow homosexual acts to be punished by death. Uh, in some cases, these laws are unenforced hangovers from an, uh, a bygone era. But in others, they're actively and viciously implemented. Uh, so obviously, you know, for for us as Canadians. And I'm sure many Kiwis feel the same way, uh, to [00:02:00] to have governments actually enact draconian punishment and violence inflicted on people just because of who who they love and who they are is is unacceptable. Um, so we've been quite vocal, uh uh, in efforts to encourage countries to decriminalise homosexuality and and to confront hate crimes and decriminalise and discrimination that targets LGBTI people. Our Foreign Minister John Baird takes pride in being one of the loudest voices, uh, calling for change, often at the [00:02:30] discomfort of people across the table. As he said in a recent speech, So many of the, uh LGBTI people who face persecution, uh, come to countries like Canada and New Zealand to seek refuge to seek refuge. And there are other, many other progressive and welcoming countries around the world. And the issue of refugees is the second human rights issue I just wanted to briefly discuss, um, there are an estimated 15. 4 million refugees in the world today, and [00:03:00] the country resettlement programmes only admit about 100,000 of them every year. So that's a very, very small percentage. Although I I'm proud to say that Canada welcomes one in 10 of these resettlement, uh, refugees, uh, every year. And there are a number of people who also make their refugee claims in Canada. Uh, last year we had about 10,300 the people you'll see in the film today did that. They basically applied for a visa, a tourist visa, a temporary visitor visa. They arrived in Canada, and they claimed [00:03:30] asylum. So obviously people like me who work in embassies often we try and keep out people. You know, we don't give them visas if we think they're going to claim asylum asylum, so it puts us in a difficult position. But, uh, I think that's why we need our civil society colleagues to put pressure on us to keep the doors open and and be welcoming to refugees. Um, so you'll see in the film, uh, that, uh, that, you know, the five, people were highlighted in the film are facing face struggles, and it's not easy. Uh, but we do have support [00:04:00] networks to help them, and, uh, they're not happy endings for all of them. I think, uh, as you'll note, uh, not not everyone ends up getting asylum. So, um, happy to, uh, to be part of this event this evening. I'm looking forward to our panel discussion later, Later on in the evening. And I, I especially look forward to, uh, hearing about Maduro's own experiences, and I have to say, you look wonderful this evening. So, uh and, uh, I I did read, uh uh, about you there. And there was some coverage in the media. So I'm looking forward to hearing firsthand [00:04:30] what you you you had to go through. And I think that, uh uh, um, we we all need people here to be seized of the issue. And, you know, people like you need to put pressure on people like me to make sure our governments continue doing the right thing. Thank you very much. Mhm. Well, thank you for staying. I'm Mary Anne Elliott. I'm I'm, um, from Amnesty [00:05:00] International, New Zealand. And, um, I just wanted to say a few things, and then I'm going to introduce Madu, who will be back here in a second. Um, I was really struck in your opening comments, Christian, when you said that, uh, there's a There's a great need for those of us who are in civil society. Those of us who live in the community who care about this issue to keep pressure on decision makers in government, [00:05:30] um, to ensure that countries like New Zealand, similarly to Canada, who have, uh, who are known around the world as having in many ways, um, who are known around the world for in many ways having a strong policies to ensure that we do recognise and, uh, accept cases of conventional refugees, but we can't afford as civil society [00:06:00] to let the pressure come off. And as we heard, um, in this film as we saw the stories of people like and Carlos, Alvaro and Jennifer, we have, um, somebody here with us this evening. Mela Oblongata. Who, uh, is here and has very kindly, um, offered to speak to some of her own experiences that mirror some of the experiences of the people who [00:06:30] are in the film. Um, because it the story, as we saw, is so much more complicated than what Maybe it often appears when it can seem that that first stage of having, um, your application for refugee status approved can perhaps seem like that's the end of the journey. But in many, many ways, it's just the beginning of another, equally complex journey. [00:07:00] Anyway, enough from me, I'd like to welcome the wonderful, um, mala to the stage. And she's Well, this is awkward. I've never done anything like this before, so yeah, um, so I'm Mallah, um, also known as Abraham. Um, I'm originally from the Maldives and I am a convention refugee. Um, I was granted refugee status last [00:07:30] year in November, but as you did say that my experiences does mirror what the film does show. And I commend the makers of the film for making this and showing this side because, um, I had to do, like, a lot of research, um, before I even attempted to seek asylum. But, like, I am actually very fortunate and and fortunate enough in the sense that I had actually lived in [00:08:00] New Zealand prior for six years as an international student. And I did get to know people, and I did get to make friends and get involved in the community here. And in 2008, I was a safe sex poster boy. So, um, there was like when I came over and sought asylum, Um, there was like, I felt a bit of a disconnect, Um, in the sense that, um, I barely, like, met any of the people involved in the [00:08:30] process. And I had only ever, like, um, talked to my lawyer, and I saw him, like, total of maybe 34 times maximum. And the whole process was just like, seven months. And like, I appreciate that, and I think it's great. But there are still a lot of, um, up and coming legendary Children like such as these people on the movie. And also, some of the world's famous people have also been refugees such [00:09:00] as male uh, Albert Einstein. Sigmund Freud. Uh, and we wouldn't have these people if, um refugee status, whatever didn't exist. I also, um, left the Maldives when I was 13. So, um, I was fortunate again to have lived abroad and have had, like, a Western way of thinking. But, like, [00:09:30] uh, I went back in 2010 after I had told my parents that I was gay, not Muslim and a drag queen. And what they my dad had said to me was I would prefer you to be a drug addict. Um, and actually, I have four siblings. Uh, they're all drug addicts, and they would prefer my dad would prefer them to me, and that's really sad. And the person who raised me, um, my mom died when I was six months old. Um, [00:10:00] my aunt raised me. She said, I don't have to talk to people of your standard, and my stepmother said to me. I feel like vomiting. Like these are people that I don't need in my life anymore. Thank you for bringing me to this place. Like where you gave me birth and life and whatever. But like, I think I meant for bigger things than like and I couldn't have done those things in the Maldives. And when I was there for the two years [00:10:30] as an adult, I have never been more scared in my entire life. And I had organised two protests calling for religious tolerance. And at the second protest, um, we were attacked with cobblestones, and the police had arrested one of the participants. Um, and they started investigating why we had this protest in the first place, and they held him, um, in jail for like, about a month. [00:11:00] And Amnesty International had actually declared him a prisoner of conscience. Um, and later on, he his throat was slashed and he had a 1% chance of survival, and he survived. Um, and soon after that, um, he even addressed the UN. Um, and he was offered, um, asylum, But he has not actually received it yet, and he is currently in limbo in Sri Lanka. So if y'all have any air points that you want to donate, please, [00:11:30] it's a good cause. I don't know, Um and I didn't specifically think that my life was gonna, like lead me to this place where I would be standing here talking to a room full of people about my life. Because, really, what have I done? Nothing. But I think I am here now to talk to you because there is, like, a bigger calling for me to try and help these up and coming legendary Children because they need to be nurtured and [00:12:00] they need to be loved and protected, and they're not getting it from where they are, so I don't really know, and I don't really know what else to say. So if y'all have any questions, I'm happy to answer that. Um, you said that, um, you didn't have anything to contribute, [00:12:30] but I would say that you're a survivor, and you've also got the experience where you actually can make a difference. You can work with Amnesty International, and you can, um, empathise with the these other people who are going through, um, you have a lot to offer, and it's wonderful to see you taking that as your in life to, um, to to use your experience because [00:13:00] you could just go off and become the host. Oh, believe me, I tried. Well, I didn't get the job. You you could just leave that behind you and say, Well, that's all over and done And, um, let the other spend for themselves, but not everybody. Give her a [00:13:30] do. You still have family that are really important to you? Um, my closest would be my siblings that I really care for. Um, and currently, it's just my sister and my oldest brother living in the Maldives. Um, one of my brothers had married and got UK citizenship. So he's good. Um, but, um, another brother of mine, he's, um, advocating for secularism. And, um, he gets attacked a lot. [00:14:00] Um, on the internet. Um, and dad has also disowned him because obviously not the same ideology thing, and yeah, also, I'm disowned as well. Yeah. So yeah, I have a couple of siblings that I care about that are still there. I can't I can't go back and see them because, um, after the Miss Wellington competition, which I entered and won, just by the [00:14:30] way it means nothing. It means nothing. Because I didn't even get a crown. Will not go there, though. Um, after I had won after I had one, the president's office of the Maldives had released a statement saying that, um, anyone seeking asylum based on the grounds of sexual orientation and religion will be persecuted if they ever return. So definitely I cannot go back because they are also drafting the death penalty bill. Like how to go about it and everything. [00:15:00] So that's my future. Don't want it. Thank you. Uh, the first lady my mum used to have a dress similar to yours when I was a child. And I loved it so much. Um, yeah, I was just I was wondering, um, if you kind of thought that there were because obviously, within our own society, we sort of suffer. Um, uh, our society has with, like, discrimination and things like that, and I don't know how [00:15:30] you you think if you think there are any ways that supporters of, um, you know, refugee acceptance for people, um that have come to the ref refugee system. If there is any way that you think that we can kind of make you feel more accepted in deciding when you know that there are still problems with I I'd say maybe, Actually, let's establish sort of, um, an organisation or something that will help convention refugees. Because, let me tell you, when I went to the refugee [00:16:00] services, um, here in New Zealand, um, after I arrived, they said, we can't help you because you're not a quite a refugee. And I had received no help apart from that of my friends. So thank you, Phil, for giving me a bed. Um, thank you. All my friends, uh, that are here today for being there for me and making it possible. Um, like, [00:16:30] for someone to just come over on, like, a tourist visa or whatever, Um, it would be hard for them because there is no help available. Um, and the documentary also did say something about the fact that all the facilities are there to help, but, like, they won't let you in the country. So we need to change that talk about that or something. I don't know. Yeah, just maybe, on that note, I know that Christian is happy to take questions as well if you have questions. [00:17:00] Um, it certainly was striking to me in the documentary when they said there is that very interesting and and, uh, really very difficult tension where you have countries like New Zealand and Canada that have a sort of on the books policy of, you know, being open to and being able to accept convention refugees. But you have visa officers and consulates who are effectively, [00:17:30] uh, implementing a policy of don't tell or don't certainly don't make it easy for people to find out or to or to make those applications. And I don't know if you have any experience of that or information of that. And then maybe we can also ask a Christian to speak to that as well. I don't actually. But when we were talking yesterday, you said you you certainly. Or maybe it was you. And who said that you had some You know, some information about how difficult it can be when you go to an embassy or consulate. Yeah, [00:18:00] there's there's no like I. I literally had to spend two years actually researching the process of how to seek asylum, and I had to, like, dig deep into the New Zealand immigration website, um, right into their like how to deal with refugees like hand book guide thing. Um, there is no public information about any of this because I don't really know why whether, like, they don't want you to come or whether [00:18:30] they want to help but don't want to like, it's it's a tough call. So, yeah, is there anything that you can hear me or I guess, And I'm not an immigration officer, uh, per se. So I I've always kind of observed the process from the outside, and when I was in Nigeria for three years, I could see a lot of people were trying to come to Canada to claim asylum. I guess the issue is if you go to an embassy or a high commission and [00:19:00] you say, Well, I want to claim asylum, then we'll say, Well, yes. The UN High Commissioner for Refugees is based on this this address. Please go and file your claim there because we want to try and control the process. And the issue in Canada, you know, which has a very generous refugee system, is that once people are in Canada. Even if the claim is unfounded, it can take 4 to 6 years to process the claim. And then at the end of that well, sometimes they're married, they have Children. And you know all of these. [00:19:30] This process can be very time consuming and expensive. So the issue is how can we try and make the system a bit more efficient? Faster. But obviously, if you told if you were in a country like Nigeria, where I was where you know, 70% of the population live on less than $1 a day and say, Well, if you want to claim asylum and come to Canada based on sexual orientation, come and apply. You'll have millions of people showing up and one of the issues that's not reflected in the film. There are actually a lot of people who claim [00:20:00] asylum based on sexual orientation who are not being honest about it. But if they come from a country where there's the case for other forms of political persecution is not strong, they will try to make that you can hire a coach in Montreal or Toronto to try and act more gay. So you can pass through your refugee hearing. There's a whole cottage industry of people of lawyers and consultants like that who will who basically feed off the system. So I guess one of the issues is how do you make sure the people who really [00:20:30] deserve you know, asylum and deserve protection get through the system and not people, you know, trying to come for other reasons. And it's a challenge for governments because we have limited resources. You know, we can't let everyone in, you know, even if we'd like to. And so the process becomes, how do you make that selection process fair and manageable? But it's not easy. It certainly wouldn't be like ones that would appear on TV or video like the Colombian one [00:21:00] who got sent back like he had his eyebrows done. He was pretty gay, like he was as gay as you get, like you sent him back. There is all this public, um, media. Whatever about him. He is gonna get persecuted when he goes back. Well, you wouldn't put yourself on the line like that if you weren't gay. Well, and it's not clear what's unfortunate about the movie is I'm not exactly sure I know what what circumstances. But I guess for a long time. And this is not, [00:21:30] um uh I guess it's not a common knowledge, but the last bastion of political patronage was immig, immigration, refugee board appointments. So if you had done political favours for the party, they'd give you a job. So the people were not very, uh, educated, did not have proper training, and so you'd have people making life or death decisions like this who are not probably the best people in the job for the past few years. We've professionalised that a bit, so we're we're still working to improve the process. But [00:22:00] the reality is, and I think one of the, uh, uh, academics who was interviewed on the panel, uh, said that, you know, there are a lot of there's still a lot of prejudice in a place like Canada and, you know, some people will say, Well, he doesn't look gay enough to me, and, uh and you know, a person will be sent back, so it's, uh it's obviously a teachable moment if something like that happens. But again, you have this issue where if you're, um like no one will ever know what happened to this person. The person who made the decision will [00:22:30] not be reading the news in Colombia. And it's just like if you're a Visa officer, if you refuse someone, there's no cause. If you accept someone and that person goes to New Zealand or Canada and claims asylum, you can be sure that Visa officer will say, you know, well, case number 17, 38 71 that you admitted, uh, three months ago. He's now made an asylum claim. So you're not doing something right, whereas, you know, if you just refuse a person, you don't have to worry. And that's again. It's just bureaucratic [00:23:00] convenience and efficiency. And that's why again, I said, as as someone who works in government, we need civil society to keep us honest. We need you guys to talk to, to make you know your views known to politicians. So they tell people like me, Well, you need to open the doors a bit more, but you know, it's the process won't work if civil society is not engaged. And just with that in mind, I was wondering, um, how difficult you actually found the process when you made your application, we saw in the the film that [00:23:30] people had to provide evidence of the sexuality. And I've come to New Zealand from Scotland, and I find it really difficult just to find evidence of my heterosexual relationship, which had been six years long. And that's sort of basic, you know, bank statements and R things and stuff like that. But to actually provide evidence of did you have to provide evidence of your sexuality and things, like how difficult that actually was for you to, um I did have to provide evidence of my sexuality. Um, but they were [00:24:00] documented in this instance. As I mentioned earlier, Um, I was a foster boy in 2008. So, um, New Zealand kind of knew my face, but not really like who I was. Um, but that's also fine. Um, then I had all these photos that circulated around on the internet of, um, me with boys and drinking and dressed like this. I mean, but there might be someone out there who you know who doesn't [00:24:30] do this and, like, who is who is more like straight acting, non scene, sort of really find it difficult to actually produce that it would be really hard to. But like, if you if you are not something I don't think that they would come out and say that I'm gay. I need I need your protection. And I need your asylum. Please give it to me like you wouldn't do it like otherwise. Like, that's my personal feelings towards that. So, yeah, [00:25:00] when you went back to the, uh, Moga in 2010, were you able on a confidential basis to get close to the GL BT community and talk with them and share your aspirations for what you had for trying to get refugee status, which you Dev wasn't an LGBT community per se that existed in the Maldives. But after I did win, um, the Sex Expo to Boy thing in 2008, [00:25:30] I did create an LGBT community support group called Rainbow Maldives, which is an online forum to, like connect people. And, um, we did have that, but it was all very anonymous and no one really wanted to meet up or whatever, But then the people had anonymous profiles and they're all into the whole hooking up and whatever. Like that's not what I was about. Like I wanted to, like, get people involved and talk. Um, So when I went back, um, I did make friends with one boy who [00:26:00] was a neighbour, but he was also, like, very camp and very overly effeminate and gay. And he had drag queen friends in the Maldives who, um, perform at, um, circumcision parties, which is? Yeah, for seven days long. They just party, like after they cut your tip off. Yeah, I don't even wanna go there. Um, So, I I met some of these drag queens, and I saw a couple of them perform, and, um, it was interesting, but like, [00:26:30] they were all just telling me about stories of how they get abused, like verbally and like psychologically and blah, blah, blah, And, like, a lot of them do get, like, beat up as well. So yeah, fell. Just looking on a few secrets here. I think you've glossed over a couple of things relating to New Zealand and what the government has done. I believe our government is very much in the same boat as yours tightening [00:27:00] up. But because we have this is a good one. I, I knew, knew before he was working here in town. I knew him to get up at a restaurant. We got online and he said, I'm thinking of coming back from New Zealand. Let's for a visit But in the meantime, he's firing me papers about what's going on now about being gay. So anyway, I'm long story short the he says. I'm arriving on [00:27:30] so and so and that that was fine. So I get teed up to go to the airport. Bear in mind, we know you know where it is. It's quite a long way. The airport is not. It's like being on the same island as one airport. He's got to get on board to get across there. Well, on the day he's due to arrive, there is no fact. And the first thing I thought, God, what's happened is someone stopped him getting here. And but did you say you gonna miss the plane or something? I missed the plane. [00:28:00] So here's me a New Zealand thing. I'm gonna get sprung here. So anyway, he finally arrives. Now, the thing that happened, I should getting here. He had a visa. Everything was going to be doing. The bottom line was that No-one knew what his ultimate motive was. OK, having got here, I'm giving you a move over this here, and you need speed that mind and object to that. Um, I'm on a big moment so that I was home. But we took a day or two [00:28:30] and then decided to go through the process of him applying for asylum, which is great, because the biggest thing he had was he had all his research hero very much in that one, where they ticked all the boxes about persecution. That reminded me so much of what you went through, and that was there. But the point is, I got very, very frustrated because I'm not a not a sort of daddy, not a full of money, money, I, I do think. But he was standing there with very little money [00:29:00] and we went down to a refugee centre just below us in street. They couldn't help us. So what do we do now? He put through his passport, they accept the application. But we entered a lawyer and which was another issue finding a lawyer in Wellington. We found we found one, but still works up to. No problem was there's no transport in there. He had no money to get on a bus. So 62 to me. So we went up there and he's [00:29:30] starting to panic because the lawyer is very. He is slow and I'm trying to say to him, Look, this guy has got it right. He's checking all the boxes, just please and patience. Meantime, he's got no money to buy cigarettes or anything. I don't like smoking. I phone. But anyway, cut a long story short. There he been, was fine. There was quite a long time with the application. Once that application was lodged, he was underway. It was recognised that there was an application and and I don't [00:30:00] know. So that film was six years or something? Well, unfortunately, we got a bit shorter that. But what I got a bit upset about in New Zealand was he could not get a work permit or something temporarily to support himself. There were things here that our system needs to look at if you don't if you fall between the cracks right there. But one of the questions was, Where's the mountains? I thought, Well, he could have seen on Mars, but some of the people we were dealing with didn't even know where he came from. So, uh, that was an interesting can of works, [00:30:30] too. But we got to that. Unfortunately, we had another person who used to work with, knew a lot about the way to things and do it he got. And from that point, things started to play. But had it been anybody else who suddenly come in without me or or people, I don't be fact, we look at genuine. He was a second asylum seeker. I think he would have [00:31:00] quite a bit of problem. You eventually got a work permit, which meant legally everything happened. But from from a personal point of view, I think that the time and all the time he could it be, is no answer. Well, OK, yeah, I have permanent residency now, but that doesn't mean like my ordeal is still over because my current passport expires in two years and I can't renew my passport. So in two years, I become stateless. Um, technically [00:31:30] speaking, because I cannot go back to renew a passport, and there isn't a Maldivian embassy anywhere near here. Um, so and And also a couple of people did offer to marry a but he didn't think that it would be fair to them. And it certainly wouldn't be fair to Abraham. And also, I don't believe in marriage. So, like, I wanted to do like this on my own merits. I wanted to stay in New Zealand [00:32:00] on my own merits, and I think I did prove it. And I think I have a lot more to show the world. So I don't know very quickly just to squeeze it in so, you know, persecuted in the Maldives, Dangerous for you to be there. Here you are in New Zealand. Amazing. We're so free and accepting. But in actuality, you know what? What's the reality of that? How safe are you in the in New Zealand as a gay man [00:32:30] and a drag queen, I mean, it's like nowhere. Are you 100% safe? Because in every society there are these people that will, like, fight against whatever you are. And I have known people here in New Zealand that has been beaten up like there is Jeff Briton, who was actually murdered, um, because he was gay. And I know a fellow drag queen, Ellie Cat, who was also, um, gay bashed, um, dressed as a boy. But like, you're never 100% [00:33:00] safe. And like, though I am able to still walk around dressed like this as a lady of the night, like, it's still quite terrifying, but also liberating and fear kind of never leaves you, but, like, you just have to make it, like, part of your companion as a companion and just go with it and just feel it. And, yeah, distrust yourself. Cool. Thank you so much. [00:33:30] You can sit down. You can take that. I really just I want to finish up with one last thing. Which is that, um, yesterday, Anne and Abe and Mo and I were talking about that. Obviously, the provision of safe refuge through processes like the Convention on Refugees is incredibly important, but that the [00:34:00] real solution that all of us want, I think, and I hope I can speak for everybody in the room is that it is safe for everybody everywhere to live their lives as themselves. Um, and whatever that means about who they want to love and who they want to be with sexually. And, uh, so one of the things we just wanted to draw your attention to is that that really is. That's the big game, right? I mean, that's really it's wonderful for us that we end up with some extraordinary [00:34:30] people coming to join us in New Zealand because of this process, but that the long term goal would be for all countries to be safe. And unfortunately, that is very far from being the case and that there are places around the world right now where we see regressive steps being taken in terms of the rights and protections for, uh, homosexual, gay, lesbian, transgender and intersex people. And there's many, many instances of this, and there are many opportunities for us to come [00:35:00] together as a community of people who care about this and take action. But I wanted to draw your attention tonight because sometimes when we when we watch a film like this, there's a a desire to take some action now and to do something useful right now. And Amnesty International right now is running an action, an urgent action in relation to a homophobic bill, which is, um, being, uh pushed through the legislative processes [00:35:30] in Gambia right now. And, uh, we, uh, have a, um a sign up sheet in the foyer. We are collecting names for a petition calling on the president of Gambia to stop this process. Uh, when I read the statement from President Yahia Jamma of, um, Gambia yesterday, I was so utterly horrified that I'm going to read it for you. Um and [00:36:00] I apologise because it is extremely, um, violent. And and and and yet I think sometimes it's important for us to remember that this is the reality that people are being subjected to. And this is not a statement coming from some bizarre fringe element. This is a statement from the president of Gambia who recently said that, um, those who promote homosexuality want to put an end to human existence. It is becoming an epidemic, and we will [00:36:30] fight these vermin's called homosexuals the same way we are fighting malaria, causing mosquitoes, if not more aggressively. And this is the extraordinary hatred that is being, uh directed towards our brothers and sisters in Gambia right now. And I know it can feel overwhelming to confront that kind of hatred. But what we've learned at Amnesty International is that when we do join together and refuse to be silent [00:37:00] in the face of that kind of hatred, when we stand in solidarity and say, this is not OK and we will let you know from across the world that this is not OK, it can make a difference. So I would please encourage everybody here to take a moment to add your name to that action and trust that, um, this is it's not a meaningless gesture that when many, many, many people come together, we've seen these kind of situations be reversed so we can do that. And, um, we [00:37:30] can continue together to take many more actions like that to ensure that less and less people have to make the choice of leaving their families and their homes to seek refuge in places where they are provided at least more safety, if not perfect safety. Thank you so much for being with us. Um, and thank you to all of you for coming tonight and for for being concerned about and, um, committed to making a difference. Um, for [00:38:00] everybody everywhere, um May we live, all of us to see the day when we don't need this kind of refugee status. Um, and in the meantime, let's keep the pressure on Christians. No. Well, on all of our governments to make sure that we can consistently improve how well we deal with this. Thank you. Thank you.

IRN: 819
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/south_wei.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004321
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089615
TITLE: Wei - South
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Beyond conference (2013); China; Civil Union Act (2004); Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Rule Foundation; South (series); Tabby Besley; The Queer Avengers (Wellington); UniQ (Otago); Wellington; activism; bigender; children; civil unions; coming out; community; discrimination; education; equality; facebook. com; family; femininity; friends; gay; gender binary; gender identity; homophobia; lesbian; marriage; marriage equality; media; parents; politics; queer; racism; school; sexism; sexuality; shemale; social media; social networking; stereotypes; transgender; university; writing; youth
DATE: 13 May 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Christchurch, Christchurch, Canterbury
CONTEXT: In this podcast Wei talks about identifying as bigender and queer.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How would you describe your identity? Well, um, queer. Yeah, I would. I didn't find myself as lesbian if people ask. But since I'm, um I'd say I'm like bi gender as well, so I'm not quite sure about the lesbian, So just quit in general. Yeah, just quit. What does, um, queen mean? Well, um, I'm not sure if I OK to call, call myself a lesbian because, [00:00:30] you know, like, um, in general is obviously, like women, um, sexually or emotionally, um, attracted to to women. But I'm not quite sure if I would call myself a lady, you know, in the first place. That's why I like I said, Well, I'm a lesbian now. I just call myself queer. So, yeah. Do you think the language that we used to talk about sexual orientation has changed much over time? And I guess so. I guess so. [00:01:00] But then again, like people, um, like nowadays, I don't think most people know much about people's gender and sexuality. Like very well. Yeah. Yeah. What does it mean to you to be bi gender? Well, to me, Um well, I, I think I am by gender for part of philosophical reason. Well, because end up another part of the reason was before, when I was younger, I, [00:01:30] um, thought I was transsexual because I just, like, wanted to be a guy. And, you know, because to the society is like, uh if you are not, like, feminine enough or you you know, you should be feminine enough. If you are a lady, you should, like, wear pretty dresses and stuff. But that's not like what I liked when I was younger, so I thought, Oh, maybe I want to be a guy and I thought that way for a long time. That's why um, I always thought I was transsexual until [00:02:00] maybe, um, when I turned 16 or 17 or something, and I was like, Nah, that's all bullshit like, yeah, you shouldn't just act a certain way. The society wants you to act like, you know, if you are a lady you can like, wear guys's clothes and stuff, you know, you can do guys things, and, you know, you don't have to just do the girly things that you you should be doing. So, um yeah, so I guess that changed a bit after that. How did you realise [00:02:30] that you didn't have to fit into, um, society's kind of stereotype of what it means to be. Well, um, I learned a bit about like, um, people's, you know, like, gender and sexuality. And, um, like, traditionally, obviously, like, um, gender is binary, which means there's only male and female, two genders. But, um, actually, I think there should be like, you can have two genders at the same time, or or not non gender at all, you know, or just become like me. Yeah. [00:03:00] So it's not necessarily has, you know, has to be just male or female. Yeah. And also, like, um, they are transsexual people as well, so they are, like, definitely more than two genders. Yeah. When did you start identifying as bi gender? Probably 19. Just a couple of years ago. Yeah. Since I learned a little bit more because I I've only been in this country for three years. Um, so the first year, basically, I was just going through, you know, language, [00:03:30] barriers and stuff. So I you know, I didn't know much about this kind of things and probably, you know, since maybe two years ago, I started reading a bit more and had more ideas about people's gender and sexuality. And I decided, Yeah, this is me. Yeah. And when did you first become aware that you were queer? Um, I kind of discovered I'm gay. Um, when I was maybe 13. Um, what messages [00:04:00] do you remember getting when you were growing up about what it meant to be gay? Well, because Well, from where I'm from, China is it's not very, uh, socially acceptable thing over there. Even nowadays, um, it's becoming better in our generation. But, like for people, my parents age is still, like, not a socially acceptable thing to be queer. Um, it's like it's obviously illegal. And if you [00:04:30] act like gay in public, people would be like, Oh, that's gross. And, um, a lot of people will be like, Well, get helped. And, you know, like, Oh, you you will be helped. You can, you know, turn straight if you try hard. It's just a phase you're going through. It's Yeah, kind of like what some Catholics say. Yeah, to be honest. Um, So were you out until when you were living in China? Well, [00:05:00] I was, um I came out when I was 16, but only to my friends. To people of my generation, but not really to my parents. What responses did you get from your friends? Well, they're like, Yes, it is. Yeah. What was your, um, school like, um, all banned. So, you know, I just had to keep it secret. Yeah, I had a girl. Yeah, not really. Girlfriends, But I had a crash in high school and, yeah, just had things with girls, [00:05:30] but, um, didn't really, like, didn't come out to my teachers, obviously. Just, um some close friends classmates around me, they knew and they were, like, sweet. Yeah. Um, And have you since come out talk to any of your family? Well, um, I came out to my family. Not really. All family, Just my parents when I was, um, before I turned 18. Yeah, that's when I just arrived in New Zealand. I wasn't good at first. [00:06:00] It was terrible. Like, yeah, they got really, really upset. And it took them so so long to, you know, accept it. Yeah, but now they're OK, but it just took so long. So much effort. Yeah. What brought you to New Zealand? Hey, what brought you to New Zealand. Um, well, first of all, it was for education. And also, I just didn't want to stay in China, because, um, I spent 17 years over there, so I just kind of want to change. Yeah, [00:06:30] just to see different places. Plus, I thought, you know, um, New Zealand, you know, European countries probably like better with, you know, um, being gay. That's what I thought as well. Yeah. So I was like, Well, New Zealand seemed to be a nice place. Might give it a go. Um, What are you studying? What have you said? Um, I did a lot of papers, like accounting economics and different mathematics and calculus papers. And, uh, I'm doing, um, [00:07:00] 30 year philosophy and mathematics now and thinking about doing another two years of journalism after getting my bachelor's degree. Yeah, um, as the university seem to be a supportive Oh, yeah, Yeah, of course. I think so. Um, because when I was first enrolled in uni after high school, I heard there some communities, like, um, at uni University of Canterbury, and they seem to be really nice and supportive [00:07:30] group of people. What gives you a sense of community and belonging. Well, to me. Um, well, I've never experienced community in China, but in here, um, since I moved to New Zealand, I found the community and the, um, queer group is, like, really supportive here. Um, especially, um, Well, [00:08:00] in Christchurch, it is actually like, um, not much in Christchurch, but, um, they are, like, groups of groups of people that, you know, um, organising events every now and then and stuff and like, um, pretty much everyone knows everyone here, and plus, Christchurch is quite a small town. And the community, the queer community here is not very big. So I think it's very good that, um, like, people can get to know [00:08:30] each other and know the fact that, um, like, we're all here to support each other. So, um, that's a really good thing. That's why I think community is definitely necessary. Yeah. Why is it so important to you? Um, I just think knowing there are people that are are there for me are being supportive, and we're all you know, the same group of people is it, um makes me feel secure. Yeah, that's why it's important. [00:09:00] Do you think um, things like Facebook and social media and the Internet are playing more of a part in the way that we kind of find that community and information and connect with other people. That's the only way I get information pretty much not just because I'm I'm a young person. Just I find it, um, as the easiest access. It's the easiest way, um, to access information about, um, events and, um, all the, you know, information like resources and stuff about Korea, [00:09:30] um, on the Internet. And, yeah, Do you think it's harder to be, um, queer in the South Island? Well, I can't say it's really hard because it's definitely being like, um, being queer, being socially, more and more acceptable nowadays. And, um, I find it generally fine, but I'd say it it would be easier to be a queer person, um, to be in Northern Ireland, to be honest. Yeah, because, um, [00:10:00] probably it is to something to do with the culture difference as well. Um, like in some cities, like bigger cities like Wellington, um, it's just easier. And more communities like a lot larger groups, more events and more support, um, supportive people and here, it's more like, Well, there are many, many, um, like, racist and sexist. You know, those those people bogus [00:10:30] in Christchurch. And those people are generally a bit homophobic as well. Sometimes. Yeah, there. Not many of them. But there are still people like that here. Yeah, so they are the only problem, otherwise, just generally is It's all good. Yeah. Um, how do you feel about the way queer and Trans people are represented? Um, in the media and pop culture? Well, and in the media, you know, when people introduce, like, queer or [00:11:00] transgender people, they they just, you know, introduce us as queer or trans women Trans men, you know, stuff like that. But to me, it's not really relevant, to be honest, because, um, I think it's much deeper than how we are represented in the media. The thing I think, why? Why being trans or queer matters is traditionally because of it's where it came from. Is is the gender binary [00:11:30] thing. It's like Well, um, you know, a man should be should be like a man. A woman should be like a woman. That's why when when it comes to issues like Trans issues queer issues. It becomes an issue because of the gender binary thing. That's why you know, you should look at people in other ways, like there are a lot of more things that actually matter rather than your gender sexuality. Yeah, that's what I think. Um, have you seen your [00:12:00] identity reflected at all in, like, books? Or maybe your TV? Like any characters or storylines that you could relate to? Not really. Right. Do you see, um, intense people stereotypes much and those kind of things? Well, sometimes on the Internet, like, um, in the media, they would represent, you know, for example, uh, [00:12:30] trans men, for example, to be like very, um, feminine, tall, muscly, black. That's what I say in general. I know it's not good, but it's, you know, stereotypical. But that's what I say. So, um, there's definitely, you know, stereotypical types in the media. Yeah. Where do you think you can see those kind of stereotypes? Just random articles. Pretty much. [00:13:00] What would you like to see more of in the media? Uh, well, to me, I my opinion might be, you know, a bit different than most people was to me. I really don't like the word. The word trends. Because if you identify yourself as a man, you are a man instead of trans men or whatever. So to me, I just think, um, I would like to see the media [00:13:30] to get rid of the the words like Trans or, you know, you know, it was like that that the term, like, male female, you know, terms like that. Yeah. Yeah, and same as, um, gay marriage. It just a marriage, Not gay marriage. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, not every story about the Trans person needs to be about their family. Or but that's always brought into it. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I think. What about [00:14:00] on, like, movies and television and books and things like that? Well, I think the same. It's all the media. Yeah. Yeah. How do you feel about the marriage equality bill that passed last year? Well, it's definitely a good thing, because, um, I have a little bit of knowledge about, you know, the LGBT care liberation in New Zealand. And, um, that's, um, that started in 19 seventies, and it's definitely been a long and, um, tough [00:14:30] journey for the LGBT community in New Zealand. And, um, the, um, civil union in 2005 was definitely a big thing. And a great improvement. Um, but yeah, last year, I. I totally didn't expect it to, you know, happen this fast. I knew the marriage bill is gonna pass at some stage, but definitely not this fast. So I would say, like, I was really happy about it. So [00:15:00] finally, equality. But, um, I think it doesn't mean that, um, like, homophobia, you know, like, um, discrimination against, um the queer community has disappeared. Definitely hasn't. They are still, like people that, um, you know, are quite against, you know, queer communities. But, um, it has definitely prove improved a lot. [00:15:30] Yes. Since last year. Yeah. Yeah. Like in the recent years, Did you watch the, um, of course I did. To celebrate. Of course. Yeah, yeah. Um, we had, um, an event like, um of the queer community. We went to this place in town, and, um, there was a big screen, and we're all watching it together. All the queer people and just waiting for the the last announcement, like 77. 44. [00:16:00] I think that was it wasn't it. Yeah, and everyone was just like, Whoa, and just all, like, jumped out and yeah, just all celebrating together. Yeah, some Some people, like, yeah, had tears. I was like, Yeah, I was just so excited. Yeah, it was, um, unforgettable moment. Have you been involved in, um, much activism or, um, any other kind of following politics in New Zealand around? Uh, mostly, [00:16:30] Yeah. Um, I think they are more, like, you know, um, protests and stuff in one as well here. Not very much. But, um, I do participate, and I write articles on, like, queer liberation and stuff. Yeah. And what are some of the things you've been involved at the moment? Um, queer Avengers? Yeah. What are they? They are a group of supportive people in the queer community. [00:17:00] Uh, yeah, not much. But, um, I have been to the events a couple of times. Yeah. And what was the last one called? Yeah, beyond. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I went to that conference as well. Was it? What was that conference about? Oh, God, was it? Last year is just a lot about, like, gender and sexuality. And, um, like the queer community in family workplace, [00:17:30] Um, education. A lot of a lot of information. Yeah. Do you have any highlights, highlights or anything? You kind of really take away? I actually, like I went to the the parenting panel because I was really interested. I thought I was gonna have kids. And that's why I was like, Well, uh, yeah, it's just It just gave me a lot of, um, information on how, you know, as [00:18:00] a queer parent would do about the parenting and stuff And, um, like, and you know about, like, kids, you know, getting bullied in school and being in queer and that sort of things, Yeah. Queer politics. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think? Some of the most important important issues facing we train people in New Zealand are at the moment. Well, at the moment, it's just, um, like in in the general society. [00:18:30] Like how? Um, many people still can't accept it, and they are still being discriminated against. Yeah, Sometimes, as I said, it's it's getting better, but it still happens. Yeah. What do you think some of the solutions might be to that? Um, probably through more through social media and education. Yeah. How do you see social Media and could play just more, you know, advertising, like against, [00:19:00] you know, um, homophobia against transphobia And, you know, just more advertisement on that and about equality. Yeah. And more education on gender and sexuality. Yeah. Where do you think we might be able to be in 10 years time in 10 years time and say, um well, II, I can say I hope, um, for equality will be achieved. [00:19:30] And I think we will. Because as I said, like after Soviet Union, I thought, Yeah, it's gonna take a lot longer than that. But it didn't, so Yeah, hopefully, in 10 years, time for equality will be achieved. Yeah. Um, where do you think China might be in 10 years time? Well, I hope at least, um, same sex marriage will passed, and I think it will, because china, nowadays, [00:20:00] you know, is like, Well, um, we're catching up, and, you know, we're developing. We're going to be one of those, you know, developed countries soon, so Oh, look, you know, same sex marriage is pass in this country and the other country and the other country, we should do the same. So I say probably in 10 years time. It will be passed now. So, yeah. Um, if you could give a message, um, to a young person struggling to come out, [00:20:30] um, maybe another young person, Um, who's Chinese, or has that difficulty, Um, with their parents? Um, what would it be? Ok, um, if you're gay or Trans just come out because it's fun and free and awesome, and people still love me no matter what. So yeah, trust me. I came out to my Chinese parents, and they are sweet ass, so you'll be cool. Yeah, that's my message. What's your favourite thing about being a young, queer gender person [00:21:00] in New Zealand? Well, um, the thing I most appreciate is that I feel I feel I am being respected. Yeah, by people around me and by the society, like, Yeah, people still respect me, and that is really good.

IRN: 818
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/south_anna_b.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004320
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089614
TITLE: Anna - South
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Agender New Zealand; Aotearoa New Zealand; BDSM; Canterbury; Christchurch; Civil Union Act (2004); Louisa Wall; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Orange Is the New Black (tv); Qtopia (Christchurch); Rule Foundation; South (series); Tabby Besley; adoption; bullying; civil unions; coming out; denial; depression; dysphoria; education; family; fetishism; gender; gender dysphoria; gender identity; health; health system; hormone replacement therapy (HRT); intergenerational; internet; language; lesbian; marriage; marriage equality; media; mental health; name change; parents; partial transition; passport; pronouns; psychiatrist; relationships; representation; school; sexuality; social media; stereotypes; support; transexual; transgender; transition; transphobia; university; youth
DATE: 13 May 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Christchurch, Christchurch, Canterbury
CONTEXT: In this podcast Anna talks about identifying as a binary identified transsexual.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How would you describe your identity? Um, I'd say that I'm transsexual. Um, that B identified trends that I I have transitioned, um, and that my gender presentation varies. Do you think the way that we talk about, uh, um, sex orientation and gender has changed much over time? Dramatically. Um, hugely. So, uh, I mean, 20 years ago, [00:00:30] I would now do this publicly and get the response they have. It's people have been awesome. People have been supportive for the most part. Um, it's changed a huge amount. Yeah. When did you first become aware that your was different? Um, I first really became aware of it around age 18 or so. 18 or 19. Um, I graduated from school high school. Bunch of things in my life fell apart at once. Um, moved [00:01:00] out, and I was dealing with pretty severe depression at the time. Friend kicked my ass and and told me that I had to look into it. I had to figure out why I was so down all the time. That led to me discovering I had severe gender dysphoria. I didn't identify as a guy at all that I wanted to transition. How did you go about discovering it? It was a long, hard process. I had a lot of denial, Um, mostly by just slowly admitting to myself that my thoughts and feelings were were OK [00:01:30] and that it was fine and a lot of it by doing the research, looking things up on the Internet, seeing that there were people out there who had similar stories to mind similar feelings to mine and that they've become happier by transitioning and that that been able to accept it. Um, and it really helped finding a wider variety of people talking about different, different. Everyone's got a different story to it. And so it's just from talking to people in a different way, so to describe their transition. And I found something that fit with me in my experience, and that really helped. [00:02:00] What were the kind of ones that you related to? Um, well, people saying they're getting away from that whole seventies eighties stereotypical narrative of I knew since I was a kid and I've always been exceptionally girly in every way, and that doesn't fit me. It doesn't have it never has. And it never will. Um, and funny people talking about discovering their agenda later in life. People who had transitioned to be less fem in in their presentation who weren't who weren't always given a really you know, um, [00:02:30] just things like that. Do you find it? Um, has it been quite hard not fitting into that typical narrative that's portrayed or what it's it hasn't it would have. It would have been hard a while ago, I think. But these days it's a lot of people who who deal with that kind of stuff, have a much better idea that there is one more way to be Trans. Um, I just didn't have that idea myself for a while, and I mean, because, stereotypically, you only do see one kind of trans person portrayed in the media for the most part, [00:03:00] when it comes to stories and fictional stuff, when they start interviewing people, of course you get better. Better diversity and better representation of people's lives are actually like, But when someone thinks someone who's not Trans thinks about, I want trans person, then they want to write about it. That's always what we end up going back to. So have you been kind of repressing um, your feelings and thoughts about it for a while before you discovered it? Yes, I think so. Quite, quite strongly. Um, it's one of the things where I I told [00:03:30] myself this. Um, if you go looking for evidence of it in your childhood and things like that, you'll find it. You'll find it because you are looking. It doesn't matter if it was there or not. You You know, there's always something that you can interpret, as I had cross to feelings from a young age, so I'm kind of a bit reluctant to do that. But I'm quite certain that I was feeling this way around the beginning of puberty. I don't remember a lot from them. I'm pretty sure I've repressed most of it pretty heavily because it was not a fun time. Um, my body was changing in ways it felt [00:04:00] alien. It felt horrible and that I couldn't deal with what was high school like for you. Whereabouts. Did you grow up? Um, I grew up here in Christchurch. Um, high school was OK. Actually, it was a bit mixed. I've been bullied a lot for a primary, intermediate and high school is the first chance to get away from that, hang out with people who I like to know I want to spend time with and to I was just kind of figure myself out, I guess. Um [00:04:30] and of course, I felt it horribly. But I made Did you witness kind of much homophobia or transphobia happening there or No, but my school was very accepting. Um, there are very few people at my school who are out about their sexuality agenda. And so there wasn't a lot of reaction from my peers about it. Um, everyone pretended that was the thing no one was doing, but the administration and the staff were all awesome about it and were all, like, you know, willing to be accepting of it. Um, but it was [00:05:00] a very but I know that not all schools would have been like that. Do you think it's had a, um, being a trans person in the South Island? I wouldn't know, To be honest, I mean, I only get to grow up in one place, right? Um, there are some things that are probably a bit more difficult about it. Um, access to medical care isn't always as good as it should be. Um, you need to go see a psychiatrist at the moment and get a diagnosis of I think it's gender dysphoria now. DS M five. Used to be. [00:05:30] You get diagnosis of gender identity disorder. You need to go see a psychiatrist for this. I'm not a psychologist. My psychiatrist was very insistent on difference. Apparently means doing an MD on top of your psych degree. Um, and also, about 100 $200 an hour extra? Um, yeah, well, I had to see them privately. Um, there was only one who was seeing people publicly, and she had a reputation for kind of fucking around, I guess. Just not really getting stuff done fast on time. Um, I had a friend who was a very [00:06:00] I guess. Stereotypical case been cross dressing publicly since age 13. Um, through the age 18 or so, Took four sessions to diagnose her and only ended up giving her the diagnosis and the referral, in the end, because she barricaded herself in Psych's office and refused to just refused to leave until she got a diagnosis. By comparison, my psych did one hour and a half session for a diagnosis. So, yeah, um, there's not a lot of options people [00:06:30] can see and there's not a lot of I don't know. I could definitely do things being better there, I suppose. And I've heard that it is better some places in the North Island and that it varies depending on which way you're transitioning. Yeah, um, I've heard it's better for trans guys in some places and better for Trans Girls and others, that's all. There's no like standard of care, which is really frustrating. Yeah, or you. There is a standard of care, but it's not like everywhere sticks to [00:07:00] it. And it's not you. You'd think that it would be everywhere the DH B would be all like. OK, we need at least one site. Who can? Who's willing to take trans patients? We need at least one endocrinologist to prescribe them. We need this to be publicly available. It's got to be, you know, within four or five months or so minimum for each one, any more or sorry maximum not minimum any more than that. It's just to to get ridiculous, and I don't know if we even have that at the moment in Christchurch. [00:07:30] Um, so once you've, um, kind of figured out and learn about, um what was when you were 18? What did you do? Um, well, I was slowly working my way through the denial, admitting that I I was probably transsexual and I wanted to transition and that it would be helpful. And it would be good for me once it got to the point of admitting that this is who I was. And this was what I wanted to do. And then I wanted to start hormone therapy, and I want to do it now. And each of those is an individual step taking a couple of weeks to sort out. [00:08:00] Um, I haven't talked to my GP about it, Um, which, looking back on it was not It could have gone better than it did. He was willing to be helpful and completely and totally clueless. And it would have gotten much better if I just thrown a copy of the W and a at him And like, highlighted the relevant bits and gone. No, I know more about you than this. I've done the research. I've looked it up. Give me a freaking referral to a cycle ready? It's hard to get that. He spent a couple of months [00:08:30] fucking around doing the wrong thing. Um, but eventually, Yeah, he got me. Got me a referral. Um, when did you did you come out last? I did. I have I I'm out to most people in my life. Um, it was rough at first. Um, I was basically forced out of the closet by the guy I was petting at the time. Oh, yeah? Well, I've been trying [00:09:00] to have sex and I've been going horrifically and all kinds of dysphoria, and he knew something was up and I wasn't OK. And the thing I wasn't talking about him and he he literally just at one point when I broke down crying, he literally just like, No, I'm looking at the bottom of this. Is it in certain problem here? Is it That is it. This is it. The other thing. And when he asked me if I had gender issues after about 15 minutes of going through various things, um, I just couldn't deny it, really. And that's how I came out to him. And then he was also about, um [00:09:30] he was heavily involved in the BBC community at the time, did cross dressing as a fit, um, wanting to lend me a skirt and get me shaved and you know, things like that. And it helped a bit telling someone that secret I had and having them go. Yeah, sure. OK, whatever. Um, and that relationship didn't last, but I still owe him a lot just because he got me out of the closet and then it was easier to come up to the next person, and I was able to do it myself and then the one after that. And it keeps getting easier. [00:10:00] The more you do what I find do you find that it's something that you have to keep constantly doing a bit less these days than what I used to When I first started coming out to people, um, they had no idea. Um, and so it was. I had to tell each person, and I was always a surprise for them. Um, when I started actually transitioning and got a hormone treatment, it became a lot more obvious to my friends. Started dressing a bit differently, started asking to use a different name pronounce at that point, I was basically adding myself [00:10:30] to everyone. I met him. Now it's gone to the point where I sometimes have to out myself to people I've met because they don't realise that I have transitioned. What kind of reactions did you get from friends and family? Mostly supportive. I have awesome friends. Um, I have awesome, wonderful friends who have really been really supportive about it. Really helpful. Even when they don't understand. Family's been a little bit a little bit trickier. Um, but I think my parents accepted a long time [00:11:00] ago that I'm not going to be who they want me to be. I'm not gonna do things my own way. And I think they'd rather be included in my in my life than not so Yeah, um, and they've been kind of supportive, but also very confused. Yeah. Have you experienced much transphobia? But yeah, um I don't have not a huge amount personally, Um, but for a while, during the awkward, androgynous phase, I [00:11:30] was There's definitely a lot of people who I mean, a lot of people would look I mean, they do the whole classic double take thing of Oh, this person over there. Look away. Hang on. Wait a minute. Is that a guy or a girl? Um, some of them got vocal about it A bit rude about it, but in my face about it. Um, yeah, especially kids. L kids can be brutally, brutally mean. Not not more Children. Children tend to be like young Children. Tend to be really kind of OK, that's the thing you're [00:12:00] doing. Whatever. They don't have any ideas about it already. Once you get up to like, young teenagers, though, they're very much trying to fit in. They're trying to perform, and they're trying to figure themselves out. And they can be absolutely horrific to people who don't fit in a bunch of, um, yeah, having a bunch of 10 guys yelling at me that I'm a faggot doesn't want to pass, not experience. I want to repeat. No, but to be fair, I'm lucky that that's about as bad as it's been. Um, a couple of people on the Internet have been horrific, but I'm sure some of them were trolling. [00:12:30] Um What did you do after high school? Have you done any study? Yeah, I've tried to tertiary study twice now and it hasn't gone well over time. The first time I was trying to do a compensate degree at the same time as I figured myself out, um, had severe depression at the time. Um, obsessing over gender issues. It kind of got on the way of my study. Um, so I failed the first year of that and dropped out. Um, took a couple of breaks. Took a couple of years as a break [00:13:00] just to get my transition sorted and tried for audio engineering degree in 2012. Um, and that didn't go great. One applied for passionate scholarship on that one. It cost dragging, and that didn't go great either. So I don't really know what I'm doing now. What? Um was it like being in that kind of environment? Was there any chance I'll be there? What? People at the uni there wasn't. Not that I noticed that I would have noticed [00:13:30] at the time. Um, it means there was It was one of the first places where I wasn't out to people. I wasn't out to my classmates, and that felt good. It was good to have a part of my life where I wasn't out to people. Um, where it wasn't an issue. I was out to the teachers and the staff there. Oh, I had to be. My documentation was a bit mixed up at the time. It still is. Um, but they are mostly pretty, pretty awesome about it. Um, there was one guy who was a bit old who did not get it. Um, he [00:14:00] just was completely and totally confused. Um, I had a lot of awkward questions to ask about it, which is fine. I try and answer those in places and times when I'm out just to because, I mean, people are curious about it. It's not something I've experienced. I do try and answer that. Um, it was a bit awkward. Um tried to explain to him that I was trans and gay, and he got completely the wrong idea and assumed that I had to explain to him No, that actually I'm gay because I create a date other woman, and he just [00:14:30] that just broken me. Just took, like, 10 seconds to just stop and think about that. So sorry. People seem to think that sexuality correlated and yeah, and figuring out that they weren't correlated. Um helped me to accept my own transition because I had at the time I had a good idea about my own sexuality. Now, I'm not so sure, but yeah, um and so figuring out that, actually, yes, you could transition and be a trans lesbian. And [00:15:00] that was a thing people could do That was really awesome. And that helped me accept myself in terms of my gender. Cool. How did you, um, clarify for yourself or find out that that was a OK for to be mostly by seeing people talking about it online again, sharing their experiences and discussing them that this is what they do? This is what they did. Um, reading basic trends. One on one stuff. Step one. Gender is not sex is not sexual orientation. Yeah. [00:15:30] Um, do you think social media and the Internet is playing more of a part in the way that we, um, find information and build community connect? Definitely. Yeah. To a huge degree. Um, what's hard to find? Even a real life community these days. It's not organised on Facebook or something. Um, that isn't organised online and planned online. Um, but just going out there and seeing other people's experience. There's one thing the Internet was fantastic for. It's talking to people and realising that you're not alone. [00:16:00] Maybe only one in 5000 people has got something similar going on to what you do. Um, in real life, you'll never meet them on the Internet. You know, you can go find that group of people who have exactly the same interests feel exactly the same the same way about themselves or their lives. Um, so, yeah, was it easy to find that kind of online community? Relatively, Yeah. I never really took part much in in many communities. I mostly, um, mostly lurked mostly just read stuff, but yeah, So I'm [00:16:30] able to find a bunch of different bunch of different options, different communities. And, um, is that something that's important to you to kind of have a sense of community and belong to me personally? Not to. Not much, No, Not really. Um, it was important to me at the time that I could find other people whose experiences I could relate to, and they helped me understand myself. Nowadays it's not someone. No, I mean, it is nice to have people where I can talk to, and they get it with regard to her trans issues. [00:17:00] Um, by friends who are also transgender. Um, yeah. Have you been involved in any of the, um, support groups in Christchurch? Yeah, for a little bit. Um, I was going on forge pretty regularly for a while. Um, I'm a little bit off that they're as associate of utopia, and I'm definitely 12 utopia. Um, but I found that to be an awesome, fantastic group of people. The best thing was, they didn't even talk about trans stuff. Most of the time, they're just sitting there just chatting about whatever wonderful, [00:17:30] fantastic group of people. Um, And it was nice to just be able to bring up the way they're being trans, affecting my life. And everyone goes, Yeah, I've been there, you know? Yeah. I get that talk about their experiences of things like changing your name, for example. Cool. Um, as we went along to a gender events once or twice. Um, going along to the dropping room at the old community house was very helpful for me. Um, having someone to talk to. And I didn't really have anyone in my life. I wanted to admit it to. I was having [00:18:00] trouble even admitting it to myself, going along and talking to Christine. Was it? An old lady used to run that That was really helpful. How did you find, um, things like getting your gender changed legally or name changed? I haven't really changed my gender legally. I've looked into it. It's complicated. I'm reapplying for my passport at the moment, and they've updated the process recently in 2009. I think so. Not that long ago. Such that it's now really easy to get [00:18:30] your gender changed in your passport. But that's only on your passport, but I think that'll be enough for me for now. That'll get me legal. A photo ID that has everything. Correct. I've legally changed my name, and that was about would have been about two years ago now. 2. 5. Um, and that was mostly a fairly easy process. Yeah. What do you think about the banker and Chinese? People are represented in the media. Well, it's weird, to be honest. I mean, [00:19:00] I don't know. I don't consume a lot of traditional media anymore. Um, but they always when they're when they're reporting on trans people out out in the world, when it's when people are talking about things that have happened and the things that are real, um, they always make an issue of it. They always mention it if they find out and they always try and tie it into whatever is happening and they always it always comes up. Um, in fictional stuff. Yeah, most people don't have [00:19:30] to completely clueless about it. And only just like the last five or six years, time to figure out that, actually, maybe ha ha, that person's Trans and that good of a joke. Um, but things are getting better, um, things improving over time. People, you know, people take it more seriously. Some TV shows now are getting trans actors to play trans roles, which is you'd think there'd be no shit seriously kind of thing. But apparently it took a while for them to realise that. What are some of those? Um, [00:20:00] I don't really watch much of it myself. I most talking about things. I read about people talking about it, and I don't watch a lot of TV. Um, I heard good things about the trans character and orange is the new black few other things. Yeah, for years. Um, see, um, any characters or storylines in any kind of me? Maybe books to many movies that you can relate to? Not really. No. I don't see people like myself represented at all. Um, I mean, I do it some very niche stuff again on the Internet. [00:20:30] What do you think there needs to read more from the media? I think we need more queer people creating stuff to be honest and not just indie or self published, short Internet only stuff, but actually getting to the top levels of the traditional publishing companies and just writing their experiences, writing their friends experiences and giving these really true, honest stories. Um, they get away from the stereotypes and close to people's real lives. How do you feel about [00:21:00] the marriage equality bill that passed last year? Oh, I think overall it was a good thing. But, um, I think the civil unions, when we got in 2004 was more of a big deal. I don't think we got much out of marriage Equality Bill other than the adoption rights thing, and the use of the word marriage. To be honest, the I know civil unions are a bit of a second class thing in some places. But what we had, what we had here, what we have here still for civil unions is basically equivalent to marriage in every way. [00:21:30] Um, so I don't think it's that big a deal as people making it out to me. It doesn't really affect my life that much. Are you aware of, um, Bill going through parliament at the moment that puts, um, gender into the Human Rights Act? Um, I heard of it. Vaguely. Yeah. Also, about time for that hurricane, you know, like, why is it no, um, have you been involved or followed much in your kind of activism or politics? Not really. No. [00:22:00] Um, no, that's cool. And what do you think are some of the most important issues that are facing Queen Trans people in New Zealand at the moment, I still think access to health care is a big one. things like making sure that everyone can get to a site when they need to, and that it is publicly funded. Um, that everyone can get to an end when they need to. And it is publicly funded that both of these happen on a reasonable kind of time frame. Um, and support for surgery as well? Um, yeah. [00:22:30] Where do you think we might be in 10 years time? Hopefully a lot better on all the stuff I've been talking about. Better access to medical care more timely, more publicly funded. Um, better representation in the media. More people have an idea of what it is less having to explain trends One on one all the time, hopefully more inclusion and and the general education stuff if someone are covered. You know, being transsexual is a thing you can do, and you might not know. Um, you might [00:23:00] you might not be aware that you might not be aware that it can be good for you. It could be good for you. Um, if something like that have been included in a sexy class at school, it would be helpful. And I think she I don't know if that's feasible in 10 years, but I think it's doable. You know, in the future that we will be telling our kids that being friends is a thing you can do, and then a lot of them will have better lives because of it. Um, what, have you had? Positive reactions, or has anyone kind of challenged? You challenged [00:23:30] you for being, um, a trans woman who doesn't fit into that? Um, feminine kind of. No, not me. Personally, I've had friends who've had bad experiences with that. Um, one of the reasons I don't go along to a events at the moment is because the Facebook page has a lot of older trans women who are very much. There is exactly one way to be Trans, and they've found it. And oh, you're not perfectly binary identified. Surgery is not your [00:24:00] instant highest priority. I'm sorry you're not transsexual. I'm not respecting your gender. I'm not respecting your pronouns. I'm not respecting your name. I'll ask you without your permission. You know, horrific stuff. Um, the problem of trying to have an inclusive, inclusive group for everyone. Is there some people we just don't want to include? So do you see quite a lot of, um, conflict or differing ideas between generations? Yeah, well, yeah. And I think, um, it shows [00:24:30] most when you look at non binary identified people and gender queer issues. I think because that's a very recent thing, we understand that there is a thing you can do. People actually identify in that way the whole idea of a partial transition. Um, I think to a lot of older trans women, that just seems like blasphemy. OK, so, um, there's kind of a gap or need for people around your age. I'm not. I'm not gonna say it wouldn't help. No, but I think a bit more understanding around can do. [00:25:00] It could help. I mean, a lot of the older trans women and you very much did have to jump through hoops. And you did have to conform to that narrative. And you had to either fake being convincingly feminine or you had to lie to your psych about it. I think nowadays it's possible to be more honest with your medical providers, and that's a good thing. If you could give a message, um, to a young trans person struggling to come out or repressing it, what would you say? [00:25:30] I don't really know. To be honest, I'm not sure I have much advice for that. Um, what would have been helpful for you to hear. I think the thing I'd say is that you do do do it if it's for you. If it feels right to you, then do it. Because living authentically to yourself is entirely worth it. And a lot of people around you, they might react better than you expect. Um, yeah. And what's [00:26:00] your favourite thing about being a young 20 Children in New Zealand? I don't really know, to be honest, um, most of the things have been good about it have been that I feel good about myself and that I feel confident that, um that I'm not actually dealing with that much transphobia and the overall, it's been like, dysphoria sucks. But transition has been awesome. Uh, really, really great. Um, so I guess the results I've got from that the way [00:26:30] I look, the way I present myself, all that stuff is awesome. Boobs. Boobs are fantastic. Um, yeah, right.

IRN: 817
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/south_delilah.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004319
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089613
TITLE: Delilah - South
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Canterbury; Christchurch; Christianity; Grey's Anatomy (tv); Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Māori; Pride; Pride (Christchurch); Protect Marriage NZ; Qtopia (Christchurch); Rainbow Youth; Rule Foundation; Skins (tv); South (series); Stuff; Tabby Besley; Whangarei; activism; bullying; coming out; community; discrimination; equality; family; gay; heteronormativity; homophobia; homosexual law reform; identity; internet; language; marriage; marriage equality; media; normalisation; parents; politics; school; school prom; social media; social networking; stereotypes; suicide; takatāpui; tolerance; video; youth; youtube. com
DATE: 13 May 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Christchurch, Christchurch, Canterbury
CONTEXT: In this podcast Delilah talks about identifying as gay while being in highschool.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How would you describe your identity? Um, in terms of sexual identify as gay. Um, but other than that, identify as many things, I guess. Um, identify as Maori. Um, try to student musician. Um, yeah. I don't know. Just a lot of different things. Um, do you think the way that we talk about [00:00:30] our identity has changed much over time? Yeah, I guess it's just become way more open as education around different things. And society in general has changed. People have become more accepting of the identity or just more willing to talk about it, I suppose. Yeah. When did you first realise that you were gay? I think I was probably 11 or 12. But I think I had some ability [00:01:00] that I seemed to have lost to just, like, shove it to the back of my mind and not consider it for a few years. So, yeah, I think I probably knew when I was 12, but didn't really think about it as such properly was maybe 14. What kind of messages do you, um, remember learning about gay people when you were growing up? Um, well, I came from a really accepting like, um immediate family. So, like, my godparents are [00:01:30] gay, and all my friends are gay. So, um, it was never, um I just remember I don't think I really learned any messages. I was just supposed to know that it was normal and fine. And yeah, it just It was a just a natural thing, I suppose. But, um, yeah, I didn't You don't really learn about it. I suppose I didn't in school or anything. It was just in my environment at home. It was just fine. Just how people are. Um And so once, you kind of accepted that [00:02:00] part of yourself. What happened? Um, I guess I just I think it took a while. Like realisation and acceptance are very different. So But once I was at that point, I was just like, OK, and I was still nervous about what other people would think, but I just kind of thought it was all right now and then I was like, Ok, well, I should probably do something about it and then slowly told people, What kind of reactions [00:02:30] did you get? Um, I think my first reaction when I was, like 14 for my friend Rosie was like, um, I was quite nervous because she's really Christian, and I know not all Christian people are, like anti gay, But I was like, Oh, yeah, but no, she was completely fine. She was just, like, a love you. Whatever you are. So that was nice. Yeah. And your family, we really support of my family. Well, not all my family. No, I'm a little bit not out to my family. Um, so, [00:03:00] yeah, my parents don't know, but they totally know. They just haven't asked me, and I haven't seen nothing thing. Um, but yeah, um, I told my cousin recently, and she said I knew since you were nine, and I was like, Really? I didn't know when I was nine, but, um, yeah, we'll see with family. That hasn't quite happened yet. Um, what's kind of holding you back there? Um, I'm not really sure. I mean, I try to describe that to a lot of people because so many people just [00:03:30] are like, you know, especially in terms of your parents and stuff that they're really not going to care. In fact, they'll probably be happy for you. Um, but I think it's just more like a conversation I just don't really want to have like, and I'm totally aware and fine with the fact that it will, but I suppose until they ask or until it's like a conversation that's necessary. I just hasn't come up, so yeah. No, Um, but yes, It's nervous in general, I suppose. What's [00:04:00] it like at your, um, high school? Um, my high school is really good. I actually moved from another high school when I was, um, 14 as well. Um, which is a really big high school. And I'm sure it was fine. And maybe it was because I was younger. I didn't really know. But from what I saw, I didn't. There was not a single art person in a school of 2600 people, which I was like, Oh, about. And no one knew at the time, um, about me. But I just really wanted to [00:04:30] move to a school that was known for being like, diverse and accepting. Not only because of that, just because it seemed like a cool school, So yeah, that's where I met. And I was really good on, uh um, first day of term when we our school, when we have our like assemblies, the dean of students is like, If you're not accepting of people of different like cultures or races or anything or sexualities, then the school is probably not the place for you. Because when our purpose is to be for everybody, so that's really cool. [00:05:00] It's really cool. Have you seen any kind of homophobia there at school? Um, yeah, I have. I guess it's kind of everywhere, like, no matter what school you're in. Um, but I think it was not necessarily homophobia, but more like fear. The only time that I've seen or anything happen to me negatively on that topic was, um when I made a video for marriage equality that got on the news and stuff, which was cool and my school wouldn't [00:05:30] use it, they wouldn't use it for anything. Um, I think they were gonna put it on the school website or something. My English teacher had suggested just because it was a good video and it could have counted for my assessments or something. But, um, I got an email that had been forwarded around all of the different teachers who all said no We don't want to take a political stance, and it might offend our religious students even though it didn't say anything about religion. So that was I got really angry. I think my dad got more and more angry. He wanted to call and complain, But, um, [00:06:00] yeah, I don't think that's necessarily a homophobia. It's just kind of something in education that needs to be changed because they're kind of prioritising religious students over LGBT students, which I don't really agree with. So I think we need to make it more equal. But I've never really hit me bad, homophobic moments as of yet. So that's good, I suppose. Do they teach you anything about sexual orientation or gender and health classes or any other? Um, I don't take health, but I think from what I gather, [00:06:30] it's pretty good. Like I take legal studies and we just studied the homosexual law reform in 1980 6 68. Yeah, you probably know that. And then, um, we have you can take gender studies at school, which you can't do a lot of other school, so that's really cool. Yeah, So, um, I think it's probably pretty good in comparison to lots of other schools. Yeah. Um, are you allowed to, like, take, um, partner with the same gender? You to [00:07:00] like a school? That's fine. You can do whatever you want. Pretty much, which is awesome. I love it. It's really cool. Is it important to you to have kind of a sense of community like belonging? Yeah, it is. I think it's something that I really value. Um, everywhere, I suppose. Yeah. It's definitely important to me. How do you find that? Um, I guess just in different places, I guess you can find it anywhere if you Well, you can't [00:07:30] find it anywhere. But if you try, I suppose, um, so, yeah, I think I have lots of different communities. Um, that I'm involved in and stuff like my school definitely has a sense of community. And then yeah, I think I just looked for it to different ones. Yeah. Have you been involved in any of the clear group to events in Christchurch? Um, yeah, I. I guess I'm a part of utopia, but I'm super busy, so I can't [00:08:00] go all the time. Um, but yeah, Other than that I am in there and I've been to. I went to a few things for Pride Week, which was cool. Just the opening and, um, a discussion night with, um LGBT politicians, which is awesome, because I want to study politics. So it was really cool. Yeah, but other than that, not really, but yeah, So do you follow and engage much as kind of politics and activism around LGBT stuff? [00:08:30] Yeah, I do. Um, I think I definitely still have a lot to know. But for the most part, I'm really into that, mostly because I either get really angry or really happy about it, So yeah, definitely. Definitely. What else did you do for the marriage bill? Um, what did I do? Yeah, well, I made I just made that video, and I talked about it all the time and annoyed people talking about a lot. Um, what else did I do? I did make a submission. Yeah, I made a submission, and [00:09:00] I feel like I did some other stuff, but I can't think what I think. Just talking about it all the time to everybody and getting really feisty. How did you get your video out there? And what was in it. Um it was just a video of, like, my friends and different people in Christchurch. And I included, like, um, friends who, like, identified as LGBT and then heaps of friends who didn't because the kind of purpose of it was just to show that young people in New Zealand, no matter what they identify, is still kind of [00:09:30] the overwhelming answer was yes, we do what magical it is. So, yes, I didn't interview anyone, but I just kind of it was on the spot. I just wanted to do it. And then it ended up taking a few months, but it was cool. I just, um kind of wrote up a really basic like general of Yeah, just a few sentences saying why? And then gave different people different words. And they just recorded, um, themselves saying it and then sent it to me. And I put it all together, like with the soundtrack and stuff, and just put a few clips in. And then [00:10:00] I sent it to, um, different places. So, like Utopia has it. And then I sent it on. It was on stuff dot co dot NZ just because I asked them to put it up and they did, Which is cool. It's on YouTube, Obviously. Um, yeah. And quite a lot of people saw it. I think it because now there's lots of videos on YouTube or whatever, Um, about marriage equalities after the event. But at the time, it wasn't really anything. So I just think I called it marriage equality in New Zealand or something. And lots of people watch it. So, yeah, it was cool. It was cool. Um, how did you feel when [00:10:30] the bill passed so heavy? I was at my dad's house in Auckland, and I called my best friend in Christchurch, and we decided that we're going to get married, and we're totally not gonna get married, but, um, yeah, no, I was just really excited. I thought it was amazing. Um, I guess I suspected that it would pass, but you never know. Like politics at all. You never know. But, um, yeah, it was awesome. I loved it. I was very happy. Um, are you interested in getting married? Um, [00:11:00] I don't know. Kind of not like, not because I'm anti marriage whatsoever. Just because I guess I'm sure this could change, but for now, my opinion is just that you don't need to get married to be with someone or be committed to someone, but, um, yeah, and I think it's kind of because it's my parents has been my parents' view as well. Um, but yeah. No, Um, maybe one day, but not something [00:11:30] that I like. I, I The reason I was so pro marriage equality wasn't because I desperately want to get married. It was just equality in general. Yeah. Um what do you know? Do you know much about, um, kind of history or, um, stories? Um, about gay and transgender people in Maori culture? I don't. And I wish I knew more because I'm obviously really interested in that. Um, but yeah. No, I don't really [00:12:00] I would love to, um, I'm not very not because I don't want to be, but because my family is not very, like, connected to our Maori history. Just because of like, I don't know. When my grandpa went to school, um, he was, like, told not to associate his Maori stupid. So now our whole family's been raised in, like, a completely like westernised environment, but, um so yeah, so We're only starting to get to know our family and stuff back up at the, which is in now, but I would love to talk [00:12:30] to them about it sometimes because it's really interesting. But from what I gather, I guess that, um, opinion around the idea of LGBT Q stuff in Maori culture is probably a little bit divided because on one hand it is like a big part of Maori culture, and I don't think it's like a huge They're definitely not completely whatsoever. But then there also is the like, religious [00:13:00] side of, um, Polynesian cultures that I know, I guess, just in relation to some of my friends and stuff. It's not that they're anti whatsoever. It's just not something that they've been exposed to it all, but yeah. No, I don't Really Yeah, um, do you know about the word I do, but not really, But I do know the word. Yeah. What do you know about I can't [00:13:30] remember if it's just like queer or if it's transgender, but I feel like it's one of I think, um, it was originally the word used for, like, same sex act, um, environment. Um, and that it's expanded as a term to kind of include. Yeah, cool. Do you think that's important to have a like a word like that? Or is it something you would personally ever see [00:14:00] yourself identifying as uM, yeah, I don't know if I personally identified it as it not because there's anything wrong with it just because I don't know. But, um, yeah, I think it's cool that there's a word for it because it just kind of gives identity to Maori people who might not feel comfortable using European words to identify themselves, that in their languages you've obviously got to accommodate them in their identity in some way. So yeah, no, I think it's [00:14:30] how do you feel about the way queer and Trans people are represented in the media? Um, I feel like it's got better. I mean, or at least there's more in the media. Um, but obviously it's never going to hasn't yet been, um, perfect. It is in the sense that there's still like heaps of stereotypes which are totally pushed by the media a lot of the time around what [00:15:00] queer people are, I suppose. But, um I guess just the point that they are in the media. More is a good thing. But I don't know about the way they're represented as of yet because I don't know, all different media has a different stance. I guess so. It's kind of hard. Um, but yeah, I'm not sure. Um, do you see many, um, stories or characters that you can relate to or that reflect your identity? I [00:15:30] suppose I look for them in a not creepy way, but, um, yeah, definitely. I, I think. I just appreciate when there's a TV show and there's someone I can like relate to, I suppose, because it just makes it much more relatable to watch. Um, yeah, so I think definitely like different shows like Grey's Anatomy skins, um, different TV shows that have it doesn't even have to be LGBT characters. [00:16:00] But just to have it mentioned in a positive way or in a neutral way. Um, it's cool. I like it. Yeah. Do you see lots of, um, stereotypes of critic in the media? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Um, yeah, I do, I suppose, more and, um news and like, news, media and stuff. But in terms of TV shows, I can't really [00:16:30] comment because I don't watch heaps, but from the ones that I've seen, I really like the way that it's kind of normalised like not gonna sit here and talk about because you can keep me going. But, um, just the way that, um, the relationships or whatever are portrayed as just a normal relationship, um, and sexuality isn't super like doesn't differentiate people a lot, [00:17:00] but yeah, I do see, you do see stereotypes, of course, but yeah, I like the ones that kind of break it. Do you see, um, social media and the Internet playing more of a part in the way that we kind of find information or connect with other quarantine? Yes, totally. I mean, not that there's anything wrong with Christchurch, but it is, I suppose, just from size and because of the fact that it is, I think, in my opinion, still [00:17:30] very conservative. Um, it's awesome to be able to have social media that you so you can connect to people in different places, um, on that issue And I suppose even, just like with my Emerge Equality video as an example, I know that if I, like, ran an event or something in Christchurch, it wouldn't have got the audience. I mean, I suppose it's because it's a nationwide. It was a nationwide campaign. But yeah, I think, uh, you're able to, like, connect heaps more people if [00:18:00] it's if you use social media. But yeah, there's obviously different add negatives to social media as well. But I think in those cases it was good. What do you think are some of the negative? Um, I suppose, uh, I suppose it's just general, like social Media is just such an easy form of, um, bullying. I suppose when I was in psychology class, like an hour ago, we were talking about it. Um, how the digital age has changed everything. [00:18:30] So I suppose not even necessarily just to do with LGBT Q stuff. But just in general, not people being able to voice their opinions is, um, a lot easier, which can obviously be negative. Like, that's the only thing I've ever found and been like, Oh, my goodness. I can't believe I'm reading. This was the, um, protect marriage. New Zealand page. I just read all the comments, and I was like, No, [00:19:00] delete this. But then I suppose you can't just because I suppose if we get our say, they should get theirs. But what, um, what was that page about? I was just I suppose that, um, opposition to the marriage equality campaign. That was just about protecting marriage, like as an institution, as it already is between men and women. But the campaign or the opposition, I suppose that they were running was pretty much just harassment [00:19:30] and being rude and writing as many, like derogatory comments as you possibly could. So, Yeah, but I think that's what the page is for, I assume. Yeah. Do you think it's harder? Um, being queen in the South? Yeah, I do. Um, I'm not sure, because I've kind of I've always lived between Christchurch and Auckland because my dad's in Auckland. Um, and he I'm not really sure why, but he has a huge [00:20:00] gay friend group. I suppose when you get in the community, you're in it, but, um, yeah, so he has two of his really good friends that run the help run all the like pride stuff and all that jazz. So I guess like, you just see a lot more of it up there. Here It's still it's OK, but it's still a little bit more like of a taboo subject than in Auckland. I think there's just more. And like when you go on the Rainbow Youth page, obviously, and heaps of cool events that I'd love to go to in different [00:20:30] things and you just meet people and, um, talk about stuff. A lot of them are in Auckland because Christchurch maybe it's just the population size, but yeah, I do think the South Island is just quite a lot more like conservative, and it's the way that it's rural or more rural. I suppose it's just not, um, is liberal, I guess. Yeah, what do you think are some of the, um, most important issues that are facing queer and trans people in New Zealand at the moment? I don't [00:21:00] know. I think things that I, um, interest us as I'm sure there's plenty more. But just like the education system and how lacking it is, suppose that's for younger people. But yeah, definitely. In primary school, we learned nothing at all, was never mentioned. Um, even in at my old high school, um, I think people like obviously my school [00:21:30] does but people seeing sexuality is something that, um often discriminated against. Like people often talk about religion or race or whatever, but often don't bring up sexuality because maybe they think it's too personal or something. I'm not sure, but, um, I think that's definitely something that people don't recognise. Discrimination against LGBT Q people is discrimination. A lot of the time, it was just a joke or whatever. Um and then obviously, because I was just at a United Nations [00:22:00] conference in Auckland, where we were writing, um, policies about change that young people want to make. And we, my group, one of my groups topics was youth suicide rates. And obviously, the LGBT youth suicide rates are still, like shockingly high. So I suppose that's definitely an issue in itself, a not nice issue at all. So I suppose there's just all issues that minority groups face kind of apply. Yeah. [00:22:30] Um, as you're interested in politics, what do you think? Um, our politicians could be doing for some of those issues. Um, I suppose just maybe even just making other politicians or even the public aware of those issues because a lot of them are things you wouldn't think about unless you did identify as LGBT Q or you knew someone who did. So Maybe. I mean, I know a lot of the politicians would just be too, like, conservatively minded to even [00:23:00] think about it, but I think there'd be quite a few of them who probably just wouldn't. The idea of teaching anything about sexuality that's not like Heteronormative in schools probably wouldn't even have crossed their mind. So just awareness in terms of politicians knowing. And then hopefully, if more of them knew, they'd be like, OK, that's a valid issue. We could change it. Um, I suppose there are plenty of things they could do, just always aiming for [00:23:30] to make things more equal, I suppose, and maybe looking at it on a outside of New Zealand scale as well, because there's so horrific stuff that happens overseas. I mean, there's horrific stuff that happens in New Zealand as well, but, um, yeah, I'm not really sure, but I'm sure there's a lot they could do. If I knew more about the actual, like parliament legislation, I could probably look at it and be like that needs to change. That needs to change [00:24:00] but, um yeah, I suppose just doing everything they can to strengthen the LGBT Q rights in New Zealand, especially for young people. That's it. Um, where do you think we might be in 10 years Time? 10 years time? Well, if I was being super positive as I should be, Um, [00:24:30] I suppose I don't know if I'm talking like legally, but just like for me, I would appreciate heaps if I don't know how to explain it. Like, I think a lot of the time now, Um, gay people or queer people in general I, I, like accepted, but more on the side of tolerated than, um, embraced, [00:25:00] I suppose, if that makes sense, So, like, I'd like to see in 10 years, just a society that's more, Um, I don't know really how to explain it, but yeah, like a society that's more embracing of LGBT people and where it's not an issue like it's just not a problem. Um, and people don't question it or anything. And nothing's, um, uncomfortable around the topic. It's just like, out there and open. And then more people [00:25:30] would want to change it or help it. Um, if you could give a message to a young person struggling with their sexuality at high school. What would it be? Um, I feel you, Um, probably just that there's nothing wrong with them and that, um I think not necessarily with age, but just with exposure to different places and people they'd find. Or they will find [00:26:00] other people who are like them or, um, accepting of them, even if they're not now. And it's not dangerous world. Essentially. And what's your favourite thing about being a person in New Zealand? Um, I suppose it's just another community like, um, just like how I'm proud to be Maori or proud to [00:26:30] be any other thing they identify as, um, just having a sense of community and belonging is super cool. And then when there are events or like discussions that come up with different people, um, you can be a part of it and like, have your opinion heard and everything, I think I just think it's cool to be able to be part of. I mean, obviously, being part of a minority group isn't always good, but when you're part of it and you can [00:27:00] help, like, make change around it, I suppose it's a good thing.

IRN: 816
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/south_angela.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004318
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089612
TITLE: Angela - South
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Canterbury; Christchurch; Conchita Wurst; Eurovision Song Contest; Gay Star News; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Queer As Cat (youtube); Queer Nation; Roastbusters; Rule Foundation; South (series); Tabby Besley; The L Word (tv); UniQ (Canterbury); activism; bullying; clothing; coming out; creativity; discrimination; diversity; equality; facebook. com; family; friends; gaynz. com; gender; gender identity; genderqueer; heterosexual; homophobic bullying; internet; marriage; marriage equality; media; mental health; mental illness; monogamy; morality; pansexual; polyamory; queer straight alliance (QSA); rape; relationships; representation; safe sex; school; school uniform; sexual health; sexuality; social media; social networking; sport; stereotypes; support; transgender; transphobia; university; video; youth; youtube. com
DATE: 13 May 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Christchurch, Christchurch, Canterbury
CONTEXT: In this podcast Angela talks about identifying as genderqueer, pansexual poly.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How do you describe your identity? Gender Queer, Pansexual, poly. What do those words mean to you? Like, um, Pansexual is like means I'm really open to anyone of any gender that I don't really discriminate on base or gender. So I could be with a transsexual. I could be with a gender queer person. I could be with this person, whatever. [00:00:30] Um, gender queer. Oh, and to me, it means my gender fluctuates. It's not really the same each day. It changes from being either feeling a bit more boyish or a bit more girlish one day and or somewhere in between. And probably means that I and open [00:01:00] to have more than one relationship at a time, an intimate relationship. When did you first become aware of that very identities? Um, I became aware of my and my well, kind of my attraction to girls. Um, when I was about 18 and [00:01:30] my gender queer identity is a little bit more recent. It's probably 20 two. It's just a rough guess. Um, and probably probably 23. What was it like when you, um, first realised that you were attracted to other girls? 00, um, [00:02:00] and it. Yeah, it was awkward. It's just like, um, I was at the time I was in a, um, in a heterosexual relationship, and I was like, Oh, I'm attracted to girls, too. Oh, I can't I can't be with you. I want to be with a girl and I can't because I'm really in a relationship and it's just like, Oh, and so I had to pretend the guy was a girl. That's not good. Um, [00:02:30] what happened after that? Um, I'm still in the same relationship. So he's kind of accepting of that reality and that I do have the attraction to the opposite sex, and he's fine with it, so it's still good. Did you have, like, a coming out? Um, I'm I'm I'm I've got really nice friends who are really open and like [00:03:00] understanding, So I'm out to them. But I'm not really out to my family. I kind of I don't actively hide it like so my Facebook is filled with me. Same become putting flirt, flirt, flirt comments on girls, Facebook comments, pictures and stuff. And we like trying out drag queen kind of attire drag [00:03:30] king attire. So there's some clues for them. Did you grow up in Christchurch? Yes. What was it like at your high school? How were people treated for their sexual orientation or different? Well, the thing is, in high school, I was really just I really was not aware of my sexuality or my gender identity at the time, So [00:04:00] I don't really know what it was like to be Oh, well, oh, at our school, it was kind of right to be like for the girls to dress up in the boys uniform, so that was pretty good. And just so more practical. Who wants to bike around in a kilt? Um and so like. And it was all right for the girls to participate in sports [00:04:30] and stuff, but there was still some I think a lot of schools just set out, set out side port and sat on the benches and talked, which was boring. And so, um, but I don't think in sexuality education that I experienced that there really was much mention of other orientations other than heterosexual. Do you remember any kind of, um, [00:05:00] messages when you were younger? Um, about what it meant to be OK, Um what kind of ideas like when you were first realising, Did you have about it? It wasn't really talked, talked, talked about in my environment, either in a negative or positive way. So it was just something like I had no kind of pinpoint or information about. It was just like [00:05:30] I am this I kind of have to find out, though my own information and some of the stuff isn't pleasant, especially when you get into, like, Queer Discrimination and, um, transphobia and all that kind of stuff. It's a kind of sad reality for some. Have you experienced much discrimination personally because of your sexual orientation or gender? Um, I. I wouldn't say [00:06:00] discrimination, but I have to explain some things to people when they're very like gendered, and so they don't really understand what it is to not have your, um, your body in line to do in terms of gender. And so they're kind of like it's a foreign kind of concept for them, and they they find it really hard to relate to. So there's the difficulty to relate. I get a lot, but, um, that otherwise I don't really feel [00:06:30] discriminated against personally, but I know there's discrimination out there, so I'm a little bit closed off and who I'm out to, so I wouldn't be so I'm not as open about my sexuality or gender as I would like. When did you first realise that you were talking to or what kind of process thought process did you go through? How did you learn that? That was the thing you could be, Um, just like how I kind of [00:07:00] liked boyish things and I felt more identifiable with male things. And, I mean, I just kind of But I didn't want to reject my femininity, So I still wanted that to be there. So it wasn't, like, transgender where I was like, I just want to be the opposite gender, but I just There's a mixture of them in together. What? Um, apart from not understanding, what other kinds of reactions [00:07:30] do you get from people like, How's your partner? When you talked about it, he's pretty accepting. He tries to understand, and he lets me explain things and he listens, and he kind of respects me for who I am and doesn't want, doesn't try and change me and doesn't try and make make me fit into this prescribed mould of whatever I should be. So it's pretty good. [00:08:00] Um, And have you had relationships with women since you came? Um, not a lot said like, honestly, that makes me sad. Do you think it's hard to find other people who are interested in non monogamous relationships? Yeah, I think it is hard. It's like it's another thing you have to explain. And it's like you have to explain the rules and how it works and because people aren't really familiar [00:08:30] with it. And it's also it's kind of hard to get connected into the You get to mingle with gay people because you have to find it, and it can be kind of. I find it a little bit hard when I'm not very much of a social person in like bars and parties and stuff. I don't It's not my strong point. [00:09:00] Do you find that you, um if your primary relationship is um, with the assessment, do you often get Do people assume that you're heterosexual and suspended because of the relationship you're in? I probably don't come across of as CIS gender a lot of the time, but because the way I dress like I will normally dress kind of a little [00:09:30] bit masculine some days, and so they tomboyish. And so they they. But they would probably assume that I'm heterosexual best by looking at my partner and stuff. But I normally use gender like I. I heard him as my partner a lot of the time, So you can't really say go by that. Whether I'm in a hetero relationship [00:10:00] when people do assume that you're straight, how does that feel? Yes, it feels like a lie. It feels like a lie because I'm not. And I heard I want to be recognised as the orientation that I personally feel that I am even though that I'm not out. I just like it's a not oxymoron, isn't it? [00:10:30] Mhm. Do you see many kind of stereotypes about being sexual and kind of more like bisexual people? Um, or that people try and who do know that you're sexual? Do they ever challenge that or be like, you know or greedy any of those kind of stereotype? Yeah, like I get a lot of stereotypes about being polo like it's immoral. It's greedy. [00:11:00] Those are the two main ones I feel I get in terms of, say, um, pansexual, we'll probably get the greedy one again. And also undecided, I think. And I think there's not enough kind of gender queerness in the media or betraying the meaning for people to pick up and stereotype, so they just have no information [00:11:30] about it. So you just have to explain. And so you get your you get to explain it in a way that you like and free of those stereotypes. How do you respond to people who kind of stereotype you in that way? So far, it's just been my friends. So it's been pretty easy to create a dialogue and challenge their discourse. Um, so you can actually say to them, Oh, hang on, That's not how it really is. It's something [00:12:00] else, and you can actually sit there, and it's not too hard to explain to them. So what have you been doing since you left school getting over a mental illness that's never fun and time consuming? So that was kind of really hard, and then I then I went into into uni, so I've been doing uni for the last three years. What are you studying? [00:12:30] Um, psychology, sociology, health, science and human services. A mouthful. What kind of, um are you out at uni? Um, I go to, um, uni, which is universities from Canterbury Queer Group. But I haven't been much to their events. She'll probably check out that page. [00:13:00] Um, is it important to you to have, like, a sense of community and belonging? Yes, because it means, like, you can You know who you can date? Um, if you if there's no community, it's kind of like you're left out in this world, and you have to go. Hang on. Are you, um I like you. Are you and you have to go and ask people [00:13:30] whether they're gay, and then you have yourself You have to come out to them as being gay, and it's like, Oh, kind of a lot easier to have a space where you can know that everyone's not necessarily not there. There's a good chance that these people here are going to be non heterosexual. Um, have you experienced any kind of, um, discrimination at university was obviously No, I'm pretty supportive [00:14:00] effectively. Do you see? Um, things like Facebook and social media and YouTube and the Internet playing more of a part in the way that we, um, queer trans young people connect with others and find information. And, um, the thing like, I, um I love watching YouTube and the good thing about YouTube, it's anyone anyone can make content. So there are queer people making content, and I do like to follow some of these peer queer people [00:14:30] on, um, YouTube, like queer is a cat, which she's a gender queer, asexuals, um, girlfriend, boyfriend and everything in between, um which is a lesbian and talks about pansexual lesbian issues. And and then there is, [00:15:00] uh oh, there's a few other ones as well. I can't remember the names of those. Have you been involved in, um, making your own? Yeah, I do. And I like to focus on, like, I did a video on the two videos on the roast busters, one about the peer group that they were in. And then what was actually wrong with the bus and and And what was wrong with the behaviour of the road busters? [00:15:30] And then I wrote I probably talk a little about that. The, uh, the bus was a group of um, boys who slept with drunk and often underage girls and then posted the exploits on social media site called Facebook. So what was doing those videos about, um, [00:16:00] I was about putting, like putting New Zealand issues out there on the Internet and how, like sexuality has played her out out in New Zealand and also creating processing what I thought about the roast busters and critiquing them and having a look at. Maybe they like how the peer groups kind of kind of OK, [00:16:30] it and kind of said, Oh, we don't have. They're just being boys and they're not really just kind of made excuses for them, not really challenging with their behaviour and kind of reinforcing that behaviour and saying, Um, yeah, by not challenging it. What other kinds of videos at the minute? Um, another one. I just did a, um um called sexy milkshake, which is, um, a poem about, uh, [00:17:00] safe sex. But using, um, the milkshake is the metaphor. Six. That's cool. Um, and what do you What do you get out of? And what do you kind of hope to spread through? Making YouTube videos? Um, what do you get from watching other clubs. Um, um, what I get from watching other people's videos is that there are people are, like, out out there, like me making videos. [00:17:30] And so I feel like there's that that that content is kind of catered to me because these are the people who have experienced some of the things to me and I understand in the situation, and I identify in a different on in a no no way. How do you feel about the way the more mainstream kind of media and pop culture, um, portray queer and trans people? It's It's [00:18:00] a bit hard for me to say, because I'm I'm kind of connected and quite well into, like the Queer Media. And so I kind of do a lot of like unsubscribed to, um Quin gay star and queen and and all these other um, gay NZ and all these other, um, queer news sites. So [00:18:30] I get a lot of media from the queer community. And so it had. So I'm like, But you see that and lots of those would be like international. Yeah, so I kind of make an effort to be connected into queer information. Why is that important to you? Um, because it, um it tackles issues that affect me. And it gets me to understand [00:19:00] what's going on in my community and how, um, the issues that I might experience if I come out, come out as whatever. I come out as gender, queer or pansexual, and so it just kind of it's a way to kind of engage how people react. But when you get a lot of American stuff, you're like, Oh, scared as hell. Um, do [00:19:30] you see your any of your identities reflected, um, in any movies or TV shows like Have there been any characters or storylines that you can relate to? There was the R word, which was a while ago, which was about a group of lesbians, which was cool. Um, that's the only one I can think of, which is sad. Um, do you see any gender queer [00:20:00] people at all in the media? There was the euro. This year's Eurovision winner was a drag queen. So that's one example, isn't it? Depends how you look at that, I guess. Do you think, um, lots of stereotypes of anchor and trans people in the media? Yes, Stereotypes [00:20:30] are easy to reproduce and easy for people to relate to because they create this kind of idea of what a queer person is and some assumptions about them so you can go, OK, this is a queer person. They're gonna be like this, this and this and then OK, then you don't have to explain all those things to them in detail because they already have these assumptions about them. What would you like to see? More from the media and pop culture [00:21:00] diversity, the race orientation, gender. They had able bodied, disabled bodied. How do you feel about the marriage equality bill that passed last year? Yay! Yeah. Um, I think it's an important step forward because it's, uh, legitimising these relationships, saying yes, you [00:21:30] can be married. Yes, You recognise that you're having a long term relationship and a stable one at that, that you recognise that your relationship is recognised as, um, something important to you, something that you invest in and also like with, like if you break up or somebody dies, there's some legal stuff around her, whether [00:22:00] or not whether the stuff goes to, um, how the stuff is divided up and all that kind of stuff. Were you involved at all in making a submission or celebrating it? Watching the things? Um, no. What do you think? As someone who's polyamorous, what do you think about people who also want legal rights, marriage rights for polyamorous people and those relationships? Yeah, [00:22:30] I think before we even do that, it needs to be more talked about in the public eye and more more recognises this the way you can also have relationships. And that's OK. It's not. I don't even think it's talked enough in the public for for that step to be even thought of. Yet it's got some other steps it needs to take before that. Currently, what do you think are some of the most important, important [00:23:00] issues that are facing, um, care and twenties in New Zealand at the moment? Mental health, bullying and discrimination? What do you think are some of the solutions to those issues? Um oh, having queer Alliance, um, Queer Alliance Straight and Queer Alliance in schools where you have a group [00:23:30] which kind of straight people and gay and queer people can go to and they can to stick up for the rights of feather, um, queer and then do kind of queer things. And so it's not assumed that when you're sticking up for gay rights or queer rights that you are queer yourself that you can you can be straight and still stick up for, [00:24:00] um, Queer rights. Um, I think health workers in schools like like mental health people like, um, like more health promotion and in schools and also encouraging those things to be in the community as well. So it's not just relying on the skis to kind of fix their Children. [00:24:30] It's like OK, like having like a mental health after school programme, where you learn how to cope and stuff where they're doing, like workshops and stuff. So and so it's not relying just on the school to tackle it. Just take a more broader community or approach to it. Where do you think we might be in 10 years time? Oh, um, [00:25:00] based discrimination or acceptance. We may be a little bit more open and less scary coming out as queer. What are the your personal kind of hopes for your future? Um, that I can just that I can be me without any worries. and I don't have to worry about people discriminating against me, attacking me [00:25:30] or insulting me for what I am. Um, if you could give a message to a gay person struggling to come out as queer or gender queer, what would it be? Get people find people who accept you to begin with, like, kind of, like just kind of talk about these the issues of laon and queer and see how people respond. [00:26:00] If they are kind of on your side, you can say, OK, I'm this way And would you support me and be there for me and stuff and kind of help me through this process and just finding good friends you can trust to start off with and then slowly coming out to more and more people? And then, if some people, then you got people to fall back on the coming [00:26:30] out process, coming out to someone who's a bit AWOL and not pleasant? What's your favourite thing about being, um, a sexual deque poly person in New Zealand? Mhm. I like being gender queer because I can. I can wear any clothes I want, and I was just like I can shop in any section, probably the kids section, and [00:27:00] I can wear what I want. Um, I like being because I get to know all these different varieties of people and that they don't be slick of who they are because of the gender. I get to know them because I want to get to know that person and kind of in the end, I like being because I just like giving love and caring for people and having people close to me.

IRN: 815
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/south_stacey.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004317
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089611
TITLE: Stacey - South
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Canterbury; Christchurch; Forge (Christchurch); It Gets Better; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); MtF; Qtopia (Christchurch); Rule Foundation; Shortbus (film); South (series); Tabby Besley; bullying; coming out; employment; equality; facebook. com; family; gay; gender; gender fluid; gender identity; homophobia; homophobic bullying; internet; isolation; marriage equality; media; parents; peer support; school; school counselor; social media; social networking; stereotypes; support; transgender; youth
DATE: 12 May 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Christchurch, Christchurch, Canterbury
CONTEXT: In this podcast Stacey talks about identifying as gender fluid.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How would you describe your identity at the moment, I'll probably say more gender fluid. But until recently, I didn't write as transgender. It's work in progress. Um, do you think the language that we use to talk about our identities has changed much over time? Oh, yes. It's definitely a lot of new definitions of words or terms that I use. When did you, um, [00:00:30] first realised that your gender was different? Probably. When I was started primary school, it was more in the way that the girls played together as opposed to the boys played together. I was. I was a little more interested in what they did, rather than getting bloody and dirty. So probably from about the age of seven, I noticed that I wasn't like most boys. And then what happened was that after I didn't really do anything about it, I sort [00:01:00] of put it to the back of my mind. And then one day I got introduced with the first, uh, male to female transgender person I met. Um, sort of from that moment was when I knew that I want him to make a change, to make the outside feel like the inside. How old were you when you, um what kind of situation she met here in, Um, I met her at a at a queer youth group. Um, it was introduced by [00:01:30] friends, and Yeah, it was from that moment, Like that night, I sort of had a breakdown and fire, and I was like, I think that's something I want to do. Did you get many messages about, um, What it meant to be when you were growing up was like, education and health class? Nothing. Nothing at all. I didn't even really know it was a thing until I became a part of the GB community. But even then it was still just sort of little bits, or [00:02:00] there was never anything that near any education or anything that helped you. So did you first become part of the community? As as, uh, yes. No. I came out as gay when I was 12. And then from there I found a queer youth group at my school. And ever since then, they've been helping me learn to love myself. What kind of reactions did you get when you first came out? Um, [00:02:30] some were positive of that was predominantly from the girls, which, looking back on it, I'm not 100% sure why, but yeah, definitely. At school, it was hard, and all the boys sort of avoided you or peed on you for it, but my family was quite accepting of it. Um, so my dad a better time to come around, but overall, it was a mostly positive experience. Did you, um, experience [00:03:00] much kind of homophobia or 2012 year at school? Yes. Lots. Um, every day, as far as I can tell, um, name calling, throwing things the usual. Was there any kind of support from the school Be this guy. That was what my form teacher told me one day. But you found out about utopia through school. [00:03:30] Oh, yes. Through my school counsellor. Um, I think they had a poster there, and that's how I heard about it. But I made contact with some of the facilitators and sort of shyly attended group sat in the back for the first few months. And no, there's some really nice people there and good to get along with. Um So what was it like? Um, going from people thinking that you were gay to think coming out as Trans. It's definitely [00:04:00] a big challenge for them. Or for me, too. Um, will your family support? Yes. Yes. Um, my mom was very supportive. She said that she had an idea when I was younger, and I was like, Ok, thanks for the heads up. Um, but my dad was quite against me, doing it at a young age. She wanted me to build a life first and be secure and [00:04:30] not He didn't want me to ruin my life, which I haven't, but in his eyes, it would have because of the way other people would have seen me. Um, apart from that, um, some of my friends were ok with her. The others weren't so much. I sort of didn't believe that's what I wanted. So don't really talk to them anymore. But it was probably a bit easier than coming out as gay. I don't know why, but do you think [00:05:00] it's because he'd already probably Yeah, because I had already come out once. And then because of that, the queer community helped me grow so much. Whereas beforehand I didn't have that support network there. Has it been important? Um to you to be involved in the community and kind of have a sense of community and belonging. Yes, definitely. It's helped her through many hard times, and [00:05:30] I learned quite a lot from others. Do you see, um, social media and the Internet being, um, more of a part in the way lots of young people find their community connect and get information? Yes. No, definitely. Um, master of world land. Or most of the Chinese people I've talked to have been via Facebook or online groups. Where there? Um, yeah, If it weren't for social media, [00:06:00] I don't think I would be out. Just It's good to be able to connect and share information and stories. And why do you think that's all happening on social media? Because sometimes sometimes it's easier to talking in person, and other times it's distance. So I talk to people in other parts of the world. But honestly, I think it's more it's just easier to try and organise [00:06:30] people together on social media than it is to try and sort of talk to them individually and go right. I'm going to be here at this time. Um, so you said that recently, you've been thinking maybe you were, um, gender fluid. Do you want to talk about what that means to you and how you came to think about that? Well, it was more to do with how I see myself. Um, I've still got a lot to learn, but I've learned a lot more than when [00:07:00] I first came out as transgender. Um, it was more to do with the fact that my issues weren't with the body I was born, and it was to do in the way I was treated because of it, or how what society expected of me. So there was more a social role of female I thought I fitted in more with than the physical body. That's why I've I feel I felt more on a gender fluid as it's not terribly necessary for me to transition. But at the same time, that [00:07:30] would be nice. So the more I'm comfortable in between, What does gender fluid mean to you? Or how would you describe that to people who don't really know anything? Um oh, I. I have one here. To me, it's sort of a state of being com enough with yourself to [00:08:00] not need to define your gender as one or the other. It's sort of a I don't know. It's like a middle junior. Or just be comfortable to act or wear what you like And taking the tributes from both male and female. How they perceived, um, how did you learn about, like, gender fluid? Or did you know when you first came out as Trans? Did you know that that was kind [00:08:30] of an option or identity that was out there? Uh, no, I didn't actually, I had no idea about it until I think it was last year. Sometime, um, in one of the trans groups I'm in on Facebook. They posted, like, a link to definition of what's the difference? Identifications. So, no, it wasn't until recently that I was actually told about the other terminology and [00:09:00] that there's more there. What have you done since you left high school? I've been trying to figure out my place in life, Um, working while I figure out what I want to do. Really working. Where have you been working? Um, caffs building sites. Where else? Bakeries, car yards. Just all sorts. Yeah. Have you been out in any of your work place? [00:09:30] Yes. No, I've been out on all of them, apart from the one I'm at currently. Um, that was more to do with they. They know my dad and they knew me as a child, so I was sort of a bit harder rather than coming as a fresh face. It's like, Oh, I that's that person. But why is your name different? And so yeah, I've been out at my past jobs, and it it's been a little awkward at first as the workers got used to it. But after a while, they can't fool around me, and there hasn't been an issue. Have you had any [00:10:00] transphobia in the work place? No, actually, in the work place I haven't. Which is quite surprising. What was it like working on the building site? Dirty? It wasn't an issue. What were you doing? Um, at the start, I was sort of going in before the building stuff like little plastic and stuff. And then I got to mo the walls, put the concrete, do the plaster and painting, build a house. [00:10:30] But it wasn't an issue with any of those. No, it wasn't. Actually, they they still treat him like one of the guys, but this come to be expected on. So how do you feel about the way queer and Trans people are represented in the media and some of them on a positive light? If it's generally if it's been written or done by a career trans person, it's in a positive light because you know, when people see themselves in a positive light, Um, [00:11:00] but there's bound to be a lot of negative media. I can't feel anything examples at the moment, though. Have there been any characters or storylines that you've been able to kind of relate to or see your identity reflected in? Is it short bus or it was a movie? Um, foreign movie. Oh, sorry, I don't I don't know if it was foreign story. It wasn't spoken English. Um, it was about a tomboy. They moved to a new town [00:11:30] and it was a girl and started dressing up as a boy and playing with the boys and stuff. Oh, as a movie, I don't know if I can remember what it's called, but yeah, it was a It was about a girl who moved to Newtown and Fred, a boy. So she seemed to be a boy snuck in, and they found out in the end. But yeah, I felt quite easy to relate with that, because some of what I did at primary school, I sort of tried to disguise themselves, not disguise myself as school, [00:12:00] but sort of put in put in. Yeah. How do you feel about the marital quality bill that passed last year? Long time coming. Uh, it's Yeah. I watched. I watched all the readings of the bill up late at night on TV and I went out with friends and celebrate the last one. We watched that we read [00:12:30] and accepted. Um, I'm glad it's finally passed. It's It shouldn't have been an issue in the first place. It's What do you think of some of the issues? Other issues facing quarantine? Um, young people in New Zealand at the moment, The one for me that I can think of is mainly be playing skills. Where do you think we might be in 10 years time? Maybe we'll have to say right to [00:13:00] everyone else getting there. Still a few things to go, but we'll be just like everyone else. we'll be all just like everyone else. We'll be treated just like everyone else. And you won't have to come out anymore. It will just be You won't get to chose necessarily. But it won't be coming out. It'll just be Oh, ok. You like boys instead of girls you like instead of boys? It won't be a big deal. Are you still involved with, um, catch up here or any of the transcript? Uh, yes. I'm involved [00:13:30] with op. I help facilitate it on a weekly basis. And for Trans Youth Group, it's currently, uh I think it's currently on hiatus, So we're doing some rebranding and trying to get in some more information before we start up again. But, yes, I'm still involved. Helping or trying to help run them. And do you see them? What kind of do you see? Those groups, um, do include including Chinese people. [00:14:00] The main thing I see is helps the young people, the young people realise that they're not alone or they're not the only one going through this. Also the same time, it's good to inform them about everything. But the main thing for them is having friends meeting other queer people and going, Hey, I'm not alone because most of them are at different schools and they don't see each other outside of Utopia. So they feel quite [00:14:30] couldn't feel quite isolated at school, especially if there's not many other gay people they know of. What does it mean to you? To be volunteering with that group means quite a bit to me, because when I was younger, the heads of helped me quite a bit to come to terms with accepting who I am and knowing that it's OK to be gay. So it means quite a lot to me [00:15:00] to hope that I'm helping some of the young movers to be able to accept themselves and not feel ashamed. Have you had any, um, train models? I actually haven't. I don't I can't think of any role models in general. It's not good. That's right. Um, if you could give a kind of message to, um, young person is struggling to [00:15:30] come out as a chain, so to me it gets better. Maybe, how at the moment, or maybe it's not. Maybe you're still just starting to question yourself, but it gets better one day. Things will change, you'll be somewhere different. You'll be someone different. Don't stress out about it too much, Miss. What messages do you, um, remember getting when you were [00:16:00] growing up about, um, growing trans people that they were that they were creepy old men that met people in toilets. That was most of the messages I got about. Where did you get those from older kids at school? Um, big brothers of older friends? No. Who would have talked about that? Yeah, it was just sort of the school yard gossip. [00:16:30] What's the kind of have you been part of much of the kind of nightlife scene in Christchurch for the community? No. I feel like it's a safe place to go out in. I'm hoping, Yes, but I honestly wouldn't have any idea on I'm early to bed. So I don't see that side of thing. And what's your favourite thing about being a part of a care intense community in New Zealand [00:17:00] that you feel welcome and accepted? So you got freedom of yourself when you're around your peers because half the time busy pretending to be someone else or trying to please others, but with your queer family, you can just be yourself.

IRN: 814
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/south_sara.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004316
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089610
TITLE: Sara - South
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Adelaide; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Canterbury; Christchurch; Georgina Beyer; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Rule Foundation; Serbia; South (series); Tabby Besley; anxiety; camp; civil unions; coming out; community; counselling; depression; documentary; drag; facebook. com; family; gender; gender identity; gender reassignment surgery; health; health system; hope; insurance; internet; marriage equality; media; mental health; non-binary; school; sexuality; social media; social networking; stereotypes; support; transgender; transition; tumblr. com; wikipedia. org; youth
DATE: 12 May 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Christchurch, Christchurch, Canterbury
CONTEXT: In this podcast Sara talks about being confused about gender identity.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How do you describe your identity? Um, I will describe identity as female, but currently, uh, very confused about everything else. Everything with, like, gender. And I would say Can't Yeah, I would say I confused about my Children. See, I can, [00:00:30] I guess, would say so. And health as of the past few months. So when did you first start to realise that you were, um there was different. I first I saw he noticed that when? Um when I went on a study exchange [00:01:00] programme to about three years ago and his first realise it was different when I, um yeah, when I first portrayed myself as sim on on this online chat programme, I wasn't aware of it at the time, But during the three or four [00:01:30] months, and I started feeling more comfortable being portraying myself as a few more online is being a guy offline. And I guess ever since end of July, just yeah, I just started noting it more and more. Um, what do you think made you, um, [00:02:00] first appear as a woman online? Well, I didn't really have much. I was always really rather quite shy, and I've never had I was I was never really easy for me to talk to, other to other girls. And I just guess I just thought that maybe if I was a film, then it would be a lot easier to talk to other girls. [00:02:30] Was that something you'd ever, um, kind of thought about, um, when you were younger or before that at any point? Was it Did you know that it was an option to be, um, trend or non binary? I never really knew about I. Apart from like when you were in 2020 I put a documentary about Trans people, but back then, even before 2011, I was confused by it. I I understood, [00:03:00] like how difficult it must have been for the person and for the parents and such. But I was just, like was the real show. I meant, um What what's it been like? Kind of coming up, um, as an adult, because you will be hearing a lot of kind of narratives that, like, um, people figure out that they were transgender when they were like a child and started wearing dresses or or, um, things like that. And that's often kind of seems to be the narrative [00:03:30] that's portrayed in the media. So what's it like? Not yeah, a different story. I haven't really received negative opinions from people as such myself. It's always seems like, Oh, I was worried that it would happen but I guess the feels were because I guess, as you said, like the society like, Well, I wouldn't say they expect, But it's definitely stereotypical that most [00:04:00] Trans people only found out when they were a child. And I've basically was around about 20. Yeah, 20 years old when I first found out. Have you met many, um, other Trans people who have had a similar to your, um, up until 2012? I never really. That means [00:04:30] a lot of friendship. I might have been one transform of the chats programme. I used to frequent a lot, but I think that was before that was after being in a weights. But, um yeah, when I first came out, when I like in September 2012, I joined up two local groups in Christchurch and from then on, always heads. [00:05:00] We friends, we friends a few trans people and and yeah, I can definitely say majority of them have become have become my friends. Um, was it important, or has it been important to you to, um, have, like, a sense of community and belonging? Um, yeah. I felt better having people, especially people I can talk to in person rather than online, [00:05:30] but everything. And it's like giving me advice and like, and support as well. Um, do you think social media and the Internet play, um, a big part in the way that lots of queer intensive people connect with each other and find information and build their communities nowadays? I would say so. Especially with [00:06:00] Facebook and Tumblr, because have met. Well, I haven't really met, but I have made friends off of Tambo. I know that they have always been like, I know that there's a strong trans community online there, despite having some few setbacks every now and then. Do you remember, um, [00:06:30] any messages about queer dreams to people and that you learned when you were kind of growing up about what it meant to be there? Or did you learn anything in like health classes at school? They really never from being an intermediate and high school. They never really told us about being translated, even sexual. I mean sexual. He is. But like, um, I guess sexual orientation. They've never really talked about [00:07:00] much. And as I mentioned those documentaries from 2020 about Trans Children, But I guess only until Wikipedia or a few years after Wikipedia first started I've never really I. I was intrigued by the stories, and I as I mentioned, I felt a bit weird after, but I've only [00:07:30] I don't know, 2009, 2010, 2008. I really just started, like, read articles in Wikipedia about being talked about transfer to the people, but I never really I never really gave much thought. Um, have you come out to your family? Um, I've come out to my sister and my parents, and so far [00:08:00] a has been more supportive. But I've got bunch of grandparents in my home country and my grandma who was here, but I haven't come out to them yet, and I think they're the ones I'm more. I'm more worried about the reactions in my parents. Why, more than that, because they're really quite traditional, and, um, by [00:08:30] home countries is. Well, I won't say it's massively central against LGBT people, but it is definitely negative history with all that. And I really don't know where my grandparents sense on that, I guess. Yeah. Where are you from? Um, I'm originally from Serbia. When did you come to New Zealand? With my [00:09:00] family In about 1995. And did you grow up in Christchurch? Um, yeah, I grew up in Christchurch. Do you think it's harder being, um, change in the South Island? I wouldn't really know, to be honest. Um, but you think it would be better to hear them back in your home country? Um, yeah, definitely. Um, what kind of rights do queer and Trans people have [00:09:30] there? Um, all I know is that gay, gay marriage or marriage of the same sex people is illegal. Um, sex between same sex people isn't or I haven't really checked online in a while. All I really know is that there's, like, [00:10:00] a surgery medical centre in the careful city where they do, um, treatments for where they do the bike GRS surgeries and such. But I think that's about how do you feel about the American colony? passing in New Zealand. It's a good thing I don't understand why it wasn't passed until earlier, but [00:10:30] I make people happier being able to like actually got proper origin, not just a civil union. Do you think, Um, it's been important for the trans community? I guess for us there's more important things because, yeah, what do you think are some of the most important issues that are? Um, I think we're in trans communities in New Zealand. At the biggest thing [00:11:00] is just that, like, health insurance companies want to, like, cover any of our like treatments or surgeries and such I I know that all surgeries and treatments are in place, but I remember when I called my family's health insurance provider. They said that they don't cover anything. Um, have you had a hard time trying to access healthcare myself? Not really. I [00:11:30] just basically just had help from my GP ever since I started from like when I first realised that all this was going on and had the side ways with the endocrinologist and the psychiatrist to go see apart from that, it was all fine. Um and you said that over the last few months, You've been kind of really confused about, um, gender. Do you want to talk about that? Um, I just I've always [00:12:00] had, I would say, both exciting depression, although there are on points up since 2011. Oh, I wouldn't say it was both. I think it was more anxiety, but I've always had very bad anxiety since finishing high school, and it flared up like it has basically been, like, [00:12:30] acted within me since I know beginning of near the beginning of last year. But it hasn't been recently, isn't it's been worse since, I guess because I've I remember when I focused more on my, like, trying to figure out my gender identity. But recently it's just all been. It's always been about my anxiety and just I guess, just because of that, I just felt like that [00:13:00] on say, I'm not sure anymore, but I was just like I just been feeling again like I can't call. I can't call myself Trans because I've not done much in the sense of transition, and I have not done very much anything else to help like make me feel better about that. Do you feel like there's quite a lot of, [00:13:30] um, like pressure or like kind of portrait that there's like a right way to be Trans and to transition. I have lost it from some other people, but I haven't Oh, I guess, any real pressure. I've had the reason why I want to start as soon as possible because I know that on my dad's side there is no path and important and he got around 26 or something, and I just really we were trying [00:14:00] to beat that and not let it happen to me as well. I think there's it seems like there's often, um yeah, often people say that, you know, just like one way to be Trans. In fact, it's like, you know, it's completely like a personal journey and it's up to you like what things you want to do and at what pace you wanna do it and stuff. But do you? Is that, um do you find other people wouldn't understand that or don't kind of [00:14:30] so most White Trans would understand that. I guess I really think is just being feeling, uh, I would say just I guess like, um show or something because I've always felt like biggest part is just like looking a lot more. I wouldn't say a trick that was like, I guess, just for creating what I how I work now. And [00:15:00] that's what most of my friends on Facebook have been seeing for me, I think, last year. But they always said, Oh, you know, there's so one way to be Trans and you don't have to be But I know gorgeously or whatever to be Trans and just like they've never called me out for being shower. But just I've always mentioned that myself. [00:15:30] Do you think the, um, anxiety kind of issues that you're talking about? Um, do you think that's related to your, um, gender? I think that me thinking about my agenda has come about because of my anxiety. I think I have had one friend tell me that she got anxiety because of her gender stuff. But I know in my case that my anxiety has always been around here before. Any kind of [00:16:00] like confusion about gender mhm. These are like other things that are kind of getting in the way or like challenges you're facing to help you kind of like along your journey. I'll just say so for my anxiety because it's has been really affecting me. And I'm finding it difficult to see the point in studying currently because it's [00:16:30] like, Yeah, I've been told that if, like if you study enough or say hard enough or you focus enough on your anxiety or try and go away. But for the past two weeks, I have not felt that even working hard on my projects and such. I still feel my anxiety. I was like, It's like overtaking everything and just I've not felt need to drop out of school. [00:17:00] But I felt like sometimes, like, I would just rather take like, the week off or something. But saying that I've had you see how my school, that schedule I recently did have a week off. But even then my anxiety was affecting me, and I would not say that I haven't had an effective enough break from everything. Are you getting for that? Um, I [00:17:30] assume I psychologists Oh, it used to be like a month in between the retirement seeker, but now it's like every three weeks or so. Oh, very good. Sometimes I have like morning classes, and it just it's not easy to try to like, like, arrange everything. So it kind of they pretty much cause a like, long times in between [00:18:00] appointments. What? And unfortunately, I can't. My school doesn't have free counselling services, so I can't see someone like once a week or something. What are you studying? Um, I'm studying graphics design. And what kind of hopes do you have for your future? [00:18:30] I'm not really sure at this stage. I know that transition is a big thing, but as I've mentioned anxiety, I don't know if that when that can restart, and even though I am sure I will be able to get a diploma in my course in about August or September, I really don't think I'll be actually be able to get a job after I finish. [00:19:00] Why do you think that? And I've I've always felt like nothing ever could, like happens to me like III. I don't have bad luck, but I have the good like and I just II. I would say getting a job is like something good happening to me, but like somehow it was just like like it's just not going [00:19:30] to happen. Um, do you feel like that way like is kind of your anxiety and being part of your fear of not getting a job? Or is it because there aren't many jobs out there or it's quite hard to? I would say it's more because of anxiety and anything else. I. I realise that being Trans and trying to find jobs is all I realised I was. Being Trans makes for find jobs. But since the whole [00:20:00] transition thing isn't going to happen off isn't going to happen. Um, so I guess isn't like my main concern is just trying to like trying to just re my anxiety as much as possible before I try for finishing off. Um DNA. And how do you feel about the way queer and Trans people are represented in the media? I [00:20:30] would say it's a bit stereotypical now. We were focusing on either really young or Trans have known since young transitions, young or like which although like I guess like I, I wouldn't say like a bear. But like all the trans people as well [00:21:00] and like how you, like, just focus on stereotypes, fight LGBT people, and it's just like, what are some of the stereotypes that you see? It was like overly camp people, and I guess, well, that's wouldn't say it's a really a serious type like [00:21:30] Dr Queen Swell. And I guess it's like the recent thing. Like how, uh, American actor with of Hits portrayed himself as a Trans woman in this movie. That was, I think, really early this year or last year as well. What do you think [00:22:00] about that? I don't think that he should have chosen that role. I, I did read a few months after. Like how he, the director, said that the character was supposed to be a drag queen, but for some reason the change a trans woman. But I remember reading about the huge backlash that had, especially with the Yeah, Trans comedian Tom, You know, it's like arguments [00:22:30] from from one side the other. Like I it was it was a pretty big mess. Do you think that, um, role should have gone to a Chinese woman? Yeah. Yeah. What else would you like to see? More of on the media? It is like to not expect that every Trans person is heterosexual, because [00:23:00] I would say there's one bias in the trans community, but actually it's like even though, even though the same thing being heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual. But yet somehow the media she was like, Oh, yes, if you're if you're a trans woman, then you but only rather go for guys rather than girls because as a guy you were into girls. But now, because you're a woman now you have to be into guys and something. That's [00:23:30] a big, big stereotype, and it's a people from as well seem to like, Yeah, just get confused about the difference between, like how sexual orientation and gender. Two different things. Um, if you could give a, um, kind of hopeful message to a, um, young trans person coming out in their twenties, what would it [00:24:00] be? Um, I guess I would say Don't give up hope. Yes, you have come out question in what usually what? People usually think that trans people can't come come out. But that doesn't mean that you won't have. You won't have the same amount of success as they would. [00:24:30] Um, I, I guess. Just like I was supposed to say Don't give up hope just because you're all there in.

IRN: 813
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ATL REF: OHDL-004315
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089609
TITLE: Hamish - South
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Akaroa; Aotearoa New Zealand; CPIT (Christchurch); Canterbury; Christchurch; GBF (film); HIV / AIDS; Love Your Condom (LYC); Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Martin Luther King Jr; Modern Family (tv); New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Qtopia (Christchurch); Rule Foundation; STI; South (series); Tabby Besley; bear; bullying; cis male; classism; coming out; community; drag; education; effeminate; employment; equality; exclusion; facebook. com; family; friends; gay; gay best friend (GBF); goach (gay coach); homophobia; homophobic bullying; labels; language; lesbian; marriage equality; media; otter; parents; prodigay; pronouns; regrets; relationships; role model; safe sex; safety; school; sexual health; social boundaries; social media; social networking; stereotypes; transphobia; twink; violence; youth
DATE: 12 May 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Christchurch, Christchurch, Canterbury
CONTEXT: In this podcast Hamish talks about identifying as gay and living in Christchurch.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How would you describe your identity? Fully Gay. And, um, apart from that do you think the language that we use to talk about sexual orientation has changed much over the last 20 years? From what I've read, it has definitely changed over the years. But that's mostly due to, of course, the acceptance that we have for the now cities and stuff. Um, when did you first become aware that you were gay? Roughly [00:00:30] around the age of 15? What was that like? How did you figure that out? Extremely confusing, Uh, but eventually figured it out mainly, uh, due to high school locker rooms. Can you remember any kind of like messages you got from society about what it meant to be gay when you were growing up? Um, well, during high school, I wasn't out at all. But judging by my peers and friends, et cetera, [00:01:00] how they acted towards the out members of our school Very, very negative. What kind of things did you see? A lot of bullying, name calling, exclusion, etcetera. Um, so that that definitely turned me off. Um, coming out in high school. I waited till after college. In fact, Yeah. Why do you think it took you so well? Definitely dealing [00:01:30] with people around me, just having that confidence in myself to overcome what people would would or conceivably say to me. Yeah, Um, were people kind of assuming things or like judging you being homophobic towards you before you came out? Um, no, I was completely a good me. Did you, like, do anything to kind of Oh, I tried hinting. I tried hinting, but no one seemed to get the message that it wasn't until I actually said it to a lot of my [00:02:00] friends that they had any idea. And then they were just thinking, Wow, that makes so much sense. It was like signs and all that jazz. What kind of reactions did you get when you did come out? I lost a lot of friends. Um, mainly my primary friend group were all very anti change. So they didn't like the fact that I was one person one day and another person another when in reality, I was always the same person. Are you up to your family? Yes. How did they? Um my sisters didn't care. They were sort of very, very cool [00:02:30] about it. They love me for it. Um, my parents pretty much the same story. My mother, however, did have an interesting reaction where she sort of treated me like I had an illness for several months afterwards and like, it was something to be cured. And then there's my brother who is not on speaking terms with myself anymore. Of course. What kind of things is he? Well, uh, the day I came out to him, he [00:03:00] decided the appropriate reaction was to assault me outside a nightclub in Christchurch, which was lovely. You can imagine sitting in a bar with a bleeding face, police, or, like anyone stick that really terrible. Have you experienced, um, much other kind of homophobia, like on the street or, um, in bars? I've definitely experienced a bit of, um, homophobia, but never never physical. Um, [00:03:30] it's it wasn't really homophobia. Like, I think you're disgusting. It's more of I think you're checking me out. Sort of, um, vibe. And it's mainly, um, straight males that find us straight. Females. They're lovely. They can treat us interestingly. Um, do you find it correct? Like, is it Is it scary? Is it? Do you feel safe going out at night and stuff if you observe much other kind of homophobia [00:04:00] or 10 phobia to people in Christchurch. Definitely transphobia. Um, mainly it's people not quite understanding what's going on, using different pro, using the wrong pronouns, and, um, saying they're just playing dress up and stuff like that, but mainly homophobia. When it comes to people around Christchurch, I tend to avoid the ones that would quite obviously, um, present a problem. Like, for instance, um, the car junkies of that area [00:04:30] for those who are in the future. We call them Bogans for future reference. Uh, they they're quite stereotypically aggressive, and it's it's very ideal to avoid bringing up the subject to these people. Um, did you grow up in Christchurch? I was born in a but was raised in Christchurch. Do you think it's harder being all trains in the South Island? Well, I wouldn't know the North Island, but I have. I have travelled there once or twice, [00:05:00] and it definitely seems like our community there is a much larger thing than it is down here in Christchurch. Um, when you're at high school, do you get any kind of education about sexual orientation or gender, your health classes or anything like that with the school support of people being bullied or anything. Well, the main memory of, um, this health education that they have, um, regarding towards sexuality, we did an exercise, um, theory, exercise where, um, each person would [00:05:30] book the class as a whole, would treat it as if we were in a universe where strength was the, um, the parents anomaly. And, um, that being gay was completely normal. That was that was the bog standard thing that you could be That was thought exercise. And it was quite interesting to see how people reacted when they were approached by this. You know, some of the insults that they tried to think of were quite funny. Did people kind of get into it? Yeah. After a while, [00:06:00] it was apprehensive. The people were very apprehensive to get into it, but, um, after a wee while they were quite comfortable dealing with it was like a helpful kind of exercise. Definitely. Um, unfortunately, they did wait till we were in our final year of high school to do this, which was lovely. So the vibe only changed to a very, very small portion of our high school as the final year in our high school was definitely the smallest. Um And so what did you go on to do after high school? Well, I went to CPO T and [00:06:30] studied engineering, which I, uh, passed last year. And now I'm in the workforce. Um, did you experience much kind of homophobia? There were you out and, um, CPO T. Uh, definitely minimal homophobia. I wasn't out to my classmates because I believed it would propose a problem, mainly with many of them being from different cultures. I wouldn't quite know how they would respond to it, so I avoided the topic. Um, And what's your job? I'm [00:07:00] a designer. I design chocolate boxes to be printed and manufactured. Um, and are you out at work? Yes. How's that? Um, I'm sort of treated as the token. What's that like? Ah, um, the humour regarding it is quite interesting. It's not quite offensive, but it is. You'd see the way that they act towards another workmate. And then the jokes that they'd prefer towards you would be of a complete different variety and worse, as if they'd spent several minutes thinking [00:07:30] about it. 63. Um, have you been involved? Been involved with any of the kind of queer events or community groups in Christchurch. Um, I belong to a queer youth group called Utopia, and I frequent that place quite often. Um, is it important for you to have kind of a sense of community? And definitely, judging by the strides that we've made in the in the past decade alone, I felt almost obliged to [00:08:00] take part in at least some events, Feeling like I'd been taking a lot of them for granted. Do you see, um, Facebook and other kind of social media sites, um, playing more of a part in the way that we meet other queer people and connect with them? Regrettably. So what do you mean by that? Well, um, in my experience, I've encountered quite a lot of people on Facebook, mainly where they've actually been actively hunting queer people mainly [00:08:30] for sexual purposes. And you can be contacted by some quite mischievous characters. Why do you think it is that people are kind of resorting to that? Because it's easy. It's quite hard roaming bars, thinking which one is he? Um, so if you wanted to, or if you have in the past wanted to, like, meet somebody for a relationship, What would you do? No, I just stick to my normal routine of travelling through [00:09:00] social events and nightclubs and very nightlife places. And eventually you meet someone you don't. It's a little bit almost sour trying to contact them through an app or social media because you you definitely puts a damper on the relationship immediately into it. And you're thinking the entire time. Wow. I met you on this app, and I was using this app for this great story here. How [00:09:30] do you feel about the equality Bill that passed last year? Excellent. I remember the day it happened. I had a big party. Did you write a submission? No. Did you write a submission on the film? And is it something that you want to do personally? I. I would definitely consider marrying my partner in the near future. Um, have you followed or been involved much in any other kind of political activism around queer stuff in New Zealand? Um, not specifically queer [00:10:00] stuff, def. Definitely. Utopia. And a lot of other, Um, for instance, the AIDS Foundation. I've been, um, around, but, uh, not not specifically politically focused. No more of a social concept. What do you think about the way you super represented in the media? I believe that we're stereotyped to some degree. Um, music and other pop culture has definitely put a little bit [00:10:30] of a handicap on us. Um, not negatively, but negatively in the same manner. For instance, um, the GB F gay best friend For those in the future, you don't quite get that one. it's quite common, for if I meet some random lady in a bar for her once she finds out to immediately say, Oh, we should be best friends and go shopping and all that jazz and the entire time it it almost [00:11:00] like you're treated like an accessory To some people, it's it's quite heartbreaking being treated like that. Do you think people, um, treat you and other gay men that way? Because because of how their men are portrayed in the media. Definitely. Um, like, for instance, most TV shows and stuff they, the gay character in that is definitely quite effeminate. Um, which not all gay people in this world are as you can quite tell, um, and they're also treated like, oh, they love [00:11:30] fashion. They know fashion and all that jazz. But I, I don't know. Think about fashion. Um, do you identify with any kind of subculture in the gay community or do you think many people you want to do with them? Um, there's definitely a lot of classism going on where people try to fit each other into a class like a twink bear otter, et cetera. Um, what do those words mean? Um, a twink and [00:12:00] which is actually quite a very bad word to call someone, you know, you don't call them to their face. It's very annoying. Um, it's about a very feminine, smallest sized male who's, you know, clean skin. Fabulous sort. A bear would be a larger male, generally with quite a lot of weight on them, who is very hairy. And an otter is, of course, somewhere in the middle. Um, do you see any, like pressure to be put into those categories or people [00:12:30] try and put you into one? Definitely. When I was entering the community, it was, um, knowing all these things that were there. I almost thought that I was obliged to find my way into a little bit of the niche, just so I had that as a basis rather than just being myself as I travelled throughout, Um, has there been any characters or storylines and movies or TV and books that you, um, have been able to relate to or have your identity reflected in? Well, I watched a movie, [00:13:00] Um, several months ago, it was called, um GB F, as I mentioned before. Um, now, this movie wasn't quite what you would think immediately, but it was. It was more about how people are being treated like accessories and the characters and were actually very well written, and you could very relate to them. But they they were rather stereotypical. In the end of the day, what would you like to see more of in the in You? A variety in homosexual? Definitely. It's quite boring seeing [00:13:30] the same one over and over again. Um, have there been any kind of musicians or books or anything like that within the community that have been meaningful to you? Not specifically. No. Have you had any? Um Well, I, I would just like to call him my go. Actually, um, in the future, there's a gay coach. Now, it's quite common in the gay community to adopt an older gay male to who already knows [00:14:00] a lot of the tricks of the trade, as it were to, um, teach him. And mine would be Daniel, who I was friends with for many years before he moved up north. How did you meet him? Or get adopted? Um, I believe we met in a bar somewhere. He He was, uh, roughly about 35 at the time. And naturally, I didn't really want to sleep with the 35 year old, but it was It was quite good knowing him, [00:14:30] especially with that expertise being there. What kind of things did he teach you? Um, how to be safe? Definitely. Um, both through, um, S TT protection and, um, physical protection, I how to avoid getting into conflict and other such I've never heard of a go. Oh, well, well, when When you have a go, you are the protege. Yeah. It's definitely a play on words of the term protege, but [00:15:00] so that's quite common. It's quite common in my experience. Yes. Not everyone uses that uses that terminology, but it is definitely quite common. If someone wanted to, um, get a go to how would they go about doing it carefully? It's a lot of bad apples out there that, like younger guys, and you can definitely fall into a few traps of that. But as a whole, it's definitely a nice thing to have. If you do manage to find that person, however, they are quite rare. Um, what advice [00:15:30] would you give to other, um, young gay people about staying safe? Pick your battles? Definitely. Um, but just look at someone, and it's horrible to say, but stereotype them and just try and focus on what that group would be against. So, for instance, if you saw a guy in a hoodie and baggy jeans a shaved head, you don't really want to go and talk to them about your boyfriend, [00:16:00] OK? Do you have any, um, queer friends? Uh, definitely a lot. But most of them were obtained through the community, and and, uh, yeah, they're not not my main friend group, but def. Definitely a lot of boy friends. Do you think the, um, queer community gets kind of divided up into kind of like gay, like at least like queer women. Yes, yes, definitely. Um, we have a social drink [00:16:30] well used to. I believe it's ended here in Christchurch. And, um, there is one that I attended last, and there's definitely one main group that goes to one bar, and that's all the game in. And there's another group, um, from the same community. They it's the lesbians who go to a different bar. And I believe this was some description of argument between the two main people who organised it, and they ended up going to two different places. What do you think about that? Definitely perpetuates a little [00:17:00] bit of a conflict between gay men and lesbians. Like, I remember seeing in a TV show called, um, Modern family. You've seen it, uh, where? Um, one of the characters is explaining the relationship between a lesbian and a gay man where a gay man would have in common with a male that they're both male and with a straight female that they like males. However, with A with a lesbian, they didn't quite have that connection. I believe [00:17:30] this to be false, because as long as you're nice to each other. It doesn't matter what you're into it. You can find common ground on anything. Um, So you wanna get married? What are your other hopes for your future? Definitely earning more money. Um, I'd like to live in a world that that's definitely very on. Doesn't really care that gays exist, mainly because [00:18:00] they would be equal on all grounds that it was almost as important as having a different colour here. It'd be lovely to live in a place like that, but alas, we don't Where do you think we might be in 10 years time? Um, your question, I reckon the, um judging by the way that things are going now, definitely a lot more acceptance, because over the last 20 years, at least, we've changed so dramatically much. It wasn't that long ago in America [00:18:30] that being homosexual was actually illegal. And this could be, you know, most fired on the spot, which, actually, still in America, you can still be fired on the spot for being gay, which is a bit shit. Really. What else do you know about kind of, um, rights or history of, um, growing trans people in New Zealand or international. I remember the great I remember a story about the great AIDS epidemic in America, specifically [00:19:00] all the people just dying in the streets. And, of course, riots and protests very almost parallel with the, um, black rights movement of Martin Luther King. It's very, very parallel with that. But almost a couple of decades later, what do you think are some of the most important issues that are facing growing in New Zealand at the moment? Education definitely towards, um, young [00:19:30] people. Um, for instance, in high school, I wasn't quite educated about much in the ways and going into it, not knowing that you can find yourself in a lot of sticky situations, Um, you could find yourself not using the proper protection. So in high school we were educated that to prevent pregnancy, you use protection now in a relationship where it's inconceivable to get pregnant. You're instantly a serum. Well, I don't need protection, which is completely false, and I would love to see that being educated more widely [00:20:00] than protection in that manner is definitely a thing. And also, um, social boundaries need to be sort of educated in high schools as well because they do teach boundaries between a male and female. But with a male and male or female and female, they are very different. What do you mean by that? Well, sexual activities do come into it like the, um, frequency [00:20:30] of them is definitely greater in a male on male relationship and most likely a female or male female and female relationship. I don't quite know that. Surprisingly, um, and the way that they act towards each other. For instance, me and my boyfriend tickle fight all the time and find it hilarious. Whereas our our straight friends look on in horror as they just see two of their friends wrestling to the death. Um, apart from your goat, where have you, um, got kind of messages about, [00:21:00] um, safe sex and boundaries and things like that? Um, definitely. In the youth groups, they they teach a lot about, um, boundaries and safe sex. And you see a lot of it in advertising around the place. For instance, the LYC love your condom for those in the future, um, advertise quite heavily in our city and often give out free condoms, et cetera, to the people then posters everywhere that you You've got to use them, you know, stay safe. [00:21:30] Unless you're absolutely 100% sure that they're clean, Use one. Um, if you could give a message to the, um, gay boy in high school who's struggling to come out hearing all the constant homophobia, kind of like you were, Um, what would you say? Have a look around. It's definitely all through with the people that you're around. If you look hard enough, you can find people within your own little community high school [00:22:00] where it is completely acceptable. I myself didn't find that in mind, mainly because I wasn't looking. But you can definitely find these little groups, and it's once you're there, it's completely safe to be. And you're protected by your friends. So you can then take that as a basis and come out to your family eventually. What do you think? Um, you would have needed back when you were at school to be able to feel safe about coming out, seeing as I wasn't [00:22:30] quite sure on these things as and even when I knew I was I didn't know. I was as, um you feel emotions and you don't quite know what they are until many years down the track. And I reckon if there was someone there to tell me what some of these feelings meant, or at least give me some idea, like a role model or an education, it would have definitely sped up the process. Um, do you, like, have any kind of regret that you weren't able [00:23:00] to be kind of out of who you were earlier? Or you just think you did what was, you know, right for you or, um, I definitely regret that I didn't come out earlier, mainly because I didn't have a stage where it was completely acceptable to be celibate and, you know, just there learning about yourself rather than having to run around all the time. Um, I definitely regret a lot of things from high school. Um, some of the art members [00:23:30] I witnessed being bullied, and I didn't stick up for them because I didn't really want to be outed in that manner. And it definitely perpetuated their the grating life. And I regret that immensely that I wasn't there to help them. So I try to stick around these days and help as much as I can, um, to finish off. What's your favourite thing about being a young gay person in the new in New Zealand? In the South? You can get away with it a lot [00:24:00] like like you could literally do whatever you want. And no one even questions it like I was hanging out with some friends and I was just like, I want to do drag, Let's go do drag. And they were just like, Oh, Hamish, we don't even we don't even care. Just just do it. No, no one even questions it. Whereas, um, if a straight guy was to do these things, you'd definitely have a lot of questions thrown it.

IRN: 812
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/south_skye.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004314
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089608
TITLE: Skye - South
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Aydian Dowling; Canterbury; Christchurch; Conchita Wurst; Degrassi (tv); Human Rights Act (1993); It Gets Better; Point 5cc; Qtopia (Christchurch); Queer the Night (Wellington); Rule Foundation; School's Out (Wellington); South (series); Tabby Besley; The Queer Avengers (Wellington); Wellington; activism; coming out; community; employment; equality; facebook. com; family; gender neutral bathrooms; health; health system; hormone replacement therapy (HRT); internet; marriage equality; media; pronouns; school; support; transgender; transmasculine; transphobia; tumblr. com; youth; youtube. com
DATE: 12 May 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Christchurch, Christchurch, Canterbury
CONTEXT: In this podcast Skye talks about identifying as transmasculine and living in Christchurch.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How do you describe your identity? Uh, trans masculine. Do you think the words that we've used to talk about our identity has changed much over time? Yes. Um, like, for there's a, I would say, close to 100 other terms that can kind of cover be covered by a gender queer. Um, but if you look back and kind of a history, there's kind of nothing other than maybe a but, yeah, the list kind of grows each time I'm online. [00:00:30] What do you think it's going to be like in the future? I would hate to think, but hopefully we won't need to use labels. Um, So how did you figure out that you were trans Mexican? Um, I transferred to an all girls school and ended up meeting someone in the year above me who was beginning their transition. And we sat down and talked, and I kind of made a a few things click in my head and I went home and researched [00:01:00] and thought, Yeah, it's me. Cool. Where abouts did you grow up? I grew up in Wellington. What was it, um, like being realising you were trans at an all girls school um, somewhat awkward. But luckily, I came out at the end of year 12, and I got to wear Muffy for year 13. So I remember wearing a skirt. Um, all my mates are fine with it. Most of the teachers were cool with it. Didn't bother me too much. Did you experience much [00:01:30] friends? Um, from some of the year nine and 10. That didn't I guess. Didn't know me as such. Just saw me walking around at school and then kind of gave me hard times on the train home. Um, do you remember learning much about what I need to be, um, clear of a diverse sexual orientation or gender in, like, school or health classes or anything? Uh, no, it was pretty much nothing. Um, [00:02:00] that being said, I didn't really get taught much like health at all. Um, the first school I went to Well, the first college I went to it was health was pretty much just the fitness side of it. They didn't do anything else. Um, So did you come back to your family at the same kind of time? Uh, about five or six months later, Once I kind of got used to it and kind of worked out how I was going to tell them. [00:02:30] I ended up telling Mum in the letter before I went away for a week, so I'd kind of like when I saw them After I came back, I'm like, Did they read it? Did they read it and then kind of didn't mention it at all. So I'm like, Well, the envelope's been opened, so I'm assuming someone's read it. Um, how did that go? Um, like, they ignored it for a very long time until stuff happened at school and the counsellor wanted to talk to my mom and [00:03:00] it was brought up. And my mom, As soon as it got brought up, my mom just changed the topic. Um, didn't want to have a bar of it. And they still don't four years later. So they they don't accept your kind of No, no. I go home. It's all female pronouns and first name. Um, how does that make you feel? Uh, it's my parents kind of accepted that they're not really going to ever change so little baby steps. Hopefully, [00:03:30] um, did you have much kind of support when you were figuring out that you were Trans and starting to transition. Yeah, most of my mates at school, like they were supportive. Um, some of them didn't really know what it entailed. So kind of went home and watched YouTube videos and found more information than I did. Um, And then, yeah, schools out in Wellington was a big help. What school is that? Um, a queer youth group that meets after school and basically [00:04:00] just hang out and chat and talk. What's it been like? Um, moving to the Christchurch. I didn't really know very many people. Um, when I moved down, like I literally knew, Like, I think four people in Christchurch. Um, but once I got involved in Utopia, which is the Christchurch School Youth group, um, I met a few [00:04:30] more people, and then, yeah, I kind of stuck to myself. Now that I'm now studying, and now I'm working. What's your study In work. I studied carpentry, and I now work making aluminium windows and doors. Do you experience much kind of homophobia or Trans? Or obviously, um, this morning they were actually reading the paper about the Eurovision winner. And, uh, that [00:05:00] was it just kind of sat there quietly in the corner, ignoring ignoring all the comments that they were saying, Um what? And who was the Eurovision winner? Um, a drag queen or the bearded drag queen? Um, and they were having massive discussions about why you would even want to do that. So I kind of just sat there and pretended not to hear them. Um, are you out? Only one of my workmates know, um and that's from [00:05:30] being on my Facebook page that I completely forgot that I added to, But yeah, um, he's gay himself. So he was like, Yeah, whatever. Don't really care. So do you try and keep those parts of your life separate? Uh, yeah, Most of the people I work with are in their like, thirties and forties. So, uh, it's not really people I would associate with outside of work. Would you like to be open about it if you felt like safe to do that? Or are you quite happy? [00:06:00] Um, I run a transgender development trust or a charity. So, um, I don't mind being out. It's just in situations where it matters. If it's safe or not, for me to be out. What's your charity? Um, at the moment, it's basically, um just Canterbury based, um, we only been kind of a charity for about six months now, and, uh, we're studying [00:06:30] another trans youth group in Christchurch, and we have some kind of projects trying to get information out into schools. What inspired that? Um, kind of my own time at school. And then I was involved with unlimited writing a policy for transgender students when they move into the new building. But whether that gets built, um, and kind of the changes that they can are able to make [00:07:00] having a whole new building being built, like single ST toilets. That's really awesome. Do you think it's sort of been, um, trains on the South Island? Uh, it's not as accepted. I know kind of. The further south you get, you kind of end up being kind of forced into a closet. Um, from what I've discovered in the two years I've been here, there's not a lot of support. Unlike Wellington and Auckland, where it's kind [00:07:30] of left, right and centre everywhere you look, there's some sort of support going on. Is it important to you to have support or a sense of community and belonging for yourself. Uh, if kind of not having contact with my family, I kind of need to build my own sort of family with. So, Yeah, the support is kind of an important thing. How do you find that? Um, at the moment, Mostly online. Um, and a lot of the guys aren't really [00:08:00] in Christchurch. Um, yeah. Yeah. Still support What kind of online network are for Trans guys in New Zealand? Uh, several different Facebook groups. Um, and there's an email list, which is kind of outdated. Uh, but yeah, mostly Facebook groups. Do you see a lot of, um, young people in New Zealand connect connecting more and finding that community more online nowadays? Um, not so much in the, [00:08:30] um, male trans community. Um, it seems to be a lot of the younger guys are kind of shying away from connecting with everyone else. Um, it's more of the kind of, like 30 40 year olds, which is a little bit weird. Um, as far as dynamics go, and every now and then there's like a 16 year old that pops on for a couple of weeks and he's like, No, sorry, not the place for me. So it's not much for the specifically youth community. [00:09:00] Why do you think different? That's why lots of trans shying away from it is that other reason. I think there's just a bigger support on, like things like Tumblr and just kind of YouTube videos and just kind of if they need help, they'll kind of talk to someone, but not in a group situation. Looking at those more international kind of video channels when no one really knows them, it's just the face. It could be a lot safer. [00:09:30] How do you feel about the way current trans people are represented in the media? Um, it's getting better slowly. Um, if you look back 10 years, it was pretty much nothing apart from maybe the odd gay couple, um, or even just a gay person who's every now and then you kind of hear them talk about their partner or whatever. Um, but it's definitely become a lot more common, Um, and there's a lot of teenage kind of shows that have trans characters. [00:10:00] Um, the portrayal is getting a little bit better. Um, but yeah, it's kind of a starting point, and hopefully it will keep growing. What are some of those shows? Degrassi. Yeah, um, although they managed to kill the only trans character, Do you see a lot of stereotypes or the same kind of storylines playing out? Yeah. They're going to battle to get hormones and family acceptance. And then when they finally [00:10:30] are allowed for Mo, something terrible happens. Mm. How do you What do you think they could do better or like, how would you like to see Trans people Port trained? Um, the big thing I noticed is definitely trans women. It's kind of just being played by male characters. Um, and I'm sure there's a lot of other trans women that would happily act. Um, those positions, but yeah. So have you seen [00:11:00] your, um, kind of identity related? Reflected at all? Um, kind of. Adam and Degrassi kind of went through some of the similar things I did, um, when I was at school, except not quite. I didn't get bullied as badly as Adam did. Um, but definitely the family side of things. Did you have, um, other issues at school, like bathrooms and things like that? Um, once I came out, I was allowed to use the one [00:11:30] male toilet on school grounds. Um, if it was unlocked, um, but most of the time it wasn't. So I just kind of grin and bear it and used the eighties toilets. Have you been involved much in any kind of activism or following politics around Queer train stuff in New Zealand? Uh, I was part of Queer Ranges when I was living in Wellington. What's that? Uh, basically a kind of quite out there group. Um [00:12:00] it was originally a small group that came from the night march, and that kind of wanted to change. And now it's become quite a big group that is sort of getting a reputation across the country, uh, for being quite out there about what they're doing. What were some of the things you got involved with with them? Um, I was poster boy for, uh, one of their campaigns, um, about trying to get into [00:12:30] schools and kind of getting education into schools and and meeting with the Ministry of Education, which was kind of weird sharing my story. Um, and then the meeting. They actually ended up in tears and a couple of points not of my story, but in a couple of other trans youth stories about their time at school. Um, and they realise stuff needs to change, but they can't really change it. At least that's what they said. So what are some of the changes [00:13:00] you'd like to see in our schools? Uh, in sex and health education, not just male and female couples, Um, getting, like, a little bit adventurous as far as that goes, Um, and then bathrooms are a big thing, kind of just in general, but I know a lot of schools can't accommodate other than just male and female bathrooms, and then it's using, which is safe for everyone. [00:13:30] How do you feel about the marriage equality bill that passed last year? Um, I followed it quite a bit, but it's never really been something that I ever thought about, um, for myself. So, um, are you aware of the bill going through parliament at the moment? With those all around, getting gender into the human rights will be good. Yeah. What do you think of that? Like, um, [00:14:00] just because it's in the human rights doesn't mean it's going to be followed a lot of the time. Um, but it's a stepping stone to let's get it in there. What do you think are some of the other, most important issues that are facing current you in New Zealand at the moment? Um, access to medical care. It has been a big thing for me personally, Um, with moving country or moving cities in the middle of trying to get on hormones [00:14:30] ended up being a three year wait for hormones. Um, and I ended up having to go privately to get my psych assessment because Christchurch District Health Board doesn't actually have anyone who they say is fine to do them. That's currently taking public patients. And not everyone has the the monetary kind of aspect, like three or $400 just for one sit down [00:15:00] to get hormones is kind of ridiculous for most people. What do you see as some of the, um, solutions for that? I don't really know the solutions to such other than the H BS getting more funding, but funding is being cut left, right and centre across district health boards. Um, even if they just find, like one person who they say is OK to do it. Um, because I know people who have paid [00:15:30] for them privately, then had a meeting with the endocrinologist and then got told No, sorry, this isn't good enough. You have to go back for another one. So another $400 down the drain for a couple of bits of paper. What do you know about the, um, kind of history of we in trans rights in New Zealand and internationally? Um, not a lot other than kind of marriage equality kind of across [00:16:00] the world. And that's about it. Where do you hope we might be in, say, 10 years? Everyone is treated as equal no matter what. But history has proven that that takes quite a while. And that little baby steps. Um, if you could give a message to her young trans person struggling coming out of the school and coming out to their family, what would it be? Uh, things do get better. Um, it may [00:16:30] not feel like it at the time, but in five years, you'll look back and be like, Oh, things are so much better now. Oh, and yeah, hormones aren't miracles, but they're a good step Have you had any, um, queer or trans? Um, a, uh, in the States who runs 0. 5 CC, which is one of the big [00:17:00] charities over there. Um, he's pretty cool. He went to charity, and he has a pretty impressive body for someone who was born female and now living as male. What does his charity do? Um, they make clothing. Um, and they've just recently started funding one male top surgery, and they've now opened that up to anyone in the world who's getting surgery in the States. [00:17:30] Um, they only fund a small portion, but it's literally your surgery cost, which is pretty good. And they've just branched off into a male to female line of clothing and transition items. Is that kind of thing. Something you'd like to see here in New Zealand? Uh, yeah. I currently run a small version of that, um, but there just isn't the kind of demand that's justifiable. [00:18:00] And it's really expensive. Especially trying to get, uh, male to female, transition things into the country. And you have so many laws you have to somehow work around and so many import fees. So it kind of makes it not worthwhile. Do you know? Mini? Kind of like famous and trans people? Not really. And don't really, [00:18:30] like watch much TV or involved in much kind of online media. So yeah, not really. Do you think if there had been more, um, positive portrayals in the media and kind of role models around when you were at school, that would have been helpful? Um, I didn't watch TV as a kid. Like I was allowed to watch the news, and that was about it. Um, even like growing up in college, it was literally news. And that was it. And it's not [00:19:00] really something at the moment I'd ever expect to see on the news. Um, but maybe one day on the news there will be a positive light of someone being murdered. Um, what's your favourite thing about being a young trans person in New Zealand making people question things like, um, I met someone who didn't even know what transgender was. And then I kind [00:19:30] of educated them just like a tiny little bit. And they're like, Wow, so you were born a girl, but live a guy and they, like, seem really mind blowing. When I explained it to them.

IRN: 811
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/south_felix.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004313
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089607
TITLE: Felix - South
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Canterbury; Christchurch; Forge (Christchurch); Harvey Milk; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Nelson; Pride; Qtopia (Christchurch); Rule Foundation; Skins (tv); South (series); Tabby Besley; UniQ (Otago); United Kingdom; acceptance; coming out; community; confidence; education; facebook. com; friends; gay; genderqueer; history; homophobia; homophobic bullying; hui; language; marriage equality; media; parents; school; social media; social networking; stereotypes; transgender; transphobia; tumblr. com; university; youth
DATE: 12 May 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Christchurch, Christchurch, Canterbury
CONTEXT: In this podcast Felix talks about identifying as gender queer.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How would you describe your identity? Um, gender queer. Probably like probably the overall way to describe it. What does that mean to you? Um, I try as much like as much as I can. I don't really identify with gender. Like I go with how I feel about it. Um, I, I don't personally feel like I fit in any particular category, and [00:00:30] that's just a sort of thing. Do you think the language that we've used about, uh, identities has changed much over time? It has, but it hasn't like it's got better, I think. Do you find it hard to kind of describing that you identify as gender queer to people? Is it It's really difficult, like it takes me quite a while to actually trust someone enough to then explain that to them because, like in the workplace, I it's too much like it's [00:01:00] too difficult to explain that I work in a bar so it doesn't work out well to explain that to people because you constantly get flow of new people, come in and just take a lot of time to explain that, um, and like with the staff as well, it's they slip up and forget quite a lot. The ones I have explained it to. So it's just a bit like just leave it. I know myself, and, like my good friends, my close ones, they all know [00:01:30] and use it correctly, So that's good. How did you, um, when did you first realise that you were identical Queen? Um, probably like, if I look back on it, I stopped identifying with any gender specifically when I was, like, maybe 13. But, like, I only sort of found out what it was when [00:02:00] I was about 15. So, yeah, how did you learn about it? Um actually, I learned a bit in the UK, but I learned a lot more when I came to New Zealand, which was really good. But what I did learn in the UK did help me. So that was good. How did you this kind of like where did you find that information? Um, so in the UK, I found it through going to pride festivals and stuff from quite a young age was where I first sort of accessed it, but, like it accessed [00:02:30] it for personal interest. When I was sort of a bit older and also the queer groups over there. And then when I came to New Zealand, it was through one of my friends at high school. So tell me about everything over here and inform me of all the groups and things. That was good. Um, did you before you learned that gender queer was like a thing you could be, Um, did you come out as anything else first, um, I came [00:03:00] out as Trans for a wee while, um, because I thought that's what I was. Um, and I came out as outright gay for a very long time, because that's how, like, that's what I thought it was, because that was what I knew about at the time. Um, but then I realised that wasn't actually what it was. And the process of finding that out was quite good for me because it made a better balance for me. So, yeah, it was good. And through any of your coming out, what kind of reactions [00:03:30] did you get from people my parents were really accepting, which was good. Um, I had some quite nasty comments from various different people. Um, but yeah, most of my friends were accepting which was good. The ones that weren't were not really friends anymore. So yeah. What was it like at high school? Did we get out? Um, majority of my close friends in high school knew my peers around me. I wasn't out to them. Just wasn't a thing [00:04:00] that happened. Like if you came out publicly in high school in the UK. Where I was, you weren't gonna have a fun time sort of thing. Um, it just wasn't worth the harassment from everyone else to just do that. So it was just within my close circles that I did. Whereas I came out a bit bigger in New Zealand, and it was quite open, and people knew. So it was good to be here to be able to do that. Did you experience any kind of homophobia or transphobia? Yeah. Heaps and heaps, Um, [00:04:30] like, quite a bit, really. From the people that weren't as accepting, um, just like people yelling across the playground like, really offensive slurs and stuff. And it's just it's not nice to experience at all, but, um, I don't really know how to explain that your school do anything. Not particularly, um, [00:05:00] Over here. they get, um, they For a while in one of my classrooms, they had a swear box. And if he said the word gay, he had to put a dollar in a box, which was really good. And that stopped everyone in the class saying it, which was handy. Um, but it's yeah. So I have to say, and with being gender queer, do you find that it's something you have to? But I guess if I'm just, like, where do you know? Is [00:05:30] it something you have to keep on like coming out and yeah, constantly, Um, like, it's one of those things that every new person that you trust enough to tell you just have to go through the whole explaining process again. Um, a good thing on Facebook now is that you can have gender queer as your gender, which is really cool, like their gender option now is good. So that's quite cool that they actually have that now, and it makes it a lot easier if people actually [00:06:00] access my Facebook first to find out who I am. See that first? That's good. And what kind of things do people who might not like agree with it. Or, like, understand it kind of say to you, people try to challenge it and, like, yeah, they challenge it. What does that mean? But that's not in the Bible. I get from a lot of Christian people. I'm like, OK, cool. Um, sort of. I get things [00:06:30] like counting up. What? Um what, like, how does that impact me? Um, how does that make a difference to you? Like, why is there any difference from calling you him or her sort of thing? Um, yeah, like just pretty much that those sort of questions. And like the offensive things are just horrible, though, like, it's just things you don't want to think about sort of things. It's just nasty and just [00:07:00] not nice. Um, do you remember learning anything about, um, sexuality or did in your health classes at school from year seven to year 10? I did. And then after that, for year 12 and 13, I didn't do health, so I didn't learn anything then, But from year 7 to 10, I did, and I did a tiny, tiny bit in year five and six as well. What kind of stuff did they teach you? um in year five and six. They just taught you the like. Real basics of [00:07:30] people can be transgender, people can be gay and people can be straight. That was the basics that's in UK. But like, they just teach you the mainstream basics because till you get sort of two years, seven when you're a bit more understanding and then they sort of break it down a wee bit more. But it's still quite basic, really, Till you go to art and do your own research. Um, is it important to you to kind of have a sense of, like, community and belonging? Definitely. [00:08:00] Yeah, I think it's good to have a community of people here that are sort of going through similar experiences. Not the same, but similar. So you sort of have that backup of support if you need it there. Um, and it's also good to have someone always to talk to as well, which is nice. Have you been involved in the community or met other people? Um, so, through utopia, I've met a few people in for as well, which are the groups in Christchurch and also [00:08:30] through going to the in Wellington, which have been fun. So I think I met more people through the in Wellington than I have in Christchurch. Can you tell me a bit About what the, um um they're really awesome. Educational weekends run by QSA A from people all over New Zealand, like youth and things to go, Um, stay on the marae for a few days and learn about lots of different things and meet awesome [00:09:00] new people. So much fun. Really enjoy it. And have you, like, kept in contact with all those people. You? Me? Yeah. Yeah. And do you see kind of things like Facebook and all sorts of social media playing more of a part in the way that we connect with other home friends? Definitely so much different. Um, I met cool people from the states using the photo blogging site, or like general blogging site Tumblr and through Facebook as well, just like the different groups [00:09:30] you can have on there of like, um, just various different people. And it's good because all the queer youth groups in New Zealand or have a Facebook page as well. So you can be part of all of those as well and connect with all those sort of people, too, which is good. Have you found any other, um, people who identify iQue? Um, I found a few. Not too many. Um, there's a few, Like, I think I [00:10:00] know one other person in Christchurch and everyone else is elsewhere. But yeah, um, what do you think about the way queer and Trans people are represented in the media? It's It's all right. It's not bad, Like representations at the moment with the, um, marriage bill passing, um, things have become a lot more positive, I found, but I still find if something goes wrong and it's a queer or trans person, it's completely blown [00:10:30] up when it shouldn't be at all. It shouldn't be like that, but it happens and sort of how it goes in the media. And it's silly, really. It shouldn't be like that. It should be treated like everyone else should be treated equally in the media. Really, What do you think about the magical Bill Patton? I think it's good. I think it's probably one of the best moves. It's happened in a long time. Um, I like the whole argument just before it was passed of you wouldn't do this if Pacifica Maori people [00:11:00] were trying to marry, um or like Hispanic people trying to marry. This wouldn't be happening. So why is this happening to them? It's not fair. And it's really good. So, yeah. Did you, um, write a submission or celebrate? Yeah, it happened. Yeah. Um, my mom threw a, um, rainbow party at her work and got me to make rainbow cupcakes. Is it, um, what about like, have you seen any storylines or characters [00:11:30] you can relate to in kind of like books, movies? TV shows? Not particularly, But in Skins, the TV show from the UK Frankie was like, as much as the shows went on, she started to identify more as female. Those first few episodes. She was like, just the way she dressed the way she acted. And everything was really quite gender queer sort of thing. So that was quite a good sort of identification for those starting block episodes. [00:12:00] Why do you think about the way they kind of handled that and went on with it? I think she was who she wanted to be and then changed to fit in, which wasn't too good. But Yeah. Didn't that reflects a lot of people's experience? Maybe a gender? Yeah, definitely changed. Fit in. Um, some people are right and outlandish about who they are, which is really nice, and it's good that they can [00:12:30] do that. But so many people don't have the confidence to be like that. It's all about confidence. A lot of the time and the support from people around. Do you see, um, many like stereotypes of Queen Trans people in the media? Um, yeah, quite a few. Like, sort of. One of the biggest ones I've noticed is with gay people [00:13:00] in general. They just hook up with everyone. It's one of the biggest things like on TV shows. Just they hook up with every single person, and it's not actually how it is half the time, like get the odd one here and there. But majority of people aren't like that. So yeah, it's one of them. And also with another one for, like gay people, is lesbians dressing all butch and gay guys dressing all like them. So, [00:13:30] yeah, that's not what it's like, either. Have you had any, um, role models? Um, a few. A few, um, sort of a lot to do with the industry that my mom worked in. She's a hairdresser. It's quite a big industry for, like, queer and trans people. And I've met a lot of them through her, which was cool. Um, [00:14:00] and there's some really cool people in New Zealand as well that I sort of admire for the way they are, which is cool. Um, do you know of any, like, famous people? I don't actually like. I've tried to find people that are out there, I guess. Um, not really, No. Do you think if it was, like, more widely, um, accepted to be in the that there [00:14:30] would be? Yes, definitely. Definitely. What do you think are some of the most important issues that are facing current trans young people in New Zealand at the moment? Um, acceptance of trans people in general? Um, the knowledge of being gender queer like isn't very vast. Um, having actually like awareness and people respecting them. I think a lot more respect is needed for [00:15:00] people that they think because there's something that they're gonna want to do something. And it's not the case half the time, and I think it needs to be sort of taught people a lot younger over here as well. Be good. What do you think some of the solutions might be? Some of the solutions is wider knowledge. That is a big solution. Um, there's no way to make people more accepting, really other than to inform them and give them knowledge. [00:15:30] And that's sort of the best way to do it. Really, If you could explain to people, um, why it's so important that they see you as gender queer and use the right pronouns and things like that. What would you say? Um, I would just sort of start with explaining to them how would so, like, say they were identifying as female. How would they like it if people just continuously kept calling them him or he I was just like, [00:16:00] Oh, you're such a nice boy sort of thing. How, like dysphoric, they'd feel within themselves and sort of explain that it's just like it affects your feelings a lot and like it makes you feel really dysphoric and sort of hurt almost. And it's good to have that sort of explanation there and just explain to people like how they feel that tends to explain it to you. Do you think it's hard of being, um, being a trans person in the South Island? [00:16:30] I think so. There's more knowledge on the North Island and the South Island. South Island is quite reserved. Really, I'd say, Um, Nelson's pretty good. Like Nelson's pretty out there. Christchurch is all right within the right circles sort of thing. What do you know about, um, history of Queer Rights in New Zealand Or internationally? Internationally? I know quite a bit, um, [00:17:00] half milk and things like that from, um, stuff from the states, Um, with New Zealand. My where I went to high school, they had the first openly lesbian principle, and I think it was either in New Zealand or in the South Island. Um, one of the first queer groups was set up in New Zealand in Nelson, Um, [00:17:30] the obviously the marriage equality bill Passing? Yeah, just like quite a bit. Um, good background knowledge to get me places sort of thing. Where do you think we might be in 10 years time? Hopefully more informed, hopefully more accepting. So I think Yeah, and hopefully it's just gonna be a happier place and because people will actually understand [00:18:00] what's it like? Um, for you, um, transitioning from school into university. Um, it's good, actually, I live in the house, so I just moved in a week ago. Um, most floors, they have either female or male bathrooms. Luckily, on my floor, they have a female male bathroom together, which is, like, nice. So I don't have to choose. It is like the other side, but that's cool. It's still on my floor, which is good and in my building, [00:18:30] so I don't have to run across buildings for showers, which is good. Um, and yeah, it uni is a lot of fun compared to high school high school. You find you're in a condensed place with lots of people that know everyone and anyone, whereas at uni there's so many people there you don't like. It's not the same harassment. There are people more grown up. It's good. It's fun. Have you experienced any homophobic or trans phobia? Not particularly. No. Um, like [00:19:00] my workplace is at the university, and they're all really accepting of things. Um and yeah, it's just not bad there, So it's good. Have you connected with, um, uni or any of the queer support stuff they have there. Um, I haven't as of yet because I've been really busy, um, doing my assignments and everything, so I haven't actually had time yet, but hopefully over my next period of down time, I am gonna have some time. I am signed [00:19:30] up to uniq. So it's a start. What are your hopes for your future? Um, I'm doing engineering and science at the moment to become a a engineer geologist. So see where it takes me. Um, if you could give a message to young people struggling with, um the kind of gender identity, Um, in high school, [00:20:00] what would you say? Don't give up on what people say to you. It it's People are gonna be nasty. You just sort of have to look at it as they're misinformed, trying to educate them. Feel sorry for them, then they don't know. You're like, you're fine. It's them. You just need to know that they just don't have the right like the right knowledge that they need. And what's your favourite thing about being a young person in New Zealand? [00:20:30] Just everything there is here. Um It's not an issue like it would be. The amount of attack on Queer Trans and gender queer and stuff in New Zealand is so minimal compared to the UK. It's so much safer to be out here. It's good.

IRN: 810
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/south_zac.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004312
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089606
TITLE: Zac - South
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; CPIT (Christchurch); Canterbury; Canterbury earthquake 2011; Christianity; Ellen DeGeneres; Faking It (tv); Hagley Community College; Imagine Me and You (movie); It Gets Better; Kaiapoi; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Qtopia (Christchurch); Rangiora; Rule Foundation; South (series); Tabby Besley; bullying; children; coming out; community; depression; drag; equality; facebook. com; family; freedom; gender; gender identity; gender neutral bathrooms; homophobia; homophobic bullying; labels; language; lesbian; marriage equality; media; mental health; movies; non-binary; photography; public display of affection (PDA); relationships; school; sexuality; single sex schools; social media; social networking; stereotypes; transgender; youth; youtube. com
DATE: 12 May 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Christchurch, Christchurch, Canterbury
CONTEXT: In this podcast Zac talks about identifying as non-binary gender.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How would you describe your identity? Really, it's It's kind of complicated, but not I. I would say I'm stereotypical like lesbian in terms that I'm attracted to, mainly women. But I would also date trans people or gender queer people. But I also feel like I do not fit in the gender binary myself, which is why I go by Zach. It was kind of a name I chose so that I could identify with myself. Cool. Um, [00:00:30] what does it mean to you not to fit into the gender binary? I think I just don't fit the stereotype of being male or female. And I also don't really agree with labels like, I think you should be yourself and not label yourself as anything at all, really, It It's just an idea that labels kind of put you into a little group, and I don't really want to do that. Do you think the labels and the [00:01:00] language that we used to describe myself has changed a lot over time? Definitely. Definitely. Um, when I was even in primary school, people never referred to like lesbianism as lesbianism. We referred to it as just gay in general, but then if you go back a few years back, Gay meant happy, so it's changed a lot. And so when did you first become aware that you were attracted to women? I. I remember having a crush on someone [00:01:30] when I was five. Um, she was she was at my school and she was really super cute and she had a little curls and I kind of thought she was like, really awesome. And I wanted to be her best friend. And then I came out when I was 11. So wow, how did that happen? I just kind of assumed that everyone just liked like, whoever they liked. Like, to me, it wasn't even a thing about, like, labels or identity or anything. It was more just like, Hey, you know, I like [00:02:00] girls. I don't care if I say it to people. So I just say to my friends, like when they were starting to get like boyfriends and girlfriends at that age, like, I kind of just assumed that it was OK and normal, and it wasn't. But, you know, it just kind of told people, and then if they didn't like it, I wasn't too bothered What kind of reactions did you get from people from the boys between, like 11 and [00:02:30] 13 of age? Uh, they would always ask, How do you know which was the main reaction? But if they knew they liked girls, they'd naturally like, they didn't have to prove it or anything. And then the girls thought it was disgusting. But I didn't have a lot of friends that were girls. When I was younger, I kind of wasn't exactly a tomboy, but I just didn't care about, like, the cattiness and all of that. So I had, like, maybe three friends that were girls when I was in primary school, But they [00:03:00] were just like, you know, tomboys as well. It wasn't a big deal for them, but the girly girls that were all about flirting with boys and getting attention from boys, they didn't like it at all. And they often would say that I liked them, which was a no, but yeah. Um, did you tell your family? Yeah. Yeah, um, I kind of just assume that they would know as well, Uh, even when I first had, like, little girlfriends, not proper, proper [00:03:30] relationships, but, like kind of the relationships you have when you're like, in primary school or like just getting high school. And I just bring people home and be like, Hey, this is my girlfriend. And they didn't exactly I like it to begin with, but they're totally cool with it now. They they're really open parents. And they didn't really try to change that, Which is good. What was it like when you started high school? Like, did you experience much homophobia? Oh, yeah. I. I went to an all girls school for year nine, [00:04:00] and that was horrible. I was I was sent death threats nearly every day for a year. Um, yeah, it wasn't a very good time at all. And that was because they they kind of started a rumour. A big group of girls that I liked another girl and she didn't like that. And blah and it all just completely blew out of proportion. And I didn't actually have any interest in anyone to begin with, But it was just how it was for Unite Girls. And then I moved to another skull in year 10, and that was super [00:04:30] Christian and I got more death threats there But around that point, I was in, like, my first proper, proper relationship. So I didn't really care the same like as I would have in your name, because, you know, you already had someone that was also going through the same thing and at the same age, so it was a bit better, but, um, it wasn't until I went to a school called Hagley in Christchurch, and it was it was very open. There were drag queens. There were there were men walking around in heels at school. [00:05:00] Everyone was just kind of free to be yourself. And when I went in there on my first day, people kind of were like, You're really shy, but we like you, so they kind of accepted everyone there. So that was kind of a, um So where did you grow up? I grew up at away, which is, like, near the country, kind of for most of my school years. And then when we had the earthquake, our house was destroyed. Uh, so we had to come [00:05:30] into Christchurch, and then I moved schools around then and everything just kind of got better because you weren't in the middle of nowhere. Um, So when you were back at your old schools and kind of experiencing all that bullying, did the schools, like, do anything they support? No, Uh, no support whatsoever. I was I was taken to counsellors nearly every day for year nine because I was trying to convert people, and they saw that this was a problem over any form of, [00:06:00] like, depression or bullying. They saw that that was a problem, as opposed to what was actually mentally affecting me. When when you were young and I had teachers trying to change me and teachers that wouldn't let me sit with certain girls because they thought I was, you know, hitting on them when I wasn't at all just no support at all. And I I really wouldn't send my child if I knew they were gay or anything like that to a a single sex school. [00:06:30] Because of that, like, it's kind of like in high schools that are mixed genders where boys and girls can be separated like right from the get go. It's kind of like that if you come out in a school like that and somebody doesn't like it and you try to speak up. There's nobody that will really listen because they're scared that you're, you know, hitting on other people and making other people feel uncomfortable when it really shouldn't be a problem to begin with. Yeah. [00:07:00] Oh, God. Um, so was there much support and stuff? Um, for people who definitely definitely. There was so much support. I had friends that were younger than me when I started and they were coming out and everyone was just completely open about gender and sexuality and everything there. So it was kind of like a school for people that were gay. I found [00:07:30] that the majority of people that I actually met there were in some way inclined like that. And I think it's just because the environment said that it was OK. So if you went to a different school and and, you know, you were kind of taught that you have to marry a guy, if you're a girl and stuff like that, you don't really stretch out of that. But when you're in a school where it says you know, you can be what you want, you find more people will will go for that. I think it's It's not just really because that's their sexuality. [00:08:00] I think it's because they know they're safe to do it there. What do you think it is about that school that makes it people feel safe? Or how do they put? You know? I know it's OK. It's in a safe environment where the the teachers and the staff, they kind of treat you like you're already an adult and you can make adult decisions for yourself, which is really good because it teaches you from, you know, Year nine, you should grow up a little bit and take responsibility for yourself. So So people kind of have more acceptance [00:08:30] as well for others because, you know, it's all kind of on them what they do and their actions. And I think it's also because Hagley doesn't have uniforms, so you don't get judged on what you wear, and everyone just kind of gets on as a big group, as opposed to se separating off into little groups. It's kind of just more a really open environment than than a school that would be just normal, even the fact that at Hagley you could [00:09:00] choose your classes and you could specialise in things like music or dance. It's just kind of artsy as well in some ways. But yeah, I think it's just that it's open. And there's not many schools that are really like that. I would say they kind of want you to fit into the stereotype of the school as well. Um, and so you've left heavily now What are you doing? I'm at CPIT for my second year of photography, [00:09:30] which is cool. What's that environment like after being in a really homophobic one? Then he really accepting What was it like at CPI? I find it CPI. I think it's because everyone there is mainly, like an adult or at least like of age. So they all kind of just have their own lives. And they they're at the stage where especially like because it's the art scene. You just kind of don't judge people for what you do because you're doing your own like crazy things at the same time. And it's also an environment where, like I have people [00:10:00] in my class that are a lot older than me, and then I've had people that were younger than me. So it's like mixed ages as well. So everyone's at different points in their life, so they kind of all just get on cool. Um, So how did you figure out that you were non binary? I actually used to turn to online videos. There were There were a set of things on on YouTube, which is like a video site. Um, where girls from across like the USA [00:10:30] would talk about like their sexuality. And they'd have, like, weekly videos that they'd upload. And I love those girls like I. I still wish like I travelled overseas and met them. They were so cool, like girls that were, like, 16 17. So I was a little younger than them. And there are a lot of them that would talk about gender identity. And there is one that I know now is actually transgender and has transitioned from female to male. So it was kind of cool to watch that progress. And I kind of realised that [00:11:00] I didn't fit what I was expected to be like from watching these girls in their lives. And, um, do you think sites like Facebook and YouTube and social media play a big part in how young people kind of get information and build community and connect at the moment. Definitely, we're We're in a world where it's entirely made of technology, and these young young Children, like some of my cousins, are 567. And they own ipads like [00:11:30] we're so surrounded by technology. It's kind of like for our generation. We're like the pioneers, like we've never had that before and the people that are older than us haven't had that before. So it's like us experimenting with, like, a new way of living and and social media plays such a big part in, you know, teenagers lives. You kind of spend 90% of your life on Facebook, and you don't know why is having, like, a sense of community and belonging [00:12:00] something that's important to you? Definitely it. It's good to know that you've got people out there that are going through the same thing and have got through it as well, which is something like if I had that sort of support system when I was younger, I think it would have been a lot easier, and I know like for a lot of my friends who are also gay or you know gender identity disorder. They would have had an easier time if they had people that were older than them to, like, guide them and help them. [00:12:30] Have you been involved in any of the groups here in Christchurch? I. I did go to Utopia. I think it is for a while, Uh, which is a a youth group? Um, because I was taking my best friend there. He came out last year at nearly 18, and he had no experience with, like, the gay world or anything. I was the only one that he knew. So I used to take him every week so that he could, like, sit in the corner and watch people. [00:13:00] Yeah, it was kind of like his sort of coming out thing that I had, like, years and years ago. But for him, it was brand new, and he still gets really excited about, like going to LGBT Q events and stuff like that. Like, I'll take him along to things like there's also like after drinks after utopia that the older people go to and I used to take him to that and he would just get so excited to be like in that group. Um, what do you think about the way and people [00:13:30] are represented in the media? Well, for New Zealand's media, I think we're a lot luckier, like, especially with, like the gay marriage bill being passed. We We're a lot luckier in this country because even the fact that that was enhanced on the news means we're a lot like better off than other places. It's kind of more accepted. But then, in terms of even TV and movies and such, like the way [00:14:00] we're portrayed is still very stereotypical. It's not seen as us being human beings. It's more like this is the stereotype. If we're gonna have a gay character in this TV show, they've got to be extremely flamboyant. Um, I think it's just that we have to show that we can break out of that stereotype and especially with, like the media and the news, we have to show that it's not even the fact that we're gay. It's the fact that we are human beings over that, [00:14:30] and we're equal to like every single other person on this planet. Really. Have you seen any characters or storylines like in movies or activity that you can relate to or books. OK, I've been having lesbian movie night like actual movies for the last few weeks because I've been on holiday because I've been watching like cute lesbian movies with, like, couples. The main stereotype I've seen like in these movies, is either they're like school girls and then they fall in love. But they can't [00:15:00] be together, kind of like Romeo and Juliet style, or it's a relationship that's like a marriage. And then that girl meets another girl and then cheats on her husband for that girl. And it happens in every movie. It's like That's not right. Sometimes people just meet each other like, but it's kind of the same storylines. And then there's even on TV. There's a show that's come out on MTV called Faking It, and the girls are faking being lesbians to get attention in high [00:15:30] school, which I don't know about you that that probably doesn't happen in real life either. But one of the girls is actually gay and the other one's not, and it's all just very drama fueled, and it's like that doesn't happen in real life either. So a lot of it's made up. Really? Like it's not based on actual real people in gay relationships or anything. What are some of the movies? Oh, gosh. I I wouldn't even remember. There was There was Imagine me and you. [00:16:00] I know that was one that I watch. And then there was a one about two schoolgirls. But one of them like dies. Yeah, but like, yeah, just looking them up and looking up like top 50 lesbian movies and going through them. What would you like to see? More of actual relationships and relationships Where say, the couple has a child together, which I know is kind of seen as like, a taboo thing in a lot of places [00:16:30] as well. For like, a lesbian or gay couple to have kids or adopt kids, Um, and just sort of showing a family environment kind of as well as like, how it actually would be to be in a relationship like that and live with your partner and stuff like that. Because you see, like, you know, all over the media even like straight relationships where you know they'll move in together and everything, and you don't really see that the same. So you don't even know what you're in for. Really. [00:17:00] Have you had any, um, like, queer role models like Oh, gosh, Ellen DeGeneres is my favourite. I think she's like everyone's favourite. She's just quirky, but she's just got this love and like life in her, and it's like she's gone through so much in her life, and she still seems really, really young. It's just her energy, really. I think everyone loves her. And how [00:17:30] do you feel about the marriage equality bill that passed? I think it's great, I really do. I really do think it's great, like at the time I was actually in a relationship where I was planning to spend, like the rest of my life with this girl who I'm still really good friends with now. But it didn't work out, Um, mainly because also, we are still very young, But it was, I think, the day of that bill that I actually kind of said to her, You know, I, I really would like to spend my life with you and she was like, Hey, we could do that now [00:18:00] So it's kind of like a really good thing because, like people my age have that to look forward to in the future, like and then I know there are people that are like even in their fifties and so that are getting married now because of it. And it's so exciting. Um, so we've got marriage equality. What do you think are some of the other issues that face screen terms, especially young people in New Zealand? Who? I don't know if I really took with us. [00:18:30] Um, I had a friend who is transgender and he always has problems with bathrooms, and that's that's a big thing. I noticed we went out on the weekend and he got in trouble at several places that we went to for going into the woman's bathroom, which he felt that he still needs to use. But if he goes into the men's bathroom, he gets in trouble as well because you can't do that. And I just felt really sorry for him, because that, to me, [00:19:00] is a a big issue as well. Like the whole unisex thing should be a thing. I think that happens like, you know, overseas. They have unisex bathrooms for everything. The thing for a trans person that's particularly hard because you're stuck like in the middle, and no matter what option you choose, you can still end up in a lot of trouble just for wanting to go to the bathroom. So I think that's a big thing, really. Um, what [00:19:30] are your hopes for the future, for your own future and for for my future? Oh God, I really, really do wanna like, meet the love of my life and have Children That's always been a really, really big thing for me to have a family and, like travel the world and everything, Um, but also in terms of everyone else. My dream is kind of to live in a world where everyone's like, [00:20:00] equal and everyone's the same. No matter what your religion or your identity or your gender, no matter your age or your disabilities like everyone is just seen as being a human being. And in some ways, labels are cut altogether because I know people use them sometimes to help identify themselves. And I think that's a really, really good thing. But it's when those labels are used against people. That's a negative part of society. So I really would love to live in a world [00:20:30] where, like, you could walk down the street and everyone would be so happy and so full of love. And just everyone would just get on and not judge other people for how they feel that they are. Really, Um if you could give a message to young people out there who are struggling with their sexuality or gender, what would you say? It's gonna be the the normal. It it does get better. When when you really think about it, it will get better. [00:21:00] You just have to try fighting every day. And don't be ashamed to be yourself. And don't apologise for who you feel you are. Yes, there are like nearly 8 billion people in this world, and I guarantee there's somebody out there that's gonna want to spend the rest of their life with you. So don't give up that person's out there and just be yourself. Really, because that's the best thing you can be in this world is just completely yourself. You'll be alright. Um, and what's your favourite [00:21:30] thing about being a young person in New Zealand? I think it is the freedom. I think it's the fact that when I've been in relationships. I can kiss that person in public, can walk down the streets and hold their hand and that's OK. Whereas if you were in other countries, you can still be sentenced to death for doing that, which is a really big shame that our world is still like that, really. But I think it's beautiful that in New Zealand, like [00:22:00] it's a bit of hope for people, really and young people.

IRN: 808
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/south_sarah.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004311
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089605
TITLE: Sarah - South
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Christianity; Dunedin; Invercargill; It Gets Better; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Orange Is the New Black (tv); Rule Foundation; South (series); Tabby Besley; UniQ (Otago); University of Otago; abuse; activism; anxiety; butch; children; church; coming out; community; counselling; facebook. com; family; femme; friends; growing up; homophobia; homophobic bullying; identity; labels; language; law; lesbian; marriage equality; media; parents; politics; queer; religion; representation; role model; rural; school; single sex schools; social media; social networking; stereotypes; stress; support; university; violence; youth
DATE: 9 May 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Dunedin, Dunedin, Otago
CONTEXT: In this podcast Sarah talks about growing up in Invercargill and identifying as lesbian.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How would you describe your identity? Lesbian. Would you, um, say that you fit into any kind of, like, sub, um categories or like, cultures or that, or do many people that you know, Um, do you mean like, fear? But, um, I don't know. I don't really agree with those categories. I think it's you don't really judge straight people like that. Do you think the way that we've looked at our sexual orientation [00:00:30] and gender, especially in terms of language, has changed much? Um, I think that labels have definitely they starting to be less important. Like a lot of people I know are just happier saying queer than, like gay by whatever. Why do you say, say this? Um, I don't know. I think it's more like people are more free to have whatever experiences they want. Like more gay people feel safe, like having straight experiences and, [00:01:00] you know, vice versa. Like straight people expe well, not experimenting, but having experiences and then I don't know. I don't know. People are just more open to accepting that it's fluid, I think, Um, when did you first become aware that you your sexual orientation was lesbian? Um I grew up in Invercargill, which is very rural, very conservative as a whole. So it took quite [00:01:30] a while. I denied it for quite some time. It was more when I was about, like, 15 or 16, kind of like hormonal that it became incredibly obvious. But even then, um, I guess I was confused because everything around me was so heteronormative that I was convinced that I was still into guys. So that took a while to, like, work through it, just convince us. Definitely anti guys. For the longest time. [00:02:00] Do you remember seeing any kind of like messages from society or people around you about, um, queer identities? Um, at my first high school? A lot of people used to be really anti gay, like, say, the usual things. Like it's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. Um, I don't know, just lots of really cringeworthy things like that. And I went to an all girls school in in so I don't know, there [00:02:30] was a lot of, like, gay jokes and stuff like, uh, she's a lesbian and like the like, a little area of seats that they call like the lesbian pit. Because no one wanted to sit there. Um, yeah. So that was pretty much all I heard about queer people for a while. What happened when you figured out that you were into girls? Um, it was a little problematic. Like, I kind of tried to fight it a little bit. And then when I was sixth form, [00:03:00] I changed high schools, and I kind of went to a more liberal high school, I guess. I don't know. I just had, like, a lot of different people, so I don't know. Um, not everyone there was really negative. Most people were just really chill, like, didn't have a problem with most things so And it gave me more room to kind of work out my identity, I guess. Do you have, like, a coming out narrative? Um, [00:03:30] I don't know. I was pretty sneaky about it. I just came out so gradually because I just didn't want it to be a big deal. Um, but I definitely because of where I was living because I lived way out in the country about like, 45 minutes out from Inca. I knew that I couldn't come out to my parents because I didn't really have anywhere else to go. I don't have any relatives in the area. Um, I don't know. It seems a bit much to put that on my friends to, like, have to stay with them. [00:04:00] So I came out to my friends really gradually and then waited until I was at university to tell my parents. How did that go? Really, Really, really badly? Um, yeah. Like kind of the classic story of telling, like conservative, homophobic parents that you're gay, like, had all the classic reactions. Like, my mom cried quite a bit. Um, my dad [00:04:30] didn't look at me for three months, Didn't talk to me. Um, they threatened to cut me off. Um, so that would be really hard for me to manage staying at uni because I didn't have a job or anything. At the time, I was kind of like supplementing what I was getting from the government and, like, study link, um, with money from them. So it was kind of tricky, and then they calmed down, but I don't know. I used to get, like, homophobic texts [00:05:00] from them all the time. Um, they told me that I was mentally ill. and I need to get checked out. Um, my mom cried because she thought I was going to hell because they're like Catholic. I don't know. They seemed pretty chill about their religion until it came out to them. Um, I don't know. It's I guess it was really hard for them because they're from a very conservative, Catholic farming bloke background. [00:05:30] So everything they'd ever known was like, shaped towards This is bad. Mhm. How did that those kind of reactions feel? Um I was under a lot of pressure because I was doing, um, my hardest year of my law degree at the time, and I actually ended up suffering from anxiety, having panic attacks. Um, that were pretty bad. So I ended up going to counselling for a bit. But I don't know, the more [00:06:00] it kind of died down, And the more I kind of dealt with it in counselling, the better it was. And are they a bit more supportive now or is it still pretty hard? We just don't talk about it. Yeah. I mean, I get a few homophobic jabs from them sometimes, so it kind of makes it tricky to go home for more than two weeks at a time. Do you think it's harder to be, um, grew in the South Island? Definitely. Um, I guess because there's not any real queer [00:06:30] role models like growing up. I think I heard of, like maybe one gay couple in the community that owned, like a cafe or something. Um, but that was it. There was no one openly gay around, even like the really obviously gay people at high school didn't come out because they were too afraid. And like there's always stories that here, like I heard a story about a lesbian couple that got married and then their house got burnt down and, like, ridiculous things like that. [00:07:00] So, I, I think it's better now because I've heard that there's like openly gay couples at the girls only high school. I went to now so obviously getting better. But I don't know. They say that the South Island is like 30 years behind the North Island. So there's that, um, what's it like being kind of transitioning from rural Invercargill to Dunedin and going to university and being out so good, so, so good? [00:07:30] Um, I guess because is such a concentration of like students. You don't really have as many like old mentalities around the place. Um, but that being said, there's still a lot of homophobia, kind of like in the shadows, I guess. Like this guy that I know got beaten up by 10 guys and put in hospital. Two of my straight male friends were walking home one night and got beaten up because people thought that they were a gay couple. [00:08:00] Um, I've been, like, verbally assaulted on my way home from town, like this guy just screaming, ridiculous abuse. But apart from those small, isolated incidents, incidences, um, it's a lot better, I think. Like I had a girlfriend earlier in the year and I didn't feel that scared, like holding hands with her or anything, but obviously a few looks Dunedin. Are you involved? Um, much with the [00:08:30] queer community here. Or, um, I'm pretty heavily involved. I'm on the committee for uniq, the queer group on campus that's run through like one of the university clubs and societies things. Um, so that's cool. We just organise like weekly queer hangouts and, like monthly or every two months, like have parties and stuff It's cool. [00:09:00] Is it important to you to kind of have a sense of, like, community and belonging? Definitely. Um, because I think a especially if you come from like a kind of conservative, not very queer, friendly community. You're automatically kind of reluctant. When you go to a new place like you, you're not sure who's safe to talk to, who's going to be cool with it. Who's going to be a bit of a dick. Um, so it's nice, like having a weekly thing where I don't have [00:09:30] to explain myself. I don't have to, like, worry about someone saying something really annoying. Um, I don't know. I think it keeps me sane. Um, have you seen like Facebook and social media playing a part in how we youth in New Zealand are like connecting or finding information building communities? Yeah, definitely. Like, there seems to be a lot of, um, Facebook groups cropping up like even from inver cargo. There's a few. I mean, they're really small. But, um, obviously [00:10:00] it's important to the people there because they feel so isolated. And I know um, on like the Dunedin Queer pages that I'm a member of you see, like all these silent little editions that don't go to anything, and, you know, don't say anything on any posts. But it obviously means a lot to them, like being a part of it in somewhere. Um, how do you feel about the way that queer and trans people are represented in the media? Kind of frustrating. It's not really enough [00:10:30] representation, I think, like when you do see where characters it's always like middle class, white, gay male, Um, never that many queer female characters, unless it's like a rating stunt or like a big scandal. Or, you know, And then, um, if it's like a queer female who's interested in guys as well, they often say, like, Oh, she's straight again Now it's like, Well, you're kind of erasing her whole past. [00:11:00] Have you seen any characters or storylines that you can relate to? Um, I like orange is the new black Um, that was refreshing because they don't really sensationalise the queer characters, but I don't know they still deal with it at the same time. If that makes sense, do you see lots of, um, stereotyping of quick characters in the media? Yes. Oh, my God. Yes, everyone is just a caricature through [00:11:30] the media drives me insane. Um, like, especially talking to some of my straight friends who haven't had much to do with queer people when they tell me what they think gay people are like, it's always just like a stereotype. Like, how many times have I heard someone say that all gay guys are fabulous and, like, effeminate and super fashionable, and it's not the case at all? And then they think that all, like [00:12:00] lesbians are really frumpy and masculine and tough. Um, have you been involved much or followed kind of any of the like politics around any query, train and stuff in New Zealand? Or if you've been involved in any activism, um, not like active at all, I'd say, But I don't know. We definitely had, like, a celebration for the marriage equality thing here, [00:12:30] Um, through like the queer groups here, we all kind of banded together and had a big drunk celebration. How did you feel about the bill passing? Um, pretty good, actually came at a really good time for me because it was like when my parents were at a really crucial time with dealing with it. Um, And when I visited home, I'd see them like secretly watching it on the news. And I think that was really good for, like, a government to take a stand and say that, you know, [00:13:00] it's not wrong. People deserve basic rights. Everything is equal. I don't know. It was good. What do you think are some of the issues that, um we're still a community still facing here? Um, I don't think that there's enough role models for queer people. I mean, in my hometown, like the queer people I did hear about we usually like I don't I don't wanna [00:13:30] being mean, But they were usually, like, kind of losers that, like, their life, was a mess. They were just messing things up, left and right, and they weren't going to, like, be very happy. And you just saw them like this horrible little spiral. Um, yeah, I think definitely more role models like, I don't know if you asked like any queer person. If they could even list, like, 10 strong role [00:14:00] models at a queer, you'd be struggling. Where do you hope that we might be in, like, 10 years time? um, in 10 years time. I hope that it's not like a huge deal to be queer. Um, like, I would hope that it would be chill enough that people don't even feel the need to comment on it. Um, like I'm just sick of being introduced to people like, Oh, she's gay. You definitely don't [00:14:30] go like, Oh, this is my friend. She's black. It's just I don't know. It's frustrating. Um, and yeah, I hope that there would be more accurate portrayals of queer people in the media and more queer characters on TV and in movies and more role models. Have there been any role models for you? Um, last year the law department at Otago brought a gay judge to visit, which [00:15:00] is pretty cool because I don't know especially like going into a professional area. You don't hear of many queer people. I mean, obviously there's probably, like, billions of queer lawyers, but and I just didn't really think about it. Like when I went to a CV workshop. They told me to keep my CV very conservative and aim for, like, a conservative audience. So it was nice to, um, meet like a queer judge who talked about his experience like because he's pretty old. Obviously, [00:15:30] judges are old. Um, but he said how he had to keep closeted, um, for a long time. Um, but now that he's out, he I don't know. It was just nice hearing about queer people in the profession I'm going into. What are your hopes for your future? Um, get an awesome life, get an awesome job. Have kids. Have you thought much about how you would, like, go about having kids? Um, [00:16:00] um, yeah, I'm just like we face. Uh, I don't know. I guess I'm only like, 22. I haven't really sussed out the details in my mind. Um, if you could give a message to, like, young people struggling with their sexuality and kind of rural New Zealand, what would it be? Um, that there's probably a heap of other queer people around you, but they are not open about [00:16:30] it either. Um, I know that for me, I felt like I was the only one. But now that I don't know, a lot of time has passed. I can see that I was actually surrounded by a lot of other queer people and a lot of people that I thought wouldn't be so supportive turned out to be like the most supportive friends that I've had about it. And I don't know if it's like things are tough. You're always going to hear from, like, the queer community. It gets better, which is [00:17:00] the most frustrating thing to hear at the time, because it's such a cliche now. But it actually does. What do you think you would have? What might have helped you with that kind of that time and age, like living with your parents? And, um, it would have helped me if I'd felt safer to branch out to people around me because I was so afraid of like talking to people. I didn't know who would be OK with it, who wouldn't, um, enter for the shelf? What's your favourite [00:17:30] thing about being a person in New Zealand? Um, I don't know. I just love like all of the queer people that I've met, like through the community. It's a lot of fun, and it's nice just being able to talk to people around me who share the same experiences. It's kind of nice being like unique in some way.

IRN: 807
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/south_kerry.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004310
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089604
TITLE: Kerry - South
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Christchurch; Dunedin; France; House of Cards (tv); OUSA Queer Support (Otago University Students' Association); Orange Is the New Black (tv); Rape Crisis; Rule Foundation; South (series); Tabby Besley; UniQ (Otago); activism; agender; aphobic; aromantic; asexual; autism; community; depression; facebook. com; family; film; health; health system; homophobic bullying; invisibility; media; mental health; non-binary; parents; passport; pathologisation; queer; queerphobia; school; social media; social networking; stereotypes; support; television; transgender; university; violence; youth
DATE: 9 May 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Dunedin, Dunedin, Otago
CONTEXT: In this podcast Kerry talks about identifying as asexual, aromantic and agender.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um how would you describe your identity? Um, I am as sexual a romantic and a gender awesome. Um, do you want to talk a bit? About what? Some of those What? All of those words mean to you, Um, as sexual and a romantic mean that I don't experience sexual or romantic attraction to other people, respectively. Um, a gender means I don't really [00:00:30] feel that the concept of gender applies to me or is a useful way for me to describe myself or how I interact with other people. Um, and I would prefer it not to be a factor in how other people react to me and interact with me. So, um, how did you come to find those, um, that words and community or way of identifying? Um, I [00:01:00] kind of figured out I was There's something going on with the ice stuff. Um, when I was about 15 or 16 after, um, several interestingly failed relationships like hm. Maybe something's going on, um, and started making up all these crazy long words and ways to sort of struggling to explain it to people. And then, um, a friend of mine [00:01:30] just mentioned, like, offhand that one of their friends was as and I was like, Oh, and we Googled it and it was like, Ah, that's nice. They exist. Um, And then the gender stuff kind of came about as a result of that. Like, I'd always assumed that I was straight just because I didn't really have any compelling evidence to the contrary. Like, I you know, I didn't wanna I don't wanna have [00:02:00] sex with women. So therefore, must be straight. Um, I hadn't really thought that hard about the fact that I didn't actually want to have sex with guys either. And then, yeah, once, I kind of realised that that was what I'd been doing. I started kind of wondering if I was doing the same thing with gender. Like, you know, I didn't feel like a guy, so yeah, I didn't really considered that I might not actually be [00:02:30] female either. Um, figured that out. Which was good. Started identifying as non binary publicly in first year of university. Um, Aromantic has kind of been a bit of a a bit of a journey. Um, I don't feel like the relationships I have and seek [00:03:00] out are, um, tied enough to what is like romantically coded for that to be a useful way of describing them, like starting off describing like, you know, this is a romantic relationship but tends to take more time than this is not a romantic relationship. But, um, I don't really identify with, you know, conventional narratives of romance and, [00:03:30] like, sort of one on one relationships and pair bonding and not something I've ever really been interested in. So, um, have you found many other kind of people Internet? Not in New Zealand that you can relate to? Yeah. Um, yeah. And it's not huge numbers of asexuals around, but I've I found quite a few, actually. I tend to meet them through completely [00:04:00] non queer related stuff, which is quite interesting. I think I've met one other ace fiction person through an explicitly queer event and about four or five through, like poetry and, you know, film clubs and stuff, which is cool. Um, one of my flatmates is also asexuals and a gender, which is quite nice. We can complain about everyone else together. So [00:04:30] is that important to you to have kind of a sense of, like, community or belonging to that, or just knowing other people. It's important to have a sense of definitely important to have a sense of community. I feel like the nightmare needs for the community are largely filled by the queer community, um, queer community in the sense of actually diverse and representative [00:05:00] of all the spectrums rather than white gay boys. But, um, yeah, I don't really feel the need for a specifically AEX community, for example. Um, that said it is nice to know them that yeah, no, the queer community is a good place to be. Do you feel like the queer community is inclusive and kind of encompassing of people? Queer community [00:05:30] is very, very fragmented in Dunedin. And I think in most places, um, bits of it are definitely, um, have you been involved much in in clear events or like stuff that happens at the end of this year? Um, I'm an intern at the University Queer Sport Centre, so that means I'm involved in, um, sort of running staff trainings and peer support. And, um, like putting in a lot of the behind the scenes [00:06:00] work and all the events that the centre runs, which is nice. Um, on the uniq committee, which is like the Queer Social Club for the university. So that's mostly like parties and and movie nights and stuff. But it's Yeah, it's still a lot of fun. And it's important to have you know, that as well as the more pastoral support side of things. Um, yeah, those are the two main [00:06:30] ones at the moment. And have you experienced much, I guess. Transphobia from I my friends. How many people I got? Um I got quite a bit of shit for being quit in year 13, but, um, yeah, the dude that came from So I was a lesbian, [00:07:00] so I don't know if that actually counts the, um yeah, And then I was in, um, the Hall of residence first year, which was kind of, um there was never anything directed towards me, but just the general environment was very unwelcoming. Sort of. Yeah, just like that kind of high school casual use of slurs [00:07:30] and stuff. It was It was pretty gross and made me quite uncomfortable. Um, but since leaving there, I found most people tend to be way better with it than you think they're gonna be once you explain it? Um, there's a few kind of like, Oh, that doesn't exist, which is a bit rubbish. But people have way more trouble with the gender stuff I find, um, right, [00:08:00] possibly. Just because it's more visible, like, you know, you're not gonna get yelled at on the street for being a But people can often tell if you're presenting very sort of gender nonconforming, Um, which hasn't happened too much recently. But, um, like, in 1st and 2nd year. Um, just because of the parts of, like, the student area I had to walk through to get home, Um, I [00:08:30] get, you know, yelled at, and it's like the the groups of dude bros drinking on their lawns in the late afternoon or, like throw bottles and shit, which isn't isn't brilliant. Um, and then I go up, grabbed once, Um, because yeah, they were yelling at me, and I was like, Yeah, boy, go. And I just didn't answer. And so they came over and grabbed me until I talked to them, which wasn't fun, but [00:09:00] yeah, I don't know, Like it hasn't been. It hasn't been that bad. Um, my family, my brother, is cool. with it, but he's supremely chill and pretty cool with everything. Um, I only came out to my parents a few months ago, and I honestly can't quite tell how they're taking it because they don't like to talk about stuff very much. Like my dad just kind of went real [00:09:30] quiet and hasn't mentioned it since I talked to him, and I'm not super keen to restart that conversation. Um, my mother, I don't think she got it. But then she I told her I was, um, applying to change the gender marker on my passport and she started crying. I was like, Oh, fuck. But then a couple of weeks later, she, um, just out of the blue like, sent me enough money to cover the passport change fees. It's like, Ah, [00:10:00] like she's not the kind of person who would ever acknowledge like, Hey, that was fucked up. Sorry I did that. But I, I think that's what she was going for. So, yeah, I think it's just kind of a matter of thinking about it a little while because it's a bit outside the sort of realm of experience. Um, how does it feel to kind of constantly have to be like explaining or educating people about your identity [00:10:30] is so shit, I don't know, like this is there are definitely benefits, I think, to flying under the radar in terms of you don't get sort of so much explicit. Um, bile beauty, I suppose. But yeah, just, um at least if you say you're gay, people know what that means. Like, I don't know. It's [00:11:00] kind of I don't, um I don't feel comfortable being read as straight or it makes me really uneasy, but it's just it's not something you can like drop into conversation. You need to be prepared to do, like, a half hour or 101 with everyone you talk to. Bye. It's taken way longer than it should. So it's frustrating more than anything. Whereabouts. Did you grow up [00:11:30] Christchurch and, um, Lyon in France for a little while, but mostly Christchurch. Um, have you seen much difference between how I guess phobia or how people are treated between Christchurch and, um, I didn't start. Um, I didn't start identifying as queer until quite late in high school, and [00:12:00] then I moved down here. As soon as I finished um so I'm sure that would have an influence on her. But, um, I feel like a lot of it is actually what kind of bits of town you're moving around and like, in Dunedin, like, I live in the student area, and then you have the uni and town, and it's all kind of very close together and very populated. Um, and I don't really [00:12:30] I I've never You know, I've never felt particularly unsafe. Like, you know, you get people yelling at you, but it's just drunk people being idiots. Um, like most of the instances of violence in Dunedin have been more like out in suburbia. Um, which is not somewhere I ever really go in Dunedin because I don't need to. Like, everything I need is in this quite small radius. Um, I don't know. [00:13:00] I mean, I guess because in Christchurch I was at school. There was a lot of, you know, the kind of high school kids being being dicks and stuff, which I'm sure goes on here. But I'm not in school anymore, so I don't see it. Um, yeah, it's quite difficult to compare, Like university to high school, I think, Um Do you see Facebook and social media playing a part, Um, in the way that you [00:13:30] will ever, um, we connect and kind of find information. And like most of, um, well, most of our events are organised primarily through Facebook just because it's easier. Um, and the fact that you can do kind of public events and stuff makes it easier to reach people who might not necessarily feel like they have, like an end to the community, which is quite cool. It is something we're definitely working on. Um, [00:14:00] and then kind of the prevalence of, um, blogging and sharing sites is definitely making a huge difference in terms of education. I think, like just because what you're able to access is not explicitly education material like it's not kind of someone's sat down to teach you about the thing. It's like [00:14:30] you can actually come like find people talking just about their experiences and about their own lives, which is in terms of actually kind of understanding people, rather than knowing facts about them is a lot more helpful, I think so. What do you think are some of the biggest issues facing current trans people in New Zealand at the moment, I think just kind of casual, um, casual homophobia [00:15:00] and queer phobia. And like a range of smaller identities, like just that kind of constant low level stuff is still a huge deal. Like it just it wears you down so much. And it would be really nice if that stopped gonna give some examples of how I look like, Well, I mean, the Eurasia, you don't tend to see queer people portrayed in [00:15:30] media or anything, unless it's for a narrative purpose. Um, like using sexuality as a plot device rather than something that just, you know, people just have, um yeah, especially. And even even then, it's generally gay men, sometimes lesbians, if you're lucky. Um, I don't think I can think of any ice characters. [00:16:00] Oh, I suppose, Sheldon. But that's not exactly It's like a shiny example of healthy ace representation. Um, what does that look like? It's just, um, the kind of around her sexuality. There's a lot of tropes about, um, you know, being, um, there's a really strong, um, kind of socially enforced correlation [00:16:30] between asexuality and forms of autism, which is shit for both a and autistic people because it's not true like, um and you know, like, that's not that's not helping either community. Um and yeah, the kind of like no social skills, reclusive, hyper genius thing. It's a big stereotype, massive stereotype [00:17:00] when it is in the media, it's really it's very stereotype, and you get that with a lot of other stuff as well. Um, it's just, yeah, it's just frustrating. Like so, you know, you kind of every piece of media you can see it's like, This is suffocating. No one like me or my friends seems to exist in these worlds. Yeah. Have you seen any, um, anything in the middle of where they are? Everything include people. [00:17:30] Um, there are definitely some out there. Um, this kind of the whole like, television revolution thing that's happening at the moment has been really, really brilliant for it, because it's finally, um, beginning to democratise media creation in a way that hasn't happened for, like, 50 years. Um, which is incredibly exciting. And it means that you're getting, you know, people who have less, um, [00:18:00] sort of political power and institutional power in, um sort of the centres of media creation being able to tell their own stories. Um and so you're getting things, you know, like orange is the new black and all black and, um, house of cards and all those kind of like, little little things that are people are finally able to make that wouldn't have been able to be made even like five or 10 years ago. Um, that's incredibly exciting. Um, [00:18:30] I feel like the same thing hasn't happened with film just because, Like, the way, um, the way the Internet sort of revolution thing has happened is really only affecting TV in that way at the moment, um and so film is still controlled by the same people and the same kinds of people that it has been for decades. And [00:19:00] so nothing's changing and also because that's all that is available. People still go. People still consume their media, And that then means that those people can point and be like, Look, people are still consuming the media. We don't need to change anything, um, which is unfortunate. And I don't think anything's going to change about that with any speed. Unless something [00:19:30] similar happens to the film industry to kind of radically restructure where the power of creation lies and give more power back to the consumer. I'm not sure if it's the thing that's gonna happen, it would be nice. Do you think Where do you think we might be in, like, 10 years with With in relation to both media and Other like issues and anything? Hm? I'd like to think we've gotten a bit better at general health care. That would be nice. [00:20:00] Um, my, um my flatmate has been in and out of, um, emergency psych and psych wards for the last few weeks and just how unbelievably difficult it is to get people to actually use non-binary pronouns. And just especially when it's a psych issue. And it's just like you are making this worse, like you [00:20:30] are actively making this worse. And it's it's very frustrating. Um, yeah, thankfully, they're home now, but it would be nice to for that to kind of not be an issue and, um, sort of in especially trans identities. But other queer identities as well still tend to get pathologize in a way that, um, impedes treatment of other issues like it's not even [00:21:00] directly queer related stuff like, you know, trans healthcare and, um, sexual health and stuff like that, which obviously needs more work. But, um, just the way queerness gets, like, tangled in and pathologize with other stuff. Um, like, they ended up, um, speaking to a psychiatrist about, um, the stuff that was going on and then when they were discussing medication, mentioned that they were planning to go on hormones. [00:21:30] Um, just because they wanted to kind of cover all their bases in terms of, you know, medicine, interactions and stuff. A psychiatrist like seized on this as a you know, a huge part of their problem is like, No, they can be. They can be trans without that being part of the psych issues. Um, and yeah, like, I was, um, refused treatment for depression by one counsellor because I refused to also attempt to solve my sexual [00:22:00] problem. Um, which was a bit rubbish. And, yeah, just stuff like that. Like the patho organisation of queer identities. It would be nice to see that change, and I think it's just it's just an education thing. Um, but I think for that to change education needs to target medical schools like it just seems like a huge waste that we're not doing that. Like, we've got sort of the entire [00:22:30] population of medical practitioners bottlenecking through two centres in the country like there's a perfect opportunity. Um, so hopefully that'll be something that could happen. That would be nice. Do you engage much with kind of, um, politics in New Zealand around and stuff? Um, probably not. As much as I feel like I should, um, I yeah, I mean, I'm I'm only 19, so I haven't had to vote yet, but I'm gonna have to do research and figure out what to do when [00:23:00] that comes around. Um, yeah. I don't know. I'm kind of involved in political stuff. More on a, um I guess, Like, grassroots level kind of stuff. Like university university campaigns. And, um yes, yes. Supporting things like the quest centre and rape crisis and stuff like that. Um, sort of actual [00:23:30] active, I guess. Active politics, like, you know, sort of working in politics as opposed to political activism, is not something that interests me at all. Um, I admire people who can do it, but it's not for me. Really. Um, if you could give a message to young [00:24:00] or non binary people out there. What would it be? You You exist. It's real. Um, try not to second guess yourself too much, I guess. Mhm. Um, when you finish up, what's your favourite thing about being a young and good person in New Zealand? The community that I have met so many indescribably amazing people that [00:24:30] I don't think I would have met otherwise. And also being exposed to things that make me a much better person, like the sort of, you know, sociological discourse and discussion of like how our world and our society works is not something I think I would have come across to anywhere near the same degree. And I'm, you know, I'm very glad I did, [00:25:00] because I think it's made me better.

IRN: 806
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/south_annabel.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004309
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089603
TITLE: Annabel - South
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; A-Camp; Aotearoa New Zealand; Boys Don't Cry (film); Catholic school; Dunedin; Invercargill; Laverne Cox; OUSA Queer Support (Otago University Students' Association); Orange Is the New Black (tv); Purple Passions (soccer team); Rotorua; Rule Foundation; South (series); Tabby Besley; afterellen. com; autostraddle. com; coming out; community; education; facebook. com; femme; film; friends; genderqueer; homophobic bullying; identity; internet; lesbian; marriage equality; media; parents; queer; relationships; representation; role model; school; sex education; social media; sport; stereotypes; support; teaching; television; tomboy; transgender; tumblr. com; youth; youtube. com
DATE: 9 May 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Dunedin, Dunedin, Otago
CONTEXT: In this podcast Annabel talks about coming out as a lesbian.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How would you describe your identity? Um, is I identify as a lesbian? So, yeah, Do you think the language that we use to talk about our sexual orientation has changed much over time? Um, I haven't really thought about it a lot, but I was talking to my mom on the phone and I was because I'm a Quest support intern this year. And I was telling her about that, and she was quite surprised that we used [00:00:30] the word quit. So I think that's kind of changed. It's definitely changed a bit, and I think there's definitely a lot more kind of labels and stuff that people use. And it's a lot well, within my friend groups and stuff. It's really easy to talk about. It's not a an issue or anything, like a lot of people, kind of, uh, quite familiar with a lot of different labels. So what do you see? Um, Clara meaning to you? Um, I think it's kind of just I think [00:01:00] of it as an umbrella term for kind of anyone that doesn't identify as heterosexual or Susten. So I think it's kind of a nice, all encompassing term that can kind of be a good way to to identify as queer if you're not quite sure, if of if you're still kind of trying to work things out in terms of sexuality or gender. And do you identify with any kind of, like sub categories or labels, like within the queer or lesbian like community or people? [00:01:30] You know? I know a few people who heard gender queer. Um, I myself would consider myself kind of non conforming, but it's not so much a things that I've like. I when I think about it, it's just too confusing. And so I'm just like, OK, we'll just kind of stick with that General, um, kind of nonconforming thing. Um and you know, like, I know a few [00:02:00] older lesbians that definitely, you know, like they identify as books or, you know, film and things like that. But there's not so much talk about that within my friend group, because I've got most of my friend group is is queer. So it's and a lot of them are lesbians, and a lot of them just identify as lesbian. They kind of don't subcategories it, but yeah, when did you first become aware that you're, um Well, I was probably about [00:02:30] 14 when I realised it myself. Um, and I think that was also kind of around the time when I realised kind of what it meant. Like I went to a Catholic school for 13 years and so kind of That wasn't really a thing that was talked about at all. Um, and I knew I had one friend who he came out as gay when he was 12. And so we It was kind of I made the assumption that gay was a thing that, you [00:03:00] know, boys that, like boys were gay. But, you know, girls that, like girls there it was just it wasn't a thing. And so kind of. I think I kind of came to the realisation when I was about Yeah, like, 14, but wasn't kind of didn't kind of divulge the information to a bit later. So, yeah. Um, did you have, like, a coming out? Um, well, I remember I was the first person I came out to Was one of my friends in high school when I was 16 at the time, And [00:03:30] I had, like, my computer up when we were studying and I had my background on my computer was I think it was a picture of dial because she's amazing. Um and, um, my friend, who's also who at the time identified as bisexual um, she's like, you're so gay. I'm like, Yeah, yeah, I think so. And she's like, What? Are you serious? I'm like, Yes, so and that was quite cool. And then from there, I told, um, my other best friend and [00:04:00] friend, like, a couple of days later because I felt so guilty that I hadn't told her. But I told my other friend, um, but then I didn't really come out to anyone else until I was 18. Um, kind of I was at uni. It was my first year, and I was I was planning to be, like, really open about it at the beginning of the year. But then, um, my friend from my friend from high school, um, she moved down here with me, and we she got [00:04:30] a girlfriend after, like, four days at uni. And, um so and we were because we were in the flats. We were in the main hall, and so she so there was a whole lot of, you know, rumours and discussions and stuff about the lesbians in the flats. And I was like, OK, well, maybe I'm not gonna be open if there's this, like, an out if there's this much kind of gossip about it, Um but I kind of there were a few people that I told probably about halfway through that year. Um, [00:05:00] and I gave my mom a phone call and told her about two months before the end of the year, and I was gonna have to move back home, So she was shocked. It was an interesting phone conversation. She was kind of I told her and she was silent for a while and I was like, I was like, Are you OK? And she's like, she's like, I just need a bit of time to process and you know that stuff And then she's like, I thought, you're gonna tell me you're pregnant and I'm like, Well, there's no chance of that now. And it was not funny. Apparently [00:05:30] so, um, but yeah. So, like, I came out to my mum when I was 18, and then I went home and my sister, I came out to her when I'd gone back home and she was just like, Oh, yeah, I already knew that. I was like, Well, OK, um, so that was all good And she told my dad, which apparently took some because I don't have a great relationship with it, like it's not something that will come up in conversation, But it [00:06:00] was, um I think he like. I don't think it was a huge looking back. I don't think they like for them. Looking back, I don't think it was a huge surprise, like, I've always been very much a tomboy and kind of didn't really grow out of it and never had boyfriends and things like that. And I think it was kind of just, you know, like they just needed a bit of time to process. And both of them are OK with it now, which is nice. It makes things easy. Um, because I've got a lot of friends that whose parents aren't OK with it, and it seems like it'd be [00:06:30] really hard. I probably just wouldn't go back home, so yeah. No, it's How did you go from, um, like, kind of when you when your gay friend came out to you. Um, and you just you didn't know Kind of what what it meant to be like a woman attracted to other woman, but they were kind of, I don't know. I think it was kind of just I think I hadn't really, like, I knew that I'd never liked boys. It was like boys were always friends. And, you know, as soon as I started high school, everyone was trying to set me up with other boys. And I'm like, [00:07:00] no boys are my friends. Like, I've always had friends that were boys, and it was kind of like people actually, like, I'm like we're in high school. Like, What is this? We're 11. Um, and I think it's just like I don't think my friend that came out when he was 12. It wasn't so much like I think it was. It was kind of something already, like a lot of people already kind of knew because they'd been teased about it for ages, and, um, he kind of [00:07:30] just came out and we were all just like, Oh, yeah, no, like, that's cool. Like it wasn't a big deal. Um, but yeah. And like I hadn't really thought about about it or like about just, you know, being attracted to girls as being anything weird. And then it was kind of I don't know how I kind of it wasn't like one day I was like reading, and it was like, Oh, OK, so this is this is what this is. Um it was kind of just, [00:08:00] you know, like I. I think you know, my friends saying, Oh, you're so gay. It was kind of like my like, Oh, yeah, like I. I probably am like, it's not a It wasn't something. I was like, Oh, my God, Am I this like it was kind of just like I'd always I'd never like boys. And then I kind of started liking girls. And it was it wasn't any girls that I knew. It was like celebrities. And so I was like, Oh, everyone does this, but I don't think they did. So it's just yeah, it wasn't [00:08:30] like a long, kind of process of finding out. It was kind of I think it was mostly the my friend being like, Oh, you're so gay and I'm like, Oh yes, I, I Yeah, yeah, I think I have, and kind of from there I was like, Yeah, definitely. So I think, Yeah, it had to be kind of. I mean, previously. I. I kind of when I was 14. It was kind of like I knew I kind of liked girls, but I didn't think of it as kind of weird. I just assumed everyone else did as well as liking boys like it was just Yeah, [00:09:00] whereabouts. Did you grow up? Um, I grew up in Rotorua. So did you experience any kind of like homophobia there? Like like a Catholic school? Or I wasn't I wasn't really out, so it wasn't, uh it wasn't really an issue for me. And I had quite a diverse group of friends in high school, too. Like I was friends with a lot of people who identified as bisexual or as gay. And it was so it was kind of all people that were kind [00:09:30] of open to that. It wasn't, um, so within that it was easy. But it was I also still felt a little bit out of place because I was I felt like I was the only one that only liked girls. So it was. Yeah, it was Still, I still felt kind of on the outside of that group, but I knew that they were accepting of it. Like I. I didn't. Most of them didn't know. A lot of them had assumed. But it was, um Yeah, it was. So I think it was. [00:10:00] There wasn't a lot of experiencing of homophobia because I wasn't I wasn't out. So it was, Yeah. What's it been like? Um, kind of moving to the South Island and starting like university. Um, I love it down here. Um, it's just it's so like, I feel a lot more comfortable being myself and like, I'm not going to be judged because there's such a large student population here. I think everyone's still kind of everyone's wants to express [00:10:30] themselves in in their own way. And so it's kind of there's a large kind of diversity just in general, across people in, like, a lot more, I suppose acceptance like it's it. It feels like people are going to be more accepting of, you know, any kind of queer people. And so it's, you know, like you see lots of different kinds of people walking around So you're like, Oh, yeah, so II I don't think I'm as out of place as I feel sometimes. Like it's, um [00:11:00] it's great. Like I It feels like I feel comfortable being out here, whereas I think, like when I go back home and stuff like my friends from high school now. But I wouldn't kind of kind of share that information with a whole lot of people and be like, Hey, I'm gay like, um, I wouldn't like here. I'm involved in a lot of stuff like I play, um, social soccer with the Purple Passions, who's a lesbian [00:11:30] ally and lesbians and their allies social football team. They've been in existence since, like the the late eighties. Um, So, um, I'm I'm really involved with that. And this year I'm involved with, um, queer support and, like, I don't think I'd be and and, you know, like I play competitive football as well. And so that's like all my teammates there now, and I don't think I'd be quite as comfortable like with being as out as I am here. [00:12:00] If I was still in Rotorua. So yeah, um, do you think it's harder to be, um like out in the South Island? Or is it more of like a small town? This city thing? I think it's a small town verse city thing. Like, I think, like I've got, um, a couple of friends from Invercargill. Um, and it's a bit that I've been there once and it seems very similar to, um like it's still classified as a city, but it's kind of, [00:12:30] um and I think kind of being out there isn't ideal. They've got very kind of set ideas about, um, homosexuality and things like that. So I think it's Yeah, I think it's dependent on kind of the size and kind of the I think the age of the population as well because, you know, here it's a lot of students and things like that. Um, and I feel that kind of our generation is a lot more accepting of kind of queer people because it's [00:13:00] something that's been kind of acknowledged a lot more like as we're growing up and it's so there's not kind of as set ideas about like get is bad kind of thing. So yeah, it's I think it's definitely a size of the city, and you know kind of what the how the population is made up. So, um, is it important to have to, like, kind of be involved with the like stuff that's going on here and be like have a sense of community? [00:13:30] But definitely, definitely. Um, it makes it so much easier to know that there's like to to know that there are other people like me because I think that was part of my problem in high school was that I would I wasn't coming out. I didn't come out because, you know, like I didn't have anyone to identify with. So it's It's definitely great to have a sense of community. And just to be able to talk about like just to be able to talk about like, queer things is great, Like if I mention a movie or something, that that's a queer movie, [00:14:00] it's just like, Oh, yeah, no, I've seen that. It was a great movie kind of thing as opposed to, you know, like within a group of like if I was to talk about it in my football team, they'd be like, what? Like, what is this? So it's, um yeah, it's definitely great to just be able to have to to and to feel. I think there's a feeling of safety as well. You've got, like, a safety net that if you've got any problems or anything, you know people you can go to and they're not going to be judgmental. So do you feel like, [00:14:30] um, like Facebook and social media play a part in our young people, like connecting and building that community? Um, to a degree, I think, like I'm not out on my Facebook, Um, I don't know why. I just I feel like Facebook is quite a judgmental social media, whereas things like, um, there are other kind of social media like things like YouTube and tumbler and stuff. They're all kind of you. There are communities within them that [00:15:00] are queer, and they are accepting of queer. And so it's. I feel like those social media are a lot you know, better for building communities as opposed to things like Facebook, because there's still like if you go on some Facebook pages, it's just and you see, like read comments and stuff. You're just like, what are you talking about? Like, um, and I think there are some websites like, Um, what is this like after Allen and Auto straddle, which, like blogs [00:15:30] and stuff that post well, they're not blogs, but they post like articles and stuff. Um, and it's really good to have. That is a sense of community as well, because it's stuff that's kind of relevant to you as well as being stuff that you'd usually get in like a you know, like a teen magazine or whatever. But it's directed at lesbians. So it's, I think that's really cool, like things like that, um, great for meeting people and building online communities. [00:16:00] It's just depends on the type of social media that it is. What do you think about the way, um, current and Trans people are represented in the media and in in the media in general? Do you mean like movies and stuff or just like all sorts? Um, I think in terms of trends, there's not a lot of, um, stuff it, and I think it's kind of coming like there's there's kind of more now with like, [00:16:30] um, the only movie I can think of trans movie I can think of is, Is it about a boy or boys don't cry. Boys don't cry, which is so, so sad. Um, and um, I think with there's kind of more talk about it now. Especially since, um, Orange is the new black and Laverne Cox, who is amazing. Um, and I think she's been a real good kind of voice and role model for, um, [00:17:00] trans women in particular to kind of, um just to give a voice to trans trans women specifically, Um, so it's, I think it's quite like it. It's It's improving slowly, but it's definitely not as it's definitely not as talked about as it should be. It seems like it's still kind of a taboo kind of subject. Um, in terms of queer, I think it's there's a lot of [00:17:30] television now that's got that it that it's either like queer, centred or have queer characters. Um, but in saying that there are quite often like in terms of lesbians, they're quite they're all very feminine. There's not a lot of like there's not a broad range of representation within a certain label. It's all very, you know, in the stereo. And for gay men, it's always very stereotypically gay men, [00:18:00] um, flamboyant. Um, and so I think like we've got kind of a bit more. We've got more representation now, but it's still the way it's represented. Could could be adjusted to make it more, I want to say accurate or more representative than, um than it than it is. Why do you think it is that, um, that thing kind of, because it's what [00:18:30] men want to see. Um, yeah, it's because it's what men want to see. And it's the same with lesbian porn. It's it's directed at straight men. It's not at all for like, it's great to see on TV to be like, yes, lesbians who, um But at the same time, you're like, Oh, there's no one that looks like me So I think it would be great to kind of have more [00:19:00] variety in the representation of lesbians, but I don't know whether that will be happening any time soon. So what do you think are some of the biggest issues that are facing current train people in New Zealand at the moment? I mean, we just got married quality, but, um, mostly, I think education, like in education, educating young people about just, you know, queer issues And you know what queer is? Um I mean, I don't [00:19:30] know if that's covered in non Catholic schools, but it definitely wasn't covered in, um, my school. Um, but as you know, from what I gather, there's not a lot of education around it, and it's especially in terms of, um, sex Ed. I think that there needs to be a big push for that so that people can so that young gay people can engage in safe sex because that's that's important. Like it's important to be safe and to kind of promote [00:20:00] that, whereas it's just not talked about at all. So, um, where do you think we might be as a country in, like, 10 years time in terms of some of that 10 years, right? Um but yeah, What IIII. I hope there will be more education around it, like I. I feel like that's kind of needs to be the next big push, because I don't want I'm gonna sound really cheesy. But like the Children are our future. [00:20:30] Um, like and we need to kind of. And it is it is something that's becoming like coming out is more acceptable as is seems to be, you know, more acceptable. People are coming out younger. Um, and they need to be kind of aware of how to go about things and how to, you know, how to engage in same sex and, you know, meaningful relationships and just kind of knowing places to, even if [00:21:00] they're not going to explicitly give information in schools to provide, um, young people with places where they can find that information. So hopefully we'll be there. Um, what are your personal, like, hopes for your future? Um, well, I don't know. Like I I'm studying primary teaching. Um, so but I, I want to teach the little little ones, so I don't [00:21:30] know whether I can contribute much to, um, um, like queer education. Um, but it's definitely going to be something that I hopefully will be able to talk openly about, Um, I work in an after school programme at the moment, and I was having a discussion with one of the boys the other day. He's 10. We were discussing, uh, like, I'm not out there, but it's, um, I. I was discussing. We were discussing the Wizard of Oz and which one of us [00:22:00] he's like he's like, I we were having a discussion about who liked The Wizard of Oz more, and he's like I would marry Dorothy. I'm like I would, too. He's like he's like I'm like, you know, it's it's legal now So it's kind of it was kind of nice and we just kind of had a little, um, discussion about it. And it was quite nice to kind of just be able to chat about it without even being him, knowing that I was gay. It was kind of it was It was a natural conversation. I hope to kind of bring that into [00:22:30] my teaching. Hopefully, depending on what kind of school I'm at, Um and I don't know, I kind of want to do a bit of travel. I have huge, huge dreams to go to a camp which is run by auto shadow, which is the website I was talking about earlier. Um, I would love, love, love to do that. So I'd like to Yeah, I'd like to travel over, particularly I'd like to move over to Canada, um, ideally or England and teach. So those are my kind of long [00:23:00] term goals. Um, it's a camp run by where a whole bunch of queer women kind of come together and do activities and interact, and it looks like an awesome time. I have a friend who went while she was over in Canada a couple of years ago and so, so jealous. She said it was amazing. So it's just to kind of meet more people and kind of [00:23:30] participate in activities and things. So if you were to give a message to kind of, um, a young person in a Catholic high school, um, struggling with their sex sexual orientation, what would it be? Um, I would probably say find in, like, if you feel comfortable, talk to your friends about it. Um, because your friends are more than often more often, they're not gonna support you, like if. And if they're [00:24:00] not, they're gonna Well, then you're kind of screwed, but, um but no, like, it's it. II I found on like online communities are really, really helpful. Um, you like, you know, go on YouTube. Go on. Tumblr kind of find communities there where you can make friends. Even if it's a friend that lives in America. You've got someone who you can talk to if you're having problems or you can discuss things about. There's a lot of information [00:24:30] online that you can find if you are questioning and things like that, and I think kind of don't be like, feel forced to do anything, like If you don't want to come out, don't come out if you don't think it's safe you know, just it's kind of like a natural progression type thing. Just be comfortable. Try to be comfortable in yourself first and kind of go from there, um, to finish up. What's your favourite thing about being a young person in New Zealand? [00:25:00] My favourite thing? I don't know. I don't know I. I really like the communities like I like the sense of community with that. I've got a variety of different communities. I suppose so. II. I like, Yeah, I like the communities. They're all very friendly and welcoming and great to be a part of.

IRN: 805
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/south_ellen.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004308
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089602
TITLE: Ellen - South
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Dunedin; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Orange Is the New Black (tv); Rule Foundation; Skype; South (series); Tabby Besley; The O. C. (tv); University of Otago; biphobia; bisexual; coming out; dating; discrimination; employment; family; fetishism; freedom; fun; gender; growing up; homonormativity; identity; invisibility; labels; language; marriage; marriage equality; media; monogamy; parents; parties; questioning; relationships; representation; role model; sexuality; stereotypes; transgender; university; youth
DATE: 9 May 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Dunedin, Dunedin, Otago
CONTEXT: In this podcast Ellen talks about coming out and identifying as bisexual.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How would you describe your identity? Um, I would say bisexual. Yeah. What does that mean to you? I guess that means that, um the people who I've been attracted to, uh, their gender has never really been a thing. An issue, Um, and I'm, you know, interested in entering relationships and being with people from both sex. So I guess that's what it means [00:00:30] to me. Yeah. Do you think the language that we've used to talk about our identities has changed much over time? See, I think that I never really spoke about it very much, Um, when I was growing up, because I kind of I guess I sort of, um, never, never said, like, I am bisexual until this year, actually, um, [00:01:00] despite the fact that I'd had, you know, crushes on people and hooked up with people, like so I guess for me personally, like that language has changed a lot. But I don't think that I ever would have gone out and said that I was straight either. I just kind of didn't use the term. Yeah. Um, when did you first become aware that you are bisexual? Um, I think that the first time that I really knew, like solidly knew, uh, was when I was 16, [00:01:30] I was going out with my first boyfriend, and there was a girl who I'd see at parties and stuff, and we'd like, hook up and things. And it was all that kind of like, you know, girls hooking up at parties, like being a hot thing. But for me, it was something more than that. Um, but I remember, like, the first time I ever felt like it was something that I shouldn't do was then as well, because I remember it was at one party, and she was just like, Why do you keep looking at me? Why do you keep wanting [00:02:00] to do this? And I was just like, I don't know. So I so I kind of shut it down, Um, and then just over the years, like feelings for other women and stuff. But yeah, this year is the first, um, like, sort of relationship with a woman that I've ever had. So, yeah, um, So when you were younger, did you ever talk to people about it, or did you kind of, um after I think mostly [00:02:30] I was I don't know if I'd call it repressing it. I think that I'd say that I didn't I wasn't told that it was an option. I think that was the key. Um, you know, you grow up with the with these, like, you know, I I went out with with guys. Um, [00:03:00] that's not to say that I ever said these feelings that I have for girls are wrong, but I just potentially because I was shut down fairly early in in the piece. Um, I didn't explore them, and I guess because I'm a pretty mono like a serial monogamist, like, I absolutely go from relationship to relationship. And I had two long term relationships. One was five years and one was three years. And so in that time, [00:03:30] there was no, you know, I wasn't having sex outside of those relationships. So again, it wasn't something that I kind of could explore. Um And so I think that was one of the really cool things about moving to New Zealand from Australia is I kind of got out of that space where I just where that was my identity and I was able to be more, I guess myself Yeah. Um, since you wrote, have you kind of had a any kind of, like, coming out? [00:04:00] Or you said you started to like, Look at that label now on yourself as bisexual? Yeah. Yeah. Um, Well, yeah, I suppose, like I told my friends at home, um, with certain friends my parents know, I don't know if they know the kind of extent of it. Um, the my girlfriend actually works with me. So everyone at work knows, or [00:04:30] my flatmates know. So I guess in that way, it's a pretty transparent arrangement. Um, And if someone were to ask me today, like, what's your sexual orientation? I would definitely say bisexual. Whereas last year, I don't know. If I would have said I would have said, Oh, well, I've only ever been with guys. That would have been my answer, I think. Whereas now I can I Yeah. I identify as [00:05:00] that more now. Yeah. Um, have you experienced, um, any biphobia? Um I think that it it was never phobia, I guess again, Like thinking back to sort of my first bisexual experiences. It was much less a phobia, but more this sort of, um I guess feti fetishization. And along with that, [00:05:30] um, it kind of sapped you of your capacity to take it seriously. I think you know, when you hook up, when I you know when I'd hook up with a girl, it was like, Oh, yeah, you know, good. But it wasn't like this could lead to a relationship. That was never the assumption I think of anyone involved. Um, so I guess not bi phobia. I wouldn't say bi phobia, but, [00:06:00] um, a lack of appreciation of the kind of seriousness of it. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's really common. And there seems to be, like, a lot of, like stereotypes about what it means to be bisexual or yeah, like the the bisexuality isn't real. Yeah, but you just confused. Or if you had any things like that, um, just like this year. So Oh, like any sort of confusion about what it is now [00:06:30] or or like other people Kind of telling you that you don't know your self or I guess, also, bisexual people often get, um, while you're having a relationship with a woman. Oh, you must be gay while you're with a with a man you must be straight. Like, I guess, people reading you as that and not seeing your Yeah, and And the idea of it being a phase? Well, I don't know. I suppose I have even questioned that [00:07:00] this year. Um, whether in the future, I want to have more relationships with men, Period. Um, I don't I think that other people actually seem to be much less trying to put me in a box. Weird. Like, II. I kinda wanna know. Like, I wanna know if it's this thing or that thing and and what's gonna happen? Um, whereas [00:07:30] other people just be like, It's, like all good. Like you're happy. Um, but yeah, I don't think that there's been much of them being like you have to choose right now or or identify as a particular thing. Um, my folks were really great about it. I only told them over Skype, but, like, you know, that was again. Now it's just It's as though my girlfriend is a boyfriend. [00:08:00] Yeah, which is cool. What is it like being, um, like out, um, in que at Dunedin and at the university? I think it's good. I mean again, I, I haven't experienced very much negative. Um, talk like, you know, you'll get people saying stuff on the street and stuff sometimes, but it's usually been fairly mild. [00:08:30] Um, and I think that Dunedin like I feel safe here pretty much all the time. Um, the university again, I. I don't I don't know, Because again, I haven't really felt any prejudice, so I haven't felt the need to sort of seek, um, support in that way. Um, which I suppose [00:09:00] speaks for itself, Um, in that I don't feel different this year having a girlfriend. Whereas last year I had a boyfriend. I mean, I moved here last year, and, um, we me and my boyfriend from Australia, we did long distance for a while, and then that didn't work out. And I cannot notice any discernible difference in how people [00:09:30] have treated me knowing that I was in that relationship. Compared to this year when they know that I'm in a relationship with a woman. Yeah. Have you connected to any of the stuff that is going on? Is that something that's important to you to have that sense of community? Um, I think that, like again, it's always been something that's interested me. And that was such like a, um, a clue as well, [00:10:00] you know, back home in Australia, Like going to the the gay bar in my city and also, you know, talking to lesbian friends and stuff like that. I think that I was always more interested in that than just the average straight person would have been, Um and so that's been actually really cool. Like going to some of the, um, queer parties at toast and stuff. Um, but I'm the [00:10:30] only reason I kind of go along to those or know about them really is because of my girlfriend. So I go with her. Yeah, but, um, that's all been really good. How did you guys meet? We met at work. Um, so I reckon it was about, like, October I last year that we first started kind of, you know, vibing around the office. And, um, then [00:11:00] it was the work Christmas party. And we Yeah, um, got drunk and hooked up pretty standard. Um, and then, yeah, we we started properly, like dating, dating, like, exclusively dating. Um, at the start of february. Yeah. Um, how do you feel about the way queer and Trans people are represented in media. [00:11:30] Not good. I don't think Well, I suppose for me, one of the things that I've been feeling especially this year is that in the media it's like, not even visible or if it is visible, it's so stereotypical that if these are the role models that young people are identifying with [00:12:00] and learning, you know, these are the potential me in the future. You get an idea about who you can be from, you know, film, television, books, whatever. And, um, I I was just I swear it. It feels like, you know, you've been like you've been taking the Kool Aid and it's like, this is the way that the world is. And if you're not showing those other options, I think that it can be hard. [00:12:30] Well, it was hard for me to to actually come out and say, Oh, you can also be with women, Um, and so I I wish and I actually I think it is getting better now. I don't watch a lot of like current TV, but I try and, like I read a few like feminist blogs and stuff like that and there's it seems to be more of something, you know, say it shows like orange is the new black having an actual Trans woman on there? That's mean, [00:13:00] um and also, you know, some lesbian relationships and stuff like that. So I guess I would say that I think it's getting better. It probably still has, like, a heck of a way to go. But compared to what it was like, you know, growing up as a kid in the nineties two thousands, I reckon it's better. Yeah. Do you ever see, um, characters or storylines that you can, um, relate to or that reflect your identity? [00:13:30] I can't remember any really from when I was growing up, I guess when I was a teen, the only lesbian relationship that I can remember from like popular media was bloody Marissa on the OC, and that was much that was, I think, very much one of those fetish eyes to like, Look at her. She's kissing a girl sort of arrangements rather than her taking it seriously as a relationship. [00:14:00] Um, I guess now it would be orange is the new black, which is good. Good show, Um, but yeah, apart from that, I don't know. How do you feel about the quality bill that passed last year? Really good. Really good. Jealous of you guys? Um we had it in my home state in Australia for like, a week or something, and then got anyway, um, I think it's excellent, and [00:14:30] I don't know, I. I guess I wasn't out in New Zealand before, so I can't speak to the sort of different feeling that that brings, but it makes me very happy to see same sex couples being able to get married. And it opens up that future in such a such a big way. Because again, [00:15:00] like getting married is such an ingrained part of the culture that I grew up with. Like my parents are married. Most of the parents that I know are married. Um, now my peers are starting to get married, which is scary. Um, and it's not as though I'm I've ever been one of those wedding people. I don't really You know, I never planned my wedding much, but I think being able [00:15:30] to join in in that cultural institution is a human right and really cool that New Zealand is on the right side of history on that one. Um, what do you think are some of the most important issues still facing current transfer for New Zealand for for trans people? I think that it's I. I would say that I can identify more discrimination against trans people than gay people. [00:16:00] I don't know. I only know one trans man in New Zealand. So again, he's really my only in, um to that. But like he's faced a lot of, um, a lot of difficulty in transitioning. And, um, I suppose, because maybe it's harder for people to understand being transsexual [00:16:30] ver being gay. Um, or it's just not as, Or maybe it's because it's more visible. I'm not sure, Um, again, there's a part of me that feels like I can't speak to this question because I am like, I'm only recently out as bisexual and it's been a positive experience across the board. [00:17:00] Um I mean, I know back home some of my friends that came out really struggled with that in the social environment that I was in. Um, but yeah, I don't I don't know how to answer that any better. Sorry. It's all good Where do you, um, think or hope we might be In 10 years, I'd like to see just more [00:17:30] representation of queer and trans people in everyday life. I mean, in in politics, in business, in the university. And it not be something that's not spoken about because I think that it's really important for young people to have those people that they can identify with, um as having a lifestyle that they might want [00:18:00] to have. Um and yeah, I guess you guys already have marriage equality, which is like, a big step. I don't know. I don't know if that means, you know, that's obviously not, like, tick down next sort of a thing. Um, there's still gonna be discrimination. Um, but yeah, I guess just more people [00:18:30] owning it and providing those role models for other people to feel good and normal. Yeah. Um, if you could give a message to, um, again, bisexual girl who's kind of struggling to to come out or have that taken seriously, what would it be? Um, I don't wanna, uh, see for me. Honestly, I think I was moving away [00:19:00] from my hometown. I actually think that's what it was. like getting, but, uh, but again, you can find that freedom in the town where you grew up. Um, I guess it would just be to acknowledge that as a as a bisexual girl, the other option is awesome. Like, it's really cool being with [00:19:30] a woman. And, um, take your time, I think, in finding that out. Maybe, like it's you know, it's not a race. I'm I guess pretty pretty late in the game when it comes to, you know, starting all of this stuff off. Um, but at the same time, as much as there are certain differences in dating and being with a woman and being [00:20:00] with a man, it's also just so similar it is just the same, but they're just a different sex. And so I guess I'd say, just if you like, someone just go for it and hopefully they like you back. Yeah. Um, And to finish off, what's your favourite thing about being, um, a young, queer, bisexual person in New Zealand? [00:20:30] Um, I think that there is a lot of, like, sexual freedom that comes with being bisexual. That's fun. You get to have it all. You know, like, um and I think in New Zealand, it's that you can. I mean, there are so many countries in the world where [00:21:00] we couldn't be having this discussion. And, um, I appreciate that, like so much, you know, I think that that's a wonderful fact about being a New Zealander. Um, is that you do have the freedom to love who you want to and be who you want to.

IRN: 804
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/south_jennifer.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004307
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089601
TITLE: Jennifer - South
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Dunedin; Grey's Anatomy (tv); Invercargill; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Out in the Square (Wellington); Queer Attitude; Rainbow Youth; Rally for Marriage Equality; Rule Foundation; School's Out (Wellington); South (series); Tabby Besley; The Fosters (tv); UniQ (Otago); bisexual; coming out; community; dance; diversity; education; femme; friends; health; health system; homophobia; identity; internet; isolation; language; lesbian; marriage; marriage equality; media; mental health; normalisation; parents; public affection; public display of affection (PDA); queer; relationships; religion; representation; rural; school; social media; social networking; stereotypes; transgender; university; youth
DATE: 9 May 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Dunedin, Dunedin, Otago
CONTEXT: In this podcast Jennifer talks about growing up and feeling isolated, making connections via the internet and educating medical students from a rainbow perspective.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How would you describe your identity? Um, I identify as a lesbian. Yeah. Cool. Um, do you would you see yourself looking into any kind of like stereotypes or like, labels within the lesbian community? I suppose they have all sort of sub categories, or sort of so feminine. Probably a feminine lesbian. Yeah, but it's not really like anything. I particularly identify so strongly with that. I need to feel I need to stick with it. Anything. [00:00:30] Do you think the language that we used to talk about, um, orientation and gender has changed much over the time? Yeah, I think it has. I think I think it's and for me, for me when I first sort of sort of discovered stuff about the LGBT community and stuff instead of learning more and more about their diversity in it. Um, and people who have got more and more confident using different terms of like identifying themselves as something that they feel [00:01:00] comfortable with rather than trying to force themselves into a label that already existed. And I think hopefully that'll just keep continuing. So identify as a lesbian, which is kind of like a sort of older label, but um, I recognise that there are a lot of people who don't who wouldn't really fit that category, but they kind of would. And so, yeah, And when did you first become aware of your sexual orientation? Um, when I was 14, I was [00:01:30] at a dancing class, and I for some reason, that night I just kind of clicked and I was like, Oh, my God and I and I cried. I was really upset. Um, and my mom had no idea it was all wrong. And I said, Oh, I think I'm gay. And she was like, she was like, OK, so don't worry. And then the next day, I was absolutely horrified that I said anything to anyone because I texted my best friend as well and said, Don't talk to me about it and didn't really deal with it till I was, like, 16. 17 didn't start actually, actively being [00:02:00] like, Oh, this is something I can't actually ignore anymore. Yeah, What do you think happened that night when you first kind of I actually can't quite remember what it was that set me off. I suspect it was like, I don't know. No, I actually I can't quite remember what happened. That that made me, um that made me like I just remember I was like, 00, no. And it was really quick. And I was really scared, I think was the main thing, because before that, I had never identified with the LGBT [00:02:30] community. I knew of the LGBT community and stuff. I wasn't totally unaware. And I knew I knew some of the language and stuff like that. I think it would have been more confusing if I didn't know any of that. But I never done to with them. So I was like, Oh, no. Yeah. Um, had it been something you've been like thinking about at all previously that you been, like, questioning? No, no, no, no. I literally like at one go. And I was like, I just had it never occurred to me before. [00:03:00] Yeah, that that and then looking back further, I can see that it made sense. Like it if it was always, like, just everything was already there, but it just never clicked. What? Um, messages. Do you remember or like What did you know? I didn't know very much. I didn't know very much I remember I went to quite a liberal school, like so everyone was. It was a, like, pretty reasonably well off school and stuff. And everyone was Yeah. [00:03:30] So I didn't know a lot about the community, but I didn't like I had heard bad things about it. I just knew it was kind of different. And I think that was the main bit that scared me is I didn't really want to be different because, you know, you don't really want to be different at 14 at all, if you can avoid it. Yeah. Um, so after you told your mum and your friend, then you said you don't really kind of acknowledge it again for a few years. What happened? Kind of in that period. I just think I just try not to think about it too much. And I just didn't put much like time into it. I think [00:04:00] I, I just don't really remember thinking about it a lot through, like Year 11 and stuff, but But during that year, actually, though, I had a huge crush on a girl who was two years older than me. And I didn't even but I didn't recognise it. as a crush either. I just thought I just thought she was a really, really cool person and stuff. And then like when I started clicking the next year, I was like, Oh, that's what that was. And it made a lot more sense to me. Um, but no, I didn't really think about it for 11, and I managed to do quite successfully ignore it, and then I could. Then it got to year 12, and I was like, No, [00:04:30] it was I couldn't really anymore. What was happening there. Um, I went to a party with my friend and I realised I would rather her than any other, any other guys in the room. And I was like, then that that made me quite upset again. But then I was like, OK, I have to start to I don't know. I feel like I felt kind of alone. I think because I have to start trying to connect because it's really important to me is to not feel isolated. How have you connected? Um, the first [00:05:00] thing I did was I joined a website called, um queer attitude. Um, which is kind of I think I think it might be UK based, but it has a lot of American Americans on. It had some New Zealanders and Australians on it too, and it was just like a It's quite a youth based one. It had lots of talking about lots of different things I never thought about and coming out and all that sort of stuff. So that was quite nice to have and it's quite well moderated website. So it's quite a safe space. It still is quite a safe space because it's really well looked after [00:05:30] and you have to go to quite a lot of effort to be properly included into it. So people who like, want to troll or whatever just can't really um and so yeah, I I was on that website for probably a year and a bit, and that really helped me a lot, at least feel connected and stuff. So the Internet became really important to me because that was mainly how I connected for quite a long time. Um and I even later I when I started trying to, I went to a couple of the youth groups. There was a school, a group called Schools Out in Wellington [00:06:00] and I went to a couple of them. But it was quite hard for me to do, like time wise, because I was quite busy. Um, and also, I just still feel like I didn't really click with anyone. So I was, like, so sort of reliant on having that connection through the Internet and any media I could find And all that sort of stuff was probably what was the main bit through high school. Yeah. Yeah. Um, what was it like, kind of transitioning to university? Um, it was better. It was much better. Um, I [00:06:30] came out at the sort of I came out, started coming out as, like, bisexual at the beginning of year 12. Because that's kind of how I began to identify myself because I sort of think I was comfortable with the like with thinking about anything more beyond that. That is a concept. Um, but I sort of started and I started identifying as a lesbian by the end of that year, and I came out as a lesbian at the beginning of year 13 and which was pretty good, like, really, really, really terrifying for me. I remember being absolutely, [00:07:00] absolutely really terrifying. Um, but people were really great Generally, um and so, um and so that was fine. So when I came to university, I made sure within about two or three weeks of meeting everybody, I'd come out. I came out to sort of the friends I'd made, and that was so it was all it was just always there. So it didn't become a thing. I was keeping a secret because secrets aren't very fun to keep. And I made sure I connected with uni really, really early on. Um, so that was really cool for me [00:07:30] to meet some people and to like, I don't know you. So you have to actively try and be a member of the community. Um, it it always require effort. I think I don't know if that will ever quite go away. It's You always have to kind of actively be part of the community and actively make an effort to go to things and to try and meet people and to talk to them and stuff, which is yeah, which is hard, totally worth it. But but hard and stuff. I found that especially hard. First year last year. I got last year. It got a lot easier because I made some friends and stuff and and I had more people to go to things [00:08:00] with. First year, I didn't really have to go to any of the events with which was so sometimes I go by myself, which was a bit hard. Yeah. Um, why is it so important to you to connect and be part of that community? Um, I don't I don't really like feeling isolated. I think Start feeling like your worldview is weird or that you I know that something's wrong. I think that's where some feeling like something's wrong, can come from is when you're surrounded by people who don't think at all like you do or don't understand the sort of community and culture you [00:08:30] really ident identify with because you identify with, like your, because there's all like racial culture and all that sort of stuff and, you know, being part of being a student and all that sort of stuff, and you can fit with those. But, you know, with people dating and people liking this person, this person, if you're not, if you don't get to connect with anyone, it can feel really lonely, and and that can be, really that's really hard. So it's really important to me to make my to make sure I feel like I'm normal, because I am. So, um, have you experienced [00:09:00] any, like, homophobia at, um, school or university? Um, there, um, there wasn't too much at my high school, actually, um, people are generally pretty, pretty amazing, which is pretty good, because it still quite a big problem in New Zealand high schools generally, and depending on where you are, it gets progressively worse. Um, so my friends were all really great. Um, and I felt really [00:09:30] they made me feel quite safe, actually, because I knew if anyone had said anything to me that they would have, they would have a go at them. And in my high school, it was quite, um, the people who are homophobic were the ones who got teased. It wasn't It wasn't the people who are gay. Um, because I remember by the time you were 13, I remember there was a guy and he was a bit I think, I don't know. He must have said something to someone and stuff. And they were just teasing him for for, you know, being of gay people. What's wrong with you sort of thing, which, which is quite funny. Um, and I do [00:10:00] remember there was a, um there's a guy at my school who came out to one of his best friends towards the end of year 13 or something like that. And she basically she came from a really religious background. I don't think I realised how religious she was religious, of a background she was from. And she ended up inviting him over to her house. And her parents, like, spent, like, two hours like leur in him on how it was sin and all this crap and stuff, which was probably quite traumatising [00:10:30] for him. Um, but but people stopped talking to her after that because it was in the church. I think their church members actually kicked them after that. And they moved to Australia. But But it didn't. It didn't go down well after all, but there were people around. I did manage to avoid them quite quite well. Um and I had at first year uni there was a guy who hung out with my friend group who was he would sometimes say stuff that was in appropriate, but But by that time I was kind of confident enough to be like, [00:11:00] No, I don't like I don't want to hear that And it's that's quite offensive thing to say to me. And he did Eventually. He did actually end up apologising to me for for that. But in a way, I think it's maybe he came from, um up in Auckland and from like, sort of one of the more posh schools in Auckland. And I think he maybe thought it was his right to sort of say some of the inappropriate stuff. He said to me, um, and realised that sometimes people aren't quite as receptive as he thought that they might be. Um, yeah, mainly [00:11:30] It's mainly it's pretty good. I think it's just sort of the underlying not direct homophobia, but like people but feeling sort of quite out of place or feeling that you can't be affectionate with, um, like someone you're with in public because you still get staring in the stuff. And I had, um quite a bad incident a few weeks ago, and, um, timber and doctor, um, where I started kissing them while I was, um, the girl I was with. And, um, I just we just got, like, the worst [00:12:00] reaction from everyone around us. It was awful. And people, the guy came up to us, said some really inappropriate things and stuff. And I told him to go away and people started taking photos and video, which which was really, really awful when we had to leave. Um, and it was just so incredibly uncomfortable. Um, that's probably the worst thing that's happened, because usually it's usually I go to a queer event, and that would be where I was with someone. And it's a safe. It's such a safe space. The only people who are going to interrupt you are going to be gay. Guys swing. You look adorable, which is hilarious [00:12:30] rather than awful. So, yeah, have you noticed a change like moving from Wellington to Dunedin? Do you think it's like, harder in the South Island for people to be kind of out as clear? Or I think it is. I think I think it is overall, Um, not so bad in Dunedin. I don't think it's terrible. I mean, it's such a huge student population. Younger people generally are a lot better, like they don't really. Most younger people don't really have a big problem with [00:13:00] it, or if they do, they know it's not appropriate for them to say It's just when people get drunk like guys get drunk and they don't think they don't think about what they're doing. Um, I don't think, um and yeah, but there's definitely people who come from sort of more of the Deep South or um, yeah, more rural areas find it a lot harder. I think it's definitely more isolating being there. And, um, there's a lot more of the whole stereotypes and all that sort of stuff, and, um, just a lot more homophobia [00:13:30] around like and it can be quite dangerous. I think in some places it would be quite dangerous. I've heard quite bad things about Invercargill and how unsafe people feel there. Um, which is really sad, Um, so it's definitely better here, like in Dunedin than it is there, Um, and it's in Wellington. It's pretty. It's pretty good, too good, so I don't know if you have a there's less places to go in Dunedin. I think there's less less spaces that just, like exist all the time. Um, whereas in Wellington, because there's, um, more people [00:14:00] they have, like gay bars like Gay Bar that's open every night and stuff so you can always have somewhere to go. They had one really briefly in Dunedin, but it didn't last long. And what do you think about the way Chinese people are represented in the media? Um, and media meaning like news books, movies, television shows, all sorts? Um, I think it's got a lot better, but there's a long way to go. I think queer and Trans people are like seriously underrepresented [00:14:30] for the amount of people that are queer and trans. And there's a There's a serious, like difference in in the number of people that you actually see in the media. So, like I watch a lot of queer media and I cause I hunt it out because it's really important to me to see that and stuff. And I really enjoy seeing shows that, especially ones that do it really well, um, but you have to find it. You have to go find it, and it should just be there a lot of the time and people always make arguments about their. You know, you can't have this many gay people on a TV show, and you're like, Well, this many gay people around us like [00:15:00] who's to say what's right and wrong? Um and yeah, so I think there's underrepresentation. There's also some of that stereotyping that that needs to be broken down more and more, Um, like TV shows like The Fosters, um, which have, um, the two lesbian mothers and stuff. But it's it's not a show about them being two lesbian. That's not the show. And they're both fantastic characters and themselves, and it's about their family. It's not about they're not stereotyped [00:15:30] people at all. Um, not on that show, stereotyped. So it's It's quite a refreshing to watch something, and it's just part of living. Rather than being like this focus about all the like, defining feature of someone's character, like that's where it gets really like you get really over it like the one thing that's about them. They're like that lesbian character or that that gay guy like and that's you know, that's not how people feel. Um, they don't feel like that's the defining aspect. I mean it is. It is partially [00:16:00] it can be partially what defines people, and it can be an important part of their identity. But it's not the one thing. And so media is terrible at doing that at the moment. There's very little little media that does a really good job of it. So I think, yeah, and also, um, and Trans people are just terribly like uselessly represented in the media and some really, really negative stereotypes and stuff. So they're they're doing even worse than everyone else. Which is such a shame because there's so so many misunderstandings about trans people and [00:16:30] and stuff. And like I make an effort, I'm a medical student. So I make an effort to educate myself on on sort of health issues as well as is just just LGBT community as a whole. Um, interests me a lot, Um, and so I spent time educating myself on trans issues, but people just like, But I don't know everything there is to know. I only know what I've taught myself and stuff, and I don't have that experience as well. So yeah, it's really hard, and it's also really hard when you don't get to see yourself [00:17:00] in the media because again, the isolation thing. Have there been any, um, characters or storylines that you have been, have reflected your identity or that can relate to? I really, like on Grey's Anatomy I really like, because it's because it's sort of just the medical side of things. And it is, um, like Car Kelly in Arizona, Um, on on that show have been really good because it's such a consistent relationship and it is a proper thing. And they the storylines are advanced beyond the fact that there are two women. [00:17:30] Um, and they, you know, they're having. They have the ups and downs, and they have their own storylines and their own lives and their different, very different characters. But I really like, like seeing that in the context of the fact that I'm going to be a doctor and, um yeah, but that's I probably probably the most identify with them. Yeah, cool. Um, what do you think about the marriage equality bill that passed last year? I think it was cool. I went to the march in Wellington, which was really fun, um, with a couple of friends [00:18:00] and I listen to listen to everyone speak and stuff, and it was really cool. And, um, it was quite nice with, like, the people signing the petition. And, um, I helped it out on the square, which is the event in, um, Civic Square in Wellington. Like a fair. Um, and that was they had the petition there and stuff. So Well, that was just before it was, like, some just before it started getting going through and getting signed and that sort of stuff. Um, so that was really that was really cool. To be like, [00:18:30] Yeah, quite active and, um, sort of being part of stuff then, um, and the people who did the work to get the petition going, all that sort of stuff are amazing. Um, and it was quite cool because my parents that year, my parents came to see my parents, brought my brother and came to see me at the fair and stuff, and it's really important to me that my parents sort of understand who I am, and it's not going away. And that sort of stuff, I think that was one of the things they might have thought when I first came out to them. Um, because it was uncomfortable. And it was also totally unexpected, which [00:19:00] I recognised that they weren't going to be like, OK, all of a sudden. But they came and they both signed the petition and stuff. And that made me feel really happy because, you see, they were really supporting me, and they were, Yeah, so that was really cool. I think I think it was I think it was amazing and all the speeches and stuff were great. And it was really cool to see to to have conversations with people being being like, Why is this only happening now? What's you know what's wrong? It's, You know, this just happened days ago. I don't see why people are arguing against this. It's so stupid. So all the support was quite cool, Just especially [00:19:30] when, like my friends and sort of people out age is really good. Yeah. Did you celebrate when it passed I? I kind of did. I was at an audition for a like, um for something, so I didn't really get to do it properly. But I did jump up and down a few times. That was that was my mum texted me when it passed because she was watching. Yeah. Um, is it something that you like? Think you might want to do one day? Yeah. Yeah, it was always something I think I wanted to do. Um, [00:20:00] it's a school that Yeah, it always made me a bit sad. It wasn't It wasn't actually legal depressing, but, um, it's nice. It's nice. It does. I think it is really important for whether people think marriage is something that they want to do or not is to make sure that everyone has the opportunity to make the decision for themselves rather than have it made for them just because it's because some people decided it wasn't OK, so we've got marriage equality. But what do you think are some of the other issues that are facing people in New Zealand at the moment? [00:20:30] Um well, I as someone who's working in the health profession, um, I just started a, um, initiative to try and get some proper LGBT specific education to me into medical school because actually, I during the summer, I was kind of wondering what we get taught because I'm only in third year this year and I Um, and I saw an email and found out that we really I think we only get, like, an hour long thing just kind of like [00:21:00] into where we panel I don't know. It's not a very comprehensive hour. Um, it's I think it's inducing people to the idea of coming out. I think that's all. But I think that's all that's all we get. And as health professionals, I mean, we interact with the LGBT community all the time through all the different disciplines. And there's some definitely some at least some etiquette things that if people that if, um health professionals learn, then they can build better doctor patient relationships with, um, with Korean Trans people. Um, when [00:21:30] they're off, they are incredibly vulnerable. The health is the health problems, Um, in the community are pretty shocking, like smoking rates and all this stuff. There's a lot of really specific things, and we just don't get taught it. And it makes. And so just last night I put up a Facebook page. Um, so we've already got more than 70 members. Um, so there's a lot of support among the medical students and stuff, so people have been talking to me about it. Um, so I just I think it's gonna be my That's my project for the next couple of years is changing that. [00:22:00] That's one of the most important things for me. I think is, if people are treated well in the health system and supported and especially with, um, a lot of like mental health issues and that sort of stuff, they're supportive of that, then they do better overall, Um, because, yeah, doctors, often people who end up people end up having the interaction with Yeah, cool. That's such an awesome project. Where do you think we'll be in, like, say, 10 years time? In terms of that and other [00:22:30] other issues? Um, I hope things just kind of keep going the way they are now in terms of, um, becoming more normalised as such. I don't know, um, where people just understand it is another just another sort of a kind of identity here. So, um and that people are the way that they are and sort of in learning to accept people how they for for how they are. And hopefully that change that's happened sort of in the more sort of central and, [00:23:00] um, more populated areas can move out to to the more rural areas. And I think it will, um, as younger people start growing up, um, that's just it's gonna be a time thing. So in 10 years, I'm hoping people will be even more accepting than they are now and that, um there will be more, like continue to be more resources and more support and stuff. Um, for for people who are going through all the different aspects of, um that people can struggle with without being, um, queer. [00:23:30] Trans. I hope that, um, uh, health system for especially that Trans people have to go through will get a lot better. And I'm hoping that part of what I'm doing is hope, hopefully can help. At least start to see some of that off is getting a general understanding because the cool thing about doing it in medical school, this means that every doctor who comes through will get the education. That and then if everyone gets a sort of standard of education, then the overall standard in the medical [00:24:00] community will will go up. Um, yeah. And there's a similar um group at Auckland who just said the same idea pretty much at the same time as me, um, who are doing doing that as well and which is really exciting because it's the two medical schools. So that's all. That's all the New Zealand doctors, Um, so that that's really exciting. Yeah. Um, if you could give a message to, um, a young person struggling with their identity at the moment and like, [00:24:30] coming out Or maybe even like someone, um, trying to like a young trans person trying to get the health care they need but not getting much help, what would What would you say? Um, in terms of people, just trying to figure themselves out is to Is it that time? Time is OK and it's not OK, it's OK. It's totally cool to feel out of place and to feel like that's That's fine. It's totally normal and that there's nothing wrong with you. Um, and there's nothing wrong with not knowing exactly where you fit as well. [00:25:00] Um, because figuring out where you fit takes time and, um, and there's no need to put a label or anything or do anything before you're ready. Um, and you know, just slowly find out. Find out those people who can support you, whether it is online or it's a friend or a family member. Um, and and but just wait, you know, don't need to rush anything. There's no there's no rush on figuring yourself out because a lot of people don't figure themselves out for a very long time. [00:25:30] And you're allowed to change your mind on how you feel and everything, because there's nothing wrong with that either, Um, and people who are looking for good health careers that you get to pick your doctor. Um, and if doctors are not treating you well, um, and or you don't feel like they're listening to you find another one because there are more doctors, um, and that you know, that is totally your right to be to be treated with respect, um, and to feel comfortable with your doctor, you know, And I know that's [00:26:00] a lot harder for people in more rural areas. Um, we are looking for So that might be quite good to look for support from some of the, um, the groups like Rainbow Youth and all that sort of stuff and talk to them about how you could find some better support. But yeah, that you that especially if you live in somewhere like Dunedin. There are a lot of doctors in Dunedin, and if one makes you feel uncomfortable or one's not doing what you what you need to be have. What you need is that there are there are more doctors out there and there are great doctors out there and that you you have the right to go and find them and to [00:26:30] to not go back to the doctor that you feel making you uncomfortable, Um, and to finish up what's your favourite thing about being a young person? Then sat up and talk to New Zealand? Um, I really like the the community and stuff. I think it's a really It's a really fun, diverse, vibrant community, and it's also made me a better person being part of it. It's opened my eyes to how different people can be and accepting other people. It's made me a more accepting [00:27:00] person, and I think that's really cool. Um, it's yeah, is that it's on the whole, it's made me a better person and being part of the community, which is great.

IRN: 802
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/south_oliver.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004306
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089600
TITLE: Oliver - South
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Dunedin; FtM; North Shore; Rule Foundation; South (series); SouthTrans NZ (Dunedin); Tabby Besley; UniQ (Otago); United Kingdom; abuse; addiction; ageing; bullying; butch; children; coming out; community; elder issues; facebook. com; family; femme; friends; gender identity; grandchildren; health; health system; homophobic bullying; hui; identity; internet; media; parents; passing; queer; representation; rural; school; social media; social networking; support; transgender; transphobia; tumblr. com; vegetarianism; visibility; women; youth
DATE: 9 May 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Dunedin, Dunedin, Otago
CONTEXT: In this podcast Oliver talks about being a queer trans-man in Dunedin.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um how would you describe your identity? Um, I'm a queer trans man to set the language that we've used to talk about, uh, identities in relation to sex orientation and gender has changed. But of course it has. Um, I have frequent discussions with the older people in the community. Who, um I don't know what I'm talking about or think that I must be being offensive [00:00:30] by using words like queer and my mom in particular. You know, she she helped me off using the word queer to identify myself and my friend. She's like, No, you can't use words like that. I know it. It's just you can't do it. I put it about myself and my friend. She's like, Mama, what does that mean to you? Oh, well, for me, it just, um it means a sexual and gender identity which, uh, is maybe not the norm. So, um, if your [00:01:00] trans are not or if you're, um, gender queer and not sis, or if you're bisexual or gay or transsexual or something else and then there's, like, identities that may or may not be concluded depending if they want to be like a people and stuff or intersex people. Sometimes they want to be queer, and sometimes they don't. Cool. Um, when did you first start discovering your sexual orientation or [00:01:30] gender was different? So I, um I knew I was queer since I was about 13. So, um, felt horribly in love with a girl when I was 13. But I only figured out I'd gone horrible in love when she left to, um, to to move to a different city. So that was kind of miss timed. Um, I didn't. It took me a lot longer to figure out I was Trans. I didn't really figure that out until I was, um 23. Um, [00:02:00] what were both of those, like experiences? Kind of like for you? Um, yeah. In terms of not not particularly a angsty at all. It was just like, uh, I think the best way to describe me coming out was I was just like, Oh, I like this girl, I guess I. I guess that means I must be a lesbian. Oh, well, what kind of so did you come out kind of publicly? Yeah. I mean, um, [00:02:30] I came out publicly, but I think everyone kind of wasn't particularly surprised. I wasn't. Um no, I wasn't friends with anyone that would have for any differently about it. For if you're slightly weird to start with, you're probably not going to be friends with highly conservative people that might judge you for that kind of thing. Same for coming out as Trans. Um, yeah, I guess. More of an interesting thought that came to my head when I finally figured out. I was like, Why the fuck did it [00:03:00] take me so long to figure this out? Why did I have to wait until I was 23? Um, sure. Certainly. Lots of the signs were there for a lot longer, but it takes a while for this kind of thing to click. And again, you know, if you're hanging around with lots of queer and liberal and, um, people. Anyway, then, um, they're probably not going to judge you too harshly for being trans as well, even if you know, they don't really know what that means or anything. And did [00:03:30] you get when you first came out as queer? Um, did you get any kind of homophobia for that? Um, it's hard to tell. I mean, I was a, uh, a comprehensive high school in rural England. Um, and to be honest, I was getting quite a lot of abuse, just intensive bullying anyway, um, and that continued, but I couldn't say if that was because I was queer on it was about the same level. So I was I don't think it was particular building because I was queer. I was just [00:04:00] because I was me and yeah, I I'm not sure if it was anything to do with my sexuality or gender identity. Um, So what was your journey to figuring out that you were trans like, um, I was, um, dating a girl at the time who had, um, had a few friends that were Trans guys and had been, um her best friends had been, [00:04:30] uh, been a trans guy at high school. And so she she knew quite a lot about it, and she was quite, um, quite good at making me feel OK about things. And, um and that helped a lot. So is it some something she kind of saw in you before you herself or I? I don't I don't I don't I don't think she she knew anything until I told her. But she made me that When I when we talked about things, she made me feel like [00:05:00] comfortable talking about things and working things out. Um, she, um, has since stated a few, um, a few trans guys pre transition. And she makes the joke that this keeps on happening, and she's not sure exactly why, but quite a lot of the people that she's dated have transitioned after she's finished dating them. So, um, what messages or things Do you remember? Um, hearing about being [00:05:30] cool train from society, Like as you were growing up or yeah, even up until you realised that you were Trans. Um, my parents were quite, uh, quite liberal. So they were fine with whether I was, um, queer or straight. Um, I guess the only thing that they were worried about is that my mom, you know, she was like, Oh, yeah, no, that's fine. If you're a lesbian, you're still going to give me grandkids, right? It is pretty much her approach as long as she gets grandkids out of it. [00:06:00] So I think she was slightly more disappointed about the trends. Mainly not because of the gender stuff. But because of the grandkids, I'm one of four Children, so I'm sure someone else can provide, um, in terms of society, um, queer turn stuff is quite can be quite judged quite harshly in some parts of society. But I tend to forget that most of the time, because I tend to live in this little bubble of which it's considered normal. And I forget [00:06:30] about it until, you know, I end up somewhere, and then I'm like, Oh, yeah, yeah, this stuff, Um, I guess it's like a big vegetarian. The other day I went to I went to my friend's parents' house and like, Oh, is there anything you don't eat? And I, you know, I eat everything. And then when my friend turns around to me and be like you're a vegetarian, I'm like, Oh, yeah, But I guess if something's not considered weird among many of the people you hang out with, then it's not until [00:07:00] you do go go somewhere else and then quite harshly reminded, or you talk to your friends that come from a A quite a different background. And, yeah, I've certainly got a lot of friends that have had a a good deal, Much harder time of it than I have. Um, in terms of street harassment and stuff, I, um I've never had too much of a problem. Um, probably know more as [00:07:30] as a woman, Probably less than the average woman. Uh, because I, I think I think if you're butch looking, people tend to perhaps you a good deal less than if you're if you're firm looking and then more recently, um, just Yeah, it's quite strange. You see, a group of like, drunk guys walking towards you, and you might feel slight nervous, but they more likely to just be like, Hey, you got a spare beer or come with us and then you're like, interesting. That's not what I was expecting at all. Is it important to you to have that kind [00:08:00] of, like sense of community and belonging to this group? Yeah, Well, um, I don't know. It's it's It's always nice to have a community around you, and I don't I think in Dunedin there's not so much a community as to, um, lots of different communities are on top of each other, some overlapping to different extents to each other. you know. So there will be a community of, um, you know, there might be this this one queer woman community [00:08:30] or another queer women community and then a sports one and a circus one or a gay man, one or, you know, or they all overlap to different extents. And some of them I have been a part of, and some of them I haven't. Um, So whilst I know a lot of queer people I've never been a part of, um, like most of, like, I was never really part of the lesbian community in even though I knew a lot of of of lesbians [00:09:00] and queer women. Um, so, yeah, I don't know what kind of support or, um, opportunities for community are full and trans people in, um, there is a group called which I will speak very highly of which is this group of people to get that get together once a month and talk about stuff That's pretty cool. Um, but mainly it's just sort of, uh, people finding [00:09:30] each other through people who know people and bumping into each other. Um, you can feel before I came out as Trans I knew, uh very few Trans people. They think, Um, but there's actually quite a lot of people around. And then as soon as you're out as queer or Trans, suddenly everyone starts popping up from everywhere, and you realise that, you know, in even just in Dunedin, [00:10:00] I know sort of 2030 trans people. And then, you know, if you think about the people I know in other cities and stuff, the number grows as well. So there's actually loads of people here. It's just until you out yourself, you don't tend to to know people the same thing with being queer. Um, I think as someone who has been outwardly queer for a long, long time, it's always been, I guess it's the whole sort of queer visibility thing I've always had. Um, I've I've not really been [00:10:30] straight passing. So, uh, which is definitely has the benefits in terms of finding other queer people and making friends, um, and going to Sweden for a conference in six weeks time. And I was like, Oh, uh, and the week after the conference, I'm just going to see around Sweden and, uh, have fun, and I was like, Oh, what am I gonna do? I'm gonna find people. My friend made the joke that I should just go and find some women with queer haircuts. And then the network will work and I'll meet people. And the thing is that she's probably just about right [00:11:00] because there is this kind of, I think, because a lot of people you can't sort of rely on your own family as much. A lot of the time you might be estranged from them in some way or from, you know, the the community necessarily where you live. There is, I think, a more national and even international sort of links, um, between people and that can be really useful at times in terms of, you know, finding a place to stay or [00:11:30] knowing people that know people and making friends and stuff. There's a a few wonderful people, which, of course, I won't name But, um, in New Zealand that I swear I seem to know absolutely everyone in New Zealand and yeah, it's it's it's always like seems to keep some kind of national or international community going, you know, introducing people when people turn up in other cities and, you know, spreading the network and organising and all that kind of, [00:12:00] um, do you think that social media and the Internet are kind of playing more of a part in how we build community and connect across New Zealand, or even just in our regions? Oh, definitely. I mean, in terms of the Internet, it just means that there's a a massive, more amount of information available. Um, particularly in terms of either being in terms of being queer or trends as, um, if you're without the Internet, there's very little information available, especially if you're living in a rural [00:12:30] area. Um, like I remember, um, furiously. Like trying to find books about being being a gay woman when I was a teenager and, you know, living in rural England, you you'd find you'd find one every few years or something like that. And to be honest, most of the ones that you'd find would be absolutely terrible, and you'd still get them because you're like, Oh, look, it's there and they would they'd be absolutely like, Yeah, they'd be either be boring [00:13:00] or, you know, um, yeah, not much there. But there's so much on the Internet, Of course. I think this is sometimes, um, I think there's probably a fair few people that end up. I've got a few friends that probably have a bit of an Internet addiction. For that reason that there's maybe a bit more of a community and network and information on the Internet than it, it's easier to find people on the Internet than it than there is in real life. And I know a few people that definitely spend most of their [00:13:30] time on Tumblr as opposed to meeting people in the world. But things like, um, you know, I I have. I have I have issues with Facebook, same as everyone else does in terms of its business man model basically works on taking information, selling it to other people and that they have more information about you than the government would ever be able to collect through. You know, a fiendishly good spy network. Um, [00:14:00] but on the other hand, it's so damn useful. Um, if you imagine how many emails you'd have to send per week in order to stay in contact with that many people to that extent, it's like you'd have to be, you know, a proper old school man of letters. You know, um, you know, like, sort of the romantic era of poets and stuff like that Mad old Byron and the like, um, a day. So it definitely makes it easier to stay in contact with people that you're not necessarily seeing every day and, [00:14:30] um, especially if you're a little bit disorganised. It tells you when the events are happening, you know, you don't you don't have to give you like, Oh, what's happening that's happening. And you do kind of meet you notice people just outside your friendship circles as well and comment on the same things. You're like. Ah, yeah, so quite often you like, you'll know of people's existence for quite a while before you actually bump into them. Um, which is, which is always interesting. You can almost judge when someone's going to appear in your life based on how [00:15:00] often your friends talk about them and how often they come on the same things you're like. Well, I know this person exists, probably going to bump into them within the next month or two. Do you think it's harder, um, to be of the South Island? Um, I don't know I mean, I've spent most of my time in New Zealand in the South Island. Um, I lived in Auckland for two years. Um, but I don't know if I can really compare that. I was at high school and [00:15:30] I didn't find any. Um, there were no other queer people at my high school in the North Shore and the the problem with North Shore is slightly cut off, I think from the main city. And yeah, I just somehow didn't really fall into any of the queer stuff that was happening in Auckland. And I tried to follow up a few things, but there was sort of just, like, dead websites and things that obviously once existed. And the website hadn't been updated in two years and stuff. So it wasn't, um I didn't really find that much of here. And to be honest, I didn't really find that much [00:16:00] in Dunedin when I first moved down here as well. I was the only, um uh, yeah, it took. I think I think a lot of the the queer groups in Dunedin tend to be quite. There's not much officially organised. It's mainly just on a sort of person to person and friendship basis, which can make it quite hard if you're new to the city to meet people. Um, of course, I don't really have this problem now because I've lived in Dunedin for seven years and I know pretty much everyone now. [00:16:30] Um, but yeah, I do remember when I first arrived here? Um, I actually ended up dating a boy six weeks into, um into being at Carrington. This was actually the first boy boy you heard of. I only like to go before that. Um, anyways, but we dated for 4. 5 years, so and I think it is more difficult to sort of get yourself involved in quest stuff if you like. Yeah. No, I'm quit. Yeah, I know I have a boyfriend. But [00:17:00] people Yeah, I guess you're just less likely to sort of be invited to stuff, or, um yeah, um, I think it must. It's It's very difficult to find people in Dunedin until you've got a sort of until you've sort of know enough people that you've got a critical mess that people can introduce you to people. Um, there are There are groups here. There is Um, of course, of which I have been to a few times, and occasionally [00:17:30] I've met friends there, but, um, it's never really been a an environment. I felt particularly comfortable and, uh, particularly attracted to, um I don't drink so and, uh, I can I find it difficult to hear people in loud bars and stuff and there's nothing wrong with me hearing, but I always find it difficult to, uh, hear sounds when loud music is going on, like separate out sounds to speak. So I find it's kind of like, you know, what I want to do when I meet people is have a have a talk with them. [00:18:00] Um, and I can't really do that in a sort of loud dance party, and I just tended to find it a bit crass and a bit that course and and not really that kind of my kind of scene. My lectures there are lovely people and organising those groups. And, um, there's there's another group here, space of which we've got quite a few friends that are involved in, but, um, yeah, they all tend to have their niches, and I think unless if you're outside those niches, It could be quite difficult to, [00:18:30] um, certainly I know a lot of Trans people in Dunedin. They sort of turned up and haven't been able to find, Um, I've definitely not been accepted by the communities here. And, um, I have had problems being able to find any of the Trans people. The Trans group I'm part of South Trans has only been around for about a year and a half, and I think the one for that died quite a long time ago. So for a long time, there wasn't really anything at all. So you say there's quite a lot of trans phobia [00:19:00] from the queer community in um, it really depends on which bit, which who I mean, there's no there's, there's not. I don't think there's ever really been There's not a great community in and there's like 12 14, all kind of on top of each other, depending on the age and what you do and whatever. Um, and some of them are definitely a lot more open than others. Um, but yeah, definitely. There's a lot of transphobia towards, particularly [00:19:30] like trans women, I think definitely much more than Trans men. I think most of the opinion most people have towards trans men is what they exist. This is that weird kind of reaction from, like, head dudes Of Of course, everyone wants to be a man, which is is is is also yeah, odd. What's it like for 20 people in Dunedin to do things like access health care? Is that quite hard? Um, student health is absolutely magnificent [00:20:00] here. Um, um, yeah, they operate on the, um, informed consent model, which I think is one of the few places in New Zealand that does, which is absolutely amazing. So they're basically like, as long as you know, you seem sane and you understand what you're doing, and you've made that decision knowing the consequences. Then you don't have to prove that you have gender identity disorder disorder or anything like that, which is cool. Um, and yeah, I've had a few friends [00:20:30] that I've passed through the same system, and they've all had a very positive response. I think I've heard that, um, the reason why student health is so good is due to one particular trans guy a few years ago, Um, who went in and, um, basically gave lectures and talked with everyone until it became like that. And so I think the fact that that is good is is probably due to mainly this 11 person, which is is, thank you very much for making it a lot easier for the rest of us. [00:21:00] Um, but I think I think, Yeah, but that definitely There's a lot of variation. Certainly. Um, I think a lot of people I've heard a lot of other stories from people who've gone to different psyches and different doctors and have different endos and stuff that have had, I think, a good amount of a harder time of it. And I've heard some pretty bad stories that I've I've been pretty lucky. Hm. Um, what do you think about how, um, queer and Trans people represented [00:21:30] in the media? And if we think about media is kind of all sorts, like news movies to E, I guess which I guess if we start with, like, the most conservative media, if we're talking about TV and newspapers and stuff, um um, representation of queer stuff is is is is ok. I mean, there's definitely people there now, which is fabulous. Um, I don't know if they they they probably definitely don't have the sort of breadth of personality Um, [00:22:00] that you you desire probably match the way the same. Even Just women in, um, TV and media probably don't sort of show the breadth of character. Um, it's probably about the same sort of they're there. But maybe, you know, they tend to play yeah, stereotypes or side rolls. Or, um, but obviously it depends where you're looking. Um, a lot of the sort of made for TV [00:22:30] stuff that is now available on the Internet has a lot, um, bigger range of different types of people. Um, but it and that's just in the last few years. That's become a lot better in terms of books. You know, there are very, very many amazing good books out there. Um, I guess the problem is always getting a hold of them, which, in the age, if you have, uh, if you have a debit card and Internet access is actually pretty easy. But if [00:23:00] you were a young person, didn't have access to one or both or uh, could could be quite difficult, because the books are out there, but they're certainly not being sold in Whit or whatever. Uh, the Internet is, um, has a lot of good stuff and a lot of terrible stuff. I mean, it really depends on there's definitely bits of the internet you wouldn't want to stray on to, or, um yeah, and just as you just sort of hope that the people looking for information look [00:23:30] at sort of sensible places and don't just sort of stray on to the depths of Yahoo answers or or or or or dig it, um, looking, looking for that information and just get horribly horribly. But yeah, I I it's it's OK. I think I hope this the next generation coming up is pretty Internet literate, so they won't. Hopefully, they don't fall down too many of the holes. Um, what do you think are some of the most important issues facing queer and trans people in New Zealand at the moment? [00:24:00] Um, so I would say that one of the biggest is is abuse in schools, high schools. That can be really, really, really terrible places for queer and trans people. Um, and we're not just talking about, you know, um, you know, they may maybe the off comment We're talking about, like, physical abuse and, like, widespread all the time, sort of emotional abuse and stuff it can be can be pretty bad. Um, think that's something that really needs to change. And we don't [00:24:30] have any sort of youth queer support thing going on here. Um, says it exists. It doesn't exist. It hasn't existed for about the last 78 years here, down here. And, um yeah, so, um, but on the other end of the scale, old people, um, I think quite a lot of resources and stuff that's getting better is is for people our age. Young adults, right. We've got the energy and the time to going out and doing stuff and looking out for each other. [00:25:00] Um, but I think it is very difficult to be trans and 80 especially. You know, if you don't have the family connections that you also don't have the strength to sort of necessarily be independent and look after yourself. You can't exactly say fuck you society. If you have to rely on you know all these people to be looked after. Um, I've I've had some friends that were much older, you know, some sort of worrying about now what happens when I go [00:25:30] into a like an, uh, an elderly home or something like that? And if if your friends that starts to be a problem and again, I think it's not one that anyone is really sort of dealing with yet, Um, people tend to sort of look out for people that around them. And there is a bit of a gap between people tend to hang out with people their own age and maybe a bit above and a bit below. So those older people that yeah, [00:26:00] I think it's probably there needs to be a lot of stuff like that because there's probably a lot. There's a lot fewer groups and there's a lot less connections and stuff. And maybe with the younger people, where do you think things will be in the in the future? Say, like, 10 years? Um, I don't know. Um, I would hope I Yeah, in a lot of ways, I like to think it's getting better. Um, certainly like looking like my I've got. My sister goes to the same high school as as me and I went to when I was a kid. [00:26:30] Um and yeah, it suddenly seems to be a lot better with regard to queer issues. And it definitely was when me and my my little brother went. Um, but then, of course, um, yeah, it's it's hard to tell just from her because she she's straight. And, um, you sort of pretty normal. And so she maybe things are happening and she's not noticing them, but she's pretty onto it. So I imagine that yeah, she's [00:27:00] definitely had a much better experience than me or my little brother did. Um, maybe just to finish up what, um, what's your favourite thing about being a queer Trans guy in New Zealand in the South Island? Um, Dunedin is just an absolutely wonderful city. Um, if I'm you know, if I'm bored, I can just sort of wander around for five minutes until and I'll bump into someone that I know who wants to do something cool. And you can just go and do it. Um, just yet, [00:27:30] I think the way just let out is built very much for community, which I think it, uh I don't know. It's just a bit weird. Like Dune can be. I think Dunedin is a very lonely city. When you first move to it, I found a lot of people say this, But I think once you're established, it's a very friendly city. Um, you can easily know a lot of people and people do look out for each other as long as they know you, which takes a while. As you can see, this is always a problem with kind of small rural towns, of which Dunedin [00:28:00] is kind of a giant version of in some ways.

IRN: 800
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/south_samantha.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004305
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089599
TITLE: Samantha - South
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Alison Mau; Anika Moa; Aotearoa New Zealand; Christianity; CoffeQ (Dunedin); Dunedin; Invercargill; It Gets Better; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Rule Foundation; South (series); Tabby Besley; activism; assimilation; bisexual; coming out; community; confidence; dyke; employment; equality; faggot; family; friends; gay; homophobia; homophobic bullying; human rights; identity; internalised homophobia; internet; labels; language; lesbian; lesbihonest; marriage equality; media; nightclub; normalisation; parents; pride; public affection; public display of affection (PDA); relationships; religion; school; self preservation; sexuality; so gay; social media; social networking; stigma; support; television; university; youth
DATE: 9 May 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Dunedin, Dunedin, Otago
CONTEXT: In this podcast Samantha talks about growing up in Invercargill, homophobia at university and bisexuality.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How would you describe your identity? Um, I would say that I'm gay. Um, but in recent years, I'd actually say I'm more bisexual. Do you want to talk a bit about that? Um that came from I came. I come from in cargo and growing up there and identifying pretty early on that I was very attracted to women. Um, was hard, but, you know, typical small town kind of chat. [00:00:30] So to kind of self preserve, I came out as a lesbian to kind of Lee way away from or kind of like draw the line in the sand in relation to some of the males down there that are quite not really coping with, um, homosexuality in any way. So it was kind of like, yeah, saying that I was gay when I was younger was a lot easier to deal with for a lot of the public. Um, after coming to university and kind [00:01:00] of getting to know different people and being more involved in the queer scene and things like that, I realise that I'm probably actually just bisexual, but it's a lot easier for some people's stomach. You're telling them that you're a lesbian. cool. That's really, like, interesting narrative because often people like tell the story the other way, like when they come out as bisexual first, to kind of get through that. Yeah, Yeah, that was actually advice from my parents that I got [00:01:30] like because they were totally fine. They were so fine with the fact that I was gay. It was great. I have beautiful parents, but, um, my dad was quite worried that there was quite a stigma to bisexual girls, that it was quite like I don't mean it's an offence in any way, but a lot of people almost don't take them seriously when they're younger, like it's almost, I don't know, like I write a passage for young ladies. And so my dad was like, Maybe you should commit and go the whole way because, like, you know, [00:02:00] you can, you can always come back. It's fine. It's no big deal. So it was a lot easier, and it actually in hindsight was probably the best thing I could have done because I was the only gay person in a school of 2000 people, which is not true, which is not true for you when you came out. What kind of reaction did you get at school? Great. Like girlfriends were just wonderful. Just wonderful. Like obviously nobody. You get the occasional girl, that's a little bit [00:02:30] like, Oh, shit. She's been lovely. Sorry for swearing. Um, that, you know, they think that you're naturally or innately attracted to every single girl because you are queer. Um, but on the whole, it was pretty wonderful. They were really cool. There was always a little bit of a stigma, or like a fetishizing from some of the males, like some of the guys. But I had already built up a pretty good rapport with a lot of my friends and a lot of the guys around the school and things like that. So it wasn't [00:03:00] It didn't become like the part of me. It wasn't what I was known as. I was known as other things around the school. So, you know, it was just a branch of my personality. So I was pretty lucky in, I think, because I imagine a lot of people had a lot worse around down there. Yeah. Did you experience any kind of homophobia at school? Yeah, of course. Of course. Yeah, um, nothing massive. Nothing that I can even relate to people that have actually probably experienced homophobia and bullying. But I [00:03:30] You know, of course, I got the, like, fag and like, and stuff like that often it was actually from younger people. It was actually commonly from, like, the 3rd and 4th forms, even when I was seventh form. Like, just these little plots that just don't even, you know, fully grasp it or understand it. And they just associate the word gay with negative connotations. And so when they find out that somebody is gay, [00:04:00] they assume that that is, like, a bad thing. So hopefully they've grown up, You know, they're 18 or 20 now, so hopefully they know what the great game means. Um, now, the biggest amount of homophobia I've ever had was actually around university. Wow. What was that like? Um, it wasn't bad. It was in first year, and it was from a young man, and he was [00:04:30] in the same hall as me. And he was a lovely, lovely guy, and I don't think he actually realised what he was doing. Um, he when he found out that I was gay. He almost took it upon himself to make me strike. Like it was like a little bit of, you know, his deal for the rest of the year. I don't know how to describe it, but he he was a lot like I actually as [00:05:00] a human being. I don't have much against him, But just how he spoke to me and treated me was very, very derogatory. And he commonly touched me really inappropriately in public and things like that, which made me very uncomfortable. Um, I think and I don't want to stigmatise or, like, put these people in a basket. But he was also a very religious Christian boy, and I think he thought he was doing me a little bit of a favour, [00:05:30] which was lovely in a way. But, um, it was also very demeaning and horrible the whole time. Um, but to be honest, yeah, around uni is actually where I've gotten the most, like, just walking a couple of weeks ago with my girlfriend across the park. We got Liz. Be honest. Yelled at us. We were holding hands, for goodness sake. Um, it was just Yeah, it's pretty incredible. I guess because [00:06:00] people have more guts at this age, and they're also commonly filled with liquid courage of alcohol. But yeah, definitely have had a lot more kind of, you know, hoopla yelled at me at car windows nowadays. No. Um, are you involved much in the kind of stuff and support that's going on at the university? To be honest, not not at all. Um, when [00:06:30] I came out of cargo, there was nothing. There was nothing really there still was it quiet? Mind you if you try to get down there. Good luck. Um, so there was really I never really got tied into it from a young age. And then when I came to university, I think it was a part of me that was always a little bit scared of being too associated with it. And it's becoming something that kind of defined me as a human being. So for the first four years, [00:07:00] I've been here for six. Now, for the first four years of uni, I kind of hid from it almost like I in relation to the support centre here, like this beautiful, beautiful place. And these beautiful people like I'd never go to queer events or anything like that. I have massive respect for everybody that does. I do now a lot more now, but I'm definitely not involved in relation to it. It's it again, I think was another, like, self preserving thing, a way to maybe make people [00:07:30] not identify me as closely with it. Which in hindsight, was, you know, it's quite a not a regret, but something that I wish I could change because it's so wonderful. Um, it's so cool to feel like I'm such a family. Um, yeah, the I prefer to associate, I think, with people that didn't I don't know how to put it. I guess [00:08:00] it was almost as though this is gonna sound terrible. Oh, my God. Um, it was almost as though I was like a tiny bit homophobic in myself, Like not in any way that I was. I'm very proud, like I'm very gay, like I would tell anybody, like as soon as I came out at 16, 17, 18, 19, like, it just didn't change throughout my life. But it was just that I think I was a little bit too scared of the reality of, like [00:08:30] actually identifying with that rainbow flag and how that would affect me in kind of like social situations or in jobs or things like that. And that is all a myth, which I worked out very fast Now, so you kind of people kind of get put in or something like that. Yeah, but I I'd tell them when I was gay, but I just wouldn't ever let them see me in. Kind of like a [00:09:00] yay gay way, Unfortunately. So you said over the last couple of years he started going along to some and stuff. What kind of changed for you? What kind of change is that? I actually made friends that were gay. So the big difference was that the I didn't know anybody who was gay. I knew a few people, but, you know, they weren't strong, like, strong in their beliefs or in relation to, like, you know, advocating for it. And up here, I met some wonderful, [00:09:30] wonderful girls at work and really beautiful guys and just kind of got immersed a little bit more. I just you know that when they asked me if I was going to these events and I said, you know, like, Oh, no. And I had no reason why I wasn't. You know, I quickly kind of learned that I speak a bit of a, um and I Yeah, I missed out on it a lot because of it, but no I. I go [00:10:00] to a lot of events like the Ah, to be honest, I'm still a little bit shy in relation to them. Like this is making me sweat pounds that we're just talking about it. But, um, I go to a lot of more. Maybe the night events, like clubbing and things like that around town. But I'm still like I went to I've been to one coffee queue. That was one of the most terrifying experiences of my life. And I like to think that I'm quite like a good social person, like I'm literally [00:10:30] employed as I don't even care if people know, like who I am. Just so you know, on this, um, I'm literally employed as, like, a communicator, so I like take tos. I'm paid to talk and stuff like that, but, um, when it came to like a situation where I was like put in a room and had to just like chat to these people. They had, like, similar narratives in life or like underlying narratives. It was just terrifying because I felt like I had marginalised them myself for the last, like, four or five years, [00:11:00] so don't know. I was It's It was good, though very, very humbling experience, and I'm glad that I go to them now. Do you say it as an important thing to you personally to have that kind of sense of like, like, you say, family or like community? Now that you've been to some definitely like, there's definitely something that you need to identify outside of yourself? Um, you need to find strength in other people. Um, obviously, you need strength in [00:11:30] yourself 100% but there's a massive weighting and importance on family and kind of like just having, like a community or a culture to fall back on because not everything was coaching way. And there are people in the world that are still homophobic, then things like that. Unfortunately, so you know, having human beings that understand on a different level, even though you know, maybe they've been through different things as well, [00:12:00] it's just No, it's terrific. It's like, yeah, it's made me feel so much more confident in myself having it cool. Um, have you been involved in or have you, like, obviously, just like people finding that community and stuff more like online, like through social media? Yeah. Um, I've actually Yeah, I definitely have. It's like social media is wonderful, isn't it? Um, the [00:12:30] internet is wonderful because it's like this gateway for people to be able to look it up. And actually, I, I almost wish that it had been way more present when I was young because maybe it would have been less of it. Idiot. But, um, the I've seen lots of my friends and by lots, I mean, like, maybe two or three, be able to actually come to terms with the sexuality a lot easier through using the Internet. And it's because they have this feedback system or something that they can go to and look and search and see [00:13:00] all these, like positive signs without actually having to, like, kind of sit in front of another human being and say these words like they don't have to completely vocalise it yet It's almost like, you know, testing the waters kind of thing, which is awesome, like and it's I've seen it help those couple of people, which is really, really cool. Yeah, there's a lot of good stuff out there, Actually, at the moment when you were first, like realising that you were gay. Um, what kind of [00:13:30] messages had you got about that from society, Do you think? Um, so I like mainly just negligible. Like I hadn't had hugely homophobic or I hadn't had hugely positive, like the one thing that actually sticks with me that my mom said one day that she won't even remember saying like it was when I was really young. We were just watching TV and I remember asking her this. I [00:14:00] had that the process had made no connection in my mind that I was gay. But I just asked her what she thought about gay people and she said, Oh, no, they're fine. They're totally fine, just as long as they don't wave their flag and my thanks like kind of thing. So she wasn't she was meaning like they're fine. They just need to live their lives out. But she just just to check in case she uses. My mom was wonderful, and she absolutely would wave a rainbow flag Now, um, but that was kind of I guess it sums it up pretty well in relation [00:14:30] to how I grew up. Like it was fine as long as you kind of keep to yourself. And you didn't really let people know, Um, which is not that healthy because it took, like, to actually identify within myself That I was gay was actually, like, I have one of those, like, actual epiphany kind of moments, which was really cool. But I imagine how many people [00:15:00] get the pleasure of that. Um, I had always known I'd like girls. I always, like, always had crushes. I'm pretty sure my parents picked up on them very early on, like, I'd just be infatuated with these women. And it took, like, my fifth form PE teacher doing health, saying that men, they're like men are gay and women, they're like women are lesbian. It took her to say, like that physical sentence in front of me to be like holy shit, [00:15:30] like I am a lesbian, like that's what that means. So I guess like the fact that it was never really acknowledged. Makes it a little bit harder. So, yeah, I haven't really grown up in homophobic or a positive like homosexual area. OK, it was great. Do you think it's hard being a queen and in the South Island? Um, I never really fully [00:16:00] thought about that. I think often it's just situation dependent and where you are, like anywhere in New Zealand, that is quite isolated, I imagine will be hard. Um, I think potentially, but purely because of the fact that we have one quarter of the population size, so a lot less of a pool to kind of dip from in relation to diversity. I think where [00:16:30] I am currently so in the student area of Otago is probably the cesspool of it all. So I imagine that I'm actually in, you know, a bit of a area that is unimaginable for most of the rest of the South Island in relation to kind of like queer community. So I have a bit of a rosy 10 of glasses of beer at all. Um, I think South Island on a whole, though probably [00:17:00] yeah is a lot hotter than the North Island that I haven't spent enough time out there to be able to actually, you know, give you a proper answer. And when you were living in in the cargo, did you, um, ever manage to meet any other queer people or have any relationships with girl? Yeah, I Yeah, I did. I had a couple of different relationships. Um, one of them went for a little while with [00:17:30] a girl just a year older than me. She was lovely and wonderful. In hindsight, I think it was a bit of her. Oh, I don't know. I don't know how to put that, because we we don't really talk that much anymore. But we've got nothing but good blood. But it was a never acknowledged relationship external to us. And so in hindsight, it doesn't feel that genuine on her part. Um, I had, [00:18:00] like, a couple of things with girls, but they were also quite like maybe them testing the waters or just, you know, definitely toes in. But that wasn't at all sexual. Just so you know, um, yeah, that was pretty much it. It was pretty negligible down there in relation to, like, actual relationships. [00:18:30] How did you meet people? Um gay people, but yeah, like school. School. Yeah, yeah. No. Yeah. No. And none of them. Are they still down? One of them know that they are all very strict. Yeah, according to their life choices. Yes. No. And did you ever see, like, any [00:19:00] queer people publicly and as a couple, like on the street like No, never, never. Um yeah, that was actually a phenomenon that I had to like, weirdly overcome when I came here. Like seeing gay people holding hands was bizarre, even to me. And that was something that I was quite ashamed of When I felt like when I seen kind of like the first gay guy couple walking down the street holding hands, it felt weird. [00:19:30] And it was purely just because of exposure. Like it's beautiful, but yeah. No. You never seen anything other than no, um, what do you think about the way, um, queer and trans people represented in the media? I feel like media is kind of also like news books, movies to me. Well, like in the recent years, especially with the whole marriage we're going through. Just beautiful. Like it's amazing. It's [00:20:00] so cool. You even see stories occasionally on stuff and things like that, where that's not even the forefront of the story lane. They'll be chatting about a wedding. And then it's not until you're like, you know, looking through all the photos or like reading through you just like, Oh, it's actually two women's names or like something like that, you it doesn't even click. And it's not something that they have to sell stories with anymore, which is terrific and how it should be. Um, [00:20:30] when I was younger, though, there was definitely a lot less. Um, are there any characters or storylines you found in the media that, um, you can personally identify with, um, not that I've personally, really notice to this in the recent years. Um, this Alison Moore had a pretty beautiful storyline that I guess the only [00:21:00] reason I see me identify with it because she's a woman. Um and I, um, things like that. But what about like T like TV shows or movies to see that hold on? Um, no. Like there was never really, you know, a massive to me. Maybe, but maybe it was just like the media that I was exposed to, but That's one thing that I have actually [00:21:30] talk to some people about is that you know you, you've you It's never really completely been present in the media. Maybe it's just more recently today that it's just there or it's a thing. Um, no, not that I noticed. Um, so you mentioned the marriage equality before. How do you feel about that person? Awesome. [00:22:00] Awesome. So good. It was this bizarre, like, euphoric feeling, um, that I never thought I'd have over it because I'd always like As soon as I acknowledged that I was gay, I'd kind of automatically stamped out that idea. And I was like, No, well, it's just not gonna happen. You're not gonna get married. And I almost to a point, got a little bit aggressive internally about it, cause I was just so like, you know, it's [00:22:30] a Christian, were originally pagan like it's a It's a thing that is like stemmed from a society that has always been the one that has stigmatised homosexuality. So, you know, naturally, I didn't really want to get married, but when it went through, it was like this opportunity that I'd never even processed, and it's wonderful like it's so cool and it's [00:23:00] I still don't know whether I will get married or not. But it makes me really happy that people that have, you know, being together for 40 or 50 years, and they've never been allowed that acknowledgement that they have the same love as my parents. You know, they're allowed to get married, and they should have always been allowed to get married. So I think it's a massive deal for New Zealand. It's beautiful. Did you, um, write a submission or celebrate it when [00:23:30] the third reading passed? Um, I did write a submission, and I was pretty excited when it passed. I actually hang out with one of my queer friends that I knew, Um, when it all happened, I wrote on stuff about it, actually a couple of months ago, and I even use my own name and everything to, like, identify with it. And it was probably one of the most like, liberating experiences of my life to, like, [00:24:00] be able to, you know, put my name to this object that was just 100% gay and just very open, like, um so I think Yeah, maybe that Bill has done a lot for me than I even realise. Did you get, um, positive responses to what? You Yeah, of course. Yeah, Massively. Um, I was more writing on the idea that, like, [00:24:30] I was very, very stoked, and I was very excited about it going through, um, but more looking to the day that it's not a it's it's not a thought process like homosexuality is not even a thought process. It's just another thing that is occurring in society. So I got, I think, a little bit of mixed feedback. But I got a lot of positive feedback, which was really, really cool, So yeah, yeah, that was wonderful. [00:25:00] What do you think it's going to be like in the future in New Zealand for like, say, in 10 years, for like, um, I feel like it's gonna be pretty chilled in relation to a lot of things? Um, I think there will be a lot more foundations and support centres. There'll be a lot more commonly acknowledged and known. There'll be a lot less, um, people hanging out cars and yelling at me while I walk on the street. All the younger people, [00:25:30] um, I also think and hope that the word gay is eradicated. Um, it's wolf gay in relation to stupid. Um, that's just something that I think the next generation needs to really like. Champion, because that's so bad. It's so disgusting. Um, so hopefully, yeah, in [00:26:00] 10 years, I'd love to be able to see that gone. But I'd also love to be able to see as much as I want to see, like, more roots and more laid down and more support centres. I'd love for it to almost just be assimilated into, like, society. So list needing to be in like, I don't know, B is advocating for it because we are now just we are on the level we [00:26:30] call. So yeah, maybe more acknowledgement that we're just beautiful. And there's no need for, you know, equality. But because we have it, Yeah. Don't know. Fascinating question about, um So those are your hopes are kind of where we as a community and what are your, like, hopes personally for your like Oh, God, What are you going to do after you finished your Well, I actually just I just enter in my masters [00:27:00] on Monday. So big question now. So really, Have you studied zoology and genetics? Yeah, so it was really fun, but Oh, God. Um, I I want to travel a lot. I'd love to see the world, and actually, I see me. A part of the travelling is that I would love to see how other people in the world live as gay people. And I've always had this affinity with living in Africa or living [00:27:30] on, like, a big gay national park or something like that. And I think part of it is because I almost want to be like, you know, like, my sexuality hasn't changed anything, and they shouldn't change where I'm allowed to work in the world and where I'm allowed to. You know, where I've always been passionate about. So I've always wanted to go over there. But it's intriguing because even today [00:28:00] I'm talking to you in this room about how wonderful it is in New Zealand and how I've got a marriage bill and things like that. But when I go to these countries to potentially work, I'm gonna have to completely, you know, like hide it, um, for legal reasons, not just for like, you know, stigma reasons, So yeah, like I my future is really exciting. And I can't wait to go and see these different things [00:28:30] and maybe potentially be a little bit humbled in relation to how good I've got it here in New Zealand with my family and friends and things like that. But as much as I say that we still have, you know, a long way to go in New Zealand before I'm happy that I'm 100% kind of equal in society and things like that. So maybe I'll learn some tricks if you could give a message, um, to that poor young person and in the cargo [00:29:00] he's not out. What would it be? Um, just that it gets better. I mean, it's it is shit. I'm so sorry. It's it's horrible right now, um, that, you know, you are, You're Yeah, you're totally fine. You're OK. And you are kind of it doesn't define you. [00:29:30] And don't let people think that it does. Like it's a wonderful, beautiful part of you that you should be very proud of, but you should never let people kind of isolate you as a result of it. Um, don't know sexuality is a hard thing in [00:30:00] a small town. Just Yeah, maybe tell somebody that you trust was pretty much it and to finish up. What's your favourite thing about being a young gay person in New Zealand? What was that? A gay gay person in the world. Um um, favourite thing. Oh, my girlfriend? Um, yeah. No, definitely. [00:30:30] God, she's hot. But, um, beyond that I'd say just the sheer beauty and kind of, like love and respect for it. But again, maybe I'm just in the right places. Um, there's just New Zealand is in such a good place at the moment for it. And I think it's [00:31:00] I just love the fact that I'm It's just a normal part of my day now. It's just a normal part of my day and my boss knows and she doesn't care, and she loves it. She will ask me about my girlfriend. My girlfriend actually works at work with me, and it's not even a they'd all ever been in an acknowledgement of anything like people, they'll be like, Oh, are you dating? And we say, Yes. There's no further conversation kind of thing. Um, so [00:31:30] I just love being young and gay and kind of I love the idea that I'm just another beautiful couple in New Zealand that everybody acknowledges.

IRN: 801
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/south_christina.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004304
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089598
TITLE: Christina - South
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Ashburton; BBC; Big Gay Out (Auckland); Drawn Together (tv); Dunedin; International Socialist Organization (ISO); Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Maurice Williamson; Out in the Square (Wellington); Pride parade (Auckland); Q4 (Queer Coffee at Four); Rule Foundation; Russia; South (series); Tabby Besley; bullying; children; dating; design; facebook. com; family; film; friends; gay; grandparents; health; homophobia; identity; internet dating; labels; language; lesbian; marriage equality; media; news; parents; pray the gay away; relationships; school; skinhead; social media; social networking; support; travel; university; youth; youtube. com
DATE: 8 May 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Dunedin, Dunedin, Otago
CONTEXT: In this podcast Christina talks about growing up and living in Dunedin.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How do you describe your identity? Um, well, I'm gay. I identify as a lesbian. I don't go by the whole Oh, what are they called? The descriptions people use, like but sure, I don't know, identified by any of those. I'm just me. So do you think the language that we use to describe a sexual orientation has changed much over [00:00:30] time? Um, it has when you look at, you know, back in the old days, gay used to be, you know, being happy. And now it's There's a lot more offensive words. Like the word. Um, I think mostly gay guys would find that offensive, though. I think, um, I certainly don't like the word, but yeah, but yeah, it has [00:01:00] changed a lot over the years. Lots of new words have come out in the dictionary, and yeah, when did you first become aware? Um, that you were gay when I was 19, and yeah, that was a bit scary because I always said that I was never going to be gay, but well, that kind of changed and Yeah, but it was a good, [00:01:30] scary moment, I guess. Why do you think you said to yourself that you'd never began that career in denial. Or did you? Did society kind of teach you, baby, I think, Well, my father was home. A father? Yeah, I really homophobic. And I'd been brought up by him for 12 years, so I didn't wanna confront him about it when I did, he didn't talk to me for two weeks, so but he he's fine with it now. [00:02:00] And Mum was, you know, we are. We always knew you were gay. So what kind of reactions did you get from people? Um well, my mother and my grandmother, I mean, my grandmother, you'd expect from her that, um she was I mean, being a grandparent and lots of grandparents is at days were brought up in that generation where, [00:02:30] you know, being gay was not acceptable. But my grandmother, she's completely accepted. You know who I am, and she forced me to meet her lesbian friends. She did. It was really uncomfortable. Um, yeah. Mum was like we always knew you were gay. Dad didn't Obviously didn't talk to me for two weeks, so I moved away. And then he started talking to me again. And now he just gives me shit. [00:03:00] Where a bass to do grow up Mostly Dunedin. And then I moved to a with my mom and lived there for 56 years of my life. Now back to Yeah. Oh, I've been down here for nearly a year now. It's been great, but Yeah. Study. Did you experience any, like, at high school or anything like that? Um, no. [00:03:30] I had a gay friend in high school. He came out before. Well, before I did. And, yeah, I didn't. I had moments of our school where I was like, I think I might be gay, but I didn't really take much on board about that. Um, I don't know what the the attitude was like towards gays, but they did. [00:04:00] There was a lot of bullying. Um, from what I saw anyway, and it just wasn't good. And then we got a new principal, and then he kind of stopped the ground a bit. Put in harder roles. So the bullying kind of stopped? Not really, but most of it do you think it's harder to make wear the South island? Um, to be honest, I don't know what schools [00:04:30] up north are like, Um I guess it depends what area. Like if you're in Auckland or Wellington, then it's perfectly acceptable. But I don't know small towns. It will be a bit more. Yeah, down here. I think it would be the same. Like in the bigger cities. It will be OK, because the amount of gas that we've got, but in really [00:05:00] small towns, I don't think so. They might be OK. I'm not too sure. Um, So what's it been like, Um, coming out and going to university, and Yeah, it's good. I've got two gay friends in class. Um, three lesbian tutors, Um, and, yeah, that's a perfectly welcoming environment. [00:05:30] So yeah, I'm really enjoying it. Cool. Are you involved with, um any of the queer stuff that goes on? Um, I do go to Q four. So far this semester, I've only been twice. What's Q four? Um, Q four is the queer coffee at four I. I normally just call it Q group, but, um, that's what [00:06:00] they used to describe it. Quick. Coffee at four. So, basically, just chill out and no talk to people have a good yarn and social life. That's fun. Is it important to have to have kind of, like a sense of, like, community and belonging to that. Well, I guess because if you you know, I think we've got a couple of queer groups down here. Um, if you go, then you, [00:06:30] you know, make new friends. And, um, you know, if you haven't come out to your parents yet, it will just give you a bit of security, um, to know that you know, you're not the only one that's like this. And yeah, you have, like, gay friends, people of all different sexuality, you know, support you. And yeah, [00:07:00] if I I guess it's just I don't know for me. Anyway, just security knowing that, you know, I could have gay friends and all that, and Yeah, I think that's a good, like support group as well. So yeah. Um, have you had any experience of homophobia at university? No, I have not. Awesome. [00:07:30] That's good. Not eating enough. Um, how do you feel about the way career and trans people are represented in the media? Um, well, people don't really advertise that much on in the media, apart from when they have, like, big events like the big the Queer Day out or the Big Queer Out Big Day Out. That's the one. and I think there's a transgender [00:08:00] parade thing that happens in Auckland once a year. I'm not III. I don't know. I don't know a lot about Wellington's gay scene, but from what I've heard, they do have, like, a big, gay out sort of thing up there. Just from what I've heard from out in the Yeah, um, what do you What do you think about, um, the way [00:08:30] quick characters are portrayed on, like, TV shows and movies and books and music. And oh, some and cartoons. Some, you know, animators, directors, writers, whatever. They I don't know how to put it Pins like South Park. You know that you would come across as quite homophobic [00:09:00] with some of the remarks, But other than that I, I find it funny, I I'm a pretty easy oy person. So when it comes to like making jokes about the queer community I, I just I can see it from that point of view, but I can also see it from that point of view and yeah, but sometimes, yeah. Have you seen a cartoon called drawn together? Nothing. Um, [00:09:30] it's a rip off of Big Brother. Pretty much of, like, all these cartoon characters that are ripping off other reality show. Uh, not reality shows other cartoons like you've got the superhero. You've got a Disney princess type thing and the way they portray her. Oh, my God. Um, but there's a gaming character called Xander the gay elf. He's, like, the best character ever, but I don't know if they portray [00:10:00] him too gay or not, but it's things like that that will, you know that from my point of view, right is OK, but everyone has their own views on life. So have you, um, seen any characters or like, storylines that, um, reflect your identity or that you can relate to? Does it count YouTube videos? Sure. Yeah. Dinner [00:10:30] II I follow quite a bit of like, Oh, what's her name? Har. Yeah, I know, um, on YouTube as well as that, or whatever her name is I. I follow some of the bigger gay YouTubers but that they they're more comedy than anything else. So, um, do you follow them because [00:11:00] they're gay? Or is that he found out about them? or, um, I do follow them because they're gay. Um, but also because Hannah heart beat, as the YouTube channel suggests, um, she is She's got two channels. She's got one for, like, advice. And then she's just got, like, a plain comedy. You know, do whatever the hell you want sort of thing. And yeah, sometimes they can. [00:11:30] They can be really good advice in the videos. And, um, yeah, especially because they're gay. And you know you're gay. You You can kind of relate to it more. I like watching straight people. The beauty pie is awesome. Sorry. Um, do you think social media and things things like YouTube and Facebook and stuff have played a big part of the moment in how Korean [00:12:00] people, um, kind of connect to their identity or find other people who Facebook I? I There are a lot of support groups on Facebook. Um, I know I'm with a few pages, but I don't pay any attention. Really. Um, but, you know, you can talk to people from around the world, get, you know, advice from everyone. [00:12:30] Um, the groups are more. They're they're more supportive because But you sometimes you gotta be careful about, you know, some people joining the groups, and then they just bombard the page with homophobic comments and all that. And that's something. You know, people who are trying to come out to their parents. They don't need that, because then they just clam back up into their shell and yeah, so [00:13:00] And how do you feel about the marriage Equality Bill Passing? Yeah, right. Means we can get married. Um, yeah. No, I was quite proud when I heard that New Zealand gay thing in the past. And then I think it was early this year. England, England, Ireland, Scotland. The gay rights bill had [00:13:30] passed as well. So now they can get married. Some states in America are still getting their I'm surprised California didn't get it, though. Wow. Yeah, as soon as the bill came through YouTube. Um, so I'm referring to YouTube a lot. Um, the I can't remember the National Party. The national member's name. He's the one that made the big gay Rainbow [00:14:00] Williamson. I have no idea. But, you know, he was like the you know, though first person in parliament, you know, have a positive outlook like that. You know, It kind of turned into a joke as well. Especially with all the religious. You know, Ma kind of made lots of jokes about the homophobic kind of emails he'd received. Yeah, people, people. Kind of making [00:14:30] ridiculous claims about what was going to happen once gay people could get married. Oh, yeah, bad weather all the time. There are going to be more earthquakes. And and he Yeah, he kind of did this big speech making fun of that a lot. Um, it was funny. Um, what do you study now? What do I study? I'm at the Otago Polytechnic and doing design, So that's fun. [00:15:00] What do you want to do after that? What are your hopes for the future? Well, that's one thing I've been thinking about over the past few days. I want to do archaeology next year, but I don't think I'll get in. Um, but think positive. Um, no, I wanna I want to go on to do a bachelor of design, hopefully next year. And then, um maybe go into the film industry. Cool. Yeah, It should be fun. It looks like fun. [00:15:30] Um, are you interested in marriage and kids and travel or all that kind of thing. Yeah, I was planning because my girlfriend at the moment, she, um she wants kids in three years. Oh, yeah. And if I'm still studying, I won't be able to have time because the bachelor takes another 34 years, but I want to travel in 4 to 5 years. And [00:16:00] because my partner's from England, or I was going to take her back to England and so she could go and visit her family and all that, but lots of her family don't know that she's gay. Um, because apparently they're quite homophobic. Um, but yeah, no, But I also wanted to go to a little town in B or the Bordeaux region. Um, so I still got family there, maybe Austria to visit [00:16:30] my auntie, but, um, you know, mostly England. Um, friends suggested that you know she'll marry me just so I can get residency, But know how the misses will feel about that? Um, but yeah. So it's a toss up between whether to have kids or travel personally. I just want to travel. Kids can wait. Only Yeah. Have you talked about how you would have kids if that was, [00:17:00] too. Um well, she would have them. Yeah, because I always sit there. I don't want to give it because I'm being selfish. I don't want to ruin my body, but also, I don't want to give them my treacherous bloodlines and, well, we have, you know, diabetes, heart disease. Uh, cancer. Um, there was another one that I read online [00:17:30] because I had this condition when I was little, um, hemolytic anaemia, and apparently that's passed down through the gene pool. And, um, yeah, I don't want to get my kids there, so yeah, I'm passing on having the kids, so Yeah, I'll donate an egg. Yeah, sure. But I'm not carrying it air that, um how did you guys meet? [00:18:00] Um, through a friend. He was going to hook us up on a blind date, but I got really impatient and just went through his, um, friends list and it straight on. And the next day, she came over for a cup of coffee, and I was like, Oh, completely gobsmacked. But yeah, we We've been on and off for the past six. Well, since June last year, July [00:18:30] last year. How do you see people meeting other people for dating and stuff Indonesia. Um, well, depends if he's straight or gay. If you Yeah, if you're gay, he'll quick. Um Well, I, I guess where If you've got you know, enough gay friends, you ask them, they might know someone. Um, I would suggest Internet dating, but there are [00:19:00] some weirdos on there, like, literally. I know I've done it before. Um, that would go to Q four and, you know, socialise meet new people, you know, they might be someone single, um, or, you know, if you know, one of your good mates is another who's friends with other queer people. Yeah. Um, [00:19:30] what do you think are some of the most important issues facing current trends? Young people in New Zealand at the moment? Um, uh, it hasn't really made its way into the news. Um, the whole skin he factor thing. What's that? Um, I went to the ISO, the International Socialist organisation, and, um, yeah, they said that they were skinhead [00:20:00] or white power or some sort of gang. Um, we're moving their headquarters to Dunedin from Christchurch. Um, but luckily for most of the students, they are moving to south Dunedin, which for the is the dodgy part? Same with brought film kind of Moscow. I'm not sure. Um, yeah, it's just one of my, um [00:20:30] I have a gay Asian friend and that that's why I don't go into town anymore. Personally, Um, there's a white van that drives around town, beats people up. Um, yeah, they managed to pull on my old flatmate. She's She's gay as well. Um, they tried doing stuff to her. She wouldn't have a bar of it. She managed to get away, but, um, he was [00:21:00] the other guy, Um, he posted on Facebook. He had pictures of this big black welt on his face. He had been beaten up and I. I personally teared up and I was like, What's New Zealand coming to? And I mean, I know on Fridays and Saturday nights, there are a few white vans that drive around, so I just avoid all white vans at all cost. So they've got quite a reputation for [00:21:30] kind of homophobia and yeah, what A Or it's just the people they pick. I don't know. I heard that they're from Milton, but so you're not sure of this homophobia? It's just general. Kind of Yeah, exactly. I mean, for all I know, um, they could be the skinheads that, you know, we're gonna move this out or whatever. I don't know, but yeah, [00:22:00] in this, New Zealand was in US. So, um Well, um, a message that you would give to young people who might be struggling with their sexual orientation, Um, you know, is I don't know. Um, basically, you are who you are. No one can change you. Um, yeah. If if you know, you want to come out [00:22:30] to your parents and come out to your parents, it's not my decision. It's yours. So, um, yeah, basically, that's what I keep on telling everyone is, You know, if I was you, I would do it. But I'm not you. So you do it your way. Um, yeah. You are who you are. No one can change you for the world. Even if they try. Don't change for anyone. You [00:23:00] are who you are. Everybody's unique. Yeah, but yeah. Um, is there anything else you want to add or talk about? I'd love to say that, but I don't know. Russia sucks. Hm. It does. Why is that? what's happening in Russia. Um, the fact that it's pretty much illegal to be gay over there. I was looking up on one the other day. The rule, Uh, the laws, Um, [00:23:30] if you get if the government finds out you're gay, you'll get a $20,000 fine or yeah, or you get sent to a help group to, you know, like, what's that slogan? Pray the gay away. Um, stupid. But a $20,000 fine. And after that, you're not allowed to be gay. That's ridiculous. Yeah, but also, the fact that, you know, Russia has gone downhill. They, um, taking [00:24:00] over of the Ukraine. Um, one of my favourite artists is brush. And she, um, who was also gay? Uh, I don't know her last name, because it's really hard to pronounce, uh, be something. Um, some people will know who I'm talking about, though. She's, um Yeah, he's great. [00:24:30] Um, you know, she supports the Ukraine, which, you know, from if she was born in Russia. She's, you know, Russian, but no, she supports the Ukraine. Which is a good thing, I guess, because yeah, Vladimir Putin is real. Do you follow? Um, kind of International News International News is a lot more interesting than New Zealand news. I just said [00:25:00] that because New Zealand is so small it is. It's either, you know, here, there and everywhere, Um, or really bad political stuff. And it's like, Well, at least overseas they haven't. And news stories and BBC they're the ones to follow. I, I presume. Well, American American media twist [00:25:30] things a lot. Mind you, all media does. So it's like if you watch different aspects of the news, you know, especially if they're a big international story, then you can kind of they will all report it in different ways, and they will have different information. It's like, Well, yeah, I try and spot the fibs coming out. Um, so maybe just finish up. What's your favourite thing about being a, um, [00:26:00] Korean person in Dunedin, South Island, New Zealand? Um, my favourite zone. Um, being I don't really know. I don't honestly know II. I would say, you know, being like the only gay one in the group. But I I've been called a network because I know so many gay people. Um, [00:26:30] I don't really know.

IRN: 799
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/south_amelia.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004303
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089597
TITLE: Amelia - South
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Dunedin; Ellen DeGeneres; Invercargill; It Gets Better; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Rape Crisis; Rule Foundation; South (series); Tabby Besley; UniQ (Otago); abuse; adoption; alcohol; bullying; children; clothing; coming out; counselling; diversity; dyke; facebook. com; family; flatting; friends; going through a phase; homophobic bullying; hope; housing; identity; labels; language; lesbian; long distance relationship; love; marriage equality; media; music; pride; public affection; public display of affection (PDA); queer straight alliance (QSA); rape; rejection; relationships; resident advisors (RA); rug muncher; school; school counselor; sexism; sexuality; social media; social networking; stereotypes; suicide; support; television; transgender; university; youth
DATE: 8 May 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Dunedin, Dunedin, Otago
CONTEXT: In this podcast Amelia talks about bullying, living in Dunedin and flatting situations that are homophobic and sexist.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How would you describe your identity? I would describe it in the way that people have given me kind of a name. So in high school, I was given the name like given the term lesbian. Unfortunately, I kind of have to identify with being a lesbian because it's the easiest way that people can understand. I mean, if I say I'm in a I'm in a relationship with a girl. I like women, but they'll be like, But you're a lesbian. So But [00:00:30] I hate the word because it was always used in kind of a geography fashion, especially within, like, the men who I was who kind of was in my life at that time. So, yeah, so if you could choose words for yourself, there wouldn't There wouldn't be any of that. You just talk about who you like to have relationships. Yeah, exactly. But unfortunately, you know, it makes it easier for everybody else, but it just kind of like inside. I'm just like I'm a lesbian, but it kind of hurts to say, [00:01:00] Do you think the language that we use to describe our sexual orientation has changed much over time? Oh, gosh, yes, it's gone from? I mean, some some lesbians may don't identify as saying, Oh, they're gay. But that would be typically used like a gay man. But then, now there's, you know, all the intersex and and, you know, a show and everything. It's amazing how much it's it's developed like the queer community, because at first it was just, you know, LGBT and maybe like the bisexual wasn't even in there [00:01:30] as much as it was in the past. So yeah, um, when did you become aware that you were attracted to probably in year, Year seven so fresh out of, like, primary school, which is unbelievable. So I just hit puberty and then thought that I thought it was normal to like women. I thought that everybody liked women, that it was like a normal thing and everyone and then everybody [00:02:00] said to me that it was weird, and so I tried to suppress it as much as I could and, um, that I thought that I would grow out of it because I got told that I could that I would grow out of it and that it was just a phase. But it came about year eight when I kind of, like, fell in love with this one girl who didn't like me back. But that's fine. Wasn't meant to be. But yeah, definitely quite a young age. And then it wasn't until, um, about year, year, 12 [00:02:30] year 13 when my parents and my family started realising that I was. And then in first year of university, when I was about 18, that's when I actually came out. So yeah, So how did like you said your family started realising what happened there? Oh, gosh, my my sister said to me, Don't I I don't Why can't you just be? She pretty much said, Why can't you just be like me for once? Why can't you copy me and just be, you know, like men [00:03:00] instead of liking women? And I just said, I can't I really can't help it Like I've tried. I tried to suppress it as much as I could, and I just couldn't anymore. I couldn't live in like a lie. It was just It was pretty awful. And at first when I told Mom and Dad, um, they they actually kind of asked me first, so I was actually on the phone in my hall of residence in tears and they said, Oh, there's this. Who's [00:03:30] this girl that is on your Facebook page? And you know, and then they said, like, Oh, like, what is the deal with it is like, What are you doing? Like this is, you know, dishonourable to our family and kind of that kind of stuff. And then, um, kind of felt like I couldn't really go home after that. Mom and Dad just went absolutely mental, didn't I felt kind of disowned as well. But I'm surprised that, [00:04:00] like, I'm really happy that, like my part, that my partner who is my partner now is like, keep me strong throughout that process. And I think that if I didn't really have her, then I wouldn't really have got through it. Yeah, it was pretty, pretty horrific. I couldn't really go home or anything, so yeah, unfortunately. So what was it like for you at high school? Um, you said you were kind of like figuring things out. Did you experience much homophobia? I got kind of told [00:04:30] to get over it that it wasn't that I shouldn't that the counsellor at at at the school was ridiculous. She was awful as far as I'm concerned and didn't really even help at all. It was It was quite amazing that I would go to counselling and then I mean, she wasn't even religious or anything like that. And she'd say, No, you're not. You know, you're just going through a phase and it was all about me going through a phase at the time, and I and I thought, Oh, yeah, like because people are naming [00:05:00] a phase, I'm going to get over it, but never really did because it's not face. But that's all right. Yeah, it was high school was pretty horrible, I because I was always the single one out and everybody used to bully me. So I used to get beaten up and and bullied. I didn't really have many friends at all, and, um, I just resorted to playing piano in like the grand like in the Grand Hall, then just every single day, even during class, [00:05:30] and got really good. So that's really a bonus. But I didn't really make any friends or anything, and still, it's quite interesting to see the people who have bullied me in the past, and they've kind of switched on to realising that they did. And then I see them and they're like, they almost hide in shame of of what they kind of did. But, you know, at the time they were all kind of, like, pressured by their friends and stuff like that. So even when I went to like the counsellor or went to the principal, I would never [00:06:00] get any support because I was always the odd one out, and they couldn't really be bothered in a sense, to punish all of those the big group of girls who were bullying me. So yeah, it was very interesting. And it was only until year 13 when I actually finally people started kind of accepting me a bit more and accepting the fact that I'm not going to get into everybody and that they should really not, like, flatter themselves too much because they thought that I liked everybody [00:06:30] and, you know, but yeah, by the year 13, I guess it was that maturity level and yeah, definitely growing up kind of thing. But it was still bad in first year of uni. So yeah, what was that like So definitely I was at a hall of residence, so I didn't really make that many friends at all. You've really kind of thought that I was gonna get into them and stuff, which was really ridiculous. And that's when I kind of, like, fell in love with my partner at the moment. Like and [00:07:00] she kind of gave me the support to start to, like, really stand up to these people. And I had one of the RAS who obviously wasn't trained and and, you know, and you know, with queer stuff and just completely, you know, Bible slamming me pretty much about about how it it was, you know, disgusting and how I would go to hell. And it was just awful. And I was I was really lucky that I had [00:07:30] at least two of the RAS really stand up for me. And, you know, it was only until then that I realised that I should really start standing up for myself and and stop like hiding. And so I started getting confidence. And then no, nobody kind of started to bully me face to face. They would either like Facebook, message me or just use any social media to kind of bully me or or it was always that, like, behind closed doors kind of stuff. So you'd see them more than a group, and they would be looking at you, but that, you know, that they're talking [00:08:00] about you. So yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. So, subconsciously, I was I was always aware that, like, people might have been, like bitching about me and having a go or or just saying how how weird I was or or whatever. It was just really weird. Yeah, stronger for it now. So, um, So while you were at high school, did you? So you didn't have support from the school? Did you manage to meet any other, like, [00:08:30] queer people or, um, were you able to have, like, relationships? Like at that time of your life before you were like I actually did? Surprisingly, in year 10 in year nine, I tried to set up a A group with a friend at the high school. Um was like, Queer Straight Alliance. But unfortunately, I didn't Really I didn't really get along with the people who were queer, and I felt like just [00:09:00] because I'm queer doesn't mean that I should always be friends with all the queer people doesn't mean that I like it. It it's always the assumption that you'll always be friends with all of these people because, you know, you've all got the same common interests and everything, and you're you're very similar, but unfortunately, I'm a bit more of a solo person, so it didn't. Unfortunately, it didn't work out very well. But they she still created the group and and the issue with that I had [00:09:30] with the group was that I couldn't really get support because it wasn't really confidential so that I knew that even because the the maturity level was pretty low, that people would show up straight, people would show up to the group and they would find out who is in the group, and then they would tell everybody else. So there wasn't. I wish that the school really monitored it more that it wasn't just a it wasn't just as organised by students. If I look back on it now, otherwise [00:10:00] it would have been so much better if if you know it was confidential and you know, the people that have do have a safe space. But the other thing is, is that if people aren't confident to go to the groups and they'll never go, they'll never go because it is quite a big step. It's just kind of like the uniq stuff or or other stuff that that is involved with the queer community now. So and some people, some in some respects, I've kind of felt like fresh meat as well. And that's kind of the same feeling that I get now with some of the stuff, um, [00:10:30] especially down like down here in Dunedin some. Sometimes I feel like I am kind of fresh meat, even though I do have a partner and it's it's Yeah, it's kind of the dark, dark corners of the queer community, unfortunately, but yeah, in high school, I tried to get support as best as I could, but I didn't really know where to look. There wasn't really anything that I liked, or there was always somebody there who who [00:11:00] used to kind of bully me. I mean, some people, even in the queer community, did bully me quite quite badly, and every time I'd go to these groups, they would be there, so I couldn't really even start making new friends or getting support. Yeah, and I guess we were all quite young. So all of us were going through the same things. And so I wish that there would have been kind of like an older lesbian lady there or older, you know, older, queer people there that I could actually talk to about these experiences who who kind of [00:11:30] knows their stuff. But unfortunately there wasn't anything. So are you involved much with the queer community now that you're at uni now? I was quite I was last year in the beginning of this year, but I've kind of tapered it back a bit. I mean, it was kind of taking over my life a little bit. And it's quite interesting seeing the dynamics of last year versus this year. I mean, because I've I've taken a step [00:12:00] back. I can kind of see how I kind of don't really have that many friends anymore, because the like the people who I thought that used to my concept of friendship is really weird. So I I only kind of be friends with people if if there is that, like quite a deep connection. I I'm just I'm quite a solo person. I'm quite introverted. So I I had, [00:12:30] like, people who I thought were my friends last year aren't really my friends this year and they won't really talk to me. And I find it really weird that, you know, after a three month break away from from uni, you come back and you know you've got no friends and it's it's quite odd. Yeah, it's really weird and I just don't get it. I maybe it's just because I, I don't really I don't really get along with these people, but, I mean, sometimes I just can't deal with it. [00:13:00] I can't deal with constantly being on the ball about, you know, things that are going wrong within the world because I like keeping myself quite positive. So last year I had a really shitty, flat flatting situation, and I actually got, like, verbally abused for just anything you know, like my, like my sex by women as well. What the heck and you know, sexist women and men in in this flat and and also, you know, racist [00:13:30] and also, you know, highly homophobic. So last year I kind of needed that support, and that's why I kind of filtered my way into, like, the queer support stuff, and I got quite a lot of support from the people there. But now that I've kind of sorted my my stuff out, I don't really need it as much anymore. So I try not to go to things because I know that there are [00:14:00] People are going through their own kind of stuff, and I don't want to kind of drown myself because I if I try, if I I I'm much of a carer. So if I find out that somebody's, you know, in pain or hurting, or if they if they're going through something and I could help them, then I'll try to help them best I could, and I'll put more effort into other people than I will with myself, and then I'll just I'll end up like losing myself as well. So, yeah, I'm trying not to as much. Plus, I'm like things are getting much better now, uh, with [00:14:30] family and stuff. So they've met my partner. My grandparents have met my partner and they love her. So which is great for us, So things are going well at home and with uni and kind of getting stuff sorted now. But it took a while. Yeah. Yeah. Um So how does your family react after the initial kind of comment from your sister that you talked about once he did come out to them? Yeah, it was quite interesting. It was very [00:15:00] interesting. I mean, if I didn't have my sister meeting my partner beforehand, then I think it wouldn't. It would have gone completely different. I guess the the thing is like, my sister kind of realised it earlier in in about year, year, 11, year 12. And so she kind of paved the way for me, which was really awesome. So because she already kind of knew and she kind of had time to get over it. By the time it came to coming out to mum and Dad, she had I had back up, [00:15:30] which is really good. I really played it Well, it went really good. So then she she she met my partner and and absolutely loved her because she's crazy and artistic and awesome. And she kind of started convincing mum and Dad that it was OK like it's not a big deal like her partner is amazing. So, yeah, I think I would have been absolutely stuffed if I didn't have her, To be honest. Yeah, but do you [00:16:00] think it's harder to be a trans person in the South Island? Oh, definitely, Definitely I Because my flat. So my flatting situation last year was it was horrific. And all of them were from Invercargill. I'm I'm not gonna make a I'm gonna make really bad assumptions now about Invercargill or down South. But I just all the people that I've kind of had bad relationships [00:16:30] with and throughout university have all been kind of from Southland. I mean, I, I maybe that's just, you know, them down there. You know, the farming kind of culture, you know, high masculinity, you know, kind of kind of vibe. And yeah, I did. The guy in my flat was really awful. I mean, he even said to me that, you know, if I see a gay person on the street, I will bash them [00:17:00] up because they look gay, and they shouldn't dress gay, and therefore I won't bash them up, saying it's kind of like, Oh, if a if a girl wears a short skirt, then she deserves to get raped kind of kind of thing. And I hate that I really hate it. And it just drove me mad because knowing that this this guy had such strong views on, you know, a woman's place is in the kitchen. You know, queer people were worth, [00:17:30] like, didn't deserve to be in the in the closet kind of thing because it was gonna I just pretty much sit back and be like, Oh, we you know, maybe it's a front to your masculinity, so yeah, it it was it was quite interesting. And all the girls as well were a bit backwards as well, unfortunately, But in Nelson, people are I find that they're much more accepting now. But, I mean, my partner's from Wellington. So when I go to Wellington, nobody [00:18:00] gives a shit. You know, nobody actually cares or or or in Auckland, nobody really cares at all, because when you walk down Cuba street holding hands with your girlfriend, you don't get those side glances that you do. If you walk down the street in Dunedin because I will get cat called and I will get the lesbian comments, and I will, you know, out of a car out of a car door. But the other thing is is that I guess the alcohol gives people confidence as well. So, like, if I'm walking down, um, down the main [00:18:30] street in Dunedin and I look like a lesbian, then they will say something like, Oh, like, where's your girlfriend? Or or, you know, like, rug muncher or something like that? So it's that constant look at you could keep you go put quite a lot of energy into looking out for kind of stuff. So, yeah, so, yeah. No, it really does. So, um, what do you think about the way queer and Trans people are portrayed in the media? [00:19:00] And if we think of media as, like, all sorts news, TV movies, But this is gonna be very stereotypical. So, you know, apparently in the media, there are there are butch lesbians. There are fem lesbians and it is Allen DeGeneres. And so it it's quite it's really interesting to see how the media portrays how gay men are quite [00:19:30] you know, the high voice. Very, you know, they know their fashion. They are, you know, fashion designers, and they're all a bit them so and they can't be there. There's not apparently, in the media. There's no such thing as a kind of, you know, a big, big, strong burly, you know, gay gay man. And I think it's even worse for the Trans people. It must be awful just hearing some of the stories [00:20:00] from what I've heard about, you know, the about when they walk down the street like, Is that a man or a woman? Or I just can't believe it. And they do that and even in in media as well. And it's amazing just how they portray the trans people, that all the trans, um, you know, male to female are drag queens. Or, you know, it's all Priscilla Queen of the desert kind [00:20:30] of stuff. But yeah, I. I think it's awful the way that they portray everybody as being. They definitely portray us as a minority, but I think we're bigger than that. You know, there's more gay people out there like there's more people out there than you think, but unfortunately in the media, it drives people to believe that if they don't look a certain way if this gay guy isn't isn't really good at fashion advice or, [00:21:00] you know, helping with your love life or whatever. Um, then people, people really assume those things about about the queer community, and it kind of makes it hard when you are trying to come out or if you're quite feminine, like a feminine lesbian, then they'll say, Oh, you're too pretty to be a lesbian And it it just drives those stereotypes completely. You know, people can look at the way that they are. Their sexuality is not worn [00:21:30] on their clothing or their hair or their face or whatever. They're just people. So yeah, it's a lot of a lot of stereotyping a lot. But do you see, um, your identity reflected at all? Or has there been any like characters or storylines that you can relate to? Oh, definitely, definitely. So I. I go off shopping quite a bit. So my mom refused to let me back in the car if I bought a shirt because she said [00:22:00] that if I wear that shirt around her, then everybody will know that my daughter is a lesbian. I was like, I'm just wearing a shirt for God, it's a shirt. It doesn't mean anything. But at first my parents thought that now Oh, that explains the short here. Uh, that explains the no makeup, you know, that explains the the, you know, the shirts and the chucks and the whatever you know. And I was just like it doesn't it really Doesn't [00:22:30] you know, I've had short hair for, like, seven years? It's fine. Like, I don't suit long hair, you know, it's just the way it is, you know, you find, you know, older people have, you know, short hair or whatever, but, Oh, gosh, it just drives me up the wall. Other things would definitely be like, 00, if only she grew out her hair, then she'd look straight or, you know, that kind of thing. And and I guess I kind of think that I look like a lesbian, like those stereotypes with the [00:23:00] short hair, short hair, you know, kind of shortish kind of kind of stereotypes. But And I can tell I can tell that people know that I'm a lesbian because they say, you know, they call me, they they Oh, you know, kind of thing down the street so I must look like one. But that's only that's only put in place because of the media about. You know, that's how lesbians are meant to look. But we can look however we want. And when [00:23:30] I wear a dress, um, when I wear dresses, people can't believe it. They're like, Oh, gosh, you look actually normal or or my sister said to me, um, at her at her 21st she said, I don't want you wearing a shirt. I want you to wear a dress And I was like, I don't like wearing dresses because it's really uncomfortable. You know? Maybe I don't like, you know, accidentally flashing my knickers at somebody Or, you know, maybe it's a little bit too breezy down there for my liking. You know, it's like for me, clothing [00:24:00] is a comfort thing. But for other people, they think that it's that it's just me looking like a dyke. You know, it's painful. And what do you think about the marriage Equality bill passing? So it kind of gives me hope now that I can that it can be more normalised in society, that it is OK to have you know you know two wives and, like two husbands together, you know kind of thing. [00:24:30] Um, I love it. I remember the day it came out. I was so proud. I mean, I feel like I like I. I haven't really because I wasn't in the seventies or eighties doing like the work towards it. And now, knowing that, like our past, is as family it's amazing seeing the look like when you look at the people's faces who have been from their generation now that they can get, you know, married to their partner [00:25:00] of, you know, like what, 20 like five years or something like that. You know all those awesome love stories. It's just, uh it's just really heartwarming it it's hopefully it will change society's viewpoints on on marriage. I really hope. I mean, it's gonna still take time, but yeah, again, it especially I find it especially important because of the adoption laws as well. So that, um because previously you know, the [00:25:30] if one partner leaves and the child is to the other person's name, but the other person has no legal right with him. Then that's not very fair. If they split up and then you know, one person will take the kid, and then they can't really fight against them because they have no legal rights. So legally, they're not, you know, their their mother. So, yeah, I find it really important for the adoption stuff, which is fantastic. So, yeah. Um, are you interested in marriage and adopting or [00:26:00] kids? Are you be what? What are your hopes for your future after you finish uni? Um, I definitely hope to get a good job, As as one would a good job, actually, utilising my degree would be would be quite essential. Um, I, uh um geography. So yeah. Environmental management. So trying to get into the mining industry, So Yeah. Great. Not good for the partner. She doesn't want to go to Australia, unfortunately, [00:26:30] but that's fine. Talk about that for her. I really hope that I stay with the the partner that I that I have at the moment. She's amazing. She's so smart, you know, she don't like I thought fine arts degrees were at first were, you know, kind of lowkey pointless. I mean, that was just my perception for my family. Like, why would you get into the art industry. You know, you've got a You gotta kind of work part of it. Yeah, she's doing really well. And I really hope that one day I can put a ring on [00:27:00] it, you know, even though she I said to her, If if she doesn't put a ring on my finger in the next five years, then she's cut. So but, yeah, it's because we do long distance. I've really got a strong connection with her and she knows my past and everything, and it's great. I really, really hope that I can get married to her. And the other thing I've been hoping for was I really would like to have kids for my for myself. [00:27:30] But key point I I really don't feel very comfortable using, um, the usual ways of, like using a Don a donation for of sperm. I really don't. I'm not very. I'm very uneasy about that because of what happened in my past, um, to kind of do with that. So I I I hope that the new technology would enable, you know, taking an egg from myself and an egg from my partner and then creating a little female little [00:28:00] baby that can be put inside me. You know, I, I like that to give us. I would hate to not have any of her qualities and in in my in, you know, the child. Because she is amazing. And I don't think I could find a guy that's that's even close to what she's like, you know? But yeah, I hope fingers crossed. Hopefully I'm in the right time that that can be possible without spending too much money. So it's a money thing. So, [00:28:30] yeah, um, if you could give a message to other young people who are going through similar things, you went through being really badly bullied. What would it be? It gets better. It does it. It really does get better. I think it's a It is a maturity thing you got to understand is, you know, you know these people, you know, like I said earlier, how these people will look at you when you get back to uni and you see them and they will look at you like [00:29:00] they are in the dirt because of what they've realised that they did to you. I mean, I, I was so highly suicidal. I I'm surprised I'm still here today because if I didn't, I just It's so important now, like, life is so important and I can't imagine even taking it for a second. But, you know, back then I, I thought that was the first thing that that I should do just But no, [00:29:30] I think it's I think you just got to be strong. You gotta really? I mean, even if you're not quite extroverted or or whatever, just be confident internally and just be strong And, like, try to find those support networks and those other people that you can connect with, because that was pretty important as well in second year. I mean, I was pretty pretty on the rail. So, like if I didn't have queer support, I'd probably I don't know where I'd be today. I'd probably be not even back at university. So you know, that's a whole opportunity, [00:30:00] miss, But yeah, you gotta keep strong. Yeah, definitely. Um, maybe to finish up. What's your favourite thing about being a queer person in the South Island? Oh, goodness. So awesome. It's so it's It's really cool. Like I. I like finally, because I've kind of sorted my stuff out now. It's really like it's quite important to me because, you know, my partner is so key in my life and [00:30:30] in my family, and I think that that I can't I can't imagine not even introducing her to my parents because that's such a big secret. That's that's the other advice I would give is Don't hold secrets against your parents because they they'll find out they know when stuff is happening. They know, and they will. Oh, that's right. That's what they'll say to you like, Oh, that that makes so much more sense. So yeah, definitely no secrets. But yeah, I love I love being a queer [00:31:00] person. I mean, sometimes I don't like aspects of the community, but I'm sure that other people feel that way as well. I mean, not everybody is perfect, and you're not always gonna find the right group of people. I mean, it doesn't always have to be the queer people that you be friends with. I mean, you can still have normal, like, you know, the the the normal kind of hetro friendships going on. But yeah, I think it's quite important to, like, share our diversity. Yeah, [00:31:30] I mean, for some people, it might be quite hard to share the diversity because they're probably not OK with the big flags and the parades and everything like that. But I've kind of going to, like, love that now. So, yeah, I'm quite proud because it is quite key to me that I've kind of gone through all this stuff, So, yeah, I think it will be key to other people as well. I think people can reflect on the same things. Awesome. Thank you so much. All right. Um, is there anything else you wanted to say? [00:32:00] Oh, definitely. I'm just gonna say trigger warning now for, um, just stuff to do with the rape, just to just make sure that people are in, like, a safe situation or when they do hear this recording. Um, because this this might trigger some stuff. So, um, I was pretty much in year 13. I went through quite a lot of stuff, and it's only until I got through second year that I realised, Really, What had happened to me? Uh, So what I what I kind of figured out in [00:32:30] myself was that I was suppressing some some memories about what had happened to me in my past. So in year 13 I I was I got Really, um I was pretty much I was drinking at the time, and I got coerced into drinking more and more, and and I heard a guy say in the in the back before, while I was getting quite quite drunk, um, that Oh, I'm going to have sex with a lesbian tonight. You know, I'm [00:33:00] gonna do this. And it was really disgusting. Now that I look back on that and I and I know the reason why he did it and so it would, And the girl who I was the partner that I was with at the time she was I thought that she was meant to be looking out for me, but she didn't really look out for me at all. I mean, she pretty much allowed it to happen. And so, you know, I did get raped by this guy, and I didn't want it. I've never had sex with a guy before [00:33:30] because I wasn't. I wasn't straight I. I didn't want it at all. And it pains me now just to think about it. The fact that he did it because he wanted to quote, Take my virginity because I was a lesbian and, you know, that's just bullshit. I find that so awful and that I thought that at the time, like afterwards, I just blamed myself for it because if I wasn't a lesbian, [00:34:00] and this is how I got kind of taught that I should take responsibility for my own actions, that if I was a lesbian, then it's kind of OK, you know, and that's awful to think. And now I look back on it. I'm like, Gosh, like that's that's horrific and I, I just I just hope that that anybody anybody out there who who does, who has gotten, you know, sexually assaulted by a guy who is a lesbian and and that's the same [00:34:30] thing that's kind of happened to them, that they just stay strong because, I mean, I'm I'm much better for it now. Like I. I can't believe I went through that. I went through. I got some. I got lots of counselling. I'm still getting counselling today at Ra Crisis, and they're really supportive. Great, queer, friendly. They're amazing, but I still can't help but blame myself if I like that. If I wasn't [00:35:00] like that, I sometimes I think, like, if I wasn't a lesbian, then maybe this shit wouldn't happen. And I just I hate that, you know, because it's just awful. So, yeah, that's all I kinda wanna Yeah, don't. But yeah, I think that talking about it is really important and and like, makes me stronger, you know? So, yeah.

IRN: 798
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/south_mark.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004302
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089596
TITLE: Mark - South
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Dunedin; Ellen DeGeneres; Ellen Page; London; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Queenstown; Rule Foundation; South (series); Tabby Besley; UniQ (Otago); United Kingdom; University of Otago; bisexual; closeted; coming out; community; facebook. com; faggot; family; friends; gay; gender studies; heterosexual; homophobia; homophobic bullying; homosexual; human rights; identity; internalised homophobia; internet; language; marriage equality; media; normalisation; parents; pornography; queer; school; school prom; sexuality; shame; social media; social networking; support; transphobia; tumblr. com; university; wellness; youth
DATE: 8 May 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Dunedin, Dunedin, Otago
CONTEXT: In this podcast Mark talks about early years in Queenstown, coming out to family members and being bullied at university.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How would you describe your identity? A gay male student. I don't know what, um, Do you think the language that we've used, um, about to describe our sexual orientation has changed much over time? Um, I think so. Probably. Um, we're in a position where we can use the word queer. Probably more. Um, like, appropriately, Um, even [00:00:30] though I know in the UK, it still hasn't been sort of like it's still an offensive word, but And I also know a few friends who, um, they identify as, like, homosexual women, but they don't identify as lesbian. They just don't like the word. And so I guess we are in a bit of a different place now, but yeah. When did you first become aware of your sexual orientation? I think about the age of 15. I, um it's [00:01:00] kind of hard, though, because, um, I come from a really very liberal family. Um, and we've had, like, quite a lot of gay people around, um, like in my upbringing, like gay friends of my parents and things like that. And they always stress that it's fine. Um, and so for a really long time, I wasn't sure if, um, because I was so accepting of gay culture, I guess that I never really [00:01:30] thought about it. I just kind of was I was like, Gay is ok, straight is OK, um, and and then I, um Yeah, I guess I remember. Sort of, Um, funnily enough, I was watching porn, and, um, I remember thinking I'm more attracted to the guy and the girl. Um, but it took me a really long time to sort of, you know, properly understand [00:02:00] that, Um, and for a really long time, I genuinely thought I was bisexual. Um, I know that lots of, um, people consider or used by sexuality as a stepping stone. Not to say, like, obviously, bisexuality is a you know, um, but I genuinely thought I was, um, only because I suddenly had this interest in the other sex. But I think because, um, you know, heterosexuality is just [00:02:30] everywhere, and it's not so much shoved down your throat, but it is very much like the norm. And so for a really long time, I just thought, you know, I was both, um should have Cotten on that. I wasn't interested in any of the girls in my school, but I don't know. And then I think I properly sort of accepted that. I was, um, that I was gay and not interested in girls. Um, around the age of 18, [00:03:00] Um, did you have it coming out? Um, kind of, um I came out to my I think I came out to my friends first. Um, a few of my really close friends. Um, no. Sorry. I came out to a friend in high school who, um, was by he identified as by um, and I remember talking to him about it, actually, no. So I'm gonna rewind once again. [00:03:30] Um, there was someone a friend of a friend who lived in Dunedin, and he was openly gay. Um, and I remember I was just talking to him on Facebook. Um, and I was just like, Hey, I think I might be gay. And I felt like I didn't really know this guy. And so I felt like a kind of console in him because he would just sort of, you know, he didn't know much about my life. I could just talk about it to someone who was openly [00:04:00] gay, and we just kind of chatted about it, and then that made me go and talk to that friend who was in my school who identified as Bi and I talked to him about it as well. And, um, he just kind of told me what it was like for him. Um and then I guess it's kind of that snowball effect of the more people I told the easier it kind of got, especially once I told my closest friends because that was, you know, those are the people that meant the most to me, Um, in terms of my friend group. Um, And then, um, my [00:04:30] first family member I told was my sister, um, my parents had gone away for a few weeks somewhere, and we were eating dinner lasagna, And, um, I was telling her about, um, a story about this guy who, um he was sort of like he was on the rugby team. Um, very like, straight and [00:05:00] really lovely guy, Um, and quite a good friend. And we were all quite intoxicated at a party. And he, um, just got, like, quite close and not inappropriate things, but he was He was, you know, um, crossing the line of what you just do to, like another guy friend. If you were straight, maybe, and the other. You know, um, so I remember thinking [00:05:30] I wasn't quite as drunk as he was. And I remember thinking, I'll tell him to stop now because he's gonna severely regret this in the morning. Just I knew his other friends They weren't going to be particularly accepting if he suddenly was outed or anything like that. So I just thought this wasn't particularly a good idea, and maybe I'd hit him up about it the next day. So I did. And he was like, I, I think I'm by I don't really know what to do. And he was really stressed out about it. And [00:06:00] so I was telling my sister this story, Um, but as I was, um, the reason he sort of like started coming on to me is because at this point, I was relatively known to to be openly out at high school. Um, and I was telling my sister this story, but because I hadn't told her that I was out, there was sort of this, like missing link in the story of why he'd be coming up to me. Um, and then I sort of got to the point where the link was just going to be way too obvious. And so I paused and was like, Is this about [00:06:30] to happen? And then I was, like, entirely, I think I'm, um I think I'm attracted to guys as well. Um, and then my sister and I are really close. We I consider her one of my best friends. She's 4. 5 years older than me. So she's kind of always, like, been my like, older sister, um, in a like, protective kind of way. Um, and I remember we just, like, kind of looked at each other, and then both of us just started crying. And then both of us started [00:07:00] laughing because we were like, Why are we crying? Um, I knew that I could come out to her. It was more of just sucking it up and sort of doing it. Um, I remember Ellen was talking to Ellen Page. Um, Alan Generous was talking to Ellen Page, and there was they were just discussing how, um you think for a really long time you've kind of accepted in yourself that you actually carry around a lot of shame. Um, and you can't really pin what that shame is [00:07:30] about, but when you come out, it's sort of like all of it goes away. And I don't really know what the like mechanisms behind that is. But I feel like it's just some sort of, I don't know by not being able to to openly say it. There is some sort of like something is holding you back from it. Like, Why would you Why would you not if you weren't somewhat ashamed about it. And so I think that maybe that's why I just started crying because, [00:08:00] um, I knew she'd be OK with it. And I don't know why I hadn't told her first or even, you know, when the idea first popped into my head a few years back, Um and so I think it was just kind of that release of finally being able to tell someone who's really, really close to me and who would understand the whole time and be really supportive. And so we talked about it for a while, and it was really lovely, and it was just I don't know it felt very natural. [00:08:30] Um, and then I didn't come out to my parents for ages afterwards, Like a year and a half or so. But I, um I'm also really close to my mum, So I was like, Well, I'm not gonna go to uni without telling her beforehand. So I went and she was reading a book and I sat down next to her, and I just sat there for, like, an hour in silence. Um, and then she looked up and she was like, Mark, you've literally just been sitting there doing nothing just next to me. What are you doing? And I was like, I kind of got it. I want to talk to you about something. And she was like, What's [00:09:00] up? And I just told her after another long pause, Um, I was like, Oh, I think I said how would you feel if I brought a guy home rather than a girl? Um, and she was like, Well, you know, I wouldn't mind at all. And, um and I was like, OK, because I think I'm bisexual. And she was like, cool. And it was a very sort of [00:09:30] I don't know. I think she didn't want to do the whole, um we love you anyway, because that almost implies that, um there was sort of something wrong with it in the first place. And I think that Mom by no mum is a very stubborn and very opinionated person. Um, and she's so lovely, but I can just I. I just knew what she meant by being so calm about it. Um, [00:10:00] because that's the thing is that that's how she raised me and my sister to see homosexuality as like, absolutely no, There's no difference between your sexual orientation and who you are and where you fit in the world. So, um, there was that and then I didn't come out off to my dad for a really long time. Um, mostly because my relationship with my dad was a little bit It was fine. It was more just that, um, I [00:10:30] he's a very typical bloke. He loves his sports. And, um, he's like, a bit of a builder. And, um, I don't know. I think we just look very different people. Um, the thing we bonded over was like action movies that we'd go and see in the cinema and that was that felt almost like that was just about it. Um, and there was kind of a lot of pent up hostility inside of me towards him. We used to argue a lot of the time about nothing in particular, and I think I can now [00:11:00] pin that back to not being out to him. Um, because ever since coming out to him, it's been fine and I just don't feel like there's this pressure behind. I don't know. I used to just snap at him, um, for no apparent reason. I think it's almost like I was this close to just being like I'm gay and you won't understand. But no, it's just not the case. But, um, it turns out, um, when I think when I came out to my mum, she was like, Have you told Dad? And I said no And she [00:11:30] said, Do you want me to tell him or like, How do you are you going to tell him? Um, and I said, I don't know if I'm ready and she said, Well, that's fine. But, um, I don't lie. And if he asks me for whatever reason, he would ask me, I can't tell him no, because it's not going to feel right. And I said, Well, that's fine. And then so, apparently, like a few, like, I don't know, six months later or something like that. Dad did ask Mom and Mom said yes, but then Dad didn't come to me about it because he was waiting for me to [00:12:00] come to him. And Mom didn't tell me that he had come, even though she swore she did. So I was talking to Mom on, um, on one night and I told her I think I am gay. I don't think I'm by She was like, to be honest, I thought that the whole time I did like, you don't show any particular interest in girls. And I was like, Cool. I feel like I need to tell Dad and the like that I'm anything. And she was like, he knows to which I freaked out. I was like, What? How long? [00:12:30] And then she was like, Oh, for like I don't know eight months now he's known, and I was like, Are you kidding me? And she was like, I told you and I was like, No, you definitely did it. I would know if you told me. Um but no, it was really nice. Um, and then I remember coming home after that, and it just was so it was like the air had completely cleared. Um, I don't know if Mum had talked to Dad after the phone call, Um, because my dad [00:13:00] and I never talked about the whole, like, coming out thing. I just came home and just gave them both a massive hug, and it just felt really different. Um, and I was just like, I don't I haven't really argued with my dad since in, you know, maybe about, like, small bickers, but nothing as as it used to be. And I would just talk about things you know very comfortably about him and got my I had my first boyfriend and he came and met my parents, and it was all just [00:13:30] I don't know, it was just all really natural, but that was my coming out process. It was very long and sort of stretched out, I think just because, um, I don't know. I just think because I was in a liberal family, it was a very It's almost a weird situation to be in because obviously it's lovely. Um, and I'm so thankful that that is how my family is. Because I know that that's not the case with so many other people. Um, [00:14:00] but I think it just it's almost like I wasn't pushed to do it because it was just sort of like, Oh, well, um, but I don't know. I'm glad I'm here now. So, whereabouts did you grow up, go to school? Um, so I'm from London originally, um, I went to Hampstead parochial school. Um, and then when I was seven going on eight, we moved to New Zealand. So that was in 2000, and we moved straight to Queenstown. And that's [00:14:30] where I lived up until going to uni in Dunedin. Um, so, yeah, just grew up in Queenstown, mostly. Do you think it's harder or different growing up, um, in the South Island and And we like, compared to the thing is I kind of see queen sound like a little bit of a jewel in the South Island. I, um my experience was pretty [00:15:00] pretty great. And I'm on the UN Q committee here, and I have gone and talked to people. And I do gender studies, um, as my I'm in my honours year of gender studies. And so we've done a lot of talk about sexuality. And, um, I think in first year, we did a bit about education systems and sexuality, and I remember we all had to sort of, Well, we didn't have to, but in the tutorial, we talked about what our experiences were like in [00:15:30] high school, and my high school was very supportive. They encouraged you to take same sex partners to the formal if you wanted to, um, in year seven. So, like, the first year of high school, this guy came around and took us all to the library, and he just sort of explained that homosexuality is fine. Um, statistically, three of you guys there was, like, 30 of us. Um, three of you guys will be gay, which is really funny, because, um, the two the the rugby guy and the guy [00:16:00] who was identified as bisexual, um, were both, like sitting there. Um, none of us were out at this point, so it's quite funny, but, um, yeah, um, So it was, you know, it was awesome. High school absolutely amazing. Um, And then I figured out well, I discovered from other people telling me what their experiences were like in Christchurch or, um, in cargo or Gore, that it was not the same. And it wasn't [00:16:30] great at all. Um, and it was actually quite, like, terrible, um, which was so, so upsetting to hear about, um and it just made me really, really grateful for what I had to like I happened to experience. I think it might be just because Queenstown has this massive influx of people from all over the world. And you can't really be, um, reserved about anything in particular. You get people [00:17:00] of all religions of all races and of all sexual orientations, coming and going, we have gay ski week. It is just a very liberal sort of town in the middle of other towns. That might not be, um did you experience? Kind of. Did you see any differences? And that when you moved to think maybe it's different because you I think you see I in Queenstown. There's only one high school, so it brings people it brings [00:17:30] sort of like everyone is in the same high school. You've got people of every, um I don't know, sort of income bracket. And, um, everyone of you know, any religion or anything like that. Once again, it's all just in the same high school. And so I did actually have, um, a group of people who were not nice to me, and they did bully me and I, you know, they would yell faggot down, you [00:18:00] know, the street or whatever, but it was drastically outnumbered by close friends or just people who were very who, you know, had positive, um, attitudes towards homosexuality. And, um yeah, so that was fine. But then moving to Dunedin, I felt like that gap wasn't as drastic as Dunedin brings people from [00:18:30] Wellington and Auckland which I think are in general, probably a little bit more liberal in terms of this, um in terms of, you know, LGBT Q, um, culture and also people from places that aren't so accepting. And my experience in my hall, for example, there was a lot of homophobia, um, turns out like I didn't expect to ever go back in the closet. But I did. In the first semester of [00:19:00] going to my hall, it was really surprising because I was very like in high school I was so vocal about, like, if anyone even was slightly bigoted, I'd be like, trying to tear him down and was very, you know, um, and I just didn't expect it, but I was suddenly just felt, so it just didn't feel right. There was another, um, gay guy at the hall that I was in, and he was constantly bullied, but because he, um he didn't, [00:19:30] um He didn't make any efforts to socialise with anyone. He would stay in his room, and then he had his own separate friends outside of the hall kind of thing. Um and so it's almost like they kind of dehumanised him. And they used him just as like a you know, they just targeted him because it was easy. But then it turns out that people did know about my sexuality and no one cared, and I just was mistaken. But that's I guess the problem with homophobia is that you don't know sometimes if saying, Oh, that's gay. Um, talking [00:20:00] about something, you know, you're trying to equivalate it with with the word lame. Um, you just don't know. Especially if you're closeted. It was kind of like eye opening because I was almost chucked back in the closet and sort of saw what it was like to see homophobia around you. And I don't know, It was it Was it sucked? Um, but I did have also a bunch of really good friends there who are super liberal and really lovely and very supportive. So but yeah, And now [00:20:30] I have got a really large group of, you know, I found the The good people in Dunedin. Um, is it important to you to have kind of, like a sense of community and belonging? Um, I think so. I don't think it has to be people who identify the same as me. Personally. I just think it's people who are supportive and who I know who. I, um very sort of stably know what their opinions are. Um, I need [00:21:00] to know that if someone was, you know, if someone yelled fagging down the street that that friend, regardless of what their orientation was, would be like, That's not OK and even yell out like, don't say that or something, You know, I don't want I don't know. I just like that sense of, um, sort of support or knowing that there is support, even if you don't particularly need it at that time, just to know that it's there is really important to me. Um, but yeah. Um, and you feel like there's lots of support here at the uni? [00:21:30] I think so, Yeah. I. I think it's great. I mean, there's clear support and there's uniq and, um oh, yeah, I think it's it's really good. Um, do you see, or have you been part of, um, social media as a way that young people in New Zealand are kind of connecting about their sexuality and issues that they're facing at all? Uh, I mean, like, I'm on the uni Q page, um, which I post [00:22:00] on frequently. There's also this and LGBT Q, um, sort of blog type thing on Facebook. Um, they I am constantly just on my own news feed and posting things I don't know about news around the world or something that's to do with it. So I guess I'm relatively active in terms of that, and then I see it obviously come back from people who are interested in the same thing as well. So yeah, I guess I do see it. Especially with the especially with Facebook, To be honest, only [00:22:30] with Facebook. Really? I mean, I see it on Tumblr that I don't know how you want to describe it. A social media site. Um, but that's sort of more international rather than I mean, Facebook is as well, but because I only know people nationally and you know, so yeah, and what do you think about how queer and trans people represented in the media? And if we think of media as news, TV, movies, books, all sorts? Um, I think, um, [00:23:00] it's getting better in terms of a more, um, like it's being represented more essentially, um, and it's starting to feel a little less like, um, like, obviously, it is still a minority, but it's starting to feel less like a tiny pool. Um, that people are, you know, considering that yes, there are gay people walking [00:23:30] around the street. It's not just sort of this like they'll be part of this community. That's somewhere, you know. Um, so I guess that's good. I think trans people are still severely underrepresented. Um, it's kind of hard because I surround myself with people who are very active with with spreading this like queer and trends news. Um, on my tumblr, I follow things. That stuff is always coming up and then for other people because [00:24:00] they aren't interested in it as to the degree that I am, it's hard to judge where because I'm seeing it everywhere. But that's because I'm choosing to find it. Um, but I still think it is really underrepresented, um, trans in particular. And I think transphobia is still a massive area that needs tackling because, I don't know. I just think it's people are very ignorant when it comes to that stuff. So are there any solutions [00:24:30] to that? I think, um, it's hard to know what the most effective solution is, But just to make people more aware, um, I don't know. Maybe it's just because I don't know how to like I don't know what would be the most effective way of talking about it without sounding preachy or, you know, I just I don't know. I want In my ideal world, everything would be kind of normalised that it would. It wouldn't be a surprise to be [00:25:00] like this is, you know, a trans female trans male or or queer or just anything it can. There shouldn't be any, like, surprise or shock factor to it. And we're getting there. I feel with, um, sort of the L GB side, But the tea still needs maybe more exposure or something like that. Um, I don't know. It's hard to say. Um, what do you want to do after uni? What are your kind of hopes for your future? [00:25:30] Um well, I've got my undergrad degree in psychology and gender studies, and my Post grad currently is my honours in gender studies. And next year, I hope to do a personal trainers course. Um, so somewhere in the future, I'd love to somehow combine mental, social and physical in one sort of area. I don't know. I'd love to, like, have kind of, like a wellness centre that had a [00:26:00] gym, but it would also have sort of support, um, and be very welcoming to everyone. And I don't know, it's obviously so far in the future, but I definitely have a really high interest in fitness as well as sort of like social things. And yeah, somehow I want to combine them, but yeah, we'll see. Um, how do you feel about the marriage? Equality, bill? Passing? Was that something that was important to you? Yeah, definitely. I was in the, um the room watching it [00:26:30] being talked about. It was very important to me. Um, I want to know that I can get married, um, here. And I want that for other people. And I think that that's just sort of a reflection on the country's attitudes towards this in the first place. Um, you know, just II. I think by putting it in the open that, you know, there were all these people who wanted to have the ability to marry each other, really brought it to the surface. And for those [00:27:00] people who just don't, you know, they're not. They're not homophobic, but they don't involve themselves in, um, LGBT Q stuff. It really brought to light the issues that they might not have considered before, And I kind of think it just reflected that there are a lot more of us, um, than some people might have expected and that it is actually, you know, human rights that were being sort of taken away and I think that's awesome. And it's [00:27:30] almost like that snowball effect, because you just, you know, And then there was England. I mean, the UK that was doing it as well. And I just It's it's just awesome to see who's like on the right side of history kind of thing. So, yeah, um, if you could give a message to other young people who are struggling with their identity or coming out, what would it be? This is so hard, Um, because I think just everyone's experiences are so different. But, [00:28:00] um, just the thing that helped me the most was having the support of you like just a few people, and just to just to be able to trust them completely, made all the difference to me. It just, I don't know, talk to talk to someone you trust. Um, and it just just that first step will make it so much easier. Um, it's [00:28:30] just I don't know. Everyone is in such different situations, so it's so hard because I hate to say the wrong thing, but for me, it was just taking it slowly, Um and yeah, just coming out to the people you trust the most is makes the whole world of difference. Um and yeah, that's that's all I can and maybe to finish up. What's your favourite thing about being a queen person living in the South? Or, um, I think [00:29:00] there it's quite exciting to be, um, a part of something that's changing, like, right now, Um, sort of like the um LGBT Q stuff is very topical at the moment, and it's really exciting to have the opportunity to really involve yourself in something you believe in so strongly. Um, I just Yeah, I. I love that. I can also [00:29:30] be in a position where I'm comfortable with myself and I have my really close friends and hopefully through that I can offer some support to people who might not be at the position that I am in. Um, because I think that that's like, I don't know. That's a really it's a really high sense of responsibility, and you can either choose to, um, take it on or not. And I think what I like is just to be able to be there, and for everyone else who's in my position to be this beacon of [00:30:00] what that it's OK and that it gets better and that you can just be that what I was talking about with that person that, um, can support you. You can be that person for someone else, and I don't know, I think that's probably it.

IRN: 797
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ATL REF: OHDL-004301
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089595
TITLE: Dusty - South
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Dunedin; G. B. F. (Gay Best Friend); It Gets Better; Macklemore; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Mary Lambert; Mean Girls (movie); Otago; Q4 (Queer Coffee at Four); Rule Foundation; Russia; South (series); Stuff; Tabby Besley; UniQ (Otago); bullying; camp; children; coming out; community; denial; effeminate; facebook. com; faggot; fear; friends; gay; growing up; homophobia; homophobic bullying; hope; identity; isolation; labels; language; law; marriage equality; media; music; parties; politics; prejudice; queer; queer straight alliance (QSA); relationships; representation; role model; school; sex education; sexuality; social media; social networking; suicide; transgender; youth
DATE: 8 May 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Dunedin, Dunedin, Otago
CONTEXT: In this podcast Dusty talks about growing up and being out in Dunedin.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um how do you describe your identity? I'm gay. Do you think the language that we've used about our identities has changed much over time? Yeah, definitely, I think. Well, maybe not. Gays describing themselves or queer people describing themselves, um, other people describing us has definitely changed from being a really negative thing. Like or a really euphemistic thing. Like flowery or something like that. A long time ago to being neutral or like yeah, to [00:00:30] be gay or queer is being more neutral. I think queer is entering the non queer community vocabulary a lot more these days. And when did you first become aware of your sexual orientation? Um, quite young. It's embarrassing, but I was in denial for a long time, like I'm, like, really obviously gay. Um, but I was still yeah, in denial about it for a long time. But in year 12, 1 of my friends, um didn't really, like, [00:01:00] come out. He just, like, started going out and having sex with boys and then, like talking about it without, like, saying I'm gay, everyone. So that sort of that definitely made me feel comfortable to, like, talk about the same thing without coming out. So it was like a nice, easy transition. Yeah, really easy, actually. So cool. Um, when did you start? Kind of telling people, or maybe showing, Um, probably year 13. So when I was 17, what kind of reactions did you get [00:01:30] from people? Oh, everyone already knew because I'm, like, really camped, but, um, yeah, no surprise at all. You had always known Did you experience any kind of homophobia? Um, in high school? Yeah, a lot. Um, every day I was, like, really miserable. I wanted to kill myself every day because, um, everyone was horrible to me. They just would like when I was walking past it, like, say, like, faggot and stuff, stuff like that to me all day, every day, Um, [00:02:00] until maybe like year 11. Um, so it wasn't really the people in my year as much. Maybe the people in the year above me, and then when it got to about year 10 or year 11, they sort of, like, got over it. And then the people in the year below me started doing it. Um, but yeah, definitely. By year, 13 like that would never happen to me at high school, and year 12 didn't really ever happen. So yeah, they just needed to, like, grow up and get over it. Yeah. So do you think [00:02:30] that was because people were maturing or is it to do it all with how you were, like, feeling more confident or probably just the other people like it probably just wasn't fun anymore, I guess for them because they, like, grow up. Yeah. Um And did your school ever kind of do anything about it, or was there any support for people like you? Um, there wasn't like any, like queer support in particular. But there was, like bullying support, I guess in general, just like the [00:03:00] guidance counsellor And like, tell a teacher or something like that. But when I was young, it was just so Oh, what's the word like Universal That it was like I couldn't have told on every single person. There were just too many, and I didn't even know what any of them Really. But, um by like, year 11 or 12 when it would like, occasionally happen, then I would, like tell on them and they would get in trouble. So yeah, they they definitely weren't like to me or anything like that. [00:03:30] Um, do you think there could have been, like, a cool impact if there was a, like, a quest Alliance group or anything like that in your school? Um, I don't think anyone would have joined it, but if there was, like, they had people in it definitely. Yeah. Whereabouts. Did you go to school? Um, in Dunedin. What do you think? It's like being a young person in the South Island. Do you think there's kind of differences? Hm. I guess so. There are probably a lot less queer people here, Um, than in, like, [00:04:00] bigger places like Christchurch, Wellington, especially Auckland. Um, I don't know. Yeah, I guess so. Did you have any, um, education in your health classes around sexual orientation or gender stuff? Uh, I was overseas when we did sex education, so Yeah, I missed out on that, but probably I think it's probably pretty neutral. Yeah, I'm not sure. Um, have you [00:04:30] been involved with any, like, queer community groups or anything like that? No. I tried going to one in high school, but, um, all the people there just seemed really like young and immature and like, kind of trashy. Like they just sort of, like, broke all the rules. And, like, they, for example, they weren't allowed to smoke during this, like, one hour. So, like, halfway through, they'd all go out and, like, smoke with each other outside. And I'd sort of sit there by myself. And I just had nothing in common with them at all. And they [00:05:00] were, like, for them, being gay was like their whole identity, and they sort of seemed kind of attention seeking in it. Um, and I just didn't I didn't feel a part of that at all, so I guess it was really good for them because they had each other, but yeah, I. I didn't feel a part of it, so that's like my problem, not theirs. Um, So did you feel quite isolated when you were younger and you were sexual orientation? Definitely. Yeah, like, yeah, [00:05:30] Absolutely. Did you know any many other, um, gay or queer people at your school? Um, yeah. So, like, there was the one other guy that I mentioned before. Um, so we were like friends, and we only started being, like, really good friends in year 11 or 12 because I think most of his other friends dropped out of high school. Um um, but yeah, just one out of a school of, like, 1000 people. What do you think was stopping [00:06:00] people from being open about their sexuality? Because obviously, we end up being more than I think. Even like when I was at high school. So not even 10 years ago. 567 years ago when I was, like, in year 11 or whatever. Um, it just wasn't as acceptable in a high school setting. Like, if you were, like, grown up, then that's OK, because everyone else doesn't care because they're grown [00:06:30] up and mature about it. But, um, like, I was bullied every day all day. Um, so yeah, why? Why would you subject yourself to that when you could Not if you could, like, hide or whatever. Were your family kind of aware that you didn't have to tell them? Yeah, definitely. I. I knew that both my parents were like, they're both really liberal, and I knew they wouldn't care at all. Yeah, which is, like, really lucky when you compare it to like people being thrown [00:07:00] out of their home and abandoned by their family for something so trivial. Um, so what's it been like? Um, coming to university and being queer at university compared to being at high school on a different day? No, I don't think I've ever been bullied at university. I don't think anyone is bullied at university, and no one should be like. No one should be bullied at high school. But definitely no one should be bullied at university. Everyone's an adult. Um, [00:07:30] yeah, it's been fine. It's been good. I really like university. Been a student for a long time. Um and what support or kind of social opportunities? Or are there at the University of China? Um, I think there's a lot. Um, there's a thing that happens every Wednesday called Q four for two hours, which is like a coffee and cookies chatting session. Yeah. Um, and I did used to go to that a few times [00:08:00] in, like, first. Or maybe, I think just in first year. But, um, like I've been at uni so long, probably not a single person who was there then is still there now, and I don't know, I just felt kind of awkward like talking to any of those people like it wasn't like my high school group where I had nothing in common with them. But I'm, like, really shy and awkward with people I don't know normally, especially if it's like me versus a group. Um and yeah, I never [00:08:30] really knew how to talk to anyone. I never No one ever really came and talked to me. So I stopped going, and now I feel way too awkward to go, and I don't think I really need to go. I think like a lot of people do go, and it's like, good for them, but yeah, I don't think I need it right now. Um, is it important to to have kind of like a sense of that community or belonging to a group in relation to being gay? Or, um, I think for me, not [00:09:00] so much, but I think it really helps a lot of people like even the ones at the high school group that I was at, like I'm sure they really, really like valued it, even though I didn't so it's good that they had it for them, but I don't know, I sort of feel like I don't really fit in with the gay community, Believe it or not. Um, yeah. So no, but for all the people who do use it, which is, like dozens [00:09:30] scores, whatever, it is really important to them. I'm sure. Um I'm interested in what you said about not fitting in with the gay community. It's weird. I don't really understand why. Um, I've only ever, uh, in addition to that, the Q four, coffee thing. There's, like, gay party event things. Um and I think one of them, I think they're 32 or three, and one of them is run by the university [00:10:00] or the university group. I'm not really sure, because I've only ever been to one of them twice with, like, three years apart. And that was like, a year ago. Um, yeah, it doesn't seem like something the university would really be like encouraging, but yeah, they're there. And lots of people go. Let's say, like, most of the queer people in Dunedin would would go to would go to some of them semi regularly or the youth of Dunedin anyway. Yeah, [00:10:30] and some of them not so youthful, but yeah. Anyway, sorry. Your latest question. Yeah. So what? What is it? Do you think about about you or about the community that makes you not feel like you fit? I don't know. It's not like I'm embarrassed or anything. It's not like you're gay. I don't want to be associated with you. Um, I think it's just the me versus the group thing and not feeling comfortable. And I'd sort of need someone to approach me and start talking to me. And I'm, like, not very friendly. [00:11:00] I don't This is so embarrassing, but I like probably because I grew up feeling so like, isolated. I don't know. This is a bit like pseudo pop psychology. Um, I've like, yeah, I'm not friendly. Even if I'm feel like I'm nice or doing something nice, it's not in a friendly way. And I'm, like, trying really hard to change. But probably if someone did come up and talk to me, I'd probably be like one word. [00:11:30] Blunt answers, thinking that I was being friendly, but actually really not being, um so yeah, I think it's probably that but then I feel like he's been away from the gay community or like not a part of it for so long that it would be really awkward to go back. I'm I'm really awkward in general. Um, do you have kind of outside of, like, the groups or events or do you have other just gay friends? Yeah, [00:12:00] Um, I've got a few. I don't have as many as I used to, and I never really see them that they're mainly just like my friends on Facebook, who I used to hang out with sometimes. And now I just like, like their statuses when cool things happen to them. Um, I'm trying to think how many I have, like not very many at all. One of my my best friend who's a girl, was surprised lesbian recently. So that sort of, like added one unintentionally. Um, but I'm [00:12:30] trying to think 23 like hardly any. Oh, no, maybe about like five. But one of them is like in Florida. One is in Wellington like, Yeah, so, I. I don't hang out with them either. So if you could, like, envision things like differently for you like, would it Would it be that that would be something that was more like if it didn't involve you having to put yourself out there. Kind of. [00:13:00] It was a lot easier. Not so awkward. Yeah, probably. I'd probably still feel awkward. Um, but yeah, I don't know, like there's no reason that I wouldn't want to be friends with them. I don't There's no reason that I remove myself or anything like that. Just a, um, does or has social media play a part at all and kind of connecting with other people. So there's [00:13:30] a Facebook group. It's like a secret group, so, like no one can see that you're in it or anything like that. So there's no downside to being in it. Um, we basically everyone queer at university as a member of that group. So, um, it's just like there's a lot of people. So I guess it's nice that it's not just like two people, because then you'd feel really alone. Um, so, yeah, that's really good. Um, because all you normally have to do is like meet [00:14:00] one gay person at uni, and then they'll, like, add you to that group, and then you meet all of them, and then you go to like, the queer coffee thing and then you go to the gay parties, and then you're like a full part of the community. Um, so, yeah, definitely. I think it's really easy to become involved with all of that. I don't know why, but didn't How do you feel about the representation of, um, current Trans people in the media? Oh, well, it's definitely changed a lot since [00:14:30] I was at high school. Like when I was at high school. I finished in 2008. So that was a while ago. Six years ago. Um, so maybe 10 years ago, when I roughly started and was going through intermedia and stuff, it's basically like I felt like there was nothing. Um, and I definitely felt like if any sort of actor or singer that came out then their career would be over just like that. And now that's so like, that's [00:15:00] so different. Um, people are coming out left, right, and centre. Um, yeah. And so, in terms of like, positive role models and the wider media, not so much like the news. Definitely. I don't really like follow the news, but, um, I know that stuff dot co dot NZ like it seems to have lots of, like, queer themed stuff like it's not like a queer thing. It's like a mainstream thing. But I mainly know that from the commenters [00:15:30] who are like, there's so much gay stuff on here. It's so annoying and stuff like that, and I just laugh at them. So you see lots of on there. Um, yeah, but just I think not so much people like criticising gays, just criticising stuff for having too much of, like this one minority on their thing, which is like, I'm sure if you calculate the proportion of, like, queer themed stories to non queer themed stories, it's probably like 1%. But yeah. [00:16:00] Um, do you see your identity reflected in the media like people like you and, um, looking at media is Yeah, like the news books, TV, movies, music? Yes, I guess in like, fictional things. Not really. Like I'm trying to think of movies that have gay people. I don't really watch like gay themed movies as much, but like mean girls. You've got Damien, who's like, really [00:16:30] fat and ugly, um in cos I can't also cos um but yeah, I guess not really. I'm sure it's like improving all the time. There's this new movie called My gay BFF or something. Do you know about that? Yeah, I saw the trailer for that, and that looks interesting, but, um, I don't know. I feel like the media has this sort of pressure to, um, be really PC around, like portraying, portraying gay people and so that they [00:17:00] have to. They can't, like, use gay stereotypes unless it's like a comedy thing. So if there's like a gay character, they're probably like a straight character, because if they made them like camp at all or anything like that, then they'd be criticised for perpetuating, perpetuating stereotypes and stuff like that. So, um, I think you sort of see and fiction really like camp Gaze. Especially like in older stuff. Or like really, um, [00:17:30] straight acting gays. Not really anything in between, but it's probably changing like, yeah, don't consume much media. Sorry. Oh, but songs like you never have a song by a guy about a girl. And like the only song that I can think of except Rihanna's song, I can't even remember what it's called, where she's like seeing about this girl who's like into her, but she isn't like [00:18:00] Liz. So she isn't like into it. Like she's like. No, um, is the song that Mamore sampled? I think I've seen the video for it, but I can't actually remember the name of the original song. But yeah, the song that I love is is the song that was sampled called Same Love Two. Do you? Yeah. Yeah, that one. That's the only song that I can think of by a woman about, like, loving a woman. [00:18:30] But it's, like, not really mainstream, like only, like, the only reason I've ever heard of it is because of Macklemore. Yeah, but like, I think that that song is really cool. Like Red made a huge difference, I think to me and to everyone, I think, Um, do you mean Mare's one or one? Yeah. Do you want to talk a bit more about that kind of put the messages in that song out and have that. Yeah. So, like the video? What a tear joker. Um, [00:19:00] but yeah, I think the video is good because, like, both the characters are sort of in between. Like when I was saying like, they're not really camp, but they're not really straight like you don't hear them talking and or in the like, Mardi Gras or whatever. Um, they're just like ordinary. I sort of people wee bit effeminate so that you can sort of understand that they're game just by looking at them, and they're just like, living out their lives. They do, like, get some hate in the video, like from the parents. But then, like [00:19:30] the mom obviously gets over it because she walks her son down the aisle. Um, and just like when they're walking down the street like they get, like, shoved by someone walking past, which I think was good because good to show that because if they were just like everything was fine, then it wouldn't be believable, especially for someone like their age, like in their late twenties in America. Um, but yeah, it's just it's like, gives you hope just by like watching the video. And that song was really, like, successful. And [00:20:00] at the same time, I don't sort of around the world. There was, like, the Gay Marriage Equality Movement and, like it succeeded in New Zealand. It succeeded in a lot of places, so yeah, it was just like really good video, Really good song became popular and it was like at a really opportune time. And I think it's the first time I've ever yeah heard a song about, like, a gay theme song that was popular. Yeah, um, some people, [00:20:30] I think, like, criticised that song because it's, um because it's written by a straight man. And he's kind of getting all this popularity for writing a song about the gay community. And it seems to like this quite this, um, two sided thing where some people are like, Oh, it's so amazing And it's got all this popularity and it's Yeah, it's giving people hope and it's it's gonna be great. And some people are like, um what about the queer artists, like getting recognition for their songs and this kind of street man telling a story kind of thing. What do you think of that? OK, [00:21:00] I think that you can think read too much into anything, criticise anything. No one's perfect. Nothing's perfect. Um, you know, you could criticise the Green Party for not being environmental enough, but I think you've got to take it or you can get it and I'm sure, like one example of that song. Furthering a gay artist's career is like my one view on YouTube of Mary Lambert's original song. Um, I think that we can take all the help. We [00:21:30] we need all the help we can get, and I think to criticise someone for being straight is homophobic. Well, sexually. What's the word sexual orientation phobic or or whatever? It's I don't know. I think that criticism, like that doesn't get anyone anywhere. It's just sort of like to me, it's like a really academic sort of waste of time thing. Like maybe we can discuss all this later [00:22:00] when queer people have full of equality and stuff like that. Um, but I just don't don't think it's helpful. Like some gay artists make a really popular song. Then, like it's up to you to make a song that everyone wants to listen to. Yeah. Um, And how do you feel about marriage? Equality? Passing? Oh, it's awesome. Yeah, I want to get married. I'm not happy that it's going to be a marriage. You know, it looks like a marriage, but isn't, [00:22:30] um were you involved at all like, did you write a submission. Celebrate the readings. Anything like that. Probably wrote a submission by, like, you know, pressing. Send at a preprepared one. signed petitions. Definitely. Stuff like that. Not really pretty passive. Um, but yeah, it seemed like it was going to be now or in 20 years, and yeah, it's really cool [00:23:00] that I have it now. Um, So you want to get married? What else do you see in your future? What do you want to do after you finish? I mean, well, I study law, and I want to be a lawyer. Um, yeah, that's all, um probably want to travel. Probably, like, really boring. Like I don't want to conquer the world or climb Mount Everest or become prime minister or anything like that. Just want to have, like, a really boring middle class life, buy a house, get some babies somehow. [00:23:30] I don't know how. Um yeah, what do you think are some of the most important issues that are facing current trans use in New Zealand at the moment, I think trends is the really big thing. Like even I'm, like, really embarrassed to admit it. But even I sort of feel uncomfortable when I see a transgender person because, like people, I don't really understand why I have this fear of [00:24:00] difference, which is obviously why queer people are facing, like, prejudice and stuff like that for so long. Um, because we're different. But yeah, so like me, like a really gay person. Feeling uncomfortable That's so bad. Like, I feel ashamed of that every time. Like I feel that way and people just need to get over it and like the whole word weird. [00:24:30] What does that even mean? Like you just say all the time? That's weird. It's like So it's different to you, like, what does that matter? But people just say, like, that's weird and goodbye Discount it forever. Um, so, yeah, I think people will need to somehow get over it. And transgender people need to be accepted because, like when gay people started coming out, you found out that there are so many of them and like, there are probably lots of transgender people [00:25:00] like who just hide because it's so much easier like that. Yeah. Um, do you see any solutions to to that? To getting it accepted? Don't know. It's always easier to start with the Children like Hitler did with the Hitler youth. Um, because the like, when you're a child, nothing matters. Like, you know, um, like everything that we [00:25:30] find weird and like, stuff like that they don't because we're trained to be the way that we are. So if you like, I don't know, teach them that it's normal, then they'll believe it. And they'll grow up like that, Just like our generation has grown up believing that being like gay or queer is normal because we're not abnormal, you know, whereas our parents were taught or our grandparents or whatever, we were taught the opposite. So that's how they grow up feeling. See, It's just, I think, [00:26:00] a generational thing. I don't really know what else could happen except more more transgender people. But find me some transgender people. We need to list the numbers. I don't know. I don't know. Sorry. Um, and what's a message that you would give to, um, young people who might be struggling through some of the things that you went through? I think it's better to [00:26:30] like cliche, but yeah, I it was so miserable during like high school. Um, especially like junior high. I and I'm so happy now, Like everything changed. It's like, Yeah, I was awesome. Um, can you kind of pinpoint any, like, moment or things that made that change in? Yeah. So it was [00:27:00] mainly one. Mainly, a lot of it was just, like stopping being bullied at high school. Um, because they grew up, the bullies grew up and, like, didn't care anymore. Wasn't fun anymore. Um, probably mainly that. But at the same time, I had, like, really hard, thick skin then. So, like, people would be calling me, like, faggot and cock sucker, I don't know stuff like that just walking down the hallway at school and I like, didn't care. It was yeah, just bounced off. [00:27:30] But then when something like that happened in year 12, like once a month or once every six months or something like, it really hurt me because, like, the walls had come down because I didn't need them anymore. Um, so, yeah, at the same time, it was getting better. But when it happened, it affected me a lot more. But year 13, I had a really fun year. Like I had a boyfriend in year 13 so that made me really happy for a while and then [00:28:00] really sad when we broke up really quickly. Um, it was a really big deal for me at the time. Um And then the year after I finished high school was up until the end, the happiest year of my life. I just felt so happy. I had a gap here and I felt so happy to have, like, no responsibility of NC A like, not that it's that challenging. Um, yeah, I was still, like, living at home, so I had no rent. I had no bills like I had nothing tied me down. I felt [00:28:30] so free and really happy. Yeah, I just felt like, instantly happy. For some reason, I don't really know why. Um, yeah, My happiness is more than the sum of its parts. I just felt really happy. Um, and maybe to finish up, um, what's your favourite thing about being a young person? And, um Well, when I was younger, I really enjoyed scamming on guys [00:29:00] with my girlfriends. That was really fun. Um, but I guess for me today, I just know that I've got it better than any other gay person in history. And that's true of, like, Western civilization. Um, yeah, so that that's like, really satisfying. But then, at the same time, I feel really sad because you look at Russia and they've got, like, the complete opposites, so underrated. It's the new Holocaust. [00:29:30] Um, and no one cares. No one's doing anything about it. Um, but yeah, In general, I feel really satisfied. I. I feel like I've got every opportunity that any gay person's ever had to do what I want to be happy, live normal lives.

IRN: 787
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ATL REF: OHDL-004300
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089594
TITLE: HIV/AIDS panel discussion
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Carl Greenwood; Jane Bruning; Marama Pala; Nigel Raymond; Ron Irvine; Vaughan Meneses
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Body Positive; Candlelight Memorials; Carl Greenwood; Eve van Grafhorst; Glenn Mills; Grindr; HIV / AIDS; Human Rights Act (1993); INA (Māori, Indigenous and South Pacific) HIV and AIDS Foundation; Jane Bruning; Jay Bennie; Katherine O'Regan; Marama Pala; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand Film Archive; Ngā Taonga Sound and Vision; Nigel Raymond; Out at Work Network; Peter Mwai; Positive Speakers Bureau; Positive Women Inc; Progressive HIV; Ron Irvine; STI; Terrence Higgins Trust; Vaughan Meneses; Wellington; Whangarei; Work and Income (WINZ); community; counselling; depression; disclosure; discrimination; employment; finances; gay; gaynz. com; health; health system; human rights; indigenous peoples; internet; isolation; language; law; marae; media; mental health; msm; needle exchange programme; peer support; pride; self stigma; social media; stigma; straight; support; takatāpui; transgender; whānau; women
DATE: 30 April 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: New Zealand Film Archive, 84 Taranaki Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from a panel discussion on HIV/AIDS, held at the New Zealand Film Archive in Wellington on 30 April 2014. On the panel: Ron Irvine (Body Positive Wellington), Vaughan Meneses (New Zealand AIDS Foundation), Jane Bruning (Positive Women Inc.), Marama Pala (INA [Maori, Indigenous and South Pacific] HIV and AIDS Foundation), Dr Nigel Raymond (Infectious Disease Specialist) and Carl Greenwood (chair). A number of comments in this recording relate to film clips that were shown on the evening but are not included in this recording.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: It's, uh, now, my pleasure to, uh, introduce, uh, Carl Greenwood. Um, Carl is the chair for this evening. Um, Carl is, uh, worked for many years in HIV aids in in that area and currently the general manager at the Drugs and Health Development Project. And prior to that was at the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. So, uh, Carl is going to introduce our wonderful panel. Thanks. Uh, thanks for organising tonight. And yes, I'm Carl Greenwood, and, um, drugs, health [00:00:30] and Development Project. I run the five needle exchanges in the lower half of the North Island. So still in the, um, prevention area for HIV. Um, but more around hep C for, um, the community I work for now, uh, New Zealand's Done A is a really good example of, actually, if you tackle a problem at the beginning, um, you you can actually have make some good inroads. So in 1987 they changed the law to allow needle [00:01:00] syringe regulations, and the first needle exchange opened in 1988 in Palmerston North. And, um, and luckily, we've been able to get the message out, and people generally in New Zealand don't share needles and we've managed to keep HIV out of the community, even though hep C is huge. Um, and also, I've lived with HIV for 25 years, so I sort of have a a pretty wide knowledge of [00:01:30] just personally of the virus and how it has affected our communities. Anyway, I'll let the panel introduce themselves. Um, we'll start with Ron. Hi, everyone. I'm Ron Irvine. I'm the manager of body positive. Wellington. Uh, we've been going now since July 15th last year. And, uh, previous to that, I was in Auckland at the Body Positive centre there. We're an organisation that looks after people living [00:02:00] with HIV. We advocate for them and we run a number of services for those people. Do a little bit of testing as well and counselling, uh, that sort of thing. Um, so it is a drop in centre so people can drop in and gain information, um, and gain services from us. I'm I've been, um, from the New Zealand A. Well, I'm on the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. I've been on the trust board there since November 2011. I've been involved [00:02:30] with the foundation and its work since, uh, sort of late 1986. So I've got a bit of a history and, um, experience around this issue. I'm also an HIV positive. So I bring that sort of view point to the board and its current position, which is extremely valuable. Um and yeah. So I, I guess I was a I was a late bloomer to HIV. Like most of us. We all know how to prevent it, but it doesn't mean we always take the advice. So it wasn't until the 15th of May, 2004 that [00:03:00] I contracted the virus from, um, a person who actually knew they had the virus. I didn't know that at the time, but it was my choice to have I'd have sex with the MA at the time with my partner after a night out, drinking and a few drugs involved. So it just goes to show that even you can know everything, but doesn't necessarily mean you behave particularly well all the time. So, yeah, that's my experience. And I'm hoping to sort of contribute positively to tonight's conversation. Hi, my name is Jane Bruening. I'm [00:03:30] the national coordinator for an organisation called Positive Women we provide support for women and families in New Zealand living with HIV or AIDS and, um, yeah, I mean, that covers lots of things. We do advocacy. And we also do educational programmes. Um, yeah, and and basically support, But I've also been living with HIV for 26 years now. Um, so again, um, I've got quite an experienced panel here on HIV. [00:04:00] Ok, Um um, just see my auntie walk in the room and, um yes, my name is and, um, I just realised [00:04:30] Oh, you guys are in. This is where I come from. I'm so I'm supposed to be welcoming you guys, so But, um currently I work and live in in the Waikato. Um, but definitely my from here. Um, my is is in an organisation called, which is for Maori indigenous and South Pacific, and it's a foundation, but it seems I have a lot of hats [00:05:00] there, and one of them is, um, the co-chair of the International Indigenous Working Group on HIV and a I, which is international, has 11 countries. Um, and I'm also a board of director member of um I CSO, which is the International Council of AIDS organisations based in Toronto. So there's my three hits. But I also, um our organisation does the same thing as, um, body positive and positive women with a bit of a Maori twist. And we do a lot of [00:05:30] thanks very much. Uh, hi. Um, I'm Nigel Raymond. Uh, I'm, uh, an infectious disease physician at Wellington Hospital. Um, and so, as well as HIV work and other general infectious disease areas and also in general medicine. Um, so, yes, I've I mean, I started off when I was doing my registrar training in Christchurch in the 19 eighties. [00:06:00] At first, uh, folks, uh, started to, um to, uh, return often to from New Zealand, from the States to New Zealand and, uh, and then worked in Waikato. We remember in Ackland and Auckland and, uh, uh, worked in Atlanta in the States. Um, when in the, um, late, uh, beginning of the 19 nineties. Four years when there was a lot of sort of aid era, Uh, and [00:06:30] then I've been back in Wellington, um, since, uh, 1996. So I just started years. Um, and, uh, yeah, so So we have, um uh, relatively small, you know, department and Wellington Hospital with two other part time I physicians as well as myself and James at the back there who is probably the crux of our service with, um and and and others who are involved in and help [00:07:00] as well. Um, And, uh, So you said there are about 300 people that will follow through the service? Um, yeah. So, um, um, pleasure to be here. Thank you. I'm looking forward to to learning from other people as well. Thank you. Panel. That was, um great. So tonight we've decided to, um, split this into four sections. We're gonna do a segment on Stigma Media, um, support [00:07:30] and education and wellness stigma. Right. It's probably one of the, um, most difficult things we have to deal with as positive people. It's absolutely right. Um, and I'm going to pass it over to the panel to comment on instagram. Imagine you've all got stories or, um, examples. I certainly have [00:08:00] you got you got the stigma. Yeah. Um, well, just like the gentleman there in the hospital, My ex partner, um, had, uh, had a similar situation in Auckland Hospital, and that was probably 15 years ago. um and, you know, it was it was a really tough time, because, um, you know, [00:08:30] people would come in and say, Why you Why do we have to put gowns on And, you know, and And I remember there was a little red dot And if there was a red dot on your name, um, your name tag? Um, that meant that you are HIV positive. Um, and again, that was putting, um, us into something that, you know, if if people knew about that, I would, um um, it would [00:09:00] identify, identify us. And we've certainly come a long way since those, uh, those times for sure. But I think we've really got a a, um uh, A long way to go. I got a couple. I've always got a yarn to. No, actually, these are back in the nineties. Um, I had a car accident between Martin and balls. [00:09:30] You guys know where Martin and balls is? Yeah. I had a car accident on the side of the road there, and I was actually pinned into the car and they had to cut me out of the car, and I actually didn't have any injuries on me. at all. I had a bit of glass in my ear and a couple of scratches and glass in my hair. And they they rushed me off to, um I shouldn't say the hospital, but hospital. And, um, there was someone else in the car with me and and they basically got X-rayed were out waiting for me, um, six hours later and I couldn't [00:10:00] understand why it took so long for them to process me and put me through the x-ray, you know, x-ray me so I could at least get up off the table. And, um, I actually was perfectly fine and my head had gone through the the side window of the car. But anyway, um, I found out afterwards that it's they didn't want me to be on their brand new X-RAY machine in case I bled on it. So they were waiting for one in storage to be pulled out and put in a back room so they could take me down [00:10:30] to the old one because it didn't matter if I bleed on that one. And I remember thinking afterwards thinking, Well, I'm sure they can wash it and thinking, and it just it's always stayed with me. That sort of stigma and things have changed a lot since then. I've got a doctor next week. Things have changed a hell of a lot since then, but I must say it's even in the system in some of the hospitals today. You still it depends who you get. I mean, of course, our, um, HIV specialists and and, um, people that are working with it day to day [00:11:00] know what's going on. It's the ones that don't know what's going on where you get the stigma and discrimination. And I suppose the only other sort of story that popped in my mind that happened, um, again in the nineties? Well, actually, no. It was 2001. Um, I was teaching at a at a, uh, a high school, and it was just a two days a week type thing going in and and teaching a bunch of kids some songs and and and things like that. And, um, they knew that I had, uh, one [00:11:30] of the parents knew I had HIV. And next thing you know, there was this huge sort of, uh, activism to getting rid of me, getting me off the school grounds and and stopping me from teaching these Children as if I was somehow going to pass the virus on to them by teaching it. It was kind of a really sort of situation that stood out to me in in the early two thousands. So it's still out there? Yeah, definitely. It was only two years ago. I went in to get a blood test and [00:12:00] the nurse came in and looked at my form. And actually I could see her freaking out and she put the form down and left the room, and she came back about five minutes later and, um, put on gloves and and and sort of really sort of made a point. And actually, she did such a bad job that actually, when I got up out of the chair and walked out, the blood started running down my arm because she she'd been shaking and she wasn't comfortable with with taking my blood. And that was that was, and that was only a couple of [00:12:30] years ago. And so it still happens. It's still happening. Um, this year I've had, um, one person come to me who'd been kicked off a course when, um, the course, Um, organisers found out that he was HIV positive and he came to me and, um, we we talked it through and I was like, Sue them, Sue them. You know, this is absolutely, completely disgusting. It's completely, um, they're breaking the law. It it's just there's no [00:13:00] there's no argument here that they completely, um you know, um, your human rights are being crushed, And so he did. And after the talk, he was able to sort of go back and confront them a lot, a lot stronger. And actually, they backed down very quickly because they realised that actually, they had broken the law and he could have sued them and and actually, they put him back on the course, and he's actually now finished. But, um, when I was working for NZAF as well, I after probably [00:13:30] two or three times, I got a phone call from from someone saying, I've got a positive person who wants to work in my kitchen. I give them You better give them the job. But it was just like it's basic, simple stuff, but the stigma around it, it's like you should be. If you're working in a kitchen, it doesn't matter if you're HIV or hep C you you should be aware of all there should be guidelines to follow around cuts and accidents and and to discriminate on HIV. It [00:14:00] just shocks me and makes me incredibly angry, actually. So you don't want to get me on the end of the phone if you're asking those questions because you'll get a right ear for. But, I mean, that's, um so within the health service we've talked about, um, the stigma and employment, I think there's probably, um when I talk to people, I say that actually, you shouldn't put it on your employment If you're applying for a job, it's actually has [00:14:30] no relevance to you getting that job. And actually, I think it's something you shouldn't put on an application for a job interview. It's, um, it it's not important. Um, I suppose my question now is to the panel is, do you think there's more discrimination around within smaller groups? So around, um, immigrants, um, around indigenous populations or within the gay community? Do you think there's [00:15:00] more stigma there than than what there is in from mainstream? I've got the stick, so I'll talk. But, um, I just and I don't I don't wanna talk about indigenous. I won't go there. But I guess just something that you know, talking about stigma. I mean, personally, I've never really had any bad experience around stigma. Nobody's done anything discriminatory. And and I've been, you know, not really had any bad experiences. But in saying that, I kept [00:15:30] it a secret for 17 years. And I think that is really what happens around stigma is that people, um, hide behind some sort of mask. And a lot of people living with HIV will not be public about their status. They will keep it to themselves, and they won't tell anybody. And the the biggest tragedy around that is that they are very isolated and and, you know, can lead to depression and, um, keeping to oneself. And that hasn't changed. I think in the 30 years that stigma [00:16:00] hasn't changed. And, um, one of the things I see in the work that I do is that we have a lot of African migrants and refugees that have come over and, you know, with the, um, publicity around internationally globally, you know, Africa has got the highest. You know, 76% of people living with HIV come from Africa. So when these people come to New Zealand, they feel like just because they're black, they walk around with HIV written on their head and that people just assume that they're HIV positive because, um and they don't People [00:16:30] the general public don't really say HIV. They're still saying aids. They don't really understand the difference between HIV and A I DS And so they sort of a lot of the African, um, members that that we have have been heavily discriminated against. They've been asked questions like, Have you had a HIV test which is totally unconnected to anything else just because they're black? Because they're from Africa? Um, so the stigma is still very much there. Um and I don't think it's it's changed, [00:17:00] not pass it on to anyone else who would like to Yeah, like like Jane. Personally, I've never experienced, um, stigma myself. But what I do Well, maybe I Maybe I have, I guess, within our own community, within, within the the gay men who have sex with men community, there is still a lot of stigma attached with being HIV positive. We hear of things like, Are you clean? Yes, yes, I've had a shower, you know, and I. I think that's that's one of the challenges that we face is that Jane referred to the [00:17:30] isolation. There are so many people who are HIV positive that I know who don't even know that their best friend is HIV positive because they don't have the ability to talk about it because it is so stigmatising in our community, not even at the sexual level. But at the social level, it is not OK to talk about having HIV amongst a large number of people with even within our community, where in some respects it's even been normalised. And I think part of the challenge for for us as as positive people, is to try and be a little [00:18:00] more open about it and try and encourage other positive people to talk to us about it so we can start building these networks. And I think that's something that, um as organisations we all struggle with. We can offer support, we can offer counselling we can offer, you know, someone to go along to wins or we can enter into a debate with a potential employer or a health service on their behalf. But what we don't do particularly well is facilitate a community around HIV positive people. We as organisations [00:18:30] are often seen as the place you go when you've got a problem with being HIV. But there are a significant number of people out there with HIV who feel isolated, who have depression, who their lives are. OK, their their health is all right. They're muddling along but they're incredibly isolated and they're isolated because we don't talk about it in positive terms. When we have our conversations with people, um be the on grinder online in a bar or whatever, it doesn't come up. It's part of something we don't want to talk about, you know? And [00:19:00] I think that there's a real challenge there for us and I think that's something that we as positive people. But also we as a wider um, community have to start embracing and and talking about it more openly. Sorry, can I just add something to just something that adds on to stigma is something that I don't know. If you've heard the terminology of Internalised stigma or self stigma. And often what happens then is people living with HIV take on all of those external, um, you know, attitudes and and actually believe [00:19:30] it about themselves. And I guess from my perspective, like I my partner and I finished 20 years ago and I have not been in another relationship since then. And that's purely because I don't have the confidence to get into a new relationship because I've got HIV. And even though I work in the field and I'm, I'm out about my status, and I just don't have the confidence to go into a relationship because I feel that I'll be coming into a relationship if they they're not positive at a lower level. You know, I'm I'm going to be the one that something's wrong with that person. [00:20:00] So, um and and that happens, that's my experience of it. And it's an experience that I have heard from a lot of other people as well. Is this internalised stigma where they feel dirty? They feel bad about themselves and and it attacks their own self esteem. And that's what we call an internalised stigma. Yes, um, I can I can talk from personal experience. Um, with when I was diagnosed, it was pretty public. [00:20:30] And I found that, um my entire community, my, my, we all found out at the same time I did that I had HIV. And the instant, um, sort of sort of reaction was I couldn't cook in the kitchen at the I couldn't do the dishes. I couldn't touch anything. I. I was dangerous. There was something wrong with me Don't drink, wasn't allowed to, you know, share cups or bottles of drinks. And And I think the the internal stigma stuff for [00:21:00] me was that I was so afraid of the judgement that I would get from my own people that I I was due completely. And I actually the funny thing was the people that actually helped me up when I did withdrew what were, um were the gay community were men from the gay community and the Maori community were there for me. Um, there was my uncle who was around way back and he started a organisation. It was all those guys that [00:21:30] that helped me, um, with my diagnosis, even though I wasn't gay, and in a way, I was a minority as a woman, Maori and HIV Positive. I had all these sort of marginalised things put on me. And, um, that was, you know, 1993. But since then, um, you know, I've really made it my sort of life, cause to keep educating and talking and I I do do a lot of, um, sort of talks with my community or around Maori communities around. [00:22:00] And one of the things that I found, um, kind of crosses over is the the and and the HIV thing crossing over into to what I'm doing in the sense of that, um, there's still a lot of denial around it. And there's still a lot of, um, stigma associated just with being yet it's actually part of the, but we everyone has in their everyone has a cousin or a or [00:22:30] a or, you know, a transgender member in our in our family. And and I thought about it going back for years in history. I had uncles, lots of uncles that were that, um we didn't even think about twice and I, I think it's it's for for me. And I've said it and you quote me. I've said it in other articles as well as that there is there is a form of sort of a thought process introduced stigma that I call it where, [00:23:00] um, our people have gone through these stages of of colonisation of years in religion. And I'm not just talking about Maori. I'm talking about Pacific Island migrants, all sorts of things where religion has really, um, changed the way that people think. And it has sort of distanced themselves from through who who their people are, um, from dangers of things like HIV because it's sort of like, Oh, that'll never happen to me It's it's those people over this problem. [00:23:30] And so what I'm talking about is that when I go into the communities, it's actually peeling back all those layers of stigma and discrimination getting to you know who we were as a people at the core and then coming back to, you know, Well, this is what can happen to your your, um, or your grandchild. Um, that most definitely And they're gonna go out in the world if they don't know anything about looking after themselves. This is a real risk to them, and that's that's [00:24:00] the conversations I end up having, and it's it's really funny because there's some hugely homophobic sort of attitudes and right in front of me II I had this story. I was at this house and, um, he sitting up, you know, always have a car when you're at someone's house. And, um, this beautiful came in just just a awesomely gorgeous. And her grandfather was just downing everything to do with the MS M. All of that. It was so anti it. And [00:24:30] then an obvious trans transgender walked in the room and and served us this beautiful meal. And I was looking at him and I went and he went, Oh, he's alright and I just realised it. That's that's the kind of difference it's like Yes, for the talking sort. Of course, they'll say what they think they're supposed to say, but on a real level, if it is in their final, they're completely loving and accepting, and it's just part of the of the process. But I will say within indigenous [00:25:00] culture, sometimes we're harder on ourselves, so we do stigmatise ourselves harder. And, um, I've got to acknowledge that my husband is here, um, from Papua New Guinea. And it's another culture that is very much doesn't talk about this stuff, because it first of all, it's illegal. It's it's, um, very dangerous. There's religion involved. There's a lot of those sorts of stigmas and discrimination. So they come to New Zealand, and we're so open talking about these things. But, uh, I suppose I'm rambling [00:25:30] now, but the point I'm trying to make is that yes, it does happen within our own indigenous populations, and it's really up to us to shine a light on in on it and talk about it. She put a Yeah. Thanks. Um, yeah. So I think, um, stigma has been associated with infectious disease problems. Um, for boys. And, [00:26:00] um so it is Well, you know as well as HIV, you know, it's certainly associated with other things like TV, um, hepatitis, BC, leprosy, meningococcal disease. Um, and, um, probably doesn't go away altogether. Um, the things have improved in some respects. Um, certainly it was, but I'm settling to see a journalist from Wellington Hospital. Um, [00:26:30] I. I wasn't quite sure why he would be in respiratory isolation. I wondered whether because of, um, being so, um I don't know anything about the circumstances, but I wondered whether they might have been worried about TB or something else like that at the same time, so far as the masks went, Um, but it's hard to know. It's kind of reassuring to see that they had the old Wellington hospital building that had been knocked down. So, um, hopefully things have moved on. We we have, um, some things. I think, uh, [00:27:00] we don't, uh we the way that people's notes are kept and things are really mainstream much more than they were. So we don't really have separate charts or anything like that, and more people are looked after. We are in a general clinic. Um uh, they were talking about the needlestick accidents. And we have, um, the, uh, set ups for blood and body fluid exposures which, uh, which really, um, [00:27:30] help to protect people where that there is a real problem. But but de diffuse the whole thing, uh, where it could get out of proportion. So, um, so those types of things are, um, arrangements help to deal with some of the things around the story around the policemen and the people who where there was concern around. Um um, but that around possible exposure. And I think there there is [00:28:00] probably a lot more knowledge that, um, you know, there needs to be, um, the exposure risk, for example, with cutaneous exposure in tap skin. You know, it is really, um uh less than, you know, 1. 3 and 1000 and so that people, um, I think there's increased knowledge just to how, um, low risk is even with actual blood exposures. And, um uh, [00:28:30] So, um yeah, I think one of the things that may be a factor as well is it is, um, in some respects is HIV has kind of become a chronic condition and less in the public eye, you know, then, um a lot of clinicians or public don't really see much about it. So it may be some of the things which we have changed and improved treatments really aren't known about, Um that's [00:29:00] one thing. I think that the comments about employment moving away from the health sector, I think the employment area, I think, um, we we've certainly seen people who have, um have disclosed about their HIV applying for a number of jobs and, you know, been told that they'll be called back and never have. Um, I suspect that that employers may ask people specific health diagnoses too often, [00:29:30] really? When I. I think that they probably really only need to know whether a health condition affects the person's ability to do a job. And so it's a functional thing rather than a diagnosis. I think, um, that that's been easier to manage in the health sector, where we have occupational health positions who can see people And, um, if they've got HIV or hepatitis B and there are certainly nurses and doctors who have got, um all those [00:30:00] at Wellington Hospital, Um and so they, you know, would, um, have arrangements around whether they there were particular things that they couldn't do, which the large part is really in the hospital setting would be, um uh would be involvement in major surgery, um, as a doctor. So for nurses, that probably wouldn't occur much. Um, but out in the community, really, there isn't a lot of reason, [00:30:30] as you say to it would only really be if somebody is going to be away from work because of illness. Um, and a lot of the time now people are just attending clinic the odd time a year. So we're really talking about a fairly low impact. And and I think, um, I'm not quite sure how to get around that, that that people are being asked what their actual health problem is rather than whether it impacts on their health. You don't have to answer that job that in a in a job interview, anyway, it's it's no, it's no one's business [00:31:00] from the floor. Is there any questions or comments or anything anyone wants to to bring in on stigma before we move into media? How, um, for me, stigma started before my diagnosis, so it just sort of carried on for me as far as I was concerned. But, um, a lot of areas [00:31:30] of in a lot of the eras in my life, um, it made it worse, especially in trying to find employment up to even to the state. If the employer asked me my health status and I say, why is that important? And and I said, I don't have to answer that and he says, Well, you're not getting the job, and that's been [00:32:00] the response of an employer every time I've had a job interview, they shouldn't even be asking that question. But, yeah, II, I can believe that. And as I said, II, I told them I I'm not. I don't have to tell you my status, my health status. And then they just turn around and say, Well, we won't give you the job. I see there's not a lot you can do with this. [00:32:30] Thanks. You know, sometimes in that situation, we, um, try to see where the GP will sometimes do a note to say that somebody's got a chronic health problem. Um, and that will mean that they might be. You get to give them a rough idea of that. They might be away from work. Um, you know, whatever it might be, perhaps rather than II, I think [00:33:00] that's not an easy thing to do, but, um, to be honest. But, um, I think perhaps saying that if somebody has a health problem, but without saying what it is. But perhaps in the GP might have some role in advising the extent that that might impact on he's ability to do a job. But that's I think that's a difficult one. Hi. Um, [00:33:30] I was, um I totally agree with what was saying about the stigma. And, um, I've got friends who are positive who won't go near a support organisation for fear of being exposed. I recently heard of, um, someone in Auckland who, um, sarah converted, became they became aware of their status, uh, positive and, you know, for no time at all, it was right around the community and not in a particularly, [00:34:00] um, positive way that been, there's so many in windows. But, you know, it went right around and it's just it's shit, and we don't We don't talk about it. Um, we don't talk about people. Sara converting in a in a political basis. Anyway, it's it's really fucked up that part. So I'm trying to think I'm sitting here trying to think of what's a solution, and I don't have one. But one of the things that we did in the past, [00:34:30] um, when I was at the clinic, um, years ago, um, was we did the education programme, we would go out and talk to schools, and I remember going to, um, there was a terrifyingly large woman moving from, um abused like shit at school. It was kind of nice to Barbara. I always felt safe. But, you know, sending me a gay man back to school, um, to talk about AIDS was, you know, terrifying. But I did feel that it worked. But the other part the other component, which is really where you [00:35:00] guys are heroes is that, um is a positive speakers bureau. And, you know, um, it's not really fashionable to get a, um, an HIV after dinner speaker, but it should be fashionable to have an after dinner speaker. You guys are heroes. And you know, there's so many people who won't do what you're doing, so don't minimise. I mean, not saying don't, you know, celebrate what you're to achieve, but in some way the Positive Speakers Bureau that the I don't know who used [00:35:30] to run it. Um, the free aid support network was really, really good. So it might be one way. But I think it's really about education. When I look at all of the examples and also gave me and my experience to say it gave me, um who are actually positive. And they can't, um, get relationships because people won't have relationships with them and things because they are positive. It's horrible. Whereas really, the reality is that if you treat everyone like that positive, [00:36:00] then the chance to say you might not see yourself, you know, education. Thanks, Hamish. Yeah, I've had that experience of not disclosing early in a relationship. And when I did disclose they were gone the next life, right, we're going to move on to the next half after that, you know, a really good topic. And I thought I just wanted to share my experience. Um, So [00:36:30] when I was, uh, diagnosed, I, um I went to a couple of good friends of mine and the community and, um told them the diagnosis and, uh, the reason why my partner at the time and I hadn't been that well, and, uh, we were told, uh, don't tell anyone. Don't tell anyone at all. Keep it to yourselves. And, um, I was a little bit confused, probably for a couple of weeks. Um, as to why, that would be the case. And I understood. Obviously there would be some [00:37:00] effects from from people knowing and potentially treating me differently. Um, but I sort of took it the other way. And I within a couple of weeks, um, advised my employer of diagnosis, and he was concerned, Um, so I took it as a as an educational opportunity to tell him what the effects were going to be on his business. And, uh, and in [00:37:30] the end, ended up talking to the board of directors as to the effects on the business, which and there was no, Um, but I guess the one thing that I did is sort of took it upon myself to educate people that didn't know. And, uh, I was lucky that I had people like Carl that helped me through that process so that I had the information that I could pass on to those that didn't have the information. And I guess that's just my sort [00:38:00] of two cents and and and advice to other people was, you know, don't don't bottle it up. Um, actually, let's start educating the community about the effects that it has on the community, and that is to be honest, thanks, and it But it does take a strong character to be so up front. And, um, I would say you're in the minority, not in the majority. [00:38:30] Most people actually and and and actually give themselves a hard time. And internalised stigma is is very much something that we have to deal with. And I think it really when you get a positive diagnosis, it can quite often and really affect your self esteem and your own sense of, of of, well being Carl, Carl. Yes, I can say, um, I think that from I think most, [00:39:00] most most, uh, a lot of people who, um, have done that I've talked to have, um, had a similar positive experience that, um, most people and family, you know, when they find out are supportive. Um, uh, but it it, um I mean, one option is to, um to leave that possibility open for a little while after you've got your head round it to start with. You know, um, so, um uh, not [00:39:30] telling everybody back at the very beginning is is, um yeah, there's one option. And then, uh, that, um, being more open and and, uh, education, educating and, uh, and finding that people most people are decent. Um, you know that it can be at the next step. Uh, sorry, um So I actually work as a patient advocate in the [00:40:00] states, um, at HIV clinic. And one of the things I'm curious about is I think stigma usually relates to the way that we talk about HIV, and particularly to people who may not have somebody who is HIV positive in their immediate circle. Um, so one of the things that I found is that, at least in the states, um, HIV is one of a few sexually transmitted diseases that pathologize by million in speech. Um, and there's not really a good way or at least widely known way of positive way that's accessible [00:40:30] to people who don't really understand it. So I'm curious from the panel members, whether you have any suggestions or ways that you can talk about HIV and more accessible. Or I suppose, coming from an employer point of view, Um, I think when we start to get into the last topic a little bit, actually, it's around the legalities of things. And at this current time in New Zealand, there's no legal requirement to disclose. [00:41:00] Um, when it comes to you offering to to educate and and, um, disclose yourself. Um, of course, you know, you've got to weigh up the pros and cons of that. You've got to look at both sides of that. And most people, um, especially, um, Jane can attest to this as well. That we've known for say organisations like positive women is that it's actually been quite positive. Um, there hasn't been any really bad sort of thing. And I think we started tonight's [00:41:30] session and we're sort of going back. You know, it's about 30 years of HIV, I suppose. And I think when we're getting up to like where we are now, we're actually becoming a lot easier to talk about, mainly because the descendant is off off the plate. So it's not hanging over our heads as the the possibility anymore. Um, the other side, though, like talking about pros and cons, is that, um, it's still really hard for for women to disclose because of the partner issue and [00:42:00] because people the men do run for the hills. And I think, um, you know, that's where if we if we go on to the criminalization of of HIV, which is on the agenda, I mean we're over, but we start looking at those sorts of issues. For women, it's a It's a huge thing because there are a lot of women that don't disclose and, um, with their sexual partners because they don't feel they need to at this stage, Um, where was I going with that? [00:42:30] To expect everybody to become, come out and speak openly about their status is really asking a lot because there still was a lot of negative Sort of What do you call it? Flat back flat back of that and and I'm still getting it after having no time. Um, private, you know, I've been I've been 21 years and I'm still getting it. I still get, uh, the parents of other people's Children sort of not wanting their kids to play with my kids. You know, I still [00:43:00] get very subtle things, and I suppose what it's taught me is that I can't control how everybody thinks I can't change the world all by myself, even though I try and I think, uh, for me, I, I can only change my way of dealing with it. And if I see it and I go, Oh, yeah, it's one of them. They are one of them. I put them in that category. Oh, they are one of those sorts of people. And then I move on with life and I get on with it. And I think [00:43:30] the thing that I want to teach my Children is to be the same way you know, it does. It's none of my business what anyone else thinks of me. Um, it's also, though I do say to people, You don't have to disclose when you're applying for a job. And so you know, there there are times when you just got to use your noggin and think about, um when is it a good time to disclose? And when is it is it not? And trust your your instinct as well. So should we go to media? Just Just [00:44:00] one thing I wanted to say about that was I think one of the challenges that we have, um particularly as the gay community is that it wasn't so long ago that gay equaled AIDS in the Western world. So we have got the stigma. You know, there's a lot of denial about HIV and conversations about HIV because to acknowledge HIV, um means, you know, I can be gay without HIV, and so I'm different. I'm somehow better. I am not a I DS and I think there's a real big fundamental difference, Um, particularly in the [00:44:30] gay community and and why There's a lot of denial and why a lot of people not want to talk about openly because to actually openly acknowledge that actually, it is a really big deal for us at the moment. You know, in in New Zealand, we're about one in 20 in Australia out. They mean it's about, you know, it's about 28%. I think in some cities, you know, I think part of the challenge. I mean, it's not that much better in some parts of the States. I think it's about 32 up in, um, San Francisco. So when when [00:45:00] you want to define and build, build a community and build your strength around it and and have equality and have equal rights and be seen as human sometimes in the community we want to be seen as not being AIDS. We want to be seen as being equal, and somehow part of the challenge with us as HIV positive people is to be seen as not less equal, you know? And so I think, you know, that is, you ask a perfectly pertinent question. I think that is our challenge. That is our challenge [00:45:30] to try and have these discussions so that we can engage positive people within our own community. Positively. But we just don't. Thanks for mix. Um, it just suddenly remembered I was so that I'm a member of out at work, which is a, um, a trade union based group CTU Centre Centre of Trade Unions. Um, um and and immediately I thought, [00:46:00] Well, um, it's like, Well, I'm gay. I'm I'm not only that, I'm a member of a trade union, which isn't the most fashionable thing. Um, amongst people. Um So And also, um, being gay in the trade union movement is the most isn't the most fashionable thing either. Um, but there is, um, a group, uh, you can go to to to try and work [00:46:30] through the trade union movement. Um, it's a solidarity based, um, and sympathetic. Um, and I think the reason to be very concerned with, um, matters of gender and and move to try and get people who are who are straightforwardly male or female, um, to get rights for people in that situation. Um, and I felt over the compared [00:47:00] to, um, tackling things 30 years ago. And I think in the trade union movement, it's probably gone off the, um it shouldn't have, but, um, for various reasons, and it's been displaced, plus the fact that, um, people are leaving you rather enjoying the times as well. So, um, so I've rambled on a bit and things like that, but there's a there is a sort of niche. [00:47:30] There is a place to go, but it is something to think about. Yeah, Um, definitely for me. Yeah. And you're right. It has gone off the boil. It's, um, not discussed much anywhere these days. Do you want to move on to the next clip? We have, sort of. We're sort of we're going to play another clip, but we've already sort of started talking about some of this stuff anyway, so we'll play a clip and then we'll just carry on with talking about media and the media sort of portrayal of HIV, [00:48:00] which could be quite interesting, especially with some of the language that's been used recently around HIV in the media. I think one of the things that shocked me was when we heard about a child in, um, being asked to leave school. And I just I just was absolutely gobsmacked that here we were sort of 25 years on from Eva. [00:48:30] Um, and we were having a very similar story happening all over again, and I sort of wondered how far we'd actually moved in 2025 years. Um, I thought it was quite horrific. Um, and I think there was for a lot of positive people, the language that was used around the Glenn Mills case was really disturbing, Um, and and quite [00:49:00] negative towards, um, for the positive people. I think I had a lot of people coming in and see me at work and being quite sort of disturbed by the whole media coverage of the Glenn case. Um, the floor. Any questions? Thoughts, ideas, um, questions for the panel? Or do I just go straight into the panel right straight over to the pan [00:49:30] thoughts around media, I think, um, just yeah, we've got a couple of recent cases, but I think, um, media have played a huge part in um, sensationalising HIV for the last 30 years and not only in our country, but all around the world. And it has, um, attributed to the stigma and discrimination to the fear, the panicking, the, um, the fear of getting tested in case [00:50:00] that you've got that what they're talking about on TV. Um, even in the early days, you know, there was Philadelphia recently. We've just had the Dallas Buyers Club. Um, it's kind of brought it back up in in in people's sort of radar again. And, um Then there was the, um, Peter case in 93 which I was involved with. And I think, um, as for me, I can say that if it wasn't for the media, I wouldn't [00:50:30] have found out that I was HIV positive. So I kind of in a way, thankful that the media were there. But on the other hand, it wasn't nice afterwards, and it continued to be quite awful. So there there is a double edged sword and it took me at least 12 years to get a handle on how to deal with media and I. I think it's now it's about us as positive people actually taking control of it and making sure that whatever is printed [00:51:00] about us is with us first. And we approve of it. Um, the S, the sensationalism, those stories that came out about Mills and and the young boy up in I mean, it brings it to the people's attention again. Um, because of course, you know, it's sensationalism. It's the media wanting to sell papers. It's people wanting to switch over and watch that TV programme because this is happening. It doesn't do us any favours because it still [00:51:30] makes us look dirty. Makes us look like we've got something that you know we should be split it all over the news about, um, I find that it's how you deal with the media while you're doing it is it's really not learning and public speakers bureau training. Um, is very good in that sense is that it has a component of media in there and how to, um, work with media because media will will twist your words. I've had them do it to me. I've had [00:52:00] whole articles written about me that was completely untrue, and I've had Paul Holmes rubbishing me on on when he was alive years ago on the radio. So I kind of I you know, I've seen two sides of it. Um, I think we need to also put again use our brains and realise that not everything we read is, um, again, there was media today. You know, that was a bit sensationalist, um, for a lot of people in the HIV sector over the years. [00:52:30] And, um, I thought, Well, here they go again. You know, the they put AIDS in the same sentence as some other kind of abusive situation, which again it makes us all makes us all look bad again, even though it's got nothing to do with HIV. Um, it's filtering what's real and what isn't and that that's the hard challenge. And again, it takes more people that are living with HIV to speak up about it for that to happen. [00:53:00] I think it's really interesting when we refer to people like Eve Bo graft horse. Who people may remember was a was a toddler who was thrown out of a kidney a kind in Australia and was sort of sent back to New Zealand with a New Zealand mom and stuff like that New Zealand embraced her in a way that we've never seen anyone with that being embraced with, um in in New Zealand. And I think it's actually really impossible for us to understate or sort of to overstate the actual effect that having someone like Eve really [00:53:30] high profile in the New Zealand media back in the late eighties and early nineties was to New Zealand in terms of us actually being able to achieve some of the some of the things that we did. I don't think that Catherine O'Regan would have been able to get through the, um, anti discrimination laws in 1993 if it wasn't for the profile that we manage to achieve because one little girl, um, who was actually positive who was thrown out of Australia, which actually helped New Zealand psyche, um, you know, educate us a bit. [00:54:00] I think the saddest part of all that was that it didn't really matter how many gay men had died of HIV before then. It didn't matter in New Zealand until a three year old girl had HIV, and I think that's part of the stigma and part of the challenge with media that we've got at the moment. You know, again, as Mama just referred to, you know, there was a There was a case of a of A of a person in trust of the New Zealand AIDS Foundation who has been convicted to [00:54:30] come, you know, punished today for, um, sexually abusing some inappropriate people or people were inappropriate. He was inappropriate. Um, but, you know, again, as I said, it was HIV and again, another negative connotation. It it continues that stigma continues their staff that, uh uh which is which is wider than HIV gears against our community. And so we there is a role to play in me. And I think, um, you know, it's good that Jay is here to report on proceedings tonight and take part in the [00:55:00] discussion. But I, I don't think we can still put our hands on our hearts and trust the media. And I work for the media. I can't work for the radio network, so I I'm out there with that, um I think we've got to be really careful with media. We still feel that we need to manage media. We still feel whenever the media wants to interview anybody or talk to them about HIV. We all take this sharp and take a breath and go Oh, fuck! Now what? You know, we actually don't have that confidence in media, and I think we've got to get better at it. And we've got to educate [00:55:30] media better about HIV and normalise it a lot more because all those every little chip that the media makes against us or against our community because of the perceptions of HIV is another little stigmatising thing that forces that person who's just been diagnosed not to confide in anybody, even the best friend who may also happen to be HIV positive. So, yeah, I was going to throw a curveball in, but I think we'll just move on and I'll leave that for a bit later [00:56:00] on if we've got time. Um, yeah. Is it a very broad term? Who are we talking about? And me, How are we talking about in me too? Um, to change this approach that we're referring to and the way in which we reported, you know, Is it is it the journalist specifically, or is it uh is it the entire industry? [00:56:30] It's probably the entire industry it's wanting to. It's they they sensa. Sensationalise is a really good word, I think. But maybe Jake should answer this one. Um, but I think you it's a It's a big picture. And it's all about selling papers, isn't it? But, ja, I'm gonna come to the defence of some of our media. I think talking about the media is wrong. [00:57:00] Um, talking about, um an interview on morning report or on nine to noon is different to talking about a bit of talk back on radio live. Uh, a beat up of the Sunday news is very different to a piece of the, um the two pieces that we've seen tonight, uh, that have struck me on the screen. The first one was the piece [00:57:30] on the guys who came to the assistance of the road accident victim that got covered in his blood. I covered that from gay angle. Um, some may know here some may not most of New Zealand doesn't know, But the two guys who got covered in blood were gay, and the media knew that in this case to New Zealand, and they quietly air brush that I love the picture in order [00:58:00] to be able to clearly present outraged of Bay Michael, concerned that the Ministry of Transport had not followed through and made everybody aware of what they needed to know. Those guys knew a lot more than we get from that picture about how exposed or not that may have been. But the media and it looked like a bit of a Oh my God, it's HIV! Oh my God, they could have been Oh, my God, People could have got this virus. They [00:58:30] could be dead by now Story if it wasn't it could have been played out like that. But that video played it the way we would want. But he realised it was not, um what was the piece of the piece with the, uh, the young boy and what they wanted to do? There was another van didn't quite work out in a way, but that's what they were trying to do was the [00:59:00] only way of getting through to Middle New Zealand the reality of HIV. Now, if we look at our media in New Zealand and overseas media, there's another split that we must make when we go the media. The first representations of HIV that we got in New Zealand were from overseas media from CBS News and things like that filtered through our networks. But it was all that was available. And what did we see? We saw, like poor [00:59:30] little Children with AIDS due to the reading at the time, surrounded by company toys and bunnies and hospital looking, wide concerned parents around them and all the rest of them and in some case, ns and gone. And when we saw men with HIV gay men, we saw cabs, figures lying alone, drooling in a bed and referred to as AIDS. And and And we had this AIDS victim all that. So the media is [01:00:00] not unless it's not homogenous. And we have to be careful that we don't love New Zealand media with the overseas version. Because in fact, the New Zealand media has been a shining example of the media overseas on how not to attack gay men. We think of the data they need and ignored. We wouldn't have heard. Much of [01:00:30] it hadn't been for war homes. Paul Homes championed her. He knew what he was doing, and he was pushing a raft force right into the middle of every living room in New Zealand, and he was meeting every living room in New Zealand and the subject was IV. She was the only example that would work to get our agenda. As gay men who were those who were pro, were predominantly being affected into those living rooms because as soon as he had mentioned gave [01:01:00] them of HIV, part of New Zealand would have turned out, not turned out, not not intentionally. Just little little girls. Yeah, takes up the heart strings. So I think we have to be careful before we ascribe very black and white and self serving attitudes in the media. Because often there's a back story that you do not see because if you saw the back story, the story would be different and it would serve our purposes so well, [01:01:30] did that help answer your question? Which, which was exactly what, um John Campbell did with the, um, boy thing. He he he actually knew there was a lot more to the story behind it all. But he did did the story one night, and then I was interviewed the night after, and, um, there was a lot more to that story, but his his motivation that he he told me, was he He thinks that HIV needs to be in the media more [01:02:00] and, um, the media, it's not relevant. It doesn't exist. It doesn't get funding. It doesn't get it doesn't get support it it gets airbrushed out. So yeah. Yeah. So there's positives to that as well. I know now. I worked through this era, right from an age of age as [01:02:30] a producer, director of television, New Zealand and an archivist. I just wanted to say this I managed to do that programme I saw from South was one of the first we heard Don't actually touch the subject. And we we had a, um we had a, um I should know. Um, we had a producer in television New Zealand [01:03:00] named your Mark. Who who suffered one of the first AIDS sufferers in New Zealand. He continued working. It was tragic to see at the time because no one understood he walked around like a zombie, but he could walk into the television studio and still direct the programme. It took a lot of understanding from a lot of people I didn't on suicide in New Zealand. It was tragic. It was hard to get on. But the point [01:03:30] of the programme is not about suicide, but team suicide was about how to support it, how to get the information out there and make people aware. Now I think we're now living in an era where mass media television has now been completely diluted. When we put a programme on it went to the whole of New Zealand. The television audiences are talking, so whatever message you give is not getting across the great mess. The biggest danger we have [01:04:00] at the moment is the social media of Facebook and other medias starting off on a 10 year and I've seen it on Facebook Post. I've done where someone's made a cynical comment and the whole thing has gone off. They're in a totally different direction now. The thing you have to do with the thing is it is the media, it's self reporting. It's the me me and all that sort of thing. So is and you've got to get more and more of that and I hope it's not of a tragic consequence [01:04:30] of some people around who are getting misguided or whatever and labelling people wrongly because I think there's been a lot of positive things with AIDS now, with HIV and all that, I think you're getting quite positive messages out there because a lot of support around and people talking about it. The key thing I would say to anybody in the media now is made up your mind whether you want to tell the whole world about one or what do you want to tell people how to move forward? [01:05:00] In other words, you learned from this, and what about Sometimes you can say no, I don't want to be wrong. It's hard to do sometimes, but you're also very difficult when you get a microphone. Basically, when you face these studies that you not make a comment because the media has turned into that sort of thing. And before we have respect, we asked. We tell by we make people sure these days reports by the standard in my view, have dropped. And it does put [01:05:30] a consequence on people trying to explain the situation that can be made to look at poor. So my advice to anybody these days is think very carefully and don't comment until you're sure you know what the hell is gonna happen? Because you've got to live with it. And I used to be an activist that goes in the out cry over 60 and Peter does the thing on One of the things is we never have certain things coming out of him and the secret, not about this topic. So all I'm saying is the media. The [01:06:00] biggest danger for us these days is not for television media, not the radio and not for newspaper, because they generally have professional standards. It's the social media getting out of out of hand and somehow out of the best you can do is what we've got. Now you've got websites around. Hopefully someone is monitoring what's going on and can be some of the information out. Thanks for Just want to say I think I think you know you. You you're both right in terms of like the [01:06:30] you know, saying the media is all one. However, it's still here. We are in, you know, 2014. The time that we get to mainstream media as a community generally is either when something goes horribly wrong or is a child involved. Now that we get shaped by media, we don't shape the media, The media shapes us. And I think you know, if if we if you look at or we look at the boy at last year, [01:07:00] how many other positive stories are there in the general media about HIV positive people where there's no story where there's no outrage, where there's just actually a role modelling of of good behaviour or or a just a good life? We don't get represented, you know. And I think we've had that argument, you know, as a gay community going back for many, many, many years and we still get outraged or we get outraged when someone gets outraged. There's a lesbian kiss on Shortland Street. You know, we don't actually get the normalisation of HIV [01:07:30] in the community without that normalisation. It's very, very difficult to talk about. It contributes to the isolation, it contributes to the stigma, and so I can take your point that yes, the media were very man at the times when they were choosing these Children to use as our heroes, and, you know, I don't want to take anything away from that, but it can be an end end. It doesn't have to be an either or And I think that is. Our challenge is to actually work out. How do we get our lives, our stories, our voices [01:08:00] normalised in New Zealand so that the stigma disappears and the challenges with that disappear? I think this is one point I would make to that. Um is that normal is not used, Um, that if you put a front a picture on the front cover of Woman's Day magazine. Rachel buys Mil cat dairy. Uh, you've got to sell a certain number of copies. Rachel has breast cancer. [01:08:30] We go walk the scale normal is views. And that's just human nature, not the nature of the media. It's based on human nature. Thanks. And, um, I mean, I could say that I'm guilty of that. Um, I've I've done a lot of Women's Day magazines and other women's magazines, and most of it, the the headline will be AIDS victim or Peter Victim. Or, you know, But then it will get into a story about [01:09:00] how I've moved on with my life. I've had Children. They got HIV negative. You know, all the the positive things that have happened. But you still got the only way to get your attention is if you go straight to that. That what I call, um Oh, it's like having a, um yeah, something that will grab attention. And a lot of I mean sadly. And I've seen it so many times, not just in this country but around the world. People get HIV and they think, Well, I'm gonna get famous now I'm gonna start [01:09:30] doing, you know, documentaries and TV shows and all this stuff, but they haven't got that catch. They haven't got that thing that if they have, if they've got a just a normal old story they got HIV because they had a good night. Exactly. And it's almost and II. I hear it all the time. And it is it's how do you say to someone that you're not extraordinary when when to us you are, But it's It's in that sense in media. It's not extraordinary. And we've seen that so many times with women. Unless [01:10:00] you're a celebrity. Yeah, but I, I do think we need media and and we I mean, it's interesting to hear you say out there that you know, you can say no. I have to admit, we very rarely say no because any opportunity is I said, I, I don't actually say any opportunity is better than none, because sometimes I wish I had said no. Um, but, you know, we get calls like Come up to AIDS Day. Can you provide us [01:10:30] with this? You know, 16 year old beautiful woman who's just been diagnosed as if to order? We can just put somebody on the front page of the newspaper with their story. Um, so it it's it's a kind of a love hate relationship. I mean, I wouldn't even say Hate. It's a very nervous relationship, um, with the media, because you I really understand. Now when when you hear famous people or people on the news saying it was taken out of context, you really begin to understand that that, um that saying, [01:11:00] But we we need media, and it's important for us to learn how to use them to our advantage. Um, which is not an easy task. Um, I'm gonna pass on to Ron to talk a bit about nowadays. What happens with, um with testing and and the support, but I will just, um it does make me laugh now, But I was diagnosed in 1988 and I had [01:11:30] to go and have blood taken, and I had to go back and get my results. And the doctor walked into the, um into the waiting area and looked at me and said, I'm sure you're not surprised, but you are positive. And that was that was it. And he went back to his office and I walked out. Thank goodness it isn't still like that. Yes, I've I've heard of, um, actually, one of my good friends. A lot of you will know, uh, who died several [01:12:00] years ago was Michael Hay. And, um, he was in Rotorua when he got told over the phone from his GP that he had aids. Uh, and, uh, as a consequence of that, he started, um, Bay area, a support service. And, um, I was working for a life link youth line as a phone counsellor, and so together and with other volunteers, we fielded a few calls, and, um, and that which was, you know, really, really good, but [01:12:30] yeah, getting as far as testing goes nowadays. Um both, uh, New Zealand AIDS Foundation and and us. And, um, we do rapid testing. We actually do it from our centres and also out in the community as well. Um, we still do pre and post test counselling. We feel that that is, uh, very important. Um, we get them to, um, fill in a, um, risk assessment form, [01:13:00] and that gives the the person taking the test, um, a level of risk to that particular person. Um, And through the process of the of the testing, um, we'll talk to them about their risk and about their sexual practises, uh, and use it as an opportunity also to educate because there's a lot of people out there that, uh, don't know the risks. Um, so we So we use that as a time to educate, Um, and as [01:13:30] far as, um, you know, going going through the testing. Um, it's a pretty simple way of doing testing. Now it's a screening test. Um, it's a finger prick that we use. Um, and if we do get a positive, then the biggest thing as positive, positive people, we can, you know, talk to them and support them and certainly from from our organisation and and New Zealand AIDS Foundation that, uh, that's [01:14:00] the pro the the primary carers to that person and to make sure they're safe, uh, and kept safe and to, uh, to get the support that they need and to offer the support that they need whether it be through, um, our own organisations or seeking, um, external organisations to help. And, um And so once we do get a positive result, we will, uh, then and certainly in, um, Wellington. I'll [01:14:30] ring, um, James Rice at the back there. And, uh and we'll, uh, you know, facilitate a what we call a western block, um, test, um, which is a confirmatory test. Uh, but the main thing is to make sure that they are safe and that that they Yeah, II, I kept well informed. And and, uh, the biggest thing I think from A from a newly diagnosed, uh, from from from new newly diagnosed person, is they Generally [01:15:00] what happens is, um, they shut down and they everything that you're saying to them they are just thinking about other things. So they're not thinking about, um what you're telling them. So I guess The main thing is just sort of just make sure they're safe. Um, And, uh, and, you know, eventually sort of keep talking to them about, um uh, when when it's appropriate to support them, um, in in whatever they need. [01:15:30] Uh, and and of course, talking to another positive person is a is a big plus. Um, we've had several people that, uh, we have, uh, engaged with and, uh, we offer, um you know, other services. So one on one counselling or group counselling sessions with other positive people. And of course, the journey that a positive person has gone through is very powerful to a newly diagnosed person because you can tell them your story and you can show them that [01:16:00] Hey, you know, you're no longer going to die of this virus. In fact, I think you will back me up, Nigel, that, uh, we had, uh, a specialist come out from Australia and said a a positive person's life expectancy, uh, against a negative person is actually as far as gay men as far as men go, um is greater because we get to go to the doctor once every six months or once once a year, and we get our blood pressure taken and we get our [01:16:30] doctor touch us and, you know, check us all over and, uh, and and do all the normal stuff. Um, whereas men generally don't go to the doctors unless they're absolutely sick. Uh, and something is absolutely wrong with them, So, yeah, that's our, um, our way of doing testing. Thank you. Um, yeah, just in terms of your question [01:17:00] there, Um, I think you know, it's hard to crystal ball gaze. Exactly. But I do think, um, that I hope you don't mind when we hassle about people stopping smoking incessantly and things like that because, um, those things do make a big difference. And and I think, um, some of the day to day things like that, uh, simple things like blood pressure control will make a big difference for people with HIV. And sometimes if they are being attended to rather than neglected, [01:17:30] that will will make a positive difference. Um uh, I think Yeah. So, um, the the the counselling is obviously, um when in the eighties, when there was no effective treatment, You know, there there was quite a lot of consideration about whether to get tested at all. Um, because it came with so much abuse. Um, but now that treatment [01:18:00] is, um, you know, not, uh, perfect, but, uh, but, you know, very effective. Uh, then it it really is important that more people are diagnosed, and And I think, um, so the counselling shouldn't go the other way. You know, you one was describing where there's no counselling at all, but it also it needs to be somewhere balanced so that more testing is done. Because at the moment, uh, still, you know, half of people [01:18:30] who are diagnosed are diagnosed roughly too late. And, you know, we we want there to be earlier diagnosis. And, you know, more extensive diagnosis of people who don't know that they are infected. Hm. Hm. Tell you when I was diagnosed, um, almost two years ago, my [01:19:00] first water pool was the NZNZ area, because that's the only place I knew. Um, and then I moved on to the body. Positive go, which has been both have been very helpful to me to even get as far as I have today. I think one of the challenges that we have here in New Zealand is that although we offer really [01:19:30] good services within the organisations here, we're not universal. We're not everywhere And so the majority of diagnoses that actually come from for in New Zealand for people with HIV positive do not come through any of the organisations represented here. Most of them come through sexual health clinics for GPS, and it really relies on those people and their at their primary interface to actually try and engage these people with, um positive services. Now we are limited by capacity. [01:20:00] I mean, New Zealand AIDS Foundation has really only got offices in Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch. We've got contract councils all over the country, um, body positive, similar, you know, with only Auckland and Wellington. But a lot of people are not actually necessarily seeing service in the areas or recognising service in the areas. And I think that's one of the challenges that we have to have to face up to. So when people are getting diagnosed, even though they might want to talk to somebody, they don't necessarily get put in the right place. And I think there's a job for all of us to do to make sure [01:20:30] that with primary primary health and with the GPS and also with, um, the sexual health clinics around the country that we actually get better at being able to connect with those people who are newly diagnosed to offer them support and some some form of contact at that time. Yeah, I'd really like to, um, endorse that as well. I mean, for me personally, I think it was that, um, belonging to a support network and belonging. Going to counselling was something that really helped me through those early years. Um, [01:21:00] and subsequently I've ended up working in an organisation that offers that support. And what I do find nowadays in particular is because because we're only one small organisation that with our focus, is on women and families. And we're based in Auckland. And there's roughly 500 women in New Zealand living with HIV, and they're scattered all over the country. And so it's really hard to have access or to get those women to have access. You know, if you're living [01:21:30] in in I don't know, core. Um, actually, it's not. It's not a good example because we have one of our She's very active down there. But, you know, some small little, you know, um, rural community. Um even even though we have an 0 800 phone number so that people can call us at any time, it still feels very distant for that person, you know, it's a phone call. It's somebody at the end of the phone. I mean, for some people, it's something. But for a lot of people, it's like, Oh, well, I'll just get on with it. And [01:22:00] and I think in this day and age that things have changed because of the medications. And even though we provide a lot of services in Auckland, we find that a lot of our members don't actually take them up because they're out working now and they're out living their lives. And really, what we're seeing is that people want to be part of an organisation, but only when they need it. So you know, it's it's quite interesting, So to be able to sustain like there's no point. There's no way that we could even afford to have an office in Wellington [01:22:30] or in Christchurch or anywhere else. Um, there isn't the need for it. We couldn't afford it. Um So it's quite difficult to to reach, um, everyone. And it's difficult in, Um, I suppose, um, for our organisation, we we're sort of based, semi rural, and I do a lot of travelling. I do a lot of driving around the country, and the the people that we're supporting are [01:23:00] living in very, very isolated rural areas. Um, most of them, hardly anyone knows their status. And what enables us to actually do this is if you've heard it press in the press in free media. It is because of, um, water that we're able to actually go and meet with these people. Sometimes we get to meet with their Sometimes it's just them. Um, we're always referring them to in a body positive and positive [01:23:30] women. And, you know, if they successfully do go through to those support services, it's a It's a, uh what do you call it? A goal for us. Um, but it doesn't happen all the time. And and I'd like to say that you know those those Maori living with HIV in isolation, they really take isolation to the extreme, where, um, the fear of being associated with an organisation is huge. Even to get me and me half the time I get to them [01:24:00] through someone who knows someone and and it's a phone call or a text message and I'll meet them at some bar or shady little town somewhere. And, you know, they don't want me to go to their house yet. And I really have to be. I have to be, um, aware of the environment that I'm going into and who I'm talking to and speaking their language. You know, I can't go in there and start talking UN aids. You know, I'm gonna come right down to their ground level and and talk and find out what's happening for them [01:24:30] at that. What's what's the biggest need for them? And, uh, last year I was actually getting quite nervous because a lot of them are coming forward, not wanting to have treatment and and was really as part of their water process is actually, you know, looking after their well-being. Is that how do you get people onto treatment? And I'd like to say out of, um, 21 water that we've done in the last 18 months. All of them are on medication now, and I'd say easily. 50% of them [01:25:00] went before and and that that, to me is just one at a time is the only way that we can do it. And it's really hard because you have all the psychological psychosocial issues, all the, um, situations like, um, one particular. She lived with eight family members. Taking a handful of pills, one at one time, once a day wasn't just an easy thing to do because everyone would see her doing it. [01:25:30] Any questions from the floor? Jim? Just simply the question of isolation. Is it? Is it another way of saying people are poor as well? I find it the What was it the the median income in New Zealand is 24,000. I think it wasn't inequality that inequality a New Zealand, uh, issued question. Um, it seems I. I spent [01:26:00] a lot of my time looking or thinking about that. The base. Some of the basic economic questions. Um, it doesn't seem to be very happy in those terms. And when people have money in their pockets and they have work and these actors less at risk or they're not working part time, the whole sort of economic tone of the country. Um, is that is that a lot of the times it impacts on travel getting to their specialist, But they they don't [01:26:30] want to go to a specialist If they if it's 23 or four hours away. Um, even though some of the like the DH BS do reimburse travel, it's after the fact. So then a lot of times we've actually given out money to in the front so that they could actually get to the appointments. So, yes, the economics is a huge thing. Um, the I don't quote me on exact I. I haven't seen the latest census data, but, um, for a Maori and, um, a median average income from a Maori [01:27:00] is around 15,000 a year. So you get is a whole different level again. And a lot of our are are living in, um, communal situations where you know, these Mom, Dad, brother, sister, all sharing a very small space. And and that brings up other issues around, um, their safety. Uh, what else can I talk about? There jobs and things like sickness, benefits. They've gone and applied for sickness, benefits from wins, and they've had stigma, discrimination in wins [01:27:30] offices. Um, because instantly, if you disclose your status, you must be gay, a drug user or a prostitute. And it might not be any of those things, but that's the the judgement that's put on you or a slut. Um, imagine if you are all of those things. Yes, exactly. Good on you. But again, again, it sort of it. It impacts even on them wanting to disclose at at at office? [01:28:00] Um, yeah. I think isolation, definitely you're talking about definitely is an issue for some people. Particularly, um, some of the immigrants you know who are tested through immigration testing. Um, uh, I think the, um, income, you know, is definitely a factor. There was the futures to study a few years ago. It hasn't been repeated for quite a while, but, um um, but yeah, I think the, um, people's income is often a factor in access [01:28:30] to primary care. You know, body positive has been doing a lot of work around that, um, we we have a a social worker part time, uh, who helps with things like housing and social work issues. Uh, but that's those are definitely, um, practical issues. Um, there are some, um uh, migrant people who are very isolated. Really? Just come to see the doctor. Um and it's quite it would be quite nice to [01:29:00] connect them with support organisations more actually, but, um kind of, um, getting them over that hurdle is is sometimes a challenge. Um and so, you know, we'd be pleased to be any clues about how to do that better. Um, obviously, people like James there have a great deal of experience and and here and support issues too. I've got 10 minutes left to go, and I think I think we might sort of think about [01:29:30] the future. One of the things that I've been, uh, I'm aware of is that we talk about stigma and the word aids seems to be absolutely steeped with stigma and and one of the things I've probably had to deal with more, uh, when I've been out and about is actually explaining to people the difference between HIV and AIDS. Actually, people don't really know. Um it was really funny. I hope [01:30:00] you don't mind, Gareth, but, um, Gareth and I were talking last Thursday and it's it's really simple, but actually surprise Gath a little bit that actually I had a AIDS diagnosis back in 98. And then by 1999 I was not. I didn't have an AIDS diagnosis, and actually, people still get very confused around HIV and a I DS and and actually [01:30:30] in the West, we're almost entering a post AIDS era. Yes, we are getting people who are presenting with AIDS, but they shouldn't be. They should have been tested before, and they shouldn't be getting to that point. The Terrence Higgins Trust have actually dropped the words a I DS They don't use it anymore. They use the word they they have HIV and progressive HIV. So you're HIV positive. And if you do get really sick, then they'll use the term progressive [01:31:00] HIV. Part of that was to deal with the stigma that that that aids the word aids. It's dealing with that stigma and so they don't use use it anymore. And the argument is that really people in the West um, I have to say, because it's not global, but really, um, in the West, people actually really die of an AIDS related illness. They might die of, uh uh there might be a complication around HIV. Um, [01:31:30] but actually, it's it's It's not often that you're gonna get, um, people dying of AIDS. So I think that's, um, thoughts from the panel on on on terminology. Do you think we should be dropping age? Do you think we should be more clear around? What's the difference between HIV and A I DS, um Do you also have that experience of people mixing the two up quite regularly? I mean, I could [01:32:00] quite often get you know, you're an AIDS person, and it's like, actually, I'm not I'm HIV positive. I don't have AIDS. So, um yes, Excellent. At the end, Nigel, It certainly is that AIDS isn't the predominant issue anymore. Um, it it won't be gone, but, um, but it really when it was the eighties and the early nineties, when it was the predominant issue. You know, the issue is more about, um, [01:32:30] about other health care, um, support and some of the other issues that you've talked about. So, um, in that sense, it makes sense to not talk about AIDS as much or to talk about us being in a different era. Um, where it's not not the prime issue anymore. Mhm. I'm I'm gonna put on two hats. My first hat is, um, from [01:33:00] an indigenous world view. Um, we are still rating quite highly in the AIDS being diagnosed at AIDS stage, Um, Maori, Pacific, and and and indigenous. I'm talking about West western world. Um, I think a lot of the times is again around health access to, um, testing health disparities. Not really knowing what illnesses are and and and and being in situations where there aren't doctors that can say, Oh, that might be an AIDS related [01:33:30] illness or not. You know, those sorts of things can happen. That's one thing. Also, um, we're seeing a lot, not just in New Zealand, but in Australia and Canada. Um, we're seeing a lot of, uh, indigenous people just choosing, um, to have aids to actually not take medication to, actually. Um, like I said before, um, let it go. Its gauntlet, I suppose. And some of them, um, I have a really good friend, an aboriginal friend who is quite proud to [01:34:00] say that she's got AIDS and that she's never actually got a CD four above the level that takes her out of an AIDS diagnosis. So there's there's kind of there's a way of claiming it and making it a positive thing as well. Um, I don't think we're ready to to eliminate it yet, and and I mean, it would be nice to think so in a New Zealand context. But we have an epidemic in the Pacific Islands. We have numbers going up in Australia. Um, I. I don't think we're at that stage where we [01:34:30] can say it's over yet. They haven't got the cure yet. Um, so I I'd like to be hopeful. Um, however, on a personal level, I always say I'm HIV positive and and educate on what a IS is. I've never had an AIDS related illness. I've never been anywhere near the AIDS numbers to to have AIDS. Um, but I do get a lot of how can two HIV positive people have HIV negative Children, You know that? That's the kind of questions I get. [01:35:00] They they people really can't understand how that medically biologically happens. So I mean, I use it as an example to explain it. Yeah, I just think just because something doesn't sound nice, you shouldn't get rid of it. I mean, it doesn't make it go away. It's still there. And I think globally, um, AIDS is there. There's thousands millions of people dying every you know, every year with AIDS related illness. [01:35:30] It's still there. So I, I think it would be, um, inappropriate to get rid of the word. Um, I guess, you know, just because you don't like the connotations, I think it's better to educate. And I think we would be looking to do that. And I guess looking to the future I mean, for the last three years, I've actually worked as the, um, Asia Pacific NGO representative to the on the UN AIDS board, and they're now doing their, [01:36:00] you know, future plans and looking at 2020. I mean, they're looking at talking now that, um, there won't be a UN AIDS because HIV will become another ST I and will be incorporated into general health and general sexual health. And it won't be a standalone um, So you know the fact that people are not dying and you know, in the future, the more people that get access to medications, people won't be dying, and we won't be seeing so many people. Um, with AIDS, [01:36:30] I think it will reduce. Um And I think we will see quite a different picture in the next 20 years. Um, some goods, you know, that that's that's good to that. Um, but I also personally, I guess, feel that, um HIV is quite different to a lot of the other STIs. And I do feel that it needs a little bit more attention than than it needs to be a stand alone. That's my opinion. Which means nothing. [01:37:00] Yeah, personally, I, I am relatively ambivalent with someone. Thinks I have AIDS or someone thinks I have HIV. I don't care. I don't want to be one of those people that says I'm gay. Yes, I have HIV, but I don't have a IS. Somehow having HIV is better than not having AIDS. It's part of that stigma. It's part of that double labelling. And I would prefer that it's just one word, actually, Um, you know, a funny story. I had a friend of mine I was meeting for for lunch the other week and [01:37:30] she text me to say she's got cancer. She text me to say I'm sorry I'm running late. I've got cancer. And I said, Well, I've got AIDS. I've still made it on time, you know, um, I, I think I think we've got to be a little bit not too precious about the language. I think the points are really well made. That that that it doesn't really matter where you are on the continuum of this virus. We have this virus that is going to affect our lives one way or the other. I don't really care where it crosses one definition into another, and it will vary from country to country. I mean, we're [01:38:00] already you know, whether whether the CD four count is 201 104 105 100 it really doesn't matter. You know, in a westernised world, we're probably heading towards the point where, um you know, within time the the the treatment diagnosis will in terms of the access to treatment. If we decided between the clinician and the patient, it won't actually be decided by an arbitrary number that's picked out the year that someone else decides. I So I would rather there was just one word for it, because we are all in the same boat. And yeah, so [01:38:30] that's where I sit on it. So yeah. I. I would just like to see HIV, to be honest. Um, just from the point of view that AIDS was, um, an old term Well, it's I mean, I hear what the panel is saying about overseas and in the Pacific and that, but in New Zealand, it's it's, uh, you know, it's HIV that is is happening, uh, predominantly, [01:39:00] Um, and AIDS, to me is is an old an old thing. Um uh, and I just sort of feel that, um when people call me Oh, you've got AIDS or you've got, um HIV I. I feel that HIV is a more nicer word, You know that because it because it's true, it's true. Whereas I don't have aids. Um, [01:39:30] and that's maybe just that. That's just my feeling. Anyway, that's, um what I sort of feel I just I just, um Yeah, age to me is is a long time ago. Um, yeah, yeah, that's me. I have a tendency to agree with Jane. Um, I've probably been writing about [01:40:00] HIV and along with been any journalist in New Zealand. Now I think and practically on a weekly basis. And in the last few years I've had to struggle with how I how I write up HIV because I had two or three different audiences and we had two different audiences here. We have people with HIV and we have people without HIV and the situation is different from both. Uh, I've been taken to task [01:40:30] by people with HIV for making HIV up to be a bad thing. And it generally goes along the lines of How do you add, uh, a negative connotation to HIV when I'm trying to make give myself positive feelings and reinforce my sense of self-worth and the fact that I have overcome the HIV and I'm living with HIV? But I'm a well relative person, blah, blah, blah, and my reaction is generally it's a shame we've got HIV, [01:41:00] but you do have resources to support you. Mostly, we ignore that we finesse the way out of out of isolation and and and and and and scattered population. But in general you have medics who are available to help you come to terms with the mechanics of what's happening with you. There is supportive information available. People without HIV are the ones in our gay community who are in danger [01:41:30] of getting it. And so we have to make it relevant. And that underscores every story that I write. So then I have to say, How do I make this relevant? How do I make this story into a reminder to people who don't yet have HIV, that it's not a good thing to get, And you have to avoid this if you possibly can, and we minimise to take the emotion and take the the difficulty out of HIV if we start treating it as herbs, [01:42:00] which is also untreatable. But nobody seems to worry that he is very much in, and I put cream carry on I if we minimise HIV just because it's, uh because AIDS is old fashioned or because it's not quite technically correct anymore or because it's not quite so relevant. We take away one of the most potent words we have on grabbing people by the walls and saying [01:42:30] HIV could affect you really badly, and I know it's not quite true, but we haven't got many other things that are our arsenal as writers to hit the button on this one. And if we just move everything out IV, HIV we lose the message and then we start losing the battle against it. We succumb to a thing that says as well, because it's not such a big problem. We just medicate it. [01:43:00] Well, that's just life. And everybody ends up with HIV and everybody ends up medicated. You know, governments will eventually be able to find all the money to do that and and we'll all get on with it. And I think it's a very dangerous thing to do until we've got an alternative. I wish there was an alternative. I can can't find it fair. Is there anyone else that wants to just hang up a quick before you up? And I [01:43:30] is. I used it. I'd like to see, um, at some point, um, it become HIV become more mainstream, and I like the idea of it. Um I love I love the term IV positive cancer. Um, I've been with cancer for years, changing my technology from a patient or victim to cancer. Survivor has done a hell [01:44:00] of a lot for me personally, emotionally. And look, you you saying the same things you you get withdrawn. You you don't talk about things. You, um What I would hate to see, uh, in any near future is the attention that HIV and Aid gets and the, um, writers to actually utilise it and to still have the attention, Gran. [01:44:30] Oh, those those very small words. But they still gonna do a hell of a lot to look someone into that article to read more. Um, I've learned a hell of a lot in the last couple of years about, um HIV aids STIs, um, and everything else to to do with, um, sexual health. And I'm one of these people that thought HIV and AIDS was the same thing. Um, [01:45:00] I'm not lying. Not even though I was, you know, the the I seem to have missed a whole portion of the media at some point in my life, quite possibly when I was little and not paying attention to the rest of the world. Um, but I think it if the UN aids are looking at 2020 or, you know, in the future at some point of mainstream things, Yeah, that would be that would be good. That gives us a safe [01:45:30] environment, but I think we better get it right before we made it mainstream and stuff. OK, I think, um, it's gone 8. 30. Um, we'll just go back to the panel, and then we'll wrap it up. Yeah, I think, um, it it's trying to It's trying to have a sort of a balance [01:46:00] between, um, um, positive view of things as you're describing and also and but not minimising things either. I think, um, as much as we do, What are we that you know? There are, um, health concerns around risks to do with heart disease and cancer and other health problems, which appear to be, um, which have a greater increased, um, risk. Um, and even though people [01:46:30] talk about it, you know, being a, you know, a chronic, manageable condition, Um, which compared to other things like diabetes, you know, those are significant health problems as well. So and plus having to come and see doctors all the time. And they have blood tests. And, um uh, and, um, uh, the other aspects the subtle, you know, psychological effects of being positive that, um, that it's, [01:47:00] uh it's important not to minimise. And, you know, I think the challenges around prevention and having to keep up the efforts there, you know, are gonna clearly be important, you know, combining all the measures that are known to be helpful. So, um yeah, so I think it's important to, um to not lose sight of the importance of prevention as well as, um, trying to put a positive face on on [01:47:30] on the care of people just quickly. Um, just just, um with what Jay was saying as well. I think I'm gonna plug Public Speakers Bureau here, the Public Speakers Bureau. For people living with HIV, there is a within the training. There's a lot on how to actually navigate that by putting a positive swing on it, but also, um, putting a reality swing on it. You know, the reality is, we do to take really strong medication every day. If we miss that [01:48:00] and we bugger it up, we've got to start another regime, you know? So there's those reality stories around the medication that we have. Um I have diabetes, high blood pressure. I've got all those other, you know, added stuff that Doctor Nigel is talking about. But also too, um, I'd like to say that on a global level Um, there's a There's a real strong movement of people living with HIV and and I. I say I am a person living with HIV and I know that there's 30 million of [01:48:30] us and and quite across the world as far as advocacy and activism. You know, there's some really strong gay men activists out there doing such amazing things and things like the World AIDS Conference, which is in Melbourne this year in July, and we and we have our indigenous pre conference, which is in Sydney. It's in those places I've been on the last two, in International AIDS Conference organising committees. What I've seen there is the most the strength [01:49:00] of the people living with HIV, really calling the shots at that level and and the PC B that that Jane has been on, you know, the the we should be proud to be people living with HIV. That's how I feel, Um, in New Zealand, Yes, you know, there there's we're limited because we're so far away from the world, but the social media that the Internet, all those things, bring the world so much closer I'm talking to international countries every single [01:49:30] day on Skype every day. And there's a chance there for all of us living with HIV to be part of a huge community of really strong, positive people living with HIV. So yeah, I don't really know how to finish it up. I don't think it can be finished. There's no end. Really? No. I mean, there's still a lot of work to do. I mean, I do find, um in my role as a coordinator for for positive women that I wear. I talk [01:50:00] two different talks to whoever my audience is. So as a newly diagnosed positive woman comes in, you talk about all the positives to to, you know, make her feel better and to make her feel hopeful. And and and then when you're speaking to people on the prevention side, you bring up all the things that was was saying and one of the things I often say, especially when talking to to school Children is like, just imagine, at 16 you were diagnosed with HIV and then you have to tell your friends [01:50:30] and then later on, when you meet your girlfriend or your boyfriend, you have to tell them. And you know there might be rejection there and, you know, then you have to go on to having Children, and that can't always be done naturally. And then you have Children, and then you have to tell your Children and you have to go on to medications and there's side effects from the medication. So it's and there's there's stigma, right? And so it it is quite different to other STIs, and it's still, um, it's not a pleasant thing to live with, and you [01:51:00] wouldn't want anyone to have it. So it's about balancing balancing that, and I think, yeah, I think we just have to keep on keeping on. Just keep on, Keep on. And as far as the Positive Speakers Bureau, I just, um, positive Women managers is on behalf of all of the, um, the support network. So it's belongs to all of us. It's just that it's easier for one organisation to manage it, and and so we run groups every two twice [01:51:30] a year to to train people who are living with HIV, how to how to go about speaking publicly, and then we really push to try and get into schools and get into hospitals and get into conferences and get those people to go out and talk about being positive and and what it's like. And so it's. And I think that's what we have to keep doing. We have to keep educating education. Is is the biggest thing, and we have to keep pushing for that. And I'd like to see HIV tagged onto the STISTIS [01:52:00] and HIV. This is this N HIV just so that it can be in everybody's conscious a little bit more. That's me. I think there'll always be a tension between me as an individual wanting to live a happy, positive, engaged reward in life and me also not wanting anyone else to catch this virus. And if the price of me helping someone else not get that [01:52:30] virus is that my life is a little less good or a little more awkward, then that's the price I'm prepared to pay. It's really easy to sit back and say, Well, HIV isn't what it was or AIDS isn't what it was because it's kind of isn't that that's the true, isn't it? In this world, anyone but the reality is we don't want it. We don't want diarrhoea all the time. We don't want to be vomiting. We don't want to have the headaches. We don't want to have the fatigue, [01:53:00] you know, with the best medication in the world. That is what we live with. And, you know, I will put myself out there and be a little uncomfortable to stop someone from feeling that living with HIV is a comfortable experience. It isn't. And I think we have to come back to that point. And there's always going to be that tension between making people with HIV feel valued and part of the community and alive and [01:53:30] help them and resource them all that stuff. But we've got to stop people getting this virus. Thanks, sir. I think, uh, everyone has said what I want to say. So I'm gonna use this as a bit of a, um uh, a plug for our candlelight memorial service. Uh, on Sunday, the 18th at, uh, papa museum. We've got, um, a number of guest speakers, politicians, uh, two choirs, performers, Uh, at 2. 30 on Sunday, the [01:54:00] 18th. So do come along. If you if you can, it'll be a wonderful, wonderful night. And then afterwards a rush bar are putting on a tribute, Uh, candlelight tribute, uh, straight after at about 5 p. m. um, with, uh, a charity auction and nibbles and drinks and party time to celebrate those that have gone, which is Thank you, everyone. Thank you for coming along. Thank you. And thanks to the panel, it's been really [01:54:30] good. And it's great that we're having discussions like this and let's hope they carry on and they don't have to be in this format. Have them at your dinner parties and have these discussions around the table and have coffee. And it's, um it ain't going away. You're absolutely right. We're gonna have to live with HIV and a IS for a for the unforeseeable future. And, um, we need to be talking and and preventing the spread of it. Thanks, everyone. [01:55:00] Cheers.

IRN: 887
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089592
TITLE: Parliament: second reading of the Sullivan Birth Certificate Bill
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VOICES: Carol Beaumont; Chris Auchinvole; Denis O'Rourke; Jami-Lee Ross; Kanwaljit Singh Bakshi; Kevin Hague; Louisa Wall; Melissa Lee; Moana Mackey; Paul Hutchison; Poto Williams; Ruth Dyson; Scott Simpson
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Carol Beaumont; Chris Auchinvole; Denis O'Rourke; Diane Sullivan; Doreen Shields; Jami-Lee Ross; Kanwaljit Singh Bakshi; Kevin Hague; Louisa Wall; Melissa Lee; Moana Mackey; Parliament TV; Parliament buildings; Paul Hutchison; Poto Williams; Rowen Sullivan; Ruth Dyson; Scott Simpson; Sullivan Birth Certificate Bill (2013); Wellington; children; family; human rights; lesbian; parents; politics
DATE: 19 February 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the second reading of the Sullivan Birth Certificate Bill. It was introduced into Parliament by Louisa Wall and read for a second time on 19 February 2014. The Bill passed its second reading unanimously.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: And we call now on private and local order of the day. Number two Sullivan Birth certificate Bill. Second reading. Mr. Speaker, I move that the Sullivan Birth certificate bill be now. Read a second time, Mr Speaker. This private bill allows the birth details of Rowan Sullivan to record the reality of her family. As the Select committee states in its report. [00:00:30] The bill with the amendments recommended will make what is a matter of fact that Diane Sullivan and Dorian Shields are Rowan Sullivan's parents. A Matter of law For those who are not familiar with the background, this bill arose out of the fact that Rowan Sullivan cannot by law have the names of both her parents on her birth certificate after seven years together. Her parents, Diane Sullivan and Doreen Shields, had a daughter who was born [00:01:00] by an assisted human reproduction procedure to Diane on the 23rd of February 1993. At that time, only Diane's name was recorded on Rowan's birth certificate as her birth mother. In 2006, Diane was diagnosed with a terminal illness and passed away in 2010, when Rowan was 17. At that time, Rowan and Doreen decided that Doreen would apply for an adoption order as that was the [00:01:30] only legal option available to them to record their parent child relationship. But in doing that, Doreen received a new birth certificate with just Doreen's name on it and her mother. Diane's name was removed. That was the law. But it means the reality of Rowan's upbringing and family was not recorded, and there was no ability for her or Doreen to take advantage of changes made by the Status of Children Act [00:02:00] and last year's Marriage Amendment Act. Rowan's age in the passing of Diane meant that was not possible. A private bill is the only way Roan's parents can both be recorded on her birth registration details from which a new birth certificate can be issued. I particularly want to acknowledge the members of the Government Administration Select Committee so aptly chaired by the honourable Ruth Dyson for their work and the amendments to the bill that they have [00:02:30] recommended. The amendments reflect the commitment of the Select committee to understand what this bill is seeking. The amendments recommended by the Select committee clarify what what this bill is about. It's about Rowan Sullivan having the names of both her parents on her birth certificate. The select committee has rightly renamed this private bill the Sullivan birth registration bill because it's the details held of Rowan's birth registration, which currently [00:03:00] record the adoption order in the name of Doreen Shields that are the basis for the issuing of Rowan's birth certificate. Should this bill pass, Rowan's parents will legally be the two women who were her parents in true life, Diane Sullivan and Doreen Shields. On a personal note, I would also like to thank the members of the Select Committee for the Manner in which they heard and reported on a matter that is extremely sensitive for the promoter, Rowan Sullivan, [00:03:30] and her living parent, Doreen Shields, who I acknowledge in the House. Tonight. Doreen and Rowan have asked that I pass on their thanks to the select committee and Doreen's words. She told me, and I quote, Rowan and I had no idea what to expect from the select committee. We thought it might be quite intimidating, and we wondered if maybe they wouldn't really be very interested in the bill. As it turned out, we didn't need to worry about either of those things. We're really impressed with the [00:04:00] care the committee took to understand what Rowan wanted to achieve with the bill and with the changes they made to it. I am honoured to be the sponsor of this bill that I recommend to the House with the amendments proposed by the Select Committee. Appropriately, I will leave the last word to the promoter of the Bill Rowan Sullivan, and I quote, It's hard to believe that I'm about to turn 21 and and hopefully very close to finally having official recognition of both my parents. [00:04:30] I feel very lucky to live in a country where it's possible for that to happen. The question is that the motion be agreed to Oh, Chris Hocken. Thank you, Mr Speaker, In the, uh, very brief amount of time available just before dinner, I'd like to begin my speech in support of the Sullivan birth certificate bill, [00:05:00] uh, which is set down for its second reading and sponsored very ably, may I say, by labour MP Louisa Wall, with whom it was a pleasure to work with Mr Speaker, The purpose of the bill the bill will require the registrar general of birth deaths and marriages to record the details of Rowan Sullivan's deceased mother on her post adoptive birth registry entry. It may well be, Mr Speaker that people [00:05:30] consider that something of a a technical detail. And indeed, when we saw the bill before us, we thought that it did have a very technical aspect to it. Um, the reality was, though, that it also had a very, very personal aspect. This is one of those occasions, Mr Speaker, when the only solution available to the applicant was available through Parliament. [00:06:00] It has no effect on any other person. And it can be done for that person. I think time has come to suspend the house for dinner. I shall resume the chair at 7. 30. I agree. The house is resumed. [00:06:30] Honourable members. I can do it. Honourable members, uh, when we were last here, I understand that the Honourable member Chris Oval, uh, was speaking. He has eight minutes and 30 seconds remaining if he so wishes to seek the court. Mr. Speaker, I call the Honourable Member Chris [00:07:00] Oval. Mr. Speaker. Thank you, Mr Speaker. And it is a pleasure to, uh, resume speaking. about the Sullivan birth certificate bill as we had spoken, uh, earlier. This is one of those occasions in Parliament where the legislation can do something for someone that nothing else can do, that it only [00:07:30] applies to that individual person and, in fact, that there are no negative elements at all associated with the passage of this bill. It requires the registered general of births, deaths and marriages to record the details of Rowan Sullivan's deceased mother on her post adoptive birth registration entry. Mr. Speaker, we heard from Louisa Walls, who introduced the bill, And I don't doubt we'll hear an echo [00:08:00] from Ruth Dyson, the chair of the Government Admin Select Committee. Uh, that there was apprehension on the part of the, uh, the applicants for the bill that they would be perceived as wasting our time or not having a a significant thing for us to do, requiring a a bill of their own. But this is a member's bill. This is what these times are set aside for, and [00:08:30] anyone, of course, who knows. The honourable Ruth Dyson, uh, would would realise that they would be guaranteed a good reception, I'm sure, but for those members who would like to know Mr Speaker, the minutia of how this came about we can through the good services of, uh, the sponsor of the bill, Louisa Wall. We can provide a summary of the events, and [00:09:00] I would like to read that to the House now for members opposite, I should be conducting a small written test afterwards to see how much of what you remembered and understood. But this is the complexities of the situation. Rowan Sullivan's parents from birth were Diane Sullivan, her birth mother, and Diane Sullivan's female partner. Dorian Shields got that bit. Diane Sullivan died in 2010, when Rowan was 17 years old. [00:09:30] Doreen Shields chose not to adopt Rowan while Diane Sullivan was still alive. As this would have required the removal of Diane Sullivan, the birth mother's name, from Rowan Sullivan's birth certificate, Dorian Shields instead applied to be an additional guardian. This expired on Rowan Sullivan's 18th birthday. Dorian Shields then applied for an adoption order following the death of Diane Sullivan. [00:10:00] The order was made on the 15th of January 2013. However, that order required that Diane Sullivan's name be removed from Rowan Sullivan's birth certificate and for those who are still travelling the journey with us all. And let's remember, this was a journey that someone actually travelled. Doreen, uh, had Diane Sullivan and Dorian Shield been able to legally marry, they would have been jointly able to apply [00:10:30] to adopt Rowan. If this had occurred, they would both have been named as her parents on her birth record following the Marriage Definition Definition of Marriage Amendment Act 2013, which, coincidentally went through the same select committee. Same sex couples are able to marry and are therefore able to apply jointly to adopt Children. So I think anyone would be forgiven for not completely following the intricacies of those [00:11:00] events, Mr Speaker. But the, uh And it was a credit to the members of the committee. Everyone paid avid interest. Uh, the recipients or the applicants for the bill, um, gave a really useful, uh, submission to the select committee, which really made things very apparent to us. There were then the, uh aspects that had to be considered, uh, [00:11:30] that we required officials advice from and again, I really want to say to those who are watching this evening or listening on the radio that the advice one gets as a parliamentarian is first class in New Zealand first class, and I think almost every member would agree with that. Perhaps there is the odd occasion when something might not quite come up to the mark. But for the most part, I don't think MP S can really justifiably say they couldn't find [00:12:00] something out because we have a superb library, superb library and the quality of officials and the quality of official advice. Uh, I've always found to be to be excellent. I see some nods from people whose academic, academic background I have great respect for and they have been in a position of comparison. Uh, and and this was one example, I think, where the smaller details were taken into account [00:12:30] so that in setting a precedent, if it were creating a precedent, there would be no harm done as it is. Mr. Speaker, this, uh uh, bill doesn't set precedent. Uh, because the circumstances are almost unique. You can't use the phrase almost unique. I can see Mr Felson bristling at the very suggestion I'd like Mr Speaker, I'd formally like to withdraw that remark. I did not say or did not intend [00:13:00] to say, Dear dear, I did not intend to say almost unique because that's a stupid, uh, conflict of, of, of terms. But this is a relatively unusual situation. It would be most surprising if the circumstances were ever duplicated in exactly the same order. And so this will not be a repeatable situation. And the proposed clause. The addition of Clause four that the committee recommends, [00:13:30] uh, would make it clear that Diane Sullivan and Dorian Margaret Shields are, for all purposes, the parents of Rowan Sullivan, Mr Speaker, It was a really interesting bill from all points of view, not just in respect of the family concerned, but in consideration of how we are identified as individuals, I would have thought, and I know other committee members shared it with me that your birth certificate was it. [00:14:00] But in fact it's not it. It's simply a record of what is recorded within the record system. And so it was a very interesting journey through the identification of individuals and the linkage with other people through relationships. It's been a pleasure to be part of this bill. It's been educative, informative, and I understand from the comments relayed [00:14:30] from the family, it's been considered useful. I commend this bill to the house. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I call the Honourable Ruth Dyson. Um, thank you, Mr Speaker. It gives me a lot of pleasure to speak in the second reading of the, uh, Sullivan birth certificate. Bill. And I want to begin by, um, paying a tribute to the sponsor of the bill, Um, my colleague Lewis of and say that, um, yet again she has brought issues to this house that have caused a lot [00:15:00] of interest. Um, we've had a lot of consideration at the select committee, and I'm pleased that it was referred to our select committee. It was, uh, a real privilege to be part of that process. I want to pay a tribute to our committee members. Some of the issues were, um, more complex than we perhaps had originally considered. Um, and both the select committee members and the officials deserve a note of tribute for the way that they gave and received. Um, a a lot of questions and a lot of answers, and I think that really, um, paid respect [00:15:30] to the bill itself and the purpose of the bill. Um, but more than, uh, Louisa Wall and the select committee members and the officials, I want to pay tribute to the three women. Um, who this bill is about, uh, the late Diane Sullivan. Dorian Shields and their daughter, Rowan Sullivan. Uh, this bill is really a bit of a love story. It's a story about the relationship that Diane and Dorian had and the fact that they raised [00:16:00] their daughter together in times that were perhaps a little ahead of the societal recognition And what is, uh, not an unusual practise now of same sex couple couples raising Children together. So I want to pay a tribute. First of all to, um, to Doreen and her, her love and mother of her daughter, the late Diane and their daughter Rowan. Um, Doreen and Rowan appeared before the select [00:16:30] committee, and I think most of us would recognise that a bunch of MP S sitting in a room it is not a is not an easy process. We're We're a little bit intimidating. We don't try to be, but I think we are the formality of a select committee process can also be quite daunting for people to go through, and that's at a time when you're talking about something that's quite theoretical. You might be talking about a tax change where you might be talking about something that's really, uh, one step removed from your [00:17:00] life. People find that process quite a scary prospect and often get quite rattled when they come before select committee. So to have people come to a select committee talking about the very essence of the relationships and lives and why they want us to make a law change, um took a lot of courage. And I want to particularly acknowledge the courage and strength that, uh, Doreen and Rowan showed towards each other, but also, um, acknowledge that [00:17:30] this reinforced to the committee just how important this move was. Um, this story, uh, said it all for us. Actually, um, we we understood that this was not a minor technical issue, that this really talked about the recognition of society towards their relationship. And II I know that all members of the select committee, um, were very moved by their presentation by by the reality of the situation, Um, and [00:18:00] and by the fact that we had the opportunity to recognise the relationship of Diane and Dorian and the legitimate parenting of Rowan, Uh, in the law, Uh, the the the deputy chair Chris and his contribution, um, made a comment about the fact that we thought that once we had made this clear, you know, a birth certificate would suffice for all purposes. And that was one of the many challenges that the officials threw to us. [00:18:30] That, um, this this, uh, proof of parenthood might have to be done through some other method at some time in the future. So we decided that was a nonsense. Actually, we didn't decide. I'm not saying the advice was a nonsense. We thought the requirement to do that would be a nonsense. So we've made it clear that this is it. Once parliament sets the seal on this, then Diane and Dorian are Rowan's legitimate parents for all purposes, and neither they nor parliament [00:19:00] will ever have to go through this again. And I think it was it was probably important for us to have the debate. But none of us could think of one single instance in our own lives when we'd had to produce anything other than our birth certificate with our parents name in order to prove who our parents were. Um, but anyway, we we've put it beyond doubt. Um, I trust and in committee stages. Um, I'm sure that we'll we'll make sure that that is the case. Um, Mr Mr. Speaker, as I said, [00:19:30] I want to particularly recognise, um, the love that Diane and Dorian and Rowan have and had for each other and say that Parliament doesn't often get, um, that sort of involvement in our debate. And it's a responsibility that I'm sure every member of this house will take very seriously as we go through the debate and go through the voting process. I want to quote a couple of things that Dorian said in terms of, um, how she felt, [00:20:00] um, and she said it publicly. So I'm not breaching. Um, any privacy, but it had a huge impact on me, and I'm sure it will on others how she felt when following the passing of her partner, uh, and her adoption of Rowan so that Rowan wouldn't be left as a legal orphan so that she had a legal living parent. She saw her partner's name. Rowan's [00:20:30] birth mother's name taken from the birth certificate. Uh, she said it was horrible, she said, given what Diane went through and how how she'd struggled to be there. For Rowan, it was just obscene. Quite honestly, I don't think any of us can imagine how hard that would be to watch your partner's name being taken from the birth certificate of your child, their child and, uh, your child. In order for you to become the legitimate, legitimate [00:21:00] in terms of the law parent, um, that that wrench must have been huge. And it's so good to be able to put what I think is an injustice, right? Uh, through this process. Uh, Rowan, who, of course, um, is the holder of this birth certificate and as the centre of attention and far as far as the legal change, um said, actually, it wasn't about her, she said, And I'm quoting here. It's more about my parents having me in the nineties when gay people having Children [00:21:30] was very uncommon. They showed a lot of bravery and courage. They chose to have me together and made many sacrifices to give me the best life possible, and I want that to be recognised. Legally, I had two parents, and my birth certificate should show that it doesn't seem to be a very big ask. Uh, Mr Speaker, I think it's something that every member of this house, uh, should want to support. And I certainly hope as the debate progresses, that that's where we [00:22:00] get to in in terms of the, um in terms of the recognition, uh, in the law of the legitimate parents of Rohan. As I said this earlier, this only came about, um, because of the death of Diane Sullivan. Uh, when she died is Rowan's birth mother. Rowan was legally an orphan. She had no legitimate in the law living parent, and that wasn't acceptable to her [00:22:30] mother, Dorian Shields. Um, we we all know that there can be circumstances where those legitimate relationships, um, that are not upheld in the law. Um, Mr Speaker can cause problems. So it is really important in terms of your will in terms of, um, other arrangements such as, um, medical decisions. There are many circumstances in which having a legally recognised relation mother in this case is [00:23:00] very important. And it was uh, for Dorian and Rowan. But I actually think it was important because that was the nature of their relationship. And the law was behind the eight ball. So it was only because of that situation. Um, that this this, um really unfortunate circumstance arose. We heard a lot of concerns at the select committee, not raised, um, in any attempt to undermine this, but concerns about whether this would set a precedent. Um, whether [00:23:30] it would provide unfairness to other people who may be in a situation where they didn't know who the birth parent was and found out at a later stage and wanted them put in the birth certificate. We had all sorts of discussions and considerations around that. In the end, we came back to what I think was the correct advice and certainly was, um, the leadership that Louisa Wall provided, uh, when she introduced this bill. This is a standalone situation designed specifically [00:24:00] for this family. Um, it doesn't set any precedent and and actually, if it did, I'd be very happy for any family in a similar situation to have the same legal recognition. But it is a circumstance that will not arise um, in the future because of subsequent law changes. And I think that's a very good thing I enjoy enjoyed, uh, listening to the discussion around this. I enjoyed the submissions, and I am delighted, um, to be able to support this [00:24:30] bill to progress in injustice and recognise the love and the relationship of Diane and Dorian and Rowan. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I call the Honourable Member Kamui sing Bakshi Sari. Mr. Speaker, First of all, I would like to congratulate the sponsor of this bill of all for bringing up this issue to the Parliament. And above all, I think [00:25:00] the biggest acknowledgement goes to Robin Sullivan Sullivan because it shows her respect to her parents. I think this bill, when it was introduced as the chair just now mentioned Honourable Ruth Dyson that it looked like the very simple bill which will go through quickly and come back to the parliament, report it back to the Parliament. But [00:25:30] as this bill progressed, many more technical issues came up, which were dealt very quarterly with this select committee. I would like to acknowledge the advisers to this bill who helped us to make sure that this bill passes through the Parliament with all those answers available for Robin Sullivan, this bill is a reminder, [00:26:00] Mr Speaker, that quite frequently the government can and does have a significant positive effect on people's lives at a very personal level, thereby, sir, it is important that we in this house do not forget our duty to handle these cases with respect, Mr Speaker here I would like to also acknowledge the government's Admin Select Committee, who has dealt [00:26:30] with many issues in this term whether it was marriage equality bill, whether it is in process of paid parental leave. Bill. We have learned a lot in this term in this select committee, and I acknowledge the members of the Select committee from which I have learned a lot. I feel that every day when I come to the Parliament, I learn something new, which is unique, and I acknowledge [00:27:00] all the members contributing in this house. The matter arises because of the marriage definition of Marriage Bill Amendment Bill Act passed, after which the same sex couple are able to marry and therefore make application to adopt Children. Had Dian Sullivan and Doreen Shield been able to legally marry as is the as the law now is. They would have been able [00:27:30] to jointly apply to adopt Robyn if this had occurred, they would both have been named as parents on their on her birth record here. I would like to acknowledge both the parents, Mr Speaker, because it is the their growing up, what they have given to their daughter. And she has really made a point and effort to bring this issue to this parliament so that both [00:28:00] the parents are mentioned on her birth certificate. And this is a good growing up of a good culture of the family, which I think Robyn has received from both the parents. The Marriage Definition Amendment Act 2030 13 now requires that the registrar general of birth, death and marriages to record the Diane Sullivan and Doren Shield as Roman's [00:28:30] parents. Mr. Speaker, I think this is an important piece of legislation to ensure that New Zealand, its citizens, keep up with the time and reforms where there is a need to We always have been an open minded society, Mr Speaker, we have always listened to what citizens of this country want due to our nature. Mr Speaker Since 2005, New Zealand law has [00:29:00] allowed both same sex parents of New Zealand born Children conceived through assisted human reproductive technology produced to be named on the child's birth record. The change was retroactive so that pre 2005 New Zealand birth registration record can be amended on application at any time to include both same sex parents. Details. There is absolutely [00:29:30] no doubt that this law change will bring smile on the Sullivan family. Mr. Speaker, can I share that? The law already contains rule for changing a birth record in other circumstances, including, but not limited to the situation where a parent order is obtained. An individual changes his or her name. By statutory declaration, an individual undergoes [00:30:00] gender reassignment. However, Mr Speaker, may I share that the bill does not create a precedent for other individuals seeking to change their registered birth record. The bill applies only to Robin Sullivan because of her situation, which has itself arisen from a unique combination of circumstances, including her birth [00:30:30] overseas following procedure which meant her parents was not registered in New Zealand. The key consideration is that 19th August 2013, married, married same sex couples can adopt jointly. If the Marriage Amendment Act had been in place before Diane Sullivan died, the train of events given rise to the bill [00:31:00] could have been avoided. Mr. Speaker, the bill does not change the adoption order itself. Because do so. To do so could set a precedent for other situations where a deceased individual has not indicated an intention to adopt. Before I conclude, Mr. Speaker, once again, I would like to congratulate Robyn Sullivan for her courage and [00:31:30] for her commitment to both the parents to get their name on her birth certificate so that she can live with the pride that she has acknowledged her parents. In due course. With these words, I commend this bill to the house. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I call the Honourable Member Kevin Hague way. Mr Hague. Uh, Mr Speaker, it's a [00:32:00] genuine pleasure to take a call in this debate. Uh, earlier this year, I had the the the great privilege of being able to participate in the Government Administration Committee's consideration of the marriage equality bill. Uh, and, uh, it was fantastic to work with a group of people who were committed to getting great outcomes. And today again, to participate in a debate. That character that is characterised [00:32:30] by warm and generous and kind speeches from members of that committee is is, uh, a great experience. Um, I want to thank the members of the committee, uh, in particular Ruth Dyson as the chair of that committee and officials who worked, uh, with the with the committee I. I hear that they did a fantastic job. I didn't get the chance to experience their work this time around, [00:33:00] and in particular to say thanks. And congratulations to my colleague and friend Louisa Wall. Um, that's twice over. Over a pretty short space of time that important human rights bills have come to this house. Uh, under Lewis's name. I'm one of several members of this house, uh, who is in a same sex relationship with Children. Uh, and I'm sure that for [00:33:30] those of us in that situation, we can all think about how it would be for us in our situation. Um, if we were plunged into this nightmare scenario, uh, that Rowan Sullivan and her parents have been through. You know, Mr Speaker, human rights is an area that is frequently debated in this house, and typically when we talk about human rights, [00:34:00] we talk about the rights of collectives, of large groups of people, the denial of human rights, um, to a whole ethnicity, to a whole gender, to a whole sexual orientation. Uh, and that, I think, is probably the most frequent use of of the the the idea of human rights in this house. But really, that relates to just just one of those human rights, and that's the right to freedom from discrimination. [00:34:30] But when Eleanor Roosevelt, who was one of perhaps the motivating force behind the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, explained the idea of universal human rights, this is what she said, she said, where, after all, the universal human rights begin in small places, close to home in places so small and so close that they cannot be seen on any map of [00:35:00] the world. Yet they are the world of the individual person. The neighbourhood he lives in the school or college. He attends the factory, farm or office where he works. These are the places where every man, woman and child seeks equal justice, equal dignity and equal opportunity without discrimination, Mr speaker. This bill [00:35:30] is about human rights. It's about the human rights of one person right of that person to acknowledge their own identity, to have their parents respected by law as being their parents. I haven't dealt with very many private bills in this house, but I cannot think of another situation where a private [00:36:00] bill is more appropriate. Congratulations to Louisa Ward to the Government Administration Select Committee. Congratulations to Ryan Sullivan and to Doreen and also to Diane. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I recognise the Honourable Member Moana. Mr. Speaker, Um, thank you very much. I'm very happy to to [00:36:30] take a call on the second reading of the Sullivan birth certificate, Bill, um, to congratulate my colleague LOSA Wall and friend Louis Wall once again, uh, for being a champion for some, some very important issues in this house and around the country. And, of course, to the Sullivan. Um, for having the courage to go out there and I. I don't underestimate how difficult that much it must be to have a bill with your your family's name on it. Um, going through parliament being spoken [00:37:00] about, um, like, uh, Mr Hague, I was on the Select Committee for the Marriage Equality Process, but but not for this process. But what really struck me, uh, about the marriage equality process is, was when you sat down and looked into the faces of the people submitting. You know, you realise that that they were sitting in front of a bunch of strangers being forced to talk about the most personal aspects of their lives, Uh, in order to see progress in human rights legislation? Uh, not many of us who are just afforded these rights at birth. [00:37:30] We we don't earn them. There's nothing particularly special about us. When we heterosexual. We just kind of get all these rights handed to us by by the fact that we're born straight. Um, we've never had to do that. We don't have to sit in front of a bunch of strangers and argue why we should be treated exactly the same as everyone else. Why? Our family is just as valuable as everyone else's families. And when you go through a process of of seeing, looking into the faces of the very real people affected by this legislation, um, you really appreciate the courage, uh, and [00:38:00] and the commitment. And so I imagine to do that when it's only your family, um, must be even more difficult, but it is just as important. Um, just as important. So I really want to acknowledge the family who we are, uh, assisting tonight to address, uh, a a great injustice. Um, And when I mean, I was also on the select committee that considered civil union legislation and and the the change in [00:38:30] the tenor of the debate between civil unions and marriage equality was was huge. Uh, and in a very positive way, Uh, the civil union debate was very, very bruising. Very, very brutal. Very, very negative. Uh, marriage equality wasn't a walk in the park either, but but by comparison, um, things had changed significantly. And there was a lot more respect at the select committee in the marriage equality process than we saw in the civil union process. Um, but when we went through civil unions, you know, a lot a lot of civil unions was about [00:39:00] giving same sex couples the rights of of, uh, or same sex and de facto couples the rights of married couples without going, um, the full way to marriage But the stories that we heard were were, uh, just truly horrific. Uh, particularly in the case of the death or incapacitation of one, family member where the family member, uh, where that family member was, um uh, and And where That [00:39:30] family member then was a biological parent of the child involved and where there had been a falling out with the extended family, just the complete lack of power of of the partner in that relationship to have any rights at all. Um so we had situations where we had where we had couples who had been together for decades and decades, just loving supportive relationships. One of them ends up in hospital. The family didn't approve of the relationship. The family swoops and takes over, goes against the wishes of the couple of the individual [00:40:00] that that's in hospital, that's sick. And and the partner had no rights, absolutely no rights at all. No rights and and funeral arrangements not even able to see, uh, the person that they've been in a loving, committed relationship with for decades, purely because the state refused to even recognise, uh in the slightest way, uh, that their relationship had any kind of legal standing. Um, so a lot of that was addressed during the Civil Union debate, but the one crucial part that didn't get addressed [00:40:30] by civil unions and remains an issue today is adoption. Uh, and we acknowledge during that debate, uh, that the status of, uh, of of Children within, uh, both both heterosexual de facto, uh, sorry. Heterosexual civil union and and same sex civil union couples remains a very grey area under law and one that does need to be resolved. Uh, because at any time we can wind up with a situation like this where suddenly you realise that that where rights [00:41:00] had been expected and I expect that a lot of heterosexual civil union civilly united couples believe they have those rights. But in fact, it is an area of law that remains, um, that remains very grey. Uh, my colleague Jacinda Ardern has has a AAA. Bill to try and address that it is an area that we do need to address because when you're talking about the relationship between parents and Children, you're talking about something extremely personal. And it is something that this parliament, um should prioritise uh, one of the things [00:41:30] II. I think this this really does highlight is that your relationship with your parents doesn't end when you turn 18. So guardianship, which was offered by the care of Children Act and that guardianship is a very different thing from being a parent. You can say that someone has legal responsibility for someone until they turn 18. But if anything, I think our relationship with our parents gets better beyond the age of 18. It stops being a kind of You do this, do that. You know, Mother Child, [00:42:00] uh, kind of relationship, Father, child. And it becomes a friendship, and it becomes a very, very fulfilling relationship. And so I entirely understand why it it is incredibly important to have that relationship with your parents a relationship that only gets better. The older you get legally recognised under the law and why it's not enough to say, Well, they're all adults and and and you should just get on with it. No, this is the II. I would be just gutted if the legal relationship I had with my parents was in any way compromised. [00:42:30] Um, by an action, um, of the state and the final two points. I just want to make Mr Speaker, I think I, I would hope that this bill would have the support of everyone in the house because I think given the amount of time we spend in here, um, and how many times we spend as MP S in the community dealing with the horrific fallout from parents who don't want to be involved in their kids' lives. The amount of time we talk spend talking about parents who don't fulfil their legal responsibilities [00:43:00] who don't, um, behave in a way that's that's conducive to a healthy relationship. Uh, and a healthy child, it would seem to me to be utterly hypocritical and repugnant to not support a parent who says, I want to legally be there for my child, for this parliament to actually stand in the way and say, Well, we're not going to allow that, Um, I think where we have parents who want to be involved in their parents live and their Children's lives, who want to take that legal responsibility and who want the state to recognise [00:43:30] that we should be doing everything to get the state out of the way and say absolutely. We wish there were more of you. And we wish that every family had the strength and the love and the commitment that this family has for each other. Obviously, to go through this process, our country would be a much better place, a less violent place. Um, a much healthier place if the kind of commitment and morals and family values that we're seeing in this particular family were reflected right across our society. Finally, I just want to end on saying, [00:44:00] um to make the point that this bill does highlight a very real fact. Uh, that until we get full equality under the law for same sex couples, there will always be loopholes. There will always be families that fall through the cracks. And there will always be sad cases like this where, uh, through no intended malice, the law does something very, very cruel. And does something, uh uh, uh, very, very destructive in a family's life. And that's why full equality for same sex couples must be the goal of this parliament. [00:44:30] Uh, if we truly want to see every family supported every family recognised to support loving good families, then that will only happen when we get full equality for same sex couples. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I call the Honourable Member Doctor Paul Hutchison. Thank you. Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity and privilege to speak on the Sullivan birth certificate bill, which I understand [00:45:00] has been, uh, will will be amended by the select committee to the Sullivan birth registration bill. And may I, from the outset just acknowledge Rowan Sutherland and her enormous determination and commitment to, uh, ensure that this almost impossible task has actually, [00:45:30] uh, become a reality or is becoming a reality. Um, it was a great pleasure for me tonight to meet her adopted mum. Doreen Shields. Uh, I had not met her before, and it was clear. Uh, I just happened to be in the parliamentary cafeteria, and, uh, it was clear from the outset what a warm and lovely person she is and [00:46:00] how wonderful it is for Rowan to have, uh, um an adoptive mum, uh, of her, uh, lovely character. And of course, um, I want to acknowledge her biological mother and the sponsor of this bill, the S A wars. Because there is no doubt that as I think, Kevin Hague pointed out, Here's someone that has [00:46:30] brought two really important, uh, human rights issues to the Parliament in a very short space of time. And, uh, it's a great, uh, contribution. Uh, it, uh, might I acknowledge the, uh, select committee that dealt with the bill because listening to them, they all have been deeply moved by this situation. And, uh, it's been hugely, [00:47:00] uh, interesting and moving to hear their contributions. Um, I guess in many respects, the bill is driven by a young woman's desire, in fact, overwhelming desire to have her mother's biological name appear on her birth certificate, something that most of us all of us would just absolutely take for granted. [00:47:30] And, um, I guess that I think II I heard in the first reading of the bill that her own words were. I want my mom's name on my birth certificate to honour her. And indeed, that's a sentiment that any child would want for their parents. I do recall, in the first reading of this bill a remarkable coincidence [00:48:00] in, uh, hearing a, uh, documentary about a young Indian, uh, man who was about the same age about 19 or 20 he had been born in provincial India, uh, in a very poor circumstances and had gone down with his brother to the local railway station to sell beads or something similar to gather rice, uh, to to to pay for rice to feed the [00:48:30] family. And somehow he had been separated from his brother in a panic. He hopped on the train, which took him 3000 miles away, and eventually he wound up in South Australia, adopted by again some very loving people. But he had recurring recurring nightmares that he wanted to see his birth. He happened to be a very bright individual who was talented in [00:49:00] mathematics and in, uh, in in, uh, the new technologies and particularly GPS. And over three years, he used to wait, wait up till two or 3 a. m. in the morning, figuring out the possibilities of where his parents, biological parents came from in India and to cut the long story short. After three years, he reckoned he had cracked it. He went back to India [00:49:30] and methodically went to the most likely places to where he had been born. And eventually he found his parents, which brought absolutely profound joy both to himself and his family and to his adopted family. But the point of making this analogy is the drive that all individuals have [00:50:00] to know about their parents and to have that transparency and ability to find them and not put hurdles in their way. So the bill's purpose undoubtedly would require the registrar general of births, deaths and marriages to record the details of Rowan Sullivan's deceased mother, whose name is Diane Sullivan on her post adoptive birth [00:50:30] registration entry. And Mr Speaker, I, um, note that the Government administration Committee, uh, organised a variety of amendments. Uh, for this bill, which were, uh, the one I had mentioned earlier was that the title, uh, correctly, is change to the Sullivan birth registration bill because it could have been misleading, Uh, as its passage [00:51:00] would not directly affect change to Rowan Sullivan's birth certificate. There are a couple of other amendments, including The committee recommends the insertion of News Clause four, which would make it clear that Diane Sullivan and Dorian Margaret Shields are, for all purposes, the parents of Rowan Sullivan. Mr Speaker, I think it is worthwhile to just make mention of the enormous [00:51:30] transition that we have been through over the last few decades in this area of both human rights and in the area of, uh, of assisted human reproduction and the huge debates that have now led us to, uh, believe what 30 years ago was regarded [00:52:00] as impossible to now be normalised. And I was at the 50th anniversary of the National Women's Hospital Uh um, founding last Friday. And a fellow by the name of Doctor Freddie Graham, famous for introducing IVF into New Zealand, went through the changes in birth technology in New Zealand over the last 20 to 30 years. And he explained how [00:52:30] Professor Dennis Bonham used to secretly organise sperm donation in the 19 sixties. And the reason for that was the hospital board wouldn't let it happen. And he had his own private practise, and they literally used to mix up the sperm so they couldn't identify the, uh um uh, who the parents were because of the legal ramifications that might occur in terms of claiming, uh, the, [00:53:00] uh uh through through, uh, the legal process. However, a young social worker by the name of Joy Ellis persuaded the academic department that it was wrong not to be transparent and over a period of time, others joined her, including Professor uh, Ken Daniels. And today in New Zealand, we are leading the world in having one of the most transparent systems [00:53:30] in assuring that Children can identify their biological parents. So I think it's very good timing that this bill is reached the parliament in New Zealand and we are making it possible for someone such as Rome who is so clearly driven to do what is right and to have the appropriate framework [00:54:00] in New Zealand to enable her to do so. So, Mr Speaker, I acknowledge all those that have brought this about and indeed celebrate, uh, the fact that I've been able to speak in the second reading I call the Honourable Member Dennis a rock. Thank you, Mr Speaker. New Zealand first originally had reservations about this bill. We were [00:54:30] wary about a bill for the benefit of one individual rather than for the community as a whole. But since then we have looked at the bill in much more detail and I've had the benefit of discussions with Louisa Wall, who is very persuasive. But also they were very productive and worthwhile discussions, and I thank her for them. We are now satisfied that the bill is necessary, that it is indeed [00:55:00] the only solution to ensuring that the birth certificate concerned will properly and realistically show the names of Rowan Sullivan's late birth mother as well as her adoptive mother. And that, of course, is a very natural thing for anybody to want. Everybody can relate to that. Indeed, it's extraordinary that it that it would be possible not to record the birth mother [00:55:30] on a birth certificate, not much of a birth certificate when you think about it. If that was the case, um, so this is a unique solution to a unique set of circumstances, and we now in New Zealand first recognise it. As such. The desired solution would not be achievable without legislation. And I observed that if Rowan had been born today, her parents could marry and both of them would be [00:56:00] recorded on her birth certificate, which cannot occur, of course, because Diane died in 2010. However, that consideration alone justifies this bill. I think we in New Zealand first also approve the change of name of the bill to the Sullivan birth registration bill, because in fact, that's what this is really about. And we also approve the news Clause four, which will provide [00:56:30] that Diane Sullivan and Doreen Margaret Shields are, for all purposes, the appearance of Rowan Sullivan. And the proposed clause reinstates the legal, uh, position for all purposes, including, of course, the law of succession and parental relationship, and that that's really, uh, a very important consideration. I'm very glad to see that the government administration committee has, um, made [00:57:00] that amendment very worthwhile for all of those, uh, reasons. Uh, Mr Speaker New Zealand first will now be pleased to vote in favour of the bill. And like other speakers, I congratulate all concerned in bringing it to the House Speaker. I recognise the Honourable Member Melissa Leo. Mr. Speaker, On that note, I'd like to start [00:57:30] by wishing everyone a happy New Year, considering the Lunar New Year just actually happened. And we have all been around parts of the country, different parts of the country celebrating the Lunar New Year, the year of the horse. Let me greet you in my mother tongue. It translates to May your New Year bring you lots and lots of luck. And, uh, according to I, I just thought I'll start and actually [00:58:00] have a look at the year of the horse. The wood horse, according to the Chinese horoscope, is a time of fast victories, unexpected adventure and surprising romance. So if there are any single people in this house, I wish you good romance this year. And, uh, according to the Korean astrological chart, this is the year of the Blue Horse. [00:58:30] May it be significant in this election year. Let me, um, start by, um, acknowledging all of the speakers who has, uh, who have spoken on this bill. It is, of course, my pleasure to rise in support of the Sullivan birth certificate Bill. And, uh, I remember speaking on the first reading and actually mentioning my little cultural experience where in certain countries where people are born in a particular town or [00:59:00] at a time and because they are worried that, uh, the Children might not actually survive a certain period of time, they don't actually register the Children, and they actually register them later, and often they end up with the wrong birth date. This is quite different um, I was thinking, How do I? Actually, I haven't actually been to the select committee. I wasn't part of the select committee, but I commend the members who have actually worked on this bill and hearing them speaking so passionately about this bill. I actually commend [00:59:30] the work that you have done because I think it's incredible to hear everyone talking about and acknowledging Rowan Sullivan and her parents because they've obviously done a fantastic job in raising an amazing young woman who wants to honour her mother. And as a parent of a teenage child, I would only hope that one day when he grows up that he might want to honour me. I hope he is actually listening to the debate today. Um, I was looking at the issue of identity. [01:00:00] Um uh, how a person conceives their identity and how do they express their identity? Often, their identity comes from their parents. Uh, they are the very first people who imprint the personality on their Children. They identify with their parents, and their own identity is formed as a result of the education that they receive from the parents. [01:00:30] As the first educators and I also want to talk about things like national identity because it is where you come from. It's the cultural identity. It's like I'm a Korean last night. I mean, yesterday we had the speaker from the Korean Parliament visit New Zealand's parliament. I was so very proud to have actually met him here and actually had lunch with him as the chair of the Korea New Zealand Parliamentary Friendship Group. Because that is my cultural identity. That's where my first impressions of my [01:01:00] own personality and identity was formed from being born in Korea through my parents. I am who I am today because of all of the influences that I've actually had. And I think Rowan's had a fantastic um um uh, parents, uh, both Diane and Dorian Shields, Diane Sullivan and Dorian Shields. And she wants to honour her mother. And as previous speakers have actually said, um, this bill requires the registrar general [01:01:30] of births and marriages to record detail of Rowan Sullivan's deceased mother on her post adoptive birth registration entry. And I was thinking, How would it feel to not have my parents name on my own birth certificate? I mean, I wouldn't even know how to feel about that because we all take it for granted. I know Mr Hague talked about having Children in in his relationship and how in the past, you know, um um, Couples [01:02:00] who are of same sex when they adopt it was only the one person who could actually adopt rather than both parents who can actually adopt. And so when you look at it that way and translating it into my own circumstances and and my own life, you would sort of think, How would I feel if I did not have my parents, both my parents name on the birth certificate and that would really upset me very much because I am who I am as a result of both my parents, my father and my mother. [01:02:30] And for Rowan, it is both Diane and Doreen who have made her who she is. Mr. Speaker, um, Roman's parents from birth were Diane Sullivan and her, uh, her birth mother, um, and, um, Diane Sullivan's partner, Doreen Shields. And, um, Diane Sullivan's name was on her birth certificate, but Diane died in 2010, when Roan was just 17, and that's only two [01:03:00] years older than my son, who is now 15, and knowing my son and how young he is at 15. I mean, how devastating would it have been for Roan to have lost her mother? And to find out subsequently that when, um when Doreen applied for an adoption order following the death of Diane Sullivan, the order required Diane's name to be then removed from Roan's birth certificate and for them to consider that? And how would [01:03:30] they have actually felt no one in this in this house could possibly understand what that might have felt? Like only Rowan knows only her. Her mother, her, um, her adoptive mother knows what that was like. That would have been terrible. Devastating, uh, heart wrenching experience. Because you would want to remember your mother. Um, had Diane and Dorian been able to marry as previous speakers have actually said, they would, of course, have been able to jointly [01:04:00] apply for the for the, um um for their names to be appearing on the birth certificate. And for someone who have actually gone through the process with some friends who have actually had, uh, help, uh, with human reproductive assisted reproduction, where a couple who could not actually have four, have Children for more than 15 years, went and actually had some assistance in my culture, even adoption is actually, uh, frowned upon. [01:04:30] And I remember my friend going through the whole pregnancy of, um, you know, um uh, of her surrogate, This actually happened outside of New Zealand, but her surrogate, uh, the mother was going through the pregnancy, and then the adopted mother, the mother actually pretend that she was pregnant, right throughout the whole pregnancy. I remember her having to stuff her tummy with things to make her look like she was pregnant because she didn't want the stigma [01:05:00] attached to her daughter when she finally came home as her daughter. So in that culture, So So that heart wrenching experience that she went through was something that made me sort of understand the kind of agony that Roan and, um uh, Doreen would have actually gone. Gone through, sir? Um, following the, uh, Marriage amendment Act of 2013. Same sex couples are now able to marry and can apply [01:05:30] to jointly adopt Children. And so what this bill is actually doing is making a matter of fact um uh, the fact that Diane Sullivan and Doreen Shields are, in fact, both Roan's parents just a matter of law, just a record and make it permanent that from now on that when Roy applies for a future, uh, birth certificate, both her parents will be on that piece of paper. And for me, [01:06:00] that piece of paper is very significant, because that is one way Rowan identifies herself. It's a certificate basically confirming what she has known all her life. That it was. In fact, both her parents, not just one, not the other to both of them were, in fact, her parents who brought her up so well, uh, to be proud of who she is, and honouring her mother, who has very sadly [01:06:30] passed away. I wish you best of luck. And I'd like to congratulate my colleague and friend Louisa Wall for, uh, bringing this bill to the house and managing the select committee process that all your colleagues would support you, uh, in this bill, sir. It is a great bill. I commend it to the house I call the Honourable Member Poto Williams. Mr. Speaker, [01:07:00] it's a privilege to be able to speak on the second reading of this bill and I want to I want to acknowledge the courage of Doreen Shields and Rowan Sullivan and their determination to ensure that this bill becomes law. I can assure you of my total support and your achievement. To this end, This bill is essentially about love, love and commitment of two women for each other [01:07:30] love for their of of these women for their child and love of that child. For both of her parents, this bill speaks to the diverse and modern way our families are structured and the way we should be able to acknowledge those who are the most important in our lives, namely, our parents and our Children. We are a modern society that has in recent years made provision for the diversity of our relationships. [01:08:00] And here I must commend my colleague Louisa Wall on ensuring the equality of rights for all on the subject of marriage and for bringing this bill to the house. So it is a natural progression to look at the needs of families and the Children in these families in the modern New Zealand context to ensure that they are catered for and that their rights as well as their needs are met and they are permitted equality as well. [01:08:30] Mr. Speaker, I want to point out to you that I am too an adoptee. This bill resonates on so many levels for adoptees and for adoptive parents more than I think, even Rowan or and do know. And this is my own personal view of how important this bill is. When you are an adopted child, the state dictates who your parents are. When you are a prospective adoptive parent, [01:09:00] you become involved in a formal process that takes many months, often years, to determine your suitability and fitness for for becoming a parent and to ensure there are no objections, uh, from other parties for forthcoming. That is what I believe is still the process for adoption. The state then permits you to be named as parent on a birth certificate or, more specifically, the mother or father of a child. So the Registrar of births, deaths and marriages previously recorded [01:09:30] mother and father of child, not parent. This is a piece of legis legislation, the current piece of legislation of the bill before us. That does not translate well in this modern context, the requirements meet the needs of a time. But this is no longer the time. I strongly suggest it's time to put it right. We've seen this House pass legislation to afford equal rights to the state of marriage to same sex sex couples, [01:10:00] and I'm really proud that we have. Yet we deny them the dignity and responsibility of shared parentage. This is the predicament we find here when you're born into a family not adopted, born into a family in the traditional sense. You don't need the state to tell you who you are, who you are or who your parents are. You just are, and it just is. I understand the need for legal process to determine your status [01:10:30] in legal terms and your rights, for example, to property or to a state that you are a beneficiary of. But in modern New Zealand, where we have made huge strides in terms of acknowledging equality and marriage, we now need to develop equality in parenthood. I speak as an adoptee whose 90 year old birth father sat in the gallery just a few weeks ago to watch his youngest birth child deliver a maiden address to this house, and it's been [01:11:00] 52 years since my adoption. And I'm extremely grateful for the gift that was given to my adoptive parents as their love and care has made me the person I am today. And I want to just comment on my colleague Moana Mackie, making the point that as you grow older, your circumstances change and your view of life and family relationships change. How powerful it would be that I could now acknowledge my birth father or my certificate as an acknowledgement of the gift that he made to my parents. [01:11:30] It's no longer, um, a adoption. But it's not so long ago that adoption and the circumstances and reasons behind adoption were too shameful to share. And there are many adopted Children unable to trace birth families because it was not proper at the time to record those details and the process of recording and registration of adopted Children and those days removed the record of birth parents. [01:12:00] This is not the case with Rowan Sullivan. However, there is a bigger implication here. I want to point out to many that the birth of um, the birth to same sex couples and the subsequent adoptions sometimes happen with the help of sperm and egg donors surrogates. And it should be possible for those who contribute to the care and the love and the parentage and the parenting be given the privilege of appearing on the certificate [01:12:30] here, I would like to note that I support the amendment of the title of this bill to the Sullivan birth registration bill. Mr. Speaker, this bill supports a young woman whose real-life experience is of being parented by two women, two women who have loved her, cared for her and raised a wonderful young woman. I would like this house to now support the love and commitment it took by Doreen Shields and Diane Sullivan to raise this young woman [01:13:00] by providing them the opportunity to both be recognised equally as the parents of Rowan Sullivan. I commend this bill to the house. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I call the Honourable Member Jamie Lee Ross before I begin. Mr. Speaker, I wish to advise you that, uh, student to standing order 1182. I'll be splitting this call with my colleague from, uh, Mandel. Uh, Simpson JP. Could I have a ballot four minutes, please. Thank you very much for that. For informing [01:13:30] the house. Thank you, colleagues. Uh, Mr Speaker, uh, as I as I was sitting here listening to, uh, the speeches from the house, I was sitting there wondering whether, uh, Doreen and Rowan would be watching this debate tonight and and I assume they probably are. Um I was also wondering to myself whether it would be a a moment that they are proud of or whether it's a moment that they'd be quite relieved by, because I don't think Mr. Speaker, we're talking tonight [01:14:00] really about guardianship status. I don't think we're talking about an adoption order either. I think what we're really talking about is a family. And I picked up on some words in the speech from Porter Williams. It's about love and care, and it's about family. And I think this is what really the the bill is all about. It's about recognising a family situation. Uh, that has existed regardless of what laws say, regardless of what pieces of paper say, um, it's about a family, [01:14:30] and it's about recognising formally the situation, uh, which exists. And I want to congratulate uh, Louisa wall for bringing this bill to the house. So it appears based on the speech from Mr O'Rourke that she's achieved, uh, unanimity, uh, in this house. Wouldn't it have been great if she could have achieved that on her other bill? That would have been a proud day for, uh, New Zealand. But but not to be, Uh, but this bill, she's, uh, equally, uh, done well on. So, Mr Speaker, Congratulations to, uh, Lassa [01:15:00] Wall. Uh, I note also that Porter Williams, if I can draw off your speech again, uh, mentioned that she, uh, was adopted. I wasn't adopted myself. But I'm also someone in this house who wasn't raised in your stock standard, uh, nuclear family of your mother. Father. Siblings, uh, was raised effectively by my grandmother, and we never went through the formal, uh, route of of recognising that, uh, in law, but certainly growing up. Um, I always knew that my grandmother played [01:15:30] the role of mother, father and and everything else. And I think if we think back to it, probably formalising that situation, uh, would have been an ideal thing to have done it surplus to requirements for us now, But I can understand completely why Rowan would want to see, uh, this situation formalised, uh, for herself. And although the the the details around the the bill have been discussed and quite a bit of detail tonight already, I don't want to go over them again. But I just want to say it's a very good thing that this house is doing [01:16:00] for that family. And it is about the family. It's not about the pieces of paper. It's about recognising the family. Mr. Speaker, I was interested a little bit about, um, the mechanisms of private bills because, uh, as someone who I've only been here three years in this house, Mr. Speaker haven't actually seen many private bills come to, uh, the debating chamber. And so I was quite interested in the history of it and whether or not this was the appropriate mechanism, uh, to be used I I found it interesting, I. I pulled out McGee [01:16:30] and had a bit of a read about private bills. Uh, and there's a bit of interesting information here. If you want to find out the the origins of private bills, it really goes back to the time when parliament really passed legislation. Uh, nowadays, parliament passes legislation on a very frequent basis. Uh, but back in the day, when parliament very rarely passed legislation for individuals to seek relief for a particular matter, uh, they had to ask the parliament to pass a piece [01:17:00] of private legislation. Ironically, according to McGee, uh, if one wanted to seek a divorce prior to 18 67 1 had to get a private piece. A private bill passed through the parliament to get a divorce. Uh, parliament would be exceptionally busy these days if that was still the case. Uh, fortunately, it is not, but certainly reading about the history of private bills. Uh, Mr Speaker, I can see that this is very much a situation where a private bill, [01:17:30] uh, is appropriate. Uh, I just want to say, as I come to the conclusion of the few remarks that that I have to make on this bill, uh, I just want to say congratulations again to Louisa Wall to the select committee as well, because they've made some, uh, good amendments to this piece of legislation, and I just want to say again, congratulations to Rowan and Dorene, because I can't imagine that it would be easy to front up to the New Zealand House of Representatives to go through. Uh, what I imagine would have been a lengthy process, uh, to [01:18:00] become a promoter of the bill to get it all going. So congratulations to them and everyone who is voting in favour of this. Even New Zealand first. Congratulations, Mr Speaker. I call the Honourable Member Scott Simpson. Thank you, Mr Speaker. It's a pleasure indeed to stand in support of this bill, which, as my colleague Jamie Lee Ross, has, uh, just mentioned, looks like it will have unanimity across the house, and that in itself, is a rare and wonderful thing. So the, um uh, speeches tonight [01:18:30] I think have been generous, uh, meaningful. And from the heart, I've been, uh, incredibly impressed with the personal stories of individual members, but also actually impressed with this story about which this bill has been brought to the house by its sponsor, Lesa Wall, And I want to congratulate, uh, the member Lewis Wall for bringing yet another, uh, piece of, uh, legislation to the house as a as a, uh, backbench MP myself of a very [01:19:00] short duration of this house. I am in awe of her ability to bring this sort of stuff to the house in a way that is, I think, unifying and useful to us as a parliament and to us as a democracy in New Zealand. So following the Marriage Definition Amendment Act of last year, same sex couples are, of course, able to marry, and therefore they are now able to jointly apply to adopt Children. And so had that been the case for Diane [01:19:30] Sullivan and Doreen Shields, and they had been able to legally married then they were have been able to, of course, adopt Rowan. Now, um, if that had occurred, then this bill would not be required. Uh, so, in a previous life, uh, before coming to this parliament, I had the great privilege and pleasure to be CEO of a Children's charity called Make a Wish. And so I was for about three years, uh, a professional wish granter. And, uh, that, [01:20:00] let me tell you, is a, uh, terrific, uh, thing to be able to do. And in my maiden speech to this house, I, uh, uh, mentioned that one of the challenges I saw for myself in this house was to be able to in some way, uh, bring the, uh, job skills and transfer of knowledge from my role as a professional wish granter into this chamber. And so tonight, I have a small sense of having achieved a little bit of that by being a participant in this debate And indeed, having [01:20:30] been a member of this house as we passed, uh, the second reading of this bill. So I mentioned also, uh, when I was speaking in my maiden speech about being a professional wish grant for make a wish that, uh, one should never underestimate the power of some magic, Uh, the power of a wish and the power of small things, small deeds, small actions to have enormous important impact upon the lives of individuals. And so tonight, I think [01:21:00] we are, as I say, having a small sense of that. So, uh, this is a private member's bill. I'm grateful to my colleague, the member Jamie Lee Ross, for giving us a little bit of history about private members bills, because indeed, the house would be sitting under extended urgency very frequently if the old rules still applied. Um sir, I want to thank members of the Select committee who have considered the bill, uh, chaired by the honourable Ruth Dyson. [01:21:30] I, uh, of course, did not have an opportunity to sit on the bill, but I was particularly taken by speeches earlier on in the debate from members who did participate, uh, in the, uh, uh, consideration of the bill after first reading. And I note with interest that they have made a number of, uh, modest but significant and important changes. The Government administration Committee has made a number of recommendations. Uh, and one of them was [01:22:00] to change the title of the bill. Uh uh, And that seems entirely appropriate, given the circumstances and the unique features of the situation that exists relating to Rowan's situation. So the title of the bill, as introduced the Sullivan birth certificate bill, uh, was likely to be have, uh, have been interpreted as a little bit misleading. And, uh and so the, uh, suggested change is one that I support. And I think that the committee [01:22:30] has yet again, uh, shown its willingness and ability to get its head around. Um uh, difficult issues. Uh, previously, they've to consider issues of very major significance to a great number of people. On this occasion, they have been considering a difficult but problematic issue for just one family and in particular, one individual. And so, living as we do in a small, precious, intimate democracy, [01:23:00] it's a great pleasure to see Parliament working as it should to achieve this piece of legislation. And I commend it thoroughly to the house. Um, Carol Vermont Rise is the last speaker on the Sullivan birth certificate Bill. And, um, he listened very carefully, and it is a really unusual situation we are in, uh, with this private bill, which does benefit a single family. Um, and and it is an unusual situation that we have had such positive [01:23:30] contributions from everybody in the house. And it has This bill has the support of all parties. That's a very good thing. And this does feel like, uh, something where we are making a real significant difference to two people. Um, one of whom is here tonight. Um, I want to acknowledge Lewis Wall in this process. Um, you know, I think most people come to parliament because, um, and it's a rather cliched term, but because they want to make a difference. And Lassa has had the opportunity [01:24:00] and, um, the drive to do two very powerful things quite different in their scale. But two very powerful things of recent times, both with her marriage equality bill and now with the Sullivan birth certificate. Bill. And I want to acknowledge her for doing that for making a difference. Uh, and for being an active MP, um, I want to also acknowledge Rowan Sullivan and Dorian Shields for driving this really for having the heartfelt [01:24:30] desire to make this so because you've done it, you've done it. And a lot of people would not have, um, perhaps gone the distance and and felt so strongly and and decided to really make this happen. And I think that's fantastic. And as um, my colleague across the house has just said also the Select committee, I've listened closely to contributions from people on that select committee, and I got a real sense that, um, that committee worked very well on this bill trying to to work their way [01:25:00] through it. And of course, it was very well chaired by my colleague, the honourable Ruth Dyson. So others have gone through all of the detail. Really? But this bill will now allow Rowan to have both of her parents names recorded on her formal birth certificate. And I think that that is a great achievement. Um, effectively, Uh, when, uh, the guardianship that, um, was taken by, um [01:25:30] by Doreen, uh, actually expired when Rowan turned 18, and it struck me. This this issue of effectively being or feeling legally orphaned, um, must have been a deeply unsettling and upsetting situation. So this isn't just a piece of paper. This is a process to respect and honour a mother who had obviously, um, loved her daughter very much. So, uh, with those few words, [01:26:00] can I just finally again acknowledge the determination of Rowan enduring? Uh, and can I say that as a family, uh, you have achieved something really important. And, um, that is that is great to see here tonight. The question is that the motion be agreed to those of that opinion will say I contrary. No, the eyes have it. Sullivan Birth certificate bill, Second reading. [01:26:30] This bill is set down for committee stage next Sitting day. Call now on members Order of the day. Number one Electronic transactions. Contract formation amendment bill. Second reading.

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TITLE: Parliament: third reading of the Sullivan Birth Certificate Bill
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VOICES: Chris Auchinvole; Denis O'Rourke; Jan Logie; Kanwaljit Singh Bakshi; Kate Wilkinson; Louisa Wall; Melissa Lee; Moana Mackey; Nanaia Mahuta; Nicky Wagner; Paul Hutchison; Poto Williams; Ruth Dyson; Scott Simpson
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Chris Auchinvole; Denis O'Rourke; Diane Sullivan; Doreen Shields; Jan Logie; Kanwaljit Singh Bakshi; Kate Wilkinson; Louisa Wall; Melissa Lee; Moana Mackey; Nanaia Mahuta; Nicky Wagner; Parliament TV; Parliament buildings; Paul Hutchison; Poto Williams; Rowen Sullivan; Ruth Dyson; Scott Simpson; Sullivan Birth Certificate Bill (2013); Wellington; children; family; human rights; lesbian; parents; politics
DATE: 9 April 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the third reading of the Sullivan Birth Certificate Bill. It was introduced into Parliament by Louisa Wall and read for a third and final time on 9 April 2014. The Bill passed its third reading unanimously. The title of the legislation subsequently became the Sullivan Birth Certificate Registration Act 2013.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Call on private and local order of the day. Number two Sullivan Birth registration bill. Third reading. Uh, Mr Speaker, I move that the Sullivan Boo registration bill. Be now. Be now. Read a third time to begin proceedings tonight. I want to thank on behalf of Rowan and Doreen and myself as the sponsoring MP the office of the Clerk and specifically Tim Workman [00:00:30] for the assistance given to ensure we both understood and complied with the requirements of progressing a private bill through this house. What could otherwise have been a daunting and exhausting process was, in fact, a simple and methodical process for the bill to be introduced and then to progress systematically through our House of Parliament. In that progression through this house, I want to again thank my colleague, the Honourable Ruth Dyson as chair and members [00:01:00] of the Government Administration Select Committee for the Professional and Caring Manner in which they conducted the progression of Rowan's bill. This private bill was, by definition, incredibly private to Rowan, Doreen and their family and to know that they have been empowered through the process of sharing their life story is something that this house should celebrate and be proud of. Finally, I thank all members of this 50th parliament. [00:01:30] We have consensus on this bill, which means we have not been required to vote. That, too, is something to acknowledge, celebrate and be thankful for again. On behalf of Rowan, Doreen, their family and friends and myself, I thank my colleagues for their collective support for this bill. Mr. Speaker, this bill exemplifies why we have private bills. It is about addressing the special circumstances of an individual situation [00:02:00] that doesn't come under the general law. And this bill does exactly that. This bill is the select Committee members have recognised allows Rowan Sullivan to have her family formally recorded on the very documents that are used to confirm who she is and to quote the Select committee report to make what is a matter of fact, a matter of law. While this bill is specific to the circumstances of Rowan and her parents, [00:02:30] Diane Sullivan and Doreen Shields, it does highlight how important it is to allow people to identify themselves with reference to their family. We have a number of antiquated laws on our books that reflect society in a bygone era. Our marriage act had been applied as society existed in 1955 and with the 2013 Amendment. It now embraces the reality of relationships in respect of the state's role, [00:03:00] which is to issue licences. And this private bill has highlighted the inability of the 1955 Adoption Act to properly reflect the reality of families. Today. An adoption order that would result in Rowan having her living parents on her birth certificate meant her recently deceased birth mother could not remain as her mother on her formal birth certificate. Her birth documents such a cruel action will be righted by this private bill, [00:03:30] But it emphasises the need to look at the Law Commission's 2000 report and the subsequent proceedings filed in the Human Rights Review Tribunal and for there to be a united approach across this house to address the many situations that do not fit into into the 1955 societal model. We all know someone who has been affected in some way by the, uh, operation of the adoption laws. It is [00:04:00] time now for a comprehensive review that puts the child at the forefront of adoption decisions and recognises the importance of being able to stand firm in the knowledge of who you are and who your family are. I thank my colleagues in the house who have taken the time to understand Rowan, Dianne and Dorian situation and to acknowledge the importance of their family unit being recognised officially in all things that Roan does from [00:04:30] now into the future. I have been very proud to sponsor this bill and proud that this house can take steps that can make a difference to this family and particularly to the memory of Diane that will not just be confined to the efforts of Dorian and Rowan alone, but will always be a formal part of their story. Doreen and Rowan, who are here tonight, have asked me to add their thanks and in Doreen's words, and I quote, [00:05:00] we didn't expect many people to be interested in our story, and we've been profoundly moved by the sympathy and support we've received. When Diane was diagnosed with cancer, they gave her two years at best. She fought and suffered for almost four years because she wanted so desperately to be there for our daughter. Rowan shouldn't have someone who loved her so much erased from her history on behalf of Diane and [00:05:30] her family back in Yorkshire. Thank you for giving Rowan her mum back. After 21 years, she finally has both her parents and the final word. Mr. Speaker must go to Rowan and I quote having my mom's name taken off my birth certificate was hard. It was a horrible thing to do to someone who really wanted to have me and love me so much. This was never really about me. All I ever wanted was to honour [00:06:00] and acknowledge my mom. The question is that the motion be agreed to Chris Ock Speaker Thank you, Mr Speaker. And indeed, uh, in relation to this bill. It's a great pleasure to follow from Louisa uh Walz, who has so championed the bill during its passage through the house. And it's great to be here [00:06:30] now, with the third reading of this bill approaching closure for one Rowan Sullivan's journey through a labour forensic experience of battling through a miasmic maze of legislative procedure for her, for for the for family to be so gracious as to pass on the comments that Louise uh carried [00:07:00] for them as Luisa carried for them is a tremendous tribute to the love they have for, uh, Louis, uh, for Roan's natural mother. They have done it for someone who actually isn't here anymore, but who, uh, would nonetheless take great satisfaction and comfort from knowing that true love has its way. It's not, though, Mr Speaker [00:07:30] an unduly complex legislative situation that Rowan faced because, as Rowan and her family explained to the select committee when we met them and to Louisa, uh, who championed the bill for her within Parliament, the situation that surrounded her family was complex was complex. And I want at this stage, Mr Speaker, just to reflect briefly on our role as parliamentarians [00:08:00] in assisting individual people with complex situations. Because I think when the bill was initially introduced, there was some feeling that it's quite a narrow bill. It has a limited level of interest. It won't affect very many people or worse. Will it set precedent And all those sorts of legislative, uh uh, questions. We ask about things in the normal process of a bill. But III, I think we are here, Mr [00:08:30] Speaker, and this is a good example of assisting someone in a, uh, similar uh uh, II. I guess in a complex situation, not of their own making, because there was no way in the world anybody else could address this particular situation. But I recall a take home comment from a constituent in the West Coast, Mr Speaker, who was having a problem with his immigration status at the time. [00:09:00] This was in 2005, and he was told his situation was complex, which is why he was experiencing delays in response from the immigration services. He appealed to me as an MP with a question, and this is the take home message that I got from it. His question was, do government departments in New Zealand [00:09:30] only do simple things? And I guess when we heard that this was a complex situation, I remembered that, and I thought, Well, here's a good opportunity, uh, to get involved in something that isn't just simple. And that was in 2005, and there have been considerable advances in immigration services, uh, since then and indeed every other branch of the public service, as I'm sure Mr Twyford would agree, [00:10:00] you know, in in quite recently, uh, I understand an award was given to AC C, uh, to the office there, following a survey of client satisfaction that showed an overwhelming positive response. And that's a good thing, uh, to hear about and a good thing to happen. Similarly, Mr Speaker, with this particular bill, I think there has been a very good response and a good result. And it's been a pleasure to be part of the committee, uh, under [00:10:30] the chairmanship of Honourable Ruth Dyson, uh, to reach this point. So let's get back to Roan's complex situation for members who haven't been directly involved and the circumstances that the Government Administration Select Committee set itself to resolve along with the government departments involved. And I'll just go through if I may, some key background points for members so that they can understand the seeming complexity [00:11:00] Rowan Sullivan and and my apologies to members of the family have got to hear it. You gay, you're gay. However, Rowan Sullivan's parents from birth were Diane Sullivan, her birth mother, and Diane Sullivan's female partner, Doreen Shields. Diane Sullivan died in 2010, when Roan was 17 years old. Doreen Shields chose not to adopt Rowan, while [00:11:30] Diane Sullivan was still alive, as this would have required the removal of Diane Sullivan. That's the birth mother's name from Rowan Sullivan's birth certificate. Dorian Shields instead applied to be an additional guardian. This expired on Rowan Sullivan's 18th birthday. You can see how the individual bits of legislation cut in at various points without the intention of dispossessing [00:12:00] of their mother. There was no intentional nastiness in this. It was just the way it played out. Dorian Shields applied for an adoption order following the death of Diane Sullivan. The order was made on the 15th of January 2013, 15th January 2013. However, the order required that Diane Sullivan's name be removed from the Rowan Sullivan's birth certificate. This must have been [00:12:30] a a huge wrench when that occurred. Had Diane Sullivan and Dorian Shields been able to legally marry, they would have been able to jointly apply to adopt Rowan. If this had occurred, they would both have been named as her parents on her birth record following Mr Speaker, the Marriage Definition of Marriage Amendment Act 2013, which by coincidence was passed through the same select committee same [00:13:00] sex couples are able to marry and therefore to apply jointly to adopt Children. This in fact, uh, in fact, Mr Speaker, what happened was that Rowan was caught between two legislatures no birth registration in New Zealand and changes in adoption laws as they apply to same gender couples. The select [00:13:30] Committee. Mr. Speaker resolved to make some changes to the original bill following considerations and representations from the Department of Internal Affairs. And it would be quite remiss, uh, of any member of the committee. Um, if we didn't follow Louisa's comments and comment on the depth of information that officials have provided throughout the spell as it proceeded through the house. Uh uh, sorry. As it proceeded through the Select [00:14:00] Committee, there have been really good levels of discussion and really good interesting points. And let's if we make just consider some of these. The Select committee recommendations have altered Mr Speaker or proposed that the bill be passed or the following amendments that the committee recommend that the title of the bill be changed to the Sullivan Birth registration bill. And that's because the title of the bill is introduced. Here we go, the Sullivan birth certificate bill could be misleading [00:14:30] as its passage could not directly affect change to Rowan Sullivan's birth certificate. And so we had this really intriguing debates. Mr Speaker, where? What is a birth certificate? It's simply a reflection of a birth registration. If you just change a birth certificate, that doesn't change a registration. If you lose that birth certificate, you apply for a copy. You go back to where you were before, and it was really quite intriguing. And there were other changes that we had to bring in, uh, to just bring everything [00:15:00] to the situation that we're now at, which is being able as members on both sides of the house. And I would imagine from all parties of the house we are able to say, and I'd like to say it from the point of view of the Select committee job well done. And it's a delight to hear that the family are well pleased with the result because, uh, as I say they that they have introduced the fact that it's not really Rowan, who's delighted. It's someone who's passed [00:15:30] on that it's been done for and I think that's great that we've been able to assist in such measure. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Uh uh. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. And I'm not gonna take too long in this call because I think the issues have been well traversed throughout the various stages. Um, I want to recognise Rowan and Diane and Dorene for the personal journey that they've been on. I can't imagine it's much fun having, um, such a personal matter discussed, uh, by parliament. But it does highlight a very important point, [00:16:00] which is that until we get full equality under the law for gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender and intersex people, then we are going to find these loopholes, uh, in many parts of legislation. So this was a very important step along the way for Parliament's understanding of how what might not seem like a very big issue can actually have huge impacts on on families. And so I really don't underestimate how difficult this must have been to have had such a personal matter discussed in public. But thank you very much for bringing this piece of legislation [00:16:30] to the house and thank you to my colleague loss wall for once again, uh, being a champion for this community, Uh, and raising further issues. So, uh, that's all I really want to say. I'm very excited to see this Bill pass into law. So I'm going to sit down now, Seng Bak. She Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to speak during the third reading of Sullivan Perth certificate Bill during the second reading. Mr. Speaker, I acknowledge Robin Sullivan for her proactiveness [00:17:00] towards the bill. I would like to repeat what I said at that time. This bill shows the respect that Robin Sullivan has got for her parents to set the context. Mr. Speaker, the purpose of the bill is to require the registrar general of birth, death and marriages to record the details of Robin Sullivan's deceased mother on her post adoptive birth [00:17:30] registry entry. Mr. Speaker, before I go any further, I would like to acknowledge Louis of all for sponsoring this bill. This is a second bill which Government Administration Committee has gone through, which has been under the name of Louisa Wall, and you have championed something which no one has done before. So I congratulate for your work and acknowledge all the [00:18:00] hard work you did during this process. of this bill. I would also like to echo what my colleague Chris Awal just mentioned to acknowledge the the officials who supported us during this process because there were many technical things which we were not aware of. And we initially thought it might take a few days to sort out this bill. But because of few technical things which were pointed [00:18:30] out by the officials, it took us a long time. And at last I think we have done justice to this bill and Rogan will be pleased with the result. I acknowledge you once again for all the effort it may well be. People consider that something of a technical detail. And indeed, when we saw the bill before us in the Government Administration Committee, we thought that it did have a very technical [00:19:00] aspect to it. The reality, though, that also had a very, very personal aspect. This is one of those occasions when the only situation available to the applicant was through Parliament. The bill, Mr Speaker, may appear simplistically. However, I can tell you that as a member of the Select Committee that discussed and debated this bill once we [00:19:30] started the progress through the legislation. There were a number of tricky technical issues which we had to think about. Mr. Speaker, Some time back, the house passed the Marriage definition of Marriage Amendment Act. It is the legislation of marriage. Definition of it is the amendment for the marriage definition that was now led to Sullivan birth certificate bill being [00:20:00] presented before this house. Mr. Speaker, before I move further to the further details of this legislation, I would like to take this opportunity to clarify a very important point. Sir, at the time that this house was discussing the Marriage Amendment Act and there was perception being created that I am opposed to the LGBT community. Sir, may I share [00:20:30] with all of you today that I have no objection or I am not at all against anyone who is from the LGBT community. I consider all of us being equal part of New Zealand society. My religion teaches us and I will quote man, which means every human being is equal. I [00:21:00] was, however, against the changing of definition of marriage. Marriage for me was between men and women. However, New Zealand has passed the law that allows LGBT to marry sir, I am a law abiding citizen with no personal or hidden agenda against the LGBT community. Therefore, I respect and will continue [00:21:30] to respect the law that provides LGBT to marry the person of their choice. That was a big burden on my chest, and I felt it was important for me to share it with my parliamentary colleagues. And with the New Zealanders coming back to the Sullivan birth certificate, Bill had there legislation at the time when Diane Sullivan and Doreen Shields wanted [00:22:00] to marry each other. This would have also allowed them to adopt Rob Robin and record their respective names on Robin's parents as Robin's parents. Once again, this is to me a person is an excellent example of how one should bring up their Children. It was because Robyn was taught the basic [00:22:30] of respect that Robyn decided that she would go all the way to ensure that the name of both the parents are recorded in her birth certificate. To me, Mr Speaker, this is investment of time and effort, from Roy speaks volume for her family culture. The legislation, Mr Speaker, is once again a reminder that government has capacity to impact [00:23:00] lives of individuals positively and that, too, at a very personal level. At the start of my speech, Mr Speaker, I mentioned that the legislation appears to be very simple, a thick one, probably a minor bureaucratic issue, and in in some ways, that's exactly what it is. Minor bureaucratic issue. However, the positive emotional [00:23:30] impact that this will have on Roy and others in similar situations may not be defined in words, Mr Speaker. I am sure all of us will agree that every child should have opportunity to honour their birth parents. There is no doubt that one of other things that this particular bill brings up is the fact that Robyn's mother conceived through [00:24:00] art artificial I 30 years ago. This was done anonymously Today. This is done not done anonymously, but by and large, I think that is a very good thing. Openness and transparency are something that is so important to ensure we have ethos going forward with these words. I wholeheartedly support [00:24:30] this bill and wish Robyn good luck for her future. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I call Jan Logie. Thank you, Mr Speaker. And it's with pleasure. I, um, rise to take a short call at the third reading of what will become the Sullivan Birth Registration Act. Um, and I'm taking a short call. Um, not because I see this. I want to deal with this flippantly or don't see this as, um a really [00:25:00] very, very poignant moment for this house and Rowan and her mom, Doreen, and her mother, who I'm sure is watching Diane. Um, but just because, really, I think it's so simple. It is just such a simple and such an obvious thing to fix that, um I think the family I imagine I just wanting it done. And I think the speedier we can be [00:25:30] about that the better. Um, because this is about enabling a family to be able to move forward and fixing a gap in legislation to enable them to do that. And, um, that's something I'm really pleased to be able to be part of. And thank you, Lewis. I remember you sharing. Um, my colleague Louisa Wall sharing this story with me before, um, the third reading of the Marriage Equality Act. And I was very moved at the time, because it is, [00:26:00] you know, just such a huh. Maddening situation that this could even have happened. But that is we're so used to dealing with people falling between the cracks of our legislation on a very large scale and to be able to bring this piece of legislation to the house that deals with one family and makes it just real. And we can see the people and we can see the impact and fix something as a really, really lovely thing. So, um, on [00:26:30] that note, I wish the family well into the future and the three of you together for all legal purposes. From now on, uh, the honourable Mr Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to take a short call also and to join, uh, with previous speakers to support the intention of the bill and the passing, uh, of it into legislation. And I had to reflect on the debates that have come to the house on this bill [00:27:00] and really want to say it is the little things that matter. And I want to applaud Louisa Wall for having, uh, attention to detail, uh, to fix something that can be fixed in a way that will make a difference. Not in the only in the life of Rowan. But I think in the lives of many other Children who may find themselves in the same predicament, and it is worth doing. Mr. Speaker, many contributions have talked about this being a minor, uh, bureau technical [00:27:30] issue. Uh, it certainly does advance, uh, the principle of equality in ways that often this house struggles with and has a great deal of, uh, moral and ethical challenges to actually say if we were purely looking at the principle of equality. This is something that we should and must do and should, uh, continue to build. I think, uh, the the brave nature in which the courageous nature in which uh, many [00:28:00] issues, uh, that Lewis in particular has championed before the house, uh, can be addressed in a in a manner that is fitting of of the and worthy of the cause. I didn't want to take a long call because, uh, upon request, uh, it's important to make sure that we, uh, pass this bill quickly tonight and and that we all see fit to be able to do that in the spirit with which this bill has been brought not only to the house in the first reading, but, uh, before [00:28:30] the select committee and back to the house. And with that Lassa Rowan, Dorene Diane, Thank you for making the little things matter and reminding us all we can do simple things to make things worthwhile. I call Nicky Wagner. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I, too, would like to support the Sullivan birth registration bill at its third reading. Um, as we've heard, it's a private bill supported by Labour MP Louisa [00:29:00] Wall, and it is linked to her marriage definition of Marriage Amendment Act 2013. Because before the passing of that bill, same sex couples are able to marry and therefore will be able to apply jointly for adopted Children. And if Rowan Sullivan's birth mother had been able to marry her long term partner, Doreen Shields, the situation would never have arisen. Now, the purpose of the bill, as we've been discussing uh, will [00:29:30] require the Register General of birth deaths and marriages in New Zealand to record the details of Rowan Sullivan's deceased mother on her post adoptive birth registration entry. Now, the background to this bill is important because it sheds light on the rules that made the documentation of one's life and relationships difficult for a same sex partnership before our legislative changes. [00:30:00] So the background was that Rowan Helen Louise Sullivan was born on the 23rd of February 1993 in England to a same sex couple, Diane Sullivan, a British citizen, and New Zealander Doreen Margaret Shields. Only Diane Sullivan's name, the birth parent, was recorded on Rowan Sullivan's birth certificate. In November 1999. [00:30:30] The family moved to New Zealand, and Rowan and Diane Sullivan became permanent residents on family grounds. At that time, the law did not allow Diane and Doreen to marry or to jointly adopt Rowan. Diane Sullivan died in 2010, and Roan was formally adopted by Doreen in January 2013. [00:31:00] However, this required the removal of Diane Sullivan's name from Rowan's post adoption birth record something, of course, that Roanna did not want to do. Therefore, the purpose of this bill is to add Diane Sullivan's details to the record so that both Diane Sullivan and Doreen Shield's name can be included [00:31:30] on Rowan Sullivan's New Zealand post adoption birth certificate that both Rowan's parents can be acknowledged I'm very pleased that Parliament was able to deal with this issue and I note, um that Chris was talking about it being a complex issue. But I'm very I'm very pleased that it could deal with it because I understand completely Rowan would want to have both her parents [00:32:00] listed on her birth certificate. The bill does not create a precedent for other individuals seeking to change their registered birth record because since 2005, New Zealand law has allowed both same sex parents of New Zealand born Children conceived through assisted human reproductive technology, a a HR procedure to be named on a child's birth record. And that change was [00:32:30] retrospective so that pre 2005 New Zealand birth registration records can be amended on application at any time to include both same sex parents details Further, the law already contains rules for changing a birth record in other circumstances, including but not limited to situations where a paternity order is obtained. An individual changes [00:33:00] her or his name by statutory declaration and an individual undergoes gender reassignment. So this bill applies only to Rowan Sullivan's unique situation, which has itself arisen from a unique combination of circumstances, including her birth overseas, following an a HR procedure which meant that her birth was not registered in New Zealand. [00:33:30] The key consideration is that since the 19th of August 2013 married same sex couples can adopt jointly. If the marriage Definition of Marriage Amendment Act had been in place before Diane Sullivan died, the train of events giving rise to this bill could have been avoided. So in summary, this is a good bill and it's very pleasing that it will be passed [00:34:00] unanimously in this house. And I think it illustrates two things. Firstly, the importance that parliament puts places on families and also the empathy that parliamentarians have had for Rowan's situation. We all believe in happy families and we want to see that reflected in our documentation. I commend this bill to the house. I call Dennis O'Rourke Mr Speaker [00:34:30] the Magna Carta of 12 15 states quote to no one. Will we sell to no one? Will we deny or delay right or justice? Unquote, I think those beautiful and striking words are the words we should keep in mind when we look at situations such as this because, right, And just to interrupt the honourable Member, the time has come for me to leave the chair for the dinner break. This debate is interrupted. [00:35:00] I shall resume the chair at 7. 30. Sorry, the house has resumed members. Uh, the house is considering the third reading of the Sullivan birth registration bill. Uh, Dennis O'Rourke has the call. He's about 9. 5 minutes remaining. Should he wish to take that opportunity? Denis O'Rourke, Mr. Speaker at the break, [00:35:30] I had referred to some of the fine words of the Magna Carta. And, uh, that guarantee of individual rights and of justice is, of course, the foundation of our legal system. New Zealand first will continue to support this bill because it is just and right to do so. We are satisfied that it is necessary and that it is indeed the only solution to ensuring that the birth certificate concerned will properly [00:36:00] and realistically show the names of Rowan Sullivan's late birth mother, Diane Sullivan, as well as her adoptive mother. It's a very natural thing for anybody to want, and everybody can relate to it. It's difficult to see, in fact, how anyone could rationally object to it once. Of course, the reasons for it are known, and others in this debate have well enough explained those reasons, and it [00:36:30] is not necessary for me to do so again. It's actually extraordinary that it would be possible in our legal system not to record the birth mother on a birth certificate. Absolutely extraordinary. So this is a unique solution to a unique set of circumstances. The desired solution would not be achievable without legislation. And I observed that if Rowan had been born today, her parents could marry and both [00:37:00] of them would be recorded on her birth certificate. As a matter of course, New Clause 41 provides that quote. Diane Sullivan and Doreen Margaret Shields are, for all purposes, the parents of Rowan Helen Louise Sullivan. Unquote, that clause reinstates the legal position for all purposes, including the laws relating to succession and parental relationship. And [00:37:30] that, as we all agree, is as it should be, so there doesn't need to be a great deal. More debate, Mr. Speaker, This is a good bill which should proceed to final an enactment forth with with New Zealand first. Wholehearted support. Uh, I am advised. This is a split call. Four minute bell. Melissa Lee. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I'd like to first of all, acknowledge Roan Sullivan and her mother, Dorian Shields up in the gallery. Uh [00:38:00] um, so welcome. And thank you for being here. It's almost like, you know, I'm getting the energy, uh, from up top. It's a great pleasure to rise in support of the third reading of this bill. I'm unsure how it actually happened, but, um, I'm quite sure that I've been involved in this bill right from the beginning from the first reading, including turning up, being subbed on to the select committee hearing when Ro Roan was actually presenting to the, uh, uh, government admin select committee. Um, and I I've been involved with the second reading as well as [00:38:30] I think the committee stages and now the third reading. So it is an absolute privilege. Thank you. I'll also like to put on record that I am extremely jealous of my friend across the bench, um, benches Luisa, as she has shepherded successfully a very, uh, high profile members bill and now a sponsor of this private bill which I believe is very meaningful So, congratulations. Once again, um, a member before dinner said, this issue, um I think was simple. And I think another member said, It's it's [00:39:00] it's the little things that actually matter. And I agree with both. They seem simple and little, but only in hindsight. And you know what they say about hindsight, sir? 2020 vision. But at the time when this private bill that Rowan and her mother, Doreen, was putting through the select committee when they were petitioning Parliament, I'm sure it would have seemed like a mammoth task that, you know, something that means so much to them was so hard to actually get through. But with the help of, [00:39:30] um, our friend Louisa and the members of the Select Committee, this has actually happened. And, uh, I, I sort of can't imagine Louisa with wings, uh, on her back. But, uh, she should feel like a fairy godmother right now. And all of the members who actually help, uh, make this happen should also feel like a fairy godmother because it is granting Rowan the wish that she's been wanting for such a long time. So congratulations for being her very own, uh, fairy godmother. Um, [00:40:00] I know that, um, um, at the conclusion of this bill, when Roan's birth mother's name, Diane Sullivan, is again added to Roan's birth certificate the simple and yet a mammoth action adding 13 letters Diane Sullivan will mean the world to Rowan and we as members of Parliament. I also feel a bit like a fairy godmother at this stage as well. This juncture, I will also like to congratulate the members of the select committee. Uh, who considered this bill? [00:40:30] And I think I have to say they've done a fantastic job. Just a quick background on this bill. Um, this does not create a precedent for other individuals seeking to change their registered birth record. And it's a real shame, because I wouldn't mind changing my birth state. Uh, Rowan Sullivan had no other means to achieve this outcome. Um, she wished, uh, for other than petitioning parliament. And this bill applies only to Rowan Sullivan's unique situation, which which arose as a result of a unique combination of circumstances [00:41:00] which began with her birth overseas, which meant her birth was not registered in New Zealand. I just want to dwell on this for a minute about the registration issue? Um, it it's quite a significant one for many New Zealanders who are actually born overseas. And without wanting to make the light of Rohan's situation. I, too, was born overseas. I moved to New Zealand and became a New Zealand citizen, which meant I had to give up Korean citizenship. This means that my this does not mean that my records were deleted, [00:41:30] But, um, when I moved here, you know, just bypassing all of the other stuff. But I I got married. I had a baby. I got divorced in New Zealand. I'm recorded as such, but in Korea, apparently I'm still single, never been married, never had a child. So I've got a clean record clean slate. I mean, I don't know if that's actually a good thing or a bad thing, but, you know, I'm not recorded in Korea because I've actually moved here talking about records In previous readings, I sort of talked about the red, You know, my my birthday being registered wrong. [00:42:00] I know that this is an issue for a lot of migrants as well. A lot. A lot of refugees who moved to New Zealand. You know, especially when they have come from war torn countries. They have wrong birth dates, wrong names and even New Zealand born Chinese who have, you know five generations in New Zealand can attest to this. When they first arrived in New Zealand, their names were recorded wrong so often they ended up with the first name of their ancestor. And to my culture, our names, our last names [00:42:30] mean so much because it ties us back to our roots and the name actually shows it is my clan. Often it comes with the prefix, which denounces, which actually shows us which clan we belong to. Often it comes with a generation name, which basically means that with that name, people can identify whether I'm a grandmother's level. I'm a child's level or a mother's level, so they know how to identify. And names are so very important. So, Louisa, maybe you can come up with another member's bill to write [00:43:00] my birth date asides. The joke. I'd like to just say thank you. Congratulations. Once again, Rowan, my Love. Thank you, Doctor Paul. It's a great pleasure to have the opportunity to support the Sullivan birth certificate bill in its third reading. And might I, too, acknowledge Rowan and Dorian up there in the gallery? I, too, feel almost as though I've been on a little bit of journey in that though I'm not on the select committee, it has [00:43:30] been a great privilege to part of this process here in the Parliament, which is quite historic and is indeed unique to the circumstances. There is no doubt this is a situation driven by a young woman's determination to honour her mum as I understand it. In her own words, she said, I want my mum mum's name in my birth certificate to honour [00:44:00] her. This bill is indeed about human rights and very deep rooted human instincts that all of us, uh, should be able to realise, Mr Speaker, in previous, uh, readings of this bill, I've pointed out some of the huge transitions that we in New Zealand and around the world have witnessed in the changes, both [00:44:30] with birth technologies in changes with the law and of course, in changes, uh, in our attitudes to previous areas that were really, uh, extraordinary taboo and, uh, um, in many respects, put things under the carpet that were uh, um only lead to confusion and dishonesty [00:45:00] and often to deep seated resentment. And look, I may I too acknowledge Louisa Wall for the double whammy? It was indeed, uh, her earlier bill that was landmark here in the parliament that led I understand Rowan to approaching her. And congratulations on that. In that respect, um, when I first spoke on this Bill II, I did speak about a variety of examples of young people who had [00:45:30] searched the world more or less, because despite huge hurdles, because of this deep seated instinct to be able to find their parents and know their parents, whether they were alive or not, whether they were in a different country or not. But it's been fascinating to me as a former Oxford gynaecologist to see what's happened in New Zealand over the years. And I was at the National Women's Hospital, a celebration of 50 [00:46:00] years just last month, where I spoke and heard of the extraordinary work in New Zealand that, uh, occurred Professor Bonham, who was the head of the hospital at the time, used to literally mix together donor sperm so they could not be detected because of the legal ramifications. That's how far we've changed, because the opposite is that we [00:46:30] surely want to seek transparency and openness because that's the way people will unravel the huge distortions that occur when, uh, information is repressed. And I want to acknowledge a young social worker called Joy Ellis, who was at National National Women's through the time when the debates on informed consent were raging because she was the one who came up and said, Look, it's absolutely [00:47:00] inappropriate to have the prevailing situation continue. We must have transparency and honesty, and it set the legal profession and academic sociologists in New Zealand working hard to see if we could follow that sort of pathway. I'd like to acknowledge Professor Ken Daniel, sociologist from Victoria University, who has represented New Zealand in the academic [00:47:30] literature in this field, and, uh, is widely regarded as an international expert and innovator in terms of ensuring that openness prevails. And, of course, Freddie Graham, Mont Liggins, who led the IVF team But finally, uh um Mr Speaker, I come back to the bill. This indeed I hope, is very much one of celebration. It is fantastic to see you. Dorian and Rowan [00:48:00] here tonight in the parliament. It's wonderful that, uh, uh, Lusa has been the person that's brought this through to reality. Uh, Mr Speaker, I certainly, uh, think this is a wonderful bill and commend it to the house. I'm advised this is not a split call, Mr Speaker. Thank you very much. Can I say, first of all, that it was has been a real privilege to be involved in this bill and a privilege [00:48:30] to chair the committee. Um, the name of the bill has changed since it was introduced. It started off as the Sullivan birth certificate bill. It's ended up, uh, more appropriately as the Sullivan birth registration bill. Um, whatever it's called it, it addresses an injustice, and it makes a love story come true. And I think it's something that parliament very, really does. But it's something that I'm delighted we are doing with. I understand unanimity tonight, Um, it's a good message from our parliament, [00:49:00] and I think it's a very important step, however unusual it is for us to take. I want to acknowledge, uh, Melissa Wall. Uh, it wasn't good luck that this, um, became her bill. Actually, it was her clarity and her vision and her determination to address that injustice. So, um uh, could I recommend to, uh, Melissa Lee, that if she'd like her, um, registration records put right in Korea to reflect her correct status, She should just write a bill and, um, put [00:49:30] it into the ballot and see if she is as successful as Louisa. But Louisa has shepherded this bill with not with with great clarity and determination, but also in an inclusive way that has allowed concerns and questions to be addressed and answered. And I think that's a very good again message for the parliament, um, to give to the public. I want to acknowledge the late Diane Sullivan, Doreen Shields and their daughter, Rowan Sullivan. [00:50:00] Um, Mr Speaker, this is a pretty simple bill. Um, for those of us who have been involved in legislative procedures that compared to most other pieces of legislation, it's tiny. Um, but its impact is significant. What it does is allow Rowan to have both of her parents names recorded on the birth certificate that she can now apply for when we've changed the birth registration. We put in a new clause in this bill just to put beyond all doubt, [00:50:30] um, that this status, the recognition of both Diane and do is Roan's parents applies in all situations so that not not just parliament, but, uh, Roan would never have to go through this sort of ordeal before or this sort of questioning or this sort of challenge. So I think the addition of New Clause four, was entirely appropriate. And we've got other issues that we want to deal with, uh, later on this evening. [00:51:00] So I'm not gonna take my full allocation of time, but I want to make it clear that that is, uh, the opposite of a reflection of how I feel about this bill. I am delighted to have been part of it. I think it's a very good, however unusual step for our parliament to take. It makes what is a matter of fact that Diane Sullivan enduring shields are Roan's parents a matter of law. That's a good thing for us to do. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am advised [00:51:30] this is again a split call. Scott Simpson. Thank you, Mr Speaker. And I want to just in commencing my contribution to this third reading debate acknowledge the chairmanship of the Government Administration Committee by the honourable Ruth Dyson and her contribution to this debate. Uh, just immediately prior to me. Uh, I think the committee, this, uh, term has had to consider some incredibly weighty issues. And they've done so with great patience, with clarity and with, [00:52:00] uh, dignity. And yet, sometimes they come to relatively small matters, which they have also treated with dignity and grace. And I think that is something that speaks volumes about the, uh, power and might and, um, importance of our little democracy that we have here. So, Mr Speaker, I don't want to go through the details of the spill. Others have spoken at some considerable length about the particular [00:52:30] uniqueness of the situation that this bill confronts and seeks to address. But it is, I think, an absolute irony that the situation that we are addressing and correcting and putting right here tonight would have been fixed or would in fact have not arisen if Lewis walls other spectacular piece of legislation had come into, uh, power or or law, uh, earlier. And so for me, that is something of [00:53:00] an irony and something of I guess uh, a justification if one was ever needed that this is the right and proper thing to be doing tonight. Mr. Speaker, I've mentioned in a previous contribution on this bill, but in a previous life. In fact, immediately prior to coming into parliament, I had the great pleasure and honour of being the CEO of a wonderful Children's charity called Make a Wish. And Make a Wish is a terrific organisation. It literally grants wishes [00:53:30] to sick Uh uh, and, uh, young people, Children and young people who have life threatening medical conditions. And so, in my role for nearly three years as CEO of that great organisation, I was literally and figuratively a professional wish. Granter and I made mention in my maiden speech that one of the challenges I felt that would confront me in going from a professional wish granter to becoming a parliamentarian was how could I transition [00:54:00] those job skills into this place? And so tonight, Mr Speaker, I have to say that I have something of a sense of achievement, that, uh, small goal of granting a wish. And in doing so, I want to just commend to the house not only the bill, but also the power of a wish. And it's something that I don't think we as adults as parliamentarians, as MP S should ever underestimate in any respect or way. We are fortunate, [00:54:30] Mr Speaker, to live in a small, precious, intimate little democracy. Usually the work of this house and members of this house is occupied on focusing on the many occasionally, and it's fully appropriate that we do. We focus on the few, almost never do. We focus on a single person on a single individual citizen. And so I think, sir, it's an [00:55:00] absolute hallmark of this place and our democracy and our parliament that in fact, we can come here tonight to do just that, to focus on an individual citizen who has an injustice that needs to be put right. And so, sir, this is, I think, an historic occasion for our house. It's an occasion where we can together accept that sometimes, as I came across many times in my time, uh, [00:55:30] at make a wish, an acceptance that life sometimes isn't fair and that from time to time, no matter what the circumstance, bad stuff sometimes happens and bad stuff sometimes happens in a very unfair way. But that doesn't mean that sometimes great things can occur from small deeds. And this, I think, is an absolute classic example of how, uh, small deeds can have great power [00:56:00] and great influence. And so, sir, in summing up my contribution in this third reading debate, I do just want to, uh, congratulate the house, actually, on its resolve to achieve what I think would not occur in many other democracies. And I think that we can, uh, as parliamentarians as and indeed as citizens of New Zealand, be proud of what we're doing tonight. I commend the bill to the house. Honourable Kate Wilkinson. Uh, thank you, Mr [00:56:30] Speaker. And it's my real pleasure to stand and take, uh, albeit a split call on this third reading of the Sullivan birth certificate Bill. Can I also acknowledge Rowan and Diane in the gallery And, um, just commend you for your persistence, your determination, your bravery and your courage to have what is a very personal situation aired in the in the public gallery of Parliament of New Zealand and and to have a bill [00:57:00] in your own names go through hands, go through the process. Uh, because this is what is really important to your lives. And I really commend you for that. I also want to obviously congratulate Louisa Wall with some envy. And, uh, So, um, for having her second member's bill successfully, uh, shepherded through the house. Um, but it's not just the fact that the name that the bill is in the name of the Honourable member Lewis Wall it's the way that she does shepherd these bills through the house and gets [00:57:30] consensus and explains it in a nonpartisan, pragmatic, sensible way. Because this is the right emperor and fair thing to do. I must admit, though, how, Mr Speaker, when I first saw this bill, I thought, No, it can't be right. We can't possibly need a separate, discrete piece of legislation to for just one New Zealand family. It can't be right. Um, and yet the experts, the advisor, said there is no other way. I'm a simp was a simplistic [00:58:00] lawyer in my old days before I was a politician and and we have to think there must be another way. Surely surely the registrar would have had power to change what seems so obvious um, something that needed to be changed. Why didn't the registrar have that power? But you know, our experts, our advisors, and we have to trust them said there has. There is no other way. Um and that has brought us to where we are today. And then my second concern [00:58:30] was, Well, will it set a precedent? Because, you know, there will be other families out there who perhaps aren't happy with their birth records or birth certificates or registrations. And would it open the floodgate for a whole lot of other New Zealand families to also try and use the parliamentary process to write some wrongs? And then would it really result in a a long if you like of, uh, of of, uh, bills and legislation through [00:59:00] the house when there are other really important economic issues that have to be have to be, um, shifted through. But again, we we were persuaded and convinced that it won't set a precedent. So it is unique. It is, uh, discrete. And actually, it is the best use of parliamentary time because we're all here to make a difference. And I think that most politicians, uh, that that's our reason for being. We want to make a difference [00:59:30] to New Zealand. We want to make a difference in our country, and we want to make a difference to New Zealanders lives. And there is no doubt in my mind that this bill makes a huge difference to the lives of Rowan and Diane. And so it's sort of it's a win win win. Really? Um and so I am delighted that that, uh, I have the opportunity to speak at this third reading of the bill. Um, I'm also appreciative of [01:00:00] the commencement date, and we all want this bill to go through quickly and to get it right and remedied as soon as possible. And the commencement date is, of course, the day after the royal assent, which I actually think is quite timely when we have the Royals visiting at this moment. And we're all reminded because we they are a a wonderful young couple with the prince and princess, and, um, they have a delightful young George. And, um, I just [01:00:30] think it is also quite timely that, um that they are here at a time when the commencement date for this bill will be the day after that. Royal assent. So, Mr Speaker, um, this is really a very straightforward bill. Uh, it simply requires the registrar general of birth deaths and marriages to record the details of Rohan's mom on her birth certificate. I say to the registrar, General, [01:01:00] just get on with it. Just do it. It's only fair. It's only reasonable. It makes a huge personal difference to someone's lives. That's what we're all in Parliament to do just to the registrar. Don't waste time. Sort it out. I commend this bill to the house. Williams. Thank you, Mr Speaker, for allowing me to take a a short call on the, um, on the the reading of this [01:01:30] bill. I don't want to take too much time to hold up the passing of what is actually a very significant piece of legislation for those people sitting in the gallery. And, um, thank you for being here today. Um, when I had the opportunity of speaking on an earlier reading, I spoke about how this this bill is a bill about love about love for, um, two parents for their child and love for that child. For her parents. Um, and it has it had to be, uh, a powerful emotion like love that [01:02:00] has seen you through this process of the fortitude. You've had to, um, uh, hold to engage in this particular process. So I hope today you feel, um uh, justly, um, that all that that, uh the what? My goodness, what a process it has been that that's been justified. And today that you, um, feel that what your action is as well and has you've done the right thing. And I really want to commend you for doing that because as, [01:02:30] um, I have spoken in the house before. It does speak volumes for those of us who are adoptees about, um, our, uh, recognition, um, of our birth parents. And I think that it's really opened up a discussion for all of us, uh, at some stage to consider the families the diversity of families and about parenting and parentage. So I thank you very much for doing that. I want to commend also my colleague Losa. Wall, who, um, has held this this [01:03:00] bill very dearly and has encouraged such widespread, um, uh, bipartisan work on this from both sides of the house. And that's, um really due to Lesa as a parliamentarian and as a thoroughly decent person who knows that by doing so by being the type of person that that she isn't the type of parliamentarian that she is, that she would pass this with unanimous, um, support from all parties. So thank you, Lewis, for that. [01:03:30] So without further ado, I'm going to finish my call and heartily commend this bill to the house. Thank you very much. The debate has now concluded, and the question is that the motion be agreed to those of that opinion will say I contrary. No, the eyes have it. Sullivan Birth certificate Registration bill. Third reading Call on Members Order of the Day Number one Electronic Transactions. Contract Formation [01:04:00] Amendment Bill Committee stage.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089591
TITLE: Sophie Jayawardene profile
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VOICES: Sophie Jayawardene
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland Hospital; Australia; Body Positive; Gisborne; HIV / AIDS; Judith Ackroyd; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Sophie Jayawardene; Sophie's World: Journey of the Lost Soul; Zimbabwe; abortion; activism; children; discrimination; education; family; fear; guilt; health; health system; heterosexual; identity; immigration; isolation; loneliness; loss; love; mental health; paranoia; safe sex; school; self esteem; self respect; sex; stigma; termination; wellbeing; writing
DATE: 17 April 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Sophie talks about being diagnosed HIV+ in 1989, her journey with HIV and living positively.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My background is I am Zimbabwean, uh, from the southern of Africa. I came to New Zealand in 1989 with my two Children. My husband, uh, as teachers and in nine, we came in 1988 in 1989. I was pregnant, Um, at six months pregnant, um, caring twins and, uh, during, uh, pro a procedure. I found out that I was [00:00:30] HIV positive, and, uh, there was nothing to be done from that moment. We we I was sent to Australia to terminate the babies, and, um so I did come back to New Zealand, and that was the beginning of my horror life, I should say. And, um, just just to to break in there. How did you react when when you were told you were HIV positive. I was taken to a hospital, uh, in Gisborne and officials [00:01:00] that were gonna meet us, uh, came over there and told us how serious my situation was. I've never heard of AIDS. My husband I never heard of AIDS, so we had this official in a little room, which they basically say to us, uh, your Children you are carrying, uh, carrying the same virus and your the virus you're carrying kills other people. And I was the first in New Zealand to have a A virus. So at that time, the reaction was, how do I come to a place [00:01:30] I thought I was gonna love and flourish and bring such a horrible disease. I was frightened. I was really, really scared. And we tried to see if we can go to England to give birth to the babies and bring them back. And they said we can't bring them back. The immigration won't let us bring them back in. And because of my situation coming from Africa, we come here to look for good life. We didn't have time to think about it, but really, we knew it wasn't an option to take the other two. We had already [00:02:00] back to Africa. So we decided to do what we were told, which we were told aids immediately in that conference that we were going to go to Australia. Uh, someone from the AIDS Foundation was gonna come and contact us or our arrangement for travelling already arranged. Um, so I was sent to Australia while I was in Australia. Uh, at the Sydney airport. I was met by AAA man who took me to the APP uh, point points clinic in Sydney. [00:02:30] And I had, um, termination there, and he came back to pick me up. And this was my first time I've met a gay person. I've never met anyone who is gay. I never really know about gay people, but what happened when I was in the car was something that not does not happen where I come from to start with, they were very lovely to me. They kissed me. They put me in the car and they looked at each other with this most loving gesture that I didn't think two men could look at at each [00:03:00] other like that. They took me to the house, which I drew I can draw. That house was so beautiful. It was so clean and fed me, uh, put me in the bath, run the bath. Tell me to leave all my pets and everything which was so against my African heritage. And men don't touch women's pets. And all the things they did it was like having a nurse. But I was with a couple. Uh, but this time I understand that I was being looked after by gay people, and I also didn't understand why [00:03:30] they were looking after me when my doctor was not gonna touch me. My midwife was not gonna touch me everywhere in New Zealand. He was not gonna touch me. Um, So the next day, they took me back to the airport and I flew back to Gisborne, where I was living. Uh, from that time, really, I tended to have lost sense of who I was. I've lost my babies. I couldn't cry about it. I couldn't tell my neighbours about what had happened to those babies. I was scared because I was quite a big lady. Um, [00:04:00] we just didn't know what to do. And we never No one ever came back from that panel to help us. We were given a number to call one lady, and I would mention her name because she had done her fantastic work in the, um uh, during the Pande Pande make, uh, Judith A. So she was my only contact if I got realistic and want to see someone, um, from that time, I just become an ill person. I was diagnosed with liver cancer, which, uh, later [00:04:30] on I found that I didn't have liver cancer. We left Gisborne moved to We left, moved to Auckland, just looking for where there was coverage where nobody can find or know who we were. We were It was very difficult. At the end of the day, I couldn't look at my husband. I couldn't talk to him because the first time we were told we were HIV, they told me from now onwards, you you have to use condoms. We've never heard of condoms or seen them. So even our life love life goes straight [00:05:00] away. On the day I was diagnosed, uh, back in Auckland, I tried to go to university to do teachers training. I had teachers training college and so wondering, What am I doing here? I'm going to die anyway. So a year later, I quit my training and, um, left. My husband started my own business, um, in Afghan hair braiding hair extensions, watching my Children grow, thinking what was gonna happen. But something changed [00:05:30] during this time I become a sit girl. I figured it out that I have to survive. I figured it out that I have to look like everybody else. I figured out that I can't look sad. I can't look misery. So I went to the gym and I look great. I went to party. I just did everything I drank. I smoke, um, and I would become someone else. And from that time, I lived like someone else. But in the night, I was someone else again. Daytime. I was this lovely business mother in the night. [00:06:00] I was this. I used to think I'm an alien, and I used to think that the powers that I felt during the time I'm isolated could transform me. I could feel that I could transform into a huge, um, alien. And I would come back to the people and say who I am because I really wanted to tell people that I am Sophie. You know, I'm someone's daughter. You know, I'm a family, but that was just for me to do when I'm in bed when I'm by myself. So it was a long 14 [00:06:30] years before I fell to the ground. Um, I went to Auckland Hospital, which at that time I was really scared because I knew that I had to be isolated, and then everybody would know that I'm HIV positive. Earlier on, we used to be coded, but I was surprised that when I went to the hospital this time I wasn't coded. My name was so I ordered. And, um, the doctors were no longer wearing gloves and they were talking about medicines because I was actually dying when I turned up on the doctor's hospital [00:07:00] and they were not wearing gloves anyway. They're talking about medicines. Well, let's try this and let's try this and thinking, Oh, this medicines, something came in my head that maybe I was just neglected. Nobody followed me up for 14 years. Nobody even knew that I existed. And for 14 years I didn't know that there was new medicines that did come up. Um, it took a while before the medicines kick in. And, um, when I could talk and think straight, I started writing a journal to [00:07:30] lift my Children. My daughter was 18 by this time. When I was diagnosed, she was 3. 5, and I had prayed that if God was gonna take me, can you take me when my daughter was 18? So probably that's why I was so sick. Um, and I couldn't believe I was so scared that I asked to die when my daughter was 18. Now my daughter was 18. I was actually dying. And so I said, Let let me tell my Children what was killing me But I couldn't come to say it. I wrote and wrote. Every time [00:08:00] I wrote what I was really feeling, I felt better and the doctors were amazed. I think I wrote about five chapters while I'm in the hospital, and every time I wrote one, I feel way better. And by the time I wrote my chapter four, I could walk and I decided to tell my Children, uh, I didn't tell them about what I was writing about. I just told them I took them home and I told them that I was dying of this and this and, um, it was really sad, Um, [00:08:30] to think that my Children had thought they these cool kids, they go to expensive schools and live in expensive house Mommy driving an expensive car. Yet she leaves that dark secret. They cried, both of them. My older son was 21. By this time they all cried and just told them I'm not dead yet. I'm still here, so we'll just see how things were gonna go. So you were diagnosed in 1989. And, uh, this was about in 2001 [00:09:00] when I got really sick. Can I just take you back to those early years like, 1989. And, um, you you initially said that you were the first in New Zealand. What? What does that mean? When I was told by my doctor that the government officials are going to come and talk to you about this. This is just after being diagnosed, they called us and said, We have to go to Gisborne Hospital where the officials were gonna be. So me and my husband, we went to [00:09:30] hospital. And while we were there, there were a panel of eight people. I do know that very well, because the people were sitting in front of us, Uh, eight of them and me and my husband on the other side. It was just one room. There was no other rooms. It was a one room and my gynaecologist was there. Shirley Robertson. That's the only person I remember to up to to die. I don't remember the rest of the people. And, um, they told us what we heard. They said, Do you Do you know, you have got HIV [00:10:00] A I they didn't even call IV. They say you've got aids, and we sort of nodded our heads. Uh, do you know what that means? And we are sort of nodding our heads, not answering. They say that means you're gonna die in the next 18 months. And when you're nodding your head, you, you, you, you you, you don't know don't really know what we have. You know, I was saying, I don't know because I had just had it, like, two weeks prior to this, so I didn't know what I had. So we're told that [00:10:30] this disease will kill you within the next 18 months. And the problem with me was I'm carrying a baby. You know, two babies, you are pregnant and your babies, they've got the same disease. And if they come out, they will do the same thing. They'll die like you. So the best thing for you to live a little bit longer beyond the 18 months they have to get rid of those babies because we are not given enough information whether these babies were gonna die as well or was gonna die. [00:11:00] So we didn't know anything. The people we were looking at were the only solutions I guess would give us the solutions. But at the same time, when they really introduce what I heard, they said, Do you know you've got AIDS? And we know that? Yes. Because now, by this time, my doctor had told me, Do you know you are the only you are the first one. They use the words first one, in this country. Well, I didn't, so we just looked strange. I don't [00:11:30] know. Um, the best thing I could describe this scenario is you know, when you have been caught trying to sneak in a country, that's how I felt. I felt like I I've done something. I thought like I was being judged. I was in front of a panel who are judging me for killing somebody that I killed somebody. That's how we felt, probably to anyone who would have been in that room. They would have seen my frightened face. I was really, really frightened. [00:12:00] I didn't know what to do. And so we didn't have know what to do. We left everything to the panel. But everything in that moment was already arranged. Our tickets were arranged. Where was going was arranged. If we didn't take those options, we have to leave the country and not come back. That was the immigration, so I don't know if anyone in that panel was from the immigration we we left. We went home a couple of days later, I flew to Auckland and get the, um, abortion done, Uh, termination. [00:12:30] It wasn't an abortion this time because they were babies. The termination done. And, um, the only people I ever had contact with cuddled me like we do when someone lost their babies was the two gay men that I couldn't even remember their names The minute I left and I never met them again, I never called them again. I just went home and disappear. Somehow I got my life back. Um, by 2005, I was starting to feel better, and I decided I was [00:13:00] going to rewrite my book properly. So I wasn't rewriting. I was reading it again and and try to make it sound properly or the spelling changed the spelling I wrote about. I rewrite about three times. So I phoned people who, uh, advertising whenever, uh, publishers. I said to them, I want to publish my book. This is here in New Zealand. They said, What's in your book? And I tried to hesitate, but I have to tell them what? My book. Now we don't publish those kind of stories, and then I'll [00:13:30] phone another person. Then I'll ask them. Do you publish books? And are you a publisher? No. Who are you? I said, I don't know. What do you mean? Uh, Do you Are you something I said? Like, what are you a netball player or a rugby player? I said, no. No, we don't publish that. So I got really frustrated. I finally found, um, a publisher in the States who does self publishing. And I published my book, which is of his World Journey of the Lost Soul. At this time, [00:14:00] I I had changed very much because, uh, my my focus was like if I didn't die the last four years I've lived in hospital. That means I might have another five years now to be able to tell my story. It wasn't so much of telling my story. What's in my story? I don't see it being relevant. What's relevant in my story is this kind of things. I suffered loneliness, isolation, [00:14:30] feeling like you don't exist. You are one person who live, among others. I That's what I called myself. I either called myself mental because I wasn't normal because it's the normal people in me, uh, or a person who lives among others. When I'm walking around other people, I feel I'm walking Aro among them, but they can't see me. They can't feel me. And I live like that for so long and I start thinking. But this time you know the world is I've [00:15:00] been watching. I've been watching the the world, um, disappear. I've been watching the virus, you know, terrorising people. I've been watching people being buried in mass graves, and I was still here. I think when I realised I wasn't the only one, I started thinking do everybody felt the same way as I felt, or because what happened to me was different from the other person. It [00:15:30] still didn't make sense. What happened to me happened to me because of the situation I was in. I was pregnant. I'm a I'm a woman. But the fact that the virus itself has got a stigma that makes us misery, I thought, like if other people don't walk around in the hospital instead, I've got it. That means they must be failing it. And I really wanted to go and share with them, which was the hardest thing. And it still the hardest thing today. Uh, people don't come out and say they've got a virus. [00:16:00] People don't come up and say I'm failing to die. Um and that gives me a different strength to why I'm here. The purpose for me to be here to die, Um, because I found out that just a secret living in in a secret way, or you you carry something within yourself causes illnesses, other illnesses, and I normally say cancerous [00:16:30] things that you keep deep down why I say that? Because when I was talking to myself putting on the paper, it was coming out of me in the last two years that I actually wake up in the morning and make it my business to talk to the world and tell them how I feel. It's almost like everything was taken out of my system and it's something I talk about. It's like it's not inside me. So I really believe that the part of those people [00:17:00] that are like me, uh, positive people may need a shift from a behaviour. Uh, it's a hard behaviour to start because there are people outside who are not a positive that might not accept us. But if you are doing it for yourself if you want to live longer, if you want to live happily, you might have to change. Change the attitude. It's an attu required because nothing is gonna change for our positive [00:17:30] people anymore. Those who are outside, uh, who are not positive people. From what I see from what I saw then, when I was living in the first line, which I talk about, I talked a lot about my those days in the first lane in my life. You know, I picked up guys, you know, I know how to pick them up. I knew I end up knowing who is sick and who isn't when I'm looking at some I said you must be HIV positive. And I still do that today. And I'm not [00:18:00] wrong. Maybe 95%. I am right. I can pick them up. So I used to go out where these people are like, uh or like places I like to hang out. I would not want to hang out in a tatty place because now I become, you know, the city girl. And I started knowing how people think and behave when it comes to sex. If I look great and I know how to talk, I'm likely to be picked up by a guy than the lady that is sitting there That is healthy, maybe looking a little bit fluffy. [00:18:30] No. And I realised the ignorance in it all because because I look like that someone will come to me and said, Oh, you do. Where are you from? I said, I'm from Africa. Aren't you like there's no there? I said, Really? I said, I don't know Now. This was the first lane where I learned the ignorance about sex, how people catch or, um, our people [00:19:00] wake up in the morning and say, My God, what happened to me? We go out there we in in in our way of living. We don't understand that. Um we live in a swimming pool. We all swim in there. And that's how one person thinks I can do that or I hang in Ponzo, for instance. You don't find people Who are I in? I hanged in Ponzo. I hanged in the stand. I hanged at the waterfront. I hanged where the real people are because I'm [00:19:30] so real. It's only that I'm no longer part of you guys. But one thing I realise we all need to have sex and sex was part of the same. And how could I run around and said, Oh, you know, my gadgets are not working when I I want to be filled. And one thing I also recognise what I thought I needed some love and I had to steal it. How do I steal it? I look nice. I look cool. Then the guy cuddles me, kisses me, do things to [00:20:00] me The worst time in my life The first time I had sex. I like telling that part. I, um it was like two years after I sleep, I left my husband and I was really scared. I didn't want, you know, because I knew I could give it to somebody else. But I was going out. I started becoming someone else and drinking, smoking. I never done that in my couch and nobody smoke or drink in my family. I'm talking about the women. We live the woman life. But now I'm an alien. I'm just, you know, living there. I want [00:20:30] to survive. I want to see my Children grow. I went to the, uh there was a bar or opposite TV one, and I was in there, my girlfriend. And, um, this gorgeous guy was just so gorgeous. And so he comes in and all these girls were feeling jealous of me, you know, a few beers, you know, he relaxed a little bit and, you know, I didn't know what to do. So he took me to his place and I got there, and he, um we went so he poured a glass of wine and [00:21:00] I wanted to say no, you know, But I couldn't say no because I am HIV positive. I just said No, no, no, no, no, no. Before I know it, you know he was on me. I do remember that for days after that I felt like I've killed somebody. I, I prayed to God. I said, please, God, not him. Please, please, please, Please, please. For years I felt guilty. [00:21:30] I was so paranoid, I had to find out what was the symptoms which was paranoid. Looked around me to think Oh, my God, Someone knows what happened. And it was just in my blood. But I thought someone was watching me. 24 7. But I couldn't stop living. We all need to live, and that's where the subject comes back. What are we going to do next? When this disease comes back? Another one of the sort. Do we just go killing people? Who's got it? [00:22:00] What do we do with them? Do we talk about? We don't want education in school because we don't want to talk about the disease because we don't want our Children whose child doesn't want to know about this. When I'm telling you where I was before your child was there. And these are people who are caught in the, um in the influence of ignorance or ignorance of influence one way or another because There are so much people there that have got power to influence the world and those who doesn't have get caught in it. [00:22:30] And I saw it all with my eyes and the first thing I did that made me very angry that I spent all those 14 years watching my Children on a trip. They were growing. They were going to those places. I brought them up to be flash to go to those flash places. But those are the flash places. I was going as well, and I watched them. So I said, I'm not as long as I live. I am not going to see any child sitting [00:23:00] on a trap just because they are people. We've got influence, and it's all ignorance because they think they are protecting our Children. They're not because what's out there is not as good as it looks. So my duty, as as I say it is to make sure are no child goes without understanding what's happened in the real world. My duty is Children should understand stigmas. Other people, [00:23:30] those who are different, those who come from different backgrounds, those who come from, uh, different, um, sexual orientation does not make them any better. It only leads to what I call ignorance and ignorance. Faster. Um, ignorance kills faster than a car crash. I've seen it all out there and I'm quite happy for people to ask me. What is that I'm trying to say. What is it I'm trying to do? But so [00:24:00] far I am happy because I've met so many wonderful people. Um that I didn't think they existed everywhere I looked, I just saw people that are horrible. Every person was horrible. As far as I'm concerned. How could I not even grieve? I went to see my doctor a couple of years ago and I say, I don't know. I'm just crying or just cry. I cried for days and said, You are grieving. Just go home and grieve. I said, How do you grieve [00:24:30] in my country? We all sit together and said, Oh, my God. You know, today they said, Oh, my God, I'm sorry. You know, you go to HIV, we actually do that. So we just watch you. We help each other to go over HIV. Now, in this country, if you tell people that they have got HIV, you can't go to the supermarket before people and standing next to the milk fridge. That paranoia. You know, I went to I went to school, uh, last [00:25:00] year to high school, um, telling my story. I was surprised how young people came up. They are just hearing my story. Young girls crying, coming to cuddle me up. I wasn't crying or just telling what happened to me cuddling me up, you know, which is what should have happened then, rather than everybody killing each other. So as a person who didn't go to school to do medical or all these things I only know talk about what happened to [00:25:30] me and what I would like to achieve or how I would like to be used to the society. So for you, when we're thinking about stigma and discrimination, is it what people are doing outwardly to you? Or is it more internal? Or is it a mixture of both? How how How is that balancing? After I've recovered recovery? I've had a good look at what it is [00:26:00] that I was suffering. I was suffering from what was going internally. Because if I really think about it, nobody knew except this panel that I was HIV positive, but the whole world didn't. So because of this the the disease or the virus, I was paranoid. And the paranoia I suffered becomes the stigma was stigmas me because I was being paranoid. I thought [00:26:30] everybody was watching me every day. That is what even today, a lot of people are suffering the stigma that I have I experienced. Now that I'm out is next to zero. It's totally next to zero. And I mean, I say this because it's true. The minute I say to people, I am HIV, I don't get paranoid. Uh, the paranoia is gone. I don't think like people are looking at me. It just will disappear. So it for me it was an internal thing. [00:27:00] No, it's no one so far has come to me and said, Oh, my God, you've got, uh, HIV. Actually, I get stigma. Sometimes when people think I'm gay, they they do, they say, Oh, are you gay? You know, I don't know why they ask me if I'm gay, but I get that, um, in the public sometimes, especially with heterosexual people, because I hang around or most of my friends are gay people. And, um, I just feel like there there is still a lot of work there for people [00:27:30] to understand that, Um, either when someone's sexuality is different, how we feel about them, that's the evil. I'm trying to talk about that. The ignorance I'm talking about because people are people. When I was feeling that I've got HIV and those people don't have, I totally separated myself. But when I came back to my senses No, no, we are all the same. We eat the same, we think the same. We've got the same heart. So because we separate each other according to what we don't like or what we [00:28:00] fear or what we don't know, we cause other people to suffer that, um, stigma. So people are being still stigmas in the sense that sometimes you hear people talking about, uh how, um, HIV affects other people in an ignorant way, like you get it from kissing them, or you know you're gonna be skinny or that skinny girl looks like she's got AIDS. Those kind of comments stigma those who who are HIV positive. But I have not personally have someone [00:28:30] coming straight into my eyes instead, I've got AIDS. Um, I actually have comments like, Maga, you don't look like I've got AIDS. And I say I got this 10 years ago when I started practising safe sex, safe living. Uh, when I meet guys and I said, Oh, you know, um, I'm HIV positive. It was very hard to start the trend, but I had made up my mind. I'm gonna start the trend. I'm HIV positive if you like it. Yeah, I am. If you don't, they [00:29:00] The comments I get from all those, um, people. I've met males. They will say, Do you look to you? They will say You look very nice for someone who they say, Oh, you look very nice or you look very good. And I'm thinking, Do I look very good for someone who's got eyes? Or do I look very good for, um, for as a woman, I don't know what they mean, but whatever they mean it doesn't worry me. I've told them rejection is normal. So someone said, Oh, no, thank you, not men. They have said No, thank you to me. [00:29:30] So how how do you have that conversation? How how does that conversation start when you meet somebody? Self-respect. I think I love myself. Uh, I love life. Um, I love to be loved and I. I want to give love and because I've got that in my basket when I meet somebody, I normally attract those people. Now the [00:30:00] conversation for me starts when someone said they like me They don't just start saying they like, you know, they flirt with me, they do this. I go along with that to a certain extent where point where I made myself that it's not a good idea to go to jump into bed and say, Well, you're in there already. So I have ways where making a date get to know the person very well, not leaving it too long. Not three weeks later, the person is so in love with me. Then you tell him that those news No, maybe [00:30:30] the second date on a coffee like look, I you know you like me. And, um, this is who I am, and I tend to find that those guys I've met along the way, um, they have actually sat down attentively, listened to all this. So in half the time I have to end up telling my story again over or how I got it, Whether my kids have got it and how I feel and what sort of tablets I take If they say it was meant to be. If they go, it was meant to be. [00:31:00] I have been in two relationships in the last eight years both lasting, uh, four years. The other one is still going. I've been foreign affairs today and both, uh, people who, um, have been dating Um negative. So it depends how you can't go in any relationship if you emotionally tattered already. HIV or not, if you are HIV and think you someone won't love you, it's still because you [00:31:30] haven't come with terms with yourself and the virus you live with and what I found out, which which I talk a lot about in my book. I, um my book I wrote is you need to have to go to a point in time where you make peace with the virus you live with. It's gonna be part of me, and someone rejects that you have rejected me, and I'm very, very much on that. And everybody who knows me knows that if you reject HIV or anything you say about [00:32:00] HIV, that is negative. You have actually insulted me. And because I live by that, that means everybody who comes to me you have to live by that. That's how we make our relationship. When you're saying that, uh, when you meet guys and then then you talk to them. Maybe on the second or third date and and and kind of go through your story Do you get tired of of having to tell your story? I found that, uh, telling [00:32:30] my story is not so tiring, but I found that, um if the person at the end of it sort of walk away the first time I didn't probably wasn't big deal. The second time was a big deal. But the third time, uh, I really I thought that rejection everybody else thought, but I thought it on a different level and that, uh, it's quite hard. It's It's something very hard to have to tell someone. Yeah, it's like I feel I felt like I'm [00:33:00] begging them to love me, because if I wasn't HIV positive, I wouldn't have to tell them my story and story again, but I've accepted who I am. I'm gonna tell you over and over again because it's part of the deal. So I I'm just trying to get in my head the the the the the leap between the the first time post, Um HIV diagnosis that you had sex and you felt really paranoid to now where? Where there's a lot of acceptance. [00:33:30] How did you get from that kind of paranoia to that acceptance? I think I used to think myself as a dirty person. Um and I think a lot of of us who are HIV positive feel dirty When you got the virus, you feel dead. HIV is attached to organs. When someone said they were a ISA or HIV, it's immediately they saying you got it through SAS and SAS is to do with my, um, private parts. Now I [00:34:00] thought dirty all the time, to the point when I accepted that. It's I'm not dirty. HIV is me and reading all the things I've read recently, um, helps. But then when I was starting to take my meds and I'd already made my mind that what I want to live like, how did I go to the transition from being paranoid or not enjoying sex or feeling yucky to, uh, I'd [00:34:30] always love sex. I know that. But there was a shift. Definitely. Uh, the behaviour. Even while during these acts, I was more open with my body or flourishing my body because the person I am with knows who I am. And I think that's the most important thing. When you start loving yourself with who you are and what you have and the other person knows what's going on, then you can share. Um um, enjoyable sex. In that sense, Uh, I just [00:35:00] changed something just flicked. And, um, I was no longer paranoid about who I am. I didn't feel that anymore myself. Sophie came back as a woman. Yeah. Can you talk about, um, how meds and also how your kind of emotional state how they they work together or don't work together pretty much work together? Um, our immune, the this the syndrome [00:35:30] is immune syndrome. So if our immune doesn't flourish in good environment and the environment is, um, provided by ourselves, we provide that ourselves by waking up in the morning, practising being happy. Don't just practise it. Be happy for real. Uh, and all those positive things you do for yourself helps your immune to, um to work with meds. I should say, um, when I think of what I do for myself every [00:36:00] day, I think that complement the medicines I take and it it works together. And I really believe that the meds works. I really, really, really believe that. But I think when I look at other people who are HIV positive and myself in my attitude, I look way off them. I my appearance is different. Uh, everything I do is different. My energy for life is different. So your attitude helps in this scenario because it's your immune [00:36:30] system. Your immune only flourish with. There is positive things. Yeah, when you reflect back on, uh, the diagnosis in 89 and how you were treated and how or how you weren't treated, um, by people around you. I mean, what do you think now, about about that time I'm still in conflict with that? Earlier, when I mentioned that if the same disease comes, how [00:37:00] are we gonna treat ourselves and I I'm I'm I. I could see that we would treat us the same way because nothing has been being done. When I was treated with a a secrecy and it being hidden, I felt I was being hidden because someone surely knew I existed. Someone surely knew that I needed to be taken to the doctor. Someone surely knew, knew that I was just me and my Children. I didn't have anybody, but we were just hidden. That's how we felt and what's happening today. [00:37:30] Those people who might have been having good services because our doctors are fantastic. The meds are there. The services are there. But we talk because we're talking about emotional and being recognised. Where stigma stands, nobody comes and talk to you. We've got people sitting in offices, just doing paperwork and writing what the medicines are doing that doesn't work on a social, um, level social level, for Well-being is actually having a contact. [00:38:00] Someone contacting you, someone talking to you, feeling like you've got contact. There's nothing. It's too very secretive. Nothing has changed. We are still a a HIV. People are so a A. There is this movement that is going a A as an alcohol anonymous. There's a movement that's happening in around the world. That is not happening in New Zealand, where everyone is actively helping themselves to say we exist. In my [00:38:30] book, I wrote gay people. Um, they gave me the courage to fight for my life. They mean, if they can get up in the morning and say, Oh, I'm gay, it's tough luck. I'm gonna get up and say I've got HIV. Tough luck. I wrote that in my book for a reason because somehow we feel like just because someone doesn't want to acknowledge us, we just go where they tell us to go and it's still happening today. We have been told that, you know, it's everything's fine. [00:39:00] Go to your doctor. See, your doctor will give you some medicine. What about what's really happening? That is too very much the same, especially in the heterosexual sector. Because when I do hang out or I go and visit these people or talk to them, most of them knows who I am. They definitely thinking Are you gonna tell someone else that you know me that fear When I go to my, uh, colleagues that I work with, they are very much worried about me talking about AIDS and [00:39:30] people who have got AIDS in the public and that defeats who I am. What I aim about is having our people, um, HIV or not in the community have their well-being balanced. Why? How does that work when a woman lives with the virus? Don't, uh, go to Children's school. Don't. Um um they don't do anything. They just go to work, they come home, they What [00:40:00] sort of Children are coming out of this? Children that have got a secret or they've got a behaviour of a secretive person and all that is causing so much in our society. So what happened to me then was probably very not nice. And I understand at that time, I really do understand. But I don't understand today I don't understand today why people are still being secretive of saying, Oh, I know Sophie. She is HIV positive. Or maybe [00:40:30] let's go and ask. So what we can do about things. Or maybe let's put this virus on the open and talk about what's happening in the world and where we are at on a very high level to make sure no one more child tomorrow we have the virus. The people I've met in the community recently that get, um, have been diagnosed. I look at them in the eye and they were the same time I had 26 years ago. [00:41:00] The same time a grown up man. The other day I came to see me and I just said, What's your name? And I started crying. A grown up man, he cried. And I'm thinking, if they've read that this medicine, we're not dying anymore. Why are they crying? There's nothing that the medicine are they? Why are they crying? Because the information is as bad as it was then. When you got HIV, the alien is right inside you. That's why people cry [00:41:30] when someone has been told you've got cancer. You run home straight away and tell your people The doctor say, I've got cancer and everybody come and said, Oh, you'll be fine. It's OK. A lot of us, we don't go and tell nobody, and that's when we go and do what I was telling you earlier on. I'm gonna die anywhere, let put my clothes on and just leave, among others. And those people, among others, are very alive in our society. We don't see them. They don't have a different colour. [00:42:00] They actually look gorgeous. They are out there. So how are our Children going to fight the virus? How are Children going to say OK, our generation doesn't need this virus. And on the other side, we are so segregated by saying the virus come from certain groups of people. That pisses me off. That's not true. You go to Africa, it's there. You go to East America or wherever you go, it's there. It's [00:42:30] everywhere. The virus is everywhere. When it's an illness, it's got nothing to do with people. And for me, if we can all actually actively talk about this and educate everybody and those who are already HIV positive to be looked after emotionally because that's where we are at HIV, uh, causes isolation. Isolation causes mental illness because there there's only [00:43:00] those two things. Whether people are discriminating you or or you discriminating yourself, you isolate yourself and you go to a very dark place. And there the mental illness comes. You might not get the gun and kill people, but you are not a fit. A citizen in a way. Anything you are not. You're doing this. You're putting eggs there and putting that there, you know, you're just mixing just making things. That's not what we want. We want the healthy, well, beings in the society, and there [00:43:30] is another way of helping those who have been already caught into it. We can't forget them. The people are getting so frustrated that they stopped taking their medications to die just because they said, um, I'm just gonna die. I can't be bothered these times myself. I wake up in the morning, I look at my tablets because I don't have the recent ones. We've got the new one, which is one I still got my old one. So I've got five in front of me, plus my blood pressure plus my [00:44:00] mouth vitam. So I've got a cocktail of my tablets in the morning. Somehow I just wake up one day. I don't know what causes it, and I look at them and tea it comes down and sometimes I just don't want to take them. But I have to take them because if I don't take them, what happens to me So people like us, we're still going through those emotions that we need 1 to 1. We just put in our house given tablets and forgotten. Probably that's what is the same as it was before. [00:44:30] Yes, we don't die anymore. The stigma is still very much alive where they are stigmas by other people. It's actually stigmas by the if you say, the society. I don't agree with that because the society are just ordinary people. I just really personally think it's, uh we are stigmas by the people who make laws. Yeah, the people who make laws stigmas us because how come there's no money to advertise this? [00:45:00] You go in Africa and see boards of, uh, HIV on boards. You see Children who have got HIV, you see, um, adults with HIV. You see the word HIV everywhere on bill boards, and they don't have money to buy food. Why are they doing that? Why can't we do it in New Zealand or because we are just too wonderful to have diseases in our country? Or maybe people won't come? But our Children and our people are dying here in this country or suffering and that I don't agree with, and I'm not a politician. So I just do what [00:45:30] I do on Facebook. Talk to people, you know. Look after yourself. Look after your Children love each other, cuddle each other because that's all what we have left.

IRN: 823
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_rainbows_riki.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004296
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089590
TITLE: Riki - Beyond Rainbows
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Jo Jackson / Grizz
TAGS: 1990s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Beyond Rainbows (series); Jo Jackson / Grizz; Māori; Tranzform (Wellington); Wellington; Women's Refuge; arts; coming out; community; confidence; creativity; facebook. com; family; friends; gender; gender expression; gender identity; grandparents; internet; love; martial arts; parents; scene; school; support; takatāpui; transgender; transphobia; whakapapa; youth
DATE: 7 March 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Riki talks about transitioning and transgender issues.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I am a trans girl living in Wellington, and I am 25 years old. Um, at what age did you start to question your gender? Oh, it's going back. Um, I, I say, at the age of 12, Um, I wasn't really questioning my gender back then. I knew there wasn't really something wasn't really right. But I didn't know how. Because, you know, I grew up in a real kind of in the Maori society where, you know, boys and girls, you know, boys, my father [00:00:30] expected a lot from me and, you know, treated me in a certain way. He look, he took good care of me, but it was just the the, you know, the way the gender of different genders are treated in that time, especially in the nineties. You know, the last kind of the area where a lot of change happened. Did you talk to anyone about about your feelings about gender when you were about that age? Who did you first talk to? Um, the first person I ever talked to talked to it about was, um, last year. Actually, [00:01:00] um, I was I was on Facebook because, um, I spent before that I spent about a year doing transgender art, and that's how I kind of expressed it. But I spent a lot of time doing my art anyway. And I mainly draw girls, probably because I was more fascinated with the female body. And also it was kind of my way of showing what I think of myself on the inside, but right in everyone's faces as a way to express yourself. Yeah, well, that's a long time for you to have these feelings without [00:01:30] telling anyone. Was that a difficult time for you? Well, it was It was difficult because, like, I never fit with anyone. I was even like in school, you know, I was always alone, pretty much I. I did make friends, but at the same time, those friends hurt me. I wasn't quite sure it's It's either, like they were saying bad things about me or, you know, they they just didn't understand what I was like. And it wasn't like acting. Let's say, you know, like totally cliche or anything. I think [00:02:00] just the kind of vibe I gave off in the kind of things I did, Um, I wasn't interested in anything that anyone else is interested. I wasn't interested in doing, you know, like the the the casual things, like rugby or basketball or things like that. I wasn't into those sort of sports, and I never really liked to hang around with, you know, guys as well or girls. I was kind of in my own little kind of thing there, you know, and I'd meet people who were sort of the same. But in the end, you know, I couldn't really find who I fit with in the end. So I spent most of my time sitting in class rank [00:02:30] because of, um, the pressure that was put on to you by your family. How do you think that? Um, the process would have been different for you. Had your family not had those those, um, gender pressures on you? I have no idea. Um, it could have turned out any anyway. You know, um, it's because there was no There was nothing around to educate in my time. There's nothing around there, uh, to mention [00:03:00] or educate it, you know, because I come from a small town in the east coast and they never no one ever spoke about those sort of things. And so, in a way, I had no idea what it was because I, you know, I've never met anyone or or seen anything, you know? So you know, it kind of really what? I really kind of it kind of really started when I when the internet first came, you know, I got the dial up, and then I I just started, You know, I was playing video games on it first, but then, out of curiosity, I started searching these words like gender and, you know, [00:03:30] change and all that sort of thing and, you know, just kind of because it was kind of what I was more attracted to, you know, kind of. That's what I was more drawn to in the end, Uh, that, you know, it wasn't like something I. I was kind of switched on. I was always kind of in that field of stuff, but I spent most of my time on Internet sites that were related to that. But I never met anyone, and I never told my parents or my family who was the first trans person you met. Well, do you remember the first trans person you met? Uh, no, I don't Really. I don't really remember the first trans person I met. Like, I've [00:04:00] I've, you know, during my years growing up, I've come across some and every time I come across one you know, when I was like, younger, my heart will always race. Yeah, I, I kind of I kind of freak out because for me is, you know, not not in fear, but kind of just, you know, something like it's, like, kind of like a I felt really comfortable at the same time. This I was really curious what it was, but I never, never had the courage to ask or say anything. It was just more like, Yeah, I felt because [00:04:30] it's like, um something that really close to me is right there nearby. But I you know, I just didn't know how to communicate or what to say. So I kept to myself a lot. Are you out to your family? No, I am. No, I am. How did they take it? Pretty hard. I guess. It's like, you know, it's it's No, It's a normal reaction for a family. You know, Um uh, for parents, in my opinion, you know, from my experience and from what I experience by talking to others, it's more like, uh, the [00:05:00] parents kind of look back on how they treated their own Children and think they've done something wrong, because I think I've seen the parents because our parents come from a different time as well, and they wouldn't be educated on these things as well. And so and also And so when, If one of their Children come out this way, let's say if it's gay or queer or, you know, feel that they're not in the in the body they want they might think it's their fault. But have they done wrong? Um, my because I, I told my mother I couldn't tell my father. My father is a [00:05:30] very He's a, you know, a very old school guy and a guy, and I spent a lot of time with him growing up and working with him on his projects and stuff, you know, he even took me out of school so I can go work with him out in the country. So I spent a lot of time with him, and I know what he's like, and so yeah, it was, Um yeah, they they're still dealing with it now, Like it's only been almost a year now. Probably a year now, since I came out and told everyone, Yeah, you know, just kind of looking back at it. A lot has changed since then, but not Yeah, they [00:06:00] they're taking it hard, and so and so so is my family. But, um, when I recently because my grandmother passed away in October last year. So it was a huge family reunion, you know, for her funeral. And, you know, I met a lot of family members I haven't seen in a long time, and I actually got quite a good bit of support. But what's really what really bothers me, though what I want to get sorted out is my parents. I want I want to have their not their approve, but I want them to kind of they they do love [00:06:30] me, and I love them. But I want them to kind of, you know, feel I want to feel the love from them. Yeah, and it's I find it difficult to communicate with them, even though they are accepting, you know, But for me, I, I know that there's, you know there's there. There still needs to be a bit more time for them to adjust to this. Yeah, In what ways could they express the love they feel for you so that you feel it? Do you think, um, I got to spend more time with them because I I've been here the whole time and they don't [00:07:00] know what They don't know what's going on with me. You know, they don't know what's happening and they Yeah, and they they want me to. They want me to come back and live with them, which I agree. And I I will and later this year move back with them. But I, I think, yeah, I need to spend more time with them and show them you know how happy I am and how much I'm willing to help them out. Help the family And, you know, and because my father, he he wanted me to be the successor to the family and I said, Well, I can still be the successor to the family, you know, it's not worth stopping that [00:07:30] and yeah, that's that's all. I really just kind of get to know them again, That's all I think. Because I don't see them enough anymore. Yeah, too far away. How did your friends react when you came out? My friends, What's funny about my friends is I've always I've always, like, hung out with people. They were quite open minded about everything you know and quite quite chilled out about everything. Sure, a few of them were surprised. But in the end, life carried on as usual. Yeah, um, sometimes I forget which [00:08:00] bugs me a bit at times, but that's just, you know, that's normal. But, um, I think I have not really lost any friends over this. Um, I think I might have lost one, but that might have been my fault because I kind of had a little tension, but as the perks that comes with what I'm taking at the moment, Yeah, but yeah, I will fix our friendship again. Yeah, it's not really broken. It's just kind of I need a bit of a break from him because he drives me nuts. So it sounds like you have a really good support system. I do? Yeah. Um, I [00:08:30] because my my support Because what? I know, um, my real support comes from my kinder. My martial art is a little We got a little family doing that as well. But it's my martial arts and instructors, you know, they are a gay couple, and they they they have been running the club for about over a decade now. And I met them. At least I've been known them for about six years. And, um, when I came out to them, you know, they're kind of like my second mom. Yeah, um, one of them, because one of them [00:09:00] works for women's refuge and the other one works in a diabetes clinic. But she also knows one of the endocrinologists there that takes me. So it's like a real good connection. But I also got their support as well. Uh, yeah, I. I could say my support is pretty good, like, because, like I said, I think when I, I think when I the people I met growing up or coming to Wellington where I was more attracted to those people naturally, those people that have been more accepting and whatever happens, you know, they'll always be there for me. Yeah, and they support me. Would you say that the [00:09:30] community has been overall a supportive place for you. Um, it is like I like I like to turn up now and then and, you know, socialise. I've always liked doing that at the same time, I socialise with my, you know, casual mates with my with my flat or, you know, their places and stuff. But I haven't been too involved in the queer community because I'm I'm kind of like to keep to myself a lot. Uh, because for me, I've always been that kind of person. I never really like [00:10:00] to have too much, you know, like I. I never like to bring too much attention to myself, You know, Not, you know. So unless, like, unless it's, like, for, like, a a project or something kind of worth of worthy of that. Yeah. Not not not going out there looking for it. Yeah. Have you experienced much transphobia transphobia from other people? Surprisingly, not much. I do know. I do. See, I do know I do Fuck people's expressions. Um, in [00:10:30] my opinion, I just find it funny. You know, I just find it like funny, but also like, give someone, you know, someone having a a usual day and when they see me looking at someone like me gives them something to think or talk about regardless of positive or negative. But I've had, I think recently I had one transphobia experience quite in the bus. Actually, it's, um, this drunk Maori guy I got on and I sat at the he was sat at the back. I went on the same same time as he did, and [00:11:00] I sat in front of him the seat. And as soon as he saw me sit down, he kind of went Whoa and slid across the seat like I ain't And he's swearing. He was swearing at me and all that, and I ain't sitting there. And I just looked at him, took my glasses off him, and I was saying to him in Maori, like, What does that mean? I said, What's the problem in Maori? And he goes, Oh, blah, blah, blah. And he started rapping to me, and I was. I started getting smart. That goes like you talk about dude, you got to lay off the booze, blah, blah, blah, blah, You know, all [00:11:30] that sort of stuff. I was ready to defend myself, but and but what's what's funny was, um you know, he was rambling on about all this sort of stuff, and then I, you know, it wasn't half of it was kind of homophobic. Yeah, I wasn't. It was just kind of just drunken rap. But then I told him where I came from and my heritage and his his attitude completely changed because I said, I ain't no, I ain't a nobody, right? So you're getting smacked to me while I'll tell you where I come from? [00:12:00] Yeah, my family who I am Then who are you? And I was like, Ah, he ended up kind of shaking my hand when he left the bus. So it sounds like a really positive result to potentially negative situation. If if, like a negative situation occurs that involves your safety, the best thing to do is not to pay any attention or not to feel that kind of aggression. That that person is giving you the best way [00:12:30] to to deal with it is either to, you know, politely ask them to you know, not to stop that all. You kind of try to relate to them and If that doesn't work well, you know, you're not You're not the next one. You know, you got two options. Either just leave or ignore them. If you have your group of friends, you are right. Or, you know, worse comes to worst. Yeah, people to the middle. But I always thought if someone were to come and hurt me in the public or weather, I have I. I think I have the upper hand in the fight because I have more of [00:13:00] a reason to defend myself and fight. You know, they're fighting because they don't like me. I'm fighting to survive, and I'm fighting to protect who I am and showing them who I really am. So do you think that's something that you, as a trans girl, have to worry about more than other people? Um, for me, like when I walk the streets, I don't worry about anything Like for me, II. I expect to be treated just like anyone else in society. You know, whether they straight, you know, you know, whether they or gay or, you know, for me it doesn't matter. It's like II. I walk my [00:13:30] day like, you know, like any day and the the things that go in my mind was just normal things. Like, What should I get for dinner tonight or Oh, what time is it? I got to meet so and so there. And I just do that, you know, I never think about it. I never Because I thought if I were to bring any attention to that, you know, mentally that'll that will bring that attention to you in the end. Because you you you're kind of projecting that onto others. And that, and that gives people the chance to, you know, pick at you. Um, but there was, um oh, actually, a few days ago Tuesday [00:14:00] night, Yeah, I was at New World down the bottom there, and then, you know, it was a little young, um, Polynesian boys look pretty cheeky. Polynesian boys. Um, so, you know, walking through the entrance of New World into the into the grocery store, and then, um uh, he kind of was he kind of came straight towards me, and he didn't stop for me to go in, and I just cut right through him, and then he started, like, getting smart to me. You know, he started, he started saying hello to me. But like in a real exaggerated gay, [00:14:30] we going Oh, hello. And I stopped and I looked at him and he did it to me again. And he expected me to kind of, you know, say something. Say something, you know, kind of like that. Like real queer. I just stared at him and I just put my fist up like I wanted to fight him and shifted towards him and he kind of stepped back and I looked at him and then he just walked off and he greeted my friend. I was waiting for me on the inside. It sounds like you're you're really good at dealing with those sorts of situations. [00:15:00] Um, if you had any advice to people who are Trans girls who are coming out or who are finding themselves in these sorts of situations, what would that be? Confidence, Um, you know, intent. It's like, you know, if you if if you go out, it's like I said before, it's your behaviour. If you go out there thinking negative thoughts, you know, and if if If you if you see yourself as weak or vulnerable to others you will. You will receive that because you're attracting that negativity. [00:15:30] I say, Yeah, I'd say the best way to deal with it is not to think about it. You know, because you know, if you if you are, if you are, if you do say you are being who you really are, then what's there to worry? You know, of course, people on the outside, you are people you know who do not understand this, you know, or see it differently. Or there's a bad thing. We see it as that. But that's not your problem. That's their problem. And if they want to show you that problem, well, you know, um, [00:16:00] just, you know, it's don't Don't worry about it, you know, because they want what people these days want to see is a reaction. And you don't want to give them that, you know? Yeah. If you could, um, give any message out to the parents and friends and close family of of people who are coming out as Trans. What would that be? I'd say, um, support because, like for me, I have a lot of support. But like [00:16:30] if if even if Even if that goes by by a fraction that that that gives a huge impact on me like you need. You need your support. Like I say, for parents parents, it is normal for parents to to hurt when when their child comes out saying they you know they want to be this person because that's how they really want to be. Because in in the parents' perspective, it's like, OK, the child they just raised [00:17:00] in a way is is passed on. And now there's It's not. Now a new person is taking their place, but it's not a but you're still it's still that same person. But the parents see it as that, Um, and then you. They'll either deny that it's happening, you know, or cast you out or just, you know, kind of take a wild misunderstanding. They don't know. So my so for words for parents is you know, it will be hard, but give them that support, you know, help them through it And, you know, and and then if [00:17:30] if that person is in doubt of their decision, well, you know, let them figure it out for themselves. But, you know, but never doubt them never never show them neglect. Never, you know, never cast them out. Because the parents, your parents are probably the you know, the biggest thing you're ever going to have. You'll have your friends to help you. But if your parents don't help you, well, that makes it a whole lot harder. Yeah, be a million times better if your parents loved you. So for parents, yeah, love your child no matter what. Yeah, and what can we [00:18:00] as queer people do to help make the way for coming out trans girls easier? Well, there's no way. I wouldn't say there's no way to push that. It it comes naturally. It's up to that person to decide whether to come out or not, whether you know whether to be who they really want to be. And when they and then if they do, you know, like you can. It's It's kind of hard to tell who wants you know who is coming out and who's [00:18:30] not. It's really up to them. What can we do to make the community a more inclusive space for people? Um, I'd say, like, you know, like how we how we did our group at transform Yeah, that's a good That's a good thing. But transform. Transform is a group that takes that's at the evolved youth happen every Tuesday fortnight. And it is for queer and trans people to come meet up and speak their mind about things and learn from [00:19:00] others who have, you know, come out earlier who know more about what's going on. Yeah. Do you think groups like that are important? Very important. Um, because it it it actually, you know, it needed because for me on a regular basis, I hardly meet up with any trans people until I go to that. Yeah, I may see some on the street and things, but, like, you know, they're just carrying on with their day like and carrying on mine. You know, we don't want to go around, you know, talking about that all the times as just complete strangers or other people. You know, I think [00:19:30] that group is specifically for that, and it actually gives you the chance to express your feelings about these about these subjects. Yeah, and and then get your answers from it.

IRN: 822
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_rainbows_keith.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004295
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089589
TITLE: Keith - Beyond Rainbows
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Jo Jackson / Grizz
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Beyond Rainbows (series); Catholic school; Jo Jackson / Grizz; Philippines; Wellington; bisexual; coming out; facebook. com; family; gay; going through a phase; identity; internet; parents; relationships; school; school prom; single sex schools; social media; social networking; youth
DATE: 7 March 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Keith talks about identifying as bisexual.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi. My name is Keith. I am Filipino male and bisexual. Uh, at what age did you start to come out? I think it was around 15 around Year 11. In high school? Yes. And was that long after you had started realising that you were, um, I first started realising that I had different feelings around the age of nine and 10 ish, I believe. But I didn't really come to terms with that myself until around 14 15 and [00:00:30] started coming around coming out around 15. Did you come out as bisexual first Or at first? Yes. And then for a while I identified as solely gay and then identified as bisexual again around year 12 13. What caused those those changes in identity? Um, there was a period in my in time where I didn't feel attracted a woman, or at least I didn't think I was. And then [00:01:00] I not quite sure, I guess I realised that I wasn't really looking at people for what gender they identified as rather as what I was attracted to. And I didn't feel like I should have, like, restrictions on kind of who I felt attracted towards. How did people take it when you came out to them as bisexual. Um, at first I think most of them were surprised. I know there was a couple of people who expected it, but most of the people were surprised because I hadn't mentioned anything before, [00:01:30] and I kind of did it really suddenly did take it. Well, um, for the most part, they did I. I think so. I. I got a lot of teasing for it from most people, and I was the first within my group of friends to say anything of that sort. So I think it was shocking for them. But soon, like not that long. Afterwards, I got pretty used to it. Did you come from a coeducational or single sex school? I was at a single sex [00:02:00] Catholic school. And, uh, do you think being in that environment made it harder for you to come out? Um, at school it was, but yeah, at school. It was, um but I found most of my friends were pretty accepting because they're quite similar to me in terms of like what they think is, like, right and wrong and outside of school. It was fine because most of my friends there were from, like, four varied backgrounds. Are you out [00:02:30] to your parents? I am now. Yes. And do you think them being Filipino altered how they took your coming out? Um, I'm I don't think so. Like, my father has a gay brother, so he was pretty OK with it. And there are a lot of, um, gay Filipinos back, like in the country, at least from what I [00:03:00] have seen and known. And my mother has a few friends. So she was OK with it after a while. Like it was a big shock to her at first. Because at the time Oh, rather, still, currently no one in my immediate family is other than me. But she started by now. Do you think the process would have been different had you come out as gay rather than bisexual? Um, probably I would say. So. How do you think that would be different? Um, because I think, uh, [00:03:30] around the time, my mother hadn't known me with, like, other girls and stuff, so she probably would have questioned it more, I suppose. Like, Oh, at the time I came out to her, I had a girlfriend. So it would have been confusing for her if I came out as gay, I guess. But yeah, I imagine it would be something that she would have had less familiar reality with. [00:04:00] OK, bye bye. How has the queer community accepted you as bisexual? Um, from the people I know around me, they are, like, fine with it. They haven't questioned it really from some other people, like, uh, people. I don't necessarily know very well or something. They'd question me because they're like, you have a girlfriend and you've been in a committed relationship for X amount of years. You aren't bisexual kind of thing, [00:04:30] and it's like it's kind of hard to have to defend yourself and explain yourself and how you feel. But do you find it difficult to maintain your by identity while being in a relationship with a woman? Um, a little bit. It kind of depends on the partner I'm with, like, some of them are a lot more accepting and open about that kind of stuff and others, so not so much like it kind of tends to be pushed aside a bit more. And how do, uh, gay men react to [00:05:00] you identifying as bisexual? Um, no different, really, I guess. Like I haven't other than like the few which I don't really know that do criticise me like the ones I know personally don't have an issue with it and they just treat me as me, which is good. Do you think that in general the queer community is more accepting of bisexual people than more mainstream communities? [00:05:30] It's kind of hard to say, I guess. Like, I don't know if I have as much exposure to like the queer community compared to like other bisexual people. But from what I know, they're pretty OK with it. Like I haven't had very many negative experiences at all with it. And like Like I guess, based on media, it's also more acceptable, especially like I feel like in the media, at least like it's seen as more OK for, like women to be, [00:06:00] I guess, bisexual. Yes, like you don't see it anywhere near as often in like mainstream media, I guess for men do you think it would be more socially acceptable to be bisexual if it was more media portrayal of bisexual men? Uh, I would assume So, like, the media does tend to have a pretty big influence on, like, mainstream society. I guess so. If there was more betrayal, it might be seen as, like, less of a weird thing. [00:06:30] Or, like, different thing. Can you name some bisexual character? Bisexual male characters in, um, popular media. There was that one on that doctor who spinoff, Right? Um, I never saw that, but I knew people that did. Um, there is a bisexual professional wrestler. Uh, and that's about it was the [00:07:00] process of realising that you were bisexual more difficult. Say, do you think than if you were realising that you were gay or or the other way around? Um, I don't think it's, like, more difficult to say, but, like, just difficult in different ways. Like, what do you mean by that? I don't know, like, kind of going through both processes, at least for a little while. Like when I came to a realisation that [00:07:30] I was feeling like I was more gay then, like I didn't have to think about or like, how And like, I guess the people I would be trying to date at that point were also gay. men, and that seemed a lot more straightforward to me at the time. Whereas now that I'm identifying as bisexual, I have to take into consideration what both men and women might think about that if they were potential dating, [00:08:00] um, options, I guess. But yeah. And like identifying as bisexual sometimes I do tend to think like, am I more one way towards another And like, try to have to focus more on, like, I'm not sure if I have potential preferences or biases or whatever Do you think you do? I think I tend to lean more towards effeminate people. [00:08:30] Do you think that that is something that is more fluid for you and changes a lot of the time or is quite concrete? Um, I've always preferred more effeminate people in general. Like, even like Yeah, I've always preferred more effeminate people, I think. But whether I'm more attracted to, like, effeminate men or like a feminine woman that, like changes occasionally but not too much, really. At the time when you thought you were gay, Um, [00:09:00] did you find yourself more attracted to effeminate men as well? Yes. Yes, I did. I'm not really the kind for big muscles and overly masculine things. Yeah. Who are your queer icons? Oh, this is difficult. Um, it's not something I really think of much. [00:09:30] And I don't really think about people to look up to. I kind of just do it myself, I guess. I, I haven't really thought about it. To be honest, if you could say anything to all of mainstream society about, uh, being bisexual, what would you say? Um, it's more common than a lot of people think to, like, experiment and to, like, at least like, be curious [00:10:00] about it. It, uh, I found that out recently, actually, that a lot more of my friends have tried or at least been curious about experimenting with, like, different genders, and not just the one they choose to identify with in terms of, like, sexual or romantic partners. So yeah, I, I guess it's just a lot more common than you think. To want to at least attempt or to be curious about it. Yeah. What do you think? The difference between bisexuality and by curiosity [00:10:30] is, um Well, I guess like in a really shallow level, like the idea of being curious and wanting to try things as opposed to knowing that you are attracted to, like both, I guess. Do you find many people assume that when you come up to them as bisexual, they take that to mean you're vicarious the other way around? No, I think like because I've identified this [00:11:00] way for a while now, So I'm pretty sure like the way I speak about it to them or tell them how I feel seems pretty concrete at this point. So I don't think people take me as vicarious anymore, like maybe at first. But now I'm pretty sure that, like most people just take it as I say it have many people perceived your bisexuality to be a phase and definitely at first, like that was definitely a thing, and especially around the time when I wasn't sure whether I was bi or gay. But [00:11:30] I think now it's been long enough that it's kind of not a phase anymore and was with the people that thought that it was a face. Were they more mainstream people or queer people? Um, a little a little bit of both, uh, around the time when I first came out, so around the time that they would have thought that most of my friends were identifying more in the mainstream camp as opposed to being in, like, the queer camp. So yeah, and they were the ones who are questioning whether I was in the first [00:12:00] place. So, yeah, they weren't quite used to the idea of people in their friend group being bi or gay and stuff. So around. Then I feel like it was more of the mainstream community that was questioning whether I was bi curious or bisexual or gay. Yeah. Have you ever had a negative reaction to coming out as bisexual off the top of my head? Now, um, other than like from [00:12:30] random people, I don't really know on the Internet, but from close friends and family? Not really. No. Um, there was a time I was involved in a same sex, um, bowl issue. I was invited as my male friend's date to his bowl, and we weren't allowed to go school bowl. Yes, and we weren't allowed to go as a couple one week before we were meant to go. So [00:13:00] as a result, we tried to get support on Facebook and there was a lot of slander around them, and I came out to like I was already mostly out to everyone, especially if they just ask. But at this point it was publicly known that I was bisexual and coming out that way. There was a lot of backlash from, like many people from both like no, not many, but a few people from both like queer communities and non queer communities, about whether I was actually bisexual [00:13:30] or not because I had a girlfriend at the time. But how did your girlfriend feel about you being involved in this issue? She was very supportive about it. She was helping moderate our page and defending us and our ideals because she had the same idea and thought of like, you know, she had the same morals as I did about this topic. So it wasn't really an issue for her that I was being invited to his bow or [00:14:00] that we wanted to go together. She was supportive. How popular was the page? Quite popular In two days, it was in five digit. Yeah, there was like tens of thousands of members or like people attending this event from memory. But we did have to close it down soon after. I think, um I think at that point, the school had placed, like, a definitive stance on their, um, policy, and [00:14:30] they just wouldn't allow it. And there was at this point, the page was getting a lot of like arguments from both sides. And it was getting stressful for both of us, especially for my friend. So we decided it was just best to close it down. By that point, what was the school's stance? Um, they said that they would not allow an old boy from the school because I was as a date to the ball, and that was officially what they [00:15:00] said about it. Um, they didn't give us any more than that. They didn't give us an explanation as to why From memory, even though we inquired multiple times about it. Do you think that was a homophobic move on the school front? Um, my opinion was that it was because they didn't really explain it afterwards, or they explained it as like if I was to go, I guess that I would be a disruption to their ball and I would cause havoc, which I do not believe [00:15:30] I would have, but yeah, other than that, they didn't give us an explanation or a good reason. So I, I think it was personally especially considering, I guess, like it's a Catholic school. And I guess their policy, like it did kind of flow with their belief system, I guess. But did the school allow other same sex partners to the board? Um, I have not heard of any since at that school, but there might have been I haven't kept up. Other schools have since [00:16:00] I've been told. But yes, do you think, um, the issue of going to balls is an important one for where you I think it could be like, Well, not could be. I think it is like it's supposed to be one of your more memorable nights being a high school student, especially like your final ball. And usually it's encouraged that you have a partner that you care for or really close to, like, even if it's platonic, you know, and you just want someone to enjoy [00:16:30] your night with. So I think, even, like just I think it's important to be able to take people with you, whether it's platonic or romantic, regardless of their gender. What proportion of schools do you think in New Zealand? Do allow same sex partners? I have no clue. Personally, um, I haven't looked into it for a while, but I've been told by other people that their schools have, like, since been more inclusive and allowing of taking same [00:17:00] sex partners. So, yeah, I haven't really heard of schools still denying it recently. So what can we as queer people do to help make the road for coming out as bisexual? Easier. Um, I think we can just be, I guess, at a basic level, just more supportive in general, about it playing what, Me personally, I [00:17:30] just find it easy to, like, talk to people about it and stuff. And I think just by talking and telling or showing people that it's OK to be open about yourself leads them to, like, be more open about it themselves. And I find, Yeah, I think just being encouraging and supportive is the best way we can go about encouraging other people to come out. And if you could say anything to, uh, young people [00:18:00] struggling with their sexuality and coming out as bisexual. What would that be? Um, yeah, I guess I would just tell them to kind of ignore all the negative energy that people may potentially put out on you. Like I find not worrying about that like people being negative towards you and just trying to find support elsewhere. Being the most helpful thing that [00:18:30] happened to me when in my experiences. So I think, Yeah, just find a good support group and be willing to talk it out and be open with them.

IRN: 821
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_rainbows_laura.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004294
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089588
TITLE: Laura - Beyond Rainbows
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Jo Jackson / Grizz
TAGS: 2010s; Anorexia Nervosa; Aotearoa New Zealand; Beyond Rainbows (series); Christianity; Jo Jackson / Grizz; Wellington; acceptance; bipolar disorder; bisexual; body image; body issues; borderline personality disorder (BPD); bullying; coming out; creativity; eating disorders; friends; heteronormativity; lesbian; mental health; mental illness; mock; parents; psychosis; relationships; sexuality; stereotypes; stigma; youth
DATE: 6 March 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Laura talks about identifying as lesbian and about dealing with mental illness.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I am Laura and I identify as, um, a lesbian. And also, I suffer from borderline personality disorder. Uh, sphere, manic depression, and, um, quite significant psychosis. Sounds like sounds like a bit of a cocktail of drugs you got in the morning. That is true. Yeah, um, how has, uh, having all of these mental issues, um, affect your journey as coming out? Um, [00:00:30] I think I think, you know, with, um, mental illness. You take a while to recognise yourself as a person. And when that when that coincides with sort of, like, um, struggling to find peace within yourself as who you are in terms of your sexuality, that can be a really difficult as well. So, um, it takes it took me a good while to figure out who I was. And, um, what made me me, I suppose, Yeah, instead of, [00:01:00] um, because I tend to and other people tend to define me by my sexuality and my, um, my mental illnesses, because that's all they see. They only see the problems. And, um yeah. So, at what age did you start to realise your sexuality? Um, I When I was 13, I was sort of leaning on all of these boys and just sort of because I was trying to have fun, But I just didn't enjoy [00:01:30] it at all. And, um, all I could think about was this girl, and so that sort of, you know, I sort of thought, Oh, maybe maybe this is a one off. But then, um, when I was in year 10, uh, I had a very good friend, and we had, um, something of a relationship, I guess. And, um, in year 12, she stole my heart. And what can I say? Yeah, that that was when I probably knew. Definitely. [00:02:00] Yeah. And would you say that, um, that process was made more difficult by your mental issues? Oh, yeah, Definitely. Because, um, I had, uh you know, I mean, everyone has something to struggle with, but, um, I had a lot on my plate, and, uh, I found it very difficult. I still find it very difficult to, um, take care of myself. And, um so, [00:02:30] you know, it really, um, hindered my, uh I suppose my, um, journey to finding out what my sexuality was because I was so worried by all of these other problems, and I just didn't want to be who I was. I suppose I wanted to be someone different. I wanted to live a different life or not live at all. And, you know, um, when I found out, or, you know, when I accepted that I liked girls [00:03:00] and that there was no way around that, you know, it, uh, it was really difficult because you're brought up in this heterosexual world, like it or not. Like you're taught from the beginning that, you know, like most most parents are a man and a woman, and, uh, and you know, you're surrounded by this heterosexual culture, and so it's so hard to break out of that and really come to realise who you are if you're trained to think a certain way. [00:03:30] Um, who did you first come out to? I remember I first came out to this group of older girls who I really looked up to, and, um, I we were in the middle of a production of West Side Story and we went into this private room and I broke down in tears. And I'm like, guys, I'm bisexual and of course, you know, like, that's what most people say because they're too scared to think of. Um, it is scared to really [00:04:00] leave that safety behind of, you know, um, loving them because it's so much easier, I suppose. Um, And then, uh, how did they react? They they were totally accepting. They kind of thought, Oh, you know, she's another ting girl with, you know, identity problems. You know, Um, but, uh, they were really kind about it. And they were comforting me because I was, you know, an absolute hysterics. And, [00:04:30] um, it was just like they didn't care. And that was a really good moment for me, I suppose, because, like, you know, the people that matter and the people I looked up to and wanted to shape myself from, I suppose, um, didn't really mind how I identified. So you are you up to your parents? Yeah, I am. Yeah. And I'm assuming they're aware of your, uh, mental issues as well. Yeah, Yeah. For [00:05:00] quite a few years. It's been nine years now. Yeah. So how did your parents react? Uh, with my sexuality. Yeah. With your sexuality, like most important things with me, it came out in an argument and, um, I was sort of, you know, we were screaming at each other, and, um, and I just shouted out Mum and Dad, I'm gay. And they sort of went silent [00:05:30] for a bit because we're a Christian up upstanding, you know, wholesome family. And, um, then mum and Dad sat down and, uh, tried to talk it through with me and see if I was joking or if I was over reacting and, you know, there's still, you know, they don't understand really, uh, at all, even now, Um, and I'm trying to make them understand, But it's also really difficult when [00:06:00] you think that you just have a right to be understood. And no one is really willing to try understanding you. Yeah. Do you face much stigma because of your mental illness? Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot. Um, at first, it takes a while for people to take you seriously and realise that it's actually a serious problem that you're not just some kid with behavioural issues. Um, but, you know, I've had I've had, uh, quite a bit of mental illness. Um, you know, I've had [00:06:30] anorexia as well. Um, for, you know, two years And, um, it's just everyone thinks that, um, you're either stupid or you're incredibly creative and just like having an identity crisis. And, um, but, you know, when I was admitted to hospital, uh, last year people finally began to take me seriously and realised that, actually, [00:07:00] um, it was a problem and that no, it wasn't who I was, but it was a big part of my life. Yeah. Do you think that, um, there's much overlap between the, um the homophobia you get, uh, that you end up with and the stigma that you get for your mental illness? I think you know, I think what it comes down to is, um, people not understanding and people not being willing to understand. And, um, [00:07:30] that's where it's really difficult because everyone is born with a feeling that they have a right to be understood. And ultimately, you know what people seek in life. Um, people seek three things. They seek to, um to be understood. They seek to love and be loved, and they seek to express themselves. And, um, I suppose those are three very, very important things. And, um so when you have, [00:08:00] you know, all of them taken away from you. You You're no longer allowed to express yourself. You know, with your mental illness, you're no longer allowed to talk to people about it. And in the case that it might trigger them or, you know, um, create a problem for them. Uh, and you're not allowed to, um, express yourself, express your sexuality, um, openly, because it's still very taboo. Um, And when no one really wants to understand you [00:08:30] and you feel like you don't have as much of a right to love who you want to love and be loved by by those, you want to be loved by it, it's very difficult to really come to terms with yourself and come to terms with the ever changing world around you. What form has, um, the impression you've received taken, uh, I've been bullied. Um, I have been assaulted, but that was a while ago. Um, [00:09:00] and I. I just have people mocking me a lot, like, uh, especially for my mental illnesses. You know, people will say, Oh, she's happy now, but she's just manic. She's just gone through a manic state, and, um, there'll be, you know, I had a nurse, actually, uh, in hospital, who laughed at my voices and basically called me a crazy bitch And, um said that, um all I was were my mental problems And, um, [00:09:30] you know, the constant putdowns. And I mean, I suppose I'm trying to take them on and, like, make them make myself a stronger person from them and trying to grow from them and understand other people and where they come from. But that's very difficult when you're constantly being harassed and constantly being put down. Um, do you think that the queer community is, in general more understanding of your mental illnesses than more [00:10:00] mainstream communities? I think these days it kind of comes with the territory. Like if you're What do you mean by that? If you're queer, like so many queer people have so many other problems to deal with, You know, um uh, like, I hate to stereotype, and I'm probably gonna really regret saying this later, But like, um, I find that a lot of people in the queer community are incredibly creative and, um, creative [00:10:30] people often creative and bright. People tend to have, um, difficulties like mental mental difficulties. And so Um, yeah, that's a huge generalisation. But, you know, um, that's what I and my experience. That's what I've, um that's what I've, uh, seen and realised. But I think, um, you know, people are just people, and, um, they tend to accept it more and, [00:11:00] um, try and help because they've been in a position where they've been prejudiced against and like, are criticised for who they are. Um, so it's a lot easier to find an affinity with, um, with queer people. I find, Yeah. Do you think that maybe, um, there's, uh, a common cause for someone's queerness and their mental illnesses? Or do you think maybe being queer might cause someone to go through issues that would could result in mental [00:11:30] illness? Or maybe possibly I think I think that's probably, um you know, that's what I've experienced a lot of, Um, a lot of people in in hospital were, uh, were struggling with their sexual identity. And, um, I think it's really, um, when you're quer, you tend to face more problems. Um, than other people. That's not always true, But, um, but you are, [00:12:00] I would say, more at risk of mental illness. Unfortunately, Yeah. Do you have any ideas? Why? I suppose again, it comes down to finding your place in society and, um, and finding acceptance and wanting to fit in and still be accepted by people. So, uh, some [00:12:30] Yeah. I mean, um, I have a lot of queer friends who struggle with body image and have, um, developed eating disorders. Um, as a result, um, to try and fit, uh, to try and fit into one of society's ideals. Unfortunately, yeah. So if you could say to anyone in all of mainstream society about people with mental illness, [00:13:00] what would you say? Um, please, I beg you, just try and understand. You know, like, if you have, if you know someone who is going through mental illness or even if you think you may be going through something, um, or even just in general, to understand people and, like, accept people. If you care about other people, you will research these problems and talk to people with mental [00:13:30] illness. And really, um, try and understand the world that you live in because the world is a far more complex place than we first. Um, believe when we're you know, when We're younger, you know, the the older I grow and the more people I meet and the more the more I come to realise, um, my world, I suppose, um the more I come to realise that people are far more complex than, um, I initially believed and, you know, I just [00:14:00] every new day further confirms that for me. And so, um, you know, I'm very interested in people I'm very interested in, uh, what makes people individual and unique And, um and you know, mental illness is something which unfortunately shapes someone into who they are and like, changes the way they think and the way they perceive society. And you know, their self perception and their perception of others. [00:14:30] So, um yeah, II, I think that, um in my experience, people who have gone through mental illness often have far more depth than, um, other people who perhaps have not struggled with, um with caring for themselves, um, in a way that, um in a way that they haven't been challenged to before. Um, similarly, if you had to say something to all [00:15:00] of the queer community about people with mental illness, would that be the same or different. Um, it's probably the same. Just express a lot of love and, uh, you know, And don't be afraid to be yourself, because that really does help. And if you could put out a message to all of the struggling young people with mental illness, what would you say? Um, [00:15:30] I know that, uh, it's a lot easier to turn to a friend that you trust, but, um, putting that pressure on another person as as much pain as you're going through, um don't depend on another young person for your mental stability. I I even though it hasn't really worked for me, it does work for some people. [00:16:00] Please seek help, Um, and try and build some trust with those you love and those who love you. And, um, you know, just educate people on what's going on, and, um, yeah, just talk to the professionals because they can know some. Sometimes the pills help, Sometimes they don't. But sometimes, um, the professionals methods help. And, um, anything that helps [00:16:30] is worth a go right.

IRN: 820
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ATL REF: OHDL-004293
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089587
TITLE: Rachel and Stacey - Beyond Rainbows
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Jo Jackson / Grizz
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Beyond Rainbows (series); Jo Jackson / Grizz; Pushing Daisies (tv); Wellington; aromantic; arts; asexual; attraction; being a plant; cartoons; coming out; community; creativity; dating; demiromantic; education; friends; grandchildren; gray-A sexual; greysexual; internet; invisibility; media; minority; parents; queer; relationships; representation; romantic; safe sex; sex; sex education; sexuality; single sex schools; social media; social networking; television; transgender; tumblr. com; virginity; visibility; visual arts; wikipedia. org; youth
DATE: 5 March 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Rachel and Stacey talk about identifying as asexual.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: OK, so I'm Rachel and I identify as asexuals. Um, and I don't really have a romantic, um, orientation at the moment. I'm just not sure. Cool. And you, um I'm Stacey. I identify as asexuals, and I kind of don't care about the romance thing. Um, what does asexuals mean to you? It means to me that I don't have any sexual attraction to anyone, regardless of gender or how [00:00:30] they identify themselves as, um, sometimes I will feel like an aesthetic attraction to them. Like, this person is really hot, But I won't ever feel a need for sex. And I don't think I ever have. I don't think you could have described it, to be honest. Um, and you talked before about romantic attraction. Do you think that that is closely tied to sexual attraction? No, not [00:01:00] necessarily. No. Intimate and erotic are two totally different things they can be, but they can also be quite close as well. To me, romance is intimate and sex is erotic. But sex can also be intimate, you know. Do you think that you would even be interested in romance? Maybe it would depend on the person. Um, I'd need to have a very strong friendship with them before I consider it a romance. So, yeah, would that, um, fall [00:01:30] under the head of Demi Romantic or Yeah, maybe. Can you guys to find Demi. Romantic, please. Um Well, Demi is basically if you need to have a strong relationship with them as in friendship, before you consider going any further, So does that apply to romance? And some people at six. I probably wouldn't I I don't know. It would really depend on the person. [00:02:00] Um, yeah. How has, um, how have people reacted to you coming out as asexuals? Um, my my mom kind of She doesn't believe that I'm asexuals. She just thinks that I put a label on myself because everyone else is, um and that hurt a little, I guess. But, you know, that's what she thinks. Um, I haven't [00:02:30] told my dad yet. Um, but you know, everyone else I've told taken it really well, So he gave me Have those been people primarily within queer communities or more general mainstream, Um, primarily from the queer community. Um, yeah, yeah. Um, I haven't strictly come out. I have told my friends that I'm sexual but I haven't used that term with my parents. I've [00:03:00] said I'm not interested in sex and my mom doesn't understand that. But I think that's just more because she likes sex. So she thinks everyone else should, too. I don't really talk about that with my dad. That would just be awkward. Do you think there's a difference between being not interested in sex and being asexuals? Um, yeah, they can be. I think, like I don't feel sexual attraction to anyone I don't like. Look at I If I see someone who's attractive, I won't [00:03:30] think I could have sex with them. Some people could go. I will have sex, but I don't want to. I'm not interested in it. I don't feel that at all. So that yeah, that's a lot of Yeah. Do you think, um, coming out as asexuals to people who are in more mainstream rather than in queer communities would be easier than, say, coming out as another type of, um, sexuality? Um, I think it would be easier to explain [00:04:00] to people because the definition, um of asexuals, like, not interested in sex, whereas I think that you kind of have to go more in depth with other things. See, I, I disagree with that. I've had so much trouble explaining to mainstream people that aren't as and that means I'm not interested in sex. [00:04:30] I don't feel sexual attraction because people here are asexuals and they think, Oh, you're just you don't want to have sex. And then the next question I always get is what if you meet someone who wants to have sex with you and I say no II, I don't feel sexual attraction, so I wouldn't want to have sex with them. They have to understand that. But people just keep pressing like the idea that if you meet someone who want and you really like them possibly love them. But they want [00:05:00] to have a sexual relationship with with you, would you do it for them? And I always say, No. But no one seems to understand that. So yeah, it's it's hard. Do you know how many other people who identify as asexuals I've met a couple of people? Um, Stacey is probably the only one I know closely. What about you? Ray is the only one I know. Yeah, um what about online? I've seen quite a few of the people who I follow on Tumblr are asexuals Tumblr. [00:05:30] Tumbler's a blogging website. Um, so, yeah, it's got pictures and people talk about things and there's a quite a strong, um, queer community on there, and it's it's interesting to see other other asexuals stories and how they match up. And it's nice to know that there are other people out there who who feel the same way with me. Um, So what sort of age did you start thinking about asexuality? Um, about maybe three years ago. So about 15, [00:06:00] Um, I never felt attraction to anyone, but I didn't know what the label was. Um, I figured I was probably straight for a long time. And then after a while I thought maybe I was buying because girls are hot, too. Then I was like, I don't know. I got no clue. Everyone's hot. Um, but I don't want to have sex with them. And it was only a couple of years ago, Um, the last couple of years that I actually heard the term asexuals and I had to do some research and [00:06:30] figure out what that was and that worked was it something that when you have the time and did the research, it sort of clicked automatically. Yeah, definitely. It was all like, 00, OK, that is actually an option. You don't have to feel attracted to people. That's that's awesome. Yeah. Was it difficult for you, Uh, both of you realising that you were as do you think? Very. Especially when in our age group girls [00:07:00] were going out, they were experimenting, People were coming out, they were having sex and I just couldn't do it. It wasn't interesting. I didn't want to have anything to do with it. And yeah, that made me feel slightly different or wrong, but yeah, I. I used to think there was something wrong with me because I didn't want to get a boyfriend or a girlfriend. I didn't want to have sex. I just wasn't interested, I guess, [00:07:30] um And then when I realised that asexuality was a thing and it was possible and it was ok to not want to do everything that everyone else is doing and II I guess I not explain this very well. Um but it it it helped. It was it was nice knowing that there was a thing I could attribute to myself. [00:08:00] Do you feel like there is a space for you as asexuals within the queer community? Sometimes, um, most of the people I've met in the queer community are OK with it. They're really cool. But then you do get people who are a bit like, Well, it's not a real sexuality. It's it is a lack of Yeah, it's you sort of feel invisible, because when they talk of the queer community, people think gay, lesbian, bi trans. [00:08:30] And I'm not part of that. I'm just always been a girl. Always will be. But I don't feel attraction to anyone. And technically, that makes me queer. But a lot of the time, I don't feel like I'm part of the queer community because of that. Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel like, um, because the queer community is one [00:09:00] which is historically very focused on, um, sexual freedom and and liberation of, um, ideas, sexual ideas, You know, that might necessarily be normal to society. It is very sex focused. Does that ever make you feel uncomfortable? Yes. Yes. Because I, I don't the thing I'm I'm not a sexual being, I don't do that. And so, [00:09:30] like, yes, other people do, and I'm cool with that. But I'd like to be represented, too, as someone who doesn't need that. Yeah, like I'm happy to, you know, support them in whatever they want to do. But there's not really a way that we can be. I've just forgotten the word. Um, it's like if we are, um, represented. That's the word. There's not really a way we can be represented in the queer community because [00:10:00] it's it is very sex freedom focused. And but part of our sexual freedom is that we don't want sex. Kind of, you know, we need we need that to be acknowledged that the fact that we're allowed not to feel sexual attraction based on what can the community do to create a safer space for AEX identified people? Um, maybe you don't [00:10:30] Don't ask the question, you know, But what if you meet someone you just haven't met the right person. Please. That's irritating. Sorry. Yeah. Um, it's just respecting the fact that while other people do have sex, we don't and we don't really need to hear. And and a lot of the time there is a lot of Well, maybe you just haven't made up your mind yet. Maybe you haven't met the right person? No, we're usually quite clear about it. And [00:11:00] and just respecting that that, you know, we've made our decision. Do you ever find that at, um, queer events and spaces like say, um, out in the square? They have, uh, lots of condoms and they have lots of lube. And then and they make a big deal about, um, making sex easy to talk about. And it's a bit awkward for us. It's like, Well, that doesn't tie to us. So [00:11:30] maybe we could have some things that talk about other things as well. I mean, it's nice that they're trying to make sex a normal thing to talk about. That's good. That's very good. Yeah, it's healthy. But there is such a thing as going too far and being too over the top about it, which I think we might slowly be getting that way sometimes, because they're trying to push the issue issue so much, I just If they're going to do that and push it, which is cool, [00:12:00] they've got to be able to also have represent representation for those who aren't part of it. How, um, could we What could we do to have that representation in our queer spaces? Ask a question. I don't know. Um, that just the idea of asexuality and grey sexuality needs to be pushed more. It needs to be advertised more. Can you define that term, grey? Sexuality. Um, so people who haven't quite decided, [00:12:30] maybe like asexuality is a very definite no sexual attraction. Um, while grey sexuality is maybe sometimes but not often generally leaning towards less rather than more Is, um, that term the same as grey asexuality? Yeah. They're used around the same same sort of subjects. Usually, Yeah. Um, do you think that [00:13:00] betrayal of as people in media is also important? Yes. Definitely. People need to realise that it's normal. Can you name an as person in a popular media? The only one I would know would is not act to actively said to be asexuals, but it's a pretty good representation of an asexuals relationship which is need and Chuck and pushing daisies, which is an older, older TV show. Yeah. What about you, Stacey? [00:13:30] I wouldn't be able to name anyone. How do you think that, um, as effectual people are portrayed in media like it broken? If they are, they'd be broken people, people who maybe have had some sort of sexual attack that have left them unable to have sex. It's It's Yeah, it's They're usually awkward, maybe outcasts. It's never a good [00:14:00] thing to not have sex underdeveloped mentally or something. Do you think it's important to have positive portrayal? Yes, definitely. Do you think that is because there are people who are growing up and us included, who see media, which has a lot to do with sex. And then there's nothing about existing without a sex drive about not feeling attraction to people that way. And if [00:14:30] there is, it's always negative. And that's really bad for your self esteem. When you're realising that maybe you don't feel sexual attraction, Um, so the idea that you you need someone like a role model and even if it's just a fictional character, a role model that's a positive asexuals character would be awesome. How do you think your experience of realising you are asexuals would have been different had there been representation in the media [00:15:00] of positive asexuals people. Well, because, like I said earlier, you know, I thought there was something wrong with me. Um, so if there had been a positive role model, I probably wouldn't have felt that because it would have been like, this is something that can actually happen but not have been more comfortable with it a lot sooner. And also that people would be a bit more comfortable with the fact that that's my sexuality. Um, like I wouldn't maybe wouldn't get as much questions about Well, what if I find [00:15:30] the right person all of the sort of really uncomfortable questions you get? Because it would be something that's accepted, or at least something that's known more broadly? And you might not get those those jokes about, you know, being a plant and stuff. I've had a couple of those, um, because the plants produce asexuality. So it's Yeah, yeah, um, someone might argue that, uh, there are lots of characters in the media whose sexualities [00:16:00] aren't discussed, and people that they may or may not have sex with aren't mentioned, and so that is representation. How would you respond to that? That's more not bringing it up. That's that's see, that's not even people. People tend to assume that until said otherwise, the character is straight. So if you're going to have a gay character in a TV show, they will say it. But if you're going [00:16:30] to have an asexuals character, they won't. They'll just not mention it at all. And that's not representation that's skating over the issue and ignoring it. So we need characters that are said to be asexuals. They identify as as sexual. And that's Canon and that canon canon it's in the show. It's been or book or whatever it's been put in there. And it's been It's obvious it's proven by the [00:17:00] awful creator to be true to the story. Um, yeah, and we need characters like that that are asexuals and in an ideal world, what would the process of realising you're asexuals and coming out be like or be different to how it was for you? Um, people wouldn't feel pressured to have sex. Um, there's there's a lot of pressure towards having relationships, especially early on, um, when you're a teenager there, there's a lot of [00:17:30] encouragement to experiment, to go out, get a boyfriend, get a girlfriend, and those ages are just getting younger and younger every year, you know? Yeah. And so there needs to be also the sort of realisation that you don't have to do that, and that's OK, That's fine. Um, which isn't really there at the moment. What can we do to try and make the world more like that ideal world you just described? Put it in. [00:18:00] I want to say Put it in the media. But don't hide it from the world. Kind of like make it obvious that it's OK, but it's not a big deal. How can we do that? Um, there needs to be more representation. There needs to be. Schools need to be teaching about sexualities. And it can't just be the main like gay by straight. It has to be all the minorities, and that includes asexuality. How was your experience in school being taught about sexuality? We [00:18:30] didn't do it. We didn't learn about a sexuality. As in our orientation, we learned about sex. We learned about sex. Sort of. We learned about learned about, um, straight. Yeah, we learn about straight. We learned about, you know, the we hardly touched on female genitalia, so it would be nice to bring that in properly. Um, you know, we weren't told about the female orgasm. Um, am I right in saying that you went [00:19:00] to a girls school? Yeah, Yeah, we went to an all girls school. Um, and, you know, we were taught all about how the guys did everything taught how to put a condom on a Penis. Was that a difficult experience for you? Yeah, it was awkward. It was I. I didn't want to be doing that. And it was, Well, the whole class made it into a joke, of course, but, yeah, year nine girls, You would expect it. But [00:19:30] it was all like, Well, I don't feel comfortable doing this. Um, it was one of those realisations that maybe I'm not straight. Yeah, we didn't do at all. Um, we didn't learn about these men or gays or bisexuality or Trans. We didn't learn about any of those. So if they're not being represented, then there's no chance at all of the smaller minorities like asexuality [00:20:00] being represented. Even if it wasn't mentioned in health, I mean, they could start bringing it in and psychology? Maybe, if I do do psychology. Um, yeah. I. I did half a year of it. It's more than me. I did a week. Um, but it, you know, even if they start bringing in the, you know, maybe it's a choice thing, you know, talking about hormones in the brain or something and how it could [00:20:30] possibly affect your sexuality. Um, and bring it in that way and then move it across, because then they you know, then it's at least in there, and some people are learning about it. Yeah, so? Well, it it took the internet and self research for me to find out about the queer community at all. Um, so it it does need to be represented, Represented, represented. Sorry. Then, um, then [00:21:00] it is. And it needs to be all of the minorities you talked about, Um, the internet as a helpful resource for you realising that you're as do you think that's true for, um, other as people as well? Well, I think it's some. I think it's some place that's got a lot of easily accessible information. Um, you know, it's a place where you can type in asexuality and everything will come up Wikipedia is your friend [00:21:30] Wikipedia is. Have you ever edited the Wikipedia article on asexuality? I haven't. But I have gone through it, though. Really? OK? Yeah. No, I tried to edit a different page and they shut me down. So yeah, that's this pretty good Wikipedia page. What other resources did you find helpful? Um, just forums and blogs that had people talking about their experiences. Actually, I remember reading an article once [00:22:00] That was on an online newspaper that had an asexuals woman and a gay man in a relationship. And it was they were just a romantic couple, but neither of them were attracted to each other. And that was another one of those real moments where I just realised that's actually possible. Uh, you can have a romantic relationship with someone without being sexually attracted to them, reading out a significant moment. Definitely. Definitely. [00:22:30] Resources for me were pretty much the Internet and my friends, because quite a few of them realised their sexuality before I did. So I was able to ask some questions. I don't think half of them realised that's what I was doing. But you know, II, I think the most switched on ones realised what I was doing and helped how they could. So yeah, and had a lot of queer friends. Uh, yeah, um, more as we got into college [00:23:00] because, you know, they they were getting into their teen years and realising all this stuff, Um and, you know, being there as they realised and then either told me or I just found out they were dating someone that wasn't wasn't a guy. That there wasn't a guy because, you know, we went to an all girls school, so it was just like, Oh, OK, that that's OK. Whatever. Cool. Good. On you're happy. Um, and with [00:23:30] someone who I'm not going to say the name of, um they went through a realisation that they were, uh, Trans. And so being there for that journey with them and helping them research some things was was quite helpful in realising that you don't have to be straight, you know? Uh, yeah, that makes sense. My aunt is gay, so I always had that sort of figure that she was there, but she doesn't have a partner. So it took me a while to actually realise I think it was some quip [00:24:00] that my mother made about me turning into a lesbian. Um, vegetarian, like my aunt was like, Oh, really? Whatever. How do you think? Um, the process of coming out and realising would have been different Had you not had that queer influence in your formative, I probably would still have no idea. To be honest, I'd probably be trying to force myself into some sort of mould. Do you think that would be unhealthy? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. [00:24:30] Like I went through a relationship last year because I thought I had to, um and, you know, we got to I think the six month mark and you wanted to have sex, and I just wasn't interested. I just didn't want to, um and he thought that maybe I just wasn't ready, which was probably true at the time. And now it's like I just don't want to. That's not a drive. I feel it's not a need that I need to look into. Have you ever tried [00:25:00] to force yourself into a mould like that? No. I figured out quite quickly that I didn't want to date. Um, I didn't at that point realise that I wasn't sexually attracted to people. I just figured I didn't want to be in a relationship, so I held myself off from that. Um and I'm quite proud I did, but yeah. II. I look at people sometimes, and I'm like, maybe I should be doing that. Maybe I should be in a relationship. And then I'm like, [00:25:30] Do you think that, um, many as people do what you did state and try to force themselves to fit that mould? Yeah, because you know it is mainstream, and people these days want to be mainstream. They don't want to be the the person going in the opposite direction. Um, and so, you know, they they try to force themselves to do things that they don't want to do to fit in. And a lot of it's got a lot of pressure from [00:26:00] people around you as well, Like constant questions. Do you have a boyfriend yet or constantly talking about their sexual conquests and stuff? So you're just kind of like this is so uncomfortable. But my friends, I can't just leave And do you wish that there was a way, um, an easy way to tell someone that you are uncomfortable with a certain topic or Yeah, yeah. Um, do you find your friends, uh, particularly accepting of that Because you hang [00:26:30] out with other people? Yes. Definitely. Because they understand that. Well, I'm I am occasionally aesthetically attracted to someone I can recognise that someone's hot and yeah, that's cool. I won't feel sexual attraction to them. So when they're talking about things like that, I can sort of carry along with the fact that, yes, people are hot. I like hot people. That's about it. That's as far as I can go. Yeah, yeah. [00:27:00] Um, both of you are artists to an extent. Is that right? I am not really. I just really good for drawing because Ray is. And she likes to draw me. For some reason, she has a nice nose. Thanks, too. Um, do you find that having that perspective of being asexuals itself in your art? Um, there's a lot of pressure, especially when you're drawing cartoons. Is that people want you to [00:27:30] make the thing sexualized. There's there's an idea. Yeah, there's an idea for the male gaze or the female gaze, and I can't do that. I'm We're not the other way around. When when I draw, I don't generally draw for people I draw for me. So it's not going to be based on their sex. It's gonna be based on pretty things like he and clothes. Um, if you could [00:28:00] say something to all of, um, mainstream society regarding asexuals people, what would that be? We exist, we exist, and you need to know it. Um, don't make fun of us for not feeling sexual attraction. Um, it is our choice. It is what we are. And you can't change it no matter what. You can't change it. No matter how many questions you ask, no matter how many people you shove in our face, [00:28:30] Yeah, Not going to change. Understand this, please. Yeah, no. No matter how many like, oh, we'll get over it or you're just not ready yet. It's who we are, and that needs to be accepted. Um, another thing with asexuality is, you know, the the whole virginity thing. Because since we don't have sex, we're still virgin social construct. Um and you know, so people are always surprised when [00:29:00] they realise that I've got to 18 and never had sex, because people are losing it. So young, and it's it's OK to even if you're not as to wait until you're sure you want to have sex. You know, don't just go into it because you feel you have to and everyone else is. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So, yeah, I'm supportive of everyone. Um, what would you say to parents of people whose Children are going through that realisation and coming [00:29:30] out process support us? You know, we we're no different. We're still your kids. Um, it doesn't change who we are. All it changes is you might not be getting grandchildren any day soon. Do you think that's something that a lot of, uh, parents of teenagers are? Um, probably not. Um, there is still kind of the subconscious thing of passing the genes on, so I think that's possibly driving a little bit of the [00:30:00] lack of support, you know, because if I can't get grandkids from you, then I don't, you know, blah, blah, blah, and it's Yeah, it's not healthy. Yeah, um, I'll just say, but it's it's not unnatural or anything. Um, we need the support. Because if our parents say that this is not who you should be, it sticks a lot better. A lot harder [00:30:30] than if it was just anyone. Anyone else? A random stranger. So we need our parents saying it's OK to be asexuals. Um, you said before your message to more mainstream people, would that be different? That message talking to the generalised queer community? Um, no, No, probably not. We we need to be represent, represented, represented that word because I think we are such [00:31:00] a minority inside the queer community. I'm not sure how large the AEX community is inside it, but it feels tiny. It feels absolutely nonexistent. Yeah. Um, yeah, we feel invisible is the thing is that do you think having asexuals within the queer community would help? It would help. It would be really good to be able to meet other people that are as, um to know that we're not alone. Um, yeah, yeah, representation. [00:31:30] And just generally feeling accepted by the other people in the queer community because you know it, it takes a lot to come out and and they understand that. So it would just be nice to get that same understanding from them. And when we come out, we don't want to be questioned it like no one wants to be questioned. But for asexuals, it seems to happen more often than not, [00:32:00] is it? Are you sure? Yeah. Maybe you're not ready yet. Maybe you haven't chosen. And that's really upsetting. What can we as queer people do to help make the path for coming out by as people easier support us be accepting? Yeah, that's that's all I can think of. Just support so much support and so much representation. And finally, if you could say anything to young people or or not necessarily [00:32:30] young people who are going through the process of realising and coming out as asexuals, what would that be? You are not alone. There are other people who are like you. There are other people who feel like you, and you can find them if you try. Um, coming out to your friends is always the hardest thing. Um, but do it when you're ready. Do it when you feel comfortable. Um, don't start off with a big group. Just come out to [00:33:00] one person. Um and hopefully they accept you for who you are, and that'll make it easier. They might surprise you.

IRN: 785
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ATL REF: OHDL-004292
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089586
TITLE: Steve McVey profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Steve McVey
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Casper's Bar and Cafe; London; Lost (2014); Steve McVey; The Regents Canal; United Kingdom; Wellington; arts; boarding school; bullying; coming out; creativity; diversity; family; gay; homophobic bullying; loss; parents; photography; school; single sex schools; sport; study; travel; visual arts
DATE: 8 March 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Steve talks about his photography and latest project Lost.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I grew up. I'm from New Zealand and I. I grew up in the hut. Uh, went to Saint Pat's Silver Stream. Yeah. Then I moved to London. Well, I actually moved to Auckland in 95 and then London in 97. And why did you move to London? Um, at the time, I mean, I was really interested in photography then, but there was, um I just had really itchy feet, you know, it was time to time to get out kind of thing. And also, at the time there wasn't They didn't feel like there was a lot [00:00:30] going on in photography or in the arts. Really? Um, you know, if you wanted it felt like you. If you wanted to do something in the arts, then you had to leave. Which I'm please, isn't the case anymore? Before you left New Zealand, were you out? Yes. I came out when I was 17. My coming out story is pretty funny. When I when I told my mom her her response was Does this mean you wear dresses, Which is, you know, um which is kind of funny, but, you know, also shows [00:01:00] the kind of level of, um, in its purest sense with the kind of generation of difference. You know, Um um, But it came about because, um, I was with a boyfriend, and we were getting kind of serious. And so I had to tell people I felt like I had to tell people for you is, uh, gay as homosexuality. Is it a kind of a A big issue. I mean, did you have kind of issues Kind of like coming out? Or was it pretty straightforward? Oh, no. I had big reservations about coming [00:01:30] out. I mean, I went to Catholic, you know, boarding school. I was a day boy at a boarding school. And so you know that that wasn't the most conducive relationship for any kind of sexual difference. Or, you know, um, gender issues, But, um, so there was lots of lots of, um, issues around it, which is another reason why I had to feel like I had to leave, you know? I mean, it was pretty. It wasn't the greatest school experience. I mean, it was a big kind of boys culture with, um, [00:02:00] you know, everyone had to play rugby. And, you know, I just didn't really fit in there. Bit of bullying. And yeah, it wasn't It wasn't great, was it? Homophobic, bullying or just bullying and homophobic bullying and any kind of any kind of bullying. The difference was kind of noticed. How did you cope with it? Um, I kind of went well. I was at the time. I was also, I was doing a lot of sports. And so I was I represented [00:02:30] New Zealand in, um, gymnastics and trampoline. And so I kind of invested all of my energy in that and kind of lost myself on that and also art at school. And so that was a real really good outlet for me at the time. So you left New Zealand for London. What was that, like, Kind of leaving New Zealand and and being kind of in a in a different environment? Um, it was really Well, it was exciting, but, you know, I mean, all of my all of my references from [00:03:00] London were pretty much, um, based on films I'd seen. And so, you know, the reality is a lot different. And so it was a real shock landing there, but, um um yeah, it was a It was a big shock getting there, but it was, you know, it was amazing. So what did you think you were going to, um, some sort of version of 100 and one Dalmatians. Yeah. Um, and and And also, I wasn't I didn't really plan on staying there. [00:03:30] I kind of, you know, had enough money to catch a train around Europe and just kind of that ran out and so didn't speak any other languages enough to be able to live there at the time. So, um, landed back in London. Can you compare what it was like as a as a young gay man say in New Zealand to that of when you kind of landed in London? Um, I, I would say that just it was the, um the acceptance of diversity was and and not and that applies across the board with [00:04:00] all kind of, um any anyone different really is. But I mean, I went straight and worked in cafes and bars and SoHo and so as you know, I think I think on a level I really I wanted to belong somewhere. And so that was what I'd heard was a place that would, you know, could be very accepting a commun, you know, a whole community that would be very accepting. And so not just pockets. You know, it was a whole district, almost. And so, um, when I when I think of the when I think of the difference, [00:04:30] um, yeah, I think of I suppose I can equate it to, you know, going out. Really? Because that was how I kind of that was how I socialised when I first, you know, that's how I met other gay people. That's how I identified with people. And so I think about where I went to in in Wellington, which was Caspers. You know, I remember going two years later. I was going to I remember going into SP QR. I think I don't know if you know if that still exists and then [00:05:00] going into London, and there's just a myriad of different kind of places you can go to for different kind of subcultures within gay culture, which is really, um, you know, it feels like, um, you know, there's a whole smorgasbord of things to do people to meet and, you know, trouble to get into which is you know, really exciting for a teenager, because at the time in Wellington what? There was literally one or two bars, wasn't there? Yeah, I think there was [00:05:30] I I knew kind of in a kind of very scared way, ran into Caspers one time and then ran out again. That was kind of my experience of Caspers, but, you know, that was it. So So why, that kind of scared us going to? Well, just because it was it was also foreign to me. You know what I mean? I knew I identified with being gay, but I had no education at all on what being gay was all about. There was nothing, you know, no education in school or parents or, you know, no role models. So what kind of education [00:06:00] in London? In terms of the kind of gay side of things? Immersion? No, I mean, I met. You know, I met a lot of different people from different kind of walks of life. And also, um, I I, um I was working. I could I could have either come back to New Zealand and and studied or stayed there, and I wasn't quite finished travelling and So, I. I, um, started working for an airline and then studied on my days off, so I could kind of, you know, kill two [00:06:30] birds kind of thing. And I met a lot of gay people through that industry as well. The kind of travel industry which is in, you know, crew, which is a whole other thing. And the study. This is studying photography. Yeah, I studied first at city and guilds and then University of Westminster. Why Photography? Um, I think it's got I thought about this recently, actually. And I think it's got something to do with, um [00:07:00] observing. I like observing, and I can still be a part of what is going on, but there is a kind of safe distance with the camera between me and the, you know, the action, Um, and also that I find that photography helps me find order and what's going on around me because it literally frames what is going on. And so, you know, um, the experience can [00:07:30] be reflected on in a physical way. Can you describe your photographic eye? I mean, what what What are the things that you you look for? Um, I, uh I like finding, um I want to say it's kind of glibly as, like, order in the chaos, but I like finding kind of beauty or, um, transforming a kind of banal into the [00:08:00] sublime, if you like, like, um, the everyday into something extra extraordinary. What would be an example? Like a brick wall, for instance, Um, and looking at the patterns within it and the the shadows that it casts and the the, um, kind of like anthropological markings that people have made on them. And, um, you know, things like that [00:08:30] kind of like a a piece and and the kind of all that kind of tension that happens around public space. What about some of the techniques that you are using in in kind of capturing images? I'm thinking of What? What are your thoughts on things like, say, light and shadow? Um, I don't I don't like to use any artificial light. Really. All of the photography that I do is ambient, ambient, ambient light. And, um, I don't really like post production. I mean, I don't [00:09:00] I'm not against it. It's just not something that I I find satisfying with photographic process. It's, um You know, I remember doing some night exposures not long ago. And they were, um, you know, up to 56 minute exposures because it was so dark. Um, and so you know, II, I like that kind of like that yellowy orange hue that happens in that kind of environment. Um, I tend to use colour [00:09:30] a lot. I just think it's I mean, I know that no photography is a document of truth or anything, you know, as simple as that. But I find it represents more truthfully, a perception of what happened. I did. I did. I started off taking black and white photography as a kind of, um, I don't know when I was learning more about the technical side of photography and doing my own printing and things like that, um, but [00:10:00] kind of went into colour photography and kind of got introduced more into the theoretical side of visual, you know, do you think studying something like photography kind of helps or hinders the kind of creative process? I think it's one. It's it. That's a Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, one of it's definitely one of those things where, um, sometimes It's like when you look at the moon and you have that wonder [00:10:30] about it. And then as soon as you go there, you know it inside out. And so the wonder is gone. And so there is an element of that. But then, you know, there is also, um, that you know that it can be that can be changed as well. You can use those tools to to create something else in a in a bizarre way, studying something so intensely. Does it alter your kind of love for the for the medium, Or, [00:11:00] I mean, do I mean do you still find that you get excited by photography? Yeah, I do. I love it. I. I really love it. It it it it is really exciting, You know, I it it frustrates me when I see images. Things that I don't like as much. You know, there's that kind of, um or, um maybe things that I don't feel like it conceptually sound, you know, Um, but III I love it. I love it. And it still it still excites me. [00:11:30] Definitely. Yeah. What are your thoughts on using, um, digital verse analogue film cameras. Well, I've got. I've got a like a selection of cameras and, you know, my favourite camera to use is a, um, medium format camera. And so when I can afford film, that's what I use, which isn't very often. And so it's, um, just for economic reasons, really. I use, um, digital a lot more now, Do you find there's a difference in quality in terms of digital vs film? [00:12:00] Uh, you can They can be, Yeah, I mean less and less. So now I mean, I've yeah less and less so, but there is a there is a difference. And also there's some sort of there's a there's some sort of craft. Um, I mean, when I first started studying photography, digital didn't really exist, you know? And so there was a real craft attached to it, and that's what I kind of learned first was the craft side of it. And so, um, yeah, I've got a kind of nostalgic, [00:12:30] nostalgic attachment to film, I guess, because I guess there are all those things of like, um with digital that you can shoot hundreds of images and then pick the best aware, I guess, with film, you know, you locked into only having, you know, 36 Nega negatives. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, I remember doing, um, shoot plan lists, and so I would, you know, um, be shooting AAA moving swing, and I'd have to, you know, have a couple of roles of films, so I'd have to plan each one. I'd write [00:13:00] down the ISO numbers and, you know, every all the different kind of, um, technical information and a little notebook and carry it around around with me. So when I got them printed, I knew what they were. And, you know, that kind of that kind of thing just doesn't happen now it's all listed there. You know, when you when you, um, upload your images or even when you take it, it shows it. So, um yeah, yeah, it's just a lot more immediate and a lot more disposable. Now I think there's less of a less. There's potentially. Well, there is less thought process involved [00:13:30] in taking photographs. Now, you mentioned briefly before about post production, and I'm wondering, do you when you when you're seeing an image through your viewfinder, are you framing it in the camera, or do you frame it afterwards in postproduction. I frame it in the camera. Yeah, yeah, especially with long exposures. You know, I like because I the the for me, it's the act of photo photographing. That's what I really like. And the the exhibiting of it is [00:14:00] is, um, my probably my least favourite element of the process. But it is a necessary one to kind of finish it off. You know, um, but, um, I like the process of taking that time to frame a shot and give the subject, you know, the attention that it deserves. You've recently had an exhibition at, um, the Regent's Canal. London. Yeah, tell me about that. Um, that was a project that I did when I was doing my masters at Goldsmiths. [00:14:30] And, um, it was a research, um, project I did on, uh, kind of try and an attempt to kind of reevaluate the socio-economic value of the canal and establish a new sense of worth social worth within it. Because I had such a I had a really complex and, um, interesting history. And it was at it and it, you know, a few years ago it was at a real [00:15:00] kind of turning point. And so I thought it was a necessary thing to kind of look at this and get its true worth. But at least at least look at it. If not kind of define it a seed for that kind of exhibition. Does it come as you take the photographs, or does it happen afterwards, or does it happen? Like right at the beginning before you've actually taken anything? Um, a bit of both, really. But kind of like things just evolve ideas. Kind of like pop in and out [00:15:30] of my head. And then they kind of, you know, I'll be II. I used to live on the I used to live on, um right on the canal and gains studios, Hitchcock or film studios. And so I used to go on the canal, you know, every day kind of thing. And so it was a you know, it was a part of my life in London, and I could see it changing, you know? So you know, hugely in the time that I lived there and, um, I just thought it was just such an, you know, amazing resource for London and something that's kind of neglected a lot of the time. And so, [00:16:00] um, and also under used, um, as a way to get around. You know, it's used for a lot of other purposes. Um, but, uh, yeah, under used or undervalued in a lot of ways. Do you carry a camera with you all the time? Um, I carry my phone camera on me now, but I used to Yeah, I used to. You know, my iPhone seems to do the trick for most things around at the moment. Or, you know, if I I'll, I'll take a photograph of something [00:16:30] with my iPhone and come back and then take a photograph with a you know, another camera because it sounds like a lot of the images that you're taking are, uh are quite fleeting, whether it's a a wall or the light hitting a particular object, Um, or I guess, your your your new project, which is lost. Yeah, which is a very different tact, actually. For me. Um uh, because a lot of I mean, a lot of my stuff in the past has been of that kind of [00:17:00] liminal space. I guess that we kind of pass through, but not really exist in and or or known really kind of really knows or connects with, You know, Um and so, um yeah, this lost project is very different, you know? I mean, it's not about that space. It's about the people who inhabit. Yeah. So what is lost? So, um, lost is a project. Um, I'm doing about how [00:17:30] people deal with loss in their lives and how also, they deal with, um, looking to fill that void of what is lost and whether that the act of looking for what is lost actually goes some way into filling what that void leaves. I mean, the the way that I mean, it's the the the way that I'm kind of approaching. It is looking at lost post posters that people look at, like bring it back down to it. Kind of real physicality. So [00:18:00] looking at the, um, lost posters that people leave around on lamp posts, which is a really unique thing, I think in, In, In, in Wellington, there's not many capital cities in the world that can have that have lost posters around that you know that people will walk, walk past and kind of thing. Oh, Yeah, that little puppy, you know, And so, um and so it it feels very local as well, Which I can I like after, you know, recently moving back and, um, and contacting these people and asking them, you know, certain questions about, [00:18:30] um, what was lost, how long they had it. And, um what, what what the loss of it means to them and whether the act of looking has done the thing, whether they found it, Um, whether whether, um, I think when people lose something, then there's a real danger of my, you know, mythologizing the thing. And so, um, if they do recover it again, does it live up to their expectations, which is another kind of, you know, angle. And but that would be a difficult thing [00:19:00] in this project is photographing what isn't there, in a way. So what are some of the things that have been lost that that that you found in terms of the posters? So, um, I've told a couple of friends about this as well, and, um, they've been amazing and like saying, Steve, Steve, you know, you've got to come to this poster at this place, you know, which is really It's really great, actually, but, um, there's been quite a few cuddly toys, um, cats, dogs. [00:19:30] Um, there was, um this wasn't a poster, but, um, someone lost a job. Um, and so you know, I. I mean, the the subject of loss, you know, losing things is universal. I mean, everyone has experienced it and, you know, to different degrees, you know, from the banal to the profound kind of loss. But each each circumstance is really personal, and so everyone can kind of relate to it on on some level, [00:20:00] Um, there was a poster for a missing person, and that was where I kind of had to really kind of think. OK, there is a universal subject here, you know, subject matter. But, um, where are my limits and this and so I think, you know, missing people, Although, yeah, that's a tricky one. Did you call up the number? No, no, no, no, not yet. I have it, but, um, [00:20:30] I don't know. I mean, I you know, I'm not approaching this in a trivial way at all, but I think when people go missing, there's there's, um of, you know, there's you know, it's It's pretty layered. And so I'm not quite sure. I think that might be 11 step too far for people. Hm? When you are calling people up, what are the reactions? How does that conversation go? Yeah, it's really interesting that there are people who, um [00:21:00] and I have to I've actually got a script that I write that I that I wrote, Um, because, you know, I have to mention the lost poster, and then they all of a sudden think that I might have information about the missing thing, and so I've got to pretty quickly give a quite a, you know, a really detailed background about me, what I'm doing and why I'm calling. And also say, you know, I'm sorry. I don't have any kind of leads on what's missing, [00:21:30] but I would like you to participate in this project, and, um and it's been really positive. Yeah. Generally, it's been positive. So what do you want from them? Um, some time. I mean, it's about an hour. It takes I would like to go from there to their house, interview them, ask, ask them the questions, ask, you know, um, answer their questions and also, um, photograph them and also the space where the thing [00:22:00] was and, um, and around the house, Yeah. What? What they, you know, kind of like, uh, where they spent time with the thing. And, um, kind of what markets left in their life. I wrote a kind of I wrote an essay the other day on photographing the missing, which is kind of really kind of interesting thing. And that kind of misnomer of the stillness of the image, Even though it's something, [00:22:30] it's so it's it's still it's so evocative and it can and so loaded, and I kind of can equate that to, um, photographing the missing. Have any of those situations unsettled you? Yeah. I mean, there. I mean, II. I can't I. I keep having second thoughts about the whole project. You know, it's not a pleasant subject, really. I mean, it's about people dealing with the loss of something, um, and so they're all quite kind [00:23:00] of unsettling, and they're also kind of. There's a lot of hope as well. So I you know, that's the That's the lasting impression. I wonder also if it's about the kind of, um, immediacy of your calling the person up. I'm thinking that it would be quite different if someone puts a poster and within a week you call them and then you do the same thing. But it's like, you know, three or four months down the track, Have you found? Yeah, I. I don't I. I wait. As soon as I see [00:23:30] it, I wait a bit. I've been waiting at least a month before phoning them, and sometimes the posters are gone in that time. But, you know, I've taken photographs of the posters. Um, because I think there's got to be for this project. There's got to be that a little bit of distance between, um, losing the thing and also a bit of perspective for them on how they've gone about filling it. If it's too soon, it's too raw for a start. And also, [00:24:00] um, they there's a potential to be just immersed in the loss rather than a perspective about their recovering it. And what kind of level of loss are we talking? I mean, are people really emotionally bound up on on the things that they've lost? Or is it quite I mean, um, people are emotionally tied up in these things, you know? And that's the whole That's the That's the point. You know, I don't think anyone would go to the lengths of looking for something [00:24:30] and, you know, making posters and putting them around town. If there there wasn't that kind of emotional attachment to the thing, given the fact that you are approaching them a certain distance after the event, have things been found or have they replaced those things? Yes. Yeah, they have been found. Um, and and that was why I was That was one of my one of the kind of one of my interest in this project is that Did they [00:25:00] make this a thing bigger than what it was when it was gone? Because, you know, when things are when there's a hole left by something, it's, um there's a danger that it can be. It's it's value or worth could be blown out of proportion. Or it's, um, you know, because it because it's so consuming. Um, there's a chance that, um, yeah, that kind of mythologizing of the thing could could happen. And if it if it then if it's then been recovered, [00:25:30] are they kind of like, you know, there's a potential for it to be for there to be disappointment. When you are going to people's houses, you're photographing the situations. But are you also doing kind of other recordings or other documentation? I have been doing a bit of tape recording of the conversation as well, but mostly it's notes as well. And that hasn't been consistent. So I I mean, I would like to I mean, ideally, I would have liked to have filmed filmed the whole meeting. Um and [00:26:00] I I'm still would like to do that. And so this will end up as a yeah, good question. I don't know. That's the thing. I mean, um, I know it could be a and also because the the the words the kind of interview, if you like, is really an important part of it for me. And so the words are really important, and it's important for me to show them and how it's how it's kind of published. And so um, [00:26:30] yeah, I don't I'm I'm not sure. I. I know it would be a great stills. Um, exhibition. Um but it could be a really interesting film as well, And also, you know, I think it could work in lots of formats as a book as well. How has this affected you? Um, I think it's really kind of It's I mean, well, I mean, I you know, I've had some big change in my life recently with moving from London to here and finishing jobs and a relationship [00:27:00] ending. And so, you know, there's, um um you know, I've experienced, um, quite, I wouldn't Yeah, you know, a certain amount of loss. And so it's been. And I think this is what's kind of sparked this interest for me in the first place, you know? And also, um, for the first time in a while, brought my attention back to people instead of space that people have it. So, um, yeah, and so it's been quite interesting to see how people deal with this deal [00:27:30] with loss, and so it's been kind of helpful. I don't know if it's been helpful, but it's definitely been cathartic, cathartic in the sense that we all experience this. You know, it's not a lonely thing. Yeah, how do you deal with loss? I? I interview other people about it.

IRN: 784
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/nxt14_youth_leaders_conference.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004291
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089585
TITLE: NXT:14 Youth Leaders Conference
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Bella Simpson; Duncan Matthews; Toni Duder
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bella Simpson; Dargaville; Duncan Matthews; NXT15 - LGBTIQ Youth Leaders Conference; NXT:14 Youth Leaders Conference; Northland; Rainbow Youth; Rule Foundation; Tabby Besley; Toni Duder; Welby Ings; youth
DATE: 9 February 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Participants at NXT:14 talk to Tabby Besley about what the conference meant to them. Delegates representing rainbow youth groups from New Zealand and the Pacific Islands came together in Auckland for three days (7-9 February 2014) of workshops and discussion.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um I'm Morgan and I came from Australia, and then I moved to New Zealand. Now in Auckland. Um, yeah. Are you part of any of the quit youth groups? Uh, yes, I am a part of Rainbow Youth. Why have you come to the conference? Uh, because I run a group with Rainbow Youth and I want to be a youth worker when I've finished studying. So coming here was just a good idea, I guess. What are some of the biggest issues you see facing, um, our rainbow communities in New Zealand? [00:00:30] Um, definitely funding would be one of the biggest ones. Also lack of education in the school system and around the just general community of, um, Auckland. Do you see any solutions to that, Or have you heard any ideas over the Ah, yes. I've heard the Ram Ram Youth is doing a big care package type of thing for gender, which will be sent around once it's all done. And that sounds so exciting. Cool. Why do you think it's important? Um, to have events like this and be at this conference? [00:01:00] Definitely for networking and just making friends and finding out who's what and what they can do and who can help and how you can help and finding out that you've got your own skills there, too. Have you had any inspirational moment? Um, yes, I just did. The trans and intersex human rights, um, workshop, which was awesome. Um, so many great ideas. So many people. Uh, yeah. I'm Bella. Um, I came up from Wellington. [00:01:30] Um, I'm openly transgender. Um, yeah. Why did you come to the conference? Um, because there's some really good speakers, and the Youth leadership Conference and youth leadership conferences are always really good. So the speakers and yeah, what do you want to get out of the company? Um, new skills and knowledge. And, um, I wanted to talk to the politicians with the, um [00:02:00] with and see what their policies were and what sort of their thoughts were and stuff. What do you see as some of the biggest issues facing, um, Rainbow people in New Zealand? Um, for transgender kids in schools, schools just aren't safe at the moment. Um, schools think that they're supporting students when they're not really their, um, idea of support isn't what it's not. It's not great. And yeah, What solutions do you see for that? Um, [00:02:30] I see there needs to be a group of people and transgender students, um, talking about their experiences and where they where the schools have gone wrong. And, um, and how we can go about resolving these issues. And there is always a simpler situation, but the schools just get lazy and don't want to explore those different options. So why is it important that this conference is happening? Um, it's important that this conference is happening [00:03:00] because it gets those discussions up and running and then especially because there's people from the US. So then it just links us a little bit more to the US and getting these people from the island. So we're all sort of linking with these big discussions. So, have you had any inspirational moments? Um, just meeting new people, just constantly meeting new people all the time. And you think you've met everyone, but then you just meet more people. You know, I'm [00:03:30] a youth mentor for Waikato Queer Youth. We're based in Hamilton. Uh, we have we are a support network for, um, queer and queer friendly youth. Um, under 25 or 30 I think it's 30 now, actually, Um and I'm fairly new. I'm just trying to learn the ropes and find out a bit more about the issues facing our community. And so I've come to the conference and yeah, it's pretty pretty awesome. Cool. What do you want to get out of the conference? Um, a better understanding of where our community community is heading and what I can do about [00:04:00] it. What do you see as some of the biggest issues facing our community? Uh, the glossing over of the the TT Q I of of the the spectrum and the other, the other identities that aren't actually sort of recognised in that. What solutions do you see to that, um, getting out there and talking about it. Really? Um, why do you think the conference is important? Because it brings together a lot of people for networking, and, uh, a lot of people are learning new things. Um, I wouldn't know about several [00:04:30] things or me. All of these amazing people if I hadn't have come here. Have you had any inspirational moment? Um, yeah. Listening yesterday to Sam was pretty incredible. He his story was fantastic. Seeing coming from one person to thousands was was incredible. I'd love to affect that kind of change. Cool. Can you tell us a little bit about what Sam talked about? So he talked about the how the earth quakes. Uh, a couple of years ago, they created a student [00:05:00] army and brought together a whole lot of people with a common cause. Um, and created, um, this network of to, um, help out and create and no commitment. Just come and pick up a shovel and a wheelbarrow and day in, day out, and you just just help. Why did you come to the conference? I come here because I see a lot of opportunities here. Um, sharing with other friends here. This is the first time that I heard a lot of term, uh, terminologies for [00:05:30] other kinds. No offence, but yeah. So what have you got out of it? Um, some some people, I mean, some friends here we have, we have kind of like a similar issue when we start to be, like, different from other people. Different in a good way. Not a bad way. What are some of the biggest issues you see facing our rainbow community. Um, maybe another [00:06:00] because, um, in the Pacific, Uh, especially for gay and lesbian. It's really, really, really hard to to tell people that Oh, I'm gay. Uh, I'm lesbian because of our culture and tradition are very strong, um, and also Christianity. So it is really hard. People might think that I might say, um, bad stuff. They might discriminate us. And you know what I mean? Do you see any solutions? [00:06:30] Maybe we can talk to our family members sharing them exactly who we are telling them what we are and what we want to do. This is how we live life. Why do you think this conference is important? I think it's important because it is. This is the first time that, um, gay lesbian, whatever kind of minor, um, diversity [00:07:00] actually come out. And it's good in a way so that people will know there are other people that have their own needs and they want to live life that like them. Um, And have you had any inspirational moments while you've been here? The only thing that inspires me here is, um, as from the Pacific, we I believe we finally have a chance to talk with other sisters or brothers here sharing them our story. I believe that ours is different [00:07:30] from them. We have different needs. So it's about time for, uh, for for or whatever people call us to share to share our sisters and brothers here who we are. This is what we do. And we are proud to be like this. Um uh, um I live [00:08:00] in Auckland, and I was born in, um and I'm with Rainbow Youth. Why did you come to the conference? Well, I just moved to Auckland recently and just got involved in Rainbow Youth. Um, and I saw that this was coming up, and I really love conferences and meetings and things. And so I was, Yeah, pretty excited about it. What did you get out of the conference? Oh, well, I kind of realised [00:08:30] how isolated I was and how all the ideas that I've been having, like by myself that all like happening like in community. Um, and I and I felt connected, Like to the past as well. I think I kind of found my calling, actually, um what do you see as some of the biggest issues facing our rainbow communities. Um, well, I'm quite interested in the attitude of churches towards, um [00:09:00] um LGBT Q. I, um, people, Um uh, so that's what, like, that's my focus. I wanna, you know, for at least us to at least be able to come out in church and know that we're not going to be like ostracised or anything, because that's probably a lot of where the homophobia is in New Zealand Now, in the churches, Do you see any solutions to that? [00:09:30] Um, well, I'm only just starting to come out in my own church. I'm Catholic. Um, I think that that once I start like, being open about who I am, then like, I think things will start happening from from that. Why do you think this conference is important? Well, obviously, you need to get people together, um, talking about solutions in different areas because, you know, there's always, like, different people [00:10:00] on a team and like different problems and but like like they said at the conference, like and I see this also that one of the big problems in New Zealand is you have, like, services here and there, but it, like, really depends on where you grow up and like, I didn't really have anything when I was at school. Um, and it's kind of similar with, like with, like, gay Christians as well. You know, like you need to have something consistent like throughout [00:10:30] the country so that, like young, gay people like, can look and see where to go and, like, not just be a matter of chance. Um, and did you have any inspirational moments that stood out? Well, I just said so many inspirational moments that I Yeah, I couldn't even really pinpoint anything. Um, I have links to a few Polynesian roots, but majority, it's just Melanesian for me. [00:11:00] I refer to myself as a as a young, transgender woman, feminist activist, gender advocate and a woman's human rights defender. I also refer to myself as an aspiring criminal, constitutional human rights lawyer and a politician. Why have you come to the conference? This conference plays a pivotal role for the movement, not just back at home in Fiji, but for the Pacific. It links solidarity, and it also provides the the chance to channel discussions and to [00:11:30] localise in information to best suit the various constituents and to work on the communication strategies to best, um, build capacity and boost the movement we are in right now. What do you see as some of the biggest issues facing our rainbow community? There's a lot of intersectionality. Um, there's also a lot of, um um funding, um, problems. And, uh, I think it's very important in in youth leadership forums that young people are asked [00:12:00] to sort of be part of drafting proposal, um, mechanisms. And there should be some sort of, um, manual that should allow young people to utilise and and best work on it to improve the scenario and especially the risk management and quitting, which is the main part. Another big issue is the internalised homophobia that I see. And I think it's important that the gay movement needs to start standing together. And if they're speaking the language, they have to speak [00:12:30] it in unity. Um, because of this spectrum we're in, there's a need to to just identify people self as who they are with respect to their personal security. Why do you think this conference is important? This conference paves the way for young people that identify themselves as leaders. It provides the platform to take ownership, to allow people to exercise their civil and political rights. I mean, not just to speak out, but to be more articulate. [00:13:00] And the one reason I say this is because a lot of times in the gay movement, a lot of people are coming out and expressing themselves through hate, speech and freedom of opinion and the right to speak is not about hate speeches. There are ways that we need to strategize and communicate the information we want to disseminate, and that should be done in a very peaceful transition. Um, I am Tony. Obviously I come from Darville Northland, but I am working for Rainbow Youth right now in Auckland, and I'm [00:13:30] having an absolute blast, and it's the best thing ever. Yeah. Why did you come to the conference? Um, I came to the conference because I think of myself as a leader in this community, and I really, really, really love affecting change and being with people who are inspiring and awesome and similar to me. And it has just been an absolutely amazing experience, and I can't even explain it. It's so cool. What did you get out of the comfort colour. Um, well, I, I, like, cried at Welby's, um, speech about [00:14:00] our history. It was just so moving. I'm getting, like, tearing up talking about it. So I was just so blown away by everyone's passion and by the amount of willingness to act that's in our community and how I've always known that us young folk, you know, our generation has has got the, you know, the drive to do this stuff. And it's just amazing to see it actually there. Yeah, what do you see as some of the biggest issues facing our rainbow communities? Definitely. Like making sure that our, um, trans, [00:14:30] um, section is is and our gender queer and our you know, that they're really represented really well as strongly as our lesbian, gay, bisexual handex, um, members as well and also connecting with and making sure that our Pacific Maori people in our community are really, really represented. That's that's definitely one of the big aims that's come out of the conference for me. Do you see any solutions to that learning change? Um, education, not being scared to to say you don't [00:15:00] know and like asking people to share their info and to Yeah, really? Just collaborate. Yeah. Why do you think this conference is important? Like I said before, it brings together amazing, diverse group of people with, uh, one really one cause, which is to make sure that our future is better than what happened in the past. So I think that's so important and so amazing. Yeah. Um and have you had any inspirational moments that have really stood out? Just, uh the well we thing comes. So his [00:15:30] talk just blew me away and really made me humbled and proud to be part of this community and to be caring for a legacy that comes from pain and suffering and is going towards pride and joy and rainbows and glitter. Yeah. Thank you very much. Very welcome. Who are you and where did you come from? I'm Duncan. I get to work at Rainbow Youth as well as the general manager, which is awesome. I got involved with Rain Youth when I moved to Auckland 4. 5 years ago. And before that, I was involved [00:16:00] in uni and Hamilton pride and stuff like that in my university city. What do you see as some of the biggest issues facing our rainbow communities Just going to interact with Tony. So definitely access to health care and mental health care for sexually diverse gender, diverse individuals and sex, but also safety and education and schools, which I think is a thing which came up again and again. And while we've perhaps done more work in that area than, um, we have with the health foundation, um, still [00:16:30] so much to do. I am Zach. I'm an artist, and I am from Auckland. So why did you come to the conference? Um, I came because I was really interested in hearing a lot of the speakers who were on the agenda and that. And, Yeah, I liked a lot of the topics that were going to be discussed. I thought it was sort of an important, important thing to expand [00:17:00] knowledge in this area. What did you get out of it? Um, I learned about a lot of gaps in my own personal knowledge, particularly that are, like, really important to a queer understanding of New Zealand life or something like that. Like, I've I realised how little I know about Pacifica LGBT Q I and I really want to change that. And so that's sort of the [00:17:30] most important part for me. Um, what do you see as some of the biggest issues facing our rainbow communities? Um, safety and visibility both hand in hand. You can't have safety because there's not enough visibility and vice versa. So, yeah, that's that. Those are my two main priorities when it comes to sort of dealing with Rainbow shoes. Do you have any solutions? Um, [00:18:00] not not immediate ones. Just being like my my biggest interest or like solution, I guess, is to be prepared to learn and to be prepared to be wrong and things that you already understand or think you already understand. Um, why do you think the conference is important? Um, it's really important to get these discussions happening up and down the country rather than just in single [00:18:30] places. So it's really good that the like amazing minds up in Auckland are talking to the amazing mines down in Wellington and Christchurch and and everywhere else that people and also like it's so incredible that this included like an international audience as well. And people from the Pacific Islands and stuff are over for this, like sharing all the amazing and unique experiences everyone's had.

IRN: 783
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/conan_mckegg_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004290
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089584
TITLE: Conan McKegg profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Conan McKegg
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; 48Hours; Aotearoa New Zealand; Conan McKegg; Emerging Artists Trust; House of Memories; OutTakes: A Reel Queer Film Festival; The Winding City; Urban Numina; Wellington; acting; arts; fantasy; film; gaming; gay; horror (film); language; lesbian; queer; sci-fi; screen writing; stereotypes; storytelling; suicide; transgender; visual arts; writing
DATE: 25 February 2014
YEAR: 2014
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Conan talks about writing for the screen and working on the draft script for House of Memories.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I've been sort of into writing for a very long time. Um, very long time. I, uh, wrote from about the age of five. I think it was I was writing, like, complex stories and so on and at when I was about not even at eight. My school actually, um, published one of the stories I wrote for the school library and so on. And as far as I'm aware, it's still there at their library. Um, so I've always loved writing. And, um, once I got to university, I went into [00:00:30] doing some freelance writing for, uh, role playing game companies. So it's like writing short stories and sort of advice on how to play games and so on. And then I got offered a A gig, doing some online, um, articles about my thoughts about gaming and, um, communities and the social aspect of it. But I didn't really get into film until about 2005. Um, after doing 48 [00:01:00] hour film challenge, I sort of was like, Well, you know, we did. We made a film in a weekend. Why can't we do this like every weekend? Well, not quite every weekend, but you know more regularly. Why? Why wait for one time a year to make some small film and learn some skills? So that was my original plan. And I? I, um, hadn't really been doing a lot of writing for a while, and I've been feeling kind of a bit sort of aimless and shiftless in my work. So I was like, I wanted to sort of get back to my creative outlet. And I wrote a Web series [00:01:30] called The Winding City and that went through quite a bit of development. Um, and my whole Oh, you know, we can shoot a show and, like, you know, a weekend and, you know, with planning we can we can shoot like, a couple of episodes and it's all good turned out to be about a year and a half worth of work, which was a really good sort of educational experience. And the difference between doing something that's small scale and then something that gets larger. And the thing with Winding City was that as [00:02:00] we sort of developed it, it became clear that it was going to be a much bigger, um, event. So that's how I kind of got into film was I'd always loved film, and I've always loved movies, but I'd never really considered myself a writer for movies. Um, and it wasn't until I did that, and everyone really liked the script and they liked the work. And I just found that I loved the whole process of making a film. It's a very different process to writing prose, and when you see the end result because it's not just [00:02:30] your work, it's a whole bunch of other people. To me. It's kind of like rediscovering the story over and over again and just falling in love with it again and again and again and again. And so, yeah, it just sort of became this this thing for me. Um, And then after that, I decided to try and go back to my original idea with a series called Urban Nomina, which is much smaller scale. And that was just basically, we write a script and then we shoot it in the weekend, and then we put it out the next week online. Um and [00:03:00] you know, just take the, you know, insults and praise as they come. Um, and that was a very chaotic experience, but again, it was kind of a learning experience for me as far as the limitations of film and film making and like the demands when you're working without a budget and you're trying to sort of get a whole bunch of really eager people to work together. So it was It was a great experience, and I think the the result of both those projects were while zero budget projects were still I'm [00:03:30] still quite proud of them because they were like going from having no knowledge to suddenly having by, um, 2011. Having done more, we we shot approximately a feature films worth of footage between the two shows. Um, in fact, no probably feature film and a half with footage. Um, that was actually quite a feather in my cap. Um, considering that a lot of people will say that they want to make film, and then they just they [00:04:00] allow themselves to sort of get a bit sort of intimidated by the work that is involved and the costs and being able to sort of hopefully show people that you can actually do something, and that's at least get yourself at the point where you can then start making plans and get a bit more ambitious after that. So what are the special things about writing for film? Um, unlike, say, writing prose? Well, writing for pros is I mean, they're both [00:04:30] quite organic processes, but prose is quite organic and that you often have a much rougher outline like you'll often have ideas of where you want the story to go and you'll you'll sometimes plan out a skeleton. But the story kind of rates itself, as as you get into writing prose, because you you very rarely go from the back to the front. You you start, there's a person. It's a dark, rainy night, and then your story kind of flows on from there. So, like [00:05:00] you'll have your characters laid out and so on. But the whole process is a lot more organic and and you kind of discover it that way, whereas with film, you've kind of got to be a lot stricter about what you're going to say. Um, often, I found with prose, you often discovered your themes and ideas as you wrote the story. Um, because often the story would kind of evolve as as you were telling it, whereas in film you've kind of got to know what you're wanting to say before you say it because, [00:05:30] um, once your script is written, someone else is gonna have to do other work, and then you might be going back and doing rewrites. But someone else is already now working with the assumption that this is the story. And whereas with prose you can always change the story later on. So there there is a a lot more discipline involved. I think in in the planning stage, uh, with film like you've got to say, this is what I'm going to do and then you do that. And then if you want to make changes, you've got to make so many people aware of what [00:06:00] the changes are going to be, because then they've got to make decisions as well. Um, from a first draught, though it tends to be very similar. Um, the big difference with film, of course, is that you got to think visually. Um, and so you've got to stop thinking about how do I describe what the person's thinking and find a way of? Well, how would I show what the person's thinking because you can't just have a person, Of course, say this is what I'm thinking because how [00:06:30] many people in the real world do that? So you've got to be able to understand what kind of facial expressions, what kind of actions would they do? What kind of decisions would they make that would hint to the audience what's going on in the brain without telling them what's going on in the brain? Because your script can't say that you can't say in your script. Oh, blah, blah, blah is thinking this because it just it. How are you gonna show that? So you've got to imply it through through the action. So it's a very different kind of writing experience and very challenging. [00:07:00] What are your favourite genres in film? 001 of my favourite genres. I like, um, a lot of that kind of speculative fiction genre, so I like fantasy and sci-fi, but I'm also a big horror fan, and I love romantic comedies. I'm a bit of a softy at heart, so I like those. But I also like, um, thrillers and action. So I I've got a very eclectic taste. Um So when I was up in Auckland with [00:07:30] my mum over Christmas as an example, over the course of three days, I went to three movies that I all loved. And they were like hunting games August, Osage County. And then we watched the life of pie and then top it all off with rock of ages. And it was kind of like, Wow, that's quite a lot of different stuff to all go through in four days. Um, so yeah, yeah, I, I do like I'm I'm very passionate about just stories in general. So if it's a really good story, then I'm in. [00:08:00] Yeah, and in terms of your own writing What? What? What are you working on? I found that I did a lot of fantasy, and one of my goals as a writer is to try and challenge myself out of being in a particular glut. Um, well, not a glut, but a particular genre, because some writers they'll have a genre that they love to write, and they and they'll write that, and they they will perfect their skill at that. But, um, I like to challenge myself. So I I want to avoid [00:08:30] always doing the same genre. So I've done a lot of urban fantasy stuff. I think that's kind of my my biggest sort of strengths because I just kind of always end up going to that kind of magical realism place. Um, but for example, the next film that I plan to do once House of Memories is kind of under way, and I'm I'm free to start doing some more. Writing on other stuff is actually I'm thinking of doing a dance movie, um, which will have no fantasy and no magic, no weirdness, [00:09:00] no horror. It's just going to be a very simple story. Um, and, uh, I'm I'm currently doing a bit of research on that. So it'll be interesting because I an OK dancer I. I can I can move on the dance floor. But I'm not at any point someone who would get in front of a camera and do a synchronised dance routine or anything like that. So I think it'll be a fun challenge. So you mentioned the house of memories. Tell me about that. Well, the House of Memories is my current project, and this is, [00:09:30] um, a large feature film. Um, my goal is to do it on a zero or low budget, which basically means low budget is kind of you're looking at around $100,000. 0 budget means exactly what it sounds like. You you might be making it for, like, 1000 bucks if you're lucky. Um, so that sets some challenges, especially because it's a horror and it's an existential horror. So that means that there's a lot of very weird things going on, and there will be visual effects or some kind of special effects required. And [00:10:00] so, if you're going to do that with no money, you got to really think about when you're writing it. How can I write this in a way that's not going to limit me but also isn't gonna break the bank if we come to budgeting time? So at the moment, I'm trying not to think about the budget. Um, House of memories was, um, a result of a challenge. Actually, Um, that, uh, I have a few friends who are actresses, and they were talking about how there was just no work for [00:10:30] for female actors out there, and then that kind of came at the same time that someone was talking about how there's just not a lot of gay cinema out there and that there was a lot of cinema where it's just basically your your traditional white, straight male, as is the lead. And that's what the story is about. And there's nothing wrong with those kinds of stories. I mean, I love those kinds of stories, but I thought it would be a great challenge to write an ensemble piece that would try and have as many powerful female characters in there who are powerful. [00:11:00] Bite into the character not by, you know, having muscles or, you know, the the traditional strong woman who's all like I fight. And I wanted to have strong women who are strong real women. So these were people who were just strong personalities, knew who they were, um, and so I wanted to have an ensemble because I wanted it to have as many opportunities as possible without being ungainly. And that's quite a challenge. And the other challenge was that I had to write it In 48 hours. Um, a friend [00:11:30] of mine decided as a challenge that we would do 48 hour write a phones where we basically lock ourselves in a house and we write a feature film script in 48 hours, and we have, like, a tele board and everything. So that was when the first draught got written, Um, which I'm very proud to say. It got written. I got the whole film done. It was about 87 pages, I think the original draught, Um and it was terrible, really bad. But even then, um, we could see that there was, like, a really interesting story there at the [00:12:00] at the base, you briefly mentioned gay cinema. And I'm just wondering, what is gay cinema? What does it mean to you? Well, that's a really good question. And and you hear it like queer film and gay cinema all the time. Um, to me, it's just any story that has a gay or a queer protagonist. I really should say queer protagonist rather than gay protagonists, because you know, there's more than just gay people out there in the community and [00:12:30] really needs. I think that it's really important that there is cinema out there that has, you know, lesbian and gay and trans and gender and asexuals lead characters and that these lead characters can be kind of role models for us as a community to be able to look up and go OK, you know, that is how I want my community to be. That's That's what I would love to sort of see not only within [00:13:00] the LGBTI community, but also to how other people will embrace our community and and sort of accept that, you know, we have our differences and we have our unique traits. But we're also all just like everyone else, and we have the same kind of problems and the same kind of worries and the same kind of conflict, um and yeah, to to give us something that we can look at and be proud of and so that you know, um, like when we go to a movie and we see like a character and we like, we really like that character and oh man, [00:13:30] I really see myself as that character. I think you know, it's really healthy to be able to show a queer main character who's not going through just queer issues. But it's actually having an experience that someone who's not queer can also relate to. And then I kind of I guess in my optimistic world hoped that that would, um, and help foster an understanding that, you know, really, [00:14:00] we we've all got the same kind of things. And this this whole thing of like us and them kind of mentality just kind of melts away when you realise that, Yeah, there's some things that happen differently in in our lives. But we still face a lot of the same challenges and the same sort of things. So do you think a gay film needs to have, uh, gay characters or be outwardly gay? Or is it more what's behind the scenes, like the screenwriter or the [00:14:30] director or the cast and crew? Yeah, I remember being at a workshop for outtakes where that question came up as well, and it's a tough question to answer. Um, I think if we if we're looking at, like a festival situation where you've got like, a queer festival, I think it's good enough that the films have a queer director or someone who's quite integral to the film being queer. [00:15:00] That, to me, is good enough for it to make it into a festival I think getting really particular about the festival having to have, like, loads of queer content on the screen. I think that's just creating unnecessary boxes. Um, for people. I, I think you do need to be honest to your audience that there will be some films here that won't necessarily be a primarily queer narrative. Um, but the reason we're including this is because the director is queer or the writer is queer. And, [00:15:30] you know, we want to support them, because we do. We do want to see those people getting, uh, getting an opportunity, especially if their films are good. So at the end of the day, as long as the films something that people are gonna want to see, um, I don't see why we have to be too concerned about whether the queerness is on the screen or it's behind the screen getting that film made. Um, unless, of course, you know, it happens to be a film with a queer director. That's all about how horrible queers are. And then maybe [00:16:00] we might have to have a conversation. Um, but other than that, yeah. So tell me, as a screenwriter, how you convey, um somebody's sexuality on screen or or gender identity. What are the things that you do to add into your script that focus on those areas? Yeah, um, I'm actually going to be quite ballsy and say not a lot. Um, one of the biggest things I tend to do is I just write them like normal people. [00:16:30] And, um, you generally find out about their sexuality in context. I'm I'm generally against having my characters like, you know, the first thing you see about them is like they they come out and they go, I'm gay. Um, But having said that in House of memories, um, I have two queer couples in that and the first queer couple. It's pretty obvious from the minute you see them that they're a couple and that they're queer, but [00:17:00] it's not through any particular dialogue. I just have them behaving like a loving couple with each other. And the fact that they're two guys is the only real cue that they like. They don't sort of use any sort of fancy sort of lingo or, um and I do describe them as kind of just really normal guys. One of them is kind of a bit. I wouldn't say camp, but he's he's definitely, um he looks after himself quite a bit. So he's [00:17:30] very model like and very perfect hair and perfect skin. And so on. Um, which depend? I kind of wanted to leave it open to the director or casting to decide how sort of they they want to cast that character, um, and the lesbian couple in it again. It's not overtly stated until quite late in the film that, you know there are a couple, but it really obvious from their relationship and how they talk to each other and the fact that they're the only two people living [00:18:00] in the house. Um, and they share the same bedroom. It's not hiding it. It's that I just don't sort of feel the need to have everyone sort of classify themselves when you meet them. I just sort of think if you can write them naturally, like real people like you will just know that they're queer because that's just the the situation that they're in and so on. Um, I'm just always reminded of my lesbian friend who, you know. It's not like the first time I met her. She was like, Oh, I'm a lesbian [00:18:30] And it was just, you know, she walked in with her girlfriend, who you knew that was all you needed. You didn't need to have people going around sort of introducing themselves and classifying themselves. And I tried to do the same with my writing. Um, we have a trans character in the film as well, and there was a lot of thought I put into how I would represent that because, of course, you want to have in the script it clear that the character is Trans because, ideally, I would like to actually have a trans actress play the part. [00:19:00] Um, but you don't want to put in the script like that. I kind of felt very uncertain about whether to actually label her in the script as Trans or because, you know, I want to describe her, how the audience would see her when she steps out of the car the first time. So she's actually described as a woman. Um, and then the very quickly there's a conversation that gets mentioned that another person [00:19:30] referred to her as James, which was her name before she transitioned, Um and then it becomes obvious throughout the script that she's, uh, she's a trans woman. But she wasn't um, yeah, it wasn't really. I didn't want that to be her defining trait in the film. And hopefully, um, that comes across in the script is that [00:20:00] what's important about her is who she is as a person and that it was just important to me that there was a transgender character represented in there who wasn't represented as I'm a transgender character and I'm having issues being transgendered. It was. I'm a transgender character. I'm I've gone through all my crap. I'm I know who I am. I'm happy with who I am. My friends are happy with who I am, and now we're just moving forward with with the story of the struggles that I'm facing in this situation [00:20:30] that I'm in, Um, which has got nothing to do with my gender. It's to do with myself as a person, and that's kind of a different thing. So I hope that kind of makes sense. That might have been a bit confusing. How do you know if the script is working? I mean, do you kind of workshop it or do you bounce it off, people? Um, I do have a few friends that I send my scripts out to and sort of ask for notes, Um, and particularly when you're doing something like I I'm working on. Whereas I want a film that can be identified as [00:21:00] queer cinema both behind the camera and in front, but will appeal to a broad audience because I want want it to be a film that, um you know, uh, your standard everyday movie going audience can go to and they will still enjoy, and they won't sort of feel excluded or uncomfortable. Um, except when you know, it's a horror. So of course, they're gonna feel a little uncomfortable. Um, but yeah, they're not gonna feel too challenge. So I tend to send it out to a variety of friends [00:21:30] from various different sort of groups to sort of get their feedback and input. Um, because it is important to me to try and capture something that's going to have a broad appeal, Um, without sort of sacrificing too much of what I want in there as well. Um, the other thing is that, uh, through eat, um, the emerging artists trust. Uh, I got involved with a writers' workshop. Um and so the [00:22:00] way that that workshop works is that we've got 16 writers and 16 actors, give or take. And then once a month, the writers get to bring in about 20 pages of the script. The actors perform it in a kind of A it's kind of a reading, but there there is acting as well. And then, uh, after we have sort of given some feedback to the actors about their performances and so on, the writer will sit down and the other writers and actors will give feedback about, um, how it felt to act, [00:22:30] what was obvious to the actors. What was obvious to the writers. And the writers will discuss, like the sort of narrative mechanics and what worked and what didn't. And so you get a lot of feedback and, um, then once a month, we do one piece that will be the whole film will get acted out, and that's what we did just last week for House of Memories. So I got to see all 116 pages performed. Um, and that really helped. That [00:23:00] really helps to to sort of get some feedback and an idea of how the audience is because we get an audience in and they get to sort of give us some notes about how they felt about it and what worked for them and what didn't and how confusing things were. So what is that experience like? Because I imagine it would be quite nerve wracking. I was a complete wreck heading into that. I was really nervous. Um, I, I hope I managed to sort of quell most of it when I was talking to people. But I [00:23:30] was really kind of worried that everyone was going to hate it or that nobody would get what I was trying to do. Um, I probably should be a bit clearer about what the story is. Um, so the story of House of Memories is following a friend's suicide. Eight friends gather in the house that they pretty much grew up in together. Um, it's a big mansion, and they get haunted by the ghosts of themselves [00:24:00] as teenagers. And these ghosts want, uh, basically demanding answers about why now in their thirties, they haven't turned out the way that they thought they were going to um And then in the process of that challenge, um, they begin to learn that there's something more sinister about the house. Um, that could mean that their past will get forgotten as well as their futures. Um, so that's it in a nutshell. And of course, when you got eight characters [00:24:30] and then eight younger versions of those characters, it can get quite chaotic. So it was very important that at the end of the piece, the audience could then say to me, Yes, I got what was going on. Um, which the most part, they did the most part. Um, but yeah, the feedback was really good. And so we had about 17 actors on stage because there are some other characters as well, and we still had people doubling up on roles. Um, but we managed [00:25:00] to everyone. All the feedback was mostly that people got the gist of what was going on, and there was a lot of positive feedback about the fact that it is a film about not about death or violence or anything. It is a film about sort of regret and loss, and about how friendships change over the years because you get to see what these people are like as friends when they were teenagers and how that's changed as their friends Now in their thirties. Um, and [00:25:30] there were three sort of key storylines that run through that, um, which are two couples and two friends who are trying to sort of come to terms with the difference between past and their futures. Did the audience surprise you? They did. Um, I was seriously expecting probably harsher feedback than I got, which was good. Um, [00:26:00] I did. I didn't get glowing. Everything's perfect. But I did get glowing feedback. Um, that, um, was all about how much I'm on the right track with this story. And it was great having, um, just straight, um, audience members also admitting that they loved it. They they they identified with the characters they identified with the story, and that was [00:26:30] really important to me. Um, and one of the other really cool, cool bits of feedback I got was one person, um, about midway through the reading. He started getting serious stomach cramps, but he didn't want to leave because he wanted to find out how it ended. So he actually suffered through crippling pain to see how the story ended. And then when it was ended, he he had to had to leave. And then he contacted me later and said that he loved it and and thought it was really good and that he just had to had [00:27:00] to find out what happened to these characters, which I was very proud of. Um, but it wasn't all, Um yeah, it's not perfect because it's still only an early draught. So that was also good to get the feedback on what wasn't working and what got people a bit confused. And they were able to sort of highlight for me areas where I could improve and areas where they felt that maybe there needed to be some changes, and then I could go Well, I don't really want to change that because that [00:27:30] works the way that I want it to work. It's more a case of me now figuring out How can I make it clearer in the piece that this is what I'm aiming at with the scene and then, if that can, If I can communicate that better, then I can keep what I want. And then if I can't communicate it better. Then I now know what I need to do to make it work, even if it might not be what I originally wanted to do. And I think that that's important. And it is very important in film to be able to, um, put ego aside a bit [00:28:00] and go OK, that just didn't work. I love it and it's brilliant and it's awesome to me, but that's not necessarily what the film needs. The film needs to be something that other people are going to embrace and want. So so you have to be able to sort of admit when it's just you not willing to let go of something. And when it's something or it's just you not being able to communicate quite what you want wanted to say, How do you get that balance [00:28:30] between doing something for a mainstream audience and something for a queer audience? How do How do you balance that out? Oh, very carefully, Um, I. I think it goes back to my my standard view that the it it it's like writing, um, female characters, in my view, is that the first thing you do is you stop thinking about them [00:29:00] as a queer character or a female character or a male character or something, and you just think about them as a person. And then you write that person just like you would write any other person and then if you can change their gender or their sexuality, and it still sort of stands solid as a as a believable person, Um, then you're on the right track. Um, obviously, there will be some differences, Um, some things that are important to women and not important to guys and some things that are important to queer people and not important [00:29:30] to straight people. But those are kind of details that just come up in language. They're not really details in personality as such. Um, and and I always find that as long as if I play, you know, switch around. Um, and I still believe that this is a person and not just, you know, the writer talking to me or telling me, um Then I think I usually think I'm on the right track and with, um, winding city [00:30:00] and urban. No, um, the feedback that I got on both of those shows was very much the same. Was that because I wrote the characters with Let's have a person in mind rather than a stereotype or an archetype or anything like that? Um, I found that a lot of straight audiences found that the queer characters quite relatable and quite identifiable. But the queer audience also found them relatable and identifiable and didn't sort of feel like I was pandering to one audience or the [00:30:30] other. Um, and that's really hard. And sometimes, you know, my earlier draughts will feel like, you know, Oh, well, I'm just writing a gay character for me, or I'm just writing a whatever character for this person. Um, but yeah, I, I Yeah, just think of them as people rather than and think of them as individuals rather than kind of like a blanket thing. And then you you tend to get it. You tend to hit it. So what happens after the workshop? You You You've just had the workshop. What [00:31:00] happens now? Well, um, the workshop is an ongoing thing. Um, and I'll be having to present 20 pages in about a week's time of a project, and I've decided to stick with House of mirrors because obviously I'm wanting to shoot it. Um, at the end of the year, Um, so I need to make sure that it's well ready for the next stage. Um, so the next step at the moment is to take all the feedback that people gave and then sift through it and work out well, what feedback am I willing to take on board? [00:31:30] And what feedback do I feel? Just doesn't really apply, at least at this point in time and then use that to do my rewrites. So, um, there is a lot of feedback that I got that I kind of questioned, um, not because it was wrong, but because it just wasn't quite what I if I follow it, it's not really going to get the film where I want it to be. So I've got to sit down and and consider that [00:32:00] feedback and consider how much of that is just me being a bit rebellious And how much of that is me being true to what I want to tell in my story. Um, so that's where I'm at at the moment is working there, and I've got about a week to get 20 pages done of it, but, um, most of the feedbacks really helped me figure that out already. So I already know what my 1st 20 pages rewrites is going to be, Um, and that gets start working on tomorrow, [00:32:30] actually, um, and then? Yeah. Then we just go through that whole process again.

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ATL REF: OHDL-004289
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089583
TITLE: Rev. Dr. Margaret Mayman - last reflection
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Margaret Mayman
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Margaret Mayman; St Andrew's on the Terrace; Wellington; faith; religion; spirituality
DATE: 24 November 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: St Andrew's on the Terrace, 30 The Terrace, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio of Rev. Dr. Margaret Mayman's last reflection " The blessing of gratitude". After nearly twelve years of ministry, Margaret gave her last sermon at St Andrew's on the Terrace in Wellington on Sunday, 24 November 2013. A special thank you to Margaret and St Andrew's for allowing us to record this reflection.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: When I returned to New Zealand from the United States in 1995 I wrote my first sermon in Christchurch at a dining room table because I hadn't yet got a desk. The sermon was also written at a dining table because I've no longer got a desk. Both sermons were written in the early morning. Some things never change, no matter how much I wish they might be different. My Sunday reflections, it appears, [00:00:30] are always going to be fresh. I've been thinking about the sermon for a while, though ending a ministry of nearly 12 years. Surely it should be quite profound. No pressure then. Well, it's not particularly profound. It's really quite simple. I am thankful for all that has been for being part of this faith community and the city community for the gifts of living with [00:01:00] and among you. And I am thinking about living. Thankfully, a dining table is a good place to ground a sermon because it is at the heart of our everyday life, where we meet family and friends, where we offer hospitality, engage in conversation and where we practise gratitude and giving thanks for what nourishes us in body mind and spirit because we have lived [00:01:30] for the last 12 years in a beautiful place in the bush on a hillside in Kari. This particular dining table is also a place where I can see the splendour of nature, the openness of the sky, at least when Kari is not shrouded in fog and the human community of New Zealand's largest suburb. A dining table invites us to pause and pay attention to give thanks and see the small community of family and friends [00:02:00] connected to the world where there is beauty and there is also suffering. We are called to keep connected to the holy source of life and to one another, but not in a simplistic way that denies conflict and injustice. But refusing to connect to join with others at table refusing to converse is to deny the Holy beloved calling that has gripped us today. I do not want to focus, [00:02:30] as I often do on the work that we are called to do in the world, the work of peace and justice. You know that today I want to talk about paying attention to our lives and responding with gratitude. The story from Luke's gospel about the Samaritan leper returning to thank Jesus when he found himself healed offers a reminder that gratitude is not just a matter of remembering to be polite and say thank you or write thank you notes, as our mothers taught us. Neither is the healing, [00:03:00] particularly the point of the story, though it does remind us that the suffering of those with skin disease in the ancient world was more about being excluded from community and temple than about the disease itself. The story connects thankfulness with praising God. The leper returns and gives thanks to Jesus by giving glory to God. He understands to use joy. Cowley's word. The meaning of his life is gift. [00:03:30] The words of thanks are important, but more so is the turning back, taking the time to connect, reflecting on the meaning of the moment. The return trip for this man was more than a few steps. Otherwise there would be no compelling reason why the other nine would not have come back, too. Going back to Jesus definitely involves a detour, a change of our plans, And when he meets Jesus again, his actions indicate [00:04:00] his joyful heart, a sense of gratitude is an important wellspring of generous and well for a generous and well lived life. We can all recognise that we are indebted to our parents, who gave us birth and raised us a considerable sacrifice. But our indebtedness extends much further than that. Fundamentally, we are indebted to the creativity of God, source of life and the powers of nature that nourish and [00:04:30] sustain our life. So since the food that we eat travels from the soil to our dining table by passing through many hands that cultivate harvest transport, sell and prepare it, we should recognise that we rely on the labours of many people in order to survive a sense of gratitude to others acknowledges our interdependent existence. It is an antidote to the dominant myth of independence [00:05:00] and self-sufficiency. It is about respecting the humanity and those who check our groceries and bring our coffee, seeing their full humanity reflecting on the meaning of their lives, saying thanks and also working as hard as we possibly can to ensure that our society pays a living wage to its lowest paid workers. The reading from the letter to the Colossians is also a dining table letter The passage we heard [00:05:30] ends with the words and be thankful the author may have been poor. Probably wasn't. Doesn't really matter is writing to a community with a few issues conflict and disagreement about theology. But our passage today is a reflection of the nature of community and the relationship between spirit and our lives. The writer calls the community to compassion, kindness, humility, patience, love and thankfulness. [00:06:00] The letter is not written as a guide to etiquette. It's not just about what we should do. It's about the values, stories and meanings we choose to envelop our lives. We are called to put on a story like a garment to clothe ourselves with love, peace and thankfulness. And living like this is acting like the Samaritan leper, giving glory to the holy. That doesn't mean directing our lives and our worship to an out [00:06:30] there intervening deity. It means living attentive to our own reality, intimately connected with the source of all that is and honouring that in every other person. Thankfulness is a spiritual practise that grows this awareness in us. It is a practise that builds up and sustains a community, practises lead to habits they build muscle memory and moment by moment, step by step, [00:07:00] our words and deeds become consonant with our values and our beliefs. You've got to do it. You've got to live it. There is a fabulous old Jewish story about thankfulness that reminds us that it is about a perspective on our lives, about how we see and understand the situation in which we find ourselves. There is a man who goes to the rabbi and complains. Life is unbearable. There are nine of us, my wife and seven Children living [00:07:30] in one room. What can I do? The rabbi answers. Take your goat into the room with you. The man is incredulous, but the rabbi insists, Do as I say and come back in one week. A week later, the man comes back looking more distraught than before. We cannot stand it, he tells the rabbi. The goat is filthy. Then the then the rabbi tells him, Go home and let the goat out and come back [00:08:00] in a week. A radiant man returns to the rabbi, explaining, Life is beautiful. We enjoy every minute of it. Now that there's no goat, only the nine of us. The situation was exactly the same as the first, but now his perception has changed. He saw, saw and understood the blessing that was already there. Now I don't want the story to be a rationale for justifying overcrowding and suffering. [00:08:30] Of course, there is injustice in the world, in our communities and our own lives. And of course, we should work for change. But if we only focus on what needs to change, we may miss the blessings that are already present. We may forget to turn back and experience the rich moments of joy that come with thankfulness. And I wonder in adding to the story if this attitude of mind moved the man from complaint to transformation and he got his complaining kids [00:09:00] together and built an extra room, thankfulness is not just about good manners. It is about an orientation in life that enables us to appreciate what is good and to engage compassionately, to change what is not yet good. By reframing the events of our lives in positive ways and including a glimmer of gratitude, we increase our sense of coherence with the world. Such such glimmers can lighten our pain and energise [00:09:30] our lives for love and compassion in the Samaritan and his act of Thanksgiving. We see Jesus once again, teaching an alternative way, subverting the teaching that seemed to suggest that God required strict adherence to rules and codes. God is close at hand in your neighbour in an act of compassion, a touch of healing. The Kingdom of God is in the midst of you take [00:10:00] notice, saying thanks demands attention to the moment. It demands our recognition that the present moment is precious, not to be missed. The recognition of the present moment is the beginning of abundance. Abundance means not counting. How much is enough with food or time or money, but just beginning to see what is and being able to say thank you. It means not rushing off to the next thing, as the nine did, [00:10:30] but stopping to take note of the reality of the present moment. So the saying of thanks grounds us in the present, not determined by the past or focused on an unknown future. We are simply invited to be still to let go of our stored up regrets about yesterday and our empt up fears about tomorrow. The practise of thankfulness is an alternative [00:11:00] way to live in the world. So I mark this last reflection, this dining table moment with my thanks for all that is and has been in the faith community for the faith that we share following the Jesus way for all the connections that we have known with people of other faiths and the wider community of Wellington, I am thankful for all that we have done [00:11:30] together for all that you have given me and taught me for the sharing of your beautiful, shimmering Selves. I cannot begin to thank you. And yet all I can do is thank you and bless you. Amen.

IRN: 747
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_rainbows_nickki.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004288
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089582
TITLE: Nickki - Beyond Rainbows
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Jo Jackson / Grizz
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Beyond Rainbows (series); Jo Jackson / Grizz; Queer the Night (Wellington); School's Out (Wellington); Wellington; affirmation; anxiety; bisexual; books; bullying; cis male; coming out; consent; demisexual; depression; education; family; fear; friends; homelessness; homophobia; human rights; kicked out; loneliness; media; mental health; mental illness; minority; oppression; panic attack; pansexual; parents; pets; queer; representation; safe sex; sex; sex education; stigma; support; virginity; youth
DATE: 12 November 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Nickki talks about coming out, mental health and fluid sexuality.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: What minorities are you part of in the queer community? Um, well, I have quite extreme mental health issues, I suppose, with anxiety and depression and the like. And, um, I'm not sure if I would fit under the labels of pansexual or bisexual. I haven't really decided, but I really like girls. But, like, everyone else is cool too, like, after a while, and I'd also identify as demisexual cool. So, um, you talked before about mental [00:00:30] health? How do you think? Um, having mental health issues has affected life for you as a queer person? Um, it can make it really difficult, like, especially like to access the queer support groups in the community because I've often found it, like, quite nerve wracking to go to other groups, because I'll be afraid that they'll judge me or anything. And I know it's silly because they're generally really supporting, but I could never actually get the confidence to go to, like, groups [00:01:00] like schools out and everything, even though I thought it would be like a really good time. And I have, like, people I know in that Are there any other, um, ways of support other than groups? like that. Um, not that I've I know of, I didn't have much access to any books or anything. Um, before I kind of figured out my sexuality, I was very close to it. And I had no information whatsoever on what was out there. So I only knew [00:01:30] what got told to me by my other friends. So, yeah, where did you get most of your support from? Um, it was mostly just the fact that my friends were generally cool people and were totally OK with it. So when I came out, I didn't feel any worry at all. Um, my parents weren't too supportive like they accepted me, but my dad used to like to pin my sexuality on the fact that I had problems with my mom. And that was why I was I liked girls, which was really silly. [00:02:00] Um, but no. Apart from that, it was just me and I did find a good book at the library after I came out, though it was a whole collection of stories based on queer women and their experiences and like trans women and everything. And it was really great. And it felt good because that was the first time I'd ever read a book with queer people on it, and it felt really affirming to actually know that, like, I wasn't just some weird outlier, [00:02:30] because when I was little, I would always read books and everything because I was quite bullied and to have no representation when I was little. It kind of made me feel like an anomaly, like something that shouldn't have existed because, like if it didn't exist in books, then what exactly was that kind of thing? Do you think having representation of people who are queer but beyond the typical old fashioned gays and lesbians is important? Definitely, [00:03:00] like there is a I don't know. I don't want to sound unfair, but there's a huge thing of what we see in the media. Media is gay, white, sus ma like I can name, like at least three more, more, um, of those couples in the media like Kurt and Blaine and the the two on Modern Family and the like. And it's but [00:03:30] I can't really blame many lesbian couples or bisexual people or pansexual people, or those are even rarer like, and the how they show bisexuality and sexuality and the like in the media is also really stereotypical. How do they show it? Like sometimes it will be like shown as the person being indecisive or just sleeping around with people for fun, like Not that that's bad. [00:04:00] But just that's always the default stereotype that, like they're only in it for fun. And you see tweets about how like people wouldn't want to be with one of those people because they would just cheat and they would never be enough kind of thing, which I think is really unfair. So do you think that's an inaccurate portrayal of bisexual like There are people who like sleeping around, and that's OK, and there are people who don't like sleeping around. That's OK, but like often bisexuals in the media or pansexuals get [00:04:30] shamed for either one of those. Like if you're with one, then you have to hurry up and choose, and you know you can't ever be attracted to one to anything else. But if you sleep around, then you get shamed for sleeping around, and that's really uncool. Do you think that there should be a different representation of people who are bisexual in the media. And what do you think that should be? Um, definitely a lot more varies. I think [00:05:00] there should be like showings of bisexuals who have an even preference for both. And that's totally OK. And no one tells them that they have to hurry up and pick or it's not a punch line. And then there could be some that are shown that actually have a preference. That's strong for one. Because when you say bisexual, most people think that you have an equal preference for one of the sixes, and that's not true. Why do you think, um, representation [00:05:30] is important in the media? Well, before, like I said, like, I had no idea that people like me existed, and so I felt really lonely. And it's incredibly validating to see your experiences and to see someone like you in the TV or the media or anything. Really, Does that, um, extend to mental health as well as you? Oh, yeah, definitely. There's a huge stigma surrounded through lack of representation on [00:06:00] mental health issues like people have no idea what a panic attack is. Sometimes people think that the best way to snap someone out is by slapping them in the face, which can be incredibly traumatic to a person. But since it's shown so often in the media that that's how you get someone out when they're hysterical, then I've seen people do it, and it's just not OK and the fact that you know it's a common thing. It's a common thing said to people who are depressed, that they just need to snap out of it or back up because [00:06:30] the person is either shown as something that's beautiful and artistic or something that's just the person being lazy and those aren't really true. Um, do you think that there is an intersection between the stigma surrounding mental health and the oppression faced by queer people? I think so, Like, there's a lot of people who think that, you know, liking someone else is kind of like a mental deficiency, or there's something [00:07:00] wrong with them if they like other people. But that's simply a case of, you know, bigotry on that person's side because there's nothing really wrong with liking who you like, and there's nothing wrong with having a mental illness and the factors that just the judgement makes it so much harder for both of those things to get help, like you get judged so harshly if you have a mental illness and you're judged so harshly if you're queer [00:07:30] and there's also support groups. But they're also quite hard to find, since you know, most of the things are catered to straight people, and so anything that's not to straight people tends to get swept over. Have you faced much depression in your time for being bisexual or pansexual? Or I've never had physical violence outright. I've had slurs yell at me and people staring and slowing down their cars to have a look. Um, [00:08:00] I've had just quite unkind comments like, you know, just Dad saying that, you know, that was weird. Or, uh, I can't particularly focus on one because there's so many of them, really, and also just the way people kind of react like I've had some people that kind of, like edge away uncomfortably [00:08:30] or, you know, like they think if I'm gonna hug them, it's like gross or I come on and it kind of makes me uncomfortable. How people kind of push you away a little, especially when you're try your best, not to, you know, appear scary, but that shouldn't really be a thing you have to do. Like you shouldn't have to hide yourself in order to make other people comfortable. What about in the queer community? [00:09:00] Um, I know I've always felt a bit of a pressure from them as well, Like also concerning the word queer like I'm not even sure if I'd use that to describe myself just simply because, like for some people, it's really good. But for some people, it's still a A quite a strong slur and like I'm not sure, especially because I know like not everyone wants to be called the word queer. But like I remember when I first [00:09:30] thought I was a lesbian and I was reading up on all these subjects, there was a bit of subtle pressure to like, say that your sexuality was fluid and that, like you, could go for anyone at this which I don't know, like it's not a strong kind of pressuring, but there's still like judgement in the queer community, like from gays and lesbians towards the non mono sexual [00:10:00] people, and then sometimes for the more pansexual and people with more fluid sexuality towards ones that aren't but it's definitely a lot more accepting a lot more kinder than straight people tend to be. What about, um, mental health issues? Do you find the LGBT community is more accepting or less accepting than more mainstream communities? I also haven't had much experience to [00:10:30] say, like I've met a lot more like people who are accepting of mental health issues in the queer community. Why do you think that is? I think it's just more because there's more education going on in that circle. Like people there tend to have a lot more knowledge of mental illness, even if they don't have them themselves. And also, I don't know. With the oppression that we face sometimes I think it's kind of hard to get away with that without [00:11:00] a few kind of hard knocks here and there. So everyone tends to be a lot more accepting of people and their difficulties or things that they're struggling with what was coming out as a process like for you. I came out to my cat first because I was really nervous because I didn't know what was gonna happen or who was going to react So I told my cat like I always do when things are bad and she heard and I felt a lot better. And then I told one of my friends, [00:11:30] and he was a straight dude who was just really blunt all the time. And for some reason I felt like I could just come out And the fact that he didn't react much or anything kind of gave me the confidence to, you know, tell my mom And then I moved on to tell him more of my friends by making really bad puns about me coming out of the closet as I walked out of the pantry, and then the one of them gave a crap because because, um, they all just kind of [00:12:00] knew, and then I got really mad because everyone knew before me, but no one told me, which would have saved me a lot of trouble. The only person I really had a problem with was, um, my mom's fiance and my dad, because they just one of them had been taught religiously that, you know, gays are bad kind of thing, and the other one was just quite conservative and, you know, not that accepting of change, but I never [00:12:30] Well, OK, I did get kicked out of the house once when I went to, um, queer the night, Um, and to help protest because I went against my mom's wishes. So she kicked me out of the house for the weekend. But other than that, like, I've never actually been actively mistreated by my parents for my sexuality, which I'm quite thankful for. Do you think, um, being kicked out of the house is something which is common for you? Yeah, definitely. Like almost all queer youth I [00:13:00] know have been kicked out of the house at least once over related issues, which is pretty horrible, to be honest and also like, it doesn't help the whole stigma or the fear that queer people face, like they tell you that coming out is simple and easy, or at least that's what straight people seem to say. But then you see all your friends getting kicked out over it, and it's like if it's really that simple, and if you know, queer marriage is everywhere [00:13:30] and everything is, you know we're getting rights, then people seem to think it's kind of over, like You know, no one's really homophobic anymore, but it's still there. What do you think? The next steps for queer rights beyond same sex marriage are, um, definitely looking into queer homelessness and actually educating the parents and having educations in schools like it would be nice to actually have queer friendly sex ed in schools [00:14:00] instead of just awkwardly talking about men and sis ladies. And that's it. Like, what was your sex ed experience like, um, in our school, we got told that, like to dream up qualities and our dream partner. But like if we were into girls and we just had to imagine that it was a boy for that experience and I don't really see why, like, why is thinking up qualities for your dream girl any different [00:14:30] from thinking up qualities for your dream guy? Or for someone who doesn't sell on the binary agenda? I. I don't see how that's different. And also did. We didn't get taught about, like, safe sex for, like, people with vaginas at all. It was just, you know, put a condom on a Penis, you know, take birth control. That's it. There was nothing about that. There wasn't anything about kind of like the spelling myths about virginity [00:15:00] and stuff like that. What do you mean by myths about virginity? Hm? Just like sometimes. Like people say that, you know, it's supposed to hurt. It's OK, like when you should really be just going slow and putting lots of lube. They never tell you about that kind of stuff. Specifically, they're just like, well, lots of times it will hurt unless your hymen is already broken, which is another false thing, because your Hyman doesn't really break. It's a muscle that stretches is many things just like that, and it's everywhere. And also the concept [00:15:30] of virginity is also kind of a really gross concept. Like for one. It doesn't always apply to all people, because sometimes there's not penises in the relation or vagina like sometimes you just have fingers or other holes, and it's and just going strictly as Penis and vagina just kind of really doesn't apply to those relationships. And also it's quite Shamy like people kind of [00:16:00] treat virginity as this really special thing and like, you know, if you if you lose it, you're losing the virginity like you're losing a part of yourself instead of, you know, gaining something new like a new sexual experience kind of thing. And that's kind of a gross way to teach people about sex. In an ideal world, how would people be taught about sex mostly to keep it safe with an extreme focus on consent and how to read it like an extreme [00:16:30] look at like positive, enthusiastic consent, telling people you know don't go and sleep with people when they're drunk, unless you've talked about beforehand, and even then if they show any signs of not being into it, ask them, and if they don't respond, then don't do it kind of thing. Like in our society, it's seen as acceptable to go and get someone drunk to sleep with them, and that's not OK. And also to decrease like the thing on like slut shaming and the like, [00:17:00] and also saying that like if people don't like sex and that's OK, because a lot of people have, like fears or hang ups about it, and they can be made quite uncomfortable sometimes. And I think it's also OK to say that like it's OK that you don't like sex or it's OK, if you've had a bad experience and this has made you, like, scared to continue kind of thing instead of kind of like doing like you either have sex or you don't have sex kind of thing. Like [00:17:30] what about, um, the coming out process? How would that be? In an ideal world, Yes. No pressure, really, like no pressure on people to come out until they're ready to come out. This is the process of trying to force people to come out of their closet because they're denying a part of themselves is kind of a really gross concept, like there could be heaps of reasons why that person doesn't want to come out or why they can't come out because their boss [00:18:00] might fire them or something like that. So people should try and make it as easy and reassuring as possible, and just kind of remain open to the idea that one of your friends or family could be queer and not just think that everyone's straight all the time.

IRN: 749
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_rainbows_adrian.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004287
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089581
TITLE: Adrian - Beyond Rainbows
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Jo Jackson / Grizz
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Beyond Rainbows (series); Featherston; FtM; Jo Jackson / Grizz; Wairarapa; coming out; community; dysphoria; family; friends; gender identity; identity; internet; minority; pansexual; passing; peer support; pronouns; queer; regions; religion; school; sexuality; support; transgender; transphobia
DATE: 11 November 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Adrian talks about pan-sexuality and gender identity.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: What's your name? My name is Adrian. And what sorts of minorities in the queer community are you a part of, uh, pansexual and transgender for those of us who don't know. What does that mean? Uh, so if bisexual is when you are attracted to the two genders of male and female, then pansexual is when you're attracted to all the genders, which can be neither gender, both genders, [00:00:30] bits of both. Just anything in the gender spectrum you can be attracted to and being transgender. I'm a trans man. It means I was born a female. But now I present myself as a boy, and I'm going around making changes to myself physically. So I will physically be a boy as well. Is being a part of those minorities difficult for you in existing in the queer [00:01:00] community? It's a little bit difficult when you kind of have to explain even to queer people. What? Um what the terms you're using are and yeah, it's a little bit difficult. I mean, the queer community is a lot more accepting, but there are some people who are kind of [00:01:30] a little bit against pansexuals and transgender people. Why do you think it matters? Well, I've had a couple of gay people come up to me, and they kind of use the greedy You, um, greedy for wanting both, um, sexes. They say they want You want both sexes to sleep with them. Doesn't it make you pansexual? Bisexual. So and so you're trying [00:02:00] your best to kind of explain to them how it's different. And you'd think that they would be the people that would be more accepting of, uh, people who don't fit within the sex assigned to them and that have a different, uh, sexuality than straight. But they're a little bit, uh, close. Some Not all. Not everyone, but some members of the gay community are quite close minded [00:02:30] with it. And, um, I know, um, quite a few gays and lesbians that have been freaked out because I've been when I came out as transgender and just and they kind of yeah, freaked out a little bit and thought it was quite odd. What about in the more mainstream community? Oh, jeez. They're horrible. Um, I live in I don't [00:03:00] I don't live in Wellington. I just go to school here. I live in the in a small town called and it's pretty. There are lots of little thugs running around in Featherston. Um, so you'll be walking down the street and somebody will know that, uh, you're gay or you're pansexual. You're bisexual. You're Trans, and they'll just scream at you. They will throw things at you. And these are just the kids. The adults [00:03:30] are more. They're not as physically abusive, they're more, Uh, they kind of look at you with this disdain, and they make their Children walk away from you because, you know, obviously being gay is contagious, but, yeah, it was really difficult, especially when I came out at school. Um, in high school, I came out as being bisexual [00:04:00] because I had no idea what Pansexual was at the time. And I didn't even know it was a possibility that I could be pansexual. And, uh, it was quite weird because you would walk through, uh, the quad, the concrete block at school, and all of these kids would just kind of separate to let you through all of a sudden when they didn't even look at you twice before because they kind of wanted to give you this five metre gap between [00:04:30] them because you suddenly became this scary different thing. And that's what I guess people are afraid of. They're afraid of people being different. They're afraid of not understanding. Um, do you think that attitude is something which is specific to small towns like feathers? Oh, it's not to do with small towns at all. I think it's, um I just guess it's because every in the small town that I'm in, everybody knows everybody, Um, [00:05:00] and most of us are related. So, um, my town is full of Goss. Well, we have one shop which I work out. And when I came out as a gay there, of course, the old ladies behind the checkouts were telling everyone. So the word got gets around faster. But in big cities like Wellington, I found that if you most people are a lot more tolerant towards it. But they do look at you quite strangely, and people [00:05:30] are a little, um, trying to get the word. They're very hesitant to allow people to be different. Um, like you could be walking down the like if a guy was walking down the street wearing a dress. So this is a trans woman, and she's walking down the street wearing a dress, but hasn't [00:06:00] quite she doesn't quite pass yet. People will point her out, and they will think she's odd that you will get second glances. But it's a lot less, Uh, people don't point it out as much. They don't go. Oh, you are a and then curse or whatever. They're more likely to kind of just give you this weird look and edge around you. They don't want to confront you when there's all these other people around that could then confront them. [00:06:30] But I'm sure if you've got somebody alone or just with a small group of people that you wouldn't have that much difference. It doesn't really matter about big town, small town. It's just a kind of about the person that is mocking or the person that is doing the thing because not everyone is bold enough to kind of point someone out for being different. But some people are, and they will do that, and [00:07:00] that can be very painful. You use the word pass before What does that mean? Oh, to pass um, in the world of transgender people is to be able to go out in public and to be seen by everyone as the gender that you are and not the sex you were born as, um So it basically [00:07:30] means you're I don't wanna say doing a good job of being transgender, but I'm really lacking words. It's, um yeah, so that you are able to be seen in public as the gender that you are wanting to be as the gender you are and the sex you want to be, Um, without people kind of thinking otherwise is passing important [00:08:00] to most trans people. Do you think, uh, I don't know about everybody, but I'm pretty sure it's important to the majority of us who are at least the trans people who are, um, one gender or another gender. I mean, there are people who are non binary, which is totally cool, and they have their own kind of thing. But if you're wanting, if you're a if you're born a girl and you want to, um, be a man, [00:08:30] then you kind of wanna have everyone call you a guy and stuff, and it's really weird when they when you go into a supermarket and you order things and they kind of go, Oh, thank you, ma'am. And that's Yeah, it's, uh it's when it comes down to it. A lot of it's due to dysphoria, which is the discomfort and pain that you get [00:09:00] by being in a body that doesn't fit you. That doesn't, um, match what's in your head. And you're wanting to be this person that you have in your head. You want to have the person that you are in your head to be visible to everyone else. But you can't quite. You can't have that happen because of your [00:09:30] biology. You can't. Um, yeah, it's quite heart wrenching to just walk out on the street and have people kind of immediately go. Oh, that person has a high voice. Must be a girl. That person has boobs. Must be. I mean, I understand why I understand that you know the majority of people, so people [00:10:00] just make assumptions, but it's it it it It's still quite painful when, uh, people do get your pronouns wrong and stuff like that. What would you say to people in terms of advice for if someone that they know does come out as trans, uh, for the people, for the people that they're coming out to or the person that they are or [00:10:30] the person that's coming out. Um, but the people that they're coming out for the people, um, they're coming out to. So if somebody is coming out to you as Trans, please try your hardest not to cry in front of them. Is that something you have experienced? My grandmother burst into tears. Um, I come from a very religious family. Uh, my mom and my dad are pretty good. They're they're pretty Chill [00:11:00] with it all. I'm not my dad's first, uh, queer child. He hasn't, um I have an older half sister who's lesbian, and so it's kind of OK, And so II I didn't come out as Pan and Trans at the same time. I came out as, um, pansexual quite a number of years ago. And only this year I've come out to my parents as Trans only a few months ago, and I've been slowly building up courage to tell the more religious [00:11:30] parts of the family. And, uh, my mum cried. Not when I told her, but a little while after, and so did my grandmother and I understand the theory about why they would be sad, but I don't understand actually, how they are, Um, I get that in their heads. Sometimes it kind of happens like I'm losing a daughter. This [00:12:00] is horrible. She's like dead now. But in reality you still have your daughter. It's just your daughter is a son and they're just telling you that. And that's quite a difficult thing for them to hear. Um, when someone's coming out to you, just listen to them. It may be a little bit difficult at first, and it is probably gonna be a bit of a shock. But if they have gotten to the point [00:12:30] where they are willing to tell you and they're ready to confide in you and this is noting that this is one of the most terrifying things I can think of, Um, just as a necessity to keep going on and living a happy life is, you know, and then for somebody to kind of retaliate with anger or sudden sadness, what they really kind of want to hear. Is that OK? [00:13:00] I know it may be a little bit difficult to get used to but I'm gonna try and be OK with this and just gonna need to take some time and just think it over and and then hugging because, God, they need a hug. Um, what was coming out to friends like or peers rather than family? I kind of cheated. When I came out, I didn't come out to my friends in person. I came out to my friends on the Internet. [00:13:30] Um, because my friends are on the Internet. Um, I have two mates that I consider my closest friends. And they were the first two people I told and I told them in a mass chat. But it was just the three of us in the chat room, and I was like, Hey, I, uh because for a while I For a while I knew that there were. For years I'd known that there was something not quite right gender wise with me, and I kind of always put it down as either I was [00:14:00] neither gender or both gender, but I didn't know when they had already known before that I was going through this kind of weird gender weirdness in my head. And when I came out to them. They were kind of like, Oh, I'm so happy that you figured this out. I'm so grateful that you're no longer mentally kind of hitting your head against a brick wall [00:14:30] trying to discover yourself. How was that for you to hear? Oh, it was amazing. They were the first people that I told so to have instant. Yeah, that's fine. And just instant, somebody just taking it. And then they started calling me, um, by male pronouns immediately. And, um, I think one of the first things one of my friends says was Can I help you pick a new name? And I just burst [00:15:00] out crying. It was the most amazing I couldn't have asked for, Like a more confidence boosting first coming out as training. What about two people your age that aren't your close friends? Uh, I've had to come out to my class. Um, but luckily I am in a drama school. So, uh, a little showbiz little mantra is Everyone's just a little bit queer in drama. So, [00:15:30] um, they were pretty alright with it. Some people still call me by my birth name, and but I get that because you know they? They have known me for about a year before I go in. And you can't just expect people to suddenly switch. It doesn't work like that. It takes I still call myself on my birth name sometimes. Um, but they were pretty OK with it. There were some people who were a little bit, uh, [00:16:00] not OK. They they weren't They were OK with it. They just weren't They just didn't understand it. They weren't pleased with it. They weren't comfortable with it. They were kind of curious in a way. And when when you come out, I guess, um, people tend to think of Oh, there must be fun talking about everything. So they ask you really personal questions about being [00:16:30] trans and your sexuality, and you just kind of wanna tell them to bugger off. Um, but you can't because, you know, they they they are. They're not being curious to harm you. They're being curious because they want to understand. And as frustrating as it is that they don't really understand, you have to be a person and help make the world better by allowing them the opportunity to understand if that makes sense. So it's telling people my age is kind of [00:17:00] less frightening than telling, um, people older than me. People older than me tend to be not as open to the idea of people with their agenda being different than their sex and different sexualities. But people my age are pretty much OK with it. So yeah, I've had a I think I've had a pretty good round with people my own age. So in an ideal world, what would the perfect coming out process be? [00:17:30] Uh, the coming out process would not happen in a perfect world, Um, because it's just terrifying. I guess, um, coming out in a perfect world would be just it being a thing as simple as I'm going to dye my hair brunette, and I'm going to keep it like that kind of thing. But it it's [00:18:00] not because, yeah, I it's people make a really big deal out of it because it is a really big deal. But in a perfect world, you'd kind of hope that it wouldn't be. You'd kind of hope that it's like, OK, I respect that. I understand that Let's carry on with our lives. Let's move on. But that's not how things tend to happen. What can people both queer and and more mainstream communities do [00:18:30] to try and make the world a more perfect place for people coming out as either gender weird or sexuality wise? I think I think having more places that are kind of queer friendly. I've only recently discovered, um, trans groups in Wellington and I really wish there was more of them [00:19:00] around New Zealand because, like, it's, it's, it's it's great to kind of be among the community and with, um, people that are more mainstream gay. I guess it would be nice if they just kind of went OK. Now this person is struggling with You know what, people kind of what people call normal. [00:19:30] They're struggling with fitting into their these perfect little boxes that society has for them. They they don't fit either. So let's just support each other. Let's not go well. You didn't fit into their boxes, but you don't fit into our boxes, either. Let's just get rid of all the freaking boxes and just everyone has. Everyone has their own box, so we don't have boxes at all. Just it's it's silly how people [00:20:00] can just go? Well, yeah, I'm different, but my kind of different is better than you're different. My kind of different isn't as abnormal, my kind of different. You know, I've had people saying to me that God was OK with me being gay, but he isn't OK with you being Trans, and I don't understand that at all. It's M, mainly because I don't really understand [00:20:30] the whole bringing God into sexuality and gender. Anyway, that's just a whole different topic. But yeah, just realised that we're still humans and all humans should not be mean to other humans. When we're just trying to, everyone's trying to figure themselves out, and some people are just stuck in situations where they have figured themselves out. But they just can't physically [00:21:00] get to that point where they are themselves, physically or mentally even. And yeah.

IRN: 748
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_rainbows_lily.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004286
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089580
TITLE: Lily - Beyond Rainbows
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Jo Jackson / Grizz
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Beyond Rainbows (series); FtM; Jo Jackson / Grizz; Wellington; affirmation; binding; clothing; coming out; community; dysphoria; education; gender; gender identity; identity; internet; masculinity; minority; pronouns; school; trans; transexual; transgender; transition; youth; youtube. com
DATE: 10 November 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Lily talks about trans* issues and identity.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So what minorities are you a part of? In the queer community? Um, so I'm trans trend star. I don't use it, but, um, I guess I'm FDM, um female. I, uh, female born but male. Identifying, um, I guess also, I'm not really such a fan of the, like, gay, lesbian, like, sexuality kind of labels. I guess for me, I don't know if I'd call myself gay or straight because I'm born female, but identify male, um, and like, guys. [00:00:30] So, yeah, I guess I don't like the binary, like, gay lesbian sort of names of sexuality. So at what age did you, um, first start questioning gender? Um, for a long time before I knew what, like what it was like. I guess I learned what trends meant. Like a year ago. Um, but probably a lot earlier than that. Maybe when I was 10 or something that I start kind of questioning or being more confused [00:01:00] about my gender or like thinking or like in relation to other people. I think of myself as a guy, but kind of, you know, I understand why or not, like, not in a way that I thought I was Trans And nor that meant Did you tell anyone? Uh, no. How have people reacted like friends and family? Now that you have told some people? Uh, well, really Well, yeah. Um, yeah. Most people I haven't No one's really had a problem with it. Um, [00:01:30] I think the first thing my brother said he was because Because he's gay and he was like, What? So you still like boys, right? And I was like, Yep, And he was like, So we can go gay clubbing together. And so, um, yeah, they were all really supportive. Um, the only one, I guess my mum not angry, but more worried, but yeah, mostly in general, people are just excited and happy for me. Have you experienced any negative reactions or any, um, general harassment or anything like that from anyone? [00:02:00] No. No, I haven't. Um, So how has been trans at school? Been for you? Have any teachers asked any questions? Or is it Is it difficult being because you go to a coed school, don't you? Um I guess I'm not really. I guess I'm only recently kind of coming out. So there are friends at school who know. But I guess on the whole the teachers don't, um I guess I'm still like people. Still, I don't know, I still use female pronouns And that because I'm not really [00:02:30] I don't know at that stage yet. Uh, so most of them don't know. Um, I guess. Like, I used to kind of confusing when I started school because everyone thought I was a boy. Um And so I guess teachers got a bit confused by that because they said on the roll. But everyone called me he because they thought I was a guy. And so But now I guess some of them know what I'm. So do you have plans to let people know in the future or Yeah, I guess I find that awkward because, um, I don't wanna have to [00:03:00] keep telling everyone like it's a big deal. Like coming. Having to, like, come out is kind of, um, to each person like I sort of So I guess I'm trying to tell people in a way that it's like becomes common knowledge to people who tell people So it's not such like a I don't want it to be a big deal telling people why um, I guess it's just like, uh, I don't know. I just feel I just feel awkward making like a I don't know how to say it. Um, and [00:03:30] I also feel like I don't want it to be like, say it in a way that it seems like a big deal because I feel like it shouldn't be really It's kind of big deal for me, but it doesn't have to be something that, like, Oh, I can't even describe it. I don't know. It doesn't do a big deal for the M I field. Um, yeah, and I just feel awkward, like bringing it up Like, How do you say it? I guess in a way. That's kind of casual. And how do you tend to say it? Um, [00:04:00] I don't know. I tend to like I don't really like saying I'm trans, since it's such a broad like vague and everyone defines it themselves. So I guess I like to say, I don't really feel like a girl. I want to be a boy. It's more the way I say it. Um, how do you feel? Like you fit in the general queer community, not the transpacific part of it. OK, um [00:04:30] I don't know. I'm not really hugely involved in queer communities as such. Like, I have queer friends. Um, but yeah, I guess I'm not. I've I've kind of heard about the idea that there's a little bit of like, um, I guess trans isn't really get noticed in the general like queer community. It seems to me, or, like, not really normally talked about. I've never thought of it as being queer until recently. Um, [00:05:00] queer for me was normally just like gay or lesbian. Uh, yeah, but I guess I'm not. I don't know a lot about the the community. I don't really hang out as a queer community as such. Why don't you think that trans fits in so well, Um, it's something that doesn't fit in. I guess it's just like when people talk about LGBT that, like, I guess when they talk about queer like my thought until recently, has always been gay. Lesbian? That's what that means. Um, and I feel like [00:05:30] that's kind of how it's always seen. People say LGBT rights. Really what they mean normally is gay and lesbian rights. Um, yeah. I don't feel like trends is really a noticed part. Do you think that's a good thing or a bad thing? Um, not a bad thing. I feel like there's a lot more like progress with the gay lesbian. Like, I guess, rights And, like, publicity. I knew what gay lesbian was a long time ago, but I only learned what trends was a year ago. Uh, [00:06:00] yeah. What do you think we can do to make trends more accepted in the General LGBT community? Um, I guess it's more. I think the key thing, actually, I guess, is the education. Like they teach you a little bit about this stuff at school, but they don't really, I guess, introduce you to the ideas of gender identity. Much. Um, I guess, Like if someone had come come to our school and done a talk or something or [00:06:30] teachers had taught us about it, uh, and kind of accepting, like everyone has their own gender identity sort of way would have been really helpful. What sort of information did you receive at school about this sort of thing? No, I can't think of any thing. No, because I didn't I didn't learn about it through school either. So I learned better on the Internet. Really? Do you think that's true for most Trans people? How do you think most trans people get their information if it's not through school? Um, [00:07:00] I don't know. Uh, I don't talk to a lot of trans people about that. I guess so. I'm not. I'm not sure how other people get the information. I know there's a bit of a, um, YouTube community, Uh, which is sort of is how I learned about it, like lots of trans guys who document their transitions on YouTube and talk about what it's like. Um, so I know about that route, but I don't know much about what other Trans people. So did you find [00:07:30] the, um, online sources of information particularly valuable like that? YouTube. Yeah, for me, YouTube is definitely I don't know the most helpful, because rather than kind of like a textbook like this is what it is. This is what it means. It's actually like people's like experiences of being Trans, and it's more something you can relate to and like, learn about the different ways of being changed and the different learn about what it's actually like and relate to stuff rather than kind of learning about how it's defined. [00:08:00] And, I don't know, it's more of a personal way of learning than like a Yeah, like a textbook kind of way learning. Which is why I thought it was helpful. Have you thought about putting your own videos out on YouTube to educate other people? Yeah, it sort of better. I think the good thing is that I'd just be scared about who would see them And like, how much I want to say, Um, yeah. So you've kind of got to be for me. I feel like I've got to be out with everyone, which I pretty much am now, Um, so maybe, [00:08:30] uh, are you scared of finding out? Um, as long as you're finding out, I don't mind, who knows? But I guess it's just the stuff about it. Like the details about it, that is that That I guess, Um I just feel awkward people knowing Yeah, about like that stuff about it. Um, like family. Mostly, I guess. Like transitional details and stuff or yeah, and just about, like, dysphoria [00:09:00] and like, that kind of stuff just feels really awkward. for people that you know well to hear about that stuff. I guess. So what is dysphoria? What was dysphoria? Um, just like being unhappy or for me? It's just about being unhappy about, uh, my sex and how people see me and how I see myself. Um, and just being Yeah, just being unhappy about when I don't have facial hair or I don't have, like, I don't know, the male body. Um, and just like [00:09:30] the stuff. Yeah. Just feeling uncomfortable about that. Yeah. Is that a thing? Which a lot of trans people experience that, you know? Yeah, I think so. Well, gender, this warrior is kind of how I've heard Trans as being kind of defined almost as someone who has gender dysphoria. Um, yeah. So I think, yeah. So would you say that it's a tough time realising or, um, going through gender dysphoria and going through existing in a body [00:10:00] which is different to 11 expects. Yeah, I think it's confusing because when everyone tells you you're female and says to you, it's confusing to feel weird about that. Like, I guess it's also part of my dysphoria when someone says she or I'm in the girl's room or the girls toilets or whatever you get reminded of it every day. And for a long time, I didn't sort of realise why or what it was. Um, until I kind of realised I was trans because the thing is, it's so reaffirmed the thing that you're [00:10:30] female and how you look and stuff. And so, yeah, it's kind of around you all the time, and it makes it kind of worse. So you talked about people calling you she before are pronouns um really important to you? Do you think or yeah. I mean, I had this thing like like when I was younger, when people would call me. And it was sort of like, this weird feeling of like, yes, but also, like, this is awkward because I'm always lying to you like No, no, what it is. That sort of the pronoun isn't really important because of the pronoun. [00:11:00] But for the thing that it represents, the saw you as a guy is kind of why it's important. Yeah, So in an ideal world, people would see you as a guy. Um, yeah, for me, it's almost more important that I see him as a guy like that. I can look in the mirror and feel like I look like a guy. But when someone calls me he that's kind of a reassurance that that's true. I guess if that makes sense, I don't know if that makes sense. It does. [00:11:30] OK, Um, what other things do you find reaffirming of your gender identity other than pronouns? Um, I guess Like like when you wear guys clothes or have guys haircuts? Um, like, I guess the thing is that I've always felt embarrassed, like I've always, um but I always like the guy's clothes and like and stuff. But when I go into a store, I feel really awkward going into the boys section. I've kind of started doing that. Um, [00:12:00] yeah, that kind of makes you feel better. But again, that's sort of like a good and bad like, because when you wear a guy's clothes and you look at yourself and you're like I can see like when you can see that you can kind of you can still see your hips and you can see that stuff. You're sort of like it's bitter and worse cos it's worse because it you also remember how you don't always fit into guys's clothes. Um, but yeah. So sometimes that can help, um, finding Oh, like, uh, fattening your chest. I guess. [00:12:30] So. Do you use a binder for that, too? Yeah. Um, binding is interesting. Like I try not to do it a lot, because I don't know. I've kind of heard that it can be bad for you in the long term. Um, but I feel it's almost addictive. Binding, like, once you bind once, you're just like, Oh, my God, this is so much better. And you just want to bind at home, like, even like no one's around. But somehow it's I don't know. It feels like better when you're binding. Um, yeah. So would you say [00:13:00] that binding and other presentation things are important to you and seeing yourself as a more masculine person? Yeah, well, yeah, It makes you feel better. Yeah. How have people reacted to you? Changing your appearance and the clothes that you wear and the haircuts that you have over time? Um, I haven't really changed a lot. Like, um, I don't know everyone. My family's always been frustrated, [00:13:30] like trying to make me wear dresses places and I'll just like, I don't know, complain a lot. Um, I've always I don't know. I've always worn, like, the most Mexican clothes I can and have the most. Sort of, like, I don't know, I shave my head in year eight secretly, mostly because I wanted to join it. Um, so, yeah, I've kind of always reached as a guy and had my hair as sort of much like a guy as I kind of could, um, you talked about being put in dresses, or was that a particularly stressful [00:14:00] experience for you? There wasn't a good time, Particularly. I thought it was interesting. Like someone someone called you pretty That just like that is the worst, um, or that kind of anything? Yeah. Like specifically female. That they would. Especially when I wear a dress and they say it looks nice and shut up. No, it doesn't. Um, yeah. So it was not a good time. So what would you say to people who aren't trans with regards to advice on how to treat people if they [00:14:30] are coming out as trans or if they, um if they're telling you that they want you to use different pronouns or a different name or anything? Um, yeah. I don't know. It's it's really nice to have a positive reaction. Um, I can see how sometimes it's hard to get, like, hard to understand. Um, when you're not Trans, uh, I find it really hard to explain to people and just describe, like what it's like. Um, so I guess just to be, [00:15:00] yeah, as supportive as you can. And even if you don't understand it, just believe that it's not a good time of being Trans and that, yeah, it's kind of Yeah, be as supportive as you can and try and learn about it. Um, yeah, so you can understand it. How would you recommend people to learn about it? Um well, I always suggest YouTube. Um, there's just a really nice way of hearing, like inside experience of what it's like, [00:15:30] uh, people. A lot of people on YouTube are really honest about, like what it's like to be trans and a lot of really great information that they kind of give you about it. So, yeah, I've been there. And what about, um, names and pronouns? Yeah, again. That's a thing like that's really hard, Um, like when you're trained, it's kind of hard to accept that it's probably hard for other people as well like, So it's probably hard, understand, if it's hard for them to kind of like, get used to that, Um, [00:16:00] but, you know, like, do your best. And when you muck up just to, like, remind them that you're not mucking up because you're not supporting them. But just that sometimes it's hard just to, I don't know, say, the new phone or whatever, like, but yeah, just as much as you can to try to do that is really helpful.

IRN: 751
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_rainbows_kennedy.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004285
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089579
TITLE: Kennedy - Beyond Rainbows
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Jo Jackson / Grizz
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Beyond Rainbows (series); Jo Jackson / Grizz; Nelson; Wellington; coming out; discrimination; employment; fear; friends; gender; gender identity; gender-neutral; genderqueer; heteronormativity; hormone replacement therapy (HRT); mana; minority; non-binary; parents; pronouns; queer; queer straight alliance (QSA); relationships; school; single sex schools; stigma; surgery; transgender; transition
DATE: 1 November 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Nelson, Nelson, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Kennedy talks about pan-sexuality and being gender queer.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Do you think that the queer community is very accepting of people that are in gender and sexual minorities within it? Uh, sometimes I would not say all the time. Um, there's a I think in terms of gender stuff, there's a lot of kind of trans sectional kind of stuff like and all that. And like people like some weird hierarchy where some trans people or some queer people or something, have decided [00:00:30] that you have to be trans enough to be considered trans at all. What do you mean by trans? Like you have to have transitioned and had surgery and be on hormones? Or at least be willing to do that until you can be considered trans enough, like there's a lot of sectioning kind of stuff and it's not Is that from within the Trans community itself? Yeah, yeah, And, um, you know, the rest of the community is not all that accepting. Um, I guess it differs where you [00:01:00] go. Like I I've been a lot more accepted in, say, Wellington than here in Nelson or anything smaller. Um, and you know, it's not. It's not perfect anywhere, but, um, the queer community and other places definitely seem more capable of understanding that identity is very large. Do you think that that is something which is specific to being in a big city? Do you think it's generally more accepted in larger cities? [00:01:30] Um, I think so. Um, I couldn't say why. I think it's I. I think it's just more of a, um, you know, there's a lot more diversity in a big city. Um, whereas in small cities, kind of, you know, everybody knows everybody. Um, if anything changes, then everybody knows And that kind of stuff, and often it scares them in smaller cities. But in big cities, there's kind of, um, yeah, you know, more diverse. You've got to you've got to learn to be more open to things. Not that everybody [00:02:00] is, but, you know, So you talked about, um, people being scared before Is that people within the queer community do you think or people more in mainstream communities? Um, probably I'd say more in mainstream. Um, but definitely in the queer community as well. Especially, um, because queer people kind of, you know, say, I, um I told somebody in the queer community that I was gender queer and they kind of tried [00:02:30] to accept it, but not quite. And I think that's more of a, um there's a lot of I don't know, Like I said, stigma or something around it, Um, because it's just not heard about much. And, you know, I think where people kind of hide behind Oh, well, we're queer. We know everything. Um, and use it as kind of an excuse to, um, not learn about things and to not stop being afraid of these things. And instead of actually opening up to it, they just kind of hide from it. But they have some excuse for it. [00:03:00] Um, would you say that you face more discrimination or or oppression? Um, generally than someone who would be part of the more mainstream queer community being a minority? Yeah, I guess so. Um I mean, I guess from outside communities. Yeah, um, I guess a lot of, um you know, even in queer communities, the big issue is pronouns. Um, what are pronouns for those who don't [00:03:30] know, Um, basically, what you prefer to be referred to as so say, um, like, he she they they here that kind of stuff. Um, and I use unit pronouns. And, um, you know, so you prefer to be called. They and them. Yeah, Um, so, you know, I think a lot of stuff around pronouns is difficult for people because, um, I think they're so used to having a like, kind [00:04:00] of binary pronouns being used all the time. I can understand being used to that. But, um, I can I can't understand refusing to try and use other pronouns for the people. Like, um, I get mis gendered all the time in terms of pronouns, like people just using the wrong ones. When I specifically said not to, um in the queer Community Queer community as well as, um, the more mainstream community, It's, um not, you [00:04:30] know, desirable and II. I have said some stuff about it, but, um, I feel that because people don't necessarily understand a lot about gender identity, um, even in the queer community, they're not, You know, they're not all that prone to accepting it. And therefore, I guess they find it difficult to respect somebody's identity because they don't I. I also say they don't agree with it, but they just don't They don't get it. They don't get how important it is. Would you [00:05:00] say that it's more, um, an issue of understanding than of purposefully being hurtful. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Um, I think a lot of the people that I've come across anyway, um, have just had more difficulty understanding a lot about identity. You know, um, a lot of them have, um you know, they just kind of become part of the queer community, and they don't, um, you know, they're not as, [00:05:30] um, kind of, well, educated about all the stuff, as others are that have been in there for a while, or, um, you know, so I think that they're just new to it, and they don't really know it. And I think there are some of them that, um, you know, as time goes on, they realise, Oh, you know, this is really important. I need to I need to start, um, respecting this and trying to do it and correcting myself if I'm not. But then there's other people who just I think it's not intentionally hurting people. It's just they think it doesn't really matter because they don't get how you know how hurtful [00:06:00] it is. So, in an ideal world. What do you think it would be like to come out as someone who is in a gender minority? Um, in an ideal world, I guess it would just, you know, you wouldn't have to, or you could just, you know, say to somebody, um, you know, Hi, I'm non binary or something like that. And I use these pronouns and I'll just do it And, [00:06:30] you know, at least attempt to do it and then correct themselves and everything like that, and actually kind of respect how you identify and respect that it is a real thing, not just something that you've made up to be quick and different. Um, I mean, we're a long way from it, I guess. But, um, I think with the queer community not really trying as hard as they could to understand and respect non-binary people, we're even further away. Like they really [00:07:00] need to. Um, you know, nobody's really gonna take us seriously about it if we don't take ourselves seriously. And how do you think we can achieve that? So, what steps can we take as people who are part of the queer community to try and make it a more accepting place for people and minorities. Um, I guess just not kind of just really listening to them instead of just kind of hear it. Like, really, [00:07:30] really hear what they say. Um, you know, if, um, if somebody calls you out on pronouns or something, then listen to them and ask, You know, if you know, ask what they prefer you to call them. If somebody changes their name to something that they, you know, feels a lot more comfortable for them, don't use their old name or tell people their old name or something like that and disrespect them. Um, I think we just need to kind of stop, [00:08:00] I don't know, like stop, um, kind of invalidating how people feel by saying, Well, you know, we're putting the blame for us screwing things like, you know, screwing up pronouns or names or something onto the person whose name or pronoun we're screwing up. You talked before about, uh, names. Do you think names are very important to people who are in the trans community? Yeah, definitely. Um, I know [00:08:30] that for me, Um, changing my name from what my parents called me, um felt really freeing and, um, more independent. Especially because, you know, I haven't told them that, um, I'm doing. Graham told them that I've changed my name for people in the queer community and my friends and all that kind of stuff. Um, and so that was really kind of freeing and made me feel like I've actually got my own identity like I am, you know, my own person. Um, [00:09:00] and it's, you know, the name that I have now is a lot more neutral than what I did have. Um and I think that's really important to me. Um, having a kind of a neutral name, because I can I don't know what I'm gonna be every day and that kind of stuff. Um, And I know that because, you know, names are what you are always associated with. It's a like, you know, your main identifier. Um, you don't want that Not, You know, you are clashing with how [00:09:30] you feel and who you are. You talked before about, um, your relationship with your parents and telling them that you are part of a gender minority. Is that something which is difficult or a lot of people have to go through. Do you think in your situation I think that it is? You know, it's really difficult, um, being not in the closet, I guess. But not being out because, you know, I've got a kind of signal to my friends, and they come over [00:10:00] like, you know, don't call me this Here, um, and use these pronouns and all this kind of stuff, Um, and try and, like, section off different parts of my life for my parents. And, um, I did uni applications, and I used, uh, Kennedy on those, and they got sent home and I had to try and get the mail before my parents did. And that kind of stuff, um and so that's it's really hard not being out. But at the same time, I think it's easier than it would be if I was because, [00:10:30] um, you know, now I've just got to kind of hide things, But should they find out at this point, you know, they're not very accepting of that kind of stuff. Should they find out at this point, I don't think that it'll be it'll go down very well. Um, I don't really like to think about what would happen? Because I feel like maybe a blow out of proportion, but I'm just really scared of it. Um, and I know that a lot of people in the same situation, um, often, you know, they're really scared to. Not [00:11:00] necessarily. I think it's more than not knowing what would happen. Um, because, as I said before, people are really scared by this kind of thing. Um, it's not something you hear about every day. So especially with parents, Um, you know, you feeling like your identity doesn't exist and them not thinking that it does, um, you know, coming out to them or something they've never heard of is just going to be finding for them, and they may not react. Well, I mean, I've heard good stories of, um, non binary people coming [00:11:30] out. Um, but I think for me, I'm just kind of scared of what could happen. Do you think it's very fair that people have to live in this fear? I not at all. I don't think it's, you know, it's not fair at all. I mean, I've become a really good liar, but, um, and it's, you know, I guess you kind of gain certain things like knowing how to hide things should you need to and that kind of stuff, But it's not desirable. I mean, I just [00:12:00] want, like, I don't want to have to live in this kind of secrecy. Like, I feel like I'm living some weird double life, but I'm not like it's kind of him. Um and I just, you know, I, I think I think everybody just needs to like, I If I could I would just make it so that everyone just knew about this stuff like they wouldn't have to go through with the education and the stages and stuff they just knew. And it was just OK, but, you know, [00:12:30] no. How, um are your friends and peers at accepting who you are because you've talked about your family? Um, most of my friends are really good about it. Um, mainly the ones in the queer community and some others. Um, I, um when I got together with my girlfriend, um, a while ago, I was still going by my old name to her, and [00:13:00] I was really worried because everybody else was calling me. Um, you know, this other name and So I you know, she kind of approached me one day and I was really scared of telling her because I was afraid of what she'd say. I was afraid that she wouldn't accept it and all that kind of stuff and had all these fears. And then she kind of approached me one day and said, Would you prefer that I call you this Because everybody else does. And I'm not too sure if that's, you know, a preferred thing. And I just said yes. And then she did. And so that was really nice. Um, most of my other friends have been really kind of accepting, and, [00:13:30] um, go along with it when I change my name and respect whatever pronouns I use that day. Um, and then there are others who don't know, and I've or others that say, You know, um, I know you as this. So I don't want to call you what name you prefer, because it doesn't feel comfortable for me. Um, I guess it's a mixed reaction. I try to hang out with the ones that you know are good about it. What about other aspects of your life? So [00:14:00] school or work. How do people understand or treat you because of your minority at work Nobody really knows about. You know, they all call me by my old name, so they don't really know about the gender side of things. But is that a choice you've made? Yeah. Um, I think I just couldn't deal with the, um, with all the drama around it because they're all people I work with are very, um, kind of heteronormative and, um, all that kind of stuff. [00:14:30] And, um, I yeah, so they, you know, they use my old name and, um, female pronouns and that kind of stuff, um, which is fine. Um, I've learned to kind of accept it at work. Um, but then I get really nervous when people kind of like people that I know, like from the queer community. Come in. And they call me this name, and I'm like, Oh, no, OK, I. I do them first and all that kind of stuff. Um, I don't really know how I could take it if, [00:15:00] um, people at work found out, but, um, like it just because when they found out that I wasn't straight, they, um, weren't exactly you know, there were some of them that were kind of, um they were fine with it, but fine with it in the way that they wanted to parade me around to all their friends and go Oh, look, I've got a I've got a gay friend and all this kind of stuff, And then there were the other ones who just kind of refused to talk to me and were really horrible about me and set their friends on me. That kind of stuff. Um, so I just don't want to kind of go through that again with [00:15:30] gender, Um, at school. Um, well, I go to an all girls school, so that's, you know, wear skirts and stuff. And that's not really good on days that I don't like, just can't wear skirts. Um, and they all use my old name and, um, you know, female pronouns and all that kind of stuff. But, um, again, I've just kind of learned to accept it there. Um And I run a QS a at my school, and some of the girls that come to the QS a also [00:16:00] attend the group, the community QS A in which I'm known by a different name than I am at school, so that's difficult. And I have to kind of come out to them whenever they come along there. And it's confusing and you see why I feel like I'm living a double life. It's, um I guess it's it'll be a lot easier when I can kind of leave and just just use whatever name and everything works for me.

IRN: 752
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/beyond_rainbows_sebastian.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004284
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089578
TITLE: Sebastian - Beyond Rainbows
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Jo Jackson / Grizz
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Beyond Rainbows (series); Fielding; FtM; Jo Jackson / Grizz; Manawatū; School's Out (Wellington); Wellington; cis male; coming out; community; education; family; gay; gender; gender identity; hormone replacement therapy (HRT); internet; marriage; marriage equality; minority; non-binary; oppression; privilege; queer; support; surgery; transgender; youth
DATE: 27 October 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Sebastian talks about trans-masculinity.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So I'm Sebastian. I'm 21 years old, and I live in Wellington, and I'm a non-binary trans masculine person. Um, I was born into her body, assigned as female at birth. So I have, you know, all the generally associated bits and bobs. Um, but I don't really feel like a woman. I've never really felt like a woman. Um, but I'm not a binary trans man, either. I'm sort of somewhere on that side of the spectrum, but, you know, floating around and dancing with some glitter. [00:00:30] Um, do you think that there are many people within the queer community that have similar experiences to you? Absolutely. I know that, um, you know, within trans people as a group, I mean, there's so many different ways to be Trans, but, I mean, definitely, personally, I know at least a few people with similar gender identities, but, um, that being said, it's kind of a like trans people as a group, you know, are are pretty, pretty much a minority within the queer community. And, like, we're [00:01:00] often left out of stuff. What sort of stuff? Um, well, I mean, it feels like a lot of time, you know, people will go. Oh, you know, I'm all for, like, LGBT rights. And like, LGBT issues, it's mostly LNG issues. Sometimes B issues. Not really T issues. Um, a lot of I mean, this is I I'm speaking, OK, I guess I'm kind of, um, smashing a couple of things together here, which is firstly, there's an experience of, like, institutionalised oppression [00:01:30] and other. And and then there's also, like, interpersonal stuff. So, like within the institutional thing, you've got the structure of queer people as a group being, you know, um, sort of they they're the other in terms of how our society is sort of structured, it's mostly structured around this idea of normality, being generally speaking, white, middle class, straight, sustained, able bodied, etcetera. You know all the kind [00:02:00] of things when we talk about notions of privilege, basically the idea of normalcy, or like the ideal person, or like the person who populate society. The person that we care about is the one who fits all those privileges. And so to be clear, you're already you know, you're already away from that and then again to be trans and the community when I say people often say, like the gay community. And to me, what that means is whites as gay dudes with money generally and [00:02:30] like. That's fine. Um, so when I when I say, um, I basically mean the opposite of Trans so that somebody who identifies with the body and gender that they were assigned when they were born. So, like most people, generally speaking are sis. Um, when I say trans, that's short for transgender or an older term transsexual, which isn't used as much now and generally refers to people who have had surgeries. Um, [00:03:00] but most people use transgender now because it's like less specific. But, um, transgender basically means that you don't identify with the body or the gender that you were assigned at birth, and then within that, you know, it's it's a it's a really good umbrella term because when when I say it, like most people will think of traditional FTM or NTF, which is female to male or male to female transgender people, Um, who are undergoing, you know, a binary transition from male to female or vice versa. Um, but then [00:03:30] it also encompasses a lot of people like me who don't identify with that gender binary of male or female? Um, you know, a rigid sort of dichotomy. Um, yeah. So that's kind of what I mean when I say that, I think see, the thing is like, you forget that, um, when you get so like, you know, because being trans is just a really central part of who I am, and it's a vocabulary that I become very familiar with, and I just kind of throw it around and you, I mean, and that you forget that there's a lot that you're communicating that people don't necessarily understand. [00:04:00] And I mean that that already is kind of it demonstrates how, um, even the vocabulary I use the very basic structures of how I describe myself are misunderstood by so many people. Um, that that already shows you You know how much how it is sort of treated as being a minority group because, like, um, it sort of leads Definitely. I felt like people make a lot of wrong assumptions about me, which is something that I've talked about, um, with you before, I think. But also just generally, [00:04:30] um, you know, like I look, I'm I'm on, I'm on testosterone at the moment. So, um, this isn't as structured as how it would be, but, you know, um, I'm on testosterone at the moment, um, which is part of what we call H RT or hormone replacement therapy. Um, And for people who are trans masculine or, you know, FTM or who were born female and who are transitioning, um, that's the hormone they take because, you know, it's the male sex hormone. Um, so I've just started taking that, [00:05:00] um but because that will basically lead me to go through, like, a second puberty. Pretty much a male puberty. Um, but because I've Oh, this bleach in my hands. OK, testosterone, testosterone. Um, I'm [00:05:30] taking that, um, because I've just started. There aren't very many changes at this stage. Um, but so people sort of still view me as, like, a butch woman. Or, um, my endocrinologist said that he thinks I look like a 14 year old boy, which is funny. Um, I'm, like, 21 so, you know, but, um, I totally see that. I do. I do. Kind of like a 14 year old boy. Um how do you feel being in the minority of Trans people, which [00:06:00] is itself in a minority. Is that difficult? Yeah. Um, firstly, I guess, like, Yeah, I would agree that that's the case being non-binary because a lot of trans people are binary, but, um, do you find the trans community is very accepting of non-binary people? Uh, it really I mean, I don't think that there is such a thing as like the trans community is like, AAA monolithic kind of thing. Um, the groups which I choose to associate with, um are But that's purely [00:06:30] because when people aren't, then when people don't understand me, then I'm like, Oh, I don't really wanna hang out with you. You know, I choose to distance myself from those kind of groups That being said is definitely like, uh, structures, which are, like, you know, the centre of the community or kind of what people view as being part of the community. And generally speaking in Wellington, I found those to be pretty good, um, so that I'm lucky in that experience. But there's definitely difficulties with it, just in terms of, [00:07:00] um, just again that basic like lack of understanding, like people not picking up what you're putting down with your gender expression, which is on a on a personal level. It can. It can be a frustrating and it can be even a triggering experience because you're sort of like, Oh, people don't see me how I see myself and that can be really upsetting. But then also in terms of dealing with official things, you know, um, again, a lot of things are really focused around the binary. And even though we are coming a bit, you know, there's been progress made [00:07:30] with, you know, transgender activism and ex and acceptance and stuff. There's still it's still like people were Oh, yeah, there's like male and female sis men and women. And then there's Oh, there's trans people, but generally they're still understood as a binary trans person. They're understood as wanting to be C rather than being Trans, actually being a different experience that isn't always about anything to do with being sis. You know, you talked about, um, being trans in Wellington and your experience with that. [00:08:00] Do you think that in places in New Zealand other than Wellington it would be harder to go through what you have? Absolutely. Um I mean, I'll talk a little bit about like my background. So I'm from Fielding, which is a pretty small town, Um, in the it's about 20 minutes away from Palmerston North. Um, so it's the kind of place where you know, people from Fielding go to Palmerston North for fun. So it kind of tells you a lot about the place. No, I mean, it was it was a good place to grow up and that, like, it was really safe [00:08:30] and like, you know, um, that was all fine, but in terms of, it's pretty. It's a pretty conservative area. And I mean, it was hard even to kind of come out as queer because I didn't really start realising that I was trans until I learned what it was to be Trans. And that was when I was around 16, and I sort of learned from like, vloggers on YouTube and the Internet and stuff. Um, they definitely weren't local resources for trans people. They weren't even for queer people. So even when I was like, Oh, I'm gay like [00:09:00] I was lucky and then I wasn't bullied for it, but I was definitely, like one of maybe two or three queer people in my school of 1400 or openly queer people. Um, and I was only not bullied because, like, I was fairly well liked. Um, yeah, what do you think we can do to make it easier for people who are trans or non-binary coming out and going through that process that you've just talked about? Sure. Well, I think the main thing, um, is education [00:09:30] because the most difficult thing that I've encountered is just a lack of understanding because it's exhausting to have to, you know, educate people about these very basic truths about who you are every time you encounter any person like and I mean, you never know what they think about gender, that you, because you never know what their experiences are that you can never really know how people will react to you telling them. And it's so frustrating. It has to be something that you have to tell rather than just something which people understand. So I think education. Um, I'm actually [00:10:00] an educator with schools out. Um, so I do I go into high schools? Um, when they have classes on, you know, gender diversity and I. I talk about my personal story and stuff. Um, and I've found I've had really good feedback from that. And I think having that kind of education that schools are does is is just so important. And they because it's like you really it really? You just need everyone to, like, learn about it and understand it, and then it would be fine. But I mean, [00:10:30] that's such a difficult thing to implement. So I think what schools are doing schools art is doing is really great. And it's a really great start. Um, and I think also on a like, just on a personal level with people. Um, you know, it's important for people who are who know trans people in their lives to be supportive and like take on some of that burden of educating people as well, because it's really hard to like, you know, constantly have to justify your existence. But yeah, I think [00:11:00] the main thing is education. How do you think? In an ideal world, you coming out as Trans and, um, taking changes to yourself would occur rather than with the issues you've highlighted. I wouldn't I mean, I've been lucky in that my family has been pretty supportive. Um, my younger brother has been very supportive. My mother is finding it a little difficult, partly just because again of a lack of understanding, Um, but in I, in an ideal world, I wouldn't have to come out because [00:11:30] gender would be much more fluid than it is now. Um, yeah, but I guess in terms of a world in which I had to come out, I got lucky in my experience. Um, because I know a lot of trans people who have had, you know, they've been kicked out of their homes. They've been, like, horrendously bullied at school. Yeah, there's been a lot of really horrible stuff that's happened to trans people, both historically and now, but, um, I've been lucky to not have to deal with too much of that, but it would [00:12:00] be really great if my mum, instead of being upset and like worried, was just like, Oh, OK, cool. You know, I'm glad that you're taking the steps you need to like, be true to yourself and be happy with how you are in the world. And I think, um, in an ideal world, a lot less of that coming out conversation would be education because that it it's so hard to change because the way people view gender is is so fixed and is so fundamental to a lot of the way our society is structured and it's something which is taught from a very young [00:12:30] age, um, and to sort of challenge that is hard and to challenge that when you're telling someone someone very personal. So when you're telling someone something very personal about yourself, you know, it's just it's another burden. If you could say anything to the trans community as a whole or different trans people in Wellington about being non binary or about acceptance, what do you think that would be? I [00:13:00] think, um, that it's important to trust that people know about, like, know themselves and they know what's best for themselves and for respecting the choices that people like. It's important to respect the choices that people make. I think I would guess I would just encourage people to not be instead of being like, surprised and defensive when somebody differs from your expectations or what you think you know about stuff, celebrate it and be inquisitive and [00:13:30] warm and try and you know, learn about it without being invasive to the person, obviously, because it can be really stressful. Do you think that differs from what you would say to queer people as a whole or some people? What I would say to queer people is probably that, but with slightly firm like slightly harsher words, perhaps because I feel like they should know better, Um, again, it's that thing of like when you are in a in [00:14:00] A in an oppressed group, Um, you kind of it can be really disappointing and even more hurtful to be treated poorly by someone of another or even the same oppressed group than it is to be treated poorly by the person who's oppressing you because you expect that, you know that's gonna happen, you know? And it it's kind of like being stabbed in the back by someone you thought was your ally. So to queer people, I'd say trans people exist. Firstly, Trans people aren't like [00:14:30] weird and crazy versions of queer people. Trans people are just people trying to be happy, the same as you are, and please stop leaving us out of your marriage equality campaign. I don't even care that much about marriage, but it's really annoying. How do you think trans people have started with? Oh, sure. Um so recently in the AC T, which is the Australian capital territory in Australia. Um, obviously, um, some same sex marriage laws were passed and in order to because they're gonna get a high court challenge from the federal government. [00:15:00] Um, because the federal government is like, No, your same sex marriage laws are unconstitutional, so we're gonna challenge them. Um, so in order to have the law stand a high court challenge, the AC T were like, Oh, OK, well, we'll just specifically exclude trans people from the legislation, and then maybe the laws will stand. So we got kind of thrown under the bus on that one. So I'm kind of mad about that. But that's an example of the kind of, you know, the [00:15:30] fact that I mean also in in the discourse around marriage equality. It's called gay marriage, like a lot of the time, which is inaccurate, you know, it's about a lot more than that. So what do you think it's about? Um, it's about, I mean again. I'm not I'm not even really that into marriage. But marriage equality is about the same rights for everybody. And not the same rights for straight people and gay people. Yeah, um, so do the queer people would say, you know, remember we're here [00:16:00] And remember that it's not all about you. I mean, and also, you know, we're we're not the same. I mean, but a lot of overlaps, like a lot of trans people, are queer. I'm a queer trans person. Um, but yeah, it just kind of sucks to be left out of a community that you feel like you should be part of, um, yeah. And then also to assist people and destroy people just Oh, my God. Just too much to say. So much to say. Um [00:16:30] I mean, yeah. I mean, there's, you know, there's a lot of hurt there that I think that says people and straight people need to acknowledge and need to remember when they're interacting with queer people, even on an everyday basis. Because when I meet people at parties and they go Oh, my God, this is so cool. I've never met a transgender before, you know, like, don't treat me like a weird, exotic like animal. And as though I'm just another person. I'm just hanging out at a party, [00:17:00] you know, like I'll talk to you about it because it interests me and it's relevant to me and being trans and gender and exploring gender and talking about gender. I love all that stuff, you know. It's very interesting to me, but I don't want to be interrogated about how I identify when I'm just hanging out. Or, to be honest, I don't really want that either, But yeah, So, um, I guess to all the people who really to anyone who's talking to anyone, just just take a breath [00:17:30] and think about what you're saying to another person and think about the historical context of what you're saying and the what? What, what? You know what institutions and structures of power are backing up. Various things that you were saying just basically, you think you're just having a lovely chat with someone, but you're not. You're re enacting a whole bunch of power relations all the time, and that's an important thing to consider. Do you find you get asked a lot of invasive questions? Oh my God, all the time. Like this whole interview? [00:18:00] No, Um, I do. Yeah. I. I, um People ask me like I mean, one of the most like, compelling stories. I think about it that I have is that I was walking along one night with my friends, and it was it was reasonably late. It was like, maybe midnight. Um, we'd seen a movie or something, and we were looking at walking along Courtney Place, and these two girls came up to me, and I didn't know who they were. And one of them came up to me and she put her hand on my chest and she said, You you're a girl. A And I was just completely, [00:18:30] like shocked because, firstly, the strange woman who I didn't know was touching me, which is, you know, not really OK. And secondly, I did not know how to answer that question, because, I mean no, I'm not a girl. I can see why you would read me as a girl, but also you're not like she wasn't asking it because she was genuinely curious. She was asking me if I was a girl because she was saying you are being a woman. Wrong. and I am policing [00:19:00] you on this. You are not living up to my expectations of what a girl is, and I'm calling you out on that. And I mean, of course it was. It was so weird because I'm not trying to be a girl, so I mean, of course I'm not living up to your expectations of what a girl is. But, I mean, how do you communicate that in a single moment to some drunk girl who's grabbing your chest? You know? So, yeah, stuff like that. I mean, that's I used to, um I don't really go clubbing or whatever. Um, because if I used to, like, I'd just [00:19:30] get harassed all the time. Um, not always for my gender, a lot of the time for my perceived sexuality. So it's just kind of not only is it harassment, which is, you know, it sucks, and it's not nice to do that to people. Not only is it harassment, but it's also just inaccurate, and I never because you I mean, I guess the response is to just tell people to like, can I swear or probably not? OK, well, you know, you get what you get you get the idea, but [00:20:00] yeah, it's really bizarre, um, sense of entitlement that people have if they if they don't understand someone like, you know, I was saying before that people should be as understanding as they can and should try and find out about stuff if they don't know. But again, it's like the way to do that isn't to be aggressive and to, like, confront strangers about very personal things. What do you think the way is to do that? Well, I mean, this is a good way, you know, having this is a You're [00:20:30] interviewing me about something like this is fine. You're putting it out there as an educational resource again. I have to go back to the stuff that school I was doing with education in school. But like, it's that thing of thinking again about what? The weight behind the words and the way that the relationship between different people and different kinds of people it's that thing about power, like it always comes back to that like [00:21:00] sorry to keep being like, oh, institutional oppression. But a lot of you know it it it expresses itself in these tiny everyday interactions, and I think that's just something that everybody should think about all the time.

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TITLE: Tim Barnett - Rainbow Politicians
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VOICES: Tim Barnett
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; 1990s; 2000s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bill Birch; Brian Tamaki; Campaign for Civil Unions; Capital Gay (London); Catherine Healy; Charles Chauvel; Chris Carter; Christchurch; Church of St Michael and All Angels; Civil Union Act (2004); Clause 28 (Local Government Act 1988, Great Britain); Community Law Centre (Christchurch); David Benson-Pope; Derek Jarman; Des Smith; Destiny Church; Freedom dance party (Christchurch); Geoff Braybrooke; Georgina Beyer; HIV / AIDS; Heather Roy; Helen Clark; Human Rights Act (1993); Ian McKellen; John Banks; John Jolliff; John Key; John Stringer; Judith Collins; Katherine O'Regan; Kevin Hague; Lambda Centre; Lianne Dalziel; Louisa Wall; Luamanuvao Winnie Laban; MMP (mixed-member proportional electoral system); Margaret Thatcher; Marian Hobbs; Marilyn Waring; Maurice Williamson; Maxim Institute; Melissa Farley; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand Labour Party; Nick Partridge; OutRage! (UK); Parliament buildings; Prostitution Reform Act (2003); Rana Waitai; Rodney Hide; Rule Foundation; South Africa; Stonewall (UK group); Sue Bradford; Tariana Turia; Terry Higgins; The Press (Christchurch); Tim Barnett; United Kingdom; Wellington; Winston Peters; Wolfenden report; activism; adoption; brothels; civil rights; civil unions; decriminalisation; disability; equality; gay; homosexual law reform; human rights; identity; internet; legacy; lobbying; marriage; marriage equality; media; politics; relationships; religion; sex work; sexuality
DATE: 13 November 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Tim Barnett talks about growing up in the United Kingdom; becoming Britain's " first professional homosexual"; moving to New Zealand and becoming a Member of Parliament. Tim also talks about two significant pieces of legislation - Prostitution Reform Act and the Civil Union Act.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I was born in, uh, and and brought up in a place called rugby. Uh, best known for being the the place where the game, uh, began, uh, which is a town of about 50,000 people sized vaguely of Nelson in the centre of England. Um, it was, uh, when I was growing up, it was the largest town in the UK without a cinema, which gives you some idea of the dearth of anything cultural. Um, there was one bar which used [00:00:30] to be gay one night a week, but even people who went there regularly had no idea it was happening, so it was very subtle. It was vaguely near to Coventry in Birmingham and Big Midland C. So when I, when I grow up, grew up in the 19 sixties into the seventies, Essentially, um, there wasn't a lot of positive gay imaging around. There wasn't a lot of debate on the issues. I was in a household that was kind of my mother was sort of conservative liberal. My father was labour [00:01:00] liberal, so they they were they were not, um, negative on issues like race equality, but on issues of sexuality, it would never really have been discussed apart from in a fairly offhand way. So I grew up. Um, probably not with not with a particularly, um, overt sexuality. Um, and I was in an all boys, uh, secondary school. So not a lot of social contact with with girls, but fairly, [00:01:30] fairly much not a loner, but kept myself to myself. An only child sort of got on with the stuff was reasonably studious. Um, spent a lot of time at home with my parents. Didn't get that involved in sport. Very interested in current affairs. Um had a small circle of friends, some of whom I still got. So it was not an unhappy time at all, but But the fact that I wasn't having the kind of relationships that many of my peers were having never seemed to be important. And then I went on to have two years off between school [00:02:00] and university and that I was in Belfast and then in Barbados. So I was doing, um, work, um, around disability issues, actually, for most of the two years, and that again was quite intense. And and the cultural difference was great. It was in, um, Barbados. I had my first sort of gay sexual experience and a sort of a torrid, humid, slightly rum filled environment. So that was all very nice. Um, and then went on to universities. There was, like, two gap years [00:02:30] went on to university in London. Um, and at university again, most of my friends were male. Um, one or two turned out afterwards to be gay. Indeed. Going back, a bit of my close friends at school. There were four of us, and, uh, myself and two others came out as gay, but not two years later. So, oddly enough, that kind of the attraction was there the friendship attractions there without us necessarily realising. So I went on to university in London in [00:03:00] the in the very late seventies, early eighties. So it was quite a buoyant period, quite a political period. And, uh, there was a labour government, and then Margaret Thatcher came into power, so it was a very interesting time to be there. But, um, at the London School of Economics, where there was a gay society and so on, but didn't really to me, my identity wasn't really there. I hadn't met that many people who are openly gay. I was involved more in politics, interested in this? That and the other. Um, and it wasn't until I left. Uh, university got a [00:03:30] job as a community worker in South London. By then, Ken Livingston had just been elected in to lead the Greater London Council. It was a period when there were when there was a lot of a progressive political thought in London. There were a lot of new left wing local bodies, uh, elected in in 1982 and we were one of them in Greenwich. Um, and I met, uh, the person who later became my partner for 18 years, Jonathan who, um, [00:04:00] was a a local priest. And just prior to meeting him, I'd met somebody who was writing for capital gay, and I'd asked which was like a week ago newspaper I think it's still going. And, um, I'd asked them what they were. Advice they would give to somebody coming in as a new local body councillor about what they could be doing for the gay community. So they wrote this open letter to me over about five editions on employment issues and funding community groups. And so on. [00:04:30] So Jonathan saw this and kind of put two and two together. There must be me. And then in the period leading up to that, which was when I got elected to council for Labour, Um, I'd I'd started to realise there was about my sexuality, and it was largely through thinking it through it through a few failed straight relationships and just starting to understand more. And I was kind of a late developer, I guess, and, uh, went to gay bars a couple of times. Nothing much ever happened, but I was starting to just kind of understand [00:05:00] that there's this new thing that I was part of. So through that whole process, Johnson and I got together. He was an Anglican priest, and and our relationship sort of started in, um 19. Yeah, it would be 1982. Uh, so I would elected to cancel, um, started to get involved a bit in gay politics and, uh, really came out to all the friends I knew at the same time and my parents right at the end of that. So that was that was a fairly intense year for me, [00:05:30] uh, and then spent the next six years. Um, so eight years living in London 8, 8. 5 years and on the Council for four years and Lewis and Council for Two after that, um, and then moved north London and followed a paid career because those were very intense volunteer jobs paid career in NGO management. And I was in organisations where we were could actually be doing outreach to the the lesbian [00:06:00] and gay communities. And it was a period when there was a quite a, a kind of outpouring of new organisation in the queer communities. So it was a very interesting time, and I was not at the centre of it. I was at the edge of it, but I was using pushing issues of equity inequality around race and, uh um, sexuality in particular in that in that period, was homosexuality ever an issue for you? No, I thought I mean, I can remember it was on Christmas at home that so must have been. [00:06:30] I think it was probably my last year at university. So in 1981 I think I went back to my parents' place in rugby at Christmas and had a fair amount of time on my own after having been very involved in everything at university. And, uh, I kind of thought it through, and I kind of rationalise the fact that I was gay. I mean, having having handing, had odd one off, Um, uh, flings, um, but not thought it was serious. I kind of started to think it through and thought, Well, obviously this [00:07:00] is what I am, but it was and all and everyone I met who was gay, who I'd had an ongoing friendship with at that stage I. I weren't people I particularly warm to, and I think it's nothing to do with their sexuality. It's just not people. I particularly kind of had other other sort of senses of contact with, and And So, um, for me, it was that of thinking. So once I thought it through, it was it was fine. Just want to get on with it. And I was telling everyone and being open. And then I thought, after that something will happen once I'm at peace with myself. And [00:07:30] I've never been somebody who likes hiding things particularly, um I mean, it's hard even working for a political party now and being a member of Parliament and a senior whip. There's always a part of your life, which is kind of private and, you know, stuff that other people shouldn't know or mustn't know. And I've always find that quite difficult. So I think once I knew what I was, I just wanted people to know and to get on with it. Uh, I, I never thought at that time I I'd end up, um, being sort of working full time in the movement. [00:08:00] Uh, and I didn't I've never been someone who's known enough a lot about the history and the context. I've just been somebody who I guess has been an advocate and a lobbyist and on a on a good day, a communicator and a quite a good networker and an organiser and a strategist sometimes so that I bought those skills. I didn't bring a great encyclopaedic knowledge about the history of our communities, uh, in the UK or the world. I've kind of found out about that through experience. Did [00:08:30] the laws in the UK around kind of age of consent for for, um, homosexual acts did that have any impact on you? Because it's quite different from a New Zealand, isn't it? When you were growing up, um, didn't I mean, they weren't laws that were particularly, uh, um observed. And unless, um, the police were very bad and, well, people were, uh, particularly overt. They didn't seem to be enforced a great deal. So not really. I mean, the the fact that [00:09:00] the the conservative government was trying to, uh, Margaret Thatcher government was trying to to restrict the laws further, Um, both in terms of, um, the expression of sexuality of the Section 28 stuff, Which was how, um, the stonewall group started and how I got involved, uh, full time in the whole thing. Um, there. But also, they were trying to make the laws around, um, soliciting and input, tuning and sex in the public place. [00:09:30] So we're trying to increase the penalties for that. And that was how Stonewall started its first fights. Really? So so, yeah, it was a period when I when I certainly sense that this nasty government were headed in for a whole bunch of people and the gay community weren't immune from that. And the migrant communities weren't immune, and women's rights were being restricted and and movements that were happening in London. The the kind of liberation stuff around disability and a whole lot of different communities was being denied by the government. And we have this great clash of [00:10:00] having a very liberal progressive Council and then a very regressive government and Westminster Parliament on one side of the river and County Hall on the other. It was all highly symbolic and exciting when you were getting new to politics and Margaret Thatcher as a very um, I mean the upside was a very kind of vivid, forceful, um, opinionated, values led politician who, um, it was hard to be apathetic about her. You either liked her or you loathed her, but it made politics real [00:10:30] to people. And and I was reflecting a lot when she, uh when she died. Um, this year, Um, mean, on what I mean, there was something about being being around at that period and a woman in an extraordinary position of leadership in a country that had never had a particularly great record in that area. Suddenly, somebody with her background to get there was extraordinary and had whether it was possible to separate that from the reality of the stuff she was doing, it was [00:11:00] be a bit like having a our first Maori prime minister here, But then being national, it would be that kind of the good and the bad all caught up together. So I found that that was an interesting time to be around. And I was near enough to some of the circles around to sort of to sense what was going on. Yeah, it was a very interesting period. And as I go back to your question, the laws didn't mean the great didn't have much meaning. And it was a time when when increasingly, culture was being influenced by particularly the gay male community that, [00:11:30] um, expression in TV and film was going from the stereotype to to more meaningful expressions. It still wasn't great, but it was going to getting better. And it was a really exciting time to be around there. Can you just describe what Section 28 was and also what the Stonewall lobby group was? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So Section 28 was an oddity. I mean, Margaret Thatcher was a populist, and I think in the present day would say that she [00:12:00] was led by focus groups and polls, and she decided there was a need to throw a bit of raw political meat to the right wing of her caucus. And that was around a piece of legislation that was within, um, the local government act. And it was called Section 28 because it was section 28 of the legislation and it basically banned local authorities from, I think I quote [00:12:30] promoting homosexuality as a pretended family relationship. So it was very strange. Strange wording for legislation and what it was designed to do was to prevent local authorities from, um offering, um, positive images, being lesbian or gay. So it was pretty insidious, and it really was in that sense when the nastiest pieces of legislation you could imagine within that context, it was then interpreted by conservative local authorities to mean, [00:13:00] for example, one with a A tour by visiting opera company. A tour of school was because they were performing Benjamin Britain, and they decided that just performing his his operas was actually tantamount to promoting homosexuality. So it got it got silly, and then others completely ignored it, in fact, and the and yet others actually did things they wouldn't have otherwise done in protest. It didn't have much of an effect. But what the effect it did have was to be the catalyst for a, um, a coalition, an odd coalition of [00:13:30] conservative and progressive lesbians and gay men who got together through the arts community, the political community broadcasting to say, um, this kind of attack on our rights is fundamentally wrong. And this is the catalyst for us to get organised. And and that became the Stonewall Group. So the group was 10 lesbians and 10 gay men, and I mean included Pam Saint Clement, who was on East Enders at the time. [00:14:00] It was Michael Cashman who'd done the first gay kiss on screen also in East Enders, and is now just, uh, retiring next year as a European parliamentarian, having been president of the Labour Party there in the in the course of his career. Um, Ian McAllen, uh, known best here for Gandalf. Um, there were who else, um, Matthew Paris, who was a former conservative MP who had resigned [00:14:30] in protest at section 28 coming in, although he never said that publicly, but that was the reason the homophobia and her pandering Margaret Thatcher's pandering homophobia he found remarkable for somebody who he knew privately was a lot more friendly and supportive and found that unacceptable. So he was part of the group. Uh, Dorian Jabri, who was, uh, stood as a partner of, um uh, Chris Smith, who was the first out gay MP in in Britain. So this group formed. [00:15:00] They raised, um, a bit of money. They don't know where they got They got a a donation from foundation to get going. They're just enough to print a very colourful, very expensive brochure which didn't do a great deal of good, um, and employ me for a year, um, as what the media called Britain's first professional homosexual. So it was the first full time job for somebody to work on lesbian and gay rights in the country, which is something we've never achieved here in New Zealand, I guess. Um, [00:15:30] So I was employed for and and II I remember being on a holiday in Ireland with my partner and, um looking at this job in the paper, being quite happy in my previous work. But something about it looked interesting it was quite vaguely worded. It was clearly about gay rights, but it was a bit sounded a bit strange, and I applied and I and I heard nothing. And I thought, Well, that's that. And I got called to this interview. The, um the tubes were on strike in London. The whole public transport system was on strike, and it [00:16:00] was a very hot day as I walked and I miss timed it. So I arrived just at the time I was supposed to start the interview and I was pouring the sweat and they gave me 10 minutes to recover and I went into this room and the sun was so bright that I couldn't actually see. There were eight people there. I could see these shadowy figures, couldn't actually see who they were. I realised at the end McKellen was one of them and they interviewed me and I could do a presentation. And so I thought, Well, this is a waste of time went through that. They said they let me know the next day, and then 10 days later they rang me to offer me the job and and I started and and I was in somebody's [00:16:30] front room. They given up the spare room to be in the office at a filing cabinet with one bit of paper in which was this brochure. There was money in the bank to employ me for a year and pay for running costs, and there was a computer that never worked. And it was a phone and and the aim was, um, equal rights under the law for lesbians and gay men, that was a That was the mission of the organisation, and that was it. And they sat back and waited for me to do something, which was, and it's probably the most. Um, I mean, every job [00:17:00] I've done has been a bit challenging, but that had particular challenge about it because it was completely blank Slate. And so I was there for I was there till I emigrated to New Zealand. So I was in the job for, um, probably 2, 2. 5 years, two years, and basically what I did it was to we had to get lots of people to offer free help and the reality it was in the lobby companies and PR agencies, and so on. There were heaps of, um people, particularly [00:17:30] people who are gay, who were happy to help who felt strongly about the issue. So we were overwhelmed with offers of support. Um, it was very hard, but But like Labour Party general secretary with a tiny, tiny staff team, but lots of people wanting to help how you actually get that organised is quite challenging. So, uh, we were lucky in that the government, um, came up with this proposal to tighten, um, tighten the or increase the penalties for some, um, consensual gay crimes. And that became [00:18:00] a bit of a chance for us to run the lobby and to educate MP S about the issues. We started an all party group. We, um Then Margaret Thatcher got thrown out and John Major became prime minister. He came with some reputation for being gay, gay, friendly, with quite a lot of people in the social circle who were gay. And we organised Ian McKellen to meet him very publicly at number 10. So I had to go beforehand, and we kind of arranged almost, um, like a script for [00:18:30] the meeting that we would present this and they would say this and and the media were very interested. It was the first time there'd been a an upfront gay lobby. And then we were attacked the whole time by Derek Jarman, the filmmaker who, uh, uh thought that we were just a bunch of men in suits. Um, who were who were, um, a disgrace to the history of the community because the history of the community is one of activism, and we were deliberately dressing up and going into the into the the the the powerful places. So [00:19:00] I was wheeled out to meet him and try and charm him and and assure him we weren't doing the nasty things. And and, uh, Peter Tatchell, who is still a very good friend of mine. He he started, um, outrage at the same time. So they were doing the street stuff and we were doing the behind the scenes stuff we were doing. We're both doing media. Our stuff tend to be more serious, and, um, although a lot of the leaders of Stonewall were quite hostile to Peter, he and I formed quite a strong [00:19:30] bond. We link what we did, so we were never actually sort of clashing in public Sometimes the methods, our methods and their methods offended the other side. But we were. So we got, um we got quite a good sort of wider coalition of lobby groups going. We got the free help from a GJW, which is a very big lobby organisation. They basically allocated for staff who were gay to no. Two were gay, and two weren't [00:20:00] to work with us. Um, across the political spectrum. So they had people who linked to each of the major parties. Um, we did a lot of media work. What is any issue? I mean, we we became the go to organisation very quickly for media to to talk to anyone about queer issues and that that was helpful. And for 18 months, we we just sort of ran that and slowly started to to grow as an organisation. We didn't let it rush too much. Um, and we got funding from the Sainsbury family. [00:20:30] Um, Elton John invited, uh, Ian McKellen and Michael Cashman to dinner one night, and everyone got quite drunk. And then they to $100,000 came out of that. And then David Hockney gave a painting pet shop. Boys were liable by the Daily Mail and they got to pay out in the courts and they gave that to us and so slowly and there was there were individuals giving donations as well. So slowly the organisation started to to grow. When when I left, there were only three people and then it started to expand quite rapidly [00:21:00] and I when when we decided my partner and I to immigrate to New Zealand, the organisation was kind of a take off point and I remember thinking, Hm, Maybe I like if I stay, I'll have to stay long enough to see it grow a lot more. But maybe my job has actually been just to get it into the public eye and so on. So it's quite a quite a shock to the people involved when I left. But I think it was the right thing to do. And it was right that the woman took over from me, uh, Angela Mason. She got the OBE eventually for services [00:21:30] to to, uh to equal rights and all that stuff. So the organisation became very establishment. Probably Ja's worst fears were realised. Looking back on it, um, and the group I mean the it's it's quite a classic history of a lobby organisation. Actually, I mean that there's even been radio documentaries made in the UK about how started. Um uh, and when I McAllen was here, um, last year, um, he was, you know, this [00:22:00] this year? Um, he was talking about the need to get a history written to the organisation because of the lessons not just for the the Queer World, but for for lobbies, on tricky issues and how to actually get into the system. What type of lobbying do you think is more successful? The kind of street activism or the kind of more quieter in the offices of power type lobbying? Oh, I think you know. I mean, it depends the extent on the issue. I mean, I think some some issues are barely [00:22:30] going to get in the door, so you need to be fairly public. And then the question is what you do. But some of the stuff Greenpeace does is undoubtedly massively effective, and and they are prevented by governments and Corporates from getting in the door where they are well able to get media attention. Increasingly, it's visual images that are going to be effective. Some of the street stuff can look violent and hostile and negative. So I think you need to be quite careful of that. And sometimes the street activity will have no effect because the issue is too subtle and you really need [00:23:00] to have the conversations, um, in the doors. I mean, we were while we were doing the lobbies with the conservative government. We were also looking ahead to the, uh, the possibility of a Labour government. I mean it. It seemed likely that Labour will get in there in 92 which they didn't, and it took another five years. But Roy had he was a deputy leader. Neil Kinnock, who was a leader. Neil Knock's wife, Glennis was a patron of the RS trust, so we were very closely linked to them. Tony Blair, who [00:23:30] was a shadow home secretary. He he linked to us. And in fact, when he just before he stopped being prime Minister, he he did a He spoke at a stonewall dinner and said that the is sort of a what's the word? Um, the way in which he had nurtured the law reforms to deliver what stonewell wanted, which was that complete equality under the law was one of his proudest achievements. Because it was something that was under not under undercover, but it would do. It didn't get the biggest [00:24:00] publicity of everything. But what it did was to really achieve fundamental things. And they inherited in 97 quite a messy law. As you said, that has been around for a long time, but, uh, where gay sex was legal, but at an unequal age of consent. And so getting that sorted out and then some of the other edges of the law, like around adoption, are quite, uh, proven to be quite messy there. But, um, it's always it's always investing and looking ahead and that looking ahead, work has to be done often in [00:24:30] a more private, uh, environment, Uh, which is important. And the other thing that we did, um, because we were well aware that the debate in the Conservative Party was important. And I think if you look to what the Cameron government's done, maybe we helped right to the beginning to do that. Um, we we tried to nurture the development of a a gay rights lobby within the conservative Party, Uh, which wasn't easy, but we had people like Matthew Parris [00:25:00] who were part of our organisation. So I well, remember the, uh, Bournemouth conservative conference. And it was the year that Margaret Thatcher was, um, thrown out. That would be 1990 91 That, um, we I mean, 91 was my last not long before I came to New Zealand. Um, we, um we booked a room for Stonewall. We weren't able to have a store. They didn't want to have a store, but they let us leaflet, so I was the only person [00:25:30] prepared to leaflet. So I stood at the conservative Conference having out leaflets for this meeting to lots and lots of people. And we told all our networks with no idea where to get two people or 200 we got about 100 and 50 people turned up. It was like a evangelical revival meeting. And from that torch, which is a con Tory conservative, um, campaign for homosexual rights, whatever they call it, um, got started, and that's really been the lobby [00:26:00] that has helped to to nurture some of the positive things that they're still doing there so that was kind of an odd, uh, it was a lot of thing we had to do, but it was It was about working across the spectrum, and we worked with the Liberal Party and we worked with the Scottish National Party, just trying to make sure that the, in a sense, the issue was depoliticized, but also that we knew which part of the the spectrum was really going to help us. So it was an interesting job from a strategic point of view, a lot of media [00:26:30] exposure. Um, very, very interesting. Very interesting, uh, to be often the lone voice on the media or the media were very keen to get balance, and therefore we were in really high demand. We went to the Isle of Man because we had to deal with Not only there's one law in England and Wales. Another law in Scotland, another law in Northern Ireland, another law in Jersey, another law in Guernsey and another law in the Isle of Man. We had all these different jurisdictions, So even when England had decriminalised [00:27:00] gay sex in 67 it was still completely illegal in Northern Ireland. And, um, in Jersey and other places. So in Jersey, I went to meet with the HIV Society. And then Ian McKellen came to do a one man show, and, uh, at the beginning of the show, um, and and most of the island politicians were there. He he said, just before I begin, I want to point out that, um uh, I I've been forced to become a criminal since coming to this island yesterday, [00:27:30] Uh, and just spoke about the law for one minute and then did his one man Shakespeare show. And within a year, the law changed. So two years and the oldest man and we had to argue it out, and I had to do I had to appear before the Tin World Parliamentary Committee to give evidence about how bad the law was there. And then, um, did a radio interview next to somebody who was sitting there with the Bible in front of them. And then somebody rang up and offered to pay me money to leave the island immediately. So it was very it was all very I mean, so it was a [00:28:00] bit of a I mean, I had to be the maverick in the sense that the group were happy to raise the money and be used on occasions. But they didn't really want to spend their time doing a lot of the stuff I was doing. So it was like a It was the perfect gift for somebody with my sort of interests and skill set. You mentioned just before about, uh, briefly about HIV. And I'm wondering you were coming out of a time in the early eighties when HIV aids was just coming in or just being known. Can you paint a picture for me of what it was like in London [00:28:30] at that time? We because I didn't mean my coming out was probably. It was at the time, just after I left University and when I was in living in southeast London and being a community worker and then being a city counsellor. So the H HIV seemed almost other. It was almost other world to us down there. It didn't seem that that real um [00:29:00] Then I got involved in the volunteer bureau movement and became the national work. Um, in national director of that movement, HIV was certainly an area which was then getting a lot of people involved as volunteers again. It was kind of it was the other place stuff. My partner was involved as a as a counsellor in In In the Sector in London, which is growing. And, uh, Nick Partridge, who was head of James Higgins Trust. Uh, which, incidentally, the this is an aside [00:29:30] for a future interview. Um, Terrence Higgins, who was a young guy who died of, um, HIV, uh, or died of, uh, died of AIDS. He, um, his partner, who's still alive is a New Zealander. He's who I met in London a couple of years ago. He's a doctor. And so he was Terence Higgs partner. So sins Trust was the the kind of community based organisation that started. [00:30:00] And then the lighthouse was the main sort of care and support centre in London. So I was certainly aware of them when I got involved in Stonewall, Um, we were pretty looking back in it. We were pretty narrow and transgender issues we never touched. And the transgender community there was big enough and strong enough and probably sloppy enough not to want to touch Stonewall. So unlike here where the everything's melded, I think it's rather it's great that it is. It's much richer experience here. In many [00:30:30] ways there, everything's quite separated. The HIV stuff was separated quite largely from what we did. I mean, we were arguing in terms of human rights law for similar things. Uh, and, uh, certainly Nick Partridge was was very much sort of part of our world, but we were pretty well work. And we were trying to, in a sense, publicly talk about the rights issues separately from HIV. But they clearly HIV, as in New Zealand, was a trigger to get the law right. Um, [00:31:00] we didn't want that to be too much a driver of what we did, so it was always slightly slightly awkward. It was, um, as a a young gay man, sort of coming out and being in being in that vibrant city. It was a pretty extraordinary time. Uh, there were people in the group who had IV, uh, and and, uh uh, that I mean, that became obviously a dominant issue for them, but it was never part of our close world. We were very much we were more about the human rights world [00:31:30] and quite a lot of strong international links with other lesbian and gay organisations. But looking back on it, it was probably a time when a lot of us were denying the reality of what was, uh what was happening around us. Uh, and the government was tending. The conservative government was focusing on HIV often in a fairly uninformed and rather sort of scary way. Um and they were tending to really focus on the sexuality aspect. And then we were trying to trying to keep [00:32:00] the whole thing separate. So the messaging was complicated looking back on it, and it wasn't always clear in Africa, sort of where I was working till a year ago. Things were a lot. Yeah, they were a lot clearer in that area. I guess the science have moved on. The understanding it moved on and the the kind of the relationship between sexuality and HIV was maybe becoming a bit clearer. What prompted you to immigrate to New Zealand in the early nineties? Yeah, I missed. [00:32:30] I missed Christmas Day in 1991 so I immigrated and and that was the day I lost on the way over. So I left on left on Christmas Eve and arrived on Boxing Day. So, um, the the the real the catalyst was a combination of two things. I mean, one was, um, me feeling that my job, I got as far as it could could get with me there, and it needed somebody new. My partner's job was, um, as a selector with the Church of England. [00:33:00] So he was, um, one of the A team who would, um, organise selection conferences. People wanted to become Anglican ministers and would then interview candidates and write up the conference and and do all that stuff. And then at the end of that process, um, we write a report and and so they were He was helping to to really sort of get the next generation of of leaders off the ground, which is great, but but really hard for him to get any advancement in the church because of sexuality. Even though, [00:33:30] uh, a very large proportion of the Anglican clergy in London were gay, he was more open than most and was known to be gay, and therefore it was much hard of him to make progress. So he was feeling a bit stuck, and I was feeling as though, um, I couldn't quite see where my life was heading next. And after a long time of a conservative government. It was an increasingly kind of bleak place for me in many ways. And this job came up in Christchurch, New Zealand, which Jonathan came out to be interviewed for, and we discussed [00:34:00] at length before we did that. That was the middle of 91. I came out with, um, very cold, uh, miserable winter in Christchurch. And we made our first sort of foray into New Zealand and thought, This is an amazing country, Amazing experience. He got offered the job and then he moved out about three months later. It got quite complicated because we applied to come as a couple because the Labour government here, before going out of power in 90 [00:34:30] it had opened up the possibility of same sex couples migrating. And, uh So when he was offered the job, we applied as a couple went to the High Commission in London and got interviewed, and they were all very nice and friendly and asked all the right questions. And then it got it had to be referred from London to here because it was the same sex couple and ended up on Bill Birch's desk. Uh, and he rejected it on the basis that, um [00:35:00] if my partner was known to be gay, that he was liable to lose his job with the church here and again. It was the don't ask, don't tell approach taken by the church here. And therefore, if he lost his job that I wouldn't have any right to stay. It was very interesting. So So, uh, so on that basis, it was refused. So then we had to. Jonathan had to apply as an individual. We had a job offer, and then he got in, and then I came as a visitor, [00:35:30] and then I had to apply under the point system to be allowed to stay. So it was our first experience of the New Zealand system. So I got here in, um, so right at the end of 91 I got involved in politics almost immediately, uh, with lean and crush at Central. And she was, uh, one of my great sort of supporters through that period, Um, and spent about a year just sort of getting my head around New Zealand doing odd jobs research for the volunteer centres. Um, [00:36:00] got on the AIDS foundation board, did some research for them around the Human Rights Act and in 92 through to 93. So I I got to travel around the country quite quickly and to get to know people networks me, Catherine Healy from the prostitutes collective who was on the, uh, board at the same time. And Charles shall who was then a young dynamic, uh, gay lawyer and then was in parliament one day. Uh, George [00:36:30] was on the board, I think later. So I got to know quite a quite a network of people who were important to me later and then got the job in nine start of 93 running the Community law centre in Christchurch. So it was quite a good It was good to have that year of just the freedom to get to know the country, travel around, make the networks got involved in Christchurch, and the Freedom Party we had was that period when we had this big dance parties [00:37:00] was hero and freedom and devotion, so that that was through the AIDS foundation. So I was on the planning committee for that for two or three years and, um got very involved in local politics. Got elected to Labour's National Executive Committee in 93 middle of 93 when the party reconstituted, sort of starting the starting the lead to M MP. And, uh and I was in my Moors area [00:37:30] and he I stood against one of his great supporters for that, um, that position on the council and I got it. And then, of course, the end of 93 Labour lost the election, although quite narrowly. And then, um, Helen Clark became the party leader and Mike saw me having won that election as the beginning of the end looking back and it was all part of the plot to him. So that was all quite exciting. And so we had Helen as leader. I was running Community Law Centre, and I did [00:38:00] that for three years and really started with a very small, rather rundown organisation. And we grew quite rapidly and became quite important in the Christchurch scene and a big service provider. So that was a that was a nice sort of stabilising period with a job that was very hands on involving lots of young students, lots of lawyers, Uh, really trying to invite people with the kind of knowledge they they they needed around human rights and issues from sexuality as well as many other things and part of that lobby [00:38:30] around the Human Rights Act. Uh, and helped with parliamentary submissions and background research, Um, and then in 95 got selected to stand for Parliament. I guess that was the next, um, the next stage. And in my career here in those first couple of years in New Zealand, I'm wondering, can you compare what the kind of standard of, uh, living or the place in society for Rainbow people in New Zealand was? [00:39:00] Compare that to what you had known in the UK Mm. It. I mean, the scale is so different. I mean, Christchurch has got in many ways, the heart of our queer history, bits of it sitting in Christchurch. I mean, it's a city that's been the place where a lot of our liberation movements have, uh, have started and where the the tend to be well established organisations and and there was still the lander lounge going [00:39:30] when I was there. There was quite a quite a strong I mean, a bit like the history in Britain. I guess the history is not dissimilar, but the place of a different history of large may run quite quite closed but really important organisations just to keep the flag flying and keep things going. Um, of course the When, When I when I arrived, Law reform was a fairly recent, um, memory. And that was a bit of a dramatic period here because the law had changed from [00:40:00] zero to equality in in a short period, which in Britain we'd lived in a half world for, uh, for many years after I left. Uh, actually, um, So I think I came from a place where which was very into the the gay culture and the the buoyant, vibrant, different community to Christchurch, which was it's quite an isolated city, uh, with kind of strong history of equal rights and a strong history [00:40:30] of community organisation, Um, never quite big enough to really sustain a vibrant gay night life. I mean, there were a range of bars and saunas and and so forth, but but you can never really sense it was a big, vibrant community. There were, there were networks and there were bits of things, but it it felt pretty comfortable. It felt quite easy, the attitudes and feel. I mean, the homophobia was, in a sense, more overt, but it was easier to challenge. Or [00:41:00] some people are here more upfront about their feelings, but more prepared to listen to challenge. In London, people have learned not to not to say things they might have thought them, but they wouldn't say them, I mean, because the city was changing so so quickly. Even then, I think here people were happy to happy to say what they thought, but then pretty open to having questions from back of them. So the church and Michael was where my partner was the vicar, and it was pretty obvious to most people that he was [00:41:30] living with another man in the very large vicarage. And and for those who got to know us well, it was when they knew we were gay. So but a lot of people just didn't get their head around it, um, and didn't want to ask. And then a few asked if they did ask, They they only vaguely found out because because the rules of the church at the time made it difficult and there were complaints and the bishop had to investigate. And it was a kind of awkward period in terms of the Labour Party. Never an issue, never an issue at all. [00:42:00] I think I was kind of made me a topic of interest, sort of popping up from nowhere. Leanne has always been very supportive of of our community, and and therefore having her around was pretty useful, but no hostility from any quarter, Really? So when you were campaigning to go into Parliament, were you campaigning as an openly gay man? That's an interesting question. I mean, I remember Chris. Chris Carter got elected, and then he came out as a guy. [00:42:30] Um, when I was the media were care. They were careful about how they reported me. They they would say that I had a, um I forget how they put it. They, they they they said that I had helped to organise the Freedom Party. Um, so they were kind of hinting at things, but they didn't feel able to say anything for sure. We never put on literature that I was openly gay, but we never denied it. And the press certainly ran two or three [00:43:00] articles where they broadly hinted at it. Um, the political parties we were up against from the left and the right were certainly aware of it. And, um, probably New Zealand New Zealand first were as well. So I think the other part is that we were campaigning against were all using it in in more of a whispering way. Um, without exception, they were using it. And the national party, I think, would have won the seat. But their candidate, um, [00:43:30] he, uh, was discovered to have been having a relationship with a young, uh, Samoan woman, uh, which she videoed and, uh, and the video got into the possession of a labour MP and, uh and so and so he was prevailed on to resign, Which he did, um, having having done a lot of work in the seat and was replaced by somebody who did hardly any work but came quite close to winning. [00:44:00] Um, and he was also gay, so the national candidate was gay as well as myself. Um, but I got I got into the seat with about 32% of the vote, so it was very split. And there were two other candidates, Um, Liz Gordon for the alliance and one mark for New Zealand first, who also got into parliament. So it's one. It was the first M MP election. So it was, um my I mean, we didn't we didn't We didn't either promote or deny issues around sexuality who has gone on with it. And I think [00:44:30] because it was crash at Central, we were presumed to be likely to win, So there wasn't a lot of public. Um, focus on the seat. Uh, I was selected against the odds. Um, because because I organised Well, um, Marion Hobbs was the other candidate. I was sort of in there with, uh and so I. I was a bit of a surprise when I got in, but there wasn't a lot of attention paid to me through the campaign by anyone by the Labour leadership or by [00:45:00] for the local media. Just because we just get on with running a campaign. I mean, it was we didn't We weren't that great at campaigning. We were still learning, and we and they'd had a former prime minister then Leanne in the seat, so they hadn't had to try that hard. But the two seats had combined. So we had a David C seat that had older supporters in who were always very supportive of me or they. The sexuality issue, you'd assume, would have been a problem it never seemed to be. And then the inner city crush at Central with a very high turnover [00:45:30] membership, a lot of young people and quite a diversity. Um, it was really only after the first election that I started to recruit a bit of a gay, not a core. But there were gay supporters who are who are still there now, in large part. Um, never. I never went for trying to get a really, really big lesbian and gay membership any more than any other community. We were probably renowned for our diversity, and it's always been one of the biggest, uh, electorates, which is good. We have some organising successes [00:46:00] and some failures. I wasn't the most, uh, startlingly effective MP, but we left a strong seat, and I think probably the the legacy in terms of the political process would be the young people who got involved to the party, some of whom are employed in Parliament. Um, and some of the case work we did locally, which was not just about helping the individual, but which was about supporting communities. So we got quite a good political system going. Uh, it took probably six years to get it off [00:46:30] the ground and working properly. Um, but it was once it once it got really buzzing. It was a It was a great place to be. And there was a lot happening going into such a public arena. Uh, becoming a member of parliament. Did you consciously think at any time what happens when somebody asks me about my sexuality? I mean, was that ever a conscious thing? Well, I think I mean, once I got elected, it was there wasn't an issue, and I'm not I'm not I don't think I I'm pretty sure I didn't [00:47:00] say anything immediately after getting elected saying, Oh, wow, we've You've just selected a gay man to parliament. Um, I think the press probably did report me as being gay straight afterwards, as pretty matter of fact. And because of that, it was a 96 election. Uh, and we had that long period when Winston Peters was deciding what to do. Um, I didn't get to do my maiden speech until about three months after we were elected. I think so. It was this quite long, odd gap [00:47:30] when I was getting staff together and getting things organised and everything else. So that was a That was an interesting period. But, uh and, uh, the the getting the party organised, um are starting to define some of the issues I was going to work on around poverty and heritage and pretty mainstream stuff. I was a bit of an oddity in the caucus because I don't think Helen had really sort of focused on me being around or hadn't really got a job for me. So I was a bit of a kind of add on for that first period. [00:48:00] Um, and I didn't I wasn't really looking for big jobs, and one of the things I done when I got selected was or was trying to get selected. As I went round all the party members and I gave them a survey about about the different roles of an MP and asked them to prioritise what they wanted and they'd had two high profile MP S running with Jeff, Jeffrey Palmer and Leanne. And they were looking for somebody who was going to focus more on building up the local party, building up the office, providing services to the community and [00:48:30] being seen as somebody who was a good local representative. And so I that that was a deal I made when I went in. And I think I stuck to that right the way through, which is one of the reasons I never really focused on getting into cabinet and and all that that side of stuff in a way that some people thought I should. But I never seemed to me to be, um you didn't need to do that to be able to, um, to work a perfectly satisfactory political career. So, um, there was a lot of impasse [00:49:00] at the beginning. Then I did my maiden speech in parliament, Uh, and by then, within the caucus, when everyone knew I was gay, sort of from the beginning, it was just I assumed part of the diversity and the intake I came in with, um for labour had three Maori MP SI think 44 Maori MP S through quite a lot of lost. So people came in in 93 lost again. It was a strange election where the had his intake and then this exodus as well. But we were also leading [00:49:30] in the polls and almost straight after that election through 99. So it was a period when when we were clearly preparing for government. And Helen's leadership, which had been pretty sort of shaky and rocky for the first three years, suddenly started to go on the rise. And my role in that period was pretty pretty much in the background. I mean, I did. It was I mean, it was a bit of a a fast, um, development, I guess from when I emigrated to to parliament. So I didn't want to overstep my extraordinary [00:50:00] luck I'd had. So I, um I was the human rights spokesperson and that did become a bit of a campaigning issue. Later, uh, I took on it wasn't something I planned to do, but, I mean, it was a pretty obvious one looking back in it. But the issue of sex work, uh, law had already been discussed around the edge. The edges of politics. I guess you could say including being, um a commitment in our manifesto [00:50:30] to, um to decriminalise soliciting. So that was that had been there, I think, in the 90 93 manifesto in 96 Uh, and then Catherine O'Regan, the national MP who had been a minister and was demoted from cabinet. She, um, got a hold of me one day and said, we need to do work on this issue, and the prostitutes collective were on board and and others on board as well. So we got this, um, this little team of us going to work on that. So that was another theme for the three years. Um, [00:51:00] I was urban affairs spokesperson. I was associate housing. Um, and we were travelling quite a lot, not as a caucus but as individual MP S around the country, just in that lead up period to getting into government. So getting used to the team and getting used to the people being known for being pretty hard working, um, probably associated with a few kind of not quite zany things, but certainly known to be somebody who wasn't afraid to push stuff. He thought was right. Having got a lot of friends [00:51:30] in the caucus who are Maori and being have always been close to Taiana through the years. So I got I was in a place where I was quite comfortable, uh, in an institution which has got its, um its fears and its negatives. But I never felt out of place. I felt like a good good place to me. And then they had to travel back and forth pretty easily to Christchurch. I was in a a comfortable space, so I knew we were going into government. I didn't regard myself as somebody who would expect to be in the first tranche [00:52:00] of people as a minister. And indeed, I got a much better role after, um 99 which was as the chair of the Justice Committee, which, uh, was did a a whole lot of of some of our more progressive reforms and fundamentally rewrote quite a lot of legislation and ran inquiries and did this stuff which was good, solid lawmaking and bridge building between the parties and and building up a bit of a a team of team of labour [00:52:30] MP S who was focused on issues that are important. And that's how the we got the civil union bill through that committee in prior to the the prostitution reform bill was there for about three years. So that was took on a very intense workload. Um uh, really parallel in my head to what some of the junior ministers were doing in terms of the importance to the government and probably a lot more interesting. Gave me a lot more scope than the average minister would have in lots of ways. So that that filled a lot of that [00:53:00] time in the last three years was as a senior whip and then parallel and all that was the law reform work that I was doing. We'll come to those, um, two bills in just a minute. But I'm just wondering mid nineties when you first come into Parliament. This is only 10 years since homosexual law reform. So you've still got quite a number of MP S that were in the house at the time that law reform happened, and some of the, uh, debate [00:53:30] in Parliament was quite venomous. How were you treated when you first came into parliament by other other members in terms of the games. I can remember John Banks, who was, um He was doing radio at the time, though He was still he had been in parliament. I guess before 96 it certainly was the law reform time. He, um he attacked me on radio quite a lot purely because I was gay. And then he then some people from my electorate, including party [00:54:00] members, used to listen to Radio Pacific. I think he was up, rang up and said, Well, you're like, you're not treating this guy fairly And then he started to kind of talk me up a bit, uh, again without ever talking to me directly. And then when it came to the the swearing in of Parliament, when the governor general does the speech to all the MP S after the three years and then we you you walk out afterward and labourers on one side of the net on the other and there's I came along the road to do walk down the middle. I realised that John Banks was going to be next to me. [00:54:30] So he and I were talking for maybe a minute as we walk through. So I said, I thought I always thought he was a good radio broadcaster and a good communicator. So I told him that. And he responded, And he was. He was always kind of distant, but not disengaged. I can remember making one of the two speeches that where my sexuality was an issue and certainly the maiden speech. And there were There were a few surprise looks from the other side, but they had Chris Carter there before. They kind of knew what it was all about. I guess. [00:55:00] Um, I mean, there was There were comments made in debates that were negative when ST Peter's used to go with me occasionally. He became better over the years, but he he spoke about working at Cambridge Fudge Factory or something. I mean, it was odd things that would come back to me. I mean, later on we had the destiny Church to deal with. But in terms of the internal institution, not a lot. And there's a lot of the staff in Parliament are lesbian and gay. So So they were always very supportive, [00:55:30] and they kind of read what was going on. The Labour Caucus. Utterly and completely supportive men and women um, even the ones who like Jeff Bray Brook, who were there for? I think three or six years when I was there, um, they engaged. I mean, time move on. And none of them, even the ones from Labour who voted against, um, homosexual law reform. I don't think they fell to personal animosity to people in the gay community. [00:56:00] I don't think they did. I mean, they they might have done conceptually. But when it came to me as an individual, they were prepared to treat me as an individual until they and as a good person until they found out otherwise. And I don't think I gave them any any basic material to dislike me. So we kind of got on fine, actually. And I'm somebody who's always been able to get on with a range of people and know when to let the issue go a bit so and then went to push it and I I prefer to push things [00:56:30] through legislation than through conversations. For the sake of it. I think that was quite that was quite important. So I kind of think I mean, I remember having a swipe at who was a new a lot of New Zealand first. MP S came in when I came in and he, um he he said something really negative about the gay community in his speech. And I had a go at him in my maiden speech the next day. Um, but most of my stuff was was about issues in my electorate, [00:57:00] and I sort of I stuck to the mainstream. But But because I was working on the prostitution law reform and then later civil Civil Union, I felt that I wanted a legacy where I could say I worked for my community but also worked for my electorate and worked for my party, and I and I wanted to be able to tick all three By the time I left leg legacy was always important to me. It always has been, hopefully, always will be, um [00:57:30] and and that's not legacy for me so much as being able to say that, because because of the way that I operated, people met each other, things happened. Things moved on, and that was, and that was good to me. It's about benefit to other people, certainly not about me accruing money or political prestige or whatever. It's just about feeling that I've done some good. That's why the prostitution law reform is so important because it was a, uh, [00:58:00] in my head, a fairly pure liberation piece of legislation hidden hidden in various other ways. Uh, at the time, that's what it was. And it was transformational. Civil union did have a They had a transformational edge to it. But I think the transformation was the law reform in, uh, in 84 85 rather than anything after that. Why was prostitution reform? Why was it important? Oh, I think because it because it tackled [00:58:30] a whole lot of fear and prejudice that lies deep in many people. I mean, I think that I mean, it was a classic law. I mean, the criminalization was classic in the sense that it was the people who are marginalised by not only their agenda, but often by their sexuality and by their race. Um, so there are. I mean, the people who were criminalised were among the most marginal in our society and the most at risk through [00:59:00] the work. They did and got no recognition and no support from the system. And that was that that I mean, obviously the law had fed attitudes. But taking that criminalization away, I think, profoundly affected their position in society. And that was most evidenced by their relationship with the police, which was, I mean, it went through 100 and 80 degrees from being one where the police to them were the enemy and and to police sex [00:59:30] workers were, uh, not only criminals, but were were as demeaned as they could be. And that turned to a situation where the police and sex workers working together could solve crimes and could actually deal with a whole lot of stuff which the old system prevented. So that was one just one evidence, but but bigger than that, it was just about recognising people's humanity. It was tackling some of the mystification around sex. It was, um, [01:00:00] it was reversing this pretence that it's first of all that that the law can ban people who want to be in a relationship together, be it based on money or not. Um so, regardless of gender and regardless of whatever else, um, if you're over 18 in New Zealand and and you want to have consensual sex with somebody else. Um, we are the only country where that can happen, regardless of the law. Because every other country, because no other country has decriminalised sex [01:00:30] work, there is still one aspect of consensual sex for consenting adults over 18, uh, which is banned by the law. Utterly bizarre, in my view. So it still happens happens in in large quantities. So in that sense, it was very like the anti gay laws. It was actually the law trying to preach, trying to deny a reality. Uh, the difference was that the the laws around sex work were enforced a lot more than the laws around. [01:01:00] Um, the gay community were, um but they came from quite a similar place. And I think it was those parallels and those links that I found fascinating. I remember doing a a broadcast a BBC world service, uh, many years ago. Um, but they have some questions. It was in London, Some questions asked by listeners, and they want they bring in an expert to answer. So I was brought in to answer the question of, um, why is the word gay being used [01:01:30] by these people campaigning for law change when it really means something colourful and innocent. And of course, the word gay was actually first used in English in the early 18 hundreds to mean somebody mean sexual to mean sexual activity outside the norm so before it became used to being gay. But we hardly hear the word. Now gay is in colourful and innocent and friendly. Whatever else it was actually used to mean both people who [01:02:00] were homosexual but also sex workers. It was actually a unifying concept way back then and then when we found out in the Select Committee that the arrest rates for the the the profile of those arrested for prostitution offences in Auckland, um over half were Maori or Pacific, nearly half were men and that was because they were the transgender workers that the police were particularly going for, and the probably the sex workers who are going to argue back to the police [01:02:30] most vehemently. And so the homophobia. The police was actually brought out in the enforcement of the law around, uh, six workers. So as I went through and saw those parallels and it was a long way from Stonewall, I mean, I don't think there were. I don't think when I was at Stonewall that a sex work would ever be mentioned. I had this conversation with Ian McKellen and he through travelling the world as he has done, he he started to get the parallels, uh, around the law reforms. But I mean, to me, that understanding that relationship and I never [01:03:00] spoke about it much I do. I wrote something recently for the, uh, workers in London when they were being attacked by the gay community or something or other, or gay, like a gay lobby or something. And I just wrote about as a gay man how I see the parallels between the laws and the communities and and the way in which the stuff was worked through. But because sex work is overwhelmingly, uh, in in in our society, women are doing the work. It felt like a long way from [01:03:30] a largely male dominated gay rights movement, whereas in particularly in working in South Africa, the melding between the two was, uh is quite incredible and fascinating. So So I found that really conceptually interesting, but not something I'd ever talk about or write about a great deal because nobody nobody who would want to kind of understand the subtlety of it all. To me, that's very real. And and I mean II. I haven't been in brothels before. [01:04:00] The law reform debate started after they finished, but while it was on, I went to a lot of Brussels to talk to workers and understand what it was all about. And and I found it fascinating and interesting. And, uh, when I led conservative National MP S into into brothels in Christchurch to explain things to them, Um, I thought that was all very, very different. I thought I brought something to this Parliament in an odd kind of way, and the law reforms got through. It's not been easy to cement it, and and it's still, um, [01:04:30] in certain Certain aspects of the law are still controversial, but really in the street stuff. I think we've dealt with everything apart from that. I think the street work remains dynamic because street, anything happening out in the street has got the dynamic edge to it and and it's really hard to control. But apart from that and that's only an issue in some parts of the country, I think we've kind of I mean, we've seen a shift and it would suggest it's gonna take many years for us to do the shift in the same way. But, um, [01:05:00] it's I think it's pretty fundamental. If prostitution hasn't been decriminalised anywhere else in the world, how did you then convince New Zealand that actually, that's the way to go? Well, by saying that many countries in Europe had, um, had done very similar things to what we were going to do, which is technically true. So so because I mean in in Germany and the Netherlands, Um, France, Spain, Portugal, they they have aspects of legalisation, which is basically [01:05:30] where there's still a lot of state interest in what happens and regulation and zoning and registration and so on. But from the point of view of the public, they would look quite similar to die, but is fundamentally different in the sense you're actually tackling the whole issue of criminality of the individual. So basically the those countries and all of Australia except New South Wales, which we based our law on, um and [01:06:00] is the other place in the world that's decriminalised. They basically all said, Well, we're going to that the law has, the state has to be interested in this area. We're not going to treat it in the same way as other occupations are treated. And we're going to regulate and control for I mean to me, really, for reasons of controlling those individuals rather than for any reasons of public health and public morals. So So why in Melbourne you can't have a brothel with more than six rooms and you have to have a certain kind of light by the bed [01:06:30] to, uh, it seems to me just just kind of really odd thing to do and why every sex worker has to be registered, which means that half the sex workers in Victoria aren't registered because they're on the streets or they they're in an unlisted brothels. So therefore, there are still sex workers who are trying to work who are over 18 that are effectively labelled as criminals by the law. Whereas in New Zealand, no sex worker, uh, just for being a sex worker is labelled as a criminal, even even [01:07:00] if you're 13 or 14 or 15, I mean you'll be either child, youth and family will be interested in you if you're between 15 and 18. Um, if your clients will be risking a jail term, that you as a sex worker are not criminal. So So we've in that sense, we've completely reversed the law, and it's much purer law here. It's not perfect. We had to compromise in a few places, but it is as good as well, it's much better than anything [01:07:30] else that exists and considerably better than New South Wales. What was it like sitting on the select committee and hearing submissions? Oh, yeah. I mean, it's a committee I chaired, but I wasn't allowed to chair that one because, um, because it was my bill. Uh, so I, um So I wasn't I mean, I just had to let one of the national MP S chair it and Sue Bradford and I really just fought the fight to get get it through there. I mean, I had to fight with my colleagues on occasions. Most of them trusted me to understand [01:08:00] the issue, and it was a complex issue, and we got good MP S like Steve Trad on on occasions just to come explain to people what it was all about. And we, um because it was a member's bill. It got lowest priority. And we were dealing with really big stuff the Supreme Court Bill and victims rights and, uh, a whole lot of other sentencing legislation, like massive government legislation. So it took two years to get it through the committee. So we kept it kept popping up every time we ran into other business. Um, so that was [01:08:30] a problem. We just We just thought, let let it take as long as it's going to take. Um, we we heard all the normal submissions from groups were there, many from regular organisations. But, um, we agreed to travel, and we also agreed to hear sex workers in private. So the media and, um media weren't allowed to be there. We did a deal with the police that they would not, um, they would. They would advise us. The police were appointed as advisors to the committee, [01:09:00] but they didn't try and sort of lobby in any way about the legislation. And they came out supporting it at the end anyway, which there was a lot of internal debate about it between the kind of moral, the kind of moral group in the police and those who are more pragmatic. Um, so that the certainly the the sessions listening to sex workers tell their stories was were pretty, um amazing. Never, never harrowing. I don't think there was any attempt to try to hit the emotions, but trying to understand [01:09:30] the nature of the sex industry is really hard. I mean, it's layer on layer of complexity. I mean, to understand why a client would want to, um, pick a sex worker up off the street and have sex in their car rather than walk into a brothel is one. I mean, it's kind of I still don't fully understand that stuff and to be dealing with legislation where the where we had no submissions from clients at all. I had some correspondence, but but the client's voice was almost silent. So half [01:10:00] of the equation had nothing to say, whereas the other half had a lot to say. And then the people who weren't involved at all had an awful lot to say. Uh was quite strange so that the slum and the clients were the they were the demand. They were the reasons why the industry existed, and yet their voice was silent. And then he started to piece together a picture of clients. It was much more complex than the opposition. Pretended So, um, men who [01:10:30] had wives who had severe disabilities, who had a sexually dysfunctional or or very sterile relationship, who wanted some sexual outlet, um, men who just couldn't emotionally hold down a relationship. Men who had a disability and were unable to to kind of form the the physical link, et cetera, et cetera. People have been away from home for months working. I mean, it was more complicated. I mean, it was kind of recognising that that [01:11:00] many human beings have a sexual urge which needs to find expression. Uh, obviously very male, sort of male focused. And then in Africa, I found this whole bunch of male sex workers for whom nearly all of their clients are women. And so I I did another complexity of the whole thing. So so And and and pick that and then the the race on top for transgender workers. On top of that, um, [01:11:30] there was a male brothel, uh, opened up around the corner from Parliament on the same block as parliament and all the workers used to come along. There was only one of only two in the country which was actually mayor. And they, uh, workers used to close on the night that the legislation has been debated. No, come and sit on the chain. But there, all sorts of little twists and stories like that. But it was still a a community where where not many sex workers were confident about coming into parliament and talking. But luckily through the process, we did develop quite a team. [01:12:00] Uh, that came to do that. Uh, and it was some of that 1 to 1 lobbying, and I guess some of that goes back to my stone wall days. It was some of that 1 to 1 lobbying matching to the summer and sex work have been matched with Winnie Labour. And to talk to her or when he finally finally got got it. Um, I mean, some of my colleagues voted for the legislation, never quite got it. Some got it. But where I got it, I mean understanding enough about why [01:12:30] people use the industry, the nature of it, the the extent to which a lot of the oppressions were tied up in the sex industry in dealing with the dealing it in the way we wanted to do. It was kind of fundamentally it was almost radical. It was certainly a highly progressive piece of legislation. Not many of my colleagues became that interested by it. A lot of them just said, Oh, it's Tim's thing, We support it. It was in our manifesto. We will do it But we did try and get those MP S to understand enough to be able to respond to to, [01:13:00] uh to mail and so forth. And also we had to we lost some labour MP S. We had to get MP S from the parties to come on board, which is where it became a very tight piece of political management to say the least. Uh And what about Georgie and Baer's involvement? Oh, I mean, to be blunt. It was sort of, uh, marginally helpful and damaging some of the time. I mean, she came out against the legislation, I think, five [01:13:30] weeks out from being voted out, and then she voted for it. And then, since she's come out against it again, so it's kind of it's quite and why Did she come out against it initially? Oh, well, that was I think it was clever when I was a bit of a bit of Georgina who often likes to kind of challenge the got to do things you don't expect. Um, but the other side, um, who who were quite quiet. I mean, through the two years at the beginning, the legislation went through like the first reading [01:14:00] went through 87 to 12 or 14 or something. It was it was overwhelming. And then it went to the select committee. Then when it came out to the select committee, which would have been towards the end of 2000 and two you right? So it must have been just Oh, yeah. The election was earlier that year, so yeah, So it came out after the election, which was in about September. So the next vote was 64 [01:14:30] to 56. We it was a more conservative parliament, and we realised that the heat was on. It was only really then that this really powerful lobby started against it called Maxim Maxim Institute. Um and we we fought them on that, and we fought them on the civil union bill, and they were very well funded. And they were on occasions, Very clever. Not that clever, but they were clever enough. Um, and they did a lot of media, so they became the alternative media, um, voice to us [01:15:00] and the, uh they brought over Melissa Farley. And she was an extraordinary figure. She still is. She was a psychologist who claimed to have endless studies to her name. Endless letters after her name, uh, was lesbian. And she came over for a few days to New Zealand, paid for my maxim, and she met a whole lot of MP S, including me. And her view was her [01:15:30] purpose was to just shift a few MP S, uh, against the law reform. And she did that by claiming to have incontrovertible research evidence that, um, sex workers were a victim of post traumatic stress disorder, that there were mainly victims of sexual abuse and weren't in control of their own behaviour sufficiently. And she she conducted some astonishing New Zealand research where she interviewed a handful [01:16:00] of sex workers and declared that exactly the same condition existed here, and she for a few people. And she certainly fooled Georgina, who came out in the media afterwards saying that she was no longer supporting the legislation because this conversation had brought up a lot of, uh uh, the trauma that she now remembered from her own experience. Uh, so I saw. I mean, I took a deep side and started on the job of trying to bring her back around, um, which [01:16:30] we did eventually, Uh, there was also a, um uh, a conversation between, uh, John Key and Helen Clark because Helen was happy to, um, talk about her experience as a health minister when she had, um, got help to get the, uh, prostitutes collective funded. That was the one of the kind of key historic moves here to actually get the in the the, um the collective to have their own voice and their own financial base and be able to look at the [01:17:00] environment and the context in which they worked. Uh, so Helen Helen was having to talk about her view based on that to MP S who were undecided, and John Key became known as Mr Flip flop by the prostitutes collective because he kept changing his mind so much on the issue um I mean, intellectually, he kind of got it. But then every time a conservative church group in his electorate called him in, he would get very worried about it. So, um, I engineered the conversation [01:17:30] between the two of them, which I thought was interesting, sort of given what happened afterwards. Um and then So So we went through this extraordinary sort of intense process over months and months and months, and and it it was interesting in the, um I mean, it affected my I think both the 02 and the 05 election. My my personal vote was never massively high in the electorate. I mean, my my it went up from 32% to 57 or 60. But it, um and we focused lastly, on the party [01:18:00] vote, which is we finally got it right in terms of understanding the the campaigning methods. Um, but I think I'm sure there were people who didn't vote for me because they thought I was oddly obsessed by this thing. That meant nothing to most people. Um, but that didn't matter that much to me. I mean, as long as I was doing good work elsewhere, and it wasn't affecting my ability to be a good representative. I reckon it would be enough. And the national party in, uh, 99 [01:18:30] had stood, um, they stood family focused conservative candidates against Georgina and Chris and I using the same. It was it was the same language on the billboard, which was clearly pushed the door. I got John Stringer Gap against me. He was, um, somewhat, uh, somewhat crazy character, Um, obsessive, sort of quite disliked by the national Party, but obsessive [01:19:00] Christian conservative. Um, he thought that that he he was the man chosen by God to defeat this he sex worker loving, homosexual socialist MP, uh, and ran this very, very eccentric campaign. And the press, to their credit, decided that that this was the most interesting fight in town. So they gave a lot of coverage to Tom Stringer's eccentric activity. He used to pull a No one could work out the message. He had a car with a trailer [01:19:30] and the trailer was a stuffed sheep. And he spent his whole campaign pulling the stuffed sheep around. But no, quite the message somehow got lost. And he he his most outrageous thing he did was, um, the opening of the Midwives Centre, the National, the national Organisation National College of Midwives that they had their national headquarters in Christchurch and they opened it during the election campaign. And they invited myself and other MP S along, and Helen Clark [01:20:00] came to open it, and the mayor, Gary Moore, was there. And because John hadn't been invited, he decided that he would do a one man protest outside, and he got He was there in his car with a stuff sheet behind, and he got a megaphone, and he and it just when, uh, the, uh, the the Maori priest was doing the blessing his dad is screaming that the TV cameras were there. The mayor went out and berated him, and it was very so and the press, the press loved [01:20:30] it. And he did one. He did AAA public meeting in the square, and he got one person coming on. He was white, who was the deputy prime minister at the time, and the press covered that as well, with people hurling insults at them. And so So it became a very it was a great It was a very entertaining campaign, Um, but that that that helped push up my majority. But the point I was making was about the fact that the openly gay or two openly gay candidates the transgender candidates at the time were were seen to be the ones who were particularly vulnerable by the national party, which I don't [01:21:00] think we were, because we were all actually very focused on our electorate. So I think we knew that there was a risk that would be seen as a single issue and superficial and somehow not of the community. So Georgina, through a mayoral work and then her work as an MP in Chris in West Auckland, where we did a lot to to be really mainstream representatives without planning it out. It was just our gut feeling. That was how we had to sort of handle the issues. And I think Grant does exactly the same now in in [01:21:30] Wellington Central in the way that he operates. It's quite important to do that. How did the media, uh, react to the prostitution reform? Were they were they Did they take sides or was it pretty balanced? I think I think, probably in the civil Union the media were sort of 80% in favour. I think in prostitution reform they were uncertain. They the issues are complex. The press used to get hysterical from time to time over under age, sex [01:22:00] workers and numbers and and we'd we'd have this ongoing argument and we'd bring in people who counted the numbers and they deny the truth of it. And then we the end and they never really got it. But they most of the media did, on balance, recommend accepting the law reform when it came to the editorials and because of the subtle. The difference between criminalization and and legalisation is quite when you were involved [01:22:30] a lot. It's kind of obvious, but it's kind of difficult when when you're a journalist trying to write up something quick, quickly in one evening. So, um, they, they they they didn't put them off writing it out. But they liked the stories they liked access to individual sex works to talk about the reality of their lives. So they found some of the vitriol from the other side a bit offensive. And so I mean, they came to their own conclusions. Um, there are a lot of women involved in media majority women, and they tended to understand [01:23:00] the issues more, and some of them were really excited. Some of the younger journalists, younger men and the women journalists were quite amazed that we were in embarking on this little adventure. Never thought it would get through. Most of them predicted it was going to lose in the last week, and most of my colleagues were convinced they're going to be on the losing side until the final vote. So, um, the media were on there. I mean, there were there were hardly any public events. There were no I never went to a public meeting about the issue now, whereas Civil [01:23:30] Union got got a few people going because it was, it was a bit of a mystery to lots of even a lot of the church groups couldn't really get their head around what we were trying to do, that they somehow thought it was wrong. But they they didn't want to get go near it. It was just too yucky, whereas they were prepared to preach about homosexuality. But the sex work stuff was just a bit too messy. Uh, where there were strong voices of a place like Hunters Corner in in South Auckland. So where there was a strong commercial [01:24:00] concern, a lot of the a lot of the bar owners were against law reform because their economic interest stood to be under some threat. Because the whole of the the way that we designed the model was not only to incentivize going off the street and to Brussels, but also to incentivize leaving brothels and becoming self managing workers. So they, what we were constantly told were told, was that the the the safest environment was a bunch of sex workers collectively [01:24:30] renting a flat with established clean to, um, probably mainly working 9 to 5. Um, and that was low impact on the community. It was pretty safe for them, uh, regular income. And there wasn't somebody operating views of employment practises. So the the law was predicated in favour of that. And of course, that's quite threatening to brothels, very many of whom still, I suspect, get their their profits through through treating workers [01:25:00] unreasonably so So the the the established industry was against it. And that actually encouraged some people to support us because I didn't really like what we were saying, but they they saw the really nasty people opposing it. So I thought it must be quite good, because, I mean, when something is illegal, then the people get involved often pretty colourful characters. I mean, a few of them tried to have a go at me. I mean, not physically. Just just attack. Attack me for what I was doing. They couldn't be that public because they were also operating illegally. So So it was [01:25:30] a kind of a silent. There was another irony of the whole thing. You know, this bunch of people making a lot of money out of the sex work who couldn't actually speak out for fear that their activities would be exposed. So? So it was quite helpful to have them quiet. Very fascinating. Very complex in that last week, Uh, before the final vote, did you think it would go through? I think I decided that the it was impossible to manage, uh, manage the result. But I just had to manage individuals. And then if [01:26:00] we got enough, we were OK, so I had a number of formula in my head. About what? How we'd actually get there. And there were, I think, going into the debate there were five people who hadn't made up their mind, so I wasn't entirely sure about. So when he was one locker, Smith was one. uh, he, uh, Heather Roy was one. Um, and then I wanted to, I think Roger who voted [01:26:30] the other way. And so I knew I needed four out of No, I needed four out of those five to get it. Then I knew that one person was, um, Ashraf was going to abstain so that no one else knew that. So and I I'm pretty sure that when he was going to vote with us, so I knew we're part of the way. So So it came down to Heather Roy, in my view that if Heather Roy was going to be on side, we get there, and, uh, I when I made sure that when [01:27:00] he spoke last and when she spoke, she geared quite a lot of her explanation to the kind of arguments that would appear So then we went into the lobby around the back, and, uh, I had the numbers and we got to We got to, um we need to. So we knew we needed 60 because we knew there was an abstention, and we got to 57. We had all the proxies and people appeared, and Trevor Mallard was standing by me and Ruth Dyson, both of whom have been very involved [01:27:30] in the homosexual law reform. And they got they got the link. Um, and they were kind of worried because they knew we'd never lost one of these big ones. Euthanasia votes have been lost at first reading. But apart from that, the these big debates, when they get to the final stage, they've always tended to go through. And we got to 58 and then we then lock Smith appeared. So it was 59 and then Heather Roy appeared No, sorry. 57 and locker. He he appeared at 58. Heather Roy. [01:28:00] It was 59 and then no one appeared and they were ringing the bells for the end of it. And I looked to the list, and I realised that, um, Deborah Huntington was in was in in, uh, Cambridge at the time doing a, um uh, Qantas Media Scholarship. So she was off for three months But Heather Roy had a proxy and she had forgotten to give it to us. So we had to go back or someone had to go back in and get it. And sure enough, she had it and bought it through. And that was it. So it was the 60 [01:28:30] we knew because if it was 60 you would have lost. But we knew there was the abstention. So, uh, we walk back in and then the gallery was full of I mean, it really was people from both sides by that stage of the whole thing And I. I thought it was not fair to look excited. So I just looked very kind of calm and then committal. And, um until Gina made sure she sat next to me because she was on side again by then so she could be photographed afterward. She was always very good at that stuff. And, uh and then and then there was a long delay [01:29:00] because the other side had got, got it counted and recounted they couldn't believe what had happened so eventually And of course, they said, um, he says 60 votes in favour and there's this kind of grow and because people thought that case is 60 votes against and it's lost. And then it's a 59 against one of the 10. And then I said to the media, We're the first country in the world. I didn't say it till then. It was very It was. It was It was kind of surreal evening and we went off to bar. [01:29:30] I think they put on a do and Catherine he and lot of the collective came along and Helen Clark rang up, rang up to talk to Catherine. I thought often told that story in South Africa about how the prime minister, who was a woman, rang up the head of the prostitutes collective when the vote went through. Just the fact that would happen was was kind of an extraordinary story about New Zealand and about the way we operate. So for you personally, what did it mean? Having something like this Bill go through? [01:30:00] Oh, it I mean, it was it was immensely satisfying that the process that we'd run against the odds, given that we we always knew we were doing something pretty out there, so running against the odds had had delivered you know, delivered with the tightest of margins. Uh, we I didn't. It was. And there was a level of of luck when we went down to one or two votes. There's all sorts of factors come in that you can't control. But the fact that we [01:30:30] got it through was satisfying. I thought it was my guess. Powers of persuasion and organisation, I think probably I was. I was known as a well organised MP rather than a particularly persuasive one. But but the organisation levels and knowing how to get the arguments out and how to we had, I mean, it was all run from my office. I mean, the the real campaign headquarters was well, the prostitutes collective would would probably say it was run from their offices to an extent. But the the lobby, [01:31:00] I told them who to lobby, So I was going to them saying, I think these people need to lobby and here's why and hear the arguments and they would bring the people in to do it. So it was kind of working hand in hand, but the the kind of the the media stuff and the website and everything else was all running from from my office and staff and volunteers and this extraordinary, eclectic bunch of people just utterly committed to getting it through. So so that experience and the feeling it was all for a good purpose was good. I think I don't think until I went to South Africa and weren't [01:31:30] there, did I realise just the the import of what we'd done, just how significant it was and started to hear in in unlikely corners of Africa. People talk about the New Zealand model of law reform and realise that we'd actually created something that had international relevance. And we were referring lots of people to the justice website to look at the research, the evaluation done on the law reform after five years. So all that seemed, [01:32:00] I mean, that that that took time to sink in, Really. And I got I mean, I I in that in that area. It's probably not so relevant now as even 18 months ago. But I, I I'm somebody who's seen as a I guess, a kind of a global expert on on one edge of the issue. So I'm not a sex worker and that that in itself is complex. It's a bit like somebody who's straight sort of championing gay rights. But I'm fan of that here. But increasingly, you'd expect people from the Queer Communities [01:32:30] to be those leading medium. Well, I wasn't, um and I mean, it makes me a bit of an oddity. I mean, Georgina fronting it would probably have been as a next worker, and a woman would have been a bit simpler, but she probably wouldn't have been able to kind of manage the political complexities. As it was, we worked hand in hand apart from when we disagreed. Which is quite often, um, I like working with people from other parties. I found that quite liberating, quite refreshing. So Catherine, rich from the Nats, [01:33:00] um, Maurice Williamson, who'd been involved right from the beginning on on that issue and understood it as a libertarian, really came from a different point of view. Uh, Rodney Hyde act were generally in favour. They had a kind of moral wing of act you were against, but the core of them, including Rodney, were not just in favour but passionately in favour. He thought it was the most incredible piece of, uh, libertarian legislation he'd ever seen. So I had to try and handle the fact that we have these passionate supporters [01:33:30] who were vehemently opposed to us in many other areas. He, um I got invited to the world Libertarian Assembly and wrote her with people from all over the world Ken Douglas and Roger Douglas and his character in the States to talk about this law reform and how this this socialist guy could have done this stuff and which is liberating legislation. Interesting, uh, experience. So I enjoyed all that. I found it all quite quirky and interesting. And some of the [01:34:00] the powerful images which, um uh, which came to the whole experience. I mean, with Bunches of conservative MP S and in, um, Dungeons and in madams, uh, flats in Sydney, in Christchurch and then and in Melbourne, and and other or most incredible human experiences. But even the MP S who voted against who got very involved in learning but still voted against they kind of understood that there was an issue [01:34:30] there, and what we were doing had validity to it. It wasn't just a zany approach, and so I mean, it was it kind of tested out a whole lot of the things that I thought were pretty amazing about our democracy, and and they kept up. Shine came up shining, and it gave me a a sort of sense that there was a project that, in political terms, was mine. And then Catherine, he on the the NGO side from her point of view that the two of us between us were kind of driving this extraordinary thing. That was quite special. [01:35:00] Tim, this is the second interview we've done about your time in parliament and specifically around two large pieces of legislation the prostitution reform bill and the Civil Union Bill. I'm just wondering if we can, um, briefly look at the prostitution reform bill one more time. And, uh, I mean, it was interesting for me that it was introduced in 2000, and then it passed its third and final reading in 2003. Is that a long time [01:35:30] in parliamentary terms, and And how do you kind of keep the momentum going? Well, yeah, it probably is a long time for a piece of legislation. Uh, I mean, there was a technical reason, which was that, uh, it went to a very busy committee, the justice and Law reform. And I and I wanted Sorry, justice and electoral as it was then. And I wanted that to happen because I was on that committee and because it was a piece of human rights based law reform rather than, um, being [01:36:00] around health or employment. And it had all those aspects. But it was a fundamental reform. Um, and that committee is very busy. And under parliamentary rules, A members bill takes lowest priority. Every time it seemed to rise to the surface and we had a few hearings and then some other piece of legislation would arrive with us, which we had to deal with. So and the other issue which made our journey, uh, on the law reform very different, say to New South Wales was that they'd had a an inquiry, a royal commission [01:36:30] which recommended things which their parliament then put into effect. We'd had none of that. We had a recommendation from sex workers. But that wasn't something which, um which Parliament had any duty to look at. So we had to go back to basics to work through the issues and and because there was a lot of pressure from the Justice Ministry, Um, and occasionally for the Minister for, uh, AC a, um, legalisation model, which means government has more power. [01:37:00] And it means that sex workers is regarded as separate to other forms of activity and is and has a different relationship with the state. Um, and we were very, very determined to keep the rim model, and that involved quite a lot of behind the scenes, uh, discussion and quite a lot of caution when officials came to the committee. So Sue Bradford and I, it was really Sue and I who were doing that driving through the committee really felt just let this one take the time [01:37:30] We had an election in the middle of the process. And a more conservative Parliament, and particularly the United Future Group of fundamentalists, appeared at that time, and they were quickly determined to try and kill the legislation they possibly could. So it there was a lot of political dynamics around it, but luckily, the committee had enough of a head of steam to keep going on the issues right through. Can you tell me the difference between legalisation and decriminalisation decriminalisation means that [01:38:00] the only law relating to the activity is law, which is, uh, around the harm created. So the legislation is about, uh, being the client of a sex worker aged under 18 is an offence, um, being a, uh, being running a brothel when there's no one with a licence. And the licence is a fairly low level intervention now, But, um, there there's legislation to to make sure, if that happens [01:38:30] that the police have a right to go in if they think there's a good reason to believe that's the case, um, the legislation around health and safety and around, uh, employment rights. So basically, the law is about protecting sex workers from harm, whereas legalisation involves creating a machinery around it. So in the state of Victoria, which is legalised, there is a a pro, uh, a A prostitution board, [01:39:00] and they register sex workers. And if sex workers won't register, then they are deemed to be criminal. Uh, and they don't allow street works. Therefore, any street sex worker in state of Victoria is is automatically breaking the law. Um, and we were trying to reach a situation where, um, consensual sex between a sex worker and their client was was automatically legal if there was consent and if they're both aged over 18. [01:39:30] And obviously if there was no sense of a coercion and we achieved that, whereas in New South Wales might be many situations where there is consent. But it is illegal because the sex work is deemed to be illegal by the so it's quite there's a spectrum within that so that in, um, like in Amsterdam, there are there are zones and in the zones it's both pretty well decriminalised, but outside the zones it's not. But we've achieved what to me is the only sensible base for the law. [01:40:00] But explaining that to people wasn't easy. In fact, it took us most of the time. The law reform was going through to come up with a language to to kind of describe it, uh, properly, Can you give me some examples of how you would describe it, say to the media, So so that that that journalists would get it, um, we we we can never find a very brief way of doing it. Unfortunately, and I would say we I mean my brief, my brief terminology would be kind of summary of what I just [01:40:30] said. So B, DC is saying, is having that the law has no moral judgement about prostitution and that the only laws that are relevant to have are to protect, um, the the public or sex workers from harm. Whereas legalisation creates special law around sex work, which includes the state trying [01:41:00] to control sex workers in ways which are not reasonable. So it goes beyond trying to goes beyond legislation around real harm. It's under state control of sex workers. And then if you go beyond legalisation, you get to criminalization. So legalisation is like a halfway measure. You said we don't like it. We'll let a chink of light in, but not the whole thing. Whereas Rim is in that sense quite fundamentally different [01:41:30] with many campaigns, they take it right down to a personal level. So they'll present individual people and their stories to try and sway public opinion. Was that something that that that you tried in in this campaign? A bit of it. I mean, there weren't that many people happy to go public. I mean, they certainly, uh I think, as I said before, people, um, sex workers and former sex workers prepare to go to the parliamentary committee either in a public session or a private session and talk about their experiences. And there [01:42:00] were brothels happy to let the committee visit them and talk about whatever and the prostitutes collective as we travel to the country, organised, um, discussion groups of sex workers to meet members of the committee, and that's pretty unusual for a parliamentary committee to do that. But, I mean, that's great. It's part of our system that we have fairly broad boundaries what the committee is able to do. Uh, but in terms of, um, people prepared to go fully public with their stories, Not that many, actually. Uh, the [01:42:30] most that happened was around groups of sex workers talking to MP S. There was quite a concerted attempt to match MP S with sex workers who either had similar from the same communities as them geographic communities or or terms of sexuality or or whatever. Um, and that was that That was pretty crucial in persuading one or two MP S. But in terms of the wider stories, really a contrast [01:43:00] to civil union, where there were many couples not only sort of Keating but insistent about coming forward. Um, because I guess I guess there is always, I mean, the stigma around sex work has certainly not been removed by the by the law reform, and it's pretty deep and real. And part of the law reform prostitution law reform is to allow sex workers to get on with their lives beyond sex work. It actually is a law reform, which incentive which which clears some of the barriers to people leaving [01:43:30] sex work completely, contrary to what the what the opponents argued. I mean, they other illogically argue it was OK that you can criminalise somebody and that will somehow enable them to leave. Well, of course it doesn't. It actually traps them into the activity. No, I think we're still a few years off anyone or many people being prepared to put on a CV that they've done sex work for a period, and it will. It will be It will be a breakthrough in terms of just accepting reality when we do that. [01:44:00] What were some of the main arguments for and against the legislation are the arguments for where you accept a reality and that you, you guard against the harm. And as I said, most of the harms I think were to sex workers. I mean, some of the public harms would include, uh, um invasive signage or behaviour on the streets. That was, uh, beyond the norm, which was, can be dealt with by other legislation. Um, and then the obvious harms [01:44:30] to sex workers so that that would be the I mean, we we have a duty of care to people in our society. We've we've that that group is alienated from society, they're regarded as criminal. Um, they earn money, they but But generally they earn it illegally because to, uh, legalise, that would be too difficult. So So we have a group apart. And yet the relationship between sex workers and police in terms of exchange of information, not just around sex workers who are victims, but a lot of the worlds [01:45:00] which sex workers will often be aware of. So it was about normalising relationships in society and protecting a vulnerable group over the argument of favour. The arguments against were that it was a fairly untried approach. Although it had been sort of tried in New South Wales that we were going to unleash, uh, offensive behaviour on wider society and that we would normalise sex work as an acceptable occupation. And often [01:45:30] that was combined with the argument that sex workers were innately damaged people either before they went into sex work or damaged by sex work, to the point that they were not able to make rational decisions for themselves. So the state had to effectively make decisions for them, uh, and and that criminalization was a necessary incentive to get out. This was a conscience vote. [01:46:00] I mean, do conscience votes work? I think probably because people are able to be upfront and honest about it and and every conversation mattered and and I wouldn't want to do it for too many issues. But I think every every year or two in Parliament it's quite good to have a debate that goes beyond the party blocks and actually looks at the individual views on the issue. I think it's it can be taken too far, uh, because I think a lot of the a lot of what we do within parliament is necessarily value based and is ideological [01:46:30] and and parties take positions for good good solid reasons. So I don't think that's, uh that's at all a problem. Um, but, uh, I guess the risk of it is that often the issues have a lot of emotion attached to them. And we manage to suppress that while the select committee was happening and we built up a bit of a body of evidence. Uh, but as the voting proved afterwards, that wasn't necessarily enough to counteract some of the emotion that was washing around. [01:47:00] Um, I think probably it's better to have a conscience vote following a an inquiry or a more independent look at the issue, whether it be law commission or a more public inquiry. And I think that's the way that the the debate on drug law reform is going. And that's one of the that. And euthanasia, Um, and maybe revisiting abortion law are probably the big conscience issues that are left at the moment when I say revisiting is any, I mean to shift abortion to being a health issue and not a criminal [01:47:30] law issue. So really kind of paradigm shift and ensuring, uh, ease of access to services which isn't there now. So so those are probably where the the current issues are, but they bubble up. I mean, euthanasia hasn't been a debate, maybe actively, for more than 20 years. In 20 years time, there may be other debates, the same debates around animal rights, animal welfare that kind of get into some of the moral areas as as well, So who decides whether it's a party voter or a conscience [01:48:00] vote? Um, formally, the speaker. But then each party can decide whether or not they want to, um, have a a formal a whip. So the greens traditionally come up with a group view on the issue. Uh, we have this recent case, um, with the Sky City deal where there was a because it was related to gambling and it was about watering down some of the gambling laws, there was a a conscience vote on that, but it was pretty. I mean, the issue become so politicised that it was treated [01:48:30] along party lines, and I think one of the the necessary skills and and a conscience vote is having the right MP to lead it, I guess. And well, didn't sure a number of us could have done it, but somebody who is not regarded as being too partisan by other parties and somebody who can work with people from across the political spectrum. That's pretty, Uh, that's pretty important stuff, um, and that the each of those conscience issues can be presented [01:49:00] differently to different people. So that, um for for the, uh, the right the libertarian right of the national Party and act it's about getting the state out of people's lives. And in a lot of those issues, you can actually say the state interferes too much, whether it's providing drugs or whether it's trying to control whether people can can, can, can suicide or or or can assist others to suicide. So this is about the role of the state and society, and it's actually where I would argue that the kind [01:49:30] of libertarian edge of labour and the libertarian right form this odd not quite a pact, but it's where the rather than being a spectrum, it's almost like a a circle. Um, so I found the easiest conversations around prostitution law reform outside my own party, and the greens would have been with that group in that group of act, and some of the national MP S. So it's interesting is and it's it's fun stuff in Parliament because it does go beyond the political barriers, [01:50:00] which can get quite quite tiring on occasions. Uh, as you can imagine, it finally passed its third reading, I think on the 25th of June, 2003 following that, um, you had organisations like the Maxim Institute uh, petitioning to kind of reverse the law. How How can you talk to me about that? Oh, it's still I mean, there's still a process going on and people are trying to after 10 years, they're trying to undermine aspects of [01:50:30] it. Um, well, we we knew there was a danger that because it's so easy to tell lies around sex work because there's so many mysteries in it and such a lack of tangible research and lack of data, lack of evidence in some areas, you could argue you have to kind of work some of the solutions out by a series of suppositions rather than necessarily having the the hard knowledge. We were well aware that when the law went through, if it went through that, opponents [01:51:00] would continue to tell lies about it, and that could be undermining. So we, um we amended the legislation before it went through to allow the review committee to report after five years. So that was, uh, that was in place. And I reported in 2008, um, and I think it would have been good. I mean, one regret would be that it would have been better to have some kind of ongoing review because III I think now there would be more interesting findings. [01:51:30] And after that period, I think and he's looking at and there was government money released to research the impact of the law reform, whereas now there's no obligation to do it. It's going to sit there, I imagine. Um, so then, in the middle of that first five years, there was an attempt to get a citizens initiated a referendum on the issue, and that failed fairly, fairly overwhelmingly. And as we found out with the asset sales petition recently, it takes takes a very big effort to get get the numbers needed, [01:52:00] uh, to do that process, and they were nowhere near it and then, uh, united future in their 2005 coalition agreement. Um, they insisted on a further review. So that was also happening at the same time as the official review committee. So that was a a review of the effect of the law, and I think that process it kind of it sort of produced recommendations at the end. But it was it was. I mean, so far we've done what we've always done [01:52:30] in New Zealand, Having made these fairly bold steps in terms of social reform, we haven't gone backwards and it's been generally the case and all the issues that we haven't gone backwards. I think this one is by its nature and by the I think I think the deeply ingrained effect of criminalization on sex worker behaviour and on public attitudes and on client behaviour actually means that changes take longer. And that was one of the conclusions [01:53:00] from the five year review that that this is a 25 year process of of change, Uh and so we We're really only at the early stages of of seeing some of that happen, and there's certainly been a normalisation of the relationship between the police and sex workers, and I don't think the police would want to return to having to to act as kind of agents for parts of society that don't want to think about sex work and arresting and harassing sex workers. So I think [01:53:30] that's a paradigm shift which I'll be surprised to see reversed. I think the public health and other government agencies who often didn't in my view, um, sufficiently deliver their duty of care to sex workers and regarded them as groups that they didn't have to deal with. I think there's now a there's now a much greater acceptance that they are part of wider society. Um, I don't think we've seen adequate improvements [01:54:00] in employment conditions in brothels, but I think we have seen a growth in the self managed sex worker arrangements which get away from some of those abusive, uh, employment, uh, relationships. Um, one of the weaknesses in the law reform was that, um, immigration were given powers to, uh, to raid brothels effectively if they thought there were workers who were breaking their immigration, um, conditions, um, [01:54:30] and were the people who were working as sex workers, which the legislation prevented for those who are migrating in. So if you migrate to New Zealand, you can't use sex, work, experience or skills as a reason to migrate. And therefore, if somebody came in as a student or on a work for you or for some other occupation, they're found to be doing sex work and they are breaking the law and they're liable to deportation. And the way the law is worded around that, I think, is probably [01:55:00] a bit too overt and has given immigration a bit too much power to, uh, to create an ongoing tense relationship with sex workers. So that's, uh, that's just the way it is. Um, and I don't think it's likely there's going to be a tidy for the law in the near future. So So there's There's been ongoing kind of caution around some of those areas, so it's not perfect legislation. I give it fully in eight out of 10. But given that most of the world is sort of within one and two, then it's sort of it's it's out there. [01:55:30] I think New South Wales is maybe about six out of 10 on a good day. So in the last couple of years, um, there have been media stories about, um, various councils trying to, um, bring in local regulations in terms of where prostitution can happen. Do you have any thoughts about about that? I mean, I think that in my head, that's part of the those attempts to undermine the legislation, although I don't deny the lived experience of people in some communities who are feeling [01:56:00] a little and harassed or upset by the behaviour of sex workers. But I think the solution to that is around that the law reform opens up is to actually get a negotiation between sex workers and the community. And the police and council and other NGO S who are involved actually sit down and say, Is there a problem? What can we do about it and not to create a situation? As in the proposed bill, which is now the Auckland City Bill? I think, um, which [01:56:30] would essentially criminalise 50 people of whom I think they're all women and 47 or 48 or Maori or Pacific and all of whom are pretty marginal in society in living on comparatively low incomes. So I'm not sure that that legislation, as pointed as that actually has much place in our society, uh, and and It has to be the case that if there are, uh, if there's a nuisance in an area, that the solution is not just to point at those people and and [01:57:00] say you are breaking the law but to actually look at what's going on and come up with a solution in terms of where people do it and how they do it And if there's some kind of accord or way of having some influence on their behaviour, that that that people buy into and we're still too ready in the society to think of the answer to everything is to make it illegal, and the police will somehow deal with it when they they're not interested in dealing with it any longer. So ongoing tensions, including Christchurch, where there is similar similar pressure [01:57:30] Shortly after the prostitution reform bill was passed, we also had another, quite large piece of, um, social change, which was the Civil Union bill being introduced. What was the feeling within government at the time of of of these quite major social changes afoot, Um, well, I guess the civil Union it could have came from a different place. I mean, it was really us responding to what we're seeing around the world rather than coming up with our own solution. Because [01:58:00] there were movements in a few countries to, um, create some kind of legal status for same sex couples not initially really around marriage, but around registration and so on in Scandinavia. And then it started to spread out a bit. And as it spread out, the the models became a bit stronger and a bit closer to something you you could call equality. So that was happening. And I think it was a conversation that I had with Helen Clark back in about 2001 [01:58:30] or two, which was about looking at models of law reform in that area. And, uh, it ended up in our manifesto in Well, it must have been in 2002 elections. I think it was sort of 2001 to 2. I was asked to sort of go away and do some consultation with the the same sex communities. About what? What? What model was appropriate. And so we set up a little working, working party, [01:59:00] uh, of of people from Rainbow Labour and the wider community, and we looked at different models. I mean, including the issue of whether you just say marriage is the only acceptable model and we will accept nothing else or whether you come up with something that's equal we came up with with the concept which I still think had some intellectual rigour attached to it, Um, which was something which was legally, absolutely equal to marriage. Uh, and yet it wasn't called marriage. It was separate to marriage. And that responded to [01:59:30] the voice of many at that time in the the queer community, saying, We, we, we we're not after marriage, We're after the protections. We don't want this thing called marriage. And maybe that was partly because no one thought it was ever possible and it was born of pragmatism. And then the second thing which I don't think any other country did properly. But we we got quite a long way towards which is a separate piece of legislation which was basically tidying up all the laws so that where the law [02:00:00] mentions marriage, it also mentions civil union. So we we did the tidy up, which got a lot more support in Parliament and and yet in some In some ways there's more radical because it was delivering what the Human Rights Act says, that we can't discriminate on the basis of relationship status. So we now have that principle applied to New Zealand law, which is, and that was lean in particular, who was, um, who was sort of rigorous about that. And it led to a lot of delays in getting the whole project [02:00:30] off the ground. But it was, I mean, looking back on it, I think it was conceptually very powerful because it embedded civil union in a broader human rights principle that we shouldn't discriminate on the basis of whatever relationship people were in or weren't in, which is fair enough, obviously. And so So we took time to sort of get that legislation underway. And then the the particular model of Civil Union. Of course, the one I mean the the inequality built into it. Um, [02:01:00] apart from the conceptual inequality that you can't get married. Uh, but the legal package was was, was identical or wasn't identical. It was absolutely the same, but worded differently. Uh, so adoption was the only area left out of that. Um, and arguably it's not necessarily included in marriage equality now, I mean, it's still a bit of a a ongoing debate around that area even now. So, um, [02:01:30] so that was what that was what the debate was about. So what we did in the 2002 election that our manifesto included a commitment to introduce, um, civil union legislation, but with a free vote in parliament with the conscience vote. And that was so I think it came from a good place in terms of, um, starting to tackle that issue, but also dealing with the prostitution reform. I think it was, I think for many people, it was quite a fraught combination of issues. I mean, generally got the same sort of [02:02:00] people in our caucus supporting both, probably civil union was seen as a bit more mainstream, but it also came after prostitution reform. So people were a bit kind of jaded by that, Uh, the opposition to civil union was more organised, but I think intellectually had a weaker base. And so it didn't I don't think it had a massive effect on people. Um, in parliament, there were some strange opponents, including many who [02:02:30] were born again supporters of marriage equality. So coming back to that debate in New Zealand after being away for a while was quite a a revelation, really, to people had voted for homosexual law reform and then voted against civil union but thought marriage was wonderful. Um, including the bizarre Judith Collins, who said that during the civil Union debate she voted against the civil Union because she said she'd only vote for equality and nothing [02:03:00] else. And then she did. To her credit, I guess she then voted for for marriage, equality. But, I mean, a lot of the arguments she'd used around Civil Union were were homophobic, in my view. So it was kind of just a whole lot of nonsense. It was a poll poll led support, in my view and the fact that Obama came out and around the world, there was clearly a bigger movement happening. But I think we're the ninth country to get the marriage equality stuff through. And we were the first country outside Europe to legislate for equal status for same sex relationships, [02:03:30] which essentially is what what the civil Union did. So I think we probably I mean, I I think we had a tougher fight on that compared to the marriage equality debate. And it was, um and as as your question some minutes ago suggested, I mean, it was it came at a slightly difficult political time because it was leading into, uh, the 2002 election, which was a fairly easy. That's what the commitment was. And then the vote was 2004. [02:04:00] So it led in that to lead into 2005 election, which was a lot tougher for Labour, where even in the last week we looked like we were going to lose. So it was a difficult political time, and it fed into that sense that this government said six years and they're doing things which are not popular. And labour is always about minorities and all that. All that stuff which, um which progressive political groupings always get because we're concerned with people's rights. Can you talk, uh, for a few minutes about, um so [02:04:30] some of the opposition to the civil unions bill, Um, I'm thinking of places organisations like Destiny Church and, um, what kind of effect that very public opposition had on you. Well, the, um the Max Institute really got going towards the end of the prostitution reform legislation and they played a fairly significant role around and they were the intellectual opposition to a civil union. But so much so because I chaired the select [02:05:00] Committee that dealt with the Civil Union Bill which led to attacks on me being biassed. Uh, obviously, um, we only allowed two organisation no. Three organisations to have, I think, half an hour each in front of the committee. So one was Maxim, um against the legislation. One was a campaign for civil unions, and then they had the Human Rights Commission to give a kind of more, I guess, more sort of rights based legal approach to the whole thing. So apart [02:05:30] from that, we just had a lot of individuals doing five minutes each and then five minutes of questions, and that went on for many hours. So we heard 200 or 300 people altogether in that format. And so the opposition was the opposition in front of the committee was was measured and careful. I think the the individuals or the churches particularly and a few NGO S who came out against were um, often remnants of opponents from homosexual [02:06:00] law reform. They were generally measured and careful. I think they realised they were dealing with a very different composition of Parliament to Parliament in those days. So they were It would be easier to upset people than than language would have been then. So it was No, I mean I. I shared the thing. And even I did have some MP who were against civil union asking me afterwards if I was OK because they'd heard such bizarre things about the gay community from these people. And it was it was like water off a ducks back. [02:06:30] You just have to take the stuff sometimes. And they were absolutely entitled to their opinion. Um, so the then externally, apart from Maxim, uh, there were more public meetings. There were more. There was more public debate about it than there was about prostitution law reform. Um, and of course, national Party. They didn't have a whip whip against civil union, but they didn't have many MP S who are prepared to come out in favour. I think a hand picked [02:07:00] very small group, I think. Is it 54 or five? Mitch Pansy Wong Catherine Rich. That might be it three or four only. So we needed to make sure that so in in, conversely, we had fewer labour MP S who who, uh, ultimately voted against. And we didn't, uh, New Zealand first were pretty well opposed to it, So it was. It was tough. It was a different parliament against the United Future were weaker. So on those [02:07:30] issues that made it a bit easier. But, um, it's a bit closer to party lines, but certainly not completely, um, Destiny Church were were kind of loud, but I thought fairly ineffectual and actually helped the cause. By the end, I mean, they were. They produced thousands of submissions, but they were all identical to each other, just signed by different people. And they didn't ever produce a primary submission, so they never actually came to the Select committee. They produced vast numbers of submissions which sat in the box, but they were all [02:08:00] they weren't. They weren't They didn't understand anything about the rules of the system. Then they had the march on Parliament that looked like a bunch of black shirts approaching the building, and and a lot of people on that march were not clear what they were marching about because it was similar time to the foreshore and seabed debate. It's got a kind of complex political period. Um uh, and the image of that march, I think, was scary enough to a lot of people to influence public opinion. So whereas [02:08:30] the prostitution law reform, there's always a big block who are undecided and opinion in the few polls that that happened were broadly in favour of the law reform fairly tightly. Um, when it came to Civil Union, it was a stronger bunch of people in favour. Um, I think I think if marriage had been polled at the time, it would been quite strongly against marriage because it was an option seen as a middle way. Uh, but that wasn't to be. And then the select committee, because it was a government bill or the the Select Committee process was a lot quicker [02:09:00] than it was for prosecution, law reform. And in a sense, there wasn't. There was a lot of changes made around the details of of amending all these 180 pieces of legislation that mentioned marriage, so there was a lot of detailed debate. But the, um, there wasn't a lot of discretion to look at the the model essentially, and there wasn't there was. There were only a handful of submissions against civil union in favour of marriage, but the [02:09:30] most memorable was Marilyn Waring, who, um, was produce what I could carefully call a provocative submission with, um, lots of slides with pictures of benches in South Africa with whites here and blacks there and saying that we were embedding legislation that fundamentally treated people as 1st and 2nd class citizens. And she was entitled to that. There was a herself and, uh, Jenny, Jenny Rowan and Jules and [02:10:00] Nigel Christie, who formed a a kind of lobby for marriage. Um, and they were I mean, their argument was was really about political tactics, and we knew that if we'd tried that, it would have failed. And the man the mandate wasn't for that. The mandate from the manifesto was to produce something which gave real rights, and we got as far as equal rights. But But the difference was part of the mandate we had so we could have just not done any of that and waited [02:10:30] until the marriage debate came along. So I think then it would have been more difficult because I think seeing civil unions in operation actually did persuade some people that the sky hadn't fallen in and that good things were happening. So it was It was an interesting two stage exercise. So I think we went from fairly advanced legislation that had some inequalities embedded to, uh, a a reasonably modest piece of marriage equality legislation. So the leap wasn't that great. My [02:11:00] understanding of the homosexual law reform in the mid eighties was that it was very much, um, initially community driven. So they went to with with with the idea with civil unions. Did that same thing happen or was it more coming from the actual party itself? The Labour Party? Well, I mean, I guess if you go back, yeah, I mean, we initiated the initial consultation with which included Nigel and Jenny and others on that [02:11:30] initial consultation committee. We set up a website and we got submissions from the community. But, you know, and you'd be right to say that it was us initiating that, um, there was clearly interest in the lesbian and gay media around the issue of relationship status, um, and less debate than in other countries. Maybe about the model. Uh, in that sense, it was a more centralised process of labour making a decision about the model or the greens going along with it as being a step [02:12:00] forward, The act supporting it again. Um, although they had a bit of a moral right wing by then. So they were a bit split a Rodney Hyde, absolutely supportive of it. So, um, yeah, I think it would be true to say it wasn't a It wasn't a classic, community driven model. I think part of the community were quite surprised that the government were prepared to move in that direction. And I think for Helen Clark, it was a significant piece of legislation around human rights and [02:12:30] recognising a a group of New Zealanders and with the Destiny Church as, uh, enough as an enough march, uh, through Wellington to Parliament. Were you were you at Parliament that day? No, that the committee was meeting somewhere else hearing evidence in Auckland. It was quite useful. You keep well out of that. It's better. So it's hard when you're in government. When you're part of the governing party to work out how to handle sort of demonstrations like that. Like, do you go? Do you turn up to argue just to keep one [02:13:00] out of it and let the community do the arguing? I think that I think that is one place where the community came out to do the arguing. I mean, Georgina was there to help sort of drive it up, but, uh, I think it was right that the community did that. And so when you saw that kind of thing on TV in the news What? What? What did you think? Us? I mean, because we were We were sort of intensely working through a parliamentary process, and that group hadn't hadn't organised themselves to engage with us. It felt [02:13:30] fairly alien to what we were doing. And the messages felt, um I think I think probably I felt well, this is This is a point at which, uh, this debate is probably one for us because the visual images of that, um, march were pretty powerfully hostile in a way that a lot of New Zealanders wouldn't like. And I think that, uh, I think it I I think it would have been possible to design a campaign against the Soviet Union that could have won. But I think once that bit of the campaign, [02:14:00] um began, it was never going to win. So I felt that I felt my secondary feeling was OK. Well, these people have probably helped us, which is the last thing they wanted to do. So and there's I mean, I mean, it's hard. It's very hard to get a positive image about prostitution, law reform. There were a few attempts, uh, which are like kind of veer into humour or veer into to something that's too mysterious for people to understand. There were a few visual images which we did use, which are quite effective, but by its nature it's hard to do. [02:14:30] And there are many more negative images around the sex industry. But when it came to civil union, the the negative image of the march and the positive image of of loving couples is quite different. So I think probably, though being involved in the two campaigns taught me something about the importance of visual imaging to make a difference. You were saying earlier that there were quite a number of people and couples that were were putting themselves out there publicly in terms of, you know, we're [02:15:00] a couple, and we want, you know, kind of equal rights. What were some of the most memorable kind of images for you in in the civil Union campaign? Oh, I think we we did. We had rallies outside Parliament. I think the day that the vote that would be the third reading there was a final reading and we had a big rally outside Parliament. That was, um, that was powerful. I think the the kind of engage the engagement with people from other parties. I think it was, [02:15:30] um, one of the act MP S managed their side of the campaign and then Catherine Rich for the National Party. And I think Sue Sue Bradford again for the Green Party. I mean that that level of cooperation, though, that those images are important. Um, I think John and Des, the kind of the archetypal older gay couple, [02:16:00] um, in their submission to the committee, which was very emotionally powerful and their presence all through it and then their their first, their civil union, which was one of the very, very, very first ones afterwards. I mean, that was that was powerful. I went to I went to about a dozen civil unions in the first year. Uh, and just watching the impact of the ceremony on the heterosexual, uh, family members of the couple was pretty powerful. [02:16:30] I think for some, they understood for the first time about what this thing this relationship was about when they had to see it more in its totality. When you're actually at a ceremony that will feel like a marriage. So that was that was that was powerful. I think those images are probably more powerful than what went before, and some couple was going to the select committee. I mean, there's a lot of arguments with the same and we're hearing again and again. But the media locally, Christchurch, [02:17:00] Auckland, Hamilton Um, the media locally liked to to use stories linked to the committee and we and that was very important in building up a level of public understanding and support. What was the media response like? Oh, a lot more overwhelmingly favourable. Um, less mystery about the legislation. Um, even though it was largely the same bunch of reports It was so near to the end [02:17:30] of the prostitution law reform. It was the same people. Um, they they were looking for human interest stories. There was a more coherent public campaign, really. Two campaigns. It was the Auckland and Wellington campaigns and other Christchurch and other smaller campaigns. Um, and the, uh, the one page newspaper advert which the Auckland campaign organised to show support at the right time. And so the media was seeing a lot of kind of wealth of [02:18:00] external groups saying things we didn't have to worry about. All that media explanation which in prostitution law reform was largely left to me and my staff in my office and whatever we could throw together in terms of briefing notes. So even having a a functional website helped. So it just felt like a more sophisticated campaign, and we were able to get the email wizard working for the the pressure before the final vote. So the MP S were receiving lots of individual [02:18:30] messages from people who had nominated them to receive their messages. And so, uh, it will be a lot different now in terms of, uh of Twitter and some of the the email functions. But it was it felt like an easier campaign, and it was more, um, empowering campaign for people who were involved, they could actually do something. And we channelled lots of people to go and see MP S and to try and pressure them. It's a really interesting point about the technology, because I'm thinking that in the [02:19:00] early two thousands, I mean, the Internet hasn't been around or widely used for that long. I mean, at least some of the first campaigns where you've you know, where things have been like mass emails and mass submissions to the select committee, or was the mass submissions have been around some time? In fact, most of them in those days were posted, although it was allowed by email. I think towards the end of that period, but in terms of the lobby where emailing is, the main lobby [02:19:30] tool was a lot more was a lot easier between the two pieces of legislation and the prostitutes collective have spent many years trying to get their website together. I think they finally have now, but they were never very sharp in that stuff, whereas the the young young, queer people involved in civil union. It was just second nature to get that stuff off the ground. So a lot of people, actually, I mean now got involved in, uh, campaign activity through the civil union legislation. [02:20:00] It was a very empowering campaign and had many edges I never even saw because it was happening all over the place. So our central operation with prostitution law reform, it was really a lot of the lobby side was run from my parliamentary office and there was no separate organisation at all. It was me and the prostitutes collective and a few of the other key MP S. And that was that with a few very generally fairly distant support organisations. But when it came to civil Union, my office didn't need to do all that. We dealt with some of the media around [02:20:30] it, but we were able to do research. So we had a whole research project based in our our office around, um uh, analysing the submissions. So, uh, and then able to use some of that analysis when we went back for the second reading and the committee stage in the third reading so that it was a lot more focused as a parliamentary organising activity and also the, uh where is the opponents and prostitution law? If we managed to [02:21:00] run an anti campaign that peaked at just about the right time and they nearly won, Um, when it came to Civil Union, they didn't really manage to get the the the negative stuff going there only, I mean, the only line they had, which really worked, um, for some people was that we were trying to ape marriage and that we we were being dishonest. And what we should really be doing was saying, We believe in marriage and that's what's going to happen. And there were more [02:21:30] than one quote for me saying, We're not about marriage. We're about We're about creating a legal status and protection and so on, which which could have become a hostage to fortune with the marriage, equality debate. And none of us expected a marriage equality debate within within seven years. It was, I mean, that there's a a lot of reasons for that, but it was It was interesting when you're in the thick of something like civil unions, uh, that that campaign, how many hours [02:22:00] a week would you be spending on on on that? Oh, when when Parliament's not on, you'd be writing stuff. You might go occasionally to a meeting, but when Parliament's there and you're particularly when you're dealing with the legislation when it's up for a discussion, it would dominate your week that you were there and your colleagues would would see the issue as being about you, and so they would create the space for you to do what you needed to do. So it would be, Oh, it would be, [02:22:30] I don't know, 15, 16 hour days during the most intense period of of the law reform? Absolutely. Um, and it would be a combination of media conversations with MP S. Making sure written material is getting out a lot of contact from lobbyists just trying to find out good advice on what to do. We had, um, we've had to produce lists for the lobby of which MP thought which way, and then the lobby would go and talk to them and [02:23:00] feed stuff back. And we would certainly build up a picture of where MP S were at and see which MP S were, um, changing their mind or seem vulnerable to that. Um, it was never civil Union. Never seemed that tight. I mean, the final majority, I think it was only 10, But after having managed prostitution law reform, it felt it never felt as though we were going to lose. It felt as though it was going to be reasonably tight. It was still I mean, the whole process of getting it through was still pretty pretty amazing. [02:23:30] And, of course, it was a government bill, so it meant that I was a bit more protected. I didn't have to front up to everything. So there was a government minister involved. Um, it was Leanne. He ended up being David Benson Pope, Associate Justice Minister. He wouldn't have been the first MP who would have thought of to front civil union. Um, but actually did a Really, I thought a very kind of honourable job because it was a It was his task. I mean, he was a minister, and probably if he'd [02:24:00] had had his choice, he would have liked it to be a few years down the track. But he he it was already well underway when he took over, and he he never he never made a mistake. In my view, he fronted it as a as a in a very straight matter of fact way, which he needed. Michael Cullen was very passionate about the the Soviet Union legislation because he as a history lecturer, he'd actually taught about his about marriage, the history of marriage so he could he could attack some of the [02:24:30] the arguments that said that that this was not nothing like this had ever happened before. Which, of course, is the cycles of history that this has happened previously in different forms. Um, and that his support was great because it was quite unexpected. Uh, which was good. Active support was unexpected. Um, but it was, Yeah, the internal. And it wasn't the same internal angst about the issue. It was just that concern. I mentioned earlier that this coming on top of the prostitution law reform made [02:25:00] things slightly tricky and difficult for for the political party that was promoting them. But as it was, we we won a third term, which is not not certain in New Zealand by any means. And we got it having done some pretty, uh, pretty powerful things. Can you talk about the toll that being so intimately involved in these types of legislation has on you or if it has a toddler. [02:25:30] Ah, you get stereotyped. And I mean, if if people are generous, they stereotype you, somebody who's fighting for important things and it's not really a stereotype, but they get recognised as somebody who's who's out to support minorities and, et cetera, et cetera, and doing stuff which is innately important. So some of the feedback I got was it was very warm and quite personal from people, and I think quite heartfelt and from people who would normally [02:26:00] feel fairly alienated in politics over seeing things happen, which I thought were pretty wonderful, Uh, because they were so out there for New Zealand and it followed a pattern of New Zealand doing a doing out there things in terms of social legislation. So I think that I think that would apply to a lot of people in the Labour Party and quite a lot of people in the greens and on the left of politics and people who've got no great interest. We just liked that stuff being being worked on. That was one that would be one issue and then I think Secondly, [02:26:30] and that was gratifying. Then there was a group who regarded us all as a bit of a kind of a bit awkward and that that we were somehow putting the party at some political risk. And so that was That was kind of worrying because because some of those people people are sort of quite liked and people who did believe in the issue that just always said There's a better time to do this And the time is not now, because I mean, the reality of the political cycle is, if it hadn't [02:27:00] happened, then it would have been 10 or 15 years ahead, and we have been in the same mess that Australia is in on on some of these issues. And then there were the people who were, uh, different stages of being vehemently opposed. It rarely got personal. Uh, and my staff probably protected me from a lot more than I ever knew in terms of stuff that was said on the phone or written to me or whatever. I didn't There's a lot of stuff I wouldn't necessarily have seen, which was just personally abusive. Um, got [02:27:30] a few threats during the Soviet Union. Legislation that were were taken a little seriously because they seemed to be more than just casual sort of references to stuff, but nothing that got me really scared. I think New Zealanders debate these things on a pretty sort of intellectual and fair and balanced level. I made sure that I was never denigrating of the opponents, but respected their right to say what they were saying and that wanted to make [02:28:00] sure that they had their voice at select committee and and and so forth. And they, if they ever did make a point that was, was, was persuasive, that that would be identified. And there were a few, Um, I'm trying to think of examples. There were a few points made by opponents that were, um, were were relevant, I think. I mean, there's an awful lot that was discriminatory nonsense. But there was There were some bits that were relevant in which, um [02:28:30] which we needed to make sure we thought about carefully and if that oddly enough because we went, we went for legislation that created a difference from marriage. Um, a lot of the opponents found it hard to voice their concerns because because they were they were. They were pleased there was a difference. And they wanted to make the difference as wide as possible and obviously wanted to reduce the rights. Whereas it was possible, conceptually, to do something that was a parallel structure [02:29:00] that was quite a complicated debate. So in terms of personal impact through all that, I mean, I guess I mean the upside to me is that I mean, it's helped to create a bit of a sense of a legacy in in, uh, terms of legislation and a legacy that can be built on, as has happened with marriage. Equality. That's that's the upside, Um, and do some weaving of the common ground between political parties, which I think is quite, uh, a good thing to do in our political system. [02:29:30] Um, I think the negative is potentially. If if I've been very concerned about a kind of career path in politics, it wasn't necessarily the best best stuff to go out with. I mean, it was combined with the work chairing the Select committee and up until the last three years, and then the job of being the senior whip. So I had a I had a whole different narrative about my role in Parliament. So in that sense, these were We're kind of sidelines to my mainstream career and representing the [02:30:00] electorate. But they are also the bits that people knew and know the bits people remember. So they're important. Um, and But I look, look back on them and I. I think we did things that have helped to improve people's lives individually and as a class or classes of people who are marginalised by sexuality or sexual activity, um, who are now near the heart of our society. Then that's got to be a good thing. So I think that's that's the one [02:30:30] thing that would remain with me as it happened, not not in the civil Union, but in terms of prostitution law reform. I mean, that led to some international work, and I think may may in the future because there is some interest or quite a lot of interest globally in getting appropriate law around sex work. And the opponents of DECRIMINALISATION have become more more powerful since our law reform and, uh, it's it's quite a deep and [02:31:00] bitter and complex um, battle of ideas globally on that on that issue where New Zealand plays a uniquely important part. I mean, we are the country cited in in papers and documents and presentations around the world as having the kind of law reform the only kind of law reform that will actually sustainably protect protect people, I'd argue, protect wider society as well. So that's important. And that's an ongoing debate, and it will be ongoing for some time. [02:31:30] I suspect you mentioned briefly about the political cycle in terms of things coming around in like 10, 15 years cycle. Can you just describe to me what what that means? Um oh, it means, I mean, I think there's a time. I mean, if he believes that generally these issues are going to be more progressed under a, um, a labour government or a labour green government or progressive government. Uh, and you tend to do things in your first two terms rather than your last term. [02:32:00] And then there is broadly a cycle of two or three terms of government by led by the left and the right, which is actually survived into M MP in different composition. But broadly um so really, if you then look at the the reality of the arithmetic. If if you think of the Labour government between, say, 4004 as being in reforming zeal and then think forward to when there might next be a Labour government [02:32:30] in that period with a normal cycle is going to be another 9 to 12 years ahead. So there's moments in history when you're doing things and marriage. Equality came from a different place because oddly, um, the great faith of the National Party completely changed their mind on the issue. Uh, for whatever reason, So that was a slight anomaly. But generally, a lot of the issues I mentioned are not going to progress much on anything but a progressive government. And it needs preparation. And it needs a government to have a commitment [02:33:00] to go in with. And it needs the right lobby groups and a whole lot of stuff lining up together, including the right MP to to champion the issues. So when you're building policies and your manifesto, you're thinking in that kind of 9 to 12 year cycle. Oh, and the I mean, you wouldn't necessarily get these being debated much in the manifesto stage. I mean, both of these pieces of legislation were justified in a sense, for labour by being [02:33:30] in our manifesto, but also part of our value base. Um, but the big debates and manifestos would be about the big spending items. Uh, rather than being about about issues like this. Um, but certainly you're if you're planning a debate on these issues, I think increasingly, Um, particularly when it comes an issue like euthanasia or drug law reform that we will be looking to external bodies [02:34:00] which are not numerous in our society, external bodies to provide informed input on the issues and the law commission, Human Rights Commission, um, potentially research institutes or independent sort of people's initiated discussions. But something externally to really get people sort of going and interest in the issue. And there's a lot nowadays. You get things like the vote programme on TV, where these these sort of issues are teased [02:34:30] out. So I think there's a lot more interest in in how you actually achieve change. But I think it is still that magic confluence of a series of things, including the government in power, including the individual, including getting the right policy response. And I think in, I think, uh in drug law reform. Getting the right policy response is is hellishly difficult and, uh, being able to tell lies about the effect? The [02:35:00] likely effect of any particular law is, um is considerable, I think I think it makes that quite a fraught area. Euthanasia to an extent, the same, Um, because there are different models of of the process. But I think I think it's possible to come up with a whole series of checks and balances there which have been pretty well tested elsewhere, Um, abortion, law reform or potentially law around gambling and so on. I mean, that's largely, [02:35:30] um, sort of cyclical and abortion law. Often people don't want to go near in Parliament, and and there's a real aversion to dealing with that well, not because I think it's going to be a reversal of the law, but just because it's the opponents of any liberalisation of the law are particularly virulent, and the Catholic Church has got pretty strong feelings on that issue, but they're in. They're interesting ones, but you really have to go and grab the moment on some of them not always possible to plan as well as one might want to. [02:36:00] The civil Union bill passed, I think, on the ninth of December 19, 2004, and it was by 65 to 55. And that's actually quite a large margin. Can you compare that to things like, say, the prostitution reform, but also earlier to the homosexual law reform, where there were very tight margins? Yeah, homosexual law reform. I was six or seven. It was It wasn't tight to the prosecution. Um [02:36:30] oh, I think it's I mean, I think it's reflective of the fact that we have a pretty mature and stable democracy in which there are two big political groupings which, as I said, have almost survived M MP. And now we are the core of a wider grouping. But we're still there as the left and the right, or the progressive and the conservative. Uh, and there isn't a massive gap generally in Parliament between them, I mean the gap. Now I mean the people we look at the last election result. It was Labour's worst for [02:37:00] very many years. But when you look at the groupings in Parliament. It's it's sort of 61 to 59 and lots of votes. So still not, I mean, because New Zealand first and the greens and Labour tend to vote on block and lots of things. So, um that that that that hasn't changed a lot. So the reason why why conscience votes are going to be um similar is that it's very hard to find issues that cut across a swathe of MP S independent entirely [02:37:30] of their ideology. Maybe an initial like euthanasia might do that. Maybe that that your ideology could be almost independent of what you think on the issue. I don't see many people arguing euthanasia in terms of of political principle, around freedoms or state control or whatever. It's much more about their personal beliefs, their personal fears, their life experiences and so forth, so that that might be [02:38:00] a different, different issue. And certainly the voting so far and that indicates there's quite a kind of complicated dynamic going on. But generally, um, there's a history in New Zealand of of two big blocks in parliament, fairly tight votes when it comes to these issues, and then once they're through and the sky doesn't fall in. We we move on. So I think it's I think it's the same pattern we're seeing again and again. And euthanasia is the one that has failed. I mean, it's had one, if not two first reading votes where the [02:38:30] the draught legislation hasn't got through. That's clearly the one which, uh, needs, I think, quite a lot of work on it, because I think when I as a progressive person, I believe that there should be legislation in that area, and drug law reform hasn't even really got as far as a vote. And arguably it would happen in lots of different ways. It wouldn't be one big debate on the issue. It would happen happen incrementally, And it would happen through policing, practise and a whole lot of other things, so that one again can be achieved in other ways. [02:39:00] Just kind of wrapping up now. And I'm just wondering if you can reflect on, uh, the Marriage equality bill that has gone through, uh, this year and also the Civil Union bill in 2004, and just I'm just wondering to get your thoughts on, you know, whether in some ways you, um, wish it had been married in 2004, but also if, um, the civil unions hadn't gone through whether we would have [02:39:30] succeeded with marriage in 2013, I think if we had of civil unions would have succeeded in something short of marriage, which I I guess, in Australia the states can do some things, so that would probably avoid them passing legislation that was federally that would be something short of marriage. But I i out of fear that we'll end up we would have ended at this time of something less. Um, I do think we deflected a lot of the opposition there, and I think we built a a wider public [02:40:00] support for the concept than was existing prior to that legislation. So I think that's a significant achievement politically. Um, as I said, I think I think because I'd, uh, helped to champion Civil Union, that I didn't really want to be publicly involved in the marriage debates. I think it, um I think it would have been a confusing message for people. Uh, and and it was a genuine political surprise to me [02:40:30] that the debate was happening so soon, um, particularly championed by some of the people who are championing it from the other side politically. And so it was. It felt to me like their debate rather than my debate in a sense, and having had a civil union II I felt pretty sort of happy with that status. But also knowing that the legislation would allow that to be translated through to, uh, marriage when if and when we wanted to do that. So, um, I think [02:41:00] it was a gentle debate. Marriage, equality. I mean, some of the same opponents were there, but the public mood was never really in doubt. And the parliamentary mood was never really in doubt. And it was handled very well by Lewis and by Kevin Hague and and some of the other champions of it. So it was. It felt to me, like something which was a lot more mature than what we'd had to go through, Um, but was was innately helped by that earlier process. I'm not sure all [02:41:30] the people involved in sort of promoting marriage equality saw it quite like that. But that was my view. And I thought that was my view was unimportant. I decided early at an early stage my party had a pretty clear view, and my job was to be the general secretary of the party and not to not to to to to engage in these arguments too much. They didn't need to, I think went to a couple of meetings of some of the campaigns for marriage equality. Um, just to talk a bit about the civil union experience and what people [02:42:00] are likely to be up against and particularly to talk about the process and one of my other projects as an MP was to help to demystify the parliamentary process by training groups in how to lobby. And so we use some of that material in writing a submission and presenting a submission when groups were planning their their input on marriage, equality and there were a heap of massively talented people involved in that campaign. That was another revelation. I guess if you look at prostitution law reform, very [02:42:30] little public campaign in favour and then look at civil union, there was a public campaign. It was fairly tight, but it was certainly there and then when it came to marriage, equality. It was bubbling up all over the place and people were happy to do big marches through the streets. And, uh, there were more public allies from non queer organisations. The media didn't really voice any. I mean, didn't give much publicity to the opposition. I mean, insofar as it made kind of entertaining reading, they did, but their [02:43:00] view is pretty clear. So there was a clear there was a kind of maturing of the way that if you see all three pieces of legislation as being in a sense about similar issues and there is a bit of an overlap, and I think it was a very good third stage in the whole thing, it's a pity that the adoption issue is not sort of clarified because that still remains as a tiny bit of an anomaly. And I the issue of the role of the clergy [02:43:30] and the role of churches is quite an interesting one, because I don't I don't, uh I'm not that convinced that our Human Rights Act is clear on whether or not churches really have an exemption. There were a whole area is very complex in terms of law and needs to be sorted without threatening the churches at all. I just think it's It's a bit anomalous that public public bodies can behave in certain ways and hold certain views in our society. [02:44:00] That's a private thought. It's not a Labour Party thought, so they probably I mean, this is, I guess one thing is a reflection. It probably it's more about the the prostitution reform, because that's a more unique New Zealand journey than, um, I think the combination of civil union and marriage equality has got is unusual globally in in the way it happened. Um, because civil union was pretty advanced. And then we've shifted one stage further to marriage equality. Um, [02:44:30] but I think there's there are there are lessons about the lobby process and about, uh, explaining difficult issues and so on, which, particularly from the prostitution law reform, we, um, is yet to really be written up. I mean, it's, uh, it's a complex thing to do, but I think there's a resource there that other countries can learn from in terms of why the law was changed, the effect it had on the ground, the arguments that were used and so forth [02:45:00] and and I when I was working in South Africa on some of these issues, I was was using quite a lot of that material from my own head. But there's a real need to for New Zealand to be less, um, cautious about promoting what we've done, which we're proud of because we're not having done these things. We don't, uh, we as a country, we don't fly the flag for them overseas. It's just the way that things happen here. Whereas other countries, when they when they deliver such law reforms, [02:45:30] they are often a lot more upfront about, uh, talking about the issues. So Sweden came up with a very different law around prostitution, which was to criminalise a client. But decriminalise the sex worker, uh, which has many internal tensions, as you can imagine. Um, but they their government very strongly promotes that law reform in a whole lot of international forums. Whereas I'd be surprised beyond the minimum if New Zealand [02:46:00] had ever spoken much about its law on sex work unless it really had to globally. So I think we're a bit I think we're a bit coy about that. I think we're also a bit coy about the fact that we have a significant influence on countries very close to us, like Cook Islands do two new way where gay is still illegal and sex workers are still criminal. But we don't really Yeah, we don't really work that through in the way that we should. So I think there's a bit. I think we are a [02:46:30] bit internalised about these things that we are a reflection more than anything else. I think there's something to be proud about and in our journey on them, and we don't need to be afraid about talking about that and seeking to persuade others who we have influence over that, maybe they should be doing the same things.

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TITLE: Torfrida and Ali profile
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VOICES: Ali Watersong; Torfrida Wainwright
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; A Long Undressing (play); Ali Watersong; Antarctica; Aotearoa New Zealand; CTV Building; Canterbury earthquake 2011; Christchurch; Cris Williamson; Dunedin; Gap Filler; Green Party; Greenham Common Women's Peace Camp; Hag farm (Banks Peninsula); Holly Near; Lambda Centre; Lambda Coffee House (Christchurch); Lesbian Summer Camp; ME / Chronic Fatigue Syndrome; Michael Parmenter; Michigan Womyn's Music Festival; Māori; Paekākāriki; Regulation Bloomers; Rule Foundation; Takaka; Timebank; Torfrida Wainwright; Women's Conference; Women's Refuge; Women's Sacred Mysteries Group (Canterbury); Women's dance (Christchurch); activism; ageing; butch; climate change; community; dance; death; dyke; feminism; femme; gender identity; homosexual law reform; identity; labels; lesbian; marriage; marriage equality; media; mirroring; music; parents; peace; pets; politics; profile; psychodrama; relationships; reunions; separatism; social justice; spaces; spirituality; tramping; values
DATE: 10 November 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Christchurch, Christchurch, Canterbury
CONTEXT: In this podcast Torfrida and Ali talk about the lesbian scene in Canterbury in the 1980s and their personal journeys.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, my name is Allie Waterson. And, um, I want to say something about my name Waterson because that's a name I chose. I, um I chose that name in 1983. Um and that was part of not wanting to continue on the patriarchal heritage of my father's line. And, um, I I don't know how I actually chose a name. It sort of came to me. I think I might have read an American [00:00:30] magazine and, you know, with Native American names in it. And it was a name that was in there, but, um because my, um the name that I'd grown up with was Allie Watkins. Um, and my friends, um, in the mountain nearing community used to call me or something like that. I wanted to keep that initial WAT and water song. Um, [00:01:00] just seemed to be the right name because I love water and I'm a cancer. So I'm a water sign and I'm a musician and I sing so water song and my Maori friends call me a And, um I've I grew up. I was born in Christchurch and I grew up in Christchurch. Um, I have lived at Mount cook for sort of nine or 10 years in the [00:01:30] 19 seventies, so I don't know a lot about the Christchurch gay lesbian scene. LBG LGBT scene in the seventies Um, I, um, fell in love with a woman in 1979 and thought I just happened to have fallen in love with a woman. And then, um, a bit later, I fell in love with another woman, and so I thought interesting. And so then I started. [00:02:00] Um, try exploring the lesbian scene in Christchurch. I've moved back to Christchurch by then and, um would go to women's dances. And, uh, there were, um, regular women's dances happening in the eighties. Um, I don't know how often they happen, but and I guess it was one of the few social things that happened. So, you know, there were lots of women who would come along to them. Um, To begin with, I would just go for about 10 minutes and then [00:02:30] run away again. And then gradually, I, um, built up my confidence. The other thing that was happening in Christchurch then that was of the social, um, side was the, um, Lambda Coffee house. And, um, Thursday nights was lesbian night, and so I'd go along to Lambda, um, and try to meet some other lesbians and to begin with, you know, I felt quite discouraged because, you know, [00:03:00] the only people I would meet with people that the only thing we had in common was that we are lesbians. I didn't meet any other kindred spirits. Really? So it took a wee while before I sort of found my, um I guess my people within the lesbian community. Um, what I remember about the eighties was a time a time of, um once I got involved in the lesbian community, there was a time of, [00:03:30] um What? Um well, I was thinking about, you know, lesbian summer camp. We had a lot of, um we had I think the first lesbian summer camp was in 1984 and we had a camp out at, um um, every summer, and women from all over New Zealand would come or, you know, lots from the south Island and a few from the north island. And, um, [00:04:00] we ran those for I was on part of the organising committee and we ran those for about four or five years. Five or six years. And he had all sorts of workshops there. All sorts of, um, swimming in the river. Um, I mean, they were fantastic events. Really? So that was a big part of, um, that was, you know, a sort of a big part of the social year, I suppose, Um, there was a lot of, [00:04:30] um, you know, a music group. Oh, yes, I was in. I was in a, um, regulation bloomers, which was a a group of four of us were a band. I was the only lesbian in the group at that stage. But then after after we split up, one of the others came out as well that we were together for 10 years, and we played at a lot of different, um, events that were, you know, had a a social protest type sort of agenda. [00:05:00] I suppose so. You know, um, and we played women's music, so we played a lot of Holly Neer songs and Chris Williamson songs, and so, um, um, songs with a with a a social message. I remember being very active in 1986 with the homosexual law reform bill. And remember going on many marches in that time and going to church services and being [00:05:30] told I love you, but not your act to go to that dreadful meeting. Where? Where did you come to that awful meeting where we were surrounded by them. You know, we thought this is a crazy thing to do. Why do we? Why do we do this? You know why did we You know, I mean, it was fun at the time, but you walk out and shit. So what about your time in Christchurch? Um, I. I came. [00:06:00] I came to Christchurch about 1978 I think 78. Yeah, from Dunedin. And I've been living with a guy down there, but I also got involved in the women's refuge down there. Um and that's where I found. That's why I first fell in love with a woman. And we thought we were the only two lesbians in Dunedin. Of course, because we didn't see any others anyway, you know? So that didn't I mean, she was also married with a whole string of little kids. So [00:06:30] it was that didn't sort of go anywhere. So so then I came to Christchurch and I still really hadn't come out because I was still expecting the boyfriend would come after me and he didn't. And and then I sort of had lots of affairs with lots of different people, but and gradually sort of edging myself more towards the women, you know? And that was I remember the women's dances. I remember going to Well, that's where we met was at a woman's dance. Was it because I remember I remember meeting you [00:07:00] Woman's Health Day? Yeah, and it was a woman's, uh, sort of festival. And you were sitting there on the lawn at the, um, in the art centre, Had a big guitar. I think you still had long hair at that stage. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And And she smiled and I thought with a nice smile, and he said, Just remember that we should have been friends ever since, you know, and we would never lovers. But we've always been friends, [00:07:30] and, um, to is a a wonderful dancer and she brings out the dancer and me and we've we've danced together lots, and but that's one of the things I remember. I mean, that's why I thought it was a the dance because I remember as part of that women's festival there was a dance, and I remember being upstairs in the in the old um University common room. And, um, you had a long flowing skirt around and we had this great dance together because [00:08:00] I remember I remember the woman's dances. They were sort of quite sort of smoky and and dark as well. They're always in the in the art centre, somewhere in in a pokey little room, and I'd come to the door and I knew I was involved with the women's refuge at that stage because I come down to the Christchurch one and there were a couple of dikes in that and they said, Oh, you must come to the woman's downstairs So that was that felt safe, that they said, I can go. Well, I got somebody I'll get to the door and I think, Where the hell are they? You know, and I look around and I try and find them because I wouldn't be too scared to go in by myself, [00:08:30] but they'd always come up. But I remember the the pressure on um, like everybody was in shirts and trousers like the pressure on women to not be me because I was fairly. I remember, um, an McGugan. She had a long, long when she came out. She's younger than us. But she had a long, long hair down to her waist that she tied in the Platt and she refused to. She came out. She refused to cut it off. It's not [00:09:00] that she didn't want to cut it off, but she didn't want to be pressured to cut it off. So you had to really fight your way into the lesbian community. It felt to me you really had to want to be there and like we did, it was quite a fighty time. That's not a bad thing. It it cut off in the end. But I liked how she fought to say that yeah, and he had to fight to wear a dress as well. That was a big fight, and there was quite a quite [00:09:30] a anti boy feeling. And the irony was that so many lesbians had boy Children. Do you remember Street like we bought in the eighties late eighties? I think about four of us bought a big, big, big house together, collectively And I think at that point we noticed that all the folk who had Children I think it's only Alison Ason who didn't have boys, you know, like these radical lesbian separatist feminist women who had boys, which is, [00:10:00] um, which was hard for them. Where did that come from? That it was because we were feminist as well as it wasn't just a coming out to a sexual identity. It was a rebellion against the whole patriarchal society. Well, it was very strong, you know, And the radical. I mean, I never was, you know, separatist, radical, separatist, lesbian. But a lot of my [00:10:30] friends and peers were and, um so there was, you know, it was quite a strong political, um, kind of claiming, you know, putting your claim in the sand, sort of, um, about, you know, forming sort of lesbian only community and lesbian nation. There was a series of, um, big women's, uh, gatherings in the seventies. It's about three of them, I think three or four of them, [00:11:00] and gradually the lesbian separatists became a strong and stronger group within that. And it's like it's like any separatism. It's like sort of wanting to really concentrate the ideas and do things completely differently. It's like there's a whole lot of saying like, You know, I'm not a woman, I'm a lesbian. It's a different way of being female. It's like these I am woman giving birth to myself. There's a lot of feeling that we want to do things utterly differently. We want to, um [00:11:30] we don't want to treat the world like men have treated it. So it was It was very much of a like me. I mean, it was very idealistic, you know? I mean, we we, um But we learned a hell of a lot from it, and we wouldn't have, You know? I mean, like, this is years before LGBT community. But, you know, there was lesbians and gay men, and we would [00:12:00] see ourselves as being totally separate to gay men. You know, sort of, um was pretty much a thing until the civil rights to the civil. That's when we first came together. I think so. This was around the the homosexual law reform. And so why was kind of lesbian energy put into something like the homosexual law reform? Do you think there was debate whether we should, because it's like the marriage [00:12:30] thing. It's like Who would want to get married? Marriage is a crap institution, so it's quite a different scene from today, you know? And there was a lot of there was a lot of other, um, a lot of other debates going on. The Maori debate was going on. We fiercely debate that in the lesbian scene there was a lot of debate around environmental stuff, you know, a lot of those. It was hugely fundamentalist. There was a lot of challenging of, You know, you're doing this and [00:13:00] you're doing that and which is good. But a lot of lesbians were in, you know, anti-racism movement. They were you know, they are often, you know, like radical and all, you know, peace, movement, environmental movement, of anti racist movement. So one of the one of the groups I got involved in the eighties was a peace group, a women's peace group. So we're very much doing things just with women, partly because of the the strength it gave you. [00:13:30] I. I know when we bought when we bought that big house together and it was just a woman's house, women's and kids' house and my brother came over from Australia who had seen for quite a few years and with his new girlfriend and sort of wanted to stay there. And I had to say, Well, I'm sorry, you can come and have a cup of tea but you can't stay here And he was horrified and it's like and in some ways it is. It's quite uncivil and some ways for me as a sort of timid, um, a timid woman. It was very good to stand up to my big brother and say, [00:14:00] Actually, no. So a lot of it was to do with strengthening ourselves. I think a lot of it was, um, things that was very useful to do. I think where did that strengthening come from? I mean, where did that kind of groundswell of energy come from? It was it was an exhilarating time. I remember going to the first women's conference when I was a little straight woman, little straight young, 24 year old or something, and it was in Wellington and it was very, very wet and it was in this great big sort of show ground [00:14:30] building, you know, and there was thousands of women there, and they were sitting around having exciting conversations about taboo subjects like like periods and stuff like that. You know, it's like, and and consciousness raising groups like, How is it with you and your boyfriend? Well, I you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. This is how I'm This is how I'm fighting over the house work or I can't you know, I can't get a decent job or whatever. Why? [00:15:00] Why are these guys earning more than me? So there's a lot of speaking bitterness and a lot of excitement, and a lot of let's do it differently. And in some ways it's like when you're when you find you. I think that that that's one of those things. I had a huge yearning, you know, like I had. I find it easy to relate to boys to the men, but I never had such a yearning to be with the women as I had, And so it was [00:15:30] moving more and more and more towards that to try and find that that's what it was. And it's very exciting when you do so. It's like you just want to maximise it, maximise it Yeah, I think. Sorry, I'm going on. But the summer camps were so delicious because they were a whole week, um, in this idyllic spot and everybody was half naked all the time. And it's like there there's a stream and there's there's [00:16:00] all these sort of half naked women or naked women and kids. So just sitting about, you know, it was idyllic, actually. And a great feeling of security and comfort. Yeah, perhaps, um, you know, something that might, you know, help to give you an idea of what it was like is that for three years in a row, I went to the Michigan Women's Music Festival. So 1989 1990 1991. And I worked on the festival for six weeks, setting [00:16:30] up the festival, and it's probably about 100 and 50 women who came on the land to set up the festival. And then at the end of the festival, we take it down again. And the majority of those women were lesbians. And it was my first experience of being in a majority culture, you know, And it was such a strengthening thing to be, um and you know, I mean, there were some straight women there as well. But, you know, we were the majority, and it was such it was such an affirming [00:17:00] thing and such a strengthening thing. So I think that's a bit of an answer to your question. It was about, you know, like in usual society. Well, back then, you know, you you never read anything in the paper about, you know, lesbians or gay men. You know, you never there was There was no mirroring. There was just a complete lack of mirroring, you know, So getting together and finding people who who mirrored you, you know, had some of the same life experiences, you know, And, you know, [00:17:30] um, it's really important. I mean, it's really important for everyone in terms of our identity, you know, not just our sexual identity. It's important for every kid to have mirroring of their life. You know what's what, who they are, so you can form your own identity. And I think I think that's a huge I mean, I think it's, you know, a bit better now, but I think still there's not nearly enough mirroring. But But, you know, at least there are movies sometimes that there's a gay man or a lesbian couple or, you know, there's things on TV. [00:18:00] And But, um, back then there was very little mirroring, and any any media things were usually negative. So, um, I think that strength of being with other lesbians, you know, it just gave you that sense of identity, and it was a very strengthening thing. But I remember how, you know, like, how important it was for me going to Michigan to the music festival and having that experience of being in a majority [00:18:30] culture and, um, you know, yeah, just how different it was. And And I think the summer camps came out of that because two initiators I remember my husband came back from the, um, the green and women's camp, you know, which was anti anti nuclear. Um, sort of sit, sit in protest. It went on for months. Or if not years, in in England. Um, protesting sort of missiles in England, and they came back. That was a very [00:19:00] that was camps, you know, that was actually people were camping. Women, women were camping together, you know, and having a lot of fun. And so we had a few folk well, especially Aspen. I think Alison a couple of but came and they were the ones who sue, who initiated the the women's camp women's camp. They said, Let's do it here and so that that's why we set up women's camps. And I remember feeling when we were organising it, feeling quite anxious about because there had been such a lot of conflict [00:19:30] within the community up to then, you know, we're not conflict, but like a lot of arguing a lot of arguing about what's what's right and what's wrong and blah, blah, blah. And then how the hell are we gonna manage it with all these women all in one place together for a whole week? Oh, my God, what have we done? You know what the beast really unleashed. But in fact, it was lovely because it was We have workshops planned all the time, but it was so laid back I got some beautiful, beautiful photos of of women sitting down in clumps Just [00:20:00] talking, talking, talking, You know, it is lovely and just lazing about Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's Yeah, it it built community. And that's what I felt like is is solidified for me ever since. That's the thing that I've learned where community was built, I think. Yeah, when you hit those gatherings where you had people coming from all over the country, Did you have a sense that, uh, like lesbians were different in Auckland [00:20:30] from Christchurch or Wellington? I mean, were there different kind of energies? Or was it? No, I think we partly swept them off. I remember once somebody gone into the local town to get some milk, some extra milk, and they saw this woman walking along the, you know, hitching a lift. So they stopped, and she was She was a lesbian from Japan. So we took her along with us. You know, it's like there was quite [00:21:00] a hm I didn't I didn't sense there was. And I think probably to the summer camp. There would have been it would have attracted, you know, same type sort of women who had similar values, I suppose, because that's one of the things I learned in the eighties. It was about all the different communities that, um, you know, there's the sporting dikes, and I, you know, didn't know any of them But, you know, they all played softball or cricket or something. And, um but, you know, I remember [00:21:30] going to a party once. I don't know how I got to go there, but and there was a whole group of women I'd never seen before. You know, I thought I knew all the but, you know, Yeah. So, um yeah, so I, I guess in answer to your question was was there much difference with the ones from, say, Auckland or Wellington? I think the ones who would choose to come would probably, you know, be quite similar to they would, you know, they would choose to come because they [00:22:00] had similar values or something. And they were quite travelling. People like, I think a lot of us had. Well, I hadn't much, but my my ex partner has, and they'd travelled all around Europe and England and America, and and they were part of a whole wave of a wash of sort of lesbians. She did that like, especially from Germany. And we often get that's right. And so they'll often be German women at the summer camp. [00:22:30] When you say Antarctic women What What? What do you mean, a house where she, um she's excellent at making friendships. Yeah, she's a great friendship network, centre, centre. And she I don't know how she got to know a lot of the women who went down to Antarctic, so that became a stop off place for all them. And, yeah, there's quite a few dogs they like, um, they go down in October [00:23:00] to Antarctica and work down there for the summer, and then they come back in February, and often they stay around and, you know, in New Zealand for a month or two months. And, um, a significant number of those women who go down to work in Antarctica are lesbian. And so, um, Bronwyn place became the, you know, sort of where the hub where they'd come and, you know, they'd all come and stay. And, um and I'm a tramper and, um, one of my early lovers who's now one of my closest [00:23:30] friends. Um, she was the cousin of Bronwyn. She's Roy's cousin and she was lovers with one of these Antarctic women, and and then I'd meet these Antarctic women. I became lovers with one of them. And then there was just all this intermingling of. Then we go tramping together the whole lot of us. And she did tramping every year. Yeah, yeah, that's right. I remember once at the summer camp, and I wish I'd done it. Now I thought about putting a great big piece of paper out. Everybody put [00:24:00] their names down and then to see the interrelationships, like who slept with who, Whose relationship with whom? And, you know, I'm really interested in that. And, uh, can you talk about relationships and and how, um, how they're so fluid and and so open and, well, I know for me in my thirties, So which is the eighties? It's like, um, you know, I fell in love with a woman, and [00:24:30] as I said, and then that that didn't she was American and that didn't, you know, last very long. Then I fell in love with another woman. She's very good at that. It's her 50th birthday, and people haven't talked about this. So they said, you really just need to say this about Allie and she's had lots of girlfriends, but it was sort of like, um after I kind of I started exploring my sexuality. Um and, um I suppose I had lots of different lovers because, um, it was like [00:25:00] I was doing what I hadn't done fully in my teenage years. It was like I was really, um, playing all that that out. And, um and so I had quite a number of, you know, sort of short term relationships, and and some I don't know, you know, they might last for three months and then something like that and some of those people I'm still friends with and some I'm not, you know, I don't know how that works. You know, just, [00:25:30] um, with with with some of my ex lovers, we've been able to navigate the transition from being lovers to being really good friends and, um, yeah, yeah. And I remember when when I first came out like and I was involved with the women's peace group. And then there was a group of us. Um, I became part of a group that bought some land on on on banks to make a woman's settlement [00:26:00] there farm. But I remember that group. I remember looking back, there was a period when I was had a crush on every single one of them and I really did. And and it's like, Yeah, it's like you saying I replaying stuff because I think before that I I'd not like women much. I felt much more comfortable with men. And I think I if I had an identity, it would be as a sort of some sort of gay man, [00:26:30] you know? But I, I never really took them seriously. The men, they, they they were good mates that I had to sleep with, you know? And then when I got found women, it's like there was a whole process I went through around that time of which is quite AAA life changing process anyway, which was to do with being more accepting of myself or more loving in myself or more loving of of my mother and reconciled with family stuff, [00:27:00] and that went together with loving other women. And it's like each of these women have an aspect I was loving and I was taken into myself or becoming aware of in myself and and accepting it. I remember one of them, for instance, being quite slow and heavy and sort of bovine, and I started really appreciating that in a way that I would have just dismissed because very heady head trip before that. So I was going [00:27:30] through quite a process. And that's where the dancing started, you know, getting much more into your body into my body. And so it was quite a I don't know if you ever seen Michael Palmer's stuff. I remember seeing his. We went to see his his life, history, work that he did. And it was very much like dancing and coming out and coming into yourself. And it was all wrapped together. You know, I, I really could identify with that. So for [00:28:00] me, that's what that was. Yeah. So it's quite a profound thing, actually. It's a very interesting comment you made about not liking women very much. Yeah, I didn't I I Where did that come from? Oh, I think because I'd come from a family where my mom was a bit of a doormat and I was a Tim and little doormat, you know? And I was starting to be less of a doormat. Yeah, I was going through quite a change in my whole emotional self where [00:28:30] I was taking on more responsibility at work and, yeah, like, remake I was remaking myself. And that wasn't just that was from that was using all sorts of things, like psycho drama and I don't know all sorts of things. The things, Yeah, yeah. And it was. What I I'll say about that is is I. I don't think I actively, you know, disliked women, but I, um I sort of thought of myself as one of the boys. [00:29:00] You know, I've always been a tomboy, you know, And I was living when I lived at Mount Cook. I was working for the national park, working as a mountaineer general, and there was two women on the staff of 30 or something and, you know, and I've always been strong and sort of able to do so called boy type things. So, you know, I, I thought of myself as one of the boys, and, um, and even though I had a boyfriend, you know, and we lived together for quite a number of years, um, he was like, my best mate, [00:29:30] But it wasn't. And then I would have affairs with other men that I'd, you know, have a sort of lustful connection with. So it was sort of like you know, with my boyfriend here, who is my best mate and these other men that I feel attracted to. But it wasn't together. And it was when I met my first woman. I fell love with Sue. It was like these things came together, you know? It was for me. It was sort of like the two came together. You know, I really liked her and respected her and [00:30:00] thought she was fantastic. And I felt the sexual passion. And so, um yeah, yeah. What is that? First life like? I mean, I mean, one of the things that's really, really strong for me is the first time I kissed Sue. And, um, it was like, um I'm sorry, you're you're a man. [00:30:30] But, you know, instead of this great big mouth with whiskers all around, there was this just this softness and her skin was so soft. I just remember, you know, like it's still it's one of those just absolute sort of, um, special moments of my life. Really? The first time I kissed, you know, my first woman lover. Something, um I don't know. It was it was a feeling of, like, coming home or something. Just felt completely right. Didn't feel odd at all. [00:31:00] Felt right. And I and I think it's different for me because I remember the first time I was in love with a woman and we didn't do that much. It was in I still with my boyfriend. And one thing that struck me was how she could read my mind all the time. And I realised she was just doing what I would do with the guy. You know, I sort of watch him and see what was what was going on and somebody doing this to me like it was like it was like, Oh, shit. [00:31:30] But I, I think I didn't. Yeah, II. I searched around, actually among the women to find what I was looking for. And I think it was only when I got with Morgan, you know that that I've found it. And that was like it was because I remember when we first went to bed together, and it was like, um, it was our electricity. It was to do with the touching the centre of the universe, you [00:32:00] know, touching the the, um, energy that's inside everything. We we just couldn't keep our hands off each other, and I think she was. She was just very Butch Dyke, and I think I've I've been very attracted to Butch Dykes more than ones, and it took a long time for me realised what I was looking for was somebody who sort of, you know, structure in the world is with the power of a guy. [00:32:30] But you take her home and you get the clothes off and she's this gorgeous woman, you know, it's like she just she just, um she's in a different shape and you can make love to her, you know? So that's that's that was my experience. It's just different because I'm more than you, too. What about language? Because you you were using words like Dyke and Butch. And what kind of was that? The kind of language that was being used in the eighties was, But [00:33:00] is it more, um, problematic? I think it was, and there was quite a there was a whole controversy around taking on those roles because they're just playing out the old heterosexual roles. That's what it felt like. Yeah, but actually, I don't know, I felt I know I. I never feed up [00:33:30] until I was with a woman, you see? And then we would really we really sort of get into it. And she would have pig with a suit on. We got all these balls. We did some wonderful dancing together because she's a natural dancer, right? And she'd be in a tuxedo and you'd be in your Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Like like Ginger Rogers, you know, with high heels and and very tight dress. And it was gorgeous. I loved it. I loved it. Yeah, because I never did that with the guys at all. I don't particularly want to, you know, because [00:34:00] I think I think in the very close days of the fifties and sixties, the Butch Fe thing was quite strong. And then with the feminism in certain circles, it was sort of like what to said about, um, not wanting to, um, ape those heterosexual roles rather than seeing that it's actually, you know, part of lesbian culture. So yeah, you know, because there was a difference, there was, Yeah, there were certain phases in the lesbian world [00:34:30] and there was those I remember going to a an evening one where there were a lot of women who weren't actually closeted, but they weren't sort of on the street sort of protest. He sort of dikes like us, you know, they were quite, um they they they sort of stayed at home and they were quiet and they were more role play, and they're also much more closed down. So that was one [00:35:00] scene and the and the whole Butchie F, the old traditional Butchie film thing. I mean, there was good reason to rebel against it because it's like, um, some of those women did behave like guys in this in the bad sense. You know, they they did boss people around, you know? So there's a lot of conflict around that, too around what is masculinity, What is feminine? What is Butch and fem, You know, what is, um I remember at a a lesbian conference that was that we had at, um in Wellington [00:35:30] in the early nineties that me and went to and I remember 80 dikes in a room debating the question of whether you should What's the pros and cons of allowing somebody who's transgender to come to the Women's Centre or somewhere like that to a lesbian only gathering and like, it was amazing because this whole group of 80 women were thrashing out the pros and cons of each of it [00:36:00] and and some one woman saying, Look, I'm taking testosterone at the moment. What am I you know? And then some young ones And we were about in our forties fifties by then. But there's some young ones twenties there saying, No, we want lesbian only space. We want woman born of women's space because we have nowhere else. You know, there was all these different, and we came away from it because at that stage we weren't at each other's throats so much. We got a bit more sophistication by then. Well, that's great. I mean, that's [00:36:30] still a big issue. It is, um, the Michigan Women's Music Festival. Um, you know, the the policy is is to have, um, the only women born women, um, come to the festival. Um, you know, So it is completely women born women space. Yeah. Yeah. So that's still, you know, an issue in the in the wider lesbian community. What is the difference between, um a group [00:37:00] of 80 women discussing something and a mixed group or a group of men. Are there different energies going on there? It probably would be. It's also a difference in time. I mean, I might have a different response now, you know, it's like we it was of that time partly and the the because I I've become aware that our our his like mine and all our history is different from the history of women. Say who's 20 [00:37:30] now and growing up or who's, you know, the this cohorts of us that have gone through a certain experience. Yeah, so and society's changed. So how people see gays and lesbians has changed a lot. I mean, I was handing out stickers at at the Guy forks for the Green Party thing, and we've got ones that say I only date girls or only date boys. I date people who vote green. So I was heading out to these These Yeah, you want some stickers for these 14 year olds and and this this drop, a little [00:38:00] 14 year old said, I'll take the girls one. You know, it's like it wasn't an issue. It wasn't a major issue. It's like, Wow, that's so nice And I have no idea whether she's what you know, this or that or the other. And it probably doesn't matter. You know, it's like she's stroppy and she's, um, in control of herself and in charge of herself. And, yeah, it's nice. So it's quite a different scene now, but your question about in a group of, you know, sort of 80 women or 80 lesbians discussing something, and [00:38:30] how would it be different to a group of, you know, mixed men and women discussing something, I mean. And maybe back then I mean back. Back then, part of the perception would be that would that men would dominate more or they wouldn't listen so much, you know, and women wouldn't you know. So that's part of the thing of doing women only things, Um, and one reason for doing dyke only things as opposed to mixed women things. [00:39:00] We had debates about that as well, you know, debates about everything. Is that we when when heterosexual women were talking, it's like they got a guy in their head already, But still, it's like they're thinking all the time, about what would the what My boyfriend think that he's saying this and that's who they refer you. You can actually tell that that's who they're referring to. That's who they're talking to. Partly, he's standing next next to you and they're talking to you. So it's like they're not fully there. And that was one that was one craving [00:39:30] that we had to be around. Lesbian only spaces is to be around from, Is we is to see what it's like to do it differently to get the man out of your head. You know? What would we do if we had didn't have the man in our head? The man? Yeah, I haven't. She'd been so wrapped in her own community. I haven't even thought about how it might be for gay men, transgender people in terms of those sorts of things. But it's interesting. [00:40:00] It's interesting. When it came together for the the homosexual law reform, how was that in the in the Canterbury region? First time I'd ever done any working or I didn't do much. I just went along. I didn't I didn't, you know, go to any of the the meeting, you know, like the kind of planning meetings. But I'd go along to all the protests and things so um, and a lot of yeah, a lot of lesbians who, you know, were pretty radical separatist lesbians. Um, [00:40:30] were would, you know, were really willing to put their energy into fighting for this. I think it was sort of like seeing what the guys need because they were the criminalised group. So it was like working with the boys. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe it was like, Well, you know, if you know, even though it's not criminal for women to be sexual with other women, um, it could very easily be, you know, [00:41:00] um, and I had I'd started to have more contact with gay men because when I was in my partner, Morgan, she was living down in South Canterbury and because it's such a tiny place down there, she she and the gay guys down there, we got together and there's a South Canterbury gay and lesbian group, so I'd meet gay guys there, and that was that was fascinating because, like, we'd have parties and evenings and I'd never been around men joking about sex before, and it's like they have these [00:41:30] really rude jokes about sex. They're totally non offensive, you know, It was so nice. Yeah, that was That was, I suppose what shifted for me in that sense? Yeah. So how out could you be in the mid eighties in the Canterbury region? In terms of like, I mean, could you walk down the street holding hands? Could I mean, were you discriminated against in any way? I don't I don't think so. [00:42:00] Occasionally, if you wore your hair too short, you would get mistaken for a boy. You know, if you were like, sort of 40 year old woman, it can be quite interesting. But, I mean, it wasn't a major thing like in in the early nineties. I. I bought a small holding with my partner and went to live out in the country and a slightly different slightly later, but And when we were looking for it, um, I never [00:42:30] came across bridges from, say, the real estate agents. What you What we need to do, though, is to say, my partner and I she blah, blah, blah, blah. So they didn't put their foot in it and say, your husband before they had, you know, it's like they didn't want to be you. You tried to avoid those sort of things, but nobody was offensive in that sense. I remember the the hay contractor. He'd come and and cut the hay several times. And he still sent the bill to Mr [00:43:00] Mr SI. Think he was talking to somewhere, you know, he'd come in for lots of cups of tea. What else is his wife doing it? But I, I didn't experience any prejudice at all, Actually, in that sense, it it's more. What was interesting at work is, though, they'd be very accepting on me having a female partner. But what they would find alien was that I was part of a community. [00:43:30] They'd have no idea that I was part of a community. And that made a difference to how I saw things. Yeah, and I didn't think to them. I mean, and that's interesting, because I just yesterday and the day before I went to my school reunion. 50 years on, um, so 50 years on from when we were in the third form and, um, they are just about I don't know how many women were there. This is You know, all of all of that class is about 100 I suppose, And most of them have got, [00:44:00] you know, husbands, partners and Children and, you know, three or four haven't. I didn't spot any other dykes, dear, but, um, yeah, um, you know, like someone um said about or asked me something about, you know, my partner and said he and I said, you know, so you know, this sort of that assumption. Still, Um, um, [00:44:30] but but something else. One place where, um I've been very involved in psycho drama. And, um and I started in the mid eighties doing psychodrama, and I started going to psychodrama workshops. Um, And I remember at one point, um, on a a mixed psychodrama workshop, me saying something about being a lesbian and this other person who was in a training capacity, [00:45:00] Um said, Oh, why do you have to use a label like that? You know, and and, um, sort of did my best to kind of say, Well, it's important to me. This is my identity. But one of the things that was really important for us in the eighties was, um, uh, a psycho dramatist in Wellington, Kay Rosal came down and ran lesbian only psychodrama, and that again was a really strengthening thing [00:45:30] for me, so we'd have lesbian only psychodrama and do a lot of experiential psycho drama. And then I could go to training workshops which were mixed and, um, sort of feel supported by my sort of lesbian psychodrama community. And Kay and her partner, Anna, had had done a lot of work workshops with, um, you know, the the sort of the main trainers from Australia and New Zealand. And, um, and it really sort of forged the way [00:46:00] for, um, lesbians and psycho drama. And so, in the psycho drama community, there's actually a really high percentage of lesbians, you know, I go to a psycho drama workshop and there's, you know, at least a third, usually in every workshop. Just pretty amazing, really. And and, you know, few gay men, but not many gay men. But so, um, I think it was a really great thing to have, and that that was the strength of having lesbian only things [00:46:30] happening, which for me gave me that strength to go into the straight community. And, um, yeah, can you just describe what psycho drama is? Um, well, it's a drama of the psyche. The theatre of our internal world. And it's a method whereby we do things, um, in action and experientially and, um, choose people or objects to [00:47:00] represent different aspects of your inner world. And it's used in therapeutic in a therapeutic way, and it's also used in organisational development. Or it's used in education as well. But it's it's a, um instead of just talking about stuff, um, you know, like all the things I've been talking about, I could, you know, set things out, you know? So it's a visual method as well, you know, And it's an experiential method. And because of that way of working [00:47:30] it, um, assist people to get much more conscious of some of the things you know that are more that are more unconscious, I guess, because we, um And the whole purpose of it is to to develop, um, new roles that are more adequate to the situation you're in and, um, develop your spontaneity and creativity. Life. I'd have to demonstrate. Excuse [00:48:00] me. Well, here's a big question. I'm just wondering, do you think it's easier now for somebody coming out? Uh, I mean, in your kind of counselling role. Do you think it's easier for somebody to come out now or than than, say, 2030 years ago. I think theoretic letters. But I think, um, each person, you know, I think like, I'm just thinking about a client I saw last year who was coming out, and she was really struggling with [00:48:30] it, you know, and, you know, struggling to find other lesbians. And I, you know, I gave her some clues about places to go. Go and, um and she was really scared of her, you know, family and friends judging her. So I think that yeah. So I think it probably depends on the person. It depends on the community and what your family is like. You know, [00:49:00] I don't know anymore. Yeah, So, theoretically, I think it should be easier because, you know, it's there's a lot more mirroring in the media and, you know, you know, it's not such a big thing. There's lots of celebrities who are gay, you know, sort of, um but I think individually people still struggle with it, and yeah, and there's [00:49:30] not many images of butch women, actually, you know, like when you think of the television, the lesbians on television, they're all pretty and lipstick, lipstick, lesbians, you know. So for a butch young butch coming out, there's not much. There's not much if you, you know, if you don't look a bit finny, why do you think it is? I think it's still taboo. I think it's the idea of women not looking pretty not looking. You [00:50:00] know, looking strong and masculine is not OK threatening. Yeah, it's Yeah, a lot of a lot of straight guys still are challenged by the idea that a woman might be, but they're not bothered by finny ones. They're bothered by the others. Yeah, and it's like it's almost like a it's It's like a challenge. They want to attack, you know? And I think it's probably the same, you [00:50:30] know, like for gay men, you know, if they're particularly, you know, feminine, particularly kids. You know, I think they you know, it's a bit easier, but, you know, But I think you know, um, you know, if a gay man is, you know, not particularly sort of camp in their way of dressing and their way of being, they'll be more accepted, you know, as long as you can, because it's that fear of difference, you know, and, [00:51:00] um hm. And it's sort of like in some ways, easier and harder, because it's like there's so much more overt acceptance in one level. But there's also like when we came out, we came. Like I said, we fought our way into a community, and once you're in there, you're in there, you know and you. So there's more validating of you. Whereas there's nowhere for those young folk to fight their way into, there's no fences to cross anymore. [00:51:30] So where do they go? So it isn't more groping around, and you're lucky if you find yeah, and it probably is easier in some ways. And I don't really know that many young lesbians, I suppose, how big a part of your life is lesbianism? Yeah, it's It's I'm not so involved in so many cutie things as [00:52:00] I was, because it doesn't feel like as much of a community there, not the dancers or the socialising so much. And I'm I'm more involved in things like the Green Party and stuff like that, and the dancing is, um, and playback. We were both involved in Playback Theatre, and that was mixed so over the years, I've gotten more involved in mixed things. But it feels like it's when I think about, um it's like this thing about housing, [00:52:30] you know, And I I got a house that might be flood prone now, so I think I might lose half my equity in it. You know, possibly in the future where it just felt like, um, build my house, I'd be in the rest of my life sort of thing. But then I thought, Well, if if that happens, I could buy a, um uh, a camper van and or a, uh a house truck and I would go and park [00:53:00] up and I could when I thought about the people I park up with my dike friends from way back, you see, and we've taught in the past an old home. But some places, like a bunch of old dikes, you know, and you know, is probably another one, isn't it? And and it feels like and it's because of these links, which are from where, in the past we might not even have that much contact. But it feels they're still [00:53:30] strong enough to be able to say, Can I come and live here for six months. Can I come and live with you? Full stop. Like I have a friend on the West Coast. I have a friend on the West Coast where I went to work over there about six years ago and the one of the, um, one of the clinical managers and where I was working was a woman I hadn't seen since she was about 19. And she's a professionally trained And I didn't even recognise her until she came and said, [00:54:00] Would you like to, you know, come and have tea with us and and so on, maybe stay the night. I thought, that's a bit sort of forward, you know? And then I recognised this young woman who was 19, who was in the peace group together. And so I got really close with her and her partner. So after all these years, they they feel like family because I was staying with them while I was over on the coast, commuting with it back and forth. And so her partner, I. I feel quite strongly, um, linked to even though, and it's partly because of that long, [00:54:30] long standing connection. So she's somebody I could go and stay with. So in some ways it's there. In some ways, it's attenuated, you know? It's it's funny. Yeah, you know, and I'm the same. I'm not so involved in, in, you know, lesbian activities. Um, um, but, you know, my partner lives in Wellington and I go up there, she comes down here and, um, [00:55:00] I know it's it's sort of a core of me, but I'm involved in, like, my main, you know, community now is my psycho drama community, you know, And, um um, yeah, it comes at sometimes it comes out in things like funerals. I remember we go to a funeral, maybe Noreen's funeral, and that was an old older dyke. And she she was very strong in the women's spirituality movement. [00:55:30] So she had really clear instructions about what she did at her funeral. And she got the woman's the woman's mysteries group to come and do it for her, you know, which is sort of mixed heterosexual type group, but they're very good at what they do, and they head in this big hall, and it felt like a really lovely celebration of a lesbian life, and I think that's important for all of us. You know that we do these ceremonies really well. So those things, I suppose, as we get older, it's a death [00:56:00] more else now that come up with some marriages, I guess. But mostly it's death, I guess, funerals. But it's like really important that they're done well. And that's an affirming. And hopefully that would be something for young people you mentioned just before about your house and and it's possibly prone to flooding now. Was that because of the the the Earthquakes? How was it for you guys for the the Earthquakes in 2010 and 2011? [00:56:30] Um, II I was my house didn't get much damage at all. It's just a little tiny cottage. It sort of bounces up and down on the on the sand dunes, you know, and it was just an amazing experience to live through, basically, and I and I was on the coast at the time on the West Coast, and I live with my brother, my older brother, who's come to live with me. So it was a matter of making sure he was safe. I know in our street we've got a couple of dikes [00:57:00] at the end of our street who became like camp mother of, you know, of the of the street. You know, they really did, because they're very, very community focused. So and there's also Matt, who's a gay guy who's down the bottom street now. So it feels like there's a strong gay and lesbian community around there. Yeah, but yeah, I mean, I, I wasn't very badly affected. I was lucky not to be badly affected in any sort of way. Really, apart from this, [00:57:30] you know, And and so in some ways, I could appreciate the earthquakes for the positive stuff, which is, um, there's a whole lot of stuff. I mean, it's the I feel so much closer to the earth, Quite literally. You know, like you. You feel it moving around. You notice how it changes I. I walk around with the dogs a lot, and I just see how everything is shifting and changing. And you can literally feel it sometimes if it sort of comes while you're walking around. And, um, I've never felt frightened [00:58:00] in my house. And the other thing is the difference in, um the in how people are, they're much less. A lot of people talk about being less material, less interesting, material things we have. We have garage sales for the Green Party. We we make make hundreds, hundreds and hundreds of dollars in garage sales because people just giving stuff away and they come back and sort of around it and get other stuff. And then they put it. They're much more casual [00:58:30] about stuff, I think now and yeah, so that's that sense and the sense of the I'm in New Brighton, which has been quite a knocked around community. So there's also, I think now, a feeling of weariness and cynicism and despair in the community, I think, and that's that's starting to take hold now. And I'm starting to experience that because I think people are feeling the same way I am, which is this whole area [00:59:00] is under threat of flooding and desolation, basically, and that's in the next 10 30 years. Probably who knows what will happen to it might have underwater completely. Yeah, and I live in Littleton and I was here for the September quake. But for the February 1 I was actually camping up in, um so I wasn't here for that. But, um, Littleton, um, sort of [00:59:30] did an amazing sort of thing in terms of community getting, um, looking after each other like I'm a member of the time bank there. And the time bank coordinator at that time organised basically did the civil defence stuff and then organised, You know, people to check on old people and or just organised everything and and I I found out, You know, once I could get back to being able to email, I stayed away for an extra week because they said, don't come back because, you know, it's not with with it, but, [01:00:00] um, I found somebody who I could They they helped me find someone who would go and feed my cat and feed my chooks and, um, you know, sort of check up on things, and, um And when I came back, there was there was, um, a whole lot of community involvement things, and I got a bit involved in some of those things, like, you know, making hearts, sitting down on the street corner and sewing hearts for people. Um, you know, and you know, they'd [01:00:30] come along and you get them involved in making a heart, and then you have a bit of a chat about how their house was and all that. But personally, I was I mean, I live in a little wooden cottage, and it just built on rock, and it just flexes with the earthquake. And so, um, you know, I've been very lucky. I've got some very minor cosmetic damage that maybe they'll fix in 2016 or something, but who knows? But, um, [01:01:00] and that community feel in Littleton is still very strongly there together. I think you I think you I found that in the Brighton area, too. I, like the pharmacist had to give up because his shop got damaged and they had a huge, great farewell for him, you know, and things like that. It it's, uh, you Do you feel the strength of the community? So there's been some quite magical things. I remember going to a performance of Macbeth [01:01:30] in Littleton, and it's in the main. They on the main street. They had it in a, you know, one of the broken down. And now it was just no, because that was demolished. And it was so they play it outside. They had the the audience under a sort of thing and had great big braziers to keep people warm. And the actor playing out in this sort of demolition area is amazing, rising up from pools of mud [01:02:00] and things like that. Just just so a lot of interesting things have happened, and I mean generally, in Christchurch, a lot of you know, really creative things have happened, like the gap filler and the green rubbles, things that you know. They've organised the pellet pavilion where they have concerts and the, you know, markets and things. And they they have, you know, a dance I met where you can go and take your own music and plug it in and dance. And there's all sorts of, you know, great [01:02:30] initiatives to kind of Yeah, keep having some life in the in the city, and and some of those gap full of things have happened in Littleton as well. So we've got a a sort of a, um a square area that is actually going now going to be in the, you know, in the plan is will be our sort of central square, but, you know, way before you know, council or anyone got to thinking even thinking about it. Gap filler [01:03:00] was creating, you know, seating places and a little garden and a little stage area and just, um, in a court. And that's a real gathering place. People, you know, go down there and sit there and chat. We were your pets, OK? Yeah, I got a lot of free food, actually, because people in Auckland are donated food, and yeah, yeah, because it was a huge thing, wasn't it? Where? Where people couldn't get back to their their [01:03:30] pets. And as I was on the coast, I was there till about Saturday after that Tuesday, one in February. And it was because my and my brothers partly had to stay there for the work. And partly my brother said, You can't get back into New Brighton anyway, so you may as well stay there. But it was It's an awful feeling of not being at home, so wanting to be home. Everybody sort of wanting to hang out together, you know? And [01:04:00] I wanted like, Oh, I've got a couple of dogs and they they sleep in the bedroom now because they all we all clump together. Yeah, but But there were some magical times because I I lived near the history. And when the power went off for, like, two weeks, I mean, the power went off just recently because a swan, um, flew into the temporary over overhead power lines. But so it went out again, and I walked down the end of the road in the dark, you know, and looked out over [01:04:30] the city, you know, to the darkness. And it's magical, actually. And that was magical in the, um, in the earthquake times, you know, like a whole week or two of no power is like it really puts you right down to the local. There's no Internet. There's no this phone, but there's nothing there. There's news on the radio transistor radio, but there's there's nothing else. So you you're very local, very, very, very local. And I love the feeling of everything. [01:05:00] The whole great machine having ground to a halt, you know? So how do you see? Uh, I mean, throughout our our chat you you've, um you've got such a positive way of of looking at it. Maybe quite, um, hard circumstances. How? How Where does that come from? How do you How do you? For instance, if you've lost power for two weeks, how do you see the positive in terms of that's That's [01:05:30] a beautiful view. Um, but But where Where does that come from? Oh, I think it's partly because I didn't have any of the horrors that a lot of people had. I didn't walk outside to. Suddenly there's nothing there or I didn't have, like, my friends on a concrete pad that that broke and they could hear it hollow underneath. It's like there's nothing horrible like that happened to me at all. So that gives me. And that was meant to be positive. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Well, [01:06:00] me, me the same, You know, like, because I haven't experienced, um, you know, really awful things happening. You know, I can be positive, but I know you know of people who have, you know, lost their house or, you know, um, you know a friend who had just liquefaction sort of this fire through right through her house. Um, and who's who's still waiting? The insurance company, um, originally [01:06:30] said it was a rebuild and now saying it's a repair and it's like, you know, how can you repair this? You know, this is a madness, Really? So you know, she's got a battle ahead, but, you know, that probably won't be sorted for another year or two, you know? So, um, I don't know, you know, And and then, of course, you know, I've got, you know, a friend who lost someone in the C TV building. And, um um, and and a couple of people I know, um, [01:07:00] who were in the C TV building on the sixth floor and, you know, collapsed pancaked down, and then they walked out. But you know that that, you know, like I was with over the over last weekend and something happened, you know? And you can see she's still got that. You know, um, sort of hyper alert response to to things. So I mean, I think it's easy. It's easy for me because I haven't experienced [01:07:30] anything, you know, really hard. And my house is fine, you know, it's livable. You know, there's a few cracks here and there, and but, you know, it's, um and the other thing people say is like like we all through that year we were aware, like we kept thinking about the people in the C TV building and the horror of it, you know, it just was really I, I think especially that you know, where there were people trapped and and died after a while. [01:08:00] It was just so horrifying. And like just about everybody would say, Well, I haven't had it as bad as some because they're the people we're thinking about. You know, every time you I think it's it's like my God, what a horror! And and it's interesting how the the newspaper like it was like in a war. They didn't talk about that for about till about a year afterwards. And then they did the you know, the the picture of all the young students of that that class, that English language class that got killed and [01:08:30] the the the tragedy of that man talking to his wife, you know, until she died. And this and this and this story, like all the individual stories. But the paper was so good in not actually putting those in till at least a year afterwards, when we could hear that. Hear it, you know. So a lot of the time. We didn't even know it was as bad as it was until quite a bit later. And that was really good, I think. And in the meantime, we [01:09:00] we got so active around, um, setting up compost toilets. I mean the number of workshops on compost toilets. Suddenly the whole world went green. You know, it's like they want to know about compost toilets. Finally, Finally, the world is listening to us. You know, they need to know why you need to visit in your garden, you know, blah, blah, blah. So a lot of that stuff has suddenly become material for people, you know. And and there's a lot of pleasure in, [01:09:30] um, being practical about stuff. Yeah, so that's where some of the positivity is. It's a very mixed bag, actually. Yeah, looking towards the future, you were saying that that possibly the equity in the in the in your home might have reduced. What does that mean? In terms of ageing and in terms of things like retirement and and and looking after yourself in in later life, it's well, it undercuts [01:10:00] what you know. That's I mean, that's the main. That's the main, um harm that I've had from the quake, I think is is the loss of that certainty or or security? I think and it. But it's like it's it's something that's happening for a whole lot of people. Like I got friends in this exactly the same position who don't even know if they're going to get a rebuild or repair and they probably have to. I've got a couple of friends like that, [01:10:30] at least, and they also might have to sell up and they might have to go and live somewhere where they can afford to live. So it's, um it makes me think about the fragility of everyday life in some ways. But it's interesting because I I'm I'm thinking a lot about climate change and and that sort of stuff, And so in some ways [01:11:00] it's It's like it's it's part of This has happened already now and we've come through. We know what it's like to build a compost toilet. We know where to get our water from. We know we can rely on the people down the road. People put their taps from their wells out on the street, so you gather and get water So we've tried it out and it works like it's not the end of the world. So it's like in some ways, um, in some ways it feels like we're living in a slightly different world, [01:11:30] and it it just makes me so interested to think what will happen in the future as the possible. I think likely the climate catastrophes will start happening and we'll get climate refugees, and a lot of things will get a lot more difficult. And I feel both closer to that and more able to maybe cope with it or having more feeling of, Well, I have to let go and trust that someone will look after me if I'm old and [01:12:00] you know I don't feel I can do my own little arc and sail away somewhere. There's no way to sail. And the arcs got now got Tim holding. You know, I. I, um, worry a bit about getting older and, um, my partner and I Ronnie, we talk about, you know, sort of retiring together, but she's not going to retire for quite a few years. She's works for the Ministry of Health, and, um, she'll be there for a while. yet. If she, you know, I can imagine, [01:12:30] Um yeah, so I sometimes wake up in the middle of the night and think, What am I gonna do when I'm old? When I'm feeling, you know, in the middle of the night, I wake up and everything's achy and I I know because my my property is quite hard to manage because it's on a quite a a hill on a valley and, you know, it's sort of, um there's quite a lot of work involved, and I don't manage to do hardly any of it. So, um, yeah, I sort of, you know, sometimes [01:13:00] worry about getting older and and, you know, think about, um, you know that I'd like to live communally live, you know, but haven't done anything to organise anything like that. Like I know in in Auckland, there's, uh, the elder village, you know, there's a group involved, and I think, a friend of ours who's just moved to Wellington recently from Auckland. I think she's involved in that, um and I mean, I think they could quite actively, you know, organising something [01:13:30] for their retirement. But I haven't done anything to do it and I think I should. But I haven't, you know, kind of got myself organised to do anything about it or Yeah. Yeah. So I have this. I have this kind of, um, fantasy about how I'd like to live community. And I have lived community before. Before I was came out as a lesbian, I lived in a community, um, a mixed community on the outskirts of Christchurch and really enjoyed that time that [01:14:00] thing of sharing resources, sharing things. And now I live on my own, and I think, how has this hand come about? So, um yeah, but, um, as I say, I haven't, you know, like so you know, there's a fantasy about I'd like to live like that, but I haven't kind of got I haven't got the the bridge yet And whether I will ever get that bridge, I don't know. So it's an unknown [01:14:30] for me, I suppose, you know, and at times in the middle of the night, a bit of fear around it. I, I think one thing I've found is I've gotten much more tolerant of who I live with than I used to be. You know, it used to be very much like I'm not gonna do this. I'm not gonna do this. I'm gonna I'm gonna do this. And you know, I'm not really bound in by anybody. Whereas I got I. I guess as you get older, it's lovely because you get more sure of yourself and you don't. And I guess that whole definition [01:15:00] of being a diet where it's so important to sort of shut my door to, you know, shut my house to my brother. And here he is, living with me Now. You know, it's like it doesn't matter. It's It's fine. It's I know who I am, you know? Nobody can shake that. So it's I. I like the idea of living with other people. And I would if he wasn't there, I'd be living with someone else there as well. So but But II, I juggle around like my eyesight's deteriorating and I need to be in a city. But I think [01:15:30] Christchurch might well be underwater in 20 years time, you know? So it's like but I if I go out to the country now, I can't. Well, in a couple of years, I won't be able to drive in and out. So and then that's when the house bus seemed like a really good idea. Even if I can't drive it myself, I get someone else to drive it for me. Yeah. So do you think there are different issues with ageing? [01:16:00] Uh, you know, uh, a straight person to, uh, a lesbian or or rainbow person? I. I think I think there's a cohort thing because I'm not sure how it is for or how it would be for a young person lesbian. Now, you know, another 40 years time. I don't I think I've I feel like I have, as I say, I have this, like com Sorry community, um, [01:16:30] sort of sense of community that is built up from people. I've known all that time, which gives me a feeling of security. Maybe which may be straight folk. I don't see them sometimes in that community, but sometimes I see them having that, like, say, if they are the green movement or some Christian movement or some other similar type of movement where they've done intense good things with each other. Yeah, so it really depends on [01:17:00] where people are coming from, I think. Well, I don't I don't have any family. I don't have any biological. Well, I have one brother who I'm sort of, you know, we've got quite a distant relationship. Is, um I see straight people that they have that sort of family backing, But then, like, tour. Um, I know I have my you know, my lesbian community. You know, my friends who [01:17:30] are my family. So, um, so I would trust that. You know, like, you know, when I die that they would, um, make sure that I had a really good funeral that represented me. Um, yeah, the other thing, this is the last thing I The other thing I've noticed is as I get older, like I'm 63 now, and I really [01:18:00] identify with older people I've really actually enjoyed. I think it's mostly in the green room, but other places as well. I've gotten to know men in their seventies and I. I experience men now as like being like, you know, like oak trees and protective. And in a way, I never used to when I was young and it's lovely, it's a lovely feeling and they're ones are their guys. I respect and strong and I'm really aware [01:18:30] of older people, especially ones older than me. So 75 and so on having that experience and that, um, and that wealth of knowledge. And also as I get older, it's like I feel like I like the whole world belongs to me or I'm part of the whole world. So it's like there's no there's no estrangement. There's less and less estrangement for like with the earthquake, it's like it's [01:19:00] it's, uh it, you know, is an identification with it. To some extent, you know, it's it's a real It's a surprising feeling, because I didn't imagine you'd feel if they don't tell you these things do as you get older. It's like to get older, But there's a whole other stuff that they didn't sort of. You know, that seems to happen, which is, um, which is really good. Yeah, [01:19:30] it's a feeling like I start to identify much, much more with the earth and in some ways that makes it harder, because because of the trouble that the Earth is in. But it's like there's there's nowhere to die from, you know, as it were, it's like it's, um yeah, there's no feeling of strange for anything. And I'm I'm I'm having, you know, a different experience to to because I'm [01:20:00] noticing. Um you know, um, the things that I can't do, you know, physically, you know, And, um And I think I think because I had ME chronic fatigue syndrome for, you know, I sort of had that was diagnosed with that in 1935 when I was 35. Um, and so for about probably about 10 years, I was, um after being [01:20:30] very physically active and very physically fit, um, I had a very period of, you know, very low energy. In the last few years, my energy has come back again. But now and I feel like I've been a bit cheated of my life because, you know, I, I spent quite a lot of time not having the energy to do the things other you know 40 year olds and 45 year olds are doing. And now here I am, at 64 and, [01:21:00] um, I still have these, um, ideas. I have many creative ideas and many projects, but I just can't do them, you know? And and I think there's quite a bit of disappointment or, um yeah, some grief grief there about, um yeah and I. I feel at the moment I'm I am in a bit of a limbo place because I'm not quite sure. You know, I know that the life I'm living at the moment [01:21:30] isn't sustainable for me, but I'm not quite sure where to next. So, you know, I'm in a bit of a limbo place. Yeah. Yeah, was it?

IRN: 741
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/remembering_carmen.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004281
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089575
TITLE: Remembering Carmen Rupe
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Amanduh la Whore; Buckwheat; Dana de Milo; Francis Rupe; Jurgen Hoffman; Karen Te Wao; Pasi Daniels; Pindi Hurring; Robin Waerea; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 2010s; Amanduh la Whore; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Buckwheat; Carmen Rupe; Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Celia Wade-Brown; Chrissy Witoko; Christianity; Dana de Milo; David Hartnell; Francis Rupe; Georgina Beyer; Helen Clark; Jurgen Hoffman; Karen Te Wao; Kate Sheppard; Kings Cross (Sydney); Les Girls (Sydney); Lorraine's Cake Kitchen (Wellington); Luamanuvao Winnie Laban; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; Māori; Observatory Hotel (Sydney); Parliament buildings; Pasi Daniels; Pindi Hurring; Rainton Hastie; Robin Waerea; Sunset Strip; Sydney; Tariana Turia; Taumarunui; The Balcony / Le Balcon; The Boatshed; The Purple Onion; Trelise Cooper; Trevor Morley; Tīwhanawhana; Wahine (boat); Wellington; abuse; ancestors; art-a-rama; compassion; culture; diversity; drag; drugs; friends; harassment; human rights; icons; legacy; mana; marae; parents; police; politics; powhiri; sex work; showgirl; social justice; spirituality; striptease; takatāpui; transexual; transgender; waiata; whānau
DATE: 1 November 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa, 55 Cable Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from people remembering Carmen after the powhiri gifting of her taonga (cultural treasures) to Te Papa - Museum of New Zealand on 1 November 2013. The recording finishes with a performance from Tiwhanawhana.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is, uh, Robin, and, um, today I've just, uh we've just handed over the town at the museum. My name is Jurgen Hoffman. And it was just a a fantastic experience to be here for, um, for Carmen and for Carmen to be recognised in such a fashion at, um, at te Papa museum with the, uh, Paul theory that we had this morning. So what's in the collection? What? What has been given to te papa? There's quite a number of, um of outfits that Carmen chose. [00:00:30] Um, because it was Robin and Carmen that, uh, went back to her, uh, her apartment. And, uh, Carmen was choosing choosing the Ides. This one can go to the Salvation Army. This can go to Te Papa Museum, and I want to take this one to the nursing home with me and this one you can throw away. So it was quite it was quite well done, and, uh, and she had and she had a great time. Uh, I think it was Still, it was a time of mixed feeling for her, and but she got through that. We got plenty of plenty of dresses, head pieces, jewellery, [00:01:00] from Carmen and handbags from Carmen and lots of little knickknacks that she picked up and said, Tepa, can you describe some of your favourite items? Oh, my favourite items were, um Well, she fascinated me. Actually, she can go into a $2 shop, and she can buy, um, Christmas, Um, tinsel. And she could make something out of it that will look like a million dollars [00:01:30] is the way Carmen used it. You know, everything was simple with her, and she could make it look so spectacular. So it was the Christmas tinsel that that was my favourite for me because I had a bit of think time. It was the blue dress, the blue sequin dress, which was actually, um, the only, uh, the only dress we were able to had made for measure for Carmen. And, uh, I'm glad she wore that to her 140th celebration. And, uh, and it was just lovely a pleasure [00:02:00] to do. How did how did you both meet Carmen? That was 11, 12 years ago, Robin Hart. We decided to have a commitment ceremony and a friend of ours. Rocky brought Carmen as his guest, so we met Carmen there and Robin and Carmen connected them straight away because they came from the same region in New Zealand. Well, when I first met Carmen, she says, Where are you from? And I said, I'm from And she said, [00:02:30] Oh, I'm from there, too. Well, we must be with our sisters and, um, yeah, I think both of us coming from the same region, which is King Country District. We both realised that we had the same interest, and and our upbringing and, uh, the way our mothers raised us, um, and both the way [00:03:00] and being gay was an open issue for us both. And, yeah, they had a wonderful relationship with car. What was it like attending today's? Um, it was quite emotional attending today's poor fit. It's been two years. It's been a long time in the making. And, um, and it's great to be here to get a sense of what, um, of what Carmen meant to the, um, to the New [00:03:30] Zealand people. And, uh, the recognition was just, um, um, breathtaking. I feel Oh, it's hard to explain. I'm feeling quite overwhelmed. Um, like you can see, it's been a bumpy ride. I was saved for the last two years and feeling quite, um, quite relieved in a way that we, um it's now her. Her is now [00:04:00] in the museum and extremely happy. Very, very happy. If you give me a glass of champagne, I don't know what what happened. So I was extremely happy. Thank you. What do you think Carmen's legacy is? Oh, that's a That's a tough one. But I think it's, um um be yourself. Be a good person, and, um, follow your dreams. [00:04:30] Well, mine would be as Carmen she believed in Don't hurt other people. Be kind to each other, help each other. If you've got something a little bit more, give it to others. And don't be selfish. You know, those were the wonderful, um, warm kindness that Carmen had, and it was all about sharing. Share your knowledge. If you you you've got a little bit of Well, why not share [00:05:00] that and and pass it around? Yeah. My name is Francis Deon Rupe, and I am a brother of Ever since she was in Wellington here, it has always been her dream that all her garments and all her trees they were to be given to the, uh, uh, the museum in Wellington here and on her passing [00:05:30] and come to this day that has reached Can you describe the this morning? Uh, it it it was massive. Uh, the people that were here really enjoyed everything. Uh, they were pleased to see that the, uh, all the had come into the, uh into the museum and a lot of people that she had been with for many, many years. They [00:06:00] spoke proudly about her. What does it mean for you and the family to have, um, Carmen's material here? Uh, it it it it's really massive. Uh, we are very, very pleased. Uh, that it is that it is going to go on display in the museum here and for you. What was the most moving part of this morning's ceremony? Uh, it was the speeches that were given out, and [00:06:30] things that she had dreamt about many years ago have actually come to fruition at this stage, mainly in regards to the gay people. Her legacy, really, I think, is everybody come to the museum here and just have a look at it because it will be on display all her necklaces, all her gowns, and there will be also write ups about her. Hi, my name is Amanda Lahore, and today [00:07:00] is the first of November 2013. We have just witnessed the Tonga that have come from Sydney. There's a whole contingent of people that have come from from, uh, to and they presented about 13 items that they're gifting to the to Papa and I didn't realise this, but to Papa actually have to [00:07:30] accept the gift or acknowledge that it is a gift. This was done. Apparently it was done three months ago. So this is a huge thing for New Zealand, and what it is is when Before Carmen died, she got a group of her friends together and she said, I don't want people to forget me. So she picked 13 items and she said, I want you to give this to New Zealand and to te Papa, and it was interesting. Um, one of the said that Carmen loved Papa [00:08:00] because it was a free place to get into. I cracked up that's so typically her. But, um, the accolades Taiana gave her an amazing talk about how she was a trend setter. She was, uh, an innovator. And for me and as a drag queen, Um, I've talked to the likes of Carmen and Donna Jenny, Ricky Love, and they've taught me that they walked in some horrific [00:08:30] shadows in darkness. They were abused psychologically, physically and mentally, and because they struggled through all of that in the sixties through to the seventies. By the time I came to light in the year 2000, I view the girls from Carmen's era like this. They walked in the shadows so that I can bask in the sun. And I'm looking at Carmen's legacy. She run for mayor, and she, um she wanted to decriminalise [00:09:00] homosexuality. She wanted to make prostitution. Um, legal. Bye, honey. That's J. Glamorgan. She wanted to make prostitution legal. She wanted to look up. Um, there's about five points. I can't remember them all now. Um, and at the time, people were saying that the sky would fall down Moral depravity. Um, New Zealand will never be the same. We would never recover from this. That was in 1979 [00:09:30] when she went to run for mayor. It's now 2013. Everything that she wanted to make legal happened about 10 years ago. So 15 years after she had introduced it, it's all happened and we can guarantee. In New Zealand, the sky didn't fall in as said. So I'm just I'm really humbled today. People like Uncle Mickey, who's sitting there in a sequin blue Monte shirt. I think [00:10:00] on one finger he has approximately three rings. So on five fingers he'd be wearing about 30 rings all up. His is made out of crochet, um, crochet wool and colours that look like the Miami Sound machine has exploded all over him. Then he's got his traditional Maori headband on with one single dangling shark skin shark's tooth earring. The likes of Uncle Mickey [00:10:30] have set trends for a lot of the dry community. A lot of the gay transgender, um, intersex community. So being in the midst of people like him is so humbling. The, um, the that the, um, chairman for Papa gave amazing, Absolutely amazing. Can you describe, uh, what is the the atmosphere here? I think there's a lot of, um, camaraderie, a lot of old friends that have haven't seen [00:11:00] each other for years. There are a lot of new girls like myself that are being introduced to the ones that walked in the shadows. Um, all up, if you If you look around the room basically there's Chinese. There's Malaysian. There's French people. David Hartnell has brought a lot of people in. Um, Georgina Baer was here just a moment ago. Robina from Auckland's come down Karen and Petty, um, mother from K Road. Mother Kay. It's a whole conglomerate, [00:11:30] a whole mix of heterosexual, um, gay GL BT community GL BT I community. Um, there's a lot of artists here, like a lot of painters, singers, all coming to pay tribute to one solid, upstanding New Zealand icon. What do you think Carmen's legacy is? I This is just now, personally, for me. Her legacy is just because she's known as a New Zealand [00:12:00] icon. I know that I'm safe walking in her shadow. I know that nothing will happen to me because it's already happened to her. I know that I'm free to walk around in a Black Cooper vintage sequined frock. 2014 collection, by the way. So it hasn't been released yet, but I know that I can walk around in this frock and I'm safe. And amongst my family and amongst people that are GL BT I I know I'm safe. But I also know in [00:12:30] the streets of Wellington I think Wellington is the safest city in the world to live in. It's very open and very accepting of so many people. What? How are you finding today? Very moving, very moving. And as you say to actually have that Oh, just just the range of people and the diversity. Um, but also, to see the the kind of love and and compassion, um is really special. And coming from a European prospect perspective, [00:13:00] did you understand the Maori? I didn't understand the words, but I think I understood the feeling the the level of respect for Carmen and the collection and and the and, um and kindness, um that they were real treasures that were being handed over I. I found it exactly the same. I think the most moving part and I, I must admit, I was watching you. I was watching people as we were being welcomed in [00:13:30] to the actual which is, uh and I watched the European people's faces and the eyes got bigger and glazed over. And I think coming growing up Maori I was accustomed to it. But it my mind immediately was flooded with all the people that I had lost. Like my parents, my sisters, brothers, uncles, aunties and some of the that they sung or some of the that was spoken was so old and steeped [00:14:00] in so much mana and tradition. I couldn't see very much because the eye started to cloud over and when I looked around I could see that it was like a a gentle humility from everybody, regardless of race. Regardless of what was being spoken, there was an intrinsic spiritual that just like a quiet hush, came over the people. And slowly you watched row by row and people were bowing their heads as a symbol of respect. And it testified to me the true [00:14:30] mana and the true essence of what Maori is on Maori is, and also Carmen was a strong advocate for her Maori people and for her um GL BT I community. This is the thing that I out of everything that happened today out of all the people that I've met, that's the thing that I think I'll hold the most. Because in just that, there must have been about 100 and 30 people that were coming in to the on the coming on to the [00:15:00] which is the area. And there was not one of them that felt separate. It was like this cloud of you belong here. This is We are all family. We all bleed. We all love. We all cry. And we now are all family. Whether you're heterosexual, ga gay, bi transgender, there was no differentiation. And, uh, that was the most humbling thing for me. I looked around and I thought, This [00:15:30] is amazing. And I I was I've been proud all my life to be Maori. This was one of the proudest moments to unite a group of people for one person. We all come together for one person. Little did I realise how this would unite a multiplicity of people. Oh, and, um, it's great to be here at papa for, um, the gifting of the of Carmen's. Uh, [00:16:00] I think there was a real feeling of unity and love in the room. Um, it was great to be here for this special occasion, and, um, I look forward to the exhibition coming out when it does. When did you first meet Carmen? Um, I met Carmen 30 30 about 35 years ago, Uh, when she was visiting Auckland. Um, I met her in a bar and we had a chat, and, uh, we shared some drinks. And then over the years, our relationship fostered in our friendship group. What was the most emotional [00:16:30] part this morning for you? Um, the emotion part for me, I guess, was sort of the actual carrying of the I was fortunate enough to be able to carry one of them through, but, um, just the calibre of the speakers that were in the room this morning. Um, the minister, I think that she had it spot on. Um, what the mayor said I thought was fantastic. And, um, I guess the setting, too, was very befitting because Carmen was from Wellington. Um, it was a beautiful setting. So immediately arriving [00:17:00] at Papa set the scene for something that was, um, going to be as a very special morning. I'm Karen. Um, it was a privilege to be here to Papa with all of us old sisters that to bring Carmen's Tonga back to New Zealand. Um, I first met Carmen when I was 14 when I came to Wellington, which is nearly 45 years ago. Um, so Carmen and I have been long time friends. Can can you describe some of the things that that that have been gifted [00:17:30] today? Oh, yeah. So Carmen is most people that knew Carmen. Carmen was into voodoo, and I see her voodoo dolls being gifted. And she was also right into Egyptians. And there's a kind of an Egyptian head and some of her clothes. So you were saying that you first met her when you were 13. 14? Where where did you meet? At the coffee lounge. So I grew up in a small country town. Didn't quite know what I was. But [00:18:00] I I knew what I was but didn't have a name. And then I saw Carmen in the paper at Trentham races with the boobs out here, and I thought that's me. Hitchhiked to Wellington, knocked on her door. And the rest is history. Can you tell me what that first meeting was like? Um, she didn't actually think I was She thought I was female. Um, and from Then on, I worked at the balcony. Uh, sorry. At the coffee lounge. Back then it was I'm not sure if it was actually illegal [00:18:30] to wear women's clothes, but the police used to harass us to the max, like in street at the coffee bar. They'd kind of be waiting for us to step out of the cab to arrest us. Um, but looking back on it, it was probably a lot more unified. The what it is today. Um, because the only place you could go was either the the balcony coffee bar or another transgender person. Chris, we took our own. The sunset. [00:19:00] I mean, times were very different then. So men were men and women were women, and there was no in between. And I mean, way back then, the homo homosexual was illegal as well. So So Carmen paved the way for all of us, you know, and I think even for lesbian gay, she paved the way. Yeah. So what do you most remember of Carmen? Um, I remember after we'd finished work at the coffee bar, we'd go down to, um, Lorraine's [00:19:30] Cake kitchen, which was in College Street, buy cakes and then go back to the coffee bar, have cups to chat. Yeah, it's probably and I remember the most. And what about Carmen's legacy? What? What do you think she'll be remembered for? Um, she was very honest. Um, and just probably a Trailblazer. Yeah, she paved the way for all of us. And [00:20:00] and it's It's really bizarre because Wellington used to be the make of the trains and probably in Wellington. Now, there's only four of us left of the original. Yeah, so everybody's slowly passing on. It is quite sad, but yeah, up. My name is Donna Demilo. And, um, we're here at te papa museum today to, um, [00:20:30] put some Tonga in of Carmen. That's her costumes and different things. And it was a really lovely day. And, uh, when we came up into the marae, I felt a great, um, feeling of, um, love and support for her. It was very moving. Yeah. Can you describe some of the the the items that have come into today? Uh, yes. There was a lovely, uh, I carried a skull cap with beads and feathers on it [00:21:00] with silver. There was a lovely silver, um, dress. Um there was a pink dress with one of her dolls. There was the, um um, head. There was also, uh, her maori. Um and, um, yes, there was a and and her beautiful necklaces and different things were brought in. Yeah, it was very nice. What was the most moving part for you? The most moving [00:21:30] part was when we walked into the and when they welcomed us on that. And that was just to me was the most moving part. All of it was very nice, but that was the most move that brought me to tears. Almost. Yeah, it was. I just thought at last, you know, our sister is here, you know, our is here, you know, she's here, and she's she would have been absolutely, absolutely Yeah. As as as Gen says, Carmen shines again one more day, but this [00:22:00] is sort of the finality of it all. I really believe so. But it'll be nice when the exhibition comes out. Um, well, my name is, um, the first time I met Carmen, um was on the very night that the sunk and, um, we arrived at Carmen's International Coffee Lounge, which was full of Americans. We'd just come in from the railway station where everyone gathered when the wahine sunk. And, um, I arrived with my one [00:22:30] red stiletto Italian, I might add. And, um, Carmen told me it wasn't good enough to work in one stiletto. But anyhow, um, we did what we did. And, um yeah, and that was my first time I met Carmen. And then the next time I met Carmen was when, um, one night when I got off stage at the balcony and Carmen told me to, um, go home and get educated because I'd never be a showgirl. And so that's exactly [00:23:00] what I did. And now I have a PhD in psychology. And so I owe all this to Carmen. And over the years, I've, um, car and lived around the corner from me in Sydney. And, um, the thing I miss most about Carmen now is our little afternoon tea chats. We used to go to the observatory hotel where they'd have a three tier cake plate with tiny cakes and sandwiches, pot of tea, and Carmen loved it. And, [00:23:30] um, during my working years, um, I took Carmen there on a regular basis, and the two of us sat there like two little princesses. Um, having afternoon tea. And one of the great pleasures was after she died. Erin and Robin took me there, and we sat at the same table that Carmen and I used to sit at. Yeah. Emotional. Yeah. So I've had a long history with Carmen. Yeah, she was a very much [00:24:00] a Trailblazer and very much, but she was a good friend. I don't want to talk about the publicity of Carmen. I want to talk about the private car. She was a good friend. Very good friend to me. If you were to describe her as a friend, what words would you use? Compassion. Great listener. Always had her hearing aid turned up even though she didn't wear one. You know, it was like she was there. She'd listen. She'd never invalidate you. And she used to watch out. She [00:24:30] used to. The only thing I used to hear her say was Don't you get into those drugs that ruins all the girls don't get into the drugs pen, don't get into the drugs. I think that's a pretty supportive person. And she was so compassionate towards the, um, transgender drug users in Sydney. Very compassionate, you know, very compassionate on the street and in private with them. Yeah. In fact, I think [00:25:00] she was quite a mentor. You know, to them, the thing that strikes me about Carmen is that she seems to be able to work on so many different levels in society. You know, she she she crosses all kind of stratas. Um, yeah, and I think that the diversity, um of her friends was just incredible. I don't know anyone that has the diversity of friends that Carmen had from designers to politicians to, you know, to street hookers, to [00:25:30] to girls managers, you know, it was just unbelievable, You know that? That, um yeah, the diversity of her friends. Even at her funeral, the diversity of her friends was just incredible. Absolutely incredible. And then when I came to Wellington, I came and asked me to come to Wellington with her on her 70th birthday when we were having the big party here. So I came not knowing what to expect and to go to her 70th [00:26:00] birthday down here at the boat shed. And the diversity of people there was just incredible And the way that everybody could be themselves knowing that they wouldn't be judged. And that was, you know, um, everyone from every walk in life they knew that they could be themselves because Carmen would not judge. And I think that was probably the key to her entire life. You know, that that whole thing about her was that nonjudgmental? [00:26:30] Yeah, that real, non judgmental, um, mentality that she had, Uh uh, Yeah, and she didn't just say it. She practised it. And that's the difference. You know, she actually practised, you know, that nonjudgmental thing instead of just that that front that people have for publicity reasons. Carmen was never like that. Love the publicity. But she was herself. You know, um, which is quite incredible [00:27:00] that someone could be so famous for being themselves, which is I think that's that. That's the message. I hope that Carmen Instals in the youth of today when they have an exhibition here of Carmen. I hope that's the theme. Be yourself. And this is you know, anything can happen if you be yourself. And I think you know, that was the essence of who Carmen was. And that's why she became famous because she was herself. What you saw is what you [00:27:30] got there was There was they say, the show girl, she was a showgirl. But off stage, she was not a showgirl. You know, she still wore the glamour and the glitz and all that down the street. Um, yeah, but she was still herself. Yeah, and, yeah, be yourself. That's what's important in life, I think. And that's what she, you know, used to tell us all just through being calm and not because she used to tell us to do that, but by being calm. And, you know, [00:28:00] she was just a perfect example of who she was. Yeah. Hm. So where do you think that strength of character and that strength of, um, believing in yourself and just being yourself comes from? I don't know. I really don't know. I don't know. No idea. I think she used to draw a lot of, um power from her higher power or a power greater than herself. Not saying that that was her god because she was a Christian. [00:28:30] But her mother, I think, played a very big role in her life. And quite often she used to say to me. 00, I think Mum disapproved of that or Oh, I think Mum would love that. Um, she quite often say things like which made me think that a power greater than herself in her life like a guardian angel, you know? And I used to say to her, you know, especially because I was by her, um, right up until she died. And she said to me a couple of times, you know, at the hospital, [00:29:00] um, you know that she felt the presence of her mother, and I used to say, It's your mom putting her wings around you, darling. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What has this today meant to you? A lot? Um, Carmen went to Australia, and it's just nice to come home. And this is my home. This is my homeland. As Carmen would say, Go home. Twinkle [00:29:30] your own home soil between your toes, which I do physically every time I come home. And, um, yeah, it's just nice to come here and know that Carmen's not forgotten. And she is still around today, um, as that a credible spiritual leader for transgender people. Um, yeah, and And when I walked in there today. I know she was here. I know she was here. I know that. [00:30:00] Yeah. And I think Robin and I have done her proud and the way they've seen her wishes through, um, Because I knew what her wishes were. I heard them from Carmen, and I just think they've done her proud, um, to get over the hurdles and all the rest of it and actually be here today and see those wishes fulfilled. You know, I think they've done her proud. As far as I'm concerned, I'm you know, I think it's wonderful. And it's nice to see so many people here from Sydney. Yeah. Yeah. [00:30:30] What's been the most moving part of the the day for you so far? Walking in there besides someone who I happen to know that Carmen totally admired. And that was Georgie Bayer to walk in there with two pos of Carmen's, which I had touched, um, did a dance once with, um, showed Cal and showed off. Should I say how I could work two boys? What a shame she didn't have four. Because I can work. Four learned that at primary [00:31:00] school, you know, and, um, to carry those in beside Georgie. Bayer was an extreme great honour for me. I feel very complete knowing that I walked in with those two boys with someone that come and had so much respect and honour for him. Yeah, Yeah. She just thought Georgie Bale was sliced bread. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. So that was wonderful. That was quite an honour for [00:31:30] me. Yeah, Yeah, yeah. What do you think Car's legacy is going to be? Or just someone who who, um, wanted, um, wanted everything And, um, all all this legislation she want? Yeah, I think she'll just go down as someone, um, like the sisters. Um, you know, the beginning of suffragette. She was the beginning of I won't say transgenderism, but I'll say she was the beginning of, [00:32:00] um, New Zealand growing up and becoming, um, because back in the fifties and sixties, we're so far behind the rest of the world. We're not anymore. We're not anymore. And that's because of people like her, you know, like Carmen and and and, um, Kate Shepherd. You know, they're all great, Great New Zealanders, um, that have now placed us in a [00:32:30] position where we're in the forefront of the world. We're world leaders in human rights, social justice, you know? And Helen Clark, you know, the honourable Helen Clark. She made very sure of that. And her legacy of social justice. Um, and I'm not saying that because I'm political because I'm not. Yeah, I'm not political at all, but yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, and I think that's what Carmen will go down on. She's definitely written in a history book. There's no question about that. [00:33:00] But I be It's It's like that speech today. You know, she wanted, um equality, Um, for everyone. Lesbian, gay, transgender or transsexuals. We were called in those days. Um, and she wanted, uh, prostitution legalised. She just wanted all these things that we now got and the same with Kate Shepherd and other Trailblazers. I mean, they want all the staff and believe that, as we [00:33:30] you know, as humans, we are entitled to them. But we don't get them until years later. And sometimes we don't get them until these people die, you know? Um yeah, and that's what I think. Carmen will go down and always remember it as as not just someone who participated, but someone who lead. Yeah. Yeah, because she didn't participate. Carmen never participated. She led. She was a leader, not a participator. Yeah, [00:34:00] well, I'm I My name is Pasi Pai. Daniel Silva. And, uh, I came this morning to pay homage to to Carmen because she she started, uh, at my place. I used to own the Purple Onion in Vivian Street, and Carmen started from there. She was selling the coffees and and everything When I had the drag show. When I first opened the drag show, I was the first one that opened in New Zealand, [00:34:30] for that matter. And then that's we've been friends for over 50 years. You know, I was surprised to see very few friends are left because I'm 79 years old. Very These girls, you know, and they they're in their sixties already. But they started at my place when they were only about 14. 15. You know that they most of them, like Donna, the other terminal. Otherwise, there's not many people that I remember. This is how I went to America for the last 32 [00:35:00] years. I just came back, you know, not very long ago, but it's I always like I've always loved her, you know, because she she came to Australia when I was living over there. And what do you call it? I talked with her. And every year when I lived in America, I always come and stay and talk with her and take her to lunch and everything you know. So she's been a friend for all these years. You know, I don't think anyone can say anything funny about Carbon Car was a was hilarious person to know, You know, she's [00:35:30] got personality. Plus in any other ways, you know, in those days as as big as life itself. You know? That's what Carin is like, you know? How did you meet? I met her in Sydney when she came to Sydney before This is a long time before she came and and and go for a But I knew she was only young in those days. She was 17, 16, 17 in those days in city because I I was working. I hope they don't tell anybody [00:36:00] this. I was working at girls and and at a purple onion in Sydney. That's how I got the name to open my club here. Purple on. When I left Sydney to come here, my oldest son was born over there. Then we came here and and, uh what, You call and came here and opened a purple onion in those days. But I met over there when she Oh, I remember something real funny when when was done. She was working in a in A as a waitress in one of the coffee shops [00:36:30] in the cross there, you know? And I remember all the guys in those days because those days drag queens weren't much in those days, you know, funny. But Carmen was serving. And then the guy one guy says, You knew? Yes, that's how car talk. Yes. And I said, What's your name? Is it car and the guy come and carry on and do a job? And she came back in and said, Come and do it She said, Come and get it. And [00:37:00] those are the funniest. The the things that I remember her by is being, uh, a a wonderful person as she is, you know, she's nothing. She doesn't hide anything from anybody. She was so sweet to everyone that she knows, You know, she met that and there's nothing else. What else can you say about? You know, When I came to New Zealand, they made the entourage of coming from Sydney the ones that was over there. They all came here at the time because I opened [00:37:30] the purple is with a drag show, first one in New Zealand. Our club was the first one opened in Wellington anyway, and in Auckland we were about the same time as has opened in Auckland. But there's not very much that I could say about today's today's thing about when I look, there's only her and Donna and only very few people and that I came with it was a police force in those. Those are about the only people that was around at that time when we first started out, you know, there was hardly [00:38:00] anybody, didn't even have a place. She started it from my place, make money to open a coffee shop and stuff like this, you know? But my club was the was a let out for all the queens that came over here, all the drag queens and they all come to my place, you know? And it was terrible because when when we first opened, then the kid, My son was young and those things, but they used to ride it on a on a You see how easy it was when come out easy there the people write things. [00:38:30] Nasty things on the foot part, you know, because the place when I took over was only just a small coffee bar. No name coffee shop. So we opened as a no name coffee shop. But it didn't take me long. Two months later, I changed it to the audience, you know, and start having a show, have a show every night of the week, except for, um, Sunday. We have a, uh We We have a, uh what? You call it a talent show on Sunday so that all the new ones do drag queens like Nicky and [00:39:00] all them. They all auditioned for those days in those days, you know, they all came down and and and auditioned and work in the club in those days, you know? But that's what the humble beginning that Carmen done. I always she always know that you remember those days when I used to be at the and, you know, used to I always have a little talk with her and and that's all. But what is this? How would you How would you describe Carmen? Carmen was a good friend, and everybody [00:39:30] else is sort of, uh, feed off her car. It was an open book. Is an open book of a very loving person And, uh, what you call it, and And I think a lot of people took advantage of her when she first opened the clubs and she died the way she died. And it's only the gay people that, uh, that pick it up, you know, they should become more famous now than she ever was. But everybody else that used to work for Carmen is they made lots [00:40:00] of money out of that situation. That was it, you know, But the rest of them, they they just they travel on the on the big in the papers that, you know, the the the that she followed when she opened the coffee shop and stuff like this. It was an opening for all the gay people you know around in New Zealand that matters. You know, that's why she become famous, you know, he said, but I never could. I never She never says anything bad about anyone. She was She was such [00:40:30] a, uh, such a darling. You know, she was always have been and she always will be Always be by by by everybody say, Oh, she say something about car and that sort of thing But there's nothing much to tell She was so natural, natural person, natural friend to everyone, you know But everybody else, you know, all the all the gay kids you know, they become that got around was through that every that aspect was open to her, you know? And it was up through her [00:41:00] that all these people make a cup out of. And that's about all I could say about I miss that. Because for all these years, I've been there for 50 odd years. Over 50 years, we've been friends and we never had anything bad to say about anyone, you know. And Carmen never says anything bad about anyone else. She was so sweet like that with stuff like that. And I, I don't have anything. I'm not jealous or anything like that with her. But she was [00:41:30] She was so domino. She she came into the scene. And that's the thing, Which is fabulous personality, though. What was it like having the first drag show in New Zealand? How? How? How did people respond to that? Well, they didn't at first when we first opened they, as I said, they used to slander outside the door queers que and all this kind of stuff outside the front door. But But they soon come around. They come around and we open. We never, ever stop anything. We weren't doing anything [00:42:00] wrong, so we changed it to a strip club. And there's still the customers coming in like nobody's business. And all the young drag queens were coming out. You know, they all come on. We had the onion, you know, and all these ones they had started. When you like Georgina, they they've all started from the onion. It's always our place that made them come out, you know, and and, of course, the balcony and and coffee lounge. You know, they all come from there, you know, and all the ones that come from all over all over [00:42:30] New Zealand, they always sort of hit for the audience or common place, you know, but but That's it. You know, we stick with it. And it was because when I came from Australia, they were the biggest, the best clubs. There was the gay clubs over there, like the the lay girls. The most famous one was LA girls and the purple audience in Sydney, you know? And I worked at both places, You know, in those days, you know, you go in the sixties. Don't tell him I'm old. [00:43:00] How did the police treat you back back in the early days? Well, I never had much to do with them. It's usually the girls, you know. The girls were the drag queens, and that was they have a lot of things, but there were never any anything bad, the police and that sort of thing. Because I suppose we were new. You know it Don't say through the laws were stripping was about you Don't remove your pasties when you when you got your breast [00:43:30] nude. You know, when you are in those days, it wasn't but it didn't take long After that they dance in the nude, you know, everywhere they they're not allowed to move. You pose when you come down to your G string and that sort of thing. And I thought, you know those days, too, with the club in those days, The strip club in those days where I was so scared because of the laws and stuff like that. But they didn't have really. And when I went overseas and the strip clubs over there, [00:44:00] I could tell you it embarrasses me, the strip clubs over there to come. We had nothing to compare with the with the overseas trade on, on on the on, on on stripping. There's no nothing to compare with the with the Korean cops, you know, in in, in both in Hawaii and and and all over the all over the United States, you know. And I worked in Hong Kong, you know, and all those places like that I worked like girls in Hong Kong. I worked there. It was absolutely [00:44:30] stunning, you know. But anyway, I think since got on to the news of of going to be for the mayor and stuff like this, she's become real. Sheri it up so big, you know, when it comes to the gay people. But it wasn't really we did. I didn't have any trouble at all with the police. Anyway, I did it anyway, and I was the club owner, you know, But it was It's [00:45:00] a haven for our place in those days when we first opened up, it was a haven for the ones the the girls that are coming from out of town. They always come and every Christmas and stuff like this. I used to have an open house that they they have no homes because their families have sort of got rid of them because they were gay and stuff like this. We have an open house and they have open turkey and that sort of thing, they come and eat what they like, you know, and stuff like this. It was almost like a family sort of thing with all the and [00:45:30] all those girls. And all those guys have been like that all this time, you know? So we come to and stuff like that. We have customers that come there, that they come from the bluff. They bring a bucket full of oysters, you know, already from over there from the bluff, you know, just to just to be around to meet the girls and stuff, you know, and and stuff like that was a good business in those days. It's, uh, late. I think it was later on when other people had anything to do with it. [00:46:00] But in my from my side, I thought it was just a business as far as I was concerned. But we we we we got to cut them up. We packed out every bloody night. We used to do three shows, two shows a night after that. Three shows a night sometimes, you know, but anyway, they didn't even have any, Like, was going the laws about drinking at at that age that they they brought that out. I've left already then, but [00:46:30] because we don't, um, we don't talk about anything. Laws in those days, just whatever you get, you get Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, anyway, that was that. What was the most moving part of the, um, SC material coming in today? It was nice, you know, because when I looked at the at the memorabilia that she has over there, the stuff that she had over [00:47:00] there, it reminds me so much it just come right through. You know, there was so much common was a proper. She was a drag queen over and over. A guy there was never anyone like her, you know, as open as she is, you know? And she was proud of being, uh, being a trans, you know, being a drag queen, you know, but But there's there's there was so much when you look at all of the stuff that she has over there, that's her right through. Anyway, I used to come to [00:47:30] Sydney when I come from the States I. I used to go visit her in Sydney and have lunch together and stuff like that. I used to see her place with all the stuff she carry on this rubbish forever and ever. You know all these things of hers, and she's just only car and does this kind of stuff, you know, it's nice. It's not sad. It's a celebration, you know, for all them people to come out. You know what they are? I be true is the word you know, and I I I'm so I think all the all the [00:48:00] queens these days and and all the gay people should be so thankful for her. It opened every door for them over here. You know, not that I did very much for that moment, but in those days, you know, it was, uh, I don't know, running a business just like the way she run her business is it's just done out of her heart. You know, most of the stuff that she done. It's out of her heart. Those people that work for car, they make lots of money out of it, you know, [00:48:30] out of common. And then and there was nothing there was this other things that I don't agree. But I agree with her in many things. You know, III I I think of her after you know, my my niece. She she was a member of Parliament, you know? Yeah, we have you heard of her? Well, that's my niece. That's my sister's daughter. And is the Councillor over here? Well, those are my people, you know, and then nothing wrong but calm. [00:49:00] And she's always witty, but she's in parliament. She's always supported all the gay people. I said, I suppose, because I be, I suppose, But she's always like that. She's always calm, and this was common is such an open name for everybody that has anything to do with gay life. You know, the common name is always coming into business, you know? And that's what she's well known for. Big heart, big smile, big lips. That's common for you. [00:49:30] That's funny. TOEM I and boy boots up and and [00:50:00] fuck on always You know, of 92 [00:50:30] afternoon If I didn't know be Go to my to my I You want to [00:51:00] Bye. And movie in the last I Yeah, in I [00:51:30] It's I Yeah, in court [00:52:00] MA two my co my co Tell me what you want to thank you. I know [00:52:30] I a No. Yeah. See your mind Morning. My dinner [00:53:00] to and I walk up there. Yeah, you have to do I.

IRN: 763
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/south_crystal_and_harriet.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004280
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089574
TITLE: Crystal and Harriet - South
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Tabby Besley
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Fred Phelps; Glee (tv); Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Nayland Alliance of Gays and Straights (NAGS); Nelson; Qhoir (Wellington); Rule Foundation; School's Out (Wellington); Skins (tv); South (series); Stephen Fry; Waimea Alliance of Gays and Straights (WAGS); adoption; children; coming out; community; education; employment; facebook. com; family; friends; heteronormativity; homophobia; homophobic bullying; internet; labels; language; lesbian; marriage; marriage equality; media; parents; queer; relationships; representation; roller derby; school; sex education; singing; social media; sport; stereotypes; support; tumblr. com; visibility; youth
DATE: 14 October 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Nelson, Nelson, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Crystal and Harriet talk about identity and relationships.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I like saying queer more than I like saying anything else, but I don't like using it in reference to my sexuality or anything. I guess in the queer scene, I would kind of call myself queer. But in the in the in, just the day to day life, I'd call myself a lesbian because I feel like it's easier. And it's more relevant to like what I'm doing now. And it saves like questions or like having to explain yourself or kind of justify yourself when sometimes [00:00:30] you just can't be bothered. And what does queer mean to you? Just, um, like whatever I want at the time, like it means that I can just It means that I can just do whatever I want and I don't feel like boxed in like it means that like, yeah, it means that I can just like whoever I want And I don't feel boxed up, Yeah, and why don't you crystal like to put kind of labels on you Not to be like, I suppose, disrespectful to people that it really is [00:01:00] a huge part of my identity, But I feel like it's not a part of my identity that I need to express verbally, if that makes sense, like I don't know. Also, I think for me, I guess I kind of don't really say I'm a lesbian. I say, I'm Harriet. And then I just mentioned that I have a female partner. But I guess people in the straight community usually mean that they just assume that means I'm a lesbian because [00:01:30] because I'm with crystal or whatever. And then if I say Oh, blah, blah, blah my ex-boyfriend's like what? You had a boyfriend. What I'm like, Yeah, Sometimes they can have it like, just calm down, everyone. When did you become aware about your 6 11? No, Um, I suppose strictly when I was 21. But I don't I never know whether to like, I suppose, before that [00:02:00] I kind of thought I was asexuals or something for a long time and then clue in a bit later. But I don't know if that's part of this or not part of it. Whatever you want is part of it. Fine, then, like 16. Maybe. What kind of made you aware of that? Do you know? Like, were there things that you were thinking about? I don't know. I was reading a lot about Stephen Fry at that [00:02:30] time, and I became a little bit obsessed with him. And I just thought he was so great. And I was like, That is so cool that he can be, you know, this gay man in his sixties or something, but be celibate with his partner and and not have that I don't know, kind of. I don't even know what. But just I thought it was such a cool idea that that you could acknowledge how you feel [00:03:00] about things but not have to. I don't know. I just think Stephen Fry is really cool and I want that on record. And can you tell us who Stephen Fry is? In case people don't know? Um, he's this really cool British dude who he's a bit queer and and he's in like, some cool movies. And he hosts a show called Q I, which is like my favourite TV show. And he's just like a genius. Pretty much it's just like a really [00:03:30] smart cool all around. Dude, what did you say he was a comedian? He is a bit of a comedian, too. So do you say he was like an important kind of role model. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he was Yeah. I don't know. I just think he's great. Did you have to kind of come out? Do you think people still have to do that? Did you? What was your I told? I told my mum straight [00:04:00] up that Mum, I'm gay, and she's like, Ok, and then I don't I feel I feel like like I told her and and quite explicitly and stuff, but she maybe didn't understand all the sort of direct connotations of that or anything. But I also didn't feel like I had to elaborate on what, if anything, would change because I was gay. So sometimes she says things that are a bit [00:04:30] OK, ma. So, like, I came out to her and she told my dad and like my sister's No, but I haven't I don't know. I just don't really feel compelled to tell people straight up and generally, like, if if they're important to me and they're in my life, they already know Harry. Anyway, So it's all done for me. How about you, Harriet? When did you become aware of? Um [00:05:00] I guess I guess I kind of I guess I like in school. I feel like I did know that I had crushes on girls, but I didn't really think it was like a big deal or something that was like anything I thought it was just like something that happened. But I feel like I guess I didn't realise there were crashes at the time. But now I kind of look back and I think, Oh, yeah, they totally were then because because I read this book that said [00:05:30] Everyone has a crush on a girl doesn't mean you're a lesbian. And I was like, OK, great. But I actually I feel kind of annoyed at that book because it should say everyone has a crush on a girl doesn't mean you're a lesbian, but some people are. I feel like that would have been like a handy extra sentence because I feel like it was, like, kind of confusing. And, um, what was the other question about coming out? And, um, I guess I, I guess I was like kind of like thinking about stuff in my head, and I kind of [00:06:00] I kind of because I was dating me and I kind of felt like it was a kind of like a cliche or like I was trying to be someone that I wasn't to come out or say I was queer or say I was attracted to women. So I kind of just didn't until I had a girlfriend. And then it was, like, pretty obvious to Deborah because I had a girlfriend. So then they just like, figured it out. But I do feel, um, like like now I feel like I like I mean, I don't like that I have to, but I do like [00:06:30] coming out to people just say, just like correcting people. You know, people say, Oh, I say, Oh, my partner blah, blah, blah. And they say, What does he do? And I say She and I feel kind of like, annoyed that they that they would like, make those assumptions. And I feel like I want to out myself so that more people will realise that they shouldn't make assumptions about like, heteronormative assumptions about people. So both of you kind of came out after high school or were kind of figuring stuff out more then, but what do you think do you think your high school experiences [00:07:00] kind of played a part at all? Or do you think maybe if things have been different, you would have come out earlier? Or I feel like the first girl I went to, my first high school was extremely conservative, and I know that another girl in my class, I don't know if she came out, but she made out with some other girls in the locker room and everyone was like It was like a pretty negative reaction, [00:07:30] like everyone said like, pretty horrible things and I kind of I didn't think it was horrible, But I guess I kind of kind of joined in like I was kind of like, Oh, like, Oh, why would you do that? Oh, OK, but I feel kind of like bad about it now, But at the time, I just kind of thought like I don't know Why would you kiss someone at school? It just seemed like a weird thing to do to me. But then in my then I changed high school and it was like I met some queer people like [00:08:00] queer teenagers, and I thought it was pretty cool, and I just was like, fine with it, But I kind of had a boyfriend. So I was like, OK, great, whatever. Just anything then. Oh, this is hard. But, um, what was the question again? Do you think your kind of high school experiences kind of have, um, affected this? Especially because you didn't come out until you were, um, older. Do you think if things had been different or what was your high school environment kind of like, [00:08:30] Um oh, I feel like I didn't even know anything about or anything that wasn't like a really negative kind of media stereotypical portrayal of gay or queer at the time. Like, I don't know, [00:09:00] they I I just because I like I remember the year after I left school there was like, this big thing. And when I came back for the summer, all these kids were like, Oh, did you hear? So and so and all these kids came out and stuff when they left here, blah, blah, blah. And now they're at uni and all this stuff. And I remember thinking, Oh, OK, cool. But like I think possibly it it wasn't an environment that people could come out and at the time, But then the [00:09:30] wags started the year after I left. I think that's what it is at swags. I don't know, an acronym for something? Well, no. Wellington's alliance of gays and straights. Yeah. And, yeah, it started when I left. I don't know, but, um, I don't I just I feel like now I'm a little [00:10:00] bit angry at just the educational system in terms of like like, you know, you do health study at school or something, and they don't acknowledge anything along those lines. I feel like if maybe I'd, I don't know, head knowledge of it or or if someone had explained it in a really, I don't know, just applicable way it would have worked. Do you remember anything kind of in the health curriculum either [00:10:30] of you about sexual orientation or gender identity? I remember learning lots of stuff about straight sex, but I don't remember learning anything about sexuality at all. I don't even remember it being mentioned at all. Actually, no, I don't think so, But But I do know that now. My school I was surprised that school's out, [00:11:00] who are, uh, Wellington based youth School age support network Go, um, do a talk at my old high school, which is really good and also was, um, surprising for me, But going back to the old question, I think if I had been at my second high school the whole time, I might have come out earlier or kind of realised or kind of been in a different space [00:11:30] than in my super conservative, private all girls high school because there just wasn't a, um, supportive environment. Also, I'd heard that some girls had been because it used to be a boarding house and some girls had been expelled for for, like, a long time ago. But I'd still heard it expelled for lesbian activity like one girl gave the other girl a massage or something and then got expelled from the school. So I was kinda like, Well, OK, it must be like a really, like a not like, [00:12:00] I don't know, not good. Must be not a good thing to do. I didn't want to get expelled. I didn't really Not that I really wanted to give anyone else a massage, but I don't know, maybe if I had, I probably would have not done it because it would have been a bit scary. And do you remember anything in health classes? Not beyond the weird kid putting a condom on his head, so yeah. No, there was There was nothing. I don't know. Um, So what do you guys think are the most kind of important issues [00:12:30] that are facing queer and trends young people in New Zealand today, I think lack of information and lack of support from people. I mean, like, say, your straight parents might teach you the things that they know, but maybe they don't know that much either. So it's kind of I mean, who's if the school, if your school isn't? Yeah, just the lack of information and support. Yeah, I. I agree with that. Like, I agree differently with the lack of information [00:13:00] because I feel like if it was just you know, if it was just kind of a segment in your health class, you you would not be the tool bag in the playground who uses fag to describe their friends. Like in Yeah, Gay is not an acronym for Shitty. And it's a fall out boy song. So it's applicable to young kids. Do you guys hear that a lot still or did you [00:13:30] while you were at school, people using that again to me Fucking stupid or And even I said it. And I feel like I kind of like at 17. I was kind of like, Hold on, that's not OK. And I kind of had to train myself out of saying it because it was just something that was said and I didn't even think about it at all. Like I didn't really I didn't really think about it. And normally now I don't really hear it, But occasionally I do hear it when I'm kind of in a different place, like not in my work or not with my normal friends. And I feel [00:14:00] really shocked and kind of crossed, and I try to pull people up on it. But some people, sometimes people just are still quite oblivious, and they don't really. They they seem like, kind of taken aback or just kind of surprised or kind of confused about what I've kind of just said to them. But I do kind of make a point of trying to pull people up or just kind of being like I'm just kind of leaving the conversation or just being kind of annoyed that that people would still, you know, say something so silly. I. I do remember kids saying [00:14:30] it at school. I don't know if I ever picked it up as a thing, because I feel like I remember trying to use it once and then feeling so guilty about it, and then I never use it again. But I used to be like no one of those like, No, I'm not going to swear because I like having a vocabulary and and stuff like that. So maybe it was just tighter with that, Um, I don't know, but I feel like it was it was definitely a lot more of a deal with, like my sister's [00:15:00] year, who was below me because she's still like It's just ingrained in in the way she talks about anything. Nowadays. She just drops it all the time. And, um, what do you guys think? Issues facing current twenties in New Zealand will be in, like 10, 20 or 50 years time like didn't they will be. It will be the same kind of thing, or do you think we will have kind of evolved quite a lot. I feel like, um ideally [00:15:30] that we will have evolved a lot and I think that will be good. And I feel like even though it's kind of like a small step and there's still lots to do in the community, I think, um, the marriage, equality, passing in New Zealand kind of helped get some kind of visibility of the queer community and kind of like acceptance and kind of like a mainstream way that everyone can kind of see. And it was like a big deal. And it was really loud, like in Parliament and, you know, lots of people talking [00:16:00] about it, and lots of people had opinions about it. So I feel like it's kind of like a small stepping stone that could kind of lead to other things. All I can think of is like like in in 10, 50 years or something, you're gonna be going to funerals of, like, grandparents or or something that are strange, because they don't understand this right now, and it will be a weirdly tragic but happy time. Watching them slowly die out. [00:16:30] You mean goodness, I don't really have much to say all right, I'm talking like Fred Phelps. I'm not talking about your grandma. She's already OK, baby, let's move on. Um, how does this kind of community and kind of belonging to the kind of rainbow queer community important to you guys? Not especially. No, I don't think [00:17:00] so. Oh, well, kind of. No, not really. I just feel like I. I just kind of happen to be in this community, and that's where my friends are. So that's where I am. That's how I like it. But I feel like I'll be happy to be in any community. But that said, I do kind of like to to, um, to go to, like, queer events and stuff because I feel like I feel safer, like if, like, if I'm holding hands with the crystal on the street or something, Sometimes I feel like worried that someone's going to, like, approach me or say something not very nice to me. [00:17:30] So I feel like sometimes I do like being in the queer community because, um, it can be like a safer space. But, um, I I feel like it's not. Not that, I mean, if it was if I felt safe everywhere. Then it will be It will be. I'll be fine. To not like exclusively only be part of the community. I don't know. I thought it would be the answer for the last question Now except then I kind of didn't like all of [00:18:00] the toilets, all unisex. And then so wait. Now that kind of isn't It was supposed to be What's going to be an issue? A Well, no, you said, What's it? What's it gonna look like? And and like, moms and young Children won't ask you if you're in the wrong toilet and think that you can't read. And also people will say firefighter, for goodness sake, just say firefighter and police officer officer instead of policemen [00:18:30] and firemen. And also people won't say When you're crossing the road and the little light thing lights up, you won't say Look out for the green, man. You will see. Look out for the green person. Um so are you guys part of any groups in the queer community? Or are you part of, um, kind of like sports or arts or kind of other activities outside of that community? A DJ [00:19:00] for Derby does that count as something counts as, uh, it's a little bit arty sports sports. Are they queer sports teams? And you're in the gay gay choir choir. What's the big gay quiet? It's It's not actually called that. That's just what I like to call it. Quiet, Quiet [00:19:30] with a cue for What does it mean? It's just queer People singing, singing, singing is they? They do like choose to join a queer choir over a kind of non, Not especially it just I. I don't know. It just came up on my Facebook feed. I was like, All right, [00:20:00] if someone can teach me how to sing, do we have to explain what Facebook is? And then Harry will stop telling me I suck. Oh, what What does Facebook? Um, how do you think Facebook and Tumblr and Social Media kind of plays a part in the way? But, um, yeah, and the way that we connect and build our community? Um, yeah, especially as kind of queer young people. I feel like it's a really positive platform and also really negative [00:20:30] can be negative as well, because, um, it's kind of good. It's easy to make connections and kind of see people and be connected with events and make events and have people like see the events. I'm kind of trying to think I don't even remember how you found out about stuff before Facebook. Actually, that sounds silly, but I just truly can't remember. Oh, OK, maybe. And But sometimes I feel like it can be negative because I feel like sometimes within minorities, [00:21:00] people can be quite critical or harsh of each other. And I feel like the Internet or social media kind of gives people kind of like a faceless kind of opportunity to kind of say things that they may not say in person. I think people can get really hurt by that and and even stuff like not just within the within the minority itself, but just like stuff like cyber bullying, people being mean on the Internet, saying things that they wouldn't normally say through things like social media like [00:21:30] Facebook or or Tumble like saying hurtful things to people that they they may, they may not save money in real In real life, I feel like I've only well, I suppose I only really remember strictly kind of negative things based on like it. Like Harriet said it. It just gives people a faceless kind of opportunity to, I don't know, [00:22:00] attack each other or or something in. And it I think it it make. This was something I was talking about the other day, and it's kind of not really a thing, but it makes people very prone to sort of try and out jargon each other with their acronyms or something. And then, I don't know. You just you sort of read it and get a bit blitzed with Oh, gosh, I don't know what that means. I'm not queer enough anymore or something. [00:22:30] Yeah, I feel like there's a lot of terminology in the queer community. And sometimes people are like, Oh, blah, blah, this thing, this and I'm like, I just don't know what that means. And I kind of feel like, maybe, like, guilty, like I should know. Or how can you ask about, like, how can you How do you know that? Oh, are you queer? Are you even queer? Do you even Why don't you even know that? Because I feel like once you know something, you're like I know that. Why don't you know that I feel like that can be that Facebook is a good opportunity for people to like use language that I might not know. But [00:23:00] I guess it's an opportunity to learn something else, kind of both. Sometimes a lot of it is just a bit over the top in terms of like, how many different acronyms do you have for the same thing? Because people do it different ways or something. And you're just like, OK, what do you think about the way queer and Trans people are portrayed in the media currently both kind of thinking like Maybe, you know, like local [00:23:30] like, historic like people we know in New Zealand, like maybe politicians or famous people who are kind of queer but also thinking about like TV programmes like glee or like you know, what do you guys are we in the media? I feel like there's the visibility issue, so we're not there. But when we are, sometimes it can be quite negative. Or can we can be [00:24:00] where people can be portrayed as sad and bullied and troubled quite and quite negative kind of this. I feel like I always want to watch a queer movie or like a movie about two women, like a romantic movie about two women. That's not about them being queer like That's them about like like a like a straight romantic comedy where there's like some other kind of drama which has nothing to do with, like, just something that's not about them, like [00:24:30] coming out to their family or feeling sad or like turning straight or just just a movie. That's like just about just something just nice, like It's like a nice I don't know, just a different kind of romantic comedy for lesbians. That's not about just It's not about being a lesbian. I think often Trans people are made a mockery of in the media and all portrayed as, um really, um, like, especially [00:25:00] like, um, male to female Trans people are portrayed is like, really sexual and really like yeah, just really like That's like a focus of their personality or them or their portrayal in the media kind of or just kind of or just kind of miss, just kind of mistaken, just kind of badly portrayed, kind of just [00:25:30] like they kind of had no idea what they were talking about, and It's just kind of like a big joke. And if you kind of pull people up, I feel like people like, Oh, it's just just TV or it's just, you know who cares? It's just a thing. It's like, Well, actually, I do care because it's how people you know youth will you know that's what people see. Media is really powerful, and if they see all these negative issues, negative images or negative ideas about people, that's gonna affect how they are I. I agree with that. Like when there is media portrayal, [00:26:00] it's very, Oh, it's a le being romantic comedy or or whatever the deal is in that I don't know. That's just annoying in a way, and kind of I was thinking of like glee and like I feel like there's There's always this kind of like if a if a straight actor or actress is playing a gay character [00:26:30] when they're doing interviews as themselves, they are very, very quick to point out. Oh, I'm different from this and stuff and then they try and make it like like I'm highlighting this because I think it's good for the world to see that a straight actor can play a gay character and and that there's probably definite positive aspects to that. But I also people don't go around asking Anne Hathaway, who always plays straight people saying, Well, maybe she's been playing gay and I've [00:27:00] missed it. But don't always go around asking her if she's straight playing straight all the time, like Why do you need to distance yourself from it? Especially if you're trying to garner that kind of audience as yeah, you know, platform or something, or I don't know, but that's a little bit annoying, but I don't know. And then they get famous because gay kids and and queer kids and everyone are just like [00:27:30] the best fans ever. So it becomes a big thing. But then it's still like, I don't know, they don't want to be associated. Or do you guys watch specific things in the media or read specific things because there's queer characters to kind of see that identity reflected or yes, definitely I Yeah, I definitely do. I really do glee. I think Glee is a good example, because [00:28:00] I feel like I mean, some of the things I've done are a bit crap, but Well, there's lots of queer characters and lots of relatable, maybe potentially relatable characters, and it's like a high school drama about lots of things. It's like fun musical, and it's super popular and everyone loves it. And there's lots of queer characters just chucked on in there like Heaps all the time. And I think that's pretty great, actually. Do you think things like, um, Glee have kind of changed the way that queer people are perceived or like? Do you think they've made a difference? Actually, [00:28:30] yes, I do. I can't really describe how, but I I think they, they, they they well, they they make it visible and they kind of they kind of touch on issues that teenage that youth or teenagers might have, and they kind of relatable and fun character. So So, yeah, I think so. Glee really annoys me like I like glee, and I like [00:29:00] that they are queer things, but I have big issues with it, especially in terms of lesbian portrayal, because it's like like they oh, it makes me so angry sometimes, like they take so much care with a gay male character and trying to make that like this poignant kind of life changing thing. But when it's like queer young girls, one of them is a bitch and the other is an idiot and they're supposed to kind of I. I don't know. You're supposed [00:29:30] to find some kind of, you know, nice thing and their relationship, but also not really understand it. And it's not expanded upon, and it's like no one cared to make them characters. It was just a kind of gimmick to bring in the female gay crowd or something like that. Like That's true because with Kurt, they talked about his relationship with his father and about his father's lack of knowledge of, of, of [00:30:00] gay sex and and they but then with the they didn't even they didn't even and Britney was so like, not even a character. She's just like a gimmick. She's like there to say stupid things about ducks and cats and get Santana off. That's about it. Yeah, and it sucks. It really sucks. And I mean, there's also that thing where it's like, Are we ever going to see a boyish? Or I think maybe androgynous is the wrong word. [00:30:30] But like a boyish female gay character on a show that popular or something like, I feel like Glee could totally pull it off. Glee probably could, but they won't. And if they do, it'll be bad. Maybe they would be so bad. I feel like No, I kind of hope they would. I thought I thought the real glee, the real whatever, what it called the glee. I don't know the real G, whatever, whatever that is when they get the real people [00:31:00] to audition to be on the TV show, they might have glee project the glee because they kind of like having those kind of Yeah, it's like they bring them into audition, though. But then decide halfway through. Nah, you're not quite what we're looking for there, Danny. Is it Danny? Yeah, that kid. And apparently like the actress that played What's her face? Rachel hit on her anyway or something while she was there. I know. I mean, like like they're not, you know, they they think they've sort of pandered to [00:31:30] the female population as much as they need to. And that's about it Now, I reckon, Yeah, I agree with you, but I still I agree. I totally agree with you, but I just still, I just still like it. I guess that's because it's it's all I've got. So I just I really like skins. I love Naomi. Harriet hates it. [00:32:00] I don't know. It was just, I think I think skins really well, skins. I have to explain it like a TV show. Like it's It's like a British based kind of young teen thing, all about the the real teenager. But it's a little bit, you know, kind of hyper or hyped up and and stuff and just all the sick and drugs and stuff. That doesn't really happen, but they make it look really nice anyway. But, um, [00:32:30] so I think I think what skins did really well was they They like like the portrayal of knowing Emily. It wasn't about them being gay. It was just like a really kind of cute relationship. Are you sure? Yeah, I'm pretty sure because, like, well, even if it was about them being gay or whatever they like, there were aspects that were expanded upon like you, you had to learn about Emily's really fucked up, screwed up relationship with her sister, her twin sister [00:33:00] and stuff and like her mom was a wanker. And, you know, they were. They were, And like Naomi's mum was just lovely and weird, kind of like my mum. And like, I don't know, their friends were like cool but kind of tools at the same time. And friends are generally like that. So do you think? Yeah, How do you think it's different to like the characters and [00:33:30] the way it makes you feel? A different. It's a different country. So is always more kind of like than America. America is more kind of shiny American TV shows are kind of more shiny and happy, and I don't know. I feel like in British TV shows there's kind of Yeah, it's just kind of more gritty and kind of real or maybe more like a little bit darker or something. It was dark in the end. It made me cry. Everything makes you cry. What do you think crystal [00:34:00] about? Just like British American Or like the difference between bully and skins and how you feel about the cat? Because he talked about how, I suppose, like just what I said, like, skins kind of caught them as people, not characters or or stereotypes to get an audience. And I mean, like, I never actually finished watching the end of the the third generation, but like that whole kind of Frankie as a character that was such a cool character, [00:34:30] too. And it's like she wasn't just some gimmick to bring in crowds. Even well, maybe she changed her, I don't know, but like there were, there were aspects of just like being a cool person there and not just a This is a gay character and you're gonna have to be happy with it because it's all you get kids that you to not be on that or I just felt like, [00:35:00] Oh, it's just when I met Crystal, she was just really in love with those characters and, like thought they were so great. And then I watched it, and I was kind of like they're kind of horrible to each other. They're kind of horrible to each other. And the only cute time is when they hold hands through the cat door that is actually like the ultimate scene and probably like the best thing ever. But apart from that, I feel like they're quite mean to each other. And kind of if we had to rate glee and skins against each other and it was cat flap versus Britney and Santana on a bed cat flap [00:35:30] is gonna win. Or, like, even what's that? Like Britney and Santana First kiss at a Valentine's thing? That was the worst kiss ever, by the way. Really fucking awkward looking. I mean, work for the swearing a lot, but, jeez, Kit Fleck just wins. I agree. Um, and so how about you guys kind of personally like, looking forward to you? Are you interested in things like marriage and Children? [00:36:00] Yes, we are. Yes. I feel like, um I feel like Yes, I do want to have Children. I I'm going to have Children. And I feel like, um, I feel like there there should be It will be good to, um, have more support for, um, queer people wanting to start families. So just kind of I don't I don't really know where to go to kind of find support or information or Yeah, that too. Yeah. Yeah. True. Yeah, I Yeah, I don't know about that. And also, um, [00:36:30] I feel like now there is like, I don't really believe in marriage because I don't know. It seems a bit kind of funny, but I feel like now, of course, I'm like, I think it's great that there is marriage equality. But I feel like I would get married and it could kind of help me like, um, legally like, especially in terms of like if I had If we had a child, it would help us. It would help the child [00:37:00] to for us to be married, I think I I feel like that might be a thing because I guess, like, yeah, I think it would just help it would. I think it would just give some kind of legal standing and and so that is good and stuff like adoption. Is it legal now? I think it is maybe a logo on the way. On the way. I'm I'm really [00:37:30] interested in the adoption aspect, but what do you mean? You want to adopt a child? I do. I like I want to adopt kids because I, I don't know, I apparently you you said It's like a thing that a lot of maybe like queer people in general seem to hatch upon that aspect of of procreating as a kind of like, [00:38:00] What do you call it, like narcissistic or something kind of a deal or a no? No. Like like having kids. You said You said you'd come across like a few people that had had the same kind of I do. It was me or whatever, where, where? I. I feel like like not not to call people you know, dicks for wanting to have kids or something. But But I, I feel like personally, I wouldn't want to have Children because II I [00:38:30] just feel like it's I can't think of the word. I feel like there's two. I feel like it's it would be really difficult to adopt a child. I feel like in New Zealand there are not, like tonnes and tonnes of Children to adopt and I. I find it a bit kind of maybe, I don't know, kind of strange and kind of like, kind of like, um was it like an accessory to adopt a child from a different country? I feel like there's something just not quite [00:39:00] right about, and I just from my knowledge, there's not a huge amount of Children that need adopting or get adopted out in New Zealand because lots of Children in New Zealand get adopted within, like a family, kind of because that's how that yeah, like like Maori culture. So you so you would. So it's not that common. And also, I know that you can also discriminate against, um I know that you can with sperm donation, you can discriminate against adopting [00:39:30] to a gay family. And I feel like that would be really, um, like, horrible and like, really heartbreaking if you were really wanting a child. And I guess I just selfishly really want to give birth because I want to have that experience. So I, I Yeah, I hope there's like, more support for people who who want to have babies that way for me to, like, look to for information. So, do [00:40:00] you guys want to stay in New Zealand live, grow up here, have kids adopt kids here? Where do you want to go? Somewhere where I'm not going to be poor for the rest of my life. And what, um, jobs do you guys do now? And what are the things that you want to do or what are you studying. I am an early childhood teacher and I love my job. And I would ideally like to raise Children in New Zealand because, um, it is what? [00:40:30] Sorry. Go on, I'm done now. I mean, I because I because it's where I'm from and I feel like it's a nice country, and I feel I like it here. And this is where my family is. And this is where I'm from and that, and I feel like it's an important part of me that I'd want to share with my Children. Um, I'm TN [00:41:00] a sound engineer, and I'm studying business now, but hopefully I get into New Zealand drama school next year to do the entertainment technology course and I. I want to at this point in time, because it's probably going to change. I want to shut up here. I want to run sound for, like, Broadway or musical theatre or like West End kind of a deal. [00:41:30] And there's not a lot of work going in sound engineering in New Zealand anyway, so which is why I'm poor, but if But if you like, say you want to be in a different country for like your job prospects. But do you think New Zealand is an ideal place to raise a child? I know there was like, Yeah, they are, You know, whenever I I imagined raising kids or something, [00:42:00] I imagine doing it, like at my parents' house or something, and and having weirdo fields for them to run through and be dear and boo tree houses. But like that means I'd have to learn how to drive because it's in the middle of nowhere. But like I like, I also, uh, I also I want to raise, like, have kids or raise kids overseas because I want them to be international citizens [00:42:30] and and, you know, and there's this mindset of growing up in New Zealand, we're so far from removed from everything that we just don't click into the way things are everywhere else, I reckon, And like if you could raise a kid somewhere like Europe, where you could go, how many different places in a day or something that would be wicked, and then they could have the passport and come back here when they want to and need to go swimming at Tana Beach [00:43:00] and see some sand but and and yeah, but I suppose ideally, I'd want to, like, go work on Broadway, I think, for a couple of years and then probably come back. Yeah, Yeah. I like it here a lot. Um, do you guys have any kind of final things you'd like to say? Share with the people who will be listening to this in the future? [00:43:30] Anything you think is important to say about the way things are right now, Um, I feel like there's there's some positive things happening, but I feel like we there's, like, a long way to go for queer people to feel, um completely safe and visible and recognised and accepted in the without having to make a big scene about it all [00:44:00] the time. Yeah, like like I'm kind of looking forward to that. Or maybe it's kind of sad because people tend to like like queer parades and parties and things. But I'm looking forward to a day when it's not, like, necessary, necessary or or sort of the focus. I suppose, because you only generally get media coverage when you're wearing a giant headdress and walking down the road on a giant shoe or whatever. [00:44:30] I don't know. Yeah, if you still acquainted the desert. But what was my point again? Remember, you're looking. You're looking forward to a time when when that's what you see. I'm also looking to a time forward to a time when Fred Phelps and his whole family aren't around and getting media coverage. Fred Phelps is a can I say a douche bag on here. Fred [00:45:00] Phelps is a giant douchebag who lives in the States, and he runs this website called God Hates Fags, and him and his whole family run this church of people that go and protest at really random funerals about why God hates fags and things I don't know, but the the basically they just they're haters and they gone hate. And I'm looking forward to a time when they are not around slash They are [00:45:30] not getting media coverage that could be given to the queer kid wearing a head dress. A good way to put it. Um, just to end on a positive note. What's your favourite thing about being a Korean person in New Zealand today? Oh, are you even gonna do that? No, [00:46:00] I. I like being in it. I. I actually I. I like I feel a bit special and I like being in, Um I like I don't know. I just I just like being myself, I guess I don't really know how to I don't know how to describe it. I just I feel like I like I like being in a sometimes there is negative, but I like being in a minority group of people. And I feel like, you know, I kind of have a different perspective and, like, learn, like, know lots of really cool [00:46:30] people, lots of cool people in the queer community. And I appreciate lots of different perspectives. And I think being queer kind of helps helps me to be kind of more open minded and have different ideas about this stuff. OK, Yeah. Writing a giant show would be really cool if it was. If if anyone has a shoe and they want it to me for a short time, that'd be great. But mostly I like, [00:47:00] I like that, Um, this sounds really kind of frivolous, I guess. But I like that the fact that I had really weird style and and skill and and was kind of crap and stuff kind of translate quite clearly as quite cool. And so and so can we like badly fitting pants and actually I. [00:47:30] I kind of I kind of agree with that. Like, I feel like every time you go to a queer event, I feel like you can. It's kind of you can kind of dress how you want, and it's more kind of. I feel like people always. Often other people kind of worried that they have to wear certain things or wear high heel shoes. Or wear this and and or be fancy or wear this or you have to wear a dress for this thing. And I feel like in the queer community, it's more free and you feel like more able to be yourself kind of. And people are [00:48:00] kind of more yeah, extending off different things. And it's nice and like in the queer community, I like it when, um when, like you go to things and and yeah, and I don't know, just like quick kids have such good style and yeah and good hair and just can you describe some of the things that are good style [00:48:30] and good hair? I don't know. There's lots of it, like they always have cool coloured hair and they have piercings and like sweet ass tattoos. And like when girls have tattoos of those like old kind of pin up girl things, I always see some lady with them. It's really but like and like, there's this girl that works around the corner from my school and she's like she must work in one of the business buildings like, But she's always wearing the sweetest suits and they're, like, tailored so Well, I'm just like, damn, we have good style. Why can't we be [00:49:00] friends? I sort of like cool here. I'm just like, Oh, she had the coolest, like, bury suit thing the other day and it shouldn't work, but it does, and it's just like, damn girl.

IRN: 935
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_in_the_making_open_mic_sessions.html
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089669
TITLE: Open mic sessions - Queer History in the Making
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Adrienne Girling; Bella Simpson; Des Smith; Ellen Faed; Emma-Jean Kelly; Jac Lynch; Jevon Wright; John Jolliff; John Mayes; Karen Harris; Karen Te Wao; Kathleen Winter; Kevin Haunui; LaQuisha Redfern; Lainey Cowan; Leanne Chambers; Lynette Townsend; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Pat McIntosh; Simon Fulton; Stephanie Gibson; Tabby Besley; Valda Edyvane; Virginia Parker-Bowles
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 2010s; A Day Without Art (radio); Adrienne Girling; Afterlife Memorial Trust; Amazons Softball Club (Wellington); Aotearoa New Zealand; Armstrong and Arthur Charitable Trust for Lesbians; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Barry Barclay; Bea Arthur; Bella Simpson; Carmen Rupe; Chrissy Witoko; Chrissy Witoko Memorial Trust; Community Law; Conrad Johnston; Daniel Fielding; Day of Silence; Des Smith; Devotion (Wellington); Different Strokes Wellington (DSW); Ellen Faed; Elsdon Best; Emma-Jean Kelly; Evergreen Coffee House; Frank Lund; Friendship is the Harbour of Joy (film); Gareth Kean; Gareth Watkins; Gay Line Wellington; Gay Line Wellington Trust; Graham Brandreth-Wills; Hero (Auckland); Hetty Rodenburg; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Homosexual Law Reform Society; Human Rights Act (1993); InsideOUT Kōaro; Intersex Society of North America; Intersex Trust Aotearoa New Zealand (ITANZ); Ivy Bar and Cabaret; Jac Lynch; James Leuii; Jevon Wright; John Jolliff; John Mayes; Jonathan Dennis; Jools Topp; Karen Harris; Karen Te Wao; Kathleen Winter; Kevin Haunui; Lainey Cowan; Leanne Chambers; Lesbian Information, Library and Archives Centre (LILAC); Lesbian Overland and Cafe Club; Lesbian and Gay Fair; Lindah Lepou; Louisa Wall; Lynda Topp; Lynette Townsend; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Margaret Sparrow; Mark Proffit; Matt Cook; Mouth Wide Open (film); Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; Māori; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; Neil Anderson; Nelson; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF); Ngā Taonga Sound and Vision; Out in the Park (Wellington); Out in the Square (Wellington); OutTakes: A Reel Queer Film Festival; Outerspaces (Wellington); OverWatch (NZ Defence Force); Pat McIntosh; Paul Jenden; Peter Cuthbert; Peter Wells; Polari Fantabulosa (Wellington); Porleen Simmonds; Project Youth (Kapiti); Q Youth (Nelson); Queer Domesticities (book); Queer History in the Making (2015); Rainbow Team Wellington; Rule Foundation; Sam Neill; School's Out (Wellington); Shift hui (2015); Shigeyuki Kihara; Simon Fulton; Social Fruits (Wellington); Stephanie Gibson; Tabby Besley; Tapatoru; Tapu te Ranga Marae; Tatou (e-magazine); Ted Coubray; The Adventures of Jonathan Dennis (book); The Glamaphones; The Silent Migration: Ngati Poneke Young Maori Club (book); Topp Twins; Tranzform (Wellington); Tīwhanawhana; Valda Edyvane; Virginia Parker-Bowles; Wellington; Wellington Access Radio; Witarina Harris; badges; bars; biculturalism; bullying; clothing; coming out; community; crafts; death; diversity; fa'afafine; film; funding; funeral; gay; gender; gender identity; homophobia; homophobic bullying; homosexual law reform; human rights; identity; identity documents; internet; intersex; language; lesbian; marriage equality; movies; music; queer; queer straight alliance (QSA); radio; safe sex; singing; social; sport; support; swimming; t-shirts; takatāpui; trans; transgender; transphobia; visibility; visual arts; walking; wedding; youth; zines
DATE: 12 September 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Audio from the open mic sessions held during the community event Queer History in the Making, where individuals and community groups were invited to talk and share about various rainbow activities.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um, for those that don't know me, I'm Adrian. And I'm Karen. We go by Adrian sometimes, um, and we're the chairs for out in the park. Um, so we just wanted to talk to you a bit About where we're going out in the park in the future. Um, say a few words about where we've come from as well. Um, so out in the park started as, uh, the gay and Lesbian Fair in 1986. And that was called the A Fair [00:00:30] for a fair law at the time for the homosexual law reform. Um and so we're also celebrating our 30th anniversary next year with out in the park. So we have a lot of things planned for next year to celebrate both the homosexual law reform and our own anniversary as well. But I think we're aware that we're Oh, my goodness. This microphone is we're the new chairs out in the park and very much the kind [00:01:00] of new kids on the block out in the park. So over this next year, we're really keen to be, um, hearing more from you about the last 30 years, which we will be doing over 2016 in many ways, but particularly for us around out in the park. So, um, we'll be coming to you all to find out more really about your experiences 30 years ago out in the park and kind of where it's come to from then as well. And you'll be able to tell that we're both, um, newcomers to New Zealand as well. So we weren't here at all. Um [00:01:30] so we really we're really mindful of wanting to create an event for everybody. We want the whole community to be involved. Um, and we want it to be representative of what people want. Uh, like Jack said, Out in the park is a big celebration, and it's fun, but it's not only we don't only want to represent the fun celebration. We also, um, are really focused on our history and where we've come from and wanting to just bring together our communities. So [00:02:00] you'll be very aware that traditionally that out in the park has been about the fair aspect of out in the park, and so that will continue next year, as you would have been used to for the past 30 years in various formats and various locations. So next year we'll be holding the fair in Waitangi Park on March 12th on Saturday, March the 12th. So obviously will be sending more information out about that soon about what that will look like. But just as in previous years, it will. Still, this is the fancy graphics. It will still be what you would expect [00:02:30] around stalls, the free entertainment that the fair has become really renowned for having a very much a community and a family focus. As you can see, our comms team have been busy this week, so I've had to make the slides and I take full responsibility for that. So the fair take note of the date of the fair next year, which will be just as you've expected in the past and had in the past in terms of what the fair and the focus of it is really about. And I will say that this will be our first time in Waitangi Park. We were supposed [00:03:00] to be there this year, as you know, and we're cancelled. So we are working on some contingency plans as well. If the weather doesn't cooperate, so we don't have to cancel next year. Um, and the other. Another big announcement that we're we've made already and making again now is, um, that we'll be having a week long festival event of events as well. Um, we really don't see this as an out in the park festival. We see this as a festival for the whole community, and so our role will be to just help facilitate put together putting together [00:03:30] that festival, um, helping find venues for different events. Um, but really, we want all the different community groups and members to put on their own events, so that could be events that you already put on, and we just slot it right into our programme and advertise it. Um, or you can if there's an event that you always wanted to go to or have, you could just brainstorm those ideas with us, and we can help you put that together. Um, So whether you have experience putting on events or not, we [00:04:00] want everyone to really be involved in that. And so that will be, uh, for the week leading up to the 12th, so march 5th until the 13th. And the purpose of that is because it is the 30th year 30th celebration out in the park as well as the homosexual law reform. So that's why we wanted to extend the kind of celebrations during that week. And again, we'll be sending more information about that soon about how to get involved in that. And we'll help to co ordinate that week long week long set of events. Um, [00:04:30] and then finally, the kind of third aspect of out in the park for 2016 will be the parade, which again we we had. We had the first parade last year, and so we'll be having our second parade this year. And for us, really, the importance of the parade is again about it being very community focused and groups and individuals being very much involved in the creation of that parade as well as participating on the day. So last year we held a series of workshops for the community to create kind of, um, the visual side of [00:05:00] the parade and help us create decorations. Um, and we're we're hoping to hold some of those again. They're very family kind of focused as well. But to come along and get involved with helping us prepare for setting the parade up, which again will be. I hope this year will be along the waterfront going from Frank hi to Waitangi Park and then finally, of course, as well as the kind of preparations for the parade. Hopefully on the day the purpose will be to be as visual and as loud and proud as possible. But again, for it to be very [00:05:30] much about community groups and coming together for that visual aspect of raising awareness throughout Wellington and on the city on the day and that will be on the same day as the fair. So the parade will go along the waterfront and then arrive at the fair. So really, the festival will really just build up all week and end with the the parade and the fair. So we'll have kind of big bang at the end of the week. And again, we really want all the diversity of our community to be represented [00:06:00] in in the festival and the fair and the parade. So we want everyone there. But one thing we are asking today is we are looking for a name for the festival next year so if you can come visit us on the table at the back, we've got a selection of names have been suggested so far. And we'd like you to come and kind of vote on those so that we can start giving the festival a name for the week and then start promoting it and sending you some more information about that. So please come and chat to us about the festival name. Come and give us other suggestions or come and vote on the ones that [00:06:30] we've got already. That'll be great. Thank you. Thank you. Like who remembers the Newtown fair in here? Hands up. Yeah. And who remembers out in the square? Ok, this is a queer history. This is where out in the park has come from. It's it goes back to Newtown Park. And it, um, Des and John [00:07:00] and others involved, um, 29 years ago, 30 years ago next week. So this out in the park is our main celebration during the year for getting us together. So if you want to get involved or you need to find out more, please check out the website, go to the visit Adrian at their desk. Um, and there's a Facebook page as well. Now, I'd like to introduce Captain Leanne Chambers from Overwatch. [00:07:30] Uh, thanks very much, Jack. Um, it's a privilege to be here today, and once again, I take my hat off to the organisers for actually putting on this event. Um, it's actually quite nice to be inside rather I. I love out in the park. And when it was out in the square, but it was always had a tendency to be a bit windy, but it's nice to be inside here where it's it's quite a a nice intimate, um, environment. Um, [00:08:00] I'm Captain Lean Chambers, chair of Overwatch and representing Overwatch today. Here. We also have Hannah Kerr. Put your hand up, Hannah A. I've only got eight minutes, so I'll try and keep it brief. If you want to know anything more about Overwatch, um, and the New Zealand Defence Force, please come and see us at our stand after this. Um, I actually actually represent three minority groups. Um, New Zealand defence force is quite, um um, uh, proactive around diversity. [00:08:30] So I actually represent three minority groups within the defence force one being a lesbian one being a woman and also being a trombone player. So the New Zealand Defence Force, uh, responded to the Human Rights Act of 1993. We immediately recognised, um, single sex relationships as as, um, de facto relationships, which means that, uh, same sex relationships got the same, um, privileges around [00:09:00] housing and other other benefits that, um, straight couples got as well. Um, And for that, we almost sort of preceded marriage equality by 20 years by it almost sort of becoming a non-issue. Some things, our organisation. We've got 14,000 people made up of Army, Navy, Air Force and civilians. Um, and even within that, we have a real mixture of cultures. We have, um, a high proportion [00:09:30] of of Maori. We're gaining a Pacific island. As Asians, we've got all sorts of different religions. And of course, we have our own, um, LGBT community and diversity is seen as a strength within the defence force because it's a a powerful, um, strength when we actually go about doing our business as a defence force Overwatch itself. [00:10:00] We've been set up now for three years, and we see our role as being primarily a peer network. So we support our own, and we support our people through, um, through our Overwatch, um, Internet site through Facebook and through, um, just being out and about within the defence force. Um, we also serve, um, or support a lot of serving parents that actually have LGBT members of the family, whether [00:10:30] they're Children or siblings or even, um, wider members of their of their family. We support command with, um, giving them advice as to how to have that, um, awkward conversation, perhaps with one of their staff members that one of their staff members may have come to them and saying, Well, actually, I've got something to tell you how how we can actually prepare command to actually, um, cope with that and actually be quite, um, prepared and have some, um, [00:11:00] some some good things to say positive things to make it a a pleasurable experience for that for that individual and also for command. And we also, um, provide, um, education to our command as well, by actually explaining what a lot of the terms mean. You know, the the the alphabet, for example. I know there's a lot of people in the room that may be familiar with perhaps one letter of the alphabet. You know, I know what it's like to be a lesbian, but I don't necessarily know what it's like to be gay or trans or intersex. [00:11:30] Um, so we we help sort of break down those barriers by actually sort of explaining those those glossary terms. And, um, it just makes for a better organisation. We have support from the top Chief of Defence Force, the Chiefs of Services. Uh, we've got a new chief people officer who is very supportive of Overwatch and diversity in the defence force chaplaincy. Uh, our principal chaplain is also very supportive of the work that we're [00:12:00] doing as a peer support network. And why do leadership see this as being important? Why is it important to have, um, Overwatch and having a peer support group within the defence force? It's about being authentic. And if you can bring your whole self to your job, then that is only gonna affect That's gonna help with operational effectiveness. I know myself, um, being open [00:12:30] and being who I am, and being able to be authentic at work takes a lot of stress off me. I can just be who I am. If you don't like me, well, that's your problem. But I am there as an individual doing my job, and I can serve openly, and that's tremendous. In my in my books, we've held held a, um, event a couple of years ago called Pride and Defence. And I'm sure some of you in this room have were attended That particular conference. That was the first time that a government department actually held [00:13:00] a, um, a conference that talked about LGBT in the workplace. And we've also, uh, represented the defence force at Pride parades in Auckland. And we've had great response we've had over the last couple of years. We've had at least 100 serving people and also supporters of Overwatch, um, march in the Pride parade. The organisational benefits of having a peer [00:13:30] support network are listed up here. It it breaks down barriers. It it just increases awareness by having um, people within the organisation that support diversity and practise what they preach. It just makes it a a stronger environment. And, of course, within Overwatch, we are there to be role models. Uh, we empower our own and [00:14:00] we also have this sense of community. Um, we're all good friends. And it's the thing with the peer network, too, which I must emphasise, is it crosses all ranks and all services. So, um, not that there's no rank in the military, but it's it's good. It's a good, safe place where we can all be. And if anybody has any questions about Overwatch or the defence force, as I said earlier, come and see us at the desk. Thank you. [00:14:30] Thank you, Leanne. Um, just just a reminder that, uh, there is a curated, um uh, presentation of the Lagan collections happening in the programme room, which is just behind us. It's on at the moment. Probably another 20 minutes to go. But that's not to say to rush off before, um, for our next speaker, who I very rarely get to see before noon at a weekend. Um [00:15:00] uh, Malcolm Malcolm Kennedy Vaughn, Uh, who is representing the Chris We took, uh, memorial. Trust me, if you'd like to come up, please welcome for Mel. Because he's so beautiful. Well, good morning, everybody. It's great to be here And, uh, as, uh, Jack Thank you, babe. It's, uh it's, uh, representing the ska memorial trust. And, uh, I'm gonna digress [00:15:30] about how we actually started the trust in the first place. I'm gonna go back to Silo. Uh, 1989 1991 when we had, um, Caspers around and we had a gay and lesbian dragon boat team. And in order for that dragon boat team to, uh, travel the country and support it and get all the members everywhere. We used to do fundraisers. And we, uh, relied a lot on our, uh, on our girls in the community to, uh, do some show performances for us so we could sell tickets and raise some funds to get this Dragon boat team going. A dearly loved member of, uh, of of our, um, performing [00:16:00] community, um, had had contracted the HIV AD virus. And, uh, for a while there, she stopped performing for us because, uh, due to the virus, she had to have all her teeth removed. The dragon boat sort of team approached her and said, You know, you haven't been doing any shows. I was like, Why not? She said, Well, I can't. I've got no teeth and I can't lip sync with no teeth. So we jumped and said, Well, look, we need to rectify this because we need you on stage because you're a good money spinner for the Dragon Boat team. So the Dragon Boat team, uh, eventually [00:16:30] paid for her teeth so she could get back up on stage, which was absolutely fantastic. Eventually, our dear friend did pass away from HIV and AIDS. A number of our community, um, attended the funeral and I can say to the least, it was quite a sad funeral to attend. Um, it was held in a basement of a house in Newtown in Wellington. Um, a very simple casket, No flowers, not much of a song sheet or anything to go by. Service was short and brief. When we [00:17:00] left the service, the casket was carried out. It was basically thrown onto the back of a two door Mazda rusty utility. And the words we heard were Get rid of it. The whole thing was a Maori transgender and died from HIV. Family did not want to buy it. It was very, very sad. A group of our friends myself, my husband, Scott Kennedy Drew had Kelly Brian Jenkins, all member of the community [00:17:30] stood there and we watched this happen and we said Everybody needs to deserve to die with a bit of dignity. Hence we invented in those days what was known as the Afterlife Memorial Trust. In those days we moved on. Casper had gone. Pound had come along. We still need to raise funds to help with the funeral expenses for people infected with the HIV A. I DS virus to help with prevention. And, uh, we did fundraisers and, uh, all because of this friend of ours. We started [00:18:00] the afterlife Memorial Trust. Most of you will remember the Fabulous from the Evergreen Coffee Lounge in Vivian Street, a strong supporter of the afterlife Memorial Trust. One night of the year, every year, four years, we convinced all the members of our drag community to donate one night of their time. We build up tables of 10. We'd probably have 40 50 60 tables and we sell tickets at 20 bucks a pop and all the girls would donate their [00:18:30] time for a whole night and put on a 2. 5 to 3 hour cabaret show from humble beginnings. That's how we raised our money to support this cause our dear friend Chrissy eventually departed. Um, through, uh, a very, very sad situation. Nothing to do with HIV, of course. But she was a strong supporter of, uh, the memorial trust in her honour. When she passed on, we decided to change the name of the trust to become the memorial [00:19:00] trust, which we have today. We have a select board of directors which work tirelessly and voluntarily to make this happen. Uh, it started many years ago. Most of you will also remember the late great Daniel Fielding. Daniel Fielding was, uh, one of the original members of our board of directors. He lived with his partner, uh, Peter. And when Peter dies, he left the house to Daniel, and [00:19:30] Daniel was allowed to live in the house for as long as he possibly could. And when Daniel eventually passed on, the Peter Trust sold the house through Jackie Grant, who was a member of our board of directors. At the present time, she approached the Peter Memorial Trust and said that Daniel was a staunch member of the community. It would be very nice if, uh, the Peter cut trust could donate some funds to our trust, which they did. And they left us. They they gave us a generous amount of money [00:20:00] which we have invested on term deposit. And we've turned that into, um, a significant amount of money which we can allot to the community on need. It's, uh, so far, 22 funerals the trust has paid for or given cash towards. It's all done on, uh, the situation, how much money the family can afford. How much the trust is willing to put in. It varies on, um, perspective and [00:20:30] circumstances. But 22 funerals so far is what the trust has done. This need to work. This trust needs to survive. We don't know when there is going to be a complete cure. Uh, we don't know what's going to be around the corner next. What may pop up So the funds are always going to be there. The Memorial trust provides funds to relieve hardship due to illness or the death of members of the Wellington [00:21:00] Gay, Lesbian and transgender community. The trust also supports organisations with initiatives with common aims to the trust. If you want to know any more about the trust what the work does and, uh, how you can apply for funding. If you need it, pop around. You can pick up a flyer just around the corner here on the right hand side. Read about the trust. It'll tell you everything you need to know about it and how to apply for funding Should you need it. We need to keep this going and we do it through generosity, support [00:21:30] and by allowing from the Peter Trust to have the money that we've got. It saved us from all those humble beginnings of doing all of those hard, hard fundraisers which the community strongly supported. Help us to keep this going. Have a look, grab one of our flyers and support something fantastic in memory of this amazing woman. Thank you for your time. [00:22:00] If if you, um, are having trouble hearing the speakers, please feel free to come forward. There's there's plenty of seats here, and I think it's probably better if we if we, um adjust ourselves in terms of what we're wanting to hear. Rather than try and tell a bunch of queers to quiet down because that's that's well, well, let's just not even go there. Um, I'd like to introduce Pat McIntosh from the glamour phones. Uh um, Pat's [00:22:30] here. Pat is is an is an alto soprano. What were you before you were you? I can't remember where you Pat sings amazingly, um, and is is going to be talking about the glamour phones and singing out in Wellington. Everybody. First of all, I thought we'd start this off. We get a little [00:23:00] bit, um, together on this first of all, who loves music? OK, so that's who can sing. Everybody can sing. Yes. Come on. OK, so we've got, um we've got ourselves split already to the people that would love to come and listen to us and the ones that are thinking Maybe they'd like to come and sing with us. OK, um the glamour phones Boy, do we have fun? We are. Are you probably [00:23:30] Oh, who knows about the glamour phones? Has anyone seen us? Who's seen us? OK, so we've got room for improvement on that one. OK, so we are the Wellington inclusive LGBT Q I choir. Ok, you got that? So basically we welcome anybody. You don't have to be able to read music That is the key thing that will put people off coming and joining the glamour phones. You can come along and listen and see if you enjoy. We have [00:24:00] open rehearsals. And if you say these guys are crazy, I want to come and sing music with them. You're in OK, What? We started in 2007 as the homophones. Uh and then what happened? I told you we're a bit crazy. OK, so and then And then what happened was, um in the Asia Games in 2011, the girls said, Come on, we want to get involved. So the girls joined. And as you can see, we have a diverse of a diverse [00:24:30] amount of age and sexes that come along and sing together and have lots of fun. That's from our zoo concert. Uh, last year. So what we like to do our tagline is singing out in Wellington and we where do we get out? We like to, um, go and sing in different community events or, um or sing, um, in a specific place that will align with the theme of the music that we've chosen for that semester. Um, Saint Andrews is our home. OK, we love [00:25:00] Saint Andrews. They look after us. We're there every Thursday from 6. 30 to 8. 30. That's our rehearsal time. So if you want to come along and have a listen come along, pop along, Say hello. We have open rehearsals, Um, and then you can try out, Um, but that's probably got one of the best acoustics in Wellington, and we love it there. Um, and once a year, we'll go and sing somewhere else. But, uh, Saint Andrews is is our home, Um, our musical director. We had, um our last musical director [00:25:30] was with us for seven years. So that tells you how how great we must be. She's put up with us for seven years. She has since just moved on. And we've got a new musical director Rachel Hyde. Now, Rachel, amazing. She's come over from the UK. She's, um, been with, um, uh, lead symphony orchestras over in the UK. She's been with the, um, NZSO. Um, as, um I can't see. So she's been as something doing with them for six years, and, uh, now she's decided to join the glams and be our musical [00:26:00] director. So we're going from strength to strength. And Rachel has put an amazing sort of, um, vibe that's come into the choir on on what we will be, what we sing and how we learn. And, um, it's just a wonderful experience to be under her conductor ship. OK, so that's the zoo. Now, this is how crazy it gets. We performed at the Wellington Zoo last year with animal themes. We had a dancing beer. Uh, that's one of our our our women in In the soup. [00:26:30] We've been to Dublin. We've been to various voices. It was the first time they actually went overseas. So a contingent of 20 plus went over to Dublin and sang at the World Choir Festival in Dublin. So Munich is in 2018, and we've got our sights set on trying to get a group over to that. Um, this is our last concert, the movies, uh, movie themes. So we sang lovely movie themes at Saint Andrews, and we had a blast. OK, Um, yeah, that's how that's [00:27:00] how silly we get. Um, this is we every every year we have a glamp, which is we go out glamping It's a weekend of work shopping. We have lots of fun. We all get dressed up and be silly, but in amongst that, we learn our songs for the next upcoming concert. So it's a very social, um organisation. There's the guys will split off into, Um, sometimes the guys will sing a song and the woman will sing another song. So there's, um, four part harmony. [00:27:30] You can't You can't beat singing together as, um I think that's that's the major thing about the Glams is Have we got no Oh is when you get a group of mates or people that you get on with and you join together singing a song that you love in four part harmony and have all the socialness buzzing around you. Um, it's It's a pleasure to be part of this organisation. OK, [00:28:00] that's from one of our glamping nights. So glamour phones, we welcome you. If you want to come and sing with us, look us up on the website. It's glamour phones dot org dot NZ. We have a Facebook page that you can, uh, you can go on to, um, with the glamour phones we so you can follow us by that You can, um that's if you're keen on singing Now the other group If you want to come and see and hear and be be stunned [00:28:30] by the glamour phone sound on the 11th of October, our next concert will be on a national coming out day. So we're gonna embrace that day and do two concerts and sing gay anthems. So we'll have the mirror ball, the lighting, the a V, all the bling, and we will be singing. Um, yeah, it'll be gorgeous. OK, so tickets are available on the website, you can reserve a ticket or, um, it's gonna be limited seating. I think it's about 1 90 seats. So, really, if you want to come and [00:29:00] see this concert, please reserve yourself a ticket. I don't think you'll get one at the door. OK, next year we have confirmed we will be doing a Jack's lingering. We will be doing 1/30 anniversary concert in June, so keep your eyes out for that with lots of lovely Avi and historical images behind us. So, um, just keep an eye out for the glam and come along and see our concert in four weeks time. Thank you very much. [00:29:30] And And one of the lovely things I like about the glams having joined it myself is, um is the soprano section stunning? Um, and that, uh, the open rehearsal means says that actually means there's no auditions. Um, so that was another, you know, attraction for me. No judgement there, but somehow we make amazing noise. And that's, [00:30:00] um, all due to our musical director. And I think the commitment of all of us to actually turn up and which is, um, probably 50 of us on a on a really good night. So, yeah, that's great. Um, our next speaker before we head into the panel discussion is, um well, two speakers and they're from the the youth organisation, uh, inside out. And I'm pretty sure you would have read something over the year about the, um, the honours that have been awarded [00:30:30] to tabby bes and for her work in setting up this group. Uh, and if, um and she brings with her today Bella Simpson as well. So is Bella with you today? Yeah. Oh, hi, Bella. Yeah. So if we can give a really warm round of applause to these stunning young people. Everyone, um, I'm Tabby, and this is Bella. So we're [00:31:00] from inside out. Um, inside out is a national organisation. Um, and our main aim is working to support young people all across a, um in schools and communities to try and make those safe environments. Um, we know that young people in our community are at really high risk facing mental health challenges, Um, and often being bullied at school and having quite a hard time. So our work is about trying to change that, um, and make New Zealand a safer place for all of them. Um, so we started off, um, in Nelson. I [00:31:30] went to a high school. Um, that was the first in the Asia Pacific region that we know of to have a queer straight alliance group. Um, which was just Yeah, it meant so much to me when I was kind of figuring out my sexuality and coming out, um, to have that in my school, saying that who I was was OK, um, and kind of providing that support, which I guess, yeah, made it easier for me to come out a lot earlier and kind of accept myself. Um, this is a photo of us planting a diversity tree. Um, in our school, um, we started to get students from all [00:32:00] of the other schools in Nelson wanting to come and, um join our school because it was known as a safer place. Um, for queer and trans students, Um, which was nice. But that's not, I guess, realistic. You can't have all the queer students in one school, and every school needs to be safe. So we started to support, um, young people in Nelson to set up groups in their schools as well. Um, and we then went on to set up key youth, which is a community, um, organisation with a drop-in centre now on Trafalgar Street. Um, that runs after school, um, programmes similar to schools out and transform [00:32:30] in Wellington Um, which is really awesome for the young people who want a place outside of school to meet as well. Um, And then we saw the kind of the effects that that group was having in Nelson and that we were getting lots of requests for people on how to set up these groups in their schools and other parts of the country. Um, so we set up, um, as a national organisation when I moved to Wellington, Um, shout out to because, um, the intersex trust was incredibly, um, supportive of us when we first started umbrella us, um, to set [00:33:00] up as a charity. Um, and those are some pictures from one of our who, um, that we ran at in Wellington. Um, and now, yeah, we changed our name to inside out at the start of this year, and I kind of rebranded and looking at what are the gaps? Um, for young people in our community and what kind of things that we might want to do in the future? I don't know what's happened. Um, all right, um, so one of our campaigns, as supposed to up there just before is the day of silence. So that's a national campaign in [00:33:30] high schools, um, where students don't speak for the day. And it represents the silence that lots of young people in our community go through about their identity because of bullying. Um, and the campaign is all about raising that awareness. Um, and then working with schools and students together to kind of put an end to homophobic biphobic and transphobic bullying and really stop that in their school. So that might be through setting up a group in a school. Um, might be looking at their policies. Um, what options they have for, um, gender neutral uniforms and bathrooms and a whole array of other things. Um, yeah. [00:34:00] Bella is going to talk to you a bit about some of the projects that we're working on at the moment and coming up. So this year, we had, uh, chef, which was a national where a whole lot of young people came together at, and we just had a really great time. This is all of us. As the volunteers, we did some great workshops and they learned a whole lot. We then took that, um, in a smaller model and we went to and we did it with a small group there with some of the people who had come to the national one, which was really exciting. And [00:34:30] then some of our upcoming projects are at the moment. We're working on resources, So one of them is how to set up a QS a in your school, and the other one is for how schools can, um, be safer. More including and supportive for gender diverse youth. So there are a few of the things we're working on, and we're also starting a radio show in the next month or so. So that's sort of in its very early stages, but it's something quite exciting that we're starting. It will be with Wellington access radio. Um, I think on Thursday at four. [00:35:00] Yeah. Yeah. It'll be on our Facebook page when it starts up. Yeah. And then, um, one thing that we do always struggle with is funding. So we're selling chocolate bars today. They trade aid, fair trade, and the total is 50. So if you're hungry, you should go and buy a couple. It would be really helpful. Thank you. Um, and also in October. Watch out. We've got a, um, kind of slam poetry performance fundraiser at Meow on October 22nd. Um, so it'll be awesome to have people come along and support um, that with [00:35:30] yeah, Rainbow Labour are helping organise that for us. And there's gonna be, um yeah, all the proceeds to inside out to help us with the work we're doing. Um, one of the other projects we're working on at the moment is a group, um, in Wellington that supports the local student leaders of Quest Alliance groups. Um, so that's a chance for them to come together once a month and get, um, kind of peer support and training from us. Um, and some of us who have kind of been in those roles and know how. Yeah, that can be quite a responsibility in school to be leading a group like that. Especially when you've got I think, Especially when you're one of a few [00:36:00] out people in a school, and you've got all these other people coming to you for support. So it's a way of us trying to provide that, um, yeah, support for them as well. Um, awesome. Come chat to us. You can sign up for our newsletter on our website. Um, buy chocolate. Thank you. Thank you. So the afternoon session mic session is about [00:36:30] to begin. Um, the first, um, presentation will be from, uh, Rainbow, Tim Wellington and different strokes. So if I could ask, uh, Frank and Virginia to come along and we'll get that session started. Thanks, Kevin. Um, Virginia? Um, I'm representing. Thanks. do. I'm representing Rainbow Team Wellington or Tim Wellington for short. And the aim [00:37:00] of Rainbow Team Wellington is to support attendants at out games and gay games events. The idea is to get queer locals to give a sport a go. Try it out. Why not, um, perhaps give you a goal for, um, to keep your training as well to attend one of those events and do your best and most importantly, to connect with others in your community as well. So that's the whole idea. If you've been to an out games or a gay Games event, you know that it's gorgeous [00:37:30] when everybody travels as a group and you clear up a city and that's what we're about. So I'm gonna hand it over to Frank. He's gonna tell you a little bit about different strokes. Wellington. It's one of the groups that we're helping to support. OK, uh, thank you, Virginia. Oh, there we go. Thank you, Virginia. Um, yes. As I said, my name is Frank. I'm representing different strokes. Wellington, the swimming club for, uh, DL BT community and our straight allies. And [00:38:00] I just like to echo what? Uh, Virginia just said that, um, the the purpose of the group is to build community and, um and, uh, and help you and and, uh, as as a a social organisation to build community and learn to swim and have fun with it. And we're open to all swimmers, whether it's your first time in the pool or you're an advanced swimmer, and we have sessions Monday through Thursday evenings and starting at We're right at Thornton pool now, but starting at the end of October, [00:38:30] we will be in the newly refurbished Kilburn pool. Our current coach is Gareth Keane. He represented New Zealand in the 2012 Olympics, and he's also a silver medalist from the 2010 Commonwealth Games. So we're really honoured to have him as our coach. And he's an excellent coach for both advanced swimmers and even beginners. We have our sessions involve two lanes, so we have a fast lane and a beginner lane so you can swim in whatever lane you feel is most comfortable. Um, what was next? Oh, yes. So we charge $8. 50 [00:39:00] for each session. And this helps, uh, pay for the cost of Gareth coaching and the lane fees But you could also get a 10 trip card for $75. We also have a student and community card service holder fee of just $4 per session. And, um, and to join us, you can just contact us via email or Facebook or just turn up at one of our sessions. We'd love to see you. OK, thank you. [00:39:30] Well, these things go really quick. It's really good. But I just wanted to reiterate, in terms of sports, there are other sports clubs around as well. Badminton, Um, running, bowling, temp and bowling. Same sex dancing. You name it if it's not there now start it. So yeah. So the next, um, group that we have is, uh, Alan Faet from Lilac. [00:40:00] OK, I'm speaking about your Friendly Neighbourhood lesbian library in Wellington. It's open right now and will be until two o'clock this afternoon. A bit of history. Uh, 1993. Linda Evans. Uh, put a call on lesbian radio late in the year. Um, any women interested in forming a lesbian library in Wellington? A meeting at the YWC A where else and all the usual [00:40:30] suspects turned out a whole bunch of librarians and other interested in women interested women. And we decided, Yes, we can do a lesbian library. And we spent 10 months planning ang processing, fundraising, ang over premises, shopping, cataloguing books, collecting shelves. And then in 17th of September 1994 we opened. And yeah, we are still here in 2015, which is not bad. [00:41:00] And when we opened collections, a modest 470 books, some new, some donated now over 2600 plus some magazines and newsletters. Now there's only glossy magazines from overseas. We had videos for a number of years, and then people stopped watching videos. And now we have DVD S, and you can see that there has not been exceptional, uh, inflation and our annual subscription rate subscription organisation, [00:41:30] pay an annual sub and then borrow and borrow and borrow and moving right on. As a thoroughly modern organisation, we have a website which is nowadays optimised also for mobile handheld, which is everyone is using. And on the website we have an online catalogue and two flavours. This the flashy, glossy one for the wide screens and this boring or title lists. And there's also a full [00:42:00] text page which links to full text lesbian text on the Internet. Uh, that was one of my winter projects this year to upgrade that, but it hasn't happened, but we can. There's also membership information. You can download a membership form and do online banking to pay the sub. What more could you want? And, of course, is also on Facebook. Yay! I have 600 members on our Facebook page. Thank you, Mary, for keeping it bubbling over. And we have a Twitter account [00:42:30] which I don't know much about, because I only log onto Twitter once a year now. In the course of our life, Lila has had five different homes, which is not bad for bottom feeding organisation when it comes to rents. And the collective over the years has become extremely adept at setting up. And this shows our set up at 2009 and our last second to last premises, where we in one day, went into a bed room with this mountain of cartons [00:43:00] in the middle of it and put up the shelves and shelved the books and then demolished all the home baking. Nowadays, our current room is so flash, we call it the Lounge, and we don't just run a lending library. We have events. Pat Rosie are launching a book, A Secret celebrity Visit, which we couldn't advertise to the general lesbian community from Alison earlier, a monthly book club and uplifting speakers coming [00:43:30] in to address us. That's one woman in the military, which is not very clear. Three lesbians and a Trans woman came in and panel discussion events for fun and fundraising. We party any time the drop of a hat. We've had a quiz night there where we jam 36 women and 16 card tables into the room speed dating the late Pauline Simmons started that at We Do Speed, dating one at the Lesbian, her story archives in New York. That [00:44:00] organisation can do speed. Dating Lila can do speed dating, too, and we also had some drag kings in for a show and tell session, and Lila is also out and about in the community. We have been fundraising at the Gay and Lesbian Fair since 1994 6 months before we opened, and this year we were also in the Love Parade and we give thanks to our wonderful benefactors, [00:44:30] the Armstrong and Arthur Charitable Trust for lesbians, our patron say better to be. Thank you, Armstrong and Arthur. That's the lesbian library. If you're a lesbian, we've got a table down the back. You can come and look at some of our collection we brought along and you can pick up a membership form and a free fridge magnet. Any questions? I drop a new point. Thank you, Ellen and the Lilac [00:45:00] Library and lounge. Um, before I introduce the next group just a couple of key messages, uh, always, uh, opens their arms to new friends. Uh, so people who want to be part of a support network to the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand um, go along to our gas desk and and register There is a fee you can find out more there. I'm just a good news person. So the next group that, [00:45:30] uh, is going to be spoken about is the Lesbian Overland Walking Group and come along and talk to us about that. Um, I came back to Wellington in 1990 after being in Auckland and walking with hikes and Lesbian over Landers and Coffee Club was already in existence. So only Allen, who's just been [00:46:00] on being our historian, will tell you when it started. But, um, anyway, it's a walking group meets every month on Sundays. It's been going for ever. Um, I got conned to coordinating, um, some years ago now, but basically it runs on the energy of any woman who sort of wants to run a walk on a Sunday can, Um, just, you know, put one up and we'll all pile along and do it. There's actually a walk tomorrow, 10 [00:46:30] o'clock meet at Wellington Railway Station. Um, and it's a beach cleanup out at and you come to the railway station and we that's our usual meeting place. So it's sort of spot a dike at sort of, um, 50 paces anywhere around the railway station, but, uh, it's usually at the front pedestrian entrance if you're looking for us. But otherwise you just have to go around and ask a whole lot of women if they're looking for a lesbian walking group and you get some really interesting responses used to ask for, [00:47:00] uh, anyone looking for die Cos. When I was new from Auckland, but I realised a lot of Dutch people get really confused. And, um, we got some unexpected people on walks, but, um so, um uh, and the walks, um it's good if you do a little bit of walking. If people ring me and say, Well, what do I have to do to join the group? You don't have to do a damn thing, but it would be probably good if you walk from here to the railway station and back and check. You can do it without having to sit down. Uh, but otherwise [00:47:30] the walks are are are really friendly, and no one minds how slow we go because we just gossip more and, um and it's really good networking. We get a, um, because the way to find the groups is on Ellen's lesbian Wellington website. We get a lot of women that are new to Wellington and a lot of coming out women. So it's sort of we either have a long lunch break so that people can do their coming out and we can share our coming out stories or whatever they want or need, Um uh, or we walk [00:48:00] really slowly. So don't don't not come because you're a slow walker, we'll accommodate that. Or you'll find, um, on the website when the walks described, uh, we'll tell you if it's gonna be strictly uphill, and you know you can make your own choice. So what else can I tell you? Uh, so it's 10 o'clock Wellington Railway Station once a month on Sundays. Um, there's usually a meeting place, say, at at the railway station as well, or the women sometimes share. Um, [00:48:30] the walks are usually three or four hours, but that's not solid walking. And, um, there's always a coffee stop at the end. That's how we got the name. So sometimes it's quite a challenge, uh, like to find to make sure there's a cafe at the end of the walk. But, you know, so that's an advanced skill. When you've been coming on walks for a while is to find one that or find the cafe closest to the end of your walk. Um, we also join with various, um, other lesbian communities. [00:49:00] So, uh, like, there's a woman in that, um, has a national sort of website. And so when we do the torero crossing over a weekend, she organises that and we just put it up on, um, on the lesbian Wellington site. And, um, we also organise weekends away Sometimes, uh, we've had, um a weekend down at the pinnacles in the staying at one of the dock lodges and another weekend in a dock lodge, [00:49:30] uh, over in the, um uh, which was really great. Um, what else can I tell you? So you do come along if you even don't. Don't worry about getting too fit. First, uh, we'll we'll encourage you. Um um, but just come along and we welcome. Welcome new people all the time. And tomorrow it's so and And Ellen is usually the second Sunday, second Sunday of the month. [00:50:00] And Ellen not only puts the walk up, but she'll, um, check all the details. So if if I put up a walk and it's lambing season and you can't actually walk where I've said, she'll tell me in heaps of times so I can change it, So yeah, I look forward to seeing you. Well, some of you, but hi. Oh, it's really loud. Oh, my God. How I gather around, Gather around. Auntie [00:50:30] is talking. Whatever you're talking about, you can talk about it later. How I come on this seats I don't know if there's enough seats. Anyway, Now that I've got your attention, I love attention. I have, like, attention deficit disorder like I don't ever get enough attention. I like this microphone. It's loud. Come on, people, Come to the front I see you there You're breaking my heart Don't break my heart Don't break Auntie's heart [00:51:00] I forgot to put my mascara on It's in my thing And if anyone is allergic to the smell of nail polish you should probably let me know Because I'll be putting that on too. Yeah, so we got the the kind of general movement forward Sound guy, If you turn it down, I just speak louder to the microphone. It's true. So welcome everybody to the National Library for History Show and tell, um, I'm not really sure why we're doing it, but I do know if we don't record our history, no one else will. Yeah, that's right. Um and we're [00:51:30] a kind of funny community because I don't have little drag queen babies. Um, I'm actually barren. It's tragic. It was. I'm as baron as Mars and actually they lost one of the Mars rovers on me. That's actually what happened to it. I was like, What the hell? I thought it was like a giant pubic life, but it was, um, Discovery, like, get off bad. OK, well, that's probably as many people as I can realistically hope to lure to the front. So, um, we, uh, welcome you to the open mic session. [00:52:00] Um, so, first of all, uh, representing outtakes. A real queer film festival, which has been an institution, I think, in Wellington for maybe 10 years at least. Um is, uh, Simon Fulton? Yeah. Come on, Simon. Yeah, I'm from the Outtakes Film Festival, which, uh, actually started 20 years ago here in Wellington in 1995. But it has been a nationwide event Up until this [00:52:30] year, you might have noticed because we didn't go ahead with the festival this year. Um, so the main reason for that is money. Uh, we Our festival last year left us with a loss, and we sort of need to have funds in place after each festival in order to seed the following year's festival. So we're here today really? To, um, find out what the community want from us. Do they still want outtakes? Because we are keen to bring back a a smaller festival [00:53:00] next year, perhaps a few films over a long weekend and maybe some, uh, fundraising screenings leading up to them. But we're really open to hearing everyone's ideas. And we're really open to hearing from anyone who wants to get involved with us and help, uh, keep the festival alive. If indeed you want it to stay alive because it does cost, like it costs up to $200,000 every year to run the outtakes festival. Most of that is from the box office. It it funds itself. And then there's some generous funders and [00:53:30] sponsors who who leave us with the the seed money to go ahead each year. But, um, we just couldn't do it this year. We would have just got more into debt, so, um, I don't really know. Oh, you got the info up there, so, yeah, we'd like to hear from anybody. Just what? What? What do you want to see from the festival? Do you still want it? What sort of format would you like it to be in do you want to help out? Um, because we're we're just open to all sorts of ideas at the moment. Um, one thing that [00:54:00] I will say is the biggest year we ever had was 2003, so that's quite a long time ago. That was the biggest number of tickets we ever sold was over 10 years ago, and ticket sales have been down ever since. Of course, that was a day and age when people didn't download films so much they weren't sitting at home looking at things on their laptops. So I don't know if that's part of it or whether people just get enough queer images from other sources. General movies, TV. Maybe they don't feel like they need a community event to go out and see images on the big screen. But, [00:54:30] you know, we want to know. We want all the feedback. And if anyone would like to join our group and and help some sort of festival continue, we'd love to hear from you. OK, we're gonna set up a give a little page too. Aren't we given? Is that set up? No, It will be set up soon, and we've got a mailing list around there. If you don't hear anything from us, please join the mailing list, because you will soon. Thank you. Um, actually, I Hi, everyone. Hi. That was great. We could play, like, talk show. You know that game. Like we've all watched morning television, [00:55:00] you know, with instant coffee and a Rothman that you promise you wouldn't have again. Um, so if anyone wants to Kind of what? What was the question you had for the audience? Well or anything. I'd like to know what what people want from the festival. What sort of format of festival do they want? A big two week festival like we've been doing for 20 years. Or would a smaller thing or a separate fundraising events at different months throughout the year? We We just want to hear everybody's ideas of what they would like to see us do, because we can't go ahead with the format. So, um, shall I run out into the audience? [00:55:30] Can we can play talk show? Oh, well, And Tony is your too cool for school. We we've got a stall around the corner. Just come and talk to us there and and just give us all your ideas and and you got Yeah. OK, cool. Hi. What's your name? Hi. My name is Kathleen. Hi, Kathleen. And where have you joined us from today? Um, I'm from schools out or outer spaces. I'm from outer space. Oh, my God, that's amazing. And I tell that to my psychiatrist, which is how I get the really good pills. [00:56:00] So what was your question? Um, now, forgotten it? Um, no. So schools out. Sorry. I hold this, um, schools out is, um, a youth support group. Um, and basically, we'd love to see, um, if the festival does come back this year, which I really hope it does, um, more youth focused films or, like, youth friendly films and events and, like, I'm personally quite keen to help make that happen. Um, so my focus would probably be on, like if we had more youth films, we would bring a group of 40 [00:56:30] kids to come and see those films. Um, so by youth films, you you mean ones that have a general rating not restricted, which is very difficult. We're trying to find films based on sexuality, which are PG, um, which I have a like we do film screenings, often for our young people, but it's very hard to source that content. Um, so I'd be I'd be happy to help source that content and then have a way to screen it. And then I think we could bring the young people. So that's a very particular demographic. But just so you guys know, I'd be keen to help with that. Yeah. Um, definitely. [00:57:00] It sounds great. Oh, thank you. It's hard to know in advance what rating a film is gonna get. You know, you can be excited about a film and book it and then find it gets a restricted rating a few weeks before you. You want to screen it, but sounds good. Does anyone else want to play Rachel Ray? Look, it's like those little cards that they always hold. What is on Oprah's card? I don't know, but she's got them. Anyone else with them? OK, we'll give a warm round of thanks to Simon. [00:57:30] I'm sorry. I haven't had the requisite number of fat whites this morning to be useful. This one's a lot louder. Yeah. OK, so, um, coming up next, we've got Emma Kelly Who's going to be talking about the biography of Jonathan Dennis? Uh and she Well, someone is. It's written on this piece of paper. The director of the New Zealand Film Archives. [00:58:00] Oh, look at camera. Hey, do you wanna take my photo again? Does anyone want to come up for a selfie? Oh, you do? Come on. Come on, girl, come up. Have a selfie with and the microphone. It's the attention my mother so cruelly denied me. Excellent. I I spent the last last six years working on, um, one project. It's the biography [00:58:30] of Jonathan Dennis, and he's well known for founding the New Zealand Film Archive In 1969. Jonathan was 16. He just moved to Wellington with his family, and he wrote to the secretary of the Homosexual Law Reform Society. And he said, I'd like to join your society. I'd like to support your movement. I'm not gay, but I want to support your society. And the secretary of the Homosexual Law Reform Society was actually kind of freaked out by the letter because it was from a 16 year old [00:59:00] boy and he thought, Well, are we gonna get in trouble if we invite a 16 year old boy to our meeting, so he said, You can come, but you have to bring a chaperone. So Jonathan Dennis is a 16 year old would come along to Law Reform Society meetings, and he'd bring his dad with him. So in Jonathan's family, he never really had to come out. He simply was himself. Uh, and his family always supported him when he decided in the seventies he was going overseas to Europe with his two boyfriends at the time, Seth Townsend and, [00:59:30] uh, F Hendrix. They all moved into Jonathan's parents' house in Central Terrace. They had AAA water bed big enough for the three of them, and apparently in the 19 seventies, water beds in New Zealand were quite exotic. So they were a pretty flash couple, the three of them in their little water bed. Jonathan Dennis helped found the New Zealand Film Archive. He was the founding director in 1981 so the same year as the Springbok tour. Unlike John Key, Jonathan Dennis can remember that he did support, um, the [01:00:00] protests against the Springbok tour. So he was involved in the marches there, Um, Jonathan Dennis and the film archive have always been involved in creative work. So even though the film archive started as the New Zealand Film Archive and based on a very European North American tradition to begin with, it quickly realised that actually the joy of the content, um in in the archive was a lot of Maori material. So there's a 1929 film called [01:00:30] The Devil's Pit, and it starred a woman called Harris, who was from, and Jonathan met her in 1982. He said, We've got this old film we think you might have starred in it Is this you? And she said, Oh yeah, that's me. And from then on, she became the of the New Zealand Film Archive. By the time Jonathan left the film archive in 1990 it was Guy, which is the guardians of treasured images of light. Today it's [01:01:00] sound and vision because it incorporates the television, the sound and the film archives if we can flick along a little. Jonathan was a a great lover of, uh, films. Elizabeth Taylor was one of his favourites. His mother hated her, but she loved uh, he loved her a lot and Lily and a silent film star, was also another of his favourite actresses. Jonathan was in an early theatre group in, uh, [01:01:30] Wellington called Amos. Uh, Paul Monda came out of that, as did Sam. Neil. Jonathan's big sister just gave me some photos for the first time on the weekend, showing those guys in the 19 seventies um, doing publicity for one of their films, which was on 51 The waterfront strike. If we can keep moving along here is the first, uh, uh, version of the film archive and keep moving along. Uh, Jonathan realised that he could take the films all around the country and [01:02:00] get interest for them. So they started by going up the Wanganui River because they had. They had these early ethnographic films by Elston Best. And they found that the communities there responded quite differently than sort of formal, um, European type, uh, film festival crowds who would be quite quiet and, um respectful in a particular kind of way of the images they were seeing when you went out into onto people like that, Are you so and so? And there would be a different kind of conversation about who was in these images. And what [01:02:30] Jonathan and the film archive realised was the expertise of these particular films was actually out on and out in communities. So they began to communicate and cooperate more. They became a bicultural archive, which has a 50 50 Maori board, which has been very important to, uh, the way the archives developed over time. And this is Hawaii. This is Barry Barkley, a very important New Zealand filmmaker with Harris the of the archive and Jonathan Dennis in 1987. [01:03:00] If we carry on, uh, Jonathan was involved in enormous, uh, New Zealand film exhibitions in Italy. Uh, one of them was at, uh uh, and I've written a book on Jonathan Dennis, and it's being launched this year at that festival, Uh, in the north of Italy. This is Jonathan interviewing Tim. Uh uh uh, he was He was an early, uh, filmmaker from New Zealand. In the silent time, they're moving into the sound time He actually [01:03:30] made his own sound film cameras. Uh, Jonathan, I think one of these awards actually has Gareth Watkin's name on it. Jonathan worked for years and years with Gareth Watkins. Who's here from pride NZ dot com, and he's recording this event today. They did a lot of creative work together because Jonathan began to do, uh, radio shows called the Film Show, which are quite well known, um, on concert and national radio, and they also created soundscapes. So one of the amazing ones he did with Elizabeth Ally was called a day without art [01:04:00] and that, uh, linked in with the International Day without Art to and commemorate people with HIV a ID who were involved in the arts and what happened to them. Um, and they did this great soundscape that was a finalist at the New York, uh, radio awards. Uh, Jonathan and Jan Bay ringer created film in a New Zealand. There were 22 different versions of this because it was so popular. And it brought together a lot of different thinkers like Leonie Pham, Peter Wells and other people [01:04:30] talking about film. OK, silent migration was, uh, I think probably the project Jonathan was perhaps most proud of he worked on for 10 years with Patricia Grace and rams. This, uh uh was the oral History project, which became a book project about, uh young Maori club and, uh, their their passage over time. Oh, it's disappeared. That's OK. It's being a bit slow. I'm trying to remember, uh, which the next one is [01:05:00] in, uh, 2001. Jonathan was dying of cancer, and he had a great network of friends and family who wanted to help him die at home. And at that time, their their mate, Peter Wells, the filmmaker, came down and he wanted to create a portrait of Jonathan's really amazing house, which was behind Kent on Edge Hill. It was very colourful. It had a lot of lovely objects in it. Uh, when when Peter Wells got to, uh uh, if you just keep moving on, Here we go. Here's a still from the film. When Peter [01:05:30] Wells got to the house, he found Harris the of the archive, and Jonathan's best friend was with him in the house, and this film then became a portrait of their friendship. Hence, the film was called Friendship as the Harbour of Joy, Um, and it played at the film festival, and I was an image archivist at the New Zealand Herald in 2004 when this film came out, and that was the first time I'd ever heard of Jonathan. Dennis. And I thought, Oh, he looks really interesting. I want to read that book about him and there wasn't one. So I got talked into doing a PhD which [01:06:00] has now turned into a book. So, um, on the 23rd of September at 5. 30 sound a vision. That book is going to be, um, launched. So anyone is very welcome to come along. If you RSVP me for an invitation, you can come for free to the, uh, screening of the only film Johnny Jonathan ever made about Ted that, um, silent filmmaker Mouth mouth wide open that he made in 1988. Um, the the overall theme of of the book is really [01:06:30] this conversation about the notion of the archive as a biography of a nation. Can it be who gets to decide what's included and excluded in the archive? And I think that's been a really a big theme of today who gets to decide what is remembered and what is forgotten. Um, and I've got postcards which are pictures of Jonathan's house from the time just before he died, they're sitting there for free on the round table at the back. If you want to help yourself to any, uh, I think that's it. Thank you very much. [01:07:00] 11 more tiny thing. This is actually a plug for somebody else's book. Matt Cook just came to New Zealand from London, and he's written this amazing book called Queer Domesticity. And he looks at the last 120 years of queer homemaking in London. And I think that's a great example of creating one's own space. It's not just, um, on the street, but also in the home and how people have done that. And it's an absolutely beautiful book, and you might want to have a look at it. Thanks. [01:07:30] Hi, everyone. Hey, um, thank you very much. I want to say Emily, is that right? I'm really Emma. I'm really bad with names, Emily, You know, as long as I don't call the wrong name out in the heat of passion, I think we'll be all right. Um, yeah, I feel like this, um, needs a little It's actually it's actually, um a fake from the from the Turkish bazaar. My friend Rose picked it up from me. So it says versa or something [01:08:00] on it, but it's not. Really? See, that's much nicer. Isn't that nicer? Yeah. No, I can't read my notes. Yeah, that's not really working. Um, so coming up next to someone very dear friend of mine who gave me some very confused grown up feelings when I was a younger drag queen, Um, the Bishop, the bishop made me very confused. The bishop was so sexy, and I had feelings that I thought I [01:08:30] wouldn't have about a bishop. Not since the incident. Anyway, So, um, organiser of the Pala Fantabulosa event, which has been running for a long time. Are you gonna talk to that? I said, Oh, you should come up there and get me off the microphone. Otherwise, I'll keep going. Give it up for a Jack. It's a cardinal, not a bishop. Um, so OK, this [01:09:00] is gonna be two presentations really quickly squeezed into one. So firstly, uh, the Taos, um, group. Uh, OK. There is a historical basis to that group. Being set up was it's in its sixth year. It's, um we've It's a social group. It's very inclusive. Anyone who is allowed into a bar can come to it and we go to different bars each month, so it serves a sort of social networking purpose [01:09:30] as well. Um, the idea for it came about because a number of lesbian bars had been set up over the last 20 or so years, which had sort of there was outrage in our bar and and then maybe a couple of others, and they they did their time. And then they tended to fold quite unceremoniously, and people ended up having to go to Australia for various reasons for a while to get over it before they came [01:10:00] back. Um, so was set up as a way for, uh for people who didn't necessarily want to be going to the gay bars and wanted to see some of the other bars around town and and to network and socialise and so on. And my main aim is to pretty much stop another lesbian bar being opened and seeing people crash and burn. So I know it sounds really weird, but that's what I'm after. Anyway. It's proving successful 40 50 people [01:10:30] turn up each time and and we have a lot of fun. Um, and we do some small fundraising at each event for, um for transform as as part of a contribution there. The other thing that I want to talk about is, um, homosexual law reform commemorations next year And, uh, that just to keep encouraging groups, individuals, um, organisations to really think about becoming part of those commemorations and part of a calendar [01:11:00] next year so that we can really celebrate what has been achieved and also think about what still needs to happen in terms of, um, in terms of rights and where we're going as Rainbow Communities. There's a Facebook page called HLR 2016 Wellington 30th anniversary, and that's that's to try and keep people in the loop around what is happening. There's no organising group as such, but hopefully we can get a calendar going where people can see their various events [01:11:30] during the year. And I know out in the park is coming in with that theme of, um HLR 30 next year. So I'm I'm gonna be really fast there. Yeah, OK, thank you. Yeah. Thanks, Jack. Um, so coming up next, we've got, uh, Kathleen Winter. And are we in the audience? Oh, hey, Hey, come up, Come up to the stage. Um, and they're speaking for a variety of groups. [01:12:00] Um, outer spaces like myself transform schools out social fruits and, uh, naming New Zealand. And we actually have a second microphone there as well, if one of you or you want to share this one? So a big round of applause for Kathleen and Van. Ok. Hi, everyone. Um, my name is Kathleen. I'm from outer Spaces. Um, which is our new umbrella organisation, Um, which is an umbrella for four youth [01:12:30] focused organisations, Um, which are schools out transform, naming New Zealand and social fruits. Um, and my co-host I'm and I'm the new transform coordinator. And also in naming New Zealand. So we're gonna, like, back and forth a little bit and just do a quick summary of each group, and we'll definitely keep to eight minutes. So take it away. OK, First group is transform. It's been around for about eight years, and [01:13:00] we've been holding fortnightly support groups every yeah, every two weeks in Wellington. It's mostly for, um, trans youth. Um gender queer youth non-binary youth. Uh, we also have social events which have been running on and off like we've been doing, uh, coffee visits and shop trips. And we booked out Kilburn pool, uh, over summer last year, which was really, really cool. Um, we've been also been making online resources such as our stories and what we wish. Like our GPS. And our nurses actually knew about what it's like to be a transgender youth in Wellington at the moment. [01:13:30] Um, and the last thing that we're doing at the moment is we're doing a survey of all the transgender youth trying to get their experiences and their opinions about what Wellington needs to change and to improve their quality of life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, uh, the next group that we represent is schools out. Um, schools out has been around for ages. I think it's like 17 years. I think next year we might be 18. I may have made that up, but it's a pretty good excuse for a party. Um, so schools that is a social slash support [01:14:00] group for, um, queer and trans young people usually, um, school age. So, teenagers, we get the cool teens. Um, we run support groups every single week here in Wellington and also in lower hut. Um, we do holiday activities. Um, we've done a sleepover. We do a lot of movie days and stuff like that, trying to show a queer cinema and doing discussions. Um, we've got a little zine at our table that the youth made. We made badges. We do a lot of cool, crafty stuff. Um, yeah, we've also there's a new group up [01:14:30] in called Project Youth, which is kind of doing the same thing, but for their region. And we've been doing some linking with them and bringing the young people down, Um, once a term to hang out. So that's quite cool. Bringing our groups together, um, Also schools out has, uh, often does gender and sexuality education in schools. They go to do one or two lessons just to try and broaden that curriculum, which at the moment tends to be quite limited. Um, and the next thing on the horizon is next year, in honour of the, [01:15:00] um, 30 years, homosexual law reform and also our 18th birthday is we're hoping to do a queer and trans youth ball. Um, which we're very early in our planning, and I think we've literally just agreed with inside out that we'll do it together so we'll try and make that as big an event as we can. Black ties and stuff. But anyway, that's us. Yeah, and the next group is a really new group. It's called Naming New Zealand, and that's a collaboration with, uh, me at Kathleen as well. Yep. Uh, Kate from, uh, amazing [01:15:30] Kate and Rosie from law. And the idea is that we're fundraising to help transgender, gender diverse and intersex youth update their identity documents because it might be for a lot of people, like, easy to raise, you know, 100 and $50 to change your name or whatever, but if you're a transgender youth, it's incredibly difficult. So we've been fundraising to get, um, the funds to help, uh, these transgender and gender queer, uh, gender nonconforming youth update their identity documents. We've also been making, uh, identity resources online. How to do it yourself, um, [01:16:00] and connecting youth with community law. And right now we're just focused on Wellington. But we've got big plans to go nationwide. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're not done yet. Um, the final group that we have is social fruits, which is a social group for, um, queer and trans young people who are over 18. So, like you're not that young, but you still consider yourself young. Then you probably [01:16:30] belong in that group. Um, they kind of hang out in places that aren't bars. It's kind of an alternative to the bar scene because they find a lot of, um, our queer young people leave our groups and they don't really know where to find other queer people outside of like Ivy. So we try and make other spaces for that. So it's just a social group. They hang out, they eat a lot of pizza, Um, watch queer films and go out for dinner a lot. Um, at the moment, it's quite an active Facebook group that you can join, um, where a lot of people post like [01:17:00] flat flatmate wanted ads. So if you guys are looking for queer accommodation, then that's the group for you. Um, I think that's, uh, one. Last thing is that if you're interested in helping out with name New Zealand, we have a fundraising movie event, uh, in October and we are selling tickets up at our little table. Thank you. Hey, thank you very much. That sounds amazing. [01:17:30] Amazing. I wish that stuff was around when I was growing up in. Yeah, Um, so I don't really know what's happening next because Gavin Gavin help! Someone knows gay lines. Next. Yeah, a little little word of my who's speaking for gay line. Is it you? You, John, should come to the microphone. Oh, the magic of live television people. It's amazing. Give it up for John Who? Well, [01:18:00] it's a bit of an act to follow. My subject is probably relatively boring. Completely that. But anyway, um, I represent gay line. We're just a website. Uh, those those Sometimes, uh, we act as a conduit for funds from the rule foundation. Our our website's got about 500 listings on it now, um, and they are listings of gay [01:18:30] and gay friendly organisations nationwide. And each, um, listing is a way for, uh, people to contact, uh, those lists either through web links or email. We also have a number of gay themed, um, articles, which, um, of particular interest, obviously to gay people. And most of those have the ability for people to put their own comments [01:19:00] and discussion at the end of the article and there's quite a lot of really interesting discussions starting there. We see the website as an educational resource and it's also basically an overview of what's happening in New Zealand's gay world. All of the content is youth friendly, that is, it's suitable for young people to use and for schools to use. One of the new things that we're starting [01:19:30] to do on that website is to run AdWords Google ad words uh, campaigns for lists and they result in quite considerable increases of in traffic to their websites. OK, it's also a shared website platform in that numbers of different organisations can use the same infrastructure with their own independent websites connecting to the same database [01:20:00] of information, so any information they create for their website can be shared with the other websites or not. As you wish. It provides for people to create Web pages without any, uh, web skills because as long as you can operate a word processor, you can do it. It provides for various levels of publishing, um authority, like people can create, [01:20:30] edit, publish or administrate depending on their role within the website and that that prevents stuff created by people who might want to cause trouble from actually getting into the public arena. Yeah, we also provide for, um, listeners to take control of their own Web pages and edit those as they wish to. [01:21:00] On top of all that, it's a website that has an infrastructure that allows people to develop their own independent websites. That and they can share information between those websites. It does mean that people who create Web pages create them once for sharing between numbers of websites. So you're not getting a lot of different people trying to create the same information and keep it up to date. [01:21:30] Anybody who's tried to do that over a period of time will know how difficult it is to keep Web pages up to date. This hopefully makes it a lot easier, but the in the infrastructure is more than that. It's a way of maintaining a website so that, um, what you see is what you get. So whatever, you [01:22:00] don't actually have to have any website skills to create and publish information. Bye. At the moment, it's It's very, um, restricted. We're sharing information with outline in Auckland, outline um are using that information on our website that's independent but used for their telephone counselling services. But they are also, um, keeping [01:22:30] Web listings up to date, and those updates are reflected on the gay website as well. Now, one of the most interesting things that we've started doing recently is Google ad words campaigns. We've got a budget from Google of about 20,000 USA month, and at the moment we're only spending 5000. Um so we can run [01:23:00] special campaigns using that process for anybody who's listed on our website so that anybody searching on Google can be presented with a an ad which links to their listing on our website. And so that increases the traffic to not only our website but to individual pages, uh, and then on to people's own websites. If they if people click through, [01:23:30] we're we're running, uh, several campaigns at the moment. Um, dance NZ is one organisation that's doing that. They we actually run two campaigns for them, one's an international one and one's a New Zealand one. The New Zealand one presents their information just to New Zealand users. The International one presents their information to Australian users. Google Edwards is actually sending [01:24:00] about 4000 visitors a month to our site and our ads. Google ads are being shown about half a million times a month. We are getting about 100 and 50 to 200 visitors a day, viewing nearly 7000 pages a month on the website, so the numbers are starting to go up and it's becoming a substantial resource. If some of you have listings [01:24:30] on our website, you'd be very, very welcome to talk to us about increasing your involvement, having doing your own editing and maybe going even further. So get in touch with us and and let us know what your needs might be based on what you've just heard. One of the things that we are struggling with at the moment is volunteer resources. We're very severely limited in what we do by the number of people [01:25:00] who are involved. If anybody has got an interest in in website technology and would like to join us, please get in touch. But one thing that our website is doing is potentially reducing the amount of effort that people have to do to create and maintain their own websites. if anybody interested in any of those sorts of things, please get in touch now, Ultimately, um, we plan to hand this infrastructure over [01:25:30] to those who are using it to run it themselves. It's not something that gay want to keep long term. It's something that I would love to hand over to an organisation of users. So, um, ultimately, hopefully a new organisation will be set up to do that. Thank you for listening. If there are any questions, uh, I'll be around for a little while. Thank you. [01:26:00] Great. Thank you. Um, that was John from, um, gay line. I remember, uh, and I grew up in, which is a small town in the Waikato. And before I became a bearded space lady who lives on a space station, I was, in fact, a pa gay homosexual. I know it's hard to believe. Um, and I was maybe 12 when I kind of realised that, you know, probably men were turning me on and that that I might be gay, and that might be a huge problem, because [01:26:30] this was, like 1989 and there were no role models in the media. The only people you ever heard about that were gay was someone's kind of uncle that they didn't really talk about. And you were pretty sure that you were going to get your head smashed. And if anyone found out, um, when I was 16, I remember seeing an advert in the Waikato Times, um, for gay line, which was free and confidential advice for gay men. And it was just gay men then because it was, I don't know, it was a different world, and, um, they ran from [01:27:00] 8 30 to 10 30 on Wednesday nights. And I remember calling that phone number for the first time and kind of making that first connection with the Queer World. I guess I'm sharing this because I was sitting there and thinking about the enormous changes that have happened in my lifetime. In terms of queer visibility, I never, ever, ever, ever in a million years would have imagined that I'd be standing here dressed in drag in the National Library of New Zealand and casually wandering around Wellington without actually worrying about my physical safety. So, um, [01:27:30] you know, we've come a long way, and I was at a book launch last night um, where someone made the very salient point that just because we have come a long way doesn't mean we shouldn't still tell our stories. So I I'm really glad to be, um, kind of part of today. Oh, my God. Look at how serious. I am serious. I'm like, leaning over. So So, um, coming up next, we've got some representatives from, um te Papa, the Museum of New Zealand. Um, we've got Lynette Townsend and Step [01:28:00] Gibson. Who are the history curators, Um, at te papa. So if you'd like to come and come up to the podium, please, that would be great to give a warm, warm welcome, please. OK, Yeah, I'm Lynette, and this is Steve. And, um, yes, we're history curators at the Papa. Um, and part of our role as history curators is to build the collections, Um, and to try [01:28:30] and make sure that we've got objects that, um, represent a whole diverse range of stories that, um, for all New Zealanders. Um, and one of the things that we've been wanting to do over Well, it's sort of been over 15 years now that we've been wanting to build the collection to have, um, you know, queer histories, representations of a whole range of gay lesbian, um, transgender stories that are objects that can represent those stories in the collection. So today, what we'd [01:29:00] really like to do is show you a bit of a range of the objects that we've got in the collection and some of the and share with you some of the stories and some of the, um the stories behind those. So, um, Carmen doesn't really need any introduction, but, um, we've got, um, a wonderful range of objects relating to Carmen. Some that, um she, um we acquired directly from her, and more recently, she's made a selection of a whole lot of garments. Um, that [01:29:30] ended up coming into our collection. And incidentally, next week, um, we are opening a, um, we've got a small display of some of those objects. Go, um, that are gonna be up. So, um, it's really great that we'll be able to get them out there. Um, this is one of the headdresses that will be going on display. Um, obvious a lot of the, um, objects that come into our collection of those kind of big, vibrant kind of performance type things. So they are the sort of things that people think that we might be interested in seeing. [01:30:00] And quite often that's the sort of thing that, um, gets put on display in museums. And it's fair to say that that is, um, quite a large proportion of our collection. Um, this headdresses, um, headdress belonged to Frank L. He was less a lesser known kind of, um, drag performer than Carmen. But, um, he he made all his own outfits, and this was one of the dresses, so they're really, um, quite fun, Quite vibrant. But, um, a really [01:30:30] significant part of our collection. Um um, more recently, we acquired some, um, performance. Where from Paul Jen who? Um, choreographed, um, performed in and, um, made costumes for fairy stories. And they were really wonderful. Kind of, um, there was a series of shows where Paul cleverly took, um, Children's fairy stories and gave them a bit [01:31:00] of a queer twist. Um, and so we acquired some ephemera and costumes that he had made. Yeah, the top twins. These dolls, um, they've been in our collection for a while, actually. And they, um, are two of the top twins kind of characters that they developed Camp leader and camp Mother. Um and, um, but what's what's really important about some of these objects is not just what they are but the stories that they carry [01:31:30] with them. And, of course, the top twins. It was really important for them to be visible and proud of their sexual identity. And, um, finally, sort of in this suite of objects, Um, this is AAA that belonged to Chris. Um, we've collected a range of her personal items, but also, um, one of the things that we're doing here today is showing a range of the Evergreen Cafe, um, collaged panels that Chrissy made. [01:32:00] And, um, we've got about 34 of those in our collection, and they're a wonderful sort of snapshot of, um, time they start actually from the 19 sixties and go right through to, um, the two thousands. And they, uh, yeah, a wonderful, um, sort of Chrissy's kind of take on the community. And there's lots of people, lots of personalities, lots of stories behind those panels. And, um, we would love to kind of gather up, um, those stories [01:32:30] and identify people. I'm Stephanie. So the objects we've been showing you are from our history collections, but thank you. Other departments of Papa collect queer history and identity also. So the work you're seeing here is from the art collection. And that's a work by um, and where she's exploring her identity. And we've collected quite a lot from this [01:33:00] artist. Can you please? In our Pacific collections, we've collected some of, uh uh, New Zealand's designers and their fashion works. This is by James, and it was, uh, a part of the Pacifica style, um, competition in 2006, and he's basically taken very sort of common garden lover lover material and turned it into quite an extravagant ballgown. Now, Linda, also represented [01:33:30] in the collection and another designer, and we actually commissioned her to create this piece for the Papa in honour of the, uh, big wedding show we had two years ago called Unveiled from the Victorian Albert Museum. And Linda created this tapa wedding dress for us, and that really speaks to her identity. And at the other end of the scale, we also collect everyday clothing, particularly t-shirts, which are great identity carriers. Um, they're fantastic billboards for political [01:34:00] messaging and also for Coop of Popular Culture. And these came from the wardrobe of a gay man in the 19 nineties who lived in Australia for a while. So it's an Australian t-shirt again that that that that nice sort of coop of popular culture icons in a local very, uh, a local variation of a slogan that was slightly notorious and has been embedded into Wellington life. And we also collect performance, [01:34:30] uh, dance culture. So the Devotion Festival Very successful Dance festival in the nineties in Wellington, we have some lovely handmade pieces and some of the clothing worn to the 1997 devotion. And you can see, of course, you're seeing who wore them and the gift line there. Neil Anderson. Um, we've got a tiny bit of hero material, but not much. Um, we've got a very small holdings around the homosexual law reform campaign in the eighties. We would love to have more material that's very ephemeral, [01:35:00] and batches are some of our smallest objects we collect. But we have quite a significant batch collection, and they tell a really rich story. 01 of our large, probably our largest collection are the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt. We have the 16 blocks that were made, and they are a very treasured for us. They came in 2011, and we're very, very, very proud to be caring for them. Um, we [01:35:30] also have a growing collection of, uh, safe sex material culture and objects around sexual health. That this toolbox from the nineties from the New Zealand AIDS Foundation came via Dame Margaret Sparrow. And she's a wonderful, um, sexual health advocate. And we've got a display of hers on at the moment at Papa on level four, and it features quite a bit of safe sex material. So another angle on our collecting has been [01:36:00] sort of around, um, sports events. Thank you. Um, and, um, we we are hoping to collect sort of an all black outfit, you know, from a gay all black. But we haven't quite got there yet. Um, but what we do have is, um, a range of material relating to the, um, Asia Pacific Out games. And this was a medal that was awarded, um, that was given to everybody for the, um, for participating in the games. Um, [01:36:30] and you know so as well as things like metal. Sometimes you have, like, was saying very ephemera ephemeral. Or this was a plastic drink bottle that was a giveaway. So the games were all about, um, bringing together people from all over the world as, um sports as well as, um, dance and, um, performance. And but it's really about participation. Um, and solidarity, Um, and it was at the Asia [01:37:00] Pacific Out games that we sort of did a bit of a show, and until then and we asked people, What what else do we need in the collection? What else should we be getting? And some people came forward and said, What about the Amazon softball team? So from that point, we went out and we ended up collecting, um, some of the, um the uniforms and a range of other material relating to the Amazons, which were a lesbian softball team. So we we we actively collect and we [01:37:30] are totally open to people's ideas and donations. So it's a mixture of both. So in terms of active collecting with the marriage equality campaign, uh, I actually went to the to to, uh, Louisa Wall. The MP to see what she might have. And of course, a lot of that. The pain was online, so there wasn't that much material culture, but she had a few pieces that we collected. This is just a tiny little tattoo transfer, so it's about as small as you can get. It's nothing like that big. And then, of course, to Papa hosted one of the first weddings [01:38:00] after the Marriage Equality Act went through on the 19th of August 2013. Is that right? And one of the first weddings that day, Uh, we collected the programmes from it, so yeah, so it's just trying to find ways to materialise those stories, those important events. And I'm literally out in the streets, peeling things off walls. This is one of my souvenirs, but I I'm always on the lookout for a material culture that's really strong, visually strong, with really important messaging, and I think posts like this are perfect. [01:38:30] So if anybody has any ideas, any directions we should be taking, we really want to talk to you because, as you can see from some of the credit lines, we really rely on people in the community to help us collect. Yeah, well, I have been Yeah, I have been Yeah. Thank you. Great. Um, [01:39:00] that was, uh, thank you very much to Lynette Townsend and Stephanie Gibson from TE Papa. Um, they are history curators. Thank you very much. Now, I've I've often thought that Oh, God damn talk our problems. There we go. That's better. Um, I should just come down and check myself in as a national treasure, so I'll see you later, but don't stick me down in the vault. I don't want to end up pinned on a board like a butterfly. You know, just get me fed and watered and nothing bad will happen. Um, yeah. So coming [01:39:30] up next. Hi. It's money. Mitchell. Who's money? Thanks. She's yelling it out. I've got I've got my Rachel Ray cards now, so we're back on, uh, morning television. Hi, Kay. Hey, girl. How are you doing? It's kind of funny, because it's such a small town, like I know most. Everybody here. Maybe, um, money is here to talk, uh, for the intersex Trust of New Zealand. So, um, please, uh, give a warm welcome. [01:40:00] Um, just sitting here with a head full of memories and triggers, and I want to thank for organising today. Um, we don't do this enough, and you look around here and this is an extraordinary community and I feel very proud to be part of it. [01:40:30] So I'm here representing the intersex Trust. Next year is our two decade anniversary. So when I first started putting my own Jigsaw together, I was 40 years old and I had found some documents after my mother had died because it's it's hard to believe now, but in that period of time, I didn't [01:41:00] even have a word to describe myself. So I went to see a doctor rodenberg wonderful rodenberg and stole from the medical library for me to use. We returned it a medical textbook, and it was called intersex, and that's where I first found the word that became my identity myself. But reading a medical pathologize textbook is a strange [01:41:30] way of finding out who you are. So I was extraordinarily lucky to be in communication with an organisation that started in America, the Intersex Asia Society of North America, and I went in 1996 to the world's first ever gathering of intersex people. So there were nine Americans and myself representing the world. I [01:42:00] was the only non-american, and I came back to New Zealand determined to set up an organisation. And we did, Um, I want to acknowledge and honour Graham Brand Wells, who's sitting in the audience today. Um, Graham was my one of my first trust board members, and he's here today, so we've been going for 20 years now. My ancestry on my dad's [01:42:30] side is Scottish, and I'm a crazy collector. I don't throw things away, but I don't like it. I put it in boxes. And three years ago, Graham turned that absolute chaos of the last 18 years, and we now have a catalogued, organised collection. Some of the material is around our table and just hearing the last session, we absolutely have some treasures that probably should [01:43:00] be into. So just taking a step backwards, what is into sex and why should we be even in the group or these presentations today? So intersex people are people who are born with non-standard physical bodies that are someone has decided and not fully male or fully female prior to the 19 fifties. It's very interesting people who [01:43:30] were born. What was in those days called hermaphrodite and the Victorian era were routinely assigned male because the thinking was that if somebody may possibly be male, it was considered inappropriate to deny them the rights and privileges of Maleness. Interesting. And then, in the 19 fifties, we had our own John money who, um, whose [01:44:00] thinking and theories went on to radically reform, inform the medical model that is unchanged. And that medical model believed that everybody needed a gender assigned to them, that it needed to be male or female. There was no sense that it might be anything else, and he managed to convince medicine that you needed a physically congruent body. Now I believe that thinking came [01:44:30] out of his work with the transgender community, but it became so ingrained into the medical narrative that you have to have this normalised body, and so that's when we start performing genital normalising surgery. I think we've worked and we've got the I and the alphabet soup. I don't know that many people really understand the issues behind the eye. We have it. [01:45:00] The sadness to me is with all the success that we have had in the last two decades. We have yet to change the medical model, so it's very likely that this week or within the last month a baby somewhere in New Zealand has had genital surgery to normalise them. So there's a bit more work to do. Um, I'm not going to go through our history here today. It would take too long. We will be doing presentations [01:45:30] next year and they're celebrating our two decades and and we will run you through our amazing history. A couple of things I do want to talk about. In the very early days, I had a conversation with Rose because I was trying to find out what perhaps the Maori way of looking at intersex might have been. And Rose said to me, [01:46:00] Yeah, intersex reality was very well known in traditional Maori culture and the birth of an intersex child. And it wasn't intersex, of course, was considered a Tonga that the child had been sent to teach us something, not what it was. This child was a gift that had been sent to the community to teach us something, and I and I've often thought if only we could bring that way of looking at difference, [01:46:30] that way of being with difference for all parents around. All this issues celebrate you have this extraordinary child who's different. This is something wonderful that the other thing that is being very powerful and moving for me has been watching a narrative around Non-binary start to emerge. When I first came out, there was nothing and I I remember my [01:47:00] very crude early trying to talk to friends. And I used to say, You know, if you have a cup of tea and you had black tea like the black teas there, I was trying to describe that as being my female side of myself and you poured milk in. You sort of have milk and you have both and it's mixed up and, you know, it was very crude and and it was a a rough way of trying to talk about something. Now that is just wonderfully language and layered and complex. [01:47:30] So I I honour the young people who have done that and bringing these narratives forward. So I think that's probably enough from me today, I, I really want to say to Wellington, thank you because you have held me. There's lots of people in this room that have done that. This is at times been quite lonely work. There are other intersex people in the room today. I'm not going to name them, but I'm going to honour you [01:48:00] and and thank you. We've come a long way, but there's a lot more work to do. So to my friends, to this community, Thank you so much. We're just a little bit of a change in our order of proceedings here. We, um don't run away, Alan. We need you. Just stay where I can see you. Um, [01:48:30] but, um, Kevin has, uh, some things to say. Um, I just want to, uh, say and to honour all those really people who are who are quite world famous from our community here in Wellington. Um, uh, but the thing I want to talk to you about now is I'm just going to introduce two gentlemen to you, two of them that are probably not strangers to many people. [01:49:00] And that's, uh, de Smith and John Jo. If you'd like to come up, uh, Des and John, Um, and the reason why I wanted to to have a chat with them was because they are about to donate a collection to to. And I thought, What a great opportunity to to have a chat about that and to let people know what they've [01:49:30] what they've considered and why they're why they're doing that So somehow, Or rather, we're gonna I've asked those questions. I've given them two minutes to think about a response, and we'll see how we go from there. Uh oh, yeah, yeah. Uh, cleaning our house. Believe it or not, we do clean occasionally came across some, uh, an album of photos from the 10th Gay Lesbian Fair. And amazing. I didn't realise that we had such an event. Then we had what we called [01:50:00] the newspaper men. People dressed as if they were had newspapers. Yeah, costumes on stilt walkers, Uh, the Duchess and Duke and Duchess of Wellington. Anyway, these photos are great. And the idea give them to lay because we're not young, Unfortunately, And, uh, something happened to us. Where did the photos go in the bin. And I think [01:50:30] it's better that we give them to the archives. And so I might just try and clean a little bit more around the house to see what else we've got. Yeah, John, I'll let you. You can have a say now, as Des says, we have been involved in gay politics for quite a number of years. I was actually a member of the board at one stage, [01:51:00] and I have, I think, a slight appreciation of just how important our history is. One of the things that has worried me in the past is that often our history is hidden and it doesn't need to be. We need to be out there, we need to be out front and visible. And we have over the years amassed, uh, papers. Documents of one sort or another quite a bit is already in the archives. Um, [01:51:30] but we need, as Des says, to do a little bit more, clearing out, tidying up my understanding. And I don't know, Kevin. Whether this is still true is that the Lesbian Gay Archives of New Zealand is the largest archives of its sort in the Southern Hemisphere. If not the world. Does that sound right? Well, let let's say it's right. I I'm sure I'm sure it's right, but it's It's an astonishing collection, and you know there are, You know, I. I [01:52:00] saw the badges in the other room. They see the ephemera are important. The the things that we take for granted, the little pride badges, the rainbow badges, the caps. These are all part and part of our history because somebody went to a lot of trouble to design the firm. I wouldn't this make a lovely flag? You know who who wants to? Yeah. And, uh, you know, grandchildren making rainbow scarves for Yeah, But importantly, we do need [01:52:30] to have a resource that remembers and preserves our history. And this is where I think comes up trumps. And I would like to urge everybody to sort of scour their memories and see what they might have in the house from past events that they've been involved in because we may think, Oh, Gans will have that. But it's not necessarily true. And if they have, it might be a piece of paper that that's a bit tatty, and you might have a better copy of something. [01:53:00] So please support Ray games. I think it's a very important institution. Thank you, Kelly. I don't know if you want the paper I found Phil Parkinson put out when they said, Oh, homosexuality wasn't in the animal world. Anyway, Phil did a very good article on gay pets, and, uh, you just might want that article as well. But I'm sure this is in the archives, and, uh, we still have copies of it. And every time we get a Salvation Army envelope in our letterbox for a donation, [01:53:30] we post them a copy of gay pets. Thank you, dear Smith and John. OK. Hey, thanks, boys. That's great. Um, yeah. So one of the things I've always wanted to be, uh, is a announcer on national radio. Basically. So I'm gonna do my national radio voice. Um, you're [01:54:00] at with the open mic session at National Library. Coming up next. Allen, who will be speaking for lesbian Wellington website Digital archive. I'm Nasha Web Redfern up next in mid service Web forecast till midnight tonight. Thank you, Honey. You're all right. Good again. Uh, I have down the back a an overview on my laptop of 20 years of Wellington lesbian [01:54:30] Web page website which provides a history of what's been going and diary of what's been going on in the local lesbian community over that period, all sorts of things you'd hoped you'd forgotten, right? And it is also a history of the evolution of capabilities of Web pages of websites. How did it begin? Uh, well, in the beginning, when the World Wide Web was still practically a toddler in 1995 I discovered American [01:55:00] Queer Resources Directory website, which had a link to Queer Resources, a TR directory, which had hardly any content. So I fired off an email to mark profit and Auckland, who created the website and said, Would you like a Wellington lesbian page? And he promptly fired me back a page template and an address for uploading the page and the rest, they say History. The first page went live in November 1995 and that's a an image of how it would have looked [01:55:30] in Mozilla, which was the hot Web browser at that time. Except you would only have seen a little bit of it because it was on a 6 40 by 4 60 monitor with humongous pixels, and by 1996 I was in my compulsive, obsessive manner digit, uh, archiving all of the updated Web pages and now I have an amazing archive with thousands of Web pages, and over the years, what you can do in a Web page has evolved. The rendering [01:56:00] engines and browsers have improved. The coding standards have changed out of sight so that far more things can be done. And by August 2002, instead of just a page, I had lots of pages because by then we had the Web, Web domain, lesbian dot net dot NZ, and it was a subdomain wellington dot lesbian dot net dot NZ. There was a home page. There was a what on for lesbians. There was a Web links page. Eventually I got [01:56:30] pages for dudes and lesbian line, and then they both died a year or two later. And there were pages for occasional events and campaigns. There was anyone remember the lesbian land proposal every time there was a ball that would be paid for that, and on it went. But I got a bit muddled as I started adding more notices for events in the General Queer Community and the home page in the event there's been events. Page got a bit [01:57:00] muddled. So then I created, um, a Rainbow Page a page for Rainbow Activities which I still have. And I tend to segregate the Lesbian Events Page and the Rainbow Page nowadays. And I also added a page for the Lesbian Radio Programme which has links to the audio files of the last five weeks, uh, programmes. And then the latest change improvement has been [01:57:30] last month. 50% of the New Zealand based people who accessed the access the website were using phones. So we have to make our websites mobile friendly, mobile friendly, which is an angst process. And if you're running a queer website, you've got to do it. And I'm willing to provide help of page templates if you want it. And this is the current version of the Rainbow Page, which advertises the hot event of [01:58:00] the week. And the home page nowadays has a table at the top, which lists the events and the Rainbow page and events and the lesbian page, and highlighting which ones are on in the coming week. I'll update that tomorrow. So we get on to this joys and perils of digital archiving. Why did I save all these pages? Well, because I'm a compulsive [01:58:30] obsessive individual. Someone's got to do it. And there's now hundreds of megabytes, thousands of pages of updates all the time. This This week, I've updated the home page twice. The lesbian events page twice the Rainbow page four times, the radio page once and the links page once, uh, other people have a life archiving. It's got more complex. But anyway, one thing I do is back up. Back up, back up, back up. [01:59:00] I back up on USB sticks. I invest in new sticks every couple of years because magnetic media die. I keep two copies at home and one copy off site, and Fiona and I swap once a month. Why do that? Because some little rat snipe will come in. Carry the number of people in this country who writers who have lost their laptop and their backup USB, which was plugged into it and lost several years work. [01:59:30] You keep the USB stick back up in the back of your sock drawer, some similar place, not the Grundy draw, because some sorts of murders might be interested in that. But you have to back up, back up, back up and with your backup files, whether it's Web pages or photos or whatever. You never modify those. If you want to something for putting on Facebook, you make a copy into your sandpit folder and you play with it there and then use it. [02:00:00] OK, Anyone wants to talk about digital archiving? I'd love to talk to you, and we can get together and nut out how we ought to be doing these things. Thank you very much. Thank you, Alan. Um, yeah. So I kind of started life this kind of drag incarnation in 2002 because I had a corporate job. This relates to digital archiving little, you know, um, story a little vignette [02:00:30] from my past because I've got the microphone. Hm? Yes. Um, I was in this corporate job. I was bought out of my brains. It was right after the dot com collapse, and it wasn't really that much work to do. And so I made, uh, quis increasing your leisure time on a Geo Cities account, which was a kind of terrible free web hosting service that forced you to have advertising for kind of horoscopes and finding brides from countries that ended in a [02:01:00] um yeah, and so That's kind of how how it all started, actually, last night I launched, uh, the latest revision of lasha dot com. So I encourage everyone to go and have a look. Those, um, Google analytics, basically, is what I based myself worth on. Right? I know. I go on there. I'm like, Oh, my God. How many people visited? I'm gonna have to take some more antidepressants. Um, I'm only slightly joking, [02:01:30] and that's a sad thing. OK, so, um, coming up next is, uh Do we have a a Velda vein? Velda, I'm probably butchering the pronunciation of your name. Sorry. Velda Velda speaking for the Armstrong and Arthur Charitable Trust for Lesbians. Um, we're just having a little moment with the technology there. Just throw it out the window. Honestly, a four load PC paper buffering all of those hateful, [02:02:00] hateful things you see on the computer screen. The Spiner, when you really want to watch you on demand and you're sure that telecom has oversold your broadband service? But what can you do? Nothing. Really nothing. Just go to the freezer and eat some more ice cream. Even though the doctor said you had high cholesterol and you never learned good coping mechanisms when you were young because you had a dysfunctional family and you were abusing Chemical. What? Are we ready? Hey, warm, warm. Welcome for [02:02:30] right. Um, this is near the end of the day. So, uh, I want to do things a little bit differently. I don't want to talk about the Armstrong and Arthur Charitable trust for lesbians. It's actually too long a word. And I'm going to talk about and be, um, instead. Just a little brief history. How two ordinary women, seemingly or ordinary women, became gay [02:03:00] and lesbian icons. Margaret Elizabeth McCready. Armstrong was born in 19 09, and Beatrice Arthur was born in 1915. So immediately, we're talking about early last century and they met in 1943 during World War Two and began a long relationship of 57 years. [02:03:30] Bet was a legal secretary and be was a nurse. And when they met, BET was actually living with her mother and, uh, eventually move be moved into the household. And I just want to say that, uh, at the time, it was actually very difficult for unmarried, unrelated women to live together because there were two things. It wasn't socially sanctioned. [02:04:00] I mean, women were meant to marry men. And, um, economically, it was very hard because women didn't earn the income of males. And, um, even if they had capital and wanted to buy a house, they needed a male guarantor. And this, uh, situation continued, I think, until the early sixties, but anyway and began a relationship. And [02:04:30] we found out later that they actually were quite well known in the gay community. They were members of the Wellington Victoria Club. Um, some of you will have been there, and, um, and they made good friends with other members. Uh, men and women. They are also known for their hospitality. Um, at the kalla home, [02:05:00] uh, they entertained a lot of people. And the trust, the A N a trust actually has a recipe box. Um, that probably be annotated more about what was served to whom and when. And, um, this is going to be a project for the A N. A trust to, uh, produce some of these recipes. Um, someone suggested [02:05:30] today maybe bring a cake along to the next event. Um, they were very keen on gardening and um, and trees. And, uh, they established, um, a lovely garden in Kalla and the cover of our pamphlet. And I haven't got, um, a copy di digitised. But, um, show in 1950 B and B clearing their section. And when they [02:06:00] moved, uh, when they bought a house in, uh, a beach house in, they also had a lovely garden there, too. And the image there is from, uh, the 2009, uh, exhibition and sale of be and be, um, paintings and prints and particularly bet was quite an accomplished painter. Uh, be less so, but some of the, uh, some of the images, um, [02:06:30] reveal a little bit about their lives. They like to travel around New Zealand, and sometimes they paint scenes that they were fond of, uh, or flowers. Um, we've got the presentation running on one of the laptops there. And the other thing they liked, um, were animals, particularly pets. And, um, also supporters of animal rights. Uh, [02:07:00] they supported Wellington Zoo. And there's quite a quirky, uh, sketch of an elephant that I'm actually quite fond of. Um, but, uh, as I say, they they had a lot of hobbies. Bet was also an accomplished pianist, and, um, they were fond of ballroom dancing, too. And so this seemingly closet couple, um, moved into the seventies through into the eighties, [02:07:30] um, and the time of the last and successful homosexual law reform and lobbied behind the scenes because they never until the end actually became declare themselves publicly. But they lobbied behind the scenes and, um even, uh, rang up the, uh, Roman Catholic Church hierarchy to criticise uh, the church's stance. [02:08:00] So when reform was passed, like many men and women, they finally found the freedom and the power to come out publicly and declare their relationship. And this was quite amazing, because by now, uh, be at least was in her seventies. And, uh, I think be was either late sixties or early seventies. [02:08:30] And the other thing they did was embrace younger members, uh, or and more activist members of the Wellington lesbian communities. And actually, I didn't know bit. Armstrong, Um, some of the other trustees knew and be much better than I did, But, um, I knew the Arthur a little better, and I remember seeing them [02:09:00] when they first came to one of the lesbian dancers. And I thought because I was in my thirties, I thought, Who are these old women, but actually standing up here now? I think, Well, I'm getting up there, too. Well, Bet died in 2000, the year 2000 at 91 and B in 2002 at 89. [02:09:30] And so they both lived a good age. Uh, B, with the help of, um, Alison Laurie and Jan Gryphon set up the, um, strong Arthur Charitable Trust for lesbians to acknowledge this 57 year old relationship, but also to acknowledge the Wellington lesbian communities who'd, uh, befriended them. And this year, 1919. 15, um, 2015, [02:10:00] uh, is a special year for the A N a trust because, uh, it's the Arthur's Centenary. And to commemorate this, we are going to have a special, uh, lesbian radio programme on the 13th of December. Um, hopefully to play in part of an interview with be and some of the music that they liked and just to give tribute. [02:10:30] Thank you. Well, thanks, Alan. Things you didn't know about. Um was it kandala? Did you say kandala? One of the K neighbourhoods. You know, KKKKK. What? No, I love those white women. I see them down at the supermarket. I love them. I love my girls. And my house is the pesto. Darling, is that good? Um [02:11:00] OK, so I think I'm a stand up comedian, and no one's laughing coming up. Uh, next we've got, um uh, Kevin, actually, Kevin and Karen, Kevin and Karen. Um, you're both on the same name card. I don't know what's going on. Kevin speaking for and lovely Karen is speaking for so, um, to the podium. Oh, yeah. [02:11:30] Uh, so and I are just gonna have a little discussion about, um and but I will speak. First of all about was a group. If you were here at the start of the, um, today's event, uh, helped to open the event. So it's a a community group of, uh, Wellington. Hey, uh, [02:12:00] get together on a regular basis and every Monday night, uh, at the New Zealand prostitutes' collective And the purpose we get together so that we can get together. Really? That's all it's about? It's pretty simple. We have a big feed, which is always a good reason to get together and we sing some songs. But it's, uh it's not just exclusively about about music, Uh, and about eating. We also have interests, uh, politically, in terms of how we're involved in the community, [02:12:30] uh, here in in Wellington and to make our presence known because was formed in 2001, uh, in response to Team Wellington who got together and were preparing to get together to go to the Gay Games in Sydney in 2002. So, um, formed, uh, as a Maori collective within that group, uh, again, just to show, [02:13:00] uh, the diversity within the Wellington community of the way that we express ourselves et cetera, et cetera. So that's pretty much what is about. Um, it's an expression of, uh of or, I guess, to understand the word. It's a It's a term that some Maori use in preference to saying gay or lesbian because it identifies their sexuality and culture. [02:13:30] Let's see, that's a difference. So is at that intersection of, uh, culture community et cetera. Hm. Very good. That was 101. I'll have a test after this and see how we go. Um, but Karen was a bit shy. So she said, I said to Karen, Why don't I just ask you what is about and you can respond. There we go. So and I start started in 2010, [02:14:00] and it's for our Maori trans community here in Wellington. Um, we do lots of networking and education. Um, every month I go to the police college in and I speak to all the new recruits, each one. So the next one is happening. Set. Sorry. Monday, Um, we also have run a magazine called So it's a bi monthly easing. Um, and you can get it online. Um, if you see [02:14:30] down there and write your name down if you want to go on the mailing list. And I think one of the important things about so what? What's in? Um, so it's about keeping our memories life, Um, especially of our sisters and brothers that have passed over. Um, and the feature cover magazine is always somebody from the community. So it's about our own telling our own stories, and I think that's 101. And I think [02:15:00] we'll go from there, and actually, I'm going to take over the mic now from, uh, MC? Because I'd like to We're about to wind down this event for today. And I'd like to ask all those people who have been involved, uh, with this event that includes the trustees, that includes our M CS That includes our people [02:15:30] who are being volunteered, uh, who have, uh, captured information that includes people who are managing our sound. Um, those people, if you wouldn't mind coming within the next, uh, couple of minutes and then we'll, uh, look at, um, saying thank you for coming, et cetera, et cetera. Shortly. No, have a quick break, and, uh, we'll get back shortly.

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TITLE: Now and Then - Same Same But Different writers festival
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VOICES: Aorewa Mcleod; Brendan Were; Heather McPherson; Jade du Preez; Julie Helean; Madeline Reid; Matt Wort; Michelle Durey; Paula Boock; Ron Brownson; Ruby Porter; Semira Davis
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; AIM Best First Book Award; Alternative Bindings; Andrew Rumbles; Aorewa Mcleod; Aotearoa New Zealand; Art New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland Art Gallery; Auckland University of Technology; Brendan Were; Calling the Fish and Other Stories (book); Casting Off; Christchurch; Constantine Cavafy; Cracked (short story); Dare Truth or Promise (book); David Lyndon Brown; Dear November; Douglas Wright; Elam School of Fine Arts (Auckland); Family Portraits; Field Punishment No. 1 (tv); Four Artists with Cups (poem); Genderless; Germaine Greer; Gina Cole; Haunting Douglas (documentary); Heather McPherson; Herne Bay Petanque Club (Auckland); Ika; Imogen (poem); International Institute of Modern Letters (IIML); Jade du Preez; James Wallace; Joann Loulan; Julie Helean; Katherine Mansfield Short Story Awards; Keri Hulme; Lambda Literary Awards; Landfall (journal); Lesbian Sex (book); Lily of the Valley (short story); Lippy Pictures; Madeline Reid; Manukau Institute of Technology; Marcia Quackenbush; Marked Men (book); Mary Daly; Mary Stanley; Matt Wort; Michael Giacon; Michelle Durey; Misjudged (short story); My Lover Moves (poem); Māori; National Poetry Slam; Neighbourhood Watch (book); New Zealand Post Children's Book Awards; Nod Ghosh; Out Walked Mel (book); PAK'nSAVE; Pakeha; Paula Boock; PoetryLive at the Thirsty Dog (Auckland); Pride; Pride parade; Queenstown; Radio New Zealand; Re-Draft; Reality Bites (film); Robert Burns Fellowship (University of Otago); Ron Brownson; Ruby Porter; Sam Orchard; Samesame But Different (2016); Semira Davis; Sesqui 1990; Sestina (poem); Seven Lesbians and a Bar of Soap (short story); Sex Poems With No Bra On (poem); Skin Hunger (book); Spanish Steps (short story); Speak, Memory (book); Spiral (journal); State Highway 1B (poem); Steven Joyce; Stuck at the Lights (poem); Susan Sontag; Tangiwai - A Love Story (tv); Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington; Te Reo Māori; Tea Cups (poem); The Blue Lawn (book); The Bone People (book); The Female Eunuch (book); The Insiders Guide To Happiness (tv); The Mortification of Henry James (short story); The Open Accounts of an Honesty Box (book); The Penguin Book of New Zealand Verse; The Strip (tv); The Triumph of Hope (short story); Tino Rangatiratanga; Tiriti o Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi; Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); University of Auckland; University of Otago; Until Proven Innocent (tv); Vladimir Nabokov; Wallace Arts Trust Prize for Short Fiction; Walt Whitman; We the Ones; Wellington; Who Was That Woman, Anyway? (book); William Dart; William Taylor; Winona Ryder; activism; addiction; artist; arts; birthmark; books; bottom; bro'Town (tv); coming out; cum; dance; desire; exhibition; family; fantasy; feminism; gay; graffiti; gymnastics; heterosexual; human rights; law; lesbian; marriage; mental health; misogyny; narcissism; orgasm; painting; planes; poetry; publishing; queer; racism; radio; relationships; rugby; runway gay; scopophilia; self help; self publish; sex; sexism; shopping; sissy; the unfortunate experiment; tikanga; top; transgender; visual arts; voyeurism; women; writing
DATE: 13 February 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Auckland University of Technology, 55 Wellesley Street East, Auckland
CONTEXT: Audio from the session: Now and Then.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the now and then session. Same same, but different. Um, over the next hour or so, you'll be hearing the work of nine writers. Uh, we're presenting the Wallace Arts prize for best short story. Uh, and we'll hear the winner read their work. Uh, and finally, uh, Ron Brownson will give an acknowledgement of David Linden Brown, one of our community's literary lights who passed away in December. [00:00:30] I'd like to, uh, start off proceedings by inviting, uh, nod Ghosh and, uh, Jade Duris to join me on stage, please. Yes, Round of the draw. All right, Now, just a brief interlude. The pride writing competition was created two years ago by alternative bindings. Alternative bindings as, uh, Andrew [00:01:00] rumbles. Gina Cole. Who's here? Welcome, Gina. Uh, Michael Jacon, who's also here welcome Michael and myself. Uh, we are four individuals who love words, and we're determined to make literary events an important part of pride. The writing competition provides a safe and supportive environment for both emerging and established writers to share their stories. And this year we've been honoured by the support of the Wallace Arts Trust who have provided the generous prize as well as lending their name and prestige to the award. So thank you very, very much. [00:01:30] Um, other than the maximum length of 750 words and a theme a Kiwi romance. There were no restrictions on entries, and the stories were received. Expressed the triumph and joy of alternate sexuality or the pain and difficulty of being different. There were funny stories, sad stories, sweet stories, bitter stories, outrageous situations and introspective reflections. The quality of the submissions was astounding, and, as always, the judges had great difficulty choosing a winner. I'm honoured to, [00:02:00] uh, welcome to the stage. Uh, Sir James Wallace, who will be presenting the awards. Ladies and gentlemen, Sir James Wallace, the runner up in the Wallace Arts Trust Prize for short fiction is Nod Ghosh. Uh, with it. Nod nod story seven lesbians in a bar of soap. Uh, it was the winner. Nod [00:02:30] is a medical laboratory assistant in Christchurch and has had stories accepted in various New Zealand and international publications. Nods, Maxim Writers are like humans, but they watch this television. Thank you. No. The winner of this year's Wallace Arts Trust Prize for the best short story is Jay Dupre. Uh, Jade's story was titled Lily of the Valley. [00:03:00] Jade is a gifted and regularly exhibited visual artist. In fact, uh, she's currently studying for a law degree, uh, with a view to a career in wait for it. Human rights. So thank you very much. A round of applause, please. For both of, um, All right. I would now like to invite Jade to read her winning story. [00:03:30] Sorry. Thank you very much. Everyone here and obviously to the Wallace Trust and everyone who is organised. Um, I shall be succinct. These are my 750 words. Was 11 when he lost his words Not lost. That sounds forgetful. His words were taken. We said that happened to a generation. I said, Like, I care [00:04:00] about a generation. I said, What kind of a name is V, anyway? Guess I got a bit happy on the bourbon. Didn't usually talk to randoms. Curled her mouth like she'd been waiting to be asked a dirty one. She said she looked over the top of her paper cup like she reckoned she was actually in a movie or something. Like she had a crystal glass. That caught the light of [00:04:30] the hotel chandelier and that she just admitted to being a double agent. Like she wasn't actually at Stupid King's stupid graduation. Half in the dark on a lawn, turfed up by cars accompanied by a sound system from the nineties. Playing songs from the eighties. Great, I said as flat as I could. You can explain it to the guy over there. I nodded to a flat peak, leaning on a Corolla. [00:05:00] Been checking you out long enough? Him? She looked over serenely. Nah, he asked me to ask you. Hey, I stared so he noticed he was nervous. Laughed with his shoulders. Why V grind? Probably because he doesn't know you're a homo. I'm not. I sighed. This is probably the softball thing again. [00:05:30] Pity you said then. Even though I never asked. My name is Lily. Was she joking? There was pretty much nothing Lily like about her. Not silent. Not Lily. Livid. Definitely not white. It was updated to Lily of the Valley. Get it? Oh, yeah. Funny I didn't get it, but that [00:06:00] wasn't out of our business. V is foster to say easier to yell. She raised her eyebrows closed her eyes could have been in a movie. I forget which one turned out. She was studying languages. A linguist, she had a research project she wanted to speak to. My, you're fine, Not my business. She came over four days after she had a laptop [00:06:30] and flash glasses away from that crowd. She spoke differently softly. She pulled out and threaded her sentences through her any line, and she'd weave it into a long winded odyssey of history and policy. It turned out her name was a kind of Homo joke. My liked her. She came over again. Then again, sometimes it was just me at home. Then it seems like we weren't starting new meetings, [00:07:00] just that there were some interruptions. In one long one, I called her lily. I wanted to keep a secret part of her. She wasn't a lily, like one of those wild monster ones that crowd out the compost. She was more like one of those bursting ones from the shops, all kinds of bright colours, bright smelling, dropping pollen all over the rug, lingering. She'd come back from uni and release her latest phrases. All the sad German ones, [00:07:30] all the stubborn French ones, she said. I love you in 11 languages, three of them had no words. She retold the story of my. She shuffled through photographs and found a likeness in me the way of his lip, Lily said. He's resisting a fight. You do that. I'm not a chicken. I said, Come away with me. She said she'd won a scholarship. She was that smart. She was going south. [00:08:00] Then everything went south was given a few months. Max, I didn't tell. Lily just cancelled Our meetings. Wasn't up too much, I'd say. Really tired. Today wasn't her business anymore. I didn't want too many people poking around anyway, full on sorting out the maids food dressing. She didn't need to see that it was 1st. 1st he stopped speaking, then seeing [00:08:30] then he was just the pair of lungs in my grandfather's body. In the hospice, I lost my words. I hated all those ones from kind people for the best put to rest, so impressed, blessed, blessed less. I thought that is all that comes no more. I love you. Lily came up sprung from nowhere. [00:09:00] Someone must have told her it wasn't their business, but I let it go. I didn't say much to her. Watch the spot on the ground where roots would have been if she'd been true to her name. When we were alone, she read me her research. Put him in the story. I didn't mind that. How does it finish it? Doesn't she said thank you. [00:09:30] A well deserved win. Thank you very, very much. Jade, Um, we wish you well in your studies, and we hope to read lots more of your work. Hint, hint, hint. All right, Uh, and there's now an end session. We're exploring how things have changed and how things have stayed the same. Uh, and we'll be doing this through the voices of nine individual writers, [00:10:00] uh, each of whom will share with us a piece of their work. Four of these will be established writers noted for the evocation of our challenging past. And five will be new voices emerging largely young writers who are developing their voice in a world that is very different to the world I grew up in. So what has changed for today's LGBT Q I writers? Has anything changed? Each of our established writers has had [00:10:30] to struggle against many current social political and in some cases personal just to have their voices heard. Yet despite sweeping changes for our community, it would seem that struggle remains an inevitable part of LGBT. Q. I experience the forces and forms may have changed. The gatekeepers may wear new masks, and the media we use is most certainly morphed into shapes we couldn't have predicted. Or maybe science fiction writers could have. But struggle, [00:11:00] it seems, remains. Perhaps it's an inevitable part inevitable fact of life for those of us who often find ourselves on the margins. At the end of this session, each of you will be able to form your own opinion about what has changed about what hasn't an understanding informed by the voices of now and the voices of then I'd like to welcome our first speaker to the podium. Uh, Ruby Porter. [00:11:30] Uh, Ruby completed a BAB FA with first class honours and is doing a master of creative writing this year at Auckland University, in which she plans to finish a novel. She has recorded several of her poems for the next six pack sounds available soon on the New Zealand Electronic Poetry Centre website. Thank you. Hi. I'm I'm feeling a little bit sick. So if I dart off after this, I'm not trying to be rude. And this poem is called Imogen. [00:12:00] Her tutor was saying is unimaginable like no true or false? No like or dislike. No love. They could only have touched and untouched. She's untouched, Touched in the back seat by a boy. She doesn't like much. She thinks when she googled vampire squids, she must have seen the babies because they looked more like a lot. Flu says they are orgasmic. She hasn't orgasm in months. She thinks she could be one. Wouldn't mind doing [00:12:30] it by herself. Hermaphrodite meaning self-sufficient. They're only scared of each other. She gets that parked up outside Kelly to where she's seen the photos they went. Imagine eerie conversation like Leave her for me, OK? The last time she touched a girl, she was high and in a pool. Now she's below all of that imagines heavy she can swim beneath every everyone she's ever known. That's what an island means, right? Floating wet all [00:13:00] over like a foetus. I don't know whether it's too far from us or too close. He means the other parked car. She means the womb and memory we've all forgotten hasn't forgotten that night, except that would be warm. And this would be cold sometimes at night. It's so cold she can't feel anything thinking. Does it struggle to float like walking underwater hundreds of metres down? Apparently, when they come to the surface, they explode. [00:13:30] And then this next one's called State Highway one B out the window. Winter's hardness is just beginning to show. The branches of the Po seem to curl inwards for warmth. I put on the heater, but you say you can't stand it. You are always too hot and I am always too cold. What did you mean by that? You mean of course, the way I curl inwards. Pull over. Stop the car. By now you have counted three dead sheep. I wish you wouldn't point [00:14:00] it out, but I don't say anything. The snow is crunchy, dirty, only white. From a distance, I sit on the bonnet for warmth while you crouch behind a poplar. There are fences everywhere, but no houses. When you introduced me, you called me clear's friend. What did you mean by that? You mean? Of course, there's no use in counting. The inside of the car is blurring now too. We keep searching, but we only find static. I try to turn on the heater again. But you open the window. You [00:14:30] say we need to stop breathing the same air over and over again. Pull over. Stop the car. What did you mean by that? You mean we're moving too fast. But it all looks the same to me. The numbers that go down are just for show. When we left that night, you only held my hand. When we got to the car, I was going to ask where you went. But you say I am too interested in the degrees between us. The space to cool off. And I should try to be more out going over the limit. I want to put my hand on your knee. [00:15:00] But I don't know how to spread myself wide enough. And you say Don't bother. This bend in the road is the conversation. Your words are tarmac. What did you mean by that? You mean of course the sign. A few cases back. We must have missed it already. Thank you, Ruby. amazing. [00:15:30] What a way to start. That's gonna be hard to follow. Yeah. Wow. The, uh, use of pace and rhythm in that just astounding. Just amazing. My heart's still slowing. Next up, I would, uh, like to call to the podium. Uh, McLeod, many people in this room, including myself, were taught by a in the English department at the University of Auckland, where she worked for, uh, 37 years. Am I allowed to say that? 37 [00:16:00] years, uh, she undertook the MA in creative writing at Victoria Victoria University in 2011, and she has published as a critic. She's edited anthologies, but she's probably best known for her book. Who was that woman, anyway? Well, this is a piece I I wrote in 19 in 2016 this year for lesbians in 2016, [00:16:30] and I've called it casting off the fan turns slowly, making a tired crack with each circuit. Three women are sitting amidst cartons piled high with books, books donated to the centre by women retiring women downsizing women down decluttering. OK, what about this one? It's Angie, her long tattooed legs sprawled out on the floor amongst the books where she's just up ended a carton. Now [00:17:00] this one's got an awesome cover. Hot Pink with two naked embracing women and the titles are lesbian sex. Oh, God, not another one. Beth rummages into the curtain between her knees and pulls out a lurid pink lesbian sex by Joanne Lin, and I bet you've got this one, too. Lesbian Passion By Joanne Lin Purple cover With embracing naked women, we all bought Joanne Lu until the rumour that she'd got [00:17:30] married to a man was confirmed in the nineties. Hey, but this one's got an inscription, and Beth reads out to my beloved Gwen on the third year of our rapturous, lifelong journey. Your lover, Pam. Oh, no, Steffie murmurs from her beanbag. I know them. Or rather, I knew them. Pam's had two. Or is it three beloved since then? Yes, it's. Most of them do ink [00:18:00] out their names or rip out the cover page. But you know it's awful. I've got all these books on my shelves, yellowing pages covered in dust, and she reads out some of the names, flinging them onto the throw out curtain, tangled sheets, stories and poems of lesbian lust. The lesbian reader, lavender culture, lesbian images, lesbian nation, 19 eighties 19 nineties. We were all so eager, [00:18:30] so desperate for information about being lesbian that we'd read anything with the word lesbian on the cover, how we wanted them. We needed them to help us define ourselves. Look here, lesbian ethics. She holds up a very thick book with a serious non pink cover. So far, we've got five copies of this and I've got one at home. Haven't read it for over 30 years. I'm 75 and these are the books that gave me words [00:19:00] for myself when I had my first affair in 1960 1960. Would you believe it? I don't think I'd even heard the word lesbian. Do you realise? Stiff says You said, Oh God, oh God, not another one. We'd never have said that in the eighties. Don't you remember what Mary Daly said? God represents the Acropolis of the patriarchy. Wow, says Angie. [00:19:30] That's a lot of laughs than a prop of the patriarchy. And and listen to this. She's been thumbing through lesbian sex. Did you really do this here? Page 259 exercises for orgasmic responses. This is hilarious. It's in the homework section, and she and she reads out orgasmic response with yourself. Exercises 1 to 7. Step one. [00:20:00] Write a letter to your sexual response. Tell us how dissatisfied you are. Really? Let your body know how it has let you down. Now do you want to have orgasms? Do you feel you're missing something? If you haven't had orgasms? Do you have resentment that your partner has them so easily? Do you think you're not vulnerable and open because you don't have orgasms? And there's so much more? Did you guys really write letters to your orgasms? [00:20:30] No. Sorry to your sexual responses. All right, all right, Beth says. No, I didn't. I never got that far in the book anyway, and I never had problems with orgasms. My first lesbian affair was my first orgasm. I just needed to know what to call it. Hey, here's one that looks well used says in our own hands, a book of self help therapy, lots of markings and turned down pages. [00:21:00] I remember this book. I was in a self help group that used it, and she grins at Beth. Angie stretches out, grabs the book and reads from the introduction in order to understand the sexism, competitiveness, possessiveness and authoritarianism fostered by the family within capitalism. Oh wow, that's so cool. I love the language. It was a great group, said Beth. That's how Steph and I got together. 1984. [00:21:30] It was a lesbian version of the consciousness raising groups that were spreading everywhere with feminism. My God, was it really 30 years ago? Well, says Angie, what should we keep one Sex, one passion, one. Ethics? Nope, interrupts Beth out with all of them. No one would read them now, except perhaps to laugh at them like you. Oh, OK, But here's one that doesn't have lesbian in the title. Macho Sluts. [00:22:00] No, it's good. I should have brought it. Now it's got a great cover look. High heeled black boot on someone's black leather back who seems to have a face into someone's black leather crutch. And look, the author's wearing black leather and black shades. I've got that one as well, Beth says. It's it's still on my bookshelf. That was a scary book back in, And was it late eighties? [00:22:30] It was about Sadow masochism in the days when we were supposed to be writing letters to our vanilla orgasms. We all brought it, bought it to find out what it was about. She turns back to her desk. I've just catalogued a bunch of new books. The Centre has bought Sam Orchard's Family Portraits, that cute graphic novel about being a trans boy. Trans love, trans bodies, trans Selves. That's the latest thing, not lesbianism. Steph pulls out a limp, [00:23:00] battered book from her carton. Here's a female eunuch. That book was so important we did all read that. Actually, I still quite like Germaine Greer. I didn't think her comments about Trans women were so bad, you know, when she said postoperative trans women were not women. Good God, says Beth. Sorry, I forgot. Great God is Beware stiff or and you'll be throwing glitter at you and calling you a turf. Come again. [00:23:30] What's a turf? T ER. If it's a trans exclusionary, radical feminist means you're trapped in 19 eighties centralist feminism. Really bad Transphobic Oh says stiff. What are they saying now about grid? An old lady with outdated views? Perhaps that's me, not you two, says Angie. [00:24:00] Look how busy. You all are throwing your pasts away. Yeah. Who was that woman anyway? Thank you. That was just stunning. A lovely [00:24:30] evocation of now and then. Nothing more needs to be said. Next up. I would like to, uh, invite, uh, Samira Davis to the podium. Samira is another one of our new voices. Samira is a poet whose work has been published in Redraft, E and Landfall. She is studying creative writing at MIT and was awarded one to watch at the 2015 New Zealand Poetry Slam Finals. She's currently working on a short story collection that explores sexuality and human connection. [00:25:00] Yeah, that was brilliant. Um, this first poem I'm going to read is called Stier, and it's a response to a poem written about 50 years ago by Mary Stanley. Um, if you don't know the format of a susa, it's six stanzas with the end of each line repeating six words in a very specific order. So that's hence the repetition [00:25:30] right now it hurts to look back, giving you that heart shaped cookie to eat. You kept it in the freezer in hope of love, reminding me I am queer deep in my blood You sprouted and grew. What made you change my mind? I said I would write. You didn't mind? Fingers left keys to cradle your back In the winter, our romance grew under thick blankets where we'd eat each other proud and queer. Disturbing the nights with our love. [00:26:00] You read my past as lack of love. Nothing I said could ease your mind. The accusations created a queer numbness burrowing through my back ready to pounce and eat buried deep This numbness grew a year of doubt and we grew apart. You questioning my love seeing betrayal in the foods I'd eat as if my body shape would lead me back to men. Or that my mind only saw you as my badge [00:26:30] of being queer. You saw me as more straight than queer When the desire to write my past grew strong you fought hard to hold me back You showed contempt and shunned my love Cutting away the passion of my mind You took more than you could eat Those bitter words Those heavy chains began to eat the heart of me till the queer numb surfaced and escaped my mind [00:27:00] My lost self returned my strength grew and into words you feared and forced I don't love you I am leaving and won't come back in fear You forced my hand from love your words into reality grew the cookie bark I made up my mind And the second poem or today is interestingly titled Six poems [00:27:30] with no barrow However I am wearing one You've carved a pentagram in the wood of your guitar The lighter you hold against the fret is orange sliding up and down My legs are tapped under the neck so I can watch your fingers from behind You make the silent You make me write songs in my head that I'm too scared to sing Because I know my music [00:28:00] isn't as strong as yours But it was me who described how we felt that night So you play and I breathed in the sun And tomorrow I will be jealous of myself for having spent the day with you. Thank you. Thank you, Sarah. That was amazing. [00:28:30] Um, I can feel a bit of a synergy Emerging seems to be a conversation spontaneously forming here between the past and the present. Maybe it will lead us to the future. Next up, I would like to welcome Paula Bock. I simply can't compress Paula's achievements into a 22nd introduction, so skimming the surface of a very deep pond, she [00:29:00] has been Otago University's Burns fellow. She Co-founded Longacre Press won the AM best first book award for Outworked Mel won the New Zealand Post Children's Book Award for Dear Truth Promise and has been shortlisted for the US Lambda Literary Awards. She's a television writer who worked on the Strip, Bro Town and Insiders Guide to Happiness. She inaugurated Lippy Pictures, whose productions and until proven innocent and Field Punishment number one who won multiple awards in Australia and New Zealand. And actually, I rode a horse on fear of Punishment Number one. she's an incredibly diverse writer [00:29:30] and makes the rest of us feel completely lazy. Nice. Thank you very much. Brendan, um, you can hear me here, can't you The nodding at the back I'm looking for, um I'll have to be quick. Um, I'm gonna read from dear truth or promise, because I don't get very many opportunities to these days, and it was quite nice to pull it out and reread it um, looking forward to this. And because there's [00:30:00] something about then and now because I wrote this in 1997. Um, it was the first Y a lesbian novel in New Zealand. There weren't very many in the world, and so it was quite controversial there. I'd like to think such a thing wouldn't be controversial now, but I did write it deliberately, knowing it would be controversial. And, um, because there just weren't any books for young queer women coming out. And there was one book for a New Zealand by a New Zealand [00:30:30] writer, William Taylor. The Blue Lawn, um, which explored young gay love, Um, and also obviously, as a writer, I wanted to write it because one always wants to kind of reimagine the most complex and powerful experience of your life. And at that time in my twenties, it was coming out. Um, this is a little excerpt. The two protagonists are Louie and Willa. They're both 16. Um, they're at school. They're kind of going out on a date, [00:31:00] I guess. An unusual date. Um, and they have arrived at a patch of farmland in the middle of nowhere, and Lo doesn't know what's in the store there, said Willer. There she is. Louis followed her gaze. They stood about a paddock's length away from the end of the runway, staring straight down two lines of neon blue spots. At the far end were [00:31:30] the flashing red and white lights of an aircraft coasting into position. Louis looked at Willa, her heart already beginning to pump. You're mad. You're absolutely bloody crazy. This is your idea of fun. Willer was transfixed by the sight of the plane. They could hear its engines in the distance, the combination of raw and wine that always thrilled. Louie. You wait, Willis said. And Louie looked at her for a moment, noting the fix of her eyes, the [00:32:00] tension around her jaw and the little vein pulsing at her temple. I'm out of control, she thought. If she asked me to throw myself under a jumbo's wheels, I'd say front or back. The engines whirred ferociously, and the plane began to move forward at her side. Willa's hand found Louis, and they stood frozen to the spot. At first it seemed incredibly slow, as if it were just rolling towards them and Lou could make up people [00:32:30] in the flight deck, dimly lit. Then suddenly the lights at the end of each wing flashed violently, wider and wider, and Lou could see, for the first time the body of the plane, its bulk bearing down on them, rushing at them, huge wings outstretched. The sound was overwhelming, shrieking, blaring. Louie wanted to cover her ears, but she didn't want to let go of Willa's hand. She dug her nails as the plane ate up the runway, murderous, and just [00:33:00] before her legs began to dissolve, the white lights at the front lifted and a blast of hot air and thunderous noise burst out from under the aircraft. It screeched above them. It's white body burning through the air and the surrounding blackness wobbling in the heat. The smell of burning rubber and exhaust filled Louis's nostrils and mouth, which was open and screaming, now screaming for all she was worth. She was jumping, too, jumping down, up around, and then her arms were around, Willa squeezing [00:33:30] her, still yelling and whooping, and Willa was yelling back, and they leapt about in a circle for a bit before Louis realised she actually had her arms around Willa, embracing her and she decided not to let go to let go would mean to wait until she had this good an excuse again, and she didn't know when that might be. Louie couldn't bear it anymore. To hell with it, she thought. To hell with it. They stopped jumping. They stopped yelling, and Louie gripped on to Willa, hugged [00:34:00] tighter even and buried her head in her shoulder. Her heart was still thumping, and she could feel Willers, too, like a bird's belting against a cage. And then Willa's arms moved, and Louis caught her breath in fear. Terrified, she'd pull away. She did it. Her hand cupped. Louis's head ran down the back of her hair, her neck, and lay cool and gentle under her collar. Her other arm moved lightly up her back [00:34:30] and rested there. What a difference. The quality of the touch, the subtle shift and placement that turned a hug into a hold. Louis wanted to cry to weep with relief. She relaxed her wrestling grip and leaned into Willa, nuzzled her heavy hair, felt the soft skin under her ear, breathed in her smell when will turned and kissed her. Louie thought in her head. This is my first [00:35:00] kiss. Well, it wasn't. Of course she'd kissed the number of guys and more, but she'd never, ever felt as if she were falling off a cliff. She'd never before felt as if her body were being turned to water from the inside out. Or as if they're both whirling through space into an airless black vortex. Louis felt all these things and above all, a disbelief. A wild, terrifying disbelief that this should be happening. No, not that she was in love with a girl, for it seemed [00:35:30] suddenly absolutely natural that she should be in love with this girl. But that God only knew how this girl should love her back. Thank you. Thank you, Paula. Amazing. A beautiful, sustained metaphor. I feel myself flying next up. I'd like to welcome Matt [00:36:00] Ward. Matt is a graduate of the creative writing programme Man Man Institute of Technology. As part of his concern about the alarming figures around Queer Youth suicide, he has written about the often one dimensional representation of queer characters in young adult fiction and of the straightening of protagonists and narratives that occur in mainstream fiction, something we're all aware of I was personally excited to read some of Matt's work, as this is an area I lecture in here at a UT. It's wonderful to see a young emerging [00:36:30] writer grappling with these issues. I see a change coming, Matt. Unfortunately, I've just been set up for a lot of your disappointment. Um, today I won't be boring you with, um, some of my essays. Um, instead, I'll just start, um, I will speak about the biggest threat facing our community. Um, a disease that tears through communities and ruins gay lives all over the world. I am, of course, [00:37:00] talking about heterosexuals. I have a great many problems with the majority. But perhaps the most alarming is this. When a straight person finds out you're gay, they will immediately ask you the precise second you knew you were gay as if you went to bed one night watching the NRL and eating barbecue ribs, only to wake up in the morning wanting the entire rugby team to piss in your mouth for three reasons. [00:37:30] I will never be a runway gay one. I don't have thousands of dollars to spend on a mesh vest that will eventually cheese grape, my nipples off. Two. The only reason I would spend longer than 10 minutes in a clothing store is if I'd looked at a price tag and died. Death is literally the only way to keep me shopping. And third, I just don't have the cheekbones for that kind of lifestyle. I'll become a model [00:38:00] when sweatpants, man boobs and $27 haircuts become high fashion. So I don't want a straight bash all afternoon, although it is my favourite pastime. But I was recently having a conversation and somebody said, Why don't straight people have a parade? So I got down to her intellect, intellectual level and said, Well, sweetie, when gay people burn straight people alive and deny them their rights for hundreds of years, then you can have a parade. [00:38:30] In hindsight, probably not the best way to teach a four year old about gay rights. We are, um, straight. People seem convinced that gay people have an insane amount of sex, and the truth, if only for me, is far less sweaty and grand. I realised quite early on in life that my standards were disproportionately higher than my attractiveness, [00:39:00] which is hard enough to deal with. But further insult is added when Stephen Joyce manages to get more cock in his face than I do. And another annoying thing is the idea that all gay people know each other a straight will ask, Oh my God, do you know Augustine? And no, I would never associate myself with somebody who had a name like that, and she says, Well, you guys should totally hook up. He's gay, too, As if the only prerequisite [00:39:30] I might need to sleep with a man is that he likes my gender. But Sweet Augustine does bring to the forefront another problem in our community, and that is the vast imbalance of bottoms to tops. Strap yourselves into your chastity belt. There's nothing sad in my mediocre life than when I see a guy with a huge muscular body and a scruffy draw line and piercing eyes. And the further I scroll down his profile, the more we fall in love until I finally [00:40:00] reach his sexual preferences box. And it just says the one word that ruins me bottom. Nothing is more tragic than a bottom stuck in a top's body, and I have a friend who said, Well, couldn't you just make it work? And as I have to tell my desk with Annelise on a regular basis, two bottoms simply don't make a top. Finally, the stereotype that all gays are hyper emotional beings, [00:40:30] which may be true for some, but definitely not for me. I have only cried twice in my life once when my, uh, once out of happiness when my father told me my great nan was dead and secondly, out of sadness, when he told me he was just joking to add some context, she once fed me dog treats. So here's to you, Bertha, you old bitch! Thank you. [00:41:00] I'm looking forward to television in the 20 twenties. Next up, I would like to, uh, invite Heather McPherson to the podium, please. Heather's poetry Heather Poetry has been represented in many anthologies, including the Penguin Anthology of New Zealand verse in 1976. Heather Co-founded Spiral as a Journey of women's Sorry as a journal of women's art and literature. Spiral later developed into a publishing house and published, amongst other things, uh, Kerry [00:41:30] Holmes Booker Prize winning the Bone People. Uh, she is also a visual artist and curator, uh, one of the strongest voices for women in the arts and a in New Zealand. But in respect of the theme of this session, it is a quote of hers that stands out to me. Speaking of poems she published in the 19 seventies, she said, And I quote, I was then obscuring my identity by using initials. Having been advised, I stood a better chance of being published if I wasn't known as a woman, let alone a lesbian. [00:42:00] Hi, everybody. And welcome. I practised too hard during the week. I'm losing my voice. So if you can't hear me, just put your hands up and wave or something. Um, I thought that this was a a kind of chronology that needed to be addressed when I was trying to choose poems to read, but all [00:42:30] the issues that I was going to have, I've I've also addressed. So, um, I might as well, I think, turn the chronology around the other way because I'm going to run out of time. I think so. Um, the first one is stuck at the lights and the van ahead flashes phantom build stickers. We never sleep Good grief. 40 years ago, we snuck out leaving the babysitters [00:43:00] in charge and did paste ups with our women's gallery mates, having hung the show and set spellbound through Friday poems and rounded up kids after women's dances and look. These days, you can buy somebody else's energy for outreach. It's like government selling our markets as the free trade bottom of the Pacific, and I picture us lugging wallpaper, glue and posters hot off print, collective desks and spirals out of her [00:43:30] story and old bags and socialist lesbian type setters and lovers and friends living rooms. But, hey, we split our cages and rattled others. And yes, it needs doing again. Again again. Ask any intimidated girls, gays, wives, others the young, struggling and aged figure lights, green feet [00:44:00] we lurch and the Phantom Bill stickers Wait. Our mobility is fugitive. So no, we don't overtake. Just call. Left, Left, right, right. No left, right. Oh, wait, OK. One of the things that we were addressing as part of the general myotomy around the place was who controls what is [00:44:30] published or taught, or is is is able to be talked about. Um I was reading Ali Smith and um, she had a photograph. Four women asleep and I wrote this portrait. Four artists with cups Four artists sit close together to hold flowery cups and sauces. All their eyes are shut as an agenda statement, and they embody a tableau. The [00:45:00] un awakened woman. Are they heterosexual? Gay, lesbian, gender, queer in between, who decreed their UN presence and casts absentees in my grandparents overgrown backyard. I played at being the prince who helped through Blackberry and Bramble and kissed the princess awake. And we rode her white horse back to the Palace Majesty and married and lived [00:45:30] happily, if not ever after. At least now legally, did her husband or her husband take this shot. So artists who were women couldn't be artists again, and nobody knew they'd been their art unseen. Well, Leonora kept painting serenely surreal dreams. Lee Miller's wartime photos winged to Auckland Museum. Her son unpacked them from the attic after she died. [00:46:00] Rinse the poison cups, feed the bloody spindle to the fire. Old myths expire and you will you dance awake and we've new miss you and three similar friends ref, figuring the arts and um, finally, because I've only got for that? Um, this book that I wrote in the nineties 1991 it was [00:46:30] published and I looked through it and I thought, Goodness, Oh, I was so angry then. Oh, and then I got to the end and I thought, Oh, well, yes, we were angry. We were addressing misogyny, which is a lot about what's in here, including the unfortunate experiment. And then I ended up my lover moves. My lover moves long thighs and capable hands. My lover hammers nails and shovels dirt. My lover [00:47:00] cradles breasts and handles horses. My lover strokes my ligaments into water. My lover dances, sings and designs the city, my lover turning heads and filaments and strings. My lover drives through continents and beliefs and sweeping out of spaces where pasts and futures mix. We together in them to undo presents, gifts and go betweens. Climb cliffs and mediations, make births and deaths [00:47:30] and deu generations. My lover when she fights, draws ghosts and laughs and opens life. Thank you, Heather. What a beautiful image. The, uh, as Heather mentioned. We're pushing time, so I'll leap further. Forwards. Uh, next up, Michelle Drury. Uh, Michelle is [00:48:00] a bachelor of creative arts graduate from MITS creative writing programme. She's co-founder of the New Zealand National Poetry Slam and current MC at New Zealand's longest running weekly poetry event, Poetry Live, which has been running for 35 years 36 36 years as of 2016. Uh, Michelle is also a passionate activist for mental health awareness. Hi. Obviously, I wasn't the, uh MC at poetry life for the last 35 years, as I'm only coming up 40. Um, [00:48:30] but I'm very, very honoured to be a part of a long line of, um, M CS. Um, just before I start, I don't have a lot in terms of reading about my sexuality because I'm very happy and and comfortable and don't feel threatened, which is quite refreshing, I would imagine. Um, but also I do want to say that Yes, I am, uh, married to a man right now. And, yes, I have had heterosexual sex to have three Children. That does not make me heterosexual genderless. Imagine when you woke up this morning you were greeted to a world with no visible gender. [00:49:00] Your friends, family exes and hopeful love lovers. All genderless. But at the same time exactly as you remember them, with all their beautiful flaws and charms, still putting your desire for human connection on that factory line of life, knowledge and experience. But today, each new encounter begins to expose the absence of intentions, and you realise how difficult it's going to be to determine where your intensity of attraction expressions can and should be kept. [00:49:30] You see gender and its easy identity is the upstaging actor on the stage of most days. But today these guidelines haven't been drafted, and sexual preferences and their displays don't even exist. It's like a toddler daycare with no caring parental. As liberating as it seems, the level of your maturity and common sense is too underdeveloped to to slow the sway of Love's consecutive pendulum. Because the Jessie [00:50:00] whom you've just met may feel like hypnotism at first glance compared to lifelong friend Terry, whom you've never really wanted to touch. And then there's Danny, whom you want to crawl inside of to hibernate. But just for the two winters, unaware it could turn Joe into the one that got away. But this smooth innocence wrinkles the day as Danny is a flame you need to be physically close to while Joe slips in and out to remind you how much difference a single day in a single friend can make. And Terry's [00:50:30] never looked more at home in this world of casual hands and insistent fingers. While you haven't a clue as to how to obtain a clue on whether Jessie and you could have ever been more than just a passionate possibility, you see today has only altered to you. The rest have resided here the whole time, and they cannot understand your shallow ignorance and flippant display of your supposed variety in this genderless society. And as the day sets its sunset, [00:51:00] your loved ones feel played unappreciated, used disrespected by someone who is obviously incapable of deep seated love. With all those complexities dressing this genderless society, your naked sexuality is seen as dishonesty. When this day finally darkens, it's exhaustion and futility. You empathising company as you fall asleep and hope to dream away the hours in your in your old world a world you felt a spectator [00:51:30] in in sexuality gallery, And that's and that's about as close as I can get you to the difficulty in understanding my world, a world of blurred sexuality, and the last one I was going to read for you very quickly is a love poem I wrote for a girl called teacups. Familiar faces fill already busy spaces, and I can't keep my mind off you, not even in the room. And still your respirator smile slides [00:52:00] down the side of my shy guide as I lie to myself. Say I can fly through your eyes before you blink where I can liquidly sink into your mild hideaway and never have to go. Or I can somehow set my flow to a slower show of the grown moments between us and lean us against the screaming in my head For something more, more of you and more of my boredom turn chores into scores of nervous courtship and the quiver of a touch more than friendship. Send skin to thin to vulnerable shivers, so I can't keep my mind off you. [00:52:30] Not even the looming thunder of inspiration can make blunder a distraction from the stumbler. Your wonder is tumbling out of me out of meaning to shrink shrink to predictable hints so you can sink closer to me. with your soothing lips Like cloud pillow tips. What a trip they must be to kiss in some hiss Sip of lid clothes bliss bliss Where wind pushes my hands to your hips And my mind won't want to sift and drift from you To sift through this lightning feeling that my tamed heart is [00:53:00] wild Once more like desires lamed pot can strive once for once more for my fascination Adolescent explores what is already so easy to see You've stormed more than a teacup in me. Thank you, Michelle. Awesome and succinct. Next one. Next up. Uh, Julie, I'd [00:53:30] love you to come up. Please. Uh, Julie needs no introduction. Oh, all right. But I'm gonna give her one anyway. She is a master of creative writing graduate from the University of Auckland. She's been published in Landfall magazine and was the winner of the Katherine Mansfield Literary Award for her short story. Misjudged, uh, her novel, the Open accounts of an honesty box, was published in 2011 and has been produced for national radio. She was also one of the judges, uh, for the Wallace Arts prize. Best short story. Thank you, Julie. Thank you. I'll stand here. And, um, if [00:54:00] you can't hear me, please speak up. This is 1989 a few months before the Great Centenary. If you remember, that was 100 and 50 years celebration of the Treaty of Waitangi. And guess what? The anti racism groups are mobilising. She can read the night. She sprawls at the far end of the bus, shelter legs apart and waits for a what the clouds to clear the moon to rise over the ridge, [00:54:30] the clock to strike midnight, a particular shade of dark. We should have done the hit ages ago. Instead, we're still hanging around. Richmond rode her hoodie up my beanie down, both of us feeling the cold. But I'm not complaining. I know she needs me. She needs someone nimble and handy with a spray can. And I'm glad because not many Maori will work with, let alone trust us to staunch up when it comes to radical action. [00:55:00] Perhaps she hears me sighing because her head turns one eyebrow raised and grinning like she knows what I'm thinking. Like she can read me as well as the night. Oh, it's all clear. What say we do? It now. Hey, it comes out funny. A vibration in my jaw that makes my teeth jut like When I bike over the street bridge, I bury a yawn in the neck of my sweatshirt, thinking I'll be lucky to grab five hours sleep even [00:55:30] if things do go according to plan. It's fine for Cat. She can sleep till 10 and still make her Monday morning tutorial. But then cat would crawl over broken glass to attend her uni lectures. Bloody sad that you have to go to university to discover your language and your culture, to get a grasp on racism, to find other Maori students who would offer your first real taste of. But what do I know? None of my business. All I know is she needs a buddy to do the hits with someone [00:56:00] on hand and handy with graffiti. Someone who knows their treaty responsibilities and doesn't argue. I jiggle my backpack. Oh, OK, what about Now? I hear the squeak in my voice. No wonder she throws me a lock, blows on the end of her cigarette, then takes another puff. Oh, I'm not nervous. I've just amped up and ready, for fuck's sake. Who's gonna bother two women spray painting the liquor shop wall. It's the police. [00:56:30] We need to watch four cops running the lights with sirens blazing, Cops sneaking around in unmarked Holden. Now I've had a thought. Cat sits up and snaps her fingers at me. That liquor shop. It's a white wall, right? White is everything that's good, pure and clean, virginal and angelic. That's what I think. Then she throws me that look [00:57:00] goofy grin on her face like I'm dumb or something. Or Cat may be studying politics and the whole Maori studies thing, and she may call herself an academic. But I'd call her 5 ft 10 of hot smoking anger, which is why I almost feel sorry for her. She's the right stuff to become a leader, like the other Maori in the movement, like Denny, like Uncle and Nanny Pearl. Only Cat doesn't have the gene or whatever it is for fear, and sooner or later, all [00:57:30] that uppity and all that confidence and all that risk taking is going to end us in a whole lot of trouble. What can I do? When she moved into the flat with her wilting philodendron, she was just another dyke looking for a cat friendly vegetarian house close to uni. Now Jasmine and me had no idea what could happen to a person enrolled in Maori studies. [00:58:00] In 18 months, our flatmate became a formerly fledged radical activist, filling the house with books and posters, labels on everything and a whole lot of talk about the treaty. Turns out that Cat's Mom had been too busy with their dry cleaning business in to Give Cat much in the way of and let alone the ins and outs of the Treaty of Waitangi. She's already told me a bit about [00:58:30] herself that her mom was a hungry business woman, and her step dad knew every trick in the book for removing stains. There's a satisfied chuckle beside me. Kat's been thinking up slogan. She's pleased with her self and tells me what to write on the wall. Next thing she's chuck in her bag in the gutter, leaps up and stamps her high tops on the pavement. No point sitting around freezing [00:59:00] our asses. Come on, Charlie, get going, eh? Stands there with her hands on her hips like she's waiting like I'm the one holding things up the wall of the liquor shop is under eaves and dry enough to take a hit. I give my can a hard shake, tensing at the sound as the ball bearing does its inside the can at 1000 decibels can't be helped. You don't shake, you get a clogged nozzle, and if you [00:59:30] rush, you'll throw the letters up nice and big at the start, only to have them bunch at the end. Which leaves the whole slogan looking like some sad fuck doodle on a pencil case. So it's critical that pause to have the picture clear in your mind before you hit the nozzle. No point telling cat to pause. She'll attack the wall with paint. Never mind that has 18 letters, [01:00:00] each one needing space to breathe. Next day, Kat's message will be sitting there. Let us rammed up where she's run out of war and the whole thing looking like a graffiti train wreck. Minutes go by nothing but the night closing around us. Go for it, she says. Then something in Maori. While I get to work, she stands behind me once again [01:00:30] practising her Maori on someone who doesn't know as she likes to say a from a mhm long, even strokes red venom hissing on to white. I've had plenty of spelling mistakes and smear ups in the past, but this one's a nice white wall. Yeah. [01:01:00] My what? Thank you, Julie. Amazing. I'm heading straight home to put out some spray cans and say, uh and finally, I would like to, uh, welcome Madeleine Reid. Uh, Madeleine graduated from Auckland University's creative writing school and has been accepted into a master's of creative writing programme at the prestigious Institute of Modern Letters. As part of the page stream. Congratulations. [01:01:30] Uh, she's planning a novel this year. Um, so this is an excerpt from a novel that I'm writing called Dear November. And at this point in the story, Ava, the main character, is having some trouble at work with her boss, who's quite a conservative figure and with a young male guest who won't stop hitting on her even though she has a girlfriend. Pardon my French for the first part. What a complete fucking cow, I said. [01:02:00] She threw the covers off the bed and bundled them into a white mound on the carpet. And him she smelled. He's got another thing coming if he thinks he can just play me like a fucking prawn like that prick, you're beautiful and you're angry. Greta, please. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. A side and threw herself down into the laundry heap. She let the shirts and dresses cascade over her stomach like a tap and flicked her hair back, casting a brazen look at her girlfriend. It's all right, said Greta, descending too. [01:02:30] She kept Ava's head on her arms and began to rock her gently. It will be all right. Soon things will settle down, I promise. How do you know that? Said a. How do you actually know that, though she threw her hands up in the air making a scissor motion. If I'm supposed to work here for the next eight months or so, how am I meant to deal with this? Tell me, Greta. How time will tell, she says. I hope so. She curled around so that a torso was flanked between Greta's hips, her elbows on her knees and her head on her lap. [01:03:00] She linked hands with her, enjoyed the smooth and all of her hair being played with and the other woman's breath fluttering against her neck. She kissed her slowly at first and then harder. They kissed until their mouths were cupped and the sweat was beating and their hands were tighter on each other's waists, tugging for something unfound, uniquely, uniquely, un graspable for all of the love and all of the passion administered in those silent meetings in the hallways, shoulders colliding, feet shuffling and tapped on the scuffing lunchroom tables, [01:03:30] they both felt giddy and drunk like they were still at high school together, meeting secretly in the music block, practise rooms and having sex with the lights off, the door fastened and the bass drum rolling and rattling away in a dull, harmonious sud. Wait, wait, stop Greta pulling away. What is it? A. Pulled herself out on the bed, reaching desperately for the straps on her puffin glass. They were thick and difficult to undo. Her hands were trembling. I've got this stupid class, said Greta. Suddenly, I've [01:04:00] got this class I have to teach now, she motioned to the clock. I only just noticed the time Ava glanced over. It was 7 15 outside the night, air, blinkered through the porter and waves of compressed notes a child falling off their skis, a two in one of the fir trees cooing like New Zealand's only owl. Damn it, she thought. God damn it, Greta. Well, I guess I'm going to the markets in. She pulled her sweater on, hugging it around her angrily. I hope you have a good [01:04:30] class. A wait. Don't worry about it, she said, smiling. She kissed her on the powdered cheek and smiled again. I'll be fine. Out on my own. Queenstown hosted a fortnightly night market, selling stools of white fu and oiled spring rolls and candles that smell like time and wick. There were strands of lights roped in, loops across the telephone poles shining luminously from flowered paper boats and taffy cradles. Everywhere was roaring. Everyone was keen. Large groups [01:05:00] of fitting teenagers gathered by the central bridge, B puffing Marlborough lights like they were the coolest things out. After Winona Rider in the nineties, Eva walked past him and killed her laugh. She bet they hadn't seen reality bites down by the throat of waterfront. She walked, feeling sad and lonely. She learned on the port side rail, watching the glowing water in our chemical moon. It was beautiful and translucent and wild, like something you couldn't clasp properly. Like something you couldn't see. [01:05:30] She fished out her phone, scrolling through the dials and read again. One missed call from Mum. Thank you. Thank you, Madeline. A clear evocation of now, Finally, uh, I would like to invite, uh, Ron Brownson to the podium. Uh, as many of you will know, uh, Ron is a senior curator at the Auckland Art Gallery. [01:06:00] Uh, he's going to present an acknowledgement of David Brown for just a few moments. A few minutes. I'd like to remember David Linden Brown. Um, he would be here today, but he's not because he's dead. He died on the 30th of December last year. I met David in February 1971 and I remember kind acts [01:06:30] and I He was very kind to me in, uh, 1971. And so what I'd like to do today is just say some things from his writings so that we can just remember him because David has mentored a lot of people as a writer. He had a wonderful service at the Hearn Bay. Um pa pa club. I've never been there before, but um as I was going there, I stopped off at, um, Dominion Books. [01:07:00] And in the window was, uh, Vladimir Nabokov's, um, memoir of his time in Russia. Speak memory. So, in a sense, I suppose, the tone that I'd like to take today and thank you, Peter for asking me is one of speak memory. David came to writing later in life. He when he was, in that phrase of his parents' generation, middle aged. He was, firstly, a visual artist, but a somewhat secret and reclusive one. [01:07:30] Although David held a number of exhibitions, he never really promoted the fact that he'd been making paintings. In many ways, his paintings were analogues to his writings. His paintings really served as illustrations of moods and relationships operating like visual poems. And I've always felt David's paintings share the presence of yearning communicated best by this phrase. My deep dark pain is love. David's most confident [01:08:00] creative medium was as a short story writer and as a poet, he wrote his uh 2007 novella marked Men as an extended narrative, and the book's blurb described it as an eerie novel, taking quote adventure into the realm of crime, sudden disappearances and the violent fantasies of longing. Here is the novella's first two sentences and its final sentence. [01:08:30] Not many people know how or when the Institute of Pain began. Just about everyone knows how it finished. The last sentence is really one of the best sentences, David wrote. Come here, I said to the boy and tell me some lies about yourself. David was a fine tuned scopophilia. [01:09:00] He was addicted to looking. The cover of his 2009 book of poems, Skin Hunger, has the book's title and his own name projected onto the flesh of a male torso. This is an image that had had to be dreamed of before it was made and carefully preplanned before it was photographed in dark light, David wrote in the Dialect of Desire. Desire [01:09:30] is a dialect he uses for all his writing, and it adds stings to his phrasing. From neighbourhood Watch your smoke signals lure me to the balcony reflected in the glass balustrade. I see your hand cigarette poised. I see your stomach. I see the nipples of your chest. Your head is cut off. David cherished the writings of Walt Whitman and Constantine Cava. [01:10:00] Like those poets, he was inspired by yearning by craving by wanting by thirsting the title poem. Skin Hunger articulates this need. This poem is written in mucus. It is written in Come, it is written in tears. The poem is about you. This poem is about the span of you, the way you hinge and flex your sublime architecture. This poem is about the grip of you, your caress, [01:10:30] your approaches and withdrawals. This poem is about the alliance. No, the allegiance of skin, The prints you left, the little damages. It is not finished. David Lindon Brown's books are hard to find. All were printed in small runs by boutique publishers or some were self published. Few people and few libraries own complete sets of his publication. [01:11:00] That's a sad fact, I think. David began his writing in the 19 nineties, and his first collection of stories is the 2001 Calling the Fish and Other Stories. And to prepare this, I reread everything David wrote that had been published, and I really recommend if you haven't read it for a while. Calling the fish needs to be returned to was followed by Mark man in 2007 last year, David told me that he was working on [01:11:30] a novel that he thought could never be published. I don't know what the future of that manuscript will be, and some of you will know that during the last couple of years, David wrote four really perceptive reviews and thank you, William Dart for inviting those to happen for Art New Zealand. He recounts one story that he learned from Douglas Wright that could also have been about himself. And I asked Douglas if I could read this, and he's quite happy about it. So this is this is David. Recalling Douglas's story, Wright [01:12:00] tells me that when he was a little boy growing up in the South Auckland township of he had an overwhelming urge to dance in suburban New Zealand in the 19 sixties. This was inconceivable. As Wright's mother, Pat, says, and haunting Douglas. It just wasn't done. Boys played rugby, end of story. So Wright sublimated this urge into gymnastics, the old the closest sport there is to dance, and at this naturally, Douglas excelled. When this excellence [01:12:30] was rewarded or praised, Wright's classmates would sidle up, murmuring shame shame, shame, Of course, those boys knew instinctively what little Douglas was up to. They knew that beneath the obfuscation of gymnastics lay something unspeakable, and they felt compelled by tradition and the culture of the land to censure him for a daring to excel and B exemplifying the sissy. I want to read four very brief extracts from four stories and calling the [01:13:00] fish the first paragraph of cracked. You want to grow some skin. That's what you want to do. Godfrey Sweet sliced a potato in half and inserted a slither of butter. He waited for the butter to melt and then quartered it. And some teeth, she continued. And some guts. Godfrey proceeded to bisect a sausage. Sometimes he wondered why he'd ever bothered to get married. David adored the space between words written and since taken, [01:13:30] and this is a technique well used by who hung meaning to on the gap between meaning and suggestibility. That, as you all know, is one of the essences of camp demarcated by Susan Sontag in David's favourite essay, where Susan writes to snare a senses and words, especially one that is alive and powerful, one must be tentative and nimble. And here is the opening to Spanish steps, which is about Kerry Lee, who was David's closest friend [01:14:00] at Elam Art school. And Kerry's mother came to New Zealand with my mother. So I knew Kerry well when I was a child, Kerry rattles his Bangles. He threads them onto his right wrist when he drives the bod car to lend glamour to his hand signals. The car is an ugly shaped vlo painted a raucous Fanta colour, the sort of car that could have flames spurting up its sides, the kind that real men drive. [01:14:30] With a sneer and an elbow out the window, the Bangles add a free song. For David, that short story was both reportage and evidence. It's a memory of Kerry's provocations, where he laughed off the way gay men were treated in New Zealand in the 19 sixties. Irony is a vehicle Camp Perspectives. David's story, The Mortification of Henry James [01:15:00] begins. Henry James was a man of impeccable habits. He was pure of heart and clean of body. Each day. He rose at least two hours before he was due to start work in order to present a pleasant appearance after a light breakfast of one of three cereals he ate in strict rotation. He took a full bath and then rinsed himself under the shower because he had heard somewhere that the Japanese ER race he held in high regard for their cleanliness were horrified at the Western custom of just stepping out of a bath [01:15:30] full of one's own filth. He then took a fresh towel, dried himself carefully and slipping into this powder blue terry cloth kimono approached the mirror. Henry James took great pleasure in the ritual of shaving, a procedure most men find irks. He loved the way that the stubble came away beneath the blade, leaving his skin soft and glowing pink. I think every word in that paragraph has been so carefully chosen that we recognise the elegant of thickness tinged with the tonality [01:16:00] of committed narcissism. David's writings cherish human foibles, as if he, if as if they were secrets, proving we are real. His powers of observation mirror our discomfort, especially when we find it difficult to cope with appearances that signal difference aloneness that would signal uniqueness, that specialness of individuality that can, for some people, also be a visible visual cross which they wear. And, um, the story [01:16:30] of hope is a story washed with challenging moments of pain and triumph that begins hope. Fuller was not only cursed with that name, she was afflicted with a Port Weinstein that ran down the side of her nose and bled onto her cheek. This defect had not only marred her looks. It has also disfigured her personality hope. Fuller easily took Umbridge and was quick to point out the shortcomings of others. It was as though her birth mark had given her special privilege to criticise, [01:17:00] and she made no attempt to cover up the market and sometimes seemed to flaunt it by choosing a matching shade of lipstick. It looked as if in a fit of madness or boredom, she had scribbled in the middle of her great big face. And then the story concludes, the only sound to be heard in the aisles of Pack and Save was the Musa version of the way we were. The customers shuffled and stared, the handprints stinging, hopeful as Cheeks merged [01:17:30] with her birth mark so that it looked as if she was wearing a purple veil and a kind of trance. She retrieved the cash register, plugged it and sat down to the checkout store and began automatically passing the backlog of groceries over the scanner and gradually soothed by the rhythm of her vocation, the look of her face metamorphosis from one of fury to one of ineffable victory. So I reckon David Linden Brown had much more writing within [01:18:00] him. When speaking of the novel he was writing, he described how he would use it raw, and it would use raw and honest language. I saw in David's eyes that look. I long remembered the look of curiosity, the look of defiance and the look of self-worth. There are other parts of David's life, which I have not mentioned this afternoon. Many of you will be aware of his creative mentoring of others. We remember you, David. [01:18:30] Thank you so much. Ron. That was wonderful. Uh, we really have run out of time. Um, I would like to remind you all that our writers will be sitting out at the signing table. I think they all have books out there. They're more than welcome to purchase or just come and chat with them. Ask them questions. Thank you very very much for attending much. Appreciate it.

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TITLE: Kevin Hague profile
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VOICES: Kevin Hague
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; ACT New Zealand; AIDS Support Network; AZT; All Blacks; Alliance for Justice; Anti Bigot Committee (formerly the Alliance for Justice); Anti Springbok tour march (1985); Anti Springbok tour protest (1981); Anti-Apartheid Movement; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Barack Obama; Bastion Point; Chris Finlayson; Civil Union Act (2004); Crimes Amendment Bill (1979, Warren Freer Bill); David Garrett; David Lange; Education Review Office (ERO); Fran Wilde; Gay Blue Jeans Day; Gay Liberation Auckland; Gay Liberation week; Geoffrey Palmer; Grafton; Grant Robertson; Green Party; HIV / AIDS; Haka Party Incident (1979); Hamilton; Hamilton Boys High School; He Taua; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Human Rights Act (1993); John Key; Katherine O'Regan; Keith Locke; Kevin Hague; Lou Sheldon; Louisa Wall; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Matt Whyte; Maurice Williamson; Member of Parliament; Mike Moore (politician); Māori; National Party; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand First; New Zealand Herald; New Zealand Labour Party; Occupation of Bastion Point (1977-78); Out (magazine); Parliament buildings; Pasifika; Peter Wall; Pharmaceutical Management Agency (Pharmac); Queen Street (Auckland); Richard Flinn; Royal Forest and Bird Protection Society of New Zealand; Russel Norman; Salvation Army; Simon Upton; South Africa; Sue Bradford; Te Reo Māori; Thin Edge of the Wedge (film); Tim Barnett; United Kingdom; University of Auckland; Waiheke Island; Warren Freer; Wellington; West Coast; West Coast District Health Board; academics; actions; activism; advocate; age of consent; anti discrimination; anti-homophobia campaign; apartheid; arrest; belonging; bisexual; book selling; books; bullying; campaigns; church; civil unions; climate change; closeted; collaboration; coming out; crime; cycling; death; direct action; discrimination; effeminate; environment; equality; friends; funeral; gay; gay liberation movement; gay panic defence; gender reassignment surgery; glass ceiling; government; haka; hate; health; health rights; homelessness; homophobia; homophobic bullying; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; hospice; housing; human rights; identity; identity politics; injustice; institutional homophobia; intersex; justice; language; liberty; march; marriage; marriage equality; mask; maths; mental health; murder; peer support; petition; petition on historic convictions; physics; poverty; prevention; pride; provocation defence; public health; queer; racism; radio; relationships; religious homophobia; research; rugby; safe sex; safe space; safety; school; school uniform; self esteem; so gay; social media; stereotypes; student politics; suicide; suicide prevention; support; survivor guilt; trans; transgender; university
DATE: 13 September 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: On the eve of his departure from Parliament, MP Kevin Hague reflects on his time in politics as well as earlier activism around apartheid, racism, homosexual law reform, public health and HIV AIDS.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So I'm 56. Um, I've been doing this job for eight years. Uh, that's the longest I've spent doing any job at all. And I guess my background as an adult has been in, um, several different fields, but mainly health, Uh, and a bit of book selling. Uh, and, uh, before that, I guess so. My university training [00:00:30] was originally in, um, maths and physics, Uh, with a smattering of other things, a bit of stage three English. Uh, I've got most of a B A in Scandinavian studies. And at post grad level, I've done, um, public health. So epidemiology and biostatistics and health, economics and so on. But you were actually born in the United Kingdom. Yeah, I was. I was born in England, and [00:01:00] I lived there till I was 13. So my family was, uh, probably, uh, I would say, upwardly mobile working class. So we lived in a semi-detached house that we rented from the council. Um, both of my parents worked two jobs. Um, and, uh, I know that their thinking this is back in 1973 was that if we stayed in England, [00:01:30] we would never be able to afford a house kind of a familiar sounding problem right now in in in New Zealand. Um, and that the opportunities for for us their kids would be would would be limited. You know, they, you know, they couldn't see how we could ever go to university, for example. So they had some friends who who had been living in New Zealand, and, uh, so [00:02:00] expressed an interest. Someone sent over a job ad for my dad, and, um, he got the job. And so we moved to Hamilton. So I did my secondary schooling in the 19 seventies in Hamilton, then on to Auckland University after that. So what was coming to New Zealand, like at the age of 13? It was it was kind of, um it was more exciting than anything else. I mean, I guess, uh I mean, I was leaving behind, [00:02:30] you know, friends and family, but actually, that didn't seem quite so important because of the the excitement, the opportunity there were. There were downsides. So my first day at school at Hamilton Boys High, I had to wear my English school uniform, um, which consisted of, you know, long trousers, shirt and tie blazer. you know, in a school that was kind of like, [00:03:00] uh, very different school uniform to that, and that attracted quite a bit of attention from other boys and I. I know that. I went home after that first day and pleaded with my mother sort of age 13. You know that we had to go into town to actually buy the school uniform. And in retrospect, I sort of look back and I cringe about it because I'm sure that that my mother spent money that that we needed [00:03:30] for furniture, food, you know, on a on a school uniform for me, which was probably actually not really at the top of the priorities. Um, but so, yeah, I mean, quite so quite a different different culture and sort of I moved into a class that was, you know, probably. So I left at the end of form two in in England and started in the final term of form four in in New Zealand. So sort of missed [00:04:00] out a bit of a chunk. So that meant that I was in a class with kids who were a bit older than me, which was probably a little bit challenging as well. So was there much homophobia at Hamilton Boys High school? Yeah, absolutely. You know, homophobia was pretty much the dominant component of the culture of the school. You know, that's so the a lot of, um homophobic, taunting, teasing, [00:04:30] bullying, you know, the if if someone wanted to insult, you know another person, it would be a homophobic slur that would that would be used. So it was a It was a pretty, um, scary environment in which to start to realise that maybe you're a bit different. Um, and certainly, you know, it's it's it's fantastic to nowadays see kids [00:05:00] coming out, you know, in in school and actually getting some support. Um, I at the time that I was at school, it would have been unthinkable for for a boy to to come out. And certainly if they had, there would have been no support whatsoever for them available in the school. So, you know, it was, you know, a very strongly homophobic environment. So when did you come out? [00:05:30] I guess I started coming out. Um uh, in terms of acknowledging to myself that I that I was gay, I would say it's It's that started in 1977. So that was the year after I left school. Um, but I guess the assumption of heterosexuality was was so strong that [00:06:00] I guess I assumed that I must be bisexual because, you know, that was kind of the available alternative. And stereotypes of of gay men were also extremely strong, very effeminate. And that that wasn't how I felt. So, like, I didn't I didn't feel like I fitted that that category. So, um yeah, so it assumed to begin with that I was bisexual. I probably went on my first [00:06:30] gay liberation March events, you know, and, uh, 1978. I think then I actually acquired a girlfriend, which was kind of also confusing. And it lasted for sort of probably about a year, 18 months. And then after that, I was probably clear in my own mind that I wasn't bisexual. I was gay. And, um and so So [00:07:00] that period from 77 through to I guess 81 was quite a confusing time of a gradual identity development for me and sort of some steps backwards. And and and then bigger strides forward. Not an uncommon story, actually Yeah, for for men of my age. Yeah, The late seventies was a time when, um, gay liberation was really heating up. Was that the kind of first political activism that you [00:07:30] had been involved in? Not quite. So I was. I was getting involved in that. Actually, it's kind of an interesting question because, I mean, I had been involved with, you know, school council and some political activism as a school student. But I was getting involved in student politics in sort of late 78 as well. But when I think about it, I can remember quite deliberately, in 1977 [00:08:00] and 78 uh, participating in a thing called, um Blue Jeans Day, which, which was part of the sort of gay lab on campus, you know? So it was sort of gay Lib week. And the idea was that, you know, if you were gay, you would wear jeans to to university and the like. It had had a built in defensive mechanism because, of course, probably most students wore jeans most days, and so [00:08:30] if it if it actually got you into a spot of bother, like if you encountered ho homophobia, well, Actually, you could just be an ordinary student wearing jeans. Um, and so there was, you know, actually quite a sophisticated mechanism. But, you know, I remember sort of wearing wearing jeans and feeling extraordinarily brave. Um, it was also a time of a lot of, uh, I guess. Hm. [00:09:00] Uh, identity, identity, politics and and conflict within the community. I remember not sure if it was the first gay march that I went on down Queen Street because I was in Auckland. Well, maybe so. I was either 78 or 79 where the the lesbian women and the gay men marched separately because there was a major disagreement in the style of the march [00:09:30] and about Well, some proportion of the men marched with masks on because they actually didn't want to be recognisable. So they wanted to be on a march, you know, actually taking that brave step, but not to be recognisable. And that was reflective of the culture of the time. It was a a very closeted and fearful culture and four marches. How did how did the kind of public on the street respond to the marches? [00:10:00] I'm not sure that I can remember accurately, Really. It's, uh, it It felt like almost that the the point of it was not so much, um, an externally facing things sort of engaging with the community as an internal act of pride or identity. Um, I mean, I think if I remember rightly, the the the response was more [00:10:30] amazement than than anything else, you know, it was, you know, it wasn't a really supportive crowd that was supporting us. It wasn't particularly a homophobic crowd. Although that was, you know, there was an element of abuse being, you know, shouted at at, um, at us, but I think it was more just incredulity, you know, because most straight people in their lives were not aware that they knew, um, any gay or lesbian person. Um, which kind [00:11:00] of was the what we had to address as we were as we were moving towards law reform because 1979 we had the Fair amendment, you know, So it's one of the first kind of campaigns for law reform that I was involved in Was was, you know, in 79 and my involvement was, you know, very much going on a demonstration or two I might have written a letter to the paper. Possibly, you know, something like that. But, um [00:11:30] uh, sort of very, very baby steps. And that Warren Freer bill fell through. Was it because of the age of consent? Yeah, it was. I mean, so So I mean, in retrospect, and I can't say that I was I was particularly, You know, I wasn't at that time involved in the leadership of our community, but, um, essentially, the community would not support, um, an attempt to change the law that had an unequal age of consent. And I believe [00:12:00] that that, you know, that was absolutely the right position to take. And I'm really proud of the the people who who did make that decision. And of course, what that meant was when we actually came to law reform with Frans Bill in in 85. Um, you know, we were strong and united on that point, you know, there. I mean, of course, there were a few voices that said, you know, we have to compromise. We should compromise on on that point. [00:12:30] Um, as the UK had done, of course. Um, but, uh, that was clearly rejected by most in the community. The early eighties also saw a lot of other, um, things being protested like apartheid. The Springbok tour in 81 Bastion Point. Were you involved in any of that? Kind of, Yeah. So the the the big occupation of Bastion Point was in 78 and I wasn't, [00:13:00] um I wasn't involved in that occupation, but the the it I mean, it started me thinking, and then we had the, um, the incident in 79 at Auckland University. And that's a group of engineering students had on an annual basis, they'd had a kind of capping week stunt where they put on grass skirts and sort of [00:13:30] sort of body painted obscenities on on their bodies. And they performed an obscene mock haka so they would invade lecture theatres and and do this performance, and that over many years, in fact, Maori had engaged with that, you know, tried to engage with them to actually say, um, you you probably don't realise it. You probably think this is just good fun. But actually, uh, what you're doing is really very highly offensive [00:14:00] to us, and and we respectfully request that you stop doing that you know. So it had been that nature of engagement, and nothing had happened. Um, and in 79 a group of group of young Maori people, uh, essentially went to the engineering school where the students who were practising their performance and confronted them. There was a bit of, um, you know, it was a physical confrontation. [00:14:30] Um, and that led to the arrest of the Maori, of course. And the arrest of the of the engineering students. Um, and that led to, like, a really, um, profound experience, uh, spending I spent probably the day a full day of a forum in the university quad where literally for the whole day, thousands of students were held spellbound [00:15:00] by a debate. A debate around, um, Aro around what had happened, you know, And, uh and was it just good fun or or was there some cross cultural obligation that that had to to Maori and was violence OK, um, was it a reasonable response, you know, to the you know, the cultural violence that had been done so [00:15:30] actually a really important debate, and certainly for me that that that day changed many of my attitudes and I moved from being someone who was initially initially My political alignment was as a young national, um, which a lot of people might be surprised about nowadays. Um, And so, uh, the that that day, [00:16:00] I think, probably was the seminal moment in changing my views and actually making me think more deeply about What does liberty mean? You know, and, um, this the the whole question of balancing liberty and, um, equity. And, um, you know, from that day on, I sort of sort of changed a lot of the ways that I went about my work and so involved in student politics. I was I was the president of the Students Association [00:16:30] in 1980 1980 sort of late 1980. And in 1981 I was very heavily involved in the anti apartheid movement. Um, so I was one of probably about 15 or 20 people who were, uh, involved in late 1980 in the in planning the anti apartheid, uh, demonstrations and strategy in Auckland, um, and then went on [00:17:00] through through the course of 1981 failing all of the courses I'd enrolled in, Um, because I was, you know, 100% committed to to the movement. And, um, towards the end of that, you know, we got, uh, the the involved with the anti movement really got challenged by the Maori who had been involved saying, Well, it's really cool that you're involved in this campaign against racism in South Africa, but I don't know if you know, but actually, [00:17:30] many of these same issues, you know, apply here as well, you know, they're not called Bantu stands, but come out to visit, you know, and, um and see, you know, people who are, you know, effectively, completely ghettoised, um, living in poverty. Um, and the Soweto, uh, protest and massacre was sparked by black South African school kids not being able to speak their own language in school. [00:18:00] Well, you know, have a look at the status of Maori language in this country and what's happening in our schools. So I mean, I tried to take that on board, and so certainly those next few years I started, uh, work in the book trade, but also kind of continuing my engagement. Um, really, on particular issues of racism, Um, and of course, leading into sort of 1980 [00:18:30] um 80 85 I guess, uh, I the the the the flat that I I lived in. And all of the people I associated with with were all heavily involved with homosexual law reform. Um, and the anti apartheid movement and, um, anti-racism issues here in So So we were active across a broad range [00:19:00] of issues at one point, I, I kind of suggested, since we were going along to all of these demonstrations, and actually, regardless of what the issue was, it seemed to be more or less the same group of people there. We should just rather than have multiple organisations just rename ourselves the Alliance for Justice. And, um uh, yeah. I mean, uh, it felt it felt great to be part of [00:19:30] a movement that believed in fundamental change to the the way that we love Where do you think that energy comes to fight injustice for many people? They don't You know that that they just don't have the energy to fight. So where does it come for you? Oh, yeah, I don't know I. I mean, I really I really, um I mean I I know that [00:20:00] that for me, I mean, the I mean, years ago I heard a kind of a version of what I what I know is actually thousands of years old and and actually originated with some rabbi, actually, that you know, if if not me, then who and if if not now, then when? And for me, that really is kind of an organising principle for me. So if I if I see an injustice, I, I don't know, [00:20:30] I don't know how it's possible to be content knowing that, um, others are living in unjust circumstances because, uh, the the the the source of the containment is typically not something that you've done yourself. It's actually largely the product of circumstances, the lottery of life over which you have no control. Um and so the corollary [00:21:00] of that is that that's the same for the person who's who's living the the the non privileged life. Um and so it just It just seems to me kind of obvious that that you know that those who are advantaged should be working to ensure that that everyone enjoys those same opportunities and the you know, and there's obviously in in the work that I do for the green party and over many years and the work [00:21:30] that I will be doing in Forest and Bird, there's there's, uh, an allied or parallel voice around the environment, too. You know that, Um, the you know, it feels like I have an obligation to ensure that the the environment is protected. You know, I don't know where that comes from, either. So so do you see things like, say, the homosexual law reform, [00:22:00] anti racism, anti apartheid? Are they all part of a larger struggle? Or do you see those as separate separate entities? I? I do see them as part of a larger struggle, which is a struggle for justice. I mean, so my my belief is that we should have a sustainable relationship with the Nat with the natural world that we should [00:22:30] have a fair society in which resources and opportunities are fairly shared and that we should have an economy that is engineered to deliver on both of those things. So, so much of I mean, so much of what I've worked on actually fits with that as a kind of an organising principle. Um I mean, I think within that of course you I mean you carve off individual things [00:23:00] as campaigns to work on at a particular time. And, um, I have to say that what I've done over the years is worked on particular themes, particular issues and then had a break from them and worked on other things very occasionally. Had a had a break on, worked on nothing. But it doesn't last for long because, you know, I see something that I think, you know, I could add value to that campaign. You know, I could I could make that more successful. [00:23:30] Um, and so II I can't be content doing nothing. So, going back to the mid eighties, what was your involvement with homosexual law reform? Uh, very largely, um, going on the demonstration. So there were, You know, we had demonstrations. My memory is pretty much weekly. You know, I remember, um, [00:24:00] picking an assembly of God, um, church that was going to have the Reverend Lou Sheldon visit to preach his torrent of hate. We and we took over the church, actually, and sort of took over the stage and occupied it for a while, and then couldn't think what else to do. So I left. Uh, I had, um and we you know, we had things outside the Salvation Army, and we would sort of we pick up some of the the [00:24:30] signature collecting for the for the hate petition. Um, I put in, you know, submissions in support of the bill. Um, my partner and I were both signatories to the big, um, herald ad that that was you know, we gay men and lesbians sort of demand that the that the bill go through. I forget the wording now, but something like that, um, I was I. I sort of formed [00:25:00] a group called the Anti Bigot Committee that, um we kind of we we it was a small group, and we did, um, individual actions. So actually, in in thin end of the wedge that that, um, that you curd one of the clips as an interview. Where? Where? Peter Wall, You know, great guy was, um, debating on TV N against, um Richard Flynn and Richard Flynn in the [00:25:30] clip. Sounds kind of, um, homophobic, but but not extreme, but actually in other contexts. He actually said that, um that the old testament is literally true and that gay men should be put to death. And so we went and picketed his church and, um, you know, so so basically, I mean, I mean, a lot of those. A lot of a lot of those actions were [00:26:00] not strategic, but they were more about an A an assertion, you know, a really emphatic assertion that we would not put up with that hatred any longer. Um, and coupled with the with the extremely active campaign to get people to come out, you know, in their workplaces and to their families. You know, I I'm really proud of of what we did. So again, I wasn't at that point in the leadership of that campaign. [00:26:30] I was involved in the leadership of the anti apartheid campaign that was successful, in fact, in 85 and stopping the All Blacks going to South Africa. Um, but, uh was kind of a foot soldier. That sort of got involved in all of the activities, but under someone else's leadership. And then, at the same time, we've also got the emergence of AIDS in in New Zealand. Um, when did you first become aware of AIDS? [00:27:00] I guess it's hard to know. I mean I, I would have. I think I probably I mean, I must have read whatever was in out and pink triangle, you know, which were our newspapers, newspaper magazines at the time. Um, I remember the first thing that I did was, um the I think the AIDS Support network had been in Auckland had been [00:27:30] and saying, Well, we need to We're gonna need to have a hospice. Um, and, uh, they had earmarked a building in Grafton that would have worked. And I think the I think the building was maybe owned by Auckland City Council at the time, and some of the graft and shopkeepers had said, Well, no, we don't want that kind of thing in our in our area. And, um, I lived in Grafton at the time, and so I [00:28:00] organised a sort of leaflet drop to to every household, basically organising a sort of community led response to the shopkeepers, saying, actually, don't don't speak for us, you know, we you know, the the, um this hospice would be welcome, you know, in in our neighbourhood. So that was actually the first thing that I did. And then in 19 88 so I've been working for. [00:28:30] So after I after I finished with, um, Homosexual Law Reform and and stopping the 85 Tour, I sort of went back into the book trade and worked for Polynesian Bookshop for a while. And then in 88 the AIDS Foundation contacted me and said, Well, they were looking for a gay man with political skills and organising skills to work on the human rights campaign. Because as part of of, [00:29:00] um of the the deal struck in 86 to get part one of homosexual law reform through with an equal age of consent, the necessary compromise had been to ditch Part two, which had been the anti discrimination legislation. And so the AIDS Foundation wanted me to come and work on a campaign to actually get that back, get that through into into law. So that's what I did for five years, and the [00:29:30] anti discrimination campaign was all about. I mean, at the time in the eighties, you could get discriminated by in terms of your employment or accommodation, or it's it's interesting when I talk to an audience of of young people nowadays and try to try to explain the that environment in in the 19 eighties, Um, and and and so why? Homosexual law reform was so important, but also, you know, explaining that environment where it was [00:30:00] completely legal, You know, for you to lose your job or your or not get a job or be denied goods and services, you know, show up at a motel with your partner and not be allowed to rent a room. You know, um or to be kicked out of your house. You know, the all of all of those sort of day to day practical consequences that people actually experienced, you know? So we did a big survey of people's experience and gathered a whole lot of stories of [00:30:30] people actually experiencing employment or accommodation or health care discrimination. Just illustrating why, you know, the the corrosive power of discrimination in our lives. So it was 1993 when the Human Rights Act came into force. That seems quite a long time. If you started in 1988 I mean, that's that's quite a long road, isn't it? And what I'd say I think is so in 88 [00:31:00] we thought it was going to be straightforward because we had a labour government at the time, and Labour was saying Yes. Yes, of course, we're gonna do it. Um uh, but they didn't, you know. And, um, and kept on putting it off. And I, I guess, Uh, I mean, people who think back on that time it was a pretty turbulent time for the for the labour government. They went through three prime ministers in that period from, um, [00:31:30] from from, uh, from, you know, and in in that 87 to 90 a parliamentary term. So David Long, he stepped down and Jeffrey Palmer took over, and then he stepped down, and Mike Moore took over, and, you know, and, um so we were fortunate that, um, at the at the very 11th hour. So probably 11, 45. Something like that. Um, [00:32:00] that, uh, Labour did introduce a bill to add grounds to the Human Rights Act Human Rights Commission Act as it was then because I think if they had not left government with that with with a bill actually on on the table, um, it's hard to imagine National having introduced it, at least in its first term as it was, uh, they, you know, national did inherit [00:32:30] a bill that was on the table, and, uh, and we were able to work with, uh, particularly the the national health team. So Simon Upton, who was health minister, and Catherine O'Regan who, of course, who in whose name the, um, the crucial bit of the legislation stood. And I think Morris Williamson, I think, was the other was the other, um, associate Health minister. And they, you know, they all supported [00:33:00] the the legislation and understood the health argument that we made, you know, to say that actually, discrimination and prejudice if you allow it to stand we create an environment where men who have sex with men will still be hiding will still be inaccessible to HIV prevention messages, um, and will and will have the low self esteem that goes with that hiding. Um, that we know is associated with being unable [00:33:30] to manage safe sex. So, um, you know, to their credit, you know that the health team from National understood the argument, and we were able to work closely with them to secure the numbers. In 1998 you became the executive director for the AIDS Foundation, and I'm just wondering, can you paint a picture of what I, I guess of the path of HIV aids in New Zealand from 1998 when you started at the foundation through to the [00:34:00] mid nineties, when the the the new drugs came in through to when you left the foundation in 2003, where you had things like the Internet was coming on stream. Social media? Yeah. I mean, I mean, it's extraordinary extraordinary change. Really. So, um, so listeners who remember the late eighties early nineties will remember it as a time where we had, um, kind of steadily increasing numbers [00:34:30] of of men. Um, testing positive, um, being diagnosed with AIDS and funerals, you know, funerals all the time, you know, And, um, you know, I you know, I I I still have a really, really high bar to going to funerals. You know, I'm just funeral out in my life. Um and, uh and I think that's probably something that [00:35:00] I mean most. Most New Zealanders have no conception of that, that we experienced AAA period of time. That was probably it's only it's only parallel would be war time. You know that that actually you know, significant numbers of our friends were dying around us at a young age. Um, And [00:35:30] for those of us, um, who weren't, you know, very often we're in the position that I was of of saying, Well, you know, I was lucky, you know? And so all of that survivor guilt that went with that, too. And, of course, at that time, we had no treatments at all or no effective treatments. Right towards the the end of my time at the AIDS Foundation, we were starting to use a ZT. But a ZT was being used, [00:36:00] actually, in a way that, um you know, really, it was a lottery as to whether it made your condition better or worse, Um, that the, you know, very highly, highly toxic drug, at least in the doses that it was being used. And and then when I came back to the foundation, um and, uh, so So I left the foundation in 93 after we'd secured, um, and the anti discrimination law came back in [00:36:30] 98 where actually, a whole lot of drugs, you know, had had started to become available, and they were having a sort of a life changing effect. Um, on men who men with HIV and sort of, you know, I had this experience of friends of mine who, um, had been to death's door literally on multiple occasions who were now living [00:37:00] well, and, um, and, you know, and a and a few who apparently had exactly the same circumstances who didn't make it, you know, um, and, um you know, so So it was a bittersweet time of of thinking If only Matt White. You know, my friend Matt White could have hung on just a little longer. You know, Maybe he'd still be with us. Um, but [00:37:30] at the same time celebrating, you know, other friends who did make it. And a lot of I guess the the the the real contrast in the time, you know, from in that second stint that I had at the foundation the, you know, much more advocacy around treatments. Um, a lot of a lot of my time was spent with pharmac and, you know, making the case for for new treatments for combination therapies. Um, [00:38:00] and, uh, with with some significant success, uh, and I would say a more sophisticated prevention campaign that actually was clearer that what we were doing was health promotion for gay men. Um, or gay and bisexual men. Um, and so we during that [00:38:30] time ran anti homophobia campaigns, you know that that on the surface had no relationship to to HIV, but we knew were actually strongly tied in to, um what was necessary to actually, um, to be able to prevent further transmission of HIV. Um, so much to much greater degree of sophistication and the work that we did, Uh, a real, um, [00:39:00] emergence of the importance of working specifically with Maori, Um, and beginning of something similar around Pacifica men. Um, yeah. And so so an incredible time. Really. I. I enjoyed that enormously. So you left the AIDS foundation in 2003 and then moved into being the chief executive of the West Coast District [00:39:30] Health Board. Yeah. So, uh, I mean, while I was at the at the AIDS Foundation. Actually, in the years in between my two AIDS foundation stunts, um, I had got increasingly involved in the health sector. So, um, So I had, um, worked for a regional health authority. I sort of run sort of [00:40:00] a a health consulting business of my own. Um, and, uh, And during that second stint with the AIDS Foundation, I had done a secondment to the Ministry of Health to right the New Zealand Public Health strategy. I'd become the chair of the New Zealand Public Health Advisory Committee. Um, I'd been a member of the National Health Committee. So so increasingly [00:40:30] involved in lots and lots and lots of the wider health sector leadership in in in this country. And, um, and at the same time, my So a lot of people assume that that that my partner and I moved to the West Coast from Waiheke Island, where we lived at the time, Um, as a means of of getting the chief executive role in in a district health board and sort of like we took the wooden spoon of the West [00:41:00] Coast. Actually, it was the other way around that we, um Ian and I, uh, we like our main leisure activity had been cycle touring. Um, and, uh, we were we. So every year we'd go on a big boat tour, and we always build in the West Coast and, uh, where Ian's dad originally came from. And so we had some sort of family links there. Um, but that wasn't the [00:41:30] the attraction. The attraction was the natural environment, in fact, and so as we were feeling that, uh, Auckland was starting to absorb Waiheke, um and it was probably wouldn't be long before it was a place that we didn't recognise ourselves. We were sort of casting our minds around about where we could move to that, Um, that wouldn't happen to and, um, and the West Coast came to mind, [00:42:00] you know, somewhere that we loved spending time and and so So we were looking for ways of being able to move to the West Coast. And then this job came up, and it seemed it seemed natural. What did you enjoy most about that time on the West Coast? Well, because I still live on the West Coast. Um, I you know, I there there was There were some specific health sector challenges that I liked. So, [00:42:30] um, the West Coast is the smallest of the DH PS. It's also the most smallest in terms of number of people and budget, but the the largest at the time. Anyway, in terms of geographic area, so everyone's very widely dispersed. And so what that meant was that the natural tendency that people have to think of health services and health in terms of hospitals and bricks and water [00:43:00] It seemed to me that that was gonna be less important on the West Coast, and people would understand that what was more important would be keeping people well in the communities that they were living in. And, um and and services that were that were provided in their communities. And so it proved. So I enjoyed that. I enjoyed the the challenge of innovation, trying to turn an organisation around to [00:43:30] think of itself as a centre of excellence for rural health services. Um, and it started doing things in a really innovative way. And so I'm really proud of of that that record. So what, then drew you to Parliament? Well, I think that I mean, the really the biggest thing was, uh, was climate change. So I mean is obviously I have been watching [00:44:00] the development of the Green Party and and a number of the people who were involved in the Green Party I think of you know, Russell Norman Sue Bradford. Keith Locke. You know, they they They were people that I'd known for many years, and I had been had worked on, um, various political issues over the years on, and so they were the natural fit for me. And I know I've been voting green for a while, and [00:44:30] I've been thinking, um, prior to the 2005 election, actually, you know, actually, I've probably got the skill set that actually could make a difference in parliament. And I actually had been approached by both labour and national to to become a candidate. And I thought, actually, you know, the Green Party is the party for me And, um so probably, I think, in 2000 and [00:45:00] six, I think for the first time, I first started chatting with Russell and saying, you know, I, I am sort of interested in becoming more involved. I'm desperately worried about the urgency of climate change and the lack of urgency and the political response to climate change. Um, in my original degree, the physics, atmospheric and oceanic physics. You know, this [00:45:30] is the physics of climate change, Um, and my sort of political and organising skills in the years subsequent. You know, I felt like I could make a contribution. And so from that point I started working towards being available to be a candidate in 2008, so I mean, it really was. Here's a place where I think I can make a difference. And is it what you expected? It is. [00:46:00] In many ways, I mean, I think, and of course, I was hoping that we would be in government and and And so my my scenario is all involved, uh, being being in in government and able to make change, and so it hasn't worked out like that. But the, um the kind of politics that I hoped to be able to deliver, which was a more collaborative style of politics than, [00:46:30] um Then, uh, I guess the public generally sees I have mostly been able to deliver on. So I have made a point of every day trying to think of something that's a little bit better because because I was there and, um uh, generally, you know, that's you know, I've I've been able to to achieve that, um, and have been able to work actually with members from right across [00:47:00] across the the the parliament to achieve things. I mean, I guess marriage equality is an example of that, um where I. I provided a lot of the back room strategy and coordination to make the parliamentary process work and a lot of the community liaison that was also important in that in that bill. And, um loved working with Lewis, of course. But you know, MP S from other parties [00:47:30] as well. So could you compare, say, marriage equality in the campaign for that with civil unions which happened in Was it 2004? Yeah. I mean, civil unions. And it's interesting because I, you know, having been involved in homosexual law reform and anti discrimination legislation and later on, you know, other campaigns campaign, culminating in marriage equality. I I never really got involved with civil unions, and and [00:48:00] I mean, partly that was my life circumstances at the time. And I was sort of busy busy making the transition to my West Coast role. But it was also I didn't really believe in the goal, you know, I, I I end up being in a a conversation with, um with several community leaders. Uh, probably probably, I think, 2000 late 2002, maybe. Maybe [00:48:30] early 2003, where we started talking through the strategic options. And to me, it always struck me that what we should be aiming for was marriage. Um, and a bit like, equal age of consent. I didn't think we should be, um, going and seeking a compromise option. So? So II I never got that enthused. Now, having said that, I think I was [00:49:00] probably wrong. You know, I think that we were able to achieve marriage equality at least in part because we had because we had achieved civil unions. So I think that Tim was right and I was wrong. And do you think that marriage equality would have happened in in the mid two thousands if you had gone straight for marriage? Equality? No, Definitely not. So I think it would have been a a long, [00:49:30] drawn out campaign. Um, and and in contrast, the campaign that we that we ran actually was It may have seemed long to to to some in the community, but actually that was crisp. You know that that we we we moved that from putting a bill into the ballot to having the third reading pass. Um, as quickly as it is possible [00:50:00] to move a member's bill through, um and, uh, and that was, despite having at that time a record number of public submissions and that it all happened through the goodwill and collaboration of MP S from from pretty, well, all parties across the house. Um and, um, yeah, I'm I'm really proud of that piece of work, and and And for me, I mean, as as a political strategy [00:50:30] wonk, I suppose the the what? What I what I especially loved about that from a process point of view, was was that, yeah, I was able to use stuff that I learned from lots and lots of of other campaigns over the years. And so we started out with our objective, and we work backwards from there, you know? Who are these votes that we need? How will we get them? [00:51:00] You know what will what will the things be that persuade them? What influences will they have on them from from, uh, the opposition that we need to find effective counters to who will be the most effective people to talk to them. Um what what's the, you know, public perception that we need to create, you know? So So a whole lot of a whole lot of learning went into that campaign, and, [00:51:30] you know, that's part of what led to its success. So why do you think marriage equality is important? Because, I mean, I've heard voices. I heard voices at the time of the legislation going through and subsequently saying that, um, there are bigger issues to be dealt with things like, you know, um, trans rights, poverty, homelessness. Well, the and I think there are. There are There are several issues at play here. So one [00:52:00] is, um I think that equal legal status is the big project that that, um, that I have been working on over so many years. Um, and this was the big missing bit. Um, and, uh, equal legal status is fundamental to creating a full sense of belonging. [00:52:30] Um, and that full sense of belonging, in turn, has impacts on important end points like HIV transmission, like suicide, like other mental health effects. Um, so that by creating that full sense of belonging, we, um we we are altering the environment that surrounds gay and bisexual [00:53:00] men, Um, to make it more likely that they will have good outcomes and less likely that they'll have bad outcomes. And that's fundamentally something that's really important to achieve. So first of all, you know, I, I don't accept that. It's not an important thing, I. I believe it's it was a very important thing to accomplish. Um, I'm not saying that it was more important than Trans rights, but the [00:53:30] other aspect of this is that politics is in many ways the art of the possible and, um, why that's important. I mean it. It crops up in two ways. One is that, um, achieving trans rights will now be more possible. Um, because of marriage, equality and a whole lot of transgender people actually got that and were heavily involved. [00:54:00] In fact, in the in the Campaign for marriage equality, um, and and also we had the opportunity to pursue marriage equality. We didn't have it on trans rights. So, um, the out of the possible means you take the opportunity that's there in front of you. And so actually the the the the opportunity was created by Barack Obama. Barack [00:54:30] Obama said, um uh, that he would he would probably vote for for marriage, Equality, gay marriage, of course, In the US context, Um, if he you know, if it if it cropped up, Um And that led to John Key being asked the question of where he stood. And because John Key has been, um, desperate to be Barack Obama's bestie, Um, he [00:55:00] you know, he had to say yes, but then he said, But I don't detect a clamour for it. So well, that was right there and then the opportunity. And so several of us set about creating a clamour. Um, and er it sort of went from there Another, uh, piece of legislation that that really kind of rings in my head is the abolishment of the provocation defence, the gay panic defence. [00:55:30] And I think, was it 2008? Um, yeah, it was certainly one of the very first pieces of legislation that that, um I became passionate about and actually probably was 2009 by the time it came through. But, um, I had a very early conversation with Chris, actually, and, um uh and sort of flagged that as something that would be worth doing. And, um, he accepted the case [00:56:00] for it. And, you know, it was a government bill that came through. But I was, um, extremely proud to kind of be part of of making that legislation, um, possible. Um, in my first reading speech on that bill, I began the speech, actually, with a A list, a list of the men who had been killed, um murdered [00:56:30] and their murderers, um, acquitted of murder, sometimes in some cases, acquitted of all charges. Um, because of the gay panic defence, you know that they they said Well, essentially, I had a AAA moment of of loss, of control, of my impulses because of the because of being unnerved by, [00:57:00] um, a homosexual advance. And so, actually, wiping that from the statute books, um, is something I'm very proud to have been part of. Where did that defence come from? Oh, actually, I don't know where it originally came from, but I mean, you can see that that the idea that was inherent in the defence, um, is that there's something so [00:57:30] inherently shocking about about gay men. Um, that we represent, uh, a disruption to the natural order of things, um, that it could justify killing another person. Um, and that, you know, that's, um I guess you know. So So, in some sense, it's it's origin is in the the climate of homophobia that has persisted for generations [00:58:00] centuries. Was there any opposition to its removal? There was, um and actually, when New Zealand first was not in parliament at the time, um, they have opposed every other piece of piece of legislation I can think of. But the, um uh, the act party who I think at the time had had four or five votes, voted against the bill and [00:58:30] they voted against the bill because the, um actually, not because of the gay panic aspect of it, but because the provocation defence more broadly was sometimes used by, um, women who had been exposed to, um, violent relationships, um, responding by killing their male partner. Um, [00:59:00] and so David Garrett, who spoke on behalf of the act party on on this issue, opposed the bill on that basis. Um, and I did make a point, actually, in one of my speeches of saying that, um uh, that while I, uh, didn't agree with the logic that had used, you know, I. I understood that that they were not opposing the bill for homophobic reasons and that you know that they [00:59:30] their position had been reached in good faith. What do you think? The significance of the removal of that defence has been, as with all of these legislative, um, uh, legislative steps and and also, um, not only the legislative slips, but other, uh, acts by the by government and by parliament. [01:00:00] See, the the main impact is not so much in the change itself. Um, but in its, uh, its signalling effect, um, to the gay community and and to the wider community about the the status, Um, of, uh, of gay men. So I believe that the existence of that, um, that defence [01:00:30] signalled to gay men and, um, and and to the wider community that we were an unnatural part of of New Zealand society, Probably not part of New Zealand society. Um, that, um that, uh, that we had no right to make any kind of sexual advance on on a another adult person. [01:01:00] Um, in the same way that a heterosexual person would consider to be an absolutely ordinary um, part of behaviour. So I think the the the main effect of the repeal will have been to change that signal to, um, to send a signal instead that that we are entitled to the full rights [01:01:30] of citizenship, um, and membership of society and that we are as much a part of the natural order as any heterosexual person is. But it's, you know, it's not just legislation, you know. One of the things that I really tackled head on was, you know, John Key, John Key's gay red shirt remark. You know, for example, you know, he was doing one of his, you know, falling around with commercial radio breakfast hosts, [01:02:00] and, um, and said on air, Well, that's a gay red shirt that you're wearing today, you know, And, um uh, and, you know, probably thought nothing of it, whereas for what? What immediately sprung into my mind was the effect on every young gay person who hears probably 20 or 30 times a day, or certainly at that time in their school [01:02:30] or the or the wider community that's so gay, you know, or like so gay being used as a term of, um discussed or, uh, diminishment. Um, and, um, and the the equivalent of, um when I when I was a kid, you know, the the and, um and so the pro for the prime minister To use that as a put down, [01:03:00] um, actually just reinforced that, um, that effect of of that signal. And so, uh, you know, I did what I could to to publicise and counter that you mentioned the word homophobia before, and I wondered, have you experienced homophobia in parliament? You know, I really haven't, um, and, um, die, which [01:03:30] which is fantastic. And it kind of, uh so even those MPs who, for example, voted against marriage equality that were were not homophobic towards me. There was not. There was no personal homophobia associated with their position. I mean, I believe that their their stance reflects almost an institutional homophobia, um, or religious homophobia in, as it was in most cases of those [01:04:00] who voted against. But, um, no, I mean everyone from the weird guy who has been, actually, uh, kind of respectful and supportive. I guess it probably reflects something about my wider observations about homophobia that, um I believe and of course, for the for the man who's in the closet. This is hard to believe, but I believe that, [01:04:30] um, homophobia expressed in a personal way. Um, so a targeted personal way is usually a response to, um, someone not having a strong gay identity themselves. And there are exceptions to that, of course. You know, we probably all know someone who's been beaten up or abused, Uh, and they're the the most positive out person you [01:05:00] could think of. But But in my experience, people respond. Most people respond positively to a strong, strong personal identity that that that a person has. So, you know, the When we moved to the West Coast, a lot of people assumed that we were sort of moving to the sort of backwater of sort of redneck homophobia. And then it would be absolutely awful. [01:05:30] That has not been our experience at all. So we've been, of course, out completely out since the day we arrived on the West Coast and have experienced not one incident of homophobia in the time that we've been there. And, you know, I believe that that's a that's a response to to our to our own strong, strong sense positive self identity, whereas the person who's kind of out kind of in the closet, [01:06:00] you know, actually hiding themselves, actually that that that that that position neither neither in nor out, um creates points of weakness that others, um, who have some malign purpose will exploit. But do you think there's a glass ceiling or a pink ceiling in Parliament that stops [01:06:30] a rainbow person either being a party leader or, for instance, becoming Prime Minister? Yeah, that's an interesting question, I. I mean, I, I think, um, so many people will be aware that last year I, um, sought the male co-leader of the Green Party and you know, Grant Grant Robertson, you know, did did the same thing for the for the Labour Party. And, [01:07:00] um, neither of us was successful. The no doubt those who didn't support us had multiple. You know, the the there was a a multiplicity of reasons I do know, Um, because I I encountered it in a very, very small number of cases, as I was sort of working through the the the Green Party that there were people who we're not expressing [01:07:30] a sort of a, um a personal homophobia or they wouldn't have identified as such. They probably thought of themselves as liberal minded and and, um, and supportive, but were kind of saying, but what what ordinary voters think, you know. And so so you know, I, I don't believe you know. So I do know that that was a factor for for For was a very small number of our [01:08:00] members. I don't think that was the reason that I was unsuccessful. Um, I'd be very, very disappointed if that were the case, and obviously, I don't know. I don't know about the Labour Party and sort of what stood behind. Sort of Grant not making it. Um, but, uh, you know, so there clearly is still a factor, but, um, just how strong it is, I'm not sure. And maybe it's It's, um, one of those things where [01:08:30] kind of everyone's making assumptions about everyone else, as opposed to anything that's real. Um I mean, no doubt. Um, and, uh, in a conservative party, you know that should you know, that would be a much more of a of of a real effect? Um, but I think Yeah, certainly in in our party, it's it's It's a very small, small thing indeed. Do you have any regrets about [01:09:00] your time in parliament in terms of, um, legislation that may not have got through or things that you were you were having to leave behind? I guess there's I mean, there are I mean, yes. Yes, there are. There are. There are regrets. There are, um, so, so for, um, for the rainbow community. I mean, the communities there are, there's a couple of projects that I've I've had on the go that, um, that that I'll be leaving unfinished, [01:09:30] um, ones around health rights for trans and intersex people, for example. You know, I sort of have fought on the health Select committee to try and get some progress. I believe there will be some progress. I think that there'll be some more money for, um, for surgeries. Um, not enough. And and not enough movement in the non surgical aspects of of trans health care. You know, that basically [01:10:00] being treated like human beings by health services as a reasonable as some, you know, expectation of every service interaction is one of the things I've been seeking without success. Um, I guess the, um the the other. The other big projects that I've been working on, um, it will start again in a moment. So the other big projects that I've been working on that are are are not finished. [01:10:30] One is, um, to make schools safer. I've I've sort of led a stream of work to actually say, How can we make um Society a safer place for our young people? Because one of my messages is, you know, as an adult gay man, things are immeasurably better for for me than they would have been in the 19 seventies. But for the 14 year old Kevin, now, actually, is it really that different? [01:11:00] You know, because still, you know, you may be in a school where there's, you know, no support. You may know of no other gay people. There are no role models around. Um and so so I've you know, been really pursuing that. And the way we're trying to get progress is to try and get the education Review office in its reviews of every school's obligation to create a safe environment for all students [01:11:30] to, um, as a mandatory component to be looking at the safety of LGBTI students um, because we did some work that showed that, um, in fact, most secondary schools are not safe places and that the education review office never picks that up. So we're very hopeful of getting some progress on that now, um, and I'm gonna have to leave it, so leave it to others to complete that work. And, [01:12:00] of course, the the petition That's just come to Parliament for a, um for a for an apology. And, um, and a reversal of convictions. You know, that's the other piece that I'm gonna need to leave behind. So that's the, uh, that's the, uh, dinner bell marking the end of of dinner time here in in Parliament. Um, and I'm just wondering to, um, to to wrap up the interview is how do you want to be remembered for your time in parliament? [01:12:30] Well, I guess, uh, I, I hope that our communities will think of me as having been, um, a brave and effective advocate. Um, who has done my best? Um, for for our wider communities and I, I hope more generally that, um, others will see me [01:13:00] as a person of integrity. Um, who has not been afraid to hold the government to account, but who's also been prepared to, uh, to work across party lines to achieve effective change.

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TITLE: Linda Evans - LGRRC and LAGANZ
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VOICES: Linda Evans
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 2010s; Alexander Turnbull Library; Amnesty International; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland War Memorial Museum; Barry Neels; Circle (magazine); Dorian Society; Gay BC (Wellington Access Radio); Gay Community Centre (Wellington); HIV / AIDS; Hecate Women's Health Collective Inc; Hocken Library (Dunedin); Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Homosexual Law Reform Society; Jack Goodwin; Katherine Mansfield; Kinsey Reports; Lesbian Feminist Circle; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Lesbian and Gay Rights Resource Centre; Linda Evans; Mika X; National Gay Rights Coalition; New Zealand Lesbian Conference (1974); Pink Triangle collective; QUILTED BANANAS (Wellington Access Radio); Robin Duff; Sisters for Homophile Equality (SHE); Waxing Moon Archives Collective; Wellington; Wellington Lesbian Centre; Wellington Women's Resource Centre; World War 2; activism; alcohol laws; anger; archives; arson; badges; bisexual; capitalism; civil rights; community; community centre; copyright; dance; ephemera; fa'afafine; facebook. com; fag; feminism; gay; gay liberation movement; harassment; heterosexism; heterosexist society; homosexual law reform; identity; integration; internet; intersex; lesbian; lesbian feminism; library; march; membership list; news; newsletter; newspapers; oral history; patriarchal system; photography; police; politics; posters; queer; racism; sexism; social media; takatāpui; transgender; visibility
DATE: 11 September 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: On the 30th anniversary of the arson attack (11 September 1986) on the Lesbian and Gay Rights Resource Centre in Wellington, LAGANZ curator Linda Evans reflects on what it meant for archiving of rainbow taonga in Aotearoa New Zealand. Linda also talks about LAGANZ (Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand) and highlights some of the many taonga in their collections. To learn more about LAGANZ visit their website
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Linda. It's been 30 years since the arson attack on the lesbian and Gay Rights Resource Centre. I'm just wondering, can you give me a bit of background on the centre and the collections that it held? Yes, the Lesbian and Gay Rights Resource Centre that was set up originally in about 1977 under the National Gay Rights Coalition, which was a, um, umbrella, um, group National Group. One of the few times there has been an attempt at an actual national organisation to, um and basically it was, [00:00:30] um, archiving the resources of the coalition, um, archives from other groups, uh, serials. You know, magazines, um, newsletters that came from around the country and overseas. Um, and also the archives of the Pink Triangle, Um, newspaper come magazine, which was really important, um, source of news and information in New Zealand in the seventies and eighties. And so the the centre was administered [00:01:00] by a trust there had been, um, you know, archivists there were sorry. Archivists and librarians involved with it. Things were, um, you know, reasonably well documented and organised. And it, um it held it. It held a lot of, um, material. Um, that had been used during the, uh, homosexual law reform campaign. If we're talking about the A by the time we get to the arson attack, it held that and also, um, one of its areas of its specialty and expertise was HIV [00:01:30] AD. And, um, a lot of information was produced, and so on, so but we're talking almost like a transitional period because there was the, um, national gay rights. Um, centre in is there in street. And this is an amazing building. Um, old building that got, um you know, uh, de demolished during the redevelopment of Wellington and in the late eighties, uh, of that area, um, [00:02:00] where there were actually quite a lot of activist groups. So the, um, gay community centre that was very important during the law reform campaign. It was in in the big basement area, Um, the Women's Resource Centre and Women's Health Centre were on the ground floor. I think they were really important. Lots and lots of, um, you know, drop in meetings. Lots of activities from there. Um, there was a lesbian centre there, and there are other you know, organisations like Amnesty International and so on. They had offices there. So it was a whole an old building [00:02:30] with lots of smallish spaces for offices and meeting rooms, and a few people lived there, which did turn out to be, um, quite crucial when the fire happened in September, Um, 1986 Because there were people on hand who who detected the fire. So it actually could have been a lot worse. Um, well, and of course, it could have been a lot worse had anyone being killed, But they the people who were there, had seen, um a couple of young guys [00:03:00] hanging around and, um, were able to give a description and so on to the police. But, uh, it sounds like, you know, people on the scene, um, fought the fire initially. And then when the fire brigade came, they were fairly, um, careful, uh, given the material that was there. But of course, you can't. Even even in big libraries and institutions, you can't completely avoid water. So so was the resource centre, um, specifically targeted for us. It seems to be Yeah, well, that's where the [00:03:30] fire was. The fire was set in a The resource centre was the biggest room fire was set in the corner of the room and material was, um in that corner was destroyed. And that was a lot of that was what, um what archivists call ephemera? Um, which is really important to communities like ours because it's the the, um advertising we produce. So it's posters. It's flyers. It's information about what's, you know, events that are going on. It's the kind of material that's produced for immediate [00:04:00] use rather than long term keeping. But archives like to, of course, gather that because it gives a really good picture of of the activities. At the time, quite a lot of some of the, um, like manuscripts and photos were in cabinets or further away from the fire, so they weren't so badly damaged. The, um, some of the serials, though, which is like a news newsletters, um, magazines, um, from New Zealand and overseas were damaged. And some of the, um, pamphlets that we had books [00:04:30] were sort of in were singed. So we've got you know, there is evidence of the damage in the collection. Still, and do you think the arson was related to homosexual law reform, which had passed a few months earlier, Or was it something completely different? Well, because the word fag was written on the scene. Um, I think it definitely was related to, um, anti gay, anti lesbian, anti law reform stuff. And the homosexual law reform campaign had stirred [00:05:00] up a lot of, um uh, violence. Really? I mean, they really I mean, there always were was sort of some abuse and people being beaten up on the street, and that kind of thing happened. Um, but it really the because all the quite vitriolic anti stuff stirred up and in a lot of, um, hostility and anger. And, um, and quite a lot of young guys [00:05:30] because that sometimes in the street, you know, there were there were groups that would have a stall and there would be quite a young men on them. And so, you know, I mean, you can think about all the different ways people respond if they feel threatened personally or if they have any questions about themselves. I mean, there's lots of analysis you could bring to bear on it, but there were I think there were really some very stirred up young men around town and did the police ever find out who did it? No. No. So what do you think? The significance of the arson was [00:06:00] on the on the direction of archiving rainbow material in New Zealand. Well, it did mean that safety and security were prioritised, maybe more than they would have been in the previously, because it was clear how vulnerable any collection like that could be. The, um, archives were supported by, um, librarians and archivists in salvaging their material and in particular, staff from the Turnbull Library. And the Turnbull Library [00:06:30] has always ongoing had an interest in helping people, um, to look after their material with, if whether it's in the library or in other places. And the national libraries, you know, preserve conservators have worked with all kinds of other community organisations. So it's, you know, it was part of that tradition and staff did assist, um, and that led to discussion about an arrangement with the Turnbull Library where the collection would be secure and safe. But the Turnbull Library is a research library. So then you're bringing that [00:07:00] collection into a library, um, where it will be treated like other research collections, which means it's not a place people can easily walk into and browse the collection. And so that in a way, you ended up we ended up with the safety, um, being, uh, becoming a concern that we always needed to think about. But I don't. You see, in a way you could say then that we ended up with an arrangement that has benefited [00:07:30] us in the long term. If it was a time when the in the in the late eighties, when a lot of, um, lesbian and gay archives around the world were, um, finding it hard to keep going, And part of that was the, um, impact of HIV AIDS and other things, you know, the kind of gentrification that was happening here meant premises were harder to get. There were all kinds of things going on. And so a number of archives, um, in other countries ended up either [00:08:00] ceasing to exist or coming to an arrangement with, um, a bigger institution. And so for us, you know, the no doubt that the, um, fire the arson attack drove that to happen more quickly. Probably. But it would. It's something that was happening anyway, because for for other reasons and so What is the, uh, status now of lag ans in relation to the Turnbull? Well, um, the It's basically a similar agreement that the the [00:08:30] lesbian and gay archives are owned by a community trust on behalf of the community so that the anyone who gives material to lag ans gives it to the trust and the trust has an agreement with the Turnbull Library that the library will house the collections and provide access to the collections. So the trust, um, you know, acquires material discusses, um, offers and donations and that with with, um, donors who who want to give us material [00:09:00] and then, um, deposits us in the Turnbull and anyone who wants to use it comes and uses it in the Turnbull library and and, um and the Turnbull assists, um, in that, uh, providing access to the collections. So why do you think it's important to collect rainbow material specifically? Well, I think it's really I think it's really important to know all the varied aspects of our histories. I. I think that is just incredibly [00:09:30] important. And when I think of what I the time I spent trying to find traces of lesbians, you know in the public library and any library you could go into talking to people looking for clues. Um, I think I don't want all of the work that those of us in the seventies onwards did, um, to record, um, our existence to be lost so that someone else has to start again. I think it's really, really because I think all the [00:10:00] things that happen around our communities ebb and flow. But I think it's really important for us to have keep our histories and to make them available to each to each other. So we're keeping them for our own sake for the for the, um LGBT people in the future, um, and the wider community because I think it's a really important part of the New Zealand story that, um that all these communities existed. Um, they continue to exist. They have a big impact on New Zealand culture. They have, [00:10:30] um, contributed to a lot of changes and developments in the country. And it's I mean, one of some one of the aspects for me is just that basic thing of visibility which goes back to the seventies. You know, politics and that that it's so important for us all to be visible. So can you comment on depositing, say, with which is, uh, a specific archive of interest versus depositing with a more generalist kind of institution [00:11:00] that's collecting general material? It's, um I think it's really interesting. It's like, No, there isn't a right answer. I wanted to say that for the start, but, you know, I mean, obviously my I work for the Alexander Turnbull Library. My, um, volunteer work is for the lesbian and gay archives, and so I appreciate both kind of sites of collecting, but, um, so So I think, you know, it's just that just for people who've got material to consider where they would like it to be, what context they would like [00:11:30] it to be in the, um if if a material is deposited in leg ends, I guess it's going to be, um, handled by people who have, um, a good idea of the context that it was created in how it relates to other similar material and material of the time. Um, and the ability to, um, you know, describe it maybe in a richer way, because of being aware of those relationships. Um, but say if someone [00:12:00] lives in the then it's important that the archives has a record of who The communities that were in the in the So you know, either It's good, I think, to have, um, material say in LA ends, but knowledge of it in the in the local archive or the other way around. And we're all las are always really interested to hear from any other archival or historical societies. If they have material that's relevant because, you know, you know, [00:12:30] and so we can tell researchers and tell community members about it, Um, I think if you are deposited, say, in one of the larger, you know, libraries, the research libraries, there's special collections in Auckland. There's the Auckland Um Memorial Museum. There's a library in Dunedin. There's libraries throughout the country. Um, then your material is more likely to be, um, findable on a database. So you you sort of Lagos can provide that more specialist knowledge, [00:13:00] but we don't have all the tools. Um, just at the moment to make our material more widely available. Um, so it depends on what's the priority for you. And I think the other thing is the issue of dealing with sensitive material, Um, and the issue of like issues like people's names. More and more libraries have catalogues online, and I think it's good to think about what what needs what can be available online. What is OK to be available online. I mean, partly we want visibility. As [00:13:30] I was saying earlier, That's really important, and it's really good to know specific named people. But on the other hand, it's very contemporary. People's lives change people's employment situation changes. So working out, you know how and when. To put those sort of deeper levels of detail online is quite a critical issue. I think for our communities in particular, because it might be, you know, at one point you we think, Oh, that's really good Things are getting more liberal, but it isn't uniform and it's not permanent. [00:14:00] And so I think we do have to still think of how do we combine being out and being visible with, um not endangering and exposing people? And I guess that maybe quite a bit of the material in would be dealing with a person's sexual or gender identity. And so it's like, deeply personal, isn't it? I mean it. Well, it is very personal, and and so, you know, if you if it's held in las, um and people who are interested [00:14:30] in researching that come here and to the Turnbull Library and look in the Lagan collections, it's a little bit different from having all that or quite a lot of that information online available to anybody. And it's just I mean, that's the way archives are going to have a lot of material online. Um, and it's good and important. It makes it easier for people to find out. But it's How do you How do you negotiate those issues? Where, where, Um, you know, you're just being careful with people's information. So can you describe [00:15:00] some of the the the in the collections? Um, yes, we've got a really good cross section of materials. So there's, like, manuscripts. There's the posters, and we have, you know, um, badgers and, um flyers. You know that I mentioned before There are, um, photographs. Um, there is really It's a very good audio visual collection of recordings, but, um, from, uh, the eighties. Really? Um, maybe even a little bit earlier. Uh, and then [00:15:30] publications and the The book collection is based on the collection of Jack Goodwin, who is one of the founders of the New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society and the Dorian Society. Um and so within that, so say, Jack Goodwin he collected, you know, a lot of publications that were contemporary for him. So So we have, you know, um, publications like Kinsey report and stuff like that, that it gives you a context for what was happening here, uh, in New Zealand and overseas. And then, um, we [00:16:00] have the papers, um, of the, um, gala groups of the seventies in different centres in New Zealand. And although the interesting thing about the seventies in particular is that no, none of us were very hot on minutes. So when you think about, um, an organization's papers, you often think about their minutes and their decisions and their processes, and that's not always that clear. There's some but, you know, so you've got to think Well, what what is the kind of organisation that we're collecting material about and what [00:16:30] were the, um, ways that it showed its existence and how it operated? So that's why that's quite an interesting challenge. Um, and we have, um a variety of lesbian, um uh, materials. And there was a, uh, archivist in welling in. Sorry. In Hamilton. Um, who collected together a, um a called the waxing moon archive. And when she stopped archiving, she gave it to, So [00:17:00] that was great to get that, um, we had, you know, me deposited some material here, the performer. So that's, you know, um, just shows that breadth and richness of of, um, the collections, um, and ongoing right till now, where one of the areas we really want to, um, um, expand is to be able to collect more digital material, and this is like an area that we're still trying to figure out. But, [00:17:30] um, our communities are very much online and very much on social media and so ways to to collect that material or that's a kind of a crucial and, um, quite urgent thing for us. I mean, sometimes we are receiving, like, um, audio and video recordings and photographs now come in digital form. So that's one thing to look after the things that are produced digitally like that. But then also to work out how to if a whole political campaign was on Facebook [00:18:00] and that's the main record of the campaign. And Facebook, Um, people can't organisations can't get their material off Facebook Individuals can't But organisations can't It's kind of a tricky situation, So there are quite a lot of issues. I mean and other archives are grappling with these things too. But I think for us, digital is really important because our all of our various communities, um a lot of stuff happens online in terms of say like, um moving image [00:18:30] or audio recordings. Um, did you have, like, an event audio as well? Yes, Yes, we do. And, um, one of the earliest, um, events recorded was the first lesbian conference, which is in Christchurch in 1974. And, um, we've got some of the speeches opening speeches from that conference, not the whole, um, proceedings. Um, we've got, um, a speech that, um, Robin Duff made in 1976 at a gay liberation [00:19:00] conference. And in a way, that was one of the things that led to the setting up of the National Gay Rights Coalition, which was the body that set up um, the resource centre, which then became an lesbian and gay archives of New Zealand. Um, and then we've got the lesbian, um, and the gay radio programmes that happened in the eighties and nineties from, um, in, uh, Wellington, Auckland and, um, Christchurch. And also there was, um, a gay [00:19:30] activist, one of the, um, gay liberation, um, founders and involved in the Dory and Barry Neils. He did lots of off the air recording, and he's recorded, um uh, any material on radio that related to particularly gay issues. So But that's why it's one of our quite rich, um collections. And we have We have preserved some of them and got access copies, and we're hoping to do more and be able to provide more in depth access to those. So do you think [00:20:00] the intention like back in the 1974 Conference, the intention of recording it was to keep it in some way in an archive? Or was it for, like, immediate distribution? I think it was more it was probably done so that someone could maybe write it up because in the what the main way of distributing ideas and that was via newsletters and magazines. And so, um, the the conference was organised by the Sisters for Hoop Equality, which started in, um Christchurch. But also be, um, was moved up [00:20:30] in Sorry, set up in Wellington. Um And, um, they had a magazine called, um Circle and then Lesbian Feminist Circle and and I think that most likely it would have been recorded in order to write something, but also, someone could well have just thought this is you know, this is a significant event. It's the first time we're getting together. There was a lot of awareness of that, and many of the lesbians involved had been, um either in feminist groups or in gay liberation groups and really wanted to get [00:21:00] something that was specifically lesbian going. So they were really aware of initiating a new thing. Just thinking back to some of those earlier organisations. And I'm wondering, was there any, um, kind of police harassment of those early organisations? I'm thinking, you know, were they did they have to be careful about what they wrote down? And so does that lead you to having holes in the collection? I don't think so. I think the care I think no Well, they certainly like the [00:21:30] um, Dorian Society. And that was careful to put a structure around itself where it could avoid police harassment. Um, And they, for example, this was the first gay men's club organised in the early sixties in Wellington That set up the first moves towards homosexual law reform in New Zealand. Um, you know, so they and they were very formal. So? So that was but their concern, in a way was less around direct police harassment. Um, then, um, like the liquor laws [00:22:00] and stuff like that that could be used against them. And I suppose that's the thing you've got. Where, in some cases, the police, um, turn a blind eye, so to speak. And in other cases, the police can use the liquor laws to shut you down. So, um, I think there certainly was has been harassment of our communities, but I don't think it, um, affected what was written down apart from membership lists. So people didn't always want their names associated [00:22:30] with things. And so we take extra care with if we do get a membership list as part of a collection, we take a lot of care with that, but it is really I mean, it's one of those sort of mixed things where, you know, there are questions about privacy. But also, you know, to know who was part of things is incredibly valuable for future research. So, yeah, what about some of the, um oldest? Well, see, we're not. We formed. Formed in the seventies. Depends [00:23:00] what you think of as oldest. I mean, we haven't, um you know, some of it. I mean, if you think of some of the recordings, for example, people are talking about their memories that go back to World War Two. So that's like, not it was done a bit later, but they are actually talking about, um, the things that happened to them in the forties, as you know, gay men or lesbians or whatever. So I think that's that's really valuable. And that sort of points out the value of oral history. And then, um, the older [00:23:30] would be things like the books that, um, Jack Goodwin collected that I mentioned. Um, and I mean this and this is a way because we're fairly recent. We started out from an activist space the then we don't have a lot that is pre sixties And that's where we're really reliant on other organisations and institutions being aware of what they've got, and that's kind of a big lack at the moment. I think in New Zealand that of working out ways of, [00:24:00] um using the language people use about themselves. So not saying this is, you know, a queer man or something if that person wouldn't use that. But flagging this is of interest. If you're interested in those areas of same sex activity, for example, so we're thinking of people like, say, Catherine Mansfield. Yeah, well, Catherine Mansfield, I mean, it's been very, um, tricky. There's been a lot of, you know, having her lesbian, um, relationships recognised by the people who memorialised [00:24:30] her around Wellington. But, um so that's a good example of where it's not necessarily very openly recognised by organisations that hold material about her that those relationships existed, But, um, because there's been quite a number of biographies and some of them have treated that well, some haven't, um, then, you know, you can probably get on to that if you're looking for material about her. But if you there was people who are less well known or not, known at all. [00:25:00] Um, then that might not be flagged. That they were, um, you know, lesbian or gay, or they were involved in same sex relations. Let's say the language that we've used to identify ourselves as has changed quite dramatically over the last 30 years. So stands for the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand. Does the archive hold? Um, other parts of the Rainbow Communities? Yes, it does. And and And we are really interested in, um, [00:25:30] archiving, um the any kind of material produced by communities. Um, Trans bisexual, um, any other communities that feel they would like to be associated. And I think for me, what's really important is not that everyone agrees or everybody has the same priorities. But it's like an alliance in a way of all those initials now, depending on how far you extrapolate [00:26:00] lesbian and gay, you know, bisexual, transgender, intersex. And then I've noticed people putting Plus on the end, which is a bit, but also I mean and also queer. I mean, queer itself is so interesting because it's really old. But then it's got this modern version as well. So I think that so we definitely are interested in and in talking to people about if if they're thinking they would like to offer us material what kind of conditions I'd like [00:26:30] to place on that, um, how they see their experience as fitting with and, you know, just having those discussions. But it's in our constitution. We've stuck with the, um, leg ends just because it's a good acronym. And, um and also we have, um, you know, a Maori name as well. So we and so we you know, that's a very inclusive name. So are you looking for new material [00:27:00] for the collection? Yeah. No, we're really We are very actively collecting. I mean, we've We're sort of at a point where we do need more. Um, we we're building a group of volunteers, which is great, and some and people have been really generous, and other people are waiting, um, and and keen to start working, um, we do need to have maybe, um slightly big a slightly bigger core of people with archival skills or library skills. Um, that would be really that's really good, but we're definitely [00:27:30] taking in, you know, and interested in collecting material that's being produced now, or things that people encounter, um, from their past activities, either personal or political. So we're interested in documenting our lives and our groups and associations and political campaigns. So it's kind of quite broad in that way. Um, and we do have, you know, some wonderful collections of, um, some diaries and letters and so on, and we were interested in in increasing [00:28:00] that where possible. Um so So it's kind of that older material that people have from their past and when they move and have to move house and have to clean out, they find things, um, things they may come across from even from further back in history and also, um, current material. So if anyone's involved in a particular group or political campaign, what you're producing now have you found with the advent of the, uh, the Internet and and [00:28:30] the more kind of, um, mainstreaming of of rainbow cultures, has there been a greater kind of access of of the archives? Well, it's been mixed, really. I mean, there was quite a lot around the law reform, um, anniversary and people wanting to use things in all kinds of other, um, public, um, forums and on websites and stuff like that, Um, but we're still kind of on the cusp. I think of that next step of us having more but more material online and having the funding [00:29:00] to put more material online, um and therefore material being used more widely. So when I say material, you have to think about what can be online because it's a recent collection. Also, most of it is still in copyright. And even though when we were creating political groups, we didn't always think about copyright, we do have to think about who do we need to consult before this could be made more widely available when it's when it's records of a group or posters from a group? [00:29:30] You know, for example. But I'm hoping that we can get, for example, some of our poster collection online. I think that will be a great move to see um, all those wonderful posters that have been produced to advertise, um, various events, dances, marches, it gives a, you know, a big wide range of activities. So how would you, for instance, um, navigate, say, pink Triangle, the magazine where it was done by a collective nonprofit, Uh, How do you kind of negotiate those? Well, I think we would. The way it is at [00:30:00] the moment, we would have to go back and talk to them. And we would have to, um, contact some of the con well, as many of the contributors as we could. So that would be That would be a very interesting exercise to do. And I think, for example, Pink Triangle would be a valuable, um, uh, magazine to put online because it is like it was like a quite a good news magazine. Um, so that will be an interesting thing. But we do have to You do have we do because we want [00:30:30] to also, as well as making these things available and making the ideas available. We want to acknowledge the creators, the people who actually made things happen. And I think it's really important to think of ourselves as building on other people's work. And that's what I like about the archives, because you see the traces of all the work that's been done over the years and all the struggles people have had and the good times they've had and the campaigns they've taken on, and I think that feeling of communities and groups of networks moving and acting together [00:31:00] and acting on their own, and the the sort of the courage and the pleasure that you get from that, um is really important. But it it it is also important to acknowledge those people acknowledge who designed the posters. You know, for any particular group who, um, you know, produced the newspaper who actually wrote for it under the sort of current copyright things. You really only it's only really individuals unless it's a, um, you know, some kind of an incorporated group that [00:31:30] you can give that acknowledgement to and also in our magazines and that a lot of things are unattributed, so in posters, people didn't necessarily sign them. And, you know, so there's lots of, um, difficulties in finding out. But I think we should make our best stab at it. And then, um, you know, decide how we go forward and whether we put material up and ask people to come forward or or what we do. But I think it's a good, um, a good process to start. [00:32:00] This is the, uh, 30th year, uh, since homosexual law reform, and it's also the 30th anniversary of the arson attack on the lesbian and Gay Rights Resource Centre. Uh, do you have any reflections on, um, how far we've come? Uh, I think it kind of a bit circular. You know, it's kind of like some things have developed and evolved and other things maybe haven't. And I think the you've [00:32:30] mentioned about sort of Integra mainstream and integration and that kind of thing, that obviously anything that makes the lives of, um, you know, lesbians, gay men, everyone associated in our communities better is really good. I mean, I think I really support that, but I do feel that whole kind of broader view of the cultural changes we thought would be were important. Um, that was part of this kind of critique of lesbian feminism and [00:33:00] of gay liberation. I think that's kind of dropped away. And what's been focused on is very much, um, integration and ways of being part of the society. And that's important, you know. And everyone has to make, for example, have a livelihood and that kind of thing. But I think we've lost that kind of, um and I have that edge of criticising or in a constructive way, but the critique of society as it is and [00:33:30] the, um, hetero sexism racism as it intersects with them. I just think that it's that that kind of that it would be really good if we could integrate a bit more of that into our thinking. Um, now that we have done quite a lot of the, um, areas of civil rights that were identified and gay and they were important to lesbian, feminist and gay liberation as well. But the broader critique that they lay in was important, too. So I kind of it's a mixed. I have a mixed [00:34:00] feeling when I look at where we've come, and especially when I look at the, um, writing and so on that was produced in the seventies, I think. Well, yes, we've managed to, um, you know, do quite a bit in this area in that area. But have we kind of made an impact? And it's a bit like sometimes you think about how infinitely adaptable capitalism is, how it just seems to go on, no matter what happens. No matter how people capitalist stuff up, they sometimes carry, keep on going, and sometimes you know, um, patriarchy [00:34:30] and heterosexuality seems the same that it can just adapt and move on and keep going, and it's really hard to change. Make, um, changes.

IRN: 1086
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/kevin_hague_on_historic_convictions.html
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089760
TITLE: Kevin Hague on Historic Convictions
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Kevin Hague
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; 2010s; Amy Adams; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bastion Point occupation (1978); Bastion Point occupation (1982); Campaign to Pardon Gays in Aotearoa; Criminal Records (Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences) Act 2018; Family First NZ; Green Party; Human Rights Act (1993); Human Rights Commission; Judith Collins; Kevin Hague; Louisa Wall; Member of Parliament; Ministry of Justice; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Nikki Kaye; Parliament buildings; Pike River Mine disaster; Ruth Dyson; Tau Henare; Trevor Mallard; Wellington; Wiremu Demchick; World War 1; adoption; apology; church; convictions; courts; crime; criminal background check; criminalisation; desertion; embarrassment; gay; homosexual; homosexual law reform; human rights; indecent act; indecent assault; marriage equality; media; pardon; petition; petition on historic convictions; shame; sodomy; visibility
DATE: 6 September 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast MP Kevin Hague talks about how we may possibly deal with historic convictions for consensual homosexual activity in Aotearoa New Zealand. Kevin talks about Wiremu Demchick's 2,111-signature petition which seeks an apology and reversal of convictions for people convicted of consensual homosexual acts prior to the Homosexual Law Reform Act 1986.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So I'm a green party MP. I've been in parliament since 2008, um, and as an out gay man, I was involved back in the late seventies and the early eighties in, uh, in advocating for, um, homosexual law reform and then later on, and, um, outside of parliament, working for the AIDS Foundation, uh, advocating for the human rights reforms. And then while in parliament, [00:00:30] uh, I worked with, uh, particularly Lewis, but some other MP S on marriage equality. Um, and as as part of that, um, part of the work that we were doing, we sort of became aware of, um that this big group of of of men who had been convicted under the old law and I made an approach to at that stage Judith Collins, um, who was the minister of [00:01:00] justice at the time to say, Well, you know, how about it? Because these are men who deserve an apology and, um, and deserve to have these these convictions wiped because the the law, in fact, was never a moral, a morally justifiable law. And, um, she was interesting. She, like she was open to the idea interested in talking it through, obviously got some some advice from the Ministry of Justice, [00:01:30] and and, um, decided I think we were probably a little too close to the 2014 election for her to take it forward. But I think that that was, uh And I'm assuming that that was, um, the, uh, the source of some of of who is this Auckland man who really is the person who's driven the petition, getting the idea that we should that we should do this? Of course. At the same [00:02:00] time, there have been, you know, a couple of other countries who have made similar moves. And, um, you know, I'm sure that that was part of his thinking as well that if they could If they could do it, then surely we could as well. So how easy was it to identify those convictions like you were saying there was quite a number of convictions? How How did you go about that? Well, we haven't done that yet. In fact, that's that's the principal task. In fact, uh, that would sit in front of justice [00:02:30] officials or whatever the mechanism that we set up will be to, um actually work their way through those historic convictions. The the tricky bit. Which is why Amy Adams, who's the Who's the current minister of justice? I went to see her, um, when she became the minister, Um, after the last election to to pick up the conversation I've been having with Judith Collins. And, um, she had several particular, um, objections. [00:03:00] Uh, the one that one was that, um, let's see that, uh, this was the law of the land at the time, and people should have been expected to follow the law. You know, that was so that was one of her objections. The second one was, um that if, uh, an apology and quashing of convictions occurred in this case, um well, uh, does that open the door to to [00:03:30] some other groups, um, seeking something similar in relation to other laws that have changed. Um, And then the third objection, which I think is probably the most realistic of the three that she had was, uh, the practical one that, um if if someone who was convicted of say, um, indecent behaviour, um, which was one of the the the offences that people were convicted under and there were a number of [00:04:00] them that that, um uh, that that were used at different stages. Um, uh, prior to law reform in 86 um, that there were that there were other behaviours, uh, that work that attracted the same charge and therefore the same conviction that would, in fact, still be problematic today. So, um uh, for example, there was no distinction made based on age. [00:04:30] So, uh, so behaviour that that we would still, in fact, probably more strongly classify as, um as rape. Um, today, because of because of, uh, a person being underage, um, actually might simply have have attracted an indecent behaviour or, um, sodomy. Um, charge. Um and so whatever we do is going to require sifting through court records [00:05:00] rather than simply everyone who got an indecent behaviour. Conviction is now, um, no longer has one. So so that's gonna be the main body of the work. But I've seen in an article I think I was on gaz dot com where there was a number of, um, there was, like, 879 convictions within from 1980 to 1985. I think. I mean, is that the kind of figure that those are the kind of numbers that you're I I [00:05:30] have. I have, um, steered clear of trying to be precise about numbers. Um, I've seen that number before. Um, and I'm not sure how robust it is. Um, certainly from my own knowledge, I mean I I remember the days of, you know, along to court, um, and and and seeing a succession of, um, of cases, uh, of of men appearing, um, to [00:06:00] usually plead guilty, in fact, almost universally plead guilty to get their conviction. So I have no doubt that we're talking at least about, um, hundreds. Um, if not thousands of men. Um, now, of course, for, you know, for many of those men, they will will now have passed away. But I've been quite clear to say that I'm interested not only in the men who are currently alive today, but also [00:06:30] the men who have passed away. Um, because the consequences for men of of getting these convictions were generally pretty catastrophic for for their lives. And they had the those consequences rippled out to others, you know, to the to their partners and friends and and families and um, probably have rippled down the generations as well. You know, Uncle Bill that we don't talk about? Well, actually, you know, Uncle Bill, [00:07:00] who's now passed away, Um, and his descendants deserve the dignity of an apology and for that conviction to be wiped, So were you able to answer, um, Amy's other, um, kind of concerns. I think there were two other concerns that she raised. Yeah, I? I think so. I mean, I think for So for me, the one of the distinguishing features is, um, that the law, as it stood prior to 1986 [00:07:30] required, um, gay men to act against their biological nature. Um, and I you know, I I think that that, uh, that that places this kind of offending these kinds of convictions in a different category to convictions for I, I don't know, some sedition or some some [00:08:00] something else that was previously an offence and might no longer be, um uh and and so I would say these were laws that never, never ought to have existed because they offended so fundamentally against people's human rights. And I guess the the thing that and so the thing that I would say about about Amy's concern about precedent is, Well, if if there [00:08:30] were other convictions for offences that were similar to this, that actually required people to act against their their nature, then you know that that we should we should open that door. You know, they they they deserve an apology as well. Um, but as to the this idea that, you know, even though the law, you know, our modern construction of the law is that it should never have existed nonetheless, people owed [00:09:00] a duty of obedience to the law. My counter would be actually, that's the very reverse of the position that, um, countries like New Zealand took in the Nuremberg trials. Where actually we we said to, um, Nazi officers. Um, yes, we know that this was the law of of your land at the time and that you were only following orders nonetheless. [00:09:30] Actually, there are principles of natural justice and human rights that trump the law of the land. Actually, that's I believe the principle. We should be applying here, too. So what is this petition seeking? So the petition seeks two things. It seeks an apology. Um, and it also, uh, in quite a general terms seeks, um, for, uh, for the for the convictions, [00:10:00] Um, that that were registered against these men's names to, um I guess be deleted in some way. Uh, now, I'm I'm not an expert in in all of the mechanisms that are available to do that, but, uh, you know, I what? What I'm in seeking to represent the petition in Parliament trying to do is is seek for those convictions to be quashed or expunged, actually, [00:10:30] rather than a pardon. I mean to me. And I'm sure, to To to most people, the idea of a pardon is that, um, yes, yes, you did something wrong, but we But the state has forgiven you for doing so. Now, Uh, I'm not sure that if I had a conviction, that that's what I would want because, um, I, I guess the my argument would be [00:11:00] people who were convicted under the those historic laws never did anything wrong. And so a pardon is the wrong construction and quashing the conviction is the right thing to do. And you would go for a quashing of conviction and an apology. Not just an apology. Yes. Yes, I would. I mean, I think, Yeah, my guess is that the [00:11:30] the the aspect of that formula that would carry the most power, um, and meaning would be the apology. Um, I think as a sincerely sincerely meant and appropriately delivered state apology, um would be a very, very powerful thing. Um, for those men. But, um, the, uh, the, you know, the petitioner and his evidence to the to the select committee said, Well, that's the very [00:12:00] least that the state should be doing. And actually, um, we we should be, uh, going further and saying this should never have been a crime. But that actually is also a really powerful, um, signal. And there will be there will be people around today who, um, still have to declare, you know, a a con, Um, in certain circumstances, because the clean slate legislation doesn't apply in all circumstances. [00:12:30] Um, and they really should. Shouldn't have to do that. So what would declaring a conviction? Um, mean nowadays? What? What would that limit or well, it might, um, it it might prevent someone being able to travel to some countries, for example. You know, it might have, um you know direct practical implication of that sort. Um and, uh, yeah. I mean, so that's I mean, that's an example. That [00:13:00] of of a circumstance in which a conviction like that would still need to be declared. There are also some limitations on, uh, the types of offences that the clean slate legislation applies to, and some sexual offending still has to be declared, you know? And so, um, I I've just been through the process of applying for a job, and they asked me about my my criminal convictions. Well, you know, the the you know. So someone with, [00:13:30] uh, with one of these convictions, if it's framed in as a as a sexual offence, which it it, it will have been for For most people, um, that probably still has to be declared, um, and so that might mean, you know, missing out on employment. So have men with convictions come forward through this process? So far? II. I know of some who who, um, there there have been one [00:14:00] or two who've been prepared to, um, talk to media, for example. You know? So when I've talked to media about this about this issue previously, um, typically the first question a journalist will will ask is Well, can we talk to someone? And of course, the reality for the for men who've been, um, affected by this legislation is that for many of them, they have lived since their conviction, a life that has been heavily [00:14:30] affected by shame. Embarrassment, Um, and so talking to a journalist is often the very last thing that they want to do. So I've been really grateful to those men who have been prepared to talk. And the the select committee, um, has has taken actually the extraordinary step because select committees, when they receive petitions, typically will listen to what the petitioner has to say. [00:15:00] They'll ask the relevant government department to respond. They might seek evidence from one or two other expert groups. Um, and then they'll make a report. What the select committee has done in this case is thrown open the inquiry to the or the process to submissions. And I've tried to encourage, um, men and their families, in fact, and to tell their story [00:15:30] that in my experience, those personal stories of you know how this has affected me are the most powerful evidence that a select committee can hear. And so, um, I'm I'm certainly very hopeful that, uh, that that that men will actually take this chance to actually tell their story. Um, there is a way of doing that confidentially. Um, if, um if if that's what men would rather do. But I think [00:16:00] in the same way that during the campaign for law reform our most powerful weapon, in fact was our willingness to come out and to say this, you know, this is about me. Um, I think that if men are prepared to tell their story kind of on the record and using, you know, using their names, that actually will that will be the most powerful way that we can actually convince others of the of the need [00:16:30] to do this. Has there been any opposition to an apology and a quashing of convictions? Well, I, I have heard opposition from kind of the usual suspects, you know, family first and and some of the, um, uh, fundamentalist churches who typically have have opposed every single, um, step [00:17:00] forward towards full recognition of our human rights. Um, but, uh, not from anyone else. In fact, um, it would be it would be interesting to see, uh, what submissions opposed to what would remove is so in the petition. Do come forward. Um, I haven't seen any so far. So what's happening around the rest of the world in terms of this kind of apology and quashing of convictions? [00:17:30] Well, um, I don't I don't know the detail of that. Um What? But I do know that, uh, that that other jurisdictions in the UK is the one that I that I have the most familiarity with. Um um, are moving in precisely this this direction. Um, and, uh, you know, while we you know, we always, um we we should be [00:18:00] doing this, Um, because it's the right thing to do. I think, actually, the fact that others are taking the step might give confidence to particularly, um, government government members, Um, that, uh, that they can do this without without having to be leaders, which they don't seem to like doing. And And so why now? And why now in New Zealand, is there? Is there a particular reason or it's just the the right time? Well, [00:18:30] I guess the the right time was the day after, uh, law reform passed in 1986 with every, um, with every passing year, more of these men have passed away. And I'm just aware of what a profound, not redemptive but, um, restorative effect that, uh, these steps will have for most [00:19:00] of these men. Um, so I think it, you know, every passing year actually gets us further away from when we should have done it. But I think that with the 30th anniversary with having having, um, having passed marriage equality, which really was the last legislative hurdle, because actually, adoption law reform is is sometimes cited. But actually, the reality is we're already there on adoption. Um, [00:19:30] so so from a legislative point of view, um, and looking at at, um, the needs of, uh, gay, lesbian and bisexual people rather than a transgender rights which still have quite a way to go. We're kind of there on the legislative programme. And, um so I think the 30th anniversary, which, uh, which many of us have have been involved in celebrating in some ways, [00:20:00] looking back, um, taking some pride in our achievements. Uh, but also thinking about, uh, the the other side of the ledger which was all of those who were harmed by the previous regime, Um, and doing what we can now to reverse that harm. Um, I think probably that 30th anniversary has been the spur this year. I think I've heard Amy Adams comments saying [00:20:30] that, um, she would consider things on a case by case basis. Would, uh, would that be something that you would go for rather than a blanket apology and quashing you? Would it would It would be a case by case thing. Well, the the there has to be some kind of case by case process because of this problem of, um, of the the conviction offences not being sufficient as categories to be able to distinguish those [00:21:00] who who, um, are entitled to the the apology and and the conviction being wiped. Um what? What? What then arises is whether that's done proactively or reactively. Um, And again, in his submission to the select committee, uh, quotes the Human Rights Commission who have had something to say about this saying, Actually, the, um, kind of proactive res [00:21:30] respect and honouring of human rights always carries more weight than reactive. So it would be preferable for for us to set up some kind of process that actually says, Well, let's look at the categories of offence. Let's go. Case by case through those convictions and say this one is in this one is out. And then and then extend that, um, extend the apology to everyone who was convicted for circumstances [00:22:00] that should never have been offences, um and then and then very deliberately, Case by case, provide those, uh, that of convictions now, uh, the other way to do it. And it may be that this is what Amy would prefer is to say, um, we're setting up a tribunal. Say, um, and the job of the tribunal will be to hear applications from men or from [00:22:30] from their families, in the case of those who are have either passed away or who are no longer in circumstances where they could apply on on their in their own right, Um, and a and, uh, provide the Caine of conviction on, um, on application and on the on the the merits of that, that individual case, um, now taking Wu's point on on board, you know that that actually is less satisfactory [00:23:00] because, um, you know there. There will be people who don't know about the process. Can't manage the process. Um, and nonetheless, still deserve, you know, that that, um that conviction to go, um there is, on the other hand, something of an advantage to that. I mean, um, a, uh actually, a journalist whose father is a is a gay man. Um, [00:23:30] uh said to me that some of he was talking with his some of his father's friends over dinner one night. Some of them have convictions, and they have chosen to reframe those convictions as being badges of honour in a in A in a sense, um, and so So they were saying to him that they would prefer to retain those convictions. And actually, II, I kind of understand that, you know, the the, [00:24:00] uh, the actually well, Amy is concerned about precedent. In fact, there have already been precedents. You know, there has been, um uh, a reversal or quashing of convictions for for a category of men who are, as I understand it, convicted of desertion in the first World war, you know, so that so there's there's been a precedent there. There's also been, uh, a quashing of the convictions [00:24:30] of all of the people who were convicted of trespassing in the Bastion Point occupation in 1978. Now, I didn't get a conviction in 1978 for the best in point occupation. But in 1980 uh, who I think it was, there was a reoccupation, and I did get a conviction for trespass on Bastion Point. But when the quashing of convictions happened, they didn't [00:25:00] think about the 1982 occupation. And when I thought about it, I thought, Well, actually, I'm proud of of of that action. And I do actually kind of wear that conviction as a bit of a a badge of a badge of honour. So I actually don't want that conviction to go. So that would be an advantage of the, um of, uh, of [00:25:30] of dealing with quashing of convictions on application. So there are there are advantages and disadvantages to the two different approaches. So what is the process from here? So the the process now will be that, um So the select committee has opened submissions. Um, we have, uh, asked the Ministry of Justice to supply Advisor, so their job is to provide expert advice [00:26:00] to, um, to the select committee. Uh, and, uh, when the submissions close in October, we will, um, start hearing from those who want to be heard as well as, of course, reading all of the submissions that people have made. Um, the Ministry of Justice will provide an analysis of the submissions. Um, and they should also provide us advice on the precedents that have already been set [00:26:30] the options that are available to, um, to the government because it still is the government that will make a decision. And the select committee will will, uh, will make recommendations to the government on what it should do. I have to say that, um, I mean, while media reporting has tend to focus tended to focus on Amy Adams talking about the problem, saying this is not a straightforward process. [00:27:00] My, um, experience talking with both Amy and with Judith Collins before her was that actually, I found them both really open to the to the ideas here. Um, and that was my experience with the select committee as well that, um, members from all parties seemed genuinely well disposed to trying, um, to be able to grant [00:27:30] what petition has sought. And I thought, man, isn't that great? You know that we've reached that point in our parliament where all parties actually want to do the right thing. So it's more about the just the practicalities of actually how you go about it. It is. And I'm confident that just as other countries have been able to find a way through the practical problems that that are genuine problems, I'm sure we're gonna be able to as well. [00:28:00] Today has been a huge day for you. Um, last night you announced that you were leaving parliament after eight years. I just thought, um since we're here and it's the day after, um what what are you most proud of in in your parliamentary time? I guess the the the single thing that I'm most proud of is, uh is my work around the Pike River disaster? Um, actually achieving [00:28:30] a degree of accountability from from from the government and, uh, re really leading them to a point where it became necessary for them to overhaul New Zealand's health and safety legislation and and regulation. And I you know, I. I know it wasn't just me, but I I can confidently assert that that that I led that process and I feel really proud of that and providing a voice [00:29:00] to the Pike River families and to the men who died, um, in in the New Zealand Parliament on that issue. So that's probably the single biggest thing. But there's other other things. And I guess for our communities, um, probably the marriage equality, Um, law, where I worked with Louisa Wall and with, um um Nicky Kay who? I I extend my absolute best wishes to. And this time where where she's unwell, [00:29:30] Um, and and people like, uh, Ruth Dyson Mallard. You know, these were all people who worked, worked together, um, in Parliament and, um, to achieve a great outcome. And my bit of that was, um, mostly providing, I guess, the strategic input and actually trying to steer steer the process as best I could, and I feel that went really well. So So I'm proud of that, too.

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TITLE: Rainbow taonga at Te Papa
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VOICES: Lynette Townsend; Stephanie Gibson
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 2010s; AIDS Memorial Quilt; Amazons Softball Club (Wellington); Anti Springbok tour march (1985); Anti Springbok tour protest (1981); Asia Pacific Outgames; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Chrissy Witoko; Devotion (Wellington); Evergreen Coffee House; Frank Lund; Getty Vocabularies; HIV / AIDS; Hero (Auckland); Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Hugh Young; Jools Topp; Lynda Topp; Lynette Townsend; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; Paul Jenden; Queer History Month (September); Queer the Night (Wellington); Springbok rugby tour (1981); Stephanie Gibson; Topp Twins; acceptance; activism; archives; bisexual; community; costumes; culture; diversity; dolls; drag; dresses; fa'afafine; fashion; gay; grave; history; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; human rights; identity politics; lesbian; marriage equality; museums; performance; placard; posters; protest; remembrance; research; safety; softball; sport; takatāpui; technology; transgender; visibility
DATE: 11 August 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast history curators Stephanie Gibson and Lynette Townsend showcase some of the many rainbow taonga held in the Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Stephanie Gibson. I'm here with Lynette Townsend and we're two history curators at Papa. And a big part of our work is collecting the history of New Zealand and people's stories told through their objects. And, uh, we're always looking for really compelling, historically significant material that can tell those stories. One of our focuses is on, um, a diversity of New Zealand history. So we're always looking for, um, objects that can tell, um, [00:00:30] history from different perspectives from different groups in the community. Um, and just so that we can get a really diverse range of stories and experiences. And so where are we standing now? Right now, we're in the big history store, and we call it the Big History Store because it's got large, uh, examples of furniture from the 19th century and 20th centuries. And we also have lots of technology here, uh, printing and typewriters and whatnot and, uh, lots of big flash objects like wallpaper [00:01:00] and posters. So very diverse. It's a huge store, and a lot of it is created up for earthquake mitigation. And there seems to be quite a of air conditioning. Is that right? Yeah, it's all really, um, air, air conditioned, controlled. So the temperature is always, um, 21 degrees plus or minus one or two degrees, and the humidity is always the same as well, so that that's the optimum conditions to keep the objects in perfect condition. And and so why is that? Why, at that temperature? Uh, because it's dry [00:01:30] and mild, so it's not too dry, so you don't want the wood to crack in your furniture. But if you have it moist, then you have other problems come in like mould mould spores. So it's got to keep it dry, airy and mild is the best in terms of preservation for delicate materials. It's all about, um, keeping things stable and constant so you don't want any fluctuations. So September this year is Queer History Month, and we're looking at a variety [00:02:00] of collecting institutions and the the kind of rainbow materials they have in their collections. Can you tell me what's in the tapa collection? In terms of rainbow material? Well, it's really diverse. We have a lot of textile elements, so dress and fashion, uh, some of it's very flamboyant from our drag queen and transgender community uh, we also have a lot of sort of activist objects. So t-shirts that are emblazoned with identity politics. Uh, we have placards, posters from, uh, the homosexual [00:02:30] Law Reform movement. And we also keep collecting material that's around activism, especially things like, uh, a querying the night or querying the schools. Um, and we also collect, uh, examples of popular culture like the top twins. For example, one of the, um, sets of objects that we've collected or been doing some work on recently is the, um, collage panels that were in the Evergreen Coffee lounge. And they were made by Chris, Um, [00:03:00] and so they there's 34 35 panels that make up that collection. So how do these objects come into the collection? Well, quite often, they are mainly donated. Um, and quite a lot of the objects that we've collected in recent years have come about. Um, when we've done public events, Steph and I have done, um, a few talks recently, and after that, people have come forward with various objects that they've got Amazon's, um, softball. [00:03:30] Um, collection came in through that. That was after we'd done the Asia Pacific Out games there was, of course, you know, huge. Um, a lot of events here, and Steph and I did a public talk, and we we actually asked people what? Where, where did they see the gaps in the collection? What do we need? And a couple of people came forward and said Amazon's would be really great to collect. And from that we did a bit of research and managed to locate, um, some of the old uniforms. I imagine the research element must be quite large. I'm thinking, [00:04:00] like in terms of these panels from the Evergreen Cafe, where you've got, like, hundreds of photos, they're not necessarily identified, are they? In terms of the people in them? Well, that's been a big part of the research is, um, to identify people, the places and the stories around them. And I, um, we've made a start on it. Um, and we've, um, got some really great family stories and stories from people that knew Chrissy friends and acquaintances of hers. Um, but I imagine that this will be a project that will go on for years [00:04:30] and years because the more you research, the more you realise that the the depth and the, um the the more avenues there are to kind of carry on researching. And then how do you document that new information. So it all gets documented on our database. So, um, some some of the information is just kept behind the scenes and that will be the sort of for future researchers. But we've been trying to write it up as narrative stories and then attach, um, the the related, um, collages and other [00:05:00] objects that help to sort of enrich the story. What are some of the other things that you've collected? So we've collected, uh, around other aspects of, uh, GL BT life. That might not be so obvious. So in sport as we mentioned before, but also as you, uh, very kindly helped us with is, uh, collecting around the out games, the Asia Pacific Out games, which is a really exciting moment here in New Zealand in 2011, and we managed to collect [00:05:30] a huge body of material so that that really grew our collections in quite a different direction. So we're always looking in new ways to collect and, uh, collect different experiences of being GL BT. I in New Zealand. One of the other big collections that we've got is, um, from Carmen. Um, and we, um we've collected, um, one, several times around Carmen. So some items were things that Carmen herself donated. We've purchased items as well, and [00:06:00] then after she passed away, we collected a whole range of objects as well. Um, so that's actually a really rich and diverse and varied collection. Now, um oh, so sorry. The, uh, the Pacific and art collections also have collected material from the GL BT community. Uh, for example, uh, the Pacific Cultures collection has some wonderful examples of, uh, clothing and design. So is it the collection is happening right across the organisation. [00:06:30] An interesting thing with Carmen is that in, in, in the recent kind of media coverage of her traffic lights in mall, um, she's been referred to in the press as a drag queen. And I know, um, in some institutions, she's referred to as a drag queen. Others are transgender. How do you categorise people's sexuality and gender identity? It's really tricky because we're using AAA Getty Museum thesaurus from America. So we're, uh, technically speaking, our database [00:07:00] uses these international classification systems. And they don't have all these new answers around identity and sexuality and orientation. They have a few. They have broad ones like homosexuality, but they don't have transgender, for example, as a category. So we have to embed those categories in different parts of the database and on our and our, um, information the way we deliver it online. We need to write, write that up and make it really visible online. But [00:07:30] it's not actually always in the classification system and behind the scenes. The other thing is that it's really important for us to keep connecting with communities that where those objects belong to and the people who those objects belong to. And I think because I think the naming or the names that people use changes, and it has changed so much over time, and we try to keep in touch with that, Um and I think, and we're really open to kind of re re revising how we've kind of written things up [00:08:00] and named things. So it's it's you know, I think even if something's been written up in a certain way now, then we we're really open to kind of changing that and taking on advice. So how does one change? Say, like the Getty thesaurus? How does one say? Actually, we want transgender in the thesaurus. Uh, well, we would need to work with our digital team here and ask them to champion it for us. And we have asked We just need to chase it up. So we just need to make it an institutional [00:08:30] priority, because I think every change costs money. Basically, it's probably a financial decision as well. And also the with their international purview, uh, will be having their own discussions around issues like this, I suspect. So we just need to get become part of those conversations or drive the conversation. Another item over here is, uh, I signed 27 times. What does that refer to? So this is from the homosexual law reform campaign in 1985 which got very, very vicious and heated. [00:09:00] And, uh, the the the people that were against homosexual law reform, uh, ran a huge petition. Well, they said it was huge. They said they had so many signatures and reality they didn't. They had, um, repeat signatures. They had signatures from Children, people that didn't have enough mental capacity to sign, so their petition was a bit of a lie. And when it was delivered to Parliament, the day it was delivered was a huge protest rally. Um, in reaction to it. And, [00:09:30] uh, people for the reform held up some placards, and one of them said, I signed 27 times, So it's a It's a very ironic placard, but it was a very successful placard and was picked up by the news media at the time, and it's become quite resonant, and it's just come into the collection this year. So we're really excited that it survived all this time, and I think you were showing me earlier how it's not only what's on the front of the placard, but it's also what's kind of underneath it and around it. Yeah, well, the great thing is that a lot of activists, of course, are active on lots of [00:10:00] fronts. So around in 1985 of course, there was. The Springbok tour issue came up again where, um, the All Blacks wanted to go to South Africa. And of course, in 1981 we'd had the terrible, uh, clashes here in New Zealand soil. So in 1985 there were more protests around, uh, rugby and apartheid. And so, the, uh, the guy who young, who made the, uh, placard for the homosexual law reform protest recycled anti Springbok tour posters and painted on the backs of them. So it's a lovely combination hybrid [00:10:30] object around about activism in the 19 eighties in New Zealand. One of the things I think of when I look at the sign is that it was constructed for that purpose in 85 86 and maybe it was never intended to be here 30 years later. How do you preserve conserve this? Yeah, well, often a lot of kind of protest material is very ephemeral, and people never imagine that it's going to last. And, um so sometimes it's a bit of luck that things survive, um, particularly, [00:11:00] you know, posters and things like this placard. But, um, we do a lot of proactive collecting as well. So we try and collect around, um, things that are happening at the time so that we can step particularly, does a lot of collecting of posters and looking out for, um, protest material of of now so that we can kind of keep those for the future once it's in here. How how do you How do you look after it? Oh, well, it's about It's partly to do with the environment, keeping it in optimum conditions. [00:11:30] So acid free boxing and tissue making sure the environment's really stable and there's no moisture. So you know, you can imagine, um, something like the placard would could be in somebody's garage, and it would get wet and mouldy and just be become destroyed over time. So here it can just stay in perfect condition and can last, you know, hundreds of years. Hopefully, I mean, the thing to to keep in mind is that these objects we have here are just the remnant of the remnant of the remnant. So over the [00:12:00] years, uh, objects get recycled, they get thrown out, they get damaged. And we're just getting just the few surviving remnants, often from people's homes and collections. And we find that we're often run by the families of activists who have passed away, and the families will ring us in a panic and say, Look, we've got rooms full of stuff from our parents you know they were leading activists. What do we do with all this stuff? And you've got a week to pack up the house. So you know, they're quite terrifying those phone calls, because you you'll go. You'll go to that house and you'll see [00:12:30] the most amazing rich record of protest history. And you know, you can only take a fraction of it. So that's a real privilege when families ring you and they they know they've got important stuff, and they're desperate to find a good home for it and honour their their family members who were out there on the front lines. So when you can only take a fraction of the material offered, what are the things that what goes through your mind in terms of How do you How do you choose? Well, it's a really complex. It's like a matrix of significance that you bring together and you do [00:13:00] it with your colleagues. You do it as a team because not one person can ever understand everything. So you bring all your knowledge together and all your experience, and you look at the significance of the moment, what the object represents. Um, it's It's it's it's qualities, its aesthetic qualities or not. You know, ugly objects that have great history, too. So it's not always about, um, how good does it look? It's about what it's saying and where it was and who held it and who made it and and did it change? Things did change [00:13:30] anybody's life, you know? I mean, we've got a great banner from the 1981 and 1985 Springbok tour protests, and it's got egg on it because somebody threw eggs at it and, you know, we can preserve that. We can actually preserve the egg stone. You know, it's quite visceral. Some of the things that are the, um, the hardest for us to deal with the things like glue, guns and stuff that have been has been glue gun together and cello tape. And, um, you know, um, staples that have got rust on them and things like that. But we do have experts [00:14:00] here at Papa that can deal with it. Our, um, our conservatives can kind of make recommendations and kind of treat things so that we can kind of yeah, so they'll still last the test of time. So activism is kind of one stream in terms of what you're collecting. Are there other kind of areas in terms of rainbow communities that you're interested in? Well, uh, we've got the amazing New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt. But, I mean, also, that can be seen as an activist, uh, project [00:14:30] as well. Uh, we have fashion. We've got quite a lot of, um items that relate to performance. So, um, Frank L was one person who, um, or one group of collection items that we got in quite early on. Um, so yeah, and that kind of transgender kind of performance where that's, um, that's the sort of thing that comes in quite commonly because it's visually very rich and people think to save it. And it kind of it's a sort of object that kind of lasts, [00:15:00] Um, and and but, you know, um, also, um, we've collected around Paul Jen and, um, the the fairy stories, um, shows that were on at bats theatre, and we managed to, um, get a couple of costumes as well after he passed away. Um, what else have we got? We've got, um, some devotion dance material. We're really keen to document those those wonderful, uh, very public parties in the eighties and nineties. Oh, sorry. After the homosexual law reform [00:15:30] in 86 they all flowering of visibility and excitement in the nineties with, uh, devotion and hero in Wellington and Auckland. Massive big public events. And so we've got some devotion material and a little bit of hero material. But we're keen for more. We've got some fun little dolls of the top twins. So they are, um, two knitted dolls. So one of them is camp leader and camp mother, and they were, um, donated to us by, I think, Probably a fan. Yeah. Um, [00:16:00] we also have, um this is a bit of a tangential thing, but we have a. Over the last few years, we've brought in a really large contraceptive collection which has a lot of safe sex, condoms and messaging, which is just brilliant. And we managed to put some of that on display, and these are products that were made or or put together by the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, and they are targeted at gay and bisexual men. And there's some really powerful imagery and messaging in that material. Another group of objects relate to Michael Mata, and that's an interesting [00:16:30] set because they weren't necessarily, um, collected because of the gay story. But it was more like a fashion history, kind of, um, perspective. But, um, I think that's another sort of line of inquiry. That's sort of quite interesting reading across the collections and kind of exploring and exposing or discovering the the gay stories that might be, um, hidden within our collections. Yeah, let's talk about hidden collections and I mean, not everyone is is out. [00:17:00] Um, I'm thinking of, like, creators or artists. I mean, do you have any kind of hidden histories that you're aware of? We're aware of quite a few. Uh, we haven't surfaced them yet because we haven't done a big research project in this regard, but we're really keen. I think the thing about objects is they can be read and reread in so many different ways, and, um, and we're always looking for new ways that you can kind of, um, you tell a story around an object, [00:17:30] and that's kind of that's fundamental to what we do. So we collect objects. There can be an initial kind of history that we really know about it. But quite often research would, um, uncover all the other kind of stories around it as well. And also, I guess the reverse can happen, too. You can take objects that people might think at GL BT objects only, but actually put them into their full historical context, like the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt, for example, that, you know AIDS and HIV affect everybody. Can we have a look [00:18:00] at the quote? So we're just going to these amazing big roller cabinets. We call them Compact storage, and it means we can get lots of objects into a smaller space. We'll just, um I'll just roll a see. It's quite a big, big metal cabinet, and it's quite deep, probably about Oh, it's about 20 metres deep, a couple of metres wide, and there's a big manual handle that I've got to turn to get into these big, huge [00:18:30] bays. We call them anyway. The New Zealand, as Royal quilt is so large because they're 16, 16 blocks each block is four by four metres. It's actually really, really large, and we've managed to fold them down into AAA panel size, so each block is made up of eight panels and a panel is the size of an American grave, so that, hopefully will sort of paint you a picture. And we've managed to [00:19:00] fold the quilts into their panel size. So it's an eighth. They're right at an eighth of the original size, and they're still really large. And they look like shelves and shelves and shelves of slim mattresses is what you it sort of looks like. But each quilt has been lovingly conserved, folded up carefully and put into these beautiful calico wrappers with bow ties so they're beautifully looked after. It's like it's like the best linen cupboard, sort of that you can think of. And, um, they're all numbered [00:19:30] and they've all been beautifully photographed and they're all online. And, uh, we are always doing a little bit of research into them to improve our records. This is such a critical moment in, uh, it was global history in in human health history in, uh, political history when you think of, um, uh, GL BT rights at that time when AIDS hit the world, they're an incredible record, and they're also amazing record of personal histories and family histories. They're incredibly emotional. They still make people [00:20:00] weep. They still make people remember, and they also still remind us to be vigilant. That, uh, we still have IV and a I in the world. So they are very powerful for powerful educational tools, um, historical information that's embedded in them. They're really rich. Sometimes they they can be beautiful works of craft. They can be really rough as guts. And as Lynette mentions, there's a lot of glue gun, a lot of a lot of glitter, a lot of fabric paint, some scary stuff going on. But they're a real [00:20:30] record of their times, but it's like, you know, it's the thing about preserving objects is there's a really special kind of history that you can tell around objects. There's nothing else where you can have that direct, tangible link back to a moment in time and the people that made that thing. So that's why um, for us, objects are really rich and powerful, and I think they do evoke emotion where other things don't necessarily bring out. Um, that same kind of, um, emotional response to history. [00:21:00] And also the uh eight Memorial Court is a living memorial. We're still used. You know it's still used. If that's the right word, it still comes out for candlelight ceremonies. It still resonates with people. So it has a life. It still actually has a life. Even though it's in a museum, it still has a life. How then, do people, uh, access not only, say, the quilt, but also the other objects you've talked about? Well, the initial thing is, everything we have in the collection is on our collections online. So we try. And when objects come in, we try and [00:21:30] photograph them straight away and write up the history around them so people can always access them straight away online. But also, um, we're more than happy to show our collections to the um, to anybody in the general public. It's just a matter of kind of making an appointment and coming in and and then we're really happy to show them and share our collections with people in that way. And then, of course, we're always looking for great opportunities to have, um, objects out in exhibitions on the floor so people can enjoy them in that way, too. Yeah, and, uh, if [00:22:00] there's a special community event, and if it's logistically possible, then we try and be present in an event. So, for example, with the candlelight memorial at, uh, over the last couple of years, we've been able to bring out the quilts, so there's lots of different ways that we can provide access. And so you're open for people to come forward and say, um, have you thought about this idea in terms of like, an exhibition or so, as you can imagine, gets a lot of a lot of really great suggestions. And they are. They're always canvassed in the organisation. [00:22:30] We discuss them all, and it just depends on the upcoming programming how we can fit things in. But, uh, there's a lot of, uh, there's a lot of huge interest groups, both externally and internally, and we've got to sort of negotiate and navigate them all to see what actually actually ends up in our exhibitions. And how can communities kind of, uh, help with your research in terms of feeding into, you know, talking about the say, the evergreen photos? Um, well, we've been asking people to come forward and talk about the evergreen photos. [00:23:00] And, um so I've been running workshops, and we've We've done a few workshops where we've sort of, um, interviewed people, and, um, and then all that information has been kind of stored, um, digitally. Um, but yeah. So we're really happy when people come forward and they've got their own story to tell around objects. Um, yeah. So with the evergreen as well, I've got about another five. Interviews sort of lined up around that. And, um, yeah, I think, um, it'll be ongoing for years and years, [00:23:30] and hopefully because it's just so rich. I think there's kind of those Touchstone moments and and kind of LGBTI history, Um, the big stories. But then there's just tonnes and tonnes of those lovely personal stories associated with them as well. And yeah, So I've been interviewing people, um, transcribing those interviews and then writing them up into narratives, um, and putting it up online. And we really love working with communities. Uh, and we we love to co co curate with people [00:24:00] in effect, So we really rely on people's expertise out in the community. We don't know everything. We we only know a fraction. So it's really vital for us that we have good relationships with people in the community and that we can be like a conduit to the national collection. So how do we get in contact with you? So you can either go straight for Lynette and I or any history curator, but you could either just ring the general number or go through the inquiries or, um, ramp up inquiries and ask for our email addresses. But if you, um put [00:24:30] put attention history curators in your byline, that will get to us. And I've got a special email set up for the Evergreen Project called Um Evergreen at te papa dot gov dot NZ. Sounds like an amazing job. Well, it's in incredibly privileged. Um, you know, I feel really, really lucky to be able to kind of work with these objects and then connect with communities. It's all all about, um, these objects are really there for [00:25:00] the people of New Zealand. Um, and that's what we That's what we're really interested in preserving them for, you know, for the history of New Zealand people, and then, um allowing access or, you know, encouraging access and continually building up those stories around objects. We really want that to happen. Do you have favourite, um, rainbow objects? That's a good question. Uh, people always respond well to the top twin dolls. It's [00:25:30] funny. They people absolutely love knitted dolls that represent real people, and people love the top twins. And I think that they've been really nice objects to to have fun with. But I mean, personally, I love the activist objects because I just think the chances of survival are are so slim and I. I know it's probably a bit of a sad reflection on society, but I do love the queer the night poster, which only came out a couple of years ago. It was posted up on the streets and I think it happened the same year as the Marriage Equality Law was passed so great [00:26:00] jubilation and and happiness over finally achieving marriage equality. But in the same year, there was an activist group that felt it needed to make a have a protest march around the danger and lack of safety at night for people for the the Rainbow community. And I think I thought that was really sad and telling in the same year you could have those extremes that there are still concerns and worries around safety and acceptance. Um, I really love the Eva Green coffee lunch, um, [00:26:30] panels. Because I've been working so closely with them and I've started to realise the more I more research we do on them, the richer they are. But I also really like some of the, um, the headdresses. You know, Carmen's headdresses that are on display at the moment, but also frank Luns headdress that he, you know, lovingly handmade out of bits and bobs that he found and crafted together. And it was something that he wore on stage and performed in, so I really like that.

IRN: 1070
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/launch_of_carmens_traffic_light.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004464
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089758
TITLE: Launch of Carmens traffic light
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Amanduh la Whore; Celia Wade-Brown; Dana de Milo; Grant Robertson; Kevin Haunui; Trevor Morley; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1970s; 2010s; Amanduh la Whore; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Carmen Rupe; Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Celia Wade-Brown; Chrissy Witoko; Colin Mallard; Cuba Street; Dana de Milo; Evergreen Coffee House; Fran Wilde; Georgina Beyer; Grant Robertson; Green Party; HIV / AIDS; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Iona Pannett; Jeremy Baker; Justin Lester; Kate Sheppard; Kevin Haunui; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Member of Parliament; Māori; NZ Transport Agency (NZTA); New Zealand Labour Party; Sunset Strip; Sydney; Taumarunui; The Balcony / Le Balcon; Trevor Mallard; Trevor Morley; Tīwhanawhana; Wellington; Wellington City Council; abortion; acceptance; activism; ahi kaa; cracking it; diversity; drag; homosexual law reform; horse racing; kuia; mana whenua; marriage equality; nudism; police; politics; rangatira; sex education; sex work; takatāpui; traffic light; trans; transgender; vice; vice squad; waiata
DATE: 8 August 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Cuba Street, Cuba Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the launch of Carmen's traffic light, which can be seen on the corner of Ghuznee and Cuba Streets, Wellington. A special thank you to the Mayor, Wellington City Council and the participants for allowing us to record and share this event.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. How are we all feeling? Yeah. How are you all feeling? This is gorgeous things. This is gorgeous things. Do you know I've seen people here this afternoon that I haven't seen in years. So now I'm going to do the official opening launch for Carmen's traffic light. Is Carmen in the room? Anywhere? She should be here somewhere. [00:00:30] She's She's down the back. How about you come up the front? This is an honour of you, my love. Carmen was a pioneer. She is an absolute triumph. And someone that we as drag queens, the transgender community, the gay community have always looked up to and held her with great regard. Like I said, she was a pioneer. Thank you, Carmen. Ladies and gentlemen, Carmen, [00:01:00] this gorgeous lady has just finished last year filming how to murder your husband. How to murder your wife. Oh, yeah, I see. I see. I've got this thing against men. Sorry. And it was fantastic. She's an absolute gem in our community. And we welcome here. She's all the way from Auckland. She flew in this morning. She's been up since half past one huge round of applause for her, Please. [00:01:30] I'd also like to take this opportunity to welcome to our our distinguished guests sitting at that table there. Georgina by. Is she Georgina here? She's on her way. I heard her walking down the street. The lovely Donna de Milo. As we all know, Dana was there with Carmen working in Carmen's coffee lounge. We tried to do the same thing here just [00:02:00] with flowers and change the colour to blue. Um, Donna, what were you saying? Oh, she didn't work in the coffee. Now she won't be a waitress. She was a balcony lady, were you? You were a waitress at the balcony, and I'm so looking forward to your also. We have sitting in our front table. My husband, he doesn't know it. I've always said this. [00:02:30] Grant Robinson, my love. So that's the lovely people. We have annual lovely cells. Welcome here. I'm going to now hand the mic over to to Kevin Hoi. Huge round of applause for Kevin. Thank you. Yeah. Uh um, just before I, um, [00:03:00] introduce Celia, I just want to call out to our whilst we whilst we arrange ourselves for, um supporting Celia and the other speakers. Um, no. I'll leave it up to our group, first of all, to to make to make our acknowledgements, uh, known with I would [00:03:30] that, but will die. OK, ok, you Thank you. [00:04:00] Yeah. No, I didn't Hold on a, um Fuck. Fuck me. Get down [00:04:30] here. Away, away, away! All the way. All the way. All the way here. [00:05:00] Uh, ladies and gentlemen, first of all in acknowledging the, uh, the of of this, uh, region, [00:05:30] we pay our our acknowledgements to them. And also, we pay our acknowledgements to you who have come along today to to honour, um, Carmen's legacies as, uh, Maori and as a of this, uh, of this community. We also come to acknowledge those legacies that Carmen left behind. Not only her flamboyance, uh, and her, um, you know, role as a a real, [00:06:00] uh, in this community. What she also left behind for us was the fact that we should never forget that we're Maori and that we are so that we should always stand as Maori and stand as within this community here. No, that's the reason why we're also here is to celebrate those legacies that, uh, come and left behind for us as well. That's my short, uh, promo. As far as that is concerned, my role [00:06:30] today is to welcome Celia, the mayor who worshipped of Wellington and also to thank Celia for her work that she has done for our community. Celia, that to me. And for those of you in the back who can't see this is the way I'm honouring Caron. [00:07:00] Yeah, right. [00:07:30] Well, let's start with the MP grant. And isn't it great that there's a greater diversity in our Parliament than there once was? In fact, I think it might have been diverse. It was just a little quieter than you are, Grant. I'd like to also acknowledge Trevor. Morley, where are you? Trevor, there we are. Gonna need you to come forward in a moment. Um, Trevor, what a mark [00:08:00] of the times that you're here to speak to this audience today. And what a wonderful, um, way of being friends in Wellington. This is I'd like to acknowledge Georgina if she's here yet. And can I just say there is another four days you can get your nomination in? I don't think it's very funny, and I would like to acknowledge the councillors that are here today, Councillor. I upon it, Councillor [00:08:30] Justin Lester. Any other contenders for the chains that I'm missing? That would be bad. Oh, good. Some hands. I don't know. Um, I think some of you have already got quite enough chains, so let's not worry about that. Um, Donna, um, lovely to have you here. And I know that there are many friends of Carmen's. I'd like to acknowledge our Carmen for today. She stepped out of the pages of a book a few times [00:09:00] last year, and it's lovely to have you here. I'd also like to say a big thank you to the WCC design team. Uh, we've got Trudy. We've got Anna. We've got Emily. We've got the traffic engineers. We've got all sorts of people here. And also, let's have a nice welcome to Jeremy Baker, who's joined our senior management team. You're a German. So proud members of the LGBT Q I community. We keep [00:09:30] adding a sort of a letter every decade, so that's pretty good stuff. And also So we're here as your friends. Um, so this is a great capital to be gay, to be bi to be intersex. We want to make it the friendliest community in the world, and I think we've got a real first here. There are other people that have got female traffic lights. There are other people that have got plump, rounded, well rounded [00:10:00] women and their traffic lights. But I don't think there's anywhere else in the world that has got a transgender icon beckoning you across when the lights go green. I'm sorry, Grant, about this sort of stopping with a male red male, but and coming forward with a female green. But, you know, there we go. That's greens and labour for you. So following the fun of convincing our dear friends, [00:10:30] the safety people at NZT A. That a woman with a hat was not a safety hazard, that actually the men would still know when to cross the road. When we had put Kate Shepherd in, we thought, Well, we've gone to all that trouble. Let's not stop there. And I have to say, Carmen is not going to be the last person that we have beckoning us across the lights. Um, I will leave the others to, um, the exciting moments where they're unveiled. But as [00:11:00] I say, I think she probably will be the only transgender one for the moment. But maybe we've got a bit of, um, catching up with some other people. I. I mean, we should also remember people who are not here today, including the real Carmen born Trevor Rope in 1936 and all the work she did. She was an HIV activist. She was a mayoral candidate. Imagine what would have happened if she got elected in 1977. Now some of us can [00:11:30] talk a little bit about outside of politics, but that would have been astounding. And I don't know if Georgina's got here yet, but she really, I mean, to be elected mayor of a rural town, as Georgina did is absolutely awesome. And again, her poison grace showed that diversity is always an advantage, not something to be tolerated. Not a problem but an advantage. Different ways of looking at the world. Now Carmen [00:12:00] campaign for hotel or bars to be open till midnight or even 2 a. m. the drinking age to go to 18 Prostitution to be made legal abortion to be decriminalised homosexual acts to be decriminalised sex education in schools and nudity on some beaches. Although at this time of year, that seems particularly unappealing. And she was an advocate here [00:12:30] and in our sister city of Sydney as well. So she really linked up people in different communities. I was delighted to be at her. I think it was her 70th birthday and meet her in person. And she just warm and amazing woman larger than life and never to be forgotten. So I'd like to thank all of you who are friends of Carmen, all of you who stuck up for the law change. Um, might even mention Fran Wilde because she was a leading light in actually the [00:13:00] homosexual, um legalisation bill. And since then, we've had marriage equality, but we still got pockets of resistance and narrow mindedness, but not too much in the capital. And certainly not in Cuba Street. So I'd like to pass over to Grant Robertson to say a few words cure it. OK, this is boring. [00:13:30] [00:14:00] [00:14:30] [00:15:00] [00:15:30] Yeah. [00:16:00] [00:16:30] Uh uh. Greetings, everybody. It's a real pleasure to be here. Uh, today one thing I'm I've been asked by the organisers to mention Celia has mentioned all of the wonderful people who are here. I want to mention one more person, and we've got Carmen's nephew Danny here. Danny, do you wanna make yourself known if you are here, understand? Yep, down the back there. So [00:17:00] there's a connection that, um, the Labour Party since since raised the whole red man green person crossing the road thing. There's a connection between the Labour Party and, uh, Carmen, which is a Carman. As most of you know, um was born and brought up in and one of, um, then Trevor's Rupe teachers was a man named Colin Mallard. And, um, Colin Mallard eventually came [00:17:30] to live in Wellington, and he was quite successful businessman. And he had, um, uh a career here in the city and would often run into Carmen and Carmen would shout out and say Hello, Colin and Colin. If he was with his business, uh, friends would sort of wave quite shyly back. Well, Colin's son, Trevor Mallard, insists that he wasn't named after Carmen, But we all know that he was, don't we? So Trevor brings his greetings to you as well. Uh, there [00:18:00] are people in the room here who are a far better place to remember. Carmen I met Carmen as as the as Celia did, uh, around the time of her her birthday. But what I want to just talk briefly about today is what Carmen meant for the city and what I think she still means today. And that was of somebody who was a shameless self promoter. Let's be up front about it. But at the same time was [00:18:30] taking with her a community coming out of a very conservative period of time in New Zealand and dragging literally that community along, uh, with her. And by the time I got here, the best part of 20 years later, Evergreen was still going, and people like Chris would talk to people like me and Jeremy and others late at night and evergreen about what kind of world it had been and what a difference Carmen had made to changing people's ideas [00:19:00] and perceptions about our community. And when I say our community, that was something that I learned from from Chrissy and from others was a very inclusive thing, and there was a grand and great diversity in our community and as um, Kevin has already said Carmen was very proud of being she was very proud of being Trans Person, but she was incredibly welcoming and inclusive of our big, broad, difficult rainbow of communities. And that was important [00:19:30] for Wellington. Celia has already said her platform for the 1977 malty would be regarded as largely conservative these days. Um, bars only open till midnight or 2 a. m. What was she on about? But she was at the cutting edge of of a very different time and a very different world. So it's that spirit of inclusion that I think we're celebrating here today. I want to thank the Wellington City Council and Celia in particular, for your leadership in bringing this initiative to us. I think there is the [00:20:00] potential for some traffic safety issues initially as Carmen pops up to frighten us. But we'll all get used to it and cross the road in a calm and graceful fashion. Uh, as we see there, I think she got an other ideas. Celia and I think you should make this your your parting gift. As you finish your time as mayor, I think there's a little spot of grass over by the architecture school in Vivian Street, sort of across the road a bit from from Evergreen and and [00:20:30] other such places, which would make a great place for a statue of karma. What do you reckon? So that's my challenge for future Wellington councils Looking at Deputy Mayor Justin Lester standing there in the middle of the room. Um, this part of town was Carmen's part of town. It is still a great place for our community. I want to say that that spirit of inclusion is continues to be an ongoing struggle. And I want to make a special acknowledgement to the [00:21:00] trans community in particular, that issues still remain in terms of safety in terms of access to health services and that we need to take that spirit of inclusion and be advocates as a community to make sure that we aren't just Wellington, where we tolerate difference. We're Wellington where we accept difference. We embrace difference, and we support everyone in our community to be who they are. And I want to give my commitment and I hope yours as well to the Trans community to take that [00:21:30] on into the future. My last job, um, today. So thank you all very much for coming. I really look forward to To To crossing, um, Cuba Street often, Um, with Carmen's help, my last job. And, Trevor, I'm gonna get you to start walking forwards. Now. My last, um, job is to introduce Trevor Morley, uh, to you today. It is, as as Celia alluded to quite something to have Trevor here. Trevor and Carmen had quite a lot to do [00:22:00] with each other back in the day. But perhaps not in the way that many of you might think Trevor was a policeman, a member of the vice squad. In fact, you might have even led the vice squad. And it would be fair to say there was a bit of vice around. Um, and Trevor and Carmen, however, um, became firm friends worked together. Well, I've heard Trevor speak before about Carmen and Trevor. You're very welcome today, Trevor Morley. Ladies and gentlemen, we've [00:22:30] been talking today a lot about people by name. We've got Trevor rope. We've got Trevor Morley, and that actually caused me a bit of mild grief when I was transferred onto the vice squad. Incidentally, we did used to have a vice squad. There was so much vice in new Zealand, but there are no more vice squads at any police station anywhere in New Zealand today. Now we can call that progress or we could call it a regressing. [00:23:00] But I one way or the other, we were a lot better society for it. But in any case, I was on the vice squad as a detective, and it didn't take long for people to become aware that my first name and cars were the same, and I would walk into, particularly the balcony or the International Coffee Bar, and through the smoke and mist, [00:23:30] I would hear a voice say, Trevor. Now one thing I learned quickly as a detective was that you never, ever called someone who wasn't straight by their first real name. To me, Carmen was always Carmen to her. I was always Detective Morley, and we had a good working relationship. But of course I never called her Trevor, [00:24:00] and she never called me Trevor until the first night when I was on duty in the vice squad, walked into the coffee bar and through the darkness came that somewhat piercing voice of Trevor. And I paid no attention to her because I realised that woman would be calling that name out to me and Carmen looked around and she wanted to know who had used her name in public without her permission. Silence descended on the [00:24:30] coffee bar, Trev, until finally Carmen worked out which one of her friends was invoking that dreaded word that should never be spoken in public. And she went over to them and with one large fist, didn't exactly punch it. But it was pretty close to it. To which and so Carmen said, who's been calling out my name and to [00:25:00] which one of her friends would say No, no, darling, we were talking to the detective, so my name came in for quite a bit of bantering, so to speak. But in those days there was a vice squad in Wellington, Christchurch, Hamilton, Auckland and they were well staffed by experienced detectives because the society that we lived in in those days deemed it necessary to have a vice squad so that [00:25:30] we could investigate all those things that we take for the that we take for granted today because of the progress with our society. And this is an indication I think of the group of people that we've got here, of the number of people who are involved in what would otherwise be known as vice work and there'd be AAA vice squad. But I developed a working relationship with Carmen, where, as I said she was Carmen and I was Detective [00:26:00] Morley and we carried out all kinds of inquiries and one of the reasons that I've come along today to speak about Carmen can't tell you too much. But a lot of it is written down in my notebooks for posterity, and that was that. She was always a person who treated me with respect, and I vice versa. She was pleasant. She was affable. She could sit down and have a cup of coffee with her and discuss the issues of the day. And when the time [00:26:30] came for me to say, Oh, come on car and we've got to go down to the Central Police Station and have a bit of a chat about this, which we did. But there was never any trouble, never any grief. She was always pleasant to deal with and had all the other people in the vice field behave as Carmen behaved. Then we would have been a pretty lazy squad of men because we wouldn't have had a lot to do a lot of work to do because she was cooperative as much as she could and always had a kind word in the nicest possible way. [00:27:00] So I just thought I'd mention that to you because a lot of people would see Carmen as some kind of a ogre or some kind of a figure in the dark background device. Nothing like that at all. So she was a person in my career who helped me in in the ways that she could to enforce the law that she didn't like. And quite frankly, I could tell you very often I didn't like it either. I couldn't see any problem with betting on a racehorse. I saw a lot of problems with the abortion [00:27:30] laws and things like that, and Carmen was well ahead of her time. But we are all the better for it. So I thank you all for coming along today, and if any of you looking at me thinking I know that fellow from somewhere, just pop your hand up and come and see me afterwards and we'll swap notes. Thank you very much. Has is Donna here yet? [00:28:00] Oh, there you are. It's your turn, dear. You should have been a policewoman with that height, Dana. Yes, yes. Sorry about that. But it had to happen. It was camp, not you. Never arrested me, ever. Thank you very much. Was saying such lovely words about our, I think cure everybody. [00:28:30] Um, excuse my voice. I've been 2. 5 days in bed. I'm as slim as a read because I haven't eaten for two days. Just didn't feel like it. Um, I'm here on behalf of car, and otherwise I wouldn't be here on her memory. She was our, um she was She was someone we looked up to. She was someone that betrayed us, because in my day in our day, we were [00:29:00] classed as criminals whether we were or we weren't because we were different. As I've said before, when I was young, my mother always said to me, If you get into trouble, you want help, go to a policeman. Well, if you want to be a woman or you're gay or you're trans or you're anything different in the in the sixties you didn't go to a policeman, I'll tell you now, and she never did anything. Really? That brought our name into disrepute like we did, I suppose. [00:29:30] And luckily for her, she had a business, and so she was had a lot more respect. And also Chrissy, you see, Chrissy gets forgotten along the way, But she was there before Carmen, but she wasn't a self promoter like Carmen. Um, she was very She thought of the family name and she was a little bit more backwards in in coming forward. But she did exactly the same sort of things as Carmen did for for the street kids before the word street kids [00:30:00] came out, you know? I mean, I was one of them. I slept in the railway station toilets for two weeks when I first arrived, arrived in Wellington, and, um, it was and Carmen didn't come till about 1960 I would say probably 67 to Wellington. Um, and I used to work for Chrissy then and she was She come and had her coffee lounge building. She'd already rented it, but [00:30:30] she was out on the street, cracking it to get the money to to to to decorate it, you know, with all her curios. And, um, she used to come and see me on the I used to be on the door at the old Sunset Strip in street, and she used to come and say, How are you, girl? I've just come in for a breather and she'd be off again down the street. And then not long after that, she opened her coffee lounge. And then I think, like maybe two years later, she opened [00:31:00] the, um, the balcony. And, um, I was privileged to go and work for her for a year at the balcony, um, which I enjoyed. And, um, we became closer as friends than we did as workers and because I only worked for her for about a year. And then we became very friendly and we got very close in Australia. And I have to say that we keep forgetting that Carmen was a prostitute and that doesn't get brought up very [00:31:30] much. And it's a shame, because that is part of her history. Her history was that she was a prostitute. That's how she made her businesses. That's how she made her life. So I can imagine her saying I really should be the red light girl, especially on the corner of Vivian Street. Because that's where she wanted everything to be brothels. Everything in Vivian Street, all all the red light district should be in Vivian Street. She said when she wanted to [00:32:00] be mayor so that it could be policed properly. And, um, I'm very pleased to say that her memory carries on. And, um, I'm very grateful for everybody for keeping her memory alive. Um, because we we never will forget her as long as we're alive. And thank you very much, Celia, for for the, um, for making it possible for her to be up there. And, um yeah, that's about all from me. Thank you. Who's next [00:32:30] country? Right up low. Right. [00:33:00] OK, 25. [00:33:30] Bye room [00:34:00] acting. How they but [00:34:30] yeah, right. I'm just gonna ask the mayor city of Brown to come up, and we are about to turn on Carmen's traffic light. OK, ladies and gentlemen, can we be outstanding? [00:35:00] Please, my loves? And really we gonna count down 10. Let me hear it. Say it to God. Thank you. Jesus. Amen. Three. Wow. Sure. Yeah. Great to see you. Thank you so very much. Give me a second. OK.

IRN: 1066
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/nikki_carlson.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004463
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089757
TITLE: Nikki Carlson
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Nikki Carlson
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Beauty and the Beach (tv); Boy George; Carterton; Georgina Beyer; Masterton; NZ Idol (tv); Nikki Carlson; Phuket; Thailand; Wellington; addiction; alcohol; anonymity; anxiety; breast augmentation; breasts; clothing; coming out; country music; cross dressing; dresses; employment; facebook. com; facial feminisation surgery; facial hair; family; fashion; feminisation; gay; gender identity; gender reassignment surgery; grandparents; growing up; hair; hate; hormone replacement therapy (HRT); hormone treatment; isolation; love; makeup; mannerisms; marriage; media; music; passing; performance; plastic surgery; puberty; relationships; school; self esteem; self-acceptance; sexuality; singing; support; surgery; television; transgender; transition; validation
DATE: 31 July 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Nikki reflects on a journey that has taken her from having a successful singer career as a teenager, to performing on NZ Idol, to undergoing gender reassignment surgery on public television.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Nick Carson on Idol was You know who I've been from a very young age chasing a dream of wanting to sing. And I entered New Zealand Idol mostly for my grandmother, who was dying at the time, and I wanted to entertain her as she was dying, basically on her death bed, and she died two weeks after the show had finished. So, you know, it brought her a lot of joy to watch week [00:00:30] to week, and it was very exciting and it made her happy. So that's a real fulfilling feeling for me. I didn't do it for any other reason. I didn't think I was going to be, you know, a big recording artist or anything, because I'd seen previous people in New Zealand on these shows and I'd seen what had happened to them, and it wasn't for me. I mean, of course I would love a record, but it that wasn't the driving force. It was to do it for my grandmother, Um, but after I did the show, I just [00:01:00] loved the whole experience. It was really exciting. It was show time. It was lights and camera. It was it was so cool and I got a lot of work out of it. After the show, I was travelling around New Zealand. I went overseas, got to perform with, you know, lots of Kiwi artists like a my, um got to go to the islands and perform. I mean, it was just very, very exciting. So it actually, um, turned out to be a great thing, which [00:01:30] I didn't expect. I just thought I was doing it for my grandmother. But I got so much out of it as well. And I just worked for about five years, um, singing around the place because music has always been a big part of your life. I started singing when I was four, you know, I started doing little shows for my family at home, and so they they saw this entertainment side of me at the age of four. And so they took me along to this country music club where every Sunday I could up and sing a song. So I don't believe I actually could sing when I first went along. [00:02:00] But I've seen some footage of me and I was quite out of tune. I think it's that I had the the passion and the interest to want to do it that I keep practising. And so as I got older, you know, before, um, teenage years I had definitely got in tune and, um, got better. So yeah, I just always had a passion from a very young age to want to sing. It's still a passion in me, but it's definitely been, um, put to the side while I transitioned into a female [00:02:30] and just in terms of the scene, I mean, you've had a lot of success. I mean, prior to NZ idol, I mean, you were you were kind of right up there, Weren't you? In the country music scene? Yeah, I had, um, a really cool little career from four till about 21 years old. And I travelled around New Zealand entering competitions, and I'd always come top three. Um, and I was winning lots of lots of money for a young person, um, spending it as quick as it came in, but I think it looked like $1000 here, Um, [00:03:00] hundreds here, like, quite a bit, just winning competitions. And I got to sing with some very talented people. We had some beautiful groups and duets absolutely loved it. So what is it like as a young person being on stage and being judged a lot of the time in terms of how you look in in your performance? Yeah, I feel like it feels quite normal to me because I started so young. There was always that, um, thing where you were seeking approval and wanting to be good and wanting to get good [00:03:30] comments. So I felt I felt that from a very young age of, um, getting that validation and hoping to to win, um, and be able to perform in the big concerts and get trophies and, you know, just have success. Like there was definitely that feeling from a young age. Do do you think it really kind of, um, focused your mind on getting kind of external validation rather than just, you know, being yourself? I mean, did you need other people to say [00:04:00] that you are a success in my life? I've definitely seek approval from people, and maybe it stemmed from that. Um, always wanted to be told that you were looking good. Sounding good, uh, good, you know, was always seeking that approval. I think as I've got older, I've realised that I have to approve of myself. I have to to love myself and get that validation from myself. Otherwise, I'm depending too much on the outside world. And if they don't like me, [00:04:30] I could crumble because I don't have that self esteem inside. And that's what I'm learning at the moment and and what I've been learning for the for my in my older years. Yeah. So one of the interesting things with, um, competitions like New Zealand Idol is that they always seem to require a backstory or they always want to kind of get to know you kind of more personally. How did you find that? I was actually quite a awkward in front of the camera? Um, when it came to the talking parts, um, [00:05:00] just nervous about, you know, when they say action, you're on, like, just to produce something interesting, I felt a bit pressured, you know, Um I mean, there had been some talk about you kind of coming out. I mean, was that ever gonna be something that you would do on New Zealand Island? They asked me if I wanted to talk about it on television. But honestly, I didn't feel comfortable or or even interested to share that part of me on a music show. I [00:05:30] was here to sing, and I didn't feel to to get that personal with that show. It wasn't where I wanted to do it. It wasn't. I knew at the time it wasn't the platform that I wanted to speak about it. Um, I never actually spoke about being gay publicly. But in my personal life, I was very open that I was gay. Um, I feel more comfortable to talk about it now and also being transgender I. I am very comfortable to talk about that now [00:06:00] more than I ever was back then as just a gay man. It didn't feel right. It didn't feel like the time to do it. But they were definitely poking and prodding me, trying to get me to speak about different things. So can you take me back to your childhood and talk about, um, I suppose the discovery of of your sexuality, but also your gender identification and whether they happened at the same time? Or I actually think that the gender realisation that I wanted to be a girl actually came before feeling that I was attracted to men. [00:06:30] I remember from four onwards having the feeling that I wanted to be a girl. Wanted to wear their high heels, wanted to dress up, had lots of girlfriends, was into the long hair. The makeup was attracted to female pop singers that were dancing around looking pretty like I was just always drawn to that kind of thing. And my my soul was quite feminine. Um, it wasn't till about 12 or 13 that I realised I was attracted to men when puberty kicked in. I just felt [00:07:00] drawn to males. I was attracted to males, never female. Yeah, so they didn't come to later. I think the gender thing happened first. And how did your family, um, deal with that? Honestly, my family accepted me, loved me, embraced me right from the start. I showed signs of being different right from the start. Everybody knew it that I was going to be gay. Um, the way I dressed the way I acted and walked and talked, [00:07:30] um, they could see it, and I was never ever made to feel from any of my family. like it was wrong. Uncles, aunties, cousins and especially mom and Dad and my brother. I never was made to feel like it was wrong. They loved me. Yeah. And how did you feel about it? I think I think the problem was more with me than with anyone else. It was I was. I was the one that was struggling [00:08:00] with it the most. I think, um, I felt different. I felt sad and lonely at different times. Um, I yeah, I just felt like a minority. Like, definitely I wasn't part of the majority. And that's quite that was quite hard to to accept, especially at those times when you puberty college and dating and pimples. You know all of that [00:08:30] like and then you got to be a gay on top of it or gender identity. On top of that, it's quite full on. And let's just, um, paint a wee bit of a picture of, of like, the the the time we're talking about. And? And we So So you grew up in Masterton. And what what kind of years are we talking? What? Born in 1978 in master and was, you know, AAA primary school kid during the eighties and the nineties, um, went [00:09:00] to college and in college and left home probably late nineties, moved out of master. So can you recall as a child and growing up any kind of reference to gay or transgender? Or was it Did you have any inkling that there were other people out there? I think as a teenager, I started realising that, you know, I was gay, [00:09:30] and then my eyes were open and started looking for people that were like myself, probably more so in my life rather than just, um, you know, celebrities. It was I found people that I could talk to in my life. Um, there wasn't really anyone. I don't think that was on TV that I could really look up to or admire. I know, Boy, George was sort of, you know, um, in the eighties and he was quite different. [00:10:00] But there wasn't anyone like a real strong character that I remember being drawn to. I was always very drawn to females I loved, you know, Whitney Houston and women, you know, And, um but no gay characters or anything like that. I think it was in my real life that I met friends and was able to talk and share and and feel, um, like I belonged belonged somewhere. Or what was that? Quite isolating the the fact that you couldn't actually [00:10:30] see yourself reflected back. So, like in the media or definitely my memories of, you know, teenage years at college was definitely isolated. Um, I don't think I came out to about 16. Um, even though everyone may have guessed that I was gay, I didn't come out until I was 16. So, you know, you're keeping it in. You don't have anyone to look up to at that time for me. Um, and you're feeling different from [00:11:00] the rest, So it's quite a heavy thing to to work out. Um, for me, it created a lot of low self-esteem. No confidence. Um, probably getting into alcohol at the age of 16 to sort of, um, escape from those sad feelings of being different. Um, so even though I had the support of my family, I still had quite a a big struggle on the inside. So, you know, I always say I don't know where I'd be if I didn't [00:11:30] have the love of my family, my mom and dad and my brother. I don't know where I'd be because I already struggled with their love. If I didn't have their love, I don't know where I'd be if I'd even be here. You know, it's it's tough. It is tough not being part of the majority. You know, the people who are straight, they struggle with life. They struggle with day to day life relationships, paying bills, getting jobs. They struggle with all that. Well, we've got to struggle with that, plus a feeling of of being different and and also hated at the same time. Some people don't [00:12:00] like it. Some people don't. Some people abuse people that are gay or trans. So you've got that on top of just life. Um, so you know, it is pretty tough, and especially when you're trying to find yourself as a teenager, it gets better as you get older. But, you know, it's still a a challenging journey. So were you teased as a as a teenager? Not really, no. I've been called names a couple of times, but I wasn't really teased. I think I had enough backbone, talent, charisma. [00:12:30] I think I had enough of something to be accepted by a lot of people. Um, also, I had a mother that was, you know, behind me. And if anyone hurt me that she would, she would have stomped on them. But, um, I think there was something about me that people liked, and I got through my life so far without really being teased. But, hey, I have been called names. Don't worry. I've been laughed at, um I've [00:13:00] been left out and I've definitely experienced these things, but I've never been, you know, he flushed down the toilet or chucked into the rubbish bin or anything. Like I've heard. You know, um, just thank God for that. And it was interesting. You were saying earlier about how you think the kind of gender identity was the first thing that you were aware of. But that sounds almost like you kind of parked that and was looking. And we we we were concentrating on your say your sexuality until kind [00:13:30] of. More recently. Yeah. Um I did park it quite a few times in my life. I, I parked it up. I remember when I was in a relationship when I was 21. I parked up I. I parked it up in the background and I was quite content and happy in this relationship that I had with this young guy and that actually was put on on the side. It was easier to put it on the side. Um, because I didn't really know how I was going to achieve becoming a woman. I didn't really know if it was possible. I had to deal with [00:14:00] the here and now the fact that I was a man and I was attracted to men I had to deal with that, um that was easier to to do because changing into a woman, I didn't really know if I could do it. I didn't have anyone to I didn't know anything about it. Really? I didn't know about hormones. I didn't know about the things you could do. I didn't really investigate that until I got older. When? When the, um the feeling became so strong, I couldn't ignore it anymore. [00:14:30] And so how do you start on that pathway? How? What? I mean, what's what are the first steps for? Actually kind of finding out. Well, my experience is I had a feeling of sadness, that I wasn't born a woman and that I wanted to be a woman. But I wasn't sure if I could do it. That consumed me all my life. [00:15:00] But it got worse. What I started doing was dressing up in the weekend. You know, I was living life as a man. I was travelling around singing, but I met someone who dressed up themselves, and I asked him to help me dress up. So once I started dressing up, that's where it all started for me. I actually didn't start dressing up till I was about 27 28. I had a couple of experiences when I was a teenager dressing up, but I didn't carry it on. That was I was, like, maybe two or three times that I did it as a teenager [00:15:30] through my twenties. I didn't do it until 27 28 and once I started cross dressing and going out on the weekends, I became addicted to to dressing as a woman. I felt sad to take it off, you know, come Sunday, I I and having to go back to work on Monday as a man I. I actually started feeling quite sad that I had to [00:16:00] take it off. I wanted to do it every day. Um, because I had seen the female in the mirror. The female version of myself in the mirror. I'd seen it. I liked it. I wanted more of it. A weekend wasn't enough. So it went from weekends to taking hormones, you know? And then I started investigating finding out I didn't really investigate and about how to become a woman until this time, [00:16:30] you know, when I started crossdressing never did it as a kid. Teenager just didn't get into it. Um, and then, yeah, the hormones were the next level so that I could, um, feminise myself, Um, get rid of facial hair, all that kind of stuff. Um, grow my hair longer. You know, there were all these steps that I took from from when I first started crossdressing. There were all these steps to become full time and and living like that day to day. There were steps I had to take hormones, [00:17:00] hair removal, growing my hair, buying the clothes to coming out at work and and start dressing at work as a as a female. I started a job as a male. Halfway through, I transitioned and started coming to work dressed as a female, and I left as a female. Um, the job let me transition. They let me dress the way I wanted to do it. Um, the customers brought me flowers, chocolates, cards, [00:17:30] saying Congratulations. I got so much encouragement saying, Oh, wow, you look great. Good on you. You know, I'm so proud of you right from the start, you know, very encouraged. So that was great. And that's Yeah, that's where it that's where it started as when I started dressing in the weekends. It just became more and I didn't want I didn't want to take it off. I didn't want II. I felt like I'd come to the end of the road as a male. I didn't particularly want to do that anymore. I didn't want to dress like that. I found it boring. Um, [00:18:00] it just wasn't what I wanted to be anymore. I wanted to now get into being a female. I didn't know when I started. If I could actually pull this off, it was a risk I took like I don't know if I'm gonna, like, look fem feminine or female, I don't know if people are gonna laugh at me or, um, hurt me. I didn't know how my family would accept it. I didn't know anything. I just had to take a risk because it was such a deep desire inside of my heart, I really just took the risk to to do it. And [00:18:30] I'm not perfect by any means. But I feel great today, like, I mean, like, I had my struggles, and I have my good days and my bad days. But I feel great as the person that I have become. Um, yeah, I. I feel comfortable. I'm wondering psychologically, Is it harder? Actually, in that kind of transition phase where you are, actually, you know, like changing clothing from male to female [00:19:00] throughout the week. Is that harder than when you are completely transitioned? Do you know what? I find my whole life to be? A challenge? Um, I think even when things are good, there's still challenges even today. There's challenges after I've transitioned. Um, before transition. Yes, that would have been a challenge as well. Um, but I still feel challenged. I think the whole life has been a challenge. To be honest, the whole thing, the whole journey from [00:19:30] being a gay male to a crossdressing male to a transgender, um, preop transgender to a post op, you know, it's all a challenge. And I I things get better. But things are still challenging. Being in the, um, pre-op stage. How how easy is it to access gender reassignment surgery in New Zealand? I don't think it's even happening in New Zealand at the moment. [00:20:00] There was one surgeon, but apparently he's retired. So there's there's no one. There's no one doing it. It's easy to access to go to like where I went to Phuket, Thailand, Australia. It's easy to do that if you've got the money, it's easy to do that. But here in New Zealand, there's no surgeon. But like I had no problem trusting where I was going in Phuket to have the surgery done, [00:20:30] this surgeon that I had was a leading surgeon. He was a pioneer in in the way that he creates a vagina. Um, he teaches in surgeons and doctors in America like I totally trusted that he was that I was in great hands. I was very, very comfortable and relaxed. I did not have any worries or that they were gonna stuff it up or anything. I was so relaxed. So, um, prior to being given the opportunity of [00:21:00] taking part in this television programme which offered you the surgery, what other avenues were there for you in terms of getting, say, surgery? Like, I mean, was there another avenue? No, I was, um, comfortably living as a pre-op transgender woman. I was comfortable. I did long to have bigger boobs. I did long to have a vagina. This has been a feeling that I've had a lot of my life is that I wished I had have been a girl, [00:21:30] but I was doing the best I could for my circumstance. And I presented myself as a female, but I still had male genitals. Um, my boobs weren't really that big. Um, from just being on hormone therapy, Um, I just had to accept it. Like my life has been just a a journey of self acceptance. I accepted myself in that moment as soon as I found out that I was going to have surgery or when I'd made the decision that, you know. Yes, I'm going to go through with this. [00:22:00] Everything started feeling a bit uncomfortable, you know, like downstairs was was not as comfortable as I had perceived it before I started envisioning Oh, my God. I'm gonna I'm gonna have some. I'm gonna have that lovely space down there. I can wear, you know, bikinis and and lovely underwear. And I mean, I could anyway, but, like, it was just that space that would be there like it started becoming uncomfortable knowing that, um, I was going to have the surgery. [00:22:30] I was very excited to to have this body now that I had dreamed about for a lot of my life, my boobs would be bigger, and I would have that space down there. It was exciting. Um, so it was really funny how things became uncomfortable from the moment I found out I was having surgery. But up until then, I was just accepting of my situation because there was nothing else I could do at that point. So the, um the programme that we've been referring to is beauty. Beauty in the beach. Um, tell me, how did you get [00:23:00] that opportunity? Well, I knew one of the ladies that is on the show who had surgery. I knew her as a child when I was singing in my country music days, and I didn't know this, but she was over in Thailand being filmed having surgery as one of the people as one of the clients. Now she heard them talking, saying that they were looking for a transgender person to to have gender reassignment [00:23:30] surgery, have facial feminization, have boobs like whatever the person needed they were going to, um, they were They were looking for someone that wanted to do that. I didn't have facial feminization. I just had, um gender reassignment surgery and breast augmentation. Um, so she heard this and she had seen that I'd been transitioning on Facebook. So she wrote me a beautiful email. I got the email at, like, seven in the morning. One day I read it quickly, [00:24:00] and then I went to work and I, I keep thinking, Oh, I must go and check out what she's talking about. She had said You look, I don't know if this is for you, but please check it out. You might be interested, so I went on and had a look at about two o'clock that day. Um, I saw that they were offering surgery and it was to be filmed. I thought, Hey, well, I might as well just give it a go. I. I filled out the details. Um just answered all the questions, sent that away at about 2. 30 by 55. 30 that night that very same day, I had got a call saying, We want you. [00:24:30] I mean, I couldn't believe it. I said, What? What do you want me for? What exactly is this? To be honest like am I Am I reading this right? Are we going to Thailand to do this? They explained to me what it was and I couldn't believe it. I could not believe that this had fallen out of the sky and and it's like applying for a job you don't expect to hear from them straight away. You think weeks Well, I did not expect to hear from anybody for ages. And I heard from them that night saying, we are so impressed with your story. We want you. [00:25:00] So they told me that you know, I was gonna have gender reassignment surgery and breast augmentation. I had to go to bed for three days to comprehend this and to really think like, do I really want to do this in front of the cameras? I mean, have what a vulnerable situation. You know, um, I don't know if I can do that. So I really had to go to bed. I was just, like, knocked off my feet. Really? I had to go to bed and then I I was being encouraged by my family and friends. Everyone saying you should do it. Um, [00:25:30] might be able to help someone. Um, you'll be fine. Just just be yourself. Just go through it and do it. So I was encouraged. I was raised up to, you know, think, Oh, I could actually do this. And I did it. I went over to Thailand and I had an amazing experience, like it was a really ultimate moment of my life. And al also, I couldn't believe, and the others around me couldn't believe how relaxed I was about what was happening [00:26:00] to me. They were scared. They were nervous. They were like, How is Nicky gonna cope with this? You know, it's a big deal changing your genitals and, you know, like, are you gonna be OK for me? I was just so ready, relaxed and trusting in the whole process that I just went through it with ease and And what really helped was the people behind the camera. They just supported and respected [00:26:30] and loved me through the process. And I was there for three weeks, and we became very close, and that really helped me to be comfortable in front of the camera to share my story. Um, and to feel safe as I went through the surgeries, I've never been knocked out, you know, I've never been put under. I was nervous when I wake up, you know, um, but I was very embraced by the people behind the camera. I didn't have any family there or anything. [00:27:00] It was the people behind the camera that were really looking after me, and they made it a beautiful experience. And am I right in thinking this is like the first time in New Zealand that AAA gender reassignment surgery has happened in front of cameras? I do believe it is the first to be documented so closely. I've never seen anything like that before on television, and I mean, yeah, show me if there is, [00:27:30] that's that's fine. But like I've been told from outsiders, it's the first and and I. I haven't seen anything. So yeah, I feel like it's and especially the way it was done. I feel like that's a first. Maybe, you know, it's been mentioned in documentaries, but it's I've never been followed quite like quite so closely and intimately like mine was followed because they were right in there in the surgeries, weren't they? They were right there. I mean, one of the camera men he saw me from [00:28:00] before and after, right before his eyes, he saw exactly how they did it. I mean, they didn't show that on television, but you know, he's got He's got camera, he's got camera footage of that. He's got pictures. He's got memories of seeing that happen. It's one thing going through that surgery. It's another thing having it on public TV. What was that like seeing your story seeing yourself? Well, to be honest, I actually saw the show before [00:28:30] it aired on television, probably months. Yeah, months before it appeared on television, I had time to get myself prepared for it. Um, I also very quick. I watched it about 80 times. I very quickly became comfortable with the way they put it together and the way they presented me. I found solitude and comfort in in the way they did that because it could have been That's reality. TV. [00:29:00] It could have been done in a bad way. Not so caring. Not so much heart, Not so much respect. You know, um, so that that I had to keep that in my mind that it has been done well, and I'm comfortable with that. There was some embarrassing moments that I had to, you know, swallow. Um, and I'm just talking about, like, bad shots of myself, you know, like, really, I wouldn't have chosen that shot. You could have taken that shot. How? Not to be a bit close, you know, step back, you know, moments like that. But, I mean, get over yourself. I you know, I was [00:29:30] very lucky that they didn't show private parts of my body before or after. Um I mean, they showed boobs, but nothing else. Um, when I watched it live on television when it went to air. I was very anxious and nervous, you know, knowing that and and the whole programme. I'd watched it 80 times before but the whole programme just seemed so fresh thinking Oh my God, Everyone's everyone's seeing me do that. Oh my God! Everyone's seeing me say that. Oh, how embarrassing. 00, no. You know, like it was quite a anxious [00:30:00] moment. I was nervous and embarrassed, but ultimately at the end of the day, this is my life and this is what happened. I just have to accept it. And I'm very grateful once again that they did a really respectful job at the way they edited it and put it together. And I guess it's one thing in terms of how respectful the crew and production company were. But you actually don't know how the general audience, the general society is going to [00:30:30] react to it. I mean, if it's never been seen on TV before, what were your I mean, did you have kind of anxieties before it went to air? And totally I mean, this happened. I mean, when it appeared on TV, this had happened seven months prior, so I had seven months of thinking about what was this gonna be like? Anxious, nervous, excited. [00:31:00] I also like anonymity like there's a part of me that really enjoys no one knowing who I am, And I can just, you know, look around and just do you know, no one knows anything about me I was nervous about. You know, this is such a like a real intimate personal story of my life. People are going to know a bit a bit much about me. You know, I. I was nervous about all of that. I was nervous if I would get bullied or called names. I was. I was definitely [00:31:30] nervous about quite a few things and sad about losing an anonymity. But after the show aired, I don't feel like much has changed that much. Um, a lot of people didn't even see it, so there's an element of anonymity still there, where they don't know me. And then the people that have seen it have been so kind to me. Nothing much has changed. Like [00:32:00] I just get the odd person that might, um, say congratulations or well done. That was great. Um, maybe a few more people stare but it's not. That's not what I was scared of, like name calling or anything like that. That still may come. I don't know, but it's it's not bad. So after it went to air, I mean, were you contacted by, you know, other people in the community, um, either offering support or asking questions, or how has [00:32:30] that been? So the very night that it appeared on television and for days after I got hundreds and hundreds of personal messages on Facebook, people just sending me lovely, supportive, encouraging messages so overwhelming, really heartwarming to have these people that I don't know, message me straight gay, transgender men, women, all sorts just messaging me, congratulating me [00:33:00] something I will I will choose to never forget. I just loved getting those messages. So what would your advice now be to, say, a young person questioning their gender identity or sexuality? Find someone to talk to, I found from a very young age. I found help in talking to professionals, counsellors, therapists. I think [00:33:30] it's very important to verbalise what you're feeling. That's where I would start with someone who is at the start of the journey of being gay or transgender is finding someone to talk to and and verbalise it, Get it out there. When you reflect back on your own life, Do you kind of compartmentalise, you know, the the the Nick Carlson and the Niki Lee Carlson. Do they? I mean, [00:34:00] do they do they both still exist? Yes. Um, actually, it just feels like it just feels like me. People say to me, Oh, you look so different, like, Oh, I didn't even recognise that it was you or um oh, you've changed so much. And, um oh, it seems like a different person when I see you as a male. Or now I see you as a like But for me, it just feels like the same person. Uh, yes, the image has changed. But when I see old footage [00:34:30] of myself and people say to me, how does it feel looking at that now I'm like, Well, it's just me. It just feels like me. It feels like a distant memory now, Um, and it's gone like that image that that image I will say not the person. But that image is gone. Um, I don't look like that anymore. I don't dress like that anymore. But the the person I mean, that's me. I mean, I just feel like that's me. It's Yeah. So what next for NG? [00:35:00] Life surprises you With what? What happens? You can have, um, goals and dreams and desires and hopes. But sometimes you get you go on another track. You know, it's not necessarily what you were thinking, thinking that would happen or that you dreamed to happen. Um, I don't know. I've got dreams and aspirations of music and, um, working with gay and trans people and fashion and, [00:35:30] um, got all sorts of different goals and dreams marriage, you know, relationship. Um but I don't know what I don't know what's gonna happen. I mean, I didn't know that this was going to happen to me. To be honest, I didn't know that it was going to be publicly, you know, on a on a documentary. I didn't know that that would happen. So I don't know. I just So I was just working on my my mental health. I'm just working on my state of mind. I'm just trying to [00:36:00] be the happiest and best that I can be. It's a journey. It's a challenge. And I think that's the forefront. Is just being being at peace with myself and and being happy and being the best I can to, you know, um, welcome. Amazing things into my life, you know, Feeling good. I wanna feel good. I wanna be good, Yeah.

IRN: 1065
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/auckland_zinefest_2016_exploring_trans_activism_and_representation_in_media.html
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089756
TITLE: Exploring Trans Activism and Representation in Media - Auckland Zinefest
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Aram Wu; Cole Meyers; Emilie Rākete; Sam Orchard; Sophie Labelle
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Aram Wu; Auckland; Brian Tamaki; Canada; Central City Library; Cole Meyers; Destiny Church; Emilie Rākete; Gay Auckland Business Association (GABA); HIV / AIDS; Heather Carnegie; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Human Rights Act (1993); Legacy Project; Manuel DeLanda; Montreal; Māori; Ngahuia Te Awekotuku; Pakeha; People Against Prisons Aotearoa (formerly known as No Pride In Prisons); Rainbow Auckland (formerly GABA); Rainbow Youth; Sam Orchard; Shortland Street (tv); Sophie Labelle; The Polynesian Panthers; Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); Tūtānekai and Hinemoa; University of Auckland; activism; anger; anxiety; binary; church; cis; colonialism; colonisation; comics; communism; community; creative activism; deafness; decolonising gender; direct action; energy; fa'afafine; feminism; gender expression; gender identity; gender nonconforming; homophobia; homosexual law reform; human rights; intersectionality; legacy; logistics; media; mis-pronoun; narrative; non-binary; normativity; people of colour; prison; privilege; race; representation; self care; spaces; strategy; suicide; summer camp; tactics; teacher; television; tikanga; trans; transgender; transmisogyny; transphobia; white supremacy
DATE: 23 July 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Central City Library, 44-46 Lorne Street, Auckland
CONTEXT: Audio from the panel discussion: Exploring Trans Activism and Representation in Media.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um, yeah. My name's Sam. And I find talking in public quite scary. So apologies for my shaky voice. Um, it's my absolute pleasure to host this amazing group of people today. Uh, we'll be I'll be chairing the discussion, which will be a kind of informal talk. If not, it was like a very formal room. Um, [00:00:30] about our, uh, different approaches to trans activism within New Zealand and the world and dealing with the media and media stories, both stories that are told about us and stories that are created by us. Uh, on the panel today we have Aaron work, who is one of the founders of Equation. Uh, he's currently on the Auckland Council. Rainbow Panel, uh, has worked for Rainbow Youth as the national project coordinator [00:01:00] and is all around great Garden. Myers is an actor, writer and director who's been involved in breaking boundaries. The Writers festival same thing, but different. The Legacy project and is currently working with Short Street, um, advising about their trans character. It was a regular on the show, which I think is particularly for trans masculine people. Maybe the first offshore industry. Um, [00:01:30] next we have Sophie Labelle who's currently touring the world, and we're very lucky to have her here in New Zealand. Um, she's flown all the way from her last stop was Paris, I believe, um, history. She is, uh, is from Quebec and writes the assigned male comic and is an activist teacher and artist. And on the end, we have Emily, [00:02:00] who is the rep at Rado Youth and a spokesperson and one of the founding members for prison and all around activist and wonderful person who's the patriarchy and white supremist supremacist capitalism, which is wonderful. Um, so I wanted to start with saying, Well, today [00:02:30] is not We're not gonna do a kind of trans one on one because I personally find it boring and and this is all down there. So I have the power to chair. Um, but also, I imagine that most people who come along to the panel know a little bit about trend stuff, and I feel like that would be spinning a lot, would not be doing the knowledge of these amazing speakers justice, since they can kind of talk much, much more in depth and further into the work [00:03:00] that they do. Um, I thought maybe we could start with around for from each of you around your approaches to activism or media representation and a kind of brief explanation of the of the work that you do stand with whoever is running around a fist. I was only giving it because [00:03:30] OK, um Hi, everyone. Um, yeah, Um I guess for me, I recently went, um, to Palmerston north to celebrate the 45th anniversary of the Polynesian Panthers. Um, and that it was such an amazing, um that I got to participate in. And one of the questions that, um, that was fired at our way was what kind of activism [00:04:00] do you do? You know, And I actually felt really embarrassed, um, to talk about it because I was like, Oh, I'm not out picketing enough or chaining myself up to, um um to to, um, to things enough. And I was like, Oh, you know, I. I was feeling a bit, you know, But then I I thought about it, You know, my form of of is actually being, uh you know, living the the the way that I want to live to be the person that I I am um [00:04:30] um, as a trans person, um, working in a secular organisation, which, um, doesn't actually understand anything about transgender identity at all. So, um, I think shaking that up every single day for me at work has just been my form of activism. Um, yeah, that is slowly educating people. Um, around. Hey, you know, we don't live in a place [00:05:00] of just binary that we need to decolonize gender, and we need to look at the different aspects of of gender identity. Um and so I guess that for me, um, through education And also, um, you know, through some of the projects that I've been doing, that's I guess that's my form of activism every day to challenge the the the status quo. And also, um, challenge the media as well. Um, by producing narratives that is holding our [00:05:30] own Um, yeah, yeah, I'm I'm quite similar to you in that, like it's taken me a long time to work out that the fact that I that going to protests gives me major anxiety and, um, and that that's kind of not the form of activism that works best for for who I am and what my skills are and to yeah, to come to terms with that. I mean, the activism that I like to [00:06:00] do the most is, um, creative activism and looking at, um, narrative approaches and, um, and representation in those narrative approaches as well, I think looking at the things which get me the most angry, um, and then addressing some of those issues, and they were things like seeing a lot of trans narratives that didn't authentically represent us, um, that were created by acted by, um and, you know, promoted [00:06:30] by non trans people. Um, casting, yeah, casting nonn, trans people. And, you know, and that's so problematic for so many reasons. Um, I think, yeah. And then and so looking at that, um And then I mean, my work with the Legacy project was realising that then we needed to start writing some of those things. And then So I wrote, wrote a few things which had trans characters in them, and then realised that another person was that supporting trans actors to [00:07:00] actually then, um, portray those roles was difficult as well. Because of all the issues. Um, yeah, in relation. You know how much harder it is to be a trans actor than, um and be in those spaces. Um, yeah, I'm nervous talking with a microphone. Um, and another thing I think is about that self care stuff and that community care stuff. Um, and so, yeah, realising for myself that looking after myself and looking after my friends, um, is is activism, [00:07:30] Um, even things like, you know, getting out of bed in the morning and eating three meals a day and things like that, you know, our activist approaches. Um, yeah. So I guess that's kind of an overview of the stuff that I do. All right. Uh, hi, everybody. Uh, thanks for being here. I'm really glad to be part of this wonderful panel with all those people. Um, I arrived in New Zealand yesterday afternoon, so don't mind me if [00:08:00] I'm just, like, if I just go on it. Um, anyway, So, uh, yeah, I draw. I draw a comic about, um, activism and about trans issues, or look at you, look at you. And, uh, I've been doing it for two years, and before that, uh, I was actually training myself on stuff. Um, because I was I've been doing activism both in trans and feminist communities [00:08:30] for about a decade. Uh, but also, I've been employed in Montreal's Ecologist movement and also the student movement for which, um, I kind of ruined my health in this. And, um and I started this comic, uh, for maybe two reasons. Uh, one was that, You know, I was I was getting older, and I couldn't change myself on on stuff like I I used to. [00:09:00] And, uh, I would I would see, um, younger activists that Yeah, I thought that I saw everything to do with my back, Actually, Just my back. Um, yeah, but by the way, sorry for the strong French Canadian accent. Uh, I was born that way. Like I didn't ask to to. Anyway, I'm slowly transitioning with my comic, [00:09:30] you know, transitioning towards a more international accent. Sorry for the bad puns. Oh, my God. So, uh, I would see younger activists, you know, people that just arrived on the activism scene, and I would see them just, uh, throwing everything. They got into activism and spending all their energy debating with devils advocates on Facebook. Uh, you know, endlessly. People [00:10:00] that don't really care about those issues. And I would see those activists just just giving all the the the gut to, um to the girls. And I was like, we we've built knowledge we've been We've been building community knowledge for for decades, and and still, we we we we keep repeating the same stuff, and and, um, we're losing a lot of energy in this. And, uh, what what can I do to, um, you [00:10:30] know, to just, uh, summarise everything that I've been doing, uh, while doing activism in Montreal. And so how I started my comic mainly to, uh, to end useless debates on social networks? Um, with a with a joke And like turning the issues into stuff that is at the same time empowering for trans communities. But also, um, gives, uh, kind of, [00:11:00] uh, tips for people that want to, uh uh to educate themselves. Really? And so that that's one of the reasons I started a comment. The other reason is mostly because of the media. Um, I was talking with some over eggs this morning about, uh, the fact that before doing that comic, I was you might have seen the posters. You might have seen the posters. It says that I'm I'm a a legendary camp counsellor who wrote that. [00:11:30] Anyway, um, I was I. I was organising this, uh, trans, uh, this summer camp for trans Children in in Quebec. And, uh, the media got really interested in it. And, uh, so they, um most of the big media in both Quebec and Canada. I wanted interviews with me and with the kids mostly. And I would, uh, yeah, [00:12:00] I would see them just be so problematic towards those kids' bodies, mostly, and towards transition issues in general. And they would feel entitled to give so many personal information, uh, about our bodies and our identity. And like, Anyway, it was just really gross. And, um and yeah, when I came back from that camp, uh, that year, uh, that is when [00:12:30] I, uh I decided to take upon me to create this comic, and so, uh, I'm doing it full time now. I kind of let the chaining behind me. I don't change myself on, uh, on stuff anymore. Uh, I don't know if I have a good occasion to do it like, give me ideas. I mean, we can train ourselves to something now, like we don't Yes. Yeah, yeah. OK, [00:13:00] let's put the shoes that I'm wearing today. Um, so I'm Emmy and I. I wear a couple of hats at the moment, so I I'm here as a for you, Um, and also as like, a really angry communist. So, um, forgive me if I slip between registers. Um, so I do I think about activism, and, um, a couple couple kind of I use a framework from a theoretical man who does, um, especially, um, military historian, but he speaks about, um, [00:13:30] getting things done on terms of three layers. There's, uh, tactics, strategics and logistics. Um, the tactical is how to win a battle. So if you need to to kill someone, then shooting the guy is tactics. Um, and strategics is assembling these battles into a campaign. So how to turn battles into wars and how to win those wars? That's the the layer of strategics. And then finally, there's logistics, which is how to assemble, um, society or a group or an organisation or a movement, um, to carry out these campaigns. [00:14:00] Um, And if you're not operating on each of those levels effectively, then you will be killed. Um, so in front of prisons, um, tactically, we've made some mistakes. So, um, two years ago, we tried to direct action with three people. Um, and I got tombstone pile driven by a security card, and he broke my arm. Um, and I learned from that and I I learned from, um a lot of examples. And I look at a lot of military history. I read a lot of history of, um, colonisation [00:14:30] in this country, which is basically the best lesson that you will ever get and how things operate is watching how this country was invaded by the New Zealand government. Um, that's the really the, um the abstract principle that I I look at when I try to consider what we should be doing is, um, if, hypothetically, this is a war, how would we want to win that war? Um, and when I say hypothetically, I don't mean hypothetically at all, because this is a war [00:15:00] as far as the land wars are still going. So, um, that's always been my outlook, but, um, to take off my angry communist hat, Um, you, I think of is largely a logistical and strategical um, level for activism to take place. So there's, um, education work. Um, there is making sure that kids don't kill themselves before they get old enough to take up a fight. Um, maybe that's a very instrumental way of thinking what these young people can do. But [00:15:30] we need to We need to think about, um, strategically how we're gonna fix anything if we're all dead or if we don't know who we are or if we have shitty politics. Because we won't talk to the people who wanted to transfer 101. Um so that's kind of how I would see the split that ran prisons is largely a tactical and strategic organisation, and this is largely a strategical logistical organisation. Um, and there's value at all of those layers because if you fuck up on any one of them, then you fuck [00:16:00] everything up. Um, there's a There's like a a tendency to valorize a direct action. I think in activist spaces kind of going like, Well, if you haven't change yourself to anything, or if you haven't yelled at a cop in the last 12 months, maybe you're fake. Um, and that's that's not a useful at issue. Um, but I do think that it is really important to take direct action. Um, because it's very, very easy to ignore everything else that we do. Um, it's very easy not [00:16:30] to notice. Um, this kind of educational work or support work or efficacy work that goes on, um and you know, both No prisons. And remember, you have to do a lot of that kind of behind the scenes non non sexy, that very, very important work. Um, and, you know, so does everyone on this panel. And so do most of you. To be honest, maybe this is a a very long, kind of sending ramble about stuff that you already know. Um, but, um, I hope that at the very least, [00:17:00] um, thinking about the the three layers and how those how we operate those I think is a way of organising activism to make sure that we do, you know, we do win and we do win. And we do have the resources to you know, to do that. I I agree. I agree. I agree. I don't want to drop out. In the last couple of weeks in New Zealand, there's been a lot in the media [00:17:30] around, um, the homosexual law reform. And I've noticed I noticed a certain privileging of of certain narratives around how that law law change came about the heroes of that, um, how do you think? And this is for any or all of them. How do you think that privilege plays a role in the sorts of stories? All the sorts of people, um, that the media chooses to, um, either demonise [00:18:00] or sanctify. What's the other word? Like making the heroes. Some of you might have, um, come to the, um, 30th law reform, Um, party that, um Well, not party, but celebration that we had, uh, for the Auckland Council, um, to talk about, you know, we invited a whole lot of people, um, for that day to come [00:18:30] and come along, um, to talk about, you know, the the the process and everything, but something that really did struck me was, um, just that this this is not this is not over. You know, the celebration is You know, that day for me was you know, being one of the only trans person on the panel you know was highlighting the point that cool that there are some laws that have ivig some people [00:19:00] in our community. But there are so, so much more that we still need to remember and fight and remember the lives of of the people that we have lost in our, uh, in our personal lives or in our own community. Um, and I think it's also, as you know, as to re re rehash that over and over again. Um, for some of us who have that energy to remind other people that this is not over, um, and also [00:19:30] to challenge, you know, the people of influences with media as well that call this day is a day of celebration. But there's also still so much work to be done. Yeah. Um, there was this campaign that, um well, the the first time I got really implied with, uh, trans activism was a couple of years ago when, uh, Quebec's government, uh, went, uh, on this campaign against [00:20:00] homophobia, and I, uh, I'm an elementary school teacher. That's my career. Uh, it's been put aside for a comic purposes. Uh, but, uh, yeah, it was mostly a campaign that that was aimed at, uh schools, elementary schools and high schools. And, uh, it was basically, um, just, uh the campaign was about, uh would you call this person gay? Does that person look gay? [00:20:30] And like, it was just so problematic. And, um and yeah, I somebody who's been working with Children and, um, like, elementary school levels for most of my life. Now, um, this this really hit home? Uh, since I knew that the kids that were being bullied at school weren't people that were bullied because of their romantic or sexual preferences, but because [00:21:00] of their gender expression and how they didn't look straight and that and that got me really angry to see this campaign that was aiming at saying, Oh, we don't look gay, so you can't really hit us. And so yeah, yeah, totally. I feel that the narrative that we, um, that even inside our communities I mean, I went out in the media against this campaign, [00:21:30] and that got me a lot of hate from Brian and also the big organisations in Quebec because, you know, they were working hard on this. Yeah. Sorry, I wasn't crying. I was laughing, but it might be a bit of crying. I don't know. So, um so, yeah, this has direct consequences, because this campaign has, um, ran through two years and, [00:22:00] uh, once that there was a poster and a part of a commercial that was aired, uh, where we would see a trans person. But it was a you know, this binary older trans women and the commercial would ask, uh, would would you, uh, be transphobic with that person if she was your sister. Anyway, that was That was, um, like you would see all this, Norma. And this kind of, um [00:22:30] uh, this kind of behaviour that we we've been seeing, Uh, well, from what I know, I wasn't born then, um, but, uh, I've been told by many activists that that's how it came to be mostly by historians of the the movement, uh, that after the AIDS epidemic, uh, there was this, um this kind of foot. Well, we have to a know it that the most radical, uh, part of, uh, what we would call, [00:23:00] uh, the LGBT communities or the gay and lesbian movement back then. And the most radical elements, uh, were the first to to fall, uh, on battlefield And then And, uh and, yeah, there was this, uh, this kind of, um uh, this kind of idea that we had to, you know, present, like a normal people and often the ones that were, uh, put aside, This were trans people gender, non confirming people. [00:23:30] And And I feel we're still struggling to find, uh, to to get our place back in this movement that that we started. I mean, uh, the first rebellions, the first, uh, times that we stand stood up against police. And I guess, uh, oppression was because of oppression based on gender expression and and also race and and so, yeah, I feel that we still haven't got that place back. And, [00:24:00] uh, the fact that we're promoting such normative narratives is the is mostly what keeps us from from getting it back. I think it's like it's, um So Erin was talking before about the, um the the council celebration of the 30th anniversary of homosexual law reform. This is a different thing that we're about to completely trash, So I'm sure I'm sure it was lovely. Don't don't conflate the Gabba one. Yeah, that was that was really different [00:24:30] to clarify that. Um, So there was that one, which was real cool. Um, which is a casino. Um, gaba. Who are? I'm sorry. They're called Auckland now. They're a business association run by wealthy Ponson. Be, um, to have their their celebration of the third and 30th anniversary. Um, it was 100 and $25 for tickets. They had a prison themed bar. [00:25:00] What? Yeah, it's the cutest thing that I've ever seen. And it really kind of summed up this weird. No, not weird. This completely reasonable, um, prioritisation of different people's lives. Where, um because, you know, um, when I had my arm broken, Um, the president of GABA whose name is Heather Carnegie. Uh, she's blonde, Um, was, um, sitting in front of me while I was, um, having my handcuffs put on by the cop on my back, telling me how ashamed I should be of myself for ruining the day and making everything really bad. [00:25:30] Um, it basically just berated me for the 30 to 45 minutes that it took them to let me see an ambulance. Um, and like on its own, that's a horrible thing to do. But then after that, after having been criticised for the last, you know, year and a half about the role that prisons play in portraying like violence. That's so bad that I'm not gonna say what it is during this conversation. Um, but, you know, to have been blasted with that stuff for [00:26:00] the last year and a half for them to still opt to do a prison thing. But because I guess you can't go to prison just for being gay anymore, Um is really interesting, because, like, yeah, you can't go to prison because you you know, just because you're gay because that's not a criminal offence anymore. Unfortunately, we're still actually really fucking criminalised, which is why there are so many Trans women in prison at the moment. That's why there are still actually a whole bunch of queers who are in prison and wouldn't be there if they weren't queer. But that never occurred to these people because, um, they've never thought [00:26:30] outside of that, and they've never gone Well, you know I'm gay, so I can't go to prison for being gay. But more importantly, you can't go to prison because you're, um because you're because you aren't caught up on all these little traps that the rest of us have to fucking crawl through every day. Um, this is campaign, um, to to get historical convictions for homosexual activity wipes, um, or forgiven or whatever. The technical term is that, um, older gay men can go overseas again [00:27:00] because you can't do that if you have a criminal conviction. And that's really interesting, because rather than go well, no, you should be able to go overseas. Even if you've had a criminal conviction, they've gone on a don't count. We deserve it. The rest of those people who have been convicted for having drugs or selling drugs, they're actually the bad people. So rather than trying to deal with the actual violence that was gone Oh, no, it shouldn't affect us. It should take everyone else. That's fine. Uh, they earned it by virtue of being too brown or too poor. Um, but we never deserved it. We've acted [00:27:30] it, um, by being we have been caught up in this trap that was never meant to affect us. Um, it was me. You know, if it catches Maori, that's fine. Because we conquered them. And if it affects you know, drug users. Well, that's fine, because they made their choice. Um, but I'm a respectable white. I run a business. My life is worth objectively worth more than anyone else is. Um, just turn into a ramble. It usually is. [00:28:00] I don't know how to follow that. Um, yeah, it just the one thing that I was thinking about when talking about the 30 year anniversary, I was like, Well, we haven't even reached Yeah. Zero of removing of adding gender identity, the Human Rights Act. Um, so, you know, let's have a party when that counter starts? Um, yeah, I guess just thinking about because I think about this a lot as well that I feel like, quite uncomfortable in [00:28:30] some of the spaces that I'm in because people invite me or because you because of privilege and things like that, because people ask me to do things or invite me to spaces where other trans people, particularly like trans women and trans people of colour, aren't invited to. Um and and I feel this sort of weird vibe of wanting to use, like, use that privilege to, you know, be like a spy. Almost sometimes I feel [00:29:00] like that. Like I'm sneaking into these spaces being like you all think that I'm totally respective of? Well, lol Um, yeah, but at the same time, I feel this weird thing. About what If I start believing in that, like, what If what if? Because I'm in those spaces and then because the way I, you know, have to we have to act again in order to then go cool. Thanks for inviting me here. Also, my friends are coming like or that's cool. But you have missed out all these huge groups, [00:29:30] you know, in your discussion about trans issues or things like that. Um, yeah, and And that uncomfortableness about kind of both wanting to appear a lot more gender, queer and and and gender blurry about things. But also going then am I losing some ability to go into spaces and do activist work because of that? Like it's Yeah, and it's I haven't worked it out, and I and I know even talking about it sounds kind of weird [00:30:00] and and stuff like that. But it is something that I think about, you know, that toss of about the authenticity of myself versus what kind of added changes Could I make if I'm more binary and stuff like that? And again, even being able to say that, you know, is is pointing out that this is a problem, because we do. We have a huge amount of Yeah, like, yeah, binary privilege for people who, you know, appear binary or are binary trans people. You [00:30:30] gonna say? Yeah, well, that makes me think of, um, my, you know, international activism. Because, you know, I I'm travelling most of my time to give talks and being invited in different countries. And I know I have many trans friends who couldn't do that because of document, like legal documents or papers and, uh, not appearing binary enough. Or like all those questions about passing and, um, like, [00:31:00] it is a very big privilege to be able to have access to to those places or to, um, those, uh, opportunities to, um to go outside your own country, you know, and, uh, yeah, that that that really hits a lot of, uh, south spot in me. I wanna I wanna jump on board on this whole binary. Yeah, OK, cool. Yeah. Um, as someone who works in a very, [00:31:30] extremely binary, um, workplace. Um, I think, you know fucking things up from the centre is, you know, one of the best ways, you know, like the infiltrator. And they just, like, like, just, you know, just fuck things up and fuck with people's mind. You know, it's amazing. It's brilliant. You know, I've had these big, like, bulking like like sis, hetero men who have just been so uncomfortable by just the way [00:32:00] that, you know, I've come into work. You know, there's some, you know, like for me if I get scared. I have a really high pitched scream, and it's like a that wasn't very masculine. I'm just like, excuse me, Don't put your fucking like gender shit on me, you know? And I will be like, Oh, shit, you know, And it's just like But with that, you know, it's it's it's incredible how much like people just need to have to put you in this box of, you know, you have to live up to, um, this masculine or feminine, [00:32:30] um, identity for in order for them to feel comfortable, Um, and for you to do all the emotional labour, um, that if they get? Um uh, you know, like all pissed off about your identity. It's it's it's your problem to deal with all that labour to, you know, expand their mind and all this kind of stuff, which, which has kind of been really interesting because, um, I actually started having a a miss pronoun jar at at work. [00:33:00] Um, yeah, where, like, people had to, um, put put money into it. And so I had these big, hulking men to be like, It's not in my contract to say that I have to put money in your jar. And I'm like, Well, you know what? When you can be more respectful, then I'll put it away. And, you know, it's been three months. It's literally It's taken three months for some of these big, hulking men to, But, you know, you know, with that, um, and you know, it's [00:33:30] interesting, because at work I've had to be more masculine than I'd like to be, But it's actually really interesting that this progression it's it's, you know, they've gone back to talk to their wives or talk to people in their own community. Where now that if someone actually miss, uh pronouns me. They actually start jumping on board to be like, Sorry, who are you talking about? You know, and that's that. It's actually quite incredible, even though, like, for three months, it's just been like, Fuck me. [00:34:00] I hate everybody at my work. Um, but it's it's yeah, the whole infiltrating, you know? And you know, I mean, speaking of the different tactics as well, you know, um, I'm starting to slowly, like, educate them in that way of, you know, binary, like they're it's it's really unnecessary. Yeah. Oh, I just said something this you made me think about, um, a while ago, me and some friends did a kind of presentation [00:34:30] at a at a church. Actually, that was talking, um, because him and his family go there, and he came out as Trans, and it was basically to just kind of give people some understanding about trans issues. And I did a poem which was largely about how confusing and painful I find talking about gender stuff and my own gender and and, you know, male privilege and and female socialisation and kind of all that stuff like that. Um, yeah. And then this [00:35:00] one guy comes up to me afterwards, and he's like, Man, you're like the manliest guy I've ever met. And I was like, I don't I knew it was coming from a good place, and I was like, I was like, thank you. And he was like, he taught me so much about trans stuff today. Like, that was really cool. But it just it just really It was so funny that his number one compliment for me was like, Wow, that was so like, hard core, like a dude. Like, Thanks. [00:35:30] Yeah, a few of you touched on this, um, before and I just wanted to unpack some of the stuff around how, how? As activists we can practise, um, ways of talking ways of improving things for trans people. But do so in a way that also highlights things like colonisation, things like trans misogyny, things like classism in ways that don't mean that we're gonna charge [00:36:00] 100 and $25 out of jail. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, that's a, um that's a big question. Like the If, you know, it had worked out a really good answer for that, we wouldn't be having this panel um, you know, we'd be sitting on the rubble town hall or something. Yeah, it's really difficult to do [00:36:30] activism effectively, or I mean, I don't really think of this as activism. I think of it as organising because you don't to say that this is activism here, and everything else or something else. Really, um, tends to to centralise the the area of things that get stuff done within a very narrow range of things that you do. So, um, yeah, I think there are a range of things that we can organise that work really well. And there's a range of things we can organise that don't work. Really? Well, [00:37:00] um, that's maybe a bit of a talk, but, um, the the goal is to do stuff that works really well and not do the stuff that doesn't work really well, once you figure that one out, um, things go really well, um, but it's the working out what does and does not work, which is a really hard bit. And it's taken a really long time, you know, in my life to figure out what works really well and what doesn't. And I'm sure, you know, in 20 years time, Um, I'll send a letter from prison going. I think I've changed my mind about what works really well. And what doesn't, [00:37:30] Um, but for the for the moment, I think that really it's, um It's thinking about things from the outside and thinking about how we can let the outside of these things that we are fighting against, how to let that move us. So how to let the outside of Western civilization move us and act in accordance with that as a really important way of fighting white supremacy. How to let the outside of prisons the outside of prison thinking move us is a really important part of any [00:38:00] prison abolitionist. Um, programme. I mean, Maori, you know, got Maori stuff. Um, but, you know, dealing with the history of colonisation in this country requires us to think the outside of colonisation and to lead, um, you know, whatever forces live outside of colonisation, move us and act through us. Um, I really think that a kind of surrendering of the south, um, and a surrendering of power away from our own [00:38:30] agencies and giving it up to, um, you know, whatever obscure forces exist out there. The things that we need to destroy has been the most effective way that I have gotten anything done. So, um, giving up on trying to make sense within the world that we want to destroy is really important. So, um, giving up on trying to make sense under white supremacy is an important part of of living authentically as maori. Um, and giving up on [00:39:00] trying to be able to continue to exist under white supremacy is an important part of being Maori. I mean, any Maori activism which continues to try to make sense with white supremacy, just ends up being, you know, a corporate or, um, you know, any trans which tries to make sense. And, um, the world ends up having fucking a prison themed bar. Um, I don't know. It's difficult to to pin down exactly how [00:39:30] we can be complicit in the outside of these things. Um, I guess it really has been for me. I looked for what was the most frightening. What was the most, um, terrorising, um, about stuff. So the most terrorising thing about the outside of prisons is that maybe we need to consider that and people's lives are never just as and thinking about how we can, um, live in ways that take as a given that nobody's life is disposable and starting from that that [00:40:00] base premise or, um, starting with like a given true thing has been really useful for me in finding what is the right thing to do and what is the wrong thing to do. I don't know how much sense that makes I'm on a lot of cold medications. No, I totally agree with that as well. And yeah, that idea about no matter what everyone's life is is worth. You know, everyone is worthy and everyone is loved as an [00:40:30] absolute non-negotiable unconditional basis to things. Um, because, yeah, it's too easy to go to throw people away. Um, I'm just trying to remember what the what? The question was as well, like, Have you been it wasn't written down. It was, um how do we work in ways that kind of like what you were saying Where, um, we with the campaign around homophobia [00:41:00] being like, if you look nice, then you don't deserve to be bullied. Which kind of implies that if you don't look nice, then you do deserve to be bullied. So how do we take? How do we make sure that all of our people, particularly the most marginalised voices, are heard within our our sort of activism? Well, then, you know, it's intersectional critical things, always with everything. And that's I mean, that's kind of what I was thinking about before as well is that you know, the spaces that I have access to [00:41:30] and I'm presenting in a more binary way and things like that. You know, I'm always going who isn't here, who isn't being heard who can't access this because of money because of, um, disability because of, um, class or race or all of these things like that, Um, and and pointing that out, I think, um, you know, I I don't speak on issues of which I'm don't affect me like that because there are obviously much better people to talk about those things. But pointing out when those people [00:42:00] aren't around to be heard, um is kind of, I guess, one of the the main things that I do in that space as well. Um, because it is as easy unless you're going. Yeah, unless you're thinking about those things to go. Oh, of course. It makes sense to charge 100 and $25 and, you know, to get into things like that where it's like if you'd asked anyone that wasn't in the in group of which you're part of, they would have said, Hey, that's ridiculous. Um, yeah, yeah, [00:42:30] I remember when I was younger, you know, I I would spend when I was 789 year old. Um, I would spend hours at the library just trying to find a book that would, you know, represent me or, um or just like that, I have a character that looks like me, And, uh, I get that a lot drawing this comic, uh, you know, people that see themselves in my in my character. So without me even talking [00:43:00] about the issues, you know, I have a deaf, a deaf trans character that appears some on my comic. I never talk about deaf, deaf community issues just because I'm not deaf. I don't know much about it. It's just I. I just put that character there and I I get messages so often of people that are just so thankful to that I have this character without even mentioning this particular struggles that this character goes through. [00:43:30] And I, I feel that representation is something that's very important. Um, this way. And, uh, I get messages often, uh, from movie producers or, um, you know, people that are writing a book and they want to include, uh, trans characters. And they ask me for advice on how to include trans characters and, I don't know, it seems so, um, it seems so absurd to me that we are [00:44:00] seen as being such a, uh, so outside of society that we need, like, instruction manuals to, uh, just have a character that that is from our community just in a book, while just just mentioning that that character is trans without analysing trans miso and like, uh, particular struggles. Or you don't need to be, uh, an academic. You don't need to [00:44:30] study, uh, gender and stuff to be able to write a character that happens to be trans, you know, And people have this view, uh, of of our communities and even more of, um, you know more, uh, people that, uh, are situated in more intersectional, uh, positions than I am, uh, people have this view that they need to be specialised in us to just [00:45:00] mention us and that that isn't true. And I feel that representation as this power. I mean, I. I don't know if anyone's like me, but when I was younger, I would, uh any time there was a gentle, nonconforming character in a movie, I would add a copy of that movie, and I would just run through the same sequence or the same scene of the movie again and again and again, just to, uh just to see myself and the the character. And [00:45:30] and so, yeah, just just, uh, produce more characters and include us more. That doesn't mean to that you have to read everything by Julia Serrano and like, you don't you don't need a degree to include diversity in, um in cultural stuff. I think you know, it's all good and well to talk about Intersectionality um, and a lot of, but for me, it's It's also [00:46:00] making sure that I'm not being elitist in that sense of, you know, the community that I work in and the the the job that I I'm in a lot of the times. You know, these frameworks, these ideologies are still a very Western con concept and very western construct of how we negotiate and deal with people in that way. Um, that that can, you know, often further separate us, you know? And I think one of the things that [00:46:30] I, you know, I've been teaching myself a lot is actually giving myself my own consent to be OK to be the, you know, I don't know what colour I am, but, you know, the the whole, you know, angry POC person you know of not being toned police on a day to day basis, but can think myself that I can be that person. And I can be that angry person because these these these issues are are they're they're [00:47:00] my everyday life. They are. They're they're the people that I work with their everyday life. But also, how do we move things in in secular, um, groups? Um, where, um, a lot of people don't understand. Um, this this kind of like the the intersectional differences of what this might affect This because of this might affect us in that way. And that's something that you know, um, that you know, for [00:47:30] me, as someone who works in these communities, I'm very aware of the cultural framework that some people might be coming from that I have to work around. So you know that I cannot actually put my, you know, concepts and and, you know, so be it a very, very western ideology framework sometimes And enforce it on to, you know, because that that would be no better or a a modern form of colonisation through through theory. You know, um [00:48:00] and but still being able to be true and stay true to who I am. Um, because I work in a very, um, 90 90% of who I work with are people of colour. Um, and and you know, when it comes to decolonization and the the concept of decolonizing gender and, um, and a mostly Maori and Pacific, um, demographic, um, and community that I work in, you know, there must there has to be a lot of consultation, um, [00:48:30] and consent from from, um, you know, elders that II I, um Yeah, um, to not come from another framework of No, this is how you have to think. This is how da da da da. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I heard the word colon is actually so, like, speaking like specifically as like, a person. Um, we don't really want to talk about, like, gender and sexuality and stuff. There's always this hard limit that we grew up against. Um, and [00:49:00] that's that, um, all of all of our discourses and all of the long, long, long conversations about what bodies mean and what bodies touching each other can mean All of that knowledge was massacred. Um, when we were invaded and all of those conversations were murdered and and fill up mass graves all up in another country. That's the The absolute limitation for us is that as indigenous people, [00:49:30] there is always a point. We walk up against it and go thus far and no further. Um, there's nothing more that we can know about what that means, because it was taken from us. Um, as as like, a queer Maori person. Um, we didn't know what the word for queer was in our language till 1980. When was looking at a manuscript of the the history of, um and who are two lovers from, um, the Seattle Art tradition. Um, and the story [00:50:00] is quite well known in most places. It's just about, um, loves Tanika, even though he's, uh, he's not a noble family or anything. He's just a flute player. But she falls in love with him and she runs off and they presumably have kids. Um, and that's that's fine. And that's that's That's great. But there's actually way more to that story. And so, um, looked at an original manuscript from the 18 hundreds. Um, when the story was first transcribed to Maori and then translated into English and the [00:50:30] translator, they found a lot of shit. Um, so actually had, um what is called in the, um it sounds a lot like just a lover who is a guy, and that's actually a really significant part of the original text. Is the negotiation of that very complex relationship that's going on with. But he is, um, And if it hadn't been for one scholar [00:51:00] one time noticing one word in one manuscript, um, we never would have known to call ourselves because that would have just been gone. Um, and that's that's kind of it, isn't it that, um, for us, everything is super precarious. Um, and, you know, don't have to worry quite so much about, um, what they call themselves or, um, where their stories come from, because, um, they never got invaded [00:51:30] because they were the ones invading. Um, but there's no absolute limit that they'll come up against when they try to think about their history. Um, or, you know, if there is at least there's a written record of it somewhere. Um, and at least there has been, you know, an active government running their country, trying to stop that history out wherever it is. Um, and so in like a modern context in terms of practise, how we teach is really important. Because if [00:52:00] we don't teach Maori kids about, um, we're back in that same situation again where, um, you know, in 100 years I don't want my to have to look back through. You know, maybe that's this this transcript here to try to figure out what to call themselves I. I want those those knowledge to survive and, you know, for so long, the the queer movement in this country has made no effort [00:52:30] whatsoever to try to make sure that like Maori, but like, in particular, has had any place in movement whatsoever, let alone like a really important one, which I think it deserves. Um, with that said, like a lot of people do a lot of really good work, like Aaron and like re youth who I am. I initially you know, this isn't to say like, it's great because when I turned up, I was like, Fuck, remember you So that's why I joined. But they're actually really good [00:53:00] and you know, I, I know. But it's important because I was really angry because a lot of the work that was being done by primarily queers was not catering to the needs of Maori queers. And, um, you know, that's been a priority remove for the last two years. Now I think they're doing really, really well. Um, but it's really easy not to do really well. A lot of people don't don't fucking prison. I have about [00:53:30] 10 million more questions on my piece of paper back, and I was supposed to leave time for doing Q and a But we've gone way over time already. It's seven past three and we're supposed to finish at three. Time is I'm not sure if you guys need need to run away or whether we can open it up to one or two. I'm sleeping here. Alright, then I'll throw it out to the audience for [00:54:00] one or two questions for the group or one or two people. Or if you want that this is for Sophie. I really like your comic, by the way. This is awesome. Um, what's been the hardest thing doing your comic and starting it up? Um, the hardest thing. Um, well, a couple of weeks after I started it in just a couple of weeks, [00:54:30] Like I had maybe maybe, like, 60 followers, all from my university and from my group of friends and still manage to find it and get really angry at it. Uh, stands for, uh I know no 101. Sorry. I'm sorry. I'm gonna say it anyway. Thanks for trans exclusionary, radical feminist feminist in brackets [00:55:00] radical bracket. Um, they're radically trans exclusionary, though. And, um and so Yeah, I got filed on this website and they managed to find every bit of information they could about me and they they just started, like, producing lots of, um, lots of things about me, especially as I was. As I said, I was working with kids and so, you know, a trans [00:55:30] working with Children. Oh, my God. And, uh, yeah, that really hurt me a lot. And, uh, I really reconsidered drawing the comic over, like, at all. And I was like, Is this really worth it? Because it was really putting my teaching career on, uh, on the ice, and and, uh, yeah, that's, uh, actually what? I decided to go, um uh, to really make it a bigger project because, [00:56:00] uh, there was more to lose at stake. Um, as I was already filed, and I was already being watched by those groups by those hating groups, and and, uh, yeah, that made me, uh, so anxious that I wouldn't sleep at night for many weeks. And, um, after that, you know, many other groups came along because, uh, they didn't like my comic. And so that apparently was a [00:56:30] good enough reason to, uh, start creating those hating groups about me. You know, people don't like a comic. They just I don't know. Let's just let's just buy a diamond to mock this author and they had to do that. They do that. And, uh, yeah, that was probably the biggest challenge. Was to, um to decide to fight back. And, uh and I feel that I wouldn't be here today if [00:57:00] that wasn't of those, uh, add attacks that I got very early on because, um uh, that gave that. Also put that also gave me a lot of, um of sympathy from, uh, from the public from the audience in general because, you know, people would be like, huh? So this person is making those groups angry, so that person must actually be pretty cool. That's [00:57:30] how that's how I work. You know, I, I look at who gets angry at who. And I'm like, OK, I choose my side and, uh, this kind of polarisation of the debate kind of, um, put my comic on the spotlight, I. I feel that that was the biggest challenge at first. But I also feel that it brought me a lot, uh, emotionally and in terms of, uh, support. I got a lot of support from people like I know who would be supporting [00:58:00] me and stuff like that. So, yeah, that was, um, the biggest issue, especially as a you know, when you're doing trans activism online. Um, like, maybe it seems easy from the outside to, uh, to produce articles and, uh, or comics or anything. Uh, you know, you feel like you just just do it and and it's out there. It's easy, but, uh, but most of the people that I know that are [00:58:30] producing content I don't know about, but most Most of the the online activities that I know are are go through that kind of things, and and there's just nothing that, uh, authorities will do. And there's nothing. There's no way to, uh, to fight back at them, especially as you know, those groups have a lot of power. I mean, if you look at, uh, all their resources that websites like Reddit or for [00:59:00] can put together just to arrest somebody, it's it's pretty intense, and, um and yeah, that makes it really, uh, precarious to, uh, to decide to do this kind of job and, um, but at the same time, it's a very difficult conversation because I don't want anyone to think that, um, they shouldn't do it because it's vital, you know, we need we need visible people [00:59:30] both online and, uh, and outside the Internet. Um, the Internet is a really nice place. Otherwise, I. I mean, I came out on the Internet and like many people and overall, you know, uh, the support is a lot bigger than the hate. I get online. And but yeah, it's, um it's always very, uh, very a very sensitive subject. [01:00:00] Um, I just wanted to say thank you. I appreciate it. Give me an ER because I think it's really interesting from someone, and it's really interesting talking to people about gender and things because they don't seem to understand that binary, and even like gender discourse and colonial context is very much a colonial. You know, like there's, [01:00:30] uh I was talking to Frank recently that there's no real translation for people of colour who aren't transgender, but you kind of get placed into the system thing, and it's it's really good to kind of hear both of you talk about the place that colonisation has had in these discussions around parents and gender. There's a lot of so I don't know, there are some people here, but people love to talk about [01:01:00] and and this is of those things and elitism like we can speak over you about your in and yeah, how do you deal with places like prisons? Have a lot of white folders and it's really cool to hear that you're talking about, like, reflecting on problems that come up in organising. How do you kind of [01:01:30] navigate that thing where you ensure that your group which is which is centred around indigenous people How do you memory of white people who in theory mean support indigenous sovereignty but in practise, subconsciously and unconsciously kind of perpetuate the I guess, further colonisation. Yeah, [01:02:00] it's I don't want to unless little flies on the mic. So I'll chuck them over at a And, um, yeah, it is really difficult or with your house. Um, and I don't think that that is because white people are made out of evil. Or if you, if you cut the mayonnaise, will come out or anything like it's It's not a, um, like an objective truth that white people can't have good politics or white people can't be part of the movement because they can. Um, there's like white people have, like the Panthers White people have always been part of radical [01:02:30] movements. And I think if you try to centre a radical movement on a kind of identitarian notion that there's the revolutionary class which is solely marginalised people and there's the enemy and that's solely or solely straight people. Um, not only are you misrepresenting like who is actually capable of revolutionary labour, Um, but you're throwing out a whole bunch of like, potential foot soldiers. Metaphorically, not actual soldiers. That was a joke. Um, but [01:03:00] yeah. And it's also, um, there's a tension because there will be, like, counter revolutionary tendencies among those populations. But, I mean, there's counterrevolutionary tendencies amongst every population. Brian is Maori, and he's still the worst piece of shit. Um, yeah, it's difficult because, um, not only do we live in the era of colonisation, um, but we we can still colonise ourselves. We still know we can. We [01:03:30] can We can still perpetuate colonialism or colonial thinking in our own spaces. Um, again, like here is a really good example, because he claimed that there was never any gay Maori, and somehow also, if there were ever any gay Maori, they would have been executed. Um Somehow he managed to hold both of those opinions at once. But it's a great example of the kind of incoherent shit that you get when you try to think colonially because it just doesn't make sense. That didn't make any sense. Um, but, you know, Maori can still do that. [01:04:00] So, um, you know, if we can do it definitely can do it. But, you know, that doesn't mean that we need to discard outright any population which is capable of having share politics because every population is capable of having shit politics. You know, I have I have had bad politics. Um, you all have had bad politics, and in five years, we'll probably think back of something that we think now, about all, um I don't think that means that from the outset, any kind of revolutionary movement is doomed. I really hope not. Um, because otherwise [01:04:30] there is no possibility for revolution. And I like to think that there is Yeah, that's that's completely something that I'm really I'm always mindful about and really aware of when I clock into work, um, and the community that I'm I'm I'm serving. You know that I'm not perpetuating and and you touched on it before On the concept of that. A lot of Maori people don't understand this concept or or the fact that, you know, acknowledge that there [01:05:00] are for layman terms queer people and and Maori them, you know. But you know, But it's not for me to be like Did you know? You know, because that that to me, I'm just like, you know, for someone like me who's also been colonised in the sense that I was ripped out from my my, you know, birth, a place of birth and, you know, um, having to live in, um, you know, a a colonised [01:05:30] land and having everything pretty much taken away from me and having to learn my own language from people and pay money at the University of fricking Auckland by these American white people of my own language. And my own culture has just been something that's truly like it's It's it's you know, it's I wouldn't want that done upon somebody else because I wouldn't want that to be done to me. But you know, it's [01:06:00] actually building, having and consenting for myself. Um, to be OK to have that Brown voice to be OK to have that. You know, like, if I need to put someone in line who in and my friends that I don't want to be doing any more emotional labour with my pakeha people, you know, I don't wanna have to feel like, 00, sorry. Did I hurt your feeling? Because I really didn't like the way that you kind of get over, You know, my whole aspects [01:06:30] of of me and my, you know, like everything in that in in that way, you know? So for me, I'm just like, um yeah, that that's that that negotiation with, um I don't wanna have to keep rehashing the same sort of not just the aspect of trans identity, but as a person of colour identity that I have to do one on one every single day with with the people that are close to me, that I want to just be able to move on, and even [01:07:00] with my activism that I can move on with it without having to rehash and rehash and all this kind of stuff over and over again and having to always feel like Oh, sorry. Did I hurt your feelings. You know, in that way, when I'm just trying to be me, you know, um and I think with activism as well, Like like what you were saying, Simone, Um, that How do we negotiate? Um, this kind of aspects, Um, and I think, you know, for me, I just My time is [01:07:30] valuable. What I do is valuable. And if people can't, if people can't get that in that way and and in my everyday activism, then I just move on. You know, there's no point keep going back to hammer something that they're not there yet. And that's OK, you know, And everything is a process. My whole journey is a process, and their journey is a process as well. Yeah. Amazing. Thank you. Um, I think that we'll finish it there with that. Excellent. Those [01:08:00] excellent points from both of you. Um, and I just want to say thank you to all of you for your generosity and your knowledge. And I know that standing up or not necessarily standing, but being up the front and sharing some of this stuff can be really hard. And, um, particularly the fact that it's going to get recorded and go online is can be a scary and vulnerable thing to do. So I really appreciate that and thank [01:08:30] you to the audience for your lovely questions and your engagement and wanted to say thank you very much and let the audience give you a round of applause and thank you, Sam, and yeah, thank you.

IRN: 1055
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/30th_anniversary_of_the_homosexual_law_reform_act.html
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089755
TITLE: 30th Anniversary of the Homosexual Law Reform Act
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VOICES: Bill Sutton; Fran Wilde; Grant Robertson; Helen Clark; Kura Moeahu; Nikki Kaye; The Glamaphones; Trevor Mallard
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; 2010s; Annette King; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bill Logan; Bill Sutton; Brent Coutts; Carmen Rupe; Chris Finlayson; David Butcher; David Hindley; David McGee; Des Smith; During These Days (composition); E Te Matua (waiata); Ewen Painter; Fran Wilde; Gareth Farr; Gay Task Force; Geoffrey Palmer; Georgina Beyer; Gerard Wood; Gisborne; Grand Hall; Grant Robertson; HIV / AIDS; Hawkes Bay; Helen Clark; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Human Rights Act (1993); Jac Lynch; Jan Logie; John Banks; John Jolliff; Judy Keall; Katherine O'Regan; Kura Moeahu; Louisa Wall; Mahinarangi Tocker; Marilyn Waring; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Michael Cullen; National Party; New York City; New Zealand Labour Party; Nikki Kaye; Norman Jones; Parliament buildings; Pat McIntosh; Paul Foster-Bell; Peter Dunne; Phil Goff; Philip Patston; Ruth Dyson; Salvation Army; Social Credit Party; Speaking From the Heart (poem); The Glamaphones; Tim Barnett; Trevor Mallard; United States of America; W. H. Auden; Wellington; Wellington Gay Task Force; activism; coming out; cross political party working group; hate; hate mail; homosexual; homosexual law reform; human rights; law; letter bomb; lifestyle; marriage equality; poetry; politics; pride; school; suicide prevention; visibility; youth
DATE: 6 July 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Grand Hall, Parliament buildings, Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the 30th Anniversary of the Homosexual Law Reform Act event, held in the Grand Hall, Parliament on 6 July 2016. This was also the first-time the rainbow flag had been flown at Parliament.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: [00:00:30] mhm. OK, Yeah. [00:01:00] [00:01:30] Ladies and gentlemen, I would like to now introduce the deputy speaker of the House of Representatives as honourable Trevor Mallard. So, uh, um, we're here to [00:02:00] celebrate what happened on a Wednesday night, uh, 30 years ago, and I've got a run sheet, and it's got me doing all the thank yous, uh, at the end. Uh, but I thought it's probably better to get the acknowledgements and the thanks out of the way at the beginning because these things sometimes have a habit of getting forgotten. Um, I, I want to acknowledge, uh, the former members who voted for the legislation and who, uh, in particular, [00:02:30] the ones who are with us tonight, Uh, the right honourable Sir Geoffrey Palmer, the Honourable David Butcher, Judy Keel, Doctor Bill Sutton and, of course, Frank Wild. Um, I want to thank our hosts, the Honourable Christopher Finlayson and the, uh, honourable Nicky Kay. The people who have actually done a lot of the work. Um, Pat McIntosh, who has, uh, made [00:03:00] a wonderful nightclub, uh, out of our grand hall. Uh, Jack Lynch, who is responsible for, uh, what I'm told is a flag, uh, which is which is, uh, before us. And I must say it wasn't lovely to be out the front. When the rainbow flag went up at dawn this morning, it was It was something that was very special. Uh, and, uh, Gerard Wood, who, uh, has been in charge [00:03:30] of logistics and dealing with a not inconsiderable bureaucracy around here. Um, I want to thank um, the cross party group in particular, Jan Logan and Louisa Wall, uh, for the work that they've done, uh, on organising this. But most of all, I want to welcome both my parliamentary colleagues and everyone else here tonight. The programme is, um, [00:04:00] is relatively simple. As soon I'm going to ask Nicky Kay to speak. Uh, the glamour phones will then sing. Uh, Fran Wilde Will will speak. Uh, Doctor Bill Sutton, uh, will recite a poem. We have an intervention from New York. Uh, and, uh, and then Grant Robertson, uh, will, uh, make some comments in relation to, uh, current [00:04:30] members. Um, then the event will finish, uh, but there will be a bit of entertainment, uh, from the Gamo phones. Uh, for the third time, Um, on the occasion that we, uh Well, we have some have some some drinks, et cetera. So, um, as I, uh, invite Nicky, uh, to come up. I want to, uh, acknowledge the progress [00:05:00] that we've made in our parliament. Uh, over the years, there wasn't in 1986 when the legislation went through, there was not one out lesbian, gay or bisexual member of Parliament. Um, I think for most of us, members of Parliament and certainly for me, the only transsexual that I knew, uh, was Carmen. And I only knew Carmen because my father taught Carmen at school. And many of you [00:05:30] will know that Carmen's name was Trevor. And my father says I wasn't named after Trevor Ropa, but, um And then, of course, Georgina. Georgina, with whom I went to school and used to admire when she danced at the balcony. Um, back then, there were only three non labour votes for the bill. And if those votes, uh, went the other way and the other votes stayed the same, uh, then [00:06:00] the bill would have failed. So, um, no one from social credit? Um, not many from national, but a lot of labour MP S uh, voted for it But the thing that sort of like a secret around that's gradually, uh, getting out. And that was that. There were two other, um, members of Parliament at the time. Um, I'm not going to name them, but I will note that they're both now knights [00:06:30] of one of our, uh, one of one of, uh, the United Kingdom's who were prepared to vote for the bill if, in fact, we needed, uh, the numbers. Um, but now, of course, we have a cross party group, uh, involving, uh, all of the parties, uh, we've got a lot more involvement from across the house, and I think it's it's really good. Uh, that Chris has helped put this on. I'm I You know, I known Nicky for [00:07:00] a long time, so she won't mind me. I've known her for half half her life, so she won't mind me saying that I would have preferred to have Chris here. He can't, uh, he can't be here. Uh, but I really want to welcome, uh, Nicky to address us as a host. [00:07:30] Good evening. Uh, can I firstly, start by acknowledging, uh, thank you very much for, um, the welcome that we had this evening. Um, Look, uh, our deputy Speaker Trevor has already, um, acknowledged a range of people. Um, and I'm gonna make some very brief comments because I actually think it's a huge privilege to be hosting this with Chris. Um, but actually, this evening belongs to the warriors who [00:08:00] fought for this legislation. It belongs to, uh, people like Fran Wilde who deserve to be standing here and talking about what it meant. So I will speak very briefly. Um, so, firstly, at the outset, um, just to talk a little bit about those warriors, I had a a brief history lesson from Fran when I walked in. Uh, thank you, Um, about how long? She actually fought for this. So it wasn't 1986. [00:08:30] It was actually, I think 1981 that the first, uh, time she took something to caucus. Um, so at the outset, can I just acknowledge all of the people in the room, Um, the people that are here that voted for the legislation, the people that are not here that are no longer with us, and as a member of Parliament for Ponsonby in Auckland Central, um, I have had the privilege of meeting people who have been huge advocates in [00:09:00] in the LGBT RQ community who have passed away. And so I don't underestimate, um, the fight and the warriors that fought for this legislation. Uh, can we acknowledge you? Um, secondly, there are a range of members of parliament in the room, and I do want to, um, acknowledge what Trevor has said. There were only three, non labour MP S that voted for this bill. So we do need to acknowledge the Labour Party and the contribution that you have made in terms of LGBTI [00:09:30] Q rights. Uh, and again, you know, something that Fran has said to me, it was really ugly and tough, and I think we have an obligation to ensure that we continue to tell our young people um, and I spend quite a lot quite a lot of time as minister of youth, with young LGBTI Q, um, New Zealanders. [00:10:00] Um, while we've got a way to go, there are a whole lot of people that fought for us, and it was really, really tough. So I just want to tonight acknowledge that, uh and then just finally, um, as well um, Lesa, you're here. Um, and the cross party group, who have really, um, worked to organise this, um, we have a We still have a way to go. We definitely have a way to go. Um, but the passing of the marriage equality, Um, Bill, it shouldn't have taken [00:10:30] so long. Um, but I want to acknowledge you in particular for the way that you have held yourself, uh, and worked with so many members across the house, um, to continue to make progress and all of the members of parliament, whatever colour you are that are in the room this evening, that's the way that we will continue. And really, um, ensure that the people that fought for the spill can continue to see that progress Have a wonderful evening Glamour phones. I love you. You're amazing. We're looking forward to hearing [00:11:00] your performance, Uh, just to acknowledge everybody who has been here this evening. Uh, thank you. And I'm going to invite the glamour phones to, uh, come forward again for, uh, what is going to be a very special item, But as they as they do it, I am going to give, uh, what might be described as a health warning. Um, I think I'm a good person [00:11:30] to give it because I'm I've been arrested for obscene language before. Uh, and I want to say that if people are are sensitive, um, then, uh, you might be shocked. Um, the one point that I'll make is that while the legislation was going through, I had a couple of young daughters aged, I think four and six, as it was passed, Um, they got quite a lot of obscene language on the phone. In the end, what we did was we kept a whistle [00:12:00] by the phone, which was blown when people said, uh, rude words. Now, this this piece, um uh, is a piece that Gareth Far, uh, has, uh, done the music for, uh, we are exceptionally lucky to be, uh, at the first public outing of it. And I also want to acknowledge, uh, Philip, uh, Pat and and, uh, Brent coz who have who were [00:12:30] the poets? Uh, who have done the words. I'll give you the glamour phones. Are you a base at school? They told me to mouth the words. It's, um institute. [00:13:00] [00:13:30] Yeah, OK, yes. [00:14:00] Senses [00:14:30] [00:15:00] Time. [00:15:30] Yeah, your house. [00:16:00] [00:16:30] So, Dad Me? You? Yeah. So so sorry. Square this regard. [00:17:00] So am I. 175. 06. I'm a prude. I'm a sexual can suck up and stuck it out the most talk about these days, [00:17:30] please. They're the men came in? No. [00:18:00] And yes, [00:18:30] [00:19:00] [00:19:30] another. Um, it's now my very, uh, pleasant duty to, uh, ask, uh, the sponsor of the bill, Um, my friend Fran [00:20:00] Wilde to come and address us 12. Um, look, this is such a phenomenal celebration. Um, and thank you, la phones. And that was a wonderful piece, which we need [00:20:30] to keep going. Um, I haven't prepared any speech notes tonight. I just want to thank a few people and and and just take us back a little. This is a celebration of parliament, and it's really important that we're having this here tonight. So thank you, Nikki and Chris for, um, being our hosts. We are so lucky to actually live in a country that has a parliament that can change laws like this. So we should celebrate that, [00:21:00] actually, and and and you know, that is a really important thing when you see what's going on in other parts of the world. There are, um, many, many countries where people just could not do this, uh, sort of law change. And we're lucky to have a country where the institutions of the state do actually respond, albeit very slowly at times to law changes. And, you know, those are most of us are impatient, [00:21:30] and nothing's ever good enough or fast enough. But actually things have happened. And when you look back 30 years, um, it is a different world for New Zealand. So today I was just being interviewed by TV NZ and there was the rainbow flag outside Parliament, and oh, that was amazing. And the thought of that, um Norm would be turning in his grave. Uh, so So, um, this [00:22:00] was a campaign that was essentially a parliamentary campaign, but it actually happened on the streets. So I there's a few people I want to thank today a few groups and I will start with the group here in Parliament. So the MP S who were who voted for it and who are here tonight, thank you very much. And most of you also were active on the bill campaign and and frankly, um, were phenomenal supports. I particularly want to, um thank Trevor and Ruth [00:22:30] Dyson, Um, who worked tirelessly and frankly, this could not have happened without them. Um, I can't believe Trevor is now the deputy speaker. He's such a Larrain. I mean, why would you? It's kind of like a turn gamekeeper, I suppose. But, um, but he is. And that's what happens when people get older and more sedate. I suppose so. Um, this this was we had a huge campaign going out of the It was the whips office. Actually, Mike Cullen was the other [00:23:00] whip, and our staff are phenomenal, and I want to acknowledge them as well. Uh, Marion Line and Mike P a who can't be here tonight Just was so efficient. And we had young people can't understand this. It was pretty, pretty much pre digital, so we had thousands of letters coming in. We had thousands of letters going out. We had, um, paper for Africa. Joie, Gina Joie is here tonight. Jody was the young office assistant who was the one who was taught how to detect litter bombs because she opened the mail. [00:23:30] I mean, that's how it was and we had an enormous, uh, group of volunteers who came in you and painters here tonight. Um, Bill, I've seen you. Uh, I can't I'm sorry. I should have looked at the guest list because I missed somebody out. Um, de de here tonight. Um, but, you know, there was a whole group who came in and they actually helped run the campaign from in here. Essentially, we knew it was a public education campaign. When the bill was introduced, 19 MP S would have voted for its third reading [00:24:00] and we had to get the others over the line by getting their communities to say yes. It's OK to vote for the bill, which is what they did. So the campaign on the streets was huge and it stretched right the way through the country. We had the gay task force in Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch and many other groups around the country. And the the the The thing that I the one thing that I think was the most important was visibility. So the second group I want to acknowledge tonight [00:24:30] are all the brave gay men who came out during the campaign. Had we failed, they would have been so I mean, they were pretty amazing. They put their whole life and their jobs, many of them on the line by coming out. And I don't know what would have happened if we hadn't got the bill through. So that was absolutely critical because New Zealanders need to know that gay men were not child molesters. [00:25:00] That's what how they are being portrayed. In fact, I read some of the debate today, I just to refresh myself. And I realised that they were actually saying in the House, This is going to legalise six or 12 year old boys. That's what they were saying. So, um, you know, the the gay community were phenomenal and particularly those men who came out and were highly visible, Thank you very much. New Zealand owes you a great debt. Um, the other, um, people to acknowledge are all of the people that helped we [00:25:30] had a lot of help. It wasn't, you know that. Sure, the S were supporting the petition and the fundamentalist churches were, um, putting in heaps of money, and they had propaganda and speakers from the US and and they were really going for it. But there were others who were working with us. And in the end, um, actually good triumphed because it was good. And those of you who are in the house at the time will recall that the people who were against this the ringleaders, not all of them but the ringleaders [00:26:00] who were the ones that spoke the most, were obsessive about bodily functions. That's all they could talk about was sex, which did make us wonder about a few of them. But, um and we were talking about relationships and love and the ability for people to lead normal lives and just be, you know, functioning members of the community. And it was kind of we were talking past each other. They were two different conversations. And of course, now, um, there would still be New Zealanders who would talk as the opposition people did then [00:26:30] those opposing the bill, but not so many. And frankly, the whole of society has changed, Which doesn't mean to say it's perfect. So the third group I want to acknowledge tonight, uh, the young, um LGBT community in New Zealand um, these, um, youngsters and I had a group of them here tonight from Gisborne. Well done. Uh, they came. They came and saw me yesterday and did an interview. They making a a do. So I've told [00:27:00] I've asked Television New Zealand If they could interview them, I think they should, because these these people are our future. And we've still got some work to do to, um, you know, to make life safe and great for them as well. And I think it's really important that we remember that everything we do, we do on the shoulders of others. And we're doing it for the next ones who come after us. So all of you who have been involved and those in Parliament have changed and the others who have changed laws since [00:27:30] to make New Zealand a better place. Well done. It's It's all of our celebration tonight, and, um, there's a few parties going on. I think so. This was the day the Wednesday private Member's Day can remember, Chief. Every Wednesday we had to make sure all our voters were there and it went on for several months. It just went on and on and on, and, uh, that it was wearing people down tactics, and we needed to have all the numbers there because they tried to pull votes of closure and putting the vote [00:28:00] when they thought that we didn't have enough people. So, um, it was a great triumph for democracy, actually. And I want to again thank everybody involved. You were all fabulous. And let's have a good party tonight. Thank you. Thank you, Fran II. I just want to make two points and one is to reinforce [00:28:30] the the last point that Fran made about how hard it was We had to win every vote. If they won one, we were gone, and and And the bill would have been the bill could have been totally lost. We we actually did lose one section of the bill, the human rights, Uh, part of the bill. Uh, and that was exceptionally sad. The good thing was that Catherine O'Regan, who voted, uh, for the bill reintroduced [00:29:00] that, um, seven or eight years later and it flew through the parliament, and I think that was a great indication of way. Uh, that attitudes have changed. The second point that I want to make is just to reinforce the fact that, um, while a tonnes of things happened on the street and there were leaders right through the community that this sort of change didn't happen. Especially [00:29:30] uh, at that time without superb leadership. And Fran provided that leadership. And I just want people to say thank you to her again. I know now want to, uh, invite my former colleague, uh, Bill Sutton, to give us a part? [00:30:00] Let's see if if you can hear me, people can hear that great. 30 years ago, I was the Labour MP, representing the provincial seat of Hawke's Bay in my electorate Committee was seriously concerned about the homosexual law reform bill, but I was determined to support it anyway. And in the end, I don't think it cost me many votes. [00:30:30] I'd like to thank the the organisers of this gathering for allowing me to read my poem about the climactic debate of 30 years ago. The poem is called speaking from the Heart, and I chose not to publish it in my first poetry collection two years ago. But it is included in my second collection, which is being launched next month. Speaking [00:31:00] from the heart, the Homosexual Law Reform Bill introduced by Fran Wilde provided one of those rare occasions when an MP can choose what to say and whether to speak at all. Being intensely controversial, it resulted in a flood of letters covering a full range of lunacy [00:31:30] from religious nuts demanding hanging to women advocating castration. So I was intent on saying two things. Homosexuality is not a lifestyle chosen by a pervious minority, but a fact of human biology. We learn about when we grow up [00:32:00] and homosexual love can be as devastating and glorious is any other form of human love. Then I read a poem by WH or lay your sleeping Head, my love human on my faithless arm. Catherine O'Regan MP, an intelligent [00:32:30] national party woman who replaced Marilyn wearing, listened intently and nodded agreement. John Banks, another national MP, the avowed enemy of homosexuals who used his own earlier speech to viciously attack a liberal colleague, was also present. [00:33:00] After the speeches were over, I gathered up my papers and lift the debating chamber to phone my wife in Napier, receiving no answer Next day. The papers ignored my speech. I mailed out hundreds of copies to constituents of all persuasions and received not one reply [00:33:30] but ti a total surprise. I received a signed handwritten note from the honourable John Banks. MP Dear Bell, your speech last night on the homosexual bill was really rather good. [00:34:00] John Banks. I shall treasure that note until I die as written evidence that despite all the contrary evidence, speaking from the heart in parliament is not a total waste of time. [00:34:30] You you're you're very kind. Uh, and I hope that you haven't felt that listening to this poem was a total waste of your time. Right? II I am informed that we, uh that we have, uh, a message from one [00:35:00] who we used to know as she who shall be obeyed from New York. The 30th anniversary of the passage of the homosexual law reform bill brings back a lot of memories. Those were pretty tough parliamentary debates, and I remember being one of Fran Wild's foot soldiers set out to do the speeches around the country in support of the bill. I remember a wonderful audience in Nelson, for example, a very progressive town. But not everyone was progressive on [00:35:30] these issues. So it was a hard fought debate, but look so critical in the fight for human rights, for dignity, for equality for every human being in New Zealand, we set a good example for others to follow. And it was also, at the time, so essential in the fight against HIV. So looking back, Fran was brave. The parliament stepped up not by a big majority, but a past. And that paved the way for better things to come in. [00:36:00] Yeah, I'm now going to hand over to Grant Robertson who has something to say. Greetings, everybody, Um, the low light, um maybe isn't, um totally conducive without the nightclub music to the party atmosphere. But, um, I want, um just to indulge [00:36:30] you for a few more minutes. You've been extremely, um, good with your time and your attention, and we're only gonna hold you back from the bar for just a couple more minutes. Can I just start by asking my parliamentary colleagues, Lewis of Wall, Paul Foster Bell and Jen Loy to join me up here on the stage? If they are around Paul? Uh, so, um, these folk and myself and others represent [00:37:00] part of the of the cross party Rainbow Group, and we want to do, uh, something now. um to kind of recognise the parliamentary nature of of this occasion. Earlier in the year, we had a fantastic event. Um, as part of, um, pride Week here in Wellington, where we really did acknowledge the community members, Um, who did so much, uh, for this campaign. And lots of you are in the room tonight, and any event that I go to that's got Dez and John and Bill Logan and and all [00:37:30] of that group is always a good event, so I really want to acknowledge and thank you. But tonight is a night for us to talk about the, uh, parliamentary side of things. So the first person I'd like to ask to come up here to receive, uh, a special gift is Fran Wild Fran, can you just pop back up again? So, um, Fran, this is probably something Fran never ever wants to see again. But what this is is the actual, [00:38:00] um, bill with its royal assent or the act the Law Reform Act with royal assent. Um, so it's it is done. So by the time it was the ninth of July. So by the 11th of July, David McGee said this bill has been passed by the House of Representatives, New Zealand and has the royal assent. It has, um, the pictures of Jeffrey. So your signature is on here. Jeffrey Palmer is the attorney general and of the Prime Minister, David Lange. And the bill is attached to it. Fran, I want to present this to you on behalf of all of the parliamentarians [00:38:30] of today All of your colleagues from the and this entire room of people. Um, I've said this to you personally before, but I'll say it on the stage now. I wouldn't be here as a member of Parliament if it wasn't for Fran. Number one he does. There won't be enough. You'll come back for photos, Fran. That's [00:39:00] what will happen. Uh, now, um, we've acknowledged that there are former MP S who are who are, um, here tonight, Um, who supported the bill? Um, Judy Keel, Jeffrey Palmer, David Butcher, Bill Sutton and Fran. I want to thank you again, but there's some stayers with us, and I want them to join me on the stage. Now, Uh, that's the honourable Phil Goff, the honourable Annette King and the honourable Peter Dunn. Can you please all come forward now [00:39:30] and and I'm coming to that. I'm coming to that. I love my caucus colleagues so trusting. In addition, there's a person who wasn't an MP in 1986 [00:40:00] but has already been acknowledged tonight for the incredible role that she played. Um, in those days, behind the scenes, she is now a member of the House of Representatives. And that is the honourable Ruth Dyson. And as you saw from some of the images that [00:40:30] were popping up particularly when Fran was speaking, there was a photograph. Um, that was up behind us. I. I think most of you have seen it. It was a photograph of of Trevor, Ruth and Fran. Um, I've got to say the first, the the first equal for people who look pretty much as they did then are Fran and Ruth. There is a bronze medal available, Trevor. So So what I'm also [00:41:00] gonna do now is to each of of these wonderful people lined up beside me here, I'm gonna give them the same thing that I've given. Fran. These are numbered copies of the assented bill. We, as parliamentarians are today, uh, and and the parliamentarians who come and there are others in the room tonight, Like Marion Street, who I'd like to acknowledge, Um, here as well, Georgina by who's here as well. Um, Tim Barnett, who can't be here and others Who we who we've had contact from from the cross party group. Uh, from [00:41:30] all of those MP S to those of you who are still with us today, um, you, uh, have our eternal gratitude. Um, you stood up as Bill Sutton said before, Uh, when people told you you'd lose your seats, you didn't. Some of you lost them later for other reasons, which is the subject of another seminar on Friday. But, um but for this, we are extremely grateful, and I want to thank you very much indeed. [00:42:00] Right. So as far as I know, that's it for these bits of the formalities. Um, but I'll hand you back to Trevor. But can I just say, um, just before we finish to pick up Fran's one of Fran's points? Um, please. As a group of people who were part of things 30 years ago, remember that there are still fights to win, and I particularly want to give a shout [00:42:30] out to the younger people in the room. The members of inside out and the other groups who are here with us tonight, please support what they do. Um, the needs of young people today in our LGBTI community still exist. And they need your help. Thank you. You can you can sort of you sort of trust grant when I've got the role to wrap things up just to see the lines completely. Um, but I do want to repeat my thanks to, uh uh, to Nicky [00:43:00] and Chris, uh, for being being the host to, uh, to thank, um, Bill Sutton and Grant, uh, for the comments that you've made to, uh, especially thank Fran. Uh, not only for that work, but for making himself available. Uh, time and time again, uh, for celebrations. I wanna thank Gareth far, uh, and the glama phones. Um, it sort of sounds a bit like grace, you know, for [00:43:30] what we've had and what we're about to receive. Um, and to reiterate, um, that the work goes on goes on in the community. It goes on parliament. Um, our cross party group has got ourselves a few challenges at the moment. But what I'd really love to see is us. Make schools safe. And to make sure that are not too long. [00:44:00] LGBTI youth suicides are either or or just the same level as all others. Thank you all for coming, Yes.

IRN: 1048
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/enough_is_enough_georgina_beyer.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004460
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089754
TITLE: Enough is Enough - MP Georgina Beyer confronts Destiny Church followers
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Georgina Beyer
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2000s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Brian Tamaki; Civil Union Act (2004); Destiny Church; Enough is Enough (2004, Destiny Church rally); Georgina Beyer; Member of Parliament; Parliament buildings; Wellington; civil unions; hate; march
DATE: 23 August 2004
YEAR: 2004
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: MP Georgina Beyer confronts Destiny Church followers on the steps of Parliament during the Enough is Enough march and rally.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: They there? We with the I'm happy to stare you in the eye. Why do you hate people like us? Be real Christians. I've known much more Christian charity from other people than what I've seen from you today. [00:00:30] Well, I'm gonna come and look at each and every one of you. I don't mind at all. Your hatred is totally intolerable. Why do you deny law abiding New Zealand citizens who happen to have a difference the same rights as yourself? How dare you use the cloak of Christianity when you imparting to your Children [00:01:00] prejudice discrimination toward people like me, gays and lesbians and other people who live differently. But abide the law and pay their taxes. Why do you do this to us? You're not going to win. You haven't. I have trust in New Zealanders that they will be fair minded as they always have been. Because the democracy that I live in made it possible for somebody like me to be here in this place, [00:01:30] serving the privilege of service to people in New Zealand. And you would deny me rights. Why do you do that? Have you got another message other than Jesus loves you. What else was Jesus telling you? Can anybody else other than Brian Tamaki speak? Do you have your own voices? [00:02:00] No, you don't. You don't want me to marry. You don't want me to have Children. You want to control other people's lives, so they're like yours.

IRN: 1046
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TITLE: Interviews with members of The Glamaphones and co
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VOICES: Cathie Teague; Gareth Farr; Gerard Wood; Graeme Austin; Kirsty Farrant; Laura Greenfield; Pat McIntosh; Rachel Hyde; Roger Swanson
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Brent Coutts; Cathie Teague; David Hindley; During These Days (composition); During These Days (poem); Gareth Farr; Gerard Wood; Graeme Austin; Grand Hall; Hamish Allardice; Homophones (Wellington); Kirsty Farrant; Laura Greenfield; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Linda Evans; London; Mark Beehre; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Naming Ourselves (poem); New Zealand Army; New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF); New Zealand Symphony Orchestra; Orlando (Florida, USA); Orlando mass killing (2016); Parliament buildings; Pat McIntosh; Philip Patston; Pulse nightclub (Orlando, USA); Rachel Hyde; Roger Swanson; Solidarity with Orlando Candlelight Vigil (Wellington); Stella Duffy; The Glamaphones; United Kingdom; United States of America; Wellington; Wellington City Council; activism; anti-gay laws; archives; army; celebration; choirs; coming out; community; community choir; composition; digitisation; emotional; equality; flags; friends; gay men's chorus; hate; hate crime; homosexual law reform; human rights; inclusion; love; marriage equality; music; musical repertoire; phoenix up; poetry; posters; pridenz. com; protest; reclaim; scrapbook; singing; support; theatre
DATE: 18 June 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: St Andrew's on the Terrace, 30 The Terrace, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast we speak to members of The Glamaphones and co. before their concert at St. Andrew's on the Terrace celebrating 30 years of homosexual law reform.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi, I'm Pat McIntosh, Um, and producer for the glamour phones, Uh, Wellington's gay choir. And we're at Saint Andrews today for, um, one of our well, our big concert for the year, which is the celebrating the 30 years of homosexual law reform. It's something that we've we've wanted to do since last year with our programming, um, to really get on board So many events happening around in Wellington [00:00:30] and, um, this year with the rainbow community and so the suggestion was put forward with our programming is to do something really special and, um, celeb celebrate. So that's why we're all here today, and we've completely rainbow out. ST. Andrews, can you describe how Saint Andrews is looking? Um, we've got, um, rainbow helium balloons. We've got the Wellington's large gay flag draped across the organ. We've got, um, it's just looking so, so rainbow. I don't think I've ever seen any [00:01:00] of a place or rainbow is this, um and we've set up. Um, some large scale projection was the first time we've ever done it this way, where we've mapped into the actual, um, the century of the church. So, um, it's quite a big project. Um, with a to get this happening like this. Um, yeah, and so what images are going to be displayed into the church? So, um, we applied for a grant through the Wellington, um, culture Arts fund. And they gave us some funding to actually, [00:01:30] um, work with Gans to pull out all the images that people hadn't seen before and posters and then put that into the A V. So we've got we've got is that you've seen on pride NZ the David Henley. He's given us permission to use them. And, um, but I also wanted to bring out stuff that's just sitting in the archives at LA So that's all been used, um, to have all throughout the songs, we've got all this different, different imagery all coming up through it. So it's quite exciting. So that must have been [00:02:00] quite a huge research effort to actually go and track all those images down. Yeah, I've I've spent a few a few afternoons up there with Roger and Linda, and it's been fun. Um, I think the thing that really blew me away was the scrap books up there with all the newspaper articles from the Dominion Post. Um, and just just you can't help but just sit there and start reading. Um, I just can't believe, um just the enormity of, um, emotion with with the homosexual law reform [00:02:30] and in the months that it was going through and and looking at scrapbooks is where you really actually, it really hits you. Of what? You know, all the news. It was just constantly in the news, both sides. So, um, yeah, quite an emotional thing to do to research it all and then pull it all out. And then, of course, deciding what to put with what tracks and what songs and things, but, um, hugely important, I think. And we've got a lot of stuff now that's actually been digitised that I've got that then can be put up onto the web. So it's worked quite [00:03:00] well. And can you talk a wee bit about the songs that are going to be sung today? What? What's the programme like? Well, the big the big thing when we were programming was, um we decided that to ask Gareth for to, um, work with the glamour phones. He'd never worked with us before. And I'd worked with them on theatre productions. So, um, and Rachel also worked with them, Um, when she was at the N. So So the idea was to get a commission from Gareth, Um, that that captured what it [00:03:30] was like back then. Then there's sort of a big discussion what we were going to use and we decided, you know, he said, we need to get find some lyrics, whether that's a poem or something that he could write the music to. So then Roger helped helped us find, um he was giving us gay poetry books, and we were sort of looking through them all. And we came across one from Brent Coates called Naming Ourselves That Really struck us and also, uh, one from Phil Patterson. So during these days, so we sort of took them to Gareth and, um, he looked at them and was [00:04:00] inspired. He also I showed him the actually the five minute video that you'd made with the photographs. Um and yeah, that really got him. Got him into a place to write. Write this piece and it's really it's, you know, there's the big discussion. Do we write this big celebration anthem, Gay anthem, but it's actually, um I think everyone will be quietly surprised, Um, and taken with what he's come up with, Um, it's because it was hard. [00:04:30] It was hard for everybody. And I think Gareth's really captured that in the piece. So it's really beautiful. So tonight is the world premier. Yes, tonight is the world premier. And we've got Gareth, who's just flown back from Taiwan this afternoon, and he will be with us. And we've got some MP S coming and, um, yeah, special. Can you just describe, um, the glamour phones? How, How, how many voices and where did that come from? Um, the glamour phones. We've got about 50 to 60 members. Um, [00:05:00] in it. It's started as the home of phones with just the men. And then, in 2011, um, at the Asia Pacific Art Games, they decided to ask the woman to join. And, um, it's just grown from strength to strength. So it's a really strong, uh, Rainbow choir. Um, and I think that's because there's a lot of it's about community. It's about friendship. We've got. There's lots of different ages. Um, it's non addition auditioned, So that's quite a big thing. Um, you know, you don't [00:05:30] if you're thinking you're joining a choir and you go, I don't know whether I can pass that audition. Well, it's not. And it's more about the community. Um, you don't have to be able to read music. Um, and we just have lots of fun and, um, the sort of the whole I've sort of come on board the last couple of years from a theatre background. So I've sort of tried to bring those skills in and and get us even more glam where they glamouring And, um so the production values have sort of Each time we come out, we sort of raise them up a bit. And [00:06:00] it's all it's all just just about sharing the love. Really? And finally what What does this concert tonight mean to you? Um, it's been it's been quite an emotional thing because I wasn't I wasn't out back in. Um, I just about I was just about I came out, probably. Oh, I actually run away overseas with my girlfriend. So, um, but it only just after a couple of months after the bill passing [00:06:30] and made that decision, but still didn't come out with anybody, um, till about five years after that. So, um, it's been quite emotional. I think it's to be able to pull everything out from the gas. And for people to see it is, is, is, um, is something that I've always wanted to do, and I think that's great. And to tie it in with the glamour phones, Um, it's just music is a beautiful way to to do a message and to put the imagery with music. I think it's just, um it's something that I just love [00:07:00] doing. So it's been, um, yeah, I don't know how to explain it, Gareth. It's just it's been It's Yeah, I'm taping my heart. So, um, and we get to take this to Parliament, so there's going to be on the sixth of July. Um, we'll be singing the three songs. One of them will be Gareth's, and there'll be another two songs that will sing, and we'll have the images projected into the Grand Hall. So that was something for me being a little bit of a gorilla political person. Um, I [00:07:30] wanted to put put the protesters that protested back at Parliament, and I wanted to. I actually wanted to project them at the front of parliament, but that, you know, that wasn't gonna happen. So I've sort of got snuck in the in the back door, and we're going to put them in the Grand Hall on the ceiling. So that's sort of quite a lovely full circle, I think, to bring them back the the laws passed. And, um, all all those placards that you guys wrote years ago are going to end up back in Parliament on the ceiling. So I quite like that, [00:08:00] but yeah, I love the singing. I mean, I love coming together with, um, gay and lesbian people and and, um, singing. There's something pretty wonderful about that. It's a lovely thing to be doing on a Thursday night and then doing it. You know, these performances every now and again. How long have you been involved with this choir? I was a member of the home of phones when it first got started. I think right from the beginning. So Gosh, I'm trying to work out what that would be five years ago, I think now, six years ago and so what drew [00:08:30] you to the choir. Um, I we my partner and I used to live in the United States, and we were part of a gay men's chorus in Tucson, Arizona. Um, and that was, you know, a fabulous thing, too. And it was really just as we moved back. Uh, Hamish Aladi and a group of other people like Mark Berry got the homophones together. And so it was a really nice way of getting back into Wellington, having been away for so long. What does tonight's performance mean to you? Well, I mean, of course, it's, um, [00:09:00] the 30 year anniversary of the Homosexual Law Reform Act. Um, so that is, um, a wonderful thing to do. Of course, it's, um we're all sort of shell shocked as a result of what happened in Orlando, Florida, um, as well. And it it's a reminder about not being complacent about, uh, our physical safety. Um, and of course, the the the deaths are enormously tragic and [00:09:30] just horrific. Um, but it's part of a I mean for me. I mean, it's just a reminder. It's part of a syndrome of anti gay lesbian queer people movements around the world. So in the past, couple of years, for example, there have been 200 bills introduced into legislatures around the United States trying to reduce the rights of gay, lesbian and transgender um, people. Um, and so, unfortunately, we still live in a culture where, um [00:10:00] there is hatred and antagonism. Lots to celebrate, lots to be enormously positive about, Um, but it is, um, a reminder that that our our personal safety is jeopardised. One of my friends, um, Stella Duffy was actually interviewed on Radio New Zealand this morning. She's got a wonderful blog where she talks about Phoenix sing up again, Um, which is, you know, part of what we do. I've been working with the glamour phones for just over [00:10:30] a year now. This is my third concert series. Um, I have a long history of conducting orchestras and even the odd classical choir. Uh, but this is really my first foray into the community and gay choir world, and I just happened to take a rehearsal one night, and I loved it so much. It was so much fun that when the job came up, I really felt I had absolutely no choice but to apply for it. I thought, If only I could get that job really didn't think I would. But we clicked and I did get the job, and the rest is history. It's just been an amazing year of of getting to know these [00:11:00] great great people and making some wonderful music. So what are the differences between, uh, a choir and a community choir? A community choir is pretty much open to anyone, so there's no requirements in terms of ability, whether you can or can't read music. Whether you've got any background in music at all, you just turn up and have a sing. And whether you're brilliant or terrible, it makes absolutely no difference. There's a place for everyone in a community choir. How was that like to conduct challenging and fun in equal [00:11:30] measure? You really have to think very hard about how you pace rehearsals. Make sure that you're not letting anyone phase out, either because it's too hard or because it's too easy. We have some very capable musicians in this choir and some people who don't read music at all, but who have a great musical soul and I to make sure that a rehearsal works for all of those different people, so that can be quite challenging and quite tiring. But at the same time, it means that you get a really honest musical response from people. And that's just the best feeling in the world that they go straight to the heart [00:12:00] of the piece. They understand the emotion of it, and that's what they give you without any musical preconceptions. And so being a rainbow choir, does that change the kind of repertoire or influence the repertoire that you see? Yes, it does. To an extent. I think that's something I'm really learning and coming to terms with as I as I grow with the choir. Uh, there's a balance between making sure that the music that you pick reflects the choir and what the choir means. And a lot of that obviously is about sexual identity and, uh, but also about freedom [00:12:30] of expression and community and family and belonging. And those things all go together at the same time. I want to give them musical challenges and opportunities to to sing types of music that they wouldn't necessarily come across. That's one of the reasons I think they gave me. The job was that I had a classical background and could bring a different flavour of music. So I really work hard to try to make sure that the choir gets a bit of a bit of gay anthem, a bit of splendour and uh, a bit of drag if they want, [00:13:00] but also some genuinely, um, alternative music types, whether it's folk music, world music, um, classical music, and then balance that across a programme. So can you talk about tonight's programme? Why? Why is tonight's programme special? This is a really important concert for the choir. It's, uh, marking 30 years since the Homosexual Law Reform Act came into force. It was a massive moment in New Zealand history for the people of New Zealand, um, whether they're part of the gay community or not, [00:13:30] and we're really thrilled and honoured that we could programme our concerts this year to coincide with that anniversary. Um, so there's a lot of music in the programme that relates to 1986 whether it's Cindy Law or crowded house. Um, so there's a lot of memory of the time. There are also pieces that are a little bit more broadly about gay rights in New Zealand. So, for instance, we're singing Poke Cara, which, of course, is a hugely well known and loved Kiwi classic. But it was, um, Imprompt sang in an impromptu fashion [00:14:00] in the houses of Parliament when the marriage equality, um, legislation was passed a couple of years ago and then possibly most importantly, we're seeing a new work by Gareth Farr, which we've commissioned especially for this occasion, which is, uh, a marking the celebration and also Commemorating some of the more difficult times that the gay community has gone through in its effort to obtain equal rights. Can you tell me a bit more about Gareth's piece? Gareth's piece is absolutely amazing. I think we're really lucky that he's taken the approach he [00:14:30] has. I think Gareth is a composer who's really known for, uh, quite large, complex, often bombastic, quite striking music, a lot of ethnic influence in his music, Um, and he's taken a completely different, different approach to this song. He's dug into his own personal history and his memories of what it was like being a kid in 1986. Um, and a lot of it is about memories of not being happy of being, uh, in darker times, uh, feeling persecuted. And he's taken those feelings into this [00:15:00] piece and and created something which is incredibly heartfelt, quite painful. And there's a part of it is almost quite scary. You sit in the audience and you can feel what he was feeling all those years ago. He's picked a couple of great poems, one by Philip Patton and one by Brent Coots, who are both gay poets from New Zealand. And their words are full of similar feelings. Um, feelings of pain, of fear, Uh, and then also a reclamation of identity, which is very important. [00:15:30] And Gareth just combined those words with his great sense of melody and of structure to create a piece that is pretty unique. I think we're incredibly lucky to have got this from him on a personal level. What does tonight mean for you? Oh, gosh, um, I'm a little nervous. This is a really major event for the choir. It's the first of five concerts that we're doing, culminating in a performance in Parliament, uh, marking the Homosexual Law Reform Act. Um, and for me, it's it's about communicating [00:16:00] the choir's personality and identity and in in the role of a leader of of this amazing group of people. So I'm I'm nervous that I can, that I do the best job that I can for them and that I reflect everything that they want to say about the meaning of this incredible event for New Zealand in terms of New Zealand history and the gay community's history. But also I just love working with this choir and I. I really just want to get out there and have some fun and and see them sing. And hopefully they can put all of their nervousness aside and [00:16:30] just come out and have a great time. And there's nothing like the feeling of standing in front of this choir when suddenly they will start dancing and they put a smile on their face. And just this immense joy and passion and love comes from the choir. And hopefully, the message that we send away at the end of tonight's concert is that, yes, there have been dark times and yes, there continue to be dark times for many people around the world and in New Zealand. But the best thing that we can do is love each other and show that love in as [00:17:00] many different ways as we can. And if we send that message tonight, then I'll be a very happy person. My name's Kathy Tea. Uh, I got involved in the choir through friends. Actually, um, I was new to Wellington, and other people who'd lived here a long time told me that the choir existed. Um, my name is Kate II. I was asked to join the choir. Hi, I'm Laura Greenfield. Um, originally from London. And I joined this choir when I arrived here. Um, because [00:17:30] that's, you know, I was in a choir in London, so I wanted to almost I wanted to replicate my life in London a little bit. So that's why I've joined the phones. So what is it about the G gramophones? What? What What kind of draws you to this one? Well, I like minded people, really, And singing. I love singing. I mean, it's it's just it's a fun. It's a fun group to be part of, Really. It's a very warm and inclusive group of people. [00:18:00] Um, it's a sense of community, but also because there's no requirement to audition you can just be part of the choir. Um, and if you're somebody like myself who doesn't read music, I can sing and enjoy myself and be with like-minded people and not have the pressure of of having to try and do something I can't. So without reading music, what is it like to to learn a new piece? Say, like Garrett's piece tonight? Sure. So the, um, practises are are great. I mean Thursday nights, a great practise for us, but also because there's sound files [00:18:30] available to us. So I think it's the It's the inclusiveness of this choir, which is really its best feature. I mean, not only our musical director, very inclusive of all the different ways that people learn to sing and express themselves. But the actual structure of it enables people to those people who do read music well and those people who don't but still join together to sing. So tonight's performance is, uh, honouring the 30th anniversary of homosexual law reform. What does tonight's performance [00:19:00] mean for you? Oh, well, I remember when the when the law went through, I was just out of school and yeah, it was a It was a really different time. I think New Zealand society has changed since then for the better. Um well, uh, was it me? I wasn't here 30 years ago, but, um, I still can appreciate what happened and, um, the struggles that people went through and how euphoric it must have been when it all happened. But, you know, [00:19:30] just like I think this this, um, concert tonight is going to be incredibly emotional. You know, this time last week, we we didn't have the the Orlando Massacre hadn't happened. And I think just it just shows like law reform. Fantastic. But still hatred around the world. Still a long way to go and yeah, so really don't feel back to square one, but I just think celebrate. But also remember that it's not as easy for for many, many other people in loads of other countries in the world. [00:20:00] Um, although I'm actually a Kiwi by birth, I was living, um, in London at the time that the, um, law reform went through, but it still feels really important. And it still feels very much recognising the fact that, um, that New Zealand has recognised the right to be who you are, um, but once again, just very conscious of what's happened in the recent history and the fact that there is that choice to be yourself here, but yeah, really conscious that other [00:20:30] places in the world just don't have that. And yeah, I I'm anticipating that it will be quite emotional for the audience as well as those of us who are singing. Yeah, What does being a part of the glamour phones mean to you? It's a huge part of my life. Um, for me, it's, um, a place where I've been able to find my voice. I hadn't sung in a choir since I was really young at, um intermediate school, and so it's allowed me to find my voice, but more than that, it's become a place that, for me, is [00:21:00] a huge part of my community. And, um, it's somewhere. I come each week for friendship, um, and support when I enjoy the social aspects of the choir as well. But, um, it's it's much more than just a choir. It's a huge, supportive aspect of my life as well. What's so special about a rainbow choir? I think, in a rainbow choir you can be who you want to be without any fear of judgement. And nobody, um, [00:21:30] nobody judges you for who you are. You just are who you are. You can be who you want to be, and nobody cares. We We're just all who we are. Really? What's your favourite piece that you perform? Oh, jeepers, that's a really hard question. Um, I I'm really enjoying this time singing songs that, um, reflect countries all around the world where, um, homosexuality is a crime and where, you know, people can receive the death sentence for being homosexual [00:22:00] and so singing, um, the Arabic song that we're singing and a Zimbabwean song, um Hozier take me to church from which has written about Russia. I just I I It makes me realise what a lucky country we're in. I mean, we I, I feel blessed to live here rather than in some of those other places where life could be quite difficult and very different. What does tonight's performance mean to you? Um, tonight's performance. I guess [00:22:30] it's part of that whole thing. Um, realising that, um, you know, we are lucky to be where we are that we are in a country that it still amazes me that it's only 30 years since homosexual law reform. And, you know, I can't imagine what it was like growing up. Um, I'm I'm certainly older than 30 but I can't imagine what it was like growing up in the generation before me how difficult that must have been for people. And I feel like there's a part of this concert that acknowledges that and the struggle that lots of people had had to go [00:23:00] through to get to where we are today. Well, if you know Saint Andrews, um, down, down at the far end, where the altar is, they've got the place decked in rainbow flags and balloons and beautiful purple lights and blue lights on the ceiling. So the place is quite atmospheric and looking very festive. Now, I've heard that some of the images that are that are going to be shown tonight, um, are from LA Yes, Well, um, Pat was in LA looking for material for this [00:23:30] concert. Um, and she was particularly interested in images that she could project on the ceiling and on the walls, et cetera. So, um, she's found posters and newspaper clippings and photos and that sort of thing, so she took a lot of images of that. So I'm looking forward to seeing what she's chosen. And the other thing she was looking for for poems from the gay and lesbian community in New Zealand, from gay poets to lesbian poets. And so she took away some of those and two of them she's chosen to be has been passed on to Gareth Far, who's turned them into words for his music. [00:24:00] So so so are there many, uh, lesbian gay transgender rainbow pots? Well, there seemed to be, and there were more than I thought there were. And, um, we just had I just picked what I could find of the New Zealand material on our shelves. And, um, there were about half a dozen sort of nine or 10 volumes, and, um, it was a matter of just going through those and seeing what was there. There were a lot of overseas pirates, too, but of course she's wanting New Zealand, so that was more appropriate. So that's and to do with law reform and the whole, um, changes in society [00:24:30] that we've gone through over the last 30 years, now. Um, so this is part of that reflection and part of the celebration. So reflecting on, uh, your personal experiences, What does tonight mean to you? Um, I think it's it's but it's sort of it's not as it's not as though we've done 30 years now. I think it's sort of more like saying, OK, we've marriage. Equality has gone through. What list of what's left is there to do. And also, um, sort of, how can we improve [00:25:00] our community and make it more responsive and reflective and support of one another? You just think of what happened in Orlando. Um, you know, these these things can happen all over the place, and they still do, and no doubt they'll continue in the future. But we need to be around to support one another and to respond and perhaps make it easier for young people to come out and to be confident in their sexuality and in their relationships. So, you know, that's our task for the future. The church has been transformed into a concert venue tonight, [00:25:30] uh, simply by, uh, using the iconic image of the rainbow. Um, some clever lighting and, um, the warmth and friendship that our friends and families are sharing as they come to, uh, prepare for our concert tonight. It's a very special night. Yeah, Yeah, it is. Uh, we're a group of people who love to sing hen and choir. And we're also, um, from the gay and lesbian transgender community. [00:26:00] And, uh, that makes the bond that we share as singers. Uh, special. Um, we're a bit different than the standard um, soprano alto tenor bass choir, And that we have, uh, a woman who sing in the tenor section and, uh, other other combinations just where people feel comfortable within their vocal range. Um, and the type of music we sing is often quite varied as well. So [00:26:30] what drew you to the choir? Oh, I've I've always loved to have a sing. I'm one of the ones in the choir who don't read music. Um, I can follow music, but I don't read music. And, um, I, uh, work situation stabilised a bit. And I had a a bit more, uh, free time. And, um, it's a great way to meet people and to, uh, you know, enjoy something you do. So Thursday night we rehearse uh, here in Wellington. And, uh, we do, uh, two concert seasons. Uh, you know, two terms [00:27:00] a year. So, um, it's a It's a great way of, uh, leaning off some steam and and enjoying a good sing along. Yeah. So tonight is marking the 30th anniversary of homosexual law reform in 86. Yeah. How far have we come? Well, interestingly, uh, when the legislation came in, I was one of the people who, uh, my employer, I'm an army officer, And, uh, they had an exemption under the legislation at that time. So, uh, when I enlisted in 1988 the defence force had an exemption, uh, around the employment of homosexuals. [00:27:30] Even at that time, Um, however, it's an exemption. They've never, uh, chosen to exercise. And so, uh, they just, uh, follow the spirit of the law, even though they legally had an exemption related to the, um, enlistment of, uh, of of gays and lesbians. So, uh, it's it's even special. I'm, uh, feel privileged to work in a defence force. That is, uh, very uh uh, um a gay gay safe place. Uh, and it's great to see these days, [00:28:00] Uh, openly gay people turning up and wanting to be recruited into our defence force. What does tonight mean for you personally? Well, a concert is important. Um, but after the, um, spontaneous coming together for the vigil on Monday night after the Orlando um, tragedy. Uh, the rehearsal on Thursday was very special. And, uh, the whole spirit of what we are marking [00:28:30] and, uh is really important because we can. In New Zealand, there are places where that clearly isn't the case. There's still hatred and bigotry. Um, so the choir feel very strongly that this is also, uh, a concert, a mark of respect for those people. Um, you know, 22 military colleagues were killed in that, um, in that tragedy. And, um uh, yeah, it's here to, um here to mark that. Personally, I think is [00:29:00] something III I would be thinking about as I think so. Gareth, your piece tonight. Tell me about it. Um, it's, uh, the most, uh, two fantastic poems that were written in the eighties. Uh, and it's the first time I've ever written a piece about this particular topic of of the homosexual law reform or in fact, anything politically gay overtly, Uh, and it's such an exciting thing to be asked to do on such a momentous [00:29:30] occasion. So how did you start? How did you start the process? Well, I I've written quite a lot of vocal music over the last 10 years or so, and I'm It's now my favourite thing to do because the journey is set out for you and also the structure, which is kind of the one of the most difficult things for for composers. Well, for this composer, anyway, um, and it's so exciting to be able to work with somebody else's ideas and then try and, um, add a musical dimension to it without, [00:30:00] uh, trying to upstage the words. Uh, so it's that it's that constant balance between, you know, honouring the words, Um, and in this case, they're they're astonishing words. And yet having my personality be in there. So how hard was it for you to work on something so kind of personal? Because, I mean, you you grew up through through this time and this this you Yeah, I guess. I guess my immediate reaction was that I knew that this is a celebration night, and I know the sort of songs that the this fabulous [00:30:30] choir, uh, love to do and will be doing tonight. And I thought that that my job would be to I don't know, kind of cover the darker element and the more sombre element, uh, that it just so that we don't forget how difficult things were and in fact, still are in so many countries and here as well. And it's, you know, we're not out of the fire yet. So so So why is tonight significant for you? Um well, I have lived my entire [00:31:00] adult life adult out life, Um, since that moment of homosexual law reform. So I feel very lucky. Uh, and I you know, that's that's part of my inspiration for doing it. And tonight, um, yeah, I, I just again, I feel lucky. And I know that that, um even 10 years before people 10 years younger that are older than me had a much rougher time of it. Uh, so it's It's [00:31:30] the most amazing thing to to know that we've been sort of groundbreaking in this area. This country has been groundbreaking for 30 years. OK.

IRN: 1042
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/new_zealand_parliament_acknowledges_the_orlando_mass_shooting.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004457
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089751
TITLE: New Zealand Parliament acknowledges the Orlando mass shooting
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Andrew Little; David Seymour; John Key; Kevin Hague; Peter Dunne; Te Ururoa Flavell; Winston Peters
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; ACT New Zealand; Andrew Little; Barack Obama; David Seymour; Florida; Green Party; Islam; Jeff Whittington; John Key; Kevin Hague; Member of Parliament; Muslims; National Party; New Zealand First; New Zealand Labour Party; Orlando (Florida, USA); Orlando mass killing (2016); Parliament TV; Peter Dunne; Pulse nightclub (Orlando, USA); San Bernardino mass killing (2015); Te Ururoa Flavell; United Future; United States of America; Winston Peters; bigotry; bisexual; crime; extremist; gay; hate; hate crime; homophobia; homophobic violence; immigration; intersex; intolerance; lesbian; love; murder; peace; privilege; public display of affection (PDA); respect; terrorism; transgender; transphobic violence; universal human rights; violence; vulnerability; youth
DATE: 14 June 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from a parliamentary motion put by the Prime Minister to acknowledge the mass shooting at Pulse nightclub in Orlando, Florida, USA on 13 June 2016 (NZT).
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: The right honourable prime minister. Mr. Speaker, I seek leave to move a motion without notice to express sympathy with the victims of the Orlando Shooting. Is there any objection to that course of action being followed? There is none. The right honourable Prime Minister. Mr. Speaker, I move that the House expressed sympathy with the victims of the Orlando shooting. This is a shocking atrocity. And on behalf of all New Zealanders, I'd like to express our country's sincere condolences to those uh, affected by it. As I said yesterday, no innocent person [00:00:30] should have to worry about such violence when going about their daily lives or be persecuted for their belief, uh, beliefs or because of who they are. The evening vigils that took place in Auckland, Wellington and elsewhere. We were a tangible demonstration of the depth of people's very real feelings at the scale of this atrocity. Over the days and weeks ahead, we will learn more about the motivations behind the senseless tragedy. But right now there are many people grieving the victims, families and friends in the gay and lesbian community [00:01:00] in Florida and around the world. All too often we see these hateful attacks and mass shootings. Taking the lives of innocent victims. New Zealand stands with the United States and other countries in the fight against violent extremism. Yesterday I wrote to President Obama to express condolences on behalf of all New Zealanders. Our thoughts are with the victims, their families and friends and to those who responded to this tragic attack. And we wish those injured in a speedy recovery. The [00:01:30] question is the motion be agreed to Mr Speaker, Andrew Little, Mr Speaker, the Labour Party joins with the government in expressing our horror at this atrocity and our love and sympathy are with the victims and their families. Our thoughts are with the people of Orlando and the United States as well as their representatives here in New Zealand. Mr. Speaker, this was an atrocious and hateful act. It was an act of terror. It was also an act of hate. It was a targeted attack at the LGBTI community. [00:02:00] It was the deliberate mass murder of LGBTI people because of who they were and who they loved. These young people were attacked and murdered in a place that was meant to be safe for them. There was meant to be a haven where they could go to dance and have fun and be themselves. This was a place where they wouldn't be subject to homophobia or violence or hatred. And in that place, [00:02:30] in that sanctuary, they were murdered in cold blood. Mr. Speaker, like millions of people around the world, we've all seen the heartbreaking details of what emerged about the shooting, the stories of first responders arriving at the scene to a chorus of ringing cell phones as the families of those hurt and killed desperately tried to contact their loved ones. The story of Eddie Justice, who was able to hide in the bathroom [00:03:00] of the nightclub long enough to send his mother a text telling her he loved her and whose mother then had to read the horrifying words he's coming. I'm gonna die, Mr Speaker. This attack has broken hearts around the world. But while we mourn and grieve, we must also rededicate ourselves to the great universal values of humanity which attacks like this seek to deny and destroy [00:03:30] inclusion, openness, respect, love. We must reaffirm our commitment to a society where everyone is free to love who they choose worship how they choose and to be themselves without fear of violence or repression. We must reaffirm our commitment to ending bigotry and intolerance and hatred wherever we find it, because that's what the path of true [00:04:00] freedom demands. While we grieve and we mourn, we remind ourselves that love is love and love is stronger than hate and that together we will not let hate win. Kevin Haig, Mr Speaker, I rise to support the prime minister's motion and to thank him for it. The Green Party wishes to express our profound shock and [00:04:30] sorrow at what has occurred and our sympathies to the victims themselves, to their families, to their friends and to the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex communities in Orlando and around the world. An attack against one of us is an attack against all of us. I want to name this as an act of homophobic violence for those of us who are [00:05:00] in the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex communities. We know that just below the level of taunts and name calling and subtle prejudice, there is an undercurrent of violence in this particular case in Orlando. America's absurd gun laws have been a unique enabler for the mass murder that has occurred. But New Zealand [00:05:30] has a history of homophobic violence also, sir. And one thinks, for example, of Jeff Whittington, who just over 17 years ago was murdered in this town. Mr. Speaker, it should not be that when I am my partner or any from our communities is out in public that we should have to check who is around before we kiss or hold hands. And [00:06:00] yet, sir, it is so, Mr Speaker, at this time I want to ask everyone in this house and everyone listening to this debate now to pay particular attention to the needs of young and vulnerable members of our communities. For older members of the gay community, for example, like me, we have the privilege of being able to choose whom we associate with. We have [00:06:30] the relative privilege of being able to make ourselves as safe as we can be. But a younger person does not have that privilege, sir. They are particularly vulnerable. They need our support and they need our love right now. Mr Speaker, I want to extend a hand of friendship and of love to Muslim communities around the world. Also, sir, we understand that what this man did [00:07:00] is not representative of your communities. And we seek relationships that are based on peace and mutual respect. But, Mr Mr Speaker, a belief that gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender and intersex people are not entitled to what we call universal human rights or worse, a belief that we deserve death [00:07:30] for being who we are cannot be allowed to stand in the world, sir. And in closing, sir, the Green Party. And I hope this house commit ourselves to act against homophobia and homophobic violence. And indeed, transphobic violence wherever it occurs in the world. And we seek to be a constant voice in the world [00:08:00] for the universal respect for basic human rights. Thank you, sir. Bigger. The right Honourable Winston Peters. Mr. Speaker, New Zealand first tenders, uh, tenders. Our condolences, sympathy, deep concern and regret to the people of Orlando and the USA at this latest terrorist massacre. We in New Zealand first are opposed to religious extremism in any form. And this atrocity [00:08:30] resulted from Islamic extremism by a terrorist whose family had sought shelter in the United States. There are those who will take the politically correct view and blame it all on a lack of gun control. They are wrong. They have been misled. They are seeking to divert blame from where it should lie, because this terrorist could have used any weapon of destruction. A bomb, an improvised device, [00:09:00] a method of mass poisoning and blaming lack of gun control is seen this way, in our view, simply as a cop out in the San Bernardino case last year are two extremists gave their baby to someone to look after and set out to cause a massacre, and when they were discovered or their home was discovered, improvised explosive devices were present as well. Now we have New Zealand cases as well [00:09:30] of loose border and security controls. Do people remember the hijacking of a plane out of ham by someone that a political party said should not be here? Or the fact that we couldn't find a, uh, henchman of Saddam Hussein? And when immigration did, they found a diplomat who had no connection with him at all, and when it was all over, it was found that he should not have been here in the first place, and there are countless examples now where borders control control [00:10:00] officers are making a judgement and having it overruled by others on the basis that they are safe. In short, sir, we are inviting that problem in our country by the looseness and the cavalry attitude we are taking as a country to matters of security. And you, this is not crap. It is a fact, and those who would defend what's going on here without knowing who they've brought here now they're brought here will one day be weeping crocodile tears, [00:10:30] pretending that they sought to take action with the greatest respect. One of the reasons that we are appealing in New Zealand first to the moderate Muslims is this that throughout the Western world there are extremists of every religion. We don't distinguish who they might be. But our appeal to the moderate Muslim people in this country is, and any other country is that the joint security of the country in which you exist or live [00:11:00] is dependent on us all alerting the authorities. That's the least we could expect. And and as for signing a declaration of values with the greatest respect, if you're going to only apply to refugees, and not to everyone who seeks to come here. Then you engage in a puppy whistle without any real concern. Real concern to the consequences. Lastly, there are members here who will say that they are concerned. And yet, when put [00:11:30] to the test as to the level of upgrade of our security raising the bar of bar of our finding out who is here, they have simply been found wanting. If it is crap you want to talk about, sir, that is your specialty Speaker the Honourable. Your ma [00:12:00] [00:12:30] [00:13:00] night. They work. Go. [00:13:30] No! Oh, my, [00:14:00] I on Mr Speaker. The Honourable Peter. Mr Speaker. No words, no spin, no gloss [00:14:30] can carry over the events that occurred in Orlando yesterday. The slaughter of nearly 50 innocent people is unacceptable by any moral or ethical standard. Equally unacceptable. I think, sir, is the sort of intolerance and the bigotry, because that is what it is that gets paraded at a time like this as people start to attempt to explain [00:15:00] these unacceptable actions. Mr. Speaker, I believe that bigotry begets bigotry. And that, in turn begets the type of extremism that we saw exemplified in Orlando yesterday. Mr. Speaker This is not an issue where one makes a moral judgement about anybody. The fact is that these young gay and lesbian people were out socialising, something they should have been able to do [00:15:30] in perfect freedom in perfect security and in perfect confidence, a madman. Because that is the one thing that is certain about the perpetrator. Cruelly ended that, and the questions will go on for some time as to why and how. And there will be questions about the United States attitude to the possession of handguns. There will be questions about the motivation of the individual. None [00:16:00] of those actually removed the tragedy of what happened. None of those restore any of those lives, rebuild any of those families or those friendships or rebuild those shattered communities. Mr. Speaker, we are a long way away, and I'm sure that the people of the United States are not sitting by their televisions now hanging on our every words. But our expression of sympathy and solidarity with them at this time of grief [00:16:30] counts in that it shows that as members of the world community, we actually share some basic values about integrity. We share some basic values about freedom we share share some basic values about people being able to live their lives and express their personalities to the fullest extent. Mr. Speaker, every time we see an event like this, it is a challenge to all of those values that we hold dear, even if we not may not be immediately near the scene of the crime. [00:17:00] So I share with others the sense of outrage, the expression of condolence and sympathy to the people of the United States in Orlando, in particular on this horrific occasion. But to start to go beyond that, to draw spurious conclusions at this early stage, Mr Speaker, I simply think starts to light the fuse for the next horrible outrage. And that is unacceptable. Mr. Speaker David Seymour. I would like to add, uh, the [00:17:30] act, party sympathy and condolences to those messages from other leaders who have made dignified and factual contributions to this debate. Mr. Speaker, it is a great tragedy, and our thoughts are with the victims with their families, with their communities and particularly the LGBTI communities of Orlando who appear to have been deliberately targeted and let us remain [00:18:00] strong in the knowledge that free and open societies have the resilience to sustain these tragedies, to support each other and to grow stronger again together. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The question is that the motion be agreed to those of that opinion will say I to the contrary. No, the eyes have it.

IRN: 1040
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/solidarity_with_orlando_candlelight_vigil_wellington.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004456
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089750
TITLE: Solidarity with Orlando Candlelight Vigil - Wellington
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alexandria Tasker; Bella Simpson; Celia Wade-Brown; Conrad Johnston; Elizabeth Kerekere; Grant Robertson; Hugh Young; Jan Logie; Kay Jones; Louisa Wall; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Mark Gilbert; Paul Boland; Rakesh Naidoo; Ronald Trifero Nelson; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Alexandria Tasker; Aotearoa New Zealand; Barack Obama; Bella Simpson; Celia Wade-Brown; Conrad Johnston; Elizabeth Kerekere; Florida; Frank Kitts Park; Grant Robertson; Hugh Young; Human Rights Commission; InsideOUT Kōaro; Islam; Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS); Jan Logie; Kay Jones; Louisa Wall; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Mark Gilbert; Michael Fowler Centre; Muslims; Orlando (Florida, USA); Orlando mass killing (2016); Paul Boland; Pulse nightclub (Orlando, USA); Rakesh Naidoo; Richard Tankersley; Ronald Trifero Nelson; Solidarity with Orlando Candlelight Vigil (Wellington); The Glamaphones; Tīwhanawhana; United States of America; Wellington; bars; biphobia; coming out; community; diversity; facebook. com; gay; grief; hate; hate crime; homophobia; intersex; lesbian; lighting of building exterior; love; marriage equality; mental health; nightclub; pride; queer; religion; solidarity; suicide; support; takatāpui; terrorism; tolerance; trans; transphobia; vigil; violence; whakawhanaungatanga
DATE: 13 June 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Frank Kitts Park, 29 Jervois Quay (approx), Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the Solidarity with Orlando Candlelight Vigil, held at Frank Kitts park - 6pm on 13 June 2016. The vigil was organised by InsideOUT to show solidarity for the victims of the Pulse nightclub mass shooting. A special thank you to the organisers for allowing this vigil to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I got. [00:00:30] [00:01:00] [00:01:30] [00:02:00] Yeah. [00:02:30] [00:03:00] [00:03:30] You open up a po [00:04:00] music. Thank you. Everybody who has arrived here to support this to stand in solidarity with Orlando. We acknowledge the lives that were lost, the people who were harmed, the and friends of all the people affected by what happened there, Uh, we bank inside out for the speed with which she [00:04:30] pulled this together, Giving us an opportunity to be here. And express is the paint, the grief, the anger that we see for what has occurred. It is a sad reminder of where we are. Uh, I've heard it said that this was an act of senseless violence. I would say that that is not actually true. I would say, in a world [00:05:00] we are systemic homophobia, biphobia and transphobia exists and is supported by state and religious structures. Uh, and their minds It's not senseless at all. I'm proud of all of us to be here with you. And because we stand here in our own mana. We stand here in solidarity with Orlando [00:05:30] and with each other. Uh, hi, everyone. Um, my name is Bella, and I'm the one of the co chairs for inside out. Um, first if you just want to say thank you all so much for coming. Um, you all look really beautiful. The candle lights are real nice. Um, I'm not gonna do much talking. I'm just gonna say thank you. And I'm just going to introduce the people [00:06:00] that are here because this isn't our platform is inside out. This is a community platform, and this is everyone's opportunity to take a moment and sort of say thanks and be together as a community. Um, so the first person that we're gonna ask to speak is Mayor Celia Wade Brown. So and I'd like to thank [00:06:30] inside out for bringing us together tonight for bringing together lesbian, gay, bi, trans intersex people and all of your friends in the capital from whatever country. I'd like to acknowledge the American Ambassador Mark Gilbert and the support from the US Embassy. I'd like to thank the staff that have been able to light up the Michael Fowler Centre to show [00:07:00] the world that Wellington is a beacon of love and a beacon of hope. And that symbol of the rainbow that sunshine through rain is how is so important to us. It's also about the equality and appreciation of ethnic diversity of belief. Systems [00:07:30] of the freedom to choose to express a religion or to choose not to have a religion. And that is what we stand for in Wellington. And thank all of you for being here tonight. Our thoughts go to the people of Orlando. Those who have died too early, those who are in critical care and all their friends and family and the things they never got to do. We stand [00:08:00] with Orlando. Thank you for that. Um next we'll ask Mark Gilbert, the US ambassador, to say a few words America, [00:08:30] Barack Obama, go United States Ambassador Mark Gilbert. Oh, what happened last night in Orlando should never happen [00:09:00] anywhere. We shouldn't have to gather in groups like this to pray for those who are in critical condition to mourn those who have been killed by a senseless act of violence. I know that we all pray and hope for the day [00:09:30] that we can all be treated, that men and women are all created equal, that we can pray for the day that this senseless violence stops, that we can pray for the day that we can all live in peace and harmony together. On behalf of President Obama and the people [00:10:00] of the United States, I want to thank you for being here tonight to show your solidarity with the people of Orlando from my home state of Florida and the outpouring of support that we have received from all throughout New Zealand, from our old friends and from new friends. Thank you for being here. Thank you for what you do. [00:10:30] Thank you to inside out for putting this together so quickly and thank you for standing with the United States. OK, um, we would also like to say thanks to all the MP S that have taken time out of their schedules to be here. So, um, a handful of them are gonna say a few words. So to start with, we've got Jan Logie. [00:11:00] It's hard to know what to say. Um, in the face of such horror and a sense of our family being under attack and so many lives lost and that sense of familiarity with the hatred that created this attack, I think, um, when we come together and we stand [00:11:30] in our diversity and acknowledging that the world is a better place when we're all able to stand in our difference, then we are standing up for the possibility of a better world, and we know. And sadly, the hate crime in Orlando was another reminder of how much work we have to do that [00:12:00] they are internationally. The world is in a contest to celebrate those on one side who want to celebrate difference and those who seek to repress difference. And as I'm proud to be able to stand with you in that celebration of difference killed him [00:12:30] in June, Uh, in the United States and in the Northern Hemisphere, it's Pride Month. I had the privilege to live in the US for a couple of years, and I can tell you that June is the month in the calendar. Uh, it's a month when pride parades, activities take place. It's a month where the bars are [00:13:00] fuller. It's a month where a lot of people choose the time to come out to be who they are, because there's so much joy and celebration about being who we are. And into that month of pride walked someone with so much anger and hate. My heart goes out to the [00:13:30] loved ones of everyone in Orlando who was killed or injured. My heart goes out to the futures that will never be the lives of huge potential that will not be lived. And to a community in Orlando that is grieving and to the whole of the United States, it's those people who we must think of tonight whose lives [00:14:00] will never be the same, and we have to send, and we are sending our love to all of those people. But the other thing that I want us to think about tonight is the importance of never, ever letting hate win, of making sure that we, as a community, an LGBT community and our wider, affirming supporters always stand together, always [00:14:30] stand up for love, for understanding, for acceptance and for pride and joy in who we are Tonight, we're standing for all of those values, the things that in our huge rainbow of difference draw us together time and time again that we do believe in those values. We believe in a community [00:15:00] that says you have the right to be who you are, and we will support you in that tonight in Orlando, those values have been challenged. It is our job to stand up and say once again we stand together. We stand strong as a community. Love is love. It will always conquer hate. [00:15:30] Firstly, to for, uh, opening our tonight, Uh, in a way that enables us all to come together. I'd also like to acknowledge the leadership of Inside Out and Bella, who used Facebook to communicate with a few of us to ask us to be here tonight to Mayor Celia. Thank you for your leadership, [00:16:00] Mark. It's always nice to see you. I hope you know how valued you are as part of our community being the ambassador for the US and to all of us who have come here tonight to stand in solidarity with our in Orlando. I want to To you, to our members of our LGBTI community. But our broader community, I think I'm incredibly proud, uh, to be, uh, one of [00:16:30] our out and proud MP S in Parliament and an opportunity for us to come together, uh, to show how much love we had. I want to thank Grant for the words that he used, because it's at time, like times like this. Uh, we can be divided. Uh, but I think this is when we have to pull together and to, uh, members of our Muslim community here in a So I particularly want to acknowledge our Muslim community [00:17:00] in a because the Islamic state does not exist here. The Muslims who live in our country are Muslims who, like us, have LGBTI members of their, and they love them as much as we love ourselves and each other. So the tolerance that we must, uh, display isn't about being tolerant of Muslims here in a because the Islamic state does not exist. But what we have to do, as Elizabeth highlighted, [00:17:30] is that is be ever vigilant of of Islamic state, uh, ideologies that say women are less and that our community is less. And so the challenge for us is to continue the fight to be free and equal and dignity and rights. And so what we've done by coming together is to show the strength of our community, but also the ability of our community to be clear about who the enemy is. [00:18:00] And it's not our Muslim brothers and sisters here in Aotearoa. So I've chosen to focus on that Because, um I hope that we will show, as we have done, uh, with a lot of human rights advancements here in New Zealand that by talking together, uh, through, uh, through our ability to come together. Actually, we can overcome a lot of hatred, a lot of prejudice and actually show the way forward it is about [00:18:30] moving beyond tolerance. Actually, it's about having an appreciation and a love for the diversity that is a New Zealand. New Zealand today. Um, so I'm I'm happy to be here. Uh, with all of you, uh, showing our solidarity. No. Um, so that was timed. Really? Well, because [00:19:00] internationally, at 6. 30 there is a minute of silence, and we thought that we would do that as well. So if everyone would like to just take a moment? Um, yeah, [00:19:30] OK, so the next person that was gonna speak on behalf of the Human Rights Commission um was Rakesh [00:20:00] I bring with me condolences on behalf of the Human Rights Commission as well as the leadership of the New Zealand Muslim communities. I have a statement that has been prepared by Richard Tankersley, a commissioner at the Human Rights Commission. [00:20:30] as well as a the president of the Federation of Islamic Associations of New Zealand, New Zealand's Muslim leadership and communities and the New Zealand Human Rights Commission condemned the violent shooting tragedy in Orlando, Florida We are outraged and shocked at this despicable crime and our thoughts are with the victims of this cowardly attack. We stand alongside all victims and we stand against this appalling [00:21:00] violence which must never have any place in our civilised democratic societies. Our response to hatred is humanity. We stand together in solidarity against hate, all forms of homophobia, violence and intolerance. New Zealand Muslims and the New Zealand Human Rights Commission urges all Kiwis to stand together against this hatred. [00:21:30] Next up we've got Rebecca, who's gonna say a prayer for us. Um if you pray, then please join me. Create a god giver of life. Mother and father of us all comfort those who mourn This day. We pray for the Latin community in Orlando and all the people of colour in our [00:22:00] society and in America who are oppressed and marginalised, God of the oppressed. Hear our prayer. We pray for our LGBT Q siblings and here who are persecuted and vulnerable even in places we consider to be safe. God of refuge. Hear our prayer. We pray for the Muslims in America and in our society that they be protected from the senseless [00:22:30] reactions of the intolerant god of shelter. Hear our prayer. We pray for the church that we may acknowledge our sins of silence and of hate and for the strength to fight for the oppressed God of justice. Hear our prayer. We remember all those who have died, especially all the victims of the pulse nightclub shooting. All of whose names are known to you, God [00:23:00] of hope. We thank you that not even death can separate us from your life. We pray for the survivors for victims, friends and families and all who mourn that they may feel your comfort for them. God of love. Hear our prayer, Lord, have mercy. Christ have mercy. Lord, have mercy. Amen. [00:23:30] Next up, we've got Daisy who's prepared a speech. I woke up this morning to find that 50 of my family were killed and 53 others were hurt. I had spent most of the day in tears and shock before finding out about this event and decided that I need to take some action. I think we can all agree how close to home this hit us. Most of us, I'm sure, would have been to a gay bar [00:24:00] at some point. Sometimes you just pop in on the way home. Sometimes you go out with the purpose of trying to meet someone. But most importantly, you go out to have a good time. You go to a space where you know you will be safe and you will be respected. I cannot even imagine going out with these intentions to a safe place to not return home at all. My last partner and I met in a gay bar. We fell in love and we spent a wonderful year together. I can't help but think how many potential [00:24:30] lovers may have met that night only to not have been given that opportunity. But as a community, we owe it to those individuals to continue to be true to ourselves, continue to spread nothing but love and continue to make our community proud. We must pay respect to the lives lost. But we must also rise above the hate. And at the end of the day, love is the foundation of this community. It is the most powerful force and it will always prevail, [00:25:00] educate, continue to be loving and continue to be yourselves. Do not succumb to the fear that this event was intended to provoke. We're stronger than that. This is another obstacle. Our community has been thrown, but we will jump over it with more drive and more power. Do not let this dampen your spirits instead. And excuse me for the cliche. Continue to let it ignite the beautiful flame that is the gay community [00:25:30] to the gunman. I'm sorry your life was so short and filled with ignorance and hate. That's no way to live to his family. I'm sorry. You'll now have to bear the weight of his actions on your shoulders. I can't imagine how much how many death threats and hate you'll be getting and most importantly to all the family, friends and anyone affected by this event. I am sorry. I am. I'm so sorry for your losses. You will continue to have the support from the worldwide family [00:26:00] of the gay community and its allies. You are not alone. Stay strong and continue shining bright like the diamonds you are Thank you and rest in peace. The next person who's on my list, but it's got a T BC Next to it was Marie. Were you still wanting to speak fantastic? Everyone [00:26:30] wanting to speak? I don't think that's the right word. Like many of you, I heard this story on the Internet. America is a place I've gone a lot. I've been a member of this community for over 50 years. That's not why I am here tonight. [00:27:00] I'm a counsellor, and what I want to remind everyone tonight is the importance of community, remembering the extraordinary person that you are and doing what some of you have done tonight, which is reach out and talk and remind each other how precious and important we are. [00:27:30] There's been a lot of talking tonight about being a counter to hatred and sadly, tonight reminds us big picture what our community is about. So please look after yourselves. Talk, cry, laugh And above all, remember what an extraordinary community we are. [00:28:00] It's a community that has its own problems, and often we focus sideways. But a day like the last 24 hours reminds us of what is important. Thank you, Mayor Celia Wade Brown and the other speakers. But I want to acknowledge the fact that our town hall is a rainbow tonight and the extraordinary things that do [00:28:30] go on into a hold on to that. Thank you, Tabby, for asking me to speak. Just look after yourself and be gentle, all of you. Now, we'll have the mic open for a little bit. So if anyone has anything that they'd like to say now is your opportunity. Um, my name is Hugo. [00:29:00] And, um, I remember when I was at high school that I was incredibly blown away with how homophobic an environment it was and how incredibly, uh, proud and moved. I was to see, um, a transition in recent years or what I've perceived to be a transition and to to see such a a sort of a parallel shift between what I've experienced in in this society in this nation. [00:29:30] And this horrific event, um, has has has inspired this, um, this poem that I want to perform for you. And, uh, I want to credit my friend, um, Lily, for, um, having the courage to to write a poem before me to, um to represent her feelings on this event, because otherwise I don't think I would have had the, uh, the the the courage to to do so. So, um, thank you to her. Also, um, [00:30:00] outpouring of love and blood soaked alchemy. Call to prayer call to poetry. Blood soaked fists and faces and ink soaked letters already submitted to by the dead attendants and the freedom. One was threatened with hatred and steal as wounds were plugged with silks in the dark ordeal. Hatred reduced that human soup to faggots and squeezed [00:30:30] it trigger firing metal jackets whose tips cut flesh and splattered faces with crimson. They could not stand against his fractured reason, but simply ran in chaos to place of safety as the gunman turned his hateful weapon, strafing and bearing black flag with his words professed riddling rainbow banners with hateful zest sanctified by false god of hate, who blessed his hatred [00:31:00] and made it purer than victim's blood. Outpouring of love purchased at terrible cost. 50 dead whose 50 lights were lost when concentration camps were freed. The gays were left to serve their time. Their savior's mercy did not extend to them like other souls they did defend. And so they were twice victimised once by the enemy and once by familiar eyes and in times to come. Their [00:31:30] love remained illegal, but they bore it strong and proud, like a legion's eagle. And then when in several states and several nations the freedom to affirm their love was granted an injustice of the past. At last supplanted came a man who stood feet firmly planted and vanquished their security with steel. Thank you. Um, [00:32:00] um, yeah, I just kind of wanted to thank everyone for being here tonight. I was, uh I couldn't sleep last night. I turned on the clock radio to try and get me to go to sleep because I thought, Oh, you know, national radio. That'll do it. No, not so much. Um oh, look at me. Making [00:32:30] jokes to cover up the grief. Yep. Um, when I was walking down here, uh, I just had this real sense of grief and also gratitude that here we are all again having a candlelight vigil. Um, yeah. Uh, and it kind of helps me make sense of some of the things in my life that I've struggled with um I've had mental [00:33:00] health issues. Uh, I currently take quite a lot of antidepressants in the morning. Um, I've had a number of my friends commit suicide, and then I kind of remember, right, there are people in the world who want to kill me dead, and that's pretty stressful to live with. Yeah, just a little bit. And, um, you all are. You know, all all I have, um, you know, I try and talk [00:33:30] to my straight friends. Although there's probably lots of straight allies here. Yeah, and they're kind of like, Oh, you know, it's not that bad. It's like marriage equality. And I'm like, Yeah, a awesome um Although I know that, um, is standing behind me anyway. Um, a I'm gonna shut up now. Thanks. Thanks, everyone, [00:34:00] Uh, my country, tis of thee sweet land of liberty never felt so wrong. Um, I walked around work feeling very alone today, so thank you [00:34:30] for not making me feel alone anymore. I had to watch my friends in Florida's news feed today as they reached out to our brothers and sisters in the queer community and ask them to tell to call their parents. Um so they wouldn't worry. Um, so this feels like a big [00:35:00] hug. So thank you. Just to reiterate, as a fellow American who's been back and forth from here in California and being queer, I thank you and my brothers and sisters in America, Thank you for this kind of support. Sometimes we don't think that this is enough, but when we see this globally, it means a great deal to those in the States and those who are struggling constantly. I think also those who get [00:35:30] to see this in countries where there is no freedom. But they see this kind of gathering. It gives them hope. So I thank you for that. I want to thank you for being here, because it's that sharing of community that makes tragedies like this so much easier to bear. Last night, my partner said, There's something really bad happening in Orlando, and I went to social media and they're on the Facebook [00:36:00] page for the nightclub. There were people sharing from within the club, how they were trapped and trying to get out. There were parents. They're worried about their Children who were in the club. There were people saying, My daughter's in there. What's happening to her? And 25 minutes later, she's out. She's safe. And all around the world, there were people starting to comment. There were people from New Zealand, Australia, Germany, the UK. There was actually a global outreach [00:36:30] of people expressing their concern and love and wanting this not to be the tragedy that it obviously now is. But that's the thing that it's it's tough as it is. It's easier for us to cope when we're together like this. So thank you all, especially inside out for organising this and all the speakers, because trying to cope with this by ourselves individually is just so hard. And here in New Zealand, we do have that community to help [00:37:00] us. So I think of the people who are alone and trying to cope with such hatred in their homeland. And I thank you for the support. Uh, hello, everybody. My name is Alexandria Tasca. I run the Queer Network New Zealand Facebook Page as well as the Trans Network Facebook page as well. Um, I would just like to say a big thanks to everybody on social media who helped [00:37:30] put this together and it was actually a great honour to actually be able to spread this event to all those who are actually following my pages. I would just like to do a Buddhist chant for all those who have passed away. Number your ring. Take oh, numb your [00:38:00] ring. Take your ring. Oh, thank you, everyone. My name is Joe. Um, first of all, I just want to say like a massive thank you for all being here. I am so privileged that we live in a country where we are so widely accepted for our differences. But then there's countries that are not and seeing [00:38:30] today, like on the news feeds on news itself is absolutely heartbreaking to know that there's people that aren't being accepted, that there's people being suppressed for who they are. And it's it's hard, um, my thoughts and my heart and my tears that they went out to the people of Florida of Orlando of anyone that's connected to them. For all the talent, the lies and the souls that are lost, words can't even describe how much [00:39:00] it hurts, how big of a hit it is to the community. But like we said, it's so much easier knowing that we can gather that we can support each other through, like, situations like this that we are. We are one as a community. We stand and we can stand strong in who we are. And that is what makes us special. Thank you. Um, hi, everyone. I, uh I I got back from the the States about [00:39:30] two weeks ago now, um, and had my travel plans not gone differently, I would be in Florida right now, which was quite terrifying this morning. Um, but I wanted to tell you all a story in three parts and non lineally. Um, because that's always fun. Um, so this morning, uh, like many of us, I woke up to a multitude of news alerts telling me that something had happened. I looked [00:40:00] to my friends who were in Florida who were travelling who were not immediately accessible to me. Like many of us, I was worried. Like many of us, I spent all day stressed and anxious, and I wanted to tell you all about someone who I met while I was in the States. His name was Arthur Coley, and he was a founding member of one of the gay Mardi Gras [00:40:30] crews, one of the the actually, now the largest gay Mardi Gras crew. And he was. He told me a story when I was speaking to him about the yoga crew. The first ball, the first gay Mardi Gras ball that ever happened, was the yoga crew, and it was raided by police because this was 50 years ago, when being gay was still illegal. And during this raid, people were arrested. [00:41:00] Some people escaped. The queen of the ball, who was dressed in drag and in Rhin stones, was hiding in a bush as the police came through with search lights, and as the search lights hit her, she lit up like a Christmas tree and said, apparently, Well, take mama home then. And I'm telling you this because I want to emphasise the importance that gay bars have in [00:41:30] our community not just now, but historically because when the news of this happened, Miss Dixie of Miss Dixie's Bar, which was the gay bar of New Orleans at the time, opened up the safe behind the bar, took out all the money, handed it to her bartender and told him, Bail everyone out. No one from that raid stayed in jail. Their names were released because it was a crime at the time. [00:42:00] They suffered in the jobs in a way that we hope that we don't have to anymore. But no one stayed in jail because pinnacles of the community like these bars exist. So this morning, with anxious hearts, I remembered this story because we can be strong when we're together. That's that's how our community gains strength. So that's how our community survived. [00:42:30] Arthur again told me that he didn't think, and his friends didn't think they were doing anything special. They just thought that they were having fun and I. I hope that as we continue to change things that we don't think we're doing anything special either. I hope that everything we do seems natural and normal. And I hope that now, as we're standing here with wax burns on our fingers, that we can all continue to be not very special [00:43:00] right now, but really special in 50 years. Thank you. Good evening, Rainbow. I'm privileged to be here from Australia and I just wanted to let you know that in Australia the candlelight vigil will be happening at the same time. Only two hours. Three hours, four hours later that we in Australia are with [00:43:30] our Kiwi brothers and sisters. During this terrible time of this Orlando massacre, it will go down in history. As much as the Stonewall revolution happened a little over 30 years ago at this time, and I think it will give us enormous strength to always pull together and be proud of who we are and what we can do [00:44:00] with this terrible massacre just reminds us that there is still more. There are still more places to go and more work to do. So I'm privileged to be here with all my tonight. Um um my name is Kate. Um oh. Sorry. It's been a very long day. Um, I just wanted to say that, um, we're all here together and that [00:44:30] this day has been very disheartening. And all day I've been sitting in class trying not to cry or vomit or just just lose it, because I'm angry and I'm sad and I'm scared. And, um, as a young queer person, it it's it's hard because I think Is this my future? Is this my life? Is this what it's going to be, um, and I struggle a lot with hope, but [00:45:00] I wanted to say that, um, seeing everyone here with your candles and everyone here together, um, is really helping me hold on to that, um, and is very meaningful. And, um, thank you, everyone. It was Latino and Latina night at the Pulse. This is about 20. So are the names of the people who died there. Excuse my Spanish. [00:45:30] Edward Sotomayor Junior, 34. Stanley Avar, The 3rd, 23. Luis Omar Ocasio Capo, 20 Juan Ramo Guero, 22. Eric Ivan Ortiz Rivera, 36. Peter O, Gonzalez [00:46:00] Cruz, 22. Louise, 22. Kimberly Morris, 37. Eddie Genaro, Justice 30. Darrell Ramone, Burt The 2nd, 29. Dona Dryden, 32. Alejandro Martinez, 21. [00:46:30] Anthony Luis Laia, 25. Jean Carlos Mendez Perez, 35 and Frankie Jimmy de Jesus Vallas, 50. That's probably only half of the people who died. [00:47:00] Someone spoke as a very young person. I could be the oldest person here in advance on 72. Wow. Well, then, uh, and somebody else spoke about the next 50 years. I can tell you about the last 50 years. I can tell you a little about the last 65 years. It was worse. It was very bad. So [00:47:30] for young people, it gets better. And it has. It has got very much better, and it can get even better. The rest of the world can have what we have. And I'm sure there are still issues we need sorting out yet. Adoption. I don't know. You fellas sort that sort that out. Um my husband [00:48:00] brought to my attention what someone at Orlando said from the from the event from the tragedy the disaster, we will dance again. Please remove that. We will dance again and we will keep dancing. And we will never stop dancing that down journal. Hi, My name is Ella and I. I can personally [00:48:30] say that I'm terrified to be up here right now, but I know that everyone here is going to be so proud of everyone that has spoken and just express their own opinions today. Honestly, I was also terrified before I came here because I thought that I was going to be one of the couple of people that actually showed up. But I am so, so thankful to all of you for just showing up and showing your support for everyone here. [00:49:00] And I know that I am so lucky as a young queer person to have all of you here today. I'm sorry if there's a see coming up, but, um, I just know that some of you may have loved ones that you have lost today. I am not sure, but I do know that we have all lost a big deal today because of this hate crime. I was talking [00:49:30] to my friend today and she said she was scared because she didn't know how there could be ever so much hate in this world. And I'm not sure if I'm making any sense at all. My mind is blank. But I told her to not be scared, that we have such a large community of people who are here to help and that she should feel safe in her own body. And that was also the day that she came out to her parents. And [00:50:00] I was so proud of her for just everything that she had done and how safe that she felt and how I got to hold her in my arms as she was crying and thanking me. And I would just like to say thank you to all of you if you have ever helped someone come out or if you ever supported someone who has come out and again, I'm not sure if any of this makes sense to you. But thank you. [00:50:30] I Many of the first speakers spoke about how we would reject any retaliation against Muslim communities, and I just wanted to say I am one of the LGBT members of the Muslim community. And usually, after an event like this, I would be afraid for other people that are like me in that sense that they are Muslims. But today it was different [00:51:00] because I think the world is tired of that narrative. When you look at the social media, all you see are the people rejecting the narrative of blaming Muslims, and I do not. I don't know how to speak for how Muslims in America feel right now, but for Muslims in New Zealand, I don't feel fear today, but yeah, so while we the sorry, [00:51:30] I also wanted to tell my story of how I found out about this event because it is different to how other people have said it today. I did not find out when I woke up this morning because last night I could not sleep because I was. My mind was racing. I could not shut down because I was terrified. My mind would not stop giving me images of my [00:52:00] transgender girlfriend being attacked. My mind would stop, Stop, not stop giving me images of how I would would not be able to protect her. And while we have come together today to still fear, we have come together to show each other that we are not alone. But it is not just these communities. There are the people that did not [00:52:30] come to the events. There are the people that will not even mention it. There are the people that you don't know are struggling, because when I spoke to her this morning, her response was that she was afraid. Still, she feared even in New Zealand to even leave the house again. She didn't want to leave the house. She was so afraid because even in these loving communities in Wellington, people in the LGBT community we live [00:53:00] in the perpetual fear that is created all around the world because today's event was an act of terrorism. And while we mourn the victims in Orlando, we must also remember the other victims of the terrorism aspect. And they are not the people that you would expect. There are the people that won't even mention it. So please, while you have come together today to to show each other that [00:53:30] you are not alone, I ask, Please reach out to the people who you don't think are struggling. Just reach out, remind them of your friendship. Remind them of your acceptance because it is not a one day event. It is our lives, and the fear needs to be needs to be conquered every day. The courage to find, to find the courage to leave the house to go and [00:54:00] continue dancing. It needs to be found every day, and we need our communities every day. So please reach out to the people who didn't come to the people who you don't think it that way, they will find it important to come. Just keep reaching out every day. Thank you for the dignity [00:54:30] and respect of our dear brothers and sisters that have passed and gone to the light from this very, very sad, very, very sad situation in the nightclub in the evening. I honour your souls. I pray that you go to the light and to respect [00:55:00] and pride of our gay community throughout the world. I think sincerely of each one of you that has passed into the next dimension. Proud Americans, land of the free and the home of the brave. This is for you. Find the door [00:55:30] right. What? So Yeah, our lights lost tribes and bright stars. He wants me so and, oh, [00:56:00] the bombs burn. I gave right? Yes. Yeah, Yeah. [00:56:30] Was there anyone else that wanted to say anything? OK, so, um I just say, a handful of thank you. So thank you everyone for coming today. Thank you for finding the bravery within and [00:57:00] the courage to come. Um, and the warmth, because it's a bit nippy. And thank you to those the MP S and Mark Gilbert who have taken time out of their schedules to be here. Um, so I'm gonna pass it over to now. Who will close this for us? Thank you. Because we are the amazing, creative, multifaceted people that we are. We can hold our grief [00:57:30] with our anger with our love, uh, with our hope and our expectation that things are gonna change dramatically over the course of each of our lifetimes. Uh, our finishing is which means that we will all stand together as one as we search for enlightenment. Uh, for knowledge, uh, we do so with love. We stand together as one. [00:58:00] We I out here. [00:58:30] Yeah. Is yeah [00:59:00] away? Mhm.

IRN: 1058
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089749
TITLE: Chris Gendall profile
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VOICES: Chris Gendall
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 14 Stations (composition); 2010s; After Lilburn (2013); Alley (opera); Aotearoa New Zealand; Benjamin Britten; Canzona (CANZ); Carmen Rupe; Chris Gendall; Claire Cowan; Composers Association of New Zealand (CANZ); Dan Poynton; David Hamilton; Death in Venice (opera); Douglas Lilburn; Dunedin; Gary Wilby; Hamilton; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Jack Body; John Cage; Karlheinz Stockhausen; Korea; Love Sonnets of Michelangelo (composition); Ludwig van Beethoven; Maurice Ravel; Mozart Fellowship (University of Otago); Māori; New York City; Pansori; Peter Grimes (opera); Pyotr Tchaikovsky; Rewi Alley; Robert Burns Fellowship (University of Otago); Samuel Barber; Samuel Holloway; Sings Harry; Songs of Dances and Desire: In Memoriam Carmen Rupe; Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington; The Return (composition); United States of America; University of Otago; Wellington; Witold Lutoslawski; aggression; closeted; community; composition; creativity; family; gay; homoerotic; homosexual law reform; honesty; humour; latent aggression; masculinity; moteatea; music; obsession; relationships; ritual; sexuality; waiata
DATE: 11 June 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Chris Gendall talks about life as a composer and also pays tribute to Jack Body.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm a, um, a composer. And I've I live right now between Wellington and Dunedin, mostly Dunedin this year. Um, but, um, but I'm I consider myself basically a Wellington, and I've been here since, uh, just before high school. And before that, I grew up in in Hamilton and then moved down when I was about 10 or 11. And, um yeah, then went to to high school in Wellington, Did undergraduate [00:00:30] and, um, a little bit of postgraduate, um, at Victoria University in Wellington. And then, uh, I lived overseas. I lived in the states, uh, upstate New York at a little town called Ithaca. Um, where I also did some study in in New York City after that before coming back to New Zealand. About what, five or six years ago? Now. And the reason you are commuting between Wellington and Dunedin is because [00:01:00] you are the current Mozart fellow. That's right. Yeah, Mozart Fellowship is the, um, the composition or the music fellowship that's run by the University of Otago. So there's a, um, a writer one called the Fellowship. There's an visual arts one called the Francis Hodgkins Fellowship and a couple of other um different ones that are run out of, um, different departments. But, uh, the music one is the Mozart Fellowship. So how did you get into composing? I played [00:01:30] a piano when I was a kid. Um, quite poorly. And I was a really terrible piano student, because I, um I didn't really like practising that much. And and I was, um I was always quite good at sight reading. So I I would sight read my lessons. It was terrible. I had never really practised anything. I was dreadful. But, um, I at high school, I got into composition, had a really good sort of, um, composition, itinerant [00:02:00] teacher named Gary Wilby who used to come into our high school. And he introduced me to some things that I really fell in love with things like music by people like Stockhausen, um, and and other contemporary composers. And, um and I Really I found that fascinating. And, um, those sorts of moments that broaden your horizons that blow blow your mind that they're really interesting. So [00:02:30] I got into composing then, and I've been doing it ever since. So I would have been about 16 when I started, and it's almost 20 years ago. So what was it about contemporary composition that that really kind of fired you up? What can you describe? What were the things? That kind of I, I think the the main thing is that it was a feeling that anything could happen and that, um, and that anything was possible. And, um and that's that's not something that you always, [00:03:00] um, experience especially. You know, when you're a student, you don't have the kind of ability that professionals have. And so you don't always feel that that you're in control of, of the sounds you want to make if you're a performer, Um, or if you're just sort of learning about things but just hearing a universe that that can imagine any kind of combination of sounds and make it logical and and to some degree beautiful [00:03:30] I found that really, really special and quite poignant. And that's really interesting, because when you think about things like, say, Beethoven, which is very kind of stable, and, you know, you have a sense that this is this is how it goes. It's interesting that you're kind of going for quite the opposite, where actually, anything can Yeah, And in some ways, um, with things like repertoire Beethoven, I've kind of come back to them. But with this idea that historically what [00:04:00] they were doing was also, you know, really broadening horizons and really blowing people's minds. Um, in today's context, it seems much more traditional, much more conventional. But But, uh, in their own contexts, it was, uh it was, um, quite experimental. I guess you could say they're really pushing the bound the boundaries as well. But, um, that's just something I think that was really attractive to to the teenage man and actually remains [00:04:30] very attractive. I think it's I still find things in other people's music and and hopefully in my own music as well. There are little discoveries that, uh, that broaden the the possibilities, the realm of possibilities. And and I'm always I'm always looking for that. I think so. How do you react to listening to your own work? Um, it's interesting because it's because you know it so [00:05:00] well. It's existed in your imagination for so long when you when you do finally hear a performance that, uh, that that when you are hearing it, it's, um it can be almost surreal. And sometimes it's almost that you you have to force yourself into a situation where you listen almost objectively as if you're listening to someone else's work. Otherwise, you're not gonna be able to, um, be professional, [00:05:30] have have a have a sense of what what needs to happen with it. Um, So, um, usually I can It can be really overwhelming. Uh, and sometimes it's terrifying, especially first rehearsals, because, you know, I, I write tricky stuff and and it takes a little while to get together. And sometimes if you are at the first rehearsal, it can be a bit heartbreaking. But, um, in the right circumstances II I sometimes [00:06:00] moved in unusual ways, and I think the the the way that other people would listen to it would be quite different. I think that that what I what I hear and it it maybe that that has sort of different features or different. Um uh, I don't know, salient points of interest for me than others, and it must be really useful in the rehearsal process to actually have the composer there so that you can actually discuss with the musicians. What? What? [00:06:30] You're intending and and they can II, I think I think yes and no. I think I think sometimes the composer can get in the way. But there's there's different. There's the um with the rehearsals of any sort. There's there's those little magic moments where it's all kind of working and and the entire mechanism is working as it should. And and, um and sometimes the exactly as you said the composer can really offer insight into into into [00:07:00] how it goes. But sometimes it's just impractical. But it's it's great to be there for rehearsals. It's great to when it's going well, It's so it's the most fun that music can never be. Rehearsals more than performances, actually, when when? When It's when it's going well and everyone's engaged, it's It's pretty amazing music making. So what you imagine, um, to begin with, does that translate easily onto the [00:07:30] page? Do you? Do you find that what actually ends up in the in the rest of us hearing? Is it the same as what you hear? Yes. Yes, I'd say I'd say, um, most of the time, Um, I'm quite a slow composer. I'm quite detail oriented. And so I think very, very hard about, um, about every detail and and every every note and every rhythm and it, um, and [00:08:00] I know that most composers I I feel like most composers do think quite hard about it as well. I just think it's it's just something that that I really, um, that I really sink my teeth into And because of that, it's, uh it's so um I guess well worked out in my head that that when it is on the page, it's it is It's just [00:08:30] so there's obviously room for interpretation in certain regards, but But basically I think what what I'm going for comes out 95% of the time here. And another interesting thing, I guess, is that you're working in such detail and spending a lot of time over it. But for an audience, they're hearing it in real time. So the the I suppose that time span is quite different, isn't it? [00:09:00] Yeah, there's a There's a, um, a lovely tension, and actually, it's something that that I think composers will exploit, or they will explore, I guess, is, um is the amount of mystery that that, um, that music has. It's It's not something that's that's immediate. It's not something that's transparent. It's It's something where you can, uh, create kind of clouds and and and, [00:09:30] um, in a sort of hazy quality, no matter what the expression is. And that's something that composers have always used. You know. That's why Bach is so contrapuntal toys with the mechanism of how people hear things and and that's and that's a really beautiful thing. In fact, for me, transparency and clarity are less desirable [00:10:00] than kind of mystery. And that sort of, um, cloudy aspect. Yeah. So are you writing for an audience? Are you writing for yourself? Who are you writing for? Yes, Yes. To both, I think. Yeah. So I I'd like to think of myself as an audience member and and, uh, and I. I always like to say that I write for the listener, and then it can be said that it's whoever [00:10:30] cares, cares to listen to it. Um, but But I think that, you know, audiences are smart, and they have they have an appetite for things that are, um, that are slightly out outside of the box, and that that's what I do or what I try and do. And, um, well, not everyone's going to be engaged by that immediately. I. I think that there's possibility for for any [00:11:00] audience member to to find something there and, like you were saying earlier that in his time Beethoven was kind of out of the box and now is seen as quite standard. So it's interesting, isn't it? How how kind of you know, fashions and, um, what people consider to be mainstream changes. Yeah, of course, of course. And you know the people that in in all realms of of music, I think there are people who are trying to push the boundaries. Uh, it's [00:11:30] just with what I do. It's probably the the boundary pushing aspects of it are probably the most, um, salient aspect to an audience. That's that's probably what what strikes them straight away rather than, um rather than for, you know, pop music or something like that, where where there might be people who are trying to explore different things, it's just the aspects are the more, um, immediate and and, um, [00:12:00] kind of easily recognisable. So if I said to you name one emotion that you were what was the main emotion in your music? What would what would that kind of emotion be? I'd like to think that there are quite a few, but, um, for me, I like the idea of, um of aggression or latent aggression. And that sounds, um, it's It's not necessarily that all all of my music is violent, but it I think there's [00:12:30] a, um, an aggressive quality that that I think comes out of a few different places. Um, I often think about the way that, um, and Maori culture the way that you greet a group of visitors or the way that people come together. Um, the the the kind of ceremony and the kind of ritual has elements of aggression in it. But it's [00:13:00] not in order to frighten people. It's in order to welcome them, you know, and there, and there are obviously traditional reasons for that. But there's a sort of beauty in that, and I think a quality that that I that I'm attracted to It happens in other cultures as well. There's, um, there's a Korean music theatre, a style called and there's a real sort of a defiant kind of aggression. [00:13:30] Um and the old Maori songs have this as well. So, um I, I think that kind of quality is, um is quite special to me. My music doesn't sound like these these things, really, But it's, um but it's that sort of emotional quality that that I am quite attracted to this year is the 30th anniversary of homosexual law reform. And so I thought, I'll bring the two strands together. How do [00:14:00] you think sexuality and music composition into weave, or do they or don't they? How how is it for you? It's really hard to say, actually, because I think, um, it it's pretty different depending on where you are in history. In my lifetime, it's gone from being illegal to be gay to being basically pretty widely accepted. Um, and and so I think [00:14:30] that some of the kind of real world challenges that older gay composers had, uh, it just never gonna be the reality for me or for, um, gay composers around my age. So you know what links me and nothing, really. You know, in in terms of in terms of that, um so I. I wonder, um, how much? Obviously it's It's a part of my life [00:15:00] to be gay and, um and it's, you know, a big part of my universe. But I don't know if if it translates to, you know, the notes on the page are there are gay chords or my music or anything like that. But, um, the yeah, I think looking at at other composers throughout history, So you know, whether they're in New Zealand, people like Jack Body, um, even Douglas lorn [00:15:30] the impact that it had would be really different for them because it was a different time. It was. And there they were, much, much bigger challenges. You know, Douglas, I think was basically closeted, you can say, and so that's definitely going to have an impact on the way he works. Um, the same with, you know, older composers, uh, sort of in the 19th century, people like Tchaikovsky. Um, whereas somebody like John Cage, [00:16:00] it was probably an asset, you know, he was able to communicate with both his his partner, Miss Miss Cunningham, and and other people in the gay community. And so it's really hard to say exactly what kind of impact it would have. Um, on me. I don't know if it if if If there's a kind of, um if there's something in my music that that reflects it or not, I think only other people could really say, [00:16:30] Has it been an area that you've wanted to kind of explore in terms of? Uh, I'm not really sure, I guess if I was looking at sort of extra musical subjects, um then there might be things that that could come up I? I don't know. Um, probably the closest thing, Uh, these days I'm sort of looking at it. Um, [00:17:00] it sounds from my everyday life and and, um, creating transcriptions of, like, little kind of sound samples with there'd be, like a a bird call or something really simple, Like the pattern of speech or, um, or kind of water dripping into a class or something like that, Um, and transcribing them and and, um, them orchestrating them in in different circumstances. And, uh, the last piece I finished [00:17:30] had a, um I used a little kind of clip of of, um, an obscure disco song and that it doesn't You can't hear it in the piece. It's not. There's no kind of sonic line drawn between that and and the result, but I guess because it's in the background, maybe there's some some aspect of this that that that kind of in existence is [00:18:00] an element of gay culture at least, um, albeit from a different time and a time before I was born. So that's that's another another thing. But yeah, something, just something that I find that I'm fond of and that I find interesting. Maybe it's a kind of a a wider than, uh, composition question, I guess. In terms of as A as a younger gay man, do you feel that you need to be out there as a gay person [00:18:30] or it's just part of your life? I feel like I need to be, um, be honest, upfront and natural about about being a gay person, that it is a part of my life. I don't feel any need to behave in any way other than than what I feel comes natural. And, um, and I feel really lucky that I can live in a time when I can do that, that I [00:19:00] can just be myself. I can be gay, I can have a boyfriend and and we can walk around town like normal people and have Christmas with with my family and go to my nieces and nephews birthday parties and and that it's all totally fine. Maybe it's not totally fine to everyone, but they don't say so, and it's and it's it's [00:19:30] no trouble for them. It's no skin off their nose. So So I feel really kind of fortunate in that regard, Um, and that I don't have to hide anything about myself or eat in any particular way. It's really is, um, an asset you mentioned earlier, um, about check body, or you just, um, um named Jack. Jack, Um, you had quite a close friendship with Jack, and I'm just wondering, um, he passed a year [00:20:00] ago, just over a year ago. Um, what was Jack like? Jack was, um, was a kind of amazing guy. He, uh, was magnanimous as as a as a personality and and and as a as a human being. He was, um, very personable and very familiar. Uh, both he and his partner, they were always very welcoming. And, [00:20:30] um, and a great musical mind as well. And, um, somebody who really did like to engage with uh, with other musicians that he that he, um, that he saw talent in or that he that he, um whose music he he found interesting. So I was was really lucky to be part of Jack's circle, um, both in New Zealand and overseas. When you go overseas and you're from New Zealand and you're involved in contemporary music, they'll always ask [00:21:00] you if you know Jack, he's the one that everyone knows. So he's the which is a reflection on on his personality, but also on his kind of generosity of spirit. Um, he was It was also could be, you know, tricky. Sometimes he, um he had lots of ideas, and he was he wanted to do a lot of things. And you, you you often had a job to do. So that was that was something that, and including after his passing, he I I still had work to do for him, which [00:21:30] was which was interesting, but that just that's part of being a friend to Jack. But he he really did like the idea of, um, family and and I use it both in the kind of the the sense of gay parents, but but also just the idea of having people around him and close to him that, uh, that he that he he [00:22:00] could provide kind of support to in in this way. And, um, yeah, so it was It was almost from the get go, a much closer relationship than you'd expect. It was much more, um, intimate and much more interested in in in your life in general than, um then then you would expect from a competition teacher. So, um, [00:22:30] but he was really kind and very, uh, generous, Especially professionally. He really provided a lot of opportunity to me and to other people, Um, in my situation as well. Um, and I, I really think I I wouldn't be a composer if it wasn't for Jack. He was He was. But the reason that I wanted to study, um, at a at a high level, and he was, and he provided [00:23:00] the kind of opportunities that meant that I can become professional and and sort of make that next step. What kind of ongoing impact do you think he will have on you? I? I think about Jack. Quite a lot, actually. And, um and sometimes when I'm working on something or if, um, if I'm at a at a concert [00:23:30] somewhere, or if if there's something coming up, I always think to myself, I think Jack would really would really love this. I think he'd really he'd he'd find this really exciting and, um and and that's I know I'm not alone in that. I think that a lot of people find that about, um the the work that they do, He sort of he has a he has a presence. I guess, Um, I think that he's also [00:24:00] made me want to, um, to explore the idea of community and to to try and enrich this sense of community within, uh, New Zealand, uh, composition and new music. And I think that that's, um I think that's really something that that a debt that that we that we that we owe [00:24:30] Jack and and New Zealand music, and I think that that's something that has to continue Pretty. You know, he was just one guy who was able to do all these things, and I think it will take more than one guy to to do more of this going forward. But that's that's definitely something that, um, that I feel is his legacy. He always struck me as just this. Um he was like an energizer bunny. [00:25:00] You know, it was just, like, the most amazing amount of energy. I Yeah. And so many projects on the go at any one time. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And and and that's I. I think it's partly why everyone always had a job to do, because he was he was just doing so much. And yeah, and walking into Jack's office or into his home sometimes felt like you were hit with a wall of, of of stuff to do and think about which was great. It was exciting, [00:25:30] but also hard work. And so, yeah, he was He was really, um he was tireless and and really dedicated to this and and, yeah, we've all got to step, step up a little bit, I think a a And he actually wrote a number of quite homo erotic pieces, didn't he? I'm thinking of the Michael Angelo sonnets. And also the real ally opera? Yeah, all opera and, um, a piece called Stations of the Cross, [00:26:00] which is a solo piano piano piece that you wrote for for Dan Point. But there's, um, quite a lot of, uh, It's almost choreographic in the way it's written, and and and there's there's definitely a lot of, um, sort of hoo imagery and theatricality in it. Yeah, it must be quite interesting just to to to go back and look at, um, say, like, Jack's work. But it also earlier say, like, um, work and and see. [00:26:30] I mean, do you see kind of homo erotic elements or homosexual elements? Say, like in Lil Burns work? It's really hard to say. And, um, Jack wrote a little article for the Composers Association yearbook, which is called Kon a few years ago, and, um and I'm not sure if I see anything necessarily in Lil Ben's work. That's, um hoo. I think a lot of it is about [00:27:00] masculinity, though in a certain sense, um, I'm thinking, in particular of Sings Harry and the return. Uh, those are the two that I think have elements of of masculinity and kind of New Zealand masculinity, which is interesting, but, um, I think what? Jack article. If I remember it, right, he sort of suggest was, um, that they had these kind of obsessions and and that that some [00:27:30] how reflected a kind of gay sensibility? Um, I don't know if I agree, but it's it's there. Um, I I I'm trying to think of of many gay composers and and what elements of of their music, um has that kind of, um sensibility or, um, elements of hoo imagery? And obviously, Britain is an obvious example [00:28:00] because these operas were often around gay themes. Uh, especially death in Venice And Peter Grimes, Um, but for John Cage or, um, Samuel Barber or I'm I'm not really sure if if if that kind of applies, if that's something that's there. But, um, with Jack, I think it was really [00:28:30] something that he felt the need to do. And I think it was something that really, um, fascinated him, and he was Also Jack's sense of humour was, um was really amazing. And he had this, um, this preocupa preoccupation with with kit, which is really interesting. And so things like the, um the kind of, um, I. I guess it's like an oratorio. But what [00:29:00] what he did about, um came and there's an awful lot of kind of K and that and it's really interesting and and and quite sort of cute and quaint in a way, which is which is nice. A few years ago, I think it was maybe 2013. Samuel Holloway put on a concert in Auckland that, uh, I think was billed as the first concert featuring all rainbow [00:29:30] composers from New Zealand. Um, and I was wondering, how do you How do you see something like that concert Like I mean, if you're not saying that you've got you can see gay elements in your composition, but to be included in a concert that is specifically about, um, rainbow composers II. I guess the question is, are you happy to see to see yourself as a gay composer? Of course. Yes. And I think when you're programming concerts, uh, if you want [00:30:00] to build a Lincoln, um, it can sometimes feel a little bit arbitrary. But it's it's something that you can, um, that you can do to tie a concert together. And that concert had an amazing range of composers. If I remember rightly. David Hamilton, Um, I think Samuel might have had a piece in there. Claire cow. And these are very, very different and distinct voices. So I think, um, using some [00:30:30] kind of underlying or background element to to tie something that has an enormous amount of variety together is interesting in itself. So of course, there's, um, being programmed in a concert like that would be interesting. Uh, regardless, especially if it was approached in that way, in the in the sense of variety you were saying that you're currently [00:31:00] working on on a composition that that's dealing with kind of everyday sounds and and recent sizing them. Can you tell me more about that? Yeah. So, uh, um, I tend to make little recordings or use, um, recordings of very, very small things. Um, and then, um, transcribe them. So, uh, so not they kind of the rhythm and pitch quality, but, uh, using technology. Now, um, you can also, uh, transcribe [00:31:30] the colour. So the the amount of, um, the the upper upper partials or the the harmonic series that that's resonating. Um, that that's not that, um, prominent and not as prominent as their fundamental pitch. But, uh, that kind of gives them colour, and and because of that, it's sort of you're able to explore the things that make I don't know, uh, a guitar sound like a guitar or a bell? [00:32:00] Sound like a bell, that sort of thing. And and, um, those elements that that that give it that colour are often a little bit chaotic and very interesting, sonically. And so they're the sorts of things that I like to kind of resonate throughout my pieces and and, um, and explore in detail. So that's that's what I've been doing And that's I guess it creates a not an abstract. It's still a sonic link, [00:32:30] but, um, but a link to these sounds that's not about the context, necessarily, but but about the way they resonate and and the way they they, um, they reverberate in both space and also in memory. It's something that I that I like. So how do you pick those sounds initially? What? What sparks you when you hear something around you? What [00:33:00] it's usually an attract an attractive quality to the to the colour, Um, and And so, um, if for me something like water dripping into a glass has, um, has a lot of interesting colour to me, it's it's, um it's a little bit chaotic as a sound and, um, and also quite beautiful. But actually, in some senses that picking [00:33:30] the sounds can be almost arbitrary just because they're just something that that's part of your life or part of your everyday existence. And so it's the element that I like. And from there it's all about the working out is what ends up being the composition the working out of of, uh, what the The little minutiae are to make up the sound. So in [00:34:00] about a month's time, you're heading back down to Yeah, so I'll be back in a few weeks. Yeah, um, and be back at the music school, then. Yeah, and so when you're at the music school, uh, what kind of wisdom do you impart on for? For younger composers? Uh, I, I don't know if there's anything in particular that I I tend to just, um I like to see what people are up to and and see, um, see what [00:34:30] what they like in music, and and, um, and what kind of things they're doing, and then look for ways that I can possibly, um, expand on that and and, um, and find ways to, um, inject little sort of, uh, aspects or moments of of interest, and and, um, and kind of encourage them to explore the extremes [00:35:00] of of some of these things. Um, but usually, II, I think that composers always they have ideas. And and it's about, um, getting those ideas to be, um, mhm to be more fruitful and, um, and finding ways to to get them to, um, to both work, but also to to sort of being much more lateral and much broader [00:35:30] as his musical ideas. So you're still quite young, but there's a generation, um, coming up after. So I'm guessing you, you're you're, um, interacting with the next generation coming up? Yes, I guess so. Yeah. Not not so young. Um, but do you do you see much difference between, say, like, your age group and the people coming through now? Absolutely. Yeah, there is. There is a difference. And I think the difference is, um is partly [00:36:00] due to technology. I'm a pencil and paper composer, and, um and that's always how I learned. And, um and I also, you know, I was a composer who used to just go to the libraries and look at scores. So So that was that was how how I worked. I think younger composers have a better grasp, but much more access to technology. A lot of them don't write anything [00:36:30] down. They work straight on computers. Uh, they do a lot of listening, but But they have, um, access access to libraries all over the place. You know, I used to have to go to the library and and and find find things. So, um, yeah, I'm finding that they're much more digitally sort of aware, And, um and that's that's a big a big change. But, um, you know, otherwise, you see a lot of comparisons, [00:37:00] and and, um and it's nice to nice to be able to talk about when you were you were their age or you were at this stage of composition, so yeah.

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TITLE: Ted Greensmith-West
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VOICES: Ted Greensmith-West
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Board of Trustees; Bob McCoskrie; Catholic school; Destiny Church; Enough is Enough (2004, Destiny Church rally); Family First NZ; Hillary Clinton; Human Rights Act (1993); Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS); Jacinda Ardern; Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (KSA); Louisa Wall; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Sochi 2014 Winter Olympics; Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington; Ted Greensmith-West; The Trevor Project; United Kingdom; United Nations; Wellington; abuse; acceptance; activism; adoption; affirmation; agender; anti-gay laws; asexual; birth certificate; civil unions; closeted; coming out; empowerment; equality; exclusion; family; friends; gender expression; gender identity; growing up; homophobia; homophobic bullying; homosexual law reform; human rights; idealism; identity documents; international diplomacy; internet; intersex; language; law; lesbian; marginalisation; marriage; marriage equality; media; oppression; othering; pain; parents; politics; pornography; prison; public display of affection (PDA); queer; queer bashing; queer rights; queer straight alliance (QSA); rainbow refugee; reclaim; religion; religious education; romantic; romantic development; safety; school; self preservation; sexual development; sexual orientation; single sex schools; sport; support; television; transgender; verbal abuse; visibility; women; women's rights; worker's rights
DATE: 8 June 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Ted. We came across each other at a recent screening of homosexual law reform material from 1985 and 1986. And I'm just wondering, uh, to begin with you you at at the end of that screening you spoke very eloquently about maybe how far we haven't come Tell me about that. So, uh, the screening, um, was, uh, to give some context was for a, uh, a law school event. I'm a law student studying at Victoria University. And obviously, uh, this [00:00:30] year, 2016 is the is the 30 years since the, uh um homosexual law Reform passed, um, in 1986. Um, And I guess, uh, some of the things that I would talk I was talking about as a um as a younger a member of the queer community in New Zealand is the areas that we still have to work towards, um, to achieve full equity and equality in New Zealand for queer people. Um, I think personally, when it comes to my [00:01:00] envisioning of where we need to be going forward, um, there are three different branches. There's, um, legislative change. So stuff like the homosexual law reform and marriage equality over the past few years have been, um, progress in that area. Um, then we also have, uh so what? I would call social acceptance. So the ability and that's sort of more entrenched tackling some of the more entrenched ideas around. Sort of homophobia and queer phobia. Um, allowing [00:01:30] everybody to see queer people as, uh, being, uh, equitable and equal and in in the same way that other people are. Um, and probably the third area of, um, of importance to focus on is, uh, international diplomacy and international advocacy for queer people around the world. Um, and how New Zealand can play a role in, uh, advocating for queer people overseas. One of the comments you made at the end of the screening was that, uh, yes, [00:02:00] we do have law reform, but where can a gay couple hold hands in New Zealand? Exactly. Well, um, we do, Obviously, as you said, we have, We have law reform. So it's entirely legal for gay people to be able to walk down the street and hold hands. And if they so wish, um, and of course, it's legal for them to be married. Um, however, uh, and this probably comes down to what I was talking about with social acceptance is, uh, queer people in New Zealand, [00:02:30] particularly gay people of, uh, of diverse sexual orientation are not able to walk down the street, uh, without first assessing the risk. Um, so you'll be walking home at night with your boyfriend or your girlfriend or your partner. However, you choose to describe them and you're a queer person, and you'll be constantly looking ahead of you along your journey as to whether there is any dangers ahead. So, for example, you're coming home at night after going out drinking. Let's say, um, you're walking down Courtney [00:03:00] Place, um, in Wellington and you know you're looking around. Are you thinking to yourself? What about that bar over there? There's a group of men hanging around outside that pub. Do I feel comfortable walking past them, holding hands with the person that I am sort of in a relationship with or you're walking down and there's a shortcut home, but it's down a dark alleyway, and you think to yourself, Is it safe for us to be able to go down there as a couple? Um, these are all things that queer people are constantly thinking when they're walking down the road. Uh, particularly [00:03:30] at night. But during other times during the day, Um, also, I think even if you live in a particularly nice area of town, let's say you go out, um, shopping for the day. And you go to, like, a posh department store or something like that and people will still notice. Um, and I think true equity will be people not noticing and people just being OK with it. Even if I said posh department store, you know, people look and they say, Isn't it nice to see that gay couple out and about together that's still [00:04:00] noticing? That's still making us something other than the norm. And I think there is some. You know, there is something special about queer people. I think we are different from the norm, but I think there's no reason to treat us any differently socially, that is. So. Have you ever been either queer bashed or, um, had abuse thrown at you regularly? Um, I remember when, particularly at high school, I think. Now, Um oh, but then again, I don't know. It's I keep on [00:04:30] telling myself like, Oh, I'm a you know, I'm a I'm a 21 year old man. Now I'm quite tall. I don't think anyone would want to pick a fight for me, but then again, um, recently in the past six months, I was walking down, um, down, uh, to a work function late at night. I was, you know, sort of dressed quite smartly because of the place that I work. Um, and I walked down a, um, sort of an alleyway, sort of a shortcut down the road. And I remember, sort of, um, being hassled by a group of men, uh, wanting [00:05:00] to, uh, have my wallet and various sort of slurs were thrown at me then, um, and of course, there's nothing. Um Well, I don't know. There's obviously something visually, uh, about queer people that makes them stand out, even when they're when they're by themselves That makes people feel the need to harass, um, each other. I think for me, the main extent of my queer, um, bashing or queer abuse comes from a from high school. Um, and, [00:05:30] uh, I think that would be common for a lot of a lot of young people nowadays is that often it takes place in high schools and high schools aren't safe for queer people. So what What years were you in high school? Um, I was at a, uh, Catholic, uh um college, sort of mid two thousands to I think I graduated high school in 2012, 6 years. I think. Yeah, [00:06:00] I've been out of uni for too long, so I mean, that is still, like, 20 years post law reform. So you were still encountering quite a lot of of houses, then? Definitely, Definitely. And I think if you ask anyone coming from a single sex high schools, I mean, I went to a coed school, so it was a little bit easier. Um, but if you ask anyone going to single sex schools, especially asking gay men who went to single sex, uh, high [00:06:30] schools, their experiences are horrific. Um, and I think this is a really common thing. This is happening to, um, all the time, and I don't think it's just, um, gay people. I think trans people as well. Although trans people can also be gay as well. We You know what I mean? It's not just, um gay men. It's, uh it's people of all sorts of diverse sexual orientations and gender identities or lack of So Were you out at college? Yes. I came out when I was 13. [00:07:00] It was, um, an interesting experience. I've always known who I am and what I am for, um, wealth. Ever since I can really remember, um, And I think I grew up in an environment at home that was very accepting of, you know, difference. And I think for a while, especially when you're younger, you I don't really think you have necessarily an orientation or or any form, let alone a sexual orientation. But I think there's definitely, [00:07:30] um, signs that, you know, people are different and people, um, are queer or have a queerness about them. Um, and I think I was very lucky in being able to pinpoint what that was, um, at such an early age. But then again, I also think, you know, it's at that stage where everybody's kind of, you know, 13, 14 people begin to sort of think about things in a sort of sexual light. You know, straight people do it as well, and I don't see why any reason as to queer. People should have to wait [00:08:00] five years to be able to fully realise their sexual identity and, like, um, straight people. So for me, I came out when I was 13. Um, and what does that mean coming out at that age? I mean, well, it's a for me. It's a it's it it mean it meant, uh, putting friendships at risk. It meant putting personal safety at risk. Um, especially considering that I went to a Catholic high school, Um, which isn't the most, Uh, even if it's a liberal Catholic high school, it's still going to be difficult. [00:08:30] Um, if you live in a small town or if you live rurally, it means putting yourself at risk in terms of there's very little support networks out there for people. Um, it really is like stepping out of to to repeat a cliche. It's like stepping out of out of a box. Um, but it can be a very lonely experience for some. I also think it's quite an empowering experience. I'm not necessarily convinced by arguments that say queer people shouldn't have to come out. I mean, I don't think we [00:09:00] should have to do anything. But I think that coming out for a lot of queer people, that self affirmation of I am this or this is how I identify this is what I am is a very empowering experience for people. I also don't think it's a one time event, so, you know, I might have come out when I when I was 13. But we're coming out every single day of our lives all the way through our lives. And our, uh you know, our sexual identities and our gender identities develop and change and morph all throughout our lives. [00:09:30] Um, I think it's interesting comparing my experience as a queer person and as an out queer person. Uh, in high school, compared to once I left high school, I think there was, You know, there was a massive sort of, uh, maturity shift there. Um, so, you know, there's always different, Sort of, uh, it's like a rose. There's lots of different sort of petals to to the to the stem if you think metaphorically like I do. And so how did how How was it for you coming out [00:10:00] at 13? Oh, quite difficult. Um, because of the fact that there were no other out people at my high school. Um, it was me. Um, I knew there were other queer people at high school, but it wasn't my job to tell anyone who they were or what they were. It was, you know, that was their right, and I would keep that secret. Um, but I was definitely the only one who was out until about two or three months before we all left in year 13. Um, broke up for uni. So, um, it was [00:10:30] an incredibly isolating experience at times. Um, not having support networks, Um, and I think it's interesting, because at the time, I thought I was like, Right, Well, this is just something that I'm doing, and I just sort of get on with it. But once you leave, uh, that environment you I think a lot of that pain and a lot of that damage catches up with you. And for a long time when I first left high school, there was a lot of, uh, catching up on a [00:11:00] lot of, um, pain that I didn't allow myself to feel because I had to put it to one side because I just had to keep on going. It was, you know, it's like survival. You have to put it underneath the rock. You have to deal with it later because what matters every day is getting up and doing what you would normally do. It must be incredibly hard knowing that there might have been other gay or queer people at school, but they not being out. So it was kind of like a kind of this hidden. It was hard, Um, and I think [00:11:30] it's interesting. I don't judge anybody who decides to remain closeted because obviously there is that real social danger. However, I think for a lot, and this is goes back to what I was saying about my ma sort of the maturity aspect of leaving high school for a long time I had to come to terms with a lot of internal bitterness towards those people. Those people that I knew were were actually, you know, closeted and uh often [00:12:00] at times were quite homophobic towards me and, uh in in a way that was, uh, acting in a sense of self preservation. And, um, I think I think there's still a little part of me that is quite bitter and angry towards them. Um, but it's about, uh, moving past that and asking what is the bigger picture? And actually, uh, you know, it it is hard to be closeted. I think it's even harder to be the only person who's [00:12:30] out. And if it meant that those people were able to feel like they could come out because they'd seen, you know, they'd seen the worst of it all. And the storm had passed in their minds because they've seen it. Sort of, uh, um, put up against somebody else. Then. If that means that they are living a happier life, then I don't really mind. So were there any, um, like, queer? Straight alliances or no, nothing. What about externally from school? Were there not support groups? No support groups? [00:13:00] Nothing. Even even if there was anything it would probably be. It probably would have been located solely at the university at a university level. And then, um, I seem to remember, um, expressing a desire to go along to one of those events. And, um, a person close to me telling me that Oh, you wouldn't want to go to that because there'd be older game in there that might think that you might be sort of a bit of a catch. So I wouldn't be comfortable with you going to that. Um and that was from someone that I wouldn't [00:13:30] regard as homophobic, but still made a blatantly homophobic comment. And it stuck with me for a long time because I think it shows actually how ingrained people's assumptions and attitudes about people are. Um, so no, there were no, There were no support networks whatsoever. None. What about the Internet? Were you getting any information from me? Um, well, it's interesting. I, um one of the things that I, uh one of the reasons why I I study, um law [00:14:00] is, uh is because I'm interested in queer issues. And one of the papers that I'm doing at the moment is on law and sexuality. That's why I was talking at that class. And I have recently done a, um you've been writing a a sort of a, uh, an essay about the the influence of gay porn on a on a young gay people. And it's very interesting. It's very interesting. II. I think I start the essay by asking my lecturer to clutch up holes because I'm gonna go there. No. Holds [00:14:30] bad, but, um, I, I think. And I think it's interesting that you mention Internet because, um, I do think that, uh, and this is one of the things that I obviously have been talking about for a while. Is that because queer men are not allowed to express any form of sexual or sort of romantic, um, development right from an early age? You know, uh, you think of the typical sort of high school sort of development. Like, you know, you might have your first girlfriend, and [00:15:00] you're not really, you know, you're not really, um, in a relationship. You might just, like text each other and, you know, it's a thing. Or then like you move on and then you might be 15. You might, you know, have a girlfriend that you might hold hands with. And, you know, it sort of progresses along that route and straight people are allowed to develop that form of healthy sexual development. But gay people aren't because we're told right from an early age that we're not allowed to be gay and that being gay is something that we should be ashamed of and that it's unnatural. [00:15:30] Um, so when people turn 18, they they they know nothing about relationships. They know nothing very or very little about healthy sexual relationships and the one area that they can find it is online in the form of, uh, Internet porn. And I think that can be incredibly damaging to a lot of queer people because I think it embeds, um, certain ideas about sex that I think can be quite unhealthy. But that's just my opinion. [00:16:00] Yeah. So Internet Internet sources were obviously I mean, you you have things like the Trevor Project, which, um, has a fantastic, um, resources available. There's I don't feel like there was very much for New Zealand youth, um, in terms of support networks. But there were, you know, there were things like the the tracker project and sort of, um, various, um, things like that that were available. And I guess nothing actually beats face to face. You know, either meeting up with somebody for a coffee [00:16:30] or doing whatever. Exactly. And a lot of the queer people that I knew were much older, so they were often friends of my parents or, um Well, actually, they only ever were friends of my parents. They are often much older, um, and often lesbian, which is great. Like I love I love, um, my parents, lesbian friends, I think they're amazing, Um, and incredibly supportive and wonderful people. But often you need someone. I think you need someone like you to ever really [00:17:00] feel like that. I mean, I if I if I'd had, you know, a gay uncle or something, that would have been the best thing in the world. But sadly, I'm not blessed with such a gift. I'll have to be a gay uncle. And And how did you navigate the whole kind of kind of religion and sexuality thing? Well, I'm, uh I'm not religious, and I never have been, Um, and my parents are not religious. Um, [00:17:30] so I always entered the school as sort of the part of the, you know, 10 or 15% that, uh, were not. And they had to take on because, you know, because of the because of the law and stuff like that. So, for me, religion was never AAA burden on my mind. Um, although there were elements within the school that were difficult when it came to queer rights and how that related to religion. So I think the school was very careful [00:18:00] to not say anything expressly negative because I don't think they would have gotten away with it, frankly, um, because it wasn't fully private. I think there were definitely people that held very firmly held religious beliefs against queer people. And I think it I very quickly cottoned on to who they were. And I think they very quickly cottoned on to what I was. Um, so, uh, mutual avoidance was always quite healthy. Um, I, I think. I think, um, [00:18:30] it's interesting. For example, Lewis of Walls, Marriage, Equality Bill was sort of coming to its first, uh, you know, first important stages in, uh, 2012, which was my last year at high school. And I remember being all over the news and people were talking about it in my year group. But it wasn't something that was allowed to be discussed at all class, and a lot of people brought it up in our and our education classes, and, uh, we were told, Oh, well, we're not going to be talking about that. That's not relevant to what we're talking about today. So, [00:19:00] uh, there was just a complete It was It was like a cone of silence over everything. That's probably the best way of describing it. Yeah, I think I think one of the hardest things for me, and it was sort of one of my memories was, uh I mean, I've always been quite an ambitious and politically active person, so I ran, uh, for board of trustees, Rep. Um, at my school, um, And I remember a teacher. Uh um when I asked for their vote, um, telling me that they didn't think that I embodied the values [00:19:30] of the school. Um, because of who I was. Um, and, uh, that was not a particularly pleasant experience. Um, and I'm not entirely surprised that that was something that happened, but it was what it was. And, you know, you just keep on going. Um, yeah. What about your family? How how were they? Um, my family were OK. Um uh, I think my parents knew, uh, for a long time, [00:20:00] and I think it's interesting because I think I was always taught that it's completely normal. and completely fine to be queer. Um, even before I realised that that's what I was myself. Um, so I think, uh, that for me was a matter of Well, if that's the case, then I don't feel the need to be, have to nail anything particular upon myself, and, um and unfortunately, because the world that we live in I don't really think that works. So eventually [00:20:30] I had to sit down with my with my with one or other of my parents and just say, Look, this is what I am And, um, you know, this is this is you know, this is why I am I am. And I think, um, you know, I, I don't blame, uh, my family for that I. I don't think that that's II. I almost don't think people can help it because that's the society that we live in. But I think that, um, at least on a family level, if you're [00:21:00] taught that there's there's nothing wrong with being queer there, you can just be completely whatever you are. And that's absolutely fine. Then. Uh, as far as I'm concerned, I think Children should be able to bring home a boyfriend or a girlfriend or, you know, or a partner that they that they care about. And it should just be something that happens, not something that they have to declare. Um, so that's, you know, an issue that I think, um is important. Um, I think it's also difficult when you are the only visible queer person in your family. As I said, I don't have any, [00:21:30] um, queer relatives that I know of. So being the topic of conversation is difficult, and especially if you know that the conversations are happening. But you're not privy to them. You know that. Everybody's saying. But what about such and such? Has he come out yet? And you know that sort of thing. And it's just like, Oh, I can't be bothered being talked about over cups of tea and ginger nuts with family members. It's not something that I'm interested in. So [00:22:00] you're using the word queer. And so I'm wondering, why do you use that word? I think it's interesting because a lot of people don't like the word queer. Um, I have a few friends that are, uh, LGBT, um, and don't like the word queer because traditionally obviously queer is a slur against has been a slur, but in recent times it's been reclaimed. Um, I use the word queer because I feel like it's very all encompassing. I feel like, um, it doesn't put [00:22:30] boundaries or labels on anyone. It just makes it just embodies us as a group without necessarily sort of having to define us. Um, because I think, for example, example, the term LGBT is inherently. When you begin sort of categorising everything, it automatically is exclusive towards certain groups of people. For example, LGBT is literally lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans, transgender or transsexual. But, you know, there are obviously other groups in our rainbow community [00:23:00] that, um, do not fit into any of those categories. You know, you have intersex people or you have, um, a gender people or you have asexuals people. Um, I also use the word queer because I think, um, we need to move beyond the point where we have to justify and label ourselves to straight people. We can just be ourselves and whether you know, as a gay man, you know, or a queer man as I like to call myself, I don't like to I don't want to place [00:23:30] a restriction upon my upon myself to say that maybe one day I'll have a girlfriend Who knows who knows? I you know, I will never know. I hope to live a long and fruitful life, and anything could happen. But I think as soon as we as queer people start putting labels upon ourselves, straight society will hold us to those labels in a really restrictive manner. And I think we need to transcend that for want of a better word. Yeah. You were saying [00:24:00] just before about marriage equality and what What were your thoughts on marriage? Equality? I thought it was a great thing. Um, I think marriage equality, uh, is really important. I think that a lot of people see marriage as being a very inherently oppressive, uh, system. Uh, and I would not disagree with them on that. I think for years it's been the, uh, tool of oppression and marginalisation against women. I also think against queer people, but I think that [00:24:30] there is a lot to be said for marriage. I think that, uh, being married is, uh if somebody wants to have that, then I don't see why anyone should be denied it. Um, I think one of the things that I have struggled with, though, is how, uh, marriage equality and and I realise that we're only a small group in society, and we can only, uh when it comes to sort of air time talking about issues. It's very difficult for people to be able to [00:25:00] think about lots of different issues at once. Uh, so I think the fallout possible consequence of marriage equality was that other issues in the queer community, especially for trans people, um, were put to one side. And I hope that in the post marriage equality world that the queer community starts to move towards, uh, fighting for rights of people who are, you know, trans and intersex and gender or asexuals, um, in [00:25:30] the same fervour that they were for, um, for fighting for, um, marriage. Equality? That was interesting, wasn't it? In the, um, 1985 86 footage where those same kind of, uh, statements were being made in in terms of Well, actually, um, the gay people need to come along and need to support other issues besides law reform. Well, one of the I think one of the most important things about, uh, homosexual law reform is that it actually acted as a catalyst for a wider queer [00:26:00] rights movement. Um, it put queer rights on the agenda, Uh, for the first time in a, uh, in a really, uh, symbolic way. Um, and I think that it has progressed significantly legislatively. It's progressed a lot. I think socially, we've come a long way, but I think we've got a way to go yet. Um, and I think that is gonna take more than a few bills in parliament. It's going to take generations [00:26:30] of hard work. So, being born in the nineties, how did you kind of react or relate to that material from the mid eighties? Um, well, I'm British, so I. I always found it quite shocking that New Zealand was so late coming to homosexual law reform. Of course, it was, uh, you know, a big, uh it was, uh, the sixties in the in the UK. Um, and my family being British, you know, it's obviously, uh, been legal in the UK [00:27:00] for, um for much, much longer. Almost a whole generation. Um, of gay people, uh, were allowed to be sort of who they were before people in New Zealand actually changed. I don't when you think about it, 1987 wasn't really that long ago. Um, if you think if you think that I was born in 94 and it was sort of passed in, uh, 86. Um, I think was it Royal in 87 or something like that? I don't know. I think it was the end of 86 August 36. [00:27:30] Yeah. So, uh, so it would have been for eight years, which isn't, you know, isn't much. It's the one term one lifetime of the average government in New Zealand. Eight or nine years? Um, so not not that long at all. Really? Um, I think looking at the footage, I was shocked at how well how openly, awful people were. Um, but then again, those people still exist today. [00:28:00] They've just moved because society has said you're no longer allowed to say these sort of things about queer people. So they've regressed, um, into areas where they can be just as vile as they were back then. You know, we have family first talking about, uh, Trans people in bathrooms and how they're going to abuse Children and all of that nonsense, the same people as that, you know, as were in the documentary saying vile things about queer people then and it's the same people. Now, um, [00:28:30] we just kind of keep on fighting them. Another kind of vile episode in in, um, New Zealand's history. I guess it was civil unions with destiny Church. Do you remember that? Yep. Definitely. In fact, I probably remember it. Uh, quite, uh, quite well, Um, even though it would have been Oh, God, it was 2004 or five. So I wasn't out at that stage, but obviously sort of was very aware about feelings and and and clinicians and I definitely knew [00:29:00] queer people. Uh, I remember it being on the news. I remember it being quite frightening, actually, um, even if I wasn't entirely self aware, I think as a human being, just watching it unfold. Um, the particularly the, um the march down the street by, um by, um, the destiny church people, um, was quite frightening because I think it was a very strong statement against equal rights in New Zealand [00:29:30] and I think, as a very young person. And it was it was Well, I mean, as a older person, it probably would have been scary as well. But, you know, I think I think that did leave an impression on me. And I think anyone who remembers that will probably remember it for the rest of their lives as being something that was quite scary. You were saying earlier that you're now studying law. What drew you to law? What drew me to law? I asked these questions [00:30:00] every day when I'm stuck in the law library studying for some bloody contract exam. Um, what drew me to law? Well, I've always been, um, an activist at heart. Um, um, I've always been politically active, Um, a bit of a rabble rouser. Um, and I guess I came to the sort of thought process at the end of my time in high school as to what I wanted to do with myself. And I have always been interested in politics, as I said, and I think [00:30:30] I saw Law as a well, I. I saw it as something that could help me move into an area that I really wanted to in terms of my political activism and general knowledge about sort of legislative change and everything. It's interesting. I think everybody comes to law differently. Um, it's a bit of a bit of a brutal old process going through law school. A lot of people do it because they want, um, you know, they want the money. It [00:31:00] it's quite well paid. Um, a lot of people do it because I think they do it because their family has always done it. And no one in my family has done law. As far as I'm aware, I think I did it because I want to make the world a better place. And I think, uh, having the knowledge that a law degree can give you especially if you're a queer person, gives you a, uh, an extra tool in your box to be able to, um, go out there and fight the good fight. So what are the fights that you are kind [00:31:30] of most keenly interested in? Not necessarily queer, but well, um, I believe that, uh, queer rights are one of the most important things in society. II, I believe strongly in fighting for queer rights. Um, I'm a bit of an old school socialist, so I think that workers' rights are incredibly important. Um, I think that, uh, for well, II, I think, [00:32:00] uh, as a man, I think it's important to know, uh, what you can do in terms of supporting women's rights. I think women's rights is extremely important. I think that is because of the fact that I, uh, for many years as a queer man, Um, growing up queer was always a very dangerous environment. And I think that, uh, women were usually a lot better. Um, and often were a lot better [00:32:30] with me and a lot better. And with, um, knowing about, um, the struggle that I had to go through And, um and I think I often felt very, uh, accepted by women. And, uh, I mean, I'm not saying that there aren't homophobic women out there and I don't want to make sort of women's rights about me in any way. Um, but what I will say is that I do feel like I have a debt to pay in terms of some of the amazing women out there that have helped me along my journey [00:33:00] and I think it would be incredibly selfish for me to not at least say or offer. What can I do to help you? Um, even if that means sitting in the corner and baking bread, um, or sort of muffins or something for a, you know, feminist meeting. And then me sort of running off down to the shops and buying wine and no, no, no. Like, you know, even if even if that helps II I think it's incredibly important for the queer community and sort of the wider feminist movement to join forces [00:33:30] and burn the patriarchy. I don't know. Those are the Those are probably the I mean, there's lots of different things, but those those are three of the ones that I seem to be talking about the most, and in terms of, um, queer, um, legislation. What are the things that need to be worked on currently? Well, uh, I think, uh, we have, uh we have a long way to go when it comes to the Human Rights Act. So this government [00:34:00] has not taken any steps to changing the Human Rights Act to include any form of, uh, recognition of gender identity or gender expression. Um, they are committed to thinking that sex is encompasses encompasses gender identity, which it doesn't. Um and they make that statement without any support from any queer thinkers or any sort of queer evidence. They don't actually make that decision based on our lived [00:34:30] experiences as a queer community. I think if we look at the laws around birth certificates for trans people, um, the the requirements are appalling. They require trans people to basically prove themselves before a court of law and then sub, and then they're subjected to various forms of medical examination, which I think is degrading and inhuman. And I think, uh, that that law needs to change. Um, I think that there needs to be massive, uh, [00:35:00] legislative reform around, um, around some of our adoption laws. I think it needs to be modernised. I think that it does affect queer people because I think, you know, you look, uh, at the discussions that were happening the other day. Um and I think it was Jacinda Ardern and, um that, um, man Mike Mccrorey from her family first were discussing the, um, the laws and, uh, sort of de facto sort of gay couples. And, [00:35:30] um, these laws obviously still affect queer people. And in some way, um, and they challenge people's ideas about whether where people should be able to, um should be able to, um, adopt Children or not. So those are three main ones that we definitely need to be looking at immediately, I think wider legislative action. I think looking at the court process in terms of how, uh, trans people are treated within [00:36:00] the justice system, um, you look at the way that trans people are treated when they're sent to prison. Um, they are not allowed to be sent to a present that conforms with their gender identity immediately. It used to They used to be sent, uh, to places. Um, uh, they are assigned with their biological sex, and then they weren't so it was very difficult for them to be able to leave. Uh, but now, uh, you're able to apply to change, but you get sent to that prison [00:36:30] that you know, performs with the biological sex first. Um, and we know that, um, during that time period between when they're first sent there and when they apply to change that, um, abuse and sexual assault can happen and that it does happen. And this government has done nothing about about that, um, to date. Um, and I look forward to seeing some changes in that because I think it's really important you mentioned earlier about, um, international diplomacy. Yeah, and [00:37:00] I was wondering if you could talk about that. Well, um, New Zealand was one of the founding members of the United Nations, and I think one of the things that the UN has always been if we look at international law, the human rights law, um, has always embodied, uh, rights for humans. Um, in terms of you have a right not to be, uh, restricted of your freedom of speech. You have a right to, um, to not be unjustly sort of, [00:37:30] uh, imprisoned. You have a right to not be tortured. Um, and I think it's interesting. One of the, uh, one of the now presumptive Democratic nominee for, uh, US. President Hillary Clinton gave a speech at the I think it might have been the Human Rights Commission. I'm not, uh I'm not quite sure what, uh, organisation it was, but, uh, she said, um, that gay rights are human rights and human rights are gay rights. And whilst the people, uh, in the room, uh, drafting the nine in 1947 the the [00:38:00] Bill of Rights or the sort of the international, um, piece of legislation around, uh, human rights might not have had gay people in mind. Our rights are still enshrined within that document. And, uh, in New Zealand, Um, as a progressive, uh, first world country, I think it's our responsibility to be fighting for the rights of queer people overseas that are infringed upon by their governments. Um, I think [00:38:30] that can be done through, um, advocacy in terms of the United Nations. I think we can do more for accepting refugees to New Zealand. Um, and I think we can take moral stances. I think, for example, this government has been really keen to enter into progressively more corrupt deals with the Saudi Arabian government. The Saudi Arabian government that beheads queer people and supports [00:39:00] extreme groups like Isis, which think that throwing LGBT people off roofs is a solution to the queer problem, as they call it. And I think we can actually take a really hard stance, and we can say no. This is not something that we are going to be doing anymore. As we're not going to deal with you as a country, we're not going to engage in any form of trade with you as a country If you continue to abuse human rights because, as you know, Hillary Clinton said human rights are gay rights and gay rights are human rights. [00:39:30] Hm. I think maybe sort of attached to that as well. When you look at New Zealand's role as a I mean, one of the things that we seem to always be talking about is how much of a, uh uh a sporting nation we are And how, um, and how we and how we are, uh, one of the world's best nations when it comes to, um, athletic competition. And, uh, as we know, gay rights internationally and domestically are not recognised on the sports [00:40:00] field. And I think I think it's interesting there was the Winter Games in Sochi, which was I think it was 2013 or 2014. Um, and, uh, this was at the time where the Russian government was, uh, making, uh, advances towards a really, uh, restrictive, Uh legislative framework for queer People and their advocacy so called anti gay propaganda laws. Um, and New Zealand continued [00:40:30] to send, uh, athletes to that games. Uh, despite the fact that there was, uh, an international boycott by various members of the of you know, the sporting community. We look at artists, uh, and sort of singers and pop stars who actually won't go to Russia won't perform in Russia because they object to, um to anti gay laws. And I don't see why New Zealand as a as a country that, you know, since the 19 eighties we've been having, we've had an independent [00:41:00] foreign policy, you know, since the nuclear since nuclear free in New Zealand has always said we have we have an independent foreign policy that is about New Zealand and not influenced by other state actors. And I think it's important that we stick to that when it comes to gay rights. And I don't see why gay rights and queer rights should be any different from nuclear issues or, I don't know, trade issues. It was footage from 30 years ago that brought us together in terms of, um, seeing the screening together [00:41:30] and I'm just wondering as a as a kind of final question, can you project 30 years into the future and and describe what your ideal world is is like my ideal world in 30 years time. Uh oh, gosh. Well, uh, my ideal world in 30 years time would be where I think that's impossible to answer. Actually, I have to be honest, because we have, you know, we have no idea what's around the corner. And, um, as as we see, different [00:42:00] generations of people are having to deal with different issues at different times of their lives that, um, that past generations will never have to deal with. Um, we look at the experiences of queer people today, or we look at the experiences of queer people in five years time compared to, you know, 30 years in the past. And I think we're having to deal with very different circumstances and different challenges. So I think it's really hard to be able to predict what we would [00:42:30] want in 30 years time. I think I think for me, though ideally it would be, and I and I am such an idealist would be a world where, um people, regardless of their gender identity or sexual orientation, can feel like they can live freely and equitably in society as, um, independent people, um not feel like they're restricted or told [00:43:00] that they can't be who they are because of some people's attitudes. I think that's and I think that's what a lot of people want and I think we're we're getting there. You know, I, I as I say, we do have a long way to go. But I think we are making steady progress, and I think it's I think it's important to keep that goal in mind, even though some people will call us idealists. Actually, we know that the world where queer people are treated equally will look no different than the world we currently [00:43:30] live in. Today you know there will still be you know you'll still get into an argument with your parents, and you know you'll still not want to get up in the morning because it's too cold or you'll still get into an argument with that man because he stole your parking space. I don't know all those sort of issues will life will continue on being just as boring as it is when queer people have the right to be able to live as free and equal citizens as everybody else.

IRN: 1029
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/outerspaces_information_evening.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004453
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089747
TITLE: OuterSpaces information evening
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Jac Lynch; Jevon Wright; Kassie Hartendorp
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Bella Simpson; Canada; Carl Greenwood; Christchurch; Community Law (Wellington); Des Smith; Evolve Wellington Youth Service; Fabulunch; GC2b Transitional Apparel; International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association (ILGA); Jac Lynch; Jevon Wright; John Jolliff; Johnsonville; Kassie Hartendorp; LGBT Health and Wellbeing [LGBT Healthy Living Centre] (Scotland); Lee Eklund; Mother's Network NZ; Naming New Zealand; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand Needle Exchange Programme; Outerspaces (Wellington); Project Youth (Kapiti); Salvation Army; Sara Fraser; School's Out (Lower Hutt); School's Out (Wellington); Scotland; The Glamaphones; TraNZgear; Tranzform (Wellington); Tīwhanawhana; University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine; Wellington; Wellington Binder Exchange; Wellington East Girls' College; Wellington Gay Welfare Group; Wellington High School; Wellington Institute of Technology; activism; birth certificate; chest binder; clothing; counselling; dysphoria; education; funding; fundraising; gay; gender identity; gender reassignment surgery; graphic design; hair removal; health; health system; helpline; identity; identity documents; intergenerational; kaupapa; lawyer; lesbian; moobs (man boobs); movies; op shops; packers; passport; peer support; pool; self care; shoes; shopping; sleepover; social media; social networking; support; training; transgender; transition; volunteer; website; youth; youth group; youth work
DATE: 10 May 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Evolve Wellington Youth Service, Level 2, James Smith Building, corner Cuba and Manners Streets, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the OuterSpaces information evening. OuterSpaces is a collaborative initiative between Wellington's gender and sexuality diverse youth support organisations: School's Out, Tranzform, Naming New Zealand and Wellington Binder Exchange. A special thank you to the organisers and participants for allowing this event to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Everyone, Um, just gonna start off by opening with a and this one is gonna be a song that I've rounded up two unexpected people to be a part of, um and yeah, we're just gonna I guess, begin just by, um Yeah, just starting off with this, um, that we usually sing with who is the organisation, and yeah, if you're keen on learning this song or please, um, come and chat to us because we know more about it or [00:00:30] come stand with us and read the words and sing with us. We start it off. Cut. Fuck, He [00:01:00] cute. K is I Hey, here, See? [00:01:30] Hey, Thank you. Awesome. OK, um um [00:02:00] um, everyone thank you so much for coming along tonight to our outer spaces. Info, evening slash meet and greet. We're really excited. Um, that we're able to host this and really thankful for both Evolve, who is, um, providing our space tonight and to our amazing people in the kitchen. Carlin Lee, um, who are have been preparing the food. So please dig in. It all needs to get eaten, so Yes, please do that. Um, the main for tonight of what [00:02:30] we're doing is that we basically wanted to give people a chance to come together and learn a little bit about what outer spaces is, what we're up to, and maybe ways that other people might want to help. So I guess I can give a I'll give a little bit of a history of outer spaces. Um, basically, how it began. What well, it began about maybe 17 years ago with schools out, Um, and it started off as a group based at Wellington High. Um, and through [00:03:00] the years it's been for schools that was facilitated as a social support group for young gay, lesbian transgender questioning young people, um, a safe space for them to be able to express who they are, meet other people, get the support that they need. Um, over the years again, there's been lots of different people who have helped out with that. Um, and we're really excited to be keeping that alive. Um, even though it's been usually on, you know, little funding, little resources, like a lot of different community sector [00:03:30] kind of projects. Alongside that as well, is transform. Transform is another group that, um, that started off with being a safe space for transgender and gender diverse young people. Uh, they kind of the The idea of them was that, um it would be a little bit of an older group. So that group runs up to 30 yeah, it still meets every fortnight here in this room, um, to be able to provide some support to young people if they're transitioning or questioning their gender. So over [00:04:00] the past two or three years, we before then we were, um we had a parent organisation called the Wellington Gay Welfare Group. And they were just an amazing group who originally, I don't know the full history. And there may be some people in the room who can speak more to that, um, not pointing fingers at anyone, but that basically that i It it started from a lot of gay activism and held the gay help phone helpline for a for a degree of years. Um, [00:04:30] and one of the other things that they looked after was our little schools out group as well. So But after a while, we were like, actually, I think it's time that we want to kind of move to become a little bit more, um, independent and really focus on our youth focused. So, um, we made the decision to set up an entity, um, and that the idea was to bring together a whole bunch of different projects that were focused around supporting LGBTI [00:05:00] Q young people in the Wellington region. Um, schools out in transform have always been about support and work on the ground. That's the main thing that we do. Um, we've run groups for quite a while, and some people don't know about them, but they've just been chugging along behind the scenes a lot of the time. And these groups, they ebb and they flow. And sometimes, you know, you can get you've had five people in a room and sometimes that last week we had about 30 people in a room. So, um, so it just a a again, it's always kind of changing. [00:05:30] Now we set up an independent, um, charity organisation called Outer Spaces. The name of this was, um, brought together by young people themselves. Um, and we basically wanted to provide a space to be able to, um, yeah, get all the legal stuff done so that we can do the awesome work that we were already doing running groups on the ground. Um, we had a We had a conversation of schools out with our friends at transform to begin with. [00:06:00] And we said, Do you want to embark on this journey with us? Because to us, it was really important that, um the needs of trans and gender diverse young people were absolutely at the forefront of what we were doing and anything what we're doing, um, and transform, We're like, yeah, we're real keen. So we began on a process to merge our organisations and create one overarching umbrella kind of organisation along the way. We also, um, we gained name in New Zealand and we have someone here tonight or some people here from tonight, um [00:06:30] which provides funding for young, transgender and gender diverse people to be able to, um, change their identity documents as we're just aware of all the barriers that young transgender people can face. And we also here have, um, a rep from the newly established Wellington Binder Exchange, which provides binders for young people, mostly who are trans masculine. So, yeah, I guess the whole purpose of Outer Spaces has really been about regional local support but bringing different people together to be [00:07:00] able to do it well. We recognise that most LGBTI Q young people are supported by other LGBTI Q young people. And we want to be making sure that we can start providing. We can provide spaces where they can get the support that they need. So what better way to do that than to do it together as much as possible. Now, I guess, right, We've kind of wanted to have a bit of a Yeah, I guess. Just invite people to be all together here rather than like a us just standing up and talking about everything. So to begin [00:07:30] with, what I was going to ask everyone to do is just like we would in any schools out or transform meeting. Start with a bit of a around and we're just gonna ask for This is the talking, Reginald. We pass them around the circle at our groups, and I mean, who who has Reginald Is the person doing the talking? Absolutely. So I guess I just want to pass this around, and if you can, it is If you want to pass, that's totally fine. um, But basically, if you just want to say what your name is, at the very [00:08:00] least and maybe also what has brought you here today or if you're repping an organisation and you wanna rep that does that sound OK? Awesome. But again, you're welcome to us. Um, my name is Charlie, and I'm here because I am the coordinator of the Wellington Binder Exchange as well as I'm a facilitator for transform. Uh, I'm Kate. I am here because I am involved with naming New Zealand. So you've already heard that [00:08:30] we're mainly about raising money for trans and non-binary people to change identity documents and names and all those annoying, little expensive things. And we, through me primarily also provide legal advice about how to do that. Um, so give us money. Ah, fundraise for us. Our next funding round closes at the end of May May 31st, So we'd [00:09:00] really like to never have to make a tough decision and always be able to fund everyone. It's my goal. I'm a I use a pronouns and yeah, I'm just interested in finding out more and maybe volunteering for those of you who don't know me My name is Sarah. I know I hate you. Um, I'm the current co chair at Wellington Get Welfare group, [00:09:30] and I'm a bit emotional because these are our babies and they've grown up and they've moved out, which is always good to get rid of the little ones, but, you know, Yeah. Always getting complaints. I haven't had one of those for a few years. I wonder why. Um, so it's really, really I can't even find the right words. It's just fabulous that, um, outer spaces have become what it has and that you've evolved and taken on new groups and stretching out a bit and [00:10:00] good luck and well done. Thanks. Uh, I'm Linda. Um, I'm I suppose I want to find out more about what the teenagers are up to since we we have one in our apartment at the moment. Sort of like spying on the teenagers. Um, and to support Sarah here with her work with, um gay Wellington. And [00:10:30] you just see what's going on in Wellington these days? I'm Jim, and I'm just here as an interested member of the community. Thank you. Hi. I'm autumn. I'm a member of transform and I've always loved what they do and what schools out do for people that need it. And I just really want to get more involved. Fine. Thanks. Um, I'm Larissa. Um I'm one of the board members of Outer Spaces. Um, also work as a guidance counsellor [00:11:00] at Wellington East Skills College. And we have an amazing, um, queer youth group there, which is going really well, and, um, yeah, really passionate about supporting queer young people. So, yeah, that's why I'm here today. Um, I'm Pat. And, um, I got an invite from Jack coming along. I'm part of the glamour phones, and I'm just here interested to see, um How you guys What? What goes on? I don't know much about it. And, um, how the older [00:11:30] community can help you guys, because I know you're always short of funds, so it's just come along just to get my brain thinking ticking and, uh, meet, meet everyone. Thank you. I'm be I'm a student at WELLTECH. Studying bachelor of youth development here with a couple of my lovely classmates. Um, so it's good to I know quite a few faces here, but good to see the [00:12:00] the turnout um, of yeah. Other support people and people who are wanting to learn more. Yeah. Hello, everyone. Um, I'm Taylor, and I'm currently studying, um, the bachelor of youth development with Bee and my friend here. Amy and I just thought it would be cool to come along and, you know, get more of an understanding of, you know, transgender and on all those type of things, because obviously [00:12:30] working in the youth sector, we're going to get young people from all walks of life. So, yeah. Just thought it'd be cool to come along and hear what everyone's got to say and get more of an understanding. Hey, I'm Amy. And pretty much what Taylor said in first year at BYD and gear get more knowledge, and yeah. Uh, hi. I'm Becca, and I'm a facilitator for schools. Out. Um, hi, I'm Frankie. I'm like his partner. [00:13:00] Um, I'm actually here doing kind of a little bit of a research project because I'm doing a public relations paper at uni, and for an assignment, we have to do, um, a communications plan to help out a not for profit organisation. And I chose skills out because I hear how cool. It is all the time from back here. And I thought it would be really cool to see if I can help out in any way or, you know, Yeah, I'm just really interested. So that's why I'm here. [00:13:30] Hi, I'm Mallory. And I'm here because my auntie made me come here. Yeah, I don't know how to follow that. Um, my name is Kirsten. I'm the manager here at Evolve, um, evolve for anyone who doesn't know, provides free health care and social support and counselling for young people aged 10 to 25. Um, and [00:14:00] it's our real pleasure to host the schools out and transform groups in the binder exchange here. Um, I've heard the word space a few times tonight, and often we talk. We hear, like, safe spaces and things, and and evolve is really striving to be that really, really safe space. Um I guess within a more mainstream organisation, and so that's kind of our thing. Oh, and I'm on the board of Outer Spaces as well. Uh, [00:14:30] everyone. I'm Jack. Um, I'm here because I think the group Sunday outer spaces are really important. And, um, and back in my day, It was a softball team. That was really the way that we came out, which then turned into a soccer team. It was very seasonal. Um, and I, I really want to know just what sort of support your groups need from people. Um, sort of older people like Pat and I getting on a bit, but we can probably help. [00:15:00] I'm Shelley. Uh, I'm probably the oldest person here, to be honest, but, uh, that doesn't necessarily mean that I bring any greater knowledge or experience, uh, to the table. Um, I've been watching our youth from afar, and, um, the queer youth impressed me immensely, uh, with their honesty and integrity, And I think they're an inspiration for us older folk. And, [00:15:30] uh so I'd like to be able to give back in some way and hopefully through tonight, we can find a way to do that. Uh, my name is Kathleen. Um, I have been involved primarily with schools out for the last, um, couple of years and increasingly with outer spaces, the kind of larger beast. Um, yeah. I'll speak a little bit about schools out in particular in a few minutes. I guess. Um, I am has, [00:16:00] um I'm a fairly new facilitator for schools out. Um, so I guess quite interested in seeing how I kind of like the umbrella of like, Outer Spaces works. So Yeah, that's me. Uh, I'm Logan. I've been meaning to get involved for quite some time now, but sort of a shy person, But tonight is the perfect opportunity. So, uh, hi, I'm Rex. I'm Cassie's partner. Came to support outer spaces and see what's up. Really? Hi, everyone. I'm Jen. Uh, it's [00:16:30] so wonderful to see so many people here. New faces and familiar faces. Um, I'm involved with transform for the last couple of years, so I'm sure I'll be talking about that soon. I'm with New New Zealand and outer spaces as well. Hi, everyone. I'm cable and thank you all for coming. Um, I am on the board of Outer Spaces. I'm the chairperson. Um, I've been involved with schools out for a few years. Um, ok, we're not gonna do OK. Um yeah, and I really love hosting these kinds of [00:17:00] events because we are we do tend to operate in the background a little bit. And II I like to get us out there and everyone else learn about us. So people realise that we're here. And, you know, we have so many amazing young people that come along. And I'd love to share that with everybody. You everyone, um, I'm on the board of out spaces, and, um, I've been around for a little while. [00:17:30] I used to work at NZAF when school's out. Me at NAF. So I got involved in, but yeah, it's, um, great to be here presently. I run legal exchanges, not into the crowd. I'm Lee. Um I work for the New Zealand A foundation, so I'm a current community engagement coordinator. Um, so I'm here to obviously help out and, uh, to see if we can contribute to outer space and vice versa. Really? And, yeah, to to engage with a lot of [00:18:00] people with you all. Um um and thank you everyone for that. So, um, if people, um, are sure my name is Casey has and I've been volunteering with schools out in outer spaces in its current form for about six years or so, and, um yeah, and I'm just It's really exciting to see where things have kind of grown and it's Yeah, it's just awesome. Um, And I'm also a youth worker here with a of youth service and work from [00:18:30] these offices, so I'm usually floating around here. Cool. So the rest of the plan is this isn't gonna be a really, really long, long kind of meeting tonight. We don't want to do that. What we do want to do is just provide a chance to have a quick fire kind of idea. Um, about what outer spaces does. And so I'm going to call on a few different people who are involved with each different project. Just give it a little bit more information. And if you have any questions about it, do ask like this is the time to be like, OK, [00:19:00] what is that about? We really don't want people to leave here and be like, What the hell is an outer spaces like? That will be the worst kind of thing that has just happened. So, ideally, this is the time to, um to talk to the people who are kind of helping to facilitate these projects and and yeah, and have some have some questions about that. So without further ado, I'm going to hand it over to to talk about transform, right? Um, yeah. So I've been involved with transform for three years. Um, I'm a trans person [00:19:30] myself. And Transform was super super important to help me work out what Trans was. Was I normal like to just be around other people that that got it. And it was just incredibly, incredibly supportive and wonderful. So after I got through the starting points of transition, I saw transform wasn't really meeting anymore. I was like, Transform has to care a meeting. It's really, really important. And every time that I help out with transform I a reminder that it is really important. Um, So what Transformers is that? We're a support group for trans [00:20:00] young people, and Young is between sort of 16 to 30. I There's a lot of issues on both sides because everyone has different needs and transitions at kind of different times. Um, we often we have, uh, every for every two weeks. We have, uh, support groups here, and we talk about some topic. We'll have guest speakers. We'll have food. Um, we'll have drinks. Um, well, no, not alcoholic. Of course. Um and we just hang out and we find out that we're just We're just We're [00:20:30] just people having fun. We're just got challenges, but we're learning through each other. Um, and we also hold, um, social events. So we do things like coffees, and we have, um, movie nights, and we've gone to the zoo once, and we've gone to the op shop three times. We just, like, pay for transport and we go go clothes shopping, and then we pay for food and pay for transport back. Um, we've also had, um we've hired out the Wellington pool a couple of times and just booked out the entire, like, an entire pool. And it's been just incredible. [00:21:00] Incredible experience. Um, yeah. Another part of transform is that we have websites, and we've been trying to put resources on there for the last year or two. And it's I think it's been helpful for a lot of people who can't come too long to transform who or who don't live in Wellington to learn the sort of resources that that are that are available. That's not part of what transform does. Yeah, I understand anything. Do I have any questions about transform? What they get up to? We normally have about 5 to 10 people [00:21:30] coming along each two weeks. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. So Charlie is also a facilitator. Transformer? Do they come from all around the Wellington region, or are they mostly just Wellington based mostly just from Wellington. Um, I think, Yeah, some Some people, I think, do come in. Uh, So I think the furthest that I know comes in from Johnsonville. Um, but like coming in from palms north or something is [00:22:00] a bit too hard half, sir. Half? I think so. Yeah, mo. Most of them are university students. Um, well, I would say the good majority are so they're usually already in Wellington because of that 25. The other thing, um, as well about transform is they've done really amazing work in terms of the website. Do you want to talk a little bit more about that or so on the website, for example, we have We did a workshop where we just all got in a room and listed all [00:22:30] the really good and really not so good providers in Wellington like good hairdressers. Good dentists. Good GPS. Good. Um uh, exercise places things like that. So that was really cool. We also had a workshop where we we express what we thought our GPS should know and what our health professionals should know. So that's on the website as well. Um, we also have, uh what other resources do we have? There's a number of other resources like resources that link to other support groups around New Zealand around Wellington. [00:23:00] Um, we're starting to interact with the group that's starting up a Wellington Mothers network. They're trying to start up a new support group for mothers of Trans kids and another group which is trying to start up a support group for, um, partners of Trans people come so normally, what a volunteer transform does the the the hardest thing is just going to buy food for the groups. And then, um, we give you, give [00:23:30] you we give you a bit of training or we try to give you a bit of training to help facilitate the groups. Um, if you're really interested, you can organise your own events. So when a facilitators organised shop events like another facilitator organised, um, the pool events, um And, um, if you're really, really keen And if you're really confident in in how you interact with people, then you can start doing mentoring with, um, young people who are just starting out on the journey. It's incredibly rewarding. So we have, you know, this entire range of volunteer opportunities? [00:24:00] I guess so, and done an amazing job alongside people like Charney to make it happen. Is there any other questions for transform before we carry on? No, we're good. Sweet. So the next person that I'm gonna ask to speak is Kathleen sitting here beside me. Um, who's gonna give a little bit of an explanation about what schools out gets up to again? Don't be sure about the questions. If you wanna know something, you can either ask us now or you can also come up and ask someone afterwards. [00:24:30] Sweetheart, Hi again. Um, I even wrote notes and everything, Um, cool. So I'll talk a little bit about schools out. Case has already given a really good, um, like whole history of the organisation. Um, basically, what schools out is is it's a support group for young people. We're talking a bit younger than transform. We're usually talking, um, high school age. There isn't really a lower limit. And I think we've had, like, 12 year olds. Maybe I don't know what I'm looking at, but I think I think yeah, yeah. [00:25:00] So we kind of go from 13 until about 18. 19. And that's our kind of demographic. Um, yeah. And we have groups in, uh, we have one that meets here, Involve every week and one in lower hut. Um, so those are our two kind of areas? Um, yeah, and much like transform. It's kind of like an ongoing support group that also does big events and stuff like that during school holidays. Um, holiday activities we've kind of done like we've gone out to the movies together. We've had, like, sleepover parties. We've done things in parks with dogs [00:25:30] and Easter eggs. Um, we try and we like to try and get the groups together whenever we can, Um, so that kids from the two different regions can meet other people and see that there's a whole big world out there, and that's been really successful. And we've had kids who are still friends from the two different regions. Um, as a result of that, which is cool. We've even managed to link with, uh, project Youth, which is a group up in now, um, to bring them all the way down. So that's Yeah, that's something that we're quite keen on. Um, yeah, um, outer spaces, and especially schools out does [00:26:00] have an office here and evolve as well. Um, so we are actually physically based here, which is really, really useful. Um, so even when it's not group time, we do have a space where we have a whole lot of resources and books and movies and cool stuff like that. Um, yeah, I started off, uh, in the schools out just by coming along as a volunteer facilitator. Um, it is. I mean, our whole organisation is very much a volunteer by very much. I mean, 100% right now, a volunteer run organisation, um, [00:26:30] which has a really amazing culture around that. It's kind of a volunteering organisation in which every volunteer has the same voice and the same say as every other. Um, and I think that's kind of what I loved. And what made me stay was that, um when I became involved, I was really becoming a part of something. Um which is ridiculously meaningful in terms of how important those groups are. Um, because I am talking to a group of people who are mostly in the community. Have been working with the community for a long time. I don't really want to do a sales pitch right now. I'd rather [00:27:00] just talk quite candidly about where the groups are at, um, because you guys all know how important the groups are already. Um, so I think that it's important to acknowledge that outer space is even though, like, we've got a lot going on now. We've nearly even got a logo. Maybe one day, Um, and maybe a website. But we do have a We're, like, spreading out in terms of the different things that we're doing. But we asked, we have got no paid staff right now. Um, we are purely volunteer run. And even though our capacity [00:27:30] is hopefully growing, the need is growing much more. Um, our schools out groups have been getting 30 kids quite consistently, both in lower heart and in Wellington every single week. Um, and queer youth are really an incredible demographic, but one of the most high needs demographics in terms of support. And we have a team of volunteers trying to support that number of kids every single week. Um, as of this term, we've actually had to decide to put both our lower heart and Central Wellington group [00:28:00] on hiatus for the course of the term. Um, this is because we realise that we really need to take a break to train our volunteer facilitators as much as we can. Um, everyone who is volunteering to facilitate those groups is doing it because they love it and are passionate about it. And a lot of our facilitators have been doing it for a long time and are really incredible at what they're doing. But we kind of decided that we need to prioritise, uh, safe practise in terms of how we look after those groups. Um, [00:28:30] yeah. So right now what we are doing is just as of today, we've kind of had, like, little last group parties with both, um, groups to let the youth know what's happening to direct them to other support services for the course of the term, so that we can really, um, do a bit of a volunteer drive, train up our volunteers and then come back next term with a really incredible programme and incredible support system. Um, we can talk a little bit about more about the training that we have coming up. Um, which [00:29:00] is already in the works will be really amazing so that anyone who does want to get involved in any kind of youth work, but especially in the queer kind of sector, Um, that will be open to you. So it's good to We're gonna try and let as many people as we can know about that, because we want to get as many people skilled up in this area as we can. Um, yeah, and that's kind of it. So where we are, I'm happy to take questions and also hang around for a while afterwards by the food table if anyone wants [00:29:30] to talk a bit more about schools out, But otherwise do you want to talk a bit about training? What? That is? Uh, yeah, So as a part of the, um So the outer spaces, as Casey said, is a bit of a merger of a whole bunch of organisations, and at the moment, we're currently, um, establishing like a volunteer recruitment plan, which involves regular training. So we have one coming up really soon, and today is sort of a a day for you volunteers to come along and find out about us. But there are also lots of other volunteers that contact us via email and Facebook and stuff. So the training will be, um, on the 22nd [00:30:00] of May, the end of this month, and it's going to be like a really good 101 for like, we'll do some basic facilitation skills, some basic counselling skills and some really good self care and boundary skills. So we'll be collaborating with other youth services like Youth Client to run those trainings. And those are actually genuinely for everyone. Like if you wanna, we wanna offer it to people who just maybe just want to be in the area or want to start somewhere in youth work or social work or anywhere in human services, and they want to just go along to a good first course. They can go along. [00:30:30] They can find out more about us there as well. They get some really cool training. Um, but it's also a way for us to upskill all of our volunteers. Everybody that comes along is often not very experienced in the youth work community, which is fine because we want to offer training and really good start off points. So we have these beautiful people offering volunteer services for us and supporting our young people and being, like, really, really great and doing everything. But then we also want to be offering some really like cool training after so that they can take that onwards into the world wherever they want [00:31:00] to go in the future. With that, um so, yeah, that's on the 22nd of May, uh, probably here. We haven't decided on the venue yet. Um, it'll be from like, 12 o'clock. That stuff will get posted up, um, on schools like groups and on social media. And we'll advertise that or email lists. We'll have some email lists for people who want to find out about that as well. Yes. Can I just add to that as well? Some people kind of want to know a lot in terms of the groups, whether or not they're too old or whatever, you [00:31:30] know, kind of thing. We get there quite a lot, and I think it's really important that outer spaces as a whole. We we have quite, um, a commitment to intergenerational work to support young people. Um, we don't use a for youth by youth model for the reason that we see this Workers. Really, uh, we need to value, like our older generations who have been through this, and they want to be able to give back. So there's lots of different ways to support. And again, you're never too old to be able to support um, other spaces in the in terms of the actual groups themselves. [00:32:00] We do ask that people are able to relate well to young people. And there are 18 year olds who might not relate well to young people. So it's actually not specific to age. It's about being able to, um, I guess, yeah. Not be able to see 1 to 1, have respect and get along really well with young people. So I guess we don't have a complete age limit. Some, um, support boards do, but, um, yeah, we Yeah, that's just kind of open to us as people to decide. And for us to see how that [00:32:30] goes with the young people cool? Yes, of course. If you are thinking about, um, going through the training, I can just make 10,000. Um, when I started out with transform like I'd never worked with with young people before, I'd never done any sort of social work before. And the training just gave me so many skills. And I just gave you confidence to to be, like, to be who I am today, so definitely can end it. [00:33:00] Hm. Is there anyone who has any questions about schools out or any questions they might have come up? An emailing list was mentioned in regards to, um, finding out venue and the streaming programme. Um, how do we go about like getting on this list? Yep. So if you want to catch up with catch up with Katie here afterwards and we'll grab your contact details [00:33:30] So this training that we're running for people who might be interested is open to our existing facilitators, and it's also open to anyone who might be interested in helping to facilitate groups. Um, it's it's gonna be an open day of training. We just need an idea of numbers and then the what? It's gonna go over basic facilitation, basic counselling skills and self-care stuff as well. And anyone can come along to that. And then by the end of the day, we've [00:34:00] got to have a bit of an idea about who might be the people who might be, you know, really suitable for, um, leading those groups. But I guess knowing that it is a training, it is there, and it's just really helpful to know that stuff just in general for life. So anyone's welcome to come along to that. Any other questions? Thoughts Before we move on, can I get more of an idea of the other roles that you've got for volunteers? We're quite [00:34:30] quite the functioning beast at the moment. So we've got, uh, went out of spaces plans to come back in a new term. We've got new branding coming out. We've got new social media, um, website stuff. So if anybody's like real techy or on to their social media, there's opportunities there to do volunteering, um, funding. We need people to help fundraise to run campaigns. We need people to do communications. Um, graphic design. Uh, if if you have any accounting skills, that would be awesome. because [00:35:00] I'm just learning, um, employment skills. Yeah, There's also gonna be, um there will be times when there'll be spaces available on the board as well. So yeah, it definitely opens to board members or even people who want to, You know, our board meetings are technically public, and people can come along and and learn about what we're up to. And some opportunities might come from that. Yeah. Thank you. Anything any other [00:35:30] thoughts? Questions? Awesome question, by the way. Cool. So is Kirsten still in the room? Oh, Kirsten, do you Am I giving a little bit of a feel about evolve? And, um, I know you've talked a little bit already, but maybe about, um, the history of our relationship and we've had schools out and transform groups running here for a long time, actually, on the space and the space or particularly transform, actually transform back in the old building. Um, [00:36:00] when we moved into this building, we specifically wanted a space that would be easy, easily accessible to a range of different groups in the community. And that's been a big part of, um we're currently looking at moving and a big part of that our our thinking there is to make sure that we can continue to offer that. Um, as I said at the beginning, uh, evolve our whole whole organisation of nurses and doctors and youth workers and social workers and counsellors [00:36:30] are all really, really committed to, um, making evolve a really friendly space for LGBTI Q young people. Um and, um and we're still working out. You know what that means? Practically as well, in some ways, um, but certainly our relationship with outer space is is, um, a key part of that by having the office here by having the groups here, Um, by trying to formalise that by having, [00:37:00] um, as an involved staff member on the board of outer space is doing all of those sorts of things like that. Is that what you had in mind, Cassie? Yeah, definitely. OK. Does anyone have any questions or anything about specifically evolve about that happening? Kind of a swear word? Um, I was just gonna say we like volunteers, too, also, so, you know, um, move is not confirmed yet, but, um, [00:37:30] we're still looking for a suitable space. So if anyone's got a building in an extra 100 grand a year, just casually, just casually. I just really want to acknowledge, you know, um, how important the relationship with a has been. I think there's been a lot of stuff that we wouldn't have been able to do otherwise because we are mostly a group that's been run by volunteers and young people. And, um, it really means a lot that a [00:38:00] main Australian youth organisation who didn't need to take any concerns about trans young people seriously at all. Um did and Kirsten, from the very beginning stepped up and was like, Let's let's work on building a relationship and the fact that we're able to have an office here the fact that we're able to have a physical space and also be linked to a wider youth organisation, which means that at our groups are able to say if you need to see a counsellor, if you need to see a doctor, actually we're already in the [00:38:30] same building. Let's have a conversation and the safety that provides to our young people. So So yeah, so we're really, really thankful for evolve support and I say that weirdly because I now work for Evolve um, but from the beginning, Yeah. Strategic. OK, Yeah. Awesome. Any other thoughts or questions on Evolve? Are we all good there? Cool. Silence. Me All good in here. Um, the next person I'm going to be passing it on to is, [00:39:00] um is Kate who will be speaking from naming New Zealand. Yeah, I know. Um, so naming New Zealand sort of started when I think in my role as a community lawyer. I got asked, I think to talk to transform, but it could have been schools out. Um, yeah. To transform. Yeah. OK, cool. Um, about the legal issues and how how all that works and things. And [00:39:30] I at the end of the group, I asked like So is anyone thinking about changing our ideas? Like, why aren't people doing it? And a lot of people said money was an issue, so I thought I'm a capitalist at heart, and I love making money, so maybe I can make money for some people. And, um, because of my lawyering, I knew how to do all the ideas so I can provide it from that perspective. And we got talking with J, and she thought it was a great idea. So, yeah, that's sort [00:40:00] of how we began. And we're still very new. Um, so far, I think we've had three funding rounds. Is that right? Yeah. Three funding rounds we funded. Yeah, Some some number. So far, we haven't had to turn down anybody in the Wellington region. We've had enough money to fund every ID that we got asked for. We've done name changes, passports, um, funding to see your doctor to get the evidence for the birth certificate. Heaps [00:40:30] of filling in documents for me. Um, which has been awesome. Um, I think what I like about volunteering for naming New Zealand is like Cassie said, I was one of the 18 year olds who didn't relate well to other 18 year olds. And in naming New Zealand, I can still help out, because by fund raising and for filling in boring legal documents. So if you are one of those people who's not so great at relating to [00:41:00] you, perhaps naming New Zealand is a great place to be because you can still be really involved and run some cool fundraisers. We had this really great clothing sale. That fin club helped us sit up and Bella helped out. And and Kathleen, it was awesome. It was We raised so much money. Um, and that's really helped us a lot. And we've done Jin's arranged a whole heap of movie nights, and we're hoping to do more. So I think that that is sort [00:41:30] of where we're looking for volunteers is mainly in fundraising. Um, yeah. And, um, since everyone was talking about training in my other hat, community law is doing a youth rights training for community workers next Thursday. And if you're interested in that, it's all your rights. All the rights of young people dealing with police dealing with wins, training into six non-binary rights, specifically issues with skills. Come talk to me. I can give you a discount. Um, [00:42:00] yeah. Are they? Oh, yeah. Um, do you even made us a website? It's really cool. We've got some really great DIY. Let's like how to change how to do your passport, how to write a statutory declaration, all the forms you have to fill in for the birth certificate, um, some costs of different things, An idea of what's best to do first, if you want to save the most money. That sort of stuff. Yeah. [00:42:30] What is the URL, uh, naming dot NZ. Yeah, well, so do you wanna, um, speak to maybe a few any future plans for New Zealand? Oh, yeah, My dream dream. So I would, um I, I have a dream that eventually Well, I'm sure we all have the dream [00:43:00] that, um we might be able to fund bigger things in the future. So at the moment, we're just doing the quite cheap things with passports and things. But I'd love to be funding things like, um, hair removal and binders and hackers and wardrobe allowance and perhaps way in the future, surgeries when we're making that much money. But, um, those are my dreams. But hopefully how we can grow and maybe also expand into other cities because at the moment, greater Wellington someone's sort [00:43:30] of interested in Auckland with other cities like, we're hoping to get someone in the city to help out with fundraising in the city and also someone in an organisation to help out with performance. And that's how we can expand in China city. Just so young people in that city have someone that they can talk to someone who that they can get checks, no home, any other questions or anything about men in New Zealand and what they do. I do think it's, you know, it's a really [00:44:00] awesome initiative because again, it's just giving something practical to young people to be able to break down some barriers that they see. Um, we know that, you know, transitioning can be really, really expensive. And, uh, yeah, it's, you know, there's a lot of money that can be involved. And so it's really awesome to see a project that just goes away and helps to, you know, kind of try clear, just a couple of costs that people might not be able to do. But it could make a big difference in their transition and in their lives. [00:44:30] So awesome work. Cool. And then I'm going to hand over to Charlie, who's going to be speaking about the B exchange. OK, so this is what A is. Uh, it's basically a chest compression vest for generally trans masculine people to um, some of those guys do wear them as well. Um, to make their chest look masculine. Basically. Um, So I went with a company called G two CB, [00:45:00] cos they basically make binders for, uh, um made by trans guys for trans guys. Um, and this is really important, because otherwise people don't have access to binders if they're under 18 for a lot of reasons, because they're only available in the states cost up to $50 plus shipping. And you need your credit card. Um, so So basically, I wanted to create a way for youth to access binders. Um, and if they don't, they end up using tape. They end up using da bandages and with the state [00:45:30] of the healthcare system at the moment, they can't actually access surgery for way, way too long, so they'll be forced to bind for too long. So the binder exchange came out of an idea for that. But partly, um, a lot of older guys when they've had surgery, especially in the YouTube community, give away their binders. And it was something that we could have done in Wellington really easily. So I had been fundraising for a friend's top surgery. It Luckily his surgery was funded through the bond trust. So I ended up with about $900 so I was like I need to do this money. I need to put it into some something [00:46:00] good for my community. So basically, I ended up buying about 18 binders, and with Cassie's help, we were able to set up the exchange about a month ago at Evolve. So that is currently there's about 15 binders just sitting in the schools out. Um, obviously and yeah, really. The purpose is to make sure that people actually look after their bodies with that sort of stuff, because transitioning, like maybe in New Zealand said is super expensive. And if you're under 18 and [00:46:30] you don't have access because you live with your parents, it's really hard because generally the purpose of the binder exchange is gonna be targeted for those that are under 18 and still live at home with their parents. And they don't have access to binders themselves. Um, and part of it we we don't want to really involve cash. I mean, if donations come in, we're happy with that. But the main point of it is that sort of intergenerational connection. So when older guys have binders that they no longer need due to surgery or other [00:47:00] reasons able to donate them back. And that intergenerational thing within the trans community is really important. Um, I feel and creating those connections between older people and younger people. And I also, um, would like to extend the binder exchange for any sort of thing that trans people need in order to transition. So if trans women have things that would help other younger trans women transition that they no longer use, you're welcome to donate it. And then what I'd really like is just have a massive resources [00:47:30] of things that Trans people need to transition that are built on donations from older trans people. Basically, but it's it's brand new. We've only, um I've had about seven I've done with the Hubble. Cassie. We've donated about seven binders so far, But the thing is, the the donations probably aren't gonna keep up with how many people actually need them. Um, yeah. So does anybody have any questions? Um, [00:48:00] it's you can have a feel of that. So these ones, So there's kind of two main brands, so this one is made by G two CB, and that is that is made by train. Um, I think they're non binary. Trans people based in Maryland. In the States, there's also under works, and I'm quite sceptical of under works because it's made them. They're marketed for trans people, but they're they're designed for C men who basically get moved. Um, uh, man boobs because they get fat. So, [00:48:30] yeah, um, and because people were forced to buy them for, like, I was forced to buy them for 3. 5 years, and my reps are really mounted because of that. Um, I think it's really good to kind of go with a company that actually, um, and try to access binders for people that actually are for trans people. Um, and it's completely free. So yeah. So I should have explained our target demographic better. So, um, who we're generally trying to give out to are people under 18 that still live at home with their parents and don't have any access [00:49:00] to income. But we are pretty lenient on that. So if you're a bit older and are unemployed, we'd be perfectly happy to help. I think it would be great if you can eventually make it nationwide. Yeah, so? So there is. There is who have recently suspended um, or donations because they don't have any funding. But part of it is that we wanted a space where people can try on the binders themselves so they can see what they're like. They have. And yeah, they [00:49:30] basically have a space so they can choose and just kind of get the feel for it without being forced. Because often these things are online and you don't actually have access to see what they're like before you buy them. Um, so that was a big point. And also because it's, um, connected to evolve. Um, it meant that if nurses or doctors were dealing with any young trans patients, they could just go in there and be like, Yeah, you can just take one and kind of just having because evolve has access to the trans community a lot better than just me on the Internet would, right? Yeah, maybe [00:50:00] the, um, with the the youth groups. So with the the young, the young CS women who perhaps have smaller size bras, if the bras are still in good condition, you know, and they're outgrowing them, maybe they could donate them for young trans women. So as long as the elastic at the back is still in good condition. Yeah, because that this is my big grand plans is just creating, um, if [00:50:30] how much of that office I want to take over, But, um, just creating resources for trans people because I just recently came back from Canada, and the pride room at at the university was there was just a mass of resources there for for trans people. There were shoes for trans women, like there were big sizes. And, um, I just kind of want to emulate that in a lot of ways. I just got a question. Um, how long do the binders last? And are there any [00:51:00] hygiene issues? Um, and that's that's part of the issue with, um because people get very dysphoric and they don't want to take them off. But part of it, when people pick up the binders, I do tell them that they need to not sleep in them because they will damage their ribs and the, um Oh, no, we're gonna Well, as long as they still bind, and I'm gonna soak them basically, I'm gonna I'm gonna wash them. Um, So I did get one donated yesterday or not donated [00:51:30] a guy who picked one up and the last at the back, the one that he had been wearing was basically a shot. So I couldn't take it because it was it didn't bind anymore. So if if a binder still binds, I'll take it. Um, I've had a nurse here. Uh, my my nurse from Revolve has offered to sew up the binders that have holes in them and stuff, so I was gonna see if we could potentially fix the one I have. So but, um, and as long as they are hygienic, I mean, as long as they can be washed, Unfortunately, the white ones kind of go a bit grey, [00:52:00] but that just happens because people wear them all the time. That didn't start white, though, did it? Nice. That's never been worn. So we have a whole bunch of new ones that are in there as well. Um, but it is basically, uh, you know, if your size is there, then it's there, and if it's not, it's not kind of thing. So, ideally, it'd be cool to be able to even be able to do orders for people who might not have, you know, your usual sizes. But right [00:52:30] now, people kind of know that it's, you know, just what is there. So it's 48 US at the moment, So they're those ones are 33. Um, I got free shipping on them because they did a mass order. Um, but the quality of those ones are really good, and they're just a lot more comfortable. Just I just really want to promote that company, because, um, I just feel like they're a lot better than what else is out there and because it's giving money back to trans people as well. And so it doesn't hurt people. [00:53:00] And again, it's, um we've had a few. I mean, it's still kind of gaining popularity. We we're actually not massively, um, letting everyone know about it because it is a case where, as Charlie said, we had about 15 that are in there. Um, but please, if you know people who are in need and are around under 18 or so or maybe a little bit older, do let them know, Um and I like, I can honestly say that it's quite amazing, you know, we've had situations where young trans people have come into nurse consults [00:53:30] and they've been, you know, one person in particular had been in hospital because their binder is too small. Um, and it was literally crushing their ribs. They had to go to hospital. And, um, But the flip side is is if they don't wear it, then they don't want to leave house because they're too anxious. So the better option was to wear the binder crush in their ribs. Um, and after a quick catch up, I was able to just hand over hand. They could try one out. We got a mirror, we got a measuring tape, everything that you need. And then you can actually fit [00:54:00] it on yourself. And then they get away with a brand new one completely. So again, it's just a really helpful, practical thing that can help young people out something really simple. But it makes a lot of difference. Like 50 bucks when you're under. Like when you're a youth is huge amounts of money, not to mention you, the credit card and stuff, and also randomly getting packages at your door. And you kind of don't want to tell your parents what it is any further questions on the exchange in terms [00:54:30] of your plans, like that idea that, um, that's pretty much just came from a conversation with given that I had over dinner and I transformed. Is there somewhere we could, like, get some communication going? Because, like some very odd reason, Like about a year ago, I acquired a whole wardrobe of mail, clothes and fashion accessories. Um, just sort of magically appeared there one day that weren't being used. So, um, and I didn't want to give them to the Salvation Army. So off you [00:55:00] you can. So So the best way to contact me through this is I set up a Gmail account, which is just all one word Wellington binder exchange dot at Sorry. Wellington Binder exchange at gmail dot com Um, I'm just not sure about how much space we have. Like, you know, you can look at stuff and these sorts of sizes and then you could, like, have a list and people go, Oh, wow, yeah, I think everybody is really good because we also do. We have done trips through transform that [00:55:30] they can just take up so much space. That's something else. We could do like externally. Definitely, we could have. Like, um, maybe like a day, this is this is another thing. Because when I was in the UK, um, the LGBT Centre in street in Edinburgh, they had, uh, like, some fair, and with that, they had, like, a massive clothing exchange. So we're we're basically transforming and transmitting spot close, so [00:56:00] that could be Could be something. Another thing that could happen, um, as an event at some stage. But I think I think it's a really good idea. Yeah, I know how to tie a tie, but quite well, actually. But, um, you know, I don't have the reverse skills so we can exchange skills as well that that could be something that is put in the pipeline to do. Yeah, because, um, there was a clothing. Um, I. I did have that idea, um, about last year and we ended up having heaps and heaps of clothes that were [00:56:30] put on sale at out in the park. But unfortunately, our park got cancelled, and then we just ended up having heaps and heaps of clothes. Um, because I never followed through on it, but it is It is something that we I reckon if we create a natural event where people just have like, a clothing swap would be a really good idea. Yeah, Yeah, and just kind of get it. Especially because I think that a generational thing with trans people is really important as well. Um, he supposed to dry it off as well? Yeah. [00:57:00] Cool. Awesome. Thank you so much to everyone who's, um, given a bit of a rundown of the projects. And as I said, pretty much all the projects are run by the people who are in this room, give or take. And, um, a lot of it is is initiated by young people like this would be a really cool idea. How can we make this happen? And I think the whole point about our spaces was to have an overarching organisation that can take care of the boring stuff. Get all of that done. So So we can allow young people to be able to do the things [00:57:30] that they need to do to be able to improve their communities. So, um so, yeah, so we're really glad to be able to do that. Um, what I'm gonna do is just going to finish up really soon. Um, except for Kathleen would like to speak. Please, go on. If I wanted to have, like, a really good lunch in a couple of weeks, like, where would I get one? Do you reckon? I just feel like I know. Yeah. Can you tell us just a little bit about that? There's a really [00:58:00] good lunch that you can get on Sunday May the 29th. And it's an event called Febru Lunch 2016 to distinguish it from one that was in 2013. And, um, what we're doing is is, um, we're taking over a restaurant called on the waterfront. Uh, there's space for about 100 people there, and, um, we're having the lunch. But we've also got people who are coming to entertain, [00:58:30] and we've got this amazing raffle happening as well. So the lunch itself is $35 for an adult or $15 for, um uh, Children under 13 or under. And, um, you can buy tickets for that by emailing me if you have. If you're on Facebook, you look up. Febru lunch 2016. It's got all the details if you're not on Facebook? Um, I don't know. What should I do? Speak to speak [00:59:00] to someone? Speak to someone I don't know how to deal with the outside of Facebook stuff. Um, so it there or not. Uh, but last time we raised $3000 which was really awesome. Um, this time we might not hit that mark, but we're definitely gonna try. And, um, yeah, you're everyone's invited to come along if you want to buy a ticket. So the last time funded our entire move into the, um we funded the whole [00:59:30] office. Everything. We got a new computer. We got loads of cool, like furniture donated, like we can show people the office afterwards. You're welcome to come and have a look. Um, funded it entirely, And it was just so shocking because we were like, Oh, this will be a good like, like, starting point, and then you can continue the front. Not all in one night. It was beautiful. We were crying. We cried a lot, actually. Now I remember it. Yeah, it was beautiful night. We were crying and stunning. Yes, Um, [01:00:00] really great event would recommend good food, and they and just really acknowledging and thanking Jack and all the people who contribute to, um to a who, you know, youth group is probably not gonna be, You know, their thing anymore. But, um, they're really wanting to give back to the younger communities. And we I don't think that, actually, schools that would exist at all or outer spaces would exist at all. We are not for the support of the older generation, so we really do appreciate it and and thank people for that. So thank [01:00:30] you. Awesome. So we're just gonna finish up now. Thank you, everyone. Oh, talking about fundraising. Um, Sarah and myself and a couple of other people We're fundraising to send our wonderful friend Bella Simpson to the World Conference in Bangkok November this year. So we've already had one event. Um, and if we if we can [01:01:00] raise more money, then we'll send more people. But, you know, if you see any events on Facebook, whether you want to attend or not, um, Conrad came to our our one last weekend. It was fabulous, wasn't it? Um, but it's I think the, uh So it's been the the committee, the people who organised the, um, Oceana [01:01:30] conference that was held at Otago University in, um, march this year. We feel really strongly that, you know, Bella goes and and represents us because she's been so involved with working with queer youth in Wellington and worked so hard. And, um, yeah, we just want to have a youth voice over there representing or for for New Zealand. Um, and hopefully we'll [01:02:00] get one or two other bodies as well, So Oh, yeah. And Jim was there as well. So yeah, last weekend, we had, uh, a tour around Des and John's Garden and, um, afternoon tea and we hope to organise some more events as well we saw was a transit. Yes, but how do we get money out of that for? I'll work on something. We get the evil capitalists together. No. [01:02:30] And, hey, this is this is actually an opportunity for you to meet other people and to be able to discuss what other projects are gonna be really cool. And outer spaces offers a handful of those. And there's lots of other amazing things that already happen and are going to happen in the future. So we do really, and We just want to know how we can support that in the best way. Are there any final questions before moving into kind of some nice clothing? No. Um, we will be milling around for a little bit, So feel free to come and talk [01:03:00] to somebody individually, if you would like to know more from them. Um, cable, um is the, um, chair of, um, outer spaces. And I'm just gonna hand it over to you to maybe just give some final words about stuff, any final information and maybe some final thank you or anything? Yeah. So I'm really appreciative of you. All. Stayed full time. Well done. I didn't see anyone except Kirsten leave. We'll talk to her about it like No. Um, yeah, this [01:03:30] was really cool. I'm really glad that we got a decent number. I saw it being posted everywhere on Facebook, so that was really amazing. Hopefully we'll be having these quite regularly as we begin to grow. Um, Outer spaces has some really amazing plans. I get quite overwhelmed. I get really into one thing, and then I'll be like, What about this thing? And then I'm jumping around, and then nothing gets done. Um, it's too much. And so, Yeah, we've got so many beautiful plans. And so I'm really excited for where we're going as a collective. Um, and I'm really stoked that binder exchanges [01:04:00] come on board as well. And we like we hope to be able to create an organisation where other people can have are inspired by something and would like to come on board with us and just help us grow. Um, and maybe you people are the people that will do that. Um, so we'll be hanging around if you're interested in volunteering. You want to find out more information? Um, maybe we'll go open up the office as well. Um, and some people can take you through there. You can check out a little library. Some of the youths art, um, a bin that we need to empty the bowl of lollies. There's [01:04:30] all sorts in there. Um, you can check out the binder exchange. Uh, thank you so much. It's an awful night out there. I don't really wanna leave. Um, there's so much food. Please eat it. And thank you. I love all of you. Yes, thank you again. Honestly, as we've said before schools out and outer spaces, would it be anything without a community that is around it and constantly supporting it? And I guess even if you come away from this being like, Oh, yeah, no, I'm not really keen on, you know, volunteering. I don't have any [01:05:00] time, Whatever. It's OK if we're really interested in building relationships with people and that's everyone in this room, and that's people beyond this room. Um, we I guess we just want to be able to have a way that we can be in conversation and keep talking with members of the community to be able to do this job. Really Well, um, finally just want to, um, thank, um, everyone here who's helped, um, or who's helped so far to get to this point? Really, it's been, I think, you know, a a lot of work to be able to, um, make the move to come [01:05:30] here and as um as was mentioned, you know, the young people that we are working with, you know, they have a lot of stuff on their plate, and we really want to be able to make sure that if there's one thing or a couple of things that we can help with. Then that's what we can do to make that, um, that plate a little less full. Although that's a weird analogy, because who doesn't want a full plate anyway? Um, moving on. I just also want to thank everybody who's helped out in, um, the kitchen, Um, and to our board members who are here and, yeah, just all of you for really expressing [01:06:00] an interest in this and taking the time out of your Thursday evening to come along and to learn a little bit more. Um, if you'd like to find out more information, ask us if you'd like to get involved in volunteering. Cable is the person to go and speak to, and we can give you more information there. So just like to finish up by saying, um, yeah, we're really thankful for everyone being able to be here tonight. We're thankful to those who have come before us and created the path that we can then keep picking [01:06:30] up and travelling forward on. Um, we're thankful to our older generations, and we're thankful to all the young people who have the faith and trust in us to actually enter a room and spend time with us and accept all the wonderful things that we want to do for them. They're amazing. Um, thank you all, and just gonna finish up with closing. And, um and please help yourself to the rest of the food and feel free to chat and mingle, and yeah, and just, I guess, celebrate what? The awesome stuff that we've been able to, um do tonight. Cool. Thank you, everyone.

IRN: 1026
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/reflecting_on_hlr30_hands_on.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004452
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089746
TITLE: Reflecting on HLR30 Hands On
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Creek
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Creek; Dunedin; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Jac Lynch; Māori; Pakeha; Pasifika; Sian Torrington; Thistle Hall; Wellington; abuse; activism; ancestors; bisexual; compassion; facebook. com; gay; grief; homosexual law reform; intergenerational; internet; language; laundry; lesbian; lesbian separatism; massage; public display of affection (PDA); solidarity; survivor; transgender; trust; veteran; volunteer
DATE: 4 May 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Creek reflects on HLR30 Hands On - a massage event for 'activists, survivors and veterans' of homosexual law reform in Aotearoa New Zealand.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So HLR 30 hands on was the HLR 30 bit stands for homosexual law reform. 30th anniversary and hands on, uh, refers to massage and body work. Um, such as, like therapeutic relaxation, massage and deep tissue massage through the sort of craniosacral therapy and aromatherapy. And we I got together a group of volunteers seven volunteers [00:00:30] to, But there was a big, uh, many more volunteers than that. But those were the actual massage and body work practitioners with seven of us, um, to offer free massage and body work treatments to the veterans or or survivors of homosexual law Reform, which took place, was a campaign and was passed into law 30 years ago this year. So it was in 1986 and, [00:01:00] uh, it was held at a community hall, Thistle hall. And, um, we set up, we had four tables or screened off with multiple shower curtains. Um, and, uh, yeah, we we took bookings and people came in from that era. Um, from 1986 came in and received free treatments from us. So how hard was it to find recipients of massage? You know, you're using words like, um, kind of veterans and survivors. How How [00:01:30] hard was it to get people in it? It was hard to persuade people. And, uh yeah, those listening who have not heard my initial interview with Gareth. Gareth actually asked me back then what do you think about this term activist? Well, the term activists actually proved to be kind of problematic for people where a lot of people would say to me, Oh, I, I didn't actually do much. You know, I, I don't think of myself as an activist or or whatever. Um, so there was that element [00:02:00] and then there was also, um It just became apparent, the more I sort of read about 1986 or the early eighties as well as the 19 seventies as well, Because the campaign, I guess, had been going on for some time. Um, that that the word of survival was more appropriate anyway because of the amount of abuse that people um suffered. And it kind of became yeah, obvious to me that rather than implying that people had to have done [00:02:30] something specific or feel that they had done something useful or whatever towards that campaign, that it would be better to say, like your survival and your suffering is really what we're, um, honouring here. So that's why yeah, we use those words. But that wasn't the question. The question was, how hard was it to get people to come? Well, we got, um, we had we were We did the event over two days, a Saturday and a Sunday, [00:03:00] and that was a total of 11 hours. And in that time, we did gave treatments, full body treatments. So this sort of 90 minute treatments to 17 people who booked for the full body and then another 10 or so dropped in and had drop in sort of treatments, which we also offered That might just be head, neck and shoulders on a on a seat or a foot massage on a seat. And we also had one table going. That was, um, like you could drop in for a clothed, [00:03:30] 20 minute body massage. So just sort of a shorter, less intensive kind of a treatment. Um and so yeah, I guess around about around about 30 or so people from that era, um, were persuaded to come in the end, which was I. I was pleased with that number and in terms of how many volunteers we had practising and what they like to give a 90 minute massage is kind of quite it takes a little bit of a toll on your body. You need to have rest. And, [00:04:00] um so it was good, because, I mean, we didn't overwork. They were not overworked. It was not so strenuous that yeah, they didn't. The volunteers themselves also found it rewarding rather than strenuous. Um, and yeah. Hard to persuade people. Yes, it was. Yes, indeed. People had to kind of, um, get asked a number of times from various channels or have the have the sort of invitation put in front of them through, you know, like Facebook or email [00:04:30] or verbally. And until they decided that it was a good idea. And it was like walking a fine balance because you don't want to be coercing people into, um, receiving a a body treatment. That's weird and creepy. Um, so we definitely didn't push that, But people just kind of, um it was sort of like accepting a nice thing for themselves, And that's quite hard for people, [00:05:00] maybe particularly New Zealanders who are quite reticent or maybe particularly queer people who are quite may have lower self esteem. Maybe, um, I don't know, but anyway, yeah, I think it was meaningful for those who did come. Yeah, and could you characterise the the 30 that did attend with the kind of common traits? Uh, no, there was. There was quite a range. We Yeah, we had, um we had older, [00:05:30] older gay men. Older, bisexual men. Uh, trans women. Um um lesbian women, bisexual woman. Um, pakeha, Maori Pacific people. Um, so quite a good spectrum, I guess of of our communities and kind of quite a good age range as well, Like, we would have had some people who were, quite, I think, in the eighties, maybe, and then others who were more like in their [00:06:00] fifties or something like that. Um, so yeah, and And there were and there were, um, in terms of activism, there were some who were quite prominent leaders of the campaign, um, and others who who sort of, um, indicated that they didn't feel that they'd done very much or done enough, But then kind of in the just in the or in the the little anecdotes that they said [00:06:30] clearly were, you know, around at the time and yes, suffered and survived And, um, experienced being queer in the seventies and eighties. So yeah, it was cool. II. I like that. I like the fact that there were, like, very prominent people as well as just the kind of, um I don't know how they would describe themselves, but just, um yeah, it's good to acknowledge people who might be a bit quieter or understated [00:07:00] as well as those who who are our tall poppies, and we don't want to cut down tall poppies. But we also like low hanging poppies, too. What's not to like? Poppies are all great. So, uh, words like, uh, survival surviving. Um, suffering. What were some of the stories that people told you, Are you able to recount some of the things that actually, people went through? Um, [00:07:30] yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but me personally, because I'm actually not much of a talker with people. I'm not very warm and to recruit people to come to this event. I hate that word recruiter so military to to get people to come to this event. I really did rely on some warmer people than myself. Like Sean, um, my partner and Jack Lynch. Um um, I'm I'm I am a trained massage practitioner, but that's a quiet activity. But, um, second hand, I guess anecdotes that I heard just were [00:08:00] things like 11 person said that he the last time he'd had a massage was actually in 1985 or 1986 during an event similar to this one that was held for stress relief and as part of the campaign, Um, so that was cool. Um, we we know that, you know, like the bisexual women, a couple of the bisexual women who came to us. Um, we know that it [00:08:30] was pretty hellish for bisexual people in the in the 19 eighties. They were just sort of attacked from within our own communities. And yeah, to some extent, the whole homosexual law reform campaign was partly a campaign for, um, the legal legitimization of our existence and partly a kind of an internal campaign to an internal campaign [00:09:00] for solidarity with one another. So there were sort of stories from that side of things as well. Um, we know that there were people who were living as gay men at the time who who were, you know, abused and spat at in the street and things like that. And, yeah, pretty pretty yuck stuff for the body to go through, I think. And [00:09:30] how did they respond to the, um, this event? How the messages, Um, some people were, you know, like, sort of floods of tears or or or quite sort of just didn't have words to For what? Just the feeling was, um um and others were more like euphoric. And you do see that in massage people, if if the people the sort of two extremes of response are, like kind of euphoria and kind of bouncing off the walls [00:10:00] and highly energised after a massage and and just sort of quiet and and solemn because something's come up, um, some grief has come up. Um, so that was good. It means things were were working as expected, I suppose. Yeah, Yeah, it was. I mean, it was pretty. It's It's, like over a month ago now, but it was pretty. It was a pretty magical time. There was some kind of heightened [00:10:30] sense of humanity in that hall the whole time. Um We opened it with a with a kind of a A blessing, um, for for us as practitioners, and to to bear in mind our our kind of queer ancestors and and bear in mind what the people had gone through who were coming to us. Um, and that maybe brought a lot of, I don't know, compassion or something up in us. And the people who came to us came with a lot of trust, [00:11:00] obviously, Um, and that was really held very well by the whole, um, the space as well as everyone who was there and so that I think made it quite. I want to say quite a spiritual time for everybody involved, It seemed like, and that was good. You know, we received a lot of positive feedback about it. Yeah, it sounds like an incredibly, um, sharing time. Hm [00:11:30] hm. And, yeah, there was sort of this unanticipated, um, byproduct of of the consequence of holding the event was that you would you would overhear the the the practitioners talking with the their elders. Um, and that they would like it was an exchange. There was dialogue. It wasn't just monologue and and listening it was I would [00:12:00] over here, Um, you know, like a a young a young gay male was volunteering as a head doing head, neck and shoulders, um, massage treatments for the drop in kind of part of it. And And I was behind the curtain, massaging someone on the table. But I just overheard this discussion between, um a a quite a quite well known lesbian separatist kind of a person. She's a strong leader [00:12:30] of our community, and, um and she received a head, neck and shoulders massage from this very young gay man, and it was just a really beautiful open conversation between them. She asked him about his life, and he asked her about her life, and she afterwards definitely expressed quite a bit of a surprise that but she said she said that she she never thought she would let a young man fondle her like that, but she feels quite changed. It's quite it's been quite a quite a change for her, [00:13:00] and quite, um, um, it was It's not an expression that she's changing her sexuality, just that she had had this, like a actual human interaction with I don't know. Perhaps someone she might previously have perceived of as the enemy or something. I don't know, but yeah, it was just It was cool. It was a It was an intergenerational. And it was cool to to here. Yeah. And what about the volunteers? Um, how did you go about finding them? Um, what did I do? [00:13:30] We had I had I have a website and the and, um, I got because I'm not on Facebook, but I got people to share links. Um, links as I put them up on on that website to encourage people to, um to volunteer and just put the word out that this event was happening. And it was quite easy in a way to to get people to do so because, I don't know, there just was a lot of motivation, um, among [00:14:00] queer trained, um, practitioners to to participate in this, they want they had a drive and an interested in giving something back to their elders. They definitely had an awareness of the fact that society, um, has changed for, um LGBT T I people. Now it's still not perfect, but I believe it is. Is it easier now? I think it's [00:14:30] easier now. Yeah, it definitely is. You can have a passion in the street with your partner. You didn't used to be able to do that. Really? Um um there was a contact form on the website, and, um, lots of people filled that out. Um, one just from out of the blue, who I didn't even know from Dunedin where I'm from filled out the contact form. And I said, OK, ok, let's Let's bring you up. Um, for it. He was really enthusiastic and great [00:15:00] about that. Um, another person from Dunedin who I did know from the same school that I went to, um, like, the same massage college. I just phoned her up and asked her if she would be interested. Do I phone her? I texted her. Anyway, she came up, um, and yeah, another one came down from Auckland. She she just saw, I think, a link on Facebook, and she's an activist as well. So she was really into it and came [00:15:30] down. Um, yeah, so just I guess you'd call it through Social networks found people. Hm. Yeah. And like originally, there were eight volunteers. Only one sort of proved unreliable or dropped out towards towards the end, Um, like, close to close to the event. So I think that's a really good hit rate. And yeah. Was there anything that surprised you? Uh, mainly that mainly that intergenerational [00:16:00] conversation thing. Just I mean, it's it's silly that it did surprise me. It just I hadn't I hadn't thought about that. I just thought about the physical act of of giving massage and body work to people as a as a gift. Um, but yeah, the the discussions that took place, I think they were really nourishing for people from both sides, both the volunteers and the guests. And, I don't know, maybe it was a little bit surprising how smoothly [00:16:30] it went. You kind of, um maybe because because project management involves thinking in the future a lot and you have to plan for contingency like you do contingency planning. So you have to plan for everything that could go wrong and then head that off with other backup plans and things like that. And so that means you are kind of when you're thinking when you're imagining it before it's happened. You are thinking about everything that could go wrong and So then when When nothing really did very major [00:17:00] go wrong. That was quite surprising. So what are the kind of calamities that you were kind of, um, thinking that might happen? Um, I guess people not showing up or, um, like the the drop in component of it. Nobody turning up or, um, And when I say people not turning up like people who had made bookings, not turning up as well as the volunteers not turning up. Um, I guess not the like. There was this massive laundry operation [00:17:30] going on behind or in in tandem with this event because there's a laundromat directly across the road from the hall. So we had towels and cycle over the road and then being brought back, being dried and being brought back. Um and I guess, like, what if we didn't have enough towels and then someone came for the booking and I'm like, I'm sorry, we don't have We don't have the towels or sheets. We can't do it. Um uh, not like, um I think always. You you you know, you've got to look after your volunteers, and you've got to look after [00:18:00] them really well, because otherwise you'll have rebellion. We could have upset or offended somebody and had, you know, a big shit fight. Because that's what happens in our community. Sometimes. Yeah. So lots of things could have gone wrong. And they mostly did not. Yeah, pretty much didn't go wrong. It was just a really nice time. Bliss blissful kind of. For everyone involved, maybe. Yeah. Mm.

IRN: 1017
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_phil_rogers_and_virginia_parker_bowles.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004440
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089734
TITLE: Phil Rogers and Virginia Parker-Bowles - Out in the Park (2016)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Phil Rogers; Virginia Parker-Bowles
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1950s; 1980s; 2010s; All Blacks; Aotearoa New Zealand; Are You Being Served? (tv); Banana bar; Dorian Society; Germany; Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS); John Inman; Lesbian and Gay Fair; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; New Zealand Police; Out in the Park (Wellington); Out in the Square (Wellington); Phil Rogers; Prostitution Reform Act (2003); Rainbow Wellington; Royal Oak Hotel; Scott Kennedy; Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar; Tavern bar (Royal Oak Hotel); Virginia Parker-Bowles; Waitangi Park; Wellington; adoption; bars; biphobia; blood donation; civil unions; coming out; cruise ship; discrimination; future; homophobia; homosexual law reform; language; marriage equality; media; people of colour; police; prejudice; private schools; public toilet; raids; rugby; scene; sex work; social media; sport; support; television; theatre; trans; transgender; transphobia; victim; violence; visibility
DATE: 12 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, we're at the gay fair today after last year. This is and a big parade I really, really enjoyed. And it's good to see the people out here and from my generation. I come from the fifties and everything happened right up to 1986. It was scary. I played rugby. I was always scared of getting found out and getting crunched in the bottom of a rock. It didn't happen. But today there are gay boys in the All Blacks. I can tell you called BOE voice of Experience. Yeah, I'm excited to be here [00:00:30] as well. Um, lovely, lovely weather, Really cool to see an enormous crowd and neat neat just to see it come to fruition. Really Just thinking of the kind of historic elements. What's your kind of top memory of law reform? Suddenly it was a relief. Um, I was on TV at times in my career, and I was always scared of being found out and then being victimised because of it. I enjoyed playing sport. I didn't want to be victimised there, [00:01:00] but I had to be very, very careful. And I had an interview recently about archives. What was it like what she was saying and one of it was a female asked me, She said, How could she was a nice, good looking man. She said, Can I say that? And I said, Yes, you can, Um, from your day you must have been nice and good looking in How did you get off a rugby field? And you're in the showers that you didn't, uh, get turned on. And I said, Very simple. I don't play rugby like they do today in my day, because today you can get substituted. You don't play a [00:01:30] full 18 minutes, you play 80 minutes of hard rugby. The last thing you're thinking of is a thing between your legs and a shower. I can tell you coming forward to today, Uh, what are some of the things that that kind of still need to be worked on for? For rainbow Communities? We've just been talking, um, a friend of mine and I about, um, how much social there still is and how to how to try and support young people in particular against the effects of [00:02:00] transphobia and homophobia and biphobia. It's It's still an issue. Even though we're first class citizens. It doesn't mean that everything has been resolved. Um, yeah. So we're still quite aware of it as well. And it's really interesting to hear from people who were so fearful of coming out prior to 1986. It's a It's a different thing. We can't imagine what it's like to come out and say I'm a criminal effectively before [00:02:30] that time, But now I I think it's still It's still a really tricky thing, and it's and it's not. Um, it's not easy to come out either. You do still fear a lot of, um, a lot of prejudice and discrimination and and also still physical, um, effects of it, too. Yeah, certainly. We solved a lot of problems of gay marriage, civil union and so on. Even, uh, legalising prostitution's help in another aspect. But, uh, one [00:03:00] of the things that we have never really solved the transgender and intersex issues. They are still on the agenda there. We're still getting over a little bit of our blood donations. Uh, we think we've crossed that hurdle now, um, and the other the other one is Really What? What? You're just talking about the younger people. Um It's still very difficult and you see some of the things in the private schools, what is coming out, and the board of trustees saying these things don't happen and in actual fact, probably their kids. It does and they don't know. And those [00:03:30] things have got to change that. People need support, and it's up to us, some of us older people to try and give that support because we normally have got to be able to get the platform to do it. The younger people, some people are just not listen to them. I think there's a really awesome um, sense, though, of a burgeoning, particularly a burgeoning trans movement that's really visible to just just a wee cisgender person like me. Like it. It's really exciting to see trans people and people of colour as well, really [00:04:00] take a stand and start figuring out how they wanna be, um, in the world and be really, really visible and kind of argy bargy about it. I'm excited by that. I think it's awesome. One thing that that seems to me to have changed a wee bit is is how we kind of identify ourselves. So the language that we use. So can you recall kind of the language that you would use to describe yourself, like way back when and and kind of the words that you'd use Now, some people, one place. Are you gay? And I said, I'm happy. That was why we are getting [00:04:30] around it. Um, I just can't really remember what sometimes speaks. It wasn't a topic that you I I experienced because I never really dressed up or never clapped my hands around and look say, like, John and me and on Are you being served sort of person? But sometimes it was that inside me wanting to get out, But I was too scared to do it. You know? It's, um the thing is, people were punching you. Then they would they would grab you, you know? And I've seen people get hit. I've seen a guy get hit over the head of a bottle because he was just himself and he wasn't in that person's face. [00:05:00] Um, he wasn't threatening that person, and it was quite scary to see and I thought that could happen to me. So I just kept my head down. Basically, How did you meet other gay men around that time. Like how did you know an established community? Well, you did have the gay bar in Wellington. I'm Wellington, and you used to have the, um, coincidentally fell into it, to be honest, uh, the tavern bar in Dixon Street. And you had the, um Oh, what was it called? The other one. Anyway, there's one where the transistors went and and that all [00:05:30] the prostitutes were in selling to the sailors that came. It was at the the Royal Oak, the royal oak. I'm just trying to think of the bar was called, but the tavern bar was the one next to it. And then Mel and Mel took over. Not so much Scottie, the banana bar upstairs. So there was always that gay venue. Ironically, there were two bars in Willis Street that attracted the crowd as well. Um, and because we had television in the up to 1973 the 1975 before a came along. Uh, you did have a lot of, say, theatre community there. [00:06:00] Television started in 1960. The majority of people making programmes come from overseas. And of course, that was from England and a lot of them were gay. Uh, the heads of department and things like that, uh, television was great. It allowed, um, women to break the glass ceiling. And verbally, some of those women were, should I say, not straight. But they managed to keep everything quietly within the thing until till the late seventies. Things come out a bit more, and it's more acceptable to be gay to be on television or [00:06:30] theatre. Um, and that made life a bit simpler for some of them And that that's one thing. The other bars. Um, the other thing was, the club was a secret society, but it wasn't really, um you got invited to join the bar shut at 10 o'clock in my day. So, uh, you wandered down the door and you had a key to get in. You bought tickets down the bottom for the drinks, and we got raided. One night, we got raided because, um, somebody had been on a cruise ship and they had them on those days. [00:07:00] Must have very straight cruise, but, uh, somebody had done a lot of or robberies on the boat, and I suspected from the gay community. So the police were thumped a bit. So they came up and raided the door club and most of us, Uh, shall I say, shut our pants? Um, because we're getting sprung. But the policeman said, No, we're not after you guys, because we know you're in. You're in one place. You're not doing the toilet. You're not offending anybody. You're all grouped together, and, uh, and you don't roll out of your very drunk, which you mustn't have been looking very too much time because some of us did. But, [00:07:30] um, the thing was, they arrested the guy, and sure enough, he was a bad thing to happen. But the police left us alone in that respect, Um, and in a door and moved up to Willis Street. And it became you could take ladies along. There were ladies nights, Um, and then it died away. I can't remember why it died, but it died. And I think what came into vogue more was the gay bar itself. It become more acceptable to go to a gay bar after the law, law reform came through, and people like Scottie held that scene to get [00:08:00] in a big, big way in Wellington. Just finally, um, so we're 30 years post homosexual law reform. What do you think the world is gonna look like in another 30 years time? What? What's your ideal world for 30 years from now? Wow, what a tough question. I think this and then some, I suppose, Um because I, I think that our with our social connectedness enabled through social media platforms, it will only get stronger and stronger. [00:08:30] And I think those, you know, that burgeoning sort of movement that I I can see will will also take on older people as well. And that's growing too. So I think I hope we're just going to be more bolshy because, um, we're gonna be out there and we're not going back into closets. And we've got a lot of wrongs to write. And a lot of, um, of great benefits of working together and, um, and developing a world that we want [00:09:00] to be safe and healthy in too. So yeah, positive future. Well, all I can say is that, uh, 30 years on, um, we've had a lot of change in my lifetime. I. I visited Germany in 1973. The war was up and I never thought in my lifetime that would come down. It came down 16 years later. Um, I went back and grabbed a piece of it. Uh, but, um, it was quite a shock for it to happen. What I think now is people are listening. People up in Parliament are listening. You're getting things. [00:09:30] And I think the transgender issues and that would be more more acceptable. There's adoption. That's another issue that's got to be sorted. I think that will happen. Um, but it doesn't matter. A lot of a lot of talking a lot of chatting. Uh, one thing I'd like to see is a more We're very lucky in New Zealand. Really. Um, we're able to get through these hurdles, and there are countries around the world that aren't I mean, it's pretty pretty awful. So my thing in 30 years is let's hope that these companies, the countries, are doing things like throwing people off buildings and God knows what because of their [00:10:00] sexuality that 30 years on from here, they are at the point where at least where we are now, we've got a really good point, and I think that a has an opportunity to use influence in in those regards as well we should. We should be using our influence within the world. One thing I've got in my and I've got a lot of long stay. Students here are all from overseas. They see in New Zealand, the South Koreans are here. They're seeing what we're saying about North [00:10:30] Korea and that, and I think the answers in those people are recognising that the sky is not going to fall. And if something happens, New Zealand's done it. We should be able to liberalise our country a little bit and it's those people are going to make the change. Not not the parents of them are older.

IRN: 1021
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_peter_and_partner.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004439
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089733
TITLE: Peter and partner - Out in the Park (2016)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; 1980s; 2000s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Destiny Church; Out in the Park (Wellington); Out in the Square (Wellington); Waitangi Park; Wellington; adoption; ageing; bigotry; bullying; cats; civil unions; elder care; elder issues; elders; fairy; harassment; homophobia; homophobic bullying; homosexual law reform; march; marriage; parade; pets; police; queer bashing; rest homes; school; youth
DATE: 12 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Peter and partner reflect on life before homosexual law reform, their civil union and attending Out in the Park.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi. I'm Peter. And I'm at the, uh, out in the park. 30th anniversary. Uh, and, um, it's been great. I really enjoyed it. And it was so nice to have a nice, happy march here compared to what we did 30 years ago. Yeah. What was it like 30 years ago? Oh, it was a bit horrifying. Going up Queen Street in Auckland. We used to live [00:00:30] in Auckland. Um, a lot of, you know, odd looks we got from the so called straight community. Um, much better now, of course. Um but you did feel the intimidation back then. Um, no, I love it. I just love it. What I see here today, yes. What's the thing that stands out for you the most? Um just all the people, the acceptance. And, [00:01:00] um, I think it's just fabulous nowadays. Yeah, no, just good. Um, years ago, when we lived in Auckland, we were harassed in our own home and, uh, you know, things thrown at us, and it was just shocking. But, um um, you carry on Peter. What was I mean, Was that due to, um, law reforming, you know, Or was it prior to law reform? it was prior to law reform. [00:01:30] So you couldn't really do anything because you were doing something illegal. Basically, although the I think the police were pretty understanding anyway. But we, um, had to get over that, I think, um, when I was thinking back 30 years ago walking, marching in Queen Street, there was a lot of, uh, hostile abuse, but nothing as bad as what we experienced [00:02:00] at Parliament when the civil Union bill was going through and we had to face up the Destiny Church there, which was very loud and awful. So it's really nice to be here and feel free and see all the young people who are never going to have to go through what we went through and their happy faces. Yes, it's It's amazing to think about that for a lot of people under 30. Um, it it's very hard to kind [00:02:30] of comprehend what it what What? That was like. Yes. Yes, I will agree. Um, when I came out at the age of 12, it was in about 1967 I suppose, um, very hard at school. Difficult. All through those years, I was, um I was uncoordinated. Very bad at coordination and a bit fairy like, if you know what I mean. So I was [00:03:00] teased a lot at school, and I finally left school at 16 because I was harassed so much. So, um, from then on, I went into a sort of a 17 year, which ended, Um, And then in 1980 I met Peter, and we've been together ever since. And we both had a civil union, Uh, seven years ago. Um, and we're great. We're great. [00:03:30] We wondered if if we should get actually married, so to speak, but, um, we think perhaps not civil unions. Just as good, I think I don't think we're going to adopt kids or anything. Children, I should say. Not kids. No, just pets. How many pets have you got? Uh, just the one cat who was a, uh, a abandoned, abused cat. So she took a while [00:04:00] to decide she would accept us, but she definitely wanted to live on the property. So first thing she do is jump on his knee, and she's been there ever since. That's very sweet. What What's her name? A little girl. We We didn't know whether she had another name. So we were just calling her the little girl and she got used to it. So she's a little girl, so that's our our child. But over the years I think we've been [00:04:30] We entered a lot of younger people coming through, and, um, I guess the some still experience some of the things that we did. It's not totally clear of the woods yet for that sort of thing. It's still bashing and things that goes on, but by and large, it's much safer for gay people than it was before. What do you think some of the issues are nowadays facing kind of rainbow communities? Uh, I think there's [00:05:00] a lot of still a lot of bigotry, and, um uh, people who have fears about themselves and sort of use bullying other people who are scared will try and intimidate others and do things, And I think those people sort of have to be reached out to and be comfortable who they are. I think it probably takes generations and generations for it to really clear up. [00:05:30] But what happened in the last 30 years is good and, you know, maybe in the next 10 or 20 years, it will be totally good. And I want to ask you in 30 years time, What would be your kind of ideal world? What? What? Just to be together? I'm happy to by the pool and the rest home. Why wait to the rest home with some nice gay nurses to look after us? I. I imagine that must be quite I mean, that that is an issue, [00:06:00] isn't it kind of ageing as that would happen? I had my mother in a rest home and I thought, God, there's no way I would be there. If it's like this, if you're a little bit different or anything, it would be awful. So I suppose things will change in that way, and they'll be, you know, good places for elder gays to go. Uh, and I'm sure, uh, gay community [00:06:30] people are very supportive of their own, so that would be good. But I wouldn't have liked to have been a resident, a gay resident, and the rest time my mom was there, So yeah, that's the next big thing because there's a lot of us ageing gay people and very, you know, in the next 10 or 20 years, we will be headed in that direction, so we need a safe environment and one where we can be [00:07:00] happy and accepted and be ourselves.

IRN: 1019
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_nathan_ross.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004437
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089731
TITLE: Nathan Ross - Out in the Park (2016)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Nathan Ross
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Human Rights Act (1993); Nathan Ross; Out in the Park (Wellington); Out in the Square (Wellington); Proud 2016 (Wellington); Sydney; Waitangi Park; Wellington; acceptance; biphobia; bisexual; bisexual erasure; bullying; climate change; clothing; discrimination; diversity; double life; employment; expression; fear; gay; gender-neutral; gender-neutral toilets; genderqueer; homophobia; homophobic bullying; homosexual law reform; human rights; invisibility; judgement; language; law; makeup; marriage; mental health; misogyny; queer; racism; research; safe space; school; straight; transgender; transphobia; work
DATE: 12 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Nathan talks about creating safe spaces, bisexual erasure and double lives.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Nathan Ross, and I'm here. Um, because I feel safe amongst this group of people. Yeah. Nathan, I first encountered you at the, uh, human rights conference, Uh, yesterday and the day before. Tell me, how was that? Oh, it was very good. It was very interesting. Um, I gave a brief session on, um, on bisexuality and the law and some of the legal issues that come up for bisexual people around the world and the complete lack of research in New Zealand. Um, [00:00:30] and also attended some very interesting sessions about, um, climate change and the vulnerability of queer people in, uh, areas affected by sort of unnatural disasters, as I call them. So, yeah, overall, it's very interesting. Yeah, very, very interesting to hear How, um, particularly how members of our community in in poorer countries, where these kind of environmental disasters, um, how they how exposed? They leave people, particularly members of the trans community. You said just before about [00:01:00] being in a safe space. And I'm just wondering, can you talk a wee bit more about that? I mean, what is a safe space and and how do we How do we make it safe. Sure. Well, um OK, so I Well, just a bit of background. I moved here. I moved to New Zealand in 2004 from Australia, and, um, and have sort of forged Wellington to be a safe space. I didn't feel emotionally safe, uh, in with my family in Sydney. And, um and so where you can just [00:01:30] express yourself without fear of something as minor, I guess, as as judgement or or, you know, more more aggressive than that. Potentially. So the fact that we can just hang out together and people can dress wild, wear wild makeup, whatever, and just be relaxed and happy and enjoy themselves. We don't that that's not a normal thing. Day to day, walking down Lampton key to work. You know, it's not a normal thing. So, um, the fact that we have [00:02:00] events like this is really important. One of the things that was mentioned at the conference was, um uh, particularly the the invisibility of of, uh, bisexuals in the rainbow community. And, um, there were some points made about how rainbow communities can make it safer for, um, Bisexuals. Can you talk about that? Yeah, Well, I think, um, that so from within the community that stems from so just to give you a couple of my own experiences, So I had. So I'm now married to a woman and, uh, previous, [00:02:30] uh, boyfriend had told me that No, you're not bisexual. You're just too scared of coming out. So well. Imagine I told you you weren't gay, you know, And that's just not OK. Don't tell me what I am and what I'm not And don't make judgments. And, um and that kind of stuff happens. And, uh, one of my friends in a bisexual social group here in Wellington tells the story that during the, um development of the Human Rights Act, which prohibits discrimination against, um, members of the queer community that [00:03:00] they had to fight to include the word bisexual that gay and lesbian people specifically fought to exclude the word bisexual. And when there was a a fundraiser for the campaign a dance, somebody actually put a sign on the door to say fuck off bisexuals. So now that was back in the early nineties. But that's the kind of stuff that we that we have experienced, and it's bloody awful, because when you can't be queer in the straight world and then you can't be queer in the Queer World, you're left in this kind of, um, [00:03:30] you know, purgatory and and hence all the statistics. All the mental health statistics are worth worse for bisexual people than for gays and lesbians. And it certainly that's not a statistic that I want, and I don't wanna brag about it, But it's just about just accepting. When we say we're bisexual, that's what we are. And that's awesome. And so is being gay, and so is being straight. It's all awesome. Just let people be So, um so yes, So it's just about accepting when we say that that's the truth. Where do you think that discrimination comes from? [00:04:00] So, uh, actually, I just read a journal article about this just a few days ago. And, um, from an academic in the United States Kenshi who says that, um, the incentives for, uh, heterosexual and homosexual people to erase bisexuality is simple things like, um, your sexuality can't be simply defined by the person you're with, and that just creates a confusion that people just don't want. Um, and I think there's something simple, You [00:04:30] know, people like things to be black and white and so gay and straight is kind of easy to get your head around. Whereas if someone flips back and forth or whatever, uh, that that messes with that nice simplicity. Um and so I mean, I don't know. I haven't read any psychological research or anything like that to say exactly why people respond that way. I think everyone just wants things to be as simple as possible. But actually, when you say I can be attracted to two or more genders, that's actually a really easy sentence, and people can [00:05:00] get their heads around it. They just need to 30 years since homosexual law reform this year. What do you think we are going to be like in 30 years time? What's your kind of picture of an ideal world? Um well, look, I mean, just the news last week, maybe last week or the week before about, um, a couple of high schools in Wellington now having non gendered toilets. I mean, how good is this? I couldn't have imagined that five years ago. This is phenomenal. I think the main where in terms of my own, so that [00:05:30] that's just an indicator of some of the progress and how rapid things are all of a sudden, at least in New Zealand, I mean, certainly different stories for our friends in the Pacific and so on. Um but I guess, um, where I would like to see things in 30 years. So I'm you know, this is where I am and I'm out, and I'm here with makeup and nail polish and really enjoying myself. But I've never done that at work. Nobody at work knows who I am. And so it's just the fact that you could come out without being concerned that you would be subconsciously overlooked for promotions. [00:06:00] You know, just the fact that you can just be and then even more importantly than for us adults, you know, when I think back to the horrendous experiences I had right throughout primary and high school to see these young these groups of young people targeting schools if we can, you know, really get messages, especially to boys, I have to say, um, to stop homophobia, biphobia, transphobia, etcetera, um, targeting schools and and getting past that well and also all Those messages also relate [00:06:30] to things like misogyny as, well, racism. But if we can, you know, really change cultures within schools and stop bullying, that would be an ideal outcome in 30 years, because that translates right through to people's adulthood. You know, if you've got those good values as a as a 13 year old, then you're gonna have those values as a 30 year old and a 60 year old. So, um, so I'd really like to see in 30 years time that bullying of queers in schools is a thing of a horrible past. Gotta say that. That kind of, um, nobody at work knows who I am. [00:07:00] I mean, how how do you navigate that? That must be That must be very tricky. Yeah, you live a sort of double life. And funnily enough, um, at the conference at the proud conference, uh, yesterday I turned a corner and I bumped into someone from work, and we both had for about half a second. We both had a look of terror on our face, and then both just kind of like burst into these giant smiles. I was like, Oh my God, fantastic. There's somebody I know. And, um but yeah, I mean, it's a double life. I mean, so, for [00:07:30] example, so for for today I went and had a manicure and I had beautiful purple nails. And I've been making jokes about the fact that Sunday night will be removing the adornments of queerness and and looking normal again for Monday morning. And it's kind of OK, and it's kind of depressing and, um, but I just I sort of still feel like I have to lead a double life. And, um, maybe my fear is not well placed. Maybe it's unfair because I know there are other out people [00:08:00] at work. Um, but there's something kind of acceptable about respectable gay white men who wear a lovely suit to work and just kind of there's There's something that straight people find acceptable to a certain degree, uh, not to not to dismiss any issues that they have, but but to be gender, queer and bisexual. That's that's a whole different world for a lot of straight people. That's something that I don't think that they can cope with to the same degree. [00:08:30] So, yes, I just have to lead a double life.

IRN: 1020
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_kassie_hartendorp.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004436
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089730
TITLE: Kassie Hartendorp - Out in the Park (2016)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Kassie Hartendorp
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Box Oceania; Homisexual (Box Oceania); Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Kassie Hartendorp; Māori; Out in the Park (Wellington); Out in the Square (Wellington); Pasifika; Samoa; Shirts and Skirts (Box Oceania); Waitangi Park; Wellington; aroha; barriers; colonisation; community; egalitarianism; equality; exclusion; family; funding; fundraising; gender identity; homosexual law reform; hui; indigenous peoples; intersex; labels; language; love; marginalisation; over the rainbow; people of colour; poverty; queer; racism; redistribution of resource; resource; takatāpui; tangata whenua; trans; transgender; whānau; youth; youth work
DATE: 12 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Kassie talks about BOX Oceania and visions of the future.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um, my name is Cassie Harden, and I'm here with box Oceania, and the day so far has been really amazing. It's sunny and it's beautiful. There's lots of people here, and we're having an awesome time box. Oceania. What's what? What is that box? Oceania is, um, a collective of people who are queer, trans intersex, indigenous people of colour. Um who, um, live and love beyond and over the rainbow. How did it start? Um, basically, it started, um, from a group of wahine based in Wellington. [00:00:30] Who, um who noticed that the environment within the I guess the gay or the queer scene within Wellington was quite, um, white dominated. So the idea was that, um the group wanted to provide more events to be able to have a space where people of colour and, um particularly Maori and Pacifica, but it's open to anyone who is a person of colour could come together, and I guess, find a little bit of, um, family really more than anything else. Um And so it started off with events such as homosexual um, shirts and skirts, which were [00:01:00] fundraisers for other organisations, including for, um Samoa. Um and we Yeah. Just held events and be able to build more of a profile for, um, young people who are going through. Yeah. How hard is it to kind of get funding and get kind of resources? I think it's hard for anyone at the moment to be able to get any kind of funding. A lot of it relies on fundraising. And I think that, um, we're really lucky, because we, you know, we do have a presence within the community. [00:01:30] At the moment we're fundraising. Um, we've managed to do things like, um, take vans of of young people up to up in Auckland, um, which we fund raised, or, um, other organisations were able to help us out. So yeah, we if if we need to find the money there, where there's a will, there's a way. But yes, there's not that much out for anyone at the moment. I don't think so. It's not unique to us. If you had all the money in the world, what would be the kind of things that you would be going for all of the money in the world? Well, I guess, [00:02:00] um, we'd be looking at redistributing that money I think that the wrong people will have the all the resources and wealth at the moment. And we want to be saying, actually we need to be taking care of our families and our, um and our people first and foremost. So it's really hard to say exactly what we we would do with that. I think it would be about distributing it back and making sure that people can live and love exactly how how they want to be doing. Really? Yeah. So is there quite a lot of hardship in in Rainbow Communities? At the moment, I would say there is I mean, I'm a youth [00:02:30] worker and I work with young people, mostly, and, um, particularly young, transgender people. It's It's very difficult to be able to, um, live as people want to live. There's a lot of barriers in place for people being able to, um yeah, be as they are basically, and particularly for um, our group in Ocean. We try to create a welcoming space because we acknowledge that a lot of the young people or the people that we work with, it's not just homophobia transphobia, but it's also racism and it's colonisation that has had lasting impacts on [00:03:00] our communities and is often unseen or invisible within kind of mainstream events. So we're here to kind of put that on the agenda where we can, Why do you why do you think it is kind of invisible at the moment? For a lot of people, that's a really, really big question. I think that, I mean, due to colonisation, I think that a lot of, um particularly Maori and Pacific voices are are just not given a platform in the same way. We have inherited a lot of our structures and our ideas about gender and sexuality from a European perspective, [00:03:30] and it absolutely works for a lot of people that's really important. But also we really want to be able to have the time and space to be I to say Actually, what does being gay, what does being Trans all of these things, These are these are English words that we've got what, what does that framework look like for us of people of of the Pacific? Um, and often there's not as much time and space to a vote to be able to do that. So, um, for English words. We have gay, transsexual, bisexual, bisexual and as a Maori. [00:04:00] The main word that I know is. And so, yes, it covers a lot of different things. But I think that, you know, first and foremost, we need to be providing a place for and people of the Pacific to be able to define ourselves and work out who we are. Um, because we have been here for centuries and it's Yeah, it's really important. And I guess using words like gay can actually be so exclusionary, can't it? Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's one of the things that I think a lot of, um, Rainbow communities, for lack of a better word, are focusing on [00:04:30] a lot more at the moment. It's, um I think a lot of the time we have to band together under, um, under common terms, but also acknowledging, I guess you know the differences and the huge amount of, um specific. And, um, and those that those umbrella definitions, right? Yeah. So, just personally, what does today mean to you being out here? Um, it's I think it's really important that we're able to be here in a place that there are so many [00:05:00] other people I think is still as a young person. It's amazing to be able to be. It's It's an event that when you look around, there's so many people like us, which is really important and also that it's OK for allies to come along and to support. And it's not. Nobody has to self identify at the gate of the park. It's just people to be able to come together and show some show some love to, um towards each other into the So I think it's really important. I think one of the other things is that, you know, um, just I like I. I think [00:05:30] as as as as Maori and Pacific peoples being able to have, like a strong presence here is really meaningful as well. And um, it's yeah, it's not. It hasn't always been a really, really strong presence, and particularly with our younger people. But we're excited to be to be doing that here today. Just thinking 30 years time in 30 years time. Um, what's your kind of view of an ideal world? What? What would you like New Zealand? A. To be like [00:06:00] I? I mean, to me personally, I think that, you know, we need to move to a different system that places people before profit. I think that's really essential. And what has always happened is that people who are minorities gay, trans or you know, whoever is in a minority grouping is always at the bottom of the heap. And I'd like to see a world where we don't repeat the the same mistakes. I'm sick of seeing the social hierarchy that places some people above others, and I'm sick of people actually still living in poverty. It shouldn't be so hard for [00:06:30] transgender people to be able to find jobs. We shouldn't have had to have gone through all of this 30 years ago just to be able to, like decriminalise our sexuality that we've we've always known about. It's always existed, you know, we've had these laws placed on us that that are not that are not right. So I think I'd like to see us move towards a genuinely more egalitarian society that again, it's not about the prophet, it's about the people it's about. It's about, it's yeah, it's, I think it's all of that, and when we can fight all [00:07:00] of that together, we don't leave anyone behind anymore.

IRN: 1016
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_kaleb.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004435
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089729
TITLE: Kaleb - Out in the Park (2016)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Kaleb
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2000s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Evolve Wellington Youth Service; Givealittle. co. nz; Kaleb; Naming New Zealand; Out in the Park (Wellington); Out in the Square (Wellington); Outerspaces (Wellington); School's Out (Lower Hutt); School's Out (Wellington); Tranzform (Wellington); Waitangi Park; Wellington; advertising; asexual; emergency housing; facebook. com; faith-based school; fear; funding; fundraising; gay; gender neutral; homosexual law reform; identity; identity documents; internet; lesbian; media; pansexual; parents; peer support; queer; queer straight alliance (QSA); safe house; safe space; school; single sex schools; social media; support; transport; youth; youth group
DATE: 12 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Kaleb talks about School's Out, OuterSpaces, Tranzform and Naming New Zealand.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hey, um, my name is Caleb. I work for schools out, um, which is a subgroup of outer spaces. And today we're here, um, to just raise some money for our organisations. We have four subgroups under outer spaces. We have schools out, which is a queer youth group for, uh, queer and gender non conforming young people between the age of 12 and 18, we have transform, which is for, uh, trans and [00:00:30] gender non conforming. Uh, young people and the age gaps more, Uh, from about 16 to 30. And then we have naming New Zealand, which is a newer group which we put money together to help, uh, people update their identity documents. How easy is it, or how hard is it to get funding? Uh, from what I've found, it's it's been quite [00:01:00] difficult for us. We we really rely on donations. We, uh we have a couple of give a little pages, and we mostly rely on donations of people that already know about the groups, but and actually get our groups out there and get people to find out about us is quite difficult, Which is what makes it so hard to get funding is because people don't know about our groups so well, because we don't [00:01:30] have the money to do any advertising. So if you had all the money in the world, what kind of things would you be doing? Yeah, where do we start? Uh, I. I know one of my dreams is to have a outer spaces house where we have where we have, uh, rooms that, um our young people can come stay overnight if they need to. We have a kitchen. We have an office. We have a youth space that, uh, people can just come and drop in because [00:02:00] at the moment, uh, our office is based at Evolve in Wellington and we have, uh, our groups. How would that evolve? And then we have our other groups out in the heart valley, which we just, um, have at other businesses. So it'd be really great to have one place where everyone can come and feel safe. So I know that that's one of my dreams to have an Outer Spaces house. [00:02:30] Can you talk about some of the hardships? Because I'm I'm guessing, even just, um, getting transport to come to evolve must be an issue for some people. Yeah, well, we have. That's why we have, um, transform. Especially, like is only held at one place, and it's only fortnightly. So that's quite a trouble for a lot of people because they have to wait fortnightly to have that support schools out. We have two groups every week. We have one in the city and one in the hut, [00:03:00] which helps with the transport. Um, one of the biggest issues we have with the group is a lot of young people are being afraid to come to the groups because of because they're in high school, not being out to their parents. So coming along to the group can be very frightening if they can't tell their parents where they are. So that would probably be the hardest thing about our groups. So what role, then? [00:03:30] Does things like, um, social media and Internet have and and, um, at the moment, our social media is not too strong. We have, uh, Facebook groups that the facilitators can, uh, moderate and the young people can come on and ask questions and talk to each other and talk to the and the facilitators can moderate that space And then we also have our public pages that we can let everyone let everyone know what's what's happening. So but at the [00:04:00] moment, yeah, we don't have a lot of resources for media and advertising, and, um, creating a space safe space on the Internet for young people to come and talk outside of group. So this year is the 30th anniversary of homosexual law reform. And way back then there were, um it it seems like there was a limited language in terms of description describing kind of identity. But now there seems to be a whole range of words. Um, can you talk about the the change [00:04:30] in language? And you know what? What are people? What words are people using to describe themselves. Now, Uh, there are so many different just from the time from when I was at high school, which was I'm 24 now. So high school for me was seven years ago, and the change in language in just that short space of time is so, so big and the I don't know the words that we have now, [00:05:00] uh, people seem to the young people seem to be claiming a lot of words back that were used as insults back when I was at high school. So we have gay queer, um, found that lesbians not so well used anymore, But a lot of new terms are coming up like, uh, well, not they're not new terms, but people are just getting to know, [00:05:30] getting to know them better. So, you know, we have words like queer and gender neutral, pansexual asexuals. So many. Like I just off the top of my head. I can't even, like, list them all, but, yeah, there's people were just getting to claim a lot of words and give them their own definition and not letting other people define who they are, which is [00:06:00] really amazing. So what was it like going through high school seven or eight years ago? So So we're talking. What was that? 2010. 2008. 2008. I graduated 2009. Um, so that was seven years ago. Yeah, so I graduate. Graduated 2009. Going through high school for me personally was horrific. Uh, I went to an all girls faith based school, so that was very, very challenging for [00:06:30] however you identify, it's just quite a challenging environment. So, yeah, I can't really put it lightly. It was It was a horrific time. And, uh, I just tried to encourage the young people that I work with now to really speak up about how they feel in their environment and definitely get their voices heard so that they feel comfortable at school. So was there anything [00:07:00] like a queer strait alliance or any? Uh, no, def. Definitely not. Not at my school. Uh, there were There was schools out. I did, uh, schools out was around when I was at high school. I never went because I didn't have any queer friends or anything like that, so Yeah, but no, we definitely didn't have any Q SAS at our school. It was very frowned upon. And so here we are, seven years later, out in the park. Can you describe the day and what it feels like? [00:07:30] I just feel so warmhearted, Really. That's everything is just so running out of words, actually. I mean, you, you you don't need words to describe it. I mean, sometimes things don't have words to describe. Do they? Yeah. No, you're exactly right. Like, I think that's that's how I'm feeling today. I just feel extremely safe. Um, just extremely safe [00:08:00] and warmhearted with the amount of people that are here and supporting. Yeah, What? I plan because I have a.

IRN: 1023
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_franki.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004434
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089728
TITLE: Franki - Out in the Park (2016)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: Aotearoa New Zealand; Out in the Park (Wellington); Out in the Square (Wellington); Pride; Waitangi Park; Wellington; academia; academics; diversity; faggot; friends; gay; gender identity; gender studies; homo couple; homosexual; homosexual law reform; language; lesbian; snapchat. com; word reclamation
DATE: 12 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Franki talks about attending Out in the Park for the first time, gender identity, language and word reclamation.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Frankie, and honestly, it's It's awesome. I've This is my first time coming to an event like this, and I've just found it so a lot more diverse than I thought it would be, You know, like the stores that are here are not just sort of specific to causes that you wouldn't necessarily associate with pride or just being gay. So it's really cool to see all that. So prior to coming here and it's your first time. What did you kind of think it would be? Um, well, you see a lot of stuff online, so you kind of have an expectation anyway. And you see, like a lot of rainbows [00:00:30] and a lot of people just being all like, happy and like, inclusive and gay together. And it is that. But it's just it's It's one thing to see it on, you know, like on a screen, you know, as you scrolling through instagram or Snapchat or whatever. And it's thing to be here and just to see everyone and see just everything for yourself, you know, like there's not just, you know, there's not just like a gay couple there and a lesbian couple there. There's like people with their Children and their dogs. And there's people who are here to represent their businesses because, like, they genuinely care, it's [00:01:00] sort of serene in a way, like, you know, like, you go from out. You know, like, if you're anywhere else, you might necessarily be slightly on edge about the fact that you know, I'm lucky because most people think my girlfriend is a boy, so we don't necessarily get any kind of judgement about being a homosexual couple. But here you're just you're like, hell, yeah, let's be as gay as we can be because we can be, you know? Yeah. Pretty interested that you're using with, like, homosexual and gay. What is this? [00:01:30] The kind of terminology that you'd use to describe yourself and what other kind of words are there out there? Um well, I suppose it's a bit different because I've got, like, an honours degree in gender identity and that sort of thing. Um, I use whatever terms I think I'm comfortable with, So I mean, if somebody else was to say, like myself and my girlfriend are a faggot, if it's my gay little brother saying that that's fine, because I know that he means it out of love. And it's like affection. And there's no negative association there. [00:02:00] But for us, I think we just use any words that are there to describe us because you know what? This is our identity, and I'm happy to be there because I'm happy to be with her. Yeah, and I guess kind of identities change and grow and and yeah, it does. And I think with all the kind of changing identities that are there, it's, I don't know, maybe important, to hold on to the terminology. But also, you know, there's the whole stereotypical cliche. Let's reclaim it. You know, let's reclaim being gay. Let's reclaim being, you [00:02:30] know, like with like Homo couples, you know? And we're just like, you know, we'll honestly sit at home and just be, like, so happy to be lesbian, you know? But it's Yeah. I mean, it's changing, but everything and everyone is changing. And that's just who we are so like in this moment in time, it's fine. So what are some of the, um, things that are happening in New Zealand that need to be changed in terms of Rainbow Rainbow Communities. Well, I think that's tricky to say, because I think everybody's exposure is different and everyone's framework of knowledge is different. Maybe [00:03:00] that's the problem. Maybe it is the problem that there, everything seems, may maybe even too over the top for, you know, like when I first moved to Wellington seven years, nine years ago, when I was first, like kind of coming to the idea like coming to grips with my own identity, I thought it all seemed I felt that I wasn't gay enough to participate. You know what I mean? I don't know if that's if anybody else feels like that, but maybe there's [00:03:30] something there in between. So somebody doesn't have to go there and feel like they have to, you know, go to rallies and go to pride events. But maybe they can just just somewhere where it's just OK to be gay, you know, and just somewhere to just to be exactly exactly so. And of course, society is becoming a lot more inclusive where you can do that a lot more easily especially, you know, with the law reforms and everything like that. But I think that was for me personally, that was my biggest problem. Um and [00:04:00] then kind of, you know, like letting my friends know it was just like, Well, it was easy for me because my friends knew before I did, um, but I Yeah, I, I don't know. I think so. And sometimes it seems really intense. And sometimes it seems like it doesn't touch anybody else that isn't looking for it. So therefore, because they're not looking for it, it just seems like this, like, distant gay thing. And it seems [00:04:30] inaccessible. And so therefore, they are unable to understand that it's just, like just people that love each other. And that's it. Yeah, jumping ahead. 30 years. What is your kind of ideal world? What? What do you think? How? How should New Zealand be in 30 years time in 30 years time? Um wow. How do you I don't know. Like, how do you even fathom something that's so completely ideal? My, the thing that I've always stood by is just like do what [00:05:00] you want as long as you're not hurting yourself or somebody else. And I think that that should go for everyone. You know, like love, who you want Be who you want, as long as you don't hurt yourself. As long as you don't hurt somebody else, then there should be no problem there. Yeah.

IRN: 1022
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_charlie_tredway.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004433
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089727
TITLE: Charlie Tredway - Out in the Park (2016)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Charlie Tredway
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Australia; Big Gay Out (Auckland); CD4 threshold; Charlie Tredway; Destiny Church; HIV / AIDS; HIV stigma; Love Your Condom (LYC); New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Out in the Park (Wellington); Out in the Square (Wellington); PrEP (Pre-Exposure Prophylaxis); UNAIDS; Waitangi Park; Wellington; World Health Organization (WHO); advertising; anal sex; community; gay; homosexual law reform; judgement; medications; safe sex; sex education; sexual health; social media; stigma; volunteer
DATE: 12 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Charlie, a Community Engagement Officer with the New Zealand AIDS Foundation talks about attending Out in the Park for the first time, the Love Your Condom campaign and the CD4 threshold issue in Aotearoa New Zealand.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name's Charlie Tway. Um, I'm down from Auckland, my first out on the park, and it's just been really good to see people celebrating their sort of every colour of the rainbow, all their expression and their solidarity with gays. Um, and it's just been a beautiful day. Great energy. It's a lot smaller than the big gay out, but that hasn't detracted from it at all. If anything, it's sort of been a close knit. It's a smaller community, and I find that whenever you have [00:00:30] a smaller gay community or a community of any sort, you sort of not only do you know everybody's business, but there is a lot more sort of involvement. I know that the New Zealand AIDS Foundation and the love your Condom volunteers they're like a close knit family, and you just don't really see that in big places like Auckland. It's sort of yeah, a little bit every man for himself. Yeah, And today you you're with the AIDS Foundation. I am indeed. Yeah. So they flew me down here to just help out and sort [00:01:00] of get a feel for what the community is like down in Wellington. Um, yeah, just get out there, get involved, um, sort of make connections with the gay community down here, And, um, so that I can sort of enjoy the variety. One of the issues I found, uh, last year when I was doing some work around, um, HIV aids way back when In the in the eighties. Um, we put on events, but a lot of, um there wasn't a lot of young people that were, uh, coming to those. How is [00:01:30] that in terms of, like, engaging young people in relation to HIV? Um, I think it's sort of it's difficult. I mean, you have to update your messaging to really target and make it fun and accessible to them. And I think that's what our YC does really well, they have a strong social media presence and just they play that game very well. It's very visual and especially targeted at them. Um, whereas I think in past the message was, you know, [00:02:00] it was about, um, people who died of AIDS. It was about fighting for sort of HIV reform. And, you know, that just didn't really resonate with the young ones. They just wanted a party or they wanted some colour and movement. And so it's finding a way to include that in the messaging and whilst creating a condom culture. So how was that achieved now? Yeah, So I think it's being on board with all the events. Um, you know, making [00:02:30] sure that you have volunteers out there as their peers going out and engaging with people. Um, it's, you know, making sure the the campaigns and stuff that you're doing are really targeted to that sort of age bracket. The the people that aren't testing and trying to sort of make them feel comfortable discussing sexuality And, um, comfortable talking about sexual health and going getting tested. So yeah, so so which, um, which kind of demographic age bracket are you? Are you targeting? Um, [00:03:00] I think that would be, um, late teens to, um, thirties. Sort of a vibe. Yeah, So I mean, it's just getting that sort of sexual health and education out there because it's not taught in schools. It's so you sort of. I know that from personal experience. It was sort of when we were doing sex set in schools. We were learning a lot about, like, reproductive stuff, but then you go out in the gay community. And it's like, [00:03:30] you know, there needs to be that extra sort of information about, like, why passing on HIV is, um you know, it it's a lot easier to do, um, through anal sex and, like, white guys are more at risk. So, yeah, it's sort of getting that sort of messaging out there and targeted messaging that you just don't get in high school or anywhere else. What? What do you think some of the issues are for rainbow communities in New Zealand in 2016? Um, [00:04:00] yeah. So I just moved back from Australia. So, you know, I have the perspective of you guys have done so Well, um, in terms of like what you've achieved here for gay rights, in fact, you've always done well and been ahead of the curve there. Um, I just think, though, that there is, you know, sort of really insidious people like the Destiny Church. And there's, you know, things [00:04:30] like C four thresholds and the government sort of, you know, pandering to us, but not really involving us in policy. And so, you know, I think that we just need to get stronger and have more of a presence there, like it feels at times like people's balls dropped off. Like there doesn't seem to be any fight there because there's always things to fix. And you were saying, um, the CD four threshold. What is that? Yeah. So currently in New Zealand [00:05:00] for HIV positive people, your CD four count, which is your immune system has to go below 500 before you can start meds. Or I believe it's actually 3. 50. Um, so that means that your immune system is already compromised before you're allowed to start treatment. And it goes against everything that the World Health Organisation and UN AIDS are saying, which is that, you know, start treatment immediately and the health benefits are [00:05:30] exponential. So, yeah, that's something that New Zealand needs to crack. Um, yeah, jumping ahead 30 years. Um, do you have a picture of what an ideal New Zealand would be like? Yeah. Um, I would like to see there be a lot more unity in the community. Um, I find that everybody's sort of in their clicks, and, um, you know, it's they look [00:06:00] out for themselves, um, and I also think that there is a lot of judgement out out there. I, especially an example, would be with HIV, and I think that as things like prep come to fruition and get included in the lexicon of sort of, you know, safe sex that, um, you know, it takes things like HIV stigma out of the way. It takes, um, being ashamed to have a discussion about safe sex out of the picture, and it makes everything sort of [00:06:30] more accessible and sort of strips the fear out of it. So, yeah, so so is there's still quite a lot of sticking around there. Um, yeah. No, I I'm sort of lucky. I live 100% open like I than in media and on TV and stuff. So it sort of weeds out the ignorant people. But I know that people that aren't as confident there is they're met with a lot of sort of resistance [00:07:00] to even dating somebody with HIV or even having say sex with somebody with HIV because they're not informed. Um, at the end of the day, it all comes down to like them not having the information at their disposal about what actually constitutes and doesn't constitute risk. And, um, you know, we're not the Boogey Man. We're not out there to pass on the virus to people. In fact, you'll find that the majority of new [00:07:30] transmissions of HIV aren't actually coming from people that know that they're HIV positive. They're they're coming from people that aren't testing or or don't know their results or, you know, and part of that is also ties into HIV stigma. So, like if you're afraid of going and getting tested because IV is this big sort of axe hanging over your head, which it isn't, it's perfectly manageable. Then you're not going to go get tested because you want to know those results. [00:08:00] And those are the people that are passing on HIV.

IRN: 1015
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_bob_davis.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004432
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089726
TITLE: Bob Davis - Out in the Park (2016)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Bob Davis
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 2010s; Anti-Apartheid Movement; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Bob Davis; Colin Moyle; Donald Trump; Fran Wilde; Gerald O'Brien; International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association (ILGA); National Gay Rights Coalition; Out in the Park (Wellington); Out in the Square (Wellington); Proud 2016 (Wellington); Robert Muldoon; Robin Duff; Spain; Stonewall riots (1969); Taumarunui; Waitangi Park; Wellington; activism; allies; anger; anti-nuclear movement; anti-war movement; capitalism; conservative; fascism; feminism; future; gay liberation movement; gender identity; homophobia; homosexual law reform; identity; law; parade; patriarchal system; politics; racism; visibility
DATE: 12 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Bob Davis talks about the anger and activism of the 1970s which laid the foundations for homosexual law reform in the 1980s.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm Bob Davis, and I'm from And, um, I haven't been in a in any gay activity in Wellington for the last 30 odd years, and I'm very interested to see how things have changed from the 19 seventies and the 19 eighties. And I think there's been a great change, and I'm glad to see it. A change for the better I had. So what kind of activities were you involved in back in the seventies and eighties? Uh, I was involved. I'm one of the survivors from Gay Liberation [00:00:30] and I organised in Auckland for the, uh, for the A social club There in, uh, 1977 76 and 77. And, um, I was instrumental in setting up the, uh along with Robin Duff and setting up the, um National Gay Rights Coalition. And in 1977 and ever since I came out in 1974 I've been an activist for men to men and or now and for all [00:01:00] alternative sexualities, which is now known as Rainbow A Rainbow People. And, um and, uh, I'm very interested to see how and very pleased to see how things have changed so greatly from the anger of gay liberation and those all those things that happened way back in the 19 seventies, especially seeing now that political power is not being homophobia is not being used as a political power, as Muldoon used it to destroy [00:01:30] mul, uh, to destroy Moyle and O'Brien in the 19 seventies. So things have come a long way from the use of homophobia as a political weapon to what we have today. So how did you get involved in, um, I came out in Spain in 1974. And, um, I was with my American partner. And while I've been active in the, um in the anti war movement, the anti [00:02:00] nuclear movement and the anti apartheid movement in my university days, it kind of I kind of scrawled into gay liberation activities quite nicely because, um, 19 seventies, as people may or may not remember, it was a time of great ferment and turmoil. And, um and there were, uh, there was a a good, uh, correlation and good relationships between all of those movements and the gay [00:02:30] liberation movement. So they had all had a common cause And that, uh, a common, um, a common not cause a common background, which was, um, the, uh, challenging, patriarchal and repressive state power, basically, and very conservative social values that existed in New Zealand at that time. Yeah. So can you describe some of the activities that were happening in the mid eighties around law reform? Um, the law reform is I can't speak [00:03:00] anything about that period because I left New Zealand in 1982 before the law reform activities got underway. But I can assure you that from 19. The early 19 seventies, until their law reform in 1986 there was a great deal of work that was done by gay liberation and feminists and also, uh, non non queer people, non rainbow people [00:03:30] who were very supportive. So, Fran, we came very lately. Came very late to the, uh to the, uh to her credit. She picked it up, but she came. She was building on a on a base that had been in place for a good 10 years prior to her arrival. So it's That's, um and I think that, uh I think that, um we need to remember that, uh, that, um that that was part of the history. If, [00:04:00] uh if the rainbow what's become the rainbow movement, we need to remember that. And unfortunately, with, um, the critical edge in terms of in terms of seeing, um, Rainbow, Rainbow sexualities and genders as an alternative way of living is kind of been lost, which was the focus in the because the early gay liberation movement was very much a challenge to the capitalist and the patriarchal [00:04:30] society that we had then. Anyway, I think I've said enough coming to today and now I mean, did you ever think you would be seeing this kind of, um, visibility? And that's a pretty good question. Um, I'm really thrilled to see the number of people that are now involved in the diversity of people that are now involved. We had a function last night at the end of the international meeting [00:05:00] that the ELGER had here in Wellington, and I didn't get the opportunity to get up and stand up and say that when I first began acting be lucky if you got 10 10 people room, you know, to organise something, And now, looking at the conference there yesterday and looking at the crowd here today, you can see that the seeds that were sown in the early seventies in the early seventies have mushroomed [00:05:30] to a real forest, which is really pleasing to see because what it says that New Zealanders are becoming much more comfortable with diversity and much more comfortable with expressing who they are. And at the conference yesterday, there was a real welcome development in terms of reaching out and having international solidarity as an aspect of the rainbow movement, which hasn't existed for a long time, [00:06:00] hasn't existed in prior times except in the early days of gay liberation, when there was a great influence from America and a lot of the thinking that went on and gay liberation came out of the stone wall and all of those kind of things. And, um, it's great to see the change that's taken place. It's a really positive and a really welcome development. And I'm so pleased to see it happening. And just finally, um, so we're 30 years since law reform. [00:06:30] What do you think is gonna happen in another 30 years? Time? What? What are we going to look like? Well, who's got a crystal ball? I mean to say If you had told me 30 years ago that you would be having a rainbow parade like this, I would have been somewhat surprised because in those days things were you know, things were very, very different. In 30 years time, I hope to see that that, uh, that all of the various communities that make up the rainbow, [00:07:00] the rainbow movement have have continued to work and to to to protect. And, um, protect is not the right word, but to encourage people of alternative sexualities to express themselves and have pride in who they are and have, um, and and feel safe about their about their sexuality and their gender. And And I hope that we don't that we don't get a fascist [00:07:30] backlash or some kind of regime in place in New Zealand that actually tries to strip away a lot of the positive changes that have taken place. I mean to say in America, Trump represents a real raw expression of American frustration, and I'm old enough to remember that Muldoon and his ilk were able to capture the [00:08:00] their anger and the frustration of a lot of New Zealanders in the 19 seventies and used race as well as homophobia, with the raids on the Islanders, our homes to send them back to their home country. And it is a very fine line between governments that are progressive and supportive and positive and those that try to strip away rights, and I hope that we never return to that situation. But given the institutional structures that exist in political leadership, it's [00:08:30] always a possibility, no matter how subtle that change may be.

IRN: 1005
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/wellington_pride_parade_2016.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004431
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089725
TITLE: Wellington Pride Parade (2016)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Adrienne Girling; Alex Ker; Amanduh la Whore; Bernard Lee; Chris Bishop; Christoph Hackenberg; Des Smith; Grant Robertson; Iria Pene; Jan Logie; John Jolliff; Karen Harris; Mari North; Ness Simons; Tabby Besley
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 2010s; Adrienne Girling; Alex Ker; Amanduh la Whore; Bernard Lee; Chris Bishop; Christoph Hackenberg; Des Smith; Grant Robertson; Green Party; HIV / AIDS; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); InsideOUT Kōaro; Iria Pene; Jan Logie; John Jolliff; Karen Harris; Lesbian and Gay Fair; Mari North; Member of Parliament; Mr Gay New Zealand; Mr Gay Wellington; National Party; Ness Simons; New Zealand Labour Party; Out at Work Network; Out in the Park (Wellington); Out in the Square (Wellington); Out in the carPark (Wellington); Outerspaces (Wellington); Pride; Pride parade; School's Out (Lower Hutt); School's Out (Wellington); Tabby Besley; The Glamaphones; Tranzform (Wellington); Tīwhanawhana; UltraViolet club (Wellington High School); Vietnam; Vinegar Hill / Putai Ngahere Domain; Wellington; Wellington Batucada; Wellington High School; Wellington Pride Festival (2016); ballet; drag; drag kings; homosexual law reform; human rights; law; marriage; marriage equality; moment of silence; parade; pride; queer straight alliance (QSA); remembrance; school; visibility; youth
DATE: 12 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Audio from the Wellington Pride Parade, held along Wellington's waterfront on 12 March 2016. A very special thank you to Ness Simons for doing the parade commentary.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: We're just walking along the waterfront here, heading over to Frank Kitts Park to start the Wellington Pride parade. Uh, just in about half an hour, we're gonna start. So there's this big kind of rainbow. I don't know what to call it structure up there for us. Um, and about half an hour we'll have speeches from some MP S and from some local, uh, community groups. And then [00:00:30] we'll start heading down the waterfront over to Waitangi Park, uh, for out in the park, which is going to happen all day from 11 until six. So just come from Waitangi Park, and it's starting to look like a fair. So we're really, really excited. And the wood front seems quite, um, full this morning. Yeah, there have been a few surprises. Looks like there's a rowing competition going on that we didn't know about. Um, but that's OK. We'll just [00:01:00] go past them in all our rainbow glory. And there's also a basketball tournament going on. So it's quite a busy time, which is great for our visibility. Hi, I'm Ash and I came here today to support people and to express my gender identity and sexuality, which is gender flawed and pansexual. Is this the first pride parade you've been? Yes. And how does it feel? [00:01:30] It's pretty cool so far. I'm enjoying it. And what's your sign? Um, my sin is for my schools, Um LGBT QIAP plus, um, safe place and it says, Ultra Violet Wellington High School on it. We pretty much go there and then we do stuff like play games sometimes and then just learn things about history and learn other things, like sex and stuff. [00:02:00] It's been 30 years since homosexual law reform. What do you think? Um, your ideal world is going to be like in 30 years time where people of no matter what gender and sexuality can be able to hold each other's hand and not be afraid in public and not get called words that I'm not going to say because they're offensive to people and it'll be all colourful and rainbows. What [00:02:30] do you think some of the biggest issues are for? For rainbow communities in New Zealand at the moment? Um, probably the fact that not everyone excepts people for who they are. Um, my name is and I came today to support, uh, one of the organisers who helped put this on. Um and yeah, just general support of, um, uh, the freedom for everybody to love who they want to. Really? So what's the importance [00:03:00] of of having such a kind of visible presence? Do you think? I think it's a It's a really good visual for people to, um just a reminder for everybody that, um, you know, there's equal rights for for love, for for everyone, to be with who they want to be with and, um, yeah, kind of no barriers to that. So, and and equally it's a It's a time for people who perhaps aren't in same sex relationships to come and show their support [00:03:30] as well. That's Bernard. He's our community liaison person and volunteer coordinator. Yes, and this is Chris staff. And he's He's an amazing secretary for the committee as well out in the park, uh, and in charge of, uh, coms and marketing. And we have We are quite amazed about this turnout today today, and we are happy that the weather is like this and it will be sunny. We ordered it for midday. So, um, there are, [00:04:00] I think, around 304 100 people here. So it's an amazing turnout to last year and we are really happy that we have so many community groups participating in the parade. I think 23 have signed up and a couple of more have joined us today and the whole parade is just community groups. We have no corporate, None of us are official sponsors. I think as a group it's only based on community groups and community organisations who are [00:04:30] doing amazing work the whole year and we are really happy to have them in the parade. So why is it important just to have community groups here? I think it's important because the community should celebrate themselves and the parade is for the community. We are just providing the platform and the community should get the messages out there to the public who watch the parade from the side and just celebrate who they are and what they are doing the whole year. And just having fun on the day and being Mr [00:05:00] Gay in New Zealand. What what is that like? Well, it's it's it's kind of funny and exhausting, I guess, uh, exhausting wise people keep mentioning it. Um other than that, uh uh, It's it's it's great to be part of the Pride parade. And, um, I was told specifically to be part in it to be as visible as possible, as as ambassador, I guess. But other than that, looking forward to it, What does Mr Gay in New Zealand mean to you? [00:05:30] Well, initially it happened. It happened to be a surprise. I guess the fact that I happened to one Mr Wellington last year was was somehow a commune effort. And it so happens to be, Well, it happened to be a joke that turned serious, and and I don't really Well, as long as I represent part of the community, they'll be fantastic, that's all. Uh, I am Debbie McClure, and I am pansexual. And so [00:06:00] I'm marching in the Pride parade my first time. Yeah. Same. I'm like, my name's Kara Walton, and I'm not the same time. I'm Wow. So what's it like the first time in a parade? I mean, very colourful, very colourful. I just love I love people watching. I love looking at all the people and seeing all the colours and yeah, it's fantastic. I'm so proud of you know who they are and it's awesome. It's very diverse. There's so many. There's drag kings, drag queens. There's all sorts of groups, [00:06:30] all these organisations that come out. It's just it's just diverse and colourful, and I love that. So So, what are some of the biggest issues around kind of rainbow communities in New Zealand at the moment? Um, visibility, I guess. I think the biggest group that doesn't get visibility is this. This is the Trans group. So, um, these sorts of things are great for the trans community because they get visibility. And I think as long as we keep that visibility going, and as long as we say, Hey, we're here, we exist. You know? That's That's the main issue, I think. [00:07:00] Yeah, definitely. It's pretty much the same thing. This is a great celebration, but ideally, it shouldn't have to exist. Yeah, yeah, like we should all just be equal and accepting. I think that, like what's good for one person isn't good for another. And people need to accept that everyone's different. Yeah. Hi. My name's, uh, Helena, and, uh, this is an amazing 30 years. Wow. Since the homosexual law reform um we're here to celebrate today. There's an amazing amount of colour. [00:07:30] Excited people ready to celebrate, shaking streamers, holding signss, doing all sorts of stuff. It's going to be a fabulous day. So were were you involved in law reform? Ah, no, I won't. Ah, come on. I was too young. Give me a break. OK, I'm gonna I would No, I would have been 18 at the time, so yes, I, I have a really vivid memory of it. I wasn't out back then. Um and I think [00:08:00] you know it. It gave you a little bit more courage. Um, and awareness? Uh, yeah, I guess. Probably. What my, uh, biggest thing at the moment is I don't understand why, um, the minister isn't expunging the records of criminal records for gay men. I think it's really wrong. Um, you know it. It certainly has an impact nowadays. And, um, you know, they can't travel overseas and all the rest of it, So yeah, I think we've still got a long way to go [00:08:30] and certainly within the trans community. And, um, yeah, I'll be there for the long haul to support change. So, 30 years from now, What would be your ideal world? Um, my ideal world would be with my granddaughter who's 10 years old. Um yeah. Goes to school with Children who are completely, uh, accepting of of all walks of life. Yeah, total diversity. Now, [00:09:00] does everyone have their running order? Does everyone know what order you are in in the parade? That's it. Thank you so much. You're the only one. Does everyone know your order? May loves Thank you so much. I have a few groups that I need to phone. So I give them their number so they can find their order. OK, we need everyone Ballet for everyone. Put your hand up. Come here, my love. [00:09:30] To put your hands up safe. There's a group called Safe. A fur safe. Save animals and exploitation. Two more. That's it. Ballet for everyone. Where are you people? You're already done. So we all know what order we're in. There's [00:10:00] flags if you want to carry them for the people. Now listen. Hey, you fellas listening? Yeah, Thank you. We're gonna start our speeches now, so I need you all to be quiet in your groups. If you can just be still for a minute. Our first speaker is prolific in Wellington. She supported [00:10:30] our community a great deal. So it would be an honour if you could all just be shush and listen that sign language for listen. Yeah, or you can talk the Maori language. Say that again, please. So can I please have Jan Logie up here, please? Huge round of applause for Jan, [00:11:00] like in my life. It's, um, a real honour to be here. Um, with all of us this morning, um, it's 30 years on from passing. And I just wanna start by acknowledging those people who 30 years ago could not be public, [00:11:30] whose lives were at risk on the streets and in their homes for being themselves, those lesbians and gay men and trans people who outed themselves publicly and won the battle for us to stand here today. [00:12:00] And I want to acknowledge all those who have passed before. It's a sombre note to start on for the celebration to go forward, we still need to acknowledge those who have passed and those who have died of suicide and from hate crimes. Those who died before law reform and that struggle for change and those who have died since, As we still [00:12:30] struggle for the social change that we need to be able to be completely free, we still have much work to do. So I'd like to just take one minute of silence to acknowledge those whose lives have been lost in this process towards [00:13:00] freedom and human rights and equality. Ladies and gentlemen, can we be outstanding for this, please? Thank you. Yeah, Yeah, [00:13:30] yeah. Thank you. OK, we'd like to introduce next with our next speaker, Chris Bishop. Yay, everyone, [00:14:00] Um, my name is Chris Bishop. I'm a national party MP. I'm based out on the Hutt Valley. Uh, I was elected to Parliament at the last election. I'm here on behalf of Paul Foster Bell, who's one of my, uh, colleagues, uh, in in the national party. I want to acknowledge Grant and Jan Jan. Great speech. I agree with everything you said. I was, uh, four years old, uh, in 1987 when homosexual law reform past, uh, I can't imagine growing up in a New Zealand in which it was not legal to express yourself. [00:14:30] It was not legal to love, and I want to pay tribute to the heroes in parliament in those days who fought so hard and achieved what was so obviously right but not regarded. So at the time, uh, like Jan, we've got a long way still to go. We've got a lot of hard work to do. Uh, I personally am passionate about, uh, the issues that Jan talked about and the issues that are being discussed here and been discussed in the last week. Uh, we've [00:15:00] got a long way to go, uh, for equality and for acceptance. Uh, and for that fight for human rights. Uh, I am a fighter inside the national party caucus and in our parliament. Uh, for that I think community gatherings like this are an important part of, uh, displaying that that acceptance on a daily basis. So it's great to be here. And can I thank you for your welcome, Kira? Just like Chris. I was only four year old, [00:15:30] too. Shut up, everybody. My loves. I would like to present now. I Oh, Her Majesty Her Royal Highness. OK, um welcome, [00:16:00] everyone. My name is Ed P. Um, I am the elected queen of Vinegar Hill for 2016, I I do see some of my loyal subjects here this morning. So and a big shout out to our vinegar hill that are here today and for out in the park. Um, I feel really privileged to be asked to speak today. Um, the theme of out in the or the parade schedule out in the park is community visibility and community participation. [00:16:30] So, um, I want to share with you some of the stuff that we do at Vinegar Hill. Um, it started in 1977 thanks to the very brave and courageous efforts of some gay men way back in the day. And it has now become an annual gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual straight, uh, event, Um, where everyone kind of gears up to a huge, uh, bonfire and New Year's Eve celebration [00:17:00] and show. Um, so you know what? We've seen my partner for my my wife. Actually, thanks to the legislation, Lin and I got married after 15. 5 years in January. Um, you know, so So that's the kind of stuff that this legislation has allowed us to do, you know? And it wouldn't be possible if you guys didn't all come here and gather and just show the support for that kind of, um, you know, [00:17:30] for the the changes that are happening, we've seen the changes of Vinegar Hill happen over the years Where, um, our are coming with us to Vinegar Hill. It's definitely become a event. Um, we've got regulars that have been there. We've been there for 15 years. We've got people that have been there for 2030 years that are coming every year. Um, our straight are coming. Kids are coming. It's a beautiful event. And I think it says a lot about where we are today in terms of, um, our community. [00:18:00] So, look, I just want to, um I was reading through gay, uh, NZ dot com and I found this article, and they were, which I just want to share with you before I, um, give up the stage for our next, uh, speaker. And, um, where did I find this? Craig Hoyle. Craig Hoyle is a columnist for gay NZ dot com And after a visit to Vinegar Hill one year, one Christmas, one New Year's Eve. This is what he [00:18:30] wrote in his blog. I'd recommend Vinegar Hill to anyone who hasn't been. No matter how badly the weather sucks, the people who are there definitely make the experience worth it. There's a sense of and togetherness that is very rarely experienced anywhere else. And it's a great way to meet new people that you wouldn't come across in your normal social circles. We sometimes get a bit stuck in our ways, and camping is a great way to get outside [00:19:00] your comfort zone and to make some new friends. Nothing cements a new friendship faster than hopping up and down together outside someone's tent in the rain first thing in the morning asking if you can borrow some toilet paper. And that's kind of the, uh, spirit, Um, and the togetherness and, um, that we will be having at Vinegar Hill definitely this year. So, um, in closing, I just want you to enjoy your day, enjoy your night and have an awesome [00:19:30] weekend. Go now. Now, ladies and gentlemen, if you're thinking next year you wanna go glamping, they call it Go to Vinegar Hill. A huge round of applause for our speakers. Hi. Thank you. I hope I can be heard all over. I know. So, um So on behalf of that in the park, we'd just like to thank everyone for being here. Today. We're overwhelmed [00:20:00] with the support and to see so many people is amazing. Just a couple of practicalities before Grant does his speech and then starts the parade for us. When we start the parade, we'll be going down. This way there are steps and a ramp, so just be aware that you can use the steps and the ramp, and then we'll turn on to the waterfront and we'll be walking along the waterfront to Waitangi Park. There are marshals all the way. You can't get lost and just to look out for each other. There's [00:20:30] quite a lot of activity down on the waterfront, so just be careful as we walk through the public and just look out for each other and any problems flag them up to our marshals. When we get into the park, we will ask the parade to stop a pause so that can welcome us in with a. So we will start and then have to find a final welcome us before we carry on with the day's events. So thank you. No [00:21:00] Greetings, everybody I'm Grant Robertson, the MP for Wellington Central. It's my job, um, to kick things off today with this fabulous glitter can and I really hope we can I can I just make one little comment at the start, which is, um, Jan and Chris have given great speeches, and it's fantastic from a a parliamentary point of view to have people from different parties at this event because that might not have been the case 30 or so years ago. So I really want to thank Chris and Jan [00:21:30] for that. And we do have a great network of people now in Parliament working on issues for our community. But this day is about you. It's about the community because about 30 years ago, a wonderful man named Des Smith started a gay what was then called the Gay and Lesbian Fear out in Newtown School. And that was when the whole campaign was underway and people were under a lot of threats and harassment, and that group in the community stood up and said, Let's [00:22:00] have a fear where we can celebrate who we are and promote the issues we care about. A couple of decades later, we moved into out in the square and Civic Square, and now we're in out in the park and now we have this parade and that is a tribute to every single community group and activist who has stood up and said, I'm proud of who I am. I'm proud of our community. So I want you all just before we start to give a huge round of applause to Des Smith and those people 30 [00:22:30] years ago who started all No, there's no there is no successful campaign to change anything in the world that hasn't started with people in the community. Today is your day. Today is the day to celebrate what we have in our community and reach further forward for those rights for people who still don't have them. It is my great pleasure. I hope this works to launch out [00:23:00] in the park in the Wellington Pride parade. Yeah, so we've got the, um, Pride parade for the 30th anniversary, which is awesome, [00:23:30] and they're being led by the drummers who are such a feature of Wellington. It's such an important part of the community. There's a lot of community people within the drummers and the drummers themselves are all the good occasions, so they're setting the pace for everyone coming along. Everyone's smiling. They're being led through by the marshals and the roller derby girls, which is cool, Um, behind them, we can't quite see. But there's definitely a lot of rainbow flags and outraged. It's Polly filler, Um, and that coming in behind them, which is cool. Everyone's sort of enjoying it. There seems to be a really good atmosphere here today. [00:24:00] Um, everyone is here to have some fun and celebrate such an important milestone. So yeah, it's quite a big parade. There's a lot more people than I thought they were going to be here. And there's a bunch of different groups I've seen, like, unit here. I've seen schools out. I've seen they're all lining up, waiting to come on, talk to me about visibility and and the importance of visibility. Uh, visibility is super important. I mean, um, you know, I came out really young and there were so few people that you could see and look to as examples of how you might lead a good life as a queer person. And, um, that's [00:24:30] changed so much now, and So we've got just such a diverse community and they're all out today and it's exciting. We've got some fabulous drag queens and their tiktok's being driven along by volunteers, which is cool. An outrageous platform actually going on, which is just brilliant behind them. We've got Mr Gay. New Zealand is here representing. He's got his banner up with some amazing makeup. We've got the official out in the park banner [00:25:00] with the schools out group right behind them, which is really cool. Um, yeah, there's there's a lot of makeup, a lot of excitement loving the rainbow braces which are coming through, um, we got coming up behind there. We've got transform, which is a really important group for young people and is giving visibility to young people looking at gender inside out. It's so cool when you know, like I look back to even 20 years ago in terms of the visibility for young people was so sort of limited, and it was really hard to see others [00:25:30] like you. And now this is big groups, which is great ultraviolet coming through as well and all their fantastic purple Uh, who else have we got? Oh, it just keeps coming. There's more and more people. It's great. Um, And for schools out, um, yeah, I'm loving that everyone's got, like, you know, their outfits and stuff on for today. Describe some of the outfits. Um, so we've got we've got headbands. I just saw a bunny rabbit go past us. We've got lots of amazing makeup and glitter, um, the drag queens looking fabulous with [00:26:00] wigs and platforms and all sorts of bright colours. And then then, as as we describe the outfits a lot of people with less outfits going on. Although there is a lot of, you know, um, played shirts going on, and that's, you know, that's kind of a uniform. Um, and then we've got PS out at PS a coming through who do so much for, um, people in the workplace. And, um, you know, help. Uh, workplaces create good environments for, um, gender diverse and queer people, which is awesome. We got the glamour phones. We love the glamour phones. They they, [00:26:30] you know, always singing the right tunes around Wellington. Um, I'm just going to interrupt you because I'm just gonna go and thank you so much. Cheers. As you we are all these people 30 years back. So, um, Jason John, can you just introduce yourself and tell me how it's all going? Oh, well, this is absolutely marvellous. It 30 years ago, we would never have believed this would happen. This was one of the prime movers in getting a fair off the ground for a fair [00:27:00] law. And look where we are now, What law changes We've seen fabulous. Yeah, this has grown to be wonderful. I mean, it's just so important in the gay community of visibility, and I just feel quite emotional and moved that so many people are turning out today. Did you ever think 30 years ago that that this would be happening today? We didn't even know we get? [00:27:30] 30 years ago, we were battling with the t-shirt men. I don't know if you've heard about them. Those are the guys that used to go around with the on two muscle boys. Their father was a fundamentalist preacher, a Christian. And they went round with gay plus gay. And on the, uh, AIDS and on the back stop homosexual law reform. I don't see I don't see any anti. And this is so good. Yeah, [00:28:00] I'm Alex from inside out. I'm Julia from inside out, and we are marching with so many young people, which is so amazing to see I think it's the first time that there have been this many young people in the Pride parade. So what? Just a lot of people What What does it feel like marching? It just feels so amazing because there's so much like visibility. If if we had this much visibility in everyday life like people watching [00:28:30] on and recognising and acknowledging that our existence, I reckon that's like it just feels so good to be like one part of a bigger entity. Yeah, Yeah, it feels like it feels like at home. It feels like so nice, like so many so wonderful to see so many young people here. I think this is the most young people out in the park that I've ever seen. And it's just so awesome. Why do you think that is? Why is there [00:29:00] so many young people here today? I think it really shows that the support that the groups in Wellington so inside out, schools out transforming outer spaces are, um and all of the high school quest Alliance groups that have started just shows that the work that we're doing is working. And, um, that people are feeling more comfortable to to be out and to to be part of the community and and things like this. [00:29:30] What are you seeing, Murray? What do I see? I see people with rainbow umbrellas and rainbow hats and all my friends. All my friends are here. I am Hong and I see a really large group of people which I can't imagine would live in Wellington I. I thought that there would be fewer people than that, but it's so exciting. And, um And what do you think, Amber? [00:30:00] It's amazing. Yeah, it's amazing. It's my first parade ever. We don't have it in Vietnam, and I Hopefully I wish that one day would have it, um, in my home country too. Yeah. Karen, how's it going? Um, I think really well, they've got a much bigger turnout than we thought, Um, and are leading us fantastically so the atmosphere feels great at the front of the parade.

IRN: 1025
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/speaking_out_proud_2016.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004414
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089708
TITLE: Speaking Out Proud - Proud 2016
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Bella Simpson; David Seymour; Denis O'Rourke; Eliana Rubashkyn; Elizabeth Kerekere; Jack Byrne; Jackie Blue; Joey Macdonald; Kevin Hague; Louisa Wall; Sally Dellow; Sandra Dickson
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Ara Taiohi; Australia; Bella Simpson; China; David Seymour; Denis O'Rourke; Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM); Education Review Office (ERO); Eliana Rubashkyn; Elizabeth Kerekere; Family court; Gisborne; Green Party; How Do We Make It Better (report); How Safe Are Our Schools (report); Human Rights Act (1993); Human Rights Commission; Jack Byrne; Jackie Blue; Jan Logie; Joey Macdonald; Joy Liddicoat; Julie Watson; Kevin Hague; Louisa Wall; Malta; Manatū Hauora Ministry of Health; Marama Fox; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Member of Parliament; Ministry of Education; Māori; Nauru; Northern Region District Health Boards (DHBs); Onslow College; Palmerston North; Proud 2016 (Wellington); Rainbow Tick; Renato Sabbadini; Richard Tankersley; Rosslyn Noonan; SOGII Universal Periodic Review (UPR) Coalition; Sally Dellow; Sandra Dickson; Shawn Moodie; Susan Devoy; To Be Who I Am (2008); Tommy Hamilton; Tīwhanawhana; United Kingdom; University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine; Wellington; Wellington High School; Whangarei; Yogyakarta Principles (2006); Youth 2000 National Youth Health and Wellbeing Survey; Youth Parliament; Youth'12 survey; accountability; activism; birth certificate; bisexual; burnout; colonisation; conference; cross political party working group; education; empowerment; endocrinologist; engagement; exclusion; gay; gender; gender expression; gender identity; gender neutral bathrooms; government; health; homelessness; hormone blockers; hormone replacement therapy (HRT); hormone treatment; hui; human rights; identity documents; intersex; kaupapa; lesbian; marriage; marriage certificate; marriage equality; mental health; national rainbow strategy; passport; pathways to life; politics; prison; prisoners; queer; racism; rainbow cultural competency; rainbow refugee quota; refugee; rehabilitation; research; safety; school; self determination; sex characteristics; sexuality; sport; suicide; suicide prevention; surgery; takatāpui; tokenism; trans; transgender; transition; visibility; whakapapa; youth
DATE: 10 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine, Mein Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the plenary session: Speaking Out Proud.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: No. Um, first and foremost, it's my privilege to be able to thank those who have opened the door, set the scene and prepared the space for us today, beginning with that. Fantastic. The welcome From last evening. Um, And with today's opening proceedings and speakers, uh, I've had a chance to reflect on some of the messages that we heard last night, and they were [00:00:30] profound. Um, Renato, you talked about the need to continue to work on being together, taking strength from each other. Uh, and you warned about the consequences of fragmentation and isolation. Really, really important message. Jan, You gave voice to some of the realities of being together, and you spoke with humour and passion about those realities. And, um, I think just about everybody [00:01:00] in the room resonated with what you were talking about about the challenges that we face being together and that we need to surpass or that we need to meet. So these things together with that offered by the support of, um, made for, in my view, an inclusive and an uplifting beginning to our time together. So thank you all very much for last evening. And [00:01:30] in fact, for the report back this morning, Um, on the other, um, meetings that have been held prior to us gathering today. This session is entitled speaking out proud. It's a session where issues voiced by the LGBTI communities the out communities are listened to by a cross-party group of parliamentarians and the session is being facilitated by the Human Rights Commission. Secondly, I'd like to acknowledge the arrival of you all, uh, to this open [00:02:00] hearing on LGBTI human rights issues. Without all of you, this could not happen without submitters. It can't happen without an audience listening. It can't happen. And without our parliamentarians here, it's not gonna happen. And particularly, uh, on behalf of all of us here, I'd like to offer our thanks to and the conference organisers for allowing this session to take place in the context of a conference. Um, that is really, really important. Um, I'd also [00:02:30] like to acknowledge that the expertise and the knowledge in the room here not just here in the panel but here amongst, uh, the people that are sitting here in the auditorium. I'm not gonna pick out individuals by name. Um, but you all bring something. You're all very special. And many of you have critical roles. Um, in our, um, individual and in our collective lives. Thirdly, I'd like to offer our warmest greetings to [00:03:00] our panellists, Uh, to my right, it's not Jen Lo. This is Kevin Hay from the Green Party of A in New Zealand. Please give me a, uh, a bit of applause as I We have a New Zealand Human Rights Commissioner, Dr Jackie Blue, Larissa Wall, New Zealand Labour Party [00:03:30] from the New Zealand First Party, David Seymour at New Zealand. Thank you all very much for agreeing to be with us. Um, we were disappointed that a national MP was unable to get leave from the house to attend our panel. However, we do understand the constraints that would have led to this decision. It's anticipated that the panellists present and the various government officials who received the report from today's session will be able to advise the government [00:04:00] on the steps that are deemed critical to making that commitment a reality. The commitment that, um, the government made, uh, after the, um, U PR recommendations came back with, uh, no mention from the state parties, states parties, uh, making recommendations around human rights for sex orientation and gender identity. At that point, the government made a statement that they were committed to an ongoing ongoing dialogue with LG LGBTI communities as part of their civil society engagement [00:04:30] on the outcomes of the U PR and so panellists and, uh, officials will be encouraged to, uh, continue to remind the government that that commitment is still there. Um, next and but certainly not least, I'd like to, uh, thank those who have taken the time and the opportunity to make written submissions to the hearing process. Those who are also prepared to make oral submissions a bit later on and [00:05:00] they're going to speak to, uh, those just a little bit later on. So I'm not going to name those people. You'll see them as they come up. But please give them a round of applause, and it also gives me great pleasure to acknowledge and introduce our team from the Human Rights Commission. I'm not sure Cynthia was going to try and come down, but I haven't seen her come in and know, uh, she's not going to be able to be here. So our CEO and the chief Commissioner uh, send their [00:05:30] regards. Um, chief Commissioner is just about to head off to Geneva. Um, and, uh, won't be able to come down, and the CEO is not going to make it. But we do have, um, the leaders of the sexual orientation gender identity portfolio within the staff team at the commission. Dr. Jill Crisp up here. Uh, hiding in the back row supervisor from the staff and one here to my left. Yeah, Thank you. And also, um, [00:06:00] the this fabulous person that we've imported directly from Auckland for this morning. Uh, Sean Moody, our social media specialist. Yay! Yeah, twittering like mad. So, um, can you tell us what hashtag we? We're doing these on shore. Same one, the conference one. So he's tweeting to the conference hashtag the things that are going on, uh, in this session. So welcome, Sean. And it's great to have you down here as well. I have [00:06:30] the honour of being the panel chairperson today. My name is Richard Tankersley. I'm a part-time commissioner with the Human Rights Commission. I'm based in Christchurch. Um and I have designation, uh, for the sexual orientation gender identity portfolios within the commission going to sit down about now, having done the welcome and introduction. But like to, um, now explain the presentation process. People that are [00:07:00] going to submit will present to the panel their priority issues each slot. We've, um, allocated 10 minutes to that slot for the presentation and and any questions. And so when people are presenting, they'll have about five minutes to present to the panel, and then they'll be invited to answer questions from the panel. We'll give you a warning ballot four minutes. Um, now you may not use all that time to speak. Um, but it's, uh we do want to make sure that [00:07:30] the panellists get a chance to, um to feedback or to check on some of the things that you're telling them. Panel members have had the opportunity to read the written submissions that have been given. And as I said before, in addition to the prepared submissions, there will be some time for submissions to be made from, um, on an oral basis. Uh, the time allocation for those will, of course, depend on our situation at the time. So if anyone knows at this stage that [00:08:00] you'd like to speak could you please make yourself known to So just pop down and have a a quiet chat to him. Um, we've already got you lined up, and that's all good. You've got that, um, logged. Um, and we we know that this is AAA panel of New Zealand uh, a New Zealand based panel, and we're talking about human rights in New Zealand, but we have international guests here with great expertise. And it would be great to hear from you regardless of whether you've come from Europe [00:08:30] or from the Pacific. Um, uh, to, um, offer some things in, uh, one of those speaking slots. And if we get to the point where we've still got some time, we might be able to have a bit of a general discussion. So, social media, um, I think you've already talked about privacy. So if anyone has any concerns about the image being portrayed, then just have it, uh, and and and have A to the organisers and or to Sean about those things. So [00:09:00] let me just make the following points about how the panel will operate. Panel members are here to listen and to briefly, um, question submitters as appropriate. Um, they're not here to answer questions on political positions from submitters or from the audience, so that's not what we're doing. Um, and of course, for this to work, everyone has to be respectful of the comments we made. You may not agree with absolutely everything, but this is a space where things can be spoken and heard and listened [00:09:30] to, um and that may mean quite a divergence of material coming out. And, um, just be respectful of people and of the the fact they've got something to say. Uh, as already noted, um, there may well be some government officials present who are also listening. And certainly there will be a report to relevant government departments to consider, um, as, uh, a a bit a bit later on. And the outcomes from the session will go to the conference organisers, [00:10:00] um, to be included as part of the conference. Um, if any of that's unclear, please, um uh, ask me questions as we go along. Um, but for the meantime, it's Elizabeth. Where's Elizabeth? I've lost you there. I thought I might pick on you to go first. Is that OK? Because you're fabulous. So first submitter. Oh, there we go. This is for you. This is for me. It means I can't cough without [00:10:30] actually deafening the audience, right? Yeah. Good. Um, so our first submitter Elizabeth, No, please come down. We'll have a space for you. And And if you fancy sitting while you talk rather than standing, we'll get you a chair and you're absolutely fine. We need to be of the Human Rights Commission and those that have gone before us. [00:11:00] We also have here and and the similar piece of work that Jack and Joy were involved to be who I am, a lot of work. And a lot of what you've got of you is part of that story. So and it's, um it's with humility or humbleness, and I think we're trying to walk in the huge steps that you've left behind. So [00:11:30] thank you particular Shout out to, uh, particular shout out to Kevin and [00:12:00] and Jan, who I've worked with through our different community work. I just want to acknowledge how hard it is to maintain our activist and community ethics within a government and Parliament environment, and that we really respect the work that you do on behalf of all of us and to the rest of you, I expect to be getting to know you a lot better. Uh, the particular I will be speaking on, uh, just very briefly. And I guess I should introduce myself Elizabeth here. So [00:12:30] I hail from Gisborne. But 20 years in Wellington, I am a chair of trust who opened the today and opened the worst part of the, uh providing the for our conference. Ah, part of what is about our our vision is a rainbow is forming in the sky. And our goal is for to be able to tell our stories, build our communities [00:13:00] and leave a legacy. And so one of the major projects I want to talk about is a national rainbow strategy. I'm very conscious that for people in government and government agencies, when you're dealing with such a diverse community as ours is and we include all Maori who identify with diverse sexes, genders and sexualities. So across the every spectrum, every new leader, every new identity, we cover it for those who are Maori. And so we are aware how difficult it is then for our government [00:13:30] and Parliament to then say, Oh, well, what are the what are the key issues of the hundreds of issues? What are the main things? What is the next step? Our goal with the national strategy, then, is to coordinate those issues across the country. But it's what are we gonna do about it? So all the laws that have been passed and all the changes that have happened in the last 30 years Yes, as Maori, we take a much, much longer view than that. We go much further back and we go much for further forward. And so we're looking at what are the What's the next piece of legislation that must happen for [00:14:00] our community to progress? What are the next four things over the next 20 years? What are the key policies that have to change? Leaders that sit in government, who are the key people we need to be talking to, so that when we take all the issues that young people raise when we take the people the issues that are intersex and trans, our gender diverse people, our bisexual people and all of us, because and again, when you take the long view things have changed But those things our young people talked about that was happening to lesbian and gay people not very long ago. Uh, don't get me started [00:14:30] on colonisation how long it's been since we started the treaty. You know, since that all happened and and how much So a lot is changing and in some ways, the big stuff. Racism is still doing its thing. And so, with the National Rainbow strategy, it's something will be dedicated to over the next couple of years so that we can work with government and institutions across the country to say these are the key things that we need to be getting on with next. Uh, this is And and I really want to emphasise that the strategy does not at all uh, take [00:15:00] away the power and the importance of each of us speaking on our own behalf and raising our own issues and speaking and engaging directly with government ourselves. Uh, but this is a way of coordinating effort and saying right when and also even if some funding becomes available in different government departments, what are the priorities? What do we do next? What do we do in the next five years, the next 10 in the next 20. So Cuba. Yeah. [00:15:30] Thank Do you have, uh, questions or reflections on what Elizabeth had to say you when I strike? Uh, Elizabeth, Um, and, uh, if this actually were a select committee, um, I would be looking for an opportunity to to you and and what you [00:16:00] had had to say, Um and, uh, certainly I. I like the idea of of a national strategy. What I'm wondering about is what engagement you want from from government or from from the cross parliamentary group. In the development of that strategy, do you want, uh, that engagement to occur while the strategy is being developed? Or do you want want that group or parliament to respond [00:16:30] to the strategy once it is available? I see that happening on a couple of different levels. One of them is that as it is being developed, they're going to be things that come up, uh, in your work. Uh, already. And I suppose we would want to be able to help assist away, um, create a mechanism, then for you access in the community, making sure that you're hearing the right voices. Uh, and as you continue with your work? Uh, and then something. I guess [00:17:00] we would want from you in the development of the strategy itself as a clarity of process. It's understanding who it is we need to go to for certain things. So if we're talking about changing the law, for example around, uh, and also that whole process from, yes, we can change the law and we can make rules at this level about how to treat trans gender people in prison. How does that happen? What policies need to be changed across corrections, probation and police? What happens, uh, for the actual [00:17:30] warden of each individual prison? Uh and then how does start training roll out? So it's looking at it's complex. I can't wait for those who are strategy freaks like myself. It's very exciting. Um, but it's that kind of level of engagement to say, What is the process depending on which level we're engaging with, because we have to be able to do all of it and killed? Sure, Elizabeth, I just think we've got the government officials here in the audience. [00:18:00] So I think a a clear comment from you is that you would like government officials to go away with that, um, request to have a rainbow strategy and the government to collaborate on that and and at different levels, is that correct? Yes. I think it's very much going to be community led, uh, the way that we've structured it for we're a very small trust. We work on the basis of community, uh, building, relationship, building and collaboration. So we are not a funded organisation, uh, and so that we are not constrained by funding [00:18:30] funders, requests and and constraints. And so in this, we're not necessarily at this stage looking for funding. That's not what this is about. Uh, however, to ensure that there is engagement across our communities. That's where we would like to be able to get support. Um, uh, Elizabeth, um, thank you [00:19:00] very much for opening. Uh, not only, um, the conference, but also this this particular session, Um, I think that, uh, this whole notion of a rainbow strategy actually has been something that our cross party group has been thinking about, too. Uh, from our perspectives. Um, what are our priorities? What is the legislative reform that we as politicians from across the house, uh, have identified and want to commit to, um one of the [00:19:30] issues that we have as a cross party group is, um, trying to find the things that we all agree on because once we do that, then actually, we can have a concerted effort. Um, and I also want to acknowledge that Marama Fox is, um, a former member of our group. And we, uh, also have a number of other, um, members of parliament. Um, and the other issue that we've been grappling with is how we hold the public system, the public service accountable for meeting the needs, um, of our of our communities [00:20:00] and the diverse needs of our communities. So, um, I also want to total for the development of a national rainbow strategy. And I think you've got the actors here. We've got the community. We've got the Human Rights Commission, and we have the Cross-party Rainbow Group, and I think that together, Uh, if we start looking at what each of us is doing and looking at those points of intersection, um, What I hope is that actually, we can have a strategy That's a collaboration between the community, [00:20:30] uh, and the community will need some aspects of that. It is for the Human Rights Commission who will lead some aspects of that. And it's also with our Cross parliamentary group who will lead some aspects. But I think you're right. It's, um we need a process that ensures all of us are empowered that nobody's disenfranchised, that everybody, uh, buys into and commits to. So some, um, thoughts around how you think or how What's the next step really in getting [00:21:00] us all together, uh, would be appreciated because, uh, you know, you independently have taken some responsibility, as have us, But how really are we going to make this work? So I have lots of brilliant ideas around this myself and have talked to many people, uh, everywhere I've gone to and spoken to in the last nearly a year. I brought this up to ask Who's interested, who wants to be involved at some level. And so off the top of my head, the very first [00:21:30] thing we wanted to do was to convene a coat to a council of sorts is to grab the elders of our community across all of our different identities and just to create the values and confirm the values and and get the mandate. Um, of how this work will be approached. Uh, the other two key things I would like to have done by the end of the year is is a around this so that we have really clear about, um, young people being engaged [00:22:00] in this. And the third thing is a research symposium so that we can start looking at Yes, we know a lot of our issues. Uh, they've been expressed in different ways within our community, if not out in the wider world. What evidence do we need to back some of that up? What things do we need to get done urgently? And from that, we'll be doing a national tour around the country so that people have the chance to speak. Not just about identifying issues I'm always about. Yeah. And what are we gonna do about it? And what and what [00:22:30] and what? And so and looking forward into the future because nothing is simple. We have to do many layers of work to address these things. Uh, so those things will roll. I want to come back to just address what you said at the beginning that this is something Absolutely. I saw that it will be done in conjunction with government in conjunction with Parliament so that we get it when that is done. And as it progresses through that, we are all engaged with it, and we are all committed to it. I don't see it as a separate. We're going to, as we often have done. And as we have needed to do is [00:23:00] to say, this is our thing. And then we go to you, and we either do demands grovelling try to, you know, lobby and all of those things we see this is operating at a higher level and that, uh, not to say any of those other things are not necessary in different contexts, but in this case, absolutely something that we can work together. Hello, everybody. Um, look, first of all, thanks for the opportunity to to be here [00:23:30] today and to, uh, uh, be able to listen to what you have to say and to ask questions. First thing I'd like to say is, uh, applaud the strategic approach that you you you are proposing. I think that is definitely the best best way to go. And I hope you will identify the priorities in that as well, because there's going to be a lot to do as you you well know. I really only have, uh, one question at this stage, and it's around public. Engage engagement because, as you will know, [00:24:00] politicians find things a lot easier if the public understand what's going on. And, um, there needs to be some leadership in that which I'm sure your groups can provide. So, um, my question would be, what proposals do you have to engage the wider public to and to try and bring as many people with with us as possible. That's a really good point, one of which is not really considered very [00:24:30] much so Now that I think about it now, I see the value of that, uh, to begin with, the strategy is very much looking at What are the what are the aid issues? Much of which is known, uh, the creative ways and we in which we see that this can be addressed. And I think you're right. Depending on what the issues are, depending on which communities we're talking about, Then we're talking about engaging [00:25:00] the wider um, wider community. If I could give the example of the intersex roundtable that's coming up next month where absolutely those issues are so key for intersex people, Uh, and then the round table enables creates an environment which can engage us as kind of the it can engage medical profession, um, and other parts of the community. So I see that that is quite a lovely model, uh, for engaging the people who have direct input into those particular things in this case, a particular health focus. [00:25:30] Uh, but I can see that how that can operate. Uh and the fact is, all of us and all of our different organisations are engaging with the general public as members of of a, uh and and I as members of families throughout this country, we are constantly engaging Bell. I gave the example of being an activist since she was 11 and those of us who have been activists our whole lives as well This is something that we're involved in constantly. So I see that that will be part of a natural [00:26:00] process. To begin with, we'll start looking at our solutions and then thing to achieve these things who do we need to talk to? And it will become part of that wider discussion in the public. But thank you. That's something I will put more thought into. Oh, good. And, uh, I'd like to thank everybody, uh, and particularly, uh, Jackie and the commission and the organisers for having me here. Um, and so thank you very much, I. I have to say, I, I really admire the idea of thinking several steps ahead. Um, because [00:26:30] it's, uh, the easiest thing to say everyone should do and the hardest thing to actually do so good on you. I just have one sort of slight challenge is it's all very well to have a national strategy, and I think we should. But we should also be mindful that many of the challenges that the communities that we are trying to to advance the face to have been from state laws and state institutions. Um, and I just wonder if you got a, I guess, a strategy to make [00:27:00] sure that a national strategy doesn't become and I hesitate to use the word but a national straitjacket. Mm hm. I see that it's something that will evolve and something that needs to be constantly updated and that because at this stage, when I first started talking about this, people said to me Oh, [00:27:30] you'll need an office and you'll have to set up a, um, get some staff and you and I was like, No, let's let's not constrain our thinking into particular solutions There's different ways that this, uh, will be able to operate. I don't see that it's something that gets done. Then it's it's done, it gets finished and that's a piece of paper to sit on the shelf or it goes to wherever it's going to go. This must be a living document that will only happen if people who commit to it the organisations [00:28:00] that are already doing the work and all the things we need to set up to do the rest of the work only if they continue to be engaged in that and that that is absolutely a challenge of this of this work is that that people can see their long term goal and see that this will feed into and help attain, and because the key thing about this as well is that so that we each become familiar with each other's issues because it's so easy when we're in our little worlds and, uh, to to not see what's happening for the [00:28:30] rest of us or to resent people because they see that they've got more privilege than us or or whatever instead of seeing the whole picture. And I think we keep that a living document so long as we we set it up right. The process is sound. The engagement is sound from the beginning. It will continue to be so Thank you, panel. And, um, thank you very much, Elizabeth. And again, please give her a fabulous round of applause for going Cheers. [00:29:00] Thank you, people. We're going to move down our, um, submitters list, and, um, we'll hear from Sally. Sally Dello first, um, and then after that, Sandra Dickson. I just want to check and see if Kelly James or Sarah H have arrived in the room. No. So after, um, after Sandra, then we'll be going to Bella. Um, and then we've got, um, some an indication from some other people that they want [00:29:30] to speak as well. So, um, but if you want to, um, again, if you want to line up to, uh, give a brief oral submission to the panel. Then, uh, you need to let know. So I know to pop you into the order. So Sally Dello thank you very, very much. Just had instructions from our sound people that if I could stand by the square and talk So Joey and Jack, can you come and join me over here, please? Makes [00:30:00] makes it a bit easier. Um, I put in two or three or three oral submissions to I'm taking. I just have one opportunity to speak. Um, the reason for doing that is we held our yesterday, and the closing for the submissions to the panel was on Sunday. So in order to, um, I wanted a placeholder for the trans community to be able to speak to the panel, Um, I want [00:30:30] to cover off three areas. I'm gonna try and do it very quickly. And I'm gonna ask, um, Jack and Joe McDonald to, um add some extra words. Um, I'll try and be brief. Um, the three things that are, uh, important for me as a trans person. And I don't speak for the community. I speak for myself and listening to people yesterday, Um, adding gender identity into the Human Rights Act. [00:31:00] There's a reason that it's important to us at the moment because it's not in the Human Rights Act. We can't point to that and point corrections and police and justice to that act and say, Hey, your gender identity isn't the act. It's a human right? You've got to treat trans prisoners. OK, we can't do that at the moment because all we've got is an opinion from the crown in your office. Um, so that's kind of, um, one of the [00:31:30] reasons for looking at the Gender Recognition Act. The other thing I would point like to make with that is, um, when the they tried to add the word gender identity, I think this is your initiative up to, um, the annual bill that correct typos and spelling mistakes. Um, I did some had a conversation with some people from the Victoria University Feminist Law Society and working with Eliza McDonald, Elizabeth McDonald and a couple of students. Um, and [00:32:00] they they put together, um, they basically had to go at rewriting the act or the bits that needed to be changed. So this conversation is happening in the community and work being done. Um hey, we've got voices. Please listen to us. Um, just a quick mention about health and Joe's gonna talk more about health in a minute. Um, the Ministry of Health through the high cost treatment pool funds essentially two trans surgeries [00:32:30] a year. Now. I'm a scientist. I play with numbers. Um, I went, what's the origin of those numbers? And surprisingly, they actually match the prevalence numbers and the DS M force of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, which for trans men was one and 100,000. The numbers work out. That's where they come from. Um, my point is that they the Ministry of Health made a commitment to fully [00:33:00] fund trans surgeries based on those prevalence numbers. The problem is based on the youth 12 survey, there's not 100 and 60 trans people in New Zealand. There's 50,000 that's gonna require, uh, a dedicated surgery theatre double shifted just to meet the ongoing need without covering the unmet need. There's a huge investment required to meet the health need, the surgical health needs of the trends. And it also includes the inter community when they are of [00:33:30] an age to making 4% about what they want to do with their bodies. One more point. And then I'll hand over to my, um, colleagues, um, the Human Rights Commission. We're looking at trans prisoners. There's been a policy written, and there's just a a phrase that comes, I believe originated with disability activism had nothing about us with our the trans community was not involved. As [00:34:00] far as I'm aware in writing that policy or having a conversation around that policy, um, the trans community has a range of skills and abilities. Like I said, I'm a scientist. We have lawyers in the community. We can have these conversations and have these conversations at a high level. Um, please invite us to the table because we have things we need to say, Um, we would like to be listened to, not talked at [00:34:30] and the way the policy was written. Only rich white trans women who can get gender change on birth certificates um, can afford that. And those are most need help are more often poor trans women of colour who are least likely engage with the system to change their official documentation um, but the policy has been set up around the wrong way. So again, we would like to have that conversation because we've got some things to say. [00:35:00] Thank you, Sally. Thanks for this opportunity to speak. My name is Joey McDonald. Um, I'm just gonna add a few extra points and some clarifications about the discussion regarding health and Health Services In particular, I wanted to highlight that, um, as as Jill has already said, Jack and Julie. So Jack Burn and Julie Watson are already here, [00:35:30] and their work has really underpinned all of us being here today. So I'm incredibly personally, deeply grateful to you both different. Ok, you can I'll try and take a few more minutes. So your type, um, our U PR submission. So I know this is something that you've had access to read. I think the panel that was the JGU PR submission that we completed last year, year before, a little while ago. Um, that really does have some comprehensive recommendations [00:36:00] about health. So I'm not going to just read them out or go through that again, because I certainly I hope our community has access to that, and we can make that available if you don't and our panel already does. I'd just like to highlight two key points from that submission, and that was about intersex people and prohibiting genital surgeries and nonconsensual medical interventions for intersex people. That is something we could have legislation about, that other countries have legislation about that. We need to be taking action on, [00:36:30] um and also AAA broader issue about understanding. As people have already said today, the, um, overlaps and intersections between transgender and intersex communities, recognising that this is not the language that everybody would use anyway. It means that having access to high quality health services, which is something like Sally, has highlighted the need for access to surgical support, which is something that some people want and other people don't want. A lot of people in my role I can talk [00:37:00] about a little bit what my role is, but it means that I'm seeing a lot of people who want access to mental health support, whether that's counselling or whatever, and often they don't meet that criteria for secondary mental health services. Our mental health services are set up, um, very much around strict clinical criteria and a desperate kind of need. If you don't meet that criteria, you don't get access. So there's massive need in our communities. It's really unmet by any public health system in terms of the discrimination and the minority stress that we face that causes us to develop all kinds [00:37:30] of responses to that situation. We need our public mental health services to actually be able to respond to our needs. I love her clothes. I also wanted to clarify that, um, hormones are something that a lot of people want access to and in New Zealand at the moment. As you all know, probably it's really inconsistent as to the pathways of care [00:38:00] or the the the ways that people might go about trying to access hormone treatment so some people might go to a GP. Some people might find a specialist. Some people pay $7000. There is no public health system that is set up to meet the needs of people who want access to hormone treatment, whether that might be an in sex person or a trans person or anybody falling under that diversity of sexes and genders working in mental health. I have seen that some people try and get that access through mental health services, and we're lucky that there are some great staff who will [00:38:30] try and meet that need. But they're not funded to do that. They're not supported to do that. They're not given education to be able to do that. So not surprisingly, a lot of people are not picking up that kind of that need in mental health services. It's not something that a lot of people want to see. Housed in mental health services, anyway, is another point. Um so access to mental health support and hormones are things that a lot of people talk about wanting, Um, with not a lot. I want to emphasise the fact that transition means really different things for different people. [00:39:00] So not everybody wants any kind of medical intervention. People who do want different kinds of things to suit the particular self determination that we have. All of those services can be delivered basis on the basis of, um, we can talk about human rights and particularly, I would say, respecting bodily autonomy and respecting self determination if we were able to have health services that were underpinned by those principles a whole lot of people would be, um, surviving and possibly thriving, but certainly not dying, which is what's happening now. [00:39:30] I love Elizabeth's, um, Rainbow strategy, and I'm on board for contributing to that. And I also really want to point out that a lot of work has previously been done and has been presented to the government. And I rely on the HR C to keep reminding the government that we're not. We have. We've been working our asses off to actually get that material to you because a lot of us aren't paid to do that work. We don't have a lot of infrastructure, so [00:40:00] I respect that. A lot of people want to do the work without funding as Elizabeth, as Elizabeth said. That's without that kind of restraint that funding can give you. But it means that we don't have the capacity to be constantly saying, Please, remember what we said last year. Please remember what we said five years ago. Please, 10 years ago this happened. We keep saying it, we keep saying it, we keep saying it and it seems to fall on deaf ears. A lot of a lot of the time so please refer to the documents that already exist, as well as asking us for our current state of affairs and comments on that. Thank you. [00:40:30] Um, my name is Jack Byrne. Um, I'd also like to acknowledge and support everything that other people have said here. Um, Joey didn't mention that, um, they're one of the people who's been involved in the Auckland DHB, the Northern DHB proposals and then just one clarification. Currently, those discussions have not resulted in any improvement because they're just discussions at this [00:41:00] point. And most Trans people pay for every single aspect of our transition related care in this country. The only thing that we could say for sure that we don't have to pay for is once we eventually get put on hormones, that it's covered by a subsidy, and it's and and it's one of the cheap, you know, it's cheap to be on hormones in this country. Yeah, yeah, yes. So even [00:41:30] that isn't even that. Isn't it the same for the guys, too? There's prefer models that aren't subsidised for some people as well, but everything else. Most of us most cases if we need to get a a diag. A diagnosis we have to pay privately to get that diagnosis. Many parts of the country from people from Palmerston North yesterday and the endocrinology service there has said we will not accept any more referrals because they've got young people coming through. So people are paying to see [00:42:00] private endocrinologists. Most of us there are many surgeries, friends, men and chest surgery. We pay for that ourselves. There used to be a couple of doctors who did it, and then the DH B said, No, we're not funded to do that. So I know that the ministry often says it's great that the the northern DHS are doing this. But we've been used as footballs between Ministry of Health and DDS for a long time. When one says the DC should be doing it and when they are not doing [00:42:30] it, they say that the ministry is not giving us enough money, so please try and find a way to sort it out because, particularly for young people, they see it. When you say pathway of care. It sounds like something I don't know clinical, but actually it's pathway to life. People don't see a path. I was I was talking about, but so my brother is about [00:43:00] something really fundamental. I loved it when, um when there was joy who came up with the title for to be who I am the language of the Trans and inquiry report and I was very lucky to be working as a senior policy analyst at the commission when we when we did that report. Now I work as AAA consultant in the region for organisations like the United Nations Development Programme. And so at the moment I'm working on a legal gender recognition project across Asia, eight countries in Asia [00:43:30] and people often think you know, legal gender recognition is just being able to change documents, but it's actually about really fundamental human rights. It's the third right mentioned in the Yogyakarta principles. It's the right to recognition of all the law and the right to equal protection. It's a fundamental civil and political right and and that's why I chose to make a personal submission to the Human Rights Committee that is looking at New Zealand's periodic review [00:44:00] in the next week. The next couple of weeks, uh, under the um, the International Covenant on Civil and Political rights. It's a really fund fundamental right? Most of you probably know that. It's it's We've got a world leading policy in New Zealand for changing passports, and that's huge. It has made a huge practical difference for people's lives, but not every person can change their passport. If you're a new person living in New Zealand in New Zealand, but you're not a New Zealand citizen, you can't change your passport. [00:44:30] And there are some circumstances where you still need your birth certificate. My understanding is that what's written on your child's birth certificate the sex on that depends on what you're on your birth certificate. So if you if you still what's on your birth certificate is what goes on your death certificate. And many and many Trans people in this country have changed their passport. But we actually many of us have incongruent documents. Our birth certificate [00:45:00] says something completely different from what's on our passport, and I would have thought that was of concern to government, and we we navigate what other people people often think of us as deceiving people about who we are or wonder about that we're trying to be fraudulent. We navigate that knowing that our documents are incongruent and incongruent because the process which changing a birth certificate as a family court process. And um, there's someone [00:45:30] from, um, Karen said to me today, most of the girls, particularly Maori, you know, don't know that you can change your birth certificate without having surgeries. So there's huge issues around people's perception of the law. There has been a family court decision. It's only the whole lower level. They're not. They don't see precedent. But there was a family court decision that said not all surgeries are needed in all cases, but it still depends on what an individual judge says. It still says in the act [00:46:00] that you need medical evidence. We can't even get to see me to get on hormones. The chances that we got to give them to write a document for us that we can take to the family court gets remoter and remoter and remoter when there weren't many of us and you know, it was relatively easy to do. Now we can't even get a script out of them. How are we gonna get that letter? You know, and and maybe the family court judge will think the GPS letter is enough. But there are people still being asked to show proof of sex reassignment surgery. Even though that's [00:46:30] not covered. Why can't we just make it simple? Adopt our passports policy? It's world-leading. Use that for changing birth certificates as well. Give us equal protection under the law as every other citizen remove that discrepancy that there is between our documents and do. The wonderful thing that we do in this part of the world is recognise three options in if or at the moment it's X as a third option, so it wouldn't cost too much. So, so so so that they [00:47:00] were, and also totally simple. There are people here who have lots of expertise regionally. Fiji. They have sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression recognised in their constitution. Australia have added intersex status as protected as a prohibited ground of discrimination. We can learn from each other and there's a lot we can share with you and we would really like to see finally see some progress. [00:47:30] OK, well, thank you for that very impassion presentation. I mean, it seems sort of fighting a three front war for legal rights and recognition under the law, Uh, a welcoming, uh, education sector, Uh, and a proportionally funded health sector. And sometimes one of the best things to have is a a working model and just picking up on those final comments. I just wonder, perhaps, [00:48:00] in all of those categories, if I've if I've got those right, Uh, or perhaps just in some of them, are there particular countries that we can look on as a model or is the whole world got a long way to go? Yeah. It's really good countries. And, you know, you might be surprised the world leading one initially was Argentina on legal gender recognition, access to healthcare. Probably not a country that New Zealand looks to a lot. Now, there's a whole lot in Europe, which is probably where you you're more likely to look Malta [00:48:30] wonderful legislation. Not only does it have, um, and the people here from Mel will know all of this stuff too. Not only does it, um, people's self determined, um, gender identity, it statutory prohibits surgeries on intersex infants with Children without their consent. We can We can look at our female genital mutilation laws. You know that explicitly at the moment, have an exception and say, We don't agree with female genital mutilation, but we can have surgeries. We allow [00:49:00] an exception for intersex Children. It's a very simple place to start. Um, so Malta does that that the law change also has policies around how to improve things in in schools. And they've instituted a review of health services. Um, another country. We look at the UK. They've had a gender recognition act there, which is a medical model very quite similar to ours. Their birth certificate model and their select committee in the last January this this year said it needs [00:49:30] to move to a self determination model. And then we've got Denmark. We've got Finland, we've got good provisions. So that's around the legal gender recognition, transgender prisoners. There has been some good work happening in both England and Scotland, so because I'm a, you know, human rights researcher and I work and I'm very happy to provide examples of any of these policies around the world. And one thing with the trains we keep talking at prisons. We keep talking about where people are housed, but equally important is access [00:50:00] to healthcare. When Trans people are in prison and access to rehabilitation and currently those those have become invisible to the debate. I'm going to ask panellists and submitters to speed along a little bit. We're way over time and I've I've I've let that run because I think the core of the issues that both Elizabeth and um, Sally's group have presented us some of the critical ones. Um, but there are some other submitters to come, and we do have to finish at 11. [00:50:30] 30. So, um, I'm just gonna ask us to clip it along a little bit. But thank you. Yeah, I just wanted to respond to the idea of using models in terms of how um, it's particularly important in New Zealand. And as Jack mentioned, I'm part of the northern region. DH B is doing the kind of what they're calling the trans pathways of care proposal, and we don't know yet where that's going to lead, Um, but it's really important that we have culturally appropriate models of health here, and that needs to be recognised in relation to so or gender identity or trans [00:51:00] communities as much as anything else. So making sure that everything is appropriate when it comes to Maori and Pacific, and I think we can do that by relying on instead of clinical criteria and a medical model and a DS M, we can look at informed consent models of access which places are doing some places are doing. Um, instead of relying on pathologize language about meeting certain clinical criteria, there are models of care that are much more about respecting self determination, respecting bodily autonomy, [00:51:30] understanding that, you know, we are the experts on ourselves. We could we could make that happen here. We could be world leaders the same way that we are with our passport policy. Um, it is really, really possible for our health services to move ahead of the game. Currently, we're way behind. We could actually, fairly easily, I think, implement some education and some adjustment to our services to make them genuinely helpful and responsive in a way that won't go out of date in three years. Yeah, [00:52:00] thanks very much for to the the last three speakers. I've made some very valuable notes as a result of that. So, um, you know, you've had an effect already at least as far as we're concerned. Um, there's a tremendous amount there, and a lot of which is going to need a lot of thought. Um, and and there are many things I'd like to explore further, but for the purposes of of just now, I'd like to focus on the ways in which, [00:52:30] uh, birth certificates, passports and other official documents can be changed. Um, obviously, the current law is a mess and and needs attention. What I'd like to know from you is how you think. A process for change, of all all such documents at once, rather than doing it piecemeal, one at a time might happen. Have you given any thought to that? Um, and can I get one person [00:53:00] from a from a submitting group to answer that question? Because I'm really I've got three more submitters and I've got a really short time. So, uh, this has been really valuable, and I need to wind it up just to keep it very brief. Um, the key document actually turns out to be the birth certificate. Um, the way that the passports and drivers, they were all sort of piece meal. If we had the birth certificate, everything else sort it out. So it really stands on that birth certificate. [00:53:30] Thank you. Really have to answer. No, I. I basically wanted to commend you on your coalition 2013 submission, Um, and actually just confirm something that Elizabeth, uh, said earlier that actually, this is a living document, and it needs to be updated because, um, you know the whole commitment to changing or adding gender identity, for example, to the Human Rights [00:54:00] Act. It seems that some people want to expand on that not just make it gender identity, but gender expression or whatever it might be in the commitment from both the Human Rights Commission. Uh, and the submission is just a gender identity. Um, so that's probably the biggest thing other than to say everything that, um, has been noted. Um, you know, we are working tirelessly away, uh, on a doc our own document, which includes everything that you've that you've highlighted. So, uh, I look forward to working with [00:54:30] you. Essentially, I just very quickly thank you for your submission. Thank you for all the people that did take the time to write and, um, very powerful. A lot to take on board and you can actually depend on the Human Rights Commission to keep the government honest. And we're here for the long haul. Don't worry. I echo the points that other panellists have made about the the value and large number of points that you've made that I agree [00:55:00] with and and really need to be incorporated into policy. Uh, one, question reduced to a, um, very brief answer version is, um uh, so I'm I'm the sponsor of, uh, Tommy Hamilton's petition to the, um, Health Health Committee. Uh, and, um, when you spoke about health services, you largely spoke about access to [00:55:30] services and pathways of care, pathways, pathways to life if you like. Um, but I really noted that when Tommy and Marie came and spoke to the committee about, uh, about the petition that their focus was very much on quality of care and and not only, um, about care specific to trans or intersex, um, services, but actually to [00:56:00] all health services. Um, do you agree that that's an important part of what? What the system needs to respond to quality services. One that's partly what I do is trying to provide education to people working in Auckland District Health Board, mental health and addiction services. So it's a tiny piece. Really? Um, and I I'm trying to improve those services, but that said a lot of our services that we are trying to get access to are not funded to meet our needs. And if they're not funded to meet our needs, [00:56:30] then we can't of their quality because they don't even exist in the first place. So we need to both be improving the services that do exist, recognising the great work that is happening and actually making it official and giving people designated time designated portfolios designated processes to be able to meet our health needs. Otherwise, we're just improving the quality of things that don't even exist in the first place. So thank you. Thank you. And Jack and Joey very, very good. Sandra, can I have Sandra Dickson? Uh, given [00:57:00] the timing, I'm gonna have to be, um, really go to strict strict timing on the remaining submissions. There will be a 10 minute slot for Sandra who provided a written submission. Uh, then we've got, uh, Bella. After that, I'm gonna have to give you five rather than 10. Um and rain is here. Ah, right. You've got five minutes as well. Where? We got an email from you saying that you were, um and you've submitted some stuff, but those are our speakers. And then I'm gonna have to wrap up [00:57:30] at 25 past 11. So Sandra Dickson, please, uh, give her a give her a big hand. Thank you. Um, panel members and so nice to be doing this with, um so today I'm speaking on behalf of which is the peak body for youth development in New Zealand. Um, we're an umbrella organisation with nearly 800 members from the youth sector. Um, we include [00:58:00] national organisations, clinicians, youth workers, schools, holiday programmes, the youth sector, um and we were set up to support people who work with young people to be more connected, effective and en and accountable. So my submission today is going to focus on how we create safer environments for rain young people because the young people aren't the problem here. It's the environments that they're growing in. Um literally means pathway to and from young people. And I'm going to use rainbow, [00:58:30] and I know it's a contested term, but I'm gonna use rainbow for people under the sex, sexuality and gender diversity umbrellas. So back in 2012, the National youth sector report from a consultation with more than 250 people across 11 recommended that rainbow issues be included in all facets of youth sector work. The youth sector recognised the rainbow. Young people struggle with discrimination with ST with stigma and with exclusion which creates unique harms. And they also noted that the risks [00:59:00] there were really significant risks in underresourced the rainbow support sector because that sector was relied on by the youth sector. These needs were echoed in a 2014 report from a national survey which called for rainbow competency training for the wider youth sector. Also in 2014, we began our Queer Trans grants programme to support groups working with rainbow young people around the country. Over two years, we engaged with 57 groups, 48 of which we funded, [00:59:30] which I'm not sure if anyone else at that time knew there were 57 groups working with rainbow young people around the country. But we certainly didn't, um you can see there, I think a quite staggering response to our community scrambling to keep up with the needs of rainbow young people. Last year we held three forums and we surveyed these rainbow support groups the ones that we funded. And there were six pressing issues that were identified in these consultations. So the first one, number one burnout, is a serious [01:00:00] issue for the rainbow support sector. These groups are mostly being run by young Rainbow volunteers. They're dealing with really complex stuff. They're doing an extraordinary job, but they've got a lot on their plate. Number two. There are significant gaps for Maori and for rain people from young and rainbow young people from diverse cultural backgrounds, which is a problem because of racism. Yeah, both inside and outside the community. Number [01:00:30] three Suicide is a serious issue. We've got lots of stats on this. I think this one is particularly horrifying. Three quarters of our group said that they are working with a rainbow young person who's suicidal. Nearly half of them had worked with the young person who had later killed themselves. Homelessness is a serious issue. Half of the groups that answered our survey had had a staff member offer personal housing to a homeless young [01:01:00] person because there was nowhere safe for them to go. Number five. There's no Ministry of Health level best practise guidelines for young people and therefore there's no accountability in health care environments and we've heard a lot about that already. So I'll leave that one there. Number six. There's no Ministry of Education level, best practise guidelines for rainbow young people and no accountability in education environments. And what that means for our rainbow support groups is that they are literally picking up the pieces [01:01:30] from the interactions that our rainbow young people have that they have no choice over. You have to go to school. You need health care is continuing to support the youth sector. Working with rainbow young young people, we have some new rainbow infographics which are based on nationally representative data from you 2000. I'm gonna share copies with you today, Um and we're also working on a rainbow competency framework for the youth sector based [01:02:00] on local, national and international best practise. Developing rainbow competency will help the you see to create safer environments and address the discrimination, stigma and exclusion that create the horrible statistics that we've identified and all the research we have, it's all very consistent. But the reason I'm submitting today is that this work to create safer environments that we've been doing that the youth sector has been doing that the rainbow support Sector has been doing isn't going to succeed with our youth support. [01:02:30] We urge you. He urges you to encourage the introduction of rainbow competency, not just in mainstream youth environments, but in government departments. We urge you to support the at least 57 rainbow support groups around the country that are literally doing lifesaving work and are literally Yeah, I can't say much more than that. Actually, they're literally doing lifesaving work with our treasured rainbow young people. Thank you. [01:03:00] I'm done. I'm done. Start in the middle of this time. Yeah, um, a brief comment or again, Short answer questions are really good. Well, firstly, thank you for the work that you do. Um, it's incredibly valuable. Uh, and your submission, um, is well made. Um, what [01:03:30] I wanted to highlight, And actually, David and I are part of the cross party youth parliament group. Uh, and one of the topics that will be discussed generically, um, in the Education and Science Select Committee. Uh, this this youth parliament is should schools be required to be more accessible to LGBTI communities to specifically look at school culture and facilities? So this is an issue that obviously is generic. It's not. It's not just an issue that we need, um, young [01:04:00] Bella and Alex, um, being a champion of. But I think that, um, you know, providing forums where actually, this is a generic issue that all of us need to take responsibility for, um, regarding the rainbow tech. I'm aware of the work that Michael Stevens is doing, obviously, and corporate New Zealand have actually grabbed this concept and particularly the banking sector. Um, I don't know of any, um, public entities that have put their hands up. Um, but actually, maybe Parliament should be, uh, and our parliamentary service, Jan, [01:04:30] uh, should be an entity that we, um, encourage to go through the rainbow tick. So completely agree that, um, that that's a really good indication of how responsive, uh, organisations are to. That's very good. Um, I, I think I don't really have a question as such Other than, um, I guess it's a challenge. Everything you've said is a challenge to us. Um, I'm not aware of those 57 [01:05:00] groups Be really good if you actually share that information with us. Because then our cross party group can write probably letters to, uh, Minister of Youth development. Um, uh, and I don't know, we'll have a brainstorm about what other minister it's relevant to, but someone has to fund them. You've been funding them in the interim because, yeah, I am aware that there is more money in the area and they've funded, uh, rainbow youth. Um, but, [01:05:30] um, just thank you very much for what you're doing. Um, does anyone else have a question? I guess I want to, Um I want to say something about the importance of the small local group. Um recently, I was involved in a national road trip for another piece of work, rainbow related, And we had a, um a that a young Trans woman from came across to attend, and she said she'd come to that because it was going to [01:06:00] be her only chance to see people like her that month. So for her, she was saying one of the things I need is stuff where I am. Yeah, I've got a minute and a half left on this submission. Panellists might decide as to who's gonna ask one more question and get one more answer. Well, if nobody else wants to do that Thank you, Dennis. I'll ask a very specific question. In your view, what would be the top action priorities for government to prevent [01:06:30] youth suicides? Um, in fact, we were the first organisation to chat to the person who's working on that at the moment, So that's fantastic. Um, I think rainbow young people need to see themselves everywhere. I think we need to be visible in schools. We need to be, um, visible in healthcare environments. And visibility doesn't mean a poster on the wall. It means that the processes and policies in those those places respect us and treat us with dignity. [01:07:00] Hm. I, I think we need to We need to move. Thank you very much, Sandra. That's superb stuff. Thank you. We've now got Bella Simpson and I've got a five minute timer for the whole session. So this is, uh this has to be really short. We've got one [01:07:30] more speaker, and then we need to wrap and otherwise we'll be here until after lunch and someone else will miss out. I think the first thing to mention, though, is that this is the third time this week I've been asked to keep it short. So it's just a consecutive thing of young people asking to keep things short. So we need to remember that young people have a voice and I'm just gonna talk. So please, please. And I didn't have a written submission from [01:08:00] you for this panel. And the the priority has been given to those who did that. It's not about being a young person. Please talk. I'm not gonna take up your time by fighting with you. And I don't want to do that. Fine. Um OK, so, um, I'm 19. When I was 11, I came out as a young trans woman. So I've been through Primary Intermediate in high school, um, as an out trans woman tokenized and used to educate teachers and other staff members. So I've been through it all. I know what it's like. Um, and, um, [01:08:30] the statistics at the moment are that one in five young trans people are attempting suicide. These numbers are extremely high. Um, and they are. These young people are not feeling safe. They're not feeling supported, They're not feeling respected, and they're not feeling heard. There's a lack of education, um, and house classes. And there's just a lack of education in general, in schools. Um, so And like English and stuff, you'll never learn about any queer issues or any, um, queer pioneers. You'll always only [01:09:00] ever hear about this. This things. And, um so my question was, What are you guys doing about that? I do hear that Louisa and David, you guys are doing things, but at the same time, that's to a use voice and expecting you to give answers. So I don't really take that as a serious start, but it's a start. So, yeah, where should we start? Jackie, Um, I think I've been [01:09:30] really quite overwhelmed by all the submissions and the comments today to particularly everyone's submission, your submission as well. And I think, where do we start? I think Well, we've got to absolutely keep the government honest. Um, and this is part of what the HR C is doing today is facilitating. Um, officials are here in the audience, listening to the issues that you're raising, and it's clear that we need a whole of government approach, not just a siloed ministry at my ministry. It's not. And we are currently doing that, it seems, with the family violence, sexual [01:10:00] violence, it's doable. Um, and it needs the political will to do it. So, yeah, actually, I wanna give this a bit to Kevin because he's been doing a lot of work in terms of A and, um, holding our schools accountable to being IPs to the needs of our kids. Lewis, Um Thanks, Bob. Uh, so the project that, um, Lewis is talking about started with something we did called, um, how do we make it better? Which was [01:10:30] a project that looked at, uh, taking on that idea of It gets better. How could you make it better right now? What are the things that we would do? And, um, we identified the top priority as being improvement in schools, while some schools actually were doing actually a fantastic job, Um, that the there were also schools that were doing a really terrible job. How is that possible? You know, a state funded system. Um So what we did [01:11:00] last time was another report that said it was called How safe are schools? And it was. Some of you in the audience will have seen this report. It's an audit of error. It follows error around for for a six month period and then asks in each of these schools, how safe actually was the school? How well did it meet its requirement to provide a safe environment for all of its students, and in particular, we are interested in the [01:11:30] trans intersex, um, lesbian, gay and bisexual kids. What the report found was that, uh, while there were some great schools, something like 80% of schools did not provide a safe environment, and that was picked up by EO and precisely none of of the cases. So our our now our priority is around making EO, um [01:12:00] accountable for, uh, checking in every school that it goes to because that's the way that we can drive forward improvement. Any other panellists that have something to ask for contribute to Oh, well, I just I just wanted to highlight I mean, there was an article in the paper over the weekend about Onslow College and Wellington High and the quest straight Alliance groups for want of a better word, actually writing to the boards of trustees and now having, um, gender neutral bathrooms. But what it [01:12:30] seems to me is we're having a, um a a reactive system. So we actually have to rely on having the capacity within those schools, either from the teachers or the students to then, you know, go through a process. Um, what would be really good? And I just had this brainstorm because I think the adolescent research group that, um, doctor Terry and Clark, uh, is part of and she came out quite strongly last year in terms of these statistics. Um, it'd be really good if we did some modelling and told every school, actually, how many queer kids [01:13:00] they have because, you know that that is a potential way forward to say to every school. You should. You you have queer students as part of your student, um, group cohort for this year. What are you doing to ensure their safety? I don't know if how crazy an idea it is, but I was just thinking we should engage with our searches with the evidence to then hold because I you know the out in the fields report [01:13:30] that came out last year about the homophobia in sport. I mean, we've got a whole lot of, um, scientific evidence. Now, how do we use that to hold rugby union accountable, Sport New Zealand accountable, for example. And I think that's kind of the space that we're in. And the dissemination of that, um I think is part of the responsibility that we have. Uh, look, I, I won't take any time except to say that, uh, I think it is important that [01:14:00] ero changes its policy. And as a cross party group, we've committed to achieving that. I realise that that in itself will not change the world, but, uh, in politics, you can't lose what you don't have. And that's one small thing that I think we're pretty committed to to getting done this year. Uh, as a cross-party group. Thank you. Thank you. Um, I think we're we've We're out of time for the submission. Thank you for your for your forbearance. Um, Bella, I appreciate that You probably had a lot more to say. Um, but thank you very much. And panellists, [01:14:30] Thank you for your keeping it short. Please. Um, give Bella a round of the, um, same rules will apply to Eliana Rubashkin, who is coming to the microphone. Um, we've got a strict five minutes going on you as well, So please take it away. Everyone, uh, I'm going to be very brief, and I'm going to focus on the refugees and the refugee issue. I think it's very important [01:15:00] since having been spoken here, uh, the intersex issue, that is something that affects my my personally, uh, as an Intersect woman. Uh, I just want to focus that, uh, it need to be clear for you guys to understand that one thing is sexual orientation. One other thing is gender identity. One other thing is gender expression, and other one is sexual characteristics. Because if you want to put all as a whole in the anti discrimination bill and you don't include sexual characteristics, we intersex people will be out of this anti discrimination bill. [01:15:30] OK? Because I know it's very hard to put in put in put and nouns behind, but, uh, there is intersex people that they are not transgender, that they are not. They don't have any particular sexual orientation or they don't have any particular gender expression. So they just would be out of this. And we need also to be protected. OK, Secondly, um, you know, like I mean health care issues, as they are so difficult for for trans people, they are even more difficult for intersex people [01:16:00] when there is not even a single doctor in the entire country that is able to understand your condition. And then all the limitations that we have in this case is like trans people. They are fighting for quality of care and many intersex people. They are just fighting for having the right to see at least one doctor. You know, like I mean all these kind of things that we need to consider. And now that is what I'm here speaking like here that it is focusing on the refugees. Uh, I'm a former refugee, and I was, uh I came to New Zealand almost 23 [01:16:30] years ago as a refugee, uh, from China. I was in a refugee camp in China and and I think it's very important and I want to encourage you guys, especially from the Green Party to force or to create a policy in relation to the refugee quota to force to specifically allocate a percentage for LGBTI refugees accepted into New Zealand. Because it's it's sad to see [01:17:00] that when I came to New Zealand, I was the first ever transgender or gender diverse person accepted as a refugee. That was for me, shocking when we are easily the most vulnerable segments of any society and I mean right now Syria is having such a very difficult time. I'm sure that a transgender person interest as gay lesbian within this conflict is 1000 times more vulnerable to any sort of things and and we are not [01:17:30] paying attention to those refugees. You know, we just pay attention to something else. We are fighting here for being, you know, for equality, for the right to be represented, protected. But we are ignoring those ones who are really having a terrible time because even when we are refugees and we are in a refugee camp, you cannot imagine what is to be a refugee within refugees because that's what we have. We have to suffer the most disgusting treatment within a refugee camp and many things that I will discuss later But, [01:18:00] you know, I just really want you guys to focus on that and also assist refugees that are already resettled in New Zealand, especially LGBTI to get their lives back. Because, for instance, I am a stateless as as Jack was mentioning that many people have problems like I'm not a New Zealand citizen. I have New Zealand permanent residency. I lost my citizenship for all these stupid things. Bureaucratic ignorance related to my gender, my gender identity. I'm here in New Zealand. This is the only place I can live and [01:18:30] stay, and I don't have a passport. If I want to have a surgery, I need to first be a citizen, then to have a passport, then to travel to Thailand to have my sex correction surgery. And I don't think it's fair. It's not fair that I have to do such a thing just first becoming a New Zealand citizen. So and then you have the money, the funds to then go to Thailand. You know all these kind of limitations that many refugees face. And just lately I saw that Luisa Wall was the one that was advocating [01:19:00] for the the marriage bill, and I got married here with my husband. Um, it was really a beautiful moment to marry my husband. And just it was shocking that when I marry my husband, people don't even know if it's considered a same sex marriage. It's like because you know, I'm intersect. So how do you really? There's no way to identify this marriage is like a marriage. But they put my my name, my my name of my birth certificate in my marriage [01:19:30] certificate. And I'm I'm ashamed to showing one of the most beautiful moments of my life. I'm afraid to To share to everyone I cannot share. I cannot share to my family, the family of my husband or someone else. My birth, my marriage certificate just because my name is there. So all these things beautiful job you did. But look, all these blanks, you know, that create these kind of things where you are getting someone ashamed. Ok, thank you so much. [01:20:00] Thank you. Please, just briefly, I'll keep my my summing up. Very brief. Um, but very briefly. Is there any response to the issue of LGBTI refugees and any commitments? Any questions? No, Um I just wanted to say I have been working with, um, a human rights advocate in Australia. Um, that, uh, there are, um, LGBTI, uh, people, [01:20:30] um, in Nauru. And, um, actually, I had a talk to Jill about this earlier. I'm going to see Dame Susan, who I think has been really strident, and, um, advocating not only for increased, uh, refugee quota for New Zealand, but also that, uh, human rights issues, uh, should be part of the criteria for who we take. Um, but I do want to say we don't, um, specify who [01:21:00] we take I. I said on the Foreign Affairs Committee last year, and there were quite a few Christian groups, um, in a petition for us to take Christians specifically from Syria because of the persecution. But in New Zealand, our position is never to identify who we take, but, uh, we can take different groups based on the circumstances and through human rights considerations, which I support 100%. Unless there [01:21:30] is something pressing. I'm going to say thank you so much to, um, Eliana for her presentation to the panellists for their response. Please give very good and thank you. Um, I'm going to do a very brief summing up. I'm gonna cut that short because I had a pretty pretty busy opening. Um, so I'm not going to talk. I'm not going to summarise the issues that have been raised. You've heard them all these will be included in the the report [01:22:00] that goes to the conference organisers and will feed into ongoing work. Um, what I will briefly reflect on is the process and some of the things that I've taken from the submitters about the process one and from the panellists. Actually, as Lewis has said, we have the access. We've got the community, the commission, the cross parliamentary group. We should be able to do something with that alliance. We need to move forward together, Um, process from the communities. Uh, nothing about [01:22:30] us without us. Um, that's a critical element on the way forward. And please don't forget and in fact reference and give honour to the work that's already been done because it's still relevant. OK, it's not just reports sitting on a shelf somewhere, Uh, and so when we bring up another issue, there's already work that's been done. Um, and it's not just about legislation, but it's about how the rules are actually applied. And what can we do to work together on [01:23:00] that element of things as well? I'd like to thank you all for being here, taking part in this as the audience, but in particular I'd like to thank you who were the submitters that put a huge amount of effort into bringing the issues up before our panel. Thank you very much for that. It's It's very brave staff to actually nail colour the mask and stand up in front of your peers and in front of a parliamentary group. So well done. Thank you. [01:23:30] And thank you very, very much to our panellists. David Seymour, Dennis O'Rourke, Lesa Wall Doctor, Jackie Blue and Kevin Hague. Please give them a wonderful round of applause.

IRN: 1008
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/renato_sabbadini_proud_2016.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004413
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089707
TITLE: Renato Sabbadini - Proud 2016
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Renato Sabbadini
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1970s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Helen Kennedy; International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association (ILGA); Māori; Pride; Pride parade; Proud 2016 (Wellington); Renato Sabbadini; University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine; Wellington; activism; binary; bisexual; body diversity; cis; community; diversity; freedom; gay; gender expression; gender identity; identity; intersectionality; intersex; intersex phobia; lesbian; pride; sexual identity; sexual orientation; takatāpui; transgender; travel
DATE: 11 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine, Mein Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the opening address of ILGA Executive Director Renato Sabbadini at the 2nd ILGA Oceania Rainbow Human Rights and Health Conference, held in Wellington 9-12 March 2016. Please note Renato's speech was re-recorded without an audience a couple of days after the opening event.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Many thanks, man. And I'm proud and honoured to speak in front of you here [00:00:30] today, the last land of earth to be reached by human beings but before being reached by human beings, this land was the land of birds birds which had reached these shores untouched by mammals, apart from to bat species And in this mammals free environment, birds were able to evolve and flourish for a million of years, filling all the niches of their ecosystem. [00:01:00] I think that this land of birds is a very fitting place for the second Hania Conference. Because it means that Goiania is really ready to take off and that the sky is the limit is the smallest of the Iga regions. But do not let this fact fool you for a single moment. As we say in Italian, the best wine is to be found in the smallest fats. [00:01:30] Thanks to a board of hardworking people led by Iman Brown and Cori has really began to flourish and to address its unique challenges, a huge expense punctuated by small to medium sized groups in a mix of promising advances and pockets of enduring homophobia, transphobia and intersex phobia between marriage, equality [00:02:00] and criminalization of same sex sexual acts between consenting adults. Between recognition of more than two gender options on the passport and fight against enduring gender based prejudice between the recovery of ancient wisdom and mana and fight against the bitter legacy of colonialism, you are laying the foundations of a new world where social justice for all and personal freedom for everyone live side [00:02:30] by side. An epic effort and one that in its regional scale reflects and mirrors the same efforts taking place at a global scale needs your energy and your experience while welcoming you in a global community of like minded spirits, comrades and friends. Since 1978 LGBTI organisations have been gathering in increasing [00:03:00] numbers and with increasing diversity at first only in the global north, then spreading gradually in the global south to find in el a platform where to share experiences, practises and knowledge and above all to decide altogether as to the direction the global LGBT movement should take in order to advance equality and freedom for all human beings, regardless of their sexual orientation, [00:03:30] gender identity and gender expression, bodily diversity and sex characteristics. This is, in essence, what is all about having the movement speak to the world by itself and for itself. No think tank talk, no mediation by experts. We assert our right to stake our claims on our own. Anything else, anything less [00:04:00] will not do. No liberation movement in history has ever contented itself with others representing its points of view and claims by experience. We know that change only starts when we take the floor. As our co secretary general, Helen Kennedy, loves to say, If you're not at the dinner table, you are on the menu and we don't want to be talked about, do we? We want to be [00:04:30] talked to and to talk back the liberation movement of lesbians. Trans gay, bisexual, intersex. Queer people can only be true to its mission if it speaks by itself for itself and on its own terms. By coming together by joining forces by having everyone stating their needs and dreams for a better world, we gain the strength and courage to remind everyone else [00:05:00] that the state of the world is unacceptable as long as the discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression, bodily diversity and sex characteristics continues is what it says. It is the only democratically organised World Federation of LGBTI organisation that has the legitimacy to represent the voices it represents. [00:05:30] Our diversity is not a hindrance, but our strength. Our multitude is not an impediment but the source of our legitimacy. As the global movement grows stronger every day and the plurality of our voices is more and more enriched by our diversity, some of us might question the need of working altogether in a world organisation. Shouldn't each of us focus [00:06:00] on our own specific battles instead? At the end of the day, what could the German lesbian and the Indian possibly have in common? What has intersex got to do with sexual orientation? Are we all together for a reason, or is it just an accident of history? Don't we risk confusing the public about our own individual identities if we march altogether at the Pride Parade? [00:06:30] Quite often, this kind of objections comes also from the general population, when the same people who adore the well of gay couple living next door are disturbed by the presence of a person whose appearance does not correspond to the gender image. Ex expectation of their culture. The first answer to this kind of objections is very banal. United. We are much stronger [00:07:00] than if we were to proceed, separated from one another. But I believe that you know that there is a much better and more convincing answer, one that goes at the heart of what we all truly share. Let's go back to the discomfort of the sis person facing a trans person. We all at one moment or another of our life or throughout the whole of our lives, have had this wanted [00:07:30] or unwanted power to put a normal interlocutor in a position of discomfort in their world. Built on apparently stronger, strongly certainties based on the binary dichotomy male, female man, woman in their world, we have the power to bring a moment of chaos through the very existence of our bodies and what we do with them. We have the power to challenge at its [00:08:00] foundation the narrative that prescribes what it means to be a real man and a real woman. I think this is wonderful. This is our magic. This is our gift from the gods. We have the power to force people to question themselves. And this power is good because it is only by questioning ourselves and by having others question themselves, that we can grow as individuals [00:08:30] and as society, whether we know it or not, whether we realise it or not. We are social engineers, social alchemists who teach people that nature. Human nature is far richer and more complex than one was brought up to think. Yes, we take away certainties, but we offer new possibilities. It is a gift. It is our gift. [00:09:00] But it's very often also occurs. Most people, especially in extenuating circumstances, especially when material welfare becomes very uncertain, don't like to be challenged on the one thing they've always known to be true. That you are born either male or female, and that a nice script is ready for you to play, depending on what gender you were assigned at birth. The [00:09:30] world is too uncertain for them as it is for them to question themselves, and I insist on their questioning themselves bit because don't let anyone fool you. It is never a matter of accepting someone else's diversity. It is always a matter of what the diversity of the other says about myself. so our gift is very often unwelcome. And that's one more reason [00:10:00] for us to stay together, not only to comfort each other, to heal the pain our diverse diversity brings to us, but also to vaccine ourselves against the possibility of discriminating against each other. Because some of us are so desperate for recognition by society that as soon as we obtain a shadow of respectability, we don't think twice about dumping those comrades we feel might embarrass [00:10:30] us, especially if we associate it with them. We were born and raised in societies which lean on the binary, and the temptation to yield to new binaries we've created for ourselves is tempting. This does not go only in relation to differences among us with regard to our bodies, our identities in terms of sexual orientation or gender. This goes also for us truly understand understanding [00:11:00] the concept of intersectionality for us to be able to question our own assumptions in relation to ethnicity. Faith class culture belonging to a minority does not unfortunately automatically endow someone with the ability to empathise with other minorities. We have all suffered from this at one moment or the other in our lives, as we were [00:11:30] rejected by someone who we assumed would have accepted us because of their history of suffering, most probably at one moment or the other of our lives. We have also been on the other end of the bargain as we felt lack of empathy with someone who belonged to a minority, almost deserving the discrimination they were subjected to again. We are born and raised in a society which is awash [00:12:00] with all sorts of prejudices. To identify the prejudices that we have absorbed unconsciously is perhaps the most difficult job. That's why joining LGA and meeting such an extraordinarily rich diversity of people represents a great opportunity to explore, question and fight our own prejudices. At times, people outside of the LGBTI movement find our endless debates [00:12:30] and soul searching about identity identities tiring and abstract and practical and difficult to communicate to the outside world. I, for one, find this aspect of our being together one of the most enriching experiences of my life. We are perhaps slow in our decision making, but that's what real democracy is all about because we want to make sure that everyone has had the chance to speak their mind. [00:13:00] At the same time, we are forging the future of the societies where we want to live. The level of reflection in our debates is light years ahead of other civil society organisation, not to mention public bodies. We must be proud of that. I would like to finish with an analogy. As I was flying here the 18,000 kilometres from Geneva to Wellington, the longest trip [00:13:30] of my life, I was shocked at the size of our planet. In today's world of Internet, we may easily feel that distances are shrinking and collapsing. What a sobering and healthy experience it is to see and feel that we are truly small compared to the earth. As I was flying, I was also reflecting on the fact that this travel is nothing compared [00:14:00] to the travel by sea. The Maori undertook to come here 1200 years ago. They must have travelled distances that today we could only compare with interplanetary travel. If it's not a bold I'd like to think of as a of people joining forces to reach a new land, A better world that one than the one that we left behind us. Will [00:14:30] we reach our new a land where we finally find the peace and harmony of a society that knows no hatred, no discrimination, difficult to say and difficult to know if any of us here today will do, the trip might be very long. Perhaps only the Children of our Children will eventually land on those shores. At the same time, I'm grateful to be in this giant flotilla with all of you [00:15:00] who knows the answer may lie in the travel rather than the destination. Thank you all very much.

IRN: 1032
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/trans_hui_report_back_proud_2016.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004430
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089724
TITLE: Trans* hui report-back - Proud 2016
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Eliana Rubashkyn; Sally Dellow
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Adams Bruce Ltd chocolate factory; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bella Simpson; Eliana Rubashkyn; Elizabeth Kerekere; International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association (ILGA); Joey Siosaia Joleen Mataele; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Pacific; Pasifika; Preservatorium Cafe and Cannery (Wellington); Proud 2016 (Wellington); Sally Dellow; Tīwhanawhana; University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine; Wellington; ainga; bisexual; climate change; culture; diversity; elders; fa'afafine; fakaleiti; family; health; hormone treatment; hui; intersectionality; intersex; language; marriage equality; queer; safe sex; school; trans; trans awareness; trans families; transgender; waiata; youth
DATE: 11 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine, Mein Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the Trans* pre-conference hui report-back. The hui was held at Preservatorium Cafe and Cannery, Te Aro on 9 March 2016.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I had a bit of a panic on Monday. I found out we were gonna, um, had two venues for the transfer. It was free to anyone who could come along. And we're gonna, um we had the preservative and cafe in Cannery. We had them lined up for the morning. We're gonna go to Thistle Hall in the afternoon. Got told on monday about lunch time. Um, no, you can't have this. The floor has been damaged and it needs to be fixed, and they're going to do the work on Wednesday. Yeah. [00:00:30] So I rang the observatory and they said, No, no problem. You can have that have that auditorium for the whole day. So, you know, you have these little panics when you're preparing conferences and and this one, we solved it really simple and really quickly, but I'm worth it. When I was organising because it was free and we didn't have registration, I didn't know how many people were gonna turn up. And on the day, we had probably about 40 people over the course of the day, 50 because some people came and went, and the thing that struck [00:01:00] me was our diversity. Our diversity across age. We had the youth, the vitality and the enthusiasm of the youth, and we had the wisdom and the knowledge and the experience and the skills of so we had the diversity across age. We had the diversity across cultures, and [00:01:30] we head to do a welcome for us. And as part of our Maori welcome. There's always a and thank you. And what really struck me is something really beautiful. Is the Pacific people that were at the at that said, Hey, we've got to sing back And I had all these young trans people, [00:02:00] intersex people and queer people, all young actors in New Zealand standing up and trying to sing how great they are. I don't know the words, but it's just that intersection across cultures. And the other thing was the other intersection, age, culture and identity. [00:02:30] We talk about being Trans, but in actual fact, language is dynamic. And the thing that strikes me is the language that is changing continues to change. Um, maybe trans is not inclusive enough anymore. We need a new language and we're reinventing the language. How do we include intersex people who are part of our community and make them visible. How do we include black people who are part of our community and make them visible? [00:03:00] And our strength is actually not in our what brings us together in our sameness. It's actually our diversity. That's our strength. So we talked about some, We had some issues. We talked about trans rights. And the thing that struck me in New Zealand was celebrating marriage Equality. Yeah. Great talk. Got some feedback from our, um, from the Pacific. Hey, when we go to talk to our government and we [00:03:30] want to, um, talk about an issue, maybe it's, um, promoting condom use and safe sex. Um, maybe it's about setting up some resources in schools that they're kind of telling. Why circle back as what you really want Is marriage equality? No. We want educational schools. Know what you want is marriage. What you really want is marriage equality. Forgive you. This you're gonna keep going until you get marriage equality. So it's kind of a a slippery slope, and it's kind of we're celebrating marriage equality, [00:04:00] but we actually created a problem in the Pacific. Um, you've heard us talk about some of the health issues yesterday at the at the so I'm not gonna go over that same ground again. Um, we had presentations from youth again. Um, that's ground we've covered already. So I'm not going to go over it. Um, something else that we sort of didn't have a chance to talk about is trans families. [00:04:30] And this is, you think transgender we're talking about. We're talking about transparent, who have young Children who go to school like I do and interacting as a trans adult as a parent with the school and making sure my kids are not bullied, they're not beaten up, But, um, they get a fair chance to an education and that I'm here. We have now have parents who are raising trans Children. So [00:05:00] in the primary school system in the secondary school system, how do we ensure that those kids are safe? And then the other aspect of trans families is my family of origin? How do I deal with issues that I have been trans with my family of origin and we talk about families? It's not. It's not one thing. It's a diversity. And again I come back to the health. The health is a diverse. We talk specifically about our needs trans [00:05:30] health needs. But there's also, um when we go to the doctor, Um, just for general medical care. Are you Trans? Oh, sorry. I'm not gonna see you, but this kind of being taken seriously as a trans person and having my needs taken seriously, um, so that's kind of my brief take on the on the So I'd like to open the floor to questions, and what I'm gonna do, as I said, is, [00:06:00] um, pass the microphone to people I think are better able to answer than I am. So does anyone have any questions? Oh, no. OK, well, instead of maybe if you're shy for asking questions, I'm actually gonna pick out some people and ask them to speak briefly about their experience of the so anyone else at the Trans who they'd like [00:06:30] to speak. And they put their hand up. I think one of the one of the experience, um, from first of all was the outcome of the actual, um uh I know everybody's turning their heads and it's very uncomfortable. They need to try and get down with his heels. It's so hard to [00:07:00] see a woman, and it's so easy to get dry clean. All right. Um, I think the first thing that that got my attention was the outcome, Uh, the ability to, um of the hosts of the Trans. Um, uh, because [00:07:30] before we even came here and with all the emails that went through, I could feel the frustrations that was going on. And, um and I kept saying to myself, This has to happen because this is the first Pacific, uh, Trans, uh, pre conference pre Trans, who that that has ever been held for a specific in the Oceania field. [00:08:00] And, um and I was impressed with the outcome because we got to, um, share more with not just the trans women. I'm so used to the trans women, you know, but having the trans men with us and some of the ones that that are just experiencing the first time being a trans person, you know, with all the transitions and all that, because [00:08:30] it's a it's It's quite an experience for us from the Pacific, because we don't use that word transgender. You know, we don't really know, um, the differences, because when when you're at home, you're asked what is transgender? You know, when we turn around and say it in public or explain it in public, they all turn around and say What is transgender? What is What's the difference between gay? I thought gay, lesbian Trans is all the same. It's all gay, [00:09:00] you know? And, um and I it's actually it's a good more in education for us to actually learn from each other, especially from the Oceania. Um that we have all the problems and all the issues that the Europeans are going through, you know? And, um, one thing that I that I have learned is being open, being open to each other and being able [00:09:30] to tell our stories comfortably in that arena. And I and I put my head up to Sally everybody that put this together because, um, I keep thinking, OK, should I do this in Tonga? Should to be hosting the next year. But thinking back of what happened in to with our conference with our Pacific Conference, I'm like, OK, OK, what am [00:10:00] I gonna do? Uh, next two years I should be lobbying and talking to more of these church pathetic, shut minded that we have, uh, I should be saying closed minded, but, yeah, it's totally shut, but yeah, I. I think that's all I wanted to say. But thank you very much. I would just like to make a point about language. The word homosexual [00:10:30] first appeared about. I think the first known reference to it in written language is about 18. 60. Trans appeared, I think about 1900. Transsexual 1950. Transgender appeared about 1990. Um, the words are Pacific and Polynesian. Um, community Jews. And I apologise, I. I don't know the rest, but they have been part of those languages for hundreds of years. [00:11:00] So for us to talk about being trans and try and impose it on our community that have their own language, their own culture, their own terms that are much older than what we have as a culture, Um, we actually need to learn from you. Um hi, everyone. Good morning. Um, I know. I'm so sorry. I'm, um [00:11:30] So I just wanted to share a few things with everyone about the trans week that just happened. Or the pre pre conference, um, and some things for for maybe everybody here to think about the next time you engage, um, with LGBTI from the Pacific. The first thing is, um, that that probably didn't get mentioned in the and I want to mention it. Here is the issue of relevance. [00:12:00] Um, we're all kind of like talking about LGBTI rights and what's important. The decriminalisation of homosexuality, which is really, really important in the human rights, um, framework, the, um, issue of marriage equality, which is really important in in in the human rights framework and the and and and the struggle. Um, but for us, what's relevant for us? What's culturally relevant for us is none of those things. In the Pacific, it's none of those [00:12:30] things because when your country is being wiped away by the rising tides of the Pacific, human rights don't really matter to us. They don't really matter. I mean, you're looking at a country like Kiribati which is going to be underwater. In about 20 years, that country has actually bought land in another country, Fiji, to transplant a whole country and its culture into another country. They're now also looking at Saudi Arabia, you know, doing a deal, a deal [00:13:00] in Dubai to try and buy more land to transplant that country. So in in the in the overall spectrum of struggles for human rights, we just want you to be aware that there are more pressing needs for us in terms of our struggle for, for, for, for, for survival in the middle of the Pacific. You know, um, rising tides is a mess. Environment is a massive issue. The other thing that I also want to point to your attention is the new buzzword [00:13:30] in, In, in in LGBTI, um, struggle is the issue of Intersectionality. And let me let me tell you how that's relevant to us in the Pacific. For us in the Pacific, it it is about the or the family. That's the cornerstone of every Pacific Islander. Um, Polynesian, Melania. It's all it all relates back to the family. The concept that we have a family is completely different to the Caucasian or Western concept, which is you have a nuclear family and we have an extended family which basically means your [00:14:00] whole country is your is your family. Um, when one part of that family is hurt and upset, everybody is hurt and upset, and it's really really, really important. I think, um, Elizabeth um, mentioned that yesterday in her presentation about and and the whole framework for in New Zealand. It's really important for you to understand that for us, culture is really, really about who we are. And from a cultural from a cultural perspective, you know, going [00:14:30] out and and upsetting our members of our family to try and get ahead. Um, in terms of it, it it we struggle with that on a daily basis. Human rights, by their very definition, are very selfish. You know, if you think about it, human rights is about you as a human being. But for us, from a cultural perspective. No, it's not about us as human beings. It is about us as a conjoined extended family. And this is really it's a really important concept to grasp. We're [00:15:00] not saying that. No, we're trying to be different now, away from human rights. No, no, no, no. Really important in your environment. But in my environment, when I say to my family, this is for me, Mum, my mum will smack me with a two by four and say, Excuse me. What about your cousin? That's like, just you know what I mean? We worry about everybody else. That's the And I want everybody to be aware of that when you're when you're when you're con contextualising. The struggle for LGBTI in the Pacific It's about that struggle from us from a cultural [00:15:30] perspective, which is really, really important for us. It's the last thing that I wanted to share is it was really, really important for me to be here to watch all the young trains come up and they struggle. You know, um, especially, uh, like New Zealand trains. Um, for us in the Pacific, we see things differently. You and your struggle. You're walking on a sealed road at 10 a. m. with some shade, you know, and no shoes. It's really [00:16:00] not that bad. It's the surface is even you. You get a few ants crawling on the road and all that kind of stuff A little bit of rain here in some paddles for us. We're walking right alongside you walking the same journey on a coral side road, right, with no shoes in the middle of the day and no shade completely different, different perspective for us. I, I tell you now don't really want hormones. That's not That's the least thing on our priority. We don't we? We maybe for one or two of us, Yeah, but [00:16:30] we're going to now take the whole struggle and fight for that one individual's hormones. No, it's important for us to keep that in perspective. The other thing, that's really, really important for everybody. And I know I've taken up too much time now is is not just it's not just the hormones and I raise this at the about the issue of marriage equality. Now you gotta remember for you here in New Zealand almost 30 years later from from homosexual law reform, you finally got marriage equality sa moa um [00:17:00] legalised same sex relations in 2013. Do not ever bring it up in my presence. Unless 30 years from now, then we can talk about it. You know what I mean? Because we you guys, you guys like, for for us it's like, Well, how come the Kiwis got it 30 30 years later, it took them 30 years to get marriage equality and now they're pushing with the Pacific. Do it now. Do it now. Do it Now you gotta have marriage equality. Now you know it takes time. It takes time for us. We've only just allowed [00:17:30] same sex relations in our Crimes Act. We only have yet Sure, sodomy is still criminalised and that's something that we need to take out. But same sex relations between consenting adults with a male or female in Samoa over the age of 18 is allowed under the Crimes Act. And if you all are interested in that, come and see me and I'll tell you about that also, the other thing I wanted to mention is 2002. We had the, um birth deaths and marriages act in Samoa 2002 way before any other country in the Pacific. And the wording of that act specifically [00:18:00] states that any Samoan, any Samoan citizen that is born, that is married overseas in a jurisdiction that allows and solemnise that marriage can go back to Samoa and have their marriage registered and recognised in Samoa 2002, 2002, there's a piece of legislation in Samoa that's current at the moment. Maybe they never thought that it was going to apply to gay marriage or marriage equality. But it's there. But do you think we jump up and down about it [00:18:30] and say, Oh, yeah, it's gonna get No, no, because of that cultural umbrella that we all live under that we don't really want to piss off your auntie or your grandmother or your uncle who's a priest or something like that. Look, we're happy where we are. Our lived experiences say that we thrive where we are, you know, And let's just all we're doing is we come to these and we take what's important and we say, You know what? That's important. That's relevant. Let's focus on that. Let's go. And you know, like youth like Bella. Oh, my God, like amazing. [00:19:00] You know, I want her to come to to our next human right conference and speak about the young transgender and so that she can share her story like those things are important to us because, you know, ultimately, at the end of the day, it's all about us as individuals. So I just wanted to say Sally, thank you so much. Um, and man who is also in in the in the organisation of the of the pre conference. Thank you so much for providing the opportunity for the Pacific to speak. And on that note, I'm just going to say [00:19:30] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, one of the other issues that come up with the transfer was how we intersect with under six people, and we're just going to offer a moment for to speak to them. So it was still importing, [00:20:00] uh, knowledge, our system of inter because we a knowledge and we even now part of the LGBTI think you know. But it's also to acknowledge the intersectionality between all those identities. And I was trying to point out that that there's trans people that they are intersect because it's always been focused in male to female female to male sense. But it's also intersex to female and intersex to male. Or so it's just bringing out [00:20:30] of a new, uh, thing that has been hidden or not accepted. And and it was interesting to find that I'm not only trans intersect, that it was in a of trans intersex person, and it was nice for me just to find out that that we need to appreciate more of this diversity in that the health issues are important to all of us. But every individual has a specific needs, and we as people have more difficult situation. I mean, we have more difficult health issues, uh, to [00:21:00] deal with. So it's it's It's to understand that we are a community not to dis or trying to use labels to place you in like where you have to be. It's just about being a community and fight for the right person. You want not leaving everyone behind. Not no one should be. We all should be in the same level of, you know, of to help. Yeah. Thank you. [00:21:30] Thank you. And I'm so proud. Um, and doesn't have a session itself. This conference we will next time because there's enough of us to do that. So very proud moment. OK, I'm gonna wrap this up to the report back because I'm aware that we've got our Pacific scholars speaking next, and [00:22:00] I would like them to have, um, the full amount of time possible to speak to their issues. So thank you.

IRN: 1034
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089723
TITLE: ILGA scholars plenary - Proud 2016
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VOICES: Elizabeth Taylor; Gigi Baxter; Isikeli Vulavou; Ken Moala; So'oalo To'oto'oali'i Roger Stanley; Sulique Waqa; Sulivenusi Waqa
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Chris Gendall; Elizabeth Kerekere; Elizabeth Taylor; Fiji; Gigi Baxter; Grindr; Haus of Khameleon (Fiji); ILGA World; Iceland; International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association (ILGA); Isikeli Vulavou; Kapul Champion and Friends Frangipani Inc; Kapul Champions (Papua New Guinea); Ken Moala; Louisa Wall; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Māori Television; Pacific; Pacific Islands Forum; Papua New Guinea; Pasifika; Rawa Karetai; Samoa; Samoa Fa'afafine Association; So'oalo To'oto'oali'i Roger Stanley; South Africa; Sulique Waqa; Sulivenusi Waqa; University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine; VPrideFoundation (Vanuatu); Vanuatu; Wellington; activism; aged care; bisexual; climate change; coming out; commercial culture; cyclone; discrimination; diversity; elders; fa'afafine; gay; gender expression; gender identity; identity; interfaith; lesbian; marriage equality; police; politics; religion; spirituality; stigma; transgender; transition; xenophobia; youth
DATE: 11 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine, Mein Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the ILGA scholars plenary session.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Bolivia, Everyone. I'm Soli from the Fiji Islands. I'm with the house of Chameleon, A transgender activist and feminist human rights defender in Fiji. I'm also, uh, the youngest board member of the Oceania, and it's a a privilege to be here. It's wonderful to be here, thanks to a world for funding us to be able to participate in this regional conference. And we're looking forward to more engagement in the next few Well, the rest of the days, as well as getting to know more [00:00:30] and contributing to some of the outcomes of this, uh, conference what? Now you have to introduce some of us well, and I'm from, uh and I am also a board member of P A and first and foremost, I must acknowledge and, [00:01:00] um, his special thanks to the world, the Rainbow Organisation and all the organising organisations for having this conference, um, happening and for getting us all the way from thousands of miles away over the seas to to actually be here. And for us it's real, Um, a real, um, great opportunity for us to actually be here and to get the exposure and [00:01:30] also to learn, as we learned from what has been going on through this, um, couple of days. I am currently the president of the Samoa, a female association. This year marks our 10th year anniversary since we first started back in 1996. And in 1996 when we first launched our organisation, Um, I just, uh, secret handedly went up and invited the our [00:02:00] prime minister to become our patron. So he has always been our patient for the last 10 years. So, Peter, for the 10th to 60 years is not very easy. And I've always, um, trying to, um hopefully in our next, uh, a GM, I will step down. And because there are a lot of other person, so who can I'm sure they can do the job much better than me and, um, Iman. And [00:02:30] like I said, sometimes before I is our technical advice for our executive back home. So she has. I'm glad that she has shared some of the stuff that has been going on back home with our current work, especially with our, um, the submission to the changes in legislation that is the real milestone and the real achievement for us. And, uh we do have, um, a couple of difficulties that I face that the real challenges back home is [00:03:00] that we do have a 54 years strategic plan that we love. We eagerly get revised every four years, but it's not happening at all, simply because we, um the lack of funds and the opportunities for us to actually submit proposals to development partners. But we will take it one step at a time. We take things easy. We do a Pacific way because we don't want to rush everything all at once, and then we might get [00:03:30] closed down in the very next year. So, um, being here for me personally, I i it it's really, um I'm grateful I'm grateful for for for the opportunity to actually be here in Wellington and to actually attend all the sessions. Like I said, um, because of all this, um, I'm amazed with, um the diversity of sexuality that I actually get to experience get to see, because back home and [00:04:00] I you know, I've been born racist, some where I can only see it either you or your so lesbian or but, um, in my line of work, I was Also, I must say that I'm also in my own transition. I must tell you later. I'm not transition like I've always been a of my life, but my transition really, that I am to lobby without government [00:04:30] since we have just last week. So the fourth of March, that was our general election. And our the government has been, uh, as one and been back to power. So my transition is that since there, um uh, because of our culture, our religion and our patrons not really into the idea of sex marriage, that would be my transition this year when I go back, now he's back into power That will lobby for for [00:05:00] that same sex marriage to for him to actually support it. And for who knows, maybe someone will actually, uh, falling into the idea of sames marriage. Hopefully very soon. So that is my transition. But, um, also, it's just a personal thing. Personal matter, that at some moment, sometimes in life, we need to get our politicians a little bit more uncomfortable. I think [00:05:30] that's the only way that they can actually do something for us. Because at the moment we can not only rely on our our smooth writing, You know, at the moment that we always say And it's for me too, that I always preach this Don't fix it when it's not broken He always said that because we kept on writing, You know, in Samoa we we will live in harmony and I always say, Go back where you're from For those who are coming from advocates for all this stuff the rise of LGBTI know And [00:06:00] I'm also a strong person telling these people get back to go back to where you're from. We are not identified. We are not, um, being characterised with your medical terms and put us into process. See, that's that was that was me, I reckon, because all my beliefs that I have, But we cannot always sit back and relax and even my and, you know, let the world go around. I reckon [00:06:30] that being here is actually an eye opener. It really opens up my eyes, opens up my head, and I think it's also time to move on and actually lobby for our politicians, our leaders that hello, I reckon we shall follow what the UN is saying. What they are loving for us to do, which is one of the priorities. Same same sex marriage. Um, because, uh, we you know, no matter what happens, we there are sexual diversity [00:07:00] that leads all this real revolution is Actually, it's in Samoa. It's actually there. But it's just a matter of all these people not coming out. So I cannot always try and be the champion. But I would like that everybody is included, meaning inclusive for all the other in closet for boys that are anticipate himself as gay but do not have somewhere to belong to. I encourage [00:07:30] them to come out and join me. So things are good things coming away. But, uh, it's just a matter of us trying to looking at the at the perfect time. You know, we always trying to find that very moment when our our but that's when our politicians are in a good mood. But that's the the way to do it. I think it's that it's always in our strategy for development of S a MA, which is our number one [00:08:00] C for development document. All these issues are not included, so I was happy because even without you want to go one more minute. The most important thing from my transition. Remember, One moment we have, uh we can talk on that, but we have to give time for the others to do the introduce [00:08:30] their issues. Ask a question. Yeah. You're most welcome to ask me any questions. I'll be here till Sunday, and I'm leaving at romance. 304 with a couple of the girls here. Six of us in one room. Um, one thing I would like to leave it with you is that, uh, please, we would love to have our own Pacific. You not. [00:09:00] Thank you, Elizabeth. Tell her, uh, good morning. Uh, my name is I'm from Papua New Guinea. I'm representing Couple Champion, which is the only organisation that works with, um uh, men with diverse sexuality and transgender people in the country. Um, [00:09:30] we advocate and I advocate for the rights of, uh, G BT I people in the country. So far, we've been doing lots of human rights work along the coastal areas of Papua New Guinea, and we've seen that there has been some good outcome of it. But we had to work towards the inland where there is lots of culture and religious thing, and all those are still taboo of about, um, same sex [00:10:00] relationships. So we're still working on it, and we are getting there. So it's been so privileged to be here and learn from other delegates in the South. Um, um, I have learned lots in terms of, uh, all issues. I think one way or the other, all issues are related to each other. So once again, uh, thanks to and the for giving us question without them, I think I won't be here. So once again, um, it's [00:10:30] good that I also said some of my, um, uh, human right issues, um, already in other sessions. And I'm here to share with any one of you. If you want to learn more about what it is like in Papua New Guinea, please come forward and just interrupt me. Anyway, thank you very much. I am from the Republic of Vanuatu. My name is Julia Baxter, [00:11:00] but please call me GG. Um, I'll be talking about Well, what I do back home in Vanuatu is, um, mobilising the youth of, um well, MS MS men who have sex with men, transgender gay and lesbians. Um, a little bit of bisexuals. And, um yeah. So what we do is do do do activities to mobilise them and to help them [00:11:30] to, um, in empowerment. And, um um, also with economic empowerment. Um, first of all, the group that we, um we do, uh, well, the group that we're in but I lead in Vanuatu is called pride. Um, foundation is a project under small bank who that is the biggest, um, local NGO back home in Vanuatu. And, um, because of the high rate of illiteracy in Vanuatu, a lot of, [00:12:00] um, young ones who do not go to education, we feel like engaging with the community. Um is very hard, and it's quite a challenge because of the technologies that we use up here in in our technical level. And the theory level is very hard to communicate and integrate with the grassroots. So we use TV shows like Life Patrol that is aired also here in New Zealand and Maori TV and um other theatre play to get the message across to the community, and it creates a dialogue [00:12:30] that makes them to understand the issues of LGBT persons and even other issues related to health of, um, risk behaviour sexual, um, HIV and STIs. Um, also with a session that I attended yesterday in the afternoon with Elizabeth. Um, I really, really enjoy that, because I believe that we are not whole or complete if we have some missing of our cultural identity, and it [00:13:00] kind of, like, encouraged and empowered me to go back to my country and to further dig on to the past of my history to trace that identity that is missing We have evidence in dialogue or the, um, How to say this. Like the stories passed down from generation to generation, about the existence of LGBT community. And in my country, they, um, LGBT warriors that exist back in, uh, in the days, [00:13:30] Um, so those are are, um a very important, uh, things that I, um I've learned so far in the, um, in this conference in the last two days. Uh, lastly, with the foundation, we use peer education. Um, with the members, we train the members to build up the capacity to go out into the communities and to engage and to advocate the issues within the communities. [00:14:00] In that way, we find that, um, it helps build up relationship and reduce the stigma and discrimination. Now, with my has mentioned earlier that we have, um a very strong cultural, um, connection amongst others. And in Vanuatu, we have a lot of respect because of our cultural values. Um, but with the Western influence, or in other words, um, colonisation it kind of, um oh, the word. [00:14:30] It kind of wiped out all that because of the different diversities that we have. So we feel that getting with peer education within the communities will kind of indirectly sensitise the community to understand our issues. This is where we build up the relationship with the communities from the lower level, and we slowly climb up the stairs. So, um, also because we find that there is discrimination amongst the community itself. I will [00:15:00] continue to speak of this because I want our other Pacific sisters and brothers to know that in our own country the stigma discrimination is in our own community. People who are successful, our graduates, they do not assist or help us support others who are on the grassroots level. How are they supposed to come to become themselves? empowered without the help or the support of the people up there. Therefore, this gap [00:15:30] there there is a gap between within our own communities. And I feel that, um, being in this conference as well will assist as well Give me the knowledge or the capacity to, um, engage with the people who are up there at that level to, um, to support the young ones. I think that's all. If you have any questions, please do ask. Thank you very much. Thank you. I'm just gonna briefly talk about the situation of Fiji [00:16:00] at the moment. We are currently under a state of emergency following the devastation of Cyclone Winston that hit the country a few days back. And Fiji, We only go through, uh, a state of emergency in under two occasions. First under the military takeover coup. Second is during the so the cycle was very devastating in terms of the destruction it had in Fiji. It is. It was recorded [00:16:30] the strongest ever cyclone in the Southern Hemisphere. It is second as well to the strongest cyclone ever in the world. We had 42 deaths and 800 people still without shelter in evacuation centres. We have school Children who is currently not attending school. But the fortunate thing that we are very grateful to the international donors and countries like New Zealand, Australia, France and the US and some others who have donated aid, food and funds to help [00:17:00] with the recovery and the response after the second wind in terms of the LGBT movement in Fiji, if you look at uh, you know, Jack talked about some of the progress that we had in Fiji in terms of LGBT protection in Fiji's constitution. In 1997 Fiji became the second country in the world, second to South Africa to have explicitly sexual sexual orientation in its constitution. In 2012, we had a review of Fiji's constitution and part of the Fiji LGBT Coalition made submission [00:17:30] in terms of the extension of sexual orientation under the Bill of Rights to include gender identity and sexual gender expression. So currently we have the 2013 Constitution which is in effect, which has that extension, and I think it's also important when you talk about progress to look at the limitations of what the Constitution has in terms of this constitutional protection on LGBT rights. One of the things that's uh, that's limited under the Bill of Rights [00:18:00] in terms of LGBT and S social protection is first of all, we are not allowed to get married. Second, you cannot inherit third you cannot adopt. Recently, in late 2015, the prime minister of Fiji gave a very disturbing statement to the media calling for all LGBT people in Fiji if they want to get married, to go to catch the boat and [00:18:30] fuck off to Iceland. It was very disturbing because one of the things that we also released as Trans activist was the possibility of a backlash that the statement can have on the LGBT community, particularly for transgender women who are visible in our community. So we made a press release. We sent out a statement and unfortunately we had some assurance from the Fiji Police Commissioner Bri Year One in naval [00:19:00] in terms of making sure that if we feel unsafe in Fiji, we can always access the police force for protection. The other thing that I wanted to talk about is one of the things that's a priority issue for the Pacific islands is climate change. We are part of the Pacific climate change and gender and sustainable development processes. We were We've been very active in the leading up to 21 urgent action up to parents in terms of making sure [00:19:30] that we know we we don't want a 2. 2 °C. As far as we cannot survive with two °C, we are calling for 1. 5 degree C. And we wanted to also make sure that women and LGBT people are part of the planning of adaptation and all of that. OK, I just, um ok, [00:20:00] too low. Too low, Too low. Um, my name is Ken. I just want [00:20:30] to thank you all, uh, for accepting us into your hearts. I want to acknowledge, especially the, um our brothers, uh, you know, the indigenous people of New Zealand, uh, for welcoming us and especially yesterday with Elizabeth. Uh, we are all part of the Great ocean, and we all are brothers and sisters in the scattered. [00:21:00] I would like to also acknowledge the, uh, the organising committee, uh, and and your team for an excellent work. Done. Uh, we're so proud of you. Uh, for completing this task in such a short time, it's just absolutely amazing. And for accepting us from the Pacific as part of your scholarship scheme, you have really looked after us, and we thank you from the bottom of our hearts. Thank you also to world for funding. [00:21:30] And there's great purpose in in looking after the more undeveloped areas of the, uh the region and especially people who cannot afford the resources or the finances to get here. OK, just after that formality. There's just a few issues I'd like to, uh, address, and I'd like to thank for last night the interfaith service that we were all at and we had a little presentation from the Pacific. It brings to mind that, uh, religion, [00:22:00] our belief system, our spirituality is a very important part of our our society. And unfortunately, it's also, uh, the cause of a lot of harm that has come into being. But I like to say as as, uh, LGBT people, especially in Pacific, it's a very strong part of our lives, and what we need to do is build bridges. We need [00:22:30] to dialogue with them, and there needs to be a lot of healing that goes on. I am a, uh, training at the moment to be a theological student. I'm also, um, part of the global Interfaith Network, uh, for LGBT. And it's an incredible work, but we're fighting for safe spaces for people of faith to worship in their own way, regardless of their religion, their nomination. Whether you're a Buddhist, Buddhist, Muslim, um, [00:23:00] no faith. The whole idea is that we can do that. And there's a beauty of We had one thing in common that we are LGBTI and it's so beautiful to be in the same room with. All these people are so diverse. And that's what we hear today. We're so diverse, but we can have that commonality. And, um, this has been previous pre conferences for the gin. So and, um, I'd like to say that should be a a part [00:23:30] of the agenda for the next meeting. That we include our Christianity, spirituality in our agenda to ensure that this is addressed and how best we can approach, Um, uh, the religious leaders, the traditional leaders of our society. And it was a good example last night when you saw the deputy Mayor of, uh, Wellington, the various, uh, clergy from around Wellington. And it was good that we also had representation from this [00:24:00] conference there. So, I, I do believe that we need to do things mainstream. We can't be separated from society, and we must must be seen to to be part of the greater society. So that's one issue. Uh, second issue is xenophobia is very rife in our own community. I think it's that we should take note that I haven't felt anything like that here except on grinder. And, I don't know, a little note to my friend there. [00:24:30] Uh, take note, Jack, that, uh uh, yeah, we can post human rights messages on grinder, but we can sure also do xenophobia on grinder. So it's important that we, you know, we we get over the whole idea. Oh, it's one minute. OK, so that's the second issue. But my third issue and my last issue is about I am so touched to see all the young people here. But I also am very, very moved to see all the old people. And, you know, really, when you [00:25:00] come to our age, you've got to you know, you put us up to pasture. We've got a lot to to still contribute to mentor. Um, and also the fact that is what's gonna happen when we're we're old and grey. Who's gonna look after us? Uh, we were fortunate in our culture that we have our young people to look after us, Hopefully. And so there should be sort of, um, the address in in in our society [00:25:30] such as New Zealand and Australia that we do care for our old LGBTI people. Really? There should be rest homes for our our our aged people. I actually work on the Gold Coast and aged care institutions for the LGBT. They are the ones that slip through the cracks that need to be addressed. So I've finished there. Thank you. Yeah, I know we're running out of time, but I'll get the I'll give [00:26:00] the rest of the time for, um this kid, um, just reminding you that I have a session at one o'clock. Um and and we have another session. Pacific sessions, um, after this, so you can hear more about us and even out the rest of our lives, too. All right. Thank you. I'll try and keep it very brief. Uh, So, um, you must be listening to our issues and feeling sorry for us [00:26:30] and already thinking, How can we help the Pacific? You have many entry points in which New Zealand and Australia can help. So I would like to share that with you, one of which is the Pacific Island Forum, which is based in Fiji. Uh, the forum is made up of all the prime ministers from the Pacific region, including Australia and New Zealand. So you can assist us by lobbying through your own leaders who can then bring up these issues at the forum. [00:27:00] And this is one of the things that we wanted to raise, uh, yesterday with the parliamentarians that were here and also human rights, but unfortunately, we were not able to get a slot. But we rely on you to, um, store this message. And whenever you have the chance to speak to your parliamentarians, um, you can share it with them and one of which is in the Pacific. We have a lot of, um, foreign ministers meeting for economics, uh, for the ministry of, uh, minister [00:27:30] of Development for education. But there is no on human rights. And I know that, uh, and another person had submitted a proposal for setting up a mechanism in which the foreign countries can monitor the human rights situation in each country, and this, unfortunately, was declined. And we would like to encourage our you, our friends and our bro, uh, [00:28:00] brothers and sisters from New Zealand and Australia to always consult us also, because this can also facilitate the process of getting approval from from our leaders when you have the Pacific people, um, providing inputs and demanding, uh, for such, uh, sensitive for for such things that are are usually regarded as, uh, issues in the Pacific and also in terms of, um, the Constitution in [00:28:30] Fiji. As you can see in the handout that I gave out, there are not. There's still a lot of countries that decriminalise same sex, and there is no country that approves of marriage equality. And in Fiji also, we have our rights protected under the Bill of Rights in the Constitution. There's lack of filtering of this supreme law into the subsidiary, uh, legislations, and we would like to we [00:29:00] we would we can learn a lot from the New Zealand, uh, experience and also from the Australian experience. And, uh, if you can share with us the pathway it took to reach that stage, we would also like to know about that. And also, what are some of the implications, Um, that, uh, the supreme law the Constitution can have on subsidiary legislation? We would also like to hear about that because, like, had mentioned, [00:29:30] uh, yesterday we have our rights protected in the Constitution. But then you have the court of law not allowing someone who has fully transitioned to change, uh, his or her sex on her passport. And also, she had mentioned about the prime minister of Fiji saying discriminatory remarks. And this is totally against the Constitution that he put in place. So this is one of the the struggles we go through, uh, the services also, [00:30:00] um, there's not many services that, uh, uh that, uh, tend to the needs of the LGBT Q i community. So that's why not many of our community members access services and also in terms of movement building in the Pacific. Unfortunately, we are unable to, um, access a lot of funds because in most of the countries, particularly in Fiji. We are unable we [00:30:30] cannot register as a charitable trust because we were told that our objectives didn't meet the charitable trust objectives. So this also limits our our work in the region. And you can learn more about this in the next session. And with that, not our ladies and gentlemen and other genders would like to end with a song to thank you all. [00:31:00] He loves I Oh, yeah. Great. [00:31:30] Oh, as [00:32:00] what is that? Thank you very much.

IRN: 1052
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hohou_te_rongo_kahukura_outing_violence_proud_2016.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004428
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089722
TITLE: Hohou Te Rongo Kahukura - Outing Violence - Proud 2016
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VOICES: Sandra Dickson
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Ahi Wi-Hongi; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asian; Auckland; Box Oceania; Christchurch; Duncan Matthews; Dunedin; Elizabeth Kerekere; Evolve Wellington Youth Service; Fetu-ole-moana Teuila Tamapeau; Gisborne; Grindr; Hohou Te Rongo Kahukura - Outing Violence; Kassie Hartendorp; Love Life Fono; Ministry of Social Development; Moeawa Tamanui-Fransen; Māori; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; Nelson; OUTLine NZ; Outerspaces (Wellington); Pakeha; Palmerston North; Pasifika; Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD); Proud 2016 (Wellington); Rachel Fabish; Rainbow Youth; Rape Crisis; Salient (magazine); Sam Orchard; Sandra Dickson; Sandz Peipi Te Pou; Shakti New Zealand; Siaosi Mulipola; Tabby Besley; Tamara Anderson; Te Kaha o te Rangatahi Trust (Auckland); Te Ohaaki A Hine National Network Ending Sexual Violence Together; Trevor Easton; Tīwhanawhana; University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine; Village Collective (Auckland); Wellington; Whangarei; Women's Refuge; abuse; agender; alcohol; anger; behaviour; binding; biphobia; body image; clothing; controlling behaviour; counselling; deadname; disability; discrimination; domestic violence; drug rape; drugs; education; family violence; feminism; friends; gay; gaynz. com; gender diverse; gender identity; hate sexual violence; homophobia; hookups; hui; hypervigilance; identity; impairment; intersex; intimate partner violence; isolation; language; lesbian; loyalty; marriage; media; partner violence; peace; pets; police; power; predator; pronouns; queer; racism; rainbow; rainbow age; rainbow relationships; rape; resource; role model; safe house; same-sex partner violence; self harm; sex; sexual abuse; sexual violence; sexuality; shame; social media; social networking; sport; support; survey; tangata whenua; threats; trans; transgender; transphobia; transphobic violence; violence; violence prevention; website; youth
DATE: 11 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine, Mein Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the workshop: Hohou Te Rongo Kahukura - Outing Violence.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So you know my name? I'm Sandra Dixon, and I'm going to talk today about outing violence, which is a, um we're not even a year old. So, um, we're gonna be talking about what we've done and why we did it. Um, but I kind of I guess I want to, um, be really clear that we're at the beginning of a journey around this, as far as I'm concerned. Anyway, um, and that this is just the start and that that there's a lot to do, I think, um so to give you a little bit of an idea about why I [00:00:30] think I can talk about this. Um, I've been working in family and sexual violence for more than two decades. Um, and I identify strongly as a feminist and working in those areas. I completely understand why they're so focused on men's violence against women. And I have always felt like there was a gap around our communities and what I knew had happened in our communities. And what I know happens in our communities. And my own experiences is like you and Marie. My first relationship with [00:01:00] a woman was, um, abusive, and I had no language for that for for probably 10 years after I'd been working on the refuge movement. Um, so in in those two odd decades in, um, in those areas, I have been able to do some stuff around violence in our communities. Um, I managed a safe house in London for a couple of years, which was for women escaping violence in same sex relationships. Um, I've done a bit of stuff in Wellington with young people identifying [00:01:30] under the rainbow, um, and how we build healthy relationships. But at the beginning of last year, I found myself having left a job not being sure what I wanted to do next. And I was like, Do you know what? This is actually what I want to do next. So let's try and make it happen. Um, which is kind of exciting, really. So I kind of want to share with you who's been part of the conversation. Um, when I started wandering around the country and talking to people about whether or not this was a good idea, I went to a whole bunch of people [00:02:00] that were already doing violence prevention type stuff, or I'd already had some kind of relationship with and asked them if they'd be interested in being part of it. And and nearly everyone, if not everyone said yes to that. So we've got an advisory group of people that are really connected in, um a bunch of different ways in our communities that are part of what we're doing. Um, and I'm just gonna share their beautiful faces with you. So this is a from the New Zealand prostitutes' collective. This is Elizabeth from Trust. [00:02:30] This is from box events, Oceania. This is Cassie from Evolve Box Event So and outer spaces. This is from which is a youth based organisation in Auckland. This is Rachel from National network, ending sexual violence together from the caucus of that organisation. That's a bad photo of me. This is San Pipe from [00:03:00] the Maori caucus of te national network, ending sexual violence together. This is the gorgeous tabby before us. This is Trevor, who works at outline in, um in Auckland. Outline NZ Duncan Matthews from Rainbow Youth Sam Orchard, whose gorgeous work is all over our website. And you can see some of the fact sheets from our website over there. Um, comic genius basically [00:03:30] COC from Village Collective in Auckland and Tamara Anderson from originally the project and then later Pacific futures in Auckland. So we had a whole bunch of really, um, people that were really well connected into our communities in a whole bunch of different ways, saying, Yeah, we want to be part of this project and we want to work on it together, which, um, for me was tremendously exciting. And also, I think, um, I just want to give a shout out to our young people because, boy, were they ready to have this conversation, every single youth [00:04:00] organisation I spoke to were like, Yeah, we'll be on board with this. Um, I think that tells us something, Really? It's good. It's a good thing. Yeah, So I want to share some of the language I'm gonna be using today. We use Rainbow, and I know it's a contested term, and I know not everyone likes it, and we use it because some of the feedback from our Pacifica members was that they wanted a word that was not going to, um, be reducible down to lesbian gay transgender. You know, our English words. They wanted to be able to see their [00:04:30] identities under our under our rainbow. Um, and we wanted we wanted a collective term, though that wasn't going to be listing all our identities because these are all our identities here in New Zealand. Now that I'm aware of, there's probably more. So I'm gonna be using Rainbow today, um, to talk about everyone who identifies under the sex, sexuality and gender diverse umbrellas. OK, and I kind of want to just talk about our name a little bit. So was gifted to us from [00:05:00] Elizabeth in conversation she held with in Gisborne. Um, it's a traditional Maori phrase. Has anyone heard it? One knows what it means. And I'm looking at you. No, OK, it's a, um What it means is to cultivate peace. So is the, um, the god of cultivation. And also the God of peace is about cultivating peace inside our rainbow communities. And a few [00:05:30] reasons why we decided that was the name we wanted to use. Um, the first is that we wanted to be, you know, very clearly stating that we were an organisation or a group of people that was valuing here in New Zealand. We wanted to be making it very clear that, um that we weren't just talking about that horrible stuff. We also wanted to talk about what it looked like when we got it right. Um and the third reason was that we believe [00:06:00] that cultivating peace inside the Rainbow community isn't just about the relationship I have with you. It's the relationship all of the different groups in our communities have with each other, too. So if we're going to have peaceful rainbow communities, we need to have communities that address racism as well as communities that address interpersonal violence. So it's quite an ambitious name, Really. Let's be honest. Um, the second part of our name, the English part of our name outing violence. That's really about the idea that if we want to be in communities without violence, we need to know [00:06:30] what it is. We need to be able to talk about it. We need to be able to, um, say what isn't OK, and and I guess I want to, um, share really that I think for me that that part of our name is about standing with survivors and making sure there's a language for survivors to talk about what's happened to them. But it's also spectacularly challenging inside a rainbow, our rainbow community, because we actually, when we're talking about adding violence for partner and sexual violence, we're mostly talking about people that are causing it being [00:07:00] inside our community, too. Yeah, and it's hard because it means we're talking about our friends. It means we're talking about people that are esteemed, Um, and part of outing violence is finding ways to manage those things and hold people accountable. But it's not a it's not a simple thing. I want to acknowledge that, I guess. OK, Third term terminology thing. Historically, this kind of violence partner violence has been called lesbian and gay. [00:07:30] Yeah, um, bit of a problem for people in our communities who don't identify as Les being and gay around about the early two thousands, it started being called same sex partner violence is that I'm curious about what terms are being used in Canada in intimate partner violence. OK, so same sex early two thousands to indicate that it was, um, that some of the people in those relationships might not identify as Les being or gay. I took this clip from the women's refuge website just a few days ago. So you can see there. [00:08:00] They've made the shift to calling it women in same sex relationships. Um, still under a lesbian banner. We're not using same sex partner violence, and we're not using lesbian and gay either. We're talking about rainbow relationships, and we're we're defining that as any relationship in which at least one person identifies as sex, sexuality or gender diverse. The reason for that is that for our trends and bisexual members of our community, we might be [00:08:30] in a relationship with someone who identifies as straight and cys and as abusive. And if we don't include that under our umbrella, we're gonna be missing some of the ways biphobia and Transphobia plays out. And I kind of that felt to me really logical. I have to say, when we came up with it, when we when Elizabeth and I went around the country, that was probably the thing that people talked about us the most thanked us for having an inclusive, um, way of talking about it. That meant they could see what where their relationships fitted. I was kind of interested in that. [00:09:00] OK, so less than a year ago, we decided that the first thing we needed to do before we tried to do anything going out and about and talking to people was actually make sure there was some information for people available publicly. Um, so we put together a website and that quickly turned from being a, um that was supposed to be just a holding thing. Actually, I ended up feeling like we have a responsibility to provide a little bit more around this. [00:09:30] Um, because there's nothing there at the moment. Absolutely nothing. So I'm gonna show you some of the These are some of the facts. I'll show you some more of the slides from the website in a moment, but it ended up being quite an enormous piece of work. And I'm very proud, actually, of what it looks like now. And there's a whole bunch more to do that we want to do, like a whole bunch more to do. Um, second thing was a survey, which I know, Um, a couple of people said they filled out, um, asking people's experiences of being in relationships and have unwanted sexual experiences. [00:10:00] And I'm going to talk a lot about that today. In a minute, third thing was a national tour that Elizabeth and I embarked on around the country. Um, we went to we held 19 in 20 days, and then we held one a wee bit later. So it was It was, um, fun for action, action oriented, um, talking to people around the country about their experience of the the stuff and basically trying to make sure that we had shared understandings of what partner [00:10:30] violence and sexual violence were. They were amazing. They are amazing conversations, and I'll talk a bit more about that later, too. So in terms of our website, um, I felt like when we started doing this work, it would be absolutely irresponsible not to have some rainbow specific content that would help people have some ideas about what to do in different situations where violence existed. Um, it's not absolutely perfect, but it's got some downloadable, [00:11:00] simple information about what to do in various situations. If you've got a friend who's using violence or experiencing violence, there's also some fact sheets about different kinds of people's experiences in the rainbow community of what being a survivor might include. So it talks about some of the specific ways that homophobia and biphobia and transphobia get leveraged for different kinds of people in our community. One of the things I really want to do there is create a whole bunch more resources [00:11:30] that are more culturally specific for different people's experiences. But we've got some basic stuff up there. Um, and I really encourage people to check out if they haven't already. It's WWW dot dot co dot NZ. OK, so we're gonna talk about the survey now I want to say before I get going into the the kind of data that, um, I know this can be really tricky stuff to talk about, and I know it can remind us of things that have happened to us [00:12:00] or our friends. I will be perfectly OK if anyone needs to step out for a little while and go and get a drink of water or whatever. Um, I'm also perfectly OK if people want to check in with me afterwards and ask me any questions. What I'd kind of like to do as we go through the information is encourage you to ask me questions. If it's a point of fact about the slide, that doesn't make sense. But if it's something you want to share, that's personal. I'd ask that you come and do that with me later. Is that OK? Yeah. OK, cool. So [00:12:30] survey snowball technique, which basically means we had no way of getting this out to people except using the networks that we already had. So we went out through Rainbow Media. We used our advisory group members as champions that went out through social media in a whole bunch of ways. It went out through, um, we got spectacular support from Rainbow Media around the country and, um, have run a couple of articles about it. The first article they wrote, which was basically us launching the website. We shared 60 times within the first three days. So we got a whole bunch of really fabulous, [00:13:00] um, community buy in, which was wonderful. We kept the open for four months. It was big. It was a big, um you know, we told people it was going to take them around about 20 minutes to answer. That was probably true. Unless people had had lots of experiences of violence, in which case it might have taken longer. Um, but it was still, you know, quite a significant commitment. I think to, um, answer it and share your experiences. We started out by asking a whole bunch of questions about demographics. [00:13:30] Um, and I'm gonna talk you through some of the data we've got from that in a minute. And then we asked people detailed experiences about their intimate relationships and about sexual experiences, about the effects of that abuse and about any help seeking experiences that they tried. Um, over that four months, we have 407 people responding around the country, which I was really pleased about. To be honest, um, similar survey in Australia Got less. I'm not competitive. [00:14:00] OK, so first question, what is your age? You can see here that our youth are rocking up. Hey, um, really pleased to see a range. Really pleased to see 40 to 49 representing. Um, no, that's a joke. Seriously pleased to see that we weren't only, you know, smatter over a couple of age groups. So, um, and I think the the higher numbers of young people reflects who our champions were, um and also possibly [00:14:30] the When you share on social media. Who's watching? Maybe. Yeah, but a good range of ages. Um, gender. We asked people to tell us in their own words, how they identify their gender. So you can see here. It looks like we got more female respondents, and I think that's true. But we also let people tick as many boxes here as they wanted to. So, um, what it means is that it's really complicated data to try and explain to anyone. But it's truthful about how we identify which I think is important. [00:15:00] Um, we were really pleased to see the numbers of trends and and gender fluid and non-binary people answering. It's quite a lot higher than similar surveys overseas. Um, yeah, we let people, um, tell us in their own words as well if they wanted to. And you can see here that some of those identifies people people wanted to restate in the text. Um, and some of them were things that we hadn't considered. But you can see I think tick boxes don't cut it really for us anymore, eh? [00:15:30] We've got lots of ways we want to describe ourselves, which is just gorgeous. OK, we also asked a question about whether or not people knew that they were intersex. Um, only eight people who answer the survey said they did, which means that we we're not really going to have anything useful to say about under six people's experiences. Um, and we knew that would be a problem, because when I tried to find a way of making this available to under six, people told me there was no way of doing that. We don't actually have any intersex networks in New Zealand [00:16:00] at the moment. That can do that right now. Um, you can see there's a big smattering of people who didn't know, and most people were pretty pretty sure that they weren't into sex, which is interesting. I was quite interested in that because I don't know if I'm into sex or not. I haven't had everything checked out. Yeah, OK, sexuality, um, same thing here. We invited people to check more than one box if they wanted to. Um, the straight heterosexual grouping here will be trans people. Um, and you can see the other. [00:16:30] There's a smattering of other identities there. Um, gay and lesbian. Perhaps our traditional sexuality identity is not necessarily as high as as the other groups, which is interesting. We let people do the same thing with sexuality that we did with gender and asked them what they call themselves. And we're queer. Hey, we're really, really queer. And that possibly reflects the younger demographic that we had. Um, I was really curious that even though we had offered [00:17:00] some of these identi identities, people still wanted to write them in the box. So they obviously these are things people care about. Hey, how we What we the words we used to call ourselves, um, and gorgeous again to see such a range OK, ethnicity. This is really interesting in terms of, um, our non-white ethnicities. So Maori national census data tells us we got 15% Maori. We got a 17% response rate. So pretty happy with that, [00:17:30] um, national census data for Asian populations in New Zealand 12%. So we're under that. We only got 8% responding. Um, national data for Pacifica Peoples in New Zealand, 8%. We got 7% responded. Um, you can see that is pretty high there. And that's because again, we let people tick more than one box. And so people were taking. And some And Chinese, um, we've got a pretty representative group in, though in terms of ethnicity, which is pretty fabulous, I think. [00:18:00] 407. Yeah, um, the the words that are in brackets there are the words that I've grouped in the different areas. And the reason some of them were, um some people had put kiwi. I've made an assumption that they meant they were They might not be right. Some people had said they were New Zealand European and not I've jumped them into. And New Zealand European, I'm afraid, Um, and we've got some other identities up there as well. I didn't know where we belonged. So the [00:18:30] one person who's identified as is up there, OK, and the last demographic question was around health and disability and pretty interesting. We've got 40% of our people answering the survey, identifying as having some kind of impairment. Hm. Yeah, and you can see they are heavily concentrated and the impairments to do with, um, learning and concentrating and how we are socially in the world, which I think, you know, in terms of the, [00:19:00] um in terms of minority stress and what it's like to live in our identities in the world and in terms of experiences of partner and sexual violence and the impact they have on us. Interesting, really interesting. A smattering of the, um, sensory impairments as well. Any questions on any of the demographic stuff? OK, just something I want to clarify. When people asked to complete the survey if they had had experience [00:19:30] anyway. Sorry. Thank you. That's a really important clarification. The survey was open to anyone over the age of 16 who identified under the Rainbow umbrella. Yeah, and we have one of the one of the kind of caveats that this research is going to have is that we have no idea if people were more drawn to fill in the survey because they had experiences of violence and wanted somewhere to share those. Or if everyone and I know this is true. Everyone in one youth group filled it in together. So we we don't know. We just don't know. We don't know if these are pre they're [00:20:00] not prevalence rates. They're an indication. Yeah, thank you, though. That's a really good question. I should have said that at the start. OK, I'm gonna talk about partner violence now, um, to explore partner violence in the survey, we didn't ask people. Have you experienced partner violence? We asked people about specific kinds of behaviour that, um either indicate imbalances of power in a relationship or [00:20:30] are associated with other kinds of behaviour and therefore might be problematic. Um, And to create these questions, we looked at international surveys that asked questions about partner violence. And then we thought about the experiences that we know are part of our communities. And we added some questions that haven't been in surveys anywhere else before, Which is kind of exciting, I think, Um, and we asked people how many partners have? Yeah, [00:21:00] And so when we look at the data, that percentage figure at the top on all the graphs you're gonna see is the percentage of people that had at least one partner do whatever the thing is and the colours yellow. One person, one partner had done it. Maroon two partners had done it. Purple, purple, three or more people had done it. OK, so let's start [00:21:30] talking about the data you can see here on this, um, first sheet of questions. We've got around about 60% of our people reporting that at least one partner had acted so angry towards them that they were frightened that at least one partner had called them names and that at least one partner had insulted, humiliated them or made fun of them in front of other people. Slightly over half, he had at least one partner tell them they were a loser [00:22:00] or a failure or other abusive and threatening names. Um, just Under had been just under half had been ridiculed by at least one partner about how their body looked. One in three had been told that no one else would want them, and one in five. And I really want to shout out to CO here, that question at the end. I'm not aware of that question being used in any other partner violence survey anywhere in the world. We wanted to find out whether or not racism was part of our partner. Violence was playing out in New [00:22:30] Zealand and one in five people said, Yeah, I've heard someone use racist language towards me in a relationship, so it looks like it is which, if we think about power Isn't that surprising? Probably a OK. Any questions about any of the information on that page here? We've got information about, um, different kinds of controlling behaviour, Really? So you can see at the end there we've got nearly 60% of our peeps telling us that they had a partner who told them everything was their [00:23:00] fault. Just under half. It had partners who'd used alcohol or drugs as an excuse for hurting them or who'd been criticised or questioned or shamed about their sexuality as part of behaviour in a relationship. We've got one in four people and I really want to shout out to this particular thing because it isn't something that's been explored anywhere I've seen yet. We've got 14 people [00:23:30] being told or being stopped from being out, being disconnected from the rainbow community around them as part of abusive behaviour in a relationship. What's interesting about that is that this is the one that is talked about a lot for rainbow partner violence, that people will be threatened to be outed, and what we're seeing here is the exact opposite people being stopped from being out. People being stopped from being connected to other rainbow people. Um, we've also got [00:24:00] one in four having pronouns used that aren't people's preference or people being dead named, basically people's gender identity not being not being respected. Um, we've got one in four being told that no one's going to believe you about the abuse that I'm using. And we've got one in six being threatened to be outed and one in 10 being told that women don't abuse women or men don't abuse men. So what's happening here is an abuse. So it's actually been explicitly said [00:24:30] in a relationship. It's not even the stuff around us. It's been explicitly said, Next set of information, these rates on the slide these are extraordinarily high, and I want to put out there that I feel like what I'm seeing here is the glue of how abusive relationships in the Ramo community happen in New Zealand because we've got more than half of our people telling us that their that their partner, [00:25:00] at least one of their partners, had has tried to keep them from talking to people. Other people has made decisions for them, has kept track of where they were going, has texted or called them all the time to try and stop them. Doing stuff has been has, um, threatened to hurt themselves or kill themselves if they don't do what you want. All of the stuff is the kind of isolation controlling stuff that I think holds. It is the glue of abusive relationships, [00:25:30] and our rates are so high. These are so, so high. I. I kind of find it fascinating. Survey also cover how many ex partners exhibit any of any partners? Yeah, It wasn't about current partners. It was about any partners. And I can't remember doing that. That thing of so many ex partners. Totally. Totally. Yeah. You're absolutely right. Yeah. Hence the possibility of having three or more. [00:26:00] Especially within a community where such close knit relationships where people are expected to be on good terms with your ex partners. Yeah. Yes. So that makes the difference. I'm not sure whether we're just talking past each other then. So you're saying it's not about the partner, but a partner who used to be your partner who is now being like and then get a phone call or I'm gonna hurt myself. I mean, you know, if you don't. [00:26:30] It could be either of those things. Yeah, Yeah. We haven't made a distinction between those things we said. We've asked about behaviours from a partner because at the moment they've become an ex partner. I sort of you know, they're not my partner anymore. They're my next that is. Actually, once the breakup has happened that that a whole range of them it happened, did you further break down the identities of the partner department? We're gonna look at gender identity of partners at the moment. Yeah, [00:27:00] OK, um and we've also got one in three who've had one of their partners make threats to physically harm them. One in three. It's pretty high and one in 10. And this is interesting because this is lower than, um, women who are experiencing violence men report have had a pet that's been threatened to be hurt by the by their partner. OK, moving [00:27:30] on now to, um, starting to move towards more explicitly physical violence. So we've got one in three people experiencing someone stopping them, going out without them. One in three people experiencing destruction of property, um, one in four people experiencing being having their money control. Um, one in five people having someone say things to them. Like, if I can't hear you, then no one can so really quite explicitly threatening stuff. [00:28:00] One in six people experiencing threats to hurt someone that they love or someone they love actually being hurt by their partner. And one in 10 having threats around Children being, um, being taken away from you by a partner. OK, last side around this. This is where we get into the actual physical violence stuff. You can see that half [00:28:30] of the people that answered the survey had had a partner who had pushed or shoved them in the past one and three. It had someone who'd slammed them against someone or something or had slapped them or had hit you with a fist. We've got one in five people around about one in five people experiencing someone pulling their hair, kicking them, biting them or choke or trying to choke them. [00:29:00] These are all really high levels of quite serious physical violence. One in six people has been beaten and the ones at the top lower numbers. Only 6% for both of those But people who've had a knife or gun used on them, or people who've been burned on purpose by a partner. The two at the bottom are two that are quite specific to trans and gender diverse experience. The 4% refers to people that have, [00:29:30] um, had the experience of their partner stop them using things that were gender affirming. So things like binders or particular dress out clothing styles and things like that. The bottom one is hidden or thrown away hormones that are important to my gender. So lower numbers of people. But only question only things that are actually really relevant to trends or GES and obvious people. So not surprising. The figures are lower. The good news is we're gonna stop looking at partner violence now because that's really fucking horrible stuff. Hey, let's be honest. [00:30:00] This is the gender of the partner using violence. So we asked people to, um, we asked people to write that down for us, and we gave them the words that we wanted them to use. So you can see here. We've got um, yeah, we've got pretty high levels of both male and female. We've only got a smattering of trends and gender diverse um, perpetrators here, But we've got much higher levels of female perpetrators than we would usually see [00:30:30] in studies. And that's probably reflecting in the fact that we've got more women answering the survey, I think. But it kind of, um makes a mockery of the idea that violence doesn't happen in relationships between women. Yeah, OK, we asked a question about Ampex because we wanted to get to whether or not the things that were happening here were, um, were relatively harmless, so actually quite serious. Um, you can see that more [00:31:00] than two thirds of people said that they felt numb and detached from their life because of what had happened in the most recent abusive relationship they've been in. And by this point, we called it abusive. An abusive relationship. Um, nearly two thirds had said that they tried really hard not to think about it, tried to put it away. More than half said that they felt afraid of the other person, that they had nightmares about what had happened or that they felt constantly on guard. Hypervigilant around about half said that [00:31:30] they used alcohol or drugs more often than usual to cope with what had happened in the relationship, Um, or they felt concerned for their safety. And one in five had physical injuries from what was happening in their relationship. So quite serious impacts. I want people to hold on to that because later on we're going to talk about why people, the answers people gave to why they hadn't sought help. And it's important we remember what people said. The impacts were OK. How are people doing heavy stuff? [00:32:00] It's It is startling. Yeah, I agree. Does anyone have anything they want to do to get rid of that before we move on to talking about sexual violence? Stand up, shake around anything like that? We're all good, OK? Not as good as we can be, OK? Sexual violence. So same thing with sexual violence. We didn't say. Have you experienced sexual violence? We asked about specific kinds of behaviours that people might have experienced, [00:32:30] and we asked them how many people and with this we were really clear. We weren't just talking about partners. We were talking about anyone. Um and we we've got some information about who perpetrators were at the end of this. So the first set of questions we asked people how many how many people had expose these sexual body parts to flesh you masturbated in front of you? Half of our people answering the survey said, Yeah, that had happened to me. Just under half have been made to touch someone else's sexual body parts. [00:33:00] And I think one of the things that interests me about this kind of this data is you look at how many people have had three or more people do that for those first two, like we've gone from having a predominantly, maybe one partner who's done this to us to. Actually, quite a lot of people are doing this stuff to us, which is really, really scary. I think we've got just under 40% have been made to show sexual body parts to someone when they didn't want to, and we've got one in three experiencing [00:33:30] a threat to sexually assault them. One in three experiencing a threat to sexually assault them, one in five being made to look at or participate in sexual photos or videos. So quite sobering stuff. Yes, this is all against their will, and we thank you. It's a really good question because for each of the questions for sexual the sexual violence area. And we didn't call it the Sexual [00:34:00] Violence Area. We reiterated that again at the top to make sure that people were clear that no, no time frame, but that it was things that you didn't want to happen. Yeah, so And that was the phrase we used. I'm also reflecting on. As you said, the number of multiple when you think about how old many of the respondents totally. Yeah, it certainly is. And I guess what it suggests [00:34:30] for me and you can see again here I look at how many people have had three or more people touch their sexual body parts when they don't want that to happen. One in three people who had three or more people do that to them, that's extraordinary. And who said that story? Who said the analogy of a frog in boiling water? People heard them. Yeah, Anyone hasn't heard it. No. Everyone knows it. OK, cool for me. This is the This is the water that our rainbow communities are boiling in a. This [00:35:00] is the stuff that is teaching us that our bodies aren't our own to decide who gets to touch and how they get to touch them. These figures are extraordinary. Frankly, So we've got more than I can touch your sexual body parts without you wanting to that. Yeah, I guess all of the questions had that writer written at the top. So it was. I hope it was clear people answering the questions. [00:35:30] Yeah, I have, um, taken some liberties with the answers for the presentation. Um, OK, so for this side, we've got more than two thirds of people who have had at least one person touch their sexual body parts when they haven't wanted that to happen. We've got just under two thirds of people being kissed in a sexual way when they haven't wanted that to happen. We've got more than half of our people telling us that they had had sexual parts of their body touch that didn't want touch during sexual activity or they've been pressured to do sexual [00:36:00] stuff they haven't wanted to do in an otherwise consenting sexual situation. So yeah, this this, for me is we can see is starting to get really, really murky, I think for our rainbow communities. And that's scary when these things happen like multiple things happen as part of one incident. It's really I don't know how people have answered that. I suspect that. Well, I hope they've ticked all of this, but I don't know. And that is one of the, um, one of the great unknowns about [00:36:30] how we did this. It was online. Yeah, we have. We have lots and lots and lots of murky areas. Mm. OK. We asked a set of questions around whether or not people have been made to perform or receive oral, vaginal anal sex in particular situations. Um, we've got half of our respondents saying that they've been forced to perform or receive those kinds of sex because of pressure being repeatedly [00:37:00] asked to do something. We've got half of people having that happen to them when they were drunk, asleep, drugged or passed out by at least one person. We've got one in three experiencing those things by someone who's pressuring them by telling them they're going to do awful things to them. Unless unless this happens, we've got one in four having physical threats being used in order to have the person causing harm [00:37:30] be allowed to perform or receive oral vaginal anal sex. We've got one in five having someone using their authority as either a boss or a teacher or a counsellor. Um, a position of authority, basically. And we've got one in 10 being told that if they didn't do that that they weren't really a lesbian, a gay man, a bisexual person, a trans person. Did you get any information about [00:38:00] what sort of age people were asked the question because no, we did ask about the gender of perpetrators of sexual violence, and you can see here we've got a heavy predominance of male perpetrators, tiny smattering of trans and gender queer people and some women perpetrating sexual violence as well. [00:38:30] We did ask as well about the relationship when the sexual violence happened. You can see down the bottom. As with, um, is with other kinds of sexual violence. It's often coming from a partner from a boyfriend or a girlfriend. So two thirds of our people said at least one of the people that did this stuff to them had been a partner. One in three said it had been a friend. Just under one in 10 said it had been a work colleague. One [00:39:00] in five said it had been a family member. So there we're talking about child sexual abuse. The numbers for someone I just met and for strangers are much higher than we usually see in sexual violence. Data that's looking at straight as people's experiences. Um, one in three for strangers had had had one of these experiences from a stranger. And here I think we're talking about hate sexual violence. Really, we're talking about sexual violence. It's targeting us because of our sexuality or gender identity or the perception [00:39:30] of our sexuality or gender identity. Um, can I Can you unpack that a little bit In terms of what I think that is? I'm I'm extrapolating. Firstly, let me say that, Um, I'm saying that I think that, um, we know that most sexual violence that has been researched in the straight world doesn't happen from strangers. So it's not someone just walking up and and doing this. We know from some of the things that people have said in the survey that that is happening. [00:40:00] They are getting threats from strangers. They are getting experiences where, um, someone's literally not liking their gender or sexual or sexual presentation and sexual violence is part of policing that, and I'm calling that hate sexual violence. But you don't think it would be, um, because of the predominance of the the I'm. Assuming it's this male, it would be from things like social Media and grinder and some of the I'm sure that will be some of it, too. And I think that someone [00:40:30] I just met stuff the one and three someone I just met. Stuff quite possibly speaks to some of the environments that Rainbow Communities set up around meeting people because the rest of the world isn't safe for us and therefore those, um, Internet situations, sex on site venues, those kinds of things, bars and clubs and the like, which, you know, once something happens, then the word goes out. Watch out there. But I think it's almost need something bad to happen before other people [00:41:00] say, Oh, there's somebody targeting And even what what happened in the community? Who and I will talk about that a little bit more in a moment. But what people talked about there was there been a presumption of consent in lots of contexts in the rainbow community that have been set up for sexual encounters, but a presumption of consent just for being there. So I've gone to a six on site venue. That means everything that happens here. I've already said yes to And people talked about what? That what a problem that was. Yeah. And and the same with Internet hook up situations, [00:41:30] too, that there was a presumption you'd already agreed by clicking. Yeah, I'll go and meet you. Yeah. Can you just tell me what the what? The difference is between a stranger and someone that I just met is a stranger somebody completely unknown to you haven't spoken to or is. Someone just met somebody that you've actually spoken to is that I can't tell you how people will have interpreted the question. That was what we [00:42:00] were trying to capture with the question. It seems to me that that that that's a bit I think, Yeah, I agree with you. There's some ambivalence there. We we absolutely wanted to capture that stuff where you've met someone in a bar that night, and what happens is sexual assault, as opposed to someone targets you in the street and you've got no connection with them at all. Yeah, you had an online conversation with someone for a while. [00:42:30] The same with online conversations you might not have met somebody face to face. You chatted to them online. You have a sense of security. And that was another place that people talk about in the community. I'm not wanting to take up too much time as you're going through this, but there is another possibility with [00:43:00] the stranger bit is when we're younger and there's no stranger bit that when we're not sure of our sexuality or whatever, there are people who pray and you can sniff it. You know, basically. So there are people who will men mainly, who will target young people who put [00:43:30] off the vibes of not being confident about themselves. Yeah, so you will get, um, approached or just grabbed in the street because you look like you. I suggest there's a possibility of that as well. I think you are absolutely correct. And I think that, um, one of the things that the first piece of feedback I got from on the survey from some one [00:44:00] was someone writing and to say to me, You missed out age here in terms of perpetration stuff. What happens for young queer men when we come out is that older queer men target us. And they were right. We didn't ask questions around that. Yeah, it's sort of what? What? They, um what they described it is. And I started using this phrase was that there are vulnerabilities around your rainbow age. So when you're just coming out [00:44:30] and you don't know what the rules are and you don't actually not sure what you're up for yet that people that are predatory can target that, too. Coming out totally, totally. And I remember playing sport with young women who had had their coaches, um, target them for sexual relationships. Yeah, yeah. And and that was also what I'm getting a bit for the strange one. [00:45:00] It's not necessarily in a same sex relationship. Just if you so young women can be targeted by predatory men totally in public situations because they said they had some more, you know, it's like you're different. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. I completely agree with everything you've said. Thank you. A consent in 16. [00:45:30] 16. Any desegregation of data around drug rate? I haven't done any desegregation of data of any so and you can probably see why there's quite a lot of data. But I just I remember 10 years ago, so we were selling protection kits because there was so much for hypno in New Zealand. Well, particularly the, um, crisis. We're feeling a lot of people three days after Saturday night [00:46:00] that haven't been dumped in any way in the world. And when you saw that one in two people, half of our people said that they had. So it's but yeah, I, I know that that for me that experience is 10 years ago, but in terms of the knowledge that there was a lot of it around, I don't know around now. When my first experience, when I came back to New Zealand in 2005 and going to a queer club in Wellington, I was standing at the bar and this gorgeous [00:46:30] young, um, queer man asked me if I'd watch his drink for him. And I said, Sure, and he said, Yeah, a friend of mine was drug raped here last week, and I was like, Whoa, I've been back in the country like probably two weeks. I never heard that in a bar before. Actually Google it. So I wrote an article this week The orientation week. Hold on to your drink like it's your favourite lover. There was there was quite a rash of it in Well, and some of the [00:47:00] young people were sharing Watch out for that particular bartender because it wasn't just the customers. It was the bar staff that were. But I mean, this is just anecdotal, but I don't get the sense that now so, you know, in terms of. But I've also heard anecdotally that people Sorry, I was just gonna say the other one is People say, Oh, why bother buying a drink or having it when you can sort of use tinder grinder or whatever? Let's let's stop, um, having a general chit chat, I'm going to finish with this. We might well [00:47:30] have time for a general chit chat at the end. OK, so the impacts we asked the same question around impacts the one that we'd asked about partner violence. You can see here that more than three quarters of people said that they tried really hard not to think about what had happened to them that two thirds had said that they felt numb and detached from their lives. That significantly more than half had said that they were constantly on guard. Hypervigilant felt afraid of the other person and felt concerned for their safety. [00:48:00] Um, just on half said that they had nightmares about what had happened, Um, or that they used alcohol or drugs more as a result of what had happened. And one in four people had physical injuries as a result of the sexual violence that had happened to them. So again, quite serious impacts again. Please hold that in your head for a slide. I'm gonna show you slightly later on. I guess just why I want to touch on you very quickly is that it takes a little bit of insight to realise that those of behaviour related to that [00:48:30] so many people, it takes such a long time to get to. Actually, that was a significant, I think. Yeah. And Alex, I think that is so true. And I think in the context of, um, lack of consent being actually quite ordinary. And that's what our stats show. That's even more true. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. and multiple people that have done that, too. Yeah, [00:49:00] I completely agree. OK, any more comments on the section one section before we move on to people's experiences of help seeking? No. OK, so we asked people if they thought they needed help for what had happened to them. Um, and about 350 odd people said, Yup. They did think they needed help. Um, we asked them if they asked for it, [00:49:30] and 220 said that they did ask for it. And these are the groups of people that they asked for it. So you can see massively. We've asked our mates for help. Um, not surprising that that figure is pretty consistent across all kinds of experiences of, of violence. We're also going to counsel us, though a whole bunch more than, um, then probably people are. And I suspect that's because the numbers of people that have gone to specialist agencies are miniscule there, [00:50:00] you know, especially domestic violence agencies. Just 19 people have even tried to knock on the door. Um, sexual violence agencies are quite small. It shows us how important it is that councillors are safe People. I think um, got a few people going to family. We don't have very many people trying to go to queer community groups. And what's interesting about that, for me is that every single queer community group around the country that I've talked to this about knows it's happening. So if only 20 people from our survey have gone to them [00:50:30] out of the 220 that needed help. Boy, we were only seeing the tip of the iceberg. Grant, Um, not many people are going to The police either. Were quite surprised by that. Um, yeah, I was, um and I was really surprised at the high levels of counsellors because counselling is not free for most people. So yeah, not surprised about the friend? [00:51:00] That was That was probably what I was expecting, to be honest. Yeah. Um, our advisory group members have been quite upset about the community group. The lowness of that step. Yeah. OK, um we asked people how supportive the people they went to for help with So purple is very supportive. Maroon Quite supportive, yellow, not supportive at all. You can see the police win the prize for the not supportive at all even though hardly anyone's gone to them. Probably not surprising. And you can see their friends [00:51:30] and counsellors are the people that are being experienced as very supportive percentage wise in terms of how many people have gone to them, um, sexual violence agencies, domestic violence agencies. Looks like about half and half are getting a reasonable response, and about half are not. We also asked how helpful they were. It turned out that question was completely useless because, actually, it's almost exactly the same. The only thing that's interesting about that for me is that friends were more supportive than helpful, probably because we want [00:52:00] to help our friends. But we don't necessarily know how. That's actually the only thing that's interesting about that data. The police stop. Yeah, the police, Yeah. Oh, I think the police is about the same. I think the grass is a bit bigger. It's funny because I think it's actually a really significant question. The difference between support and helpful, very, very different words they picked up. I would have taken that [00:52:30] support you, but actually helping you to get to potentially a different. But I help can sometimes be beyond particular of It might be very supportive, but not actually. Yeah. Yeah. Good Lord. Yes. Yeah, I agree. [00:53:00] And then she has an experience. And actually, I've heard lots of people talk about that. And, you know, if you look at our levels, that's going to be quite likely, actually, Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Thank you, Joe. I agree. OK, we asked people. So why didn't you seek help or report what happened to you? Now? I want everyone to cast their minds back to those impacts. OK? Because two thirds of our people said they didn't seek help because they didn't think it was that big a deal. And we've just seen those [00:53:30] impacts. So we've still got this thing we actually do. We have the language to talk about what's happened to us. Do we have the language to say that as you were saying, Alex, these things are actually really related. Maybe not. Probably not. Not surprising, maybe, um, over to this side. We've got a couple of questions around whether or not they hadn't reported or sought help because the person that had caused the harm to them had told them not to and told them if they did something bad would happen. So you've got one in five people reporting that and one in 10 people [00:54:00] saying someone else in their lives told them that bad things would happen, and and that question asked specifically about, um, about whether or not it was related to having to come out as well. And there's some stuff I'm gonna share some quotes with you in a minute around that that are quite significant. I think, um, over the other side here, though, we've basically got the barriers that are a little bit more specific to our experience, right? So we've got one in three people saying they didn't know where to go. We've got one in three people saying they didn't think they'd [00:54:30] be dealt with fairly got one in four people saying that they were worried they'd be more violence or discrimination if they tried to seek them out. And we've got people being worried that the services they went to or the places they went for help would be homophobic biphobic or transphobic. We've got one in 10 being afraid that they'd they'd be out at all, that they'd actually have to come out if they reported what had happened to them. So those barriers, they're our barriers. They're not generic barriers. Really. [00:55:00] Any questions about any of that? The interesting one for me is to be in terms of internalising and internalising and trying to normalise it very significant because because what it says is to me there's a culture that, um that we're not really confident about dealing with issues of violence. And [00:55:30] I think there's a historical, historical reason for that coming from coming essentially from warrior cultures. I'm pretty sure we're a warrior culture and the Maori are war culture, and we've been taught to, um, to really minimise it and internalise a lot of our feelings of what's happened to us. That's my perspective on that. Yeah, interesting. I guess I'd add to that that I think that, um, the language for calling this behaviour [00:56:00] violence in our rainbow communities I don't think really exists. I don't think we even have ways to talk about it. I having lived in quite quite a few different countries, I think that New Zealand New Zealand culture is psychologically very violent. That's my That's my um, maybe it reflects what's happened to me, but I also have a very close friend who for the last 30 years has worked in child abuse. And, um, [00:56:30] and I was one of the first people in New Zealand and united to stand up and ask, where where were the, um where with statistics on New Zealand, sexuality and rates of incest and abuse, and all the rest of it, and paid a very high price for it. But with I think that there's a very a very, very high level, if understated, violence in our culture and I think dealing with this, [00:57:00] I presume you're going, you're going on to looking at some solutions. But I think that it's a discussion that really needs to be had about the level, the unrecognised people of society, the group. Would that also be capturing the the the people who? The reason [00:57:30] that they then they're able to say don't report is the authority thing. You know, your boss, your supervisor. Um um, Counsellor, your coach, You could be capturing any of that. You remind us the number of people who said they didn't seek help, which is this is a Yeah, Well, not necessarily because some of the people that sought help. Might have sought Might might not have sought help every time. [00:58:00] Yeah, um, so 350 people said they definitely need a specialist help. And 220 people made at least one attempt to seek help for at least one thing. Do you think that, um I think it comes at we We offered free text around barriers, and I'm going to share [00:58:30] some quotes from that later. Um, yeah. So I hope we covered it. And we certainly got a lot of people talking about that. Yeah. Thank you. OK, I'm gonna move on now to talking about our community, if that's ok with everybody. Yeah, OK. So as I said before Elizabeth and I went on a national tour, we started in Dunedin. We finished in Wellington, but we went there via Christchurch, [00:59:00] Nelson, Wellington, Gisborne, Auckland, Hamilton, Palmerston North and then Wellington again. And some of those places we held multiple, um, overall. And then we went back to Auckland again, actually. So overall, we held 20 around the country. We had more than 240 people come to, um one of our, um we held with ethnicity specific groups to try and hold some [00:59:30] safe spaces and talking about racism. So we held a with equation in Auckland, Um, with and box events in Wellington at love life for, um And then we held some general community who as well, and we held a trans specific Who in Auckland, too. So, um, a whole bunch of different kinds of ways of trying to include conversation, Um, amazing experience, I have to say, wandering around the country and firstly, trying to make sure we had a shared, [01:00:00] shared understanding of these things and then talking about what we needed to sort it amazing. I felt incredibly enriched by the conversations. And I know some of the people who are in the room we're at the in the different places. So it's nice to see you came back. Um, I'm gonna share some real topline kind of, um, we got So we've got 45 pages of notes type written bullet pointed notes that I'm sure everyone in the advisory group has gone through thoroughly a T um, [01:00:30] incredibly rich, incredibly rich information, the top line stuff. So no one knows where to go for help, So we're keeping it inside our communities. We're talking to each other about it. If we're talking about it at all. Um, the second bullet point? Absolutely. Extraordinarily. What I found people knew most about in terms of partner violence was psychological abuse. Now, that is completely different. I've done lots of community education around domestic violence that is completely different from what happens when you try and do [01:01:00] ordinary community education. Um, and I'm gonna remind us of this slide that talked about all of the different ways controlling stuff happens in our communities. My sense of this is that we recognise psychological abuse because we're seeing it around us, and we're experiencing it ourselves. Um, the the skill that people had in talking about that now was quite something. Um, our local services were really not very well known about it all, especially for sexual violence. No one knew. Not [01:01:30] one person in the country knew their local Maori service, not one person in the country. That is absolutely heartbreaking when you think of the knowledge that our Maori services hold, um, almost equally invisible were male survivors services. It's fair to say that when people had gone to services and and I want to, um, kind of stress here that I don't think that everyone came to our community who we filled in the survey. And I don't think that everyone who fill in the survey came to our community. Who? I think there were some different people and some crossover [01:02:00] people who came to our community who, when they had tried to access services, had had really mixed experiences. And that's probably a kind way of putting it, To be honest, um, I'm gonna share just one story because it's still burning in me. A trans woman who'd been married for 10 years, called the police. Finally, after many years of abuse, um, she'd just been raped. The police came to her house. Her husband said he'd only [01:02:30] just found out She was Trans. The police went away again. End of story. Yeah. Hm. I didn't hear one story from one queer man anywhere in the country of being taken seriously by the police when they report reported sexual assault, not one. Um we heard lots of stories of people, and I think this is This is something that's really interesting for us to think about because we talk to each other, [01:03:00] because when we experience some kind of discrimination at a service that can mean that that service almost becomes unable to by everybody. Um, and so there was a bit of that going on. And in one place we were asked for one of the agencies in the in that area not to come to the So there is a bit of that going on around the country. Um, but actually, a lot of the stuff was based on, you know, trying to access services or trying to support friends, to access services and not getting good stuff happening [01:03:30] what people said they wanted. And and And we didn't just ask questions about services. We asked questions about all kinds of things, but one of the sets of questions was around the services, and we asked them what they wanted. And people said they wanted to know that when they went to a specialist domestic or sexual violence agency, that that place was gonna know who we are. They were gonna be rainbow competent. Basically, um, they weren't gonna say things to us like, Oh, you're probably queer because you were sexually assaulted, which had been said to some of our people around the country. Um, they weren't going to be told [01:04:00] that that stuff always happens in lesbian relationships. OK, so they want They want to know that that stuff is not gonna happen to them when they seek help. Um, they want to know where to go, because actually, at the moment, firstly, the services are invisible, and secondly, there's a real lack of clarity around who can go with, and that's particularly true around gender stuff. So the fact that the sexual and domestic violence sectors treat sex as binary and as something that doesn't change from when you're born is a real problem for our communities, because that's [01:04:30] not how we experience our gender. Um, and finally, people talked a lot about wanting relationships between our rainbow agencies and our, um, our sexual violence and domestic violence specialist services. So actually wanting some surety that that stuff was going to be held well, yeah, OK, in terms of prevention, people said some really interesting stuff. Um, the first thing and this was said absolutely everywhere by many, many, many, many, many people [01:05:00] was that they wanted healthy relationships and consent information with visible rainbow content in our schools everywhere. So they wanted to have, um, ways to learn how to navigate and negotiate consent that were relevant to rainbow people. Um, I was kind of shocked about that. That's one of my passions, but I was really shocked that it was shared by 240 people around the country. It was awesome, Um, people at the second point, really interesting. People really want to see role models in a whole bunch of different [01:05:30] formats of what healthy relationships look like, and they want really diverse examples of that. So they don't want the idea that a healthy relationship is a relationship that lasted 25 years and looks like this. They want non monogamous relationships. They want relationships where people talk about what makes it healthy. Not I've been with that person for seven years. Therefore, it's a good relationship. I thought that was cool. I really liked it, and they also want to make sure that the people that we show around that aren't just as white people. Yeah, So there was lots of comment about that. Um [01:06:00] they wanted content about violence and relationships which was relevant to us, and I think you can see that some of our questions and some of the responses to that show that we're having quite specific experiences of violence. They want that visible and violence prevention content that's being created, Um, which is a good challenge for us, really. They wanted more rainbow support around vulnerable periods. And this is the stuff that you were talking about in terms of the coming out and the vulnerability. Or maybe I was talking about it in relation to you. [01:06:30] Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that stuff around, um, your rainbow age and that being taken, taken advantage of people wanted some stuff around that that was going to be safe and, um, wrap around. Really? Um, people wanted people talked a lot. A lot of queer men talked about, um, some of the, um websites and so on being really incredibly racist to to navigate. Um, So people in several who were in the country people [01:07:00] talked about no Asians being pretty universal. Um, so lots of conversation about how we dealt with that. And people wanted ways to handle violence inside our community because there was a distrust of what would happen when we report Yeah, which is challenging, I think, for many reasons. But OK, Pete. So we are at 4. 26. I have some quotes to share from things that people shared with us. We're supposed to finish at 4. 30. Would people like to [01:07:30] go through those quotes before we finish up? Is that OK? Yeah. OK, so I've I've chosen some quotes that I think illustrate some of the things that people talked about a lot. We had 30 pages worth of information on our barriers that we'd asked for. So this is someone who said they were molested between 11 and 13, raped at the age of 19. The night that they were raped. They phoned a rape helpline for help were told because they were transgender and not [01:08:00] a real woman. They wouldn't help when they phoned Gay Line. Although they were sympathetic, the person on the phone said they didn't have the skills to help them. This person says they felt more hurt by the women's refuge rape helpline than they did by the actual rape. Honestly, and for 30 years, they've never forgiven refugee and rape crisis because of it. Hm. So lots of conversations about people that had tried to access gender specific services and policing around gender, meaning that that service wasn't accessible [01:08:30] to them. Lots of conversation about that seeking advice This is someone who says that they work really hard to be seen as a man to avoid harassment and violence by strangers. Experiencing abuse at the hands of women and other non men undermines that as an a trans person. There aren't many places that this person can go to feel safe to talk about abuse repeatedly heard people deny abuse because partners too firm or not masculine enough to engage in violence feels really hesitant to report abuse [01:09:00] because they don't want to contribute to the false stereotype of trans people. As as abusers, hugely complicated when our loyalty to our community is stopping us seeking help because we know that how that person might be dealt with is likely to be horrific. Lots of conversation about that. OK, this next one. So this is someone saying that no one talks about same sex, intimate partner violence or sexual violence that they knew they were [01:09:30] hurt. They knew it had changed them forever. They were too ashamed to seek help or label it abuse because they were both female, 16 to 18. When it happened, they were worried people would think they were lying because abuse only happens to people over 18 by people over 18. Didn't think anyone would believe them. Abusers stalked them for six months after the relationship ended. Even then, I still felt like I couldn't go to the police due to homophobia and ageism. Thought they would just think we were two teenage girls who were only friends, having spare about nothing when in reality [01:10:00] they'd been sexually assaulted, threatened with date rape, had threats made and carried out against their life, stalked, abused by girlfriend. What this person says is that the heteronormative that surrounds the subject of abuse prevented them from getting the help that they needed. So I think there's a whole bunch of stuff going on here around how seriously we take violence towards young people. A, as well as the homophobia that they're talking about. Nick [01:10:30] took this person seven years after they first experienced abuse to seek help. Barriers included being aware of lack of funding and support for sexual violence services, feeling like what they'd experienced wasn't bad enough to deserve help despite experiencing PTSD being unsure if they could find a counsellor who would understand them and that it might take time and trust to build up what had happened. Worrying organisations would be homophobic biphobic or transphobic about partners and make assumptions that they were queer because of being abused. [01:11:00] That was talked about a lot around sexual assault, that people had had experiences of going to services where that assumption had been made and that people were terrified of that assumption being made. OK, the quote I'm gonna finish with, we didn't, um we didn't have a section on Tell us how you feel about what we've done. But lots of people, um, took time and energy to [01:11:30] give us feedback through the survey anyway, which was incredibly generous and beautiful, and I'm really grateful for it. All of the stuff we got was along these kind of lines. So it was people talking about having tried to find somewhere that was specialised, wanting to do something like that themselves and feeling really grateful that the survey existed because they'd been able to talk about what had happened to them, um, and thanking us for the work that we've done to provide the [01:12:00] resources that were there on that are there on the site? Um, I have to say I felt incredibly humbled by that, and I want to kind of put it up there because I think this stuff is really hard to talk about. Hey, I mean, I don't know how everyone's feeling about what I've just shared today, but actually, we have to talk about it. It's not going anywhere if we don't talk about it A And I guess I want to honour the people that we're brave enough to share both in the community. Who [01:12:30] we And in the survey and honour the fact that lots of people, you know, we've got I've got hundreds of pages of notes now on this from around the country. Um, we've got a lot of work to do on it, and and and the next stage for us is really to put together this information in a format that doesn't involve me having to talk to it every time. Um um And to put together to tell people what what people around the country have asked for in terms of of doing things to, um, to interrupt how this violence is happening and doing [01:13:00] things to build more healthy communities for us. Um, but I feel it feels like the time is right to me. Like I feel like we wouldn't have got that level of engagement and that level of, um, people taking care if people weren't ready to do this. So I guess, Emory, that your comment at the beginning about where it had got to I It's got to people wanting to do something, and I'm thrilled about that. Yeah, and that's all I've got. Will this be published in a report format to make it? Absolutely. Some of us, [01:13:30] like I think there's a lot of government agencies that need the information sort of in a form to sort of say this because they can't just sort of say, Hey, I think that yeah, no, I completely agree. I went in to talk to Ms D about it, um, a week ago to present this to them, and they are going to hold a cross government on it, so yeah, that's gonna happen quite soon, I think. Anyway, thank you so much for coming and chatting with me. I really don't want people to be holding on to the horrors of what that was like. So [01:14:00] I hope we've got good self-care planned for the afternoon and evening. Um, so happy to talk about this afterwards with anyone who wants to stop and chat with me. Um, join the mailing list. If you're not already on it, you can do it by accessing the website. The information is on the website. Um, yeah, Let's do something about this thing. OK, cool.

IRN: 1053
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ATL REF: OHDL-004427
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089721
TITLE: Joleen Mataele - Proud 2016
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Joey Siosaia Joleen Mataele
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bible; Born Again Christian; Catholicism; Fiji; HIV / AIDS; HIV education; HIV stigma; HIV testing data; HRH Princess Salote Pilolevu; Hawaii; Hon Salote Lupepau'u Tuita; International Women of Courage 2016 Awards; Joey Siosaia Joleen Mataele; Miss Galaxy Pageant; Mormonism; Pacific; Pacific Human Rights Conference (2015); Pacific Sexual Diversity Network (PSDN); Papiloa Foliaki; Proud 2016 (Wellington); Royal Palace of the Kingdom of Tonga; Tonga; Tonga Leitis Association; United States of America; University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine; Vanuatu; Wellington; birth certificate; blood; chef; church; clothing; colonisation; community; condoms; design; dresses; education; employment; facebook. com; facial hair; faggot; fakaleiti; family; family violence; femininity; forgiveness; friends; funding; grandparents; growing up; hair; hairdressing; holistic view; hospital; human rights; identity; identity documents; inheritance; internet; intersex; invisibility; labels; lesbian; love; marginalisation; marriage equality; mirror; newspapers; nurse; peace; poofter; queer; rape; religion; research; rural; scar; school; sewing; sexual abuse; sexual health; singing; social media; suffering; suicide; support; sustainability; testing; trans; transgender; transition; transphobic violence; workshop
DATE: 11 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine, Mein Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Good afternoon, everyone. Um, I'm just gonna give you a AAA little bit of background about the the association. Um, the TL A was, uh, established in 1992 when we first, um, it's a thought from when we first had the, um the first HIV and AIDS person, Um, who is a very dear friend [00:00:30] of mine and, uh, also a member of our transgender community association. And, um, when the family brought him back, um, from the states to die in Tonga, I just so happened to be on the same plane. And I didn't even know that he was on the flight until we took off, took off from from Hawaii. And, um, my cousin, who was working for for Hawaiian Airlines, [00:01:00] came up to me and said, Joe, can you help me out? And I said this was 1987 right? And you think that the United States are already in knowledgeable of HIV and all that, but no, the workers of Hawaiian Airlines didn't want to serve him because he was They knew he was a a HIV. I mean, he was an AIDS person. Um, because of the medical, it he was transferred from one hospital to to the [00:01:30] other. But anyways, we finally made it through, um, from from, uh, Hawaii to after sitting there because the whole trip was more like, uh, we've cried. We've talked about the past we the things that we went through because both of us sing and, um, in school, we used to be that we used to think [00:02:00] that we were the best singer on earth, you know? And, um and, uh, thank you. Hi. Um, So two months before that, before we came, when I got to the States, he called. He called me to Los Angeles for me to come and see him come and visit him and he'll pay for me to come. And I said, Yeah, yeah, sure, sure. The [00:02:30] whole week that I was there, he was trying to open up to me to tell me that he's got AIDS, that he was dying. He's on that stage, but he couldn't have the guts to tell me. So even I even left. So by the time I got to, we got to to Hawaii. When we finally came on the flight, I was so angry, I was more angry at him for not telling me the truth. And I totally forgot [00:03:00] that he was an AIDS person. I think the the love between friends was more stronger than thinking of the disease of the epidemic. And, um but what caught me later, when we arrived in Tonga, the the hospital was already there, the ambulance and everything. And when we got off the flight, you thought that you see [00:03:30] moon walkers. They were all covered up from top to bottom. That's it. The only thing you see is this. And it was a What's this? What's going on? And, um, somebody said, Oh, they're here for for Edward. And I said, Oh, so I, I left. But after Edward died, they found out that I was with him on the flight. [00:04:00] Then they came and harassed me. The Ministry of Health harassed me to come and have HIV testing because I was sitting next to him because the father said, When I got on the flight, when I came and sit with her, I told the father to go and sit on the side and let me sit with him. Let the father rest because I know the family very well. And, um, [00:04:30] he vomited and everything during the flight, you know? And but I wasn't I. I wasn't thinking, but I was more worried about what's going on. So anyways, when they finally, um, got me to come and have my blood test, that's when I had the fear, whether this is right or not. So here I am, 24 hours Googling what's because [00:05:00] II I don't know whether I was I really knew what I was doing, you know? And, um So after I got tested, I, I, uh I was negative. And then from 1987 to 1992 4 doctors started, uh, got together and, um, decided to see what they can do for our community [00:05:30] to educate them on health on HIV how to protect themselves. Because, of course, condom was there, but nobody knew about. I mean I mean, they knew how what what's it for? But we couldn't be bothered using it, you know, Um And then in 1992 when we started the the association, we started with five members and, um, the full name of the [00:06:00] association. Yes, it should be to, but of course, in Tonga. Everything is you know, it's And uh um is, um, like a proper way of saying thank you to elderly people. And when you're addressing formal, you know, So everything in Tonga is [00:06:30] So instead of using that, we said, Oh, because the first correspondence that we did with trying to get fund um, when we first started was someone turned around and said, What does mean? OK, this is enough already. I think we'll take the FA K a part and just use because it sounds better at the same time, we didn't really like the sound of [00:07:00] the people calling us because it sounded like a poop, like saying or faggot or, you know, and and and just the way they express it, you know, And um so is a woman or like a lady or Yeah. And, uh So because the transgender community or the community were more visible, we decided [00:07:30] to start off with that with the ladies organising a group together. So five of us got together and started the the the association. We got registered in the government, um, had a constitution registered, and then the next move was trying to get someone in the hierarchy level to be a patron. So we, [00:08:00] um, approached Her Royal Highness the Princess Royal to and, um, ask her because she was the patron for the Family Health Association or the Tong Family Planning, Um, association. And, um, when we went and asked her, she said, Um, OK, I don't want to be your patron because I'm already a patron of the [00:08:30] family planning, um, of the Tong Family Association. Um, I think it's better that I get my daughter to be your patient. Um, so she picked up the phone while we were sitting there on, um, and called New Zealand. She was still in, was still in and called her and said, Uh uh, Joe is here with, um be [00:09:00] asking if you can be Would you be, uh, the patron for the association? And, um, she said yes. From then on, Princess has been our patron up to today for 24 years now, and a lot has achieved through I mean, um, cutting the the barriers. Um, and I mean, there's there's still a few [00:09:30] things that needs to be done, you know, um, the problem with with with, um with Tonga is. Association has long has a long and complex history. You know, it's a history of, um, survival, Um, history that has been governed by, uh, um with diverse and contesting ways of understanding. Um, but, um, it situates them outside the normal [00:10:00] or the, um, Tongan ways, You know, in the society, um, mainly because of their distinctive behaviours and perceived falling outside the Tongan ways. Um and, um, some. Somehow it it needs to be, um, we recognise that through the, uh, positioning outside the or the ways there is [00:10:30] tendency to perceive TL a and its people in a simplicity simplistic way that does treat them, treat them marginal. Marginal. Um um community. And, um, can I just ask, was it marginalised pre colonisation? Or did that happen after colonisation or you really? You really colonised as such, Um, which [00:11:00] gave which Elizabeth's, um uh, presentation yesterday gave us an idea. You know of that? We need to go back to the roots to when Tonga started before colonisation. You know, because there was with the history of Tonga, there was no labelling, no barriers, no. Everybody was treated the same. The only one that was different was making that the was [00:11:30] the king. And there was always the the three standards of King Noble and commoners, you know, but but yeah, yeah, but there was no difference between LGBT. Everybody was the same, you know, um, and one thing I I noticed when I was when I was a kid. Um, growing up with my grandmother, going [00:12:00] to the palace every weekend, every single shift at the palace because the the king and the queen had their own chef. The crown prince had his own chef. The princess and the rest of the the royal Children had their own chef, you know, And they were all gay. No one was straight at all, you know, And and some of them got married, but still gay. You know, they still had a little relationship [00:12:30] here and there. But there was no talk, you know, or a fuss about it because of their, uh, status or gender. You know, um, and growing up in a I had I had a really weird way of growing up because I because, well, my mother passed away when I was five months old, and I grew up in a couple that were [00:13:00] both founders of the two biggest strong churches in Tonga, Mormon and Catholic. And, um, my grandmother was Catholic, and that's why I'm a Catholic and my grandfather was a Mormon, And, uh, when I grew up with him, there was no confliction or no fighting over any religion at all. You know, when it's when it was the moment celebration [00:13:30] was going on, all of us will get ready. Go to the moments when the Catholic celebration goes on the whole lot of the moment. Children and grandchildren went to the Catholic. There was no fighting, no labelling, no, you know, over of a religion. So I grew up with that knowledge of that peace, you know, within the family. And I had that foundation. My problem started [00:14:00] when I grew up, and I and I left school when I was in Form two. I was That was year eight. and my grandmother was always saying right and the life you've chosen will be very hard for you. But if you need, if you want to be [00:14:30] somebody, you have to learn to forgive. Forgive yourself for what you've chosen, because if you do not forgive yourself you won't be able to forgive others. All the negativity that you go through, you're not gonna be able to deal with it unless you learn to forgive. Because forgive is better than sacrifice. Because I know you. And she was pointing out in my right in my face that you have a temper [00:15:00] that could kill anybody. And so I grew up with that. But the problem I had was was with my brother and my father because I was never close to my father. Well, I never knew my father until I went to high school. Um, until I saw my birth certificate that grandpa was not my my my real father. But anyways, my father was more OK [00:15:30] with me being a but he wasn't good with me wearing dresses and, um, in 14. Well, in my when I was a baby, when I turned one, I was dressed in a KK dress Cos. And I was carried by my by my auntie. So to me, I, I think I as I grew up, it wasn't because someone dressed [00:16:00] me. It was a natural thing to grow up in as a AT, you know, like because there's There's so much writing up on this on the situations that your seven boys and the youngest one will be treated or dressed as a as a as a as a female, you know, to me, that's not right, because if you're dressed up as a girl or treated like a girl, a lot of boys in Tonga are treated like a girl. You do the errands, [00:16:30] the women's errands, and you help your mother at home. But that doesn't make you AAA that person. Just grow up and be a guy, you know. And so but a lot of us who grew up as a woman who feels like a woman live as a woman, um, has grown up since birth to what we are today, you know, And to me, that's I mean to me personally is a natural thing. Uh, like a one year old, [00:17:00] you were showing signs of being a late. I was I was, as my grandmother was saying, um, as I grew up, I seem to be, um, closer. I mean, doing female stuff and I'll be sitting there. I think I was, uh, one, or I mean two or three years old and she had her pearls [00:17:30] on the on the on the desk. I think she just came back from a function, took her pearls and put it on the on the table and I'll be walking over. But instead of her stopping me, she was watching me the whole time, whether I was gonna break it or I don't know. But instead of breaking it, I picked it up and buckled it [00:18:00] up again, you know, and she then I instead of throwing it, I put it back in. She had a little box and put it and put it in the box. You know, I she was noticing me, and then I seemed to be on the mirror all the time combing my hair. That's I think that's why I was a beautician. Um, and I seem to be wearing liking to wearing dresses, you know, And, um [00:18:30] So when I grew up, I had that femininity and, you know, um, in me and and trying all the time, even in school, that's II. I guess that I don't know, but I got beaten up quite a few. Yeah, Yes. And But while I was going through that or you call it transition or whatever? Um, [00:19:00] I had a hard time for with my brother, my one of my eldest brother. Um, I got roped, hanged, almost choked about six times and just trying. He was trying hard for me to speak like a man, talk like a man, act like a man. But it never worked. You know, I was going through a whole lot of shit from a lot [00:19:30] of my family members, you know? And even my father had almost beat me up in the middle of the of a government function for coming in and address. Um, but I remember the first time I even walked into church when I was 14 in a blue pleater dress. I think that was the biggest flow show ever at Mass. [00:20:00] And, of course, my grandmother was always sitting at the front, so I had to take her up to the front the whole time. Everything. I. I think the father just ended up stopping because everybody wasn't watching him. Everybody was watching us walking. Then my grandmother. All I could hear was my grandmother said, Sit down. So I sat down. Then the father continued on from that day, I worn dresses [00:20:30] to church up to today and through just instead of me trying to prove something, I and instead II I went, I went in and joined the community. You know, I went and help out with the choirs, the youth, the Sunday school, you know, whatever I can do to help, you know, [00:21:00] so that the church can just stop all the labelling and everything you know, and get my transgender community to come in and help in whatever way, you know, Um, it was a lot more easier then for us to be who we are and to dress up the way we are every day to church, [00:21:30] to a party, to a government function to anywhere. You know, um, but at the at the same time, it wasn't easy when you're going out to the rural areas of the country, because when it came to to HIV education going out to the to the to the villages, it was [00:22:00] more challenging than you living in town, you know, because as soon as you turn around and say we're here to educate you on HIV and AIDS, they all turn around, stood up and say, Who are you? Why don't you go to the down to the city area? To your kind. To your kind. You know, Why don't you go to your kind? They are the ones who are going. We go out and do sinful [00:22:30] things and boy and whatever. So one thing that's good is that we find that it is very useful to actually have your data, your HIV testing data, you know, to show them that I mean, since 1992 to today all our 148 members are HIV [00:23:00] free. So having that proves to them and also the national data saying, Excuse me out of the 19 people over here, none of these are a AAA trend. The ones that are still still sick up to today are the so called ST Straight Church goers like you, You, you and you. You know, [00:23:30] So that helped out helped a lot. But I don't know maybe that saying you know, you can take the man out of the bush, but you can never take the bush out of the man. That mentality still sticks in their mind, you know? Then they change the the the the wording to OK, forget about the HIV and AIDS. Why don't you go [00:24:00] and read the Bible? I remember on the first when we first started the association, our first ever workshop was with the church leaders, the actual presidents. And, you know, the top clergy of all the churches. The first president of the Tong Eighties Association, who is our founder, who is Mrs Palo Fo straight [00:24:30] woman as she owned a nightclub in in to a hotel and the she's the first female member of Parliament. Um and, um right when we when we had the first workshop, uh, with the church leaders after formality, one of the president of the Church of Tonga stood up and and [00:25:00] said, You you are a sinner. You collect all these Children over here to promote their sexual sodomy life, and he went on and on and on and on, and, uh, after that, he sat down. Then Mrs stood up and said, um paid her respects and Honourable Minister. [00:25:30] So so And so I'd like to ask you, which bible are you reading? Because the Bible I'm reading is totally different from what you're saying. You're reading the Bible I'm I'm reading is I mean says, do not judge and love your neighbours. These Children are my neighbours. My neighbours is not the people that are staying at my hotel. My [00:26:00] neighbour is not my sister That's staying from across the road or the or the Tongan who brings me food every Sunday? No, these are my neighbours Strangers. I don't even know who they are. But I love them because they are a member of our community and they belong to this community. That is the reason why I brought them together to form this network For us [00:26:30] to recognise that these Children belongs in this community and they belong in this country that we need to help them. If you want their lives to be good, then you better give them the support. Otherwise you're just gonna chase them away and they're gonna move from one bad situation to another. So you tell me, which bible are you reading? Because I'm sure we're reading the different total different Bible altogether. So [00:27:00] after she sat down, then the bishop, then the late bishop of Catholic bishop, stood up and calm things down and said, Maybe it's time for us church leaders to get out of our comfort zone, you know, and be good shepherds. If you want to be good shepherds, we need to recognise the the work that this lady is doing. So since [00:27:30] then, things has been, was a little better. We still have one particular church that are still against us, you know, And, uh, I don't know whether any of you saw one of the the first ever Pacific LGBT conference that we had held in Tonga last year. We had that particular church of 12 people standing [00:28:00] outside from across the road with a banner Get out of our country. We don't need homosexuality. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You are evil, you know, and all that. I think it just made us more determined to make sure that the conference was going on until it's finished. And we made so much noise from across the road from we had live entertainment at lunch time. [00:28:30] And, um, yeah, but we had a, um We had quite a lot of good feedback from the community that we worked with. Um, ok, should I stop here and let you guys ask questions? Entertained I [00:29:00] and like chocolate. Enjoying whatever. So would you like to say something? We When? When In in your own In your own culture. The what does that exactly mean? Like a lady. See, the the the real word is more, um, more related to to the Samoan word. [00:29:30] Yeah, um, it's the The was never a common word. It was. That was a word that was brought in by all these researchers. That right, that came to do researches about. We never used, you know? Then when we started using that, um, that that's when we decided to take the FA K a part, you know, [00:30:00] um and just use. But it wasn't a tradition. It's not a traditional word for but can a can a person identifies as a male? But it's a feminine. Can he be considered a lazy? No, but we call everyone. And because we don't really have a specific word for G, BT, IQIQ and all that and some of them, maybe we I know of of two members [00:30:30] of our of our association are intersex. But I had to actually explain to them why I'm classifying them as intersex. So they know the difference between LGBTI Q. You know, um, but when it comes to all those terminologies, we don't use that back at home. So we just use everybody late, even a lesbian. We call them, you know, even the I mean, the common conversation [00:31:00] at home is like, um, as soon as a lesbian walk in to, you know, just to visit or to all our our get together. Oh, lady. Hello. Come, come in. You know, so everybody is a lady we don't have, You know, we don't really It it kind of means that anyone who identifies opposite to his or her set aside and it's just really interesting because [00:31:30] you you guys never really used that word. It was other people who actually Yeah, actually labelled that, um What about gay men? They are, Yeah. We have got a food game, and, you know, the the the lesbians are not as visible as the the G and the L and the B. You know, um and T [00:32:00] Yeah. I notice that in the Polynesian culture cooks, the lesbians are invisible, and if they're visible, they don't want to come. They some of them like it. I know that the the the lesbian. Um, uh, community don't really want to come and join the, um, the transgender [00:32:30] community, you know, they'd rather be on their own. And they do their own thing. Yeah, I think one of maybe one of the reasons could be the whole framing. The whole organising of the lay has been framed in such a way. They can only cater to the specific needs of like, how do you Yeah, and not to address the other issues. Not only not [00:33:00] only that, but it's because it's but because none of them were very comfortable to come in to come out publicly, you know, until we invited them to to come and join us. Then we had a couple to join us when we first started. Now we've got about eight that are actually out, but they don't want to form their own organisation. They just want to be [00:33:30] in within the the ladies association. Um, because they feel more comfortable. They don't want to be because a lot of of people, they rather see transgender LA than dealing with lesbians. You know, um, after I addressed that particular church that came and stood with the banner, then that president of the church changed his [00:34:00] method of preaching the very next Sunday and saying, OK, if, uh the transgenders, the ladies are fine, but the lesbians blah, blah, blah, blah. He was totally against lesbian. I said, what a bloody freaking hypocrite. And I even posted on that on Facebook. I said, How can you teach about ladies that are OK? But no lesbian? You come from a family. Your family are just full of lesbians. Left, [00:34:30] right and centre. Yeah. So does that apply to all Pacific islands? The terms? Yeah. The the lesbians come to, um, or visible enough. Fiji is totally They've got their Yeah, yeah. Um, I think the bisexual, um, bisexuals are invisible. Yeah, [00:35:00] we only have, like, a certain amount of people who identify intersex. I just know one who plays rugby for the Fijian rugby women's team. Yeah, I think there's a lot of things, you know, not a lot of conversation around intersex in the Pacific. Um, I'm really interested to know more because we were talking about back at home just recently. How you guys have gone ahead with your economic empowerment. Uh, work? [00:35:30] You guys are opening a cafe. That's pretty impressive. Um, the solidarity within the late session. There's something we can find in Fiji for the trans movement. Very like, you know, just activist, not holistic development, you know, in sub generation, their livelihood, uh, sustainable livelihoods. We are just focused on human rights work. But the late what we see, they, they're [00:36:00] like in when they are working within the LGBT community, they're not only strengthening their knowledge and information on HIV and human rights, they also building the capacity. I mean, building on the talent that's already there in sewing in performance income generation. Amazing. Well, it took a lot of conversations, you know? And, um, a few international trips [00:36:30] to actually abuse them there. You know, the government representatives that came, um, to all the CS W and all that, um because they go and do their reports that everything's fine, you know? But the government hasn't even done anything to help them. The marginalised communities, you know, um, the sexual minority organisations. So, um, [00:37:00] TL a has been running with no funding, no core funding at all, you know? And we have. When we first started in 1992 we decided that we'll have because, to be honest with you, none of us were well educated. The whole five members were not well educated, you know. And, um uh, for our first president was the only well educated person. And, um, because in Tonga, [00:37:30] it's so small that every single week, there's a church fundraising for every church, you know, and it's the same people. You, you know, the youths and the sports will have their fundraising, and it's the same people you ask every day. So we decided that we'll have a pageant. That's when we started the the, um, Miss Galaxy Queen pageant. So Miss Galaxy Queen pageant [00:38:00] had fund. Has funded the ladies association up to today, Not only just paying the bills, but no, the The only thing we don't have a paid staff. Everything is based on volunteer work. Um, it funds for this year we've funded, um, our 52. Yeah. 52 [00:38:30] um, scholarships for our school dropouts. Um, we've been able to secure jobs for those who graduated. Starting started businesses for them. Um um And then in nine in 2013, we finally were able to establish an office. We worked from my [00:39:00] little, um, business with and even from home the whole time. Um, now we've established an office and, uh, then in into that, then when we Yeah, when we first when we opened the the the office, we invited our cardinal now our new cardinal, to come and bless the office. And he was gracious enough to come and and, uh and and bless it. [00:39:30] And, um also, we had our Princess Royal to come and do the actual opening. Um, from that we sort of made our move to the government because we had all the government representatives over there and members of parliament. We had the prime minister. We had everyone at the opening. We even stopped the main road. Yes. And, uh, yeah, the neighbours were all [00:40:00] complaining that evening. Why is it that the Trans people the ladies are allowed to stop the road? Anyways, Um uh, we approached the government for assistance. That's when they finally said yes. OK, we'll, um, give you $5000 every year. So since then, they've been able [00:40:30] to they've been giving us the money. And with that money and the money that we the little bit that we have left over from Doug. This galaxy, we're now moving to have a little build a little cafe. We've been able to get buy machines, um, sewing machines for some of our, um the our ladies who has been gra graduating from technical schools. Who wants to do businesses? Yeah, [00:41:00] designs and all that. And, uh, and of course, hairdressers. We've been able to get them to join the A PTC, um, fund aid to go to Fiji Samoa. And where else do they have in Vanuatu? Yeah, for technical to all those technical schools and come back. And and we help them to, um, start [00:41:30] their own business. So it hasn't been, uh, an easy ride for us, especially with no funding, but because of the passion that we have, um, for the work that we do, you know, that's why we are still alive. Um, it hasn't been easy. We're still dealing with a lot of shit from a lot of people. Um uh, especially [00:42:00] 2. 5 weeks ago, I got, um, awarded and nominated for the, uh, moment of Courage award by the US state. Um and, um, the last 2. 5 weeks has been hell on Earth because it's people that you have known people. [00:42:30] You have helped people within your family that, you know, to be so called supported. You know, uh, the backstabbers, you know, it took that international recognition to actually bring out the true colours of everyone, you know? So have they been jealous? And yes, you know, it was posting on Facebook. [00:43:00] They posted on other pages for me not to see it, but unfortunately, some of those friends of mine that know me very well in my family reposted it on my page. Not on my I mean, not on my page, but inboxed it to me, you know, and especially with transgenders from our community that are so-called born [00:43:30] again, Christian when I got that and then last Saturday and maybe you If you're on Facebook, you go into my page and I. I posted it on there, but it's I started with Matthew chapter something Do not judge, you know, And I poured out my heart out was something that I have never shared in my life. My past [00:44:00] is out there in public now things that I I've never mentioned it to anyone. My grandmother was the only one that has that know that knew about it, you know, being raped at 14, um, things that Yeah, yeah, that I would have never been able [00:44:30] to share publicly. But after going through all that, all those negativities it brought back the suffering that I went through in life. And I think I was in the verge of killing myself because at the same time, I think the computer and the Facebook took all my attention. And I was just typing like there [00:45:00] was no tomorrow. My hands. But my fingers were typing and I was pouring my eyes off. Then this was five o'clock in the morning because everything just bulked up on me and I couldn't. I couldn't carry it anymore. I couldn't carry the burden anymore, you know? I was asking God, why am I born? Why was I born like this? Why am I still alive? Should I just I should just take my life and get it over and done with. Why am [00:45:30] I suffering? I mean, 52 years of my life, I'm still suffering. I thought everything's fine now, you know. But no, it's still killing me. It's still, you know, people are still there trying to grab you and strangle you. And and I think, um I think after an hour of of that [00:46:00] after it was I I Finally I when when I finally press enter and that everything went online, I finally realised what I was doing. And I tell you, it was the most beautiful feeling ever, you know, because I have never I've kept [00:46:30] that inside me for too long, you know? And I've never experienced anything like that, you know? And I didn't know that my sister was online at that very moment. I think it was. After 10 minutes of pressing that enter button, the phone rang. [00:47:00] And that's when I really poured out my heart because she's never known. I mean, even she all my I've got. Mind you. I've got about 42 brothers and sisters. I know. My father was 42 42 brothers and sisters Blood. My father got married three times after one died, but he [00:47:30] had other mistresses, and the problem I had with him was he never bothered to look at himself of what he was doing. He was way up high with his money business member of parliament, You know, with that status. But when I turn around and wear a dress, he didn't like it. And, [00:48:00] um um, so I didn't have a good relationship with him until 2008 when he was in his death bed. Um, I ended up being his nurse, you know, being the person who was who looked after him the whole time, and we [00:48:30] made peace. But even though you made peace with that person, even my brother who hanged me Um, yeah, that, um, Scar will always be inside you for the rest of your life. Um, it will never go away. You know, I tried, Believe me, I've tried to wipe it away out of my [00:49:00] life, but it has has never gone away. And I think that scar will be with me for the rest of my life. But after letting go of all my past publicly, I have been able to talk about it. But now I you know, I've done presentations and all this and that in all these international, but I've never shared my personal life like how I do I do today [00:49:30] but I feel a lot more freer that I have let go. You know of that past, um, and be able to talk about it because it has lifted that burden for out of me, you know, and I feel free, and I feel more encouraged that I need to help those who are still suffering from it. [00:50:00] I just found out yesterday that I was in the front page of our paper. Yeah, Um, apparently, the paper took everything that was on Facebook, the share that I did on the post that I did on Facebook and posted in on the paper. And, uh, well, the paper belongs to a member of our, uh, the person it belongs to the our church. [00:50:30] And, um, he got back. Apparently he was He's been emailing me, but I've been busy with the conference, and I didn't even check my mail because he was asking if he can press it. I mean, if he can put it on the paper, but it well, it's out there, but, uh, I have I have never seen something that I that I have posted that has been shared publicly so much [00:51:00] from a lot of people, you know, and and, um, the amount of response has been miraculous, you know? And the funny thing is, right after that, things are happening now in Tonga. There's been reporting of sexual abuse of little Children. There's been two girls just from two [00:51:30] weeks from last Sunday to now. We've got four cases, you know, and I. I just hope because these things have has been happening in Tonga, you know, and especially when happened, everyone thought that we were the ones who were pushing for it. You know, they changed everything from woman to lay, [00:52:00] and they were while they were doing the marching against. They were talking about homosexuality instead of talking about women's rights. So it it didn't really help us at all, you know? But you know, the drag queens at home, they took pictures of every single group and naming. OK, your son [00:52:30] went with this drag queen. You you went with this one's brother. That's how it was. That's how bad it was. And I actually had to come in and stop it because they were the the the the the ladies. The our members were angry because they were being marginalised. by some of their families and all that because, you know, they [00:53:00] thought they keep thinking is totally the ladies are in it. And if we allow, the ladies will be able to marry. It's all about you know, they were jumping into conclusion gay marriage, gay marriage, gay marriage, same sex marriage. But instead of saying gay marriage, they said, uh, homosexuality is evil. Uh, all these little messages, um, [00:53:30] was written on, you know, So that's what our members turned around and said took pictures of it and posted it on Facebook and said, You, you, you with all these. And then we had quite a few families that called back to us and said, Can you please ask your members to delete their posting? And I turned around and said, Well, tell your marchers [00:54:00] to burn their banners so that the can delete it. Because if you keep on marching, that's what's gonna happen. And for your information, maybe some of your church ministers were one of those victims that has been abusing the tea for too long. So after that, things were a lot more [00:54:30] silence. No more. There was no more magic no more. Um But then that then we had the Pacific Sexual Diversity Network Human Rights conference. Then this little particular church of 12 members came and stood with that banner, you know, get out of our country to doesn't need evil, homosexuality, all this and that. [00:55:00] But then afterwards, we the conference went well, complete it with a great outcome. And, uh, it just made us more louder than them, you know, Um, but, uh, thanks. There's a lot more work to do. Um, I don't know how my life is going to be when I get back. Um uh, since [00:55:30] there's a lot that has been publicly published And, um, but, um, maybe this has made me a stronger person. Um, and I thank God every day that I am what I am today with that note. Thank you very much for your attention. She? [00:56:00] Yes. Well, um, before we finish, um, finish with a song that has been with me for the, um, in my whole entire life. And I think this is more like the PSGN song that they always request for me to sing everywhere we go. But, um, it's, um, by Josh Groban. Um uh, you [00:56:30] raise me up and it the the lyrics of this song means a lot for the life that we've gone through. I'd like to dedicate this to all of you and those of you have lost with all your friends and families that you lost And, uh um and remembering those who are suffering from this issue [00:57:00] Yeah, When I am done and oh, my soul So we me one terrible car and my heart the And I am still And wait here in [00:57:30] the S until you come and stay a while with me Know you raise me up so I can stand on my mountain And you raise me up to walk on Store me See you were I am strong [00:58:00] When I the show You raise me to more than I can be right [00:58:30] You raise me Oh, so I can stand on mountains You raise me up [00:59:00] to walk and store me See high hetro When all you'll show you Raise me here to more than I can mhm you raise me [00:59:30] Oh, so I can stand the mountain Raise me up up to a Conor See P strong and come on You show me as you raise me too More than I can be. [01:00:00] You raise me here. Oh, so I can stand on mountains You raise me up, come to a stormy see I am When I am home you'll show me you raise me [01:00:30] to mhm You raise me up Mhm Two more that I can Yeah, [01:01:00] yeah. And with that note Malo alto, we are valuable and may God bless you.

IRN: 1050
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ATL REF: OHDL-004426
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089720
TITLE: Dont Leave Out the I - Proud 2016
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Denise Steers; Eliana Rubashkyn; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Tommy Hamilton
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1950s; 2010s; Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS); Aotearoa New Zealand; Asia Pacific Outgames; Auckland; Chicago; Denise Steers; Eliana Rubashkyn; Human Rights Commission; Hypospadias; India; International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association (ILGA); Intersex Trust Aotearoa New Zealand (ITANZ); John Money; Malta; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Margaret Sparrow; Pacific; Proud 2016 (Wellington); Rawa Karetai; Renato Sabbadini; Salvation Army; Tabby Besley; Tommy Hamilton; United States of America; University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine; Wellington; XY; adoption; allies; ambiguous genitalia; awhi; badges; binary; bodily autonomy; body diversity; button; church; cisgender; civil defence; conference; convention refugee; counselling; crystals; discrimination; diversity education; dysphoria; education; environment; fertility treatment; gender; gender binary; gender dysphoria; gender fluid; gender identity; healing; heterosexual; human rights; identity; identity documents; infertility; informed consent; intersex; intersex conditions; invisibility; isolation; legacy; media; medicalisation; non-binary; normal; normalisation surgery; pain; parents; pathologisation; plastic surgery; queer; rainbow within a rainbow; reclaim; refugee; self determination; sexology; surgery; taonga; tattoo; tokenism; torture; trans; transexual; transgender; transition; transvestism; visibility; yellow; youth
DATE: 11 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine, Mein Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the workshop Don't Leave Out the I: Intersex issues in New Zealand, Australia and the Pacific.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: This is a a little pouch that I carry around with me and my travels. So the first one is, um, a heart And I was talking about it yesterday. So when I first started doing my work and trying to work out who I was as an intersex person, I was already 40 finally I didn't know what being an intersex person really meant. I I'd been [00:00:30] loaned by my doctor AAA book out in the medical library here or she had stolen. And I'm not quite sure how that went, um, about intersex, which is a very strange way of finding out who you are in the world, because it was a highly pathologize, medicalized text. But for me, it was very exciting because for the first time, I realised that there were other people like me in the world and I had just started doing my what would become my healing work. [00:01:00] And there was this notion of loving yourself, which in those days it's a bit hard to know, but I was a very tough person. Um and I thought it was a load of horseshit, but all sensible people were saying it was important so I thought, OK, I'll try and learn about what this self love is. And it's Christopher here. No. So Christopher, who is here, ran AAA crystal shop and I saw this, um, heart. It was unusual. It stood out because it was unusual. [00:01:30] And I've since found out it's rotated quartz, and it has tiny flakes of titanium in it. So I think it was the right heart for me to to pick little path that can go around is with the talking this little yellow shell. Um I. I thought about it this morning out of the Pacific. It's not a New Zealand shell, but it's yellow because yellow is the colour that, um, some of us have claimed for being under sex. So when [00:02:00] I was growing up in the fifties, if the child was a boy, then anti knitter blue things. And if the child was female, anti knitted pink things, if you didn't know and it wasn't a nice bright yellow like this, it was a lemon colour, Um, for the child that you didn't know. So under six people around the world have been claiming the yellow colour and you'll notice on the front page of your book that we have what is becoming [00:02:30] the recognised as the intersex flag and then in many cultures around the world. And we were talking about this this morning that, um, realities are ancient and known, and intersex has been known in traditional cultures for not hundreds of years, thousands of years. And this is a, um, intersex figure from India, where, um, the intersex tradition is is very well known and recognised. [00:03:00] So just these are my little that travel around the world with me. And this remind me because sometimes being an intersex person, that's tough, and particularly when you're working in in these circles, um, at conferences like this, it's both wonderful, but also sometimes really hard because we're not that visible. So So let's talk about, um, intersex and the rainbow within [00:03:30] the rainbow because it's a good way of describing it. So intersex people represent a wide range of medical conditions. I used to say 30 but it's I think, well, over 35 if we got a final figure for diagnosis is lots. What? What drives the commonality, I guess, and and and still connects all of us is the way medicine [00:04:00] responds to people who have intercept conditions, and the way medicine still responds at the moment is in a very narrow, medicalized way. So it's a belief system that sees the world as a binary male and female. And there's a truth to that. Like most people on planet Earth do identify as male or female. But it's a model that doesn't recognise at all. The the things that we now [00:04:30] know about gender and fluidity and the things that are very visible and prominent at this conference and then underneath That is something much more complicated. And Denise will be talking to us, um, during this workshop about some of the research that she's doing because I still don't totally understand what goes on for doctors, even though I am myself a clinician. But my own thinking [00:05:00] is that it's a very disturbing situation for parents and for doctors. So, um, when it's visible at birth and not all the conditions are visible at birth, there's a disturbance and in medicine, and I'm a mental health professional. I put my hand up disturbance is not a good thing exactly. That makes everybody feel very anxious. And there's a desire to undisturbed. [00:05:30] And so in the 19 fifties, Um, and it's interesting when we think about the history so immediately post war. And there was a desire on planet or Earth to get back to normal. Whatever normal was, um, a group of doctors led by a New Zealand clinician, sexologist doctor John Money came up with this new theory, and and [00:06:00] I think to be fair, the more reading I do around John Money. His thinking got incorporated into the medical model, but it wasn't driven totally by him. I think that's what I would understand now. But his notion was that gender is something that comes from our environment so you could take any child and put them in a pink box. And so long as the parents [00:06:30] responded appropriately and congruently, that child would go off identifying as a female and vice versa. You could put the child in a blue box and they would grow up male. Now it just saying that is a truth. I'm sure everyone's going What? How could anyone believe that? But you know that thinking is still there as part of our current medical model, sort of weirdly unchallenged. [00:07:00] So the model went and and this is where I think it gets really interesting because John Money was also working with the transgender community, as I do as a, um, mental health professional. And there is something with in the transgender community around, um dysphoria. And it's real. And [00:07:30] when you see it, um, in somebody, it is a game very disturbing and somebody who experiences significant dysphoria. And I'm imagining that the people that John Money worked with would have been people who experienced significant dysphoria have that ameliorated with surgery and with hormones. So it doesn't surprise me that he had this idea that, um for [00:08:00] people to feel well and healthy. Um, you need bodies that look normal in terms of what the world sees normality as male and female. So I want to both validate that dysphoria is real because it is. And that is the experience for um, and of course, in those days when John Money was working, it was the transsexual community. Transgender was not a term being, in fact, very early. It was transvestite [00:08:30] was the term he would have used. So it's interesting because we have this this weaving, this interconnectedness with a trans narrative from the the early days, but not with any clarity that there had been a weaving. So part of his model was the child needed to be male or female something that I don't disagree with because we live in a binary world. And up until very recently, um, there [00:09:00] were only two options in terms of identity documents. She had to be male or female. But this idea of congruence comes into it as well. And it's interesting, because just after the Second World War, for the first time ever, we can do tiny, um, very delicate and detailed surgery. And we have the anaesthetics to go with it. And this had all come out of the fact that we had had thousands of men mostly [00:09:30] needing complicated plastic surgery as a result of the war. So all these things are are coming to a point, so the thinking was have to be male, have to be female. And then there were the limits also of the plastic surgery at the time. So the large majority of intersex Children during the fifties and sixties being assigned female because it was very difficult. [00:10:00] Then it's still difficult now to construct normal male genitalia. And this idea of parents not feeling comfortable with their Children if they didn't look normal. So the the idea of putting you into a box and as I said, it was easier to put people into the pit box than the blue box. And then the notion of early, [00:10:30] um, surgery, I'll tell you a little bit about my story, and then we're gonna break into groups and do some work. So I was born in 1953 and in New Zealand in 1953. The model that we were still using was the Victorian model. This model of doctor moneys hadn't arrived yet. So when I was born, um and I don't know what my intersex condition [00:11:00] is, if it ever existed as a diagnosis, it was either, um, eaten by rats, flooded or burned up, because that's what happened to intersex records. So I've been told, and alarmingly large numbers IE my records. My childhood records were destroyed deliberately so initially I signed mail, and when I did my research, um, with that [00:11:30] book that my doctor borrowed or stole from this library, there's a medical legal section in it, which was wonderful for me to find, because the Victorian thinking and what drove medical practise completely different was that it was considered inappropriate to deny the rights and privileges of being male to anyone who was possibly male. OK, so because I had either a very, um, [00:12:00] small Penis or a very large plater, that this was a possible expression of masculinity. So of course I was going to be a guy, which meant I would have inherited the family farm. And I would have grown up to be an all black and it's really, really interesting. But the model was about to change and would change radically in that first year of my life. So by the time I went back to a hospital for a laparotomy, which [00:12:30] was a very crude way that, um, they worked out what your sex was in those days and and they had to delay it because it was, um I presume I got a massive operation and high risk, so it was delayed until I was one. So I had a Laroy. They literally cut me open, had a look inside and found a uterus. So in a 24 hour period. I went from being a little boy to being a little girl. I mean, it would have been a recovery period. But I still [00:13:00] think of my parents going up to Auckland with their son, a child who was called Bruce and then coming back with a child called Margaret. Female. Um, my parents never had any support to do that. I mean, as I look now, there was a period of time I went through. I was so angry at them, and not probably very nice to be around, but I think now they actually did a brilliant job with the information that they had. Um, so [00:13:30] that's my story and my narrative. I started doing this work, this public work when I first met Margaret and the extraordinary team that was then at Wellington Sexual Health, which in that era was part of the Wellington Hospital. Um, unit was in an old building down on Adelaide Road. I had been [00:14:00] the manager of regional civil defence, so I was very comfortable and confident in in a media sense, I'd had lots of training. My original training was as an educator. People had no idea the mess that I was behind the screen that I put to the world. But what I worked out really quickly was that the I couldn't change anything about my past. Um, that was not possible. And I realised the thing that had done the most [00:14:30] damage to me wasn't the surgery. That though that's horrible. And I will live with that for the rest of my life. What had done terrible damage to me and to my family was this lying and the secrets, Um, that had just not impacted profoundly on me. It it affected my siblings, and it affected that community that I grew up in. And it affected my relationship with my extended family. And I thought, Well, that's something that I can change [00:15:00] now What I've learned in my, um, extraordinary journeying around the world because I've met lots and lots of people is that, as indeed has been said the intersex community as a rainbow within itself. So the truth is, as adults, most intersex people see themselves as suspended so they would identify the majority as male or female. And within that, just like the rest of the population, the overwhelming statistic [00:15:30] is people would see themselves as heterosexual. So here I am, a bearded, gender nonconforming queer identified, um, intersex person, you know, and I didn't know how it would fit in in that wider, um, larger intersex community. And it wasn't until four years ago when I was invited to a conference [00:16:00] in America where the overwhelming people in the audience were sis and heterosexual. So most of the couples that were there were married, and they had many of them had their Children there. And so I went into that room very nervous. I felt like an outsider and felt a little bit like a fraud. And I certainly felt that that would not be a safe place for me to go [00:16:30] until we started talking and sharing stories. And then I'm reminded of what Renato was talking about. It seems like days ago, but it's actually what only a day and a half ago at our opening, when he was talking about difference and creating, you know, a planet where all of us have a place and and can be safe. So I I [00:17:00] went in and and gave my speech about being non-binary to people that look to me extraordinarily straight and you know, a world that is not mine and that I wouldn't be comfortable there. And as I'm talking, I'm looking up and this waterfalls in the room and nearly everybody's crying. The guys are crying, the women are crying, and I started to realise that the commonality of a narrative of pain, of [00:17:30] being invisible and not having a place so many of the women in that room I would come to know, um, have a condition called a IS. And where, um, people have, you know, and we don't have the language, I will. I will get very clumsy because our language is clumping, so they have male bodies, but their body doesn't respond to the male hormones, so they grow up looking like women and identifying [00:18:00] as women. And the traditional response to this is because doctors are very disturbed by someone who looks like a female who has testes coming up with the idea that, um, they might turn into cancer. So we have to take them out. It's like, yeah, so the breast. So we'll cut all those off and test these off, and, um, testicles get cancer. So we'll cut all those off as well. No, it's really interesting. We just do it with intersex people and these extraordinary women, these straight blonde women from [00:18:30] Middle America. Most of them had tattoos, and it's a reclaim movement in America. And many of these women have beautiful orchids tattooed on their bodies to symbolically mark where they testes have been taken, and the woman who because often these conditions are genetic so they've passed on. So their young Children are now growing up in a very different environment, where the, um, mums and dads [00:19:00] are saying to doctors, No, we're not taking the testes out of our Children because these produce hormones that the bodies need. Yeah, we'll monitor um, and we and we'll check. And if it looks like there's a cancer developing, then we'll deal with that. But we're knowing now that that's not necessary. So I want to honour that our intersex community and we probably pretty well represent that diversity sitting here in the room, that amazing rainbow within the intersex community. [00:19:30] And it's really important for our allies to be aware of that that within this community there is a lot of diversity, and within this community of intersex people. There are just people now. I've just, um I can't believe this. Seven weeks ago, I was in America. It's only seven weeks ago. Um, I was at a conference in Chicago and the largest GO BT I conference in the world 4. 5 [00:20:00] 1000 delegates. And we had, um, quite a large gathering of intersex youth, and they were in charge of the the material for the conference. So they produced these buttons and the button say, LGBT Q the I is in green and a so it says the I is for intersex, not invisible. So they were there at the conference, outrageously and very proudly, um, visible intersex. And people were asking [00:20:30] the A what does the A stand for and the under six youth were really, really clear. The A stands for allies because most and six people live in communities where there is not a community. They live by themselves. And they all knew these young people the importance of allies. So it's wonderful that we're sitting here with with you because our and our allies will be in the queer community. Our allies will be so this, um, [00:21:00] service last night where I where I was telling you, you know, to be in a church with so much warmth from the Salvation Army community. To me, when I was growing up, the Salvation Army was the enemy, and it was a community that was doing a great deal of harm to to my family. So so again, Um, and in this room with this all these people and I'm being hugged by these people in uniform and that was that was beautiful. So I, I guess what intersex [00:21:30] is doing in the movement it It's the kind of piece that moves around making sure that no one's getting too comfortable because there's there's a narrative and a truth here. That's that's a bit like Mercury, you know, don't don't put anything into a box. And I think it invites us into that. That world that Reinado was talking about when he was talking, you know so beautifully on, um, Wednesday night, as it's not the world that we're living in at the moment, [00:22:00] it it's absolutely not, Um, yeah, and I am on that boat. I'd love to be, um, still alive when we get to it, but maybe That means I have to come back for another life because I think Reinado is right. We we are on that journey. But it might take us a while to get there. So I think I've done enough talking. What what I would like us to do now is just, um, break into small groups and we were talking about, you know, what does our community [00:22:30] need to do to recognise that the eye? So this afternoon there's going to be an opportunity for us to talk in the plenary, but probably not very long. And depending on who's controlling the mic, whether we get, you know, thinking about be like standing there fiercely going, this is not fair. You didn't control the time, and I've only got two minutes and everybody else got lots, so we'll try and make sure it's fairly apportioned. But I would like a voice to come forward for I'm [00:23:00] not going to speak from somebody else who is into sex, and we can help narrate that. Like what? What is the the key points that we need to say back to everybody, to make sure that everyone knows that the eye is here and maybe something for the people in the to to be reminded so we can start that process. Just, um, talking in small groups. Um, if you've got questions, certainly. [00:23:30] Um, are you guys happy to answer questions as well? Yeah. So we can be sort of a bit like a panel to talk to, Um, how long? Much longer have we got? Further? Half an hour. Yeah. Do the talking for 10 minutes, and then we'll think of what extraordinary, astounding things we're going to say this afternoon. And as as as I guess, as you feedback from your talking and your groups, um, [00:24:00] if there's questions within the feedback, then these guys will answer. Yeah, great. So if you have a question for one of some for an intersex person in the room, then they feel comfortable answering it. So I'm gonna suggest that intersex crew make their own group, and then the rest of you have your groups, and I'm making some assumptions here because there might be an intersex person here that is not out yet. And that's absolutely fine. You don't have to, but if you want to come out, then this would be a safe place to do it [00:24:30] Now I've got a tactic Money. I hope you agree with me. I've just I'm gonna write everything that people say on the board. Um, so if you've made notes at the end, can you Can you give me those notes for yeah, so I can photograph them? All right. So we'll just come around and Tony's right. We don't have lots of time, so let's go quickly. Just we've got one blanket [00:25:00] statement. We came up with a whole bunch of things, but, um, the big one, we decided was, uh, diversity education around intersex to the medical, uh, teaching establishments. Um, we identified many other contexts where, um, diversity education would be useful. But we feel that specifically to help intersex people and parents of intersex Children, the medical fraternity [00:25:30] are the strongest target that we can locate. The media was probably our second one, but, um, and we, we I I'll give the rest of our diversity education and medical settings, and the second is educating the media. Oh, can I say one for our group? Um, we talked about how awesome it has been that this conference has, um, had intersex voices and intersex workshops [00:26:00] and that visibility and a lot of people that this time they've had so much exposure to that. Um, and that's largely because money has been one of the main organisers of the conference. Um, and that that's incredible. But it's not OK for this to be a one off special occasion that needs to be in all of the conferences and stuff that is organised. So even when intersex people are in the organising committees or, you know, um, at the initial table that people still need to be raising them, it needs to be to be visible and they need to be invited. [00:26:30] So don't forget that I were you specifically meaning within the LGBT community. No, I was gonna turn it into I was saying the acronym and then I thought I'd make it rainbow to make it culturally, and I know that it's more letters after that. But, um, other letters are already in many ways how they tell me Rainbow with a It's a [00:27:00] exclusive term. It's inclusive. It's not meant to exclude gender, Alex. And just to recognise that, like even if there are intersex people present that they might not want to be the one The same thing as what Bella has been saying to us. So can we turn that into a statement? So I think [00:27:30] that something else we discussed in our group was, um how do we safely be allies when we're not speaking for something that we don't necessarily know enough about? I think we do it by not, um, standing there being the like the same for any issue. II. I am not an intersex person, but this is an important issue, and I'm making a statement. [00:28:00] Yeah, yeah, it's a full stop. That's good, I think regarding this I mean, allies of intersex can be part of the rainbow or not part of the rainbow community. And And I did so and I want to make something clear. It's that with all these issues of gender and sexual orientation, as in, uh, sorry gender expression, gender identity. And now the new [00:28:30] part of this being discussed that is sex characteristics like us. We are just Even though we are a very little part of the community, we represent something that can bring out understanding to the to the entire, Like I say to the world that there is not only two colours that being, you know, understood like there is a and like the, uh, by by being visible, they can really understand how [00:29:00] diverse is is is is actually in nature and how colourful is the existence. So we might not be so many. But we can be be civilising the beauty of nature and how everyone can be accepted so we can actually make LGBTI more like, I don't know if you get my point. It's what was talking about that we actually, our gift the LGBTI community brings to the world [00:29:30] is we can all be stunning and fabulous and stop putting us in boxes like make this space to bring out the beauty. And I'd like to say I had a problem this morning because I didn't feel personally, uh, visible because, um, I don't know. I don't identify as Trans as such, but I haven't been, like, had experience with being male or female. And my experience has just always been female. And, [00:30:00] um so a lot of people are talking about, you know, trans like I transitioned, but I've never had a transitioning moment. You know, I I've always identified as female right from the day I was born. For now and the fact that we see because if you're ambiguous genitalia, you've had to face the fact because it's obvious you change from male to female or your gender queer. And then, you [00:30:30] know, you could tell outwardly that that you're either male or female. But most people look at me and they just all they see is a female. And then they're very when I've ever told people that I'm an XY woman. They're very, quite shocked and quite surprised because I don't up here like, you know, like a transition or transsexual or whatever. So today I didn't feel like I. I felt a little bit lonely like you. Even when you talked about being trans and intersex, I felt a little bit lonely and isolated, and it sort [00:31:00] of took me back to all those years when I was struggling or they were saying that you know, they had a very difficult adolescence because I never really had a pubis as female, a gender asexuals person, right to the age of 18. And um, yeah, I just wanted to say that there's a lot of like you say rainbow within a rainbow of intersex people. So it's a really important point for the queer community. If you are going to bring the eye in. [00:31:30] That actually means bringing people into discourse of smallness as well, really small part of the community. I think a bit of a problem because actually, it's not necessarily that it's a small part of the community. It's that it's an invisible part of the community, and 1. 7% of the population is a lot. My experience so far I've not met anyone like myself. That's been cisgender. But even my friend Lou in Auckland has had been male [00:32:00] initially and female. But I have not met anyone. That's been cisgender, um iden and presents as female and has a strong female. Um, yeah, so I just sort of a little bit lonely because I know there's people out there on the right. So is there anything else coming around the corner in that group? [00:32:30] Come around the corner, your body at eight. Mike, Margaret. Denise, looks like you were gonna be deceiving quite a few, so I just I would read them out if you would have been covered there. As my friend says, one lobbying global change, informed consent, human rights, restrictive surgery, [00:33:00] that sort of thing to ask the intersects what legislation is appropriate. That's been a theme of the conference. And is it, um, looking towards the model was I think it was either that or sorry. And the top we got medical fraternity. Um, could you change it to health care professionals? Because it needs to be everything that nurses, [00:33:30] doctors, physiotherapists, occupational admin staff. Absolutely. Yeah. So, uh, no tagging onto transgender own voice. Got my own voice. Yeah, I guess what we're meeting in particular about this, um often, things get merged and and and and can cause, and particularly for what you were saying before about not having [00:34:00] your own voice and and showing, I guess that diversity within intersect that along being visible. Um, that's actually Yeah, that's one of our other points as well. That's not to say of someone that transgender that's not also appropriate to have a voice. But I guess often in for documents and think there'll be one like one word of insect [00:34:30] and a document that's largely focused on transgender and and and I think it's important to have a separate similar to like when they talk about it. Being gay, bisexual, actually talk about. So can I say they are defining differences between trans and intersex experiences so that we know that that's associated with narratives as well as, um, you know, stuff you were talking about ideally around gender expression, the social as well as medical [00:35:00] infrastructure and our lives and environment. Is that clear? Because I find out that many, almost everyone in the LGBTI community don't really understand how intersex is overlaying with the with the other aspects of of the, you know, the community or out of the community. And that's why we are on a not understood and and you know, a lot of things for them become like like, very like [00:35:30] glory. And they try to understand who you are. Like, um, yesterday somebody was telling me, Choose one to be intersex, but don't choose one. And then I was a bit upset with that. I was I was upset. It was I mean, I have my self determination to understand. Yes, I think there's something there, [00:36:00] Tom, and I think that's for every single person in the room. No one has the right to tell us who we are. We are ourselves. Self determination is very important. So it's, uh yeah, I mean, what defines my identity in a visible way is my intersexuality, because becoming a refugee and all this stuff and the dramatic change that I I had in my face, in my body, in my hands and everything it was because of my intersex condition. But the actual thing, [00:36:30] the actual transition, is what could create all of my experience as a person. And all of my experience as a person is around the transition issue and is, I feel so alone, so lonely that I don't feel I feel like I'm in a very uncomfortable place of not belonging, not fully belonging to one side or not fully belonging to the other just by being in between. And that's what I just want to point out. And also I. I felt very loud and isolated [00:37:00] because she came out a few months ago, a few months ago, and, um, it's just like the medical model told me that you know, that was so rare and because I had a bad one you know, a couple of traumatic experiences. Um, So what I'm saying is it's it's I've had years of suppressing it and and feeling quite alone. And I've never had counselling and and the other issue I talked about was infertility and and and [00:37:30] the human rights issue for intersex people be able to adopt. But that is a really to my heart, because I've always wanted a family because we are running out of time. The group came up with a great list. So is there anything more over here? Yes. So we got We have 0. 4. We have nine points. Um, basic, uh, level inclusion of eyes and also subgroup recognition of eyes within the educating people and getting inclusion into [00:38:00] departmental dialogue, medicine and education. 0. 6 was existence notification, non binary gender. So, basically notifying the people that exist, so seven is education and medicine. So I'll say that again. Education of medicine. No, patho. Uh, and it is outreach of insects for support and networking. How [00:38:30] is this done? We didn't really have an answer for that one, but I guess sort of for people out there and to be able to make contact or read information or find people are not left feeling like they the only one and the nine is is pretty much similar to what one was that there was visibility creating peer network. That's pretty much similar to six. Thank you. And that's it. [00:39:00] We've got a few minutes. Um, some of these are the I'll just go through. Um, so needs to know that we're a rain. Um, but some intersex people feel invisible because there's this gender and heterosexual, and they don't fit into What is it? I don't fit in the trans one. and then, um that, [00:39:30] but also that some people are trans and intersex, and I think also that some intersex people are queer and some intersex people are by and like So it's like we're a rainbow within the rainbow. But we're also across the rainbow and outside the rainbow. I think the intersex people should be the pot of gold. [00:40:00] Exactly. Um the yellow and I think this comes into that. Nobody can tell us who we are is that we don't need to justify ourselves. That can be a separate statement. I don't need to explain to justify or explain Um, yeah. And we mentioned briefly that so about fertility and reproductive issues that [00:40:30] the most important health issue for you to have a human right, We need equal access to that stuff. Um, and access to adoption counselling by human right issue. Um, um C gender. Um, CIS gender, non intersex. Non people in this country have fully right to have fertility treatments, but [00:41:00] we intersex people have not. And that's the discrimination happening there. Um, should I wait for a second? Um, and then how to address medical violence that, um, under the UN that it's been recognised that it's like normalisation surgery is torture, Um, and that we need to kind of push in New Zealand for that to be [00:41:30] the legislative change around that, Um, um, OK, stop it. And I think we also separate from that the fact that it's not just stuff that happens at birth and in childhood that acknowledging that for some intersex people they don't find out until adulthood and that, um, the health services also need to, um, be better at treating intersex adults who, um including, like people who are intersex [00:42:00] throughout their lives and but also people who find out about the Yeah, I like to guess about informed consent because I was almost 18 and it wasn't discussed with me. Um, I think of one consent I'd like to have a say in my own body. What happens to my body was taken out of my hands and my body, my choice or my right to decide [00:42:30] that self determination, which is a social construct and body autonomy, which is the important consumer. So is there any more? So with five minutes to go, what what I'm going to suggest is that the, um visible under people take this to the plenary this afternoon. But but but with the group's permission, [00:43:00] um, it's been alluded to several times during the conference that we are we the intersex trust at the moment is in a conversation with the Human Rights Commission. And this is a follow up from the transgender inquiry. Would it be the consensus of this group and particularly my intersex allies that we table this total document to the, um also to the intersex round table? Everyone agrees with that. [00:43:30] We are not sick on there as well because it's seen as a disorder or condition. That's quite often we are, We are not. And there's one other thing as well. Um, in terms of the surgery, because the focus is around normalisation surgery. But hypospadia is sometimes an intersex [00:44:00] condition that's specifically stated because people will or medical professionals will not recognise that as intersex, hyper hyper as intersex condition and a lot of medical people. We just need to talk to people who have hyperphagia and they will say, Yes, I'm in right So I just want to in the five minutes that are left mark this historic event. As far as I know, this is New Zealand's first intersex workshop. [00:44:30] It's not the first in our part of the world. My colleagues in Australia are ahead of us. They've had these kind of, um workshops in Australia. But this is our first for New Zealand. We are so much more to say and I have a sense that there's a lot more to say and one of the things I've been saying during um, this conference [00:45:00] and this week when when and I sat down because we were so disappointed and devastated that Auckland wasn't going to go ahead. Um, Tommy and I had been in a conference in Australia, we knew that the need to have a conference here. There's, um, the the team that's run this conference. They're shattered at the moment and the idea of doing another conference just fills everyone with horror. But it's interesting because people are already saying We need to do this So there's [00:45:30] an idea that we, um have a There'll be a small legacy, I hope from this conference, but a but a bi annual conference and we'll move it around New Zealand. So, um and then I think within that we need subset conferences. So obviously the intersex community needs to be able to meet. I think the trans community needs There's other communities that that need so II, I think just supporting somehow the idea of getting together, how important [00:46:00] it is and also giving some context to imagining that this is the first part of this conversation that has ever occurred here. So in that context, and we've done this much work in that time frame. So, um also consider that you know, there's lots more work to do, so you know, if there's any sense of frustration from your feelings of loneliness or isolation in this. Remember that. [00:46:30] Hold that with the knowledge that we respect you for being here, especially those members of the MC community who are out today. We highly respect you and are grateful for your visibility today. So thank you for being here, including, of course, but, um, I just want to say I know how hard that can be and, um and you know it. It wouldn't This wouldn't happen without you all pay out. So thank you very much for the trust of so just before [00:47:00] we go Sorry. I just like to thank you. Time and money. You both have a great help myself. And, um, if it hadn't been for you, you a bit of a lifeline and a great resource for us to, um, gain help from here. So thank you. And I also want to thank you. And and that is your mind. Told me that you were the first person II I came [00:47:30] out with. You remember that? Because I was not openly, openly intersex Because I feel difficult to explain. How could I be? And I couldn't be more anymore. And I need help because I have issues with my health, serious issues with my health. And it's because of my intersex condition. And I now, when I need support and when I need someone with with with me close by me and more like that. But what I want to do just in closing, [00:48:00] is all of you. Everyone here has been involved in a historically remarkable voice. So I just want people to go around with their eyes and just go around the whole whole group. Do do it yourself. Just making eye contact. You know, this remarkable piece of history. And Margaret, Margaret Spar. You know, you're part of this. You're part of what has been created today. And I thank you so much. You know, we have a doctor here sitting with us, um, supporting and and offering us huge. [00:48:30] Denise, we didn't give you any chance to talk today. I'm so sorry. We No worries. Yeah, well, I think he deserves a clap. And who was responsible for this workshop deserves a clap.

IRN: 1028
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/youth_and_womens_hui_report_backs_proud_2016.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004425
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089719
TITLE: Youth and Womens hui report backs - Proud 2016
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VOICES: Alex Ker; Bella Simpson; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Rawa Karetai; Rosslyn Noonan; Sara Fraser
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Adoption Act (1955); Alex Ker; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bella Simpson; Day of Silence; Evolve Wellington Youth Service; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Human Rights Commission; International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association (ILGA); Intersex Trust Aotearoa New Zealand (ITANZ); Jackie Blue; Jan Logie; Joy Liddicoat; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Mari North; Māori; Parliament buildings; Proud 2016 (Wellington); Proud to Play NZ (2016); Rawa Karetai; Richard Tankersley; Rosslyn Noonan; Sara Fraser; University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine; Wellington; abuse; action plan; activism; adoption; aromantic; asexual; assimilation; attitude; biphobia; bisexual; bisexual erasure; cis female; cis male; democracy; disability; diversity; diversity training; education; employment; flags; gay; gender dysphoria; gender identity; health care; homelessness; homophobia; homosexual law reform; housing; hui; human rights; identity; immigration; indigenous rights; intersex; invisibility; kaupapa; leaving home; media; mental health; misgendering; non-binary; passing; police; politics; queer straight alliance (QSA); racism; refugee; religion; representation; repression; research; role model; safety; school; school counselor; school uniform; sex education; sexual orientation; support; survey; teacher; trans; transgender; transition; vote; youth; youth work
DATE: 10 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine, Mein Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Report backs from the youth pre-conference hui and the women's pre-conference hui, followed by Ros Noonan - patron of Intersex Trust of Aotearoa New Zealand (ITANZ), former Chief Commissioner for the New Zealand Human Rights Commission and 'conference weaver'. The youth hui was held at Evolve Wellington Youth Service on 7 February 2016.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: It's my great privilege to introduce Bella Simpson and Alex Kerr, um, to talk about our youth pre conference that we had. Um, Alex and Bella have been working on a great survey. Uh, and, uh, they'll be talking about that soon. Um, but I've actually had a look at some of the data. The data is really moving in the sense that actually, there's still a lot to do for our community [00:00:30] in particular for our youth and even saying that there's so many positive comments about the survey and saying, thank you just for asking the question. It's really empowering. And, um, some of our youth who can't be here today we really would have loved to for them to be here. But we did have the, um, the pre youth conference to make sure that we could engage with them and as well as our survey. So I hand over to Bell Simpson. [00:01:00] Um, Alex. Hi, everyone. Um, my name is Bella, and my name's Alex. Hello. Um, so over the last couple of months we've done we did a workshop in Wellington. Um, we had about a handful of a lot of young people around 20 or so in Wellington that evolve. Um, health service. Yeah. And then, um, we [00:01:30] took the same workshop to Auckland. We were up there. There was a conference with the crowd to play. And so we did the survey again up there with a group of about 10 young people. And then we had a survey online for the last couple of months. So, um, our aim was to bring youth issues to light and to present them. So then everyone understands that we may be celebrating something like 30 years of homosexual law reform, but actually, there's still a hell of a lot of work to do, and a lot of young people are not [00:02:00] feeling safe. So I think we'd like to acknowledge that this is a small percentage of our community youth. So we're not claiming that we're representing all the voices, but I would say that it's safe to say that if we did ask every single person, um, in the country would would get similar results. So I think this is a general, um, representation of what needs to be done in the biggest issues face, but definitely not everyone. So we might be missing out on stuff, but I think [00:02:30] we've the youth have covered a lot in the answers. Um, so the questions that we've got, uh um do you feel your identity is being represented in our community? So, within, like, the LGBTI Q a plus community. Um, do you know of any support that may be able to help you if you aren't safe at home? Do you feel safe at home? Do you find adequate healthcare easily accessible? Uh, what challenges do you face in school? Do you feel accepted in society, [00:03:00] school or home? Does your school do anything? Well, because we have to ask. Like, you know, we all know the answers. What are important? Issues that aren't being discussed? Um, how do you feel? Our community is represented in the media. And do you have support? So as you can see, like the range of questions, It was a broad range. We weren't just sticking to something as simple as school. Are you OK? Ok, um, we [00:03:30] were wanting to see the wider issues. Um, OK, these work, this one Does this one work? OK, so, um, as you can see, the questions are very broad. Um And so what we'll do is to sort of go over the questions. Some of the most common answers, a couple of questions. We managed to put the information into pie charts, which Alex will explain. Um, [00:04:00] so, yeah. First question. Do you feel your identity is being represented within our community? Bisexuality isn't well recognised in society. So I don't feel entirely recognised. These are just sort of a selection of, um the responses in their own words. Um, intersex with question marks, Bisexual exposure by queer people is yuk no, bisexual people hardly get mentioned by queer people. Literally. No representation of non-binary people in media or society. Um, gay is the face [00:04:30] of the community. The rest feels erased. Unrecognised or invalid? Um, yes, as a gay guy, which I think is important to mention, um, that the people who are saying that they feel great and they've got support assists. And they usually were, like, just gay or a lesbian. So that was something we thought was quite interesting. Yeah. Biphobia is very prevalent in the answers and also the Asia of minorities within our community, specifically [00:05:00] non binary identified people. Um, there's very few good role models within our community. Um, you never see any of the other LGBT a Q a plus flags except the rainbow. Which is why we've worked hard to make sure we have other flags here. Um, no. Um, as a romantic and non-binary asexuality and a romanticism are very rarely touched on, and trans people are really represented. Media sucks. Yes, but [00:05:30] I do feel like trans representation is overly focused on fully transitioned passing individuals who fit a narrow beauty standard. Do you know of any support that may be able to help you if you aren't safe at home? School counsellors aren't very good with protecting students confidentiality from parents. Nothing that can help immediately. Only thing that comes to mind is police, but they aren't adequately trained to help. Um, while support exists, it's desperately underfunded. [00:06:00] Staff and resources are extremely limited. Uh, not within reach. What if I'm unsafe outside office hours? It can be hard to go out on your own. So, like leaving home. Um, do you want to talk the next time? Yeah, sure. So do you feel safe at home? Conservative families? I'm safer away from home. Usually no parents need education to support queer Children? No, not at my parents' house. I can't be out to them. Gender [00:06:30] and sexuality are the taboo subjects at my home. Safety is not merely physical but also depends on living in an environment of respect. My grandparents tried to understand My family still thinks being trans is a joke, so I don't feel safe to come out. Do you find adequate healthcare? Sorry. Do you find adequate? Adequate healthcare? Easily accessible Takes too long to get support. Especially hormones. No wait for Endo was over three months [00:07:00] and for suicide. Suicide, vulnerable people. That is unacceptable. Health professionals need better training and they asked, Are you sexually active and assumed? I need contraception. Mental health care is problematic. Due to the long wait times, I had to wait several months for anxiety treatment, which wasn't fun. No, there is one month wait to see a qualified doctor for gender dysphoria at Evolve Youth Centre. There are long waits that can lead people to never seeking help out of hopelessness. So I think the biggest thing that came out of that was [00:07:30] the fact that the waiting times, um and people not health professionals not taking doctors seriously. So health professionals not taking us seriously and dismissing things that may be actually really detrimental to our mental and physical well being. Um, so supply chart here is to sort of put it, Yeah, 43 responses out of all the responses were negative. So it's a majority, and some of them were mixed. Um, yeah, [00:08:00] it's just not good enough. Really. Um, what challenges do you face in school? There's a lack of education about queer stuff. Sex Ed is very one sided. Disrespectful. How queer people are used as examples for straight kids to learn from teachers treating you differently because of your identity. Transphobia not always from students but teachers and adults as well. Everyone is ignorant to information concerning LGBTI Q a plus teachers outing students and misgender [00:08:30] teachers expressing personal views in class. They phobic people asking ignorant offensive questions. So I think the one thing that we can see from this is, um, that it isn't just coming from students. It's teachers as well and like counsellors. So then there's gender, binary bathrooms, gender, new uniforms and not being allowed to participate because of mental health. So we have another pie chart here. [00:09:00] Um, the two biggest responses were surrounding lack of health and education and also the attitudes. Not only, um, you know, homophobia biphobia transphobia from, um, their peers, but actually quite an equal proportion. Um, to do with teachers and counsellors. Yeah. Um, do you feel accepted in society, school or home? Open minded people make things easier. I feel accepted at home and with my friends. [00:09:30] No aspect of society makes me feel accepted. Not in society or at home. School is a large part of the reason I repressed my own identity. I feel like it's OK, but I feel like my future career might suffer if I truly be myself. Is my CIS gender cover? Yes. But as a trans woman, No. I fear that I will never meet societal standards of passing. So I couldn't feel comfortable going out in public Now the chart just pointing out that most of the responses [00:10:00] were either mixed or negative. Um, I think also at this, um, most of the responses showed that people felt safe, sort of within the smallest aspect of so maybe, for example, at home. And they felt sometimes maybe safe at school, but they didn't feel accepted in society. So it sort of went from small feeling, you know, accepted by the people that knew them to people that maybe didn't know them, but feeling not accepted or safe. [00:10:30] Uh, does your school do anything well, because it's important to give schools an opportunity to act like they're doing well. There were things that people that schools were doing well, it's not all negative. We have a large and active QS. A. So that's student led, uh, teachers that kept personal views to themselves and not a religious school, no uniform. And students are generally accepting and willing to learn. Our school was involved in a day of silence. So if we look at, like, [00:11:00] how many things people were doing well compared to the pages of things when schools weren't doing things well, I think, um also that Q SAS and support groups within schools. So, queer straight alliances, um, they were, um, lots of people mentioned that they were really helpful. Um, and I mean, those are student lead most of the time. In fact, probably all of the time. It's, um yeah, student lead groups. So it says something about the student body, but maybe not [00:11:30] about the staff. Um what are important? Important issues that aren't being discussed? Uh, sexual health in the trans community Mental health the lack of adequate specialist trans care available in New Zealand funding of LGBT organisations, people and its effects assuming genders uh C white gay men dominating queer spaces, Pink washing How to keep safe when coming out doesn't go well intersex [00:12:00] issues Uh, queer community and eating disorders, sexual fluidity and trans women and men's prisons and support. Yeah. So I guess health and issues within our community were the two big things that came up. Um how do you feel? That community is represented in the media treating trends as a fetish. Allen a ra of trans identity by casting [00:12:30] sis actors deaths of trans people only treating trends as a disease. They kill her characters. Hypersexual queer woman always die. Not every Trans woman is like Caitlyn Jenner. Why are queer jokes acceptable on TV? Most characters are stereotypical and we are the people of colour and the pi. Is it all pretty much Um yeah. Do you have [00:13:00] support? Yes, my friends are all supportive. Yes, I do. I've surrounded myself with supportive and caring people. They help me to feel safe and secure within myself. Yes. Evolve. Yes. Most of the time. Yes. My friends and family are supportive. It took me a long time to find it. I'm lacking genuine mental support. Some queer groups feel exclusive. Yes, My close circle of friends are very supportive. So if we look at this, all the support is stuff that they have found [00:13:30] themselves. They don't have that support themselves when they first come out. So I thought that was something interesting. Um, and then any other points, Like the government junkie where people exist? Um, it feels like talking about biphobia gets treated like we're just making a fuss about nothing. And that was all the information that we've got. So as you can see, there's a lot of issues in our community. Um, [00:14:00] yeah. If you would like to read all the responses, we have about 40 pages of notes. Um, yeah, if anyone would like to read more, and then the time we've got about 10 minutes. If anyone's got any questions we thought we had put some time in. If you wanted any more information? Yes. I, um I actually work. I'm Trans and I work in mental health. And I'm probably the only trans person that works as a clinician [00:14:30] in Auckland Central. I work to the health board, and I was really interested to understand a bit better about the needs that you were saying that the healthcare professionals don't understand our needs. Um, if you've got any ideas or information about the actual needs that healthcare professional don't understand, I think that, um, there's a lack of training. Um, a lot of the doctors and health professions have no idea what trains even means. [00:15:00] And the information that they go off to care for the patients is notes that were written, like 10 years ago from studies overseas. There's like a huge lack of understanding, and the young people are feeling like they're invalid because these professionals don't actually know how to help them. Yet they're supposed to know how to help them, and then when there is someone to help, it's like a six month waiting list. And that's pretty ridiculous, I think, because I mean, there are some fantastic people who do work in mental health or just health [00:15:30] professionals in general. Who, um, do know a lot about these issues. And I think what makes them so great is that they listen to us and they sort of they let us speak on our behalf and and maybe listen to what we exactly want or what's. You know what we feel we need other than, um telling us, you know, and and trying to get us to prove our identities or or things like that. So just helping us along the way rather than sort of being this gate [00:16:00] that we have to try to, you know, unlock. I mean, uh, with some positive news. I mean, there's a, um a recent, um Endeavour by the Auckland District Health Board was Time count man and Northland Health to improve trans services. Um and, um and they've signed off a couple of new role. So certainly in Auckland, they're investigating a new roadmap for improving services, which they're [00:16:30] hoping that if it works, they might be able to spread out to the whole country. I mean, I'm really hoping so. So cost of the services, even within Auckland require they're all over the place. Basically and um and, um, and lots of the different departments have specialities, but there doesn't seem to be any speciality throughout the whole kind of trans health delivery sector, which doesn't really exist, actually, so hopefully it's going to improve. [00:17:00] And one of the other things is that certainly mental health workers in Auckland are being trained in diversity issues, which is really good. So certainly the people at my mental health centre are being skilled by great community members who are here today, which is really nice. So hopefully things are going to improve a little bit just in terms of that, just in terms of that, one of the issues that was shared by members of the Trans Group in Wellington was that the clinicians [00:17:30] and the health professional experts were usually great, but that sometimes reception staff, other nurses and others were misgender and were disrespectful that the training need is not just the the top of the pyramid. If you like, it's everybody in the system so that people, when they're in the waiting room aren't being called a mister where they are. In fact, um, you know and those type of issues, yes, that's true and certainly where we work. It's mandatory [00:18:00] training for absolutely everyone. So I mean, I think possibly the cleaners aren't getting it, which they probably should, but everyone else is getting it. So admin staff, everyone. So, yeah, that Alex and I thank you so much for for the work that went into that and for making sure that young people's horses are here. I really enjoyed it. Um, yes, I want to look at your report, and I also wonder if you'll be publishing it. Um, it's one of [00:18:30] our aims is to get some funding to broaden this, um nationwide to really, um, publish it basically and then start working with the right people to actually make an action plan. Because at the moment, it's all just words from a handful of young people who aren't feeling supported. So, um, if we can actually get something out of it, that would be really helpful. But the lack of funding in this community is drastic. And then when you talk about young people as well, it's even worse so [00:19:00] but yeah, it's a it's a I think it would be a valuable document. Hopefully. So if we can get anything to make it more official or just to to get broaden it, sophisticated it a little bit more. It would be great. Yeah. Hi. Um, thanks for that comment from Eli. It's good to hear that there's some places that are doing it well in Auckland and hopefully other places as well. Um, but some of the stories that were [00:19:30] told yesterday at the the, um, conference was that it often comes down to to the the clients to actually educate their their health professionals. And that's just really, really unprofessional. Um, we've had stories of people who who actually said, Oh, I've never done this, uh, met someone with this condition before [00:20:00] or yeah, just really bad comments. And so I'm wanting to know how can we pull our resources to actually, um, kind of make these good services more well known within our community? Well, um, a great question. And I think the other thing, too, is that this isn't specific [00:20:30] to trans issues. That's the key point of this is that this is a range of issues. And, um so when we say that we wanna, like, use this and, like, get the right resources to the right people. At the moment, there aren't actually a lot of resources. There isn't a lot of the help out there, So this is a start, and I'm sure that there's other starts all over the country. We're not the only ones that have tried to start, but, yeah, [00:21:00] it was scary. Um, I just wanted to break a subject about and takes identity being represented in the community. And, um, some of you know, I've only been out for a short period of time, and, um, when I've graced the subject, I've intersex people have no idea what intersects are. And even here in this community, um could come up to me and say, Wow, [00:21:30] I never knew that there was an ex woman, you know, you're the first person I've ever met. Um, and, um, I just find that there's a lack of education about intersex, and I know there's a wide variety of intersects. You know, there's about 30 different variations, but the general community and the people that I've mentioned it to, I had no idea. And then I had to start talking from the beginning as it becomes a long [00:22:00] process that actually about and text, but the trans community have a higher profile. Um, I find that Trans people know about Trans, but they don't seem to know about intersex and, um, the experience of being intersex. Um, because it's quite it's similarities. But there's quite a big difference differences between six and training, which I which we're finding iana and I are finding, um, we belong to the same community, [00:22:30] but there are differences here. But, um, that that's my main man and and something that I was pointing out yesterday in the meeting that we have is that there is some intersex people, that they are also trans or experience of life. And I love them. I'm a trans woman and I would know for being a trans woman. But I, I didn't came out with my intersex condition. Um, I. I have a condition called 46 [00:23:00] 65, 46 66 and and a lot of doctors that you say you are just the only one in New Zealand such a condition or and then it's like being aware that we intersex people represent 1% of the population of of you know, uh, and every single person every single intersex is a world of you know every person has, like she has a XY condition. She's a white woman. I have all this conditions are you know, we [00:23:30] we all have different conditions. But we all struggle from the same struggle that trans people are all gender identities, you know, because our our identity, our biological identity, might be a little bit affecting our social role that we respect society. So I think, very crucial to teach. I mean, I know we represent the smallest of the standard part of the community. But by learning that our existing order, like, you know, people understanding that we exist, we can actually open [00:24:00] bridges to understand each other because all this narrative, like God create a and that there is just black and white and then there is then we can actually say it. Wait a second. There is people that is involved. You know, there's people that they can be both like like a is not this term. But I hate him so much. But you know, in order to let them understand, then we can open their understanding that the diversity that nature naturally displays can help them [00:24:30] to accept all what? What? We are as a community, you know, all the colours that are in our community. And we just need to find out how to make sure that we are here to learn about each other's experiences. And and that is something that that it is really like, sad to see that, uh, we are just so invisible. And we are so invisible that we, we we intersex people, we don't even know that we are intersex. And some of us have, like, she has to come out. She came [00:25:00] out like, three months ago and and sort of things like that. It was like I came out because I was afraid. I came here in New Zealand as a refugee for being Trans, and I was afraid of coming out because you might confuse everyone. How come if you are trans or if a choose one you know, to kill people or you are this or this or so it's really, like, difficult and, you know, so that's why I feel represented in the two communities. But I just feel that the more the more we learn about [00:25:30] the gender issues and sex and How diverse is the human identity, The more you voices that show, I just want to point out that, um, we're both trend. But at the same time, we also have multiple other identities that are also always silenced. Um, and it's the point of the survey is to get a range [00:26:00] of the silenced voices within our community. So that is the aim. It's not that, like, we know that like gay, white men are the ones that are always getting all the treatment. And apparently our community is great because they are great. But actually there's a huge range of sexual and non sexual identities that are also excluded from this community that we never hear about. And so the aim of this was to shed light to all of that. It's not to like silence anyone or anything along those lines. Um, and we know that there's a huge lack of education, and that shows [00:26:30] in this. So yeah, I just want to say congratulations on some fantastic research. I think it's fantastic that we've had the opportunity to ask the questions and hear his answers. And my question to you is what were you surprised by in the responses that you received. Was there anything that was new that you didn't expect to see come through? I think for me personally, it was that there was more than just myself [00:27:00] that felt silenced, um, and invalidated by teachers. Um, I think that that's quite nice to have that in writing and also a few of the other things that I'm always pushing like, um, the flags and stuff and, like how we only ever show the community as lesbian and gay, and every now and again, we'll get some trains. And then I feel really lucky we'll get by or intersex. But that's very, very rare. And so it was nice to have that in writing. And but yeah, it was the teachers. I think that really surprised me. [00:27:30] Yeah, I guess reading about, um, like, asexuality and a romanticism. Um, those things surprised me because I'm I identify as asexuals. So that's something that, um I'm interested to see that I feel I feel completely isolated. Um, even within our community sometimes. So just hearing about, um, the fact that other people are identifying, and I think that the thing with the younger generation is that maybe they are identifying more with, um, more [00:28:00] fluid identities. Um, and that's sort of becoming an OK thing, you know, Like that's, um People were just figuring out that they're not in boxes and and that's great. Um, also the thing with the media like I. I realised that we have negative representation in our media, but I didn't realise it was like people found it. That that intensely negative. Yeah. Do we have How did you go up to [00:28:30] 25? So, yeah, there were some, like, tertiary people and also people who maybe weren't at school, but working there were There were a lot of responses from people. People were saying that they weren't still in school or they had left school. So, um, there was a range of voices heard. But like I said, if we had funding, I think we would add in a couple more questions. Like, have you left school [00:29:00] or something along the lines of how do you find your workplace? You know, But, um, for now, in the time that we had, like, we've only had two months to do this. So we haven't had a lot of time to push it and go in depth as we would like. I think, um I'm just gonna It's a really interesting conversation. I'm a bit reluctant to cut it short, but I'm just gonna give Jim one more question and then I can do that because I'm speaking next and I've got time, So I have. So Hi, this is a great initiative because [00:29:30] speaking as a government bureaucrat, that's the evidence. Is there the ammunition and making change? Um, housing and homelessness has come up for youth people overseas. That's what I see that as an issue here in New Zealand, there were a handful of people that were mentioning that home wasn't safe and there was a question in there. Um, the responses didn't come up as much as I think we would have expected. But I think that that's mainly because we didn't have a specific [00:30:00] question towards that identity. Um, or like that issue, I mean, and that is more a time issue than anything. I can just quickly say that, um out of when we talked about the invisible issues that 9. 4% of the responses were surrounding, um, abuse, violence, rape, and also homelessness, unemployment, those sorts of issues. So about 10% of of those issues. So, yeah, it was covered a little bit. But as Bella said, not as much as maybe if we initiated [00:30:30] a question or something around that, then we'd we'd get more response out of that. We And while they've done the survey, they've also helped a lot with organising our conference, the youth conference, and also with our help today. So, um, please give them a big clap. [00:31:00] They are doing this on top of their work, of inside out, just being young people and, um, and all of the other work that they are also doing in the community. And then we asked them to do the conference as well. So there's a lot going on. Um, And now I would like to introduce Sarah who, um, helped organise our pre conference for women. And [00:31:30] Sarah has also on the committee, so he has been able to do their conference and our conference at the same time. So thank you. And a big round. Good morning, Anna. Customs as I am, you're speaking to large crowds. Um, I actually just want to pick up on that youth report stuff. Um, I have some of you may know, completed a master's degree in looking at homophobia in tertiary accommodation. And many of those responses were surprisingly [00:32:00] exactly the same. So clearly there is a lot of work to be done in the wider communities. A lot of work to be done with youth, whether they be at school or at tertiary education. OK, so, um, I had the privilege of, um as said during the women's pre conference, who on the 13th of February, we invited women from across Wellington to come and engage with us with the idea to feed into this conference. So I'm just gonna I'm gonna be I really am going to be very brief. Um, [00:32:30] I had something prepared earlier, but I didn't print it out. Luckily for me, I work here, so I was able to go upstairs to my office and print it out. That's why I disappeared just before we came up with a Copa, which we'd like to I'd like to read now, which we would like to hold out for the conference, Um, as well as the that is in the, um, conference programme. We Wellington. Women want the conference to make links and connections between mainstream queers, C, white, lesbian [00:33:00] and gay men with jobs and health and the indigenous, the bisexual, the trans the intersex communities and those without money with health issues and without housing. We want to avoid ghettoising discussions into the respective communities EG trans on trans issues, Maori on Maori issues. We want to keep explicitly drawing the links between us all the time. We want this conference to be an opportunity for us all to take responsibility, to educate ourselves on other situations, issues health and well-being [00:33:30] and to not expect others to do it for us. Um, I'm running a workshop. I think later on today it'll be in your programme. I'm not this unorganised. I promise it will be great workshop. So I'm just gonna give you some of the stuff that we'll be discussing. And I hope hopefully that will pique your interest and make you want to come along. Um, what can we do to make people safer? How can LGBTI Q and Mup FA FF communities ensure some space for all people [00:34:00] disabled and LGBTI Q? What is need for in what is needed for inclusion. How would queer folks with disabilities like to be supported? What are the implications of Australian immigration law changes for New Zealand and Pacific L GB RT Q supporting the support for LGBT Q refugees coming to New Zealand. This is a growing issue that we are all very aware of, I'm sure, and one that we'll be facing as a country as more and more refugees come to visit [00:34:30] us and stay and we welcome them to our homes and include them in our country. Um, separate spaces and groups combined ones. What are the barriers lesbians have we assimilated? That's always a good word, isn't it? Racism and structural barriers to inclusion in the LGBTI Q community. Another big issue. Trans intersex health. Not just H RT and surgeries. And as I could, [00:35:00] I go, I could go on. But I'm not going to because otherwise it'll take up my whole workshop and then you won't know it. You would have done it. So I'd like you to encourage you to come along. Marie will be there with me. Um and we we're gonna try and keep it organic. We want it just to be a conversation amongst whoever wants to come along, and we'll just try and take the movement forward, create some activism, make some changes. Start to make some changes because clearly, we're not going to be able to resolve everything [00:35:30] in these two days. As much as we are superhuman and we want to, we're not going to be able to. But we just want to start the conversations rolling and start healing because there's been a lot of pain and a lot of hurt in lots of communities. So we need to start that healing as well as part of that activism. So thank you all for listening to me, and I hope to see you at my workshop. Otherwise, I'll see you around. I'll be on the Hub or other places. Thank you. [00:36:00] So we are ahead of schedule. So, um, maybe we can take the opportunity to ask more questions. Um, I see you in the audience. So while Rose is just quietly walking down the stairs, Ros Noonan is the current patron of Tan, and many of you will know that Rose was New Zealand's former human rights commissioner. Rose, it's [00:36:30] wonderful to have you here and Ross is playing several roles here in the conference. He's going to talk about human rights and and preparation for our session. So but Rose is here. We're calling Roz and Joy who will be joining us later. Joy here, Um, our conference, we So she's going to be listening to what's going on and sort of picking up the the larger vibe, and then we'll be involved significantly [00:37:00] as we pull everything together tomorrow afternoon. Evening. So, guys, we are truly delighted to have you here. Um, we know that it's been an effort for you to get down to Wellington, so we feel blessed that you're able to make it so sparkly people introducing Rosine and [00:37:30] Kevin and all of the organisers. I just want to say what a privilege it is to be here with you. And, um, the sense of energy and commitment and challenge and inspiration at the opening last night made it really worthwhile, despite, um, [00:38:00] a few challenges that I had about leaving Auckland. Uh, just at this particular time, for family reasons, Uh, II, I was thinking that, um first of all, we were thinking that this was, you know, happening at the time 30 years celebration of the, uh, first human rights law Reform, the homosexual law Reform. And, um And then this week, we got the Human Rights Review Tribunal's [00:38:30] decision on the Adoption Act. And somehow those two things highlight. I think for me, um, the importance and the recognition that we need to celebrate victories and we and we need to treasure them because they can easily be lost particularly, um, in the in the human rights area if we're not, if we don't recognise and treasure them. Um, but there are always more challenges [00:39:00] and that it is persistence. And it's celebrating. Maybe having a bit of a rest and then finding the energy, um to identify, recognise what still needs to be done. And we've just heard this morning. I think you know an extraordinary survey, uh, to really focus us on the next steps. Um, and what needs to change? And for me, I mean, what is important [00:39:30] is that my grandchildren, of whom there are 42 boys and two girls, that they can grow up in a world where they can absolutely be who they are without fear, without trauma. Um, with confidence and actually you sitting here today are absolutely necessary to make that possible for them. [00:40:00] And so I really thank you for for being here and shortly We're going to, um, have a human rights commission. Um, and politicians panel Last night we heard, you know, and I wanted to tell to in the strongest possible terms, uh, we heard the message from Renato, but also from others. And the evidence is overwhelming that if we want [00:40:30] a community, a society, a neighbourhood where human rights are actually respected and a part of the lived reality of people every day, then that comes down, in the jargon to an active civil society. Which means it comes down to each one of us both individually in how we, um if we want our rights to be respected, how we [00:41:00] in turn, have a duty to respect the rights of others and to remember that in our daily lives, within our families, within our schools, within our workplaces, um, within our clubs and and and neighbourhoods and on the street. Um, but it's not just us individually, because if we look at the victories and in fact, if we look at the history of this country of ours of A and New Zealand. Then what [00:41:30] we see is that at every point I mean, we have human rights in our founding document, the Treaty of Waitangi. That in itself is an extraordinary thing. But for a long time, aspects of those human rights were disregarded, were dishonoured. And had it not been for Maori insisting right through, we wouldn't be where we are today. If we look at the battle, uh, for women's suffrage [00:42:00] again, there is no human right that has been handed to us on a silver platter. And when I was a trade union official, I used to say to my members, The bosses didn't even give us morning tea, you know, that had to be fought for, so that we have to find the energy. We have to find the new ways of of energising and working together collectively [00:42:30] for change. And I think what's so important about the communities represented here is that in many respects, just as just as the Maori, uh, campaign for sovereignty and recognition as have taught us so much about what it really means to respect people's human rights, their language, their culture. So this these [00:43:00] very diverse communities which make up a community are teaching us about the importance of recognising and acknowledging individual difference great differences but ways of working together to achieve agreed and common goals. And I think that that, um, is going to be one of the lasting legacies of this community. So there's no doubt to me that [00:43:30] the most important thing if we want to, um ensure that New Zealand really is a country, and it's not just a myth that we, um, respect human rights activity at the grassroots is critical. Organisation at every level is critical. But there are some other elements as well, and a society that respects [00:44:00] human rights needs democracy. It needs people to be able to participate in the democratic process. And so, as Jan Logie said last night, you know whether we love them or loathe them. Politicians are an essential part of making change, and I think one of for me one of the frightening things about the developments I see at the moment is the declining percentage of people who vote because if we don't vote, [00:44:30] we cannot be surprised if our elected representatives don't hear our voices. We need to make our voices heard. And so we need democracy. We need, um, we need parliaments. We need the rule of law. So and And that's in a sense, what we see delivering, though it often doesn't. But delivering the Adoption Act decision. [00:45:00] We need accountability mechanisms, and that's where the Human Rights Commission comes in. So because in any complex modern society, no matter how well intentioned and we've seen, you know, some well intentioned governments start off in New Zealand at various times, Um, but at the end of the day, the competing pressures on them mean that human rights often get slipped to the bottom. And that's whether it's about child [00:45:30] poverty. Um, you know, or any of the other pressing issues, um, that still face our our society today. And so over the last 25 30 years around the world, national human rights institutions have been established as institutions of the state but independent of government, and they're supposed to be open to everyone accessible to [00:46:00] all, and their mandate is to ensure that the state and all of its various agencies and elements know what the human rights issues are in any situation and that they advocate for human rights, that they are the conscience of the state and that they are the bridge between the international human rights standards and what's and making those real on the ground. [00:46:30] And they're they're the the door through which people can walk when all other doors have been shut to them. So it's really great to know that the Human Rights Commission is here today, um, with us, and I'd like to acknowledge, um, two commissioners Richard somewhere I In fact, I climbed over him to get into a seat and and he'll, um I think be chairing the panel and Jackie Blue. I see [00:47:00] out there who's, um uh, the Equal Employment Opportunities Commissioner. And employment, obviously, is a big issue for, um for this community and these communities. So the Human Rights Commission is an agency of the state. But I just want to repeat that it's not part of government, but it's a critical agency. But like all agencies and I say this as a former chief human rights commissioner, [00:47:30] it was always a message to myself, just like politicians, the commission needs to hear from us. We need to knock on its door. We need to challenge it, Um, and and we also need to, um we need to make sure that we also tell it when it's, you know, achieving what we want it to achieve and when it's when it's making a difference for us. So it's the Human Rights Commission really is yours. It should be accessible to everybody. [00:48:00] And, um and I hope that with the panel that's coming up, uh, you'll find ways of making connections both with the commission and with the politicians who will be on that panel because those politicians and their colleagues need to be hearing from you. You know, as much as they're hearing from the big businesses that have so much influence here, there's more of us. There's more of us on the electoral roll than there are [00:48:30] big business owners. And so that's, you know, something to keep in mind. Uh, so again, Marie, thank you very much for inviting me and having me here. It's a real privilege, and I'm looking forward to working with joy and to be, and I and I hope, um, that it's all that you'll feel comfortable, feel OK or tell us if you don't If Joy and I are slipping into workshops and just sitting, you know, listening and hopefully hearing the key messages [00:49:00] that we can help bring together at the end if you thank you so much.

IRN: 1056
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/closing_plenary_proud_2016.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004424
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089718
TITLE: Closing plenary - Proud 2016
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Aych McArdle; Elizabeth Kerekere; Richard Tankersley; Rosslyn Noonan
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Alex Ker; Anne Russell; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asia Pacific Outgames; Aych McArdle; Bella Simpson; Conor Twyford; Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples (2007); Eliana Rubashkyn; Elizabeth Kerekere; Evolve Wellington Youth Service; Free and Equal (UN campaign); Grant Jones; Human Rights Act (1993); ILGA Oceania; ILGA World; InsideOUT Kōaro; International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association (ILGA); Intersex Trust Aotearoa New Zealand (ITANZ); Jack Trolove; Kassie Hartendorp; Kay Jones; Ken Moala; Kevin Haunui; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Nauru Regional Processing Centre; Pacific; Pacific Islands Forum; Pacific Sexual Diversity Network (PSDN); Post Primary Teachers Association (PPTA); Proud 2016 (Wellington); Rainbow Youth; Rawa Karetai; Renato Sabbadini; Richard Tankersley; Rosslyn Noonan; Sally Dellow; Sara Fraser; To Be Who I Am (2008); Tommy Hamilton; University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine; Wellington; activism; ahi kaa; aroha; awhi; bodily autonomy; climate change; convention refugee; diversity; education; farewell; feminism; gender expression; gender identity; health; health care; health system; hinengaro; human rights; identity documents; inclusion; inclusive language; intersex; kawa; mana whenua; non-governmental organisation (NGO); poroporoaki; rainbow refugee; refugee; reproductive justice; self determination; suicide prevention; support; takatāpui; tangata whenua; tikanga; tinana; trans; transgender; waiata; wairua; whānau; workshop; youth
DATE: 11 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine, Mein Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the closing plenary hosted by Ros Noonan. This is followed by the poroporoaki led by Richard Tankersley and Elizabeth Kerekere.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello, Greetings and welcome to this final session of it's been a real privilege for me to be here, to hear the generous and moving sharing of stories, experiences and expertise, and [00:00:30] to witness the coming together of via and young people old and older. Some of us are and everyone in between, from the extraordinarily rich and diverse range of or programme with its range of pre conferences, plenaries and workshops, there has been so much to learn from each other the importance of strengthening ourselves, [00:01:00] how better to look after each other, acknowledging what still needs to be done and what still must be changed. Now each of us can participate according to my calculations, and only five of some 29 workshops. Um, so this is an opportunity to hear recommendations from those from all of the workshops or all of those that made recommendations. [00:01:30] And I realised that some workshops were about the sharing of experiences or particular knowledge and, um, expertise, and didn't involve recommendations. So in that case, I'd like you to hold any comments you've got till the end, because it's really important that we get the recommendations or proposals for action on the table and able to go to, um, the Oceana board tomorrow. Um, [00:02:00] and if there's time and, um, we'll try and keep it short and sharp because after full consultation and discussion, we've agreed two minute, uh, feedback from each workshop. So if you've got recommendations, so, uh, is going to be the strict timekeeper, Um, and because also, because we're very conscious, This has been an extraordinary conference, a lot packed into it, um, starting very early and going right through, [00:02:30] you know, to at the very end of the day. So everybody, there's been amazing energy, but understandably, it's wearing. So we'd like to keep it short and sharp and moving for this final session before we hand back, um, to the for the, um the so two minutes And what I thought I would do, uh, is just read out the names of the workshops as they occurred, you [00:03:00] know, three at a time. And so people could come down because then it saves, um, waiting, waiting time. Um, as people come to the microphone, but we'd like people down here. So on Thursday, the first of the workshops were working with Rainbow communities as a health professional love life for six. Um, And instead of comics and design, I think there was It was called It's gonna get better. Um, there was an alternative there, uh, bisexuality [00:03:30] research and from bisexual to soo sexual. So, actually, that's five I've read out. But if people from those workshops who've got recommendations could come to the front And, um, man, we're gonna start with you or Tommy. And just on that, we have Corey here taking notes. But if you do want to submit anything, please email us at the email on the website, which is info at dot org dot NZ We won't take two minutes. So there are recommendations, [00:04:00] and there will be emailed through to the group. So it was a wonderful session. Can we remember how many recommendations there are? The only it It was an action to maintain a connected network of health professionals from the rainbow community. That's thank you. Thank you. Thanks. [00:04:30] And do I take it in the absence of anyone else from that first list That no recommendations from those workshops? Ok, so we'll move on to, um, the afternoon session. Uh, well, that was an afternoon session But the the late afternoon session so surviving and thriving as an activist, Pacific Health and spirituality Silver Rainbow, making aged care a safe and welcoming place. [00:05:00] So again we're starting with Manny and Tommy. We had a wonderful workshop. It was all recorded, Um, which will go into a narrative. But we didn't come out with a collective statement other than the importance of looking after ourselves and the fact that as a community we're very good at looking after other people and not usually very good at looking after ourselves. So that's an area that's really important. [00:05:30] And I think everyone said, um, we need to do more work in this area. But but again, that will form. Um, not a formal recommendation. But there's information for the community. So again, thank you. OK, so then, in the next two that afternoon, with the women's, how to build communities through activism and creating queer friendly school cultures, Uh, [00:06:00] I'm not sure who was here for the Silver Rand session, but it wasn't really a, um uh, recommendation discussion. There's a need to look at ways to, um, uh, improve the policy framework, um, to get a mansion built in the aged care sector, which would have been more inclusive. Thanks for that. Uh, um, Sarah, um, we get I guess the [00:06:30] main thing that we would get them to send back to the committee would be for the, um, to advocate more for LGBTI Q peoples as on on the most vulnerable groups in refugee situations. And there will be an explicit priority in refugee policy. The LGBT Q needs to be considered in refugee situations. People of a particular country may not be at risk to return to their funding. The GB ITQ people. So [00:07:00] thank you. Thank you. And I think it's, um, you know, very timely because, uh, those of you who are, uh, who live in New Zealand will know that the government is just in the process of continuing of considering, uh, whether to, uh, increase the refugee quota. And so, um, it's really important to keep the issues before them. Uh, and to ensure that in fact, they do. There is [00:07:30] a focus on the most vulnerable of refugees. Um, and that New Zealand makes a welcoming and supportive place for them. OK, so and no nobody from the creating queer friendly schools culture because I know there's lots of terrific work being done in that area. No recommendations. OK, so I think one of the two facilitators were congratulated. [00:08:00] It was essentially the expenses being funded by PP A for them to work after school that, um, the efforts must continue, which PPD a has already been doing on trying to get their programme funded. Happened during the day during the school day, the secondary schools and also tertiary institutions, particularly the universities, colleges of education. [00:08:30] I was a participant there, but that was one of the OK, so that's a very clear recommendation. Thank you. Um, so today, coming to today and this morning's workshops, the first three were the Pacific Human Rights Conference Outcomes, the out of work and Queer Life drawing making ourselves visible. So have we got [00:09:00] any recommendations from the Pacific Human Rights Conference outcomes or that sort of more reporting about what had happened? Um, yes. There's more discussion on what had happened. Um, well, there was a call for for, um, aid from Australia, New Zealand to assist in in, um, technical expertise in in doing, uh, proposals [00:09:30] for funding to fund our projects. so that that was a recommendation. Thanks for that. Um, out of work. There would be no recommendations from out of work. Uh, queer life drawing, making ourselves visible Rainbow communities and sex work. I don't I went to I don't think there was any recommendations from that. Some good information, though [00:10:00] That was a small workshop. There were four participants, as I understand from talking to the, um, workshop leader at Sorry. There was a small workshop, as I understand it. So there may not be anyone here that could actually report on that The workshop leader had to leave, uh, after the session. OK, so then we've got Don't leave out the eye into sex issues in New Zealand, Australia and the Pacific, and I understand that [00:10:30] this was a remarkable first the first time there's been an Intersect Pacific workshop, Um, at any such conference. So it's a wonderful, um, occasion. So I've been pleased with everybody to not leave out of the eye, and I'm gonna give everyone a chance to quickly say something. So we just discussed that the fertility issues for a lot of us [00:11:00] is a problem. And also I want to say that I am a trans intersex woman. Hi, I'm Delia. I am a sex woman and I am C CIS gender. Hi, I'm Alex. I'm a non-binary trans woman. Why? To say trans trans person. It's been a long day. Um and I'm into sex. And we also [00:11:30] just wanted to give visibility that some of us are male identified as well. And we have Ryan here. He's pointing out intersects as as common as redheaded naturally born people. And our list will just be able to start it before the bell rings. Well, I think we've given how we're going. We can give you a little bit of extra time. And I think this is such a historic moment. It would be good to hear the whole thing. Diversity educations. Um, so these are our recommendations? [00:12:00] Um, First is diversity education specifically around intersects for healthcare professionals. Next, diversity education specifically around intersex for media. Thirdly, inclusion of intersex content and voices at all conferences. That's rainbow conferences. Four. Take responsibility for your, um educating yourself. Don't and don't tokenize five be a responsible ally sex. Um being invisible like [00:12:30] intersex being visible, sharing narratives, defining differences between trends and intersex experiences. Seven intersex people are a rainbow within the rainbow. We also are across the rainbow so intersects people are in each of those different identities within the rainbow and also outside of the rainbow. So it includes cisgender and, um, heterosexual people, too. Um, lobby for global change, which is around informed consent, human rights [00:13:00] and restricted surgery. Nine. what legislation is appropriate? And so things such as the Malta model 10, no one has the right to tell us who we are. So self determination and body autonomy, um 11 outreach for support and accessibility to peer based networks. So making sure that people have access to their communities. Um, 12 intersex people don't need to justify themselves or explain themselves to others. [00:13:30] Um, and that includes our community, um 13. Equal access to fertility and adoption support. Um, 14 accessible health care, medical, surgical and mental health. 15 address. Um, medical normalising surgery. Stop doing it. No. And also acknowledging [00:14:00] that access to appropriate health care is a lifelong need is, um, across adulthood and old age? Um, 16. We are not sick. This is not a pathology. Um, and 17 is about recognising that hyperspeed is also an intersex condition because the medical organisations don't necessarily do that. Thank you. [00:14:30] I think that's a very, very special moment. And definitely one of the highlights of this wonderful conference and who have I know, climate change and the LGBTI community to, um I was asked to give the feedback from the sweatshop because both facilitators have [00:15:00] childcare responsibilities this afternoon. Um, first, uh, the workshop would like to, um acknowledge that, um that we regretted that due to the workshops, um, timing with others there were no Pacific representatives in our workshop and that our proposals would have been richer with their perspective. Uh, we had a wide ranging conversation about the climate change issues. [00:15:30] Um, we identified that the wide range of potential responses we could make could be attached to a framework from personal through national, regional and global. Um, and many of these responses are not LGBTI Q, uh specific, for example, personal responses that we discussed, like recycling, reducing carbon footprint sector, but that there [00:16:00] are some that are specific. Um, we have some recommendations for at, um firstly, at the world level. Our first proposal is that uber develops or promotes LGBT IQ guidelines to all states and organisations providing support for refugees and asylum seekers. These [00:16:30] guidelines would be about maintaining safety for individuals. It would include outlining the practical needs of the variety of our communities, specific supplies, for instance needed in those situations, specific health needs and specific issues of identity papers. Our second recommendation at a world level is to ensure [00:17:00] that international disaster responses include specific NGO NGO S with an LGBTI focus to prioritise the safety of our vulnerable community and, um, international disaster situations. We have some proposals for Ilka Oceania. Uh, firstly, we invite Pacific LGBTI [00:17:30] Q communities to tell us what would assist them in response to climate change so that we can help support you in the ways that you prioritise. Um, and the second question for ocean. How can we support existing LGBTI groups already doing work in situ? Um, there was, uh, uh individuals in our group. It was sort [00:18:00] of a really diverse group of people with uh a a great lot of information and expertise. And, um, it was just great to hear some of the information. Um, and that would be more widely distributed, Uh, that would be great. And thirdly, at the national and local level in New Zealand. Firstly, we would want to work to ensure policies and plans for disaster response. Mitigation and [00:18:30] recovery are inclusive of LGBT needs. And, um, if climate change sadly does lead to displacement of Pacific communities to New Zealand, we would want to work to ensure strategies and plans for receiving displaced people with dignity in New Zealand, and that these strategies and plans are inclusive of the needs of LGBTI. People [00:19:00] central to maintaining the dignity of displacement, be empowering them to make their own decisions crazy. You didn't tell us your name. It's particularly, um, significant to have that [00:19:30] set of recommendations when pro climate change impacts on human rights, every aspect of human rights, of people in the Pacific as well as beyond. And, um and we need to be, you know, focusing on ensuring that any response to human to climate change is fully fully takes account of the human rights of those communities most affected by it. So thank you very [00:20:00] much for those those this afternoon, the first set of workshops were talking about informed consent and bodily autonomy for trans intersex and gender. Nonconforming people. A refugee among refugees sharing the life of an activist and an open transgender person Male to female in a country that's so rich in culture and religion. Um, which was Yeah. So those are the three. Did any of those groups [00:20:30] have recommendations? Come on down Very short. And it was already mentioned by third persons regarding refugees. Uh, that we must support refugees in their journey of country of any specific countries of transit. And as we we know what's happening in Nauru and Papua New Guinea with the refugees that are being sent from Australia and they are now living in in in in refugee camps. And we know how, uh, [00:21:00] LGBTI people is quite, uh, vulnerable to this kind of environment and confinement and becoming refugees among refugees that we also must integrate and educate refugee, uh, related groups at the Red Cross and other groups to be educated in issues so they can give proper support to asylum seekers and refugees. And finally, that this is for New Zealand. And I hope it can be done that New Zealand should allocate a specific percentage [00:21:30] of their refugee quota to LGBTI. Yeah, and I and it's it would be very timely to have, As I said earlier, the refugee related recommendations. If the bill goes here on board, um, adopts them tomorrow, actually conveyed to the appropriate authorities. Um, you know, in the near future, I mean, one of the but rather [00:22:00] disturbing things at the moment is that there is an allocation for people with disabilities in the current quota. But apparently, uh, from figures I've seen, we haven't been anywhere near filling it. And it's a very modest, um, like it's 10% or something. It's And yet we're not even able to, you know, we're not fulfilling those. So we do need to pay attention to this issue, which is often out of sight, and, [00:22:30] um and and really engage with people who come as refugees, you know, as part of being and demonstrating a genuinely open and inclusive and welcoming society. OK, I mean, I would just like to acknowledge, um, Joe's Session, which I was able to sit in on how very moving and, um, honest and informative. It was. And, [00:23:00] um, we also had the privilege of a beautiful song at the end. So it was pretty special. Um, the next three suicide issues confronting, uh told from a perspective findings from the power of hope for indigenous suicide prevention study using a norm challenging approach to support gender and sexual diversity. Years 7 to 8 and 9 to 13 and FF phobia and queer [00:23:30] Communities with Club Wellington I, education director at Rainbow Youth. And we did the normality, um, approach to sexuality and gender diversity education in schools. Um, the discussion that we had centred around, um, the, uh, centred around presenting a resource that R youth has developed in partnership. Um, with many organisations and young people nationwide to be used in New Zealand secondary schools. Um, some of the discussion that we [00:24:00] had centred around um anti-bullying initiatives that challenge bullying behaviour rather than um naming people as bullies gives us opportunity to to evaluate our own behaviours also within our communities and within our own school improvements. Um, that we are all responsible for making sure that safe that school in particular and our communities are a safe place for all of our LGBTI young people. Um, that young people deserve schools to be safe, so that they can get on and do all the other stuff that [00:24:30] they do at school. Um, as a com, even within an LGBTI community that we need to collectively challenge the norms that often disempower and isolate are young people. Um, we had a great discussion around the statistic that Jane Logan presented in her open in her address and our opening that it only for to grade 100% success rate. In any social change, all you need to do is activate 3. 5% of the population. So we discussed that relation [00:25:00] to the school environment. You only need to activate 3. 5% of your school population, um, to achieve radical social change. Um, we also discussed, um that homosexual law reform, which we're celebrating 30 years of, um, this year, um, was fought as a community for them for the rights of gay men. Um, that there are many other massive challenges for our community and that it's all of our community's responsibility with a particular regard to, um, intersex communities and trans communities. [00:25:30] Um, that we all need to advocate for learning environments free from prejudice and discrimination in schools and that schools that our ideal view of the world are that schools are a safe haven for all young people and that the revolution is over. So is there any other people from the other group to speak to? No. OK, [00:26:00] so, um, we're on to the last workshop sessions this afternoon, the first of which was laws and customs in relation to sexual orientation, gender identity in Oceania, reproductive justice for LGBTI Q people, intersex medicine, diversity, identity and spirituality [00:26:30] with the, uh, the Pacific One. The final recommendations, which sort of more or less seem to be endorsed, was to endorse the great work which the Pacific sexual identity groups were doing. There were 65 here. Uh, but the best chance of getting changed to the GL BT eight Laws was first of all by working through the central diversity groups of each territory. Secondly, uh, to for each territory to continue to [00:27:00] endorse the the work of the UN, um, free and equal uh, group, which is focusing on human rights with GL BT issues. And the third thing was for each territory to be working with the foreign Minister in the Pacific. Um, the annual Pacific forum in the hope of getting changes. So it was recognised that the best way of getting changes [00:27:30] was from within the territories in the UN, as opposed to other means. You got it. Thank you for that. And the last three were Kaur Outing, violence building Rainbow Communities, free of partner and sexual violence community with the evolved [00:28:00] Wellington Youth Service and the invisibility of gay people in early childhood education. Um, I, um, was one of the speakers from the community with a to you service and other youth people were involved. We didn't have any formal recommendations, but I just really wanted to acknowledge, um, all of the Chinese young people who came to our, um and we were really wanting to talk about their experiences. I think [00:28:30] one thing that really shone out of the discussion was just how many, um, with the growing and his visibility of transgender issues for lack of a bit of a word, Um, what the response has been from a lot of medical professionals and the response has largely been one of fear and uncertainty and confusion that results in the denial of treatment for trans people across the board. And so what I want to do is just recognise the true, um, just the real [00:29:00] What's the word for it? I guess without intentions. The actual courage and the endurance of young Chinese people for jumping through so many hoops to get what they need in order to be able to survive and also to honour those who haven't made it through their journey. Um, so thank you to everybody who was there. And I think some of the stuff that came out of it from our perspective was how we as professionals working within the healthcare sector, continue to hold other healthcare professionals to account [00:29:30] for arbitrary and detrimental decisions and hopes that end up in the loss of trans lives. So I think that's something that we've got to be taking away from that. And I guess the other thing that kind of came up that we spent a lot of time talking about was the development of the trends transgender people within the health workforce. So at the moment, transgender people in the workforce, anywhere it is like something that needs to be developed. But one thing that we kind of talked about is how we [00:30:00] can be aying and supporting um, particularly young Trans people. But trans people across all ages to actually be, um, to be, um, skilled, qualified, supported to be able to do this work themselves because they actually have a lot of the knowledge there, and that's really important. So how we as professionals can be breaking down those barriers to making sure that they, um, they take place? It gives trans people a job, and it gives trans people coming through the support to be able to do, um, that journey adequately. So thank you. [00:30:30] Thank you very much for that. And the unit's highlighting what I observed in a number of the workshops that they really were about people thinking about what they could do individually, where they were in their own communities, workplaces, families to make a difference. And, um, that is equally as important [00:31:00] as what can be done collectively to impact on change. So thank you very much for that. Now we've got time to what's Oh, yes, yes, I just think three things on my list now. Recommendations from the Trans pre Conference, then the Youth pre Conference and the women's pre conference. So are there any [00:31:30] OK? Well, can you? Oh, there you go. Great. I mean, I think it's really wonderful if we can all hear them as well. But if for whatever reason, technology or other things we can't, then there's always the second best. Yeah, I should never sit in the front of the, um so these are the notes. I'm going to read [00:32:00] on the notes. Um, during a conference, we had a discussion about the health. Here are some of the key points one. We need better pathways of care for both trans and under sex people. Two, we need people think to remove the people who also have distinct health needs. Three. We need education about diversity of sexes, genders and all health officials. For we, we need [00:32:30] to look at their bases that are currently providing competent services. These can guide us in the creation of other services and pathways. Five. We need more education as an example, because I think for an example of that is New Zealand based organisations such as Sorry, um, about HIV within our communities, especially trans women and people who do not identify as men who have sex with men. Um that was all Because the rest of us, [00:33:00] if you want to cover, But I will email that to you. Correct? One of the panels, We're the ones. The two panels. I will I will share the notes on my email. Is this is this only movement? I think those are the front of the just from the house, just OK. And we can open up if people if there are [00:33:30] particular recommendations that haven't been mentioned that people want to add. You're welcome to do that. People in the audience. OK, do it at the end, though. Yeah, Let let's just run through each each of them. OK, Ok, so the youth pre conference. And, um, I'll keep it brief because I've spoken a little bit too much. Probably. But, um, just the one recommendation would be having a stronger you voice. Um, I'm [00:34:00] gonna go and learn. Sorry that no one on the board at the moment is under 25 which I think is quite shocking, to say the least, because most of us who have some of the biggest issues are young people. So that would be all I would suggest for stronger use voices. Thanks for that in the women's pre conference? No, no recommendations for this. [00:34:30] I said. I argue unsuccessfully to have, um, youth representation and our Constitution, and we must have voted to do it this time around. But rest assured that our next, um, and mainland will include youth voice and, um, indigenous representation, both in New Zealand and Australia. So thank you. So now I'm throwing it open to [00:35:00] all of you. I think one of the wonderful things about this conference has been the extent to which many diverse voices have been heard. So, as I said, if there's any recommendations from any of the workshops or the pre conferences that haven't been mentioned, that you'd like to mention or any, um, other comments or feedback from the conferences, we as from the workshops, as we heard in relation to one workshop which didn't have specific recommendations. But the feedback was rich in terms of directions. So [00:35:30] yeah, Hi. Um, this is just a general recommendation from a few of the workshops about the need for inclusive language that reflects our communities. Um, and we've heard from different voices where the LGBTI Q is not fully inclusive of Pacific identities and that when we hear lesbian and gay and leave out bisexual, [00:36:00] that makes a difference to the conversation. They not, um, including intersexual transgender people in the discussion, and leaving them out means that there is a switch on, so as role models. The recommendation would be that Elga, Oceania and Elga world do audit and review their own language to ensure the most inclusive approaches. And if there's not a simple solution, work for people to do that. Because if, [00:36:30] um, Elga and Oceania are being resources to be used by people that need to be role models and make sure those resources are useful is this one? No, this does that, um, this is a communication from the conference that has been, um, developed by a number of people. [00:37:00] So I will present that to the committee pushing the committee that this conference requests the New Zealand government and Parliament to amend the Human Rights Act to include gender identity, gender expression and intersex state status. But the wording has additional grounds for unlawful discrimination. Of course, there's not any clap at the end. It's got principles that the ocean [00:37:30] a GM consider adopting the same motion and assisting the confidence of placing this request before the New Zealand government. New Zealand parliament uh, the outstanding issues are one in this ruling has not been tested in the courts of New Zealand, and so people have no confidence that natural two. Because the provisions are not specified in the legislation, people are not aware that the rights are upheld by the current provision. Three. Because the provisions are not specified in the legislation, people who are trying to assert [00:38:00] their rights are not able to highlight that their rights are protected by the current provision. Four. Because of these matters, people are not encouraged to assert their rights. Five. It's highly unlikely that the current provisions, even under the crown, it applies to issues of gender expression, primary or secondary sex characteristics and bodily integrity of autonomy. It, [00:38:30] uh, this has been mentioned the reproductive, uh, justice we shop and something that came out of. That was just the, uh, lack of conversations that are happening in terms of the huge amounts of, um, barriers and discrimination for the queer community with regards to reproductive justice. So I think having more conversations and, um seeing some action [00:39:00] happening in this area would be amazing. Sorry. Sorry. Could you, for my benefit, to make sure I get it right when you say reproductive justice, are we talking adoption, IVF, surrogacy, abortion, all of that. OK, I just want to make sure I've got those, because otherwise [00:39:30] you get misinterpreted. Thank you. And I want to add another one to the one. Um, we also, um there is many intersex people that they're born is sterile. So we also want to find assistance in getting, you know, our our right to have a family and maybe our right to have a genetic footprint. And so it's something that we were discussing as well. So it's more. It's not just I idea more. What options? What are options? Fine. I just wanted to do a huge acknowledgement of the [00:40:00] hard work that Bella and Alex, the young people in the organising committee, have put into this conference. Thank is what they've done and what they've given is incredible. And they deserve the ground of We're very proud inside out to have them and for them to have done this. Um, but also there's been talk about this being our future and stuff. But there are so little young people at this conference. I know there were constraints in terms of the timing and the funding, but [00:40:30] we need to make sure young people here there should have been scholarships for young people. There should have been more effort to do that. And so for future conferences. And I guess internationally as well. I would really encourage that. There is a lot of effort put into that, even if it is doing specific fundraisers to cover costs or that opportunity needs to be available. And we can't expect young people to cough up money to be able to attend things like this. Um, and on a very different note, I think as well, [00:41:00] um, just the kind of issues around sexual violence and intimate partner violence in our communities need to be being talked about and need to be put in these recommendations as well that actually we all need to start talking about that and working towards solutions, because I know Joey wasn't here and I wasn't had, um, their presentation. But just at our friends, [00:41:30] who a huge part of our focus, were on issues of self determination, bodily autonomy, and they're fundamental to all. So many of the issues that are are vital for us. That that was the frame with why legal gender recognition on our birth certificates is really important, even though most of us can still change our passport because it is about us being able to define who we are and not having to have a judge say that's who you are not having to have a medical professional [00:42:00] say who you are. It comes back to self determination, self identity. It also flows through flows through so strongly into our access to health care. And, you know, I'm very excited about the potential we have in the health sector right now because there are so many staunch youth advocates who are really standing up for their rights, even though they know there's a script that they have to say to be able to give access to services. But they're refusing to say, Well, just stick to that script and [00:42:30] they are saying this is who I am and I need health services too, So we really, really, really need to ensure we have an informed consent approach to access to health services where people get health services they need based on their self defined gender identity as it is there anyone, anyone else [00:43:00] who would like to add a comment or articulate a recommendation that didn't quite come out like that in a workshop, but whose spirit was there? I just confirmed with joy to confirm this. Earlier in the conference, Louisa Wall talked about the proposal that the Pacific Island Forum should be encouraged to develop a human rights framework for the Pacific. I just want to seek clarification whether the conference is happy to [00:43:30] include that in the recommendations. Yeah, um, going away the decisions that we've made at this conference, we're not gonna ask us that. And you guys yes, I'm quite happy with that. I think we do all and thank you. [00:44:00] Thanks, man. Yeah, so I think that's that's it. I'll just, um Oh, it's not it. It was read out, but was it OK? So one workshop. So there was a workshop earlier on, um, by the love life, um, people And [00:44:30] I think they've gone now, um, Tim and, um and and over here but the the the the overwhelming message was that, um in in in world and this conference support the work of love life within New Zealand within the Pacific communities in New Zealand and not just in the Auckland region, but try and move down to Wellington and down to the South Island and and and reach out to to to bring those Pacific communities [00:45:00] in New Zealand into the love life framework. Thank you. OK, well, before I hand over to, um to Richard and Elizabeth for the, um just a couple of observations. Uh, and the first one is that the composition of this conference and the fact that it was able to have such a strong, [00:45:30] uh, delegation from the Pacific has been extremely important in reminding those of us who live here in a that actually we all are. We all live on the shores of the great Pacific Ocean and that ocean links us to each other in fact, and while in the past many New Zealanders [00:46:00] are many New Zealanders who are pakeha may have felt that they were European. There are many now like me who don't feel at all Europeans but feel But no, I'm a child of the Pacific and that will continue to evolve and thanks to incredibly generous, uh, gradually, [00:46:30] the thread of, um, Maori is beginning to go beyond, um, Maori communities and into all of our communities and in fact helping to build a true national identity for us here. So and and which is as Pacific Islanders, um, and then as New Zealanders who are privileged to share, um, this land [00:47:00] with. So I think that's been one of the very rich and important elements and out of that. And I think we saw a demonstration of that just now, um, and also in, um, Jack Burden's words about being able to make decisions for us. So I think a very important human rights principle is that no matter how well intentioned, we don't tell people what their priorities should be or what's right for [00:47:30] them or what they need to do. Um, what we need to to develop is the ability to listen, to hear, to ask, and then to support the priorities of those people who are directly affected, directly affected, directly involved those people on the ground. And nowhere is that more important, um, than in the Pacific, where, as you can see as you've been able to see over the last three days. Um, there are people who know exactly [00:48:00] what's required for them and their communities and how to get there. And we need to hear that and then ask, Well, what can we do to support you in that? Um So I think that's, you know, a critical. That's one of the things that's that's really hit me strongly. The second thing was, um and I know we've just heard a comment, but there weren't a lot of young people here, but they were incredibly strong and confident and visible. Young people here, [00:48:30] and I think for many of us that's given great hope for the future and a fresh and energy and young perspectives. And, you know, there's been the occasional comment to me. But, um, you know, don't they know all the stuff that went before? And actually it made me think of myself at that age, as a, you know, seemed way radical socialist feminist who didn't think anything great much had been done before. We [00:49:00] were suddenly on the on the, you know, on the screen as it were, and uh, took a little while to learn just how much other people had done that we were we were building on and how fortunate we were that they had. But the future is with those young people. And again, I think, listening to them hearing their identification of priorities and what that what support they need. I mean, the issues, you know, that have come through, and I'm not going to repeat them. Um, but [00:49:30] clearly, health issues around health has been an absolute priority, and the other one has been education. But in both instances, what we've seen and heard is that there are things happening. So it's not like 10 years ago when things were often, often nothing was happening. And the question was how to get a foot in the door, how to begin things. So there are things happening, but there is a need to increase the intensity of that process of change. And so another [00:50:00] generation of young people don't need to go through it. Um, again. And the probably the final thing I wanted to say was that, um, as somebody who you know for whom the human rights framework, the human rights standards, you know, seem to me still, however, perfect to offer the best, um, basis on for which on which [00:50:30] we can tease out the really complex and difficult issues that we face, um, as a whole world, but also in our individual circumstances that it's really important to remember. I know that often in the past, uh, those human rights standards have been presented as a sort of Western answer to a whole lot of issues. Um, in fact, of course, they draw on all of the great religions, philosophies [00:51:00] of the past of the world. They were simply an articulation of what was there. And I know, um, you know, amongst work that I've seen in Maori communities really clear the human rights dimensions of and and and I know that that's equally true of Pacific coaches and [00:51:30] human rights are not just about the individual, the right to culture. And you can't have culture with our communities, the right to language. Indeed, virtually every one of the human rights depends on the community and on how we work with each other. So I think, and one of the wonderful things about, um, the declaration on the rights of Indigenous Peoples is that that has articulated that collective element that collective, um, dimension [00:52:00] of human rights and put at risk forever the idea that it's only about individuals when it's actually about peoples and communities and groups as well. So once again, as I hand over, I'd just like to, um, acknowledge, um, Kevin, um, and all of this organising committee, because you have done the most amazing job, and I'm, you know, an old hand [00:52:30] of conferences and going way back. And this has been a really, exceptionally important, constructive and productive conference. And so I wish you all well, and I just want to close. Um, with, um, this is this is a blessing that was written by Sir James the of from the North. And it goes, [00:53:00] may the calm be widespread. May the ocean glisten as Greenstone And may the shimmer of light ever dance across the pathway. And listen, thank [00:53:30] you very much. Um, we feel very pleased that you have come to this conference to be our weaver, to hold this to bring your mana. And once again, I want to acknowledge the huge piece of work that you did and creating to be who I am and sitting up there with our thank you so much. And I know it was difficult for you to come down here, so thank you. And on behalf of all of us, um, [00:54:00] I, I I'm handing over to Richard and Elizabeth, and I want to apologise to you both that I have a flight catch with a member of the Who is not well in Auckland. I mean, thank you. Thank um, first [00:54:30] and foremost, I'd like to offer apologies from Kevin, uh, who ordinarily would be leading this, um, part of the proceedings on behalf of the home people, including the organising committee. He's, um, tended his apologies, and he's asked me if I can support the organising committee. Um, by opening this process and by helping us all to close the conference, a number of things will need to happen for [00:55:00] that to take place. Um, the process that we're about to undertake is called by various names across the different tribal traditions in the Maori world is one of those, but it's not universal is another one and which all all talk about processes of closing a farewell and the final greetings. It's the compliment to the opening and first engagement process of the or the that we were offered on Wednesday evening [00:55:30] by the home people down at the The final reporting and evaluative feedback process on the content of the conference has already been carried out by the process that Roland has just led. So this next process is about acknowledging the organisations responsible for bringing us together, acknowledging the hospitality that's been offered and received, paying respects to the expertise that's been present and freely shared and carrying out the process of finding disengagement. [00:56:00] It's a process that, in the Maori tradition, is initiated by the people who are about to leave the people who have been hosted. And so in the interests of keeping this to a manageable time. Because we know that everyone's pretty conferenced out. However great it's been, um, Elizabeth is going to lead this, uh, on your behalf. [00:56:30] Uh, welcome. All of the stayers still here in the room, uh, to all of those who now will leave our shores and travel right to the other side of the world throughout the Pacific. Uh, throughout this country and just down the road on your behalf, I want to thank our organisers and I want to do it in a way. Last night, when I spoke about [00:57:00] a Maori framework for health, we talked about the and the four sides of that is our It's our spirituality and our connectedness to all things. And I want to just acknowledge that although you only had three months to do this, you have pulled together something magic. And I believe that part of the way that you are able to do that is because of the and your own Selves that you bought. You brought with you all of your existing connections inside the community, all of your wisdom, [00:57:30] all of your own knowledge. And you brought that into a space, and in a really short period of time, we'll be able to create this. So I want to acknowledge all of that side of what you did and, of course, and creating the space you gave a place where our wait, wait could come and connect in with the of all the other people who were here. So thank you. The second one pretty. So the second one of four, is is [00:58:00] about our mind and our mental state. You have provided us with a range of workshops that have stimulated us, made us think. And not only that, but in the breaks in the when we miss the workshop and talked out the back, uh, separately that all of those things have helped not only give us something to learn but actually settled our minds, put our minds at ease, made us think about solutions and where we will go into the future. Help us, um, create [00:58:30] connections as we move forward. And I thank you for that. The third one is it's about our bodies. So there's the real practical side of that is the great catering food. I I'm gonna speak on behalf of many people. The food was great, uh, but also the actual things that all of us could be here and all of our glory in whatever way that we present and the way that we express ourselves and feel safe and comfortable to do that and you create the space for that. The last thing is about, [00:59:00] and that's about our connections with our families, but also within our communities. And so in an environment like this, you provide the opportunity for us who are local and work inside this country to need work as always. But you've provided us with those international connections. And I really, really thank you for that. Uh, so in con con con final conclusion, uh, part of our culture and why we do songs is we have a saying that oratory is [00:59:30] the food of chiefs. And so the song is the relish. So it's like, Yeah, you have that, and then you have this. It just makes it better. It just finishes things off. And so I would like those of you who are at the opening on Wednesday night, Uh, we did a and I'm going to invite you to join with me to sing this just [01:00:00] one moment. And while I doing that, I would just like to say I it was by accident that I happened to be the first speaker at the Pride, um, at the Pride launch at Parliament last week and the last speaker here? Uh, that's right. Yeah, it is appropriate. Albeit that it was me in this occasion. I think it's very appropriate that is, that set the platform for everything [01:00:30] to happen and that we help bring this to a close Because we always say that, uh, our culture and as as as is of this country, that we always be empowered and be able to remind you that this is our land and that we welcome you on it. We have the power, and we maintain, um, the authority to do that and welcome you and feel well, you So So this is about us all being [01:01:00] here together. Uh, that's all about the enlightenment and new knowledge. Uh, we're here with love, and we're going out all about us being one people together and all our complexity. So let's try this. There's this technique we use in Maori songs where we just go to, which means 34, and then everyone just hits whatever note they like. I got it. OK, so to [01:01:30] 52 that work, and [01:02:00] I shall we repeat? Yeah. OK, [01:02:30] bye. Finish. You get that. [01:03:00] And, um, pick that up, and, uh, just before we do the final conclusion, uh, again representing the the farewell from the home people, uh, the conference convenor have got some concluding remarks they need to offer. Um, it's been an [01:03:30] emotional journey for all of us. Uh, I remember the opening ceremony. Looking at our team here, every single one of them had to be nice because it's just such an emotional thing for us to be able to do. We were all so tired. We were all full of love for the work that we're doing. And even just now, as we're closing, even I should have, um it's been a a bit of a journey. We've trying to get to know each other. A lot [01:04:00] of us didn't know each other at all. And, uh, for us to get together and organise this for for you has, um they come with a bit of a rough journey as well, getting to know each other. The diversity of our group, uh, comes with different types of conflicts in itself. And yet we've been able to provide you a forum where we've been able to help engage, have discussions and to develop some work streams for not only ourselves to connect you all, [01:04:30] but also for Elga, Oceania, and also Elga World. And that is something that really humbles me. Um, thank you, though I just want to add my words to that. So, um, as I said, said several times. Mad idea to bring the conference here and then to find the team to make it happen. And we were very deliberate and and wanting the organising committee to be diverse. Um and we [01:05:00] did that and it brought with it its own challenges. There was a lot of learning and listening that had to go on with the group, and I don't want to go on about that anymore. What I want to give the conference is the opportunity to thank these extraordinary people who work right through Christmas without breaks, Um, who have given up every single weekend for the last 2. 5 months to bring the conference to you. I would just like everyone to stand and acknowledge [01:05:30] these guys don't need to cry anymore. Thank you, and and we want to visible two people [01:06:00] who are not here. So I will speak for Sally. No, have to go as well. So yeah, there's three members of our crew who are not with us tonight, and that's just the nature of busy people doing busy things. Look, there's a couple of other people that we just want to really thank because They recorded every session and have made their time and would really like [01:06:30] to thank Gareth on the floor. I'll just place the here. That's why that's happening. We have to acknowledge like Bella was determined that people were going to get gifts, not tiny gifts, proper gifts. And somehow she managed to shake those chocolates out of the trio. And, Bella, you've looked after us. The that [01:07:00] you have made. Sure, um that the cards, the kai that we shared so special around the force of Bella about Alex. Because Alex has also been recording our sessions. So thank you. Committee will get something. And if they haven't [01:07:30] got some already, But we are meeting up again in a couple of weeks to do to wrap up, and we'll be doing a lot. It's just that Richard, on behalf of the Human Rights Commission, we'd like to thank you as well and also for closing up our confidence. Thank you so much, Trudy. Thank you both. So the last and final one is to thank you. Because guess [01:08:00] what? You can be a conference of people. Thank you so much. That concludes our conference. Thank you. All right. No, it doesn't. People are tired. I think, Um, my idea is [01:08:30] that the formal closing is actually the portion that we're going to go through now. And, um, this is the element that I said was the counterpart to the the that was offered to you at the, uh [01:09:00] [01:09:30] [01:10:00] I'd like to thank the co convenor for their comments in response to what, uh, Elizabeth has said, uh and formal. Thanks. Just to be reiterated as we close and particularly to Oceania and to I tens for bringing this conference to A and to Wellington in particular, I'd like to give them an acknowledgement. Could you please offer that to [01:10:30] us Already been said. But thank you again to the organising committee for creating and delivering a fantastic conference at such short notice Out of the tatters of the out games. You've done an incredible job, and you must be incredibly proud of yourselves. And if you aren't, then find some of that very, very soon because you deserve all of it. I'd like to thank and acknowledge the speakers and the workshop leaders for their expertise [01:11:00] and their efforts. Um, but last and not least, uh, the world delegation the Helen, Ari and Zan for being here and for gracing us with your presence and with your expertise and your world international perspective. And it's indeed been enlightening to hear what's going on through your eyes through your lens and to take some examples from that in terms of how we forge a way forward for ourselves and our own local context. [01:11:30] By the efforts of everyone who has been mentioned, you've achieved very positive outcomes. And you've also given honour to this ancient land at sacred places and the people who have guardianship over them. And so from the home people here and these our organisers, we wish you all a safe journey back to your home towns and cities and countries. The conference's name is resto the fires. [01:12:00] When we live somewhere, we refer to that as a that is you are the people that keep those home fires burning. So when we say every blessing upon you as you go back to your places, your homes, your towns, your countries, then you're going back to your with some of the sparks that you have taken from this international diverse grouping that have brought and shared so willingly and freely of themselves [01:12:30] and of their traditions. And as you go, we ask that you carry our best wishes our to your homes, your families and your communities and just reiterating the of that that we sang. May the people [01:13:00] all line up together to seek enlightenment and love. Let us all join together and share everything as one. The final act of this, um farewell and it will be The final act is the to close the whole conference. I'm going to give you the English translation first, and then I I'll ask you to stand as I recite it in Maori. And then you can say to the people that are standing right next to you because you really are finished at [01:13:30] that point. So let us retreat and remove ourselves from the activities we have participated in. So we can now be free and unrestricted in mind, body and spirit on the path that we now traverse with balance, harmony and equilibrium. May we be free and clear and released. Would you please stand.

IRN: 1057
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089717
TITLE: Laws and Customs - Proud 2016
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VOICES: Grant Jones
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Africa; American Samoa; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Ban Ki-moon; Bible; Book of Leviticus; Christianity; Cook Islands; Crimes Act 2013 (Samoa); Federated States of Micronesia; Fiji; Frank Bainimarama; Free and Equal (UN campaign); Geoffrey Henry; Grant Jones; Guam; Joey Siosaia Joleen Mataele; Kapul Champion and Friends Frangipani Inc; Kapul Champions (Papua New Guinea); Ken Moala; London Missionary Society; Marshall Islands; Methodist; New Caledonia; Nigeria; Niue; Northern Mariana Islands; Pacific; Pacific Islands Forum; Pacific Sexual Diversity Network (PSDN); Papua New Guinea; Pitcairn Islands; Polynesia; Proud 2016 (Wellington); Radio New Zealand National; Rarotonga; Samoa; Samoa Fa'afafine Association; Solomon Islands; Somalia; Supreme Court of the United States; Tahiti; Te Tiare Association (Cook Islands); Territory of the Wallis and Futuna Islands; Tokelau; Tonga; Tonga Leitis Association; Tuvalu; United Kingdom; United Nations; United States of America; Universal Periodic Review (UPR); University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine; Vanuatu; Wellington; akava'ine; campaigns; church; colonisation; community; crime; criminalisation; culture; customs; diversity; fa'afafine; fakaleiti; female impersonation; homosexual; human rights; lesbian; lived experience; marriage equality; media; news; newspapers; safe sex; sodomy; trans; transgender; website
DATE: 11 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine, Mein Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the workshop: Laws and customs in relation to sexual orientation and gender identity in Oceania.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, And, uh, So anyway, um, welcome. I'm sure there'll be a few more people coming and join us soon. Um, my name is Grant Jones. Um, I'll be talking a little bit. I'll introduce myself just a little bit further on in the programme. But the first of all, I just wanted to just sort of give you an oversight in terms of what it is. So the first part, I just want [00:00:30] you to be aware of the diversity, um, and the spread of people in the Pacific. Um, just one correction here. It's no longer Western Samoa. It's been Samoa since 1997 or 1998. And this map was published off the, uh, in 1997. So I wanted you to be aware of the diversity. See, as you can see up there, the with, uh, the states of Micronesia. [00:01:00] Those five states here, ranging from the multitudes here of, uh, Polynesia, Samoa, American Samoa, Cook Islands, Tokelau, Tonga, uh, New Caledonia, and then Melania, uh, Fiji, Solomons, Um, and the largest territory Papua New Guinea. So if we just sort of, uh, look at this, this gives a little bit more. Um uh, information here. [00:01:30] Um, you can see the spread here of, um, French Polynesia in Tahiti. A large spread of islands. The Cook Islands. OK, going from Rarotonga, right up to, uh, Mana in the far north, which is almost four hours where this guy comes from. It's almost four hours in a small plane or five days by boat. So I just want you to to be aware of. And then up here, we've got, uh, Nui Easter Island, which [00:02:00] is part of Chile, which I had the privilege of going to back in in in 2008. So I put this on just so that you can see the the, um, the diversity of the actual islands. Um, right now, this is, um I just wanted to just sort of clarify this will help to sort of introduce myself. Um, my early teaching was actually in the, um, in the Cook islands. Um, and that [00:02:30] really gave me a good introduction to Pacific culture. Because after that, I travelled, uh, fairly extensively through, uh, New Caledonia, Fiji and Vanuatu. And then that's set, um, the scene. So since then, I've travelled extensively through about nine territories And when I travel, I try to make a point of meeting with people irrespective of their sexuality but and and and, um, talking in the country, concerned [00:03:00] with the more visible presence of of the transgender and so on. So this is this all together helps me to formulate some of my opinions. Now, I'm still actively involved with this, um, this association, um, there. And, um, that's enabled me to touch base either by email or phone with, um, a large number of territories. 18. So I've got a feeling for what it's like right up in in Micronesia to, um, the [00:03:30] smaller islands here. Plus, the other thing that I also do is I always listen to the, uh, Pacific news each night on, um on Radio New Zealand on the Radio New Zealand News. And if things come up, I look at it on the website, and if there are things that I want to get a bit more information, I go back to the primary source like if it's on the cook is to cook on in times, you know, or someone on paper, over to paper or the Fiji Times or [00:04:00] so on, because that helps to give me, um, a better awareness of, um of what's actually happening. Right. So, in addition, um, I've had a major role with, uh uh, the International Federation of Physical Education and the Oceania Group for developing territories with organising a conference here. So that brought me close to the the realities of of of things, right. And in addition, I have [00:04:30] a, um, a Cook island partner. Right now, if I can just explain from here on, I'm gonna put up some charts. One of them will be a United Nations, uh, free and equal chart that was distributed to workshop earlier, Uh, which is quite, uh, which I think is very useful. Um, so I I plan to do it in two parts one to show, um, the huge range as far as for laws and acceptance or otherwise [00:05:00] of human rights in the developing territories in the Pacific. Then the second stage, which is where I'm gonna really invite, uh, comments, uh, and involve discussion, and especially from people from the, um, Pacific Sexual Diversity Group and others to contribute from their experience. When I go through the the the different groups that are actually represented, um, which are are represented here. [00:05:30] And then the next part that I I would sort of come to is in terms of change. And that, I think, is the biggest difficulty is is getting even though there is great changes happening with the Pacific territories getting them to actually make change. So that, uh, um in terms of illegal sex M to M, which is in many territories, still considered illegal, [00:06:00] liable for terms of imprisonment. Although it is very, very, really unfortunate isn't, um is is is is what are the factors that are holding this back? What factors might promote change, right? And at various parts of my presentation, I'm not gonna talk for the whole time. I'm gonna pause to give you people a chance to maybe make some comments, um, and and and such like, Yeah, [00:06:30] I sort of mentioned that I sort of formulate by talking to people. So, uh, my partner and I, um, just under two years ago, we were on a cargo boat going from, um, Tahiti around the remote coral atolls in the tuamotu Group. And so, uh, on the left here, these two lesbian women, um, on the three days they were on the boat had an amazing discussion. And one of the things that transpired was [00:07:00] their full acceptance not only by their family but the wider community. Um, obvious sexuality in the nature of their relationship, which I thought was very pleasing. Right. So you know, II, I know there's been a lot of criticism levied in some Pacific territories because of the way the laws are for same sex people. It's not all bad. So that was my partner. Uh, uh uh there while we're talking. So that's the [00:07:30] reason why I actually put that on. So we talk about the diversity. OK, so this is a cultural show that we had as part of a, uh, a conference in in in Fiji. Um, and I, I think the thing we need to be aware of if we look at the vastness of a country, something like 300 different islands. All right, OK. And we're looking at Papua New Guinea, a population of 6. 5 million, which is greater than the population of New [00:08:00] Zealand and more than twice the size. And then you look at some of the smaller places like the Tokelau Islands. Only about 1300 people spread on three small coral atolls. So I'm just telling you this to make you aware of the, um the, um the diversity All right. I talked before about, um, the the huge range of distance. So this was when with my partner, and I, uh, back [00:08:30] to his home island of in the Northern Cooks. All right, um, and just to show you some idea of the diversity of things that happen before we, we sort of get into. So the other thing is, right now, this particular chart here Excellent. It is current. And this is from the United Nations, uh, group, which is called free and easy. Now, this particular group has been going [00:09:00] for a number of years. Um, it's a United Nations group concerned specifically with human rights and inspecific the laws relating to, um to, uh, gay lesbian trans, um, into sex and and so on. So if you sort of look at this here, um, I've got two charts on this and basically, with most of the Polynesian countries, um, you'll find that laws on same [00:09:30] sex, it's illegal, right? Others you'll find um, it is different, but the important thing that I want to come to, uh, later on is why it is in some territories, we have, um, same sex activity being fully legal, others being illegal. All right, so I'll just move on to the next. [00:10:00] So let's look at, um, here, Papua New Guinea, Samoa, Solomons, Tonga, Tokelau, Tuvalu, and and, um, Vanuatu. Alright, So there have been certainly, um some changes now, the the the the the other thing is that, um the next set of slides that I show gives a bit more information. [00:10:30] It's from Wiki Encyclopaedia, and I've always been suspicious of Wiki Encyclopaedia of the accuracy. But when I checked out a lot of the data on the next set of slides which gives a bit more information on this, it does reconcile pretty closely to what's happening because things in the Pacific Yeah, I do, So yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, you're right. So they would you like to explain how [00:11:00] the acceptance of human Rights do? You can tell them that? No. No, I wanted to say that since the crimes act in 2013. 50 actually legalises, same sex same sex, the same partner, the same same same gender sexual connection, sexual connections between consenting individuals, Right and and I. I will read what it says in section 50. It says sexual connection defined sexual connection means a connection occasion by the penetration [00:11:30] of the genitalia or the anus of any person by any part of the body of any other person or any object held or manipulated by any other other person, or a connection between the mouth or tongue or any part of the body of any person, any part of the or any of any other person and a continuation of that sexual connection. But it it it is very clear that you know that that that I don't blame them because this is recent as 2013. Yeah, but there's still no thank [00:12:00] you for raising that. That should be corrected here because other stuff that I've read, um, has, uh, thank you for sharing that. And I really mean that because I was aware of what happened two years ago that there was acceptance of human rights. But other documentation I read said that it didn't go far enough, but you've actually cited the evidence. When did that actually become law? But was it 2013 where they did actually change that law? Yeah. [00:12:30] Yeah, well, I think that the the message needs to get out to the wider thing there and also in the same act, um wiped out the crime of female impersonations that can now dress in the manner that they want. And, um, it it it it. But the the the thing that we're trying to try and sort out is that in one part of the same act, it also criminalises it still criminalises sodomy. So that's what I say one part of the act that allows [00:13:00] us the act of sodomy, which you know for for our purposes. It's legal, right? This is where the ambiguity has come in because can you see what I mean? This is why it's probably recorded like that because sodomy is still declared. See it illegal in some more right. It's legal as a sexual connection as a sexual connection, but on its own. Hey, thanks so much. And I'll certainly be bringing the pa some people further on when it comes to why these rules, um, are are more or [00:13:30] less for saying right. OK, let's look at legal rights as so this gives a little bit more information. Um, I checked this against free and equal. That's the United Nations stuff there. So this here also gives some, um, uh, very useful information you can sort of see. Especially over the last 10 years, there have been quite a few changes here. You can see this with [00:14:00] New Caledonia, and we'll come to that soon. How some of them really abide by it. And I'm just gonna scroll down, um, a little more. So if we move further down to, um, Fiji? Um, yeah, they have changed their illegal status in the last six years. Uh, yon we mentioned. And, uh, PNG Papua New Guinea and and and Solomons, um, are still fairly entrenched in [00:14:30] maintaining the status quo. OK, there's certainly been some, uh, some movement there, uh, in terms of abolishing the law that they had with, uh, male sex. Now, the other comment I want to make is that as far as I can trace, um, same sex females has never been part of the agenda or the laws. From what I've seen, in the Pacific in the last few years. I don't know [00:15:00] of any territory now, which, um, makes same sex, uh, between two women. Illegal. Right. OK, let's move on. Right. Let's look at Polynesia. Um, this is an interesting one. because American Samoa is actually part of, um USA. Um, yeah, um, as an overseas territory, [00:15:30] um, Easter Islands Nui, which I mentioned before, um, a small island volcanic island. About 3000 people. I have the pleasure of a stopover on a flight from Tahiti to Chile. I was stopping over there, and you can see that, uh, their rights go right across. Um, cook Islands. Um, they are still back in. There's been no change at all. Um N a, [00:16:00] uh, which is self governing with free association within New Zealand, as is the Cook Islands. They made the choice in terms of, uh, N a, um, becoming same sex legal since 2007 pit islands. There's a reason why I mentioned that. Why do you think a small island of about 51 of the most isolated Pacific territories in the world should have [00:16:30] ticks right through? Why do you think that would be. So the question is, why is it that in terms of the legality of sex recognition of same sex relationships, marriage and all the rest of it, they took all the boxes for pit islands? Only 50 odd people. Why do you think this would be so? Well, that's one way of looking. But I'll tell you, [00:17:00] they didn't have a choice. Pardon? Well, I was gonna suggest that after the incident of all the child molestation case they had there, perhaps they were trying to increase their reputation on such drugs. Yeah. No, actually, the reason was that they have a choice. They're regarded as an overseas territory of the United Kingdom. And like it or lump When the United Kingdom brought in, um, the ruling on on on same sex marriage in 2015 pit can islands had to actually follow [00:17:30] it. So that's a very reason why I've actually, um, left it down there. So it's not just an island. It's some insignificance of 50 people that, uh, got justified bad publicity because of, um, behaviour. Um, with a small number, um, a few years ago. Ok, let's just sort of, um, move on through here. So Samoa, we've, um we've actually, um, talked about and, you know, it's [00:18:00] it's it's to the credit of Samoa that they are making some rather positive changes. OK, now, But I think it is also kind of another discussion about the the relationship between homosexuality and sodomy. Yeah, um, because culturally from our own perspective, and you'll find this very, very true in the Pacific as well. Just because we allow same sex activity, you know what I mean? Like, it doesn't mean that because [00:18:30] sodomy has a very special place in our culture. It's It's a very special place for us as a to our relationship or the the here, between us and our sisters. Sure. Do you know what I mean? It's It's a really, really, really difficult thing for for governments to try and and opt our sodomy for the protection of the women. More so than anything else. Sure. As you can see in the case, they've legalised. They've effectively legalised, um, sodomy for saying consensual. Same sex, Sure, but you know, they've kept that part [00:19:00] in the in the in the end, which is you know, at some stage, somebody is going to test that in a in A in a court case. And so sorry, I don't understand it legalised sodomy for same sex relationship. But it didn't legal legalise sodomy for intersexual relationship. No, no, no for any kind of relationship. So any person the wording of the act in Section 50 is any person, right? It It defines a sexual connection between consensual kind of sexual connection between [00:19:30] two adults so it could be male, female, male, male, female, male, female, female doesn't really matter as long as it's consensual and you know, they, they they follow the the the the What's descriptive in the act. It's a sexual connection. It's a lawful sexual connection where, where where force is introduced, then it's a sexual violation, which is different to to thank you for that and the other comment I just made whilst you've seen here that, um, in some, uh, with a number of territories about where same [00:20:00] sex is illegal and liable for terms of imprisonment. I only know of one case in the last few years, and that was actually in Fiji about 10 or 12 years ago, um, where they actually charged a same sex couple. Um, a rather unfortunate, um, situation. But even Fiji have made some very positive progress from there. Now, I just want to make reference here to, um to the, uh, uh, the [00:20:30] Tokelau Islands. They are really part of the, uh, part of, uh, New New Zealand. They're not self governing. They're not independent. The office for to happens in New Zealand, they the New Zealand government. As far as their relationship with the, um with the the total hours is they've really got self government. They have made good on them. They have changed the law without any pressure from New Zealand. OK, [00:21:00] and I think that's important. Even though there's only 12 or 1300 people in the total islands spread between three coral A, which is overnight on a boat between each right. Ok, let's look at, um let's Let's look at Tonga and Tuvalu, Right? Um, they've made pretty well, no change. Um, at all As far as, uh, their laws are concerned. Very pleased. [00:21:30] Look at Wallace and Fortuna. You can see that they have made great changes in the last few years. Why do you think that might be so? They are an isolated, uh, small group of islands. They don't have a tourist industry geographically isolated with just a flight from That's exactly it. That's exactly it. They are a French territory, right? And I'm gonna come to this [00:22:00] in the next set of slides here. OK, So if we look at the territories where, um, there are some very positive things that are happening So we can see why is it that since 2013, those three French territories have made changes to all of these things, including same sex marriage? Why, [00:22:30] OK, I'll tell you. Tahiti and French Polynesia and New Caledonia, they each have two seats in the French Senate. So they didn't have a choice when the law was changed in France. On these issues here, they had to follow suit Wallace and have one seat in the French Senate. So that is why they complied, which is really interesting [00:23:00] now, in terms of the US requirements Since 2015, those three territories there Guam, Northern Marianas and Federated States of Micronesia. Uh, in addition, they they declared the legality of male sex some years ago. But in terms of the human rights issues, the human rights issues in terms of same sex marriage and, um, and that sort of thing. Um they've [00:23:30] been forced to follow the US requirements with the which the president of USA brought in last year. Right? So I think that is quite significant. And the next territory which I'll just scroll down. I've already spoken about the UK requirements in terms of in terms of pit count islands. Right now, if we look at the other New Zealand territories, which is Cook islands, which [00:24:00] is self governing and free association with New Zealand, the same as as, uh as a is free association, they have the right to make their own laws and so they've still got a little way to go to ours. Constitutionally, with their relationship with New Zealand, they should be obliged to follow New Zealand laws. But, um, the Foreign office does actually allow them [00:24:30] a degree of self government, but it is to their credit that they've made, um, some definite changes. So, I, I think this is a very positive slide here, where they are following the same same sex, um, the same same sex requirements which happens in their their territory concerned that the United States of America American. I'm coming to that. I'm coming [00:25:00] to that, Uh, because that's a really interesting one. In fact, this follows very soon the I'm gonna I haven't forgot. I've actually got a slide on American Samoa Now here we are. These are territories where the GL BT laws are not observed because of societal expectations. Now, um, the reason for this will be quite apparent to the people from the Pacific territories. [00:25:30] So at this stage, I'd just be interested to know if the other non Pacific people are aware of what this might be in all of the above territories, same sex male activities with the clarification of what I said about Samoa, uh may result in the term of prisonment but is rarely enforced. There's no recognition of civil union, uh, relationships or same sex marriage. Why do you think that might [00:26:00] be? Why? What is it that the culture of the customs that is holding that back? Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. The what, exactly? The the um the the The Church. And I think one of the things and statements that I want to make is that with most of the Pacific territories. The church is a very strong and respected part of [00:26:30] the territory's culture. Some more. You agree with that? Fiji, right? It's a very strong part of the culture, far stronger than what we have here. Why is it that the church is so strong in the all of these territories and in most of the Pacific compared with Australia and New Zealand, [00:27:00] we have church in New Zealand. Yeah, exactly. Colonisation. And I think this is an important part of our history to sort of understand that colonisation in the Pacific became began in the latter part of the 18th century. Um uh, in in Papua New Guinea and also in French Polynesia and then from the 18 twenties on they went to the Cook Islands. They went to Samoa [00:27:30] and right through the rest of the Pacific, closely followed by the missionaries from the Roman Catholic Church. These Pacific territories all had their own religious and spiritual followings prior to the development of colonisation and the bringing of Christianity. Right? So this is why. And it's just that in the Pacific, um, [00:28:00] there's AAA large respect for the church, um, people in especially the Polynesian countries. Um most people, um, follow the Christian thing of going to church at least once a day on a Sunday and respecting things of other than essential work. No loud music, no fishing, no swim, and so on. Although that doesn't apply to tourists. So this does have the effect. And ministers will justify [00:28:30] the fact of, um, homosexuality or same sex marriage as being contrary to the teachings in the Bible. Because I've had this discussion with both a Samoan minister and also a minister, so their teachings are based on the Bible. Now, I'm not being judgmental about it, but I'm just saying so this is one of the major factors in terms of a culture as to why these laws are there. [00:29:00] OK, let's just does anybody want to make a comment on this? Because I wanna make this with any of the I would like to ask a question. Um, I read a lot, uh, about the African region that, um, because of the western country are moving towards marriage equality or, uh, same union at least, um, the African region. There seems to be a backlash of, uh, countries that instead announce even [00:29:30] stronger punishment for for same sex behaviour in in Africa. And starting from this to ask you that that research and look at the Pacific Island can you find a similar partner or, um not not at all, Because the Pacific what is is is rather unique because this is where the London Missionary Society, and also from the UK came now, in terms of Africa. [00:30:00] I'm not I haven't really made any study, um, of that there. But I do know that in the case of Somalia in Nigeria, um, their laws are are based on on on on the Muslim faith, you know? So, yeah, so there is It is a degree of aspect coming in there with Africa, but I'd rather not comment on Africa because I haven't really studied it. How would any of the people from the Pacific like to substantiate [00:30:30] what I've said or challenge what I've said in terms of colonisation, missionary influence, the power of the church in terms of the the culture. So you can't really challenge it because it is a fact. Do you think you want to challenge What? No, no, no. I mean, you're You're absolutely right. It is a fact of life. But, um, what's more dangerous for us [00:31:00] is, um, because we live the lived experience of LGBT communities within the Pacific context is that we before all this church and everything came to our country, we had our or foundation of. We were a part of our culture, right? So we we hide behind that, um, against the onslaught of Christianity and I'll, I'll give you an example. Um [00:31:30] um are are deeply entrenched into the extended family in Samoa. You find that in the rural communities in the city communities, they're very much a part of the extended family. They go to work, they provide, they produce, they assist financially. So they're very much a part of the community. So when the So when the church the these church Expecta expectations are forced on, the culture states that we are a part [00:32:00] of a community and it is the community that allocates to us what rights we have. If you want to be a woman, you can act as a woman and stay home in your in your and look after the elderly, cook for the elderly and look after the Children. The Children. Exactly. If you wanna be if you wanna You wanna be a man, Great. Pick up a machete and let's go to the plantation and plant some. Tara, you know, for us, it's it's it is our community, which is the foundation of our history as as as [00:32:30] as LGBTI in the Pacific. That's that's what we rely on that cushion us from this. This all this this this, um, church bullshit. And I mean, no offence to Ken because I know Ken studying theology. But for me personally, I don't understand why one group of citizens in my country should tell me how to live because I in a different manner one of us, one of the sins that many people don't [00:33:00] know is working on Sunday. If we enforce working on Sunday, if we enforce working on Sundays, every Pacific nation that relies on tourism will shut down. You know, all those tourists that come in won't get their laundry done, won't get their room cleaned, won't get their food served, You know what I mean? And and and and there there in lies, the issue, because it's money, you know, it's all about money and and we don't earn any money. That's why we [00:33:30] we I know, I know. And And what you say applies in other territories. It certainly applies in the with the, uh and and and Tonga. And so it goes on. And thank you for sharing that because a lot of people have been brought up in a Western culture. Don't understand how colonisation I'm not being critical. I'm just being objective. And the impact of a church is a very powerful institution. [00:34:00] Um, which I don't think governments want to really take on too readily. All right, let's just sort of move on. And thanks for the comments that are shared. Now, this one here was shown before. So in terms of human rights, and I haven't forgotten about American Samoa, I've got a slide on that. Uh, this is bringing up something from YouTube. This is from the United [00:34:30] Nations. Free and easy, right? Comments on that. Yeah. Come in. So it tell me here's your chance to comment on. I think the the thing that stood out for me was [00:35:00] the thing that stood out for me with that, uh, YouTube video clip is the fact that a a variety of young people coming out stating their request for human rights. But I think the other thing that's significant is the minister from the Methodist Church in Fiji, and I'm right that the Methodist Church is has the biggest following Is that right in Fiji for people coming [00:35:30] out in support of human rights as well as that the secretary general of the United Nations? So there are some very positive things that are sort of happening. And the United Nations group, um free and easy. Um does have a fair bit of respect, but the way they seem to operate in the Pacific is in a fairly low key role. Doing things. Talking to the key ministers [00:36:00] in the various countries. Would anybody like to make any comment on It's It's not. I don't think it's a group. It's a it's a campaign. Uh, it was started probably 2014 by the then, uh, high Commissioner of the High. What's the name? High Commissioner of Human Rights. Uh, Napa. Now it changed, but at that time it was her. And, um so [00:36:30] it's not a media organisation. It's more, Um yeah, a campaign from the United Nation. And it was um it was really coming from the wave of all of the resolution of 2010 in all of the committee that raised in 2011, 2012 at the United Nations. So it's probably it's part of a bigger wave of LGBTI issue within the united [00:37:00] nation of the past except that free and is a centre of the United Nations that is specifically concerned with human rights. And it it has a focus specifically, you know, on the Pacific, Um, there is a second video, uh, clip too. Um, that I had, but that that which was shown before thank you for that. Any other comments right [00:37:30] now? I spoke before How the United Nations territories of Northern Marianas um Guam, um, fully complied. Um, the Marshall Islands, Uh uh, because of their constitutional connection to the USA, went first, weren't forced to comply with, um, the change of constitution [00:38:00] on, um, same sex marriage, which came in the USA. Now, this is the American situation. So in American Samoa, they undecided as to whether they comply with the 26 ruling. So it's now with the American, um, the American Samoa. They're not US citizens. And they are. This is the basis of their argument that they'll be having in the Supreme Court from what I've read, but they're rather nationals, and so they want the the Supreme Court [00:38:30] to to decide on that. Um, so other comments that I've read that have been published in the American Samoa papers call for just solutions based on love and respect for other people. But they certainly don't give it any endorsement towards moving towards same sex re, uh, unions or even same sex marriage. So let's see American Samoan position. So that apparently [00:39:00] comes up later this year. So if they lose the case, American Samoa, from what I've read, will be forced to comply it. Somebody brought up American Samoa. Does somebody want to add anything to what I've said? This may well change, um, after the elections by the government elections. Because at the moment, American Samoa has a Republican representative from Megan Samon, the Senate, and, [00:39:30] um, there the the Republican Party is very conservative, and so this may well change the next presidential election. It could well do. It could well do, except, you know, just in response to that the Supreme Court decision. Yeah, the the, um the the election. American elections are in November. I think this has been scheduled for August. So it'll be interesting to see if if it comes [00:40:00] through in August if American Samoa are going to go to expense, if they can appeal, So that's just, um, I, I think a fairly a fairly interesting one. So the reason why I actually showed that is to is to show that, um, with the church, as I've said before, is a very, very powerful group, Um, in terms of, [00:40:30] um, in some cases, hinging on the holding back of human rights on a lot of GL BT I issues. Right? Um, except where it's been thrust on the country by law change. Um, yeah, so I think that's interesting. Now there's one other comment I wanted to make. I've always been interested to know why in French Polynesia [00:41:00] as, uh, because I've been there six times in Tahiti. But Sundays are just like a Sunday here. They're not like a Sunday in the in the in the Pacific. So what actually happened was they were colonised by, uh, the London Missionary Society in the late 18th century. And what actually happened in the 18 sixties after, um, which was soon after France annexed, which is what they did, Um, took over, [00:41:30] um, Tahiti and French Polynesia. Within 20 years, they kicked the missionaries out. So, um, I, I can I can find nothing to support what I say. But my belief is that because the the missionaries ceased to exist in Tahiti and French Polynesia from 18 60 on, um, their respect and the numbers that are attending church have dropped considerably, and they don't follow the same values that [00:42:00] the rest of Polynesia does. Any comments, right? This year, this was just a small church that I took in the in, um, French Boones just over two years ago. Now, now this is is is is really interesting. Um, the theme of the 2015 Tonga Conference was our [00:42:30] voices, our communities, our rights, advancing human rights. Right. And that was the theme of the Of the Conference with the Pacific Diversity Group. It was reported in the Tonga Times that about 70 attended the comment of the the the conference which was being hosted. This is last year, remember? by the Pacific, um, sexual diversity network in Tonga right [00:43:00] now. Um, there were a number of people a small number of people, uh, Tongans, uh, who were gay activists who were concerned, as the people in Tonga were with the actual law change. So this upset some of the locals, and that is the banner that actually appeared quite derogatory, isn't it? [00:43:30] So that actually made Radio New Zealand news and and, uh, all all the, uh, all the rest of it. And I was quite amused when, um roger, uh, it is Roger the from To Pardon. Oh, Johnny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, made the positive comment about having a, um uh, you know, a meeting in Tonga next year to in in involve the the international group. [00:44:00] And, um, I sort of chuckle with afterwards and I said, Hey, you won't. I said you won't even get as well as this. You might even make the world news, you know, um, so we just had a laugh about it, but it's given them something to think about, but, um, I I've noticed even in Auckland, that when the same sex marriage came out, uh, the Tongan churches, and they have that right in New Zealand. As you know, uh, were very strong protesters. You know against [00:44:30] that when it came through in New Zealand a couple of years ago. Right. Let's just move on. Just one, one at church. Yes. That wasn't the general. No, no, no. It was just one church, and they came together as a group there. And, um, they must be delighted that they got this publicity because they stuck [00:45:00] it on you. They they Well, that actually appeared in the Tongan paper, I think. I. I saw it on the They did a lot of verbal abuse. They did. They had a lot of verbal abuse from the from the public. They did all the vehicles that if I had to to actually record the the words that came out of people's mouth Sure that two days, um, it's worse than what they're saying on the banner. [00:45:30] You know, it was when I talked to him, you know, because a lot of people were angry. Um, because most of the especially the game from our teams, because we you know, we help them a lot in a lot of their stuff and they were cussing them, cursing and throwing things. And I think [00:46:00] on the last day they got there in the morning and they didn't even last for about a an hour or two. Then they left because there was hardly anyone from their own church and ended up with six people only. They started with 12 12, and, um, yeah, it was less and less. But then some of them, some of their own people, they were standing, you know, [00:46:30] said, Oh, well, we might as well just go home. And because it was all are done by their own president of their church, you know? But, um, thank you for that. OK, Fiji. These are something I picked up very recent. Um, in January, you may have read about it. It it made the newspapers here. Um, Mr Bin Barama, the, uh, Fiji Prime Minister on his comments there. [00:47:00] I don't need to read it out. Do you have any comment to make on that? The PT perspective? Yeah. Yeah, you'd be aware of that. Our, um our listen to Fiji thinks it's quite a a very tragic statement, that sort of rubbish here. Well, [00:47:30] you know, out of the, uh um, the head of state Prime Minister's mouth. That's quite condemning. It certainly is. And you know, what I'm doing now is just showing a deflection of, um, different things that are actually happening right now. This is a cutting I cut out of a, um, GL BT paper. As it was called, [00:48:00] um, 1995 the former late Prime Minister, Sir Geoffrey Henry was interviewed by New Zealand by a gay newspaper M to M on the and laws on the rights of GL BT I people and in particular, the fact that homosexuality was illegal in the cooks as it still is. And he gave what he felt was an honest opinion. You can see it there. Any politician who attempts to change [00:48:30] the laws would be committing political suicide. Um, this is sort of a bit, but I just be really interested to hear from people where they actually having laws that are supportive of, um uh, LBG relationships are supportive. Uh, may have made a difference. Were you here when I discuss the territories that have made a difference and why I'm asking [00:49:00] for personal, I'm talking about this and then personal life because I I went to to, um And it seemed to me that it wasn't, um and and I'm I'm sorry. I'm not sure if this woman talking about it seems like it's the community. And you've just talked about the prime Minister, and I'm just interested in how much difference those with laws that are supported and those that are actually how how different it is for the people living there. OK, well, the comment on this was the reason [00:49:30] why I put it down is because it really incensed a lot of people in Fiji that particular comment, Uh, not only from, uh, this community, but also from the wider public. They were rather incensed about their comment. And that's why I showed it just to create this sort of awareness. Right? Um, any other comments, right. Let's move on. I just want to flash through some of these things Now Here's [00:50:00] a case very recently of a lesbian couple Cook Islanders living in New Zealand who are hoping to renew their vows on a Cook Island beach. Um, this was actually in November of last year, and they were forced to move it to another Beach. But unfortunately, the community wouldn't allow it. Right? [00:50:30] And this incensed a lot of people in the cooks because I actually I. I picked up the the snippet from Radio New Zealand International. Um, that was only last November. Hey, we're looking at three months ago, OK? And I was especially, um, surprised at that, and I'll show you the reason why because my own experience with my partner [00:51:00] who's sitting in the front there, um was very, very positive, and we felt that things were really starting to move. So this was, um, one of the people from the sexual diversity group who was actually, um, did a performance. OK, Now, um, I just want to just make reference to the promoting change from within the territory. I really believe that in addition to the Pacific [00:51:30] free and equal, um, that this the particular sexual diversity groups, um, are the greatest chance of getting change within their territory because all six of them are really positive and committed. The representatives of five of them, um, are actually here. One person who I do want to acknowledge who's not here. I've been in touch [00:52:00] with who is the secretary um, Valentino, Uh, win one. Valerie, better known heirs who was secretary of the Cook Island Sexual Diversity Group. Um, he has been awarded a Queen's Award by the Cook Island government for the work that he's been doing within his diversity group. And I think that that is really, really positive, [00:52:30] don't you? So he'll be going to the queen, and he was nominated by the government for the work that he's doing with the sexual diversity group. Right. So, um, this is what, um, all of these groups plan on doing is trying to extend the network of people into the Pacific. So I just want to go through and those who have representation here. Um, I would welcome the, uh, input in terms of what's [00:53:00] happening. Right? Um, cook islands, um, that was founded right back in 2007. Operated for about two or three years, Had a website, uh, went into recess. Um, and then, um, the secretary or I referred to before, revived it about two years ago. He's very positive, very active. A smart guy under 30 years of age 27 with a B A and A and a law [00:53:30] degree and holding a senior position within government. And, um, you know, he's really committed to getting those. These particular laws changed. Um, in the in the cook islands, Um, he had hoped to be here, but because of communication problems, it didn't happen, right? The Samoa Association. Would anybody like to add any other comments to the very positive things that the association is already doing? That hasn't been said [00:54:00] in this sector here. So the important thing that I've actually, um, picked up by talking to one people is that they you know, uh, it's not just the they're concerned with, but the other sexual, um, minority groups. All right. Mhm. So this is what they want to do. Their objectives. [00:54:30] Anyway, somebody from some I like to make any other comments on what they're doing, OK, and their very presence here. The thing is, five of the territories are represented here. Uh, the 61 Cook islands. Um, yeah, but because communication breakdown, he wasn't able to make it. But II, I get the feeling that a very, very strong, homogeneous group all working for the same thing about trying to get [00:55:00] change within the particular territory right to that. OK, It's called the Tonga uh association, and, um, they have a similar objective. Now, some of these, um, sexual diversity groups, in addition to doing what they're doing, it's also been they've also taken on the role. The role of promoting safe sex, right, which I think is, [00:55:30] um is is is is is really important. Uh, anybody you want to pass? Any comments, ask on Tonga, right? Fiji, That's called the Fiji Pride Association. Um, I've got a few notes here. Advocates. So a similar thing, Um, advocating for human rights. Um, sexual orientation. And so Alright, [00:56:00] any comments? Fiji. But you want to add to the great work that that association is doing right? OK, onto, um onto PNG. So the kaal champions. Um, yeah. Um so, in addition to working in the same direction as the other Pacific groups are, they do have an important [00:56:30] role with promoting the same sex message. Just remember what I said earlier, that it has a huge population of 6. 6 million twice the size of New Zealand. Um and, uh, yeah, they they've got a, you know, a tough road ahead, but that right up there now, two. Now, any comments so far that you would like to ask? Right now, the next one [00:57:00] is what I think is important. The future, you know, and I believe that there's a very positive hope, you know, for the future. Um, coming with the changing of these laws, it takes a long time. New Zealand, Uh, their homosexuality law was passed 30 years ago. But the activists, um, [00:57:30] I understand, had been going for more than 30 years before that to get to that, so it's not gonna happen immediately. So, you know, I, I really believe that the the the the excellent work that the the Pacific Sexual Diversity Group is making. Um, so I think there's two sectors to it. The Pacific, um, diversity, Uh, uh, group in the territory, plus [00:58:00] the United Nations Group. But there is a third one, which I admitted which, um and that is the Pacific Islands Forum. Um, that is a meeting that's been going on for many years, every year for about the last. Uh, yeah. For many years, it used to be very much dominated by New Zealand and Australia. And, um um, you know, one of the positive things about it was, Fiji pointed out that it's not about Australia and New Zealand. It's about the Pacific, [00:58:30] you know? And I did bring up in a forum earlier on and and just suggested that that was a very useful way, um, for the Pacific Destiny group to work because I'd actually worked with, um on that with an educational issue with some of the territories. Now, obviously, it's a fairly contentious issue this not all territories are going to do it, but I'd sort of suggested that that was something that would be a very powerful way [00:59:00] of getting the message through to the Pacific ministers is just a clear statement on human rights applying to GL BT i people. So those I think those three aspects that I've mentioned, I think the most likely to change the other aspect I just want to mention is that the, um, outside influence can sometimes [00:59:30] create a degree of negativity and the reason why I showed those those other slides here of, um, you know, to in that here we are. We had some well meaning gay activists who came over from Auckland, but it just was counterproductive and some Pacific territories tend to strongly resent overseas pressure, especially from Australia and New Zealand. You know, it's all [01:00:00] that's the comment that we want to make is that every country everybody is pushing us for homosexual law, reform, decriminalising homosexuality and marriage equality. Everybody's pushing and shouting and screaming and saying Yeah, yeah, you gotta do this. It's humanization mandated but not one, not one of those countries, not one of those organisations is actually coming to the Pacific and actually living with Pacific LGBTI people and seeing and documenting their lived experience. [01:00:30] Because our lived experience in the Pacific completely different to this picture that's painted out as this. It's a haven and we're being persecuted on a daily basis and, you know, gutted and thrown in the in, the in the gutter. That's not what it is, and and and and and and before before they made determinations about about where we are in light of this and this is this goes to the United Nations and and and I've said this many times is the United Nations needs [01:01:00] to find a mechanism which measures the lived experience of of of indigenous and people in the Pacific right against find a way to introduce that Somebody find a way because you know what? These people are really smart. They're very smart people. They have a lot of letters next to their names and they should come to us and sort of say, OK, it's not just about the law of the land. It is about your customs and your cultures and and your lived experience. And we want to measure [01:01:30] how that has to have an impact. That's what we wanna see in the Pacific we don't want No, no, no. You know, fool coming to us and saying, Yeah, you need to legalise homosexuality. I'm like, Nigga, please, like, you know, we, we we we can do that ourselves. And everybody has, like, the thing is, every all our families know what we do underneath the cocoa trees are in the dark. They all know that. But they pay. They pay no attention to that because they know in the morning we get up and we perform. We perform for our families and our communities. [01:02:00] And that's that's that's a lived experience that people need to understand. And and, uh, I'm glad you reinforced that because the very point that I made is that external influence other than from the way the United Nations free and easy group is likely to be counterproductive. But it's got to come from within. We agree on. It's got to come from from the Pacific Sexual Diversity Group, like in the case of Samoa, [01:02:30] the group group and and so on, right? So it's got to come from within. And I think the other thing we need to acknowledge is that the lifestyle in spite of these laws goes on and people are not really harassed in the majority. You know, if we if we get harassed and one of our members actually gets executed and dragged and and and killed the whole world will know about [01:03:00] it like you know, LGBTI communities in the Pacific, they'll get on the coconut whaler, they'll ring. CNN and Fox News will be down there in a G and everybody will have their lipstick and their and their big head dresses on and say, Oh my God, they dragged us in the middle of the night and they killed us. You know what I mean? Like, that's what we do. But I I think from on a positive not. Please, please. If you want to know about the Pacific, come to us. Come to the Pacific, get on a plane and and use some of your funding. You're never ever any funding to [01:03:30] come in and and sit with us, and we'll show you how we live in the Pacific under the you know, the spices of these apparently dark days of, you know, homosexual, powerful message. And keep saying that to any other comments. Can I just like, First of all, I wanna apologise if I was Hey, look, I invited comments [01:04:00] before, and you know, we've spoken, and you have AAA strong passion for, um, your culture and a great deal of respect for it. And, um, thanks very much indeed. For the input that you've you've done OK, Can I answer something of what you said? Um, I think that of course I cannot say anything about, um, Pacifica. I cannot say much about [01:04:30] Pacific time. It's whether we listen to it or not that No, no, it's the fact that I don't know, this is what I say, but, um, about the United Nation, I think they as much as they are having all of this new resolutions and all of this debate is growing and it's blooming now. They are very much, far, far behind on LGBT issues. And the problem with the United Nations is that they [01:05:00] only understand the law, and sometimes they have problems going behind that. And as much as, uh, your, uh, your point about, um, debate and everything, it's probably it's difficult to make it to be understood by international organisations like the United Nations. It's something that needs first to be understood within the transnational advocacy, probably, and [01:05:30] with the partners that, um, Samoan or Pacific Islanders have in the international arena before the United Nations because it will never come from them. In my opinion, I agree. I agree it's something that needs to be driven by us, but they're going to have to listen because every four years 22 nations in the Pacific get reviewed in the U PR and 2022 22 times every four years, [01:06:00] we're going to go to the United Nations, and we're going to say honey lived experience over law of the land, you know? Come and see how we live in the Pacific, you know it's not. Yeah, I mean, you know, when you look at it from a legal perspective Oh, it's it's the It's the dark times it's Satan's, You know? It's like, Oh my God, it's like you know, everything is like, you know, illegal. Or but if you look at it from when you live on the ground and every day you wake up and you swallow the dust and you go and find food for your family, [01:06:30] it's not really that that that that important to us, our communities support us. And they say, Hey, I know, you know, just make sure you don't don't do it between church times or whatever, you know what I mean? Like, and that's the That's the understanding That's the community rights that that we and I like to speak from my heart experience and travel through separate Pacific territories, including Samoa, Fiji, China, French Polynesia, cook ISS and so on. But we've always been treated [01:07:00] with the utmost of respect, you know, and we've just taken part of of in the in the culture, attend a church, were appropriate and, um yeah, and like one of the one of the things that we need to also watch out for in the Pacific is our own people, our own L, GB, IG BT I people that live in in in overseas countries and then get on a plane and come home and they expect the freedoms that have been afforded to them in a western country to be the same. So they [01:07:30] wanna come in and and their wedding in Samoa, and then we turn around and say, Please, you know, and then they go, Oh, my God, it's fringing on my rights, my human rights. What about my human rights? You know, like me, Please, it's it's all it's all those sorts of things that we need to take into account. But at the end of the day, we we're all human beings, you know, waking up every morning, trying to make do with what our responsibilities are. And we just need to find the the the right, you know, environment. And [01:08:00] I'm telling you now that for us in Samoa and Tonga and you know, we we are very much entrenched in our communities and and those communities afford us the protection, that which you know which, which the United Nations and other monitoring organisations don't see. They don't see that. I thank you very much for your sincere comments, Any final comment from anybody else. So it can be said to be all Thank you very much indeed. [01:08:30] Um, I enjoy hearing.

IRN: 1031
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/a_refugee_among_refugees_proud_2016.html
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089716
TITLE: Eliana Rubashkyn - A Refugee Among Refugees - Proud 2016
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VOICES: Eliana Rubashkyn
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2000s; 2010s; Amnesty International; Aotearoa New Zealand; Brazil; China; Colombia; Eliana Rubashkyn; HIV / AIDS; Hong Kong; International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association (ILGA); Jack Byrne; Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (KSA); Mangere Refugee Resettlement Centre (Auckland); Mani Bruce Mitchell; Organization for Refuge, Asylum and Migration (ORAM); Proud 2016 (Wellington); Rainbow of Hong Kong; Refugee Convention (1951); Russia; South Africa; Taiwan; The Holocaust; Uganda; United Nations; University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine; Wellington; World War 2; Zambia; abuse; airport; assault; asylum; asylum seeker; bathrooms; binding; chest binder; cross dressing; dignity; escape; face; facebook. com; family; gender; gender identity; gender nonconforming; growing up; hair; health; health care; homelessness; hormone blockers; identity; identity documents; intersex; lesbian; medications; non-binary; normalisation surgery; passport; penile plethysmography; persecution; prison; prisoners; privilege; puberty; racism; rainbow refugee; rape; refugee; refugee camp; scholarship; sex work; sexual abuse; sexual nonconformity; social cleansing; statelessness; study; suicide; trans; transgender; transition; transphobia; university; violence; voice; vulnerability
DATE: 11 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine, Mein Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Eliana's case attracted international media attention after she was detained at Hong Kong International Airport's immigration facility for over 8-months as her appearance did not match her passport. She was eventually granted refugee status and, after enduring many hardships, was resettled in Aotearoa New Zealand.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: OK, Um, I just, um So some people might know my name? Um, iana Rubashkin formerly ruins, uh, just recently married. And so rest, you know, briefly, I just would like, um to speak a little bit about my experience, not from a victim point of view, because I'm tired of it. But from a perspective that can be help can be of your help. Uh, when helping [00:00:30] refugees. There is a way for refugees that will start coming to New Zealand and a big wave of rainbow refugees that we need to start learning how to help because it's, uh it's something new in the narrative or the LGBTI movement. New Zealand is seen as a country where we can be ourselves. So it's a country where rainbow communities will be targeting in their seeking for a better life. So we need to know how to help them, because it's much that's been achieved until today for LGBTI [00:01:00] S in New Zealand. And all these people come with the problems that we were facing here 30 or 40 years ago, just starting to be in this country, and there is many challenges that need to be exposed. So I'm going to speak, uh, in a perspective of as a former refugee that's experienced what's happening through the system, how you can help every refugee that is being resettled in New Zealand and how to help Not just people here, but people overseas people that ask or approach you in a way to, you know, asking [00:01:30] for support and you understanding how the ways of getting you know, the refugee status and all these very complicated and very difficult ways to be recognised as a refugee. And then this process of being resettled to another country. So I'm going to put the light a little bit down because I don't think this. So I first started, uh, my presentation, I. I like it to to put an orc on archive. Uh, because, [00:02:00] um, first, the orchid is a very fragile flower. It's a flower that needs to be protected to keep its beauty, uh, or is also biologically speaking like an intersex, having both male and female Gammas. So just by understanding that our nature offers this sort of diversity and we humans, we are being affected by the stereotypes or the [00:02:30] narrative of this, you know, normalisation in this sex orientation, gender identity, gender expression and the sex characteristics in in one way that many of many people in this world feel not safe in who they are. So OK, yeah. So I'm going to um So I wanted to put this picture because I feel it represents who I am as a intersex woman. [00:03:00] And it represents how fragile I was at a point in my life and how I'm now in New Zealand being beautiful, being proud and enjoying this beautiful chance of having a life as a normal person without fear, without with full dignity and enjoying just my existence. OK, Not many people like me have this opportunity. And that's for those people. I'm going to speak for those people [00:03:30] I'm going to speak today, So I'm going to focus in four general topics. Um, the situation, the general situation of sexual and gender nonconforming individuals. So I'm going to use the terminology SGM OK, that is general, and including also intersex people that we've been discussing as a part of a sexual nonconforming [00:04:00] individuals. Then how we help refugees and how we help the assessment teams that assess the refugee status protection in the field, which is how we help refugees in the countries of transition and how we help them in our communities. OK, so first I want to explain and give a short story of my life. I was born in Colombia. I was raised and assigned as a boy. [00:04:30] I was assigned male at birth because my intersex condition, uh, isn't visible at birth. So I just have I just have developed like a male genitalia. That was just enough for my family to label me as a boy. So that way I was raised. Uh, I always to feel that I was not that person they were trying to force to be. And in my adolescence, uh, things started to be difficult in my puberty. [00:05:00] That happened didn't happen correctly. I never was able to fully develop my genitalia as a man and even the hair my body never grew the way it should be like supposed to be in a man. And for that I was feeling that the gender that I was forced to conform was not I was not feeling comfortable in that gender. When I was 18 years old, I my breast started to to be very prominent and, uh, my [00:05:30] body starting to take a very female shape. And I was understood what? Why? Why that thing was going on then? Uh, my mom took me to a doctor. They made some, uh, hormonal profiles, and I have a hormones, you know, in a very, uh, the my hormone was just crazy. I had the product product levels, like, three times higher than a woman, and then I have all my hormone profile was completely messed up. And then my mom is starting [00:06:00] to to see that I have a hormonal problem that might be explaining why I never had a girlfriend, a boyfriend or why I never had a chance to to really, uh, develop, uh a strong, uh, identity as a person because I can I I all my my my time like my adolescent was just more about conforming, but not really being because I never was a boy. I. I knew I couldn't conform. In that sense, I never developed a strong voice. I always had a very delicate voice. So even when I have some bird and some [00:06:30] facial hair, I it was a little bit funny to see someone like look like a boy, then having a bird and then trying to conform as a boy and then all these kind of challenging, binary things. OK, I starting to cross dress and because I have a very masculine appearance, Uh, I was targeted as a trans person and being targeted as a trans person when you come out in Colombia, which is a country with a very difficult social situation nowadays, [00:07:00] uh, it was a very difficult thing for me. I was subjected to social cleaning groups that still acting in Colombia, and those social cleaning groups attack me several times in my back to me and other trump friends, and and I still have those scars in my I thought that was and it's something that we all need [00:07:30] to understand is that so? I have PTSD and I was in my back, and I was unable to access to proper health care because I didn't want to come out to my family as someone who didn't I have to do. It's a very dangerous situation, [00:08:00] the you know, and so we're speaking on behalf of that person and and I understood that my place is not a place for me to be in any sense because my family didn't understood my community didn't understood which trans persons were completely targeted. My country alone holds 20% of the general murder rate of trans women in the world. And even though I was not a trans woman, I was representing something that they hate [00:08:30] because I don't conform in what they believe. That should be a man of a woman. I really hated what my family did to me because they didn't never give me the chance to serve deter. They have a determination of my body. And until today I don't speak to them and no one in my family because they still still keep the point that I was raised a boy. And no matter if I have kids, if I have, if I have X and X chromosomes, I should [00:09:00] be a boy because that's the way I was educated. So I decided to skip. It was so much suffering for me so many times, so many suicide attempts. And then I decided to to escape from all these world suffering and stress and feeling completely alone, isolated when my breast started to grow, my mom forced me to bind my breast. The doctors told my mom to put me there so I can show a more conforming [00:09:30] body to my male identity. And I was I was proud of my breasts. I wanted to show my breast because I I do. I'm not ashamed of these ones. Many Trans people are paying thousands of dollars to have what I have. Naturally. Why? I need to be ashamed of that then. So, I, I got a scholarship to go to Taiwan and I went to Taiwan. It could be Denmark. It could be South Africa. But it was Taiwan because people often ask me why Taiwan? I got [00:10:00] a scholarship to go to Taiwan, and it was a perfect excuse for me to escape from all this and be finally able to to accept who I am. So I went to Taiwan and everything was perfect for me because finally, I could bring the stupid viols. And I can be able finally to show my body how it how it was my body. And I was finally proud to show my corpse and able to remove my birth and able to [00:10:30] to start to conform to my gender, but I felt comfortable. Taiwan has an amazing health system, and it is a country that respects the spectrum of identities of a person. It's the most tolerant country in Asia, So I did a good decision and I didn't really knew too much at that time. When I went to Taiwan, I didn't have much knowledge of Taiwan. So I was able to see doctors. And I see three gynaecologists, one endocrinologist, everything completely for free. [00:11:00] Because Taiwan has an amazing health system. They saw me. They understood my condition. They analysed my cognition. And finally, for the first time ever in my life, I understood my condition called of a test for the six for the six. Why, which basically is calling the ancient books of of medicine as true Afro or they started because I wanted to transition and because of my condition, I didn't have to have a psych a psychiatric [00:11:30] assessment. So I have transitioned right away, which was for me helpful but a bit like many Trans people in Taiwan at that time were suffering for waiting months and months to have this this chance to have transition, I didn't have to wait up because I had this little biological, uh, advantage. So they give me an education. Thank you so much. They gave me a medication called, which is it's [00:12:00] a DNA Rh blocker, which actually stops the if the follicle stolon hormone, which is a hormone that is like the mum of the male and female hormones, with the intention of making my body completely blank in hormones be completely as sexual, I would say or non like having a blank gender. So then I put you to start hormone replacement therapy of like hormones [00:12:30] for female hormones which were not present in me. It took me only three months to changed completely my opinions and in six months, my appearance, including my face, the shape of my eyes, the cheeks, my face, my body, even my voice change in a way that the person I was didn't [00:13:00] exist anymore. And my passport wasn't able to compute my identity. So I became illegal. I became a liberal. I was studying. I was outstanding. I was doing my master in Taiwan Medical University. I was about to finish my my thesis. I was very happy. Finally I was who I like the person who I was and this I would say transition was making me very happy. I didn't imagine that My change [00:13:30] is going to be so dramatic, Like like I can show pictures of me being before and pictures of me now and they don't even look. I don't even look like like a brother of myself, because we look really like two different individuals. And this is because of my intersex condition. So everything was fine until I got a, uh, a letter from the immigration services in Taiwan. They told me, uh, Ileana, we cannot renew your second year about your scholarship [00:14:00] for your programme because according with the Taiwanese law, you don't exist as a person because you don't compute with your passport. Your passport doesn't identify you anymore. As a person, they were kind. And they say to me, you need to approach your embassy or your consulate of your or your country. And Taiwan is not recognised as a country by my country because the the problem with China, the two Chinas and Taiwan being the little China, that no one cares [00:14:30] because we care about the big china. So I was very happy in Taiwan because I was finally able to born I. I was born in Taiwan and everybody all the time. When somebody asked me, Were you born? I always feel this need to say I was born in in Taiwan and I don't use anymore my birthday like my biological birthday as a day of of celebration. I use my birthday in Taiwan as my real birthday, which is 20th of [00:15:00] February, because I I'm tired of my past because there was too much suffering that came to me just by being born that I want to forget everything that's about my past. And that's why I celebrate a different birthday because I just don't want to know about the person I was before. The authorities told me to go to the closest Colombian consulate being that one in Hong Kong. So I was in a political situation [00:15:30] of going from one country that is not a country to another country. That is not even a country that belongs to a big country called China. And I was like going to two different worlds, even though the same culture, not same but the similar spectrum you know, China in general speaking when I arrived to the airport, everything, everything started, all the difficulties that I was experienced and that many Trans people went to travel in air face [00:16:00] and many people that they don't have confirming identities face when they are in the airport. I was detained in the in the airport in once I landed, I came for only two days. I was with my intention of travelling for two days and then continue. My master, I approached my embassy many times before travelling to Hong Kong I because I I was feeling in a very vulnerable situation because I didn't have a record of my transition. And and by having this specific intersex condition, I didn't [00:16:30] have the way to explain why I changed so much. Not surgical interventions. No, nothing was changing my opinion so much So when I when I was in the airport, I was detained and I was then detained in the section of the airport for holding false documentation. And being in Colombia was not helping helping much because they were thinking I was doing trafficking and sex drugs and or [00:17:00] I was coming to Taiwan for sex work because they were understanding that I was a trans or something like that because I was a man in my passport. Now I look like a woman, but I just don't look like a woman. I conform to the idea of a woman because I have feminine boys. I have feminine body. I have everything feminine and they just couldn't understand. How could I be that person Just a few months ago, they detain me and following the instructions, they placed me in detention centre with other men in. And I was then [00:17:30] assaulted for two officers from the Chinese government. I was sexually abused nine hours after, and then I was sent to a prison in a malaria of prison and I was abused and mistreated and arrested. And I was really they didn't even allow me to use the toilet when I was in the airport. I have I didn't have the chance to use the toilet and they were forcing me to use the toilet in front of all the the persons that were in the detention room. [00:18:00] And I was so humiliating that I didn't want to do that IP myself just not to let them destroy my dignity in that prison. I was lucky enough that I have battery in the second phone that I was because I had two phones and the second phone was able to connect to Roman International of Taiwan in Hong Kong. So I sent a message in In Tweet in Facebook and one of my friends, Cindy [00:18:30] Mo, which I was following my transition in Taiwan that is, from Singapore. But she was living in Hong Kong at that time. She knew I was coming to Hong Kong for this, and she saw that I didn't report myself after landing in Hong Kong after like one day, and that she started to panic. And she contact Rainbow of Hong Kong, which is an organisation in Hong Kong that helps LGBT people in all the senses they call Amnesty International. [00:19:00] They went to the airport. They fight in a very, very strong way because they knew that something terrible was happening with me and they took me out of the airport. But I was I left the airport without a passport and my passport. At this stage of my life, I don't know what is. My passport was destroyed. I was about to be deported and what means deported is being sent from Hong Kong to Colombia now. As a person, I am a vulnerable person after being in [00:19:30] transition, going back as a person who I am. I didn't want that to happen and I wanted to keep my dignity with me. So I refused to be sent to port to Colombia. I had the dream to finish my master in Taiwan. So I stay and I say No way. I'm not going to leave. I'm going to let them win so easy. So I started to stay in Hong Kong and starting to fight a battle against the Hong Kong system. So it's starting all the process of asking for support, [00:20:00] different organisations and a international being one of the one of the ones that really support me a lot and then rainbow of Hong Kong. That is a very powerful organisation, that I have all my respect because they give me old protection that no one else was able to give me. They offered me shelter when they could, and then one, I started the process of being a refugee. I visit the United Nations High Commission for Refugees, My refugee case [00:20:30] was so strong, so evident and so easy to assess that I got my refugee status in 15 days. Something that takes five years for many refugees took me 15 days and then I became a refugee under the international law and I became stateless. I lost my country. My country need never support me, and at that time my country was unable to recognise my identity and my gender. That is actually not doing it, but it wasn't possible before [00:21:00] so being then in Hong Kong, after being born who I want and then being struggling in Hong Kong again, let's say, being in a again in this situation of uncertainty or what what to do now with my life and this uncertainty of being a refugee, that is super difficult, that nobody can even imagine [00:21:30] what is being a refugee and and what is being a refugee. When you were never expecting that, I didn't understood what was refugee. Just when the day the same day I became more one, not like many other refugees that they seek for that they run to their countries. For that, I was one day expecting to know Hong Kong just to travel a few places and leaving the next day. And then that day I became a refugee. [00:22:00] The United Nations were very helpful with me. They were in a very specific case. It was the second time. It was the second time they were assessing a case of a refuge of a trans person at the time a trans a trans person in in Hong Kong being the first one, a Mongolian woman that is now resettled in Amsterdam. And for me it was quite shocking to see that I'm always [00:22:30] everywhere I go. I'm the the first or the one on the first ones. When I find out that we Trans people being the most vulnerable segments of society. Then I understood that I was privileged because I was an educated person that was able to win a scholarship, to go to Taiwan, to escape from my country, to have the kind of financial means to to seek asylum, because many of my transport in Colombia, they have to eat all the shit of being there, and they just can't They don't have the financial means to just to even to move out of the cities, [00:23:00] so being in Taiwan in Hong Kong, then the United Nations starts all the process that I'm going to speak in the in the section of protection in the field. They sent me to a refugee camp in and everything the the difficult part of, of all the story, just it started because this is the actual tough times of my life. The previous part has been a little [00:23:30] introduction to what the difficult thing of mine. Living in a refugee camp is not an easy thing when you are so different and when you are so vulnerable. That's why this presentation is called a refugee among refugees. The being in a refugee camp is a very difficult thing, especially for LGBTI refugees. Even more when more of refugees are people coming from [00:24:00] countries where our identities are not accepted, but not just not accepted or hate it. In countries where their values are, their education levels and many other things are not actually compatible with your own existence. I don't know why the some refugee camps are so stupid to divide the population of the refugees between [00:24:30] males and females. I couldn't fit in any of them. I couldn't be in there houses for boys or in the houses of women. We all have to share toilets. And how can I take a shower in front of Muslim womens or in the other sense, you know, in the other in the other way. So they they decided that the best place for me was part of yuan long, close to [00:25:00] in a shipping container. So I was living over six months in a shipping container. And what the purchase Kong has very hot temperatures, very humid temperatures. And I remember waking up with cockroaches as being part of my every day and getting so used to that, you know, like you open a piece of bag of bread and cockroaches [00:25:30] going on and and things that I would never used to because I, I have a privileged life in my country. I had a privileged life in my country. OK, my mom, we had a privileged life. And then I understood what's not being privileged. You know these days that you don't have nothing. You don't have a citizenship. You don't have family. You don't even have a profession after you being pharmacist. Then you ended up being homeless with nothing. And you didn't do nothing [00:26:00] wrong because I didn't commit a crime. That's and then and then living in this in this container. And then I was able sometimes to have Internet. I usually had enough money in the beginning of my journey to go to Rainbow of Hong Kong and stay some days there I was sleeping in the HIV testing room that they have because they have a very little place. Like I must say, like [00:26:30] this place where everybody sleeps on the floor. Most of LGBTI homeless Hong Kong, most of them half of them being from China, mainland China they were living in. You can go right out there and you will find LGBTI S homeless, sleeping all over the place like this. Maybe 40 persons and I was in the corner and they were so nice people that they just make, like, a little room for Eliana because I was the only trans living in that environment. [00:27:00] They were understanding that we not we have privacy needs, you know, because they were even sleeping naked. They didn't mind about nothing, you know, they were in, like in a in a and then they they let me sleep in the HIV testing room because being a more private place for me to be there. So I sleep, I think, three months in the HIV testing room of the rainbow in I don't know if somebody's been in Hong Kong in [00:27:30] Kowloon. So I even remember exactly have you been in in Jordan Street, Jordan. They are in Jordan, between Road and Jordan Road, Seventh floor two by two road and they have a beautiful. You just need to look up in the windows and see all the beautiful rainbows that they put in the in the seventh floor where they are. They are staying that it is a place for all LGBTI to sleep there. And it's a beautiful thing that we I would like to see in New Zealand, [00:28:00] a place where all LGBTI homeless can just come to sleep because they don't have a place where to sleep, and they just cannot go to a normal shelter because we cannot go to a normal shelter. We need people like us that is able to understand our needs. So this journey, being a refugee, I don't want to tell experiences of being in a refugee camp because there are so difficult things happening there. So many assaults and even so many attacks that happened. I have scars and all my body [00:28:30] of many things and and things that just, um yeah, in the refugee camps, you find people being raped. You find women being beaten. And even here in New Zealand, in the refugee camp, you can see these things happening because refugees come with their minds, the mindsets, even to New Zealand. I remember being here in, and I remember seeing a family [00:29:00] where the the brother was beating her sister for not wearing a hijab beating in front of all the refugees. And we've been completely unable to to to to help and these refugees being in a process of understanding the culture of this country, that this is not OK and all these difficult things that I think we need to learn about Do we need to learn about them as [00:29:30] well as they need to learn about us and how we can coordinate the support of those who help refugees to have awareness of the LGBT issues. So then, Jack, I mean, I met Jack being in this container, I was able to contact him to different trans organisations that were aware of my case. I starting to be told that New Zealand was a place for me. I was forced to have a normalisation surgery [00:30:00] to to fit in a FNM in a passport to come in here which was happening with other countries. So I was able to travel to New Zealand. I didn't choose this country was the United Nations who taught this country to be a place for me. So I was The United Nations were told that to show New Zealand to be a place and we just wanted to speed out my situation. I just wanted to speed out to come here. And that's why offer a great help because Jack help to vi my case, um, into the [00:30:30] immigration team that assist refugees. And and I was I came in a very unusual path for Colombian refugees because Colombian refugees come from Ecuador. They don't come from Hong Kong. Yeah, because there is many Colombian refugees in New Zealand. It's over 100 and 40 every year. And I was a very unusual refugee coming from Hong Kong, So er so that was something that that really changed many ways. [00:31:00] And so now I want to quickly sorry for taking so long just to speak about how can you help people like me in situations like me or L GB a refugees. OK, sorry for crying. I'm very sensitive. OK, So as I was mentioning first, um, there is that we need to understand because they they they can be sometimes, um confused. And and and it's OK [00:31:30] like what is a refugee? What is an as asylum as as or or an asylum seeker and and just understand these definitions are important because being a refugee is the end of the process. And not not all people can get to that point who will be being recognised as a refugee? Uh, many asylum seekers are people that are looking for getting that status. Many organisations call them refugees while they are not being officially granted the refugee [00:32:00] status. Sorry, uh, four definition and this is a definition that was created after the World War two because the concept of being a refugee and being resettled to another country where are settled in the convention relating to refugees of 1951. That was after the Holocaust and what happens in Europe that we decided to create like a a frame, to understand how [00:32:30] to how to help people, that is being forced, forced migration to one country to another. So refugees have to flee to another country to be granted the refugee status or to be considered an asylum. Yes, and few of these ones in transition are resettled. So I want to show a very dramatic picture of the the situation in, In in, in terms of LGBTI as like me is the ones [00:33:00] that were former refugees and now living a happy life in a country of you know, that they are enjoying a life finally and asylum seekers are the ones that are still waiting for their status to be recognised. So this is one definition that I correct from the or or is an organisation that works specifically, uh towards LGBTI refugees helping other organisations to, uh, be aware of [00:33:30] how to help LGBTI refugees, including the United Nations, the UN HCR and the High Commission for Human Rights. So they say that what is what is SGN, which is sexual and gender nonconforming individuals, those persons whose sexual practises, sexual characteristics, attractions or gender expression are different for social expectations based on their assigned sex at birth. So based on that [00:34:00] we have this map that is a little bit cut because it's not Russia there, and New Zealand is always ignoring the map. So it's OK. So I don't know if you can see the colours, but we can see uh, countries where same sex marriage and certain practises are are are are they led you to have a death penalty countries where there are other criminalization for being LGBTI. I will say L [00:34:30] GB because being trans in the Intersect issues, they have many other cultural understandings that can be more difficult or sometimes understanding, like being trans in Iran is OK, but OK in a very terrible way because they forced you to have a surgery and to conform to one gender or another. Then prevalent and punished abuse by state and non state actors and mainly, focus Colombia, Brazil, Many countries in Central America, especially Honduras, [00:35:00] where especially in those countries, trans women are targeted being known that 80% of the murders of transgender women that were happening alone in Latin America especially in Brazil. So this is things that we need to understand because sometimes when we speak about the violence of LGBTI issues, we just focus on Uganda in the Russia in the in. Um so you know, in the Arab countries that we don't understand that most [00:35:30] of the more LGBTI related murders are happening in countries that we think to be colourful and to be respected for all these things. And it's not true. OK, So as we can see a few countries there, um, like, for instance, South Africa, it's it was one of the first countries in the world to recognise same sex marriage. Still many people is murder there for being LGBTI, you know, including other factors, as those countries are naturally [00:36:00] violent. So it's just violence being something cultural, and then those vulnerable ones being more vulnerable for being who they are. So this is a very sad picture of the situation of this the people LGBTI people. Um it is understood that there is about 175 million of sex and gender non conforming individuals in the world living in [00:36:30] places where where where they are challenged or in persecution, which is about 5% of the world population is actually half of the LGBT population live in countries where their condition, it's it's it's not accepted in a very terrible way. From this 175 million, 100 and 75,000 have a sexual orientation, gender identity that is perceived or known. So it's like [00:37:00] people that have a sexual orientation that is known for the community or, uh, expression that is understood and is not actually matching with what a person should be conforming with the sex of birth. 104,000 of these 175 have been harmed, threatened in the countries of origin, being 80% of those with the ones I mentioned before, which is showing that 80% of the people were whose sexual orientation is known is being attacked in some stage in their lives. [00:37:30] Half of them escape from their countries to to transit or asylum countries like how come? But I didn't really escape. I was I was in a different situation, so it's people like I don't know, people that go to another country just to to find more safety. Many LGBTI people just go from one city to another city to find more kind of enjoying this chance of being not known [00:38:00] or something like that, and only 20,000 know or understand or get help to apply for their refugee status as an asylum seeker and to seek protection from the High Commission for the High Commission for Refugees. Only 10,000 are resettled every year in the world. This figure is a 2015 1 because in the 2011 1, only 200 refugees were accepted [00:38:30] to be presented in other countries. So it was. It's very sad to see how few refugees are accepted as refugees when we are easily seen as the most vulnerable segment of the society and that can show how sad is the situation. That's why I was telling at the conference that New Zealand that is been fighting for increasing the refugee quota, should also fight for allocating a specific number of seats for LGBTI [00:39:00] refugees in a proportion of a 5% of the population that has been facing harm. Because we are I, I am the only gender refugee in this country and I don't think that's really like reflecting a reality that's in in the world. And then it's so so we know all this. We know all of this, so I don't want to go in deep. But many countries don't actually, [00:39:30] um, persecute gay people based on laws on religion, but also on, like, Russia, where being gay is OK according to the law. But it's not too much being according to the propaganda and stuff like that, or we can see many. Actually, this map is from, and it's very updated, so that's why I wanted to bring it out. Um, in this map, intersex rights and gender identity laws are not included because it's another segment of understanding how open is the world, because [00:40:00] we might find countries where the the sex marriages are accepted. But being, uh, being trans is very difficult, if another one like Sweden or Finland, where there's no gender identity recognition just but through surgery. Many countries, even in Europe, have still this problem, so it's like forced mutilation just to be recognising the gender that you feel you are even in very developed countries. So now when when we want to help refugees, we need to understand [00:40:30] that there are governing documents that are outlining all the things that all the definitions and stuff that need to help refugees being the most important one. The 1951 convention of the the the Convention of the Refugees and the 9 90 sixties Protocol. Then there is other things that we need to to to know that every country has its own national laws. Every country knows how many people will accept them from which categories. New Zealand has a specific categories, including [00:41:00] women in risk or persons with disabilities and things like that. That's why I was suggesting that LGBTI being included as one of those categories. Then we have a recent UN HCR guideline, the number nine for protection of sexual orientation and gender identity. It was just two years ago, and then they need to go in codes of conduct. So this is the refugee process is very terrible. I will share with you my slides [00:41:30] so you can see that, like when you ask a claim, if you are eligible, If you are not ineligible, then you need to go to like a port of entries, like going to another country. Uh, then when you go to a country where they accept your case, and then you go to claim a refugee status and you submit all the documents. You have a hearing with the the the the person in the United Nations. They listen to your case, they accept your claim and they appeal your case to the refugee [00:42:00] appeal division. And then they start all the process of resettlement and things like that. It's a very difficult process that I don't even understand very well. And then So what is important for us as as as activist is the sensation sensitization about refugees is, uh, teaching people. What What is gender teaching people of what is gender identity, gender expression, biological sex, sexual orientation? Uh, and let them understand that those stereotypes that we are, uh, that we usually [00:42:30] try to define for certain LGBTI are not always conforming the reality of a person. So if you are lesbian, er you don't need to be patchy or you are gay. You don't need to be feminine. Or if you are trans, you need to be flamboyant or all these kind of stereotypes that usually the UN HCR cases seek as a way to prove your your condition or your sex orientation or your identity. So this very interesting gender unicorn [00:43:00] that explains all the different ways that how can they play in different aspects of a person the gender identity, expression, the sex the person was assigned at birth, how the person or kind of sexual attraction this person has and how this person is romantically or emotionally attracted to others. All these things are understood by all of us, but are not understood by UN H ER in and things that help refugees to get their refugee status. [00:43:30] They don't understand that. How come if you are bisexual to choose one side and don't be persecuted and then so or things like that, you know, like like ignorance from them. So one everything starts when they're starting to understand every country. What is the problems in every country? How this country and all these reports coming from I the only er so far organisation that the United Nations has as a as AAA credit organisation too. [00:44:00] Yeah, one of them. I think that to give information that it can be used as a way to to to place in the country for information. That is something that is being used to understand if you are really in risk or not, depending on which country you come from and then and then understanding, you know, like, um, like the how the person er get to how the person can get to these these groups, something that many LGBTI people when they are in a different country. When they go to the UN HCR, the first thing they are is [00:44:30] afraid of coming out to them and exposing all their truth to someone that don't even know what gender means or what sexual orientation is, or someone who is going to be judgmental. You know, we have. We have these people in different countries and people that is not being educated. So that's we have to do education. Then we need to seek for implementation to make that every organisation here, like in New Zealand, we have the Red Cross. So how we let the Red Cross know how, how [00:45:00] they have to access access, access, the the cases of refugees educated them like what we're doing here, learning like we can give them instructions of how to treat the refugee. What kind of sort of health concerns they have what kind of things they are worried about, even how they can culturally engage with their past. You know they are Muslims, which kind of places they can visit as against Muslim or transgender Muslim or things like that. OK? And then [00:45:30] also given legal advice. Many refugees come here and they have their partners in their countries, and then they have difficulties to prove their relationship because their relationship was something that they were ashamed of in their country or origin. So how to help them, you know, to reunite with their actual partners and stuff like that, Um, helping refugees that come here and don't even understand who they are. Like many people I met in here in New Zealand like a transgender woman that came from Saudi Arabia to study English and then decided [00:46:00] to stay here because she wanted to be a woman. And she don't even know how to start the process here in New Zealand. And she don't even speak good English. And she's been now in this situation of trying to seek asylum. Yeah, because she's an asylum seeker. She she might now start the process of being recognised as a refugee and all this stuff and many other things. Like, for instance, when I was living in the refugee camp in Hungary, I found a woman she identified at that time as a woman. [00:46:30] She came from Zambia and and she she knew about me because everybody that knew about me, something very terrible somebody everyone in the company knew about me. So she approached me and said, Look, I'm a woman that likes women, but I don't know who I am because I don't like this one. And she was showing me her books, and she was like Like she was very curious about me because she didn't really understood. Well, how can I be like, Are you gay [00:47:00] or what's your business? Please educate myself. And then I put starting to let her know about making her aware of her transsexual that she was unaware because she she says, I never feel of being a woman, and now she's starting to transition to be a trans man by thinking then she was before a lesbian because she couldn't really. In her culture, there is not understanding of being a trans person, so there is many ways to prove the [00:47:30] ho how gay you are or how lesbian you are or how trans you are. But the United Nations has terrible ways to do that. So, um, for instance, in Czech Republic just five years ago, they were implanting Penis sensors. So something that you put in the Penis of the asylum seekers to check the arousal while watching porn movies, gay movies and these kind of things or very inclusive very intru intruded [00:48:00] questions just about the person just to assess their sexual orientation. And all these things were the ones that the United Nations was starting to see as a very something that need to be changed. So they created the number nine, guidelines to let to help, uh, case workers to improve their ways to assess cases. Because it's not good to ask these questions, Uh, when you don't really know how to ask these questions. [00:48:30] So So, like, they see a person, a woman, that she is a lesbian, but she has a Children. So how how is that possible? And she's just trying to explain she was raped in her country of origin and then because having a heterosexual behaviour is is a challenging thing to prove them that you are actually part of the LGBTI because you have a heterosexual behaviour or many other things. You know, many people try to conform, so [00:49:00] in those countries you have to conform to survive. And then the United Nations is asking you to not to conform so we can prove that you are who you are. So these kind of things that will change and they starting to be changed. So now protection in the field is how we help refugees like me when they are in countries of transition. This thing is not an important matter for New Zealand because New Zealand is considered a resettlement country rather than the country of transition. Because this country is good enough for LGBTI people to stay here. [00:49:30] So it's like how we help how we accept this. Accept, uh, help these refugees in many things like especially with housing and health, many of them having HIV and being untreated while being in the countries of of transition. Many trans women that started already transitioning have have to not access to to hormones like in my case when I was in Hong Kong and all sorts of issues like general facilitation, things like food having a job. But you as a refugee, you can't work in a country [00:50:00] of transition. You are completely forbidden of that. You are forbidden to study and all these kind of basic things that you are forbidden. And you know it's very difficult when you are in other countries. So how we can as refugees, make sure that every person can fulfil every single aspect of their lives and they can have a decent life in the country of transition. There is something that is called multiplicity effect, that you are not just a refugee, and you are also [00:50:30] a foreigner in a country and that you can experience racism and then you can experience transphobia or homophobia or intersex phobia and all these things together when we bring a refugee from other places. So this is something that we need to be aware of because a single person can be all the spectrum of of of things that we, you know, we need to protect someone whose race or religion [00:51:00] or origin may can create problems when they are trying to resettle in a place. Many people don't know that you can be protected under the United Nations for being lesbian, gay, bisexual, intersex or transgender. And this is something that is very sad to know, because many people, they just, uh they don't understand. This means of the mechanisms of protection and they don't even understand how to access them. So they just [00:51:30] give up and they just, um, don't seek for protection. I didn't know that and I don't think many of you guys know about these things because it's really and it's a very difficult process. As you might know, to becoming a refugee is something that can take you years and and it's much suffering. And I don't think many people is willing to to wait so long because you have to stay in refugee camps for over five years without the ability to to work or study, especially if it's tertiary education. [00:52:00] Sometimes you can't sometimes you can't in Hong Ko. I wasn't able to study. Some countries allow you to study. Most of countries don't let you to work, so these kind of things OK, so we suffer when you're in those countries. Civil isolation. I was suffering from civil isolation when I was in a shipping container in Hong Kong. I don't think that's the way you should treat a person that's gender is different or sexual. Sexual [00:52:30] identity is different, but I know that doesn't give much funds for refugees. So I understand the limitations. But we also need to protect the dignity of a person because persons we are persons and we deserve to be treated with dignity. Um, also, we need to provide them a legal support because they don't have any legal support. We need to provide them H RT because many of them they don't have, uh I remember in Hong Kong one person [00:53:00] from China dying because they were not providing him their medication. And I know and I know this person died. Nowadays, you don't die for HIV. But he was dying because the government of Hong Kong wasn't giving him the medication. Then people that face many difficulties like a trans person with HIV. So trying to provide access [00:53:30] to this person is going to be super difficult. And then you know how it provides psychosocial services in house and and employment. So, basically, the resettlement is not different from the protection in the field, like how we provide these refugees. A safe housing, a safe job, a safe community, where to be and how we engage all these people in our own communities, in our gay community, lesbian community, a community trust community, everything to make them feel welcome because they come from a place they don't understand what is being welcome and what is being [00:54:00] embraced and celebrated. So that's something that we must we need to do to help them in their in their mental health because they don't really know what is to be accepted, right? So I just mentioned we need to care about the loved ones of the of the refugees, their partners, their dependents. Many of them have Children, their health, their community, their family. Many of them live their families forever like me, and they don't want to see their families back anymore. But not not [00:54:30] all of them have the same situation and how to provide safe, safe housing and employment. Thank you.

IRN: 1049
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/pacific_human_rights_conference_outcomes_proud_2016.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004421
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089715
TITLE: Pacific Human Rights Conference outcomes - Proud 2016
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Elizabeth Taylor; Grant Jones; Isikeli Vulavou; Ken Moala; Kevin Haunui; So'oalo To'oto'oali'i Roger Stanley; Sulique Waqa
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; American Samoa; Aotearoa New Zealand; Cook Islands; Elizabeth Taylor; Fiji; Free and Equal (UN campaign); Gigi Baxter; Grant Jones; Gregory Scrivener; Grindr; Guam; HIV / AIDS; Haus of Khameleon (Fiji); ILGA World; International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association (ILGA); Isikeli Vulavou; Jack Harrison-Quintana; John Scott; Ken Moala; Kevin Haunui; Pacific Human Rights Conference (2015); Pacific Sexual Diversity Network (PSDN); Papua New Guinea; Pasifika; Proud 2016 (Wellington); Samoa; So'oalo To'oto'oali'i Roger Stanley; Sulique Waqa; Sulivenusi Waqa; Tonga; Tuisina Ymania Brown; University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine; University of Waikato; Vanuatu; Wellington; Yogyakarta Principles (2006); access to health care; bisexual; bullying; climate change; conference; crime; discrimination; domestic violence; education; fa'afafine; fakaleiti; health; hormone replacement therapy (HRT); hormone treatment; human rights; internet; law; lesbian; lobbying; media; misgendered; misgendering; monitor; murder; police; research; safe sex; security; sex work; social media; stigma; storytelling; transgender; transmasculine; transphobic violence; video online; violence; youth
DATE: 11 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine, Mein Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: This is the short video that was shown at the end of the presentation:
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Good morning, everyone. Uh, this session is more the, uh, on the Pacific human rights conference that we had in Tonga. Um, in May last year, I guess some of you were, um, had seen it on Internet. That, um, we had quite a an audience from outside the, um uh, from the, uh, um, public. But, uh, [00:00:30] it was just 12 people from this church, and that didn't really bother us. The conference went well, And, um, but, uh, we want to, um, um, report back on the outcome of that, uh, conference and bear in mind. We are looking at, um, hosting the next Pacific Conference, um, in the Cook Islands next year. And, uh, at this time, I won't waste any more time. Um, I'll let, [00:01:00] uh, Kelly, uh, give you a, um the, uh, outcome the overview of of the of the conference. And then you can ask questions if you like. Thank you. Thank you. The Pacific uh, LGBTI human rights conference that was held in Tonga was the very first one for the Pacific. And the theme of the conference was our voices, our communities, our rights, advancing human rights related to sexual orientation gender [00:01:30] identity an expression in the Pacific. And it was hosted by the Pacific Sexual Diversity uh, network in NUKUALOFA to from the 11th to the 14th of May. We had about 96 people, uh, attendee, uh, including, uh, 73 per, uh, participants from the 12 different Pacific Island countries and territories. And, uh, these were mainly volunteers [00:02:00] and civil society representatives or individuals who are human rights defenders. And, uh, the countries included Cook islands, Fiji, American Samoa. Uh, we had people from Papua New Guinea, Vanuatu, Tuvalu, Kiri Palau. And there were also some, um, attendees or delegates from the Australia from Australia and New Zealand. The, um, [00:02:30] there were four key objectives of the conference. Uh, one was to connect the, uh, people and LGBTI to organised groups across the Pacific region, uh, to share our ideas, uh, information also the strategies and programmes that we implement in our different countries to affirm our dignity, equality, and the security of, uh, LGBT people and communities in the Pacific. We also use the conference as a [00:03:00] platform to educate and advocate about international human rights law and recent international developments and agreed principles like the Yogyakarta principles and encourage participants to use or refer to these international instruments when they are are doing the advocacy work in country. [00:03:30] We also used the conference to promote collaboration and to build genuine and accountable partnerships among the organisations that were present and to also encourage and push those who are present to undertake social action across the Pacific region, learning from our human rights successor and challenges [00:04:00] and also responding to the violations against people because of their soI status. Uh, the conference was also about, uh, promoting and en enabling access to sharing information and the dissemination of information, ideas, experiences as well as resources among uh all the countries that were present and also improving understanding and strengthening [00:04:30] the collaboration among key stakeholders that are in the region, particularly in terms of the donor, um, communities and development agencies in the region. Um, and most of those objectives, the would not only target some of those objectives we felt was also long term objectives. OK, some of the things [00:05:00] that we needed to achieve that objectives would require a long term, uh, action OK. And some of those actions are currently being undertaken by the PSDN and its members. There were five, priorities that were identified, uh, during the the conference, and this came out as outcomes, uh, for the conference and areas in which all the members or all the all the PSDN members [00:05:30] and participants were going to prioritise in the next 3 to 5 years and number one is access to health services. This was identified as a priority for the LGBT Q I persons, uh, in the Pacific, particularly those in remote communities. And as you know, in the Pacific, we are separated by large bodies of water in the ocean [00:06:00] and most of these islands are unreachable and we have members of our community who are LGBT are in those islands that are not reached at all by any organisation. And this was one of the reasons we thought that we need to specially mention those in remote communities. But otherwise, even in urban centres, we do not have services that are specifically targeted towards [00:06:30] LGBT people. And one of the major, um, discussion also was around the linkages between health and climate change and that health must be considered in the broader context of climate change and the limits that it has on sexual and reproductive health and rights. [00:07:00] So that was also one of the key things that we felt was a priority for us as a community to ensure that when we are having discussions on health or any other development issue that affects us as a community, we need to factor in the climate change, uh, implications, given the environment that we live in, uh, under health, uh, steel, condoms and HIV testing. Uh, and counselling [00:07:30] was a priority. And there's not many countries that have established networks or organisations that focus on LGBTI, and they are not well resourced. So most of the work that is done is done purely on the passion, uh, of the individual and they are unpaid, and we can expect them to to do [00:08:00] their work in a much more organised and structured way. It's entirely dependent on their interest or what their mood is like. That is when they come to us and tell us we would like to distribute condoms or share information. So this is an area that we would like to strengthen, uh, within, uh, the Pacific, particularly for the key populations for men who have sex with men are transgender, transgender women as well as sex workers. [00:08:30] Another, um, area that, uh and as, um, human had, um, shared in the plenary. Uh, we did. We didn't see hormonal therapy as a priority during the conference. That's why it doesn't appear in the outcomes. Uh, statement, um, for our trans community demanding for hormones. OK, but this doesn't negate the fact that it was discussed [00:09:00] during the conference. It's just that it wasn't a priority identified by our by the forum. The other area under access to health services was, uh, health professionals. Not many of them have been sensitised towards the specific needs of the LGBTI community. So we felt that their capacity building, uh, in terms of sensitization towards, uh, our [00:09:30] LGBTI specific needs, uh, need to be undertaken also in the next, uh, 3 to 5 years. So that was on access to health services. And, uh, the other priority area was young LGBT people. We feel that in most, um, open spaces and, uh, safe spaces, there were not many opportunities or there were lack of participation from our younger [00:10:00] LGBT people. This is those within the age, like 16 or maybe 19 below those 19 below. There was hardly any of the organisations that, um the LGBTI organisations in the Pacific that were reaching our younger, uh LGBTI communities So they are not reached by many of our programmes and they do [00:10:30] face a lot of bullying, extensive bullying, especially those in secondary schools and this often contribute to these young LGBT people leaving school early. So what we have identified is that we need to strengthen our comprehensive strengthen or even introduce comprehensive sexuality education at all levels not only in school but also out of school. For those, um, to target young [00:11:00] uh LGBTI people OK, and there's, uh a lot of work that needs to be done in this area to be able to reduce uh, bullying experienced by young G BT people in schools. The third area that we, um thought was a priority was security for our community members. And there's a lot of barriers to security that were identified [00:11:30] in the discussions that we had at the conference. And some of these included accessing police in cases of domestic violence by partners and family members. For example, in Fiji, we have the constitution where our rights are protected, supposedly protected under the Bill of Rights. But it's only up there. The implementation is very [00:12:00] poor. OK, so we members of our community who are taken to the police, particularly the trans sex workers who are often taken from the streets and taken to the police stations. They face a lot of harassment, uh, and at times are even raped by those who are supposed to be protecting them. So this protection, uh, for our community is very weak, and they are abused by the people who are in power. [00:12:30] Um, the fourth one is our movement, uh, building, uh, within the countries and also across the region. We feel that needs to This needs to continue and needs to be strengthened, uh, through future in person, convening. Uh, although we have, uh, the Internet that has sort of made the world smaller in the Pacific. We like to talk. [00:13:00] We don't like writing, so we prefer meeting in person. It often, uh, is more meaningful. And we are able to, uh, have substantive discussions and also able to create a synergy which we take back to our homes and also the energy and motivation to take back to our island countries and, uh, do the work that needs to be done. And we also need a lot of a lot of training on human rights, Uh, [00:13:30] and strengthening of Pacific networks like the PSDN. And most of the participants that attended the the the conference they were learning. It was the first time for for them to learn about the international human rights instrument during the conference. And this is a common situation across the Pacific. It's just the people that are sitting up here, and only a few of us who have been exposed to such, um, spaces. [00:14:00] And we are privileged to learn about these things. Otherwise, majority of our members, uh, lack information that they have adequate, uh, inadequate knowledge on human rights. The movement needs to be stronger, and we need, uh, inputs and participation from, uh, the various, uh, sexual diversities, particularly lesbians and bisexuals, uh, who are men [00:14:30] and also trans schooling. Uh, so bisexual women and bisexual men and trans masculine persons, perhaps through a separate but mutually reinforcing in convenience. Uh, in the Pacific, you will see that only a majority of the activists are trans women and now we in Fiji. We are fortunate to have very strong women rights [00:15:00] activists and feminists who are also lesbians. So they have been able to strengthen the participation of, um, lesbian, bisexual, our women and trans men in the movement. Otherwise, in other Pacific countries, it's, uh it's still work in progress. And the final, uh, priority area that was identified also during [00:15:30] the conference was the lack of data, the need for more researchers. Um, there's not much data on the Pacific in the region. There's very little research done in the Pacific. I think only in Fiji we've had two, IB BS S that has been done and in other Pacific Island countries, Uh, there's very, [00:16:00] uh, little or none at all. And this is an area we have identified because we need evidence to be able to, uh, convince our policymakers to support our programmes and our endeavours. So that's why we have, uh, identified, uh, research as an area where we need, uh to put in more effort and also more resources so that when we meet in the next five years, we are able to make [00:16:30] progresses in these five priority areas that were identified during the conference. Thank you, miss. Uh, Joey, thank you very much. Uh, Miss Kelly, Um, before we go into questions and answers, um, is there anything else that anyone else would like to, um add from So OK, I was given, um, moments building for [00:17:00] me to present on. Well, you can, um in the beginning, I think the number one issue that we have is isolation in the Pacific region. You see, with Melanesian Micronesian, Polynesians, we have all over all over the the the old Pacific Ocean. So it's very hard in terms of communications, but we really prefer as we come together with the old traditional way of face to face in representing our issues and dialogue, it is right to have specific focus to the dialogue [00:17:30] with the LGBTI human rights issues and discrimination. Pacific uh LGBTI Q Human rights conference and April dedicates from Pacific discuss regional issues. Human rights mechanisms available to us strategy Addressing homophobia, transphobia, associate impact in the communities. So, to this end, it is important that the regional work is promoting soggy human rights in the Pacific continues soon supported by our stakeholders Government, [00:18:00] Pacific countries and territories. Regional and international NGO S, UN bodies, L, BC, Q I and South Africa communities and donors. In the same gathering, we review some of the complicity of human rights issues in our region. The different ideas and the selling and priorities emerge more diverse voices the from We talk about how culture gave a sense of belonging and connectedness [00:18:30] feeling I of families in the community. But they still struggle with discrimination with respect to countries. Um, the loss of recognition of the cultural role that have in families like the impact to the sense of belonging and well being, the struggle for human rights recognition as sexually sexuality and gender diverse people. We must remember that we are also interested recognition for our cultures. The situation [00:19:00] is a bit different. You Papua New Guinea, preferably me countries where there is no no, uh, culture recognition of gender diverse people and across the board all the island lesbian, bisexual, trans masculine identity are invisible and have not been included in some of the broader movements work LGBT women are working close actively in the other spaces around development, climate change, human rights, et cetera. But it stronger importance [00:19:30] to PC. I GB I movement. This was the end of this gathering recommendations were BS DN and delegates from the need to work with the international partners and donors to organise follow up in 2017. By the time we meet, we can see assistance with the smaller uh LGBT. Women [00:20:00] should address the following points longer in de workshops on key aspects such as human rights framework, key terms and acronyms should be explained and across should be provided. There should be translated for non-english speakers attention to some of the logistic, uh, logistical challenges that are common for first timers and should be addressed for future gatherings. Delegates give country presentation in the state of right within [00:20:30] their country. Cultural identities such as a and a address culturally appropriate ways, not just as G PC Q I ensure accessibility. Inclusion of disabled members of the community are processing health of delegates by including safe six AIDS in conference bags. Further new and returning PSD and board members or the board as a whole undertakes governance training or engage with partner organisations to upskill [00:21:00] in this area. PSDN should also develop a strategy for meaningful engagement with the French speaking and Pacific countries UH, a priority. Moving forward awareness and acceptance of and our movements in both internal capacity. Building around communications and building capacity for mainstream media and coverage of the people and issues media and identifies the priority in the way forward measures generated by delegates. [00:21:30] Communication Public awareness strategies were broadly discussed during this, uh, conference. The last two recommendations. Um, I think it's still on the issue of capacity building more capacity building in terms of, um, the latest technology and internal external communications and training for regional journalism and journalists and other um um [00:22:00] associated, uh, personnel about media should, um, learn more about so human rights issues and and G PC Q I, uh, issues within our Pacific communities. Thank you. Just probably one point, uh, in terms of monitoring and research in the Pacific, we have a a huge gap in terms of actually looking at some of the latest trend on the human rights violations of LGBT people, [00:22:30] particularly uh, for, uh, murder cases of trans women. This is something that we've been pushing with the Fiji Human Rights Commission and something that we've also been struggling as an organisation like the House because of limited resources, we are not able to do this. And one of the questions that we always throw out to the floor, as you know within the members was whose responsibility is to monitor human rights elections in the Pacific to us, apart from, you know, using community resources to do this. I think it is also important to note that [00:23:00] the state has an obligation to monitor human rights abuse of LGBT people under the Paris principles. If you're looking at, you know, Samoa and Fiji, who has, uh, the Human Rights Commission and I think it's important that we hold them accountable in terms of this, uh uh, obligations, particularly for grassroots communities who have no funding at all, no resources to be able to do this. [00:23:30] And I think it's That's why it's important to to work with the government. One of the key recommendations that came out from the Human Rights Conference in Tonga in terms of monitoring and evaluation is more data is needed on the health needs of lesbian, bisexual and transgender women, including an analysis of violence experienced by these women. So one of the things that we're doing this year, like I've mentioned in the past at events is that we will be working with the Fijian women's rights movement. [00:24:00] This is going to be a community led research specifically on sexual and gender based violence of trans women. And fortunately, we've been able to receive a very, very small grant from the European Union. For us to be able to do this, this is going to be the first ever, uh, S GB V research in Fiji and I'm sure in the Pacific Islands as well has there been a research done on S GB violence specifically for trans women? So I think it's very important that hopefully that the other countries will be [00:24:30] able to to do the same as well for in terms of monitoring human rights violations on violence against transgender women. We've had the IB BS report that, uh mentioned the vulnerability of transgender women in terms of violence. But the limitations of that report was it didn't go in depth into the situation and the whole, uh, the situation of trans women violence. The other recommendation is CSO S in the region [00:25:00] need support from all partners to further their training on documenting and monitoring the human rights situations in their countries. A couple of years ago, we spoke with transgender er doctor Kala, who came to the region. He's she's worked with, uh, association. They've been working together, and Jolene will be talking more about that. I was actually thinking of engaging her for the research, but then it's very expensive to get someone from Europe and to be able to do this unless she's doing it for pro bono. So one of the options that we had [00:25:30] was we spoke with Pacific leaders, uh, women leadership, uh, doctor Gina Hongli. And she recommended doctor Julian Fletcher from La Trobe University, who's done some work with Papua New Guinea in terms of violence against women. So she's working with us for this research. So fortunately, we've gotten her on board to be able to do this. But most most of the work will be done by us. We'll be doing the field work. We'll be done. The methodologies, the questionnaires, everything. We'll be analysing the data with us. So [00:26:00] she is. This is going to be a community led and community owned, uh, activity. And lastly, the recommendation that came out in terms of monitoring and research. Governments must be pressured to consider and implement recommendations in the, uh, office of the High Commission for Human Rights Report and the Gear Principles and for good. We've been working with from the office of the High Commission for Human Rights in the Pacific and, uh, for the free and equal campaign. And also, we've [00:26:30] had conversation with her in terms of monitoring of these, uh, violations of LG three people, OK, just to, um just to follow up on, um, on what said? There. There. There was one. research. Uh, it was more like AAA social mapping, um, legal and social mapping of Hania. And and, uh, this was done through PSDN on the former members from from the countries. [00:27:00] Um, and it's got I've got copies of the of all of that over here. Um, for everybody. It's on the trans respect versus transphobia. Um, and it's got, um it provides an overview of the human rights situations and trans persons in different parts of the world. Um, and it develops a You a useful data. But this this, um, was suggested [00:27:30] that, uh um that, uh, mentioned that it there should be one specifically on the undeveloped Pacific countries to cover, all because we weren't able to get every country. And, um, uh, it's got everything to do with, uh, the latest criminalization prosecute [00:28:00] prosecution and state sponsored discrimination hormones and hormone therapy. Um, gender reassignment treatment, Surgery of body, um, modifications. So please grab a copy of it. I've got a whole lot of of of it over here, but, um, like said, then there needs to be one that's actually run and managed by the Pacific people. [00:28:30] Um, to to make sure that we have an updated, uh, report on what's happening. Um, in in in the Pacific Islands. Uh, what are the things we one of the things we're hoping to cover in terms of this research, we're going to between this in April. So hopefully in July or August, we're going to be launching this in Fiji. It's gonna be available online, and then we can show is to [00:29:00] look at the death of transgender women in Fiji. We've had murder cases in the past where transgender women have been murdered in mako in land some other areas, you know, cassava shoved up there. They're back and all of that Women coming, you know, back from work, assaulted in the in the plantation and all of that. They they lost their life. And then the murder case of, um, John Scott and his partner and all of that. So these are not documented. These stories are not [00:29:30] told so to us, it is important to have this so that we will be able to hear, like, you know, the the unheard voices of these women. I think it's also important to to to talk about the role that PSDN play in terms of monitoring research in the Pacific. To To me, it's important that we're not just holding government accountable. We're holding each other as well. Accountable. How? How can we strengthen the role of the Pacific sexual diversity in the region To be able to have the capacity [00:30:00] to do this kind of work in the future, like I wanna have that conversation as well? And to me, this is important that we sit over here to to sort of engage in that and look at our partners in Australia and New Zealand how they can help them. The movement to be able to to have that in place to Giana. Um, yeah, um I think as, um have already [00:30:30] mentioned, um, most of the stuff, in his view about the Pacific Human Rights Conference. But I'll just, um, elaborate further on the security issues that we have in the Pacific. Um, like he mentioned as well about the domestic violence by partners and family members. Um, when the reports are made, they weren't, um, being attended to like the police didn't attempt to assist or they didn't further on with the, um, with the investigation or other, [00:31:00] Um um, technicalities that were supposed to be done. Um, the funny thing is, um, in some of our countries, for example, in Fiji, um, they, um, have the soy, um, protection of stigma, discrimination. But when it comes to like, um, such cases of domestic violence or even harassment, the police officers they do not enforce or implement, like, um, silicon, um, [00:31:30] mentioned, um, the the law in place of the Bill of Rights. Um, I think one of the issues that we discuss further on the in this conference is because maybe there weren't enough training. Or maybe they were just ignorance of the, um, in the recruitment of the police or they weren't just, um, con dialogue in place at all. Uh, to, uh, put in the move, uh, put in enforce the, uh, the bill of rights of, um, protection of, [00:32:00] um LGBT persons on stigma discrimination. Um, also, uh, with the LGBT sex workers. Um, when they get arrested, it's the same case, um, they go when they get held in custody or are in jail. They the police make fun of them. They were in instances where they ask them to touch each other's genital parts and play with each other and, uh, stripped [00:32:30] and naked some. In some cases, they, um they get raped and whatnot, so it's quite severe. Well, it's severe in the consequence of the consequences that they face in in prison. Um, so we with all of that, with the recommendation that we have in place, is to more, uh, to lobby more with the government on the government level in each country. Um, for the more the advocacy of [00:33:00] the laws, advocacy of the laws, in terms of training with the law and for the lawmakers, the policy makers the police, the police officers, um, and other people in the policy level, uh, to put into practise the training into place for people to understand and communicate across with the, um, the the law so that everyone in the police force do understand the issue. Uh, do understand the LGBT community and [00:33:30] to, um to have the respect and to carry out what the law and to implement further on what the law has stated. Yeah, I think that's all good to say about security. Um, I Elizabeth One of the highlights during the conference was bullying of young LGBTI because of the serious bullying in the education system [00:34:00] where driven all the LGBTI people to not completing their educations that fed up most of them end up on the street doing sex work. And eventually they don't, um, some of them, especially in Papua New Guinea, settings they can't read. And most of them cannot, you know, get information about basic how to prevent them from HIV and AIDS, which leads them to get infected with HIV and AIDS and even other [00:34:30] ITIS as well. So um, one of the recommendations that were made was to look at the education curriculum in place so that, um will try and push in with the policy makers, work with the policy or the Department of Education to push in and to, um, try and, um put in US sexual reproductive time uh, sexual reproductive, [00:35:00] uh, sexual reproductive health education system in place so that students can be taught in school about gender identity and sexual orientation and the sexuality of different individuals. One of the recommendations that were made also was government must be pressured to introduce comprehensive sexuality and human rights education in the school career. Colum and the other one was PN, and all groups [00:35:30] in the region should consider fostering youth in leadership position within the organisation. So this comes back to PSD and and other organisations within the respective countries who are already working with the young LGBT R to even build their leadership skills and do this mentoring system so they can be the next advocator for the next generation. Thank you. Um, [00:36:00] we don't have much time, um, for another presentation, but for the rest of the 20 minutes or 25 minutes, I'll leave it for the audience to, um, ask any question to colleagues. Oh, sorry, Jack. And then should I start? Um, hi, everybody. Thank you for the presentation. My name is Julia. I'm originally from Italy. But [00:36:30] now I'm a student at the university of and I would like to ask you a question regarding, uh, your advocacy in the Pacific. And my question is, uh do you engage or do you have some sort of collaboration with, uh, big human rights NGO S like Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch? And, of course, the And if they help you, for example, uh, for [00:37:00] the, uh, I don't know, capacity building on the international human rights law or to work with the United Nations and things like this. Thank you. At the Pacific Human Rights Conference, we had a international that was one of our partners. And a international is one of the well known um LGBT human rights. Um, international NG. I think [00:37:30] it is based in, uh, Canada, based in Canada. So they were instrumental in, uh, assisting us in mobilising funds to, um to support the organisation of the conference. And apart from that, they also did facilitate the sessions on international human rights law and that was the only engagement [00:38:00] substantive one that we have had with them. But we continue to contact each other every now and again. And, uh, we are also currently waiting for the next call of applications from the US State Department. Global equality, uh, programme. And they are specifically targeting the Pacific in this round. So they have, uh, advised [00:38:30] us to look for international, not look for international partners. Look for partners first, locally at the local or regional level. Uh, who can work with us, Uh, in terms of strengthening the work or our capacity around the area of human rights. And we have a regional organisation in Fiji, the Pacific community, It it has a division on regional. It's a rights, [00:39:00] uh, regional rights resource team. So they have been providing technical assistance to many countries in the region, particularly for women's rights and Children's rights and G BT i rights. They have also supported the conference. And this is one of the partners that we have, uh, uh approached to assist us with this work. And also they have, um asked us [00:39:30] to also explore other international partners who can help them and for them to also help us to implement the programme that we are going to develop in preparation for this global equality Fund. I think another important process that I want to add is the role that world plays. And I can, uh, add [00:40:00] on in terms of the universal periodic review processes. And I think they were very instrumental in making sure that the countries in the Pacific they were currently under review and they have submissions from the LGBT community, particularly one that we had from Fiji that was facilitated through world. And they made the submissions on our behalf in Geneva as well as, uh, Samoa and Yemenia as well is also looking at the current development that's taking place in the [00:40:30] Solomon Islands in terms of the review of the Constitution and the removal of the discrimination clause in the the old one. So those are some of the things the other one is important to note is the last year's engagement and PSD and was engaged with the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights for the launching of the free and equal campaign, the videos on YouTube and we have a DVD or we're supposed to play it OK, so we have the DVD for that in terms. So that's one of the engagement that we have. We also [00:41:00] engaging with UN SC in terms of the post 2015 development processes as well as the SDG in terms of engaging in the development of the indicators. Some of us will be in Bangkok in the next month for the Asia Pacific Forum on Sustainable Development, so that's a very important global process as well. And also one of our PSD and board members. The youngest, the Youth Rep. Ms. Miki Wale is currently in New York for the [00:41:30] 60th Commission on the Status of Women, pushing the issues of, uh, lesbian, bisexual and transgender women from the Pacific to that process as well. As, uh, some of us were involved in the intergovernmental, uh, meeting on HIV a ID last year in Bangkok. And those are some of the processes that we've been involved in at the regional level Uh, a PT gas a PTNI. I sit in the regional steering Committee for the Asia Pacific Transgender Network Regional [00:42:00] Steering Committee. So we are influencing some of some of the development is taking place at the Asia Pacific region. And I think it's very strategic that we engage at the at the, you know, those of, uh, development partners that's based in Bangkok, particularly the UN in terms of actually, uh, pushing across some of the agendas from the Pacific Islands. Do you want to add some more? There is a lot like, [00:42:30] um, so if anyone doesn't know me, I'm Jack from grinder. Um and I just wanted to I know it sounds funny every time I say it, um, I just wanted to I was really thinking about the research piece, and I just wanted to offer us as one way to get that out. Um, so if there are particular that are already happening, like in Fiji, I'm happy to send that out to all brand new users in Fiji to increase the number of people who are taking the survey or if we wanted to collaborate on an [00:43:00] original survey that was all throughout the Pacific. Um, I just checked the numbers and we have about 5000 users in outside of New Zealand and Australia within the Pacific. So I think that we could get at least some information that might be useful. I think another important thing to note in terms of like if you do, you know, like who releases is just a platform for gay men or for transgender women as well. If you're doing research on trans violence, for example, [00:43:30] I think it's important to note like I know it's a We love it. I mean, it's gay men by men, trans women and then trans men. But among trans women and trans men, it's mostly people who are interested in partnering with men. So not so much lesbian trans women or trans men who date women. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Somebody didn't know that. And, um [00:44:00] mm Oh, usually when we've done this in the past with research, we do. Then if we publish it, say, like this is among grinder users. And so you know, not to say that it represents the whole community, but that it adds to a one piece to the research. I think it's important, but I think I just want to be, like, very critical. If we talk about the Pacific Islands, we have also a community who are based in the rural areas or, you know, like other islands that have no access at all to Internet [00:44:30] or social media and all of that. So I think, uh, when we talk about engaging with, we want to engage. But we just wanted to make sure that we all cover. You know, the people we represent, everyone who's out there, It's a great platform. I mean, it's a great platform to to use in the right tool. And I think maybe, um, like some engagement on some HIV AIDS research or something that we want to push out or a message or something like that. Definitely the the platform to go with with with [00:45:00] a 5000 base immediately. That's kind of like, you know, that's an instant snapshot that you can't ignore from our from from grinder users. But it's what I have so that you can promote our. If we do get our website up, we can use grinder to promote our website. OK, I need [00:45:30] my job is literally just to be useful. So is there any other question? Media, both electronic and print are very important in terms of, uh, people's perception of what's happening in the alternative sexualities world, and I was interested to be interested to hear, [00:46:00] Um, what your opinions are about the way that you are portrayed in the media and whether or not you have access through the media to get the messages that you want to get out to your communities to do so Or is there Is there an entrenched um, is there a trenched hierarchy or institutional, uh, practises that prevent you from actually getting the messages across? So my question is about [00:46:30] how and how effective and, uh, how effective and whether or not there are barriers to getting the message through the existing media, Well, I believe it's a matter of like I said before we the Pacific being very isolated and we scattered all around the, you know, all these vast oceans. But it's just a matter of improving. Like I said, from the the outcomes of our human rights [00:47:00] that we had in Tonga, that will be the number one recommendation is to improve in terms of recommendations. But, um, I think we we still doing fine with the help of the social media and all in terms of getting contact and and and lobbying, talking about issues and and and stuff so Yeah. So media, social media is, is is is really assisting us as well. But, uh, we also have other means of getting getting our messages across and our issues, as well as getting out [00:47:30] some data, um, in place for us. Yeah, So that's I help. One of the things. One of the things that we've never we've never explored as a group as a Pacific LGBTI group is the the the concept that that's very entrenched in our communities of storytelling. You know, um and it's something that that that that we all live by, is the telling of a story. And I think with the help of of we're looking for international [00:48:00] partners to partner with, to bring a video camera and and let us tell our stories, you know, because the the question you ask is whether we're portrayed accurately in the media and and it's it's not. And we have never been portrayed accurately in the media because we've always been portrayed, um, under the auspices of AC white, gay male, kind of, you know, paradigm. You know what I mean? We we're completely like 22 nationalities [00:48:30] and 22 different ways to skin that CIS white male paradigm, you know, and and we tell stories in a different way. And and one of the things interesting things that came up in the Pacific Human Rights Conference was this need for Pacific LGBTI to tell their story on their terms. And it's really, really important for us. Also, a smaller to a lesser extent, and some media training for some of those that do cover the region would help. Um especially around misgender [00:49:00] of individuals, especially trans individuals, is a big, big, big issue for for, for for us. But, you know, these things are like, um, baby steps. You know, um, we we we Well, some of our association and also some of the Fiji and LGBT organisations. We're exploring the issue of P SAS like public service announcements through storytelling and one of the and Rogers nodding off. But, um, one of the things that we we the [00:49:30] campaigns that we we're developing at the moment is the, um the filming a public service announcement about, um, people that, uh is behind bars. Um, and the concept is, um, that they're behind bars, handcuffed with gaffer tape over their mouths, but then When you pan in closer, you actually see their families behind them. That when you when you in prison with these, Um pre, you know, preconceived notions and ideas. LGBTI [00:50:00] in Samoa, you are actually imprisoning their families as well, which is a very, very powerful PS A that we we've been working with trying to kind of, like, get the get the message out there. But I really, really stressed the importance of storytelling within the Pacific context because for us, this is how we survived for thousands of years. Is a group of Pacific people sitting down by the fire and telling stories, and that's that's something that that we bring to our activism that's unique to us, and we want to definitely develop [00:50:30] that. One thing for sure is that the media really helps us a lot, really assisted us a lot, but also different situations. You know what I mean before, maybe some more situation is not quite the same with, um with other isolated islands and to value like that. But of course, the media really assists us. I. I believe in everything that we do. If we actually actually get that message across that correctly from the beginning. Yeah. What is [00:51:00] the situation? Um, in terms of our social media, I think, um, because of the low level of, um, education system in the country, um, it it will be very difficult. And if I happen to, like, you know, introduce grinder inside, they will be thinking that I'm promoting homosexual inside the country context. So it's like it varies from different countries. So it's more like, as Imani [00:51:30] said, uh, storytelling is a good way of, you know, addressing such issue among the LGBTI community, right? And then we just bring out there and then we say they will be like, uh, you are you trying to promote, um, like, same sex relationship or same sex? You know, those homosexuality in the country? Yeah, those are the things, but it varies from different country in the Pacific. Uh, for social media, social media is powerful [00:52:00] in its own way, but but I think it already mentioned that, uh, we we prefer face to face sessions like face to face talk is more effective. It has more meaning. It has the person that you storytelling to will absorb the information, the real information that you want to across because in, I think in all Pacific countries for like for Vanuatu, that smile that that person that you walk past on the street there's a story behind that smile. There's something big behind that smile. That smile [00:52:30] is just a smile of saying hello, but you don't even know what he or she is going through in life. So for us in Vanuatu, like for social media, um, in, like same case as Papua New Guinea, we do not have, um, most of the The illiteracy is very high in Vanuatu, so with social media. But a lot of people do not go on social media because first of all, Internet is very expensive to buy. Data is very expensive. Like, um, it's $5 New Zealand for 50 [00:53:00] megabytes. That's like That's how it is in Vanuatu. So it's very expensive. And plus the smartphones are very expensive as well, and Vato has 83 islands, and it's it's a a long where with a lot of people in the communities, they don't even know what um, what's this? Social media is, But with what free pride is doing is we do, um, theatre or role plays so that we go into the community and do plays, but [00:53:30] like it is an amusement to the community. But it creates a dialogue, storytelling. So this is where we get the stories of their lives. And then we come back and do analysis and stuff like that. Yeah, Can I ask one more question before we watch the video? Go ahead. I'm also curious, as as an American about the American parts of the Pacific and how much they are involved in these kinds of dialogues. And if there's [00:54:00] anything from sort of the mainland of the US that we should be doing to support people in the Northern Marianas and Guam, um, American Samoa, there something you can do You can kind of like, really like man up and decide the app, the applicability of the the the recent Supreme Court decision because, um, from the territory's point of view, you know, they're they're pushing that it doesn't apply because it's a territory and not a state of the other union. [00:54:30] So you know it leaves. It leaves these nationals, these US nationals in American Samoa and the Northern Marianas and all the other territories in the Pacific in limbo, in legal limbo. You know, they pledged their allegiance to you. They, they they they travel on US passports. But they can't enjoy the same rights that that that your citizens enjoy through the Supreme Court decision. Massive, massive issue for us in American Samoa. But like like everybody has told you, life in the Pacific carries on, they still [00:55:00] live. They wake up in the morning. For them, the priority is putting food on the table and a roof over the the house and stuff like that. But they look to you guys. You, you you like, you know the citizens, you know, being sort of whatever mainland centric LGBT spaces like. Nobody even knows who the activists are there. So if that's a way that we can also make connections, I think I would love to do that. Um, I'd like to ask your question for Vanuatu's case, [00:55:30] we have, um, those American Peace Workers Peace, Peace, Peace Corps. And just last year, we have, um because we've got a a big number of gay people gay peace cops coming to Vanuatu. So they're trying to, um, um liaise with pride, uh, to do further work in them because they when they come to Vanuatu, they have to learn our local dialect or like a national language of Isla. So we do a lot of translation for them now, and, um, we [00:56:00] help them in the community in terms of act, uh, behaving in the in a national, uh, sorry in the local level. But, um, they are the ones who come in and they teach us about grind down And, um, with, um, like the smart ones who come overseas for school and work overseas. But when they come home, they use grind up, but they do not share with others about grind down. So when this Peace Corps they come, they teach the other locals the ground of those who have smartphones [00:56:30] or those who live in towns. And so this is how they get around with their work. I mean, the advocacy and the the relationships there in terms of the work related to IV as well. Yeah, some Ame American summer is also a part of the PSDN. Yeah, and just, uh, also relating to your question on media. The UN human rights office in Fiji has [00:57:00] organised workshops in Fiji for media monitoring because we have had many experiences in the in Fiji where media personnel were making were using a gay jokes right as a way to create fun or laughter, you know, as a form of entertainment. So we have been having a lot of discussions also on social media about them and [00:57:30] then people posting videos of these media people, uh, saying, uh homophobic things on television and then they post it on big group pages and then you get a whole barrage of homophobes just feasting on that, uh, video saying really nasty things. So we are working with the human rights, uh, office, uh, in Fiji, the UN human rights office in Fiji trying [00:58:00] to sensitise, uh, the media. So the media people who didn't attend these workshops are the ones who are still using, um, gay jokes as a way of entertaining their audience. I had experienced a lot of time because I organised the transgender pageant back in Fiji. The anti pageant. It's the biggest pageant in in in Fiji, very household name and [00:58:30] probably in the Pacific in terms of organising the logistics everything. So one of the things that we get every year in terms. So my contest is they get mis gendered by the Fijians, particularly the Fijians, you know, referring to them as he and all of this. So one of the things we did was to to engage with the reporters themselves, like, you know, and hold them accountable there because we also have a relationship a really good relationship with the chairman of the Media Industry Development Authority in Fiji, who is Ashwin Raj. He's also gay and he sits on [00:59:00] our board. He's likely to become the next director of the Fijian Rights Commission. So one of the things we did was we worked with him through the media decree in terms of, you know, making sure that, you know, they are in the reporting in line with the protections of people identity under the Constitution and all of that. So we have made some progress. I've particularly made some progress. It is with a reporter who's gender at one of my contests in the past and all future articles that came out was, you know, it was good and things like that. So [00:59:30] this is the kind of engagement that we want to encourage and continue to to do in terms of the media in Fiji, apart from social media. And I think it's also a responsibility for the LGBT community to, particularly on social media. There's a lot of bitching around and, you know, mis gene just from our community to each other and on social media. So I think it's a responsibility as well as social media users from LGBT in general. Yeah, OK, any more questions? [01:00:00] Well, actually, I just wanted to to acknowledge the leadership shown by acting as a collective to to represent the Pacific. And, uh, my question sort of starts to lead into the New Zealand context in terms of, um, hearing and I heard this morning, and I understand completely that context relates to the context from which where you come from and where we come from. But one of the, uh, and also [01:00:30] um, the messages around how we can assist. So, for example, through the Pacific Forum, I think was one of those things. Uh, and my analysis of the New Zealand situation or the situation is that there are a lot of voices. And so there's an LGBTI voice. There's a voice and there's a Pacifica voice within that whole New Zealand context. So something I would like you to think [01:01:00] about is, uh, what are those common messages that might apply to each of those different categories so that we can support each other? Uh, wherever we are. And I know from a perspective that is the one that we relate to straight away. So I'll just leave that as a comment, Uh, if you want, um, a really good comment. Uh, Kevin made and was raised [01:01:30] in the forum this morning about using the the the annual Pacific Island Forum in Fiji has the issue of GL BT rights before been raised within the context, you know, as a tabled item of agenda which I'm aware has to come through the the foreign minister of the country concerned, has that actually already been raised in the past. These issues at the forum that no, never it's never [01:02:00] been on a record from all the Pacific Island Forum community that has been shared with the like specific urgy sexual orientation and gender identity and expression issues are are raised, but it kind of slightly it's sort of, uh, like, raised in other areas, like for education under education, under comprehensive sexuality education. You know where so issues. So that's where [01:02:30] we can sort of try and fit it in. But it's not, um, it's not, uh, specifically mentioned in documents that are used when they have those Pacific Island Forum leaders. So just a follow up question from the comment that you made is does the Pacific sexual identity groups have any plans to raise this at a future, Uh, Pacific Island Forum? Yeah, they have, [01:03:00] um, just last year they had started this process of, um inviting or calling for expressions of interest from anyone from from the foreign countries who would like to raise any regional issue any issue that they would like to be raised as a priority issue regionally, including Australia and New Zealand. And they usually open up that call for expressions in January, and it closes in Feb. [01:03:30] And this is all part of the new Pacific Island Forum plan, which is focused on regionalism. So last year was the first time they raised it, and we I was going through the list of submissions that were made. There were two on human rights and they were submitted by two, different groups, one of which was Lisa Walls and another person who was the Coon coon. And they were they were suggesting or proposing that [01:04:00] a human rights mechanism, a monitoring mechanism, uh, be set up originally where that body can monitor, uh, the work that's done on U PR on the implementation of U, PR and other human rights issues. Last night we had a I. I was part of the pre Pacific CS W preparatory meeting. That's that's currently happening in New York and we were at the Pacific Islands Forum where it happened. So we had representations [01:04:30] from women activists from Tonga. Like of we had, you know, Solomon Islands, Ville Samoa, who and then one of the conversations that I had with a gender specialist, uh Sima Naidu, was actually developing a briefing paper for the next ministerial meeting that's coming up in Port Moresby on LGBT. So this is one of the conversations that I really wanted to have with IO as well as PDN and us developing a draught sort of a policy paper and briefing on our position. In terms of that, one of the things that [01:05:00] we are also working on was to align and push through the Pacific Islands Forum Declaration on gender equality. There is some very progressive, uh, statements out there that we can, you know, sort of like, um, as an entry point to have the conversation with the ministers that's gonna be meeting very soon. Is it or Yeah, September. So I think they should be in the pipeline. And we should continue this conversation apart from exploring what other other options in influencing [01:05:30] the Pacific framework as well as we have the triennial meeting that's coming up in 2017 in Samoa. I think we also have the Pacific Feminist Forum. And you know, these are some of the spaces and platforms where we can engage. We don't have the capacity to write really compelling, uh, submissions. So that's why in the morning I was asking, you know, the Australian and New Zealand we had wanted it when it came out. I had written to all the PSDN board members [01:06:00] if we could put in a submission under the regional originalism project, uh, for us, uh, requesting to have LGBT Q I issues on the agenda. So that's where we will need support from Australia and New Zealand. And my my perspective is, if it comes from the Pacific, if it's driven and led by us, it might be more receptive for the Pacific Island Forum leaders to even consider. [01:06:30] Consider it different ways of framing this and being strategic about it. And because we have a lot of, you know, member networks in the region, we can also sort of, like, do a research of what are the positions of the current Pacific island leaders in terms of LGBT T. So we well, remember, if you were here this morning, remember my presentation that is specific. Um uh uh, plan for country level. This is exactly what I mean by my [01:07:00] my next transition I'm gonna do. I'm gonna lobby it from my own government's level, and I'm gonna report it directly to our leaders. Right when you hear this morning, that is exactly what I meant by my my own transition. So it's also very important to figure out, like, what are the current positions of the Pacific island in terms of LGBT issues? So we know who's for so we can use them as an entry point to influence the one who's not really progressive in terms of LGBT in the Pacific. And I think we have Fiji, baby. And you know some other countries [01:07:30] that we can work with the only ones. So I think it also it's very encouraging to see the support coming from the audience regarding this. Um, yeah, sorry, you can go. Can I just add another comment? Um, working with another education group in the Pacific that we were very careful to make sure that whilst the submission on an educational issue unrelated to this was compiled [01:08:00] from New Zealand and Australia, it went under the name of the Pacific territories because it was felt that that would would carry more clout because you're probably aware of some of the negative aspects that come from the forum with domination from Australia or New Zealand. So I just flaked out as an idea. And if you submit the paper, uh, by the due date it will be circulated to the other foreign ministers, which gives them a chance to peruse [01:08:30] over prior. So it's just a suggestion. It's a great suggestion. It's something that PSDN is going to be working towards making sure that there's a collective effort to push to ensure that human rights is on the the SPF agenda. So yeah. Great point. Thank you. Ok, um, if there's no other question, um, I would like to take this moment to thank you all, but with the last bit of [01:09:00] the session, I would like to show you, um, a message from the Pacific Trans LGBT community. Sorry. Um, and this was the free and equal launch that was held in Fiji last year. Hope you enjoy it. [01:09:30] And with that note, Mala obit. Thank you very much, ladies, gentlemen. And whatever gender you are, God bless and have a wonderful time. Lunch time, Yeah.

IRN: 1033
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/bisexual_plenary_proud_2016.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004420
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089714
TITLE: Bisexual plenary - Proud 2016
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Sandra Dickson
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Hinemoana Baker; International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association (ILGA); Newtown; Pasifika; Proud 2016 (Wellington); Sandra Dickson; University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine; Wellington; Wellington Bisexual Women's Group; alcohol and drug abuse; biphobia; bisexual; bisexual erasure; bisexual invisibility; children; coming out; disability; disability rights; firefighter; gameshow; gender fluid; homophobia; identity; invisibility; marriage; sexual orientation; suicide; transphobia
DATE: 11 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine, Mein Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the bisexual plenary, including the gameshow We Want It All.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Good morning, everyone. How lovely to see you here with us. So my name and also is Lady by However I've decided lead by is a thing of the past. And now I am dang by and on a good day It's a hot day. [00:00:30] We've got something interactive for you this morning We've got a game show we can't do Who wants to be a millionaire? Because they've already done that. We've got something better. We've got a game, a game that involves the issues that are pertinent to people who love more than one gender. And we have some authentic bisexual people here. I am one of [00:01:00] them, and we stand proud and ready to share this game with you. And we think we've got a really on the spot to name for this game. We're gonna play a little clip and see if that gives you a clue. Yeah. Yeah. [00:01:30] So this game has prices, like all good game shows, Uh, and we'll hear about those surprises as we go along, but I think without further ado, let me tell you how it works. Each of our lovely contestants over here is going to have a chance to answer one question. They will have four options and 60 seconds within which to respond. [00:02:00] So without further ado, can I welcome up my first contestant? Oh, wait, There's something else. Oh, yes, I need to tell you with the lifelines. So should they be having trouble answering the question they can reach for lifeline, something we want to encourage anybody to do? The lifelines go like this. There's a chance to choose that 50 50 lifeline, which means we'll take out 50% of the wrong answers. Then you only left with two. [00:02:30] Your next live line is ask the audience. There's all kinds of collective knowledge in here. They so we can put it up to the audience and see what feedback they've got for us. Lifeline number three, Call a friend. You know, someone who knows more than you do about this possible Answer them. Give them a ring. Now, the thing about life lines, because we can only use them once. So once one of these contestants, let's use one step for that lifeline. All right, I think [00:03:00] that's all we need to know. So let's invite out our first contestant, Marie, when you're ready Hello, four. Great. Bye. What do you like to tell us? Just a couple of things about yourself. Um, I'm, um a violin is my job. I've got three Children. The four legged variety. Not the two legged about it. Ok, fantastic. [00:03:30] Thank you for being here with us today. Thank you for being the first person now. So let's have a look at what's coming. You feeling ready? Ready? Let's do this. Let's move on. OK, Do people who identify as bisexual generally prefer to be with someone who is a the same gender as themselves? B, A different gender to themselves. See [00:04:00] all genders and equal else all the time. The love, It's different for everybody. A bit of a tricky one. This. So are you, Um think you have an idea what you're gonna see here? I think I know. Yeah. Yeah, I reckon it is. Dean [00:04:30] came the day I ask her. Yeah, you're you're away and you won a prize. Oh, yes. It's true. The right to be bisexual. You're amazing. That's super. Thank you very much. We're so glad to come. Thank you. [00:05:00] Yeah. So, um Sandra? Yeah. A bit nervous to see Robert a bit. We got a big hand and all out of it. So I pretty excited that, uh, here and yes, that is true. Let's, um Let's look at what's Sandra's up to these days? A couple of things. [00:05:30] Oh, OK. So I came out as bisexual in 1989 when I was 18. So I can remember the days of, um, signs and events saying bisexuals Fuck off. Yep. Yep. Um, really happy to say different experiences these days. Um, may be the most bike friend you've played in New Zealand. What do you think? I think that's probably, uh yeah, um, and very happy to say that I'm in a relationship [00:06:00] with the woman who makes my heart sink every day. That's a love to hear. All right, then are you ready for the questions? Some light light and stay away. OK, Your questions answer Is a person identifies as bisexual. Does that mean that they are away? Um, they always [00:06:30] see they are and does, and I Well, to be honest, I'm pretty sure that all of those things have been said to me, so [00:07:00] I think I want to check it out with the audience. Are you cool with that? Yeah, it's funny. That's great. Take away your first lifeline. Ask the audience. What are they doing? Hands up. Do you think it's a How about me? They always wanna have presence. Don't be sure. I see They are bisexual [00:07:30] D. They are talking on video Game channel. It's probably what they do. Thank you so much. It feels like Yeah, I think so. I mean, I guess the, um you know, the confusion around transphobia sometimes comes from that big, isn't [00:08:00] it? But when we know that we're attracted to people of more than one gender that doesn't feel that relevant to me Threesomes? Yep. The there are bisexual people who want to have free. That's cool. But I'm gonna lock in De Nancy. Thank you. I consider it either anyway, so [00:08:30] this really, because basically, it means pretty much everybody won this prize. It is? Yeah. The prize is the right not to have your sexuality questioned again. Ever. I am not in a face. Right, Ok, very much. Thank you, Senator. I said love. And welcome up, Nathan. [00:09:00] Um, yes. So I'm Nathan, and, uh, I'm, uh, married with two stepdaughters and uh, and a cat and a four legged member of the family. And, um, I work at Victoria University in the law school, and I identify as bisexual and gender fluid. All right, so for you, we have quite an interesting question. [00:09:30] Witcher is most likely to be in hiding about their sexuality at home. That's a bisexual man. B, lesbians, C, bisexual women and D gay men. So we OK? Not sure about this one. Would you like to ask A Yes, I think I might. I might. [00:10:00] I might use 50 50 doesn't quite describe. I mean, but I'll use that. All right, We're going to take away two incorrect answers. So now you've been left with a and D bisexual man. Gay men. So what are you able to know? Well, look, um, So my original home was Australia, and I'm not out of in Australia. I'm not out at home, [00:10:30] so I think I might. The Tasman Sea is my beautiful wall. Um, so I think I might try a Ok, let's have a look and see. And the correct answer is bisexual. We're on the money and let's see who surprises you have won the right to be open about your sexuality in all situations without fear [00:11:00] of or violence. That's something bisexual. More like us and sexual. So thank you so much for your help today. And now we're going to in in Hi. Welcome to the We'd love to hear a couple of things from you. OK, so I am five and I've [00:11:30] been out for 3. 5 years. So, um, that took a long time. Um, And I have two wonderful kids, two girls and I'm a disability. Right, Cerf? Thank you, guys. And a fantastic upcoming element. Thanks. How did how did people take that? Um, Mixed reactions. Yeah. So, um, got the usual stuff. Um, that I'm gross and I'm greedy, um, alive obviously. [00:12:00] Um but the worst thing was that possibly my Children were not safe to be around me anymore. It's a horrible thing to say. Yeah, Yeah. OK, great. Are you ready to, uh, show the next question? Ok, let's go. So what is the figure for reported suicide attempts for both sex attracted students. So we just need to to share with the audience here that we're using that expression. Both sex attracted, uh [00:12:30] because that is what was in the study that was done. Some, some really important research. And that's how they phrased it. So we're we're going to use that phrase. It is unfortunate. Yeah. So let's look at the answers. A 0% being false. Sex attracted is the easiest. OK, B 4% the same as opposite sex attracted students. C 13% the same [00:13:00] as same sex attracted students and D 32%. That's 2. 5 times more than same sex attracted students. Um, I actually don't think that I'm the right person to answer this question next week, so yeah, I'd like to call my friend. Not yet. [00:13:30] I'd like to call my friend Paula. Let's let's get a Let's get a polar ring. It's now the right time now, you know. Hello, Paula. Hi, Paula. We have a question for you. Um, [00:14:00] your lovely friend Alexia is here on a game show called We want It all. And she has a question to her. She thinks you're a better person to answer this question. That is what is the figure of reported suicide attempts to both sex attractive Pacific students. So a 0% for being both. Sex attracted is easiest. B 4%. [00:14:30] Same as opposite. Sex attracted is probably with a lot of time visitors. I am using this with my DRA students. OK, girls. Now, um so C the same as same sex attacks. Students pull up or D 2. 5 times more. What do you think? That's just so [00:15:00] thank you. Oh, you got a OK, Thank you. So, um well, these are really suffering statistics. I'm gonna I'm gonna fast forward with this. I'm gonna look at the OK, Great. Let's look at what the real answer is. And, yes, we love it. Unfortunately, that is the truth. They are 2. 5 times more likely so [00:15:30] Very so. Indeed. I believe you're Paula, your friend. We should take Pass that over to Paula. Yeah, let's see what she's gonna say. Paula, what are what are your feelings on this? Actually, when? Because I'm from the islands, I when I relationship with with a female people, [00:16:00] I can discussion about it, but he was to be open about it either. Um, you don't see a lot of this. You don't see same sex relationship or even a against people being openly, um, attracted [00:16:30] to, um, or on a show. Yeah, it's quite OK. I'll. This must be to some degree responsibility of these Children out away in his shoulder. Much of these adults to make these [00:17:00] young adult feel, um, feel it to be your fear in itself is not the first of it. Not afraid, Al. Yeah. Thank you to Paula that she's made [00:17:30] a really important contribution to today. I, I thank you for bringing your friend in on this. It's really valuable. Ok, um just remind us how important it is that this message is going out into schools and that the important work that's being done there is continued and and built up. So, um yeah, thank you very much for bringing that extra dimension here today. Thanks, Alexia. Your price they deserve you have one the right [00:18:00] to an understanding family. We all deserve that one that is supportive of your partner's choices. No, your your partner choices What? Um and and no matter what they're doing, So you all right? Last of all. Let's welcome up, Katie. Hello, Kate. I hear we've heard from you in general. [00:18:30] Can I go. You Kay is famous for really just taking it away. Um, my name is Kate Jones. I've been out the first time I came out, I was about 15. And of course, as people may know Oh, no, you're not. Really. And so every time you know that that coming out over and over again. Um, but in recent years, I've also gradually been coming out has probably been on the autism spectrum. And it's one of the reasons I don't have thoughts. And [00:19:00] I don't really, you know, these boxes that say gender, I don't really understand them very much. And so yeah, sometimes I'll jump in and people sort of. But I I've always been enthusiastic to help both me take a little a long time. OK, The next question is how many? Both sex attracted students were binge drinking. A one in 10 who needs to drink B [00:19:30] One in six have as many as the same sex attracted students because they get half C one in three, the same as all other students or D one and two more than all the other students. Ok, what do you think? Well, I think that probably, uh actually so sorry about that. But sometimes you just don't get a chance. Well, ladies and gentlemen, you don't [00:20:00] understand. That's all. Um, but meanwhile, we have really appreciated having you as our intestines today. You have made all the difference. Um, helping us move your lifelines, Uh, just having your shining faces out there giving us support. And, uh, we would just all like to to give each other a mutual clap. We'll clap you and you clap us. And [00:20:30] what I'm gonna do now is I'm gonna pass it back to you. If I can say, Listen, who's got a couple of things to say? So thank you for everyone who's made the effort to come up early in the morning. We really appreciate you seeing your faces here. Um, I'm Sandra. I've been a member of the Bisexual Women's group here in Wellington for more than 25 years. Um, when I came out to my parents as bisexual in 1989 [00:21:00] my dad said to me that he didn't know any gay people, and what he meant by that was that he didn't think there were that many of us that we were quite invisible to him. So when we started planning, we want it all. We wanted a way to tell our bisexual stories that would capture people's attention, because often when we try and talk about bisexual people's lives and biphobia like Kay, our last contestant, we get ignored or shut down. [00:21:30] And that's a problem because Biphobia is literally killing bisexual people. That's literally killing us. Our rates of mental health, because it's so so hard for us to find places to belong, are the worst of all. Sexualities. Our rates of partner violence, of sexual violence and of alcohol and drug use are the worst of all sexualities, and we all know right that it's got nothing to do with being attracted to more than one gender [00:22:00] and everything to do with Biphobia. I guess for me it's about the kind of armour I wear when I go out into that straight sis world out there. I put on full body armour because I know that homophobia and biphobia and transphobia have taught the world to hate people like me, and I expect that I'm going to have to regularly challenge that for both myself and for the people that I love. [00:22:30] But when I'm here with you folks with my over and under and well and truly around the Rainbow family, I want to take at least some of my armour off and I can't always and these folks up here, some of whom are doing this kind of stuff for the first time today and all of the bisexual people who aren't here and they don't even know if they're welcome. They want to take off some of that armour, too, because [00:23:00] this should be home for us. We want it to be home for us. Most bisexual people only come out in bisexual groups because it's sometimes the only place that's safe for us when bisexual people contact me for support, I always say that coming out as a political act but that each person is the best judge of when that's safe for them to do that. So what I really want to leave you with today is if you think you don't know any real bisexual people, [00:23:30] if you think that there's no such thing as bisexual trans people or bisexual people of colour or bisexual disabled people, I'd like to say the same thing to you that I said to my father back in 1989 Please try and be a safe person for bisexual people to come out to. One way to start doing that is by saying the word bisexual. Every time you're talking about people in our communities, [00:24:00] she not hard. It's good. Another way is to mention biphobia and transphobia. Every time you mention homophobia, ask us what biphobia means because we know and ask us what we need to grow safer rainbow spaces for all people attracted to more than one gender because we need you. We need our rainbow family to help us deal with the horrors of biphobia. And we want to be part of the fight for human rights for people of all sexes, genders [00:24:30] and sexualities. So thanks very much and have a beautiful day at proud.

IRN: 1054
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/pacific_health_and_spirituality_proud_2016.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004419
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089713
TITLE: Pacific Health and Spirituality - Proud 2016
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Elizabeth Taylor; Gigi Baxter; Isikeli Vulavou; Joey Siosaia Joleen Mataele; Ken Moala; Sulique Waqa
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1990s; 2010s; Adams Bruce Ltd chocolate factory; American Samoa; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bangkok; Bible; Blueprint for the Provision of Comprehensive Care for Trans People and Trans Communities in Asia and the Pacific; Catholicism; Christianity; Elizabeth Taylor; Fiji; Fiji Human Rights Commission; Geneva; Gigi Baxter; HIV / AIDS; HIV testing data; Haus of Khameleon (Fiji); ILGA World; International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association (ILGA); Isikeli Vulavou; Jack Byrne; Joey Siosaia Joleen Mataele; Kapul Champion and Friends Frangipani Inc; Ken Moala; Louisa Wall; Love Patrol (tv); Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Methodist; Māori Television; National Party; Pacific; Pacific Region Commonwealth Youth Ministers Meeting (2015, Samoa); Pacific Sexual Diversity Network (PSDN); Papua New Guinea; Paris Principles; Port Moresby (Papua New Guinea); Presbyterian; Proud 2016 (Wellington); Queer theology; Rainbow Pride Foundation; STI; Samoa; Samoa AIDS Foundation; Save the Children; Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity (SOGI); Sulique Waqa; Sulivenusi Waqa; Switzerland; Tonga; Tonga Leitis Association; Universal Periodic Review (UPR); University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine; VPrideFoundation (Vanuatu); Vanuatu; Wellington; abstinence; access to health care; activism; choirs; church; colonisation; condoms; fa'afafine; fakaleiti; gender expression; gender identity; harassment; health; health care; hijra; hormone replacement therapy (HRT); hormone treatment; human rights; identity documents; imperialism; lobbying; marriage equality; missionary; pederasty; poofter; punishment; queer; religion; sex work; sexual abuse; sexual orientation; sexual violence; sexuality; spiritual dualism; spirituality; testing; theology; trans; transgender; transphobic violence
DATE: 10 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine, Mein Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the workshop: Pacific Health and Spirituality.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I start our session. Um, now and in the true Pacific spirit, we always value, um, the blessing of our heavenly father before any meetings. So I will ask, uh, the chair of the PSDNM ja male to start our session with a prayer. A short one. [00:00:30] And thank you, Julie. Um uh, and from the Pacific, we welcome you to the Pacific session, [00:01:00] uh, on LGBTI health, where we will be discussing and, uh, sharing with you some of the latest information on, uh, LGBTI health, Uh, in the Pacific and the format of the session. We will have two, key presentations at the beginning, and then after the pre, uh, after each of those presentations, we will give about five minutes. Uh, we'll open the floor to you to ask any questions [00:01:30] that you may have after the two presenters are done. Then we will have a panel discussion where I will invite three of our panellists also from the Pacific, to share some of the latest information on LGBTI health in their respective, uh, countries. And, uh, we will have the question and answer session for the for the panel at the [00:02:00] end of the presentation. of the final presenter. And then we will have Q and, uh, we will have Q and a S after that. And of course, we are always We will be here tomorrow and the day after tomorrow. And you can always, uh, ask us if you have any follow up. Um uh, questions. I am I will be chairing the session. And, uh, I'm the founder and executive director of the Rainbow Pride Foundation and also the deputy chair of the [00:02:30] Pacific Sexual Diversity Network, which is the only, um, registered and existing regional NGO for, um, working for the rights of LGBTI as well as their health and well being. And I'm also the regional advisory group member for the Asia Pacific Coalition on Male Sexual Health. Our first, uh, two presenters. [00:03:00] The first presenter is Mr Kalla, who is also one of the is a who is a human rights activist, uh, from Samoa, uh, and Australia. He currently lives in Australia. He founded the Samoan AIDS Foundation in 2004 and can received an award for human Rights for his work on HIV advocacy in the Pacific. He also co-founded [00:03:30] the Pacific Sexual Diversity Network in 2007, of which he currently works as a technical advisor. Ken is also a board member of the UH Glia Asia Pacific, the Gay and Lesbian International Sports and Human Human Rights Association Asia Pacific. He is also currently serving on the interim committee for ILJO. [00:04:00] He is a member of the outreach ministries for the Christian LGBTI Q people of faith in Australia and is presently doing theological studies for the ministry in Australia. He will be presenting on Christianity and access to sexual health care over to you, Mr Ken. Thank you all for coming. I know it's a very small room, but I'm sure we'll get through. Um, I'd like to dedicate this presentation to my grandparents who [00:04:30] were Christian missionaries to Papua New Guinea. But I also would like to dedicate this, uh, presentation to, uh, 11 of my, um, ministers and, uh, who was actually very instrumental and, uh, very informative of of nurturing me while I was very young. And his name is Reverend, who's just, um I cherish his memory at this moment and who his [00:05:00] daughter is in the room at the moment. Um, but before I start. I just want to give you just a brief outline on the situation of the, um the current situation of the church, Uh, in the Pacific. It is one of the very strong pillars of the Pacific society. In fact, it actually is a ruling it very instrumental and and have an impact on the lives of [00:05:30] people in the Pacific. Uh, with regards to LGBTI Q communities, it can pose a very strong challenge to our existence. Um, because of the traditions because of the colonialization, because of the missionaries that have had this, uh, very detrimental impact on us. But over the period of time, it [00:06:00] has taken a struggle for us as go on and on to come to our own. And that has been only recently in the last 2030 years that we have asserted ourselves and been tolerated by our society. What I am going to present to you may seem very radical, but bearing in mind that times change and we need to go with the change. [00:06:30] And, uh, but bearing in mind that we do hold great respect to with our our leaders of our society Uh, I am presently studying theology in in Australia and I want to be a spokesperson for the LGBT R community from the Pacific, counteracting all the the let's say harassment by the church. So there's no need actually to actually feel [00:07:00] just franchised or marginalised. I think we need to stand up to it. I think we need to really come forward and say, Look, we grew up in this framework. We need to address it, um, within the the boundaries that we have set ourselves. So I will start. And, uh, if you have any questions later, I'm only too happy to answer them. OK, ok, that just gives you an overview of the Pacific area, [00:07:30] which includes, uh, Polynesia, Micronesia and, uh, uh, Polynesia. And we're very fortunate to where PSDN has come over the, uh since its inception, and thank you to our our, our all our members who actually represent quite a big area in the Pacific. Um, there's 22 island territories and countries in the Pacific, and we have reached half of the amount [00:08:00] so far, so we've got a lot of work to do to reach out to all of the areas we have got to touch the French territories. Uh, we have, uh, the American Samoa. Uh, we've got to reach out to all the other territories. Um, but so you know, we have our work before us, and I know with the resurgence of of the various groups in these islands geographically, it's very challenging. OK, OK, Christianity [00:08:30] as a strategy against for queer people and sexual health care is based on what the mainstream and cultural forms of Christianity say about same sex behaviours. What are the Christian teachings that can combat discrimination and encourage access to sexual health care? It really appeals to four main streams. One is singular interpretations of Bible passages to spiritualistic dualism, [00:09:00] three Heter, heteronormative, Theo, theology and ethics and sex and for notions of prohibition and punishment, A very sort of wrong words. But basically I'll try to explain what they all mean. OK, it's sexual harassment in the Bible. It's actually Bible bashing. It's actually, uh, club of passages. They throw these passages at the Bible, especially in the context of the of Sodom [00:09:30] and Gomorrah. Uh, and they're only one liners. They we really need to examine the whole context in In which is written and This is what a lot of fundamental churches are doing. They they think that our community is going against God and the Bible. OK, it also appears to spiritualistic dualism. The soul is more important than the body. So this is what the mainstream churches have saved. [00:10:00] Uh, you're either able or disabled. There is holy or unholy soul or a body permanent or temporal man or woman, human or non spirit spirit matter for living or non living beings. OK, there's also this dualism. You know, it seems to touch no one has come as a link to each other. The soul, which consists of the church and God and the body sex being [00:10:30] gay, and HIV, for example have little to do with each other. The soul should be given more care than the body. So this is the thought of the, uh, mainstream theology, the Christian theology today, OK, just to give a bit of, um, theological background a Augustine of in the fourth century, uh, promoted that abstinence is better than marriage can be good to control, lust and produce Children. This [00:11:00] is the thinking back then and then we had the Saint Thomas aqui in 13 century Sex is legitimate only between men and women for the purpose of offspring. And then we have the Roman Catholicism distinguished between homosexual tendency and homosexual acts. The only legitimate sex the heteronormative sex going against divine order. Natural naturalness. OK, OK. Appeals also to notions [00:11:30] of prohibition and punishment Mainstream Christianity. HIV AIDS is not a punishment from God. Uh, this is, uh, determined in the Anglo Communion in 2002. They also said that HIV and AIDS are gay diseases which have have merited the wrath of God and just just punishment from transgression. And I deserve to be punished mentality. OK, what are Christian teachings that can combat [00:12:00] discrimination encourage access to sexual health? So we really need to appeal to the overarching message of Christianity. We also need to appeal to the alternative interpretations of the Bible. We need to appeal to queer theology. We also need to appeal to our the theologies of HIV and a ID. OK, what does all that mean? Ok, The Bible is a record of testimonies of ancient people's experiences [00:12:30] of God. The Bible has been and continues to be interpreted. The club of passages I explained before can be interpreted differently. Uh, sexual violence, pride, lack of hospitality, erroneous translations over indulgence and sexual pleasure and fidelity to God going against one's usual sexual disposition. Sexual violence. The consequence. Not cause of sin. Her true [00:13:00] normative ideas of sex but the Bible scholars really meant, remains a mystery. Therefore, the Bible cannot be used as a tool for homophobia and transphobia. OK, let's This is what we need to see in the message of Christianity. The core message of created Christianity is love and non judgement. And those are scriptures referring to that queer theology. [00:13:30] What is queer theology? It's contextual theology, using the experience and knowledge of LGBTI Q people to theologies, theologies, interrogating nominative religious and theological identities and boundaries. Queer theology affirms three important issues. The incarnation of Christ is proof that all bodies are potentially sacred. All of our creation is good and part of God's diverse creativeness. The borderless [00:14:00] body of Christ is parallel to the borderless bodies of the LGBTI Q people. OK, uh affirming to appeal to affirming theologies of HIV and aids. Christ is the head. Christians are the body. Christ. The Body of Christ has AIDS to reach out to people living with HIV A. I DS is to reach out to Christ himself. Christian communities are all connected if one part suffers. All part suffers [00:14:30] first Corinthians 5 26 reflecting Christ by reaching out, reaching out to people living with HIV and AIDS. People living with HIV and AIDS are bearers of God's mission to other people living with HIV and AIDS, and to those who are HIV negative appreciating life more deeply. OK, let's see what, uh, I know it could be high winded at the moment, but the whole idea is to give [00:15:00] the theological approach to what people say about queer people. So what Christianity say about queer people? So the first thing is singular interpretations of biblical passages. Second of the spiritual, uh, spiritualistic dualism, the Heteronormative, theology and ethics and sex and four notions of Prohibition and Punishment. Christianity can be used as a strategy for queer people when it appeals to the [00:15:30] alternative interpretation of the Bible, the overarching messages of Christianity, queer theology and affirming the theologies of human of HIV and aids. OK, uh, just these are the points of of discussion that we may have some time. What are the intersecting perceptions of gender, sexuality, sex and Christianity that influence the sexual behaviour of queer people, especially men who have sex with men and transgender people [00:16:00] in your own cultural context and experiences? OK, what are the main evidence based factors in Christianity driven phobia that obstructs access to sexual health care in your own contextual context and experiences, especially for a men have with men and transgender people. So I'm just gonna leave it like that because otherwise it will just get above our heads. But I'm gonna throw it over to [00:16:30] to our panel to to just to give you an overview of what is happening on the ground in in the Pacific and how this affects, you know, what is the the the the the discussion on these issues that I've brought up and how their communities are affected. So thank you very much. Thank you very much. Uh, Ken, let's give him a round of applause. [00:17:00] Uh, we'll take in one or two questions before we move on to the next, uh, presentation. If not, we will now move on to the next, uh, presentation on transgender people's transgender people. Health needs in the Pacific, and the presentation will be done by M Sulik Wang, who is a Fijian transgender activist, [00:17:30] feminist and human rights defender who has worked on LGBTI Q issues, um, of the Pacific region for the past 13 years. Uh, she founded a transgender women led movement in Fiji, which is called the House of Chameleon, and this used to be a project, uh, under the Fiji Arts Council. For six years now, Sulik has been the chief coordinator of the popular anti pageant, a transgender [00:18:00] pageant in Fiji, and she sits also as a member of the Hibiscus Festival Committee under the Hibiscus Events group. Sulik also serves as a member of the Asia Pacific Transgender Network Regional Steering Committee, and she is also a board member of the Ilg Oceania Miss Luke. Thank you, Kelly. Thank you so much for the opportunity to speak. Thank you to the co convenor PSDM as well as And I know that Jack [00:18:30] is also a special mention to Jack because I'll be, you know, picking some key summary recommendations from these blueprints that we were part of last year in terms of the consultation that happened in Nepal Bangladesh as well as in Bangkok. And we will to be present in Bangkok from the Pacific through the Pacific Sexual Diversity Network to be able to put in our submissions and recommendations towards the trans situations health needs of trans people in the Pacific. And I think it's also great that you [00:19:00] know that we have two key people in the room because it's also going to be showcasing some of the the realities and the situation of, you know, from the consultation until now. So basically this really wonderful looking yellow book, the blueprint for the provision of comprehensive care for trans people and trans communities in Asia and the Pacific is a basically a tool to improve access to competent primary and specialised care for trans people in the Asia Pacific region. A particular focus, [00:19:30] uh, thematic focus that I'll be looking at is around the human rights standard of trans people commitments under the International Human Rights Law, as well as monitoring compliance with human rights obligation. One of the wonderful things that we did last year in terms of engaging with Elga World was the submission of Fiji's universal periodic review when we were under review. So we were able to make submissions for to do a presentation in Geneva. So that's one of the ways in which we continue to engage with [00:20:00] ILGO World as well as ILGO Oceania in terms of lobbying at the UN level and also at the international level in terms of improving the lives of and the promoting the rights of transgender people. One of the things that I also wanted to particularly focus on today I really was trying to push for a, you know, just for a minute during the New Zealand Human Rights Commission presentation today. Uh, in terms of how we can also look towards [00:20:30] New Zealand, as you know, one of the key players in the Pacific as well as Australia, not just in terms of regionalism, but also, you know, if you look at the role that they play in the Pacific Island Foreign Secretariat, we also see big role. The New Zealand Human Rights Commission can play in terms of strengthening the national human rights institutions in the Pacific, particularly for Fiji, who have experienced, you know, military coup in 2006, and we have a dysfunctional human Rights Commission some of the duties and the powers [00:21:00] that the Human Rights Commission that's supposed to be, You know, focusing on is no longer there in terms of, you know, fulfilling its role under the Paris principles and its, you know, ability to make sure that it facilitates mechanism and processes where we trans women can access redress in court in terms of violations of our human rights. And I think we have a lot to learn in terms of the study that Jack was part of as a commissioner. And that's also one of the things that I wanted to push in [00:21:30] terms of region to have a study. That's one of the challenges that that big gap in the Pacific is that we don't have credible up to date information and evidence to inform our intervention, and that's one of the areas that I really want to work on. One of the priorities in terms of this blueprint as well is the sexual and gender based violence of transgender women, and I know that these two wonderful women here from the Maia they're doing their own, uh, you know, ways in which they are going to be focusing on S, GB V. One of [00:22:00] the things that we're doing this year is a big research on transgender women violence in Fiji. This is going to be the first for Fiji that the house of chameleon that I'm part of is going to be facilitating. We're working with the Fiji Women's Rights Movement and with kind support from the European Union. So that's something to look forward to in terms of, you know, further on the recommendation and working with policy makers and government to be able to implement some of the recommendations from here. And we really looking forward to this and yeah, we [00:22:30] looking forward to sharing it as well with PSGN and also engaging with, uh, PSDN on so many other levels. The other thing, uh, in terms of the Trans of Blueprint is the access to hormonal therapy for transgender women. Just recently, I decided to late last year to go through H RT. One of the unfortunate thing in the Pacific for transgender women is that we have no access to hormonal [00:23:00] pills. So when I I had the opportunity to go back to Bangkok, I managed to work with a few friends there who were supplying pills to me, but unfortunately, uh uh, just, you know, in terms of replenishing my next talk, I couldn't do that because there was virtually none. So that's one of the issues in terms of access to, uh, gender affirming services and treatment in Fiji. [00:23:30] Yeah, I think it's just about it, because I really wanted to also look at Papua New Guinea. Some of the labels development that is taking place in terms of access to treatment for transgender women who's living with HIV as well as, uh, who is working on some, uh, a few projects in collaboration with us as well. Sorry, Jack. Do you wanna add some stuff? Thank you very much. Uh, for the, uh, short, [00:24:00] uh, presentation highlighting the two priority, um, transgender health issues in the pacific. And, uh, there are many more, uh, issues that they face. And these are recorded on the on the trans health blueprint. Um, book that Sulik was showcasing earlier. Are there any questions for If not, we'll keep moving on [00:24:30] to the ask me questions now. And like this today we were talking. We were listening to yesterday at the Trans health consultation like a lot of stuff around medication and all that. It's like I. I could see the Pacific like we were, like, lost in the conversation. It's because, you know, we haven't reached the stage where we actually have that conversation, but it was also interesting to like Listen to some of the the work that's currently going. You know, just listen to some of the challenges that are facing but that intersex people [00:25:00] and trans people face in terms of, uh, genderen citizens, this name in Fiji, there is considerable, uh, Indian originated community. I noticed that there are no no no people from, um, alternative sexualities and in the room from Fiji. But can you tell me to what extent it is, um, is alternate Sexuality is acknowledged in [00:25:30] the Indian community, and it's not or without an issue in terms of the representation of in terms of representation in terms of how the relations between the two. I hate to use the word race because there's there's no such thing, the short code that we used to talk about, people who are different, but what I'm asking, Is there any, um, [00:26:00] what are the relationships between indigenous people and non indigenous people in terms of the same same sex experience. And I don't use the term in, uh, term, um, gay men by trans bisexual in this context, because I use the term men to men and women to women because I think it reflects that they, uh, they a different set of focus. So my question is, um do you have any contact with or any knowledge [00:26:30] of, or any involvement with the, uh, sorry the Indo Fiji community in your organisations or in your work? That's the folks and there are none of them here today. That's one of the things that we've worked with. We have a lot of trans activists who are I don't we don't call, they not. They don't self identify as hater, even though they have a history. I. I have been in wedding where where they have performed. Yeah, but one of the misconceptions, particularly for the [00:27:00] women's movement as well as for the LGT movement, is that we assume that they call themselves as haters. But most of them do not identify themselves as rich, even though they have that history. As you know, those that came through the indeed Labourers system. Most of them would just identify themselves as transgender because of the roles that is expected when you are a hija and the, you know, the the the religion and all of that, they do not. But we have we've worked with. We have a coalition called the Fiji LGBT Coalition. We [00:27:30] have a group for specifically for, uh, Fijian community of Indian descent. They are activists working in the ground. We have members of the House of chameleon who are transgender of Indian descent, who who who continue to engage with us. We have an activist, Chris Prasad, who's been one of the key players and all of that in terms of race relations and all of that. It's we don't Yeah, OK, you've answered my question, but there is a presence [00:28:00] and you are interacting, which was which was the point of my movement because we have indigenous people here. But we don't have any of the people who came to Fiji as a result of the imperial, even the imperial process, not the colonial process, but the imperial process. We don't if any of those people represent here and in New Zealand at this conference. We don't have any from that tradition. From what I can see or any from the as the East Asian communities. [00:28:30] That's my point. I think the point is made. So yes, we need to ask the Pacifica community because you come from these religious dominated societies with looking at another example of Ireland, which was completely dominated by the Roman Catholic Church, in which recently the people all voted by an overwhelming majority of that [00:29:00] draws whether that gives you any inspiration or or or learning that can be applied to your own situations. I've talked to the Irish activists about how they've managed to because they've got gains, gender recognition in Ireland as well, as well as marriage equality. And to be honest, one of the reasons why they think they've been unable to achieve it at this time is because of the huge stigma and lack of faith in the Roman Catholic Church [00:29:30] because of the sexual abuse. Um, you know, stories that have come, you know, all of those experiences have come out and been exposed, and so so when when the minister is speaking from the pulpit and saying a particular line, the authority has been hugely undermined in in an Ireland because of sexual abuse and the numbers of people actively involved in the churches plummeting an Ireland. So that's a different context from [00:30:00] That's why people say that it it it created a space where people were willing to to not just listen to what the church told them to do. But in the Pacific, there's also change, and it differs from one country to another. I can only speak to Fiji. In the past, we used to have, uh, the dominant church marching against like having special marches to march against gay people. Uh, and that was when they were trying to introduce Sochi into a Constitution [00:30:30] back in 1997 I think. But now we are working with the churches, uh, the organisation I founded. We're working with that church, the Methodist Church, which is the dominant um, which has the most members in Fiji, and things have started to change. They allowed us to have a candlelight peace vigil in one of the main churches in the city on Ida Hot in 2014, and they have also started writing um, op-ed [00:31:00] on Ida Hot and uh, asking the church members to be more compassionate and loving towards, uh, people of LGBT. OK, so change is happening. I think one of the reasons that we have the changes because of the change in the constitution. If you see from 1997 to now, we will then call us a Christian state with the 1997 constitution. But with the change of the 2013 Constitution and with the addition of sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression [00:31:30] in the Bill of Rights in the Constitution, we also now a circular state despite, you know, Fiji being a very multi religious, multi racial society. So it you have, you know, that kind of sort of enable, uh, some conversation to take place in terms of the church working along with the LGBT groups in the present climate in Samoa. It's a long way of coming to that situation. Um refer [00:32:00] to, um to give explanation, uh, through certain law reforms that has come about through their situation. Well, currently, we have just recently completed the the the The Revision to our Crimes Ordinance Act now becomes that was crimes, or in 1961 now becomes Crimes Act 2011 12 and so 12 [00:32:30] So that this building in a couple of our legislation that we actually submitted for, like, the impersonation and this between Decision act between Male But unfortunately, we couldn't happen to change the topic, change the still But, um, many other, um, all our legislation and old one, that is the purpose of our reform Commission that has been set up by government recently is to [00:33:00] actually review all the business information legislation that we have. And, um, I'm sure along the same line and in the future we will, of course, lobby where, uh, for for the methods that pertaining to us and also the same sex marriage that the UN is still pushing for us to to lobby for with our leaders. So yeah, but, um, at the moment, we was just doing [00:33:30] fine. We living in harmony, and, uh, we just don't want to stir things up. We just take it one step at a time. But in saying that there needs to be dialogue between the community and the churches. Uh, we need to make those approaches, and I believe they're doing that in in Fiji as well as Tonga through the advocacy of joy. But it's important that we start to to actually make them aware of of of the situation we are in. And that's where you know Building [00:34:00] Bridges is is coming into play. Our work is actually because it's never been, I don't know, but it's never been happening before that we actually get to face down face to face with the church leaders. But recently we've been doing, um, uh workshops with them And, you know, I'm very glad that we actually come face to face with them. And they, um you know, they've been bracing us with all the work that we do, but then at the, uh, you know that I don't know what else is there, but, [00:34:30] uh, we still face problems with some of the non mainstream churches, you know, the new ones, like the a OG and all that. But with with our main one is Catholic and Methodist. But we still have faced problems with the new the new I don't know what it's called, but we we've been calling home the new established churches. Those are the ones that actually, um, time and time again. They always say stuff about us that we are. [00:35:00] We are law breakers. So we are. But otherwise our main church are with us all the way, and they traditional, but they they do understand our issues and our our our way of life. But, um, we will never start from there. We will continue with our work to allow for more fans and more sponsor there so they can assist us further with our work with them. But I believe that it's a matter of keep on knocking and always continue [00:35:30] to have those conversations with them. Uh, data gatherings. Thank you, Roger. So, um, if you have any questions, we can You can ask those questions again at the end of the panel discussion. Uh, we will now move on to the panel discussion. And other three colleagues that would be in the panel include, uh, Miss Joy. Miss, uh, here am I right, Miss Julio Baxter and Miss Elizabeth Taylor from, uh, PNG. [00:36:00] Who would like to go first? Miss Taylor Taylor. OK, miss, uh, Elizabeth Taylor. She's from, um PNG. She works for the Save the Children, uh, back in PNG under their sexual and reproductive health. Uh, programme. Uh, programme. Um particularly in the area of, uh, transgender and sister health. Uh, she's their clinic coordinator, and she's a trans activist and a human rights defender. [00:36:30] She's also a member of the carpool champion, which is a group of men with diverse sexuality and transgender, uh, people organisation. And she's also part of the French, uh, friends friendship, which is a sex worker organisation. Um, over to you, Miss Taylor. Thank you. And thank you for the, um organising this conference and bringing [00:37:00] us here for us to share our issues back in the Pacific, especially. I'm gonna present about issues related to human rights and health in Papua New Guinea. Before I go on, I'll talk a little bit about the background of couple Champion. What it is like couple champion is a human rights. Uh, base, uh, focus on the national advocacy for men who have sex with men and transgender individuals in Papua New [00:37:30] Guinea. What couple champion, do we advocate and promote the rights of MS M and transgender individual in the country? We educate and empower members to take responsibilities of their behaviours and fight against HIV and AIDS We work closely with several service providers so they can provide conducive and friendly and environment for our members. And also we advocate for the law reform, especially the decriminalisation or rule of the Law on [00:38:00] Sodom and indeed in Dissent Act section 2, 10 and 2 12 of the Criminal Act of Papua New Guinea. PN is failing to adequately protect rights of LGBTI. PNG continues to enforce laws, criminalise concessional sex between men more. It does not enact any laws or policies that protect against decriminalisation [00:38:30] on the basics of sexual orientation, gender identity and intersex status. This has resulted in widespread of social discrimination, including difficulties accessing police protection from violence, health services and employment. Transgender people are more likely than other groups to face stigma and discrimination in existing health services. Transgender people are particularly stigmatised when presenting [00:39:00] for health checkup, test and treatment in relation to possible sexual transmitted infection. This impediment to accessing health care services not only proportionately affect this vulnerable population, but generally the leads to the high prevalence rate of HIV epidemic among trans gender people in Papua New Guinea, the National health plan in 2011 to 2020 does not make any mention [00:39:30] of transgender pets and other members of LGBTI community. As a result, the national plan does not address the specific risk and vulnerability facing LGBTI pets and especially transgender women. The risk included the risk of IV infection as a result of criminalization of same sex relations, as well as mental and physical health issues arising from a rising to a rate of discrimination and physical [00:40:00] and sexual violence in the country. Transgender people are not able to freely seek health services due to a rate of stigma and disc and counter that clinic clinic clinicians often stigmatised and discriminate then when they seek health services. This has caused many LGBTI people, especially transgender women, to withdraw from seeking health services in the country. There are several cases where transgender people die due to lack of treatment of HIV related [00:40:30] illnesses. There is no profile statistic and M MA system in place to capture transgender people. Accessing health facilities, like most of the datas, are always captured on the male and female. There is no pre exposure prophylaxis is available in health facility for trans people to access with that, um, just to conclude the eight. I would just, uh, state out the recommendation here, especially to [00:41:00] other Pacific countries that PNG will need lobby support from other Oceania countries, especially from Fiji and New Zealand, to, uh, this this criminalization of same sex law, which, uh, in regards to the U PR that was submitted to to be presented in July, guarantee that public health system provide comprehensive quality service that acceptable [00:41:30] and accessible to trans people and appropriate training is provided to health care providers to address transgender issues in that country. UN bodies. And you got to E Council in Pacific country like PNG, we do have a council that's, um, to reveal the policy or the impact impact means HIV many men and prevents an act which does not protect the rights [00:42:00] of transgender people. It's more like broad covering men and women. Transgender people are not involved in that act. And also we need trans specialists available to provide health care and counselling services to trans people who are HIV positive or seeking other health related issues. Thank you. And with that, I'm gonna give a case like John Paul of our one of our 20 experience when she was accessing [00:42:30] a clinic back in what must be the name because of confidentiality. I describe a different name, but the story is what she told me. Miss Tony is a transgender woman from Central Province, Papua New Guinea. She had some, and they need to seek medical advice from a doctor. She went to a government clinic and waited on the queue to be saved while waiting, she noticed that the doctor had no and several other patients who are arriving after her. When [00:43:00] it was finally time to see the doctor. The doctor might say to wait further While she was waiting, the doctor left the clinic through the back door without saving it. She was dismayed. Minutes later, when she landed, a doctor departed to avoid providing her with a consultation. Thank you. That's all. Thank you very much. Uh, Ms Taylor for sharing, uh, PNG experience. And, uh, we hope to discuss that further, Um, after [00:43:30] all the presentations are made, uh, our next presenter is Miss Julio MGI Baxter from, uh, via she does a lot of, uh, activist, uh, work around the islands of Vanuatu and have also, um, done done some work across the Pacific in Cook Islands, Tonga and Fiji. And, uh, she, in fact, is [00:44:00] a TV star from, uh, a popular Pacific TV show called Love Patrol. It is aired on Maori TV in New Zealand. Um, and Love Patrol is A to local production by an NGO called one small bank that, uh, confronts issues in the Pacific region and LGBT. Uh, human rights is one of the [00:44:30] one of the main issues. That's, uh, sort of incorporated into, uh, the narratives that are are shown in the programme. Gigi is, in fact, also the leader for V Pride Foundation, which is an LGBT movement in Vanuatu. And she also currently serves as the secretary to the PSDN, uh, board. And, uh, she is currently a student [00:45:00] also with the Australian Pacific Technical College doing a diploma in human rights and good governance and leadership. Miss Thank you. Good afternoon, everyone. Um, I will not talk much about fee pride because I'll just give you the word press website that we are on so you can read it at your own time and also with our Facebook page. And you have any questions? Just flick us a message. Um, but I'll just tell you specifically. On what? Pride. [00:45:30] Um, just a little bit about free pride. Um, pride provides the opportunity for members to learn and to involve, um, in peer education. Uh, this is by, um, by the, um our local NGO clearly already mentioned. And then we get funding from, uh, NZ a and, um D a, um, topics that we cover is sexual health, reproductive health, HIV and SD I teenage pregnancy and other health related issues. Peer education. [00:46:00] Um, we do a lot of peer education because we find it's a It's a tool that we get to engage with the community. And, um um, addressing those issues, we find that we build up a relationship with the community to help them understand our issue as well. Um, not only that, we talk about the issues that the whole community face, but indirectly, we sensitise them to, uh, get them to understand our lives as an LGBT. Person. Um, [00:46:30] we have a safe space, uh, called, um, campus in Isla campus. Means come, come and see us. Uh, the name campus head is, um, that was put on is not, um it's not to stigmatise anybody, but it's It's a friendly, um, and attractive place where everyone just come in. Um, even if you walk into that clinic or wherever that space, um, no one can discriminate you or you feel [00:47:00] stigmatised because everyone knows that you will go and look for H and everyone will assume that Oh, this person might have HIV or this person is gay and is entering this year. So it's, um that's why we put that name, um, campus. Um, at the moment, the group is doing a, um, in collaboration with PSD. And they're doing a Pacific um, well, collaboration with PSDN and U NDP And also, uh, UN SW a study on Pacific multicultural, [00:47:30] multi country mapping and behavioural study on HIV and SD. I risk vulnerability among key populations. And, uh, just last week, we have, um, recruited some members of our, um of the to, um to get involved. Um, so these are the things that we've been doing, uh, the challenges that we faced, Uh, I think, um, kind of already touched base on it. So, um, the Christian influence that we have back home, I [00:48:00] think that's one thing that we still, uh, they use Bible. They they prosecuted that the local, um, the community are still prosecuting us again with the with the Bible. Um, it's very challenging. Um, because most of the members are, um well, members are from, um, from chiefly from backgrounds or family, and they could not express themselves or be comfortable of themselves. Therefore, [00:48:30] they come out to us. Um, uh, because of myself that I'm from, um from also from a chiefly background and I'm being myself. So they feel like coming through me and I talk with them. Helps them to, uh, to find their own, um, comfortable space. Um, also. Oh, um, yeah. And our cultural background. Um, because we are also a multicultural [00:49:00] country. Some of the parts of the, um, the country, um, they they originate from Tonga and Samoa. So we do not have a local terminology, um, of a like because the different of different terminologies. Like for some parts of the country. They use the word and, um yeah, and there's some other terminologies. And, um, I think [00:49:30] with what we are doing, Yes. So the understanding is not well communicated across because some people are still using cultural background and a Christian influence to fight against us. Um, another thing as well is amongst just the LGBT community. Those who of us who are well educated once they are successful and they're up there, they forget about the others who are done. Um, from the grassroots level that do not communicate [00:50:00] or do not want to assist, uh, any of us like, for example, if those of those of us who were in the session yesterday I did touch base on about it. And, um, I was Karl K did a demonstration that, uh, in in the conclusion of the, um on the condition of her presentation. And that was one thing that, uh, is very important that I think for us, man, to, uh, we need to get that addressed [00:50:30] because it's, uh, it it it feels like just amongst the LGBT community, we are being discriminated amongst other members. Yes, So, um yeah, I think I'll stop from there. Thank you. Ok, thank you very much. Uh, for the very informative, uh, presentation on the situation in Vanuatu. And, uh, we hope that in the discussion, we will be able to discuss, uh, more about that. Now we will move on to [00:51:00] our final, uh, panellist Miss Julie Jolene Male who will share with us a little bit about the experience. So let me introduce Uh um, an introduction is way too long, and, uh, I'm the runner for this network. OK, um, [00:51:30] I'm gonna be fast, because we don't have, uh, too much time for for this presentation, because I'm running a a whole workshop on my own, um, tomorrow at, 01 o'clock, I think. Or something like that. Um, yeah, at one o'clock, um, and then I will share the whole history of To lay as and how he started and everything. Um, [00:52:00] but, um, I'm just going to be touching base on what's really going on at the moment. Because the association started in 1992 because of the first transgender person, Um, that was infected with aids in 1987. And, um, from 1987 to 1992 4 doctors, um, decided to put together together [00:52:30] with the help of S PC and a member of parliament, the first female member of Parliament, Mrs. Papi together the ladies, um, community and see what they can do to educate the LGBT um uh, communities which is more driven by the transgender community, and they're more visible. Ok, um so by 1992 [00:53:00] we finally were able to put together everything. And, um, we got the the the, um uh, the network registered in the government as an NGO. And, um, from since 1992 to 2016, uh, 100. And now we have 148 members. Um, registered members [00:53:30] from that's from the whole 140 uh, islands inhabited islands of to and to is is, um uh contains of three groups of island which is to the group and of a group. Um, so our results that just came in from the HIV, uh, has [00:54:00] been all negative, and we've been negative right through. OK, so it was hard at first to get to actually, when we first started, it was quite hard for for us to get our members to actually test it to be tested because everybody had a fear of being talked about or being found out that you've got ST I or HIV. But then we went through. We went through quite a few consultations with our members. And they were, [00:54:30] um, with they were ok with the idea, but they didn't. They still didn't want to go to the lab or the hospital. So what we did was we asked the lab people to come to a retreat centre. I mean, retreat, um, to our annual retreat that we usually do and get the testing done over there. Ok, so it was a bit weird because there was no confidentiality over [00:55:00] there, and yet we were trying to get away from the confidentiality at the hospital. You know, um uh, being being baptised over there because every time you walk into the lab, the people that are sitting around there waiting to be examined or something are going Mm, There's another victim. And, uh but, you know, it got to the point that we were called a DC aids. When you walk down the road, you know, a a DC. [00:55:30] But we got over it. Um, but since then, the TL a has been leading the HIV programme. Uh, HIV awareness programmes in Tonga throughout Tonga. Um and, um, we have an an an an HIV animal test. We're the only ones who are, um, who are out there in public distributing condoms. When [00:56:00] we first started doing that in the early nineties, it was the biggest joke ever because the Methodist Church or the Wesleyan Church totally went against it. The Catholic were OK. And then they went no. And but then I went with one of the nuns that we were in the same HIV national, um [00:56:30] HIV Stakeholders Committee, Um, and asked the the the bishop, who is the cardinal now, Um, how can we address HIV? You know, um and and and and promote condom condom use for our youth because at the end of the day, we have to protect their lives, you know? So instead of the cardinal turned around and [00:57:00] said, OK, go and do whatever you want to do. But don't promote it like how it is done everywhere else. Use it as a tool to make sure that that they know that if there's anything to protect them, there's something there for them. But don't try and make them convince them that they can just go and have sex all the time. And there's something there for them, you know, like so as [00:57:30] long as we had the OK from him, it's fine. But of course, we still had backlashes from other people that didn't like it, you know, from the church. But then that didn't stop us from doing it. Especially a nun who was actually an auntie of mine. And, um and, um then she got pulled up, pulled off from the project, and, uh, then we tried again, Um, with some of the other members, uh, approaching the cardinal [00:58:00] again to for the, uh, Christian families, uh, network within the church to try and promote health issues, HIV and everything. So now that is working, you know? So it's just I. I think it was just a matter of explaining consultations with members with the leaders of the groups and telling them what it what it's all about. It's not just condom, you know, um, it's [00:58:30] all about health, because what we had to actually put there when we started showing them that the, you know, the, um the what the present our presentation was all about and all that. The first question was, Why do you come to us? Why don't you just concentrate with the or the queers or the trends or the whatever. Because they're the ones who are out there using their bodies in sinful things. And, you know, and [00:59:00] then we had one thing good about having your data. Your HIV test data is to show them the LGBT community are all HIV free. The ones that are sick now are the so-called church goers, you know. And so that's how we were able to get into their brains, you know, to actually make sure that you have your proof to make them believe you [00:59:30] so that when that has break that barrier a little, You know, we still have a little ups and down from from other churches, Um, and a But, uh uh, One thing that that, um, that we are still trying to go through now is instead of concentrating on on, uh, on HIV, we're trying to go into the [01:00:00] registration, um, to try and see if we can change some of the laws. You know, um, now we have passed the the the family protection. Uh, bill, we've passed the, um the gender. Uh, policy. Um, they've passed the name change so you can change your name. from John to Mary. Now, you know, um but still, you still can't change the ID from [01:00:30] male to female. You know, Uh, so those are the the things that we're trying to go through now? Um, yeah. I think I better stop here to let you guys ask, uh, ask some questions and bear in mind. I will be covering all of this with the story and my story tomorrow. Thank you. Ok, thank you very much. Uh, Joey GG and, uh, Miss [01:01:00] Taylor, for your short, uh, presentation, we will now open the floor for questions. Yeah, well, one question I had was about us as activists at a like, you know, those of you in countries I know. So not everyone here might know what the universal periodic review is, but it's It's a chance when your government reviews all of its human rights laws so and in lots of parts of the world. Ji communities [01:01:30] have used that because sometimes lesbians tried to use the convention. That's about the rights of women. Um, but there isn't a convention that's about the rights of of soI. So the U PR has sometimes been seen as a place where we can do that and I know Tonga has done. You've got some soI recommendations out of your U PR. You've done a submission, the one in Fiji for probably Maybe it's the first one in the Pacific. It talks about the rights of lesbians in the Pacific as well. And then you've [01:02:00] done one for Papua New Guinea and I don't know what other parts have. And and the other thing about the U PR process is that the you write your your submissions and then the people that question your government are governments from other parts of the world. So someone from the New Zealand delegation in Geneva will decide when Tonga comes up when when Papua New Guinea comes up, when Fiji comes up. Of all the issues that all the NGO S asked, they [01:02:30] will pick a couple that they will ask questions about and can we help by lobbying them so that they ask the JI question and what is the most effective way for us to do that is that the final decision will be made by the by our national Party that's in power is, would it be most effective for those of you from the Pacific community who know national Party MP S to be talking to them like I'm just wondering, what does it look like when New Zealand [01:03:00] tells the Pacific off for so stuff? And what's the way that the Pacific is most likely to listen and that it's most likely to create dialogues between Pacific people here and Pacific people in your own countries in any thoughts you know, be might have some thoughts on. We've had cases where we presented our our report to the in Geneva, the Fiji, the last U PR. We presented our report the Fiji government and [01:03:30] we had two recommendations specifically from Chile and Germany that was based on Sochi and those recommendations was taken in by the Fiji government and we've been following up with them in terms of pushing implementation. And those recommendations was the implementation and the making sure that the Constitution, the provisions of the Bill of Rights around Sochi, is harmonised around domestic laws, it is implemented throughout. That's still one of the challenge in terms of, you know, like I said yesterday, the implementation and the interpretation of the Constitution. [01:04:00] One very good example was the dismissal of the high court case of the transgender woman who was seeking legal gender recognition in Fiji's High Court last week. Yeah, and you know, we still but in terms of actually lobbying with international community and partners like and that can, you know, mobilise countries and foreign missions in Geneva, I think it's very effective, particularly for Australia, New Zealand. It could well be a collective, but we're actually doing something that of [01:04:30] the same, um, and like, everything that that each of you has spoken about is actually is quite important. So you see, we have those are the things that we need to be considering we actually raising, um, those issues in our homelands. Um, just following on on the D PR. Um, so So I I'm based in Geneva. Um, and you know what? We often, uh, advise [01:05:00] activists is to lobby, Um, you know, the the the embassies back home. But of course, in a lot of the Pacific countries, the embassies won't be there. So you you know you won't have a Chilean embassy there. You won't have a German embassy there, So I think maybe what people based in New Zealand and Australia can do is work together with you to then communicate with the embassies that are in the region as well as then you, you know, to you lobby your capital back home and then, you know, we [01:05:30] also help to lobby the go the the missions in Geneva. Um, following on on that as well. I just recently had the experience of going to New York, um, during the human Rights day events. And I think that that's also another area that we tend to leave out the General Assembly and the missions there because, um, the US, you know, has a very, very strongly funded multi multi pronged right wing, um, lobby calendar. And they are [01:06:00] They are in New York all year round, lobbying all the states. So all the states are represented in Geneva. And I think also, you know, to not forget that, you know, to try and speak to the missions in Gene, uh, sorry in New York and not just concentrate all the time in Geneva because they get a lot of right wing action targeted at them and and we don't have the resources there for our voice to be heard there. So just just to one of the challenges that also, [01:06:30] in terms of like lobbying straight through missions in New York is that sometimes it's not always agreed at capital like you can have the missions in New York agree on certain things. But when you come to capital, it's like, OK, no, you should be taking direction. We don't agree to that statement. We don't agree to that tax exchange and all that. So I think it's also very important to sort of, like, you know, making sure that at Home Capital you are also pushing in terms of the foreign affairs and making sure that, you know they are [01:07:00] on the same level that foreign missions one of the, uh, experience in terms of lobbying within the country. Uh, in PNG in 2012. Uh, with the help of the community development minister, we submit a bill to decriminalise the sex work and, um, sodomy act of same sex relationship to the parliamentary and within the country. But it was, um, rejected because only the out of 109 [01:07:30] members in the only three voted for it, and the rest didn't voted for So this bill is still pending in the parliament. So we're still working around the clock to, um, the consultations and dialogue within the country to try and revive the bill again. Thank you. Uh, Miss Dia? Any other questions? Yes. Thank you for your, uh, informative [01:08:00] presentations. Um, I just wanted to pick up on that point about, um, change and the pace of change and and the Pacific and the influence of the of the church because I think someone mentioned that it is slow. I mean, in different spots, it is slow, but, um, I think that, um it's important that it's great that we take this time to kind of acknowledge that it is happening and to highlight where it is happening. So I acknowledge all the work that all of you do in in different projects. And I also wanted to to present the example because I think change, [01:08:30] um, in terms of change happening. It's a generational thing, too. I think a lot of younger people are, you know, start to develop a new take on, you know, ideas and and and and to reconceptualizing their, um, values around spirituality and and things like that and one example I can think of is, um with the Samoa National Youth Council in Samoa, which is a village based youth organisation. Um, last year you would have known that Samoa hosted the Commonwealth Youth [01:09:00] Games. But not a lot of people knew that before that before the Games, over three days, Samoa hosted the Commonwealth Youth Pacific Region meeting. And so that was when all the youth ministers from across the Pacific met in Samoa. Um, alongside other youth leaders within the region, um, China from Fiji. Anyone? Yeah, um and so there was a meeting of, of of, um, youth leaders from around the Pacific. And one of the issues that that came up during that [01:09:30] particular forum was this discussion about gender identities and sexual diversities and and things like that. And so, um, it was a contentious issue. And at our September, um, forum for the sale National Youth Council, we kind of discussed it as a group because we wanted to ensure that we had consensus going into the meeting and there was definitely a divide because the group's quite diverse, and, um, you have a lot of younger, younger people and then you have a lot of people who are slightly older. You know, in the Pacific, when you're not married, you're still part of the, [01:10:00] um And so they had very specific ideas about, you know, um, sexuality and identity, whereas the younger people like and I heard the point about people, um, someone mentioning that, you know, church attendance was going low. I think people are starting to reevaluate, um and we, um, and rethink how they exercise their spirituality and how they how they treat other people. And so, with the younger people that were at that particular forum, um, when we put the issue across to them, you know, sort of within the framework of of [01:10:30] of human rights or another particular discourse and other kind of, you know, cuts across all those other issues. A lot of people start, you know, thinking, OK, this, you know, start changing their mindset. And so even though they probably go back home and then go straight back to church and be told the other way, I think the fact that they that they're thinking that and that they're having these conversations in these spaces and then taking it back to where they're from. I think it's really, really important. So thank you and keep up the very word, Thank you. I think another important thing to note [01:11:00] is, sometimes we often confuse a church acceptance with participation of, for example, transgender women in church choir. A lot of people can say that Oh, because there's a lot of participation of transgender women in the choir. They are more acceptable. But I seriously think that the real conversation is not taking place. They're not having the conversation about LGBT rights. And a lot of us in the Pacific continue to think that there is real conversation within the church and accept us when it is not. And I think it's important that we pick out and make sure that, you know [01:11:30] there's a difference between you know them, agreeing to the, you know, the rights of LG and then participation. There's a huge confusion in the Pacific in terms of what level is the tolerance level. At what level do they we engage? It's tricky, but we know it's not, [01:12:00] and, uh, you know the work in terms of the the the work around, you know, and that is around homophobia. It's around. That is the work. And, um, and it's It's never been an easy task. But actually we need to be. And not just in our homeland. We need to be doing it here with our communities as well. And I think that the way you know what? What? You've already spoken about [01:12:30] how we lobby, Um, and it is. It is the churches, you know. It's not just the government, it is. It is going to be the churches because that's where the that's where the power in terms of the decision making around what in terms of how where people's mindsets are, um and how how will we get into those churches? And, um and it's an everyday thing. How do we do that within our own families? And it is the ministers, you know, And it's amazing the conversations [01:13:00] we can be having with the ministers and actually how they do, um, sit and listen. And actually, you know, if you have a good relationship with your minister, Actually, the conversation is pretty easy and straightforward. And how do we continue to do have those, um, and in it, probably the young people. What you said about the young people asking questions, and we should really encourage that because it's important that we do ask the right questions because [01:13:30] invariably, you know, we're told to shut up and not to to to voice our opinions. But, uh, you asked, how can we continue it? I think we to create awareness and especially in the church arena, we need to ask questions. What is your issue on this? What is your views on that? And I think we are outspoken. I know it cost you a slap or two, but you at least you you you You said your piece, what's been interesting is actually after the, um yeah, the [01:14:00] Presbyterian Church here. The It was the P IC churches that pushed, um, for, um for, um, LGBT Q I not to hold positions within the church. Now, that was really interesting, because what we had was, uh, general Assembly at first saying, actually, they would support, you know, they would, um, support um, the, um uh, having G BT Q. I actually sit within the church, but it was the P IC [01:14:30] churches and that and that is a concern because it was and and they had the power to be able to change that. Um, and that's where the push came from. And so it does say to me that there's something that just haven't changed at all. And, um, where is it that we need to be putting the energy? Um, yeah, homophobia. So And you were very visible supporting the through the marriage equality stuff. What were the lessons learned from [01:15:00] there? I mean, my father, my father, is a minister, you know, and like, um and which is why I say it's really important that we actually have those conversations with ministers because they do listen. And it's about, and it's their job to actually think about how they may have those conversations with their congregations. But actually how they include that as part of the everyday, whether it's their or because the people look up to them, you know, it's like they're the gods and, um, and it hard it hasn't been easy. I mean, there's a lot of backlash. [01:15:30] I don't care, you know? And the thing is, I've used my being the the minister's daughter to actually, um, advocate and, um, continue kind of, um, challenging, and I think that's important. And it's like, you know, the other thing about it is that actually, how do we grab all the ministers kids and actually get them to start pushing, pushing the book? Because I think that's, you know, and young people, there's lots of young people that actually are right behind us. And so how do we get the momentum [01:16:00] going? I think there's a lot. I think there's a lot to be said in there. Yeah, thank you. Are there any other questions for the panel and from the Pacific? It just the one thing I think number one me to face is, um, the data I came to to question your data. And now because some of us some violence are very isolated, very huge, you know, the amount of land mass and all that. [01:16:30] And I just wanted to ask whether what? You face any challenges and difficulties in collecting and collecting the data, and I think it's very important that we have because the number one problem with us. So I'm asking whether you are lobbying for more funds or more, um, spot out there so you can actually do a proper job moving forward in collecting our data and make sure we have some baseline data in place because that's the number one problem we face in Samoa. It's just a [01:17:00] matter of no data available. So yeah, we really, um, in our fight at the ground level and that we and somebody can assist us in the future, collecting our data and make sure we have our data in store. Um, so I'm I'm also putting it to you whether you are loping or you're doing something for that same man issue. Thank you. Yes, Mr. I would like to add on to, um What Roger said, [01:17:30] Um, yeah, I feel like you said about the islands, but, um, the the geographical layout of the islands. But also I think it's there's another problem. That issue that is also in place in data collection is the participation. Like, I've mentioned that those who are well off are well qualified or be successful graduates. They do not participate in this, um, testing. I've noticed that in Vanuatu, in Fiji and Papua New Guinea, and, um, [01:18:00] they do, even if we the members or the or the the movement, we go and approach them to get our spread out The word for, um, HIV tests. They do not get involved. They either stay discreet and do not participate at all. So I think that's another way. Um, maybe if we can find ways to communicate or get them engaged in participation. Um, maybe because they're just afraid of being yeah, exposed to. And then when [01:18:30] we found out that they are the ones that we want to, we noticed that that their behaviour is always at risk. And there's another question of how do we make available make use of the existing data that's available most of the times the Pacific like for some of the work that's been done around the HIV response around key populations, transgender sex workers. So these data are still in the shelf. They're not being used by the very people that you know did the research. One very good example [01:19:00] is integrated by behavioural research that was done in Fiji still in the shelf, no follow up, no implementations. You know, I think it's also a responsibility for the LGBT movement in terms of saying that there is a huge gap but to also do sort of like a desk review or whatever. Look at existing available data that we can make use of before we sort of, like, you know, making sure that, uh, current trends are included, and current emerging issues and things like that are taken into account. Thank you. I think that probably brings [01:19:30] to a close our session today, and just to summarise Thank you very much, uh, to the presenters and also the panellist for raising some of the issues. Uh, the health issues pertinent to LGBT There were only a few that was raised, but those were probably the priority health issues that they felt needed to be raised at this forum. And we hope that the strategies or some of the way forward [01:20:00] that we have discussed in trying to ensure that, uh, we increase the access to health for our LGBTI Q in the Pacific will be improved through strengthening or strengthening or creating an enabling environment around faith around legislation which we have also spoke. Spoke about to that will contribute to, um, increasing access, uh, to health services [01:20:30] for our LGBT members. Thank you very much. We hope to see you in our next session tomorrow.

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TITLE: From Bisexual to Skoliosexual - Proud 2016
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VOICES: Bella Simpson; Melissa Gibson
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; 2010s; 5 Tips For Being An Ally (youtube); All Of Us (education resource - Australia); Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Bella Simpson; Chescaleigh (youtube); Donald Trump; Eddie Redmayne; Inside Out (Rainbow Youth resource); InsideOUT Kōaro; Leonardo da Vinci; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Melissa Gibson; Robin Duff; Safe Schools Coalition Australia; Shift hui (2016); Stonewall (film, 2015); Stonewall riots (1969); The Danish Girl (film); The Holocaust; The National Curriculum; University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine; Waikato; Waikato Queer Youth; Wellington; acceptance; ace (asexual); age of consent; allies; aromantic; asexual; bisexual; cisgender; coming out; counselling; education; empowerment; endocrinologist; erasure; exclusion; facebook. com; facial hair; fluidity; gender identity; google. com; hate; heterosexual; holding hands; homosexual; human rights; identity; ignored identities; internet; intersex; labels; lesbian; marginalisation; marginalised communities; marriage equality; mental health; non-binary; pansexual; parents; passing; provocation defence; psychiatrist; public display of affection (PDA); queer; relationships; religion; resource; role model; school; school counselor; self care; self determination; sex; sex positivity; sexual identity; sexual orientation; skoliosexual; social media; spectrum; support; teacher; teaching; trans; transgender; tumblr. com; writing
DATE: 10 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine, Mein Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the workshop: From Bisexual to Skoliosexual.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So I'm Melissa, Um, and with this workshop, we did have some ideas of how we could like present information. But then, to be honest, I personally thought, Well, that's not the best idea for me, because I still have so much to learn. Um, this is my first pride event ever. I was thrown into it. Thanks, Bella. Um, but I think you know, it's going to be very much like a collaborative, discussion based workshop sharing personal experiences. If you feel comfortable to do so, Um, and things that, like affected [00:00:30] you and your journey, Um, to where you are now, wherever that may be, Um, and largely talking about how And I think that was, like, a consistent theme this morning as well. Um, we can make sure that the sort of more and we've been referring to them in our planning as ignored identities, um, are included far more in the community and how we can more ensure as well that we reach out to people who do identify with those different identities and how we can make sure that they get invited in, um, as opposed to just kind of going Oh, we [00:01:00] we're sitting here waiting, Um, because that's just so doesn't work. Um, and so I just really keen to hear from everyone some action points of what each of us could maybe take away personally to our friend groups and family groups. Um, but also, in terms of, like, our wider networks, um, be at work or, you know, volunteer groups and how we can make sure that we really provide that information as well for young questioning people who might be struggling, particularly because there's a lack of resource or education around those identities. Yeah, [00:01:30] all right. Do you wanna start like with a round of instructions of everyone, though, um, the first thing we'll do is we'll just sort of establish a rough sort of to establish that this is a safe space. Um, there's not too many of us, I think, just like the basics. What said in here stays in here affecting everyone else's opinions? Um, and things along those lines Does anyone else have anything pressing that they feel needs to be shared or, like, said as a no? I guess one thing would be if [00:02:00] you're aware that you're someone that likes to talk quite a lot, but just remembering that there are other people who might find it a little bit hard. Thank you. So the first thing we were gonna I thought we could do is maybe draw and do, like, the sexuality spectrum. Um, and we can sort of talk about that because I feel like what? We're learning different identities of each other, which is a great start. So we just use the whiteboard, I think. Yeah. Um, so how [00:02:30] I sort of saw it on my head, but we can discuss this more. Was that on one side? It is very. And then on the other side, it's very Oh, yeah. And then we've got, like, a And then we've got, like, a romantic download, the bottom. Um and so then it's kind of [00:03:00] like a spectrum between all of that, and there's a range of identities that will fit in different parts of this, I think. And then it's also sort of the idea that it's very fluid. So sometimes you may feel very like this side, like, right here in the centre. But then other times, you might feel very much more like down over here, you know, and so in the middle. That's I thought, as a group, we could discuss different identities. Yeah, Um, [00:03:30] I don't think this encompasses diverse genders, because how do you define a sexual person? Their Their relationship is neither hetero or homosexual, So that's the centre. So if we've got, like, from a very point of view and then right, so then this is also a point of view, but [00:04:00] like, same sex to opposite sex. Um, but then in the middle, this is where, like, pansexual would be. That would be Yeah, but those are sexual orientations, not gender. Yeah. Yeah, I think we're just talking about sex, but they definitely do all intersect. And I think that's the thing is that in itself is something that we need, [00:04:30] Like a 3D. Like a plane that sit on top of that. Yeah. Exactly. Therefore, if we need a 3D image, maybe Well, you probably do need to figure a way to work. Yeah, so yeah. And like, um, like trends and then like non binary, but like, some things were just described. Sort of like [00:05:00] a So it's you know, I know it's impossible to draw, but it's kind of like that it's a spherical thing. So my plan is is that what we have always done is like an education. Point of view is a always sort of gone home, and we've never look at everything around that. We just look in a clear line. I'm hoping that through this workshop we can come up with a clear plan and we can be to kids like Look, it's not [00:05:30] just a straight line. It's literally like I think as well. And this is where I particularly struggle with mental health and just with like my own lived experience is that if people and this is something that, like I think fits with you like buy or pan or if you identify as something which is more fluid as people will look at my relationship and go, Oh, you're in a hetero relationship, you have a boyfriend. Um, whereas realistically, on most given days, I am way more over here. It's just that [00:06:00] I actually happened to connect with another like a male. Um and I think that makes it really difficult, Um, in terms of like your personal identity and, you know, and if I refer to myself as queer or something like that. And people kind of look at me and they're like, Hm, But are you you know, and I'm like, Yes. Um, yeah, What do you think? Like, what's your experience? It's it's people are like, Yeah, but no, you're not because you're in a [00:06:30] in a relationship with a guy, so yeah, yeah, And I think that's something which we'll talk about later in the workshop as well. But like how to, like, maybe have conversations with partners and family around that, because that's something that you know. And to be honest, I'm really wanting to learn off other people as well, because I've had I've had no support network in terms of that. And so when I started dating my boyfriend, I was like, Look, we have to have a conversation. Um, because he totally knew that I am queer, But I was like, You have to not just [00:07:00] accept this, but celebrate it. Um, you know, And just how you have those different conversations as well as something we can come to. How do you find? So, were you talking about acceptance of general society in saying, Oh, if you've got a if you're in a relationship, then we define you as that. But, um, it's also quite excluding in the LGBT. Absolutely. And I mean because there'll [00:07:30] be people who go, um, and and it's a bit about, like, feeling more entitled, I think like because, um if if, If you've got a a visible gender identity or you've got a a really obvious sexual orientation that that you don't have any flexibility in that, [00:08:00] then you'll be, um you may have different struggles. I mean, yeah, and and I wonder if you've had that kind of being ostracised from the LGBTI community because of people who might say, Well, you can just hide it totally. That's really a thing, as people have, like a lot of, um, sort of this idea of passing almost, um, which [00:08:30] I think, though for me, I. I just see that as actually a, um of my identity. Um, and it's something that for a long time, and I'm gonna be real brief because I don't want to be the only person talking. Um, but like for a long time, I really struggled with as well because I dated a girl in high school, and then when I left high school. I had, like, three boyfriends in a row. And so we're on the street. Oh, it was just a face. Oh, look, she was just, like, gay for a year. Um, you know, and so I actually posted, like, a profile picture was like, actually, [00:09:00] no, I'm bisexual. And these are, like, a bunch of, like, the myths, which I really wanted to spell. Um, but it is definitely that you did. Thank you. I was really nervous. I actually turned my laptop off for, like, half an hour afterwards. And I was like, I'm just gonna let that sit there. Um, yeah. Um, but no. Totally. And I think though it is something that I'm still trying to learn about because I think it's so, like, on one hand, you can't just say to someone. Oh, you're not queer anymore [00:09:30] because you're in that relationship. But at the same time, you know, I do actually accept that, like, you know, I can walk down the street holding my partner's hand. Um, I wasn't didn't used to, you know, but I can now, but it's realising that as well and kind of going No, actually, I do. Really? I understand. Especially I think sometimes, like it comes out of a place of hurt for people. Um, who, like, you know, want the same thing? Um, yeah, but that's a really interesting [00:10:00] point of discussion. Do you have any ideas on that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel kind of similar to you. It does, like, I think, affect my own identity. Um, sometimes even I'm like, what? What's that phase? You know, because I was like, I've been in a relationship with him I for two years now, So I'm like, Well, I don't know. Perhaps if, um, if I felt more supported by the community, I might celebrate my own identity a little bit more totally. Yeah. Sorry. I just want [00:10:30] to come back to the next thing I was gonna say. Um, well, then what if you looked at it so that then we took these two away and we put them in a separate line and we put male and female or, like, sis non stuff? I don't think Ace and a romantic are opposite. True. What's the definition of a romantic? [00:11:00] There's no romantic connection with people that are just sexually attractive to people, so I don't know. I sort of saw them as opposites because one was like romance. One was sexual, but I wasn't too sure that was an assumption, which I probably shouldn't have done. But we have a discussion about that. Um, yeah, I was gonna ask the same question. [00:11:30] Let's just ask and and also, can one of you please explain what is What does ace mean? So a is a Yeah, we did explain it just before you arrive. Good question. Yeah, we all have that question as well. Some of them Do you want to come sit here like while we're doing this? Because you can if you want. You don't have to, but so the opposite of asexuals sexual and [00:12:00] then you'd have another one for a romantic and romantic. So because would that be like too many things? Yeah, like asexuals and then sexual and then a romantic and romantic. I think I've always thought of sexuality. The sphere is even better, but I've always drawn a big circle and everyone's a dot somewhere in that circle, and everybody is probably a little bit different to everybody else. That's what we trying to do. And so it doesn't sort of matter necessarily if you get it perfect, which paradigms? [00:12:30] But everyone is, you know, as long as they're they're perhaps they're all labelled there somewhere, like a star diagram. We need one of those holograms moves around with. Yeah, that's it. Does anyone else see us like while we were talking about it before? Like, it's sort of in our minds? Has anyone experienced being in a relationship that maybe doesn't make visible [00:13:00] like the entirety of your identity and therefore, like, have dealt with assumptions or stereotypes and things? I think from an A an asexuals perspective. People don't really appreciate the importance of the close friendships that you make. And they think, you know, if you have a platonic friendship with somebody of a different gender that they'll think, Oh, you know, why aren't you? Why are you having sex? [00:13:30] And particularly, I suppose, um, it's also difficult that there are really a very few in the wider body, very few as six people. So the chance of two of them meeting each other and understanding each other is is low, whereas, um, a sexual person may meet a sexual person and not understand them and want to have [00:14:00] a sexual relationship with them and feel really hurt. I think that it's really interesting because I'm a part of a couple of different, like as Facebook groups and internationally there's only 7000 people in one of them, and that's like the biggest set of both. And that's an international Facebook group type. And that's like the first thing when you type into Facebook that will come up, which I think is really interesting. But I'm like, pretty sure that there is far [00:14:30] more people. Yeah, one of my plans this year and I think Alex is gonna work with me a little bit on it and through inside out, Um, I want to set up So it was probably a Facebook group and then move into, like meetings monthly. But I can ignore sexual identities and non sexual identities, um, like group, because I'm sure that there are multiple identities out there, but we just like there's no visibility for it. So I think that that's like the biggest issue is that there just isn't the visibility, [00:15:00] and that's something that we've been talking about in terms of like one of the sort of discussion questions that we had was, like, What sort of resources have been available? Like to you like, through your sort of? I call it a journey, but that implies it has destination. It doesn't necessarily have to have a destination. You can just be moving along. Um, yes, you know, But just in terms of, like, what information was available or like, have you seen available to people Because, like, to [00:15:30] be honest bisexuality, I'm gonna like class it in, like the fairly mainstream group, you know, in terms of, like, ignored identities, because it is still, you know, something that's widely talked about. But my school counsellor was like, Oh, does that mean you have a boyfriend and a girlfriend at the same time? And I was like, you, I'm not the person I need to be talking to right now. Um, but just in terms of, like, does anyone have, like, really positive experiences of education available, Or maybe not or just, you know, thinking about that as well? Because I think in terms of, [00:16:00] you know, um, being a and stuff, maybe it's just that a lot of people go, I'm feeling like this, But maybe there's just something wrong with me. Or maybe like, Is this even like a thing or what's just wrong with me? You know that that information that I found, we know certain things that, um, people do totally erase the the asexuals identity and just say, Oh, just because you can't get an opposite sex partner or any [00:16:30] partner that they're just like Oh, it's just because you're a loser. You know, it's it's It's a human nature to want to have sex. That's what the argument is, and so it's just completely erased. It's really hurtful as well. How did you go about finding that information then? If you want that, probably just Google it and it comes out just looking. [00:17:00] I don't know it. It's not like I didn't know what to Google. That's what I'm saying, though it was like, you know, I probably found it through an article about something completely different. No, because I think that's so often The problem as well, particularly with the ignored identities, is you know, if it's not actually talked about, or like if the idea isn't presented to you, kind of like that Facebook group that I said before, you know, someone might just be going. Oh, like, this is just a thing about me and because it's they really [00:17:30] do think it's just a thing about them. They're not going to sort of go ahead and look for that information. Yeah, Yeah. It's like for me with, like, kind of figuring out my non binary trans identity. Like, I pretty much just assumed that when I didn't feel that I was a woman, that I must be a dude until I met other non-binary people. So and because there was no, there's no language for it in wider society generally. So it was just that thing of and yeah, [00:18:00] I don't know how you changed that. Anyone else. Jason, what kind of like, you know, you being in a political party and things like, Do you have many educational resources? And if you do, so, um, 2. 5 years ago, we spent when we formed first of all four months trying to, um, even put some definitions together. So 2. 5 years ago, we [00:18:30] we in Australia, GL BT. I was being used. We, um after three or four months of of research landed with the LGBTI Q and we thought the Q, um, covers the A pluses. Um, some people think it does. Some people think it doesn't it just I mean, it's fine. The whole letter thing is, and people didn't really understand even 2. 5 years ago in the the broader community what all the letters meant and we've [00:19:00] actually had a. Now everyone uses the LGBTI Q in Australia. And now there's the the the eight pluses being added in there in some places as well. And I think that's been really good. So but that, um And then we spent 18 months researching what needed to happen for full inclusion and celebration of LGBTI Q people in Australia. And there were 30 pages and marriage is one paragraph. We don't have marriage equality. Um, we don't even have adoption equality in most states, and most they just passed it in. [00:19:30] Um, we still had. We only just recently had the decriminalisation of people had sex offences for engaging in same same sex recently as well. In the last 12 months, Um, in some states in Australia, it was only a few years ago that you could, um um, have the defence over. Someone came on to me and they were saying you killed them. Yeah, that got away with it. Not for a long ago. So So this, um [00:20:00] uh, and I ask the question, Answer. I answer it properly. That I'm sorry, I don't wanna just in terms of educational resources. And then you also get them out to people who maybe aren't out yet either. Or don't. Even so, our our audience is 40% heterosexual, Um, and we believe our whole process has been in education. So whether you go through our policy strategy, which is on our website, there's, you know, 30 pages of of of information. It's about it's positively written, too. So [00:20:30] it's almost like you implement all these things. Um, and Australia is a fully inclusive, beautiful society. I understand that legislative change is not the same as social change, but they they they're connected. Um, so it's all the way through. It's been an education process. There are, you know, and and the in particular Trans, um, issues have had a lot of focus in recent last year or so, which is a good thing Uh, and the fact [00:21:00] that people are, you know, not easily defined. And it's OK, and there's nothing wrong with being, um, everything it is about education, everything. And I just tried to learn, and we we actually went and just, you know, listened. And the and the team is not just the gay people, they're They have a broad spectrum of people, you know. So it's, um, and some straight people. Did I answer your question? Yeah, I'm just trying to think, like, in terms of inside out as well. It was really good. Yeah, I'm [00:21:30] just sort of and like, Totally. And I think this is stuff that we can work on as a group is how do we get, like, resources on, like, you know, the sort of ignored identities Or maybe like, not so mainstream identities out to people, you know, to help them figure it out. You sort of get what I'm saying. Yeah. I think things that are outside the norm tumble is quite popular. If you ever heard I was waiting for someone to bring it up because you don't have to know like exact keywords you want because [00:22:00] of your like sex sexuality or non conforming gender, and then because it tags things to, um, it will it will categorise it and OK, Oh, this is what you might be looking for. It just takes you on a journey of like, Oh, I wasn't looking for that. But OK, you have to do a giant list and links to articles on to office. It's pretty cool. Um, and the other issue, though, is that there aren't actually a lot of resources, right? Like that's the biggest problem, and it turn [00:22:30] out is the goal to do those things in the future. But at the moment, it's like prioritising what's urgent and what we've actually got like statistics on to get the funding for. That makes sense because at the moment we've done like the, um, how to support gender diverse young people in schools. That's because we've actually got statistics to back up a lot of the work, so it's easier to try and get funding even though we were turned down for funding. But you know, so I think that that's like the next plan [00:23:00] programme in Australia and all of us, but it's been canned as of this minute. It No, it hasn't been. It won't be canned. Um, but the federal government is investigating it now, and they may withdraw its funding for it in my state. Um, the state government has a goal of having it implemented in every school by 2018. So it's different everywhere. But there's the religious right, are [00:23:30] very much, um, hung in. Um, they've sexualized it completely and made it, uh, in in parliament. They've come out and said things that are grooms, paedophiles and and they use the phrase Penis tucking and and breast binding like there's some evil concoction that we're encouraging the other 90% to do. We have had this programme and it's made a massive difference in public and [00:24:00] private schools in the last 2. 5 years, and hopefully it won't be, but the federal government may actually can funding for it. We spend $1. 2 billion every four years on chaplains, government chaplains, and we spent $8 million over the same period of time on the same schools programme. 1. 2 billion, 8 million. It's like it's like a 1. 1 million difference. I think Just go to [00:24:30] the schools, public schools, public schools. But how is is the country defining itself as a state? It's ridiculous. We have a right wing government, has too many of them, and they have too much folk. It's disgusting. What they say is disgusting. And I was on a in the audience of a TV show the other day and Trans, [00:25:00] it just kind of been relation because it's really the The stuff that's more salacious to the straight person is the trans stuff in the school in schools. Um, but there was no trans voice in the audience, and it's wrong. I think the point is that these are these are choices I I In my opinion, religion is right there with gender identity and sexual orientation. In terms of you have [00:25:30] a choice to identify. It's a lifestyle to be religious. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And therefore you could. 11 side of the argument could be to say, OK, if we're considering ourselves to be a secular state, then we won't teach religious. We won't have religious teachings in public schools. On the flip side, that that gives the same reasoning to teaching [00:26:00] gender diversity in schools, and they'll say OK? Uh, yeah, but so So either you could say OK, well, we should We should teach religious. We should have religious teachings in school of all religions so that people can inform themselves and choose what they associate with the same. The same. The same funding on teaching. No, that's real good, I think. Somewhat [00:26:30] like shifting it back. No, no, it's all right. Um, I forgot. I was gonna say, um, no, I think it's interesting because I've always just kind of gone like, Oh, there's heaps of resources. We just need to get them out there. Like I've just always assumed that resource is one that if you haven't seen it, you should contact safe schools and get it, because it Very good. Yeah. I think you said Nathan about Tumbler is really interesting because I think, Yeah, a lot of people sort of have this idea of tumbler, [00:27:00] but I actually think it is really, really good in terms of people exploring who they are and figuring those things out. Um, do you get much bigotry on there? I think that it's too, um, left side for that. Majority of people are, um yeah, it's very much, almost like a community of people who and then even people on there who identify as gender and straight like there's just so [00:27:30] much on there that I think if they really were to, like, try and even be mean, they actually would just get completely shut down. And so it is done by voting, right? You thumbs up or thumbs down it? No. So you can just do the, like, read blog posts or you like them. Um, And so yeah. And so, like, there's heaps of really cool blogs as well. So there's, like, one on like demisexual dot tumblr dot com, Um, and lots of different things like that. But [00:28:00] because that's where we get most of our, um because I run. Sorry, Um, that's where we get most of what you in the other day. Um, yeah, because because I was looking for resources for, um people. And because a couple of you came to me like we want to know if this is us or you know what we do about it, or do we do anything or how are we meant to be feeling I was like, leave it look, um, [00:28:30] and I couldn't find anything. And there was just, like, one book, and it was a shit book I recruited paying for it. Um, and it was basically like, um, your sexuality just hasn't kicked in yet. Basically, it was what The person saying I was like, Oh, I'm not gonna give that to Yeah, but it was, like, so on. Tumbler, like I. I just in the sense you just put, um as, um And it can follow people who have real life experience. And also they found the resources [00:29:00] to work for themselves. So they kind of whittled out the crap kind of thing. So they've kind of done the hard work for you. And there's tonnes of pages just dedicated to it because again, they're probably pushing an awareness. And like, Well, I did this resource when I first got myself. Where is everyone else? So let go. It's good like that. So how do you guys think? Maybe like just everyone as a group, could we because, like, this is the thing is we're trying to look like as a community. How can we go back out to like our own networks and really promote like, awareness and education on these things in terms [00:29:30] of resources, not existing. Like, Do you think we should just write them ourselves, or do we just find, like, really good ones and kind of like information share? Or I think part of carry on. Part of it would be kind of if we find resources from overseas that they're not necessarily going to be culturally appropriate here in town. Um, so that could be an argument for making our room. I think the thing I like about self determination and like, [00:30:00] you know, you guys doing your survey with youth and stuff is, you know, maybe the community could put it out there for people to say what they think. You know, when we first came in and people were saying, What does that mean? Or what does that mean? You know, actually, people just describe themselves how they would what they see these teams, meaning and what they feel they would feel it. So you get terrible. Why that? Um, you know, New Zealand based diverse because, I mean, everyone will have different opinions, [00:30:30] but I guess trying to find some commonality within that. But you need to ask people first so that they can say this is what it means to me when I say I'm queer. Like for me, for example, most people just assume I'm lesbian or, um, you know, and that and I'm all right with that, doesn't I? Don't particularly care that much, but it's that thing of someone else who queer might be non binary or someone else might be gay or, you know, so there's already a multiple number of different [00:31:00] within that one word. But, um, and other people might have different things around bisexuality or various other. And I think that's where um, like, I'm the student counsellor here at med school, and I've had people come to me and it's that thing of I don't say hello. I'm Denise and I'm a lesbian or I'm just talking to them about their concerns. But if you know those issues come up, um, you know, that might be a time when I talk about that [00:31:30] or not, depending on, you know, because sometimes it's not appropriate. But, um, I have had someone who ace and feeling very isolated, and I was really pleased they talked to me about it, and I didn't pick up on it at all, and then they just start talking. I always ask people about their relationship history. That's just the way I go into it, because you don't want to assume or and sometimes people find it very difficult. If you come direct at them around sexuality, they can feel quiet in [00:32:00] the way. We've got a lot of international students here where it's unsafe in their home countries to be of a different sexual orientation. So that's a way that I find works for me as a councillor, and I've had a history of working in mental health and the DH BS. Prior to that, and again as the lesbian working in a child abuse mental health service, I used to get all the queer clients get put to me, and I used to get really shitty with [00:32:30] the rest of the staff, saying, You need to educate yourselves and this is what you need to do in order to not everyone's going to relate to me just because I'm queer. We're not all the same, you know, um, and you know, you guys need to find ways of, you know, because there there might be a limited resource, like people are talking about endocrinologists or whatever, or psychiatry or things like that. And not all of them are going to have that range of diversity to be the right person to see. You know, Um, so [00:33:00] I'm a great fan of trying to It comes to that kind of, I mean, my fantasy. It would be that we didn't even need to have LGBTI Q that we could just have sex, sexuality and gender diverts. And everyone was in that, you know, But that complete utopian, because everything's not equal at the moment. So we have to have this to achieve that equality. But I think that's where I'd like to see it kind of [00:33:30] somehow move that self determination and that can be around. All sorts of things raise gender, sexuality, and I I'm fortunate to be working alongside doing some research, but insects, um, in New Zealand and trying to get some change around how things are happening in that arena. And again, that's another area where people feel very, um, um, you know, when you talk about not having awareness or [00:34:00] people not responding or, um so again, it's really tricky. But I'm not an person myself. So it's that thing of, um, you know, you don't want to speak for other people, but you also want to support within that wider community to get heard. So gone off a track now. But I guess it's that thing of trying to find a way, because when I you know, I suppose coming out as a lesbian in the eighties, it was completely different. And I totally get what you know the bisexual people are saying [00:34:30] about, because it was sort of that sort. You make up your mind and they used to be lesbian clubs and they sort of have to show your ID at the store. Are you really, truly a lesbian or bisexual or all that sort of stuff? Ridiculous, you know, But it is that people do get in their little camps, and it's really hard to try and shift them. I really want to find a nice way of presenting all that diversity, because when I'm talking with doctors, they only have blinkered binary [00:35:00] on. And my what I'm wanting to hope my research is to shift them from thinking beyond, because that's the biggest barrier in my mind is the blinker binary vision, and they just can't get their heads around that other way of seeing things. And that's until we can shift that. And I think that's also true in the general population that someone was saying in the human rights, but about we need to How are we going to get everyone on side? Because [00:35:30] they're the people who kind of put up the blocks. You know, I paraphrase something you said earlier. I just want to check that it's OK how I paraphrased it. I just said when describing cells describe the labels that we are using as well, how we would use them Is that Is that OK to that? Yeah, I think, um, labels is a big like a question by that because I think to debate on because some people love them. Some people hate it, and I think that's something that, especially [00:36:00] within ignored identities, as almost as much. You know, it's like Are they empowering or are they limiting? Yeah, that's like self determination. It's kind of like not saying a label, but it's sort of yeah, I think just like another point that I picked up that was really awesome. Um, and I totally want to hear from everyone else if they, you know, if it struck anything with them. Um, but how you said that you will ask people about their relationship history and not directly like their sexuality? [00:36:30] Um, I thought that was really good. And I think sometimes, like in terms of thinking and just, like, very small networks, especially, um, you know, be it friends or people that you meet, and you kind of want to say like, Oh, so you know, like, how is your partner or things like that? You know, you want to find stuff out about them or you want to know Hey, can I talk to you about this? Um, that that particularly, was a really good way of doing it. And I'm just wondering, like, you know, does anyone else have any, like, ways that they ask people about that or even slip it in personally? [00:37:00] Because I know that sometimes if I'm talking to a young person who I think you know, might want to have a conversation about something and they go, Oh, my ex-girlfriend said something. They go. I really like that show, you know, and they'll be like, Oh, ex-girlfriend, you say, You know, And then they'll start talking to you about that. And it wasn't about that. It was about, you know, some other thing that I made up to try and talk to them about that, Um, but just yeah, just sort of thinking about that as well, in terms of it also being like a safe conversation. So, you know, do you personally have any other, like, sort of [00:37:30] ambiguous questions that you ask, Or I just kind of, you know, say, I just say about What's your support network? Have you who are your friends? And, you know, I guess it's that sort of moving from the inward out or, you know, how do you feel about yourself and just generally moving out from that? It's really hard because it depends on the person in front of you. But I guess I always try to just be myself without feeling like I have [00:38:00] to tell them everything but be myself and just create a safe environment. And, um, yeah, I don't know how he is. It's hard. There's not a particular phrase as such, but I just I think that totally. When you put the focus on yourself, it really makes the other person feel more comfortable. But there's a really fine line to treat along that hidden in professional context. As you know, [00:38:30] like, um because you can't have all your clients knowing all about you and you, you can't have your client. You can't be, uh, like you can't be squashing your client's issues with your own. It's kind of probably a better word is you got to be real rather than necessarily self disclosing about. You know, um, you know, being an older lady, I don't kind of go in there and try and get all the hip language of all the young folk that you know, [00:39:00] because I just sort of think straight away, you know? And I got a Facebook and all that sort of stuff, and they just go on now they're doing their things and they come in. I'll put that in there for you today, but, um, you know, so I don't try to be what I'm not, you know. So I think being real is really important. It's not like you see straight through a group or something, because I think that was like, [00:39:30] The main thing is just also, how do we start conversations? Um, which I think is an interesting one. But that's really good, I think, Um, like, as a takeaway. Did anyone else have anything to say in terms of that as well? What time are we meant to be? Finishing up? Cool. Alright then, um I don't know. I'm just trying to think as well in terms of, like, action points and things. So, like, what would actually go into? I don't know. What resources do you wish were available to you though, Like growing up? Because I think before we even create [00:40:00] resources, what resources do we think? Work? What? Don't do you know what I mean? Like, is a booklet really going to be the most effective thing or in terms of that just talk? Yeah. I don't know if this is the right place or time to say this, but going back to what you going to what said before about schools in Australia, maybe instantly thinking to myself. Yes. I wish we had that kind of programme in my school when [00:40:30] I was in high school kind of programme because I had the first kind of instinct, if you like. In my feeling in my mind, Yeah, I like that. They're they're cute. They're cool. Yeah, Yeah. I didn't come out till I was about 20 or three women, I think. So we think. Can you tell us what are doing in terms of, like, resources in schools [00:41:00] and like, school programmes? You help me too. Um, at the moment, the education is like basic gender identity and sexual identity. Um, and I've been quite busy at the moment, so I haven't had a chance to start pushing that, um add more to these things. But, like, I have a list of things I want to be taking forward, starting with, like the Facebook group. Then it, like, shift [00:41:30] away. I want to do a workshop similar to this, but with the young people. So then they know that their identities are valid because that's something that that guys quite often, it's quite invalidating if you don't hear about these things. So they are the things, but like, um, as an organisation, we're very like that's important. We're going to do that sort of thing, you know, and we make sure that we are including the other voices, So, yeah, in terms of the resource that already exists Do you deliver that, like, as a workshop? [00:42:00] Or are you like we can do or, you know, readily available online is not the inside out online and skills can resource that you can download. It has, um, the one. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but I think it's interesting that our next few points, but what's going to get kids to access that? Because that [00:42:30] really wordy document that's online somewhere. How is that actually going to need some of the things like the train resource? They're not for students. They're for teachers to be better educated. Because if the teachers don't know what they're teaching, then the kids are going to learn sort of thing. So, um, and it's also about thinking that, like, we educate like a year 13 class this year on issues, But then there'll be another class next year, so you've got to get it from a higher up level. [00:43:00] So then you have to keep doing it like, you know. Yeah, because I think like, uh, action point that, like I personally like, would work towards the like with my political party personally like we want is to have it, like within the actual sex education curriculum and making sure that, like, you know, I think it was like NC a was redone. Um, in 2010, um, to make sure that we included, um, the Treaty of Waitangi and like Maori, [00:43:30] um, issues like right throughout the curriculum, whether it was like, literally every subject, it was integrated into the curriculum. Um and so I think that would be like a big vision like action point that I think would be cool, like, I don't know if other people agree with it would be cool. It's not as like a community to push, but then that's also such a huge thing and not necessarily always effective either. Don't even know just sexy. Because I found out today that Leonardo da Vinci was gay and I was like, I didn't know that That's quite cool. Yeah, [00:44:00] And so it's like simple things like that. That's actually something quite key and quite important that should be discussed or even just mentioned when you're learning about these things. So that's maybe like, and like you said something in your presentation, you said English like you don't talk about queer writers, that there was a conference I went to years ago when I was a lot younger. And there's massive discussion about the fact that there's so many people, Um, and like, so many things that are talked about, but you never, [00:44:30] ever hear the queer side of things, you know? And so, like, you talk about the French Revolution, But you won't talk about how it affected, like the community back then or whether there was a community then, you know, And so, like, one of the presenters here Yeah, this this evening or tomorrow night is a lecture about Robin That was such like a side point in history. I remember learning about it and just like in one lesson, they were like, Oh, yeah, And they didn't like gay people or disable [00:45:00] people very much either. And I was like, really? Like that was like, that was it was like, Oh, yeah, they just didn't really like that much either. And I was like, Oh, OK, that was all, like the extent of how much it was discussed. Yeah, so because when you're teaching about those things and then It's just like validating your identity more right and it's just making you feel like, Well, if these people were hundreds of years ago, then that means that it's totally fine for me to feel that way. So, yeah, I mean, [00:45:30] I think the cool thing that I've seen about the inside out resource, um, is that they are trying to get it into all schools. It's a start. It's not be all and end all but it's a start and it's a video and it's fairly short and sweet. And it's a discussion starter for classes. And I think, uh, you know, So the students in the class can talk about stuff, and I think that's really good and the same with, you know, the ministry. It's not necessarily a a queer thing per se, but there's the issue of consent [00:46:00] that being a part of sex education, you know, to actually include that sex positivity and that that's not actually mandatory within our and I know that they're trying to push that, and that's for all consent that absolutely has to be in there. And I think I was talking to someone the other day and he said wouldn't it be good if they spent even just 10% of all classes on learning how [00:46:30] to be kind and respectful to each other? You know, having sort of I don't know how you call it, but, you know, just just as much as we let's go and do our sport or let's go, you know, So and I think that's sort of another again, it's moving it to that wider element. But that's really gonna include all those sort of about appreciating difference and diversity. That's what really interests me, because I don't know. I'm just a bit sceptical, I guess, about [00:47:00] human nature, especially people growing up who internalise so much hatred that that teaching them about stuff isn't going to change their thinking. It might be helpful for the people who relate to what they're learning. I think that's what education can help. I think it can help more people feel accepted if they are a minority, but I don't [00:47:30] think it's able to solve the discrimination, but it can create a safe space. So what the all of us does is it creates a safe space for people with diverse sexuality and gender because it makes them visible. What's invisible and example is I went to they stand up. I went to one last year, Um, lunchtime at a school where I taught and two years before they didn't have this programme. There were 12 or 13 students in that group, [00:48:00] including one boy who's now transitioned to a girl who made that public comment in that lunch time statement. And so it was just It's just giving them permission to exist. You, Actually, that's what it does. And then that then brings change because you suddenly have straight students or non Um, LGBT Q students Who, um, then now stand up for the queer person [00:48:30] and don't allow that that language to exist. It really I think that's what we saw with the marriage debate. Is it actually like, Personally, I think it wasn't so much. I mean, don't get me wrong. It's great, Great. We can get married. Um, but at the same time, it wasn't so much about that. It was about that discussion to the country, you know, like it became like we worked on it for a term in social studies. Um, yeah, and and it's having that conversation and then all of a sudden, [00:49:00] so many high school students were like, Hang on. My parents don't support this, um, where previously they might not have actually even realise that. Yeah, and and having those conversations, Um, And like, I know so many people through that year myself included. That came out because all of a sudden there was this rallying cry, and you could see exactly who it was that was going to be there to support you or perhaps not support you. Um, but you went Oh, there actually are people that if [00:49:30] I wanted to talk about this or even suggest that I might be feeling this way. Actually, they are really supportive. And that's what the education does. Is it actually sign posts the safe places? Because my primary school there was no visibility, there was no discussion. In fact, all you've heard was there were no role models, so gas is bad, but it was never talked about, because that's what I think. Yeah, Yeah. Role [00:50:00] models, I think, are quite important as well. Like when I was at school, there were no gay teachers, and like of course they were. But they obviously didn't feel comfortable being out themselves. Yeah. And you heard about everyone, Like the people who were around like, um, opposite sex relationships. You know, they talk about all the time. Like, Oh, I went for dinner with my wife. Oh, I did that. So if I had a teacher, that perhaps that that could have been a role model for me, especially if they were a teacher that you like. Yeah, [00:50:30] it was possibly made it worse out of my school because there was this teacher who everybody thought was gay and he was an awful teacher. So people associated that with my English teacher lesbian. I know now because I've seen her in recent years. But they gave she couldn't I remember Gay thing came once someone said something like or whatever, and she corrected them. And I remember That's it. That was the only time I all of high school. [00:51:00] But I remember I got I got awards and I got given the Oscar Wilde compilation. So obviously they were trying to say, Jason, it's OK that you are who you are. Even though I wasn't out and obviously I had written all over my forehead or something But it was just. But in hindsight, it was funny. They gave me that that collection of writings, but that's all they could do. There was no there was no, I think it is that multilayered education. It's role models. It's older folk like myself. I've got an 11 year old son. So I [00:51:30] started meeting, went to school camp down. All the teachers were saying, You know, they say they all ask what you're doing and then I'll start doing some research around and see Oh, you know. So some of they start asking about that, and then they feel this is what my experience is. I usually feel they have to then say to you that I'm a good person. I talk about this to the students and, um so you know, and it's saying to them because, um, in a primary school there were There was probably, um, nearly a dozen [00:52:00] other, you know, same sex families with Children at the school and that, but they always talk about Mom and Dad, so we we would have to go and have a chat to the school when we you know, saying what? What are you doing to make things a little bit more inclusive. And we talk about parents and, you know, just just a little, you know, just so I think it's that thing of doing it wherever you can in your own kind of personal life. Of course it's. You got to feel safe to do that as well. And you don't want any kind of bad reflection to [00:52:30] come back and you come to get and you know about it or anything. But I know that there was, um, a child at camp who was talking about his two mums and the kids, and his cabin was saying, You don't have two moms. What are you all about? That's Ridic They had no concept that there was anything other than having a male or a mum and a dad and and And that that little kid, you know, he's only 11 having [00:53:00] to say. And then one of his that another friend of mine, uh, son, and fortunately one of his friends who was in the room who has got straight parents but said, No, I've met them. And yes, he does have two moms, and I know other people here that have got two moms and they're all like, 00, OK, then And then they just moved on as they do, you know? But it was that thing of it. Still, like, this is a new, you know, only 11. He's trying to work [00:53:30] out. Um, you know, I, I There's, uh, other people who have got, you know, trans Children who you know, still very young, you know, eight or nine, trying to navigate all that in the school situation. And it's it's really, really We all know it's really difficult, but I think it's that thing of constantly just challenging. We had a parent teacher meeting yesterday, and so we just talk to, you know, Billy Woods goes, Oh, cool, you know, because we we just we both rock up, and not that he's embarrassed by us, but he [00:54:00] knows we're going to just expect the teacher to be totally fine with that and to be, uh, you know, accepting and also going to be using language that's inclusive. So that's all we try to request all the time. So I think the longer you're sort of, I don't know, like, the more you consistently push things as well. The more people begin to expect it of you as well. And so I remember when I travelled back to Auckland [00:54:30] for my younger sister birthday, my 13 year old sister was talking to me, telling me about something that her friend said, and she said, Oh, when I told Mum what she had said, Mum said straight away, Oh, Missy is gonna hit that girl you know, because they were talking about like her friend was going. I'm sure that teachers gay he talks so gay, you know, he's just and my sister was like, You're not allowed to say that, you know, that's what I mean by it. It allows those conversations exactly, you know. But like a few years ago, when I came out given she [00:55:00] was like, 10 at the time. Do you know what I mean? But like she was had completely no idea she went. Does that mean I'm gay too? You know, like, Oh, what is what even is this like? Are you always going to be gay? Are you just like you know? And she just had zero idea. Whereas now it's such a normal part of her zone that not only is she like? Oh, I get it. But she's like, you know, just standing up for other people as well. Um, so I think like a takeaway for everyone is sort of like, I don't know, we're safe, like, [00:55:30] have those kinds of conversations or, you know, like extend it to your friends and family. And then that's also like a ripple effect. Yeah, we'll bring it normalises it, too. So if there's more exposure to it, the weird label it's just someone's life part of their life. Um, I don't want to sound presumptuous, but I think that we've seen the generation filtering [00:56:00] to to to the younger generation being far more understanding of of gay and lesbian, because that's what was happening in in the seventies and eighties, was empowering this movement so that it benefits the following generations. And I think now we're at the stage where we've got these other er raised identities, and that's what we need to push. And I think that's something that [00:56:30] I don't know. It's one of those things where I'm not too sure how to fix it, but, like, fix it Sounds like really like that sounds really idealistic, doesn't it? we're just going to fix the world, but no, but it's, um Yeah, I don't know, like I've had conversations with my younger sister and she she must have been 3. 5 4 when I had this conversation with her. And frankly, my mom doesn't know that I had this conversation with her because I was like, I don't know if she would let me have that conversation with her. Um, but she was saying something to me [00:57:00] about, like, facial hair or something, and I don't know, she was talking to me basically about gender and stuff, and I said to her, Oh, a actually, you know, a woman can have a bed or not Everyone is a man or a woman, you know, And so she's just always had that in her head. And I showed her the video of I can't remember her name. But the singer from, you know Yeah, you know, and I showed my sister she was like, Oh, OK, you know, cool. She looks like the chick from Aladdin. And I was like, Ok, I don't know where that came from. Um [00:57:30] but it's Yeah. I don't know like how we have those conversations and make you safe. I don't know how it's a safe thing to do. I'm trying to think up of an analogy because it's a safe kind of that's not sexuality related but could be applied to that so I can help doctors think about things that without feeling threatened. Um, and it's really hard, so scared to talk about sex. [00:58:00] But are we talking about sex or gender as well? Because I think I really like Salient Point, and, um, I'm terrible. His name the guy who spoke yesterday. The Italian. Yeah, he had a really good point in his speech that often as well. It's not actually so much about us and our identities that people have a problem with. It's what it says about them and the challenges to them. Um, and I think that's part of what makes people uncomfortable. Having those conversations as well is because I think people [00:58:30] are sort of like, Oh, well, I don't know anything and I don't know how to have that conversation, and I don't know how to not be offensive. Um, I've got my world settled down, you know, I don't want it to be and that sort of I remember in year 13, when I did come out, people asked some really ignorant offensive questions. Um, but to be honest, like, I would spend, like, five minutes giving them, like an answer, which they totally like. I was like, Oh, you're gonna want to sit down and they're like, Oh, I just was asking a quick question, you know? But by the time I [00:59:00] Yeah, exactly tough luck. You've asked me now, um, but by the time I actually finished answering them, they actually said to me, Oh, shit, Sorry. That was a bloody rude question, wasn't it? And I was like, Well, yeah, um, you know, and they were like, Oh, no, I'm so sorry. And I was like, but like, yes, it was really hurtful. But at the same time, like that person is now going away. But I also know that, like, I'm definitely not in a situation to do that all of the time, you know? And a lot of the time I don't want to entertain like those questions because I'm like, [00:59:30] Well, you should know this. And I think that's also what's really hard is it was mentioned earlier that, like, we have to educate people. Like I had to say to my school counsellor, who was the person that I was going to for help, Like I had to educate him, you know? And I don't know. I think that's a challenge in himself. Yeah, that was a sort of strange change, and I don't know what my point was, but yeah, thank you. Does anyone else have, like, general reflections of thoughts and feelings? Opinions, philosophies, ideas? [01:00:00] I think we just got to come out at all angles and, you know, sometimes we'll get it right, and sometimes we may not get it, so right. But it's good that people give feedback. I mean, one of the reasons I came today I was gonna go to I mean, I already, um, linked in with them. But I you know, I was really resonated with me when they were saying to you about You can only have five minutes and that thing of always dropping to the end when it's you for working in mental health, [01:00:30] child and adolescent was always the little voice. So compared to mental health. And you, you just you just got dropped in the last 10 minutes. So I totally felt I need to go along and support you in your workshop and also just hear about these different things. So I don't feel like I know it all either. And I'm working with. I see quite a lot of young people here, and I want to be more enlightened about all the different things that are going [01:01:00] on in the community. So I just want to say thanks for I widen my knowledge already just from being here today. But I think it's really good that you stick up for yourselves, but it's a pain. You have to do that. I guess. I think also like that's just a really good point that maybe in terms of resources as well, like we don't always need resources for other people, but maybe making resources for each other in terms of like, Hey, like, this is how you self-care and this is how like you look after yourself when you're tired [01:01:30] and maybe that's something that also, as a community we need to look at, is looking after each other because a few people mentioned that this morning like being really exhausted and like, you know, we don't get paid more. I say wait. To be honest, I'm talking about people like that as well. Who is like, It's the second job. Like you do so much. It's incredible. Like I was just gonna say sorry, I haven't been really engaging. I'm a little bit tired, but I'm really glad that this is just sort of turned into a massive discussion. That was [01:02:00] kind of the plan. It was like we sort of the backup plan was that in case the room is full of, like, old sis white gay men, um, we can educate them. But then if the room wasn't filled with old sis white gay men, we would have an opportunity to I understand. But I think it's also good, though, [01:02:30] like, I think I really appreciate and respect that, like you're just learning. You know, I like writing something down like, what is that? What is this like? And that's so important. That's one of the most. Like I watched this really, really good YouTube video, which I was going to try and share today, actually, but I was like, I don't know if we're going to have resources and stuff like that. Um, I can't remember who does it. I think it's Jessa Lee or something. Um, but it's a video on how to be an ally. Um, and it's just there is that sounds like a lot of work. Um, [01:03:00] they might just post it on the Facebook page or something. If there's a Facebook page or I'll tweet it with the hashtag. Um, but it's really good, because I think sometimes as well we get so caught up and like, Oh, I'm a part of the community. Like of course, I'm a great advocate for, like everyone else, um, that actually, like, we almost forget that we still need to learn how to be an ally to other people in our community. Um, and one of the big things that she talks about in the video is being able to listen, um, not like speaking [01:03:30] over people, but actually just elevating other people's voice. You know, I think she said something like she had a gift of male Moore in that part of the video. Um, you know, but actually letting like if you, you know, like, are really passionate about trans issues and stuff, actually like as a bisexual woman. I can't go out and be like, Oh, transitions, transitions that I can be like Listen to this Trans person talking about their issues and, like, let me, you know, elevate this person and talk about their own issues. And so I think it's really awesome that you [01:04:00] have come along and just, like, really listened and, like, contributed and taken it all on. I'm more. I wasn't saying I had to take the 45 to 54 age bracket when I arrived to New Zealand to do that. And I didn't like that 45. So I was like, Oh God, he goes, These labels come up. But the interesting thing that is is that youth is categorised [01:04:30] as 25 and under. So then, if you're over 25 and you're under 45 then how, like, what are you? You're like a middle youth, you know? So, I, I need to say I am senior youth. No, no, you could say you senior youth, just keep it you the whole way through and we probably would be in this room without white gay man, because [01:05:00] a lot of trans women fought at Stonewall and stuff. So if you saw the movie, I have not seen the movie and I don't plan to which movie and they made a movie about Stonewall, and it's very, um, instead of casting a woman like a Trans woman of colour as the main person who started [01:05:30] Star Wars, they cast us this white gay men, and it was like, No stop. If I see what's his name, play one more like No, no, no minority character. What's the guy who was like in the Danish girl? And then he was also like Stephen Hawking. I'm like, What is your What is your deal with? Like taking on these roles? Mm. And I'm gonna have to see him because he's in fantastic beats and we need to find them. I go. I know. I was so looking [01:06:00] forward to it. Um, shall we do a closing around? We got seven minutes. So I think it is important to know that we're all of this together and no one is should be demeaned. And no one is less valuable irrespective of their sexuality. So there's no I'm not threatened by, um a person who is different to me and and likewise, people shouldn't be [01:06:30] feel that way about myself. But the other thing. But it's, you know, and you know whether whether trans people have done great work. Gay men have done great work. Women, um, intersex persons who are fighting for their right now it doesn't. We're all in this together and nobody is superior or less valuable than the other person. And that's really important to be marginalising. But the people who have gone before us, whatever they however they define themselves [01:07:00] have made it better for us now. And we often forget that. And it's And when they went to jail for the same reason I was, I'm more likely to go to jail. You get a police officer face. I'm not sure if you were there on Saturday night. So on Saturday night, there was the 30th anniversary of the message. You want to read out your speech? No. [01:07:30] And but one of the comments that was very interesting because a lot of the things that we take for granted, like they are just like some not everything is by law. So a lot of the things that we take for granted could be taken away from us very, very easily. So they we say that we're not going to go to prison. But who knows? Like in the next 10 years, Donald Trump is like already trying to become president of America so things could start going down. Donald Trump is not going to be as bad as if Cruz got there. They have an anti [01:08:00] LGBT task force in in his team. Um, the values LGBT in the US. Um, and Trump doesn't I don't want Trump to win. He has said that he wants to repeal, of course, but he he's sort of all over the place. But the other two nominees are actually worse when it comes to I think we should have a final thought. This was really great. And I appreciate [01:08:30] everyone being here. It was kind of worried you wouldn't have a big turnout, mainly because there's another bisection thing on at the moment. So it's really glad that you're here. Thank you for coming. Yeah, really good to meet him around. And I feel like I've got a lot to play. So thank him because chat. Yeah, you're all beautiful people. Nice to sit in the room with you? [01:09:00] Yeah, and thank you for facilitating. Yeah, I think it's been good. I think, like I have some points to go away with as well. Um, and I hope that it's a conversation that carries on and like that. We continue to think about some of the things that we talked about today because I think we brought up a lot of it's like issues and a lot of things that we're not too sure on how to do. And so it'd be great for, like, people to sort of sit on those and have a think [01:09:30] about How can we sort of, like develop those ideas more? I love that last statement that all the issues are as important as each other they become, and is that important? It really is. And I worry that sometimes we fight amongst ourselves too much or we snipe at each other. I think that's coming from a place. Of course it is like.

IRN: 1030
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/lgbti_health_plenary_proud_2016.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004417
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089711
TITLE: LGBTI* health plenary - Proud 2016
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VOICES: Elizabeth Kerekere; Jack Trolove; Mani Bruce Mitchell
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Ara Taiohi; Auckland; Black Women's movement; Elizabeth Kerekere; Human Rights Act (1993); International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association (ILGA); Intersex roundtable; Jack Byrne; Jack Trolove; Jan Logie; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Mental Health Foundation; Māori; Mātauranga Māori; Pasifika; Proud 2016 (Wellington); Sandra Dickson; Takatāpui: part of the whanau (booklet); Tīwhanawhana; University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine; Waka Hourua; Wellington; activism; ahi kaa; ancestors; arts; burnout; butch; community; culture; discrimination; education; exclusion; exhibition; femme; health; hinengaro; housing; human rights; language; mana; mana wahine; mental health; performance; relationships; research; resource; shoes; social services; suicide; suicide prevention; takatāpui; te whare tapa wha; tikanga; tinana; trans; transexual; transgender; wairua; wellbeing; wellness; whakatauki; whānau; word reclamation; youth
DATE: 10 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine, Mein Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the LGBTI* health plenary with Elizabeth Kerekere and Jack Trolove. The session is introduced by Mani Mitchell.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: This last session for today. It's one that I really wanted in the programme. I'm a little bit sad that it's at the end of the day when everyone's tired. So I'm appreciating the fact that people have turned up two years ago when we started the conference. Isn't it funny how time distorts when you're in these very intense thinking emotional times? It's not even 24 hours ago that we started and so much [00:00:30] has happened already. I just want to hold that. So this session, the last of today is a session on LGBTI health and I'm saying LGBTI because it doesn't really represent our community and the totality. It's a great privilege and honour to invite our two guests tonight and we're starting with Elizabeth. I've known Elizabeth for a long time. [00:01:00] We have two people that have worked with youth with our for a long time because I've known way that our future is in our youth. It's not with those of us who are older. Currently, it's the community that's coming after us. Elizabeth reminded me before that she wasn't one of the people that established the she was. That person had established so [00:01:30] I like to organise that I love working with Elizabeth because one of the things about me is I'm a closet glittery person. Glitter doesn't really go with the sort of tomboy male persona that you see most of the time, but Elizabeth isn't closer at all. She's right out there. So I'm looking across Who else at the end of the day when you're exhausted, [00:02:00] would be walking around with parade with the most glittery pair of high heeled shoes that I've ever seen. And I've seen Elizabeth wearing these shoes and very uneven, dangerous looking concrete, and she pulls it off. Please put your hands together for this extraordinary wahi. Elizabeth. [00:02:30] Ah! Oh, uh, I was thinking about when I wanted to acknowledge, uh, many of the travellers. I think some of them it's, uh, coming to the end of a long day. And I want I hope that the next time that they're able to come to this country and we hold a conference or who we can do it on a, uh because then we can lie in what I feel is a much more civilised fashion on mattresses. [00:03:00] And in our culture, it was always fine that you fell asleep because we believed that the discussion in the house you absorbed and and then you would just have someone snoring too. Like you just kind of push them a little bit. It will be fine. Uh, so, well done getting to this point of the day. And, of course, thank you to the organisers. Really, really, truly amazing. Uh, I wanted to do a special shout out to our pacific, [00:03:30] uh, that I think for as Maori our closest relations. In fact, we talk about people of the Pacific being our elder brothers, sisters, gender diverse siblings and that we are I just want to honour their knowledge and acknowledge all of the sacred spaces of all of the places that you have come from the places you live and the places, uh, that you call home, Uh, I wanted to do a particular shout out to my mate [00:04:00] Betty. Uh, we were Oh, yeah. We were teenagers together in the black woman's movement, Uh, nearly 35 years ago, and I just want to acknowledge that be set up. The first Pacific Island social services in this country in the eighties was set up by a 19 year old lesbian, and I think that's pretty incredible. And also, I have a particular [00:04:30] heart for the Pacific because much as I tried very hard to find a Maori girlfriend and I loved high and low, Um, I ended up being a woman that was able to keep my attention. And on on Monday we celebrate 24 years together and thank you because yeah, on one level, I'm totally showing off. But on another level, it's Actually it's a revolution for us to have healthy, happy, [00:05:00] fun, beautiful relationships inside our community. Because when things are good at home, we can operate much better in the rest of the world. OK, and my last thing because, as is my one, I will I take the very seriously, uh, I was going. I don't always dress like this at home just on special occasions and because it's a my partner keeps me in High Heel. Uh, and also, of course, I want to always state my absolute admiration for [00:05:30] the butch aesthetic at every opportunity I get. So I wanted to reference I'm going to get to health by way of some other things. Uh, the theme of the conference around restocking the fires. I thought that was really intriguing because as Maori, we have a particular construct around the and those are the people who keep the home fires burning. So we might all come from a particular place and especially us. [00:06:00] We'll acknowledge our tribes, miners from on the east coast where the sun rises and again any opportunity I have, where there's lots of Maori in the room, I will always talk that we are the centre of the universe just to, you know, just curse. But we the those who stay home, the rest of us go out to find our fortunes and and find ourselves and the rest of the world. They stay home and keep things going. And traditionally the meant that you were settled [00:06:30] in the area and that over time and continuous use, then you could claim that space. And I think that that's really critical when we're talking about recharging, re firing, uh, about claiming the space and continuing. And this is a proverb that I really like. It's which is that while the fire burns, your authority is effective that we must continue [00:07:00] to hold the space because as soon as we stop that talking, as soon as we stop turning up to the meeting and saying the same thing over and over again until it's sorted, we lose the space. And so I wanna talk a little bit, too. About one of the things uh, Sandra mentioned with the report is one of the number one things he talked about. The young people was burnout. And so when we're talking about keeping the fires burning, uh, I think there are real issues [00:07:30] when people who are often sometimes acting as individuals and they're putting all their energy, everything they've got into it burn out really, really quickly. Some of our groups underresourced, are needing to build up capacity and needing support and connection with the rest of our communities. They start to burn out. And I like the idea that Jan talked about last night around a movement, actually that when all of our groups can work together, when we can support each other, when we can know what [00:08:00] each other is doing and be there for each other and be able to speak to each other's issues and whatever forum that we are and whatever privilege that we hold that that is, um that's when we can start really moving because we can move together. And it's not necessary that we all have to agree that are ridiculous. Um, but that we have some common common things that we can move forward together on. And so I wanna talk about I talked a little bit this morning, uh, [00:08:30] about our group. A rainbow is forming in the sky and so be very clear when some people talk about that, they feel that the rainbow is constructed or or based on just certain cover certain identities. For us and particularly as Maori, the rainbow has really specific cultural significance to us. And so it is very, very, uh, completely inclusive. So when we use it as an organisation, when we use it in our talking, [00:09:00] we mean that every single shade, every hue is encompassed within that. And so when we talk about is a traditional term and it's a centuries old term, it mean intimate companion of the same sex. And so we're not gonna turn around and say that the people who lived 500 years ago were lesbian or gay or bisexual. uh, we're not going to say that they were Trans because they had gender fluidity we're going to use [00:09:30] because that was the term they call themselves. But we claim that now to include all of the breadth of our community. Everyone that we see comes under the rainbow and I love this. It was like as an artist, it's like bring on the colours and that how important it is that we each still maintain the right to be able to speak and represent ourselves. And so our goals to tell our stories, to build our communities and to leave [00:10:00] a legacy so that when we do what we do primarily as a Maori organisation, as a organisation, that we do that in the context of our wider community, because if we want to uplift, we need to uplift all of us because as we exist amongst all of the community and all different identities, all different ages and so when we're talking about health then has been involved in many different [00:10:30] projects around health because we are acknowledging all the different identities that we hold, so med school here we've started to develop a relationship with them and that is about identifying primary health needs. Uh, we're going to about to launch into another project around homelessness for LGBTI. Um, IQ and we [00:11:00] are involved in the intersex round table. So there's all different things. We're also involved in many projects around housing other projects and around education and other areas. Anything basically, we can get into. We do. And so later we're going to talk about you will find this and your, um, new project, Something I worked on earlier, Uh, this an important thing. And I talked about what the strategy [00:11:30] is, how important it is to get research and to have the information we need to back up what it is we want to say because and and come back to when an individual says, This is my personal experience. The powers that they were going Hm, That's just you. When it's a group of you, they go. Mm. It's just a few people when it's all of us saying that when all of us and our different identities and different viewpoints we come from are reiterating the same things over and over, Then they cannot help but take notice. And [00:12:00] and two, the two key things. That's one part of it. Is that Western requiring an evidence base to make decisions? But the other part of that for us as Maori is to build up and contribute to which is Maori knowledge base. Because the way things operate in our culture is based on, which is the way things are done, the processes that we use So our is that we welcome our guests. We acknowledge where they come from [00:12:30] before we you know, we we open, we say might use people, use the phrase bless the space. We actually free it, uh, to be used for the purpose for which it has been that you have come here and so it comes from we need to make things right. And so, with the way that things operate is based on, So how we make things work is based on the knowledge base that we have. So for us, as it's really, really important, then to keep building up [00:13:00] this knowledge because in the days before colonisation, when we had a much greater sexuality, open sexuality and gender fluidity, uh, the memory of that has been lost, and that was not by accident because at the same time that we lost the bulk of our language, the culture, the absolute conscious assault in the way that colonisation does its thing. Uh, we lost that knowledge about our sexuality. And so as we regain [00:13:30] that and reclaim that and by claiming the term then we're reaching back to our to our ancestors. That says, actually, we have always been here. Uh, we are claiming that back for now, Uh, it connects us back to our language and our culture and all of those things. But they weren't lost. We still have them and we will reclaim it. And we will add that knowledge until we get to that point where our people realise that discrimination against our people might be part of Maori society. [00:14:00] It is absolutely not part of Maori culture and that every Maori person, every Maori family unit, uh, should be stepping in to make sure that discrimination against us does not exist. And so the way that works is in our rainbow communities. But we also work with our families with our with Maori organisations and and tribal groups. Uh, and so today when we talk about the strategy, then how do we [00:14:30] and all the different layers and all the different ways we need to make things happen For us, as Maori, it's is just as important our culture as it is the way that we express our sexuality, our sexes and our genders. So let's see strategy. I talked plenty about that this morning. That was kind of weird standing there, doing that with the politicians and then having people watching. Um, but I want to talk about this at the moment. I'm just about I've been saying I'm just about finished [00:15:00] the PhD for quite some time now. I'm very conscious. It really is, honestly, nearly finished. Um, but I and that's about the emergence of identity. Uh, I realise that, yeah. No matter how lovingly how well I craft those 100,000 words, not all of you are going to read it. I thought you might read this and working with the Mental Health Foundation. So I think it's one of the ways that operates because, as I say, we're very lean. We focus on our [00:15:30] our performance and being able to work with communities and engage in that way, uh, that we self fund and that a lot of our political work then is is our our voluntary contribution. And so this was a project that we did with the Mental Health Foundation, and this is around the were funded through suicide prevention. Uh, and the way we looked at it, we actually don't talk much about suicide prevention. We look at what it is about in our culture, which will help, [00:16:00] uh, give hope and help build the strength and resilience inside our to look after our young people. Better, uh, with this is a real real issue. And so I'm going to shortly get get Jack from the Mental Health Foundation to talk about that. But I just wanted to coming back to the health when we there's a Maori model of health, some of you who work in the health sector in this country will be familiar with. [00:16:30] And so that looks at the our spirituality, our connectedness with all things in the universe, our our mind, our emotions, the psychological things and our our body, the impacts that it has, and then our because our family, because as Maori people without our family, without that connection to culture, we can't be whole we can't be healthy. And so we see that all the aspects of all the issues for [00:17:00] me, it's like when I think of it, like a mini strategy, Uh, that, because everything is a strategy, everything's a plan. Uh, but all the different issues, all the different things that happen to us within our community and the discrimination we face, but also the awesomeness of our lives fits within that model. And so I am going to hand it over to Jack to talk about this particular [00:17:30] project. So even though Jack is in Auckland, she was actually, um, when she was a she now, Jack, but she wasn't too funny. Goes to Auckland and hello. No. So I'm gonna invite Jack to come, so we'll get to come up and say a few words and we'll do this last bit together. I'll [00:18:00] go if you might. Such a good entry. Yeah. I feel like the thunder has been stolen. I might not, Um Awesome. Yeah. So, um, yeah. As Elizabeth was saying, um, I work at the Mental Health Foundation. Um, my role there is, um Ah. I was, um, suicide prevention specialist. To be honest, we just changed our names. I can't remember. So prevention. Anyway, [00:18:30] it's my thing. Um and it was Yeah, it was really amazing to get to work with Elizabeth, Um, and on this project, So But I guess just a little, um, brief context around suicide prevention, generally as it relates to, um, our communities. Um, right. I guess so. Some time, actually, I had a couple of notes. Yeah, so Yeah. So, um, the vision of our organisation is a society [00:19:00] where all people flourish. Um, so I guess how that where where this connects in is that, um it's nigh on impossible to flourish if there's a pile of kind of barriers and discrimination that a group of people are facing. So, um, that's our kind of inro to being able to work in in this space, um, with the rainbow Communities or whatever. And, um, so all of the kind of evidence, if you look at any [00:19:30] of the research I mean, because it's all you know, we're all us here, are not going to go into all of the kind of horrific, upsetting stats and stuff. But as we all know, our communities are intensely overrepresented when it comes to, um, suicide and mental distress. And, um yeah, because I just also want to take a moment to acknowledge those of our loved ones. Um, who aren't here with us, but are here with us whenever we talk about this, Um, [00:20:00] and yeah. So basically all of the evidence that there is, um and we do need more research, but it all points to the fact that, um, our communities are at distinctly higher risk. Um, because of discrimination and social exclusion, Nothing to do with our, um, our glory Selves or who or how we are. And I think that sort of gets conflated some. There's trickiness there. Um, the amazing [00:20:30] upside of that is that actually, when it comes to our communities, um, suicide prevention is is a real possibility, you know, because if if the discrimination and the social exclusion is removed, then well, being dramatically increases and suicidality dramatically decreases. So it's kind of, um, which makes it incredibly frustrating and horrific when that stuff isn't happening. Yeah, [00:21:00] um, because it is so kind of there is that systemic solution to a lot of things. Um, there was so, um create created a Maori and Pacific Suicide Prevention Fund. And, um, we managed to source, um, some funding through that to produce this beautiful resource. And um yeah, I guess I just wanted to kind of make a brief mention as well that for those of us I I have worked and I used to work at Rainbow Youth and, um, a lot of other really small [00:21:30] NGO, but particularly when you're working in that space. If you the the rainbow organisations it's based it's incredibly so many barriers, All of that of the barriers and exclusion and stuff that we talk about work at all those different levels. So even in terms of trying to get funding, um, it's there are so many barriers to actually getting funding into those organisations. And I have noticed working in a mainstream organisation that suddenly like the, you know, the money can flow through, um, suspicious. But, [00:22:00] you know, um but on the other hand, it's Yeah, it's an amazing opportunity to to be able to kind of get, um, resource for these sorts of things. It was incredible honour to work with Elizabeth and, um and find that synergy between all of the work that um, she does, and it sort of done forever and and working out how to frame that to. So that's also like the idea of if we actually think about what suicide. What constitutes suicide prevention? It is things like, um, community [00:22:30] development. It's strengthening connection to culture. Um, sense of self, all of that stuff. All of those things are like protective factors. So, um yeah, So it was really exciting to be able to make this resource, which was all about, um you know, all of those things that are that increase who we are, you know, and or in this case, increase the, um, well being for and so I guess my other thing that I meant to say was that that that connection [00:23:00] in terms of how that discrimination and everything works, um, with with the way that we got managed to get funding for this project was by, um, making it really clear that, uh, Maori already face a massive heap of barriers, um, and discrimination due to being Maori and then for people who are also LGBTI and therefore those barriers. And, um yeah, all of that increases. So which is why [00:23:30] this is such a, um, important resource. Yeah, um, and also just that beautiful thing of because Elizabeth is also an artist and just happened to have a whole series of exhibition that was based on exactly the same things. Yeah, we had all these really beautiful images to work with. Um, So what we thought we'd do is just, um, show you the, um, the trailer for, um, for the project. It's only like, three minutes. Um, and then Elizabeth was going to talk through the [00:24:00] top 10 tips for which are amazing. Hm. And one of the things that Kevin said in his speech, he talked about laying a platform, and we What we wanted [00:24:30] to do is all of the people who come into this country whether they've been here for generations or recent migrants here, uh, that is we want to lay a platform, uh, that the rest of our communities can build on and be accepted within. So I wanted to run through my top tips. Uh, just to absolutely make a point about definition that the term [00:25:00] embraces all of our diversity. Uh, that being is based on by claiming that we're claiming our Maori culture We're reconnecting with that side of ourselves that it's about Mana that we inherit, man, when we're born by the tribes that we're born into, we inherit man as we live our lives and we accrue it because of our actions. Uh, but that is what we stand on that says, actually, it is unacceptable [00:25:30] to discriminate against us identity. It's about knowing who we are, something all of you are involved in. And inclusion that regardless of whether we speak Maori, whether we know where we come from, that that connection is there and we will accept all of those things, OK, we all inherit our gender and sexuality from our ancestors. I think for so many of us we know our gender when we're very, very young. We know our sexuality, sometimes our sexual [00:26:00] characteristics, and those things don't come to light until later. But those are things that come as part of who we are. And so I believe that's that's our spirituality. That's our ancestors. And so who we are then is a gift from them. And when someone discriminates against us, they trample on that again, not acceptable in our cultural context that we're part of the when people talk about oh gay over there or over there as if it's unacceptable and people say to me, What [00:26:30] do Maori think of? And it's like we are the Maori. We are not separate from It's like that thing where people say, Oh, using taxpayers' money to do something for for our community is like the last time I looked. All of us taxpayers, uh, I digress. Uh, don't need to get it. They just need to be there. Fella talked about always having to be the one that just explains and teaches everybody around you I like, actually, [00:27:00] you don't need to ask a million questions to start off with. You just have to say, you're my baby. Uh, we love you. Anyone else muck with us, They deal with us, we will sort it. Discrimination hurts all of us. Not just those of us who identify within this community. It hurts all of our especially a young woman who have to prove that they are, um, heterosexual [00:27:30] because of the massive pressure it hurts. Or boys in terms of all the things about what does it mean to be a real man in this in our culture and our society. All of those impact right across all of our. And that's why I say when this has been an interesting discussion. When I talk about this amongst other academic circles, Uh, I believe it's because when colonisation came along and it disrupted the status of women and our culture, [00:28:00] so they did not acknowledge us as leaders, as land owners or in in control of land. Uh, and they took away our rights to our own body. Our sexuality put us into the private domestic, and so they they destroyed the balance that made our culture work. And so for me, if we can't get those absolute basics right around gender, we can we can get to the real guts of what it will take to eliminate [00:28:30] discrimination against all of us. Uh, this and they go, Oh, all of the statistics show that if you are LGBTI Q that you're more likely to have depression or to self-harm or be suicidal. And now it is a discrimination against us that contributes to those feelings. Uh, let's be very clear about where that lies. That is not with us. It is with the people who hurt us? [00:29:00] Uh, yeah, that we totally proudly celebrate. We're not going to be apologetic about all of this. We're not going to hide to keep those fires burning. We need to always be out. This is really important for me. When I talk about, particularly in a Maori context is we don't do things separately from our elders and our young people. Those things we work best when we can work together. And so this is really I. I say this [00:29:30] every time I speak, uh, that we want to be part of Wants to be part of a movement, uh, that honours our ancestors respects our elders. We work closely with each other, and we look after our young people, Uh, and that our well-being is complex. It comes. We need a lot of things going on. Uh, we need to do work inside our we have our friends and within our communities and the last ones, this is really important [00:30:00] when we work with, uh we just say, if you're going to be a leader inside your is that you need to step in, and so we talk about promoting acceptance, but the most important thing is challenging, challenging discrimination wherever it occurs in our and so at the back of the book are those tips summarises? What's in the resource? I hope you read it. Uh, there's [00:30:30] one particular, uh, thing I want to bring up that's contained inside here but doesn't feature in the tips. Is that in Maori culture, we have a creature was called a and they were able to change gender and change form. And for me, I believe that our trends intersex and gender diverse, uh, at in present day form and so again from our ancestors from [00:31:00] out of our history and unacceptable that they face discrimination because of that and so again from that Maori platform. And this is something that we hope will be useful for all of you. So anything else? Oh, no, um, [00:31:30] thank you very much for that really incredible presentation. And the question that I wanted to ask is within the movement in New Zealand. How is that aligned? Um, for the recognition of trains within. And the reason why I asked. That is because within the Pacific, um, there is a massive amount of disorientation within the and all the other transgender [00:32:00] identities really about being included within because we're not women enough in our culture where we're excluded. But what? One of the question I'm asking is, how does that translate within New Zealand and the movement? So that was the question that I wanted to Mm. I think as we fully accept that if you are dealing with someone's, then regardless of the gender, that they were assigned [00:32:30] at birth, Uh, regardless of their appearance, or whether they express the gender that is right for them, that is true to the is the one that they are that is the and so for for us, then That's really simple then and so And we don't hasn't at this stage yet been involved directly, although individuals of us have. We certainly represented with some of the United Nations work, but absolutely. And [00:33:00] I would see that that's absolutely part of the, uh, national strategy that we very categorically it will be forcing, suggesting really strongly to our government that that be made very, very clear. And as when Joey and, uh, Jack and Sally made their presentation talking about putting gender identity and sexual characteristics on as grounds are we cannot be discriminated against in a human rights act. I think that those [00:33:30] things are all will lead into that work, but absolutely, absolutely transform. Mm. I just wonder, how do you actually use this resource? What would you say? How you would actually use it, you know, in real terms. So I presume you don't just give it out to people. I mean, normally I find when you give things out to people, they tend not to read them. Um, they just would you go [00:34:00] through it with people, Would you? I know I work in mental health, and I've spoken to people if you give them something that they hardly have all the statistics. So if you give them a piece of information, they honestly it's like 1% or 2% actually, ever open it up. I just wondered. I don't know. Maybe you found it different, but, um well, I suppose we give it to those people who asked for it. So our primary audience for this was members who are struggling to, um, encourage [00:34:30] and support the members. So that was kind of the first thing. And then it's kind of mushroomed out, uh, to other people who so that they can become familiar with the term. And because we have the film resource, that's the trailer. We actually have extended interviews of each of those people. And so it was, It's it's kind of it's part of the education and some real everything inside this is very much [00:35:00] couched within Maori culture, so that it's a thing for our to understand. Uh, one of the tips is that we have always been here, that this is not a foreign or white thing, actually, with the names we might use Lesbian Trans, those might be recent terms, the identities that who we are, Um, that is ancient. And so that's what this is, um, to do I wonder, Jack, you'd mentioned that you've used or use this resource in some of your work. [00:35:30] Or how do you What do you have when I when I've gone to some places, um, overseas. And there's many parts of the world where people struggle that, you know, all of these terms are Western concerts or if you're in the global south of the global North ones, and I just say, Look, this is a one resource because it doesn't start by saying this is what sexual orientation, gender identity and intersex or sex characteristics is. And then by the time we get to the end, and [00:36:00] here are some Maori people who are this instead, it starts from man. All of the things that you, you know, that are so intrinsic to being Maori, and then it says, And this is why you you you, you know, if you discriminate against you are hurting yourselves, you know, we are hurting each other, so I think that's just there's such a power in that. And so the people I show it to well, they love it. It looks pretty. [00:36:30] It doesn't have too many words. That's wonderful. When we when we're talking, yeah, it's got It's not too long and people love that. It comes from another part of the world and and like in Nepal, I showed it to people in Nepal and they remember Elizabeth because Elizabeth came to a meeting there. So it's that relationships works, and so they take it. They look at the pictures and they say, Oh, I know her And the people who play sport sport knew Kevin [00:37:00] and, um I don't know Yeah, so it it it it it does. It does work, and it's interesting. I remember thinking like when you know, you think that that's so small. When we brought out the transgender inquiry report, it's so big, I thought, who would ever pick it up? But you know, you'd have it on stores and lots of people from NZ PC would pick it up because they had pictures of people they knew and they had their stories in it. So I think some of our stuff there's a hunger and particularly Maori [00:37:30] resource Pacifica resources. There's a hunger that needs to be met, to have those resources and to find ways of funding them. I would just add to that I'm I'm a therapist and and work with our community. Um, I've only had access to the resource in recent times, but I'm thinking with clients that I would have loved to have had that book with, and that's how I use it now and you can use it with anybody. You can use it with [00:38:00] a young person or an older person, and you go through the narrative and you go, I'm really sad that your family is being an asshole to you right now, but that's not OK. And we read the the story together and to have the person hear a narrative and see it in the book that actually what's going on is not OK is just so powerful. So I would say yes. This resource has been created, um, to give visibility to Taku. [00:38:30] But this is a resource for the planet that anybody can use. Thank you for the gift. I know. Thanks very much for that. Um so could you use this resource with healthcare professionals as well? That's That's one of the things I'm wondering because I think it would be really cool. Absolutely any way that it can be used. We want to get that out, get the word out. And And I would just say, too, that [00:39:00] we've got two more resources under way that will follow that up. We're working at the moment with Rainbow Youth to do one. We were interviewing, uh, young people, uh, but also their parents and their grandparents, and to say Yeah, so awesome. And we So then we say, How do you create a how do you actually make this a real thing to be accepting and deal with issues and whatever comes up. How do we make that happen? And then the third one again, with the Mental Health [00:39:30] Foundation around healthy relationships around how we, uh, negotiate. And then we're starting to move out from looking at our broader communities and whether we're wanting to have, like, the long term monogamous thing that I've got going on with my partner or we're polyamorous or we're working as organisations with each other. How do we relate? Uh, so that's the, um that won't be starting soon, So they should be The first one will be out this year and on following. So yeah, it's just real practical. And just [00:40:00] to, um, touch up on that as well, you can order them for free. So the Mental Health Foundation website, you go to that and then you go and, um, you go to either shop or media and then you can order as many as you want for free. Um, so, yeah, everybody order piles and piles of them, and then we can we can get them reprinted. And also just we have had a lot of feedback from, um various health providers and stuff as well. Who? Yeah, find that they are actually, and again. And I think every great [00:40:30] point, um, about people not usually reading resources. But I. I do think that this one might be a bit different just because there is such a de of anything. And there seems to be like, Yeah, because it's such an accessible resource and in a space where there is, I mean, it's technically as far as the research that we did. It was like the first, um, indigenous Rainbow LGBTI suicide prevention resource in the world. It's, [00:41:00] um so the the need for that kind of information is massive, and and it can be extended through that. We've just got the trailer up at the moment, but eventually we'll get the full videos up, and then they can be used in a workshop setting or all sorts of things. And that's people of different ages between like the yeah, from, um, different and different identities, and from their twenties to, [00:41:30] um, I just wanted to save it. I have never identify this because I have not felt comfortable enough [00:42:00] in my but, um, hearing you speak today and hearing your explanation that it covers all of us. Um, that I am ready to clean it, and I just wanted to save it. [00:42:30] Right. Thank you so much. Um, I Sorry, I'm a slow thinker. So this came a bit later, but I just thought looking at that and the way it's set out And also just coming from a really fantastic session with the Pacific delegates and, um, a presentation from Kim about, um, Christianity and LGBTI Rainbow, that there's so much crossover. And I think this would be a really great resource to share with people from different religious backgrounds who also are [00:43:00] rainbow. Um, because there's so much crossover, the spirit, the spirituality side, so much crossover. And I think it's, you know, in a lot of it, just debates. There's so there's so much difference and people get lost in the detail. And what I like about what I've seen from this is that it really pulls back, and it gives like, that broad picture of the stick thing, and and just the the amount of crossovers would be really great to share with people you know, Islamic brothers and sisters, Christian brothers and sisters and people from different religions because it comes from [00:43:30] that really great strong base. Um, so, yeah, thank you very much. Sorry. Hello, everyone. Um, yeah. I'd like to applaud you for this presentation. It kind of like, um, made me feel more, um, how to say it empowered and inspired. Um, because I come from a country where it's very cultural, uh, dominated as well. Or from and [00:44:00] from my home island. We believe that there ever exist the existence of LGBT community, and we've even got LGBT worries as well. And, um, just looking at your presentation, I feel that from now in the present day, we are not really fully, um, cultural identity. Um, well, we we speak about cultural identity, but we are not really it is today, because we are. We are, We are. We forgot about the past and just reading [00:44:30] us in this document that you have it kind of like, made me want to go back and dig further down back into the history books and, you know, the the New Zealand to find more information about this, um, the history. Because once we dig up that history and get more information about it, then we can incorporate into the present so that we can move forward to the towards the future and then claim to say we are out. Um, we have the cultural identity, Thank you. And it's so [00:45:00] critical when we're talking about research, always bring that up. It was two of our scholars who got to the position where they could access material, which wasn't easy to access by anybody else. And they found that word for us and gave it to all of our communities. And so, I, I really applaud your suggestion. That's an incredible idea, too. Uh, because that's we have always been here. We are an ancient people from ancient cultures, and that [00:45:30] knowledge of that exists much as, and I've tried to get rid of it. We will find something somewhere. And sometimes it's in a story. Uh, yeah. One day, when the PhD comes out, I've found some new things, uh, that I'll be able to talk about. But the way I've trying to that that it took me months to find out and confirm, uh, that it was exactly what I thought it was lesbian sex and they [00:46:00] but yeah, that is an awesome. OK, I would like to finish with a Y. Betty. No. Oh, you wanna cut it off or were you leave you come up? I was gonna be a waiter. Well, this is a way which I'm going to get everyone to join in that there's a couple of areas which repeat, uh, which is great for me because, you know, fitness is not my strength. Uh, so my breathing [00:46:30] is always, always that great. Uh, so there's a couple of lines where I'm gonna get you to repeat. So one of them is Let's remember, um So what the first one is, we won't kneel down and then you repeat, Got so and then upon the ground Brilliant. And then we're going to swap into Maori and the two phrases are [00:47:00] beautiful and fantastic. Do you know this? I know anyone else that knows us. Absolutely joining. So we here what is was the nation and cross [00:47:30] the wide wide creation We won't kneel down up Good. Oh, how I love to hear them sing my mom, OK, time. [00:48:00] No, not happy the up. [00:48:30] Oh, thank you. Um and I've just been asked, uh, they may not appreciate this but today's money's birthday word on the street. So I would like to ask [00:49:00] Yeah, thank you, everyone. I didn't plan for that to happen. It was so interesting [00:49:30] because for most of my life, my birthday was the day I hated. It was a day that had a lot of sadness around it. So I didn't want this to happen. But I will take it away as a memory of my family singing to me. So thank you and.

IRN: 1043
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/surviving_and_thriving_as_an_activist_proud_2016.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004416
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089710
TITLE: Surviving and Thriving as an Activist - Proud 2016
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Mani Bruce Mitchell; Tommy Hamilton
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Critical Incident Stress; Jeffrey T. Mitchell; Lego; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Melbourne; Netflix; Proud 2016 (Wellington); The Twilight Zone (tv); Tommy Hamilton; Vietnam veterans; Wellington; activism; agile methodology; anger; awhi; books; burnout; cats; check-in plan; children; chocolate; civil defence; clothing; community; community support; compassion; conference; disconnection; eating; erasure; exclusion; exclusiveness; failure; family; fencing; film; food; friends; frustration; gardening; gender identity; internet; intersex; marginalised communities; mental health; mentor; mirror; mistakes; misuse of power; music; nature; plan; power; privilege; pronouns; resilience; resource; road trip; saying no; self awareness; self care; self image; silence; singing; sleep; spaces; sport; success; suicide; support; sustainability; teacher; television; transgender; trauma; travel; volunteer; vulnerability; water; whānau; witness; workshop; writing
DATE: 10 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine, Mein Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the workshop: Surviving and Thriving as an Activist
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: The workshop we're having today is I have a number of passion areas, but this is one of my oldest, so many and it is many years ago now, Um, my first training was in education, so as a teacher and then in a strange way that sometimes careers can take odd corners. I ended up working in civil defence and I used to think it was funny. [00:00:30] It was my standard joke. I used to say to people that I was a head towing a body around which was true, but not very healthy. So I have a PhD and association, and I was very good at doing that. And civil defence was my perfect safe place because I was working with other people who were probably as traumatised and associated as I was mostly Vietnam vets. They were guys, they were men and in civil defence, [00:01:00] um, over a number of years, I I rose up to a very senior position. I was regional civil defence manager here and and that role sent various staff off to disasters not only here in New Zealand but in the Pacific. And what I noticed when people came back they were different people, and I didn't understand that. I didn't understand what had happened. And so I started doing some research and some training, and I found [00:01:30] out about a model that was set up by a fireman called Jeffrey Mitchell and interestingly, um, a a blue collar fireman in New York. And he had been on his way to a wedding with his wife in a car, dressed in a suit and a civilian car, and he had come up upon a car accident and in the car accident, a man had been impaled with a bar that had come up from the side of the road. [00:02:00] And if Jeff had been in his fire truck, he would not only have had the equipment, but he would have had everything else that he needed to save this man's life. But he was there in the rain, in his suit with nothing, and it traumatised him, and he completely felt a bit, um and so And he was invalided out of the fire service. And so he went on, and, um, I studied psychology and various other things and put this model together, [00:02:30] which was called critical incident stress. So I went off to do this training because I wanted to look after my staff and and do it in an appropriate way and and to do something for the people that I could see had been affected. It's interesting because in those days it was nothing to do with me. It was a manager looking after their staff well, and it was only when I myself had to leave civil defence because I'd I'd hit a wall. Um, what we would describe as [00:03:00] burnout that I started my own journey. So as a mental health professional, I see a community of people that are very good at caregiving, extremely good, usually at caregiving and what we're not very good as as a profession is caring for ourselves. So again, I'm seeing very high rates of burnout in my profession, but more I look in the community, my community, [00:03:30] my family and I see burnout. But I have the resources now to look and think about you know what's going on and I'm seeing the lateral violence in our community. I'm seeing the fact that because we're a highly marginalised community, it is easier to attack each other than it is to be clear about where we need to go with our anger and our frustration. [00:04:00] And also there are real issues in our community that need addressing, and we we sometimes struggle how to do that. So this workshop and Tommy and I have developed it comes very much out of my own experience. And so what we want to do today is to create a safe, a safe place to talk about some of those issues. But more. What I would love for this workshop is is people to go away with both permission [00:04:30] and a passion that the most important person that you can look after is yourself. And until we know how to do that, really well, we're actually crap at looking after other people. And it's a really, really hard thing to learn and to do and practise, you know, And and I'm here at this conference. I came back from Canada 3. 5 weeks ago [00:05:00] and I haven't had a day off. I've been working 12 hour days. If I had a flat inspection at the moment, I would be evicted. You know, there are unopened, half empty suitcases, and I think here I am practising everything that I know not what to do. You know, How did they get into that space again So we can have all this knowledge, But we can still fall back into these places, and part of it is, you know, our perfection, our desire to attend to all the things that need attending to. [00:05:30] So how can we do all that and do it gently and I'm not going to beat up on myself. But after this conference, I'll disappear for a couple of weeks. People will not be able to find me, and I'll be doing the things that I know that reground me that take me back into a a healthy place. You know, I'll be paying real attention to the food that I'm eating and doing the things that I know that I need to do to laugh, because for me, laughter is the thing that that grounds me and brings me back into a health place. So that's an [00:06:00] introduction to my philosophy. I'm now going to invite Tommy to talk to you, and and then we're going to do some work together as a group. I run. Um uh, with this workshop. I'm kind of the to, um some of the concepts that money is talking about. And I guess that demonstrates the work that we do in this community because we don't do things alone, and we don't do things. Um, [00:06:30] we we don't do things in a way that is unsuccessful. So, um, the way I've met some of the philosophy man has talked about and some of the insight that I'd like to share in this workshop today is around the beauty of making mistakes. Uh, and the beauty of not of not knowing something and how, um [00:07:00] sometimes our experiences of resilience are so powerful. We are so resilient that our understanding of vulnerabilities that we have in ourselves can be really unmet. And, um and I guess the notion of activating is, um sometimes there's some of us that are quiet in background spaces, activating. [00:07:30] And some of us who are really forward in the world and quite, uh, recognisable. How do we manage? You know, So those ideas of meeting those dynamics within our communities is, um, where we often find those mistakes and how we can, how we can work alongside them mistakes and and and hold them in ways that aren't going to harm us or re reengage any sense of failure. So because often in [00:08:00] in activism work, there's a sense that you haven't you know that idea. Basically, where it comes from is the idea of OK, I'm gonna get up again today. I'm gonna talk about this thing with the person, and it might be their gender identity. It might be their lack of family or it might be their work problems. It might be because, you know, or it might be that they're they're running a community group or they've got a support group or they've got an activist group. All of these problems and I [00:08:30] have for me to do that work and listen. I have to be interested in that. It's really unsuccessful if I'm not interested in it. So I've grown and to to, you know, I'm really fascinated by the concept of mistakes and successes and what those mean to each of us. So, um, I guess that's where my philosophy sits around the idea of, uh, sometimes people call it self-care. But sometimes it's more about self awareness. I feel than [00:09:00] just, you know, the self-care is the action part Where we OK, I need to sleep in. Uh OK, I need to eat. Well, OK, I need to rest. You know, those are those things that we we know we have to remind ourselves of. And where's What's that next phase and what is that? Self-awareness. So you can sustain the work you're doing in your communities. Um and so that you're not you. You are able to access the care for yourself so you can be available for others. And, um [00:09:30] you know, So that's sort of my little philosophy around, uh, activating, I guess. So what we're going to do now, Is it OK if I is getting into small groups and there's three questions and I want everyone in the group to answer. So the first one we'll call a This is things that are going on in our community [00:10:00] that really bad people at the time. Yes. Yeah. Now there's a a key here it things, not people. OK, so the really key thing is this is not a time to blow off about an individual person, so it's to take the person out of it and turn it into what the issue is. B is the things that you know about yourself. You you might not [00:10:30] do these things, but the things that make you feel good that that reground you that put the grim put the energy back on. Um, and some people might struggle with that because not always have we had the chance to think about it. What was the I'll keep thinking about it, and so that that's to get you, [00:11:00] um, started. So we've got a big space. Now, if you are comfortable with your discussion being recorded, you can come down here and do it. Just one group can do that, But I'm suggesting that we've got quite a big space here and people can, you know, and And it's weird. I don't mind if people sit on the steps. Is the group still out? Yeah, OK, so we we are used, so I'm gonna suggest steps up there, steps up there, and we've sort of got another group there. And those [00:11:30] of us who have got old knees and old bones can stay in chairs and just maybe a very small group sort of talking, um, horizontally two or three people so just going back. So this is a a session about I. So if if people's statements to stay very, I anchored them or stay safe and and within the groups, if you can self monitor so that there's a a general sharing of of time. So whether you're in a group of two or a group of four, [00:12:00] so there's, um, the A and the B, and I'll wreck my somewhat tired brain and see if I can remember what C was going to be. Otherwise, Tommy and I will come up with a new C, and that's fine as well. Remember what we were talking about before? It's OK to make mistakes. It's OK to have tired brain as well. So let's just, um, break into those groups and I invite people who are feeling sort of a bit excited on on the edge to go with people that they don't know. But if you're feeling tired [00:12:30] and and frazzled and fragile, then stay with people that you know and feel safe with Either is fine, thank you outside so but we've got an exercise to do So because part of this is recognising the preciousness of every single life here in the room, right? And as activists, we can sometimes forget that and and we talked. And and a lot of the work that Tommy and [00:13:00] I do is around, um, suicide prevention and suicide awareness. And we know what the figures are. They're horrifying for our community. And as I said at the opening, if we go out into the margins, the numbers look ghastly. So the fact that you are here is extraordinary because it means you are survivors. You just got a little exercise. So we gonna turn out to the person, not touch them, because that's not appropriate. Just looking into the eyes and just seeing the person next to you and the person [00:13:30] next to you is seeing you. We're just going to do that for probably 30 seconds. Does it work? We got the right numbers. You And just at the end of the process, you say to that person I see you and the other person [00:14:00] says back, I see you. I see you and we're just gonna do a swap. Do it with another person. Doesn't matter who you 000, I see you of the senses and Sometimes we need to do that for ourselves when we get up [00:14:30] in the morning. I know for some of us, it is extraordinarily painful to look in the mirror. OK, it's not always comfortable who's looking bad at it. But in the privacy of your own bathroom. Just reminding yourself the preciousness of your beer. OK? And we also just share. Sorry, we're not sitting down. We just run out of chairs. It's not a normal, but no, no, no, [00:15:00] no, no, don't look in. We just want to name that we're not standing up to look powerful. We're just We're just kind of standing because if we want to do all have chair, so thank you. Carry on. So we're just going to go around? This is our chance to say out loud with with no, just saying out loud, The one big thing you're on top thing that bugs you about our community, so we'll start here. Oh, I think one of the things that I went to was the disconnectedness of it. [00:15:30] Um, and I felt I felt a bit like the the disconnection in our community, um, being silenced and like erasure of identities silenced and erasure. Um, exclusiveness, um, and not inviting people in to be friends Exclusiveness not inviting people in to be friends, [00:16:00] um, amongst the volunteers when they don't do what they say they're going to do so people not doing what they said they're going to do, um, power and the misuse of that power and vulnerable community and our vulnerable within the vulnerabilities of that community, it must use of power to the vulnerability in our community, sadness and frustration at a lack of [00:16:30] resourcing and compassion that a sadness around the lack of resourcing in our community. Um, I suppose exclusiveness and misuse of power, exclusiveness and misuse of power um, lack of community, um, pulling together around difficult issues, lack of community [00:17:00] support, lack of community pulling together and lack of community support. Mine was more a personal failure. A feeling of failure that I've been working for a long time and, uh, particularly with the medical community, have really made no difference. Well, that's a different one. So a very visceral held [00:17:30] position of a sense of failure. Thank you. I'm not being counted not being counted. It's almost an anger over some voices being privileged over others so that yeah, some people are never heard, and others take all space. So some voices being given privilege and some voices never being heard. Thank you. Just take a moment and and let's honour [00:18:00] what's been put in the room. Just every single one of those statements was important. Tommy, I'm gonna ask you to lead this next round and and, um, witnessing the statements, things that feel good to do I'll start over on this side, um, singing, singing and having music and really loving that energy. Singing and [00:18:30] loving the energy of sounds and music and voice. Um, creating what? The words writing creative writing. I also quite enjoy writing. But my honest answer would really be chocolate. Um, spending time with good friends and being in nature, being in nature, Enjoying time? [00:19:00] Um um, me fencing with foil. But another thing is attending conferences like this with wonderful people like yourself meeting and engagement in conferences and sword. What fencing is the word, I think. Sorry. Fencing with foil, trying [00:19:30] to take space for myself and to just do nothing finding space for yourself to do nothing. Being in the water and the Pisces. Um, and also getting takeaways, watching Netflix and fucking around on the Internet, being in the water, getting takeaways, watching Netflix and fucking around on the Internet, travelling [00:20:00] with my family, going away on holidays and family spending time with and my flatmates and our five cats spending time with a bunch of fluffy cats hanging out with family in, um, eating, eating food, dessert. OK, let's specify eating, [00:20:30] um, spontaneous road trips and creative things with Lego spontaneous road trips and creating things with not at the same time at different time. Lots of people got too. So I want to chat my favourite passion to reading books, reading books with words. So holding that duality of those things that nurture us in some senses, literally [00:21:00] and other senses viscerally against the first things that we shared, which are those things that del us and empty us. So I'm not going to go around and say who had a plan. But what? I'd like people from this workshop today, gently. This is not something we're going to check up on is to have people leaving today with a mini plan, and that first thing is that plan of reminding yourself [00:21:30] of the importance of you as a being and then seeing what I want you to think about is those big things that bug us because they are the things that get under our skin, you know, for whatever reason, they they can get under our skin. Is is what you can do to protect yourself. And we're gonna have a conversation because I'm sure people have got different ideas and Tommy's idea might work for me. Or I might think, that's ridiculous. That wouldn't work for me. But it might stimulate some thinking. And then just this little tiny plan [00:22:00] that you're going to take away and and we're just going to work in pairs. So we first of all, just going to check in with every one, OK, those big things that bug us and then the things that feel good to do and and just sharing each other. OK, what? What might your mini plan look like now? When? When I was doing that work with, um, Civil Defence and and I met the guy that, um, originally developed that I mean, he he was a paramedic. So it's he he used to say, you know [00:22:30] I. I take my pops and he wasn't meaning literal pox. But he had some stuff that he used to do. Jeffrey Mitchell was his name to sort of check, and Tommy will laugh. But I know when my red lights are starting to go up, I lose things. You know, I put my camera down in the shop and then walk away one of the most precious things in my life. The other thing that I do is I start falling over. OK, so that tells me that I'm tired [00:23:00] and dissociating. You know, I'm I'm not grounded. I'm not connected. So they're my red lights. So they're the things that I need to check in. So thinking also about what? You know yourself, you know, it might be that I'm not sleeping. It might be that instead of having that one sweet treat that I've given myself permission for, I've been in a whole chocolate cake, and that might make me feel good right now. But, you know, tomorrow I feel absolutely terrible and it starts affecting my [00:23:30] self-image. And again, I'm not judging here. These are These are things for ourselves. So for the next quarter, of an hour. We're developing and peers some details around that plan. OK, now again, let's have the same rules that we had before. The challenge is to work with someone you don't know, but this is about staying safe. So if you want to do this work with someone that you do now, I said parents. And if the safest person [00:24:00] in the room has got a buddy, just check in with them and say, Can we be a three? Because I would really like to work with you guys some again. There's not rules about it has to be a pair. It's just the bigger the group gets, the less time you're going to have to develop your plan so some people might go great. I'm gonna be the plan of in a group of 10, and then the chance of me talking it's very simple to give yourself the gift of being in a group where you get the chance to talk a bit more and again. [00:24:30] Same thing. I don't mind if people pretend they are moles and disappear. That's fine. Me and cats. Yeah, me cats are like that, right? So, um, come back at five minutes past four. You sure? Right? So we were realising that we didn't do what we normally do at the beginning of any workshop, which is we provide a space for people to introduce [00:25:00] themselves. It was this sort of weird lecture theatre space through me, and I'll take responsibility for for that fact. So what we're going to do now is we're going to go around and we're going to do that. So your name, your preferred gender pronoun and then I. I don't want the details of all your plan because that's personal to you. But but just a summary of what you've decided to take out of here the bit that you you want [00:25:30] to share normally when we're doing this, work with people that you have a contract with, someone who's not gonna have you done your plan yet. But the support person that's just going, you know, how are you rolling, Tom? Is it going OK? Is there anything that I can do to help not checking in on details at all, and I'm not going to require anyone to do that. But keep that in mind, because if we hold it inside our own heads and we're changing that slightly [00:26:00] by speaking out loud. It's not likely to happen. But for some of you here, there might not be a safe person that you feel OK to actually tell your plan and have that. So, you know, when I said about the exercise in the morning looking in the mirror, you can have a a silent conversation with that person and just kind of, you know, how's it going today and kind of check in with each other? Like, is it shut or is it actually rolling? OK, at the moment. So just going [00:26:30] around, Um, and we don't have huge amounts of time. So if people could be mindful of that, so name pronoun and then a little bit of detail about your plan. So, um, my name is Manny. My pronoun. Is they them? Um, and what I'm going to do on Sunday when all this is finished is just [00:27:00] spend some time out on my deck weeding because my plants have not had any attention at all for the last really since Christmas. And and doing that, I'm I'm just going to go back. I've got my own plan. It's just needs looking at. And I'm just going to go through myself and check in. And Tommy and I are colleagues. I'm not expecting Tom to check in on me at all, but when I've done that, I'm just gonna check in and say What? What's going on? And if [00:27:30] I'm needing anything from my colleague, I'll be explicit. But probably all I'm going to need is Tom to listen and not do anything. But I'll be very clear when I have that conversation that I want you to do something or I just want you to be my witness. Oh, I'm Lynn Pronoun. Is she here? Um, I think my plan might be [00:28:00] to say no and, um, I don't know how I'm gonna check in with him. I might have to check him with myself at night time and those awake times I think the hardest vote for any of us who care about our community to learn is that simple, You know, vote. It's really, really hard. Thank you. [00:28:30] I'm Margaret, and she and I didn't really come up with a plan that I did this. So but, uh, I I'll try not to be such a perfectionist. Thank you. And is she who pronounce? And, um, my mini plan is at the end of the conference today. I'm gonna just consciously check in about where I'm at and then make my plan from [00:29:00] there and maybe just try to prepare for my workshop and a limited amount of time and constrain that and then have the rest of my evening. Hm. Um, I'm Nathan, and I prefer male pronouns. Um, part of my, um, plan on checking in is, um, communicating with family and just telling them how I feel because I tend to bottle it up a bit. So mhm. I'm Geraldine Preferred pro Anna. She, I suppose, [00:29:30] networking with wonderful people like yourself because, boy, there are so many interesting things I've heard so far. And on a personal level, um, trying to get better at fencing and finishing series three and five of the Twilight Zone. Thank you. Um, my name is I use he and pronouns, um, in our group. We brought it into the immediate, [00:30:00] Um um So tonight I'm gonna have a really nice hot shower or maybe a bath, and I'm only gonna do a little bit of work on my presentation for tomorrow, and then I'm just gonna aesthetically make it look pretty. I'm not gonna do brain work. Thank you. Awesome. Um, Kilda, I'm Jack. And, um, I'm going with [00:30:30] boyish pronouns. Um, and I think I'm getting the swing of what's happening. So I think my thing is, I'm just basically hanging out to cuddle my brand new nephew and yeah. Yep. So that's going to be my job. Um, Jason, he or may pronounce, um, when I get back to Melbourne on Saturday night. I've got work Sunday, but [00:31:00] I'm planning on having a Monday off and going to see a couple of films with my husband. So, um, everyone Melissa she her pronouns. Um, my plan is to let my older sister know that I have a plan. Um, and let her know that when I'm not talking to her for a week, it's not because I don't like her anymore. It's because I probably am pushing her away. Um, and so I particularly need her to keep checking in with me in those times. [00:31:30] Thank you. Um, my name is Kay. Um I don't care what pronouns any or none is fine. Gender is not really my thing. Um, and I was thinking creatively about my plan, so that not just do a checklist. But I've been learning about agile methodology, and I think I want to do a mini, agile board where I've got my [00:32:00] to do my work in progress. My done my sort of, you know, topics and actually break it sort of down in a way that because I've always got too much on the go, But I actually enjoy that. And so it's more about how I manage it and prioritise it. And, um, other than that also culling my collections, like the clothes to the secondhand, um, sale that's coming up the New Horizons Trust to run in the, um, books because the book fair. You know all of those things, I. I collect [00:32:30] things and I try and redistribute them. But, you know, thank you. Um, my name is Bella. I use she her pronouns. Um, again, we were sort of thinking in the immediate plan, and after this, I'm gonna go to the supermarket and buy great food. Mhm. Yeah. Um, my name is Beck. I use she and her pronouns today. Um, and I I think, [00:33:00] um I need to find a mentor, actually, um, from within our community somewhat. Yeah. Thank you for that. Hi. I'm Tommy. I use, um EMM. Yesterday I used guy person. Um, and I'm trying to think of my check in plan, which is very hard, because my brain is really busy. And, um, Jack is staring at me [00:33:30] to know what that is. I could see you staring at me. Um, so I'm going with I'm going with Oh, yes, my chicken is drinking water. And, um uh, eating some vegetables. No more sandwiches for the next few days because I've been busy. Uh, and I'm also going to my other part of my check in is, I will make sure I ring Marie once I get back to Auckland, [00:34:00] and, um, I will just randomly ask how they're doing, and then they'll ask me how I'm doing randomly, and we both won't admit that we're checking in. Uh, it'll be kind of cool, like, Hey, how you doing? Good. Yeah. So, um, and there is one other aspect, which is II. I said exactly what Jack was saying. That [00:34:30] there there is, um, a little Bubby that I'm gonna meet and cuddle on Sunday, which always regenerates me. And also, hopefully I can connect with my goddaughter who's here in town at the moment. So cuddling little little humans will be really important. Thank you, everyone. So this workshop, you know, these are the fastest 1. 5 hours that you have [00:35:00] in months. They just go by so fast. So all all we've done is scrape across the surface of what, um, self care looks like and how it works. But I'm hoping there's a few seeds that might be planted in the ground and, um, allowed to grow the other thing. I would say, Be gentle with yourself if you get to Wednesday and you know it's not working. It's not working like start again or think. OK, I. I want to rethink this self-care [00:35:30] idea. But I come back to the point that I've just said that the most important work that you can be doing is looking after yourself, and it's not a bad thing. So the the saying to a friend or a colleague, Um, even somebody in pain, it's actually OK to go, Tommy, I can't do that now. you check in on Wednesday and then you need to find someone else. My my bucket's dry. I can't [00:36:00] do this now. That's OK. And we really you know, they're the hardest things to to do, because if we're that depleted, even if our friend is really in need, we're not going to be able to listen appropriately. We're not going to be able to go appropriately. So that's, um, the end of our workshop because I want to give people just It's only 10 minutes, but a space to transition out of the space and into, um, our last plenary for the day. [00:36:30] So it's the end of our workshop and thank you, Thank you. And written in your own car but me.

IRN: 1037
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/love_life_fono_6_proud_2016.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004415
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089709
TITLE: Love Life Fono 6 - Proud 2016
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Tanu Gago; Tim Baice
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland Pride Festival; Cindy of Samoa; Darren Tainue; Edward Cowley; Fetu-ole-moana Teuila Tamapeau; Fuimaono Karl Pulotu-Endemann; Grant Jones; HIV / AIDS; Jack Byrne; Jaycee Tanuvasa; Jonathan Selu; Julie Ongoongotau; Kassie Hartendorp; Ken Moala; Love Life Fono; Love Life Fono Trust; Love Your Condom; Mama Tere Strickland; Māori; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Nga Kete Wananga Marae (Manukau); Oceania; Pasifika; Phylesha Brown-Acton; Proud 2016 (Wellington); Samoa; Sonya Apa Temata; Tanu Gago; Tim Baice; Timothy Swann; Torranice Campel; University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine; Wellington; branding; church; community; condoms; culture; fa'afafine; fakaleiti; funding; gender identity; homosexual law reform; indigenous peoples; intergenerational; mahi; mental health; navigation; partnership; prevention; pride; respect; sex; sexual health; sexual orientation; suicide; suicide prevention; trans; transgender; whakapapa; youth
DATE: 10 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine, Mein Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: It can't be presumed that all Oceania LGBTIQ people are navigating toward the same destination. We are a diverse community with needs that ebb and flow as precariously as the oceans tides. Where ever our people seek to arrive, Love Life Fono facilitates relevant connections to support people in their journey.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: It's a, um my name is Tim. My day job is I teach at the University of Auckland in the faculty of Education and Social Work. And, um, last year, I was also very fortunate to be a member of the Love Life Committee as well as various other things that all of us are engaged in. So So I thought I would, um, introduce the love life fun with a video a historical video from, uh, the second love Life Fun. We've had six so far. Um, and it's a bi annual conference that happens every two years. And [00:00:30] so I'm just gonna contextualise our presentation with a video from the second Love Life. Fun. Cool. Um, I wanted to show that video. It's pretty dated. And, um, what I enjoy about it is that, uh, a lot of the people who, uh, at that time were working in the space is still here today, still working in the space. And I want to acknowledge those people who are currently, uh, in the room with us today. [00:01:00] Um, I'm gonna do my best to try and not sound. I like to pretend like, um, I'm an enthusiastic reader of speeches. But, um, my friend said to tell me that I sound like a robot, So I'm gonna try. I'm gonna try my best, because I, I kind of put a bit of a speech together, but I'm gonna try my best to get through it. So, um, thank you, everybody for your patience. Um, as a someone [00:01:30] as a Pacific person, I never get my way forward into the future, Uh, grounded in a Pacific context that is intrinsically connected to the past. It's my cultural heritage that places me and locates me within the context of the world. And without it, navigating that place in the world becomes a little bit problematic. I'd like to introduce this presentation by offering up a historical context that illustrates only a handful of milestones that have led myself and my [00:02:00] organisation to this point in our journey. Um, I'd like to acknowledge that this is merely an overview, and this is merely an overview of our Rainbow Pacific genealogy and something that I'm very proud to be part of. I work for the New Zealand AIDS Foundation as the um, community engagement coordinator, and essentially what my role is is to uh, promote safety amongst Pacific Island communities and for us safety, uh, [00:02:30] looks like HIV prevention and awareness. And so one of the key roles or the key ways that we try to promote prevention amongst our people is by promoting condoms. And so our national campaign for HIV prevention is referred to as love your Condom, which is a campaign that, um, we use to encourage people to make more informed and educated decisions around their sexual behaviour around, um, their [00:03:00] sexual choices as well. Um, as you can imagine, in a Pacific context, it's quite difficult to broach the subject of sex. Um, and if only because, uh, you know, our cultures are founded on on respect. Um and so a lot of work has been done in the space before. It even arrives around creating respectful space to enable Pacific people to have open and frank conversations about sex, sexuality [00:03:30] and gender diversity. Um, homosexual law reform, as many of you know, uh, created the social conditions that have allowed national sexual health organisations including, uh, the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, um, to respond to the transmission of STIs HIV and AIDS amongst gay and bisexual men living in a, um As a result, NZAF sits as part of the history, Um, and embedded [00:04:00] in the fabric of some of the earliest pioneering movements to, um, allow people to start approaching our health and our well being. Um, and the idea that or the notion that, um, we weren't illegal citizens or, uh, that we had rights as, um, humans and other, Um uh, this may sound a little bit cynical, but despite creating conditions that have allowed [00:04:30] people, uh, the institution to develop inclusive social policy, it will be three decades before we see the emergence of adequate rainbow Pacifica services, um, services that have kind of operated over time directly in response to the lack of capacity capability, comprehension, uh, competency, um, and, um, just basic education within the mainstream health, social [00:05:00] welfare and educational institution. Um, yeah. Many of these, uh, institutional frameworks still operate today and without, uh, necessary support that is required to deal with the growing gender diversity among specific communities, especially in New Zealand. Um, And for the greater part of 2005, these, uh, 2015, these services still remain vastly underfunded, [00:05:30] unrecognised and in some instances invisible in New Zealand. Um, however, the, um the landscape isn't without its pioneers and leaders who have advocated for radical social change. Um, and have done this for as long as some of these gaps have existed, I'd just like to acknowledge some of those people. Uh, the late mama Edward Carli, Uh, C Samoa. Felicia Brown, Acton be And, [00:06:00] um, in my mind, the most effective tool to, uh, combating social inequalities has been reminding people that we're still here, and we still exist. And we didn't really go anywhere. Uh, but we've been here since the beginning of, um and so visibility matters. Uh, I think it was brought up this morning. Um, that young people need to be able to see themselves reflected [00:06:30] in the society that they live in. Um, and I tend to agree with that. And so in 2013, the LGBT, um, and LGBT advocate Felicia Brown Acton initiated the Pacifica float project, uh, in partnership with East Family Services, our IC Village Collective and the Auckland Pride Committee and the Pacific People's Project. Um, it saw the largest gathering in Auckland of our Pacific community, [00:07:00] and it saw the largest, uh, mobilisation of, uh, pacific majority of of, um, queer and diverse identified people. Um, and it created a national awareness. Um, but amongst the other things that are created in that national awareness is, um, uh, a diverse identity that's also part of the mainstream one. [00:07:30] Um, our community has been historically framed, uh, from a sexual health perspective, a mental health perspective and our communities is only today are starting to redefine what they look like and who they are and reinterpret, uh, the space and, um, who they are as a community group. And for me, um, love life fun plays a pivotal role. Um, in reframing [00:08:00] the rainbow Pacifica narrative. Um, a lot of what's happening now currently in the spaces around ownership and reclaiming some of that, uh, narrative that has come before us, but acknowledging the deep and rich history that is part of that genealogy as well and part of our, um and so, uh, love life follow delivers culturally relevant support to a new generation, uh, faced with new everyday challenges, and it [00:08:30] helps to connect them with their history and locate them geographically, culturally and socially. Um, to acknowledge that they exist and that they're part of, um, our family and our extended family. Um, so in 2013, it was recognised, um, from recommendations from the community who attended the previous, like fun that they needed to have an active role in putting this event together. [00:09:00] That brings, uh, basically all the gender diverse and sexually diverse communities from the country together, Um, every two years. And so, uh, the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, um, approached people from the community and asked them to, uh, be part of a organising committee. So I'm just gonna pass it on to some who probably gonna speak a lot more clearly about that. Yeah, Man up. Just check if everyone's still awake [00:09:30] and with us. OK, so just like mentioned in 2013, um, based on comprehensive feedback from past participants of of the Love Life, uh, the New Zealand AIDS Foundation commissioned the organising committee. And so this organising committee was, um, basically comprised of various members of the Pacific Rainbow Community, and they're all, um so they were kind of engaged with the planning and also the execution, um, of the in that year So in 2013, [00:10:00] the organising committee was Cindy of Samoa, who most of you already know, Um, who is part of a a school inspired youth group? Uh, Kelton, Queens. Tamara Anderson, Uh, from Family Services and an is a Pacific artist. So under in 2015, under the guidance of its new community engagement coordinator, Pacific the Fabulous Mr Standing here, the NZNZAF continued and expanded [00:10:30] this concept of broader engagement, um, in the organisation and execution of the love life. Um, so this is really an attempt to kind of garner a greater interest from a diverse cross section of the of the community. And in recognition of the fact that there are many group, uh, many diverse groupings and many different sections within the particular Pacific Rainbow community, we often get lumped all together. So here are the faces of the 2015 committee. Um, so just from left to right. And I want to point out, um, who [00:11:00] they are and where they're from because it says quite a lot about, um, the direction of NAF and also about the love life funnel moving forward. Um, so from top to left. We have to To who's introduced himself? Um, Josephine. Samuel, Um, in the red, uh, who runs an organisation called which mentors young, uh, Pacific Rainbow young youth. She's also a nurse. Um, who's, uh, the money man who works in Westpac? Um, [00:11:30] and he's also part of the swag. Art, Art, Art, art Collective. Uh, Jonathan, who's here with us today as well. Hi, Jo. Uh, who works with the Mental Health Foundation, Auckland Sexual health. Uh, Sonia ta ta from Auckland, sexual health as well, Who is a graduate of the Pacific Island Performing Arts Institute in Auckland and is also a board member of the of the youth group. Next is [00:12:00] some, um, from based here in Wellington, uh, from Box Oceania and also part of the Wellington City Pacific Advisory Group. Darren, who's a performing artist, Julie, who is a law society professional in the town community me, um, and also, uh, uh from the East Family Services, who's also the co-chair of Rainbow Youth and the chair of, um, the youth group we talked [00:12:30] about earlier. So the committee, as you can see, um, comprised of a diverse makeup of gender, cultural and professional identities, um, in an attempt to to really mirror the broader diversity within society and the reality within our within our community. So So the committee drew upon the strengths of this diversity according to diverse knowledge, experiences, ideas and philosophies and practises and the developing and execution of the love life on all six programme, which Tony [00:13:00] will talk about soon. Um, the 2015 love life objectives, uh, were really basic things. Uh, essentially, we wanted to, uh, bring people together and facilitate a space where people could reconnect. Uh, one of the things that our committee identified quite pretty early in the preparation for love life, uh, was that there were some intergenerational gaps, um, amongst our community. And as [00:13:30] a result, some of the information and the knowledge from the pastor was, uh, hitting a bit of a and then some of, uh, the living conditions or the living realities for young people were also, um, lost in translation. Um, so one of the core things that we try to offer in terms of, uh uh, a really clear objective around facilitating love, like was to, um, clear that pathway for people. So that those connections could be made and people could start talking to each other. [00:14:00] Um, it's really understated, but I think, um, the success of love life has, uh, been about those, uh, interpersonal connections, Um, and how they've been maintained over time. And of course, things shift all the time, and priorities shift, and people relocate. And, um, so the landscape is is always changing and evolving. Um, and I think, uh, NZAF has been invested in the love life for not long [00:14:30] enough to take an active responsibility for maintaining those relationships and those connections, even if it's just by developing a digital resource where people can clock in and check in with their community and their peers. Um, so that again became an outcome from one of the objectives that we set ourselves as a as a committee. And so, for three days, um, uh, we, uh, shared space. Um, at [00:15:00] which is based at the MIT campus, Um, in city in Auckland. Um, and we had a really dynamic programme that, uh, took a holistic approach to well-being. Um, so historically, the NZAF has framed the love life followers. Uh, HIV prevention, uh, workshop or, um a way of promoting, say, sex essentially, and condoms, uh, which is great. And it served its function in the past. But moving into the future, [00:15:30] we realised that we were more than just our sexual behaviour and our choices and our sexual partners. And so that became again one of the things that fit into the conversation around looking at Pacific well-being, looking at Pacific connections. And what is it that we want to talk about? And because we had such a diverse committee and there were a lot of ideas that were put on the table and we tried to, um, honour all of them by giving them space adequate space to, um, explore. [00:16:00] Um, and some of those things were education, employment, sexual health, general health, um, relationships, uh, and things like that. So yeah, yeah, the the key to kind of holding that all together was was more than just, uh, having a committee that organised things and decided, uh, what was gonna happen. But it was about creating meaningful, uh, community partnership with people on the ground, everyday people [00:16:30] who are just living their lives. And then they find out oh is happening. Um, by getting input from those people so that it drives, uh, love life as a vehicle that they can then own themselves as a community. I'm gonna pass it up. So to balance what appeared on the surface level a very young and green, very young as you can tell. And Green organising committee, the Love Life Final Six committee agreed by consensus that direction and input was still needed from our more experienced elders [00:17:00] or our And they hate us calling them that. But that's what they were to us. So this this we called the cultural custodians and their role was to help steal the of the organising committee. So to provide critical feedback, guidance and leadership, um, in terms of the work that we're doing, we were doing so this is important to the organising committee committee and acknowledging the different pockets of our peoples, um, within the vast community and the desire really not to discount, um, anyone based on their age or any other sort of stereotype. [00:17:30] So I acknowledge them here today, um, up on the left, you can see, um Well, um, who's with village collector from a Who's the Auckland Pride curator? Um, next to them. Louisa Wall Labour MP for who you saw this morning. Uh, Taiko the com, uh, who is a community community leader in the Cook Islands? Um, community. And here in, um, in New Zealand. Josephine, [00:18:00] um, a health professional, uh, also a health professional, but a community elder at the University of Canterbury, Um, and also Cindy of Samoa. So this fabulous group of cultural custodians were invited to a programme briefing meeting, um, prior to the actual funeral, Um, where where, As an organising committee presented our our ideas around our particular aspirations and desires for the outlook of the programme. [00:18:30] So members of the cultural custodians gave positive and constructive feedback and asked us to consider other areas in in depth that we perhaps did not look at properly at the time. Um and also most of the cultural custodians were present for the duration of the love life funnel um, providing daily advice and reas reassurances, and that the Committee that the organising committee and the programme was on track. So this is a great example of, um, intergenerational solidarity and successful [00:19:00] partnerships between, um, members within the same community community, but with very different lived experiences and and we hope to continue progressing. Um that in future for all So continuing on this theme of collectively navigating in partnerships um partnerships were also established with the following organisations and resulted in the delivery of programme elements, support [00:19:30] and additional resources for the love life funnel You can see there um Village Collective Rainbow Youth East Family Service Auckland Sexual Health The University of Auckland Contemporary Pacific Arts Trust Oceania interrupted the school of her in a love your condom and part of my [00:20:00] pronunciation. So there is a good mix here a social community, health and education organisation And um, this really provided a great opportunity to pull uh, the resources of these organisations, um, into the formal for our for our participants. So all of these organisations have a great interest, I hope, and are involved with the Pacific Rainbow Community on different levels Um, representing a multi prong or cross organisational collaboration, um deliver delivering sport services [00:20:30] and information for rainbow Pacific and Pacific communities in general. So, um, working in partnership with with these organisations also helped to put us on the map. Well, the love life on on the map or on their radar, Um, as a as a vehicle, as one voice for the Pacific Rainbow community. Um, So, together with the New Zealand AIDS Foundation and the Love Life 16 committee, um, we were able to achieve some remarkable goals in in in this area, particularly about, uh, partnerships [00:21:00] and greater engagements. Um, but this is only the start. We have to continue doing that more. It was really challenging to to then take all this input from our community and then, uh, synthesise that into a cohesive programme where we felt our community got the best or the most value in terms of attending the love life. And so, um, this year we decided to run the over three days because traditionally, we have [00:21:30] our on the Friday and it only runs for Saturday and Sunday. But we decided to add an extra day in there so we could offer, um, customised workshops that tailored to the, um, to the things that people actually asked us to deliver. Um and so the fight. We, um we had our opening ceremony, Um uh, on the Thursday and then on Friday, we went into an intense [00:22:00] um programme of back to back workshops, and we wanted to offer people variety so that they had more than just one space to go to because, um, with the theme of navigation, we wanted people to decide for themselves which pathways were appropriate for them. So we kind of saw our role as just facilitating the options for people. Um, and I think we did that quite succinctly. Um, of course, there was some really good feedback from most of the community about how we can refine this in the future. [00:22:30] Um, and it's weird because it sounds like an oxymoron. But we had lot to refine, but then expand as well. And I guess, um, so much learning has come from this process. And we would just like to, um, honour some of the, um, exchange that's happened between the organisation, the committee, um, our cultural advisory and the community. Yeah. So one of the criticisms about these, um, wonderful Pacific [00:23:00] funnels is that you come together once in a blue moon. You have a great time, you build some wonderful networks and wonderful friendships. And then after that, nothing happens. Um, and it's not to say that this is just been with this particular organisation We're talking about, um, events in general. So, um, and wanting to keep, um, the momentum alive of love life funnel. So, keeping those partnerships and those networks and those wonderful relationships that were formed, um, keeping them alive in between [00:23:30] keeping in mind that this takes place every two years. Yeah, Um, And to ensure that we continue the work and to continue to push the outcomes that came out of the fun. Um, the love life Fun six committee proposed to its members at the 2015 conference. The idea of forming love life funnel trust. And so this was passed unanimously at the A GM. So the love life funnel trust. I'll just go through a couple of its, um, principles. Um, [00:24:00] sorry purpose. Um, so, in terms of the purpose we looked at bringing together the Rainbow Pacific, um, peoples and communities of New Zealand and the Pacific, um, providing opportunities to connect intersectional communities inside and outside of Rainbow Pacific communities. Um, provide opportunities to access traditional and contemporary pacific knowledge and skills and promote the views, health and well-being of rainbow Pacific peoples and communities and to provide other support and [00:24:30] assistance consistent with the above referred charitable purposes. So this would then open up the FAA to wider opportunities for funding and the opportunity for this funding to action some of the networking events in between various fun. So the move to a charitable trust where funds could can be accessed was a key concern for our international participants from across the region. Who asked the committee to consider, uh, this is a priority allowing our brothers and sisters from across the ocean who may not be tied to specific [00:25:00] organisations and thus not have access to, uh, funding to attend attend these sessions. So we took that pretty seriously. Um, when we thought about the creation of this of this trust, Um, there was also the desire of the organising committee to committee committee. That's not a word, um, to create a vehicle which would house the history of love life, um, so creating opportunities for the various stories and and journeys, um, to be captured and stored, um, in various, uh, formats. And so [00:25:30] and we recognise that this is particularly important for for the future of and for its ongoing development and sustenance, providing a tangible resource, which all of our members, um, of the Pacific community or organisation based code access and no rewrote that, um, it couldn't be presumed that all Pacific LGBT or Rainbow people are navigating in the same direction. And this became really apparent when we were all sharing space and occupying [00:26:00] the one space together, um, that people had different aspirations, um, to be different things in life. Um, and to, uh, follow different passions. And so, um, this love life was a a huge learning experience. I've been in, uh, this role at the NZF for, um, in June. It will be two years now. Uh, and it was the first time that I've ever, uh, come into the space. [00:26:30] And I'm relatively new to working in the rainbow Pacifica space despite identifying as a openly gay male. Um, and so I think what we set out to do was really ambitious, and it took a lot of courage. And I'm really proud of the effort that the team and the community put together, and it's not necessarily over now. So, uh, I, I see this as like a continuation into the future and there's still a lot of work to do. Um [00:27:00] and so I guess I wanted to kind of, like, just pitch to the audience that you can be part of those outcomes and be part of that future. Um, So if you know of any, uh, indigenous Oceania people, uh, who would like to get involved? We've got our business cards here, and we also have some collateral and some information that you can take away with you after this workshop. Um, this is my [00:27:30] last slide and my personal favourite photo from the Love Life. Um, I really enjoy this photo because I don't get to see this quite often. Uh, in my personal life, um, like a huge gathering of LGBT rainbow Pacifica people, um, moving together as a community. Um, I think historically, we've kind of been siloed off. And I was just talking to someone recently about how [00:28:00] the way Auckland as a city is built and its geography and the way that it lays out communities has a lot to do with why we're so, um, isolated sometimes from one another. Um, so I think it's interesting that we, um I think we as, um the committee and the the people who are part of this project take an active responsibility. But we also, um, share that responsibility with our people as well to, [00:28:30] um, to make sure that we we can come together and we can share space, and we can move as a group of people and as a community. Um, so that's our presentation, I guess. And, um, I'm just gonna open it up to the floor if anyone has any questions. Hi. [00:29:00] What were some of the the dreams and aspirations that came out of this year's or or dreams? Maybe that you have going forward from from your, um from the feedback from this year last year. Sorry, Uh, there's this idea of growing the cultural landscape. Um uh, collective social mobility is one thing. We talk about being disenfranchised and [00:29:30] and being resourceful and resilient. And these are things that our community have have built into their personalities. It's real disheartening, because when you talk to people, they they talk like they're survivors of something. And I'm always constantly questioning What is the something, um, and the something is the rest of the world. Um, So what's good? Uh, I, I guess in terms of some of those dreams and aspirations that the community has was about sharing resourcefulness [00:30:00] and sharing the load so that the, um that survivor defensiveness. Um, we no longer internalise. And it doesn't become this historical trauma that we carry with us for the rest of our lives. Um, because, yeah, we're kind of over it. And another thing, uh, that people talked about was, um, talking to the rest of our community because we've been talking to ourselves for the longest time. And so, uh, one of the [00:30:30] things that our community want to see more of is being able to find words to be able to talk to their own communities, have these discussions at church, uh, with their ministers and talk with their families. And, um and what does a wider Pacific experience have to offer us as members of that experience as well? So, yeah, those were the the dreams and aspirations, and it seems real simple that we would be automatically, uh, privilege to [00:31:00] those experiences culturally. But we're not sometimes and that's gosh, I'd be interested to hear how you managed to embrace the wider sector of the Pacific community. Did you do it through the various Pacific Church groups or through the community organisations? You know? Um, yeah, I'd be interested to know how. How? How you actually were all embracing. I Yeah, I think basically, for, um well, you saw [00:31:30] how big the committee was. It's probably too big. Um and they're all part of different organisations, and it really helped, um in terms of them being able to go out and, um, talk to them about the love life and then also talk Talk to them about what we wanted to achieve and all all of them have a keen interest in terms of, you know, working with this particular group of high risk youth. Um, so, yeah, I think word of mouth basically the old coconut. It's such a large committee that they were able to touch the various sectors of the community. And [00:32:00] I also think through his work as the community outreach, um, coordinator for the Pacific, um, and the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. I mean, they're doing a lot more work with different organisations and, um, on similar kind of events and issues, and so that's helped a lot as well but also because I think, um, love life fun is a brand. It's a known brand. That's the sixth iteration of love, The Love Life Gathering. And at that time when you had it last year, there'd already been six version five versions [00:32:30] of it earlier. And the community know about about which that and that that definitely helps. But the question that I have now that you've got the trust and I saw that, um, there is some first of all I want to congratulate the love life for, um on on this amazing event you continued it on from the earlier work of, you know, the the other people like C I acting amazing, you know, advocates for for LGBTI in in New Zealand. [00:33:00] One of the things that that was always a struggle in the earlier versions of it was specific participation. And of course, you know, New Zealand Aid Foundation isn't the the big bucket of funds that it used to be, So they're trying their best to try and accommodate that, and it's it's it's It's very comforting for me to hear that that's one of the The key cornerstones of the new trust is the involvement of of of of, you know, your your your neighbours in the Pacific and [00:33:30] the I. I always believe that if an organisation is is is built from the ground up in the country where it resides, that the focus should be on the Pacific Pacific people, you know, or the Pacific LGBTI communities within that country, that's your first and foremost priorities addressing those needs. And it will be interesting to see, you know, the penetration of love life on down [00:34:00] in the South Island, you know, down in South London and in Otago and Dunedin, like where some Pacific communities are involved there with the with the with the engagement of and and you know that that's really, really important. Um, then you can whatever funds you have left, you can try and get some participation across. The only thing that I think and and this is an advice that I give to you guys, is the space is starting to become very crowded, you know, in in terms of pacific engagement and participation, [00:34:30] you have PSDN now out there actively sourcing issues for the Pacific. You have or up there, you know you're starting to coalesce these organisations, um rather than kind of, like have this ideology of let's build and kind of, like, grab everybody and put everybody in our basket. Let's work together to kind of, like, try and and form, you know, um, partnerships so that they can share information because I see love life. [00:35:00] The love life I believe in is the love life that catches the Pacific migrants that migrate to New Zealand. And then you pick them up and kind of like, say, what support services can we offer them through employment through, you know, hormones through medical, through health. You know, that's, uh I mean, that's my opinion, but I honestly believe in your work. Fantastic. Um, congratulations on on an amazing event last year. I'm sorry I couldn't make it, but, um, yeah, so I just wanted to share [00:35:30] that. Thank you. I really want to acknowledge your and, um and and it's definitely a conversation that we had at love. Life fun. Um, I just want to acknowledge also that this was the first. And, um, and I am really looking forward to, uh, facilitating or being a conduit to enable more of these discussions. Um because I think that's where it starts. But that is fantastic [00:36:00] advice, and we definitely take Can I just say that she be doing? Yeah, Yeah, we We had those discussions, and we we said, you know, um, the the trustees currently sit at six trustees. Um, and that's our minimum number for for the thing, because we we didn't want to take control. Um, and we don't want to be the authority on, um, you know, in New Zealand, um, we want to provide that space and open those spaces. So it's [00:36:30] good to hear that there's people from our community saying, um, don't tell us how to be give us opportunities. Um, because that's the That's the tack we're taking with it is that it's to be, you know, whether it's, um, organising the next formal in in partnership with organisations or whether it's, um, a group down in Christchurch who want to have a, um, social gathering. And they just need to be able to access some funds to put some transport [00:37:00] stuff together. Um, that's the role of the or a role that, um, the former trust can play. Yeah, and it's still taking shape. Um, it's still really early in the process. And, um yeah, without making it sound too haphazard, as if we we don't know what we're doing. But we're kind of learning as we go. Um, and we're taking on board all the advice from our community and all the advice from people who have all that experience. [00:37:30] And, um, yeah, I think the what enabled the US to deliver this, uh, last year's love life fun. Was that really rich history of the the branding love life and the, um Because last year was the 10 year anniversary, and I was, um, yeah, I think we were kind of riding the wave of that history. Um, and we really wanted to take it in a new direction. And, um, again, this this vision isn't set in concrete. [00:38:00] And it's, um, just like the ocean. It's Florida. And it's, um yeah, taking on currents from all over the place. So, uh, please contribute. Um, go. Go here first. Yeah, um, I just Yeah, I just really want to, um, acknowledge just how much money has been going into this. It's not so much a question as a comment. I think that, um particularly down here in Wellington. A lot of [00:38:30] our Pacific young people, um, are isolated, particularly in the city. Um, I think in places such as, there's a little bit more Pacific people, but it's not. There's nothing that I've noticed that is happening like this in the same way. And a lot of people down here seek a lot of inspiration and strength from the work that you're doing. So I guess Just know what follow on effects in the sees that you're planting all across the all across the country really are and what that can grow and look like. And we hope that we can [00:39:00] where there are parts to grow together, we can do that. So So thank you for that really important gift. Um, last week we had a young girl who, um yeah, it would have been in our rainbow community, um, complete suicide. And so to me, it's been a really relevant couple of weeks, in particular, with all of this stuff happening with pride and and actually what it means when the main group of young people that I know who have passed away at all Maori and Pacifica and how [00:39:30] hard it is to be doing this work within a Western framework. A lot of the models that we've been taught to use to explain our lives and our identities, uh uh, have come from a European framework, and how important and valuable and appreciated is when there are people such as yourselves willing to forge past forward that we can start to name and conceptualise of ourselves. And it's part of, and I know that that's part of your and it's not hasn't just started here, and there's a long line of that. But but [00:40:00] yeah, to us down and is really important. So thank you, Thank you and and totally support all of the work that you've been doing. It's kind of weird seeing an old picture of yourself when you used to have here. Well, a little bit of hair and, um, I was just, you know, that that tension that's always there because it originally came through Aid Foundation money. So it come and it's the same with the funding that exists in the Pacific as well. [00:40:30] So because that's the only source of funding and it has constraints. And so it's for those at high risk of HIV, which in the Pacific still got that focus on trans women and MN and in a it seems to be predominantly MS M because there aren't the same high rates amongst, um, and others here. And you, you're for all of your community. [00:41:00] And how how, then can you embrace, you know, and, you know, lesbians and trans masculine people, because there's no one funding that work. So I was just wondering if you've found a way to to try and be as broad as possible when the funding isn't that broad. Not at the moment. No, um, but it's definitely something that I mean, I feel like we're always, uh, in in discussion. [00:41:30] You know, um, I feel like, um, these are definitely things that we are being considered by everyone involved, but, um, we're still trying to figure out where to from here what that looks like. And in a real practical sense. Um, and because essentially the trust, um, doesn't want we we don't necessarily view the trust as a, um, operational one, but more or less um, [00:42:00] yeah, like a a portal, um, to again just connect with one another so that we can collectively come up with an approach. So, I, I can't personally answer that question. But it's definitely on the list. The really long list of things that are getting, uh, worked through at the moment. Um, I guess it's well, I can speak to at this point, but, um, yeah, at some point, it's [00:42:30] we're gonna start prioritising things and one of the other things that are around that as well, um, is that it's enshrined in the trustee that we've submitted to. We're still waiting to hear back from charity services six months later. Um, but one of the things that's enshrined in that is that, um it's for the whole community, regardless of your identity, not to homogenise us, but to, um, provide that space to have our cultural lens [00:43:00] put on to some of that, um, social and gender diversity stuff. Um, And I guess in addition to that, um, in terms of funding, um, that's one of the roles of the trust is that the trust can, um, apply for funding. Um, that goes outside of, um, the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. But at the same time, um has a commitment to, um to the foundation um because that's that's part of our [00:43:30] genealogy. As a as a as a, um for yeah. I mean, we're currently drafting an MOU between, uh, the love life for charitable trust and the NZAF. Um, board. Sorry, my brain. Um, uh, because we, uh we agreed it was really important to even though you mentioned like, um, a lot of the funding is tied up in, uh, a HIV [00:44:00] money. And, um, I think, uh, we wanna be able to, uh, ensure that the some of the prevention mandates are still, um, protected, um, and love life and considered And that, um, the the partnership is is there and that there's a clear understanding that doesn't necessarily, um it can also carry those responsibilities. But it doesn't have to use that as the overarching, uh, thing that holds [00:44:30] the trust together, Um, because it needs to grow into something new. Just a question. Uh, do you, with your professional role at the University of Auckland and were you able to the the the work that you did with the love life was that were you able to do that as part of your professional role on behalf of the University of Auckland. Or was it purely of a voluntary nature, or was it more or less of a monetary? Um, you know, [00:45:00] a donation from the university, you know, towards the love life. I just be interested in the role that the university had with really promoting this great scheme. You ask a good question. Um, so in terms of in terms of the university, the University of Auckland represents the rainbow community as a as an equity group. Um, basically, that, um, requires, um, support and and and creating enabling environments. And so [00:45:30] I guess, in a sense, me participating was, you know, uh, and I I I'm a member of that rainbow committee. Uh, the committee, um was the university investing in this particular event? I mean, we've we've funded a couple of objects, I think, um, during the funnel. So, yeah, it was kind of, um, and works pretty supportive Of what? What what most of us do. Um, in communities, especially with Pacific Pacific communities. Yeah. Did I answer your question? Sorry. Hey. Yeah, [00:46:00] I did. Uh, I just gonna say, um, congratulations on a wild presentation as, um, as a longtime supporter of a life, love And I've been to every one of those, uh, today I was really saddened to hear about the death of a young Samoa, Um, LGBT person. And I just want to ask you whether what other measures [00:46:30] or or or steps that, uh, the trust plan to do about reaching out to our young people, Uh, who faces the challenge and II. I do believe that the challenges come from the community from their their families, the pressures of their families. I do believe we should should have some interventions and especially grooming young leaders to take on the roles of reaching out to our community in order to to [00:47:00] to put the case for that, that there is a need that our kids are slipping through the cracks because we're not addressing that situation. So I just ask you what you plan to do. It's a really good question. Um, we definitely invested in our partnership with who, uh, we've been working with for the last two years on the development of a suicide prevention resource that's tailored for Pacific young people. Um, but beyond that, we haven't as a I guess [00:47:30] trust or a board sat down specifically, it's It's definitely another thing that's on the list. Um, but, um, myself and my role at the NZAF um, have been working with that organisation to help develop a a suicide prevention resource. And then we also facilitated the space for them to to come and present at love life to be able to have that really difficult and heart wrenching discussion as well. [00:48:00] Um, I think that one of the things that we we can do as a trust at this point in time is just facilitate that space for intervention or support. Um, I'm not sure what intervention would look like, and it has to be a group effort, I think, from all corners of our community and not just, um, love life. Um, but I think we can start there with, uh, creating safe [00:48:30] spaces to talk about it where people can share. Um, and we're definitely part of that, and we're definitely invested in that at the moment. I hope that was helpful. But one thing I just want to say, like, is someone who lives in. And I was only there for a little bit of pride festival that was on, but you know, Pacific performers just shone through that and also, you know, even before that, you know, other events that have happened [00:49:00] during the year. I didn't get to see everything, but, you know, if you were stunning those voices of all of those people who've come through the Avondale Pacific, um, performing arts out there at the and it's just I just wish that those stories could cause the night I was there, there was there was Pacific people, some from our community. But the wider Pacific community was there, and the community was very part of the queer Trans [00:49:30] community was very small in the audience. I think it was a bit better some of the other nights, but those stories were so powerful, so being able to share those with more parts of our community would be wonderful. And they were really hard, like one of them was about suicide. And but they were also about resilience. And, you know, I had we were, you know, I cried and I laughed, and I just was on such a high. And I think that was, you know, for anyone I heard so, you know, [00:50:00] thank you to your communities for all of that that you give. And it enriches our community up in Auckland. And I know that, you know, that's a part of your life, too. As an artist. I think it's so intrinsic, though, to Pacific people in general, Um, we come from like oral traditions. And so the story and narrative is so prevalent and so relevant to our community that, um it's like bleeding in public. [00:50:30] Um, you can see it like on the surface, we might seem like really happy. And, um, I don't know cheerful people, but I feel like we pick our moments to be vulnerable. And, um, what it is great to see is is the volume and the quality of, uh has just been raised in the last couple of years. But we come from that tradition. I remember as a kid watching videos of CIA, Samoa, like travel around Germany and stuff and like, [00:51:00] uh, travel the world and do these incredible cabaret shows. And, um so, um, I don't think yeah, I. I really acknowledge what you say And II I hope, as an artist, because I have a personal investment just on the creative side that we can, um, start to digitise some of that and, um yeah, and hold our history. Um, because so many new people are coming into the fold and becoming more visible. Um, and there has to be a way that we can show that [00:51:30] that value and cultural richness, Um, and so that it doesn't kind of dissipate, you know, Um, but yeah. Uh, Auckland. And it's great to see uh, a Pacific presence in the Auckland Pride Festival that is meaningful and not token and not, um, uh, Polynesians and Hollis skits and singing and dancing, but real engagement and opportunities to talk and speak and share stories. So, yeah. Do you, um [00:52:00] yeah, Thank you as well. I just like to propose a bit of thanks on behalf of the organising committee. That was a very interesting presentation and just the way you sort of really were all embracing it. But different sectors of the community, I thought was very impressive. Especially with that Zumba and as a employee of the New Zealand Ace Foundation, um, you know, with the way you have broadened, you'll work in a very positive direction [00:52:30] in terms of just promoting the safe sex message. You know, um, we certainly don't have anything quite like this down here in the greater wanting an area where different things happening. So, really congratulations to you both on your presentation and the work that you're doing. So this is just a gift on behalf of the, um the, um the organising committee. I know. Yeah. Good. Many thanks. [00:53:00] Thank you very much.

IRN: 1009
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089706
TITLE: William Spurlin
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VOICES: Dave Moskovitz; William Spurlin
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1910s; 1920s; 1930s; 1940s; 2010s; Adolf Hitler; Adrienne Rich; Alfred Kinsey; Aotearoa New Zealand; Berlin; Brunel University London; Christchurch; Claudia Schoppmann; Dave Moskovitz; Days of Masquerade: Life Stories of Lesbian Women During the Third Reich (book); Erica Rothschild; Ernst Rohm; Germany; Heinrich Himmler; Holocaust Centre of New Zealand; Indonesia; Institut fur Sexualwissenschaft; Judaism; Kinsey Reports; Kinsey scale (heterosexual - homosexual rating scale); Lost Intimacies: Rethinking Homosexuality under National Socialism (book); Magnus Hirschfeld; National Socialism; Nazi Germany; Nazism; New German Women's Movement; Paragraph 175; Raye Freedman Trust; Rule Foundation; The Holocaust; Third Reich; Wellington; Wellington Jewish Community Centre; Wellington Pride Festival (2016); William Spurlin; World War 2; abortion; academia; academics; anal sex; anti-Semitism; bars; bigotry; black triangle (Nazi Germany); church; concentration camp; diversity; eugenics; fantasy; fascism; femininity; gay; gender politics; heteronormativity; homocaust; homoerotic; homosexual; homosocial; hypermasculinity; identity; intersectionality; kissing; language; latent homosexuality; lesbian; masculinity; masturbation; oppression; other; othering; pedophilia; persecution; pink triangle (symbol); pornography; propaganda; queer; racial politics; racism; raids; rentboy; sex work; sexual dissidents; sexual orientation; sexuality; sterilisation
DATE: 6 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Holocaust Centre of New Zealand, 80 Webb Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from Prof. William Spurlin's talk: What we know from the historical record - the persecution of lesbians and gay men under the Third Reich.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I've been asked, uh, to, uh, introduce, uh, Professor Spreen this evening. My name is Dave Moskovitz. I'm a past president of, uh, Temple Sinai. The Wellington Progressive Jewish congregation. Uh, and I am currently the, uh, Jewish co-chair of the Wellington Abrahamic Council, which used to be called until last year. The Wellington Council of Christians and Jews Until we formally invited the Muslims, uh, to join us. But like many other Ashkenazi Jews, uh, I lost a large portion of my family [00:00:30] in the Holocaust. But just under half of my great uncles and aunties were murdered, uh, by, uh, by Hitler and the Nazis, uh, during, uh, during the period of the Third Reich, which we'll be discussing tonight. And, of course, it's very important to remember that the Jews were not the only people who were affected by this. There were a large number of others who were also affected by the same evil forces. And so it's very important for us to remember, [00:01:00] uh, those, uh, others, uh, as we work to, uh, eliminate all forms of racism and bigotry in our society and work to, uh, celebrate diversity. We Jews are very familiar with being the other. And there are many others in New Zealand society and around the world who also have similar experiences. So it's very important that we have a greater understanding of this diversity and of our shared history with others who are not so fortunate [00:01:30] during the period that we'll be discussing tonight. So, um, we're very privileged tonight to have with us, uh, Professor William Spurlin, who is the director of teaching and a professor of English at BRUNE uh University in London, situated at the nexus of queer studies, postcolonial studies and critical and cultural theory. Uh, Professor Sperling's interdisciplinary research encompasses the analysis of a broad range of literary, cultural and critical texts [00:02:00] spanning from the, uh, uh, end of the 19th and 20 century through the 20th and 21st centuries. His research areas, uh, include queer studies, uh, gender studies, postcolonial studies, critical theory, African and African American studies, uh, comparative literature, translation, diaspora migration and border and border studies and 20th century modernist and post modern modernist literature and cultures. So [00:02:30] he is a very has a very, very broad area and functions, uh, at the intersection of all of these things which I think is a particularly fascinating, uh, fascinating area. His publications include papers on Queer Identity and racial alienation, Uh, the politics of race and sexuality and James Baldwin in the new South Africa. Uh, resisting heter enormity and resisting recolonization effective bonds between indigenous women in Southern Africa and the differences of postcolonial [00:03:00] feminist history. Um, as well as, uh uh, having published papers in reclaiming the Heartland, lesbian and gay voices from the Midwest. Comparatively queer in interrogating identities across time and cultures and a couple of monographs as well. Uh, including imperialism within the margins Queer representation, the politics of culture in southern Africa. And this one here lost intimacies rethinking homosexuality, uh, under national socialism. [00:03:30] Um, So, uh, I think it is, uh, specifically in relation to this book. Uh, that, uh, professor spin will be talking tonight. And, um, of course, you can obtain this book from amazon dot com and, uh, many other online sources, And I hope many of you will be motivated to do so, uh, later on this evening and in the coming days. And I'm hoping that, um, you will be so motivated by this lecture that you'll also have two other opportunities to see Professor Spurlin in Wellington. Uh, later on this week, [00:04:00] Uh, on Tuesday, the eighth, uh, at noon, um, he will be giving a public lecture on the, uh, post Holocaust continued persecutions of sexual dissidents since World War two. And that will be at Saint Andrews on the terrace and also on Thursday, uh, at 5:30 p. m. he'll be giving a public lecture on what we can learn from the persecution of lesbians and gay people during the Holocaust. And how does this impact positively and or negatively on L GP T i communities today? And that will be at the Otago School of Medicine, [00:04:30] uh, down at the, uh, down at Wellington Hospital. So, um, I'd like you to give a warm welcome now to Professor Spurlin as he tells us about persecution of gay men and lesbians under the third. Well, good afternoon, everyone. Can you hear me? Ok, um thank you for that very lovely introduction. It's It's such an honour to be here, [00:05:00] Um, and to feel so welcome here at the Holocaust Centre of New Zealand, I usually, because of the nature of my work, do not usually get these very warm welcomes for obvious reasons. But it's very nice that I feel, you know, to feel so welcome and to be asked to, uh, come and speak to you about my work. Um, thank you so much for coming. It's a wonderful crowd. Beautiful Sunday afternoon. I would much rather be outside than than listening to me, but, um, I do appreciate that, uh, everyone is, [00:05:30] um, that everyone has Come. Um, I'd like to give a very special thank you to the Holocaust centre of New Zealand, its director and all of its staff, and also to the Ray Friedman Trust and the Rule Foundation. Um, all of whom have, you know, sort of funded my trip here, So I'm very grateful for, uh, for that. It's as it's also my first trip to, um, to New Zealand. Um, my topic is what we know from the historical record, The persecution. I think I forgot the word. The in my subtitle, The persecution of Gay Men and lesbians [00:06:00] under the Third Reich. Um, and this research is sort of ongoing. I mean, the book that was mentioned, um, was published in 2009, and I continue to do ongoing research and dabble in it, Uh, some more Just to to bring up to date the work that's been done, you know, since the book came out in 2000 and, um, in 2009. So I'm going to be very formal and go through my talk just because I want to, um, finish in time so that there's a lot of time for [00:06:30] questions afterwards. OK, um, now a question that has not been asked until very recently in Holocaust scholarship concerns the place of sexual dissidents in our understandings of the historical and the ongoing significance of the Holocaust published testimonies that appeared in the 19 seventies, the 19 eighties and the 19 nineties. Here are some examples by gay men and lesbians who were persecuted under national socialism were very valuable, [00:07:00] as so as historical documents that actually demonstrated the out the per the actualities of persecutions. But this work has remained marginalised in mainstream Holocaust scholarship. So in those days in the seventies, um, the men with the Pink Triangle was published in 1972. Um, the middle book is the, um of masquerade by Claudia Shoman. Uh, which is one of the first to collect testimonies by lesbians who were persecuted, and the liberation was for others [00:07:30] by Pierre, which was translated from the French. These are just a couple of them, but these began to come out in the seventies eighties and nineties as people began to tell their own their stories of being persecuted as gay men and lesbians. Um, so we need to ask what is the place of sexual dissidents? And I use the term sexual dissidents also because it's in any kind of resistance to mainstream heteronormative, where heterosexuality is seen as [00:08:00] the norm. So what is the place of sexual dissidents in the overall scholarship on Holocaust victims? And why has it remained so visibly absent or under theorised in Holocaust research? Now? Recently, Dagmar Herzog has written a book called Sexuality in Europe. 1/20 Century History. This just came out a couple of years ago, and she notes that sexuality has been burdened with enormous significance over the course of the 20th century, given the separation of sexuality [00:08:30] from reproduction and procreation, which became apparent not only through the rising availability of birth control during this time period, the 20th century, but also through heightened expectations of erotic pleasure, particularly for women, and a general preoccupation in the 20th century with sexual orientation, sexual rights and sexual norms. So, sexuality. When we look at the 20th century, well, you can look at any century, but especially in the 20th century, underwent, um, major [00:09:00] shifts in thinking about about the nature of sexuality and about what it was. Um, one would assume then, because of this, that the significance of sexuality as a marker of cultural organisation would belong to the study of the Holocaust, to the extent that sexuality is always a social and political category, that's always inter fed with social meaning. So I take a Foca and Michel Foucault, the French philosopher approach, that sexuality is not about [00:09:30] biology. That was the older approach, you know. It was about male and female and all the equipment they have and what they do, and so on. Then there was also the psychological or psychoanalytic approach, which looks at which bases sexuality in the mind and with psychic identifications. But Foca said, no, that's not enough. It does include those things, but it also is socially and culturally and historically constructed. In other words, it's an invention. The meaning of sexuality changes [00:10:00] as it moves across centuries, across time and across different cultures. So we also have to keep that in mind when we talk about sexuality as well. Now in my work queering the queering Holocaust studies does not imply the reduction of sexuality to a separate axis of investigation or to a problematic notion of a queer Holocaust. Some people talk about a Holocaust and all this other stuff, and I don't you know, I don't I think that's just going, you know, too far over the edge, [00:10:30] Um, or even talking about a queer Holocaust, as if that exists, you know, in isolation. Um, but in my work, it's a way of my work on queering. Holocaust Studies is a way of broadening interpretations and understandings of the Holocaust through analysing particular discursive and institutional practises of the Third Reich, always in relation to racial hygiene, eugenics and anxieties around social degeneracy and [00:11:00] other nationalist goals and concerns alongside and in addition to the politics of sexuality and resistances to heteronormative. In other words, we have to study sexuality side by side, uh, Nazi notions of race gender, population and so on. But we also have to look not only at power, but at resistance. Because wherever there is power, as I'm sure, you know, with all groups in the Holocaust, there is also resistance. OK, [00:11:30] so examining the Holocaust through theorising more explicitly and more systematically, the politics of sexuality under national Socialism, I think, helps point to some blind spots or to some gaps in thinking. Based on the very long absence of, um uh, in the history of Holocaust studies around the interrogation of state sponsored homophobia, beca especially because homophobia operated in collaboration with other vectors of Nazi power, it did not operate alone. [00:12:00] The Nazis did not wake up one day and decide to be homophobic. Rather, homophobia was layered within their racial politics, within their ideas about gender, within their ideas about eugenics and population and so on, as I'll try to argue now, it must be recognised for, uh that for a very long time, homosexuality was regarded as an inappropriate area of Holocaust research. It was regarded as too titillating. Um, many, uh, teachers [00:12:30] who would teach the Holocaust in Israel, for instance, were very um um I guess upset or shocked that when they taught the Holocaust to actual the actual Children of Holocaust survivors in Israel at high school level that the, um, the students, the high school students were very much, you know, titillated by, uh, pictures of naked bodies being moved into gas chambers and so on. And people were very upset that, you know, this was sort of, um uh, having [00:13:00] an adverse effect. It was too titillating. It was almost reducing the study of the Holocaust to to pornography or to trivialization. So people thought, Well, homosexuality, there might be some problems, you know, with that as well. I know when the, um, the Holocaust Memorial Museum opened up in Washington DC they have a very huge live and holocaust centre there for the advanced study of the Holocaust. And there was some concern that, you know, uh, some groups were writing into the paper, uh, to the newspaper and saying because they were [00:13:30] upset because there was a very small section of a corner on gay and lesbian victims and someone said, Well, people's bad bedroom behaviour should not be, you know, memorialised in such a, you know, in such an important institution. So these these thoughts and these ideas were circulated have been circulating for a long time now. This speaks in part, to historical tensions within Holocaust studies, in terms of understanding Jews as the primary victims of Nazi policies, given that they were destined for genocide and [00:14:00] an attempt to understand other victims of Nazi persecution as what was so beautifully stated. Uh uh. In the introduction, and just to, uh, briefly summarise Michael Berenbaum succinctly frames the point in noting the position of EV cell, which acknowledges that while all that not that while not all victims of Nazi atrocities were Jews, all Jews were victims by virtue of being Jewish and that a focus on other victims may detract from [00:14:30] the Judaic sign of the Holocaust, the systematic murder of 6 to 7 million Jews and the possible effacement of their memory. So he acknowledges there are other victims. But he worries that if we go too far, we may lose. I mean, nothing compares to 6 to 7 million Jews. I mean, of all of the groups, and he's very concerned that we lose that memory. Then there's another position that is, um, advocated or articulated by, uh, Simon Wiesenthal and maintains [00:15:00] that the Holocaust transcended the confines of the Jewish community and that there were other victims. Um, as indicated by the historical record. Now, I still maintain, as I do in my book. Oh, well, there's a picture of it. I don't mean to be promoting my book. Um uh, in my book Lost intimacies that it's important to recognise very important, to recognise the magnitude of the Jewish victims of national socialist policy, but that an understanding of other victims will deepen our understanding of the Holocaust and of Nazi fascism. [00:15:30] Given that racial politics were very much present in the persecution of gay men and lesbians. Now, I just wanted to pause for a second and talk a little bit about the Weimar period, which preceded because this is very important for understanding, um, of the ways in which gay and lesbians were, um, were persecuted. So the, uh, the post World War one years and the establishment of the Weimar Republic in Germany between 1919 and 1933 signalled a new social order in Germany, enabling a greater openness towards sexuality, [00:16:00] a challenge to restrictive laws and social codes which were underway from the desk or the turn of the last century until well into, uh, the, uh, the and 20 of the 20th century. The rising modernist movement in Europe was happening at the time, which attempted to shake off the vestiges of the past, particularly the vestiges of Victorianism. And there was a search for new ideas and new forms in literature, philosophy and the visual arts, [00:16:30] creating a climate of exploration and experimentation in art. The spirit of experimentation and breaking free from received conventions was also reflected in social reforms, and this included new ideas that challenge social conventions around sexuality. So there was a link between experimenting in literature and art and thought to experimenting with social reforms, including ideas around gender and marriage and sexuality. The rising [00:17:00] shift that brought about significant rethinking or this rising shift brought about significant rethinking on such complex issues as marriage, reproduction and inter gender relations also enabled the flourishing of the gay and lesbian subculture at its peak in the 19 twenties in Germany, in such cities as Berlin, Hamburg, Cologne, Munich and Frankfurt. There was also a president of this SE um, which was a male friendship sort of organisation. Um, uh, founded by [00:17:30] Adolph Brand. Um, in the early 20th century, and this came out of the German romantic tradition where men had to go off into the woods and practise being male and, you know, and it was also a bit misogynistic because this group thought that you know, that the strength and virility of men were weakened by being around women, so they had to break away and go into the woods and find their inner male and all this kind of thing. But, um, there was the CHF egan which was happening, um, in the early 20th century, and also a lesbian [00:18:00] sub called are developed in, uh in Weimar Berlin, in Paris, in the Left Bank. Um, many people from the UK and from America would go to Berlin or to Paris and try to discover their artistic potentials. Many left their marriages because they felt that the marriage was too restrictive to explore their artistic abilities. So it was a very interesting time. Also, Dr Magnus Hirschfeld and his scientific humanitarian committee advocated at the time [00:18:30] for the scientific study of sexuality. Now Hirschfeld, who is also Jewish, founded the Institute for Sexual Science in Berlin in 1918, which he directed until it was plundered and destroyed by the Nazis in 1933 right after they took power, the institute attracted a huge international reputation for its pioneering research, and it theorised homosexuality as congenital and as, uh, constitutionally or genetically determined, rather than simply being acquired. Most important, Hirschfeld [00:19:00] began campaigning for the rights of homosexuals as far back as 18 97 through raising public awareness of same sex, love and affection bonds for both gay men and lesbians, and through trying but not succeeding, to gain public support for the decriminalisation of homosexuality based on the principle of mutual consent between adults through the repeal of Paragraph 1 75 of the German penal code, which I'll talk about later. So he tried to get that repeal but was not successful, even during the Weimar this period [00:19:30] of, uh, of, um of very progressive kinds of thinking, Um, especially around sexuality. OK, so during the Weimar period, Berlin especially became a vibrant European centre for gay and lesbian subculture worldwide, the city gained the reputation as a major queer capital with liberal attitudes toward the body and unconventional sexuality. Gay and lesbian bars and nightclubs flourished. Gay writers such as Andre GWH. Auden, Christopher Shwoo Isherwood. Many others lived actually in [00:20:00] Berlin during this period, and the police authorities in the 19 twenties became much more tolerant toward gay bars and gay cafes, and they concentrated instead on observing male prostitutes and homosexual interactions with minors. So I don't have the time. The period is very interesting, and I like to teach it, and my students are very interested in it, but I don't have the time to go into that history now. But it's important to note that despite calls for sex reforms, a greater openness to public discussions around sexuality, challenges to restrictive laws [00:20:30] and social codes all of that a greater visibility and confidence on gay men and lesbians. Not everyone, however, shared these progressive ideas. This openness, this subversion of traditional gender norms or same sex desire. This was also the period of the new woman who was liberated from the conventional constraints, um, of marriage, um, and of domestic life. As a matter of fact, right wing opposition to the to the new public visibility of homosexuality [00:21:00] and demands for restraint intensified under the, especially as unemployment and inflation began to rise between 1929 and 1933. Actually, the very openness in public and publicity around sexuality and sexual provided the fodder for a violent backlash under the sexual politics of Nazism that followed the Weimar years. So it's very important to know that even during the Weimar, people began to say, OK, wait a minute. Things have gone a bit too far. We have [00:21:30] to cut back. Things need to be established. We need to clean things up and so on, which is exactly what the Nazis did when they came into power. Now here's a little outline of my talk just so we, uh, I, I don't want people to get lost or think that I'm talking all over the place, as I sometimes do so These are the main things what we know about the historical record, and I keep saying, you know, it's because there has been so much resistance to you know, this line of inquiry I like to keep saying, but it's, you know, as historians, you know, it's a matter of [00:22:00] record. These are the things that are in the record, although at sometimes I feel we need to read the record much more carefully and much more critically as well. The record doesn't signify in and of itself. It's the way that it's read and the way that it's interpreted. And the record has been read from a very, I think, sort of limited point of view, and we have to go back and reread it and so on. But these are the things that we know. OK, So as soon as the Nazis came to power in January 1933 through [00:22:30] the campaign for a Clean Reich, measures were taken to ensure the efficacy of the normal abnormal split with regard to sexuality, which the new government believed had been undermined under the previous Weimar. So there are some things that are abnormal, and there are some things that are normal and we have to get back to order. Things have gone too far, so they wanted to bring back this categorization of what's normal and what's not. The Nazis began with the official banning of pornography in February 1933 just one month after coming into power. [00:23:00] The raiding, looting and destruction of books and manuscripts in Magnus Hirschfeld Sexual Science Institute in May of 1933 and raids on and closings of gay bars in Berlin and other cities in 1933 and 1934. Now they did other things as well, when they first came into power. I'm just following the sort of the gay and lesbian sort of, you know, trajectory, Um, but it's important not to look at these early forms of power as well as those that followed as targeting homosexuality [00:23:30] in isolation without its deeper layering in Nazi racial and gender politics, Nazi displays of power were very deliberately performative and staged in order to induce fear as a way of restoring masculinity, which which they believed was lost after the German defeat in World War One and the further weakening of Germany through economic depression. So it was also a desire to restore [00:24:00] masculinity to the German nation state. This required in the views of the Nazis, a tightening of gender roles and the re instantiation of the traditional gender split or gender binary as a way of restoring masculinity as forceful, ver and willful. This meant that women were to be driven out of the world of work and that their independence was to be curtailed so that they could concentrate on domestic and family life. Repeated impregnation was regarded as a man's [00:24:30] assertion of masculinity and as his right masculinity. Indeed, a hyper masculinity was inseparable from the identity of the Third Reich, especially within the Nazi leadership, which feminised both Jews and Jewish men and homosexuals by representing them in ways that made them stand out in stark contrast to the very militaristic and highly gendered character of Nazi rule. This is precisely where sexuality, race [00:25:00] and gender intersect. And it's very important, I think, to look at Intersectionality rather than to look at each group in parallel relations so that you have, you know, Jewish victims. Then you have, um, homosexuals. You have Roma Sinti. Uh, you have Jehovah's Witnesses. I mean, because what we what we know about parallel lines from geometry class, right is that they never meet. And of course, it's very important to look at different ways. These different oppressions intersect without saying that they're equal, [00:25:30] or that they're saying that they're the same because they're not we also, just because things intersect doesn't mean that all groups are on the same social, political and economic ground, either. But it's very important to see when it comes to Nazi power. You know how anti Semitism, race, gender and sexuality are very much tied to a very deliberate and systematic kind of programme. Um now, as George Moss points out, stereotypical [00:26:00] depictions of so called sexual degenerates like homosexuals were transferred nearly intact to so called inferior races who inspired fears of unbridled sexuality to the extent that Jews and other races deemed inferior were marked by excessive, uncontrollable sexuality. In other words, both homosexuals and Jew and Jews were thought to use their uncontrollable lust and passions as weapons against the morality [00:26:30] of the Vogue and the superiority of the Nordic race. OK, so there was all of this around the campaign for the cleaner, right? The next point is the rain purge, which is also called The Light of the the Night of the Long Knives. So you can see how systematic just by looking at the dates. So the campaign for a clean right, 33 to 34 the rain purge 1934 the next 1 1935. So let's go to rain purge. And, of course, the [00:27:00] racial of homosexuality can be used to understand the rain purge of 1934 and Nazi intolerance for homosexuality within its own ranks. On 30 June 1934 Ernst Reim, leader of the S A or the STM AB, the Nazi storm troopers who was homosexual, was murdered by the SS. Also murdered during the night of the long knives, as it was called, were other known homosexuals in the S A and those in the S, a leadership who were perceived to threaten the consolidation of [00:27:30] Hitler's power initially, and Ray had Hitler's support, and Hitler knew about Rame. Um, since the essay was necessary for the seizure and maintenance of power while the murders were politically motivated. The murder of Rame in particular, indicates that homophobia was used to justify the persecution of homosexuals as enemies of the state, on the grounds of disloyalty and the subversion of national interests. Homosexuality could also be used as a form of denunciation [00:28:00] of the regime's political enemies. It didn't matter if you were homosexual or not. The denunciation of it, you know, by by denouncing you and even suggesting that you were could place you into danger as Ray's assassination marked a decisive turn in the intolerance of homosexuality within the Nazi ranks. And in general, it would be questionable, I think, to theorise the hyper masculinity demonstrated and performed by Nazi men in power and the Homo erotic potential within these [00:28:30] very tightly knit Homo social bonds. Homo social means that it was all men, one gender. OK, we shouldn't see this as forms of latent homosexuality among Nazi men. Now, a lot of people say that all that mail, all that, you know, the fact that they were all men, that they had power, that they wore These very sort of, you know, militaristic uniforms were very attractive were not only homo social because it was a group of men. But it was also the homo erotic, which OK, maybe some people were attracted [00:29:00] about and then to go further, to say that they related homosexuals. I mean, I think we have to be a bit careful there. Now that doesn't mean none of them, you know, were or that none of them had sex with each other. I don't you know, But it was not. It was if if that happened, it was certainly the exception, I think, and not the rule, because this would eide the simultaneous disavow of same of felt same sex desires and prohibitions against their enactment within fascism, as well as the impact of the rain purge [00:29:30] and then Hitler's later decision in 1941 to denounce what he referred to as the plague of homosexuality by prescribing the death penalty for those in the SS and secret police convicted under paragraph 1 75. And now, of course, the possibilities of sex between men within the elite ranks of the Nazi Party are not precluded despite strict prohibitions against them. But it is important to bear in mind that these close knit same sex bonds were very highly managed, [00:30:00] socially under very powerful strategies of homophobic surveillance, discipline and regulation. OK, now the next thing. So I'm sorry my slides aren't in the right order. I have to keep going back. OK, so now we're up to the revision of paragraph 1 75 of the penal code in 1935. So do you see how quite systematic this is? Almost every year, there's, like a, uh, a new thing the Nazis seemed very keenly aware of the ambiguities [00:30:30] in defining homosexuality only through private sexual acts, thus recognising its social mediation, the social mediation of sexuality and the signifying practises through which same sex desires and identities were encoded. Now remember I mentioned Foca a bit earlier about sexuality not being reduced to the body or not being reduced to the mind and the Nazi. I mean, I hate to give the Nazis credit for anything, but they knew that just what people [00:31:00] did to and with each other or what they did in bed or whatever was not enough to talk about sexuality. So as a result, the orig Well, anyway, the original paragraph 175 of the penal code, which I've translated there, uh, became law in 18 71. So this preceded the Nazis by quite some time. And this criminalised unnatural sex acts between males or between humans and animals notice how they put homosexuality and beastiality sort of in [00:31:30] the same, uh, in the same category, um, and punish those charges with imprisonment. Unnatural sex acts was often taken as synonymous with anal intercourse, but could also include oral penetration. Inter cruel sex and self gratification in the presence of another man. So it was basically either sexual intercourse or intercourse like acts that could be, uh, that could be used as evidence for prosecution. However, on 28 June 1935 [00:32:00] Article six of the amendment to paragraph 1, 75 was passed, and they replaced the term Unnatural Sex Act with that of sexual of sex offence Now. So before there was an unnatural sex act, and the only way to, uh to, uh, to prosecute someone was to catch them in that act. But sex offence is much broader, so it makes it much more easier to to catch someone [00:32:30] rather or to prosecute someone, rather than only defining homosexuality by a sex act. The revised paragraph 1 75 was referred to now as paragraph 1 75 A, and this allowed for imprisonment of up to 10 years, or not less than three months for men who threatened to commit acts of violence toward other men in order to compel them to engage in a sex offence for men who abused relations of dependence based on service, employment [00:33:00] or subordination. Um, for men who seduced younger men under the age of 21. For men who committed sex offences with other men in public and for homosexual prostitutes. Now what committed a sex offence was much broader. The use of the term sex offence not only designated an intercourse like act oral penetration, anal penetration, inter cruel sex where a man places the Penis between the thighs of his partner but could also include [00:33:30] any kind of sexual gratification in the presence of another man, including physical contact between men with sexual intent, including touching, kissing, hugging and so on. Paragraph 175 A also made any expression of feeling between men and Homo erotic fantasy and thought criminal offences. The revision of the law could also be applied retroactively in prosecutions for offences committed prior to 1935. So if when the law changed [00:34:00] in 1935 and you were awaiting your trial even though maybe you were arrested before the law was changed, they could use the new law against you. The revision of paragraph 175 to 175 a was a shift from sodomy to other expressions of same sex desire, which could include men kissing, embracing, fondling as well as homosexual fantasies that were articulated in private conversations in diaries and in letters. So do you see the [00:34:30] shift from that? In that law, from 1 75 to 1 75? A. How broader? It created the, uh, the basis for, uh, for prosecution now, while there were Now what? What do you What you notice about this law is that it only mentions gay men pretty much OK, There's no mention of lesbians. There's no mention of lesbian sex, and it was not specifically encoded into law either in paragraph 1 75 in the original version [00:35:00] or in 1 75 a. And I'm gonna come back and talk about that separately because I think I'm gonna give separate, uh, a separate point to, uh, lesbians. OK, so coming back to where we left off the revision of the establishment of the Reich office for combating homosexuality and abortion. So now we're up to 1936. The idea that Nazi sexual politics intersected with racial and gender politics in the National Socialist imaginary is further evident in Heinrich Heim's [00:35:30] establish of their homosexuality. The Reich Central Office for combating Homosexuality and Abortion within Gestapo headquarters in Berlin on 26 October 1936. Now this is interesting. Why are homosexuality and abortion put together in the same office in the same department? This also gives us a A clue or a hint, but you cannot separate [00:36:00] homosexuality from their racial and population politics. The establishment of a special department within the Reich Central Office for combating homosexuality and abortion was part of a process of heightened inscription and prosecution of homosexuals through what Jeffrey Giles refers to as centralised police intervention made possible through the extension of paragraph 1 75. So because 1 75 was extended to include a broader range of, you know, uh, possibilities for prosecution, [00:36:30] it almost was sort of a natural thing to have this, uh, Reich office established. But the fact that Homo homosexuality and abortion were linked in the same central office connects homosexuality. I think, more prominently with racial and population politics. Homosexual sex and a high number of abortions were blamed for stunting population growth. As Michael Burle notes in his book The History of the Third Reich, which is a very thick tome the banning of abortion [00:37:00] and contraception applied only to Aryans. Since the procedures and practises were to be left, These practises and procedures were to be left as options, along with involuntary sterilisation for the eugenically unfit, such as Jews, Roma Sinti and Arab and African Germans. Homosexuality was thus coupled with abortion because both had deleterious effects on the birthright of the birth rate among Aryan Germans. The main task of this office to quantify index and compare relevant data to keep [00:37:30] those suspected and convicted of homosexuality with their personal details obtained, uh, also with the personal details on their sexual partners. Links with the Gestapo were maintained by the right Central Office in so far as an offender's homosexuality presented a serious threat to population policy or public health. So this office was basically to gather information on index cards. I mean, you know, the office were very sort of very fastidious about their records. Um, the more serious cases, however, that were handed over to the Gestapo, [00:38:00] included congenital homosexuality or recidivous. So if you if you kept doing it and it was probably that's the way you were born, um, then this was a concern to the Gestapo, as well as rent boys, male prostitutes and homosexual offences involving juveniles and homosexual offence uh, offences within the Catholic clergy. To the extent that these threatened or endangered Children, Jeffrey Giles argues that quote, the implementation of policies against homosexuals was neither consistent nor unfailingly rigorous [00:38:30] end quote, which was not the case with regard to Jewish victims. So one must recognise that the sort of prosecution of homosexuals was not as rigorous. Um, it was, um yes, it was not as, uh as rigorous or as organised as it was with regard to the final solution. What the historical record does indicate, however, is that surveillance and arrest did rise. The surveillance and arrest of homosexuals did rise sharply in the years following the establishment of this office. [00:39:00] In the period between 1937 and 1939 for example, 90,000 men and youth were registered as suspected homosexuals or as presumed partners. So that means their names were on cards. They they had files in this right office. An unpublished report of the Reich Central Office for Combating Homosexuality and Abortion indicates that the number of men sentenced for crimes under paragraph 1 75 or 1 75 a to be about 43,000 between the year. The Reich office was founded in 1936 [00:39:30] and the outbreak of World War Two in 1939. So 90,000 people were on record for homosexual, you know, for being suspected of homosexuality. Almost half 43,000, um, were convicted and sentenced, um, between 1936 and 1939 now, when World War One broke out, the Reich office was then closed. And the Gestapo, um and, uh, the Gestapo took over in terms of managing, [00:40:00] um, who was sent to concentration camps and so on. Along these lines, the Nazi state both and medically viewed Arian homosexuals as population zeroes who contributed to Germany's declining birth rate by not fulfilling their obligation to the reproduction of the master race and the welfare of the nation, and as criminals who seduced and corrupted the young in medical literature. Going back to the late 19th century, which is rife with scientific racism, images of male Jews and homosexuals often run parallel. [00:40:30] Both were portrayed as prone to hysteria and feminised through such descriptive characteristics as tone of voice and bodily movements more appropriate to women than to men. I mean, this is how they were often represented in medi, represented in medical literature. And, of course, Nazi medicine was very much attached to the state. Um thus the social inscription of male Jews and homosexuals were not only racialized and medicalized but gendered and denied masculine agency. For white Nordic homosexuals, [00:41:00] homosexuality represented a visible mark of Unger for homosexuals from racial groups already as social outsiders. Their sexuality was further marked as an indicator of racial inferiority, So it was a no win situation. If you were a white German, you were seen as being un German because you didn't fulfil your duties as a father and so on. And if you were a member of another racial group, that was just another instance of your racial degeneracy. Um, and you can see there's another from a medical journal. [00:41:30] Um, yes, from deer on pathogenic germs. And there's a Petri, a microscope with a Petri dish, and then the Petri dish is superimposed, and these are all the germs in the nation state. And if you look very closely, I don't know if you can see because The tree is so far away. But what can you see? Triangles. What else? Star of David. Yeah, What else? Hammer and Communist. [00:42:00] Yes, Dollar signs, capitalism. These are the pathogenic germs. Can you hear me If I'm not here, These are the pathogenic germs that can infect the nation. So it's a very scary. This is supposed to be symbolic medical research and you know all of that And of course, the germs. And of course, this was part of the Nazi propaganda machinery. Now, at the same time, while it is important to examine homosexuality under national socialism in relation to eugenics and Nazi racial [00:42:30] and population politics, it does not follow that homosexuals and Jews stood on the same social and political ground in the national Socialist imaginary. Just because we're making that comparison the way that they were represented in medical literature, we have to be very careful that the pathways for homosexual and for Jews were very, very different. Punishments for homosexuality, unlike persecutions against Jews, were not were not consistently applied. Punishments varied in severity as a result of disagreements among Nazi officials [00:43:00] and medical doctors regarding the extent to which homosexuality was regarded as a behavioural or psychic disorder, or as a genetic trait that could infect the health of the nation. Some homosexuals were given the opportunity to reform through reeducation, an option not open to Jewish victims. Homosexuals if they could prove that they were not sexually active and if the Gestapo had no proof to the contrary, could escape prosecution another option not open to Jewish victims, regardless as to whether or not [00:43:30] they were observant of the rules of their faith or had renounced the Jewish religion. This shows them that, unlike the persecution of Jews, Nazi persecutions against homosexuals were not as systematic, that is. There was no concerted campaign of the mass murder of homosexuals equivalent to the Holocaust against the Jews. And that point very much needs to be made. Although we can see that the racial politics often intersected when we talk about, um uh, gay and lesbian victims. Now, what were [00:44:00] what were some of the actual look for? I think I just went the wrong way. Yeah, some of the actual persecutions and internment in camps, the varying forms of actual persecution of homosexuals under national socialism. In addition to changes in the law, the destruction of gay and lesbian communities and cultures are already very well documented. What we do know is that in the 12 years between 1933 and [00:44:30] 1945 there were about 100,000 men persecuted for homosexuality. Close to half that's between 96,000 men were convicted and initially given a prison term, depending on the nature of the crime. Initially six months for mutual masturbation, a year or more for oral sex. Harsher punishments for anal sex. Seducers of youth, paedophile paedophilia and recidivous Andren. Weer, who has done a lot of work in Berlin at the [00:45:00] the gay Museum that's there, which is also a library and an archive. He points out that judges often acted on their own discretion based on their interpretations of morality and healthy German people. Gunter Grau analysis of documents of the Nazi leadership indicates roughly 5000 of those who were convicted were deported to concentration camps, So the numbers are all varying very much so. You have 100,000 men in all approximately who were persecuted. Um who Sorry who were pro who? Yeah, 100,000 who were, [00:45:30] um who were prosecuted or who were arrested. UH, 46,000 to 50,000 of those about half were convicted and sent to prison, and then about 5000 of those were deported to camps. Then Ruger Loman came along and researched archives at the International Tracing Service in Aalen, Germany, and found the number of homosexual prisoners in camps identifiable by the obviously by the pink triangle [00:46:00] that they were made to wear on their uniforms varied. The number of people in the camps varied at any given time or any given moment in any given camp because the head counts were not as precise as they were for this group of victims. Now, he estimates, between 20,000 homosexual men were incarcerated in camps during the Nazi regime. And that's I think, because of the rigour of his research. That's the figure that more or less stands out in the research, and most people then estimate the median at 10,000, [00:46:30] he says, anywhere between five and 15. So I think the most accepted figure is around 10 10,000 who were incarcerated in camps and that the death rate of homosexuals in the camps was about 60% of those numbers, though he stipulates that the exact number of deaths can never be known fully. A lot of records were destroyed. A lot of records are incomplete. At the beginning of World War Two, the Reich Central Office for Combating Homosexuality and Abortion was reintegrated into the Reich main criminal Police office. [00:47:00] And it was the police who enforced the commitment of homosexual to camps. Following a directive from Himmler on 12 July 1940 criminals and asocial elements, which included homosexuals and lesbians, were to be taken into preventive detention. In other words, a concentration camp following their release from prison. So you would serve your prison sentence and then you had to go to camp. This increased dramatically the number of homosexual prisoners in concentration camps. Men convicted of homosexuality were often assigned the most difficult labour [00:47:30] referred to as extermination through work such as through working in the punishment battalions of the rock quarries in Buchenwald, in the gravel pits of from 1934 to 1936 and in the underground galleries where V two weapons were being produced at Dora Mitel in the winter of 1943 and 44 homosexual prisoners were also tortured, forced to have sexual intercourse with prostitutes in order to prove themselves cured, and at Buchenwald in particular, which had the highest proportion of homosexual prisoners. Those [00:48:00] convicted of homosexuality were subject to medical experimentation. In his article on homosexual inmates at Buchenwald. Uh, Wolfgang Wolfgang, Uh, role indicates that voluntary and enforced castrations were a Nazi measure to eradicate homosexuality since the mid thirties, and that 200 castrations were performed at Buchenwald between 1938 and 1940 alone. He further elaborates that from 1942 the Nazi leadership feared a possible outbreak of typhus fever [00:48:30] both at the front and within Germany, especially at the camps within Germany, and developed an experimental station for typhus, FIFA at at Buchenwald. A considerable portion of the subjects tested based on camp records came from the penal battalion, where a significant number of those prisoners were homosexual, many of whom met with agonising deaths through the administration of inadequately tested and underdeveloped vaccines for typhus at Buchenwald. In particular, experiments involving the introduction of a sexual hormone [00:49:00] implant which was implanted into the Groyne region, uh, and would reduce would release additional testosterone into the bloodstream as a way of curing deviant sexual desire. Um, these implants were performed by the famous or, I should say, infamous Danish SS doctor Carl Vane and resulted in several deaths, including heart failure and festering inflammation of cell tissues. Because homosexual men interred in concentration camps held very low status in the camp hierarchy, they were often given the most dangerous and [00:49:30] physically difficult labour to perform. They were subject to various forms of medical experimentation. As human guinea pigs. They were subjected to beatings and rape by camp guards and other prisoners, sometimes resulting in death. They were ostracised within the camp community. They were given no positions of responsibility no or anything like that. And they encountered hostility from other prisoners because of the societal influence of homophobia in the broader society. They were also subjected to execution, though not systematically, through firing squads [00:50:00] and then through gas chambers, and were subjected to a higher mortality rate, among other non racial or compared with other non racialized groups. The inconsistencies in the Nazi persecution of homosexual men, while linked with its racial policy and the framing of the practises and institutions for casting homosexuals as enemies of the state. While not reducible to the final solution should not, however, obscure the historical and material realities of homophobic terror, violence and murder that gay men [00:50:30] suffered under Nazism. And then I just wanted to make my final point. I should have arranged these differently on the persecutions of lesbians and resistant women or lesbians as resistant women. And as I said before, Holocaust research, um has quite consistently stipulated that lesbians were not as systematically persecuted by Nazis as were gay men, largely because lesbian sex was not criminalised um under [00:51:00] paragraph of 175 of the penal code. Now there is evidence, however, that there were debates among Nazi jurors as to the legal status of sex between women. And some Nazi jurors did argue, when you look at transcripts of debates that, um, that lesbian sex should be included in the criminal code. A transcript from the minutes of discussions by the Subcommittee on Population Policy in March 1936 for example, demonstrates that some Nazi officials believed that population policy [00:51:30] was very much was not threatened by female homosexuality. In response to proposals for its criminalization under the assumption that if a woman was seduced by another woman, she would not necessarily withdraw from normal heterosexual relations and could still be useful in terms of population growth and development. The subcommittee also spoke to the difficulty of proving illicit sex between women, given a woman's natural quote, natural inclination towards effusiveness and caring. End quote. [00:52:00] There were those who did argue for paragraph 1 75 being extended to women, Um, are being extended to women arguing that lesbians bore the same threat of racial degeneration to the Aryan Nation as did homosexual men. But the final decision was not issued until 1942 in a letter from the Reich, minister of Justice to the commissioner for the occupied Norwegian territories in Oslo, the letter states. Quote Homosexual activity between women apart from prostitutes is not so widespread as it is among men, [00:52:30] given the more intense manners, social intercourse between women women who indulge in unnatural sexual relations are not forever lost as procreative factors. In the same way that homosexual men are, and for experience shows us, they often resume to normal relations, end quote. But the fact that the possibility existed was very, you know, made lesbians live in a lot of fear because they knew that it was illegal and that paragraph 175 had already been extended for men. And there was the threat [00:53:00] that it may be extended to women as well. And there were also various forms of persecution. Um, so it's important to challenge this view because it the view that lesbians were not as systematically persecuted because it risks further misrepresentations or elisions, um, of the victims of Nazism. And also there is a broader precedent. There has been a broader precedent in Holocaust research that has not paid sufficient attention to the unique experiences of women because of a historically [00:53:30] masculine bias. In narratives about Holocaust victims and survivors, women tell a different story, and for a long time if it if if their experiences did not happen to men, they were regarded as trivialised or as trivial and not as important. So there has been which is changing now because feminist scholarship certainly has had effects on Holocaust research in queering Holocaust studies, not queering the Holocaust, but queering holy studies. It [00:54:00] is important, as I argue elsewhere, to ensure that the axes of sexuality not override and obscure the axes of gender so that we can allow the specificity of lesbian difference as distinct from gay men and as distinct from heterosexual women to emerge. So it's very important that we just don't look at sexuality because then that tends to get reduced to gay men. We also have to keep gender in the picture. So it's kind of like you have to juggle all of these things together. The racial politics, the gender politics, you [00:54:30] know, keeping gender in the picture along with sexuality, Uh, and so on. Well, there was a thriving lesbian subculture we know in Weimar, Germany, and in Paris during the interwar years. And I think I already talked a little bit about the culture that was emerging in the lesbian subcultures of Weimar Germany and also the Left Bank of Paris. The New Woman. And that was not necessarily a lesbian movement. But many women in the New Woman movement were lesbian, and here's just some very interesting pictures. Berlin Les Les [00:55:00] Schroen was written by Margaretta Roig, which talks very interesting, very interesting ideas about lesbians and, you know, and their artistic achievements. And Magnus Hirschfeld wrote the introduction. The forward to that book. There you have Marlena Dietrich. There's a lesbian couple performer at the bottom. Um, so it was a very interesting, a very interesting time during the more years. But it's important to point out that the more repressive Third Reich did not render lesbian existence completely invisible, [00:55:30] either. At the same time, just because lesbian sex was not criminalised in paragraph 175 does not mean that lesbians did not suffer persecution in Austria before the country's to Nazi Germany. Paragraph 1 29 1 B criminalised all forms of same sex sexuality, regardless of gender, which carried a potential prison sentence of 1 to 5 years. According to Mattie BF Paragraph 1 29 1. B remained on the books in Austria between 1938 [00:56:00] and 1945 and was linked to the German paragraph 175 a after the anus in 1938 resulting in intensified persecutions, countless deportations to concentration camps and numerous deaths, and the statute main. That's paragraph 129. 1 B on the books after the Constitution of Austria's second republic, though the German penal code did not adopt Austria's Paragraph 1 29 1 B. So Austria kept its 129 1 B after the they also [00:56:30] adopted the one, the German 1 75 a. Germany did not adopt the Austrian 129 1 B OK, and the 1 29 1 B was not lifted or decriminalised until 1971. Similar to gay men, lesbians also suffered the destruction of their bars and clubs, the banning of their newsletters, the breaking apart of their subculture and their sense of community that had existed and grown in many German cities. As I said before, from the beginning of the 20th century through the Weimar under the Third Reich, the Nazis saw women not otherwise [00:57:00] if they weren't otherwise marked by ethnic or racial difference, physical or mental handicap, party membership or political or religious beliefs. Women were generally been predestined for motherhood and the domestic sphere, and therefore seen as subordinate to men. As Robert Proctor notes in his book Racial Hygiene, the Nazis saw women as reproductive rather than political beings specific to lesbians. The enforcement of gender norms tied to heteronormative sex, uh, sexuality could place them in danger if they did not conform [00:57:30] to Nazi ideals of femininity. Now Claudia Shatman, who I mentioned earlier who collected writings by lesbian survivors of the Third Reich in her book Days of Masquerade, reflects on the lived experience of Elizabeth Zimmerman, who was only one of the women she interviewed to illustrate the gender specific socialisation of girls and young women and how this centred on their obligation. I mean, this was the raising of young girls to be sexually passive and to remain chased because sexual passivity was inflated [00:58:00] with conventional femininity. To be feminine was to be sexually passive. In other words, as a Nazi conduct book read, uh, said to remain pure and to mature, the process of discovering one's lesbian desires could be spread over a much longer period of time than was the case for gay men. The enforcement of gender roles for women was, of course, very much tied to Nazi population goals, especially to raise the birth rate in Germany, which had declined [00:58:30] in the period from the beginning of the 20th century to 1932. Procter notes that in 1900 the German birth rate was 36 births per 1000 people. By 1932 there were fewer than 15 births per 1000. So it went down by more than half. The racial hygiene movement that went back to 1917 in Germany valued quote a healthy tendency toward motherhood in women, which was approved at the highest levels of the Nazi hierarchy after 1933. There was also [00:59:00] evidence of Nazi propaganda, speaking of of an awareness of lesbian existence and its threat to population quotas of the German state, Dash K, an official journal of the SS, indicated in 1937 that quote The true woman suffers if unmarried not because she lacks sexual intercourse, but because she lacks a child and has not answered her calling to motherhood. So in the case of lesbians, non heteronormative, non procreative forms of sexuality seem to be erased or dismissed as inconsequential. You don't [00:59:30] see anything about lesbian sex in the penal code or, you know it's just completely erased. But with men, sexual intercourse or intercourse like acts were encoded specifically into penal law. At the same time, however, the reproach of masculinization was often used to intimidate women who dare to speak out, who dare to break out of traditional gender norms and hetero, sexist social structures, as this would be perceived as a threat to the stability of the regime. Signs of overt masculinity in a woman such as hairstyle, [01:00:00] clothing or outward behaviour enabled the policing of women's gender roles and less overtly erotic lives. Another conduct book published by the Nazis Women Organisation in 1934 interpreted masculine identification in women in women as quote degenerative signs of a foreign race which are hostile to pro and destructive to the people. Healthy races, it said, do not artificially blur the differences between the sexes. End quote. So do you see [01:00:30] how it how it comes back to race and that, you know, uh, homosexuality, Lesbian? I existence is racialized. Gender enforcement for women was linked to Nazi anxieties around the possibilities of lesbian existence, but more important to its anxieties about it, population goals and the connections of non heteronormative sexualities to racial degeneracy. Most lesbians, however, were not prosecuted specifically as lesbians, but as asocial. Now this was a rather broad [01:01:00] group, a diverse category, a catch all category if you will, comprised of those the Nazis considered not to be living up to its ideals of proper citizenship and national belonging and who had not committed any major crime or were not members of an inferior race. Um, this group also included prostitutes, vagrants, those who violated the laws prohibiting sexual relations between Arians and Jews, and so called resistant women who failed to live up to the regime's social demands, such as its demographic [01:01:30] goals. And many in that group of resistant women were lesbians. Not all but as Amy Elman notes, the heterogeneity of this group marked by a black triangle so you won't see the pink triangle on lesbians, um, makes it difficult to render lesbians, uh, legible, because other people also had the Black Triangle based on, you know, being part of this group. And unlike the case of gay men who were identifiable by their pink triangle, the refusal to stop working the resistance to heterosexual marriage [01:02:00] um, the failure to bear Children and certainly having effective and erotic connections to other women refused and refusing to be defined by any relation to men did place many women under threat, particularly if they were lesbian. Despite the lack of criminalization of lesbian desire, this could result in intimidation, harassment, persecution and possible arrest and deportation. Analise um, that's her back in the forties, and that was her shortly [01:02:30] before she died. Uh, the pic the picture on the right was taken in 1994 when she was interviewed by Claudia Shatman. Uh Annelise W, who is also known as Johnny, a lesbian who survived the Nazi era and was interviewed by Claudia Shot in 1987 speaks of the growing climate of fear at the beginning of Hitler's regime, especially the fear of paragraph 175 being changed to include lesbians. And she discusses how many of her lesbian friends change their appearance or even married men to avoid detection. She [01:03:00] also speaks of a former lover who had spent two years in Robinbrook between 1940 42 for refusing to help produce munitions as part of her compulsory national service. When her superiors suggested that she do that to give another example, which is perhaps more well known. Um, Elizabeth or Lily Woo, the wife of a Nazi officer underwent torturous interrogation in 1944 as a way of forcing her to deny that she had sexual [01:03:30] relations with Felice Reen Heim, a Jewish woman who was initially reen. Heim, is on the right, who initially, um, was arrested in 1941 as an asocial. And then she went underground, and she was re arrested by the Gestapo as a Jew. Renhe died in Bergen Belsen in 19. In January, 1945 was admitted that no lesbian love had existed between the two women. At the time, the admission of a sexual relationship with another woman would [01:04:00] have meant internment in a camp. And, of course, because at the time she was married to a Nazi officer, her interrogation was not trying to make her admit that she had a lesbian relationship but trying to make her deny that she ever had one because it would have been, you know, a scandal and so on. So she lived with this, And it wasn't until 1991 that she corrected the record ending decades of agonising silence by telling her story to the American journalist um Erica Fisher, who published the book Amy and Jaguar [01:04:30] in 1994. Based on the lives of W and Schweig, which was later made into a film the following year of the same name. Amy and Jaguar and Woo died in two 1006 just very recently in Berlin. Lesbian existence still needs to be more meaningfully unfolded into Holocaust research, which cannot be accomplished as I've argued before, by traditional historical approaches that rely on received forms of archival and textual evidence alone, or by assuming that [01:05:00] lesbian existence and persecution during the Third Reich can be understood in the same way as we understand the persecution gay men because they're very different, the gender difference makes is quite key. Rather, we need to understand better. The ways in which some women labelled as asocial and persecuted for their resistance to multiple forms of domination, including the enforcement of fixed notions of femininity through marriage and procreation, restriction to the domestic sphere and sexual subservience to Nazi officers for whom they might have worked could possibly have been lesbian. [01:05:30] Even though their sexuality may not be immediately apparent or legible In the historical record, it is important that historical archives are reread carefully for the possibilities of lesbian existence and read alongside the record of Survivor testimony, only some of which I've been able to address here. This may in turn open up new questions that challenge the heteronormative frames of There used to be a masculine sort of bias in the reading of [01:06:00] testimony and Holocaust history. But there are also heteronormative frames of reference that need to be challenged. Because these heteronormative frames of reference are used are the ways by which we largely understand the past in general, as well as understanding the hetero masculine is bias that for so long has dominated Holocaust scholarship. And I think my time is just about up. So I just wanted to end by saying the future work. Studying the Holocaust can help to deepen its meaning and shape its ongoing [01:06:30] significance by approaching historical sources with new questions about sexuality and gender, while being attentive to the blind spot and the gaps in the historical record, and by illuminating the ongoing ways in which homophobia intersects with other forms of power and continues to shape contemporary society and culture. And I think I should end there so we have some time for questions, so thank you very much. [01:07:00] Are there any questions. Yes, Um, you spoke to, um the idea of, like, a Nazi medicalization of sexuality. And I was wondering if you could maybe talk to the idea because they also persecuted people on the basis [01:07:30] of disability and and the fact of how those may be Yes, yes, well, very much so. Yes, because the the Nazis were very keen on, you know, any kind of pathology. I mean, because they had a very narrow notion of what the norm was, and they re instantiated the norm versus and the only way to sort of define the norm is to define the other. And of course, it's very interesting because when you look at the history [01:08:00] of homosexuality homosexuality as a term, if I move away, am I not picking up on the, um, OK, um, homosexuality is a term did not come into being until 18 69. Um, before it was just considered to be an act. So it was, you know, an act of sodomy that was a crime. It was considered to be a one off. OK, and then medical doctors came along and said, Well, no, wait a minute. There are for some people It's just not a one off thing. It's an identity. It's who they are. [01:08:30] The term heterosexuality was not invented until 18, 80 11 years later, which shows that you always find the other first and then yourself in relation to that other. So yes, the medicalization of homosexuality was very much connected to the, um, the medicalization of those who were physically and mentally disabled. Nazi medicine then were almost looking. It was almost looking for pathologies that confirmed [01:09:00] their prejudices of what was not normal in relation to white, you know, sort of, uh, white Nordic norm. So all of its groups, I think a lot. Although each group was not treated the same, um, the Nazi medicine was very closely linked to the sphere to the sphere of law. And for that reason, there was a major link between, um both physical and mental disability and the medicalization of, [01:09:30] um of homosexuality in very pathological terms, as the German norm was for beautiful blonde, tall, slim, perfectly formed. How do they explain themselves? You know, the top hierarchy with dark hair and obesity and various other things like that. How do they explain that how they being the Nazis themselves. [01:10:00] Do they cope with that? How do they cope with the fact that they weren't the Yes? Yes. Well, they thought they were. I mean, that was the That was the problem. You mean I'm confused by your pronouns. They they thought that the norm was beautiful blonde, but much of the hierarchy were not blonde. Yes. Absolutely. Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. How did they [01:10:30] explain that? Yes, well, they explained it through genetics and through blood and through, even though they did see themselves in very ideal terms. I mean, as the inheritors of the ancient Greek, you know, with those beautiful statues and beautiful bodies which also were a bit homo erotic, you know, I mean, statues that looked like, you know, David and, you know, the Greek gods. I mean, that's and I think they caught on quite soon that, you know, this was having the wrong effect because these statues were all were very attractive and, you know, [01:11:00] and things like that. So that was the There was a way in which they represented themselves as very beautiful. It was part of a propaganda machine, but the real test was was blood and was was was racial eugenic. So I mean, it was on the the blood that you had, and it was interesting because those same processes were used in South Africa to justify apartheid. I mean, when I was studying the sexual politics, I'm very interested in sexual politics and very repressive and totalitarian [01:11:30] regimes. And I was I was researching in South Africa on, um, the sexual politics that emerged out of post apartheid politics after apartheid. And I was aghast to learn that the framers of apartheid in the 19 thirties, before the war visited Nazi Germany to study the hierarchies of the races to justify, you know, to justify indigenous black Africans as inferior and to justify again under a different [01:12:00] kind of paradigm. But there similar white Nordic superiority and to justify, you know, apartheid. So there is a link there as well. And they, too, were not all necessarily, you know, beautiful and perfect specimens like in the statues and all of that. But they believed that they had the right to to live on the best land to a press, the indigenous people who were there all along, and to assert their racial superiority But when it came right down to it, it was more a matter of blood [01:12:30] than looks. But the actual forms of representation and the propaganda and in the literature and in film and, you know, and all of that made them all look, you know, seemed to look very beautiful. But of course, deep down inside, that was something else. Yes. Thank you. Yes, Uh, you explained about 7175. What was the basis of the criminal code for prosecuting [01:13:00] now? Later, you mentioned about some of the tens of thousands of gay men ending up in the camps, the concentration camps, as we call them. Now, somewhere between the two, you made a reference to them undergoing preventative detention after their term of imprisonment. So my question is, what [01:13:30] was the legal basis under the given more at the time? For first, um, sending them to jail for so many years. But then what was the legal basis for them saying, Oh, well, now we're going to put you in a Absolutely. That's a very good question. And there is a bit of gap there. I mean, I think in this regard, the Nazis sort of made it up as they went along. They [01:14:00] were very nervous about because I think that, you know, after the prison term was served, they were not convinced that. And there was a lot of discussion and debate among among the Nazis if homosexuality was congenital or if it was learned. And they were very afraid about releasing people into society again because there was also a large percentage of recidivism where people were being, you know, found guilty again. So it was [01:14:30] better to just keep them in, you know, in under another form of detention in camps, particularly if they it depended also on your record. It depended on the nature of what you went to prison for. Some were sent to camps to, and they were forced to have sexual relations with prostitutes to see if they could be cured. Also, they were needed for the medical experiments that were, you know, that were rising, you know at the time. What's also interesting, of course, is that after being sent [01:15:00] to prison and after serving their their time in camps after liberation under the new government, many homosexual many gay men were put back into serving the remainder of their prison terms if they hadn't served them originally under the Nazis. So can you imagine going to prison, then to camp and then being put back in prison? And that's something that no other group really had. And that's quite unique, I think, to this [01:15:30] group. So many had to go back And, you know, because the new German government felt that these were people who did not deserve reparation. These were people who were criminals and who broke the law. It was 1 75. They broke it. And they deserve to be punished. So just looking at the traces of the ways in which prosecution worked is also quite interesting. Yes. Does that answer your question? Yes. I think you're confident that probably [01:16:00] a lot of the law and they it around. It also been questions. What was the legal basis of putting all the that would have come under the What do you call it? The new law. That was a separate initiative. That the right word? Um that would have happened [01:16:30] with a lot of different. Right? Right. You You think that the days of the concentration camps was essentially Yes, yes, yes, Yes, and I do think that, you know, and because they had absolute power, they still wanted to give the semblance that there was law and order and that they were doing, you know, things according to the book. But they would use the laws very [01:17:00] much to their own advantage and to use them, you know, in such a way that they can basically get away with, you know, whatever they wanted to. Yes, there were lots of other hands. Yes. Um, I was just wondering, you knew or whether you have an opinion as to at the end of the third right and how homophobia changed in Germany. And, um, and those other Western countries, you mean after the Nazis, so they were [01:17:30] like people in Germany were taught that homophobia is because of the genital. There's not There's not specifically a religious imposition. And then to have that shut down? Yes, yes. Well, that's the subject of the of the other talk. I think that was mentioned when I'm speaking. I think on Tuesday at ST Andrews they wanted me to speak not so much about the historical record, but about the ongoing implications. But you do see shifts. We must remember that homophobia [01:18:00] or actual well, none of the prosecutions of any group is a momentary app. I mean, you know, these things you know are continuing in different forms, you know, today. But with regard to gay men and lesbians, I mean the the criminal law. Paragraph 1 75 and 1 75 a. Remained on the books in the former West Germany until 1969 and 1968 in the former East Germany Austria in 1971. And I don't have [01:18:30] the I don't have the figures with me, but the numbers of arrests in the 19 fifties are quite high. I mean, almost as high as they were during this period. I mean, they didn't go to chaos, but I mean, as far as prison sentences and so on were concerned because after the war there was this sense We've got to get back to normalcy. So again, that normal abnormal slip was reinforced again under a different sort of lens, but nevertheless still marking insiders and outsiders reestablishing heterosexuality [01:19:00] as the norm, healthy family relationships, especially in America, of all places. Because what happened in 1948 the publication of the Kinsey Report that 10% of American men after America was feeling very phallic and powerful after you know, the war and all that suddenly to be told that at least 10% of American men pop probably more had sex with another man more than once to the point of orgasm. And after the age of 18. Now, of course, why did Kinsey make those three, stipulations? [01:19:30] I mean, when I asked that to my students, they say, Well, then that's because they must have really enjoyed it. But no, um, because you couldn't dismiss it as you know, uh, what boys do in boarding schools or something, because it was more than once to the point of orgasm and after the age of 18. And, of course, the shocked Postwar America like, 00, my God, that many There might be one living next door. There might be one teaching your Children. And actually it was the military doctors that started ferreting out homosexuals in the military and actually [01:20:00] putting them onto what were called queer ships. So in, if you were stationed in Europe, you were put on the ships that were sent back across the Atlantic, Boston, Philadelphia, New York, Miami. And if you were stationed in the Pacific, Japan and so on you were your ships were sent to, I don't know, Seattle, San Francisco, Los Angeles, to the coastal cities and many people. They got blue discharges, which meant a dishonourable discharge, and they were too embarrassed in those days. It was a period of intense social conformity. They were too embarrassed to go home, [01:20:30] so they just remained in the port cities where they disembarked. And that's why in the States, there are so many gay and lesbian enclaves in those port cities. I mean, gay people like the beaches, too, but that's not the You know. There are social and historical reasons for that. And that's why, um and there's other things. But come on Tuesday and I'm going to, I'm going to sort of pick up where this leaves off and then go into the the other decades. But it was a long time before I mean, even now, with gay marriage. There are, [01:21:00] you know, and all of that. There are still issues. I think the gentleman next to you had a question. So wasn't the only Italy as well. It was quite a few of the public governments around France, Hungary, for a period, but and Germany also affected a lot of the other countries. Spain. Why did Germany's stance on homosexuality not influence those other governments quite as much as it? [01:21:30] That's a very good question. Um, I would say that the whole notion of homophobia was very rampant at the time, anyway. And when you look at any fascist sort of or fascist leaning nation, so Mussolini and you know Franco and so on, you do see what is very characteristic is the instantiation of very tight gender roles, very sort of normative gender roles. And it comes out of that the notion of [01:22:00] what it means to be a man, the notion of what it means to, you know, to be feminine, and to be a woman that these very narrow ideas come about. They didn't go as far as the Nazis did. And, of course, we tend to focus on the Nazis because they actually criminalise people and sent them to prison and into camps and and so on, which didn't necessarily happen. Although under the Vichy government and in the parts of occupied France. They certainly were deported. As a matter of fact, many lesbians left Germany, [01:22:30] migrated to France and then before 1940. And then once the occupation came, they were, you know, they were stuck again. So and wherever the Germans occupied the same rules, you know, applied. So the Netherlands and other places you could be sent to you could be sent to camps. But there were. You're right. There were very slight variations. But, I mean, it wasn't a after the Weimar after the early twenties, the interwar years, the period between World War One [01:23:00] and World War two. Up until about 1933. I mean, it wasn't a very happy time for to be gay or to be lesbian, which is the such stark contrast to the earlier part of the 20th century, where it really thrived and for women's rights as well. I mean, the suffragette movements that came out of the 19 twenties were not able to pick up again until the 19 sixties, because, of course you had the war. Then you had the period of intense social conformity in the 19 fifties, although by the late late by the late 19 fifties, a lot of women were getting fed up with this getting back [01:23:30] to normal business. And, you know, and began to, um, you know, because it was, like, sort of, you know, normal for him here, um, And began, you know, Betty for And others began to, uh, to write about this, but yes. Thank you for that question. OK? Yes. And then just, uh, try and pick up a bit of demographic perspective on this gender. Yeah, uh, difference. Mhm. [01:24:00] In the focus of the of the Nazis. What I was wondering about is do you have any information about the presumed numbers of gay men versus lesbian women at the time? Did anybody actually go out and try and count would have been presumed, uh, and again, or did they just simply presume like the, um, apocryphal story of of Queen [01:24:30] Victoria? Uh, that's impossible. Yeah. Um, yeah. Well, were there any efforts and were there any? Um, yes, well, the ones that I gave you for gay men, I think are the most accepted there. But what were the female? The female? The record is so incomplete. I mean, I don't think that was Yes, it didn't exist. We have, Yes. I mean, there are I mean, people like [01:25:00] Claudia Shot and others have, but because there was no specific group with a specific marker or triangle or whatever, that was lesbian. It's very difficult to, um, come up with exact numbers because the asocial group with the Black Triangle included people with other infractions or other kinds of, um uh, sort of, um, difficult positions that they had in relation to the Third Reich. So it's very difficult to find the numbers and even the numbers for [01:25:30] gay men. You have to You're dealing with records that were very sporadically kept and not as precise now with with regard to, um with regard to Jewish victims. I mean, they were very, very precise, and the records were very, very clear for very obvious reasons. But this Yeah, and also because for so long it was ignored, as you know, seen as trivial or not as important. And it's only within the last few years that these testimonies have actually come up. Sorry, I I'm trying to focus on the difference. [01:26:00] The gender based difference of the Nazi policies Did they actually focus less on the women because they seem to be a non issue. Yes, yes, yes, they did. Unless for women it was unless they were overtly masculine or unless they deliberately, openly, overtly, um, sort of gave signs that they were lesbian [01:26:30] or that they were very much not invested in the gender norms that were prescribed for them. So whereas for gay men, even if they were discreet, they could still be They could still be prosecuted for lesbians if they were discreet. And the record shows that more lesbians than gay men entered into marriages as a form of discretion as well. So and also because, as the record reads from the Nazi jurists, that it was much more difficult to prosecute women because [01:27:00] they were felt to be naturally affectionate with one another, which was not, you know, time. I mean, now men go around hugging and kissing each other. But this is a very recent phenomenon that did not happen at the time. So So yes, as far as comparing, I mean, the numbers are much higher for gay men as we presently understand them. Just because the records for lesbians are very are very difficult to actually see who was persecuted. Definitely for being lesbian or for being a resistant [01:27:30] woman. It really depends how we define lesbian. Do we? Do we define it as Adrian Rich does in terms of both the affectionate political and and or erotic bonds that women share? The whole idea of a lesbian continuum which can begin over here with just women being affectionate and supportive with one another to the other side, where women are having a very erotic sexual relation with one another. And, of course, Adrian Rich says that most women, you know vary across various spectrums [01:28:00] within that continuum. Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. There was a hand here. Yes. First of all, Professor, um, A for being late. Um um, the thing is, I live in Christchurch, so I'm heading back to Christchurch tomorrow. I'm just wondering Question number one. Are you coming to? I am. Um um I'm coming to Christchurch on Friday. Yes, yes. At the New Zealand, [01:28:30] um, Institute for International Affairs on Friday and then on Monday. It's something at Christchurch, Canterbury, University of Canterbury on Monday and on Tuesday. Uh, second, I was born in Indonesia, and then I can say that. I wonder you check on what's happening now in Indonesia with regard to LGBT because yes, [01:29:00] yes, yes, well, it's a very similar thing. Many countries are are sort of cracking down on, um, on these sorts of. And this is also something that I'll be talking about in the other. You know, in my later talks this week, when I talk about more about the contemporary implications that how gender people, you know in sort of, as times become much more conservative, gender roles sometimes become much more much more rigid. And that because you cannot talk about sexuality without [01:29:30] talking about gender, because sexuality is policed through the policing and the shaming of gender so that you know the same thing sort of happens. And you know it's more or less, you know, getting back to very rigid gender norms implies getting back to very heteronormative forms of sexuality and other those who don't conform to those kind of to those kinds of. So we see it happening in other parts of the world. I think [01:30:00] in Uganda they were trying to reinstitute the death penalty for homosexuality which did not pass. But you can still get a life prison sentence in much parts. In many parts of the post colonial world, you have section 377 which came from the British colonial administration and still remains on the books today. The same number 377 not 175 but 377 which remains in many of the former British colonies today as [01:30:30] a result, which is a huge impediment to education for HIV AIDS and for prevention, you know, and all of that, because the line of those governments is why should we give money and have development for criminal behaviour? And of course, we look at the rates of HIV aids, especially in, you know, in South Africa, in southern Africa, sub Saharan Africa in general, which the rates are staggering. People like my students, tend to think, Oh, it doesn't matter, you know. And there's this whole sexual promiscuity [01:31:00] going on now amongst young people who don't use protection and oh, well, we'll just get our medication and you know if anything happens. But of course, those medications are not available in many parts of the developing world. They're sold at the prices that exist in the West, which is, you know, almost a person's entire annual salary. So we still have. We must not be complacent about any of the of the victims of the Holocaust because these things are by no means temporary aberrations. Was there a hand at the [01:31:30] back? And then how much time do we have that? I think we have time for one more question. And I think Oh, yes, yes, of course. Yes. OK, I think somebody here was having, and then I saw some more hands. But maybe we could talk afterwards. Yeah, first of all, thank you very much for your time. Um, my question is about particular terms and perceptions around this. Now, we've [01:32:00] talked about gay Holocaust victims, and the inevitable implication of that is of a minor tragedy, inadvertent comments, which is somehow a minor tragedy in which is somehow tacked on to in a much more significant and broader tragedy, namely the destruction of the jury. And I'm talking about perceptions now [01:32:30] if I use the term Holocaust literally burned off from which I can say is a morbidly inappropriate metaphysical metaphor. Uh, I am potentially talking about not just Jewish victims of Nazi genocide, but gay people as well. If I talk about which is my preference as a Jew, I am very clearly talking about the extermination of European jury. But I am not talking about [01:33:00] genocide practise against gay people anymore that I'm talking about the genocide of Russian prisoners of war or be, or Russia or gipsies. My question to you is this is Have we not reached a time where we need a name to to designate to specifically identify this catastrophe is a distinct and unique catastrophe [01:33:30] which is interrelated and interwoven with all of these other Geno. Yes, If yes, If we can find a term that specifically identifies what you're saying should be identified and not be separated from or ghettoised from the larger picture of you know of the Holocaust and you know, the whole historical period, Then I would say yes. I mean, there have been some terms put around that I don't think are sufficient like Holocaust [01:34:00] and, you know, et cetera. And I think it is a problem of language because language is really you know, what influences thought and there are This is still another gap. I mean, I remember reading French philosopher Francois Leotard, who writes about the which is that for which there is no terminology that for which there is no language. And he uses that he bases that in the Jewish victims of Jewish survivors of the Holocaust who [01:34:30] simply could not articulate what they had witnessed in the camps and survive because there was no language for it. And I think that is very instructive, because how do you find a term? And eventually, of course, language was found and, you know, and testimonies came out and so on, so it doesn't mean that it's impossible. But it's really an arduous task because you want to name the specificity of all of this and you don't want to completely [01:35:00] separate it. But on the other hand, you don't want to completely void it of any particular identity, and it's it's very I don't have the term, I mean, but I would be very interested in one. I think it's something that we need. We have to realise that this work is never finished, that it goes on that it's a process and that we need to continue to be thinking you know about this? It's the thought that keeps all of this. The thought processes, the discussions, the deliberations, the arguments, the disagreements [01:35:30] that keeps all of this at Holocaust studies very much alive. And the idea that we still there's a lot that we still don't know. And there's a lot that we need to search for even such basic terms as, you know, the ones that you're that you're raising. I mean, this process very much goes on. I'm sorry, I don't have a precise answer, but I very much agree with the issue that you're raising. Um, should should we break up? I'm I'm having so much time. I mean, you know, I'm just [01:36:00] not watching the time, so I'm glad that, um but first of all, thank you so much to Professor Sperling. If you haven't already on your way in, Signed in. Um, this is one of really fantastic events that the Holocaust centre hosts. We have regular lecturers [01:36:30] coming from overseas, so, um, please make sure you sign up. If you'd like to do give a donation, that would be wonderful. There are some refreshments in the back, and, um, in this building is the Holocaust Centre of New Zealand. We're open from on Sunday to Friday from 10 a. m. to 1 p. m. You can have guided tours from volunteers and if you'd like to come and that time doesn't work for you, you can email us at info at Holocaust centre dot [01:37:00] org dot NZ and we can arrange a time for you to come. So thank you so much. Again. Thank you to Michael Clements for all the tech help and today for the opening. And we hope you have a wonderful day and.

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TITLE: Part 2 - Opening ceremony at Parliament - Wellington Pride Festival 2016
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Adrienne Girling; Antonia Watson; Bella Simpson; Celia Wade-Brown; Dana de Milo; Des Smith; Fetu-ole-moana Teuila Tamapeau; Georgina Beyer; Grant Robertson; Karen Harris; Kassie Hartendorp; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Rawa Karetai; Tabby Besley
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Adrienne Girling; Amanduh la Whore; Antonia Watson; Bella Simpson; Bill Logan; Celia Wade-Brown; Dana de Milo; Des Smith; Fetu-ole-moana Teuila Tamapeau; Georgina Beyer; Grant Robertson; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); InsideOUT Kōaro; Karen Harris; Kassie Hartendorp; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Member of Parliament; Rawa Karetai; Tabby Besley; Wellington Pride Festival (2016); agender; asexual; biphobia; bisexual; demisexual; gay; gender fluid; genderqueer; homophobia; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; intersex; lesbian; non-binary; pansexual; queer; straight; trans; transgender; transphobia; youth
DATE: 5 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the opening ceremony at Parliament: remembering the Homosexual Law Reform era - 30 years on. Note a number of musical performances have been removed from this recording.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: The wonderful Dana, Dana and myself. We were in a show that Phil wrote, and I'll tell you what. I had some tales to tell. Dana's even got better ones. How you love? Just just That's alright. I'll drop my gear occasionally. Lovely to see you. Lovely to see you. Thank you very much. OK, [00:00:30] I'll present to you. Thank you. Right. Cure everybody. Um, as you've just heard My name is Dana Demilo. I can only I I was not here for law reform. I was already in Australia. I ran away. Um, times were so tough. Um, I went to school in the forties and fifties. Um, I was beaten up because I am who I am, and I've never been any different. So of course I stuck [00:01:00] out like dogs watch names. So and I was 5 ft two in the So you can imagine, you know, um but then I I ran away in 1960 from from home because I never thought my parents would. My mother would accept me and my father had passed, not just the year before. I never thought my mother would accept me, you see, because that was the only thing that I got a hiding for, that she really gave me a hiding all the time for dressing up and being who I was. [00:01:30] And yet the rest of the family I had no brothers and sisters, my aunties and uncles and everything all had wardrobes for me, you know, with ball gowns and wedding gowns and everything. Everyone accepted it except my mom. And later in life she told me the reason why she knew nothing. We're talking fifties and and obviously I was Trans, you know, And she said, The thing is that you and I forgave her immediately. She said, You no mother wants to see her child pointed at, laughed at beaten up. [00:02:00] And I said, Well, Mom, that's exactly what happened to me And she said, Yes, I know. Um, Fran had just said about, um, people calling, calling gay men. Um, paedophiles. They called us paedophiles. A guy got out of a car and ran up to me before the Cuban Mo was in and beat me, and he was beating me, and he's saying it's dirty. So and so's like you that interfere with my young brother and all I could think of to answer was, I want to be hurt, not to court. [00:02:30] And he was so shocked at what I said that he stopped beating me up. But that's all I could think of. You know, because young boys don't don't interest people like me. You know what I mean? Um and I I was always harassed by a police sergeant and he did nothing, but And I never knew too many years later that he also used to pick on other people I knew and harass them. Every night he would pick me up and he would say, Get in the car. And I'd say, But why? [00:03:00] I've done nothing. He'd say, Get in the car now. And I said, But I've done nothing wrong. If you don't get in the car, I'll arrest you for hampering a policeman in his line of duty. And then he would make the the driver drive off at, like, 80 miles an hour. And there was no no seat belts. And he knew your little Achilles heel because he was such a nasty person, you know? And he knew I hated speed. Unless I was in control of it. It would speed all around, and then he'd drive into and make him drive into an alleyway, turn on the lights, [00:03:30] and then he'd say, and and you're in an alleyway and it's dark. And when you turn on the inside lights, the the the the windows become mirrors and he'd say, Look at you, you F! And this this and the words I'd never heard like shirt lifter and and I. I can't repeat the words he used to say to me, and then he would push my face into the into the, um, the window until I I swore or said Peg or whatever, and he gave. So then he'd take me down to Taranaki [00:04:00] police station and he would make me undress and dress because he knew it would embarrass me and the would just roll. He would make me dress and undress everyone that worked there. Then I would fall asleep and he would make it his business. When the next shift came on that he would make wake me up and do the same thing all over again. Um, he would wait for me to come out of the hotel and go into the toilet and arrest me for using the woman's toilet. I mean, there was a running joke that, um, Scully, [00:04:30] who was a well known um, judge That was very anti crims. And everything never put me in jail. And he called me into his camera once and he said, For goodness sake, Dana, he said, I can't keep finding you. You know, you're gonna have to stop going into the woman's toilet and I said, Where am I going to go? He said, Well, you can't go to the men's I said, Well, what am I supposed to do? He said, Maybe a bottle. I said in a miniskirt. And it was a bit of a joke because he he he he never, ever put me in jail [00:05:00] because he understood me, you know, Um, but I, I I'm I'm just one that was treated like that. We all come from one place. We all walk different roads, but we all end up in the same place, and we are all we are all family. And I'd like to now introduce someone that was a trail blazer, um, into the Parliament and a mayor and who came along just as I left, and she can talk more about the law reform. Thank you very much for asking [00:05:30] me. I'm very honoured. Thank you. Um, my name is Georgina Baer. And, um, yes, I have walked these halls of fame, aren't they? Um Oh. [00:06:00] Halls of power, aren't they, Trevor? Um, homosexual law reform 1986. Well, in 1984 85 I had just moved from Wellington to Auckland. So I was busy being a drag diva at Alfie's nightclub in Auckland and the bloomers show. For those of you who may have come across us at that time, if you do it ages. You. Um why [00:06:30] I mentioned this is because any activism that I became involved with regarding law reform happened in Auckland because I was working for a trio of, um, partners who owned the Alfie Night Club. Uh, and namely, um, Brett Shepherd and Tony Kavi and his partner John. Uh, they owned Alfie's nightclub, but they also had a gay publication, which was rare in New Zealand at those times and for Fran and for Bill [00:07:00] and for all of the activists that were spearheading from down here, that kind of outreach was important When Fran mentioned about getting into the, uh, provinces and places like that. If any gay people were out there and had some sort of access to, um, a gay media, it would be out magazine. There was at least one other. I can't recall its name Publication Pin Triangle. That's right. Um, that also helped. But Bret Shepherd certainly, uh, became [00:07:30] a great, um, advocate in Auckland. So fund raising awareness raising rallies, um, anything he could do through the nightclub or the other businesses that were gay friendly, um, was very helpful in trying to bring the community together because we hadn't been a together community, rainbow community. Um, and, uh, but this one cause celeb was pushing people together to act cooperatively, regardless of differences of opinion, [00:08:00] because the principle was right. We need and must have, uh, equality and human rights. And this was a stepping stone toward it. So we did that in the nightclub scene up in, uh, up in Auckland. But at the same time, I also happened to be fortunately, working with one of our great gay filmmaking and writing icons, Peter Wells. And he and his colleague uh, Stuart May were making a short film as part of a drama series that was going on [00:08:30] television. Now, Not many of our real lives were expressed in television in New Zealand in those days, beaming into the households of the nation. But in this series there were at least two short films that were going to touch on a subject matter almost foreign and unheard of in New Zealand. One of them was a short film called My First Suit, which was about a young 14 year old discovering his homosexual tendencies. [00:09:00] That was fine. The other film was a short film called Jules Daal and Jules Da was a film about a day in the life of a transvestite and a transsexual. And I had the honour of playing the co-star role of Joel, um, in that film. And, um, it had an awful lot of trouble once it was about ready to go to air for actually getting on air, because the censor of the day decided that the subject matter was contrary to the public's good [00:09:30] taste, and therefore it held up an entire series of six short dramas that were going on our featured Sunday night drama slot on TV We had three channels in those days, and, um and, um so there was a great to do about it until I think Julian Mounter, who was the head of television or something at the time, came along and managed to get it to go on air. Why was it contrary to the public's good taste? Because the main characters in the short [00:10:00] film was a transvestite and a transsexual, and not one bedroom scene with sex involved happened in this film or anything. I mean, you would look back at that and think that that is ridiculous and just idiot these days. Um, in that film we managed to ad lib a scene that stands there, enshrined in celluloid to this very day and [00:10:30] which, uh, uh, the two main characters ambushed the Salvation Army, who were marching down Queen Street to go and have their prayer rally in Victoria Street on a Sunday night. And, um, me and uh, my co-star dashed out in front of this is a director's instructions totally offhand and and and lib rushed out in front of them and mockingly marched down Queen Street in front of the Salvation Army with [00:11:00] all their you know, tram, You know, tambourines going and the hats and the trombones and everything like that. The sergeant of the Salvation Army was very displeased. And we had words with Peter Wells, the director, um, about this and, uh, said they were going to be suing them. And you can't put this on TV and we'll have you, you know, we've got our eye on you. And then Peter asked us again at if we could just go and stand so we could get a cut away shot. Um, So, um, for us to go, me and Mandy to go and stand next [00:11:30] to the Salvation Army while are having their prayer meeting, which we did mockingly standing there, you know, joining them. So this was our little protest in the film that lasts to this day to remind us of those who were a Guinness and a Guinness Badly. And, um, also finally, in the last shot of that film, uh, Mandy and my character walk away from the camera, and the director instructed me to just ad lib a few lines [00:12:00] to sort of wind it up while walking away into the distance so I couldn't help but say to my co-star in that scene, Have I ever told you about the time I met this guy called Norm Jones? He was down on the street and got that little dig in there because Norman Bone Jones was a vehement opponent of homosexual law reform, along with Jeff Bray, Brook and the Labour Party, who I later served in the caucus with for a while. And I think I softened old Jeff down [00:12:30] by the time he retired. Um, so I'm being given up, uh, the wind up and there's an awful lot that we could, uh, talk about. But suffice to say that the opportunities that opened up to all of us, but certainly the likes of me in the years to come from the beginning with homosexual law reform and the vital and important human rights amendments in 1993 that then became all inclusive, assisted me greatly [00:13:00] to, um, seek out a career in politics at local government and central government level when they presented themselves. And although I had to deal with an awful lot of, um, you know, transgender transsexual sort of stuff me along with my very colourful past, Um At the end of the day, we have noted since homosexual law reform that while there is improvement to still come, [00:13:30] uh, that we have an attitudinal change in this country where we have won the hearts and minds of fair minded New Zealanders. And Lewis's marriage Equality Bill certainly showed us that. And that was only a short not even 10 years after civil unions and the resurgence of all that venal rhetoric that we heard back in the time of law reform. Uh, we've nailed it to people and winning respect in this country, and that's [00:14:00] what we needed to earn. And we have earned it very well. It was helped along at the time, coincidentally with law reform, that HIV and AIDS was, um, succumbing to the world. And we were having to take that on and the way the gay community cooperated, uh, with the non gay community in this country to address that issue, which was of some, uh, vital importance to all of us, helped us share the respect between each other and learn a hell of a lot [00:14:30] more, uh, than people knew before about who we really are and who we are are positive participants in our society, and we must continue to demand the equality in this nation that this nation has given us to date. Thank you. Thank you. [00:15:00] Um, thank you. Thank you. No. You know, you know, you can have our show ponies and our kind of game, um, that are out here all the time. But people who are out and proud all their lives and certainly through all their working lives and who include us in that life, um, is [00:15:30] one way to describe our next speaker. Malcolm Vaughan has been an institution in the Wellington hospitality scene for more than 30 years. I have known him most of my girl life. Um, he knew me when I was a boy for a wee while, and we used to be flatmates together, and we have done some ridiculous things together, but we have always been strong together, and we've been through the ups and downs of the roller coaster of our lives [00:16:00] as rainbow people in this country. So would you please give a warm welcome to the lectern to one of the greatest men who have, um, helped our community through fundraising through support through a advocacy through visibility and through providing us venues. Where can we can be who we are? Welcome, Malcolm Vaughan to the lectern. [00:16:30] I know what I can tell you. She's a pretty hard act to follow. She really is. I always said earlier on I was telling somebody earlier on this afternoon that, you know, Georgina is a great speaker, but she's one of those ones that you need to give her a microphone with a cord on it so you can fucking pull her off stage. I'm supposed to be standing here this evening telling you about, um, what it's my life has been, like with hospitality and and providing for the gay community and paying acknowledgement [00:17:00] to, um some people that are no longer with us tonight. Uh, I I've slightly done a little bit of a dire drive from that. I was going to speak free heartedly as I. I thought it would be more natural. And then I got to work this afternoon, and I, uh I thought No, no, I better write down a few notes, so I have seven pages of notes. OK, but I'm a little bit older now, and I thought Well, I'll just write big. So I don't have to get out my reading glasses to show my age 30 years of law reform. Who would have thought? I never [00:17:30] thought that I would see exactly where we are today. Growing up in the valley as a young teenager and going to one of the roughest schools tied to college and knowing that you were different was not easy. It was not easy. It was not easy at all. Homophobia was prevalent. There was one thing wrong with me. I liked boys. When I turned 15, I rocketed out of school and hit the bright lights of Wellington. My life [00:18:00] changed really, really changed. There were no nightclubs, no gay venues, nothing like that. There were places like the bistro bar and the tavern bar, and we used to do ourselves up. So we could, uh, sneak in there. It was great. Tavern bar had two exits. You saw the cops coming. You motored through one and motored out the other. Then you ran through upstairs to the Toledo Bar, waited till the cops left, and then you'd go back down there again. I did a few jobs. I ran away to sea. When I was 18 [00:18:30] years of age and I joined the Merchant Navy, I learned a lot. I learned a lot about myself. I met a lot of people of my ilk that were the same as me. Eventually I came ashore. I worked with a fantastic boy called George in the old Royal Oak Hotel. At one stage, George was a night porter, and I was the waiter in the oaks coffee shop. We got on fantastically we lived with, uh, the D SI should say of the coffee bar. Carol [00:19:00] and a, uh, male dancer and stripper Reon. We all lived together up in, uh, Buller Street. And, uh, George and I after work in those days, it was, uh, 11 o'clock closing time. George and I would, uh, leave our job at the Royal Oak Hotel. We'd scooter scooter. Sorry. Up to, uh, Buller Street, where we lived quickly throw on the drag, the hot pants to hold next to high heels and down to Carmen's down on Vivian Street. Georgie scored a job, and I'll never forget it. [00:19:30] Her first gig was wearing this yellow and black Malina Dietrich dress. She hated it. But she soon became a star there so everybody would go up to the club exotically and down to Carmen's. Our lives changed dramatically, eventually discovered there was a place, a place for people like us. And that was the Doring Society in Lampton Quay. Amazing place. A group of men got together. They opened up a gay club. Very discreet. Men only [00:20:00] unlicensed opened at 10 o'clock at night. $4 to get in the door, single zoning and beer from the fridge. Every member paid a membership per year. We all had a key to get in the door. We climbed three flights of stairs. Then we had to bang on the door or ring the bell. The curtain would come back. Oh, yes, you'll remember. You can come in. We had a great time. The club got raided quite a bit by the police, [00:20:30] unlicensed, but it survived over the year it grew, we moved to street. It was fantastic. It was surviving well. And as Georgie mentioned then Elie came to town from Auckland and opened a Elie's Night club in Wellington, Wellington's first official legal gay and lesbian nightclub, something that was dedicated just to the gay and lesbian people. It was just for them and about them. And as Georgie mentioned, she had the fabulous bloomers review [00:21:00] in Auckland. Brett, be Shepherd, Tony Kalevi and his partner, John. They would fly the girls down. They gave us a space and a place to be who we were. It was fantastic. It was really, really fantastic. Suddenly I felt I had a place I belonged. I belonged in society, our society. We had somewhere truly tremendous to go. Somebody actually cared about us. [00:21:30] Homosexual law reform, gay liberation. It was all raising its head. Homosexual law reform was going. Franz was in Bill Logan. Fantastic gentleman who worked so hard with Fran made it possible for all of us he would organise every meeting. Norman Jones. Jeffrey. I remember going out to, uh, Knox Church in Lower Hutt And the hatred these people were supposed to be Christians. [00:22:00] We were the scum of the earth. Kill a queer for Christ. Kick them back to the gutter where they come from. They were the war cries. It was horrible. It was not a nice time to grow up of this bill. And all of these people that put this bill together work so hard. Fran Wilde. Gavin Young Pink Triangle was on the scene. Trevor Mallard. All of these fantastic people that gave us an opportunity or sorry an opportunity and made it possible [00:22:30] for all of us to be where we were today. People by, uh, like Alison Laurie, Paul Logan, Ewan Painter Graham Russell, who was working on it full time, unpaid. Where would we be today without these people? These were the dream Weavers. Tony Kavi, Britt Shepherd, his partner John, Phil, Logan and Laurie. All of these people. You and painter. Where would we be today if we didn't [00:23:00] have these people? I can honestly say, as a young man growing up, I learned a lot. I thank you for everything that you've done for us as gay men. I thank the lesbian community for standing there and being behind it and helping us to get where we were. We were there to get us where we wanted to be. Des has been mentioned. Was running hug heterosexuals unafraid of gays? I've got to tell you right now, I [00:23:30] did have my suspicions about Des. I thought if he doesn't come out of that closet soon Nanny is gonna get him first. What I'm really trying to say is that we have lived a hard life. But it's been fantastic to get where we are 30 years later. And we would not be here today if it wasn't for all these dream weavers, the people that made it possible. And I really would like you all [00:24:00] to put your hands together and thank this amazing group of people. My husband and I and I have to apologise. Uh, er Scottie couldn't be here tonight. He said we have to have a function back at the bar which is involved with the Comedy Club. And so he had to shoot away for that. So I do apologise for that. He made sure he said, please apologise for me. And I said, Yes, I will. So we have done that, and of course [00:24:30] you are. I'm gonna get a plug in here. You are all invited back there later on. We've got a fantastic nice little DJ downstairs all the way from Korea. He's absolutely beautiful. He came to us in the bar and said, I play in gay nightclub in Korea, and I want to play in your bar. I play for nothing. And I mean, nobody plays for nothing. Nobody works for nothing. And on that, I mean everybody. Every one of you, every one of you. You all worked for nothing. You made it possible for us [00:25:00] to be who we are today. And now society has changed because of your hard efforts. Where would we be today without our dream weavers? Thank you, Alison. Thank you, Larissa. Thank you, Georgina. Thank you, everybody. Fran. Gavin! Bill! Thank you. Thank you for your time, [00:25:30] My loves. I would like you to give a huge round of applause for our next guest speaker. Cassie, can we do that? Where are you, Cassie? So Cassie is part of our new generation of gay community. She's gonna give it a little, which will only actually be five minutes. Exactly. Thank [00:26:00] you. And is coming as well. Ladies and gentlemen, they are the makers and shakers for today. Huge round of applause for our youth. [00:26:30] [00:27:00] I just want to start by greeting our land here of I want to greet this house. I want to greet the people of this house and the of this house as well. I want to. I want to greet everybody who has already passed at [00:27:30] everybody who has come before us. I want to. I want to greet everyone who is here today and everyone who you bring with you into this room here. Thank you. I want to thank the organisers and I want to thank all of the people who have we have heard tonight already. My name is Casey, and also I want to acknowledge that, um I am speaking here tonight with who, um might have been next in the programme, but actually, we are are joining [00:28:00] our here today, So I guess the concept for what we were speaking because I it's quite intimidating. Coming up in the space in front of all of these amazing people have paved the way for where we've been and me standing here at 26 and not even being alive when this happened. I think you know, that's quite an intimidating thing to do. One of the things that we really thought about and what we dream and we what we drew a strange inspiration from was the Octopus, actually, [00:28:30] and it's quite relevant because do many people know of the story of and right So in actually travelled from Hawaii following a a giant octopus who had grieved him and followed this octopus, or all the way across the Pacific Ocean. And then it was his partner who then said, Oh, [00:29:00] the land of the long white cloud, A woman who named this beautiful country of ours quite important. Now, this is just one story. But what did happen is that this giant octopus, there was a showdown. And across all of these different places, from Castle Point from to the Cook Strait and finally the battle took place at the top of the South Island in. So I just want to acknowledge [00:29:30] that we're not for that. We're not for that Octopus then wouldn't have made the journey and brought many other of his here, um, to settle on this on this land. So I wanted to acknowledge that 000, [00:30:00] 00! See, Oh, love Oh, love this song that we are singing This chant, which is a [00:30:30] chant, is talking about building a fire on an octopus. Actually, if you want to know more, we can tell you later, Um, and what we want to talk about here today is building a fire. So right now we know, even though there have been people who have traversed across difficult, difficult times, we still feel like there is a problem that run runs deep within our society and deep without our communities, and we still feel it. We feel it in many different places. It is multifaceted, [00:31:00] like the Octopus it is about teen suicide as it is about it, is about racism. It is about trans people within our prisons. Still, to this day it is many, many things, and we want to light a fire to illuminate that. So when we can see the problem, we can start to solve the problem. [00:31:30] Low A for Alpha I Oh, [00:32:00] as Elizabeth and many before us have told us, we must acknowledge that our Pacific and indigenous peoples have lived in these islands for many, many years before us, we have existed forever. We have existed before Europeans colonised our lands and made laws that then said we were not right and that we are unnatural. We cannot forget where these laws have come from, but we know that in our hearts and our minds where we stand. We are [00:32:30] right and we are correct And what we continue to do last week, I must acknowledge that one of our young people who, um who would could have been in here in this room today passed away due to suicide. This is not something that has just finished, and we leave as many people have mentioned here today. So I think it's really important that us as Pacific peoples, as indigenous peoples continue to come together and to build build so we can illuminate what we're doing. And we can work for a better world. [00:33:00] What? Oh, yeah. Oh, what a you Oh, what's it left you a move. What we are saying is that there is a fire, [00:33:30] there is a distant fire and there is a fire that is still burning within many of us. But we want to say we can't just be afraid of that fire. It hasn't at the good, and it hasn't at the bad. So just like when The Octopus came over here, it was, of course, a bad thing that was going on. But at the same time, it was a good omen that brought people over to our country here today and continued to pave the way for what the that we have. So what I'm we want to do [00:34:00] here today is we want to offer this fire. We cannot hold the grief of our communities, our pacific and our indigenous communities any longer. And what we want to do is we want to pass it on. And we want to leave that here. And it's nothing to be afraid of. It's OK, it's fine. But we want to continue to work together to keep illuminating and in the end of the day, make this place a safer place for our people. [00:34:30] Why are you what? What? [00:35:00] I would now like to introduce Bella Simpson to come up. Um, I've known Bella for quite a few years. Um, she's an amazing young human being who is creating real change [00:35:30] within her communities. Um, she I don't want to get into this whole brave and courageous people. However, I think that Bella absolutely fits within this bill, and, um, I have a lot of love and respect for her. Hello, everybody. Um, my name is Bella. Um, And when I was, I'm 19 [00:36:00] when I was 11. I came out as a young trans woman, and, um so I've been through primary, intermediate and High School as a trans woman. So firstly, I just wanted to say thank you to all those that fought so hard 30 years ago. I wasn't born yet. It was like 10 years before I was born. So it's a while ago. Um, it's really awesome that we can come together and celebrate such great things as a community. But it's also important to remember that this isn't the end of the road. We need [00:36:30] to remember those in our community that don't get a voice whose identity is often ignored. I could stand here for hours and list off identities that we haven't even mentioned this evening, but there just isn't enough time. I've already been asked to condense my speech, but you know that ain't happening. Um, so the one community that I do worry about because I'm involved in it is the trans community. One in five young Trans people are attempting suicide [00:37:00] every year. These numbers are way too high. This isn't OK. These young people are not feeling safe, supported, respected or heard myself and a good friend of mine, have been working for the proud conference this week to get youth opinions on the serious issues within our community. We've run workshops in Auckland and Wellington and we did a survey online. We had over 100 responses, both online and in person, and I'd love to stand here and say that these young people are feeling great with no issues. [00:37:30] But they are. The amount of young people who feel like their gender identity is invalid and ignored is deeply upsetting. What's more upsetting is that they aren't just feeling this way at home or even in school. But it comes from the media and within our own community, young, gender, diverse People just are not feeling like they are represented in this community. It worries me because I've often had these dark thoughts feeling like my identity is invalid and being ignored, and that I'm being tokenized [00:38:00] by my school and feeling like I was the only trans person. But the truth is, I'm not alone. There are hundreds of young trans people who are finding the confidence to be themselves. I'm lucky. I've always had a strong support system behind me, but think of those who don't these days. When a young when a young person comes out as gay, there'll be some stigma and a hinted bullying. But most people will be like to contact. It's great and you're so brave. But when a young trans person comes out, [00:38:30] they're constantly having to educate others, including their teachers. They having to deal with questions that no one should have to deal with. They're having to be out and proud and fight the discrimination. But it's funny, really, because this week I had a bit of a breakdown because my entire Pride Week includes attending events and conferences to speak up about young trans people and the issues that they're facing. I have the support to get me through this, and I don't mind doing it. But as long as [00:39:00] in the future, things start to change because it isn't fair that we keep putting all this responsibility onto our young trans community, and it makes it sound like it's just me. But the reality is just about every young Trans person feels like they have to do this, and this is a huge weight. They shouldn't have to carry and I think it all really hit me when I saw my endocrinologist in January and he said to me, I'm really sorry you haven't been able to be a normal teenager And that took me by surprise because I never thought about it like that over the school [00:39:30] holidays when I was younger, the other kids in my class would hang out, go to the beach, have sleepovers. I'd be off to a or a conference or running a workshop, educating others just, you know, simple teenage things. But as a community, we have a responsibility to change this so no one else gets left behind. Like what Leo said to Stitch and Lilo and Stitch, Hanna means family family means nobody gets left behind. But it's enough for me and someone who's done some really amazing work and has been [00:40:00] recognised by the queen is Tedy for setting up, um, inside out. She's a national coordinator and she's been doing some really amazing work, so I'll pass it over to her. Um, and I'd also like to acknowledge all of those who have gone before for us who have paved the way for us all to be standing [00:40:30] here celebrating the 30th anniversary of homosexual law reform in a I feel so lucky to have been born in the nineties after that bill passed and to have grown up in a time, um, where people in New Zealand are free to live out their relationships openly free of that legal persecution. And I'm really, really grateful for that. And for all the stories that have been shared tonight, which I think, um, especially us in the younger community, we don't get to hear those. So it's just incredible to have the opportunity to really hear about you know, how this happened [00:41:00] and how we are standing where we're standing. I went to the first high school, um, that we're aware of in the Asia Pacific region to have a Queer Strait Alliance group, and that completely changed my experience of understanding my sexuality and being able to come out and be open about it, because I was an environment that, for the most part accepted my kind of diversity. So now I work for inside out where our vision is to make sure every young person of a of a diverse sexuality, sex or gender in a has a sense of belonging and safety in their community [00:41:30] and school inside out on our team of volunteers work tirelessly to make change happen. As to other groups all around the country and in Wellington, we're working so that the young people growing up now don't have to face the same struggles that we did, just like many of our elders did for us. We want them to have a better. In the last five years since I've left high school, we've already seen huge changes. Almost every region in Aotearoa now has a Queer Youth group supporting young people in their communities. Half the schools in Wellington [00:42:00] and an estimated prob probably about 60 around the country have Queer Strait alliance groups working to create that support in their schools. Marriage, equality. Past work is being done in in Auckland at the moment which is hopefully gonna result, Um, in the first kind of trans health clinic in New Zealand. Hopefully that that will be the first of many, um, statistics on gender diverse people are starting to be collected. We might even make it into the census. Um, all of that stuff is huge, and it's happening in our lifetime, which is really, really exciting. But as we [00:42:30] know, it's not enough. In the last 10 years, um, there has been no change in relation to the amount of bullying young people of diverse sexualities, sexes and genders face in high schools. 10 years is a long time to see no change. One in five young people in our community are being bullied on at least a weekly basis, and in within that group, over 43% are actually receiving physical violence as part of that bullying. Um, and it's just really sad because those aren't just shocking statistics. [00:43:00] Those are real stories of young people that we work with, and largely in Aotearoa. It's young people that are supporting other young people, like others before me have said, and we're doing a pretty incredible job. But without proper support and resourcing, it's gonna continue to be a very slow change. We need a whole community approach to see things moving faster. I also want to take a moment to acknowledge a part of our community that hasn't been spoken about tonight. Um, with the exception of at the very beginning, [00:43:30] when Elizabeth acknowledged bi phobia in our communities. I wanna give a shout out to all those bisexual pansexual, poly sexual fluid, queer people, all of those who don't fit neatly into the boxes as straight or gay and lesbian that. Did you know that the first pride march was actually started and organised by their bisexual women in New York to commemorate the Stonewall riots a year later? [00:44:00] I'd love to hear the stories of bisexual people who were here, um, supporting homosexual law reform in New Zealand. But I don't know of anybody to acknowledge, because those Kate Jones those stories aren't being told. Mhm bisexual people or those attracted to more than one gender have been here from the beginning. Yet we still have to fight to be acknowledged 46 years ago. Since that first pride march and 30 years on from homosexual law reform in New Zealand, bisexual people are some of the most at risk and vulnerable people in our communities. Across the [00:44:30] gender spectrum, many facing high rates of discrimination, depression, anxiety, substance abuse and intimate partner in sexual violence. Bisexual people are too often erased and forgotten. When we talk about our rainbow communities, Biphobia is perpetrate perpetrated from people within our communities. This can look like denying by people access to spaces, questioning their identities and validating their sexuality and continuing to spread negative stereotypes. I think 2016 is the time to put an end to that and to [00:45:00] make sure those of us in the middle of the sexuality continuum are included. When you talk about homophobia and transphobia, we need to be talking about Biphobia, too, and it is a specific and different kind of discrimination. I wanted to thank the Wellington, um, bisexual women's group because we know that Wellington Pride is actually doing a great job of having bi visibility. Thanks to that group, there's a bi friendly picnic picnic happening next Sunday. There's bi films, research and workshops being presented in the Oceana Yeah, Human Rights Conference. It [00:45:30] makes such a difference to feel seen and have these actively included. But it needs to be an effort coming from our entire rainbow community, not those of us from this identity constantly trying to push our way. And and I think this really extends to other marginalised groups, too. Do asexuals, a romantic intersex or gender queer people feel included respect and part of pride part of our communities, I don't know. There is no pride for some of us without liberation for all of us, said Marsha P Johnson, one of the activists who took part in the Stonewall [00:46:00] riots. I think her words are still true to this day. It is important to come together and celebrate our successes as long as we're not forgetting the struggles, many of our rainbow communities are still facing and fighting as long as we don't leave them behind. I look forward to seeing where we are in five years time, another 30 years time, and I hope that we can say our community really did that together across generations, raising up our most vulnerable and fighting for their struggles, too. I would now like to invite Man Bruce [00:46:30] Mitchell to speak money is the founder and executive director of its the Intersex Trust A in New Zealand and one of a few international activists in the world. Money has been an incredible treasure to our community and has particularly gone out of their way to support our youth organisations. So please welcome man. Thank you. [00:47:00] I know it's been a marathon night tonight So, um, we're getting towards the end. It's a privilege to have my fellow Elga supporter board member with me and I'll introduce shortly to fellow human beings. It's indeed a great privilege and an honour to be with you all tonight. This country kid from the King [00:47:30] country, a small remote sheep and cattle farm in a valley called Yes, My name is Marie Bruce Mitchell. Yes, I'm an intersex person, and I'm feeling the responsibility for holding this tonight. I've been since my late teens. A queer identified person came out as a young teacher as a lesbian, and more than 40 years ago [00:48:00] I was at the time teaching up the river at would travel down the River Road to the then secret Greek meetings in at Terry and George's Place. I've been racking my brains. How did I even find the group? No Google, no Internet and homosexuality and, it was known then was a criminal activity. What I do remember is how wonderful and how important it was to find that group. [00:48:30] I felt like I'd found family. I remember the warm welcome I got there. I also remember going to functions in Palmerston North the cars splitting up, driving around the block, checking to make sure we were not being tailed. The fear, the pragmatism and the plain old fashioned guts that those meetings, support and social functions involved. In those days, I also remember, [00:49:00] and it's been referred to tonight the bigotry and hate that surfaced and was given visible voice during the time leading up to the passing of the Homosexual Law Reform Act. It was wonderful and slightly astonishing that tonight we are gathered here in the Beehive to map this historic event, to have an opportunity to reflect, to remember [00:49:30] all the people that were involved in the process of decriminalisation. So my own story. 20 years ago, 1996 I travelled to America to attend the world's first ever retreat for intersex people, nine Americans and myself representing the world. At that point, I changed my name to Marie was identifying as and speaking about being a non-binary queer, identified intersex person. [00:50:00] It was this retreat that people organised that gave birth to the modern intersex movement. Before I go further an explanation. What is intersex? Intersex is an umbrella term, describing the people with born with variations of internal and external sex anatomy, resulting in bodies that can't be classified as the typical male or female. We usually taught that sex is merely black and white, male or female. [00:50:30] That's simply not true. There are a lot of awesome grey areas in the middle that can make someone into sex prevalence one and 2000 live births, or to create a visual image, the same number of people who are naturally born redheads. As an aside, I had brown hair, and my three siblings and my mom all had red hair. For the last 60 years, people who are born and identified into [00:51:00] sex have been treated under a pathologize medical model that sees the world in very black and white. No grey ways, a model that is seen as sex and our bodies normalised with surgery and all the use of hormones. For many of us, this model has been profoundly traumatising. Our efforts to significantly change this medical model have thus far been futile. This despite a constant self [00:51:30] narrative from intersex people right across the world of the damage and harm this model does to us humans to our families, the international intersex movement had a major step change in May 2013 when the world's first international intersex organising forum took place in Brussels. The historic event was brought together 24 activists representing 17 [00:52:00] intersex organisations from all continents. The event was organised and funded by the International Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual Trans and Intersex Organisation. The forum agreed on the demands aiming to end discrimination against intersex people and to assure the right of bodily integrity and self discrimination and self determination to put an end to the mutilating [00:52:30] and normalising practises such as genital surgery. These international gatherings have continued with the last and largest in Malta in 2013 and I want to take a moment to acknowledge that that shift change moment that created one in recognising intersect, adding I to the alphabet soup but more in its determination to not speak on [00:53:00] behalf of intersex people. Rather, it's commitment and strategy that determined that intersex people needed to speak for themselves more that the voice needed to be globally. Representative. We have tonight the executive director of Beat is Renato is here to attend the first [00:53:30] Elga Oceania conference which will open at on Wednesday evening. Renato, it seems very right that you're here to witness and be part of this historic human rights event. This evening a wonderful conference will be held at the Otago Medical School. Yes, the irony is not lost on me. Please go to the website and get more details of the conference. We're not sold [00:54:00] out yet. There is an opportunity for late registrations. I want to also thank you. My fellow Oceania board member. It was who had the mad idea to bring our conference to Wellington after the original proposal for Auckland hit an impossible roadblock. We had only eight months to organise the conference out of nothing. No funding, no structure. The fact we have done [00:54:30] so is solely due to the extraordinary efforts of the local LGBTI community and its allies. And I thank you so much. Finally, tonight is an honouring a celebration. But I want to make a plea that we use this event to launch a renewed figure and a termination to change the things that are not right in our community. I am a mental health professional. [00:55:00] If you look at the stats, even the most privileged members of our community do not reach health equivalency with their cisgender heterosexual counterparts. Reason. Discrimination, hate prejudice, Homo transphobia, minority stress. Does damage go out into the margins and into the less visible? The less recognised supported means members of our community [00:55:30] and the stats are horrifying. And our schools, yes, there is improvement, but we still have systemic rates of bullying and lack of support. Very few of our nation's schools are safe places for our community. Our youth suicide statistics are one brutal indicator. Our prisons in New Zealand have never been safe places for our community. That has to change. [00:56:00] We have significant access issues to safe respect or health care. In so many areas, we still operate on tiny intersex infants. There is still inadequate L BT training, diversity awareness, basic information and many of our major government institutions. In fact, in some areas in recent years I would suggest we've gone backwards. Yes, there have been gains, but [00:56:30] they're not enough. We can't we must not stop. The LGBTI community as a whole represents 12% of the population. We have nowhere near access to 12% of the nation's resources. The reform must go on while We have people dying members of our community with no sense they belong. Access to safe health, healthy housing, work, a sense of trust, a feeling [00:57:00] safe, free from violence, feeling heard, valued, respected or have any hope for a dignified, purposeful life and a sense of future. We have failed. It's not time to go home yet. There is lots to be angry about. Disappointed and frustrated. There is work to do. Lots of work to do. Thank you. [00:57:30] You've got to learn as you guys. So I will be very quick. Um, firstly, this is a an important occasion. It's 30 years and, uh, 30 years since the homosexual law reform. And I just really want to say thank you to everybody that's been involved in the community. I. I wanted to acknowledge the fact that we were gifted a fire. We really are looking at this conference to be able to reignite the fires and the passions and take their issues forward. [00:58:00] So my challenge is to the politicians is Please listen to what people are saying tonight and the future politicians in the room, because I'm sure there's plenty of you here. Listen to the stories come to the conference, join in the discussion and please be change agents for our community. Now, you know what? We've got some fabulous Two more speakers. Can [00:58:30] we do two more speakers? Can we do that? These people are the people you need to know. They've got all the money in the world. They're the ones that have stepped up graciously and supported Wellington Pride Week. They've supported the the festival, the parade, our little as they say in French. Thank you. Ladies [00:59:00] and gentlemen. I would like to introduce you to the lady that's speaking on behalf of a NZ. Where is she, my loves? She's gone home. She's gone out to have a cigarette. Nope. Here she comes. Big round of applause, My love. This is Antonia Watson. She is actually my stunt double in the next Zena once a warrior movie. As you can see, we're both blonde. We're both size [00:59:30] 10. Thank you, Andrea. It it it's actually silver. Unfortunately for those who don't who don't know me, I'm Antonia Watson, chief financial officer of a NZ New Zealand, and I'm executive sponsor of a N Z's Pride Network. I'm very humbled and honoured to be here as we celebrate and reflect on this milestone. And I'd really [01:00:00] like to acknowledge all the incredible people who have shared stories tonight the courage, spirit and determination that you've shown as a as an inspiration to us all. I'd also like to acknowledge our host the Rainbow Parliamentary Network team out Wellington and Co-chair and festival director Adrian Girl and Co-chair and, of course, Fran Wild and all like her who have fought for fundamental human rights. [01:00:30] One of the reasons I was lucky enough to be invited here tonight is that we paid for the drinks. Unfortunately, they've been packed up, but never mind. But seriously, a NC has been a longstanding supporter of the pride community in Wellington, and once again, we're very pleased to be sponsoring out in the park. And we're also thrilled to bring back our fabulous GT MS for every [01:01:00] non a NZ customer that uses their card in a GTM, we donate a dollar to outline a nonprofit counselling service for people dealing with gender and sexuality issues. Last year we were able to donate more than $6000 which I think is great in a country where people will walk a mile to avoid other bank ATM fees like my husband, but I'd like to write a much bigger check this year, so please encourage your friends and family to use GT MS where possible. [01:01:30] And while our GT MS are a public statement of support of pride, a huge part of our campaign is actually about our staff and encouraging an environment where people feel comfortable being themselves at work. I'd like to make a very special shout out to our very own La Saint Redfern, who I can't see fabulous. Oh, another 10 yes, I'll just stand here. [01:02:00] It's a measure of how far we've come when I think about a NZ pride activities today. Thinking back 30 years, who would have imagined that the biggest bank in the country, a typically stuffy and conservative organisation, would have so many staff and their families marching in the pride parade? Or that they would turn ATM S into gay T MS or a NZ into gay NZ, or become a major sponsor of the famous Sydney Mardi Gras? And who would have imagined that gaining Rainbow Tick accreditation is now an essential part of HR performance [01:02:30] measures. Some people did imagine this. These things happen now because of those people, many of whom are here in this room who who bravely push for change and continue to do so today. So on behalf of a NZ, I want to offer our congratulations on your achievements. It's truly an honour and a privilege to be invited here tonight. And we look forward to working together with the pride community for many more years to come. [01:03:00] How delicious was she? Did you think she was actually me? You did, didn't you? Now you know another woman we should all be proud of. I stood very tall and screamed loudly and a little flea voice that only fleas could hear. Because I'm a lady, I would like to present to [01:03:30] you now our mayor of Wellington, she is now just to let you all know, just in case y'all don't know the mayor erected a rainbow coloured flag. Hold on, I'll say it again. The near erected a rainbow coloured flag. She did in honour of Pride Week. Ladies and gentlemen, be upstanding Celia Wade Brown Upstanding, please. Upstanding. [01:04:00] Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Parliamentary hosts former mayor and MP. I put it the other way round. It's great to to be part of something that was started so long ago, and it sort of just made such a difference in this city and this country. I'd also like to acknowledge, [01:04:30] um, Georgina had to go, But the fact that she was both a mayor, the first trans mayor and MP she was awesome too. So Kiwis and international activists, thank you for inviting me to be here. And, um, let's thank the rate payers for supporting, um, out in the park at the week long Pride [01:05:00] Festival and these activities. And thanks to my lovely staff, it's gonna sound bad. It wasn't a personal erection. OK, I have to thank the staff who hold up the flag on the town hall. We have a lot with flags we got, and it is a pretty welcoming city, but it's still not great. I was just reminded because [01:05:30] we do try to have, um, you know, the all gender loos. And I remember there was quite a furore about Oh my goodness, we're not gonna have dark and dangerous corridors, and anyone can go in without trying to be a sort of binary decider about where they're going to go to the loo. And even now there is a workplace in Wellington where the managers fairly, um, forward thinking, said, Well, these are everybody's loose, [01:06:00] but people have gone out and stuck. This is a male load. This is a female loath because they weren't comfortable with that kind of inclusion in what one might have thought was a reasonably progressive workplace. So I make it my point to go to the Tane side. Another little gender issue. But it's all symbolic. Um, what a around there was Don't believe everything you read, but what [01:06:30] a brow was about the traffic lights. Now I'm sorry, but, dear NZTA, I do not regard a Testero testosterone enhanced, very broad shouldered male stick figure as necessarily the only representative of the human shape. Um two it to actually get Kate Shepherd up was one thing. But we're now going for Carmen. [01:07:00] No, Sadly, the first design had a snake. And while NZT a may move a little about the human figure, they said no animals. So, um, we've got to do a little bit of a redesign there, but Those are the sorts of things that make it actually fun to do the right thing as well. And we have to have some fun. And that's one of the reasons that I just love [01:07:30] the fact that out in the park has expanded to the whole week and we're gonna have a lot. It's gonna be a lot of fun, a lot of dancing, a lot of singing and a lot of sequins. But there's some fairly serious things happening in this week as well, and there's a lot of struggles to overcome. Um, one of the things is, as Manny mentioned in particular, it's really sort of obvious for this country to condemn female genital mutilation. But [01:08:00] there needs to be the same outcry about forced medical medical normalisation as well. We are all different. We are who we are and we should be able to make those choices when we're ready and just to say Rawa and money also awesome job with Ilg A. We need to use our leadership internationally. It's wonderful that there's been 30 years of homosexual law reform here, [01:08:30] but there's still more than 70 countries internationally where they where it's still illegal, to be gay, and that's not good enough. And if we are the lead, if we're the capital of this wonderful free society and it's not that, you know, there's still a lot to do, we need to light that far. Thank you, Tabby. We need to light that fire internationally. We're not just the world's top dozen liveable city because we've got nice [01:09:00] view used in a reasonable economy. We are one of the world's top livable cities because we are diverse and because we love being diverse and because we're going to recognise and welcome that diversity. So be loud, be proud. And I declare the Pride festival officially open. [01:09:30] Do you know what I don't know about you all. But I'm clapping again. I'm going to have to send that, um, take myself to Thailand and get the finished product. Huge round of applause for our gracious, gracious mayor. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. The reason why I'm doing that is because I'm trying to wake you all up Now I'm going to introduce you to my [01:10:00] husband. He doesn't know it yet. We haven't canoodled as yet. Give me five minutes in a black clear charge looking like Beyonce. Ladies and gentlemen, Grant Robertson. If if I'm any any later home tonight, I'll be divorced by elf anyway. So you might be on, uh, Amanda. Um, I am the last person to speak before, um, Adrianne and Karen, the two chairs of of, um of the out wellington. Um, and [01:10:30] you've all been here a very, very long time tonight, and I thank you for your your fortitude, Uh, in being here, I just want to say three things. The first of those is that we do stand on the shoulders of giants, and we've seen that tonight. And and I as a person who was 14 years old when homosexual law reform went through the New Zealand Parliament, I was a terribly geeky young boy in Dunedin, and I cut out from the newspaper who voted for and who voted against the homosexual law reform bill. And I've still got [01:11:00] that piece of paper today. But for those who did support it to Fran, to Trevor to to bill to the whole team of people. Another heartfelt thank you on behalf of all of us. Uh, tonight. So thank you for for what you've done. Um, secondly, um, To take up the challenge of new generations, I want to take up, um, the point that was made very articulately, particularly by Bella that we are talking about communities and people in our communities who still need our help. And the challenge that is there for [01:11:30] all of us is to take what we've learned from the past and offer that up. And I really take your point, Bella, about being the person who always has to speak. Uh, we all have to share the fact that while we've made enormous progress in 30 years, there are still challenges to be met, still people to be supported. And as a kid community, we owe it to one another to be there for the next generations. And so, Bella, I wanna make my commitment. And I hope on behalf of others who've come before, as well. And then finally, uh, just to say [01:12:00] that it is a great pleasure to be in a city like Wellington where we do celebrate all our different communities. All the different people who are part of here, um, out, uh, out. Wellington has done a terrific job in pulling this together. It is a fantastic week. Please be a part of it. And please be a part of a city where we put above all other things our kindness to each other. I'd like to make that the thing that we do as a city, uh, that we are kind to one another to support each other And be proud of who we are as a city. [01:12:30] Now, ladies and gentlemen, because he said, be kind. I hope you're gonna be kind, Daddy. Just letting him know. Ladies and gentlemen, we have been privileged. We have created a historic moment tonight being part of the 30th anniversary for the remembrance of the Homosexual Law Reform Act. I'd like to take [01:13:00] this opportunity before I pass it on to the committee to thank my cohos cohorts is the cohorts cohos the cos the cogs Adrian and Marcela for putting this event together for doing the most amazing triple somersaults backwards and calling themselves Nadia comic while they're eating peanut butter and doing their nails. Huge round of applause for those two ladies, please. I'd like to take this opportunity [01:13:30] to thank everyone that walked before me so that I can be me. I'd like to thank Bella and our youth for showing me that I can be an even better person because they already are. I'd like to thank you all for your patience and your diligence, your honesty, in terms of coming here. To show that you care. As Grant says, let Wellington City be a city of caring. And as our gorgeous mayor has represented [01:14:00] publicly, she's here to support us. Let's be who we are meant to be. Ladies and gentlemen, we don't need Oprah Winfrey or Maya Angelo. We got our auntie here, Elizabeth. She'll tell us what to do. Ladies and gentlemen, I now hand it to the people that are gonna make this week fabulous to the committee to the out in the Park Committee, The Wellington Committee. Let's just meet the committee, shall we, ladies and gentlemen, [01:14:30] be upstanding for our committee that, um I just I just want to say that I am completely overwhelmed right now. Um, this has been a a few months in the making this evening, and I [01:15:00] am so happy that you stuck you stuck around until the end. I know we went over time, but the idea for tonight was first to launch the Wellington Pride Festival. To I thank Mayor Celia Wade Brown for officially launching just a moment ago. Um, but this year we really took on [01:15:30] sort of the the weight of this year. Um, Karen and I are the co-chair of that Wellington um Inc. Which put on out in the park and this year decided to put on this festival, Um, and also the Wellington Pride parade for the second year. And this is the wonderful members of the at Wellington board this year. We have so many other volunteers, Um, and Tim here, who isn't officially an at Wellington member, [01:16:00] has put together the entire programme for the festival. So he really needs to be acknowledged. Um, and but on top of just saying, Hey, let's have a festival. Let's open it. We just thought this year marks the 30th anniversary since the homosexual law reform was passed. It's also the 30th anniversary since the first gay and lesbian Fair that Des Smith [01:16:30] first organised to lobby against um the the law or to lobby for the law reform. And we just took the responsibility to really honour that and we really wanted to have a forum where we reflected on and remembered what happened 30 years ago and and prior. Um, but also, let's not forget that there are still many issues facing our community today, and so we just [01:17:00] really wanted to have a diverse representation of speakers, and I didn't think that any of them needed to be silenced or shortened. So I'm thankful that you've all stuck around to this point because we all needed to hear everything that they had to say, and they all brought different perspectives. And they are, you know, just many things that we need to do. But we also need to celebrate. We need to celebrate how far we've come. We have a nine day festival [01:17:30] coming up starting now, starting today, we have nine days of really diverse really, really weird variety of events because, yeah, when you're talking about the nine day guest home I love Yes. Could it have anything to do with this sitting on your have? I'm just so we've got a lot of events [01:18:00] going on in those nine days, Um, and the two other really major events that we're organising as a Committee are the Wellington Pride Parade and out in the park, which is the 30th anniversary event in the park next Saturday. And Karen has really been I've been the one doing all sorts of stuff for this opening ceremony, and I've been, you know, talking to the media and that sort of thing. But Karen has really been doing so in toilets. Exactly. So I let her to talk to you a little bit about the parade and the fair. [01:18:30] Thank you. Um, yeah, I'm not sure I can add much to what Adrian has said. Really? But we're really looking forward. Obviously, we've got the nine days of, um, lots of events over the festival week, but really, the out in the park fair is still very much the flagship event that was started 30 years ago. And we hope that we're still doing it justice now. So this year it will be in Waitangi Park. We aren't going to be rained off. And we have also got the parade, which we really, really want to see lots of you in this year. So this will be the first time for a number of years [01:19:00] that we've had such a large parade. So we're really looking forward to seeing you there next next Saturday. We've got a whole day of entertainment, seven hours of full entertainment, loads of stalls and just loads of general fun going on for the whole day. And really, I just want to thank all of these guys again who have worked so hard all year on getting the fair and the festival up and running for this week. So thank you. And [01:19:30] that's actually the last thing we're gonna say. Except let's all go to S and MS and have a party. And start this this festival. Please join us. Yeah.

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TITLE: Part 1 - Opening ceremony at Parliament - Wellington Pride Festival 2016
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie; Amanduh la Whore; Des Smith; Elizabeth Kerekere; Fran Wilde; Gavin Young; Jan Logie; Kevin Haunui; Michelle Genet; Trevor Mallard; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1890s; 1970s; 1980s; 2010s; Alison Laurie; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bill Logan; Elizabeth Kerekere; Fran Wilde; Gavin Young; Heterosexuals Unafraid of Gays (HUG); Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Jan Logie; Johnny Croskery; Kevin Haunui; Marcella de Tella; Michelle Genet; Māori; Parliament buildings; People's Palace; Rainbow NZ Parliamentary Network; Salvation Army; Trevor Mallard; Tīwhanawhana; Wellington; Wellington Pride Festival (2016); activism; bisexual; gay; homosexual; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; lesbian; takatāpui; tangata whenua; trans; transgender
DATE: 5 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the opening ceremony at Parliament: remembering the Homosexual Law Reform era - 30 years on. Note a number of musical performances have been removed from this recording.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hm. 55 out of my for that. Oh. Oh, [00:00:30] [00:01:00] [00:01:30] OK, [00:02:00] [00:02:30] uh, [00:03:00] [00:03:30] come up? Yeah, they told me Hello. Yeah, yeah, [00:04:00] yeah, we have that. [00:04:30] Hello? Ok, [00:05:00] we did. [00:05:30] [00:06:00] [00:06:30] Yeah, Yeah. [00:07:00] Go like way. [00:07:30] [00:08:00] [00:08:30] [00:09:00] Want it to be up here? Did he ask me? Did not go through me and no [00:09:30] courage. It takes courage and conviction, a sense of dedication and are wanting to change. 30 years ago in New Zealand, this happened 30 years ago in New Zealand. The homosexual law reform bill was passed. Congratulate [00:10:00] yourselves. My name is Amanda La, and I'm incredibly honoured. Privileged to be here to welcome you to the 30th anniversary of the Homosexual Law Reform Act. Tonight we have an amazing array of performers. And from what I can see, spring has certainly hit the fashion industry. [00:10:30] This is delicious. We have a collection of youth. We have drag queens gender illusionists. But most importantly, we have some of the members surviving 30 years to see what they did and how we use their manner. What we've accomplished in the last 30 years, [00:11:00] these men and women are here present with us. Can you imagine, 30 years ago, if I was to walk down the street, as did our sister Carmen. I would have been bashed till I bled Bleeding being the operative word, these men and women bled on the streets of Wellington to give us the freedom. I always refer to this statement. They walked in the shadows [00:11:30] so that I can bask in the sun and I applaud each and every one of them. Like I said, when I say that I'm grateful, honoured and humbled to be here to welcome you this evening it's meant so without further ado, I would like to now take this opportunity to introduce you to Elizabeth. Ladies and gentlemen, where is she? She's somewhere this year. [00:12:00] You please. Thank you. Uh, I thought I was later in the programme. So all of the thinking of all the organisers, the place in which we are will all have been done. Uh, I [00:12:30] to you all. Ah, so there will be speakers tonight. They will talk about law reform and talk about some of those historical things. And what I wanted to bring into the room then is around the and we would Yeah, let's just roll with this, OK? About the same time as law reform first swung into action, Uh, the term [00:13:00] was being promoted within rainbow Maori networks. Uh, we use today as an identity that embraces all of our diverse sexes, genders and sexualities. It is, however, a centuries old traditional Maori term. So claiming connects us to our language and our culture, our our ancestry and our our spirituality [00:13:30] and our connected our connectedness to all things in the universe. Art also reminds us that we have suffered a particular type of historical trauma brought to us by colonisation. The gift that just keeps on giving trust was established in Wellington in 2001 to provide a safe space for to live our culture in a way that honours our diverse sexes, genders and sexualities. [00:14:00] Our vision is a rainbow is forming in the sky. Our aims are to tell our stories, build our communities and leave a legacy. If we look to the Maori health model which was adopted by this government decades ago, envisage envisages Is that even a word? We have a vision of a world [00:14:30] that honours our our spirituality, where our sex, our gender and our sexuality is acknowledged as the gift that it is from our ancestors. It is certainly not something to be trifled with. Our our mind, where homophobia, biphobia and transphobia is not a constant assault on our sensibilities that limits our creativity and certainty of the future. [00:15:00] Our body, a world where our Children's bodies are not subject to surgical torture, to normalise them where our young people are safe from threats and violence in their schools, their communities and their places of worship, where every single one of us has access to whatever health care we require and that our elders may age gracefully, gracefully with the dignity [00:15:30] they deserve. Finally, we envisage a world with the families we were born into, and the families we create are places of love and support where we have healthy and happy relationships with the people we share our lives and our bodies with, and that's a revolution right there having a healthy, happy relationship. My partner in LA and I 24 years next week just say [00:16:00] I am the because of that where our communities and particularly this see a world where our communities can harness our collective wisdom and creativity to change the world around us. It does not seem to me to be too much to ask. So we're not We're not sitting around doing nothing. Many of you will know we do this. We are not a performance group. No one pays us to [00:16:30] come and perform. This is part of us making sure that the treaty is alive and well in our communities. Uh, that we support, uh, the organisers and provide the to create a safe space for all of us. But also, uh, we work with many community groups, organisations, government agencies and universities around a range of products to advocate for within the context of our wider range of communities. So we're involved in many [00:17:00] projects addressing issues such as primary health care, mental health and suicide prevention, secondary and tertiary education programmes, sexual health, sexual and intimate partner violence, housing and homelessness, sports and the arts. Throughout this work we do research, we collect data. We contribute to the production of of Western knowledge, Of course. Uh but we also contribute to a Maori knowledge base. [00:17:30] We help our people remember that discrimination against us may be part of Maori society. It is not part of Maori culture with so much to do and so few of us to do it models, relationship building and collaboration. We will put that to the test over the next two years as we develop a national rainbow strategy with the national strategy inside of that that reflects the needs and aspirations of all of our different communities. [00:18:00] Uh, I will be coming to a town near you to talk to you about that. Be ready for that. So in that collaborative and fully and treaty based spirit invites all of you all of us, to help create a rainbow movement that honours our ancestors, respects our elders, works closely with our peers and looks after our young people. Are you with us that [00:18:30] together, Elizabeth? Now we have members of the Rainbow Community, the parliamentary Rainbow community. You'll meet them in just a few moments, but let's give them a round of applause [00:19:00] for just being here with all this colour, shall we? [00:19:30] And while um Elizabeth, it may not have been scheduled. I think it's wonderful to place us firmly in a treaty relationship. As parliamentarians, we and the Cross party Parliamentary Rainbow Network welcome you to this place which of course, is on the land of and we work in partnership or aim to work in partnership with, um our treaty [00:20:00] partners in this place. Um, I'm Jan Logie. I'm a green Party MP and Co-chair along with the fabulous Louisa Wall of Labour and Paul Foster Bell of the National Party, um, of the cross party Rainbow Parliamentary Network with these other gorgeous members who you see on the stage, including David Seymour of the Act Party, Trevor Mallard of Labour, James Shaw of the Greens and your local [00:20:30] Grant Robertson of Labour and also of the Maori Party and quite a few others who were very, very disappointed not to be able to be here tonight. We're a new network. We're set up. Um, it's kind of like a queer straight alliance happening in Parliament, modelling ourselves on the leaders in our schools, um, to be be able to progress LGBTI [00:21:00] rights in this country to be able to advocate externally and internally for better policies and legislation to ensure the human rights and the vibrancy of all of the members of our community. And as we come today to celebrate 30 years in an extraordinary time and amazing work that was done by community and [00:21:30] parliamentary activists. We are inspired for that next stage of the journey of those whose work has not yet been done. And we are proud to stand here and welcome you to this place, your place, the people's house. And it's so wonderful to see it full of our people. [00:22:00] Our next speaker is a matriarch of our society. She's a super woman from 1986 and it's an absolute honour to be able to introduce this woman who is one of the main reasons why we're here celebrating tonight. 30 years later, if I say too much more, my I'm gonna cry. And [00:22:30] then my false eyelashes are gonna fall off. So, I I won't. But could you please join a huge welcome for Fran Wilde? [00:23:00] OK, I think that's enough. Guys Don't get too carried away. Um and, um, greetings to all you fabulous people here tonight. Um, 30 years I saw on the programme, we talked about the homosexual law reform era, which made it seem like, you know, about 500 years ago, actually, uh, but even 30 Seems [00:23:30] a long time. I was only 14 of course, when I was in Parliament. So you realise. And, uh, now I'm just about growing up. So, um, I guess the question is, how did it happen? Well, it was the right time, and it was the right parliament. And I do need to say that a lot of us joined the Labour Party in the, um, late seventies to get rid of Muldoon. And then when we got into Parliament, we found there were other things to do as well, so we got [00:24:00] rid of him. But there were other things. So when I was, uh, running in for the 81 election, I was lobbied by Tom McLean and others I think came with him and they said, Would you would you vote for gay law reform? And I, being a good Wellington Central liberal, said, Of course I would. And then they said, Well, if nobody else would sponsor it, do you think you would? And I young and stupid, remember, at the age of 14, said, Well, I suppose [00:24:30] so. Not having any idea what that meant. And so when I got in the first practically people to see me with the gay community like. OK, Fred, guess what it's all on. So the first bill we looked at was the equality Bill. Um, it didn't see the light of day, which actually is just as well, because I said earlier that was the right parliament. And frankly, a number of, um, younger MP S had come in in 81 and more in 84 and we had enough people [00:25:00] then to make it go through. I don't think I'm not sure we would have got something through in the 81 84 parliament. Um, So I wanted to start tonight. I've probably used nine minutes so far of my team by thanking in particular, the key people that I worked with because, you know, nobody does anything by themselves in this world, it's always a team. And this was the most phenomenal team. There were people all over New Zealand. I'm not going to actually talk about the people from outside Wellington because actually, [00:25:30] there were too many of them. But in Wellington there were a group that I worked with, and they came into my office at Parliament. I was the whip, and Mike Cullen and I were in the with the whips and we can and and they We set up a little kind of headquarters in the whips office, and these people were really the critical ones. Now I'll probably miss somebody out, but I just want to just mention a few names tonight of the people that I remember who were there all the time and who actually then went out and organised outside of parliament. [00:26:00] So there was Bill Logan, who was, um, a really Bill. Bill was a strategist and an organiser. You all know how poli political he is. So he was very helpful in that respect, Alison, Laurie, Alison was really important for us, too. [00:26:30] And you and painter I don't is you And here No, no, you and painter was really important. And then there were and Graham Russell, who I think worked full time on this campaign. And, uh, he was around a lot as well. He was much younger than two. And then, uh, we needed information. And Phil Parkinson, the librarian, was just so important for us. And David [00:27:00] Hindley and David, I recalled a lot of the writing as well. So there was. That was a really phenomenal team. It wasn't all, um ghastly. We had a bit of fun. And Des, who's gonna talk to you later? Supplied a bit of fun in the office and as did and, um Dez I remember when he came out, they said Des has got something to tell you. Desert arrived one in the summer, I think, and he was wearing practically nothing. And he was a builder. And he had a great body and [00:27:30] which he constantly displayed. And, um and one day he had to tell me something I thought, Oh, yeah, OK, I know what it is. And sure enough, he said, Well, I'm actually gay. And I said, Well, really Anyway, dear, thank you. Des was fabulous. Uh, and we did have a lot of fun as well as doing the hard yards. And this was a parliamentary campaign. There were two key people who ran. That one is Trevor Mallard who's here tonight. You're going to hear from him later. [00:28:00] We could not have got this bill through without he he was. And the other one was Ruth Dyson. I don't think Ruth is here tonight, but she Ruth Ruth, I was a single mother with three kids. And that was why I was a good bet, I think for doing the bill in the middle of the most liberal electorate in Wellington. [00:28:30] And, uh, I it was Ruth was staying with me. She and I shared this childcare, actually. And she also worked on the campaign, and she was phenomenal. So I just want to acknowledge her. And, of course, on the other side of the house we had Catherine O'Regan and Catherine did a great job organising as many as she could. I just want to lastly acknowledge my office, Um, the people who worked in my office, obviously Mike Mike Cullen, the whip who was very patient and carried [00:29:00] a lot of my work. I suspect during that period, um, and the Officer Marion Line and my P A who was just phenomenal and just and and we had thousands of letters. And guess what? In those days, computers were pretty new, so most of these were handwritten, and there was all the paperwork was much more laborious than it is now. And she just managed all of that and our little office assistant who had to be taught how to detect litter bombs in case some nut sent one to me. [00:29:30] So you know Well, they were great people and they worked their hearts out on this campaign. They didn't have to. They were doing it voluntarily. So, um, no. When the bill was introduced, and by the way that was somebody reminded me 31 years ago next week. The Evening post headline was gay sex at 16, right across the front, front of the of the evening post, and I thought, Oh, God, I was hoping for a little paragraph, you know that. But anyway, I thought, Well, that's it. And we [00:30:00] counted at that time and there was a bit of a convention in the house. Then I don't think it's there anymore. It was a gentleman's agreement. They don't have gentlemen anymore. Um, they don't. In fact, they got more women, which is great, but, uh, that you would always vote for a first reading for a bill, you'd always let it be introduced, and then it will be killed in the select committee. So, um, it went to the select committee and we knew we had about 20 people that would vote for it. We absolutely we knew. I can't remember the exact number. All my files were burned, by the way and that that, [00:30:30] um, fire in the Kilburn fire, uh, storage unit a year or so ago, which was a tragedy. But we knew we that the strategy was to get the electorates organised and get New Zealanders to give permission to their MP S to vote for the bill. So, um, the lobbying wasn't all in Wellington. We were very poorly organised it when we first introduced it. I have to say, um, but we got organised pretty quickly. The cities were good. They were obviously, um um the, [00:31:00] um, lesbian and gay community are kind of congregated there, but the provincial areas in the smaller towns were just awful. It was a scorched earth, and we had to give them help when they needed it. Um, it wasn't just the gay community. Um, many liberal New Zealanders helped us. They formed groups. We started an organisation called heterosexuals, unafraid of gays HUG. And we had a badge, a pink badge with hug written on it. And that was for them. So they they all that and that was great. And we [00:31:30] the idea was to give information. Gay men had been demonised as child molesters and the whole nature versus nurture debate raged. And, you know, all of this Old Testament stuff was quoted, and they're all depraved monsters they're going to watch out for, you know, have to watch out for your Children. We had to get information out there. New Zealanders had the stereotypical ideas of gay men, and they simply weren't correct. And so we needed [00:32:00] to get this information out. So we used the media. We used radio, we used talk back. We had ed articles, letters to the editor, lots of lobbying of MP S. We had a list of MP S. Trevor might tell you how many are in the end who we won't name them. Tonight we knew the ones we had to get. We knew the ones that were kind of on the verge, and we had to get them over to our side. We knew the ones we would never get. And being the parliamentary whip was very helpful because they often were able we were able to give them leave [00:32:30] the night that the bill was being debated, which was every Wednesday if you go. And in fact, we got a lot of them invited to do things on far ends of the country. So they couldn't get back on Wednesday night on Wednesdays, a lot of people were absent, and they always got leave when they asked for it. Um and, uh, basically, this was that I just travelled all around the country frequently and meetings and public meetings and small meetings and radio and yada yada. And so did Trevor, actually, [00:33:00] and some of the other MP S. They did some great work for us when we asked them to. They were there. Um, look, I don't want to go on much more, but there were 22 things I want to say which I think helped immensely and probably were pivotal in the campaign. One was the petition, and Trevor will talk a little bit about that. But when it was presented out here on the steps of parliament, they had the Remember the boys and girls brigade. I don't I think they're defunct now, thank goodness. But they had them in their uniforms. They had New Zealand flags. [00:33:30] Let's all vote for the new one team. Um, sorry, I know the Labour Party are, but I am. They had the flag, they had the national anthem, they had hymns and and it was really scary. And they had one box for every electorate with the name of the electorate, this is meant to scare the MP S and what it did was it scared New Zealanders because they'd seen this sort of thing before, either in reality or on the on the, you know, old news reels they'd seen it in in Hitler's [00:34:00] Pre-war Germany, and the Nuremberg rallies. The words were kept popping up all the time and people said, We don't want this in New Zealand. We don't want fundamentalist Christians demonising these people and blaming them for everything that's going wrong in our society. There's gotta be a better way for New Zealand. And and it was really interesting because a lot of the press gallery came into the office that day and said, Give me a hug, badge and put it on. And they were they were [00:34:30] journalists. They're all neutral, of course, but they they were sickened by this site, and that was a key thing. But even bigger for me was visibility of the gay community, and I just tonight want to finish by saluting the members of the gay community who came out during that period. Those men were criminals, and they have been persecuted in New Zealand for a a long, long time. And we knew that unless New Zealanders, other New Zealanders saw that they [00:35:00] had gay men living all around them, they worked with them. They were they played golf with them or tennis or rugby. Uh, they had, uh, sons. They had brothers and in some case, husbands who were gay unless people realised that gay men were just like all the rest of us. We come in many different sizes and shapes and inclinations, but we're all Kiwis. We would not win this. And there were some extraordinary brave acts by [00:35:30] gay men who came out during that time. And you could see people almost kind of hear the brains working amongst other New Zealanders. Ah, so and says gay. Wow, he's just like me. Absolutely. And that was really, really, really important. So I just want to, um, acknowledge all those men who did that. It was a really brave act, because if we had actually not passed the bill, they would have been in the most terrible situation. It would have been really, [00:36:00] really bad for them. They weren't the only ones. Of course, all of us women would have had a bad, pretty rough go if if we and and all of those other causes that we'd all espoused wouldn't have worked. But that was really important. So for the future. Look, we've had some great law reforms since then, and it's got SSA well done on the latest. We didn't get the, um, uh, human rights part of the bill through, uh, that was the insurance policy of some of the MP S. They voted against that. They knew they had to decriminalise, and that's gone through since then. Um, [00:36:30] but there's still a lot of issues in New Zealand, and I particularly just want to say I know you are all working on it, but I think the kids we need to look at what's happening to LGBT R kids. Uh, some schools are great, they're really safe, but others aren't. And I think that's something that the older people in the community need to focus on and make sure that those kids feel safe and are OK. And with the advent of, um, you know, the digital age and I just was growled at by Gavin for having a bit of paper and not using [00:37:00] my cell phone, but makes it much easier to bully. We all know about that. And so these kids really need some help. So just to, um, kind of wind up on that, really, that there is always more work to be done. So I'm to introduce the next person now. This person's father taught a, uh, a young lad called Trevor Rope when he was at school. And you know who Trevor Rio was? Trevor went on to be Calman. And so we are now going to hear from [00:37:30] Carmen's namesake, who was a key person in homosexual law reform. Trevor Mallard. I'm I'm told by my parents. I was named after an uncle and, uh, not after Carmen. Uh, but but some of my, um, earliest, [00:38:00] um, experiences, uh, with the, uh, LGBT community were, uh, with, uh, Carmen who, having been taught by my father, who went from being a teacher for a couple of years in to being a share broker in Wellington. When we walked up Willis Street, Carmen would always wave and call out and say, Uh, hello, Colin. Haven't seen you recently. And and for a very straight conservative share broker, he found that a little bit hard to take. [00:38:30] Um, and and, of course, um, with Georgina, uh, in front of me. Um, we in my generation there weren't really good nightclubs. Uh, in Wellington. Now, the balcony was the only place that you could go to see really good bands playing. And for me, I got educated there, Uh, including by, uh, by Georgina, uh, who was Who was one of the most wonderful and beautiful dancers you have [00:39:00] ever seen? Um, like, uh, most, um, straight males. Uh, the issue for me, um, was became a little bit clearer in 1975 when young, uh, had a had a bill. That was it was the first time that I can remember that the issue, uh, was there. And it was a bill in parliament to decriminalise with an age of 20 from memory. Uh, that lost pretty badly. Um, but it started people, uh, thinking, uh, from [00:39:30] an intellectual perspective, Um, I, uh, still have a friend, a good friend who's actually sort of relatively ill at the moment, who has never been able to tell me. I've known about it of his conviction, and it just it just seemed that for some of the generation just before mine, um, it was absolutely awful. It's [00:40:00] still not good. And it wasn't good at the time that the bill was being passed. But of the the the people, uh, in the 19 fifties and 19 forties in particular, their their lives must have been so shocking. And and people were so traumatised that they can't even tell their own friends of their convictions. Um, my my job was to do numbers. Um, I did numbers in a couple of ways. I'll talk a little bit about the bill itself, but, um, Fran referred [00:40:30] to the petition. Um, the petition, I think, had a face number of something like 600,000, 800,000. Sorry, 800,000 people on it. We'll see. It was, and it was frightening. And the Nuremberg rally is an understatement for what was happening out there. And the problem that we had was that many of our colleagues took the numbers that were being presented to them. Seriously. So [00:41:00] what? You know, we did what was logical. Uh, we went to the petition. We opened up the boxes. Uh, we ran through the sheets. I think we picked out something like one in 100. Uh, we looked for we looked for duplications, and we looked for obviously false names. And we did some electoral roll checking. And it was amazing how often Mickey Mouse had signed. And Karl Marx had some somehow come back somehow come back to [00:41:30] life. And there were there was lots and lots of handwriting on it That was off. Obviously from very little kids who would have had no idea. Uh, what what they were signing. And there was a lot of repetition as well. And and and, as I say, because it had the name and the address on, we went back and we checked the electoral role, and we knocked out about two thirds of the signatures. So what it showed was that there was just an enormous amount of of bullshit in [00:42:00] that, uh, and and and and behind it, um, I also did numbers, uh, on on the bill. and what I did. And it was completely un modern was that I had, um, list of members of Parliament and three felt pens and and, um, I sort of I sort of hate hate to say this green was a good colour. [00:42:30] Yeah, and and, um, blue was the colour for people on the other side. And yellow was the one sitting in the middle. And and we just had sheet after sheet after sheet because it wasn't just what was gonna happen right at the end. It was how we were going to get the bill through the parliament because there was not a majority in the parliament, a majority preference of the people who wanted to vote for [00:43:00] the bill to have the age of 16. We didn't have enough to get the numbers through. And what what happened in the end was there was a joint decision from people from who were very pro and very anti both to vote for 16. And the anti did it because they wanted the bill to be in its most radical form, that because they thought the only hope they had [00:43:30] of it failing would be if it went finally to the parliament at age 16. Um, sort of seems weird now that you know, we're talking about age equality, but it was a very real issue. And many of the people who finally voted for the bill actually preferred the age to be, uh, at 20 or at 16. So it was my job to to count the numbers up. We're expected to win by three. Um, on the night [00:44:00] of parliament at that stage of of 99 we actually won by five. Ian McLean, who was a very conservative national Party member who I don't think voted for any other part of the bill. He might vote at the beginning, but certainly through the bill hadn't voted for it. It is our understanding. It is my understanding because we were always told that we were going to get one extra by by Simon Upton. And it was almost like it was a proxy vote. Simon felt that he couldn't vote for the bill himself, but [00:44:30] he arranged for someone else to vote for it. And the vote, you know, the vote. The vote worked. There were also two, national party members, both of whom subs subsequently became knights, um, one of our realm and one personally from Her Majesty without identifying the two of them, both of whom had gay brothers but felt that they didn't or couldn't or were too scared to vote for [00:45:00] the bill, but they wouldn't have the bill fail. So what happened on the night, um, that the bill was finally going through was that those two men stood at the far end of the eyes lobby until we knew that we had enough votes to pass it and we could wave to them and they could go away. Uh, and they voted against it. Now, it's a sad situation to be in, but [00:45:30] for us, it was It was sort of like a little bit of insurance that was sitting there. Uh, that meant that the legislation could get through. Um, and I just I mean, I we polled in my electorate, it wasn't popular. Uh, about 2 to 1 against in the Hamilton West. The marginal electorate, uh, that I was in, um, it was a conservative provincial city, uh, and and, um, and people weren't very popular. And some of some of [00:46:00] the, uh, opposition was truly awful. Friends talked about what was out there. What I really hated was the bastards who would ring home and swear at my kids. You know, I had a daughter who at the time was four. In the end, we got the solution. The solution was a whistle. And when someone ran and said what was described to her as a naughty word, she blew the whistle in their ear. [00:46:30] And it was It was, you know, effective. But who would you know, who would ring and talk to a four year old like that? That But there are some other people with whom I disagree deeply, but I know, you know, and I know they were wrong, but I also know that they believed what believe their view. They weren't doing it for political, for [00:47:00] a political reason. It was a sometimes a religious view and sometimes a personal view. It was a long way away, uh, from my views, but they weren't Some of them weren't malicious. Um, one of those was, uh, Trevor Young, uh, in part of his seat, I now I now hold uh, Trevor. Trevor was like that. Never voted on the right side of any of it. He was constantly blue, uh, on my list, every [00:47:30] every vote. He he was on the wrong side of, um but what made it awful And that family, as it did in lots and lots of families, because families were split on this issue. Um, in in a way, which was awful was that his son Gavin was an activist. Throughout the campaign, he was one of the hardest workers [00:48:00] on the pro change side, and he did an enormous job. And he's the next speaker. I'll give you Gavin. Thanks. What I what I'd like to talk about is [00:48:30] a is a couple of things. Is is that what went before and also taking it to the to the enemy. Um, but before we do, I'd just like to say thank you. To Trevor and to and to Fran. What Fran didn't mention is it was a big personal toll on her. She got a lot of shit thrown at her from all sides, and and it was really hard for her to keep going during the campaign. And I remember remember you out here when the anti were delivering their petition, you were really beside [00:49:00] yourself. Um, and it did turn against them. But, you know, it was really hard going, and she she gave a lot personally, so we owe her a huge debt of thanks. The homosexual law reform bill that that we got through in uh, 1986 was a real milestone. And we've heard from from Fran and, um, Trevor [00:49:30] as to why that was, um it was a milestone for a lot of individuals, As Fran said, in terms of people coming out, uh, and that has mushroomed since. But it's it was the culmination of a lot of stuff that went before, and I'd just like to to mention a little bit of that, Uh, because I think it's quite important not to forget those people whose shoulders that we stood on and and that we're standing on today. So in the 19 sixties, [00:50:00] when the word gay, um, still meant, uh, pretty and bright and so on. Um, there was a group called the Homosexual Law Reform Society. Now they were a group of, um, prominent individuals. A number of them, and also, um, gay men. Um, but not necessarily really out. But they started the focus on law reform and they wanted the Crimes Act changed. And they they were the activists of the day. [00:50:30] And they took they they stood up and, you know, um fought for what was a really unpopular cause in those days. And people like Jack Goodwin, who was the secretary of the homosexual Law Reform Society, did an amazing job. He wrote so many letters, he he he lobbied. He wrote, um, submissions, and he spoke at a lot of events. And so he he he was the activist of the day. By the 19 seventies, [00:51:00] you you had a a different group of of younger people coming through and you had gay liberation. So you you had least means and gays beginning to come out, beginning to be visible and having a slightly different take on things. And so the the 19 seventies was very much about focus on our rights and that we wanted 16. So we heard mention of Ben Youngs film, which got introduced at an age [00:51:30] of consent of 21. Um, the Homosexual Law Reform Society and the gay groups made submissions for 16. I think it came back at 20 but it it failed to get through on a conscience vote in 1975. Now that was seen as a bit of a defeat. But for a lot of us, it wasn't because we saw it as we didn't get second class citizenship. We we didn't We didn't accept less than everybody else. And [00:52:00] it kept the pressure on the politicians to to have another go and do better, right? So we kept pushing for 16. And And in the late seventies, um, Labour MP and former Cabinet Minister Warren um agreed to introduce a bill, and he came and talked to us about it with the consent of 20. Now, we we had a lot of meetings around the country and a lot of debate about that. Some people felt we should accept it, you know, and and take what we could get. Um, but [00:52:30] a lot of us didn't. And so in the end that was withdrawn, he came back the next year in 1980 with age consent of 18. And again, we said, No, thank you. So that was sort of the background that led up to, um, Fran's bill. And Fran didn't argue about the age of consent. She went for 16, and we all got behind it. So it was It was, you know, absolutely worth setting out. What, what our goals were and sticking to those over the years. [00:53:00] Um, just on the edge of it in. And Trevor's just mentioned it that he was at the night before. A couple of days before the final vote, Fran invited all the the groups and people in committee state. Was it that there was a, um, could get it through at 18. So she she had a consultation with us so they could get it through at 18. And she said, What do you wanna do? [00:53:30] And we said, We want to go for 16. There was a risk. There is a risk that we could lose the whole thing. Um, but we we we said, stick with 16, And it it worked because it forced some of those people George Gear and others who we, we thought might get might be able to be pushed it It forced them to go that way. And so we got we got through it. 16. Um, now, just moving on to the activist side of things. Um, the the [00:54:00] group, the main group that was doing the lobbying, as France mentioned, was a group called the Gay Task Force. Now, that group was, um, very instrumental in getting the bill through, and it was led by Bill Logan. As as we've already mentioned. Um, the reason the reason that I'm speaking tonight is because Bill can't speak tonight now. Um, [00:54:30] yeah. No, um, so I'd just like to acknowledge the work that Bill did, which was absolutely fantastic, uh, and very wide ranging and and not only supporting what Fran was doing, but doing a lot of the activist stuff that we were doing as well. Now, what surprised us [00:55:00] at the early stages of the of the, um, campaign is that the opposition, the anti, as we called them, got themselves very well organised. And so they got that awful petition going. And the Salvation Army, who we all thought were nice people that did nice things for people. They took it upon themselves to take this awful petition around door to door to schools, to workplaces, to pubs, to everywhere. And and so there was a lot of opposition suddenly happened. [00:55:30] They were also running rallies, uh, quite big rallies in the town hall and other places, and so they had a momentum that we kind of didn't on the on the other side. So there's a group of us Alison, Laurie, Linda, Reins, Tiggy and Stone. And a number of us got together, and we we, uh we thought that what we needed was a It was slightly different group than the task force. And we called ourselves the Campaign for Homosexual Equality, and we we we [00:56:00] were focused on doing activist stuff, and basically taking it to the enemy, um, was was what we were trying to do. One of the one of the early things that we did. Um, well, actually, can I just go back to a little stage? What? The effect was of this petition and everything going around? It was really having a toll on our people that it was emboldening, um, people to abuse, Um, the LBG community, you know, and there were a lot of incidents incidents [00:56:30] in workplaces where, you know, people were getting a lot of flack from their their coworkers, and so we we sort of saw if we can get those people involved. It makes it makes everybody feel a lot better. But also, we can achieve a bit. So we took the fight to opponents. The first thing we did, one of the early things we did was organise a march. Now there was a lot of risk around that because because, um, there was a feeling that, uh, it could have been attacked by the, uh, opponents. [00:57:00] And Fran, in fact, rang me a couple of days before and said Could we called it off. We thought about that, and we thought we couldn't, um And so we went ahead and and and did the march with very, very well marshalled. And we had, um, helium filled balloons. So it was a carnival type atmosphere. Um, and fortunately, we didn't get attacked, and it was successful, and it was a turning point in the in the in the fight back campaign. Um, there were a number of other things we did. And I, I I've been told I've got to shut up [00:57:30] shortly. Um, but the number of other things we did is we took it to the Salvation Army. They weren't all united internally. And we picketed their their Sunday service at Citadel in in Vivian Street. And my parents were horrified by the way. And, um, and we and we visited their their their head office in Cuba Street, and we asked for our donations back because they used to do street appeal. So we went and asked for our donations back, and and so they started to realise that actually, [00:58:00] it was going to affect them big time. Now there are a number of other things that that that we also did about I won't won't go into all of those now. I just mentioned that there were some. It wasn't just the activists. There were a number of individual things that that Fran has also mentioned that people did to fight back. And what I heard last night when I was having some drinks with some friends is that I had a couple of friends who were taxi drivers, and one went to pick up a fear at the People's Palace Hotel, which was run by the Salvation Army in Cuba Street. And [00:58:30] he went into the lobby to find the the customer. And on the counter was the petition. Well, when he left the petition wasn't there anymore. So I don't know if the Pete's here tonight, but good on you, Pete. That was really good. So we had a lot of fun. Um, but I think we also achieved with the task force a lot. Uh, and with Fran and her team, um, we all worked together to make the bill a success and got it through. So thank you very much. [00:59:00] And if you ripped up the petition, if you ripped up the petition, ripped up the petition back your head, and with that, the next person that I have to introduce, not clap my hand because what you have just said is not [00:59:30] factually correct. Exactly. Um alright. Thank you. Thank you. Ok, thank you. Um, I just introduced the next person who is Alison. Laurie. Alison, listen, I'll introduce you. I'll introduce you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Ladies and gentlemen, [01:00:00] it is very uncustomary for a drag queen to be seen in her costume before her show. I've come out here to remind you that this is a celebration and we are adults. This is not a public forum for debate. Thank you so much. [01:00:30] All right, just very quickly. An introduction of of of, um Linda. Uh, sorry. Alison. Alison, Alison. I've known for many, many years. She's an activist. Goes back right to the sixties. She has worked in Norway and was involved in the in the movement there. She's bought she [01:01:00] Norway, Denmark, um, and and, um, she's She has brought a lot of that knowledge from Europe to the campaign that we ran here. And so she was, uh, an absolute, um, not only an icon, but a a great source of of help to us. Thank you, Juna. [01:01:30] Yeah, so I'm speaking, but I'm speaking about lesbian involvement, uh, in respect to homosexual law reform. And so I'd like to start a lot earlier, back prior to [01:02:00] coming to our country and my maori ancestors because I'm at the cusp of both races, as so many of us are, uh, my Maori ancestors. Uh, the women could live as, uh, there were plenty of rights for women. Women could own land. Women could do all [01:02:30] kinds of things. When the English team, many things changed and the English in the light 18th century had passed laws that said that women were the property of men and that a woman had no identity. Uh, she was, in fact, the property of her husband, firstly, her father, then her husband and then if he [01:03:00] died, her son brothers. So she really had no identity. So for us as women, the law has always been paramount and very important because it's only the law that has enabled us to achieve any kind of equality or recognition within society. So as women, we've always been very interested [01:03:30] in the law. And in New Zealand, both Maori and Pakeha women were very active in achieving the first in the world the right to vote. In 18 93. We were the first in the world. But prior to that, we did achieve in 18 85 the Married Women's Married Women's Property Act, which gave us the right to be an individual. And without that you couldn't vote [01:04:00] because if you're not a person, how could you vote so as women and as lesbians? We have always been very aware that it's the law, and here we stand in the House of Parliament. It's the law that gives us rights whatever else we may think in the final instance. It is the law. It is the parliament. It it is our members of Parliament that [01:04:30] that can achieve the kind of equality that enables us to live full and equal lives. So, yes, we stand on the shoulders of those who went before, and I will mention some people that perhaps we haven't thought about Mary Taylor. Mary Taylor started the business that eventually became James [01:05:00] Smith's. She was a lover of Charlotte Bronte. Mary Taylor left. She lived here in the 19th century. She went back to London, and she wrote very important books, particularly about the first duty of women. The first duty of woman is to earn her own living to be independent of men. And that's [01:05:30] hugely important because you can't have any lesbians unless women can be economically independent. So all these things link in together, so we shouldn't forget any of that, either. Those women who went before us, who fought hard for those legal reforms to enable us to have a legal existence who have the right to vote [01:06:00] later to have the right to be in Parliament, it actually came a lot later than the right to vote. Um And so it went on the laws against sodomy. How did that affect women? Well, because any law that makes any sort of homosexuality criminal will eventually affect not only men but women. [01:06:30] There were a attempts in Britain which we followed to make sex between women illegal. I don't believe the bullshit that Queen Victoria didn't believe in it. It's rubbish. She knew all about that. Uh, that wasn't a problem. The real attempt comes in 1923 when they when the House of Commons passed it to [01:07:00] make sex with women illegal and it was defeated in the House of Lords Not because they thought that there was anything wrong with that but because, as Lord dear said, to make a law about it would bring it to the attention of women who had never thought of it and never dreamed of it. And that would be a grave mischief. So in New Zealand, we took on [01:07:30] the laws against so so male the not being gay. But the male act of sex was illegal and could be punished for seven years. And we lost so many men to that we lost men who left and went overseas because they couldn't be here. So they talk about a brain drain. And we also lost men who went to prison. [01:08:00] And that was terrible. And so, finally, through many attempts, some of which Gavin has talked about, we came to the point where we finally had a chance to change that law and lesbians were involved in that. Because for us, any kind of criminal, any kind of homosexuality which is criminal, will eventually lead to all kinds of homosexuality [01:08:30] being criminal. So it is not in the interests of lesbians to just say, Oh, well, that's only for men. It was very important. That's why we were involved in the bill in both parts of the bill, not only in the second part of the bill, which was the human rights part we were involved in really agitating and fighting for that reform. We The first part of the bill was one. We were very lucky to lose the second part of the bill because all the exemptions would have meant it was [01:09:00] illegal to discriminate, you know, against teachers against build the military and all kinds of things. So it was best to lose that part And that came again in 1993 and was won by Catherine O'Regan. Uh, so we have legislative success, and we will continue to do that. And my message is that is, through the law, that we achieve equality. It is so [01:09:30] important to recognise that we live in a democracy. We are fortunate. We have a parliamentary system and we must use it. And I will conclude by saying that we must never silence anybody. We must not silence people. We must not know platform people. That is anti democracy. We must let all the voices be heard. [01:10:00] Yes, and now I want to introduce Des Smith. Oh, no, no, no. Sorry. I forgot that. No. Now I want to introduce Michel Jena and Michelle was one of the activists in homosexual law reform. And she was a partner of Pauline [01:10:30] Simmons, who was a tremendously important campaigner for all our rights for many years and who, unfortunately died a couple of years ago. I feel immensely proud to be here with all of you today. I [01:11:00] It's wonderful to see old friends and comrades from many years ago. Um, like Alison, I also want to talk about lesbian involvement in the homosexual law reform campaign. And in the human rights amendment, the times are very different back then, Um, as many of you who are older than I will remember, I was about 21 during the homosexual law reform campaign. Um, [01:11:30] and as people have alluded to previously, um, it was a bit of a scary time. I remember the presentation of the petition on the steps of Parliament. I remember seeing those young people in their uniforms with their sashes in their first race at singing the national anthem. And it was shocking. Um, at the time that the petition the petition was being at the time that the petition was being taken around, I worked [01:12:00] for the housing corporation. Um, the petition arrived in my workplace, and people were lined up by the supervisors and expected to sign it. A number of us refused. Um, not just the gay men and lesbians, but also a lot of our straight colleagues refused. Thank goodness. Um, but these it made [01:12:30] our lives very, very difficult. At the time, I was centred many times for wearing trousers to work. I was told that I must make my appearance more feminine to fit in. That prompted me to join the union. My life at that time was divided between Wellington and Christchurch. [01:13:00] Um, it started off down in Christchurch during 1985 and I joined a group supporting the homosexual law reform campaign. At the time down in Christchurch, a lot of evangelists were being invited over from the United States to speak in churches and community halls about the evils of homosexuality. I remember attending one of those meetings, and there was quite a large police presence. We stood at the back of the hall peacefully with placards supporting [01:13:30] homosexual law reform and said very little during this entire travesty. I was a friend of mine was standing next to me and got barged by an elderly man who had his elderly wife next to him. She said, Excuse me to try and get past him. He turned around and he punched her in the face and knocked her to the ground, and a policeman was standing there and said, I saw nothing. That's [01:14:00] what it was like. I remember in Christchurch at the time, as a young lesbian socialising in rough pubs because those were the only meeting places we had and taking beatings in the car park. That was the reality for a lot of us lesbians and gay men. So we had to stand up and we had to fight for equality. And we have. [01:14:30] Many of us were evicted from our flats. Many of us were thrown out of our homes. I was made to leave home when I was 16 years old. That's not uncommon. Um, so that's why this has been so important. It's changed people's lives. [01:15:00] I came back to Wellington just to see, um, things were heating up with the with the petition being presented at Parliament and all that kind of stuff. And, um, it was at that time that I first met. Although I didn't connect with, uh, my life partner, Pauline Simmons, who I was with for 28 years. We [01:15:30] danced together at the celebration, Um, but also what I want to talk about are the diverse groups in our community. At the time, we were all so different. There was no homogenous gay and lesbian community. As such, we were we were a range of diverse groups, and we all had our own opinions, our own values. We all had our own ideas and we didn't always agree with each other. [01:16:00] Sometimes we really disagree with each other, and sometimes the meetings could become heated. They were always passionate. They were always with the right intentions. But sometimes there were disagreements. But we worked through those disagreements. We we spoke to each other about the ideas. We didn't target individuals. We treated up our opponents at times within [01:16:30] our own community. With respect, many of you will remember some of those debates. I remember having discussions with Alison and Pauline, Bill Logan and Phil Parkinson. Many of us are now all comrades and friends. Those film Logan and Linda were celebrants at my partner's funeral. [01:17:00] That's how close we became. Over that time. We learned to respect each other, though our views often differed and we got together to change things, and we learned to tolerate differences and we moved forward and and with the help of many of our parliamentarians, with whom we couldn't have, without whom we couldn't have achieved this, [01:17:30] we now live in a much different world. But I do still have some concerns. The fight isn't over at any political whim. The rights that we take for granted today can be taken away. I think we need to be realistic about that. Look at the American elections at the moment. Um, there are still issues facing our community, although people may have legal protection, Do we truly have equality? There are still issues [01:18:00] of poverty, and, uh, she's holding back many members of our community that we need to address. But what I would like to see as we move forward into the future is the continuation of those alliances of being able to work together, even though we don't agree on everything to find a common ground and not expect everybody to be the same, because I don't think that's realistic. I think we can work with each other, [01:18:30] and I think we can work positively and achieve great things while respecting other people's differences. Lastly, I would like to acknowledge Bill Logan, who hasn't been allowed to speak tonight. Bill, I'm sorry that this has happened. I don't think it's right. I don't think [01:19:00] that people that fought as hard as Bill should be no platform tonight. So thank you for your time. Just a I have an old newspaper from from 1993 when the Human Rights Amendment went through. [01:19:30] This really sees a lot of what I've said here tonight, so thank you. All should. And now I am introducing Des Smith and dear was the founder of heterosexuals unafraid of gays. [01:20:00] And and that was very important, uh, to create an organisation which allowed heterosexuals to support the bill. There were There was also a coalition, uh, in support of the bill. But that was an organisation. But I must say that in fact, uh, among us lesbians and gays, we were inclined to call [01:20:30] it hag homosexuals, afraid of gays. And he did come out OK, that's enough. Uh, one of the things that we did learn during that campaign I've got many, many tales to tell. And of course it was hard work. And I do remember running around like a cat in and out of the office [01:21:00] coming in here today. All that security. We didn't have it. Then I could run up to Wild's office. I could use all the copying machines. I don't know how many papers I copied, distributed even around New Zealand, and this is all on taxpayers' money. Anyway, in running around, I met Johnny Cross Street. Now Johnny was a wonderful I've got a photo here. I know you can't [01:21:30] alter it. Johnny was really a neat gay guy. He didn't call himself transsexual. He didn't call himself transverse guy. He just was a gay guy hopping around in wonderful drag. I mean, here's a photo of his wonderful plume. Now, Johnny, I said to him, This is all hard work, you know, getting this bill going through. He said, I'm not political. Johnny was political [01:22:00] because right at school days primary school, Johnny was Johnny. And that visibility is something we learned during homosexual law reform, the importance of being visible. And this is so important. I at our age Mark John and my wonderful partner, John and myself, we recently have met quite a number of closet gays. I like to think young people because [01:22:30] of Fran, the bill and people like Bill Ogan, Alison Laurie, Trevor Mallard, Gavin Young. All these people have made it easier for younger people. And there were moments when we wasn't all work. It was quite amusing because the infamous petition backed by the Salvation Army. They had a free post box number. Great. My brother had a shot. He threw out a lot of cards. [01:23:00] Deepest sympathy. Happy birthday. We wrote the free post box number on all those post them off to them. And they said, Oh, this isn't enough. We'll wrap up bricks. So we wrapped up bricks and we posted them. Next thing they closed down the preview post box number. So we did all that. And another person I like to acknowledge it wasn't all hard work by gays. I was phoned by a 16 year old woman [01:23:30] at or young girl at, uh on college. Uh, that was Emily Perkins, well known now as a writer. The reason she supported homosexual law reform because she had parents who really thought they had gay friends. And although she's not gay herself, But we went around and we put posters that are copied on those machines hold all over Wellington. Great. But then we had this fundamentalist Christian guy [01:24:00] coming around following us with a paint scraper scraping our posters off. So we followed him every time he took one poster down. We put five more up, but then a way to frustrate fundamentalist Christians. I turned up one day with my van and we had a step ladder. So what we did was Emily would pass me out the bucket of glue so he put them up so high, and then this guy would come along on his pay would go. So anyway, those things were [01:24:30] a little bit lighter moments, but I don't know how many times the police took my name, but I didn't get in trouble. Uh, well, I don't think I did. I've probably got my name still, um, so one of the other things, Of course. As people will know I did. I did start with James Hislop and Pauline Simmons, the gay lesbian fear, which is still going. [01:25:00] So the first year we did it together after that, of course, I did it on my own for nine years. But in 1987 I did meet a wonderful man. And everybody here probably is aware of John. And so with John over there, we have had now as close on 30 years of a wonderful time together and [01:25:30] many, many moments. And I do want to acknowledge also at this time, Bill Logan again now, Bill. Bill. He not only was great strategy, but he saved people. And I was one because I did get, uh, a big boulder put through my van window. I got abused, I got stones chucked at our house. I got, uh we did a, uh I had a stall in upper, uh, lower [01:26:00] hut. We got spat on by so-called Christians, and we also had our store tipped over. Life was tough. Bill saved me. He put me on to, uh, Neil Thornton. Good counselling. And so I just want you all to give a big clap for bill. Anyway, I [01:26:30] think I'll wind up there. Uh, you've probably heard enough, but I'll tell you what. There's 100 tales, but I am doing another tour at the lander on Thursday at 10. 30. So those who have time come along, no matter what the weather, you'll have a good time. I've got some funny tales to tell. Ok, thank you.

IRN: 998
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/sian_torrington_we_dont_have_to_be_the_building.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004409
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089703
TITLE: Sian Torrington - We Dont Have To Be The Building
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VOICES: Sian Torrington
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland Pride Festival; Berlin; Big Gay Out (Auckland); Black Women's movement; Courtenay Place; Drawing it Out; Dyke News; Elizabeth Kerekere; Germany; Glastonbury Festival; Hinemoana Baker; John Key; Kassie Hartendorp; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Let's Talk About Sex (hui); Minsk; Nathaniel Gordon-Stables; People Against Prisons Aotearoa (formerly known as No Pride In Prisons); Pride; Pride parade (Auckland); Sasha Hartmann-Hughes; Sian Torrington; Steven Joyce; Tash Helasdottir-Cole; Tiriti o Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi; United Kingdom; We Don't Have To Be The Building (2016); Wellington; Wellington City Council; activism; arts; assemblage; biphobia; bisexual; boosted; bravery; butch; celebration; clothing; collaboration; coming out; commodification; connect; connections; consciousness raising; consent; cottaging; council; culture; dildo; diversity; drawing; embodied research; experimental; femme; fun; funding; fundraising; gay; hair; hate; homophobia; homosexual law reform; hui; human rights; humour; immigration; interviewing; intimacy; invisibility; kaupapa; laughter; law; lesbian; lesbian feminism; life drawing; listening; marriage equality; mobilisation; oral history; passion; passive; patriarchal system; pridenz. com; privilege; protest; public spaces; queer; racism; reflection; research; sex; sex toys; sexism; sexual orientation; sexual rights; sexuality; shame; silence; socialism; solidarity; support; trans; transgender; truth; university; video; visibility; visual arts; whakapapa; wisdom; women
DATE: 25 February 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Sian talks about the art project We Don't Have To Be The Building which focuses on lesbian, bi-sexual, queer female-bodied, trans*, mana wahine, takataapui and female-identified activists of both 30 years ago during Homosexual Law Reform, and now in our contemporary world.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So the project is looking at, um, activism and sexuality both 30 years ago and today. And it's particularly, um, looking at, um, queer, female bodied and female identified activism and sexuality. Um, and the project is taking the form of doing a lot of different kinds of research. So research, um, in in the [00:00:30] archives, but also what I'm calling embodied research. So, um, drawing people talking with people, um, doing collaborative drawings and everything Will will go into the light boxes on Courtney place at the end and describe the light boxes. What are they? So the light boxes are a, um, public art project by, uh, Wellington City Council. So there are eight large scale light boxes on Courtney Place, and [00:01:00] they're they're kind of like like billboards, I guess. Like they're on the street, They they sort of echo kind of commercial space, but they're for art. And how do you get to to kind of exhibit in those those boxes? So you write a proposal? Um, so, I I proposed this project well over a year ago, about a year and a half ago. Um, and and like all proposals, you have to describe what you think you're going to do? Um, [00:01:30] and then you start doing the project, and it blossoms and grows and becomes what it actually is going to be. Yeah, and they're up for, um, they'll be up for three or four months. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. And one of the things that I'm really excited about them is that it is such a public space, and it's it's an open space. People, anyone walking on the street can see them. You don't have to go into a gallery or Yeah, [00:02:00] So you're saying that you're kind of focusing in on female activism and female bodied activism? Why that in particular? Well, um, one of the things, um, there's a few strands, but I'm really interested in how, um, other other groups and identities protested and worked really hard and took a lot of risks for homosexual law reform and for the rights, [00:02:30] um, to sexually express themselves of gay men of, of and and of trans women, Um, at that time. And how that process of of of coming together over sexual, um, rights over human rights. But how? Our sexual rights, like I I've said to a number of people. We there isn't a law about that about my sex or my sexuality, because [00:03:00] there doesn't need to be because we have the patriarchy and it teaches us to hate our bodies, um, and and be be quiet and silent and good. And it teaches my butch lovers to feel like they're ugly and they're unacceptable and and and on and on and on and on. So it's like, um uh, much more like, much more complicated, much more difficult to kind of put your finger on [00:03:30] and difficult to to see. Whereas I think and I mean a lot of what I've been reading in the archives and hearing from people is that the law was such a galvanising force because it was so clear and it was so clearly, clearly wrong. Um, so, yeah, those That's what I'm interested in, kind of kind of looking at. And I feel like my journey of coming out, um, or coming out, I think of it as as many different things over [00:04:00] the years, um, has been a battle against silence. Um, because my my sexuality has been has been silenced in so many ways. So this is about um, yeah. Working against that. Working against that silencing. Yeah. Can you give me some examples of of how your sexuality has been solved? So, for example, like when I was growing up, Um, like, I have a lot of queer people in [00:04:30] my family. And my, um and I had queer people around me, but I never thought, um, I never thought I could possibly be a lesbian because I felt like a drag queen. Um, so when I when I finally came out when I was around 27 it was like a quite typical, I think, Um, fem experience of thinking. I have to, um I have to cut my hair off. [00:05:00] I have to get rid of my clothes that have sequins on. I have to because I have to be recognisably lesbian. I have to be recognisably queer. Um, and that's that's not true. So that's part of the silencing for me is that I didn't see myself anywhere reflected, um and so I tried to have sex with men and keep making that work because it was like, I don't understand. I don't understand what [00:05:30] I am. I don't know what I am. Um and I think that's yeah. I think we can't be what we can't see. Um, And that's part of queer culture, isn't it? Making ourselves visible in in all of our diversity. Yeah, but also, when I was, um, growing up, there was very, very little dialogue about actual sex. So I mean, the first time I had sex with a man, I just remember it so clearly [00:06:00] And feeling absolutely nothing and thinking that must be normal. Or, like, all of these narratives about kind of, um, female sexuality being like being passive and being about, um, you know, it's not necessarily about you or and And all of that stuff was quite, um uh, yeah, quite difficult to work against. And I didn't have any tools to work against it with. And I hope I really hope that things [00:06:30] are different now, um, for for younger people. But, um, yeah, just the the dialogue and conversations around sex weren't there for me. Yeah. So were you around during homosexual law reform? I was, um I grew up in the UK, so I came to New Zealand when I was 20 So I would have been nine when homosexual law reform [00:07:00] went through here. Um, but I would have been Yeah, in in the UK and in the UK. What? What was the kind of situation there in terms of kind of, um, homosexuality and the legality of it? I don't know when the law changed, but I know that it was illegal in the in the seventies and that my, um my my mother had a lecturer, um, at her university, who she she adored. And he was he was a gay guy. And he was doing [00:07:30] cottaging and getting, and he was arrested. And and so there was, um, Yeah, so I mean, I remember hearing those stories, Um, when I was really young and kind of being told about that in injustice and strangeness. Um, yeah, and they were presented to me as, um that lecturer and his partner as, um just like us. You know, the very much that sort of, um, that sort of narrative Where they, [00:08:00] um They lived in a cottage with a beautiful gate with roses over the You know, those are the kind of stories that yeah, that she told So in your research so far, what have you found? in terms of the kind of, um, the non gay men that were involved in law reform. What? What are the things that you've discovered? Um, there's a lot of, um, there's a lot of lesbian stuff in the archives. And, um [00:08:30] and one of the things which is is really interesting is about, um is about solidarity and working together. And there's some really interesting narratives around, um around sexism and, um, lesbians having discussions. There's this fantastic publication called Dyke News. Um, [00:09:00] and their philosophy was to if it was lesbian, they published it. So it's a really amazing kind of snapshot of lots and lots and lots of different opinions. Um and yes. So I think in there there's there's conversations with women talking about Why why are we doing this and talking about, You know, um, female people are brought up to help other people and serve other people, and we have to be careful that [00:09:30] that that we have energy left over for ourselves. Um, and there's also a lot of really amazing passionate, um, writing about yeah, about why we need to be doing this protesting people writing about their, um, about their own experiences of homophobia. Um, coming out because of, um, because of the bill. Um, and just the yeah, the bravery around that [00:10:00] and in terms of the solidarity. Also, like from gay men writing about that and saying, you know, if we want, um, like, we're never going to We need the women. We need lesbians. We need bisexuals. We need, um, the support. And if we're going to gain that support, we have to look at our own sexism, and we have to look at we So there's this. [00:10:30] There's this one incredible piece of writing. Um, where a guy just starts by saying today, I'm I'm ashamed to be a man. Um, and and this is why you know? And he says, uh, the lesbians lesbians don't need us. They've proved that they're perfectly fine without us, but we would be lost without them. Um, so we so that so There were these sort of consciousness raising groups, um, around around sexism. And yeah. So, um, it's [00:11:00] Yeah. It's like the project is almost becoming more about the, um um the the the cracks in our communities And how we, um, get to each other across those cracks. Um and I think that was that was a big part of it 30 years ago. And it's a big part of our communities now. Like it, um, because we're all we're all so different. And sexuality is so personal. And are you looking at material earlier than, say, 85 [00:11:30] 86? Because, I mean, there was a lot of activism happening before that. So are you going further back or are you just concentrating on that kind of peak time of 85 86? I'm kind of looking. I'm looking at the seventies and the eighties and, um, the how many things were were connected, um, and and work around, um, around the treaty and, um, it it's all connected. And I think in in, um, [00:12:00] one of the interviews that's on pride and Z with Elizabeth, and she was talking about being part of the black women's movement and wanting to support sort of mobilise each group to support what other groups were doing. Um, and just help help people by doing whatever they needed. So she yeah, rather than kind of telling other people what they need just listening and mobilising the energy and resources you already [00:12:30] have to provide that. Yeah, Aside from the lesbian and gay archives of New Zealand, are there other kind of, um, pathways or avenues that you're getting that kind of historic kind of angle from? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So I've I've always found that research is surprisingly organic. Um, and how it sort of It's like, you dive into the ocean and suddenly it's all around you, Um, and people turn up [00:13:00] and you think this is the perfect person to talk to, And what I'm trying to do is is find the narratives that are not sort of the narratives that we've heard before. Um, and I'm not a historian, and I'm not a journalist. And I'm an artist and a writer. And my friend Moana said to me, um, who's mentoring me through this, um, project, the writing part of it. And she said artists look for connections. That's what we do. So, um, [00:13:30] so I'm talking to yeah, all all sorts of people in terms of interviewing people. So I interviewed um uh, I did an interview recently about, um, bi phobia around that time. Um and yeah, looking at, So I'm so I'm interviewing people. Um, and that's quite an organic process. I'm just sort of trying to find the people that it feels right to interview and interview people who identify in different ways, um, and [00:14:00] get kind of a snapshot in that way. And then, um, there's a range of other things that I'm doing. So I'm I'm kind of gathering a lot of, um stuff, I guess just online about protests at the moment. Like there's so much queer activism happening right now. Um, and I've just had, um I found a video of the booing offstage of John Key. Um, just, you know, on good [00:14:30] old Facebook. And it was it's just such a stunning thing that happened. Um, and I love thinking about how I think that's the last place that he would have expected that to happen because, um, of those ideas about, um, queer culture being sort of, um, you know, being silly or able to be commodified or entertaining. And, um, there was a stunning, um, Trans [00:15:00] woman at the front protesting, and I thought that that is the image that I want to draw, which is really unusual for me. So I've tracked her down through Facebook and talking about Can I draw you, Um, as as part of this project. So it's things like that, which just kind of come up. Um, I'm also doing during pride Week. I'm doing a project called Drawing It Out where I I'm [00:15:30] inviting people to come and, um be drawn in the studio, and I'm calling it fully consensual life drawing. So I will draw whatever you offer me whatever part of your body you offer me or, um, it could be your ear. It could be your back. Um, but something which connects to your sexuality. So that feels really amazing. Um, and a kind of an intimacy as well. Um, between me and the people [00:16:00] who are drawn. So yeah, so there's that kind of research. There's I'm gonna I'm running a series of who we called. Let's talk about sex where we will talk and share and, um yeah, work out like the most common question that I've been asked by straight people about my sexuality is something like, Well, what do you do anyway? And it's like, Wow one. It's none of your business. And two, that's kind of that sums up [00:16:30] so many myths around our sexuality is like what you know, like it doesn't exist. Um, so those who we are about yeah, working out well, it does exist. And let's kind of speak it out together into the world. Yeah. So those are some of the things I'm doing? There's other things. How do you navigate? Um, those kind of intensely personal, um, emotions or feelings [00:17:00] or or stories and then kind of navigate it into, like, a public art work. How does that work? So, um, I consent is really, really important to me. Um, so whatever people tell me or share with me or show me, um, I will work with and then I will show what I've made to them, and they have absolute right to say [00:17:30] yes, that's fine. To go into this context or no, it's not. And if they say no, it's not, uh, I'm gonna literally cut it physically out of the artwork, because the the artwork itself is everything's going to be assemblage. So one of my main values in my art making and my life is that many things are true at once, and conflicting things can be true at once. um so this will be [00:18:00] this will be a presentation of many of many, many truths. Um, altogether So? So the artworks are very layered. Um, so there may be drawings of, of, of bodies, and then there may be text. And so, um yeah, and I think I really like that idea of, um, yeah, cutting things out if they need to be cut out and leaving that as obvious because I think that's a really important [00:18:30] part of our survival. And our culture is that sometimes we need to retreat from the public world and just be together. And we can share things together that we don't want to share out, in out in straight society. Yeah. Do you have any kind of like, um, are there any constraints about what you can and can't show in like in a in a very public street scene? Um, I think I have to. [00:19:00] Everything that I make has to be approved by the public art panel. Um and but I don't I don't have many concerns about about them. They're all artists, and I think it will. It will be fine, but it's more Yeah, what people want to feed through that process and and onto the street. Um, but yeah, I think that's part of that's part of the project is like with, um with drawing [00:19:30] it out. I thought, You know, it may be that no one wants to come and be drawn, and then I will show a blank piece of paper because that's that's fine. Um, so it's kind of all of the methods are quite experimental, and they're also like, um, they're like, offers. I feel like I keep making these offers out into the world and sort of saying, What about this and seeing if it strikes a chord for people you know? And it's OK if [00:20:00] if it doesn't, um because this process is like, I've talked about this project from the beginning as being like looking for my queer of activism and of sexuality. So looking for that, that that grounding that that net, um, those layers of people who've come before me and people who are coming after me to kind of position myself, and I think that process is always [00:20:30] really challenging. It throws up all sorts of things. You find things that you don't want to look at and things that are really comforting. And it's kind of all in that same process. Um, so what I want to present is like, This is what This is what I found and it's a big tangle and I don't have any of the answers, but it's beautiful as well, and it's powerful and it's complicated. And so [00:21:00] the artwork and the writing will reflect that. That complication. Um, so the writing pieces will be bits from the archives, bits of me writing about the process, things, things that, um, I've been allowed to quote that other people have said, um and weaving it all together into this sort of very layered, layered story. Yeah, and the light boxes Do they? Is there going to be a tie [00:21:30] between the boxes, or are they kind of going to be? Well, there's, there's, there's eight of them and they have two sides, So there's 16 panels. Um, so that's one of the things I have to sort of work out through the process is, um yeah, in terms of it being being readable, should it be sort of alternating, you know, 30 years ago and today, or or whatever it is, um, so, yeah, that will be kind of worked out as as [00:22:00] I go. But one of the things that's really great about the light boxes is that a lot of people walk past them regularly. So you I mean, I know with with works that I've really engaged with, I've sort of stopped, you know, more than once, and you'll notice different things about them or yeah, and because the artworks and the writing will be photographed and scanned for me, it's It's a It's an exciting project because they, [00:22:30] um they can be quite, um, temporary sort of, uh, pieces so they can be hanging together by threads and, um, and and because they're just photographed, Uh, so that's sort of, I think, quite an important part of the materiality of the project is that, yeah, our stories are always changing, you know, and we take them apart, and we put them together again in a different way. And that's what that's actually what history is like. It's not. It's [00:23:00] not fixed. It's all these different perspectives. You touched on briefly, um, activism. Now in in New Zealand, Um, are you able to paint a picture of of some of the kind of that you've come across. Yeah. So, um, I, I, um I've been following no pride in prisons. Um, And what? And they've been pretty active [00:23:30] lately, and I met with them up in Auckland, and they, uh, yeah, they're really brave and and interesting. And we're talking about putting how activism is literally putting our bodies in the way of what we are protesting against. And so they, um, recently stopped the pride parade, um broke [00:24:00] through barriers and and stopped the pride parade, and and it had to be rerouted. And that's a really, even just that is such a fascinating, um, situation. Because some people feel they ruined the parade and, you know, and other people feel, um you know, what a great demonstration, Um, and so there's there's a lot of conversation about kind of what what pride is all about, you know, is [00:24:30] it about celebrating and looking good and having fun? Um, and and being, um, celebrating, being allowed to be on the street and being ok. And we've got marriage equality and, um, sort of, aren't we doing well? Um, and then the the other argument, I guess which is about, uh, pride only means anything if it's for everyone. And if everyone is carried [00:25:00] with us, um, and that there are a lot of people who have not been carried with us and whose rights are still in such a stop sorry state as they were 30 years ago. And so let's bring that to, um, let's bring that to the forefront and make that part of yeah, part of part of part of those parades. So it's It's a very interesting moment. Yeah, and I think that, you know, the, um the dildo [00:25:30] throwing at Stephen Joyce and the, um, booing John Key offstage. And it's one thing that has really struck me is how particularly young, queer people identify everything as being connected. So they don't just talk about liberation of queer peoples. They talk about, uh, socialism, and they talk about racism and they talk about. So it's I guess it's the same as what Elizabeth was was [00:26:00] talking about. That um, no one's no one's free until everyone's free. Yeah, Do you allow yourself to have a an opinion on this? Or is, is the artwork kind of a neutral and you're just presenting different aspects. I mean, is there does it have an opinion? I think that, um, yeah, I would struggle to ever call my artwork. Neutral. Um, someone asked me recently, What are your What are your art [00:26:30] proposals like? And I said they are. They are hot and passionate and tangled and and well researched. And that's what they're like, and they just are what they are. And so I think this, uh, this project is like that, but at the same time, it is, uh, it is it it it is open. Uh, I think that one of my gifts as an artist is being able to hold, um, provide [00:27:00] space for truths that are that are almost opposite to each other. And people. People have very passionate views about each other and identities and all sorts of things. And what's important to me is that nobody is is squashed. I don't want to be squashed. And but that means that I also have to listen to some things that I might find difficult to. Um, that's my dog. [00:27:30] And you've mentioned the word solidarity a number of times and and and I guess, I wonder I mean, do you see? Um uh, you know, the rainbow community communities in in I mean is Is there is there solidarity? Now, do you think? I think there's I think there's a mixture. I think there's, um, some. And I think it comes down to privilege [00:28:00] to a large degree. I think that, um some people, of course, are doing better than others in the world. And, um, it it's the the ones of us who are more able to, um, to pass or to be part of the world that we've got now. And what I'm interested in is making new worlds. I'm not interested in trying to fit into a world that already exists. Um, [00:28:30] and when I was a child, I grew up with Glastonbury Festival and many festivals that grew from from nothing. Um and so that's kind of part of my world view is that we Can we actually create the world? We don't have to kind of be obedient to what? To how we're told. Things have to be. But I think those, um yeah, the solidarity comes from, um it come. It comes from, uh, being able to listen [00:29:00] to each other. Um, and and but which is a lovely, you know, thing to think and say But part of that is, um can be really, really uncomfortable because always acknowledging your own privilege is uncomfortable and sad and and, um but that's what we have to keep. Um, that's what we have to keep doing. So I mean, with the I'm running a fundraising campaign through boosted and it's [00:29:30] Yeah, um, again recently said to me she was in AAA writers' festival in Minsk and she said I heard this local saying, which was the cracks in the country run through the artist and this project is very much like that. And the fundraising campaign is very much like that. So the the cracks in our community are being shown to me through this process. So, um, for example, only two [00:30:00] gay men have donated to that campaign. Three No. 31 more yesterday. Um and I asked some really close friends Why? They thought that was and like, what am I doing wrong? Or and they said we just it doesn't have anything to do with us. And yeah, it was like, Oh, ok, um, I have to tell that story more clearly because, um, these this project is in part, [00:30:30] the stories of people who supported homosexual law reform to go through. And they worked really, really hard, and they took a lot of risks. And, um, it's kind of I find that frightening and sad that yes, female stories sort of get get, get lost in that history because, um, because we're not because we're not written into history enough. So [00:31:00] yeah, those are the kind of cracks that that I'm seeing and also cracks. Um, where it's like, um, it like like for me defining my audience for this, um, project and the of this project, um, took months of working out, and at first I really I wanted it to just be a lesbian project. That's an identity that's really important to me. And it's [00:31:30] how a lot of women identified at that time, and they may not identify that way now, Um, but when I went into the archives the first day that I spent in the archives reading lesbian feminist, um, writing about who was allowed in and who wasn't, um, and that bisexuals weren't allowed in, and if you had ever had sex with a man, you weren't allowed in. And if you were firm or if you were, but [00:32:00] you weren't allowed in. And I was so shocked, I thought I can't do this project. You know, it felt like it was so hateful. Um, and I guess that's that's part of this. Like, you find things that you think I don't want to find that I don't want to look at that. But that is part of that is part of where we've come from. And so at that point, I started thinking about yeah, what I could what I could, um, stand [00:32:30] by and what I could, um, what I could stand for. And I thought, I can't I can't be a part of that narrative, and I can't continue that narrative. And that will mean that some, um, lesbians will not come to this, and they will not be a part of part of this, and that's that's a real shame, but it it has to be OK. And I think that their voices are in this through [00:33:00] they they are. They are in this through the archives as well. Um, which is Yeah, which is cool, but yeah, there's a lot of cracks. Yeah, so, on a personal level, as as as an artist dealing with all these, um, these things and especially the the the kind of some of the hateful things and some of the destructive energies around, um, around these issues. I mean, how do you deal with that? Yeah, um, it's [00:33:30] been It's quite it's quite hard work. And I, um, have been doing things like, uh, reading rom coms at night. Like I'm like, you just have to read something really, really frivolous and, you know, go and jump in the ocean. And but also, um, something I've been trying to remember and practise recently is that, um I I and and it's like so much wisdom that I need [00:34:00] is coming through the archives and coming through my ancestors. So there was a bit where someone wrote, um, our sense of humour is our best weapon, and I thought, Yes. And it's also our best, um, defence. And so for me, I've been in my art practise, sort of. I think of it as, like my little girl, where she's like, I just want to play with Glen. I don't care. I care about all this stuff. I just And it's like, yes, [00:34:30] go with that. And I think that is such a massive part of queer culture and watching, you know, footage of of pride, parades. And it just it was like it struck me all over again. How radical and how brave it is to be so expressive, um, of ourselves and of our identities and of of play and of of fun and and of seriousness. So it's kind [00:35:00] of, um, yeah, just trying to keep that, Um, yeah, keep that balance. Yeah, is is good. And you've mentioned, um, a baker a couple of times, and it must just be, um, so special to have her on your shoulder. I just watching over you. She is. She's in Berlin at the moment, But, um, we've known each other for many, many years And, um, yes, So she's She's an amazing [00:35:30] mentor through the project, and and also, when I come to, um, pulling together the writing as well. Um, and there's I've got I've got a really amazing team of people working with me and collaborating with me on this project. So I have a, um, intern through Massie. Uh, Nathaniel Gordon stables, and he's he's really he's really wonderful. I have a queer youth facilitator. Um, Sasha Hartman Hughes. [00:36:00] Um, and Cassie Harten has been working with me in a capacity as well. Um, tash, hell dot is gonna be photographing and videoing. Um, and of course, my partner, Crete has been amazing. Making boosted videos and helping me edit things and and being being a real cheerleader and an encourager as well. Um, so I think it's a really important part of this project, that collaborative, sort [00:36:30] of, um, process and different. Um, yeah, different voices and perspectives and identities that are feeding in to yeah, the whole form of the project and the stories that it's telling. So that's something that I want to do, um, after the light boxes open. But while they're still up, like probably in in October or November, it's run a big where we can present all of this research. Um, and maybe people who [00:37:00] I've interviewed want to speak, um, or people I've collaborate collaborated with can show, you know, their their work separately. Talk about the process. And and I think that will be a really amazing um, yeah, time to To to really open some of this conversation up. Yeah.

IRN: 1006
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TITLE: Dangerous Desires - Same Same But Different
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VOICES: Grant Robertson; Jen Shieff; Nick Jones; Peter Wells; Stevan Eldred-Grigg; Thomas Sainsbury; Verity George; Whaitiri Mikaere
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; 2010s; Allison Durbin; Anton Chekhov; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland Girls' Grammar School; Auckland University of Technology; Back to the Future (film); Barbie dolls; Boys in the Band (play); Carole Beu; Christopher Isherwood; D. H. Lawrence; Dangerous Desires (1991); Desperate Remedies (1993); Dunedin; Dykes on Mics (Auckland); Fingerprints and Teeth Productions; Five Go Mad (tv); France; Frank Sargeson; Gaius Valerius Catullus; Garnet Station (Auckland); Geoff Braybrooke; Germaine Greer; Ghostbusters (film); Grant Robertson; HIV / AIDS; Heather McDonald; Heroes Out West (Auckland); I Have Loved Me A Man (song); Jane Rule; Jen Shieff; Julie Watson; La Bamba (film); Lady Chatterley's Lover (book); Madeleine Sami; Man on Man (magazine); Matamata; Matariki Poetry Slam; Member of Parliament; Mills and Boon; New Zealand Labour Party; Nick Jones; Orlando (film); Paris; Patricia Highsmith; Peter Wells; Playmarket; Poems to Lesbia; Poetry Idol Slam; R. Leighton Hasselrodt; Radclyffe Hall; Ride a Hard Cock (book); Ritchie Valens; Samesame But Different (2016); Simone de Beauvoir; St Cuthbert's College (Auckland); Stevan Eldred-Grigg; Steven Joyce; Strictly Ballroom (film); Super City (tv); Tales of the City (books); The Daughters of Bilitis; The Famous Five (book); The Happy Hooker: My Own Story (book); The Little Red Book; The Price of Salt (book); The Second Sex (book); The Well of Loneliness (book); The Women's Bookshop; The World of Suzie Wong (film); This Is Not For You (book); Thomas Sainsbury; Tilda Swinton; Tim Blanks; Tom Selleck; Twilight Women Around the World (book); Uncle Vanya (play); Verity George; Wellington; Whaitiri Mikaere; What's Happening To Me? (book); Where Did I Come From? (book); Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? (film); Witi Ihimaera; Woman or Girlfriend (poem); Xaviera Hollander; activism; allies; asexual; bisexual; books; butch; civil unions; clothing; clothing catalogue; condoms; crime writing; dance; depression; dildo; disco; erotica; exercise; faggot; family; fantasy; farm; fishing; gay; gender identity; growing up; hair; homophobia; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; identity; internet; intersex; invert; lesbian; lust; magazines; mail order; marriage; marriage equality; masturbation; meetings; newspapers; pansexual; parents; phone tapping; poetry; pornography; queer; rugby; rural; school; school ball; sex; sex work; sexual orientation; sexuality; sport; teaching; trans; transgender; underwear; women; writing
DATE: 13 February 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Auckland University of Technology, 55 Wellesley Street East, Auckland
CONTEXT: Audio from the session: Dangerous Desires.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Welcome to Dangerous Desires. The gala event. Same same. My Name's Verity George. I'm an actor writer and co-owner of Garnett Station, Cafe, restaurant and Tiny theatre. Every day, the rainbow flag flutters in West mere in the breeze and people gather to exchange their stories. Tonight we hear for an evening of storytelling with a diverse group of authors and community notables who are going to talk about how they found out about the love that dare not speak its name. [00:00:30] Unfortunately, tonight, Emma Lyon and Rebecca Swan are unable to attend this evening. Things that change the status quo were the homosexual law. Reform was signed in New Zealand in 1986 and the Marriage Equality Bill was passed in 2013. Still, it's not always straightforward finding out about same sex love. Catalas wrote poetry at the end of the Roman Republic, and I translated it in my Latin class at my much loved private [00:01:00] girls school. Halfway through my nine years at Saint, my mother asked if I'd like to go to a college school. Well, I considered it briefly, but then I declined. By the time I was in high school, there was only three of us in the Latin class. The exclusivity made it so much more exciting. My biggest secret as a teenager was my middle name. It's Leslie, It's Lesley. And after being [00:01:30] teased with Lizzie, Lizzie Leslie, I sensed that it was best to keep my mouth shut, which is not something that I find very easy to do. But when I discovered Catalas poetry to Lesia, I could pretend that I had written it. Let us love my lesbian. Let us love and all the words of the old and so moral May they be worth less than nothing to us. Sons may sit and suns may rise again. But when our brief [00:02:00] light has set, night is one long everlasting sleep. Give me 1000 kisses, 100 more, another 1000 another 100 when we've counted up, the many thousands confuses them so as not to know them all so that no enemy may cast an evil eye by knowing that there were so many kisses. Then there was Collette in the 19 hundreds, writing about married life, sexuality and the problems of a woman's struggle for independence [00:02:30] and and an erotica writing in 1992 Unhappy with Workmates Calling Me a wannabe dyke, I was still toying with getting off the bisexual fence, you see, when the movie version of Orlando came out. Tilda Swinton, the hero, played both sexes over three centuries. This was Virginia Woolf's 1928 fantastical biography presented to her lover, Lita Sack for West. Oh, I did love the [00:03:00] naughty twenties. That's why I wore my lovely beaded top for you tonight. But that's enough about me. Suffice to say that I'm pleased I finally had the courage to come out at 30 years of age after much literary input. The first of the seven that we have talking tonight is Thomas Sainsbury. He grew up in. He got a B a at Auckland Uni. He majored in English lit and theatre, and on graduating, he formed fingerprints and Teeth productions. [00:03:30] He is prolific. He's a powerhouse of creativity. He's won play markets young playwright of the year four times and has been a finalist for the Bruce Mason Award and the play market New Play award. Several plays have had seasons in London and Australia, and he was a cow writer on Madeleine Sami's fabulous Super City Series. I've had the pleasure of working with him at Garnett Station's tiny theatre, and I can say from experience. He's the sort of actor that pulls focus [00:04:00] your your turn. Hi, everyone. Thanks for the introduction. Verity. Um, so I'm Tom, um, one of and here I am talking about sexuality and discovering it. I first there's never a moment when I kind of kind of didn't know about sex. And one of my first memories involved sex. Not me having sex. But I remember getting hold of my sister's Barbie [00:04:30] doll, which was about this big and my brother's, which was about that big and hiding under my bed and making them go for it. Um, I like this was before school, and I'm like, In hindsight, I'm like, Was I just in acting? Did I see my parents having sex? And was I And was I just enacting what I saw? Which I hope it's not the case, but what I think happened was I grew up on a farm, so like sex was around me all the time. They're always like cows having sex and chickens having sex, [00:05:00] and I remember distinctly remember my father and his brother having a discussion about rugby while watching two pigs having sex. So it was quite it was quite commonplace. And also, I was known in my family because flies always chose to mate on me for some reason. So sex was always around me. And when people taught me when people taught me about sex, I kind of already knew everything. Anyway, Um, and it was also a great source of entertainment for me, and at school, me and my friends, both [00:05:30] male and female, would have great discussions. And we we we we would write this little story that we'd share with each other about the sex lives of our teachers. And, like, who was who was having sex with who. And, um, all the female teachers had, um, tampons and and stuff like that. It was just all very crass and smutty. Um, but it was never called sex, and it was never called getting it off or anything like that. We didn't really understand that term, So everyone was mating. So Mr Priest was mating. Mr. [00:06:00] Vick, I mean, it was all very ums. And when we discovered what oral sex was, we were like, This is great. So we included in our story. But instead of ORAL, it was a URAL. I wonder what oral sex is like. Um, I didn't really I wasn't really, like a little closeted homosexual boy growing up. I like I was never I never felt other or anything like that. But like in hindsight, the way that I kind of became obsessed with, [00:06:30] uh, the main character from, um, strictly ballroom or the singer who sang the They made this telly and I was kind of obsessed with these men, but I never kind of dealt with it at the time. So it wasn't like I was this, um, little kid who knew I was different, But, um, the first time I kind of came across a homosexual and literature was when we started. Uh, when we started a subject at school, we were about eight or nine. It was called keep keeping yourself safe, and it was taught throughout [00:07:00] school, and it was like they really hammered home about, I don't know, there must have been a meme quite a few molestation cases or something because they were adamant on, um, getting these little kids to kind of deal with it. And there was this one book that we had and the main villain of the piece was this uncle who, uh, who would like there would be this. He had blonde hair and he had a moustache. They always kind of had moustaches. And there was this, like, there's always a picture of him silhouetted in the bedroom door and then he would come in, come [00:07:30] in and he would touch both boys and girls. He had to be careful. You had to be on, um, watching out for this kind of behaviour. And we learned if you got any inappropriate touch and you had to go to a safe person and usually in these books it was always, um, grandmothers. So you can kind of imagine my total confusion, and it kind of didn't really sit with me. But one time I went to my grandmother's place and I just swam in a pole and we were sitting on the couch watching days of our lives, and we were eating a plate of, um, pizza flavoured shapes and we were sitting together [00:08:00] and she for, like, maybe 30 seconds, she stroked my neck and my upper back and she said, You're so smooth and that was it. And I just sat there going, Oh my God, is this And I was walking home going, Oh, my God, have I been molested? What's kind of going on? And then I was like, Who's my safe person? My grandmothers should be my safe person, but she's the one doing the molestation. So I decided to tell my sister, who was six years older than me and I explained everything, and I was kind of teary at this [00:08:30] point, and she just said, Stop in a dick. So that was the end of that, Um, my first kind of dabbling in pornography I or my first kind of erotic book that I read was this one here. I got it from home. It's called Where Did I Come From? And it's an illustrated guide, and so this is the most erotic picture that I kind of grow up with. I'll just find [00:09:00] it for you. It's this one here, so it's a mother and father. By this time, the man wants to get as close to a woman as he can because he's feeling very loving to her and to get really close. The best thing he can do is lie on top of her and put his Penis inside her into her vagina. And so I kind of look at that and I'll kind of take it all in. But it didn't really. After a while, it didn't really do anything for me. And then I got what's happening to me, which is the next in the illustrated [00:09:30] series. And I would spend like I'd flick through and I'd spend ages looking at this picture here. No, it's not that one. It's the next one, and it's It's this pictogram of of males developing from the age of 8 to 18 and like, I'd be fascinated with it and I'll look at I'll read about all the details about maturing and then so that was quite erotic, I guess when I was quite young, But then when I got a bit older, it was it filled me with anxiety [00:10:00] and I'd stand in front of the mirror going. I don't look anything like this, And he started, like my excessive exercise exercising around that time, Um and then after that, I kind of dabbled in real pornography. And I remember there was the at the corner store. I was about 11 at the time. And at our corner store there was the magazine rack and then at the very top, quite quite a reach was one porn magazine that had a red bag on it with an R 18 sign. And twice [00:10:30] I would come there and just stare at it for a minute and, like, I wonder what the shopkeeper thought. And then I'd leave. And then on the third one, when she was scooping someone some ice cream, I grabbed it, put it in my bag and then just kind of walked out. I never got in trouble for it. And I raced home and I ripped it open. And it was all just, um, a woman, just single woman by themselves, posing. I remember a lot of pearls, and, um, there was one article called, Uh, Well, there was one model, and she had an article called My Name's [00:11:00] Vanya. But don't confuse me with Uncle Vanya. And I remember that the article basically describes her turn ons and things like that. And then, um then it said, Don't confuse her with the tragic hero of, uh, Chekov's play Uncle Vanya. And I remember even as an 11 year old reading that and going, Honey, no one's going to confuse you with Uncle After that, a miracle happened. Um, I was going for one of my many runs at that time to lose weight and look like the kid in the look like the boy in the Pictogram [00:11:30] and I was running down. And then, um, just on the side of the road was a whole lot of scattered, um, pages of a porn magazine. And I've actually since found out that this is quite a common occurrence with people I don't know, some patron saying that pornography is going around leaving pages of pornography around. And this one was different from my first one and that had men and women together, which I found very fascinating. And there's also, like, little stories that they wrote about, [00:12:00] um, about erotic adventures. And I guess what happened then was the, uh, the beginning of the identification with the female rather than the male. And I remember this one story about this red head called Vicky V IC K. I and she, uh, took was taking a taxi home in Essex, and she could. She arrived at her home, but she couldn't pay for it because she didn't bring her wallet, so she had to pay for it with sexual services. And I just remember reading this, but identifying more with Vicky than the taxi [00:12:30] driver. Um, later, A. After that, Like I started reading a few books with female protagonists, they were a little bit saucy. Um, I found like Milton Boon. Not very satisfying. I thought the euphemisms of manhood and Mount of Venus just didn't cut it. And then I read Lady Chatterley's Lover. When I was 15, I got my hands on that, and I just It was a real revelation for me. I remember reading it and just identifying so much with her. It's a It's a brilliant book, and it would be one of my favourites. But I remember the descriptions of sex. [00:13:00] It was just so kind of erotic, but it was also so kind of powerful and visceral, and I just remember reading it and just thinking, yes, I can. So I'm so there. I can totally feel it. And then when I turned 16, we got the Internet. Um, so if you were and it was dial up. So if you were prepared to wait for one hour, you could watch whatever porn you wanted, so I became very educated that way. Thanks, everyone. Thank you, [00:13:30] Thomas. Wonderful. You reminded me of one of the things in In My family bookshelf. Which was the little Red Book. Yes, the little red book of all sorts of things. It was very instructive on how to masturbate. I remember. All right. Our next guest is Jen. She She has a strange combo of talents that run from school and university teaching to running a fly fishing lodge. [00:14:00] It seems entirely logical. She's now launching herself in a new direction as a crime writer with her darkly mad The Gentleman's Club, published in November last year. Jim. Thank you. Thank you, Verity. Um, the fishing lodge I ran with my partner, Heather McDonald. We had our civil union the first civil union in the central North Island 10 years ago. But I have to say, Tom, I think I'm probably old enough to be your grandmother, [00:14:30] and and I didn't come out until I was 45 and I spent the first at least 20 years of my adult life, Um, living as a straight married woman. Um, I told myself not very convincingly that I didn't need a clear gender, gender identity. It wasn't important to me. And yet I felt these terrible tingles whenever I heard that song. I looked it up this morning. [00:15:00] Apparently it was one of the most successful recordings in New Zealand ever. That was Alison Durbin singing I have loved me. A man like my Mama loved and so the The tingles came. And there I was in my wrong pond, living my heterosexual life, teaching at Auckland Girls Grammar with Julie for some of that time, and Carol and, um then probably because various lesbian friends were popping up on the hillside around my [00:15:30] pond and sort of waving at me. I knew there was another life out there. I knew that people were leading a life that was not actually denied to me, but it was something that was out there, and I thought it was really pressures. So I found myself getting involved in homosexual law reform activities. I was the middle class housewife. I was going to get a petition drawn up of people like me not not gay people, but I was going to support homosexual law reform. Um, and I did this. It was published [00:16:00] in the In the Herald. I got some people around me and we got this huge list of people not nearly as big as Jeff Bray Books list. But anyway, we did it. And then the the light came on for me. One night I went across to a ITS North Shore campus where Jeff Bray book was speaking, and I had a lot of gay friends with me and I. I came along tonight to talk about pitfalls and Prat Falls, and I thought windfalls as well. My, my, I don't know if it's a prat fall that you spend 20 years of your adult life being straight when [00:16:30] you're not really. But anyway, it's happened. Um, Jeff Bray was my first windfall, a huge fat lump of windfall because during that night the light really came on for me. I realised that the people that I was there supposedly talking about writing petitions for I should be with them, so I didn't come out immediately. I just knew that I was going to, I spent the next four years or so getting into false starts, hopeless relations, sort of things that [00:17:00] I I knew were hopeless. The married next door neighbour, the person 25 years younger than me, the, um, seriously clinically depressed, suicidal people that I knew were never going to be for me. So but But there I was having these relationships. Finally, in about 1990 I left the marriage and I was off. I was out. I was I just did it just like that in the end. But in those previous 20 years, lesbians and gays, as I said, [00:17:30] keep kept appearing and intrigued me. I thought they held that key to something precious. I wasn't homophobic at all. I just wasn't one of them. The other fascinated me, but I'd externalised it. Except that at my nice private girls school, I used to in my fourth form year kiss Maxine Taylor every Friday afternoon before we went home for our weekends. And no, it was just kiss. It was it was in public. I mean, the other saw. Nobody said Les that we just Maxine and and Jean kissed. So that was a That was just [00:18:00] my part of my life. When I was growing up in the sixties, I smuggled books into wherever I was living. I read them with a torch under the sheets. If I was sharing a room, probably lots of people did that and do that. But do they do it with books about prostitution? This is my big the biggest, for I actually believe prostitutes to be the most liberated of women. I read everything I could about Mandy Rice Davies and Christine Keeler. When Jemaine Grier's female unit was published, I came to admire hookers, the sophisticated ones driving [00:18:30] the flash cars even more they'd done it. They'd broken away from the traditional suburban, repressed devitalized life that Greer was talking about and up One of the earliest books that I took under the covers with the torch were Twilight Women Around the World, an international picture of other love by somebody called Art Leighton Hassel, who I think wrote one book and then disappeared without trace. He they were prostitutes. They were one of the of the underworld. They used to identify each other, apparently [00:19:00] by shaving a patch off their hairy thighs so that they would know who each other was. That was that. The next thing that happened was, um and under the covers with two more books. The second sex by Simone, which was a bit too fat and too for a 13 year old. Um, but the world of Suzie Wong and these two books, this is another windfall. My fa my obstetrician father, this is interesting. I don't know why he had expressed to his gardener and interest in books like that, but the garden actually gave me these two books the [00:19:30] second and the the um, the world of Suzie Wong said, Please give these to your father, so of course they came straight to me first. And the world of Suzie Wong was a fascinating book set in this Namco Hotel and there's prostitution again, and I just thought it was just fantastic. Next, I was probably about 20 I suppose, and I got hold of the happy Hooker by Xaviera Hollander. Um and I don't know whether in my mind [00:20:00] and my heart, I was one of the men watching the girls or I was one of the one of the girls, but there's a very vivid scene in there of two girls getting it on and I I was transfixed by this. Dangerous desires were looming, but the lesbian writing I got my hands on back then included Radcliffe's Hall's world of loneliness, which described another kind of repression. But there was no guilty thrill there For me. There was no hiding the book of the I just Thought It was sad and weird, and I knew she was right. People like her viewed [00:20:30] themselves as congenital inverts. They couldn't possibly be happy. They individually, all together they were always going to be a cast, so that was a sort of a It was all a way somewhere out there for me and gradually the book hiding stopped altogether. Who would think that the yearnings and enchantments of Suffolk poetry, or Frank Sarge's home erotic The hole that Jack dug with the sweaty bodies and the low life depravity of Charles Bukovsky were ringing my personal bells? Even I could barely hear them. [00:21:00] The bells rang louder when I read the Pretenders, Gwen Davis' unsubtle erotic novel about all kinds of imaginable kinds of deviant sexual behaviour, hypersexual hyperactivity everywhere, thrills on every page, I didn't hide that, and I even recommended it to a few bored housewives. And that was followed by Jane Rules unsent letter to a lesbian lover who was never quite a lover, vividly depicting New York and London and a group of friends as they searched in vain for a sustaining love was called, This Is Not [00:21:30] for You and that affirm for me that a lesbian life was all too difficult. I could relax. I was excused. I could stay in what I thought of as my side, ignoring sexually active but unfulfilled yearning on my calm leg. I have no regrets, but I would like to say I can't help being a bit curious about what would have happened, how different things might have been for me if I had found one of those clandestine American newsletters written by lesbians calling themselves The Daughters of Bullet, [00:22:00] for example, the latter, edited by Phyllis Lyon, also known as Anne Ferguson. Vice versa. Created and edited by Edith E, also known as Lisa Ben. Nice anagram there. What if I had found the price of salt? Patricia Highsmith was known as Claire Morgan. All those aliases, so many guises I can't help being curious about what would have happened if I had my wake up call much sooner than 1986. Got rid of my own guys, Perhaps the biggest of all for me in my twenties [00:22:30] instead of my forties. Thank you very much, Jim. Perhaps there's another book. Our next guest, Dangerous Desires was the title of his groundbreaking 1991 book that won the New Zealand Book Award. Among other prizes. He's been a filmmaker. Think desperate remedies. Jane Austen on acid. [00:23:00] He's looked back at the cracked plate of our Colonial past, and now he's taken some time out and brought us the same same but different festival. I believe it's Peter Wells. Thanks very much. I subtitled this or I titled This My Dirty Talk. Yeah, [00:23:30] because I'm a writer. I will read from what I've written at different times in your life. You're a different person. In 1975 I was in Paris for the first time in my life, and I was with a friend from Auckland. Or rather I wasn't with a friend from Auckland. We had got on the train together from Charing Cross, but on a stoned daffy moment. I decided that I need to get off the train and go and get something to eat. [00:24:00] It took longer than I thought. English queues and I had to run to catch the train. Perhaps I didn't explain to the guard where I was going. Or perhaps the guard was just homophobic. I found myself on the Hitchcockian nightmare of a train going in the wrong direction. Tim, that was the name of my friend was on the train to Folston. Whereas I was fatally on the train to Dover. We had no way of getting in touch with each other. We hadn't planned [00:24:30] what hotel we were staying in in Paris. The following day I crossed the channel and settled into the sad business of being in Paris City of love. But with not with my friend, then remarkably like something out of a dream and something you would expect in a city the size of Auckland. But not in Paris. I saw Tim walking towards me, looking just as lonely and miserable as I was. He spotted me just as I spotted him. We shrieked [00:25:00] like two bars, as was our want 1000 tasteful Parisian eyebrows were raised simultaneously as 1000 pair of eyes consigned us to the oblivion marked as with an added black mark of But we couldn't have cared less. We were two crazy and and in a place we both delighted in calling Paris France as it was always [00:25:30] called in American sitcoms. This was a reflection of the fact so much of our culture at the time in New Zealand was really imported through films or books or television. Maybe that was the reason Tim and I talked to one another and totally phoney accents. One of these accents was American Deep South, as spoken by Vivian Lee and Street Car Named Desire, which has been mentioned several times over the today. The other was Scottish, as spoken by Maggie Smith [00:26:00] in the prime of Miss Jean Brodie. So we just walked around talking to each other, either in deep Southern accents or Scottish accents, wildly hopeless accents. Why the accents? I've often wondered this, maybe because the world around us appeared so phoney. We thought we were best actors in a crazy sitcom we hadn't invented and didn't fit with them. Or maybe our own native voice was too tender, too unused, too naked [00:26:30] to be trusted. Tim wasn't out, so I knew he was gay. I also knew he befriended me because I was out. He probably thought I knew what I was doing. I didn't. I was making it up as I went along, but we shared something really, really important. I knew even then I was going to be a writer, and he was a writer who had done columns and hot licks which preceded Rip It Up magazine. Then he'd been adopted by Brian Fairy when he came to New Zealand, [00:27:00] which Tim parlayed into working for Brian Eno in London. Later, he would become famous as Tim Blanks of Fashion TV, editor at large of style dot com, And I'm sure he'd hate this super unstylish version of his first trip to Paris. But at this stage, it was just my friend Tim Melancholic. His father had died probably five years earlier, and he was in love with a bisexual boy who tormented him. Crawling [00:27:30] Jim was also very funny, and we were, I guess, girlfriends in a way, enjoying our first time together in Paris, France, really without much money between us. But what is this to do with sex? Within an hour or so of us meeting up almost in a spirit of celebration, I expertly shoplifted an American pulp porn novel in one of the pawn shops we went into Yes, shoplifted. I thought I was being out [00:28:00] of a feast journal a phase of my life I have long left behind. I swear, Carol, The moment we got the book, we cracked its spine open and took turns reading out loud and loud, an accent of voices, paragraphs of utterly startling obscenity. I won't do the accent, but this is just an example. I was hypnotised. The bastard was either a witch or a goddamn vampire who lived on fuck juice instead of blood. [00:28:30] This time the tunnel was reversed. The wrong end of the telescope was the right one. He started to look even bigger in real life, and his asshole was starting to feel like it could swallow me whole and one reverse movement. Like a fleshly vacuum cleaner. The book was full of startling images as well as amazing language that's strained to evoke sexual action. IC CCCC you [00:29:00] would run over several lines of print rising into capitals as it got near the point of no return write. A hard cop was dated in 1973 and was just on the threshold of the macho movement that would take over the gay male world immediately. So the book is drenched and, as it says, 200% man to man action. Raunchy and full of set pieces like a full on orgy and a sauna, a rape fantasy with a group of super hung black men. But it also [00:29:30] encompassed little nuggets of real life wisdom We recognised from life in Auckland. Quote. When you achieve official status as a queer in our town, you automatically lose your claim to membership of the human race. It was written by someone called Allegedly Jed Cox. Another author was Peter Peer. This led Jed Cox. This Jed Cox was clearly highly literate. The narrative was actually structured in a complex in a complex and sophisticated [00:30:00] way, with two journals commentating on each other like an 18th century epistolary novel. Much later, I found out Chris Christopher Isherwood often used his downtime to write porn, and I wondered, Write a hard cop was printed on the cheapest S paper by a San Diego publisher. It comes from a time when there was virtually no image based pornography, very little film, no video at all, maybe just Standard eight film, [00:30:30] and the book and the magazine trade covertly carried a cargo of only slightly underground porn. You had to be over 21 and sign a document to get it posted within the US. Why, out of light in reading the book out loud? It was a joke against the super French, really, against those polished Parisians who went out of their way not to understand the barbarian tongue of English. So, of course, they couldn't possibly acknowledge that their ears [00:31:00] were now receiving a tidal wave of gorged genitalia and associated Avia a bit like the dildo being thrown at dildo Bains, a K, a Stephen Joyce, sexual politics and action. The French were caught in the dilemma of having to pretend they simply didn't understand. Just as Tim and I had to pretend we weren't incredibly interested in the sexual logistics and athletics being described, the fact was, neither Tim nor I were actually sexually [00:31:30] experienced at all. And this book, which we took delight in reading aloud and ridiculing was actually quite instructive on a sort of mechanical level, which we knew very little about. As we walked along the streets of the city of love, reading aloud and mock deep Southern or mock Scottish accents braying with laughter, we were silently instructing ourselves on all sorts of stuff we needed to know. [00:32:00] I'm sure it's not the first or the last time. Pornography has been used to learn about sexual techniques. I've always been very grateful for this book, which on one level is just a piece of brazen porn whose whole point is to arouse you and get you off, but which was actually quite complex in the way it was written. Talked of moods and feelings, tried to describe sexual feelings, which God knows as a writer I know are very difficult to translate into words. [00:32:30] And in a way that was absolutely typical for two writers. Neither of us met the flesh and blood man of our dreams in Paris, France, City of love. We were too busy with our noses buried in a book, and I find that so, Thank you, Peter, for carrying on our [00:33:00] themes of shoplifting and pornography. Her real name is her alias is Diesel Dyke poet. She is a performance poet, winner of the title of Riki Poet for 2010 and 2012 and also the winner of poetry. Idol, 2015. Diesel Dike poet has performed at Heroes Out West, which, sadly, does not exist anymore, and [00:33:30] Dykes on Ms at Garnet Station, which does exist. Still, she has a mass collection of over 700 poems. She is a psychologist by profession but prefers to be a spoken word artist and writer fighting. Firstly, I have to say that I've never been at a venue where I've had so many Ex-girlfriends turn up. [00:34:00] This poem is entitled woman or girlfriend. When finally I shake loose this darkness, I'll be brief in your morning. You'll feel me and the air band pull of the moon as you breathe in the sunrise. Vapours from sacred water shall rise in the altar. That is your mind. I'll be the conscience staring back at you from the mirror, dressed in tuxedo, black with tails [00:34:30] or like the sun and the moon, the dimensions between a woman and a girlfriend are obvious. a girlfriend will cause your heart to flutter. A woman will gaze straight through you as she's oozing pheromones, causing your heart to skip beats Every time you even breathe in her direction, a girlfriend will give you butterfly and French kisses. A woman will take your tongue, [00:35:00] slip and slide it, melt it your lips like candy floss as she merely jits her way into hyperactive diesel space. The girlfriend will come into your yeah, that's right, your house and like, well, she'll do things but a woman. A woman will come into your life. Clean up your bad habits along with your bad banking behaviour, too the girlfriend, or help you find pieces to a puzzle. You know, putting some kind of like dangerous [00:35:30] connection together about you and her. But a woman will help you find peace in your soul, putting your relationship back together with you and your goddesses. The girlfriend will take off all of her clothes and tell you that's right. She'll tell you to have sex with her or make love to her or something like that. But a woman a woman will take off all of her fears. Lay her pride along with her scent between the sheets and lingering on your pillow, she'll permit you [00:36:00] to be with her. She's reconsidering or deconstructing new approaches to ending homophobia, racism, sexism and all bigotry you see, because her love me making is an act of revolution. I've been tripping over girls hopelessly like I've been tripping over my untied shoelaces, digging the concrete reality that is girlfriend space blindfolding myself from Cairo to solo to Brighton. But I'm sorry. I'm just gonna say this. Girlfriends are for wannabe 30 [00:36:30] something year olds and or younger. I mean, you know, you take them home and you introduce them to the you say, meet the new misses. But woman yeah, especially my woman was the reason I could sleep night. She was the reason my heartbeat could make fun to sound like symphonies. She was the professional who made me realise the others were just unpaid work without retirement. Satisfaction guaranteed. And I'm not finished yet. OK, girlfriends. [00:37:00] Ah, amazing. But it's kind of like a crutch about to become your cage. But a woman a woman's got the Earth's backbone and the pull of the moon. You know, I think most of us tend to settle for packages a lot less than what we think we have. But I've been dressing myself in front of the mirror long enough to know what looks good on me [00:37:30] and what doesn't. I guess you can tell that my, um kind of, uh, narrative is Butch. And I make no apologies for that. Um, last night I talked about the, uh I guess my first my early experiences with [00:38:00] With Women with With the concept Of Of Loving my own. And I was only four. And it was an electrifying experience, and the television screen got turned off. But, um, that that energy, you know, that energy that you have between someone is is incredible. And I think [00:38:30] that in in the mainstream, in the mainstream narrative, um, it's so controlled. And I think that's something that we don't have. We don't have a narrative about what we should be or how we should behave. I mean, if we look at the constructs that we have now, it's it's incredible, and it's amazing. [00:39:00] And so, um, I come along here to support um, same same, but different because of that. OK, so I wanna give a big, um, out to the trans community. Big out to my own community as lesbian and a big out to the gay community as well and to the LGBT QIAP community. So, uh, [00:39:30] someone asked me, What does the a P mean at the end of the LGBTI LGI a and OK, [00:40:00] all right. Thank you. Thank you. Next. Nick Jones is one of the new voices being introduced this year. He's been studying creative writing at a UT and last year scooped up the prize for best graduate student. He was the finest at the New Zealand writers College short story competition. Tonight, he's going to be reading a short excerpt from his untitled coming of age novel [00:40:30] set in a small town with hallucinatory overtones. Um, so I'm gonna read a, um, shortened down chapter, Um, from a novel that, um, was just introduced. Uh, I am reading from a female perspective, so forgive me if I get it wrong. Um, if I get it wrong, tell me, like, afterwards and then I can fix it. Um, so basically, it just revolves around a character [00:41:00] named Susan, um, as a child, discovering that, um, the boy that she has a crush on isn't like every other boy. Once, Adam was in the centre of things once he was in my dreams. Kids have silly crushes, silly crushes on silly kids. But he was all effeminate and clueless to my attractions, the way little boys tend to be. My memory paints a picture of the child back then. Wispy hair, [00:41:30] fine, dark and straight. Long lashes, pale skin, cute freckles dotting his cheeks and nose. He's stubble on his chin nowadays, but that little boy is still there. The summer of 95. It's vague in the picture. It paints yet still beautiful, still innocent. Mum and dad were from out of town with cardboard boxes carrying our lives. Inside, we moved into the neighbourhood and into a small white wooden place away from [00:42:00] the city. The moving van was in the driveway. Mum and me, we were unpacking boxes in the vacant living room. Dad was helping the driver carry furniture, dropping it all in the front yard. Unpacking boxes. Wasn't my ideal way of spending the morning trying to escape out the front door away to explore, Mum shouted at me, Susan, Lucy fence and you get your little butt back in here. My pace quickened head down. Looking at my feet, she continued. You're nearly six years old now. Girl time. [00:42:30] You carried your weight. Her voice echoed in the empty house behind me as the door closed. The first day at a new school is always hard, especially when you arrive late in the term me up front of the class like a coming of age film teacher's hand on my back. Now everyone, this is Susan. She's new blonde little girls and pigtails titter to each other behind whispering hands. I sat in the back at Interval. This kid came up the first one. Hi, he [00:43:00] said. I'm Adam with him, A curious looking boy, dark skinned and astonishing blue eyes, he smiled nervously at me and nudged his friend. Oh, and this is Tyler. Tyler lived just around the corner from the school in a state-owned home. He was polite and a little shy. The two sort of adopted me. It was a relief to have friends again. Weeks went by, and most mornings a knock on Adam's front door would announce my presence, this little girl blushing when he'd open it up and invite me inside. [00:43:30] Adam was my prince charming. The problem was, he wasn't into it. It wasn't just in the way that he ignored me or how he blushed. Whenever a certain boy spoke to him, there was something else in me, a voice which started to whisper that Adam was different. All the other boys our age were plucking up the courage to ask girls out for the end of year disco. But Adam kept to himself for weeks. Whenever Adam began a sentence with Susan, my ears would prick up, hoping desperately to hear [00:44:00] the full sentence, hoping to hear those words. Susan, will you go with me? I just don't get why he won't ask me, I said. Tyler blushed. He flipped through the pages of his book. Maybe he's just not interested in the disco, but why not? The elderly librarian looked up at this and shushed us. I don't know, he said, My legs curled up until my knees were planted beneath my chin, my face buried into my jeans, groaning, annoyed, a dull thud as Tyler's book slowly closed. [00:44:30] I was gonna go with Julie, he said. Cool, I replied, No, I mean I was gonna go with Julie. But hey, if it means that much to you, I'll say no to her. Tyler. Now listen to me. If it means that much to you, I'll I'll say no to her. And I don't know, I. I could go with you. Oh, no. Go with Julie. I said I don't want your night to be lame because Adam won't ask me. Oh, I'm gonna ask him instead, I decided. Why can't the girl ask the guy? I'm gonna [00:45:00] Yeah, of course. OK. Tyler put his arm around my shoulder and squeezed me a little. There's no rule. The next morning, when Adam walked into art, I glared at him. Adam McCormick. I hissed as he sat next to me. You will take me to the disco, whether you want to or not. He looked like I'd slapped him. What? Another glare? Yeah, sure. Uh, OK. And that was that. School discos suck ass, especially when they're full of 10 and [00:45:30] 11 year olds. Everyone's just standing around awkwardly, too afraid to dance with their dates. These geeky kids getting on sugar rushes from the free mini soda bottles on supply. Cool kids are grinding one another, mimicking what they've seen on TV. Adam had arrived on my doorstep in a dress shirt and pants. He looked handsome. I smiled. Wow, he laughed when he saw me. You were wearing a dress. My smile turned into a frown. And we linked arms and walked [00:46:00] down to the school. Halfway through the night, Adam disappeared from the brightly decorated hall. He must have slipped off while my hands busied themselves with paper plates and cakes at the snack table. It had only been a few minutes, but he was gone. Seated on one of the chairs off to the side, Tyler looked glumly up at his date, dancing with all her friends. He saw me watching and shrugged. Hey, there was a chair next to him waiting for me. You look beautiful, Susan. He said [00:46:30] Thanks, Ty. You look cool too. Hey, have you seen Adam anywhere? I've lost him, Adam. Oh, right. Um, nah. Maybe he's outside. The side door exit led out to the basketball court. Some kids were laughing out on the concrete. It sounded wrong. And then there was a shout from behind some trees. Get off me, Faggot! Behind those trees. Jason, this guy who played football, leaped away from the park bench. He'd been sitting on. A second boy stood up. He was [00:47:00] all nervous and confused. It was Adam, Jason, he whimpered. His tone was muffled. He said something else that I couldn't that couldn't be heard. And the older boy suddenly barged forward, his fist twisting Adam's dress shirt up around the collar. He slammed Adam against one of the trees. He responded in a violent whisper, then pulled his other fist back and punched Adam hard in the face. Adam fell to the ground, blood spurning from his nose. Adam, I rushed forward as he crawled to his feet. He saw me standing [00:47:30] there. Among the other kids who had heard all the commotion, his face was cold and empty. The blood dripped down and over his upper lip. Stay the fuck away from me, Jason said before storming off. I bent over and helped Adam up and pulled him back to the bench so he could sit down. Tyler stepped out of the hall to check on the noise. He saw me with Adam, then the rest of the crowd staring. He blanked for a moment, then shouted, Hey, everyone, they're giving away free movie tickets inside. [00:48:00] He nodded at me and then stepped aside As the kids rushed back in the doors. He followed him behind them. What happened? I asked. Adam, wiped his bloody nose on his sleeve and tried to stand up. Let me go, he said. He got to his feet eventually and began walking out of the school gates and onto the footpath. Adam, wait. Why did that kid hit you? I asked. He stopped. Looked at me. There were tears in his eyes. I'm gay, OK? His lower lip trembled. [00:48:30] I like other boys. Devastation erupted in my body. Tears formed in my eyes but were blinked out before he could notice all of my wasted affection set up on my chest. Jason, he said he liked me. He said he wanted to kiss me, but someone saw us. I guess he thought he could hide it if he smashed me. Adam dropped to the curb and buried his head in his hands. Now everybody will know he was right. Everybody did know the next Monday [00:49:00] at school, Jason, he invented this whole story. He told everyone Adam had lured him away to talk about sports, he said. Once they were alone, Adam had tried to force Jason to kiss him out there in the dark, we'd pass by groups of kids at the school cafeteria, me, Adam and Tyler. They'd whisper amongst themselves. Words like queer and faggot bounce through the classrooms in between classes. When we were grabbing our books, kids would play jokes [00:49:30] and stuff. Adam's locker with extra thick anal condoms. Gotta keep safe fags. Someone would shout as the plastic strips fell from his locker to the floor. Thanks, Adam would reply, teasing back. I'll need them for when I fuck your dad. My crush on Adam went dormant, only to be woken up twice during those teenage years. A text message here and there suggested that my heart may have had a chance. He even kissed me one night when we were drunk under the moon, but sobered. [00:50:00] Those events were quickly ignored. Once Adam was in the centre of things. Once he was in my dreams. Thank you. I think so. Certainly the, um, discos I remember weren't quite that juicy. Yeah, Grant. Robin Robertson is the finance spokesperson [00:50:30] for the Labour party and a rainbow MP Wait, wait. There's more for Wellington Central since 2008. He writes his own speeches, people. He contributes to blogs. And he grew up in Dunedin, and he has flown to Auckland to have a thoroughly gay weekend. Uh uh. Thank you for that introduction. [00:51:00] Uh, can I start by? Um, just, um, congratulating Peter and everybody involved in in the festival. I. I think this is a tremendous, uh, tremendous initiative and one that, you know, I really hope grows and grows and grows. Uh, over time. So so, Well done. I really mean that. When I was thinking about what? To what to talk about today. I. I ran through my list of of coming out fiction literature and a little bit like Stevens [00:51:30] in some way. The farmers catalogue, um, was a very big part of of my coming out. That's farmers the, um, the shop rather than anything else. Uh, and that figured large, but I didn't think I could dwell on that very far. As did, um, the famous five books. I felt hugely vindicated in slightly later years when, um, the comic strip troupe in the UK produced the five go Mad Things. And Julian was this very buff, um, older brother [00:52:00] in the family. And that kind of resonated with where I'd got, um, not so much in the five go mad. Where there was Uncle Quentin who was always described as the screaming homosexual Uncle Grendon, which kind of sense to me, So I could have talked about that tonight, and I could have talked about, um, other books, and it would have almost become a bit fan boyish because it would have involved Peter and Steven and, um, and all sorts of people who really meant a lot to me as I grew up. Um, the tales of the city books, which I stole off my mother's bookshelf, [00:52:30] um, to read were were hugely important. And I thought I was Michael and and I. I went through all of that. Um, but I've actually decided to do quite possibly the most preposterous thing that a politician could do as the only non writer on a panel. I've written a short story for tonight, and you all get to be the first people to hear it. So it, um, as they say in the in the stories. It's based on true events. Uh, and, [00:53:00] uh, it does resonate about my growing up in Dunedin, and it's called Operation City Bookshop. Todd's history teacher, Mr Snow, had said that every successful military campaign had three elements planning, preparation and perspiration. Todd certainly had the letter in bucket loads as he ran down Beach Road to get the number seven bus to town. He had done his planning and preparation, but nothing could be taken [00:53:30] for granted. Todd hustled past the suburban shops open for Friday late night. Did they know Mr Lang of Lang's butchery? Stared out the window, his chubby eyes meeting Todd's. He quickly turned to his assistant and then back to Todd, and possibly Todd Thought smiled. Next door at the video shop, Todd could see Mr Lee, the owner of Ross Lee, at his counter. He moved even quicker. Things had got [00:54:00] awkward with Mr Lee since the day Todd had rented boys in the band. He had taken it up to the counter between Ghostbusters and back to the future, but they were new releases and had to be run up at the other till, or something like that. Mr. Lee had said he asked Todd a lot of questions about boys in the band and why it had caught Todd's eye. Todd talked about music and bands, but not about boys. Mr Lee said Boys in the band wasn't taken out very often and that [00:54:30] Todd could keep it an extra week. And he smiled in a way that Todd later learned to describe as knowingly. Mr. Lee was on the PT A with Todd's dad. So when Todd took the video back the next day, he told Mr Lee's son, who was on the counter, that he didn't like it very much. Why should I care? Ross Lee, vid E junior grunted safely across the road, and at the stop, Todd saw the bus lights appear in the distance. He looked into the window of Helen's hair design. [00:55:00] Helen waved out to Todd. He half waved back. He wondered why Helen had become a hairdresser. She always kept her hair as a military crop cat, and she only ever wore jeans and a plaid shirt, which was really different from most of the other people in the neighbourhood. Helen didn't know his plans. No one could know Todd's plans Operation City Bookshop was Todd's. The plan was simple. Take the bus to town, go to City Bookshop, make his purchase and get home all before the last bus and any need [00:55:30] for parental involvement. The first stage of the plan was simple. City Bookshop was just a five minute walk across Queens Gardens from the exchange. Todd had practised all of this the week before. Mr Snow would have called this covert reconnaissance. He'd gone to the shop and confidently walked up to the counter and said in a voice loud enough to ensure most of the shop would hear. Do you have a cricket section? This was an instantly believable alibi. Todd loved cricket. He had a poster of New [00:56:00] Zealand's best bowler on his bedroom wall. The player had a moustache, and the top two buttons of his shirt were undone, revealing a mat of dark. Here. Todd thought he looked like Tom Selleck, another member of the test team, had recently started advertising for jockey underwear. Todd had a copy of that, too, in a drawer beside his bed. In any case, on the reconnaissance mission, the old man behind the counter, who looked like a poet Todd had studied at school motioned him to the back of the shop. Todd already knew where the books [00:56:30] were, but waited and made sure he sought confirmation. He was heading in the right direction. Deception was another word Mr Snow had used talking about war. The sports books were in the corner next to a section called Lifestyles. Todd didn't know what that meant, but he had seen what he needed to three magazines stuffed awkwardly into the end of the shelf. The title wasn't fully visible, but the word man in Capital Letters was, and more to the point, the picture of the naked bodies [00:57:00] of two men, locked and embrace, presented itself boldly planning and preparation. Todd thought, as he got off the bus on Friday night, were his friends. It was dark now. He'd chosen his outfit carefully. The long trench coat he bought from the op shop and the woollen tramping hat made him far less recognisable. He thought that that really is true, too. The old man was at the counter. Todd went by without a word. His plan was simple. [00:57:30] Pick up a crooked almanack to act as cover, pick up the magazines and straight to the counter. The coast was clear. Todd moved confidently. Planning check, preparation check. Perspiration, triple check. He paused at the cricket almanack cricketing. Tom Selleck was on the cover, a pleasant surprise two steps forward, and he reached out to get the magazines. All the military precision in the world goes nowhere without intelligence, Mr Snow [00:58:00] had said. How could 1 50 page magazine cost $20? Todd noticed that the price in US dollars was $3. 50. Todd had always wanted to live in America in battle. Expect the unexpected. Mr Snow had said. Todd folded the magazine under the Almanack and kept walking for the first time in the history of City Bookshop. There was a queue at the counter. Todd studied the cover of the Almanack Cricketing. Tom Selleck was in his delivery [00:58:30] stride, every muscle straining captured a second from Release Todd. Mr Snow Cricket shrieked Todd, thrusting the almanack towards Mr Snow. A game for gentlemen, Mr Snow said, not looking at the almanack, but now fully staring at the magazine with its title exposed in block capitals, man on man present perspiration had now beaten planning and preparation. [00:59:00] What kind of history teacher hangs around in bookshops. On a Friday night, Todd fumed, he reached the front of the queue and held the book and magazine in one hand and 2 $20 notes in the other, defiantly not turning around. The bookshop owner peruse the books as if he had never seen them before, lifting one up and then the next he may as well have shouted out, We've got a gay one here, Todd. And then, just as he had planned, the owner took his money, returned [00:59:30] a handful of coins and the books in a brown paper bag. Todd walked out into the cold winter year. The unexpected import costs of Man on Man meant a long walk home. He considered tapping the public phone in the gardens to get a ride from his mother. But there would have been a major diversion from the plan, and he had had enough of those for this mission. Man on man took pride of place in Todd's bedside draw. He made sure to study the cricket almanack as well over the weekend in case Mr Snow quizzed [01:00:00] him about it on Monday. But he didn't and amazingly, he didn't say anything to Todd, either. The unit on World War Two finished, and Mr Snow started to get very excited about the Kings and queens of Tudor and Stuart, England. After a few days, Todd declared Operation City Bookshop a success and moved on to his next mission, a far less risky affair. He had found a classified ad in the newspaper where you could order man on man by post. He was expecting [01:00:30] the first issue in the mail any time he had planned it out. He knew the Post is times, and he he had prepared to be there, and he had cover. If anyone asked what this was all about, he said, I have no idea how a parcel for Mr Snow could end up being delivered to me. It's the beginning of a new career, [01:01:00] a big thanks to the very entertaining and and illuminating um, speakers tonight. Also, many thanks to the same same festival sponsors a UT pride, gabber, Ga N Simpson, the Wallace Foundation and Creative New Zealand I. I remember attending the very first Auckland Readers and Writers Festival planned by Peter Wells and Stephanie Johnson, and I'm I'm chuffed to have been asked to be involved in this inaugural [01:01:30] literary event. So thank you very much. Peter, um, books are for sale in the foyer and thank you to Carol for from the women's bookshop for always being there for us. So thank you, everybody. Can I just, um, thank you all for coming along to this very beginning of the, uh, festival. It's been tremendous. Um, ride the whole way through. Um, I. I would [01:02:00] like to give a special thanks to Julie Watson, who has really been the person who's held it all together. Um, all the way through. Um, so thank you to you. The audience to thank you so much. Thank you. So.

IRN: 1000
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ATL REF: OHDL-004407
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089701
TITLE: #The Future - Same Same But Different writers festival
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Amanaki Prescott-Faletau; Aroha Awarau; Josephine Stewart Tewhiu; Kiana Rivera; Nathan Joe; Sam Brooks; Victor Rodger
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; 2010s; Amanaki Prescott-Faletau; Aotearoa New Zealand; Aroha Awarau; Asian; Auckland; Auckland Theatre Company; Bats Theatre; Black Faggot (play); Bootycandy (play); Christchurch; David Henry Hwang; Dunedin; Giovanni's Room (book); Girl on a Corner (play); Harvey Fierstein; Hawera; Hollywood; Inky Pinky Ponky (play); James Baldwin; Jennifer Ward-Lealand; Jill Soloway; John Leguizamo; Josephine Stewart Tewhiu; Katie Wolfe; Kiana Rivera; La Ronde (play); Lightbox Online TV; Like Sex (play); Little Earthquakes (album); Looking (tv); Luncheon (play); Marilyn Waring; Michael Cunningham; Mike Chunn; My Name is Gary Cooper (play); Māori; NZ Truth; Nathan Joe; Next Big Thing (Auckland Theatre Company); Niue; Officer 27 (play); Pakeha; Pasifika; Patricia Highsmith; Patrick Swayze; Peter Wells; Play It Strange; Playwrights b4 25; Puzzy (play); Queer as Folk (tv); Robert Burns Fellowship (University of Otago); Robert O'Hara; Sam Brooks; Samoa; Secret Life of Sausages (play); Simpson Grierson; Susan Sontag; Taranaki; Tennessee Williams; The Adventures of Priscilla; Queen of the Desert (film); The Hours (film); The Lumiere Reader; The Pantograph Punch; To Wong Foo - Thanks for Everything! Julie Newmar (film); Toni Morrison; Torch Song Trilogy (play); Tori Amos; Transparent (tv); Tusiata Avia; Victor Rodger; Wesley Snipes; Yellow Face (play); Young and Hungry Festival of New Theatre; acceptance; acting; arts; boxes; coming out; community; diversity; drag; fakaleiti; family; gay; ghost writing; hate; journalism; lesbian; love; magazines; masculinity; mixed-race; movies; music; musicals; parenting; people of colour; poetry; popular culture; rugby; storytelling; television; theatre; trans; transgender; women; writing
DATE: 13 February 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Auckland University of Technology, 55 Wellesley Street East, Auckland
CONTEXT: Audio from the session: #The Future.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm Victor. Roger. And this is, um this is hashtag the future, Um, a session that I curated to look at some of the newer voices, Um, on the Auckland and beyond. Uh, theatre scene. Um, for those of you who don't know me, um, I'm primarily a playwright. I'm currently the Robert Burns fellow at Otago, Uh, and best known for my play black faggot and, um, helped, uh, [00:00:30] get off the ground. A play that's on at the moment. Finishing tonight's, um, pussy co-written by Kiki, who is, uh, some Filipino writer. And actually, Kiki, I'll just ask you to come up and join the join the crew, and we're missing one transgender Tongan who will miraculously appear at some stage, probably in high heels. This is just gonna be very relaxed. I wish. It's so hot. I wish we could be doing this in a pool one of those pools with the bar in the middle that you just, [00:01:00] um, go and sit, sit on and drink. But we're not. We're doing it here, and that's that's cool, too. I'm just gonna briefly introduce, um, our panellists, um and then just go. We're just gonna have a little bit of casual banter. Oh, well, I just want to acknowledge Peter Wells. Thank you for saying same, but different. I think this is such a great festival. And, um, I need to acknowledge Simpson Grierson lovely lawyers who sponsored this session, and, um FYI. I think I speak for all of us when I say that we hate filling [00:01:30] out creative New Zealand funding applications. So if you can help us, please talk to us afterwards. Um, so, yeah, I'm gonna kick off with introducing first, um, Kiki, who is, As I said, Samoan Filipina, based in Hawaii, and pussy, which has enjoyed great success this week as part of Pride's, um, as her first play, which I helped get up and running my only, uh, we have next to her a a [00:02:00] of Maori and descent, hailing from, uh, long time magazine journalist and, um, relatively new playwrights. Next to him, we have young Nathan Jo, who is like myself from Christchurch. Um, he is the baby of the panel. He literally is hashtag the most future ahead of him. Uh, and next to Nathan, we have Josephine Stewart, uh, proud [00:02:30] Westie, Uh, and, uh, author of three plays. Um, and next to her, we have Sam Brooks, Um, absolutely the most prolific of the playwrights here tonight. And, uh, Sam is also an Auckland, and next to me, a woman I consider my daughter naughty daughter. Uh, this is, uh, a, uh uh to which is the Tongan [00:03:00] for and, uh, A and I have worked together on a couple of plays, uh, with her as an actress, but a last year wrote her first play with, um, another writer called Inky Pinky poky an award-winning clave, which we will get to in due time. So thank you guys all for coming and thank you guys all for coming. So I'm gonna start asking my questions now. Right? OK, so, um, I just thought I would [00:03:30] ask, And I'm very mindful when I do this session of a play that I read recently called Booty Candy by African American, um, playwright Robert O'Hara. And there's a scene set at a writers' festival. And if you'd read it, you'll know that if I if it goes like this, I'll stab my eyes out. Um, so keep it light. Um, one thing I'm curious of, because now at the grand old age of 46. I am hashtag father time, which is amazing. Um, [00:04:00] you know, I think things have changed since I started writing in the the mid nineties. Um, and we're all here because we are part of that alphabetical spectrum from L to I think it's I and right. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Um, and I just wondered about boxes because, you know, um, I got put into the Pacific box. I mixed. I got put into a Pacific box. I guess I've been put into kind of [00:04:30] a gay box, particularly since black faggot. But, you know, I just think of myself as a writer who happens to be gay as opposed to a gay writer, and that's a subtle difference. And I just wondered, Is that a question that even occurs to you guys or or not? And I'm gonna ask you first. Well, I think I'm the same, but as you as a gay writer that writes plays. But I think also my, um, 10 years experience as a journalist, um, writing various varieties of [00:05:00] each week. Um, from celebrity stories to kind of big news stories. Um, you know you're writing, um, a variety of things. And you never think about whether, um as a journalist, whether you're gay or new or Maori, you just have to do that, Um, because it's your job. So in terms of playwriting, it's kind of the same that I apply into as a playwright. Um, you know, I just write what I feel and what comes to me at that point in time and what I want to say. Um, [00:05:30] I've written two plays, um, one called office 27 about, um, the aftermath of a police shooting. And my first play was luncheon, Um, about, um, Academy Award winning actresses meeting up for a lunch, um, before the awards. Very diverse. Um, topics. Um, so, you know, um but what I can say in terms of my gay experience, I think what kind of helped is, um, you know, I think we're all very funny gay people. [00:06:00] I think we're just quite funny. I think it comes from Well, for me personally, it comes from being brought up in the eighties and being brought up in and being kind of lonely. And then it's just kind of the humour that you kind of, um, develop to protect yourself? Um, yeah, coping mechanism. You're always the funny one in your group. Um and you know, some of some of our humour comes from a lot of hardship. So I think, um, if there is a kind of common theme that I could connect to [00:06:30] my and my plays is that despite what issues I tackle, there's always some lightness. There's always some humour because it kind of reflects the kind of upbringing that I had and and the things that I did to cope. Um, you know, luncheon is very funny. You've got five women competing for an Oscar in a room, so that kind of lends itself to the camp humour. That could be just five drag queens. You know, kind of, um, that kind of funny. I mean, office 27. Although it was about a place shooting, um, and the mother trying [00:07:00] to cope with that grief, it was really important. So for me to have a little bit of lightness because our lives have been full of the extremes. And I think that's what in terms of my experiences growing up gay and being AAA proud a gay person. I think that's what my plays bring. Um, so you don't necessarily have to write about the gay experience. But, you know, there is something there that, um, you know, your life. Um, experience has actually, um, [00:07:30] uh, influenced Josephine. I funny, actually, I was talking to Sam about this outside. I think the box is very generational. I think your generation kind of took one for the team, you say? But in a sense that you know, we don't I. I don't know if it's so relevant anymore. It was a little bit yes, but like the more I read particularly [00:08:00] but from younger writers and stuff, like a lot of what I'm reading online, it's not It just doesn't matter. Yeah, and no, I don't know what what is mainstream. I don't know. I think it's subjective. So And, you know, as a writer, I identify as a lesbian woman, So everything I write is gonna be from the perspective of the lesbian woman, regardless, [00:08:30] if there are lesbian women characters in it or not. So I don't like to put myself in a box because I'm half half Maori, so I hate even having to choose a race on a, you know, filling out a form, especially when it makes me pick one. Pisses me off. I just draw another box, and I just do it. Don't make me choose. I just let me be. But yeah, Does that sort of Yeah, absolutely. Do you concur, [00:09:00] Sam, With what Josephine was saying? I think that when someone is like, oh, OK, like, I use only this X box or this? Oh, it's only, uh, for the box is for the person and not for the subject. Yeah. Yeah, if that made any sense whatsoever. Yeah, OK, eventually [00:09:30] say yes. No, thank you, sir. Yeah. What about you, Nathan? Well, I find it's harder because, um, it's the, I suppose balancing of different boxes. I mean, I've always, um when I start a play or any sort of writing, I'm always questioning whether I feel the need to write from a gay perspective or a Asian perspective or both. And it's like, Oh, no, this is the time I wrote a gay play and this is the time I wrote an Asian play and I feel bad for neglecting one of them [00:10:00] in as a general rule. I find it's not too productive trying to fill those boxes, so I end up just writing whatever I want. But there's always a sort of latent, um, feeling of responsibility, I think in the back of my mind. And I guess that sort of plagues me more than, um, I suppose, feeling that I need to write a particular sort of, um, play. But, um, I don't think there are that many players that [00:10:30] deal or feel the need to deal with, um, gay subjects. So head on these days, um, we tend to be more. I wouldn't say peripheral, but, um, just we exist. Matter of fact, which I think is nice. I disagree. I think maybe there are a lot of plays about gay men, but there aren't very many about gay women. Pussy is the first show I've seen in years about gay women, and it's not only about gay women, it's about women. In general. I felt like it was a celebration of vaginas [00:11:00] and women's sexuality. It wasn't just about it's hard to be gay. That's the thing that I keep getting told through theatre and film is that coming out is really hard coming out is really hard, But I wanna have a kid with my partner one day. I have no idea what to turn, what it means to be a lesbian, to have a baby or raise a child. I've got no reference in terms of popular culture for that. And I refer to popular culture for the way I live my life. You know, I'm in my early thirties. It's been around me my whole life. I can't help it. [00:11:30] Sorry. No I. I totally agree, I. I agree with that aspect, and I am sort of viewing it from a very particular lens. When I say that I've over, I am sort of overexposed to a very particular sort of gay cinema or storytelling, and I guess that's what I feel is unnecessary to explore anymore. It's the sort of coming out stories and the I hate being gay stories or the, um, in the closet stories, which you know there is still a lot of validity in those [00:12:00] stories, but we have an excess of them and you're right. It's the a lot of the female gay stories, especially of persons of colour and a lot of the gay male stories of persons of colour are still, you know, require a lot of exploration and need a lot of exploration since you brought it up, Josephine, let me go to you, Kiki, because, um, you know, pussy is your first piece. Uh, yeah. What made you apart from me suggesting that you're right. [00:12:30] What made you want to write what you wrote? I mean, I didn't tell you what to write. What made you write prison? I think there is responsibility in knowing, uh and I felt that that my responsibility as an artist is to help others like me, [00:13:00] other people who are going through the same experiences. Uh, so I never intended it to be Pacific Island lesbian. Uh, I just intended it to tell a story. Um, yeah, and I think part of of pussy is dealing with those boxes and the reasons and [00:13:30] and and kind of, um, dealing with, you know why? Why does she have to choose a box? And really, it's the only reason why people would feel I would feel the need to choose a box is because other because of the other And and so for a long time I. I had to battle with that. [00:14:00] Um, until I realised that I would be giving in to into that that way of thinking. And so I Yeah, I hate boxes. They're so restricting. But also I think the boxes are what we put ourselves in. I think a lot, a lot to do with, um, audience members accepting, [00:14:30] um and especially in such a small kind of world that we live in that, um Then they accepting that, um, gay people and Maori people are multifaceted, and they don't necessarily have to write about, um their experience to, um, you know, the gay or the Maori experience. You know, they can write about anything that they want because, you know, we are artists and we shouldn't put ourselves in any of those boxes. We should just write what we want. But I think, um, I came across [00:15:00] a lot of, um writing lunch, and it was just really hard for people to kind of perceive that this Maori person could possibly write about this Hollywood world when, for so long they had seen Maori writers write about, um and, you know, you know, it was a point in time where there was, um, for that voice to come through. But I found it really hard for people to kind of accept, um, that a Maori person would write something other than that. So for those of you who don't know which is a debut award winning play, right, um, deals [00:15:30] with the five nominees for best supporting actress. Um, in 1958 58? Um, yes. So not your typical subject matter for a, and I actually, um, and I actually try and trying to get it on to the stage without having to produce it myself. I sent it out to most, um, companies in New Zealand, and, um, you know, I had a background in celebrity journalism, so that pop culture world is something I'm very familiar with. Um, but one person who actually said to me who actually read it [00:16:00] said that it was flawed because I'm not writing what I know. I should start to write Maori stories. Um, so, Well, you know, I was trying to, you know, I was trying to kind of keep it professional. I mean, I was I mean, obviously being told that it was quite, um, I can say, is it? No. But, you know, it just kind of, um that, you know, it goes to show that, you know, when people when this particular person who read this play, [00:16:30] um he read it with the knowledge. Obviously, I put my name on it and kind of dismissed it entirely because he knew it came from a Maori writer. Um, and despite the one, you know, lunch and one in the water had Jennifer and Katie. So, you know, as a play itself, it stood its ground. And it was, you know, um, it proved itself to be quite successful, but, you know, trying to get it on stage. Um, you know, you know, we're judged just because of, you know, the Maori are not even the gay side, but the Maori side. [00:17:00] So I think, um, the pressure of putting ourselves to some boxes comes sometimes from, um it's within our with, you know, comes from outside of us sometimes. And I think that, um, you know, we just still have to keep to what our, um, truth is, um but that can be hard because it's such a small industry. And if you know, there's a lot of people that think like that. It just can, um, have a barrier. I just wanna rewind a little bit back to one of Josephine's [00:17:30] points which, um, which resonated with me because when I was helping Kiki with pussy, You know, when I was looking for lesbian plays by lesbians Very, very little as opposed to We are spoiled for choice for our boys. Um, which takes me to you, Uh, a because you are, you know, transgender. Um, in terms of plays by trans about trans out there, many slash any others out there? Um [00:18:00] well, not that I know of. Um I mean, when I wrote my play, I didn't really I wrote it because I like to write about things that will move me or something that I want to see in theatre. And so I like to go to theatre shows. So usually I like usually my stories are about love, because I I love love stories, whether they're about a straight couple gay couple. Um, so I don't I don't I didn't really think that there was any other trans writers writing about trans story. And what compelled [00:18:30] you to write inky pinky Punky, which, for those of you who haven't seen it, is about a story very close to I'm gonna about a young, uh, gorgeous who, um, is the victim of a bet at high school, Uh, with the 1st 15 captain who, um, subsequently falls in love with the gorgeous. So, yeah, you go. I think it was the interest that people, um, found [00:19:00] the the the story in the script. To me, it was just like, OK, yeah, it's a script, but it was the fact that everybody found it. So, um, different to me, I was just like, maybe it's because it's not been told enough about Yeah, and so I was just like, OK, then, well, we'll see how it goes. And because it's my first play. Well, my first play. Yeah. So it turned out to be really good, but I didn't actually think about any boxes or anything while writing it. Or did you feel like you were representing your your [00:19:30] trans community? Yes. Definitely. Yeah, because I know a lot of friends who are kind of related to it, So they really it was when I wrote it, I was thinking about my friends who I actually know because it's really hard trying to write a poly story when they're so so strong about Well, I don't live like that. I don't live like this. I don't, so I try not to. When I write a story, I try not to say it's really I'm not representing a whole heap of because they're individuals first before [00:20:00] they are kind of boxed into a community. So I try to make sure I write something that's kind of related to me or kind of close to me. And I try to say, Well, inspired by my life, I'm not trying to represent a whole community of because some of them are really No, I don't live like that. I was like, OK, sweet. That's cool. Yeah, Spectrum is the word I always come back to. There's a lot of us, and not all the same. Um, one thing I'm curious about for you guys is why? Why [00:20:30] theatre? Um, as opposed to Why not? I know some of you dabble in in magazines and work. Um, and online work, Pantagraph punch. And, uh um but why? Why? Why? Theatre Josephine, You wanna take that one or because it's here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, It's here and it's accessible And there is a community [00:21:00] here, and it's just so Hm. Oh, like are friendly. And it's here. Yeah. Yeah, if that makes sense, he says, unsure of himself. No, but yeah, it's just here. And it isn't like what you new like you gay? Well, like [00:21:30] come in. Here's a like help. Yeah, like yeah, Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, That's nice. And like, Yeah, and why? Why? Why theatre And why don't you Do you know, in Pinky Cony the film musical? Um, because it's theatre. I find it's right in front of you. You can't really run away from it. You can't change your channel. You can't. Once you're in the theatre, you're sitting there. You're watching it. You can't get out, honey. Right? Unless [00:22:00] you're gonna walk out halfway through my show, I will put you on the spot. It's like, No, you You have a seat, honey. OK? And I'm Nathan. Why theatre for you, I guess for me, it's, um I just really like words and especially spoken words. I think it's, uh I mean, I know that theatre isn't strictly a verbal medium. There's a lot of very visual stuff on stage, but for me, it's always been about poetry on stage. Poetry spoken aloud. And [00:22:30] it's such a great pleasure seeing, you know, a bunch of actors reading your lines out loud on about poetry being read out loud. I just wanted to ask you about one play on your CV secret life of sausages. Could you talk to that? I'm just intrigued by it. That was a, um, during the basement 24 hour play festival last year where it was sort of like the, um, V 48 film one we had, like, you know, 24 hours to come [00:23:00] up with a play based on some prompts. And ours was, um, trial by fire. And I think we thought, um, absurd sausages characters was the way to go. So, yeah, there are three sausages on a grill counting down before they die. So that's that. Yeah. And just while you're there, um, Nathan, I just actually was curious. Is your first produced play gonna be like six this year as part [00:23:30] of young and Hungry or have you had one in terms of the full length piece? Um, like proper 60 minute plus, Yeah, like sex, which will be in the Wellington Young and Hungry Festival and then, in theory in Auckland a few months later will be my first full length play. And what is the the synopsis of it's, um, seven teenage high schoolers all sleeping with each with each other in a sort of daisy [00:24:00] chain rotation? So it's the, um, sort of. It's more like, um, it's based on the structure of an old French play called Laronde was a German, um, French German Laronde. But, um, basically, the first scene is a couple. Second scene is a couple, but it's each scene that follows on with one of the from the previous chain. So it's basically daisy chains back to the start [00:24:30] by the end of the play. Yeah, and it's about their coming of age, um, their understanding of their own sexuality and sexualities, Um, and just how freaked out we get trying to understand sex when we're young. OK, I look forward to it, and young and hungry is a great training ground for a lot of young writers like Sam, you've done young and hungry, and now you, Nathan, and was pinky young and hungry or a TC version of [00:25:00] the next big Thing, which is similar. OK, that's great. Um, one thing I wanted to ask. Is there a particular, um, in terms of Is there a particular play or I guess, film or book where you feel like you've really been represented, or are you doing it yourselves within your work? Mull over that. My first election will be Josephine, uh, TV series [00:25:30] Transparent by Jill Soloway. Hands done. God, yeah, she's a lesbian writer. She's got Trans people on her. I think her head writer is Trans. They're just real people who just happen to be off the, you know, on the spectrum, and that's it. They're not like the lesbians aren't crazy. They haven't murdered anyone. They're not just like trying it out. They're just women who love other women. There are men who love [00:26:00] the other men. There are women who now identify as men, men who now identify as women. It's really interesting, and it's real and it's human and it's awesome, and everyone should watch it. It's on light box. You can get a 30 day free trial. I swear to God you'll watch it in about 48 hours. Binge. Go watch it. It's beautiful. I've never seen anything like it. It's exciting. And it's just a revolution. It's fucking [00:26:30] awesome. You don't have to pay for it. Have you ever seen anything that represented you? I mean, pussy represents you, But before that, I'd say the only thing that I've ever felt like represented me was My name is Gary Cooper. And it was that guy. But that was the only role I've ever connected with [00:27:00] role the academic, the fatherless academic. Yes. Have you ever seen something Film theatre that's represented you? Um Well, I, I can go back for, um, top song trilogy. Um, when I first watched that when I was, um I think about 15, Um, because that was kind of like the first, um, kind of gay drama that kind of dealt with those [00:27:30] kind of deep issues of, um, acceptance and coming out. And, um and I think as a 15 year old, um, you kind of attach, you know, something that I have never seen before. So I think yeah, Trilogy and how? Yeah, yeah, um, no particular show. But, um ja, the writings of James Baldwin tended to speak to me a lot, even if it wasn't, um, because it was ethnically [00:28:00] appropriate. But I think knowing he was a person of colour and gay and going through certain things, I could sort of sense that in his writing, even if he was writing about a, you know, older, white male in Giovanni's room. But, yeah, I think it's just that sense of not knowing where you belong. I've quite deeply connected to nice. Lucky? Um, no, not really. [00:28:30] No, not really. I mean, my favourite, probably trans or film would be too on, but yeah, I connected to that when I was really young. Only because I was like, because I wanted to be them. But it was really really, uh, but nothing really, Polly, Or, you know, wise really has kind of reached out to me. So if you don't know, that's kind of like an American version of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert [00:29:00] with Wesley Snipes, Patrick Swe and John Zima. Right? So which one did you identify with Wesley Snipes? No doubt, no doubt. And, um, what about you, Sam Play or film? Or do you feel like represented or not? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah Other hours, it's like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I am yes, No, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I love all his books [00:29:30] that that nicely on to my next question which is Who's Who's who's inspired you on the spectrum in terms of authors. Sort of similar question. Authors like him, of course. Um, him and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Like and to like, Amos is like somebody who like Oh, like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Like somebody who [00:30:00] is that That smart, that overtly angry, that overtly sexual and that overtly, just sad about life is just somebody who who I think inspires every thing I exist Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah Has feared all my work I think, like every day of my life Like I hear yeah Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, Like all the way through who's been inspirational [00:30:30] for you as a writer? Uh, gosh, I guess, as a lesbian writer, Um, probably Patricia Highsmith and Susan. So, Marilyn, we quite very intelligent older women who are angry as well Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't work for her so much anymore, but I used to sort of ghost some of her writing. She's such an icon [00:31:00] figure in New Zealand. What? Um what she taught what she taught you? Uh, she's taught me that, you know, it's that same thing that I what I mentioned at the top, it's like she was outed by truth magazine while she was a politician, and that's really hard. And so she went. She's quite, you know, angry about it. And so she should be. It was awful what she went through and what people [00:31:30] said to her and wrote to her. So you turn that into a knows her very well. She was Abigail's step mum for a while. So, um, we've we've talked about it. That's my girlfriend, Abigail. Um, we've talked about it, and I have asked Marilyn I asked her permission and I did some research. She's currently writing her autobiography, so I've done a research pre research for her [00:32:00] to go and write, and she's writing now. James Baldwin, Tennessee Williams. All the sort of obvious ones, unfortunately, But, um um, but a big one is also not from sort of for the gay stuff. But, uh is David Henry Huang who writes a lot of interesting Chinese American plays, and I find them incredibly relevant and biting, even if it doesn't, you know, appeal to my homosexual [00:32:30] side per se, like stuff like, um, yellow face, madam in butterfly. Even though it's got the gay stuff in there, it's not really about that. It's more about the way that Asian masculinity is perceived. And I find that really incisive, but, um, yeah, did you know that That's really sad. Um um, Tennessee. Definitely. I know it's a bit cliched, but, um, especially [00:33:00] his earlier work. And, um, you know, I'm I'm a cliche myself. I love musicals, and I'm inspired by a lot of musicals. So, um yeah. I mean, like, when I'm working, I kind of have, um a But, um, yeah, um, Tony Morrison Villa. Uh, just their fearlessness and their boldness just being different. [00:33:30] Um, most recently, it would probably be shows like black faggot and girl on the corner. And we're probably the ones that are mostly drawn to as of late. Um, I, I would like to talk about hate now. I just It's the flip side of one of the earlier questions. Um, I'm just curious. Like, if there is a film, I mean, this is kind of theatre centric, but it can be film or book or whatever is Is there a gay character or film [00:34:00] that you've really wanted to stab the writer when you've watched it? Because you hated the depiction of of a gay character or or story? Does anybody wanna? Nathan? I've always had, like, serious issues with, um, a folk. The both sort of Really. I mean, I watched, uh, Russell T Davies recent series cucumber, which, you know, there are a lot of bits I like, and then a lot of bits. I just [00:34:30] want to, you know, grab C needles and start stabbing everyone. Yeah, but, um, as a general, um, yeah, there's I think there's something about the way that gay males are sort of portrayed as. It's not that my concern isn't as sexual creatures. I'm all about that. But, um, as sexual creatures as something to sort of laugh at, I find sort of, I don't know, cheap and tasteless. [00:35:00] Thank you. No, not a hater. So, Hawaiian, uh, have you been offended by a trans depiction in theatre or film. No, there's not enough hate going on on this panel. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Have some head over here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah A looking is a show I found to be a show that [00:35:30] tries everything And it just isn't Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah It tries are to represent, like a gay man And it is so unspecific about it and it just just it also it just moved at such a such an uninteresting pace And it just ended up being very safe and dull and not interesting And the concept [00:36:00] even And I'm just like yeah, yeah, yeah, that's yeah, No, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah It's something that isn't specific enough. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, Anything that's got your back up in terms of representation, I just hope that there aren't enough stories about women for women in general everywhere, let alone lesbian. [00:36:30] We've got a long way to go. Sisters pisses me off. And have I covered everyone's hate for the day? Um, in terms of having a long way to go, I mean, the buzz word at the moment is diversity, which is a word. I don't really care for that much, although I do. I do. Um, I do really, um, think a lot about the concept of diversity. Um, Josephine, I'm just wondering, could you ever bring yourself having [00:37:00] said what you just said to to, um, potentially write a piece that was all male, or would that just go against? Because I think about that myself. Sometimes. Can I bring myself to do a piece that's all white? Because there's there's a lot of roles for white people, not so many for us specifically as a Gemini. I can flip flop on that, I have to say, but yeah, I, I could. I mean, it depends on the story. Maybe I'd write a show where it is [00:37:30] all male cast. But women have been in power since the beginning of time, and men are treated like shit and raped and beaten. And maybe it's like, how do they top that? So, yeah, I could, but I probably flip on its head somehow or just No, I want more roles for women. That's the whole reason I started writing. I'm a trained actor and I got frustrated at watching my male friends be like, What role are you auditioning for? And there were about six for them. [00:38:00] And then me and my female actor friends were going for the one female role. I got sick of it. So I started writing things that I wanted to perform, and then I just accidentally became a writer. So I don't know what the I don't know what I'm doing. Join the club somehow. Somehow we're all here. Um, is diversity something that you guys think about as well, in terms of the industry and the the lack of it and the need for [00:38:30] it? Yes. Um, it's just funny that that this is the question we're being asked because, uh, I was about to write a play and for my playwriting class at at UH. And all the characters have happened to be male for some reason. And then I thought, Wait a minute, I'm missing my own point. [00:39:00] I So I changed the story. And it's because as an actress, growing up in a theatre community with no lead roles for Pacific Island women, I feel like it's my duty almost to create those roles, and maybe I'm doing it for myself. But I'm also doing it for other people like me. [00:39:30] I think it's just for yourself. Your show selling out every single night. That just speaks volumes. People want to see the work when they're hungry for it. It? Yeah. And I'm surprised that, um as writers and I'm really total call, um, more woman, um, roles because, you know, I love writing for women. My first play was all woman, my man and, um, and I I wrote for women's magazines for 10 years and, you know, [00:40:00] in terms of the depth in terms of, um, just the range that you can write, it's just just I just I'm quite gobsmacked that there are not more, um, plays and works for women because I find, um I enjoy writing women characters. And also when we were casting for lunch, and it was just, um, just seeing, um just the gratefulness of actresses, you know, having such a range [00:40:30] and, um, dealing with such issues and even seeing your play. Um, it was just a thrill to see five. You know, someone actresses on stage, just, you know, on point and doing that thing. So I'm really surprised that, um you know, writers don't identify that. That is the key to great drama and great writing woman roles. Anyone else wanna chime in? Um, I value [00:41:00] it absolutely hugely. Like, I feel like as somebody who comes from somebody who is somebody who is half white and half not white. I come from a family who is like a family who, like, looks not like anyone else in the world. And I feel like it's it is important. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's hugely important. I also think that there is the danger [00:41:30] overvaluing other devo, uh, that over the quality of the content. And I sometimes am scared of something getting elevated That is like Ha, ha yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah How diverse and not actually good because I think that can happen [00:42:00] sometimes And it isn't like wrong It's just it can make things hard on an audience Sometimes if it's humping like Oh, my God, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah This is amazing Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah It's not a good something that's actually good writing Or like it's not handling things in a clever or smart? [00:42:30] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, It's just something. Yes, Yeah. Separate and new, which is not good, necessarily all the time. We are approaching the end of this. So I did. I did want to ask in terms of hashtag the future. Uh, what what would be your guys' hopes for the future in terms of keeping keeping it theatre centric and thinking about the way that the industry [00:43:00] is now and and particularly the establishment is now What? What would you, um how would how would you see hashtag the future as being in your ideal, your ideal world? No. Straight at all. No, it's done. No. Yeah, OK, My ideal theatre would probably be because I find [00:43:30] Poly transgender to be a really talented to the point where someone like me who could flip both characters where I'm I think I'm really capable of playing a really strong male character and then playing a female character like Beyonce. Really Well, So I feel like I would love to put on I would love to. I'd love to put on a play where I could see a cast of just all train to were able to play male female characters because they were singers, dancers. We make costumes we can do. Sits just a company where I be like poly Like, [00:44:00] let me give you a real show. Real tell. That's my future. And it will happen. Oh, yeah, I agree. No I. I see, um, more, more roles for Pacific Islanders in general. Yeah, well, you know, just looking at this panel this amazing, diverse in [00:44:30] terms of the age. And, um you know, um what what we identify as I mean, this is the future, and it looks like it's in great hands. Um, in terms of the gay voice in theatre. But I wanted to kind of mention the resources it takes to put our work on. And I think I hope in the future that there are more resources for our voices to get out there. Um, identifying, um because we've all put on our shows, and it's really tough, you know, in terms of, um, putting a show on pardon. [00:45:00] So, in terms of talking about the future, I would love to, um, see resources for our voices to be heard. Um, it's sort of going back to what? Something a a said earlier on. But, um, last year after I won cow one the before 25 playwriting award. Um, the other winner was a half Chinese person as well as me being full Chinese. But our question we got asked or a comment that was made before [00:45:30] a radio interview that we had to do was, um do you find it interesting that both of the winners this year were Chinese or part Chinese? And I guess for me, I hope that in the future, that's just not something that needs to be said. Yeah, I agree with everything that everyone here has said just yeah, more roles for women as well. You know, more money. But people take big risks because I find theatre quite conservative [00:46:00] at the moment. I got really inspired by pussy at the basement, which you guys should see. It might be sold out, though, Um, but, you know, I just really want to see people taking more risks and yeah, I hit my Well. Look, there is about us, right? Julie? Julie here. So, um, I just I just want to round that [00:46:30] by asking Do you wanna ask a question? Yeah. You may be aware of Mike Chu's play Strange initiative to encourage school age, uh, people to learn songwriting. And I wonder if there's any similar initiative to encourage school age students to learn their craft and play right. And if not, perhaps it's something you might explore. Love [00:47:00] it. Thank you. Anyone else ask a question, I. I will wind up and just say that. Um look, I want to thank you guys for, um, coming on the panel. Um, I'm excited that you are all in the industry, and I wish you, you know, you're all relatively new, uh, to it, Um, And you've already all had a measure of success, and, um, I just, uh I wish you all the best hashtag the future. [00:47:30] So thank you. And thank you guys for coming too. Thank you.

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TITLE: Teenage Years - Same Same But Different writers festival
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VOICES: Aleisha Parkinson; Chris Brickell; Chrys Jones; Peter Wells; Stevan Eldred-Grigg
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1880s; 1920s; 1960s; 2010s; 3ZB (radio station); A Way of Love (book); Aleisha Parkinson; Amberley; Anna Karenina (book); Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland University Press; Australia; Bangs (book); Bible; Bill Pearson; Blackball; Chris Brickell; Christ's College (Christchurch); Christchurch; Christchurch Boys' High School; Christchurch Courts; Christchurch Municipal Tepid Baths; Chrys Jones; Coal Flat (book); Colin Fearon; D. H. Lawrence; David Hill; Diggers, Hatters and Whores: The Story of the New Zealand Gold Rushes (book); Frederick Giles Gibbs; Gaius Valerius Catullus; Germany; Hinemoa (ferry); Hocken Library (Dunedin); Honore de Balzac; James Courage; Jock Phillips; John Frederick Kelly; Kaput! (book); La Comedie Humaine; Leo Tolstoy; Lux vacuum cleaner; Maori (ferry); Mates and Lovers: A History of Gay New Zealand (book); Murray Forgie; National Library of New Zealand; Nazi Germany; Nelson; Nelson College; Nelson Provincial Museum; New Zealand Journal of History; Oracles and Miracles (book); Oscar Wilde; Pablo Picasso; Papanui Technical College; Peter Wells; Pleasures of the Flesh (book); Samesame But Different (2016); Shanghai Boy (book); Shirley Albiston; Shirley Boys' High School; Sigmund Freud; St Paul's Anglican Church (Christchurch); Stevan Eldred-Grigg; Sydney; Taylors Mistake (Christchurch); The Fourmyula (band); The Great Wrong War: New Zealand Society in WWI (book); The Shining City (book); Trevor Nunweek; United Kingdom; Women in Love (book); Women in Love (film); World War 1; abuse; androgynous; arrest; arts; bell-bottoms; books; broadcasting; camp; cars; church; class; classical Greek and Roman culture; classical art; classism; clothing; coming out; commercial culture; concentration camp; conversion / reparative therapy; courts; crime; dance; dandy; diary; dysfunctional; education; entrapment; family; farm; feminism; ferry; flares; folk culture; french; friends; gay; gay liberation movement; guilt; hair; hidden history; history; homosexual; incest; invert; kissing; knob; law; lesbian; lust; masculinity; music; newspapers; oppression; painting; pansy; pash; pedophilia; persecution; poetry; poofter; potato and rice; queeny boy; queer; radio; rape; relationships; rugby; sailor; school; scouts; second-wave feminism; seersucker fabric; self harm; sex; sexual abuse; sexual interference; sexual inversion; sexual revolution; sexuality; shame; ships; single sex schools; soul; sport; suicide; swimming; swimming hole; teaching; teenage; television; the German glance; theatre; unnatural; walking; writing; youth
DATE: 13 February 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Auckland University of Technology, 55 Wellesley Street East, Auckland
CONTEXT: Audio from the session: Teenage Years.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, good afternoon, everyone. My name is Peter Wells, and it's my pleasure to be chairing the session called teenage years. Um, the Teenage years. Everyone remembers the passion and angst of this passage from childhood to adulthood. It's peculiar simmering power and insight into the way the world is unjust, unfair and on the whole, pretty ridiculous. As one gets older or less, one gets more used [00:00:30] to these qualities and tries to come to terms with it. But teenage years are usually when a sudden awareness of the gap between pretension and reality opens up vast as a chasm to talk about the strange and unsettling territory. We have four experts with us this afternoon. Two of them were foot soldiers in the teenage years. But those years along behind them, obviously, uh, first of all is Chris Brickle, associate professor, [00:01:00] um of gender Study. Uh, sorry, Associate Professor Chris Brickle, gender studies coordinator, GE Gender and Social Work, University of Otago. And I'll introduce him more fully before he speaks. Um Beside him is Steven Aldred, Grigg, award winning author of spell binding books that are at times, works of fiction at other times wide ranging and insightful glances deep into our past and across across the divide. [00:01:30] We have Chris Jones and her friend Alicia Parkinson, who will give us a sense of the power of teenage years by by opening the session, um, performing a poem. But before this please join with me in welcoming our guests this And now we'll kick off with Chris and Alicia's performance of I am sure [00:02:00] 10:03 p. m. I love you already. I love you again. I love you straight boy. For both our sakes. I hope your love is platonic. There's no way I can return it. You've given it so freely for that I admire But straight boy, we only just met six hours ago and I'm a lesbian. 10:04 p. m. shout at me in Japanese Straight boy, that's twice [00:02:30] 10:33 p. m. You said gorgeous. You're so foreign. I wanna study you. You're so intriguing to me straight boy, the reason why I'm not like the other girls is because you I only like the other girls. You can study me from a distance Look, but don't touch the masterpieces. 10:36 p. m. You missed out the H when you called me. So, uh, I like to think the H wandered off somewhere. It formed other words other sentences like homosexual like Here's to the queers Like hands off 10:55 p. m. I mentioned [00:03:00] that I'm a lady lover. A gentle reminder to a flirtatious straight boy. He said, Heck, then you buy or all hope is destroyed with one word Lesbian 11:05 p. m. For a glorious 10 minutes, lesbian made the flirting stop then all caps GIRLYG winky face. That's four 11:12 p. m. You can decide whether to call me bay or not. You won't get too attached, you said. So be so attractive. Free lesbian Don't distract him. [00:03:30] 11. 14 You said cute girlie 11. 15 You said next Saturday, girlie 11. 16 You said OK, girly Sunday you blew me a kiss. You called me beauty. You called me beautiful. You called me girly. You called me girly again. That's nine. You call me girly one more time and I'll show you what it means to be treated like a woman. Later that night you called me on the phone saying I wanna get to know you better. Well, boy, you don't get to know me like that Because I don't like boys like that. [00:04:00] You said. Are you sure? Are you really sure? Straight. Boy, this is one of the things I'm very sure about. People like to ask. When did you find out? The first time I used the word gay. I didn't know what it meant. I just knew it was bad. The first time I heard the word lesbian, someone had said dirty before it. The the first time I made the connection between how I felt and the word homosexual was in a Bible. I spent the next eight years self inflicting conversion therapy. You don't know the meaning of desperation until [00:04:30] you spend that long trying to change everything about who you are. Because what you are is wrong is unforgivable. Because you're so disgusting that I let him rape me in the hopes it might turn me straight. That when it didn't, I let him do it again and again and again. I stopped counting after 17. I thought I deserved it. My wrist will tell you that. I am sure. I was sure when I tried to kill myself, I was still sure when my friend asked why, and I came out to her. I was sure when I decided to love myself, [00:05:00] I was sure when I got my first girlfriend, I was sure when this time it finally felt right. I was sure when I told everyone else, and I was sure when I told you. Thank you, Chris Alicia, Thank you. [00:05:30] Um, we'll change gear here slightly by introducing our our two main speakers in more detail. Chris will be the first speaker. That's Chris. Brickle is well known as the award winning author of Mates and Lovers, which chronicled the gay male homosexual and homos social past, unearthing a whole hidden world and bringing it to light and contemporary analysis through commentary and photographs. [00:06:00] He has gone on to publish books which examine this rich vein of the past, which leads directly into the present. Some of these books are on sale in the foyer. His current concern, however, is completely spot on with our subject this afternoon. He has spent the last few years researching the history of the teenage world of A in New Zealand, and he'll begin the session by doing a presentation. So thank you, Chris. Cool Well, [00:06:30] thanks, everyone. I think we're probably 10 seconds off the power point appearing on the wall. Um, which has a couple of images out of my own family's photo albums, which are not necessarily queer, but in some ways, gesture, perhaps towards, um, the possibilities. So today I want to look at the idea that, um his historian suggests that both sexuality and adolescent experience have continuities and differences [00:07:00] that are quite profound. Um, what I want to do today is to have a look at three lives, uh, one of which will be familiar to some of you. And the other two almost certainly won't. Um the first chap is, uh, Fred Gibbs, who grew up in Nelson in the 18 eighties and left a diary which lasted his lifetime. I haven't read all of it yet. The second is James Courage, the, uh, Canterbury lad who went on to be a well known New Zealand writer. And the last [00:07:30] is Shirley, um, she Alston who may have gone on to become a nun, But I'm slightly unsure about this. Um, actually, there's 1/4 re Trevor Nunn week, so we're going to look at Trevor last. So this material comes out of two places. The first is a shortish article that's coming out in New Zealand Journal of History in April, and the second is my 80,000 word book, which is coming out with Auckland University Press sometime late next year, depending on how organised [00:08:00] I can get in actually getting the manuscript into shape. So let's start with Fred Gibbs, of whom I don't have an early photo. I've got a slightly later one, a Nelson lad who chronicled his emotional life and diaries during the 18 eighties. So this was the period before the Oscar Wilde trial. It was a period when sexuality was both omnipresent and not particularly widely talked about, um, in a public kind of discourse. Anyway, Fred's [00:08:30] diaries that I think are fascinating and rich and interesting really recall the rhythm of his daily life, particularly his school life and his friends. The gender segregation of New Zealand society in the 19th century has been very well discussed, debated and chronicled by historians. Uh, John Phillips, perhaps the most, uh, famously, uh, famous to do so. The romantic friendship, though a really intense and ostensibly non sexual kind of relationship [00:09:00] and import, uh, from North America, in particular from Frontier Society of North America, but also Europe, to some extent, really structured, uh, young people's relationships in some quite interesting ways. Young men as well as young women or young women as well as young men. And I want to start with a quote from 16 year old Gibbs Diary from a late winter's night in 18 83 when he headed to a friend's place, the day after he wrote two or three [00:09:30] weeks ago, I app up to Jim Gully. He alone spent glorious evening. We are rather awkward with one another, as he is extremely refined, and I always feel a bore in his company. On the other hand, I am much better read and a much better arguer, and he, in a sensitive but to me embarrassing way, looks up to me for information. He professes to have no poetic feeling, but what I have seen leads me to think rather differently. On the evening referred [00:10:00] to after time, he got on a track. I'm so enthusiastic but extremely reserved and namely the influence of souls on one another, mesmerising beauties of art and sensitiveness, soul and body et cetera. Now we don't know where Fred's emotional life went in the end, or at least I don't because I haven't read all the diaries. But I think in some ways we can start to see that the an emotional world that is congruent with the kind of world, um, of [00:10:30] young people who may well have been erotically attracted to others of their own sex. And I'm going to get on to a few more tantalising pieces in just a moment. So these two carried out the discussion alone in an atmosphere of trust and mutual disclosure. Gibbs's interest in souls proved prophetic. The next year, which was 18 84 in Nelson, he became extremely close to his schoolmate, Fred Kelly, who tragically died Soon after, accidentally shot during [00:11:00] school rifle practise, Gibbs told his diary of the friendship. Something so sad has happened, he began. I have dreaded putting it on paper, he reminisces. Our friendship must have grown very fast. This was the time when I was so thick with RC. I'm not sure who that is. He made more advances to me than I to him. We must have been very intimate in a way, but he was not yet my chief friend. I was not [00:11:30] very friendly with Fred, but showed preference for RC. I think I remember finding Fred Rather awkward coming home from school as he often kept me walking from our side by side. What a fool I was. And so the sense of a kind of a friendship, courtship kind of relationship. Uh, between these two young men played out in Fred's diary after his friend had died, advances [00:12:00] were made, intimacies exchanged and friendships ranked in importance. Shared moments strengthen the bond, including rugby. There's a really interesting, unwritten history of rugby to be written in, um, New Zealand, I think. Who agrees? Yeah, it's really interesting. Rugby rugby matches were one venue through which this friendship was really kind of solidified. [00:12:30] The swimming hole was another with Kelly and another lad, Jones. Um, Fred Gibbs wrote about the formative moments in such spaces. We constantly stopped to talk now and again. We raced, and Kelly and I kept nearly abreast with Jones far behind as we got down as we got close down by Hunter Brown's hill, a beautiful sunset sunset took place. Then suddenly remembering that the other [00:13:00] two were in a greater hurry than myself to get home. I turned to descend and Kelly in a simple way, expressed my description of the sunset and both declared I was a poet. We got down at dusk, having spent a most most delightful afternoon. In fact, it was the most rapturous time I ever had. And these intense, kind of, um, emotional kind of teenage moments intersperse with an intense kind of friendship are really kind of, um, strong in in Gibbs's diary, I think he talks about [00:13:30] him chasing, uh, his friend friend Uh, also Fred, I, uh, I charged at him with a towel as hard as I could go, but he But he dodged every time till suddenly I intercepted him and he rushed right into my head down, and I caught his head between my knees. I then chased him along the path. This is, um, Fred Gibbs here a wee bit later, probably in his early twenties, Uh, on these walks in these spaces, he went to extraordinary [00:14:00] lengths to avoid young women on one walk, walk him down. Bullock spur. He wrote nearly Met girl party. Or rather, feared doing so. So continued long and hard along the line to the next spur. So he actually diverted his walking track. Um, and it dances. He There was one dance he attended, and he said, Oh, went to a dance to really had to dance with a girl and didn't really like it much. Um, so there were these kind of interesting little hints, at least in his [00:14:30] teenage years, about where his kind of, um, interests lay. A few years later, in 18 87 he would have been about 18 or 19. He spent an evening with a colleague. He wrote H and self necessarily interfere with one another. The most unfortunate result is that I get nervous and unnatural, and the concept of unnatural and and 19th century life tends to refer to, um, a kind of an erotic connection between men. Gibbs never married. Um, I do know [00:15:00] that much. So I think the 18 eighties a really interesting period. Anyway, there's actually a more romantic kind of connection between young men than that we would see in the early 20th century by which, uh, point to kind of a more militaristic kind of masculinity really started to take over James Courage, whom some of you will be familiar with. Can you spot him here in the photo? He's second from the left, began writing in 1920 some 40 years after Gibbs. [00:15:30] This is significant because a lot had happened in that time. He was the son of a run holder. He grew up in amber, a town some of you will be familiar with, and wrote a journal while he was a student at Christ's College in Christchurch. His entries for the early years were introspective, less about friends, uh, like Gibbs and more about a sense of difference from the norms of New Zealand masculinity and his father's expectations of having a son who would be a farmer [00:16:00] courage focused on his artistic temperament. He wrote of his love for music. What do I live for? My music? Yes, he referred to his slight streak of effeminacy, his love of dress. To have nice clothes, he wrote and look smart is one of my ambitions. I'm extraordinarily conceited, and I shall now put down my character. As I see it. I am fickle. My numerous flirtations show me that, and he crossed that bit out in his diary emphatically as if he [00:16:30] had admitted too much. Maybe he had, over the 40 years between Gibbs writing and courage writing, uh, the romantic friendship model had weakened. Uh, doctors and psychiatrists like Havelock Ellis and Sigmund Freud introduced the concept of sexual inversion and publicised this the concept the kind of term homosexuality which first appeared in New Zealand in about 19 08 in In coverage of the Wild Case [00:17:00] in 1927 Cori wrote, I love this. What a repulsive shock one would get if a schoolboy ever said to one. My father once slept with Oscar Wilde, and he didn't like that idea at all. He set sail for England, and really, that's that kind of shift between an antipodean colonial space. Uh, and the centre of the empire in the UK was a shift that enabled and allowed him [00:17:30] to develop an identity, um, as an invert, which is one of the the the terms he sort of took up. So wandering down the street in London saw a sailor I think it was directly. I saw him approaching up the road. Something inside me switched on I tried not to look at him, surveyed the magnolias in the garden that usually works for me. Roses, Um, Then, just as he passed, [00:18:00] he looked into his face and saw a confident smile. My heart quivered like a hot light, and the blood rushed to my face. I felt lusty but intensely embarrassed. I don't even know his name. And Courage actually wrote about what he called his sexual nature in his diary diaries that were essentially suppressed until 2005, when the restrictions placed on their access expired. Um, [00:18:30] as Peter discovered when trying to access Courage's work the pre during the previous decade. Um, there's a sister, but I won't mention her too much. So really, we kind of get to see, see a sense of courage engaging with the ideas of his time. Conversations with his friends, though, were really, really important and gave him pause for thought. One mentioned only as D, challenged Courage's claims of Outsiderness. [00:19:00] You're less abnormal than you think, Dee said to me this evening. Perhaps, I replied, knowing perfectly well speaking the truth, and I was clinging to my differences. By the way, why is it that when Dee and I are alone together, we talk about nothing other than sex, giving slightly heightened accounts of our own erotic experiences. Here's AAA piece of one of Courage's diaries. Um, you can see he or his sister I don't know who actually cut pieces out before they were, [00:19:30] um, deposited in the library. Difficult to know who that who it was. Who who did that? Another friend known only as shared courage is disquiet. He was upset because I said that a Picasso drawing of some naked, spartan Ys on horseback, which he was about to buy for his room, was an awful giveaway. He was scared stiff by the suggestion that it might be too outward and visible sign of his inversion, Good heavens, as if the way [00:20:00] he spoke to women wasn't a sufficient giveaway. So this notion of the invert, the notion that one knows what an invert is and an invert is obvious. You know, this is actually a long way, uh, from Nelson in the 18 eighties to London, a New Zealander in the 19 twenties. What about young women? The teenager's book is going to look at young women's and young men's lives, and I've tried to get as much of a balance in there as [00:20:30] I can get finding material on girls, Same sex, um, attachments is actually this is a friend of Courage's. Sorry Slide, um, is actually really quite tricky. And over about four years, I was reading The Diary of Shirley Elberton, a student at Wellington East Girls College. She began writing in 1934 at the age of 14, and here's a page out of her diary. She was not interested in boys at the [00:21:00] in the least, not even if her friend Valerie's John, who apparently had willow eyelashes, you know, as a dropping into, um, you know, flowing streams or some kind of description like that. Um, she dismissed Colin, an earlier boyfriend of Valerie. She said he looks like a cabbage. So yeah, Colin didn't appeal. That's that's so that's so much the sort of thing I would have written in my diary when I was 13. Um, I have that diary. [00:21:30] I have not looked at it for this project. I sort of and I feel slightly fraudulent because I'm now looking at other people's diaries, but I'm not willing to put my own out there who sympathises me with me on this. OK, thank goodness I should stop feeling quite so guilty. Anyway, Shirley, uh, directed her affections to two young women. The first was Nancy, her school friend, friendship and a safe harbour with a way that Shirley [00:22:00] wrote about, um, Nancy. I've leaned on her all the time. She's been a kind of protection from for me from the outside world, she wrote. It was like creeping inside a good hollow tree during a storm. You know, you are safe, the tree can never bend, she noted. Then to a certain extent, I let her influence me. This image, incidentally, is not Shirley, and it's not Nancy. And if it's not any of their friends and if it's not even in Wellington, Um, it's from Methodist [00:22:30] archives in in Christchurch, and I just sort of like that kind of sense of intimacy. It is of the same era. It's 19 thirties image, and it was, uh, during a Bible class camp, which is Alison Laurie writes in her thesis was one place where girls, uh, did meet and form close um, relationships. So Bible Class has an interesting history of which I'm only barely starting to examine. The diary also chronicles Shirley's love and worship for Ru Gardner, then [00:23:00] in her thirties. And so she talked about how beautiful Ro was, how beautiful her dress was. I don't think I've ever seen her looking so lovely. The dress made her eyes such a lovely blue, and the heat of the room made her chin cheeks so pink. So these kind of descriptions of her, um, adored teacher really kind of fill the diary, and they're really, really lovely and really interesting. Um Later she would classify her attachment to RU as [00:23:30] a childish adoration. But page after page of the diary are full of these kinds of descriptions of her adoration. For the teacher, the smash or the Crush or the Pash was one form of relationship or attachment between girls. At this kind of time, uh, comes out of the UK and America in the late 19th century and, uh, surely wrote about the PA in her diary. She said [00:24:00] that her, she said of her friend Nancy Olga, a Russian exchange student on exchange. Sorry, that's Taoist, A Russian student on exchange. Nancy was very thrilled to think that Olga had such a pass on her when she'd come from such an interesting country. But it's just the law of opposites. Olga so passionate and Nancy So So the kind of opposites in this sense work within the relationship between, um girls and young women. What about those wider ideas? [00:24:30] Thinking about the idea of inversion, um, is quite interesting. It was sort of an idea that have, like, Alice popularised as I mentioned and and that kind of sense that if you are a woman attracted to a man, then you must have some element of, um, sorry, a woman attracted to a woman. You must have some element of manliness in you and vice versa. And there's one really intriguing piece in, um, Shirley's diary, where, she says, Valerie [00:25:00] White says that a particular teacher is neither feminine nor masculine, which is rather horrid because it might insinuate anything. We know what it might insinuate, but there's no kind of point at which Shirley herself kind of, um, worries or articulates this in terms of her own kind of attachment. She merely see in later diaries as late as we have. I really don't care about boys. I don't have any time for them. And her emotional energies are very much focused on other young women. Um, [00:25:30] I wish there were more diaries like this. Um, if anyone knows, if you let me know, I think, uh, they really again start to map out the possibilities. The terrain, the languages, the influences that young women who did really want to to, um, you know, develop a life around other women might sort of take up in a sort of a suggestive kind of way. Now, my last example, um, is another young man again, Um, we could talk in the question time, and I could talk [00:26:00] for hours, and I don't have hours about why it is that sources are harder to find. Um, in terms of youth young lesbian history, as opposed to queer history. Um, Trevor. Nick, I'm sort of vaguely aware of the time, so I'll just say a little bit about Trevor, um, of whom? I know a reasonable amount. I wanted to mention Trevor for two reasons. Firstly, because I sort of know a wee bit about his actual life. And secondly, because he was hauled up in court on a charge. And I just want to talk a wee bit about [00:26:30] the kind of circumstances in which, uh, teenage boys might end up tangled up in the legal system. So, uh, here, Trevor and his friends, uh, Trevor was an only child born in 26 grew up in Christchurch, went to Papa Technical College, Um, and worked as a glove cutter, a window dresser, a ticket writer, And in 1944 enlisted for service in the Navy. But before he entered the Navy Navy, here he is [00:27:00] in his uniform here and here he is sitting on, um, the I think it's the base of the John No Robert Godley statue. The one that the head fell off in the earthquakes in Christchurch Square here. So Trevor found himself in court in 1945 at the age of 18, when he'd gone to a papanui house to visit a friend he'd met at Saint Paul's Church. He later told police he invited me inside and showed me to his bedroom. [00:27:30] He then produced a number of photographs he had taken. There were scenes in portrait studies. We were sitting on the bed, he under the fly of my trousers and played with my private. He then got me to do the same thing to him. And on another occasion he returned to the house where four other chaps were there and paired off with a different young man. So a fairly uneventful, perhaps kind of sexual expression. Now, um, it got him tangled up with the law. [00:28:00] I can't tell from looking at the records how the police got involved. The probation officer recommended leniency. This happened a lot in Christchurch. In one particular circumstance, when the boys or young men were well connected from well off families, they would usually get let off. So there's a real class issue here. Um, one of the, uh, probation officers says that said that we had previously [00:28:30] born an excellent reputation. He'd never been in any trouble. And on that account, I would recommend to be given another opportunity to reestablish himself. All the youths were, um, let go on probation, and Trevor left for Sydney soon after, and I've actually had some really interesting discussions with members of Trevor's family, Um, about his kind of later life trajectory. They knew they knew of the arrest. They didn't know much about it. They didn't know too much about the [00:29:00] circumstances, but they did know that he had left for, um Sydney soon afterwards. There's another, uh, topic here of of, uh, trans Tasman queer migration, which I'm also kind of on the edges of being involved with. The other young men who found themselves tangled up in the law were those who were, um, caught having sex with older men. This again comes out of a Christchurch court file. I've looked through. [00:29:30] Um, all the Christchurch court files for the tens twenties, thirties and most of the 19 forties. Uh, what went on here? This is cheating. Um, this is not actually the Christchurch bars. It's a photograph from the ward bars in Rotorua. But the basic setup is the same. These changing cubicles along one side. Um and, uh, you and you and you and men would go into them, um, and fall around. And unfortunately for them, um, Christchurch [00:30:00] bars had one of the local newspaper editors was the moral police. And he kept dobbing everyone in, um and almost sort of entrapped them, and he'd sort of wait outside the cubicles and he'd see how many pairs of feet he would see underneath. Um, and then he'd shot them to the and stop moving around the microphone. So, wandering microphone. Um, yeah. And so there's a whole sort of history here, um, which I've also written about and can send the PDF to anyone who's interested, um, of the [00:30:30] kind of entanglement of young people in sexual relationships with older men as well. So concluding quickly. Social changes, I think have influenced individual lives quite profoundly. Uh, these include increasing access to secondary education during the late 19th century, particularly for working class young. Uh, sorry. Middle class young people like Fred Gibbs, where his social life has sort of, um, emotional effect of life developed around, uh, secondary [00:31:00] education. Most New Zealand young people did not have access to secondary education in the late 19th century. So there's that, um, so school boy networks, schoolgirl networks, the kind of world that Shirley Alston moved on with school is really central. And new ideas made their mark, including notions of sexual inversion, particularly James courage and, to some extent, Shirley Alberton. Young people talk with their friends about their sexuality, about their desires about who they liked. [00:31:30] Nothing's changed there. The state had an indirect interest, sometimes through schooling, sometimes through this kind of, um, regulatory kind of framework and just sort of thinking about, you know, in in a sense, one of the big questions with the project is the extent to which, um, young people's lives have both changed profoundly and also not, um, still the process of working out who [00:32:00] we are kind of negotiating with. What's around us, uh, you know, reading magazines, reading the internet, um, going to theatre All of those kind of things that we're reading Oscar Wilde plays. Um, the influences have changed, but that process of kind of integrating ideas hasn't necessarily, um, maybe it has, um, feel free to disagree. Of course, Um, and the kind of sense of negotiating an identity within the society that we live in and the kind of tensions between the good bits and the shitty bits like [00:32:30] Trevor negotiating that relationship between the pleasure he had with his friends and being arrested and publicly humiliated. So, you know, there's that real kind of thing between yeah, really good bits and really shitty bits. I mean, I could go on but I won't. Um I'm not allowed to. Anyway. In fact, I think the electrodes are just about starting, um, to get me under the desk here thinking, though I mean in in concluding conclusion, the past [00:33:00] and the present are somehow foreign countries, but somehow also kind of not. And I think untangling the knot of how they are and how how they are not That's too many knots. Um is really quite interesting to do. And I think that's one of the pleasures of doing history, including this kind of history is getting that kind of dialogue. Um, and really careful. Kind of, um deliberate thinking through and not losing sight of the wood for the trees, which is something I'm [00:33:30] not always the best at, but anyway, I'll stop on that point. So thank you. Thank you, Chris. I've already mentioned Oracle and Miracles as, um, Steven Griggs. Remarkable novel, much loved novel. I'll just mention quickly, uh, Shanghai boy, a work of gay fiction looking at what's somewhat [00:34:00] unflattering unflatteringly described as the potato and rice relationship. Um, but really, perhaps in terms of this session, I should concentrate on Steven's historical work. He started off with the remarkable, um, book Pleasures of the Flesh, Looking at Sex and Drugs in Colonial New Zealand, published in 1984 a long time ago. I mean, it was a fantastically early book, [00:34:30] um, through to his some of his more recent books Diggers, hater and whores looking at the social and sexual anarchy of the gold mining fields. An absolutely extraordinary kind of part of our social history onto the great wrong war, taking a decided attack against the received and by now, almost sacred version of our first World War past, David Hill, the novelist has said, has said of Stephen, um, Stephen Aldred. Grigg [00:35:00] defies classification. He can swoop from the historical to the contemporary, from lyric to polemic, from fiction to fiction. He's unsettling as well as absorbing. Um, please welcome Stephen, who will talk about the torment of the teenage years. OK, the sixties, Um, in many ways, the sixties was the hinge. Um, [00:35:30] there had been sexual revolutions before the 19 twenties, for example, Um, the sixties, though in many ways was a definitive opening up of mouths. People began to talk openly and publicly about, um, sexual behaviour that before had been talked about privately. I experienced it all at first hand. Um, I'm covering the late sixties here. Um, I was 12 in 1965 when I started at [00:36:00] a school in I was pleased that Chris referred so much to Christchurch, which is my hometown, the city. OK, so Shirley brand new suburbs sprang out of paddocks. Um, on the edge of Christchurch in the late fifties early sixties, my family lived in a standard four bedroom bungalow. It was a rather dysfunctional family. So my experiences, which were full of angst, are related [00:36:30] not just to being queer, but also being coming from a family with a cold, distant father and a bullying, angry, trapped mother. Um, so I wasn't really very well set up to navigate the sixties, but it was an interesting journey. A bumpy ride as, um, Betty Davis said, um so bland, homogenous, orderly. Christchurch. That was me in 67 my first Beatles haircut. I've still [00:37:00] got the Beatles haircut. There've been a few changes in between, and I was going to Shirley Boys High School, which had its very clear place in the pecking order of Christchurch. Chris has also alluded to Christchurch's pecking order. We were very proud that Shirley Boys High School was not a coed school where the wrong kinds of kids went. But we were also very aware it was not Christ's college and not even Christchurch boys high school. So it was an in between [00:37:30] zone, which fitted how, of course I felt about my life, the folk culture of the time. Verbally, the word pansy was used a lot. My mother would say, um, if I was singing a little song to myself while making my toast Don't be a pansy and I didn't know what she actually meant In 1965 I did by 1969. Yes, [00:38:00] I wrote about it in the Shining City, Um, my first novel to look at growing up in the sixties and in the seventies in Christchurch. It's based very closely on my own life experience in Shirley. Um, the first thing that happened in high school was I was warned by my brothers that I had to be careful [00:38:30] that the big boys didn't pull my knob off. I had no idea what they were talking about. We wore these kinds of caps to school ours were Royal Cambridge, blue and gold. And it was a rite of passage when you started at Boys High. The fourth form and fifth forms would attack the third forms and pull the knobs off their caps. But it had a sexual kind of undertone that I didn't quite understand. But [00:39:00] it was scary, but also sort of sexy somehow. And my knob got pulled off on the first day. His takes from the Shining City. In my first year, there was a scandal in Shirley Boys High this ship, the Maori. She sailed regularly from Littleton to Wellington. Um, there were two ships. It was a was the was called the [00:39:30] Inter Island Ferry. Um, it was the custom in Christchurch schools for school kids to be taken in parties. Um, in the care of teachers up to Wellington for a a day trip with an overnight passage on either the Maori or her sister ship the And on one of those trips, a science master. They were called masters. Of course not teachers. Um, Colin, um, was discovered [00:40:00] to have been sexually interfering, as the phrase was in those days with some of the boys. He was taking them into his cabin and getting them drunk, and they were having sex together. It opened up a can of worms. It was discovered that this teacher Colin, had been doing this for some time. He'd been teaching for two years at Shirley Boys High. And, um, all through those two years, there had been these encounters with boys sometimes willing, sometimes alcohol, to lubricate it once or twice close to rape. [00:40:30] Um, but because he was a master, um, he wasn't actually prosecuted. And he ran away to Sydney, where he got a job at a Catholic. He was Catholic. He got a job at a Catholic boys school and through the rest of the sixties and the seventies continued to abuse boys. And the cases were actually blown in the 19 nineties. Finally, um, I heard about all this. My parents were not particularly concerned [00:41:00] about it, so it wasn't seen as especially scandalous. It was seen as sort of the kind of thing you expected. Masters and, um, vicar were well known for this kind of thing. It was part of the culture and, of course, scout Masters. Um, nothing you welcomed, But you weren't particularly surprised by it. On the other hand, when a very popular radio broadcaster, Murray, [00:41:30] for in the same year 1965 was dragged through the courts for sexual encounters, voluntary sexual encounters, his name became a byword for disgusting. This in Christchurch. And I can still remember my mother's and father's tone of voice when they were talking about, uh, they could almost not speak the name. It was so loath. So [00:42:00] it was a curious double standard it may have been because he was intimate with almost every household. He was a very popular broadcaster. He was a very good broadcaster, too, and he hosted a popular musical light music programme that played through the day on three ZB, which was a very popular, probably the most popular radio station in Christchurch. So my mum would have been listening to him while she was doing the baking and running the vacuum. The Lux who used that word, uh, Lux in the house, um, she'd been listening [00:42:30] to, so it was like an invasion of her space. I think that was perhaps why she was so shocked and worried about it anyway. He was hounded out of broadcasting for some years, although he later came back. Broadcasting itself, of course, was very tolerant of such sexual piccalo. It was understood that, um, within the broadcasting world that many people were gay or lesbian and in fact, lesbianism [00:43:00] was, of course, different from male homosexuality. Um, we went often to swim at a place called Taylor's Mistake, and one of the institutions at Taylor's mistake were two, elderly ladies. They were probably about my age, actually, um, who wore I still remember them. They, um, bathing costumes kind of from here to down here. Um, and they were called the girls, and everybody [00:43:30] knew the girls had been with each other for many, many years, and everybody was very friendly to the girls. It was understood without being spoken about explicitly. So again, it's it's nuanced. It's not. It's not a crude oppression of gay, lesbian and other kinds of people. A lot of boys at Shirley Boys, [00:44:00] he were having it off with each other. Um, we all knew that I, unfortunately didn't have a chance to have it off with anybody. I was a bit naive. Um, but I did get winked at by one of these boys. Um, this was a group called Johnny Campbell. And the detours, um, they were all boys, um, two years older than me at Shirley Boys High. And one of these boys gave me that wink, and I thought, Oh, I think he wants to do something. But I was much too shy, so it never happened. [00:44:30] And Johnny and the tours were very much in the main street. They were, um they later became prefect. What they were up to was again winked at, not really noticed. Also, there were Queenie boys at school as they were called, and Queenie boys who had a smart mouth actually could pull it off without being bullied. It was the shy, queer boys who were bullied. One of my my one of my three or four best [00:45:00] friends was one of these Queenie boys with a smart mouth. And his nickname was BJ. Everybody called him BJ. No problem. BJ was very popular. He was very camp, um, and an accepted institution in our cohort all the way through. But other boys there was one boy, um, who wasn't a particular friend of mine. Um, he would be chased by a mob of boys in the grounds [00:45:30] of Shirley Boy calling out queer pansy. And if they caught him, they would beat him up, and the Masters would never intervene. It was understood in Shirley Boa in the late sixties that boys had to sort these things out among themselves. And it wasn't up to adults to to intervene. Also within my family, it was a big family, big out of control sort of family. Um, there were things going on, um, below the radar, um, below [00:46:00] my parents official radar, anyway, that they must have guessed at but didn't do anything about. And no doubt it was very common in lots of other families. I wrote about it in my most recent novel, Bangs, which is about my sister. Essentially, um, I have a scene where she goes into a We had a back batch. We had two batches in our garden for boys to sleep in. That's another thing about gender. Of course, boys are understood to be able to tough it out in little batches. [00:46:30] Girls, of course, needed pampering in the main house. Um, so my sister walks out into the back batch, and this is what it says in bangs. Brent and Stu in shorts and nothing else are lying on the bottom bunk together, kissing. I've never seen boy boys kiss. I stand bewildered for a few seconds, needing a few beats to understand, I stand for a few more beats, fascinated by the way those two [00:47:00] big, strong jaws are working away at one another while those four big, strong hands are all over each other's bodies. Next I turn on my heels, and that's how my family coped with anything that was a bit you just pretended you hadn't seen walked away in my family. In fact, I am one of six boys four of us fooled around with each other sexually, and my father walked in on us once or [00:47:30] twice. My mother, a couple of times each time, turn around and walk away at the same time. There was also sexual abuse in the family, um, older brothers sexually abusing sisters, which is in fact, one of the main themes of bangs. So this is the folk culture I was living in. So the family culture, the school culture, not formal culture. Um, [00:48:00] there was quite a lot of tolerance in other words. Quite a lot of room to manoeuvre, Um, regardless of the formal discourses that were going on outside the home and the school. Yet at the same time, there was an atmosphere of persecution. It was a little bit like I often thought, living in a Nazi state. Um, I later wrote a novel about a living in the Nazi state, and I came across an expression called the German Glance. People in Germany [00:48:30] under the Nazis coined this phrase it meant before you spoke confidentially to anybody. You glanced over your back and that way to see who was listening. And that's what it was like being interested in your own sex, at least for me in the late sixties, in the folk culture. But then there's the commercial culture, or what some historians prefer to call popular culture, but I think it's a product of capitalism rather than the people. So I call it commercial [00:49:00] culture. And again I go back to Johnny Campbell and the detours. Pop music was evolving really rapidly in the sixties, Um, almost every year the sound changed dramatically, and teenagers were very alert to those changes and so on and the look of people changed almost every year, too. The changes in the presentation of the body of the hair and so forth very rapid change. Many of the groups began to experiment with an androgynous [00:49:30] look. This is a very popular Kiwi group. The formula. This is the late sixties, so flared trousers, bell bottoms they were called at first. They were called flares in the seventies, um, referring to the Navy with its well known queer kind of cultural legacy and the frills the the pseudo um, Regency look and longer hair, of course, Um, so that by [00:50:00] 67 68 my mother, if she was driving now big she, um What's that look at those two? Um, you can't tell whether they're girls or boys. Everybody seemed to be having long floppy hair. Everybody was wearing bell bottoms. Um, everybody was wearing coloured shirts. Or so it seemed, although if you look at photographs, it looks much Dreier, Um, picture. But that's what it seemed to be. Um, androgynous values were certainly spreading very widely, [00:50:30] and that was made in actually at the very end of the sixties. So the hair getting longer and longer, um, and this more dandyish look spreading very different from the masculinity that I you would have seen in the early sixties. And then I was also becoming exposed not just to commercial culture but to high culture literature. [00:51:00] Shirley Boys High was actually very good academically. There were some very good teachers there. We had an excellent library, and I began to read texts that opened up things that I hadn't seen before. Um, Anna Karina has a walk on role. I don't know if anybody has noticed it for two gay men, um, who are portrayed by Tolstoy. Um, he ridicules them. [00:51:30] Um, but nevertheless, in 1/19 century novel, they never appeared in 19th century English language novels only in continental novels. And I found others in the novels I began to read. Oh, actually, this had a huge impact on me. Women in love, The famous scene where, um, Gerald and um, I forget his name are wrestling naked And where, um, [00:52:00] there's an attempt to fuse masculine energy. And, um, Lawrence goes on about the source of energy and male loins and that kind of thing that were all very powerful stuff, and that was taught at high school at Julie Boys High. Um um, in several of the novels in, he portrays [00:52:30] a character called and is in French literature anyway, probably the of the 19th century, the leading model of a strong, active, admirable queer man who is queer and proud of it and overt about it in the novel and in our French course, we read so again we were being exposed through formal high education [00:53:00] to worlds that were different from our suburban world. I was exploring New Zealand literature, too. It wasn't taught at school, but I was beginning to read New Zealand literature. I was beginning to seek it out and read it, and a few of them, a few of our Kiwi writers, gave me a strong queer vibe, too. James Courage, who's already come up? James Courage. Once I began to read, his stuff in [00:53:30] many ways became, for me, an alter ego of of mine. Um, his social background was very similar to my father's social background. I identified strongly with it, and this novel was, um, the first openly gay novel published by a New Zealand novelist published in Britain. And in fact, there were problems bringing it into New Zealand at first, but by the late sixties it was very easy to read. It was in our school library. [00:54:00] Yes, I ended up writing about James Courage in this, um, kind of quasi autobiography. It's really a fiction masquerading as an autobiography. Um, I identified so strongly with James Courage in my teens and early twenties that I imagined scenes where he is with his father with his mother. Um, I was projecting my own relationships with my own father and mother into that [00:54:30] novel. I'll probably write more about James Courage one day, too. And then there was coal flat by Bill Pearson. Um, I actually spent the first five years of my life in coal flat the little town of blackball on the West Coast before we went back to our home province, Canterbury. And, um, I only much later discovered that the protagonist of Coal Flat was originally a queer man, but [00:55:00] that Pearson was persuaded to turn him into a straight man in order to get the book published. Uh, I didn't know that at the time, but as I read that novel, I thought, There's something here. Um, the protagonist is somehow he's not really interested in women. Um, he seems more like me, uh, than and I got a very strong vibe and a strong affirmation from that novel. But all these writers were [00:55:30] writing in code in many ways. Um, and another thing that happened to me at Shirley Boys High was I got exposed to classical literature, classical art and literature. And that, of course, is a very classical meaning ancient Roman and Greek. And that, of course, is a very different ball game. This is one of the most well known. Um, Roman, uh, it's actually from a bowl of two men fucking. [00:56:00] And I began to find images like this in the art books not in our school library, but in the university library that I began to get access to by the late sixties, and I suddenly discovered that there were whole other cultures that had completely different approaches to sexuality. And then, in 69 I discovered who has already come up, or I think is going to come up in this room. Um, I discovered [00:56:30] this kind of poetry. So as a result of the spread of secondary education in New Zealand, Um and an education system that in theory endorsed the status quo. But actually, it gave you lots of ways of negotiating in other directions. I became aware of many other ways of seeing the world that weren't available in either commercial culture or in the popular culture I was growing [00:57:00] up with, Um but, you know, provided other avenues of exploration by 1969. In fact, when I first discovered um, gay liberation was beginning to be talked about piggybacking on women's um on feminism, second wave feminism and by 69 television, um, documentaries, news, documentaries and commentaries were beginning to discuss, uh, male homosexuality and [00:57:30] lesbianism openly on television. So you'd sit down with your cup of tea and your ANZAC biscuit and listen to a panel talking about whether male homosexuality was acceptable in New Zealand society. Uh, so it was a huge transition from 65 to the Murray Foy scandal to 69 so very liberating in lots of ways to have gone through the late sixties. But at the same time, in 1969 I was suicidal, So going back to that [00:58:00] Nazi state, the concentration camp metaphor I was wanting to kill myself because it all just seemed too hard. And in fact, in 1973 I did try to kill myself several times. Um, one way was with this magnificent machine. My first car, a Mari miner. Um, like lots of young men behind the wheel of a car, I would, um, often think I can't stand it anymore. And I think of driving into a tree or a lamp post. [00:58:30] And several times I steered in towards one, but never quite managed. In the end, I took the more pansy. I, um, way as my mother would have said, method of popping pills. Um, so a mixed bag, the late sixties, lots of good stuff. But at the same time, it was still really tough, uh, to be queer. Those are the main things I want to say. It was still essentially in 69 a concentration camp that I was living in. [00:59:00] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Steven. Um, it would be a wonderful opportunity to ask questions, um, of these two writers, but we've actually run out of time, and I think it's probably better if the, um, authors go to the, um, tables out there. And if you've got particular questions to ask them if you actually [00:59:30] ask them out there But please join me in thanking both the poets earlier and, uh, two speakers. Thank you very much.

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TITLE: Paddling Your Own Waka - Same Same But Different writers festival
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VOICES: Anton Blank; Carole Beu; Chris Brickell; Ian Watt; Joanne Drayton; Paul Diamond
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; Alison Mau; Anne O'Brien; Anne Perry; Anton Blank; Aotearoa New Zealand; Arapera Blank; Auckland; Auckland University of Technology; Auckland Writers and Readers Festival; Australia; Best Mates: Gay Writing in Aotearoa New Zealand (1997); Borders (bookshop); Carole Beu; Chelsea Winter; Chris Brickell; Craig Potton Publishing; Dan Carter: My Story (book); Dangerous Desires (1991); David Stedman; Dunedin; Dunedin's Warehouse Precinct (book); Dutybound Bookbinder; Dymocks Bookstore; Edith Collier; Edith Collier: Her Life and Work 1885-1964 (book); Edmund White; Erika Mitchell; Exisle Publishing; Finlay Macdonald; First Lady: From Boyhood to Womanhood (book); For Someone I Love (book); Frances Hodgkins; Frances Hodgkins: A Private Viewing (book); Genre Books; Geoff Walker; Gisborne; Grey: Fifty Shades of Grey As Told by Christian (book); Hachette NZ; HarperCollins Publishers; Hodder Moa Beckett (now Hachette); Homemade Happiness (book); Huia Publishers; Ian Watt; Jacqui Stanford; Jeff Kinney; Joanne Drayton; Kevin Chapman; Kindle; Kobo; Learning Media; Lee Child; Make Me (book); Manly Affections (book); Massey University Press; Mates and Lovers: A History of Gay New Zealand (book); Media Take (tv); Māori; New Zealand Public Lending Right scheme; Ngaio Marsh; Ngaio Marsh: Her Life in Crime (book); Ngāti Porou; Nielsen BookData New Zealand; Nights in the Gardens of Spain (book); Nikki Macdonald; Northland; Ockham New Zealand Book Awards; Old School (Diary of a Wimpy Kid book 10); Once Were Warriors (book); Ora Nui (journal); Panguru; Paul Diamond; Pearson Education; Penguin Books New Zealand; Postmodernism; Quentin Crisp; Radio New Zealand; Random House Books New Zealand; Read Publishing NZ; Rhona Haszard; Rhona Haszard: An experimental expatriate New Zealand artist (book); Robert Gant; Samesame But Different (2016); Southern Men: Gay Lives in Pictures (book); Switzerland; Tandem Press; The New York Times Best Sellers list; The Search for Anne Perry (book); The Women's Bookshop; Time Out Bookstore (Auckland); Two-by-Two: Men in Pairs (book); Unity Books (Auckland); Upstart Press; Utu (film); Whale Rider (film); Whitcoulls; Witi Ihimaera; amazon. com; biculturalism; bilingual; book making; bookdepository. com; books; collective; coming out; digital publishing; diversity; ebook; facebook. com; gay; gaynz. com; globalisation; guilt; heterosexual; history; homosexual; indigenous peoples; intellectual property; lesbian; mainstream; marketing; nude; other; othering; photography; poetry; publishing; queer; religion; religious education; review; self publish; sexuality; shyness; social media; sociology; spruik; tablet; tikanga; twitter. com; university
DATE: 13 February 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Auckland University of Technology, 55 Wellesley Street East, Auckland
CONTEXT: Audio from the session: Paddling Your Own Waka.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So welcome to this session peddling your own WAKA a survey of the landscape where global publishing companies no longer have the same power as gatekeepers that they once had. And the Internet has opened up new ways of writers reaching their audiences. So our panel today will explore the possibilities and problems of finding your own audience. So just to tell you about the format of the session, I've asked all the panellists, um, to talk with their responses to the topic. We're gonna run through that and reverse alphabetical order because I wanted to go [00:00:30] first, and, um, then I'll facilitate a discussion with the panel, and then we'll we will allow time for questions and responses and things from the audience at the end. But just to introduce our panel. Carol Bow. If you haven't worked out by now, you must. You must know that she sells books. She's the owner of the Woman's Bookshop in Ponsonby, which is celebrating its 27th birthday in April. Is that right? She reviews books as well on Radio New Zealand and in print media, and she helps readers and writers connect through her involvement with festivals like this [00:01:00] one and and also the Auckland one and others. Today, she'll be giving a perspective on what it's like to be a thriving independent bookseller. Anton Blanc, next to her, is a child advocate, project manager, communications consultant and publisher. He's successfully published hardback books, including For Someone I Love, a collection of writing by his late Mother Blanc Beautiful book that is out on the table out there in the book sale area. Anton is also an anthologist and has founded the Maori Literary Journal, or Chris Brickle. Next [00:01:30] to Me is a sociologist, historian and author of books including the award Winning Mates and Lovers. The History of Gay New Zealand. Also Out There on the Table, he set up his own press genre books, which he runs with his partner in Dunedin. And this has published mainly affections. The photographs of Robert G, which was referenced in that first book that I mentioned two by two men and peers, which was 2013 the following year. Southern men, Gay Lives and Pictures in 2014, and then I was intrigued to see on the National Library catalogue that that's been followed by Dunedin's Warehouse, Precinct [00:02:00] 2014 so it would be good to hear more about that and your publishing strategy. Joanne Drayton, Next to Chris, is an acclaimed biographer who's written about two crime writers. We heard about an a fantastic session this morning, Nao Marsh that came out in 2008 and Anne Perry in 2012. But I was also. I've also known her work through her writing about the artist Rona Hazard and Edith Collier, two terrific books as well That came before that and Frances Hodgkins as well. And today she's talking about thinking digital, which is me, incredibly [00:02:30] intrigued. And then Ian Watt is a former publisher at Read Harper Collins in exile. Ian Watt has published both fiction and nonfiction in the United Kingdom and New Zealand, and he first published Peter Wells collection of short stories, Dangerous Desires, which is still still available. And he's Novel Nights in the Gardens of Spain, which we were talking about earlier today, and I think he's the Dedicate If That's the Right Word and The Best Mates Anthology, which, um, I spoke about last night, so join me in [00:03:00] welcoming this panel of experts brains Trust this this afternoon, Ian, over to you, right? I thought I would just give you a little bit of a background, um, of the context for publishing today. Um, a lot of the session will be devoted to, uh, digital publishing and Internet publishing and the new [00:03:30] forms of publishing. But I wanted to tell you a little bit about traditional publishing and what's happened to us and where it is, actually. Now, last month, there was a US study released that revealed what most people would suspect that, uh, people employed in the publishing industry largely identify as straight no surprise there. [00:04:00] The figure is actually 88%. Some of the other figures in the survey might interest you. 78% of those employed in publishing are women. Only 22% are men, 79% are white or Caucasian, 92% have no disability. And from my own knowledge of New Zealand publishers, I think those figures would be pretty much the same here. The industry does employ a large number of women and as in society at large, [00:04:30] I'm sure most people are heterosexual. But I don't think figures like this need to deter you from paddling your own into the mainstream to see what happens if that's your inclination. As everyone knows, the publishing industry in New Zealand has changed hugely in the 21st century due to the Internet and all the eBooks and alternative entertainments that are around. But the changes don't necessarily mean that all the avenues to traditional publishing have [00:05:00] been blocked. There've been huge changes in retail book bookshops have closed. Who remembers orders and which has changed its focus. It's disappeared from Auckland's main shopping street. Major publishers have disappeared. They've been merged or swallowed up. Read. A proud Kiwi company where I used to work was bought up by Penguin years ago, and since then, Penguin has itself merged into Random House, [00:05:30] and other local publishers like 10 Long Acre and Beckett no longer exist in their own right. There are some independents that still remain. David Bateman, Exile Our Press. Craig Potton, still soldier on the university. Presses continue. In fact, a new university press opened just six months ago. Massey University Press and a new publisher called Upstart Press has been very successful since it launched a couple of years ago and actually published Alison [00:06:00] Moore's book about which we heard this morning. So the self belief of these new publishers and starting up is perhaps reflected in local book sales. It might surprise you to know that in 2015, 5. 3 million books were sold in New Zealand, which was a growth in volume of 7. 1% over the previous year. So book sales are actually increasing, and the value of those sales also increased by 2. 1%. [00:06:30] Sales of eBook readers and of eBooks themselves plateaued a couple of years ago, and sales of readers are definitely in decline as people increasingly take to their phones and tablets to read books. Some reports suggest that eBook sales may be declining slightly, according to the US, the UK Bookseller magazine. Just last week, the five largest UK publishers all reported declining [00:07:00] eBook sales in 2015. However, this may be slightly misleading, partly because sales of self published and independently published eBooks are growing and account for an increasing share of the market. So we've got people paddling their own waka quite successfully away from those major publishers. So what are the options now? [00:07:30] I'll leave my colleagues on the panel to talk about some self publishing and online publishing. Um, there are maybe a much larger number of options and opportunities available to writers. Now, Um, if if all you want to do is to get your work out there to be read by others, it won't necessarily bring you an income, but you will have a voice out there. But if you are approaching traditional publishers, what are they looking for? I think there [00:08:00] are. There are three main things first, most importantly, what publishers have always wanted. And that is originality, writing ability, good ideas. You have to be able to demonstrate not just competence but excellence. They want writers who bring new ideas, or at least a new take on an old idea or a writer with a fresh and resting voice who can really communicate in an interesting way. Secondly, and I think this is the major change in the 21st century. Publishers [00:08:30] want authors who are prepared to help sell the book and preferably one who is digitally connected. So it's a huge advantage if you can use social media confidently. An author with thousands of Facebook friends or an active Twitter account is a godsend to publishers these days. They also really love authors who can engage people who are able to talk in public, promote their book positively in the media. Such authors will be invited to literary festivals and conferences [00:09:00] and so on. And it's important to publishers that authors can effectively sell their books at events like these, and publishers are always looking for something extra. So if you have another interest or a connection with a pastime or an organisation, which apparently has no bearing on your being an author, they might want to use it. For example, if you've written a novel, but you're also a leading light in the or in the deaf community, [00:09:30] or triathlon or whatever. These are all opportunities to publishers these days. They widen the scope of your potential market because you've already got connections there, and they are more important now than they ever were in the past. I think, um, too, that, um, those those connections between the author and publisher enable more of a spirit of cooperation for, uh, between author and publisher these days. [00:10:00] I. I think the the days of the the sort of the authoritarian publisher telling the author. What to do are gone. My last decade in publishing has been much more cooperative in the sense that there is a necessity for people to work together. And the third thing that publishers are looking for is, of course, a subject area which, where they can see good sales. And as far as nonfiction is concerned, areas that are as strong as ever for traditional publishers are things like cookery books, photographic [00:10:30] books, art books, anything that relies on a strong visual content. The other major area is Children's books not just picture books, but teen and young adult fiction, too. One of the features in publishing in recent years has been the growth of young adult fiction and since Harry Potter, it's an area not confined to teens, so adults are now reading young adult books in very large numbers. Talking of subject [00:11:00] areas, um, I thought I might just finish up by telling you the top five best sellers in New Zealand in 2015, excluding adult colouring books. And by the way, I did look up gay adult colouring books, and I was surprised what I found on the Internet the other day. The top the top five books last year in New Zealand. Number [00:11:30] one. Dan Carter's biography Number two Make Me by Lee Child number three Grey, by EL. James. That 50 SHADES thing won't go Away. Number four. Homemade Happiness by Chelsea Winter and Number five. Wimpy Kid, Old School So Sports Biography, blockbuster novel, titillating S and M trash fiction. Celebrity Cookbook. [00:12:00] Chelsea Winter is brilliant at social media. She sells her own books through social media And, of course, when get a new book in an established Children's series. So that's where we are in New Zealand now that's what's selling. Thank you. Thank you. Are you a digitally connected writer? [00:12:30] I hope I'm connected. I'm not sure. Digitally it is. Um II. I kind of feel a little bit of a, um, gate crasher here in this party because, um, I'm not exactly sure how, um I I just thought it was such an interesting idea. And, um, in view of this changes in the, um, publishing industry in New Zealand um I I thought that, in a way, our community, this community, um, has always, uh, really [00:13:00] been up against the odds, and the odds have shifted even more dramatically, Um, against the writer, I think. And And if we look at the losses in publishing, um, in 2013 and 2014, um, we're talking about, um, as far as I know, um, these facts are correct. Um, Pearson Education gone. Harper Collins gone? Yeah, but but the sort of the traditional ones [00:13:30] have gone. Um, has she New Zealand gone in the in the old sense? Um, school journal. Publisher Learning media gone, uh, Random House and Penguin now a random penguin. Um, so So, um, merged. So, um, so I think if it hasn't gone, it's been changed, and it's altered. And so our publishing world is very different. And what, What what's happened with, um, with all those losses [00:14:00] is that all the people involved in those, um organisations lost their job. The warehouse people, the editors, um, and the whole, uh, production moved offshore. So we now have New Zealand books being edited by Australians, and I don't know whether you feel upset about that. I wouldn't have said I was in front of Alison Mao this morning, but, um, it's it's in other words, without [00:14:30] the actual local knowledge and the, um, commitment to that local knowledge that we, uh we bring to, um our editing and the process of creating a book. Um uh, in New Zealand. So our world has changed. Our world was always we were always up against it. But I, I say today say that all authors, um or all writers are are, um, sending their work or trying to send their work out into an environment which is challenged and and difficult. [00:15:00] Um, and I've got a couple of quotes here, which I which I would which I like I. I did not my words, but, um, Jeff Walker said we are actually starting to get fairly close to the wall. If you're a New Zealand fiction writer and you've been turned down by Penguin Random and you don't live in Wellington. So you probably won't get published by Victoria University Press. And you're not not a Maori, so you won't be published by, um Then goodness [00:15:30] gracious, where are you going to go? So, I mean, this is I mean, let's be honest and and upfront about it, you know, it's really difficult, uh, to get something published today. Um and I would always say that the mainstream, um, is because it it has connections and the audience is is is always, I think, the probably the first quarter of call. But I think, um, there are other options and they are They are. And here's Here's a comment, actually, [00:16:00] Um, um, on that as well. So, um, Nicky McDonald writing It's hard to avoid the conclusion that fewer Kiwi writers will end up in print unless they slap a self published text on Amazon and embark on the difficult task of self. Actually, she's she's got spruiking. So I think that's like, you know, kind of show shoving your hips out there and and kind of self promoting. [00:16:30] So, um, but, you know, the I think the positives are that, um, New Zealand Kiwis are very keen to read their own stories, and, uh, we have a unique experience here in New Zealand that is valuable. And, um and and there are there is there is a remarkably big audience keen to see and listen to those stories. So, um, would you believe in 2011? A quarter of the books sold here in New Zealand were created [00:17:00] in New Zealand. So that's that's remarkable, really. And so II I think that that some of the options certainly are to to actually produce your your own books to either produce your own, um, your own individual books or actually as a collective. And this is what I'm thinking, uh, would be, uh, something that I might look at later on when I've got a little bit more time in my life is actually to create [00:17:30] some, um, an eBook publishing company or where, where, in fact, um, you've got a board and you've got editors. And you've got the kind of facilities that, um, a normal publisher. You know, I had one of our sort of traditional publisher would have but to offer that, um uh, audience, um market, but also the expertise and the skills. And in fact, um, that's what we have in abundance at the moment because there are so many, um, editors and people out there who are [00:18:00] looking for work because they they frankly, um, the the mainstream publishers are not here in the way that they were. So, um, there's lots of opportunities. I I think I must point out, because I've written about two writers recently. That's my last two books. So I'd like to finish with, um with with the fact that so I think one of our options certainly is eBook and certainly actually ebook publishing companies that actually do, uh, much that the mainstream does but doesn't [00:18:30] have that huge overhead commitment. Um, so that so Those are those are the options that I'm certainly going to look at, Um, as, uh, you know, in the future, um, for some of the titles that I don't think will grip a a, um, a mainstream publisher. Um, but 11 of the things I think is that the old relationship between publishers and authors has changed anyway. Um, and and I after writing about Marsh and then about, um, Anne Perry, um, there was a great, heartfelt enthusiasm when they, um, had successes. [00:19:00] Uh, they were contacted. There was constant, um, communication letters. And, uh, I just want the beginning. At the beginning of last year, I arrived back in New Zealand and I went to my hairdressers and, um and and I was, uh I was I. I had a job that year because I lost my job the year before, Um, we were all made redundant. And, um, I had a job, so I thought, Well, I'm going to go back to my old hairdresser. Um and, uh, she she said to me, she shouted across the room, Congratulations. You're on the New York Times best seller list. And [00:19:30] I thought, What a cool thing to do. And so I thought I thought this It's really mean and II I said, you gotta be kidding. And so I said, Well, I must surely I must have heard about that from my you know, like my agent or my publisher. No, I heard it from my hairdresser and she was actually right. So So So in fact, in in fact, even in mainstream stream publishing, you are a much more of a commodity. The notion [00:20:00] of, um, developing a career of sticking with an author of of taking them through the various stages in life and publishing is, is is is kind of a bit of an old story now, So you do need to be savvy. You do need to be into self promotion, and you kind of do need to look at new options and they are out there in a way that they've never been before with the expertise, Um, there as well. So I I'm gonna stop there and and, um thank you. [00:20:30] Now, Chris, who, um, actually wrote an essay in New Zealand books in 2011 called Bookmaking. Um, where he sort of explained this concept of the second sector in publishing. And, uh, this is an audio visual. Well, it's a visual multi visual presentation. There's a wee video that I think accompanies. This is, uh there is, uh, the audio is me talking. The visual is the video, which, um, up about Oh, it's just warming up. OK, [00:21:00] um, can we just pop it on and pause it to start with? I just wanted to to mention a couple of things. Um, Firstly, to mention Carol, who has stocked our book and Ian, who has helped me with that book. So, um, I'd like to thank them both. I think in a sense, my little journey started off when, um, Ian counselled me on what to do about a body of material that really interesting photographs of Robert Gant that I couldn't interest interest a publisher in and so Ian, um helped me out and he [00:21:30] edited. And my friend Katie did the design, and that was our first kind of book that we then did under the genre Books imprint. And as Paul mentioned, there have been several since. What I want to do today, though, is a brief, fairly brief. I think this last four minutes I want to talk about the second book, which is two by two men in pairs. There are about three copies remaining in the world for sale. One is on the table out there, and the other two are in my bag. Um, and this was conceived [00:22:00] as a little thank you for those who'd been so helpful and wonderful with with helping us get man infections out there, and we ended up selling it as well. But the thing that that I really like about this wee book it is to South Island language. We It's about that kind of that kind of big, um was that it fuses, in a sense, the new ideas of sort of do it yourself publishing with some very, very old technologies. And so this was a book that was printed in Dunedin. It was bound in Dunedin by David [00:22:30] Steadman of duty Bound A, um, a book binded just around the corner from a speed where the book was printed. And, um Then, about two years later, I went up to Pompeo house with my partner, Jeffrey, who who has been involved in genre books as well as the business manager and saw them making books in 18 forties style and thought. Actually, not a lot has changed. So I will stop burbling and make the start. So this is just a wee a wee video that I'll [00:23:00] just talk you through. This is an image from the book. Um, coming off what's essentially a high definition photocopier. So reasonably newish technology, Um, books folded up here. Now, this is the work that David, um, did in his, um, here he is here in his craftsman studio in Dunedin. A very old book, sewing machine. So basically print, um, fold the signatures, and then it's going to be sewn on this machine here, which I actually [00:23:30] I should have kept the sound on. It makes this marvellous clacking noise as he basically folds a folded page over. Um, that bit I don't know what that's called into that bit. I don't know what this is called, and then the needles come down and you'll see the cotton sewing the signatures together. This, of course, was done by hand. Um, at Pompeo mission. Um, if you go up there and do the tour, you'll see this is then the intermediate kind of technology. Fairly hands on. Nice [00:24:00] and old fashioned, not too old fashioned. And then what you get is a great big stack of signatures like this which are going to be packed at that point, every diagonal thread, um, and you'll then see that David is then assembling them in the guillotine, uh, down, um, to sort of squash them so you don't end up with a, you know, really, really fat book. Um, and then after a while, rather sort of violent thing happens, which I'll let you see the violent thing, uh, with [00:24:30] your own eyes. Um, before that happens, uh, the glue machine has to glue them. So I took my kind of video into his into his workshop and took these kind of images. Um, basically, once it's glued together, you'll see the spine is now kind of glued and the ends are trimmed. The book, as I mentioned, is tiny. And so each, uh, of those long things is actually two books which have been cut in half, which is what we're going to see next. [00:25:00] So he's kind of lining this up. You'll notice there's no cover. The cover is the next bit of the process. Um, protecting the book block and down we go on to it, Um, and then a sort of a pregnant pause before a rather slightly concerning thing happens. Yes. And you think, Oh, my God. It squashed it. [00:25:30] What's it gonna do now? Um, so again, cutting, trimming This is the trimming kind of stage. Um, going on here, the inner part of the book block, Uh, will then have a cover made and wrapped around it. Um, I'll just mention as I as I'm going through. Ian edited the text for us for this, too. Um, and then and then Carson copies. Um, And so basically, what we're doing here, the cover boards, as they [00:26:00] called literally, um, with a thinner piece in the middle. Um, and the uh wrapped around them. Here's a wee stack of them. We made, I think about 100 and 30 copies. 100 and 40 copies. So fairly small. Run. Um, and then the the cover, uh, lettering was hand, um, stamped using old fashion. Movable type. So really some kind of cool, Um, older technologies. This is the, uh, the press, uh, through which [00:26:30] the type is imposed. This is the we image on the front cover, and I will show the notes so you can see the book block the end papers, the covers all sitting there waiting to be glued together, and they will then be put in a press pause. Um, in the end product of the book. Um, the hand stamp letter on the front. This is a, um that picture I showed you cut and and sort of sunk into the cover. Um, the front letter was [00:27:00] actually a plate that we had made up and the movable type on the spine so sold through bookshops and and the Internet, but using a really old kind of technology. And as someone who's done a lot of history, I really like that idea of the old and the new kind of coming together. And what was a fairly craft based kind of, uh, project downsides of this. The retail cost is quite high because the cost of hand binding is reasonably expensive [00:27:30] per copy. Uh, the cost of printing small runs can be high, although not so much if you're not using colour. Uh, the later books were paperback, uh, perfect or burst binding, and they were much cheaper to produce. The whole thing has been a huge amount of fun. Really. For someone who's essentially quite shy like me, it's actually been It's quite hard because you've really got to, um, as Joe said, Spruik your kind [00:28:00] of work and get out there and stick yourself up and go buy my book. And And if you're a bit of a kind of a, um you know, shy person, then you end up with this kind of weird feeling of kind of selling stuff at people the whole time. So it's a really fascinating thing to do, um, kind of disturbing in a way, but also really kind of rewarding. Um, I'll leave you with that thought, I think. Thank you. [00:28:30] And this, um, it's been quite a, um, interesting time for me over the last couple. of days reflecting on, um, sort of particularly beginning with last night where we heard about, um, people's experiences. I mean, they were talking about the books that kind of turned on the light, but basically what we got an overview of was kind of people's coming out stories. And I really felt like, um, my story was told through, um, many of the many of the people [00:29:00] who were here, um so I won't go too much into my, um um uh, uh, history of my sexuality. But what I realised is that my motivation as a writer and as a publisher really emerges out of what happened to me. Um, during my childhood and there were two issues that, um, really bamboozled me and the first was, um, my sexuality. And I mean, people talked about the moment when they realised that I mean, I feel like for me from my first um, conscious moment, [00:29:30] I knew that there was something different about me, and it was something that I actually felt very guilty about and and, um, made me feel very disconnected from the world. So that was the first issue. And, um, a lot of the texts which people talked about last night. A boy's own story by Edmund White. Um, Quentin. Chris, Um, a naked civil servant. Those were the first texts where I actually felt like I saw something even close to my experience, Um, reflected back at me. Um, but the other issue that was really confusing for me was the issue of [00:30:00] my cultural identity. Because, um, I have a mixed cultural heritage. My father, um, immigrated to New Zealand from Switzerland in the 19 fifties, and my mother is, um, in, uh, uh, from the east coast of the North Island. So I had this, um, quite unusual. Um uh, cultural mix. And they were both, um, equally, um, unusual, because they're very artistic. So my dad was a photographer. Um uh, [00:30:30] when he first arrived here, Um, and my mother was, um, first Maori writer to win of Katherine Mansfield Award and one of our first bilingual, um, poets, and is actually very, very significant in terms of our literary history, even though she's not not as famous as some of the writers who followed her. So that was, um, what I was brought up in, And, um, I was kind of secreted away in this very creative, um um, home. And, uh, my [00:31:00] first five years were spent in in North, in Northland, where Mom and Dad taught at the local high school. And, um, we were known as the kids because, um, we all the other Children, um, spoke maori and, um, had two Maori parents I didn't have, and, um, I had, uh, uh a Swiss father. You know, a Swiss father. Um, and my parents were also liberal, so they, um they wouldn't let us go to religious instructions with [00:31:30] the rest of the Children. And we went off to the headmaster's house to have lunch with him and his wife and, um, in a very strong Catholic community. So there are all these things that kind of set me apart and certainly in terms of, um, figuring out who I was, um, in in terms of my cultural identity and my sexuality, those were, um, very difficult issues for me to negotiate, as I, um, as I transitioned into adulthood. And, um uh, my, [00:32:00] uh, I'm going to read. Um, this was, uh, the first edition of my mother's writing, which I've published, Um, and This is a photograph of her which my father took and used to hang in our kitchen. And, um so this, you know, he was photographing her nude in the in the 19 fifties, which gives you an idea of, um, what type of people they both were, Um, so quite forward thinking. And [00:32:30] I think, um, avant garde. And, um, this was the first cover on the book, and I'll explain why we've changed the cover as I progress on on my story. But I'd like to read, um, a little bit from an essay that she wrote in 1959 and, um won a Katherine Mansfield Award a special award because the S a was too short. But they were so impressed. They gave her the special award, and she's talking about, um, her life back on the east coast, um, north [00:33:00] of Gisborne. As long as he the Maori is conscious of his kinship ties, the Maori will never become as truly individualistic as the Pakeha. To me, that more than more than the retention of the language is what constitutes Maori. And it will, in my opinion, be the only permanent trait that distinguishes him from the The essay won the prize for the best short article in the Catherine Mansfield [00:33:30] Memorial Competition 1959 and cemented a position in the emerging Maori literary canon. She was first and foremost a poet. Her short stories and essays, however, give a detailed sense of time and place for the prose, the love poetry for pears as central as if everything else emerged out of that space. So she was predicting, um that, you know that that what she said was, um, the lang the [00:34:00] language will decline, but, um, the sense of family will always set us apart. Um, and interestingly enough, she was, uh, she was bilingual, and and, uh, for the last 15 years of her career, um, taught was head of Maori at Auckland girls grammar. But she never passed that on to us as Children. And so, um, and it was interesting listening for me to listen to, um, this morning talking about [00:34:30] Maori, which, um I, um really for for 90% of my life is irrelevant to my functioning. And, um, because I wasn't brought up with it. When I have to engage with it, I find it very um it's very policing of behaviour. Um, that's its primary, um, uh, function and not being brought up with it. And I realised [00:35:00] this around religion. Um, and around that, um, because I had a childhood that was absent of those two things that I feel that my mind is very free. And as a Maori writer, I don't have many boundaries About what I, um what I can write and how I can express myself because I wasn't brought up with those things. And I must say, as an adult, um, I feel very, very grateful, Um that those things were absent as a child because I think [00:35:30] what my parents gave me was, um, a free mind. So, um, trying to make sense of my child, Uh, my identity on those two levels are very confusing. I went to, um, university as, um as an adult student and, um, studied English, and I was really, um I was very, very drawn to postmodernism and because to me that made sense of of who I was, Um, and [00:36:00] the things that I liked about it was this, uh, sort of, um, um notion that there is no truth because all of us have a different version of the truth. Um, so And that, um that as globalisation increases that the importance of individual cultures will decline and we will become part of this kind of shared, um, international, Um, culture. I was very attracted to [00:36:30] that because it made sense of my, um, mixed heritage and and how I felt about, um, myself and the different components of that all fitted together. So, um, out of that I, I then, um, studied a lot of Maori literature at university. And what really frustrated me was I couldn't see myself in these stories. And, um, if if you look at, um you know, uh, Maori Films, for example um, you know, there's [00:37:00] once were warriors. There's the Whale Rider. The fable, um, there's again back to, uh, the warrior in history. So I didn't see my contemporary reality, um, reflected back at me. So that then motivated me to write and later on to publish. And that's how I got to being a publisher. So the first thing I did was, um I, uh I decided OK, we need a Maori, um, landfall. And, um what my my beef [00:37:30] at that time was, you know, to me, Maori literature is absent of almost, um, any middle class experience. So I wanted to start a journal to see, actually, you know what is out there? And, um, I've since published two, issues. Um, both of which I. I don't have any copies left. So, um, I couldn't bring them to show you. But the second, um, the second issue was a combination of Maori and abor aboriginal writers. [00:38:00] And I'll just read you, um, a paragraph from the introduction, Um uh, which says that indigenous identities are in a state of flux as they respond to a raft of global economic, social and environmental influences. As a vehicle of cultural survival and change, literature is the space where these evolutions are most clearly in focus. This collection celebrates the identities of the indigenous peoples [00:38:30] of the antiquities and gives us a sense of how Maori and Aboriginal define themselves in this moment. Um, and what I think is, um, happening in terms of writing and publishing is that I think that over time we will see, and what we're witnessing is the disappearance of other because, um what we have with, um uh, um with the domination of publishing, um, dissipating [00:39:00] from these big publishing houses, we have many, many more voices. So we have a multiplicity of voices, and I believe over time that this notion of other will disappear because we will all be other. And I guess my mission as a publisher is to move myself from the periphery into the centre and, um, particularly in my writing, uh, my gaze is towards the heterosexual and, for example, [00:39:30] and, um, so I write as if I'm in the centre looking at them. And that was, um, very much my mission as a writer and, um, and publisher. And where I think that we are heading is from, um, a postcolonial space into, um, a diversity space. Um, where we all have a voice. And certainly that's my, um, mission in publishing. So which brings me back to, uh, my mother's collection of [00:40:00] writing. Um, and this is the, um, second cover which we went to and what I found with the nude on the front cover, which I, um I love that image of my mother. I was brought up with it. Um, but what I found was when I gave the book to people, I could see that it created, um, discomfort. And where I got to was, I thought, Well, I can go on my own artistic trip, but if I'm not going to be able to kind of bring bring people on the journey, then that becomes a block. So I, [00:40:30] um this was the second cover again. My parents are nude. Um, but you can, um but you I mean, this is as much as you see. Um, and in the end, I It was a really interesting journey, which happened over about 18 months. But actually, this is a really, um, a much better reflection of what's inside the book. Which is, um, lots of love poetry, Um, and and about this intense, um, passionate relationship, um, between, uh, a Swiss man and and his maori, um, lover. [00:41:00] And, um, alongside that I published my my sister is also a poet, and this is her, um, and to create some resonance. Um, between the two. we've just got this kind of little connection here. Um, so I'm very also, um, you know, I'm very, um I'm an athlete. I'm very fussy. about aesthetic. Um, this took, um, 18 months to kind of, uh, realise itself. And I know that if I had [00:41:30] been negotiating that, um, with, uh, a a publish publisher, not myself, that it would have been. I mean, it would have been impossible to get this product. So being, I think being, um uh, a self publisher. What it does is it gives me the freedom to, um, have a voice and and also frame it in my own way. And I find that really, really, um, liberating. And, um yeah, I think I think that's, um, probably enough, but, [00:42:00] um, yes. Anyway, thank you very much. Cheers. Yeah. Carol, let's say here, I'm gonna be brief because I think we need a bit of time for discussion. Time's getting on. Um, I love paddling my own waka, and that is one of the reasons that the Women's Bookshop is successful and thriving is because I love [00:42:30] what I do. Um, my job is my hobby is my passion is my life's work. And so I love it. And small, good independent bookshops who know what they're doing and do it well are all thriving. We're not just surviving, we're thriving. And in Auckland, I would name Unity Books in High Street time out in Mount Eden and the Women's Bookshop in In. We used to be in Dominion Road in Ponsonby Road. We are the Those three shops in particular, uh, are all [00:43:00] thriving and doing really well. Um, the Christmas before last, we said, This is the best Christmas ever. The one that's just happened topped it. And I mean, I joke. Now I'll be going almost 27 years. And this Christmas, I actually had money left over in the bank to pay the now huge penguin Random House bill because all your books come from Penguin and Random House and Allen and Unwin in one lot. So your deliveries are huge and the bill is huge. I had enough money left in the bank for the January [00:43:30] payment, and that's the first time ever. And I say it only took me 27 years to do it. Um, over those 27 years, cash flow has often been a nightmare. You get to the end of the month and you haven't got enough money to pay the publishers and, uh, many of them have been extremely patient. But we offer I believe the reason we survive and why Borders didn't and why Whit calls has retrenched and why, um, the big chains are disappearing is that what we can do [00:44:00] in small, independent bookshops is offer a service that no one else can offer, including the Internet. We can we read my staff, all read, and I've just taken on a new staff member. She's 19. She couldn't read much till the university exams finished, and she has been churning through the books in the few weeks that she's being there. She can now speak to customers about the books, and she listens to what we say. And if she hasn't read it, she'll say no. I heard Carol telling someone blah, blah, blah. She's bright, She's smart. [00:44:30] So even our 19 year old can talk to the customers about the books. We gift wrap them. We recommend them. People ring me up from Wellington and say, I'm coming, going to Auckland for Christmas. I need a book for my uncle, A book for my they They list me seven books. I pick the books. I gift wrap them. She arrives from Wellington, picks up her bag of books, gift wrap, and every time we've got it right, so we're offering a service that cannot be offered by anybody else. So that's the first key thing, Um, [00:45:00] the other I'm not gonna be a bit negative. I'm sorry, because there's this idea out there that everybody's got a book on them and I'm sorry. The terrible reality is that many people out there think they've got a book in them, but they haven't. And we have this nightmare of people coming into the bookshop with self published books. And you take one look and we look at each other and what we've actually done is we've to take the load [00:45:30] off me because people come in and say, I've been told to come and talk to Carol. So I now have a staff member who, you know, the the the self published people. We've developed a contract because people have no idea what they're doing at all. And so we they have to go through. We go through it with them and they have. If we decide we're gonna stop their book, they have to sign a contract that says things like this is what it will cost. And if they don't sell, you will have to take them back. And, um, you know, we [00:46:00] will keep them in the shop, and we'll let you know when we come to stock. Take time a year later that none of your books are sold and you need to come and collect them. And if you don't collect them after three months, we're gonna have to put them in the rubbish bin. So come and collect them. Please. Uh, we have to actually spell that out for people because they have no idea they'll ring ring up after a week and say, this is what used to happen. Have any of my books sold yet? Can you pay me? Um and this is the ones that are actually good enough to be accepted. So many of them that come in are crap. I'm [00:46:30] sorry. Let's be blunt. Their covers are appalling. They have not been edited. They need Ian to edit them. They need you with your aesthetics to look at the layout and the design. And one of the great dangers of the Internet is there are no gatekeepers. Anybody can publish any crap they like on the Internet, and a huge percentage of it is absolute crap. And that's I'm sorry, but that's the terrible, negative reality we have to face up to it. So that I I [00:47:00] agree with Joe, there is a pub. There is a problem for the really good writers who, you know, the the the The market in New Zealand is retrenched. We're a very small population, and for the good people, it is harder. I still believe if it's good enough, you'll get it published. Um, but if you're going to publish it yourself, employ one of these editors who is out of work. There are people out there with great skills who can help you learn how to learn about distribution. I mean, people [00:47:30] coming in that they have, they've, um, bringing my book to you. Would you sell it? They have no understanding that someone needs to distribute it to bookshops around the country they have no idea about and marketing. And there are publicists out there who, from publishing companies, a lot of of, um, self-employed publish publicists who set up their own little companies who will help you promote and market that book. But there's a whole writing. The book is just one part of it, and even when it's good, that's just one part of it. It has to be sold [00:48:00] and distributed. It has to be marketed OK, and people have no idea about that. Can I tell you the key thing? If any of you are thinking of of publishing a book, you have to put it on Nielsen book data. It's a free service. I can give you her email if you don't know what it is. You just email the email her the the woman whose name I forget at Neilsen who who receives all the information. It's a free service. She will give you a list of what you have to give her a cover image. A brief [00:48:30] blurb about the book, all the details about it. It goes up on Nielsen book data online, and that is the resource that all English speaking booksellers the world over use to find a book. So if you publish a book and it's not on Nielsen, a customer comes in and says, um, Harry. Blogs published this book called So and So and I look it up, and it's not on Nielsen. It doesn't exist as far as a bookseller is concerned. The book does not exist because [00:49:00] there is no way we can find it. So the most key thing, and it's it's the top thing on our list of things. On the contract of things you must do. Number one listed on Nielsen book data online. It is absolutely crucial. Um, so I'm sorry to be negative, but, you know, if you're gonna write something, give it to your friends and ask them to be honest, you know, um, because really, there is a lot of stuff [00:49:30] out there that you know is it's just not good enough. Sorry. Um, but the good stuff is is going well. And people, I do believe have gone back to real books, and I agree about we are selling. Um, by the way, if you're gonna get an E reader by a cobo, not a I have to do my political thing here by a cobo, not a kindle. Kindle has become this name like Electrolux means vacuum cleaner. Kindle means E reader kindles are evil. [00:50:00] They are connected to to Amazon. One of the many reasons that penguin and random house have joined forces is that as a now huge company, they are big enough to tell Amazon to E off. And that's one of the reasons they've done it. Because Amazon demand these huge, huge, um, percentages off the books they buy. And you've got to be a really big publishing company to resist that, um so Amazon is really evil. Um, and [00:50:30] and and I mean act politically, so, so nasty. I mean, they don't pay taxes. They actually bribe people to go into my bookshop, take a photograph of the, um of the back cover or the title page of the book with the bar code and the ISB and then order it from Amazon, and they reward them for doing that. I mean, really evil business practises. Um, the good thing about is that New Zealand libraries use Cobos. You can borrow books on your you can actually use Cobo on your iPad or your phone or [00:51:00] other devices. Um, and um, you can do that just either going to our website and clicking on the Cobo button or going directly to Cobo and load them onto your own devices. So please remember, use Cobos website rather than than, um, Kindle kindle Amazon. Same thing. And remember, the book depository is now owned by Amazon as well. Um, so avoid them. Go if you can. To a small, independent bookshop. We are thriving. We do it well. And we welcome [00:51:30] you. Yeah. Kyoto Carol panel. Um, that was a fantastic overview of what's going on. Great to hear about the, um, the pushback from bookshops. But, yes, I think that it's an interesting week because, um, Amazon has just opened a shop in Seattle. Yeah, they're opening a series of bookshops, so they're on to you, kind of, um, but what you [00:52:00] said Carol reminded me of something that Finlay McDonald who I think said Harper Collins isn't. He said on media with an O'Brien when he was talking, and he said, The period we come out we're coming out of was actually an unusual period with the proliferation of publishing, and he said that, like what you're saying there actually were a lot of books that saw the light that probably shouldn't have, because it's not that long ago that New Zealand writers had to be published in England or Australia or America. You know, we are coming out of an odd a bit of an odd period. So [00:52:30] what's really encouraging and what everyone's been saying is that it's now possible to get these voices out there. There's a multiplicity of voices. It seems to me one of the thinking about this session. The big challenge is how do you connect with your audience? Um so, Chris, tell us how, how I mean, what are your thoughts about how you how self purposes can connect with audiences? I think a gay audience is probably easier to connect with than a diverse audience because you can target. I mean gay NZ dot com, for instance, were fantastic. Jackie Stanford, you know, would do stories [00:53:00] on all of our books. They go on Facebook, they get linked through to that. So that kind of electronic, um, publicity within a queer community is actually easier to do, I think because you can identify the community When we sold um, Manu fictions, we developed a mailing list from the copies we sold directly. We could use that mailing list to sell the next set of books through, so I actually have a fair, and I'm going to talk in the next session about my forthcoming teenager book. I wouldn't like to market [00:53:30] that myself and I, I might tell you why then, but But the gay, um, the gay books are easier because the niche is identifiable and and you can actually get into it. And wouldn't every studies course on the planet be looking at your books as part of their course list? That would be nice. Long term, Anton. What are your thoughts about the promotion and connecting with audiences? Um, I think that, um, with Mum's book, for example. I mean, she had her own, you know, she had her [00:54:00] own brand was aware, um, things that have really helped that sell. And we've just gone on to the second print run just before Christmas. So the first one sold really quickly and really Well, um, and that was because of our own notoriety. But, I mean, you just for me. I mean, my my background in P A You can't beat mainstream media. You know, your interviews on Radio New Zealand? Um, all that sort of thing. As soon as I did that, um um, we would get spikes in sales in terms [00:54:30] of thinking about being a text university with the, um, with the literary journals, for example, I would have thought that I would have thought a new journal of contemporary Maori writing. They'll be banging my door down. But I, I think it's really, really subjective. So I've just, um, I. I had boxes and boxes of the first issue left over, so I thought, I'm going to throw half of them away. And two weeks later, University approached me, sort of saying, Can we have buy a whole set? I mean, but that's taken, um, four years. And that was really because of [00:55:00] who I knew. That was a friend. He said, Yeah. And, um, it just did occur to me as somebody who works at the National Library to anyone who has published and and their books are in New Zealand libraries. You should be registered for the public lending right, which, um, registration closes for the next year and first of March. If you don't know what I'm talking about, ask me afterwards. Ian, um was interested in your thoughts after having heard from this whole whole brains trust. And just one. I wanted your thoughts about one thing that occurred to me also in thinking about this intellectual property protection, because [00:55:30] it's all very well to sort of get your material out there. But is there a risk if you are doing it yourself and it doesn't go out with the sort of contractual protection that it might through a publishing house, what are the risks there? And I think you know, the the list you read of those best sellers is very soul. But also, you know what we were talking about last night? The fact that dangerous desires came out of a major publishing house. You know, publishers add an enormous amount of value, I mean, and so, you know, I've had the experience of working with big houses. It's it's extraordinary. I know the models are changing, but you know, I, I always think it's important [00:56:00] to acknowledge the value. And I mean the the one of the upsides in this conversation today is this idea that there's a whole raft of unemployed editors and designers and publicists out there waiting to help. But anyway, your thoughts Ian, about what? What The West have said today. Um, well, as far as copyright protection is concerned. I think that's a difficulty for, um, all kinds of creative producers and, um I, I think without a publishing house behind you, it's difficult to keep control of of anything [00:56:30] like that. I simply say to people, when they do put their material out there to, um, ensure that, uh, you know, it has got a copyright sign on it at least, and, um, to make sure that it is, uh, registered in, um uh in in an official way. One comment on on Ian's five. Sorry, Joe on Ian's top five is that the top one was actually the, um, Dan Carter bio was [00:57:00] actually published by Upstart Press, which is has been mentioned today and other, and that is a little a little, um, publishing house. But it was. It's been set up by Kevin Chapman, who used to be the managing director of Hachette, which we've also mentioned as being gone set up, as he used to do brilliant rugby and sports books with his. He's now doing it under Upstart, but he also published Greg McGee's Um, novel, which is what's it called, Um, which is, uh, um, long list for the in the fiction section [00:57:30] of the, um of the the now called New Zealand Book Awards. And so that is a tiny publisher doing really well doing good stuff in New Zealand to say that, um, I, I actually think that the that the real future is, um, with independent, uh, publishers, publishing companies and and bookstores. I really I do believe that because I think it does represent much a much more diverse voice because I think that that big, um, big, uh, blockbuster [00:58:00] huge corporations deal in blockbuster themes. Ideas? Yeah, So it's It's Yeah, yeah, it is. But the one of the things that I found really interesting I visited um, Harper Collins in London in the in the new kind of news building, and I would talk to one of the one of the big bosses there, and he did say that Now, now mainstream big publishers go through all the, um, the self published books and look at [00:58:30] sales, and then they approach the authors. So So So it's It's quite an interesting thing. So if you I didn't realise that and and he said, lots of people are putting their books on, you know, and selling them that way. And the big publishers are going through looking at the sales and going, Yeah, we we'll we'll publish it. And the shades of shades of grey. Yeah, it was one of those self published, you know, and really, really badly done, but yeah, but But the thing is that, you know, I think if I'm I'm I would [00:59:00] always go mainstream if I can. But the independent and smaller things I think are looking much more attractive, much more they've they've got that kind of ability to run and move fast and and be intelligent and thoughtful and and actually put some integrity into it, which, I think, um, you know, just doesn't happen with the those those huge corporations which are just about bucks. They just about that money. And, you know, I mean, as a writer, you you Everybody knows that you can You don't write for the money. That's [00:59:30] if you did. You would do something else. I would sell my body better, I think, for more money than almost the science, perhaps, but, um, you know it for more money. Uh, then then I could, um uh, you know, my, um you know making even even The New York Times. But you know, the thing is that there are lots of options, and I I think what you have to do is, if you've got something that you think is great, then maybe you will find a publisher. And if you haven't, if you still think it's great and you've run it past your friends and then you've got [01:00:00] some experts to look at the design and look at the way the editing and you and you've got a good product, it's got a chance out there because there is. There are people looking for those sort of sales and there is an audience here. I mean, it's amazing to see all the people have come to today. You know, I I'm not, you know, not that much. Um, you know, marketing. Really? I mean, who can afford to do that? But there is a we we are. We are hungry readers. And New Zealand. New Zealand is hungry for New Zealand stories, so I think that as long as [01:00:30] that happens, what a great night. We're out of time. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. There isn't time for questions, but you know the best way to ask these guys questions is to buy their books and have a chat at the table out there where they'll be very soon. They're very diverse. You'll see it's a mixed picture in this brave new world. But, um, I think the thing that links these guys together is this incredible passion, Um, for the work that they do And and I guess that's the one of the lessons is that's what gets you there. In the end, if you've got that passion and, uh, and the belief in what you're doing and your writing, then you will get there and, um, also take notice of what they've said. [01:01:00] All of these people that are out there to help, uh, realise that that passion and that dream So join me in thanking this fabulous brains trust panel this afternoon.

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TITLE: Larger Than Life Stories - Same Same But Different
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VOICES: Alison Mau; Carole Beu; Joanne Drayton; Julie Glamuzina
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1940s; 1950s; 1990s; 2010s; Alison Mau; Anglicanism; Anne Perry; Aotearoa New Zealand; Archives New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland University of Technology; Burwood Hospital Plastic Surgery Unit; Canada; Carole Beu; Catherine Deneuve; Christchurch; Christianity; Dictionary of New Zealand Biography; Edith Collier; Enid Blyton; Fair Go (tv); First Lady: From Boyhood to Womanhood (book); Frances Hodgkins; Frances Hodgkins: A Private Viewing (book); HarperCollins Publishers; Harrods (UK); High Court; Joanne Drayton; Jonathan Elsom; Julie Glamuzina; Juliet Hulme; KG Club (Auckland); Lesley Lawson; Liz Roberts; London; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); MtF; Neil Armstrong; Ngaio Marsh; Ngaio Marsh: Her Life in Crime (book); Oprah Winfrey; Parker and Hulme: a lesbian view (book); Patricia Wentworth; Pauline Parker; Perfectly Natural: The audacious story of Iris Florence Peter Williams (book); Peter Wells; Peter Williams; Radclyffe Hall; Samesame But Different (2016); TVNZ (Television New Zealand); The Search for Anne Perry (book); Tom Milliken; United Kingdom; University of Auckland; Upstart Press; Vancouver; Victoria Park (Christchurch); Vikings; art history; biography; birth certificate; books; broadcasting; church; crime; dignity; double mastectomy; elders; family; friends; gender identity; gender reassignment surgery; ghost writing; gynaecologist; herstory; history; hospital; humour; identity; identity documents; integrity; journalism; language; law; lesbian; makeup; marriage; marriage certificate; marriage equality; marriage records; media; movies; murder; mystery novel; newspapers; of the lesbian type; one of those sort of women; oppression; pensioner; police; regrets; religion; sex; spirituality; storytelling; surgeon; surgery; television; transgender; travel; women; writing
DATE: 13 February 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Auckland University of Technology, 55 Wellesley Street East, Auckland
CONTEXT: Audio from the session: Larger Than Life Stories.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Now we're going to, um, hear about three remarkable women who have written about three remarkable women, and I want to know how they initially how they came to write, choose their subjects and write books about someone else's life. So first of all, we have Ali Mao, who many of you know is, um, a broadcaster and, um has been a television presenter and has been a wonderful, um, leader [00:00:30] in our community in terms of being a high profile person who was proud to come out. And, of course, now she is an author. And she'll be followed by Joanne Drayton, who some of you heard last night, who has, um, who works particularly in the area of of art and, um, art history and history generally, and has written some marvellous biographies of women artists Edith Collier and all sorts of other women artists, many of whom are obscure and would would remain in obscurity if it wasn't for people like Joanne actually [00:01:00] bringing them out into the light. Um, in particular I mean, also, um, who's the crime writer Nia Marsh as well. And then, of course, the the book that became The New York Times best seller, Uh, the search for Anne Perry. And the thing about Anne Perry, I think, is that in this she's not so popular in New Zealand. I mean, we don't sell her her crime books in the women's Bookshop. No one ever asks us for them, but she's a huge hit in the States. So, um, everybody reads Anne Perry crime novels in America. And so they were fascinated by this [00:01:30] book, and it became a New York Times best seller. And then Julie. Now, Julie, how do I pronounce it? Julie has written perfectly natural, which is an extraordinary story of Florence, who became Peter Williams and lived her entire life as a man. And this is a very interesting piece of New Zealand history. So I'm going to ask each of these women first of all to talk about how they came to choose this subject and [00:02:00] how they went about writing about someone else's life. A um, first of all, thank you so much for for inviting me to speak here. This You have no idea how thrilling this is. I'm a first time writer, uh, apart from my journalism over the years, so I'm just beyond speechless. Really? Um, and I'm really most excited about listening to our other authors today, so I'll get my bit over as quickly as I can. Um, most of you do know me as a broadcaster. Um, and I do have, I suppose, 30 years in that space. [00:02:30] But, um, I am also the daughter of a writer who was the son of a writer. I'm a third generation journalist, Uh, and I am the teenager whose essays, school essays, um, were eviscerated by my father with a blue pencil, every single one I had to bring home. And and he edited. Um, so I've always thought of myself as a writer. First in a in a funny kind of way, although, uh, for years, I haven't really been able to express that in any meaningful [00:03:00] way. Um, but I don't think it's a stretch to say that most journalists, uh, have a secret hankering to write a book. Well, I found this out, Um, really strongly. When I did some press for for first lady. And, uh, most journalists I spoke to would spend about half an hour asking me questions about the book and then half an hour grilling me about what it was like to write the book kind of off the record because they were working on their own projects. Um, many of us spend our careers, I think, looking [00:03:30] for the right story that the really important story that speaks to us, um, preferably one that's never been told before and can't be told in a short form in a newspaper or magazine article. And, uh, I know I did almost unknowingly spent my career looking for that. And I'm incredibly fortunate to have come across Liz Roberts and her very important life story. Um, we met. How did we come across each other? Uh, in 2012, I was working on fair go and, [00:04:00] uh, the close up programme at TV. NZ asked me to come on and talk about same sex marriage. They wanted a debate that first of all, they wanted me to debate to debate with a Catholic priest, and my son had just started a Catholic school. So I said, uh, that's probably not a good idea. So in the end, I went up against a Baptist minister and we had actually quite a cordial debate, which I won. Well, at that stage reform, you know, there was such a tide of reform that I couldn't possibly lose, [00:04:30] I think, Um, Anyway, uh, the next day at my desk at fair, go, um, the front desk put a call through which they never do from a stranger. And it was an elderly Christchurch lady who introduced herself as Elizabeth. And she just called to congratulate me on what I how I had done on the programme the night before, which was really lovely of her. And we got chatting. And after about half an hour, I said to her, Liz, has anybody written your life story? And she said Somebody had once [00:05:00] tried, but it was so sanitised that she chucked it in the bin, which gives you a little bit of a taste of what Liz is like. Um, she's quite, uh and I made the rash offer. I said, I'll write it. Which was ridiculous. Really? Because I'd never written a book or even tried to write a book. Um, and I went home all excited and said to Carlene, uh, I'm gonna write this book, this woman's life story. And she was furious at me. She said, you you have to do it now because you've made the promise [00:05:30] to her. So now you have to go through with it. And don't you dare. You know, don't let me find you reneging. Um, so I did. And Liz and I started to meet and to talk. It took us two years. Uh, we did about 50 to 60 hours of interview. And, of course, as we talked, we we became more familiar with each other and and friends, and our sessions got more chatty and gossipy. And in the end, transcribing it all so that I could write the book was an absolute nightmare because there were long [00:06:00] tracks of when we would talk about dogs and kids and pointless chat. Um, so that was something I've learned, uh, for next time to stay a bit more focused. Uh, in my research, Um, I think much of the process of a first time author, um, is driven by fear. Uh, I I'm very, very, very grateful to upstart press and to Warren Holder, um, who committed to the book without even saying a word of it. Um, this is a small publishing company [00:06:30] who mainly print cookbooks and rugby and rugby books, and that's how they make their money. Um, but they also, um you know, they Greg McGee, publisher. So they also do, uh, work in other spaces. And this was a risk. This is taking an enormous risk, This book and I'm so grateful to upstart for, uh, actually, their commitment helped push me through the process. I. I suspect I might have given up at some point if it hadn't been [00:07:00] for them. Um, so I'm very, very grateful to them. Um, I suppose I do know now what my writing process is, and it's this I. I write a chapter, then I rewrite and then I rewrite it again. And then I put it in the in a draw, literally in a hard copy form on paper, in a drawer for a month. And then I take it out again and I rewrite it again. Uh, and I, you know, kind of dragged the process out a bit. Um, because I was so determined, [00:07:30] I think also because it was my first outing that it be right, but also because it's not my story. Um, it's somebody else's story and I felt an enormous weight of responsibility for that. Um, there was one principle that I was determined to stick through to through the whole thing. It had to be in Liz's voice. It had to sound like Liz. And Liz is a very pragmatic person. She tells her stories. Uh, she told me her life story with great humour, [00:08:00] but she she's she doesn't add any frills. So my natural writer's, um, impetus to dress it up. Uh, I had to go and take all that out again if it started to slip in, Uh, because she speaks in a very spare manner and it had to be in her voice. I had to sound like her. Exactly or I'd failed. Um, and when it was published, one of her closest friends wrote to me and said that when he read it, it was like Liz was sitting across the room telling him the story. [00:08:30] So he actually wrote the forward for the book as well. So it was an enormous compliment. Um, I suppose that a life retold to someone else's by necessity makeup of the stories that we recall from childhood and from our early adulthood and love affairs and travel and sickness. And in Lisa's case, lots of surgery. Um, and all of that has to be woven into a narrative that pulls the reader through the story to the end. Because [00:09:00] my other great hope for this book was that it wouldn't be just a piece of New Zealand history. Um, history, if it's not, uh, written entertainingly can be very dull. Um, so it had to be a book that you wanted to read as well, and that would hold you till the end. Um, I wanted to write it as a selection of stories under a group like a A group under the headings. But the publisher told me No, they'd rather it be chronological. So then I had to start again. I pulled it apart [00:09:30] and started again, Um, and matching up the dates of events from somebody's life going as far back as 19 forties, Christchurch was quite difficult. Um, I had a lot of, you know, revisiting Liz and trying to knit, um, times and dates together and events together. That was probably the hardest part of putting them together in the end. Really? Oh, good. I'm so glad because I started to panic. At that point, there was stuff that didn't match [00:10:00] up. And I had to go back to her many times and say No, no, that chapter appears to take place in 1917, and then suddenly we're in 1983. So that was difficult. Um, some things had to be left out, and I know, and I know that you want What did you have to leave out or choose to leave out later? Yeah, Um, just in finishing, I would absolutely write another, uh, ghost Write another biography if I ever came across [00:10:30] a story as incredible as Liz's. Um, And I hope I get that opportunity at some point. So that's first lady. OK, right. And now Anne Perry. Thank you. OK, um uh, I, uh, thank you very much, um, for this opportunity, and it's just wonderful to be here. And it's amazing how early everybody's got out of bed to be here on a Saturday morning. And I thank you very much for that. I found it hard, so I'm sure you did too, but, um I, I guess [00:11:00] with, uh with, uh, I. I should explain that, um, after writing art history for, um, many years. Um, II. I got to the stage where I was sick of looking at paintings and I wanted a dead body because I I wanted a dead body. Because III I was always thrilled and captivated by kind of working out being a detective, working out a plot, uh, trying to trying to sit there as the as the reader and and work out who who did it or who done it, Um, for, uh, the [00:11:30] The author actually told me the writer told me. So I was, uh, So Nia Marsh was one of my great passions, And I can remember I I actually, Patricia went with when I was, um, in my, um, teenage years and then Nia Marsh when I was breastfeeding, Um, just to just to kind of because it was one that I could put down and I could do all sorts of other things and I could come back to Nia Marsh and she was reliable and there was always a death, and you could kind of tie it up at the end. And it was much [00:12:00] more made much more sense than my life did at that time. So Nia Marsh was just wonderful. I loved writing about her. I met her as an eight year old, and my one of the great proteges was Jonathan Elson. And he was, um he he was acting in a play on and I I met, um, Marsh came. She came into the room and her kind of nose almost preceded her around the corner of the door. So she was and and and she boomed away. And I and my mother said, You know, she's one of those sort of women [00:12:30] And I thought, What because I was only eight? And I thought, What are those good sort of women? And it intrigued me and and but But she also So So when I when I wrote the book and finished the book on Marsh and I still hadn't hadn't lost my blood lust for dead bodies Um, I thought Anne Perry, this is the perfect, um subject. Because I had grown up with I. I knew Marsh, but I had grown up with the story of Anne Perry or or Juliet Hume and Pauline Parker. Um, my [00:13:00] mother went to school with them. She sat, Just stop me if I give me an evil look, OK, uh, evil. Look, I I'll get it out of the side of my own. Uh, I'll feel it. Um, So So this My mother used to stand behind them in assembly, and she thought that relationship was too intense. And we're a little bit weird because they they were very, um, separated and very much in this whole kind of, um, unit. Um, but, you know, she she also felt, I think quite profoundly that [00:13:30] they were young and she understood, uh, that they were persecuted and treated in a way that she felt even though the horror of what they did was, you know, overwhelming. And it overwhelmed everyone that that that it was inappropriate. And she was a contemporary of this. So I grew up with a little bit of balance, but not much, because it was my mother. And, um, and also the cautionary tale of, um, Victoria Park and, um, and going up there and bricking, um, the mother [00:14:00] to death. And I grew up with that story, and it was, and it taught you not to be a lesbian because it was the one story. It was it, you know? You know how sort of you know those fairy stories? They teach you something, don't they? Well, the one message in this fairy story was that you don't You're not. You don't want to do that. So I didn't, um and so and so not only I didn't, but I married an Anglican minister, which seems incredibly extreme, but But, I mean, it was I was terrorised by that story. I really was. So [00:14:30] I wanted to do everything I could to stop, you know, going there. Um, obviously it didn't work. Um, so So So, in a way, that was the story of my life. That was my story. But that was many people's story and I. I wanted to unpack and unravel it. And when I started the first book, the Anne Perry book, I read, uh, well, I I actually came out. She was revealed. Suddenly, this, um, crime detective fiction writer was revealed as my mother's chum at school or contemporary at least. And, [00:15:00] um so I sent um uh, I. I sent my mother the book for the first book that I managed to get hold of for her birthday, and I wrote. Look what your your school buddy is up to now. So So it was my story. I wanted to and and I thought, of course, now that I've written, she would instantly think that I was the best option and know instantly that that that that was the story. And so I wrote, um, appealingly to her, I believe, But it was actually to her, um, agent and I got the the you [00:15:30] know, First of all, I got that. We don't think she's she's ready for this or interested in this. And so I thought, Well, that's a bit of a turn off, but maybe she will be in. And then I got the dear John letter. Don't bother. You know she's not interested. Uh, you know, we'll get back to you if she ever is. And we I knew she wouldn't be because she had actually turned down Oprah Winfrey. So I wasn't, you know that? Mortified. Um, So I was I was I was handling it, but what actually happened was I went on a trip. We did some filming on Marsh in London. I came back on one of those long haul flights, and [00:16:00] you get. You're sitting there with your mask on, trying to go to sleep. And I've just been reading this book on in and and it was sort of written from someone who actually was passionate about her writing. And I thought I can write this book about her writing. You know, I don't need to have Anne Perry involved in this. So I wrote this very gory, uh, proposal. Uh, and I sent it into Harper Collins anyway. And, um and And what? What do you know? Um, ultimately, they gave me a contract, and then So there I was with a contract. No, [00:16:30] no, no. I was subject to be involved with it, And I realised how really difficult that is. And and something maybe you you you probably felt, uh, you know, at at the time, although you didn't know who she was, you did. Yeah, but no one else did. Um, so So, um, essentially, um, II I my partner said, Why didn't you, um, write to her? So I wrote to her agent and said, I have a contract. She said Congratulations. Seeing the proposal far out, I thought that's amazing. So I cut all the gory bits out [00:17:00] or some of them. And I got onto the reflective part, which was really what I was going to write about anyway. But this the gory bits were just in case the panel was too young to remember. Um, so So what? I but I? I did include this and and and and and it is It is amazing to have discovered a voice for Juliet Hume and the writing of Anne Perry and New Zealand needs to listen. It is time to move out of the 19 fifties, the details of which have been frozen in time and ground over long enough. In today's context, this is punitive [00:17:30] and embarrassing. Anne Perry's story needs to grow to leave behind the terrible mistake of a of a young teenager and mature to acknowledge the remarkable adult contribution and achievements of one of the world's most well known crime, DS. So I sent it off and I thought, Well, that will be the last I will hear from them, you know, and and I. It was early morning because I had to kind of tidy up my proposal and cut the bits out that were ugly and so I sent it off, and, um, the next morning there [00:18:00] were two, emails from from her from her agent. And, um, when I opened the first one and it said, um, thank you very much, this is very helpful. I'll pass it on to Anne and the next one said, Anne, I'll meet you in London in July. So, um so here we are Oprah, you should have, um the But But there is a right time for people and it was the right time for her. And it was she She had something she wanted to say. And maybe even [00:18:30] at that stage, instinctively, she felt that I was a safe person to do that with and and like, you know, the interviews were like, just like, you know, I used to go out walking because there was so much drivel that didn't mean any. But that's because people need to be safe. And in some ways it's all those spaces and the stuff that you leave out that actually pulls out of people the the heart of of of their their story. So and it comes out of those safe moments when in some ways you they know that you care. [00:19:00] And I think that's that's all you have to do with biography is care. You have to care for the person's story. You have to, uh, well, and I think, Well, I can probably just about leave it there. Um, but, uh, you know, I think I think that that we can talk about spaces and gaps later. That's great. I mean, that's what you were saying, too, that the sense of responsibility and so that you as an author, your integrity is is paramount. Yeah. So, Julie a a woman who lived as a man all [00:19:30] her life in a in a time when really it was not done. So, um, first of all, I'd like to thank Peter, um, for creating, um, such a historic event, which this weekend and this week and so on is So, um, it's, uh, fantastic to to, um and I would like to acknowledge the, um, Alison and Joanne for their contributions as well, as well as their subjects, um, to our lives, broadly and generally. And, uh, not through the lens of the heterosexual world. [00:20:00] So I think that's most important. Um, how did I come to write this book. Um, I think there's for me. There's two, two, beginnings. One is, um, coming out as a lesbian in Auckland in the 19 seventies, going to a club down on Beach Road. Where? There. I walked in, and there were some people here who might have been there at the time. I walked in and I looked around and and, uh, there were, you know, a number of women there. It was all very hush hush. It was, um, the The [00:20:30] location was above a motorcycle club. Um, so you sort of went up this side, um, stair stairwell. I looked around, I met some people, women there. And I thought, Where are the older women that they were? All younger women seem to me anyway. Maybe they weren't. Maybe they were just very youthful because of their lesbian lifestyle. But I thought that we are the old women. And as a historian, I thought, um uh, you know, where where where's my lesbian history? And at that, that point [00:21:00] it was really that night, I decided I wanted to write, um uh, the lesbian histories or histories from a lesbian perspective. I was a student at Auckland University at the time doing a master's in history. So, um, so that's one strand the second, um, I suppose the trigger final trigger for, um, my book, um, actually arose out of the park and Hume, um, work. And, um, I was at a con, um, giving a presentation, [00:21:30] and a member of the audience came up much like, you know, you said in your interview, um, a member of the audience came up and said, uh, you might be interested in this, and they held up a newspaper article, and it was about, um it was an article about two women who had, uh, got married in 1945 in Auckland and who were found out to be, um Well, they were found out later to be two women. Um, but at the time, one of them, um, was presenting as a man, and [00:22:00] this was Peter Williams. And, um uh, So there was a whole newspaper article, but I had only, um, a profile. Uh, in the profile was, uh, some details about, um, Peter some details about his wife, some details about their backgrounds, and that's it. Um, so that was about 1990 something, and it set, Um, I was busy. Um uh, I was working. Uh, I had some [00:22:30] very, um, involved jobs. So for six months, I'd be out of the frame, so to speak. Um, and then I'd come back to it and think, Oh, how can I find out? I'll never find out who these people are. Um, and then I started again, Probably in the early two thousands or something like that. So your two years was actually super quick and your multiple multiple, um, books, Uh, you know, pretty prolific. So, [00:23:00] um, so, uh, I I picked it up again at that point. Um and so I'm really gonna try and nail this. So, uh, with the profiles, um, I I had a date as well, so I knew roughly the date of their marriage. So, um, it was a very, um, detailed. Um, uh, trail through boo's, uh, deaths and marriages records, starting with a marriage record. Um, so the marriage was 1945 July. Uh, certain date. There was a profile [00:23:30] given of each of the people. Um, and those details were not correct. Um, so, uh, I went through I spent some many days in the archives going national archives, going through the, um, records of the time looking for a profile that was sort of in that area. Um, that matched a 30 year old and an 18 year old 45 Auckland, blah, blah. And, uh, I went back one night and I thought from yesterday's, um, analysis, [00:24:00] I think there's maybe could be about 10 or 20 possibilities. And I went back the next day, had another look, and then I thought, It's got to be this one. I don't know why I hadn't seen it the day before, but, you know, you get caught up with with, um, cross referencing as you mentioned, um, with, um, cross checking, Um and, uh, it's got to be that one. The reason I couldn't just go and get the records, um, in full was that it costs a lot of money for each. Each time you ask, it costs, you know? [00:24:30] So I couldn't just say, Oh, give me the 100 or so, Um um uh, full marriage certificates. Um, So finally I got I got several marriage certificates and there was the one, and I knew it was the right one, because across it handwritten was, um, the parties to this marriage with both females. And, uh, this record is not to be released or words to that effect. Put a copy there. So, um, with that, I knew I had the right people. [00:25:00] I still didn't have the right information. Um uh, but I took the next step. So looking, uh, trying to search. Who were the parents? Where did they come from? What Children? You know, who were the Children who were the siblings and so on. And then that led to another whole, um, mechanical, um, mathematical search through the birth records, um, and references to areas of New Zealand because I wasn't quite sure where which area of New Zealand they'd come from. So, um, anyway, [00:25:30] that's how I came to find out who the people were. Um, and one of the things in the paper intrigued me at the time. And the two women had declared to the police who interviewed them. Um, because what they did was illegal. You could not get married if you were two women at that time. Um, that, uh, they were both as they put it. Um of the lesbian type, so I thought Oh, OK, This is interesting. There's another angle. So, um, but I wasn't sure, but, uh, I needed [00:26:00] to find out more about the people. So, um um, I then trailed through um um, you know, the the background, the histories of the families and so on. Um, in the course of doing that, um, I think maybe we come to it later, Um, about what's left in and what's what's, uh, what's left out. Um, I had to fill in some gaps, Um, going through in terms of, um, uh, I didn't have all the details. [00:26:30] And as I say later, um, there's only one person who knows about their life, and that's the person themselves. And there's only one person who can say who they are and what they are, and that's that person themselves. So what we are doing are approximations about that person and approximations of their lives. But in doing that, my my purpose and coming back to what you were saying about really caring um, I do really care about the subject. My purpose and the people I've written about and found out about is I do really care. And I think, um it's amazing that, um um [00:27:00] Peter Williams, Iris, Florence Peter Williams lived, um, as he wanted to live. Um, all those years, um, in contrast to the prescriptions of the time and as they were supposed to have been as opposed to what he wanted to be, and he lived as he wanted to be. So, um, and that brings you back to looking at the context of the times. And why did the people make the choices they had to? And, uh, how did they survive in the ways they had to? Um [00:27:30] So maybe, um, um, a viewer looking now could look back and say, Oh, they performed a criminal act. They made They got married and pretended they were who they weren't or oh, they falsified a birth record. Um, which was the case for Peter, Um, to say that, uh, in this case, um, that he was born male when we we know that was not true. Uh oh. That's another criminal act. No, it isn't. There are acts of survival in [00:28:00] the face of, um, oppression and prescription. So, um, II I my regret is that I didn't get to meet Peter. Um, and I did meet, um, his first wife or spoke to his first wife and also his last partner. Um, but, uh, I think, uh, all of these, uh, aspects of New Zealand history and I just allude to the Dictionary of New Zealand biography, actually, which was a, um, a catalogue of, um, hundreds [00:28:30] of people, um, a government, um, objective. And, uh, it catalogues through the lives of individuals the histories of, you know, our our our location. Um, and I think through individual histories, we learn very much about, um, our world. So, um, a very brave man and a very brave woman in your case and a woman who was slightly elusive in some ways. Um, So let's talk about and and you can answer in any order, [00:29:00] uh, it doesn't have to go along the line. Um, what did you leave out? I mean, what did what do you include? And what do you leave out and how do you make those decisions? And are you influenced by, uh, in your case as the live person? If I may say, um uh when I spoke to, um, Peter's first wife. Um So she was the other person in the 1945 marriage. Um, not his first partner, but his first wife. Um, I said, um, I'd really like you to, you know, Would you contribute? [00:29:30] Would you be prepared to speak, um, about this? And she said no. Um, that's water under the bridge, which was a real shame. But I understand. Um, and, uh, I spoke also with, um, his first wife's, um, brother. And he gave me some information, which then, um, allowed me to fill in some more gaps. Um, and I also spoke to his last partner, And she, um, did not wish the book to [00:30:00] go ahead in the way that it was. Um, so we made some adjustments to it, and I've, um I've changed some names in the book. Um, so that, um the, uh, living people, uh, have some protection. And, uh, but the events in the book, uh, they did happen. They happened. They really happened. Um, we had to change some names. Not very many. And we didn't really have to take anything out of the finished manuscript. Um, we [00:30:30] had to leave out some of Liz's favourite stories because I think when you live a life as hard as she has lived, uh, you are left with a certain view of the world, um, which can come across as quite unsympathetic at times. Um, and I think it's important that your protagonist is sympathetic in, you know, in. Otherwise, readers will just put the book down. Um, that's not to say we falsified her story at all, [00:31:00] but there are a couple of stories that just didn't fit within the the book at all. I couldn't find a place for them, and Liz and I kind of had a couple of arguments about what? You know, whether that was OK, that it was left out, and in the end, she was fine with it. I would have liked to have told more about the surgeon that did her first surgery. But just like you, you just said about, um, Peter Williams' first wife. Was it, um, we contacted him and he was in a by the stage [00:31:30] in a rest home in Christchurch. He was a general surgeon in 19. Uh, no, I think he was. He'd just been for a short amount of time. Part of the Burwood plastic surgery, Um, team the team at Burwood Hospital in Christchurch. Um, in the quite early days of plastic surgery, and he agreed to do this surgery on a man, um, that nobody had ever heard of in New Zealand before He'd read about it in a, um, [00:32:00] medical journal article. And that was it. That was the extent of his knowledge. And at the time he said to her that he would not, Um I will not make you a vagina, Elizabeth, because I will not play God and, um, high status to give a vagina. I'm pleased. I think he's got it. So, um, but he did agree to make her look like a woman on the [00:32:30] outside, and he didn't really know what he was doing. Um, fast forward to to us contacting him. And he he used to even acknowledge I mean, he admitted that, yes, he was the Tom Milliken that had carried out the surgery, but he said, That's another lifetime. Um, I'm not that person anymore, and I don't wish to to speak about it at all. And he just died just a couple of months ago, actually, um, I, I really would have liked [00:33:00] to have got inside his head and and had his memories of the extraordinary thing that he he did and they had to hide it, you know, they booked her into hospital and he did the surgery and they had to hide it from all the nurses. And nobody was to know that you know what the surgery that they were doing. And luckily, by chance, um, Neil Armstrong was stepping out onto the surface of the moon that day, so everybody was rather distracted, and they managed to kind of flip it through [00:33:30] without, um, without anybody realising, except for the nurse that was looking after Liz in the ward, who was just brutal to her because she was she was so disapproving that that, well, she I think they did it in the I'm just sorting through because there was. There's lots of surgery in the book. Um, and I think it happened in the women's Well. She was in a women's ward and the nurse, the matron, was extremely disapproving, and the nurses treated her very badly, Um, to the point where they moved her to another [00:34:00] ward where they were a bit nicer. But you know, they would leave her. You know, she was completely bandaged from here to here. Um, and they had They took us, you know, a large amount of skin from her thigh to try and construct this, um, this genitalia and, uh, she so she couldn't move, and they would. The nurses would put her food, her breakfast on the, you know, on the trolley and then wheeled the trolley out of reach, you know, and stuff like that. Um, so, [00:34:30] uh, you know, nevertheless, they managed to get this this extraordinary surgery through without anybody noticing. And she was, you know, booked into the hospital under a false name. And she's a the the whole surgical, her surgical arc. Um, and as I said, there is a lot of it in the book. Is, um, is really not so much a story of operations, but a story of her incredible persuasiveness. She persuaded GPS and psychologists and surgeons, you know, through a 30 year period [00:35:00] to do stuff that they would never have considered doing had she not been so persuasive. So that, to me, is not so much a story of her being cut up, but a story of her being able to talk people into doing shit. It was amazing to me, just in, um, in, uh, Peter Peter Williams' case. Um, she had a double mastectomy in the 19 and around 1933. And, um, so she also had, uh, persuaded someone to [00:35:30] perform that surgery. And, um uh, and I I saw a reference, uh, in paper in 1936 saying that those operations had been performed. Such operations have been performed in in this country. So the question is like, Who was doing these operations? Um, but when, um uh, in 1945 when she was first, um, exposed to the media, Um, the response of the public sort of supporting what you're saying there is that, [00:36:00] uh, not the public, but the the legal system. The judge was that, um, who has done this surgery. This was done for no medical reason. Who has, you know, been playing God who's done this? This They should be reported to the medical council and so on. So that's part of the reason they would have to keep undercover. Yeah. So for her to have, um, um, managed to get that, uh surgery was incredible, carving a really significant path, weren't they? For for the young people. Now for that For that young [00:36:30] man who spoke last night? You know, it's it's amazing that this was all happening then, so long ago. Now it was a bit different in your no operations. In my case. Sorry I did. I did get the street in this car, but I did get the feeling there was a bit of secrecy around, Uh, I mean, obviously a highly successful high profile crime writer, but a little bit of secrecy around her personal life. Well, I think, um, I, I think, in a way, what if I could just [00:37:00] frame this a little bit with, um being a biographer and and moving from dead subjects to live subjects because that was an interesting transition. I found, um because you you feel like you can write more about someone who's dead or you think you can, um, that's what you think you can do. Um, but in actual fact, there's always relations. There's always issues, um, around things. So you're always dealing with people who have a an investment in [00:37:30] that story. So you you you no, story has no investment. If if it's if it doesn't have an investment, it's probably a story not worth telling. So you've got all these interest groups and maybe there's there's not not necessarily any less interest groups for a dead person, if you know what I mean. Because Francis Hodgkins I mean, I got so much hell from writing that book at times from people who who had very fixed views on it. So I I almost got [00:38:00] more, more more hassle from that than than Anne Perry. Um, but but essentially, um I I went into, uh, Anne Perry thinking that that that, um, I might have to pull at least pull a few punches and not, um, you know, um perhaps not be so, um in interrogating. But in actual fact, when I when I came to the story when I talked to her, I think my old, um, [00:38:30] kind of modus operandi of you you care. But at the at the end of this, at the end of the day, you have to be absolutely true to yourself as well as a writer, because there is an integrity and a core integrity to doing that. That If you lose, then you lose everything. Because in a in a way, belief in a writer is something that people have to have. So they they have to. And if you lose that, then you've [00:39:00] lost everything. So So I cared. But essentially I had to make a true story. And the funny thing is, I wrote this proposal about a woman I had me yet and and I was going to be able to test my proposal against the real thing. So in July I met her in London and I realised that if I didn't like her, I couldn't write the book. And I and I don't mean like her. I don't mean God, I feel, you know, But if I couldn't respect her, if there was something that I found there in that room I [00:39:30] had the proposal I I had. I spent the money to go there II. I had everything, you know, I beat Oprah Winfrey to it, But, you know, I realise essentially that you cannot write a story that isn't true, isn't true to the subject and isn't most of all true to you, you care. But there's an intrinsic that that that is, is your your reputation? I guess that's about authorship, isn't it? It's ultimately you are what? As good as your word, You're only ever as good [00:40:00] as your word. So So in in a way, I had to. The big scary thing for me was was this woman gonna be as as interesting and as worthy as I hoped she would be? Because I knew I would have to leave that room and shut the project up and go and do something else. And I And that was the amazing thing when I met her. It was a very scary experience. She's incredibly well dressed, very sort of, you know, dapper in a way, you know, and and formidable and [00:40:30] scary and and I. I sat there and I gaped for the first time in my life, gaped like a goldfish. I had no words to say I. I had nothing to say. So I mean so So we had to kind of get over that and get around that. And I just took this drill. You know how you sit outside yourself and say, Did I really say that rubbish? You know, But did was that me and you know, she and she couldn't even work it out. I don't think you know. So eventually, we we ended up holding hands, which is a very strange thing to do in the first interview. But it was. [00:41:00] But but But what? I said, I said I was talking about my my you know, my like, my tribe, which I think is probably Vikings rape and pillage or no sex and travel. Um, so sorry. Sorry. So So, uh so I, um you know, So I said that, you know, I, I I'm a Viking, and she goes, How do you know that? And I said, Well, I've got this syndrome. That's very interesting syndrome. I'm getting medical now. Um, So anyway, it's two seconds. Uh, so I So it's in your part? Well, mine is in [00:41:30] the palm of my hand, but you can get at all kinds of places. We won't mention some of the other ones. Um, so she said Oh, do am I a Viking? She said, because she uh So I've held her hands, and I and II, I like I. I was very medical about this. Like I was, I gave her an absolutely good, I think. Complete result there. No I. I see. I can't see anything. I said I'll have to have a look at the other one. So I mean, [00:42:00] these are the things that you don't tell those. So that that kind of interaction those lovely moments and and that sort of quest that you start on that really at the core of it. Um, if you haven't got a worthwhile person that you can respect I, I really respect authors that can write about someone they hate. I mean, I. I know. Someone wrote a book about Radcliff Hall, and I think she, uh you probably know you. I'm sure you read it. III I ended up hating the writer more than I ended up hating Radcliff Hall because [00:42:30] I thought, if you if you can't see anything good in this woman, why did you write this book? But, you know, I guess it had to be written, but so essentially, I think, um, nothing much, um, ended up on the floor. That should have been in the book. That's what I would say. Um, Anne Perry never read it. She she didn't read it, so she she didn't audit it or, you know, they they you know, this is an authorised which, actually, I authorised this book. I wrote it, um, and [00:43:00] Anne Perry didn't read it. So, um, so her agent read it and she said, Oh, I think there's a bit about the BBC there That's a bit problematic. So we cut out a couple of paragraphs and the the the audit the, um, the auditor that the the the legal auditor, uh, withdrew soften some of the things I said along the way, not about Anne Perry, but about other people, because because they didn't want to be sued. And, uh, that they were not nasty. But, you know, um, so there was I mean, I didn't. That book [00:43:30] is what is is my true, um, assessment of here. Um and and you do make that sort of, uh, kind of big global decision about some things that can sit on the floor. And you always have the reasons why and you keep the idea. What's the main idea of the of your work? What's the main idea of the work? What's the main idea that you're trying to say here and does it matter if you leave that there, does it matter if you keep it? As I said that a few times [00:44:00] to Liz when she was insisting that certain bits go in bits that didn't fit, Um, saying you need to step back and look at the your whole life story and what which you know, and does that really matter when we're telling this is the story we're telling. I always have. I always have this, um, rule of thumb, right? This is my rule of thumb because you kind of got to do that when you Because when you live a very busy life, you've got to you've got to have some basic basic ground [00:44:30] rules And I always think, Can I sit in the room beside that person and feel OK about what I've written? And if it's someone who's historic If they were there today in today's mindset in this today's world, would they feel comfortable with the way they've been portrayed? And do you know it happened to me? It finally happened to me. Everybody who else was dead. Finally, I sat in a room with Anne Perry with the book between us in Vancouver at a literary festival [00:45:00] with 500 people out in the dark. And and the woman said to me, she was sitting on the far side and Perry is there and I'm standing sitting there and then this this vast audience and she said to me, So what do you did you learn about the from the murder and I and there's Dan Perry sitting next door to me, and I know once again I mean, I had to collect my thoughts rather quickly. But I felt comfortable. I actually felt comfortable. I still felt comfortable. I felt I'd done justice to the work, [00:45:30] to the work, to the book and to the story that one of the things I think myself and a lot of people have wondered about the fact that this, as a woman, as a 16 year old, performed this gruesome murder and then made a career out of writing crime stories. I mean, that is extraordinary. And so that is something that a lot of us have wondered about. OK, Ok, OK, right. 15. She was 15. The other one was 16. Yeah, but that's still here, isn't it? Um uh, Ok, um the thing is that she had written [00:46:00] countless books and they were They were sort of rubbishy because they they she's a great She's a great writer, but she has no sense of of shape. And the thing about the the murder mystery is it's one of those very successful kind of books, books, uh, genre books, that that has a shape and and so you Can you you know, I mean that. That's why I like writing biography because it's like there's a beginning and an end or usually there is, um, so most of mine had a beginning and an end like you're born and you die. Wow. [00:46:30] Um, so you know, that's your shape. And you got an arc in between and some people did a few things, and you write it down quite quite easy. But the other good shape is the detective fiction, because it gives you that perfect formula to to kind of the arc, the, you know, the exposition, the development that they knew more. Everything's wound up for people. People are happy, you know, and they go away and they go and buy the next one. Uh, so it essentially, she wrote all this. These rubbish books with no end in all kind of descriptive and interesting characters. But nothing ever [00:47:00] happened. And a lot of them were, you know, like, said that I think the Inquisition was one of the catchy, um uh, subjects. And then she had historical ones that were really hideous. And so finally, um, you know, her her, um her stepfather actually said, Why don't you write a murder mystery and instantly was published? She was 39. She'd been writing for 10 years, so I mean, she she The thing is, they do say, write, write about what? You know, [00:47:30] But But I think I actually do think that's true in her case because because she she actually knows what it's like to do something terrible and to spend a lifetime regretting it. She must be almost unique. Oh, I think she is. III. I think pretty much I think there may have been someone you know, But there there may have been a few that we haven't found the bodies yet, but I mean, a few authors have disposed of people. We haven't found any mine yet, but, um, so I think, [00:48:00] uh, yes, I think she's very unusual I and and I think I think it was a desperate thing. But but you But she does sit there in a very intense way, and she she sits there and reels out this complex plot. And you think, How can you keep that in your head? And why would you bother? But then she writes it up, and it's fantastic and really her her and she has this core value of Christianity which goes through her books. And it's been the redemptive thing [00:48:30] for her and Pauline that they, um, that they have been able to find some way of structuring their belief or their spirituality or their their existence in the world, and understand the the inexplicable. Really? Because how do you ever I she can't even now really tell you why or how, or or even to some extent, how it happened? Because, um, because, uh, she spent 60 years forgetting it, and at the [00:49:00] core of her being, I think she can never forget it and never entirely put that out of her consciousness. I I for a long time. Every time we talked, after the book came out, she would start talking about you know it would come up, You know, the the murder, it would always come up. And so I said to my partner, Oh, do you think I should just say, Look, the book's gone. We can be friends now. You don't have to talk about, you know, you don't need to mention those things. And in in a way, I think in the end I didn't I didn't [00:49:30] do because I because I mean, she meant so much more to me than just that. Now you know, and and but But in a way, I think it's I was just the only person that she could talk to. I was safe, and I was the one person that I read that that from New Zealand, that that knew the New Zealand of it knew the New Zealand story because she said to me, I'm a New Zealander because she said my formative years, all my formative years were in New Zealand and it was a weird thing because when I when I met her, that was once [00:50:00] I relaxed and she relaxed and we got over the Viking thing. Um, she was she was a um you're probably a Viking um I don't know what that means. Sex and travel. Um, but, you know, once we got over there, um, I think, Yeah, it was, I guess. Yeah, we we just became friends and associates, and and, um and she did tell [00:50:30] me about it. But as much as she she knew, and we could finally Yes. Yes, we're, um Yeah, we We have a quite a complicated relationship. Liz has no electronic anything. So she has, you know, her post box and the telephone and the landline. And that is it. Which I find really difficult. Um, because I don't answer the phone. I don't. You know, I do all all my communication [00:51:00] apart from with my family and my partner and my workmates is electronic. Um, So she Yeah. Liz phones me. Uh, sometimes every day. Um, and sometimes I don't answer for three days, because I I've got another, you know, and I. I can't. I've helped Liz. It's complicated because Liz is a pensioner and she lives in a in a, um, housing New Zealand house. And she has no money. Um, she has no car. [00:51:30] She has no email. Nothing. Um, and she has a What she has is a lot of dignity and a great sense of self and a wonderful sense of humour. But she has the kind of issues that poor people have. So when she lived in Auckland, um, if she needed to go, Briscoe's I would drive her to Briscoe's. Or I would take her to the doctor or, um, uh, one of her. Her other dear friends. Um, drive will drive her to the airport because she used to have to. It's so ridiculous. [00:52:00] Um, when she lived in Auckland, which is until reasonably recently, um, she would have to fly to Christchurch every three weeks to see her, uh, gynaecological specialist, you know, and she would have to pay for those flights out of her pension. Just insane. Um, so she she you know, she has needed me in that sense. Um, she now lives in Christchurch, and I don't see her, obviously, but I still we still speak, um, very regularly. And at the moment we're speaking about, um, [00:52:30] there's a A three companies competing to make the book into a television feature film. So the moment we're speaking about that, which is a whole another random because there's no money in it. And for Liz, that's it's not a problem for me, because I didn't do the book for money or anything like that. But for Liz, that's a really real problem. You know. She's gonna sell her the rights to her story, um, for other people to make money of it. She wants to make some dough, too. So it's a tricky one. [00:53:00] Questions. We've only got a few minutes left. Questions. Um, you're lucky enough to have the the, um, communications, you know, with with Liz. And you also with Anne Perry. Um, I was, uh I had only a snippet, but I did have something from Peter himself who was interviewed, um, and by the newspaper at the time. And so there's, uh, like a little body of, um, words from him. And I'd just like to say that, um, the title [00:53:30] of my book, um, is from Peter. And, uh, when he was questioned about his life and what he was doing and how come he married this woman? Um, he said, uh, he said a number of things, but he also said, um, I am perfectly natural. So for me, that was the I was thinking. What's the title? Of course. His words. So there was a question here. I just wanted to ask, um, anything in the process of your book [00:54:00] sales. Yes, Yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah. Um, but we Yeah, we have so many copies. So there's not It hasn't got into reprint or anything. So we divided the, uh, the the advance 50 50. Yeah. Um, so it's not really about. And that was at her insistence. I probably would have given it all to her because she needs it. Um, but she she was a very proud person and a very, you know, dignified person. So she insisted we [00:54:30] split it down the middle. Mm. Yes. The general question on writing about transgender. I speak to a few transgender people, and they seem to feel that there's a focus on this side of of a person story. Um, just wondering what what anybody thought about that doesn't get in the way of their other other side of this story. Um, can I answer that first, um, I the focus. The kind [00:55:00] of hook for for Liza's story is naturally the fact that because she was the first, um, that that forms a, uh, an important part of the story. But what I would like everybody who's considering buying the book to know is that that's by no means all of the story. Um, she had the most, and I didn't know this before I sat down to interview her. She had the most extraordinary life. She was a, um, a makeup artist to Twiggy and, um and you know, Catherine Deneuve in. She worked for David [00:55:30] Bailey as a makeup artist in the swing in London and the swinging sixties. She had a collection of clothing and Harrods. Um, you know, she she was responsible for the transition from for makeup from for black and white to colour TV in New Zealand, you know, she's had the most extraordinary life. Um, and it makes great reading quite apart from the surgical, but, um, the the surgery was important, but and I, I had this idea really early on as to [00:56:00] to how I wanted to write that chapter. It's completely different from the rest of the book. Um, and luckily for me, Liz has kept all of her medical records and all of the the you know, What do you call that? Carbon paper. Copies of the original type written letters between her doctors. So this the the chapter about her surgery is written completely differently. It is the letters between the GP to the psychologist to the surgeon back to the GP. Um, you know, and it says, [00:56:30] you know, um, thank you for referring, um, this woman to this person to see me. I am astounded at how feminine she or he appears, you know, And it's It's the language of the 19 sixties, and it's extraordinary to read it as it was written by the people. Um, I'm particularly proud of that chapter. I hope it works in the book. I know nobody has spoken to me directly about it, but, um, I didn't want the surgery to be the whole to be all it is. [00:57:00] But I think in a historical, I understand modern concerns like that. But I think this is a history, you know, the the book I wrote is about New Zealand's history of this kind of of surgery and and therefore I couldn't possibly ignore it. It's kind of the point to the book, so that's just you know the context, the context. Otherwise you don't understand very much of its time. I mean, Liz's books. [00:57:30] There are no modern sensibilities about, um, transgender in her book the confusion of the legal system and the fact that you know the chapter that tells the of her journey to the High Court to fight the the Ministry of Justice. Um, tells you a lot about the prejudices of the time. Yeah, So it it it it's time to finish. I want to thank these three wonderful women and the wonderful story. [00:58:00] I'm taking them straight to the signing table. So if you want to talk to them, come and talk to them there, OK?

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TITLE: The Book That Turned the Light On Part 2 - Same Same But Different writers festival
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VOICES: Cole Meyers; Jeremy Hansen; Michael Stevens; Victor Rodger; Whaitiri Mikaere
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 2010s; A Boy's Own Story (book); A Little Life (book); A pictorial history of the talkies (book); Alan Bates; Alan Hollinghurst; Angela D'Audney; Anorexia Nervosa; Another Country (book); Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland University of Technology; Batman; Betty Grable; Black Faggot (play); Bloodline (book); Brett Sheppard; Buckwheat; Burt Reynolds; Christchurch; Cole Meyers; Colm Toibin; Cosmopolitan (magazine); Dale Peck; Dangerous Desires (1991); Daniel Blum; David Halls; Derek Jarman; Derek Jarman's Garden (book); Desperate Remedies (1993); Edmund White; Edward Cowley; Elizabeth Taylor (actress); France; Fucking Martin (book); Garnet Station (Auckland); Gemini (star sign); Greenwich Village (New York); Greta Garbo; HIV / AIDS; Hanya Yanagihara; Hawkes Bay; Helen Reddy; Heroes Out West (Auckland); Holding the Man (book); Hollywood Wives (book); Home (magazine); Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); How To Be A Complete Bitch (book); Hudson and Halls (television); I Am Woman (song); Jackie Collins; James Baldwin; Janis Ian; Jeremy Hansen; John Fox; John Inman; Joseph Olshan; Kereru; Kevin Smith; King's College (Auckland); LIFE (magazine); Linwood High School (Christchurch); Marlene Dietrich; Matariki Poetry Slam; Michael Stevens; Michelangelo Signorile; My Name is Gary Cooper (play); Māori; Napier; Napier Boys Highschool; Ngāti Maru; Ngāti Pukenga; Nights in the Gardens of Spain (book); Nightswimmer (book); Oliver Reed; Out (magazine); Out! Centre Bookshop; Overdrawn (poem); Pamela Stephenson; Paris; Patricia Nell Warren; Paul Diamond; Peanuts (comic); Peter Hudson; Poetry Idol Slam; PoetryLive at the Thirsty Dog (Auckland); Queer in America (book); Quentin Crisp; Rainbow Tick; Richard Burton; Robert Burns Fellowship (University of Otago); Rona Barrett; Rona Barrett's Hollywood (magazine); Rupert Everett; Samesame But Different (2016); Samoa; Sidney Sheldon; Sons (play); Staircase nightclub; Superman; The Blackwater Lightship (book); The Block (tv); The Boys on the Rock (book); The Day After (film); The Famous Five (book); The Front Runner (book); The Hardy Boys Nancy Drew Mysteries (tv); The Line of Beauty (book); The Naked Civil Servant (film); Tim Conigrave; Tom Selleck; Unity Books (Auckland); University of Otago; Victor Rodger; Whaitiri Mikaere; Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? (film); Whole Earth Catalog; Witi Ihimaera; Women in Love (film); academia; academics; acting; activism; addiction; anxiety; arts; beats; bleakness; boarding school; bogs; books; born again (Christianity); butch; children; chocolate speedway driver; cis female; corn holing; death; demolition work; depression; directing; disability; dyke; eating disorders; fag; faggot; family; fantasy; feminism; flash fiction; gay; gender; gender reassignment surgery; gratitude; hippy; homosexual; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; indigenous peoples; internet; invisibility; journal; journalism; joyfulness; kissing; library; love; macho; marriage equality; masculinity; mental health; mixed-race; music; objectification; optimism; palangi; photo journalism; poetry; psychology; public library; public toilet; queer; reading; reflection; relationships; religion; revolution; safe sex; school; school uniform; sci-fi; sex; shame; short story; socialism; spoken word poetry; suicide; surgery; takatāpui; teaching; television; terd tapper; testosterone (T); trans; transgender; vulnerability; whānau; women; writing
DATE: 12 February 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Auckland University of Technology, 55 Wellesley Street East, Auckland
CONTEXT: Audio from the session: The Book That Turned the Light On.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Next up, We've got Victor Rogers. Victor Rogers is feisty, He's funny and he's fiery. Victor is one of New Zealand's leading playwrights, and his acclaimed plays include Black Faggot Sons and My Name is Gary Cooper of some background. He is currently mining dual Scottish roots as Robert Burns fellow at Otago University. Please, ladies and gentlemen, make some noise to Victor. [00:00:30] Glad I didn't have a fashion emergency just there. And this is the first time I've worn these pants this year. It's pretty touch and go. I have to say, um, you know, like, Paula, I'm gonna take a kind of secure, uh, approach to this. This question. Um and, um, you know, the past is another country, as they say, and this this question totally took me back into the past. It took me back to, uh, my life in Christchurch, [00:01:00] where I grew up with my, uh, with my mother. Um, it took me to prima two. Where, um, because the lights like Paula didn't really I don't think it turned on by one particular book. I think the light was turned on reasonably quickly. This this question made me remember, And two, watching a guy in my class be mean to girls. And he obviously didn't like girls. And I remember clear Isabell having the thought he's gonna have girlfriends when he's older and I'm not. [00:01:30] So the light was on, I think even then, but, um, the light was definitely on when, um, I was a slavish devotee as a child of Rona Barracks gossip, um, a Hollywood movie magazine. And I come from a born again Christian upbringing, and I read a story about Janice, Ian and one of Rona Barrett gossips magazines where Janice Ian said she realised she was gay when she was 11. [00:02:00] And as an eight year old, I felt really guilty that I already knew that I was gay and I carried that guilt for quite some time. Yeah, just just listening to Paula, then II I because I'm a Gemini, I can flip flop very easily and I. I had one book in mind to talk about which I will. But one book which came to my mind just now, was it's probably the most influential book in a funny way of my life, as as a book called um A a pictorial history of the talkies, um, that my mother gave [00:02:30] to me as a I think about a seven or eight year old because I had an interest in films very early on. And within this book, which had, um, pictures from, say, the the the very first talkies right through to about the mid seventies. Early mid seventies, we had Oliver Reed and Alan Bates wrestling in the nude and women in love. We had, uh, Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton going at it. And who's afraid of Virginia Woolf? We had [00:03:00] big glamorous, um, full page portraits of Dietrich Gabo. Betty? Yeah, I guess the light was on. I love them all. I loved them all. Um, one big book for me, which is getting to the book. That sort of, I guess, did turn the light on was a book, um, that my mother bought me when we were in Samoa. Just on the eve of my 12th birthday. We went for a two week holiday so that I could explore [00:03:30] my Samoan roots, which I'd never grown up with. And we got our bags on the seventh day. Um, so, by the time, uh, Mum bought me a book uh, that I chose. And that book happened to be bloodline by Sidney Sheldon. Um, and as an 11, almost 12 year old, that was pretty exciting. Um, I remember going back into my form two class and one of you know, I'd read all the sex scenes, obviously, And And the the one really knowing kid in our class going You know what come means [00:04:00] right, don't you? And I was like, Yeah, yeah, sure, no idea. But, um, bloodline turned me overnight from a hardy boys fan into a Jackie Collins. Sidney Sheldon, Judith Krantz devote. And, uh, you know, I was a slavish follower of all those authors for quite some time. And I just remembered, uh, just before I did a project in form five on Hollywood Wives. If any of you are familiar with that amazing [00:04:30] literary home, uh, which got an a plus. Thank you very much, Mrs Musco. Um, again, The past is another country. This is something I haven't thought about for a long time. This took me back this question. The the book that turned the light on took me back to being a very nervous, um, very, uh, school boy. in my school uniform going into a tawdry little second hand bookshop to buy an out magazine. [00:05:00] And, um, you know, I still remember the fear of of buying that. I can't believe I did it in my school uniform, but I did. And, um, that would have been about the fifth form. And that's when I started to look in the the school library or not the school library, the public library in Christchurch for different literature, gay literature. And, um, you know, around that time, I wanted nothing more than to be in a relationship with Tom. Uh, and that was that was very real for me. Thank you. [00:05:30] One of the books that, um I got out of the library and I think I had read about it. In Out magazine was a book called Boys on the Rock, which I don't think is that well known now. But at the time, I think I was pretty, um, pretty full on. It was a It was a book about a young swimmer getting getting his groove on as a young gay man. Um, it's a book that my mother discovered beside my bedside table and happened to read the scene that was at the, you know, the most [00:06:00] bench back bit of the of the book. Um, and I do remember telling my mother, you know, I just like the writing and my mother going along with that. Thank goodness. Another book that I discovered but which I haven't ever read completely. Um, and a lot of you, I'm sure, will have, um, will know it, uh, a boy's own story by Edmund White, which is the first time I came across the term corn holding. Thank you, Edmund. Very instructive. But, [00:06:30] um, the book that maybe didn't turn the light on but really has stayed with me from that that time in the in the past is a book that I found, um, when I was about I guess in my last year of high school, So about 16. 17. And that book is, um, another country by James Baldwin. So this was reading about another country for me, you know, literally and figuratively. This book really opened up a world. I knew nothing about Greenwich Village in the fifties. [00:07:00] Um, and it opened up a, uh, a black point of view, a non-white point of view which, for me as a mixed race person was a revelation. Um, and, um, you know, I was very thrilled. Um, years later, uh, when I was in Paris and I met someone who had hung out with, um, ja, James Baldwin and Eve Mon and and, um, he'd been at a dinner party where allegedly James Baldwin had been fondling [00:07:30] Joe Frasier's balls under the the table. One of my favourite anecdotes from my time was in Paris, one of the things that really struck me about this book. Another country which is called on the on the cover, the classic novel of love and hate between black and white man and woman man and man was the man and man bit. And the thing was just about every character, every male character in the book. But I think one white advertising agent, [00:08:00] um, had a gay experience with another character. And this this for me, was it was it was thrilling, but also yeah, um, what's the word? It just it just, uh it blew my mind. Of what? What? What was possible and what What could be out there beyond Lynwood High School, and, um, there were, uh, two characters that really stuck with me because I haven't read [00:08:30] this again in in complete in its entirety since I read it in the seventh form. But the the the the cat, the character who gets the ball rolling is Rufus a, uh, a black jazz musician who kills himself. And it's his suicide that, um, is the catalyst for the action in the book. And, you know, he is, um he at some stage, uh, sleeps with a character who ends up sleeping with another character, Valdo who is a, um a, uh, struggling novelist. [00:09:00] And, um, yeah, this is I'm just gonna read a very brief little excerpt from this because reading it reading it now, I know I wouldn't have understood all of it, but, um, yeah, I like reading this book. Uh, what was it like to be a man condemned to men? He could not imagine it, and he felt a quick revulsion quickly banished for it threatened his ease. But at the very same moment, [00:09:30] his excitement increased. He felt that he could do with Eric whatever he liked. Now Valdo, who was accustomed to himself to labour to be the giver of the gift and enter into his satisfaction by means of the satisfaction of a woman surrendered to the luxury, the flaming tapa of passivity and whispered in Eric's ear a muffled, urgent plea. Thank you, James BN. [00:10:00] Next up, we've got Cole Myers. Cole is a writer, an actor, a director, an artist and activist whose work is focused on creating spaces for trans people, queer people and people with disabilities and in mental health. Ladies and gentlemen, Cole Myers. [00:10:30] Oh, yeah, I. I really love how everyone's kind of had their own take on things. Um, no one really did Exactly what we were supposed to do, which I think is is wonderful. Um, I'm again going to flip it very much on its head as well. Um, for me, there wasn't really a book that turned the light on at all. Um, there were a lot of sci-fi, a lot of fantasy books that kind [00:11:00] of I think looking back on it now really offered a kind of a kind of transcendence of form of mind of reality, really, which I was so desperately seeking. Um and so I think as as writers are very good at doing. I'm gonna sort of twist the metaphor slightly and say that it wasn't so much a case of a book that turned the light on, but, um, a book that kept the light on because [00:11:30] for me, I find it impossible to talk about the uncovering of my identity without talking about the pain that covered it up. Um, for me, that was a a deep depression anxiety, uh, eating disorders, addiction, suicidality, um, and really, they were all just a terror of what I already was that had been twisted into this thing against myself. Um, [00:12:00] and I realised last year during a particularly bad patch that actually my suicidality was old enough to vote, which I thought was kind of amusing and tragic at the same time. Um, and I look back on it now, and I feel this very intense warmth for myself back then and everything that I went through and that I struggled with, um, when I was really sick, I couldn't read. I couldn't read at all. Um, there was no room for anything else other [00:12:30] than this excruciating intensity of of suffering. Um, so to get back to the point, the book that turned the light on for me was really the book that kept the light on. And that was my own journaling. Um, there I could express what I couldn't work out how to say, um, I could commune with my past Selves and whether they were in a better place or a worse place than I was. Um, I felt a kind of kinship with them and [00:13:00] was able to develop a sort of kindness towards myself. Um, the detachment really, of my own words from my current pain allowed a space for that warmth to grow. And the words felt connected enough to be meaningful but detached enough that I would actually listen to what they had to say. Um, because we were always better at listening to other people's advice than taking our own. Um, I feel like writing about our own lives. We can [00:13:30] find the balance that we didn't have when we were living them. Um, and for me, it also involved a sort of distilling of things and finding the clarity underneath the rest of the noise that was in my mind and in my life, um, writing about our own lives as well I find draws our attention to how much we create our own life story lines. Basically, how much we write the narratives. Or we read the cultural narratives that often reduce [00:14:00] us down to single layers of people or single notes. And then we're just expected to continue to play the same notes over and over and over until we die instead of, um, this symphonic rush of of reality and of being, Um and that's what I was searching for in other books and other stories. It was that raw, real, vulnerable connectedness, Um, that at least if I had to keep going, [00:14:30] um, there were other people that were walking it with me. And when I began to share my own writing, I think it was because I had never written it for anyone other than myself that it actually spoke to so many other people because it did have that real raw truth to it. Um, and there's a beautiful quote that I that I read recently that totally spoke to me and I. I feel like it probably will speak to other people as well. Um, it's by Juno, Diaz says. You guys know about vampires. [00:15:00] You know, vampires have no reflection in the mirror. There's this idea that monsters don't have reflections in the mirror. And what I've always thought isn't that monsters don't have reflections in the mirror. It's that if you want to make a human being into a monster, deny them at a cultural level, any reflection of themselves and growing up, I felt like a monster. In some ways, I didn't see myself reflected at all. I was like, Hey, is something wrong with me that the whole society seems to think that people [00:15:30] like me don't exist? And part of what inspired me was this deep desire that before I died, I would make a couple of mirrors that I would make some mirrors so that kids like me might see themselves reflected back and not feel so monstrous for it. So for me, I feel like reading and writing are like inhaling others and exhaling our own. And I think our time [00:16:00] has come particularly for trans people to not hold our breath anymore, um, to write, to turn the lights on, but also to keep the lights on. Um, because I think it's it's really important to see ourselves. [00:16:30] I'm now gonna do a poem. Hopefully it also involves those points as well. Yeah, I hate how much time it took me to become myself. I hate that. I wasn't sure if I should say time or pain [00:17:00] because they both still feel like the same thing. I hate that. Every time I was hurt, I learned to feel like I deserved it. That someone else always had a stronger claim over my body. I hate that eight years of anorexia still press against my skin when I see feminine beauty and yet now masculine ideal scream [00:17:30] along my sinews too. I hate that. Even as I wait for surgeons to cut away my breasts, beauty imagery whispers to me, Why aren't yours as perky as hers? I hate that after a medically necessary total abdominal hysterectomy with bilateral cell pingo ectomy that my first wave of relief was not that I had made it through the operation, but that I could now no longer be made to carry a pregnancy against [00:18:00] my will. I hate the medical terminology rolls off my tongue easier than enthusiastic consent If it did, and that some people might only understand this when it's coming from a man. I hate that all the ways I taught myself to speak up and stand ground against the roar of male privilege and now the same things that someone else might have to shout over to be heard. I hate that when I walk alone at night, I still cross the street when I see [00:18:30] a man coming towards me only now to the lone woman on the other side, I'm the one she threw two khakis through her fingers, for I hate that Men I've just met make room for me in their casual misogyny, where objectification is a bonding exercise, that I still don't feel comfortable exploring my own attraction to women because I don't ever want to be the man that makes her feel like I felt. I hate that Calling myself a man [00:19:00] feels like I'm amputating 27 years, and I hate that. It took me so long to realise that men and women aren't either, or that when someone asks my gender, I still find it hard to breathe and that I now feel obliged to reply man, when the closest answer is silent. [00:19:30] I hate that it was testosterone in my veins that taught me I deserve to take up space. I hate that. The day people stopped yelling Dyke and started yelling, Fag instead felt validating. I hate that. Don't be a pussy really means don't have one and that my pleasure is still less important than appearance. That self acceptance is such a radical belief and that not killing myself will [00:20:00] always be my most revolutionary act. And I and I hate how ashamed I still feel to say that or Penny [00:20:30] ask me to come next day. We've got Jeremy Hanson. Jeremy edits the House style Bible home and has been a judge, often with painfully raised eyebrows and a strange smile on the various teams at decor on the block. Ladies and gentlemen, Jeremy Hanson, [00:21:00] I should have sent you a bio I'd almost forgotten about. The block erased it from my memory. It's been really interesting doing this exercise and trawling back through the book shelves to find the book that turned on the light. Um, so I'd like to start by taking a little bit back in time. I grew up in rural Hawkes Bay in a place called Where My father was one of two teachers at the little local primary school My mother helped out at school, [00:21:30] she baked fantastic bread, and she played Helen Reddy's I Am Woman loudly and often because the school was so small. My father was my teacher from when I was five until I went to high school. But this didn't seem strange because it was a small community in which everybody knew each other. Excuse me. Dad had a huge vegetable garden and lots of back copies of the whole Earth catalogue. My parents were both aspiring hippies who still seemed to feel really comfortable in quite a conservative rural area. [00:22:00] They were also enthusiastic readers, and our dining room was dominated by bright blue shelves that were bending under the weight of all the books that were stacked on them. I spent a lot of time immersed in the big book of news photographs from Life magazine and even more time reading about the travails of Charlie Brown and Mum and Dad's Peanuts compendium. We also made weekly trips to the Hastings Library, but apart from a period of being obsessed with the famous five, Nancy Drew and the Hardy Boys I can't remember a lot of books from my [00:22:30] youth as clearly as I remember the thrill of a new Superman or Batman comic because they were great. We didn't have TV, but our parents were fairly relaxed about what me and my brothers read. The main thing they said was that we were reading it all, so that was all pretty idyllic. And then things changed because we live far away from the city. So I went to boarding school to nay Boys High School, where sport ruled and any deviations from the narrowly defined norm weren't really tolerated. In some ways, I was lucky because I was good at cricket [00:23:00] and I managed to achieve a degree of acceptance because of this. But I feel intensely jealous when I read books like Rupert Everett's fantastic autobiographies and hear about all the guys he shagged at boarding school, and I didn't have sex at all at this stage of my life. I had no idea what gay was, and there never seemed to be an opportunity to have sex with anybody. Gayness was only referred to in a derogatory way to tapper Chocolate speedway driver. Lovely terms like that and [00:23:30] I was so naive. I didn't really know what other guys were talking about when they called each other that, and it was too risky to ask, let alone be caught in the act with a schoolmate, which would have been a fate worse than death. I was talking last night with a friend about who's the same age as me about, um, growing up in the eighties, and we both concluded that we sort of felt like we lived in an apocalyptic era and fourth form we all went to see the day after, um and then we had to write about it in English class afterwards. And for those of you who didn't see it, [00:24:00] it's a film about the nuclear Holocaust where, you know, the the Earth gets kind of wiped out in this skirmish between Russia and the US. And there's very little life left afterwards and related to this. Just as we were kind of contemplating the alluring mysteries of sex AIDS happened. So we were bombarded with images of men dying in terrible ways, and we knew that sex could kill. In some ways, this made us kind of lucky because we grew up knowing how to protect ourselves if we were ever [00:24:30] lucky enough to get some action. But that lucky day was years away from me. I'd grown up without ever meeting an openly gay man. Homosexuality was almost completely invisible, and my parents were liberal, but they'd never talked to us about that. One of the first times I remember having to actively confront the possibility of being gay was one day when I was 14 and I was walking down Napier's Main Street with a group of friends from school. We were all in uniform and somebody stopped us to ask us to sign a petition [00:25:00] against the homosexual law reform bill. I'm really embarrassed to say that I signed it. This was partly because of pure ignorance and partly because all the guys I was with were signing it as well. Peer pressure as a really powerful thing. And I'm sure I can remember feeling quite queasy. As I wrote my name on this petition, I knew it would kind of come back to haunt me. I think to not sign it, though, would have risked meant that I was risk being called a faggot that I would have had to explain myself somehow. And at that time that risk seemed a bit too much to bear. [00:25:30] I was thinking when Joe was talking about winning the, um, geography prize at school because I was going through my school years and thinking about them in quite a negative way. But then I remember these kind of lovely flashes of rebellion when Jo was talking about that. I remember that in seventh form I won the English Prize at school and we got given this book token that we would go and purchase a book with, and then the headmaster would present it to us, and I book. Maybe this is the book that turned the light on, Um, Pamela Stevenson's How to Be a complete bitch as my life. [00:26:00] Yeah. Um, but denial is a really powerful thing, and mine persisted for quite a long time despite the Pamela Stevenson purchase. Um, I went to Otago University, which felt like an incredible release after being locked up in a boarding school for five years, but I still didn't really feel free enough to be gay. In 1993 I moved to Auckland to study journalism, and it's so weird to think about this now because that's only 23 years ago. And it feels like about 100. You know, there was no Internet. There were no no cellphones. Um, [00:26:30] no YouTube. If you wanted to contact a friend, you kind of called an empty room across town and hope that somebody was in it. Um, I was completely in the closet, and I didn't feel like there was a way to ask questions about anything that really mattered. I'd never had sex with a man. I had no idea about how to be gay. Um, and the closest I've gotten to gay porn was sneaking glimpses at the Burt Reynolds centrefold. My grandma's really tattered old copy of Cosmopolitan. And I just attended a couple of festival films in which a couple of guys passed, but that was pretty much it. I kind of instinctively [00:27:00] knew that I liked men, but I didn't know how to be gay. So there was this enormous chasm between the place where I was stuck and the place I wanted to get to, and it was kind of a bit like taking a leap into a void and the point I wanted to make is that it was books that helped me get there. I was too scared to go to a staircase nightclub, for example, when I found out it existed. But I could stand in unity books and feel literary rather than desperate. I could buy books with gay characters without feeling like I was completely outing myself, [00:27:30] and I could read about these characters and work out how to be gay myself. I found it too difficult to choose one particular book that turned the lights on. So I've chosen a few. And part of the reason I was so pleased to be able to ask to talk tonight is that, as Paul mentioned, um, dangerous desires. That Peter wrote was one of the first books I came across in one of my greatest discoveries in those years. It was full of individuals instead of stereotypes, and it made it seem like I could find my own way of being gay. I also wanted to mention desperate [00:28:00] remedies, which was also released in 1993 the film that Peter Co directed, which was joyously gay and mischievous, and that kind of filled me with optimism with the added bonus that Kevin Smith spent a lot of time in that film with his shirt off. And I wanted to make that point about optimism and joyousness, because at that point, so many of the books I read that featured gay characters were really heavy going. Um, if you've given a lot of these books to somebody who felt they had a choice about their sexual orientation, they would have definitely [00:28:30] been given being gay a swerve because it was like most of the writers that, um, you know, watched the nuclear Holocaust in the day after and had decided to write their personal versions of it. I loved the book Night Swimmer by Joseph, which was wildly romantic, except for the fact that it was told mostly in retrospect and the love interest at the centre of the story had been swept up to see while swimming at the beginning of the book. I really enjoyed the book Fucking Martin by Dale Peck, But the main character had been abused by his stepfather and was taking lots of drugs [00:29:00] and not in a very fun way. I couldn't find this particular volume of gay short stories at home when I was writing this. But I remember so clearly a story in one of them that really resonated with me about a ginger kid growing up in a sunburn Australian summer, which is a metaphor for not fitting in that stayed with me really vividly ever since. I I'm sorry. I can't remember the writer's name. I also wanted to mention with him Nights in the Garden of Spain, because that book was an incredible book at the time, and I think the more you think about it. In retrospect, [00:29:30] um, it becomes even braver and more sensational. But even at the end of that, the character ends up, um, kind of cast out from his family and by his own desires. And there's a a feeling of lament I felt at the end of that book, and I often think of Nick, which came much later. The wonderful, conflicted character at the centre of Alan Hollinghurst. It's great book in the line of beauty, he starts out, um, happy and carefree, and then he's completely crushed by the English class system. Um, I also wanted to mention Timothy [00:30:00] Conor Graves holding the man, which is such a beautiful love story that also ends in complete devastation. Um, and more recently, this is still going on. I read a little life and which, which is a wonderful book. The main character in that Jude is a person who, um is remarkable in many ways but also can't escape his own tortured upbringing of abuse and struggling with his own sexuality. But there are also really important books in my life that were stories of redemption amid the suffering I [00:30:30] remembered column Tobin's The Blackwater Lightship, which is really fascinating in the way it combines the kind of heartbreak of AIDS. And it has this kind of cathartic coming together of a family redemptive as the main character is dying. There were other books at the time, also published in 1993 that were really powerful calls to arms like Michelangelo's Queer in America, which was a really interesting argument for not staying in the closet and a really galvanising one for me at the time. But more controversial, he controversially he [00:31:00] was really in favour of aggressively outing people and in order to normalise homosexuality and take away the stigma of it remaining secret. I've over the years, I've read everything I can by Derek Jarman, whose fearlessness still never ceases to amaze me. And I like I wanted to bring him up here because I've been talking about bleakness. But I always come back to the book that he wrote about his own garden in Dungeness, which shows how beauty can come out of bleakness, and the bleakness itself can be beautiful as well. Now, [00:31:30] I don't know about you, but for me, books serve as real markers of a life. I don't really keep photos or other Mementos, but I can look through the books on my shelf and remember a lot about the time and place that I bought them and what I was doing at the time. So even though I don't reread books often, they stay with me. I am. I now live with my husband, Cameron, Um, who I married five years ago back in, and I was thinking about that when I wrote about this, because this is a life I could never have pictured for myself and most [00:32:00] of the characters in the books I read I don't think would have pictured that for themselves, either. It certainly wasn't in any of the fiction I read at that time that this was a possible outcome. Um, so I feel very lucky. But I also wanted to use this opportunity to say that I don't feel like I would have got here without those books and the characters in them. So I wanted to kind of express my gratitude for all of them tonight. Thank you. [00:32:30] Thank you, Jeremy. Next up, we've got Michael Stevens. Michael is currently the programme director for the Rainbow Tech and is an occasional blogger and social commentator. He's had a varied career ranging from demolition work in New York in the early eighties to teaching English in Istanbul for eight years. Being an HIV activist as well as working in academia, books, music and art have always played a great part in his life. Ladies and gentlemen, Michael Stevens. [00:33:00] Wow, Thank you. It's, um it's a privilege to be here tonight. Um, I'm probably gonna walk because I tend to walk as I talk. The the book that turned the light on there were so many, but I'll cast myself back, particularly to a time as a suicidal 16 year old 15 year old at King's College, boarding some of some themes coming back again. Um, in the seventies. So I was born in 61 [00:33:30] 1976 77. I knew I was gay grow, you know, going to a boarding school like King's, surrounded by naked teenage boys. Man, you knew you were gay if you were gay, and as far as I can make out, um, you know, I never had sex at school. What I found out afterwards was that, um all the straight boys were running off to the bushes and juking off together and finding out who had the biggest dick and all of us. Gay boys were too terrified to let on to anybody that we might actually be interested in each other. Um, what a wasted [00:34:00] opportunity. I was suicidal. I'm serious, I. I walked around in that my last year at Kings in 78 I walked around with a razor blade in my pocket. Um, I could not see a way to balance. I was already sexually active. I've been having sex since I was 15. Um, with being outside, doing the bogs, going to the public toilets, Um, I couldn't figure out how I could countenance being a loving son from a strong family, A family where I grew up surrounded by books. Um, every room in our house had books. [00:34:30] Um, how could I be this person that my family loved that I thought was a good person and be this terrible thing this this homosexual, which just seemed awful and again as other people have touched on, What did I see around me? I could see Hudson and halls. I could see John Inman, and I can remember very, very vividly, Um, watching a naked civil servant and thinking, Wow, that resonates with me as a 15 year old. It terrifies me. I don't think that's who I am, [00:35:00] but, God I, I understand. And I recognise who he is. There was, um, a time walking up high street, um, around, I think, where Unity Books is now and a sandwich board on the footpath, uh, of a you know. And I noticed it from time to time because we had our family warehouses down on Fort Street, so I'd often be in that part of town. And there would usually be like a half naked man in the forest with a knapsack over [00:35:30] his shoulder or sometimes a half naked man on a pile of rocks like it climbed a mountain. And it said out the alternative lifestyle. And I was for, you know, for quite a while I thought it was about tramping, and I thought, Well, these guys are hot that they get for these covers in these magazines. Maybe I should take up tramping. I don't know. I didn't I finally figured out up the stairs was a bookshop, and that's what it was. And it was a I. I tweaked and I went up there and terrified [00:36:00] Brett Shepherd, who some of you will remember in a shiny green. I don't know what kind of fabric suit, um, with his poly could have been, you know, Sweet 16, me coming through the door as so many other of my contemporaries did, and I and books. And here was the first time that we actually, you know, we might laugh about Brett. We might laugh about out. They brought in the books that other people didn't bring in. And for me, I found the front runner by Patricia Warren. And [00:36:30] some of us have, you know, and I did too. Um, in my older years, derived it as sort of gay Mills and Boon. But when I read it, it was amazingly powerful because it talked about love. And for me, the key thing that makes me a gay man is not who I have sex with. It's the fact that I love and want to be loved by other men. That is what makes me gay. It is my emotions, you know, my sexuality. Um, that's an expression of it, but it's actually [00:37:00] about love, and that's what it comes down to. And this book gives a really positive story about two men finding each other falling in love. And unless it then goes on to have the typical tragedy of one of them dying, Um, but it still is about love. And that is the book that for me it sent me a really powerful message to give me this thought that you don't just have [00:37:30] to have sex to be gay. You can love, and that is what being gay is about. And I remember trying desperately to get my father and mother to read it, and they were, like, horrified and didn't Of course, um, this is the same copy that I bought in 1978 or 77 in the art book shop. I have kept it all those years. I hadn't read it for I don't know how long. I I took it out last year. I thought, I'll give it another run. I'll [00:38:00] see what it's like. I'll see how it stood up and it stood up really Well, I think, um, it's pre AIDS. So it talks about a world of, um, homosexuality that is very, very different from, um, the post AIDS world. But, um, it talks about love. It talks about death. It talks about the possibility of, um, two men having families having Children because there are three generations, um, that come through this book. So in many [00:38:30] ways, it's really contemporary, you know, they just sort of accept the fact that you have a sperm donor. You have, um, you know, a surrogate mother and you have a baby, and that's just written in here as a really normal sort of thing. The one thing where I think Patricia Warren got wrong, um is that she talks about, um, men describing their penises as their roses, and I've never heard any of us use that terminology. I took his rose in my mouth. [00:39:00] No, it just doesn't work. But, you know, um and, uh, what I was, you know, thinking back about this too. She's actually an accomplished scholar in her own right. She's a leading. She taught herself, apparently Ukrainian. And she's a leading, um, authority on Ukrainian literature. Who would have guessed? Um, as I was going through it again the other day. There are so many bits in there that I thought I could read this. I could read that I could take out this excerpt. I didn't, um and I won't because it's so hard to pick from among them. But [00:39:30] this book again, perhaps it didn't turn the light on, but, um well, in some ways, it did, you know, because it just showed me I didn't have to be a John Inman caricature. I didn't have to be someone, as as I would say now, as noble and as extreme as, um, Quentin, Chris was you could be a man and fall in love with another man and have a life and be together, and that is what this book talked to me about [00:40:00] when the rest of the world 19 seventies New Zealand had no idea and had no way of messaging that to me or to anybody else. So I'm really grateful for this book and I'm never going to lose it. Thank you, Michael. Finally, by no means least we have under her [00:40:30] real name at Alias a K, a diesel dike poet is a writer of poetry, lesbian, flash fiction and short stories. She has won the title of Maki Poet for 2010 and 2012, And for 2015, she was the winner of poetry. Idol has been competing in poetry and spoken word competitions regionally and internationally. Since 2008, Diesel dike poet has performed at Heroes Out West Garnet [00:41:00] Station and poetry live at the Thirsty Dog. Some of her poems have been published in socialist and feminists magazines and she has amassed over 700 poems. She is currently a psychologist by profession, but she would love to write full time. Ladies and gentlemen, um can you hear me? Ok, [00:41:30] um um Peter uh and, um well, as introduced me um my name is, uh I hail from the, um, [00:42:00] peninsula originally. So that makes me and, um I live here, and I live and work here in Auckland. Um, what an amazing lineup of of, uh, speakers we've had tonight. Would you like to just give them a a round a clap Again? Thanks. Now, um, I will be, um, doing, um, some spoken word or one [00:42:30] piece of spoken word poetry. Um, but I you know, listening to these guys, um, and women, um, has kind of, um, agitated memories, I guess, um, about my own journey, uh, into who I am today. And and I make no bones about I'm I'm Butch. Um I'm sis a butch dike. And, [00:43:00] um, I remember four years old, being four years old and watching the television set in my grandfather's house, which was the only house in mania with a television, and it been very crowded in in the lounge room, and I think it was Angela Door. Do you remember Angela Dior? Um, presenter was presenting the news, and the first time I saw her, I thought she was gorgeous. I walked [00:43:30] up to the television set and laid my lips on the screen, and it was electrical. Ah, yeah. And, uh, the rest of the just wanted to watch the news. Um, two years later, uh, I remember my crush crush I had on my first child, the first woman in my [00:44:00] life, I suppose. And, um, you know, it was one of those things she met, like, happiness on a sunny day. And I don't know if you can kind of relate to that, I'm sure you all could. You can recall such incidences, I suppose. Um, and then my favourite, um, author was, um the book [00:44:30] that really, um, affected me deeply was and, um, I guess it kind of projected me into the to the Maori, uh, to the to the Maori movement, Um, as well. And, um, there are such a lot of, uh, lesbians and gays in in indigenous people's movements. And, um, I've had the pleasure [00:45:00] and privilege of, um of getting to know those people. Uh, and I'm sure that's going to continue until I die. This, um, poem is entitled. I was thinking whether I do woman or girlfriend, but I hear that dangerous desires is tomorrow night, and I've been, Um it's been suggested that I might leave that palm until dangerous desires for tomorrow night. Um, this poem, then is entitled [00:45:30] Overdrawn. It seems everywhere I go, I cross your path, But I never catch your eye. I guess that's kind of good, because it means I don't have to bear your glare yet. I bet I'm added to your conversations, just not in a good way. All I feel I'm good at with you are these probabilities. And if you can't be bothered to include [00:46:00] me in your null hypothesis, then let me speak to you in a language you understand. If your X can't see Y again and why can't find X on the gradient at all? Then, hypothetically speaking, I can rewrite this equation to read X plus Y equals XXY where X equals me. Y equals you and XXY equals the sum total of Venus squared minus. All men are from Mars, period. That's right, baby. A butch [00:46:30] rush and lick Third Rock from the sun here on Planet Dyke where IXX and right behind you in the queue for happiness Pay attention! You read from my letters that I'm right here with you. on the curve at double XYNZ, waiting patiently for you to take a break. See, recess isn't regress if you breathe less. It doesn't mean to say that whoever's floating your gender fluid boat right now take your breath away. Incidentally, problem solving may be my forte, but yeah, nah, this [00:47:00] isn't foreplay for the place of a play isn't in Playwright. I'm on the sidelines of this stage avoiding stage fright spotlights and stage lights say, Don't make your brain bright So let's avoid the theatrics and have a drama free play date Because I'm hoping you think my poetry games tight. OK, you're not just another woman, all right? You change me like my words whenever you're around, Do they jingle like a pocket full of $2 coins scattered across times tables? As I recall, the nights and days we never spent. You [00:47:30] saved me, and I'm hoping I can build up your interest just enough to call to account that river Bank of tears over there where I deposited those words and in the same breath I wallet, keys, phone packing. I I check myself for I'd love for us to cash in on what we have going on here. See, currently your currency is unlike anything I've experienced before. You move me, you puzzle me. I feel like I'm some kind of misfit piece to a heteronormative [00:48:00] jigsaw puzzle. I get tongue tied scrabbled. It's like crosswords getting to know you, but I'm hoping you can add it all up and decipher. See, love is kind of like a lesbian sudo. And just to let you know, I want to sum up to be that dike you can go to because I know the next time I see you you won't be reenacting play schemes that look like daydreams going on in my head. But will my courage give me the green light? Or will my cowardice reign red [00:48:30] Red Like the rose I proposed I would give you with some pros and some I told you so. You are beautiful red like you would blush the bees knees No mascara Your lush smile that grinds interest air for what is love But poetry's dust red like our faces in a twilight sunset eclipse Serenity to never ever make you wonder Honey, are we done yet? Read like this [00:49:00] poem and me in the red about to sign off on a major transaction, so please don't withdraw. Thank you. [00:49:30] Thank you. So, ladies and gentlemen, um, the panel I'd like to thank you for bringing back memories. I'd like to thank you for sharing your stories. And I'd like to thank you for touching everyone in this room and bringing all memories to life rather because I think it would be hard not to find anyone who hasn't been in this room tonight hearing your stories, sharing your words, hearing your thoughts, not being touched, and reignited some sort of flame within them. So thank you. Panel Ladies and gentlemen, if you would like to catch up with the panel outside, they've got books outside that are for sale. [00:50:00] So you can buy them, They can sign them. And you can answer any questions that you might have If you would like to come back tomorrow. There is a full day of programming tomorrow right here in this room. So if you can't make it But you would like to send a friend, then get on social media, tell them how wonderful night you've had it. The same same, but different. It's not here on Sunday it is at station. But if you'd like to come back tomorrow as part of the same same but different festival, then they'll be right here against as a four days programme. It's been wonderful having you here, Peter Wells. Thank you so much for allowing [00:50:30] this to happen and engaging this and making this happen. Um, for everyone that has worked on this project. Have we had a good evening this evening? We look forward to your social intercourse in the four hour you get the book. Let me see you. Good night.

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TITLE: Part 1 - The Book That Turned the Light On - Same Same But Different writers festival
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VOICES: Douglas Lloyd Jenkins; Joanne Drayton; Paul Diamond; Paula Boock; Peter Wells; Susannah Walker
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1960s; 1970s; 1990s; 2010s; A Fire in your Belly (book); Anne Perry; Aotearoa New Zealand; Are You Being Served? (tv); Armistead Maupin; At Home: A Century of New Zealand Design (book); Auckland; Auckland University of Technology; Berlin; Best Mates: Gay Writing in Aotearoa New Zealand (1997); Broadsheet (magazine); Bronwyn Dalley; Brownies; Buckwheat; COW (Conscientious Older Woman student); Carlo Collodi; Charles Mackay; Christchurch; Christian youth group; Cole Meyers; Dangerous Desires (1991); Dare Truth or Promise (book); David Halls; Death Comes for the Archbishop (book); Douglas Lloyd Jenkins; Edward Cowley; Enid Blyton; Friends (tv); Gareth Watkins; Germany; Girl Guides; Hermione Lee; Hudson and Halls (television); Inglewood; Inglewood High School; Joanne Drayton; John Inman; Jools Topp; Juliet Hulme; Lisa Alther; Listener (magazine); Longacre Press; Lynda Topp; Makereti: Taking Maori to the World (book); Metro (magazine); Ministry for Culture and Heritage; Mount Taranaki; My Antonia (book); Nancy Mitford; New Plymouth; Ngaio Marsh; Ngaio Marsh: Her Life in Crime (book); O Pioneers! (book); One of Ours (book); Oscar Wilde; Other Women (book); Out Walked Mel (book); Paula Boock; Peter Hudson; Peter Wells; Playboy (magazine); Prue Langbein; Radclyffe Hall; Roger Smith; Running Backwards Over Sand (book); Samesame But Different (2016); Sigmund Freud; Stephanie Dowrick; Susannah Walker; Tales of the City (books); The Adventures of Pinocchio (book); The Famous Five (book); The House Beautiful (lecture); The Professor's House (book); The Pursuit of Love (book); The Search for Anne Perry (book); The Well of Loneliness (book); The Woman in White (book); Topp Twins; University of Auckland; Walter D'Arcy Cresswell; Wellington; Whanganui; Wilkie Collins; Willa Cather; Willa Cather: A Life Saved Up (book); auto-suggestion; books; buzzcut; closeted; clothing; code; coming out; cricket; crime; design; difference; facebook. com; family; feminism; gay; gender; growing up; hippy; homophobia; homosexual; homosexual law reform; hypnosis; intensely private; internalised homophobia; kissing; language; lesbian; marionette; mystery novel; never married; overseas experience (OE); piercing; poetry; queer; reading; relationships; role model; rural; sex; sexuality; shame; social; sport; storytelling; study; suicide; television; transgender; women; writing
DATE: 12 February 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Auckland University of Technology, 55 Wellesley Street East, Auckland
CONTEXT: Audio from the session: The Book That Turned the Light On.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I was very touched early last week when Cole Mars, who's one of the speakers we're going to hear from tonight. One of the new voices, uh, sent me a message, and he said that success for events like this is not measured quote in awards or dollars, but in lives touched and made creatively richer and joyous. And I think that's a very important thing. And I think it's something that has motivated all of us in putting together this this festival. Our [00:00:30] hope really with this festival is that it will lead to more. Um, we hope to engage with a wider group of writers, ideally, with some coming from overseas. Already, we've had quite a significant interest from writers from out of New Zealand, and we'd look to engage with thorny contemporary issues that enliven and engage our LGBT Q I community. So, in a way, this festival, [00:01:00] um, which you're at the very beginning of, is a taste that we hope for things to come. Thank you so much for all being here on this opening night. Hey, Thank you. Peter. Our first speaker this evening is Joanne Drayton. Joan is witty. She is smart as smart as a dime. And she is a great talker. Joanne Drayton is an acclaimed biographer of two very different crime writers Noah Marsh [00:01:30] and Anne Perry. Please, ladies and gentlemen, make some noise. Well, I'm not quite sure whether, um, this qualifies me as a girly SWAT or a cheat, but I've actually got two books. Um, So, um, the the two books that I've I've got here, uh, and and this might prove that a little bit of the girly swat is true. Um uh, a woman in white. So I'm just I'm just gonna talk mostly [00:02:00] about women in white, but also, um, other women by Lisa. So women and white. Um, just to prove that there's something very special about the real thing. Um, I, I should show you this book because it's it's it says up here high school, and it was presented to dry. Can you believe it? For geography? I knew much more about where I was then than I do now. Um, [00:02:30] but I So I so, for fifth form geography, they really, um I. I think the school didn't know what they were doing when they gave me this book because In fact, it didn't teach me so much about, um, geography as about perhaps myself. Um, so it's it was wonderful to pull it out again to, um, look at it and to to to actually just realise that I read it twice when I was in the form once, uh, because I felt like I should, uh, after [00:03:00] getting it as a prize and the second time because I really wanted to relive the experience of reading it. And so well, it's It's a book. What? The woman in White is a book by Wookie Collins. Um, and I'll, I'll just make sure I'm not gonna talk too long. Um, and it's interestingly enough, it's It's I didn't realise this. I did. You know how the weird things all the bits of bits of your life kind of come together as you get older and you look look at it and you can start seeing the picture and you realise where where the pieces are missing. Um, but this with the woman in white was actually [00:03:30] considered, um, to be amongst the first, um, mystery novels. So even then, when I was the geography student at high school, I was interested in in in my novels. And this is, um, one of the first sort of sensation novels. So I got a real sensation, but probably not the one they are intending. Um, so it's it's, um it's, um it's it. It kind of has that slew thing thing. And it it's it's it has, uh, Walter Hart, right? Who's, um Who kind of, [00:04:00] um, has to unravel this mystery about the woman in white. And, um, to, um, free the heroine and to, um, marry her. But there it's a threesome, actually. And, um, what happens is, um, the woman white, um, has 322 women that that I think were really, really interesting to me. One was, um Marriam Halcomb. And the other, of course, was the main character, um, Laura and, uh, Laura [00:04:30] Marian Halcomb is a is A is a fascinating character because the the the relationship that that kind of really jumped out of it for me was this. They were half sisters. And it was the tenderness and the the commitment and the the the passion, which was with which, um, Marion tries to help, um, her actually less. Um, this amazing um, half sister to, um, uh, be [00:05:00] be, uh, restored. And, um and, uh, uh, kind of redeemed in a way. So, um, I want I don't want to give you a plot summary, but II I hadn't quite realised what it was that that really about Marion That that really made me kind of turn the light on for me. And when I was reading just just just as a sort of preparation, um, And I I knew I couldn't read the whole book. Um, I, uh, the first, the first thing I I kind of I double clicked on [00:05:30] was gender bender. Now, I didn't realise this at the time, but first off, Marion looks. Marion's looks are emphasised a lot. Um, perhaps overemphasised she's got, um, a a hot bod. So she's got a great figure. Um, according to Walter and Fosco, that's a couple of the characters. But you'd think she got the head of Medusa the way people act around her. So here's a quote. Never was the old convention conventional maxim that nature [00:06:00] cannot earn more. Flatly contradicted. Never was the fear promise of a lovely figure more strangely and startlingly belied by the face and head that crowned it. So this is Marion. Poor Marion. Um, the lady complexion was almost swarthy. The dark down on her upper lip was almost a moustache. She had a large firm, masculine mouth and jaw, and I hadn't even remembered that. But I knew I liked her already. Um, [00:06:30] so So she so Marion on being outright masculine, um, in her looks. And that's reflected in her behaviour, too. Marian even describes herself as unfeminine. She's intelligent. She likes chess and arguing. She probably likes to talk a lot. And she can do, um she can't do those, typically femine and female things like play the piano or draw. So she was She was appealing to me. She turned the [00:07:00] light on, but it was really this, um It was this relationship between her and her half sister. It wasn't actually the romance in this book that got me because the romance was typically heterosexual, but it But it was so typical of the way way that my generation, or at least, uh, people brought up in Christchurch and and very sort of middle class backgrounds had to go and mine for anything that kind of spoke to them about their identity or about their evolving. Um so it was a matter of reading between the lines or reading into the lines. Your [00:07:30] story placing your passion, your commitment to to, um, sort of same. Same really, in a way. And that's what I was exploring at the time. Now it did take me many more years to actually fully turn the light on. And I in fact, I was 33 before, um, II I and and married to an Anglican minister. I have to admit, uh, before I really, um, switched that neon light on properly and and fell out of the car closet. But, [00:08:00] um, but the thing is, that already, um, I. I was looking to find the traces of the stories that I could relate to the the stories that touched me and and in a way, um, I found I was surprised. I thought, Surely this is Wilke cons. Surely he must know he's writing a lesbian relationship here, and he must do that and and they The thing is they lived happily ever after. And maybe that's what I thought. My marriage. That's probably perhaps that's what I thought that was gonna happen, but obviously it didn't, Um, which [00:08:30] was a good thing. Um, I could say that, Um but but the thing is that in a way, um, I. I was looking for those readings. I was looking for those stories, and I don't think they were there in the same way in the 19 seventies as they are now. I'm sure that's that's the truth. Um, and it was and it was really, um, and I so So, in a way, I had to find my stories in stories that were basically written for someone else. They were other love stories. They were other detective [00:09:00] stories. There were other things. Um, and and, you know, there might have been a lot more people, um, reading the well of loneliness. But in Christchurch at high school, they did not give that as the prize for geography. So So And I know you'll be surprised about that, but but But when I and when I did read, um, something that was more, uh, you know, finally, I found found and maybe I had some. I am I was homophobic, you know? And I mean, I probably hated myself. [00:09:30] I'm sure, but I mean, when I bought these books, I actually had to sneak in And I I didn't want anyone to see me because I thought other women. Mm. You know, I mean, this was the 19 seventies where you didn't even touch someone. You know, even if they fell over you, you left them there on the side. You know, you just especially if they were the same sex. You just let them die. And it was fine. You just in case someone thought you might be a lesbian or or or or gay. So, um, but this is in Christchurch, I have to say, but so other women IIII I struggled to buy this book, Uh, because [00:10:00] it was, um because, you know, because II I already knew that I had some sort of, you know, because I had already read the one before, which I also struggled to buy. But I bought that more by accident. But this, um, this one, this is kind of typical of I think the books that you could read, um, that were about, um uh, same sex relationships and women, particularly women's same sex relationships, which I think have always been more pro problematic. And perhaps more deeply, uh uh, I, I don't know, kind of difficult for society, but [00:10:30] but, um I, I don't want to read the whole thing, but basically, um the woman that sort of thinks that she could be, um, lesbian or or or thinks that she has these difficult relationships with other women, and she goes into therapy and you'll be really pleased to know she was cured. Uh, pretty much by the end of it. So I think I think that that's the other kind that there are. And that's partly why? Because, um, I was always disappointed. They always came right in the end. You know, they were they were always more [00:11:00] or less cured. So So it was a It was kind of, you know, just give me a whack when I need to go. Um, Ok, ok, so, um, it's all right. Yeah. OK, so So I think so. It's time. One minute. Ok, Right. Ok, well, really, uh, I think I think that's I think that's the the the the two things. I think that that that I had to read and find those stories and other stories that were conventionally written or intended for another audience. And then when I did find those stories that that traced parts [00:11:30] and and aspects of, um, that passionate relationship between two women, um, it was it was always portrayed in a negative way. It was always framed as a pathology, as as as problematic or the ones that I I was reading. And so I think I think that left my life very much, um, more confused than then. Then it turned the light on because I think the books we were reading in some ways were not actually helping [00:12:00] direct us to to, uh, to new stories to possible future stories for ourselves. Um, but, um, you know it It finally did Dawn the light. Um, but And these and these are the stories that I look back on as formative, um, in that process. So, look, thank you very much. I hope, I hope. Yeah. Thank you. To stand is not compulsory. If you [00:12:30] have something wrong with your legs, I'm more than happy to come and sit on them. I'm sure you'll stand extremely quickly then. Thank you, Joe. Next up, we've got Paul Diamond. Paul is a writer. He's a journalist and a broadcaster and curator. Maori at the Turnbull Library. His books include a biography of Maggie Papakura, and he's looked at the Fascinatingly murky world of the mayor of who, in 19 in the 19 twenties was dumped from office for making a pass at the poet [00:13:00] Darcy Creswell. The ex mayor was later shot on the streets of Berlin. It's a movie waiting to happen, and we hope that Paul writes it. Ladies and gentlemen, make some noise for Paul. Well, um, it's wonderful that this is happening. And it was, um it was even more exciting to be asked to be part of it. And, um, well, and doesn't need to feel embarrassed about having two books. [00:13:30] I've actually got three, but but mainly talking about one. And I guess you need to I need to sort of preface the what? I'm gonna tell you about these books about a bit of context about the time that I'm talking about. And I guess it's the time when I was coming out. And so we're talking about the late eighties and the early nineties for which, for someone, um, born in 1968 is a bit of a late run. But, um, you know, for those of you who who can't remember that as clearly as I can, you know, it's it was a very different sort of landscape. Legally, it was very different. There was [00:14:00] there were no civil partnerships. There was no marriage. There was no legal protection. That was and it was before really just on the cusp of decriminalisation. And as a result, the social attitudes were really, um, different. And it wasn't as commonplace, I guess, bordering on banal. Actually, at times, as as things are now, and in the Hutt Valley where I was growing up, it was like it didn't exist. And the gap between these books I'm going to tell you about and what I'd grown up with was really, [00:14:30] really, really large. Because if you had role models at all, they were either, uh, ridiculous or tragic and violent. So you had, um, John Inman as Mr Humphries on. Are you being served because in in New Zealand, then? Well, there was initially one channel, two channels, then three, but everyone watched the same things. So there was that. And then there was Hudson and halls locally here. But it was like they were not completely real, especially in Stokes Valley in the in the Valley. Or there was my mother's cousin, who was [00:15:00] a theatre nurse and who would sort of murmur, You know, they'd have these murmured conversations about tragic relationships that ended in violence in the, um, in the A and E department on a Saturday night in the Hut hospital. So there was that sort of vague sense, but overall, the message was, Well, it was almost it was never really spoken, But it was. The idea was, if you if you go down that path, you're letting yourself into a sad, lonely, tragic life. So it was a revelation to find out about books that that showed other ways of being. And I guess I mean, [00:15:30] um, you always those things that, um, were around in the period when you do come out, I guess do have a very big influence on you. And so many, many people will be familiar with this dangerous desires, which, um as PE Diamond Wellington 1992 which was when I was flatting in Wellington, and it really was one of those cases of I think everyone else had figured that this man should come out before he did. Um but But so again, a bit of a It was a late run, but when I sort of got [00:16:00] to it, this had just come out. And I remember sitting in my bedroom at my flat in being too nervous to take him to the lounge, um, reading it and and it was a revelation. And and and just this idea that there were these other other sort of realities that it was not necessarily tragic. And sometimes they were even happy endings. And they were different lives to mine. I mean, they weren't set in the valley, but, um but but it was still inspiring different sorts of role models. And then, um, I have a friend in Wellington who's [00:16:30] the same age as me, but came out 10 years before me. So I like to think of him as my sort of fairy godmother because it was a case of I mean, he was responsible for my culture education in those early years, and we both grew up in that valley. But he was a lot more worldly than I was then So he said, Haven't you heard of a mo And haven't you heard of the tales of the city? And you know So it was all this catching up that I had to do so wolf those down And they are I know a woman who reads the Nancy Mitford trilogy The Pursuit of Love and and the other two books In that series She reads those Every now and again I read the tales of the city Every [00:17:00] now and again I just sort of when I when I need a boost Those are the books I go back to And that was about this whole different imagining of urban living and different sorts of people living together in a place like Barbary Lane. So that was exciting. But then the then, what was another project that Peter well had a lot to do with? Best mates, gay writing and a New Zealand. This wonderful anthology. Very brave book. Um, there's a whole story. A lot of people here will know about it that the use of the image on the cover and then [00:17:30] the bravery about a highlighting the work of those three Well, the non appearance of the work by those three writers whose literary executives wouldn't allow it to be included in that anthology then. But for me personally, one of the most significant things about this book, and if you haven't I know it won't be in print, I guess. But it's, um, a wonderful, wonderful book for for lots of reasons. But for me personally, it was when I came across this, um, story that was alluded to this little paragraph. If one looks back to the 19 twenties, one comes across what looks like a typical literary [00:18:00] and sexual conundrum. Darcy Creswell, who lived from 18 96 to 1960 was a Canterbury born poet who was as famous for the for the ornateness of his poetry as he was for going door to door during the Depression and hocking off his poems. Before this, however, in 1920 he had acted as a homosexual Asian provocateur. He lured the mayor of into homosexual indiscretion in the local art gallery. The mayor and desperation attempted to murder Creswell. This led to the remarkable osmosis by which the mayor of a small yet rather elegant riverside [00:18:30] city in New Zealand lost his name his fortune, his country. We next find him in a Communist journalist and the game maker of Berlin, where he was shot by the police. This dramatic trajectory hints at the extraordinary lives of some earlier homosexuals who were pushed beyond silence and discretion. So, um, I read that, and that was sort of fizzing away in my head. And then when Gareth, Roger and I were working at Radio New Zealand together, Prue Laine, who is a drama producer there, had just read about this and Michael King's history of New Zealand, She said, Have you heard about [00:19:00] that? That May and that story and I said, Oh, yeah, yeah, No, I I'd known about it for earlier because of this, and she said, Why don't we make a radio programme? So we we decided to make a radio programme and had it commissioned. The trouble was, there was really no one to talk to because it had happened in 1920. Everyone was dead, except for the mayor's daughter, who, because I was a coward, I got through to ring it, Um, and, um and she said, Stop this at once. Who's your boss? So, um But we did get a sense that she was [00:19:30] very protective of her father. So we sort of Oh, we've got no one to interview but we So we started going through the archives, and in the meantime, I left radio and started working at the Ministry for Culture and Heritage. Where I was my boss was the chief historian Bronwyn Daly, who's actually a a expert in history of sexuality and crime. And she's from, like, actually, quite a lot of, um, historians are and she said to me, Don't try and solve this But look at the effect it had on other gay men and Wanganui and in New Zealand. And then you [00:20:00] suddenly start to see all of these New Zealand gay men popping up in London and and other parts of Europe in the twenties. So Bronwyn suggestion was, you know, was this used as a way of keeping men in line like behave or look what? Look what happened to the mayor, the mayor of Whanganui. It's hard to imagine how rich and prosperous and significant Wanganui was then. It's kind of like an amalgam of Hamilton and Palmerston, but more elegant and but in terms of its economic clout. Um, then it was a hugely powerful thing, so I think it would have. It really did rattle [00:20:30] people. So the other reason it was a bit tricky to work out what to do with this is there's so many kind of angles to it. The mayor said in court that he'd been treated for his homosexuality, which looks like it was hypnosis and a thing called auto suggestion, which was quite popular in 1914. And there's also this obliteration of his name. So they sounded his name off the sergeant gallery. They destroyed his portrait. His wife and daughters all changed their name back to the maiden name. He's written out of the histories of Wanganui. Now he's probably one [00:21:00] of well, actually, Wanganui does have quite a few, um, extreme mayors, but, um, but But now he's a lot. He's a well, a historian there said he's actually become a bit of a cult, but it's great to be able to be here, actually, to acknowledge there's various people here who have supported me and encouraged me in this. The, um, my boss at the Turnbull Library teases me that this is my life's work. I'm hoping that I do finish it before my life is over. I'm actually gonna be going to Germany after Easter to spend a bit more time chasing Charles Mackay and and perhaps Darcy Cresswell as well. There [00:21:30] is an essay in the books that Carol's got out there about the war telling the story from the point of view of the Great War, which actually goes a long way to explain how the two guys connected and, um possibly a motivation, because no one's ever been able to prove that. How did the How did Darcy Chris will know that the mayor was gay and be able to confront him and say Resign or else? And then the mayor shot him. But the challenge, uh, that I'm up against at the moment is to to finish this darn book. And so it would be quite inspiring if at a future, um, same same, but different conference in the not too distant future, [00:22:00] I was actually able to stand here and tell you about the actual book. Thank you, Paul. OK, number three we've got Susannah Walker. Susanna is the editor of the Metro magazine, which is a seminal position of power in the Auckland's Queen City. It is a great pleasure to have her here speaking. Please make some noise for Suzanne. [00:22:30] I'm actually on deadline and in the throes of deadline. Um, at the moment, which means, um, my mind has been fully occupied with that and will be this weekend. But, um, So what I have done is just at the very early hours of the morning have flown. Flung down, um, my story, I guess, uh, in part And [00:23:00] also not that it's a competition, but three magazines and one book that turn the light on it might be up to 20 but yeah. So, um, if you'll forgive me, the less, um you know, the the more formal style. I've just gotta read what I hope makes sense. It's 1979 and I'm 13 years old. I live in Inglewood, population 3000 in the shadow [00:23:30] of Mount Taranaki. Nothing ever happens, except for a murder. Now and then. I'm in the third form at Inwood High School. I'm consistently good at English and I totally suck in maths. I'm a dreamer who reads while everyone else my age seems to be playing sport, and I have one favourite in fact, the only on trend outfit, which I wear as much as I possibly can. A pair of skin jeans, anyone my age might remember those you had to lie on your bed to get [00:24:00] the zip up and a boob tube. Needless to say, those days are gone. Um, I'm not allowed to get my ears pierced because Mum thinks it's common, but I compensate with an aggressive middle part and force it flicks and the fourth of five Children. Mum's an artist, but in 1979 she is swamped by the demand demands of motherhood. Dad's the company secretary for a dairy company. I don't know what that [00:24:30] means, so I just tell people he's an accountant. Our house is directly opposite Dad's office. He just has to cross the road, and he's at work. He likes to pop home for a nice piece of homemade ginger slice and a cuppa and a listen to the national programme on the Baker Light radio, which sits on the lower shelf of one of our many bookcases. My mother is a voracious reader. My father isn't, but sometimes he gets a copy [00:25:00] of Playboy for Christmas as a joke. A lot changes when I'm 13. My sterling career as a brownie is in the past. Now I was in the fairies Club or whatever a sub tribe of brownies is called, and brown owl just loved it when we chanted our motto, I'm a fairy, good and gay, helping others every day. Eventually, [00:25:30] I graduate to girl guides, but once I'm a teenager, I leave all that shit behind. However, I still have my girl guide box, so to speak. The box is what you put your stuff in when you're forced to go to girl guide camps because clearly a suitcase is far too easy. One's box is homemade to exacting girl guide specifications. Dad conjures one up in the garage, and [00:26:00] Mum neatly inscribes my name in white on the lid. It's in the girl guide box, which now sits gathering dust under the desk in my bedroom that I hide Dad's playboy after stealing it from the top of his wardrobe. Today, I can only recall one image from that magazine, but I remember it very vividly. It's a double page spread of an orgy. There are at least 20 men and women naked, sprawling, writhing, sucking, [00:26:30] stroking and entering in every possible configuration. It's deeply shocking and profoundly exciting, and I spend a great deal of time in my room pondering the ins and outs of it all. It turns my light on, and then I go and stay with my best friend Linda. She's, uh, she's just around the corner and I go and stay there for the weekend. I'm getting kind of bored with Linda, actually, because she's still mad about horses and I've obviously [00:27:00] I've moved on. I going to stay at Linda's is a bit of a treat because it gives me a break from the one activity I'm permitted to do without parents Parental supervision. Attend a rabid Christian youth group. So after a weekend of watching Linda ride her pony, I tear myself away to find Gran. Visiting from [00:27:30] the big smoke of New Plymouth has taken it upon herself to give my bedroom a jolly good clean up. Of course, she has rooted around in the girl guide box, and, of course, she found the playboy proving you're never too old to be a doer. Gran tells my parents for years, they delight in making oblique references while I writ in embarrassment. Thankfully, the orgies already see it on my [00:28:00] brain when my crime is unmasked, so I can return to it any time I want without fear of being found out. It's an amusing anecdote to share with you tonight, but I wonder now about that merging of sex and shame back when I was 13 years old and how that shaped me. But two more illuminating magazines were to follow. At 14, I'm curled up in the lazy Boy with Mum's new copy of the listener When I come across a story about [00:28:30] a youthful yodelling duo from Hump. Oh, I've never read anything about lesbians before or, as far as I know, laid eyes on any either. I reckon the top twins look in 19 eighties, ultra cool and spunky. Then Mom walks in and sees what I'm reading. They do things to each other, you know, she mutters darkly. By the [00:29:00] time the top twins arrived courtesy of the listener, I was a budding feminist. Despite there being no books on the subject in the Ood Public Library, it was simply a kind of knowing kissing boys may have been my favourite hobby at the time, but men ran most things in my world, and I didn't like it. I don't recall how I came across Broadsheet New Zealand's monthly feminist magazine, but I asked for and received a subscription for my 16th birthday. [00:29:30] I think we can safely assume I was the only subscriber in at the time. Broadsheet published my dreadful poetry, but most importantly, it gave me access to a world I could actually relate to. I felt different to my friends, and not just because I was determined not to be a farmer's wife. And then there was a bulk. According to my memory. I read it when I was 18, the year I left home for the bright lights of Palmerston North [00:30:00] a couple of weeks back in Taranaki for the weekend, I found this book in my parents' bookcase running Backwards Over Sand, a novel by the New Zealander Stephanie Dori, who co-founded the women's press in London during the seventies. Turning its pages, I discovered it was in fact, published in 1986 when I was 20. Mum's name and our old address [00:30:30] are written on the fly leaf. Until last week. I hadn't read this book for 30 years, but as with Playboy, I had retained a single vivid image, despite it being primarily about the course of a heterosexual relationship. What I remembered was a sex scene between two women. Exotic, confident Claudine. I even remember her name and an avowed lesbian and previously heterosexual Zoe, [00:31:00] a young woman from a small New Zealand town in the throes of discovery. Self discovery. The sex was explicit and consuming and joyous for all three of us. It was the first time I'd read about women fucking and it blew my mind. I like to think, looking back down the decades that running backwards over sand served as a kind of road map for me for what was possible. [00:31:30] Within months, I left New Zealand for the first time on my own small town girl self discovery mission. And I met my first female lover. Returning from overseas just before my 21st birthday, I clumped off the plane in New Plymouth and my doc Martins, sporting a buzz cut with the bristles dyed blue black. You look like a blowfly, his mum [00:32:00] charming. She then refused to speak to me for three days. When talks resumed, she told me the buzz cut was not the only thing that had shocked her. When I got off that plane, it was as if you had lesbian tattooed across your forehead, she said. It wasn't until last week rereading running backwards over sand that I realised [00:32:30] my mother hadn't come up with that immortal line herself. She had lifted it straight from this book. Page 319, to be precise. Thanks. Oh, thank you, Susanna. [00:33:00] Yeah, speaking number four is Douglas Lloyd Jenkins. Douglas Lloyd Jenkins is a design historian who reintroduced modernism to New Zealand through at home. A century of New Zealand of design. He's always got a definite point of view, something that scares the wits out of most people. But at least he knows what he's talking about. Please, ladies and gentlemen, Douglas Lloyd Jenkins. Thank you, everyone. Thank you for being here. And, [00:33:30] uh, thank you for the invitation. I'm in an interesting position of being, of course, the partner of the festival director. But I was saying to another writer, I've never been invited to a writers' conference that he wasn't the uh, festival director of So, um, I'm very pleased to be here. This is about a particular light going on, and I suppose it's about that realisation that you can have an opinion and you won't die from it. Um, the story is set in the English [00:34:00] department in Auckland University in the 19 nineties, and I can't help but notice that there are two lecturers from that department in the room. So all names have been removed and you can play a guessing game. Uh, in the early 19 nineties, I returned to university to complete a degree that I had earlier abandoned. And as part of this, I had to, uh, complete some English literature papers. And I remember, um, talking to the head of the department and begging that I didn't have to do linguistics because I had no intention of [00:34:30] carrying on in English literature in any way. And, um, which is a bit strange since I became a writer, Um, I'd come back to finish an abandoned, uh, first degree and then to get a second degree that would allow me to teach in a tertiary, uh, design school, which is where I was then working. I was a little bit older than most students, but not significantly so. And I wasn't yet. What I later learned was called a cow. A conscientious older woman student, Um, those people that ask questions [00:35:00] when the teenagers were just like the tutorial to end. Um, in my first round at University, I hadn't been very interested in writing or writing essays, but more in the romance and the drinking and the parties. And most essays were written the night before they were due when the only book you could get from the library on the subject had been published in 1936 because everyone else had got the these out months ago. Um, part of the reading for this new English department [00:35:30] course was, uh, my my engineer by the American writer Will of whom I then knew knew nothing. And I'll just read the little blurb off the back. Uh, an enduring classic. My An Engineer is the unforgettable story of an immigrant woman's life on the hard scrabble Nebraska Plains. Through Jim Burden's affectionate reminiscence of his childhood friend, this free spirited Antonia, a larger, uniquely American portrait, emerges both of the community struggling with [00:36:00] unforgiving terrain and of a woman who, amid great hardship, stands as a time of inspiration. Uh, will Cather is a writer of what's become known as the novel, and they if you've never read her, they They're simple, beautiful, lyrical, uh, lovely lovely novels. Um, and this is her breakthrough novel, and it first appeared in 1915, and I read this today. It was initially credited with revealing to America that the people of the Midwest had interior [00:36:30] lives when American literature was focused on the East Coast or was better still living and working in England. Um, I quite like that idea that, you know, this is this period with the people in the Midwest, and maybe we still think of them as sort of ciphers. Anyway, I've pretty much gone through school resenting, and I still do resent being made to read anything. Um, in particular when I was a young person, it's because I had a self. I was a a strong reader, and I read a lot, [00:37:00] and I didn't like being told to put down what I was reading by a teacher to read what they wanted me to read. Um, so Usually I just really read enough of the book and even resent, uh, went to Cole's notes just to pass the exam, and my engineer changed all that. Um, it was a It's a story told retrospectively of a young orphan boy growing up in Nebraska and as the observations of a young bohemian girl who's four years older than him called Antonia. It's full of difficult [00:37:30] emotional territory and some tragic stuff. Antony's father commits suicide, Um, because of his homesickness, and it's full of rural hardship and misery. But the one thing that excited my imagination is that the book has two stories within stories, and one of these is the story of Peter and and I'm gonna tell you the story, um, in my own words because, uh, that I'll explain why a little bit later, the way I saw it, Peter and Pa were two incredibly handsome young Russian [00:38:00] boys who grew up together being madly in love. And they, um, one of them announced one day that he was going to marry, and the other one said, Well, you know, yeah, that's OK. I'll be your best man, Um, that they were married. He married this girl. And on the way home from the wedding, they were riding a sleigh through the snow and, uh, they attacked by wolves, and, uh, they throw all the laggard overboard. But the the pack of wolves is chasing them, and they realise that they are going to be destroyed by the [00:38:30] wolves. So they chuck the bride over, she's eaten by the wolves and they ride off to America. Now, the important thing that I only realise today is that's not what happens in the book. Um, it's closed, but it's not quite. But that's the story I've had in my brain for 25 years, so I'm sticking with it for a minute. So if there's any cat scholars in the room and I know there is one, sorry about that. Uh, it excited me because the novel seemed to be me. It seems to be about cat suggesting there were possibilities [00:39:00] in life. And if you looked around in the community that you lived, people were doing and thinking differently and and you could you could latch on to them or or understand their model, and this might not have meant very much except the University question list popped onto my, um was handed out and it said, Discuss the importance of gender and sexuality in my and I still do not know what to this day. What answer they were expecting to that question, but it obviously wasn't mine. [00:39:30] I decided for the first time in my life that I would write a queer interpretation of the novel, and I'd never really done anything like that. I never done anything like it. It was a literary coming out in a dive into scary territory. So not only did I read the novel twice, I did what was then called a close reading, which universities probably still are very fond of close readings. But not only did this did I read my engineer, I wrote Read a Pioneers and the strangely titled One [00:40:00] of Ours that preceded and the major novels that post dated the professor's house. And the death come for the Archbishop, which I found a lovely gay couple of two Catholic priests who live happily together. And I would recommend that's a lovely book. I scoured my engineer and I discovered by cross referencing that with the the new uh Elman Biography Oscar Wilde that the town in Nebraska in which the novel set is the very town that Wild had passed through on his American, uh, house beautiful [00:40:30] tour, and he had used it to pose for photographs behind bars in the local jail. So it was a lovely reference there, Um, I even correlated certain phrases Kay used against the writings of Freud. So I really was going deep. I remember dealing with the kiss between Jim and Antonia that many saw as the climax of the novel and describing it as a lifeless pick that had been overhyped by heterosexual interpreters. [00:41:00] I thought I was pretty grown up. Uh, today I read, uh, Cather scholar, saying, uh, that very rarely represents a heterosexual relationship with that has any romance or sexual glow to it. So I don't feel so bad about that sentence now, and we're talking in the early nineties, and, um, Kaha was then a mystery figure. Um, she had on her death, insisted on the destruction of all her personal papers, and very few critics or writers were being exploring what is now pretty widely accepted. That [00:41:30] was a lesbian. Then you had to. You could only deal with phrases like she was intensely private. She was unmarried and she burnt all her private papers. And you had to join the dots together, which left you pretty wide open. There was a little help, and I found a book called A Life Saved Up by Her Lee, which helped. And I wrote my essay. I dropped it in the in the lecturer's box. I waited for a few days, got on with my life. And then it came with a big round circle and [00:42:00] a giant and enormous C minus the very mark that the drunken party boy used to get when he was in stage one for essays churned out overnight. There are also some pretty weird comments written on it. One said I suspect, was never dim enough to fall for Freud. Um, Hermione is a dangerous Hermione. Lee is a dangerous woman. Be careful and most repeatedly, really Christian Mark. I was completely devastated because I felt I had [00:42:30] been serious but not taken seriously. So I decided to take the paper to the convenor of the course and asked her to read it. She did, and she passed it around some other department people and came back and said to me, Lovely to my ears. That's an A plus in my class and an A minus from another colleague. She also secretly quietly said, You did give this to the worst possible person in the department so fired up. I made an appointment to see the lecturer who had marked it, and when I rang, he said, Oh yes, [00:43:00] I was expecting this call. So the day came from my appointment and I got there early. I'm always punctual. I sat there until the exact second of the appointment time. I had all the novels, all the books, all the post. It marks all the references I knocked on the door, the voice said. Come as they do come, I opened the door, tripped over the carpet, fell sprawling head first into the room for dropping all my books on the papers and on the floor, only to realise that [00:43:30] the room was occupied by another student. I was made to pick up my papers and go sit outside and sweat for another 10 minutes. Eventually I got my say my piece and we argued point by point, the only concession I recall making was that it was agreed that Peter and once they did move to Nebraska, did share a bed, and I remember having to prove it. By finding the page reference. He agreed to reconsider the the the piece, and it came back [00:44:00] to me a fortnight later with another big red circle and the grade B minus. I didn't go further, but I realised that writing gay hadn't destroyed me. It had made me, and there's just a little epilogue. Years later, I met MII Lee and by then a major literary biographer, and I was once I was able to tell her she'd once been described as a dangerous woman. She loved it. 20 years later, the same lecturer contacted me by email [00:44:30] out of the blue to ask a question about my professional life in the museum. And he started off saying, I realise we still disagree about that essay, and I thought 20 years later, and it's still bugging him. How many essays is that guy read? And mine is still playing on his mind. Um, and I said to him this. I considered that to be one of the most important moments in my life because I realised I had a voice of my own, and I thank you for it. I subsequently wrote every university [00:45:00] essay seriously, but not always with a queer point of view. And I developed a queer sensibility in my own writing that is still there today. As a lecturer, I soon realised I also realised a very important thing that the B minus is the perfect grade. No student ever complains about one. And though it was in that moment writing about Willa Cather that I learned that I could write as a homosexual or as a gay man, it took me another 20 years to realise it was OK to dress like one. Thank you. [00:45:30] Nice work. Next up we have Paula Bock. Paula is what's known as a great all rounder, a one time cricket player for Otago, the founder of the Long Acre press and award winning author of the Young Adults novels Dear Truth or Promise and Out Walked Man. She's also writing and producing some great television stories. [00:46:00] Please, ladies and gentlemen, Paula Bach, thank you very much some familiar faces in this audience. So, um, it's very nice to see some of you again, Some of you after a long time. Um and I'm very privileged to be on this panel of such talented and interesting people and lots of lots of chimes [00:46:30] for me so far. And what other people have said, Um, I remember Susanna coming back in 1981 from England, having left as a, um, a young, long haired hippie and a, um some dress from friend a pan or some shop in Dunedin like that and arriving back with a buzz cut, Um, and a Pakistani liberation front scarf and a beret and walking [00:47:00] straight past my well, my father walked straight past me, didn't didn't know who I was. And, um, I was a bridesmaid in my brother's wedding the very next week, and we all wore hats. Um, I have sort of approached this slightly differently because there was for me, no book that turned the light on. There was a light that turned the book on, but there there was no book that I remember, and I stood in front of my bookshelves [00:47:30] scanning them because, like other people like Paul, for example, growing up in the South Island in the 19 seventies, 19 sixties, 19 seventies. They really, really I came out before literature came out. Really? For me, there was no literature that led me there. I went looking for resonances. I went looking for code, and we're all very good at code, aren't we? And I when I look back [00:48:00] at, it's actually my childhood reading that always has those resonances for me. And there were two books that I want to talk about. Briefly, quickly. Um, so the first one is, uh, this little book called The Adventures of Pinocchio. You know it. And I know what you're thinking. Is it the nose that grows uncontrollably that makes this queer literature? Um, is it that it's a boy [00:48:30] made of wood? No. Well, not for me. Although you can, of course, take what you like from books because it's all about what you put into them, which is one of the reasons I like being a reader. And I also love being a writer. The book is interpreted so differently by everybody, and I'm sure that, um Carlo colo never expected anyone to find in Pinocchio what I did. Um, but it's there. It took me years to work out why this book [00:49:00] I found so compelling, so distracting, actually so disturbing and moving. And years later, I realised when I read on the cover the marionette who wanted to be a real boy. I was the girl who wanted to be a real boy. And as a child, um, well, there was no gay, no queer references, really, in my life, so queer wasn't part of it. It was [00:49:30] more about gender. That's how it came out. And, um, aside from Mr Humphries on, are you being served? And Hudson and halls? Really? There was There was no reference. I had no words. I had no characters. I had no stories to reflect the sense I had very early on very early on of being different. Um, but writers, thank God are very good about writing about misfits. And I wanted to be a real boy. I went to bed every night [00:50:00] praying that I would wake up a real boy just like Pinocchio. Pinocchio didn't actually become a real boy, mainly because the marionette and I'm assuming you all know the story. I'm not going to tell you, Um, because the, um because he was so naughty and selfish. And he went off and he did things like he sold his school book to go to the theatre, which sounds like an extremely reasonable thing to do. And he run off with a friend [00:50:30] called was one version candle Wick. But I remembered it Lamp wick, um, to toy land where they just played together forever for about five months, I think, um, until they both started to grow donkeys ears. Um, but if it was only a matter of being good and not turning into a donkey, I thought I would have become a real boy 100 times over. The disappointment in Pinocchio was wasn't that he kept getting it wrong [00:51:00] and didn't turn into a real boy and that he kept by his true excuse me by his true nature, getting into more and more impossible scrapes. It wasn't that that was disappointing. The most disappointing thing about this book and the reason it's niggled me for years and years, is that he did become a real boy. Pinocchio. Unlike all of us who identified with him, he was granted his wish by [00:51:30] the blue haired fairy, I must add, and he was transformed but he was transformed into what, And you can see how disappointed I was by what he got transformed into. He got transformed into the most conformist, boring, straight heteronormative little pissy little boy that you've ever seen. [00:52:00] And Dear Little Pinocchio. The marionette is there, broken and discarded on the floor on the last page of this book, and Pinocchio turned and looked at the Marion for a little while, and he said to himself, contentedly how ridiculous I was when I was a marionette and how glad I am that I have become a real boy. I was so pissed off for years that [00:52:30] niggled me. I didn't want to be that boy, not that boy. And of course, that book is not about sexuality. It's not really about the light being turned on. It's about me searching for the light. Really, it's it's about, but it is my the clearest way I had at that time of describing my sense of difference, and that came out as a dissatisfaction with my gender is probably more about the rules of gender in the [00:53:00] 19 sixties and seventies than gender per se. But the next wonderful thing that happened was this discovery of my next book, Pope. Perhaps the most significant book that cranked up that light in my life as a child. And it was this most derided of books. The famous five. And you know who I'm talking about, don't you? Because just like friends in the 19 nineties or Harry [00:53:30] Potter Now, if you had a Facebook page back in 1974 it would be which famous five are you, George? Dear George. Dear, dear George, I'm just gonna read you. This is the very first of the books. And this is when Anne meets George. And we all know about Anne. She was a complete sop, and all she wanted to do was dolls and clean and cook and look after the boys and make her mother [00:54:00] happy. And she was sort of slightly below Timmy in my list of which famous five character you were like. But when she met her, she called her Georgina. And she said, George says, I am not Georgina. I'm George Said the girl. I shall only answer if you call me George. I hate being a girl. I won't be. I don't like doing the things that girls do. I like doing the things that boys [00:54:30] do? I can climb better than any boy and swim further too. I can sail a boat as far as any Fisher boy on this coast. You're to call me George, and then I'll speak to you. But I shan't if you don't thank God for George. She saw me through.

IRN: 1010
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/roy_ayling_and_norman_gibson.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004400
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089694
TITLE: Roy Ayling and Norman Gibson
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Miriam Saphira
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1910s; 1920s; 1930s; 1940s; 1990s; A Man's Man - a daughter's story (book); Albert Park; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Battle of the Somme; Betty MacDonald; Chameleon; Charlotte Museum; China; Christopher Isherwood; Egypt; Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT); France; Inglewood; Kaimiro; Kaimiro School; London; Miriam Saphira; Mount Taranaki; Māori; New Plymouth; New Zealand at the Front (book); Norman Gibson; Omar Khayyam; Oscar Wilde; Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD); Rewi Alley; Roy Ayling; Royal New Zealand Returned and Services' Association (RSA); Sage tea: an autobiography by Toss Woollaston (book); Taranaki; Toss Woollaston; Tuesday Club (New Plymouth); United Kingdom; W. Somerset Maugham; World War 1; World War 2; atheism; books; concerts; costumes; cottaging; cruising; dance; depression; fancy dress; farm; granny / aunty; growing up; homosexual; homosocial; hunting; introversion; legs; lesbian; love; mental health; military; naturalism; nude; nude dinner parties; opera; pa; pets; photography; poetry; prison; publishing; rape; sewing; sexual abuse; sexual offenders; singing; strength; theatre; trauma; vegetarianism; writing
DATE: 12 February 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Miriam Saphira talks about her father Norman and his relationship with Roy. The two men met as soldiers during WW1 and formed a very close bond - was it homosexual, homosocial or something else?
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Miriam. You've just shown me a photo of two chaps in military uniform in 1916 in France. Roy and Norman tell me about Roy and Norman. Well, Norman is my father. Norman Parro. Gibson. That was his name. Um, and he went off to the first World War. They were first in Egypt, and then he was a machine gunner, and Roy was actually a rifleman from Auckland. But somehow they met up or were in the [00:00:30] same troop ship. Perhaps, um, I think they were together in Egypt. Yes, because they had a chameleon, which we had as Children. It was a stuffed when it died. When it went to France, it was too cold. And it died, and somebody took it back to London, and it was stuffed. And my father had this stuffed chameleon, but, um yes. So Roy and Norman were there in the Battle of the Somme. My father had his 21st birthday and three days later was shot through the neck and was carted off. Not expected to live. He had quite a lot of shrapnel [00:01:00] in him. Um, and Roy was devastated. Um, there's a beautiful poem that's in the book. but it's also written on the back of the book. Um, Hercules starts off about Hercules form, um form like Hercules of old mighty limbs and shapely mould. Manly strength and beauty rolled old sunshine. Obviously, he wrote it after my father's injury because it says Dre, [00:01:30] the roadway I had trod all this shell scarred stricken sod without him to help me plod old sunshine. So when night doth hold her sway outstretched arms, I fling and pray Send him back. Dear God, someday old sunshine. It's very moving. It's always moved me. I always cry when I read this poem. That's why I put it on the back, so sad they couldn't be [00:02:00] together all the time. In another era they might have been. And maybe if they lived in the city, they might have if they had followed Roy's occupation rather than my father, who, of course, had a farm. And when I first discovered this poem, of course I recognised instantly the Hercules because I was always Atlas. Um, I look like my father, big and strong, and I was a shot putter, [00:02:30] and I still am. Well, I'm still pretty strong. I'm not as strong as I used to be. My daughter can beat me wrist wrestling. Finally, in my seventies, she started to beat me. But so we have this strength. My father's strength was absolutely amazing. Bend iron rods over his leg just but, um, Roy was much slimmer. Um, a more delicate bloke. Really? So when my father was carted off, he was obviously they were obviously in love. Or certainly Roy was in love [00:03:00] with my father. He was devastated, and he got taken out, possibly suffering from depression. But, um, given that there were just dead blokes all around them in the battle of the song, it was hideous. So he had some respite and then went back to the front. But later he came to London. He got time off and came to London. Those few survivors of the first battle at the first battles in 16. And it was there that I think my father's [00:03:30] nude photographs were taken The thinker and the thorn and from a photographer. And, um, Mrs Frank Mu is written on there. But you never know about the missus. Years later, when I discovered the poem, um, it was written in a book called New Zealand at the front. And there's a number of men of significance in that book. Ally and I think a number of those men who were writing at that [00:04:00] time are possibly were possibly gay or certainly liked men. But, um and I was so surprised to see poems by my father because he wrote under the name. But I mean is not a common name. I've never heard of anyone else in New Zealand called It means mud, so I'm not sure why, but my grandfather grew up in a so he spoke Maori. So he had some reason for calling a little blonde [00:04:30] blue eyed boy. I just want you to just to step back a wee bit because, I mean, I am not aware of a lot of documentation around, say, homosexual relationships for people in the first World War. I mean, this is sounds quite unique to me. How did you I mean, how did you come across this relationship? Well, I always knew that my father had lived with Roy, but growing up as a child with that information, I never thought about them doing anything together, [00:05:00] and then a friend of mine showed me Saget and said, Is this your father? There it was Norman Gibson and Roy ailing and in toss Williston book Sage T about how he and Aussie his mate rode on bicycles up to to spend time with the men and how the men had new dinner parties or for men and how my aunts coughed at the gate to make sure someone put something on so that we're decent When the woman came in, um, how, um, a story [00:05:30] about one man, um, almost burning his genitals on the hot plate when they was carving the roast. Um um, and got that story and also the silver servant serving dishes. And unfortunately, I had photographs of them. My mother had given them to me, not saying why, um, and identified them? Yes, those were serving dishes that had held vegetables at these dinner parties. So I still have those to serving dishes. And, um, I went and interviewed Toss by then. [00:06:00] I was really interested by at this stage. This was in the eighties, so I managed to get a flight down to Nelson and go out to where he lived and interviewed him and he of course to start with. He was very circumvent, Really. He wasn't, um, going to say too much. And he and he said there were no overt signs of homosexuality. And then I said, Well, you know where abouts they lived and and I thought that they lived in the house that I grew up in. But it wasn't [00:06:30] It was the house across the road. And so he described the house, and, uh, Roy and Norman had that bedroom, and he and Aussie slept in the other room. And there was a bit of talk about the potty full of piss underneath the bed that no one had emptied. So their house keeping on Too good either. Uh, but, um and then he stopped and he said, Well, the men shared a double bed, and so I thought, Oh, well, that's that's something. Um And then he said, I said, Well, what was my father like? [00:07:00] And he said, Oh, well, he was a quiet bloke. He, um, didn't say very much. He sort of went out on the farm, and he did all the farm work. He was immensely strong, and Roy did all the housework. In fact, he was a very good wife, so that sort of put it in place for me. I mean, one can never prove whether people are sexual or not. But I think two blokes sharing a bed and my cousin, in fact went to some of the nude parties. Not that his father knew his father would have whipped him. Um, but, um, [00:07:30] and he told me before he died, how he had gone and how the he folded up his clothes very neatly, just as Roy told him to do and put them in a neat pile and sat around with the men. And everyone was very polite and nice to him. There was because he knew I did a lot of research on sexual abuse. He was very clear. Nothing like that was happening and how he had learned about sex through Roy, telling him about, um, a sex and love and saying that you always must be in control of your Penis. You mustn't [00:08:00] let it control you. And I thought so many men could have that wisdom put on them even today. So that was really nice. And he painted quite a nice picture of Roy who, um liked cooking, liked sewing, particularly and made fancy dress costumes for the local school concert and things like that. So, in fact, Roy was the same star sign as my mother. The same build. They both belonged to the operatic society. They [00:08:30] both wanted to be journalists and writers. They were very, very similar. It's just my mother could have Children and the family. After my uncle was killed, he only had one son who was, um, had polio. So he had a limp. But he was also homosexual. And I don't know whether my grandfather had an instinct to know that because he he definitely wanted a AAA manly man, so to speak. So he wanted my father to have Children because all the other sons were now dead. [00:09:00] So, um, there was this all this pressure on my father. So he broke up with Roy, and my mother was in a difficult position. So So So So from talking with Toss, did you then WWWW When were toss's memories? Uh, of of Norman? What kind of years? But he published it in 1982. So it was after that that I found out, but he was talking about the 19 twenties. They split up in 1930 [00:09:30] or 31 was when Lance died and they split up around about that time 31 32. He was a bit unsure, but Roy was incredibly upset. And so he supported Roy, and and then from that point, did you then work back? And so I found. Then, um, I started reading about the first World War. And so and then I found the book. Um, we had a copy at home of, um, New Zealand at the front, so I think we might have lost [00:10:00] Oh, I might have had one copy. I looked in secondhand bookshops for it. I hunted around, and finally I managed to borrow a copy of my cousin and photocopied it. Sorry. Breach of copyright, but sometimes needs must if it's the only copy around. And then there was another copy in the Auckland Museum Library of the second edition, and I think I photocopied a few now. Roy had poems in that, um and so did, um my father, but not so many from my father, who was much more [00:10:30] the writer than my father. And what amazed me was the poem, including God in My Father's poems, because we were brought up with him as a staunch atheist. He said he he was stuck in no man's land at one point in the war full of beautiful German soldiers, all dead, and he at that point he decided there were a God. He would never allow men to do this to other men. So although he was still a staunch RS a person [00:11:00] a very anti, um, conscientious objectors, he, um, still had this view that it was such a waste and so terrible. Um, and like many of the men who came back from the First World War, a lot of conflict, I think about why they ever went to war. What was the reason? It was just an aristocratic dispute over a boundary, I think was a trigger or something. Someone said that I couldn't. I was more [00:11:30] interested in the actual happenings in the song and probably all the beginnings of the war. I'm probably a bit of a slap happy researcher in these things. Some of them are not so interesting. Perhaps, from my point of view, I really wanted to know about how they live their daily life and what they did and and so on. And Roy was into he was a vegetarian. Certainly was. Later, my father wasn't He was a hunter and shot goats and pigs and and [00:12:00] tried to clear the mountain of goats Mount Taranaki. So he was doing that during the forties, and possibly, uh, I think they probably stopped in the end of the forties. Perhaps So, uh, we were used to, you know, killing sheep for meat and having pigs and, um, things like that. So it wouldn't have been Roy's cup of tea, I don't think, But sadly, he died in the fifties. And I can. My only memory of Roy is his legs. [00:12:30] Beautiful brown, thin leg with very brief shorts at the top. I don't remember his face. I was only small. That's a guess. I didn't look that far up. So what? What What do you think was their relationship? I mean, how did they do? You know how they met and and and what the relationship was when they were at war, they were at a from Roy's point of view. [00:13:00] Uh, telling in Toss's story is that Roy saw my father diving into, um, a pond in France and fell in love with his body. So it was a physical attraction, I think, to start with. But then, um, they spent time together in London. There was a I think my father was into a bit of a network in London because I do have a book [00:13:30] that, um was published by Robert, whose name escapes me of Oscar selected writings of Oscar Wilde. And he went to the launch of that. So I think that's a bit suspicious. Um, we had lots of books by Somerset Mourne. Um, so my parents had gay writers in their bookcase. Um, my mother played the piano. We had sing songs we had When my cousin, who I know is gay. He's dead now, but I knew [00:14:00] he was gay. The front room door was always shut. My father and Ken was there talking, Um, also, sometimes it was shut when Jack was talking. Now, Jack, not sure whether he's still alive. He was alive a few years ago. He was the first person to fly over Mount Everest, and he flew over in the second World War. Jack was maybe the instigation of the beginning of the break up the pressure on my father to leave Roy and marry [00:14:30] or leave with Roy. Um, because Roy obviously admired Jack, who was a handsome young man and made a South Seas outfit and a gladiators outfit for him. So I think the the father who had quite Victorian Well, of course, my father was born in 18 95. Roy was born in 18 86 so they had very old fashioned ideas from our perspective. So I think [00:15:00] that, um, my grandfather see, I get the impression he was fairly anti gay, anti homosexual. And he's pointed out to my father that Roy was homosexual and they could either go together or and yet they owned the farm. But it was that sort of family pressure that you had to abide by. Really? So that was sort of pressure on my father, and my father and mother had a good relationship, really. They, um, were great companions. [00:15:30] They did lots of together. They danced together. They belonged to the Benedict Club, which was a dance club. They went to opera and songs, and we got all involved in in doing songs and things in new Plymouth. Um, we had a little local drama club and farmers stomping around, playing parts in the hall. And And then when a school teacher left to another place, we swapped and did plays down at and they came and did plays with us in. So that was [00:16:00] that was a good interest for my mother and father because they liked acting and theatre and so on. But we were stuck with the farm and 82 cows to milk daily that my father visited Roy, though all the time. I remember often he would go off and see Roy and Roy's lunchtime. He worked, I think, for an electrical company or something. Doing office work. Uh, he lived in, uh, Carling Road, and he was very friends with the neighbours, and they went [00:16:30] to a lot of concerts together, and Roy was involved in Little Theatre in New Plymouth. My mother could no longer be in the little theatre because she was out on the farm having babies. So So they sort of swapped some clubs, but, uh, my father would drop off and go and see Roy and be away for half an hour or an hour. And then we might have a special treat fish and chips or a fish and chip shop. And, you know, with the Worcester sauce or the vinegar and the lemon, and or sometimes the RS A. He would go to the [00:17:00] RS a and at other times he probably he went to New Plymouth and we nobody else went with him. So I think he kept up certainly an association with Roy. And when Roy was dying, he had stomach cancer. I suspect because he was a vegetarian, he grew a lot of vegetables. He probably use the sprays and things that were around at the time because it was all pushed as being great for your vegetable garden and killing the weeds and stopping various diseases. I suspect that might have been the reason, Um, but also [00:17:30] the gas and the war and so on. There could be many reasons. Anyway, when he was sick, my mother used to make chicken broth and take it. And when they went to town, there was always AAA pot of something to take to Roy and some things. So after he died, um, we got a new car. So my father was paying off. Uh, Roy is part of the farm, and I think that took a long time because it had been the depression when he got married. So I think that [00:18:00] was a burden for them. Um, so, uh, my mother was negative about the mortgage, but, um, she didn't say anything else. Negative. And my father never said anything. Well, he wasn't a man of words, really. Except occasionally, he would surprise you by coming out with a Greek quote. Or, you know, Rain had started falling. Oh, gentle reign of heaven. You know, a bit of Shakespeare, boy. And he left school [00:18:30] at 12. But he was actually well read and And my mother had done Greek at university, so they and they were quite into spartan things. Plato. They loved Plato. They had several books on Plato. They thought we should all be good Spartans and work hard on the farm and so on. We weren't quite so amused at those ideas in your research during the time that they were in World War One. Did [00:19:00] you come across any other kind of homosexual relationships? Well, that's what I was looking for. I was hoping to find connections. And the only one really that I felt any sense for was re reality. And but I did think some of the names in New Zealand at the front would have been worth chasing up. But I didn't do that. I mean, I was working full time, and 1000 other things are going on. So, [00:19:30] um, and it must be quite tricky to work out whether, um, you know, as this comradeship, is it sexual? I mean, how how do you kind of navigate trying to put on what we would class our homosexual relationship today to something 100 years ago? Well, particularly for re reality, because he lived with a four young men. I think he had, um in his house. And of course, the Chinese are not keen on homosexuality. And yet he was revered in China. So much so that we all get [00:20:00] free visas. I think we can still get free visas to China. So thanks to reality. But they didn't realise that he was gay. Well, most of us think he was gay. You know, the bits and pieces that have gleaned on reality's life and so on. He certainly wasn't um, a blatant heterosexual, that's for sure. So I think some of the other men might have been the same now. Now, some people say, Well, after the first World War, they were so traumatised that they clung to each other, you know, trying [00:20:30] to deny any homosexuality, but having new dinner parties, I actually think that that solved it for me and the double bed. I didn't think that having a double bed would be in that time, a great thing. In 1919, they came back from the war. My father spent some of his money in an oil and a drill, a horse drawn drill to sow seed, which we then converted to pull behind the tractor, which we were still using on the farm when I was [00:21:00] there and the end of the fifties. So, um, uh, there were little tidbits, I suppose, and that's what I gleaned. Like my He refers in the poem to my father as old sunshine. Now I thought, old sunshine, where did that name come from? And I was in Rotorua when I was, uh, starting to work on this book. So that must have been 1989 1990 and there was some game in there farmers and they great big hands. It amazed me. They were in a tea shop and [00:21:30] the these delicate little cups, these great big farming hands pouring tea into cups So I'd go there for a cup of tea and, um, and a cake and talk to them. And I said, Look, there's a notation in one of the poetry books Um, that says to sunshine with my very best love Granny. So and I'd asked my sister about it and she said, Well, there wasn't anybody alive then. No [00:22:00] grannies, So it couldn't have been his mother. Um, his grandmother, at least his mother was still alive, but not his grandmother. So I asked these men I said, Look, we discovered this. And they for me to old sunshine, you know, Sunshines. And then I realised Sun shines out. Yes, OK, and my father had beautiful. You can see by the nude photographs in the book. He's got a lovely buttocks. Very nice buns. So, [00:22:30] Granny, Oh, Granny and Auntie, that's what we call an older man who brings a younger man out. So I was quite happy with that. I that I didn't really ask other people, but they were very interested. And, uh, I showed them pictures that I had. I did come across a social worker up north who had some interesting information about, um, nudity and a group of, um, sort of sunshine lovers or [00:23:00] nudists. And so I put a bit of that in the book. She sent me some bad photocopies, which I tried to reproduce. They're not that great in the book, but it's just an added dimension that there was a group here in New Zealand after the first World War, whereas in Germany, of course, it became very big because they'd lost. The war meant that their soldiers weren't robust enough and they needed lots of sunshine. And so they had very organised, as the Germans do, um, health camps and so on, particularly for men. [00:23:30] Um and possibly that's where the gay culture of Berlin came from, who knows? But they certainly had a good gay culture in those books that we now have about, um, times in Berlin and, uh, Christopher Isherwood's book, too, as I read his books as well. So the poems that that Roy and Norman wrote were they for publication, or were they just for personal? They were. The only ones I have are those that were published in New Zealand at the front. [00:24:00] There were no little booklets or anything that they actually published. But they had many poetry books and what I noticed in them. And I point that out in the book was that they made little notations. Um, one had some reference to them. Might have been sturdy legs or something. And Roy had written in his handwriting, not like mine. So there are little comments to each other about the poems. The other thing they did at the dinner parties was they spent a lot of time reading verses from [00:24:30] it was very popular in the twenties, so they lay on, you know, uh, there, under the loaf of bread and a glass of wine that sort of, um, poems and and my father continued to recite when we were young when he came to wake us up to go and get the cows for milking. Awake for the morning bowl of light has put the stars to light, and the hunter in the east is called the sultan's current and the noose of light, that sort of quotes and so on. So that was a sort of remnant. Really? How did [00:25:00] how did Norman explain the relationship with Roy to you? As as Children never did? No. It was just a fact that Roy had been there and Roy was no longer there. So was this just societal pressure back in the day, where where people just couldn't have, like, openly homosexual relationships? Well, they were been certainly living there openly since 1919 to 1931. That's quite a substantial period of time. They did things [00:25:30] together. They were involved in the local community, Roy making costumes and things. So maybe they accepted it as two men traumatised by the war. Maybe they didn't think about sex. Um, who knows? But there was a lot of freedom. I mean, there was Betty McDonald's head that was going on in the twenties, too. So there was a lot of, um, a certain amount of freedom, I think, in New Zealand in the twenties, about nudity and about, [00:26:00] um, gay. I think there was a much more, um, a gay society, and certainly in the mental health records, if someone came in depressed, Um, described as a Manish woman, which is, or sometimes they mentioned the third sex. Uh, and an introvert was the other term. They used Hillary Lapley and I did some research on files. There was no they treated the Depression. They treated the problem. But once we missed out [00:26:30] from the thirties to the fifties, there was a chunk of files missing in the fifties. They ignored the presenting symptoms. They were much honed in on the homosexuality and trying to change it with incident, shock and terrible stuff. So there was a big change, and I see that as relating to the Second World War and the Americans influencing the mental health, you know, putting in that homosexuality was a mental disorder. That's where lesbians really had a hard time because they [00:27:00] used DC T on lesbians. Many things so and some of those lesbians are still too frightened to come here, for instance, to the museum because of what was done to them high anxiety, others were brought in by themselves secretly. So, um, it was a bad black time, I think, for homosexuals and a number of Well, I think any gay man who could left New Zealand and went to London. There was plenty of Cottaging to be had there. [00:27:30] So So do you think Roy Norman would have actually seen themselves in a kind of a homosexual way? Or is that just like a construct? Now, looking back, it might have been a constructor from our perception. Looking back, they were used to being close to each other and doing things together in a trench full of half the time dead people so used to trying to do what they could to an injured comrade. Um, the trauma and grief [00:28:00] of losing friends, um, that would bind them together. But the fact that they stayed together so long and weren't ostracised by the community, which is a very small crime area, is a very small place. It's a dot on the map. I mean, Inglewood is the closest town. Um, those days it had a post office, a tennis court and a bowling green. A school. Now it has nothing. Uh, shut up. Parts of the tennis school are still there. The empty school buildings are still there, [00:28:30] so it's very, um it's very small, and it was made up of a mixture of Scottish, English and German settlers. So there were and Zimmermans there were Patersons, the Scottish Patersons and Gibsons. And then there were the Robinsons and the Georges, I think were English. Just going back on the story a wee bit. And you were saying that, um So So Norman got shot. Um, and and Roy got depressed. [00:29:00] Can you tell me a little bit more about that? Well, I just looked up the Army records and and followed those. And so Roy had some time out and then went back to the front. And then later he came on leave to London. I didn't know very much. It wasn't very clear. Um, Roy also suffered from Barrack during the time. But of course. I mean, the conditions were dreadful. And getting fresh socks was a was a marvel. Really? Um, which was why the spin discovery have a photograph of them knitting socks for [00:29:30] the men in the first World war. So you just get little tit you don't get the the full story. Um, I did know that, um, when Roy's mother was dying, my father drove all the way and what would have been an old car all the way to Auckland on metal roads to take Roy up to to deal with the death of his mother. And then they sent a message. They got toss and Aussie to, um, milk [00:30:00] the cows for them while they were away. And so, um, sent a message down a telegram down to toss. Would they be able to milk them a bit longer because there was a concert they'd like to go to, So that happened. They stayed a few days longer. So they did go to concerts together and and so on when they were in Auckland. But who knows? I mean, the scene in Auckland during the twenties was really around. Theatre, concerts, cultural things. Um, there was picking up in Albert Park, [00:30:30] just across from the police station that used to be in Princess Street. That seemed to be fairly risky. But gaming seem to always take high risks, I think. And so I think the twenties was a special time and that I think there there was much more gayness around in Europe as well as here. There were many clubs in Europe, many many clubs. The first lesbian magazine was published in the 1924 in Berlin. There were 60 lesbian clubs in Berlin alone. [00:31:00] Can't find one now. It's changed so much. We are changing society and the nude photos of of your father. They were obviously done in the studio, possibly for for Roy's benefit. Um, so I don't know whether they were present for Roy or or why they were construed and so on. Um, my father was not sent back to the front after he recovered. He was ill for some time, [00:31:30] but he trained. He was then sent to grant them. He was in horn church first and then went to grant them and trained troops there. So he's still in the military and involved to right after the end of the war. So he wasn't didn't really come back until 1919 and came back with Roy. I think they were on the same boat from, but I can't always trust my memory now, but I did get the Army records, and fortunately I just fudged the Roy and they assumed Roy must have been a relative of mine [00:32:00] and gave me his records. But normally I think now they would be stricter and I probably wouldn't have access to them. Years later. I'd never found my father's grave. And so, um, a few years ago I did go to New Plymouth and find my father's grave in the RS a cemetery. So then I was looking at the years and trying to work out where Roy's was, and I found Roy's wasn't too far away, just a couple of lines away. So and there were some daisies growing by [00:32:30] his grave. So I took some daisies from his grave to my father's grave. And so I'm back again and my mother's ashes are scattered with my father's grave. So, um, there's no plaque or anything for her, which I think is a bit sad. But I'm not sure that we can put something in the RS A for someone who's not from the RS A. It wasn't a soldier. So down and and tell me about their life Post World War One. Um, [00:33:00] Roy, I think did accounts or something. Um, what did he do? It was something an office type, um, things and writing and involved in the theatre and the concerts and so on. He was up in Auckland and my father was, um, on the farm. He left school at 12, worked on the farm, and so they would have run a different farm than the one we grew up on. When my father decided to get married, they had to put a wall back on this house that was probably built [00:33:30] in about 18 80 because they'd used it as a hay shed. So they stuck the wall back up and took the hay out and probably cleaned out the rats and so on. And then my mother, coming from the city, had to deal with that. Fortunately, she had taken home science at university with Greek art and literature. Not sure that the Greek art and literature did her too well. But, um, the home science certainly did. She knew exactly how to skin and prepare rabbits and whatever came into the house. We ate eels, rabbits. I love eel, fresh eel. [00:34:00] It's quite hard to get. So I don't know whether Roy was good at doing those things. But as Toss said, he was a very good wife. So I think he probably maybe tidied up nice arrangements and flowers and things. He seemed to be that sort of a person. From what I gleaned from my writings and just the notations in the poetry books. I still have those little poetry books and they had written to each other, and then sometimes they were gifts to each other. [00:34:30] Some of them have the first leaf written ripped out, so I suspect my mother might have done that. So, um not sure who ripped the front leaf out. I think that was perhaps a bit more blatant. Um, words there, um I got my sister had some books and she had Robbie Burns collected works that had the, um, two sunshine with Granny's very best love. So [00:35:00] she told me that, of course, before she knew what it meant. Once I'd written the book, she knew what it meant. But she also hid it from her husband. I don't think he ever saw that book. Just the nude on the cover would have upset him. He was from a German stock and Lutheran. So quite so. My sisters are much more conservative than I. So, after all the research, you you published your book in the late nineties? Yes. How was that [00:35:30] received? Well, not so well I published it, and it was in quite a hurry, Which meant that I wasn't clear to the printer on the back end. It's got lots of lots of mistakes. Um, and I published it for the chiro Centenary. 100 years of chime school, and they wouldn't let me have it there because, uh, because it was shocking, but they hadn't read it, but it was about my father. So obviously there was some gossip around [00:36:00] and also that I was such an out lesbian by then, and I was shocking, Probably. So, um, uh, some of the older people were really friendly to me, but others are the ones that were still living in Chimaera were not so friendly to me. No, um, the ones who'd moved away to cities and so on were much more liberal and quite accepting of me being so out as a lesbian. But, um, not the locals. With this now being the [00:36:30] the we're in the 100th year, 100th anniversary of of World War One. are you aware of any other New Zealand military personnel that have had kind of homosexual relationships that have that? That that you know of no I don't, Um I always regretted that I didn't spend time to hunt up those men who were published in New Zealand at the front. But of course, I was writing books about sexual abuse of Children and stopping child abuse and so on, and [00:37:00] it was also quite seriously ill, so I didn't, um I didn't do all the things I wanted to do. Still haven't. Of course, I've got a long list still of projects in writing the book. Did it Did it change your perception of of your dad? Uh, yes. I, um There were little things about my father that I put together like his voice. He had the soft intonation [00:37:30] that some gay men have. It was a softer. I mean, it wasn't when he was angry and yelled at you, but he had this soft intonation when he said things quietly that I liked, um and yeah, the nude photographs then fell into place by doing the research. I then understood because I tried to took me ages to try and decipher the signature on the photographs to start with. I thought it [00:38:00] was Frank Muir, and then it looked like Mrs Frank, you know. And then someone said it could be Irwin the It's hard to read the surname. Um, so I was going to I thought, Oh, I should go to London and look for the photographer, but never did. When I went to London, I was too busy going to gay bars. We were trying to find someone to stay that was, was affordable, like friends. [00:38:30] So, um, yeah, the there is a lot I. I just regret that I didn't, um that you don't have the resources to do that sort of research. And and I think it's still hard to get resources to do gay research. It's not high on the list of research and the whole thing about the first World War. They're not telling about the traumatised men and how terrible fathers they were, [00:39:00] Um, and how skewed things were. It was much more so military orientated. And there was no qualms about shooting things dead. Um, I think that they overlook that partly because their own ancestors weren't so hot. Um, and the Second World War was just as bad. Um, one thing that misses out in the Second World War that I did my performance about was [00:39:30] I was born in 1941. My father was sent off to Trentham to train troops. So what did the government do? They sent a a young bloke to run the farm because my mother didn't milk cows. Um, she was too busy cleaning rabbits and and and looking after she had a breast fed baby and and three young Children. So three other four young Children channel together at that time. So they sent a young man to run the farm and he was expected. They quickly put [00:40:00] an ad on to the house, which was really tumbled down. Some of the weather boards have fallen off at this stage. It wasn't AAA good, healthy place to live. Um, so they put up an even shoddier building attached to the end of the hall where he was to live. Um, and of course, one day he tried to rape my mother in the bedroom and I was in the cot. I was 18 months old and I screamed so much. I had a flashback [00:40:30] to it years later and asked my mother about it, and she said, I'm amazed. I never said anything about it because I thought you'd never remember. But she said yes. You screamed so much that it stopped him. He couldn't continue, Um, and he turned around and got a pillow and tried to smother you. And I was trying to drag him off you. And she said, and from then on you had trouble with your breathing and I thought, Well, that's where my asthma comes from. I do have a lot of allergies, but yeah, so and I think, [00:41:00] How many women did that happen to whose husbands trotted off to the war and they were sent? And it would be some young man who wouldn't understand he wasn't selected, possibly because he was cross eyed or had flat feet or some little. He wasn't a real man because he didn't go on the great adventure as men saw it, not knowing the realities so he'd have all the hallmarks of that angry resentment that builds up [00:41:30] and take it out on a weaker person than yourself. Which is how I find rapists think, having worked for in the prison, it's interesting that I chose to work in a prison with sex offenders for so long. 12 years no longer because I work with adolescents later for child, youth and family. But so, um and they're not They don't talk about that. They don't talk about the damaged men who come back from war and expected to take up life again and [00:42:00] and be healthy. Good fathers. I don't think that happens. Their visions distorted. They they, um, don't, um And they have quite severe post traumatic stress disorder. So you know, there there's many secrets. I think in New Zealand we are at the end of the world and the stories don't actually go anywhere. They are not very open about it. I mean, people were shocked when I started talking about the sexual abuse of Children and journalists tried to shut me down and so on. [00:42:30] But I just if every child had a happy, healthy childhood, what a lovely world we would have. We are in a beautiful country if the dairy farmers stop polluting all the rivers. Mhm. Did your mom ever talk about, um, Norman's male relationships? No, no. Um, it seemed to be acceptable that he went off to have time with Roy. That seemed to be acceptable. But sometimes my [00:43:00] mother was negative about the money are paying. But, I mean, they put all their war money, and what I couldn't understand is why they couldn't stay there together when they owned the farm. But it seems like parental pressure was still had to be observed.

IRN: 988
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hlr30_hands_on.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004399
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089693
TITLE: HLR30 Hands On
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Creek
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 2010s; Alan Bennett; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Brian Tamaki; Carmen Rupe; Civil Union Act (2004); Creek; Destiny Church; Dunedin; Georgina Beyer; HLR30 Hands On; Human Rights Act (1993); Jac Lynch; John Banks; Jools Topp; Kawika Aipa; London; Lotus College (Dunedin); Lynda Topp; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Māori; Radio New Zealand; Radio Pacific; The Lady in the Van (film); Thistle Hall; Topp Twins; United Kingdom; Wellington; activism; affection; bisexual; body image; body issues; bravery; butch; campaigns; civil unions; community; criminalisation; elders; film; first aid; funding; gay; google. com; healing; hlr30hands. org; homosexual law reform; human rights; identity; indigenous peoples; indigenous rights; lesbian; marae; marriage equality; massage; media; pre-internet; pride; pronouns; protest; queer; radio; relaxation massage; role model; sex; shame; tension; touch phobic; trans; transexual; transition; transmasculine; transmasculinity; unashamed; volunteer
DATE: 8 February 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Creek talks about HLR30 Hands On - a massage event in April 2016 to show appreciation to the people who fought for homosexual law reform in Aotearoa New Zealand.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Craig, and I believe very strongly in queer community and, um, have been quite immersed or steeped in queer communities since around the age of 18, or increasingly, in my twenties. I'm now 33 and I'm not an academic person, although people think probably that I would be I actually am such a slow reader that I have to have practical skills to have fun. Bookish. This is not my fun. So I [00:00:30] got a certificate and relaxation massage a few years back, and I am really into the idea of of humans, a few human animals as grooming creatures who who touch one another. And we have, quite now quite a touch phobic society, I think. And that is sad. Um, because safe and and affectionate touches is very, very healing and lovely. Um, and then because there's a whole lot of homosexual law reform 30th anniversary events [00:01:00] coming up in Wellington this year, I got to thinking about how, uh, criminalization affects the body and how criminalization is all about shame. It is about society and the state telling people to be ashamed of their bodies, their desires. It criminalises affectionate touch, which is what sex can be. Um, I mean, there's a whole lot of ranges of different kinds of sex. But if if [00:01:30] it's all consenting, essentially, it's a kind of touch that is supposed to be good and feel good and good for you and everything like that. So I think that to have an event where where you're using healing and relaxing touch to thank the people who who were activists and protested and who were criminalised um, 30 years ago is is a a nice sort of a thing. So that's why we're doing HLR 30 hands [00:02:00] on, and I'm getting together a A small team of volunteers who are both queer, identified and trained in some form of massage or body work like they're not all the same as me. I do relaxation massage, but there's a deep tissue massage provider and, um, Bowen, technique and craniosacral and other things like that. But they're all healing touch, um, and so, yes, I'm getting together a team of people to do that, to offer that as a a sort of a drop [00:02:30] in centre that we're setting up at Thistle Hall on the 2nd and 3rd of April in 2016 and and, yeah, we in March, I'll be actively pushing for and inviting people who were activists or who know people who were, because I think there'll be a There'll be a thing where people don't want to put their hands up and come and get massage. So I we'll be encouraging people to refer others on and tell them just how entitled they are if they want to do. Do you think, um, [00:03:00] the body can hold on to that? Kind of, uh, that that kind of negative energy, that that tension for that length of time or or does it dissipate? I I believe it can and that, Yeah, I think it even sort of shapes the body, because if you walk around holding your muscle tense unconsciously for a long enough period of time, it kind of becomes a thing, a part of your body, I think, And there would definitely be practitioners [00:03:30] who would who would be adamant that it's stored in the cells, that that your body has emotional memory. And I mean, I've certainly seen, you know, like if you massage people long enough, you you do, um, have times where where people start crying on your table because they're remembering something that happened three years ago or you know, why not 30 years ago? I don't know. Um, not that we're aiming to make people cry or or anything like that. It's not necessarily to be cathartic, [00:04:00] but certainly I know that at the time that you are experiencing a lot of shame and at the time that you are experiencing a lot of anger or indignation or humiliation or fear at that time. It really, really does affect the body and it is held in your body, and I can't really say how long it is held for. I think that's quite a nebulous sort of a question. But, um, but I think if I were an older activist who had been around 30 years ago, I could imagine myself still having a kind of [00:04:30] a a need for that to be recognised and that to be rubbed out of me, I think that would be or it would be nice. Anyway, it would be nice to feel that I was being thanked for my for my bravery. I think they were very brave and courageous. All of them anyone who was not even necessarily out as gay, because I know a lot of people came out as gay and bisexual at that time, but also people who felt that they did need for their own safety to remain in the closet but who, who were supporting others who [00:05:00] were who were out on the streets or public, became the public faces of homosexual law reform. Um, we will be offering massages across the board, not not just, um, gay men, but also, you know, lesbian women. Trans women who I believe almost certainly enjoyed as much persecution as gay men at that time. Yeah, and a lot of other kind of queer identities who were involved in the campaign. Um, I [00:05:30] cannot really get my head around how it must have been to have lived in that time when there isn't any Internet, and I grew up in a pre Internet time. So I do understand that, but to have lived in a pre Internet time when you've got this massive need for connection with your community and for your community, to need your community that way and to really desperately need to see that there are others like you to hear their stories to go. I'm OK. Oh, my God. There's so many people who are like me, [00:06:00] which we can just get with the touch of a button. Now we just google it, um and they must have. I mean, I know that they communicate like the you know, the small communities did form. They were able to find each other. There were little newsletters and pamphlets and very DIY sorts of ways of sharing their cultural information. But I also think there were people who probably struggled to find that community and to have a sense of community. And so it was a scary [00:06:30] time. That's my theory. Scary and brave. Anyone who Anyone who did anything towards homosexual law reform was brave. And, yeah, I'm grateful as a young queer person. So, yes, What was the question? Did I answer the question? You absolutely answered the question. I am wondering, um, I know I do this, but do you ever kind of try to put yourself back, say, 30 years and wonder how how you would have what you would have done? Yes. And [00:07:00] that I mean, I guess all I can do is if I can only transpose my young adult adult self now onto my young adult self in the eighties and and I guess that I would have been as fiery and publicly, um, lesbian about it at the time. Um, I think transgender wasn't really a transgender male. Transgender masculinity wasn't so much of a thing. Maybe Butch was. I think I probably have been a butch. Liz. Um [00:07:30] um, and I would have I would have been protesting and campaigning on on behalf of the guys, but that's it's important to make a distinction. I think that, you know, female bodied people were never criminalised, so it was in a way easier for them, safer, simply safer for them to be loud and proud and out. And you know, of course, there were gay men who were also but just it was probably scarier and [00:08:00] less safe for them to be out. I don't know. But so to answer that question, I can only answer it from a female bodied perspective, which is to say, Well, I, I think I would have been loud and obnoxious and rude to all the streets. Yes. Are there any activists or people from that period that you like really look up to or that really kind of stand out to you? I, you know, I really, really admire, uh, the top twins who [00:08:30] I didn't think I used to think because they were on TV three. They were quite mainstream. And But then I saw the top twins, the movie, and I realised just how radical they are and were, um, not just around homosexual law reform, but also around the Maori rights movement as well. Um, yeah, they're they're brave and really choice. And I also I also really admire the likes of Carmen Rope and Georgina buyer, um for for sort of the same reason, [00:09:00] just being out and proud and unashamed. I think, you know, like countering shame with UNASHAMEDNESS is the boss, and that's yeah, that's what they did. It's not to say, as I've said, you know, we we'll be massaging people who were in the closet. We we it's not. It's not, um, it's not a bad thing to have been in the closet back then or to be in the closet now, But in terms of role models, I have to look to the ones I can see. I guess so, Yeah. [00:09:30] When you're, um, massaging people for this event, are you trying to also draw out stories Or it's simply just a a massage. And that's simply just to massage and and provide relaxation therapy and appreciation. Yeah. I mean, they'll be It's not like we'll be shutting down anybody who wants to talk. And they may very well want to reminisce and talk or as a when you're trained in massage, you kind of there's some kind of hm not counselling element [00:10:00] that goes with it. But just that you you do allow people to you make space for them to say things if they need to say things and that Yeah. So, yeah, we'll see. What? What got you into relaxation massage? Um, well, in my in my profession, I work over in, um, media and, um, and when I was very young, like a 18, I worked in a print shop that lead me eventually into media and and working in the print. [00:10:30] I would do some proof reading and that lead me intermediate. And in the print shop, we were publishing some massage manuals for a massage massage school nearby that was in London. Um, and I just while I was busy photocopying and collating all the binding binding them. And then I would read them, and I just thought, Wow, this this sounds really doable. Like it's not. It's not hard, like like it's not massively complex or you, I don't know, don't have to be a specifically special person [00:11:00] to be able to get your head around this stuff and do it. And yeah, it just stayed with me. How interesting and and attractive to me, That was, um And so then when I moved back home to Dunedin the next year Oh, it might have been a few years, but I eventually enrolled in at the Lotus College of Natural Therapies down there, which is not, um, not not like a You don't do sort of like a two year where you can do a two year diploma thing, but they also do sort [00:11:30] of 20 week, 10 week tin week and then, uh, first aid certificate. And also you get assessments. You have to do 100 hours of practical to get your certificate, and and that was like a good amount of study and learning for me to be able to stick to and do it and follow through And um, yeah, just It's so different from reading books or anything to do with words on the paper and it's so human And [00:12:00] yeah, I think growing up I I wanted more affection than I received from my mother in particular. And so it's really nice to be able to kind of, um, be in a be in a like a safe body touch contact role with other people as well. Like, I mean, I find it rewarding as well to to give affection, not to touch. Does affectionate [00:12:30] sound make it sound like it's sexual? It's not sexual. It's very boundary and good. Um, but it's just so human. It's so humane. And that is what appeals to me about it. It's interesting what you were saying earlier about how we are so, um, averse to kind of touch now. And I'm just wondering if you could, um, kind of expand on that. So you know why? And, um, it seems such a human need, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, [00:13:00] I don't know. I mean, it's when I say that I I'm speaking as a as a westernised white person who sort of lives a reasonably middle class kind of life. I guess I think my job is quite middle class or something. I don't know. I think why? I think that there would be a nexus between our touch phobia and the kind of like onslaught. We're constantly seeing billboards and media and advertising that make us feel [00:13:30] afraid of germs. Um are ashamed of bodies like body, body hair and, um, any kind of blemishes or imperfections. And maybe we're sort of maybe we've become afraid in our own skin, and it makes us afraid to touch others as well. Maybe it's Yeah, maybe it's individuals going around afraid in their own skin rather than necessarily actually afraid of everybody else. But we project our fear of ourselves on [00:14:00] to other people as well. I don't know. That's a theory. Has there been like a similar event in terms of massaging kind of older activists before? Or is this something completely new? Uh, well, one of my one of the team of volunteers, um, says he's done elders appreciation days. Um, before I think that might be based, and he's a lomilomi practitioner. And I think he I think he's [00:14:30] gone out to and done that. Yeah, not necessarily because they were activists. But on the other hand, just by living your life, You you you are kind of an activist, if you know what I mean. Like, if you're if you're belong to any group that is marginalised or needs to stand up to a bully at any point, then by living your life steady and confident and proud and just being in and of yourself, then you are an activist. Hm? Do [00:15:00] you like that word activist? I do. I think I have a problem with it. Yes, I like it. And and some of the other language you're using. So you you're using words like queer. Um What? Yeah, I mean to to talk to me about language because I mean I. I find it really interesting how people either identify themselves or identify groups. Yeah, and in particular with that, I think with that generation from the seventies and eighties who who were [00:15:30] protesting back then, there may have been perhaps fewer identities with under the queer umbrella floating around like that. I think we're mostly talking about people who would have identified as gays, lesbians, maybe transsexuals or transvestites as well at that time, Um, and obviously, bisexuality. I don't know if you know about that. There's a lot of conflict between the lesbian identified and the bisexual identified [00:16:00] women at at that time. Um, and I know that some from that generation object to the object to the term like they don't. It's not that they object so much as they don't identify with the term queer, because for them it was maybe too abusive that it hasn't been reclaimed. Others, I think, have reclaimed it. It's different for them and then, yeah, trans trans identities, like I think of Butch as a form of transgender [00:16:30] um, identity. And for me, it's trans masculine, and that is what I am. I'm I feel like I've got a lot of parallels with people who medically transition and need to transition. I don't feel the need to do that, Um, and so I don't know, our our generation maybe has a lot of space for a lot of different. You know, we have gender, queer gender fluid, androgynous, non binary. All of these [00:17:00] terms, which are quite new that I don't think they were floating around in the seventies and eighties. So terms in terms of terms, I have to make sure that when I when I call for people to come and be massaged, that I do focus on or try to use terms that they actually would likely use for themselves. While also when I'm calling for people to be volunteers, use the the broad scope of terms that are available now. And I guess [00:17:30] what I'm hoping is that there's a bridge there that I understand that lesbians are my ancestors. Like that. They are my aunties. People who identify as lesbians are my aunties, as are people who identify as bisexual, as are you know that. And I guess, Yeah, I don't know how much the younger generation necessarily think of those people as their ancestors, even if they don't use the same terms. But I guess I would hope that they can see what that they are [00:18:00] inheritors, what they've inherited and socially, if not anything else. I don't know. Yeah. So growing up, can you recall the first? Um, say, um, rainbow queer? Um, thing in the in the media. So you know, like a political event. So, like we had homosexual law reform in the mid eighties, which you would have been born, what, 82? I was born in 82. I was four years old, actually. Do you [00:18:30] Do you remember that? Uh, I can remember John Banks on the radio on on on, um, what was he on Radio Pacific? Maybe at that time, I do remember him having rants about stuff. Although I feel like that would have been in 1989. So I don't know what he was ranting about then. But I, I kind of remember there was a bit of a tremble in the household when that law was passed or something. Probably. Yeah, after [00:19:00] law reform. I mean, what what's the next big bit of kind of legislation or kind of political movement in the in the queer communities that you you I'm aware of the civil unions and there's 2005, isn't it? And so then 2006 was the 20th anniversary of homosexual law reform, which I believe you did a thing on Radio New Zealand's website, um, about Commemorating it at that time. So I remember civil unions, and I remember the 20th anniversary of homosexual law reform. [00:19:30] And, yeah, I definitely fought for civil unions. Although I wanted gay marriage and I thought civil unions was a a trick, um, to to keep us as second class citizens, um, while pretending that it was equal. But I don't I don't believe that. And so I'm glad that we got gay marriage in the end, because then that was 2013 gay marriage, same sex marriage. Bill was passed. Um, then that's good. And [00:20:00] now I'm married, and I never was civil unionised, and I'm pleased about that anyway. Yeah, as far as I know. But I guess what did we have? The Human Rights Act is 1991. Bill of Rights. Uh, 93. 94 Early nineties. Yeah. Yeah. And that includes provisions for no discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. Yeah, so? OK, so there's the timeline. You are 94 [00:20:30] is the next one, then civil unions and then gay marriage. So do you remember things like, Say, were you in Wellington when the Destiny Church marched? No, I was still living in Dunedin, but we definitely did things to counter Destiny Church in Dunedin. I can remember making firewood with Brian Tamaki stencilled onto it like a stack of fire. The stencils of Brian for burning like witches. Um, yeah, that was definitely scary. And again, [00:21:00] there's Georgina Baer on the steps of Parliament. Just shout. I don't know whether she shouted down the marches and she don't know if she was face to face with Brian. I can't remember, but I know that that was like that was electrifying. Watching me on telly, it made me cry. She's awesome. I hope she will come and get a massage. How is that going? How's it going? Finding finding activists? Um, well, I've got sort of more of a time plan at the moment. I'm really focused on getting my volunteer [00:21:30] team together and, you know, making sure it's a reliable team who will show up and, um, getting the kind of framework around the event in place. I have to think about the tables and screens and things like that in March, which is next month. For the listeners listening March is the big drive to to get, get people to make bookings and come to us but the thing that there's interest in it, um, as a general idea and, yeah, I mean it. Always as [00:22:00] someone who's kind of involved in the massage world. It it seems like an easy enough thing for me to go and get a massage. Um, but I know that there are lots of people out there who have never had a massage, and it would be really good if people are curious about the having one who've not had one before. I hope that we can create an environment where they can feel trusting enough to bring themselves and 41. That would be really awesome. [00:22:30] So hopefully that will, that will work out. Is there anything that, um, we can do to help out? Are you calling for people listening? Oh, yeah. If people, if people want to get involved um, II. I need I need a couple of runners to be basically laundering during the day. There's a There's a laundry directly across the road, uh, and we'll have to be washing towels [00:23:00] and drying them and bring them back to the hall, the hall, maybe someone to be in the kitchen having cups of tea ready and stuff for for both the activists and the ma. If you're listening and you are actually a queer trained massage therapist, I've got about eight volunteers at the moment, but I can still use more. Um and so, yeah, if you are keen, please visit the website. Will you put a link to the website? I'll just tell you the website. It's HLR 30 [00:23:30] hands dot org. Um, and yeah, you might be able to join the team. That would be awesome. And also, we are going to train a small group of people who are not trained in massage or body work to be able to do, um, just some feet massages and head, neck and shoulder massages, and that will be so that activists can come in. They don't have to make an appointment. They can just drop in, have a foot massage or, like 15 minute foot massage or head, neck and shoulder massage. And [00:24:00] um, yeah, we'll be running a training day for that, probably early March. If people are interested in in that side of it, that would be cool, too. Is this something you'd like to see happen like, say, annually? Or it's quite stressful to organise it. Um well, it's not something that I wouldn't like to see happen annually. I think it would be really cool to have it happen annually. I guess I would need more of an organising committee thing to [00:24:30] help plan it out if I were to do it annually. I don't mind Project managing, but it does mean that I'm thinking in the future a lot. And I don't I prefer to be just thinking in my present day, I'm at heart. I am a miss massager a miss, And, um, I just happen to be organising this thing now, So yeah, it would be cool if it would happen every year. I don't know if I will organise it every year. So you've got, uh, volunteers. What about kind of funding? How is this? Has this been [00:25:00] funded? Cool. So, I, I don't work as a professionally I do it from time to time to get my hand in, so I have a reasonably ok paid job. So I am self funding this project with with my with my side monies of which I don't actually have heaps of disposable income, But so that's why we're doing some fundraisers. Um, one is the indomitably community spirited? Uh, Jack Lynch is organising a film screening, which will be on [00:25:30] the sixth of March. I think that's a Sunday at Lighthouse Cuba, and the film is called. Is it like the Woman in the Van or Yeah, The Woman in the Van, which stars Maggie Smith. It's about this woman who parks up in someone's driveway and just lives there for 15 years or something. I think the guy is a famous. Is Alan Bennett a famous person? He's famous in some way anyway. So it's just this movie about this woman who just moves into the sky's driveway, which sounds pretty cool. And I think tickets are 20 bucks, of which of which [00:26:00] 11, or of which nine goes towards HLR, 30 Hands on. And there's a Facebook event for that which you should be able to find on Facebook. If you go to Jack Lynch's page or find Jack Lynch. Everybody knows Jack. So just ask Jack, Um and, um, and that would be really, really awesome just because Oh, yeah, well, I should note that a couple of this is a national event because I'm flying up. Two Miss two, Miss Miss One and one from Dunedin and one Maus or from Auckland. [00:26:30] Um, when I say that, I don't know what pronouns they use. I don't know whether they'll be masseuse or massager from Auckland. So So people are coming from Auckland and dude and I'm just buying the flights at the moment. And so that's the sort of thing that that, um contributions will go towards covering is is transport. Um, we hope to be able to have activists come down from up the coast as well, and we'll make sure that the train trip is covered or petrol is covered or whatever, so they don't have to pay to get themselves [00:27:00] into town for a massage. Um, things like oil, food screens, stuff like that, that they're the sorts of costs that we need help with. And also, I myself am giving a AAA relaxation massage once a week at home. We have a studio room there, um, for 30 bucks, which is quite a good deal. It's a full body massage. That's once a week between now and April, the 2nd and 3rd, which is our event.

IRN: 987
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/ann_marie_stapp_homosexual_law_reform.html
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TITLE: Ann-Marie Stapp - homosexual law reform
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VOICES: Ann-Marie Stapp
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 1980s; Alison Laurie; Ann-Marie Stapp; Anti Springbok tour protest (1981); Aotearoa New Zealand; Bible; Christianity; Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (1979); Fran Wilde; Graeme Lee; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Judith Dale; Māori; National Conference of Lesbians and Gays in Education (Wellington 1986); Parliament buildings; Prue Hyman; Rainbow Wellington; Rape Crisis; Rape Crisis cloak; Salvation Army; Salvation Army Citadel; Salvation Army soldier; Sociology of religion; United Kingdom; Upper Hutt; War Cry (magazine); Wellington; Wellington Polytechnic; Wellington Town Hall; Women's Refuge; Women's Room; academics; activism; bisexual erasure; brass bands; children; church; class; classism; coming out; conservative; cornet; door to door collection; engagement; facebook. com; feminism; gay; heteronormativity; homophobia; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; law; leather; lesbian; love; marriage; middle class; morality; music; parents; pedophilia; protest; racism; radio; reconciliation; relationships; religion; research; sexual abuse; social justice; sociology; sunday school; timbrel; university; values; violence; visibility; working class; youth group
DATE: 28 January 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Em, Marie, during the eighties, Um, you were a member of the Salvation Army. Is that right? That's right. I was a soldier of the Salvation Army. I was a uniform, bonnet wearing member of the Salvation Army. And I played my room and, uh, played Cornet. So, um, my connection. I've been a church person all my life except my twenties. And when I was eight, I moved from one area to another and we moved opposite of Salvation Army family. [00:00:30] And I jumped in the car at eight and went to Sunday school, which meant I did everything available for the next 12 years. I did all the Bible study courses. I did a five year cadet course. Um, I played the tambourine. I sang in the songsters. I played in the band. I did all the Christmas carolling on the back of the bar. Uh, truck. I took all the vowels that you take at different ages in the army. So from junior soldier to senior soldier, and then eventually [00:01:00] to believing I had been called to full time ministry and had started, um, attending what they called future officer fellowships. So, uh, a minister in the church is called an officer. So I was, um the army was everything, um, And what happened? And when I went to the army at eight, I found this lovely old lady sitting in a pew. There was my grandmother, and I hadn't had much to do with Europe and so much of my life. But it [00:01:30] turned out that my great great grandparents were original salvation in the 18 eighties. When they opened, when they opened fire, as they would say, all the army opened fire. Fire A of hallelujah. And, uh, yeah, the whole military, uh, military. Uh, so, you know, the British military structure, which is what the army in in the east end of London based it on and was attractive to people. [00:02:00] So, uh, yeah, it was my life. So in the eighties, what what sort of age would you have been then? I turned 2085. So from age 8 to 20 the Salvation Army was my family, outside of home youth group, you know, horror movie nights. And, um, so really formative years, lots and lots of, um, quite some quite good Christian indoctrination alongside some very questionable stuff that I had to unravel later on. [00:02:30] But, uh, certainly really formative in terms of creating value system and and belief systems and, uh, ethical and social justice, because pre 1985 I think people would have seen the Salvation Army as social justice because they were they were there for the poor. They were there for the people. Um, you know, the storms that come, they'd be there with their cups of tea. And so there's a strong social service arm of that church [00:03:00] and, um, and a working class origins as well, which probably attracted me to it as well when I think about it. So it was it was pretty much everything. And then around, um, 84 I busted my leg up in a motorbike accident and, uh, sought some assistance from the woman's refuge of the area. And I met a worker who was to unfortunately become my partner [00:03:30] and, uh, moved from worker to partner. And yeah, it's a little bit of a a little bit of a and that's kind of key to the story, really, because it wasn't a good coming out. And so I'm a little town and somewhere else in the in the North and in Wellington. There's this big thing about to brew and blow, and because I lived in a really conservative town, we only heard one side of the story, which was the [00:04:00] Army was making a stand against homosexual law reform and there was a petition and we were expected to take that petition around. And I had my little bit of paper and put my signature on it, and he told me I can't get it off So it's on there permanently now. And I got about six signatures before I finally had some resistance and it was at work. I worked for a government department and my boss said, Get that out of my face And I thought I was [00:04:30] in trouble for taking something to work. But I was actually in trouble because I was anti gay. Were you actively yourself? Did you feel anti gay yourself? Or were you just not really realising what you're being asked to do? I didn't have a clue. I don't actually understand. When I look back now, I think God, I was naive. I was really naive and I thought, Well, this is what you do and Of course, the way it was being sold to us was that we were going to make homosexuals legal. You know, it wasn't talking about decriminalisation [00:05:00] or it wasn't. There wasn't an accurate view of what we were doing. It was this petitions against gay men. So, no, At 1920 I wasn't understanding that. And, um But who? Who was selling you? That? The inaccurate information. Was it just the people in your particular church? Well, 19 eighties we didn't have there wasn't media like there is now. So what you got came down through the war cry [00:05:30] or got fed by the captain in charge of that particular core, that particular church. So the war cry being the magazine magazine, you know, So you got told it was some years later when, 88 when I did sociology of religion, that I went back and reviewed all the newspapers in the archives from 1984 through looking at that whole period of time and talking with people from the Salvation Army. So in Wellington, there was a huge internal [00:06:00] fight within the Salvation Army about this about doing this because the Salvation Army, while they took the petition around didn't create it. They got hooked up in a certain group, got hooked up in the right wing, taking the petition around against homosexuality. And I didn't know that for another three years. So this was just expected of me. I just did it. And suddenly I've got this person at work going. What the hell are you doing? And it made me stop and think, and I was engaged. Um, you [00:06:30] know, we were gonna go into the offices together and, um who who were you? A young fellow. And before the before the motorbike. Well, he he proposed to me around the time I crashed my bike. So we were We were madly in love. I was 18, he was 19 and we were gonna get married, and, um, he and I went I had to go a separate way. He went off to university, and I had to stay put because of my leg, and he came home to see me [00:07:00] to break the engagement off because he had had a relationship with someone, and it happened to be a guy and, uh, you know, and I'm like, making toasted sandwiches for lunch and looked at him and said, Would you like another toasted sandwich? Was my first words out of my mouth? I kind of you know, So I made him, You know, I wasn't heartbroken in the sense that I'd be heartbroken now if a relationship ended, because I don't I think I was really naive. And I remember just [00:07:30] saying, Oh, here's the ring back and you have to come with me to take all the engagement presents back. So you actually you saw yourself as straight at the time. Yeah, I did. And then you met the woman from Women's Refuge. Who? And what happened then? Is that the Army? Someone in the Salvation Army? I was down at the hall one day, and this couple, who I admired, um, stopped me and said, You need to be careful [00:08:00] and I was, you know, what was that? And it's like, Well, sometimes, you know, because I by then I started getting help for having been sexually abused, and they said to me, it's not uncommon for women who have been abused to seek the solace of the arms of other women for a period of time, which is the old It's phase you're going through. Don't get caught in the trap. And I felt sick. I remember just going off somewhere outside and feeling nauseated, [00:08:30] probably from a number of levels. One. I was doing something wrong, and I've been caught out, but I wasn't quite sure what it was, but nothing had happened. So there were obviously rumours in the community about the local lesbians at the refuge. And I got caught up in that and and so suddenly I started feeling this big disconnect. And when I think about it now, had had they been able to have the conversation with me is that you're [00:09:00] fine. You know, coming out is fine. And how can we can we get you some help? Um, and be careful of this person because they're professionally abusive, not because it's a a lesbian. There would have been a whole different pathway, but back in the eighties, it was very much, um, look, our soldiers handbook. There I was a Sunday school teacher, and our soldiers handbook clearly said, um, that, um, lesbians or gays could not be in leadership positions with Children because [00:09:30] of the natural affection that rises between Children and their leaders quote unquote. And I remember that 32 years later. So So I'm aware of that in hand book. So what does any of that mean? So immediately? I'm I'm cast with, um, lesbians and gays, paedophiles and I and I'm trying to recover from my own experience. So I've got this. I've got this place that was this huge sanctuary to me suddenly pulling the carpet because [00:10:00] I'm getting feminism. And of course, 1979 80 was the United Nations women's convention. And I remember petitions then in 1979 about these feminist women. So the church was always taking this, you know, woman that need to be in their place. And if you're doing anything outside of that, then you're not part of us. So the whole question of belonging, And then when I came out there was the What was I coming out to? You know, I came out [00:10:30] to with with an older woman. Um, and I didn't actually meet any lesbians until I got to university. So I was in this relationship for a year before I had any other contact. So what? What kind of period was that was that was that was That was kind of just as the bill had been introduced and the petitions were starting to get active around the country and the scenes on Parliament steps And, um, Graham Lee Is it Graham [00:11:00] Lee saying things like, You know, if this bill passes, we'll see homosexuals holding hands on the street and he's starting to hear the radio stuff. And but certainly then so 85 homosexual law reform was just coming to the fore. And then I moved to Wellington at the end of the year, the kind of the thing at work where the boss said No, not signing that. And then I transfer over to actually, um, suddenly I'm in a different world. We're still with the church, [00:11:30] just just hanging by my teeth and something happened. I couldn't even tell you what it was, but I think it was actually I do. I was trying to be a woman in a brass band and upper hut. Um, I got transferred from a corner because it wasn't proficient enough for that little group, and they put me on a different instrument and I didn't get it. Something happened in a band practise one night, got up, walked out, put the instrument back in its case and left. And you know, no one ever came and spoke to me. I've been been in the army for 12 [00:12:00] years. Was looking at a Future Officers fellowship believed in their calling and And who was they went there. They kind of they completely failed and any Christian obligation, let alone a human obligation to ask if I was right. And then I ended up being in this really isolation, isolated relationship for three years with a saving grace with university in the woman's room. So you were with a woman during that time. So by the end of 85 the [00:12:30] woman who I was seeing at the refuge in my hometown moved to Wellington also and continued the relationship with me. And then I went to university and I found a woman's room, and I was like, I didn't know people could dress differently or they were allowed to. I was that naive. And then, of course, in 1986 they had the big celebration in the town hall. So I ended up going to the town hall, and I remember when I'm 20 not quite 21 and standing up the top of town hall and looking down over this weirdest [00:13:00] mob of people I've ever seen in my life. Remember, I'm used to Salvation Army uniform and school uniform, and I think the most disturbing characters to me were the gay men and the leather chaps. That's wonderful. Oh, well, it is now. But you know, when you're 20 you've never seen anything like that in your life. And they had their leather caps on and their chains and and I was just goggle eyed like Oh, my God, what is this? And so suddenly my whole world exploded, actually. But But but But going from [00:13:30] 85 taking the petition around 86 to being out living in a lesbian relationship I, I went to a couple of conferences. I remember two significant points of my coming out as lesbian. One was going to a, uh, lesbian engaged in education conference, and they headed up at Victoria. So it was really, um uh, there was some upset around the academic setting of having such a a conference there, and the the lesbian facilitators separated us out into gay male [00:14:00] lesbian right and then they asked us to separate it into working class middle class. Now I was so naive. I put myself in the middle class lesbian group to talk about class, racism, gender issues. I mean, I don't know what the hell it hit me. Um, I thought I was middle class because I'd gone to university and had a little bit of money to do that, Um, which was nothing about that at all. So that was the first I learned about working class. And then later on in the year, another [00:14:30] conference that was held up at Wellington Polytech and my partner and I at the time had two boy Children and they were offering childcare. And I remember turning up with the boy Children and, um, me. And when I was just flopping out that not thinking about they were going to be providing K. But what was so amazing about that workshop was sitting next to me was a young Maori woman who said, You know, I'm young, I'm a lesbian and I'm black and I'm at the lowest, [00:15:00] and I'd never been exposed to any such thinking like that. I'm in my first year of sociology. So? So I. I got to meet lesbians that weren't all stereotypical or oh, like the Salvation Army said they were. And then all of all, around that period of 86 88 when it became more and I started researching sociologically and getting a research brain and understanding that the Army itself, the Salvation Army, was very split [00:15:30] and that it was a core group of six men higher up in the office who announced to the people what was happening. And there was a very big core group here in Wellington who said No, we don't agree with the Army doing this petition. Did you do any thing yourself to challenge the Army? Um, later, later, when I started writing about it and then, um, as I got into the workforce, I remember, You know, when I go on training things, there'd be [00:16:00] Army people. Um, I remember working for an agency and NGO, um that got together with the Salvation Army to do some Christmas carols, and I knew that particular branch of the Army didn't allow women in their band. And I said to my manager, I'm only partaking in the Christmas carols with the Salvation Army Band if I'm allowed to bring my corner. And I turned up in my black, you know, my leather riding gear and played by corner with the male only. So they show me band down on the streets of Wellington and deliberately [00:16:30] and I knew they were. They knew I was out. So this was 1989 90 So very early on. And I started writing stuff and and challenging it. And yeah, like, that's how I got to learn that not not everyone agreed with what had happened. How did you learn that? Were you interviewing people? Well, I just stopped talking to people who I was working with, like we might be in a class together, doing some social service training, and and I'd generally say something like, You know, I left the Army because of, you know, I'd come out about that, [00:17:00] and I had I had one guy I remember coming up to my door in Christchurch when I lived in Christchurch for a couple of years knocking on my door and I opened the door and he looked at me and he said, I guess you're not giving me anything. He knew me. I said, No, I'm not. But would you like a cup of tea? Because it's bloody exhausting work running around the streets, sleeping, you know? And so and so that person. And I think where I got to a few years ago when I read some of the rain, though Wellington stuff that the Army, while not apologised, has made a move towards some reconciliation [00:17:30] in. And this is where they got it very, very wrong in separating out the moral issue in the policy and the legal issues. So what they weren't getting was that this was a move to decriminalise homosexual acts, not a move to legal legalise it. There was something wrong in that. But then there was also the policy level and that the Army have every right actually to have their moral stance. You know, if a [00:18:00] church wants to hold a moral stance like that, Um, but policy wise, they did it very, very bad. The whole process and I, they have apologised for process issues, which for some, is not enough. But I for me opens up dialogue, and I know I've I've got friends who are gay who have stayed in the Salvation Army, who you work in the gay Christian networks and have talked to me about when I come back, You know, if things moved [00:18:30] enough, Um, and I belong to a couple of intentional communities online from all around the world of people who have stayed in the Army, um, or or have left but identify as non heteronormative. Whatever that means wasn't around when I came out. Um, I've spoken to some other people who are activists during those years 85 86. And they there's, [00:19:00] um, some stories about standing outside the citadel in, um in Wellington, Salvation Army Citadel and and singing and, um, book of protesting There. Were you ever part of that I? I was still in the Salvation Army, so I was still attending the cop, but I was attending Wellington South, so But I knew about this activism, and I didn't know that word then so that, you know, I knew there was stuff happening. But by by then I I'd crossed over into this [00:19:30] university world where I met Alison Laurie and Prue Hyman and Judith Dale, who were these extraordinary lesbian feminist academics and I. I took to, um, university work like duck water. Seriously, it was it was just, like coming home. So at the end of the first year, I, um, 86 I had to do a small research paper for sociology to show show. I understood methodology, and I did a qualitative survey of, uh, where [00:20:00] I interviewed, um, Prue, Heman, and Alison Laurie and the student Council at that time. And my research was defining homophobia and defining heteros, which was huge. So this is the end of 86. I've just been to the town hall and seen all these weird and wonderful people and and also started to meet people who are not like my partner who who was violent. And it wasn't a lot later. So I worked out to the professional abuse component of all of that. So here I am in my early twenties, [00:20:30] um, in a in A in a classical, Stereotypical. This is the relationship you should have avoided. The Salvation Army is telling you so, um, without the Salvation Army and without Christianity. Because that all went through my twenties. There was nothing left. And my and my mother and father, you know, we don't talk about it. And it wasn't until I left that relationship in 1988 I rang mum and dad to say I had moved house and there were [00:21:00] some few words of wisdom. One for my mother was Don't tell your father you've broken up and I was like, Oh, she knows. And, um and my father got on the phone and said, You be careful living in So a bit of racism of the, you know, and or have you had a fight with her, You know, so knowing then that they knew that there wasn't words there in 87 88 and so it was easy for me when I next I met someone else my own age. That's when I met you. Actually, [00:21:30] Jack and I was going out with a woman my own age slightly a little bit younger, buying motorbikes, doing things that young people should be doing instead of being responsible for three teenage Children and a and a woman who professionally abused me and I had to recover from that. So So my coming out is in waves, but it's kind of come full circle when I look back over the Salvation Army, Um, era. Um, just recently in London, in London they had their 150 years celebration [00:22:00] and a group of LBQT I and Allied people and the army took the red shield, which is the a symbol of the Salvation Army. And and and, uh, got rainbow ones made. And there was only about 100 of them made and, uh, two friends of mine, one who was Salvation Army here bought one up to me on my 50th birthday and gave it to me on the deck. And I've got that sitting pride of joy on my little alter. This little red shield, which is a rainbow shield, [00:22:30] is that because the Salvation Army in the UK have a chapter or I think they have, it's different in the UK to the US. They're very different structures. Um, I just think there's more and more people coming through in our generation saying, You know, that was all wrong, and there's there's no problem. And so there's a real focus on not so much the law of you can't be, but the focus of the gospel message, which is love and inclusiveness. [00:23:00] And if you keep the gospel as simple as that Then then you've got a basis to deal with right wing homophobia and extremism. So you can you can join in with the progressive Christian movement or the Progressive Interfaith Movement, which there are whole groups of nationalists doing that here in New Zealand here in the UK. And here in the US. So a little group in the UK I mean, those little badges. I saw them coming through on Facebook, and I was just dying for one, you know, like it was the ultimate symbol and some kind of [00:23:30] acceptance at some level. Um, but there's there's a lot of work to do in the Army. I could never go back. Um, not after what happened. Um, and that's not where my Christianity lies, either. I have a much more progressive, um, postmodern probably, uh, view than the Army do. They're too conservative. Uh, so so it's been a full circle. I remember someone interviewing me in 1987 for one of the sociology religion projects and [00:24:00] me talking like this about what that was like and it was still in a place of a lot of hurt, But what I've seen happen in the last five years is much more dialogue. Um, between groups, not just individuals within the church, the church, but also, um, some gay groups with some church groups and a move away from that really extraordinary time in the mid eighties [00:24:30] where we had, you know, Fran Wild and, um, when the petition was presented, and all the right wing seeing God of nations. And do you remember when that was happening? How you were at that time, how you felt about that? I was intrigued. I was absolutely politically intrigued. I see, because I'd come through 1981 as a performer. So I'd known about protest, and I knew where I stood on a Springbok tour [00:25:00] and I was wanted. The Springbok tour stopped, which was a really unusual position to have taken in my family, but also within the church because they were all ugly mad. So I'd already experienced being on the outer of that. And in 1986 5, when I was taking petition around and I didn't take it around anymore after that person challenged me six signatures and and a rejection, I was It was a shock to me that people had different [00:25:30] opinions. I know that. Well, I learned it very quickly, and so maybe there was something wrong about that. Did you? Did you go back and challenge anyone around there at the time? Like I can? Not quite. Oh, absolutely not. Not at the time, because it was I. I take a while to kind of put it all together and benefit of hindsight now, But certainly when broke up with me, Um, he went off to university and he did all these gay things and I'd still go down there and stay with that cohort of friends because we were all [00:26:00] at school together and it and it never worried me that he was. And I and I think I think we were probably quite more liberal in my family than I thought we were because there was no overt or covert, um, anti gay stuff. I don't think in the family. I mean, there was always that stuff around mucking, paedophilia and I. I think the thing about homosexual reform when I look back over it now, there were there was a lot of gay male visibility [00:26:30] and there was one final straw that happened in my family. We celebrated 20th birthday. So I'm 20 in 1985 September and I hired the Salvation Army Hall, um, to have my 20th, which was going to be a mixture of Christian and Non-christian and a number of my non-christian people turned up not knowing that it wasn't OK to bring alcohol. I hadn't specifically said that. I just assumed, you know, Salvation Army. You don't bring alcohol into the hall. And there was some big upset [00:27:00] like the youth group leaders. Absolutely dis designed me. And one of them went off to ring the cop Sergeant Major. And when she came back, I said, Well, how did she get on? And she said, Well, he said, because you're not an Army family, Um and it's an outside thing, so it doesn't matter. It's OK. They can have their alcohol here. And she was obviously, really piss off. But what happened was suddenly there was a lot of noise and upset outside, and I thought, What's going on? I went outside. I found out later it was a gay group from Nelson, [00:27:30] came over and spray painted homosexual homosexuals rule or homosexuals rock or something right across the back of the Salvation Army on the night I'm having my 20th birthday party. Right. So get this I. I was kind of appalled that anyone could do such a thing because I didn't know people were allowed to do graffiti then either. So I remember going outside and I remember I was still a good Salvation Army girl and say, Oh, you know, I sort of like you fucking bastards. How dare they, you know, feigning outrage [00:28:00] at this. Well, the letters that came to me later weren't about, you know, not being supportive of gay people or, you know, not being shocked about the graffiti or not about the alcohol being walked to my party. But it was the fact that I said, Fuck, you know, where was the love of that? I had to love those people from Nelson that had, you know, gay people who had come over and spray. And I mean, how deliciously ironic is that to have happened. And that kind of dear is demarcation [00:28:30] point. That's the September 1985. Done the petition. I've done the engagement. The engagement is over because he's run off. You know, done. Whatever. Um, I'm hanging in my the skin of my teeth in the army, and suddenly that's the last straw. You know, I'm not showing enough love, and I'm hanging around with bloody lesbians and, um, you know, and I remember getting phone calls for ages in my first year at university in 86 from people in the army, you know, we've [00:29:00] got you on a prayer chain and, you know, but they'd never say the word. They were praying for you praying very hard for me. But there was no mention of the word because you were I couldn't get that word out. But, you know, I'd get these random phone calls in o'clock Saturday morning and I'd be in bed with my partner, and they're like, You know, we're really worried about your soul and Marie and I and like, I mean, I feel like it's kind of got that hilarious side, but it's got that sad side as well. Of had they known how to talk to you, Some [00:29:30] a young person coming out, I wouldn't have got on to the shit that I got into in those first three years. Those first three or four years. So So it was a period of extremes to me, and I and I, um, I really value still value my Salvation Army connections very much. Um, I've got Salvation Army friends of my age who have come right around, and they're thinking, um, I've got some young people who were about three or four when I was [00:30:00] a teenager, and so when I left at 20 they would have been four or five. They are in their thirties now. They've contacted me by Facebook and said we would hope nothing like that would ever happen again. So it's like the next generation are apologising, and I think that's extraordinarily powerful stuff that we can dialogue. So that's my coming out, and that's my salvation. I've still got my bonnet, Um, my three ribbons that were on my timber timber in the Salvation Army. You have red, yellow and blue red for the blood [00:30:30] of Christ. I think blues for the purity and yellows for the fire, and I took my three ribbons. My Tim, Tam and Tim went to women's studies department at Vic, Um, when I left and the I wrote names of my ancestors, women, ancestors and myself, and I sold them to the rape crisis, cloak lovely.

IRN: 959
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089691
TITLE: Wellington waterfront walk tour
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VOICES: Roger Smith
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Wellington; walk tour; walking
DATE: 2 January 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: We begin this walk tour at Carmen Rue La, a cabaret nightclub on the corner of Harris and Victoria streets. Today, the balcony has been replaced by a corner of Wellington City Library. In the early 19 seventies, Donna de Milo worked at the cabaret as a waitress, and in this recording she recalled some of the entertainment that was on offer. Carmen's was never advertised as a drag show ever. It was a cabaret. It got out that [00:00:30] there were queens that worked there, but no one ever knew who it was. And it was so funny being a waitress because I used to hear it and they go and there was one girl and she used to turn the turn the strobe lights on. And because she had saggy boobs, she had about five kids, and she used to do, um, Tasseling with her boobs. One go one way and one the other go together, up and down all around. And of course, they used to say, There's one. That's one. And they used to pick all the real girls as being the drags they never knew. You [00:01:00] know, um, we used to have sailors from all around the world come in. And they said that New Zealand had the best drags they'd ever seen in their lives because a lot of Maori girls, you see and they're very unspin all those Maori girls, and they just couldn't believe all the girls and how glamorous we were. Follow the walkway up the side of the public library. Keep going until you're looking into the centre of Civic Square. To your right, you'll see City Gallery, formerly the public library, to [00:01:30] your left. You'll see the Wellington Town Hall. Civic Square. Civic Square has been the location for a number of large rainbow gatherings, particularly out in the Square, an annual Rainbow Fair, which began in Newtown in 1986 and moved to Civic Square in 2008. The location was also a focal point for the second Asia Pacific Out Games in 2011 and a rally for marriage Equality in 2012 from Civic Square. The Equality [00:02:00] Rally moved through the city and ended up at Parliament, and this recording participants share their thoughts. My name is Brodie Packer, and I'm very, very for the bill. It's just, you know, a basic human equal right. My name is Josh, and I think that it is an extremely necessary step to the future of properly cutting out homophobia. Hi, my name is Cassie, and I am in support of the bill because I think that is one really important step in gaining fuller quality for people. I'm Yeah, and I think it's fantastic. [00:02:30] I'm a lesbian and I guess it kind of just makes sense, like in terms of not being discriminated against for something that is not wrong or not in your control in any way. And it just I know. I think it's just time. It's time for us to move forward. 68, 82468 Not this City gallery. [00:03:00] In 1995 the gallery hosted a controversial retrospective of US photographer Robert Mapplethorpe, which was seen by 45,000 people the same year the gallery hosted an exhibition of Pierre, which carried a censor warning in the mid 19 eighties when the building was part of the public library. A lower ground floor auditorium was used for community meetings to discuss homosexual law reform. In this recording, Rod McLeod Morrison recounts one of those meetings we had [00:03:30] the chief of police and a bishop or two and a couple of MP S, and it was very full and all of these people were getting up and saying If you don't vote for the bill, we're going to vote you out of office. If you don't do this, we're going to say this, So make certain you don't get your job back again And I got rather annoyed with all of this and stood up and said that we had to stop threatening that we won't get anywhere threatening people and demanding people. But we had to educate people [00:04:00] that we had to spend time to educate people, that we were also people, that we also had feelings, that we also had emotions and that we also had principles and morals, the result of which, after a little speech like that, I got booed and asked to leave as I was negative to the cause of the homosexual law reform Wellington Town Hall. The town hall has hosted numerous [00:04:30] artistic, political and celebratory events to do with Rainbow communities. In 2011, the town hall was the hub venue for the second Asia Pacific Out Games and human rights conference. And in the mid 19 eighties, both anti and pro homosexual law reform meetings were held there. And this recording, Julie Glazner, recalls an anti homosexual law reform meeting in 1985. It was a rally which was organised by the anti gay um, forces. [00:05:00] So So we arrived there and on the stage where the speakers, they just stood up and said How revolting gays were that we caused AIDS, that, um, you know, it was disgusting, Um, filthy and perverted. Um, And so it was just really awful. And people were sitting and yelling, and I was sitting next to Maxine, and I just felt like we weren't actually doing it, so nobody was actually seeing us be gay if you know what I mean or be lesbian. So I said to Max, [00:05:30] Let's just let's have a kiss. So we just stood up and then we just really had a very big, long kiss, and it was just fantastic. There was a TV camera at the time, and they focused on us. Um, that's what we wanted. We wanted to have us at the forefront to have us as the focus of that meeting. not the vile things that they were saying. Turn around to face the harbour to your left. You'll [00:06:00] see the Green Lawn, the former site of circa Theatre and beyond that Harris Street, circa Theatre. The top twins performed here in 1983. Harvey Fierstein's Torch song trilogy was performed here in 1985 and Beautiful Thing in 1994. The theatre subsequently moved to the waterfront by Te Papa Harris Street. On a night in July 1975 a police officer questioned MP [00:06:30] Colin Moyle, who was lingering around a well known cruising spot in Harris Street. The incident eventually led to his resignation from Parliament. In this recording, former MP Marilyn Waring talks about the use of homosexuality as a political weapon. Peter Tapsell was addressing the Waikato Division of the Labour Party, and he got front page headlines by saying that the government's policy on women was being run by bar and lesbian. [00:07:00] When the Raglan electorate disappeared and altogether and I had to begin again and when the electorate, uh, and was challenged by four other men, their their main quote whenever they wrote those little paragraph about yourself. I have a normal family. So there was a lot about, you know, you could have a representative who had a normal family life on [00:07:30] the night the government fell in 1984 after Muldoon, it had quite a lot of brandy. He called me a perverted little liar. Walk towards the harbour over the bridge and down the left hand steps to Frank Kitts Park Lagoon. In the 19 nineties, the lagoon was the site for Beacons of Hope, a memorial ceremony for those who had died from AIDS related conditions. The memorial was based upon the annual International AIDS Candlelight Memorial, [00:08:00] a service that has been held since May 1983. In this recording, Bill Logan recalls the first memorial ceremony at the lagoon. Well, Richard Ben organised the first, and that was amazing because he made these huge beacons. Kerosene soaked on big poles. And they were. They were big and spectacular and bold. And [00:08:30] there's something about fire and very primal. I am. I wrote a list, Um, of the people I knew who died the first man I loved guys that I partied with, young man. I saw coming out people who lived in our house [00:09:00] and were our friends. I guess that it's difficult to know what effects these things have on you because you don't know what the alternative was. You don't know what life would have been. Walk into the waterfront and follow the harbour pathway towards the Museum of New Zealand Te Papa, you will find circa [00:09:30] theatre just before you get to Papa. The waterfront parade route has seen a number of rainbow related parades, including the Love Parade in 2016 and the Opening Parade in the second Asia Pacific Out Games and Human Rights Conference in 2011. In this recording, participants Han hi and Sumit board look forward to 30 years. I came out well over 30 odd years ago. Back then, it was in hiding. We would get raped, we get beaten and you'd have to [00:10:00] pass as a straight person wherever you went or get married. I'm hoping in 30 years time that my grandchildren, if any of them are, are gay or transgender or transitioning that they can turn around and say thanks, then at least you were brave enough to say that it was OK and at least you were brave enough to say that I'm OK for who I am and that you accepted me. Life is a joyful journey, and that joyful journey always has and will have obstacles. What is [00:10:30] important is a spirit to not be defeated by obstacles and to continue struggling. The opportunities that struggles provide to live a fulfilling life should not be missed. And we should tackle our obstacles head on and fight and survive, circa Theatre in 2014. The production Rita and Douglas was performed here by Jennifer Wood Leland and pianist Michael Houston. [00:11:00] It explored the complex relationship between composer Douglas Lilburn and painter Rita Angus a few years earlier. This was a venue for Cathy Downs's play The Case of Katherine Mansfield. In this recording, Alison Lowry reads from Mansfield's journal about her relationship with Edith Kathleen Bendall in June 19. 07. She writes about an episode with Edith Kathleen Bend at the Beach Holiday Cottage in Days Bay, she writes, I feel more powerfully all those so term sexual impulses with [00:11:30] her than I have with any men. I feel that to lie with my head on her breast is to feel what life can hold pillowed against her clinging to her hands her face against mine. I am a child, a woman and more than a half man. We lay down together still silently she every now and then pressing me to her, kissing me my head on her breasts, her hands around my body stroking me lovingly. What an experience! And when we returned to town, Small wondered that I could not sleep, but tossed to and fro and yearned [00:12:00] and realised 1000 things which had been obscure. Oh, Oscar, Am I peculiarly susceptible to sexual impulse? I must be, I suppose. But I rejoice now. Each time I see her, I want her to put her arms around me and hold me against her. I think she wants to too. But she is afraid and custom hedges her, and I feel we shall go away again. Te Papa. The Museum of New Zealand Te Papa holds numerous [00:12:30] rainbow related treasures, including the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt, which was gifted to the museum in 2012. The museum also has from rue the photographs of Brian Brake and an exhibition featuring homosexual law reform material and more. In this recording, Nicky, Eddie and Megan Butcher talk about Robin's panel on the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt. First and foremost, um, the little map there. Waiheke Island, which is in the Gulf [00:13:00] of New Zealand, is where he was born on the second of May 1958. So this year, he would have been held 4. 54 yesterday. And I was just having a discussion with Megan last night. Um, about Well, I wonder what he would have been as a four year old man. Um, but, you know, time stopped for him at 33 and that's how we remember him at the age of 33. So, um, and as a family, um, we loved him unconditionally. And, um, [00:13:30] every single day, he walks with us and this today, here at te Papa, and I'm feeling very honoured and very privileged, and he would so so want to be here. He would just yeah, really appreciate the many, many layers of history that that lay behind these panels. Um, human rights, the whole lot. You know, politics just so much lays behind these quilts for mom to say that he walks with us all the time. Literally. He does, because I actually had I've got a red ribbon tattooed on my leg [00:14:00] and a memo to Uncle Rob So which I had done a done a couple of years ago. So yeah, and now return to the waterfront and walk towards what was formerly the overseas passenger terminal. The terminal was the site of the first Devotion Dance Party in December 1991. Like hero in Auckland, devotion became a festival with parties, a parade and other activities celebrating rainbow diversity. The terminal has now been converted to apartments. [00:14:30] In this recording, Hamish Aladi talks about how the party got its name. We were all sitting around on Mark Harrison's bed in road, in the house out there, and and we were trying to figure a name for this event and because it was going to be by the ocean. Um, at the overseas terminal, we were trying to think of something that would rhyme off by the ocean. So then it became devotion by the ocean and then thank God, be dropped by the ocean, and it just became devotion, and it became devoted [00:15:00] to whatever it was that you wanted to be devoted to, so you could be devoted to hedonism or safe sex or love, you know? And it was really had a lovely, uh, spirit that kind of captivated the imagination of people, and they felt a part of anyway, um, it was a woman that one of them, you know what's going on. We're all the men, you know. We're all doing all the work. And I said, For goodness sake, haven't you realised they're all dead or they're dying? Our community leaders are dying, and it was very much a case. You know, everyone. [00:15:30] Our brightest, our most fabulous Had the virus from the overseas passenger terminal follow her street away from the harbour. This will take you alongside Waitangi Park and on to Oriental Parade. Waitangi Park. The inaugural out in the park was held here in 2016. The celebration grew out of the annual out in the square, which in turn grew out of the Lesbian and Gay Fair. First [00:16:00] held at Newtown School in 1986 during the homosexual law reform. A fair for a fair law in this recording, Georgina buyer addresses the 2015 fair which was held in Guney Street due to bad weather conditions at the park I never thought that I would see a day when we could come together as a community and share our fabulousness, uh, with our city and our country. And I am so proud and humble really [00:16:30] to have been one amongst many who fought the good fight to find us here, sharing who we are and being loved for it. I think, um, I, of course, have been fortunate enough to be a representative, not only of the but in parliament, but of our gay community and particularly our transgender community for me. And while we have substantially gained more rights than we thought we could [00:17:00] earn, uh, there is still some way to go, uh, for some of our sector of our community and we ask you to stand in solidarity with us as we continue. But more importantly, since we have been a country that has led the way in so many ways, uh, we need to help our brothers and sisters and others around the world who are not enjoying the freedoms and liberties that we enjoy here. Follow Oriental parade inland. Waitangi [00:17:30] Park will be on your right cross to the other side of the road at the Cable Street Traffic Island. Keep following Oriental Parade as it changes into Kent Terrace. Bat's Theatre. Betts Theatre has seen a variety of rainbow related productions, including Confessions of a Drag Queen Corner, 4 a. m. in Cuba, a play about the hate murder of Wellington teenager Jeff Whittington in 1999. And the Youth Collaborative Theatre piece that's so gay in 2012. [00:18:00] In this recording, participants of that so talk about their production. We've talked about having a a gift day at to share. These are and these are our stories and it's not to go. These are our stories. Listen, cry here, laugh there. Whatever you know, all we're doing is opening up our hearts and our minds and sharing that what we are gaining from this play is more what we're giving to everyone. Everyone else with this play. So we've all had a chance to share our stories [00:18:30] with each other, which gave us the opportunity to know each other better, understand each other better, and that's in turn what we're going to give to the audience these same stories in a more dramatised way. But the essence is still there, and it's just that we want people to know that we're out there, that there are queer youth who live through these experiences that we have directly opposite Batts Theatre is the Taj Mahal toilet, and on the other side of that [00:19:00] Downstage Theatre on Cambridge Terrace, you can cross the Downstage Theatre at the intersection of Bank Street and Kent Terrace. Taj Mahal Toilet. The public toilet opened in 1929 and was part of the regular beat for anonymous sex. The site is now a bar and restaurant. In this recording, Denny talks about police tactics used to entrap men. When I saw playing close policemen, they were either extremely shy gay [00:19:30] men. And of course, that's probable, too, but not very good at doing their, um, entrapment. They would send hunky men. They just didn't know how to behave. You could almost pick them because they'd play a little bit, but they wouldn't get a hard on. Now they also send young boys. I'm very fortunate, but young boys have never appealed to me. And so, um, I've left when there's been younger people with a police officer, how [00:20:00] far would they go to have to prove something um I think you would have had to have touched them or attempted to offer them oral sex or something. If you were seeing masturbating and actually came in a toilet. That was an arrestable offence. And I think they looked over the top, which always amused me. You know, I wonder how long they watched people before they decided. Oh, well, we've had enough for now. Downstage Theatre [00:20:30] Downstage Theatre has seen many rainbow related performances, including Angels in America, Shopping and Fucking Boys in the Band and locally created works Black Faggots, Drum Drag, Love Lock's Dream Run A Long Undressing and Mates and Lovers, Based on the Book by Chris Brickle. In this recording, playwright Ronald Rea Nelson and producer Aha Talk about experiencing homophobia during the production of mates and lovers. We were doing publicity photo shoot. [00:21:00] Um, so we've been using a certain venue that I'm not gonna name Anyhow, the actors are passionately kissing, you know, undressing and stomp stomp out comes angry staff member who was not happy. And, you know, it was really interesting for me to witness. I know you hear about things like that where people are still hold on to their homophobic Oh, I. I thought it was a bit of a homophobic kind of job that she had that that's what really triggered it off. But it was really interesting to witness that to me, bringing it all back home. I mean, and it's like homosexuality is like an intellectual [00:21:30] thing. Yeah, they deserve equal rights. And yeah, they deserve to have civil unions and they deserve that. But if just keep it up out of our face, we don't want to see that stuff like it's dirty. Or just do that in your bedroom kind of stuff, you know? And and everybody thinks we've won the battle. Everything's hunky dory and homo land. Well, it ain't. Kids are killing themselves. Left and right, uh, committing suicide. Kids are getting beat up in school. We face discrimination in ways that we're not even aware [00:22:00] of from Downstage Theatre. Turn to face Courtney Place and walk to the tripod sculpture. From there begin to walk along Courtney Place. You are now travelling back towards Civic Square, Paramount Theatre. The Paramount has hosted the mostly annual outtakes, a real queer film festival since the mid 19 nineties in 2015 the theatre premiered New Zealand's first lesbian Web series, Pot Luck, written and [00:22:30] directed by Ne Simons. In this recording, this Simons talks about stereotypes and film. I was so sick of watching stereotypical portrayals of lesbian that I didn't connect with. I didn't understand. I got frustrated with I got angry about sometimes you know, that that it almost paralysed me into writing my own lesbian characters because I was so scared of repeating, you know, kind of poor representations that I'd seen from other people. [00:23:00] And it is, um, one of the things that that I feel like I need to push, You know that I do. I try to push anyway in order to kind of get there, because otherwise you do get left with stereotypes. You get left with these people that are safe. You know, the part of the reasons that we see so many types is because they are safe, you know, they're a safe representation. They're an accepted representation of a certain kind of person or a certain kind of moment. Photos, Space Gallery photos [00:23:30] Space Gallery has exhibited a number of Rainbow artists, including photographers Mark Bey and Jack Lynch in 2015, Jack did a photographic essay entitled Butch On Butch. In this recording, Van Little, one of the participants talks about the language of identity. It's funny because I actually feel a bit like a fraud in terms of I don't know, that I identify as Butch as such. And then and then I sort of have to think about is that kind of butch phobia? [00:24:00] Is that you know, like, where does what is that? Um, because when I came out, it was you had to be one or the other and if you were or you had to be fair. But, um, if you were, you were quite marginalised, actually, and there was a lot of crap that kind of went around women who did look straight. But I've always identified as a tomboy. I always and you know, there is a continuum. Um, so I'm kind of at the at the boyish end of it, and, [00:24:30] um, androgynous and tomboy and and I've always been attracted to masculine kind of women. Yeah, and then it makes me think about what is masculine. And, you know, we all have both, you know, and all different shades of of that stuff. So I thought, you know, it's it's good for me to to do this sort of stuff just to have more of a self exploration, I guess. Body positive. Drop in centre body positive A peer support organisation for people living with [00:25:00] HIV A. I DS established a Wellington Drop-in centre here in 2013, closing in 2015 just around the corner at 45 Tory Street. Now Chow was the location of the New Zealand AIDS Foundation's Athena Centre, which opened in August 1997. The centre is now located in Willis Street. In this recording, Kate Leslie, founding chair of the foundation, talks about the early years of AIDS in New Zealand. People were just so frightened and had [00:25:30] all sorts of fears and worries. And what was our task was to get the facts clearly and present them in a way that we could say No, this is People had noted that HIV was floating through the air or you were going to catch it from cups and saucers or shaking hands or the swimming pool or, um, food whatever in socially, uh, really [00:26:00] tragic times as well I can I can think of one funeral. Where was a young person had died and the whole funeral was addressed to Auntie and the sad loss of her nephew. And there was sitting the partner of 15, 20 years, um, totally ignored, never once mentioned, never acknowledged and so wrong and so awful and so bruising that this was with galvanising ourselves a bit more to, uh to We [00:26:30] have to do better than this. And now cross the Tory Street Courtney Place intersection and continue walking Saint James Theatre. The top twins, Douglas Wright and Michael, have all performed at the Saint James. The Theatre is also the home of the Royal New Zealand Ballet. One of its dancers, Warren Douglas, is remembered of the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt. In this recording from 1993 Nicky Eddie talks about the history of the quilt. [00:27:00] The quilt presents a human face behind the statistics, and the New Zealand initiative comes from the American Names Project, which was founded in 1985. Our first panel was created for a man called Peter KASPER and was displayed for the first time World AIDS Day for First of December 1988 in Wellington 1988. Now what is the number of quilts that you have now here in New Zealand? 72 panels That represents 128 [00:27:30] names of people we have lost to AIDS here in New Zealand. What what motivates people to do. A panel to make a panel to make a panel is a statement of unconditional love. It puts a human face behind the statistics of AIDS here in New Zealand or internationally. New Zealand is one of 27 initiatives around the world for quilt projects. Now just beyond the Saint James Theatre is the Courtney Place men's Toilet. Built in 1911 [00:28:00] the underground public toilet was part of the regular beat for anonymous sex. The toilet had two sets of stairs, which led from the street level down to a number of cubicles. The site is now part of a pizzeria, and this recording Denny talks about being arrested in the toilet in the 19 seventies. It was a freezing cold night, absolutely freezing cold, But I had removed my trousers and left them in the car. So, in fact I only had the coach and the mid drift top on. I was [00:28:30] arrested. The charge was, um, allowing someone to perform an indecent act on me. And I was questioned and questioned and questioned because they wanted to know who I was with, and I had no idea of his name. And of course, he was also being questioned at the same time. Did we know others? Was that a place to go? Those were the types of things. Of course they knew that there was. That's why they arrested us There. Was that quite common for police to that? [00:29:00] Yeah. I thought I'd been set up by this other man, but no, he was also caught. But we were then separated, and I don't ever remember seeing him again. Now cross the Taranaki Street Courtney Place intersection and walk into a park. The park has been the gathering point for many rallies and protests. In the mid 19 eighties, it was the scene for a large pro homosexual law reform rally. In this recording, Glenda Gale talks about speaking to the crowd. [00:29:30] There was a big march, and, uh, I in fact, spoke at the end of that. It was a march that went right through the city and ended up at Pigeon Park. And there were thousands of people there. And I did speak around this whole thing of freedom of, um, you know, having the right to be who we are. I mean, I think the whole thing that sometimes people don't understand or don't remember that sure, the legalisation of male homosexuality was very important. But there was also this human rights aspect [00:30:00] because leading up to those times, people were afraid. And I can remember being really afraid like when you went to get a flat, you know? Did you look too queer? What would they say? You know how and when you heard people. I think the thing that I found really quite tormenting was when you heard some of these absolutely horrendous things that were said about us things like, You know, these people should go back to the gutter where they belong or gay people should be killed. Now these are extreme views. But when you hear them, I mean [00:30:30] it either probably makes some people run away. But for others, it makes makes us angry. Directly opposite to Arrow Park is the opera house Ellie Jack Bo's opera about Ruy Ellie premiered at the Opera House in 1998. The theatre has also hosted the Queen of the Whole Universe in 2011, a slightly queer beauty pageant and this recording visit the queen of the whole universe makeup room Because there's such a large crew 35 [00:31:00] drag queens, to be exact, we do the makeup progressively, so in the room we have brow block stations. We've got a base station and then you go through and have your cheeks and lips done. And then you come to the last section, which is eyes and brows. 35 drag queens. How long does that take? Well, we've got three hours and there's other things thrown on top of us as well. We've got muscle boys to do up. We've got Cleopatra. We've got somebody that needs to be made really dark. So yeah, it's [00:31:30] not just standard makeup. It's so funny. Um, I originally was going to be an Act two girl this year, and I was going to be Miss Candyland. Hey, y'all. My name's canny KKK. Lick your lollipop. I'm gonna make you call my friends in Texas and just say what you just said and I'm gonna hang up and not explain it. As we begin to wrap up this tour walk from the opera house towards [00:32:00] Lower Cuba Street, Lower Cuba Street has seen a number of rainbow related events. In the mid 19 eighties, there was a pro homosexual law reform march, and in 2015, the Love Parade marched from Civic Square to Guney Street, and this recording an onlooker to the Love Parade, reflects on her own family experience. My daughter's gay, but my son is very anti gay. He's claims to be a Christian, and so it [00:32:30] was really interesting at a few years ago when they were doing that march and my daughter and her friends were watching from a house and she said it was quite frightening all the hate that was out there. But it has changed, you know? I mean, when she was just a kid, long before she recognised that she was gay, or long before I recognised that she was gay, girls would bash her up. She'd be 12, you know, it was just horrific, [00:33:00] But the worst damage that has ever been done to my daughter has been done by her own family. So, you know, I just hope that when these people's families can see the solidarity that they're, they're they're not hurting anybody. They're just being they're just being that maybe they'll come to an acceptance. No. Yeah. [00:33:30] Lower Cuba Street is a shared pedestrian and car area. Walk to the Michael Fowler Centre at the end of the street next to the town hall. The Michael Fowler Centre is our last tour location. It's the home venue of the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra. Audiences have heard performances from New Zealand composers such as Douglas Lilburn, Claire Cohen, Gareth Farr, John Elmley, Samuel Holloway, Alex Taylor and Jack Bo. In this recording, Jack Bo reflects on Carmen Rupe during the [00:34:00] writing of the Symphonic Songs of Dancers and Desire in Carmen Rue. What struck me when reading Carmen's book is the fearlessness of it that that we especially in a in in generations when it was illegal, to to indulge in sex with the same gender, of course, one had to be secretive. It it was very exciting, of course, and it made the the chase and the the triumph even more delicious. But the fact is that one [00:34:30] could be entrapped, one could go to prison and III I met people who had had, um, aversion therapy, you know, making you vomit at the thought of of, of having sex with your own kind or, um, shock treatment. I mean, these things happened in those days. So this is the world that that Carmen grew up and and look what she did. She said, I'm here and I'm me and like it or lump it and and totally brazen Fearless. The [00:35:00] lesson that we learned from her that, you know, we've got one life and the worst thing we can do is is to have fears and anxieties that we have to embrace life and be who we are. And so ends this walk tour, thanks to all the people who've contributed to pride NZ dot com and thank you for taking the tour.

IRN: 960
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/elizabeth_kerekere_homosexual_law_reform.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004396
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089690
TITLE: Elizabeth Kerekere - homosexual law reform
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Elizabeth Kerekere
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 1980s; Alison Laurie; Alofa Aiono; Amazons Softball Club (Wellington); Aotearoa New Zealand; Audre Lorde; Black Women's movement; Coalition in Support of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill; Destiny Church; Doctor of Philosophy degree (PhD); Donna Awatere Huata; Dunedin; Elizabeth Kerekere; Enough is Enough (2004, Destiny Church rally); Eti Laufiso; Gisborne; HIV / AIDS; Heta Timu; Hinemoana Baker; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); KAHA Youth Hui (2007); KAHA Youth Hui (2009); Kevin Haunui; Mana Takatāpui (art work); Maori Sovereignty (book); Marie Laufiso; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Member of Parliament; Mental Health Foundation; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; Māori; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Ngai Tamanuhiri; Ngāti Konohi; Out There! National Queer Youth Development Project; Palmerston North; Parliament buildings; Part of the Whanau: The Emergence of Takatāpui Identity (thesis); Peri Te Wao; Pip Laufiso; Rainbow Caucus (Parliament); Rainbow Pride Community Honours (Wellington); Rainbow Youth; Rongowhakaata; Tairawhiti; Takatāpui: part of the whanau (booklet); Te Aitanga a Mahaki; Tillie Laufiso; Tim Barnett; Tiriti o Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi; Toihoukura (Gisborne); Treaty relations; Tīwhanawhana; United States of America; Waka Hourua; Wellington; Whanau a Kai; Young Pacifica; academia; academics; acceptance; actions; activism; advice; allies; ancestors; anti-nuclear movement; artist; arts; biculturalism; biphobia; cars; carving; children; church; cisgender; civil unions; colonisation; conference; connect; conversation; culture; depression; disconnection; discrimination; elders; energy; femme; funding; gender fluid; gender identity; gestetner; government; grief; homophobia; homophobic bullying; homosexual law reform; honour; honours; housing; hui; identity; intersectionality; iwi; kapa haka; kaupapa; law; leadership; leafleting; lesbian feminism; mana; marae; march; marriage; marriage equality; mental health; mentalhealth. org. nz; mentor; museums; national rainbow strategy; nuclear free; photocopy; polarisation; politics; priorities; privilege; project management; prove heterosexuality; racism; reconnect; religion; resource; self employment; self harm; sexual orientation; softball; spirituality; sport; strategic development; suicide; suicide prevention; support; takatāpui; tapu; teachers college; teaching; tikanga; transphobia; travel; video; visual arts; wairua; weaving; whakapapa; whānau; youth
DATE: 9 December 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Elizabeth reflects on her early activist years with the Black Women's movement, homosexual law reform, the formation of Tiwhanawhana and the new resource booklet Takataapui: part of the whanau - a continuation of her support for diverse rainbow communities.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Elizabeth. I'm so pleased that we've been able to actually, um, managed to get you in Wellington and, uh, for an interview. It's It's been a while now, and I know you're so incredibly busy that it's it's sometimes hard to, um, to to actually be able to sit with you for a while. Um, Elizabeth, would you like to, um, just introduce yourselves? Oh, really pleased to be here, So I'm Elizabeth. I originally come from Gisborne. My tribes, [00:00:30] Uh, and I moved back home a few years ago after 20 years in Wellington. And I felt, too, if I was going to introduce myself. I always say, I'm I'm an artist and an activist. And I remember you from days when we were, um, playing softball. Yes. Or or I'm not sure if you are playing so much as managing the [00:01:00] team and and doing the stats and keeping us in order. Yes, and doing fundraising. So I know if we could have proper catchers gear, Elizabeth. This, um, interview is is being done for the homosexual law reform, uh, series for pride NZ dot com. Uh, around the sort of time of the early eighties or 85 86 where whereabouts were you. So I was, uh, back in Dunedin, where my mother is from and I was at Teachers College [00:01:30] at the time. I was involved in a lot of different political groups. In the early eighties, I was part of the black women's movement. We had a young black women's group, uh, mainly of Maori and Pacific uh, young people. I was also involved in another Maori women's group in the university, uh, Maori Maori Club. I was part of that before I started going to university, and I was part of a coalition then of political groups that would [00:02:00] work really closely together. So Maori pakeha Pacific Island with all sorts of different political viewpoints. And the real value for me was that model that said, we always looked at how we had similar interests and how we could work together rather than concentrating on what was different and, uh, and made it difficult to work. And so what we would do is is each of us would identify what were the key needs in our particular [00:02:30] areas and our particular interests, and then the other groups will come together to support so my role in the homosexual law reform I'd already been out for several years. I came out as a teenager. Uh, was we followed the lesbian and gay groups and individuals who pulled together the actions in Dunedin. So back in the day, we were letting, uh, we were standing on street corners talking to people. Uh, I was, uh, raising those kind of issues in the Maori communities that I [00:03:00] was in. And then when it came to the marches, then all of us will club together and bring in our networks to help support those actions. And so absolutely, we saw that what was happening around law reform and basic human rights was something that affected all of us, no matter how we identified. And so I think still to this day, that is how II I look at when I'm thinking around political action is always looking to how we connect, how we can work together, how we [00:03:30] can support, uh, the issues that affect us in different ways and also recognise that people need their own space. People need to be able to meet as Maori only as women only as lesbian or queer or as trans, uh, to have the space to a just the support just to be able to free to be to be yourself, to be free to be yourself. But also, um, to get that clear headspace, you need to do your own thinking and planning, but then for to be able [00:04:00] to come out to your allies and say right, this is the focus for this, and this is how we can move forward. And I think I still use that model today. That sounds sounds fantastic. It sounds very, um, sounds very constructive. We got a lot of work done. I I from a very young age. I just thought my life activism isn't a thing I do in my spare time. It is my life and everything I do folds into that. As I like to say, What do we get up for in the morning, if not to change the world? [00:04:30] Oh, I love it. I love it. Um, Elizabeth, when you say that you were talking with Maori communities around that time, can you recall, um, the sort of response you were getting from people? It was interesting. Now, when especially looking back from my point of view of working nationally and internationally around issues. Looking back in those kind of quite innocent conversations that we had back then because I was fortunate to come into a family [00:05:00] who were really, really supportive and or to be born into and to come out within. And and so I went around with that expectation that it's not acceptable to not accept your Children. And so when I'd sit down and talk with different people say at our, uh, at, um, the the groups that I was in so in, then we would look at it as a political issue. Uh, we would, uh and and I guess that's the other thing, too, is pitching it. You pitch things [00:05:30] differently to different audiences. So we look at it as a political human rights issue. Uh, in that case, well, it's very clear. Uh, but when we talked to people at the park or at um and now the social networks, and particularly older Maori, then we'd always look at it from a cultural point of view and and number one first, how can anybody reject their child? Uh, because of their sexual orientation or gender identity? Uh, it's just not acceptable. And [00:06:00] so when we have these So that was the first thing I came with that expectation and viewpoint. So when we had the conversations, it was interesting when people weren't sure or the church didn't make, um had really specific views against that. And, of course, we came into a time where churches were heavily organising against it. Uh, and the beauty, I guess, of being in a smaller centre was that I think the people [00:06:30] may be a bit more cohesive, a bit more connected. Uh, you couldn't just separate yourself out completely. You knew people who were in those communities. You knew their families and and so you couldn't entirely just say they're the other. They're the They're the ones who are going to objectify over there. You had to have a bit more analysis. So the kind of issues that we still hear from, um that that it's not natural that they're gonna get hurt, they're gonna die from AIDS. Uh, that, uh, people won't accept them. Therefore, [00:07:00] it's better if they don't say anything. And so we would just have conversations because it's not our place. Certainly not to tell our elders what to do in any, uh, environment. Uh, and just that I always had the feeling and and all the people that I was around that the number one This is your child and your job is to look after them. And so whether they were being really more polite because they were talking to me and they know all my [00:07:30] family as well. Uh, but I always found that being able to have a conversation where they could express their grief perhaps, uh, their their lack of understanding or just the real concerns without being told off For that point of view again, those are things I learned from the groups that I was working around, that we have a conversation that we don't tell people what to do. We we know people won't change. [00:08:00] We can't change people. They will change when they're ready to, uh, we can educate. We can talk. But what is the best thing? What does that person need? What environment can we set up? Uh, to make that happen. And certainly around homosexual law reform, there were a lot of Maori who are very, very divided around this and so on. One side they go. Yes, yes, I know it's our kid, or it's someone in our But my church says this. And so there was. But there were still heated discussions. Uh, there were Maori who are actively involved in churches. Really, Really, against this, [00:08:30] uh, but in the circles, in the political, um, realms that we're around and kind of the edges of that we had, we had a lot of support, so it it was never a clear cut. You can never say things like Maori don't support this or Maori all that as we can't do in any on any topic. Uh, we can. I think we can make categorical statements about what our culture represents. And so I always go for that. Like, if it's make that real. So So in a way, um, maybe [00:09:00] the homosexual law reform, um, the activities around the presented an opportunity to raise these issues in conversations it absolutely did. And that's the great thing about national actions. Uh, it really can really polarises people, Uh, and for me, I'm I'm really relaxed around polarities because I think if someone has a strong opinion on something, I really, really respect that because I know they care about things they, their opinion [00:09:30] and and the decisions decisions are important to them. So when you can have a really solid conversation around that, then if the person changes their mind or waves, then you know that you have the solid support. Then once they understand what's going on, some people just revolting. It's not gonna happen. But and then there's that group in between that say, I don't want to hurt anybody. I don't want to be seen to be really bad. But as long as no one asks me up front, I'm just gonna say nothing. So when you ask them and have that conversation, um, depending [00:10:00] on how they want to be seen in the world and whose approval its they most seek, then there's a real opportunity for them to actually start changing their mind. Um, and so definitely, absolutely. It's hard to raise these issues out of nowhere. And But when you've got something to kind of hang off going Oh, we're talking to people about this, you know? What do you think? What do you think we should do? So the black women's group that you're [00:10:30] involved in Can you tell me a little bit more about that? So it was called Young Pacifica. Uh, so we were teenagers when we set that up and we we called ourselves a black woman's group and as part of the black women's movement, which was really big in the early 19 eighties, and the use of the word black was a very conscious political term to align with the struggles that and what was happening over in the United States. And so as part of that, we were hosting a lot of people from from the states black [00:11:00] activists, um, lesbian feminists coming over. I got to meet people like Audrey Lord to hang out with which is highlight. And I don't think I've understood at the time how significant that was. Uh, but we got an opportunity to talk with people who are doing that work and also to learn how to be a good ally, Uh, rather than what do we think is the best thing to do for people who've got a completely different struggle? It's actually they tell us what they need from us, and that's [00:11:30] what we do. And that's a real, um, I. I think and being their ally, it's a letting go of ego and that actually accepting what someone else has expressed is what's important to them and what their needs and aspirations are and going with that, rather than what I think would be really good for them, what I think they should do, Uh, and just kind of letting it all go and because it's like, there's you can cannot stand up and say This is what we [00:12:00] need This is what, uh we want if you're not prepared to allow everyone else to stand up and do that on their own behalf And so that group, we did a lot of different actions. We support a lot of political movements as well, because we because we saw how things were connected. So we were supporting, uh, can the, uh against, uh, nuclear warships and our harbours? Because there was that was a really huge at the time. So in 84 when, [00:12:30] uh uh yes, David Lange made the, um, really brave and incredible stance to be nuclear free and and it's great when those stances are made, but we always have to be vigilant. Uh, that and that we all contribute to making sure that we can maintain that state of being. So when there was a threat of something coming and we were out there protesting about that and as I say back in the day we were doing, we still had access to, And then if we really flashed, someone [00:13:00] would be able to use their photocopier. Uh, we were handwriting and hand drawing leaflets. I think you might have to say what a is. Oh, seriously. They used to have them in schools, and you would do First, there's the multiple carbon copies. You would do that. And, uh, but you do one copy, and you put it through, and you had to, uh, roll a handle around. Honestly, I'm sure I'm trying to show you this by, but you can't see the charades that are going [00:13:30] on here that are clearly going to display what I'm talking about. But it, uh, yeah, it would print off a whole lot of cup copies and like, yeah, like multiple carbon copies. You had to turn a crack. Yeah, like a crank, a big wheel. And it smelled really, really nice when we were at school and we get them all the kids. I don't even know what the chemicals were, but we go. Oh, that smells so nice. And it would come up in really, really cool colours because [00:14:00] all the photocopy, all the carbon paper stuff was like blues and greens. So we always have these cool colours. Yeah, and it's like, Oh, photocopy is so boring. Uh, yes. So we would And, you know, we'd write strongly worded letters to people and we stood on the streets and we leaflet it and had conversations with people walking past very public way of protesting. And very and so we'd spend hours. Um, just having conversation right hand things out, talk [00:14:30] to people and, yeah, develop, try and develop relationships with other organisations So we could always so we could work together. Have those relationships stood. The test of time are certainly the women who were involved and our black women's group. We particularly the family. So Marie Pip and Tilly, I was really, really close to. I practically lived at their house. Their mother was [00:15:00] a mother to me. So shout out in the memory of and we we kind of grew up together politically. and certainly Pip and Marie were older than me. So they were already politically active. And I've been active in Maori things, but this we were quite talking. We're studying Maori sovereignty. When we were teenagers, Uh, we were talking about how does racism work? And in this environment, what does it mean for migrant people who are [00:15:30] resident in this country in terms of the treaty? So we're having hard out discussions, and we It wasn't always easy. It was certainly not always comfortable. Uh, there were times when we had to get told to just, like, settle down a little bit. Uh, but we were part of a radical community all doing different amazing things. So we got to learn about things for me that I wouldn't normally have have done. I was doing and I was doing [00:16:00] other things and being a nerd at school. But and you know, if you say, what are you going to do with your time? You wouldn't do all these millions of things. But you you still because of the way we worked and you knew what was happening with everybody else And we looked at ways. Where does it connect? with what we think. Uh, how can we support that as part of what we already do? It's not extra work when you work together. Well, it's not extra work to support anybody else's struggle that connects with yours. Hm. [00:16:30] You moved to Wellington around the late eighties? Yes. Did you go via? Looks like Well, I did my last year at Teachers College in Palmerston. I'll be close to Gisborne so I could go and spend more time with my great grandmother and family up there. Uh, but yes. In 89 I moved to Wellington. I was part of the te Papa project. I was in the museum development office. They called it the project office. So I helped design [00:17:00] Papa, which is pretty flash. I was 25 years old. Yeah, so So. But, you know, uh so when people we talk about working with young people and go, they're gonna be our future leaders. They are leaders right now, and they have been leaders of their own lives since they were born. And and we just need to support that the young people get on and do what they're doing. How do we They just need to let us know what we need to do. We need to use our brain. But coming back to this So yeah, that that comes because we were doing incredible [00:17:30] things when we were very young. We started, like, coming back to school. We started organising national when we were 18, and, uh, we we're meeting people from all over the country. We're talking about different things as part of Teachers College. When I started there, then I, um, formed a national network of Maori representatives on each of the teachers, college boards or committees in each of the colleges and and so wherever, Wherever we I was what we were doing, we'd start organising and bringing [00:18:00] people together. So when I moved to Wellington, uh, so it was wonderful to work on the project. It was a groundbreaking, the first bicultural museum in the world. And I was an institutional planner, Maori, and so I helped design. I work with engineers, architects and all that to design I part of my work was designing the spaces for the and the Maori Hall, and I designed the bicultural concept for the planting and helped do up the planting plan for the landscaping. [00:18:30] So and many, many years later, my partner and I got married. There I was. There you were there. You were 18. With the A team from. Well, I know it's you had different. I remember looking around the room and at the hundreds of people there, and I could see different groups of people that you had. And I remember when you were taking people to have a photo [00:19:00] with the both you and A that, um that the Amazons. That was kind of why I was there. I think, um, that we got up and had a photo with you. But there were plenty of other groups there, and I felt that was really It was It was so nice to see. See someone drawing on in so many parts of the world. Yeah. And I tell you what, the most political thing I've done in my life, it was the invitation list for that event. Oh, my God. Who's on? Who's Can everyone bring their partner? [00:19:30] Yeah, and I haven't even met them, right? We don't want to go there again. Yeah. No, no, that is I'm never doing that again. I'm sticking with the one I've got. But how amazing to you have, in fact, been involved in designing a space that you could then use it for such a special event. Yes. No, it was magic. It really was. And and because it was such a creative, it was also a very political process. The government was changing at the time, and so we're always on contract. We never knew [00:20:00] if the project would keep on going and what was gonna happen. So, uh, it was really dynamic. But I learned so much, and I got trained in many different aspects of museum life so that I could understand what the needs were and and work with different parts of, um yeah, the different parts of how the museum operates. But also, I'm an artist. I was My father was an artist and carver. I brought up doing art. And so I've been involved in galleries and museums for a long time. And so [00:20:30] it was crazy exciting for me to be able to be part of such a revolutionary, um, organisation and of course, is amazing. And you've got art in Parliament. Thank you. Um, yes, I have a piece. I did um, for my graduate exhibition I went to when I moved home to Gisborne at the Maori Art School. And, yes, that was my works. And I did [00:21:00] an exhibition the following year in Wellington, and it got seen actually by Tim Barnett and his partner, Ramon, and they recommended it be bought, purchased by Parliament. And that all happened. The Rainbow Caucus, um, got that together, and so it was purchased to commemorate the passing of the Marriage Amendment Act. So that's pretty exciting to know that something that's, um, hanging in parliament. Very cool. Very cool. And and in fact, I think [00:21:30] it it forms the cover of, um of your your booklet. Part of the That's just been released. Can you talk a little bit about that? OK, so this resource, after I finished my art degree, I was in the process of finishing it, and I was asked to I had been asked to do a PhD, uh, by Alison Laurie and and I had had no intention of doing [00:22:00] anything like that because I wanted to be a full time artist. That was the goal. Uh, so I could do my activist work around that and foolishly, and I wouldn't recommend anyone does this. But in my last year of art school, I started my PhD. How long ago was that? Let's see, It's coming up probably four years ago. Yeah, so 2000. So it was 2012. Yeah, As I was finishing the art degree, I started the PhD and it took [00:22:30] me a while to reduce down. Obviously, I wanted to do something around, uh, but I couldn't. It took me a long time to focus. I wanted to do 100 different things and and I reduced it. What? I felt down to nothing, but it Still. Actually, I cover a whole lot of different things. And so it's called The PhD is called part of the the emergence of identity. And as I continue to [00:23:00] do active activist work while doing the PhD, or there's just so many needs out there, people constantly asking me about these things written, of course, there's next to nothing written and and I was realising that the need is quite immediate and it wasn't And even when I finished the PhD, and it will eventually, um, get OK and then may be published that's a way down the track, and not everyone's going to read that. And even though it's I don't use heavily academic language, [00:23:30] even in that writing, it's still not really accessible at all. And so I thought this would be an ideal way to start getting out some of that information. Meet that constant need, uh, and kind of distil some of the guts of what I was trying to put across in that and the thesis into something that's more manageable. So this particular one was a collaboration with the Mental Health Foundation, and we did it I. I kind of borrow my [00:24:00] services as chair of So I set up around 2000 to So I found it to be a place for to come down, to provide a safe space for those of us who are from outside this tribal area but live and work in Wellington and so a place that we can come and bring all the parts of ourselves together to bring our cultural, our Maori sides to live our culture, be able to use our but also to provide a space for people who may be [00:24:30] strong in their sexual and gender identities but not really sure about the Maori side. And so this was a place where they could start to reconnect, that they could start to learn things and be around other Maori in a place that was really honouring their all all of their identities. And so and then a third aspect was that we would develop relationships around the community because I hate to say it, but there's discrimination and racism that exists in our broader rainbow communities, [00:25:00] and we wanted to address that. But we wanted to do it in a way that wasn't about Ra Ra Ra. You're a racist. Sort your shit out, Uh, that we wanted to do it like actually, you know, there's appropriate ways to behave. There's the appropriate use of. And I believe that we have over the years developed that to the extent that not much happens around Wellington without being involved being included, and that took years to set up to develop [00:25:30] those relationships and the key with that and again mirroring. How I came through in my politics is was always set up that it was open all its activities, our our ongoing group and any other event or things we're involved with is for the and friends. So anybody who feels comfortable in that space is welcome. But all the key decisions, major, uh, policy or strategy. Things are made by the board, and [00:26:00] at the moment, that comprises of myself, Kevin. And so he he tried to resign, I don't know, 56 years ago, but we kind of ignored him. But, um, yes, so So bringing all that forward to the resource, then, is whenever I do anything that's related to our rainbow communities, I do so, uh, as and so this is the first of the collaboration, and this is specifically it was funded through WAKA around suicide prevention. [00:26:30] Because we know all the statistics tell us that our rainbow young people and our rainbow people generally featured way too highly in all the negative stats around self harm, depression and sort of suicidality. And so I wanted something that spoke to about where comes from and to understand that from a cultural point of view that says this is not a foreign [00:27:00] thing. This is something that used to be the same sex. Both sex, attractive behaviour, gender fluidity was actually part of our culture. It was accepted behaviour back in the day prior to colonisation and that that interference and corruption of parts of our culture came about through colonisation. And when we have been taught to believe in lots of our that this is a foreign [00:27:30] thing and that is just not true. And so part of this is just saying, actually, we need to relearn some of this stuff. This is the truth around it. And also just to remind people of those basic, uh, again Maori culture about looking after our young people who might not understand, uh, and agree with everything they do. They're still your daughter, their brother, your sister, your child, uh, your cousin, your uncle, your auntie and [00:28:00] and those basic things around and the essence of who we are, we can't. We shouldn't be challenging those things because I make some big claims in here. I say that, uh, our, uh comes from our ancestors. I don't think many people would dispute that, but I say our sexuality and our gender comes as part of our therefore that comes from our ancestors, and we disrespect our ancestors. When we challenged [00:28:30] someone's own knowledge of who they are Because Maori we're all about identity. We are about our tribes. We are about our We're about our do not work with us Uh and actually that includes our sexuality and our gender. And so I try to just reposition the the discussion around it and because I say also, when you claim you already know that your gender or sexuality diverse and [00:29:00] so you're actually reclaiming your Maori self. So I absolutely position as a Maori identity because I I have issues with some of the the ways conversation happen around things like intersectionality because they say, OK, there's Maori here. Then there's lesbian and gay or queer. And I go, um actually, I'm going to talk maths. I would say an event diagram. We are actually squarely completely inside Maori because, as I always say, we have always [00:29:30] been here and that we should actually look at different kinds of inventory around it, like weaving like how we connect again, always how we connect and how we to strengthen our, uh to strengthen our people. We need to embrace all the members of it and we don't need to agree with everything we don't need to understand it again. In this resource, I have my top tip tips [00:30:00] and one of those for is you don't have to get it. You just have to be there and getting it will come over time. So how do how do people actually get hold of this resource? The quickest way is the resources available on PDF. Or you can ask for a hard copy from the Mental Health Foundation on their resource do mental health dot org dot NZ and it's coming up soon on [00:30:30] the website. Uh, that will be available, but there's also a film, uh, resource that comes with that. So you'd be encouraging to be reading this? Absolutely. I think it's a good introductory thing for anybody to read. It's the first of its kind. The only resources we've had prior to this have been specifically around sexual health and produced by AIDS Foundation. So this is the first that looks at and all of its aspects and the breadth of [00:31:00] all of our identities. Uh, so I think if if you're wanting what is what does it mean? How do I explain it then? This is the resource for you. Uh, when you're looking specifically around and some where struggles are happening, and it might. It's not necessary that hopefully it's gotten that bad that your child is suicidal because of it. But we just want to point out that lack of acceptance by is is so hurtful and [00:31:30] and so fundamentally damaging to the of any person. But to a Maori, it's It's so fundamental that that's something we need to avoid. We need to have the discussion before things get that bad. And so absolutely it was designed with in mind that you could say Ah, and my belief is when you can look at it as a Maori as Maori identity, then I think that clears out some of the issues, uh, that are going on. And then we're doing some follow up resources. Um, doing started [00:32:00] one with Rainbow Youth, a national organisation based in Auckland, Uh, where we're going to interview some young but also their parents and their grandparents so that elders and can speak to each other. Parents can speak to each other and young people to each other to say How do we create who are supportive of our of our youth and and again. It's It's a Maori base and it's base. It's treaty based, but I believe the message in that applies [00:32:30] to all of us from the people that you've quote within the resource. You have several, um, several folk that you've talked to as part of developing it, and they they get They get to have a A say, and um, can you talk to some of the people that have helped you, um, supported you in putting this together? OK, so we interviewed five different. We wanted to have a range of ages [00:33:00] and identities, and so we're our youngest. Well, now they're in their early thirties, but late late twenties when I first talked to them and I actually went back to the ones that I had interviewed for my PhD and and the eldest, Jennifer has just turned 65. So we've got a huge range and also a really wide range of tribal identities. I think the thing that comes through with the way that people talk [00:33:30] and you see it beautifully in the in the videos is we have an expectation of of acceptance that we ah, and and some of the quotes in here are magic. And because we're specifically talking about suicide prevention. For example, one of our people is Moana Baker. I love this, she says. I don't have an attitude of acceptance or tolerance. I have an attitude of celebration and gratitude for the things our [00:34:00] youth bring us. It's incredible. It's extraordinary. It's otherworldly. It's beyond artistic, intellectual, physical, psychological, spiritual, sexual. I don't believe we have any conception of what's being lost when our young people are lost and that again just magic. And then the other thing when I say that people have attitude. Uh, Jennifer who, uh, [00:34:30] lives and has lived her whole life as a woman. Uh, one of her things. She goes, Hm. My bits might not be right, but I know who what I am. Uh, but one of her things she goes, Some people would say to me, You can't come on the like this I'd say, Are you telling me what I can do in my get real? And so the thing that says actually, we do belong here. You should not be mucking with us, uh, discrimination, homophobia, biphobia transphobia [00:35:00] that is actually really, really anti Maori and and therefore very much folded in with racism, and actually, we're not having it. Sort it out. This is interesting, because earlier on when you're talking about your approaches in doing HLR Well, well, I think it sounds like it's, you know, at the bottom line. In fact, there's time for being [00:35:30] inclusive and nice with people. And then there are other times when you just have to say it. Yeah, and I think there's certain ways to say it. We'll always say Sort it out. Um, we'll help you sort it out. We'll give you support. We we commit to having relationships and maintaining that contact. Bottom line always, always is. Oh, yeah, you're sorting it out. So you're working a lot with young people at the moment? Yes, there [00:36:00] was a I've been self-employed, uh, for a long time, Nearly 15 years doing treaty work, treaty relations, strategic development and project management. Uh, because I just found it easier to do my activism work without a full time job, and but I needed to create some bits of income. Uh, so I find that normally all the income I make goes on travel, and I was actually offered a role without the youth development, which [00:36:30] I did in 2008, 2009 and we had already been involved in, uh, Queer Youth National was held in 2007 and had been invited to come along and do some training. I actually developed my first youth group guidelines for people to say OK, how do you make your groups more inclusive? Uh, what are things to think about in terms of treaty And so But by the time I had the role, then I was organ. I ended [00:37:00] up organising 09. And so through that we travelled nationally got to know all the youth groups, and I guess from that point then I maintained relationships with lots of young people, different groups. And I guess I mentor, um, particularly leaders of those groups. And when there's so few of us and and even though we can organise nationally and we can do things, there's not specific groups in every centre. [00:37:30] Uh, and we wanted to be a place that people could come get advice, not have it. There are no stupid questions. And to feel safe that we can talk about these treaty things talk about and how it applies in their group and their organisation, uh, and develop and maintain their relationship. So for them as individuals, as they're working out their leadership and and what that is they want to be and do in the world. Uh, but also as their organisations how do we model actual [00:38:00] treaty relationships? What does that mean when you come to work in every day? And so I've been Yeah, really excited to do that, to be around for that, Um, And again, if we're not I think my two favourite saints Yeah, if not to change the world, why do we get up? And, uh, if we're not going to look after our young people, what are we here for? Um, you were talking earlier about, uh, young people as [00:38:30] leaders. Um, and that's that's something that I agree with with, too. When When I when I see the amazing young people around who some other people talk kind of call them emerging leaders or, you know, they they'll be a great leader. One day they will take over when we leave. Leave off that kind of craziness because it's I actually know the leaders beside us. Uh, And I think at the honours, when we had the Wellington honours the first [00:39:00] ones that you helped organise and lead that in February of this of 2015. And yeah, someone had made that point earlier on that you'll take over from us, and it's like actually, we are all working together. They are doing their thing as we were doing when we were young. Uh, we're doing our thing. And so, uh, actually, our young people need to keep catching up with us. We we support what they do. They know what we're doing. So they support to the extent that they are, um, to do that. Uh, [00:39:30] I guess we just always need to remember our privilege that we have as we grow older. Um, most of us do know. Do remember what it was like getting crap at school, not being safe, holding your partner's hand as you walk down the street. Uh, we had those lives. Uh, but now we own cars. We can drive to where we need to go. Most of us have had jobs. Some of us own houses. We are way better off than we were. We've gone many of us will have had depression. Many of us [00:40:00] have thought about suicide. Uh, we've grown through that. We have survived and we have continued to build with this with increasingly much more massive and organised rainbow communities. Uh, and networks, we have got to where we are. It is absolutely incumbent upon us to be looking out for and using every inch of privilege that we have to be to be there for and even if it's just to be on the other end of the phone that [00:40:30] they say, Can I get this person just to talk to you? And I think they'll really relate. Uh, it's not about always going and joining a group and doing whatever. We absolutely must use every inch of inch of privilege to support what they are doing and help look after them. One of the things I say in here and I believe it and I try to live it is that we want to be part of a movement that honours our ancestors, respects our elders. We we work closely [00:41:00] with our peers and we look after our young people, and we've seen to do that. We vocalise that at every opportunity because know what? We went through crap when we were younger. Uh, but the the issues that are facing our young people right now, they are like nothing that we we we have face to face that global phenomenon of young people coming out when they're young. We did not. That was not what any of us grew up in. That is happening now, and we must be. We must be around for that. So this booklet [00:41:30] is almost, um it's almost like you've come in a circle from those days in the eighties when you're having the conversations with and so on, that because the homosexual law reform is out there. It kind of gave that opportunity to to have that platform have those conversations. And now you've got this resource and the ones that you're building from here that can get hold of fairly readily. Yes, yes. And it's very much about we start the conversation. We know that it needs [00:42:00] to happen. We know what's happening out there. Kids getting kicked out of their homes are not feeling safe in their churches and in their schools. It is so it's not acceptable. And we can't wait around for some magic thing to happen or magic focus. It was really interesting when we for civil unions, much more dramatic. That caused a lot of conversations, especially with the, um shall not be named much that so there were. It was a different [00:42:30] environment by that That kind of broke the ice significantly on the whole idea about the same partner. Um, legalised contracts, uh, to to the marriage known as marriage equality, uh, and people. It was interesting. I got interviewed a couple of times about how much has changed for in the last two years because of marriage equality. And I had to say, Well, two years, not much. Uh, and actually that's not the big thing. That's, uh, [00:43:00] considering it from my point of view, tinkering with and and adjusting from civil unions to marriage. Awesome for those that that that's really important. Absolutely fantastic. Uh, for for the mindset, the mindset got absolutely, you know, blown with civil unions. And so that that has been a process since then. The marriage equality did not happen in and of itself. If we started with that, which, of course, everyone knew we were not going to win and which is why you know, all of those things All the [00:43:30] politics that were around all of that and absolute shout out to all the people who worked on that because that had to happen. Uh, but that is not where the big struggle happens for, uh, and and so it's been an interesting thing. And this resource, I guess, in is saying, actually, this is some of the core things is that when our have difficulty accepting us because of our gender or sexuality, we start losing their connection to our culture to our, [00:44:00] um, and then to our and who we are. And this is so fundamental. You start losing that connection, you start losing the sense of who you are, and then your sexuality and gender becomes the most important thing. And you need to protect that and and it just creates more and more disconnection from culture. And that's that is a really, really serious thing. And we see the impacts of that, Uh and yeah, this is just a way of saying, actually, we can do this. We can sort this. [00:44:30] It does not need to get ugly. We can just uh, just get going with it. Think have a think about it. And so yeah, that's what you hope for. That was, uh, that will answer a lot of questions in their minds and make them realise things that they had never thought of. That's certainly what I hope for it. And, you know, I speak a lot of I speak a lot of conferences here and overseas. Uh, we can print out thousands of these little booklets, and they can be in people's homes that I may never [00:45:00] meet. But I really, really hope that it meets a need and that it uh yeah, it speaks to people to what they need to hear in that moment, and it helps. Have you had a response to it? Yet? All the responses I've had so far have been positive. Uh, we're about to do the proper press release. It will be picked up a bit more around the country like this week. So then there were a couple of things, and part of the reason why I actually put my name [00:45:30] on it is I think there will be things in there that will be controversial and having come into the academic world to do the PhD. I've started to recognise some stuff about ownership of ideas, and that's why I put my name on it. A lot of these things have not been said before and it's like, OK, it's actually Elizabeth's thoughts Elizabeth's ideas and Elizabeth's politics. So I put my name on it as it's a thing. It's like actually, that's my stuff. But also it's like I stand behind that and I'm really pleased that my organisation [00:46:00] with trust and the Mental Health Foundation are prepared to stand behind me as well. You know, I have to ask now what? What controversial things you're thinking of in there? OK, so I think that some people who maybe are a little bit religious are going to have a problem with the fact that I say that we all inherit our sexuality and gender from our ancestors and that it's part of our, uh, Some Maori leaders have been quoted nationally [00:46:30] as saying that we didn't exist before and I'm just reminding people that actually we did. There's a lot of evidence of that. There's not a lot of Maori narratives because we know things were removed and changed. We have evidence of that. But we absolutely, categorically did exist, uh, before colonisation absolutely before colonisation. And so there's some things like that where I'm not going to go on and know about it. It's just true. [00:47:00] So you have no evidence that it's false? I have evidence that it's true. So yeah, I'm just going to say so. I think those, uh, even things like I say, being does not foster depression and suicide discrimination does, because people will take statistics that say, Oh, look, if you're a rainbow young person, you're more likely to be this this, this and this. Actually, it's not being the Rainbow person that makes you that thing. It's the impact of all the crap that you get [00:47:30] that makes you sad that leads to depression. Self-harm, uh, one of the things I talk about I say that discrimination in the form of transphobia biphobia homophobia hurts all of our, uh, the pressure on, for example, um, young women to prove that they're heterosexual, that our young lesbian or same sex and both sex attracted girls have got high rates of unwanted pregnancy. Uh, those in and [00:48:00] unwanted sex, for that matter trying to prove something. Our boys trying to prove that they're macho, They're real men, real woman. And and so I think there's a lot of those kinds of things I don't imagine. It's a huge going to be a huge issue for some, but for some people it's going to be really significant. They're going to have a massive issue with that like that with a big bring it on, bring it on because we need to have the conversation. Elizabeth, [00:48:30] There's so many things that we could talk about looking at this this list and there's so many things I want to ask you about more, Um, but I think it's good to wrap up what we're talking about. I think, um, so is there anything that you you feel that you want to add? I. I guess I want to look going forward. I know a lot of us who have been involved in political things, so I've been an activist now for 35 years and so [00:49:00] I've read some things. I've been an absolute follower and others, and I've learned so much and worked with incredible people and moving forward, and I guess if we're thinking about this. The significance. It was a homosexual law. Reform here and overseas is what things do we need to look to the future to achieve. And so one of the things that I want to lead and drive, uh, through to is a national rainbow strategy that looks across all of these different sectors [00:49:30] around education, health, suicide, prevention, everything. We're involved with violence, but also the arts performance. All the things that we're we contribute to this world, Uh, that we say, right, What are the priorities? What are the priorities across our agendas and our sexualities across our cultural identities? What are the priorities for us And to blend that all together into a strategy? So when government finds little pockets of money, uh, or wants to do something that [00:50:00] we can actually say, You know what? These are the key priorities right now, and they could say, Hm, we'd rather fund this and we go. You know what? These are the priorities, as has been agreed by most groups in this country by people who do this work, uh, by the experts in this field. These are the priorities, and we work as a country towards creating all of that. And so for those who I am a suspended lesbian fe, I have a certain lived experience, [00:50:30] however, in a leadership role. And, um for I have to know what is going on for people across every other identity and as someone who works nationally in our country. And the way I want to always model is I need to know what's going on for other cultures and other people and in different fields, other than the ones that I particularly have knowledge. And and so I see that a strategy is one way that we can coordinate our effort across the country. But it's also a way that we can tap into [00:51:00] our elders and all of the amazing resource of people who were working for us years and years ago who aren't involved in organisations just no, we still value you. We we we honour the work that you have done, and maybe you might be available for a phone call every now and then, or if we're involved in something and your amazing expertise in this area come to a couple of and help teach all of us. Uh, those, I mean I just turned 50 this last month. Uh, so [00:51:30] it's great being when you're back in Gisborne and living there. So I'm still a generation younger than our eldest. So I can still hold on to that for a little while longer, even though there's, like, three or four after me already. Uh, but just a way of harnessing all of the energy and amazingness, uh, and skill and creativity that we have as a community have and across all of our communities, of course. Of course, there's not just one, and and [00:52:00] and but also some. It's really, really practical. So it says, Right, we've had these laws that have happened. What are other laws? Do we need to pass? And I'm looking at a 20 year plan. Uh, and so the young people in 20 years who aren't even born yet, uh, we need to be looking forward to say right, What's the next law? That absolutely must happen in this country for our people, for our communities. And if we have that as a clear priority, we need to know what policies we need to change and input into across [00:52:30] every single government department. I want to write that strategy. I want to lead that so that we I'll be in the next couple of years. I'm self funding this. And so we if money materialises to support that work awesome. Otherwise, um, we're just gonna go for it. Travel all over the country, talk to people. What what needs to happen? Uh, what are aspirations? And, of course, inside of that will be a national strategy, because will be hosting the next, [00:53:00] uh, in 2017. And so we'll lead through into that as well, because he's OK. So when people get someone, gets an interview, interview, and go, what are the priorities for your community? We can go. Let me tell you what the strategy says. Well, the the mapping of every single rainbow organisation and group in this country, this is what they say. Yeah, this is my personal opinion, but actually, this is what our people say. That [00:53:30] that's something I want to produce. I'm very excited about that. Excited about seeing that, um Thank you, Elizabeth. Thanks. Thanks for all the things that you you do.

IRN: 957
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/pot_luck_web_series.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004395
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089689
TITLE: Pot Luck web series
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ness Simons
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 2010s; Anji Kreft; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Emerging Artists Trust; Ness Simons; Nikki Si'ulepa; Pot Luck (web series); Robin Murphy; Tess Jamieson-Karaha; Wellington; acting; arts; boosted; butch; casting; comedy; community; creativity; crowd sourcing; directing; dyke; facebook. com; film; food; friends; hookups; internet; kaupapa; lesbian; love; potluck dinners; potluckwebseries. com; queer; relationships; screen writing; soft butch; twitter. com; vimeo. com; web series; women; writing; youtube. com
DATE: 29 November 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Ness Simons talks about writing and directing 'Pot Luck' - New Zealand's first lesbian web series. The series is produced by Robin Murphy, and can be seen here.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Yes, you've got an exciting week coming up and you've had a very busy few months. I understand in the film making industry, and, um, you're launching a Internet based film Web series. Can you tell us about that? Cool. So it's called Potluck, and it's a Web series that is, um, sit around three friends who make a pact at their potluck dinner, and then each episode plays out at a different potluck [00:00:30] dinner throughout the season. So it's, uh, six episodes we've just filmed Episode one, and we're madly putting that together to have a launch for, um in two days time, which I'm very excited about. Um, and so and once we've launched it, we it will be available online, and we are getting all the resources in place to film the rest of the series. And where would people find it online? Um, at WWW Potluck Web series dot com Now the the idea for the potluck [00:01:00] Web series? Where does that come from? And as a you know, someone who's been around the dyke communities for quite a while. Potluck certainly rings a bell. Um, can you talk to your inspiration for this? Uh, I guess it's the same for me. I've, you know, I've been around the communities for a long time. I've been to more than my fair share of, like, dinners and and, you know, over the last many years, and I think I I decided that a Web series was gonna be my next project and I'd been watching a few Web series. [00:01:30] And just like the idea of being able to create, create something that could essentially travel anywhere in the world, for starters but also could be freely available to an audience that I feel like often isn't really well served in mainstream media. And so I you know, I started thinking about a Web Series idea, and then I and I a lot of my stories and and stories that I'm interested in telling have queer characters kind of at the heart of it. And as a filmmaker, um, I am definitely interested [00:02:00] in exploring different aspects of the community. And so, um, I decided, you know, that I that I wanted to write a Web series. I then struck on the character of dibs who is a a kind of a shy, butch woman who I feel like any representations that I have seen of Butch on screen, uh, are often either really kind of TV safe, you know, quite sort of, um, soft butch or, you know, certainly really quite sharp. And in presentation and things like that, or else if if [00:02:30] you if I ever do see anyone that has a kind of butch staunchness, their character is almost always just aggressive in one line. You know, it's it's unusual to see butch characters that have any depth or complexity or, um, you know, kind of an exploration of the gentle, you know, side of their nature and things like that. And so So this character of Debs came along first, and and then I was thinking, OK, what am I going to do with her? And, um and I struck on this kind of friendship between her and her best mate meal and, um, and that they each, [00:03:00] you know, brought something to the table in terms of, um, what they offered each other. And they're very different characters. So Mel is quite, you know, vivacious and confident, and, um and so you know. So these two women have been each other's best friends for a really long time, and because of that, they, you know, always have each other's backs, and they always push each other forward. And so I kind of came up with the idea of the two of them in that relationship. And then I thought, I need to bring a third person in, which was Beth, who is, um, sort of, you know, really warm [00:03:30] and and, um and kind of lovely and and the kind of the heart to this friendship in terms of, you know, making everything, getting these guys together and and sharing food and things like that. And so and then the idea of food came into it for me because I think food is such an important part of culture and friendship and love. And so I thought, like dinners and, um yeah, so so and I started thinking about potluck, and then the more I thought about a potluck initially I was thinking about it as a kind of a one off and where that would lead to. And then I thought, Actually, there's quite a cool, [00:04:00] um, thing that can happen in a recurring potluck set up. And so in Episode one those three characters make a pact that then is going to play out at the potluck dinners for the rest of the episode. So right are we know what he does, or is it giving away too much? So, um, basically, Deb's character had her heart broken six years ago and has just kind of shut down on any kind of relationship with anyone ever since. And her best friend, Mel, is, uh, pretty smooth with the ladies, and, [00:04:30] um and so they kind of sit in polar opposites where Mel, you know, is hooking up with different people really regularly. And Debs is just quite shut down. And, um, and then Beth is Mel's kind of ex girlfriend. And, um so basically, the pact that gets laid down by Beth is that Mel has to keep her hands to herself until Debs gets her hands full. And, um and then Mel kind of put something a pact back on Beth that involves a discussion with to have with her mother. [00:05:00] So, um yeah, and so then that gets driven the whole way through the series, and it allows for a whole bunch of other characters to come in and shake things up. Have you written the full series? Yeah, I have. So I've written a couple of draughts of the full series. I'll be going back to probably do another run over everything before we shoot the rest of the series, So yeah. So how long have you been working on the project? Um, I was thinking about that. So I first started thinking about it over a year ago. Possibly even longer. [00:05:30] Um, but yes, I first started thinking about it a long time ago, and, um and I kind of I had some other projects going on, and it sort of, especially if you're writing, you can't afford to just have one thing. You know, you have to have a bunch of different projects going on at a time and because it takes so long to develop them. And so I had I had this idea and I and I sort of started off. A big part of the writing process Is that kind of initial marination? Sometimes, you know, it's the form forming it in my head, and and I had a couple of conversations with people about different things. And then, um, I'd [00:06:00] started, I'd work with Robin on another project that Rob. Um So Robin, Robin Murphy is the producer for potluck, and we'd worked together on another project, and at the time, I kind of thought that I might do a dramatic Web series. And so I guess we were kind of, um, checking each other out for that, you know, And and anyway, so, Robin, you know, really early stages. Um, I sent her the first draught of the first episode, and we kind of had a chat about where it might go from there and things like that. And then I wrote out, um, the first draught of the whole series [00:06:30] at the start of this year. And then from there, I kind of focused. I refined that whole draught a little bit and then, uh, focused on Episode one because we knew we were going to make that first. When when you were thinking about the characters. Were you thinking particular age groups? Were you kind of Did you have a quite a full idea of who these people were? I was, um yeah, I think you know, In addition to hardly ever seeing representations of lesbians on screen, there's actually [00:07:00] whole all kinds of characters that we hardly. But if we do get to see versions of them, their roles are often quite defined. And so I was really interested in looking at the stories of, you know, women in their thirties and forties and, um, that this wasn't, you know, about a bunch of, um, lesbian kind of teenagers. I feel like that is a market that is really well served and and not necessarily where I wanted to to, um, spend my time. And so, um and partly that's [00:07:30] probably my own kind of stage of life, but also just that. Actually, there's. There's all sorts of interesting things that happen in women's lives around that age and often those characters. When we do see them on screen, they're somebody's mother or wife or girlfriend and and not necessarily the story being about them in their own right. And so I was quite interested in having three women, um, who are in that age group and looking at kind of what what's going on in their lives. How did you go about casting for it casting. [00:08:00] So as a writer, I can, you know, put these words on the page, and it all sort of seems to make sense and everything like that. And then he comes casting. And so, um, I always knew that casting Debs was going to be a real challenge. Um, and it was it sort of essentially kind of put the project on hold for about four months longer than we had hoped, but that that's just how it works sometimes. Um, but so we we kind of had some initial, uh, auditions. [00:08:30] We had a number of people that we knew we wanted to approach already, and we did. And then we sent out info to casting agents and things like that with, um with character bios and a bit of an indication of what we're looking to. And then, um, we still weren't getting what we needed with Debs. And, um, and I'd always had a plan that I was gonna cast Debs first and then cast the other two depending because I had a really open age scale. I think I put I believe I put something like, um 30 [00:09:00] to 55 down for my kind of, um, character description, which is just I probably mess with the casting agents a little bit, you know? Yeah, Um, but the reason that I did that was because I you know, as much as I had Deb's character and Deb story in mind, I also knew that that was really open to being developed based on who we cast. And actually, what was most important was talking about us, you know, a kind of person and and looking at, um, finding that right kind of person to play the role. And so and we had [00:09:30] some fantastic people. You know, it There's an interesting thing that happens between having to switch from writing something to directing it. And, you know, as a writer, I've I've put my words down and I'm imagining how it is in my head. And then and then when you look at your options for casting and you start going, OK, well, this person brings this part of Debs, and this person brings this part of Debs. And so, um, we were kind of lucky in that we had some good options. Uh, yeah, it was a real challenge. So I ended up making a video [00:10:00] to kind of send out to, you know, Are you our Debs and just trying to throw the net really wide. We knew we got kind of one chance to lock off the casting, and so it was worth waiting. And it was worth holding the project up to make sure we got the right person. So and, um yeah, and then we we've cast Angie Rift, who brings amazing experience. A really great vibe is very different from Debs and as a person, um, and just has this kind of ability to, um, [00:10:30] you know, she brings a different depth than than I imagined as a writer, but she also brings some really cool stuff out in Debs that I hadn't realised was in there as well. So which is pretty cool. Cool. And Angie, um, I've known Angie from when she was living in Wellington. I think she's in Auckland now. Yeah, So she's she's flying in and out. And she is. Yeah. So not only are we making you know, a really quite. We're pushing our budgets as hard as we can, but we've actually cast two actors from Auckland as well. So the [00:11:00] other one is Nikki, who is, um, cast as Mao and I think um, you know it. It's not like we had no options in Wellington, but there's a when we were doing auditions and getting, um, you know, tape sent and things like that. It you, you know, when you found your characters and so and once you've seen that, you know, you don't concede for a budget or whatever, you just go, OK? We just need to make a plan for that, you know, for flights and accommodation and all that [00:11:30] sort of stuff that it brings on. Um, so, yeah, I think in an ideal world, we would have cast from Wellington for lots of reasons. Um, one is that I feel like firstly, um, you know, I've been out in Wellington since the early nineties, and it's a community that I really am interested in in, um, showcasing, I guess. You know, um and so I think it helps you know that Angie's lived spent time in Wellington and understands, [00:12:00] you know, things about the community here and as well because I think that brings, um, an understanding to her role for for Debs, which is cool. How are you? Um, bringing the community of Wellington into this or how How are you showing? Showing it? We've had to change the plan for that. Um, so when I when I first kind of, uh, was looking at the vision for this part of, um, part of me was thinking about how this was going to look on screen and was aware that, [00:12:30] you know, the action takes place in in within, kind of, um kitchens and lounges and stuff like that. And I wanted to create a a really big, vibrant world, you know, and particularly a big, vibrant Wellington. And so I had a vision that all the episodes were going to open and close with, um, with shots of, you know, every day, Wellington lesbians going about their business. And I've gone around and shop at a few places and things like that. And we had really fantastic engagement from the community. And then, as we've kind of cut the story and cut it together, the [00:13:00] two things don't fit. So, um, which has been a little bit of a shame in some ways, But in other ways, I also kind of, um it is helping influence what I'm gonna do with other episodes and how I'm going to bring that community in because there are quite a few opportunities for that to happen. So, um, yeah, it hasn't been a wasted exercise at all. Um, it's always interesting how things translate from either my head or the page onto the screen. And I think you know, you everything [00:13:30] that that we're trying to do is to serve that experience on screen. So sometimes you have to make really tough decisions like that. Um, yeah. So, um, given that, um, this sounds like there's quite a bit of expense, and I know that anything involved with film involves a lot of people, a lot of equipment. How are you managing to fund this? Yeah, So we had, um, some support from the emerging artist Trust who basically gave us an amount of money that, [00:14:00] uh, meant that we could treat the the pilot the first episode, Um, which is what we've done. We We filmed that three weeks ago, three weekends ago. And, um, you know, being able to do that has only happened because we've had amazing support from our cast and our crew, and also a number of industry people. You know, we've had, um fantastic people offering equipment and even, you know, things like vehicles. And, um, some of my lovely people who, you know, made food to feed everyone on set, which felt [00:14:30] so incredibly appropriate for potluck. And, um, yes, we've We've caught in a lot of favours, and I think in lots of ways it's, um it's so nice because the the the kind of the of the of the project involves passion and people being invested in and and everyone making it together. And that's been really fantastic. It's also really hard to keep asking favours from people. It's, um and you know, as much as possible. [00:15:00] We've tried to make sure that there's always something in it for other people as well. Sometimes it's just about supporting us to make content that they actually want to see um, sometimes, like in terms of our crew roles and things like that. Um, we've approached this as trying to give opportunities for people to step up. So, um and particularly in some of the key roles as well. So people who have experience and have been working in the industry and just, you know, kind of need that chance to step into the HOD or, um, get another, you know, really [00:15:30] good credit on their, um, on their CV S and stuff for future work. So So you've been you. You've done this sort of thing yourself, I guess. Yeah. Um, so I'm I'm actually I still feel like a bit of a baby when it comes to the film industry. You know, I'm, um four years since I graduated from from the film school. And, um, I have learned massive amounts in that time. I've made some really cool projects which have been fantastic, and, um and yeah, [00:16:00] I think you know, I've I've benefited so much from the help of some really, uh, far more experienced than I am people who have given me opportunities. And so I really want to be able to do the same thing for other people wherever possible as well. I think it's a big part of the spirit of the industry, and it's certainly one of the things that attracts me to the film industry and particularly with the women. You know, I've worked in situations where, uh, you know, women aren't maybe so supportive of each other, but my experience in film is. You know, I just had these amazing [00:16:30] women who have just kept giving, you know, opening things up for me and giving me opportunities that yeah, that I really appreciate. And I do feel, um, you know, in terms of someone who's reasonably new to the industry, I'm a lot older than other people and and in the same sort of situation and that has real pros and cons, you know, like it definitely I think, has really helped because there's so much more that I maybe understand about the world than I did when I was 20. And you know, things like time and money and stuff like that. [00:17:00] Some of those real fundamental kind of parts of making projects happen. Um, and then, you know, the flip side is, you know, it's it's just huge, and it takes over your life. And as you get kind of older and and, you know, more aware of how important friends and family and just actually having a healthy balance and stuff can be, then it's harder sometimes to kind. They, um you know what you're signing up for and you know how much of your life it's gonna take But I guess that's, um you know, for me. That's why it's so important [00:17:30] that I'm working on projects that I am really passionate about that I really want to see on screen. So? So to see this on screen, you've got a boost. Um, funding project going that you've managed to avoid talking about so far. And I think I think, you know, you should just put it out there. Sorry, Robin. Sorry. Um, yeah. So we, um basically, we, uh, in order to fund the rest of the series, we you know, we had the funding to shoot the pilot, and we always wanted to approach it like that. Um, you know, for me, [00:18:00] I want people to watch this and make a decision about whether they want to see more. And, you know, if they want to see more, then the way they can help make that happen is to support our boosted campaign. Um, it's gonna be free to air, and so you know it. You could look at it in in a way of, you know, if you're going to pay for a ticket to it, then you'd be doing it kind of at the boosted level. Um, and I think the, you know, crowd funding campaigns are huge and take a lot of energy, but they're also really great opportunity [00:18:30] for, um, an audience to become engaged and actually choose to support projects that they care about. So, um yeah, so we we've had a really good response so far. We've got a few more weeks running of our campaign. We need to get all the money to get any of it. So that's, um, quite a challenge. But, um, and then we also have on top of the booster campaign, we have some, um, other funding that we've, you know, applied for and and things like that in order to to shoot it and all that. Um on top [00:19:00] of all of that, we still, uh, you know, our cast and our crew has still have signed up for this project on, um, much lower rates than you know you might otherwise get in an industry because I guess because each of them, um uh, care about making it happen as well. And that has really paid off on set, like just a whole bunch of people that are committed and excited about the project, and it's been really cool. So you're you're aiming for 22,000? I think it was 20. [00:19:30] Yeah, 22. 5 1000 which, um, you know it by the time you feed, everyone move. Everyone have all the equipment, the locations, the costumes, the props. You know, it's just such an expensive business. It's Yeah, And you know that that amount of money we are making go really far. And unfortunately, you know, that's one of the areas that Robin and I, uh, both [00:20:00] kind of are on the same page on and and that we we, um we don't spend money on anything. We don't have to, you know. But at the same time, um, we're really good at making the money that we do have stretched as far as possible because you do see it on screen. Is there anything different about making a Web series compared to some other type of series like TV? And there's so many different possible answers for that, um, I think there's there's a there's [00:20:30] a freedom in making a Web series and that, you know, essentially anyone can do it and they can put it up online, and there's no, um, gatekeepers from distributors or networks or any of that thing. So there's no one saying, uh, you can or can't make this content. Um, there's also, uh, no rules around time, you know, you can make an episode that's 30 seconds long. Or you could make one that's three hours long if you were that way inclined. And I think, um, the [00:21:00] for me personally, I think a story tends to fall naturally into certain kind of durations. And the each episode that, uh, for potluck is gonna be about I say this. I'm putting a stake in the ground at the all vary, but it's probably gonna be about 7. 5 to 8. 5 minutes long, and then the finale is going to be a little bit longer because everything sort of builds towards that six episode. Um, but for me, you know, I kind of imagine that the audience, you know, some of them will sit down and and make an effort to kind of put their lives on hold to watch [00:21:30] it, and a lot of people will watch it and amongst their day or, you know, send the link to their friend who will just be, you know, click on it and passing. And I think a lot of content gets shared like that online. And so we are. Um you know, the episodes are pretty short and snappy and and power packed for each time, so But you're saying that you you've you've got the pilot sorted, but you need the money to finish the other ones. Yeah. So we, um basically, once we get all the money in place through boosted and, [00:22:00] um, the other money that we've got happening in addition to that, then we will be going into our next shoot in earnest, which is likely to be February, March next year. So and we're going to shoot, Um, you know. So the first episode was shot over one weekend, and whereas now we're going to shoot the next five episodes in a block. Yeah. So which is going to be very intense? It's, um it's just huge. The amount of work that goes into it is just huge, but, um, yeah, so we'll be shooting them in a block of, um, sort of 2 to [00:22:30] 3 weeks, intense full time shooting and then off the back of that, we'll start powering into cutting them all together and getting them all nicely packaged up to send out into the world. So which also takes a lot of time. Um, yeah, And so we're still working out at the moment, Um, whether when we release them, it's in one valve swoop or whether we're gonna look at releasing them once a week. And you know things like this. So many different options. That's the thing. With Web series, you're in control. And there's all sorts of variables and and all sorts of pros and cons [00:23:00] for any which way you go. But so for people to keep, um, sort of in the loop around what's happening with it. You've You've got a Facebook page potluck Web series and you've got your website for it. Is there any any other ways that people can find out about what's going on? When, when it's on next? Cool. Yeah, so we're also, um, just in the process of we'll have a Twitter account up and running soon, I think which, um you know, I haven't had that much to do with Twitter, so [00:23:30] that's gonna be an interesting one, but hopefully, uh, I won't have to. I think I've got someone else who's all over that, which is great. Um, we we we've also got our own YouTube, uh, YouTube page as well YouTube channel for, like, Web series and also the page. So all the videos and the behind the scenes and all the episodes going to go up there as well, but yeah, So I think, you know, in terms of, uh, where everything is going to be housed for episodes and everything, our website is probably the best port of call and then [00:24:00] our Facebook page just for keeping up to date with progress. And, you know, we're trying to make sure that we, uh, and keeping our it's almost like, um giving people front receipts to this whole project. You know, we're sort of showcasing it at every step, and our audience have been really engaged already, which is fantastic. It's pretty. Um, it's great to get people's responses and, you know, have them kind of send comments and stuff at different times about either something that we've posted up for them or questions that they have about the series. And Facebook is such a good outlet for that [00:24:30] because it seems to be a lot of interest going on it. And I've seen I've seen you write things about, um, how you've drawn the characters and that some of it seems to be coming from you and your personality and having a little bit of that in there and also that people might recognise a bit of themselves. I think there's a song about there. There may be there may be. Maybe we should make that our theme song. Um, it's quite interesting. So, you know, like my writing process is [00:25:00] I. I kind of develop an idea, and I get it to a point. And then I've kind of got that first read, which in this case was Robin as my producer. And and then I do a bit more work and and sometimes, you know, I have a couple of really fantastic people who give me feedback on projects at different stages, and then I always like to do. At a certain point, I like to do a read through, you know, and and sometimes that's a read through with actors. And in this case, I did a read through with a bunch of friends of mine and, um, which was a really [00:25:30] cool. You know, it's an important there's such a difference between how something sounds to the ear to how it looks on the page. And, you know, I can pretend to read it through in my head, and it's mildly kind of, um, suits the purpose, but yeah, So basically, we got together, had some food read through the whole series, you know, together with people, kind of cast as a character and things like that. And so in lots of ways, that was my first audience. And, um, I was so nervous and [00:26:00] and, you know, and then had kind of a chat about different things. That happened. And there were a couple of moments in that read through where someone recognised something where they had also been there for that moment. Or that was related, you know, to something that had happened to them or to others around us. And I guess, you know, sometimes I think that's quite often the way for me as a writer. I write a lot of stories that, uh, are not necessarily about myself, but the world that I'm in, You know, and [00:26:30] and, um yeah. So sometimes, you know, friends and family get caught up in that niche as well. So it was pretty funny when someone had a realisation and just kind of looked at me across the group. And we laughed, you know, about a particular line that was said so Yeah. And I think, um, you know, it's not like I intend to be a magpie, and I'm sitting there making notes about everything my friends say or anything like that. But certainly things stick in my head, and I'm I'm I'm quite, uh I love banter and dialogue and, you know, and I have this [00:27:00] great group of friends who are endlessly entertaining to me, you know, And and sometimes those things do just kind of sit with me, and I'm like, Yeah, I'm gonna use that at some stage. And where where have you used locations like friends Places or No. So Robin, who is our producer, is also a location, scout and manager. Very handy, very handy. And so, Robin, um, went out scouting around Wellington and found us beautiful locations for Episode one. [00:27:30] And so we, um Yeah, we, you know, Basically, it's a case of finding the locations and having the conversations with people who own them live in them things like that, about what it is we're doing and what we need. And and, you know, there's kind of a standing joke within the industry, which is, you know, never have a film film crew in your house, you know, because it is pretty intense. But at the same time, you know, we knew that we had a fully professional crew. And so, um, you know, as much as you can ever kind of say [00:28:00] that nothing will go wrong that you know, our crew, we're definitely going to be in these spaces and really respectful of them. And they absolutely are, um which is cool and so particularly because, you know, the series is largely set inside, and sometimes that can mean that you end up with something on screen that can get a little bit flat. But, um, but our our kind of hero location, which is Mel's apartment, is just beautiful. And, um, and the lovely, lovely man who owns it has just been so supportive [00:28:30] and, you know, read the script and was excited to support it and things like that as well. So it's been very cool. Yeah, so that's your first location. And do you keep returning there or do they share it around as a support, like dinner going around the different houses? So we largely keep returning to Mel's apartment. So, um, we've also in Episode one, we've also been to Beth's House, and, um, we're yet to yet to discover Deb's house, but that does does come in. But yeah, so the the potluck dinners [00:29:00] themselves largely take place in Mel's apartment. But there's some other stuff that happens outside the potluck dinners that is going to give people a taste of a broader Wellington and, um, a broader world than just, you know, Mel's dining table, which is quite cool. So are you open to flexibility in the script at all, or is it pretty much nailed? It's pretty close to nailed Um, no I, I absolutely am. I think, um, I know that, you know, even just off the back of shooting Episode one, [00:29:30] that there's room for me to push further, uh, with the other episodes and and I'm looking forward to finding some time in January when that's gonna happen. Um, but also, you know, my, uh, you know, I I work on things at a script level and, you know, try and push them as far as I can. And then once you've got your cast on board and again, you know, I've got such a talented cast. We've got Angie, who's, you know, got all sorts of experience in in the UK in front of the screen class is also a singer and a vocal coach. We've got Nicky, who's [00:30:00] a filmmaker, um, in her own right and churning out some amazing stuff. And then we've got Tess, who's a toy facade graduate and also a writer and director and making some fantastic stuff as well. And so I would be an idiot not to look at collaborating with them on, um, developing the characters and really kind of pushing the action that happens within within the series and and, you know, we we've already started that process with Episode one. We spend a bit of time in rehearsals and, um, you know, leading into the shoot, [00:30:30] and and part of that is about building them, building those characters, you know, it doesn't work If I try and apply something concrete onto them and tell them to be that person, they have to kind of feel it and own it. And And, you know, that work I feel like is already paying off by what we get to see in episode one, and we're only gonna get better. Yeah. So? So the way that people can support the project would be to view it as soon as possible after it's released and then spread the word, I guess. Yeah, absolutely. [00:31:00] Yeah. Um, view it. Spread the word, if you have the ability to support it through the boosted campaign as well would be really fantastic. You know, we we really want to make this series, and we've got a bunch of people who are really, um, excited about making it. And the only way we can is if we can get that money in place. So, um yeah, share it, send us feedback. Tell us what you like. Tell us if there's anything that you don't like. I'm not saying that we'll necessarily, you know, change everything about it, but it's always so sometimes you send things out [00:31:30] and you into this great void and you get no response and you don't you know, unless you actually have a physical conversation with someone you don't know how that's working or not. So, yeah, thanks very much. And, um, yeah, congratulations on it. And thanks for bringing us something that is really new for New Zealand. Anyway, I'm not sure about the world in terms of a lesbian Web series, but I imagine it's breaking new ground. Yeah, I think, um, there are there's There's definitely [00:32:00] lesbian Web series out there and there's a huge scale of them. You know, there's there's certainly ones that, um, you know, maybe not so memorable. And then there's some really great ones and entertaining ones as well. And And yeah, this is, um it's a comedy, so everything's kind of heightened going on in here. But at the same time, I'm trying to, um, do that within a realm of characters that you can recognise and maybe know And, um, you know, or, uh, close to yourself. So I think it is kind [00:32:30] of unique in that sense, and it's certainly unique coming from New Zealand, and it will be really interesting to see how that goes internationally. whether there's, you know, interest and kind of what happens down here in the end of the world. So it launches on December, the so it launches online at nine o'clock New Zealand time, December the first, and that's WWW dot potluck Web series dot com.

IRN: 958
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/prue_hyman_homosexual_law_reform.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004394
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089688
TITLE: Prue Hyman - homosexual law reform
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VOICES: Prue Hyman
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; Adrienne Rich; Alison Laurie; Amazons Softball Club (Wellington); Anne de Lacy; Aotearoa New Zealand; Armstrong and Arthur Charitable Trust for Lesbians; Association of Women Academics (Victoria University of Wellington); Bea Arthur; Beryl Hughes; Bette Armstrong; Beverley Merle Price; Bill Logan; Bronwyn Dean; Circle (magazine); Club 41; Cynthia Bagwash; David Hindley; Dominion (newspaper); Fran Wilde; Gay Task Force; Geoffrey Palmer; Glenda Gale; Hamilton; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Human Rights Act (1993); InsideOUT Kōaro; International Women's Day; Judaism; Julie Glamuzina; Kapiti Coast District; Khandallah; Lesbian Information, Library and Archives Centre (LILAC); Lesbian Line (Wellington); Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Lesbian and Gay Rights Resource Centre; Linda Evans; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Marilyn Waring; Mary Barber; Maryan Street; Maxine Gunderson; Member of Parliament; Māori; NZ Council for Civil Liberties (NCCL); National Housing Commission; Ngaio Marsh; Parliament buildings; Pat Rosier; Phillida Bunkle; Pleasance Hansen; Porleen Simmonds; Progressive Judaism; Prue Hyman; QUILTED BANANAS (Wellington Access Radio); Radio New Zealand; Robert Campbell; Robin Shave; Rosslyn Noonan; School's Out (Wellington); Standing up to be counted (homosexual law reform newspaper advert); Sunday Supplement (Radio New Zealand); Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington; The New Zealand Jewish Council; Tighe Instone; Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); United Kingdom; Victoria Club; Waikanae; Wellington Gay Switchboard; Wellington Gay Task Force; Wellington Regional Jewish Council; Wellington Town Hall; Women's Place bookshop; Women's Studies Association of Aotearoa New Zealand (WSA); Women's Studies Association of New Zealand conference (Hamilton); Women's Weekly (magazine); academia; academics; activism; activities; adoption; advertising; age of consent; androgynous; anti discrimination; archives; arson; attitude; bars; bullying; butch femme; census; civil liberties; civil rights; closet; coming out; community; conference; conservative; cricket; decriminalisation; discrimination; dyke; economics; economist; education; email; employment; equality; feminism; flags; friends; fun; hate; herstory; homophobic bullying; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; human rights; identity; internet; intersex; invisibility; language; law; lesbian; lesbian feminism; lesbian politics; letter; letters to the editor; march; marriage equality; media; meetings; newspapers; older age; photography; politics; psychology; queer; racism; radio; relationships; religion; respect; social media; sport; sports dyke; squash; statistics; submission; tolerance; transgender; typewriter; women; women's studies; writing
DATE: 15 November 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Paekākāriki, Paekākāriki, Kapiti Coast District
CONTEXT: In this podcast Prue takes Jac Lynch through a personal archive of newspaper articles, letters and submissions made in support of homosexual law reform.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Prue. We've got, um, a a stack of archival material in front of us. Um, that looks like it's all from sort of the 19 eighties. Can you talk to some of the some of this material? Yeah, There's a lot of yellowing, uh, articles from the newspaper in there. And, uh, I kept a clippings from the campaign plus all the submissions and all that sort of stuff. And, um, I think you wanted to know about the ones I was particularly involved with that that weren't the mainstream ones. I wasn't [00:00:30] as involved as some of the the, uh, the key people that you've already interviewed. Like like and Stone and Alison Laurie, Linda Evans, who founded the main organisations along with some of the men, of course, um, who were most involved. I was, you know, part of those organisations and I went to meetings and so on, but I wasn't I wasn't one of the key people. I didn't deal with Fran director or any of that sort of stuff. That was But you were writing submissions on behalf of some groups, like, [00:01:00] yeah, absolutely. And particularly ones where I had a particular in because I was part of them, like the Association of women Academics at Big, like the Women's Studies Association, which is Countrywide that I was heavily involved in. So I drafted their submissions and made sure they were good ones, and, um, and a little bit different than my own. So they were to repetition. And, um yeah, one thing that I had forgotten about until I looked through this, um, [00:01:30] this pile for an interview I gave on the same subject about 18 months ago. Um, was, uh, that, um I wrote a very indignant letter to the, um Wellington. I think it was Wellington. It might be New Zealand Jewish Council. Um, I'm Jewish, myself and, uh um, liberal Judaism. Progressive Judaism was pretty good about homosexuality. It has out there been raising a lot, but, um, but a lot of the people in in the broader Jewish community are much more conservative. And, [00:02:00] um uh, there was some fuss going on about a young man. I think it was actually who want wanted to or did carry an Israeli flag and a homosexual law reform flag in one of the demos and and, uh, that, um, some objection to him carrying an Israeli flag That would I know not why Whether it was supposed to indicate that Israel was a law reform or what it what it was supposed to do. But anyway, they were sensitive about it. And [00:02:30] I wrote I read the letter again this morning just for amusement and thought that was a good letter. So what? What did you Can you recall what you were saying? I can't recall unless I have a look at it. But it was, uh, yeah, I just started. And I understand that some objections have been raised. The carrying of an Israeli flag by supporters of the proposed HR reform bill at recent March held to show support of the suggested changes. This letter is to argue such objections are misplaced. I write as a Jewish woman and a lesbian who feels that humanitarian values and a belief [00:03:00] in civil liberties is essential to our religion and thus finds it difficult to understand any compassionate Jew being opposed to the law change, irrespective of the discussions of the exact meaning of particular biblical passages. And I went on and on. And what was your response? Oh, yes. Well, that was the That was, uh, dear. He and I acknowledge your letter of 13th of June to the chairman of this council about civil rights. Your comments are noted, OK, not putting themselves on the line there. So [00:03:30] what other things you've got here? I can see it. Um, it looks like it's from the Dominion. From May the 9th, 1985. I wouldn't have known what date it was, but it, uh I remember the occasion very, very well, because, um, it was a, um uh, an article we organised to get in. I can't even remember who we was a group of lesbians anyway. Um, because, of course, with the the 1985 act, I mean, it was part one of the act that got most of the attention, which was decriminalising, [00:04:00] um, homosexual actions for men. And it was obviously the most important thing because it was appalling that that was there. But in in a sense, when I say it was the most important thing, that's doubtful in a way, because part two of the act that gave us both lots of homosexuals and gay men, gay men and lesbians, and I suppose, well, at those days, bisexual and intersex wasn't transgender, wasn't as wasn't as prominent. Um, so it was basically, uh, lesbians and gay men who were [00:04:30] under scrutiny. But the second part of the act was to give us our human rights, which, of course, we now have. But we didn't get get then that part two of the act failed, and I think it that was 85. I think it was 93. Was it on about then that, um, that, uh, the HR C act was, um, Nominate was amended to do that, but, um, lesbians felt that they were virtually ignored. And then during that, a lot of the debate of that year. Even though we were supporting [00:05:00] the gay men like man doing a lot of the work, he cared just as much. Some of us cared more probably, um, and, um and so we decided to get into the Dominion Post a sort of big spread about, um, about that with a preamble which talked about the human rights aspect of the bill that, um, that, uh, mattered as much to lesbians as to gay men, and, um, and the best way to do it was to [00:05:30] with that to, uh, as a preamble to have some profiles of, uh I think it was three. Or it might have been four, lesbian women. And, um, Glenda Gale, who I think you've interviewed was one of them. And And the Lacy, who sadly died something years ago was another. And I was the third. And, um, So there was quite a column in which, um, um extracts from an interview and my history was, uh, was published and, um, under the title [00:06:00] standing up to be counted. And, um So what? What did they talk about? Well, you one or two things that make me cringe when I read it now, which I won't mention. So I probably said would have preferred to present something slightly different, but it was essentially I talked about my coming out. I mean, uh, this is 85. So I was 42 then and I came out in my mid twenties, so I've been out nearly nearly 20 years at that point. And I I came out in England. Um, but was, uh [00:06:30] it was, uh, with a New Zealand friend. And, um, it is how I ended up back out here largely plus the wonderlust and so on. And, um, we both got jobs at Vic and, uh, lived together for five years. And essentially, it tells me it tells my story and my gradual, um, becoming more politicised as a lesbian rather than it just being, um, through sport and through, um, through love and, uh and, [00:07:00] um, and arguing why it's so important. And, um, and saying that I come out as a lesbian to my women's studies classes and, um, so on and, uh, and why it's important to be out and counted for people coming through and for the politics of the whole situation and lesbian feminism. Um, I'm not sure how how far i how intellectual I was about it at the time. But certainly the importance of lesbianism to feminism and vice versa were [00:07:30] part of my thinking. So you recall the day that this actually came out in the paper? Yes, I recall it very well, because it was a Thursday morning Thursday made the night 1985 I see on the on the rather old Xerox copy of the paper, and Thursday mornings once a month were professorial board, um, now called academic board, which had don't know whether it then had all the professors on it. It doesn't anymore. It's changed its constitution, but that that used to meet on at 9. 30 in the morning. I wasn't a professor, but I was a staff rep [00:08:00] or something and was on the board, and it started at 9. 30. But I had a lecture from nine till 9. 50 so I walked in late, and it certainly felt to me as though every eye was on me because everybody read The Dominion Post. I don't know it was true, but it sort of felt a bit like it that morning tea. It was certainly a subject of conversation. You already seen the paper? Um, I can't remember whether I'd seen it, but I knew it was going in that day, so I wasn't surprised. [00:08:30] Do you have any backlash I had Interesting? No, Nothing unpleasant but interesting things with different groups that, um where I. I mean, I was out to everybody, really. But, you know, sometimes you're more out. It's more obvious than others. And I remember the one I particularly remember was my squash club because squash is. I've got plenty of lesbians who play squash. But it's not as lesbian a sport as, for example, cricket. It seems very heavily [00:09:00] lesbian. And, of course, um, Amazon softball and teams and so on. Um and, uh, I remember the next Inter club. Somebody bravely asked me about it, which I was pleased about, and said, you know, and it was the usual stuff around, you know? I mean, it's fine to be lesbian, of course, but why do you have to be so public, you know, so it gives you the end to to explain why it's important. But that wasn't the only time you were in the paper during the year. I've got another photo here that looks like you're at a demonstration [00:09:30] on that photo at the time. I've seen it a lot recently. It's It comes out on, um, on a lot of the websites, and it's from one of the one of the public meetings where we had both sides there being very vehement. And, uh um, I'm next to Tiggy, and we're I'm looking as though I'm screaming and she's looking angry and we're all looking angry. There's a couple of men on either side looking angry and and Trish Mullens in the background. I'm not sure who else is [00:10:00] there, And, uh, it was certainly one of the public meetings. I don't know why. Who took that picture or Oh, David Hindley. It's one of his pictures. He he took a lot of good stuff during the campaign. And do you do you recall any any of those particular meetings? Not anyone more than the other. I mean, I didn't go to as many as some, but I went to a reasonable number and I mean, they were I'm not that sensitive a character, so I didn't get as shaken as some people did. But it was seeing [00:10:30] the hatred from the other side and some people on the other side was a bit upsetting. But not I didn't get incredibly upset. I mean, we just had to try and win the debates, and it wasn't difficult really taking you long. I'm just gonna have a OK. I'll just have a quick look through here. There's most of the supplement about the census where I manage it in. Well, I dragged it in really I. I think it would might have been about, Um, [00:11:00] there was a time. I'm not sure whether it's as much actually to do with the 85 although it's about it's the same now. This is even an earlier one. Actually, this was a few years earlier where, um, we had, uh um, a boycott on the buses and and in the census, we were still we were trying to get marital state, you know, trying to change the marital status questions or the personal questions so that lesbians and gay men could be counted in the census back right back early in 81. So, I, I managed [00:11:30] to put into a Sunday supplement talk. I gave an old programme which, sadly, got abolished, which had 44 little four minute talks on a Sunday morning. And they were practically always the vast majority were left wingers, which is no doubt why it got abolished. Um, doing, uh, doing their thing. And I, uh, I I had a regular spot on that every you know, two or three times a year, and and I managed to to drag him our invisibility and and so so you You have been, [00:12:00] um, quite active politically around, um, lesbian gay rights. Well, before 85 reasonably so probably only from the early eighties. I was a pretty slow learner. I was, um I was more of a in the seventies, and I didn't I wasn't involved with the early stuff around, um, circle or the I was involved in circle in the last few its last few years, but not in the early years or, uh, or even with the, um, club 41 or anything. I went occasionally, but [00:12:30] I wasn't. I was pretty slow. I was very active in sport and very busy at work. And I I was keen. I was, You know, I was left left of gradually getting more feminist and more more lesbian, political rather than just lesbian social, Was it Was it friends who kind of pulled you in on us or just yourself? Sort of. I think, the situation changing, you know, just simply becoming more aware, become, uh, as as, as time went on and, uh, friends as well. Yes. I [00:13:00] mean, most of my friends were was lesbian friends with sports like to start with, some of whom, particularly cricket, Um, and some of them. I mean, there's still cricketer who are pretty closeted. Um, even now, I think, which is quite intriguing, really. And you don't think people need to be. And, um so But some of the cricketers gradually got more political, and I and I mixed. I just got to mix with the broader crowd and got and and generally and we started reading the stuff [00:13:30] and and, you know, it was a process by by the early eighties, I was certainly getting pretty active. And what what are the sort of groups were you involved in besides the academic ones? Well, of course, lesbian radio got going, Um, when, uh, over 30 years now. So that was the mid eighties as well. I wasn't heavily involved. Um, there was a small group at the beginning which included Alison, Linda and Tiggy that we've already mentioned and a few [00:14:00] others from shave Maxine Gunderson, who died. Um, they were the most active at the beginning. And then after a period, Linda and Allison rang. It ran it all on their own. They lived along the road from from here, and I used to do the odd programme, particularly if they were away or something, I would do an odd programme, but, um, so, uh, I was and I always listen to the radio. So, um, there was that, um Oh, I was involved with the bookshop [00:14:30] when that got going. What year was that? God, I'm hopeless about times. Unfortunately, the woman, the woman's bookshop, But, well, not the not the one in Auckland. The one down here, um, which Pleasant and Pauline started and had a shop in Cuba street. And they ran it with a collective. Um, and that was certainly in the in the eighties. Um, but I can't remember what year. Um, and, uh, we had a a collective that helped with some of [00:15:00] the some of the work. And I remember having a, um a weekend collective meeting at this house at one stage where everybody stayed over and, uh, that would that would have been in the mid eighties. So there there was quite a lot going on, and there was there were various different clubs. I can't remember which ones were when, um there was, uh My memory is hopeless about that. So I was, uh I, um I I won't [00:15:30] say that That the lesbian side of lesbian feminism was my most active thing because I was very heavily involved with women and work type stuff. And I mean I. I used to talk about lesbian where lesbians fitted in that as well. So I wrote actual articles about lesbians in census and about, um um and, uh, when Oh, I've written a couple of sort of scholarly articles. More scholarly articles about lesbians, stuff in [00:16:00] in the workforce, so sort of work and social. Were you being proactively approached by media during those years? Not very much as a lesbian, I mean, um, no, I wasn't one of the spokespeople in the way that Tiggy and Linda and Allison and Co were because I and I didn't that reason why I should have been because I wasn't as active as them, But it was always there, and I sort of, um I used to do what I could. Yeah, so? [00:16:30] So, going through this rather large pile, lots of, um, here's a submission on the homosexual law reform bill. That's common Age of consent is a subject there. Decriminalisation. You start out with decriminalisation. Yeah, because this is my my own personal submission supporting the bill in its entirety. And I first argue for the decriminalisation and a similar age of consent because that looked to be [00:17:00] for a time to be a problem. It might be 18 rather than 16 or whatever it was, or even 21. And then, of course, the, um um, this part two of the bill that inclusion sex orientation within coverage, Human Rights Commission And I sort of did the the common things that most people wrote at the beginning about the the reasons for decriminalisation and then I. I went on to my personal viewpoint as a lesbian [00:17:30] myself and as a feminist and as a and as a person of Jewish parentage and as a university teacher and as an economist, I seem to I seem to have a section on each of those. I wouldn't have read it for a long time. That's fantastic. Four long pages type, of course, in those days, by the look of it typed on a on a typewriter, not even a computer back in 85. No mistakes. From what I can see that So [00:18:00] some of the some of the articles you've got here as Well, looks like you've got some letters to the editor here. Um, that appears to be, uh that was using my my being economics and statistical. Um, you know, you always use your your your, uh, anywhere where you've got a comparative advantage to sort of, um because it makes your your arguments even more respectable in inverted commas. And that was about when the people that the [00:18:30] ghastly, um, opposition that had the petition, Of course, you remember that they had a petition opposing decriminalisation, and they completely exaggerated and cheated on the numbers they've got. They, um And they said they had 97% of Hamilton East voters. And, uh, and petition organisers themselves have met that many young people aged 12 to 17 have signed a petition where it's only supposed to be voters. And, [00:19:00] uh, it, um And, uh, a reputable Waikato University survey was done to discredit them, and only 37% of those voting age had signed, So they were they were cheating as well. So this was this was a report to say that, uh, they shouldn't. They shouldn't be listened to for their ridiculously absurdly exaggerated numbers. And, um, and I finished with. It is to be hoped that MP S attempting to evaluate [00:19:30] their electorate opinion will pay more attention to scientific surveys than glossy presentation of questionable petition statistics. Pretentious Post published that I wouldn't I wouldn't have remembered that I had. Were you at Parliament when they presented their Yes, Yes, yes. I can't remember. My memory is not good enough to remember it in detail. But I, I remember the occasion and some of the, uh, celebrations when the [00:20:00] when we actually got the thing passed, which is even better. You do remember that that you're probably the first person I've spoken to actually remember. I remember it very well. I remember it very well, but it was just Where were you? Can you remember? Oh, God, no. I don't think I was in the gallery because it was very crowded. I think I was just milling around outside I. I guess it was a loud chair or something. Yeah, because you've got some other bits [00:20:30] and pieces here. You've got something about a fire at the resource centre. Yes, I Unfortunately, I haven't got the date of that paper. Um, it was and ah, but It's just after the passing of the act because it said it. Quote Julie, I think you've also interviewed. And she was a trustee of the, um of that the, uh the Gay Lesbian Gay Centre that was going in Boycott Street, which they which was [00:21:00] put on fire. And she said attacks on homosexuals could be on the increase as a result of the passing of the act in July. So it must be in the few months after it. And it was certainly a homophobic, homophobic, motivated attack. And, um, I can't remember whether they caught the people that did that. Maybe they didn't try very hard. What have you got here, right? Yes. Tuesday, Thursday, July the 10th. That was a big day, wasn't it? [00:21:30] Come through. There we go. Hard, hard worn victory. Hard won victory. I don't I don't mind getting some credit, but she go, She had to be managed I. I mean, I wasn't heavily involved in it, but I heard a lot about it from the others of, um um about, uh, how she wanted to manage the campaign, you know? And it was a lesbian and gay campaign that she kindly fronted, and she did front it, and she deserves credit for [00:22:00] it. But God, they had to keep her in line. Yeah, OK, that is that. What's this one here? This looks like that's the That's the famous, um, um, thing before it was passed in May 85 that went in all the papers. Um, so with category one and category two in, um, supporting the bill as these people, it's a full page ad, and it went in all the papers, [00:22:30] I think, um, supporting the the bill and, um, advertising in March as well. And giving lesbian lines number and gay switchboards number as well. And that that would have been rare in itself just to have those two numbers in the paper. Yes, that's right. And but if I remember clearly getting signature, actually going around and getting the signatures, I was one of the many people who you know, um, trotted around lesbian and gay gay events. [00:23:00] Um uh, getting people to to sign and, of course, pay some money towards the ad because they was there a fight to get it in the paper. Or I don't think so. I think the Dominion Post is happy to print it if you so you could pay for it. And as you can see there, three columns of We are lesbians and gay men and we support the passage of the bill unamended. And there's six, columns. So about double the numbers of just saying we support the bill [00:23:30] of the passage of the bill unamended. And there were some lesbians and gay men who had to think hard which of the two categories to put themselves in whether they were prepared to be out in the paper. I want to go through that list and see if I know anyone else. And there's a lot of people in in There's a lot of people, um, who are, um, there who are who are I know are not lesbian. I see names like and Beryl Hughes, who were both next to each other, who are both from the, um, women studies [00:24:00] at Vic and, uh, who are straight, and that's fine. But I can I can see one or two names. I can see one or two surprising names. I'd better not give them this public thing of who were lesbian and are lesbian and in part one. But the the interesting story about that is that, um, Marilyn Waring signed in part one. And, of course, she'd left Parliament by now. And, um, she never did come out publicly in Parliament, people talk about her as the [00:24:30] first out lesbian MP. But in actual fact, Marion Steep was the first out lesbian MP. Marilyn was outed while she was in Parliament by truth, but she never actually publicly, um, came out herself, and it was actually Alison, Laurie and myself who got her to sign this in part one. I just remember the occasion. It was out we were out in the hut at some I don't know whether it was a feminist or lesbian event specific, but anyway, we were getting signatures and, um and we got Marilyn to sign [00:25:00] and we said part, uh, category one or category two, and she said, Oh, I suppose like me Category one now and that was probably the first time publicly listed. That was rather good, incredible page to have. I don't know what's going to happen to any of this stuff when I die. I'm 72 and I I've got so many things that are, um, not only mine, but I've got the whole of Pat's papers. [00:25:30] And, uh and I've got Bronwyn Dean, who is an ex partner of mine, who's an out lesbian and involved in all sorts of things I've got. I haven't got her papers. I've got some of her photographs. I've got so many of these things and I worry like mad because I'm not likely to to have anybody much to go through them. I've got a couple of lesbian trustees, but it's really worrying to know what you, whether anybody will want them. Because wouldn't you give them to Well, I mean, they've probably got them all already, really, It's It's [00:26:00] just the interesting part about it's probably things like the that ad in the paper and so on. They would have, you know, it's just my memories of, of of it that make it particularly interesting to me. But obviously the things that I wrote myself, uh, it would be quite nice to go in some archive. And here's Here's a letter you've heard back from the then deputy prime minister. 15. April 1985 and he tried to get an [00:26:30] appointment, and he wouldn't meet. And I knew Jeffrey because he'd been. He'd been a professor of law at Vic and we were on committees together and I was pretty pissed off when he wouldn't see me. I think it looks like he knew that he that you would be pissed off, actually, because he's put a handwritten note. Something about I am a member of the committee. I will see you at some point. Yeah, Yeah, it was. I want to get on your bed. [00:27:00] Here's a little ad for a rally for the bill Friday, the seventh of March. So that was quite a little bit beforehand. Featuring Fran Wild, Rob Campbell, Ros Noon and Alison Laurie, Bill Logan and Mary Barber. The fight is not over. Sponsored by the Wellington Gate Task Force. Yeah, and, uh, and it was on the anniversary of the introduction and International Working Women's Day and the resumption of the debate in Parliament. I can't say I remember the particular rally. I can't remember one from another, but I was probably [00:27:30] there. And so that's That's how these things would have been promoted at the time, though. Would have been flyers. And that's right. I mean, we didn't have social media and we didn't have email, did we? In 85? No, of course we didn't. I'm not even Well, I mean, I I'm intrigued that I don't know what stage I started doing everything on computer, But clearly all these things are just typed on a typewriter. And, uh, I've got draughts of some of my submissions that I changed and all sorts of that sort of thing. Quite fun. [00:28:00] Lots of my handwritten IEG stuff. NCCL National Council for Civil Liberties. I don't know what the hell I was doing with them. Oh, I think I made a speech there. OK, yes, that's right. All that sort of thing. Just see what else we can grab here. Oh, yes, the women's weekly. I've forgotten that one. That's after it's passed, though. Oh, no, that's a little bit different. [00:28:30] It's, um but it was a women's studies association conference. Yes, I remember that. Vaguely. Now, some, um, a conservative woman came to the conference and wrote it up. Um, for the women's weekly. Uh, yeah, this is and it's headed. Actually, her letter to the Women's weekly is headed homosexual [00:29:00] reform and says, I read about AWS a with instead association conference to be held in Hamilton. The topics were to be from the media and marriage to health and housing. I enrolled and was given the programme. I learned the conference, but from the cover I learned the conference will be on feminism, racism and the heterosexual that presumably love worried her. On Saturday, I turned up and listened to what they had to say on lesbianism and racism, and after gathering at a plenary, we were told that some of us were there on false pretences. And would [00:29:30] the women who supported the law reform bills join the group of women standing at the front? That left a third of us still sitting? And, uh, I stood up and said why I was against the bill, although I was prepared to listen to the other side. And then she says, Oh, some of the women told me to leave and they thought they would bodily remove me and and I would be subjected to further abuse. I felt I had not gone along on false pres but been lured to the meeting by false advertising and information. [00:30:00] So I didn't like that that somebody must have pointed out to me because I never read the women's weekly and, um, I managed to get a a reply. Um, printed Beverly Meal Price gives a misleading picture of events at the WS a conference. The major themes were set from the start and well publicised. Papers and workshops and a variety of subjects were welcome, but speakers were asked to ensure their presentations reflected an awareness of the major themes. As a member [00:30:30] of the National Housing Commission, which I was at that stage, I offered a paper on housing. This made reference to the fact that women from different ethnic groups and single women, including lesbians, have varying housing needs. The WS A is an unashamedly feminist organisation as it is clear from its Constitution and aims, uh, supports changes to benefit women, extend civil liberties and accordingly made a submission in favour of the homosexual law reform bill. Attendance of the conference was open to all women. However, only two women, not one third of the 400 or so present, [00:31:00] indicated that they did not support the homosexual law reform and they were not subjected to abuse. So I got be and I see I signed it in senior lecturer in economics, the UW. So it was again this news I my title just to give it a bit more to make sure they published it. I suppose I don't really like doing that, but sometimes you. So what else have [00:31:30] you got here? Got possible resolutions for educational institutions, etcetera, affirming no discrimination against lesbian gay men as students or employees in my own handwriting. Which wasn't as bad then as it is today. Just affirming that it that I wanted to put these to to all the the governing bodies to make it. So There was all this sort of stuff going on behind the scenes that all helped. Yeah. Did you Did you get any, um, [00:32:00] from your colleagues at at Varsity? Were people mostly on board with you that you knew of? Well, I didn't get much flack. I mean, it was quite interesting because I was in the economics department then I. I finished my career in women's general women's studies, but I was in economics for all the years and I ran. I ran the department. I was chair of the department for years. They loved me doing the work, but they didn't respect my academic work because it was all feminist and lesbian. And I got as far as associate professor [00:32:30] with some grudging comments. But, um, but, you know, I always felt that they didn't really think I was a real economist because my what I did my work. So it's kind of the irony really of around, you know, under continuing to undervalue women's work, I guess with, um, even the study of it. So this this collection of papers you've got start going into the nineties and there's a bit of [00:33:00] variation, but there's there's also It's not all in total order. That was the Council for Civil Liberties. That was yeah, don't know what meeting that was, but it says I was speaking. That was before the bill, and they had a, um they had a psychologist and somebody from the law faculty and me on the implications of the bill which affect women, and Bill Logan from the Gay Task Force on [00:33:30] the age of 16 and John Oh, well, they had somebody else, so it was, uh, arguing that age 18 is more reasonable and acceptable. That's bad for the Council of Civil Liberties. Um, that there were five comment. Just can't remember that meeting at all, to be honest, but I obviously spoke at it. Do you remember, um, conversations with other lesbians at the time about it and perhaps having to argue about why you're in support [00:34:00] or I? I don't remember any lesbians being anti there. I mean, there is, I mean, some stuff in the history, and, you know, other people are better than me on on long term lesbian history. But, um um, there are some lesbians who quite perhaps didn't mind being in the closet really? And didn't mind [00:34:30] it being hidden and felt that the the stirring up by the politicos went a bit far. And, um and there was also the stuff, of course, around Butch Fem and and some of older style dykes. And there's nothing wrong with, but as far as I'm concerned, and I know you've done work in that area. But some of us are think of ourselves as fairly androgynous and neither but no. [00:35:00] And, um, I think there were some who felt that some of the lesbian feminists were being disapproving of but and It probably was some element of that. I mean, you always get extremes at any movement, and, uh, and not understanding how difficult it was to be to be a lesbian at all and and have a life at all in the forties, fifties or earlier. And, uh so I think, you know, there may have been some people around who weren't particularly thrilled by [00:35:30] the politic. So, I mean, I guess I guess being able to be under the radar and just sort of be living, um, and and the protests and the action and so on, Perhaps bringing that out into the open, Perhaps people might feel a bit under the microscope. I think there was some of that, but I don't remember getting heavily involved with anybody who was, You know, in that category, I probably didn't know them as much more. More [00:36:00] so certainly. Yeah, but I mean, you know, people talk about who were lesbians in various different places, from school teaching to who earned out, you know. And then And then, of course, we had the wonderful stuff around. Um um the Arthur Armstrong Foundation, Or before it was out, when when Betty and B were the oldest out lesbians around who'd been closeted for quite a long while, and then came miles out [00:36:30] and were out in their eighties. And we're the only only ones then. I mean, now we're loads of us are in our seventies. But back then they were in their eighties and us We were in our fifties or early sixties. And they were They were terrific. Did you know them in the eighties? Did you know I knew that? Well, when the I tell you, I'm no good at dates, I don't I don't Were they around in the in during the law Reform times? When did they die? I can't remember now that there was the They they used to go [00:37:00] to the, um uh, the bar. The restaurant in Oriental Parade. Victoria Club, of course. And, um, I can't remember how they, uh, some I mean, load of the people who are on the trust who knew them better than I did. We'll tell you about that? That's I've got a picture by Betty up there. I'm not sure where it is, but we bought that somewhere. Um, and then we were doing a sale [00:37:30] for the trust. I think of some of their stuff after they both died. But they were lovely women, both of them. And I went to lots of parties where they at. I knew them quite well, but not as well as some of the others. Who who? Uh and, um But it was lovely having having some out women in their eighties because, uh, I mean, in in 10 years time and less than that, I'm 72. I've got loads of friends who are older in their seventies than I am, who are going to be out in our eighties. But the near [00:38:00] legacy is the trust. Oh, absolutely, which supports lesbian radio, supports lilac and supports individual initiatives from lesbian to apply. Yeah, they they do. They were grateful because they had a wonderful time once they found the community. I mean, they had a wonderful time themselves before, but they they loved being in the community. And, um and the community loved them and did a lot for them. And they left a lot of money to the community, which is absolutely great. I I was the neighbour [00:38:30] when I was about 10 or 12 K and they had what was called, um we were We called it the fairy garden. And it was, um, backed onto our property. And I used to go because I was quite into being climbing trees and sort of those sorts of things, and and I would I'd go up and climb trees and and kind of watch these two lovely women pottering around. And I was fascinated by them. And I'd ask my mother about them, and she would call them the sisters. So it wasn't [00:39:00] I'm not sure my mom talked to them, but I'm not. I'm not sure I have to ask her, but, um, it wasn't until it wasn't until I was out and, you know, probably 20 years old and actually met them and realised who they were. Yeah, it's a lovely property that they kept it for quite a long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So nice. But like you, like you say, they were the really the the only woman [00:39:30] couple female couple that we all knew we were aware of. I mean, there were loads of others. And, um, Alison Laurie, who knows a lot about the history, knows who the older ones were. you know, but, um I mean, she did all sorts of things, like knock on their own Marsha's door, right? Very many years before. But, um, I wasn't even in New Zealand when I until I was in my mid twenties, and, um and then, [00:40:00] yeah, I didn't Didn't, uh, Didn't get to know people who are that old. And suddenly we're getting that age ourselves. It's getting to be a bit of a shock, Really. It comes around when when you went, you said you went around and gathered up some of the signatures for that four page article. Who were you approaching? People? You knew about it? Or I think I think mainly, uh, we were at I either get lesbian or feminist events, so we were, yes, [00:40:30] it was mainly around place, people we knew or we we thought were likely to if we didn't know. We thought we were likely to be relatively sympathetic, but it wasn't like just going around the pubs. I mean, I feel incredibly admiring of the brave people who used to sell circle around the pubs in the very early days. I wasn't that brave, that that much of a pioneer um, but, uh, you know, you you've [00:41:00] challenged. I mean, you went to the meetings and that you had trouble there, but, um no I. I don't think we, um We tried to get signatures just from anybody. Do you feel there was had a great impact? It's very hard to judge, isn't it? I mean, I think all those things are worth doing. I mean, uh, I'm, um I'm not an expert on whether media advertising generally has as much impact [00:41:30] as all that. I, uh I'm a bit of a sceptic. I take absolutely no notice of any advertising if I possibly can. I Don't look at it. I don't know. I fast forward through it on television, but that was pretty big. That was a pretty big one. Full page ad. And, uh, and I think those big spreads yeah, they do. They do make an impact. I don't know whether how much they change MP S minds. I mean, MP S are supposed to be, you know, just programmed to do what they think will be acceptable to the [00:42:00] majority. Um, so, uh, you if you change minds with that, you hopefully change MP S minds as well to some extent. And and so the the, um the second part of the bill that didn't go through you stayed involved and continuing to campaign around the human rights. The discrimination side of it. Yeah. You'll have heard about some of those actions from all sorts of the other people, like Tiggy, who used to dress as Cynthia [00:42:30] Bag Wash. I'm sure she told you about that. That was absolutely splendid. We, um um yes, I knew her well, very well at one point, and we went to some of those things with her, and, um and, um yeah, we had a great had some fun, but this is all fun as well as serious, some of it. And we had fun around that, and, um, it was, [00:43:00] uh, you know, part getting that act through in the early nineties was very important, and we we certainly were part of those campaigns as well. So, um, you referred earlier to having been interviewed for a master's, um, paper about 18 months ago and that, um, the the person interviewing you, um, wanted to to use the term queer rather [00:43:30] than lesbian identity. Yeah. Yeah, That was an interesting thing. I'm very glad I did that interview. Firstly, I found all my material, and, uh, I knew exactly where it was after 18 months. I pleased about that. So it was easy to find it again for the day. Um, and secondly, it was, um we did. It was a joint interview that Pat and I did with this Masters student, and, um, it turned out to be just 10 days [00:44:00] before she dropped dead, which was, of course, utterly ghastly. And, uh, but it was It was lovely having done that joint interview just beforehand, and I've got a copy of it. So it's the last thing I've got of of the two of us, um, together. But yes, I had quite an argument with her. I'm grateful to her now because of having the interview. But, um, I had quite an argument with the student because of this labelling it, um, it it was her title of the thesis, and I can't remember the title in in detail, but I know it was getting something around [00:44:30] getting queer women's perspectives on the campaign. But, um, when I signed the con, when she came with the consent form. She'd probably put the queer women thing in the email, but I probably hadn't registered it. You know, I just registered the campaign, and when I came to sign the form and she came, I said, No women. Um, it was very much at the time. And for many of us still now lesbians rather than queer women and said, Why are you using that [00:45:00] title? And she went on about how that was her perspective, that she was a younger woman and that's what she called herself and a lot of her friends did, and that she was using some material about from even though it was about that campaign. She was using theoretical perspectives from now that use queer women. And I said, and it turned out that she was only interviewing. It was a smaller project, and I realised she was only interviewing three people, the two of us and in and, [00:45:30] um, I said, Well, the three of us iden as they and an still now as lesbian. So if you're the only people you're using, it doesn't seem appropriate to me. Anyway, we had a fairly heated discussion about it, and, um and I actually qualified my consent for because I I didn't I can't remember what I wrote. But I said I didn't wasn't happy with the title. She then emailed me back and said, Well, she perhaps better not use my material at all because I I qualified to contempt for him and I said, Well, that's a blooming waste of my time. [00:46:00] If you don't use it, I I can't force you to change the title. But I think at a minimum you should have a discussion about this issue within the thesis because it seems to be a very important one. And she agreed to that and sent me what she'd written, which was perfectly OK and and were you able to self identify as lesbian? Oh, yes, Oh yes. In the in the actual thesis, she talked about it, but But it was just, uh it seemed to me that [00:46:30] when she was doing the historical thing, it it seemed odd that she'd used the queer women when we just didn't use that of ourselves at that point at all. II I just find it so ironic that you're talking about homosexual law reform when in those days the term lesbian was actually quite an invisible term. Um, it wasn't around. It wasn't used in media as hard to advertise things. And it was it. It was used within. We called ourselves [00:47:00] lesbian very extensively. And it was lesbian feminist circle. And it was, you know, lesbian as a word had been around. I don't know how long I'm not an expert, but certainly in this campaign, it was the most for for the women, it was the most important. I mean, that was how we labelled ourselves. We talked about lesbian clubs and lesbian radio and lesbian everything, and, um but, uh, we did eight years later, you're arguing for it? Yeah, exactly. And and, I mean, a lot of people are saying that the L word, you know, gets less [00:47:30] and less fashionable, and, um God almighty, everything gets less and less fashion. Even women get less and less fashionable. We suppose you know we're turfs now. I mean, this isn't so much a lesbian. This is This is radical feminists. We're we're turfs. If we you know, we've got to got to take a particular position about the integration of trans women into womanhood. Whatever we feel about it. Um, we're completely Neanderthal and discriminating if we have a more [00:48:00] nuanced analysis of the trans of trans issues. I mean, there I was very unhappy about trans stuff when I when it first started getting going, I'm less. I'm more relaxed about it now. I think people are entitled to do what they like. But I I worry politically about a lot to do with trans issues because I think, um, I think, uh, there's a great deal of concern amongst some lesbians [00:48:30] and feminists that, um, we were trying to break down the binaries. Um, sure, we we are at one end of a sexual orientation continuum where we we would definitely want to have primacy in our lives and always to to women, as Adrian Rich Quote. Good quote says. But, um, and anybody can be anywhere on the continuum And and [00:49:00] intersex is a complex issue for those who who are born with with ambiguous genitalia, which, you know I have a great deal of time for everything Mary Mitchell and Coe have done about intersex. And but But with Trans, one tends to think that what we were arguing for as feminists and as lesbian feminists were that we could dress and do and behave and be and love anybody we liked as we were, [00:49:30] you know? So those are the sort of arguments I tend not to make them very much in public. To be honest, I because I haven't got the courage, uh, some of the times because you just get labelled as being completely biassed and anti trans. I'm not anti trans. I'm not anti anybody who chooses anything for themselves or Trans. I'm not anti gay marriage for those who choose to do it. But I question it politically. I think it's a mistake to say We just want to be like you and, uh [00:50:00] and I think as a result, I think a lot of lesbian politics and some extent gay politics more so lesbian politics has lost its edge. And what what would you say would be the and for you would be the most important things that still need to be addressed? Well, I think young people coming out of the toughest times I know a lot of you do a lot of good work. I'm not heavily involved in it myself, but I try and publicise it. The the bullying in schools are all [00:50:30] the schools out the inside out, the the work in in, um, various ethnic communities in Pacific communities. The all the stuff that, um, is going on, um, to try and make it easier for for young kids coming out, I think that's probably the most important thing of the lot. I mean, there's odds and ends like adoption, and and, um, this is for lesbian. I'm thinking now of lesbians and gay men. I mean, I obviously I'm all in favour of trans [00:51:00] people having their rights, But I'm You can say that without having to accept that that trans politics is non problematic. If for me it is problematic and in terms of legislation that you think needs to be changed Um what? What would be primary for you? Um I'm not sure about legislation. I think, um, [00:51:30] I'm not sure where adoption is on whether it needs to be legislation or whether that couldn't be done just by regulation and and, um, changes of policy. Um, I mean, a lot more is changing attitudes and behaviours than than legislation these days. It seems to me and, uh We've still got a long way to go in in that, I think, um, to all tolerate each other and do more than tolerate each other, respect each other.

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TITLE: Rob Lake - homosexual law reform
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VOICES: Rob Lake
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; AIDS Support Network; AIDS Support Network Trust; Alison Laurie; Anti Springbok tour protest (1981); Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Australia; Bill Logan; Bruce Burnett; Caren Wilton; Catholicism; Chris Atmore; Christianity; David Hindley; Dennis Altman; Dominion (newspaper); Dorian Society; Douglas Jenkin; Fran Wilde; Gavin Young; Gay BC (Wellington Access Radio); HIV / AIDS; Haiti; Hamish Allardice; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Jon Lusk; Keith Hay; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Lesbian and Gay Rights Resource Centre; Linda Evans; London; Los Angeles; Men Against Pornography; Men Against Rape; Miss New Zealand; Neil Anderson; Neil Costelloe; Neil Thornton; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Phil Parkinson; Pink Triangle collective; Pipitea Street; PrEP (Pre-Exposure Prophylaxis); Presbyterian; Pride; QUILTED BANANAS (Wellington Access Radio); RAF Greenham Common (UK); Rob Lake; Robin Duff; Robin Nathan; Salvation Army; San Francisco; Scots College; Shane Town; Springbok rugby tour (1981); St Andrew's on the Terrace; Sydney; Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington; The Ankali Project (Australia); The Australia, New Zealand, United States Security Treaty (ANZUS); The Naked Civil Servant (film); Trotskyism; United States of America; Wellington; Wellington Access Radio; Wellington City Library; Wellington Gay Switchboard; Wellington Regional Hospital; Wellington Town Hall; Women Against Pornography; activism; advertising; affirmation; alcohol; anger; anti-nuclear movement; archives; arson; assertiveness training; bars; beats; church; climate change; coming out; commodification; community; community centre; conservative; cruising; dance; dance party; death; divorce; drag; dyke; education; fag; family; feminism; flamboyant; gardening; gay; gay liberation movement; graffiti; grandparents; gym; health system; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; indigenous peoples; indigenous rights; land rights; law; lesbian; lesbian separatism; library; marriage; marriage equality; media; men's movement; news; newspapers; oral history; parents; passion; peer support; phone book; piercing; pink dollar; police; politics; pornography; public opinion; public servant; public toilet; queer; radio; refugee; relationships; religion; rugby; rural; safe sex; safe space; saunas; school; self defence; self esteem; separatism; seroconversion; sex; sport; stickers; study; suicide; support; teaching; television; travel; unions; university; visibility
DATE: 18 November 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Sydney, Sydney, Australia
CONTEXT: In this podcast Rob talks about activism during homosexual law reform and early responses to HIV AIDS in Wellington.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Rob. My first encounter with you was seeing a television clip with you and Neil Costello in 1985 and it was in. It was during law reform, and you were talking about a self defence course. Can you tell me, um, about that and where that kind of came from? Ah, 85. Yeah. So there was quite a burst of G up stuff going on, and, um, from my perception, a lot of that sort of grew out of [00:00:30] the uni out of Victoria. Um and, um, I sort of as a generation of activists, many of whom we sort of got, I suppose, blooded together through Springbok tour. You know, with that sort of, um, we were all at back half live together, you know, Um, so this is 23 years before, So I shared a house with, um with Neil and, um, some and a number of women, Karen and th and who who were [00:01:00] very much part of the, um, tour, the anti tour stuff. It sort of it built from there. And that's so I sort of came out in into, um, into that. So I came out, um, from my first year of uni, which I think was, um, 81 or 82 which was the year of the tour. It was that and, um, so I never finished it. I only I only did six months of uni. I never finished any. So, um, I, I, um I basically did politics for that. And, um, for for that and and we had a really strong there was a really strong [00:01:30] sort of queer sort of sub part of that. And to stuff not particularly out or not. Not particularly kind of visual, but we just that was how we knew each other and things. And, uh, I went, went we just went from there. And most of a lot of the political gay political stuff in and the switchboard and stuff were funded by the dancers up at Varsity. Yes. So 85 you know that, um, self defence I, I think was just there was this real activity of stuff going on, you know, And I remember a lot of the [00:02:00] the dikes and us we were We were doing it together because, you know, there was violence going on, you know, and and and you know, it was it? It was that, um, you know, we just I think, you know, we just felt like we needed to be ready for it. And, um, thingy who ran, who ran the self defence? She went on to run a sort of, like a business or in self defence and training in self defence. And I think at that point, me and me and Neil were lovers, and, um and I just have some, um I just always [00:02:30] have this vision of, um, going home. I don't think I was I wouldn't have been living at home, but going home and my family, you know, my dad and mom were having dinner, and this was on the It was on the TV. And, um, it was just very awkward. Very awkward moment, because he's me. You know, I think I had this huge mane of hair and, um, earrings. I used to wear huge earrings, and, um, Dad was just, like, kind of speechless, you know? And, um so it was very funny. [00:03:00] Well, it was very funny, wasn't it? And, um, but that that's and but there was just that this amazing sort of, um, you know, energy leading into all that law reform stuff, and it it just brought out a whole lot of other stuff. It was like, you know, it was a catalyst for a whole lot of other stuff, and and for us, I mean, I actually started off through the switchboard. Um, when I first came out the down at the street, you know, in the in the basement. And, um, so the switchboard used to be funded by the dancers and the, [00:03:30] um the community centre used to be funded by dancers, and we we just sort of took it on a bit as a and so we made it, you know, renovated it and just got sort of stuck in. And that was and that was where the, um what was it called then? You know, the the archives were there, and Phil Parkinson was looking after the archives. Um, then at the same time as well, So it was everything was just in the one place, you know, in street. So was this usual for somebody just coming out to be a part of all of these kind of activities, or [00:04:00] were you a, um I don't know. I kind of, um, I did come out with a bang, you know, because, um, I had quite a, uh my my parents were quite conservative on Christians, and, um, I, you know, had a fair coming out. And so it was a It was a bit of a rebirthing for me, and, um, it, you know, it did feel a little bit like coming home, you know, And it was coming home to politics, really? To me, Um, [00:04:30] which was, you know, I've never really been particularly political at school. And, you know, I went to a private school, went to Scots and, um, you know, didn't didn't really do anything there, you know, because nothing I mean was was it was not like I. I was particularly political or or were there. My family weren't, um I don't know. I just It was like I just found it, you know, And I think I probably it was a combination of of the mix I. I think, um, there was a lot of activism at the time, so because I The first thing I really got involved in with [00:05:00] was men's was men's movement stuff, um, started off around assertiveness. Um But then we set up a thing called So the women had a thing going called, um, women against pornography. And so we had men against pornography, and we were doing, you know, we were, um, you know, doing a protest outside miss New Zealand contests. And we did some stuff with, um, teenagers at school around men and pornography. And, um, yeah, so there was, like, a feminist [00:05:30] thing going on with that as well, And, um, like Chris with this was a big part of that. I think he is in Melbourne. Yeah. Um, yeah. So So we did the map stuff. Um, I did a lot, you know, I was doing a certain training and things with the men's movement thing, half of whom then ended up being gay. I mean, I was I was sort of, you know, I came out and then got in that stuff because I really enjoyed it. You know, I thought it was really interesting. And then but But it was, um I loved the community centre stuff. I loved [00:06:00] that the work and the way and the people were amazing. And it was just, um it was quite a powerful community to to come into, you know? So So what was the community centre? So it was a drop in place a few nights a week. Um, and it was it was really the hub of where things going on. You know, um, I have so many memories. I mean, I can remember, I think must have been. So Bruce Burnett came. Bruce Bennett came back from [00:06:30] from San Francisco, I think, came back with an American guy. And I remember they came down and had a sort of, like a little meeting. And, uh, I think with counselling service people, uh, or switchboard people. And we're talking about this American thing, this thing that was happening in the U. Um, and you know, HIV. But, I mean, I can remember what we call it then and they were like, This thing is going crazy, you know? You need to be aware of this. And that was you know, that was when we, you know, that was sort of when we started some of that, um that work as well. [00:07:00] So that would have been what, around 80 83 84 I think. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. So? So like it literally was just really alive, you know? And, you know, there were lots of great relationships, lots of great networks. We had some really nice stuff with the the the Dykes. You know, we, you know, kind of. There were these really sort of interesting alliances of, you know, they were You know, a lot of they were, like, radical and separatists and stuff like that. And then we would on on particular things, and it was just a Really I thought [00:07:30] a really interesting time, you know, I got I can't remember when. Um, do you mind if we go all over the place a little bit? Um, yeah, because, um, because no. No, because it must have been when I was with Neil because I married a separatist, Um, who was a She was a refugee from green and common. You know, the lot of the women from the UK came out here or came out to New Zealand because of their fears about their nuclear stuff and was one of them. And so I married her [00:08:00] to give her residency, and, um, you know, it was like this. It's a very funny thing because she was. She and her mates were like they were serious separatists. And then we had this this wedding where they were all in the only dress they could find. Um, and the marriage celebrant was who was Who was a woman. She had no idea what was going on, but she was very clear. She knew very well this was There was something going on. And, um, and we had I. I don't know where they are, but we had these great photos where we did the, um the [00:08:30] traditional wedding photos. And then we had the alternative wedding sets where me and Neil and, um all of the, um And I think we took, they had I think there might have been drag involved, I think somewhere. But, um, you know, all of that sort of stuff. And then, um, we're trying to do all that stuff about, uh, her getting citizenship. And they were very suss because she was about 35 you know, And I was 20 or something, and there was this whole thing about, you know, why was I marrying this woman who was older than me, and, um, it was quite handy because we were able [00:09:00] to say, My my family didn't just didn't approve. Therefore, they kept my family right out of it. Um, but because she was a separatist, I wasn't allowed in your house. And, um, you know, you have to do all this thing of Oh, what colour is your toothbrush and all that sort of thing. And, um, you know, we we had to do these tests of, you know, and what sort of you know, some of those in case we were asked those sort of questions. But as it turned out, you know, in New Zealand at that time, most of that was about keeping Polynesian people out. So, you know, we were both white, and [00:09:30] they, you know, they were worried about, you know, they were like, they they they thought it was a bit dodgy, but I don't think they thought that much about it. You know, she was sort of middle class. I was middle class, so it was wasn't a big deal for them. So what What year was this? Oh, must have been 83 84. Um, because when I was yeah, because I was love with Neil, and, um, we didn't I. I got divorced, um, to come over here because my father made my father, [00:10:00] found out about it and kind of went completely ballistic and basically said that I had to get divorced before I could leave the country, you know? So that was very roundabout, but I think kind of I think the the it just was it just an amazing time to be involved, you know? And, um, I thought it was a really powerful community, and it sort of worked for me. And, um, there was, you know, Wellington was always very, um, quite stratified in terms of, you know who was where and social and political and, you know, and, um, the uni [00:10:30] gays and, you know, it was always quite stratified. And, you know, it was just a sort of, like, an interesting mix for me, you know, and learning a lot. And, um, you know, kind of a particularly on broader politics, because the after the tour, um, there was this big deal after the tour about all the Maori activists sort of going Well, hang on. How come you spend all this time about South South Africa and you don't talk about, you know, Maori here. And that was a big you know, a lot of us thought that was a big, big deal and, you know, kind of a lot of awareness raising and, you [00:11:00] know, big fights and arguments and that, I think, moved things on a lot, you know? Yeah. Just taking you back to the 19 seventies. And, um, I just want to kind of get an idea of what it was like for, um, a young gay person in Wellington. What? You know what? What kind of things were on offer, You know? What did you do? How did you meet people? Um I mean, there was nothing on offer. Really? Um, so when did I [00:11:30] I was You know, I, um I got a sexually acted pretty early. Probably about 13 or 14. Um, and that was all beats. Um, and then, um, we were the beats library. Wellington Library. Um, was mostly it. I think I kind of And there was a sauna. I'm not sure about the town hall, and I can't remember when. I. I think I might have gone there. I might [00:12:00] have gone there like, once or, you know, like and freak and not gone back or something for a long, you know, for a long time. So and then, um you know, I I met. You know, I got to know a few a few guys over, um, over a period of time, but the visibility was, like, completely zero. Like I can remember the first time. And I think it was about 77 the first time I ever saw two New Zealand guys on TV. And, um, Robin Duff. Would that be right? Robin, I think Robin Duff was [00:12:30] one of them. Um and, you know, kind of just been amazed. Amazed. And, um, I think that was about 77 or 78. And all those those memories, I got all those real and I remember seeing I think that good civil servant was on TV, and I remember there was this elaborate out about how much I wanted to see it, but how? I had to not let anybody know. I wanted to see it, and it was like, you know, well, maybe we could watch that, Or maybe we could watch something else. And, um, you know, I don't [00:13:00] think Do we have a video. I don't think we had a video. So it was just this thing. It was like this thing on TV, and I was desperate to watch it. And But, you know, I think maybe my brother-in-law wanted to watch rugby or something like that. And I can't remember where it how it ended up. But I remember that, particularly about naked civil servant. And, um And then there was that place in there was that place on the corner of Cuba Street and the sort of like the red light, you know, the red light. Sort of. Yeah. Yeah. So there was that and there was a There was a shop [00:13:30] on the corner, like a card shop, and he had this under the table. Gay porn? Yeah. And, um, you know, it was like, you know, sort of like, kind of if you knew where to look. It was, like, you know, kind of had and that was, you know, you know, I think that would have been, um, same sort of. Maybe I would have been 14 or 15. Something like that. Yeah. So it was all incredibly, you know, incredibly. Um and, um, think of who else. I mean, in terms of there was a when [00:14:00] I was about in form three, there was a guy I had a bit of a relationship with, who who was in form three. And, um, I wasn't sort of, you know, I wasn't particularly, you know, kind of sort of flamboyant or anything like that. But, um, I just wasn't interested. I wasn't interested in, you know, kind of, um, you know, in in all in sport and stuff. And my father was very, like, kind of, uh I always remember sitting. So [00:14:30] when I went from, um, Saint Marks to Scott sitting, um, with him at the principal at Scott's and him saying, um my father's father said, Oh, you know, he spends too much time with girls, you know, And the and the principal was like they had this knowing look, and it was like, Oh, we'll sort that out, you know? And, um, you know, So it was and, you know, was that sort of school, You know, even though there were a lot of gay teachers there, but I didn't know that they were gay at the time. Um, yeah. So it was that sort of a thing. So, um, I came [00:15:00] out when I was 18, Um, and so that, like I said, when I was at uni, so before then, um, you know, it was already close. I got done by cops a couple of times on beat on the beat one time, sort of really badly, you know, not sort of beaten, but just, you know, like, you know, surrounded and yelled at for, you know, about how they're going to tell my parents and all that. You know how I was about 15. I think, [00:15:30] um, and yeah, so and I can never remember the timing, but I sort of tried to commit suicide at one point, and I think it was after that. Um, and it was just weird, you know, it was a weird later, you know, sort of 5th, 6th, 7th form. Was this weird time of, like, you know, for lots of people of I was starting to be pretty clear what was going on. I've been through, like, you know, So my parents were Presbyterians. Um, fairly [00:16:00] full on. Um, my dad was very full on, and so I, uh, I went through a phase of trying to, You know, I figured what was going on and how to see if I could fix that. And I couldn't do that. And, um, then drink. I was a lot, you know, drank a lot in those last couple of years at school. And, uh, first up at school was one of those, you know, because I did scholarship and stuff like that. So, um, but like, I [00:16:30] was blind drunk the night before my scholarship exam. So I I passed the exams, but I never got scholarships for him or anything like that. And then, um uh, I went to So my grandmother died, I think at the beginning of that year or something of my last year at school. And so I think she left me a couple of $1000 or something. And I went to, uh, like, a three month trip when I left school to Europe, and it was that that, you know, changed a lot. It was even though, like, because I went, you know, even though London wasn't really, you know, in [00:17:00] that sort of 1980 it wasn't, um, particularly open. It was just so much more open, you know, and, um, I went to go to San Francisco. I went to Los Angeles, and I just just this different sort of feel, you know, and I I just came back and I remember coming back and going to uni, seeing all the stuff going on and these guys who I got to know over the years, I was sort of saying to them, So I don't really want, you know, want II. I don't like being like this. What am I gonna do about it? And they were like, Oh, you know, because [00:17:30] they were all old closer to guys and stuff like that. And I thought I didn't think I wanted to do that. And, um then I met, you know, I just sort of started to get into the the uni stuff. Um, and and it all happened very suddenly. It all happened over really over the end of the first term at uni. So, like, kind of like the you know, kind of. I was, you know, I was doing a a double, you know, um, economics law degree going, you [00:18:00] know, going to be a diplomat. And then, um you know, I think for me there was this thing where I decided I didn't want to do law anymore. And that was when I, you know, that was the first time I've ever said to my father I know I'm not doing this, and, um and that was the start of it. Really? So I did that. And then, uh, over that course of that summer holiday of that of that holiday, that term holiday, I just sort of completely flipped. And so I went back the following term, [00:18:30] you know, Pierce earrings covered in badges. And never, really, You know, I, I I've been in that first term with all my school friends and really didn't see them much at all. You know, after that, it was all my gay friends and lesbian friends after that, and and it went on from there. And then I think later on that year, it must have been when the tourists are Maybe I think the two must have been in spring or something. So, um, you know, So then I will kind of got involved in that, and I [00:19:00] I started, um So I left left uni and became a gardener, and, um, and really spent the next years because I was a garden until I left New Zealand. So, you know, really doing the works and then doing all the politics stuff at, um, you know, at night and things like that. And And I I had this amazing boss who was, um you know, um, I'd call him and say I think I've been arrested. So, um and, you know, because I've been going to a demo at [00:19:30] lunch time and and he was OK with that. So, you know, and he was great. And, um, that was just It was just how how it developed. It was like, you know, it really was a lot, a lot like coming home. And the politics just sort of unravelled, you know, before you and all of the linkages, and and, um and so I was down the track, so, you know, we order different bits of it. So Neil and all of them were mostly were doing the student stuff. Um, [00:20:00] I was a lot involved, so I did a lot of stuff around the community centre on the switchboard, and, um really, we went from there and the switchboard. There was a lot of the community centre was where a lot of people did their first coming out. And, you know, so you know, because I was sort of to talk to people and all that sort of stuff, and you know that, you know, people would hang out there for a while and then head off, you know, kind of to wherever and it was. And then I was, you know, with Phil. [00:20:30] And I think all the different people with the archive, where we, you know, you know, Phil was the real driver behind all of that, And, you know, we weren't so much, you know, librarians. But it was more that, you know, it was interesting kind of history history. And it was also it was a place where, you know, you were getting all this amazing stuff from the US, all of these, um, all of those journals and stuff about what was going on in politics in the US and Canada. And, um and it was, you know, just this amazing eye opener. Really? In [00:21:00] the UK. Yeah. So, um, so that it was a real source of that. And, you know, a place to talk about it and you know, the switchboard group was this amazing network, you know, Did a lot of stuff together. Um, you know, you know, we'd go. We do training weekends and do you know, it was a really strong sort of group, and we all were very, you know, we were all very possessive about the community centre, and that was our sort of space and making it good and making it work for people. Yeah, so it was. It was nice. And then, um, then [00:21:30] the two other. So the two things that were going on so there was so HIV was starting to happen. And then there was the politics starting to happen in terms of the law reform, and they both sort of, in a sense, unravelled a little bit differently. So the the HIV stuff really was a bit through it came through the switchboard, you know? So that was sort of the logical thing. Neil Thornton. I think, um, he was a psychologist, and he was one of the people behind, you know, like all the all [00:22:00] of the the the ethical type stuff with the switchboard about, you know, track counselling and their responsibilities. And he took. He took that sort of stuff really seriously. And then Bill was the sort of the bill. Bill Logan was sort of like the strate strategic political sort of brains behind it. And, um, they were They were, you know, kind of, um, a range of people who, you know, kind of We were just all a part of making it sort of, um, you know, kind of making [00:22:30] it work. And in terms of the HIV stuff, Sorry. Before we get on to the HIV stuff, um, with the with the switchboard, Can you tell me, um, just just a wee bit more about the switchboard. Like, what was it there for? Because I think, you know, people growing up now would maybe not have an idea of of the phone. There was no issue at all. Yeah, and I mean, I can't remember how so it's all really low key, like, I think there would be the ad in the paper two or three [00:23:00] nights a week or something like that. And I think it was a I can't remember how many nights it was on. It was on an evening thing. And, um, you know, three or four nights in an evening. And there was this tiny little room, like, probably the size of a bathroom, Um, with a phone in it. So and it was beside the community centre. So you'd be, um you know, you'd be sitting there and it was never a you know, it was never a, you know, constant thing. I mean, you know, kind of, uh, people. Not a lot. They were never We didn't get crazy. [00:23:30] You know, we didn't get crazy calls. We didn't get abuse calls. As I recall, that much, you know, um, you know, there were not quite, you know, not quite sure type calls. And then, um, a lot of, um, you know, a lot of first contact type calls, you know, we met, some of which would be with people who, you know, come down to the community centre and talk and all that sort of stuff, Some of which people just wanted to talk to talk to someone. And, um, [00:24:00] that was all you did. And it was really just about, um, mostly about listening, you know, because it was, um it was pretty heavy. So it was No, it wasn't about safe sex or anything like that. It was just about, you know, it's OK. You know, often it was about, you know, where do I gonna meet someone? Um, but a lot of it was just about It's going to be OK, you know, And, um, you know, Yes, that's right. I'm gay as well. All of that sort of stuff. Yeah, And this is how it was for me. And this is how my parents [00:24:30] are. So it was really, um it was, you know, it was a huge deal for a lot of people. That must be incredibly hard. I'm, you know, trying to put myself back in that position. Where if it wasn't necessarily that visible, if you didn't see people out on the streets and if it was illegal to actually have a, um a good feeling about yourself kind of hard because there was nothing around, you know, there was no visibility. So, um, you know, in terms of and that notion [00:25:00] of because my father was, you know, my my my father, you know? So, um, you know, I came out the the night I came out to him. He sort of said, Well, you know, that's it. Then you obviously doesn't gonna You know, you're not gonna have a life. And, um, you know, I don't have any any expectations of you anymore And that sort of stuff. And my mother was It was, you know, it was probably worse my mother, because my mother said to me, Oh, well, at least your grandparents are dead, you know? So, um, you know, and I loved my grand my grandfather very much, you know? So [00:25:30] it was weird, like I never I could never forget that, You know, that changed over time, But I I could never un hear that, you know? And, you know, that was that sort of stuff. You know, it wasn't that unusual, Those sorts of responses, you know, there was nothing out there for anybody else to see. Um, and so, you know, it was a huge deal. Even someone picking up that phone. We always used to think that that was you know, the fact that someone rang. It took me three times [00:26:00] to go down the stairs, you know, to go there and stuff like that. And, um, we just always used to go, you know, it's huge that you just called, you know, And you didn't hang up or most people would ring once and hang up that, you know, they can call again and stuff, you know? And, um you know, um, I they might or might not tell you their name, all that sort of stuff. But off, you know, so much of it was like, you know, it's probably gonna be OK, you know? And you couldn't do, you know, you couldn't, um, [00:26:30] you know, because you would have not You couldn't say stuff like that about parents. You know, you just you know, if people are like, Oh, should I tell your parents? You know, you would never know how someone's parents might be or anything like that, so you could talk a little bit about how it was for, you know, I could talk a little bit about how it was for me that I had friends like me as well. But, um, you know, you know, it was really hard to, you know, you couldn't make promises to anyone about how what it was going to be like, you know, for them, particularly if they weren't in Wellington, you know, if they were in or, you know, they weren't in Wellington. And, um [00:27:00] because then who knew? Really? And I think that's why things like uni uni and is still, you know, uni groups and stuff like that. It was just It's that thing of escape, you know? You know, people come to a big city, they come somewhere different, and they have a licence to do some different stuff, you know, and away from the surveillance. Yeah, So was gay switchboard. Uh, was that the kind of first port of call for, um, people talking about HIV? It turned into it because, um, [00:27:30] my memory is a little bit hazy on this sort of stuff. So I remember Bruce and, um, the other guy coming and I was figuring out we need to do something. And Neil Thornton was very much part of that. And Bill Logan was very much part of that. And, um, Phil Parkinson was part of that because he was getting all of this stuff from the US. You know, um, and Neil through because I think Neil worked at Wellington Hospital so somehow or other, he was getting some sort of connection to that through some of the doctors because they then, um, So we then start, I think it was a [00:28:00] AN. I think a support network was what the first thing we did. And, um, it was really with us starting to think about what? What might we need to do? Because I remember. I think we did some training on, and it was a It was The idea was it was a a caring type thing. Um, but the first thing that ended up happening, So it was when I was 21. So Gary, pretty sure, Gary. So he came. My first practical experience was he came back from Sydney. [00:28:30] Uh, very sick. Uh, and his parents were just awful, just terrible. So he came back to his parents with his parents, and they were terrible. So, um, I ended up, you know, he was about my age. So I ended up sort of hanging out with him, so it was more like a, um and it ended up being a bit more like a so in Australia. In Australia, we have a thing called which is more like a friendship thing than a personal care type thing or a health care thing. And, um, he was [00:29:00] No, he was He was thin, but he wasn't, like super sick. I mean, it was It must have been if I was 21 and it must have been 84 or something like that. And, um, I I'm pretty sure so Wellington Hospital, they got up at that. Whatever that ward was, I think they were looking after stuff, but there wouldn't have been much around to to to to do it. And, um, yeah, so and it was mostly of us out, but I was hanging out and, um [00:29:30] what ended up So he ended up committing suicide. Yeah, because, um his his family Really? You know, I mean, I think II I was I went away and he committed suicide while I was away. Um, and and then I think that was like, No, I don't get start to get a little bit hazy in terms of what was happening because most of the HIV stuff was actually happening in Auckland. You know, that was where the aids I always think of it as yids trust [00:30:00] the first thing because Bill was on that, and he, um, on the first one, and, um, and it was very much driven out by, um, Bruce Burnett and those guys in in in Auckland. So and that was where my thought was happening. You know, um and so it was really the politics was all playing out in Auckland, you know, around, you know, government and all that sort of stuff. And, um, so I sort of, like, lost a little bit of of track with that because I got [00:30:30] I was pretty. So then So there was that it was happening. And then there was the law reform happening as well. And so, you know, kind of I was pretty wasted by, you know, by the end of all of that, you know, particularly by the edge of it by by Gary. And when he, um, died because it was just I don't know, he was just like, you know, this is my age and all that sort of stuff, you know? Yeah, I was gonna ask. I mean, as a 21 year old, how do you cope with with not only his death, but also this this this [00:31:00] thing that that nobody knows where it's coming from? Yeah. Yeah, I can still see those sort of, you know, those conversations we had about, you know, what is this thing and what we're going to do and what's it going to do? And and we just It was weird. We all we just knew. We just knew it was going to be terrible. Partly because we were seeing this stuff in the US and just this sense of complete powerlessness, you know? And, um how what? Yeah. Yeah. And it had, um cause even then, I mean, [00:31:30] I remember Bill saying kind of really early on because, you know, Bill was saying, you know, Scarlett weird. You know, he was He was He was such a serious trot and all that sort of stuff. And, um and I remember him sort of saying, Oh, well, you know this. So this has got, you know, and it's got blood, and it's got death and stuff, so we're fucked, you know? You know, and and we're in the middle of it all, you know, because that, you know, nothing was there was no sense around the African stuff at all at that stage, you know, that was a and all of that sort of thing. And, [00:32:00] um, I just think it just change, starting to change the way you think about sex, you know? And it's interesting now, um, sick. Just because we're very involved in advocacy around prep, and it's fascinating now to hear young gay guys go. I've had sex for the first time ever without thinking about HIV, you know? So to me, this it's this huge [00:32:30] circle thing, you know? Um, yeah, yeah, but, um, back in it was just you could just see this, these clouds, you know, And you could see the way it was playing out in the US. And so there was that, and there was I mean, we didn't have the awareness around, you know, the US, right? You know, all the politics of us playing out and there wasn't the business, you know, we weren't asking those sorts of things about our government. It was very much, you know, this how we gonna help this guy, you know, And that [00:33:00] notion of just this, You know, this threat, this this huge threat. So how does that then feed into law reform? Because it's happening around the same time, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, And so this is where it starts getting a little bit tainted by, you know, hindsight and stuff around. Um, because I think we saw law reform. You know, we saw AIDS as being, um you know, it's pretty fatal for law reform, as in, you know that they, you know, they didn't like [00:33:30] us beforehand. Now, you know, they're really not gonna like us, and, um and that was probably true. I mean, that was, you know, the Salvation Army with them, you know, that was you know, their line was, you know, you will just unleash this. You know, this in this, um, plague on us. Um, and so I I just had this vision of all of these meetings in the, um, in the Dorian, um, these big sort of town hall meetings about strategy and things. And, you know, Alison [00:34:00] and Bill were the big drivers of that sort of stuff about, you know, we should take these lines, and we should take and, uh uh, you know, Mayor Fran, Fran Wild. You know, those sort of people about, you know, kind of what's the what's gonna what's gonna work? Um, you know, because we had um, you know, Keith Hay, we had all that petition stuff, Um, and, you know, it was it was really like a you know, it really seemed like a hearts and minds thing, you know? And, you know, there were not many politicians [00:34:30] were stepping up, you know, Um and it was, um you know, it was very it seemed very, very touch and go, you know, And and yet in the middle of all of that, there was still, you know, the, you know, the the the whole coming out, You know, it it it it it was another, you know. So I think those things are sort of like, you know, you get a blast of a big catalyst and something and, you know, you get a few years of something out of that, and I think we were in sort of like the second [00:35:00] last of that by about 84 85 or something from from an earlier one. And, um, so you know, the energy, you know, energy. A lot of young guys and women coming out, and uni has been a real hub of that, um, starting to see some of the schools as Well, you know, um um and that was where a lot of it, because, you know, there was remember all of the how cautious the teachers were and how cautious the [00:35:30] public servants were and all that sort of stuff about getting involved and being seeing involved, and, you know, and it was, um and, yeah, there were those of us who were like, Fuck it, You know, we can do that, you know, did that. And then, um, there were a lot a lot of people who were doing all the stuff in behind because that was how it could work for them. It's really interesting. Uh, you talk about the catalyst and then that that kind of energy goes on for years later because, um, often I hear people talking about 85 86 law reform. [00:36:00] That that was it just happened in those at that time, not thinking that there were many activists in the seventies and earlier that were pushing for these things to happen. So they weren't necessarily gay activists, but they might have been activists. And then it was some some point, you know, like feminists who were able to become, you know, to talk about, you know, in the late seventies to talk more about being lesbians and then come out. And, you know, I think things converged a little bit as well. [00:36:30] So what do you think That the catalyst was for that energy in in the in the mid eighties? What was what happened before that? I'm not quite sure. I think I think it was a bit about land rights. And I think it was a bit about the tour and stuff I think there was, um so many people were so, uh, affected by that. I mean, you know, particularly, you know, people like me who never, you know, had been on the wrong side of the law and then being in a you know, I remember me and [00:37:00] all of these, all of us who lived in that flat and on the terrace together. You know, in a thing Where with the cops with batons. And it was like, you know, we're middle class kids, you know? And, um, I think some of that you don't you don't undo that. And, you know, some people went on and got more and more radical. Some people didn't and didn't went off and you know that was enough for them. But I think, you know, probably there are enough to keep it going and to and to keep pushing it a bit, you know? And, you know, we [00:37:30] had a lot of energy, you know, we had a lot of energy, you know that? Uh um, just because it was all new to us, you know, And we could just And there's been so much creative stuff When you think about the nuclear stuff the, um, the stuff as well and all of those, like, I just I was just looking at it the other day. Someone else? Oh, no, this climate change, there's a big demos around climate change here, and they've got the same stuff that we used to do around the, um the ANZUS where those making this huge paper mache [00:38:00] cranes and dead babies and all that sort of stuff. You know, there was this amazing creativity and this huge energy, and, um, people are really passionate about it, and I think, you know, kind of that a lot of the same sort of people did the law reform stuff because, you know, a lot of the time in, in political movements, You don't you know, queer people. We we are just, you know, we're there. We're not making a big deal about queer stuff. We're just there, you know, with because I've I've always been, you know, I mean, and part [00:38:30] of, you know, all of these different political marches where you know we're all there. And we know that there's all these fags over here, and but, you know, we're here because it's a union march or, you know, and that that, you know, I. I think we have always had that, um and that my experience is that that that energy and that creativity, you know, um, there's a lot of power in that. Yeah, And it seems that in the in the mid eighties, the the visibility just went through the roof. Yeah, [00:39:00] Absolutely. Absolutely. And, um, just I wonder whether it was because I I can remember the, you know, like, we were also very, very angry, you know? And we were sort of I think we were starting to be angry about HIV stuff, but not, you know, it hadn't hit. But you know of just that thing about not wanting to take it, you know, because I can remember. Um, so Neil was Neil was diabolical, you know Neil Costello. So he's, [00:39:30] um, Irish Catholic family. And he put them, uh, there's the other people will have talked about it. You know, there's this. There's this I can't remember. There's this photo around, but all I we all have this image of us head where we we had to we had to almost drag him off this little old Salvation Army lady who was on a you know, who was collecting petitions, you know, And he was he just, you know, just like and you know, he would. He was just, you know, he, um you know, really strict, you know, [00:40:00] Catholic upbringing, all that sort of stuff. And he just sort of like, er er it out of it, you know? And, um, it was a lot of that, you know, kind of. There were a few a few people here. We we were just sort of keep in the background because we knew we could We had to keep an eye on them, you know? And so so you know, there. I think passion is a lot of it, you know, and that, um, in terms of why it was particularly 85 86? Um, not sure. Not sure. I mean, you know, it's that thing about why, you know, why did people decide it was the time to do it, you know, And whether it was about what was going on this where because [00:40:30] what? It was it here. Here. It was about 85 I think was law reform. Um, yeah. And, um, you know, kind of it was it was a really big deal. And, you know, having lived here for a long time, I, I you know, the kind of the I really understand the back and forth, you know, kind of thing about New Zealand and Australia particularly, um, you know, kind of the gay thing. I mean, you know, we we are very clear around. You know how many New Zealand gay men are here? And how many New Zealand HIV positive men are here. [00:41:00] So you know, we and and how many, you know, I mean, come back and forth, you know, So it's it's a very much a thing, and, um, probably, you know, the the, um you know, the travel. For me, it was like going to Europe and going, actually. Well, the world's not like Wellington, and you can do other stuff, you know? And, um, if I hadn't gone, if I had just gone straight to uni, I'm not sure that it would have been the same, you know? So why, why Is, and was Sydney such a a draw card for for for gay men from New Zealand? [00:41:30] I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I think kind of, Um I mean, for me, Um III. I just knew I needed to leave Wellington and I. I was mostly thinking about going to Auckland, and then, um my best friend, Karen. She was living over here. I came here and it was like, Wow, you know, And, uh so I just went back and said, I'm going to go to Australia, you know, And, um, I think there's lots of, you know, I think, and also it's easy [00:42:00] for a long time, you know, you could go back and forth, you know, it wasn't didn't have to be a permanent thing. I just sort of think it's that, you know, kind of and to be a and for me, I wanted to be a little fish I. I felt like, you know, I wanted to be a little fish somewhere bigger, you know? And, um, just, um yeah, so that was why you know, the Auckland thing. Um, but then just realising how much more, you know, kind of, um, possibilities were here. Yeah. So back to 85 law reform [00:42:30] and AIDS was actually used by both sides in the debate for law reform. How did how did the pro law reformers use use the topic of AIDS? It's really I mean, it was really about the, um being able to meet, you know, to be able to reach people. You know, that hiding all of this stuff was, you know, like, kind of, um, you know, we had the notion of, um there was no gay press or anything like that. The notion of how you would reach people [00:43:00] that, you know, basically, we had to reach people to talk to people about safe sex, and we couldn't do that, you know? And, um, you know, the all of that stuff was illegal, you know, going out on beat up because you know, all of that sort of stuff was, um, you know, kind of, um, really hard to do. And I think so. What we started to get was alliances with the doctors who were going to who were saying, Well, obviously, you know, we've got to stop this thing, and this is how, and, you know, they weren't lawyers and things, but, um, it was we were sort of saying, Well, what's this? Is the big threat. And, you [00:43:30] know, they, they they, um you know, the the implicit threat was to heterosexuals. You know, it was like, if you're not careful, this will escape from gay men into heterosexuals. And, um, you know, and I've always I always thinking, and I had people I've had bureaucrats tell me here that it in their mind it was the deal. You know, the deal was you know, we do you you know, you the the objective is we'll keep it. You know, we just have to keep it within the gaze, you know, [00:44:00] And then, um, and what they can There's a term that they use in in, um, epidemics around, not containment something around that, but you know, implicitly it was like, You know, we just have to make sure it doesn't spread from from gaming, you know, in our sort of countries, from gaming to heterosexuals. And, you know, So the other side of the deal was so we'll do stuff to help you sort it out, you know? And so that was where, you know, being, you know, kind of in a sense, you know, like legalisation. Um, the notion of community controlled sort of services, the notion that we'd be the ones who do [00:44:30] it, Um, partly because they didn't want to be seen to be doing it. All of those deals were were made, and they were implicitly about you. Just look after it and don't let it into the heterosexual community. I think we knew that in a funny sort of a way. And, um, you know, I don't think anyone would ever have articulated it, as you know, hard as that then, but it was I. I was stunned. It wasn't that long ago that a very senior bureaucrat told me that they were quite explicit about that being the you know, they didn't call it the deal, [00:45:00] and, you know, but that you know that was the object. You know, we'd contain it to the to the gay men. And, um, you know, so in in some weird sense, that was a success to them. You know, what were some of the tactics used by the kind of antireformers? So how did they try? And oh, I mean, a lot of it was just It was about playing around with public opinion. Um, you know, they were they were using, um, you know, they were using AIDS as, um, you know, this is what happens. You know, this is what you know, kind [00:45:30] of because the, um so they were, you know, they were using sex. They were using gay men and sex and that just somehow, um, that the laws would keep a, um, kept what kept it all under control, you know, And, um, there was a petition, you know? I mean, uh, kind of that's the main thing that sits in my head. Is that petition? You know, um, because I know that there was also, you know, there's a lot of TV stuff, and there was a lot of local a local organising by, you know, because [00:46:00] you just had the sense that we're in the cities, and you just had the sense that, you know, it was It was, you know, like the Salvation Army. And, um, you know, bits of the national party. All of these people were, you know, local, the organising against it. And, you know, kind of every so often we would get some sort of reminder that, you know, we were a little bit naive thinking that you know what you know, Wellington City people thought was what everyone else thought and what Auckland City people thought was. You know, every so often we get a reminder about that. Um, just, you know, [00:46:30] was nowhere near like it is now. But, um, just every so often there'd be a percentage, and you'd just go, Wow, you know, um or, you know, it was the It was the licence that people had to say stuff that was just, you know, so outrageous, you know, on TV and the poli politicians felt that they could, you know, that they could you know that, um, you know, they were representing a heterosexual electorate, and so they could say all of this sort of stuff was was quite astounding. Yeah. Do you have any memorable petition stories? [00:47:00] No. Neil, Neil, Neil, Neil is that is the main one or the other. The other one was that box. The box is when they delivered it to Parliament, you remember? And, um and just being so frustrated because afterwards someone told us that most of the boxes were empty, you know, and just having always regretting that, you know, someone didn't just kick a ball at them and knock them over or something, you know, Um, but just, you know, the and the and And just knowing, you know, how much theatre had gone into it from them. You know, we did theatre a lot as well and [00:47:30] stuff, but, um, just knowing all of that stuff, you know, um, because there was a box per electorate wasn't there. I think it was It was like, Yeah, they just see that there was a huge wall of them, you know? And, um and there was this whole thing of, you know, stacking them and all that. And we were We were going insane. You know, the cops, you know, we were gonna do that, but the cops, you know, kind of in between us and them, but just the way they they stacked it up and did this whole thing about delivering it to Parliament, You know, um, I don't have many. I mean, I think [00:48:00] those the stickers we did, I always remember they always I always liked that. It was, uh, must have been the year of the, um of the petition. So we did those these stickers that said, You know this, You know, this this house doesn't It was for the door to door collection, and I just sort of said, you know, this house doesn't get money to, um to be or something like that and had a And we did the, um And we had the, um, you know, a cross with the the red line through it, and I remember just to drive people crazy, you know? And I loved it, you know? Kind of. You know, we just put them up everywhere, [00:48:30] you know, um and that's the main thing. And then, um, the only other thing I was because I was thinking about it the other day, Another one, I think I think I'm sure I've got somewhere was, um the other thing that Neil was fantastic, you know? So Pink Triangle was the other thing. That was, you know, in the middle of all of this, and we it was again. It was like, um was the sort of thing that we, um Gavin was mostly Gavin Young was mostly the person behind it all, and Phil to an extent. But, um, every so often, we just sort of throw ourselves [00:49:00] into the middle of it. And I remember, um, I have this vision of, um of Douglas Douglas Jenkins, who was my best friend. And, um, I can't remember. I think it was a cover photo for one of the law, you know, in that law reform time of And then we turned into a poster that and Neil Neil did it. And, um, it was Douglas in a habit. It's this beautiful photo. He kind of had a big moustache and all this sort of stuff, and they did it at Street, and it just was amazing. And I think it was I think I think it became a poster [00:49:30] as I can't remember, I can't remember what the, um, the caption was, but and I'm pretty sure it was became the front page of Pink Triangle as well. Um, think that was a weekly monthly, I think went for years. It was an amazing magazine. Yeah, Yeah, in terms of because it was where that you know, So Phil would be getting all of the stuff in the US, and all of the new stuff would go in there, and there was a lot, you know, they have a great you know, kind of. You know, a lot of it [00:50:00] was about, uh, local journalism as well, you know, And, um, it was really well respected as a as a as a thing in, um, and had a lot of can't remember how many, you know, I can't remember. It was quite a big thing for a while, you know? And, um, I think all through the eighties at least. Yeah. Yeah. And I've also heard you on BBC radio. Yeah. Yeah. So you were kind of out there, weren't [00:50:30] you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, we did. Um, so we set that up, and that was I mean, ABC was very much about the law reform. That was about us getting out there. And, um, the access radio people were fantastic because, um, Robin Nathan, I think it's Robin Nathan. So she was She was the part of, um, radio, and she she trained us all up. And, um, you know, and we just used to, um, you know, we'd we'd just rock up and they'd just give us They'd just sort of, like, you know, give us all this equipment [00:51:00] and say, if you go and we'd go and, you know, do interviews and record, you know, and, um and that that I'm trying to remember Dennis Altman came over, uh, must have been maybe 84. And so we tried to We were trying. It was like we tried to. We just wanted to do everything. And so So we got stuck. We We had this study about our histories, you know? And so Denis came over, and, um and we all learn how to do all histories, you know? And so we had all this stuff and we'd go and do that. And Phil was [00:51:30] I think Phil was kind of, um you know, I think we took on too many things, you know, But, um, it you know, we did a few and um, And I just, you know, kind of It was that time where, you know, there are trying to trying to because something had happened and it might have been, Yeah, it was when I think, you know, some of the older guys had died, and there was a sudden sense of what had gone, you know, because no one had ever talked to them about stuff. And so that was what kicked all that off. Yeah, And ABC was because, um I can't remember. [00:52:00] I'm pretty sure there was Les lesbian radio. I think it was. There were two lesbian radio and BBC, and, um, you know, we were pretty good, but, um, we were pretty dizzy at points, you know, and I kind of every so often, you know, we'd all had a had a really bad night the night before. And, you know, we've been half an hour playing playing records and, you know, but, um, it was great, you know, and a lot of us. Um, you know, we kept it going for quite a long time. And, um, you know, and, um, like, you know, a lot of people listened in, you know, [00:52:30] because there was, You know, radio was a thing. And, you know, kind of, um, just there was so much to talk about, you know, so much to say. Yeah. And also, when you think you know what other ways were there of getting your message out to a broad group of people. I mean, without the Internet or cellphones or anything, you know, and and, you know, TV we could never do anything on TV. Um, and, um, the Dominion. I remember the Dominion was really conservative because we used to have all these battles with them about the ads for the switchboard, whether, you [00:53:00] know, I never saw it from the church, decided that they weren't going to run the ad because it had gay in it. So so with the other words that you could have used rather than say, gay switchboard was But we didn't want to, you know? Yeah. And, um, you know, it was just a classified ad, you know? It wasn't, you know, it was about that big, you know, and I would always amazed me that people found it, you know? But it was that thing that, you know, people were, you know, voracious to to find something like that. And, you know, we I remember just how how important the ad in the phone [00:53:30] book was, you know, and getting it right and making sure it was, you know, I used to agonise over, you know, how could we make it and all that sort of stuff, you know, And I think I recall I think we had a few back and forth with the with with the phone, whatever telecom or whatever it is about about about that as well. I can't remember. I think I think we did. Um, yeah. So, you know, we did so, like, you know, say there was just this huge energy and, you know, we were just it was hoping to start to do this thing, you know, and, [00:54:00] um, the, um but then you know, kind of people, you know, like HIV graduate, took, took over. And you know, my bill and Neil and people like that. It was just, you know, it started to take over their lives, you know, and particularly the you know, the politics of it and the, you know, the AIDS trust and all of that sort of stuff. Um became a big thing. And my and the law reform stuff, the law reform stuff out of, you know, kind of, um, that was, um you know, kind of the a lot of that. So [00:54:30] there was the So we, you know, So the the older, you know, like so the bills and the Alison And they were They were they were the ones who would be, you know, kind of dealing with government and, you know, doing it. And so we were the ones who were, like, kind of being rowdy and all of that sort of stuff, you know? And and so this is the flat. And, you know, that's where um and, you know, heaps of people live around, you know, went through it. So Costello and Neil Anderson and, uh, Shane Town [00:55:00] and David Hindley and, um, turned over at various times, you know? But they were They were the people. And then and we had another. So there was another flat up the road on South Street, and there was me and Douglas and David Henley as well, So at various times so so And we were both We were all sort of like, kind of in the middle of all that sort of stuff as well. Um, but, um, yeah, it was because it was so close because I had this image [00:55:30] of it being full when we one of the marches where we we just had helium balloons and the whole, like, literally, the whole house was full of helium balloons. And, um, that we just all had to kind of, like, tie up and then take down to the mat to the to the march. That would have been one of the law reform ones. Um, and then all of those, um, you know, we were doing because we used to do our own art stuff as well. So And John used to do that. John last John was at 50th Street as well, and he, um he he took over the dances and organising all that sort of stuff. So he took over as the student. [00:56:00] The queer student sort of, um uh, officer from Neil. Maybe maybe a bit after Neil anyway. So and he he was sort of, uh what was he doing? He was an environmentalist. He was a greeny sort of guy, and, um, he he used to screen print the posters for the dancers, and, um and we all know the screen printing was a real thing. And we just, you know, kind of his. I've still got his, um, posters at home, and, um, [00:56:30] you know so and then we post them up all over the place, and then, um, the I just know because because it was always I think, uh, I think because of that stuff with the, um uh, the an, um, thing, you know, we love doing art stuff, you know, And, um, we had to, you know, kind of and just just would love to be out there, because I remember. This is so me and Hamish, he's always reminding me about it. Um, [00:57:00] when we were doing graffiti on the, um, floor, we used to we used to kind of the pink trail was everywhere, you know, And, um and, um, there's this. I used to have a big old car and, um, a big old oxford or something, and, um, you know, there was. We got stopped by the cops. I had a book full of print spray paint, and we're we're we're just kind of kind of gently. You know, it was about one o'clock in the morning on a Wednesday, and, um, we [00:57:30] were we managed to talk away completely out of it. You know, we just come from spray painting a big thing. And, you know, and, um, we were both terrified because, you know, I was never great with cops, really. And, um, we were terrified that they would open the boot. So we were just sort of talking away and chatting away. And Hamish is very good with, you know, very chatty and stuff like that. And they just were like, you know, they didn't open the boot. Sorry. It was very funny. OK, so September, uh 1986 was when the arson attack happened [00:58:00] on the the the archives. Law reform actually passed. Uh, sorry. The the homosexual law Reform bill. Part of it passed ninth of July 1986. So it was after. Yeah. So can you recall what you were doing on the night that it passed? I was in the in the upstairs gallery. Yeah. Yeah. And we were on one side, and the Christians were on the other side. And I remember the spookiest thing was that, um, in the middle of it [00:58:30] was this kid I grown up with, you know, like John from the side, who literally, since I'd been about, you know, like like, 10, 15 years. You know, we live, um, live next door. And he was on the Christian side, and I was on this side, and it was just like, fuck you know, because, um after I came out, I lost, you know, tracking and all that sort of stuff. And, um but, uh, I was just I'm trying to It's funny. I can't I can just I can see it. I can't remember what it felt like. And I think, um, [00:59:00] it was never sure, you know, it wasn't certain. We already know. We didn't know that it was going, And, um, so it was incredibly intense, you know? And, um, you know, because not many of the politicians, actually, you know, kind of made a big deal or coming out in a in a sense, there was a big grey in the middle, you know, like, kind of there was the wilds and the ones who were I can't remember who was. You know, there were There were there were clearly supportive ones, and they were the clearly opposition ones. But, you know, mostly it was [00:59:30] the ones in the middle. So it was, um And you just knew what had been going on with them in terms of everyone ringing them and harassing them and their electors and all of that sort of stuff. And everyone We did this whole thing about everyone getting their family activated and talking to everybody they knew and stuff. So it was. It was It was It was always close. You know? You know, we we was It was it was never certain. So it was It was just this amazing sort of, um know, you know, and, um but it's I, I sort of Yeah, it's one of those [01:00:00] things I can just see. You know, I can just sort of see it. And, um, I was I was my head. It was always about Fran. Really? You know, just about you know, she was just so amazing in in the middle of all of it, Really. And some of the shit she got was some of the shit she got and all of that, you know? And just, um Yeah, just absolutely resolute. She was. Yeah, but also thinking, I mean, seeing some of the the the clips with yourself and Neil on [01:00:30] TV and just the kind of shit that you guys were getting and the courage it must have taken to actually be out there in public saying this is who we are. And actually, we're going away. Yeah. True. True. You know, kind of, Um, yeah, but we were running on, you know, We we were running on, you know, years of, you know, I mean, and probably it's not surprising that it was, you know, you know, years of that, you know, Because, like, I was 15 before, I was allowed to not go to church every Sunday, you know, So, you know, and Neil were pretty [01:01:00] conservative Catholics, you know? So we had a lot of we had a lot of anger and energy to come like to work with, and, um, So it was it it it. And it was really just that thing of, um, like a revelation, you know, kind of, um, it's funny. I always I always did really think about it. You know, I you know, I always I liked calling it Gali because that was what it felt like, you know, And, you know, and and just as it changed over, you know, kind of, um, over time it became [01:01:30] a little bit more corporate and, you know, all that sort of stuff. I just you know, I always remember how you know how how we started off with it, you know, And, um, how profound that was. And you know this, you know, kind of how different it is, you know, kind of, um, you know, when when you know coming out is about, you know, going into your first bar or a bit old school about all that sort of stuff, you know? But, um, you know, as opposed to, you know, a place which is about, you know, affirming, You know, you know who you are and everything like that. Yeah. [01:02:00] And I think we you know, because, I mean, that was the and even, you know, cause cause there was that, um because, you know, from my perspective, you know, kind of economic liberation one because, you know, you know, it was about, you know, the other. The other. Um, you know, it wasn't So it wasn't as explicit in the in the, um in the law reform stuff. But, you know, there was this thing about, you know, kind of gaming as consumers, you know, I dawning on people that are actually in spend [01:02:30] money if we let them, kind of, you know, you know, out of their closets and stuff like that. And and, you know, the fact that they really won in the end is what I believe. And and, um, you know, we saw, you know, we were the ones that, you know, kind of, um I remember the really the really rich guys, um, were the ones who would go to a gym, you know, And it's all that sort of stuff, you know, And just the beginnings of all of that sort of stuff about, you know, you know, you know ourselves as commodities [01:03:00] and, you know, all that sort of thing. And and, um, all those things that no one you know, class and those sort of things that people don't really talk about so much now. But, um, that the notion that there might have been another way and that, you know, in many places there's still, you know, that's that's still there. But it's just submerged under, um, you know, under you know us as a commodity, you know? Yeah. And then you know what? Just but also the things that I mean, that's a that's a a harsh thing about it. But the thing that I love, [01:03:30] uh, I never get tired of in all of this stuff around gay marriage, even though, you know, the whole gay marriage thing. I've got a whole sort of ideas about the notion that every time I see one of those photos of, you know, a 97 year old lesbian with her 96 year old partner who's been together for 70 years and, um and the notion that you know, kind of in the eighties, you know, it was very common for people to go. Well, obviously these guys can't can't manage a relationship. And, you know, that's that was a part of the whole [01:04:00] thing was Oh, you know, they can't do that, so they'll just this little be out of control and just the fact that you never hear that anymore, you know? And, um, you know, whatever I think about the gay marriage debate. That's one of the things that it's done, you know? And it's changed what being a young gay man is in terms of, you know, thinking about what? What? You know what your life might be, you know, And I'm constantly meeting guys who are, like, you know, kind of Why can't I do that? And, you know, like, who are completely, um, have the same, you know, expectations [01:04:30] about it all, you know, not not much awareness about where it came from. But, you know, it's a fantastic thing to see, you know? Yeah, well, I have to say personally, that I'm incredibly grateful for people like yourself and Bill and Alison, Laurie and all of all of you we always talk about we talk about, um, and Neil and I just you know, I so thankful for the energy that you will put in because, um, you know, [01:05:00] I've certainly had a better life for that. And it's also lovely to I mean, my first introduction to Neil Costello was actually when I was photographing the AIDS Memorial quilt in New Zealand, and so it's really lovely now, to be able to kind of, um trace back and and and hear about him and hear about some of the stuff that he's done and see him on film and know that they're not forgotten. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because he's I made a quote from here as well. So he's, um he's in a few different places, so I don't [01:05:30] know about London, you know, But, um yeah, you know that that you know that the the notion of being touched by amazing people, you know, and that's why it's it's important. You know, the older I get, the more important those people are to me just to sort of be around a bit. And, um, yeah, so it's nice. Yeah. We've just, uh, stopped and and started the recorder again. And you were saying when we weren't recording that you'd like to comment on on, um, how [01:06:00] people change over time. I think one of the things I think to that I think we often were unfair on on our parents, you know, and, um, in terms of how they change and, you know, it was pretty, uh, a lot changed with my parents, and the interesting thing for me was quite a lot of it. happened after I left. So, um, so, mom, I mean, I was always fairly open with him or whatever I was doing, and, um, Dad didn't want to talk about it. But mum, you know, always always, you know, kind of would [01:06:30] listen about it and things. And gradually she got more and more involved in it to a point where so she was the go to go to mother, you know, for when people's mothers wanted to talk to someone, you know, And, um, she did she did it a lot, you know? And then it it, um and, uh, it sort of developed to the point where she so I I'm actually positive. And I see her converted [01:07:00] in 94. And, um, I told them in 95 and so she became a bit of a go to for around HIV as well for for parents, too. And, you know, this was all her, you know, kind of, um, you know, we were, you know, kind of while I was there up until 87 I sort of, like, got ended up getting out of the the switchboard because there was so much else going on. But it was a, um it was a big deal, you know, kind of knowing that [01:07:30] and, um, hearing other people talk about her, you know, having you know that they sort of had independent relationships with her about this stuff. And, you know, Bill, you know, kind of knew her and things as well. And the other thing I was always that I always, you know, kind of remembered is So Dad, um, you know, was a late preacher, and our church was Saint Andrews on the terrace. And, um, there is there. They have all these stories. I remember, you know, they've had ministers for years, [01:08:00] and, um, you know, he started off fairly tormented about all of that. But, you know, gradually, you know, you know, worked his way around that, And the thing I remember, it wasn't until ages later that I met one of the young, like, sort of, um, junior priests or whatever you call them. And she told me this story about how dad had gone. So they they have a rainbow church, so they you know, gas and Christians meet there. And so she told me this story about how dad had gone and, you know, sat down and talked with them [01:08:30] about what it was like having a gay son. And he never told me. And, you know, this would have been in the nineties, you know, And, um, you know, and how profound it was for them and stuff like that because, you know, he's a You know, my dad was a fairly serious, frightening guy, and, um and I just I was always startled by that, you know that, Um it was just this thing he did. And they they were very, um, they were both. I think they would do the What do you call it, The supper for the gay lesbian Christian thing. That was, you know, you know, so So where they came from and where they ended up. You know, [01:09:00] I think it was always quite profound. And it's it's a you know, it's a very personal thing for me, you know, because it's my life, you know, that's it doesn't really fit in with other people. But it was that notion of just where, you know, they came such a long way. And, you know, it's not something that I take the responsibility, you know, you know, I might have helped the ones get started, but, um, just where they ended up and, you know, my sister's now you know, she's an elder at the church and she's the same, you know? So, um, I just think, uh, you know, it's about, [01:09:30] you know, the the it's you know about all you know it it It's not just an individual thing. It's you know, it it impacts all of us, and it changes all of us, yeah.

IRN: 953
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/iris_florence_peter_williams.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004391
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089685
TITLE: Iris Florence Peter Williams
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Julie Glamuzina
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 1940s; 2010s; Alison Laurie; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Jonathan Katz; Julie Glamuzina; Kaitaia; Marriage Act (1854); New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF); New Zealand Post Office Directory; Parker and Hulme: a lesbian view (book); Perfectly Natural: The audacious story of Iris Florence Peter Williams (book); Peter Stratford; Peter Williams; Steele Roberts (Wellington); The Women's Bookshop; Unity Books; archives; birth certificate; courts; crime; discrimination; divorce records; electoral rolls; family; health; identity documents; marriage; marriage certificate; marriage records; newspapers; outing; psychiatric treatment; relationships; transgender; twins; women; writing
DATE: 31 October 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Author Julie Glamuzina talks about her book Perfectly Natural: The audacious story of Iris Florence Peter Williams.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Julie, you've written a book about a person called Iris. Florence Peter Williams. The audacious story. And and this was, um, you You you were able to release this book last year. Can can you give us, um, some background about, uh, why Iris? Florence Peter Williams intrigued you. OK, um, it's a detective story. It was a detective story. Um, it intrigued me [00:00:30] because I knew nothing about, um, the story, except for a profile. So how it came about was, um I was, um, giving a presentation with, um, Alison Laurie, my co-author of, um, Park Park and Hume. A previous book with, uh, that we had done together. And, um, during this present after the presentation, someone came up to me and said, Oh, you and gave me a clipping from a newspaper article, Um, 1945 newspaper article. Um, [00:01:00] uh, report actually not article, but report from Auckland and said, Oh, you might be interested in this. You're interested in history and and, you know, so on. And, um and I read it, and it was about two women who had married in 1945 and they'd been found out, and, um, they actually got married in the Auckland registry in an Auckland registry office, and they were prosecuted because it was an offence against the marriage act. So two women couldn't get married? Of course. [00:01:30] Um, but, um uh, what the The thing was that one of them was, uh, presenting herself as a man. Um, but somehow they'd been chopped in. And when the more details came out about it, um, it was found that, uh, the person who was presenting herself as a man, um, had actually tried to join the forces in 1940 as a man, um, but had been shopped in at that time by her mother, [00:02:00] who said my daughter's trying to join the army to go away to World War Two. And, uh, and this person is is really, you know, my daughter, a woman. So, um, uh, I didn't know who the people were, So when I say detective story I, I only had a profile because they said the during the court case, which was reported in the paper, um, their their actual, um, identification. Um, details were suppressed. So, um, all I knew was that, [00:02:30] uh, it was a woman of 30 marrying another woman of 18. Um, I knew a bit about their background as came out during the court case. Um, so I I wrote an article about about that. But just based on, you know, the the ideas that were presented at that time, Um, and I thought, how am I going to find out? Maybe I'll never find out, but, um, who these people actually were, and I really wanted to find out who they actually were and what happened to them. So, [00:03:00] um, with the profile, I went to the archives and searched the marriage registers until I found a pattern that fitted. And, um, so I knew 30 18, um, 1 was a twin. The other was a, um a labourer. Um, one was, uh, clerical was doing clerical work. Um, so I just trawled through the registrations to marry, um, for 1945 for Auckland for, uh, I think it was July. Um, so [00:03:30] I had a time period and so on, and I went through, and, um and I can still remember today the sort of feeling, um, you know, um, he stood stood up on the back of me of my neck I suppose, um, when I went through and I thought, This is it. This has got to be them. But I still wasn't sure. And, uh, um, when I got so you just see the intention. You don't see all of the details when you get the intention to marry, and you have to get [00:04:00] the actual marriage certificate. Um, so I was pretty sure, but I wasn't totally sure. Uh, when I got the marriage certificate there it was, um, all the details about them and written across it was the, uh, the parties to this were female, um, referral. You know, uh, notifications about this to the registrar general. So this is this is afterwards someone had gone back to that certificate and written a note on it. Correct. [00:04:30] So, like, after someone had complained or correct? Correct. So they actually actually got married. Um, And the reg, all those details were as if they were a man and a woman, and, uh, the marriage certificate was issued to these two people. Um, but, you know, then they found out that they were both women, so the marriage certificate was, you know, didn't hold because it's not legal. it was not legal in 1945. So, um uh, they [00:05:00] were then prosecuted and, you know, is making an offence under the marriage act. Um, and they were, um, sentenced to probation for five years. Three years? Sorry. Both of them were pro. Yep. And, um um, But what was intriguing was that, um, Iris's mother, Iris Florence, born Iris Florence, then later known as Peter Williams. Um, that, uh, Iris's mother was a was a party to the marriage [00:05:30] and knew that they were, You know, that her daughter was presenting as a man, Of course. So she signed it under a false name. You know, the name that they they used. Um, So So that's how it started. And so from there, I knew who the actual people were. And then I tried to trace what happened to, um, Peter Iris. Florence Peter Williams from there, and I did I try. I traced through marriage and divorce registers. Um, I traced through post post office registers. Um, [00:06:00] the you know, when you vote, um, uh, yes. Thank you. And so on to try and trace some movements and so on after and before that. So they they? They? Their registration was annulled as married. Yeah, I don't know. Did they split up? Did you? They were. They were supposed to never meet, and they were supposed to have psychiatric treatment. So, um, as far as I'm aware, they they didn't meet. [00:06:30] Um, after that, um, they may have I don't know. Um, but they they were both working at the same factory in Auckland, and so they were, um uh they lost their jobs. Um, And, uh, after after all this happened, um uh, Peter, um you know, basically I, I think tried to play it cool and try to get through the next three [00:07:00] years with the attention of the authorities. Once the probation period was up, Um, he and his mother went up north to, and they went into, and they made a declaration around, um, Peter's, um, birth certificate. And his mother attested that that had been a mistake. And it actually, um, it was all a mix up and really Iris Florence was really a male, so the birth certificate was actually formally changed. Um, [00:07:30] so that from that point on, he he could, um, uh, be officially a man, right? So they didn't have to produce any medical. Even she just she made an attestation. I believe that she did that with the support of, um, people. Um, and I don't know who those I know who signed that declaration with her, and I haven't been able to uncover the relationship there, but I think that it was, um, a supportive relationship [00:08:00] of either other family or friends. Um, to enable her to do that. Um, because you couldn't do that at the time. Yeah, but you'd found out that the mother had actually earlier. Yes, basically altered totally. Peter, when Peter wanted to join the, um And I've got the, um the documentation from the defence department. Um, So I know for sure it was her mother who did that. Um, but I don't know who outed them in 1945. I suspect it could [00:08:30] have been, um, um, Peter's previous relationship. Um, And she you know, it was a acrimonious split up because he split up with her to be with the woman he married in 1945 so that that would be my suspicion, But I don't have the evidence for that. Yeah. And so, Peter Peter lived as a man. Yes. Yeah. Um, yeah. He lived as a man in the fifties, played it, you know, lived under the radar, got [00:09:00] married, got divorced, got married again, got divorced, um, and then finally met his last partner. And, uh, they had a very happy relationship and, uh, a most supportive and loving relationship. And so, um, I don't have my book here right now, but I like to, um, kind of read the last bit where, um, you know, from someone who is, um, a man, a woman, a child, a daughter? [00:09:30] Um, um, a wife, a husband, um, transgender, lesbian, um, female, not female, Respected, despised, um, loved and much treasured at the end of his life. Um, so to me, it's a wonderful, um, success. Successful life by someone who, uh, had to operate within a very restrictive society and just found their way [00:10:00] to do that. Um, with some fear. So, um yeah, and you you spoke to, um, a couple of partners. I spoke to his first wife who was still alive. Um, but she didn't really want to, um, give me any information or talk about it at all. She simply said, that's water under the bridge, which I thought was a real shame. Um, and I spoke to, um, the the wife's twin brother, [00:10:30] and he gave me a little bit of information, but he again, he was a little bit worried and didn't want to, you know, give speak, You know about it too much. But he did, um, give me information which enabled me to track down where they were both working at the time that they were, um, married and uncovered. Um, and I met his, uh, I didn't meet. I spoke to his last wife. Um, and we asked if she would be involved. Um, but and she saw [00:11:00] a copy of the manuscript and so on. But she didn't want to be involved because, um, she didn't want to be exposed. So I've changed some names in the book to protect people living. Um, but the facts of the case are true. How long were you working on the book for? Well, I was given the article in about, uh I think it was about 1995 or six. And then I just parked it, um, because I was busy and I couldn't [00:11:30] see a way forward with it. So I wrote an article without finding out who they were. Um, but the more I thought about it, the more I thought, Oh, I really want to find out what happened to this person. Because it really happened. Like it's not a made up story. It really happened. And someone, if there was a person like Iris, Florence, Peter Williams, there are more people. Yeah, so it's just an example. Um, I picked it up again in the 2004 [00:12:00] or five. Something like that. Um, and I. I basically wrote it up in 2008. Um, but it's taken some time to have to get access to records because some are closed for a certain time. And it took a It took time to, um, get responses to lines of inquiry. If you if you know what I mean. So the elapse time was quite quite a bit, um, and then, uh, took about a year to get from a manuscript point to publication. [00:12:30] Yeah. So? So when did Peter die? 1993 1993. So you really started looking pretty much straight after you, so you wouldn't have known that. No, no, not at the time. And, um, when I found out when he died, I thought, Oh, damn. I would really have liked to have approached him to see if he would speak with me. How old would he have been when he died? At 78? Um, and once you've, um, published [00:13:00] the book, now it's out there. Has anyone sort of contacted you since about Peter or or other people? No, no, no, they haven't there. Yeah, and kind of have a lot of wealth of information out there about other people, like you say, living who have lived like that or are living like that. That's right. Um, well, I mean, not just here, but, you know, throughout the world, of course, Um, and not just during this time period, but on other time [00:13:30] periods. I mean, Jonathan Katz's work of American gay American history is, you know, um, points to heaps of, um, people who in the past who've, um, lived not in in the straight world. So, um, and there's just more and more coming out, you know, as more people do more of us do more research from our own angle, not from a straight angle. So, um, there's more to find and more to talk about. More to consider, more to discuss [00:14:00] from all different angles. Um, um, I've just looked at from, you know, my view and from where I come from, um, but someone else can look at the same experiences and, uh, have different interpretations, which I think is wonderful. There you've written about, um, someone else who's, um, who lived in similar circumstances or, um, not [00:14:30] really. But in the course of doing that work, um, I've come across, um, other people, um, other women, other men in New Zealand. So there's a heap of research that is to be done. Um, one of one of the women, um, we I came across was, uh, went under the name Peter Stratford as it as it is. Uh, and she was, um, died in the United States in 1929. [00:15:00] And, uh, she actually was came from New Zealand. Um, and, uh, her name was Stratford. Because that's where she lived. Her actual name just escapes me right now. Dearly. Morton is the name. Um, but, uh, she went from here to the United States and lived and worked in the United States. Um, from early in the 19th 20th century, Um, and, uh, she, uh, actually was involved [00:15:30] with a woman who's reasonably well known in the United States. Uh, so there's archival material in the United States associated with the writer woman, um, which, you know, holds material about Deli and her life there as a as a man. Um, so, you know, there's a lot more to be done, and I'm considering doing something about that, but I'll see how I go. Yeah, exciting. And your, um, your book is available? Yes. [00:16:00] Um, it's available in Unity Books and Woman's Bookshop in Auckland. And if they don't have a book in stock, um, you can get it from there or from Steele Roberts, the publisher directly. So, um, ST Roberts is based in Wellington. So, uh, there's a website you can go on to their website, steal Roberts, uh, Steele Roberts one word dot co dot NZ. And so you can order through the website and and the name of the book again is perfectly natural. The audacious story of [00:16:30] Iris Florence Peter Williams. Now just remind us where the perfectly natural came Oh, when I was thinking of a title for the book, Um, I couldn't think of anything better than the words of Peter himself. Um, and when he was interviewed, he was actually interviewed by reporters. And that's how come we have some of this. I have some of this material. Um, when When they were, um uh, found out in 1945. Um, reporters found out who they were and went to Peter's flat in [00:17:00] Grafton, Auckland, and, um interviewed him, and, uh, and he said, Well, you know, I don't know what's going to happen now. My wife and I were going to be split up. Um, I've lost my job. Um, I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know why we just can't be left alone. We're not harming anyone, and, um, I am perfectly natural. So I wanted to use as much of Peter's own words given, you know, I'm coming in, you know, a random person after after his life, [00:17:30] and he doesn't know about me. And, um and, uh, I thought it was great to be able to bring his words out.

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TITLE: Julie Glamuzina - homosexual law reform
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VOICES: Julie Glamuzina
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; Amy Bock; Anti Springbok tour protest (1981); Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Club 41; Contraception, Sterilisation, and Abortion Act (1977); Crimes Act (1961); Croatia; Dominion (newspaper); Fiona Clark; Fran Wilde; Gay Liberation Front Auckland; HIV / AIDS; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Julie Glamuzina; KG Club (Auckland); Lesbian Coalition; Maxine Wilkinson; Member of Parliament; New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Act (1969); Out Front: Lesbian Political Activity in Aotearoa 1962-1985 (journal); Parliament buildings; Perfectly Natural: The audacious story of Iris Florence Peter Williams (book); Peter Williams; Polari Fantabulosa (Wellington); Porleen Simmonds; QUILTED BANANAS (Wellington Access Radio); Salvation Army; Salvation Army Citadel; Shakespeare Hotel; Socialist Action (newspaper); University of Auckland; Victoria Club; Wellington; Wellington Town Hall; Women Zone (Wellington Access Radio); abortion; abortion law reform; activism; age of consent; church; clubs; community; dance; direct action; discrimination; distribution; dyke; employment; equality; facebook. com; feminism; gay liberation movement; hate speech; herstory; heteronormativity; history; homophobia; homosexual law reform; human rights; internet; invisibility; kissing; lesbian; lesbian feminism; magazines; march; marriage; newspapers; passing; photocopy; photography; police; politics; pride; protest; queer; queer bashing; rest homes; sex; sightseeing; solidarity; sport; survival; television; transgender; twitter. com; violence; visibility; women; writing
DATE: 31 October 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Julie talks about documenting lesbian political activity pre-homosexual law reform, her involvement in various movements in the 1970s and 1980s and the importance of taking direct action.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Julie, you've bought in, um, some archival material for us to have a look at, and one of them is called. It's a little journal. It's called outfront Lesbian Political activity in a 1962 to 1985. And it's by you. Can you just tell us a little bit about what that booklet was about? It's, um I wanted to put this together because, um, I knew there was a lot of material around, um, but not accessible, not visible [00:00:30] and not allowed to be visible as well. Um, and I was a bit worried. Um, you know that we would lose, um, elements of our histories and how we operated here in this country as lesbians. And, um, So I decided to try and document as best I could. Um, what I knew about, um So I put this booklet together as a historical resource for our communities. And when did you When did you put it together? Um, I actually published it, I think in about 1993. [00:01:00] Um, so it took a couple of years to pull together the information. And, um, quite a number of lesbians contributed and helped me with, um material and information and, uh, things, uh, events that they had been involved in. Um, I wanted to cover, um, lesbians in the feminist movement. Lesbians, um, in in the gay liberation movement. Um, there's been feminist activity publications, our meeting places. So I've tried to document, um, clubs [00:01:30] that people knew about and so on. So, um, I, I hope, is that this it's a starting point for a whole lot of, um I hope it expands and, you know, leads people to do lots more research because there's a whole mine of information here, and, uh, stuff we can learn from If people wanted to get hold of the journal. Now, where would they find it? Um, they'll find it in libraries. Um, and I've got some copies left, so I can, um, make make those copies available to people. [00:02:00] Um, if they can contact me at Julie G at pearl dot co dot NZ when you, um when you put it out, Um, did you get a great response to it? Yeah, I did. Um, people were very pleased. Um, one woman said, Thank you. You've given me my history back because she'd left New Zealand and had been away. You know, like you said you had for a bit. Um, she'd been away for about 20 years, and it must, um, you know, was not here during all of the events that had happened. Um, [00:02:30] and, uh, and she liked the pictures. Um, at the time I published this Self published it. So it was, um, limited limited funds. Um, so it's black and white pictures, but nevertheless, they're there, And, uh, and she found it great to see the images and to read about the events. So there was, um I was pleased with people's response to it and gathering the information for it. Did you just put a call out to people? Yeah, um, I asked people. And also I had, [00:03:00] um, newspapers. Um, I had two volumes of socialist action newspapers, and they were good with the main newspapers at the time. Wouldn't even print the word lesbian or wouldn't even use the word homosexual. Um, and you couldn't put an ad in with the word lesbian in it. Um, Socialist action. Um, reporters, um, reported lots of protest events and had pictures and so on. So that was a great source for 19 early seventies information. What would [00:03:30] be some of the highlights in the journal? Uh, well, I think, um, the whole thing is a highlight to me. Um, I, I especially liked putting in the the Gay Liberation Front, the Auckland Gay Liberation Front manifesto from May 1972. And when I read it now, I still think, Yeah, that's right. You know, um, because it ends with we do not intend to ask for anything. We intend to stand firm and assert our basic rights. [00:04:00] So not, you know, going around and trying to, um, get people to give us something which is ours, as of right anyway, um, but to demand and take what is rightfully ours and and, you know, to assert that we are OK people. So I think that was quite good. I think the highlight other highlight would be just, um, having it finished and giving it to people and making it available and having such a good response at the time. So, uh, who's [00:04:30] on the cover? Uh, on the cover is a picture of Amy Bock, actually, um, and, uh, this was from, uh this was made available to me by Fiona Clark, Um, the photographer. And, uh, she had, um, come across a collection of, um, photographs and quite a lot of photographs of Amy Bock and her, Um, um, the people around her in Taranaki. And, [00:05:00] um, Fiona, I think had met, um, uh, one of the people who was with Amy Bock. Um, and she was in her home, and she had a whole collection of photographs and allowed Fiona to have access to them. Um, and Fiona allowed me to reproduce this and put that on. Tell us. Tell us why. Amy is significant. Because Amy Bock is famous in New Zealand. General history is, um, a woman who married another woman. Um, but she posed [00:05:30] as a man, and so there's a lot of dispute around. How do you view Amy Bock? Was she a fraudster? Was she a lesbian? Was she a transgender or, you know, there's a lot of, um, debate and discussion around, um, Amy, but she was famous, um, in the early 19 hundreds for marrying another woman. Then she was found out, and then she had a, um a bit of a criminal history beyond that. Um, so And she was referred to. Um uh, she's referred to in in in many newspapers. [00:06:00] Um, you know, a after those events as a as a criminal and fraudster and so on. And I was interested also in her from another angle because I was researching, um, another woman who dressed in past as a man. Um, And, uh, when when they discussed the later woman's case, they referred to Amy Bock quite a bit. You've chosen a time frame. 1962 to 1985. Why? Why is that time frame special? Because, uh, 85 [00:06:30] I chose because it was just around the time of homosexual law reform and, um, I. I kind of was doing the work just after that. Um, and I thought, uh, and and 62 was, um, where I kind of started. Really? Um, and and they they're kind of arbitrary. The 1985 is convenient because it was too much to go forward. So I just thought OK, just, um, uh, kind of restricted to this time frame. And, you know, because [00:07:00] you can go on. And I just wanted to get something out and 62. Um, I would not put that now, I would think, um, let's extend Let's bring in more of, um, prior to 1960. But that's what I knew at the time. So yeah, it it was just a convenient mechanism to limit the scope of the work. That's all. And you haven't done any particular update or second edition of a different period. No, I went on to some other things. [00:07:30] Um, but I am thinking about a new project. So who knows? And you've put in some other bits and pieces, too. One is a fairly fantastic looking photo that is from the Dominion newspaper archives. And it's, um it looks like a gathering of people in a hall, and I think it looks like you might be doing a political snog. Couldn't can you, uh, can you explain to us what's what's going on in this photo? [00:08:00] Well, any snog is always personal as well as political. Um, the picture is a picture of myself and another lesbian, Um, Maxine Wilkinson, who was a friend of mine, and, uh, we we're standing up amongst a group of people who are seated in the Wellington Town Hall on in April 1985. Um, and uh, it's it was a rally. Um, which was organised [00:08:30] by, um, the anti gay, um, forces, um, who wanted to stop any kind of homosexual law reform? Any kind of human rights, you know, extension to lesbians and gays, um, transgender. And everyone, um, to to extend human basic human rights. So they wanted none of it, and they or they they got themselves pretty well organised and, um, held a series of meetings throughout the country. And this particular [00:09:00] one was in the Wellington town hall. And, um, we went along because we wanted to, um, counter what we knew. Um, you know, they might be saying, um, because already, uh, there'd been a meeting, I think, in Auckland and a meeting in lower Hutt and the the kinds of statements that were made by these anti anti gay people were quite revolting. Um, for example, one of the things they said was get back to the sewers where you belong. Um, and [00:09:30] that was just that's just, um, minor. Really. Um, so we went along there to basically disrupt and protest and, um, and part way into the meeting. So? So we arrived there and on the stage with the speakers. And, um uh, they just, uh stood up and said how revolting gays were that we caused aids that, um, you know, it was disgusting. Um, filthy and perverted. Um, you know, they talked about [00:10:00] that, um, gay men's sexual practises. Um, what they assumed to be or thought to be, um and so it was just really awful. And people were sitting and yelling and, um, calling out Oh, you know, You know, piss off. And, um oh, that's rubbish And all these kinds of things. And Max, I was sitting next to Maxine, and I just felt like we weren't actually doing it, so nobody was actually seeing us be gay if you know what I mean or be lesbian. [00:10:30] So I said to Max, let's just let's have a kiss. So we just stood up and she said, Yeah, so we stood up, and then we just really had a very big long kiss. And, uh, as you can see from the photo, people are standing up and holding their hands over their heads, clapping. People are smiling. People are around us. We were amongst our own supporters. I have to say there are a couple of non smiling faces a little further away, because there were a lot of Christians there and anti gay people. [00:11:00] And, um uh, and it was just fantastic. There was a camera there, a TV camera at the time, and they focused on us. Um, and so that was later on the news, Um, actually shown on the news. And that's what we wanted. We wanted to, um, have us at the forefront to have us as the focus of that meeting. Not the vile things that they were saying to bring back the focus to [00:11:30] us, uh, being living and being positive and, uh, and loving. So, um, the next day, um, this picture we like, I'm really pleased to have this picture. Um, it was taken by a Dominion photographer, Dominion Post, I think. Or one of those reporters. Um, and it was published in the newspaper. Uh, but the caption under it said, um, two gay men kissing. So it was like, lesbians are invisible everywhere, [00:12:00] but it's definitely not two gay men myself and Max Wilkinson. It looks like an absolutely packed hall. It was totally packed. It was just mayhem. Um, you could you could hear the speakers, but also, they were you know, we were just shouting and screaming. Some people were just opening their mouths and just going, Ah, just to drown them out and to stop from hearing all that vile stuff. Um, And I remember, um, up in the gallery. Um, I think there was, um, a couple of [00:12:30] other MP S looking down, and and I thought, uh, they they're kind of looking to see what they're going to get out of it. You know, that was my thinking at the time, but, um, anyway, it was, um I think it was the most successful, um, protest against the, um, against this awful rally. Really? Yeah. And I mean, they were so hateful. They were really hateful. It wasn't just we, you know, we don't agree with you as Christians, but it was you don't you don't be like you don't, um You don't [00:13:00] deserve to live as the message we got, which is quite extreme. Real hate. That's right. Total hate. And where that goes to, in the end, is murder. So, um, during the homosexual law reform campaign, um, there was a lot of violence against gay men and lesbians. And there are quite a number of documented cases of men just being bashed up on the street because, you know, they were assumed to be gay. And, you know, they were, um But, [00:13:30] um, when you have that kind of hate filled hate speech, um, and hateful ideas, um, as part of the mainstream, um, media and communication channels, well, that sets a ground work. It sets the ground and helps set a ground for, um perhaps, um, demented or violent people Or, um, just hateful people to go out and bash you up because you don't deserve to exist. So, you know, they think they've got a right to do that. [00:14:00] So how did you come to be involved in everything? Um Well, I've been involved in, um, gay liberation, you know, from when I first came out in, uh, Auckland University. And, uh, then when I came, I came to Wellington, actually, because I knew there was a club here, and there was a lot of action going on here and in Auckland there was as well. But, um, I just liked the idea of Wellington and the activity. And so when I came here, I got involved [00:14:30] in, um uh, they were actually, um um, you know, initiatives before the 1984 1985 work. Um, And I remember in the seventies, um, sitting with people and, um, gay liberation people, other gay liberation people in Mount Victoria in a small flat, drafting up, um, amendments, um, and submissions for, um, you know, human rights legislation to, you know, to come in. That was, of course, uh, unheard of, [00:15:00] uh, for most of them, You know, for most of the straight people at that time, but so I've always been involved. And at that time, I was involved with, um, lesbian groups. Yeah. What? What? Like who? Like, um, around that time we called, We called ourselves various things at different times. Um, but, uh, at that point, we called ourselves Lesbian Coalition. Um, and our aim was to support the, um, activities around the homosexual law reform, including the human rights [00:15:30] reform legislation. Um uh, but to do it from a lesbian perspective, lesbian and a lesbian feminist perspective, Um, a lot of people, a lot of women who had been involved in gay liberation early kind of left at different times because of the sexism and so on of a lot of gay men. Um, at that time, not all. But, um, so, you know, I just wanted to work in, you know, lesbian, um, specific groups. And, um, our [00:16:00] angle was, Well, we want to come to that campaign, um, from a lesbian angle. So and from a direct action angle. So I think the other point I wanted to make was that around around that time, Um, the MP who proposed the bill from wild, you know, in good honour. Um uh, she and I think maybe there was conservative conservative elements amongst the gay men as well as amongst lesbians. Um, And and they thought [00:16:30] the best way forward was to play it kind of play it cool, so to speak. So they didn't really want a lot of action on the streets or people in rallies because they thought that would then lead to violence, perhaps, or bad publicity. And then we would lose the chance of this. And that was not our approach. The approach that a lot of lesbians wanted to take. And so some of us thought no direct action You have to, um, directly say what you want and demand [00:17:00] it. And so the more out we are, the better. Um And so, like, in this pamphlet that I brought along, um, some of the things we said, uh, what what can be done? What can be done to fight back against the people who don't want this legislation to go through. So remember, that was, at the beginning of 1985 that all of this stuff kicked off. The bill was finally passed into law in 1986. And, um so throughout, 1985 there was, [00:17:30] um, Salvation Army running around getting people in rest homes and schools and churches everywhere to sign a petition against having this legislation in place and against our rights. And there were churches, Catholic Church. The bishops of the Catholic Church said, This is terrible. Um, other churches came out against it. The Salvation Army was a particular, um, unpleasant, um, you know, group that [00:18:00] pushed this. And, uh, and the the anti gay people brought in speakers from overseas, like conservative Christian conservative speakers to say how vile homosexuals were. And you know, So, um, so we thought Well, what can be done? So I'm just reading from the from it. Now it says right to or visit your local MP. Ask her or him to support 16 as the age of consent for gay men. Human rights for lesbians [00:18:30] and gay men. No criminalization of lesbians because we were frightened that that might happen. Make a submission to Parliament. Push your union and other groups you belong to To make supportive statements and write submissions. Join lesbian action. Do your own thing. Get friends, family workmates to support the bill. Um, there are other things. Pickets, um, write write up. You know, in our magazines. Um, you know what? What can be done. And then, um, there was planned for, um, a lesbian Gay pride week. [00:19:00] Um, march in May, Uh, and there was a this was in Wellington, and there were others around the country later, um, but for the Wellington march, um, the conservative elements of the pro law group, um, said no don't have a march. It's going to cause trouble. It's gonna, you know, do this. It's gonna bring out the hate, and, um but the march went ahead, and it was highly successful. There were, I think, thousands of people there [00:19:30] marching in the streets and I mean, I'd marched in the streets in Wellington for abortion law reform for, um, one of the biggest ones in the seventies against the security Intelligence Service bill, which would have, you know, clamped down on, um, you know, expanded the powers of the Secret Service and, um, of Intelligence service. Um, and there were 10,000 people on that march. Um, and in 1981 during the Springbok tour, So there were thousands of people on the streets then And, um, contrast with that. My history [00:20:00] in the past was, um, walking down Auckland Queen Street in 1974. About 300 people. Maybe that, um, but not very many. And, um, thousands of people on the side looking at us and pointing it was a gay liberation march. It was a gay pride march. And, um, just feeling very, very thinly, thinly surrounded and outnumbered by the people [00:20:30] staring at us and pointing and laughing and, you know, being abusive and so on, um And then to have that march in Wellington where there were thousands of people for lesbian. You know, for lesbian and gay rights. Um, that was fantastic. And I think it was most positive. And I always think it's it's much positive to stand up and be proud and say, no, we're here, you know? You fuck off you you fuck off you hide. You hide your hate. You should be hiding your hate, not proclaiming [00:21:00] it. And we should just be acting normally as ourselves. Did you speak at any of the matches? Um, I spoke once at parliament, and I forget why now might have been for something else, but I do remember saying, um, we don't, um We don't ask for our rights. Uh, we we demand and take our rights. Yeah. Um, no. I was, uh, apart from that exhibit in the town hall, Um uh, yelling [00:21:30] generally with other people. So, um, I remember going to the Salvation Army, um, hall here in Wellington, and I really like singing rather than speaking in front of a big group. And so we went there and we were singing, um, great tunes like, um, yes. Jesus was gay. Yes. Jesus was gay. The Bible tells us so. So I don't know if it did But anyway, that's what [00:22:00] we're seeing. And to the poor, poor people going in and out of the Salvation Army Church on Sunday. So but, um, the things like that I think built, um, pride And, um uh, just, you know, all all those kinds of activities I think are really important and do make a difference because it's telling the other side, Actually, we're not going away. And actually, we don't like what you're saying about us, and neither should you be saying it. And, um, so we're just going to keep on being [00:22:30] out there until we get what we deserve and what we need. So did you find yourself having to explain or be involved in explaining to other lesbians why it was important to be part of something that essentially could be seen as only benefiting gay men? Yeah, totally. Um, a lot of lesbians thought, Oh, it's just a bill about men because the emphasis was on, um, changing, getting, um, you know, uh, making, um, consenting acts between men legal, [00:23:00] um, which they had been illegal and to get an age of consent of 16. There'd been previous initiatives where the consent age of consent for gaming was proposed to be 21 and then I think 18. And then, um, this one was 16 or came to 16. Um, but, you know, um, in the previous initiatives, people had said, Oh, why don't you make the age of consent 90? Because that's what you really want. You don't want us to be here, So, um uh, yeah, a lot of lesbians thought that that just affected gay men. Um, [00:23:30] that wasn't true, because, um, from a number of points of view one is that, um there was the risk that during this law, in a discussion around the change of law that, um, there was a suggestion that lesbians should be included. So at that time, 1961 crimes act was the only thing that, um, affected us Where, um, it there was a, um a clause [00:24:00] that said a woman over the age of 21 if she had, uh, it was illegal to have sex with a girl under the age of 16, which was, you know, child protection. But, um, apart from that, there's no mention of us, and, um, so this would be a backward step to have lesbians explicitly mentioned in law, Uh, with the age of consent of 16. So we didn't want that. And we, um I think the other thing was there was human rights, part of the, [00:24:30] um, homosexual law, as it was first proposed, that was later dropped. Um, but there was human rights legislation as part of that bill initially, so that, of course, would have been beneficial, or some people would see it as not. But, um, we I saw it as beneficial. Um, And the other thing is, um, even though we weren't, um, in the same boat as gay men, so we weren't there wasn't a law against lesbians having sex with each other. Um, we were treated as such. [00:25:00] We were treated as if we were illegal. And, um, from the, um, uh, some stories from experiences from the early clubs. Um, like police were just, um, police took down the numbers of, uh, the car numbers of women going into Lesbian Club in Auckland and then went and harassed them and went to their employers and said, Oh, you know, um, so they did all that kind of stuff. Um, so we were, um, kind of in [00:25:30] some ways treated alongside. I mean, it's not the same. Uh, we couldn't be arrested just for living with our girlfriends. Um, whereas gay men could, um but, um, I think, um, you know, purely from a point of solidarity as well, we should have supported. Um, you know any of that kind of progress? Yeah. Do you remember the club scene in Wellington around that time? Yes, I do. Um, and as [00:26:00] I said, I came to Wellington because of the lesbian political scene. I want to be involved in it. Um, and, uh, at, uh, at the time, there was a club 41 which is not far from here. We were having this interview. It was 41 Vivian Street. Actually, I think it's a restaurant now. And when I go past it, um, you know, I wish it was different. Uh, it was called club 41 because it was at 41 Vivian Street, and, um, it was started by four women. Pauline Simmons. [00:26:30] Um, and I forget the other other two or three people. Um, anyway, they started up the club and it operated on Saturday nights and Friday nights, Friday and Saturday nights and sometimes on Wednesdays it was available as well. Um, and, uh, there was a jukebox so you could go and play all these really neat old songs. Um, and, uh, uh, it was subject to being raided by the police for, you know, if you had liquor and stuff, there weren't supposed to. And, um, [00:27:00] it's very funny because, um, you the doorway that you went, you know, to go into club 41. There was a doorway next to it, And that was to, um, a sports club, which was upstairs. So I think it was might have been a soccer club. Or, you know, football club, something like that. Maybe it was a rugby league club. It wasn't a rugby club, so sometimes you'd come out from the club and there'd be, um, men and straight women going upstairs to the to the, um, sports club. Um, mostly it was OK, I think. [00:27:30] Um, but it was great. It was just a a small place. It was our own space. It was most important. And you could go there, and it was lesbian only. So, um, when I was in Auckland, for example, you could go to places like the Shakespeare Hotel in Albert Street and, uh, upstairs bar Shakespeare Hotel in the seventies. That was, uh, uh where, you know, the the went. And that's where the straits came to, um, to, you know, um, was it to do sightseeing? [00:28:00] So you'd go up there and, um and then and you'd figure out who was straight, who wasn't. And the straits were usually sitting, you know, steering. Um, and that was most uncomfortable as well. Um, unless you're in the mood. So sometimes you'd feel in the mood and just show off. Um, And other times, um, it was just horrible. Yeah. So places like Club 41 were really, really important. We could go and not have to have any explanation and not be harassed by men. Um, or, you know, [00:28:30] straight women. Um, so it was It was really good. It was a centre for a lot of political meetings. Uh, social gatherings, Um, all sorts. Yeah. It's good. Um, how many people could be there? I don't know. Quite a lot. Um, I don't know. You could get dozens and dozens of people in there. Do you recall other spaces around town Yeah, there was, um I think there was a club in Wigan Street. Um, was it above [00:29:00] a factory? Uh, yeah. Um, and then there was, um, the restaurant in, um, the grain of salt restaurant. So there was a place above the people could go. The Victoria Victoria. That's it. Um, it's Yeah, that's that's what I remember. And, um And you are You are a patron of these of these places? Yes, as much as I could be. Yeah, mostly, uh, very good in club 41. [00:29:30] Love going there. Did you find yourself being a target of any of the discrimination during the time? I'm a little bit insensitive at times, so I may have been, but not I don't remember exactly. I. I don't remember. Um I mean, other than the meetings and as a, you know, on mass as a group, um, in terms of specific, you know, direct to me. No, but [00:30:00] sometimes I'm polite, so, you know, I might not have noticed, um, this pamphlet that you were reading from before it looks like it's a photo handwritten photocopy. Yeah. Um, And how how are you distributing this? Um, this sort of material Yeah, that's a really good point, because, um, like, nowadays, there's, uh, Facebook, Twitter, instagram, all sorts of stuff so we can get out. You know, you can get [00:30:30] stuff out there, um, to a mass audience really quick and cheap. Maybe even no cost. Um, but at that time, um, even to get stuff photocopied that cost money. And, um, so everything was done on the cheap, um, free. You know, voluntary labour. Um, so this is actually it is handwritten. It's a four, and it's been folded in two. So it's a a five. And, uh, someone's, you know, coloured it in homosexual law [00:31:00] reform Bill, it's got with a little pink colouring there. And, uh, did you did you hand it out on the street? We handed it out. We handed it out at, um uh, at our our events. Um, and you know where there would be lesbians and yeah, So it was all it was manual because it would have been tricky to for people to have found out the information, even from the newspapers. Bugger all in the newspapers about what was coming up. So you had to be, um, involved in the meeting So if there was, like [00:31:30] a, um, a dance or, um, you know, a club event or something like that. Then this This material was handed out there, Um, so wherever lesbians, wherever there was a gathering that we go and hand it out and then at these big public events as well. So say say this events that we've got the photo of, um, at the town hall. How how would you all have gone about, um, organising that that size group of people to come along, Put the word out, put the word out so mouth to mouth. [00:32:00] And, um um, literally with mouth to mouth, actually, yeah, pity there wasn't more there could have been, I don't know, leading up. Maybe that's just the top, you know, after everyone else. But, um um, yeah, it was, uh, mouth to mouth. There were a couple of magazines. Um, so it would be it was in the magazines as well about what was coming up. But a lot of these things happened quite quickly as well. So it was really a ring around [00:32:30] and, um, literally, um, person to person. Yeah. And there was actually, um, on the radio um there was a radio at the time. Um, there was the women's radio, Um, the feminist radio station. And I forget when the lesbian radio station began, But there would be, um, made, um, made nine on the radio stations. Yeah. Yeah. Can you remember what you were doing on the night when [00:33:00] the of the third reading? Which was July the ninth? No, I can't. No one can remember everyone I asked. No one. No one remembers. I have no idea. I have. No, I don't even know where I was. I think I was in Wellington, but, um, yeah. No, I don't know. I have no idea. Do you remember celebrating? Well, um, only individually, like, you know, But no, not not not going out or anything like that. No, I don't. It's terrible. [00:33:30] Yeah. Most people I've talked to they they sort of I was in bed and listening to the radio as well. It was. Was it July? It was probably cold. Yeah. So why would you go out? Yeah, No, I have no idea whatsoever. Not a clue, because I've heard people talk about, um, sort of a large kind of community party that happens sort of a couple of months afterwards, but still a bit of a myth from [00:34:00] I can't I think I did. Um, I might have retreated to, um, you know, my own individual world. And, um, which, when I first came into the lesbian community in Auckland and I went to the K What was it was the KG club. At that time. It was down on beach Road, and, um, I looked around and I thought, Where where are all the old lesbians? Because most of the people that I saw looked like in their twenties, thirties, forties, maybe beyond [00:34:30] that? No. And I thought, Where are all the older lesbians? And I said to my friends, this was in the sorry KG club in Auckland in the seventies. And, um and I was a history student. Um, and, uh, I thought, Where are all the older lesbians? And I thought well, and I asked someone, and they said, Oh, as soon as they get a girlfriend, you know, they get married IE to themselves, not formal time. Obviously. Um [00:35:00] well, they just get married, go off into the suburbs and you need to see them again until they break up, and then they come back to the club and they need another girlfriend, and then they it's still true. Yeah, And And I thought, um, I don't want to do that. I want to be, you know, old when I'm old, I want to be there at the at the clubs at our clubs and have, you know, like, a full, full range, Um, so in in in our own in my own, uh, Croatian community, [00:35:30] um, when when we mixed in our community, it was full from nineties through to, you know, nine months kind of, You know, um, so everyone was participating in, um, events, And, um so I thought it was a shame that that's how it seemed to be at that time, I thought that I don't think that now, but, um, I think it's important to be involved in community so you can see yourself represented back to yourself through others, not just through [00:36:00] you. And that's very important. Yeah, because because, um, heterosexuals see that the whole time when you look at, um, like, uh, pictures, um, all forms of media TV movies, everything, um, they they look at themselves every day, and they can see themselves reflected back to themselves every day. And they think, Oh, I'll look like that person. I'll be like that person, and we don't see that as much. But we need to. So we need to swarm [00:36:30] the streets and the all these buildings around here that are vacant with no messages with our messages and pictures of ourselves. And one way to do that is to be in a community with other people and to, um, mix with other others of your own kind. How how are you involved in community now? Um Well, um, I belong to POLARI Floo, but I'm not here in Wellington now. So, um, I need [00:37:00] to join some groups in Auckland. Um, so I just this year shifted back there, Um, and in our own, um, where I live. Um, there's a couple of dikes down the road. And, um, so we have socials with them, um, separate from our socials with our more general community where we live. Um, So, uh, and I wanna and through writing through writing and publishing. And what sort of things are you? Are you writing about? Um Well, I just [00:37:30] published a book recently on, um, a person who lived as a man. Um um, in the 20th century in in A in New Zealand. And, um so I've just published well published in 2014. Um, so I've been thinking about my next project and what it might be, but I want to plug the book plug. What's the title of the book? The book is called perfectly natural. And it is about, um, Iris. Florence [00:38:00] Peter Williams. Who, um, was born a woman. Um, in the 19 thirties in Auckland. She had her breast removed so that she could, um, live as a man, and she married a woman in 1945. And that's how come I got to know about her because that was in the papers. And, um uh, they were arrested. Um, and, uh, so I wanted to find out more about her and how she lived her life. And she died in 1993 [00:38:30] in Auckland. Is Peter Williams? Um, she married? Uh, she, uh, lived married 1 to 3 other women at least after 1945 and I don't know how she would have described herself. Um, but I did get to speak to her very first wife and her very last wife and I. I truly believe that, um, Peter saw himself as himself. And, um maybe didn't [00:39:00] identify as transgender or lesbian or gay or whatever, but, um saw himself as as himself. Um, but, uh, anyway, it's, uh it was, uh, to me, it's a story of, um, uh, part of our community, um, surviving despite, um, the restrictions of the time. And you know, all the things that, um, he went through to be Peter. And what what's the name of the book again? [00:39:30] Perfectly natural. And that'll be in bookshops in the Woman's Bookshop and Unity Woman's Bookshop, Auckland Unity here, Um, perfectly natural are the words of Iris Florence Peter Williams. He said when he was arrested. Why do I have to be treated like this? I am perfectly natural. Um, when I was thinking about this interview, um, I thought, What's what is the point [00:40:00] of a You know, there's a point in doing it just of itself. Um, but I thought What what is it that was I wanted to say about the homosexual law reform, um, campaign and campaigns of that nature. And I think maybe there's two things. One is that that campaign in 84 85 86 that was built on the work of campaigns prior the work of the gay Liberation Front lesbian Lesbian movement, lesbian feminist movement, feminists, [00:40:30] all of that. All of that leading here and from overseas as well. Um, you know, the, you know, linking in with the movements in the states and England, Australia and so on. Um that, uh, that they provided, uh, that it was a slowly building foundation on which these things then can happen. And, uh, and the more recent legislation around marriage, equality and so on these are built on, in my view, on those past, um, [00:41:00] endeavours. Um so nothing comes out of things, just don't come out of thin air. They come out of something. That's why we have to know the history. And the second thing is, um, the thing, um of direct action that no matter what they say, people say no, you know, don't upset people. Don't, uh, you know, don't be visible. Blah, blah, blah. The message for me, after all this time still is being visible, is the most radical thing that you can do and being out is the most [00:41:30] radical thing that we can do in all its expressions and so to sort of have backroom deals. Um, in the hope of getting some, you know, bit of our rights, um, will not work. It's, uh you demand your rights and you take them and, uh and you do that is out visible. Proud, lesbian, gay, transgender into sex. It's You're out there. That's the That's the most radical thing.

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TITLE: Shelley Te Waiariki Howard - homosexual law reform
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VOICES: Shelley Te Waiariki Howard
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; Agender New Zealand; Australia; BDSM; Charles Jones; Cricket World Cup (2015); Doris Day; Gallipoli; Gina Lollobrigida; Hayley Mills; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Lower Hutt; Middle East; Midland Park; Ministry of Defence; New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF); Rainbow Wellington; Rock Hudson; School's Out (Wellington); Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar; Shelley Te Waiariki Howard; Shirley MacLaine; Singapore; Sophia Loren; Te Reo Māori; Territorial Force (army); Vietnam; Waiouru; World War 1; World War 2; Youth'07 survey; Youth'12 survey; acceptance; alcohol; army; attitude; beauty; binary; bullying; butch; children; cissy boy; closeted; clothing; community; crime; cross dressing; dignity; discovery; dominant; double life; drag; engineering; expression; family; fantasize; fashion; fear; femininity; femme; fishing; forced feminisation; friends; gay; gender identity; glamour; growing up; guilt; heteronormativity; heterosexual; hiding; homelessness; homophobic bullying; homosexual law reform; honour; honour suicide; hug; humanity; humour; identity; internet; macho; marriage; masculinity; media; military; misogyny; murder; navy; non-binary; passing; peer support; persona; pervert; poetry; politics; queer; rape; relationships; respect; rugby; sadism; shame; smoking; social experiment; submissive; suicide; support; tolerance; top; transexual; transgender; transgender bullying
DATE: 18 October 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Lower Hutt, Lower Hutt, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Shelley talks about being in the military during homosexual law reform, the need to repress and then express her femininity, and the power of a hug.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, 19 eighties. I was living with my, uh, wife and first son and, uh, living here in lower hut at the time of in our first house and, uh uh, the early part of the eighties, I was with the Territorial Force Unit, based in Paton. And by the time the homosexual Law Reform Act was being considered, I was part of the Ministry of Defence Works Directorate, Um, working [00:00:30] out of the Freberg building, Uh, just opposite parliament. So, um, so I was sort of close to the action, but, uh, not really a part of it, so to speak. Yeah. And, uh, and very much imbued in that, um, binary, normative life of playing the heterosexual male, doing those good soldierly things. And, um, very much in the process of I was just gonna say, discovering myself. But I the only thing [00:01:00] I really discovered at that time, to be honest, is, um, as a young woman, two floors below me, uh, who inspired the name I've finally taken on. So, um yeah. Um, Shelley, I can't remember her last name now. Um, but she was a a rather striking woman. Ham by certainly today's standards of um, a woman. She was a She was a curvy woman, but proportionately curvy and quite stunningly attractive. She [00:01:30] had Italian heritage, so she had that lovely olive complexion. And that typically fiery, uh, Italian matriarchal, uh, sort of temper. She booked no nonsense. And I admired her greatly because of her independence and and her obvious strength and combined that with her attractiveness and style. And I thought, that's who I model myself on with them when the day comes. Were you friends with her? Yes. [00:02:00] We were, uh she'd been, uh, a girlfriend. I guess would be that she wasn't I don't think she was a partner, but she was a girlfriend of a of a of a colleague of mine. Um, and, uh, so that's how I sort of came to, um, know about her. But my job and the administrative job she was doing, even though we were on different floors, required us to sort of cross paths from time to time, So it was a professional interest, [00:02:30] but, uh, yeah, it's, um it was one of those little odd things where, uh um my my attraction for her was and the sense of like my attraction for a lot of women in those in those days was my attraction was for how they represented how I would love to be if I could be a woman. And I hadn't really resolved the fact that I could be at that point. So, uh, um, so I was a I was an interested observer in the [00:03:00] in the homosexual law reform that was was taking place around that time. But I'll confess I was pretty much part of the paradigm, particularly prevailing in the military at that time about, uh, um, homosexuality and the implications that it might have for life in the military. Um, and, uh, it was easy to broke into or buy into the fear, [00:03:30] I guess. And I think that's the right word to use the fear that, uh, that that would involve all kinds of sexual impropriety in terms of and disciplinary issues. Um, following on from that and the way in which, um, we we went about our business. Uh, but the discussions we're having that were happening in the wider community, through the media and and elsewhere, we're having that effect of sort of Ameliorating [00:04:00] some of those fears in a way, too, that there was a you know, what the hell kind of an attitude one of the prevailing jokes was on. You know, it won't be long before they make a compulsory sort of thing. Um, And then while that was a I think it was meant in a kind of a derogatory sense that represented the uncertainty, I guess, and And guys who probably pretended or claim to be hetero normal. Um, [00:04:30] and the fact that you know, they they felt maybe their lives are going to be changed irrevocably because, uh, homosexuals were going to take over the over the military and and change the way we did business or something up. It was It was, as it turned out, to be totally unfounded. But, um, you know when when these things are unknown, Because they've never been part of your normal discourse and they haven't been part of your normal narrative. Um, it does create [00:05:00] fears and trauma. So you were You were with your wife and you had a son. Um, did you know of any people who were, uh, I imagine people in the military were closet at the time. Did you know anyone who you felt was in the closet? No, Uh, that was one of the things II I had. No, I think I felt certain that there must have been, um, you know, we heard about the ratios at, like, one in five. So, [00:05:30] you know, a group of you know, I was commanding, um, a team of about 100 and 30. Um, so based on the ratios, the probability that someone within the group was in some way um, queer Identifying well, queer, not identifying as as the as the system required, sort of in those days, Um, it was pretty high. And, of course, um, I kind of I. I guess I saw myself as being [00:06:00] I didn't see myself as being gay at all. Um, I think I felt entirely, uh, heterosexual. Um, but I I knew I knew I was something. But I didn't really at that time really have have a place for myself, which is a big part of my confusion. And and, uh, so why I played so hard at the male normative role thing, and I think that was safe for a [00:06:30] lot of the queer people at that time. Um the we did have, though, in, um, within the military. A civilian employee, Um, he was a financial advisor. Charles Jones. I'll mention his name because Charles, unfortunately I believe, has passed away. Uh, and in fact, I think I believe he was killed. Um, not so many years ago, Charles was outwardly gay. He was [00:07:00] quite camp, and and he thoroughly delighted in upsetting the hetero normal paradigm. He would, um, because he was of his station within the civilian employees. He frequented the officer's mess, too. And he delighted in nothing more than, um, sidling up to these butch young officers full of themselves and their and their masculinity and, uh, and challenging them on it. And, uh, yeah, he had a great a great way of [00:07:30] discomforting, um, people and, uh and yeah, it was just they didn't have any way of dealing with it because the behaviour was so foreign to to the guys in the army, and it's, uh, the senior officers thought it was fabulous. I'm not sure they encouraged him, but they didn't discourage him either. So, you know, Charles became quite a favourite with the with some very prominent, um, military people in the end, but he he was in a civilian role very much in a civilian [00:08:00] role. So Yeah, there was nobody that I knew of at that time who was outwardly gay. There were some ex service people, uh, who, uh, spoke out. Um, and, you know, these were, uh I think I remember one relatively senior officer, Lieutenant colonel can't remember his name. Uh, but he, um he he spoke [00:08:30] out about, uh, that he was gay, that he'd served his career and that, um, you know, and he'd been in, I think in Vietnam. Um, and, uh, you know, those sorts of things sort of brought down a realisation. It started me questioning, uh, a lot to, um, about, like my grandfather being in the great war at Gallipoli. Um, and just starting to wonder how many how many of homosexuals [00:09:00] and and lesbian, um, identify or even transgender people, uh, went away there, and probably how many of them went away with that underlying sense that that I had when I joined the military, which was just post, um, Vietnam. The idea of taking an honourable suicide that, uh, you know, I'd be the one to lead the charge so that I could go down, You know, rather than pulling the trigger myself, get [00:09:30] myself into a position where the bad guy shoots me down, doing the glorious charge of the light brigade sort of thing. Uh, and where Where? I. I could kill myself effectively. But do it with that didn't detract from the of the family and everything else. Uh, it made me realise, too, in that sort of thinking, how many people must be in the military who have similar kinds of thoughts? You know, suicide takes on various [00:10:00] very many forms and having lived it myself, um, I suspect that, uh, that's part of the reason why a lot of, uh, a lot of queer identifying people who are struggling, uh, to make it outside might actually join the military. And it's a good place to hide. People don't go looking for queer folk in a in an army type situation. Or maybe it was a bit different, but that was almost compulsory there. So sorry. That's just a bit of a disservice, rival. [00:10:30] But you were I was Yeah, II. I was You know, the army was the real grunting place the macho hands on masculine, hard graft type of thing. And then within that, I was engineers, which was sort of the the of the macho, I guess, in a way, um, the it wasn't that we were there shoving bayonets into people and doing everything and all that sort of combative stuff. But, you know, the work we did was [00:11:00] was very physical and and demanding. And, um and, uh, yeah, fit in that same engineering paradigm. When did you join the army? Oh, gosh. I joined the TERRITORIALS. I went on the ninth Territorial Force intake with my, uh, school friend, um, in January of 1975. And, uh, I almost signed up, uh, when I at that [00:11:30] point after completing my territorial training, but, um, I felt a loyalty to my my employer. Pardon me? Um, the work with my employer seem to be tailing away at, and the business I see subsequently sort of wound up or sort of wound down gradually. Uh, and and I was still keen on the military, so I signed 12 months later, I'd signed up and been enlisted into the engineers. So there's like, 1 30. [00:12:00] I think I was on. So did you join the territories? What, about 18 years old or no, I was a bit older than that. Uh oh, gosh. I say 1975. So I was 20 then and then the Army and then joined the regular force year the following year. Um, as a as a 21 year old and, uh, as a soldier, uh, and got involved in a whole lot of activities. Um, and training wise and a whole lot of courses, [00:12:30] which I perform quite well. And that encouraged my seniors to suggest that I might try for some higher station within the thing. So I ended up going away and, uh, attending a regular office, a selection board and 79. I was 1979. I spent, uh, learning how to be an officer, uh, at at the officer training officer training company there. And, uh, commissioned [00:13:00] the end of that year. Um, and the rest is history, so to speak. What rank did you get to? Um, I eventually made it to Major. Uh, I had no, as I didn't really have many aspirations beyond that, um, there was always a fear of discovery that accompanied, um, higher station. Um, it's interesting. I've often thought about [00:13:30] how I treated my fear of discovery of my femininity or my inclination towards femininity, Um, and and why I was so driven by fear. And it's it's intriguing that I wasn't fearful for myself, ever. I don't think, um, I was fearful for those things. Those the sense of shame and dishonour and everything else that I might bring, uh, to all the things I cared [00:14:00] about, which included the military, I really I mean, I thoroughly enjoyed my time in the in the Army. Uh, the opportunities are created for me. Um, and, uh uh, so, you know, and then buying further into that paradigm by having Children and everything else It just sort of weighed ever more heavily upon me, that sort of responsibility. And and so the fear of discovery became greater. The further up the ranks I went, the more scrutiny I was under. [00:14:30] And so while there was an element of ambition, there was also this other thing of saying we hold back sort of thing, and it does make me wonder. Had there been a much more open and accepting Um regime within the military that, uh, that permitted people to be all that they could be, uh, just how much more I might have been or might allow myself to be in there. But it's all conjecture now, so, you know. No, I have no regrets [00:15:00] at all. What would they have been able to discover? Well, I was, uh, all my life I, I I've spent all my life trying to trying to repress my femininity, which, you know, my desire to express. My femininity usually came and dressing feminine. Um and you know, sometimes, uh, venturing out mostly at night, [00:15:30] you know, dark or whatever. Um and and and dangerous places I guess would be the right term. Because, you know, I, I just couldn't because of all that fear, I couldn't go and venture into your local cinema or anything else. And, um and of course, being so fundamentally butcher, I guess, would be the term in that the I could II I never felt that I could express myself as possibly [00:16:00] feminine. So that increased my my, uh, chances of being recognised and and discovered. Um, So, um yeah, um, those You know, those those that need to express myself, uh, would manifest at any moment. There was nothing that I I planned or anything else. It was It was just that that need to [00:16:30] express that femininity would, uh, would come upon me. And, uh, and, uh, I would find, um I'd try and fight it, but at the end, I'd have to I'd have to express it in some way. And, uh, and a lot of those ways would be considered in the normative narrative, um, inappropriate and certainly would have been inappropriate to the military. Um, and of course, that would be exacerbated by the fact that I was of reasonably high station being a commissioned officer. Were you at risk [00:17:00] of being arrested? Uh, well, in those early days, uh, potentially, Yeah, uh, sort of the places I was hanging out, um, I was it seemed that I needed to go where the gay community sort of hung out. What I didn't understand is that really gay guys weren't interested in me at all because of my femininity. Um, but that seemed to be, you know, in my naivety and and everything else, um, [00:17:30] that seemed to be the place to go I didn't I didn't really understand the drag scene, but I didn't. I didn't see that drag community as being being mine. Uh, the interactions I did have, which were few and far between with, um um, with any who were transgender, uh, just didn't quite just didn't quite register with me. Um, and, uh, so [00:18:00] I was I was sort of lost in this in this identity thing. And, uh, you know, I honestly believed for all the time I was in the military, and all the time growing up until I left the military Until a few years after I left the military, I honestly believed that I was absolutely unique. And, um and just some aberration that, uh, that had no, no, like, uh, anywhere else in the world. Who did you talk to about it? Didn't speak to anybody, Something. I worked [00:18:30] out myself and the internet came to my aid. In the end. I, um the internet and, uh, an underground, um, scene, uh, B DS M. Um, I. I linked up with a group, uh, here. When By that time I was living in, um, hut Valley, and I kind of the internet had exposed me to, um, to [00:19:00] quite a lot, I. I I kind of I thought sissy boy site sort of thing might be for me. Uh, and I went into into some sites that I that that were around at the time, and, um, it was interesting reading the forums and and so forth, because all of a sudden I realised My God, I'm not unique. I'm not this one off. Here are people who share the same fears. You know, lifestyles. [00:19:30] They're trapped in a they're trapped in a normative lifestyle with family and everything else. Um, they I, I think, like me genuinely love their families that the families in the world that they created but it was incomplete because of this desire to express their femininity but unable to do that with the people they love because of the the threat of losing and the shame and all those other things that are associated with it. And so we were all living this double [00:20:00] life and all of it, fraught with fear of discovery and and all sorts of stuff. And and of course, in that sort of environment, you live in a you live in a sort of an imaginary world, and and your imagining your imagination takes you anywhere you care to go sort of thing. Uh, so there's a lot of fantasy and and other stuff, um, attached to, uh, attached to the to the, um forum discussions and everything else. [00:20:30] But when you filtered through those things, you could start to start to identify these common characteristics and everything else. And I started to realise that that maybe I was transgender that, um, and reading these articles and how and seeing transsexuals at the far end of the scheme to to the, um the cross dresser who might just enjoy wearing his wife's knickers or whatever off to work, [00:21:00] sort of thing. We're all of us somewhere on a on a scale or a grey scale of of non binary gender. Um, and, you know, somewhere along that way we find our comfort place that, uh, that allows us to express ourselves without, um without compromising other things that might be important to us, to us. Um, but I still didn't feel like I had a place where I could go and do that, and that's I sort of drew into the B DS M scene. [00:21:30] Um and that proved a an unusual, um, and a lot better enlightening experience in and of itself. Uh, I learned the difference between tolerance and acceptance, which is a big part of what's going on in the society even now, I think, um, yeah. What? What do you mean? Um, a lot of people who think they're accepting are actually tolerant, but they don't accept. They're they're still stuck [00:22:00] in either a binary sort of a construct or whatever construct that they that they formed of their world view. Um, they are set in that in that world view, but they will tolerate somebody having a different perspective on things, but they won't accept it. So, um, one of the interesting discussions I and it's not to do with so much with sexuality, But one of the interesting discussions I used to have with, um with people when they started talking this dominant [00:22:30] versus submissive type thing. And there's any number of these so-called dominants who, um who talk about putting on their dom hat and and playing like playing a role. I mean, I, I know we all play a role in life, and in general. But when somebody, when when somebody goes into a scene like a B DS M scene, whether it's a group sitting or play hitting or whatever with somebody else. [00:23:00] And in order to do that, they have to adopt a persona in order to fulfil the role that they want to want to play in that thing. You Are they truly a dominant or are they just a top? And so when somebody would say to me that you know, they put on their dome hat and carry out a performance or whatever else I would question them and say, Well, when you take your dome hat off, are you still dominant? And if they're not still dominant, then I would argue they're not dominant. [00:23:30] They're a top, um, but they don't want to see that, because by being by not being a dominant means that they that they can't exercise that control and so forth that they are looking for. And so then it starts to open up the discussion about their misogyny or whatever else. And, uh, so, needless to say, I didn't make many friends that many friends within the B DS M scene because I asked the hard [00:24:00] questions, and and I challenged them on that the same. Same with somebody who is, um, who might have been a sadist. And and if I say well, you will you play with me And they said, No, I'm I only play with women. I said, But you're a sadist. Yes, I said, Well, surely the canvass doesn't. Doesn't matter. You know, I enjoy pain or receiving pain. So why, Why what? What's your [00:24:30] problem with administering pain to me? If you're a sadist, I'm a sexual sadist. And I would say, no, you're a misogynist. That didn't go down my line. But it was a It was a It was enlightening. It really taught me a lot about people. And and And I've seen those parallels with those sorts of discussions within the queer community as well. Um, and and and in life in general. Yeah. When were you first starting to find those communities? Uh oh, gosh. It [00:25:00] was a long, um, a few years after I left the military, um, would have been early two thousands. I think by then. Yeah, yeah, it was I went Yeah, because I went into another relationship with a woman. Who was I? I'm pleased to say I still haven't attached a relationship with, uh, but my femininity got in the way of that. That relationship? Um, quite quite severely. But, um, Mar? Yeah. [00:25:30] Laura was remarkably intelligent and capable woman, and an had an understanding of what I was going through because she actually took the time to research. Uh, so she understood how I couldn't not do my feminine thing, and she we had an arrangement where she could allow me to, um, express that when I needed to. [00:26:00] But, um, it wasn't enough, is it? I'd started to explore my femininity, and, um and, uh, yeah, I was a little bit like a racehorse in the, um, in the starting gates at that point, and I was ready to bolt. So and, uh, yeah, uh, it's kind of sad in some ways, but, uh, but I'm I'm really grateful that, uh, that I had daughter and her family in my life at that time. Um, I'm sorry for the way things wound up between [00:26:30] us, but, um, but, uh, yeah, it was It was good for me. Um, I think having that having that time and and helping to discover myself, too. And the fact that yeah, it was it was no longer any opportunities to play half games that I just had to bite the bullet and take the chances. Did you find for yourself that the passing of the homosexual law reform legislation and then later the human rights legislation that they [00:27:00] had, that you felt that they had much impact on your life? Not at all. The homosexual law reform didn't seem to apply to me because I still saw myself as as heterosexual. Um, I I don't really find men male, sexually attractive. Um and so for me, it was kind of irrelevant, uh, for me personally in [00:27:30] that sort of context. And but I But I was forming the very much the view that you know didn't matter the role. Mhm. Not so much the role that they had then the role later on, when the Because when the Homosexual Law Reform Act was passed, the military had an exception. And so the the initial passing of the act didn't greatly affect the military, and we just sort of rolled on and [00:28:00] sort of waved our hands at society out there and say, Well, you know, you get on a deal, But we were witness to changes and stuff and and we could see that it it didn't didn't have that horrendous effect on on the way people conducted their lives that, uh, that we we anticipated might have befallen, uh, the military. It was later in the early nineties when, um when the exemption was went up for review and was subsequently rescinded. And, [00:28:30] uh, yeah, that was an interesting time for us for us. Um, by that time, I had reached the rank of major and was in charge of the school of military engineering, and I had a responsibility as a what they called the head of court to represent, um, soldiers within my area. Uh, when we get together and discuss postings and development of careers and promotions and you know, courses and other things that, um, [00:29:00] that people under our under our auspices, um needed to to develop and further their careers. And I part of my responsibility was Wau engineers based in, uh in. And we had a, um um about the time the review was coming up for I think it's second reading So, um uh, submissions were being sought for and against for those subcommittee, [00:29:30] um, discussion. And, um, about that time we had an incident in where, um, one of one of the people that was loosely under my control. Um, my my auspices. Uh, he ended up being raped. He'd, um, crashed out after having a night of boozing in one of the bars and staggering back to his barracks. It collapsed in a drunken heap. And [00:30:00] he was found and, um, in a compromising state and had been assaulted. And so that set up an investigation. As you as you would imagine, Um, and a few days after the investigation was carried out was started a, um, living in single, um, senior NGO was found hanged in his barrack room and the story as it [00:30:30] unfolded, uh, was that that sergeant had come out as gay to his, um, to his family, and the family had disowned him, threatened him with all sorts of, um, repercussions. And so, in desperation, he joined the military in the hope that being amongst these bloke blokes, he would be cured. And I'm not sure how he lived his life. We don't know the personal details, [00:31:00] of course, but he'd succumbed to this particular opportunity. Um, and he had assaulted this soldier and couldn't live with the shame and the dishonour that that had, uh, uh, created for him. This really sad thing was that one of my peers, um, not from another core was, um, using that incident to justify why homosexuality [00:31:30] should continue to be exam should be exempted from or should not be allowed, um, and legalised within the military. And, um uh, he came. He came to my office at the school and, um, and asked me to sign up to this petition and submission that he was He had written, and I refused to, um I pointed out to him that that was ridiculous, that to, um that be [00:32:00] if we didn't have that stupid law, we could have avoided the double tragedy that had occurred. And we would still have two fully functioning, competent soldiers doing good work for our community. And you're you're gonna carry on with that stupid stuff. So I said, no, I'm sorry. That's it. He and I never spoke again after that. I know, but I'm you know, I had no problems with it by that stage. And, um, I get [00:32:30] sad. Yeah, we we I thought we'd moved on. I had when you left, the military was set around when you started to seek out more people or more understanding of what, um, where you were at in the world. Um, well, my marriage had pretty much disintegrated by that point. It was hanging on by a thread, um, for various reasons. [00:33:00] But, you know, we both have had a part to play, and I've realised since that, um, my living that double life that I that I had and throughout that our relationship was effectively me cheating on on her, even though I was cheating with my other persona and and and raising my other persona, Uh, it was in effect. It was just as dishonest as if I was being, um um, you know, with with [00:33:30] another woman or or whatever. Um and so, uh, yeah, um, we'd grown apart quite significantly. And I mean, so I, um So my marriage was disintegrating. I just clicked on almost 21 years, just under 21 years in the army by that stage. And so I, um, I, I thought If I'm going to make a change and do something with my life, then you [00:34:00] know this is the time. And so I got out and, uh, I I looked around, and, um, I'd seen this opportunity with this, um, charter fishing business that had a had a, um a fishing retail outlet attached as part of the setup. And I thought that's something I was really interested in. And, uh, and it's a field that I wanted to get involved in as a charter skipper. Um, so I thought, Yeah, that's I'll push for that. And, uh, yeah, turned out to be not [00:34:30] such a wise choice, but But it was a fun time. I, I, um I had that, uh I have to call her a ship because she was registered as a ship, even though she was only, uh, 10. 5 metres long at the waterline. Um, I had I had her until early two thousands was when I sold that, and we sailed it up to Auckland, which was an adventure in and of itself. Have you ever thought of or have you lived overseas? [00:35:00] Yeah. Yeah, I lived in, um I. I was posted to Singapore for, um, for a couple of years, Uh, two years and about three months. And, uh, in Singapore. I think it worked out in the end. Uh, I spent six months in the Middle East. Um, that was the longest duration post, and I had a lot of other short term post spent six months doing a course in, uh, in in Australia. Um, I guess that's living there. Um, and then a lot of other shorter [00:35:30] duration, uh, trips around the world and to other locales. Yeah, all all very much associated with the military. And, uh, yeah, we did have an incident when I was in the Middle East. Um, again, we had a There was a civilian employee contractor who was a He's a Brit, one of the cooks, Um, and he was quite openly gay. Um, but [00:36:00] he'd, um he was a There was a party one night, and I remember he he dressed himself up in a nun's outfit, and, uh, and he had a light arrangement battery light arrangement set up with a light. He could press a switch and he'd have this light flashing about his groyne. You see underneath his nun's habit thing, but, you know, quite visible. Um, and that was a little signal trip that he took. Um, [00:36:30] they went out drinking. There was a lot of drinking done in the in the base camp area that, uh, back then and, um uh, he'd been partying up with some of the Americans at one of the American bars. And apparently he and one of the soldiers went back to one of the others barracks, And, uh, some MP, S or other were, uh, were watching and observed this. So they followed. Followed [00:37:00] them into, uh, caught them in a compromising, um, situation. So, uh, he was packed up and sent back to, uh to, uh the UK. And I think the, um, the American soldier was, uh, faced Anna and summary dismissal. So, um, yeah, yeah, I think that's Yeah. That no back then was in 1986. So no, we [00:37:30] were still we would have had the same sort of outcomes and amongst for any of our soldiers at that time, too, because it was still illegal, for it's still illegal for soldiers to engage in homosexual acts. Where do you find your community now? everywhere. Uh, I find I I found it really difficult to associate with, uh, any of the trans groups, even a gender. Um [00:38:00] uh, in the early days, I I attended a I thought I would try and get some support through associating with agenda. Um, but I went to a barbecue, um, one time, and there was a collection of people here, and, uh, it was there was a lot of politics going on. Um, but there was also this expectation that, you [00:38:30] know, you had to buy into this binary You are. Either, you know, either male or female. You were either man or woman. You there was No, there was no middle ground. And I I had for many years struggled while while I was growing up. It was nothing I would have loved more than to have been, uh, been a woman. And I and I, you know, I watched those old movies with, um Doris Day and Shirley McLean. Gina Lola Bridge. Um, of course. [00:39:00] Um, the gorgeous um Sophia Loren. Still gorgeous. Sophia Loren. Go. I think I knew you were going to say her name for some reason. You just can't avoid it. can you really? But there but there, you know, there was so much, so much glamour and and and I guess that form of beauty around in those days. But But I associated with more with the likes of the Doris Day. You know, I don't know whether if you recall Doris Day movies where where she played opposite, um, Rock [00:39:30] Hudson. Um, but in that in that somewhat comical sort of bimbo, but still competent but cute and cuddly and desirable and and, you know, manifestly trying to please a man, but at the same time, being this competent, capable woman who's raising Children or looking after life and other things in general. And it was that I was I identified well with the sort of ordinariness rather than the [00:40:00] the glamour that that many of the American actresses sort of tended to portray and still tend to portray. I think they don't seem to have that natural grace of and and that natural beauty that the, um, European, um, actresses, um, portray And, um and then I Then I you shooting McLane. But but she was one of those sort of Doris day type roles she used to play and and, um, and the million dollar legs. So I Yeah, [00:40:30] III I had these and I used to imagine me, me being them there was even even later on when we see me staring at, Used to check off at me for staring at at young women. But, you know, I couldn't explain to them, and I'm measuring up what they're wearing as to how that might look on me. So I just had to play the dirty old man type of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all the difficulties playing a double [00:41:00] life thing. Yeah, might make some sense to them now, in hindsight, but, um, yeah, it was, um yeah, those were interesting. Interesting times. II. I I wanted to be a II. I often imagined, you know, when I go to bed at night and sleeping and I often imagine being like Doris Day or like, um, you know, Hayley molls when I was younger, she was one who I you know, I. I [00:41:30] sort of fantasised being, um and, um and and and I, you know, join the military sort of thing. The the idea of being captured and forced feminised sort of thing as part of that where I wouldn't have to take responsibility for being feminised so I could I could justifiably come back to my family and say, Well, you know, this is what they've done to me. But yeah, you know, I like it. So I gotta carry on. [00:42:00] The military was going to do this? Well, no, not the military, but the bad guys, you know, I know it was. I mean, those are the kinds of fantasies, you know. How. How? How? How How could I ever become a woman from where I am sort of stuff And and it didn't seem to me to be any way to do that. And and then, as as I, I guess, as I gone through puberty and and and doing all that macho [00:42:30] sort of stuff, the stuff that's associated with being a bloke. I was diving and playing rugby and drinking an awful lot. And and various other things. Um uh, and smoking like a chimney. Um, so I you know, II. I also had this side of me that kind of enjoyed the bloke sort of stuff. And and so in my binary thinking, it was one or the other. There was no there was never going to be any in between. And I [00:43:00] found that when I started engaging with, um with agenda and the others that there there wasn't any mid middle point. If I was in the middle somewhere, then I was a pervert or or I was, Yeah, you know, I was, Yeah, basically a pervert that I was, you know, that I was in it for for some sexual kick or whatever. Uh, and that sort of spurred guilt, feelings and and everything else. So I, I didn't find soccer in any any groups at all. Um, I basically did it on my own. [00:43:30] Um, but I did have I did run into a friend who hangs around, uh, still in the on the periphery of, um of things at the moment. And, uh, she was, uh, living in a at the time. Um, I'm not sure how we came across each other. To be honest, it was something we did online. We just shared some opinions or whatever. Um, and she wrote a fantastic [00:44:00] poem about I am called I am FM F. I am. I wish I could remember it. I'm sure it's tucked away somewhere and something of a one of my files on a computer, Maybe. I hope. Um and, uh and she became a really a really good support for me. She validated the fact that I, you know, I didn't really have to go. I didn't have to play these these games that these other groups were were pushing [00:44:30] it. You know, there was a middle ground where where you can you can still walk, exist and and and play a value, uh, valued role and and and the community in general. And, uh and so she she inspired me in a in many ways to, um, to take both sides of who I am and, uh, and just exist. But II, I never found myself complete unless I was presenting them. [00:45:00] I you know, I And so the first time I was able to I found myself in the middle of the day walking around and and not passing because, you know, people clearly saw the stuff, but I saw that I was They saw me as a man in a in a skirt. Um but it was interesting because I I knew that if I was going to do this. I had to hold my head up. I. I didn't want to carry a sign around that said I'm [00:45:30] a victim Pick on me. So I had to hold my head up. And, uh and it was an interesting social experiment for me, because for the first time, and and knowing that about me and daring to engage people, that with eye contact, it was they who turned away, not me. And And I realise, uh, you know, I don't have to fulfil some stereotypical role or whatever I can just be [00:46:00] And, um, yeah, that's how it turned out. I used to fantasise about walking down Lampton Quay. Uh, and in the day, you know, broad daylight, um, you know, dressed firm. And, um and the thought of that was was was stimulating and, you know, fought with all sorts of expectation and whatever else [00:46:30] and the first time I did it, um, there was there was nothing sexual or stimulating or anything else about it all. It was a sense of I'm home. Hm. Mhm. Fairly recently. Um, Shelley I. I know that you did a social experiment. Where you, um [00:47:00] put a sign on yourself. Invited people to hug you. Yeah. Do you want to speak about that? Um, OK, yeah. Um I saw a, um, clip on, um, online of a of a guy doing a social experiment in, Um, I think it was in Romania, and, uh, and he put up a sign just saying I you know, I respect you. Will you respect me? Hug me? And he stood there with a blindfold on, and his arms [00:47:30] had come back in a in a busy pedestrian walkway. And, um, and people would stop see what was going on, because it's an unusual thing. And, um, and and engage with them. And I thought, you know, that was that was kind of profound. It was a It was a nice little social experiment. It's it it it demonstrated that humanity that I think is inherent in all of us and that we all want to express, but, uh, we just need sometimes we need an excuse or a reminder about to to go about demonstrating [00:48:00] that, um And then there was the, uh, youth 12 report. Sort of came out, um, a little while after that, And I was, um I was actually prompted to write to the local rag. Uh, an article about, uh, the importance of still, um, following [00:48:30] the old sword takes a village to raise a child that we all, as adults need to have to take take responsibility for all of our young people. And part of that is taking particularly taking care of our of our, um, queer youth. We need to include them and and everything that the in the community on all levels and and it's our adult responsibility to do that kind of backing up organisation like schools out, which presents the youth perspective from the bottom end. And I was trying [00:49:00] to target the adults at the top end and saying, Hey, you know, we can squeeze this into the middle and and achieve a nice little tasty sandwich that, um, of of, of acceptance and tolerance, because I was well aware of some pretty terrible behaviours that have been going on, um, around schools and affecting our youth and many of those stories, many of the much of the information, the stories about the bullying and the other issues that our, um, queer youth and in particular our transgender [00:49:30] youth are enduring were button pressing for me because they represented the fears that I had when I was growing up about being discovered. And the things the things that I feared would have happened to me were happening still, uh, in this supposedly more informed, um, period in our lives and more informed society that these these issues are still going on and and our young people are killing themselves, [00:50:00] the youth 12 report raised some important issues. Uh, and it was the first time that the Youth 2000 series of studies by Auckland um University of Technology has has conducted, uh, where they've included the transgender question and, uh, apparently came as quite a surprise as to the fact that 4% as much as 4% identified as non gender non-binary [00:50:30] conforming, uh, binary gender conforming and um, that of, um, that 2% so half of that 4% identified specifically as transgender uh, which meant that organisations like educational institutes and social support institute organisations and that needed to start paying attention to that reality and adjusting the way they do their business. And hopefully if they're smart enough, changing the way that the language and the narrative [00:51:00] that they use in dealing with young people. But the thing that concerned me is that, um those those sorts of reports and the information they contain generally stay confined within a very limited circle of society that the wider public has not kept abreast of those. And I thought, How can I How can I get this information out there more widely? And, uh And so I went back to this. I thought back to this, um, hug thing. [00:51:30] And, uh, so I decided that I would, uh, emulate that. And so I, um, respect as a I didn't use I use the word honour. So, um, um, I hit it on a couple of levels. I made up one sign, um, which says I honour you. Will you honour me? I hug me. Um oh, sorry. It starts out. I am transgender. [00:52:00] I honour you. Will you honour me and hug me? Uh, I as a part of that experiment, I I pushed the boundary a little bit more, and I put the preemptive and and with, uh, the diminutive and the, um, English subtitles, if you like. So in the in the smaller print underneath. So that was one sign I put I used to the other side and the other sign I summarised the trans the the data from the youth 12 [00:52:30] report onto, um, onto another, another form, and, uh, and summarise that with the commentary that despite all of those negative, um, the negative data that that was, uh, that I extracted from that report that transgender youth are still the most active of sector of that youth community in terms of helping and assisting others. And, um [00:53:00] and so, you know, that's that's putting information out there. And I thought it was a good way to get people to pay attention to that information. I'm hoping to develop that into a into a, um, kind of a documentary. I have a friend who's been filming some of those engagements for me, and, um, uh, we're gonna expand it to ask people after they've engaged with me when I'm doing this, Uh, we're gonna ask people what they plan to do with the information, [00:53:30] because now they're informed they don't have an excuse for not doing anything. And so it's gonna It's gonna be a challenge. And that's and and it'll summarise in the documentary at the end. But, um, you know it. It's just my small way of saying, grow up, people. Be a village. What happened when you first did this? Quite overwhelming. Um, when did I first do it? I. I did [00:54:00] it. It was the day, um, Dan New Zealand played England at, um, at the for the, um, C World Cup. And, um so there was quite a few people and I stood at Middleton Park. I think it was Middleton Park on, uh, on Lampton. And, um, uh, it was bad timing because there was another activity that occurred in behind it sort of overwhelmed things a little bit. Um, [00:54:30] but I suppose I engaged with, uh, 20 or 30 people. Uh, park. Yeah. Um, people coming by, uh, some remarkable, um, quite a remarkable engagements. You know, people would apparently stand and watch. Um, everybody thought I was very brave. I was blindfolded. Yeah, completely blindfolded. I can't see a thing with a blindfold on and standing with my arms spread. [00:55:00] Um, but yeah, a mixture of, um, a mixture of people. Interesting. I had a couple of guys on the occasion I've had quite a few clearly males I could feel from from their attire and the way they they hug me and and from their voices, they're clearly male. But, uh, there's been more than one who has said to me as we are hugging from one to another, Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So it's Yeah, there's, um [00:55:30] there's there's I've done it And I did it. The the Cuba night. I did it outside Scottie and Ms Bar. Uh, that was an interesting experiment. Um, one guy with a group which clearly with a group they'd obviously been eating or partying through the downed Cuba streets. And there was one guy who was struggling to deal with. He was being egged on to do the hug thing with me, but he was clearly uncomfortable [00:56:00] with the whole thing. And in the end, he, um, under pressure, I think, because he wanted to school with one of the women who who just who had hugged with him and engaged. So, uh, yeah, typical typical male. So this I call him a moron because I think it was his way of engaging was to come up and grab me and lift me off the ground and spin me around. So I had no idea. So showing how buff and strong and macho he was but, you know, engaging. [00:56:30] But yeah, there was. There was there was no engagement there. The hugs you can you can feel the sincerity in some of the hugs. There's some some of the women in particular will come up. And you and you, you know, you get a heart to heart hug. Where you you you feel the hearts engaging and and you know there's sincerity in it. Um, some of them feel the hug is, you know, they they feel they're obliged to make the gesture because they've stopped and they've seen others doing it. And you [00:57:00] can feel the distance. They keep a distance even though they wrap their arms around you. But there's there's a distance between you. It's it's palpable. Um, and those are the people I'd like to question as to you know, now that you've got this information, you know how How are you going to deal with it? What are you What are you going to tell your Children? What are you going to tell your partner? What are you gonna do? What are you going? Are you going to go to the to the local board of trustees now and tell them that we have to do more for for identifying youth? I guess that's coming. The full circle back to your questions [00:57:30] around what's tolerance and what's acceptance exactly exactly. Yeah, it's, uh, it it, Yeah, people conflate the two, I think, and they they figure I can. I can tolerate that person being queer so long as they do it doesn't interfere with my life. That's not acceptance at all, you know, And and And that and those attitudes we have to work on and and so on. Um, there's a lot of ways that we can do that, and part of that is this other thing that I'm trying to do at the moment [00:58:00] is, um is take the queer community and give back to the wider community. I think I think the queer community tends to be very introspective, and it looks after itself, which is fine. I don't have a problem with that. Uh, we invite the outer community to partake with us if they if they so choose. Uh, but it's usually only allies and immediate family sort of thing. That that will will take part part in that it doesn't really engage with the wider consciousness of the community. But [00:58:30] so I'm I'm proposing, uh, and I've raised this through, uh, rainbow wellington. Uh, with so with their endorsement, I'm, uh I'm taking a an idea to, um, engage with hopefully with the homeless, uh, in Wellington. It has a double whammy for us in ways that it shows to the wider community that we're contributing back if you like, um, but also because we are disproportionately represented. The queer people are disproportionately [00:59:00] represented amongst homeless. Then it's it's also a a AAA nice way to give back to some of our own, too. And and I just think it's important that we we recognise that, you know, we we queer folk, have for many years not been afforded the dignity of being ourselves. And, you know, we're doing the same. All of us are doing the same queer folk and team included for people like the homeless and other destitute [00:59:30] people. We're depriving them of their dignity. Uh, you know, So we we need I think we need to do more in that sort of regard. Many of my fears in coming out have been realised, and particularly in terms of my relationship with my family, Uh, that's at best strained. Um, and I'm not sure whether or how that might ever be bridged or if it will ever get back to what it used [01:00:00] to be. But my goodness, um, I guess by not aligning myself with any particular organisational structure or whatever else that I've been able to embrace, uh, a really remarkably diverse range of people and, um, and being me now, the person I am now, uh, has brought so many wonderful people in my life, and I'm grateful for that.

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TITLE: Kay Jones - homosexual law reform
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VOICES: Kay Jones
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; AIDS Support Network; Alan Cumming; Alison Laurie; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Bob McCoskrie; Brian Tamaki; Charles Chauvel; Chinese; Club 41; Common Ground (Wellington); DOODS (Dykes Out Of Debt); Department of Internal Affairs; Don't ask, don't tell (DADT); GLAD (Gays and Lesbians Against Discrimination); Gay-TMs (teller machines); HIV / AIDS; Heterosexuals Unafraid of Gays (HUG); Human Rights Act (1993); Human Rights Commission; Kay Jones; Lesbian Information, Library and Archives Centre (LILAC); Lesbian Line (Wellington); Liberation Books (Wellington); Masterton; Member of Parliament; New Zealand Council of Trade Unions (CTU); Norman Jones; Parliament buildings; Pink Triangle collective; Playboy (magazine); Rainbow Tick; Salvation Army; Sister Paula Brettkelly; State Sector Act (1988); Stonewall riots (1969); The Glamaphones; The Queer Avengers (Wellington); Victoria Club; Wellington; Wellington Bisexual Women's Group; West Coast; accessibility; activism; anger; bars; bigotry; bisexual; bisexual erasure; blogs; butch; children; church; coming out; communication; crime; dance; disability; discrimination; diversity; equal employment opportunities; equality; faith; feminism; flamboyant; flaming; friends; health; health system; history; homophobia; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; human rights; humour; identity documents; institutional racism; labels; language; law; lesbian; marriage; marriage equality; media; meetings; newspapers; parties; pedophilia; physics; pink dollar; police; pornography; protest; queer bashing; queer workers rights group; relationships; safe space; saunas; school; sexism; sexuality; silo; social justice; social media; state sector reforms; teaching; theatre sports; transgender; transition; transphobia; unions; university; women
DATE: 14 October 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Kay talks about homosexual law reform activities in Auckland and Wellington, challenging inequality and bisexual erasure.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: In the 19 eighties, I moved from Wellington where I was born. I'm a third generation Wellington up to Auckland because my partner at the time had a job, Um, training and a job up there. And so I got a job there. And so Auckland is a new city for me. Got to know a lot of new people. I was working during the time that, um there was both state sector reforms happening. I became a union delegate. I got active in that scene and homosexual law reform Bill was introduced into parliament and that was something I'd [00:00:30] been supporting for ages. Even at high school, I had my parents in tears when I had signed a petition and had my name appear in the paper and they said I'd never get a job. And it will direct my my career and and life forever after. So then when the bill was introduced, you can imagine I was I was pretty excited. I I went to see Oh, who's the local support people? I got a badge from, um the hug people heterosexuals. I'm afraid of gays. Now I'm bisexual, so I feel a bit bug wouldn't really make sense. [00:01:00] Um, and I wore that to my job at the office, and the deputy superintendent called me into his office and said, You can't wear that in the office because it might upset some of the people that we work with. The clients, the training supervisors. Um, I said to him, Well, does that mean that the person wearing a cross around on the chain around their neck should also take it off? And he said, Hm, yes. Um, well, maybe, But didn't give a firm view on [00:01:30] that. Um, so I took it off out of respect and because he was the boss. But I was, you know, as I shared with my union delegates, Look, we all know that he's in the closet, He's gay, he's got a male partner. And personally, he will be happy if that bill goes through. But professional separate from personal. So but at the same time, we were dealing every day with people from the Salvation Army who were running training courses who were requiring supervisors and students on their courses [00:02:00] to go out and get petitions signed. They were going up and down Queen Street, making people sign things and the we are including people who were gay, gay supervisors, gay students who had no choice, and they had to do it or they'd be kicked out of their jobs or kicked out of the training course. So how did how did you know about that? Um, I knew about it because I was working with the students, referring them, and sometimes they would tell me things about Oh, isn't it stupid that so and so is doing it because we all know he's queer as And we also [00:02:30] knew about, um, one of the supervisors who the kids told me about him and his partner, and there was another woman who was doing it, who was very much keeping it on the down low about what was going on. But you can't hide things from students on training courses because we're talking in some cases, street kids who've been living rough, who've been, you know, dealing with issues that meant, yeah, they they would take any opportunity to get training and get a better life. And if that meant that, they had to say, take some stupid piece of paper and get people to sign and they'd do [00:03:00] it themselves. They didn't really on that level care. They thought it was just another case of being bullied by the system. So that was sort of where we knew it was happening. But at the same time, we had the clear message that we couldn't interfere because it wasn't actually going against the training they were getting. And as a government worker, there's rules and how you can do things. Um, this is this is, you know, the same Auckland central office where a former MP used to work during the day job and at the lunchtime would go out with a loudspeaker [00:03:30] and be yelling things against the government of the day because there was, you know, he didn't get fired, But it was just like there was a real separation of what you did at work. And what you did in your personal life wasn't something that the, um department wanted to know about. I mean, it wasn't approving, but it wasn't actually sacking people for it, because I think, as opposed to the days in the seventies when I sort of signed a petition supporting homosexual law reform and my cousin who was gay but wouldn't admit [00:04:00] to it, but he sort of said later that, Yeah, that's one of the reasons he went to Australia because he was scared that he would be arrested and thrown in jail. So for me, that's one of the reasons why you know, the law absolutely had to change. Aside from being fair, it's like it was affecting people that I knew, um, as a woman. It wasn't affecting me, but, um, I tend to actually take some of these things literally. You know, whether it's church teachings or, um, messaging [00:04:30] about being fair and kind to people and treating everybody equally and loving my neighbour. So, you know, growing up with that whole hang on, this isn't fair. And I suppose also my, um, grandmother, who was a church elder again, was doing that whole thing of. There's a reason why you have to ensure that everybody is treated fairly, because if other people aren't treated fairly, then you can't sleep at night, you know? So that's something that I suppose I grew up with. And that is, I think, part of the the [00:05:00] um Wellington lower middle class, poor background, which, if you didn't have much you still shared it with with people in in the family or or connection. So that fact that there was a law that meant that my cousin was scared to live his life in in New Zealand and went to a bigger place where he could be anonymous was like, Ah, this this just doesn't, you know, make any sense? So in Auckland, Um, I wasn't an organiser. I didn't know the people, but I went along to as many meetings as I could. I I protest [00:05:30] as I wore the badge before I had to take it off, and then I put it on the moment I walked out the door, Um, I went to community meetings, I bumped into an old school friend and he hadn't known that I was queer. I hadn't known he was gay. It was a really great sort of, you know, meeting because it was sort of affirming the fact that we could be more open because we weren't suddenly gonna have everybody sort of say, Oh, you're a nasty whatever. Um, and as the [00:06:00] whole um process went, went on where there were people on television nights and stuff in the paper and there were those who were total homophobes doing, um, really abusive language and other people saying, Hey, no, this isn't right. And a lot of people in the middle who like it didn't affect them personally. But when they saw some of the stupidities, they started saying, Well, actually, it doesn't affect me negatively. Um, I think, you know, give them, give them the law change. I mean, you know what's what's the harm? So [00:06:30] that was part of the Auckland context. And then because my partner, um, qualified and we moved back to Wellington and I got a job, um, in a different government agency and still part of the union and been able to actually go along to the real protests where we would be on the steps of parliament, we would be sort of in the in the streets and yeah, it it got quite heated because there were, I don't know, right wing Christian. Um [00:07:00] um, bigots yelling abuse. And there was us on the other side yelling back. And I used to be quiet and shy, and people now wouldn't believe that. Um, but it was a real feeling of camaraderie that when you're with other people on the same march or in the same space. And you've all got that same anger then it actually does give you courage to keep on going. And that was one of the things that I found really good I. I sort of saw people that I'd known in different [00:07:30] settings, like the woman who sold me my first feminist books from the Women's Liberation Bookshop where I used to used to go and read the queer magazines that came from overseas. You know, I didn't buy them because, like, my parents would freak, but, um and then later on, yeah, I did get things I started even, uh, I don't know, writing stories and poetry, some of which got published in in the, um was it pink news? One of the sort of publications? Pink Triangle. Yeah, I got stuff published in that, um, [00:08:00] and it was It was just all of those little bits and pieces that started coming together. And so, um, and it's a it's a bad cons, um, sort of confession. I know. But when I go to historical events like the glamour phones singing about coming out day and sort of saying Hey, we got this, um, law change in this year. And here is some of the photos. I stopped listening, and I start looking through the photos to see if there's that me on the front picket line. And I have seen film, um, extracts from when [00:08:30] the Salvation Army presented their supposedly 800,000 signed petition, um, forms, um, which we know had Mickey Mouse on, um, the as one of the signatories. And, yes, I'm there. I'm going, you know, sort of against it. And yeah, being part of history is actually quite cool. Even if you're not sort of making it happen, it's It's, um it it gives you a sort of sense of, you know, people can make a difference. So that by the time 92 came around when [00:09:00] part two of the homosexual law reform, um, bill, which had been dropped, which is the human rights protections, Um, then I was Yes, I want to be part of this group that is actually trying to get action on it. So I joined the umbrella group Common Ground, which had, um, gay and lesbian and, um, disabled people and people who were HIV positive and with the A i DS foundation. Um, a range of of other people who were left out of the first bill. And [00:09:30] some of these people, like the some of the disabled people, they'd never actually known anybody who was openly gay or queer, and but they were willing to work alongside them, and they actually learned things. And that happened sort of both ways. And so there that was where I first met. Um um, Charles Chevelle, who later on became a, um, an MP. Um, because he was a student, sort of, you know, act being sort of active for that. And, you know, some of the letters he wrote about, like, it didn't matter whether he was gay because [00:10:00] it was environment or because of genetics or anything. He still expected to be treated fairly. So, you know, those arguments started sort of really coming through, but the personal supporting somebody and being alongside them was probably even more part of it than just the Yes, There are rational arguments to support this. It was like it became, You know, we're on this side of the argument, not that side of the argument when you saw people like, um [00:10:30] oh, what's his name? Norman Jones. You know, absolute bigot who was sort of swearing and and and in the most, you know, um, disgusting terms, Um, about people. It was like, Oh, I don't want to be associated with somebody who is that vile and that, um, um evil and wants to harm people. So obviously, when you sort of look at where you stand in the thing, even if you don't know the issues you look at, who's on which side and which are the people I want to stand with. So that made it very sort of simple for for me and and [00:11:00] for, um, you know, other other friends, Um, and some of the people I got to know then, um I still know now and have a lot of respect for even if we don't always agree with each other, you know, like Alison Laurie. Um, she was sort of the leading part of the lesbian groups, and I've been kicked out of a lot of, um, groups of queer women because I'm bisexual, not lesbian, and, you know, like even with common ground, which was trying to get this human rights thing. They had a gays and lesbians against discrimination. But I was kicked out of that because I was bisexual and not lesbian. [00:11:30] And so you know, that er obviously annoys me. But at the same time, I don't leave common ground because we do have those common things. And I respect that there is oppression and that having a safe space is important, and I don't think I'm threatening it. But, you know, differences of opinion aren't as important as actually saying, What are we trying to achieve as a goal? And so over the, um, both in Auckland and Wellington at the time of the homosexual law reform. A lot of that was just [00:12:00] those incremental little discussions with the person on the bus, the the person at the bar and some people who didn't understand. And there's even people now in my circles who still don't understand who opposed marriage equality because their church told them they should oppose it. But I think we've actually in a lot of these spaces, got a more respectful discussion of it that, um, nobody I know who has any brains. Um, and I'm possibly excluding, um, Bob McCroskey [00:12:30] and, um Brian Tamaki, Um, actually would say nasty things about somebody for being gay or lesbian or bisexual. They might still about transgender people, but they wouldn't say the nasty The things that they would say more about, uh we're supporting traditional rights, whereas back in the eighties, yeah, they would say really nasty things. All gay men are paedophiles. You know, That was a frequent thing. That sort of came out in the media. But of course, the other side of it was [00:13:00] You can start turning around saying, But my friend Mark, he's not a paedophile, He's got a he's got a boyfriend. He just wants to, you know, live his life and be, you know, a normal sort of, you know, person When I say normal, I mean, um, having a job, having a sort of, you know, reasonable recreation, playing sport, doing stuff like any other New Zealander and not worrying about whether the police are going to be knocking on the door and sort of, you know, yanking them out of bed in the middle of the night. Um, so that whole sort of I think paedophilia argument started disappearing as people started [00:13:30] knowing others who were. You know, somebody they've known for years, maybe worked with, you know, they may not like them, but they didn't think they were criminals or somebody who deserved to be treated like one. So you saw people more people coming out because of the activism around the homosexual law reform. And in the circle I was in I. I think so. Now, obviously, I was in cities. I was in Auckland and Wellington. And so it's not This is gonna be the same for people in a rural community. Although [00:14:00] even there from what I know of, um, my my cousins who were in Masterton and some of my relatives down on the West Coast Um I think, yeah, there was an awareness that, um for example, Mary and Molly shared, um, a cottage. And there was only one bedroom and people didn't say anything about it. And that was the sort of thing. And in a way, it was a classic. Don't ask, don't tell that people sometimes stopped covering up and hiding [00:14:30] quite as much. They weren't always coming out and saying, Hey, I'm gay or lesbian or bisexual or this is my lover. But they stopped panicking quite as much. And so they might be seen more in public together. They might actually arrive at the pub together and leave together. So it was that type of little change rather than sort of really big celebrated ones. And that depends, as I say on where it was in Auckland. There were, you know, you were gay club, um, clubs and and [00:15:00] and bars and people were totally open. And there were, I suppose, in a way, um, some of the gay guys I saw who were a bit flaming when they were there, but actually still toned it down when they were in their work job, and you wouldn't always know it was the same person. Um, but they start panicking quite so much if somebody from their workplace saw them at going to a particular bar. So I think there was just it was on the edges more than a really, really major shift that that's were Were you out as bisexual [00:15:30] prior to getting involved in the activism? Well, you know that coming out is a process. Um, when I was, how old would I have been? 11. I told my classmates that I liked boys and girls, and the teacher didn't really know how to take that. But that was still the teacher who had playboys in the back of the classroom cupboard that I used to find quite interesting to look at. Um, when I was 15, I told my friends at school that I was bisexual, [00:16:00] and, um, they sort of weren't quite sure what that was and sort of said, Well, that's OK, but don't make a pass at them. Um, I was sort of went along to, um I phoned lesbian line and went along to, um, Lesbian Support group type, sort of at somebody's place. And oh, and she's the person who drives my bus, and that's really cool. But I was sort of too young to feel actually that comfortable [00:16:30] in this group of older women who were. I mean, I'm sure they were wonderful, but I sort of I didn't feel quite so. Then there was university and at times at university when my when I signed the petition, when I was about 15 or 16 to sort of support law reform, Um, and my parents, um, were in tears saying I'd never get a job and was this me? And it's like Well, yeah, probably. Um but that's not the point anyway. And so I wasn't making a big point and I wasn't dating, so it was like, [00:17:00] yes, but not sort of pushing. So each time I've come out to some people, not necessarily to everybody um, written letters to, you know, progressively more and more. If people ask I, I admit it. And it was quite funny. Um, not my current workplace, but a previous one where everybody knew I was by. But the boss said, Well, he had heard that, but he didn't want to assume it unless he had heard it from me. Why? [00:17:30] Why was it of interest to him that I even raise it? Oh, it was a complaint from a different manager that one of my co-workers accused me of flaunting my sexuality in the tea room because I talked about something and this was a woman who used to make crude jokes. Um and, uh, you know, do you have to buy because you're bisexual? And I sort of, you know, I can't remember what I said. It was just as well. I'm fabulously wealthy, isn't it? um um, but when [00:18:00] I repeated that to the the that particular manager Oh, yes, not appropriate. But it was like that was, you know, and so that was, you know, I. I sort of mentioned it to the other manager about, you know, Well, it'd been that that sort of complaint and, um and that sort of, you know, I hope that that wasn't going to happen again. And, oh, no. And he didn't know anything about, you know, the the thing. Because that's the thing that some humour is. Well, it's it's people being uncomfortable about [00:18:30] something and pushing it a bit. And sometimes if the person responds back then that's sort of OK. And I didn't like it, and it was a place that had an official EEO policy. But, I mean, I don't know if you know much about bisexual erasure. Um, and the fact that, um, yeah, as I said, I've been kicked out of gay and lesbian groups. Um, they did a a survey of bisexual unionists in the trade union, Um, con um, council, which [00:19:00] was a a UK sort of one. and they'd been required to do it, so they released the survey in December and closed us at the end of January. So you can imagine that's that we don't want sponsors. But they still got, you know, 53 bisexual unionists responding saying yes, they actually got worse, um, responses negativity in the workplace from gay and lesbian unionists than they did from the straight ones because the straight ones didn't care, but that the gay and lesbian sort of once felt that it was either space being invaded or belittling their cause or whatever their reasons [00:19:30] were. So from what? From having, um, bisexual. Yeah, well, partly the thing of you know, there's no such thing as bisexuals. Um, and if you're scared to come out, um, then it's sort of no good for for gays and lesbians. Or if you're a bisexual woman going into lesbian space, then, um, you're, um, running the risk of men sort of coming there or um, getting involved with a lesbian and leaving her for for, um, a man. And that's, you know, such a dreadful thing. And of course, it happens the same [00:20:00] way. Um, getting involved with a lesbian getting involved with, um, a lesbian Men's chicken might be left for another woman. I mean, you know, when you're saying bisexual erasure, that's what you're talking about there. Well, it's the bisexual erasure. Part of it is also that when you've got in through history or any other space, somebody may start saying, Um, LGBT they never mention the word bisexual And they by the end of the the engagement, they're talking about lesbians and gays. Um, and anyone who is actually bisexual is relabeled [00:20:30] as being gay or traits, depending on who their partner is. You know, like Ellen Cumming, the actor keeps reminding people I'm bisexual people. I've been married to women. I I'm now married to a man. It doesn't change who I am. I mean, you know, and that's a classic one, because even now, every time that you get a journalist sort of interviewing him, they will describe him as a gay actor, and it it it. So it's It's that when um, people do history of homosexual law reform, they talk about [00:21:00] all the brave gay and lesbian people who came out and who are active. And I know from personal experience that a lot of those other people I see in those are actually bisexual people who are openly bisexual. And they said so and it got dropped or they didn't use the word and they didn't describe themselves in a game. If they had a same sex partner, they got labelled as lesbian or gay. If they had a different sex partner, they got labelled as straight. And so it's like taking a whole group of people out of the the the the picture. And so, yeah, [00:21:30] when you're trying to sort of reclaim bisexual history, it is actually about Well, yeah, it's best if people do self identify, because that enables them to say, Hey, this is me. But labelling people when you don't know it's part of that current issue that's cropping up in some of the history works that, um, people who were labelled as girl at birth but who at a certain point in their life dressed in male clothing and took [00:22:00] on a male identity. Some of those histories of those people have been regarded as being butch lesbians, and that is, you know who they were. And now there's a move to sort of say, hang on. Were they possibly trans men and of course, the difficulty is they're dead. We don't know, but it's it's important to sort of say we don't know. And what we do know is that they were labelled one way at birth and they lived another way later on. And you know, either either possibility, Because otherwise [00:22:30] you don't you don't want to sort of erase either option. And that's one of the difficult things with history of sort of saying, Well, who's got the right to sort of say what actually happened? Because every story is authentic. And so my experience may not be the same as the experience of another person, even in the same room, but it doesn't mean either of us are wrong. You were, um, when you're when you're involved in the protest and so on around homosexual law reform, you weren't in involved [00:23:00] in any particular organising group? No, I was, um, a union, um, delegate. So I passed on information to the union members, some of whom were interested and some of whom weren't. But I wasn't an organiser in Auckland because I hadn't been there long enough to know people. I went along to more meetings in Wellington, but they were already a quite tight group and also that that thing of I wasn't joining a lesbian group [00:23:30] because I knew I wasn't welcome. That's why I was asking, Was it, um was it to do with, you know, were people saying, you know, come and be part of this with us? Or were they seeing you as as other? Well, I think with the from memory. And, you know, this is sort of, um quite a few years ago from memory, where there were open activities to hey, whether it's write a letter or get together and do something, Then it was OK to go in and put a little bit of time, But there were quite [00:24:00] a few of the activities, and I've heard Gavin talk about this where they were doing things like post ups in the night. And it was just quite a small group of people who were doing those things. So I went to some some meetings and I also around the same time, um, for a while was, um, volunteering a bit with what started to be the the AIDS Foundation. There was a precursor group, and I went to some meetings. Um, but my partner had started working actually supporting that, so I couldn't. So there were lots of things of Yeah, I'll do a little [00:24:30] bit. I might write a letter. I might do a thing. But I felt that, um, I wasn't I wasn't as far removed as a total neutral observer, but I certainly wasn't an organiser taking a leading role. And I really didn't have the personal confidence to sort of, you know, push through that. So, yeah, I could go to a group meeting. I could go to a protest. I could get, really sort of, you know, and, um, sort of engage with the other people I was working with. Um, And by the time I left the [00:25:00] Department of Health to go and work for the Department of Internal Affairs, then I was openly advocating for things and helped to start up a, um a queer workers, um, rights group, although and and did some support work for others. Although there were a few, um, lesbians who joined it, who said, Oh, we don't actually want bisexual women in it. Although it was me and one other bisexual woman who actually did all the hard yards of liaising with human, um, resources to say, Can we have, um, an EEO. Support group [00:25:30] for, um um, for, you know, queer workers. Um, when when was that? Um, that was about 88 88 89. Um, partly because we'd also had a lot of union activity over the state sector act coming through which, um, you're too young to remember, but I think I'm probably as old as you. But, um, once upon a time, back in the days of public service in New Zealand, all public [00:26:00] servants were employed by the State Services Commission and the State Sector Reform. Um, Bill, which was another national initiative, broke each department into being its own employer, so they could have different rights and responsibilities and contracts. And there was a lot of protest about it because it meant that you lost a whole base of shared information, of standards, of training, of everything. Um, but it happens. These things do. Um but it did mean that there was quite a, um a period where where union members [00:26:30] were all racked up trying to stop it, you know? And it didn't happen. So, um, then there was, um for me personally. As I say, I came to, um, back to Wellington DIA. And when, um, I got sort of sold? No, I wasn't welcome in that particular group because it was gay and lesbian, and I, for a while, joined a lesbian support group because there weren't any others that I knew of. And I said, I'm bisexual and they said, Oh, well, you [00:27:00] know, we don't know what that means, but you can join us. But by the time they'd got sort of, um, you know, when it was three members, it was OK when it was five members that started having questions. By the time it was eight members, they didn't need me anymore. Um, so they said, You know, we we have decided we don't want you anymore. And I happened to mention this to one of the, um, out young lesbians at my workplace who said, Oh, you should talk to Diana because she by and there's a by group. And so I joined the Bisexual Women's Group, which had started, um, the previous year, and I've been a member of that ever since. [00:27:30] And so that was, you know, quite good as having a support base to be doing things, and we did lots of things with that. But, um, I tend to join things, So I also joined the Pink Triangle magazine collective. Um, And at that stage, there was me and, um, eight men, um, writing articles and doing things. And I got accused of dominating these eight men. Um, it wasn't It was just, you know, I talked a lot. Um, and I joined the Victoria club committee because that, um, owned [00:28:00] the restaurant building. That's now the I think the White House or something. And Oriental Parade on the top floor was a social club that sort of people used to turn up for. And so I was on the committee for for that for a And did you go to, um, any of the lesbian clubs around that were in the eighties and nineties? Yeah. I went to one club 44 41 which was in, um, Vivian Street, and sort of. I went there because I'd been invited along and sort of I could see people playing pool, and, uh, somebody said, Oh, you're a bisexual [00:28:30] woman, aren't you? You're not welcome. And, um, I shut the door in my face. Um, I went to some of the, um, Amazon organised dancers. The dudes dancers, dikes out of debt dances at places like, um, the Brooklyn Community Hall. And there was another one in Newtown, and that was hilarious because it was a drag, um, one. And at the time I was flattened with Heather, who was captain of the Amazon's team, which is probably one of the reasons I could get into the space is because, like, Hey, she's Heather flat, mate. [00:29:00] You know, she's allowed in. So there'd be, you know, sometimes I'd go to parties. 30 lesbians in me. Um, So it's probably there, possibly and Heather for one of these, you know, Butch Dyke wearing an evening dress and a feather bowler. It was like, absolute classic, You know, there were there were some great sort of things, and, um but you still got the thing that, like, the Brooklyn dancers, were a little bit notorious in the neighbourhood. So, like me and a sort of a friend sort of walking in the street sort of before after it, young guys in the street yelling at us, you know, you're those [00:29:30] aren't you. And so I wasn't going to debate the definition or sort of point then, um, and at different times, I'd be dating a man or dating a woman and, you know, like sometimes an overlap. Um, but that wasn't the thing. You know, I'm who I am. And therefore, I like to go to space that I feel comfortable, and I don't really feel comfortable in straight space. Um, partly because, you know, men don't always treat. I mean, it's better now, but in those days, you know a woman going to a straight bar by herself, You know, Now, you know, if you're attractive, you [00:30:00] get picked on. If you're not attractive, Um, in their terms, um, you you sort of get, um, cold shouldered and, you know, So, um, queer space is a lot, you know, nicer to be in. Um, it doesn't sound like it's been that nice for you at all, to be honest. Oh, well, I mean, it's it's it's I still sort of get better interested from time to time. Um and I still have a have a have negativity towards lilac because my name is Kate and I book addict, And there is a library [00:30:30] that I was on the committee for two years, and then they sort of said, Oh, well, we're really, really not very comfortable having a bisexual who's with a man on it. You can you can join if you chuck your your your male partner. Um, but not so, um And I know there are other other women who are bisexual and are members, but the thing is, don't ask, don't tell if you're challenging something, then you're not welcome. If you're accepting the status quo and giving that [00:31:00] support to it, then you can get away with it. And, um, for one reason or another, ever since, um, I overcame that shyness, Um and part of that is that I persuaded a boss back. Well, I trained as a teacher, so I'm I'm actually a qualified secondary school teacher and that, you know, pushed me into teaching. And I, um, also got a a boss at a government agency to approve me going on a theatre sports improvisors course, which I said, this is great [00:31:30] communications training. So I went along with it, and of course, what they do on improvisers to train you to jump in. It doesn't matter what the ask is. You jump in. So having broken that inhibition barrier, um, it means it's a lot harder for me not to jump in than the reverse. Um, and so, yeah, so I. I tend to sort of speak out, But it's I'll tell you what's been really, really nice in recent times has been connecting up with the Queer Avengers, so that sort of I'm part, [00:32:00] it's it's gone a bit in recess because we had problems after a conference or during a conference. But there's still a group of young people who identify as queer rather than LGBT. Um and they I mean, you know, even the young lesbian sort of say that they don't support excluding people, and they really and they've got loads of friends who are not into labelling. And so we're a lot more on the same page. And the fact that there's a bigger age group gap between me and then then the sort of lesbians [00:32:30] who were excluding me for things is not the point, you know, it's like we see things the same way, so I sort of although we do sometimes have to negotiate how do we communicate? Because I don't have a smartphone and I don't use Tumblr. And so like, Oh, when I said message me, I meant to use an email and it's like, Oh, what's that? So I mean, it's not even a landline versus mobile phones. It's so that's interesting, but yeah, so So you're you're finding yourself more comfortable in in a in a place that identifies more as queer. [00:33:00] Um, well, yes or no. Uh, thing is, it's not that I'm personally uncomfortable. It's a question of probably my number one top, Um, emotion. On one level is anger. I get angry about things, and I like to use that anger to actually make the world a better place. So I've done a lot of things in trying to, um, like, you [00:33:30] know, the the total unfairness of how transgender people are treated in New Zealand. So when I was working at, um, the Council of Trade Unions to, I was able to contribute to drafting input into the employment guide sheet for trans people and to get that, of course, talking to to friends who are trans. Not that they were experts, but that they had personal lived experience of what helped them, what they found difficult. So being able to actually take that knowledge and use my brain to do something good and [00:34:00] not just be frustrated about seeing something unfair that I couldn't do anything about. So that's one of the things that for me it's like, Oh, there's something there. It's like whether it's a rock in the middle of the road and if I can sort of use a bit of energy to do it and I do sort of gonna put it there. And so it was really good with the marriage equality thing because there had been something going on for a long time. And so I supported it. Not that marriage is brilliant, and not that it's fair, but again equal human rights for for everybody and marriage equality, not gay marriage, you know, because the labelling is actually really [00:34:30] important. And so, um, some of my Trans friends don't have to get forced and remarried with a different, you know, document of identity, Um, because of the way the law was drafted. So that was really good. But it did also take away a bit of energy for those people who've that was the goal of getting that law changed through. Then you know they don't need to do anything there. I mean, and some people, it's just like, Hey, let's go back to the party And for me, it's like, Oh, what's the next big challenge? Do you think that was similar after the homosexual [00:35:00] law reform that people who are really actively involved in that then you know, took a breather or OK, I've I've done that and others can come in now I think for some people, it was because, you know, that was a A get in the hurdle. But because the law had been drafted in two parts and only part one got passed and there was still a tremendous anti discrimination thing, and they'd also been the backlash at the time, it meant there wasn't as much of a loss of momentum because one of the things that happens any time there's a positive [00:35:30] gain for social justice is that some people absolutely hate it. So you actually got more queer bashings after homosexual law reform passed partly because those people who'd come out and were more visible meant that they become more targets for people in their neighbourhoods who didn't like that. So, um, and that, I think, faded away again. But people, some people hadn't even been aware that there might be, you know, a gay person living in their neighbourhood. And, oh, some of the people [00:36:00] who were beaten up probably weren't gay. But again, there was that that suspicion thing, um, that they may not have been fired for it, but it didn't mean that things were totally comfortable And yeah, so that that meant that there was still an underlying things aren't quite right. And we need to do a bit of work. So some people failed away. Other people sort of stepped into the gap so that there was, um And then, of course, the other really big thing that was happening, um, in New Zealand at the time was more people were being diagnosed as being HIV positive [00:36:30] and the whole raft of awareness of what was happening overseas in different areas. And, um, a bit like the whole stonewall thing. I mean, that did people around the world in terms of awareness of, of issues and the other the bathhouses being closed down in the US it There were bathhouses closed down in in New Zealand, too. They may not have been as highly patronised, but they were still Oh, what do we do with this thing? And and, you know, it made people some people put in a lot of energy. There were the, like, the, um [00:37:00] the Catholic nun sister Paula Brett Kelly, who sort of spent years dedicating herself to looking after men who were sick and and dying and, um, I I had friends who were HIV positive, and the medicine in those days wasn't as good as it is now. And these are people who got thinner and progressively sicker and didn't tell their families and sort of died. And And we started having, um, funerals and so that there was a sort of coming together of people to sort [00:37:30] of, you know, to to miss them. Um, and over time, you know, the medicine and the support got better. But they were they were still banging your head against sort of brick walls. In terms of can we get the latest drug into New Zealand? And when I say we I, I put my hand up to volunteer I did a little bit of that. But what most of the gay and bisexual men wanted was somebody who was of their own sort of group and supporting them. They wanted buddies who were their friends sort of there. So, you know, stepping back and and and doing other things. But [00:38:00] yeah, it's it's, um it all sort of mixes in together a little bit. That sort of you're aware of things and you see something that might make a difference. And people who are getting losing out on a job, they may not even have got it because, oh, you're gay. Therefore, you must have HIV. Therefore, we can't have you working in the kitchen or so, like the the issues got mixed up together because that was people's understanding of it. Um [00:38:30] know. And then the rest of the time, you know, like there was there were good dancers. There were good sort of getting together with people, and, um um, personally, I sort of Also, during this time, I bought a house you know, had had things there at some stage relationship broke up, sort of dating people, you know, lots of those. Those ongoing things that sort of just happen on on a personal level. And, um, some of that was good. Most of it was really And there are still, you know, people that I've got to be friends with, But [00:39:00] I don't always find it easy to talk about just social little things like I find probably for me, the scariest people are, um, conventional straight, um, feminine women who can talk about flower arranging or share domestic tips. And I, you know, even though later on I became a mother and I might understand these things, but it still just feels a bit weird. I mean, [00:39:30] II I studied science at at University. I mean, you know, other other causes of anger there, like I did, um, Stage one, physics. And I got, um, bullied out of my stage one tutorial because I was the only female in the class and the tutor didn't like not being able to tell dirty jokes. And when I complained to the head of department, it was like, Oh, he's not very well. You won't be there much longer. We'll give you a pass to the subject anyway. Um, but I mean, that's the the level of sexism. That was sort of back then. And that's the thing that sometimes there [00:40:00] are so many different piles of discrimination that it's hard to untangle. You know? Are you missing out because you're a woman? Are you missing out because you're queer? Are you? Um I mean, like, I was white. So I wasn't missing out because of my my heritage. Um, but I'm aware that, you know, some of the people I knew they might be stereotyped because of that. Like Peter, who was a young Chinese guy. I knew. He said he actually loved languages, and that's what he wanted to do. [00:40:30] But he kept being offered accounting jobs, which he hated, because they thought that he was good at it. And so when EEO laws came through and people were required to sort of think about things a bit more. Well, I did, but not really, because, you know, like they didn't actually have an understanding, because again, there wasn't the sharing about what people's own lives were like and who, who, who they were. It was like, Oh, we're now aware that we're supposed to be diverse. Therefore, we'll, um, appoint one Asian guy to a to an accounting job, you know, And that that was enough to satisfy it rather [00:41:00] than sort of saying, actually, how do we make sure that our processes are good? And, um, when I was working at one government agency, I was doing the the notes for, um appointing people. And the boss said, Oh, look, we don't want to employ that one because the guy, because he's in a wheelchair um, write it up so that he doesn't look as good and write her up, so she looks better. So it's like and that was a direct instruction. So I mean, we're we're still at a point where we've got, um organisations that are getting the rainbow tick. [00:41:30] To be able to say that they, you know, they have diversity policies or they're doing an OK job by their by their rainbow clients or their rainbow staff. Um what? What do you think of that? Well, it's a two sided thing. On the one hand, yeah, it's really good that it's happening because it does create opportunities for some people, and I've got friends in the organisations that are there, and it doesn't. It does also mean that my, for example, a friend of mine who, [00:42:00] Um, I've known for over 30 years and came out to me a couple of weeks ago as Trans and is now transitioning and, um won't be fired for that and actually can get some support at the workplace. And I've been able to connect that person with some other friends who are a bit further along their journey to to give support on on medical advice. But I'm also aware that some of those large Corporates they don't have a fundamental commitment to anything other than profit. [00:42:30] And they're doing this because it's part of the whole pink dollar exercise a bit like when, um, a NZ had their gay T MS. Um, they weren't giving any of their own money to the donated good. They were sort of saying, If you put it here, we'll give part of this extra fee money that we're charging you to those ones It So it wasn't them really having a solid commitment. It's just a pure marketing exercise. Yes, they're doing some good in some very limited areas, [00:43:00] and it's a good thing and you see support, and it's the same as my friends who are, um, extreme left and who oppose capitalism. They oppose property. They oppose marriage as an institution, but they still wanted marriage equality, rights for everybody because nobody should deny anybody what rights are there for one set. So it's It's complicated, but only from the thing of you support something, but you still criticise it. You know, it's it's that thing of, um and sometimes [00:43:30] people feel, Oh, if I'm supporting something that far, I can't be critical as well. And I think that's where social media is wonderful. You can have all of these identities or, um, but no, even even something that's there you can be polite about and say, Look, I think it's really great that large Corporates are now realising that they can actually improve their performance by having a diversity of their staff, because everybody [00:44:00] thinking the same having an echo chamber in your ideas tank doesn't actually create any innovation. It doesn't improve productivity. It doesn't do anything good for the company. So now that you're aware of this, how's about also doing something about, say, physical access into your building? So people who've got physical sort of impairments can actually get there. Have you thought about how to get the most loyal employees working for you? Which again, People who are disabled, you know, they will sort of give far more [00:44:30] than you actually pay them if you enable them to work for you. But you have to make some changes to how that work is done. You know? Is it, um, is there an opportunity for somebody who's deaf or hearing impaired to be working for you? What are the barriers to that person that for, For other sort of physical things, Um, a person who's transitioning, How are how are they, um, going to be received by their their coworkers? And then, of course, you've got government agencies. What's the level of awareness, um, of people's [00:45:00] diversity and differences? Um, and are the processes actually robust to sort of say, Hey, you're not discriminating against them? And some of that that, like things like, um, Human Rights Commission came out Reports on institutional racism, um, Maori or associates did one on AC C processes. If you are in seasonal work, you or have many part time jobs with employers, you are less likely to be able to claim and get AC C for a work injury. [00:45:30] And the people most in those situations are Maori and Pacific. And so it is a form of structural racism that impacts on those people's ability to earn money and support their families and partly for cultural reasons. Maori and Pacific people do have larger families, so you're actually talking about systems that are impacting on lots of Children. So I mean, we've gone off topic a little bit, but you know, like, this is the thing of when you start unpicking. Hey, you're saying [00:46:00] that you want the rainbow tick because you support diversity and you think it's a good thing. Well, what else might you be doing to actually show that you really understand that that's right? And communicating and connecting people with each other is something that's really important. And back in the eighties, we did that by standing alongside each other at meetings on protests, Um, sometimes even just identifying with somebody through less, um, that they'd written, seen them on television. [00:46:30] That was the connection. These days, I'm seeing far more of that connection through social media, sometimes with meetups and face to face meetings as well, but it's it's like in a way, it's a different world that we're able to discuss these issues far more openly in different ways. So people blogging people sort of sharing things. But it's also a little bit of a loss that people aren't going to the same bars to get together to find their people, because they can find them in a space that doesn't have that connection. So you [00:47:00] are getting in a way silo because of that where people may not be mixing as much across those areas. So there's both the goods and the bad as people getting strength from finding their community and being with it, but not necessarily sharing it with other people to break down their, um, prejudices against them. And it's the same a bit between Auckland versus, um Wellington, that in Wellington a lot of the ethnic communities are [00:47:30] too small to have their own separate space, so they actually have to mix. In Auckland. You can have entire suburbs where English is not the first language and people don't have to mix with others of a different background to themselves, which you know is good for their support. But bad for not having connections. So I really sort of, in a way, there were some really good things about building community in the eighties that, um, and I and I still wish, you know, we had women's dances like we we we did, and and those things of getting [00:48:00] together just to, you know, raise hell and, you know, have a have a laugh. You know, even if sometimes you weren't allowed in. Yeah, even if sometimes I wasn't allowed in, But it gave me something to be angry about. And you know, I, I like having something to rant about, too.

IRN: 938
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089681
TITLE: Glenda Gale - homosexual law reform
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VOICES: Glenda Gale
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; Alfred Kinsey; Aotearoa New Zealand; Aro valley; Bisexual Awareness Week; Breathing Space (group); Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Darryl Walker; Gay Line Wellington Trust; Glenda Gale; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Kinsey scale (heterosexual - homosexual rating scale); Lambton Quay; Lesbian Line (Wellington); Lower Hutt; Norman Jones; Nuremberg Rally; Queer History in the Making (2015); Royal New Zealand Police College; Royal Oak Hotel; Salvation Army; Tavern bar (Royal Oak Hotel); Tighe Instone; Wellington; Wellington Teachers' Training College; Word is Out (film); accomodation; activism; advertising; anger; bars; bisexual; cafe; children; church; closed community; closet; coming out; community; drag; employment; equality; face-to-face; family; gay; gay girls; gay liberation movement; homophobia; homosexual; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; hospitality; human rights; identity; lesbian; letters to the editor; library; lobbying; march; marriage; marriage equality; meeting place; newspapers; parties; peer support; pink triangle badge; police; politics; prejudice; pride; protest; queer; radio; religion; rent; reunions; safe space; support; teaching; women
DATE: 24 September 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Glenda talks about the gay liberation movement, homosexual law reform and the support group Breathing Space.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Glenda, you were involved in the activities leading towards homosexual law reform. Um, and you were living in Wellington at the time. Can you tell us how you became to be involved in those activities? I sort of tempted to say, Well, how could you not be involved? But I guess there were people that weren't I. I was fairly out. Well, I was very out, um, and had been out and about in Wellington for quite a long time. Um, I was in my early thirties, [00:00:30] and it seemed to be a no-brainer to me to be involved in this. I mean, some people may have felt that because it was largely about, uh, the legalisation of male homosexuality. You know, what did it have to do with women? And some women did think that, but also particularly once we had the sort of, um, the human rights aspect as well. I mean, you'd be stupid. Somebody would be really stupid not to support trying to ensure that both of those pieces of legislation went through. And of course, you know, um, I had gay [00:01:00] male friends as well, but, um, but I think everybody that I knew, uh, pretty much saw that this this affected us all, right? Were you involved in political things at that time? Anyway, um, I can't remember, particularly at that time, but I had been involved in political things over the years. I mean, I started when I was about probably about 20. I was involved in gay liberation, so that was very important to me. And, um went and did quite a lot of public [00:01:30] speaking with gay liberation groups. Went to speak to the police, went to some church groups, things like that. So I quite liked that kind of aspect. So with anything for me, it's always that, um I like it to be very personal. Um, that's how I operate rather than writing, um, submissions and things which are all very important. I know. But they've never been my thing so personal, as in you would rather talk to someone or discuss it with the with people. Abs? Absolutely. And and I think that I'm always [00:02:00] hopeful that even in some of the worst situations that by making some sort of a personal approach that sometimes that hits home and it's hard to people. I mean, obviously some people do not going to change their attitudes. But I think sometimes if you can put a personal face on whatever it is, it helps, Right? What were some of your successes taking that personal approach in the gay liberation? Well, that had been, as I say, going out to speak to different groups. And I mean, I can remember going out to speak to the police college. We were [00:02:30] a mixed group of men and women, and we went out there and it was really interesting because you got a measure of some of the people and the one of the guys who was in charge. I mean, it was horrendous, he said at the end. Oh, I think gay men. We should put them on an island and shoot them and lesbians. I'd like to watch, and that's what this man said right in front of his young recruits and everything. Having said that, one of the women came up later and sort of told us how brave she thought we were and that she was in the closet, so I always [00:03:00] just felt it didn't matter. You get the horrible stuff and you're going to get the people you'll never change. But maybe you just touch somebody, and I'm I'm always hopeful that it made a difference for her. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, when you were doing those activities, that was part of a gay liberation that was part of Gay Liberation Group. And what sort of other people were involved in that group was a large group. Um, average sort of size it was. I mean, some of the names are still around now. We had an event at the national library [00:03:30] a few weeks ago, and I actually ran into at least one person who was involved in that as well. So, um, it was a mixed group of men and women, I think at that stage, possibly more men than women. Um, most of us were quite young, and I think it was also quite exciting. You know, you got out there and you put your pink triangle badge on and you said, Yeah, I'm queer. And and it was still a little bit shocking to people because we're talking there, I guess. Sort of, uh, yeah, early seventies, and I was at Teachers College, and, [00:04:00] um, it was still raised eyebrows and I like that aspect of it. I think it's good for people to be shocked. It really is. So. And the event you were talking about a few weeks ago was the making history. That's correct. Yeah. Yeah. So? So, being part of that group mixing with with the guys as well was that helpful in terms of leading you into working on the homosexual law? Well, I mean, that was quite a few. There was quite a few years difference. And in between that, um, [00:04:30] I was quite more involved in lesbian groups later on. But II, I I've always felt that link. I mean, in a in the broader sense of the queer community, the first queer people I ever knew were drag queens. So for me, there's always these these links, you know, we we we do fit. Um, even if we've got different agendas sometimes. So, um, for me, um, you know, and having known some of the gay men, of course, it felt like, um, there is a connection here, and I want to support them. Um, how did [00:05:00] you meet the drag queens? Um, going to Carmen's coffee lounge and, uh, my girlfriend at the time and I went there. We've been to we've read about it or we've been told about it and we sort of went and were really scared. And they were very kind and we got toasted sandwiches. And then, uh, I don't know whether it was the first night. I think it was the first night these two women came up to us and said, Oh, are you lesbians? Or they probably said gay girls or something And we said yes. And they they were quite drunk. And they said, We'll come back next week and we'll take you to the gay [00:05:30] bar because we didn't know where the gay bar was. We were also under age now, Um when we thought, Oh, no, they'll never come back because they're actually quite drunk. Next week they were came back and they took us. Thank you. Tiggy was one. And, um so that was the kind of entree into very much being a world, you know, at the pub at the Royal Oak, it was very mixed. Men and women, uh, there and different bars for for different kinds of people, I guess, Um and we all drank [00:06:00] in the tab and bar mainly. And, um, so that was my entree into a sort of the the Queer Society of Wellington in particular, or or an entree. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I say thank you. It was, you know, because in those days it was very, very difficult to find out. Where did people go? You know, where did people go? And, um, we found out that, you know, you went to the pub, Um, usually on a Friday night. And then by the time it was nearly closing time, somebody would say, Oh, a party at my place [00:06:30] or somebody else's place where you didn't even know. And then you'd all tra off over there after the the pub, right? And what what memories do you have of, say, late seventies early eighties, perhaps, Of, um, of, um, people not being so accepting of you being a lesbian? Um, in the sort of late seventies early eighties, I lived in the row Valley and I was totally immersed in, um in lesbian culture. And by that stage, I would say and so I [00:07:00] actually other than having to go to work. I didn't mix in straight society almost at all, So it was quite an insular. And, um, I surrounded myself with people who were the same as me and politically active as well. Yes, I guess so. Not as much as perhaps some and again, Um, one of the things I did and I can't remember the exact date, but I had a little coming out group going at one stage. It was the first iteration [00:07:30] of a group that took off again later on called breathing space. Um, because I always felt very, very strongly that although I appreciated, we've got this little closed, well big, close community that we live in and we're safe and we enjoy each other's company and all That was marvellous things. But I always felt that it was often made very difficult for women to come out, and we made it hard. And I never could understand. You know, even if it was hard for us, why did it have to be hard for the next ones [00:08:00] that came along? What were we doing to make it hard? Um, I just think there were no bridges for people who particularly hadn't decided that was the hardest thing or didn't know there was no safe place for women to explore their sexuality in the sense of talking. I've got these feelings. Uh, what does this mean? Um, so there was a there was a lesbian line, and but I'm thinking that this group may have started just prior to that when there was a kind of a more [00:08:30] of a gay line and people would ring. And, um, you know, invite people to come to a meeting. And also, there were women around who you know, been around for a while, but still had questions. So I can remember a number of meetings where they came to my house and we discussed things. We talked about things, and it was that thing to try and say, Well, this in this space, you don't have to say I am anything you can come. You can talk about what it is that's worrying you or what What [00:09:00] you want to know, and nobody's gonna jump on you and say, That's a stupid question, or how dare you ask that question? That was the kind of environment that I tried to create, and there was a wonderful film that came out at that time. It was called word is out. It was an American film where they introduced, uh, and interviewed a whole lot of lesbian and gay men. And it was for me. It was really revealing film. Uh, and, um, we managed to get a copy of that somehow, and we showed that, uh uh, on on [00:09:30] a video. I think, um, and we had a discussion about it afterwards. So that sort of thing, that, um just to try and, uh, make a space for women to talk about how they were feeling, how were you advertising the group? That really was more word of mouth at that stage later on. And it would have been, um I've lost track of the years a little bit, but in the nineties, uh, the, uh, Darryl Walker and I resurrected that group again. And, um, that was, uh, advertised Lesbian [00:10:00] line provided us with some of the people that came to that, and some people reached us word of mouth as well weren't able to advertise in the newspaper. Um, I'm trying to remember. That's terrible, isn't it? I think mostly it came through lesbian line. Yeah, I think that's mainly where, because it was in my home, so I don't think I in that iteration I didn't advertise my home phone number in the earlier one. In fact, um, sometimes the phone number was put out on posters. So you got all these terrible phone calls. Not all of them welcomed. [00:10:30] That's right. But I was pretty young and tough then. I didn't really care. So if people rang up, would you sort of meet with them first and then yes, especially in the second iteration of the group. Um, that was very much the case that people would ring and would offer to meet up. And then I would go. I describe how I might look. Uh, the The funniest thing was there was one person, and we just held with laughter about this later and said, I'll meet you in a cafe or outside a cafe. You'll recognise me because [00:11:00] I'll have my 10 speed with me. And apparently this poor person spent a very long time wondering what this thing might be. Of course it was a bike. I mean, I thought it was a bike, but exactly this person had a rather interesting sense of humour, but that's what she told me afterwards, a 10 speed might be, but so often it was this, you know, meeting in a cafe somewhere talking. And, uh, and And if, you [00:11:30] know, the person felt that this was a sort of group for them, then they'd come along. I can remember one night, though, I got a phone, a call from someone saying that they were going to come. And then the person rang me and said, I'm driving round and round the block. I'm too scared to come. And it was like being in the control tower at the airport. Now, just come around the corner once more. Now, you should see some parks there. Just just park your car. Look, it's all right. We We are all here. Um, and and this person slowly came and knocked on the door. Ah. So [00:12:00] you were the only one really offering that at that stage? Yes. So two of us, that group, um and, um, I wanted it so that, you know, what I discovered was that many women coming to the group had come from marriages, and I had no experience at that. So I really felt that I needed someone who did the other thing that we used to do was that in every second meeting we would invite a speaker to come along. So, for example, if I had someone in the group that was perhaps having, uh, religious issues, then we would try to get a speaker [00:12:30] who had had a religious background or if they'd had Children, Whatever. We tried to match it up with positive stories of people, how they had faced their issues. Uh, and and you know how their lives were now, that sort of thing. And that was really because, I mean, you know, as one person or two people running the group, we can't represent every lesbian. That's not a possibility. But it was really helpful to women to hear that there were people that had had similar, um, issues or just backgrounds to them, and that it was still [00:13:00] possible to come through that and come out and all the way through was nobody was ever asked. Are you a lesbian? You have to identify. The only thing we said was that, um, if at some point you realised that that was not your identity, then obviously you wouldn't want to stay in the group, and that was but that was up to the person to self select. OK, did did you, um, run that during the, um, the years sort of around homosexual? Not really. No, that probably It happened previously, and it happened post [00:13:30] Post that. Yeah. Why was that? Um I think, uh, the first time, it just kind of, you know, we had AAA group of people that seem to want to come. And then that kind of disappeared. And then for ages afterwards, um, there wasn't such a group. And I think somebody from Lesbian Line may have contacted me and said, Look, actually, we've got a need. You know, that people are, uh, women are contacting us, and we've actually got nowhere to send them. And so that was really to think. Oh, well, actually, if there's a need and we continued [00:14:00] the group for about six years in the second iteration, and until it just seemed that there was not a need at that point that we stopped getting people being referred or wanting to come. I think things sort of relaxed more. And perhaps I don't know why they stopped, but, um, So we decided at that stage to stop the group. I understood some other people took the group on after that, uh, started new sort of. Um, but I don't know how long those went. Right, So in the, um and this lead up. 19 [00:14:30] say 98 4 98 5. Um, how how were you drawn into the activities? Like, um, like of the homosexual? Well, I guess you'd hear about them. You, you, you You'd hear what was happening, What was on? Um And I think, um, we were really quite protest minded, so it was good to get out there. I mean, I think many of us were just really angry. You know how and when you heard people. I think the thing that I found really quite tormenting [00:15:00] was when you heard some of these absolutely horrendous things that were said about us things like, you know, these people should go back to the gutter where they belong, or these people should be put on an island and shot. I mean, there was one minister, his name just escapes me. At the moment, he certainly was saying that gay people should be killed. Now, these are extreme views, but when you hear them. I mean, it either probably makes some people run away. But for others, it makes makes us angry. You have You were still in touch with your family. Your your [00:15:30] family? Yes, Yes, yes, yes. What was their reaction to it? Um, I. I have my mother. It was really just my mom and I. I don't think she had a particular interest in it, particularly. And I don't think I discussed it much with her. But one thing I did do, um when it became very apparent, for example, that there was a petition to try and stop the bill going through. And I understood that, you know, these petitions were being presented at churches and all sorts of things I wanted to see again. What could I do on a really [00:16:00] personal level? And so I wrote a letter, and I'm sorry. I meant to actually try and drag it out, but I haven't got it here. But I wrote a letter very personal letter, and it was something around. You know, when you hear about law reform when you are asked to sign a petition to stop this happening, um, you need to know that you know at least one queer person, and that's me. So when you sign, uh, this petition, you are signing my human rights away because this petition, if [00:16:30] if you sign it and, um and this whole reform process is stopped, it will mean that people will be able to, um, throw me out of my accommodation. There's a potential for me to be thrown out of my job. And you must always remember that. You know, one person, you probably know more, but, you know, at least one and that is me. So I wrote this letter and I sent it to everybody I could think of, sort of straight people I could think of. Uh, I sent it to the staff of I had been a teacher. [00:17:00] So a couple of the schools that I taught at who knew me people knew me well and sent them out like that. How many do you think you sent out? I don't know. Probably 20 or maybe something like that. It wasn't a huge amount, but I sent them out and I just decided that that was one thing, because you know, when people can put a face to someone. Uh, I think it does tend to make a difference. Did you hear back from anyone? Um, no, I don't think I did. Really? III. I did hear years later [00:17:30] that at one of the schools where I sent it, they were a bit shocked. And and it was I couldn't have been shocked that I was a lesbian because they all knew that. But they were a bit I don't think people, um, sort of in the mainstream or used to people actually saying things like that. And I mean, I still think then, uh, as possibly now, hopefully less Now, you know, there's one thing about knowing about someone being queer and being told and some people don't like that, you know, they think you should just be quiet and, you know, you can be what you like, but just keep it [00:18:00] to yourself. And I think in those days it was probably a lot more of that. So this was probably quite confronting for people. I think there were probably some people who, um, uh also thought it was great. I can remember, and I'm just trying. I and I really can't think of the year, But it was before law reform. I can remember wearing. I think it was a pink triangle, and I had it on my jacket. And, um, I work at the school where I was teaching. It must have been about in 1979 [00:18:30] something like that. So it was prelaw reform. But I think there must have been something going on was why I wore it. And I remember the principal asked me what it was, and I told him, and he said, Oh, you give me one of those. I'll wear that. And I can't remember whether I did in fact, give him one. But he said he would wear it, and and he was not a gay man. And so you got people sometimes. And he was somebody that it was. I was really surprised, really surprised. But, you know, you just sometimes you just don't know where your support comes from. [00:19:00] Yeah, exactly. Um, so with the, um, with you being involved in the the activities in Wellington Wellington. Uh, were you in any particular formal groups? Um, look, honestly, I can't remember, but probably not. I don't know that many of them were that formal. I think that we came together with the need arose. I mean, I think there were cause of people. There were calls of people who organise things. And I not wasn't usually one of those I I have someone that's slightly a [00:19:30] to meetings, so I'm more likely. I mean, unless it's something you know where you're having a discussion, a 1 to 1 discussion or things like that. But but but planning meetings and stuff like that, I have an aversion to them. I always have, and I still do. And so I'd be more likely to go along when something had been organised. So you weren't actively part of, say, the gay Task Force? Uh, no. No, I don't believe so. No, no. So, um, who were you connecting up with to to, um, get involved? [00:20:00] Largely it would be lesbian activities where they you know, people from the other women in the community would have said, Oh, something's on. And, you know, there were newsletters and things, so I would have found them out with that and and gone along, right? Can you remember any particular events that you went to? Um, there was a big March, and I, in fact, spoke at the end of that. It was a march that went right through the went right through the city and ended up at Pigeon Park. And there were thousands of people there, and I did speak again. I can't remember exactly what I said, [00:20:30] but it But it would be definitely around the this whole thing of freedom of, um, you know, having the right to be who we are and not being, you know, uh, I mean, I think the whole thing, that sometimes people don't understand or don't remember that sure, the legalisation of male homosexuality was very important. And But there was also this human rights aspect because leading up to those times, people were afraid, Uh, and I can remember being really afraid like when you went to get [00:21:00] a flat, you know? Did you look too queer? What would they say? And there were possibilities at times like that where I'm sure people didn't get accommodation because they they looked wrong. Uh, and there was a potential also to lose jobs, so I mean, there was a real fear about this, So this was an opportunity to think Well, we will be included in the human rights legislation. This has got to be positive. And so I think that that that was one of one of the driving forces as well. [00:21:30] Did you ever experience yourself being that threat of leaving of losing a job or No, but I was always really aware of being careful. So I I was a teacher, Um, in the early seventies or mid seventies, Really, Uh, a primary school teacher. And you know, when you're a teacher, little kids, when you've got little kids are like to come and drape themselves all over and sit on your knee. Quite natural. Lovely. But I was always really, really aware that what happens [00:22:00] if somebody comes in the room and sees this? What will they think? And and and will I, you know, be in trouble? Uh, and, um, and another incident in the school where I had this pink triangle with the headmaster, um, asked to wear it, and there was a woman who was, um, sort of the manager of the junior teachers. And her thing was, she complaints to other people that I had bought pink triangles to work and tried to force them on people, which was not the case at all. [00:22:30] So you know, you you you had these kind of experiences. So for whatever reason, there were certainly people who were were hostile. Um, but I didn't. I had a really positive experience. I'm just trying to think what year it was. And it might have been around homosexual law reform time. I'm I'm not absolutely sure, but, um, I was in a flat, and, uh, the tenants upstairs were harassing me. And the owner of the [00:23:00] flat was extremely supportive and knew that I was a lesbian. And, um although she didn't say that to the other tenants, she just told the other tenants they had to better behave otherwise. You know, they might be the ones that got thrown out and and And I can remember at that time being Oh, wow. So obviously, I did not have an expectation that a landlord would be particularly supportive of me as a person if they knew I was a lesbian. But she did know, right? But you weren't. Or particularly [00:23:30] closet. No, no, no, I wasn't. I totally wasn't. But But it was always that thing. If you went to go, you know, getting a new flat. And you were going for an interview. It was always a worry. Gosh, what will they think? Will I look too queer? Um or, um perhaps it's, you know, going for a job. I remember in the job that I have now, which I've had for nearly 30 years or various versions of it, Uh, really, really quite harrowing thinking when I went to go to the interview. God, Well, I think [00:24:00] I'm too little too queer because I wasn't going to change it. I looked how I looked, but I was really, really concerned that that might have a negative effect on me. Clearly, it didn't. How are you looking in those things? Um, I Look, it's a bit hard to remember that. So it's, you know, it's nearly 30 years ago, but, you know, probably I I'm not I don't know, short hair shirt, trousers, you know, You know, not when I look at it. I think, Oh, that's not that different. But when I compared with what the other staff members look [00:24:30] like then, um, then you see, Gosh, there was a difference. But the the work that I went into and the section that I went into, I It was very interesting that we were a wide variety of people. And I almost think that it may have been, um, a positive attribute. Not that I would be the token lesbian, but that I would I would join a team of people who would be serving a wide variety of the public. And I think we had a very enlightened manager [00:25:00] who saw that. That was a That was advantageous. We had people of different races. We have people of different ages. Uh, and I think that he saw that that was a positive thing. What, were you working? Yeah. So I think that that was very enlightened. Um, and I I'd bet that you weren't the only lesbian. No, probably not. No, probably not. I couldn't possibly say, but no, I think it's I think it's a sector. I mean, I think it's a sector, [00:25:30] um, that we're quite lucky to work. And I think that in general, the library sector is, um, is has been a fairly good refuge for queer people. Yeah. Yeah. So can you recall other events in the march around homosexual I think the one that really stands out was I was went down Lampton one lunch time and there was a couple of people standing on Lampton Quay with the petition, so and they were getting signatures. So [00:26:00] I waited very patiently in line and got up to it. And then it took the the the clipboard to sign it and then just ripped as many off as I could, tore them into pieces and stuffed them down my trousers. Now the two people, it was a man and a woman who had the petition. They got me and they jammed my arms up behind my back and nearly broke my arms. And I had fingernail marks across my arms for days afterwards. They were really rough. And, um and I them, you know, if they tried to retrieve, uh, the the torn up, um, [00:26:30] I would have them for assault. I probably could have had them for assault anyway, But they called the police, and the police said I needed to give the petition back, so I took it out and ripped it up some more and gave it back to them. It was always very memorable. I love that periodically I used to see at least one of the two people that had the petition on the bus, and we just a little bit of banter, bats and forwards, but, um, yeah, I mean, thought, Well, you know, I'm gonna fight back. I'm not going to just let them collect these signatures. Good on you. I mean, I suppose some [00:27:00] people would think that Well, that's not very democratic. If people want to sign, they should be able to sign. But it was kind of it was necessary to make a really loud protest about it. And, yeah, and and the people around, I guess nobody did anything. They just sort of were looking as my memory serves me. But it was very interesting how quickly these two people resorted to what I would have to call force and and violence against me. So that was kind of interesting. It wasn't very charitable. It certainly wasn't turning the other cheek. I'll [00:27:30] tell you that. And I, I think the other things, as as I said earlier, was during this time there was lots and lots of stuff in the paper. There were lots of letters to the editor there was also. I mean, I tortured myself. There were lots of articles and, uh, religious magazines and and you read some of those. And it was just absolutely what some things that were said were just I mean, shocking, horrible things about us, which were not true, um, and [00:28:00] and just sort of. And And I always thought, you know, if you've got people who are in the closet, they're reading this stuff, they might be very tempted to believe it. And I think that was extremely sad. So were you torturing yourself in terms of seeking out some of those magazines I wanted to know. And I was in an environment where we actually got those magazines. So I could I saw them and read them, and I made copies of lots of the articles, and just some of them were just appalling. You didn't hide them away? No, no, no. And the library that I was in at that particular [00:28:30] time, um, they were used by journalists. So, no, I didn't hide them away and and then and they were just mad. I mean, but you knew that, um, for the market that they were produced for that those people believed what was written, you know, and I and I suppose the thing I found really interesting at that time was again, um, the law reform it seemed to be that not even that being the major thing, but the human rights thing really seemed [00:29:00] to really, really upset some of these people. You know, that, Um the thought that I suppose it was the thought that they could be, you know, would no longer be able to say no to a queer tenant or a queer queer employee. I think some of those people were really worried about that. And so they really pushed that. And then when the petition was presented to Parliament, it was the most horrendous thing to see. You know, they're all up on parliamentary steps with all these boxes. They had sashes [00:29:30] around them and they sort of had my memory. They had their hands in the air, I think, and it looked very much like a Nuremberg rally. In fact, I think they shot themselves very much in the foot by doing that. Because when I think people saw those pictures in the paper, they were shocked. Were you there? uh, yes. Or were what they did was that was really interesting. The police had sort of divided up the grounds of Parliament and put sort of fences around, so they kept the two sides apart, But it was really shocking to see, but on the other hand, it, um I think [00:30:00] they shot themselves in the foot. And I think the other thing around that whole time is that I personally also was really shocked at the stance and the role that the Salvation Army played. Um, I, I when I'm in my sort of, um nice aside, I think, Oh, well, they got used by the religious right. But I know that that's not true, that they really were kind of. They put a respectable face, some of the more right wing religious groups. I think mainstream New [00:30:30] Zealand wouldn't have listened to them. But the fact that the Salvation Army was saying that this was wicked this was bad. This was wrong. I am sure that there was more support, got even though they didn't win, ultimately, but because people respected the and that was I had actually worked for the Salvation Army. Uh, I wasn't a member of the church. But I worked in their hotels for a number of years, and, um, I was really saddened by that stance that they took. Uh, perhaps I shouldn't have been surprised, [00:31:00] but, um, it was not very nice. And for a number of years, uh, right up to probably about five years ago, on the day that they collect on the streets, I normally tell the collectors, and I'm very clear to say this is not directed at you personally, but I want to tell you why I'm not going to give you any money. What do you say to them to say that, you know, during the homosexual law reform, the Salvation Army played a major role? Um, in trying to, uh, you know, deny us human rights and, um, occasionally, I've had people sort of shrug. And other times I've had people [00:31:30] say, Yeah, we know, and we never We didn't agree with that. It was awful. So, you know, some of the the mad articles that you read from sort of more sort of right wing sort of more on the edge groups. Um, it wasn't just them. It was, you know, major groups like the Salvation Army. Like the Catholics? Yeah. Did I? And who were the groups that you saw coming in and actually being allies with us? Um, who did I see? I. I don't know that [00:32:00] I saw groups. I mean, politically, I guess there were political groups. Um, but I think a lot of, uh, perhaps individual people emerge. And I think probably I know that there were people who came out in that time from the Salvation Army, for example, when they saw and heard and realised, Oh, they're talking about me. Some of those people had, but some of them actually came out. So, um, and I think there were probably, uh, sort of leftist groups that will probably be really supportive, but it's interesting, really. [00:32:30] It's hard to know because I think that, um, the feelings about homosexuality run very deep in some people. So I'm quite sure there would have been some people who you would consider to be liberal who weren't and some people who probably were quite conservative, who were supportive. It was never always quite what you expected. That was my memory of it. On the night that the third reading went through. So the bill went through. Where were you? I can't remember. [00:33:00] I'm sorry to say I have no idea now, but obviously somewhere where I was listening or watching Yeah, absolutely. But I don't. I Honestly I can't tell you where I was. I've spoken to two other people who say that they they were listening to it on the radio. At home. Yeah, I probably was as well, but I, I couldn't swear to that. Do you remember any celebrations later? No, I'm sorry. It's too long ago. There must have been there. Totally must have been. Absolutely. But I don't actually have any memory of that [00:33:30] for you. Do you? Do you, um, see that after it, you relaxed around things or in terms of the discrimination, um, I. I think what it does with things like that is it just adds to your pride. And even though I mean, um, you know, there's been discussions over the years that what what the Queer World was like when we were sort of under the radar and there was certainly bad [00:34:00] things about that, no doubt about that. But there was also really good things about that. It was kind of an in in circle or circles, you know? So there was secrets that nobody else knew about, and there was something quite appealing about that. And I think that by the mid eighties, even prior to law reform, but certainly after it, I think as we come, it came out more. Some of that disappeared. Well, quite a lot of that disappeared. Um, and I think I still think there's something lost with that. But I wouldn't [00:34:30] say we we shouldn't have. I mean, we needed to move on. We needed to come out more. And I think that after that, um, I think the world just moved on. I think by 85 you know, I think there was a lot. There was a lot more out. I mean, I'd come out in about 1970 uh, as a teenager, and particularly by about 72 especially so I'd been there prior to that, and that had been far more [00:35:00] sort of claustrophobic. Um, you know, we we lived very much under the radar life in general. Even if you were quite out, there were still a lot of things that you didn't do or um rules that you followed unwritten rules, but certainly by the mid eighties, that was really, really changing. Do you see that? It was an inevitable thing. In hindsight, it's easy to think. Yes, it was. But I still think we were still, you know, it was still something you had to fight for. I mean, even now [00:35:30] with the whole gay marriage thing, it's not necessarily, I mean, I'm not commenting on it, whether it's a good thing or a bad thing or whether it's a thing I want to do or whatever. But just that. I guess if people had said that a few years ago, probably most of us would have said, Oh, no, not yet. It won't happen yet and so sometimes things creep up and they happen. But I mean, obviously during the law reform, I mean, a lot of hard work had gone in preparing the ground for that, but it it also relies on those people that, um, make the political decisions to have the will to change [00:36:00] it. I mean, it was only obviously that there was enough, yes, vote that it went through, so, you know, a lot of work had been done. Preparation work had been done. You know, people have been lobbied, but not just prior to that, but for quite a few years, you know, and and and But, you see, I always feel you never know where those things are going to go, Because the way people vote say in the in the Parliament isn't necessarily what they think they might be totally not homophobic, but for their political career or for their party lines. [00:36:30] They can always take a different view. And you never quite know. After the bill went through, did you stay involved in gay politics in in any way? That, um not? Not really. No, um, as I say, I'm not a meeting person. Um, so then again, it was later, a few years later that we started the breathing space group again and again. It's that personal thing for me of wanting to make a difference in a very personal way, uh, on the ground sort of way. So that was probably the next thing I was involved [00:37:00] in. Do you think the, um that that the next stage when you brought the breathing space, um, back again that the changes in the legislation had that in itself, it helped some of those women come out. It's really hard to know, I mean, because the group went on for about six years and then kind of then we didn't get so many people. It's tempting to think that that would been all part of, uh, creating [00:37:30] a fabric of life where such a support group wasn't really needed. But I'm not sure about that. I mean, now we still hear I still hear stories of people that have struggled. But it was interesting because, um, certainly, um, post law reform in my place of work. I regularly had people coming to me, wanting to talk about coming out or somebody they knew. That was, um, you know, wanted [00:38:00] to come out or even somebody who talked about the fact that their wife had come out to me. So I mean, you know, But maybe law reform meant that they did feel confident to talk to me. Um, but certainly these were people who, you know, wanted to know how to change their lives often, and they still needed to make some sort of contact to do that. And because I was clearly visually obvious and was quite open about my sexuality. [00:38:30] Um, that that certainly was happening. Post law reform as well with your involvement, um, ever discussed at work. Um, I can remember when I first started in in In the Organisation where I am now. And it was one of the first few days, and I was sitting at my desk working and there was some people from another department, but we all sat on the same floor and they a group of them women were sitting near me having a cup of tea at a desk [00:39:00] and chatting, and I they were talking about their husbands and things, and one of them said, 00, my parents hated my husband when I first brought him home and someone Oh, yes, yes, yes. And so I thought OK. And I just stuck my head around my desk and said, You ought to try bringing a woman home and see what happens then. And they just laughed. And that and it was just a way to come out basically. So, um, again, those that that personal thing of saying something, making yourself a bit vulnerable, but also making it positive and being out there. Really? [00:39:30] Yeah, that's, um, kind of interesting. You're talking about that with the non judgmental approach. The approach, I guess you've taken, um, because, um, this week happens to be by visibility week, right? And I'm just wondering, back in the day, but being bisexual or or being lesbian, do you remember anything? Totally. I mean, uh, the view. And I mean, you know, I'm part of that, too. Was [00:40:00] that a person said they were bisexual. It was because they just didn't have the courage to come out or hadn't made their minds up. I mean, I think we had a limited view of sexuality and gender. As you know, I mean, obviously, you know, um, I always remember it. It's not quite related, but it sort of is that, um when I was first came out, I came out with a partner. We can we we were at school together, and there was somebody a lesbian woman doing a study. She was at university, and she was looking at the Kinsey scale. [00:40:30] And, uh, of course you know, one end is straight. One is is gay. And then the Kinsey scale does put grey in the middle, which was quite a revelation. And I remember I was at one end totally at the Queer End, and my partner was very, very close to the straight end. And we decided that probably this was not going to fly for long, which was the case. But in the in the breathing space, um, groups the issues of being Or were [00:41:00] they, um, in in? In the second iteration of that group, there was at that time a a bisexual women's group in Wellington. And we did have the policy that if a woman in our group said I am bisexual, we referred her to that other group and we did. That was because once that was out in the open, I mean that woman's, um I suppose what she may have wanted to talk about was something very different to what [00:41:30] we saw we wanted to talk about and a group that was for undecided. But it was sort of a coming out group if you like. So we made the decision, and I I think I don't know that it ever happened. Maybe it happened once, um and and we just made that clear to say that. You know if at some point you decide that you're not queer at all, you're straight. Well, we'd expect that you wouldn't want to come to the group. And why would you But that if you, um, have an a bisexual identity, we can then refer [00:42:00] you on to a bisexual women's group, which we thought was more appropriate. Whereas our group was quite fine. If people hadn't made up their mind, they didn't know and wanted to explore that. That was what that was for. Yeah, next year. Um, 2016 is the 30th anniversary of homosexual law reform. Have you got any ideas for how you'd like to see it marked or I don't know that That's interesting, isn't it? Um, [00:42:30] I certainly think some really nice sort of cultural type events would be nice. Um, I mean, there's probably things that can't happen, but it would be wonderful if somebody produced a film or a play, something to commemorate something that was a major thing in New Zealand. I mean, a major thing in the world, actually, when you think about it, you know, because we've been recognised internationally when we've been followed internationally around it absolutely so I. I think that those sorts of things [00:43:00] are important. I mean, maybe some reunion type things would be fun. You know, people who were there, Um I mean, talking about it, you know what I mean? You're obviously doing interviews with people, but there's probably more people who might want to remember those times or not. I mean, what I'm I've been hearing from people is that there's quite a, um, a demand for a sort of intergenerational discussion around things. I think that could be really useful. And it doesn't just from the point of view of saying, Oh, you know, we're we're [00:43:30] older and wiser, Um, and you know, we know all about it, but I think it could be really interesting because I think there will be young, queer people who don't know about it. Um, and and it's that thing again. It's not to say Oh, look, look what we did for you, But actually it is useful for people to know that it isn't always the way it is now. I mean, there there are people who don't know that it was illegal for men, you know, there would be people who wouldn't expect that you might get thrown out of your job. Or, you know, you'd have to pretend [00:44:00] not to be queer, Um, for various reasons in society, although there's probably still some young people who know very well what that's like. Um, so I think that those things could be useful. And I think the exchange not just us telling them, but the exchange. How are they? How how did they find their world? Because I think it's different to ours Really different, Yeah, so I think there would be a great deal to be gained from that.

IRN: 932
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/auckland_zinefest_2015_unsettled_diasporas.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004386
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089680
TITLE: Unsettled Diasporas - Auckland Zinefest
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Meng Zhu Fu; Wai Ho
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2000s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asian; Auckland; Auckland City Library; Auckland Zinefest (2015); Chandra Mohanty; China; Chinese; English language; Foreshore and Seabed Act (2004); Gayatri Spivak; India; Judith Butler; Malaysia; Mellow Yellow (zine); Meng Zhu Fu; Māori; Neoliberalism; Pakeha; Pitt Street Methodist Church; Reclaim the Night; Shakti New Zealand; Singapore; South Asian feminisms; Tamaki Housing Group; Tino Rangatiratanga; Tiriti o Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi; UN World Conference on Women (Nairobi, 1985); Wai Ho; academia; academics; accent privilege; accents; activism; alienation; ancestors; biculturalism; blogs; classism; colonisation; culture; family; feminism; gender identity; housing; housing crisis; identity; indigenous peoples; injustice; internet; intersectionality; language; marginalisation; microaggression; microresistance; migrants; naming; oppression; other; othering; parents; people of colour; poll tax; power; privilege; privilege rating scale; race; racism; self determination; sexual orientation; shame; social justice; tangata whenua; transphobia; whitewash; women; xenophobia; youth; zines
DATE: 29 August 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Pitt Street Methodist Church, 78 Pitt Street, Auckland
CONTEXT: Audio from Unsettled Diasporas - a panel discussion on Asian feminism from contributors to Mellow Yellow, a local Asian feminist zine. The panel was part of Auckland Zinefest 2015. A special thank you to the organisers and participants for allowing us to record.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello, everyone. Welcome to unsettled diasporas. Um, so in case you didn't know this panel discussion is around, um, carving out spaces for feminism when you are marginalised. And obviously our particular genre is asian. Um, yeah. So, first off, why is going to open our panel with a bit of context around a zine Malo Yellow Cool. Um, hi, everyone. Thanks for coming. Um, yeah. I started in mellow yellow because I was feeling, I guess, [00:00:30] a kind of disconnect with my ethnic background, I think particularly in an ancestral sense. Um, an awareness of that kind of disconnect came from engaging in decolonization and learning about how to be an alliance and in support of around the foreshore and seabed confiscation in 2004. Um, and around then there's lots of conversations around, or Waitangi and a lot around bicultural, which was a conversation seen to be between Maori and [00:01:00] and I wondered where I fit in as a Chinese diaspora person. Um, whose parents grew up in Malaysia. So I wondered where I fitted in, um, working with Maori and within Maori. It became clear to me that people operating as individuals um yeah, weren't kind of weren't as trusted or were trusted less, in a sense, um, because it seemed to be more about, um, you know who you are was [00:01:30] around who your people are and who speaks for you and who you speak for, um, collectively. So it seemed in that world that the strength and the responsibilities and the complicities and solidarity were more of a collective thing rather than an individual thing. Um and so I think most people who are part of some kind of marginality, uh, kind of know this in some sense Where the whole, you know, with the same brush? Um, [00:02:00] yeah. Speaks to that. And so some of you will be familiar when you have your parents or your grandparents say stuff like, Oh, you know, if you do this, you'll bring shame on the family name. You know, you'll bring shame on the village and you'll bring shame upon our people. Um, you know, So, yeah, so I think that's, um, kind of the in some ways, the stink side of things. Um, you know, as in Why? Why? Just because if I smoke cigarettes or, um, [00:02:30] drink or am gay or trans or I have mental health issues or I'm unemployed. Why should that, uh, reflect badly on on my family or on my ethnicity? Um, so, yeah, I think at the same time the upside of this, if you can call it an upside, uh is that there's a slightly intangible cohesion in a lot of ways, for better or for worse, that moves us and shapes us collectively as a people's whatever, whatever that actually means, you know? So I started [00:03:00] yellow because I wanted to find other people like me, uh, other Asian people that wanted to unsettle our diaspora, settling on our terms and our ways, um, and the terms of our ancestors, rather than on, I guess, kind of like angsty terms. And for me, this meant searching for my ancestors and their tales and journeys to understand what my obligations are or our obligations are, um, based on. Also, I guess, being my ancestors, [00:03:30] if that makes any sense, um, kind of like what? What they would have wanted. Uh, given the injustices of these lands, we create our homes on, uh, and the benefits and complicities that we participate in regarding the theft and colonisation of Maori land, And I suppose I see it as work that we have to do rather than work that I have to do. So I believe these obligations are handed down to us ancestry. So in the first edition of Mala Yellow, there are tales about various people's [00:04:00] ancestors Um, some here who were in the original group of young, uh, young people when we were doing, like, education and Decco learnings and actions, um, and anti-racism work. And the other aspect of identity is us. And we, rather than just me, is I guess, I don't know. Yeah, what? We could call broadly Asian feminism, if that is at all, even a useful grouping. Um, I guess for me, that's about exploring and confronting the power [00:04:30] laden structures. Um, of other kind of older inherited, um yeah, obligations. Intentions, Um, and Asian, you know, as we know, is a kind of very broad coverall term that doesn't speak particularly well or meaningfully to colonisation and state and empire within the greater Asian region. Um, particularly, I guess, with me in regards to China being a very long standing empire and nation that it is, and the violence that happens in, [00:05:00] uh, internally as well as externally. Um, that comes with Empire and Nation states. So, yeah, I guess it's how do we navigate that as diaspora peoples living in settler states. Um, and also, what are some of the methods? What are some of our methods and resistances and processes when we address inequities and oppressions within our own cultures, families and lineages? Um, yeah. So for me, mela yellow and my participation, and I guess, [00:05:30] like Asian activist stuff, um is about Yeah, I guess. Structural collective stuff. If that's, uh, you know, and about kind of diaspora about being a settler, being a migrant, Um, about how that all fits in with, you know, global nation statehood, Um, and then also about creating space to address the ills of racism and internalised racism. Um, and how culture and family affects us regarding sexuality and gender. [00:06:00] Um, you know how what state, social and familial violence looks like. Um, what? How? How language loss affects us. Um, and what are some of the social pressures around, like jobs and kids and having partners that can also be quite culturally particular at times, So yeah, I guess I'm having this loose grouping over the last, I don't know, like, eight years. Seven years? I'm not really sure, uh, for the last wee while has, um yeah, helped [00:06:30] me to have lots of clarity, um, and sustenance, which has enabled. Yeah, I think, um, networks to grow and for me to be a bit clearer, slightly around how I cultivate my practise of social justice in a Yeah, so, yeah, I don't actually know. Yeah. 2005. I think it was after For and seabed. Which means it was [00:07:00] after 2004. So, and thank you for that really far reaching context. Why? It's awesome to hear. Um, So the format for this is quite loose, and I think we're just going to kind of ask each other questions and get some responses from the group. Was that your sort of vision? I kind of it to be a kind of conversation between us about some of the things that we, um, want [00:07:30] to talk about and share with you. Um, I guess I can talk a little bit about, um my connection to meow yellow And, um, some of the things that from the first issue. It was actually, um, really eye opening for me when I got I think I was given the zine, um, by someone. And at the time, I did not know any other, um, Asian people involved in grassroots social justice or feminist activism. And, [00:08:00] um and I was really trying to understand some of the issues around being Chinese on colonised land as well. And with the conversations being majority, um, bicultural, it was really, um I guess validating to see someone else talking about it from a similar background. And so I got in touch with Y, and we, um, worked on the second issue, I think, in 2007, um, I'm [00:08:30] better at moving decks and yeah, and from there, um, we decided that maybe there are probably more people like us, um, that we can connect with and get them on board to contribute. Um, so from there, it kind of grew. Now we have about six issues. Um, they come up pretty irregular, like whenever we get round to doing it. Um, and sometimes we all kind of travel around the world as well. And actually, some of our contributors aren't from here. [00:09:00] um, been all over the world. So, uh, there's various perspectives in the scene. So, I I tried to avoid talking, actually, but, um, here I am, uh, so I was going to talk about this thing of others, other others in in a kind of New Zealand colonised context. So, um, I guess being being a recently colonised country, it's pretty common more increasingly so to have people like me mixed people, you know, popping [00:09:30] up everywhere. And, um, people are asking you where you're from. And I guess the thing that I thought about in relation to this panel was the feeling of not so strongly identifying as pakeha or not so strongly identifying as Chinese, but that category of other being a really kind of defining identity for me. Um, more so than kind of any other blood, identity or whatever. You want to call that doing scare quotes for people who are listening to this? Um, yeah, and And [00:10:00] I guess me kind of feeling more that I aligned with other others than other Chinese or other, um, pakeha. And I'm going to single out Sally, and I'm going to single out Heather wherever she is. um, and people like that who I feel also understand that difficulty of, um not always being so welcomed by one parent group, Um, and having to kind of carve out another [00:10:30] space with other people who experience that kind of detachment or, um, let's wait. There's another way of describing it. Someone else. Sorry, Yeah, kind of alienation. And I guess especially because, like, I, I suppose in like a New Zealand context, we're very familiar. Or or there's an understanding that, um, for Maori, you have the ability to, and that's kind of enough of a claim, and in a way you can kind of say it, and that's [00:11:00] true. But I feel like for Chinese at least, how the how, the way I feel like I'm presented. You have to really pass. And because because I don't pass and it seems to be a kind of pure blood thing, I'm doing scarecrows again. Um, it's very hard to feel a part of that group, and instead the the other group is kind of the one that that I belong to mostly, and I feel like that comes into play in all the forms. You know, when I give blood. It kind of says ethnicity. [00:11:30] Other, You know, all sorts of things like that. Um, so those weren't very coherent thoughts, but that was kind of what I wanted to talk about. Does anybody else want to contribute to that or anyone in the audience that felt like they had They had something they wanted to expand on. Oh, yeah. Cool. Yeah, me too. Um, as a double diaspora kid. Kind of like you, I suppose, like I'm Indian, but I'm Malaysian Indian. And so that connection to India [00:12:00] is very distant and remote. And I had never set foot into India until 2009. I don't know sometime. Um, it was the first and only time. And, um, yeah, I really the identification with just being other is something that really, really resonates with me. I think, um, as a migrant, I feel that's the common experience amongst all migrants, you know, And and that's how we get to know each other. [00:12:30] And it feels like it's a very it's a very different Where are you from? From question that I get It's It's like a where are you from? And, you know, obviously new Zealand's never never satisfactory answer. Um, and then and then if you kind of tell people why you look different, they kind of tell you, I know, But you no, it's not Chinese I had it for No, it's not Chinese, maybe Filipino, and you're like, No, I've just told you the answer like, thank you for your professional opinion. You know, it's like a kind of a weird [00:13:00] kind of, yeah, the place to be in. Um, someone tried to hit on me the other day by asking me where I was from, and I replied to South, um and that really confused them. But also not enough to, like, stop them continuing with the play that so they're like, Oh, yeah, that that sounds really exotic. I like That's what Auckland buddies. I think it's interesting [00:13:30] what you have touched on in relation to, like, not feeling with one group or the other. I think, um, in a way that is kind of culturally relevant to, um those of us that are like 1. 5 generation. I think we feel that with, like, culturally like, you know, when I go back to China, I don't fit in as Chinese. But when I'm here, I don't fit in, as you know, culture either either. So it's kind of the in between us. [00:14:00] Yeah, Kirsty, maybe you might be able to relate to as well. Um, I was thinking about the multiplicities of, like, privilege and, um, marginality in saying so. I am Han Chinese on my mother's side, which means that we're colonists, you know, like Chinese Imperialists in Singapore, where I where I was born. Um, And on my father's side, they were indentured labourers from the poll tax, um, gold [00:14:30] mining. And so there was a lot of yellow peril stuff there. There was a lot of xenophobia. Um, And now, being on this land here, um, I have a lot of, you know, privilege in terms of, um I guess assimilation and also economically. But when you walk down the street, you encounter a lot of micro aggressions, all of that stuff. So it's kind of different navigation of that sort of stuff. [00:15:00] And I wanted to ask everyone about language and what kind of role you feel that that plays in, um, space and accent privilege. Yeah. Or like for me, I, I only speak English because, um, my family came to New Zealand in the eighties, and so that was kind of the doctrine of the day to simulate or die. Um, and so being able to speak fluent un accented English was really important. But that meant we lost so much. [00:15:30] Um, and coming to terms with that has been a really important part of my journey, I think, Yeah, I think I can really agree with the whole language and accent kind of thing, because, um, I was born in New Zealand, but I lived in Beijing, in Singapore when I was younger and even being in an international school, you know, you have this American accent. I came back when I was 12 and having to have, you know, a very Chinese face being like, Who are you? Where are you from? You know, and having to Unluck the American accent into something key people accepted [00:16:00] was that it actually is, like, a privilege and coming back into, um, New Zealand at the age of 12 as well. Like, there was a lot of other first generation, um, you know, Chinese kids that I was hanging out with and like That's how you sort of like as a um you know how people navigate the differences between the types of Asian. I always find that really, um like, Oh, it kind of really bothered me that, you know, one person did Lisa because they just did not have, you know, the key accent and then returning [00:16:30] to those more first generation communities the like idea of being a banana or an Oreo. You know where, um because you don't have language, That means you're you're not properly, uh, an Asian person. Yeah. Yeah, I felt like that. That was kind of my mom's experience a little bit. So being the eldest of four and her parents not speaking English and being the kind of translator for the family and really appreciating how important it was to have this English language skill that you can kind of be as [00:17:00] good as everyone else with or something. And I feel like maybe in some way, that kind of influenced her career as a kind of proof reader type person being just like better than the white people at their own language or something like that. You know, I felt like it kind of that quickly. She kind of learned that was a way that you could B respected or claim back some of the power that's been taken from you or something. Mhm. Hm. I had a recent experience with, like, [00:17:30] um, deciding whether to speak Chinese or English. Um, So I I came to New Zealand when I was six, so I didn't have any schooling in china. Um, but I did know the language. It was my first language. Um, but I remember when I got here, um, when I was kind of growing up up to intermediate school, I was kind of like trying to shy away from learning [00:18:00] the language. And that's because, you know, like, white supremacy exists. And English is the dominant kind of, um, way of communicating. And I remember, you know, my parents, um, making me go to Chinese classes and stuff like that, and I didn't want to go make excuses. Um, but now I really regret that, Um, and my recent experience was, um I work for, uh, an organisation called, and we do, um, campaigns around [00:18:30] family violence in our communities. And I was speaking to Chinese media and I was trying really hard to be able to communicate what I wanted to say in Mandarin. Um, but I just couldn't do it. And the reporter was just, like, just speak English and yeah, that felt Yeah, that felt kind of like, Oh, I really need to learn more. And I guess you know, I've thought a lot about going back to China or being in an environment that speaks more Mandarin to be able to maintain [00:19:00] it because, I mean, I think it's hard if you never learnt it to begin with. But when when you have, it's easier to pick it up again. So, yeah, I guess we, um I originally wanna talk about feminism as well, right? And, um, how that relates to our lives. And I think actually, scene making is one of the ways that I got. Um, I guess that's the word. [00:19:30] Like it was a form of, like, consciousness raising for me. Like I learned about feminism through zines and making zings because you kind of like, um can kind of talk about personal stuff and relate it to political things and try to understand the bigger picture through the process of writing and connecting with other people. Yeah, and it's non hierarchical as well. Like, I quite like that. It's kind of person to person, and you can say what you want. It's un censored. [00:20:00] Doesn't have your polish writing. Yeah, I came to feminism through academia, which was really weird. Um, because you're, like, one brown face and a million non. Um, And then, um, so finding a space where my feminism actually made sense to me personally and wasn't about one trying to save myself from my own culture because that was very yeah. Didn't [00:20:30] really resonate. Um, and, um, finding a post colonialism interception or kind of feminism that, um, actually was true to who I was and didn't come from somewhere else. Um, and finding feminists that were Asian and had, um, been really involved, um, for a long time. And and the really rich history of Asian feminism was really important to me. And, um So when I finished my undergraduate degree, I went and worked in both Thailand [00:21:00] and Malaysia, Um, in feminist NGO S. And, um, so being in a completely Asian feminist space was, um, interesting and very challenging. Um, but also amazing. Yeah. Where did everyone else, like do feminism? My mom, Um, my mom, but also specifically Asian feminism is from And Shasha came to uni one day and they were talking [00:21:30] about which is a feminist. Um, domestic violence agency does amazing work. And at that time, I was part of another feminist organisation, and it wasn't doing it for me. And only in retrospect, I realised it was because they were white liberal cupcake feminists, you know, um and they were casually transphobic and they were casually racist, and that really [00:22:00] didn't do it for me. Um, so I mean, actually Wow. Yeah, I think you played a part in it for me too. Probably. So. I was already kind of come through academia and stuff and had some friends, moms who were pretty political, and that was it was all starting to stew in my head. And then what class are we in together? Is it human sexualities? I want to say or something? Yeah, And there was this, like, little kid who used to come to school on a push like the one that nobody, nobody even takes a push scooter anywhere. [00:22:30] And it was me. And she's like, just scooted to class, just totally unashamed pack up her scooter during the class and would sit there, and then she'd pop it open and scoot wherever she was next going. I was like, Man, who is this kid that scoots around? And then, um And then we became friends, and it was good. Um, and then I ended up living in a super feminist flat, and it was It was great. It all just kind of grew. And why was there? I was there, and Sally and Nicola were there, and Heather was there for a bit. [00:23:00] Um, we all just kind of fed off each other and wound each other up, mostly Sally. But, um, yeah, that was really formative for me in many ways, that the house is way more educational than being at university, having conversations with real people. Not just kind of stuffy white lecturers and stuff. Yeah, Yeah, at least. Yeah. Oh, no. I was just gonna say it's just so much more intersectional when when it's real and it's people and it's you're talking about it and people's lives and stuff. You know, [00:23:30] I always say that I had my best feminist education from the bloggers sphere like, that's where I really found into, like, intersectionality and feminism. That was not stupid. Yeah, it's a technical term. Yeah, it's very, um how about you? What? Um, I guess I don't really know. Yeah, I guess I was aware that there was feminism. Um, and that [00:24:00] a lot of it was around, Uh, I guess stuff that just didn't seem really relevant to me around, um, like, work and stuff. And I knew that. You know, while there was a struggle for a white woman to be able to enter the workforce, I knew my mother was cleaning people's houses. So I'm like, Wow, she's really working. Um, so, yeah, there was a lot of stuff that I guess didn't fit. And I I could see that it was like a white feminism. So I just knew there had There has to be other [00:24:30] other forms. And so, yeah, I guess reading around and, um, seeing, I guess lots of the kind of participation within knew that, um, yeah, uh, that woman have always been integral to social justice movements. Um, and that it wasn't always like a You didn't. You didn't always have to caucus off. So, um yeah, I remember hearing, I guess about one of the tensions of Was it reclaim [00:25:00] the night or something? And there was a conversation where? Yeah, I guess Maori woman was saying, Well, we men should march behind us. And I was thinking like, Oh, OK, that's really interesting. So, yeah, I guess from there, um, reading lots of different things around like indigenous feminism and third world feminism. Um, yeah, maybe you be like, OK, well, it's obviously connected. So how what does that look like? You know, what does it look like when we organise? And what does that look [00:25:30] like in our meetings? What does it look like in our houses, That kind of thing Who ends up doing the dishes? Um, yeah, that kind of stuff. And I think it's really important to acknowledge how colonial white feminism actually is and the roots of it in that way. Um, yeah. Does anyone have anything they want to say about that? Um, yeah, I. I think my first experiences with feminism was, um, working in predominantly [00:26:00] women groups. And, um, yeah, I kind of felt like in that space, there wasn't like much of an acknowledgement of other cultures. And, like I felt like, you know, that kind of had to be an assimilated, um, personal colour to be able to even, like, communicate on that level. Um, so I had enough of it, um, and found other people, [00:26:30] which was really it's hard to express, like that feeling of affinity when you kind of find someone else that has had, like, similar experiences or can share, um, or, like, you know, it's a shared understanding of what it is like to be, um, Asian or, you know, socialised as women or, you know, read as female. Um, these these experiences are [00:27:00] things that we can kind of like, um, leverage off to talk about other political issues because, um, you know all these forms of oppression like we experience them and they're not like something out there. And so it's kind of better that, you know, you can start having self determined spaces and movements where, um, your experiences are reflected. So [00:27:30] does you wanna kind of maybe share some of those things like experiences that they might have had and maybe dominated feminist faces? Do you want me to say something. You're looking at me. Um, so I'm involved in a lot of more mainstream women's groups. Um, like the secret radical person infiltrating them. Um, and I feel like like, it's a weird kind of level of respectability. Politics where I sit there and kind of go, Yes. I am [00:28:00] so well behaved and good. Yes. You know, um, and, yeah, I guess they're They're all old white feminists, and and they're all very kind of sick and wave and that we always have these conversations, which is like, Why are there no young people? Why are there no people of colour? And it's like because you guys keep them out, you know, they're just There's not really an awareness that that so much of that identity excludes so much and doesn't make people want [00:28:30] to join. And I guess my involvement there feels like a way to kind of slowly chip away at that. Um, even though it's it's really exhausting. Um, and so So, like, the issues that they work on are really centred around white women. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah. And very kind of like classist as well. You know, they're very kind of, um I don't know. And the thing with, like challenging, um, white women in these spaces, it's [00:29:00] It's a whole another struggle because such a power imbalance and having to see nods. And then it kind of like, you know, what Kirsty was saying, Like white women's tears is like It becomes about them like they're hurt by being accused of being racist. And then it's like, you know, like, just resent their experiences. Yeah, for sure. And it always it comes back to the things that they fought for. And I feel like, Yeah, cool [00:29:30] pat on the back. Thank thank you. You know what about things that are affecting people today? You know, it's always kind of like you guys have it so easy now you don't know shit. All of you know, I find that really, um, dismissive. It's really hard to kind of engage with people and and work towards something better when they keep holding on to the past. And it's funny. It's funny as well because, you know, they felt that about the previous generation iteration of feminists, and yet they're unable to see that they kind of put [00:30:00] it on Yeah, on us, and I think it's important to acknowledge that you have that same dynamic in Asian feminist spaces as well. This idea that you haven't paid your dues, you haven't earned your place, Um, in the movement. And I guess part of it is cultural, like this idea of respecting your elders. Um, but, yeah, those dynamics do happen, and they're really hard, um, to kind of shift and to move in the same conversations [00:30:30] about why are there no young people? Well, because you don't invite them. You want them to come, But you don't want them to say anything. Gonna be there for, like, a kind of box ticking sense. Yes. We got some young people. Good. Um, when I was working in Malaysia, I went to a conference, and, um, they were really showcasing the fact that they had, like, um really, um, centred young people in this conference. But what young people were invited to do [00:31:00] was to give the flowers to the speakers. Um, that was their involvement. Um, yeah. So that was interesting. Yeah. I feel like some of the groups that I'm involved with they're always trying to do various get together things, but there's always a charge, and it's like $20 and I'm like, That's immediately leaving people out. You know, it's super exclusive to have a cover charge. That's that's actually a lot of money. Um, of course, you're only going to get a subset of people [00:31:30] that can afford that. And they're like white, middle class retired women. That's who you get. And then they come and talk about the issues without anyone reason who should be involved. You know, I think it's embed in cultural A as well. Like, for instance, today is National Poetry Day today, on and off in, in addition to this. But, um, this week, for instance, there was a discussion held being held at [00:32:00] the Auckland Public Library, uh, about feminism. And, um, we were having a look at that and thought, you know, like, Oh, yeah, that's I mean, you know, it's It's an assumption made there that, of course, women are going to control the discussion on what is Yeah, but you know, like and but a spaces spaces have already been made by people of colour and by Maori women, um, for our voices to be heard, and [00:32:30] yet there's still no you know, honest, inclusive, um, you know, willingness to dialogue with us. And so, you know, like so big ups to you guys for organising this today, because it's it's really essential to have this conversation and to be having it continuously. Um, and, you know, I just I just want to add to this. In 1985 I went to the UN. Um, what was it? A women's forum in Sydney and [00:33:00] and Nairobi at both of those conferences. The women, of course, who were organising those conferences were were white women. You know, um, from around Australia, the U, the, uh, Europe etcetera. And they all got their own perspectives on you know how that power works. And it was fucking frightening. But what I want to say is that, um, you know, we all have feminism in our own cultures, and it's really essential to keep, um, forging the way forging [00:33:30] that, that that voice to be heard in, um, in international, you know, forums such as that and the the that you you've been talking about to always continue that that voice should be heard. It has to be. It has to be maintained. And the racism back then in the eighties was quite, you know, it was like I thought it was in your face, but to them, it's just an ordinary kind of day to day kind of thing. But if we hadn't have done that, um, [00:34:00] it wouldn't have, um we wouldn't have been able to have ignited that, um, sense of solidarity with other women of colour. Aboriginal women, American Indian woman, Asian woman, Um, all of our all of our colours. Yeah. So yeah. So, yeah, I just want to say that that's all. I think that's really interesting thing. Like within New Zealand, there's very little like public dialogue, for example, between like [00:34:30] Asians and Maori and indigenous people. Um, and how those, like migrants sit kind of uncomfortably on stolen land. I think it's something that we've all write and talk about a lot. Um, but the idea that there's always whiteness facilitating that discussion, and we're just invited to the table. But we can't directly sort of sit down together. Um, yeah. With the guest speakers. Yeah, more than little tokens. [00:35:00] Um, is there anything you want to add around that? Um I'm just thinking we've got 15 minutes left because we finish at 2. 38. Um, is there anything that we want to talk to? Um, yeah. Yeah, Well, we have someone here with a Chinese sounding last name. I like to be here to talk about housing. Well, I mean, we can all talk about I'm not buying it enough. [00:35:30] Did you get your t-shirt? Yeah, like it is too nationalism. Um, I also have a property investor hat. Everyone knows what your agenda is here. My gender, what your agenda is. I don't know. I don't know how long. Um um I I don't actually know where to start. Um, [00:36:00] I guess any acknowledgement about housing issues has to be taking place on, uh, we have to acknowledge that it's taking place on colonising stolen land. So anything, any change making venture, anything has to be in solidarity with, um I stand in solidarity with the Tamaki housing group. It's a group of ladies out in G I who were actively fighting the evictions and demolitions and destruction of their community. Um, [00:36:30] and that's happening in the name of gentrification. Privatisation. Um, they're also mostly G. I has a massive history of, um being home to Maori war battalions and, um, yeah, it's a It's another form of neo colonialism and it's absolutely disgusting. Um, but being I guess one of the only Asian faces [00:37:00] in the whole housing struggle, um, is a really funny place to be in because because it's a bicultural rhetoric. And, um, you've got the government saying no to asset sales. You know, um, they're taking our land. It's like, Well, you've already taken the land like it doesn't make any It doesn't make any sense. But us as model minorities were used as Pons. So we're, um, useful in some discussions [00:37:30] and, um, scapegoated and others and xenophobic rhetoric is really, really easy because it's deep seated hatred. I think it's deep seated other of people who are kind of, you know, um, it's an open discussion, but it's a I think, continual exploration into [00:38:00] where I sit personally in this, Um, but always, I think fundamentally in solidarity with yeah, it makes me kind of think from what you were saying about from what you were saying is what what you were saying, Kirsty, is how I guess you know when people say, Oh, when I'm asked where I'm from, When Asian people or whoever the you know who's in fashion that day to be used as a scapegoat becomes used as a scapegoat. What has happened [00:38:30] is that I guess thinking about it as colonisation has disrupted or damaged the the relationship that could have been formed. So you know when So it's really different for me when someone who is ask me where I'm from, as opposed to someone who's Maori asking me where I'm from because they kind of what you're trying to establish is different. Um, yeah, and I think the relationship has been damaged as well, so that we because things are [00:39:00] mediated not only through the English language of which we, you know, we we speak and need to speak to talk to each other. Now, um that, yeah, the relationships have been damaged, So we haven't been able to settle, you know, um, honourably and in negotiation with, um that all that is mediated again through. And so, yeah, you know, whether it's housing because people are concerned about their security and needing [00:39:30] places to live or whether it's what language and whose language should be taught in secondary schools or, um, you know, conversations around feminism and who needs to be saved. From whom? That kind of thing. Um, yeah. What are the ways in which we can continue to bypass? I guess that white noise or that white disruption to have those conversations outside to repair repair the relationships that have been damaged through colonisation that I mean, we might [00:40:00] have damaged those relationships ourselves anyway, you know, it's not like, Yeah, we're all perfect, but yeah. How do we continue to have those connections? Really? Yeah. And I think for me personally, I've always seen within my own family and culture the idea that assimilation is contingent on acceptance by whiteness. And that means by putting ourselves at odds with, um, and participating in that colonial [00:40:30] framework because that's how you get ahead as a migrant. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's all mediated by the state as well. Definitely. I totally agree. Yeah. Um, is there more things on the piece of paper we want to talk about? Yeah. Yeah. Hm. [00:41:00] Yeah. Does anybody want to add anything or ask anything or we're we're experts. Here's your chance and our non hierarchical way. And so those of you who kind of identify as culturally other and feel kind of displaced. Do you find yourself having to sort of inhabit have the white sort of the dominant white [00:41:30] spaces for feminism that we kind of really dominate our sort of feminist? Do you find yourself having to be the go between between all of these groups? Oh, well, yeah, I guess I am. In a sense, like I, I feel yeah, especially that within all these kind of white groups I'm part of where I don't know what they think of me. And it's hard to know. Am I just not the white person there, or am I the kind of token person person they're comfortable with? [00:42:00] Yeah, it's like when people call you, like, say, you're not like all the other Asians, as if it's a compliment. Yeah, that kind of. That's when you know people think of you as being safe. Any other question? I was just gonna say, and I wonder how much of that is actually generated by me. You know me feeling so familiar with white culture as well that that [00:42:30] I kind of almost have gravitated to it in a sense you know that That these groups, um maybe while I don't actually feel fully accepted there or I don't feel totally comfortable with them, I'm familiar enough with kind of white culture to know how to be in it, if you know what I mean. And that's a privilege. In a way, it's such a privilege that you can be kind of read as white, that people you can kind of be in a space without kind of overt racism directed at you all the time. Yeah, yeah, I guess. I also [00:43:00] wonder if it's strategic in the sense of there are There are spaces that, um you know that if you act a certain way, you will be granted access. So if you dress in a certain way, talk in a certain way whatever you know, you know that you can get get in and that stink, and that's also strategic. So if we want access, we do these certain things, and I think there's a degree where we we know we know what we're doing, you know, And you you do it to get stuff done or you do it to feed your family or to get that job or to get that house [00:43:30] or whatever you need to do. And so then I guess what else is also part of the strategy, you know, like, yeah. Yeah. And I guess I feel like for me, part of it is it sounds so kind of tactical, but like some kind of infiltration of those groups kind of come and be like I am. I'm very nice. Kind of, you know, talk about the things that they don't want to talk about racism and transphobia this kind of stuff. And then they have to have a chat about it because you liked me. I was so nice talk about it. [00:44:00] Um, put some shit on their agenda that they maybe otherwise wouldn't have come across. You must be different working with the white woman. Yeah. Have you? Have you? Have you? Have you had, like, any experience working with younger things? Um, other than my friends in groups and well, and stuff like that. But, um [00:44:30] yeah, I know. What What have I got with these old white women? Do I keep going back to them? You. Any other questions from the floor? I am wondering, um, you mentioned a while back that you were? Yeah. Um, So, me in particular, I'm really influenced by South Asian [00:45:00] feminism because it's something that really speaks to me. Um, so, and especially when I moved back to Asia, which, like, repatriation, is a whole another thing in and of itself. But anyway, um, like, um oh, man, you've put me on the spot. Now, you know, when you're trying to think of things and your brain goes blank? Um, yes. A guy? Um, yeah. Um, yeah. So many. And there's [00:45:30] like once you kind of start digging, it opens up this whole plethora of voices that if you grow up learning feminism in like a white dominant space, you just don't even realise even exists. And it's quite mind blowing. Um, like, for me, I'm Mali, which comes from like the south of India. And, um, that has a really rich history of women's participation in politics and activism. And, um, like women in my culture became worse [00:46:00] off through colonisation, which is not a narrative that you hear very often. Um, but it is very true. So yeah, um, that's why I love the Internet, you know, like we all love the Internet. Was there any acknowledgement of those feminists that you just mentioned in academia? Um, a little bit. Um, I'd like to say that because I did. I studied [00:46:30] political studies and the Auckland political studies. Um, faculty is very critical theory oriented, which is nice. Um, and so there was some It wasn't as, um whitewashed as some other departments. Maybe, but very little. Um, yeah, I think I we read. And probably that was about it. Because, like for me, when when those kind of authors were included, it was really, like a special topic of one week in your whole class [00:47:00] kind of thing. And it's always facilitated by your white lecturer. And it's kind of contextualised as this other kind of Here's what some radical people were doing while this mainstream stuff was happening. You know, it never really kind of brought to the front or Yeah, it's never centred. Um, but yeah, yeah, so much. Judith, don't get me wrong. I love Judith Butler, but like, she wasn't the first [00:47:30] or the only person to have those ideas. Yeah, and the bitter taste is it's all in English. Yes, it's all mediated through English and academia. What's published and what's not. Um, yeah, I have a question. Are you talking about my progressions earlier? And I know that this is, you know, Pacific Island community. I was just, um because this is these [00:48:00] are things that you kind of do. And it's funny when you have to be on a panel and, like, what are the things that are specific and like? So, if there are like provisions on that and you talk about strategies and the Z is one response, for example, in this panel is another and you do such, you know, sort of intersectional work. If you had strategies that, as you know, their micro aggressions are their micro responses are [00:48:30] So I just wondered if, as a group you have Yeah, I think for all of the white people have to leave the room. I'm joking. No, I mean because, like I said, when it happens to me, people say things like, you speak English so well, I'm just so standing, you know, like because it just [00:49:00] it happens so much that it kind of like you just laugh, laugh or cry that I just wondered if you had any thoughts on that Sort of like because it's I feel like responding to yourself. When people ask me when I'm where I'm from is a micro resistance. The people are always asking me where are you from? And I want to say Where are you from? You know this [00:49:30] person? I was born here, but you were here. You also, you know, like like Oh, so you came here. I was born here. So your sisters came at 18. They ask you like I don't know. You probably think you can ask me these things. You're so entitled. I wanna deal with it like OK, just like another [00:50:00] micros assistance that I have is insisting on the proper pronunciation of my name and not allowing people to call me by shortened versions anymore. Um, yeah, that's really important to me. Yeah, downstairs at the zine table did you do? It means that we written like a for the prices of the zine. We written like a 1 to $5 and you pay what you want depending on the the privileged scale, it's really just to kind [00:50:30] of pay what you want. But people are like oh, quite confronted because they have to go. Oh, I have to quantify all my privileges right now. Just and that's quite funny. It's, like a lighthearted way. Yeah, And then I think a couple of our, um wait, let me get this right. Read left. Some of them read, left to right. And some of them read right to left. So the opposite of what other people think And [00:51:00] it's that's often quite people really perplexed, Don't know how to read it. And we're like, Oh, yeah, yeah. So I think, yeah, I guess little things that we do do with that kind of disrupts things a little bit. And so yeah, and like for me, surrounding yourself with people that get it, you know, like especially just being able to be, just come home and be like, Oh, you know, And that microaggression book we made, we made a microaggression book [00:51:30] because so frequently we were confronted with shit that pissed us off. And then we'd kind of talk it out and, you know, become this phrase like put it in the book and the act of actually having to put it in the book was just too stressful. But the book just remains empty. We never got to writing in the book because it was just like, Oh, it was just too too intense to actually have to. It makes it too real. It just enough to kind of say it out loud and know that there's the book. If it was really serious, you could put it in the book. Yeah, actually, like the other day my car got towed. [00:52:00] And then when I went to, like, pick up my car, the guy was like, Where are you from? This white guy And like, you know, I get real tired of answering like the series of answers. So I'm just like China, and he was like, Oh, I'm going there soon. Where would you recommend it? Like, I don't know. I haven't been everywhere in China. I'm not gonna give you free travel advice. I think my car has been towed, but [00:52:30] yeah, it's like, really annoying that, you know, it's like you're a representative of China, everything about it and give me free travel advice. No. Did anybody else want to share any kind of micro resistance techniques? I just let a beat go, so it's like a silent for a beat. And then I'll answer because you feel embarrassed you I hate you. That has a really nice [00:53:00] there was one time. This is not very much, but I suppose there was one time I said, I do that, uh, this one guy really this, like, very wrong. And I think I was really, really wrong going back home. And I'm not telling you where it is. Yeah, [00:53:30] because I found that same South instead of New Zealand or Auckland or something like that is really specific and very confusing to people. So it really shuts them up, and then you don't have to follow along with this the subsequent questions, but yeah, I'm not really sure about the ethics of this, but I pretend that I can't speak English like it got me out of school. He So now The other day, I searched up Chinese accents on YouTube [00:54:00] because I wanted to get rid of my Kiwi accent. Seriously, because it gives me a lot of access, right? And someone turns around and like, Hello. And you're like, Hello. Like they treat you differently from when you're like, hello. But again, I'm not really sure how that makes me uncomfortable. I don't know. Or just identifying yourself. [00:54:30] Yeah, so they don't have to do it for you being as facetious as possible. Yeah, I think it was one time. Like someone asked us where we were from, and we just stared at them like, confused, like What do you mean? You know what What organisation We're from like, you know, like, you know, it could be a number of things. Usually it doesn't surprise me at all, but this is not a very, um, [00:55:00] polite conversation, but, um, the other night, this guy, he you know, it was the familiar hands on the body when they're dancing behind you. And I was like, broke it off me. He was just like, Oh, you're a disgusting Chinese bitch anyway, you know, like fucking disgusting Chinese bitch. And I was like, Oh, you know, I usually hear disgusting, bitch, But you don't have to. No, you're [00:55:30] just up to the game. That's one less question you have to answer. That's true. And so we come to the end of our time now. I'm so sorry. What a story. Does anyone have any brief final remarks? Thanks for coming out. Please Plug. Um I want to do a Zen and it's called Invasion, specifically [00:56:00] about the housing crisis and the xenophobic Asian invasion. I didn't make it up, but it was Pat Booth and Winston Peters. In the nineties, they had a series of articles called Invasion Invasion. Anyway, but I run out of time. So if anyone wants to contribute or like, do something about it, it would be awesome. And we can make t-shirts, right? Yeah. Thank you. Oh, that is [00:56:30] us.

IRN: 947
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_in_the_making_kevin_haunui.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004385
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089679
TITLE: Kevin Haunui - Queer History in the Making
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Kevin Haunui
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asia Pacific Outgames; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Kevin Haunui; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); National Library of New Zealand; Queer History in the Making (2015); Wellington; archives; celebration; community; history
DATE: 12 September 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Kevin Haunui, chair of LAGANZ, reflects on the community event Queer History in the Making.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I think from a point of view, I think it's been a success. I think the our profile has has been put out to our community, and in that respect we couldn't have done uh, a better job. I think of doing that. I think the from a community perspective, having spoken to quite a few people who have been here today. And, you know, there have been over over 100 or so people throughout the day that [00:00:30] have attended these four hours. Um, they they really liked the opportunity of having the space to to network and to, um, see what's going on to see other parts of the community that they normally might not engage with until you have a whole of community event. Um, but I think that whole aspect of history, of of thinking about it, um, in raising that profile, [00:01:00] whether it's for or other institutions or other organisations, the the the idea of having a Queer History Month, um, to be celebrated by by our community, I think is shows that there is a there is a there is relevance there and that there are ongoing issues for us to consider. So from all those perspectives. In my view, I think it has been, uh, a a remarkable success, [00:01:30] really. And as I say to have so many groups respond, uh, and to share a little bit about themselves is a really is a really affirming, um, affirming space for people. One of the things I love about these type of events is, um, just the the residue that kind of lingers. So the the energy, um, carries on and and I I found that with the art games as well, where, um, years later, you can you can pull on that energy that that you [00:02:00] you sense today. Yeah, that's absolutely right. I mean, the the in celebrating and talking, we do reenergize ourselves. We do get to back to the roots of why, uh, why these sorts of things or why what we do gives us that energy. We know that there's a, uh, that there's a reason why we get together. We know that it needs to continue, and it's just good to to be able [00:02:30] to touch base with those things. Even though that might not have been the original intention of the event. In fact, that's what happened um, so I totally agree that, uh, you come away feeling a sense of not just community, but a sense of of, uh, and not just a sense of compassion or or anything like that, but a sense of purpose. Uh, around. Why, um, we do the things we do in our community. Uh, [00:03:00] and who we do it with? Yeah.

IRN: 946
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_in_the_making_gay_line_wellington.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004384
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089678
TITLE: Gay Line Wellington - Queer History in the Making
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: John Mayes
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2000s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Dunedin; Gay Line Wellington; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); John Mayes; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); National Library of New Zealand; OUTLine NZ; Queer History in the Making (2015); Security Intelligence Service; Wellington; activities; archives; community; history; homosexual law reform; internet; religion; security check; sexuality; social; volunteer
DATE: 12 September 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: An interview with John Mayes from Gay Line Wellington. This interview was recorded during the community event Queer History in the Making.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, I'm John Mays, and I'm part of Gay Line Wellington, and we've come along to talk to various organisations about their listing on our website and, uh, what we can do to help them to do more. Tell me about the website. Well, it's been around since the year 2000. It's got about 500 listings of gay and gay friendly organisations nationwide. Now, um, we have around about 45. [00:00:30] I think it is articles of interest to gay and lesbian people. A lot of those articles, um now we've arranged for people to be able to make their own comments on the on the articles. We monitor those, of course, and only let the sensible ones through. Um and, uh, there's some quite good discussions going on about religion and and gay sexuality. Good discussions going [00:01:00] on about sexuality generally. And really, some of it's quite deep stuff. Hm, Quite interesting. Prior to this website, it must have been quite hard to actually get a a kind of a hub where all that information was collected in one place. It's not collected anywhere else. It wasn't. Never has been before now, So this is the first time that there's been a national database of gay information and it's a really, um I think a worthwhile resource. So 500 entries? How easy is that To manage [00:01:30] maintaining it and keeping it up to date is massively difficult, but at least it's all in one place. And we've organised things so that other organisations can share that information. They can draw on our database and use that to create listings on their own websites. So that potentially means that, uh, you only need to edit a listing about one organisation in one place. Obviously, that's not achieved yet, but that's potential. [00:02:00] So today we're at the, um ans event show and tell which is, uh, looking at kind of archiving in the the rainbow space. One of the comments made this morning was Well, what do we do with all this digital information? How are we going to archive it? Do you have any thoughts on on how you keep this information now but also keeping it going in the future? I haven't thought about this before. Um, by chance, I suppose nothing that we create on the website is thrown [00:02:30] away. It's all archived. So it could be drawn on. Um, people could get into the database, given access to it and get a bit of history about how organisations have evolved over time. Yeah, that's an interesting thought. Um, one thing. I, I guess we need to really think about, um and I think I I Now you remind me. I think I need to talk to the games about how we keep this information in the future or for [00:03:00] the future. Um, we might die any time. You know, who knows? And, um, it seems such an amazing resource with, you know, contact details with, um, descriptions about so many different community, um, events and organisations. It would be such a shame to kind of lose that and stuff it it it would. Yes. And, um, we'd like it to be even bigger than it is. Actually, one of our big problems is is people resources to do the editing [00:03:30] to gather the information to keep it up to date? Um, if we could only get a few more people involved, we could do one hell of a lot more. I would potentially there would be at least double the amount of listings available if we really worked at it. So, yeah, with the, uh, number of listings that have come in, have there been any organisations or events that have just, like, really kind of surprised you thinking? Oh, I didn't realise there was that particular group out there or Oh, yeah, as well. Especially outside Wellington. I'm reasonably in touch with [00:04:00] what's going on in Wellington, but yeah, there's just an amazing amount of stuff going on around the country as a whole. I was particularly ignorant about the South Island and quite amazed to see so much stuff going on in places like Dunedin, which, where you think there wouldn't be much happening. But yes, there is. Yeah. Uh, Auckland, of course is big, uh, much bigger than than than us. And luckily, um, outline in Auckland are actually maintaining [00:04:30] the Auckland data on that website. So we are sharing the workload a little bit. Yeah, this year 2015, we we're working, uh, towards the 30th anniversary of homosexual law reform. It goes fast. Um, I'm wondering, uh, can you kind of reflect on, um how far do you think we have come in? That 30 years and are there things that we still need to look at? Well, we've certainly come an awful long way. [00:05:00] Um, at the time of law reform, I was working in a senior government position, and I had to be extremely careful about sharing my private life with people. Um, at that time, I used to have to have, um SI S security checks, and they were horrendous. Well, I don't know if that still goes on because I don't work anymore. I'm retired now, but, uh, I'm imagining it doesn't matter anymore. People don't don't do that. So the [00:05:30] stress of the stress of keeping your sexuality, um, the knowledge of your sexuality is where it safe is gone completely. Um, for the majority of people, there will be still people who, um, for instance, are married and gay who may have a need to keep their sexuality to themselves. Uh, that that won't change, but that's for personal reasons. Not for legal reasons. [00:06:00] Yeah, so, yes, it's become a much more relaxed society, on the other hand, because it's easy to be gay now and we don't need social organisations, uh, that are exclusively gay. The gay world is changing in such a way that it's sometimes quite hard to keep some social organisations going. They die because they're not needed so much. And [00:06:30] but in their place, different sorts of organisations are starting up. So and that's one of the things about this function function here today. It's interesting to see the variety of different organisations that are needed and how different they are from what they were a few years ago. Like back in the seventies, it was all about socialising and meeting people. Now it's about activities and, uh, what people do with their lives. And we don't have to be [00:07:00] secret about socialising anymore. Yeah.

IRN: 945
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_in_the_making_jevon_wright.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004383
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089677
TITLE: Jevon Wright - Queer History in the Making
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Jevon Wright
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Caitlyn Jenner; Community Law (Wellington); Gay Line Wellington; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Human Rights Act (1993); InsideOUT Kōaro; Jevon Wright; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Naming New Zealand; National Library of New Zealand; Palmerston North; Queer History in the Making (2015); Tranzform (Wellington); Wellington; archives; communication; community; discrimination; funding; gender; gender binary; gender dysphoria; gender expression; gender identity; gender nonconforming; genderqueer; health system; history; homosexual law reform; human rights; identity; identity documents; intercultural; intergenerational; internet; intersex; misgendered; peer support; rural; social; trans; transgender; youth
DATE: 12 September 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: An interview with Jevon Wright from Naming New Zealand and Tranzform, recorded during the community event Queer History in the Making.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi. Um, I'm and I'm here with naming New Zealand and with transform here at the event. I'm here because we were invited to come. And I think this is a great event with a lot of really key people, both intergenerational and intercultural, and just getting everyone in the same room is really spark a lot of cool ideas. Tell me what? What is naming New Zealand, so naming New Zealand is a brand new organisation. Um, and the idea is that, uh, if you're a transgender gender queer [00:00:30] gender, non conforming into sex youth, it can be quite hard to update your identity documents, even though that is a huge step in your process of becoming who you are. So naming New Zealand is looking at fundraising and helping these youth update the documents. Why is it so hard? There's two main issues. One of them is the cost. If you're if you're a youth, it it can be quite difficult to raise 100 and $50 just out of nowhere. And the second is that, um, especially for trans youth, there are a lot of issues, particularly [00:01:00] with the, um, the medical, the medical system about how to about the requirements that you have to go through, and we're also working on hopefully getting those improved. So where did naming New Zealand come from? Uh, it was spawned over a coffee. Really? Uh, with, uh, amazing and Rosie from Community Law. And they wanted to do something small that would help the community in some way, and and it just sort of snoble from there. We've had fantastic response from the community. It fantastic. Just so much support. [00:01:30] So So what? What are you working on at the moment currently? Our next. We've just finished our first round of grant applications, so we had, uh, nine people apply, and, uh, two of them. Unfortunately, we're outside of Wellington, and we're focusing on Wellington at the moment. But the other ones we were able to fully fund with all the the donations that we raised from the last couple of months. So we're in the process of going through the first round of actually seeing what it's like to help people with their identity documents. Um, once you get to identity document change, [00:02:00] it feels like you actually are who you are. And all that time before that you're actually, it feels like you're you're pretending like you're living in this fake line. Once you have your identity sorted out, it just feels so powerful. You don't get mis gendered. You don't get misnamed. You don't have as much difficulty applying for jobs or at schools or uni or banks. Things like that. Um, it's incredibly important. And I I like to think that it's like you don't need to update your documents if you're, um if you're gay or lesbian. So why do you have to update your documents? If you're [00:02:30] Trans, you're also here with, uh, another group transform. Can you tell me about that? Yeah. Transform is a group that's been around for eight years. Um, and it's mostly been a support group that meets every two weeks for transgender youth. So 18 to 30 ish, um, and the main focus has been on support. So just getting everyone in the room and people just meet each other and realise that we're all just normal people, just with different sort of issues. Um, And over the last year, we've been looking at doing social events, or we've been doing shop trips, and we've [00:03:00] hired out Kilburn pool, which was really, really cool, Um, and doing social like coffees and going to the zoo, things like that. So how long have you been part of transform? I've been facilitating for about a year now, and I originally went to transform about three years ago, and it was just It was one of the best decisions that I made to actually just be around other people and realise I wasn't alone in this journey. So over that three or four year period, have you seen a change in the the kind of atmosphere? [00:03:30] I mean, I mean, uh, other issues from three years ago. The same issues that we have now are the world's getting better, like it's improving all the time that there's still a lot of issues like, um, we still have no actual support from the medical system. There's no department for trans people at the Wellington Hospital. Um, there's no support for gender queer non-binary people. Uh, but things are slowly improving slowly improving. Like nowadays people, especially with people like Caitlyn Jenner. People sort of know what [00:04:00] trends might be, whereas before it was this totally foreign concept we're coming into the, um, 30th anniversary of homosexual law reform. And I'm wondering, can you think I mean, how How far do you think we've come from? 1986 which seems a long, long time ago. Um, and and what are the kind of issues that we still have to kind of address in New Zealand? Well, I can only really speak mostly from my perspective, as a trans person and [00:04:30] as a gender queer person is that transgender people still are the most, um, discriminated against. It's still incredibly common for us to have jobs, uh, to be ridiculed again. Um, and I think like the trans community is where the gay community was 30 years ago, for example. So there's still a long way to go and and where do you start? I mean, what what what what are the what are the the the issues that that you kind of want to see addressed first? Well, 11 thing that immediately comes to mind is that gender identity still isn't [00:05:00] recognised as, uh, our rights in New Zealand, like your sexual identity, is is seen as a right, but not your gender identity. And a lot of people are like Well, that's OK. It's It's sort of the same thing, but it's not. If your gender identity is not male or female, then that should be protected, and more support from the medical system would be fantastic. So a lot of groups here are working towards improving the support for trans people. Gender, queer people. One of the things, uh, completely different from, uh, 30 years ago is is things like the Internet [00:05:30] and and the way we kind of connect to each other. Um, how do groups like transform? And in naming New Zealand, I mean, how do they connect to communities? Yeah, it's been a big focus since I've been involved over the last year. It transformed to get a lot of our stories online because it it might be easy for some of us to come along to our groups on when, on every every Tuesday, every Wednesday and discuss things there. But there are a lot of people, especially online, especially in, uh, rural centres that don't have access to that sort of things. So [00:06:00] I've been doing a lot of focus on getting our resources online our stories online, Um, and so our transform website has been accumulating these sorts of resources and guides, and that's been really, really helpful, I think. And in New Zealand as well, Like, we're not just doing fundraising to help youth. We're also trying to generate and create documents to help youth update their documents themselves. And by doing that, we're making it more more accessible because it'll help other trans people if they're not you to update their documents as well. So, yeah, doing a focus [00:06:30] on, uh, online resources has been really, really beneficial. And do you find you get much communication from from people outside the the main centres? Uh, yeah, we've been connecting with groups, and a new group has just started out in Palm North, which I'm extremely excited about because that's where I grew up. Um and yeah, it's slowly connecting all the groups together, but also making sure that each group still remains its itself because we can't just have one group for all gender nonconforming people, because we [00:07:00] all have different issues. So keeping the connections together, but also doing our own things is very important. So today we are in, uh, the National Library and, uh, the lesbian Gay of New Zealand have organised this kind of show and tell why is it important to be at some an event like this? It's fantastic to see what all the other groups are up to. Forming connections, uh, getting ideas from other groups. Like, um, we've been communicating with inside out. We've been communicating with, um, the gas. We've been communicating [00:07:30] with, uh, a gay line a little bit. And just forming those connections, I think, is strengthening us as a whole and also sort of refilling our buckets with our our strength and our inspiration.

IRN: 944
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_in_the_making_kawika_and_bernard.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004382
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089676
TITLE: Kawika and Bernard - Queer History in the Making
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Bernard Lee; Kawika Aipa
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bernard Lee; Borneo; Chrissy Witoko; Chrissy Witoko Memorial Trust; Conrad Johnston; Hawaii; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); InsideOUT Kōaro; Kawika Aipa; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Naming New Zealand; National Library of New Zealand; Queer History in the Making (2015); Rainbow Youth; Tranzform (Wellington); United States of America; Wellington; archives; civil unions; coming out; community; history; homosexual law reform; in phase; marriage equality; parents; public affection; public display of affection (PDA); transgender; youth
DATE: 12 September 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: An interview with Kawika Aipa and Bernard Lee, recorded during the community event Queer History in the Making.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi. My name is I'm from Hawaii, and I'm here today to support this movement. Um, and hopefully gain more education about New Zealand. Queer, I would say, um and it's just really exciting to be here. Thank you. I'm Bernard Lee. Um, stop it. I'm I'm from born raised in Borneo. Uh, but I spent some time in the States in Austin, Texas came back, was here [00:00:30] since, uh, came down to Wellington to study. I've been in Wellington since 2010. July is my It's been five years, So love it. Second home. So, uh, describe for me where we are and what we are a part of today. Um, we're at the New Zealand National Library in Wellington. We're in an organisation. Well, we're in a place that's organised by the gangs. Would you say that? Yeah, that that's correct. And it's [00:01:00] a wonderful place where communities get to share their stories and history and how how they got together, how they formed and the history behind each community and group. Um, basically sharing their their how they how they got together. Yeah, love it. So there's quite a few groups here today. Um what what have been some of your favourite kind of stalls or or speeches that you've heard. I really enjoyed the youth groups that came out. Um, they're [00:01:30] definitely representing, and I think it's really great that a lot of youth are being educated about these kinds of access tools that they have now. Um, Lakesha earlier said that she wishes that there was information for her when she was younger. Um, but I think it's great that there's a huge youth representation here today, just kind of sharing their identity and where they are and who they're helping. And it's a great message. I agree with, uh, Walter as well. Um, the youth are [00:02:00] from transform Rainbow Youth inside out. Um, naming new are are all form well, all organised by the youth themselves and from such a small group. That actually does a lot, which is astounding, which is really, really informative, and especially what they said about this transgender community and having their information out for the public and for the medical [00:02:30] side. And we well, we want the youth to have access to all those informations correctly as well. Um, and the lack, another group that actually touched my heart was the, uh, the Chrissy Trust Memorial, which shared an in depth understanding of what the older generation had to deal with in the past. When when a person dies, if the families are not supporting [00:03:00] them, um, it's hard. So I get from that. It took, uh, well, it it gave me an understanding of how, um, seniors and the older generation had to go through and is dealing with at the moment which, um, which sort of touched my heart? Yeah. So we're in 2015, and we're coming towards the 30th anniversary of homosexual law reform in New Zealand. Both of you, from coming outside of New Zealand [00:03:30] coming into here. What do you think? Um, it's like for rainbow people in New Zealand. Compared to say, um, uh, other parts of the world. Well, I'm from Hawaii, and we've had civil union, which isn't necessarily a legal marriage. We've had it for a while since the early nineties, I believe. Um, but my husband and I just got married this year, and I think it's I think it's great coming from Well, I would say air quote America. Um, just [00:04:00] because I feel like there's a freedom in Wellington, especially to walk around with my husband and be affectionate instead of having to withhold my affections in public. I know there are certain parts of America that don't appreciate or don't acknowledge freedoms for all. And I think in New Zealand, especially with this with the passing of the law in 1986 and I think it's just really fantastic. And I hope that they continue with [00:04:30] the movement and open more freedoms and more doors for queer individuals. Um, 1986 was the year I was born. Exactly, exactly 1986 was the year I was born. Next year I'm going to be 30 Exactly like the, uh, how long has law reform has been in New Zealand? So, um, I'm excited. I'm excited. And, um, it is It is really [00:05:00] It's heartwarming to know that I could I could be in New Zealand and be myself and coming out for me wasn't that fruitful or eventful? I guess. Um, and being when I arrived here, like, five years ago, that's when I came out to my mom, and it was it was She still has, uh, ideas of me [00:05:30] being in a phase. I guess so. Being away and being myself here kind of makes it worthwhile. And knowing that I'm celebrating my birthday as along with the law, reform makes it so much better.

IRN: 943
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_in_the_making_des_and_john.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004381
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089675
TITLE: Des and John - Queer History in the Making
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Des Smith; John Jolliff
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; 2010s; A. J. Marsh; Amanduh la Whore; Aotearoa New Zealand; Des Smith; Devotion (Wellington); Elaine Lethbridge; HIV / AIDS; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); John Jolliff; Kim Davis; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Lesbian and Gay Fair; National Library of New Zealand; Newtown School; Onslow College; Queer History in the Making (2015); School's Out (Wellington); Wellington; Zealandia; archives; bullying; community; elders; history; homophobia; homophobic bullying; homosexual law reform; individual; magazines; marriage; marriage equality; minority; posters; public affection; public display of affection (PDA); relationships; vigilance; visibility
DATE: 12 September 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: An interview with Des Smith and John Jolliff, recorded during the community event Queer History in the Making. Des and John were one of the first couples in New Zealand to have a civil union in 2005. They subsequently married in 2015.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: All right. Well, I'm John and my partner here is dead, and I'm absolutely delighted that this event is taking place. I really think it's important to New Zealand that a national institution such as the National Library can hold an event like that. I think we're very, very lucky. But, you know, the gay community and the lesbian community has worked to get this far, and the evidence is all around us. We're in a room now with lots of posters from the past, magazines from the past identifying the some of the struggles and the history [00:00:30] to do with HIV discrimination and so on. Well, we've always supported visibility. And this is a good example of visibility and awareness in our community, not just for gays, lesbians, but also for the world at large. And I think with the present climate of today, uh, where things are more open, but kind of sometimes it doesn't stay like that. And I think this is a great [00:01:00] help to I should never forget Fran during law reform campaign, talking about the two vs vigilance and visibility being absolutely essential. And I think those two vs remain as pertinent today as they did then. So we're in a room full of posters to do these Bring back memories for you. Uh, yes. I just looked at a devotion post. Uh, no, uh, devotion booklet over there with an article on me. And how many years ago? Yeah, [00:01:30] and, uh, yeah, quite a few. Uh, quite a lot of memorabilia. Yes. And, you know, particularly we were at the wedding of AJ and Thomas, and they're sort of showing up in this magazine that is here. And it's such a that, um Well, like most weddings or many weddings. Rather, um, that one fell apart. And, um, you know, in that case, we are no different from the heterosexual community. Just as vulnerable, just as fickle. [00:02:00] Perhaps I'm not sure if I've talked to you post your wedding at the Crary Sanctuary. How did that go? Oh, that was It was so good. We thought we might have another one. So the son in law said it was like a theatre from go to. And it was It was well organised food. Good company. We had a fabulous hostess and Amanda. She was absolutely stunning. And she kept the party rolling and entertained, [00:02:30] and the whole thing was an utter joy and very memorable. And, uh, it just forced us to have another 10 week honeymoon overseas. Where was the honeymoon? The honeymoon? Well, we started off in the United States, staying with friends, and then we went to Paris for three weeks, wandered around France, ended up in Spain, and, you know, as one does one we can, which was a lot of fun. Let's go [00:03:00] into that. A gay maker, You certainly are not at a minority there, which is important to see people guys walking down the street, hand in hand. I think there are a lot of us who are still finding that uncomfortable here, despite the progress we have made. So so do you guys walk hand in hand in the in the street? No, we have not really. But everybody knows who we are around where we live. And it was interesting because [00:03:30] the local, uh, college Onslow College had a sex talk and a gay guy came along and talk about sex. And apparently we were told by our neighbor's son, who was in the class, that they mentioned our names and everybody in the class knew who we were and who got married on May the first. It's really interesting about those public displays of affection. I mean, do you see many Rainbow [00:04:00] people in Wellington holding hands or or kissing in public? Uh, I think you see the sort of kissing on greeting or farewell, but, um, in terms of an amorous sort of approach to kissing, no. And we don't see the holding hands, women seem to be able to do that. But then I think women have always done that, whichever, uh, persuasion they may be, whether heterosexual or lesbian. There's not a lot of heterosexual people who run around hand in hand. So I think if you balance it out, it's not not [00:04:30] too bad. It's not critical. Should we walk down now? Down the street, hand in hand? Are you talking to me or Gareth? Just just checking Now, directly behind us, I see a poster for the Gay and lesbian fear, which must bring back some nice memories. Well, yes, we're absolutely astonished to find and to realise that next year is the 30th anniversary. And of course, there was so involved with with Pauline and James and setting up the first [00:05:00] one. you know, if it hadn't been for you three, I guess we wouldn't have a third. It was the second fear. When I asked Pauline and James if they were to help out with another fear, as it was a success, but they weren't interested, and we had to pay everything in advance. So out of my own money, I paid everything and set it all up in a new town school hall with a bit of a battle with the headmaster. Unfortunately, but there's a woman called, uh, Elaine Lethbridge, [00:05:30] who used to be in charge of the hall, and she knew that we'd give him one good fear. And she told me that she went on and she ripped hell out of him and said to him, These gays and they're going to have their fear no matter what you say. And I didn't know all this was going on, but she was a great supporter. She was She was not. She was a, um She was a married mom. She had a couple of kids, and but she always made sure that we had that fear. [00:06:00] So we're in 2015. So we we we're coming up to the 30th anniversary of not only the fear but also homosexual law reform. How have we gone? Do you think over those 30 years has it improved? And are there things that we need to improve? I would believe that it's a great deal easier. I think it's easier for young people, uh, to recognise who they are and to be open about it because we have such things as schools out when we have, [00:06:30] um, you know the opportunity for younger people to learn about what it means to be gay, as Des was mentioning earlier. And, um, I would hope that we get past the bullying stage there. There's still problems in schools. There are still, um, homophobia. There's, uh, stereotypical perceptions of what it means to be going, but we get there, and but I guess there will always be some people who don't understand or don't want to understand that there is a difference in the community. But it's very [00:07:00] it's really quite a minor one, except for the individuals involved, because what are we? We're just an ordinary suburban couple getting on with our neighbours and our lives, and it's very ordinary to be going in some ways these days, which is nice. It's interesting when some religious nutter, like that woman in America who wouldn't issue licences, uh, and the general, the community at large find that abhorrent, and so they should. And this, I can see happens more [00:07:30] now I do guiding at the, uh, because my first love is about nature and trying to protect the environment. And there's, uh, one other guide who, when she hears people say, Oh, you know, the gay guide and she really rips into them about say, you don't say the heterosexual guy, why are you saying the gay guide right now? This is visibility. It doesn't worry me, but I. I rather [00:08:00] like the fact that there's someone there who's camping. Uh, my cause is not the totality of des personality. That's the only problem is that when you know this is happening and you referred to as the gay guide, then you know you've got to do a good job because you're letting down a community, and that does put pressure on you. And but this I think being in a minority [00:08:30] will always be part of, uh, our existence, isn't there? A perception of being in a minority is, in fact, is a strengthening factor that we've had to cope with. Things have to understand things and to understand ourselves better than some other people understand themselves. Everybody's a minority. In some ways they were all individuals. You're right.

IRN: 942
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hugh_young_homosexual_law_reform.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004380
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089674
TITLE: Hugh Young - homosexual law reform
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Hugh Young
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Des Smith; Fran Wilde; Helen Young; Heterosexuals Unafraid of Gays (HUG); Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Hugh Young; Kim Saffron; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); National Library of New Zealand; Pink Triangle collective; Queer History in the Making (2015); Wellington; archives; bisexual; chinchilla; closeted; community; gay; history; homosexual law reform; letters to the editor; media; newspapers; opossum; press release; radio
DATE: 12 September 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Hugh talks about working with HUG (Heterosexuals Unafraid of Gays) during homosexual law reform. This interview was recorded during the community event Queer History in the Making.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, my name is Hugh Young. I was, uh, in 1985 when Fran introduced the bill. I became very interested. And I was at that time closeted, uh, to not only to the world, but to myself, for reasons which I don't need to go into. Um, so when des Smith formed a a Wellington branch of hug, I went to the first meetings, [00:00:30] and there I met Kim Saffron, and we be and because, uh, I was involved in media, she and I wrote a lot of press releases for hug sometimes to, um, sort of as prescribed and sometimes of our own bats. Hugh, what was hug Hug heterosexuals unafraid of gays. At that time, I still considered myself bisexual. And since there was no bisexual unafraid of gays I I and so I wore the hug badge. And I know [00:01:00] some of the community considered me a hypocrite, but it I felt I was wasn't doing the community any harm. And, um, I, you know, and working for I was doing some good and still it made a lot of friction right throughout the campaign because I never didn't yet consider myself part of the gay community. So, um, Kim and I made these press releases and distributed them, and, um, we [00:01:30] we'd write them at her place, and then I or maybe at my place, But in a way, we would sort of race around the city, hand in hand, put dropping them in the news papers and radios, and, uh, press gallery and, uh, very few ever got picked up, but occasionally we might see a paragraph we'd written, and we feel our one big success was when some MP. Proposed an amendment that the fire brigade, [00:02:00] the police, the armed forces and it was something completely irrelevant to the gay issues. Should be, um um uh, exempted from homosexual law reform. We said, Well, what next? Bus conductors. And we called it the Shiny Buttons amendment and that got into the paper. So how how did the media respond to the, um, pro [00:02:30] campaigners? Was it? I mean, were they hostile? Were they, um what, you know, did they tell the media the media tried to be balanced, as they put it, and so they would tend to try to give equal coverage. Um, but of course, when one side is right and the other is wrong that that's not good. Uh, we we felt we didn't get a fair hearing. We felt that the anti law reform campaign has got more than they deserved. [00:03:00] But then we would say that, wouldn't we? I wasn't very objective of it. I didn't keep a big clipping file. I wrote a lot of letters. I wrote a lot of letters to the paper, and I always signed them. Young and Helen Young, who was in charge of the concert programme. I said people kept. She didn't actually complain because she supported law reform, too. But she said, People keep coming up and say, Have you been writing letters to the paper? And I said, [00:03:30] I think I told her we should do what Bertrand, Lord Russell and Russell of Liverpool once did and wrote Write a collective a joint letter to the paper saying, Dear Sir, neither of us is the other Now. Today we're actually standing in the National Library, and we're at the, um, event, the show on television. So I've got quite a number of things on display, including, um, pink triangles. And so you you were involved in the pink triangle. No, I wasn't part of the Pink Triangle Collective [00:04:00] I wrote. I probably wrote letters to the pink triangle. Uh, but the my particular involvement with the pink triangle is that, uh, the we can we can see the issue itself here of, um, May June 1987 which dates it. So it's after law reform. So I was out of the closet to myself, to my friends, and, um, I was gradually coming out [00:04:30] to the wider world and in my role as a consumer radio programme producer, I, uh, took a took a to task one of advertisements in Pink Triangle for Adelaide chinchilla. The second best thing you've ever felt and what I took objection to was you'll agree. The old name Adelaide Chinchilla says so much more for its plushness than a possum. And [00:05:00] of course, this fur is a possum. And but that was the only clue that it was. And so I took them to task for passing off a possum as some better fur. And the advertiser was so angry at this that he withdrew all his advertising from the pink triangle. So the Pink Triangle collective got very angry with me for hurting the gay community. I felt I was protecting [00:05:30] the gay community from being ripped off, and some of the collective said, Uh oh, but nobody would Seeing that advertisement would think that it was anything but a possum. And yet a letter appeared in the pink triangle from somebody complaining about the cruelty to the poor little chinchilla, whatever they are. And Hugh, can you describe for me the the the image that goes with the, um oh, yes, well, it's It's rather a hot image I. I rather actually actually liked it at the time. It's this blonde man who's [00:06:00] clearly not wearing anything with, uh, you can see the hair in his armpits and he's lounging and gazing at seductively at the camera while wrapped up in this, um, very actually probably quite comfortable fur.

IRN: 941
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_in_the_making_tabby_besley.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004379
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089673
TITLE: Tabby Besley - Queer History in the Making
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Tabby Besley
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; BBC; BBC World Service; Barbados; David Beckham; David Cameron; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); InsideOUT Kōaro; Joyce Layland LGBT Centre (Manchester, UK); Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); National Library of New Zealand; Out in the carPark (Wellington); Queen Elizabeth II; Queen's Young Leader award; Queer History in the Making (2015); Shift hui (2015); Tabby Besley; United Kingdom; Wellington; activism; archives; bullying; cafe; community; community centre; discrimination; diversity; family; gender identity; health; health care; health system; history; homophobia; homosexual law reform; hui; media; peer support; rural; school; sexuality; suicide; support; trans; transgender; twitter. com; visibility; youth
DATE: 12 September 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: An interview with Tabby Besley from InsideOUT, recorded during the community event Queer History in the Making.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm Debbie Bisley. And, um, I'm at the National Library, Um, for the kind of queer community show and tell event. So we've got heaps of awesome, um, community groups here doing little stores and talks about what they're up to. And so I'm here with inside out, um, National Youth Organisation, Working with, um, young people of diverse sexualities sexes and genders and schools and communities. Um, yeah. So I think the last time we talked about inside out, um, was at was it at Cuba, or was it about six months ago? What has happened [00:00:30] between then and now? Um, yeah, Things have really kind of been growing and taking off for us, which is really exciting. Um, yeah. As you know, I got the, um, Queensland leader award, which was really awesome, because that's, um, given us a lot of kind of publicity and lots of media attention and kind of helped us get our brand and what we do out there and, um yeah, creating lots of more opportunities. Um, we ran our national in April, which had kind of 100 young people from all different parts of the country come along to which was um, yeah, [00:01:00] such an incredible event. And we're hoping to make that kind of annual. And, yeah, I've been up to lots of stuff. So you've attended quite a few youth who over the years has the kind of atmosphere changed over that time. I mean, are there things that kind of stand up to you that have changed? Um, that's a good question, I think. I think the ones we're doing now, uh, they're also organised by young people, which I think is really cool. And it kind of makes a difference in the way that the content and the workshops and what we're learning about, um, in those spaces [00:01:30] is really relevant to us. Or sometimes, um, if they're not organised by people directly in that community, they can be a little, like, not quite the right context. Um, but I'd say that still still for me when I went to kind of my 1st 15 the the environment and the kind of the family community feeling that you get when you're in those spaces is yeah, it's the same. And such a beautiful time. Yeah. You mentioned the the the the The Queen's Award. Tell me about that. How How did that come about? Um, [00:02:00] yeah, I was nominated for the Queens Young Leader Award, which is, um, given to 60 young people from different Commonwealth countries who are kind of leading change and transforming lives in their community. Um, and it involves getting a trip to the UK where you get to meet the queen, um, and take part in a residential programme. Um, you also get to do an online course at the University of Cambridge for a year. Kind of around leading change. Um, And you also get a personal mentor to help with your kind of work and organisation for the year. Um, which is? [00:02:30] Yeah. Been really awesome. And so you were the only person from New Zealand that that that that one? Yeah, I was the only person from New Zealand and the first because this is the first year that they've run this programme, which I think is going to go for four years. So, um, not only did you meet the queen, but you also met a whole lot of other people. Tell me about those those days in in London. Yeah, it was incredible. I think for me the highlight was just meeting all these other amazing young activists from around the country working on such different issues. Um, there was one other young person who got, [00:03:00] um, an award who lives in Barbados, who is also doing work, um, with our rainbow community. And so it was really interesting to hear the challenges that, um, she's facing in her organisation. And, um, they're working in a very different context to New Zealand because it's still illegal to be homosexual, and they're trying to get that law stuff changed. Their group is a lot more about advocacy and kind of just that visibility. Um, as one of I think the only or very few organisations like that in their country. Um, but through being visible, they're getting a lot of [00:03:30] people coming to them for support. Um, and there's no support services available, so they're having to, like, look at whether they start to do that kind of thing as well. Um, yeah, it's amazing to kind of Yeah, get to learn about things, um, in different cultures, um, to and the struggles that people are facing, Um, but also to talk about kind of LGBT, um, rainbow issues with with people. Like, Did you meet David Cameron as well? Yeah, I didn't. Unfortunately, there was a lot of questions I didn't get to ask him. [00:04:00] My my question about, um, the LGBT community. Um, but one. Yeah, One thing I was kind of worried about going is because there's people from the majority of people were coming from countries. Um, where it is still, um, criminalised that they would maybe be some homophobia and the other award winners. Um, but actually, everyone was completely the opposite. They were, Yeah, so supportive and wanted to come and tell me what it was like in their country and that they were ashamed of their laws [00:04:30] and stuff like this and just yeah, having that support and kind of it was really great to see that in younger generations, that is changing. And so, hopefully in time internationally, the stuff will really start to change. So who was the person there that inspired you most? Can't think of one person. And I think just all of those other young people there were so many of them doing incredible things, so that that whole just meeting all of them and hearing their stories. Lots of them have overcome, um challenges to be in their position and [00:05:00] doing what they're doing. So that was really amazing. Um, outside of the residential week, because I stayed a little bit longer in England, I got to visit, um, an LGBT centre and cafe, Um, in Manchester. That was really inspiring for me, because just to see the setup that they've got there, um, they have a run. A cafe that, um, is mostly run by youth volunteers who are getting work experience. They go all their own, like fruit and vegetables on an allotment and also volunteer run. And they've got, um, lots of services and groups that work out of the community centre. Um and [00:05:30] I've I've often thought about something like that, um would be so amazing to have in New Zealand. So, um, to see that physically working in practise was really inspiring. And to meet the people kind of working there, and, um yeah, so that's something I'd really love to kind of bring to Wellington at the moment. I will probably never get to meet, um people like David Beckham or the Queen or or or the Prime Minister. of the UK. Um, what is I mean, how How did you feel on that day? Like meeting Her Highness. It was pretty overwhelming and surreal. Like, especially we had [00:06:00] a really full on day. So we had, um yeah, meeting with the prime minister. First thing, like breakfast. Um, a visit to Twitter, A visit to BBC world. Um, and we only had half an hour to get ready before we had to go to the palace and kind of do a little walk through of what we were going to do. Um, And so and of course, everyone was quite jet lagged. So it was just Everyone was so tired and we were just like, What is going on? Are we Is this real like it? Yeah. Did did feel quite yeah, quite like a strange experience. And then after they all outside to, like, do [00:06:30] TV interviews and stuff. And it was Yeah, it was kind of hard to capture a moment to just breathe and realised that it was real. And we were in that situation. So did you actually get a chance to talk to her? Um, yes. When I received my award, we went up on a time, and she asked what work I do. So I said that I work in the, um Lisbon Gay, bisexual, transgender youth community in New Zealand. Um, and she said, Oh, how wonderful. Um couldn't quite tell from her expression, if that was really how she felt. I think, [00:07:00] um, yeah, not too sure what her opinions really are. But I guess nonetheless, this was one of the first times that the queen has had anything to do or recognised any kind of stuff within the LGBT QI a plus community. Um, so I guess whether or not her personal feelings are supportive, um, even doing that is a really great gesture. Um, especially for other. I guess Commonwealth countries that, um, see something? I guess So. We're in 2015, and we're we're, um in [00:07:30] starting the the 30th anniversary of the homosexual law reform. How do you think? Uh, it is in New Zealand now for rainbow people. And are there things that we can be improving on or looking at? I think we we've come quite a long way in a in a small time, and it's, um, really awesome to see the changes that have happened, and we're very lucky and progressive compared to a lot of places around the world. But, um, in spite of that, [00:08:00] I still feel like there's a huge, huge road ahead or a lot. Yeah, a lot still to achieve, um, for quality. And I guess, safety in our community, Um, especially in the transgender community, Um, especially in our youth communities. Um, for me, I'm most passionate about that kind of bullying and work in schools because every young person has the right to be safe at school. And that's really not the case at the moment. Um, young people in our community are five times more likely to attempt suicide. And, um, yeah, just [00:08:30] facing discrimination. That is really not OK. And, um, yeah, so a lot of the work that inside out does is trying to trying to change that and trying to make schools pay attention and realise that that is going on under their kind of head, I guess. Um, yeah, and I think health care is another area in New Zealand where we still, um, need to do a lot of work to make that accessible. And, um, for people to get the support that they're kind of entitled to, especially in the community. Um, it's so [00:09:00] so hard for people to access, um services and find people who are trained and understand what they're going through, Um, who can get them the help that they deserve. And when you get into rural communities, especially, that just gets so, so hard. And I think it really is kind of a matter of people's lives and safety. So, um, those are just a couple of issues. I think we have a lot of work to do on yes.

IRN: 940
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_in_the_making_new_zealand_aids_foundation.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004378
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089672
TITLE: New Zealand AIDS Foundation - Queer History in the Making
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Anne Holleron
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 2010s; Anne Holleron; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Christchurch; HIV / AIDS; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); InsideOUT Kōaro; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); NZAF Ā whina Centre; National Library of New Zealand; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Queer History in the Making (2015); STI; School's Out (Wellington); Wellington; acceptance; archives; celebration; community; counselling; history; homosexual law reform; imagery; msm; safe sex; sex; sex education; sexual health; stigma; support; takatāpui; testing; visibility
DATE: 12 September 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: An interview with Anne Holleron from the Awhina Centre, New Zealand AIDS Foundation. This interview was recorded during the community event Queer History in the Making.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name's Anne Holloran. Um, I'm a counsellor at, uh, the offender centre in ZAF. And, um, we're here with a stand today with, um, a couple of counsellors and, um, educators, Um, just to promote, um, uh, safe sex and to talk a little bit about what we do at the offender centre. Um, so, you know, we work with, um, we're funded to work with MS M population and to support, um, um, people with HIV and their families. Um, we have [00:00:30] a counselling service. Um, and also, um, we do a lot of testing. Um, HIV testing and ST I testing for men and women. So we're open to anyone. Yeah. So on your display table, I can see a whole lot of postcards, and they kind of look a wee bit historic, because this is this is your 30th anniversary. It is exactly Yeah. So, um, the foundation has put out, um, a set of postcards of, um, historical posters, and, um, they they're quite wonderful images. There's a gorgeous photograph here, [00:01:00] and, um, I I don't know the names of these men, but they're both actually aerobics champions and that, you know, it's quite a gorgeous campaign. Um, there's there's one here, um, of which people think is actually San Francisco with all the beautiful colours and ribbons and balloons. It's actually, um, it's actually New Zealand. So, um, you know, it kind of just shows the history of, um HIV and safe sex promotion that the foundation has been involved in. What's your favourite postcode? Um, [00:01:30] I really like this one. This is a beautiful image of, um, two Maori men with a gorgeous cloak and beautiful moko, which is obviously female. Um, and it's the lovely background of the sea and the hills. Uh, and the the line of strength comes from knowing being young, Maori, gay and aware. It's really beautiful. So can you talk to me a wee bit about the imagery in some of the postcards? Because it seems to have obviously changed over time. But what [00:02:00] what do you think they've been going for? Um, I think there's a villa visibility around sexuality, um, which has always been a part of gay culture and, um, sort of embracing that as, um um, without judgement, but sole and acceptance, Um, and, you know, kind of being able to, um, be overt about, um, the history of AIDS and, um, the pain and suffering and the lack of knowledge and information and and the fact that it is, um, that there's stigma involved as well. So I think there's a kind [00:02:30] of a refreshing sort of honesty around. And all of these postcards, um, celebrating and being real, um, around sex and masculinity and, um, bodies and risk. So how is the AIDS Foundation? Uh, celebrated this year? Um, we've had, um, uh, events in each of the centres. So, um, in Christchurch, Auckland and Wellington. Um, the Wellington event was a little smaller than the Auckland one and held at our office in Willis Street. But, um, but there was a lot of heart there, and, um, we had, [00:03:00] um, people speaking and, um, share some food and drink and some water, and it was a really nice event. And so what drew you into, um, HIV aids counselling? Um, I've always wanted the opportunity to work with, um, a lesbian and gay bisexual, um, client base as a counsellor. Um, I came out when I was a teenager and quite a conservative, um, town in New Zealand and couldn't wait to get out. Um, and so having worked, um, in different agencies, I really [00:03:30] jumped at the chance of, um, working with, um, uh, people close to my heart. And after applying for the job twice, I got it. So now, now, now they start with me, and And there's also, um, people with a lot of passion, Um, and who work really hard and really dedicated. Um, uh, that that I have the benefit of working with. So just on a personal level, um, this year is, uh, coming up to the 30th anniversary of homosexual law reform in New Zealand. Um, [00:04:00] do you have any thoughts about, um, you know how far we've come If we've come that far, and And what are some things that still need to be worked on? Um, I think living in a place like Wellington, um, it feels like, um, sexuality is not an issue. Um, but I think we're supposedly supposed to be one of the high, highest educated, um, cities in in New Zealand. And, um uh, so, um, a lot of knowledge we take for granted. There's, like, you know, the lack of judgement, the celebration, [00:04:30] not just acceptance or, um, toleration of the celebration of, um, of being being gay, Being queer, I think that doesn't always philtre out into all smaller areas of New Zealand. Um, I really admire the work that people like inside out and schools out do Was was absent in the, um eighties, when I was or nineties when I was at high school. And I think those that's making a major change because it's the you know, it's the young people coming up, Um, that that need to be experiencing something different. Um, and open [00:05:00] communication is is what's kind of needed. So, um, I do think there's a lot of work still to be done. Um, and we have a luxury of living in a place like Wellington that we get to enjoy, um, enjoy a kind of, um, somewhere that celebrates being gay. I think it would be nice to see that in little places in Wellington, in New Zealand, too. Yeah.

IRN: 937
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_in_the_making_wellington_frontrunners.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004377
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089671
TITLE: Wellington Frontrunners - Queer History in the Making
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alan Kwok; Steve McVey
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Alan Kwok; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asia Pacific Outgames; Auckland; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); National Library of New Zealand; Proud to Play NZ (2016); Queer History in the Making (2015); San Francisco; Steve McVey; Wellington; Wellington Frontrunners; archives; community; history; homosexual law reform; human rights; marriage equality; running; sport
DATE: 12 September 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: An interview with Steve McVey and Alan Kwok about Wellington Frontrunners - a rainbow running group. This interview was recorded during the community event Queer History in the Making.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So I'm Steve McVey. I'm Alan, and we're here with, uh, front runners. Wellington is a social group of people who are interested in running, uh, is open to LGBT. Um, anyone who is interested in running or fast walking, and we meet on a regular time every week to just, like, come together and have a good Yeah. So we run, um, every Thursday evenings and Sunday mornings and Sundays [00:00:30] after the run. We normally go for brunch, so it's quite a social fun thing. And, um, we sometimes train as well for different events around the country or even international events, sometimes as well. So so were you training for the art games that was going to be in Auckland? A. Yes, we were. So a number of our, um, team members at the front runner groups are training for the out games in Auckland. And now that that is not happening What? What [00:01:00] are you Are you are you taking part on the, uh, the, uh the other event? There is actually a a running event. Instead of having a timed event, it's a social run in Auckland. So I think a number of us will be going there? Yeah, we have a really kind of strong cohort of, um, competitive runners, I would say, Yeah, but, um and so but, you know, that's not too competitive. It's also quite social, but, um, so a lot of there's a There's a core group of the runners who do lots of competitions. And so, because [00:01:30] of the strong interest in the Auckland out games, there's still gonna be a fun run attached. So, yeah, I think it's a five K and a 10-K. Yeah. So why running for you guys? Oh, running is great, you know. Do you Have you heard of the runners Rush, you know, is this after you run, you are just get so excited and you are like, you know, bright. Everything is like colourful, you know? So I think it's good to go for a run. I do for exercise, for keeping myself fit and also, you know, running because it's outside. [00:02:00] It's kind of fresh air, and also it's very cheap. It's very affordable, and, um, it's and running. Running in a group is different to running alone, and it becomes something else. And so I like the social aspect of running as well. So we're in 2015, and we're coming up to the 30th anniversary of homosexual law reform in New Zealand. Tell me, um, what do you think has how is it now, in 2015. And are there things that still need to be achieved for rainbow Communities? [00:02:30] Oh, well, I think there's the changing needs of Rainbow Communities is, um means things will always need to be addressed and renegotiated, you know? And, um, there are lots of things that, uh, factors involve and that from technologies of meeting people to, um the way that we see ourselves now our history and also where we're going. So, um, lots of things need to change or, um, need to constantly be looked at. [00:03:00] Well, I am not from New Zealand. I'm from San Francisco in the US. So we just passed. Exactly. So our Supreme Court just passed the legislation for gay marriage. So, you know, we look up to New Zealand as one of the leading countries, you know, for gay rights. So, um yeah, I have no comment on your question because I don't know enough. So looking at gay marriage I mean, what does gay marriage mean to you? All wedding cakes and lots of dancing? That's the only reason [00:03:30] I'll get I'll get married and all the presents. Yeah, well, I think I think, you know, there's, you know, especially for people my age. I, you know, there's been there was Well, I don't know, You know, there there was a not a resistance, but a kind of a shutting down of the idea of marriage for a long time. And, um, since it's been on the table or discussed in the last few years, then it's not. It's it's it's it's less about marriage, [00:04:00] but about having the rights of everybody else. That's a great answer. Yeah, I have nothing to add to that. It's great having both of you here. Is there anything you want to ask each other? Well, nothing. We haven't already, but Wow, what kind of radio station is this? Ok, go ahead, ask me anything. Steve, have you had a look at the front runners website or front runner's face page? Alan. Yes, I have. It's fantastic. And I encourage [00:04:30] everyone to look at it and sign up, you know, and like our front runners Web page on Good point. And we have a calendar of events and, you know, I think it's so important, you know, if we are not competitive group, we are a social group, you know? We're here to have fun, you know, have coffee, you know, and just have a good time. Good old fashioned way of meeting other people like you.

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PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_in_the_making_panel_discussion.html
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TITLE: Panel discussion - Queer History in the Making
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VOICES: Jac Lynch; Kassie Hartendorp; Linda Evans; Paul Diamond; Tony Simpson
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; ANZ Bank New Zealand; Aotearoa New Zealand; Aroha Harris; BOX Events; Box Oceania; Cherryl Smith; Dorothy Kate Richmond; Ellen Faed; Frank Sargeson; Gareth Watkins; Gay-TMs (teller machines); Jac Lynch; John Key; Julie Glamuzina; Kassie Hartendorp; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Linda Evans; National Library of New Zealand; New Zealand Broadcasting Corporation (NZBC); Pat Rosier; Paul Diamond; Porleen Simmonds; Queer History in the Making (2015); Rainbow Wellington; Resistance: An Indigenous Response to Neoliberalism (book); Robin Duff; Stonewall (film, 2015); Stonewall riots (1969); Tony Simpson; Toss Woollaston; Tīwhanawhana; Vern Keller; Walter Benjamin; Wellington; activism; archives; blood donation; bullying; capitalism; civil rights; classism; closeted; collective action; colonisation; coming out; communication; crime; culture; decolonisation; defiance; facebook. com; feminism; heterosexism; heterosexist society; history; homophobic bullying; human rights; intergenerational; internet; marginalisation; mental health; newspapers; power; pridenz. com; queer straight alliance (QSA); racism; relationships; research; resistance; school; social change; social media; writing; youth
DATE: 12 September 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Audio from the panel discussion on queer history, held during the community event Queer History in the Making.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'd like to introduce Paul first. As as the chair. Paul Diamond is going to come in, and then, um, each of the panel members will introduce themselves. Paul Diamond. Uh, everyone, welcome to this panel discussion on Queer History. Um, just before we hand over to the three speakers, uh, just to give you an idea of the brief that they've been given about what to cover, um, in the session today, three questions, um, that they're going to be addressing What do they see [00:00:30] as significant areas for those working in queer history to look at, including community researchers as well as people working in academia. Secondly, what interesting or unexpected sources have they used in their work or their activism? And then, lastly, what material from LGBTI Q activities and lives today would they want to see preserved for the future and repositories like, um and other and the Turnbull Library and other places. So, as Jack said, they'll all be introducing themselves. But this is the speaking order. First will be Tony Simpson, then, [00:01:00] uh, Linda Evans and then Casey. And then there'll be questions, as Jack said it after all of them have spoken. So we're handing over first of all to Tony Simpson. Please join me in welcoming Tony well, and hello. And, uh, I'm glad you could come along today. I'm a social historian and the author of 16 books. Uh, but I was also for my son's 10 years chair of [00:01:30] Rainbow Wellington. Uh, which I see has a very, uh, comprehensive display here today, and I'm pleased to see it. So of course, that means that I'm a queer man. Hard. The German writer and critic uh Walter Jaen observes in one of his essays that what we have in history is not the past, but the study of the present illuminated by the past. And he goes on to remark that what we have of that history, furthermore, [00:02:00] is not only not the past in full, but what he calls its fugitive remains. So where we begin, our elimination depends on what we have retained as fuel to light the way Sometimes the potential for that illumination is quite deliberately and supposedly snuffed out. I'm always reminded in this context of the story of the Englishman who was conducting a walking tour of Ireland and he lost his way. So he called in the cottage [00:02:30] nearby and asked the resident Irishman which way he should go to get to Dublin, to which the Irishman applied. But if he was setting out for Dublin, this was the wrong place to start. Sometimes we deny ourselves an understanding of our present by refusing to begin our journey at certain points in the past, we simply don't go there. And if we try to, there are plenty of people to block out of our way and to suggest that there's an officially sanctioned [00:03:00] other path that we should be travelling instead. That's the truth that applies to many areas of our journey in history. When I was a boy growing up, we had it almost literally drummed into us that New Zealand was, in the favourite phrase, the most successful multiracial society in the world. It wasn't until I was an adult that I discovered that some of the people who lived here, let's call them Maori for the sake of argument didn't necessarily share that [00:03:30] view. Similarly, with the notion that we were and are an open and egalitarian society in which everyone gets a fair go, you can make a case for that. Of course. Uh, although you might find people who don't agree with you again. Some Maori people, uh, or quite a few women past and present, who would also feel this was not necessarily a fair go society and and had not been in the past. Not to mention, of course, the lesbian, gay and trans communities. [00:04:00] In fact, let's especially not mention when we're talking about our history in the past the lesbian, gay and trans communities in the same breath as we talk about our history. Until I became an adult, I also had absolutely no idea the two people I admired tremendously. The writer Frank Sarge and the painter toss Williston were both gay, although they were muted about it because you could go to jail in those terms in those times for simply being yourself [00:04:30] and and some of you may know very nearly did when he was dobbed in by a sexual partner who was under pressure from the police. So so much for the fair go society. I found that out myself the hard way when I went to work for Radio New Zealand in the late sixties and early seventies. It's called the NZ BC in those days, and I was one of those people pioneering the use of oral history techniques to make historically based documentary programmes. Uh, something which later turned [00:05:00] into the Spectrum series. I made two almost immediate and important discoveries. The first was that there were certain taboo subjects in the past that you were not allowed to explore. I made the mistake, for instance, of producing a programme about the shooting in extremely questionable circumstances of 50 Japanese prisoners of war at Featherston in 1943 which most New Zealanders still don't know about. By the way, it is not the sole topic of conversation [00:05:30] in the bars in which I drink, but the second was even more important and much more positive. There are many people out there who have never formally studied history in their lives, but who nevertheless have a very clear idea of the pattern etched by those lives on the broader community and the meanings that imparts not only to themselves but in a curious reciprocal relationship to the society in which they live. Often those meanings have very little or even nothing to do with [00:06:00] the official meanings and identities that we impute to ourselves. But to find out what those unofficial meanings might be, you have to conduct a search and a rescue operation. That's why is a very important resource for historians. Now. Some of you may be aware I am currently engaged in an exercise in exploring the nature of the gay male culture of resistance, which existed prior to 1986 and the decriminalisation [00:06:30] of homosexual acts between consenting adults. I know quite a lot about it, of course, from personal experience. No, obviously, uh, although I was in the closet for most of it, which in itself is part of that culture of defiance and resistance. But because it's no longer required, it's fading from sight and recollection. Cultures do if they don't serve a purpose. I'm interested in ensuring that it's nevertheless preserved [00:07:00] by recording the recollections of those who were participants. It's beginning to develop, of course, a degree of urgency, uh, because I found, as I found when I found when I compiled my old history of the Depression of the thirties, the Sugar Bag Years, published in 1974. When I was working on it, there were plenty of people stood around who experienced it, and I could draw on them. But within a decade, many of them had actually died. They were no longer available, and it would be impossible [00:07:30] to write that same book today. There's almost nobody around who remembers. Certainly, as an adult, the depression of the thirties. It would be, uh or rather, to say, we need to watch out that the same thing doesn't happen regarding the gay culture of the pre 1986 era, As Beaman colleague once said, In history we listen to the voices of the dead. But a precondition of that is we have to make sure those voices [00:08:00] are available before we can do so. And that, I hope, answers the third of the questions I was asked to address. Namely what material from LGBTI Q activities and lives today would I want to see preserved for the future. We need to ensure that we have the directly recollected and recorded documentation of that experience through the Oral History Archive here at the Turnbull Library and in other places. How did it feel? We need to have a record [00:08:30] of to be a breathing living gay man in an era of gay suppression. But my project goes beyond that because culture and history are not static things. They are processes, and I'm also recording both the point of transition itself. That's to say how the law change came about and what role people played in that and what that has meant for existing gay lives. And equally important, of course, what it means for the lives of those gay men who have grown up in a society [00:09:00] in which the law is permissive rather than oppressive. Has it in fact, made any difference or have both The oppression and the cultural resistance simply reinvented themselves in new forms, as often happens in processes of social and cultural change. Well, that leaves me no time to address the other two questions I was asked to address, but I'm sure others will readily fill that gap. [00:09:30] Um, you, some of you may have seen Anita Brady's name advertised as being on the panel. Unfortunately, she's sick today, so hopefully, um, at one of our other ends events we can hear from her because I think her research into, um, same sex kissing in public is pretty fantastic. and it'll be great to hear more about it. Um when she's Well, um, I also [00:10:00] wanted to just say quickly, um, acknowledge, um, talking about queer history in the making for people who've died in the last little over a year, who've really contributed to queer history in this country. Um, Pauline Simmons are very strong in the Wellington area and lots of community events and in law reform and lesbian organisations. Pat Rosier. Probably better known in Auckland, But, um, really influential Vern Keller, who was the librarian at the AIDS Foundation. Huge, um, amount of work in making, [00:10:30] um, information about HIV aids available. And, um, Robin Duff who? Um a founder of Christchurch Gay Liberation, a supporter of the archives, has contributed material and recordings. Um, and so all the absence of all of them is is really important to note. Um, I guess, uh, I I agree with a lot of what Tony said, and I really like the fugitive remains the quote that he gave that talked about, um, what we're using and what we're looking at as being fugitive remains [00:11:00] because, um, there is that kind of thing of looking at stuff that's not necessarily on the surface, plus also the fact that things can so easily be lost and things can deteriorate. Recordings can deteriorate, photos can deteriorate so you don't have them anymore. So it's kind of fugitive in both in both the metaphoric and the literal senses. And I guess when I think of the themes of queer history of the histories of all of the communities that are represented here today, it's more [00:11:30] like how you approach it than, um, certain particular themes. So it's full of and and many of these things, um, are, um, present in all kinds of history. But I think just a bit more so In our cases, it's full of complexities, contradictions. We really need to read closely to, um, get clues to work out what might have been going on. We need to use our imaginations as well as close research, and we need to [00:12:00] have the courage to ask questions and to take risks to name things. Um, and also always to, um, think about the context, because in a way, in all of our, um, movements and communities, we give each other context. And so just, you know, focusing only on the personal, which has been really important and will continue to be, doesn't kind of reflect those networks and intersections and the context we [00:12:30] can give each other. So this sort of obsession about evidence of lesbian or gay or um, trans identities and activities and is is something that I think has really held us back. And I think we have to look with a bit more imagination and breadth at, um, how we interpret our communities and our individual lives, the kinds of sources that have been important to me. Um, in both my activism and research have been quite varied. [00:13:00] And that's one of the things I think that's important to look everywhere for possible signs of it. In my case, I'm looking particularly for lesbians or same sex women who've had same sex relationships. Um, anywhere should be grist for our mill. Any kind of archive, um, is is is worth looking at, uh, and and you might remember, if you came to the, um, launch of Julie Goner's book. It was almost entirely constructed from public sources. Um, that was Mr [00:13:30] X, um, where we had the launch at the end of last year. a lot of, um, she read newspapers really closely. She haunted the births and deaths places and, you know, she all of the directories of streets And she used public services to the public sources to the And that's a good example of just being thinking from the perspective of someone who is a lesbian who is queer, who's gay, who's Trans, who's bisexual or intersex thinking [00:14:00] from your perspective when you approach the sources. And one of the, um, just to mention one thing that I particularly love, um, as a source is a letter written in the early 19 hundreds, um, from one of the Richmond sisters to her sister, um, Dorothy Kate Richmond, who was travelling in Europe, uh, a companion and possible lover of Frances Hodgkins. Her sister wrote to her to let her know that she had seen, um, at a public event Blanche with her new lady husband. [00:14:30] Now she wasn't very flattering about about the lady husband who is German, and she didn't have a good impression of her. But that's amazing, you know, there there is evidence of identifiably women in same sex relationships at public events in Wellington early in the 19 hundreds. So it's just those little blimps, you know, that you can get ideas from, um, expand out and and kind of, um, put together the sort of patchwork of, um, what could have been [00:15:00] and what might be, um, one of the thinking of the things I would really like to see um, happening in the research in the future. I agree with Tony. We still haven't done enough about the cultures and communities pre, um, gay liberation lesbian liberation feminism. I think that that we really need to do more in depth research in those areas here and in particular, um, the whole there's the strengths of the cultures and the imagination of [00:15:30] the culture and the, um vivaciousness of those cultures. But also there are the punishments, and there's been very little research possible into the mental health so-called treatments that people received. There's not been a lot of research into what happened when, um uh men in particular were convicted. Or, um, girls and boys were put into care, Um, because of so-called inappropriate or sexual activity. So I mean, I think there's a lot of areas still to look at both, [00:16:00] um, the ones that are probably a little bit easier to surface and ones that are much harder to get out. The information. Um, the 19 seventies ends up getting overlooked often, and which is interesting because because of the emphasis on the eighties and law reform and that. So I still think it's important to do work on that. I think, um, whether we've had a, um it's important to to look at how things are working for young people and also for old people, because, you know, there's now more and more old. [00:16:30] Um uh, lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender people. How is it for them? And I'm talking about, you know, as being old. What's that like, What's the experience like, How do you just get overlooked, Do you? Does everyone go back to assuming heterosexuality unless you can somehow, um, confront that? So the whole the whole question, I think of, um, one of the buttons in the display is How dare you assume I'm heterosexual? You kind of need to keep that going [00:17:00] right into the future, because that sort of heterosexual supremacy and heteros is still always assumed about a person, unless you can prove otherwise. And how do you prove otherwise? If you are not in a relationship or you use our relationships to prove that often it's, you know, easy way, um, talking about archiving for from today for tomorrow. And I hope we'll have more talk from you about that. Um, we still So we want to make sure [00:17:30] we have evidence and traces of, um, all of these our communities, um, our personal lives, our political lives. What? We enjoyed our cultural lives. And of course, those are increasingly digital. So that is quite a challenge for us to make sure we keep gathering the physical items, but to work out ways of gathering the digital. And that's where we need you to help us by looking after your digital stuff. So when you take photos when you, [00:18:00] um, send emails when you write when you set up a facebook page, um, or a website, um, finding out how to look after it in such a way that it's going to be able to be kept for the future, to be used in the same way as the newsletters and posters and so on from the past are able to be used. Um, so um and, um, Ellen's gonna talk a little bit more about that, but there we have some information at the library, too, to help people with that. But, um I mean, it's important to know that for your Facebook page, only you [00:18:30] can download it. No one else can. And if you're an organisation that has a Facebook page, no one can download that. So all the stuff that's on that page can't be sorry extracted and preserved. So, you know, it's just the issues about all the things that the evidence of our lives Now, how can we carry them into the future? [00:19:00] Um um good everyone. Um, So my name is Casey, [00:19:30] and I'm yelling now so everyone can probably hear me. Um, and I just came to give a little bit of a bit of a from, I guess, a youngish perspective. I'm always really careful about saying that we're young because everyone gets, like, really offended when I make it clear that they might not be young anymore. So I'm not intending that. I'm just saying, you know, I'm here. Um and I mean, like, I got I got asked about this a couple of days ago. So, [00:20:00] I, I don't have, like, a really big thing. But I have a really beautiful brainstorm. And if anyone wants to come and look at the brainstorm later, then by all means do so, um so I guess from my perspective when I'm not coming here, I don't consider myself a historical expert. Whatever that may be. Um, and my experience comes from a few different things, and that is, um, growing up in a place without knowing or having any access to LGBTI Q histories. Um, it's from [00:20:30] being mixed race and having no access to my cultural histories growing up. Um, it's from working alongside young people. Um and I guess their journeys around their sexuality or their gender. It's from being really opposed to oppression and to exploitation and being grounded in, I guess, political change that really challenges our status quo. So I'm talking about capitalism, [00:21:00] and I'm talking about colonising structures that continue to enforce social hierarchies, which is still the reason why we have to keep gathering here like this. Um, yeah, and I also have have had a degree in the past, but I made a conscious decision to move away from the academy because I thought that, um I was really interested in making those knowledge that take place in ivory towers more accessible to people who are not able to access those. [00:21:30] So that's kind of where my heart lies. And I guess, um when I was thinking about the the main, um, ideas around this I think two things kind of stuck out for me. And one is the process of recording and gathering histories and information, and the other, I guess, is disseminating it and and putting it out there and making it accessible. And while I was thinking about this, I happened to also be reading this book An indigenous response to neoliberalism. I'm such a nerd. Um, but [00:22:00] I was actually just reading an essay. I'm gonna do a dramatic reading for you all. And this, um, this essay was called Cultures of Collecting, and it's by Cheryl Smith. And I actually thought it was a little bit relevant to this. So I'm just gonna mention this. This passage kind of stuck out for me. So this writer says collectors view the world in a particular way before the action of collecting begins. The person has designed the pretty, [00:22:30] the object of desire, the resource and their minds. They have composed collections of missing pieces. They have devised the search and the seeking. The external world becomes a hunt, a trigger of recognition that shapes and manifest their desires. In this world, indigenous peoples live being the collected, the named, the classified, the Commons, the public domain, the protectors of the desired. The [00:23:00] obstacles, the remnants, the fascinating, the reviled, the disappointing. The occupiers are myriad of projections and illusions, so Oh, thanks. Thanks, Hubby. I just thought it was quite interesting that happened to be reading that at the same time. And I guess what really stems from them is just thinking. I guess about his not as as being just so contested, right? Like, I mean, that's why we're all here, because we know that [00:23:30] actually, our histories have often been excluded from, I guess, mainstream histories. That's why we have to have. That's why we have to hold these events. Um, and I guess I'm really interested in that process of how things become. History makes a historical moment. Who gets to define what the historical moment is because, actually, it's always reflecting our existing power structures that are already in place. So I think that very process [00:24:00] is I find it very interesting. And I think some of the things that kind of sparked up referring to my all over the place from Brainstorm, I guess just really acknowledging that there are so many multiplicities. I love that word just saying I'm so excited to get to say it. There's so many multiplicities of experience in terms of what this class is being like and under, around over beyond the rainbow. And I guess it's really cool when we're able to come together, but also knowing that, [00:24:30] you know, we have this experience where these histories grow and develop and gather and meet and talk and take action and speak and hear. All of this kind of stuff happens in so many different places, and a lot of those aren't just photographs or they're not just minutes from a meeting or stuff like that. So I just really wanted to acknowledge that and the hidden spaces that actually those histories are always growing. So I'm quite interested [00:25:00] in that. And I guess also, uh, yeah, I guess who gets to name or define what is happening. I mean, as an example, when we think about, um, a NZ bank GT MS. Is that a historical moment? Like many might say that. And what does it mean when our historical moments are created, manufactured and mediated through multinational corporations? Like what does? What does that mean for [00:25:30] our histories? For our communities? Um, kind of something that's a little bit similar, I think, is the systemic erasure and silencing of certain voices and certain histories. So has everybody heard of like the new Stonewall movie that's coming out or is already out? Yeah, there's a few hands, and I thought it was quite interesting, so I haven't seen it. So I'm one of those people that's just going to talk about something that I haven't seen. But many blogs on the Internet tell me that [00:26:00] apparently, when it was talking about the Stonewall riots, there was a, um there was a white sis gay man who threw the first brick, and it was like this big moment, oh kind of thing. And it's just it's just astonishing because actually, it was trans women of colour who were at the front of that riot and it wasn't a white, this gay man who threw that first brick. But now that history has been reinterpreted [00:26:30] and is taking on those existing power structures once again and now us young people are being given a picture that I don't think is really true to what really happened. And I think it's really erasing. So I think that's kind of another example of yeah, just why we have to be quite mindful of how we are collecting and representing those, um, those histories. It's not a neutral process. As we all know, um, and the other [00:27:00] thing I think there is knowing that we have, I guess it's one thing that I find really difficult and frustrating as kind of like being in marginalised groups and really feeling like you have to be the nice or respectable or polite queer all of the time. And it's like, Oh, we got to do that because that's how we're gonna get, you know, change or whatever. But also, I really don't want change if it doesn't acknowledge like the messiness and the complexity and the monstrosity [00:27:30] and all of those really sometimes deep, dark, unsettling parts of who we are. And I think sometimes there's this move to gloss over the and just act like, you know, we've We're all just kind of like waiting for a nice piece of our pie or scraps at the bottom of the table. But I think I think we can be more complex than that and not have to silence ourselves and paint a picture that doesn't really exist. Um, in terms of what I [00:28:00] like. Also, I just really want to acknowledge that, um, in terms of histories and whether they are being held as well. So I mean, really thinking about how we can make some of these things accessible. I was talking to a friend, um, last night, particularly about the role that social media has played within a lot of our younger ones, kind of coming to make meaning of ourselves and of others and of our queerness or our sexuality and how social media is kind of seen as like, uh, the devil most of the time. But actually, the [00:28:30] first people that I came out to were were miles and miles away on the other side of the world, because they were the only people I felt I could talk to, um and knowing that we have some really richness in our histories there. And how do we make those histories continually accessible? I'm really thankful for spaces like, because actually, being able to come together inter generationally and learn from each other is just a process that I think is absolutely necessary. So I'm thankful for that. And I think a lot of like indigenous knowledge and indigenous practise totally gets [00:29:00] that, um, in terms of the future stuff, I don't have all the answers in terms of being like, this is what we should collect. And now we should do this because, yeah, I don't have all the answers to that. But I do know I do want to speak to a couple of projects that are being worked on. So, um, one thing that there's, um it's actually a bit of a self promo, but for example, so here at the back, I mean, one of the things that we're thinking about is making sure that we [00:29:30] are creating spaces for indigenous and queer people of colour and who are young. But also it's open to anyone. It's actually not just about young people because we know this stuff needs to be intergenerational. And I'm just gonna quote some of those, um, the three, like our Sorry if I'm going over time, Jack. Um, I won't be too much longer. I promise. I I've just got a couple of thoughts. Nick. Man. Um, so the first is boosting voices and visibility for our Oceanian living [00:30:00] and loving under over and beyond the rainbow Navigate ancestral knowledge to activate and support decolonization, gender and sexuality work that imagines and creates futures inclusive of MVP, FA, FF, LGBTI, Q plus peoples and their families. And I think that's like a really, like That's a real historical process that is going on here in this and a couple of things that we're working on is creating [00:30:30] a website that is a space where people can share their stories and come together and speak from that position of being indigenous or queer people of colour and also, um, working on building a little community library as well, Which is it's about just gathering resources that are really important and heart filling to our community so that they can physically be there and have access to those so really interested in how we collect how we, um, how what our histories are and also how [00:31:00] we make those relevant and accessible to our younger generation. So thank you. Well, for those, um, addresses now there's a wee bit of time for questions. Does anyone have questions? While your Allen's got a question, it's not so much a question as more [00:31:30] Who's collecting digital in town. If we're not collecting our own digital materials, nobody else is going to do it for us. Um, I'm going to talk this afternoon about my 20 year archive of the lesbian Wellington website. And yes, I've already collected and saved most of the files. Thousands of Web pages. Um, but who else is doing it? I've started a little archive of lesbian library photos digital, and I'm feeling my way on what is the best practise? And can other people who are [00:32:00] interested in collecting digital or doing it? Perhaps we can get together and have a little focus us out a focus group, a social focus group, working out best practises and talking to about how we're going to get the stuff into. Are there others who are interested come and talk to me down at the store later or come to my talks this afternoon. Thanks, Allen 11 sort of digital resource I was going to mention was the, um, [00:32:30] incredible archive. I guess I'd call it a digital archive that Gareth Watkins has put together. Um, Gareth can give you the exact name the Pride new Zealand dot com um, collection of interviews, which is remarkable because many of them have been transcribed. And it's a really good Gareth has done a great job of, um, getting the material out there and making it accessible. And lots of people here have been interviewed for that. And if you want to know more about queer history and things, that's a really good place to look. Did [00:33:00] Yeah. One thing that occurred to me, um, to ask was to pick up on this idea of defiance and resistance that was mentioned by Tony and and, um, well, actually all three of the speakers. How does activism work in this? This sort of age of integration, if there is this kind of freedom to just hang out at the garden centre like everyone else on a Saturday morning if you're not at the National Library. But how does that work and where do where are those sort of sites of resistance and push back at the times when you need to do that? So [00:33:30] just wanted to ask you three. I mean, how does activism work? And where are the sites where it might be happening? Is it the queer groups at university? Or is it in hotbeds of activism like La La games or or where, where can Where can it happen in this time of integration and freedom? It can happen anywhere, of course. I mean, quite a lot of work is done, for example, by Rainbow Wellington, which, although it's a Wellington based uh collective, does a lot of national work. Uh, in respect of human rights, civil [00:34:00] rights, individual, uh, problems of one sort or another I. I see that they're picked up and oppressing the campaign about blood, for example, at present, and and a lot of people are completely unaware that if you are gay, you can't give blood. Uh, except under very restricted circumstances that for many years might as well not have been there because it meant you couldn't give blood at all, so you can pick it up anywhere and and run with it. But you also have to be aware it seems to me of the other [00:34:30] side of the coin, because I heard somebody mention the A NZ, uh, and their loud public commitment to to pro gay and lesbian human rights policies and the in the workplace. And I always laugh when I encountered that, because less than two years ago, I had to take a case to the Human Rights Commission on behalf of an employee of the A NZ bank because they would not stop his fellow employees from [00:35:00] treating him badly and discriminating against him in the workplace because he was gay. So if you tangle yourself up with multinational capitalist institutions and think that you're going to get your gay or lesbian rights there, then I suggest to you there are better places to pursue that. I think, um, sometimes it is. You're right, Paul. It is kind of hard to recognise where activism is happening. Um, when you know there are big social changes [00:35:30] afoot in the way the whole society operates, and when some huge technological change, like the whole um, you know, uh, ways of communicating really affect how you organise people and how you, um, how you make that feeling of collectivity. And also, when we've had this kind of society that's been totally promoting of the individual and not at all promoting of the collective and collective action and and people recognising what they share with other people as well [00:36:00] as you know, what divides them. I mean, I think in some ways it still happens in similar ways. Like as Tony says, there's there's kind of civil rights and and problems at work to be active on. Um, there's the bigger picture of confronting the fact that it's still basically a hetero, sexist society and doesn't look at how you know, racism and classism are interwoven with that. And so that's kind of like something where you have to take the initiative and work out a way to do it. And then I think the other part of activism is, um, you [00:36:30] know, creating our sort of community life, enjoying ourselves. Um, you know, we've got to have that as well because, um, doing the other political activism is really, um, engaging and stimulating. But it's also really important to connect with each other. Awesome question. Um, I think about activism a lot doesn't mean I have something coherent to say on it, but I think, yeah. I mean, the thing is is that I truly believe that resistance is always happening, however small that [00:37:00] it may be, Um even if it comes out in kind of larger moments every now and then and that I think as LGBTI Q people, um, I think that a lot of us really understand the interconnectedness of our struggles as well. So, um, you know, I think there's a lot of there's a lot of spaces where I've seen, you know, our communities that are out on the front and being really ready to be able to talk about stuff, even if it's not specifically about our LGBTI [00:37:30] Q. So I think that's really awesome in terms of where activism happens. I mean, yeah, I I again, I, um, to talk about what you said about the collective versus the individual and how it is really difficult in our political environment to be able to conceive of really, like collective organising. That is really effective. I mean, one of the biggest market is that I've been on Been on was around the, um against, um, land, Uh, the sale of assets a couple [00:38:00] 2 to 3 years ago. And John Key just kind of didn't even bat an eyelid about it. Do you know what I mean? And so I guess I'm really interested in ways that we can make sure that we keep keep envisioning what collective? A collective fight that looks like, um and but tailoring it to our times as well, I guess. Um, And also I think the thing is is that I like activism is happening all over the place all the time. I mean, I've been lucky to meet people from some really amazing queer Strait alliances [00:38:30] and feminist groups that are in our high schools and are just like, yes, we know that, you know, there are problems of the world and we're so ready to do something. But we're not quite sure about where to start. So can we get a little help? So it's kind of like there are people who really had this gut reaction to knowing that we need to, you know, fight against a lot of the stuff that we see in our society. But, um, I think that really, um, that partnering up between between generations is just so key. So yeah, Thank you. [00:39:00] Unfortunately, we're out of time, but, um, I think the panel will be around If people have got further things, they want to catch up with them. Listening to them talk. I was reminded of something that Harris said at the Maori Book Awards this week and accepting an award for a book, um, which won the history category award. And she said she's inspired by that book because it shows that, uh, history writing from Maori is one of the best decolonization devices she can think of. And I think we can take a leaf from that book as well. And, um so all that remains really is for me to [00:39:30] ask you to join me in thanking these three for inspiring us about the whole process of queer history writing Kilda.

IRN: 936
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_in_the_making_introduction_and_opening.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004374
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089668
TITLE: Introduction and Opening - Queer History in the Making
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Jac Lynch; Kevin Haunui; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Jac Lynch; Kevin Haunui; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); National Library of New Zealand; Queer History in the Making (2015); Tīwhanawhana; Wellington; archives; community; history
DATE: 12 September 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Kevin Haunui and Tiwhanawhana introduce and open the community event Queer History in the Making. The event was organised by the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand and hosted at the National Library of New Zealand, Wellington on 12 September 2015.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Kilda. Um, Kevin, Honey is my name. I'm the chair of the Trust for the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand. And today we have a community event, uh, could show and tell. And it's about celebrating community, I guess. And raising, um, discussion about what is history and so forth. And where did the idea come from? The the idea has come from [00:00:30] actually over the last couple of years, has been looking at establishing a Queer History month and so having events during that month of September or October to, um, uh, look at issues that we might be able to raise with our community about celebration of of history. Um, I guess it's a celebration of history. Um, understanding who we are. Uh, what are the things that actually bring us together? And I guess [00:01:00] the the common factor however we choose to to identify ourselves is that we are, uh, uh, our people or communities, um, who have been either marginalised because of our, uh, differences around sexuality and around gender, or else we're being generalised, uh, so that our differences aren't apparent. Uh uh, in our society [00:01:30] today, So I think it's a it's a great thing for us to to explore that notion of why it is that we do have a community, uh, and then to to understand what we do with those differences. Um, and it is certainly about celebrating it. But it's also about discussing those differences and that distinction that, uh, that marks us as and we ourselves as a as a community. So this event is is about, um, highlighting [00:02:00] to our community group groups out there. You know what part they actually play? Uh, in that, whether we are conscious of that or not, um, as a community, as community groups, um, but not only community groups, I think, also individuals out there that do the same thing. So in my mind, um, that's the That's a real underpinning message, I think, um, from a point of view from the Lesbian and Gay Archives New Zealand point of view, it's an opportunity [00:02:30] for us to outreach and to involve ourselves in the community. Uh, and hopefully to provide some relevance to our community, but also to get them to think about well, why are we here? And how else can can this, um, group look after the interests And what are those interests and things like that? So I think it's a It's a really, uh, interesting, interesting space and time for us to be in. So, uh, as we celebrate the differences that we have within the [00:03:00] wider society as we celebrate the differences, uh, within our own society that that, uh, keep our distinctiveness. Um, I think alive. I was also talking to someone the other day about I think, how it's, uh, useful for us to think about. How are all the things that are being archived around Wellington, whether it's in the lesbian and gay archives, whether it's in te Papa, whether it's in Archives, New Zealand, [00:03:30] whether it's in other institutions, how do we know what's out there and and how can Is this something that lay in, um, should be being, uh, should be considering in terms of some lens being applied to to highlight the resources or whatever it is that's out there, um, for our community to make it easier to access. Uh, the other thing I wanted to say also is that the, um in terms of our younger audience, our youth [00:04:00] audiences, uh, what do they see as the the issues for them. What do they want to keep for prosperity or they think should be recorded? And how should that be recorded? Uh, and then finally, how accessible is all that to everybody, whether you're younger or older, whether you're an academic researcher or just somebody interested in finding out about their history, how accessible is that information? And I think it'd be great to get some feedback, uh, during the day or [00:04:30] in response to this event, about those sort of issues. It's quite a It's a lot. It's a quite a broad issue, but I think it's something that, at least this event gives us the opportunity to think about. There are quite a number of groups set up, uh, in in the ground floor of the National Library, um, showing the diversity of the communities. Um, can you describe some of the things we're seeing so we can see the Overwatch? Uh, the defence force, um, community [00:05:00] group of of, uh, queer. I call it queer People. I can see a whole lot of, uh, sports groups, uh, setting up, um, rainbow Wellington front runners. I can see movie. Uh, outtakes. 2015 So the community that celebrates movies and stuff like that I can see also, uh, a number of groups from from the representing the lesbian side, so to speak. So the Armstrong and Arthur charitable trust, Uh, [00:05:30] I can also see advocacy groups such as W Wellington youth groups here. I can see, um uh, Maori, um, groups. Um, setting up here, there's a whole range. It's amazing the the diversity and the response that we've had, um, to to this event just to start off the event today, we're just going to have a sung in the form of a [00:06:00] um And then following that, I'll say a few words of welcome [00:06:30] [00:07:00] [00:07:30] [00:08:00] [00:08:30] [00:09:00] [00:09:30] mhm rush over to say, Welcome to everyone today to queer history in the making of show and tell [00:10:00] community event The thing that, uh, I think brings us together, uh, as a community, are those things that, uh, we either feel marginalised about so in terms of our sexual or, um, gender or our identity, our cultural identity or things that we are generalised about in terms of being made to be normal. And of course, those are the things that distinguish us because we are looking at those distinctions all the time. Today's event is about [00:10:30] celebrating, Um, the history that, uh, we have as a community to celebrate the diversity within our community, uh, to celebrate outside our community who we are. And, uh, on behalf of the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand. Uh, we welcome you to this event. Thank you very much. Uh, to all those community organisations that have come along today, close to 30 organisations have responded to this call. Once again, we [00:11:00] welcome you. So it's an opportunity to share uh, what we're doing. It's an opportunity, an opportunity to share what we think, uh, and it's an opportunity to celebrate. Um, And on that note, I just want to acknowledge, uh, the National Library, the National Library Public Services Programme for hosting us today. I'd like to acknowledge the Alexandra [00:11:30] Turnbull Library. Um, with whom the Lisbon and Gay Archives collection or collections are held by, um, I'd also like to acknowledge all the volunteers that have, uh, assisted us today in particular, um, the our colleagues from Mercer who have organised some volunteers to assist on that note. I think we've got a really busy programme. But I do hope you take the opportunity to to enjoy [00:12:00] the occasion, have a think about the occasion, stimulate some discussion in terms of where to what if all those things that are are really, uh, great things for us to be to be thinking about a, uh [00:12:30] yeah. Come on [00:13:00] [00:13:30] in. [00:14:00] Yeah, [00:14:30] [00:15:00] we're gonna hand you over to our master's, uh, ceremonies or mistress of ceremonies or MC. Uh, Jack Lynch. Uh, thank you, Kevin. Um, we've got a quite a busy programme today, and I hope that all of you think about actually staying for the whole day because there's there's a lot going on a lot of deaths of, um, different groups here. 30 groups are here. A few few more tried to squeeze in, but I think they might have to [00:15:30] wait till next year. It is that, um yeah, get in quick. Sort of, uh, one of those events, and it is a very special event for us. It is, in fact, queer history in the making that we've been able to come together in the National Library like this. Um, my experience of us all getting together like this is more, um out in the park. And perhaps we're not so focused on our history, as in, um, having a lot of fun, which we will have today as well. Uh, we we have a If you've [00:16:00] got the programme being able to access the programme, there's a series of eight minutes. Let me stress eight minute presentations. Could be less, um, but not more. Uh, presentations from the different groups during the day. And, um, there's sort of a morning session the afternoon session, but, um, parallel to those, uh, presentations. Uh, Linda Evans and Roger Swanson from LA will be, um, presenting the curd collections, [00:16:30] um, in the programme room, which is sort of just behind us over here. The room itself will be locked when they're not doing those presentation presentations. So if you can make it to one of them that it's a similar presentation in the morning and then one in the afternoon. The first one that they're doing starts at 11. 20 it's about half an hour. The second one is about 1 40. So you've got two chances to have a have [00:17:00] a look at the presentations to to listen to Linda and Roger and have a chat with them about it as well. Um, really important archives for our communities to start collecting and centralising and protecting as well for the future. And I understand that if people have bought along things this morning, um, that they want to donate to that they can have a chat to Linda and, um to Roger, Linda and Roger can you put up your hands? And as if we didn't know who they were. But, you know, [00:17:30] just like making people put their hands up, Um, the I'd I'd like to, um to open. Uh, well, so my section of it is as MC around, um, thanking for bringing us together like this. This is no small undertaking savings, many, many people involved in it. And if you need to ask anyone during the day about what's happening on the programme, please look out for someone [00:18:00] who is wearing the gans, um, badge with their with their name tag on it. I'm gonna stop. Stop talking now, because we need to keep to time. And we've already gone a minute over. Um, so the we're we'll just set up, and then we'll be hearing from Karen uh, Harris and Adrian Girl or to to many of us, um, who are the chairs of out in the park, and they'll they'll be doing their presentation. So we'll just set up, bear with us. Don't go away or come [00:18:30] back soon.

IRN: 931
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/linda_evans_homosexual_law_reform.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004373
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089667
TITLE: Linda Evans - homosexual law reform
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Linda Evans
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; Alison Lash; Alison Laurie; Anti Springbok tour march (1985); Anti Springbok tour protest (1981); Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Australia; Bigot Busters; Bigot Busters conference (1985, Wellington); Bigot Busters rally (1985, Wellington); Bill Logan; Campaign for Homosexual Equality (CHE); Canada; Catholics United for the Faith; Cavaliers tour (1986); Chris Brickell; Clause 28 (Local Government Act 1988, Great Britain); Crimes Amendment Bill (1974, Venn Young); Crimes Amendment Bill (1979, Warren Freer Bill); Dale Jones; Dargaville; David Lange; Denmark; Equality Bill Campaign (1980-1983); Evening Post (newspaper); Fran Wilde; Gavin Young; Gay BC (Wellington Access Radio); Gay Task Force; Gerald Wall; HIV / AIDS; Holland; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Homosexual Law Reform Society; International day of action in support of homosexual law reform (August 1985); Kapiti Coast District; Knox Church Hall; Lesbian Coalition; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Linda Evans; Lower Hutt; Malcolm McAlister; Mates and Lovers: A History of Gay New Zealand (book); Member of Parliament; Ministry of Women's Affair; Moral Majority; Māori; National Gay Rights Coalition; National Lesbian Studies Conferences (1993,1995); National Party; Nelson; New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society petition (1968); New Zealand Labour Party; Nga Tamatoa; Norman Jones; Nuremberg Rally; Parliament buildings; Peter Nowland; Porleen Simmonds; QUILTED BANANAS (Wellington Access Radio); Salvation Army; Springbok rugby tour (1981); Syd Jackson; Tighe Instone; United States of America; Venn Young; Victoria Club; Warren Freer; Wellington; Wellington Access Radio; Wellington Gay Task Force; Whetu Tirikatene Sullivan; Women's National Abortion Action Campaign (WONAAC); Women's Refuge; abortion; activism; advertising; age of consent; anti lesbian; anti-nuclear movement; bigotry; church; civil rights; classism; collective; communication; crime; decriminalisation; discrimination; economy; equality; feminism; freedom; freedom of expression; gay; gay liberation movement; hate; health; heterosexism; homophobia; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; human rights; humour; individual; invisibility; language; law; lesbian; lesbian feminism; lesbian separatism; lobbying; march; media; meetings; mobilisation; morality; newspapers; organising; outing; pamphlet; police; politics; pride; protest; racism; rape; religion; safe sex; self defence; separatism; sexism; social; social change; sodomy; stereotypes; unions; violence; visibility; volunteer; women; women's forums (1984); women's liberation movement
DATE: 29 August 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Paekākāriki, Paekākāriki, Kapiti Coast District
CONTEXT: In this podcast Linda talks about being part of various groups that rallied in support of homosexual law reform.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So, Linda, you are involved in the activities leading up to homosexual law reform. Can you tell us how that came to be? Uh, well, I had been involved for many years. Um, I was, um, involved in the earlier days of women's liberation and, um, all through the seventies and on in lesbian feminism and also attended gay liberation and other kind of events, um, and and also, um, from [00:00:30] the then young bill, which was in 1974. I was involved to some degree. Um, So, uh, it's a kind of thing I would expect to be involved in because it had been, um, one of the issues I've been active on. Can you just recap for us what the then young bill was about? Well, um, that was the first attempt at law reform. There had been a petition in the late sixties, um, that the homosexual Law Reform Society had presented to parliament. [00:01:00] So there was a hearing of the petitions committee. So it wasn't the first time it had come up in parliament. Um, And then, um, in, um, 74 then young, who was a national MP. He, um, brought forward a, um crimes amendment bill to change the provisions relating to homosexual acts. Um, to decriminalise. But the age of consent would be, um, 20 or 21. I'm not clear about that. And that, um, had it had some support. Um, [00:01:30] I don't know that it was going to be successful necessarily. But one of the things that certainly derailed it was that Gerald Wall who was a Labour member of parliament, Um, for, um, he, um brought forward an amendment, which was, um, an amendment saying that, uh, basically outlawing, um, the provision of any positive information about homosexuality to young people. So really, it became [00:02:00] a whole freedom of speech issue. Um, and, you know, that was the kind of outrageous, um, provision that, um, Clause 28 was in England later, and we've seen in Russia recently. So And And that, um, caused a huge response not only, of course from, um, lesbian groups and gay liberation. Um, because obviously, you know, anything could end up in the hands of young people. You're not talking about Children. They were talking [00:02:30] about teenagers and everything. So really, it meant that there, you know, it was a complete reduction in our freedom of expression. But civil liberties and other liberals got very involved as well. And so there was a big debate around that. And at that time, I was just involved. Um, I'd just come back from living in Australia for a year, and I just, you know, went to meetings against the Wall Amendment and so on, So I wasn't sort of involved in organising anything. So how did you come to be involved [00:03:00] in the work that led up to 1986? Well, um, in at the especially at the gay liberation conferences that were held throughout the seventies, um, one strand was always decriminalisation. People, you know, had a much broader vision of what they wanted and the kind of social changes they wanted. Um, and the challenges to heterosexuality and hetero sexism and sexism and all of that, you know, was so decriminalisation was just one strand. And, [00:03:30] um, but when Warren Free decided to bring forward a bill, um, in the late seventies, for again for decriminalisation, but again with an unequal age of consent. Um, I was involved in lobbying against that. So lesbians and gay men from the National Gay Rights coalition, um lobbied against the unequal age of consent both times that Warren Free, who was an MP from Auckland from a labour MP, [00:04:00] um, attempted to bring the bill forward and both, you know, Warren and Young and that had good, you know, personal reasons for bringing the bill. And so it wasn't that it was just that they weren't prepared to go that extra bit and say, you know, we should be equal. And so, um, that was quite a big thing about um saying, actually, we don't want it if it's not equality, because we'll be stuck with it for a long time. It'll have lots of other implications. And one of the factors that made [00:04:30] lesbians get a bit more involved and certainly me, um, was that, uh, another MP called Dale Jones, who, um, was a national MP at that time later, came back as a New Zealand first MP. He said, whatever we if it showed any chance of going through, he would introduce an amendment to include lesbians. Uh, at that time, the only provision that affected lesbians was, um, when girls under 16 women over 21 that was, uh, you couldn't you That could, uh, a charge could be brought [00:05:00] against the woman if the woman got involved with a girl under 16. Um, that was the only act specifically, you know, charge that specifically affected women. And but he said whatever ended up being for men, he would bring an amendment and that women would be included as well. So that was a big biggie for us. And we certainly were not going to say we'd go along with anything like that and and that lesbians would suddenly have an age of consent and it would be unequal. And that would mean kind of [00:05:30] jettison. Jettisoning young lesbians and lesbians were really almost invisible under the law at the time. Yeah, and we were affected by, um You know, a lot of people thought we that lesbianism was illegal as well. And and we certainly were affected by things, but, yes, we didn't. There wasn't actually a legal provision apart from that one. And apart from the other ones, you know that we were able to discriminate on the grounds of, um it was not clear whether you could use that against lesbians to [00:06:00] you could, um, landlords to Could discriminate in other situations, People could be discriminated against. But, um, the other then then what happened is there was, um uh, uh A bill called the Equality Bill, which was prepared and promoted by gay men from Auckland. And they they did go for an just across the board age of consent. Um, and they were also trying to do other things like, um, remove rape the word rape from the statute book and have a crime across the board, you know, various sexual assault. [00:06:30] Um, uh, charges, which was something that he, you know, there has certainly, over the years been talk of, um, sort of decriminalising the crime de de genders. The crimes act in other ways. And so, um, they put that forward, and I think they were the They contact Fran Wilde about that bill, and but But we were very unhappy about that. That you would just offer up lesbians and you would do away with rape. Um, [00:07:00] without any, you know, we still, you know, the legislative treatment of rape and the police and judicial system. Treatment of rape is not good now, and it certainly wasn't good then. So, um, we thought that that was kind of, um, diminishing it as an offence. So were you able to have conversations with those men about that sort of change to legislation to get them to see your perspective? And then they just dropped it? Or [00:07:30] what happened was that, um when, um we heard about it. And also some gay men heard about it because I'm just trying to remember if the age of consent was, um equal or not. So I'll have to look remember that there certainly was unease about it. And, um, what happened was that we talked. Um, I personally don't think I did. But were lesbians talked to Fran Wild and other, um, labour women MP S and said, you know, this is a whole opening, a whole other [00:08:00] issue, and we don't support that. And we don't support, um, a bill that introduces an age of consent for lesbians because anything could go wrong as that bill goes through and you could end up with a higher a higher age of consent. So the so the MP S were actually being lobbied a bit by even different factions within the rainbow community. Oh, they definitely were, and because these were, um this idea came with an initiative mainly from Auckland gay men. [00:08:30] And, um, you know it It was a big, um, point of tension in the communities and the relationships among the different networks that some gay men and that, um, and lesbians said, we want an equal age of consent. And I can completely understand the point of view of other gay men, especially gay men that had lived through, you know, really hard times with the law. Um, who said No, we don't care. We just want we want an improvement [00:09:00] and then we'll keep you know we'll get something better later. So, um and I can understand that point of view, but I felt quite strongly that that it needed to be equal and because it said so much more. Accepting an unequal age of consent or promoting an unequal age of consent says that there's something about gay men and possibly lesbians that, um, people have to be more careful about Children have to be protected from young people, have to be protected from it, gives all those messages [00:09:30] and reinforces all those stereotypes and prejudices. So an equal age of consent for me was a really key thing. How was it for you being involved in the group that was talking with Fran Wild? I know that there were lesbians and gay men in Wellington involved in that, um how involved were you there? Um, yes. I went to the meetings that were held, Um, in late, I think. One in late 84 And then early 85 when she was thinking about it. [00:10:00] And when she was, you know, she she had seen that that other, the other, the Equality Bill was not the way to go. So, um, she was prepared to look into what she would do. Um, and and consider all options, which was really good. Um, I think the main, um I mean again, um, I felt and other lesbians said, but also quite a lot of gay men said we want the age of consent to be equal. We want you to fight for that, um, and we and the human Rights amendment. [00:10:30] It's important to have that into, um I think the main issue, though, that we had, um is that for some lesbians had been when Labour got elected in 1984. They said they were going to set up a Ministry of Women's Affairs, and they had forums around the country, an open invitation to women to come along and say what their issues were. And what happened was that, um, the, um conservative Christian women were very organised and they turned up on Mass, and they took [00:11:00] over workshops and issues that they disagreed with so abortion. So you'd have a women's forum that recommended repealing the abortion laws. You know, um, conservatively not, um, progressively. And you, um and and and, um, were anti lesbian. The some of the lesbian workshops in those forms came out with very anti lesbian recommendations, you know? So we had seen that a level of organisation that was starting to happen around social issues, that and also [00:11:30] and with labour coming in. Obviously, for those groups, there was a threat that things might be more progressive, even though the Labour Party was very divided itself because, you know, it had very conservative and, um, antis as well as the more radical social antecedents. So, um, we were really worried about friends, um, idea that it could probably go through it with a short, sharp parliamentary campaign, and we felt it was going to have to be more than that because we had seen these people in action [00:12:00] at the women's forums. And we felt that that would be mobilised, um, to an even larger degree of over homosexual law reform. So that was that was one of the things. But she wanted to try the other way. And she also wanted the bill to be secret before it was introduced. Which, you know, we that was, I guess, um, her judgement about what? Her colleagues in parliament and all that. And so, you know, we went along with that. Although, you know, we started having meetings, I think in early 85 to prepare, um, lesbians [00:12:30] for the fact that this might be coming up. So in terms of organising around, um, lesbians how how did how was that in the community around people getting on board with being active about the homosexual law reform or any of those any of the other issues? Um, were there were there divisions there? Um, yes. Some, um, lesbians had never really been active in the issue. So many of us. I mean, some lesbians had a few lesbians had been members of the homosexual Law [00:13:00] Reform Society in the late sixties, like their interest went back even though they later became lesbian feminists and and so on. Um so but some lesbians felt there wasn't an issue they wanted to be involved in. Um, and some felt that other lesbians probably shouldn't be so involved in it. Um, others, you know, didn't really were worried about how conservative the tenor of the campaign might be. And, um, about, uh, also about lesbians [00:13:30] being able to put our viewpoints across, you know, because it's so often when it's a mixed lesbian and gay thing, the gay stuff predominates. Um, but I think, uh, most sort of wanted those who decided to, like come to the meetings and that, um thought, you know, decided to give it a go and and, um, do what they could to support. And once the strength of the opposition was apparent and it was, you know, quite vile public campaign, Uh, a lot of [00:14:00] of lesbians who, you know, saw it as a different issue, and they certainly were active. They might not have wanted to be part of a particular group, but they were, you know, there were a lot of actions and confronting of people and ripping up of petitions. And, um, you know, there was a lot going on and a lot of, um, uh, activism by lesbians once that campaign was so public and so hostile, Right? So in a way, it was, um, mobilising lesbians because they were seeing this, I guess. [00:14:30] Hate thing directed at at at us. That's right, because I mean, they once they like, the Salvation Army took on the petition and took it around it Could people could turn up at your door with a petition to sign people you know, found that their parents were being put in a position and they were signing petitions. And without really thinking about the implications, um, people at work were being confronted with it, and, um, felt pressured. Uh, and so, you know, could be someone who who knew there was a lesbian [00:15:00] or gay member in their family. But it equally could be that person who who didn't want to be out at work. So it was quite it was a really difficult few months when that was all, Um so much to the fore and and also the the pro, um, petition anti homosexual law reform. Um, supporters seem to feel free to say anything about us. And and some of the, um, the MP S who opposed it felt free to say anything [00:15:30] about us. And so and it's see, it's it's quite amazing when I can't think really, of a parallel when your whole everything about you is up for public examination and any people can, you know, say really horrible things. Sullivan decided that all, um, you know that Maori gay men were victims of white, pre predatory, white gay men. Previously she'd been a supporter. And when um, I think it was Alison, Laurie [00:16:00] said to her, Why are you doing this? You know, you're you're harming us. And she said, Oh, no, it's not about you, dear. And so you know, there was this sort of a whole lot of, um, people obviously had a particular stereotype of some kind in their minds. And then some of the male MP S got completely obsessed with sodomy. And earlier on, when we were talking about the wording of the bill, I remember being involved in a discussion to say, Well, do we have to continue using sodomy? Can we call it anal intercourse? You know, and, um, and the MP S, who were part of that discussion [00:16:30] said no. That would be a step too far to change the wording. But honestly, that word on and on and on, you know, in Parliament and all the time. So I think it was It was the kind of situation where you felt you wanted to do something because the atmosphere and the papers and everything was so, um so anti it felt, really that it it was felt quite dangerous. If if if this, um, bill was lost and if that, um, whole really conservative social [00:17:00] movement was, um one then was dangerous for us and they would move on to other issues and I think you know that kind. So the personal thing of having to confront the the hostility and, um, the, um, violence was one issue. And then there was the thing. Well, what if they win? You know, it's not. It's not. This is not the only issue that they will be on about. They'll be after abortion. They'll be after other women's issues, So it's important to stand up to them. When [00:17:30] they when they were in the papers and and the media and so on about it and able to say what they wanted, Were they dragging particular people through the mud? Um, or was it more of this generalised generalised Because they did use a lot of American information and, um, slogans, uh, you know, sort of lines, argument lines, Um, and one of the things that was actually really infuriating and it and it happened before and it continued to some degree is that if there was ever like a positive viewpoint, the media's idea [00:18:00] of balance was to go and get some one of those people to be the anti, not talk about a whole range of opinions, you know, but that there was only pro homosexuality or lesbianism and these anti people and so they actually got a lot of exposure because they always had seemed like every time you spoke, there had to be an anti. Did you have his role as a media spokesperson? No, not that time I'd had in some of the earlier ones, but I didn't, um I didn't do that at all, um, I was more involved in the organising [00:18:30] and, um, both in the lesbian coalition, which, for all, you know, the fact that people had quite different ideas of how it should be being approached and what lesbians should do. Um, we did achieve a lot. So that was really, um, satisfying. And then in the gay task force and in, um, campaign for homosexual Equality, which was an activist group and organised to sometimes together with the lesbian coalition, a lot of the actual actual actions. So because the gay task [00:19:00] force was like a forum and anyone could come along, which was, I think, good. It was really good for all the communities and, um, networks. But it it was very, you know, very hard to, um, get a proposal for action from the task force through. So a there'd always be people who didn't like the idea of marches and, you know, stuff like that so sort of set itself up because people wanted to actually organise some actions and and then hopefully [00:19:30] the the gay task force, and that would support it, Which did happen. But what were the sort of achievements that you think the lesbian coalition could be credited for during that time. Well, I think, um, lesbians generally, um, including via the coalition. Um, our emphasis on the age of consent was really important because I think it was quite hard sometimes not to concede that maybe we'd have to compromise. And we just kept that up that, [00:20:00] you know, And it wasn't only us, but I think we added strength to that argument that that an equal age of consent was essential. Um, we, uh, organised coord some of the marches and events like that. Um, we organised a pamphlet, and one of the one of the issues is How do you present yourself? Like if you come from a background? Actually, when, um, you want to say, be challenging and say, you know what? What [00:20:30] you think is going on in society, how you think, um, sexism works how you think heteros works and so on. And, um and also you want to promote that lesbianism is good for women. So you're not never gonna say we don't recruit, which, which was very you know, the more conservative supporters are very keen to say No. No, we don't. You know, we? We're very safe. You and, um And then you're faced with this big outbreak where everyone's getting very agitated, and it seems like stirring [00:21:00] up a lot of homophobia among people you think might actually not be like that if they weren't being exposed to all this stuff. So we had to We took We decided to do this leaflet that basically said, we we are being lesbians. You know, we're your daughters, your mothers, your sisters, your friends, you know, we like basically we are part of you, and, um and that was a different sort of tactic from what we would have done at other times. So So that was one thing. Um, we, [00:21:30] uh we decided to go with that, but it was a bit of a step too far. When, um, a lot of the debates were about, um, were we were lesbians and gay men born that way, Or were, you know, was it a whole complex social thing? So that was very interesting. The other thing that the lesbian coalition did, um which I think was very, um, significant was that, um and it was borrowed in away from a French, um, tactic in the abortion, um, campaign [00:22:00] there. The pro abortion campaign is we organised an advertisement for for the when we had this big day of action in May, where there was a march and there had been a rally and there was a lot happening we organised, um, a advertisement and two full pages in the evening post one page, I am a lesbian or I am a gay man. And I support this and another saying I support this. And we just felt that because one of the issues that, um, Fran Wilde thought [00:22:30] at the beginning and some others went along with her judgement on it was that we should not speak for ourselves. We being all of gay men and lesbians, everybody, we should let other people speak for us. Because if people really saw us, they wouldn't like us, and they wouldn't. You know, they wouldn't support us, because if they saw what we were like, I mean, it was an amazing thing, and that was the full implication of it. We shouldn't have demonstrations because people wouldn't like it, you know. I mean, this is from where there'd been a lot of demonstrations [00:23:00] about the Vietnam War. There'd been feminist ones. There'd been anti tour ones. There were being pronuclear ones. Um, there were, you know, and and you And then you have a really powerful demonstration, like the land march. I mean, it was just crazy. And and I think the fact that there were lesbians, the lesbians in particular who got involved had been organised for a long time, you know, to some degree in our own feminist or lesbian issues in communities. And so we kind of bought that The whole thing of saying of a gay pride being really [00:23:30] important that we weren't going to be asking for anything. We were, you know, we were proud. Um, and that that, you know, all that gay liberation stuff had to be re reiterated. Um, no one was doing us a favour. It was great that Fran was putting the board the bill forward, But in a way, it was, you know, it should be changed, Um, and and also that we should be active on our own behalf, and I think that was really key. And that was why we, um, had the had the [00:24:00] various, um, demonstrations. And, um, one of the ones that I particularly enjoyed was we went to the Salvation Army and asked for our money back because it was being used against us. I mean, it was just you could never you would never get it back, and we didn't. But we had a we all in Wellington. We went along at lunchtime and queued up outside the office in Cuba Street and asked for our money back the money from where? From the collections that, you know, because the thing is they that was what was so, um, uh, damaging about [00:24:30] them taking the petition around that people were used to them coming around. They were used to them collecting many people, um, did sell the Salvation Army as basically socially benevolent, doing good things. And so and so we said, Well, we gave our money to their collections, and now we wanted it back because it was being used to fund this campaign against us. So just things like that, we just sort of turned it around because some of it is the the activist stuff of of, you know, having actions that will be people will, um, enjoy to do. [00:25:00] Um, and I mean, and but also and then there's also that kind of tradition of humour and and of camp stuff in our communities. So we wanted to build on all of that. You know, when we had a dress up picket, which I don't know, it's crazy. But outside the Citadel, um, in Webb street, the people dressed up as victims and oppressors. So I mean, it was just like trying to keep things moving, keep ourselves going, make a point and be out there, and and I think, you know, and we [00:25:30] were not going to be silenced, we were not going to have other people speak. We wanted other people to speak for us and with us, but we were not going to pull back and say they should take the lead. So amongst the the group of people who are really driving it, um, who would you say were the leaders? Well, people were leaders in different ways, I think, because you had, um, Bill Logan ended up being like the convenor and chair sort of of the gay task force. And he took that role on, and he was a spokesperson, [00:26:00] and there were people who you know, supported him. Um, Alison Laurie was a co spokesperson, and she bought a huge, um, long experience here and internationally. Um, then Tiggy, um, in stone was the, um she and Malcolm McAllister and others. Um, quite a lot of others put together the coalition in support of the bill, which was a way for other organisations to support. Um, so people sort of did really different things and then in you had, [00:26:30] like, someone like, um, Gavin Young, who'd been an activist for a very long time, and he chose that way of being part of the campaign. So and people so people kind of did the things brought their strengths to it. And this is only in Wellington. Of course there's. And we had quite a bit to do with the lesbians in Auckland because, um, there were lesbians there who organised events, too. Um, so it's it's actually hard to define. Um, who were the leaders apart from? Who were the spokespeople? Because a lot of people, [00:27:00] um, did things that were their strengths. You know, they they in the, um I mean, the person who did quite a bit of the organising of the advertisement was Alison Lash. Um, there were a lot of different people brought in the things they could do, and because they were quite experienced people, they kind of could do what they did. You know, um, the aftermath of the advertisement was really interesting. Um, because I I was wrong because I was the contact person for it. Um, I was rang at work by, um, the [00:27:30] advertising manager of the Evening Post to say they wanted to run an apology. And I said, Why? Why do you want to run an apology? And he said, because some people have rang up and said their names are the same as the people in the advertisement. And I said, There's no way we're apologising for anything. Those names are all validated by signatures. And if someone if it was true, which I doubt. But if it was true, um, then, um you know, we're not apologising for that because it's all they're all genuine people, which in [00:28:00] the in some of the advertising that, um, some of the fundamentalist groups had run, they had put in the names of people without consulting them. So it was a big thing for us that Everyone whose name was there had to have signed that they they were OK with it. And hopefully he had to have given some money towards it because it's really expensive. And so the advertising manager went away. I just said, No way. We're not apologising for anything. And we, you know, we bought the advertisement. It was all put together and honestly, and we're not There's no apology from us. [00:28:30] Yeah. So where did the money come from To help organise these things? Well, that money was people you know, gave small donations and, um, larger donations. You know, a lot of the participants gave some money. Um, then, um you know, the Victoria Club gave the lesbian coalition Didn't really have much money. I'm not quite sure how we Well, partly people did voluntary work to print things and, um, organise things, so we didn't have much of a fund, but the task force needed a fund for various [00:29:00] things. And, um, and the the social venues, I think were the main funders of that and maybe some individual, um um, benefactors, mainly gay men gave some money. The bigot busters. That's what was that about? Well, you know, Um, it was around the time of that song and movie, the Ghostbusters. So, um, idea came up. I'm not quite sure if it was who [00:29:30] I know. Peter Nolan from ABC recorded the bigot Buster song. Whether he it was his idea. I'm not sure, but, um, anyway, an idea arose, um, for, um, to make a bigot Buster song. And then that. And then people made, um, a bigot busters sweatshirts, which had, um, Norm Jones on it and a symbol, you know, like the, um, piece symbol that has or the symbol that's come to be used in a lot of things where it's a circle with a with a a diagonal [00:30:00] line across it. So that was over the front of him. Yeah, it was a good graphic. And, um yeah, so that that got to be That was sort of a, um, easy, easy kind of way of conveying that there were all these, um, people wanting to be active. And when there was a conference about that time when it was publicised, it was a conference in March and to sort of stand up to bigots, which but I mean talking about bigots is not a very political way of thinking about things because, you know, but but it was one. I mean, it was good [00:30:30] to just use every avenue. I think of opposition. Were you involved in many of the other things happening at that time? You You kind of mentioned that there was, You know, the action around the tour Springbok tour. The, um um there was the women's refuge and the sort of feminist organisations coming through. Are you busy with those as well as this? Um I had been, like, gone on the anti tour marches in 1981. And, um, [00:31:00] been, you know, to those actions, Um, mainly in the later seventies and the eighties. I was involved in lesbian groups and lesbian issues, and I supported feminist issues, but I wasn't involved in organising or anything like that. And the the Allies that came in, I guess from the union movement and so on. Um, did you have much to do with them? Um, yeah. I mean, I guess we would have a talk or, you know, see people [00:31:30] at, um at actions and so on. I was that was the coalition in support of the bill did a lot of that organising of contacting people. And and, of course, there were people who who supported it, um, and came up and offered. And there was sort of and it was really neat seeing old allies, you know, people like, um, Sir Jackson, who who was in, um um in the early seventies and and had, um, been very supportive, you know, always sort of supported law reform. Um, so it was great to see people [00:32:00] like that coming, um, coming and speaking out, because for a while it was a little bit hard to get people to speak out, but, um, And then, of course, there were wonderful women, like the group who really liked, um, creative actions themselves. So they were always there to support, um, and take part in things that were anything that was going on. Um, yeah. So it was There was a lot. I mean, yeah, I didn't talk to people in an organised way, but, um, I was often in touch with them or, um, talking [00:32:30] with them at things. How was the relationship with the, um, working with the men? So the gay women and the gay men, Um uh, having to, um, strategize and meet and so on. How how was that relationship? Well, it was really It was quite complex, because, um, there were gay men that, um, I had worked with before, And Gavin Young was a good example who was who were really politically savvy and had been involved in the [00:33:00] National Gay Rights Coalition. Um, I had a lot of respect for him. We just worked together, and that was fine. Um, there were a group of young gay men who were really, um, energetic and creative and and, um, fantastic. And, um, they And they also did really good things, like organising self-defense stuff and that because they were out and about around town and things got pretty violent. Um, sometimes there were, um quite some some of individuals got violent. And also there was [00:33:30] a group called the Catholics United for the Faith who were quite violent young men. And, um, a couple of lesbians got attacked by them, so Yeah. Anyway, so there was a really They were very creative. Um, group of young gay men. Then, um, there was the in the task, and some of them came to the task force all the time. Some of them came to There was then in the task force. There was that kind of mixture, and it was really they who who really didn't see lesbians as relevant. [00:34:00] They might have been pleased or not pleased about our support, but they didn't really think we were that relevant to it. Um, And so but, you know, so there was quite a lot of, you know, arguments about, like, we should be leading things. We should be the spokespeople, you know, gay people and lesbians. They should mention lesbians. They should not just go gay, gay, gay. They should at least say, and lesbians or somehow acknowledge lesbians were part of it. Um, so, yeah, it was, um, [00:34:30] but but also, you know, personal friendships and that were formed. And, um, I think they I think it was interesting. I think they probably ended up with quite a lot. They end. A lot of them already had quite a lot of respect for Alison because she'd been around since the sixties, even though she's lived overseas a lot of the time and then and some of the older men knew her so whether they agree with her, they knew her. They'd been young together, you know? And then they also there was a lot of respect for, [00:35:00] I think, because I came from a more political lesbian. Um, separatist focus. That wasn't they weren't They were wary of me. Um, yeah. So it was, um, someone like Pauline Simmons who was really strong. She had been around and done a lot of things in Wellington, um, over the years and been there since that very first attempt at law reform. So, yeah, it was there was sort of tricky, but I think, um, I think they I think [00:35:30] they did come to appreciate our, um, determination on the what we saw as the key things and that it was, you know, important that we not, um, give way and that we you know, we take some. You know, we take some control of the campaign as well as a as a collective. I don't mean, um, lesbians, But all of us, Yeah. What were the the points during the sort of 85 86 that stood out for you as sort of highlight moments? [00:36:00] Well, I think the introduction of the bill and by having both parts in it, that was That was a a highlight. But I wouldn't then that sort of, um some of them are, like, little victories in very adverse conditions. For example, when, um the first we decided that we couldn't just let all these, um, antibi meetings happen, we had to go to them, um, and just see what get the measure of what was happening and who the people were and stuff. And so [00:36:30] we went to the hut one, sort of turning things around. I mean, that was it's always it's always good to sort of come out to to be able to turn something on its head. And, um So that was when, um, one of the organisers, and possibly Norman Jones said, This is our meeting. You can't talk here because we were heckling. So they said, you know, we've paid for it. If you're gonna talk, you have to pay. So we just rustled up money very quickly, and, um, Alison Laurie and Bill Logan spoke and that they just [00:37:00] had to speak off the top of their heads in front of a, uh, you know, half supportive but half really hostile and really pissed off crowd. So it was quite frightening. You didn't quite know, Uh, a lot of the time. What was going to happen if things were going to get more violent? Um, because they were verbally so violent. Um, so highlights. So, you know, little, little, um, victories like that were very, um we were kept our spirits going. Um, having the marches were great. Having the week, [00:37:30] the weeks of action, and with a lot of people being involved, that was that was really good. And the other thing that we were doing all the time was broadcasting on lesbian radio, um, every every week. So that was a big part of keeping things going, getting information out because it was a, um AM frequency. So, you know, we were sort of and I'm interviewing people about what they were doing and what was happening and what was happening in other centres communicating with people in other centres because, you know, different, Really different communications, [00:38:00] photocopying things to hand out about what was coming up, like a whole different way of communicating. Um, so yeah, and the those sort of, um, liaisons. You know with other with people from other centres and and with other activists already. And I think, in a way, the sort of activism and the organising that worked in a way, they were the highlights for me. Yeah. And how how were the, um you talked about this? Um say the other centres. [00:38:30] Were you aware of action that was happening in the smaller centres, the small townships or the rural areas? Was there much going on there That you were able to support was really centred in Wellington and Auckland and Christchurch. Um, it was very centred in Wellington, in particular because of Parliament being here and because the big emphasis on on Parliament, even though, of course, um MP S go back to their electorates. The small centres that tended to be if people got in touch and that was great when they did like there was a guy who come Nelson [00:39:00] who came over quite often and talked about what was going on there. Um, there were people in Hamilton that we heard from who were doing things there. So, um and then when um, one of the marches happened one, a long time lesbian activist was then living there and she did a little march all on her own in the streets of So that was, you know, she was very pleased to just have a I think she just she had a placard and went so, you know, there's a lot of, um we sort of heard of things gradually happening around [00:39:30] the place because I guess not like now you just hear it instantaneously would have been if the networks and people phoning people or just Yeah, OK, in a way, it was more personal because you had to ring up or, you know, and have long discussions. And, you know, so that was yeah, um, the other thing that was happening and that that people did have to do in some of the smaller areas. Um, well, in big electorates, often but small towns, [00:40:00] um was because it was a conscience vote. You had to kind of win over every MP. So people were in many areas were lobbying MP S were telling them important parts of their lives, things that had happened to them in support of, um, both parts, but especially the human rights stuff. Um, and some MP S who should have been supporters who probably were supporters but who were worried about their reelection. Um, ran like a referendum [00:40:30] in their electorate. Some said they would be committed to the result. Others said they would be guided by it. But that did mean like there was a bit more work to be done in various electorates. So rather than having a party supporter at the bill, um and and because I mean many, obviously most of the support did come from the Labour Party and many Labour Party MP S were supportive. But having to do all this other work just to make sure you had enough MP S to support the votes was that was a whole lot of extra. And [00:41:00] a lot of people did that around the country where they, you know, that was one thing they could do contact their local MP S. Can you remember what you were doing on the night of the third reading When, when when it went through, Um, I was actually at home. I think, um, I don't know whether I thought it mightn't happen or because everyone else, of course, now says that they were sure it would happen, But, um, yeah, I just didn't I think, you know, by that time we were I was getting pretty tired, and, um so I didn't go to Parliament that night. [00:41:30] Um, so I heard it on the radio, which was and it was just It was amazing. It was, like, you know, just hard to believe that, um, it was all over, um, a bit nervous about what might be the reaction if there what sort of a backlash there might be. Um, I mean, we knew from the public opinion polls, which is, you know, only one gauge. But we did know that public support in general was gradually creeping up. Each time the Hale poll was run, there was a few more points and was up in the sixties, at [00:42:00] least. So, you know, we I hoped, but I was worried. I remember being a bit worried, a bit nervous about what? Now, you know, But I was very pleased it was, and it was very good to have got it through, despite the loss of the, um, part two. But to have got that through and to have the age of consent of 16 So I was here at home, and after it did go through What? What did you feel? Had changed. Did you Did you hear from people [00:42:30] about, um, how it affected their lives or I did, Um, And, you know, you heard really varying things because I remember meeting two lesbians who were just coming out during the campaign and getting together, and they were barely aware of it. And I just thought, that's amazing that they were living their lives and they didn't really plug into all this that was going around them on around them. Others you know, who had had a really rough time. Um, I think politically, though, I kind of felt, um [00:43:00] it was almost the end of something. And I know there are a whole lot of other things happening now, and I'm really, you know, I really support all the politics that are that are going on now, but it was like, um, we're sort of settled for that, you know that all that, um, those broad ideas of gay liberation and lesbian feminism and that that really wanted to challenge things that wanted, um, the hetero sexism not to [00:43:30] rule and and certainly sexism to be dented. Um, and and, you know, and look at the how that related to all the other things that classism and racism because I think one of the problems was, of course, apart from our you know, we tend to sort of blame ourselves in our politics. But what was, you know, the the social changes were happening, which was, um, you know what? You might almost call, um, some people would call moral. I don't really like that word, but I can't think of another at the moment that look at changes, some changes, [00:44:00] like law reform or some changes for women. But we totally lost the economic battle. And so these other huge social changes were happening that were meaning society was getting much more stratified. Um, people, you know, losing their jobs. Um, the whole restructuring thing was happening, um, the, um and and there was much more of an emphasis on the individual, not the collective or the communal. And I think that was also a big [00:44:30] thing in how the politics changed that we didn't kind of go back to OK, we've done that. Now what? What is what are the broader social things we wanted to achieve rather than the sort of rights the whole thing got narrowed down to a rights based agenda, which is important. And we always thought it was important. But it was kind of like leaving off all those bigger social issues that we wanted to sort of work out ways to disrupt and to have questioned. So, um, But I mean, I think mostly I like quite a few people, [00:45:00] sort of had a, you know, were had a big lie down. Almost. It was so it was very tiring. You know, it was really tiring. It was a lot of energy. A lot of thought, you know. And you were kind of on your toes for most of that time, Especially that first, you know, march to the end of 85 you really had to be on your toes for every little implication and every move. Everything that was happening and work out how to counter things. And and some people, you know, like, um I mean, Bill [00:45:30] Logan basically spent his time doing that. Alison Laurie spent her time doing that. Um, I did work full time as well, so I wasn't, um, but I was certainly talking to people during the day and that because things have come up, you know, um and yeah, it was it was a big effort for but it was good. I mean, it's certainly well worth it. And I mean, it's hard to believe it took so long from the first efforts here in sort of 62 63 when gay men started talking about it, Um, [00:46:00] that it's, uh, you know, it was good. It's It's kind of one of those things you wish you hadn't had to do in a way, though, because it was some, you know, fighting for something that should never have been there. You know, it's a little bit rather than moving into something more constructive. But it was fantastic that we, um that we did manage to do it. And I do think, um, that we did stop that whole moral right movement. Um, even though it was kind of interesting because one of the things that came up when Alison Laurie was overseas [00:46:30] getting support over there because one of the there was a day of action overseas as well. People picketed New Zealand embassies and Salvation Army, um, premises in other countries, which was fantastic. Um, Canada, Um, Holland, um, Denmark, You know, Australia. So it was That was really good. Anyway, those people kind of drew the links about, you know, the anti nuclear movement. And, um, because the right wing people who were feeding into the stuff here, they were very, [00:47:00] um um, you know, they were involved in right wing activities across the board in the States, not just religion. They were anti-american foreign policy, um, being liberalised at all and stuff like that. So it was, you know, there were a lot of, um there was a lot of connections between the issues, things that were happening here under the government, in terms of foreign policy and social stuff. Um, while at the same time, they were just going ahead with that whole economic agenda. So it was kind of like contradictions there [00:47:30] so that the world was watching. In a way, I think they were because I think for those sort of really, really, you know, fundamentalist groups in the States they liked the idea that they could influence a country, because in the states, the laws are, um you know, they were It was a lot of it state by state. And so they were quite keen to, um, to work in a country. A law that was a whole country. So, um, and they and they, you know, the people came over here and they put some money [00:48:00] in they. I mean, some of the things they did were really counterproductive, Which is good for us, you know, the or the guy who, um, helped them organise the presentation of the petition. That really put a quite a lot of people off. Who because he sort of had that whole Nuremberg rally. Look. So things like that, um, didn't work for them for But we also had to counter because people didn't realise that a lot of the stuff they were saying The horror. Really nasty anti gay stuff. A lot of that came from the American publications, [00:48:30] Not all of it. I mean, there are no American publication. Said we should be all put on Gito Island or, you know, all the other absurdities that came out. But a lot of the sort of underlying things came from American right wing publications and church, mostly religious Yeah, yeah, mostly religious. So that, um when um yes, talk another, um, debate that we had. I mean, I I've mentioned the kind of debates about the level of activism. How [00:49:00] out we could be speaking about ourselves. The sort of, um, born that way. Debate. Um, there were there were a lot, actually, we think of a lot of interesting debates and one of the things that came, of course, because it was quite a big thing. Um, overseas at that time was about outing people, especially outing opponents. And, um, we had actually had quite a serious talk about that because there were people who were being who were anti. Um, no, we didn't. I don't think we [00:49:30] knew anything about some of the main anti leaders, but we did know a few things about anti people, and we're pretty sure that they had same sex experiences, if not more. And so we There was a big debate for us, and in the end, we decided no, because we thought, given the whole, um, atmosphere of homophobia that just feeds into it because it's kind of acting like it's negative. It's really hard to get across that complexity that the negative thing is they're being so hypocritical and that being, you know, gay or [00:50:00] having same sex experience themselves, they are attacking and damaging us. It's really hard to get that across, so it would be satisfying for us, but it wouldn't have achieved good things politically, so we flagged it. But, yeah, there were many, many issues. I think that when you're running a big campaign like that, you have to deal with all the time. And it's really interesting to think of what they were at that point, because that those sort of things, if you did decide to go down that track, that could really just blow up in your face that [00:50:30] it could blow up in our face and it could. But it could just end up being negative for everybody. As and the person, um, you know, we obviously, but it is infuriating when people are actively working against you and you, you know, you know that it's because of how they feel about themselves or something they're frightened of and themselves. If, um, if you're looking at, um, the homosexual law reform and how it's opened the door for change [00:51:00] for sort of rainbow communities. Now, what would you say were the main things that came from it? Uh, well, I think it was, um, of course, made it much easier to push for, um, human rights, which was a bit of a double edged sword for lesbians because there's good things about that. But also meant, for example, two lesbians living together would have to go to a married benefit if they were beneficiaries, they wouldn't have two single benefits. You know, there were tradeoffs. Um, it, um the [00:51:30] passage of the homosexual law reform bill, I think. Definitely, Um, uh meant that New Zealand could address HIV aids much more constructively. I mean, it wasn't perfect or anything, but, um, it could move into a more constructive phase. And that was another good argument for it. Especially to MP S to having law reform. So that, um, you know, safe sex education could be done and all well done and all that, um, And then I guess what I was saying before, [00:52:00] I think it's the legis. Legislative changes have all been good, but it kind of put us on that track of legislative changes, but yeah, So it did It definitely opened the door for that. I mean, I think it and it definitely meant, um, made things easier for gay men. Um uh, and for lesbians as well. And that we were, you know, affected by people just seeing as all as one. And, um so I think for gay men, it's a bit more relaxed. Um and so, [00:52:30] um I mean, I do think the continuities are important, though, because, you know, seeing it all is a very long process rather than that one little time it has seems to me often, um, that people, um, see the whole homosexual law reform and gay liberation and all kinds of things as only those two years that there's this huge long history beforehand. And there's our you know, which I suppose Chris Rickles book shows There's all these cultures and and Alison Laurie's thesis and, you [00:53:00] know, publications that show that there's been communities and, um, same sex communities, networks, relationships forever. And this is just our sort of manifestation of them. So it's really important not to take those two years out of their context. So in the years afterwards, you went on a bit, had a bit of a rest relative. I imagine I did keep on doing the lesbian radio programme. That sort of was probably the main thing I did. [00:53:30] And, um, I was involved in some other, um, lesbian activities and that that helped after I organising lesbian studies conferences, Um, which were quite successful in the nineties. So there was Yeah. So there's been a, um I've done other things, and now I'm mainly my main involvement is lesbian and gay archives. So, um, I I find it hard to imagine that I could have done all that and work full time that you know, that whole period, because it was really intense. [00:54:00] Um, and when we were when I was younger, like in this early in the mid seventies, things it was very intense, too. We really got into things and organise things, but yes, so that's the kind of thing that you can't always sustain your whole life. Doing it at that pace with without that change in legislation, would things like the lesbian studies conference. I mean, it's that legislation actually helped make lesbians more visible in terms of the debate and the and [00:54:30] so on. That was out there, Do you Do I think I think what happened was, um that there was a huge public discussion that, um, hadn't been planned for. And we probably hadn't thought it would be that huge. And it was huge. Um, and in a way, the fact of that, um, open things up and we won. So you have to have the two things you have to have. The big public discussion and the fact that the bill was passed and at least part one was passed [00:55:00] Those two things together, I think, made for quite a lot of changes. You know, having said that, of course, there's still all the issues that we hear about now that, um, for both for, you know, across the board, Really, but particularly for young people. And I think increasingly for old people. But it's Yeah, it definitely was a big change. And, um, and a a relief.

IRN: 906
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ATL URL: 
TITLE: Parliament: second reading debate - Homosexual Law Reform Bill (9 October 1985) - part 2
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VOICES: Bruce Townshend; Doug Graham; Eddie Isbey; George Gair; Graeme Lee; Jim Anderton; Philip Woollaston; Whetu Tirikatene Sullivan
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bruce Townshend; Doug Graham; Eddie Isbey; George Gair; Graeme Lee; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Jim Anderton; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Parliament buildings; Philip Woollaston; Wellington; Whetu Tirikatene Sullivan; equality; homosexual; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; human rights; law; politics
DATE: 9 October 1985
YEAR: 1985
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from parts of the debate during the second reading of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill, 9 October 1985 (part 2 of 2).
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Those will have agonised over this subject at some length before they take part in the voting over the next week or so, which will determine the fate of this measure. I would like to suggest that the excesses of zealousness on the part of the advocates of the extreme positions have not helped the logical debate of this subject as we really need it. Before we come to our conclusions, I would submit [00:00:30] Mr Speaker that one of the reasons why we have this bill and we have this argument is that the present law is clearly seen to be deficient. And it isn't sufficient to say that because the present law is deficient, we must necessarily have the change that is present in front of us. However, I do suggest, sir, that time is long since passed when change should have been achieved. I was [00:01:00] one of those members in the house at the time. My colleague, the member for Wait, proposed his private member's bill about 11 or 12 years ago, and we came from memory within six votes of its passage. Had that bill been pass, uh, been passed, I do believe there would have been no case for the measure we have before us tonight. It is a difficult subject to debate and to explore and to discuss, because feelings are often [00:01:30] felt so keenly and because the diversity of opinion is so wide. I like I'm sure every other member of this house has sought by making oneself available to listen, to be talked to, to be jawed at, to lean the views of one's electors, which all come with their share of prejudice, just as each one of us in this house no doubt shows his or her [00:02:00] measure of prejudice. But we must try, as best we can, to put our personal prejudices aside and do what seems in our judgement to be right. I am not at all sure that because the community is so divided on the subject that polls or petitions help greatly, they do underscore the fact that the community is divided, divided in some instances, very bitterly. Parliament must not only try and solve this problem, [00:02:30] but I believe we have an additional task, which no one has yet addressed in this debate, to try to remove or reduce the polarisation that society is at present suffering in this debate, I have found in the course of discussing this general question with many people, that the evidence which comes from the mothers and wives and the ex wives of homosexuals, to be particularly sensitive and to be particularly revealing. [00:03:00] And I would like to thank those many constituents who have come to see me and tell me their personal stories and so help to build my picture of how I should respond in this debate. Mr. Speaker, this bill has three key elements. The first concerns the matter of the age of consent and whatever age we choose, it will be an arbitrary age. The second matter concerns decriminalisation [00:03:30] and the third, the part two provisions amending the Human Rights Act first with regard to age, I accept that the logic of the age of 16 is very compelling. I accept also that the age of 6 16 for young girls and heterosexual behaviour is in essence an arbitrary age. But society has come to accept it. However, it is my belief that [00:04:00] 16 is asking the country to move too far too fast, and it would be my personal preference for 18, although I willingly accept freely accept that there is no particular logic to 18 any more than any other age. I believe the passage of the decriminalisation provisions are essential. I supported such a measure 11 or 12 years ago. I took the time, the trouble at that time to try and become [00:04:30] conversant with the general thrust of the wolfenden report in Britain, which I believe was a very thorough study and there was a tonne of useful precedents explained there. I am much less happy, sir, with part two and I believe finally I will vote against part two. Fortunately, it will be presented to us as a separate bill at the Stage three procedures. So it [00:05:00] would be possible for a person to support a member to support decriminalisation, but to vote against the question of raised in part two I. I know also there is a certain logic to the to the arguments in favour of Part two, but I do believe that much of it is asking the law to do the impossible. Part two is asking the law to legislate for public attitude, and that has never been very successful in doing [00:05:30] that. And there are many, many examples of this decriminalisation is the essential ingredient, and I will support the bill through its second reading stage to make sure that we have the opportunity of achieving decriminalisation at the end of the day. This bill, sir, is described as a conscience measure. Those who are not familiar with the ways of Parliament will be perhaps a little misled by this reference to conscience. [00:06:00] No doubt there are many members who will view the vote. They make on this measure in conscience terms. But I myself feel that there is something perhaps more important than conscience involved, although perhaps indirectly it involves conscience. And that is, where do we each, as members of Parliament feel the overriding public good must lie? Where does the overriding public good lie? The honourable George [00:06:30] Gear doctrine that I happen to support? I will not vote according to any matter of, uh, of mighty principle or any matter of biblical study, and you can find support for the bill and support against the bill in the Bible. I believe, sir, that the greater good lies in removing the chief mischief, in other words, to achieve the measure for decriminalisation. And if that is achieved, [00:07:00] most will in time, fall into sensible place. Could I make this point also, sir, Because our society is so deeply divided. I believe the house, in the way in which it handles this bill should not aggravate the division, but should do its best to try to begin the process of healing the division. And in this sense, it is my submission that neither side those [00:07:30] opposed to the bill or those who want the bill passed in its entirety exactly as it is, should win, because if they do, the other side is bound to feel rejected. It is possible it is possible that the bill will be rejected at the second reading stage and that, I believe, would be a serious blow to this gesture towards social progress. But if we succeed in passing the second reading [00:08:00] and we succeed in sorting out our our views on the question of what is an acceptable but quite arbitrary age at which decriminalisation should commence, then we will have the opportunity of considering what is, I believe, a much less important consideration. Whether or not we should adopt part two for myself, I would be disposed to vote against it. And so, sir, I would like to thank [00:08:30] those who have written to me. And there are many, many hundreds, those who have taken the time to talk to me and those also are many, many hundreds and give me not only their views but in many case cases, their personal experience. It has taught me that there is a problem to be resolved, a problem that we cannot dust under the RA, a problem that we cannot ignore by rejecting the bill in total. It has taught me also that [00:09:00] there are many people in society who don't understand the problems of the homosexual who are fortunate in not having this problem in their own families. But that doesn't mean the problem isn't there, and it doesn't mean the problem will just go away. So, Sir, I would commend to the house that we pass this bill at the second reading stage and that we [00:09:30] sort out the details of age during the committee stage. And in this regard, I would hope that the sponsors of the bill will make provision for the House to tackle the question of age in orderly fashion, because if it becomes 16 or nothing. It may very well prove to be nothing. There will be an age which can find a If the bill is passed at the second reading stage, an age meets a general consensus, providing we find a procedural [00:10:00] way for tackling this with those thoughts. I wish this bill good wishes on its passage through the house. Thank you, Mr Mr Speaker. Like the member for North Shore some 10 years ago. I think it was. I voted for the member for Waits Bill for homosexual law reform and a decade has passed. And in my view, our society has moved along with it since 1975. [00:10:30] And I don't have the same difficulties as the member for North Shore. Over part one and part two and part three of the Bill. I thought about Part one. I thought about the age question, and I wondered about 16. And then I examined the total picture. If you have the age of consent for females 16, why vary it for males? Is there some sort of [00:11:00] male chauvinism attached to having the age of consent for females of 16 easy pickings as against having males, some other age. So in my view, there's a common ground to have an age of consent at 16. But, Mr Speaker, I don't think the sponsor of the bill nor people like myself on this bill would be hard and fast pushing [00:11:30] the age all the way. I think the essential feature of this bill is part two, Mr Speaker and Part two is to decriminalise homosexual. No, I'm sorry. Yes, yes. To decriminalise the the power to decriminalise homosexuality. So, Mr Speaker, I have no problem with that. The member for Tamaki said this evening that he would support decriminalisation [00:12:00] of homosexuality, yet he finds he has to vote against the total bill. And I can't understand that sort of logic. All this Bill is saying in that area is do we as a democracy want to put people into jail because they have a form of sexual orientation with a consenting age that we [00:12:30] may disagree with? For example, the member for Napier, he said he finds homosexuality repugnant. OK, that his total right to find homosexuality repugnant. Does that mean because you find some person's behaviour repugnant, you send them to jail, you get the police. You put them in court. You get the law onto them. You put them into a prison cell because you find [00:13:00] their personal behaviour repugnant. Mr. Speaker, the member for he read out a list of activities from some sort of book, a list of activities from some sort of book that he had. Well, let me tell the member for Kai Mai Hiraki. I'm sorry. The member for hierarchy. That's right. Let me tell the member of Hiraki that when he read out the list of those sort of activities, that's not something special [00:13:30] to homosexuality. There are. These are activities that spread right through the heterosexual world. Are you saying then that because you find a form of heterosexual activity unpleasant, that you're going to make it a criminal offence? Because that's what the member for Hiraki was saying. Mr Speaker, there are many forms of heterosexual behaviour that quite a large [00:14:00] chunk of people who are not homosexual find unpleasant and repugnant. But they would be out of their mind to suggest that they send those people to jail because some of the best manuals on the subject recommend some of these activities. Recommend these some of these activities. And so where do you go in regard to What is you, Mr Speaker? I also find when the member [00:14:30] for said some of the fact that uh uh he made some political comment that, uh, this bill coming in. We are defenceless in New Zealand today. Well, what sort of morality is that? What sort of obscenity? He used the word obscenity. In my view, the much greater obscenity, the much greater immorality is those who want to plant nuclear bombs on our soil. Here in New Zealand will bring nuclear [00:15:00] ships into our harbour. To me, that's a greater immorality. A greater obscenity than behaviour between consenting adults. Behaviour between consenting adults. Does the member for Taronga really want to send them to jail? Does the member for Tauranga really want to send people who behave in a particular way to jail because he doesn't agree with their behaviour? You know the essence, the hallmark of [00:15:30] a great democracy is to embody all forms of human behaviour, embody all forms of human behaviour as long as it doesn't in any way harm life, limb or property. It is with this bill for me. Society has moved since 1975 when the member for Toto brought in this legislation. We've gone a long way throughout the world. They've gone a long way. The member for Pai said [00:16:00] that this bill is being watched with great interest by the worldwide community of gays. I never saw them active in New Zealand. I did see another group coming in. I saw them on television. I heard them on radio. I think they became before the committee and they were a group known as the Moral Majority. They certainly moved into New Zealand attempting to condition New Zealanders in regard to a piece of legislation [00:16:30] that in my view is long overdue. And Mr Speaker, I don't want to prolong this debate in any way. In regard to my views in this area, there's one point I want to say. The member for Haa did say that the junior government whip, whose private member's bill, this is, was trying to ram this legislation through this house. Well, I can't see any evidence of it whatsoever. Every member in this house is allowed to get up and have a go on this bill. [00:17:00] No one's going to stop them and you should get up and give your viewpoint on it because your electors want to know where you stand and you should be able to say where you stand. I respect your conscience. You should respect my conscience on this issue. It is a conscience issue. I feel strongly about the issue. I believe it should be decriminalised. For me, a crime Is murder a crime? Is rape a crime? Is burglary a crime? [00:17:30] Is theft, but not a form of human behaviour that I might disagree with as long as it's not doing me any harm. So, Mr Speaker, I certainly hope that when members do get up and speak, when members do vote on this legislation, and even if they disagree with the age part, all right, let's have some amendments, increase the age. I'm sure most members must agree with the decriminalisation of homosexuality over [00:18:00] a certain age, and I think most members should agree with that. For goodness sake, let's pass that aspect of the bill. And in regard to the human rights area, I've always felt that it's wrong to damage someone personally in regard to their human rights because you disagree with some sort of behaviour of theirs. I think all people should have the right to a job the right to earn a living, [00:18:30] the right to associate within our society, without being compelled to lose a job or to lose something within their life because of their sexual orientation. I think it's a question of human rights, and I'm sure that all members uphold human rights in New Zealand, and we should go along with that sort of philosophy. Just one point. Mr. Speaker, the member for Hai, mentioned [00:19:00] AIDS. Most medical authorities I've read on the subject say that a bill that we're discussing tonight, the sooner we decriminalise homosexuality, the better it comes out into the open and the easier it is to tackle the problem. The medical problem of AIDS the easier it is to tackle the medical problem of AIDS. If you decriminalise homosexuality, [00:19:30] it's the weight of having guilt always in regards to your own activities that helps us spread the whole serious disease of AIDS. The member for Iraqi used it in the same context. Mr. Speaker, when he spoke about we're developing a community of promiscuity. Well, I don't know. Are we going to make promised guilty a crime Now. Are we gonna make promiscuity A crime? Is that he Has he has heterosexual promiscuity. [00:20:00] Is that a crime? I mean, it's a question of your attitude of mind to a particular form of human behaviour. And the only plea I make, Mr Speaker is that members all right will have differences about the age question, but a question of decriminalisation. If a member wants to get up and say he does not favour decriminalisation, is he saying that he wants to send them to jail? Is he saying he wants to send them to jail, send them to prison? Because [00:20:30] that's the alternatives. There's nowhere else between. And I would suggest, Mr Speaker, that all members in this year of 1985 move along with most of the Western world and support this bill. Mr. Graham, OK, found the debate tonight quite enlightening. And I think that the various points of view have been put very clearly both from [00:21:00] the extreme of the liberalisation movement and from the extreme of the conservative movement. It is, of course, a moral issue, and as such, we as members of Parliament have to exercise our own conscience in so doing, we bring to this chamber the beliefs, the moral laws with which we were brought up. [00:21:30] And in my particular case, as I suspect most of us in this chamber, I was instructed in the Christian belief, and I adhere to it. To this day, there seems to be some doubt as to what that Christian message is. Some would have it, that is, it is a message of condemnation, a message of hell, fire and damnation, a message that requires people to interfere [00:22:00] with the activities of another in an attempt to save them from themselves. But I prefer the Christian message of forgiveness, of compassion, of love and of tolerance. The message that each one of us, in our own way, has to work out for ourselves our own salvation. That is my personal belief. I accept that others may have another [00:22:30] view. That is the view that I bring to this parliament and put to the test. When legislation such as this comes before this house, what should parliament do then? As a group, when it discusses such a bill, I think the first criteria must be Is there a suffering of our people that requires this parliament to assist. [00:23:00] Then I think it has to say How can this parliament maintain the standards of behaviour which a clear majority believe are necessary in the interests of the society? Is it true that there is suffering that needs to be alleviated? I think clearly there is. I do not accept that homosexuality [00:23:30] is a matter of choice. I am quite satisfied that in many cases, if not in all it is not. I think therefore that to apply a criminal sanction is wrong. So I think people are suffering and therefore I seek to alleviate that pain. I ask, Am I at risk if [00:24:00] we do this or others that I love or others that I represent from activities that two people may take part? I don't think so. The only people that are at risk, in my view, from such activities, uh could be Children and provided the protection is there for them. And then there is no reason not to support the decriminalisation of such [00:24:30] acts. I do not believe that it is the function of this parliament to enter into the bedrooms of the nation. If I am in any doubt at all. I would err on the side of saying that it is no business of Parliament to interfere in that way. I do not support homosexuality. I personally find it rather abhorrent. I certainly have no desire to embark on a homosexual life. I feel particularly [00:25:00] sorry for those who find it necessary so to do. But I have no desire to make it a criminal matter. I do not think that it requires the sanction of the law, possible imprisonment or at least to be seen to be brought before the courts. And therefore I say there should be a decriminalisation of homosexual acts. The next part, of course, is a little more difficult. And it relates really to the protection of the young. [00:25:30] I think 16, probably today in 1985 is rather young. I accept the arguments that if it's good enough for young ladies, then why should it not be good enough for young men? Uh, but I would prefer, uh, that the age was higher. Uh, and, uh, during the committee stages of the bill, I suspect there will be some amendments made in that area. But [00:26:00] the hardest part is the question of the human rights legislation. Yeah, whilst I have said that, I do not believe that the criminal law should apply. Nevertheless, I think it is absolutely essential that all New Zealanders in their own individual right are entitled to express their views on anything free from interference. Unless there is some compelling [00:26:30] reason why that should be restrained. Mr. Graham. Opposition. We enacted the human rights legislation. We made it difficult. One could say we made it an offence, uh, for people to discriminate on the grounds of sex on the grounds of their marital status or on the grounds of their religious or ethical beliefs. I don't find much to argue in any of those [00:27:00] I think, probably that it is right to try to encourage people to take an objective and fair and tolerant view of that. But I accept that there are some behaviour patterns which people find totally abhorrent. And quite obviously from the speeches in this house tonight are many members of this chamber. I find homosexuality totally and utterly abhorrent to a degree far greater than I. [00:27:30] Should they be restrained from expressing that view. Are we doing New Zealand Society proud? If we say to them, you can now no longer say I have. I want to have nothing more to do with you because I do not agree with your behaviour pattern. If you elect to follow that, feel free to do so. As I have said, you must work out your own salvation. [00:28:00] I can help. I can guide if asked. But I have to say to you that I don't agree with your method. I don't agree with what you are doing and I voice my opinion against it. If we do not allow people to express that view, even if it may be bigoted on occasions and prejudiced, then we are suppressing something which will become a very latent and festering sore at a later time. [00:28:30] And I think that that is very dangerous and I think we have to be very careful before we outlaw the right to express views Well, she says, it's not in the bill. What is in the bill is that people who are in possession of real estate or job or granting jobs are not now entitled to discriminate on the grounds of sexual orientation. Well, well, express [00:29:00] an opinion, right? I I see. I don't think it's quite as simple as that, because what you are saying is if I want to. If somebody comes to me for a job and that person is a homosexual, I cannot discriminate against them on that ground. Is that correct or not? I think I should have that right. I think I should be able to say I don't blame you. I am not heaping scorn and condemnation on your head. I accept [00:29:30] that you have the right to do as you will. But I personally don't want to have anything to do with you. So I don't want to employ him. That's my right and I don't want that right taken away from me because if it is, then I will go away. And I will say I have been frustrated in expressing a view that I hold and society heads for danger. If we do that and so Mr [00:30:00] Speaker, it is not an easy matter. Passions are aroused and I think that the best thing that can be done at this time and in this chamber is to support the decriminalisation, to look carefully and listen to the arguments regarding the age of consent. But when it comes to the human rights legislation, I have to say that I am not convinced that sexual orientation should be included in the human rights legislation. [00:30:30] I would hate to think that society is prevented from expressing its view on this or any other matter, unless there are compelling reasons. And in this case, in my view, they do not exist. That is all I have to say at this time. Yes, Mr Sullivan. Mr. Speaker, As I see this bill, I see it as a radical measure. It has two [00:31:00] revolutionary purposes. The first is to establish, for the first time in New Zealand that the homosexual lifestyle is a legitimate option. This is the bill aimed at attesting and affirming and enshrining that legitimacy in the laws of this country. Its second radical purpose [00:31:30] is to attempt to redefine traditional normalcy as we have known it in this society. This bill and its proponents are using this bill and this debate to argue that homosexuality is a normal expression of human sexuality. So clearly, Mr Speaker, this bill seeks to make a sociopolitical [00:32:00] statement which characterises the relatively recent gay liberation revolution the revolution began about 1970 perhaps precisely in that year in America, giving rise to the uncustomary strident and arrogant demands of the younger gays. [00:32:30] That revolution thereby transmitted the older, law abiding, monogamous homosexuals into relics of the past. For them, I had considerable concern and genuine sensitivity, and I have expressed that in earlier debates in this chamber. However, monogamous partnerships [00:33:00] between older homosexual men went swiftly out of date at the inception of the Gay Liberation Revolution. Mr Speaker, New Zealand is following the American sequence of events some years behind, but we are following those self same events. It is therefore instructive to see what well documented research of the American [00:33:30] sin has to reveal in America. Mr. Speaker, the social institution which has been the most influential within the homosexual subculture, has been the gay bar. In fact, without the gay bar and the gay bar or gay sauna, as we would say in New Zealand, it would be impossible to conceive of the homosexual movement [00:34:00] as it exists today. Indeed, the exact event which brought the movement into the open, arose when the New York police endeavoured to curtail homosexual activity at a gay bar and the Stonewall riot occurred. Mr. Speaker, already in New Zealand, we have equivalent meeting places and we have had them [00:34:30] for some years now. 234 Yes, of the American Gay bars, medical researchers have observed that the degree of promiscuity defies the imagination of those not familiar with gay homosexuality. From the point of view of traditional values, they are some [00:35:00] of the most destructive and degrading institutions in America today. The mover of the bill suggested some might go to the city of the world, which has the highest reputation of homosexuality. She has Mr Speaker. So have I. Recently she has made her inquiries and so have I. [00:35:30] I do not want to see them in New Zealand. I do not want them to flourish here. Mr. Speaker, if this bill is passed, inevitably they will. We gave barbs or saunas constituting a major focus for the transmission of disease. The most recent one being AIDS, we see revealed the full implications of gay liberation homosexuality [00:36:00] for the rest of the community in terms of the health illness continuum, the honourable Mr Sullivan government to the health and well being of the whole community by the individual human rights of the individual homosexual. There is considerable documentation for identifying the gay community, the promiscuous gay community, as a reservoir [00:36:30] of disease for the rest of society. I have studied considerable documentation by medical researchers of this matter, and I believe any member of this House could have access to the same Mr Speaker. Proponents of this bill will resist these allegations since they are inimical to their interests and to the passage of this bill. But evidence suggests that the homosexual [00:37:00] community itself is very much aware of this. There are well known homosexual periodicals and they all carry medical advice, columns advising on the nature, treatment and prevention of illness directly related to male homosexual practises. There is no comparison to female homosexuality [00:37:30] and they should not be compared. In this context, though, it is convenient. So to do there is a distinction and they are not in the same category. Mr Speaker in America, there is a national organisation called the National Coalition of Gay Sexually Transmitted Disease Services. The degree to which the homosexual community is affected by sexually transmitted [00:38:00] diseases STD S and the promiscuity prevalent among homosexuals is revealed in its own advice to its members. I quote simply one sentence. Always exchange your name and telephone number to facilitate contact in case signs or symptoms of an STD are later discovered. There's so much more I can't repeat in my time tonight. But the impression given [00:38:30] by a study of the literature of the National Coalition of Gay Sexually Transmitted Disease Services Literature is one of ceaseless and quite impersonal sexual activity which creates the ever present danger of STDs. The Coalition that coalition has devised a measuring scale to enable gay liberationist [00:39:00] to ascertain their relative probability of contracting an STD. Seven major categories are listed to have a different sexual partner every other week is said to be a low risk. But to have more than 10 different sexual partners a month is a high risk factor. As to the types of encounters carrying high risk, the coalition points to [00:39:30] one night stands and Group six. The coalition also points to the high risk of sodomy and of oral anal sex to rimming to scatting and also makes a particular point about the possibility of major surgery to repair injuries sustained from anal sex. Using one's fist. [00:40:00] It also warns about intestinal parasites. Writing in the Medical World News Journal in 1980 Dr Dan Williams, an active member of the coalition, stated his concern that there could be a sudden outbreak of seriously damaged immune systems. Mr Speaker, this house knows that AIDS did [00:40:30] follow, as he predicted, about which he expressed such deep concern. There is little doubt that the extreme promiscuity associated with the male homosexual condition guarantees they are a high risk population as their own coalition points out for sexually transmitted diseases. [00:41:00] The Sentinel, a well established and respected homosexual newspaper in San Francisco, has admitted that the risk of contracting disease among gay persons is approximately 10 times that of persons in the general population. It has also reported that homosexuals have a risk of developing hepatitis B 10 times greater than the risk to other persons. Mr Speaker. These conclusions were confirmed by [00:41:30] a survey reported in the official publication of the American Public Health Association. Their survey yielded a variety of results, one of which was that 78% of the thousands surveyed by them had been affected at least once by an STD. The same survey indicated an average of 49 different sexual partners per homosexual [00:42:00] over a lifetime. Their survey was with members of the gay coalition and other homosexual organisations. It was furthermore reported in that survey that 10% of homosexuals have more than 500 sexual partners during their lifetimes. The high rate of illness in the homosexual community has been repeatedly linked to the promiscuity [00:42:30] of some of its members, and the connection between the promiscuous lifestyle of homosexuals of some homosexuals and their tendency to infection is clear. Mr Speaker, any act of parliament that might in any way predispose us to go further along the course, which we already have, and to impair the health [00:43:00] of the community should not be passed by this house. Commenting about the high incidence of ZD in the San Francisco doctor, Irvin Bra, director of the city clinic, indicated that the problem is due to generally active people having multiple sex partners, and Dr Braff made the observation that most of the partners chosen were single. Doctor [00:43:30] Silverman, director of public health for San Francisco, has indicated and described that city as a tolerant city. Hence the be Mr Speaker. I want to very briefly discuss some of the issues which have been raised with me by constituents and also some of the fears which have been expressed because many of the expressions of opposition which I have received have attested to a degree of fear [00:44:00] as to what may or may not be in the bill, not always well informed. And I want to say that those people, particularly outside the house but also some within the house who have dwelt at some length on some of the more bizarre. And I hope some of the more rare sexual practises which have been described in medical and other literature are actually not addressing the issues in the bill, but are in fact playing on people's fears, to the extent [00:44:30] that some of those practises which have been described are not in fact homosexual practises at all, but are sexual practises which can be engaged in between people of any gender and any form of pairing, and that I think is not actually helping determine the issues which the bill is about, Mr Speaker, some of the fears raised with me by my constituents have been based on a perception that If homosexual acts between consenting adults [00:45:00] in private are no longer punishable by imprisonment, then adult homosexuals will in some way be free to prey on young boys in our society. And that is in fact, totally incorrect. If it were true, it would be good grounds for opposing the passage of this bill. There is nothing in the bill which would permit that to happen. In fact, it is interesting to note that the bill provides a protection [00:45:30] for young boys, which does not exist in law. Now there is no specific protection for male Children from homosexual attentions. At present, what the bill does is to provide or seek to provide exactly the same protection for our male Children. As for our female Children, I happen to be the father of one of each. And that is, I think, how it should be. It is unfortunate that the youth of our country [00:46:00] is at risk from the predatory sexual attentions of older people. We must protect them from that. It is my belief that we have an obligation to protect our sons and our daughters equally, and that is what I would want the law to do and That is what I understand this bill to do it would incorporate into the Crimes Act exactly the same measures protecting male Children as presently protect female Children. [00:46:30] I want to mention the age of consent, Mr Speaker, because that has been mentioned by some members, and I want to mention that in the context of that equality before the law, it may well be that 16 years of age is too young. An age is too low. It's too young an age of consent. If that is so, then I would suggest that it is equally too young for female Children as well [00:47:00] the same protection before the law as I would wish for my son. It seems to me that the question at issue in the age of consent is whether there should be a different legal prescription in respect of homosexual activities than there is in respect of hetero heterosexual activities. I want to turn now to part two of the bill, Mr Speaker, because that is another fear, which has been expressed to me by a number of constituents and has been mentioned in the house tonight. That [00:47:30] part provides a particular protection in respect of discrimination on the basis of perception of sexual orientation or affection. The fear that has been expressed to me is that if there is no general criminal sanction against homosexual acts between adults, then people in a position of responsibility, such as teachers or members of the police force or senior members of the armed forces [00:48:00] may in some way be able to abuse that responsibility in order to obtain sexual advances or to press their sexual attentions on people who are within their care. And I want to say that that is manifestly not correct. The question of heterosexual attentions on, for example, school pupils, female school pupils by male teachers, which is probably the most common form of sexual abuse of that position of responsibility [00:48:30] is not does not call into question the legality or otherwise of heterosexual acts between consenting adults. It is, I think, statistically demonstrable that in fact, the by far the greatest number of abuses of positions of responsibility in a sexual manner is relates to acts by males in a superior position with respect to girls or young females who are in some way [00:49:00] in their care, and that if in fact, the licence for the acts between adults were causative of that, then we would be looking very hard at the position in relation to heterosexual acts between adults. But society does deal very severely and swiftly with, for example, a male teacher who abuses that position of trust in respect of female pupils. Exactly the same sanction in respect [00:49:30] of abuse of trust or of advocating immoral behaviour would would apply, in any case, to any person in a position of such responsibility with respect to the people for whom they are responsible. The argument that there is going to be a rash of teachers or as one constituent suggested Sunday school teachers who are able to advocate immoral acts to the Children within their care does not, in fact stand up. It is a fear which has been whipped up. I want to say also [00:50:00] in respect of an argument which was advanced by the member for North Shore. That part two is asking the law to do the impossible to legislate public attitudes, that that is not in fact in the bill, and that is not in fact, in the present law which makes illegal certain forms of discrimination it is obviously impossible to require by law people to hold certain attitudes. The present law does not require people to hold certain tolerant attitudes on matters of race or religion or [00:50:30] any other matter which is currently covered in the Human Rights Commission Act. What it does do is make illegal discrimination that is an unfair or unjust attack on the rights of other people on the basis of perceptions of race or religion, etcetera. And what this bill seeks to do is to make similarly an unfair attack on the rights of people on the basis of a perception about their sexual orientation illegal. And I think that is a very just and proper thing for [00:51:00] this house to legislate for. The member for Remo era suggested that it would make impossible an expression of opinion or a dissociation from people whose nature one disapproved of or whose nature gave rise to perceptions which led one to want to dissociate oneself from them. That is not, in fact, what is proposed in the bill. It is an unfair attack on the rights of other people because one thinks they might have a certain nature, which is in fact in the bill. The matters of principle in this bill [00:51:30] are likely to be lost sight of in the emotional debate which has arisen. And I'm pleased to see that the vast majority of members who have spoken on both sides of the debate have stayed clear of some of those emotional statements. But I was disappointed to hear an attempt earlier to link this bill to such matters as incest, youth and Asia, prostitution and so on. They are not in the bill. They are not envisaged by the bill. The bill does not affect the law on those, nor [00:52:00] does it make any statement on on those matters. And I think it behaves members of this House to bear in mind the matters which are relevant to the bill and the House's standing orders on relevance when debating it. The bill is also not about homosexuality per se, and that is a matter which is not well understood. The bill is about whether or not certain sexual practises or sexual practises between certain types of people [00:52:30] should be subject to a criminal sanction. It does not imply a judgement for or against people who wish to engage in those practises. It merely deals with the question of whether or not they should be subject to criminal sanction to the threat of imprisonment consequent on that to blackmail the threat of blackmail, sometimes to violence which goes unreported because of the possibility of legal action. And I suggest, Mr Speaker, that the questions [00:53:00] which members must address their minds to are those narrow questions of whether or not we feel that there should be a criminal sanction dealing with matters which are questions of moral principle, perhaps which are questions of strong opinion in society but which are not questions of damage to third parties, which are not questions which are normally dealt with. Uh, as in our criminal law, [00:53:30] there is also the question of equality before the law, whether or not there should be two different sets of legal prescription governing, on the one hand, the behaviour of the majority of those people in New Zealand who are heterosexually inclined and the minority who are homosexually inclined. What the bill does seek to do is to amend the Crimes Act so that there is one law which is applied equally to all with the same protection [00:54:00] to our young of either gender to the mentally incapable and to various other people. I believe that there should be equality before the law wherever possible. And I think this is one of those cases where there must be equality before the law. Therefore, I believe, Mr Speaker, that this bill should be passed and I believe that whether or not one believes that 16 or 17 or 18 or some other age is the appropriate age of consent for sexual activity, that there should [00:54:30] in fact be one age of consent, sexual activity and therefore the bill should be supported with the age of consent of 16. The question of what the age of consent should be in general terms could be addressed if the house so wishes in another matter at another time. Mr. Speaker, I would like to say in the time remaining to me a few words about the petition which has been brought before this house. The petition, which the member for hierarchy said was for God [00:55:00] for country and for family, and I want to refer to the numerous representations I have received from Christians in my electorate who are incensed because they do not like to see the mantle of Christianity hijacked by people holding one particular view on this bill by people who are patriots and who do not like to see. It claimed that only people who are in favour of this bill can claim to be for country by people who hold strong family views and who resent the suggestion that only those who oppose [00:55:30] this bill can claim to hold strong family views. There is much more I could say about the petition, Mr Speaker, but I'm aware other members of the House wish to speak on this bill. And so I leave it at that. I hope the House will support the bill as it has been reported back. Uh, Mr Townsend, Mr. Speaker, if ever there was a time that the house is flying blind, it is on this bill as a result that the Select Committee did not address two very vital areas that [00:56:00] we are looking at tonight. One is the age of consent, and the other is the moral aspect of the threat of age to the wider community. And if we go back and Travis what the Select committee did and have failed to report to this house on many speakers tonight are grappling for information to know what is the right decision on this particular bill [00:56:30] as to how whether the bill should be passed or whether it should be declined and the effect that it will have and the risk it will put to the community at large. For that reason, Mr. Speaker, I wish to honourable gentleman. But the time has come when I'm asleep, the chair and the house stands adjourned until 2 p. m. tomorrow afternoon. We got up front [00:57:00] age, whether by mutual consent or not to be a criminal offence. A good deal of heat has gone in this debate, Mr Chairman, and has been generated by many who prefer strong Christian beliefs and are outraged by the morality or immorality of male homosexual behaviour. The fact that no criminal sanctions exist for female homosexual behaviour is a point on which most are silent. Is it the job, [00:57:30] Mr Chairman of politicians, to pass laws which deliver moral judgments on members of our society? Some Christians quote the Bible as their source for saying yes, but the Bible is a dangerous document from which to quote Mr chairman, you can get it quoted back at you. Christ himself did not have a high regard for either lawyers or lawmakers. Unless your justice gives fuller measure than the scribes and the Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdom of Heaven, he said. And [00:58:00] for those who are anxious amongst us to rush forward to judge the behaviour of others, he made the mob of his day an offer which they all refused. He said he who is without sin, cast the first stone in 1956 Mr Speaker prior to the reform of laws against homosexuals in Britain, a committee was set up by the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster to draw up a report on the Catholic position regarding homosexual [00:58:30] law reform. The report, which was submitted to the British government, came to among others, the following conclusions and I quote attempts by the state to enlarge its authority and invade the conscience of the individual. However high minded always fails and frequently does positive harm. It should accordingly be clearly stated that penal sanctions are not justified for the purpose of attempting to restrain [00:59:00] sins against sexual morality committed in private by responsible adults. They that is criminal Sanctions should be continue because one they are ineffectual. Two. They are inadequate in their application. Three. They involve punishments disproportionate to the offence committed, and four, they undoubtedly give scope for blackmail and other forms of corruption. Now no one in their right mind, Mr Chairman, could accuse the cardinal Archbishop of Westminster [00:59:30] of leading some kind of radical reform to hasten the demise of Western civilization. The truth is that people are not are made, are not made either good or bad by laws but by the set of ethics we acquire and by our own moral formation, which is gained on a personal basis, not through legislation. I was going to quote to the house a number of very, uh, well informed and sympathetic views in terms of the empathy the writers had, and many members [01:00:00] would have had letters like that. But I want to conclude by quoting one from an ex London policeman who wrote to me in favour of reform as follows in the matter, he said of the homosexual law reform bill, there appears to have been no mention of who does the arresting if consenting adult homosexuality in private remains a crime. Will it be you, Mr Anderson, or a religious group or a vigilante [01:00:30] squad? Or will it be the police? Before the English law change, he wrote I was a young policeman ordered into the dark streets and the private recesses of London to hunt and arrest homosexuals. My actions were the immoral act, his crime, his sexuality, my shame that I had no brief to crush the sensibilities of a fellow human being to criminalise private [01:01:00] morality. Turns off the steep path turns us off the steep path to civilization. I think this house should pay good heed, Mr Chairman, to the words of a young London policeman, now a New Zealand citizen writing in earnest and with grave concern about the way in which this House votes on this matter, I urge the house to take the liberal, sane and compassionate road [01:01:30] to reform. That is the road which leads to a better society. Uh, and an improvement on what we currently have. And in my view, Mr Chairman, that is the option before this house. Mr Lee. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I want to firstly explain to the house and to those people listening tonight how they promoted this bill has been using her office as [01:02:00] junior government whip to rush this bill through this house and to explain that correctly, this should have been the day of the report back of the bill. Instead, we are commencing the second reading debate by exercising that action. Mr. Speaker, it has successfully stopped what would be the normal convention of the House to have a seven day gap [01:02:30] between the report back and the second reading and on a bill of this size and this major importance, that would be the protocol. Mr. Speaker, I reported this bill back. I want to make it absolutely clear that it was not done under any government instruction or whipped. Well, speaking to the point of order, the honourable Mr Wellington summed up very well, Sue. And he said that is debating material. It is not a point of order in accordance with our standing order. [01:03:00] Uh, well, I would I would have to find that way. It seems that the, um the matter having been dealt with, uh, in the select committee report, it's not appropriate for us to, uh, cover that ground again. However, um, this is the second reading debate, Mr Lee. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Sir, this debate is of tremendous interest to the people of New Zealand. It is also of tremendous interest to the [01:03:30] worldwide homosexual network because this bill, the bill that has come before this house now has been prepared over a long period of time on a very highly organised basis. And, sir, it's in their words that they have chosen this time and they have chosen the socialist government. And it should be of concern to the people of this nation that some members of that government have [01:04:00] made declarations of very liberal attitudes and who do not accept the traditional morals of our society. And what we have now, Mr Speaker, is a bill before this house which is of intense interest to homosexuals everywhere. Because one, it indeed is the most progressive legislation of its type ever offered in the world. And secondly, [01:04:30] it is a reflection of the intense commitment of the homosexual people to obtain the rights they believe at any cost. And therefore, sir, they've gone to significant lengths to, in fact, to ensure that this bill is not amended and I can agree with them on that one point only that one point only, that this bill cannot be amended, sir, it cannot be amended. It can only be thrown out. [01:05:00] And that is the clear direction of the people of this country. It is not sufficient to simply eliminate part two of the bill or to raise the raise the age benchmark to 18 or 20 years. That will not in any way eliminate the threat that this bill in any part represents to the family life of this nation or to the public health of this country. [01:05:30] So the clear reason why this bill cannot proceed is the fact that the people have spoken through the petition. The petition that has been announced to this house as 817,549. But, sir, I want to tell the house that tonight that figure unofficial certainly. But it is a figure [01:06:00] in excess now of 830,000. That figure, sir, is a figure in excess of the figure that elected this Labour government in office in July 84 in excess of 830,000. And we've listened already to some amazing verbal semantics tonight as to why this petition is not valid. But it's understandable that there has been inordinate lengths undertaken by the proponents bill to discredit this petition, sir, [01:06:30] and they will go on doing it. But they will keep on this sliding and worthless attempts because the petition finally stands alone. Sir. Let it be said again that this petition is in a historic petition of immense proportions. And the only way that the members who will not accept this petition can do so is to deny the petition as a democratic tool of this Parliament and this government. [01:07:00] Mr. Lee Opposition Haki sir, The petition is so large, it's been compared that it would be in excess of 80 million in comparative terms to the United States of America. This petition says clearly unequivocally plainly that the people of this country do not want this bill to be made law. I accept errors, [01:07:30] sir. There will be errors that will still be found in spite of the attempts that were made by volunteers with the very most honest and most purposeful approach to the checking of this petition that there will be some errors that will still be there, Whether it be 5010, let it be even half the whole half of that bill, sir. That still is a voice of incredible proportions. It is a voice that says to every member [01:08:00] of the Parliament here tonight that it is an irresponsibility for this parliament to pass this bill. And sir, I have to say to you that it's been a great concern to me to have been assailed as one of those organisers of this petition to have heard the repeated comments of right wing fundamentalist bigots. Sir, I repudiate [01:08:30] and I renounce all those allegations as totally incorrect. And I am delighted tonight to stand here to associate myself with Sir Peter Tate and Keith Hay and all those other workers who have gone up believing that the people of country wanted an opportunity to say in a very visible form, they do not want this bill. They have done that. Their faith was more than justified, and the people sir, have spoken, and it's right, and it's proper that that petition [01:09:00] and that effort should be aligned with the motive, which has also been in fact spoken against so strongly that the motive for God, for country and for family is a proper expression of all this petition has meant in its compilation. Sir, it's important, I believe, to every one of us as members of Parliament here tonight and to the country that their petition prevails. Sir, I want to [01:09:30] speak about the fact that homosexuality is not one that cannot be changed. There's been a number of comments made already tonight that, and it is very fundamental to this whole argument that the homosexual is born that way. It is likened to be left hand or right hand, so there is no evidence around the world after decades of in fact, of assessment, [01:10:00] biologically, hormonally or genetically. The homosexuals were born that way. Therefore, sir, if they're not born that way and accepting that there is some very real difficulties that can be faced by many people from parental imbalances, et cetera, and except that it will take a long time for adjustment of life. But it is still therefore an acquired or learned behaviour, and therefore it is an acquired or learned behaviour. It can be an unlearned behaviour and homosexuals [01:10:30] are responsible for their actions, and it is a matter of choice, It is a matter of choice. And I'm delighted in spite of the unfortunate allegations tonight already in this debate, that investment has been put into the lives of people to allow the formation here of internationally claimed bodies that will help the homosexual, this country such as Homosexual Anonymous and the Exodus Organisation, sir, people against this bill because they have come [01:11:00] to understand homosexuality. I don't believe I understood it very fully. I believe a lot of this nation have understood very little in the initial campaign. But they do understand now, sir, and I have no pleasure in briefly talking about the practise of homosexuality. But I believe it's important. It's important that once again, the house and the country understand exactly the nature of this practise, and [01:11:30] we speak against again. I repeat, not the homosexual, but the practise, sir. I'm speaking from an a pamphlet that is called AIDS. New Rules for Safe Sex, put out by the AIDS Foundation, an organisation that seems to have been given the blessing of the health Department by which is, in fact the aid network in the past, and using taxpayers' money and So it says here in this am I going to repeat pamphlet that the practises [01:12:00] of homosexuality are a of course, fucking vial sex sucking to the point where you swallow the seamen or you stop before the actual swing of it. Semen indulging in water sports that is urinating on each other rimming, which is turning the anal area. Which, of course, brings the mouth [01:12:30] into contact with faeces, or indeed seeking even to enter the anal opening cheering of six toys twisting, which is to use the twist an arm into the rectum and write up the body of the partner or using other such things as. In fact, I don't believe we need to hear, hear about. So that is abnormality. That is our naturalness, that is, [01:13:00] against every normal habit of the body. It shouts out, Sir, as being something that this country surely cannot accept in any form of manner. It is calling, in fact, for the abnormal to be made normal for the people who believe normality is what life is all about, to be seen in the context of this bill and its passage to be then abnormal. So the comment has been raised as [01:13:30] to whether the homosexuality, if this bill is passed, will not increase, it will increase. And I will quote a book the book again that was quoted by the member for a book written by Mr Bacon on the social effects of homosexual New Zealand and says says here not just the first point which said that the homosexually, when declared legal, would be seen to be legally acceptable. But it goes on [01:14:00] to talk about the fact that a boy will be more likely to have his first sexual encounter from a practising homosexual. Thirdly, that the homosexual lifestyle will in fact encourage unrestrained propaganda that will certainly start in the classroom of our nation and will continue in society, fourthly, that homosexual groups were able to demand the funding from [01:14:30] the taxpayer's purse. Finally, Fifthly, that homosexual behaviour will indeed be a magnet to other homosexual communities around the world. I think that's almost a certainty. So I believe logic for that. And so I say to you that it is my belief and I believe common Sense says it, that the bill, if it passes through this parliament, will see an increase in homosexuality. Britain After 10 years, states from [01:15:00] the Research Public Act increased 300%. San Francisco, we know, has seen an increase of 2400% in sexually transmitted diseases. Los Angeles in the Anaheim area have had to close toilets and parks because of the increased activity of homosexuals. Since it's been decriminalised, sir, homosexuality will increase from the decriminalisation of this bill. Now, if it that is so, [01:15:30] It has therefore got to be seen that the AIDS problem will commensurately be that much greater and has been significantly admitted so far in the comments tonight. So what are we doing in the light of those comments with the increase in homosexually arising from this bill's passage to then say we see no difficulty when AIDS the greatest killer disease [01:16:00] confronting this nation or indeed the world is indeed at our back door I put to you, sir, the very, surely logical comment into this house. If we have waited two years when the age will be indeed in this in this country a very much worse threat, would that be the time that this bill would be offered this Parliament? I think not. I think not. Indeed, If the decriminalisation [01:16:30] of this type of law which has happened in many states of the United States was the reason to halt the aid, then why is it indeed, in fact, that aid has become almost an epidemic in the United States now doubling every six months in its incident? Sir, it is irresponsible, illogical. It is insane that we are pursuing legislation that will in fact give rise to an increase in age at this time, Mr [01:17:00] Lee. Opposition from the Health Department is obviously confused as to what will happen from his assessment. One thing he is clear about Sir is the fact that promiscuity is the issue to avoid. He is backed up by the World Health Organisation, which defines promiscuity as any two patterns as any two partners resulting from sexual activity. Indeed, if we take through the facts that the AIDS victims in [01:17:30] the United States have all on an average had at least 100 partners in the year preceding their death, then, sir, we have promiscuity of a large scale and it cannot be laughed away by the homosexual community. Theirs is a community of promiscuity, and many facts were delivered to the committee to indicate that over a homosexual lifestyle lifetime, there is over 1000 partnerships. [01:18:00] I say to you, sir, that the thrill of AIDS alone stands as a reason why we should not be part of this bill. I am concerned at the family unit, and I have spoken primarily in an address that I've given to the nation to the 21,000 people I've had the privilege to address that the family unit is at risk by the passage of the bill. The wives are at risks, sir, with the heterosexual community [01:18:30] distinctly at risk from that action because on their own admission, 70% of the homosexuals in this country are bisexual. It's not sufficient to talk, as another member did about, in fact, the risk of those people in their marriage situation. The risk, sir, surely, is for the wise and from the wise to the nation as a whole. Secondly, the Children of any family unit must become at risk. [01:19:00] They will be at risk in the classroom where it will be quite in order to speak about the question of homosexuality, to see it promoted actively by people in teaching positions, Sir they are going to have to come home to their parents and ask their parents why they should not be involved when they have been openly taught the advantages of this type of alternative lifestyle. Thirdly, the family has an identity and as [01:19:30] a whole is at risk because they face the challenge of a legal, lawful, so called viable alternative lifestyle. The lifestyle of homosexually, sir. And if we have any concern for the family unit of this nation for its integrity, for its future importance to the nation for its role as the cornerstone of society, then we must not pass this bill because the family will face the greatest single threat in the nation's history by the passage of this [01:20:00] bill. Sir, all these arguments, I believe, make it very clear that the parliamentarians of this house must not allow this bill to be passed.

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TITLE: Jerome Cargill
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VOICES: Jerome Cargill
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; David Pegram; Day of Silence; Destiny Church; Diversity Group (Newlands College); Enough is Enough (2004, Destiny Church rally); Friends (tv); Hadyn Jones; InsideOUT Kōaro; Jerome Cargill; Mike Hosking; Newlands College; Onslow College; Post Primary Teachers Association (PPTA); Rainbow Taskforce for Safe Schools (PPTA); Rainbow Teachers NZ (Facebook); Robbie Manson; School's Out (Wellington); Seven Sharp (tv); Shift hui (2016); Tabby Besley; Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington; The National Curriculum; UniQ Victoria (Wellington); University of Waikato; Wellington; Wellington High School; acceptance; biphobia; bullying; bummer; camp; civil unions; closed community; closeted; coming out; community; cross dressing; diversity; diversity group; diversity training; drama; education; effeminate; employment; empowerment; facebook. com; faggot; family; film; friends; gay; gender identity; gender neutral bathrooms; gender neutral uniform; gender-neutral; google. com; guidance; health education; heteronormativity; homophobia; homophobic bullying; identity; internet; intersex; intersex phobia; judgement; language; lesbian; masculinity; media; normalisation; other; othering; parents; peer support; poofter; privacy; pronouns; queer straight alliance (QSA); relationships; religion; respect; role model; rowing; safe space; safety; safety plan; school; school prom; school uniform; sex education; sexual orientation; sexuality; single sex schools; straight; support; suppression; teacher; teachers college; teaching; television; tranny; transgender; transgender bullying; transphobia; university; youth
DATE: 1 May 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I guess I have always been interested in helping people and doing things that make a difference for other people's lives. I've always been that kind of person, and it was, uh, for me. I was about in year seven, about 11 years old, when I had the best teacher in the world, and he really took me under his wing. Um, I was a bit of a I was a good student, and he, um, [00:00:30] really helped me in a number of ways and a number of things and made me grow enormously that year. And during that year, he told us a story about how he became a teacher because his mom identified that he liked helping people and that he should think about becoming a teacher and that for him, was a real trigger. And he shared that with me and then added that I should think about also becoming a teacher, and for me, that was the seed. And from then on, I just I was destined [00:01:00] to be a teacher. I just had to get there as quickly as I could. So what makes a good teacher, uh, someone that's passionate someone that works for the students And, um, that believes in students ability and capacity to be, uh, fantastic contributors to the world. Um, someone that thinks that young people are as capable of making a difference as anybody else in the world. Um, and someone that wants to see, [00:01:30] uh, young people succeed and be people that can actually lead the world. Um, and change society. Um, I think we we we sometimes fall into this hierarchical sense of, um once you're older, you can then lead and make a difference. But actually, I think the world is so democratised at the moment that I I like to see it the other way around. And I think it's really important that when we are teaching our young people that we believe in their capacity [00:02:00] to to think outside the box and make change now. So I think that's really important in education, particularly as, um, things are so Devo in terms of, uh, access to devices and technology and means that anyone can really contribute to the world, um, and put things out there and be producers of content. So, um, that's I think that's a key key notion of today's world. So tell me a wee bit about your background. Where Where do you come from? [00:02:30] Um, I grew up in Wellington, and I've was schooled here, Um, all through my Wellington years, and then I kept trying to leave, and I never did, because I kept getting opportunities in Wellington. Um, so I ended up going to Victoria University, studying film, media and English, um, and then followed straight on to Teachers College. Um, and then I ended up getting a job at Newlands College, where I work now [00:03:00] and have been working for the last seven years. Yeah, and in terms of your sexual identity, I came out when I was about 17, and I become I was aware of something being different for, um, a number of years leading up to that. But I was I was very much in denial and didn't when I was looking around, I didn't really have that many role models or that many that that much access to, [00:03:30] uh, that kind of world. So it took me a long time to connect to it. Um, but eventually I did. And then it went through the sort of slow process of telling one friend at a time and eventually I think, by the sort of the middle of first year at uni, I was, um, well and truly out of the closet and have been ever since, so 17. So what kind of year was that? That was my last year at school. Yeah, my last year at high [00:04:00] school, but 2000, 2005. Yeah. OK, so in 2000, in the in the mid two thousands, what kind of images of of rainbow people were there? What? Was there anything in the media? Was there anything that you kind of related to? How That's the problem. Looking back, I can't actually remember anything that that either ever really triggered a strong connection for me. And I mean, I certainly don't. I'm not one of those people with a with a gay uncle or, um, some family member that [00:04:30] that I could connect to I. I now know that, uh, my what would it be? Great, Uncle um is gay. But it wasn't talked about in the family as a as a thing. So there was There was nothing that grabbed onto there and in terms of what I was accessing in the media. Um, whenever gay came up, it was very much an other thing. Um, and I think that I never I never saw something that made me go. That's a normal way. Uh, that's a normal lifestyle. That could be me. That could be the the thing [00:05:00] that I'm missing at the moment. Um, so, yeah, it wasn't I can't think of anything specifically that that I connected to. And I mean, the only thing that I can remember, um, having really confused thoughts about was was, um, watching friends and seeing, um, Chandler constantly being mocked for being in feminine and, um, being slightly different and that notion of of, [00:05:30] uh, his potential or perceived homosexuality and that being a really negative thing that triggered a lot of, um, humour and mocking. Um, that was that was something that I I just remember seeing and and going and maybe actually jumping on that bandwagon and using some negative language around that. Um, but yeah, I didn't I didn't really have much connection in terms of what I was experiencing in the media when I was in the [00:06:00] two thousands. It's very different now. Yeah. So were you I mean, can you recall instances where you were actually kind of homophobic? Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I mean, uh, particularly growing up in all, um, being in an all boys school where the homophobic language was was thrown around constantly. Um, I was definitely on that bandwagon because of that need to fit in. Um, and that was that was something that I was looking back I'm extremely embarrassed about, but, [00:06:30] um, that that was the culture of the time and that just there was there was nothing was in place to challenge it. No one was actually actively giving us any alternative discourse around this. This issue it was it was simply, you know, anyone perceived to be homosexual was suddenly all those negative words that we know. Uh, no. So, what negative words are we talking about? Well, so definitely in the all boys school we we threw around faggot a lot. Um, [00:07:00] and, um, and, um, bummer. Was was was a key one for for a while. Um, and of course, this is all tied to male identities because of the all boys nature of it. Um, but that was that was the most of it. And and, of course, that everything was gay. You rule that it didn't work was gay. And this assignment was gay. And this time of the day was gay. So, you know, everything was was, [00:07:30] um, sort of drawn up into quite negative terms. So can you recall any say, um, gay students or gay teachers? Um, yes, Um, no gay students. So I I went through my entire school year never having a, uh, a peer come out. Um, there was there was talk of a few people. And of course, there were people that were, um [00:08:00] that had far more sort of camp gestures or or something that that made them more of a target than than I was. I mean, I've I never had anything that was quite outwardly, um, perceived as a feminine or anything like that. So, um, I wasn't a target for that stuff, but I think I was also very conscious of not being a target, so I'm not sure how much there was probably a balance between those two things. [00:08:30] Um, but those those students that that were they were certainly, um, targeted. Um, but to my knowledge, they haven't come out or or anything like that since And we had a teacher. There was there was one teacher who was, um, openly gay at school. But there was a lot of negative talk that went around that, um outside of that classroom, I think I think the the whole idea of respected [00:09:00] to their face. But behind the scenes, it was all that negative language again. And that was just, I think, the school culture that that was in place like no. One, no one was there to stop that. And the school culture didn't embrace diversity holistically. So as a result, there was. There was there was the room for for those students to to target that and in quite negative terms. And that just added to the difficulty around coming to terms with one's own identity [00:09:30] when that's framed up in such negative ways. Did those negative attitudes influence what kind of subjects you took at school? Um, it was quite funny because it's actually it was actually a school with quite a strong arts culture. That was that was interesting. And I know that that often has that strong connection with, um, queer culture and, um, it was quite interesting that so I took drama. I was involved in productions [00:10:00] and and did Shakespeare, um, and ironically, played a a very camp, um, teacher character in a year 13 production. And, um, but that was that was sort of like a a celebrated area. So there there was quite, um, different, um, different expectations around, uh, your behaviours in in those contexts versus your behaviour [00:10:30] in and around like the general school yard. Uh, so when there was, you know, there was a bunch of us that played drama. And, of course, there was a some language around that that was, um that was negative, but we were quite strongly staunchly supported by our drama teacher about our identities as as drama students. And so that was that was sort of all the all that we needed there to ensure that we were [00:11:00] comfortable. Um, doing that, which was good. Yeah. And you were saying at 17 that you were kind of, um, coming to terms with with your own kind of sexual identity? How did how did that happen? And and and and you know, were you comfortable with that? Um, yes, II. I was actually I was surprisingly so, um I think the the reality is of I always knew I was different all the way [00:11:30] through school, right from the beginning, And, um, actually having the ability to focus in and say I am gay and have the ability to locate myself in that, and that identity was really, really comforting for me after all those years of of, sort of being lost in that respect. Um, so I was I was straight away, really quite comfortable with it. And it's [00:12:00] interesting looking back that I didn't really have that period of of denial once I was sort of there. I was there, um and I turned the corner straight away, and part of that was through the couple of friends that I told they were really quite comfortable with it straight away and really supportive. And that gave me, uh, that really helped with my self confidence in in ensuring that I could go forward as as a gay man, which is good. [00:12:30] And then then parents followed shortly after, and they were fantastic as well. So and did you actually find that you needed to, like, kind of come out or was it just a matter of just being I mean, did you need did you need Did you feel that you needed to tell people? Yes, I did. And And what was quite interesting? And I was I was reflecting on this just the other day was with someone that had quite the opposite experience, that when they came out, they were just greeted with shrugs. But [00:13:00] in my culture and and the community of friends that I had because I was living in that world where gay just wasn't a thing, it was just that negative thing on the side. We didn't have those peers. They didn't. We didn't have those role models, and as a result, I actually had to battle with some people to convince them that I was actually gay. You know, they were sort of in denial. These are close friends of mine that could not believe that someone that they knew so well was gay because gay just wasn't part of [00:13:30] their world. Um, so I had to educate them as to what that meant, as well as tell them what it was for me. Um, because it just wasn't there. Um, you know, being mentioned once or twice in health class just wasn't enough. And it just wasn't part of the world. It was very interesting. And and alongside of that, there was a lot of myth that I had to, um, break. I remember one friend that I told who immediately asked me whether or not this meant I was going to start dressing up in a woman's clothing and that was that was just something [00:14:00] I had to break down straight away. But that was that's a really intelligent guy who had this weird idea of what it meant just because he didn't have, uh he didn't really have access to that world. And it wasn't part of his culture whatsoever. And that quickly changed. And you were saying at school that it was, um, through health classes that you learned about, um you know, uh, gay was mentioned. Were there Were there any other places [00:14:30] in the school curriculum where kind of homosexual, gay or lesbian or transgender kind of came up I. I don't remember it coming up almost at all. Um um I mean, in my own teaching practise, it comes up all the time through the text that I choose and and whatnot and, um, embracing diversity in in so many ways and also just general topics around talking about same sex partners at school balls or that sort of thing. But when I was at school, [00:15:00] I do. I just do not remember that happening. Um and and that's a That's a shame, because I, I guess those opportunities could have provided me with some triggers or some, uh, something to grasp onto and help me connect with my own identity and I. I can't remember them being there and certainly in health classes when it was mentioned, it was very brief, and it was sort of, um, on the cusp, uh, sort of as if the [00:15:30] funny thing about you know, health teaching and education is that you've got PE teachers that have been given the health curriculum, but often uncomfortable with a number of the things that they have that that then it makes them teach. Um And I think, uh, sexuality and gender identity is is one such thing that gets a complete disservice from that structure. Um, because if you imagine the stereotype of most PE teachers, uh, and then you connect [00:16:00] that with them talking about sexuality and gender identity in today's world. I think there's a real, uh that doesn't quite fit the picture. And that provides a lot of issues when it comes to, um, students getting a lot of this key information through that course. So it's problematic. And so when you were going through school and in those health classes, what was the response? When when kind of gay issues came up the [00:16:30] same thing, it was on the playground. It was all very framed in in quite a negative way. Um, it was it was certainly always other. So it was It was the it was the thing on the side. Um, you know, this thing exists, but you probably won't have to deal with it because you guys are all men, You guys are all boys. And now let's keep talking about sex with girls. And what about gender identity? Was there any mention of gender? [00:17:00] I don't think it ever came up. Um, not from my memory. Anyway, Um, it was No, it's It's certainly not something that I experienced. I don't think in my schooling almost at all. Um, we had some talk around it again. Those negative words. Um, when we framed it up in in drama and there was there was some talk of cross dressing and all of a sudden, um, [00:17:30] you know, the idea of being a trainee was suddenly brought up in, um, in that kind of bullying banter, um, language. But apart from that, I cannot remember ever, ever arising, which is again, a real shame. So 2005 when you were 17 coming out? Uh, that would have been right at the time of civil unions. So we're talking Destiny Church would be enough [00:18:00] was enough. March. Do you recall any of that I? I remember seeing it on TV and in the media and so on. But again, it just it didn't seem connected with my world and the world of my friends and community. Um, it was it was something that was happening off to the side, and I guess III I know I had some thoughts during that and and watching it, but, um but because it was a again, it just didn't have that connection because [00:18:30] it wasn't part of my conversation and because it wasn't part of my discourse and part of the the language that I was using around my friends and family. Uh, it didn't. It wasn't something that I felt particularly connected to. And I guess, you know, looking back, had it been had we been more comfortable talking about, um, you know, neighbours, friends, people in the community that were were gay if we were able to, um, you know, use [00:19:00] more positive language around that and talk about that in a more open way. Then I think that would have opened up the space to maybe connect more with what was going on with with, um, civil unions and all that thing all all that stuff that was going on in the media. But it it just there was a complete disconnect for me. Um, because I didn't have really access to that yet. I wasn't quite there. And what about, um, things like the Internet? I mean, did that play any part in you? Kind of, you know, working out you [00:19:30] where you kind of fitted? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean, at a certain point, um, I started Googling and that that helped a lot. Um, because then suddenly there was this huge world out there that suddenly I had access to. But I, I still it took me a long time to get there. I feel like maybe if in year nine II I could have started Googling that things could have been different. But I just didn't have access to that world. I. I didn't have access [00:20:00] to the language that I needed in order to, uh, start thinking about whether or not that was something I wanted to find out more about. Um, so it took me quite a while to get there. And so it was quite late in my teens that I that I started going into those the depths of the Internet that helped me to discover, um, and connect with with that, um but it it Yeah, it it took a while. And what about local support? I mean, were you aware of kind of youth groups like around Wellington or [00:20:30] maybe within the school, that that that supported that kind of university? There was absolutely nothing we we never had um I. I can't remember anything being talked about at school. I mean, I know a school's out existed and it was there, um but I can't remember it ever coming up in in school or in a way that could have connected me with it at all. We had a guidance counsellor at school, but that's that's a That's a strange thing in [00:21:00] a, um, all boys school with A with a culture around masculinity. Um, and I think there's there's a lot that could have been broken down by having more approachable means to see a guidance counsellor around these issues. But again, I just I just didn't have the language for I didn't have the connection with it, So I didn't seek those opportunities or that help. So how do you think something like a A schools out support group outside of school can [00:21:30] help students that maybe don't have that connection to to the group? How how do they? How do they reach those people? Well, I think the first thing is that we've got to you got to change the language in schools and make it, um, an accepted part of of the discourse that's used within schools, and then they allow us the opportunity for schools out to come speak in an assembly or, uh, someone in the school that that could represent these ideas to speak at Assembly and then make connections with With that, um, one of the key phrases that I've [00:22:00] that I've sort of kept using is that, um, diversity is more than just a poster on the wall. It's actually got to be part of the culture and the philosophy underpinning everything that you do in in that school centre. And at the moment, I think there's there's schools that are doing really well with the posters on the wall. Um, but they need to go much further with that and bring that language into, um, the policies that underpin everything that they do and the language that they use [00:22:30] in schools to actually let um, those outside resources, um, be accessed by by the students that are there. Can you describe the feeling when you kind of finally came out? What was that like? Um, it was it was actually really tough. It was. It was part of the reason why it was tough. It was because it was It was It was framed in a relationship that I that I started, um, [00:23:00] almost straight away, uh, actually with one of my friends who uh, I came out to, um, so that was unexpected. And that went on for a while. And it was a It was a really, uh It was a very negative relationship, but because I had, you know, suddenly come out and I didn't have access to the world around me. I thought there was only one other gay person in the world, and and that was him. And it was It was extremely harmful when it became [00:23:30] bad for a whole number of reasons. And I guess it was actually after I left that relationship, um, and and moved on from there that I finally felt that elation of, um, of self acceptance around my identity and who I was and what that meant. And all of a sudden there was there was a world out there that I could access, and, um, and things changed from then on. So it was certainly a huge feeling of positivity once, [00:24:00] once I got the shackles off of of of that stuff. Yeah. And then what? What was it like at university? Because I I've heard kind of varying accounts of that university is is very kind of open in terms of the diversity, but also, it can actually be really homophobic. How did you find it? I think I experienced both. I found, um, I. I didn't end up, uh, using uniq, um, which was at Victoria University. [00:24:30] They they've got a a cool structure there, and it works for some people. But I found that it was, um quite, uh, it was It was a very strict community, and I didn't When when I made an attempt at this was a very hard hearted attempt. I have to be have to be a little bit hard on myself there. But when I made an attempt to be there, I just felt like it was it was a gated community, and I didn't quite belong in there, so I didn't [00:25:00] keep going along, and that was fine. But, um, I started meeting a whole lot of people outside of that, and, um, I I gained some some friends through there. I gained some relationships, and I, um, generally just found the world just outside my close group of friends. Um, and it was an extremely accepting and, um, fantastic world. Um, but I, I think I also met some people that were [00:25:30] very judgmental and, um, very strict in the way that they saw me expressing my sexuality and perhaps didn't didn't find that as, um as fine as as many other people there was. There was there were two sides to that. So I think I think what I'm trying to refer to there is that, um the homophobia is it was sometimes from from people that were also identifying as gay [00:26:00] and, um, some some strict rules that I wasn't adhering to. Um, and around the presentation of my sexuality, that was that was quite interesting to to experience that. Can you give me an example? Oh, just like close. Um, you know, whether or not you went to, um, a gay club or whether or not you went out with your straight friends And, um, it was Yeah, there was some quite judgmental opinions that I that I encountered from time [00:26:30] to time, but I took them all with a grain of salt and kept on ploughing through with my own personal sense of self. Do you have any thoughts about how groups say, like uniq or or or any any group, um, in the communities could um, be less closed in terms of, you know how How do you make it more open to people so that they feel accepted that there's a So you're not actually shutting the door [00:27:00] on people? Yeah, it's It's a tough one. I mean, I've I feel like it's there is there is two sides of the coin. There's there's what I experienced in, um, and when I went along to uni. But there's also what I experience with, um, inside out today, Um, where where I'm working with them and seeing what they do when new people come along and just the the way that they treat everybody with so much respect and, um, [00:27:30] and work so hard to make connections straight away by, um, embracing, uh people for who they are and and what they bring to the table. And there's there's a real culture shift that, um that I've seen from from those two experiences. And it's, uh, there's so much willingness to treat people with respect and, um, really mhm really respect their identity and all the ideas that they're bringing and I I really [00:28:00] like that model. So I think it's it's just a case of being open to to new and being happy to have those conversations at the door, um, and bring them into the space and and really welcoming ways, but also make connections outside that and be visible in as many places as possible so that those people can come through the door. So from university and studying film, media and English, you you decide to go to teaching college teachers college And what is Teachers college [00:28:30] like, um, for an openly out gay man? Well, that's the funny thing about, um, about these different stages of life. Because I I while I was an openly out gay man, I still had to come out at every stage of the of the process. It's something that I always find fascinating explaining to straight people that, um that coming out is not a one time thing and that it's a constant [00:29:00] the thing that happens all the time. And I'm making decisions just about every day about whether or not I come out to a new person or a new situation. And often I'm making the decision not to, um, because I can't be bothered or there might be a safety question or it's or it's just not the right time and place, um, but often that often I am at some point saying he or or saying something that, um, that reveals [00:29:30] that. And at Teachers College, it took me quite a while. There was there was quite a I don't know, an expect or yeah, it's a heteronormative environment. It's it's a lot of people made expectations. Um, and I think that reflected the teaching profession, um, as a as a whole, which is which is quite heteronormative. And there's there's not so much spaces for, um, diversity within teaching. [00:30:00] Sure, we'll get to that in a moment. And I, I think it teaches college. While there was so much good will and once the once the word got out or once, um, it had come up a few times, it was absolutely fine. And everyone was extremely accepting. And, um, and absolutely open open to that. Um, but it it took a while to fit in teachers college. I'm not I'm not entirely sure why actually, looking back, um, but there was [00:30:30] Yeah, It took a while for it. To all feel is safe and good again. Um, it was a completely new environment. Barely knew anyone at Teachers College. And then once, we kind of formed our community once, once all our personal lives, it had started to be revealed to one another. It was it was good, but it it took a while. And throughout teacher's college. Uh, were were there any support groups? Were there any, uh, no, Nothing specific? Um, nothing specific that I encountered. I think uniq still has [00:31:00] the overarching connection for for anyone that's at Victoria University. Um, the teacher's college is technically part of Victoria, but it was based up in, um and but no, I wasn't accessing anything like that or doing anything along those lines, so no, it was wasn't really there. I mean, do you think that would be AAA? Good thing. Definitely, definitely. And the other aspect of that that, um, working on at the moment is actually bringing, [00:31:30] um, diversity teaching as part of the curriculum that they that they use at Teachers College. So we didn't have anything about, um, you know, teaching, um, diverse students. There was nothing specific about, um, LGBTI issues, and there is an enormous space that that needs to be plugged for for that kind of stuff. And, um, I'm chatting to a few lecturers now, um, about the potential of doing [00:32:00] that kind of work and and bringing in some outside voices in order to actually start talking about that because it's coming increasingly important, given that there's so many more students that are, um that are that are coming out in class and also involving teachers in those conversations. So the teachers need to be trained and aware of of that and how to deal with those situations. So you were going through teaching college In what year? Uh, that would have been 2009. [00:32:30] Yes, 2009. So, still, at that time, was there anything in the curriculum about rainbow Communities apart from the health curriculum? Uh, no. And at that stage, the the health curriculum, the, um, sexuality education guidelines were extremely outdated. Uh, and that was that's just another problem off the side. But then there was nothing specific that I can remember ever coming up, um, along the lines of anything at [00:33:00] teachers college specifically relating to diversity at all. So it was very much focused on teaching philosophy and um, teaching theory and and the pedagogy and behind it wasn't they didn't really open up the space for for talking about that stuff. Um, it's a one year course, it's full on, and, um, it's important for it to be in there, but it wasn't at that stage. Yeah, I'm just kind of thinking, [00:33:30] Why not? And II, I guess time constraints are one thing. But is it? I mean, it's hard to get stuff into that teaching environment. Or is it? There's just not there's not a will to have it there or the the conversation that I'm having now. There is certainly a will, Um, I think that what what might get in the way is is, um well, there's so little time and courses are so much full already and there's there's I [00:34:00] mean, I guess there's a lot of there's a lot of power plays that goes on in behind the scenes. I'd imagine between lecturers in order to get a particular content valued above other content and how much time you get for this and how much time you get for that, I'm sure, is a constant conversation. Um, so the more that this kind of conversation happens. And the more, um, the the wider fear opens up to talking [00:34:30] about diversity and particularly diversity in education, the more likely it is that that teachers college will listen to that and and make it happen. But I know like, um, I'm involved in the PPT a rainbow task force. Can we do, uh, presentations PD presentations to, um, staff rooms about, um, running safe schools for all that that, um, embrace and include and celebrate diversity. And we've managed to get that, [00:35:00] uh, presentation into, um Waikato. So that's that's a start. And I'm sure other universities will follow in due course. But it is. It is something that that, I think is is missing. And maybe there are reasons I'm not aware of, but it's a shame. So talk to me about, um, that first time you're at school and, um, you have to navigate that whole kind of coming out. Do I come out? Do I not [00:35:30] OK? Well, that was that was a shame. Um, because it came up when I was at a on a teaching placement and I was being observed teaching by my associate teacher, and I cannot remember the specific moment. I definitely remember what happened afterwards, but what happened to trigger it was I had made some comment or did some gesture that was perceived as camp or somehow [00:36:00] revealing. And my associate teacher, who knew I was gay took me aside afterwards and sort of angrily challenged me on the fact that I had revealed who I was, and that was none of the students business. And I wasn't to do that, and that was quite jarring. And it was probably the first time I've ever had that sort of, um, real strong message to suppress who I was, Um, from [00:36:30] someone that I really trusted And that was that was a big moment for me because it it it could have inspired me to really, um, really fight against that perception and rise up and say, No, you will not. You will not suppress my identity. My identity is important to me and it's important to the students that I teach. But no, I went. I went very quiet at that point, and I I was [00:37:00] really, really, um affected by that moment and that stayed with me for a number of years and I think inspired me inspires the wrong word. But it really led to me being, uh, quite closeted in the classroom in those first few years that I taught because I was sort of under this cloud that that it sounds silly now. But I, I did feel [00:37:30] like she was right in some way that I wasn't to reveal that side of myself, and that would make it dangerous for me and those students. And so I took a huge backward step. On the basis of that and I, I chose to tell myself that I would be I would not tell them, but I wouldn't lie either. And if they were to ask me directly, [00:38:00] I wouldn't. I would probably try and avoid the question, or that's what I had in my head anyway. And that's that to me, caught me off the hook and made me feel like I wasn't going to be lying. But I know now looking back, that was that. I was lying. I was. It was just another form of lying, and it was such a shame that I spent those first few years of of my teaching practise, um, trying to keep that hidden from the students. And they knew they all knew [00:38:30] well, not all of them. But, you know, they they could figure some things out. And even if they didn't know exactly what was going on, I mean, they would have had an inkling. Um, and it's it's not something that you can completely hide. I mean, they're they're interested. They ask you personal questions all the time and not specifically on that. I never got the question. Are you gay? Um, but, you know, they they could figure it out if they put two and two together. And why do you say it would have been dangerous to you and the students? That's [00:39:00] that's what was given to me by that associate teacher that I was putting myself at risk. Um, and I think that reflected the the school culture of of that school that I was doing that teaching, uh, teaching experience at, um and because basically, in order to be out of school, you have to have the backing of senior management, and you have to have them willing to stand in for you. Um, for that parent that makes a complaint or or that student [00:39:30] who, um, says something that, um that is harassment or or bullying or or anything that comes up or the colleagues or anything. You have to have a senior management that's willing to back you. And I know from the experience that I had of seven weeks at that school, that's not a place where that would have happened. And I think that her comments reflected that environment. Um, and that's not true of all schools. But it was true for the moment there, [00:40:00] and those were kind of persuasive thoughts which stayed with me for a long time. And it was all gave me a lot of baggage, which I didn't deal with particularly well. I think one of the reasons was that I I didn't really talk to anyone about it, and I didn't really navigate my way through it openly. Um, I just sort of put it on my shoulders and and went on with with teaching, convinced that I would I could still [00:40:30] be a good teacher without being true to myself, I guess. Does it make you mad to even have that have have to have that conscious thought of Do I suppress this part? of my personality or not. I mean, for heterosexual teachers. I'm sure they're not even thinking like that. I know. I know. It's It does make me mad. It does. Um, but I guess where I'm at now is I've navigated my way through that and I, I see very much [00:41:00] my role now as, um, helping others to not have that experience and to actually really be open and true to themselves. Um, in teaching environments where with that sort of thing just doesn't happen. Um, it's it's really hard, because, I mean, the irony of it was was that this associate teacher was talking to me. I mean, the all the kids in the class knew [00:41:30] her husband's name, knew her kids, could tell you details about them. That was something that was openly shared and happy with. But the part of my identity that, um, revealed that, um, I can't remember whether they had a boyfriend at the time, but or or something like that, um couldn't be shared with them that that's just wrong. That's just truly and utterly wrong. And it's such a double standard, and I'm just I'm gutted that it [00:42:00] impacted me so much looking back. So do you think Rainbow teachers offer something different to the two classes? Yes and no. Um, yes, because they do offer a difference. And, um, a way of normalising, um, a perceived difference. Um, and they [00:42:30] by being open about it, they can really help. And, um, yeah, help. Help students to to kind of embrace diversity and become aware of it and see it as as just another thing. And no, because I believe that every teacher is a teacher of diversity and it shouldn't You shouldn't just have to be, um, gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender to [00:43:00] be a advocate for, um, for LGBTI people as students staff in the classroom. It should be every teacher as a teacher of diversity. And every teacher should be capable of talking about these things and framing them in positive terms so that they can lead, uh, lead the way in terms of getting diversity embraced by all students in a culture that that supports everyone in all [00:43:30] identities. So we do have something special to offer, but ultimately, at the end of the day, I would really like it to be every teacher that offers that those positive messages a few years ago. Well, actually, at the turn of last century. Um, so we're talking about a 15 II. I did a, um, a little documentary on, um, rainbow Education. And in that I think one of the teachers said they would not. [00:44:00] They they didn't have any gay students come to them because the gay students didn't want to be tarred with the same brush. Does that happen still? Or is that Is that a thing of the past? Um, not not in my context. Um, I think that well, well, there's two things like I mean, we we run our diversity group. And I'm, um, one of the co facilitators of there. And we we coordinate its its day to day work. And also, the students have come to [00:44:30] me directly or come to the other teachers involved directly. And so there's not that, uh, not the sort of stigmas attached to to that per se. However, there are other students in the school who are out and happy to be out and not involved with us in any specific way. So I don't think the reason for that is, though being tar with the same brush, and being part of that community is, in some way, um, perceived as a negative thing. I think that some people don't need that [00:45:00] kind of community. Might get enough support from their friends or or their family or, um, outside of that. But I certainly like to think our existence helps them in in some way, shape or form in terms of, um, helping the school community to sort of embrace that culture and and be more open with people that are out in the school. So are there a number of rainbow teachers at at Newlands? Yes. Yes. We are really lucky to have a community of us. Um, [00:45:30] we're we're very lucky that, uh, Deputy principal, um, David Pegram is is a, um is out and, um, very much a sort of leader for the whole school in in this regard. And he was one of the key people, um, for me in coming to the school and getting rid of that baggage that I'd come in with and learning to kind of, um [00:46:00] self accept. And I remember one conversation I had with him when I was we were talking about what would happen if I was asked if I was gay and I'd say, Well, what if I I think my response would be to say, Now is not the time to ask that we want to deal with this learning. We're focusing on this, but after class, you can You can do that. And I thought that that was, um, fine. But his response to [00:46:30] that was, um, that's wrong. What you are doing there is that you are saying to that person that or the person in the back of the class that you're not happy to answer that question and the person in the back of the class who might be dealing with their own sexuality is reading your your lack of openness to deal with that question as meaning that your sexuality is somehow other or different, or has some sort of negative terms around it. He really challenged me on [00:47:00] that, and that was that was quite a key moment to turn that around. So there's him. Um, there's also a number of others. Um, there's there's Kirsty, who runs the the group with us, Um, but also other, um out teachers who, um, are happy enough to be out, um, be known to be and and that's really great. It's a great community of us. We're all very different. But, um, it's it's fantastic that there is. [00:47:30] There is a group of us and and there should be at just about every school as well. Just a question of whether or not they're as open as as what we are, because we've got that that strong culture that's led from the top. Do you think there are teachers or support staff that are possibly rainbow but aren't out? I mean, do you Do you think there are still people in the closet at New? I don't I don't think so. Um, I think we've We've got [00:48:00] such a positive environment that it's, um it's likely that we are. We're providing the best possible opportunity, uh, to come out. So if there are, there are people that are that are still closeted. I'd say that's because of, um, a range of other issues that we we have no control over. But certainly the culture and the the spaces is extremely safe. So, um, I'd be surprised if there were, um, anyone that was significantly suppressing something, [00:48:30] given the work environment that we've got. So talk to me about the the diversity group. How did that come about? It came about when, um, I became a dean about four years ago, and, um, in that process, I became quite connected with a with A with 100 and 90 odd students who I was responsible for their pastoral care and, um, a lot of administration around their learning. [00:49:00] And as a result, that connection opened up a lot more conversations that were quite close to, um, supporting them, dealing with a whole number of different issues. And one of the issues that came up was, um for for a student was, um that he was identifying as gay. And, um, we ended up talking about it and I. I don't know whether he just saw me as an ally or I was in the right place at the right time or um or whatever. But just that conversation that [00:49:30] I had with him really was a huge trigger point for me in terms of spurring a whole lot of action that I really realised was necessary. And it was like, you know, the school has has had lots of support going on, sort of in an ad hoc kind of way. But it didn't have at any point sort of something that was publicly present and something that the whole school could uh, look [00:50:00] to as something that represented that these LGBTI plus people were supported in this model. Uh, so we needed something structural that was in place. So that's when we sort of started this. These conversations around forming a diversity group. We had a really supportive guidance counsellor, um, who was just absolutely awesome to work with. And she supported, um us to connect with a whole bunch of students that she was working with. And then we had a small [00:50:30] group that was suddenly meeting on a regular basis, um, to talk about things without, without all those stigmas that they felt were sometimes there amongst their friends and in the playground. And we connected them with each other, which I think was really important. Like I could see the journeys that were going on, where things that other people were also experiencing. And then we just grew and grew and grew from there. Um and then one of the key moments was [00:51:00] actually getting up at school. Uh, Kirsty and I delivered an assembly presentation, and this was this was a very key moment, because it is where I came out to the whole school. Um, and as did Kirsty by sort of saying that, um, you know, people of diverse sexualities and genders that are all around you. Um, there might be some people in your neighbourhood in your community. There are might be some people in the in this hall, and they are also here speaking [00:51:30] to you today, and that was a moment to say, Um, I'm a gay man and she's a lesbian woman. And we did that to the whole school and got this amazing response. Um, that was followed up. I taught my year 13 class afterwards, and they said I came over to the class late. I need a moment after the assembly. And when I walked into the class, they all formed a line around the door and did this big kind of clapping thing, which was just ridiculous. [00:52:00] I'll never forget that. That feeling of of going into that space like that, um they were incredible. And yeah, they were just I sort of I guess acknowledging, Um, first of all the bravery behind that, but just how, On board with the messages, they were as well. Yeah, I'm interested in language and why you use diversity as the name of the group. Like a diversity group rather than like LGBTI or Queer Strait alliance. What [00:52:30] is behind that? The question of language. Oh, this is a debate that we have all the time. Um, we really struggled in the group to come up with a name that represents us. And we've debated this on and on and on. We've come up with all sorts of different, um, permutations of of letters and and words and names and some names that were completely irrelevant [00:53:00] That would have solved the issue by being nothing that misrepresented anyone. Um, so we you know, we've really struggled with that. But diversity just seems to be the word that stuck, and we've just kept going with it, So we still really haven't formalised a name. Um, but diversity is something that I'm I'm quite comfortable with because I think it it has a strong connection with the New Zealand curriculum. So when I talk about it with other colleagues, and staff or, [00:53:30] um, other teachers from other schools. And what not diversity is something that is one of the key principles of of a New Zealand curriculum. And it encompasses, uh, students, um, that identify as diverse, and the ministry often use it to talk about diversity in terms of ethnicity, and they often leave it at that. Um and that's that's a bit disappointing, but I think we're we're moving closer and closer to a time where we're going to have, um, Diversity [00:54:00] is embracing proper diversity of every single individual student's identity. And at that point, maybe we can go back to being something more specific. That recognises LGBTI, um, and something that is more, um, reflective of a particular difference. But it's it's just I find language fascinating, and I'm I'm keen to keep going with that [00:54:30] debate. Um, and I'm constantly aware that I might be making mistakes around that in terms of maybe exclusion when I'm not meaning to. But it's something that yeah, it's just part of the conversation and and needs to be part of that conversation in order to get it right. What? What are the kind of words that, um young people now are using to, um, describe themselves. I mean, you you're using words like gay and things like that. So, I mean, what are what are young people [00:55:00] saying? I'm learning new ones. Just about every week we've got, um we've got a group of a very big range of of identities. Um, but I guess that well, there's two things on that matter. 11 is the fact that what we've got is a bunch of people that actually don't [00:55:30] necessarily care about what it is that they identify as, and they don't necessarily, um, promote their their word or or their identity. Um, actively. So there are some people in the groups that are diverse in some way, shape or form. Um, and it might be in terms of their sexuality or gender, but they're not parading around the world that connects to them, um, in any way where everyone has to connect with with that word, but the the other. The other point I make that matter [00:56:00] that certainly come up through the group is that, um, other staff and colleagues, they sort of commented that, you know, there's a new identity coming out every every day. Um, how can we keep track of this? All this is this is all new. Can't they just be gay? Straight, Bisexual? Trans, you know, keep it simple, guys. Um, and the response I always have to That is, actually all all these diverse identities and all these [00:56:30] diverse words are there. Um, if if they come up, it's it's completely safe to ask them about what that identity means and find out more about what that is. And if that person doesn't want to share that, then they won't share it. It's not a problem. But if if you come across a word which you're not familiar with, it's fine to have a conversation about it. It doesn't need to be a scary thing that's completely otherworldly. Um, it just needs to be part of someone's ongoing professional development, [00:57:00] really. And keep asking the questions and you'll learn. And I guess it also kind of leads into using pronouns and what pronouns to use as well. Exactly. So we do have that issue at school. We've we've got a number of people, um, that that use the pronouns which the heteronormative teachers don't expect. Um and that challenges some people, um, a lot. And [00:57:30] and then there's some English teachers who are really up in arms about the their, um, their day and that that's that's problematic. But, um, the right conversations are happening in order to make that change take place. And it's it's just about framing those conversations in positive ways that actually celebrate the identity rather than, um talking about it as being right and [00:58:00] wrong, like it's OK to make mistakes. I think this is one of the things that teachers find hardest is that they fear that by making a mistake, they will have caused irrevocable damage. And it's not true. You, you can make mistakes and the the students that I'm working with, one of the things that we've worked with them about is what to do when someone does make a mistake and does misrepresent them in some way, shape or form. And it's using that as a learning opportunity rather than getting offended [00:58:30] or, um, thinking that it was a deliberate form of bullying which it can be. And there are instances that have come up, um, in terms of peer to peer bullying, where where, um, using the wrong pronouns has has been deliberately done to bully a student. But in the in the most cases, most people just need to know and just need help to understand. Um, because it is new for a whole lot of these teachers that [00:59:00] have been teaching a long time, and that's a hard one to sort of change all of a sudden. So give me an example. Say, for instance, um, that a teacher uses the wrong pronoun. What? What advice do you then give to the student or the teacher? Uh, it's it's just to challenge that first of all, like we don't let it pass. Um, so you you would suggest to the student to challenge it in the classroom, but in a polite way. [00:59:30] I mean, so it depends on the context. Sometimes there might be, you know, teaching the whole class and a teacher. Um, you know, a big class discussion and a teacher might use the wrong pronoun. The reality is, most of the students in the class are probably gonna know they've used the wrong pronoun. So there's probably someone else that's actually gonna step in there and say something. Um, but more likely they're not, um it it's gonna the conversation is gonna move so quickly. It doesn't doesn't [01:00:00] get acknowledged at that point. But my advice to the the students is always to make sure that the teachers are aware of what they did, Um, so that they can get it right the next time. Um, because most of the time, if they're not aware, then well, it's not gonna change. But the other thing that that more often happens than not is actually as soon as when this happens to me. When? When? Whenever I've used the wrong pronouns, it's often after it leaves my mouth that I immediately [01:00:30] realised, and I have to come back and acknowledge it straight away. Um, so usually there's most people are sort of aware of what they've done as soon as they've done it so they can fix it themselves. And do you find that students other students will will actually kind of, um, go into bat for Yeah. Yeah, so? So there's a lot. There's there's kind of protection there, you know, people back each other up. Definitely, definitely. And that's that's the thing about this. This young generation [01:01:00] there is so much goodwill and so much, um, openness to being different. Well, I mean, nothing's changed in terms of bullying. There's there's still that sort of stuff that's out there. But on the whole, this young generation, they are extremely keen on, um, understanding difference and embracing whatever that difference is in some way, shape or form. Um, you know, [01:01:30] there's a lot of friends that are really, really good for the students that that do come out as as something Um, yeah, we're We're very lucky to have, like lots of supportive friend networks. And just generally, on the whole, this is this is the idea of the school culture that's lead from the top. Um, it's It's in place where everything's framed up in positive terms around diversity. And as a result, when bullying happens, it's acted [01:02:00] upon. Um, when someone comes out, they're supported. Um, and that just feeds down all the way through the school. Is there a difference? Do you see a difference between bullying and homophobic? Transphobic biphobic, intersex bullying? Yes and no. Like I. I feel like I My personal experience is that we don't have homophobia [01:02:30] biphobia transphobia we we don't actually have it come up a lot. Um, and I know there are schools that experience a lot more, and as a result, there's there's probably more that other schools could could tell you about that. But I I think bullying is all very similar in in many different ways in whatever form it takes. It's about, [01:03:00] um, it's about identifying a weakness and, um, praying on that weakness and and some way, shape or form. And so, essentially, it's it's all, I guess, very similar. But we are. We're really lucky that, um, we do have a a very safe environment where we can actually act on this stuff when it comes up. And how do you act on it? [01:03:30] Uh, we talk to the person that has has done this bad thing. Um, and often a conversation is all it needs, and it's about identifying the wrong. That's done. Um, how the victim feels and what what was the root of the comment that was made? Um, and then in doing so that either stops or or there can be punitive ventures that come down the track if it [01:04:00] if it comes up more often, Um, but we're also very lucky that a lot of, um, students monitor each other, and there's a lot of students that will step in place and do that work for the teachers in many way shapes or forms. Um, sometimes in ways that makes it worse. But, um, most of the time it's it's for the right reasons, and it has a positive effect. And what about bullying of, of teachers and staff? I mean, do you find that [01:04:30] you're bullied either by other staff or by some of the students? No, not at all. And I've never had an a negative comment made to me. Um, since being completely open with my identity, Um, I've I've never experienced anything that was that was homophobic, um, or anything that I would perceive as as bullying. Um, I'm sure there's been things said behind my back. I'm sure someone's posted [01:05:00] something on Facebook at some point or another. Um, but I don't think I I just haven't experienced anything to my face. And that's again, a reflection of the school culture that's that's lead from the top. So in the Diversity group, what are some of the kind of current issues that are being discussed? Um one of the key ones is parents. Um, coming out to the parents is is an extremely hard process for, um, a number of of students. [01:05:30] And there's all sorts of things that they get in the way there, Um, and navigating that is quite interesting. Um, so helping students through what that conversation might be like, Um, how to do it in a in a you know, positive, safe way, Um, safety plans for if, if things go wrong, Um, just talking through [01:06:00] we haven't done any role plays, but I guess that's probably the next thing that might come to mind. But, um, often, just that once you get these topics started, the students are just talking to each other about, um their different experiences and what their thoughts are and and what their friend from another school experienced. And what this, um, what they saw online about this thing and and whatnot. Um, and it's all very positive things to have those conversations where whereby there's no sort of stigmas [01:06:30] attached. They can say what they want about the issues without having anyone being judgmental or anything like that. So they, um, yeah, parents is, is is quite a big thing. Um, there's also a bit of conversation about how, um, religion fits into the picture. Um, we do have, you know, a significant religious community out in, out in nuance, and that's that's something [01:07:00] that, um, needs to be navigated. It's with a lot of goodwill, and there's a lot of openness to that, um out there, which is which is really good. Um, but also, a lot of our conversations are, um, in around how to grow the school culture and what to do. So we're we're looking at going from a diversity group, which one has to identify and access the group. And it's it's in secret [01:07:30] because there are a number of students in there that are not out, um, to many or anybody. Um, apart from the people that are in the group. So we we keep it a secret to make sure we're supporting those students that that come into it. Um, but we want to develop into a quest. Straight alliance. Um, it's something that anyone in the school can participate in, and it just be part of continuing that culture of, um, opening up spaces to talk without any stigmas [01:08:00] and, um, you know, open and accepting environments that that the straight students can access, as well as, um as well as the the queer or or gender diverse students. And then as a result, it's just about increasing the openness and the visibility of of those students and those issues, um, so that they can be part of the conversation. And within the school itself. What What kind of issues are kind of cropping up? Um, in the domestic [01:08:30] group, I I'm thinking of things like, um, there's been some newspaper coverage of, uh, gender neutral toilets. Things like that. Definitely so. Gender neutral toilets and gender neutral uniforms are, um, the two biggies And, um, the group has talked a lot about that. And, um, they've talked a lot about how they might make change, and they definitely want to change. [01:09:00] Um, and I'm I'm very careful about my involvement in those conversations, As I think if that change is gonna happen to be by the students, it's for the students. And, um, I think my position as a teacher enforcing the rules that are currently in place is is brings attention into that. Um, but the students are definitely talking about. They definitely want it. And they, um, are very keen to to make it happen in some shape or form [01:09:30] and and coming from the students, I mean, that must lead to a a real sense of empowerment that they actually can affect change? Absolutely. Um, absolutely. And that's where the best kind of change can happen. The the ones that are actually driven by the needs of the students and that come from the students and that lead from the students. Like the examples that we've seen in Wellington high and on. So, um, they have definitely been led by the students in, um, significant ways, and that's really positive. I think that's the right way of doing [01:10:00] it. Um, I'm really, um it's fantastic to see See what's happened there. Um, and I definitely think I definitely hope that new ones won't be too far behind. Has, uh, working with the diversity group has that given you kind of, um uh, connections with with with other groups, things like kind of schools out or or or similar? Definitely. I've had, uh, a couple of opportunities that have popped [01:10:30] up from there like, uh being a member on the PPT a rainbow task force. Uh, but also, I've become involved in, um, inside out as well and working with them. Um, I'm an executive advisor on their board, and they do some fantastic initiatives around, um, supporting, uh, schools to be safer places for, um, for students of, um, diverse, uh, sexuality, sexes, and genders. And they [01:11:00] do initiatives like, um, the day of Silence, which has had a huge uptake in, um, New Zealand schools and hopefully will continue to grow this year. Um, but also youth who, Which was on last weekend, which had, um I think about 100 and 50 people come together from all part of of New Zealand and take some workshops and, um, some great networking and support for for students that are going through, um, various things And, um, really, really great positive [01:11:30] environment to, um, support all those youth. Um, but they're just a great organisation, which has the philosophy of youth working for youth. And I'm really on board with that message because, um, like I was saying about why I came into teaching, I really do feel like the young people that we are teaching have the ability to make change if we believe in them and give them the environments where they can. And inside out is a great example of that, um, started up by [01:12:00] be and turned into just a beautiful organisation which is doing so much to help, um, schools and the wider community. I came across you and the diversity group, Um, because there was a quite a a large piece on TV If you you were part of a current affairs story. Uh, how was that? How how was it to to to be filmed and how was how was it received? [01:12:30] Um, that was a fascinating experience. Yes. Uh, that came about because, um, Hayden Jones the reporter had done a piece about, um, Robbie Mason, Um who was a who had come out as, um, as gay and was a role I think he was training for, um, he was in the Olympic training squad at the time of the story. Um, so an out professional sports person, that was, [01:13:00] um it was a really lovely piece, and he got really positive response to that. So he was looking for some sort of follow up story that the same kind of thing. And so he eventually tracked me down through, um, the PPT a task force. Um, and they got him in touch with me. And we got everything into action, um, and navigated a few hurdles in terms of, um, privacy around the kids and who could be involved in what sort [01:13:30] of things needed to happen and whether or not the school was the right school to do that. And then we had a day of of filming and, um shot the piece, which was which was really positive. And I'm I'm really glad it's out there. Um, and I've done as much as I can to circulate what I think the limitations and what the missing bits of the story were, um, and I. I mean, one of the things I was disappointed that despite all the things that I talked about in terms of gender and gender identity [01:14:00] that it was missing, it really was about the L and the G and the LGBTI. And there's there's a much wider world out there. Um, and the story, while it was really great for the L and the G, um, there's there's much more to the much more to the picture. And so we we had the day of filming the the, um the story aired, um, boarded by some very interesting comments by Mike Hosking. [01:14:30] And then the emails have been flooding and and I'm still getting the odd thing, um, from all sorts of places. And so what was really interesting is just how wide, um, the net has been spread from from doing that in the mainstream media, Um, and from the huge range of people that I've been contacted by, um, from ex students, um, who have since come out, Um, and, you know, an ex student who, um, was a girl [01:15:00] when I taught her and is now identifies as a boy. Um, and it's really interesting that, um, so many parents have got in touch. Um, parents that have, um, you know, a gay son is one of the ones. I'm thinking of a colleague who who works at the school, who has a gay son who didn't come out till very late in life and just how much the story impacted her. Um, as [01:15:30] soon as the story aired, um, I was at my parents to watch it. And we got a phone call from, um, my dad's colleague, who he hadn't talked to for a huge number of years who came up basically on tears on the phone because his son had come out as gay. Um, recently and he found that really hard. And he basically said that a story like this, he needed to see this earlier, and he's so he was quite emotional. Um, so you know, the the Net has been cast in a really wide [01:16:00] way, and it's great that that the story has impacted so many people. So I'm very, very proud that it's out there. How do you personally deal with that kind of flood of of response? Because I imagine if you weren't expecting it, something to I don't want to do it every day, that's for sure. Um, I mean, it was it was really humbling. So, um, I guess you know so much positive reinforcement that the work that I've [01:16:30] been doing and and what I'm fighting for is is something that people are supporting and people think of the right thing. And that's that's really cool. Um, it's yeah, really, really cool. So that was That was nice. And, um, it just took time. I've replied to everyone, I think, Um and it was It was really nice to to Yeah, have that that happened. It was really, really cool. [01:17:00] Um, but completely overwhelming. It was really, really full of just how how much? Um, it just how many people have contacted me and and just how wide that actually was. I. I didn't expect it to do so much, but apparently a lot of people watch seven sharp. It was the first time I watched it. So And are you able to use that? That that that kind of exposure and [01:17:30] and springboard off it in in some way, is it? Um, yeah, there's a few few things that that, um, I've got going on. So from that I've managed to have these conversations with Victoria University and trying to get, um, something going going on in in schools. Um, I've had a huge uptake, and I run a Facebook page, um, called Rainbow Teachers NZ, where I'm constantly posting links about, um, diversity, teaching in the classroom and everything that relates to, um, being leaders in your school. [01:18:00] Um, and around these issues, and, um, that's that's increased in in likes dramatically. So I've been trying to be very active in making sure the links that have followed that story have been really positive. Um, I got some attention from the UK from our teacher dot org, and, um asked me to write an article which I I've posted up there, Um, which, which was really cool. I'm not sure how much of, [01:18:30] um, the online content I've got is because of because of that. Um, but that was that was really cool. And just Yeah, um I, I think that what I said or what I've said following the story is that if I could do this kind of work full time, if someone could give me a job where I could, you know, coordinate, um, various schools and their initiatives that are around diversity teaching or, um, be a traveller that, [01:19:00] um that went into into schools and evaluated and assessed how how well they were, uh, doing this gave them some sort of frameworks and some sort of measures for what they were doing to to make sure that well, the LGBTI plus students are are safe for for a start and, um, that they're supported. Um, you know, I'd love to do that kind of work. Um, but I think at this point, doing that kind of story and doing the work that I'm [01:19:30] doing at New College is is enough for me now. Um, but later on down the line, I'm I'm certainly going to be, um, pushing more because III I do want change to happen, and I'll look for the best ways of making that change.

IRN: 1039
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089744
TITLE: Emma Jean Kelly - remembering Jonathan Dennis
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VOICES: Emma-Jean Kelly
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1950s; 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; 2010s; A Day Without Art (radio); Amamus Theatre Group; Anti Springbok tour protest (1981); Aoraki Mount Cook; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland University of Technology; Australia; Barry Barclay; Bastion Point; Blue (film, Derek Jarman); Boy (film, Taika Waititi); Bruno Lawrence; Centenary of Cinema (radio); Chris Brickell; Christchurch; Clive Sowry; Derek Jarman; Elizabeth Alley; Emma-Jean Kelly; Ferry Hendriks; Film Society; Goodbye Pork Pie (film); HIV / AIDS; Hermitage Hotel; Homosexual Law Reform Society; Italy; Janet Frame; Jason King; Jonathan Dennis; Lillian Gish; Lindsay Shelton; Long Loop Home: A Memoir by Peter Wells; Malcolm McKinnon; Manu Tuturu (book); Mates and Lovers: A History of Gay New Zealand (book); Melbourne; Merata Mita; Michel Foucault; Māori; National Library of New Zealand; New Zealand Film Archive; New Zealand Herald; Nga Tamatoa; Ngā Taonga Sound and Vision; Patu! (film); Peter Wells; Pordenone film festival; Radio New Zealand; Radio New Zealand Concert; Radio New Zealand National; Roger Horrocks; Ron O'Reilly; Rotorua; Sam Neill; Sergei Eisenstein; Sergio Toffetti; Springbok rugby tour (1981); Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington; Te Māori exhibition; Te Reo Māori; The Adventures of Jonathan Dennis (book); The Devils Pit (aka Under the Southern Cross); The Film and Television School New Zealand; The History of Sexuality (book); Tiriti o Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi; Toss Woollaston; Valance Smith; Wellington; Whina Cooper; Witarina Harris; activism; archives; biculturalism; biography; blood; boarding school; camp; clothing; conservative; cricket; dolls; exhibition; family; feminism; film; film festival; friends; gay; growing up; heteronormativity; homophobia; homosexual law reform; identity; imagination; indigenous peoples; indigenous rights; introversion; invisibility; love; marae; march; masculinity; media; national identity; parents; pervert; photography; queer; queer bashing; queer theory; radio; resilience; sex; sexual orientation; sexuality; shooting; silent film; sport; subversion; taonga; te kohanga reo; teeth; verbal abuse; visibility; voice
DATE: 30 April 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: What drew you to research? Jonathan Dennis. A huge amount of things sort of came together at the same time. So I'd worked at the New Zealand Herald as an image archivist, and I've been looking at the collection in the basement of those beautiful old glass plate negatives and lots of them were of Maori people and they had and dressed in traditional costumes. And I thought, Who are these people? None of them are catalogued. There's no information about them. Do I know if they are dressed [00:00:30] in their traditional actual, you know, outfits of the day? Or are they dressed for the camera? I know nothing. So I started asking my boss, you know, who are these people and should we be doing something with these images, and can we digitise them and share them? And she said, If they know we have them, they'll want them back. And I Who is she talking about? She was talking about tribes. If tribes knew those images were at the Herald, they'd want them back. And so we weren't gonna do anything with them, which I found really disappointing. [00:01:00] And so I started taking myself up to a UT to the Maori classes that, um, that Jason King and Val Smith were running at because I thought at least if I got a little bit of language, I might get a little bit more understanding. And the Herald actually, um, allowed me to take time off in the evening because I was on night shift to do that, which is pretty cool. And [00:01:30] I just started thinking about this world that was seemed quite parallel to my world, and I wanted to know, had anybody else been thinking about this and archiving circles because I wasn't a trained archivist. I was just someone who'd fallen into it for my master's in media studies. So that that was that was the beginning. And then nothing happened for a while because I went off to Australia and did other things. But then I read Barry Barclay's book, [00:02:00] and there's a chapter or so in there where he talks about the New Zealand Film archive and, uh, the notion of and the notion of and what that means. And he mentioned this Jonathan, Dennis and I quite literally walked off to the library to find the book on Jonathan Dennis, and it wasn't on the shelf. And Wang Lu, who knew Barry Barkley, who was, I think she was mentioned in the book in Barry's book, she said, Go [00:02:30] ask Roger Horrocks and Roger Horrocks said, That's a great topic for a PhD and that was it. Off I went. But the other bit of that was that, um when I did start reading about him and thinking about him, I thought, Oh, this is a gay man. He was out and my dad was a gay man who hadn't been out. And I thought, How many narratives are there of out gay men running institutions in New Zealand? I actually don't think there are that many of [00:03:00] them. Um, this guy seemed passionate and fun and out and colourful and gay in the most lovely way, and I wanted to find out a bit more about him. So that was the other side of it coming into play. And that's caused tension between the sort of queer angle that I've taken, particularly with queer theory and a sort of more traditional view of, um, what it was he was doing, and particularly in relation to Maori [00:03:30] and things. Sometimes people haven't always been comfortable, but I've been trying to bring those two elements together. So So let's delve into Jonathan. Um, so to speak. And, um, yeah, tell me about him. What? So you know what? What was he like? What? What did you find? Well, I never met him, but I listened to interviews he'd done, and I watched videos of him, and I read everything I could find about him, and he [00:04:00] was seems to have been extremely opinionated. Uh, he was a bit black and white about things he loved. He seemed to love things or hate them. And he said So it's a little bit unusual for New Zealand men at a particular time. I think, um, people always described when I talked to them his clothes, his bright Hawaiian shirts and, um, maybe chequered trousers that didn't really match the Hawaiian shirt. But that became part of the look. You know, Lindsay Shelton talked [00:04:30] about being in Italy with him. They were walking along the street, I think, in Milan, and Jonathan was in this typical brightly coloured outfit. And these, uh, beautiful suited Italian men were walking towards them in a line and sort of part of like the Red Sea when they saw Jonathan because they sort of didn't really know how to respond or react to him. Um, he was. He was very tall. People often talked about his height and the fact that he was really fun and people [00:05:00] who were friends with him thought that he was just a a person who loved loved film. That was his focus. That was his focus More than anything else. He loved film, but he loved sharing the delights of film and sharing that world with people. And he found ways to connect with people through through his love of film. Um, yeah. And his sister said he was a He was always a collector of small things, which I thought was a lovely comment. He [00:05:30] he was always filling his pockets with stones or toys. Or, you know, he tells one story about living because he grew up living in grand hotels because his father was a general manager. He opened up every I think cornflake packet in the cupboard for the guests to pull out the little plastic toy inside, and he got in a lot of trouble for that. But he was always after the gem, the beautiful thing and the bright coloured thing. It's a bit of a magpie. I think it's fascinating what resonates with people [00:06:00] after somebody's past, what the words they use to describe somebody. So you know, whether it's the height or the the Yeah, yeah or Elizabeth Ally, saying he flew on, flew on in on his own personal rainbow. I really liked that that notion that he was just quite different from everybody else. He seemed to come from nowhere, and here he was fully formed, doing his thing. So how does that fit into New Zealand in the 19 fifties and sixties? Well, I asked a lot of people about [00:06:30] that, and, uh, he didn't fit in, you know, he said, he he described himself as he said, I wasn't Boise, which even Boise is a kind of unusual term. He wasn't like the other boys. Tim, his brother, said, while he himself was outside and um and particularly around Mount Cook when they lived at the Hermitage. Um, he was, um, learning how to build things with his mate who worked there, and he was shooting rabbits in front of [00:07:00] the, uh the guests windows. When they were eating in the dining room, Jonathan was inside. He was inside. He had dolls. He had toys. The women in the house loved him and adored him and flocked around him, and he had wrapped them around his finger. And a lot of people talked about that. Jonathan could wrap me around his finger. He could do whatever he liked. So were words like, say, gay or homosexual or queer Used in his family. Did [00:07:30] his family know about his sexual identity? Like from a young age? His family did know. But words were never used this according to his family. So, um, one of the stories Tim tells is they were all living, I don't know, would have been would have probably been a central terrace in Wellington by then, I think, and in the morning Laurie, their father would come around and bring a cup of tea to everybody while they were still in bed. And sometimes, you know, Jonathan would have his boyfriend in bed with him, and it was just good morning. [00:08:00] And here's your cup of tea. There was never any questioning or outrageousness, and you know, Jonathan later told stories of having two boyfriends at the same time, and they were staying in the big water bed at I think it was Central Terrace. So family always knew he was. He was just Jonathan. He was the way he was. But no, definitely not the word queer. Um and you know, as we know in the fifties sixties time, the word queer was a real insult for people. But even now that those of his generation often don't [00:08:30] seem to use the word queer so much, Um, but as his family, his family, as far as his siblings are concerned, say that, um, his parents were very open minded people. They just took everything as it came and they were intelligent and interested in the world. But at the same time, Jonathan says, he went through a period of being absolutely enraged by them, and he treated them very badly, and it seems to be all tied with him being sent to boarding school. [00:09:00] And Tim had already gone to boarding school in Christchurch, and he really thrived. Um, but Jonathan got there a couple of years later and he wasn't like the other boys and a lot of them were the Sons of Canterbury farmers and cricket was on the menu. And, um, being artsy or being in any way, um different from a sort of a kind of conformist, standardised, normalised version of masculinity wasn't particularly acceptable. Um, So [00:09:30] I interviewed his friend who went to school at the same time, who said that there was a heck of a lot of bullying, that Jonathan somehow seemed to rise above it, he said. But Jonathan himself said, I made myself transparent so that they wouldn't get to me. I made myself invisible. Um, so the same time as other people saw him as flamboyant and colourful at least as a child, there were times where he knew he had to hide himself away to survive. And he was very angry with his parents for sending [00:10:00] him into that environment for a long, long time. And do you think, is that where the kind of love of film came in was that he could actually go and hide or hide himself away in a cinema in the world? Yeah, So he'd sign himself out of school whenever he could, and he'd say he was going to his sister, Simon, who was living in Christchurch at the time. But actually he was going around the corner to the local theatre and the local theatres at that time, Um, other people [00:10:30] have described and Jonathan and as well as talked about the fact that they had these crazy repertory screenings. I don't know how to say that word properly, actually, but, um, of whatever they could get their hands on. So they had classic cinema and silent cinema and westerns and everything, and he lapped it all up. And so in the archive, there are wonderful postcards and letters to his parents who were in various places at that time saying, I've seen this film, Um, and it was 262 metres, or however long It was like he always [00:11:00] wrote down how long the film was, and and or been in feet in those days, wouldn't it? And this is what happened in this film, and I really loved it. And it was a way for him to escape. And in later years, when Peter Wells, his friend, wrote Long Loop home and some of his memoirs, Jonathan read them and then Peter and he talked about Peter's notion of escape into those films. And, um, Jonathan felt very similarly, Peter said. And, um, Jonathan uses, and I think it's [00:11:30] the Centenary of cinema. A wonderful quote from A I think it's a Janet frame story where a mother and perhaps her daughter go off to the cinema and this is their magical time, and he really felt that that was his magical time. And as Peter says, you could imagine you were the the, um, the heroine being kissed by the hero at the end of the film. It was a very sort of Amex sexual reality, and, uh, your imagination could could fly free. So was was Jonathan [00:12:00] like, aware of his, um, sexuality, like when he was at boarding school? What a great question. I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. Um, I never read anything, and no one ever said to me what his experience in adolescence was in terms of his understanding of his own sexuality. II. I don't remember him ever saying he had one moment where he thought, Oh, this is who I am. But the story he does tell is [00:12:30] at 16 writing to the now What did they call themselves? There was a sort of homosexual law Reform League at that time, and they were very proper. And they were. Lots of them were lawyers and things, and they wanted to change the law. And he wrote and said, I want to be part of your your group. I'm I'm only 16 but I think this is very important. But interestingly enough, he never said so when he did his interviews. But when you read the letter, it says I am not a homosexual, but [00:13:00] I think this is really important. Um, and he tells the story of how the secretary was very concerned that this would be misconstrued if a 16 year old turned up at their meetings. So he said, You can only come with a chaperone. And so Jonathan's dad, Laurie, came with him to the meetings. So he went to the meetings, and he he talked and listened and understood about homosexual law reform. But it's interesting. In that first letter, he said, I am not a homosexual, but but he was only 16. [00:13:30] What year was this? Well, he was born in 53. So do the math man. That that letter is is in his papers in the archive, and it's It's It's lovely. And I think it shows a generosity of spirit and an intelligence and a thinking outside the box that a lot of 16 year old boys, you know, whatever their sexual orientation would be would just not not be there at 16, you know? So this will be [00:14:00] 1968 1969. Well done. Yeah. When you think about 1969 in San Francisco, that's a very different thing than 1969 in New Zealand and Roger Horrocks. And many people have said that we didn't have our sixties till the seventies, you know? But it was It was a conservative place, and you were judged very harshly for and And how even would you know as a 16 year old that this kind of society existed? Indeed, indeed. II. I haven't seen anything. I hope it turns out where he talks [00:14:30] about. Oh, you know, I heard this on the radio. I read this piece of news or my father, Laurie gave me an article that he'd seen or my mother talked about it, or I have no idea. Were there other members of of the Dennis family that that were, um, queer that he could, You know, that that he could kind of relate to none that I know of. But a a family member who was a broad minded fellow who Jonathan talked about [00:15:00] having influence on him was his uncle. So his uncle, who was the Christchurch librarian, Ron O'Reilly and, uh, Jonathan would also escape to see Ron and Ron had, you know, these McCann paintings on his walls and and, um, the, uh, one of Jonathan's cousins. Rachel remembers Jonathan's mother arguing with her father because these paintings were obscene. And how could you have them in the house? [00:15:30] And Jonathan remembers those arguments because he'd grown up in hotels with beautiful landscape paintings. You know, there was nothing like these, these works on the walls, these modern works. And so this uncle was different and he was very into films. He was part of the film society, and you know that the film society at that time and prior to that had been regarded as a place for perverts and radicals. It's a quote from, um, I got it in my thesis I can't remember who it's a quote from, but that was, you know, that was the place the perverts [00:16:00] and the radicals went because they were able to bring in films into the country that no one else could see. And I've talked to quite a few people about this, the kind of tangential to the thesis. I thought it was really interesting how many gay men I know older gay men went to the film festival, the film festivals and the film society. The film society was the beginning of it, and they saw these films that showed them other worlds, and I think that was really important. It was important to Jonathan. It was important to Ron. So Ron O'Reilly, the uncle [00:16:30] he's quoted in mates and lovers, which is by Chris Brick. Brick. Yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you. Um, so Ron's quoted in there because he's he's writing to toss Williston or one of his mates. And he's saying, You know, really, we're all homosexual. It's part of who we are. And that's kind of a quite a modern thing to say for I think it was in AAA letter written in the fifties or something. You know they've been talking about what it meant to be a man, what it meant to have a sexual identity, [00:17:00] why there were even issues or problems with being homosexual or heterosexual. So this was a guy who was who was an open minded fellow. I mean, he he'd been married, he had two kids, and I'm not saying what his sexuality was. But I'm saying I think he was an intelligent person who was accepting of who people were in the world. So how do you think Jonathan would label himself? I believe he used the term gay. But other people have said to me, [00:17:30] You know, during the time of homosexual law reform and the the agitations and the marches, he went on some of the marches. But some people have said, you know, he wasn't standing up there being the drum, being the activist on the front line. He wasn't doing that kind of work. And I don't know if they said that because they felt he wasn't doing enough work or they were just making an observation. Um, Malcolm McKinnon, his friend, says that they had a drink the night the homosexual law reform went through 11 of the clubs that they went to, Um, [00:18:00] but I, I mean, I. I think he would have proudly said he was gay if he was asked, but I really think he didn't see his sexuality. Well, he said, I it was never an issue in my occupation. It was never an issue for me. But other people have said that they knew it was so you know, Elizabeth Ally says that when she first wanted him, you know, flying in on his coloured rainbow to do work at UM national Radio and or concert. I think she was [00:18:30] originally programming for concert. Her manager said his voice is too camp. She said, Don't touch it. If you try and get him to do voice modification or anything like that, he'll run away. There's nothing wrong with his voice. So she had to buffer him and protect him for, and she clearly never told him that he was. His voice wasn't appropriate for radio at that time, according to the managers. So what's that? Early nineties? I mean, far out. It seems outrageous to me. Um, [00:19:00] and I think there were champions through his life who probably buffered him in the way that Elizabeth did from bureaucracies because he didn't love them. And he tend to just tell people what he thought, which didn't do his career any good. Um, so sometimes he may have been a little bit oblivious to what was going on for him. You know, he was the adored younger child. He was, um, I, I think he he saw he saw love and collegiality and friendship wherever he went. [00:19:30] I think, even though he in later years, he got cynical, he did see the positive side of things. He did see what he wanted to see in the world. And he, you know, he thought that he knew that there was nothing wrong with being gay. So he assumed everybody else thought that, too. That's what I'd say. That's, um, fascinating to to hear about that kind of. I mean, I would call it kind of hidden homophobia, you know, 19 nineties. I mean, that's not that long ago. That's right. It's It's very [00:20:00] recent. Um, but, you know, that really made me think when she told me that and then I thought about the voices I knew from National radio and concert FM, particularly the male voices over a long time. And they were a kind of they were a kind of standardised deep, kind of not not Kiwi bloke, more refined than Kiwi bloke. But and then it makes you think, Well, what do you think? A gay voices or a straight [00:20:30] voices or a How did they even, you know, why did they think that voice was camp as opposed to another voice? What does camp mean and what I mean? Gosh, you know, if if you let one of those voices on the radio what would happen, what will happen next? That's right. That's right. But you know his His radio shows were incredibly popular. They won awards. I mean, you know, you worked on some of them, Uh, and people loved people, loved them. And his voice was distinctive. [00:21:00] And it was, you know, uh, he he he said colourful things. He he said passionate things. And part of that was was actually a really beautiful speaking voice, a lovely voice to hear and listen to, because he had done quite a lot of acting and stuff in the seventies. That's right. So in the seventies, he got involved in a theatre company. And they had some pretty, uh, well known people that had Anna Camp and Paul and, um, even [00:21:30] Sam Neil, which is very exciting. And in England, And Denise, who is now Denise, she's changed her name. Uh, and they did. They began to do plays about what they considered the New Zealand condition. And they did plays about Gallipoli. Uh, you know, and not the sort of average, celebratory, nationalistic, jingoistic stuff it was more about, Really, How it was, how it genuinely was for people. So he was doing that [00:22:00] for a long time. He'd also done some radio in the seventies, early eighties for one ZB, I think, um, Fri Hendrix talks about Jonathan going off on Sunday morning to do early morning live radio. Um, you know, doing a Star Wars reviews and things like that. And you can imagine what he thought about Star Wars. He didn't like it very much. Um, so yes, he he had he did have experience [00:22:30] and he and he had a confidence about it. He he said, you know, he could really feel like he was in the in the zone on on stage and And he used all those skills later on, when he became a public figure and he talked about that mask that he would put on so he could do the I'm the director of the archive and, uh, do those public talks that he did because, interestingly enough, despite everything else I've said, I would say he's a He was an introvert. Um, he needed to be able to choose the people [00:23:00] he was around in order to feel really genuinely comfortable. Otherwise, he had to put on the performance space in order to cope with things. And I think he probably found the public side of things tiring. Uh, but they were necessary to what he wanted to achieve. And what did he want to achieve? Well, domination. Um, probably, um, for everybody to understand the amazingness of the films that he thought were beautiful and wonderful [00:23:30] And he, you know, he thought silent film was the best film, and this was quite a purist. Um, Roger Horrocks calls, calls someone like Jonathan Sunny east and never quite sure how to pronounce it CINEAST and TE. And there's an acute somewhere, um, a pure film lover and so you know, he was encouraging the film festival and working with the film festival to bring in the classics of silent cinema, [00:24:00] play them with the orchestra, and that still goes on today with the film festival. Um, he would have to get the best print. And if it wasn't the best print, he would have to get another print, even if the film festival had to pay twice for it, which film festival didn't like very much. And fair enough, Um, but he wanted people to really understand how what masterpieces these films were. And he was deeply frustrated when people didn't, uh and I think that's that's why for him, going to Italy to the [00:24:30] film festival as long as many times as he could was very important to him because there were people there who he felt really understood the power of silent cinema in a way that he often felt New Zealanders didn't. But then I think he probably had that thing about feeling like everyone was a philistine and he and he knew a lot more, and that made him feel good too, you know. So he was frustrated by people, but at the same time it gave him a sense of status, I think, to be the person who really understood how incredible these films were. But it's interesting that you were saying [00:25:00] that he he did a lot of public speaking and and I guess my experience of him was that he was always incredibly generous with his his knowledge so he wouldn't hold on to it. He would want you to understand and would take the time to explain it. I think that's a super good point that he if he was asked to speak or if there was an opportunity, he would he would take it and he was generous. So there are neat, um, uh, papers [00:25:30] in the archive that I didn't really get to do anything with yet that I'd love someone to do with something with which are notes from lectures he gave all over the country. So he was asked to speak at film festivals, or, um, he was asked to speak at the film and television school here in Wellington or come up to Victoria Uni and speak to the history classes about the history of film in New Zealand, or he go to A and speak about Maori films in the collection. And you know, they did this. He did this on a real shoestring. [00:26:00] There wasn't a lot of money for it, but he would do it because he thought it was important to do it. And you're right. He shared his knowledge. He wasn't someone who thought information was power. Um, and I think that probably made him hard for bureaucrats to really know how to deal with because he wasn't. This wasn't about getting himself to the top of the hierarchy in any traditional way. This was about his passion for film and sharing that with everyone in all sorts of ways. So, yeah, you're right. He was He was generous. And if [00:26:30] people came to him and said, Oh, you know, I'm really interested in this film from blah, blah, blah. He'd come and help them with it. So I've spoken to people who are scholars at Victoria and they say, I remember Jonathan helping me. When I went into the archive, he'd come in and he'd always he'd have some new piece of information for me, and he'd always share it with me. And that was how he that was how he tried to run the archive as an open place and as a place where anyone could come. You didn't have to be a scholar. [00:27:00] You didn't have to be, As he said, archive literate. He he he'd take the archive to you if he could, you know, bundle up the huge big old film projector in the bloody car and drive it out to the middle of nowhere to show on a which was at that time being done up. So there's like sheets of plastic everywhere and chickens running around. But that's how you get people to see the So that's how you do it. So it's not just good enough to kind of preserve the films, but actually to [00:27:30] make them accessible and to have them out there. Yeah, and that's really hard. I can see how archives Excuse me, you can get focused on, um, preservation and get so worried about, you know, sharing their stuff. But it comes back to that sort of, um, that film archive argument that gets centred around Ernest Ren at BF I and at the cinema tech, um, France. Uh, you know, he was always showing everything [00:28:00] all the time, even if he only had one print. And, uh, Ernest was saying No. If we don't have a preservation print, we can't share it. Which was hugely frustrating for people. And Jonathan, you know, he knew how other people had approached these things, and that was the great advantage of starting the archive. Later in 81 when a lot of the big archives that started in the thirties and forties was he could take what he thought was best from all the different types of, um, approaches. And he definitely thought that presentation was [00:28:30] enormously important. And I think he knew. And maybe I just say this because I've done research myself and I want to believe it. But I think he knew that researchers and people from the outside brought so much to the archive because they had expert knowledge, and he certainly knew he learned that Maori people had expert knowledge about the films that they were looking at. So that made me think, you know, those, um, glass plate negatives that the Herald I was looking at many years ago, if I'd been able to say, Here are all these images, What [00:29:00] do you know about them. Boy, that could have been interesting. We could have been sharing the images. We could have been thinking about them differently and talking about them differently Could could change a whole institution to start opening out in those ways. So where are those plate negatives now? As far as I know, they're still in the basement of the Herald. Yeah, so? So I got a I got a small budget agreed to after a while to, um, to scan some of them. And there was a wonderful, [00:29:30] uh, image. Um, handler at the Herald called Andrew Robson who was interested in history, and he'd helped me use the big old scanner in the Mac. So I'm no good with Mac. I only use PC, and we would cann these things and we would do some research and try and figure out what it was we were looking at. So some of them are scanned, but most of them are just sitting, you know, just sitting in the basement. And how did the Herald acquire them? Uh, well, the herald started, um, in the late 18 hundreds, so they were taking photos [00:30:00] all around the country from the time where there were, there was that kind of equipment available to take photos. So they were their own collection originally owned by Wilson and Horton, I think, was the company that owned The Herald. And they were a civic minded bunch at that time. And they, uh, they had photographers going around the country taking photos. They had a lot of amazing photos of Auckland being built. Um, and then they developed a relationship with the Auckland Museum. So they were sharing with the [00:30:30] museum. The images they had. They were starting to do exhibitions together. But then the Herald was sold to Tony O'Reilly and and it changed. It changed a lot. So I think half the collection is at the Auckland Museum now. But the rest are still at the Herald because that relationship stopped. So Johan's culturalism, How did that do you know how that began? Well, he said he never went on to a until the late seventies. Um, and he didn't say what [00:31:00] that was in the late seventies, but really for me, from what I can understand, Harris happened to him. You know, um, they had found out through American colleagues and Audrey to talk to me a little bit about this, that there seemed to be a copy of the Devil's pit floating around in the States. I think a collector had it, and that's also called and Southern Cross. And so that was an early film shot in New Zealand by I think Universal Pictures [00:31:30] and, um, he had heard that there might be this film. They might be able to negotiate and get it. And indeed, the New Zealand Film Archive was able to get that film and that that someone who told him the Star Princess might still be alive. And so he was calling around, you know, trying to find the star because that's what he did. If he could, um, if was in town, even if she was sitting on a cruise ship and didn't want to come off it, he was going to interview her. So he did, and that's pretty impressive. He sought [00:32:00] out the people he thought were significant, and for him, the Devil's pit was a significant New Zealand film. And so the star of it was a significant person in just the same way that Li was. And you know, he called up with and they had. There was a bit of confusion about the name of the film and was it the same film? And finally they agreed it was and they met and about 82. So you can see his diaries in the archive and meeting with Harris. And he said, from there they [00:32:30] they just started this extraordinary friendship. It was very close, very quickly, and she began to talk to him about things. So her daughter-in-law Beryl, says that they'd sit together at um where where lived and would teach him songs, Maori songs and help him think about, um, how he would do an introduction and Maori and, um, [00:33:00] there were other Maori people involved in helping him with this stuff. But I think he was completely comfortable with as his guide, and she she loved him and he loved her and they just loved working together. And there's some lovely handwritten notes of one of his speeches. I think she gave at Port on about what the film fes, what the film archive has done and why in relation to um, the Maori World. And she felt very [00:33:30] confident that what they were doing was extremely important, and she was the she was gonna champion it, and and And he was very happy to have that relationship, which I don't think was exploitative. I think they they both genuinely adored each other and wanted to work together. And they found it to be loads of fun. And so it was through her that his entry into the this kind of parallel world that yeah, it appears to have been. And he describes the [00:34:00] Maori, uh, the not the Maori, the festive art. I think they call it That happened in, I think, 84 or so and how had called around and told people the film archives, bringing out these films from our region. Um and so they had a private screening at someone's home with just the old people. The who said I'll play that again. Play that again. They had these different fragments from and they started recognising ancestors and various people in the images. [00:34:30] And then he says, when they had the big screening, the word had gone around. We've got these photos. We've got these images of your region and heaps of people came and it was hugely popular. And the learning for him was, um, through opening out that world by introducing him to the influential people. Then everybody would know if this was significant. Everyone was gonna know everyone was going to get involved. And he described a number of times that that [00:35:00] amazing experience of, uh, people calling out to the screen because they're recognising people, people really engaging with the film in a way that he he wouldn't have done himself as a sort of European, brought up in a particular kind of way. You know, he talked about screenings at his home in the seventies when he was bringing home films from the film Society where everyone must sit rigidly. Still, no one was allowed to speak, and if they did, they may never be invited back again. And yet he was this other [00:35:30] way of watching film, which was much more interactive and much more obviously passionate. And he realised there were different ways you could interact with these these films, and that was important to him. Yeah, and that's absolutely the complete opposite approach to what was happening at the Herald where they were saying that Oh, gosh. You know, you know, actually, if you tell people that this material is here. They'll want to come and access it and yeah, that's right. But that whole fear that actually, [00:36:00] if somebody knows something, is there that they'll want it back or they'll take control away from it or yeah, and I think it reflected that that person who said that to me it reflected her world view, which was very much an institutionalised herald view that we have power because we have information. We have these materials. Even if we do nothing with them, we still have the power. But other people don't necessarily think like that. Uh, so it sort of shifting your whole your whole perspective on it is, is a is an amazing [00:36:30] thing. And I think that takes a lot of bravery. And I think you have to accept that if you open out, you will be challenged and I think you have to think that's OK. We'll deal with the tension and and this can mean a new creative approach to our our materials as possible. And if we're willing to listen as well as speak about them, we might learn something. So I'd like to know why. [00:37:00] Why did Jonathan, think one archiving and into bicultural. Why were they important? Well, he he had been working with Clive. So who was, um, the the really the only train film archivist we had in the country at that time. And they had been looking at the collection the film collection, which was part of the the National Library, I believe. And they'd found out that there were these [00:37:30] films at Shelley Bay and a bunker and they were there because they were nitrates, so they were liable to explode. And, um, they'd been finding out what they were, and they were getting really excited. And he said, Jonathan says Clive came up with the idea of a film archive. He's the one who said We need a dedicated film archive and Jonathan ran with it. So he had he said it at one point, you know, I had thought I'd be a film star. And then I saw myself on screen and I realised that really wasn't gonna happen. And then he said he also thought Sam Neill was never going to be very well known [00:38:00] because he had such a na nasal voice. Um, so he started thinking, Yeah, This is some. This is something I could focus on. This is something I can do. This is something I believe in. And Lindsay Shelton and the the the, um, Sheldon and the, uh, the film Society had been doing the film festival, and there was a lot of interest in film, and there was an appetite, uh, to think about the local film as well as international film, because we often, you know, the [00:38:30] mainstream culture in New Zealand often looks overseas, but, um, when they looked at this collection of this these materials at Shelley Bay, I think they started thinking, Actually, this is this is really important stuff we've got here. This is really interesting stuff. Why don't we look at it further? And once they were, they actually got Well, there was a big struggle, but they finally set up a charitable trust, and they set up the film archive, and he was the only employee to begin with. And he set it up very much along the lines of [00:39:00] the North American and European cinema, uh, film archives that he was seeing because that's all he knew at that time. He'd gone around and he'd done the trip, and he learned from people how they were doing these things. But it wasn't until a bit later that he started to realise that actually, uh, Maori culture was a very important part of this. But of course there was. There were wider social issues going on you'd had, um, you know, a bastion point the protest of Bastion Point were happening at that time. Cooper had, um, had led the [00:39:30] to Wellington about, uh, no, no more land being sold away from Maori ownership. You had 81. You had the Springbok tour, and Jonathan went on some of the Springbok marches, uh, anti Springbok marches. And, you know, part of the conversation was in New Zealand was Well, you're very, uh, you know, Maori people were saying, and you see it in film? Maori people saying to Well, you're really happy to fight for the rights of black South Africans [00:40:00] on the other side of the world. Why are you not fighting for us? So the conversation had shifted and changed had been doing their thing. And the Maori, uh, proponents were, um, were taking petitions to parliament and saying, actually, this is the language of the country movement was starting, everything was shifting. So I think Johnson was good at hearing what was going on in the world and thinking about it as well. And, um, and government institutions were starting to shift and change about, um, about [00:40:30] or Waitangi and what that meant for them. There was starting to be some education around it. So I think it was a whole lot of things like, I don't think he was like this magic genius. But I think he thought really hard about what made this film archive different from any any other film archive in the world. Actually, it was the Maori materials that made it made it different from other colonial spaces and and this was worth this is worth finding out about. And he was curious and he was smart. So, you [00:41:00] know, why wouldn't why wouldn't he? And I guess it's not just about the, um, the materials that the tang of the collection items, but it's about actually how you handle the items and who has access and who has rights and all that kind of thing. Yeah, and and they had to they had to work that out for themselves because there wasn't an archive at that time which had been set up along European lines, which had, [00:41:30] I can't think of any other film archive in the world that actually had good relationships with indigenous people and local people and had, um, God forbid, given away enough power to allow other people to tell them how, how, how to handle these materials or who could handle these materials or who couldn't. And that was the struggle all the way through the eighties. And that first decade of the archive was, you know, OK, so we've got these materials and we're speaking to people. We're taking them out to people. And some people [00:42:00] were saying, Well, actually, what are you what are you doing with those materials? They're not yours, they're ours. And Jonathan described um, being at the old Buckle Street Museum, showing some films around about the time of Maori, which was such AAA big um, they call it a watershed in New Zealand of, um, first time. Really, Maori Maori materials had been shown as art or had been shown as being as significant as European materials. And so they played these films, [00:42:30] and Jonathan said this young Maori fellow got up and he said, Well, who are you? Who are you to handle these materials? And, um what are they paying you to handle these materials, and why are you doing this? And then they're not They're not yours. And Jonathan was really upset and shocked, and there was a there, and he spoke in response to the young man. But I thought, What a brave person. What a brave man to to stand up and challenge the director of an archive and say, You know, actually, these aren't yours, [00:43:00] So how are we going to have a better relationship? And Jonathan kept telling that story. So it was obviously of significance to him. He it it it it got some thinking going in his in his head and he talked to about it afterwards because she hadn't been there that day. And she said, I'm coming with you every time you show these films now. So they talked about warming the films, you know, she was there to introduce and Contextualise and talk about what was in these films and sing a song and then teach the audience [00:43:30] a song and involve people and what these materials were. So it wasn't an anthropological or ethnological ethnographic exercise. And looking at these cultures of the past, you know, this was, um, looking at images of a living culture of people who have connections, and, uh, they are engaged in these spaces and they have control over these materials. So I was trying to really shift the conversation. Um, I think that, um it's [00:44:00] interesting. I think that kind of warming of, um, films still happens. I. I know I. I go to screenings at at the archives and there is something to be said for having somebody introduce and give context and actually say that this is you know, these are real people. It's not. It's not just something they're on screen, you know? Um, it does. It does warn them. It's really important. I [00:44:30] agree. And, um and I was at a conference a few years ago at a UT, and it was about, um I think it was about indigenous filmmaking and indigenous representations on screen. And there was a really obvious divide between the Australian filmmakers and the New Zealand filmmakers in the room. Boy had come out so there was a wonderful panel discussion about what boy meant for Maori filmmakers. And [00:45:00] there was a real disappointment that actually and Ainsley Gardner hadn't managed to make much money off. Boy, um, because there was this discussion about, you know, we've got this blockbuster now. God, you must be rolling in it. That wasn't the case, but there was this conversation about how you, um, how you represent people who haven't been represented so much on screen before. Appropriately, And there were some Australians who'd been doing some interesting work projecting archival images onto the outside of a building. Um and then I think [00:45:30] in the Northern Territories and projections of local people and they were white filmmakers. And I think I asked the question. So do you have local people, um, who who are descended from those in those images with you? And do they concept contextualise for the, you know, for the audience and the guy and the white guy said. But that would be like pulling out a performing monkey. I mean, that's just not appropriate. And he really didn't understand the notion of contextualising. And so So it's [00:46:00] not a a matter of, you know, dragging a Maori person in and saying, Well, you do the and then you can leave again. It's actually about involving someone in a project or perhaps an indigenous person instigating the project or owning the project or or, you know, running us in some way and actually in in that situation. I think the instigator of the project was, um, a local indigenous person. But then the white people had sort of gone off and just done the thing because they had seen that that was their brief, you know? [00:46:30] But they hadn't connected the dots back into the network of the landscape and the people. So it's, you know, there's still lots of misunderstandings around that how that works. And I'm sure it doesn't work well all the time. But, you know, you got to give it a go. At least people are trying and it does make a difference. Yeah, so within the archive, do you think or or did did Jonathan talk about any, um, homophobia [00:47:00] within the archive context? Um, I don't remember him. No. Is is the is the short answer. I don't remember him talking about that. Um I know there were. There were other gay people working at the archive. I don't know if, um, there were conversations about that I don't He didn't really talk about, um, [00:47:30] like, at the time of the homosexual law reform, right? It would have been quite logical in the same way that this year you guys are showing, um, films in relation to the politics around there. It would have been quite appropriate to be showing films then, but maybe they weren't films in 86 so Well, they were. I mean, actually, So turning the question around, I don't remember him talking about homophobia, but I do remember him celebrating gay film. So I know there's letters in the archive from Peter [00:48:00] Wells saying, Thank you so much for playing all my films again. And there'd been a, um, an exhibition, actually at the National Library. I think it was postcards of love or something similar to that in the early nineties or mid nineties, and Jonathan had curated a collection of Peter Wells early films, mostly the short films. Um, a lot of them had gay themes, and, you know, um, he'd been given the opportunity [00:48:30] to to think about, uh, films related to love and he'd chosen Peter's films. And, uh, Peter was always very out, and he and his films often had gay themes, and Jonathan really admired that about him. And they were the films. They were some of the films of New Zealand. So Peter's films always played overseas when he was, um, showing New Zealand films along with, UH, Maori films and feminist films. And he made sure he didn't just follow a sort of A a mainstream [00:49:00] version of what New Zealand filmmaking was, because it was really easy to go down. The good pie pork pie wrote all the time. There's nothing wrong with Goodbye pork pie. But there were other films. There were always other films from the seventies onwards. You know, Um and I and I think that's one of the things I like about Jonathan's work is it always seemed to me that he he flipped the sort of standard notion of New Zealand is on its head. He loved doing that in all sorts of ways. You know, New Zealand is actually a lot queerer than you think [00:49:30] it is, and it's a lot Browner than you think it is, and it's a lot more radical than you think. It is in particular kinds of ways. And he was interested in that. And I think part of that was, um part of that was an influence from feminist friends who were looking at, um, challenging the mainstream in many ways. And he he you know, I love I love the idea that he was challenging the notion of what it was to be a Kiwi bloke. And he was doing it with the contents of the archive, you know, he was challenging notions of national identity. And, um, a sort of [00:50:00] a picturesque view of this is New Zealand. You know that we are just these beautiful landscapes and nothing else. Actually, we're a lot more complicated than that, and that's OK. That's not a bad thing. That's a good thing. And let's have a look at some of the tensions in our relationships. And I think the way he curated, um, the the films he showed and the way he did exhibitions like the big exhibition that he did with Sergio to in Italy and 89 and then the other one he did in Italy in 93. I think [00:50:30] he was he was really saying We are. We are so much more than a simplistic view of us. We are all these different things. And and I think he challenged assumptions through that style of presentation of film. One of my memories of Jonathan was that, um he was incredibly playful and subversive. He would he would love to subvert, as you say, the the the kind of the the main mainstream view and just kind of like, yeah, give it a kick. [00:51:00] That's right. That's right. And when you're doing sort of scholarly research, you can lose your sense of humour. But when you listen to the kind of things that Jonathan would put together in those radio the do radio documentaries and, um, they're fucking funny, they are just witty as the way he would, uh, or you guys actually would edit together quotes from various films. So you know, you have one [00:51:30] guy saying, Finally, we have a New Zealand film culture that can show us what it means to be New Zealanders. And then you have a quote from, you know, some mad Bruno Lawrence character who's going off his head and wearing neglige and pulling the door off somebody's house with his tractor or whatever it is. You know, um, he was always He was He was Yeah. He just must have had this sort of great sense of humour, but also this incredible brain for [00:52:00] thinking through how we how How am I gonna to juxtapose these materials? How am I going to bring them together to create this This sort of funny, subversive challenging, but also just on a purely oral level engaging narrative? Because it still had to sound good, right? It couldn't just be clunked together to to make a political point. He was actually quite subtle about these things. And I think, um, he was really influenced by Eisenstein there. You know, the notion of juxtaposition [00:52:30] of things that seem to be at odds with each other, to tell a narrative or a subversive narrative and just thinking of his some of some of his creative output. I mean, I, I I'm thinking of a day without art. Um, early nineties, which was AAA radio soundscape. Um, Commemorating HIV a I Yeah, it was I. I find that still to be one of the most moving of his his works and he did that with Elizabeth Ally, um and he was thinking, you know, there was a wider movement in [00:53:00] the States thinking about these issues, and that's where that a day without art the notion of that comes from But he made it very local. He made it about local people. And you hear quotes from people, uh, talking about the day they were diagnosed with HIV or the experiences that, um, that they'd had. And it was quite influenced by Derek Jarman Blue, um, which was, you know, Derek and, uh, various of his friends reading from his diary, but also from, [00:53:30] um, creative pieces. And, um, it's a It's a an absolutely beautiful work, that one. Yeah, and and still playful at the same time as that's addressing, you know, important, really important issues. And there's that thing about, you know, this whole. I saw a quote the other day on Facebook about this whole generation of young men who died and they were artists and they were creative people and they were ordinary fellow, and they were, you know, and and they were all [00:54:00] gone and something like a day without art actually makes you think about that again because I think I don't know if it's that we've swept it under the carpet. But how did we forget so quickly? And, um, you know, Jonathan's very close friend and partner for a long time, Fri Hendrix told me in quite a lot of detail about nursing various friends who were dying of AIDS before the new drugs came in and, you know, people going blind and people's faces turning black [00:54:30] and the kind of cancers that overtake them. And so Jonathan was around this, you know, This was happening here in New Zealand. This wasn't just happening overseas. And, um, their friend who was a camera man His name was Bailey. He died, and Jonathan and Fairy put money towards a, um, a commemorative plaque for him. So it was very much he was very aware of what was going on, and and I have to say I've thought from time to time, given that when [00:55:00] people have been honest about it, they said that Jonathan loved having sex and he loved having sex with a lot of people, and he travelled overseas a lot. How did he keep himself safe? What did did he figure out early on what was going on and was more careful than other people. I don't know because he didn't talk about how he kept himself safe. Um, but some people did assume he had HIV aids when he got sick with his cancer. Um, I think because he was a gay man, there was just this assumption and they hadn't seen so many people die. Um, but, you know, [00:55:30] so I remember one of his mates pulling out an old of his because Jonathan loved to carry different coloured kits and it had a note in the bottom, and it was written in two different hands. And it was Jonathan picking someone up. He was at, like, a conference or something. And he was writing notes to this person sitting next to him, saying, Oh, what do you like? And the other guy was saying what he liked. And he's like, Should we go somewhere? And da da da da da. So you know, this is a guy who Malcolm McKinnon, I think, stood up at the end of the funeral and said and Jonathan loved sex. And Malcolm wasn't saying it because [00:56:00] he'd been having sex with Jonathan they were mates, but yeah, it was an important, really important part of his life. Who you know, who he was. And having, you know, the freedom to be with who he wanted to be with was a huge important part of his life. But Malcolm also said he felt that in some ways Jonathan never figured out, not never figured out love. But he never had the long term sort of permanent relationship. But then maybe he didn't want that. Maybe that's not how he worked. He stayed friends with [00:56:30] every lover, I think, bar one he'd ever had. Really good friends. I mean, if he was your friend, he call you up every day. You were connected, you were connected for life. But then there would have been sexual encounters overseas with people, perhaps than he ever. Sorry again. I don't know. Yeah, I think it's important to talk about these things because they're in a huge part of people's lives. Well, for some, um, say biographers or, um, researchers I. I mean, I've read where [00:57:00] things are just kind of glossed over, so we we just don't go there. And And it was interesting that you were saying at the start that there was that tension between kind of your kind of queer theory and the the archival aspects of Jonathan's life, and I mean, was it hard to talk to people about? I mean, there's really intimate details about Jonathan. Sometimes I didn't ask because, I mean, this is also someone who hadn't died all that long ago. Um, so with ex lovers, um, sometimes [00:57:30] I didn't feel like I could. I could ask him. Maybe I wasn't brave enough. I don't know. Maybe I'd do it differently now, but I sort of hope that people would volunteer what they were comfortable talking about. Um, most people didn't talk about sex. And also, you know, as far as they're concerned, I'm a straight woman. I'm a straight woman doing a biography based on the notion of Jonathan being the director of a national archive. So maybe if I'd had a different angle or there was a discussion part way through the process of Do [00:58:00] I scrap the sort of archival, bicultural perspective on this? Do I make this a queer study of this fellow? And I asked a lot of people. Do I do this or don't I do this? And I think it was actually Roger, Horrocks said. It was incredibly important to Jonathan that he was gay, but it's not the lens he saw himself through. So no, don't And I talked to Malcolm McKinnon about that, too, and he said, No, I don't think [00:58:30] that's the lens So I was thinking through theories of camp, you know, there's huge theories of camp and queer theory and stuff, and and Malcolm said he wasn't camp. That's not who he was. I wouldn't see him through a camp lens either. He was Jonathan doing all the things he did, and that was one of the aspects of his life. So I sort of took that advice from people who knew him and and yeah, I I'm pretty happy with that with that as the approach. But I always knew that part of my interest was the fact that he was this gay man. He [00:59:00] was out, and I really admired that about him. Did his out cause any problems. I'm thinking that II. I certainly know, like in the mid eighties, there was, you know, increased kind of verbal abuse and physical Um bashings say in Wellington. Not I'm not sure if it was Jonathan, but I mean, did did he encounter any of that? He didn't in New Zealand. Uh, and you know, people describe him as being very tall and walking forcefully through the streets and seeming very confident. [00:59:30] And maybe or maybe not that had something to do with those things not happening to him, though he never can tell it. It was actually in Melbourne, of all places, Uh, where he totally didn't anticipate it. I think he was in Melbourne for a film festival or some some similar event. He was walking down the street on his own in brightly coloured clothes, and he was punched in the face, um, very hard, and his glasses flew off and there was blood and he couldn't see his glasses [01:00:00] because his they'd come off and he was sort of scrambling around on the ground and no one helped him. And there was this feeling from the people who talked to me about this episode that, uh, people knew about HIV and AIDS. At that time. There was a lot of fear about what it meant that they didn't want to go near someone who might be gay because there was blood, you know? And he felt really frightened and distressed by that episode, and his friends did, too. [01:00:30] And, um and it, I mean, it affected him physically as well as emotionally, because he had to have his teeth redone. And there's a, um, an amazing letter where he's writing to an ex partner, an ex lover. And he's saying, You know, I'm gonna have to have my teeth done and this is happening, and I'm I'm just feeling really crappy, and I'd really like you to come see me, and and I think that letter is quite significant because, um, they'd broken [01:01:00] up on quite bad terms and things weren't great, but he really needed some human comfort. And, um, yeah, I think I think for him it was very unexpected. Do you know what year that was written down somewhere? But I think it was actually nineties rather than eighties for him. Does he talk any more about about that kind of bashing in Melbourne? I mean, how how did that influence later years? I don't know, because he didn't talk about it so that I've seen that one letter [01:01:30] and then other people have talked to me about it. I don't know if he sort of tucked it away and just thought, Oh, well, that's happened to me. Or but then probably a day without art was done. Maybe after that. So maybe he was thinking about the sort of wider politics of homophobia and things when he did that. I'm I'm not sure, Um because he didn't know he didn't. He didn't really talk about it any further. I think he was a person. [01:02:00] Um, I think he was probably It was probably a person who emotionally did put things in a box and tie it up and want it to go away a little bit. Or maybe he was just getting on with other things. I don't know, but he doesn't talk about, um, changing the ways he walked around the street or changing his practises in any way. Maybe his friends would know if maybe his friends would observe changes that he might not have even described. But nobody told me about them. Where do you think [01:02:30] his, um kind of staunchness of personality comes from, um, and that resilience? That's a good question. Uh, he had a nana. He had a Nana and on the O'Reilly side. And she was, uh, a an opinionated and staunch woman who said exactly what she thought at every moment. And he adored her. And she was often a source of discomfort [01:03:00] for other family members who found her embarrassing or difficult. But no, he just thought she was great. And there was another grandma on the other side of the family who had, um who who was also a strong woman, who had I think Simon will kill me if I get this wrong. But I know there was an older woman in the family, and she had brought her Children to Australia, to New Zealand from Australia, and she had run a a kiosk on her own. And she had looked after these girls and she, you know, that both [01:03:30] sides of the family there, these women who were really strong, and he admired them a lot. So I think part of his sense of who he was, what probably it was genetic. And then he he identified behaviours that he liked, you know, um, and and he he enjoyed outrageousness. And he enjoyed, you know, being a bit in your face. And I think sometimes his response to cruelty would be Fuck you. I'm gonna do things 10 times as big as I did them before. And he talks about that in terms of [01:04:00] his colourful dress. You know, he felt he had to be transparent when he was at school. So once he left school, he didn't need that anymore. He was gonna be outrageous. So I think he he had a bit of a, um an anarchist. I think he's a bit of an anarchist. Really? You know, he he wanted to challenge all the rules. And if people were mean or stupid, then he was just gonna go harder. But I don't know what makes someone like that and then another person have a different reaction. I I'm not sure. Um [01:04:30] I, I I'm not a psychologist. And I didn't do a psychoanalytic study of him and I and I, um, I'm I'm I'm fascinated by the psychology of someone like like him. But I I couldn't explain it. I. I know for me personally that, um, seeing his his staunchness around Wellington, even when you know we weren't working together was, um just inspirational, you know, to [01:05:00] have somebody, um who, as you were saying earlier, was leading a national institution who was an openly gay man. Um, because I think for a lot of people growing up, certainly, um, in the sixties seventies eighties, um, being gay, there wasn't a very good future ahead of you. You know, you you were gonna be lonely. Um, you were gonna be isolated. Um, you wouldn't get a good job. And, um yeah, once AIDS was along, you were probably going to die of AIDS. [01:05:30] Um, so to see somebody actually, uh, out there, uh, just doing it and just being, uh, was so important. I you know, I and and And I think that I think that he would He wouldn't want to put words in his mouth, but I think he'd be stoked. You know, I'm gonna ask you a question. Did you ever tell him that? Uh, no. Because I think, um, you only kind of come [01:06:00] to those thoughts afterwards on reflection. And, um but yeah, III. I think that just the fact of being and being out there and, um celebrating difference it one of the pieces of queer theory that most interested me in relation to Jonathan is, um it comes through Michelle Foucault's work, you know, history of sexuality and all that kind of work he did. But [01:06:30] this notion of, um, uh, being able to find spaces outside heteronormative where you can be otherwise where you can be yourself, you know? And I think Jonathan did manage whether whether he sort of felt it from the inside or not. But he created spaces where he could be exactly who he wanted to be. And I think that's awesome. And I think that's hard. And I think what I'm interested in often is in between this you know how you get beyond ironically enough, given [01:07:00] that I've been an archivist and it's all about cataloguing, how do you get beyond, uh, the the naming and the indexing of everything and just simply live in the ways that you believe are are right and natural, And I and I feel like he managed that in some small way, and I think that in itself is inspirational.

IRN: 1068
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089743
TITLE: Participants (part 2) - Shift hui (2016)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Elizabeth Kerekere
INTERVIEWER: Rowan Moulder
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Elizabeth Kerekere; InsideOUT Kōaro; KAHA Youth Hui (2009); Māori; Nelson; New Plymouth; Pakeha; Q Youth (Nelson); Rainbow Youth; Rowan Moulder; Seattle; Shift hui; Shift hui (2016); Tapu te Ranga Marae; Taranaki; Te Reo Māori; Tiriti o Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi; Tīwhanawhana; United States of America; Wellington; agender; allies; asexual; cisgender; closed community; diversity; dress up; femme; gay; gender identity; healthy relationships; hui; inclusion; intergenerational; leadership; lesbian; national rainbow strategy; powhiri; queer; relationships; representation; resilience; safe space; school; sexual identity; sign language; takatāpui; tikanga; trans; transgender; tuakana; venues; whakapapa; whānau; workshop; youth
DATE: 24 April 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Tapu te Ranga Marae, 46C Rhine Street, Island Bay, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Rowan Moulder talks to participants at Shift hui 2016. More participant interviews can be heard in part one.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Now we'll start with you. Ashley. What brings you here to the chef TUI today? Um, experience. Friendship, maybe. Love? No. Um, it was my friend had, um, told me about it a couple of days before registration had closed, and I I've never met anybody like myself. And it was I just thought that it would be really, really, really, really cool to meet people like me and, like, wake up and have, like, people and just be like, Hey, all right. And what about you? What brings you here to shit? Um, [00:00:30] in the beginning, it was about it was just to be with the group, which I'm here with. But then I was just like, Oh, I'm here with a bunch of queer people. I love it. Yeah, that's great. And you do same as came with U from Nelson. And yeah, I really want to come because I'm really gay. Yeah, me too. Same. [00:01:00] All right, So you've come from Nelson. Where have you two come from? I'm from New Plymouth and Taranaki. You're Nelson as well. Ok, that's great. Now, what's been your favourite part of the shift so far? Um, I, I like the food. Um, and I like I love hanging out with everybody and hated the bus trip. Um, but I'm gonna love spotlight, [00:01:30] which is tonight, and I like snuggling with my best friend. To be honest, the food is amazing, but the workshops are good too. I just changed a tyre, which I've never done before, but it's good. And, um, there was a trans workshop thing listening to people. And that was good. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, have either of you had a favourite workshop? So far, I haven't actually gone to any of the workshops I was supposed to, but my friends kept distracting me, and then I as soon as, like with [00:02:00] the trans hour, they had to They go Wait, Did they go all the way around? No. Oh, I thought that they were because I didn't want to explain my story. Oh, well, I ended up going down with my friends, and we played handshake game. That's cool. Is there any workshop that you're looking forward to that you're going to go to? Um, probably the dress up. I don't know, but there's how I don't I'm not even sure what workshops are Tomorrow. [00:02:30] Do you have a favourite workshop. One that you've had so far? Um, no. Is there any that you're looking forward to? Yes, Um, the down time? Um no. The, um there's a thing tomorrow for, um, introduction to New Zealand. Sign language. And and I'm I'm looking forward to that. [00:03:00] Yeah, that one sounds super interesting. And Jake, you mentioned changing a tyre before. Is that your favourite? That was really good. Yeah. Um, intro to New Zealand. Sign language and morals. Maori. Sounds good. Yeah. Yeah, that sounds super interesting. So just to wrap it up here, um how have you guys enjoyed the organisation of the today? Good. Yeah, like the planets and stuff you guys find that really good. Well, [00:03:30] I'm I'm an Uranus, which is my favourite. And we made the greatest mascot that we could. It was so amazing. What was the mascot do I want to ask? It was a but with a rainbow coming out the butt. Astronauts and rocket. That's the appropriate we had. What we we we made what we could. The planet theme is quite cute. [00:04:00] And things our mascot was better. By the way, what was your mascot? Our mascot was sat in with actual rings on it and it said with one ring we had we had Uranus. It was just on the flag that was on the boat. Anyway, um, so the badges we have don't have the rings or the ring of satin on it. So we wrote don't on [00:04:30] it because they don't have the ring. Now it makes sense. And don't is our mascot nice. And, um yeah, but it was Yeah. Yeah. Alright. So we'll just wrap that up here. Is there anything else that you would like to say before I stop recording? Everybody better come back next year. Alright? And I am here tonight with your name, please, Elizabeth. Alright. [00:05:00] Elizabeth, could you please tell me a bit about your role here at the partly? It's, um as a chair of trust, uh was which is set up for and we play a role in this country around supporting and making sure that Maori Maori Protocol is used correctly, uh, around in rainbow events and activities. And so the first part was coming here to support the as [00:05:30] we came on to the marae and then through the I've been ran uh, run two workshops and taken part in another. Uh, and they're the kind of the main areas that I work in. So one was around, and so that's explaining what that is. And then looking at how kind of, from a treaty point of view, what things to take into account when groups are wanting to make their their groups their events more inclusive of. [00:06:00] And so that was the first one. The second one is as, uh, head of I'm leading the development of a national rainbow strategy, and that's about coordinating our effort across the country. But being really specific about what are the key issues for different parts of our community. So I've been talking and planning and thinking about this for about a year. This was the first formal workshop, because what I want, uh, to [00:06:30] make sure is that our young people are involved and laying the foundation for how this will move forward. And as I said with the I don't believe in having a youth voice. I believe in having multiple youth voices, uh, and particularly to make sure that we hear the voice of those young people who do not get heard in so many other environments and situations. And so we had an amazing workshop and it was really vibrant [00:07:00] and brought out a whole lot of different information. And we just discovered, What is the magic in the room? What are the things that our young people are interested in? Because, of course, they're not just interested in stuff to do with young people. We are all really complex people. We have different identities, different skills and talents, and they're engaged with so many different things. And in terms of the strategy, then there's many, many areas I'm not interested in, confining our young people to young things or things are [00:07:30] impacting on the youth community. And of course, they're all a range of identities where homophobia, biphobia and transphobia affects them. Uh, and that's something they share with their routers with other people from and and across other cultures. So that was the second one. The third one. we work with members of inside out, uh, around a relationship workshop. What does a healthy relationship look like? And so they ran the workshop for the first part of that [00:08:00] and then handed it to me and my partner a lot to talk about how how we make a healthy relationship work. And as part of the earlier project with Rainbow Youth and the You Meet US Resource on healthy relationships, I provided what Elizabeth S top relationship tips. And so we kind of went through those and how that plays out A in our relationship itself, but also how that plays out, [00:08:30] uh, when for other people and that it's relationships. It's partly the intimate relationships that we have with the people we share our lives, our bodies with, uh, but also the people in our community, the people we're in groups with the nature. What I was trying to do is get to the core of of relationships. Uh, because what we do well, in our home, we do well out in the world. Yeah, so that's what I've been doing. And I guess just being around, uh, for people to come [00:09:00] up, ask questions, get advice. I'm learning a lot. Um, So I was wondering if you could maybe please talk a bit about, um, what the has done or what you have done in your role at the to help it be a more safe and inclusive space for everybody. So the organisers have made sure that there are people who are qualified and trained to deal with, uh, young people who may be experiencing [00:09:30] trauma or, uh are feeling unsafe or uncomfortable. Uh, so there's kind of and and having elders around that have those kind of skills. Uh, so there's that layer of safety and and different mechanisms that exist in the way that workshops are run and starting to teach young people, um, how they can look for help in those situations. I think [00:10:00] in terms of safety, I think it's really important. And I think it's something that could be worked on. More is about building resilience to say, How do we in this? Make sure that we strengthen ourselves So when we're uncomfortable, Um, how we can find words, what needs to be said and and then being able to, And even if something is so uncomfortable or triggering that you need to take some time out, [00:10:30] then those kind of techniques that we've all had to learn, uh, to be able to make ourselves feel better, feel safer and stronger, to be able to come back and keep taking part in terms of being inclusive. I think that there's a huge range of identities at the in terms of sexuality and gender and it's predominantly school age kids. Uh, from my point of view, from [00:11:00] a treaty point of view and a what I always recommend, uh, to organisations. If you want to have Maori Pacific Islanders represented your events, you need Maori and Pacific Islanders on your organising group, that is, that is a given and so. But however, it's not always easy to find those people. So I always recommend that if you can't get the people and also with those skills and networks, it's not like every Maori knows every other Maori. And [00:11:30] so you know you can't put those pressure on everyone just because they to that particular culture. That's not not cool, either. Um, and then you develop relationships with people who have those networks, and it's really good. If that can be developed over time. It's never good to come to people just before and go. Hey, by the way, send us some brown people. No, it's never gonna work, but you know, so it's that thing. And again, the advocating of developing relationships because I think that this is, um is very inclusive. [00:12:00] Uh, but there's still more people, and there's always gonna be more people. So for the next year and moving forward, then what are the kind of relationships that can be built up over time? Um, and even with some of the groups who are here, uh, who have come as participants, there could be a place for them taking up more of a leadership role. Uh, so that that the work also and the burden is shared. Alright, so we're almost at the end of the weekend. Would [00:12:30] you like to talk about your favourite part? So far, my favourite part of the weekend has been after different workshops when young people have come up and just started talking and asking questions. So either they've been in a workshop I was in or we happen to sit down beside each other and we just start chatting. And so that's the thing I really valued. Uh, and also I have only really beginning to learn about, [00:13:00] um, AEX and a romantic identity. So that's something that in then we encompass all the different, uh, sexualities genders and sexes. that our people encompass and embody, uh, so coming into a more predominantly space, uh, and community where that terminology and the languaging is really important and operates a little [00:13:30] under the radar. Uh, it's really important for me when I'm representing and being involved in Rainbow Communities that I understand it from that point of view, and I make sure that my language gene is correct. And so I've really appreciated that when people are at who who identify in that way, and that is the nature of it when you're the the few that are at something and you have to keep on, uh, representing it until the rest of us pick up and we can start to speak to it as well and be [00:14:00] the allies that are needed. You know, I'm a CGE uh, lesbian fe. And so my primary identity is, uh, but I know that I present in a certain way I'm in a monogamous, long term relationship with another lesbian. Uh, so there are relationship forms that I'm I'm not involved in, and so but my role and when I see many of us who are allies in this community or members of the community. Full stop. [00:14:30] Uh, we need to make sure our languaging is up to date. We need to make sure we represent and speak to all of the different communities and all the different identities who are here. That's fantastic. Uh, just to wrap up the interview here, uh, is there anything you'd like to see? Uh, change or be added to shift in the future? I would like to see perhaps if it's inside out, building some strong relationships with other Maori, Pacific island, uh, groups and [00:15:00] to increase their representation in the leadership and which, of course, I'll be talking to them about and helping them do because I'm not into just telling people something and leaving them do it. I also think we probably need a bigger venue. I think there's a lot of young people who want who want to come into this space. And, yeah, we just might need some biggest bigger spaces, and it would be good for everyone to be sleeping closer together. Uh, [00:15:30] yeah, I think it's It will just keep going from strength to strength. We're getting more and more diversity groups out in the country. And as our young people are becoming more confident and stronger, and our schools are finally getting on board and increasingly getting on board. Then those the people wanting to engage in this conversation and having the space to be together, uh will increase because we know for some of them. So with the safest [00:16:00] space when we talk, we started at the beginning about making this a safe and inclusive space that for many, this will be the first time they've been around so many people with this diversity and, uh, which makes it a life changing experience for them. And I think you can't give that to enough people. And so I'm sure that it will continue to go from strength to strength with a like this. What is awesome and amazing to see is the [00:16:30] strength of our youth leadership that the range of skills of talents and wisdom this is an opportunity that we can see that at work. I come, of course, from a Maori point of view, where with, uh, that it is intergenerational, that our young people work with our elders and with my generation, even though I get called an elder, uh uh [00:17:00] that that then they have the opportunity to also learn from They're not operating in a vacuum, that they get the opportunity to learn from and be supportive of, those of us who are older and who have done what they have done and have to tell the dale, uh, and survive the things, the issues that we went through to get to where we are and because some of them are the same and some of them are dramatically different. Our young people are growing up in a completely different world. And so that's [00:17:30] something that I will always, uh, advocate for. Is that that intergenerational things that young we've got 13 and 14 year olds at this, uh so I always want to be able to support and be there for our youth leaders because I see I organise 09 and so many of the ones who are doing playing leadership roles in our communities at the were young people at that, and it's amazing for me to see that. [00:18:00] And so I am just really proud. I'm very proud of our young people. So this piece that I'm gonna freelance this, so I'm gonna make this stuff on the floor. By the way, I am feeling about being here. So being a performing artist, you know, we look at things in a whole another perspective. And this is how I'm feeling now. At the moment, um, about everyone myself. Yeah, just about the whole in general. Ok? Do you like the number one or [00:18:30] seven? This is the actual question seven. OK, seven colours make the rainbow. Being in the LGBT Q community, Rainbow has a big impact effect. So seven colours make the rainbow seven letters makes us friends. Seven wonders make the world seven days make a week a week, week by side looks and nudges from numerous judges. They look at me with a certain assumption reciting Who am I [00:19:00] Who am I? I am the queen. Why am I the queen? Because I have such high self esteem. I'm making my mark on the world by a new revolution of gender. Trans What is chance? What is chance? What is chance I'm asking you is, um I kind of consider it to be anything that is outside of that cisgender box that we get given at birth. [00:19:30] Let it sink into you like it has sunk into me, draining the confidence of the human that remained your eyes Seek intention. But I seek intention. Five. I was categorised to be oversized, which was never to forget. I hope you regret for this neglect three. I am free. You don't know who to refer me to. And one shifting count your blessings. That's just me freelancing and how [00:20:00] I'm feeling at the moment. Being brought into this place and not knowing anybody besides the people you come with trying to get to know other people is a feeling that is indescribable. Um, I've enjoyed being myself being free. No, I wanna be. But I'm free here. I feel like there is no pass of judgement. Sometimes [00:20:30] I just feel free, free being around people. That is similar to me for the fact that we are all equal and we are the same that there is no hierarchy. That makes me free. I've kind of laid behind the scenes a lot and watched how you and your team run it. You have taken to my eye quite a lot because you've you've stood out a lot. I see the I see the things you do for your group. I see the things you do behind [00:21:00] the scenes. You know, when we're not in group chickens, et cetera. And I think you're amazing. Thank you. Sorry. First and foremost, I have to clarify that. And I think that you're so, um, you interact with each and every one of these Children. You make an effort to go to all these workshops, which goes to show that you're an amazing leader. How can how can somebody like me aspire to be somebody like you? Um, I don't know. I think one of the things that has, uh, this is my first time at shift [00:21:30] and as a as a, um I've gone through something that has had, like, a similar emotional outcome for me, um, at my old university, because I've actually, um I'm Wellington by way of Seattle by way of Auckland. Um, yeah, yeah, my mum's my mum's the American half. And so, you know, I was born. I lived here for a bit, and then I moved to the States, and now I'm back. And, um, at my university in the States, we had this process called The Queer Experience. Where we, [00:22:00] um we were just trying to like, um, we all wrote memoirs about our our experiences in our lives. And we spent a whole like month and a half process of, like, meeting every week and, um, unpacking our experiences with each other. And, um, it was just the most validating experience. And, uh, just felt really well held and that, and we just cultivated a space where we could be vulnerable with each other. And, um, it was really, really life changing experience for me and this and is the closest that I've ever come to [00:22:30] experiencing that again. Um, and, uh, so that's the first part of it. Um, like, So I've just those ideas about, like, being just holding each other and like, like, fostering community, Um, and like, actively working on that, like, you know, um, in spite of, like, interpersonal differences because, um, you know that that totally happens. You know, we don't always get along with everybody. And, um, you know, despite that, like, I don't know, I guess I kind of believe that when we're at a when we're in this kind [00:23:00] of community space and we're this, like, packed together, we have to work to get along. So, um, how can myself and everybody else around me help you and your team in order to make this Huy better and successful? How can we contribute to help you make it run smoothie, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. I mean, it's like it's really hard because, you know, again, the age difference. You know, this is a for youths, but it's also run by [00:23:30] youths. So, like, the age difference starts to get really small at points and places, Um, again. So, uh, it makes it really hard to, you know, have any concept of authority in this place, you know? So it makes it really hard, I think to, um, to, uh, like, you know, get people to go places and to do things the positive attitude, you know. And I guess what I've been going for is that, like, um, the most important [00:24:00] thing is to build our relationships with each other. Like, I think that's I think that's the solution, you know, instead of like having a hierarchy and like Tabby's in command and you do what she says and that sort of thing, Um, well, I'll do anything Tabby says basically. But, um But, uh, you know, um, because I love her so dearly, and I'll I'll take a bullet for her, I swear. But, um uh, like, you know, I think it's more important that we build the relationships with each other sort of thing. Um, so that, you know, I don't have to use authority to get you [00:24:30] to come to the table and join our chicken in sort of thing, you know? So it's Yeah. So it's more about, like, being, you know, social with you with, you know, as a people and like getting them to want to come to you sort of thing. Maybe, You know, I guess that's more what we can do for you than the other way around that, Um But, um, I guess just reciprocating that maybe, like, you know, working on, you know, talking, you know, talking to the and working on, you know, just building relationships. That's what we're here for. [00:25:00] And I think that, like, you know, if we keep that as the central focus of what we're doing here, um, I think that that might be the smoothest way of going about it again. This is my first time at shift, too, So I don't have the experience to I don't have the experience with this particular context to, you know, feel like I'm speaking with, you know, with a little more experiential knowledge on that. Um, but based on I guess my experiences, I think that's kind of and my experiences here this weekend, I think that might be, um, the way forward and conclusions. [00:25:30] Do you think that this is going off topic? Sorry. And this is gonna short interview, but you can keep rolling. I just think that you're a beautiful person. You are amazing to down. Um, the passion I can see that thrives through you don't don't Don't ever let anybody else tell you different and just know that passion never sleeps. And I wish you well in life. And, you know, you've really, um, had an impact on my life one way or another. So I just think that when I do something creative and it'll [00:26:00] be it's from your influence in one way or another. But no, honestly, you plus me equal solidarity. We are all equal. And just remember that you are amazing. Thank you for.

IRN: 1064
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/shift_hui_2016_faith_forum.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004448
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089742
TITLE: Faith forum - Shift hui (2016)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Brittany Hobcraft; Christoph Hackenberg; Jessica-Rose Hopkins; Maggie Shippam; Peter Williams; Torranice Campel
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Auckland; Australia; Austria; Bible; Brittany Hobcraft; Buddhism; Catholicism; Christian camp; Christian youth group; Christianity; Christoph Hackenberg; God; InsideOUT Kōaro; Jessica-Rose Hopkins; Job; Judaism; Maggie Shippam; Mormonism; Niue; Pacific; Pasifika; Peter Williams; Pope Francis; Roman Catholicism; Samoa; Shift hui; Shift hui (2015); Shift hui (2016); Tapu te Ranga Marae; Torranice Campel; abomination; atheism; baptism; belonging; bonding ceremony; church; clothing; communion; condoms; congregation; dresses; encouragement; excommunication; faith; family; gay; healing; homophobia; hope; intersex; isolation; karakia; language; leadership; lesbian; marriage equality; media; parents; patience; patriarchal system; politics; queer; religion; safe space; safety plan; school; skirt; spirituality; support; tangata whenua; tikanga; transgender; values; volunteer; wellbeing; worship; youth; youth group
DATE: 24 April 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Tapu te Ranga Marae, 46C Rhine Street, Island Bay, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the faith forum. The discussion was facilitated by Maggie Shippam and featured Christoph Hackenburg, Torranice Campel, Peter Williams, Jessica-Rose Hopkins and Brittany Hobcraft.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So Hi, everybody. Um, so this is my first workshop, Uh, So bear with me. Um, it's just about the intersectionality between, uh, people of faith, or have come from a background of faith and, um, identify with a diverse range of, uh, sexuality, sexes and genders. Um, so if you want to start, Yeah, um, as I said, I'm Christo. I'm originally from Austria. [00:00:30] Um, I'm part of the Roman Catholic Church because I was baptised and had my first communion and, um, confirmation, I think. Yeah. Um, um I don't feel part of the church anymore, but I I'm in a that the Catholic church has, um, a strong influence in everyday life. So it's part of my my home culture, [00:01:00] and, um, part of who I am and how I grew up. Um, just an example. It's just, um, going deep into politics that, um, parties listening to the bishop conference and getting advice from them. Um, that we have lost that, um, when you are part of the church, that, um, part of your salary is deducted. Um, so it's kind of like the whole lifestyle and also is very be dominant, [00:01:30] um, catholic, and that's how I grew up in Austria. Um, I also worked a long time for a Catholic, um, Children's organisation. Um, yeah. Just work volunteering, um, under under the family bishop in Austria. Um, um, who has quite a strong stance against homosexuality. So, [00:02:00] um, yeah, that's that's one part of my difficult story. Um, So I'll continue. I do want to introduce him, and we can continue. Um, yeah, faith and spirituality is, um, hard to explain for me. Um, as I said, I've worked for the, um, Catholic organisation, and in this setting, I was I was out. So there was There were employees [00:02:30] who got paid in the office, and there were volunteers, and they all knew that, um, I identified as gay back then, and they all knew that I was gay. Um, just not, uh, in the hierarchy of high ups of the bishop and and the priests. They didn't know that I'm gay. Not because I didn't tell them, but just it never came up. Um, and, um, on the other side, I worked as well for, um, [00:03:00] for a gay and lesbian organisation and that kind of a school art project. There I was leading the project. And, um, I had kind of those two worlds at the same time. And I think that's often the struggle with combining your faith with your sexuality or gender identity that you have to get this balance right. And for a long time, for me, the balance was OK, Um, and in the setting [00:03:30] of the Catholic Church, I could change small things. But you can't change the whole institution at once, just as an individual. And for me, it was more living my spirituality in this setting. And, um yeah, and it was fine for a long time for me. But at some stage, I felt [00:04:00] more like myself in the setting of the of the gay and lesbian organisation of the volunteer work. I did there because they accepted more of me rather than the Catholic selling where I worked in um, and in Austria, you can drop out of the church so you can decide you don't want to be part of the Roman Catholic Church anymore. And then you don't have to pay your your fees from your salary anymore. That's what [00:04:30] a lot of people do when they are fed up with the church or have problems, then they just drop out of it. And at some stage, I did that because I couldn't balance it anymore. Because I felt more like myself in the one setting and less as a whole in the other setting, because I always had to please and, um, just stretch myself into a direction I didn't want to. Yeah. [00:05:00] Um, so I grew up and a Well, my mom is a Christian, and we were going to church, and I'm sorry. Um, I was baptised as a child. I had my first communion, uh, at our family church and, um, that sort of thing. And I think, Yeah. So, [00:05:30] like, I did some, uh, youth work through some churches as I was sort of growing up. And, um, yeah, I guess that trying to find where you can fit when you don't know people's views and how you can sort of subtly slide that into a conversation and stuff like that. So I guess like, I still identify, uh, as Christian. Although my values may be somewhat different [00:06:00] to what others see as Christian, I think like I've sort of made my own definition to it. because of what it is to me, if that makes sense, you know? So, yeah. Oh, I was born and raised in the Mormon faith. Um, both my parents are strong mormons. Um, and my great great grandma was a part of the, um, push to get [00:06:30] a, um, a church in new, a new and Yeah, and I'll touch base on my story after that introduction. Awesome. Um, hi, everyone. Um, my one is a bit complex. Um, but yeah, I'll try to explain as much as I can, but feel free a after this session to ask me questions. Um, I was born in, um, in a family that didn't, uh, attend church. We [00:07:00] didn't have, um, a religion as such, which is quite weird in a Pacific family. Um, but when I did attend church and associate myself with religion, it was when my auntie came in the picture, and it was with the Christian Church. Um, and, you know, I went about my journey, uh, trying to find myself in a church, and things didn't work out as well as I wanted it to. Um, eventually, I discovered, uh, a belief in a congregation that I'm currently [00:07:30] with, um and we called the, um We're a mixture of Christian practise as well as Jewish Messianic practises as well. Um, just a bit of context for you guys as, um existed. Um, it's It's an ancient faith, and it existed in the time of Jesus. Or as we call him Yeshua, Um, in the Hebrew language. Um, they've been known, uh, for writing the scrolls. Um, and they they practise, um, spirituality. They practise [00:08:00] healing. Um, and they're quite accepting of diverse genders and sexualities as well. Which was another reason why I was quite open to it, but yeah. Thank you. Hi. Hi. Um, so when I was little, um, I was, like, two and my parents split up. Um, So when I was at dad's, um, I was pretty much half raised by my nana. Her She would like come to our house every like, 2 to 3 times a week. And every time she there, we have, like, bible time on Christian and [00:08:30] have, like, bible time. And she'd read me Bible stories. And when I never really went to church, but that was like what I like got And then so that continued. And then July last year, she passed away. So, um and then I started going to, um, like a youth group in Mount Eden because I felt like I needed to because, like, that's what she want for me. And but then when I was there, I realised I actually enjoyed it. And I actually, like, follow it and stuff. But [00:09:00] yeah, like, I don't know. I don't really identify as a Christian, but I still go like because I don't know, I kind of like some of the messages are quite good. Like because, um, the youth group I go to not all of it's like like shoving like religion down your throat and stuff. It's mainly like, um, like, some of them are really good, like life messages like respecting your body and stuff like that. So yeah, mhm. [00:09:30] Um, so are you open about your faith in Queer spaces or with Queer people? And how has that been received? I probably like I'm not as open about it as I'd actually like to be. And I think that's often because sometimes religion can be made into such a joke as well, you know, um, especially in queer spaces, I think, um, so yeah, Not not as much [00:10:00] as I'd like to be. Yeah, it depends. Yeah, Sometimes it's It's hard to be, uh, to talk about religion or or faith in a queer setting because a lot of people had problems in the past, Um, that the church was not very accepting. Um, a lot of people just I really fed up about the whole institution itself, detached from what it actually should be and and mean. [00:10:30] So there was a lot of hate going on, and, um, was the same in Austria as in, um, in New Zealand. Probably like 30 years ago, when, um, faith groups just raced a lot. And, um, yeah, I would. Well, at the moment, I'm starting to find back and find my spirituality again. But in the past, um, I would [00:11:00] have liked to be more open about it, but yeah, as you said jokes and, um, some relax. And so, like, I just fear of sufficient missionary. It's kind of, you know, yes. I don't think, um, religion or faith should be hidden. I'm quite open to it. Um, and I guess that's just how I've been raised And if someone has a problem with it [00:11:30] Oh, well, yeah, I agree with I think a lot of my friends, um, know what faith I follow. Um, I do also agree that maybe there's an opportunity for more discussion around it. Um, because I see that there's some spaces. Um, where it's where there's a need for it. Um, because as well as home school and, um, in the community within the community, The church. Um, [00:12:00] I guess talking about the church is not talked about enough. Um, but yeah. I don't know. I think it's definitely needed. Yeah. I'm not really, like, open about my faith and, like, queer spaces and stuff because I feel like it could make some people uncomfortable. Like they could feel, like, uncomfortable with me. Maybe they think, like, I'll judge them or something, but yeah. Yeah. Uh, is there a place where [00:12:30] you feel accepted to show both of your identities? Well done, I guess. At home. How does that count? You know, like I think I've been really blessed with the family that I have. Um my mom is, uh, Christian and has similar values and sort of defines Christianity herself. with, you know, different. Yeah. Anyway, um, [00:13:00] and, um, yeah, they're really loving and accepting of, uh, I guess where my sister and I identify and how we are just ourselves. So I guess homes pretty much the main thing for me. My parents are not very religious. Never. I've been, um the last time I felt accepted with [00:13:30] both things was when I went with my partner, um, to church last Christmas. Yeah, he was raised, um, atheist, Which is quite funny because he gets more into faith, the older he gets, and I'm going in the other direction, which is a little bit hard to balance. Um, but that was when I felt felt [00:14:00] OK with both things. Yeah. Oh, when I was, um, 13 years old, I was shifted to go stay with my dad's brother, Um, who holds a, um, priesthood within our family because he's the eldest brother. Um, and I had my life planned out for me that I would attend church college. Um, at this time, I was still within my safe space, trying to figure out who I was as a person. Um, [00:14:30] and I knew that I was different, and I knew that I was attracted to boys. I knew that I wanted to be a girl. And I was against the teachings of the gospel within the Mormon faith. Um, so I had to, like, quickly think of how am I going to get out of this situation? Because my life has already been planned for me. Um, so I decided that I'm gonna have a fight with my cousin and get kicked out and shift it back to my parents. Um, and that's exactly how it played out. Um, yeah. [00:15:00] So I got shifted back to my parents, and I knew that this was a start for me, because if my life was planned out for me, I'll be doing everything, um, for people, not for myself. Um, And then, at the age of 60 I continued to go to church and, um, within the Mormon faith, there's, like, tears of, like, the ironic priesthood, and then priests and teachers. And I got up to the tier of [00:15:30] priests, and, um, I just knew it wasn't right for me. Um, and even having the, um, you know, having the the role of serving sacrament. Um, you know, it was a little bit too much for me because I didn't want to wear a suit and tie. I wanted to wear a skirt like all the other girls. Um, so one day I had to plan, like, [00:16:00] what is this gonna look like for me? Because I'm so caught up with, um, you know, the run at priesthood, that if I was to rock up to church in a skirt, how are they gonna approach the situation? Um And so one day, I decided to go to church in a school, and I was asked to go and speak to our bishop and the bishop had, um said to me that what I'm doing is really, really wrong. And, um, I despaired because [00:16:30] I had worked up so much courage just to wear this, wear the skirt to church. And everyone was looking at me like I was a thing. No, I was a person. I was a thing. Um, and, you know, I tried to hold my pride, and, um, yeah, speaking to the bishop and the bishop, telling me that what I was doing was wrong was, um, clarification that maybe this is church isn't the right church for me. Um, because [00:17:00] there's, like, a sign in front of our church that says all welcome and clearly that there was no welcome for people like myself and still at this at this age, I was still trying to find my identity or, you know, find myself as a person knowing that I wanted to be a woman knowing that, you know, I'm trying to create safe plan safety plans for me to, um, express that, um and then, Yeah, And like just all the relationships and the history [00:17:30] of being raised in the church, it was like it was put to the side like I never existed and no one contacted me. And then I found out that, you know, I was excommunicated from the church because, um, you know, when you look at words like abomination, it's that word actually means, if you know you're doing something wrong, it's an abomination. Whether it's, you know, against the values and principles of, um, of of your faith. For us, that's [00:18:00] abomination. And apparently I was an abomination at that time. And within this time, I I always gave the anger and frustration to God because II, I didn't really understand. Why was I put on to this earth? Um, because everything just wasn't going according to my plan that I had set for myself. Um and yeah. Then if you are familiar with the Bible, there's a story about job and how job was, um tested, [00:18:30] Um, because he had so much integrity for God and, you know, and just finding that love for God in your heart it's it's such a powerful, um, a powerful feeling that regardless of what people say, whether you know you're transgender or, you know, you're from the rain space and you're a Christian, um, it it's not really valid to me. You know? It doesn't really hurt me because I found that place. [00:19:00] Um, with God, you know, I put my heart to God and, um, going back to, you know, job job was, um, put, you know, he was he enjoyed so many challenges. And I feel like, you know, I can relate because, you know, like, losing friends. And, um, all these people so close to you or people you thought were so close to you just disappearing and like for me, I don't blame, You know, I don't blame them [00:19:30] because it came as a shock. I didn't approach and say, Hey, guys, you know, because I didn't know myself, but, um, I really thought that out of all people, my own like congregation would be there supporting me. Um, and clearly, it wasn't what I had planned. But anyways, um, for me, when I look at what is a Christian although, you know, our faiths or religions Mormon, Um, I believe [00:20:00] like a Christian is a follow of Christ. And in order for, um, yeah, to live the teachings of you know what God has paid for us. There needs to be, like, open discussions around, like, you know, faith and religion. And people get like, you know, spirituality and stuff mixed up with, like, religion and faith. And yeah, for me, I'm, like, really clear And like, my principles and my being as a person. [00:20:30] So, um, that's a question. You, bro. Um, I'm just buzzing up because, um, I, I I'm seeing a lot of similarities And what, um, my panellists have said and I'm pretty sure there's similarities within all of our stories when it comes to faith in church and religion. Um, like um, some of the spaces that I have felt uncomfortable, um, being myself or expressing myself and my worship to God, [00:21:00] um, has been when I was in the Christian church, and it's it's it's not a representative of the whole Christian Church, but just that church in particular. Um, where at the time, I was a part of the worship team And, um, you know, every Sunday I'd be singing on that stage my worship to God, And, um, part of me felt a bit conflicted because I didn't feel like I had a right to be on that stage singing worship because of who I was. [00:21:30] And, um, when things kind of unfolded, um, and the news broke out that I was the way that I was that I was gay. And, um, at that time I had a partner, Um, like my sister and niece, I started to see that a lot of the people that I thought were my real friends, um, started to reveal themselves in their true intentions. Um, and you know, I can I can definitely say it's the most heartbreaking thing as a young person to go through, Um, [00:22:00] but at the same time. There's always hope at the end of the tunnel and I. I look back now on my journey, and I just think how fortunate I am to be in the space that I am at, um, Where I feel confident in myself and my faith. Um, And I'm in a place now, um, that I feel comfortable, You know, the faith that I practise. Um, you know, they're so accepting of gender and sexuality, diverse people, um, that I remember on the first day I sat down on my first kind [00:22:30] of worship session, and, um, my partner, Alex who I think a lot of you have met. But some of you haven't, um He had been going to this faith before. Um, and a lot of his family members is in this faith as well. And I remember the first time that I went to this congregation. Um, And the thing that kind of stood out for me that made me aware that I was accepted was when the, um we call it our rabbi or some of you call it your pastor. So it's our teacher. He got [00:23:00] up on the session and he said, um I would just like to welcome Alex and his partner, Peter. And that was one of the most like, fulfilling things that I've ever felt in my life because upon entering the building of the, um, worship it kind of I, I felt uncomfortable already, because in my mind, I had already, um, built up situations in my mind of what was going to happen. People were not going to accept me. People were gonna, um, call me, you know, all everything under the sun. Um, but then when that happened, [00:23:30] it kind of opened my eyes to the fact that, yes, you can be rainbow. And yes, you can worship God, and, um also the fact that we shouldn't be defined by what people say about us. Um, so in a sense, it's an encouragement to myself and to us all, um, that if you do want to practise a belief or faith, then, um, continue on it. Don't. Don't let the world discourage you from, um following that path for yourself. Discover it for yourself. Because I feel like we're all at this stage where [00:24:00] I know for myself as well where I'm still discovering new things every day, and it will always be a learning process. There's never an end point where you'll get to that. You will say I definitely know who I am, you know? You're always discovering it. Yeah. Um, can you please repeat the question? So that was, uh, is there a Is there a place where you feel accepted to show both of your identities? Not really like school. I kind of don't [00:24:30] like share both because it's like because my school is very like, culturally diverse. So there's a lot of different religions and stuff and, like maybe if I share my ideas and my thoughts and may offend someone or I don't really want, like, an argument or something and about like, my sexuality and stuff, Um, I don't I'm not really out at school or anywhere else, but to [00:25:00] my parents. And last year, like rumours got out about me, and then I found out like what you're saying, like the true friends. Um, my friends were telling me to get out of the girl's bathroom because I was gonna pour on them or something. So they as soon as I went to the bathroom, they would leave or stuff like that. So and yeah, at church, I don't really like I'm not out and yeah, OK, uh, what are some things that you would like [00:25:30] people to know about your faith? You can be religious or Christian or whatever, and you don't have to be a bad guy, you know, like I think so. Often people are like, Oh, Christians are terrible people, like they're off doing protests and doing all these really terrible things all over the world. But actually, like there are, you know, you've got to get to know the individual. You can't judge everyone for that. [00:26:00] And I guess that's one thing that it's sort of like, Oh, you're a Christian and it's sort of like have a with me about it and find out how I like why I identify as that and, you know, sort of unpack it a bit because there are so many different religions, even on this panel, you know, we see that there's a variety and, um, you know, although we may have the same title to what we identify as we often have those different [00:26:30] values and that sort of thing. So I guess just acknowledging individuals within that title. You know, little bit side tracking, probably on the question, but following up on, um, what you said, um, I use spirituality more often because I'm very reluctant to use the term religion or religious, because for me, it's always this whole institution that is against me rather [00:27:00] than what I actually feel with the church and with my faith. That's why I'm Yeah, I wish I would have been braver to go the path along rather than just say I had enough and I don't want to deal with it anymore. And, um, yeah, I think that's something to be to find their own pathway. And and everyone, [00:27:30] um has to shape their own faith, how it feels good for them. And I think that's one important part. It's always a There's no goal, you know. It's always a pathway, and you always learn new things. And and I think that's that's exciting but also a little bit boring as well. Because, yeah, you're not sure where to go and what comes along. Yeah, [00:28:00] I No, no. Um, what are some things that you would like people to know about? Your faith. Now, I think I've already shared majority of it. Um, but I guess, um, fact that I follow we we practise a lot of, um it's so hard to find a word for it, but, um, i'll just use spirituality. Yeah, um, we're less likely to use the term religion. Uh, we're more [00:28:30] associated with the word spirituality because we kind of see how we see. Um, we have this approach where we see all religions as a part of God. You know, um, therefore, our study when we study every Sunday. So we have our our worship on Saturdays because in our belief, um, that's what we believe. That the original Sabbath is on Saturdays and on Sundays. We have our studies, and what we do is we We study about every religion under the sun. We we've recently learned about Buddhism. [00:29:00] Um, and we're continuing to make our way around. Um, so I believe we believe, like I said, that, um, every religion represents a part of God, and his nature is represented in every single religion. Um, and I, I feel like for me, that's helped me see people for who they are, um, and see their belief as something really beautiful rather than, you know, relying on the media or, um, the people around me as a source for a label for certain religions. So [00:29:30] that's been really helpful for me anyway. Oh, yeah. Um, just that, like, you don't have to follow everything in the Bible like you can take the bits that are closest to you, like and but like, when people like use the Bible to insult people like like homophobia and stuff, they just take the bits that are like gonna hurt people. But they don't follow everything. And it's like, [00:30:00] Well, if you're gonna follow something so strictly, then you're gonna Then you should follow others like, but yeah, like for me, I ignore, like the ho the homophobic parts of the Bible because I'm like, Well, that's not relevant to me. So I follow this stuff like, that's, like, good teaching and stuff. Hm. Yeah, I feel, um for me, like being raised in in the church, it was more like, I think, like a lot of [00:30:30] like our pacific or, you know, like religion and culture is always mixed, and they try and combine the two to, like, take their comfort or suitable I think. And, um, yeah, it's such a confusing. I know it's confusing to get gist of it, but, um, yeah, I've been like I do workshops and stuff in schools with young people and within the professional setting as well. And like, people always come at me with, like, [00:31:00] religious stuff, and, you know, for me, it's like if we're looking at, you know, trying to find a religion, you gotta be OK with yourself. Because, you know, if you're OK with yourself, Like what people say really isn't valid. Thanks. Um, what would you say to people who might be stuck in the middle between, uh, their faith, their gender, sexuality or, um, [00:31:30] sex identity feeling like they need to choose one or the other? Sorry, if you don't mind that, um, don't choose one or the other. Um, continue viewing you, um, I. I know there may be some cases in situations where you feel like you have to, and sometimes you sometimes in situations where you you might feel like you're in danger. Or, um, you might be putting yourself in a risky situation. It may just mean that you have to for that meantime, [00:32:00] um, but for the long run, and I know it's a continual process, um, that we each have to go through individually. But, um, I think it's a learning, um that a lot of I don't speak on behalf of my partner, but I'm pretty sure it's a learning that we've all taken that, um, along the way. You kind of find that both the identities merge and then, you know, it's It's a growing thing where you start to learn that. Hey, I don't need to separate them. I could be both at the same time [00:32:30] and I can still be accepted. Um, so, yeah, I guess it's just knowing as well that there are people out there who accept people who let's say, are gay and are Christian at the same time. It's completely normal, and there are people out there like that. So just be open to it. Yeah, I like agree, like you shouldn't have to pick. You should, like, find your middle ground like you don't have to follow everything that's not relevant to you. So say if you're like queer and you want to follow things from the Bible, you can just choose those things [00:33:00] and just follow them. And like Christians that say, pick one or the other, it comes down to you as an individual of what works best for you. Hm? Enjoy the journey. You know, um, it's easier said than done. I guess when you're at the end of it. But I think, um, really valuing that, actually, your journey to figuring out where you're [00:33:30] at. And, um, how you want to identify whether that's, um, faith wise or gender sexuality, Um, I think just really embrace it and go with it. And yeah, you totally don't need to choose. I definitely agree with that. Um, And there are supports out there, too, though, as well, Like, um queer spaces or, um, faith spaces. Or, you know, like I think there are supports there. [00:34:00] So I think you're also not alone because, you know, we've all been through similar things as far as the journey goes, you know, And, um, I think lots of people go through that journey, so definitely, yeah, keep going. And it does continue like it doesn't stop, but it just maybe gets a little easier after a while. So I think just definitely Yeah, I think find the right people. You will meet a lot of people who would discourage you and let [00:34:30] you choose one or the other. And I think they just don't get it. And they don't get you and they don't understand where you are. And I think if you search for other people, you will find your way easier. Yeah, and I often wish I would have met people earlier or on a different stage. But yeah, that's just part of the journey as well. And I think the people make the church because, [00:35:00] yeah, that's like when you have priests who totally out of context, it's easy to discourage you to follow your faith. And then you meet others where you can be who you are and what you want, and it's so easy to live how you are. And I would always just say, find the right people. Um, this is sort of a strange [00:35:30] question, But, um, how does faith make you feel or your faith? Um, how has it benefited you? 10 being connected to the church? It's a sense of belonging, and I know like within my heart that God has a plan for me and in order for me to to get to where he wants me to be, um, that there's gonna be all these challenges that come. They come on to this path [00:36:00] of my journey. And, um, I know that we're just like renters in this world that there's a better world after this life, but we need to live this life in order to get to that life. Hm. Um, like attorneys, I agree with the the sense of belonging. Um, and also, um, in the year 2013, I was really fortunate. Um uh, because there was a there [00:36:30] was, you know, like a marriage or bonding ceremony held for me and my partner, which is really, really special. Um, and it was the first of its kind that was done in our congregation. Um, so that that that was that was like the the stamp on the leader to say Yes, you are definitely accepted. Um, so that that's how it's made me feel. And it's continued to build spaces where I can discuss more and educate the people in our congregation about who we are and what the other identities are in in the rainbow space [00:37:00] um, but yeah, I also feel like, um, you know, with the whole well-being thing. You know, when when we're unwell. Um, mentally, Spiritually, Emotionally. Um, having a faith really centres you. And, um, you know, after a long week, you get to that place where you, um, where you get to worship or where you get to let things out, and it's it's an awesome place to be able to express who you are and [00:37:30] express your feelings. Um, and I. I think that works right across the board with all faiths like it's such an awesome opportunity and platform for you to express who you are, Um, whether it's in prayer or whether it's in music or, um using any kind of medium. I think it's awesome. I do kind of feel, um, isolated sometimes at church because like some of the preachings are [00:38:00] like homophobic and stuff. And then you feel like it's targeted to you because you're sitting there and you've got all these thoughts going through your head, and they're saying that like you're wrong and stuff like that, Um, because earlier this year I went to like a Christian camp, and, um, it was like a four day camp and one of the nights the preaching was, um this man he was telling a story about when he was driving home. He saw a billboard saying like the air or something, and [00:38:30] he was saying how, like, despicable it was that these things were on billboards. And then he goes ahead and talks about K Road, and he said that there's like, same sex couples on billboards and how it's so disgusting and an abomination and stuff. And I was just sitting there thinking, like, Am I an abomination? Is this targeted at me? So, um, yeah, mhm. But I feel like it kind of has made me stronger. Like because, yeah, [00:39:00] I think there's definitely like that, um, that isolation to it, Like I think. Definitely. Um yeah. Trying to find the people that have those values that are, um, similar or same to you. And, um, making those supports is really, really powerful. And having those, um, people to sort of that encouragement [00:39:30] as well. And, you know, reminding you you're not alone, that sort of thing. I think that's been really great, but I think like I was doing, uh, youth work in a local church, and, um, one of the other youth workers there was very clear on where his values lay. And, um, I went and spoke to one of the pastors [00:40:00] and said, actually, you know, where does the church values lie? Where, um, around, um, non hetero, non binary, that sort of thing. Um, and there was never a straight answer. Um, I was never able to be told an exact answer. And I think that's when I was able to say, Well, you know, like this, this isn't for me. Like this isn't the space I don't need to be, [00:40:30] Um I guess, like, put down in what I was doing because of the other person's values. And so I think, Yeah, definitely finding those people that are encouraging you and, you know, being OK to stand up and acknowledge that you're worth so much. And you definitely don't. Yeah, I think just finding the people is so important. And I think, yeah, they're definitely the people and that we will stick by you, and they're the huge [00:41:00] benefit, I guess of the whole journey. So just sorry and in any setting, you know, if you go by the fruits of that. You know, if you go to a church and you just feel that negative energy, you know, some churches, uh, you know, preach false. Um, you know, preachings. And that's not teachings of God. That's teachings of it's, um, manmade teachings. So, yeah, just [00:41:30] look at the fruits of the, um of the church or yeah, And if it doesn't align with what you think God has, you know, created for us, go to another church. Me? Yeah. I think there's some sense of joy and together being together and bringing people together. It is very strong for me. And it's, um, this [00:42:00] the core of most religions is just, um, just to think about the others as well. No one is less important than you are, um, about being showing empathy to to others and just having this, um, the sense of of being together on this earth and helping each other and standing up for each other. And I think that's [00:42:30] what makes me who I am. And that shaped quite a bit of my personality as well. And I found it through through faith and through religion. Thank you. Um, what do you think queer communities can do to be more inclusive of, uh, people will face? Don't be afraid to question. You know, I think like there are so many things that [00:43:00] people just don't want to talk about or find it awkward to talk about. But I think just sitting down and having a is just so amazing and having discussions. And, you know, learning about things and asking about things and questioning yourself, questioning others. And I think making queer spaces a safe space to do that because I think there's just so many spaces where we already don't feel safe. And I think being able to make the queer spaces stronger [00:43:30] and more supportive to everyone Um yeah, I guess. Just making discussion times, OK? And yeah, I guess just that openness to actually we might not agree on things, but that's OK as well. You know that That's respect and safe spaces and the judgement free and also sort of the jokes, I guess, is a huge thing for me. Um, so I guess [00:44:00] just being careful of where other people's values lie versus what you're saying yeah, you're talking about is is I think a very important factor just addressing the the elephant in the room because we are providing spaces where we come together and of different ethnicities, of different cultures, of different sexualities, gender identities. And we are so open. But there's this [00:44:30] elephant in the corner which nobody wants to talk about, and it's it's often the fact that there's the silence. And we just changed topics because nobody, everyone feels awkward talking about it. And I think we should overcome this feeling of awkwardness and a bit feeling uncomfortable. Yeah, And even when you don't believe or don't say or would say you have no faith, [00:45:00] then that's OK as well. You don't have to. There's no one who wants to. Yeah, no one wants to put their faith on you so you don't have to take it all in. Yeah. Yeah, like, um, that, um, just normalising the discussions and because, like, if you don't know if you don't ask, [00:45:30] you won't know, You know? Yeah. Nothing to be ashamed of. I think just being more open about, um, who you are and what faith you follow. I remember when I was younger. Um, I was probably the only person that I knew of that was gay and followed a faith. Um, but I know that, um the more and more that we have that people rise and say, Oh, yes, I'm gay or yes, I'm lesbian or transgender [00:46:00] And I identify with this faith, the more those discussions have become normal and more other people will rise and be able to say yes, I follow a faith as well, so I kind of feel like at the moment, um, that whole discussion is being swept underneath the carpet. Um, and people feel ashamed to come out and say, Oh, my gosh, I'm Christian, you know, Um but, yeah, just more people being open about who they are. I think it will become more like my sister said. It's like it's own coming out process. [00:46:30] It's another closet on its own. But yeah, everything takes time. So and I think discussions are good because you shouldn't, like, assume things. You shouldn't assume that they like they are homophobic or that they follow everything in the Bible and stuff. But yeah, I feel like I relate to like the elephant in the room thing because, like, say, you're in a queer space. The elephant in the room would be like your [00:47:00] faith, but then when you're in like like a church or somewhere, the elephant in the room would be your sexuality. So it's like trying to balance. Um, is there anything else you'd like to add before we open up the circle of the victims? I just think that we're really fortunate to live here in New Zealand because I've lived in Australia and been so many protests where it's just like, hate, you know, um, messages of hate towards our community. And I'm so fortunate that I live here [00:47:30] and where we're able to adapt to and apply that in our settings of, you know, our daily lives. So, yeah, you know, it's normalised like within, you know, living here. We're able to open up all kind of and I. I don't think it offends anyone. Everyone just knows that that's the you know, that's what we said, Um, before we Yeah, before we start anything. [00:48:00] Yeah, I was in, um, Aussie for like, a few days last year, and, um, early last year and the news was on, and they were discussing, like, gay marriage and stuff and marriage, equality. And they were calling, like being, like, gay and queer and stuff a fad. And it was making me, like, really mad that, like, here, we're like, we've got like, um, gay marriage and stuff, and but there they don't. And we're kind of like cousin countries. [00:48:30] So shouldn't we, like, I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. I'm going, but yeah. OK, so I'm gonna open up the round for questions. Um, Or if you have any experiences yourself of being a person of faith or coming from the background, that's fine, too. Um, I got two questions. Um, firstly, possibly Christoph, Um, [00:49:00] I'm not quite sure how the Roman Catholic system is. Um, but in Austria, do they follow the pope? Yeah. So what's the kind of consensus of the current pope and some of the more lenient, um, kind of changes that he's advocating? Well, I'm quite surprised with the new pope, and I think, um [00:49:30] what he you have to you have to think about the pope as, like this huge institution. He has to change. And I think what he does in his term or what he did already in his term, is quite significant, even when people just see one line, he says. I think it's very powerful, because everything he does has such a huge impact. And like all the bishops in Austria, [00:50:00] they fall. They are, um they are assigned from the pope directly. So, um, in all the dioceses in Austria, the bishop follow what what the pope says and when he reforms things. And there was quite a significant change from the last pope, um, from Benedict to to Francisco's, um Offences and and I think you can see [00:50:30] it in the politics as well. As I said in Austrian politics, especially from the National Party, um, they get advice from the Bishop conference and if the pope changes the line politics change in Austria as well. We are, um, in Austria. The marriage is not open yet, and there are things still to be done, and Austria is one of the Western Bay Forward countries, and, um, [00:51:00] but in the in this sense, we are quite backward sometimes as well. I feel like the Catholic Church is slowly moving forward, though, like since Francis has come into power like they're starting to acknowledge that like homosexuality is real and that there needs to be like things put in place to protect that, like the pope's, um, given the OK for condoms to be used by gay men, which kind of by way gives permission for gay men to be having sex with the church, which is a small step. But [00:51:30] it's a big step for the church, but a lot of people, it seems, it's like, Oh, yeah, he says that. But it's it's quite significant because a lot of that, um, like aid organisations are based on the on on faith. And they come from a faith background like the Red Cross or, um, Caritas or all those organisations who work in these spaces are just yeah, quite linked to the church as well. [00:52:00] Um, And so anyone on the panel, um, how does your faith consider the identity of God? And how is is it like, the same as the sort of most common idea of God's being dressed as he and him [00:52:30] and how? Yeah, like, does that sort of align with your beli? Hm? Yeah, I think so. Um, and our belief he's not addressed as he or she, um we address him as I don't know, um, we don't and and I believe it is forbidden for us to know the actual name of God. So we use terms that translate [00:53:00] to, um, like, who? Which translate pretty much to To God, Not his actual name or her actual name. Uh, it is. It's in within our belief that, um, even the angels have no sex. They're neither male or female. Um, but yeah, Feel free to ask you questions afterwards, because it goes, Yeah, it really? Yeah. What was the question? I felt like that. [00:53:30] And I kind of like, how do you feel about the way God is gendered? Because I think it's just But that's what I've been to. And that's what we're familiar with. So we adapt to, I guess for everyone there's, like, a consensus that he is a he. Do you feel like [00:54:00] it? Maybe. Thank you. Considers masculinity as like, the natural, uh, creation. Um, does it does it sort of prioritise like masculinity on the higher patriarchal? [00:54:30] Yeah. Yeah. Oh, So my understanding is like when when referring to God is like, AAA greater being to a point where, um yeah, it it eventually turned into he. But actually, it says God is good with God was happy. God was, And so there was no Oh, well, actually, I probably need to have a look again. Can't be certain what comes out of my mouth. But, um, the thing is, like, Man was made in his, [00:55:00] um, in his image, but that we are his image. So yeah, so it's like it doesn't matter. We are all his image. So that's my understanding of, um So in terms of he, it's irrelevant to me because, like, if you were to believe that, then you are just a part of Gosh, I've heard had some interesting perspective from an insect person who, [00:55:30] um from the idea that Adam was made in God's image. And then Eve was created from the, um the bone of Adam and the way this person took that was to to see that So God has both this male and female intrinsic to them. And [00:56:00] it was kind of this first human was made in God's image and then separated out into Adam. And so, yeah, that was a just a perspective that I heard. I think another thing around that as well is it's important to take into account the fact that, um, we're reading, um, holy books that come from different traditions [00:56:30] than what we understand in the Western world. Not only traditions, but also languages that have been mistranslated time and time again. Um and so there are projects currently happening that are how do we accurately translate, um, both Old Testament and New Testament? Because remembering that the old Testament, um, are the books of Judaism, Um, and the New Testament are the books of Christianity. Um, how do we accurately [00:57:00] translate those things so that they're actually portraying the the actual meanings? So, for example, when you look at the word Adam in, um, in Hebrew, it's and is was translated as Adam because they're like, Oh, I guess it is the Adam. But, um, often that's translated as human. Um, and so that kind of theory works in as well. Um, the other thing I was gonna say around that is, um if you look [00:57:30] at also language, So, for example, you look at the Pacific and all of our languages we don't have gender pronouns. Um, you know, if you're talking about or you're saying, um, in Samoa, Um, in like in New Zealand, in Maori, it's the same kind of concept, um, where there's no gender of our pronouns. And so when we're, you know, as a Pacific who as a Pacific person who grew up in a in a Pacific in a Simon language [00:58:00] church, um, we don't talk about, you know, give when we're speaking as Simon, we're saying when we're referring to God, you know? And so all of that sort of, um, language doesn't put gender to it. The gender comes in from a western lens that's been imposed from, um, you know, early early churches back in the, um uh, [00:58:30] like, 80 like early eighties early, early time after Christ, Um, and so that the concept of God is male is a human made concept. Um, And it it does have a lot of political bollocks that's impacted on all of that ideology as well. Um, so it's really good to deconstruct those ideas around what is the gender of God. But also, I guess at the same time, [00:59:00] um, God doesn't have, you know, this is my gender, because in those holy books, it's not referred to as God has gender. It's just referred to as God is God and the only Yeah, and sorry. Um, you saw, um, the panel that was in we were here yesterday morning. Um, so I touched on a little bit on religion. And, um, first of all, I just want to say thank [00:59:30] you to you guys for creating this space for us. It is a very important area that needs to be discussed. And I know about a year and a half ago I attended my first sort of event, Sim, similar to this one, just before we, um and I was always wondering when would that come up? And every time I'd write in the comments, what would you like to see? Please talk about religion. Something that we have. It's It's a very new space, like for us to talk about the the blending of both. And, um, I guess for me, [01:00:00] um, it's actually what I noticed during. So it's actually quite scary for me as someone who grew up, um, Presbyterian background enforced by my parents and as a child like, I really liked that space because, you know, that's where I grew up and I was like a friend, you know, you're learning. You've got good stories, colour and the pictures. You know, it's fun, you know? I love it, you know? And then you get to a point where you're like, Oh, hang on. You know, something is like, it's where do I fit in now? Like if you like. And I had this complex [01:00:30] where I was trying to do it because my parents, you know, enforced it and not enforced it, because I enjoyed it. But then I got to a point where I was like, Oh, hang on, Who am I? And then, um, I spent, like, a lot of my years trying to do everything else right, because I knew at the end I would probably disappoint him. But I hope I do enough. And then, you know, I went through the whole try to pray for it to go away. Like I went through all of that stage and it was hard working up Every I'm waking up every morning [01:01:00] and it's still here, you know? So, um and it's hard because, um, we know it's all right. Take your time, OK? No, it's hard when you get to a point like you try. You try really hard to find that space, That space. And then when I came out to [01:01:30] my parents, they reinforced my fears. Like, look back at me like, you know, you should come to church. You know, you haven't been coming a lot. And, um, you should have, you know, you got to pray about it. My dad tried to tell me, um, don't tell anyone. It's a phase, you know? And that's when I was 23. Like, you know, I'm I'm a grown man, you know, But, um, and then when I came into this space, I like Peter and are, like, really good friends of mine and Britney from last year with me. And, you [01:02:00] know, we get along really well, but it's still a scary space for even me to discuss with my really close friends. Because that fear of disappointment, um, like I said, um, I'm very open with, um, give up, give up my notes. You're a queen. Remember that. Yeah, I'm very I'm very open with, like, um, respecting everyone's beliefs. Like I said yesterday like, there's no one way [01:02:30] to do your journey, but It's very hard for me to find that space. Where is it OK for me to talk about that I. I might not necessarily be in that space anymore, but it's like a kind of a scoop of like that will get rejected from us space again. Um, so I just want to say, um, thank you. [01:03:00] Um, I hope we get to talk about more about these things in the future. Uh, I guess this is for the whole panel, and I was just wondering if you guys had any advice for people who asked, um, have family members or feel close to them that strictly follow a religion and how to deal with, um, I guess, uh, when those people, uh, get upset about you [01:03:30] being who you are. Um uh, would you say it would be, uh, better to try to work through things with a person or to, like, go your own way to kind of distance yourself from the person? Um Well, um, the whole of my death, um side of the family is like heavily a Christian. And my uncle is even like a Baptist minister. So for that, I don't really want to be in that environment where [01:04:00] they're, like, putting me down and stuff. So for me, I would kind of distance myself. Yeah, for me, I, I I think like my family is really, like, comfortable, like with me And like, they're really accepting now. Um, but it's taken a really long time. Um and yeah, like for me? Like if something comes up, which I feel, which is transphobic, I'm just like that's not Christian like and, you know, and I like to lead by my [01:04:30] examples and you know, clearly if they feel like, like, for me, I say I'm a Christian, But, you know, both sides of my family are strong moments. Um, and if I feel like, you know, there's they're they're targeting me because they're uncomfortable and stuff. I have to say that's not Christian like, you know, praise you. Praise Jesus. Give it all you know, things like that just to remind them that this is the path that you're going and you have Christ [01:05:00] in your life. This is yeah, like, you know, he gave his only begotten son, Jesus Christ, to come to this earth and die for us for our sins. Not for selected people. It's for everybody. So, um, I think, um, according to those who you can trust and the people that you, um who you know, you will You will be there for you. I mean, my dad was Yeah, he he was. It took him, like, years [01:05:30] for him to accept me for who I am, and now he's in a totally different space. But, um, my mom, on the other hand, was really, really supportive of me, And she would always vouch for me, you know, to family members when I wasn't there and they would complain about me bringing my partner or anything. So, um, whoever that support person is for, you cling on to them And, um, you know, if if you can name one person, um, around your networks, that will be there for you to support you, to speak on your behalf, Um, [01:06:00] and those times where you don't feel confident to speak for yourself. Um definitely cling on to people like that because they they will help you through your journey, just like my mom did for me. Yeah, I'm definitely all for like, although they're your family. And you know that I think it's a really hard situation to be in. Um, I also think, like, totally don't change for people, you know, whether that's in a friend group or a family group. You know, like, you know, you're here, you're you. And I think [01:06:30] totally embracing that and loving that, Um and I think it's all part of the journey Is figuring out where you want to sit And as cheesy as it sounds, totally listen to your heart. You know, um, do what you feel is right. Um and, yeah, it's OK to ask for advice and stuff, but, you know, it comes down to your decision, so definitely do what feels right for you and in the moment and yeah, I guess, Yeah, you be patient. I think [01:07:00] it I think often situations seems so hard at the moment, but, um, if you are patient, you will see that after time things change and people just need, um, sometimes shorter time and sometimes quite a long time to to get things. Yeah, and it's a very emotional thing, and especially with faith, it's very emotional, and you can't put it down to just rational arguments, you know, and [01:07:30] people argue with with things they take out of the Bible, but behind it are very emotional messages. And I think what faith teaches is just loving someone else. Like you love yourself. And that's one of the most important lessons for me. And, um, if you just address address this, um, this emotion with your with your family, I think that's a way to go. Yeah, but be patient. Yeah, it's [01:08:00] it's not solved like this, you know? Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. Um I guess I'm kind of similar, um, to me and that I have, like, quite a long history with grievances with the church. Um and I suppose my question for you guys that have been through that and had that kind of feeling like you're forced out of the church for being who you are. How did you then overcome that and overcome that pain and that hurt with the church? [01:08:30] And you take that step into going back in and like going back into a place that has not been safe for you in the past. I think what we intend to do is we generalise the whole church. But for me, it comes down to like poor leadership. Because if the pastor, you know, the pastor is not on board with who we are, Um, clearly, the congregation is just gonna support the pastor because the pastor, bishop or, you know, he knows best. But for me, it's like [01:09:00] that's just poor leadership. And, you know, if there's uncomfort of you being in that church, um, for whatever reason, I would just say go to another church because you'll see, like, you know, I know so many friends, like within the Pacifica space that, like, even like some of my family, um, you know, extended family, they're like a part of the church. And then everyone leaves. And they all start building their own churches because they're all having arguments with one another. [01:09:30] Like, you know, it comes down to that poor leadership like, No, because I think this is the right way. And then someone's like, No, I think this is the right way. And like when you think about it, I think that's how churches are built because they all feel like this is the right teachings of the gospel. Um, yeah, So I would just, um, recommend that you just go to try our try all different as well, Like I've had the opportunity to, you know, like for me, [01:10:00] it's like a church church. And if they're not comfortable with me, that's fine, because that's their problem. Yeah, because at the end of the day, you know, you go, you go to a place or you attend sessions like this for your own reasoning. I think I'm a lot like on that. Um, when I went through that whole transition of finding out that I wasn't accepted at school, church and at home, um, it was a process for me. And, you know, it's totally different for everyone at at their own stages in their own path. But [01:10:30] it was a realisation for me that everyone in these different environments and their disapproval of me and my identity was a reflection more so of them than of myself. Um, and that once I realised that I began to, I had this huge 3. 60 where I started to view myself differently. Um, and I started to love who I was. I started to love my body. Um, my mannerisms, Um, the different things about me that I started to accept about myself, [01:11:00] and then in turn, I found others who felt the same. So, um, I kind of come from that place where, like how you feel on the inside, you attract to yourself. You attract what you feel basically so and you'll probably see, like, a lot of people that I really feel sorry for you guys. And it's like, I don't feel sorry for me Feel sorry for yourself, then. You know, your mentality is, but [01:11:30] also like, I think I'm all about the journey, you know, like I think just embracing that journey. You you don't need to rush back into anything either, because it is almost like a grieving process, you know, like there is that loss to some sort of connection if you've lost that connection with someone with a congregation or whoever. And I think, um, accepting that as part of your journey is part of what you need to go through, I think, um, personally, [01:12:00] I haven't yet found a congregation that I'm you know, um, connecting with. And I think I'm OK with that. You know, like my values haven't changed and that sort of thing, and I think it's just being OK that. Actually, when I find the place, I'll know and I can be myself and that sort of thing. So I think it is all part of that learning and that processing of what's right for you and like, it's OK to be selfish. Like [01:12:30] this is for you. This is your values. This is, um, your congregation if it's the right one, you know? And I think, yeah, just embrace it and enjoy it and be selfish. Yeah. One thing for me was very important to start to start the healing process for myself. I don't You don't have to wait for someone else to start it for you. Don't wait until something [01:13:00] start it for yourself and say I want to see this as a challenge as hard as it is and get out stronger and and come out stronger and show a different way to to interact with other people. Yeah, and that's my goal. To show people another way, a different way and always think, Why is this person attacking me? And I always think where is this person coming from? And rather than [01:13:30] see myself as a victim, it's more like I'm sorry that this person had to go through this this pathway to to show their anger and fear by attacking me and yeah, but it's Yeah. For me, the healing process starts within. Yeah, um, so I think it's morning tea time, so I'd just [01:14:00] like to thank the panellists and Remy as well for sharing. Um, such personal experiences. Um, and coming here today. So if everyone could give them a round applause, Um, I'd also like to ad not adequate, that acknowledge that not all faiths were represented here today. Um, so hopefully next year there will be a more wide range of people. But I'll also be posting [01:14:30] up some relevant videos onto the shift page. Um, for people to have a look at, um And if anything has come up for you or you're feeling triggered, uh, we've got, uh, John over here today, or, uh, moon scattered around. Um um, so we just like to close with the kind of really good. OK, [01:15:00] um, [01:15:30] out of my.

IRN: 1063
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089741
TITLE: Takataapui workshop - Shift hui (2016)
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VOICES: Elizabeth Kerekere
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; 2010s; Alofa Aiono; Amazons Softball Club (Wellington); Aotearoa New Zealand; Black Women's movement; Elizabeth Kerekere; Gisborne; Lee Smith; Mokoia Island; Māori; Ngahuia Te Awekotuku; Ngāti Oneone; Peri Te Wao; Rainbow Youth; Rongowhakaata; Samoa; Shift hui; Shift hui (2015); Shift hui (2016); Tabby Besley; Tairawhiti; Takatāpui: part of the whanau (booklet); Tapatoru; Tapu te Ranga Marae; Te Aitanga a Mahaki; Te Reo Māori; Tīwhanawhana; Tūtānekai and Hinemoa; Waikato; Wellington; Whanau a Kai; Wiremu Maihi Te Rangikaheke; activism; aromantic; asexual; bisexual; butch; children; civil unions; colonialism; colonisation; culture; discrimination; diversity; feminism; femme; gay; gender; gender expression; gender identity; heterosexual; homosexual; inclusion; inclusive language; inclusive space; intersex; kapa haka; karakia; karanga; kaumatua; kaupapa; lesbian; mana; marae; music; pansexual; racism; relationships; religion; resource; sexual identity; softball; sport; stone butch; suicide prevention; takatāpui; tangata ira tane; tikanga; tokenism; transgender; tupuna takatāpui; volunteer; waiata; wairua; whakapapa; whakawahine; whakawhanaungatanga; whānau; women's liberation movement; women's rights; youth
DATE: 23 April 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Tapu te Ranga Marae, 46C Rhine Street, Island Bay, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Elizabeth Kerekere discusses the history of takataapui, building relationships and creating inclusive spaces.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Ah, Elizabeth. I am from Gisborne. So I live 20 years in Wellington. But being back home now, uh, this is my partner A who is a New Zealand. And we've been together 24 years and yeah, after 17 years with her. So it's time for us to move home. [00:00:30] And I come into this space, Uh, as a young person, I was an activist from when I was about 14. 15 and our mates formed. We could see that some of the things that we needed to, uh, make our lives better. We formed a young black woman group, Maori Women's group, and that was part of the black women's and Maori women's movements [00:01:00] of the eighties. And so I was at that time when feminism, uh, lesbianism. All of these things in the women's rights movement were all had been coming to our country. And so these things were bubbling along. And so when I come to talk about the then, uh, I come from a place that said when we started off in the language we got from the English, the British, when we were colonised in the late 18 hundreds, the word [00:01:30] was homosexual and heterosexual were invented. And so there are still some of our elders that identified as homosexual because that was the languaging when they grew up. Uh, languaging of lesbian and gay only came in in the seventies around those kind of times. Uh, so then we start to identify transgender in the nineties, And so all of the words, when it talks about a sexual being under the radar so things that is a progression of language that that happens. Uh, what we know is that from the very first [00:02:00] time those that language has come in and since as the feelings the identities have not changed. They have been here for centuries. These are ancient identities that we all have the names and language for them. English is very, very recent. Some of you will have heard this story. This was found in the writings of From He was the first, basically our first Maori [00:02:30] scholar. The first book of that we had the first writings about gender and women, uh, were from him. And so in the story of and he tells of how and his best friend came around and then was quite intrigued. She was a and she was not allowed really to choose her own partner. She as as the eldest of her family, the daughter of the chief. Those things were political [00:03:00] political arrangements, and so through her role and through her power, then that she could create peace amongst neighbouring tribes but still like this guy, and so he was a musician. I don't know if any of you are musicians in the room. We have a lot of a lot of proverbs that say, Watch those musicians they will take They would grab your because they were always a trip in those particular they will take your woman away And he was He played the flute [00:03:30] and so they were not. Hine's father saw instantly that there was an attraction going on there, and so I don't know if any of you know at all, but in near the airport and beside that is there's a rock where she used to sit and think, and so they had. And in in the middle of the lake, it's the island and [00:04:00] to and have gone into that spice there. And A's father removed all the waka from the shore so that she could not get over to the island. But the connection that was between them was too strong. And so she would sit on the rock thinking And as the night fell, she could hear the flute playing across the water. And certainly the stories that say this was all prearranged, that they set that up. But she still had to cross the border. So she swam out at night, and she used the [00:04:30] sound of the flute to guide her back to the island. But when she got there And this is the greatest Maori love story we have, the streets are named after them. It is the great thing. So what they don't talk about in that exact same story is that when she got there, she disguised herself as a man to get the attention. And so, through her subterfuge, she finally, uh, was able to get close to to and in Maori culture, we don't even have a word for wedding. We don't [00:05:00] have a word, actually. For husband, wife, mother, daughter or, uh, father, son. And so the way that you announced you coupled him in that sense was that you got found and be together and so there's a lot of stories about counting the feet in the bed. It's a way of signifying your new relationship. I know in our culture nowadays, your parents finding you in bed with you and a partner. Not such a great story. It's not where you want them to go proudly out to announce [00:05:30] to the entire village that you're now a couple. That's how they did that in that sense. And so their father. It was done. But where we get the word as the story goes on to say that after they were living together, went to his father-in-law and said, I am dying. I am dying. Love of my my And the story, then, is that he arranged for and allowed Tiki to come and live with them. [00:06:00] And so we know from the very first Maori Dictionary, 18 32 translated as intimate companion of the same sex. What we also know from diaries of sailors, explorers whaler is that our sexuality was much, much more fluid then the colonists were were happy with, and so they clamped down on that quite severely. But for many, many years, for decades later, [00:06:30] our people continue to live and operate with a much a fluid identity. Well, you see, this is the thing back then was not an identity as such. It was more from what I can tell from the Maori more an endearment, a descriptor that someone who was of the same gender as them. But we know that people were able to be sexual or be attracted to other people of different genders. And [00:07:00] that was an accepted part of our culture. Of course, colonisation destroyed many things our land, our language, our economic base. But it also took that away from us. And so I always say that the historical trauma for and then how things happen in this country started at that point, Uh, many areas, I think where I come from around Gisborne and and I think other areas. We we were more isolated. Those relationships continued to happen. [00:07:30] Uh, but we kept it undercover. And so in my work, I talk about, uh sometimes people perceive something as discrimination by family. Don't want to talk about it. Don't want to hear it. I believe that was actually protection. When you're in the body of your family, then they could They could look after you. And they knew that all this that was happening out here, the homophobia biphobia transphobia that was happening. Uh, that will hurt the kids. And even today, I think our parents that Oh, you're gonna get hurt. Oh, I worry for you. [00:08:00] And instead of helping build us up to be stronger, a lot of them you just try and stop us doing that thing. And so part of I guess the group that we are is we look to ways that we can work with our to remind them of how our people used to be, because there's so many areas of our culture and our lives where that length that knowledge has been taken away from us. And it's up to us then [00:08:30] to bring that knowledge back. So partly it's I'm your daughter. I'm your child. You should just accept me anyway, regardless, and part of it is a reminder. This is who who we used to be. We've always been there. That's why I say all the identities, all of the feelings, all of the attractions have always been through our people. So I I was really enjoyed. Thank you to all the panellists that spoke this morning. I really enjoy listening to people talk about [00:09:00] how we how we live, who we are, how we express who we are and how we make, uh, our lives around what's important to us. So when I moved to Wellington, I was early twenties and I could see that there was a lot of racism in the Rainbow Communities. Uh, that there was a very specific ways you're allowed to be lesbian or gay. So some of our elders talked about you could have to be, but off them, So there was that thing that the the [00:09:30] people went through for a long time. I look now at those old days, and I see a lot of what we call the stone. Butchers actually live their lives as men. Well, before, um, surgery or hormones were available, and but we didn't have any language for that when by the time I got there and I was active and started off with lesbian and and got got more involved in things, and so I thought as a Maori, I had nowhere to kind of go to there weren't many of us, and I missed that connection. So [00:10:00] I set up so we could bring all the parts of ourselves together. Because so often we go home and we have this thing here. We're very contained. We don't talk about this. Don't bring your partner. Um oh, you don't have to say you were doing that much over there. Oh, don't talk about your politics in front of the upset. Your grandmother, What are they? Sometimes I'm not saying it happens here, but some of you will be familiar or it's not part of our culture. It's not part of our religion doesn't like this. And then in other spaces here and the rainbow kind of field, [00:10:30] it's culture doesn't matter. It's all about this identity, and so was a way to bring those things together. So we set it up that it was always open to all the parts of our community because we recognise we have non partners. We have, uh, the friends that we we'd like to hang out with and do things with. So we started off with a place of being able to speak Maori. If you spoke Maori, uh, starting to learn [00:11:00] and and we started just started working with other organisations to say Do you need help with this? Uh have you thought about that? Because wasn't used pretty much in most of the community. So because our group was as inclusive that we had many people from other organisations. We started through that relationship that initial contact Then we started building a relationship with the organisation. So when they're organising in the next week [00:11:30] say OK then you know, perhaps you should think about how you're gonna open that. What is the what are the values that you're gonna do? Uh and so we did that organisation by organisation until now 15 years later. Uh, pretty much nothing happens in the Wellington area without us involved in some way and it's again it's not. It's moving past that token thing when you're talking about inclusive spaces. It's not that you start a each time with Kilda because a that's still awesome [00:12:00] but by itself that is not going to bring people in. And so what we've tried to do is then work with organisations to say right, let's steal it right right back to who organises the space who has the power of decision making and are there any Maori people involved in that. Are there any other people of different cultures involved in that? Because if that doesn't happen way back here, it's not gonna happen. Uh, how are these things? What resources [00:12:30] do you use? Whose knowledge do you access? Because the fact is, there's not many Maori, depending on where you are in the country. Our percentages are are changed dramatically. So, Wellington, one of the lowest percentage of Maori, where I come from the highest, we're nearly about 50%. So again, your access to resource is different. And that's part of why I made the resource to kind of give a really a really broad definition of what [00:13:00] is, uh but then to help kind of start that conversation so we could start building relationships When I'm just thinking, when you had your conversations just now and you broke into workshops, were there people there that talked about inclusive spaces? Did any of that cover some some of those cultural things. I think what kind of things were coming out for you in those workshops? Put you on the spot. [00:13:30] So, uh, I noticed that, um, a lot of the discussion in terms of culture. Um, and religion was, uh there was some things that came up between when did one accept the other? That was a big one where, you know, for example, as, um as someone like the term that someone chooses on a which literally translates into, uh, like a woman. But when religion was introduced like, it became a weird grey area that people didn't really want to talk [00:14:00] about. And so, um, even to this day, that's still it's still hard for people to talk about, even amongst our group. But yeah, for me, Thank you. I'm just wondering in some of the other groups if or even just generally in the groups that you have some of the issues that you come up with or things you've struggled with or things that are awesome about being inclusive, having Maori in your groups, [00:14:30] that so how many people here kind of run groups and even had the discussion? Um, I did. We just talked about five square stuff, though. There was one group that was talking about racism coming from that know. And yeah, that's interesting. What What we try and do is create a space where people can feel welcome that anybody can be any identity and where there's issues [00:15:00] that they can come to the group for support in that particular way. So, for example, the intersex round table that was held this week, um, that money came to us and say, as an organisation, how can we support, um, with that? And that's what we do for the people in our group. They will just tell us if there's something coming up that they need support or knowledge around. So we powder the When I was when I came out and decided to claim [00:15:30] the lesbian word the I told all my family, I was that kind of kid. I was brought up to be very strong, very confident. I was the eldest of my family. My father was the eldest. I was brought up to be in charge of stuff, and and so as soon as I did, I told everyone except my father because my father was a crazy, violent megalomaniac, and I thought he was totally gonna kill me. Uh, but I went up to Gisborne. I hitchhiked from Dunedin to Gisborne to talk to my great grandmother, [00:16:00] who was born in 19 01. And I said to her I was lesbian. Of course. Never heard of the word. Oh, I've got a girlfriend's like And so I said, OK, we have sex and she's like, Ah, and she told me about her aunties who lived as female couples when she was young. They had to have been born in the late 18 seventies, the 18 eighties, of course. And she said, But you know, the big accept. Yeah, we accept all of that, however, that you must have Children. This is one of the number [00:16:30] one pressures that we get. Um, when you take out all these things that are kind of the same because we're Maori, that we share with other Maori, you take out all these things we share because of our sexuality and gender. There's a crux. There's a few things that are absolutely specifically that's number one. Where's your kids? And because it's all about Papa and I talk about and I say sometimes it is literal. Just because we are doesn't mean we're not gonna have Children, but actually we inherit another [00:17:00] which is our and so that we come from a tradition of people of gender and, um, sexual fluidity. And we need to claim that. So by claiming we say Yeah, I accept, regardless of whether I speak Maori or not, regardless of whether I go home to my or even feel comfortable or even like those people my Maori before onto the bar and so and the other thing. Then we talk about [00:17:30] Mana. We inherit a man when we're born, and it's the mana of our tribe and who we are. We also accrue man through our lifetime by our achievements and our deeds. And I believe it is that that gives us the stand to say, Actually, not only are we going to deal with the discrimination that happens in our world, uh, we have the right to deal with the discrimination that happens in our and inside of our culture. Uh, because is this a [00:18:00] All I want to do is remind them of how we used to be, and therefore they don't know it. But now that they do, they need to change all of that. A of that. Let's see, What else did I write? The so Yeah. So when I come back to my story, my great grandmother. And I said, What was the name? What did you call your aunties? And she said, There is no name. They were just part of the So this is about part of the [00:18:30] that we don't need names. Um, Moana Jackson. The most amazing leaders. He always tells the story. When he asked his mother, uh what what do we used to call people like us? And she and she says, Of course we had a name. It was grandchild. I like actually, all of the naming all of those things. None of that doesn't in the end doesn't matter your except because you're part of this. You're part of their tribe, part of their family, [00:19:00] part of their household. And that's why we try and remind us remind our this was produced through a suicide prevention. We know that one of the number one protective factors they call is support of, and this is about reminding. To remember. The core job of our family is to look after us. That is all there is. They will learn over time, the terms we like to use for ourselves. They will learn to meet and know the people we are attracted to and love [00:19:30] and all share our bodies with, uh they will learn to connect with the communities we connect with, but at the absolute guts of it is part of the And although this was written with in mind, I believe all those things apply to well, I would hope to everybody and I went into this is not an apologetic or first criteria. Number one would be beautiful. That was important [00:20:00] to me. This is my artwork. Uh oh, my God. I just said it. It's beautiful because it's my art work. Sorry. Sorry about that. OK, just a shout out to all the artists in the room just like move on from that little comment the But this is kind of a resource with some attitude. So actually, there's some really, really bad things that happen for particularly for our young people, because [00:20:30] more and more organisations, more and more groups that happen even though us of our generation before, uh, we knew when we were young. Most of us know our gender by the time we're three or four and most of us know our sexuality while we're teenagers, but my generation and before didn't come out till later. So with you being part of the generation coming out when you're young and taking all the crap that you're taking right now and so this was part of that to say, Actually, this is the unusual times. This is New times. This is how this is. And I just need to be reminded of what [00:21:00] their job is. And so finally, I'm talking to a thing. When I think about inclusivity, I think come back to those basic values that when we set things up that the people that we want included in the spaces we eventually create need to be involved at the beginning of the organising. Quite often, we can't find all those people. Uh, not they might not want to be on a group for [00:21:30] whatever reason. Amazing as you might all be. They got other things on. People are busy, people are in demand is then you're looking at who are the organisations and other individuals you build that relationship with so that then you build that trust that you can ring, You can ring me and say, What about this? And that's because I've known now for nearly 10 years. And so you build it up over time. And so if you're working alongside, say, as [00:22:00] whatever kind of group that you're in that you work with, say, a mainstream, for example, Maori Youth group, then you build that relationship. So there might be key activities, you say, right? Maybe twice a year. We do some joint joint projects, joint activities and you just over time develop a relationship so that they get to trust you as an organisation. Because all these who are over here, they might be, uh, keen on on on something, but they just this is just too far in a space. [00:22:30] Uh, so and they're over here with their or around the Maori organisations all their sports. Uh, over time, then they can say, actually, these are cool people. These are cool things that they're doing. And people will start to, um have that fluidity. I always recommend using as a word to refer to all Maori. This being gay, bisexual sexual trends, intersex [00:23:00] asexuals, a romantic, all the different identities that we have and many more that we will create. Uh but I think if you're you start from that base number one have us on the organising. It's not in your group. We, through an organisation, develop relationships all about relationships and talk some more about that tomorrow. Uh, and for me, keep things in here. It's about respecting the of [00:23:30] the person that who we are, our gender, our sexuality, I believe, uh, all the knowledge or the amazingness we bring in the world. Part of that is because we're conduits that we have created a past to our ancestors, whatever nation those ancestors have come from. And so when we trample, we discriminate against, we discriminate on the manner we trample on the man we trample on their way to a when we hassle anybody. So whether that's us amongst ourselves, whether that's how [00:24:00] whatever happens to us in the world and that is the number one sin sin Christian reference there, uh, but or breaking, breaking of. So if our is number one job to look after us, then the key thing is to protect the of the person. And so I hope with this with the work that we do, uh, then that we enhance the of you all. So I acknowledge all of your ancestors the fact I know that you [00:24:30] come here as individuals, but actually, you represent your you represent your groups and you represent your ancestors, and I'm here to all of them. So, uh, it's a com convolute. But, uh uh, It's been lovely to talk to you today. I'm gonna open up for any other questions, like [00:25:00] OK, why do you think about it? I'm going to bring up. And it'd be great if people can think of things. Maybe that make it really hard. One of the things that, uh, someone said to me just before is one of the issues that people think is that Yeah, you can't be. It means certain identities or a certain level of knowledge of being Maori. So [00:25:30] I just want to reiterate, uh, that that is not true. When we reclaimed, Smith first found that term and the writings of and they gave it to the community from day one. That term was given over for, um, police being gay, bisexual and transgender people. That was all the languaging we had at the time. So the fact that since then, some parts of our communities have claimed it, uh, for just gay men, because they say to [00:26:00] me, Therefore, it means gay in it. Absolutely. Just on a basic, you know, not that I even know much about that, but on that basis it's just absolutely not true. But when it's gifted to our communities to use, it was always and we know our have always and leadership in our, um in our communities. So I just wanted to reinforce that anything else, people in their groups. I I was wondering if [00:26:30] you had any more tips or ideas on how to make our group more, um, friendly in a way. And what would make them want to come and be involved? I think so. Some practical things around, uh, a will you advertise? Do you actually get your and your notices out to places where other Maori are? So do you Do you have a relationship [00:27:00] or you have contact with all the local Maori youth groups? Uh, do you to the, um uh, people who work with with Maori, uh, so that they they can all help, uh, direct people to you. So there's that the other thing. So, for example, a lot of our, uh who might identify as as lesbian and bisexual women, uh, play sport. [00:27:30] That's the thing. You'll find them on the softball field. So So then it's, uh, do you have a relationship with any of actual, predominantly Maori sports groups? So it's that thing of actually getting thinking a bit more laterally, firstly, about how you let people know what you're doing, because then it's like, OK, maybe if you had a relationship with a sports group, then you could organise sports events. So some of it's real fun, and some of it's real competitive. That in itself would, [00:28:00] uh, So when we were running Amazon software, for example, for a long time, uh, it was predominantly, then we and it was a social team. We made a competitive team. Hello, all. The Maori turned up all the Maori and the Pacific Islanders because that weren't going to play unless it was competitive in our heart. And so those kinds of real practical things doing things they might be interested in, and then the things you already do that they probably would be if they knew about it. Uh, the there's some real things around [00:28:30] pronunciation, uh, so being able to say people's names correctly and place names opening with. I always suggest people open with I think it's not necessarily a prayer. I'm not talking about a prayer. I'm talking about something that brings everybody into the space and clears it and opens it for your discussions or what are you going to do? So those kind of so when a Maori person does come along and someone who's then they think, Oh, so it's not something you do There's a Maori [00:29:00] in the room, so it's just a normal part of how you operate because people feel that they feel, Oh, this is a normal thing. You do, uh, like using inclusive language when you even if you've never had someone intersex in your group. If you always say intersex by the time when when someone does come, they go, Oh, I am included here. I'm specifically, um, I specifically named This is for me. Yeah, I think I look at the and of course [00:29:30] it's It's those Maori who do get involved. Where did they come from? Who are their networks? Um, and networks. Then who do people know? And that's what we I said. We're a tiny group with no funding. Uh, but we create relationships, and so we need this person here and they got all their mates, and then they'll send people to us. So I really want to invite anybody who's in Wellington to come and at least come and check out. Come and come and be good if you can sing, but it is not compulsory. Uh, it's also good if you got a little bit of rhythm, [00:30:00] but also we work with that. Uh hm. Yeah, I think it's a mixture of those things because there's a number of groups that I don't join that it's just like, cool. I like what you do, for example, anything to do with fitness and walking. It's not my thing, but, uh, if they need to talk about something, then I'm happy to talk. Yeah, and I think that that applies to lots of people. If you're doing their thing, they'll come in for that thing. Yeah, [00:30:30] thank you to say I really love the, uh, Maori way of doing things because, well, I guess I guess like, people don't change, But societies change. And when we look at the Maori Society, um, 18 hundreds [00:31:00] before Cayman Mass, Um, I think that's that. Society is much more natural in a way of how people are. And so I like to think that, um should be embracing this as well to recognise that [00:31:30] our identities are really, really th th case in all the history and that we all have where we come from. So I want to know how I can use it properly and responsibly is someone who is talking to, [00:32:00] I suppose, for some for people in Wellington. Then I guess there is something we tried is that we modelled that so joining and and then kind of learning some of those and I think again, connecting in with whether it's going to ST to Maori classes work on getting some basic good pronunciation, uh, but starting to understand some of those values. So even here at the the fact that introduces them and uses words like [00:32:30] that, you know that that's topics of discussion. Uh, and so when we talk about values that we're using, uh, Maori concepts, so starting to learn those things either and local groups things that you can read, there's lots of things on the Internet to give you that real basic. Um introduction, I think because I will always advocate if you're gonna talk about connectedness and and people relating, then you might as well use it for knowing [00:33:00] that is a term and a concept rooted here. Uh, if you're going to talk about history and because, uh is about genealogy going back in time and into the future. But it also means a wider collective relationship sideways, because when you're talking, you're not. You're talking connectedness, but that and we have certain obligations to each other and therefore accountabilities. And so I think if those terms actually [00:33:30] dive with what you're talking about, then I'd say Use the terms, become familiar with those so that you gradually build on those things because not is one group in the whole country. So it's that's not always an option. But I think starting to learn those basic concepts and feeling it's what you do anyway. It's how you think anyone use, use those terms for it, and it starts connecting them with this of this land of this of this area. And, [00:34:00] you know, I see a future where everyone in this country speaks Maori. The early settlers that came to this country all learned Maori. But once the colon colonisation process started, they're like, Oh, no, we don't do that. So they stopped and then it was like we all had to speak English. Uh, so it's a different way of thinking of connecting in. OK, two questions. Um, if you like music, what's your favourite song? And [00:34:30] the second one is, um, you were talking about roles and and in terms of how, um How there's been can you play a role in in a sitting or a pre pre pre colonisation or what was the role? First? Firstly, music. Who doesn't like me? I have got, um I have to say is is [00:35:00] a music freak. So she knows a lot about music and organises it. So I have what I call my favourites and I have my all time favourite. Um, if I had to pick one, would it be Sunday? We'll all be together, Uh, at our, um at our civil union, we did an acknowledgement of all of those people of diverse sexes, genders and sexualities who could not live the life they wanted to live. [00:35:30] And so a tutor at the time, that fair. So Sunday will be together. Fine. Yeah. So I'm not gonna make you sing it right now, but it's a very old song. It's it's, uh, Diana Ross and the Supremes. Humour? Yeah. And so, Yeah, I think that would be if I had to put something more recent. [00:36:00] Then it would have to be Don't you pussy cat girls. Don't you wish your girlfriend was hot like me if your friend was a freak, like, please, just don't you? That's a confidence thing. I got going on the second thing really important. Uh, there's the thing I've noticed. And as I've gotten older that I see [00:36:30] that when you grow up and you're connected with your and that regardless of your other identities, they understand you and they know you because you're theirs. When you live, as most Maori do, 90% of us live outside of our tribal areas. You come back and they're like, What's what. This lesbian thing? Yeah, and they don't get it. It's a it becomes a concept. And so there's something in there about, and I think it's connected to that protection. That's like while you're here and we get [00:37:00] who you are. But when you're out there and you come back with this craziness, we don't get it and we don't really want to engage with it. And so when it comes to roles, because certainly when was formed, we talked a lot about and Maori culture highly gendered women do this. The men do this, you stand in these roles and you do this. So several of us come from kaha backgrounds. And we decided that if a was written in a particular [00:37:30] way, if a haka was written to be performed by men or women, that the people who identified uh in that, uh, in that way performed those, however, it was then incumbent on us because we're not about to say, Oh, we must change all of Maori culture to do that. We say, actually, then step up. So we had to write our own. We wrote our own, we wrote our own songs. Then when we perform all those, then we can shake up the rows. We can do whatever we like all of the, [00:38:00] um well, all of our group. Uh, but when we do poi, for example, all of our men, our identified members all do poi And so then we break down those things talking about, uh, because we've had to deal with situations, say, uh, our a fem gay men wanted to do We were like, No, you can't uh, however our trans women no problem at all, because the the [00:38:30] thing about and I take that really, really seriously, it's about our connection to the land and to the gods, Um, because of our, um, female essence. And so if you live your life and acknowledge that female essence, then you have the right to do that role. And so and that's fine in our communities. This is a safe space where we can learn and we can teach those things. Uh, when you go home and I have totally seen this and been had people [00:39:00] asking me about this having a trans woman bowling up who hasn't grown up at home, doesn't know many people and say they want to do the massive fights like you did what? Um, that is not good. That is not a solid. That is not a supportive or even good way to operate that you have to if you want to take particular roles. I have been home now for six years. I'm 50. I still am totally the backup girl [00:39:30] everywhere and the rest of my life. I do at nearly every who I go to. But as long as I've got older cousins, as long as I've got aunties that do that, I'm at the battle. And so there's that thing as well. You need to be home. You need to be asked to do certain things, and you need to have done some of that practise and learning yourself. So when you do get asked, then you can step into that role. I don't know if some of you know he is, uh, also on our board board [00:40:00] of Who's a Trans man and his partner, Karen, his wife, Uh, and they run, which is the trans trans organisation. They have a newsletter that goes out around the world. I think about 6 7000, um, subscribers. And it's all things that are happening throughout all of our communities. But the focus on trans people and and of course inside [00:40:30] that includes our non-binary and gender diverse people. So he went back to his and they and had that negotiation over time because he grew up there and from and and and and so that conversation started, they saw that he was transitioning. And then by the time uh, [00:41:00] they over time, then they got to see and understand they could feel a way to and then got to the point where they said if he was ready to speak that he could sit on the pipe and that took time. It didn't start off well, and it's hm, it's a real decision. If we if we're going to step up to those roles or want to be available for those roles, we need to know what we're doing. Uh, because we really we're representing. And I say we have this throughout the country that have had [00:41:30] for decades because they know the essence. They recognise that of them. And then there can be no question whatever terms they call themselves or whatever other people might have to say about it, the and then respect that. We're very, very clear that that is not how it operates everywhere their crap goes on. And so part of doing this research and working, um, with is just to start working on that, dealing with things [00:42:00] and not going well where our kids are getting hurt, where they're getting kicked out of home and have no connection with the Because their cannot cope with their diversity, it is not acceptable. And I guess all of our work is about addressing that, reminding our what the basic job is and who we are. Where we come from. The Children is there. Anybody here would like to comment about how it is for them, or [00:42:30] I know some people hear the term and that is me. And others go. Oh, not sure. Is there anyone that would like to comment on that? Good bye. Otherwise we should break up. Last thing. OK, this this resource was the first one I am doing a PhD. I finish in June on the emergence of identity finishes in June. Yeah, yeah, yeah, [00:43:00] I was asked to do it and I said, Yeah, sure, I had no idea. It's a lot of writing. It's a lot of reading to produce 100,000 words. Well, yeah, but there's no research next to nothing on. So we did. We did that. And as lovingly as I may craft those 100,000 words I know you are not all gonna read it. So that was the first one we're doing One now, youth, where we're interviewing youth, their parents and their grandparents. We are looking for volunteers. We will come to you. We will go to where your live, wherever [00:43:30] that is in the country. So we, um So, Morgan, if we interviewed her. And so we interviewed Morgan and their mom the first day. And then we interviewed Morgan's auntie cousin, who is the eldest and also and the nan all together. It was incredible. We are looking for more volunteers to do that because we want to put something together that gives absolute direct advice so parents can speak to parents, can speak to each [00:44:00] other and just say, how do we create a support of? So I am looking for volunteers. Please come and see me. So no, no. Finish here. Yeah. No. Sorry. Is that, um, only to do a Maori descendant for this particular one. Yeah. What late? I encourage you to do one into your culture. [00:44:30] Thank you for having me. Not later. Just wanna thank you so much for sharing, um, sharing that. I think it's so so important that we continue to tell these stories and history and acknowledge the land that we're in and where we have come from, Um, and to spread, I guess. Yeah, spreading that story of and what that means And that that is a term that, um, [00:45:00] many people at this at that will meet in our groups and stuff that they can claim and that, you know, that belongs to you. And that's your your history. Um, and as as well, I think just talking about how we can make our groups and spaces all more inclusive of it's just so, so, so important. And I really, really appreciate you, um, yeah, for me to share that with us today. Thank you. And I realised I didn't do my way. So I'm gonna do one quick one, which I'm gonna help you get you to sing with me. So, I, I like to do this [00:45:30] overseas. But even though you don't speak Maori so there are sections where it repeats And, uh so I get you see, I will go like this. Then I'll get there little section and see how we do it, OK? It is my favourite. Anyone who knows us joining we here What is of [00:46:00] the nation and cross the wide wide creation We won't kneel down We won't kneel down up on the ground Oh, how I love to hear them say My God, [00:46:30] no! Uh and.

IRN: 1062
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/shift_hui_2016_tabby_besley.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004446
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089740
TITLE: Tabby Besley - Shift hui (2016)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Tabby Besley
INTERVIEWER: Rowan Moulder
TAGS: 2010s; InsideOUT Kōaro; Rowan Moulder; Shift hui; Shift hui (2015); Shift hui (2016); Tabby Besley; counselling; funding; heteronormativity; hui; mental health; safe space; support; tuakana
DATE: 23 April 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Tapu te Ranga Marae, 46C Rhine Street, Island Bay, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Tabby Besley, national co-ordinator for InsideOUT talks about being part of the team organising the hui.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So we thought we didn't want to have to come up with a new name each year for the because that gets its quite a lot of work and endless naming brainstorms. Um, so we did a big endless naming brainstorm. And, um, we came up with the word shift, and we really liked it because we thought it talks about how we want to kind of shift dominant cultures and kind of, um, push resistance back against the ideas of kind of heteronormative. And, um, I guess what society often tells us is is the normal in and and challenge that. And, um, start [00:00:30] to give young people the tools to go and, um, create better support and change in their own communities that, um, celebrates their kinds of diversity. So what's been the most challenging thing about putting this together for you? It's quite challenging doing it with very little, um, funding. Um, and as an organisation, Currently, we've only got, um, one part time staff member. So just trying to coordinate something of this size, um, and the scale [00:01:00] with a really limited budget that gets and that we only got get that funding approved right beforehand, um can be really hard. Um, and I Yeah, I don't know any other organisation that does something to the the scale with that. That little resourcing. So, yeah, that's always a really big, um, challenge. And I think just, um yeah, making sure we have all the right, um, support staff in place. And And, Yeah. So what's been your favourite part of the weekend [00:01:30] So far? Or possibly what's the thing you're really looking forward to? Um, highlight for me has been one has been watching lots of our volunteers. Some of them have been young people who might have come to several years ago, and they now stepped up into a volunteer role with us, Um, and kind of picking in and seeing them facilitating workshops and being really strong in their roles because, um keeps giving me really big smiles. I'm just so proud of them. Um, so that's been yeah, really beautiful at this. Um, and of course, to seeing all [00:02:00] of the amazing young people that have come from all different, um, parts of, um, the country and from different backgrounds, different identities and them all coming together. And, um yeah, finding common ground ground learning from each other, challenging each other, um, celebrating each other, having fun. Um, and the a the awesome questions and just yeah, all the beautiful people around has been amazing. All right, so, um, what's one thing you're looking forward [00:02:30] to that maybe hasn't happened yet. We're looking forward to, um I'm looking forward to the talent show. That's always, um, really awesome. Opportunity to see, um, some stars shine. Um, yeah, it's always pretty entertaining. Um, so one young person today writing a poem already and some others practising singing for it. So I think it's gonna be a really good one this year. It's gonna be exciting. Um, and tomorrow I think there'll be lots more awesome, um, workshops and conversations to happen. [00:03:00] And I'm really excited as well to see where people are at by the end of the hood and witness kind of the change that, um will have happened and lots of them from coming along. Um, for lots of them, it will be the first time they might have come to something like this and feeling quite anxious and then often by the end of it, they've become a lot more comfortable made lots of new friends learn new things about themselves and about the build. And, um, yeah, it's always really cool to see that. And then I'm also looking forward to, um, hopefully staying in touch with lots of those people when they go back to their communities and seeing how inside app can continue to support [00:03:30] them. Cool. Um, I wanted to ask you also about how what inside out has done to make this place really safe for the people who are. Maybe this is their first time being out there all quite young. What is important to you, First of all, about making it a safe space. And then what has inside out done to facilitate that? It's hugely important to make a safe space Where, um, young people here, Especially when, um, people in our community are so often overrepresented [00:04:00] in in I guess, um, mental health statistics and, um, a huge majority of us are facing mental health challenges on an ongoing basis. And when you come to something like this, um, especially those who maybe don't know anybody here or, um have never been in an environment like this or been, um, on our own anything like that. It can be, um really? Yeah, I guess. Intimidating. And, yeah, people are really nervous. Um, so it's really important for us to make sure everyone feels safe and comfortable here, and, um, there's lots of ways [00:04:30] we do that, um one way is through having a really cool support system at the so each young person gets put into a group where you have, um, to to That's like your eldest sibling at the slash. Like, youth group leader and mentor. Um, they're there to look out for you throughout the, um, and check in with you, um, and your group several times a day to make sure things are going good. And if you have any issues, there's someone you can talk to. Um, those groups also have, um what? This year we called an asteroid. So a rock floating on the outskirts [00:05:00] to support, um, the so the youth leaders of that group and be an next year back up for the support. And we also have, um, a wonderful team of counsellors, um, and social workers, um, So people who are professionals or studying those in those fields and, um, they're on site at the, um as well for any extra issues. Um, that come up or if anyone just wants, um, yeah, an extra level of support. Someone to talk to. Um, yeah. So that's kind of one of the main things that we have in place for safety and support. Fantastic. All right. I think we'll [00:05:30] start wrapping it up because you're clearly in very high demand here today. Um, So was there anything else you'd like to add just quickly before we end? Come along. Next time we we hope to, um just yeah, make this opportunity available to more and more people, ideally, will be able to start running it in multiple regions so that more people do have the opportunity to access it. Um, and easier without any kind of travel barriers. Um, And if you are thinking about coming and haven't been before, um, [00:06:00] yeah, don't worry. If you've got any questions, it's always OK to ask them, and there will be lots of lots of support for you here.

IRN: 1061
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/shift_hui_2016_arriving.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004443
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089737
TITLE: Arriving - Shift hui (2016)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Rowan Moulder
INTERVIEWER: Rowan Moulder
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; InsideOUT Kōaro; Rowan Moulder; Shift hui (2016); Tapu te Ranga Marae; Wellington; asexual; bisexual; flags; hui; non-binary; transgender
DATE: 23 April 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Tapu te Ranga Marae, 46C Rhine Street, Island Bay, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Rowan Moulder describes arriving at Tapu te Ranga Marae for Shift hui 2016.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Rowan Mulder. I've just arrived here for the 2016 shift on. It's hosted by Inside Out Fantastic organisation. It's a beautiful, bright, sunny day. I can see all of the flags, um, various colours. We've got rainbow flag, bisexual flag, trans flag. So it's pink, white and blue. It's quite windy here today. [00:00:30] The dust is being swirled up around me, and I'm hoping that everyone can hear me clearly. Lovely view. From here. You can just see the blue blue skies and all the long white clouds. The marae is quite tall. It's 23 story marae from the look of it. And as I say, I can see all the wonderful flags flapping in the breeze. Oh, they're 12345677. [00:01:00] Flags got the asexuals flag here. Lesbian flag, non binary. They're all here. You can see the fountain in the corner there. It's really quite beautiful. Um, I'm standing here next to a cow. I think it is. It's sort of made out of tin, and it's painted bright colours, and there's a wagon with some pine branches in it. I'm also next to a washing line got the old tea towels. It looks [00:01:30] like it's going to be a fantastic day. I'm just about to head in for the beyond the rainbow panel on being a minority within the rainbow community, so that should be really exciting. We'll get to hear from all kinds of panellists there on their identities and experiences, so we are looking forward to that.

IRN: 1067
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/shift_hui_2016_participants_part_one.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004445
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089739
TITLE: Participants (part 1) - Shift hui (2016)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Mani Bruce Mitchell; Taupuruariki Brightwell
INTERVIEWER: Rowan Moulder
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Hamilton; InsideOUT Kōaro; Kapiti Coast District; Love Your Condom (LYC); Mani Bruce Mitchell; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Pacific; Paraparaumu; Patchwork hui (2013); Rainbow Youth; Rowan Moulder; Shift hui; Shift hui (2016); Tabby Besley; Tapu te Ranga Marae; Taupuruariki Brightwell; Tommy Hamilton; Wellington; Whanganui; Zumba (fitness); anxiety; being yourself; coming out; competition; confidence; crafts; dress up; drugs; education; equality; faith; food; friends; gay; gender identity; gender neutral; hui; identity; intersex; marae; music; non-binary; people of colour; pronouns; queer; queer straight alliance (QSA); racism; respect; safety; school; shade; stereotypes; support; talent show; therapist; trans; transgender; tuakana; workshop; yoga; youth
DATE: 23 April 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Tapu te Ranga Marae, 46C Rhine Street, Island Bay, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Rowan Moulder talks to participants at Shift hui 2016. More participant interviews can be heard in part two.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So what brings you here to the shift Hu today? Um well, I just wanted to make friends and hang out. Really? So, yeah, that. Yeah. What's been your favourite part so far? Um, just hanging out with friends. Really? And just learning new things and stuff. It's really cool. Yeah. Have you been to any of the workshops? I've been to a few. Um, I'm actually pretty bad. I keep forgetting the on, so oops. Um, but yeah, I've been to a few. They're quite cool. [00:00:30] Hi. I'm looking forward to the talent show. Yeah. Yeah, because me and my friends are gonna perform a Hamilton song. Yeah, I can hear them rehearsing now. Yeah, it's awesome. And I'm excited. Yeah. So what? Um, planetary group are you from? I'm Yeah. And, um, Yeah. How have you found being part of Venus as a group? Um, yeah, it's a cool group. I'm awful [00:01:00] with astronomy, but that's OK, but yeah, Venus, the people in the group all cool. So that's good. Yeah. Um, have you made any new friends? You just been sticking with your I've definitely made quite a few new friends. Yeah, quite a few. And how far did you come from for the who? Oh, how long is it? It's a long it's from So that's, like a lot long drive. And [00:01:30] the traffic was very awful. So yay. And just to wrap it up there, Noah, um, what do you think is the most important thing about having a like this respect, I guess. You know, it'd be nice to everyone and have fun, I guess. Yeah, that's great. Thank you so much. Awesome. Well, I came here to sort of have fun and get to know other people in the rainbow community and make some new friends. Excellent. So, what have you enjoyed most [00:02:00] about this weekend so far? I've enjoyed that while I'm here, I can be myself and not worry about people judging me. Yeah, me too, Actually. Yeah. Is there anything in particular You're looking forward to, uh, doing it again next year? Yeah. Yeah. And how far have you come for the today? Uh, I'm from Wellington. Oh, OK, so not as far as some, but still a decent drive. [00:02:30] Alright. Now, um, is there any of the workshops that you particularly liked or been involved with? Um I haven't been involved with that many. But I'm really looking forward to dress ups and I can't wait to do the talent show. Yeah, I hear a lot of people are really looking forward to the talent show. Yeah. So, um, how do you feel about your relationship with the coordinators here at shift? Do you think they're doing a good job? I think they're doing a great job. And I'm just glad that something like this actually exists [00:03:00] so that we can all get together and we can all socialise. I think it's great. What do you think? You want people to take away about shift Hu? Listening to this interview I want people to I think people should realise that they're not alone and that it's OK to be them and that there are lots of people out there who support them, even though it may not feel like it. That's fantastic. Thank you so much, Mallory. You're welcome. Alright. Now, what brings you to Chef? Who are you today? Um [00:03:30] I don't know. I just had some friends who were like, there's the super cool thing. A lot of gay people, it's great. And I was like, sign me up. How far did you come for the, um I came from so it wasn't too far. It was just like an hour train, but yeah, What have you enjoyed about it? Most so far. Probably like meeting new people who, like I can, like, actually talk about this kind of thing with and [00:04:00] not have it be awkward or like, have them not know what I'm talking about, because that's kind of what it's like when I try to talk about it at school and everyone's just kind of like What? Yeah, yeah. Um, is there anything in particular you're looking forward to this weekend? Not really. Just kind of meeting more people and going to some of the workshops. I like how we have, like, our own, like, individual little groups, because that's really good for me, especially like with [00:04:30] my anxiety. I struggle in large groups and I think that it's good to be able to kind of do that, but then also, like, have the right to pass. And like, all that kind of thing, if you don't wanna necessarily do it, Yeah, um, is there anything that you would maybe like to change for next year or maybe having slightly smaller groups just so we can sort of get to know, like, our like, our group members and all that kind of thing a little bit better [00:05:00] to, like, just get, like, a better relationship with them and have it be like our, like, support network while we're here. I guess this is my first time. Like being here. So it's all pretty new to me at the moment, but yeah, I don't think there's anything being run on, like gender neutral things that might be nice to sort of focus on maybe a little bit more of the not as well known [00:05:30] identities. Right, Tessa? So what's been your experience of the so far? It's been pretty great, but definitely to get to sleep. Yeah, I've had a couple of people tell me they've had some sleepless nights. So what's been your favourite part so far? Oh, meeting meeting people. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, where did you come from today? So was that a good trip down? It was alright. It was a bit cramped. How are you finding the, uh, organisation [00:06:00] of the really good? I think they're doing quite well at keeping track of everyone. Yeah, and I really like the plane. Oh, no. I'm so sorry. What? What group were you in? Neptune. Yeah, Well, we have to find the Neptune coordinator and get you another one, won't we? Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much for that. I'll let you go now. So could you tell me a bit about your role here at shift today? Um, so [00:06:30] my current role at the share shift is that I am a A tour. So is, like a guardian and, um, someone to be there for the youth to attend the So my role is pretty much just to yeah, be a guide and be a positive role model And check up on people to make sure they're OK. Yeah, that's awesome. So I hear you guys are divided into planetary groups. Is that right? Yes. Um, guess what plane? That I am. Yes. I can see you've got a lovely [00:07:00] blue planet badge there. Yes, yes. Um, my planet is Uranus. And yes, um, it's a lot of laughs are behind the planet now, especially with the group. Um, yeah. So it makes you quite happy to be here. So when I first heard about it, I was like, Oh, yes, that would be so fun playing around with this name. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's essentially a plane that I'm in. No, that's cool. So you guys come up with, like, planet mascots and things, right? Yes. Um, [00:07:30] do I want to ask this question? Well, the planet mascot in age. Well, you know, this is entirely the group's idea, and I let them have full creative leader. Um, they wanted to draw a batch, OK? And so they drew a but a rainbow coming out of the batch and with an asteroid like on the but kind of like claiming his butt as Uranus. Um, and it was very colourful. It's like the rainbow flag as a batch. And, [00:08:00] um, it's got colourful stars and everything. It's kind of like, yeah, and we did a presentation on it in terms of like, you know, like, um, presenting a new idea to a bunch of people saying this is our design, and this is our belief behind our design. And we are stuck behind that, um, but a lot of the a lot of the, um a lot of the kids were quite nervous about it. So only like two got up to to present it. So I got up to support them for it. That's good. Um, but yeah. No, it definitely [00:08:30] stood out. I. I had so much fun doing it. Yeah, that's cool. So, um, back to the as a whole. Um, have you had any favourite workshops that you've attended so far? Um, I haven't attended many workshops, to be honest, because I guess, um, I like to kind of keep my mind clear and just relax and focus on my role. But so far I've been involved in 21 was just a panel about minorities [00:09:00] in the community. Um, and yeah, I'm pretty nervous about that. Yeah, but anyway, um, and another one was a workshop for, um, trance individuals, which went very, very well. Um, I'm just trying to think, but those are the only things I've been a part of so far. Um, I usually, um, spend my most of my time around the crafting table being an artist, so I just really enjoy sitting around other creative minds and, you know, supporting them in that way. I can, um but I But this Sunday, I am [00:09:30] planning to go to the, um you need the workshop? Um, it's called Vogue Vogue. Something I'm not quite sure. The the entire title of the thing, but apparently it's gonna be very glamorous, I'm sure. Yeah. Um, run by the south Auckland. So I I'm looking forward to attending that today. Yes. No, that sounds excellent. So, with the as a whole, what do you think is the most important part about it in terms of supporting young people? Um, from my personal experience, when I first [00:10:00] came out as Trans, um, this this event was it was called Patch Worker in that time. Um, but this was literally the first event. Um, I appeared in that exposed me to the entire rainbow community. Um, and it was such a positive and fantastic experience, which really changed my life and really kind of gave me the confidence and the strength to kind of like, face the outside world. Um, it's so I can so seeing that all the new faces that come here [00:10:30] and the people that attend the events, um, they'll be going through some of the experiences making new friends and learning so many, so much vital information, which they can take in for themselves and share it with the rest of the community. It's, um yeah, it's It's such a big deal, you know? And like not, you know, in the society we live in, you know, being quite difficult. You know, um, this is quite a unique event, and it doesn't happen so often, so you know, it's it's a very special when it happens. And, um, [00:11:00] I really love it. And I really love to see all the youth enjoying themselves and having fun. Cool. So just to wrap it up here, what do you think is your favourite part of the overall? Um, pretty much all of it. To be honest, Yeah. Um, I, I just I love the atmosphere. You know, um, I I love to. I love to see everyone learning. I like to see everyone just being themselves because I understand being transgender as well is is very difficult. [00:11:30] It could be very difficult in society to be who you are. So I I can say that. Yeah. My favourite part of the is that seeing everyone just really you know, you know letting go of all their restraints, really being who they want to be without the worry of judgement and other things we face in the real world. Yeah. All right, Um, before we close, is there anything you'd like to add or talk about for the listeners at home? Uh, well, um, if you ever you know, [00:12:00] I suggest come to the hood, apply for it. Especially if you're a youth. Um, even if you even if you don't, um, meet the age criteria. You could always volunteer and help out as a tour. Kind of or, you know, or volunteer to help run the event. Because, yeah, I suggest, you know, this is, like a very, um, great opportunity and such a fantastic event, and, you know, as the only way we can go forward here is to make it bigger and bigger. But in order to do that, we need more people to help out, So yeah. [00:12:30] So, yeah, what more do you hope to get out of this? So, um, I wanna make a lot more friends. Yeah, friends. And just meet people with interesting stories and learn more about how to, like, run a QS a kind of thing in our school and that kind of thing. Everyone here is really interesting. And it's really nice to meet everyone. What's been your favourite workshop so far? Um, technically, [00:13:00] I haven't been to any workshops. OK, but that sounds terrible. No, no. All good. Um, is it what you expected it to be? Kind of, I think I don't know what I was expecting This. This is great. Yeah. Where did you come from to get here today? I'm from Oh, OK, so was it a good journey? Um, yeah, it was fun. I. I came with my friends. That's good. That's good. And you guys are all in the same group together. Yeah, we are. We have a A at the Youth Services Trust. [00:13:30] That's cool. That's really cool. Um, my identity, Um, I think, um Well, yeah, I think my pronoun is probably unknown. Yeah, because I don't see myself as I don't see myself. Nor she or he Nor you know, anything. I just see myself as fabulously me. That's all right, then. So what brings you here to shift today? Um, I came to shift because I was forced down here. Honestly, I was forced down here. Um, just so that, um we could, [00:14:00] um Well, I could get more, um, more information on, um, you know, other aspects and stuff that are going around and things like that. But yeah, I'm not really used to the whole, um, gathering of the LGBT Q I community. I'm I'm a type of person where I keep to myself. Um, because I feel like that. Um, yeah, I can't I can't. I feel like I don't identify as LGBT QI. I [00:14:30] just simply identify as a spiritual animal that's here to help you. All right. So how far have you come today to get to the, um I came from Auckland, and I'm so tired, like I my Yeah, when people ask me questions, it's, like all over the place, But yeah, I'm just Yeah, I'm just I'm browsing, ready for the shade. So, in terms of shade, what do you think is more hurtful getting shared from your own community in terms [00:15:00] of the LGBT Q I community. Despite what you identify as or from the straight community? First of all, and LGBT Q, I is not my community. I don't identify as LGBT Q I because I am a different I am not part of or him her or trans woman. Or, you know, I'm simply just and there's just a spirit walking the earth. No, I totally understand your aspect and your point of view, but, um and you know what I'm talking about along the lines of [00:15:30] I shave. Well, I think, um, it's more powerful getting shaved from your own LGBT Q I community. Only because, um, I feel that, um, we should be one. It's, you know, it's just, um, got to do with It's just got to do with, like, a whole lot of, um I guess how holding yourself up or building your walls Because of what? Um, whatever they've been through. And I think that's where she comes from. I mean, not from, but, you know, I totally understand. [00:16:00] So how do you think that we as a community, So I'm gonna just identify as a community can, you know, work on ways to improve it from happening, because I see a lot of girls that think it's all about competition and honey. It's all about competition nowadays because I mean, that's why that's in their mind frame. It's all about competition. I think they're just sucked in the whole stereotypic. Um, you know, you gotta look this way or, you know, you gotta look that way. You know, this is, um, more women. This is, you know, you know things like that. And I don't believe in that. I don't stand for that. [00:16:30] You know, I don't stand for that type of bullshit. You know, I feel like if you're just happy and you love yourself, then that's all you need. Do you believe that we are all equal? Definitely. I definitely feel that we are all equal, and it's just Yeah, it's just it's just sad because, um, some of us build our walls higher than others, and it's kind of had to communicate, especially with our younger generation that's coming out. It's more how to communicate with, um, the younger generation, because the older generation feel that just because they have paved the way for the next generation that [00:17:00] that, um, they need to be acknowledged. So I'm here with your name, please. Excellent. OK, Britney. So what's been your role here at the, uh, I am called, Uh, I think, Yeah. Um which is, like just a, I don't know, like a guide sort of thing for, like, a group. And, um, just looking out for some of the young people that are here And, yeah, just making sure, like kitchen [00:17:30] preps done and everything's tidy and just hanging out and supporting the young people. I guess so we're nearing the end of the weekend so far. Has there been any highlights for you? Are the people definitely. I think the atmosphere there's almost like a journey through the atmosphere of the and I love it. Like, um, I think Friday is always really cool to look at when you're on your last. You know, on the last day, it's cool to look back at that. And, um, everyone's [00:18:00] so nervous and anxious and, um, whether they've come on their own or with a whole group of people, you've always got some sort of nerves or, um, something like that. And I think, um, then, as people slowly get to know each other and, um, the environment slowly starts to become, you know, you get to know the place and, um, going to the workshops and you just sort of start to open up a lot more. And so it's really cool that, um, like tonight being the last night, everyone's [00:18:30] really chill and hanging out together and there's so many people. And I think, whereas on Friday some people were like, Oh, I'll just sit on my own and not do anything I think tonight, like I've seen a lot of people just randomly walk up to people and be like, Hey, guys like I haven't had a chance to speak to you yet And there's just a lot more confidence in everyone And I think it's just been such a beautiful journey, you know? Yeah. Um, so in regards to the workshops, have you had any favourites so far? They're all pretty nifty. Like, Yeah, um, [00:19:00] being biassed, I'd have to say the today one that I did was pretty cool. I just enjoyed that. We were all able to share the knowledge rather than, um, leading it or anything. I was just able to have discussions with people and share that knowledge, which was really cool. Yeah, so I enjoyed that. So, what do you think is most important about having all the youth here for something like this? safety, I think, um, [00:19:30] reminding everyone that, um, this is a judgement free place. Um, you can be as out there as you want to be or not, or as confident as you want to be or not. And, um, you can show that emotion and your anxieties, and you can totally share that and embrace that, or you can do the opposite. And I think just knowing that you're not going to be judged and that there are people here to support you, you can be out [00:20:00] and proud and, um, that you're safe doing all of those things, I think, Yeah, that's so huge. Yeah, And just to wrap it up here, is there anything that you'd like to see? Um, different for next year? Or anything you'd like to add on, I think more crazy out there. Things like the zumba and the yoga. I really enjoyed those because it got people laughing as well as being able to go off to those serious things, feeling like we've still got that laughter to come back [00:20:30] to. Um, like, we had some quite deep conversations this morning in one of our like faith forums and and, uh, some of the, um, sexual health forums and the relationship forums and those sorts of things. So some of the things that can be quite heavy but totally need to be talked about. But then for us to all just go outside and enjoy the sunshine and dance like complete crazy people, it was just really cool. And we were all able to laugh at each other rather than doing it in a nasty way. You know, it was it was lovingly and we could just be absolutely insane. [00:21:00] It was amazing. Yeah. Yeah. It was really brilliant to watch you guys. Yeah. So definitely more of that. Yeah. Is there anything that you'd like to say for the listeners at home about the or in general? It's amazing, Like, you know, if you know, um, young people in New Zealand, um, who who are non hetero, non binary, or in some way diverse? Um, I think totally making them aware [00:21:30] that this is an amazing thing to get involved in, Um, whether it's, um, you know, supporting the inside our organisation or whether it's, um yeah, just in some way coming to it and enjoying the workshops and, um, the environment is the most amazing thing ever. Um, yeah. So just connecting people to what? Yeah, to what's here? Because it's such an amazing resource. [00:22:00] Um, yeah. So could you please tell me a little bit about your role here today at the So I'm one of two, therapists here so very much in the background. Supporting and I was also involved in the training on Friday. Oh, so what does that involve? So this is the group that are supporting the youth and the planet groups. And on Friday morning, we just went over the [00:22:30] the role and did some role plays, looking at situations that that might arise and reminding them of the importance of pacing themselves and looking after themselves as well. That's excellent. So what kind of support systems do we have in place for the and for the youth involved? So around the who are the people that are working directly with the youth? Um, Tabby's come up with all these terms, but we have [00:23:00] planets, um, front line and then around the planet's moons. And I believe there's asteroids and various other people who sort of come in and out over the weekend So my sense is that this is a very safe and lots of thought has gone into how to make make that happen. Yeah. So have you been involved in any of the workshops so far? Have you attended any? Um, yes, last night, Um, my colleague Tommy Hamilton [00:23:30] and I ran a a brief workshop looking at the issue of intersex. So we showed a a youth video that was filmed in America and and then had AAA short Q and A with the group, which was fantastic. And then we also talked about a project that Tommy and I are working on looking at improving service providers, working with our community, particularly around the issue of mental distress. And do you feel [00:24:00] that your audience was receptive to that workshop was great audience, you know, given that it was quite late at night and the questions were thoughtful and just shows me why I enjoy spending time with young people. It's interesting. I am an older person I identified as non-binary really before there was a language to be able to do that. And I find that young people get it and understand it much more than most people my own generation in age. [00:24:30] So what's been your favourite part of this weekend So far? I've been coming out here to this particular for a long time. I think it's, um, over 14 years ago, I came to the first here. And so some of the people, um, literally, I've watched grow up over the years, and it's lovely to see people who were very young, um, 14 years ago and leadership roles now. And that's what it's all about is [00:25:00] making sure that generation coming through is is supported and and the leadership roles are developed. Yeah. So is there anything that you would like to see shift, uh, change for next year's? Um, we've outgrown this space. There's too many of us here. Um, I think we've managed at a squeak, but, um, this is really not big enough to support the number of people that we've got [00:25:30] here and then workshop space. So, um, as sad as that might be, maybe we can hold a regional here. One that's I. I think around about 80 people. But for a gathering of this size, because I believe we've got more than 100 and 50 here I think we need to find a new venue somewhere. So it's both sad and exciting, You know, wonderful that we need to find the space because there's now so many young people who who want to come, who need to come. Yeah, and [00:26:00] what's so important about having young people and who is like this? It's the same as it was when I was a young person. When when you are different and you don't feel like you belong or are validated with your peers, you need to find a space where you can be supported where you can be yourself. There will be people here who are not even safe to be out at home. I mean, some people will be, but I know that there are some who are not, and there'll be some people at schools [00:26:30] where they're not even supported. And I know myself what it was like growing up, um, in a situation where it wasn't safe to be myself, and there's way too many wasted years. So if we can support people to be themselves and and ensure that there's a support network around that, um so that people can go on to lead Purposeful, Fantastic. Great lives like everyone should. So just to wrap it up, is there anything else that you would like to add for those [00:27:00] listening at home? Um, if people are interested in supporting this work, then go on to some of the youth websites. You know, I would suggest supporting queer youth in your local area so the first spot might be finding out, Um, what queer youth groups are in your local area and you'll be surprised because there's quite a few of them in New Zealand and all of them are struggling financially. So if people are are are moved by what they hear in this programme, that's what I'd encourage people to do.

IRN: 1060
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089738
TITLE: Beyond Rainbows panel discussion - Shift hui (2016)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Aya McCabre; Dani Pickering; Jaye Barclay; Remy Schwenke; Tabby Besley; Taupuruariki Brightwell
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Armageddon Expo; Auckland; Aya McCabre; Caitlyn Jenner; Christianity; Dani Pickering; Emilie Rākete; Gisborne; InsideOUT Kōaro; Japan; Jaye Barclay; Making Schools Safer for Trans and Gender Diverse Students (2016, resource); Māori; Ngāti Apa; Ngāti Porou; Ngāti Tūwharetoa; People Against Prisons Aotearoa (formerly known as No Pride In Prisons); Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD); Remy Schwenke; Richter City Roller Derby; Samoa; Shift hui; Shift hui (2015); Shift hui (2016); Tabby Besley; Tahiti; Taupuruariki Brightwell; Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington; Tokyo; Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); Tranzform (Wellington); Ukraine; UniQ Victoria (Wellington); United States of America; Women's Flat Track Derby Association; Women's Room; Zumba (fitness); academia; acceptance; accessibility; ace (asexual); agender; allies; aro (aromantic); aromantic; arts; asexual; autism; bisexual; bullying; church; clothing; culture; design; disability; drawing; dresses; dysphoria; ethnic identity; family; femininity; gaming; gardening; gay; gender diverse; gender identity; gender stratification; hypervisibility; identity; inclusion; internet; intersectionality; intersex; invisibility; kaupapa; makeup; marae; marginalisation; masculinity; media; mental health; mental illness; minority; non-binary; personal trainer; pets; prejudice; pronouns; queen; queer; queer straight alliance (QSA); racism; relationships; religion; role model; roller derby; school; sexual identity; sport; study; trans; transgender; transphobia; university; visual arts; volunteer
DATE: 23 April 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Tapu te Ranga Marae, 46C Rhine Street, Island Bay, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast panel members talk about the challenges of being a minority within rainbow communities. The discussion was facilitated by Tabby Besley and features Jaye Barclay, Aya McCabre, Dani Pickering, Taupuruariki Brightwell and Remy Schwenke.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So this is beyond Rainbow. So it's a panel discussion on what it's like to be a minority within the rainbow community. Um, um, just to note that we're using the term rainbow community, but we recognise that not everyone on the panel, um, or in the audience will necessarily identify with that term or being part of, um, one community. That's totally fine. Um, you're welcome to share any thoughts you have on that later. Um, we just we don't like using acronyms and stuff. We're just trying to give it a simple thing. Um, cool. [00:00:30] Um, so to start with, we'll just go through. And if you could all just introduce yourself a little bit, um, about you where you're from, what you like to do with your time interest. Anything you want to say about your yourself? Um, yeah. Hi. Um, everyone, um, my name is, um, a, um Call me a for shot. Um, I am from, uh and are my, [00:01:00] um I'm also of, um, Tahitian descent. Because my mother's from Tahiti, Um, and brought up in Gisborne. Yeah, I I came here to, um, study in, um, art and design, which I have now received my bachelors, and, um, I'm really working on getting that. Didn't go to the steering running. I don't want into that stuff and just get a sense to me, you know, here it is, right here, right now. Um [00:01:30] oh, yes. Um, this is one of my, um, latest works, so I, um, help illustrate, um, this, uh, this latest resource for, um, gender diversity in schools. So this is a new inside out resource on how to make schools safer for trains and gender diverse use. Um, we've printed his copies and have boxes in there. If anyone wants to take some home, um, they're also good for use spaces. And we're very, very lucky to have a, um kindly do all the beautiful, beautiful design and the photo. Um, the pictures [00:02:00] are all based on people from our community. Um, so we're really lucky to have them generously Let let themselves be drawn. So, um, what was that again? Sorry. Sorry. Um yeah. So I. I work part time and as a freelance artist. So, um, one of the things I worked on was the resource book tabby just introduced. Um, I also do roller derby. So I compete for the Wellington League. R the city. Um, [00:02:30] so, yeah, that is pretty fun. It can get quite very. Never get used to it, though. It's like going on the battlefield. You never know what's gonna happen on the track getting getting smashed. I'm a bit of a Yeah, a bit. A bit of a woman That's quite rough around the edges. Yeah, it's always I've always been like that. Um, but yeah. No, um, that's kind of pretty much what I do in a nutshell. So, yeah. And I've, um ever since I've come here to study, I've just been living here ever since and just living because I think, Yeah, I really love Wellington. [00:03:00] And I'll probably stay here a lot longer. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Ok, uh, my name is, uh, Jay Barclay, and I'm from Napa. It's really small. No-one knows where it is. Um, and I am of Maori descent, obviously. And, um, Japanese and Ukrainian descent, and I was born in Tokyo. [00:03:30] Um, I am a first year university student at Victoria, um, grown up in Wellington my entire life. Pretty much. And I'm doing a conjoint degree. Um, majoring in Marine bio, English lit and ecology and Biver. And I'm mining in Maori studies as well. Um, in my spare time, I like to sleep and draw, and yeah, that's kind of just me at the moment. All I do is study and, um, volunteer with inside out and kind of [00:04:00] do bits and pieces whenever I've got spare time, which is hardly ever so Yeah, nice to meet all you guys. Yeah, job everyone. Uh, my name is Danny. I pronouncer David. Um, I'm a Wellington by way of Seattle by way of Auckland. Um, I'm an OE child because my dad went overseas, met my mom in America. She's the American. Half blah, blah, blah. Um, now that I'm here, though, [00:04:30] uh, I'm really, uh, involved with, uh up at up at the Victoria University. Um, where I'm studying where I'm wrapping up my undergraduate and media studies finally. And, um, recently, I've been, uh, working my butt off to get, uh, the Wellington chapter of no private prisons off the ground. Um, side notes massive Star Wars nerd and I play magic. The gathering? Yeah, right. [00:05:00] Hi. I'm a am. I pronounce it. Um, pretty much. I'm just full time disabled. At the moment, I was a caregiver. I can't do that work anymore. Um, I'm a roller derby referee, so I call penalties on every week. Uh, she doesn't get that many penalty. She's gone. Um, yeah. Living with two cats and a couple of rabbits and some humans and yeah, pretty much [00:05:30] gardening and roller Derby. Hi, everyone. My name is Remi. I just stand up to the back side of the talk, but I came with the, uh, people from South Auckland. Um, so I'm a first generation Samoan born in New Zealand. So my parents came from Samoa, and I'm first generation born here. Um, born in Auckland, [00:06:00] Lived in Auckland my whole life. Same house. Still there. It's great. Um, I am currently studying, uh, personal training. Um, but I originally studied design, but I have, you know, yeah, Uh, and other than that, I'm also, um I'll be running Zumba tomorrow morning, so if anyone wants to come check it out, please come. Uh and also, um, I'm also a huge gamer, so I play a lot of games, so yeah, yes. [00:06:30] Yeah, but you'll learn more about me as time goes on, but yeah, that's basically me for now. Thank you. So what identities do you all have that, um, makes you feel like a minority within the rainbow community? Um, I could talk a little bit about that. Jeez, we start, I suppose, Um, for me, it's like, I guess, you know, with with my [00:07:00] ethnic background, you know that already it already sets things on that, but in terms of, like, you know it, there's always, um in terms of being to Asian Maori is, um, not many. I don't find many people that I can that come from the same place as I do. Um, and they can you know, I personally I don't take too much note of that, but at the same time, it's like you could really tell kind of the difference in the numbers of, you know, um, [00:07:30] those that are of, you know, Polynesian or Maori descent. And then, um, just everyone else, if you know what I mean. So it's, um Yeah, there's there's always there's always less and more of everyone else, and sometimes you can get a bit a bit loony. But I'm friends with everyone, so Yeah, it doesn't matter. Um, I also forgot to say my pronouns earlier, so I'm non binary, and my specific label is a gender, which means for those of you who don't [00:08:00] know that I don't have a gender. But if I did, it would have to be like a boy. Yeah. So I use that in pronouns. Cool. Um, and the same as a, um I'm like part Maori and Japanese, and that's like a pretty like, rare combination. And because, like, I am so mixed, like, I'm kind of diluted I don't really, like, fit properly into any sort of like ethnic community [00:08:30] because I'm not, like, fully anything. So I'm kind of like in this awkward limbo in between, Like, trying to, like, fit into different groups. Um, and also just like being non-binary and by along with the different cultural backgrounds is quite a specialised niche. Yeah, I guess for me, um, the two that I've been thinking a lot about are, uh, [00:09:00] my trans, I guess. Um, because I'm very visible. Um, you know, this is actually the second only the second time I've ever worn the skirt, but, um, you know, presenting feminine as somebody who is a side male at birth does. And not passing as feminine as like makes me really, really, really visible when I go out in public. And that can be really scary. Um, and there's also just, like, the notion of how I actually identify which is [00:09:30] complicated. Um, you know, and that very, like that notion of, like, not fitting into any box just right. So, like some, like, you know, a gender kind of works, but not all the way gender kind of works, but not all the way. Um, and then them really, really, really fit. Like, I guess I would describe it as somewhere between, like, uh, gay Maleness and trans womanhood. Um, and that's really complicated because nobody knows where to place me when, Like, I guess I would [00:10:00] consider myself very womanly. Except I date gay men. And that complicates things a bit. Um, yeah. So that's the like, the one the big one. And the other one like, shouldn't make me feel like a minority, but it kind of does. Um, like, uh, I'm currently getting, uh, pursuing a diagnosis for PTSD. Um, I have have a bit of trauma to deal with and, um, I don't know. I just feel like a lot of the spaces that I do navigate like the the rainbow spaces that I do navigate [00:10:30] are, um, it's very difficult to talk openly about those things. And so you do kind of feel isolated alone, and you're a minority and all those things, even though odds are pretty good that it's not a minority status in our community. So being physically disabled, I find a lot of rainbow spaces are just not accessible for me. Um, physically not being able to get into spaces, not being able to stand at standing only events. I've ended up sitting on the pavement at rallies, not being able to get [00:11:00] up things like that. Um, I'm also asexuals and a romantic. Um, there's not a lot of awareness. And there is a lot of outright hatred online which sort of impacts all our faces because you come to expect it, and you never know where it's gonna be safe for you to go. Um, I just realised I forgot to mention this earlier. Um, I identify as gay, and I prefer pronouncer or queen. [00:11:30] Um, so, uh, for me, I find that, um I struggle a lot with, um different. Uh, my different, I guess. Parts of my background and, um, how balanced they are. So for me, it's not only culture, Uh, because I was born in New Zealand and raised in New Zealand. So, um, not only that, but also, um, I'm I've got an interesting connection with, um religion. So religion was quite difficult for me, Uh, specifically, [00:12:00] uh, being brought up in a Christian family, Uh, and also I and my family, I'm the first person to come out as part of the rainbow. So, um, that's quite close. Like, um, for my cousins, big, big family or my cousins, but, um yes. So, I, I personally struggle with the whole balance of not being enough of everything, you know. So, um, not enough of your culture. Not enough of your religion. Not enough of It's always not enough. You know, like, um, but it's all [00:12:30] about for me. I struggle with the balance of what? What does it mean to be you? As opposed to What does everyone want you to be? So what challenges do you all face? Um, having those identities and experiences when you're, um I guess in rainbow Communities or Spaces, Um, that could include things, like, Does it Do you feel represented? Do you see other people like yourselves? Do you feel discriminated against? Do you feel like you have access to those spaces? [00:13:00] Um, any Oh, yeah, I, too forgot to my pronounce. So it's just, um just her and she Pretty simple, um, being, um being transgender is always very difficult in any group. Um, it's, you know, it's like what Danny said. It's like, you know, if if you stand out, you will stand out, especially in society. Um, And then in the rain community itself, [00:13:30] there's always a a lack of representation for the trans community. Um, it's just Yeah, I guess, because it's always And when it first when it first came up, you know, it was founded on on the queer and gay gay humanity, you know, and then the trans community is kind of kind of slowly rolling and after that, but it can be very difficult when um, being a minority and also being transgender, which is also a minority within the queer community, [00:14:00] is that you know, you're kind of almost invisible in a way, in terms of, um, support and and finding places to go could be very, very hard. And also yeah. And then when you go out into the public, it's not easy either, because, you know, there's always features that will, people will pick up that can kind of be quite difficult to deal with. Yeah, um, personally, I've had no, um, problems with [00:14:30] with any groups or the community, but, um uh, I. I know people that have and I know it exists, and I'm really well aware of it, but I think raising awareness and, um, yeah, raising awareness and kind of giving people information about transgender. It can be, um, you could very change things, because at the moment, it's really like a something that's in the grey area slowly kind of pushing itself forward, you know, with, like, the kind of press releases of, you know, well, some Caitlyn Jenner [00:15:00] and stuff. But as much as I hate to admit it, this this individual, you know, it's pretty much, you know, been, you know, now posted all over the world for people to see. But unfortunately, people don't quite understand because, you know, the person, you know, it wasn't quite done in a way, that is, quite I find acceptable. But in the end, it is still exposure. And, you know, I think, you know, just kind of start working from there in a way. But yeah, I, [00:15:30] uh, mostly struggle, like within the rainbow community with the lack of intersectionality in some spaces. This was mostly my experience with, like, my high school QS a which I just finished up last year. Um, like I went to a couple of meetings but quickly decided that, you know, I'd help out with various events, but that, like, actually going to the meetings and being in that space wasn't for me. And mostly that was because, um, the QS a then was [00:16:00] like predominantly, like NZ European people. And there was, like, kind of a lack of understanding of the crossover with, like, LGBT rights LGBT plus rights and, like racism and the understanding of, like, you know, how both can quite heavily impact a person. And I think like one of those main examples was when that woman Rachel, whatever her name was, was in the media last year about like, trans racialism and I saw a lot of people [00:16:30] in, like USA who are NZPO talking about how they didn't understand that. Like how it was different from being transgender, and to me, I was just like, uh, you know, like trying to explain it in a way that wouldn't alienate them. But it was difficult for me because it was quite an emotional subject. And I felt like there was just a lack of understanding between the two things And, um also because in the wider, not like necessarily in the the Rainbow community, but like in wider [00:17:00] society in general, non-binary isn't really recognised as, like, a thing in most places. And there's, um, very little positive representation of transgender people in the media in general, or by people like at all. So, yeah, that's where I struggle. I guess I should clarify that I kind of identify as my non binary as well, just [00:17:30] as a catch all for boxes aren't neat and don't fit. Don't like boxes, not a cat. Sometimes I wanna be a cat, but not Oh, my God, No, That's not true. I'm not very, um, yeah, it's very good for me, but, um, I love kids. But, um, I guess for me it's like because I'm not fitting into either any of those boxes, especially spaces that are kind of inclusive by a design or maybe necessity, [00:18:00] Um, just aren't sure what to do with me. So I encounter a lot of gatekeeping, especially when, like, um, you know, I just gotta be careful how I identify with people when I'm trying to get to certain places. So if, like, I'm navigating gay male spaces, I'll just say non binary I won't like, say, identify with womanhood. Um, but when it comes to like accessing women's spaces, um, it's very complicated because often times a lot of the time now, uh, those spaces will be like, Yes, we recognise that non-binary people are marginalised, too. You're [00:18:30] welcome in our spaces. Um, but then they'll also say, um, the space is not for males. And then it's like, Well, which one are you trying to put me in? Um, and that causes a lot of confusion. Especially like if you say, like male instead of men, which comes up very often. And so, like, you know, I don't identify with manhood, and so I don't have a problem with that? Um, but when it comes to male, I don't know if those people like are, you know, understand trans issues enough to be able to, like, make the understand the differences between sex [00:19:00] and gender. Um, and whether they're just seeing like me for my assigned sex, which has nothing to do with, um, like, cis gender. Um, the gender I was assigned at birth. Um, and so, like I, I get turned away a lot. I feel like I've been turned away a lot for the by those things, and I have been turned away by those things. Um, because they kind of functions, as I guess, a dog whistle. Um, so it's like it doesn't It's innocuous to everybody else, his men male or whatever. Um, but to me, I [00:19:30] hear it, and I'm like, OK, well, are you trying to low key? Tell me that you think I'm male and I don't belong here because you think of me as a man or not. And, um so, yeah, it gets really, really, really tricky on that front for me in particular, because I just don't fit neatly into the boxes. A major one is people not thinking through accessibility issues. So I've had things like people not realising that the lift at the venue has a key code. People who were told by [00:20:00] an able bodied venue owner that there were no stairs and took them at their word and didn't check that was a forum of disability rights that got cancelled because there was, in fact, a step. Um, things like that. People just don't follow through and check things up or people who don't think about it to start with. Um, accessibility needs to be on the page from day one, and it needs to be put out there if there are stairs, if it is uphill, any of that so that people know, Um [00:20:30] and then the other one with a arrow issues. So Ace is asexuals. Arrow is a romantic. We're just not on people's radar. So, especially with a lot of the culture that there is online with gatekeeping, you need to really be explicit if we are welcome, because a lot of us tend to assume that we're not because of just the things we've come across in the wider community, particularly online. And there is a lot of gatekeeping just because we're a new thing for people and new things are scary. [00:21:00] Yeah. So for me personally, I've always struggled with my upbringing, Uh, as a Christian. Um, So, um, being someone is quite a big thing in my family, and I work quite across, uh, across the board, like with all my aunties and uncles, siblings and stuff. Um, but I found that for me, growing up, it got to a point where it felt like I couldn't [00:21:30] breathe through all of that. Like, you know, I didn't have the space to, uh, come to terms with who I was because there was so much expectations for what I should be in terms of what I should believe who I should be, Um, like, you know, are you enough? Can you speak? You know, there's a lot of pressure for those sort of things. So I had to sort of take myself back and just think, OK, who am I? How do how does this make me feel? And then it got to a point where I I'm still very, um respectful [00:22:00] of everyone's beliefs because I still believe that no matter what you believe in If it gets you through the day like, you know, we've all been through the years. You know, everyone's made it through in their own way. Who's to say that there's only one answer, But I find that, um, with religion, uh, when I'm in a space where, uh, how should I say a lot of people identify with, say, Christianity. It's very hard for me because I don't personally fit [00:22:30] into that box anymore, just with me. So what I am very respectful of everyone around who does believe is just for me. I feel like I can't speak about how I feel, I guess in terms of how just the way it was represented through my upbringing, that's a personal thing. But so I struggle with, um, discussions around beliefs and religion. How do you think? Um, Rambo spaces and communities can be more inclusive of people who identify in the same [00:23:00] or similar ways to you. I know a couple of you have already touched on some things, but you gonna expand it all? Yeah, I think it was like I explained before. It's like, um, with, like the transgender community in particular, it's, um I think it's It's spreading awareness information because, um, a lot of people make assumptions or can say very hurtful things about realising it to this, you know, to someone who's transgender and many times I had to kind of like protest or kind of like, [00:23:30] you know, inform an individual about you know, how insulting their words were. Especially on social media. Um, like to educate. It's good to educate and to let people know that, yeah, we do exist. And then, you know, you know, we're not like we're not entertainment, you know? We're not like we're not kind of like, you know, something to be kind of paraded around as freaks Or, you know, to be laughed at in terms of like, because if you see how, like, you know, [00:24:00] um, trans transgender people have been represented like, say, in Hollywood or in films, you know, it's always it's always been a joke. Um, and people tend to like, take it on like that, and it can get very frustrating when people kind of respond to it. In a way, it's like, Oh, hey, you know, Y. You just you know, you're just a guy in a dress and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, Or you're a sexual deviant because, you know, I've seen many things or, you know, this is all I've kind of been exposed [00:24:30] to in terms of the way or or like Oh, you're only doing this to get into the ladies' bathroom. You know, it it people to, you know, be real dodgy. And it's like, No, you don't understand. So I think, um, yeah, kind of just to kind of get rid of, you know, the these ideals within, Especially I'm talking about, you know, not just the rainbow, You know, not the rainbow community I'm talking about, Really. It's pretty much like everything else. Um, and also like as families [00:25:00] can be very hard to deal with. Um, especially because since they too don't know, you know, especially like your parents. You know, they come from a generation where, you know, a lot of these terms never really apply to them. And so, you know, when their child does come out to transgender, they either freak out or, you know, kind of take it in a bad way, because that's in terms of what they've been exposed to in their lives, Um, could be very, very difficult. So I think, Yeah, um, really [00:25:30] just, you know, presenting. You know, if we had, like, the correct the right role models to go out there and really kind of give the correct information and take away the kind of social stigma put towards people with transgender, then, you know, I think it'll be very fantastic. And I think, you know, we're in a day and age now where it has become more acceptable and things are changing because, you know, we have the younger generation. We have us, you know, and everyone else that's going to be coming into this world [00:26:00] will have a, um a better understanding of all these subjects. And I think, Yeah, you know, the future will be brightening again, but it's gonna take a while to get there. Yeah, um, add on to what I said. Um, basically, if you're like a trans ally or you're just a rain community ally in general, um, something for you guys personally to do if you're brave enough is if you just hear someone saying something [00:26:30] like, kind of ignorant or using slurs, and you're comfortable with just saying Hey, you know, that's kind of not OK, Um, like, not necessarily in an aggressive way, like telling them that they're like crap and stuff, but just, like gently pull them aside and be like, Yo, you know, there's some extra information on it Or, like, you know, just spreading positive information and educating people in a way that isn't like [00:27:00] confrontational. Because, you know, I've tried the confrontational approach and it just makes people angry and they just don't wanna listen to anything you've got to say, even though it is like an emotional subject for quite a lot of people. Um, and the same goes for cultural prejudice, I guess as well, like not necessarily calling people out on it like all the time, but also like educating yourself so that, you know, like, what isn't isn't OK to talk about like or, you know, say to someone who is of a certain [00:27:30] background and, um yeah, also, just being gene generally aware of of different sets of issues is cool. Um, I wonder if you had anything else to add around, um being and, um and completely forgot about that. How many things do you have like um, minority art. A minority? Um, yeah. With with being by, um, like, I do experience like prejudice as well [00:28:00] from, um, sis, gay people and sis lesbian people. Because, you know, there's a lot of really stupid singers around by people like, Oh, you just need to pick a side and oh, you're gonna cheat and you're promiscuous and stuff like I once when I identified a sis, had a guy come up to me and say that I had a fetish for girls implying that women weren't people, Um, which is a bit concerning. But, um, I guess with that as well, it's also just spreading positive information about it and like [00:28:30] having like if you personally, because, you know, everyone is kind of prejudiced to some extent because that's the way that we're brought up to think by society and media in general. We're, um, conditioned from a very young age to think a certain way, and you have to actively dismantle all of those prejudices within yourself. Like I still have transphobic thoughts. And I've been out as no by for like, a bit over a year, and it takes time and effort to actively stop yourself from thinking this way because that's the way that we've all been [00:29:00] brought up to think. So if you just put a little bit of effort in every other day to just be like, Hey, this isn't OK, I'm gonna be Zen and not be, like, having a chill. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess I'm starting to see a lot of positive changes come into effect. Um, so at there is a space called the women's room, Um, which is just a permanent space that uniq currently lacks. Working on that, Um, that [00:29:30] is just a safe space for to go. Um, now they have signs. I know that explicitly say, because they had a run in with a turf, apparently a trans exclusive. Uh, radical feminist, Um, basically, people who just know trans know about trans people but are still actively transphobic anyway and think that that's feminist. Um, but I guess they had an encounter with one of those people. And so, uh, now there are signs within the women's room that say that the space is open for women and non-binary people. They just, you know, probably a step forward. It does make me feel a lot more comfortable to set foot [00:30:00] in there. Um, even though, like depending on the context, I guess I would identify as one or the other or both on either, Um, just, uh, hang on to keep my thoughts organised by writing them down. Um, but despite that, I still experience and see, like, a lot of stratification of femininity and which ones are valid or not. Um uh, So, for example, um, [00:30:30] somebody once literally told me. And, um Ok, fine. So you're trans feminine and whatever, but you're not a trans woman. And there's really very, very, very little distinction, if any at all, Especially when it comes to, you know, to who needs access to certain spaces. Right? Um and like, I think part of the root of that problem is like, how, uh, how I present it, because it's not always like this. Um, like I said when we were going over kind of the, [00:31:00] um what do you call them? Not the ground rules, but the stuff at the very beginning that we all read out. Yeah. Yeah, that's just the values that you know. You know, I was talking about how we need to trust in each other that this is a space and rec safe space and recognise that some people may not be the way they are here, back home or whatever. Um, and you know, I definitely feel that way, I. I don't get to wear my skirt very often. Um, because, you know, there's like, I I'm not like I I'll get the shit kicked out of me. You know, if I walk down [00:31:30] our if I walk down our street to campus or whatever a night wearing a you know, a skirt, I'll get punished for wearing lipstick in ways that cisgender women don't necessarily, Um, and so that stratification really like that. Just that some femininity are worth more than others is really upsetting to me on that front. Um, because you know, So I you know, sometimes it's not even sometimes it's dysphoric, and sometimes it's not. But sometimes I, you know, I just present more. [00:32:00] Um, I hate to use the word masculine because it doesn't fit me at all, but it's kind of how it looks to other people. Um and so I get, like, kind of the the like, the label of the part time fem or whatever. Um, when I'm always fem and I'm always feminine and my femininity is just as valid as that obsess women. Um, yeah, that's it. It basically comes back to looking out for one another. Um, a lot of the stuff that gets said about various [00:32:30] groups said behind our backs. So if you hear it and it's safe for you to say something, say something. Um, if it's not safe for you to say something, depending on where you are, you might be able to sort of go around and get someone else to say something like, I don't know, teachers or whatever. Coaches go for it if you can, um and yeah, building it in to organisations and events right from the start. So don't wait for a disabled person or a nice person or whatever to ask. Is [00:33:00] this for us and make it for them from the start and put that on your event pages. Think about it and just make sure people can actually get into this space and feel welcome there. Um, so for me, uh, I guess it goes back to what I said earlier with, um, the idea of balance. Uh, so the struggles that I have not only with religion also come with stuff like family, um, religion. And [00:33:30] there's family culture. There's so many things that you struggle. Um, when I was growing up, you know, I raised a certain way that you when you're young, you're just like, I'll just go with it. But when you get to a certain age, you start thinking, Wait, this doesn't really fit me. And then when I came out into the space that accepted me, I found that some of the conflicts I had within my family were raised again. So there's still a lot of, um, times where, um, religion [00:34:00] still hits me. And it's very hard for me to talk about it to people who who identify in that particular religion, which would be Christianity. Um, just with the way that it was, um, presented to me through my parents and my family, um, I find that it's hard to talk to to talk to people who identify under that religion about me, not necessarily identifying completely under it. Um, I'm very big on how does it make you feel within yourself? [00:34:30] Um, so I think that I definitely think things are changing. And, um, people are becoming more open to discuss things. But I still think religion is still a very difficult one because you're raised in a certain way. And then that's all you know. And then you get to a point Where does this really fit me? So it's Yeah, But I think, um, just having a an open mind to discussion. And, um, I think we'll find that the core values that we all want and we all need are actually very similar. [00:35:00] Um, yeah. Last this year, have you ever had an experience, um, or experiences of being in a space, Um, where you did feel affirmed and validated and, um, I guess included. Um And I don't know if you want to share anything about that and how that made you feel or what they did. Um, and you're welcome to pass if you don't feel like you've had an experience like that, Um, yeah, uh, I used to, um, be a part of the, [00:35:30] um, group called Transform. So, um, transform is a, uh, kind of a youth group for trans Youth meeting once every fortnight. And, um, it is a space where, um, trans youth meet up and, uh, select individuals would facilitate the event. Um, I find that space very accommodating because it's it's a it's a perfect It's a perfect, um, time and opportunity for us to discuss matters and issues amongst each other [00:36:00] and just be very open with ourselves without worrying about you know, anything on the outside, we can have a safe environment. And and, um, I think that where I feel probably the most accepted and safe is roller derby. Um, the role of Derby community is, um, quite highly accepting of, um, of of queer and trance. Um, they actually actually have the, um, the [00:36:30] is it? What? What what's the stand for again? Women's Track Derby Association. But the Derby Association in general, um, actually has rules put in place to avoid, um, bullying and harm of, um, people of their, you know, their gender identity, um, as well as, um, rules set in place for, um, trans women to compete at their leisure without any hassle. You know, prejudice or transphobia. [00:37:00] Um, and if those were to ever be, if that were to ever happen, disciplinary action will happen. So It's very good to know to be a part of a A and a sport that's accepting and a community that actually, um, you know, takes note of that and sets rules in place to protect, um, queer, uh, queer and trans people, So yeah. No. So when I'm when I'm on that track, you know, I feel very comfortable with myself. Very happy, because I know I'm surrounded by people that are very accepting, and we're all there to [00:37:30] participate and do one thing. Yeah. Hit each other with skates. Yeah, pretty much. Um, So I talked about how my school QS a was, like, not a place where I really felt safe for various reasons. Um, and that's why I didn't go to many meetings and I didn't really like I wasn't involved in any other rainbow community groups prior to that, um, or after until the beginning of this year, when I started volunteering with inside out. [00:38:00] Yeah, um, and that was really, really cool for me, because about a year ago I figured out that I was on binary, and I didn't really know how to deal with it. Um, and I didn't really know who to talk to because, like, I only had, like, one in real life, like non-binary friend and like, their experience was quite different from mine. Um, so I didn't really have space that I could properly talk about it and, like, you know, hash out my feelings about the [00:38:30] whole process. Um, And so when I went to the first meeting for inside out and I was like, Hm, you know what? I'm just gonna I'm just gonna use that in pronouns like I'm just gonna do it. And then, like, everyone was immediately like, yep, cool, like, fully accepting. And I was just like, Oh, my God, this is amazing. And they were also really cool when I, like, was using a different name than the one that I'd like when I met you. Like ages ago, I was using a different name, and that was just a really awesome experience for me, So [00:39:00] yeah. Um, so at the beginning of last year, I actually met several of the members of Auckland's no pride in prisons group, uh, before they'd actually formed as no pride in prisons. It was actually like, two or three weeks before Auckland Pride actually happened, and then we had her unbroken at the protest and all that. Um, and it was like I just met her. It was like, Oh, my God. Um, but when I was hanging out with them in that space, you know, um, it was really, really powerful for me to be, like, immediately just seen and read as [00:39:30] feminine, regardless of like how I was dressed because I had just been travelling. Um, I was visiting. I was visiting my family in Seattle and was, um, passing through Auckland to meet them. Meet this with this group because I've, you know, been connecting with them on social media. Of course, before I actually met them. So I was gonna do that on my way back to Wellington. Um, and so, you know, I've been travelling, So I was dressed in my leftover boy clothes to, uh, stay safe during that time. And despite that, you know, I said, and actually, I had a beard grow out at [00:40:00] the time, too, And, um, despite that, you know, I didn't I said, you know, they they knew me. Um, I was like, Hi, I'm Danny. They then blah, blah blah, but they immediately just saw me with a capital S rather than just like, you know, I'm literally seeing all of you in the room now. But like, they saw me for who I am, so I kind of say it as like a capital S. Um, So despite how I looked, they immediately understood that I was feminine. And that was really, really powerful for me because, you know, I do battle with dysphoria every now and then, [00:40:30] Um, particularly because, like, I guess this is a This is a place where non-binary would be a more useful term Is, um, for me to describe myself is that like I? I don't know what I want to look like because there's no, you know, there's not even a like a set narrative, I guess, for what? What NON-BINARY looks like. So I get this quote because I don't know what it looks like, but it's not that sort of thing. Um and that did not matter to the, um who are now [00:41:00] in a pride in prison group up in Auckland. They just immediately knew and they just stood and saw me for that. And I just felt really well held by that group. Um, and yeah. And the result of that is they suck me into the private prisons. So just looking at things and events since I've held my current identities and since people have known I'm gonna have to pass, um, I don't [00:41:30] know if you guys have heard of the Armageddon Expo. Yeah, So, um, uh, last year, I have grown a lot in terms of my own personal development with accepting who I am and just discovering that balance within myself. I'm a bit of a lone wolf in that way, but, um, I really do believe that it's really important that you yourself know who you are, as opposed to me worrying about what everyone thought that balance needed to be. So, for example, because I can't speak, um, Samoan doesn't make me any [00:42:00] less Samon stuff like that. You know, um, just because I personally don't identify with my religion at the moment doesn't mean that I didn't benefit from anything that, you know, I took out what I could from my experiences. Um, back to Armageddon Expo. So last year, Um, I was super. I was super happy, and I was like, You know what? I'm gonna cosplay for the first time, and I went in a certain, uh, moon, You might know the one, um and I went because I play street fighter, so I'm very I'm very all over the place, but [00:42:30] I play street fighter, so I went to go check it out, and there was a, um, a Polynesian male, a very masculine guy who was playing. And I was so nervous because I was dressed in my sailor moon costume and I was like, But I wanna play street fighter like, you know, like I really want to play. So I lined up and I played and he didn't Even better. He played against me and he was talking to me like, just as normal. And he was like, Oh, you're actually really good, Like you should join our group. And I was like, Oh, really? It was like, really, you know, I was like, wow, like it was such a positive experience for me because it was a fear that [00:43:00] I had, like, I already had, like, I was so worried. And I guess that is a testament to how far we have come while we still have a long way to go. But that was a really great experience. So, um, yeah, I go to watch the competition sometimes not in sale moon yet, but maybe, you know, thank you. Um, before we close this part of the Does anyone have any questions for the panel? I don't have any questions, but I do have a couple of things I would like to talk about myself. [00:43:30] Um, I learned very strongly to what David was saying about a lot of the issues with, um, non bitters and trans femininity. Um, especially with, um, the intersection between mental health issues and trans femininity, because they're kind of used as excuses to deny someone the agency over the other one. Like when I'm talking about trans people like, Oh, well, you're mentally ill. And, [00:44:00] you know, obviously your identity is just mental illness or function of mental illness, and vice versa. When I'm talking about my mental illnesses, people go, Oh, well, you know, it's it's all just a giant attention seeking gambit. Um, even though, you know, even I fought to seek, um, diagnoses, and I'm currently getting some more recently fingers crossed, but, um, that combined with the hyper visibility thing. I was very [00:44:30] I. I feel like I. I also had a lot of the agency robbed of me, um, in in regulating my visibility because it was immediate. I was, You know, I was shown a really false kind of sugar coated version of what it would be like. Um, you know, my area is is tolerant and accepting, you know, one of the good ones. Everyone's going to be fine. Just go out in the street beard dress, it be all good. Um, and, [00:45:00] um, I'm not really sure. I just wanted to talk a bit about how, um, transforming people and especially transforming people with mental illness are often, um, denied quite a lot of agency, both over regulating our own safety and our own identities. Thank you. Anyone else have any questions or comments you'd like to ask? Um, I went [00:45:30] back on the topic of day. How they were. They were also talking about how, like, it's quite hard for relationship wise, whereas like even though you've still got kind of the trans femininity, it's like straight. This man won't consider your body, but gay men would gaming shouldn't really be attracted because of the femininity. And then that's the same with the other, right? You know, straight, straight woman wouldn't really be attracted to you because you know, you're a woman, too. But then at least being a woman probably wouldn't consider your body either. So it's [00:46:00] you gotta try. It's really hard. And it it's quite lonely to find someone in that sort of regards being Trans. And with Trans, it's just you're quite isolated from certain types of relationships And what not because of? Because you're not sure what you are either. So you're not sure what people want from you, I suppose, Um, yeah, I feel that a lot. Um, my sexuality journey has actually been very different from my, uh, gender journey, I guess. Um, [00:46:30] they're obviously still very intertwined, but, like, um, you know, I went to the sexuality stuff first because I didn't discover what Trans this even was until later on. Of course. Um, sounds like the just being there, you know, starting to change a bit. Um, but, uh, what was I gonna say? But yeah. So, like, it's I don't know for me, you know, II, I don't think that there's [00:47:00] any one way or another, uh, on, like, the born this way debate. If, like you were born this way or you chose to be this way. Um, I think it's very different for very different people. I think for me, though, um, like my sexuality was something that, um, I didn't choose. Whereas my gender is something I came into a bit more, um, at the same time, it's not to say that, like, I was a socialised male and changed that, um, because I wasn't for various reasons. Um, one of them like being I'm pretty sure I'm on the autism spectrum, and that's [00:47:30] really affected the way my socialisation into society has occurred. Um, and where was I going with that? You has something for me off. Um, so, like, because of the specific traumas that I went through coming into my sexual identity, Um, like, I still want to navigate gay male spaces. And this is the game. Just speaking for myself. Personally, um, I still like that's the place where, um, I feel [00:48:00] most comfortable, if not the safest necessarily, Um, which is, you know, another really weird, awkward, complicated, boxy thing. Um, or like Unbox thing. Um, but, you know, I'm still going steady with my partner for over a year now. Um, and he's really embracing our stuff, and he gets, like, you know, um, you know, I know there's a lot of people in here who don't identify with that, and that's why we [00:48:30] kind of use Rainbow Community as a casual now. But like Queerness as a term still resonates hugely with me. Um, both in the way that my dad used the word offensively growing up. Um so, like going through the process of kind of reclaiming it for myself. Um, but also, uh, just in terms of not having to follow the rules, you know, um, like, I can be feminine and I can dedicate it and it's still gay. It's not imitating heterosexuality. Um, and so that's [00:49:00] become really important to me. And I'm very lucky now to have a partner who sees that and recognises that and, you know, periodically have the conversation of, like, you know, I'm at home, so I'm not impressing anybody. And so to avoid laundry day for another couple of days, I wear my best of boy clothes, and so like that happens a lot around him. And we had a conversation recently about, like, you know, I'm not. You know, I feel like you aren't seeing the whole me right now. Um, So we went on a dinner date and I put on lipstick, um, and some of my more feminine clothes, and he was totally cool with it. And it's been, like, really embracing [00:49:30] with that. And that's been really powerful and important to me. I think Roll it to everyone. They call me too high, enter a roller derby and then discovered that I wasn't accepting an open community. Or did you realise that it was an accepted open community and then get into it? Um, no, actually, yeah. I don't know. I just I joined it. Then I found out it was an accepting community. Um, it [00:50:00] took a lot of guts to join because, like it's being a being a woman's sport and, um, something I really want to be a part of At the time, I was very nervous. Of how? Because, like, in terms of like how, um, you know, the sports community responds to transgender individuals is, you know, can be very difficult because, you know, you always get the conflicting argument. It's like, Oh, this person shouldn't be on this team because, you know, they were originally IML, you know, it's unfair. It's a competitive [00:50:30] advantage. But, um, no, I didn't get any of that, um, joining that community and and, you know, training in that sport I I Yeah, I found out that it's quite well accepting. And there's actually a, um, a Derby league dedicated for the rainbow community called, uh, regime. Yeah. So, uh, well, VRDL so regime regime Derby League, um, which is like a a collective of all the, um kind of like [00:51:00] a from all over New Zealand, joining this one group so they can compete against other leagues, if possible. So finding out that there's also if I, you know, I have my league. But then knowing there's another league I I can join to compete with as well is fantastic. Yeah. Um, I did join not knowing that and finding out that it was that really just helped boost my confidence. And Yeah, and like I said, it's like it's It's one of the very few sports that is quite accepting. You know, And it doesn't, you know, and [00:51:30] has rules in place to protect that and so that you can keep competing. Yeah, it was got heaps of questions, but possibly, um I mean, referring to Danny Danny talking about Sorry to put you under the spot again. Um, and your story about, uh, your sexuality and your gender [00:52:00] identity, um, forming in different ways at different times. And I think that's just a thing to note in rainbow Communities to acknowledge that gender and sexuality as well as, um, gender presentation and sexual characteristics. Unfortunately, we haven't got any intersex, uh, representation here, So that's a shame that will be talked [00:52:30] about this evening. And so just acknowledging that those things, though for some may be interlinked closely aren't necessarily linked at all particularly, um, with people who identify as ace or arrow and also as transgender because a lot of people, even within the trans community, may assume that [00:53:00] your gender is interlink with your sexuality, but, um, yeah, so basically, just take note of that. Yeah, I think I mentioned it. I just want to emphasise the game. Like, um, I don't want to speak for over anybody like my I said those things about for me separately. For other people, they may be very, very, very closely intertwined. Um and yeah, I think, like, [00:53:30] I like the word queer a lot, because for me, it just means throwing out the rulebook in a lot of ways. And anything goes, everything's valid in those ways. Um, but I didn't, of course, also recognise that that word is very uncomfortable for comfortable for a lot of people. Um, so yeah. So in that balance, Absolutely. Um I was just gonna say, like, how would you get involved in doing roller Derby? Like, if you like. I kind of want to do it, but, um, like, participate in roller Derby, But, like, how [00:54:00] would I do that? Um, that's simple for, um, really? Because, um, we we will, um I will provide you. We will just provide people who are interested with, like, a, um, a link or, you know, uh, email address and they can get in contact with the recruitment officer. So Well, all the machine, the whole gets all these people doing things, but, um, yeah, we called, um fresh meat. So that's what we call our beginners. fresh, fresh meat. So, um yeah, essentially, you [00:54:30] just you contact the league through the fresh meat. Um, email address, Um, telling the recruitment officer, obviously You wanna join? And yeah, they'll sort you out. Yeah, simple as that. Um, sorry to waste the time, but I just wanted to say it's great to see the representation that there is especially like of the, like, ace and arrow Spectrum, because that's not talked about a lot. And like, I'm questioning that and yeah, also, like people who don't necessarily fit into [00:55:00] the normal trends like the way it's meant to happen, people who could be non binary or like, not fit into those boxes. It's just really great to see this shit. Um, so I would just like to give a huge round of applause and thank you. [00:55:30] It's it's so so, um brave and and vulnerable for people to come up here and share those identities, especially when they have a history of not being felt made to feel welcome and safe in in communities like this. So just Yeah, thank you so much for your generosity today, And I'm sure, um, all of our panellists will be around during the week. If you have further questions, if you identify similarly or a question, if you want to come and chat to them, if there's anything that they don't want to answer, they can. They'll let you know that, Um, but happy Have you chat to people [00:56:00] about that? Yeah. Awesome. So, um, what we're gonna do now is we'll keep it quite quite quick. Um, so about 10 minute brainstorm sessions, um, on some of these different identities. And you're welcome to add in others if you want as well. Um, and how we think we can make our communities more inclusive of them or, um, Or if you think there's maybe some other things that haven't been raised on this, um, panel. Because, of course, with limited time, we can only cover so much. And there's heaps of stuff in our community. Um, yeah, if you wanna raise those as well you're welcome [00:56:30] to. So maybe either go to a group that you is one that you think you'd like to learn more about, and, um, really want to learn how you can be more inclusive to people like that in your spaces or, um, groups or you could go to one that you identify with. And you think you might be able to, um, give some really good ideas for how you'd like to feel more included? Um and then we'll have, um, morning tea and a little break.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089736
TITLE: Remembering Neil Costelloe
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VOICES: Jayne Costelloe
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; AIDS Memorial Quilt; Aotearoa New Zealand; Arthur Tauhore; Banks Peninsula; Bayly Watson; Beacons of Hope (Wellington); Catholicism; Christchurch; David Hindley; Easter Rising (Ireland); Gay Task Force; Gebbies Pass; God Bless Us Nelly Queens; Golders Green Crematorium (London); Greymouth; Greymouth Evening Star (newspaper); HIV / AIDS; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Ireland; Jayne Costelloe; Jon Lusk; Kat Hall; Kumara; Lambda symbol; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Lesbian and Gay Dances (Wellington); London; Massey University; Mount Ruapehu; NZAF Ā whina Centre; Neil Anderson; Neil Costelloe; New York City; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; New Zealand Broadcasting Corporation (NZBC); Ngā Taonga Sound and Vision; Parliament buildings; Pink Triangle collective; Pipitea Street; Railway Tavern; Rob Lake; Roger Swanson; Sally Hunter; Salvation Army; San Francisco; Shane Town; Tai Tapu School; United Kingdom; Wellington; Wellington Botanic Gardens; Wellington Gay Switchboard; Wellington Gay Task Force; West Coast; Whairepo / Frank Kitts Park Lagoon; activism; anger; bars; bravery; bullying; cancer; children; coming out; dance; depression; design; disco; discrimination; drawing; dream; dress up; employment; family; fearless; friends; gay; gay cancer; gay liberation movement; graphic design; health; health insurance; helpline; homosexual law reform; human rights; isolation; lesbian; marriage; media; mental health; overseas experience (OE); parents; parties; photo journalism; photography; police; posters; protest; queer bashing; rally; relationships; religion; repression; rugby; school; self defence; sewing; sport; support; television; wills
DATE: 9 April 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm here today with Jane, and today we're going to talk about her brother Neil Costello. Um and I guess the first thing Jane is how did Neil bring us together? I went to see the documentary that you put together for the and, um, I took my two Children with me, who Neil's never met because he died before they were born. And so and then they're now 14 and 12. So I was hoping, um, well, [00:00:30] I went for two reasons because I was interested in the the era and the actual to see that time period portrayed on screen. I have, you know, memories of what it meant to Neil, even though I was overseas doing my OE at the time. I remember the huge role it played in Neil's life and the role that he played in the, um the protests and getting that bill passed into law. So I wanted to go and see [00:01:00] the time recreated and hopefully see some familiar faces. And I was wanting on a personal level. I was hoping to see um, Neil again for myself and hopefully introduce my Children to his kind of living image and person for the first time. So the documentary was all about the homosexual law reform in Was it 85 86. So tell me about [00:01:30] Neill's participation in that liberal reform campaign. Well, I always remember him being very involved. Um, on the material level, his involvement was protesting. He was always very forthcoming with his opinions. He was very clear about his perspective and his take on it. He was very angry with the situation, the the lack of rights and the discrimination and just the injustice that really for Neil. It boiled down to [00:02:00] simple injustice. The current situation historically and currently was wrong and there were no rights for gay men. And, um and that needed to be changed. So he did his utmost to just to make that happen. And for him that took the form of attending all the protests, probably helping organise the protest. Being at the forefront of the protest, he was never afraid to come forward and say his piece to say what needed to be said [00:02:30] to whoever needed to hear it. Whether that meant being captured on film and beamed lived into his grandmother's lounge. He didn't care in the slightest about that. If they didn't like it, you know, they could lump it. He was prepared to take whatever flat came his way on a personal level. Um, and also he did a lot of, um his work behind the scenes was in. He was currently studying graphic design at Wellington Polytech doing the bachelor degree there. [00:03:00] So he was involved in raising money and attending the the, um, the gay Dancers. I can't remember what they called them that they always held up at uni. And so he did a lot of the graphic design work for the posters and the protest posters. And so yeah, mainly fronting being involved, um, on the front line of a lot of protests Parliament, the town hall, lower hut, and doing a lot of the artwork, you know, for the posters in terms [00:03:30] of rallying people and calling people together in the footage I've seen of him, he is absolutely fearless in terms of confronting, You know, either the Salvation Army or there was a a preacher on one of the marches that he kind of pushes them into. Where does that fearlessness comes from? Yeah, that's a good question. Um, I think it's a night. I think it was a knight. He, um he [00:04:00] he I think he realised he was gay from a from a young age. You know, um, in terms of I think he always knew he was gay, but he kind of realised his gayness from the age of six. So that experience of growing up, always knowing that he was different, marginalised, um, it never cowed him, I think possibly as a young child. 10, 11, 12. He, um he would have struggled with the the name calling [00:04:30] the bullying, But I think the effect it had on him was to just come out fighting. Um, I think a lot of that innate courage is from I would say it possibly comes from his Irish background. You know, like in terms of his four, our four grandparents, they were all born into the Irish Catholic community on the west Coast. Um, and our eight grand great grandparents all came from Ireland, [00:05:00] pretty much to the west coast. So they were born into and there was no other blood involved. There is no English blood. There is no, you know, German blood or Italian blood. It's all Irish, and I think that just genetically or psychically or on a cellular level, whatever a soul level, um, that's just what he is. He's just one of those fighting Irish, you know, in the same way that we've just had the Centenary [00:05:30] of the Easter rebellion. I don't know if you, you know, know much about that, but the the people involved there were poets, scholars. They knew they weren't going to win that war. The Easter rebellion. And they didn't. They were all executed, but they rebelled. Anyway, It was a symbolic gesture. And it turns out that they won and over the course of time, And I think just Neil just had that blood. He just [00:06:00] had that warrior fierceness that he was uncowed. So he was born in 1960. So we're talking about growing up in New Zealand in the early sixties. Can you paint a picture of what it was like kind of growing up in in that time? Yeah, well, he was born in, um we were living in Kumara Junction at that time, which is? My father was with the New Zealand Broadcasting Corporation. So he was a technician, So we were we always lived. Um, we lived at the NZ BC transmitter [00:06:30] at Kamara Junction, which was, um, two houses. So two families and a single man's quarters. And we were So my mother and father were isolated in the Kumara Junction. But Greymouth, which was where they were both born, was Maybe maybe it's 12 miles. Maybe it's 20 miles north. So we were very plugged into our grandparents. Two sets of grandparents, tribe of cousins, whole tribes of cousins. Um, but my mother was [00:07:00] kind of slightly different from all her brothers and sister In-laws. Um, she Yeah, there was kind of something going on with my mother. I think today she would have been diagnosed as, um depressed, you know, And there was no help, and there was no counselling. So my mother struggled with, um maternity. Um, so we were born into It was a very repressed, [00:07:30] buttoned down kind of outward society. But we had a we had a, um we had some nice aunties and uncles, and it was a very strong kin kind of network. Although it was kind of in the Irish Catholic Way was pretty repressed. It was repressed for us girls and Neil quickly would have got the message that to be a sort of a a gay boy [00:08:00] in the 19 sixties, you know, wasn't a good thing. So he would have had to sort of button down a lot of his natural, um, loves and instincts, you know, it wasn't OK for him to, you know, just, you know, dressing girls clothes or anything he might have wanted to do. I mean, I was pretty much involved in my own thing, so I didn't kind of notice what it was like for him at the time. But looking back, I can see that any kind of urge to self expression that he [00:08:30] had would have been pretty much stamped on unless it was acceptable. And to be acceptable, you had to play sport, be interested in rugby. Yeah, and he, you know, he was never interested in that. So So we stayed on the west Coast for, um, we moved over to banks to another transmitter site in Gibby Pass, which was on Banks Peninsula, which was even more isolated in the top of a very high hill. It's as the crow flies [00:09:00] between Littleton and a If you pick the halfway spot. It would have been pass. So there was a transmitter station there. Um, so we moved there in nine. Neil was born in 1960 we moved there in 1964. So he was about three or four when we moved there. So, um, that was even more remote. And so But Neil was always very close to my mother, you know, Which was a good thing for him. So he had a warm [00:09:30] kind of loving relationship with my mother. You know, my mother. I think it was that old thing about, you know, possibly favouring the son. Maybe in her world. It wasn't until you produced the first son that you were. You truly arrived as a as a good daughter in law. I remember she always struggled being a a daughter-in-law. You know, my grandmother, my father's mother, was very severe, Um, for her own [00:10:00] reasons. You know, she was a very Irish matriarch. She had sick five boys, one girl. So, um, so Neil had a a very, um, a very loving relationship with his mother, which was nice for him. She always She always understood him and always protected him. Um, but then he moved. He would have moved off to school. He went to We went to school, which was kind of a 40 mile bus ride. Um, from Gibb's pass, I think it was fair and back. [00:10:30] Um, it's quite a distance. Um, and Neil? Yeah, I don't remember him liking school that much. He always struggled to fit in, I think because he was slightly different. Describe describe him as a as a child. Um, he loved drawing. He was always drawing. I think that was his kind of only allowed outlet. You know, he was quite, um [00:11:00] we always fought Neil and I because I think my kind of take on it is that because we were born into a very repressed, um, background and family, my mother was kind of depressed, anxious and isolated, uh, with no support. Um, there was a lot of tension, a lot of kind of unhappiness. We didn't understand why she was so unhappy. So Neil and I, Neil and I were always very close in the sense that [00:11:30] we shared the same temperament. Um whereas my two sisters I had an older sister and I was the second um, Brenda was my older sister. Then there was me then Neil. Then five years later, her younger sister, Pamela, came along. She was born at Gibb's Pass. Brenda and Pamela had kind of my father's temperament, which was very, um, kind of easy going. You know, nothing kind of ruffled them. They were easy going. [00:12:00] Didn't matter, you know, whereas Neil and I, we kind of shared our mother's temperament, which I think was the more kind of, you know, dominating, fiery sort of, you know, quite fiery and passionate. And if we weren't happy with something, then I think the dynamic that we got going was that we could let it out on each other. So we had this pact, this unspoken pact, that Neil and I could literally fight to the death. [00:12:30] But anything went, but it was OK, you know, we understood each other, and it was all OK, so we had a very, um, kind of a kind of an even sort of aggressive, kind of violent sort of relationship. We hated each other, and we did fight to the death, you know, he couldn't move or breathe without me, you know, hating it and and [00:13:00] vice versa. You know, I couldn't sit next to him in the car, in the back seat. You know, it was my poor mother, you know, she was constantly refereeing us, but, um, but we did have this unspoken agreement that we understood each other, and we always had each other's back, and, yeah, he, um so he was He was kind of an inside child, you know? He was he would draw a lot. He would spend a lot of time with my mom. Whereas I was my me and my older sister were outside playing with the neighbouring boys, you know, we had kind [00:13:30] of a gang and we were building huts and things like that. He was just a little bit younger and kind of not into that He had. He had his friend patrina from one of the next door houses who was his own age, a girl, and he used to play with her, and they used to go off and do their things, you know? So, um, we kind of didn't, you know, our worlds didn't connect outside and in our play life. Um, but, um, you know, we'd meet each other. We live together, and we'd kind [00:14:00] of suffer each other, you know, in the family and on holidays. And you were saying when he was six, he he realised he was gay. What? What happened at six. I don't know, Domingo. You know, sweetie, because he it was in his submission to parliament. He wrote, didn't he? That, um that Roger Swanson gave us from the gay and lesbian archive, his submission to parliament. And there he writes at six. He [00:14:30] writes that at six years old, he realised he was gay. Can you say anything more about that? Tommy? Do you remember what he actually said in the submission? How he realised he was gay when he was six. I think he was six. He he was aware that he was gay. And then when he was 12, he realised he was definitely gay. OK, can you remember how he knew he was gay? No, we don't know that. Uh, Neil, [00:15:00] I never had that conversation with Neil, so I can't pinpoint it to some of the tour. Yeah, I know that in school, he always his friend was always kind of another boy similar to himself, you know, and when I look back, I can see that. You know, he'd kind of, um, you know, teamed up with the other. Another boy who, you know, probably was gay as well. [00:15:30] You know, guys that didn't fit the the macho profile gentle kind of more sensitive, interested in other things. Kind of boys, you know, Um, so I remember at primary school and at, um, intermediate age and at college, early college, his best friend was always another boy that, you know, has since come out as gay, so kind of, you know, [00:16:00] you know, his friends were kind of his refuge in that way. So when were you first aware of its gayness? Um, not until I came. When I left for my OE in 1980 Neil would have been 19 and as far, and he was still living at home then. And, um, when I came back, sort of five years later, he was an out gay man living in street. So [00:16:30] I think I made a trip home in about 1982 and he told me he took me aside then and told me that he was gay. Yeah, that he had come out as gay and, um yeah, so that's the first I knew. But I remember having a sense of not being surprised, you know, that it perfectly fitted, um, the picture of of Neil and, um, you know, I mean, it wasn't [00:17:00] a big shock or anything like that. You know, it just made sense to me, you know? And I remembered that I couldn't ever get the feeling of him as a child as a young teen, you know, when you start thinking about maybe your future sister-in-law and you know, all that kind of thing that you maybe start doing when you're about 12. I never got a sense of Neil ever sort of getting married and marrying a woman and having Children. What was it like, say, in in the early eighties, when somebody [00:17:30] came out? I mean, what did that mean? Because I mean, coming out nowadays where homosexual law reform is I mean, it's it's it's legal. I mean, what did it mean? Back in 1982 somebody saying I'm gay. Gosh, it kind of meant something like, say, if you lived in Communist China and you weren't allowed to be a Christian, everybody was communist It's kind of like coming out and saying you're a Christian. You know, it [00:18:00] was, um it was a big deal, because, um, kind of wasn't allowed, you know, you weren't allowed to be gay. It was, um, So you were putting yourself on the opposite side of everybody of your family. I suppose I can only speak of a family, but, you know, the the reason it was such a big deal in a family was because you would attract so much. Um, it was so much the wrong thing to be, you know, it was the wrong thing. [00:18:30] It just wasn't acceptable, you know? And we had a whole batch of Catholic uncles and aunties, and Neil was the only gay son, you know, Um, so just, you know, it was a big deal. Although Neil was fearless about it and didn't give a damn, obviously, But I know that my father and mother, even though they were immediately accepting of Neil and and loving, they were afraid for him. You know, they could They [00:19:00] were afraid for what it meant for Neil and to move out into society, all the abuse. He would attract all the discrimination he would attract how he they feared for his ability to earn a living. You know, that was always uppermost in their minds as kind of working class parents. But how will you earn a living? Who's going to give you a job? You know, if you dress in a way that's going to attract, um, negative attention, criticism. So they were It was a very it [00:19:30] was a brave thing for him to do and a hard thing for him to do. But he didn't give a toss about that. There was never any kind of second thought. He was just gay, and he was gonna live a gay life. And people didn't like it, you know? But yeah. So and and of course, he did attract, um negative attention. You know, he was gay bashed. It was that he came out at the beginning of So in 1980. Yeah, he came out at the right time basically to [00:20:00] to participate in all that momentum that gathered in the next five years to to make you know, living a gay life legal. I could say that during our childhood, you know, we would always go and visit cousins You know, Neil was always on the outer with all the cousins because they were all boy boys. But there was one cousin that Neil actually got on with and my mother and my auntie would always remark, Wasn't it nice, Neil? And, you know, [00:20:30] my cousin cousin Get on really well. And of course, um and they did every time we met. But of course. Um, you know, I mean, I remember Neil saying in later years that obviously, you know, he was gay, but, you know, nobody would ever it was never spoken of. And this cousin has never lived a gay life was never out. Always kind of. I mean, who am I to say? Maybe he wasn't. But, [00:21:00] um, Neil was really good at and ruthless about outing people. Um, and he swears he always swore and declared that this particular cousin was gay. So you mentioned ruthless outing. So what? What that would take the form of? Well, basically everybody he met any straight man he met, he would sort of say, you know, he would always look for the You know, um, he was just [00:21:30] very He was He was angry and cynical and he would, um, he would ruthlessly sort of or out to anybody who was in conversation or hearing or me or whatever. He would sort of, you know, you know, identify people who he thought were sort of close or, you know, even just streaks of behaviour that, you know, Um, yeah, you know, he would pick up on as, um, being close sort of behaviour. You know, [00:22:00] that kind of thing? Yeah. He had zero tolerance for people who were living, um, sham lives. Or I think, because he had struggled, you know, he couldn't understand why people weren't as upfront, as honest about their mhm themselves as he was back in the early eighties. I mean, I, I get the kind of sense that, um people thought that if you were gay, you didn't necessarily have a positive future that there was [00:22:30] no good future ahead of you, was it? Oh, definitely. Yeah. And would you think that, and being kind of that ruthless outing and and being really visible was saying, actually, I'm proving you wrong. I'm not going to be what you think I'm going to be. Yeah, well, I I mean, I'm absolutely sure Neil was absolutely well, he had incredible determination to carve his own path and live his own life. And and that was part of going to London was to get out into the big wide world and join a community where [00:23:00] there were more fellow, um, you know, for more community to to live an open gay lifestyle and more opportunities. So you kind of pretty much had to leave the country to to live that life. That kind of went without saying, Um, but yeah, he he he wasn't going to let anybody, um, block him or cower his his His lifestyle. [00:23:30] Um, he had a lot. So, yeah, he was up against a lot in terms of the family and all the the negative judgments and the the the surety that, um, you know that it wasn't possible that you couldn't. But he just removed himself pretty much. And, you know, he stuck with his own, um, community and friends. And, you know, he he he didn't have much time for, you know, people who had closed minds and he wasn't [00:24:00] going to waste his time and let them kind of depress his energy by even just having a bar of it. So he he kept away. What about the relationship with With With Mom? Um, Well, Mom ended up, um, taking a very active part in the the law reform lobbies. She organised a petition. She joined a support group for parents of gay Children. She was totally in support of Neil. Neil got her on side very easily, very [00:24:30] quickly, and she was happy to do her bit. You know, she totally supported Neil. Yeah, absolutely. No question of it. Yeah, he educated her in about five minutes. You know about what was going on. And she very quickly saw that, um, he the best thing she could do for him was to, um, support his, you know, push for a positive. Um, um, change in the law and positive gay lifestyle for him and all his friends. She loved all of his friends, [00:25:00] you know, she met all of his friends. He was very gentle with her, but very kind of, um um, proactive at the same time, you know, wrote her into all his activities, and and and she felt like she was, um, doing something for him, you know, supporting. Yeah. Changing society to make it safer for her son, who she loved very much. Yeah, and my father didn't take any active role, but he totally supported [00:25:30] her and Neil as well. Although he you know, I guess as a male, he probably struggled more with his feelings of vulnerability around Neil going out there, you know? But I could say one thing when um this is indicative of the the kind of mentality that he was dealing with, and it was very hard to accept when the news came through a few years later that Neil died of AIDS. I, um I went down to the West Coast [00:26:00] to, um, to visit my grandparents, and my grandmother was still alive. And I've got an uncle that I'm very close to. And, um, I remember a comment that my uncle made that, um, you know about Neil dying? He said, Well, I could have seen that coming. So basically, the attitude was OK, we'll stand back and watch Neil be gay. But there's only one way this road leads, and that's to [00:26:30] hell in a hand basket, you know, so nobody ever believed in him or his push for a gay positive gay lifestyle. It was all kind of doom or gloom. Um, and I remember turning on this uncle and giving him a real ear full, you know? But I see now that that's that mentality, and you couldn't you know, it was too late to change for those people. Um, maybe there were uncles and aunties out there that were more positive, but [00:27:00] I don't think so. So, um so, yeah, he fought, you know, he fought a hard fight for what he believed in, and he he secured it. I mean, were there many kind of openly gay or rainbow people on the West Coast? Oh, no, no, no, never. I probably still to this day. I mean, I don't know, I haven't kind of looked at that, but I would say when I mean, I go down there once a year and I never see any. [00:27:30] Um, no, it's very, but I mean, probably if I looked in the woman's health, you know, collective and all that. I mean, there are those places and there probably are support groups, but it's not. It's a very macho. Um, yeah. No, no. There's no opening of ideas there, really. It would be a hard life, and I would say that people would move out as soon as they could. Yeah, you mentioned earlier about the street flat that comes up quite a bit in terms of the kind [00:28:00] of activism around homosexual law reform. Can you tell me, um, who was in it and and how it kind of came about? I couldn't really say how it came about because I was deeply into my OE at that time. But, um, it was where the, um the Wellington Girls College is now on that corner of Mul grave. And so there's now a courtyard. In fact, I was there last week with my daughter. Um, it was a two story place, and there was, um all I know is going there for dinners and things like that. There were, I think [00:28:30] the main stays were Neil and John and Shane. Neil Anderson might have lived there at that stage. Um, and lots of other people coming and going. And John Lusk and Shane Town. Yeah, and they were. And then when Neil moved here, they were always over here. So it was always kind of like dinner over there, or dinner over here. Um, and of course, things are settled down by the time I came back. But I, I remember Neil talking about, um because [00:29:00] when, um, I was overseas, I used to We used to speak once a week on the phone, and then he was always heavily involved with, um, you know, protests and banners and graphics and, you know, posters and and things like that. So I I gather that there was a kind of a hot bed of, um, forming of sort of protest and lots of plans and strategies and that going on. And I think most of the guys there were also involved in the, um, [00:29:30] the Gay Task Force and and the gay Helpline. They did there once a week on the gay helpline. Yeah. So, um, but it was a great, great place with a with a great atmosphere. You know, everybody was always very, um, happy and active and lots of fun and lots of friendliness. A nice, warm atmosphere, you know, of of just, um Yeah, just positive living. And yeah, it was great. [00:30:00] And I guess they were on the cusp of actually changing society, weren't they? I mean, you know, for for for decades, people had been kind of trying to get law reform in terms of the homosexuality. And and now it was kind of happening. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. You'd have a better idea of whether they knew that it was going to succeed. Um, possibly they knew. I mean, possibly, I think with the early eighties, with the changes, there was that sense of Well, the time is now. And, [00:30:30] um, it was OK to be out and proud, because I remember meeting Neil down the street and he would be I'd see him at James Smith. I'd be on a bus and I'd see him at James Smith's, um, bus stop, and he'd be there with his boyfriend, Rob. Um, can't remember his name. And, you know, he they'd have earrings and shorts and blonde hair and they'd be kissing, and and they were just at Jane Smith's bus stop. So and, you know, they weren't being, you know, they were very out [00:31:00] and very proud, and it was pretty much OK. Whereas it never had been before. You know, they weren't being arrested. They weren't being abused, you know, by passers by um they were out and proud and doing it for show like to make a point and kind of getting away with it, you know, And I don't think that had happened before, and that, to me, was a thermometer of the times that, you know, Yeah, it's OK. [00:31:30] You know, like, people can't do anything about that now. And these guys are taking their place and making their stand, and they don't care. Um, they're not going away. So, yeah, there would have been that sense. I mean, I came after I came home after their law had been changed, but it must have been I remember, Yeah, getting a sense from Neil that they were very caught up in the the thrill and the change and the momentum of, [00:32:00] um, just making it happen. Really. There was never any doubt that they were gonna, you know, make it happen. Like they weren't going back into the closet, you know, they weren't going to live closeted lives. And it didn't matter what people thought, and they didn't care what people thought, and they would take the consequences. But, um, things had changed. Yeah, Rob is that Rob Lake [00:32:30] Rob lake. Yeah. One of the things that did happen, of course, was the the gay bashings. Can you tell me about that? Yeah, well, I think I was here at that time. Yeah, I remember Neil. Um, it was at the railway tavern, and it was at a It was at a gay disco. He didn't. Didn't you know? Neil would never go near straight bars or anywhere like that. They were at a gay disco in the railway tavern. And, um, I think he was on the dance floor, and somebody just came up and bottled him. [00:33:00] That's the way I recall it. And, um, yeah, Neil went off to A and E and was pretty angry about it, and, um, I can't remember. I think he went to the police. He would have gone to the police, you know, it's against the law. And, um yeah, so I think that happened twice. Yeah, and I remember him coming home, and, um, yeah, being pretty pissed off about it, Really, he was just pissed off about it. Yeah, You know, um, that [00:33:30] that it happened in a place that was meant to be safe for him, you know? And that these people were still out there. Yeah. So can you recall how the police reacted to to these gay bashings? Not in any detail. I just remember Neil, um, making a complaint to the police, but not really expecting anything to happen, and nothing did happen. But [00:34:00] I can't recall, um, you know whether an interview took place and how that would have gone. Yeah. I can't remember if police keep their records from that kind of thing. Yeah, so, no, I can't really give you much detail on that, But I, I certainly don't recall any, um, any satisfaction, you know, any visits from police, you know, to the house to question Neil. And you know, any solution any any body being caught or [00:34:30] no charges were pressed, that's for sure. I know that. But then they did do something themselves in terms of doing the self-defence workshops. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Neil's response was, um I think I think for Neil in terms of just making going down to the police and making a complaint was, um, his protest, you know, because I don't think that that probably never happened before. I can't you know. So that was his one of his responses [00:35:00] and also to form the, um, the self defence Group. Yeah. And, um and, yeah, go through it that way. Yeah. I just remember Neil being pretty, um, charged up and involved about that, that, you know, gay men had to Yeah, they had to protect themselves because there was no kind of police response. And this happened in a gay in a gay disco in a gay bar. And, um, you know, obviously they were on their own and, um, needed to defend themselves. [00:35:30] So, you know, let's just do it. There's a wonderful photo of, um of Neil. I think it's the pink triangle where he's got boxing gloves on black eye, kind of referencing the Yeah, that was taken here in the lounge. Yeah. Yeah. David Hiley took that photo. Yeah, I've got a negative of it somewhere. It's my intention to get it framed and put it up somewhere. Yeah, that's right. That was just, you know, highlighting the the the incidence of gay bashing in general [00:36:00] and sort of a call to yeah, to defend, defend yourselves. You know, the necessity for self defence and to take those steps to learn self defence and to be prepared to put it into practise, you know, because there was no defence. Really? And that, um, you know, you could get gay bashed at any time. And, um, I've mentioned the Pink triangle. What was the pink triangle? Um, as far as I understand [00:36:30] it, it was the the the national magazine of Sort of, the gay men's liberation movement. So very heavily covering the, um, the events around, um, law reform activities and political events, but also social. You know, lots of, um, you know, photos from discos and, you know, parties and things like that. And also, um, kind of welfare, you know, welfare focus, [00:37:00] um, and general interest. Yeah. And it was, um Yeah, I think Neil did the did. Did all the graphics for that, You know, the kind of not the type setting. That's the print job. Maybe he did letter setting and all that kind of stuff. Maybe he did most of that graphic design, but I remember David Henley being the photographer and in charge of publishing. I think so. Yeah. I think it was a monthly magazine. Well, let's talk about Neil's graphic design. And, um So he [00:37:30] was doing what? Posters and design work for the gay task force for the gay task force for the, um, for the rallies. You know, the posters for the rallies? Um, yeah. And he always had a standard sort of screen print approach. Yeah, Um, quite political. Quite simple. Yeah, um, you know, um, the Lombard signs. And he was fond of that phrase. God bless us, Nelly Queens, which I recall him saying, came out of the [00:38:00] Stonewall riots when the police were arresting and handcuffing the, um, the you know, the bar patrons they would call out. God bless us, Nelly Queens. And but I'm not sure that, you know, um, yeah, so he was just heavily involved. Plus doing his portfolio work for his graphic design, the bachelor of graphic design at me. He had quite a heavy workload there, and, um, yeah, but yeah, [00:38:30] a lot of, um, graphic stuff was a posters for the advertising, the rallies and the the fundraising dances and the, um yeah, the task posters. And it's great to see you've got some on the walls. It's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah, I just got them, um, reframed because they'd been in the same frame for 30 years and was starting to get a bit mouldy and broken. Um, they did have a big border around them, which made [00:39:00] them a lot bigger and a lot more sort of graphic. So it's strange to see them in sort of such a short frame, but yeah, they're very colourful and very yeah, And we we we use the screen print for his AIDS quilt. So reproduced, um and I've got I've got the designs on the top cupboard somewhere the actual cut out stencils that are used. Yeah, it would have been great to see him move into the digital age and what he'd be doing now, you know? But that was all hand cut stencils and screen prints, [00:39:30] which is a good way to go as well. So AIDS was happening at the same time as law reform in New Zealand very early days. Was Neil aware? I mean, did he talk to you about kind of HIV aids? He came the first. The first discussion I had with him was here in this lounge. We had a record player over there in the corner. It was a Sunday afternoon. It would have been sort of early 80 [00:40:00] five. And I remember him putting a record on and talking about this gay cancer that they had discovered and was they were starting to hear about from San Francisco or New York. And he was totally freaked out about it and remained totally freaked about it until the day he died. Um, 56 years later, from the first, he was absolutely horrified. And [00:40:30] and And that was the story. The line we were hearing. There wasn't much information. The only information at that time, as I recall, could be recalling wrong. But was this a sky cancer? And nobody knows what it's about, you know? And he was talking talk about monkey viruses or, I don't know, nobody knew much information. But a lot of, um, gay men were dying. It was like a plague. And it was just totally freaky. And Neil was totally freaked out from the beginning. Um, and there being no [00:41:00] cure and I I remember that he just couldn't tolerate hearing anything about it. Um, and I'd always say things like, Oh, don't be silly. Now it's, you know, it's like they'll find something and it's just something weird that's happening over there. And it's never, you know, there was no no awareness or inkling that it would affect our lives. You know, it was like something one of those weird things that was happening in Angola. Or, you know, there was no we [00:41:30] had no idea and no inkling that it would ever affect us or the people we knew. It was just unthinkable. Um, and I would always, you know, come back with that, um And then So Neil got on with his life, and it didn't start to like, I don't recall Wellington friends dying until about 19. Maybe 87 88. You know, um, people [00:42:00] started dying, and then it got pretty sort of, you know, scary. Oh, it was It was horrible to find these acquaintances and, you know, um, in the Circle and Wellington Circle, dying people like, um, I can't quite remember his name. But the art, the hairdresser and the guy, um, yeah, just lots of people. Um, and so, Yeah, I remember Neil. Neil came home from London. [00:42:30] Neil went to left this house and went to London in about 1986 or seven went to London. He came to visit a year and a half later and he had, um he had cold sores in the back of his throat and they wouldn't go away and looking back. I, I can recall now that he was really paranoid about having AIDS. Then this was 1987. Um and I remember him being at my parents' house and, um, he just [00:43:00] these really painful cold sores in the back of his throat that wouldn't go away. And he got admitted to hospital Wellington Hospital. And, um, I remember going to visit him, and we were he was in isolation, and none of us could figure out why he was in isolation and Neil was spitting tax and saying, Oh, they've put me in isolation because I'm gay because, you know, they think I've got AIDS just because I'm gay. They think I've got AIDS and they've put me in isolation and he was really angry about it, and we all had to go up to go and see him. [00:43:30] And then they discharged him a couple of days later and said there was nothing. They gave him strong antibiotics and said there was nothing they could do. Um, so obviously, they, um, thought he was he he had aids the AIDS virus and had put him in isolation. And I remember really talking Neil out of that thinking. Yeah, they just, you know, they're just being homophobic and being crazy. Just just because you're gay, man, and they've got you in isolation. Um, [00:44:00] and then, um, he went back to London. He was really paranoid about the fact that he'd been sick. Um, And then a year later, I got the phone call from my sister. Uh, and Neil had a dream. He had a dream. When he went before he went back to London, he had a dream that, um he saw my father. My father was dying of cancer at the time. Neil had come home to see my dad, [00:44:30] and he had a dream that, um they were both in hospital. And Neil and Neil was in one bed dying, and my father was in the other bed dying. And this dream totally freaked Neil out. And I just remember being with him at the back of Alston, this horrible, bleak place where you know, he'd spent some of his 10 years, Um, saying, Oh, Neil, you know, it's just a dream. Don't be crazy. There's nothing wrong with you. You're fine. You know, Just go. He was going back to London to check into that [00:45:00] Terrence Higgins sort of hospital place. Um, he was he was afraid, and I was doing my best to talk him out out of it. And so he went off back to London. I was angry at him for sort of leaving me with, you know, Dad dying and just getting off back to his great lifestyle in London. And, um yeah, so I was angry with him and he left. And then, um you know, of course, I went over there. And But anyhow, I got a phone call a year later saying, um, it was my sister [00:45:30] who was also in London at the time, saying Neil's been admitted to hospital, and I thought, Wow, that's weird. And I immediately thought motorbike accident or car accident? Um, they say if you can get over here in 24 hours, you'll see him alive again. And I thought must have must have been in an accident. And I said, What's wrong? You know what What are they talking about? She said he's got AIDS, and I'm like, Oh, you know, I just couldn't you know, it was like, [00:46:00] couldn't comprehend it, really? So I sort of staggered down to a travel agent to try to get a ticket over. And my mother and I went over there and it was like two days, three days before you could get there and every hour that ticked away. You know, we had six hours in Singapore and it was just horrible. And, um, we got to the hospital, he's in hospital and we got there. And somehow I just remember running through the ward and finally [00:46:30] getting to his bed and he looked the picture of health. Um, David was there. It was the first time I met David. Oh, no, it wasn't the first time I'd met him here before. And, um, he was waiting for me. He had his last words to say to me he had this oxygen mask on and he had to. I couldn't. So I went right up to his ear and while he spoke something in my ear and he said, Um, he said something and I said, No I didn't get it. Can you? You know, say it again. And he said [00:47:00] he said it again, and I'm like, because he couldn't, you know, he was on oxygen and he said it again. And I'm like, Oh, fuck, I didn't get it. I'm gonna have to ask him to say it again. And he I said, Neil, I didn't get it. Can you tell me again, What is your What is that? And Neil said it again, and I didn't get it. And I said, No. I'm sorry, Neil. You know, like, I didn't get it. Can you tell me? And he goes, Oh, fuck. You know, fuck off. You know, [00:47:30] for fuck's sake and put the mask back on and slipped into unconsciousness. And he died an hour later, so I never I never understood. We were always very close. And I knew that one of the things that he he knew he was dying for three days. You know, David said he just turned his face against the wall and, you know, and that was it. And called for the priest, funnily enough. So it was the old Irish Catholic, you know, when [00:48:00] it came down to it. He he went back to, you know, having a faith, some faith in his God, And, um he would have been thinking of me and mum, and he would have been thinking of how I was gonna go on. You know, it's like because we were close and he would have thought, How's Jane gonna kind of, you know as well as, of course, and his mum. How is she gonna get on without me? You know, So he would have had something to [00:48:30] say. But I, I guess I pretty much know what it would have been. Um, so yeah. So it was very quick. Neil just had the flu. A year after the cold sores in the back of the throat, he was declining. He was a bit sickly, you know, he'd gone off to the carnival in Venice and Venice was to feed a couple of weeks before the month before. He wasn't there. He had a flu, but he got the flu, went home from work, got pneumonia. That was on the Friday, [00:49:00] got pneumonia on the first day. Got the test done, told you he was HIV positive pneumonia. Three days, four days later, he died, so it was very, very quick. He didn't have that awful drawn out so really, really sick process, which we were all grateful for. So so was it because, um, there weren't, uh, HIV tests at the time? [00:49:30] No. He could have got the test. He refused. He didn't want to know. He couldn't have handled a positive result. And I suspect that possibly a lot of people like him. There was the test available. There was the the the centre up in, um, main street in Newtown. I can't remember what it was called. You could go and get free tests there from pretty early days, but he wouldn't. He was too afraid to get the test. I suspect maybe he had Maybe he'd had [00:50:00] and early, you know, relationship that was vulnerable. I suspect that maybe he had, you know, like in those very early days in street, I remember hearing, um, that he'd had a relationship with an American man, which, you know, would have made him very, very vulnerable, at least to his fears. You know, his mental fears, Um, and that would have been a lot early, So he was just too afraid [00:50:30] the test was freely available and people, you know, men very encouraged to come and take it. But he just was too afraid of the result and knew that he he didn't want to face having a positive result if he was. And II. I guess the prognosis in those early days wasn't it was It was terminal up until quite a while after Neil died. I think so. He died in 1990. It was possibly, um, [00:51:00] 97 98 before you started to hear of drugs that could at least keep it in a bay. Yeah, and we were actually recording this interview on the ninth of April, and he died on the seventh of April 1990. So that's 26 years ago on Thursday, I think, Which seems an incredibly long time ago. But it doesn't. In other words, it doesn't. [00:51:30] Yes, He died in London in Islington Hospital, and we, um, and was cremated at Golders Green Crematorium. We had a little ceremony there and his ashes were scattered in Mount, which was an area he loved. One of the ways of remembering, um, and celebrating is through the, uh, New Zealand AIDS memorial quilt. Can you tell me how his quilt panel came about? Um, [00:52:00] I think it was the momentum of Kerry and his great mates, Kerry and Steve Kerry. Yeah. And, um, and Bailey. Watson Bailey was a Wellington cinematographer who lived up the road here in Glenmore Street. Um, yeah, I. I was kind of David. David came home, his partner came home with me here to this house, and David stayed the first year after Neil's death. He stayed in Wellington here, Um, and I remember feeling pretty sort of like shocked [00:52:30] and, you know, wasn't that sort of aware of what was going on? But I remember his friend's cat hall, his great friend Kat Hall and Sally Hunter and Bailey and Kerry and for getting the momentum together to make the AIDS quilt. And I remember going to a house in Mount Victoria, Oriental Bay. I can't remember the name of the woman there, Megan, and having sewing bees there and those guys getting the photos together and [00:53:00] and, um, getting during the organisation and me and Dave just turning up and doing some quilting. This photo here, um, that would have been taken at it was taken at Saint Patrick's primary school. I think not. So what was it like? Um, making the panel? Yeah, it was, um it was It was great. It was kind of it was nice to be involved in a [00:53:30] kind of communal, warm, tactile, memorialish type activity. Yeah, Um, I still remember. It was early after Neil died, I think when we made the quilt and I still still remember just being in a state of kind of disbelief and shock that we were doing this, you know, um, so I don't kind of remember it as a pleasant experience for me. Um, [00:54:00] you know, just it's kind of in your face, really, That this is a memorial activity and that Neil's dead, you know? But, um, it was it was nice. And I'm really I'm really glad that we did it and that the quilt is now something that travels and is seen and as, um, as a memorial. Yeah, I think it was a great idea for people. I remember going down to a a laying out in, um botanical gardens [00:54:30] in the early nineties and going to the memorial ceremonies that were held candle lit vigils Yeah. Some of those candlelight vigils in Wellington. The beacons of hope looked amazing. Yeah, they were beautiful. Yeah, I remember one down on the waterfront, I think another one at Saint Mary's of the Angels, where people would call out the names of people who died, won a parliament. Yeah, [00:55:00] they were beautiful. Very atmospheric. I think I remember a march down Willow Street, too. Yeah. So how did the family, um, respond to Neil's death? Um oh, my mother for my mother, it was the second death in two years. She'd lost her husband, and then she lost Neil. It was devastating for her. Um, absolutely devastating for her. Um, [00:55:30] it was devastating. Yeah, it was just devastating. He was always, you know, like Neil was a very charismatic, sort of forthright, strong, happy, positive individual. Um, I'm very aware of myself of, um how much my kids kind of miss out by not having them in their lives. You know, being the kind of the, um, uncle benefactor that he would have been, you know, in the hands on sort of great sort of, [00:56:00] you know, person to have in their lives. Um, the wider family. Hm. kind of shocked. But as I said by the comment made by my uncle, you know, not surprised. There's only one way his lifestyle could lead, you know, Um, so that was pretty heavy. It was heavy. It was heavy. His his scattering of ashes was just dive I cat, [00:56:30] his friend and my mother. I think, um, I remember. Maybe on the first anniversary, putting a a notice. Kind of kind of a, uh, what would you call it? A provocative notice. This not Memoriam. And the grave Greymouth Evening star. Um, I don't know. I suppose I just felt angry at my family's response, which was kind of [00:57:00] Oh, you know, there there wasn't anything they could do. I had some, you know, some some of my cousins. Everybody got that. It was a tragedy. You know? Everybody loved Neil when you say provocative. What? What was provocative? I think I put a death note at memorial notice in saying kissing doesn't kill Ignorance does. And Memorial of Neil Costello. [00:57:30] So, in the usual way. You know Costello, Neil. So it would have attracted the attention of one. Yeah, it was quite hard after my, um, brother's death. and, you know, like, of course, you had a life insurance policy. He signed up for his work at his graphic design agency in London and signed away a life insurance policy for £100,000. And three months later, he [00:58:00] was dead. And, of course, they cashed in on this, um, life insurance policy. So the family got £300,000. And, of course, it all went to my mother. And I knew that that wasn't what Neil would have wanted. So I fought my mother for that money. I fought my family to get a legacy that looked like what it would look like if Neil had been able to make [00:58:30] a will, which meant that was the main beneficiary, you know, because that's what he would have wanted. And that's what to get what straight people got. So that was a hard thing to do, and I won. I got it. Of course. Um, you know, my mother got her share and Neil married, um, a lesbian woman in London, so of course she got her share. Um, and then my three sisters got you know, we got a very [00:59:00] small share. We got £1000 each, I think. But as I wanted I, I was only doing I felt it was my obligation to do what Neil would have wanted. So David ended up getting the what part? What? What? We agreed with the partnership. My mother was very unhappy about that. You know, she thought, um, that I just wanted the money for myself and David to run off and have a great [00:59:30] lifestyle in Paris or somewhere. I never got any of that. I never got that money went to David and I never got one cent of it, you know, And that wasn't the deal, but I had to fight for that. My mother died 10 years later. And when I look back now, from the perspective of a of a 58 year old woman, I wondered to myself, you know, was that the right thing to do? I mean, I. I was kind of in shock, you know, [01:00:00] But I very clearly had some of the same fight with my own issues that Neil did. And, um, that for me, was part of taking the fight. You know, gay rights, you know, equal rights under the law. If Neil was straight. That wouldn't have happened. The money would have gone to his partner, but because he wasn't he was treated like a child. And the money went to his parent. Um, [01:00:30] so, um, you know, I wonder whether that was the right thing to do, Whether I would have done that now, like, hurt my mother in that way cause such pain to the family. But, um, I think I did the right thing. I think I did. Maybe I didn't. At the time, I definitely thought I was doing the right thing. But, um, yeah, so things like that, you know, issues like that, you know, still continuing the fight on Neil's behalf in the aftermath of [01:01:00] his death, you know? Um, yeah, just looking at the, um the panel now for Neil and, um yeah, it just reminds me of how how people's energy still riffles after they after they depart. Um, both in, um, you know, really hard ways, but also, um, really positive ways. I mean, I just think it's wonderful to be able to celebrate him 26 years later and [01:01:30] and have his energy kind of bring us together and have his energy show. Um, your Children, You know, um, what a wonderful guy he was as well. Absolutely. Yeah, Absolutely. Well, I think the best thing I can say is my son there. Yeah, he's 12 today. He, um, like yesterday. He, um he had a dress up day at school. You know, they had this crazy costume day. So, [01:02:00] Reggie, Reggie loves to dress up in dresses, and he's got a green tutu that he likes. And I work with long hair that he made. And so Reggie can go to school, and he can. I said to him, What are you gonna wear for dress up at school? He says, I'm wearing my tutu and my wig so he can go to his primary school class and he can dress in his tutu and work if he wants. And nobody says this thing, you know? Well, do they say things, Richie? They might mightn't they, [01:02:30] but he doesn't. They know they're not allowed to say things, and he doesn't care. You don't care, do you, Reg? Well, like, sometimes I'll say sometimes they'll say that I'm like a girl, but I don't care. Why don't you care? Because I don't know, because you just don't care. I'm a boy because you're a boy and boys are allowed to be boys and do whatever they like. [01:03:00] Hey, yeah. So it's a It's a different world, thanks to Neil and all his friends. And, um, it's just great that I think Reggie must have. Obviously, he's got Neil looking after him, and he's got some of that strength and permission. He's living a different life than what, Neil, You know, Neil could never wear a dress to school, you know, on Saint Patrick's Day, he wore his tutu to the Irish club, [01:03:30] looked beautiful. Some people had a bit of a you know, some of the boys were looking at him a bit strange. But when this little girl came up to him, the seven year old and said, Snap, we're in the same clothes. Yeah, And you know, if boys want to wear dresses, they can. If girls wanna wear boy's clothes, they can know it's a free world. Anybody that says anything about [01:04:00] it. What are you doing? Um, you I don't know. Go and punch them in the nose. Yeah, aye. Telling me they need to overhaul their attitudes. They need to look at their attitudes. Get out of that box.

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TITLE: Opening of Out in the Park (2016)
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VOICES: Adrienne Girling; Des Smith; Elizabeth Kerekere; Fran Wilde; John Jolliff; Justin Lester; Karen Harris; Kassie Hartendorp; Kevin Haunui; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; 2010s; Adrienne Girling; Aotearoa New Zealand; Deeza Star; Des Smith; Don Franks; Elaine Lethbridge; Elizabeth Kerekere; Fran Wilde; Grant Robertson; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); James Heslop; Jan Logie; John Jolliff; Justin Lester; Karen Harris; Kevin Haunui; Lesbian and Gay Fair; Member of Parliament; Newtown School; Out Wellington Inc.; Out in the Park (Wellington); Out in the Square (Wellington); Out in the carPark (Wellington); Parliament buildings; Polly Filla; Porleen Simmonds; Pride; Sue Dunlop; Topp Twins; Tīwhanawhana; Waitangi Park; Wellington; cis male; homosexual law reform; marriage; marriage equality; oppression; police; pride; queer; rugby; sport; visibility
DATE: 12 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Waitangi Park, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the opening of Out in the Park, held in Waitangi Park, Wellington on Saturday 12 March 2016.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Oh, good enough. The oh. Hm. And, uh, for you? Yeah. [00:00:30] Hi. [00:01:00] You don't know? Thank you. Yeah. [00:01:30] Calendar. I [00:02:00] ain't going back. Yes, Mr You see how I kicked out [00:02:30] then got the No. You like that? You say hello. Yeah, [00:03:00] OK. No. Then I go to I go to I go to right [00:03:30] that Good morning. And welcome to out in the park 2016. We are very pleased to be here for the opening of such a glorious occasion. My husband and I are thrilled. We're just chuffed as to be here. Philip. Sorry he's late. He's just circling the block looking for a park. Thank you [00:04:00] to for such a lovely welcome. We're so chuffed to be here for the 30th anniversary of what has been called the gay and lesbian fair out in the square the GL TB, ITG plus alphabet. So square fair. And for such an auspicious occasion, it deserves no suspicious opening. After all, I am the [00:04:30] queen Darling, not just a queen, darling. Who's queen Me now we're kicking off today with some wonderful words from our guests. We've got Deputy Mayor Justin Lester, the Honourable I mean, are you still honourable after you've left Parliament. I'm not sure if you're more honourable after you've left Parliament. But we've got the fabulous Fran Wild, the wonderful chaps who first started the Fair Des [00:05:00] and John and the co chairs of Wellington Inc. The organising body of out in the park. Adrian Girling and Karen Harris will be here as well. So without further ado, I would like to introduce you to the deputy Mayor. He must be just absolutely chuffed to meet me. Please welcome to the stage Deputy Mayor Justin Lester. Oh [00:05:30] Oh, very nice to my And it is a great pleasure to meet you today. It's got a a real highlight of my week. Now, I just want to welcome you on behalf of Wellington City, and you're a core component of what makes this city so vibrant and great. I was talking earlier with Jan Loy and Grant Robertson about growing [00:06:00] up in a provincial town and just how different it was through our own, you know, uh, early years, formative years and teenage years and then coming to Wellington a tolerant, inclusive and very generous community. And it's great that Wellington has embraced Pride Week and I want to acknowledge, uh, des and John the great work they did 30 years ago and that Karen and Adrian are continuing the strong tradition today. Also, I want to acknowledge Fran Wilde and her friends over here. We were chatting earlier for the great work [00:06:30] she did around homosexual law reform here in the city 30 years ago, and Wellington has had a chequered past in the past. But we've always led. We've led from the front, and we've dragged New Zealand, sometimes kicking and screaming right and behind to make sure that there's awareness around LGBT Q i rights and visibility. I remember growing up, and it's easy for me to say, and I'm somewhat ashamed to say no. I was a heterosexual white male, and yet, growing up in a provincial [00:07:00] town in New Zealand, I still felt oppressed because I wasn't a rugby playing beer swilling meat head to be fair. So for for me to to feel oppressed, I can only imagine what it was like for many in the LGBT community growing up and many friends of mine who sometimes didn't make it all the way through. Uh, I'm deeply saddened by that fact. So in Wellington, we've got a real focus on awareness, a real focus on visibility. We want to make sure that, uh, we're welcoming and embracing, [00:07:30] loving and supportive have a great fear today. And it's an honour to be here. Thank you. You thank you. Wellington's Deputy Mayor Justin Lester, and thank the Wellington City Council for the funding and all the fabulous support that they've given us. Uh, they are one of our main sponsors here today for out in the park. Our next guest is one of the prime [00:08:00] movers behind the homosexual law reform. In 1986 that was groundbreaking legislation passed primarily so that people could come to the Queer Fair. Please welcome Fran Wilde. No greetings to you all. This is great. We are celebrating Wellington and its diversity [00:08:30] and the LGBTI community and the fact that New Zealand has gradually allowed all of us to be as different as we want to be. Still a way to go. But, um, we've come a long way. I'm not sure why. 30 years was selected for a celebration of, um, gay law reform, but somebody told me the other day it was because people like me were in danger of dying out, and we wouldn't make 50 years. So I just I have to tell you, I do intend to make 50 years. Uh, [00:09:00] but I may not be able to walk up the steps then, um So look, um, I just want to today, uh, acknowledge all of the people who were involved 30 years ago. This fear, which sort of started 30 years ago to, um wouldn't have I mean, we just couldn't have done all the things we do now. We wouldn't have had openly gay MP S. We wouldn't have been able to have the celebrations of diversity and people just being themselves in all parts of [00:09:30] society. Uh, with a A at that stage. And frankly, it was a pretty grim time, particularly for, um, gay men, but also lesbians, because that, um, stereotyping and scapegoating was put on to the whole of the community and not just gay men. And I just want to thank all of you. A lot of you here today, um uh, would have been involved in that, and I particularly want to thank you for all you did. Um, I said at parliament the other day. One big shout out and I want to do it again was to the gay [00:10:00] men who came out during that campaign. They were criminals. And actually, they basically, um, put themselves at huge risk by coming out. Because if the bill hadn't succeeded, it would have been pretty awful for them, uh, living here in what would have been a pretty impressive society. So well done. All of you celebrate. And let's make New Zealand even better. [00:10:30] Thank you, Fran Wilde. Really? I mean it. All of us here say thank you very much. Now, next up, we've got the gentleman who first made all of this possible the founders of what has been called the gay and lesbian fair Out in the square, the GL BT IGGLMNOP alphabet soup. Queer Fair, Please welcome to the stage Des and John. [00:11:00] Yeah, my husband and I are my husband and I now it's absolutely wonderful to be able to say that today [00:11:30] it is remarkable because 30 years ago if we had done that, we would have ousted ourselves. We had been, uh, identifying ourselves as having a strong and wonderful relationship, and we would have attracted the eyes, no doubt of the New Zealand police and we were criminals and it was an interesting and difficult time. But we are no longer criminals, and that is wonderful. And it, thanks to so many people [00:12:00] to all of you here that we can stand up and be proud of who we are and get married, which is wonderful. But so many people did a lot of work, but it had relatively small beginnings. This younger man here was a prime mover and what has become out in the park, and he moved to help change laws. It was a fair for a fair law, so I'd better hand over to him over [00:12:30] to this. That OK 1986 does not seem that far away. For me, however, that was the time that I have to thank quite a lot of people. And it wasn't just the gay lesbian community. A lot of them were still closed, too frightened. There's a lot of other people, and that helped out and also helped me to be who I am now. But I'd just like to mention a few names. And also [00:13:00] I remember when I first organised that fair there was. I was working for a guy who had drivers and he had, uh, trucks. And what have you We had to get a lot of stuff over to Newtown School Hall. OK? He lent a driver and his wife, and they both came along. The kids are all coming out of the school, and it was just wonderful, rare reaction. They were pointing at this heterosexual couple and saying, Look, look, he's gay. Oh, she's a lesbian. And and this was so funny to hear [00:13:30] from these young kids in, uh 1986. So anyway, we went on and it was, um, Pauline Simmons, James Halo and myself. We got that affair going, and then the next year, uh, they weren't interested, so I started on my own. Then I met this wonderful man and away we went and, you know, you don't know where help was coming from. And I remember I got a call from Turners and Growers. There's a guy there said, Look, we've got some fruit and vegetables for you. So, [00:14:00] out of that little burin, we went fruit and vegetables. The guy couldn't give us enough. We just piled them into that car and it stuck. I don't know for how long afterwards lettuces and cabbages and God knows what. But this is where the help came. And I'd just like to acknowledge some of these other people. Elaine Neb Bridge. She was the one that fought our battle. Newtown school. Uh, Newtown school itself did not want us. They did not want queers on their ground with all those kids around. She fought [00:14:30] for us to get that hall, and that was the first fear. And she continued to fight to make sure that we had that fear there for 10 years. So it was Eileen Lab Bridge. Don Franks. He was a guy who? A musician. He played at nearly all those fears. And he, uh, unfortunately, lost his wife last year, which is very sad. And but Don Franks was another person I'd just like to mention at this stage. There was a heap of other people and, [00:15:00] uh, so made a few notes and Oh, yeah, uh, the people in the gay community that helped people like Sue Dunlop. She's no longer with us, but she was marvellous. She was there, and she helped on so many occasions and gave her time for nothing. So these people should be acknowledged and it's a good chance now to do that. Uh, people like I think is here today we are, [00:15:30] But also that was all part. We also had the top twins at one stage. Great. They gave their time for nothing. I remember we had these hats with rainbow feathers and and they saw us there, and they kept referring to us as the Flamingo Brothers. But, uh, we're not that, are we? Anyway, um, right. But I'd just like to say that this continuation and what we're doing and it's very moving to see such a huge crowd [00:16:00] and I just think the visibility is so important. And I'd just like to say everyone, if you all can yell out now we are proud to be here and support the OK, let's hear that. Yes, great. That's good. And have a great time. OK, Uh [00:16:30] thank you, Des and John and thank you to all the lovely people who have given their time over the 30 years to bring us to where we are here today. And it therefore gives me great pleasure to introduce the co chairs of Wellington incorporated the organising body of out in the park. Please welcome Adrian Girling and Karen Harris. [00:17:00] This is really overwhelming. There's a huge crowd. We just want to welcome you here today. Um, just amazing to hear Dez speak about the fair 30 years ago and the struggle that it was to put that on. And now look at us. This is amazing. Um, we've just had our second Wellington Pride parade [00:17:30] Just come through that most of you are in. Um, and we were so happy for to have that turn out. Um, so we just want you to have this an amazing day. Um, there's stalls around there's food, um, and just loads of entertainment all day long here on the stage. And I'll let Karen, um yeah, and just to add, obviously, have a fantastic day. We really want to thank the volunteers and the committee that [00:18:00] have helped make this happen, who work really hard all year to put this event on. Um, so we've got our committee who are around and in HQ all day. If you want to come and see us at all and, um loads volunteers who've turned out at six o'clock this morning to help us get everything set up for today. So we're really looking forward to having you around with as a says, we've got entertainment running. Our headliners are on later on this afternoon. So please, then join us for the day and let us have a fabulous time. So thank you so much for coming out this morning. [00:18:30] Thank you. Karen and Adrian next up, we've got marvellous. They're going to continue with some beautifully sung. And after that, my beautiful sister Queen Poly filler Will will take over to start us in what is going to be seven hours of non stop entertainment. So we do hope that you can make yourselves comfortable here today. [00:19:00] We've got some fabulous entertainment coming up. We've got great stalls. We've got great people to talk to. Please make yourselves at home. And please, for now, please welcome back to in his life. [00:19:30] Yeah, my [00:20:00] like, Yeah. I mean and yeah, and then [00:20:30] yeah, And it do. Yeah, to [00:21:00] Are you doing? But not very right. Thank you. Thank [00:21:30] you. I see. What? Yeah, Free. [00:22:00] Yeah. Then I can get away in my side. I them that know him. OK, [00:22:30] in my mind Come. Really me, [00:23:00] my son I can get I did, you know. I know. No, no, Ma, [00:23:30] no Came back. I know. I think I see. I see some other too fun of the crap. I And then we want you to come up for our last play out. [00:24:00] Come on, now. Yeah, the car here. Oh, [00:24:30] yeah. That bye in the money I can name, I don't mind DR see, [00:25:00] Please. All I know five back in wife there in my night on a dark hard [00:25:30] Yeah. No. Big, Big bye. Yeah, [00:26:00] OK.

IRN: 1011
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/pride_audio_collective_march_2016.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004441
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089735
TITLE: Group Programme (March 2016)- Pride Audio Collective
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Gareth Watkins; Pat McIntosh; Rowan Moulder
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Blue Note Bar; Christchurch; Harry Potter (book series); Pat McIntosh; Pride Audio Collective; Rowan Moulder; Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar; The Glamaphones; The Wellesley Club; Wellington; Wellington Access Radio; advice; archives; artist; arts; bars; bisexual; books; chaps; children; clothing; communication; community; conversation; depression; diversity; dream; family; fandom; film; gay; growing up; horse; identity; kissing; metatextuality; nerd; oral history; panic attack; parents; pridenz. com; queer; relationships; respect; role model; separation; teacher; women; youtube. com
DATE: 27 March 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm Gareth Watkins, and welcome along to the Pride Audio Collective. Um, it ran over five weekends in February and March, and we looked at, uh, recording interviews on location and then editing them. So there were six participants, and we recorded, um, outside in the studio and at people's homes. Um, and then we edited the material at Wellington Access Radio in Guney Street, and it was an opportunity for all the participants to record and edit short interviews. So you'll hear those short interviews today. [00:00:30] Um, but first, here are the participants. Hi, I'm Rowan. I am 23 years old. I'm queer and I'm a huge nerd. I came along to the audio workshops because it sounded really fun. I'm a film student at the moment, and I noticed that sometimes the sound I would have in my short films was not all that it could be. So I thought this was a skill that would be really helpful for me to learn, and honestly, [00:01:00] it's been a lot of fun. I think I might actually get more involved in podcasting and radio from now on, because it seems like such a really awesome world to be a part of Hi. I'm Jennifer. Um I heard about this through Rowan. Um, I'm 24. I am an artist, and I make YouTube videos. And I thought this would be a really great skill to have because, you know, I'm just starting out and stuff like that, So, Yeah, my name is Pat. Um, [00:01:30] the reason I wanted to come along and do this course was I'm heavily involved with the glamour phones and, uh, have been recording the choir and interested in actually starting to do a bit more around, um, podcasts and, um, archival history of of our community. Um, so have come along and had lots of fun enjoying, um, the art of a recording voice I'm making [00:02:00] the most of our diversity is one of the most significant issues facing both New Zealand and the world at the moment. And we all have to play a part. When I saw these, uh, classes as a way to express our diversity and help others learn more about our diverse communities in New Zealand, I couldn't not come along, so thank you. Thank you, Shelia. So for the first interview we did in week one, Pat and I went into the studio here at Access radio, and Pat interviewed me about a life changing event. [00:02:30] It was pretty out of the blue. They went away for a weekend. It was like Queen's birthday or something, and then came home and sat me down. And we're like, Guess what? Um, it was Yeah, but it was pretty out of the blue for most parties, except for one. my father had been thinking about this for a while, and so it was sort of sprung on the rest of us. So how did that make you feel Something come out of the blue like that huge life changing moment? [00:03:00] Yeah, it was really It was really difficult. I wasn't really sure how to process, because I never really experienced something sort of that kind of altering before, Um, particularly since, like after they told me other things started to change. So, like, there was, you know, who's gonna have the house? Who's going to be moving all that kind of stuff, which is a lot to take in in, like, about three days? Yeah, it all just started happening. Um, [00:03:30] yeah. So, like when it first had when I was first told, I tried to be very like OK, well, I understand. You know, this is, you know, your lives and need to do what's good for you. But then obviously alone, I'd be, like, breaking down because I had no idea what I was going to do. I had, you know, I just finished study. I wasn't sure of what was happening. I was looking for full time work, which was not happening. It was really Yeah, it was quite difficult. The ongoing ramifications of of being in in something like this, um, [00:04:00] involved in in a family and a parent separation. Um, there there were triggers that happened from it. And yeah, So after my mother moved out, my father and I were the only ones living in the house, and he would go away every weekend, um, to be with his new partner, and so I'd be it would just be me and the cats in the house. Um, and I started developing panic attacks because, you know, this is everything suddenly changing, [00:04:30] So, yeah, it was very difficult. For a while there, I got to the point I was having, like, a panic attack every night on my own. Not a fun time. And this is the first time you've ever had something like a panic attack. Um, yeah, to that extent, Like I've had, um, depression for a wee while. Um, it's, like a family issue, like other members of my family have had it. But this was, like, the worst instance of this kind of thing happening. And I've never really had, like, full blown panic attacks before, which [00:05:00] was an intense time. Yeah. Is it? Is this, um, affected you now, as in how you see relationships, or how do you sort of see, um, it's continuing on in your in your life. It's it's obviously affected. How you Yeah, I, um I see the more like [00:05:30] they are things that will evolve, um, quite often in ways you won't expect. So I am. I feel like I'm maybe occasionally a bit more like prepped for that where I'm like, OK, things could happen. You kind of need to be a bit more like I don't know, like, more sort of self aware of what's occurring rather than just kind of following a sort of blindly along. And, um, your parents. Where are they at now? How? It's all sort of. [00:06:00] Yeah, all right. Like, they are still in contact because they have two daughters together. So obviously, they tried very hard to make sure things are as amicable as possible because, um, you know, they've got, you know, grandson and things like that, Like it is. You've got to try and keep these sort of things as level as possible. Um, so you know, they're trying. It's, you know, it's working for the most part. So what? What what advice Other than we we've got, um, communication [00:06:30] is is one of your huge, I suppose, learning things from from this. But what What is there any other things that you that you would say? Um um, to people, Because it's I mean, many, many people have been through the situation of parents breaking up. So it's sort of, I think, maybe, just remember that, um, it's kind of their shit. Like like they're they're dealing [00:07:00] with stuff and like, it is really bad for you. But it is also probably it's still really it's bad for them as well, Like they are dealing with stuff. You're dealing with stuff you just got to try and like, remember that everyone has got, like, stuff happening and you got to try and, um, sort of be as respectful of each other's sort of crap. That's going on as well. Yeah, it's It's something that, um, some some people would would question whether they will split [00:07:30] up because there's Children involved or they hang in there And there's, you know, it's a very difficult relationship that the kids are are involved in. So, having, having been in in in that situation, have you got any thoughts on that? Um, I think honestly, like if you're only staying together for the kids, the kids will probably know because you're not going to be happy. And it's gonna turn the environment sour anyway. [00:08:00] So if you can make things as amicable as possible for everyone, then that's really going to be more beneficial than just kind of like pulling your socks up and just sort of all right, come on, then. Kind of thing. So, um, communication, use your words, your words And, um, it's about being happy. So that was in Week one, where Jennifer and I were sort of thrown quite in the deep end and in the studio and asked to do an interview. Um, not not prepared. So it was interesting how [00:08:30] the questions and answers, um followed in the interview the next the next, um, one was where I went to a a motel room. It sounds dodgy. And, um, I interviewed one of my best friends, Iona again about a a life changing moment. I'm going to tell you about a time when I discovered that it was not possible for me to become a horse. And I know people laugh [00:09:00] about this. People quite close to me have laughed at me quite painfully about this, But actually, this was a true thing. I really thought that I could grow up to be a horse. And people always ask little Children, What do you want to be when you grow up? And I used to always say a horse, and I didn't notice people laughing at me, but maybe they were, but I thought I could be a horse. And at what age Iona did you find out [00:09:30] that you couldn't be a horse? I struggle to remember that I really can't. It's back in the mists of time. But I distinctly remember the day that I discovered that despite cutting out the pictures of the horses and the racing pages of the newspaper and storing them all away and thinking about what kind of horse I was going to look like, somebody did mention to me that it actually wasn't possible. Possibly one of my parents, I don't know. But I do remember trying to get it validated with my mother that this was actually true, that one could not become [00:10:00] a horse. And she did say that it was true and she wasn't given to lying. So then I knew that must have been quite devastating. Actually, if you'd sort of grown up all your life cutting out pitches and, you know, collecting things and yeah, it was I was very upset about it. And I did, actually, despite seeking validation from my mother about the not being able to be a horse, I did have to ask several different people about it. Some of them were less than sympathetic, [00:10:30] which made me realise that actually, it was true. You couldn't be a horse. So you were settled with this whole problem. This whole emotion of Suddenly you couldn't be a horse. It was just like an my unbridled passion for being a horse had suddenly been curtailed. The main point that I had to stick to was that I was still alive and I had to find something else to be when I grew up. [00:11:00] So that's quite life changing really Well, it was I mean, I had this whole future plan for me being a horse. I decided to be a racehorse, even though they were quite tall and I had even set on a racehorse. I just think you remember that one of my very early memories of being set upon a race horse and thinking that it was an awfully long way off the ground, which it was. And I don't know whether that maybe fueled the fire or maybe want to be more of a horse than I had been previously. But I definitely wanted to be a racehorse and probably a chestnut. I [00:11:30] think, of course, back in those days there was only black and white photos in the paper. So who knows what colour they were? Really? And what's the main thing that you think? You you that's, um come out of this experience of realising that a horse is not for you. Well, I think the underlying message really was that contrary to what people like to say these days, you you can't do anything people like to say, Well, if you try hard enough and if you work [00:12:00] hard and if you want something enough and you follow your dream, it will happen. But no, I learned they're quite young, and they look at me an old nag. I don't quite know what to say after that, but that's quite I didn't know what to say back in the day. So, um, I struggled. I really struggled with it. And it took me a long time to just work out what was going to be next. And I thought, maybe a parachutist That was my next plan. And after a while I realised that involved jumping [00:12:30] off things that were quite high up, and so that went by the wayside. And, you know, I was just be floating about aimlessly in the air, really just thinking, What should I do? And I still haven't really decided. That's what they did to me. That was a very life changing experience. If I had just been able to be a horse and just carried on with that plan, I would have been like one of those people that knows what they want to do with their life. And I would have achieved it. I would have been one of those achievers. No, not a horse, not [00:13:00] a parachutist. Just nothing. Well, thank you, Iona, for I'm shitting that that, um I don't quite know how to put that, because I'm sorry to be such a Diana. So I'll, I'll just leave the room now. Thanks for that. Iona and Pat. I don't know about our listeners, but I always love that interview. I find it quite [00:13:30] an emotional roller coaster. This next interview is also on a life changing event. Um, my friend, my very close friend Daniella and I went to a cafe called the Wellesley Club. Um, I found it quite difficult to record there because of all of the background noises, but here it is. So I'm 24. I was reading Harry Potter like the first Harry Potter book exactly when I was age 11, and like, Oh, my God, I'm gonna get a Hogwarts letter This is on. [00:14:00] I am going to school. So what would you say is the most impactful thing about reading Harry Potter as an 11 year old? Aside from the disappointment when you don't get your letter and how that's crippling, so crippling, Um, I think one of the really important things was getting to identify with the character of Hermione like it was one of the first books that I read that had a character who who was female and who I identified [00:14:30] with who got to do cool things in a really popular book. Yeah, she was kind of one of the first female role models that I remember from my years. Totally like I'm sure there were others, but her mind is the one I remember, right? Like I'm all about her mind. So would you say you made connections through Harry Potter with other people your age? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. Like, I think Harry Potter was the first time that I ever really got into fandom, like a community of other nerds who were [00:15:00] really, really into this thing. Like I'd been a fan of things before. I. I think I was super super into Pokemon, but I don't know like it was. It was a video game. All the other people I knew who were into it were were boys. And they just wanted to battle me as opposed to, like, the Harry Potter community, where I found other queer people and other girls and and just like, it was a really communal community. So how how does [00:15:30] Harry Potter connect to your queerness for you? Um, for me, a Harry Potter fan fiction was probably the first time I realised that gay people existed, which is preposterous, because I am. I am a massive gay like I had. I remember I had a crush on, like my science teacher when I was eight years old. She had this, like, long brown hair, and she was really clever. And she was really, really nice. And she taught me biology. And I was just like, My God, you are beautiful and perfect, but, um, crush on girls don't exist between other girls. So, uh, I'm just gonna be [00:16:00] straight now, and that continued for years. But, um, you know, like fan fiction isn't perfect as queer representation goes like, it's pretty dodgy and everything especially in, like our later years. But as far as like, burgeoning young bisexual, it was like, Wait, What? What boys are kissing boys? This is a thing that exists. Yeah. What is this? And like you ended up networking with other queer people, right? Like I've had a bunch of friends [00:16:30] who also thought they were heterosexual. They were also wrong, but where we'd be talking about, like, the the very, very queer lives of fictional character. And it's just it opened the conversation. I guess it it at least started things off even in this imperfect, immature sort of state. Would you say that you you found people within the fictional world, but also because of your shared love of the fictional world? You found people like you outside of it [00:17:00] as well? Yeah, totally. The, um it was all about connection. Like connection to characters was a thing that happened. You know, it could happen just by yourself. Like you. You have the book. This is well, I am. I am so like, it's not like there were queer characters in Harry Potter. Exactly like Dumbledore is. It's not explored in the text. Guys like I'm sorry JK, but that's it's not good enough. No one had any idea it was all Post. But anyway, I'm going on a rap now, and [00:17:30] I But, um anyway, the the friends that I made sort of from the seed of really, really, really liking this book. Yeah. Um, yeah, connections, Queerness, identity exploration. It was a good time. Yeah. Yeah. So it's first of all about exploring your identity from a point of what you love and then finding out more things about yourself through the shared interests of people that you also have come to love. Yeah, totally. [00:18:00] It was emotional. Oh, I. I personally think that Harry Potter is very emotional. So finding that connection, um, you also mentioned meta textual stuff. What would you say is probably I don't know. What what's your The thing you enjoy most about Harry Potter? I'm losing track of that question. I apologise. You mean outside of the tax? Yes. Yes. [00:18:30] Um, I guess I suppose at the time the thing that I was really into was theories like trying to trying to figure out what was up with the next books or whatever. And the gay gay gay fan fiction. People interpreted queerness from a text that didn't have explicit queerness right and like. And I think it's an important thing to do. You know, it's not just [00:19:00] what What do people say about it? That it's like shoe horning gayness in or or like it's It's just So You Can you just like dudes kissing, don't you? Or or you know that all that accusatory. You're just a teenage girl because being a teenage girl is disgusting to you, or or whatever it's it's about, like seeing yourself in the characters, I guess, to a greater extent, like you're a good person. And you're trying to find Queerness in the text that that you're partaking in. Thanks, [00:19:30] Rowan and Daniella Great sense of passion and community. In that interview, our next interview wanted to understand the effects of being outside. So this is Beth and Barry Barry, I'm gonna take you down memory lane in regards to what would be an event that was momentous in your life Since you've come to Wellington. Well, I came to Wellington, um and [00:20:00] I was a bit down. Um, we moved into a house and then I I had a job But then things went bad and I lost my job and we moved out of the house and moved into council flats. Happened to be just at the top of street in Arlington apartments, which was OK. We were quite pleased to have a roof over our [00:20:30] head and, um, Beth and I, at times when we had a bit of money, we'd wander down to the blue note, Uh, late at night. Um, there's a bit of a alternative lifestyle type of thing going down there, and we were quite happy to be in that. And, um, one particular night, Beth decided to go home early, and I stayed on, [00:21:00] then wandered over the road, which happened to be, uh, the, uh and, uh, I walked in there and seemed to be very, very posh and sat at the bar. The barman sort of greeted me with a big smile, and I thought, Well, this is interesting. And then, um, the owner introduced himself. I introduced [00:21:30] myself and got a drink, and, um, it all sort of went on from there the next time we were in town. We weren't doing it very often. Same thing happened. Beth left early and I wandered over the road to the east bar and I walked in there and the barman greeted me with a hey, Barry beer, is it? And the owner [00:22:00] did the same. And, uh, I thought, This is interesting. I like a bar with the bar staff and the management recognise you and what to drink. So I thought this was cool. So I mentioned it to be that I went into the bar and she says, I'm not having a bar of that because it's an she thought it was a Sao massacre spa. But the M stands for Scott [00:22:30] EM Bar, which is quite interesting. So, um, the next time Beth happened to be walking past there, she saw a man in chaps, You know, the cowboy chaps and that sort of thing. You know, they usually have the jeans and the leather leather chaps and everything like that, but this dude didn't have any jeans on, so all he had was just [00:23:00] the chaps. And she came back to me and said, I'm not stepping foot in that bar. But it worked out that it was a theme night they had at the bar. They have lots of different themes and, you know, sixties seventies and this happened to be a leather leather night, so that was all right. Um, I ended up taking Beth into the bar, and it was just magic. Uh, we sort of got to know each other and worked, [00:23:30] um, on becoming better community people. Is there one thing about that bar that stands out for you? Just the friendliness of everybody. Um, in Christchurch. I had gone to some gay bars before, and it was always seemed sleazy. And, uh, but at the bar there, we both Beth [00:24:00] and I started going there regularly and getting to know everybody. And we had, um, school teachers, um, lawyers. We had every walk of life you could think of. We had people coming in from overseas who just happened to have heard about melan Scottie's bar. And it was just, you know, really, really interesting. And we've made some very good friends through the bar. Um, [00:24:30] the owners have just treated us like a family, um, which has been very, very good, because at times, both Beth and I Well, we are here alone in Wellington, and it is nice to have a family at Christmas and things like that. We are sort of being adopted by the bar, which is quite fun. Um, we haven't been going as much lately because I haven't been very well again, but [00:25:00] it's just magic. So even though you're not going to the bar very much, do you still feel connected to the community? Well, yes. Um, I hadn't been in there for about four months, maybe longer. The first week that I hadn't been, I didn't go there. They were text messages. [00:25:30] Where are you? We're missing you. Which was quite strange. But I wasn't well enough to go out. But even after four months going in there, it was a big hoofer. There was hugs and slaps on backs to say, Oh, it was nice to see you again, that sort of thing. And the bar changed my life. Really? And the fact that, um, being [00:26:00] and being greeted and treated like everybody else it didn't matter that I wasn't gay. As in by, um, gay male. I said I'm bi male. Beth's not a lesbian. She's a straight female. So she was treated normally as anyone else would be. She wasn't looked down on I wasn't looked down on. The whole community has been brilliant. [00:26:30] Thanks, Barry and and Beth for for doing that interview. And that's the final interview in the series of interviews we did for the Pride Audio Collective workshops. Um, the final words go to the the team. Um, who who did the workshop? Well, I personally learned a lot during these past weeks, uh, stuff about what kind of equipment to use when you're recording all sorts of things about the environments you need to be and precautions around that and all different types of editing. It [00:27:00] was really informative and super fun, as we've said before, and I just wanted to say Thanks very much, Gareth, for providing us with this opportunity. It's been lovely. Thanks, Ryan. It's been, um, it's been a great opportunity, and, um, I've really enjoyed meeting Gareth and, uh, everyone else that's come along to the course. I have learned lots of interesting things. It's great being up here at access radio and, um, just enjoying the art of conversation and and recording [00:27:30] different interesting people and and different environments. So, um, look out for people with, um, a recording devices community because we'll be out there hunting you down.

IRN: 1224
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rnz_jenny_and_jools.html
ATL REF: 
ATL URL: 
TITLE: Jenny and Jools
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Brian Tamaki; Jenny Rowan; John Banks; Jonathan Young; Jools Joslin; Louisa Wall; Maurice Williamson
INTERVIEWER: Justin Gregory
TAGS: 1990s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Brian Tamaki; Canada; Jenny Rowan; John Banks; Jonathan Young; Jools Joslin; Justin Gregory; Kapiti Coast District; Louisa Wall; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Marriage Equality; Maurice Williamson; Member of Parliament; Quilter case (1996); gay; lesbian; marriage; marriage equality
DATE: 1 September 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Kapiti Coast District, Kapiti Coast District, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Jenny Rowan and Jools Joslin talk to Justin Gregory about marriage equality.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: For Eyewitness and RNZ I'm Justin Gregory. In 2013, MP Louisa Wall's Marriage Amendment Act came into effect, and marriage equality became legal in New Zealand. Since the passing of this historic law, more than 2000 same sex couples have tied the knot. RN z's Eyewitness series takes us back to the night of 17, April 2013 and the third and final reading of the bill in Parliament and the vote that changed history. [00:00:30] Sitting in the gallery that night were two very special witnesses to this moment of history. For seven years, cup coast couple Jenny Rowan and Jules Joslin had argued in court for the right to marry each other and were denied at every turn. They must have thought that this moment would never come because well, before now, Jenny says they had given up the fight. Yeah, it was a pragmatic reality check. We [00:01:00] didn't have any money. We certainly in our own energy and way of being had decided we'd done the best we could. And we would let time take its course, trusting that somewhere in the future somebody would come along and revisit, uh, the whole matter. In 1995 Jules and Jenny were one of three lesbian couples who each applied for a licence to marry here in New Zealand. Their applications were denied. They challenged the decision in the high court and then again in the court of appeal, and they [00:01:30] lost both times in what became known as the Quilter case. In 1998 Jules and Jenny sued New Zealand before the United Nations Human Rights Committee on the grounds of discrimination. Four years later, the decision came back. They had lost again. Jules Joslin. Probably one of the most sobering experiences we had was sitting in that court of appeal with a panel of five judges watching the reactions and listening to the cross questioning. I guess we both felt completely [00:02:00] devalued when the Canadians came along to review their human rights. They actually used the quilter case as you know how not to determine your law. The decision was cutting because both women had been married before and it was so easy. So run of the mill, so accepted, so everything. Nobody questioned anything about that, then in our mid thirties, be in a situation where we were choosing to take [00:02:30] this step very deeply in love, very deeply committed and very deeply clear about why we wanted to marry one another. To have that so devalued and to be under so much scrutiny was dreadful. I felt it really heavily. In 2004, the then Labour government passed the Civil Union Act, allowing same sex couples and others to legally enter into a union. But it was not marriage equality, and Jenny says neither of them wanted a bar of it. We didn't want to participate in anything [00:03:00] that didn't give us full and equal rights and access to all the laws of this land. And the marriage act for us was the primary focus generally amongst our heterosexual friends, et cetera. When that went through, that was the big debate. They thought, Oh, you've got everything now So what's your problem? And then we'd have to say, Well, actually, we haven't got this, this, this and this, and you have to you have to use a separate language and you're still a second class citizen. And most of our friends, of course, were seriously appalled about that. [00:03:30] I have determined that we are not going to raise up a generation that forgets the name of the Lord God Almighty. But the couple were inevitably caught up in the debate around the law change and appalled by the march on Parliament, led by churches opposing the law. Change with Enough is enough slogan and their jack boots and their black outfits and their message strongly messages of hate [00:04:00] on Mass. I was shocked and frightened, and I think it was the level of hatred that was so you could just feel it. It was dreadful. Time passed. Jules and Jenny got legally married in Canada, and in July 2012, Labour MP Louisa Wall's Marriage Definition of Marriage Amendment bill was drawn from the ballot and introduced to the House. It had been some time since the legal battles of the nineties and the acrimony of 2004, and the couple [00:04:30] felt that maybe change was in the air. It felt like the time had come. Certainly back in the nineties, our own community was very divided over the issue of marriage or even legalising our relationships. So it was extremely refreshing when this latest round of debate began, because all of a sudden there seemed to be a groundswell of support amongst our own community and the wider global gay and lesbian community. It did feel as though the time was right. But as the bill went through the process of [00:05:00] becoming law, it was clear that not everyone agreed. I call Jonathan Young. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Traditions are important and have a place. A tradition is the institutional memory of a society. It is not to be cast off or cast away quickly. My view, Mr Speaker, is that history and tradition have invested significant meaning into the term of marriage. And I believe that we need to retain its present definition. Thank you, sir. [00:05:30] Listening to some of the opposition some of the younger MP S with the opposition to this Bill Steele That was, you know, just sad, just absolutely and fundamentally sad that here we were in the 21st century and all of this completely inappropriate crack, if you like, was still being talked about inside our parliament. The house has resumed. Blew us a wall, Mr Speaker, Fast [00:06:00] forward to 17. April 2013 and the final reading of the bill. Jenny and Jell sat in the gallery and watched As the speeches were given and the moment came nearer, they enjoyed national MP Morris Williamson's now famous Big Gay Rainbow speech. One of the messages I had was that this bill was the cause of our drought. This bill was the cause of our drought. Well, if any of you follow my Twitter account, you will see that in the Packera electorate. This morning it was pouring with rain. We have the [00:06:30] most enormous big gay rainbow across my electorate. But it was the change of heart by act leader John Banks, who had described the 1986 homosexual law Reform bill as evil and sickening. That moved and astonished the pair. After three decades and 10 parliaments, I've had time to reflect to reflect on what I said and to reflect on what I did. If I knew then what I have since learned, I would [00:07:00] have acted differently when making this decision, I had to ask myself, Will New Zealanders have more freedoms as a result of this bill? Yes. Will anyone's freedoms be taken away by this bill? No. Would the god that I believe in think any less of me for voting for this bill? No, that's why I support this legislation. [00:07:30] Order members, The eyes are 77. The nose are 44. Oh, The place exploded. The place exploded. Everyone was on their feet. It was fantastic. Assistant Speaker Lindsay tis who had opposed the bill nevertheless allowed the cheering to continue for nearly two whole minutes, followed by the love song. For [00:08:00] that was unforgettable and amazing because it was against the rules of the house. We were told not to do anything or blow our nose or do anything like that. And then we all stood up and sang songs, so that was a privilege and unforgettable experience. Were you crying? Well, yeah, we were. I have to tell you that through this all over the years, through this whole battle, our kids have been through this with us. So it was as important for them as it was for us, to be honest with [00:08:30] you. I mean, they had a shit of a time when they were younger. Our Children have definitely know what it's like to be on the other, you know, to be part of a minority conversation, um, which is not sociably favourable in the provinces anyway, they know what that looks like. And one of the proud things we are of all of our six Children is that they have a sense of justice and huge tolerance. Um, around difference, et cetera. You know, they've felt it and know what it looks like and certainly don't [00:09:00] want to be a part of continuing it. Jules Joslin and Jenny Rowan had helped bring about one of the most significant events in New Zealand's LGBTI Q history. But perhaps surprisingly, they felt that this moment belonged to others. The number of young, lesbian and gay people who were up in that gallery who had not been around in 1986 and who had not been around at the time of [00:09:30] the civil Union and the time we all went to court. This was a new thing for them, and it was as important and life changing for them as those previous things had been for us. Was New Zealand a hard nut to crack on this issue? I think so. No, I think so. Still not settled in terms of human rights and social justice, we were seen as leading the world. I think we lagged seriously In this regard. [00:10:00] Neither woman feels the need to take up the option to get married here, being perfectly content with their Canadian wedding. And, as they say, both believe that there is plenty of change that still needs to happen in their own country for equality to be truly achieved. And they have some advice for LGBTI Q people on how that might come about. Don't live the lie don't live the the two worlds. It is still the onus on us as gays and lesbians to take that risk to have those discussions [00:10:30] with parents and siblings, preferably not over the Christmas dinner table, which where a lot of it seems to happen. Um, and then you do. You do bring about that social attitudinal change. There's no question about that. That's how powerful that can be. You've been listening to Eyewitness on RNZ National. [00:11:00] If you enjoyed this story, please write a review or rate us on iTunes. You can subscribe or listen to every eyewitness podcast on iTunes or at radio NZ dot co dot NZ forward slash series. And while you're there, we'd invite you to dip into any of the other RNZ podcasts. Eyewitness was written and presented by me, Justin Gregory and engineered by Leon.

IRN: 1223
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rnz_hudson_and_halls_live.html
ATL REF: 
ATL URL: 
TITLE: Hudson and Halls Live!
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Chris Parker; Kip Chapman
INTERVIEWER: Eva Radich
TAGS: 1970s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Apollo 13 (theatre); Auckland; Australia; Chris Parker; David Halls; Eva Radich; Hannah Playhouse; Hudson and Halls (television); Hudson and Halls Live! (theatre); Kip Chapman; Peter Hudson; Radio New Zealand; Radio New Zealand Concert; United Kingdom; Wellington; alcohol; camp; cancer; cooking; early modern theatre; external resource; gay; homosexual; suicide; television
DATE: 17 November 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Kip Chapman and Chris Parker talk to Eva Radich about the stage production Hudson and Halls Live!
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Before reality shows like MasterChef had even been thought of New Zealand's own Hudson and halls, whipping up very questionable cooking and making audiences around the country laugh. Considered Trail Blazers at the time. Peter Hudson and David Halls. Also the original Great gay love story. At a time when most homosexual couples kept their relationships very quiet, KK Chapman and Chris Parker bring the would be GMOs to life again with the Silo Theatre Show Hudson and Halls Live opening at Hannah Playhouse in Wellington Tonight, [00:00:30] the duo will be up to their elbows and turkey stuffing as they take the audience back to an eighties TV show. Uh, for an eighties TV set rather for opening night music a certain style always present in Hudson and halls If I could We all and see you [00:01:00] I love the secrets, things you try. It's like if I could see, not stand mean of all the things you see Yeah, question and for me, [00:01:30] yeah, [00:02:00] you, bye to we are right. And what, um, it's only me [00:02:30] will understand all the things you see this question. So [00:03:00] [00:03:30] [00:04:00] Tina Cross with a song from the show Hunter and Halls live, joining me Now. Kip Chapman and Chris Parker didn't know who to call the actor. And who's the writer? Kip. You were the original, weren't you? The writer? The writer? Yes, a lot of the dialogue in a lot of improv and rehearsals, that's for sure, Trying to work it all out. There's a lot of there's a lot of stage admin, a lot of pots, hot pots that [00:04:30] K just wrote whatever he wanted to. And then we had to organise it all because it didn't really line up. Yeah, and you're never quite sure you've got and you've got to make the mistakes work. So there was a lot of improvisation during the rehearsals that sort of found its way into the show. So, you know, this is a sort of show that probably evolves. It goes on, Would you say Yeah, absolutely. And this is an immersive show. So we're acknowledging that the audience is there like we said it in a 19 eighties TV studio. So the audience members are kind of immersed [00:05:00] in this TV studio world. And so if an audience member, um, see something, we're gonna react to it. And so we're really interested in blurring the lines between the audience and the performers. So, yeah, it's a it's a really a live experience. How many episodes did you watch? Well, it's really There are so few episodes out there because from the archives it was all done on VHS. And they just dubbed over it because I just watched something a few minutes ago and everything was there, apart from the musical items by the guests, which [00:05:30] I guess they didn't have the rights to put out. Yes, that's that one on NZ on screen. I've watched that one about 30 times. Have you tried to emulate to any great extent, Chris in terms of your mannerisms? Absolutely. That's 100%. The job of this show is for the actor. It's to kind of I mean, there's that kind of bringing the emotional intensity of the of their relationship. But also you have to hit that nostalgia for the audience. So it's about getting the speech impediment that he had the mannerisms, the voice. So I played David [00:06:00] halls, and so he kind of talks like he's got this sort of lip here, and it's kind of Cockney. But he's also quite formal as well, so he kind of slips between these modes. He was He was English. Yes, they lived here for moved here to design shoes. They they set up a shoe store. Julius Garfinkel was that that was in the arcade. And, of course, it was Queens Arcade Queens, and it didn't mean anything. Julius. I think they just like the name. That's where he met Peter. He was back in New Zealand [00:06:30] as a shoe designer, and then he met Peter, and then they started a shop together. And what was Pete like? Uh, well, Peter sort of talked like this, and Peter, I think, would like to have been seen as the more responsible member of the team. But it's from a wealthy side of Melbourne, so they kind of have that sort of RP sort of, you know, and but was very secretive about his past. Like, we've spoken to lots of their friends, um, over the last couple of years, as we've been developing the show and showing it, and most [00:07:00] of them have no idea about Peter's past, and we really couldn't find out that much. I mean, did you worry about that or did you just try and use a dramatic licence? Well, kind of like what we did with Apollo 13. Like we're theatre makers. Our job is to explore feelings and show feelings on stage. Our job isn't to of the Wikipedia entry of who Peter and David are. Our job is to go. This was their vibe. This is what it felt like to be around them. But his personality type because he didn't want to reveal who he was, tells you quite a lot about him. Yeah, [00:07:30] it's quite interesting when I was working with Coin Holloway on the Voice recently and Cohen was able to delve straight into it and said, Oh, he he keeps a lot of secrets, doesn't he? When he was watching this episode, and even by keeping the secrets, Cohen said, Well, that's how you'd hold your body and by holding your body. That's how the voice comes out. So everything is completely connected. And I think watching my kind of weigh in was watching the episode over just the same episode over and over again and kind of obsessing over it, getting really deep [00:08:00] into it, and you begin to see the relationship in a new way in terms of how they worked on camera together. So all the sniping was that for the audience, for the well, some of it is. And then there's a difference. There's the ones that they know are fun as funny. And there's their brand, that kind of bickering in the kitchen. And then there's a few digs which are just dig a little bit deeper. And that's kind of the love in their relationship coming through. But a dominance in the relationship as well from one or the other. I think they both gave as good as they got. I mean, [00:08:30] our our show is super camp unashamedly camp really fun. And when we put it on, we were a little bit nervous. Oh my God, have we gone too far? But all their friends, like we've met um, David's goddaughter. We've met some of Peter and David's best friends of the show, and the one note we kept getting back when we did our season last year was you haven't gone far enough. That was actually bigger than that. I have to say The feedback I've had from friends at Auckland was a lot of the older gay community were furious and hated [00:09:00] it. Others who weren't involved so much in the gay community got the humour. What's your reaction to that? And why do you think that some people might have some men of a certain age, particularly? May have reacted that way. Look, I, I can't speak for them all I can say. Do you have any of that feedback at the time? Um, look, a few A few people walked out, but I didn't hear any hear anything from them. All I can say is we're coming from a point of view of celebration. Chris and I are both gay men. My husband, [00:09:30] who conceived the show, is a gay man and looking at Peter and David, they are heroes. But your generation is so different. You've grown up in a period where nothing in terms of sexual relationships is illegal. Whereas when uh, Hunt and Hall were making the show was still illegal. Well, it was illegal when I grew up. It was illegal until 1986 And so, at the age of six, when sexuality is beginning in a child, it was, but you need to live with it as an adult. That's what I'm saying. Well, we still we still live against resistance on a daily basis. I mean, you just had to look at Brian [00:10:00] Tamaki yesterday to be like it's still going. I mean, no, I mean, it's different for everyone. It's in different points in their life. But I think as well it's really important to acknowledge the fact that we're also reintroducing these people to a whole new generation of people who never met them. And this is not a criticism. This is just me thinking, Well, you know, if you grew up in the 19 fifties or sixties and you, um you know, had to fight for your rights, I did grow up. I did grow up. You know, I was 22 when I came out, and the reason why I didn't come out was because it wasn't socially acceptable at the time. [00:10:30] So I came up when I was 22. That was in 2002, and 2004 was when, um, civil unions were introduced. I was on the lawn of Parliament going, Oh my God, we've actually got some rights But it was, but it was a separate but equal law. It wasn't until 10 years later, when marriage was made legal. I got married year to my husband. That's I've been part of this journey. And these guys, you know, 30 years ago were were at the absolute cutting edge of that fight. What do you think of their relationship? [00:11:00] Um, in terms of why they made it so public was that you know them as a political statement, or was it just because of who they were that they didn't like to hide reality? I don't think it was political at all because they never really fought for the politics of being gay. I think what their fight was was against the blandness and the beige of New Zealand culture. And I think that's why this story is so important. Today we live in a culture where our national colour is black, like everyone just wears black puffer jackets. [00:11:30] Look, if you if you look at them, you know cumber buns the complete opposite. And it's like, thank God we have people like riding around and, you know, they completely unlicensed, just going just living their life to their fullest. And I think like I look at them and I, I am inspired by it. And I think you sort of think like you're carving your own way. But you actually acknowledge that someone's already done that for you. And these two men have, in a way, sort of carved a path for me in order to live my life to my fullest because you think people [00:12:00] laugh with them or, um, is it a I think there's in our in our show. Hopefully, it's celebratory, and I know that the audience this could be, you know, this is exactly what happened in the episode I was watching. I think when things get absolutely terrible, yeah, and we have cooking spilling all across the table. I think in terms of whether they are laughing with [00:12:30] us or at us, and this is something I feel quite strongly about is the style of camp. And I think it's an empowered art form that, um, some people like to think that it's kind of a A, and this is kind of New Zealand's sort of manly, sort of over the top, very queenly, sort of lots of bitchiness. That sort of camp is a style like it. It is a style. It's a performance style. Graham Norton plays to it. He turns it up, and it is empowered. It's a choice for that performer. They had those innate qualities in them, but they turn [00:13:00] it up. So was there much conversation when you originally put the show together about that camping style and how you would use it today? I don't think there was any getting away from that. I think that was just It's so innate in their personalities that that's the only way you can camp for the television as well. There's a choice. People would love it. I. I turned up my camp on stage because I knew. I know people like it and I like giving it. It's not. It's nothing. I'm ashamed of the depth of the relationship. [00:13:30] I mean, these two guys, they moved to back to England. Um, and the show was picked up by BBC. I think, um, they were together the you know, the big part of their lives. And when um, one of the guys got cancer, who was it who was sick? Peter died of cancer at about the age of 62 and took his own life less than two years later. Yeah, I think 14 months later. And can you imagine not being able to talk in public because he was interviewed many times after the death of Peter not being able to say my lover of 30 [00:14:00] years, my partner, my soulmate. So how did he refer to uh oh, I think they I think I watched one terrible interview where they said, Oh, your friend passed away this year and I mean, that is just makes my skin crawl. And so you can imagine how hard that must have been for David. It's just yeah, dreadful. We're talking to Kip Chapman and Chris Parker about their show, Hunter and Hall's live, which is everything but sad. Yeah, because I mean, you haven't really gone into that side of it. [00:14:30] This is about doing a show live on stage, as they did it live for them the way we celebrate them, As you know, it's not. This isn't a kind of museum piece. This is like we're we're bringing the life back. We're kind of reintroducing them the way that the country saw them, which is through this outrageous cooking show that was on television. These men were like kind of making cream cheese soups while drinking a champagne with the other hand. You know, while also bickering with each other there, there's kind of nothing like it. And when you watch it on NZ on screen and [00:15:00] then on the stage, you you hardly believe that it happened. But it did, and it was that big. Do you think they would have scripted anything when they made their shows? Apparently they scripted nothing but what they did the day before the episode, they'd They'd bring the floor manager around to their house, where they'd perform the show in front of the floor manager whilst drinking heavily, and then the floor manager would have both of them drinking heavily. I think they went through, like a case of rum and cherry once a fortnight or something like, It's ridiculous. The floor [00:15:30] managers would say, You know, you'd have a few drinks while over at their house, and you you sort of go home a little bit drunk and sort of forgotten the order of the show, which was probably part of their grand plan. In the scheme of things, you know, just having a few drinks and enjoying what they do as well. Yeah, because it's a party in the kitchen. Oh, it's an absolute party. And they knew what made good television. They knew that when they were bickering that you can see that little glisten in their eyes. When you watch the New Zealand on screen episode, they know that they're making some, you know, amazing television. We don't have television like that. [00:16:00] Now. Everything is so manufactured and homogenised. Our presenters are just so bland and just follow rope. These guys were themselves. And it's just and that spontaneity is what you're trying to capture. Even though you've now got basically a scripted show, I would presume after doing it last year. It's kind of like, um, Apollo, like with with Apollo 13, which is an interactive show. It was a highly scripted show, but by it being highly scripted, it allowed us times to [00:16:30] to engage with anything that was live or spontaneous, and this is the same. This is the exact same thing. You can't control what the food's going to do. You'll be acting on stage looking at cap, and you think something's burning so What are you making? Well, the one I be struggling with the most is the hot cheese soup. And so to not fondue. I remember them for their fondue. We have this cream of cheese soup, which was traditionally served cold, cold, cold cheese. So [00:17:00] it actually just like a just like a sauce. But, um, that's a We've got a hot carrot and raisin salad, Spanish style peas with ham with steamed lettuce. And what are you drinking? What's on the side? That's available. Champagne, sherry, rum, brandy and and lots of white wine. And how much of the humour comes from? That would be that sort of simulated drunkenness cup, do you think? [00:17:30] Yeah, well, look, it, really. It really amps up the stakes of the show because during the show, things start to go. Um, not quite as well as the two would have hoped. And so their coping mechanism is more brandy and which leads to more and more disasters. So the show sort of starts to derail at about the 40 minute mark. Kind of appropriate. I was suddenly thinking about the Hannah Playhouse. Originally set up as a restaurant theatre. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It does have that kind of vibe to it, but we don't want probably any audience members [00:18:00] to eat the food. I'm not quite sure The Gili T that we cook it's quite you can really smell, smell all the cooking. So there's live cooking on stage the whole time. So we've got pots going the whole time and by half time, you can you really get that sense that you're in your grandmother's house in 19 eighties with sort of boiled vegetables, lots of butter and carrots and onions Fire at the door. Have we got a fire at the red? I was just gonna ask you finally, Do you know how when I met you first kept you were working on, um, [00:18:30] your original show, Apollo 13, which went on to have an amazing life, started off. I think at Bats Theatre about seven or eight years ago. So the last time I spoke to you, we were about four days away from opening, opening that show, and we were just We hadn't slept in about six weeks, but and it was super was gonna hold. Yeah, we had phones, gaffer tape to these consoles that were painted by hand. Well, it just people really responded to that style of theatre, a style of theatre that is not just people sitting [00:19:00] passively in a seat and just watching a show. And that show, as a result, went on to have an amazing life both in this country and overseas. So my question is, do you think Hudson and Hall's live would travel? Look, I hope so. The response we got from the Auckland season is was amazing. We sold out every single every single night. We've got a great long season here, which is great next year. We've got a big tour of New Zealand, which we're really excited about, and I think overseas it's got a real shot. It it's full of joy. It's super funny, [00:19:30] and I think it's got quite a British sensibility, So I'd love to travel. Chris is told. Yeah, he's prepared to travel. I've packed my case and I'm ready to go. Well, I know you're gonna have a great night tonight. It's really lovely to see you again. Congratulations on all these shows which seem to have broken through into different sort of style of theatre that you must be very happy about. I'm really excited about it and enjoy yourselves tonight. Thank you very much. Chris Parker and Kip Chapman and the show is called Hudson and Halls Live opening at house in [00:20:00] Wellington this evening.

IRN: 1213
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rnz_ngahuia_te_awekotuku_2017.html
ATL REF: 
ATL URL: 
TITLE: Ngahuia Te Awekotuku
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ngahuia Te Awekotuku
INTERVIEWER: Kathryn Ryan
TAGS: 1970s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Kathryn Ryan; Ngahuia Te Awekotuku; Radio New Zealand; Radio New Zealand National; deviant; external resource; gay liberation movement; lesbian
DATE: 1 March 2017
YEAR: 2017
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Ngahuia Te Awekotuku published New Zealand's first openly lesbian fiction in the 1970s, and in that same decade she was denied entry to the United States for being gay - classed as a " sexual deviant". Ngahuia talks to Kathryn Ryan.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: And now to welcome our next guest, the Awe, who has been a catalyst for change in a for nearly five decades, especially as a fierce advocate for both LGBT and Maori women's rights. In the 19 seventies, she published New Zealand's first openly lesbian fiction, the same decade that she was denied entry to the United States for being gay. That caused her to take up the microphone at the University of Auckland, asking if her peers were comfortable with her treatment, a call to action [00:00:30] that led to a stronger voice for the gay liberation movement in New Zealand. A limited edition with extra stories of her fiction collection. Tahiri has just been published. It fictionalises her experiences as a Maori teenager, uh, who was attracted to girls in 19 fifties and 19 sixties Rotorua. She has also published extensively in other areas and is a highly respected academic. And she's our guest in the Hamilton studio. [00:01:00] Lovely to talk to you, Catherine. Lovely to be here. Yes, last time we were talking about, um, about a book that you had, uh, uh co-authored from memory. Uh, it was some years ago now, and I'm just trying to bring the title up again. Um um the world of Maori tattoo, which won the, um, Maori Inaugural Book of the Decade in 2008 or 9000 Montana [00:01:30] as well. Yes. I beg your pardon. It was published 2007. You did. I recall that now, uh, and also, um, another book you have written in the weaving Legacies 2015 has been published since. And it occurs to me the strands to use the analogy of your life rich as they are just reading of your childhood, one can see how this goes right back to a very, um, rich cultural immersion in many ways, uh, in [00:02:00] the traditional world, traditional Maori world, uh, equally in the world of classical music was much of this career laid in those early years, Do you think? Oh, I think so. I was actually really privileged to be raised by a family of weavers, of storytellers, of tourist guides of extraordinary, unstoppable, fierce and courageous women in the village of in our house [00:02:30] was interesting in that there were lots of people coming and going as is common with Maori households even today and yet at the same time to being in There was an incredible exposure to an experience of visitors of, of people coming in to admire the thermal environment, to gawk at the elements of our culture which we permitted them or invited them into. And, [00:03:00] um so I was really very, very lucky. I had a you know, I had a brilliant grandmother and a really stunning mother. And to them, I will always be grateful they were weavers, brilliant weavers with a belief in excellence, I think particularly your Yes, that's right. Yeah. She was the, um Weaver who produced the cloak for Elizabeth, the second in the first royal visit. 1953 54. So even though I'm utterly hopeless with fibre, [00:03:30] I was privileged to grow up with the scent of it with the production of it, with the magic of care of indigenous fibres All around me as a little girl, right up into, um, adolescence, also part and And I get the sense also just reading in your own words. I get the sense also that you felt very nurtured in every way. Um, which I always think is an important thing in some ways. For those who are going to lead [00:04:00] the charge. You know, it takes tremendous confidence to be the first. Sometimes to stand up and say, Come on, people, we've got to take this on. Yes, that's true. I would say, though, that, um I also had my hard times. A lot of it, um, through my own antics and, um, stubbornness, but as, um as a little girl that liked other girls, you know, there was always that tension. Um, there were lots of [00:04:30] other, um, difficulties to growing up at home and in the in the village. Um, but the women with whom I was nurtured gave me the strength and showed me how you can do stuff. You can make your dreams come true. You don't need men. Um, things will be OK. They instilled in me, particularly my a real sense of hope. And, um, I've never, ever forgotten [00:05:00] that a cousin is Donna again. Someone right at the forefront of of activism. Um, it, uh you know, we're going to talk in a moment how far things have come. But we've we we don't want to forget just how hard it was. And again the sacrifices that people made, uh, and what they put up with, really and taking on many courses. Multiple courses in in in your case. But you've been great friends, I think, for a long time. And I'm interested also because there was time [00:05:30] in Wellington. This was your convent school in, uh, in Wellington and just again, reading between the lines, the role of the nuns, who in some ways back in the day were perhaps the first sort of manifestation of these independent women, you know, um, practising their careers and, uh, ostensibly in charge of the finances, such as they were, uh, what was the influence there for better and for worse. Oh, absolutely huge. I was only in Wellington at Mount Carmel in for [00:06:00] a year. It was like my my strange, um, introduction to high culture. But, um, returning to at age nine after a year of Monteverdi and bark and, um, some really quite extraordinary, um, Western cultural experiences, even though I was only eight or nine, I came to Saint Michael's school in and it was run by these astonishing [00:06:30] Irish nuns Sister Mary, Sister Mary Bertrand um, Sister Boni. And they really were role models. in that they enveloped us with their confidence, their trust, their vision. We were a really interesting school. Um, every imaginable type of non-english speaking immigrant from Europe was there. At one point, [00:07:00] we had something like 17 different nationalities. The school only went to standard six or form two and was, um, a three classroom school beneath the mountain. Or the nuns were remarkable task mistresses and stunning role models. There was nothing they could not do, which included concreting, the tennis court and driving trucks and coaching the boys in football. They [00:07:30] were truly amazing women, your academic career. I I'm interested because this seems to be as it is for many people, let alone in the late sixties, early seventies, personally and indeed at a political level, Um, a fractious time, uh, a time where so many possibilities are opening and yet equally doors seem to be closed on you as well. And, uh, and I think you alluded to, you know, some of the personal, um, challenges that that anyone goes through at this time of life. What was happening? What what were you [00:08:00] studying and equally what was happening late sixties early seventies around the emergence. Both of, uh, women's liberation gay liberation. Um, indeed, Um, uh, the movement was developing as well. Where were you at? I guess at this time. Oh, dear. That's a long story. I, um I think I'll jump a few years and, um, ignore the fact that I began at law school, got two thirds of a law degree and [00:08:30] found myself getting A's in English, which I enjoyed immensely. I was doing a double degree and shifted to English literature and art history. Um, I was one of the more enthusiastic and rambunctious um, teenagers at the University of Auckland. I spent about a week in the Princes Street version of the Labour Party. Didn't really fit me very well, but I made lots of friends. And in, uh, late 1970 [00:09:00] a few of us tried to start a women's liberation group because we were sick of just ignoring handouts for the anti-vietnam and anti apartheid movements and being basically servants and, um, hand maidens to the boys whom I will not name. And so a few of us decided that the movement that was manifesting in the British Isles and [00:09:30] the USA was looking relevant and interesting for us. And, um, we attended an event in August 1970 at the university. Unfortunately, predictably, it was disrupted by the engineering students, all male, hideous and, um, completely maniacal in terror. We fled and gave up until, um after the summer break in early 1971 February [00:10:00] March and the arrival of a really charismatic and interesting woman who was doing her, uh, masters degree at Auckland, Um, in politics. And she and a group of others called our first meeting. We began with consciousness raising groups, and amongst them were people like Susan Edgeley, Sharon Seman, Pat Ogilvie, uh, Kay Turner and various others, [00:10:30] as well as my cousin Donna and me as the only two very brave Maori. What was interesting, too, is that a parallel, uh, group had started with Jackson and Sid Jackson. And that, of course, was so that in lots of respects, we were, uh, parallel activist groups. The Polynesian Panthers were [00:11:00] also emerging from what was then the most extraordinary and vibrant Pacific ghetto Ponsonby and Grey Lynn. And so Auckland, in a way, was a a fulcrum of extraordinary, exciting and exultant political activity with youth with young people not just, um, intellectuals and, uh, university students. But right across, um, all the different, um, communities. [00:11:30] It was a It was an exciting time. And I think one of the reasons is that economically, it was a relatively stable time so that we could branch out. We didn't have to, um, constantly worry about paying our fees or paying our rent. Um, we were the beneficiaries of an incredibly socialist and generous, um, political system, which in [00:12:00] many ways privileged us with the understanding that if we passed our exams, if we did well, if we followed our careers with passion and focus, then government would continue to pay our fees and give us allowances. So it wasn't just about mucking around being fabulously political. It was also about applying ourselves as students, whereas now students, no matter how brilliant, still have to have jobs still have to pay the rent, still [00:12:30] have to buy textbooks at their own or their parents expense. And that really troubles me. We should say, Of course, she went on to complete your your PhD. But around this time, if we are looking at, um uh, I guess where our conversation is heading, which is being at the forefront of, um, gay liberation for want of of a of a of a better term If we talk about the moment of the time there's a a picture here that's startling. Um uh, a startlingly [00:13:00] powerful image of you. Uh, this is in crack the student newspaper in in 1971. We are not dangerous or subversive perverts, but real and thinking individuals. Excuse me. Why should we hide our faces while the public exposes it? Bigot, Why should we be invisible? What were the experiences of you and so many others of the time, including in the academic environment? Oh, my goodness. Um, I I wrote [00:13:30] that piece for crack, and it was called lesbianism. The elegance of unfettered love. And it was published in July 1971. Um, it was primarily about reassuring. Our parents and our teachers and people like Patricia Bartlett who had huge traction at that time that, um, we had a lot to give. We had a lot to do as well as that too. You know, there was tremendous [00:14:00] pain and agony and hypocrisy and evil, um, affecting our brothers, our cousins, our fellow students, our uncles, our own family members. And of course I'm referring particularly in my case, to the community in which I was raised. Um, uncles who were revered who were, um, respected, lived in constant fear [00:14:30] of being exposed or or being jailed for the mere fact that they preferred the company and the sexual, um, pleasures with other men. And it it was wrong. You know, I just felt that the bigotry and the, um the silencing the way that if you were like that, as long as you were like that quietly and with secrecy [00:15:00] and no one else knew, then you could get on your life, get on with your life, and everything would be fine. Well, that just wasn't true. That wasn't real. When that article was published, I was kind of Well, I was confronted by a number of women, many of whom were my mentors, um, lecturers, um, significant, uh, political figures. But one outstanding example came from, um, a confrontation [00:15:30] in her office with a senior Auckland University academic who accused me of the heinous, um, offence of encouraging younger women to undertake an unsavoury and unhealthy life and, you know, vulnerable young girls at the University of Auckland should not be exposed to such ideas because they were unhealthy, unsavoury and unwholesome. Um, [00:16:00] you know, I think now, with openly lesbian and homosexual members of parliament, we live in a completely different world. And yet, in some ways, too, though, Catherine, I worry about that, because does a change of law necessarily affect a change of heart? You know, how deep are the differences that government can legislate to decriminalise or, um, enable [00:16:30] the so-called, um, equality of sexes And in the in the, um, situation of the USA now, of, um, ethnicities and religions, You know, when we're dealing now in the time of fear and doubt and actual dread when it comes to the USA, Um, how deep are the differences and how real is the poverty of spirit that created [00:17:00] Brexit and, um, voted for Trump? It is interesting. It's a very interesting observation. The fish, um, and how they get exposed. And in many instances, both in Europe and in the United States, it is immigrants. The irony of this in the US, which is, you know, uh, will will will remain if you look at you know, 202 150 years of history of, uh, the country in its current form, Um, uh, dominated by those who have come as immigrants And [00:17:30] the story, of course, of its indigenous people, Uh, alongside that. But the irony of it that this has now become such a focus for so many. But those fishes emerge at certain times, don't they? And I? I think that's what you're alluding to. Because if you look at the New Zealand situation, you had first the decriminalisation of homosexual acts between men, civil unions. Uh, then, um, marriage, gay marriage. Um, now, most recently the, um, getting rid of the convictions, historic convictions for people prepared [00:18:00] to go through that process. But that, as you say is, is AAA legal process. And the issue is really how much in your words has has the change of heart happened? Where do you assess that? And in many instances, it demonstrably has. But do you still fear that, um, I don't know, unpleasantness, unkindness, discrimination still does and risks increasingly rearing its head again. How are you looking at at at things now? [00:18:30] Well, I I I consider places like are small towns in the Heartland of Aotearoa, New Zealand, and the safety of young lesbian women walking down the main street Holding hands are all young men walking down the main street and holding hands and being openly affectionate. And they know they are taking [00:19:00] a risk when they do that. Um, I think about the rugby clubs and sports clubs of my own communities and how open affection displayed between streets is, um, OK, it's normal. It's what good red blooded, uh, young people who have the hots for each other do. But if that type of, um expression were to occur [00:19:30] between two women or two men, there would still be sniggering. There would still be disapproval. There would still be disdain. Um, even now and even in recent months, uh, men have been young men, vulnerable men have been beaten to death or badly injured, um, for expressing affection or lust for someone [00:20:00] else. Someone of their own sex. Um, for me, this indicates fear. It shows us that underneath the cosmetic and, um, superficial legislative processes that say, um, but government allows this behaviour. It is OK. There is still this enormous resistance within the human heart. There is still this sense, particularly with the rise of the Christian right and the [00:20:30] prevalence in the Maori world of, um, some extraordinary fundamentalist religion. Abrahamic religion. Um, you know, we we are we are seeing I won't say exactly a violent backlash. But the sniggering, the snide remarks, the disapproval, the rejection or the fear of rejection remains. And a lot of particularly powerful Maori people who may well be gay or prefer their own sex for pleasure [00:21:00] are still in the closet. Mental health outcomes, mental health outcomes for all youth is of a of a concern to us. Um, for Maori youth, a particular concern to us and and for queer youth, a particular concern to us. And that word rejection is that in many ways the most dangerous thing the fear of rejection, that or that that fear, that you're not OK as who you are. But OK, we'll put the laws in place, and, uh, we do all the, uh, the the gestures and the rules. But [00:21:30] in the end of people aren't openly accepting if people still make someone else feel like they are other, that in many ways is the most serious harm done. Yes, I think it is. I think you're right. That, um rejection, particularly by the people that you love and by the people that you trust, um, can be the most damaging and heinous and ghastly experience. And it does not surprise me. I mean, we've [00:22:00] just come out of a very long process and research project about death in the Maori world. Um, this is the Maori and Psychology Research unit at Waikato University. And one of our findings has been the correlation with, um, queer Maori, um, vulnerable young teenage males particularly, and their own, uh, self identity and the rate of attempted suicide and actual suicide. [00:22:30] And often beneath all that is, um, the damage wrought by older men who are in the closet. Um, when there is an event like Pride Week or same same but different book festival celebrated in the hinterlands of a New Zealand in, um, small communities in places where [00:23:00] a good keen man is a straight man. When that happens, then I think we can actually congratulate each other on having gone forward. And yes, it's not all completely hopeless. I've just spent the last week at Catherine at the wonderful um, it was 35,000. Plus, I think I was watching some of it on Maori television, actually thinking that's got to be a go to it. It absolutely is. And yet for me, you [00:23:30] know, it was about celebration. It was about jubilation. It was about exultation. It was about all the grand and fabulous and glorious aspects of being Maori. And yet, you know, I don't want to sound like Trump, but mainstream media looks away from it. You know, it is stuff like that which we need to celebrate because it is. It is an event like or like Pride Week, in which we see, [00:24:00] um, we see us, we see my communities. Um, we see the hope and the positivity, and not just the cosmetic glamour and the silliness. But we actually see the considered and the sound and the creative emerge. And that's where the hope is. Um, yeah, thank you. It was very, very powerful, actually. And it's it's absolutely on my must go to list because I imagine, as a live event, it's just absolutely profound. [00:24:30] Thank you. Thanks again. The book This fiction collection has just been published with some extra stories.

IRN: 1217
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rnz_bill_logan_historic_convictions.html
ATL REF: 
ATL URL: 
TITLE: Bill Logan - historic convictions
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Bill Logan
INTERVIEWER: Bryan Crump
TAGS: 1980s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bill Logan; Bryan Crump; Criminal Records (Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences) Act 2018; Historic Convictions; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Wellington; concealed conviction; convictions; external resource; gay; homosexual; homosexual law reform; petition on historic convictions; saunas
DATE: 28 June 2017
YEAR: 2017
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Bill Logan talks to Bryan Crump about the campaign to expunge convictions for consensual homosexual activity prior to homosexual law reform in 1986.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: 31 years ago, Bill Logan was one of the lead activists campaigning for homosexual law reform, a campaign which was ultimately successful. Now he's involved in a new campaign of sorts to expunge the convictions for homosexual activity under the old law. From the criminal record, Bill is on the line now. Welcome to the show. Nice to have you on. How many men were convicted? As far as you know, of gay [00:00:30] sex under the old law before it changed in 1986. We really have no idea. Um, I don't think anyone's ever had any idea. Uh, it's just one of those things that's impossible to to figure out how many? So again, we don't know how many men went to jail. These are figures which were were never, never kept at the at the time they had. They had sort of how [00:01:00] many people were in this jail or that jail in certain years and so on. Um, but, um, the the the figures weren't ever sorted out Very well. Uh, and, uh, of course, in the in the more recent years, not so many people were sent to jail, but but, um uh, fined and, um, simply shamed and prosecuted. Um, the publicity was as bad as anything. [00:01:30] Bill, do you know when the last conviction was under the under the old law? No, but there were There were convictions very, very late in the piece. Uh, there were raids of gay places of resort saunas and things like that right through into the eighties. Really? I know of people who were, um, convicted of things, uh, [00:02:00] in the in the early eighties. What? The cops raiding gay venues. You're under arrest. Yep. Seems rather bizarre now, doesn't it? It's weird. Uh, it's and even at the time, people who liberal people just thought this is mad. But, um, it was a way of having some entertainment. And if things were quiet at the police station, [00:02:30] we don't know if any men were in prison in 1986 there wouldn't have been, But lives had already been wrecked. The The thing is, of course, that the shame involved for people was just enormous. And people I know of who were who were prosecuted who were mostly by the time I knew them. [00:03:00] Old men already. Uh, were you hiding? Um, very, very quiet. in their lives had marginal existences Sometimes. Did you know of people who got caught up in some of those raids in the eighties? In the eighties? Yeah. Um, yeah. I don't know if anyone who was prosecuted [00:03:30] in the eighties, but, um the the, um Wakefield sauna. I think it was called the Sun Sauna at the time. I can't remember. They changed the name at one point, um, was, um uh, there was a raid in the in the I think 1980 one must have been, um and, er someone actually rang me from the sauna, saying, [00:04:00] this is what was happening. And, uh, I just said to tell everyone Look, don't tell the police anything about what you were doing. You don't have to admit to anything. And I don't think they had any prosecutions because no one was caught in any position which was too compromised. They weren't caught having sex. In other words, that's right. Yeah, but, [00:04:30] um, it would have been very easy if anyone had been caught having sex to, uh, prosecute them, and And if they had admitted having sex, they would have been prosecuted. Did the police take a whole lot of blokes down to the station, which is just around the down around the corner anyway. Yeah. Did you speak to officers? Because you're you're a lawyer? No, [00:05:00] no, I'm not a lawyer. No, I didn't speak, I think I I can't even remember. I think I probably gave the fellow who rang me. I mean, I rang a lawyer. Yes, I rang. A lawyer asked them to go round. It's so interesting. It was just strange to think that the cops must have been just Yeah, incredibly bored. An incredibly quiet night in Wellington. And [00:05:30] And it made them feel big and manly and, you know, But, you know, some of those guys were terrified and and they would have got home three hours late. And, you know, some of them might have been married or living double lives. Men dead, some dead. Yeah. So them or [00:06:00] their mothers would have been worried about them if they were. They were teenagers or whatever. Um, all sorts of stories there. I could ask this next question Two ways. The first way is to say, Why are you involved in expunging people from the criminal record now the other way of asking that question is, are you a bit disappointed? It's taken so long for a bill to reach Parliament that addresses this? [00:06:30] Well, I, I think these are people who are owed a hell of a lot by society. Um, they These are people whose lives were wrecked, essentially, who who didn't have the careers they normally would have wanted, and or it could have been reasonably expected. Um, who Who? Who lost jobs, who lost family connections? Uh, [00:07:00] who lost friends who lost friendship networks and who in who who lost the self confidence to rebuild their lives after what was a complete disaster. Uh, and so I think we owe them a hell of a lot. Uh, the pardons, the least that can be done. Actually, no. Um, of course, it should have been done ages ago. Uh, and [00:07:30] of course, a lot more than that should be done. But in the real world, I don't suppose you can expect much more. What's proposed under the legislation that's currently gone to the house, gone to parliament. Well, it allows you to make an application, um, to the the chief of the Ministry of Justice, who can make a decision that [00:08:00] if this had been dealt with under the current law, you wouldn't have been found guilty. You wouldn't. There wouldn't have been a crime under the current law. And in that, if, if that was the case, your your your your Your conviction is expunged. Um, and it's it's not a very elaborate process. I suspect you just have to write a letter. Uh, and [00:08:30] some bureaucrat will be given the chance of looking into it and make a recommendation to the secretary of justice. Um, so it's a fairly simple process, I think, as far as I can tell from what the Justice Ministry is saying, its estimates are that maybe there are 1000 men or they're about who could qualify. That's simply a guess. No one knows. Um, I suppose it's a good guess, but I really don't think there's much [00:09:00] evidence and I don't I. I personally don't think many people are going to apply because it only it only kind of and brings it all up again and brings out the what was a a horrible episode in someone's life. But it does. It does, even if someone doesn't apply for this it It it makes it makes it possible. And it must be a bit of a load off [00:09:30] the mind of someone for whom this has happened. Do you think it's the right way, or is it enough in terms? If And and we have to assume that it's passed by Parliament. If it is legislation in its current form, do you think it does enough to address what happened? I mean, it's certainly not enough. Uh, but it's a gesture. Um what? What? What can be enough If someone's life has been wrecked [00:10:00] and and and and in in most cases, there's been huge damage to these lives, Um, I don't suppose in all cases it's been wrecked. Some people have gone on to lead very valuable lives in their own terms and in terms of the people around them. But in many cases, been huge damage to these lives. And in some cases, you chaotic damage. Um, [00:10:30] you know what? What? How can you How can you How can you pay back for that? What can you do to a tone for that kind of Has there ever been because I don't think there has been. You would know if there had been any official apology ever. Nope. Would that help, though? Well, everything. [00:11:00] Everything helps, and and it it it does depend on on the sense of the sense of meaning behind it. You know of where it comes from and the sense of OO of of authenticity that that lies behind the apology. Um, [00:11:30] you know, But the fact is that the bunch of thugs who, uh, uh, go in like, los into a a AAA gay venue and and and have fun, you know, wrecking people's lives. Some of them, of course, have no gone elsewhere. But some of them are now [00:12:00] leading the police, and they're not going to. They're not going to apologise. There's no way they can apologise. Well, I guess is there can they? I mean, anyone could apologise. Anyone could acknowledge that they got it wrong in the past, and and in a way, it's the police who were the vehicle through which society acted. Um, [00:12:30] and it's, uh, it's it's them who, who, in a way, bear the brunt of of society's responsibility. Um, for a lot of the stuff. It's interesting compensation argument now, to some extent, [00:13:00] because I was thinking of those who got caught up in the whole anti gay thing who I don't think were convicted of anything. And it was just through. I'm thinking of Colin Moyle. Now you can you remember better than me? Maybe Colin Moy, who was a labour politician in the 19 seventies who was smeared for, um by for being gay. And I don't think he was ever prosecuted. No, but yet I mean that [00:13:30] effect. He was at one point seen as being a potential labour leader When the affair blew up in the media. That was it for his political. He did get end up in Parliament as the minister of agriculture in the 84 Labour government. He was never the same. He he he he he he never had the same authority, the never the same kind of compelling potential leader that he had been. Muldoon used [00:14:00] an anti gay slur to really destroy him. So how does one compensate somebody like that? You can't really, can you? But you could compensate those who have been convicted. Is it worth? Because I know that Bill English has said as as far as he's concerned, we're not going to compensate people for this. I think I think I think some monetary compensation would be appropriate. [00:14:30] Um, how you would I mean, anything would be a gesture and how you would arrange it. I don't know. It would probably have to be a set sum. Um, perhaps you could set up a a small commission and say, uh and and get a variable sum depending on on a number of criteria, and it could be assessed. Ah, [00:15:00] they don't want to open up. What would be a slightly complicated process. I actually don't think there'd be all that many people who would Who would want to go there because of the because I don't think there will be many people who who ask for, uh, uh a pardon for the same reasons people don't want to open it up, but I fear [00:15:30] that it'd just be too many people, Too much work, too much money. And, um, when you when you look back Now it's 31 years since the law was changed, and that was seen as as a as a great victory. Uh, for I think, for all liberal activists, maybe I think every for anyone who believed in human rights, really in 1986. [00:16:00] But I still hear quite a lot of sadness in your voice, Bill. Well, it was, um I think it was an amazing time. And it was wonderful to be on on, uh, the winning side. It would have been terrible if we hadn't won, but, um, there was also, you know, we were fighting against a real hurt, [00:16:30] Uh, and the hurt just doesn't go away if the hurt was there, Um, the there are There are a lot of people whose hurt was so much that they couldn't stand it. And and and, you know, there were people who suicidal, and there are still people who can't cope. Uh, and [00:17:00] I I'm a counsellor. Now. I come across kids who come from quite liberal families whose families wouldn't like the idea of discrimination in the workplace that can't cope with their own kids being gay and, uh, certainly can't cope with their kid [00:17:30] thing. Trends and people. Kids getting kicked out of home when they're 16 years old, 15 years old even. Why do you think that is now? Now, 31 years later, Bill II, I think people a very, very slow to escape [00:18:00] the straitjacket of, uh, you know, these rigid gender. They're afraid, aren't they? It's fear, don't you think? Fear of of your kid not being something. But I think in the end it's It's a fear that drives parents if they end up making that kind of mistake. But the kids kicked out of home. You can guarantee that they'll [00:18:30] at least go through a period of suicidality every time. And if they get through that, they're still going to then get to get through some bitterness. Now the parents will cope eventually, you know, give them a year, two years. They'll they'll in most cases come around. But that's a terrible thing to put the 16 [00:19:00] year old true. Yeah, and it would save a lot of time and angst that they didn't take so long. And life. Bill, It's been great talking with you. Thanks very much for joining us. Thank you, Brian Bill Logan, gay activist talking about legislation which will, if it's passed, expunge or at least [00:19:30] allow men who were convicted of homosexual activity before the law change of 1986 to apply to have their criminal conviction expunged from the criminal record.

IRN: 1261
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rnz_cissy_rock_auckland_pride_24_november_2018.html
ATL REF: 
ATL URL: 
TITLE: Cissy Rock - Aucklands Pride Parade
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Cissy Rock
INTERVIEWER: Kim Hill
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland Pride Festival; Auckland Pride festival (2019); Cissy Rock; Emilie Rākete; Kim Hill; People Against Prisons Aotearoa (formerly known as No Pride In Prisons); Pride parade; Pride parade (Auckland); Radio New Zealand; Rainbow Tick; external resource; protest; sponsorship; transgender
DATE: 24 November 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Aotearoa New Zealand, Aotearoa New Zealand, Oceania
CONTEXT: Cissy Rock, President of the Auckland Pride Board talks to Kim Hill about the controversies surrounding the 2019 Auckland Pride Parade.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: The question of whether police can wear their uniforms in Auckland's Pride parade next year has caused a huge row. Some sponsors and supporters have withdrawn because of the ban on uniforms. Uh, about eight or nine. So far, I think most with the rainbow tick indicating the organisation is a welcoming place for people of diverse gender identity and sexual orientation. Sissy Rock is president of [00:00:30] the Auckland Pride Board, and she's with me now in our Napier studio. I think more. Good morning, Kim. How is it going? Are you sticking with the uniform ban? Oh, we're we're sticking with the idea that there are voices that haven't been heard. And, uh, we're not leaving anyone behind. Let's not be me, sis. Are you sticking with the uniform ban? Yes, we are. And there is nothing [00:01:00] that would make you change your mind, no matter how much sponsorship you lose. Uh, the sponsorship is not, um, a big issue for us. How are you gonna pay for the Pride parade and the Pride festival? Well, we've already got to give a little page going. Um, the community are really rallying around, and, uh, you need 100,000 right? Yeah. If we're gonna do a parade like it's been done in the last, uh, couple of years, how else would you do it? We could have a smaller grassroots parade. Uh, more [00:01:30] community involvement. A smaller parade would seem to be a backward step, don't you think? Well, it all depends who we think is, um, stepping backwards like, um, what I'm interested in. And I think what the board is interested in is the voices within our community that haven't felt visible and haven't felt like that. They've been able to, um, identify with pride, and, uh, they're all saying, Hey, you know what? I've never marched in pride, but if we're going to get one, that's really community based [00:02:00] here, that's really about our values. I think I want to be in it. So who knows what might happen? Is this the trans community you're talking about? It's not just the trans community. What other parts of the community is it? It's, uh, it's a broad range. Actually, we're made up, you know, there's many colours in the rainbow. And I would say, um, that, uh, young people people with, uh, disabilities trans people, Um, you know women. Um, people of colour Maori. Uh, poor people are all saying, you know, we want this [00:02:30] to be about us as well. Good Lord. If all those people had a vote about what the parade would look like, it would be impossible to have a parade, right? Yeah, I think that, um, you know, we are as a board, trying to take a pretty middle ground. I mean, there were There's a big group of people saying we don't, um, feel comfortable with the institution of the police, and I think that that's a really important distinction to make that, um, you know, I've not heard anyone say anything about, um, [00:03:00] Rainbow Police people. We want them to be able to be visible. We understand how hard it's been for them to internally fight for their, um, struggle to wear their uniforms and their own institution. But as an institution, it's not there yet by its own admission. Um, you know, in 2018, Tracy said, uh, there's truckloads to still be done. And, um, you know, it's we're saying, Well, you know what? What can we do? That's a middle ground that can allow we We've asked you to to [00:03:30] speak up. You've spoken up. We're not going to ignore your voices. What about if we look at what's happening internationally and a lot of police are wearing uniforms as a nod to, uh, understanding that there's still more work to be done and, uh, showing that they care? And and we thought that this could be a way forward, but it wasn't well, no, it hasn't been a a way forward, and it turns out that the reason it's not a way forward is because of a of a minority of people. Um, [00:04:00] spokesperson seems to have been Mike from a group which wants to abolish all prisons. I mean that that has been one of the voices. What are the what are the other voices? Well, at our community, there were a lot of, um, you know, middle aged women, maybe even elders, uh, standing up and remembering the work they'd done as treaty workers. There are a lot of young, um uh, uh, gay men who are speaking [00:04:30] up and saying, you know, if it's not about all of us, it's about none of us. You know, these might be, um, small voices but they're negatively impacted. And that's what we're about. We're about, um, making sure that, uh, you know, there is space for for everyone at the table. Your material to see your online material says the Auckland Pride Festival and parade would not be possible. Without the support of our family of loyal sponsors and proud partners, [00:05:00] you no longer have that support. Well, um, it might not be possible in the current form or there might be sponsors out via you want us to step into the places where all those big Corporates have gone. Not only big Corporates, Ponsonby Business Association. You've lost Rainbow New Zealand Trust you've lost. You want people to step up and replace them. Uh, people who want to, um, be alongside us with the values [00:05:30] that we hold. I think there's room for that. I think it's, um I don't think you can have your cake and eat it, too, because simultaneously you have said the Pride parade is so much more than its corporate sponsors or government institutions. Do you think that the way it's been means that it has not been so much more than its corporate sponsors or government institutions? and you need to go back to basics. I think that there's a, um, community feeling [00:06:00] that that has happened at our broader, um, meetings that we've had. We've had a lot of community who, uh, not one focused on the police, but just talking about the relationship with pride, where there's been a lot of concern that we've gone too far into the sort of corporate PR marketing. And, um, not enough visibility of, um, queer people that were certainly, uh, a lot of the, um, conversations that were happening. I mean, these are difficult conversations to have because people have different [00:06:30] opinions. It's almost like all liberation movements. If you regard the gay liberation movement, gay lib as a liberation movement, all liberation movements fall apart and devolve into factionalism. This is what's happening here. I. I guess that it's, um, seeming like people are taking sides rather than, uh, looking at having, uh, conversations and different opinions. Oh, well, you know, people are taking sides. You've seen the social media. [00:07:00] You've seen the online stuff. It's outraged. Yeah, I felt I felt it. I felt that stuff There are. Everything's falling apart. Well, it's kind of, um regrouping it. It could I could think that I could say, Oh, it's all falling apart. But I am so heartened by, um, all the people in the community that are rallying around and that are saying this is an opportunity for us to rebirth, pride, to reclaim pride. It's bigger now to reclaim it. [00:07:30] That's the question. Who's reclaiming it? Uh, a whole group of, uh, people in the community that work every day with, um, inside queer communities, young people. People who haven't felt like their, um, voices have been at the table. I mean, I think that, um it's fair to say in in inside our community, there's a hierarchy that's, uh, the same as in, you know, mainstream society. There is a group of people at the top. How long have you been involved in the Pride parade? [00:08:00] I have been the, uh, chairperson since the a GM in July, but before that, I've been involved off and on over the six years that it's been, um, operating in different ways. I've put on a lot of events. Um, and so at what point did you decide that the police in uniform was not appropriate? That was a very recent decision. But you said you made that decision to ban police in uniform [00:08:30] based on your principles. And I can't see my principles changing. You said so. You just discovered principles. No, I, uh the principles I was referring to with the the the principles around wanting to make sure that, um, marginalised voices are heard. I. I didn't feel like I could, uh, hold a Hoy. I facilitated that. Ask people to express themselves to hear that pain, the pain that even, um, police in the room were saying I'm embarrassed. [00:09:00] I feel like I need to apologise for what I've heard. And then, um, ignore them. That that was the principle. I felt like I, uh, and and the board, too. We all felt like, Hey, we've heard these, and we can't say Well, thank you very much. Um, we'll do something about that in the future. We felt like we needed to make a small kind of, um a token, a gesture that would show that we are, um, wanting to, um, you know, move forward with with everyone. Why is it a token gesture [00:09:30] to, as Georgina Baer put it, shove the police back in the closet. You've got a whole lot of LGBT Q i officers who, as Georgina Baer pushes, have fought so hard for the right to wear their uniform in the pride parade. And you're saying that's no good now? Yeah. I really, um II I really feel for those, um, officers and and that's we would really [00:10:00] like to sit down on the table with them, But you've sat down at the table with the police for months and months and months and got nowhere. What are you going to say to those officers? Um hey, what? What What would it take? Um, how can we get back at the table? What? What would it look like? You know, we don't want to uh um stamp on your man. You know, we are looking for some way that you, as individuals, can still be visible, but your institution that you are are working for, [00:10:30] um, doesn't get, um, free PR as if it's AAA fantastic. Um, institution When? Clearly it's not, but everybody gets PR. It's a piece that I'm reading from your publicity. The 2019 Auckland Pride Festival and Parade offers a range of sponsorship opportunities that can be customised to achieve your organization's specific marketing objectives. [00:11:00] Now, are you entirely in favour of the big banks? Maybe next year the big banks will be ruled out. Should they ever front up again as a consequence of this fro? Yeah, well, they've ruled themselves out. Well, that's arguable. I mean, I, um I've got I. I think my role as chairperson is to try and find balance to try and find a way forward. And, um, I'm trying really hard to, uh, listen [00:11:30] and not be argumentative. And, um, I'm open to sit at the table with anyone to find ways forward. That's what I want. We all want a pride I I don't want You're not happy to sit down at the table and allow the police to wear their uniform. And yet you were happy to have NZDF wearing their uniform. Well, um, this decision was made after the police have made an application. Um, the [00:12:00] defence force haven't made an application yet, so I, I don't wanna kind of get out. They make an application because they've decided that if you won't let the police go in their uniform and they're not joining in either. Yeah. And I guess that, um, it it it's like I'm wondering, uh, the police are are are quite, um, firm, aren't they? It's just, like uniform or nothing. And, uh, we're just hoping that that they could be Well, it [00:12:30] would feel like a retrograde step to them. Right. They have embraced the pride parade. They've been marching in their uniform for the last four years, and all of a sudden they have to be un uniformed. How would they see that? Put yourself in their position. And I have, um you know, I really do feel that, um, discomfort and and I guess hurt and pain [00:13:00] that you would feel when you fought for something hard one, and then you feel like it's been taken away from you. Um, but I I've got to keep a bigger picture in mind. That's around the whole community and the police as an institution and who it's not serving, and we can't leave people behind. We've got to, um, find ways when it comes to the increasingly sliced and diced identity politics that we're looking at now. Is there [00:13:30] a bigger picture? Because I, you know, I'm looking at my texts now, and they are saying, for heaven's sake, the police have been our friends as much as our enemies. There is no abolish the police mood here, let them take part. Uh, we we want the police to take part as well in their uniforms. Well, we're we're saying, um, not [00:14:00] in your uniform. I mean, other people are saying to me to see so much talk of inclusiveness that we exclude police in uniform and and are we prepared to, um, put the police in uniform above other voices? Are we saying that that's more important, that it's OK for us to have the police in uniform because that makes us feel more comfortable than it is for us to hear about people who have experienced humiliating, um, you [00:14:30] know, episodes with the police who are, um, withdrawing who are feeling how many of them to see? Because at some point in time, painful as it is, majority must rule. And judging by the response at your meetings and judging by the social media and judging by the response I'm looking at here, a majority of people who are LGBT QI a in various degrees who knows are saying Let the police march in their [00:15:00] uniform. You've been overtaken by radicals. I, um I I just I find it so hard to understand why a community that, um, has often been the minority voice is all of a sudden getting into this idea of the majority voice. And, um, I don't think that, uh, we've been, uh, overtaken by radicals. There's no, um uh, surprise element [00:15:30] here when, um, we've been very transparent as a board the whole time about what we're doing inviting people to participate in the conversations. And now people are very engaged. So I guess it's a very positive thing that we've got a huge membership that are very engaged. And, um, are, um, you know, they're letting us know that they they're not happy. And and more and more people are also letting us know that, uh, they like the fact that, uh, the small amount of, um, influence that we had We've used [00:16:00] to allow their voices to be, um, amplified, and that's actually one of the purposes of our organisation. It's in our Constitution to give voice to members of the Rainbow communities that are fighting for respect and equality and championing the elimination of discrimination of rainbow communities. A texter is saying, Would you prefer that clergy not wear clerical uniforms? Should they still want to support the pride parade? III, I think that, um, [00:16:30] you know, I? I don't I. I think the thing is that the police as an institution, have a different kind of power, don't they? They are a state, um, institution that has, uh, power. And, uh, people have exactly as people have described the institution of religion or various churches within it. Yeah, I'm, um I would say you're dancing on the head of a pin there. The point of the question, of course, is Who else would you want to exclude? [00:17:00] Oh, you ask the hard questions, don't you? Yeah. II, I don't really want to exclude anyone. I think that this is the point. Suddenly, um, inclusion, Right. Who else would you want to disrobe as it were, I. I don't want to disrobe anyone. I mean, you want to disrobe the police I. I want the institution. We we as a board and we have you know, community [00:17:30] voices are saying as an institution See what you're saying to the police is You should be ashamed of being police. We will only accept you if you downgrade your membership of the police force. Oh, I thought what we were saying to the police is, um we are, uh, really, um, pleased that the police have made all these changes and we don't want to cut you out of [00:18:00] our parade. But we want, um, you to be able to, uh, see that for everyone in our community. Uh, it's not a safe place. And, um, you know, would you be willing to, um, make a nod to them and say yes, we care. We understand what you're saying. By our own admission, we've got a long way to go. Um, let's all be in this parade together with no identifying factors. Well, they could have, uh, or I. I don't [00:18:30] want to tell them what they should be wearing, but they they they did a big, um, competition on Facebook for a pride t-shirt. So, um, you know, they could be wearing a T shirt. They could be wearing fancy clothes. But you know what would be what I would really like is, you know, for, uh, the police and in particular, our rainbow Police and us to get around a table and work out a way forward. I feel like things have unravelled too far. What do you think? No, I'm still hopeful. You know, I'm still hopeful that there is, but [00:19:00] with all due respect, you're kind of How can I put this politely? Poll? No old school lesbian was what I was going to say. You can call yourself Poll Anna, darling, but old school lesbian. And these days, you know, with the TS and the IS and the A's, it's just too hard. It's like herding cats. You know, I agree with you. You know, I think that this, um, sort of radical lesbian feminist identity, which I have had, [00:19:30] um, I've realised now and this has been something that I've seen, um, a really changing face in our community. And that's around that intersectionality where we're looking at, um, being, uh, lesbian. But also, you know, Maori or with disability And this, uh, group of people that are getting, um, behind the board and saying thank you are made up of, um, a huge different amount, including some old school lesbians, but also some young, queer people and, uh, everyone [00:20:00] in between. Somebody has said that I suspect that those who are pro police marching in uniform are allowed sis men. Is that fair to generalise? Do you think that that's the case? Well, I think that, um, yeah, I, I think that at the top of the hierarchy, and, um, I think there is a hierarchy. And I think there are a lot of white [00:20:30] men, gay men and very powerful positions, um, in our community. And And we felt that and finally, Sissy, where would the village people be without uniforms? This is so true. It is so true. How are you gonna get yourself out of this? Because I think that people have put too much on the line to back down at all. I'm I'm gonna, um, put my faith in, uh, relationships [00:21:00] and and, um, you know, the power of the collective. I'm, um, hopeful that, uh, whatever happens, we have got, um, an engaged group of people who are facing some of the issues that have been bubbling under the surface in our community for quite some time. Is your board all of the same opinion? No, we're not all of the same opinion we have. Well, we have We have differing opinions, but we, um, made a decision. [00:21:30] And we're, um, working through that using, uh, the process of our constitution. We have an SGM. If the If our membership says to us, um, you're not doing what we want, we will respectfully, uh, step down. We're not here to to fight our our own community. And intersectionality is something you're gonna have to live with. I, I think intersectionality is a really powerful [00:22:00] way to look at privilege and power dynamics. I'm not sure you can organise the parade with it, though. Well, we'll see. I'm I'm still hopeful that we'll be able to have a celebration of what it means to be a queer in Auckland in 2019. I'm not I'm not. You're not queer anymore. That's the point. What? What else? You know what? What do you think we're celebrating? Well, I don't know. Is is if if you're transgender [00:22:30] or asexuals or intersexual or is that all queer? Is that what you mean? When I'm saying queer, I'm using the umbrella term for, um BT BT IQ? Well, good luck with the alphabet soup. Oh, thank you very much. Sissy Rock, Who's president of the Pride Board Pride Parade Board.

IRN: 1259
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rnz_aunty_danas_op_shop.html
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ATL URL: 
TITLE: Aunty Danas Op Shop
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Anahera Rangitaawa
INTERVIEWER: Lynn Freeman
TAGS: 2010s; 2nd hand clothing; Anahera Rangitaawa; Aotearoa New Zealand; Aunty Dana's Op Shop; Dana de Milo; Les Girls (Sydney); Lynn Freeman; The Gender Centre (Wellington); Wellington; activism; advocate; clothing; external resource; gender neutral clothing; genderless clothing; transgender
DATE: 28 December 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Aunty Dana's Op Shop, 130 Riddiford Street, Newtown, Wellington
CONTEXT: Aunty Dana's offers a safe environment in Wellington for transgender and gender diverse communities to shop for clothing and accessories.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Over the summer, we're going to be hearing from volunteers from around the country who are contributing their expertise and time in all kinds of ways to all manner of organisations. Today we're at Auntie Dana's op Shop in central Wellington. Named for a local champion of transgender people, it offers a safe environment and an array of clothing and accessories for its clients. Anahita is a long time volunteer here, first working for a Red Cross op shop before moving to Auntie Dana's. Like all op shoppers, she loves a bargain, and she's also amazed at how generous [00:00:30] people are with donations. You can get a sense of this much loved community meeting place by looking at the photo gallery on the Summer Times Web page. I rocked up on a recent sunny Saturday afternoon, so my name is Anna Rawa, and I'm a volunteer here in a Dana's op shop. And I'm 37 year old transgender female, particularly with working with Auntie Donna, is that, uh, it's a store designed for, um, transgender gender diverse and intersex people. So obviously [00:01:00] that covers the LGBT Q I rainbow, and I thought it would be really good to put my energies towards that. Like it's helping back to my own community, obviously being transgendered, Um, we often have a lack of support in society. So, um, by volunteering here and being able to help create a community based place, which is a nice, safe space for all our wonderful rainbow people to come, um, it just felt natural. Like it just came natural. Like it was a good thing to do. [00:01:30] Just thinking if when I don't know, you were in your teens. Would a shop like this have been helpful for you and you find your way through being in my late thirties. Um, when I was a teenager, there wasn't much support around for any of the LGBT Q i people. So it would have been, um, invaluable for me to be able to come to a place like this and get information on name change and documentation and also medical information about, um, hormone going on hormones [00:02:00] and all those sorts of things like it would have been perfect for me when I was a teenager. I imagine you have some interesting conversations here. Not just that outfit looks, you know, great on you. Do you find yourself having those deeper conversations with some of the people coming through here. Frustrations and joys and heartache. Absolutely. I think it's really good that, um, our community especially, um, some of our younger community don't really have, um, safer spaces to go where it's just LGBT Q I people, often [00:02:30] society can be accepting of us and that, um, it's not as easy to be forward or open about who you are or the issues you're going through, um, with people who don't necessarily would understand. I got to say I'm a bit jealous because I think working in a secondhand shop is a really cool gig. And just before we started speaking, I was going around with my camera looking around, and there's some really lovely things here as well. So it's a It's a nice environment. It is nice. It's a nice environment, and we encourage all people to come in here. You don't have to be [00:03:00] under the LGBT Q a rainbow to come and shop here, but we do encourage that and volunteering it tends to become a family, you know, volunteering by its nature. You tend to be social, don't you? You're working with other people with joint interests and passions, you know, shoulder to shoulder sometimes is that part of the attraction for you? Part of the attraction is like you said, being social with, um, peers, especially that when we're all on the same wavelength like, um, it's nice to be around other volunteers [00:03:30] that do they want to give back. So generally we're all like minded people, and it's really cool to be able to come together and interact with each other. And also, um, it's inspiring for for each of us to motivate us on the path that we're on people. Often, I think one of the barriers for volunteering might be Hey, look, I'm a really busy person. Uh, I haven't got much time, so I'm not prepared to commit myself to anything. But with the volunteering, I don't know here, how many hours a week would you spend here? [00:04:00] Me personally. So I do one shift a week on Fridays, so Well, actually, I normally do two shifts, so we have a morning shift and an afternoon shift, so it's actually broken into two separate parts. And then, um, volunteers want they can come on the day that suits them. And so a morning shift is only from 10 till two. So that's four hours, and then the afternoon shift is from two till six to to become a burden. It should never become a burden. That's right. And also here at, um [00:04:30] if people can't volunteer necessarily their time or they don't want to do a shift every single week, um, they might have a few hours available. Um, we encourage them to come to, like a working bee event where we're doing, like organising through donations and sorting through things so they don't necessarily have to be constantly returning. But they came to a working bee that would definitely help to keep this place more organised and all the stock up to date and, um, out on the shelves where we can sell them to [00:05:00] the to the public. Working bees are really interesting because you've got a lot of objects here, So the sorting through and the placement is really important. Absolutely. So, um, the store here it's downstairs and we have in a storage room upstairs, which is obviously filled with, um, donations. But the thing is, because we get so much donations it's really important to keep track of that and to do the sorting. So we do encourage people to come and help out on a working bee [00:05:30] if they don't necessarily want to volunteer here every single week. Um, and that way we can help, um, organise and sort the donations into the, um, where they go. Well, that's great to hear that you have so many donations. Are they from a A broad group of people, Members of the public? Absolutely. So, um, I think the majority of our stuff does come from people under the LGBT Q a rainbow. But we also accept donations from all sorts of people. So there is, um, lots of people in the public turn [00:06:00] up here with donations, and then then, um, it can often be really fun to sort through them. And it's really interesting you you'll find some real gems sometime. That was gonna be my next question. What are some of the most interesting things that you've come across? Well, I've actually come across the most amazing, um, high heels. Like, I imagine we've had some that have, um, donated to a store. And the shoes are just amazing. absolutely most beautiful high heel shoes I've ever seen. And corset tops. And also, um, costume [00:06:30] jewellery. We get all sorts of amazing costume jewellery in here. Have you had any good buys yourself? I have, actually, I think most of what I'm actually from the store, and you're looking gorgeous. May I? Yeah. Yeah, Well, there's also there's a move back towards, uh you know, the recycled and the reused, you know, being less waste oriented. So I think op shops. I was wondering, worrying about them, actually there for a while. Trade me and various things, even Freecycle. Maybe they'd go out of fashion. But are you finding that there's [00:07:00] still the same, uh, interest in donating and still the same number of people coming through to buy? Absolutely. So there is always, like, even today we've had, uh, three people have popped in today and donated items, and we've also had about four people that have come in and purchased things. So there's definitely a high demand for, um, donating and reusing these old clothes and especially a lot of them that are synthetic. And we're going through this big phase of getting rid of plastic things and not checking, trying to be, um, reusing as much items as we can because [00:07:30] obviously it ends up, um, and the landfills and the oceans and stuff like that, and that's definitely not good. So I would definitely encourage recycling clothing and going shopping from shops as opposed to buying brand new like Brand new can be really nice. But I think if you're more eco-friendly, then it's, um, often better to go to shops. Also, you won't be wearing things that are trending. You'll be finding things that suit your specific style. So that's quite neat and probably [00:08:00] made to last. That's right, absolutely. For this series, I'm a hero. I'm I'm looking at a whole range of ways that people can volunteer and I guess really trying to encourage people to do so. And given that you've worked with the Red Cross and you got your passion project here as well, what would you say to people who have maybe been sitting on the fence or thinking, Ah yeah, nah. Or but one day I might get round to it. What's what do you get from volunteering? Volunteering is a really good way to give back to the community places like the Red Cross and [00:08:30] and, um, where I used to work. It's all volunteer based and without the volunteers. Then there's no Red Cross, so it's a good way of keeping the community together. And then, um, obviously, uh, second hand store is a really good way of being able to, um, access cheap and affordable home wear and clothing and second hand shoes and that, and so, um, it's really good to be able to, um, give back to the community and help them. And there are some stuff we donating. [00:09:00] Oh, brilliant. My name's glory. And how long have you been volunteering? Um, well, I've been here for a year, year and a half now And why? I mean, it's a beautiful day out there. There are things you could be doing. What? Why do you volunteer, Give up your time? Um, I've always wanted to, like, give back. So I've always been that kind of person anyway, to just give and the people who come through do you find yourself having some cool conversations and, you know, enjoying the environment? There's lots of cool, [00:09:30] but there's some explicit conversations as well, so I feel like it's like just for everybody. It's there's no specific in everything. So it's very neutral. Yeah, and, um, you can sometimes get some really cool stuff here. We were saying that we've had some good finds. What are what are some of your finds here? Oh, I'm wearing it now. So, um, you actually find, like, there's lots of fabulous clothes here, and the jewellery is really nice. I really enjoy the jewellery the most [00:10:00] you made the costume. Jewellery can be really amazing here. Yeah, um, jewellery. And also there's lots of, like, cute nick necks and and tell you how long have you been volunteering here? No, I don't volunteer. I just shop. I'm happy to talk to a shop as well. You can tell me why. Why This place is is cool to come. I think it's an awesome space. Um, because, you know, it can be uncomfortable being LGBT and shopping and mainstream fishy when it comes to transgender or cross dresses. [00:10:30] And so to have a space where they can come and shop and feel comfortable enough to try on the clothes without any judgement. It's really awesome. Lots of love and no one's like, Can I help? Because we can all help ourselves. Really? Yes, but I think it's a good space for that. Just everybody can feel like they can just come and have a look around. And also, it's fundraising for, you know, good cause for the gender centre, which is an amazing Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah. [00:11:00] So what are you dropping off today? Um, my hand me downs for the next generation and everything that doesn't fit anymore. Yeah, it was too short. Um, so you came here first of all, as a as a shop, or are you friends? I'm friends with the sisters that work here. Like Like one person was working here. And then word of mouth got out, and we all just came in. And we all love a [00:11:30] so carry on. Her spirit is it's really important. She was amazing. She was inspirational. She could tell stories of Africa, Egypt, India, and she was just She was an empowering woman. She was a really strong life force in the Sisterhood and the transgender sisterhood. Yeah, transgender advocate, um, for the last 30 40 years. So this is like predating our time. And so she's um helped to pave the way for, um [00:12:00] and generations to come. She started as like, a a cabaret girl. She she she she loves that she would be so proud. Did she set this up, or has it been named for her for her, and then she passed away. So, um, that's quite sad. But, um, yeah, it was, um, set up to memorise her and her name and all the good work that she's done for transgender people. [00:12:30] Our volunteer interview today was recorded at Auntie Downer's op shop in Wellington. We've got lots of big photo galleries on the summertime webpage. Thank you, Robert, including one for that story.

IRN: 2452
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/international_human_rights_day_2019.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004580
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089874
TITLE: International Human Rights Day (2019)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Fleur Fitzsimons; Kevin Haunui; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Mira Woldberg; Toni Duder; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Dargaville; Donald Trump; Fleur Fitzsimons; ILGA Oceania; ILGA World Conference (2019); Indonesia; InsideOUT Kōaro; International Human Rights Day; Intersex Trust Aotearoa New Zealand (ITANZ); Island Bay School (Wellington); Jacinda Ardern; Kevin Haunui; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Massey University; Mira Woldberg; OUTLine NZ; Rainbow Youth; RuPaul Charles; Russia; Te Ara Hihiko; The L Word (tv); Toni Duder; Tīwhanawhana; Tīwhanawhana Trust; United Nations; Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948); Wellington; Wellington City Council; Whakaari White Island; birth certificate; boarding school; bullying; bullying prevention; clothing; coming out; cross country; delft blue kissing couple; family; gay; gender; gender expression; gender identity; gender neutral bathrooms; grief; hair; hair style; homosexual; intersex; lesbian; non-binary; peer support; pregnancy; primary school; queer; school; sport; support; swimming; takatāpui; trans; transgender; transgender bullying
DATE: 10 December 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Te Ara Hihiko, Massey University, Block 1, Mount Cook, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello, Do [00:00:30] [00:01:00] [00:01:30] everyone and welcome to this wonderful evening you've just actually been welcomed [00:02:00] by one of Wellington's hidden treasures. Thank you, Kevin. And today is International Human Rights Day and and we sit this evening with incredible sadness in this country. So I want to take a moment and acknowledge the tragedy that has occurred on White Island. Our thoughts go [00:02:30] to those who have lost loved ones and those who have loved ones in hospital to the emergency service people who sounds like did incredible things yesterday rescuing people. But I also want to think about what's happening in the South Island and weather related events and what's going on across the Tasman with our family in Australia and the terrible bushfires over [00:03:00] there and also what's going on in Samoa with the measles epidemic. So it's an important day to day human rights, thinking about it and and the complexity and the intersectional with real life. Um, my name is Bruce Mitchell. I'm the current one of two people who represent, um, Oceania, uh, human Rights [00:03:30] and LGBT human rights organisation in the Pacific. So it's my I know, say little. Kens asked me to talk about myself. So I'm an intersex person. I'm a non-binary person, and I'm a queer person. And in the context of tonight, with our coming out stories, um, I came out to my parents 40 years ago and like lots of the stories of that era, it didn't go [00:04:00] well. Both my parents burst into tears. Um, they saw me being a queer person as a tragedy. And I think tonight will experience a little bit of the same of that. And and I think we'll have some narratives that are quite different in terms of where planet Earth is now. So a great pleasure to invite, um, to the stage. The ambassador for the Netherlands, [00:04:30] Um, who is hosting this very, very special function tonight. Mayor, Um, please welcome. So, [00:05:00] [00:05:30] [00:06:00] [00:06:30] [00:07:00] you know, in thank [00:07:30] welcome all and and really, thank you very much. First to Kevin and trust for your beautiful performance and your participation in this event tonight, I'm indeed the Netherlands ambassador to New Zealand. I'm standing here in a very like, if I'm going to do something technical, but this has nothing to do with me. But this is that, um this [00:08:00] is, in fact, like it will be recorded and I stand here. But I want you to not feel any distance except of this computer screen. Um, I would like to thank of course, man. Also for the for the introduction. And of course, Manny and Kevin are the co hosts tonight we are hosting. We are co hosting this event on this very important topic on the 10th of December, International Human Rights Day, and I would like to thank also very much. Also [00:08:30] Councillor Fitzsimmons, who was so kind today to tell her personal story and share that with you. And I really hope that also there will be some participation from the room later onwards and Tony Door as well, who is also willing to share a personal story, which is, I think, very crucial for the topic that we discussed today. It's not about like technical human rights issues about something that's far [00:09:00] away from everyone. No, it's about, in fact, like living and real human beings who struggle in a situation where sometimes, like the state, is not accepting the rights of all people. But it's sometimes also a community, and we will see that later today. Of course, in the document documentary I have the privilege and I just wanted to highlight that before I also say something about Human Rights Day. But I had the privilege [00:09:30] to work already with Kevin Amani around the IGA World Conference in March 2019, which was a huge success, especially also by your tireless efforts to make and to be really inclusive in the organisation of the conference, especially in facilitating the participation of a lot of LGBTI participants from Oceania like from far Away like Pacific, [00:10:00] who have never ever attended international conferences who had no opportunity to share their stories and their experiences with other activists from all around the world. And I think that that was very specific on this particular conference in Wellington, that that was made possible and that I think is very important to cherish. And I'm very happy that also there will be later on a conference, a regional conference later this year in Oceania in New Caledonia and I really would [00:10:30] like to call upon and that's what we do also as the Dutch Embassy to include as many participants from all around the Pacific to be to be there. The event tonight is, um, is because marking the international Human Rights Day. I mean, on this day, the International, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, was adopted in the General Assembly in New York. This document was a milestone at that time, [00:11:00] and it was shortly after World War Two and promotion and the protection of human rights was on. Everyone's like mind. We really have to do something that this tragedy will never, ever happen again. But unfortunately it remains as relevant as in 1948 as in in in 2019. Actually, without a declaration, we have not been able to hold countries accountable in the responsibility [00:11:30] and commitment to protect human rights. It triggered many binding treaties and but put the human being central and not the state. Unfortunately, so signs of disrespect of human rights are proliferating and there is still a great need to Rey forces in defence of them. Next year, the United Nations will celebrate its 75th anniversary and they will launch a number of debates, but one also a global conversation about the role [00:12:00] of the of global cooperation in building the future that we want and I would really encourage everyone to really think about this. We are all here in a very crucial moment and I think of course, money also highlighted some of the current day tragedies, but also in many other countries in the world. There is still hunger, war, serious human rights violations and we are we can be part of of also building a better future in that respect. This was also one of the reasons that the [00:12:30] Dutch Embassy hosted an event earlier this year, uh, which was focusing on the future of human rights, a debate which is currently, I think, a big topic also in my own country, like, how can we make it more alive? How can we bring human rights back into the conversation again, and not in a discussion that that people try to undermine it and undermine their relevance? Um, however, it takes more than a declaration to ensure that the world in which human rights are, um that that human rights [00:13:00] are respected. That's also a reason why the Netherlands is actively together with a number of nations. And I'm very happy that I've seen my friends, also of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade of New Zealand here and we work a lot together with like minded nations like New Zealand to improve human rights treaties to make to ensure that we have special mechanisms such as the UN special envoy who's dealing with the discrimination and [00:13:30] violence against LGBTI community or or discrimination on the basis of gender identity. And these kind of mechanisms are really important to highlight what is happening. What what human beings everywhere around the world experience and that countries also are have to respond to questions of other nations to what is happening that reports will be written about the situation and discussed also in the United [00:14:00] Nations. Um, again, this is not tonight about, uh, the the an abstract matter. The film highlights real people and the serious challenges and the social inclusion uh, LGBTI plus rainbow people still face in today's world in many countries. The documentary you will also see later tonight tells the story of three families living in three different [00:14:30] countries and the dilemmas and the challenges they face with the coming out of their son or daughter. They discuss how they found out and they share their feelings or of shock, sometimes not understanding what is going on fear, but also worry about their Children about maybe safety and maybe discrimination that they will face, but also about the community that they come from and a religion. Although the situation [00:15:00] of many of LGBTI rainbow are much better in countries like New Zealand and the Netherlands, there are still a number of issues in countries like my own. Discrimination and violence remain a great concern, and many of our young people and young adults face social exclusion and bullying, which often leads to depression, self harm or even suicide. [00:15:30] Three years ago, I lost a very dear friend and colleague. He had a nice job, many friends, but he felt extremely lonely by having parents who were not able to accept him on his burial. Nobody talked about about his sexual orientation, which was so crucial of his own person. I think that this is something a struggle [00:16:00] that we all and there are many stories to be told in this respect that we still have to work on together to start a dialogue because it's not easy, Um, but we can make a difference and this is, I think, also where this documentary is all about. It's not easy. A lot of people will not always say things that you might like, but that are also real people. And we need to start a conversation and make lives of people [00:16:30] better, safer and promote social acceptance and well, being of everyone. Uh, I really hope that that will, uh, encourage that. That the movie actually really encourages this debate. Um, and, uh, look forward to also, of course, the stories of, uh, Councillor Fitzsimmons and Tony. Um And, um, I wish you a very inspiring evening, and [00:17:00] I also would like to highlight that we have. Maybe you have seen them already. Two blue de de blue kissing boys or girls. You can you can just figure out what it is. It's a bit nondescript puppet, but what is for us very important is that we I think that some of you have seen them already. They were at the conference. They were also at my day reception. And what I really would like to ask you is that to make a picture and to make a photo and share them on social [00:17:30] media also with the sign that you promote equal human rights of all. Um, with these messages, I would like to conclude and wish you a very inspiring evening, Ambassador. Um, just, uh uh, uh, thanks to the ambassador for opening this event today, and [00:18:00] it's going to be an event, which is we're going to encourage you to keep some of the thoughts that the, um ambassador has mentioned. Um, because we're also going to have a bit of a, uh, a talk as our ambassador has alluded to with some of our guests that we've invited along today. But, um, again, I want to add to the welcome to, uh that has extended Also a welcome from myself to to all the people that are here. I've got my my [00:18:30] short range glasses on, so I can't see anybody past the 3rd 3rd row. Uh, but you're very welcome. Thank you for coming. Um, the the format really is, um and I'll invite, uh, Councillor Simmons to come and take a seat, please. Ok, Councillor Simmons is a a Wellington city councillor for the southern of the city. A role [00:19:00] she has held since 2017, now has a background in the student and union movements as a leader, lawyer and activist. So we're really, really pleased, Um, that she's able as a public figure to participate in this, um, event. Now, the the way that this is going to work is essentially we're going to ask a couple of questions. Um, that might prompt some responses in terms of a parents' experience, [00:19:30] um, to coming out. And so the first question is, um, really, was there a coming out experience for you and that I should have checked that First of all, Well, ju just before I start, I just wanted to, um, really acknowledge Manie and Kevin and um Walberg, the ambassador from the Netherlands, for, um, put putting on this event. Because human rights, as many of the people here will know are are very delicate things they're not granted by states. They are won [00:20:00] by people, and they are kept alive by people. And it's events like this all around the world which actually keep human rights alive and which are very, very important. So thank you for putting on the event, but also thank you everyone for coming because even just by being here, you're involved in exercising and defending human rights and That's a very noble thing to be involved in doing. And, um so, yeah, thank you so much for coming tonight and and for putting on this event. Um, and I also [00:20:30] just wanted to start. Um, so I've got a, uh, transgender son. He is age eight. I must get that right. 8. 5. 8. 5. Uh, his name is Eli. And, um, it's interesting you ask the question about, uh was there coming out because Eli, when he was about three, would say I a boy I a boy. So he actually knew he was a boy before he knew the correct grammar. [00:21:00] And, um and And to be honest, we, um, we just initially his his father and I just initially thought that he just idolises his big brother Zach, and he wants to be a boy like Zach. And he he's a tomboy. Um, he just doesn't want me to always be brushing his hair and brushing the knots through, because that's horrible. We made all sorts of excuses, but we When we, uh, took Eli to have his hair cut short for the first time and stopped [00:21:30] dressing him in Ridiculous girl skirts and clothes that were particularly gendered. We noticed a massive shift in him as a child, uh, in a real, a new comfort. And this probably is not news to lots of people, uh, in this room, but just a new comfort and confidence even as a three year old. Uh, and it's been ever since then, really, just a lovely journey of a child. Uh, you know, growing up and developing and [00:22:00] the ways that I've also experienced with with our other three Children. So, yeah, it's, um, a quite gentle and pleasant coming out experience. I think this is one of those, uh, Rupa type of questions that I copied from on the show. Um, if you could return to the time when your child declared who they were, what would you say to yourself based on your experience? Um, [00:22:30] don't grieve that you're losing a child because that's kind of how we felt, and I feel a little bit ashamed of that. But we did did genuinely feel like, uh, we'd had a daughter and she had a name which was a favourite name of mine for many, many years that I've been saving up to give a daughter, uh, and then then we didn't. And we we did feel a sense of grief, and I genuinely don't feel comfortable. Um, that that was our emotion, but it was [00:23:00] And, uh and we've quickly moved on, and we no longer feel that sense of grief at all. In fact, um, this very time last year, I was in Newtown hospital having our fourth child. So it's a lot more pleasant to be here than being in labour. Um, I have to say, but, um, the the lovely thing about when I had Kate is that our whole family were like, Well, she's a girl now, but who knows? Which which. Actually, the midwives [00:23:30] were quite surprised by, but it was I thought it was quite a lovely, um, a lovely journey for a family who we we don't assume, uh, gender roles now. And our two year old Rosa has started saying, I think I a boy. I think I a boy and which Eli is very, very excited by very keen to encourage, but, um, yeah, so I think it's it's changed our whole family's notion of gender and the, um yeah, attitudes, attitudes to gender. Did you? Did you have any fears? Yeah. Look, we've [00:24:00] we've had, um like, like, many people in this room will know a number of things that we've come across that are issues to be dealt with. Um, for example, swimming at school is something that has been a concern and a worry and, um, has caused some anxiety. Uh, gender toilets at school were also a real issue at the beginning, um, running in the cross country because the school, for some unknown reason, divided the cross country into boys and girls. Um, but actually, [00:24:30] what we've found is that there is a community of transgender parents within the island Bay School, which is where Eli goes and other parents have. We've taken the lead on some things, and they've taken the lead on other things. So for Eli, cross country and sport is very important. Um, so we talked to the teachers about that, and it was, uh, remarkably easy to get that changed. And I think, um, the reason for that is because the of the work of many people in this room, including money and, [00:25:00] um, and and many others across the world that has made a situation where I as a parent, go to the school and say, Um my child is not that comfortable with this Boys and girls cross country thing. Can we address this? And the teachers are like, Oh, yes, it's absolutely right. It's ridiculous. And that is because of the work over years and years and years of activism and campaigns. And you know that that the movement has made it easier, Uh, for me as a parent and will be for my child and, you know, for more Children [00:25:30] in the future. And I think that's very exciting. So a pretty tough question next with the with this, and I'll just call it coming out process. Whatever it it should be called. I'm not too sure. But with this process, what would your message be to parents or rainbow people who live in repressive communities? What would what message should our government or Wellington City see to those people? [00:26:00] Well, I mean, I think probably everyone in this room would have a a very good answer on that question, and I don't pretend to be an expert on that, but I know from my own activism and work in the student movement and the women's movement that you have to expect more and you have to expect better. And if you don't get it, you have to demand it. And you have to keep going until you do get it. Um, And if it's easier for you to do that in a group or on behalf of others [00:26:30] or um, you know in a way which is less intimidating and takes steps step by step, then you know that's the way to do it. Um, we we have we are concerned about, um, Eli suffering from bullying at school. And so far, the best line that we've come up with, which works at eight but won't work at 18, is that, uh, if people tease Eli, Eli will say back to them, You want to be careful. You sound a lot like Donald [00:27:00] Trump, and you do not want to sound like Donald Trump. And Children know universally at Island Bay School, anyway, that Donald Trump is bad, and so so far that's worked. But I you know, I appreciate that. That won't work. Um, yeah, forever. And actually, I'm working with money on a, um, project which the government set up to reduce the barriers to changing your registered sex on birth certificates and money and I both on that group. And the lovely thing [00:27:30] about talking about that group to Eli is that I've I've said to him because he kind of can know and understand it that Jacinda has set up this group, and this is what it's gonna be about. And every time we go, we have a meeting, I come home and tell him about it, and he just has a renewed sense of energy and excitement and happiness. And I just think, um, you know that that that that's so important. And the rewards are yeah, so meaningful. And I know that each of you will have had experiences like those when you've, um you know, uh, achieved [00:28:00] change. Fleur, thank you so much. Um, symbolically, I have Ruth and Doug sitting here listening as well. Um, my mom would struggle, but I think you've given something that my dad would would take away and digest and think about, and he'd be pragmatic and go. You know, we can do this like this might not be easy. And I think it's a beautiful gift that you give to all of us, but an in an [00:28:30] inspirational message to parents that, um this is possible. And the and the story, I'm sure there will be people sitting here listening, kind of crying inside, just imagining what it would be like to have parents who can see you as a three year old and and honour what is in front of you. So thank you. Thank you so much. [00:29:00] The other thing I wanted to talk about was, um, coming out as a as an experience, which is not just about sexual orientation, which is the examples that we've seen tonight in the documentary. But it's also about gender. You know how you identify how you express yourself. It's also about intersex. And within that range, there are a whole you know, a number of other ways that might be particular, um, experiences in terms of [00:29:30] coming out. And so I do want you to to think about that, um, for the conclusion of this evening, because we would like you to and we haven't figured it out yet. Get some feedback. Um, from you, both as an audience. And later, um, when We have, um, food and drink after this event here. But for for this, um, particular moment, um, I'd like to introduce you to Tony Duda. Now, Tony Do is a Tony is a lesbian [00:30:00] who has who has worked in the Rainbow community since 2013 as the two IC and communications manager at Rainbow Youth. And she recently moved from Auckland to Wellington and straight away, we snapped her up to say, Tony, would you like to participate in this event? And so the, um, what we are looking at now is really just to get a perspective [00:30:30] from a youth, uh, in terms of something that they, they might be able to to pass on in terms of this event and this event tonight and so similar questions. Just a slight slight, um, different direction. So, in terms of the coming out experience for you and I'm, I'm thinking, did you have one? And for you and your parents, how was it? How How did it feel? What was it like for you? Uh [00:31:00] uh, um, I Yeah. Good question. Um, I guess for me, and it's really odd, because I feel like, um my I never I never actually came out. I never actually said the words, and I've never actually come out, which is hilarious, that I'm sitting here today. Um, I go to one to training, and I'm like, anything you need, Kevin. Anything needs, I'll do. And he's like, Well, I was like, Oh, [00:31:30] but I? I guess so. I come from a really small town in Northland. I'm very far from home called It's the Kumara capital of, um of the country. Uh, we make we make Kumara vodka. Just FY I It's disgusting. Um, but yeah. And so I grew up in a really, um, white middle class, rural upbringing. Um, and it wasn't [00:32:00] until I and I didn't have any clue what gay lesbian, let alone trans intersex, non binary or any of that was, um And so But I knew I knew I was different. And so, um, and I beg I begged my mom, um, to not send me to the to the local high school, and I sort of said to her like I don't think I would survive there, but I didn't really know what I meant by that. All I know is that I just I meant something really quite drastic. Um, and she kind of got [00:32:30] the message without even knowing what I was, what I actually meant and managed to convince my dad who was the one with the, um, to I was very lucky to be able to be sent to boarding school in Auckland. Um, and it was in Auckland and, uh, that I yeah, sort of realised that I had attraction to people of my own gender. And, um, I pursued that. And, um, unfortunately, yeah, we were [00:33:00] my my girlfriend at the time. We were, um her parents actually went to the boarding school director and told them that I was corrupting their daughter and that I was actually, um, sexually assaulting her. Um, and, uh, yeah, that was so I got called into the office and and so that when you walked into the boarding school after school, there was a notice board, and it had you used to get your name written up there. Sorry, I'm taking for ages. And, um, you [00:33:30] used to get your name written up there, and if you were gonna get a parcel and so my name was up there and I was like, Oh, my God. My mom sent my vanilla Coke like I'm so excited because, you know, and, um, anyway, I get I get close to the board and it says, Can you see So and so, um, and in the office. And so I went in there and she sat down. I sat down and she just said to me, OK, so you're you're a lesbian. I've called your mother and she's coming down tomorrow, uh, for a meeting [00:34:00] with me and the principal and your dean and I. I didn't even know that I was a lesbian at that point. Um and yeah, and then all of I don't actually remember the meeting, but my mom does, and she just said that it was a whole lot of women sitting in front of me and saying, we've never had this in seven 20 years of this and and debating whether or not to expel me and my mom. My mom was scared to drive on the motorway, let alone confront someone like, you know, So she just sat there [00:34:30] like I and I use this fondly country bumpkin just being like, I don't know what to say to these people, and, um, eventually, they decided not to kick me out. Which thanks. Um, but they decided to separate me from the rest of the girls in my year. So I was given a, um, really nice room. Actually, in the boarding school, it was the prefix room. And so it had a door that locked, and it had, um It had, like, all of the because we only had curtains in our dorm. I was I was 14 or 15. And, um, it meant that I got, you [00:35:00] know, all the perks of being a prefect. But I was just a lesbian. So that was That was pretty awesome, to be honest. So, yeah, that's my story. And and my mom told everyone else in my family. Yeah. And how did your mom react? My mom was terrified for me, and she said and my parents had split up when I was 2. 5. So, um, her and my dad never had a good relationship, but she knew that she had to tell him because, um, he was [00:35:30] very emotionally stunted. I mean, he's from He's like this white middle class dude from a rural town. That should say everything you need to know. Um, but my mom said to me once she got over the shock, and once she asked me if I was worried that I mean, wouldn't find me attractive, which I was like, I don't want them to like this. That's the goal. Um, she said you're going to meet them. The most amazing people. Um, and she was talking about drag queens, which, Yes, they're amazing. They're amazing. But, um, but actually, having worked [00:36:00] in the community and having travelled and represented my work, but also just my communities, she was right. And I thank her every single day for saying that because I like and I thank you know my communities and thank you guys for giving me that this opportunity. So yeah, that's it. I'll stop rambling. I just want to know, how did she know that we were fabulous people she guessed, based on the drag she'd met, apparently in the seventies in Auckland. Um, [00:36:30] I guess it's a bit of a tricky question, and you know that question. But, you know, if you went back to that time, um, do you think you how How would you? What would you say to yourself and give your advice to yourself Back then, I would say to not worry about being a normal gay person, to to focus on being an activist, because actually, you are very privileged in what you in your community. And, um, there are people who who aren't and you need to realise that real quick and, um, [00:37:00] and do the and, um for for them. And I would say, Don't be scared And that was the biggest thing and still is the biggest thing about going home and talking to my family is not that I'm a lesbian, but that I'm an out lesbian who goes on the news. Well, I used to go on the news as part of my role and, like was a professional gay person and unashamedly speaking about it. And not only that, but speaking about other things, speaking about being Maori, speaking about being being an ally to trans people and non-binary people and sex people, that's all very [00:37:30] uncomfortable. So not being a good gay, you know that that's what I would say to my younger self and also that the L word is problematic the Kevin just goes What shows? Problematic. So, um, let's think about it. So what would you say to that person sitting out in rural New Zealand now, as in [00:38:00] the parent or the, um and I, I think, um, yeah, just do whatever you can and what makes you feel good and and try to remember that every coming out is different, and it's OK to take it slow. And, um, you know, I think our on, you know, if you can find a safe online space, go there because that's what that's what [00:38:30] helped me as well, you know, I wrote a lot of fan fiction and found my people, So yeah, that's what I would say. Are these support groups out there Don't make me do this. Yes. There are support groups out there. Yeah. So do you want me to? OK, so what do we have we have inside out? We have rainbow youth. We have outline. We have tens. Oh, God. I've taken my rainbow youth hat off. I don't do this anymore. Um, to as well. Yeah. So there's so much out there and you can go online. [00:39:00] What about for parents? Do you Yeah. Um, the biggest thing I would say to parents is don't be scared. Can I swear? No, Probably not. OK, don't be scared to fuck up, because your your your your Your fear clogs you up and your silence says, I don't accept. You just don't be scared to just just all you have to do is love your kid, I think, and just just support them with whatever they want. I think it's as simple as that, and I think we keep trying to over complicate it. [00:39:30] But actually that's what it comes down to. So what? I think you've just given the message to the third question which I had, which is really you know, what would your message be to people who live in repressive communities? Don't be scared, is it? Well, it's really interesting because having travelled and had the privilege to be in international settings, hearing people who aren't from who are from places like Russia and Kenya and Indonesia. Actually, I don't have a lot to say to them, except [00:40:00] what can What can we do to help you and what? And I would say to the governments, like New Zealand government, um You know, it's important that you connect with the local activists in those areas who are doing the work and find out what's what's gonna help them. What's not going to endanger them? What's not gonna set back the work that they're already doing? Um, let's listen to the people on the ground in those countries because they have the answers. And yeah, that's what I would say. Um, Tony, thank you. Thank you. For what? What you have shared, [00:40:30] um, for bringing a little bit of your story to tonight. I. I think it's It's a alongside. Beautifully. What? What we've heard from the others. Thank you, Tony.

IRN: 2450
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/counting_ourselves.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004577
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089871
TITLE: Counting Ourselves - Wellington launch
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ahi Wi-Hongi; Jack Byrne
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Counting Ourselves (survey, 2019); Gender Minorities Aotearoa (GMA); Jack Byrne; Newtown; Newtown Community and Cultural Centre; Wellington; human rights; non-binary; research; survey; trans; transgender
DATE: 16 November 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Newtown Community and Cultural Centre, cnr Colombo and Rintoul Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Counting Ourselves is an anonymous community-led health survey for trans and non-binary people living in Aotearoa New Zealand. It is the first survey of its kind in this country. The survey was live from 21 June until 30 September 2018.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So my name is, um, Jack Burn. I'm a I'm a trans guy. Um, I'm a human rights researcher. Um, I'm from the west coast of the South Island, but I live in Auckland now, and I transitioned in Wellington. Um, and I'm here with I haven't got my hat on. I seem to have lost that. But, um, I'm here, um, with the hat on of counting ourselves, which is our community [00:00:30] led, um, trends or non binary health and well-being survey that heaps of you filled out. Um, this is a commute Was community led, um, research project, Um, the the Jamie who is the person who got the funding to be able to do it. Um, as a trans woman, she really wanted to be here today, but she's been away from home for about 10 days and and has some sick members. So she, um, had to fly home, [00:01:00] um, a little bit earlier. Um, and then I came on board part time to work on her. Got a community, a five week work, and our community advisory group has three people from here on it. Um, and also B. There were three people who are Wellington based, and they helped us come up with the questions and what really importantly, help with the outreach to get people to fill in the survey. So I'd ask you to say if you filled it in, but it's an an a survey, so I won't [00:01:30] do that. But, um, I can tell you that Wellington was the place that totally over achieved, and you got more than your proportion of the population, um, filled out. 26% of our respondents were from Wellington, so I don't know. You probably deserve a cap for And that means that for we had responses from people all over the country [00:02:00] and most places, that was about the proportion of the population, except because you over achieved everyone else is slightly underachieving for the proportion of the population. But, um, the youngest, the youngest that people could be was 14, and that was to get ethics approval because we asked some Really, as any of you who did it will know there was some kind of there were tough questions in there about, um, people who thought about suicide or attempted suicide. So 14 was the youngest. We could get [00:02:30] that we're allowed to ask. And we went. The oldest person who filled it out was 83. So a huge, huge range of people and the, um, regions, Yeah, it was all over the country. The, um the ethnicity mix we overrepresented and and the and the, um overrepresented Maori slightly choice that we did pacific sort about the proportion of the population and, um, Asian was slightly lower. [00:03:00] Asian Pacific participants are the are the four main groups. We divided it into that. We had enough people to report back on. And it's kind of hard, too, because we don't know what the the data about Asian participants, whether, um that's also the proportion of Asian trans and non-binary people in New Zealand or not. We don't know if if the proportions map the rest of the population in the same way. Um, but we got enough to be able to make to say some things about the experiences [00:03:30] of each of those groups that was slightly different from the others. We also, um, people with disabilities, huge proportion. A quarter of our participants had a disability. And when we use this technical term, the Washington Group short six questions that one of the ones we use because it's stats in users so we can compare against the overall population. So, um, that's why we use that. But we also asked about Neurodiversity, and when you added the people with disabilities and those [00:04:00] who are new neuro diverse, it was about a third of our participants. So it's huge. We've got a lot of disability data that we can analyse, and I know there's people who are interested in being part of of doing that. So I really wanted to thank everyone in Wellington who put such a huge effort in because not only did you get so many people to fill it out, but also, um, some of the resources we use, like gender minorities. You did poster, put [00:04:30] up posters about it around the country and just to promote, you know that and we tried to. We we used our resources and our social media stuff and places where we knew it was really hard to get. So we did. Lots of we did you know, we had posters up in on the East Coast in, uh well, we were a little bit restricted from where Phantom had billboards, but we put posters up, and we knew it was going to be harder to reach out to people who had transitioned a long time ago [00:05:00] who weren't so much on on social media. But, you know, people like Karen and who were based in Wellington for a long time. They, um, really reached out, um, through emails. People rang people to ask them to fill it out, and you could fill it out by hand. But did you know we could send paper copies out? So now I'm just gonna go move slightly over to where the laptop is. So, um, Felicia Brown Acton is one [00:05:30] of the community advisory group members, along with people who just shared their, um, words about why it was so important for people to fill out the survey that, um, we also wanted this to be really robust because we have got people that we're up against. Obviously, at the moment, we need really robust data. So we got the survey reviewed to make sure it worked for our community, and we also talked to people in government agencies to look at the survey [00:06:00] so they can give us some feedback and help professionals. And it was live from 21st June 2 days before my birthday. You can write that down if you want, um, till 30th of September. But a couple of people messaged me like at about 11. 30 on the 30th of September. So, to be honest, I let it stay open till about 10 a. m. on the first of October. But publicly, it was the 30th of September, but 1178 responses we could use [00:06:30] There were hardly any we didn't. We don't didn't have people were maliciously trying to do something to it. We thought there might be. I think it was just too long. You'd have to have been really dedicated to have stuck with it to really stuff up our responses. But, um, we did get some people who came in and then didn't come back or came in and came back later. So there were people who did it multiple, so we cleaned all that out. So we originally we started, you know, it was a bit bigger than that, but after we cleaned out all the multiple, but in that, um, [00:07:00] 1178 and lots of people spent a lot of time on it. I think the average was between one and two hours, so that's way, way too long for a survey. But we took out lots of questions at one point, and everyone kept saying, Put them back in So I know it was a huge effort from people who filled it out, and there were some really heavy things there, so immensely grateful for people for doing that. And, um, at one point we were trying to figure out the average. But we realised the person who just left their screen on for four days was stuff [00:07:30] and stuff stuffing up our average, so we haven't got an average time and you had to be trans or non binary. You didn't have to use that word to describe yourself, but we had a number of questions that identified someone whose gender was different from their assigned at birth. So and whatever word you use and living in a and aged 14 or over, and that was the ethnicity mix that I showed you there. We had a great um, I was sharing [00:08:00] some data with some people yesterday and there's some wonderful quotes we've got. Where people particularly, um, Maori and Pacific people talked about how, um, a sense of their identity that, you know, gender was part of it. Um, but it was only a part of who they were and that there was the cultural context that supported who they were. I haven't got it on this one. Sorry, but we've got some wonderful quotes in the report. These, um these were some ones that [00:08:30] were I can tell the this was a presentation for some health providers, But for Pacific people, there were, you know, were amongst our community. I guess I could say some of the hard stuff. There were more people who had been, um, faced rejection from their family. So besides people some people saying there was a lot of cultural support, there were other people talking about the hard stuff. Um, And for our Asian part, um, participants. One of the biggest thing was, um, racism and particularly, um, in public places, [00:09:00] they were the group most likely to report racism in public places. Um and yeah, I'll I'll move, move on to some of the others. That was the regions which I already told you about. But there those were the words that people, um, could give you probably can't see it from a from a distance. But you had a long list you could put for your what your gender and non binary was by far the most, the most common. Well, it was the most common one [00:09:30] after with transgender just below it. But 40% of people identified as non binary and then lots you just identified as male or female. Trans men, trans woman. And you know, then we get to gender queer gender fluid. Um, the word that was, um, a non-english word that people most likely to use the most common was so 4% of the used um, and we had some other Pacific and Maori words. But this question here, the word cloud as we asked people if there was [00:10:00] a from their cultural background was was there a term that was used to describe um, the people people like them and, um and those were the the names there. Most of the ones you can see the bigger ones are Maori or Pacific terms, but there's a few other from other languages as well. The main point from this one is that our non binary and our trans masculine participants were more likely to be younger and our trans feminine participants on the [00:10:30] average mix. They were more likely to be a little bit older. So, you know, and these were the, um, we had we grouped people into these three groups because for some of the gender affirming care, the questions, you know, we want to know the differences between, um, trans masculine transfeminine people most of the time we we. So we can also divide the non binary people it's about. I think it's about three quarters of the non binary people were assigned [00:11:00] female at birth. So our community who answered this is more assigned female at than assigned male at birth. With that, um, we don't know if that's the mix or whether that's the people we were able to reach. Um, but it was harder to reach people who had transitioned a long time ago. But there are also people who transitioned a long time ago who filled it out. So this mix does kind of seem very similar to some surveys from Australia [00:11:30] and the US in recent times. Um, we can break it down more, but you can just see, you know, the There were very few of the age groups. Our youth are 14 to 24. Unless then, our older people are people like me, age 55 plus So there's there's not that many of us at all and A and a big chunk then also in that middle group. If anyone's got any questions as we go and just, you know, shout out and or we can do some at the end. So I already mentioned the disability [00:12:00] data, and, um, this is the interesting one, but not in this measure about disability. There's six things that get measured, and we were the only one that and people got counted. If they have, um, cannot do or have a lot of difficulty with any of these six things, and we were higher for all of those except for hearing. And I think that, um, probably is partly because, um, our our group is younger and a lot of [00:12:30] people who would take that might be age related hearing impairments. We were much bigger on a couple of them and the one that was the biggest was, um, reporting a lot of difficulty or could not concentrate or remember. And we've talked to a couple of different activists, and people wonder whether that's actually related to the stress on our psychological distress on our communities. Because unfortunately, this measure of disability doesn't differentiate between whether it's something that you [00:13:00] have always had or is likely to continue to have for the rest of your life, or that something that may be happening to you at this particular point in time. But really, you know, 18% of our participants said that they have a a lot of difficulty or could not concentrate or remember, and that's compared to 2% in the overall population. Now I'm not going to go into so much detail on all the slides because this was for a much bigger presentation, and I don't want to bore you. And maybe [00:13:30] if you want to talk more about activism and action and all the results but all of the types of gender of care, we ask you questions about all of them, and there's huge levels of unmet need for all of them. The the one where there was the least unmet need. You know that people wanted something but couldn't get it. That was access to home loans. And that's because, um, partly because of the cost that once you get on to them that they are cheaper compared to anything else we're trying to get. But, um, [00:14:00] but still, almost 20% of people wanted to get on hormone treatment and couldn't. And, um, and the biggest one was, um, chest reconstruction surgery. And the reason why that was the biggest level of unmet need is because I think it was 99% of trans people assigned female at birth who answer the survey wanted chest reconstruction surgery. But it was a really high proportion. Wanted it, and lots can't get it. So we've got a huge [00:14:30] proportion of unmet need. Um, for trans women, the biggest one, was an unmet need for voice therapy and for lower surgery. Feminising genital surgery cost for all of them was the biggest barrier and hardly any. The only ones that any decent amount of people had ever been able to have been able to get it through the public health system was hormones counselling, support and mental health assessment. Everything else, um, were much much, um, very [00:15:00] unlikely that people had received through the public health system. And even for things like that, people who wanted us didn't know how to get it in terms of, like, things like counselling these images. So, you know, those first images showed people talking and saying, Please fill out the survey when we came to and sometimes they were, like, you know, quite, um, passionate ones about the things that need to change. And then we wanted to have some uplifting images in the final report. So we asked, um [00:15:30] just to imagine that the that we had things the way we wanted. So this is someone turning up somewhere, and we've got our posters on the wall, and it kind of feels like it's a little bit more welcoming. So, um, that's that image. And, um and you know, the the quotes are around things like the cost of hair removal places where it's just impossible to get access to anything that's about to change. In Christchurch, they had a wonderful mix of [00:16:00] health professionals in the community coming together, and it's going to be announced before the end of the year that they've actually got some trans health pathways. Ironically, maybe some of the other pathways in the in the country. We're struggling to keep open, but you know, they've got ones happening in Christchurch and and then people talking about the really positive things of getting on to. So for each year we had recommendations and we didn't make up the recommendations. We went and looked at things that other people had already been and other documents. And so this is actually we [00:16:30] just need real informed consent models. We need to be able to get access to all types of gender affirming care training for people and also really specifically that we need, um, Maori and Pacifica, um, models of of of services available. And this was one of the examples of you know, this person is holding out how to access gender affirming care in your region. You know, that's the wish that in every part of the country you go somewhere they probably wouldn't give it to [00:17:00] you On paper, they probably give you the link, but it's kind of hard to draw a link online and in an image, but but That's the hope that we need that. But currently, most parts of the country clinicians can't even find where I need to refer people to let alone people in the in the community. And I know you've just announced stuff here really recently, which is great. Um, so this one, this one, You know that the gaps in what health providers know And, um, [00:17:30] this one about 13% of participants have been asked, um, unnecessary or invasive questions. And I love that. When I was at a conference yesterday that, um, Kate and Molly came to like already. When you're there, people are using the data like that's what it's here for. Please use these this stuff. Um, if you want to make sure you've got the prettiest graphs if you wanna go online because there's a few that we've tweaked since they were in the report. But yes, please use the data. Take it places. [00:18:00] Um, you know, people not going to access care because they worried that they would be, um, treated with disrespect. Um, and that was, um, 20% in the past 12 months, Hadn't gone. And so then it was about, you know, training for for all types of, um, health professionals. And we we specifically put residential care facilities there. We did have a few people in aged care facilities [00:18:30] who filled out the survey, but we also identified is a group that's going to get bigger. And, um, you know, Silver Rainbow in Auckland. That's the group that goes and does training and, um, aged care facilities. Um, when they can get in there, you know, share examples of that. You know, some people, it's maybe a partner has passed. They've now gone into care. Um, maybe that's the first time they can think about transitioning. And so, you know, their organisation actually has had [00:19:00] people approaching them in aged care facilities without wanting to transition. So, um, you know, needing training there as well. And that that was one of those positive ones, you know, finally found a good GP tick. So this is the ones you know, the the data around, um, suicide, psychological distress and violence. So, um, obviously, if anyone just doesn't want, you know, doesn't want to read the list to the staff or watch [00:19:30] it now, you know, there's no worries. Feel free to, you know, to leave or have a break. Pretend you need to put money in a parking metre. Whatever. Come back if you want, but just wanting to give people that chance. Then you've probably seen these because, you know, it's been in the media. This is some of the stuff we emphasised a lot. So, you know, 56% more than half of our community people who the people who answer the survey [00:20:00] had seriously thought about suicide in the last 12 months, and 12% had attempted. So that's not a surprise to our community. But it's still very stark to see it, and, um, and then 37% had ever attempted suicide. And we know, um, that the level of stress on our community and that the impact that has on people's lives we did a particular [00:20:30] the psychological distress. Um, it it's it's a scale, and that measures predominantly around depression and anxiety. And, um, this is the one here, Um, where where people were on this. And, um, our community is the high or very high. These two bottom ones. If you add them together, that's quick math. 71% compared to what it was actually 8% with the rounding for the overall population. [00:21:00] But basically, our community is nine times more likely to experience high or very high psychological distress. And we know that you know about minority stress when you come from a community that's marginalised, isolated, um, has all that stigma and discrimination? This is this is what it looks like. But we've got some other slides around the protective things that make a difference. And there are, you know, things that really do make a difference. And and [00:21:30] and so many of the things that are locating that stress are things that other people should be getting their shit together around, like waiting list when people need to access care and, um, and people affirming and supporting us. And so the recommendations, these ones pretty much came from the, um, rainbow mental health. Uh, you know, the, um, mental health and addiction inquiry. And there was a large lots of community groups filled out a rainbow submission and, you know, they were the experts. [00:22:00] They were the people working in this area. So it's, um, Moira, um, who wrote that submission? They spoke to her recently, and it's 33 words. The first is name us Name our community as a priority. The second one is train train. All those people working in mental health about, um, our community and the support we need And the other one is obviously resourcing resourcing often some of the best initiatives coming from our communities, but resourcing for people working [00:22:30] with our communities and the substance juice from I just my really the only main one was, uh, cannabis use is a bit higher, but I think was, uh was that Oh, no, no. There are some other ones there, actually, you know, just this cannabis one is the biggest one, but the other. So these are, um, used near the following gloves. So actually, they're all a bit higher. The one also, I noticed that Jamie mostly talked about the cannabis [00:23:00] one. We were trying, um, with the quotes in the report. Um, we haven't put a judgmental thing about people's use. So someone there saying use helps significantly with my anxiety. So, um, but there was a bit more. There's more data that people working in that area would like to look at it quite a lot about people, actually, positively saying that when they transitioned, um, that was actually when they kind of sat down and got support [00:23:30] and talked to other people around alcohol and drug issues. So So for some people, transition was, um, kind of a very much linked in, and those two journeys were very linked schools. So we already know from, um, the youth 12 survey. We already knew data about young people, and our data pretty much is very similar to the youth. 12 normally a little bit worse, but but pretty much much the same that [00:24:00] the really high rates of bullying against, um, our community. So this was our was 21% to be bullied at school at least once a week, and the youth 12 data showed 19%. And that's compared to the year 12 measured for cisgender secondary school students, it was only 5% and we had 93 secondary school students. It's almost exactly the same pretty much around the same numbers as youth. 12. Um, their data is from as well. [00:24:30] It's interesting that our students are predominantly non non binary or trans, very few identified as, um as trans woman or as Trans Femine and most identified as as those other two words and lots of other words as well and the positive support you can get from a councillor and really, really, um, concerning story about, um, sharing of photos of of her genitalia and, um, [00:25:00] in in a at a school trip. And actually, that's one of the areas of bullying that was particularly experienced by Trans Woman was cyber bullying. So I don't know if I've got that that statistic here. But that was a difference for for trans Trans woman. And there are, you know, there were positive examples of what's happening at school, but it's, um, it seems quite sporadic or people saying we used to have a group. It's not, you [00:25:30] know, like it's it shows, You know, there's still a lot to happen. A lot needs to happen in schools, but people did give positive examples, too. Um, and then, once again, we looked at all the groups that have been doing work in schools and mirrored their their, um, their things around. Comprehensive sexuality and gender diversity education have ramo diversity groups address bullying the inclusive policies and practises and making sure they deal with things you know, some [00:26:00] of which are under attack at the moment. Like the stuff about single sex schools, you know, people's right to attend single sex schools, um, ability to access, whether it's a bathroom based on the agenda or a gender neutral one and changing rooms. So you know that are the areas where we need more guidance and one of the really nice things being in Christchurch last week, where we talked about that, you know, there were people there who talked about I don't know if you've seen in the media Christ College, as you know, supported [00:26:30] very, you know, traditional boys only schools supporting, um, a trans girl to to transition there. Yeah, um, the main thing that we said about sport is that really it's a health issue, too. All the media stuff has has been around, you know, trying to police trans women participating in sport. But people haven't been focusing so much on the issues around All of our all for all genders that we looked at, [00:27:00] you know, people were less likely to participate in sport, and it's a real health and well-being issue. There weren't many positive examples of sport. There were a couple, um, people who'd been supported when their teammates and the, um, the club had supported them when someone else had complained. But mostly it was the difficulties in sport. So the discrimination 12 3rd had experienced discrimination at some point in their lives. Or, um, [00:27:30] and if you had experienced discrimination, you were twice as likely to have attempted suicide in in the last year. So that's, um, we pulled out that data to show that you know clearly the link between minority stress, you know, discrimination and the impacts on our health and suicide attempts. Um, and lots of people didn't disclose at work 6 to 57%. They worried about being discriminated against, and they didn't tell other people at work that they were trans or non. [00:28:00] And so this one, this recommendation was like we all know, like trans and non-binary, people are protected under the ground of sex and the Human Rights Act, but it doesn't explicitly say gender identity or gender expression. It's important to have that, but we also need resources. So if you do get shit at school at work in any other environment, you can actually say, Look, there's this material that says You can't do that like if If the government's going to say we're already covered, we'll put some [00:28:30] teeth behind it and some information behind it So it's not up for question. So that's the the the the training and resources, And then we particularly put one there around police because we had some data about people's experiences with police, and so that was one group that particularly needed some training. We did ask people about, um, experiences in prison, but the number of people wasn't large enough for us to be able to break down that data. So I think, yeah, it was [00:29:00] we weren't enough people who were in prison. We tried to get into prison to to get people to fill it out, that we weren't possible to do that. It was hard because it was mostly online and it's really hard. You know, people in prison don't have access to online surveys, but we had other attempts weren't successful. But I, um the safety and violence is the other hard stuff, you know, this is this is a really clunky question, you know? Did someone try to have sex with you against your will since [00:29:30] you were 13. The reason we asked it is because we had some data someone else has asked it and another survey so we could compare us to the overall population. So a third of us, almost 32% someone had had sex with us against our will since we were 13. And that's more than four times the overall population. That figure was higher for trans women. Trans men non-binary all of us. Each of those groups have experienced that type of rape [00:30:00] and abuse more than whoops than women overall in the population or men overall in the population. And and if you had experienced that, you were twice as likely to have attempted suicide in the past year than people who didn't report that, so it's like these are the things that need to be addressed, you know, discrimination, violence against our communities, to be able to protect us and our health and our well being. And this one here about [00:30:30] you know, someone who's 14 years and had nowhere to go, it was there was no place within their school to be able to talk about an abusive relationship. And they said, surprisingly, only got those answers when I approached my local youth group, not ideal, that I had to join a church to get sex education. So that's to get information about what is abuse and what isn't, and and people's concerns about whether, as a non-binary person, they would be able to access a rape [00:31:00] crisis centre so that the need for, you know, clearly inclusive services. And, you know, that's again. It's actually having the services that recognise our specific experiences and also training and guidance for all agencies and some wonderful things. Like people from, um, help in Auckland came to our launch in Auckland like there are, um, you know, people working in the sector who are really keen to work and support [00:31:30] our communities, the identity documents, Um, hardly any of us have got the our our correct agenda on our birth certificate. 83% of us haven't so That was, you know, important one that we've you know, we've conveyed to the you know, the minister who's looking at changing birth certificates, and so we just, you know, clearly stood in support of the campaigns and the community. [00:32:00] There's someone filling out submission, um, around the bell. And, um, and the need to provide a non binary. You know, the biggest group in our community are non-binary people, and we have no non-binary option on birth certificate. So the need for non binary gender marker option accessible administrative process based on self declaration. We've also got this one about the recommendation about trans and non-binary refugees and asylum seekers. We had, [00:32:30] um, people who are refugees and asylum seekers who filled out our survey and that recommendations come from it's already been made in other spaces. You can't change your name in New Zealand unless you're a permanent resident. And, um, you can't change your gender on any document until your refugee came has been accepted. So and most many people who come here seeking asylum will never be able to change documents in the country they come from. Yeah, [00:33:00] the material hardship one. There's there's two other measures on this that, um, these are the four main ones. But on all of the measures of material hardship, there was a lot more material hardship, um, in our community. So this is this is measured in the general social survey So in the last 12 months have you done any of any of the following things to keep costs down? And, um and we had done things like, you know, cut back on trips to go to the shops or local [00:33:30] places, repairing things, putting up with feeling cold, gone without fresh fruit or vegetables. So those are questions. They are used to measure material hardship, and the group that was the most likely to experience that was people with disabilities. So amongst our in our communities and family farm, um, a positive one. If people are told that, um, someone in their family that they were, um, trans or non-binary more than half [00:34:00] said 57%. That said that most all of the people they told were supportive. So, um, and if you are supported by at least half of your family or you are almost half as likely to have attempted suicide in the last 12 months, so that means you know, that family support is a protective factor for us. And, um, and there was, [00:34:30] you know, people's experiences have been totally cut off from family through to, um, people who found a place for themselves. and their family. Um, I like this one. I just remembering. Now I need to be reading things out for the audio, so I'll read this one out. My pronouns and gender identity don't translate well into my cultural world. So when talking about my pronouns, it can get tricky. But I found a peace within myself around that, and I'm OK with it. And and [00:35:00] other people, you know, cut off. Did I put I'll just see whether I didn't put it here, but oh, God, I just quite a lot of us appear. So I like that. And and the the section on that, I'll just find it. And the other bit was, um quite a lot want kids as well, So I have to take my glasses off to read that, uh, mhm do do do do. [00:35:30] Oh, yes. Almost one in five people. 19% on a start with the ones do. I can't find the one that says how many are parents, but 4% had been pregnant since identifying as trans or non binary. Um oh, yes. One in six people were [00:36:00] were parents, 16% and 90 almost one in 5 19% of people were definitely like a child or more Children. And the thing that was really interesting is that Maori were much more likely. So almost a third of our Maori participants were definitely like a child or more Children. So, um, yeah, it was one of the things that I know. Um, people from the project were interested in cultural connectedness, um, or community connectedness. [00:36:30] So I am proud to be trans or non-binary person. We had a third of us strongly agreed with that, and another 29 somewhat agreed. That's over half of people, to some extent, agreed with. I am proud to be trans or non-binary person, and I think it's really important. We say that because I was in a presentation morning where someone, a health professional who's really supportive generally said, um, no one chooses to be Trans. [00:37:00] And why would you choose to be Trans when you look at all of this? These negative statistics and I think, um, well, that's the experience of some people that it doesn't feel like a a choice to them. It feels like, you know, born this way for some other people, there's a very active actually I grab this and I run with it, and I'm really, really happy about it. And I'm proud. So there's There's a mix of things there, so I think whilst saying that some of this [00:37:30] just feels like it. It just it's there. It's who you are. I don't think we have to deny the pride that we have, either individually or in our community. So, um and and you know, we're a community under stress, but we're doing a hell of a lot of support for each other. 58% provided a lot of support for other Trans or non-binary people, and almost the same felt connected to others. And I know that the people who felt connected are more likely to see the survey. But I still [00:38:00] think, you know, it's it's positive to see that, Um, or here's a Wellington one. Yeah, if you're very connected to the trans community in Wellington through volunteer work, maybe that's at the op shop. It's important to me that young trans folk never have to deal with any of the internalised issues that held me back from coming out for so long. Um, then harder for someone in a small town. I don't really get to meet other queer people, let alone trans or envy people. It's a bit is isolating [00:38:30] and people really valuing that there are other people that are very visible and also that comment. I'm so tired, and I understand that one. That's probably why I lost my mobile phone today. So these are some of the, um, differences. I think I've gone through some of those. The higher rates of mental health, um, issues for young and disabled participants, um, disabled people. Also, higher rates of discrimination, violence and hardship non binary were less likely [00:39:00] to to report positive experiences with with no accessing health care. Often, there was a real real, um um concerns about being not being understood, not being believed, Um, you know, by by health professionals, um, and trans men and not and Trans Women were more likely to say that, you know, since identify as trans quality of life had improved, that was less common with with non-binary people. I think [00:39:30] I I've talked about Asian and Pacific participants, and when we looked at everyone who who wasn't European, everyone who wasn't if if the typo, if If you had a strong sense of belonging to your ethnic group. You are less likely to have considered suicide in the last 12 months. So this this is the beginning of us starting to look at some of the data about connection to culture and how that that that supports people's health. And we're about [00:40:00] to do, do some work gonna next week. We're spending half a day in a, um with on a project to sit down and look at the data they've collected about, um, and cultural connectedness and and material we've got and see if together it can support. They can support each other and and painting a picture. And this is like resource US resource peer support and other well-being initiatives that are led by our communities [00:40:30] and including those developed by disabled people, Maori and Pacifica, peoples, Asian and other ethnic minorities and refugees and asylum seekers. So the people doing the work within particular parts of our community that that's where we need to get the resources and this image has got a trans flag at the back and a picture of lots of different trans and non-binary people and maybe some of their family who knows, um, of different ages and ethnicities and [00:41:00] that wonderful poster of the background Trans people have always existed. So that was that was us. Um, you know, our project team. I'm trying to see who they all of us are based in or in or in, um, Auckland. Some of you know, Tommy, because he lived here for a long time. Tommy provided lots of safety and support. We, you know, we had a little phone that I carried in case [00:41:30] the people. There was a number on the survey that people could ring us at any point in time. We didn't have a big budget, so it was the cheapest phone we can at the and it was, um, really hard to use, but I think I only ever got two calls on it. But we had it there as a as a as a backdrop. And, um, and he was there for support around how we phrased the questions. So I said B and, um, Tai was as well as he's based here in Wellington. B, Tai, um, [00:42:00] and and all here from Wellington on the community group. Um, Karen's name is listed there. This gender ally who did that? Um, editing of the report and put lots and lots of time into that. And, um yeah, thank you to anyone who sent us comments about how we can sort of make the questionnaire better. Um, and you can get a hold I've got like, [00:42:30] I think about Is this the end of your ones? Um, the ones out here. So there you've got a couple like two here that are left from your box that you had and I've got about, um I think I've got about 10, maybe 12 copies of the report and particularly, we want them to go to people and organisations who can use them. But, um, you can also find it online. And, um, I've got a hand up page the question, [00:43:00] but I can't remember. Um, Did you What? Sexual orientation in the survey as well, Because I could imagine that would be another area. Some people. Yeah, we've got the sex orientation data. It's just gonna We're gonna need to do more analysis of it, because we didn't just ask people. Um, we asked people all of the people that they were attracted to So it's a sexual attraction question [00:43:30] mostly. And, um so it's not as simple because we just thought Partly we asked it that way because we knew from other surveys and other things that we've done that often you would get. For example, a Trans woman who has who identifies the gender as female has identifies that that that she has sex with men and writes down her sexual orientation as gay [00:44:00] in other surveys. And we've had. So we just thought if we just we wanted to get more into the the mix of it. So, yes, we've got data, but it's quite complex that we haven't analysed yet. But we also got heaps of data. We asked people, um, has your sex life changed in any way since you identified as Trans or Non-binary? And then it's really interesting in terms of people's relationship to their bodies, both the hard stuff and the really good [00:44:30] stuff. Um uh, quite a few Trans, you know, some trans people saying having a relationship with another trans person is one of the most affirming things they've had, um, and that to be seen as fully as who you are, whoever it's by is the best sexual experiences that they ever had. Um and then also the stuff about the how the you know the impact of discrimination on you know, for some people, it made it harder to to find partners. Um, [00:45:00] so it's complex. It was a so so that's more about partners. That's more about sex and sexual behaviour. And we've got a lot of data about sexual attraction. But I can't tell you how many right off the top of my head now identified as a different label because we just kind of thought that was too simplistic to explain it. So we've got more work, and I guess that introduces me to. The other thing is that we've got lots more data. We'd love people in the community who want to help us analyse some [00:45:30] of that data. Well, you write it up, we've got the data, we can analyse it. But then people are saying, Well, what does this mean? And whether that's gonna be, uh, um, academic articles for people who are into doing that or whether it's going to be creating community resources like I already I talked to states about what's the first disability resource we create you know, I'm getting together a group of people to talk about doing that. We haven't got much funding. Our funding is pretty much, um, drying up now, But we've [00:46:00] got a commitment to keep doing the work, and we're going to keep trying to find funding so that at least we can keep, um, coordinating people to write things. And it's been great that people have created infographics already with stuff and are and are using it. But anyone else? Yeah, continuing that. One of the reasons why I asked that was the complexity of identifying mental health and addiction service needs because the research that Frank Peer, um and others did showed that by and pan communities [00:46:30] have higher depression, mental health and addiction abuse issues than either gay or straight community. So when you pile on top of that, the gender identity issues that you're going to have a really complex set of needs, and I think we just know whatever the sexual orientation of people at our community, those rates are extraordinarily high exorbitantly, you know, they, you know, really worrying concerning [00:47:00] and need attention. And then we could drill down more below that. But you know some of those particular things that are stressed are ones that trans people will experience. And non-binary people, particularly those trying to access gender affirming care, are going to, you know, those those are specific to not being able to get the health care that people are wanting. Is there anyone else who had any questions? The, um So the survey didn't focus specifically on something known as sex? [00:47:30] No, no, because that definitely would be something worth studying, because I'm pretty sure there's a large proportion that use P quite regularly. Unfortunately, Yeah, and it's based around them having sex while that whole particular side of it is quite different. Yeah, So I think we have got P as one of the as the people's use of it as they [00:48:00] see it. But yeah, so and I guess the only thing I could say is that for any of the questions we can compare, you know how people are answered one question with how they answered another one so we could see it for people who are more likely to have answered that whether there were the other. But the numbers are relatively small, so I don't know how much we would be able to tell. But that's the other thing we can do. We can, you know, compare to There's lots more ways we can compare [00:48:30] the data that we haven't done yet. Um, yeah, and and I guess it's just the final. But I'd say is really we want you to use want to use as an activist tool. We can use the data about, um, legal gender recognition just to show actually, heaps heaps of people are non-binary. We don't actually have that option at the moment. So no matter what you do to change the current process, it's not gonna be good enough for the for a huge proportion of our of [00:49:00] our community to identify as non binary. Um, we can use it to show just how much people are needing to access gender afferent care. And that's not been provided in the local DH B. We can yeah, about the sounds that you guys, you said you've got a lot more data that could be analysed and put together in certain ways. I'm wondering at this stage and your opinion whether it would be, um, better to I imagine it might be better to really all the data that you've got [00:49:30] to get the most out of it. But I'm also wondering how you thought it would be if there were smaller studies done or regional stuff done to build a look around, I guess. OK, so what's your opinion about the bye? And then other people like, uh, he might have thoughts on this as too, I think, you know, like for ages. We we had our stories, you know? You know, you wish that change happened [00:50:00] from sharing the personal stories, but, you know, numbers does have impact as well. So this was about getting numbers and then because we had an open boxes where people could share things and some people wrote heaps. So we've actually got stories there as well. I think we've got enough evidence now. I think it's actually about using it to bring about action. So even the bit about writing academic articles for that us. That's about action, because some health professionals, if we want to change [00:50:30] their behaviours, we have to get things published in medical journals. But if we want action on disability issues, for example, well, maybe the first priority is to get some of the resources available in an accessible form that people in the community will use. You know, like it's whatever the action is, we change is needed. What is the most important thing? But I personally, you know we can. There's always lots of questions, like the one you raised, you know, there's lots more we could ask, but there's enough. You know, there's such [00:51:00] a long list of things we need to action already. I think we've got enough data. If you can't find it in the report, you wonder if there's something just email us and we'll tell you if there is or not. But, um, I I'm really keen to hear what the activism people are working on and what sort of, um, because we asked people that before, What data do you need for your activism? That's why we had such a long survey. But now, then, you know, if you're working on something, you need a few statistics for a submission. [00:51:30] You know, I should know this the report quite well. I feel free to email me and say, Which pages do I find that on? Or there's people in this room you know who are doing that already? I think gender minorities could probably tell you it's on this page or that page. Um, I don't know. What do you think are here? You know, where Where do you think we are at that balance of needing more data, more surveys and action? Yeah, I guess there's always, um, more to know. Definitely. Uh, and, [00:52:00] yeah, there's always more questions that we could have more things about. And I think that there's like you said, There's heaps to work with here, So it's really cool. And I guess that people, the tricky thing is that, like it, it takes so much time to go. You know, I guess it's a huge process to get a simple like, whether it is a housing for just the larger region, Um, about like, precarious housing of a lot of [00:52:30] things. But, um, it's like a 25. It took us so much time in, and it's not perfect. So it's kind of, um I think the real important thing is that if you're gonna do the research projects to do them really really well, so you get little data that's very useful. And you don't waste people's in the the stories about about their lives. Especially if you're asking them. Of course. So, um, yeah, I think you know, more research is always good. [00:53:00] And also, some of the research could be really linked to actions like, um, you know, finding out whether the service that the groups that we're running nowadays Are they meeting the needs of all of our communities? Or, um, I was at a, um Who was the I was at a meeting on Friday morning where someone was reporting the results of data they collected around the experiences [00:53:30] of rainbow, um, ethnic communities. Is it just in Auckland, or is it all around the country? Camille's research and, um, they've got one lots of lots of material. I think it's mostly in Auckland. They still need funding to be able to do their transcripts. And, um and some of that's about, you know, people don't go and use some of the services we already have. So maybe that's some of the stuff we do. How to improve what we've what we've already [00:54:00] got. And, um, yeah, you know, So I think I think we I think we've got the data I. I think we need to be a bit I. I would love to find ways that we stay more coordinated with each other around the country. Like these opportunities you You've finally got your, um what are they called your Your your health pathway for gender affirming care is finally online here in Wellington. Is that is that true? Or so you put something on Facebook this week? [00:54:30] Yeah, um, but, you know, some of the best practise is, you know, when the Canterbury ones come up, which before the end of the year, they have done it in a way that you don't need to have been on hormones to access chest reconstruction surgery first one in the country that's gonna be on that. And that's [00:55:00] huge for non binary people. Let's you know, they just because they've got a pathway that says that we all know know that sometimes those pathways lead to shut doors or a door that's open for a little bit of time, and then it gets shut because there's no surgeon anymore. So I think if we're more coordinated and we can share what people have been able to achieve, and in each part of the country. Um, then we can, you know, stand by each other. I'm just so proud of how we dealt with yesterday, you [00:55:30] know, like it was, you know, and the fact that you organised this and you've had way more people through here today. You organised this. You've had way more people here today than people of a diverse range of ages and ethnicities and genders than who happened to go and listen to a very highly resourced meeting down the other end of town yesterday. [00:56:00] You know, we coordinated. They tried really hard to get a trans person on nation, and we always said no, like that level of coordination amongst the community where some people would probably quite like to be on DV. We all still said no, you know, like we do. We're doing really well. I think on our activism. Um, and it's hard. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I don't know any other questions. At the end of the day, some of you have been here [00:56:30] selling soaps or zines or bunting or whatever else all day, so I don't want to keep people, but, you know, I'd love us to be Co. You know, find ways to stay more coordinated and, um, find out how I love it. That would be great. People tell us when. Even simple as tell us if you use the stats and anything and presentations, maybe I'll see if we can put up on our website somewhere where people can a form that people can quickly send and tell us that they've done [00:57:00] that, Um, they are being used a lot around the country. Yeah. Um, if you haven't already seen Pacifica Television programme which did the Pacific Awards, it was on television this morning. It'll be online. At least two of the people who got awards were from the gender diverse communities and everybody was clapping. So, um was one of the people who won awards [00:57:30] and somebody for and it was like everybody was supportive and there were sort of bits of their stories. And the reach of that type of thing within the Pacific communities is way bigger than any of these negativities that we're getting. It's just like, you know, um, So I think you know, the more stories that are positive, that the better it is for everybody speaks to the the Pacific activists I know are doing, You know, we see them in our community coming to our events, [00:58:00] you know, which are their events as well. But they're also doing so much within their own community around, um, language or around, Um um, fundraising or, um and I think for some of I don't know, I just Yeah, how do we create those space? Because we're so busy creating the spaces for our community stuff to happen. How do we create the spaces where those people [00:58:30] who support us can be there with us, But we're leading that space. And that's what I think this is. This is a trans and binary led space. Whatever words you used for that and it's a space where allies can come into. And I think we could do with a few. We don't really have that so much in Auckland. Um, I think you do some some things remarkably well here for a lot [00:59:00] of people. 25 and, um, we actually brought back and me my clothes up with, um Alex. Um, thanks for coming. I'm Alex. This is Molly and Chase. And we're [00:59:30] on the, um, gender minorities youth team. um, and this is also Harry from the Newtown Community Centre. He's done a lot to, um, support this event, um, physically happening and obviously a he from gender minorities as well. Um, so this is the first event that we've ever put on like this. It's the first kind of, like, formation of gender minorities out our youth team as a sort of thing. And, um, we've been really surprised, to be honest, but very heart warmed at, like the success of this event, the positive reception we've had from, um, both the trans community and allies that have kind of made it come together. [01:00:00] Um, so I just wanted to do a couple of thank yous, Um, so, firstly, thank you to Harry and everyone at the Newtown Community and Cultural Centre for kind of hosting us and making giving us the opportunity to have this because yeah, as I say, like, most of us are just hiding in the little den auntie donnas most of the time. So it's nice to kind of like, get out into the community. Um, thank you to all the stallholder, um, for giving their time, um, to support this great event. some of them have left, and some of them are still here. Um, thank you to a and the MA for [01:00:30] giving us the support and encouragement to put something like this on. I think it's kind of given us a space to kind of bring together as people and as friends. Um, I like to say thank you to Jack. Obviously, he just spoke, and everyone accounting ourselves for doing such vital work for our community. And we're very, like, honoured to be able to give them the space to kind of like, promote that and discuss the implications for it and obviously engage with the community responses here today and just a general thank you to everyone that's attended both presently and earlier. Supporting your [01:01:00] trans youth means so much to us. It means as activists, but also as just people as part of this community that, you know, can feel quite neglected and marginalised knowing that there is such a positive reception. Um, to us and our work and our creations is really, really valuable. Um, so, yeah, Thank you to everyone. Um, Hope you have a good evening and get home safe.

IRN: 952
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/moments_with_johnny_croskery.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004392
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089686
TITLE: Moments with Johnny Croskery
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Johnny Croskery
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1950s; 1960s; Aotearoa New Zealand; D. I. C department store; Devotion (Wellington); Dorian Society; HIV / AIDS; Johnny Croskery; Julie London; Lana Cantrell; London; NZ Truth; Peter Kooiman; Salvation Army; Sydney Mardi Gras; Wellington; death; drag; family; friends; media; newspapers; pets; photo journalism; photography; queer; reunions; show music; support; theatre; transgender
DATE: 7 August 1999
YEAR: 1999
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Wellington was quite wonderful in in those early days because we used to get a lot of overseas liners coming in and a lot of the crew on them were gay. And, um, they would do drag, too. But they were always rather fascinated with Wellington because they said they felt that it was the drag capital of the world because they'd never seen so many, um, drag queens walking around. And I can quite relate to that, too, because years later in the seventies, when I was in London, I never saw one in the street only in the hotels doing shows, but never, [00:00:30] um uh, openly sort of walking down the streets of London like we did have in Wellington. And I thought this was all rather bizarre because I, I thought there was a huge city such as London. You would have seen that, most definitely. But no, no, I remember years ago when the Dorian Club first opened. We were having, um, fancy dress balls and one of them was held up at the, um, Brooklyn Community Hall and [00:01:00] everybody was there having a wonderful time and photographs were being flashed. And we realised that the truth photographers had gotten and there was a hell of a kerfuffle then, um, drag queens running, chasing them outside, jumping on top of their cars. And I remember seeing one, um, who shall remain unnamed on top of, uh, the photographer's car clinging for dear life as it wheeled down, um, down the hill, bashing on the roof of this car [00:01:30] with a beer bottle and flying everywhere behind it was quite the most amazing sight to see. Yeah, well, I, I remember one. I don't really think it was funny, Although when I do tell it, people do seem to shriek with laughter. Uh, I think I probably mentioned that I was window dressing and being a bit of a daydreamer. I was dressing a model down on one of the shops in Lampton Quay and looking out the window, and I must [00:02:00] have been standing still for a few minutes, just gazing. And there was a bus stop just outside this window, and all of a sudden I moved. Well, there was a man, an elderly man looking in the window, and he got such a fright. I don't know if it was because of what I had done. He maybe he thought I was a model, Uh, moved. He had a heart attack, fell into the window and dropped dead. I have never in my life moved so quickly. See, I'm starting to laugh now. But this did happen. [00:02:30] I just I. I didn't really quite know. I mean, I didn't know that he had actually died until later, but he had he'd gone purple and died Another thing, which was rather I mean, I think this was quite funny. My partner and I were This is quite some years ago. We were walking down, um, Wakefield Street and on a Saturday afternoon and [00:03:00] there was quite a lot of cars, and they they they stopped at the lights and one of them pulled the window down and yelled out, Oh, look at the queers, you know? Well, II, I just thought I always thought this time type of thing was quite funny when it happened. So we just walked on and everybody in that car, including the driver, had turned around and the ones behind, too. And all of a sudden, there was this un mighty God Almighty crash and they smashed into each other because they were looking and I have never moved [00:03:30] so quickly. I thought, I don't want to have been a witness to this bit. I love show music. I think this is a thing with gay people I think they always have done. Um, they always used to be people jumping up, doing numbers, not in drag, but just doing them and prompt you at parties. Uh, I think that's when when shows were had more tunes, which people could sort of whistle and hum. But, [00:04:00] um, I still love those old shows. This is what I I use when I'm going out in drag II. I put them on to sort of give me inspiration to get ready. Um, singers. I love Julie London. I love one singer who I always used to use for drag. Not many people here have heard of her. She's an Australian. Lana Cantrell. Um, she's wonderful. She's [00:04:30] living in New York now. She gave up singing. She's a lawyer, um, for theatre people over there, she's doing very well. She came back to Sydney a couple of years ago to sing for the Mardi Gras, but she's a really wonderful, wonderful singer and I always used to use her for drag. Yeah, Peter and I met. Probably would have been in the late fifties when I was 16. I was working [00:05:00] at the D IC at the time window dressing, and he used to walk by going to the post office. What a wonderful looking man. I'm going to live with him, and I did, and I have done for the last 41 years. Uh, this is what happened. Um, we didn't go and live together until I was 21 because I refused to pay rent to anybody, so I just would save up my money, and he would save up his. So we got a deposit on a house, which we bought. [00:05:30] Um, and we've lived in the same house since, um uh, that time, which is quite interesting, really, Because we were the only gay people in the area. I think it probably raised quite a few eyebrows at the time. But now a lot of people, a lot of gay people are living around there, which is quite fun. It's It's quite a gay ghetto now. Yeah, in Newtown. Yeah. Yes. And we we've We've been living there all that time with our animals. [00:06:00] Yeah, well, my pets. Yes, I I'm rather crazy. They're They're not really my pets. They're my Children. Um, they They're Maltese Maltese dogs. Absolutely divine. I would take them on the floats when I was doing the devotion parades in Wellington. Um, they always look glamorous. They always sat in well with a white fox fur because they look the same as but they were alive, you see, [00:06:30] Yes, they they're rather wonderful, but, um very, very gay looking dogs. They are? Yeah. Yeah. It seems as though as they pass on to their reward in heaven, I seem to be blessed or whatever you like to call it with more that arrive. I think word has got around that people who can't cope with them anymore, they know that there is somebody who can, and I seem to collect them. Yeah, [00:07:00] we had a family reunion probably about five years ago, Uh, which was really quite fun. I met quite a few people who I didn't even know I was related to. But my cousin, who is a very strict Salvation Army, she said to me Well, she said, you know, she said You'll have to bring Peter because she said he is part of the family And, um, you've been [00:07:30] together now for more years and we here to remember so you'll have to bring him along. And I thought, Well, this coming from somebody from the Salvation Army is rather interesting. So he went along to and had a wonderful time. Yes, yes, we had a great time there meeting cousins and second cousins and third cousins. And I had a woman came up to me in the supermarket a couple of years ago and she said to me, She said, Do you know? She said, We're related and I said How? She said, We have got the same great [00:08:00] grandparents. Well, we started chatting away and, uh, turned out She was right, and I invited her home and she saw, um, in my hallway. I've got a lot of family photographs and I've got my grandparents, um, wedding photo, and she saw this and she was totally amazed. She said, Oh, she said, there's my mother. And here was her mother, who was about four or five at the time, and she was their bridesmaid. And she said, I always wondered where she was when she had that little dress on, because she's [00:08:30] got a photo of it, too. So this is This is where it came from, which is rather nice. I mean, we have a great time together now. She's in her nearly in her seventies, and we go out every week and, um, hoot around town and she's quite a wonderful woman. She's quite outrageous, too. Yeah, I like that. I remember somebody, a very old lady saying to me once that she used to get quite upset because she was losing her [00:09:00] friends. Well, somebody had said to her, Well, what do you expect? You know, they're in their eighties or so, but she said yes. She said, When? When you're about the only one left, you're wondering when your time is. But I think with a lot of gay people they're getting this early because so many people are dying at an early age, and I think it just makes you wonder who will be left to be 80. What I seem to do, probably because [00:09:30] I've been in Wellington for such a long time, and I know so many people I've been able to help people who have got AIDS and who really haven't got all that long to live. Um, I go and and sort of be with them for, you know, a few few days a week and, um, help them with whatever they want doing. Um, we we sit down and have cups of tea, and I think generally we once again, it's funny. We have lots and lots of laughs about [00:10:00] I. I think. I think when people at that stage they don't really care what they say, you get to hear a lot of their very personal parts of life. And I think we can make a joke of most things and and they seem to have a lot of laughs about it, which I think is so good.

IRN: 664
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/carmen_interviewed_by_jack_body.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004074
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089368
TITLE: Carmen Rupe interviewed by Jack Body (1991)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Carmen Rupe
INTERVIEWER: Jack Body
TAGS: 1970s; 1990s; Alfies 2; Auckland; Australia; Carmen Rupe; Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Dunedin; George Jorgensen; HIV / AIDS; Jack Body; Kahu Pineaha; Les Girls; Lew Pryme; Maria Montez; Mata Hari; Max Cryer; Mosgiel; Māori; Roie Norton; Salvation Army; Seahorse Society NSW; Sydney; Taumarunui; The Balcony / Le Balcon; Wellington; alcohol and drug abuse; church; clothing; coming out; community; crime; cross dressing; dance; drag; employment; family; farm; film; gender identity; history; hospitality; icons; identity; kamp; movies; murder; needle exchange programme; nymphomania; performance; profile; rape; religion; rural; sex; sex work; sexuality; snake dancing; social; striptease; tootsie trade; transexual; transgender; transition; transphobia; transvestism; venues; violence
DATE: 1 January 1991
YEAR: 1991
LOCATION: Sydney, Sydney, Australia
CONTEXT: In this podcast Jack Body interviews Carmen Rupe about her life. The recording was made at Carmen's apartment in Kings Cross, Sydney in 1991.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I think that Carmen to me, comes back a very long time ago in the early 19 fifties or really the middle of the 19 fifties, when I came to, um, Auckland for my first time, I didn't realise there were other gay men or we used to never say gay In those days, we used to say Camp a camp gay came out later on years later, but, uh, I didn't realise there were other camp men besides me around, and I then I met them [00:00:30] in Auckland. I met them doing the beat in parks and down back streets and toilets and, um, in hotels and certain bars because it was very, very strict. Those days you had to be 21 and I met these gay guys. And then we used to go to a lot of movies and a lot of films. And then I was fascinated. One time there was a very famous film came on the screen, also in the late forties, called Rita Hayworth. It was called the Loves of Carmen, and I thought, What a pretty name and [00:01:00] I didn't know anything about the loves of car. I only knew it was this beautiful lady, Rita Hayworth. And her name was Car. And I was fascinated by her because she was so exotic looking exotic dancer and, uh was sort of a car in the opera. And that's where the name came from, Carmen and I. Then we used to go to camp parties and sailor parties in Auckland, and they were all. And then I met other Maori and Islander and Polynesian and people [00:01:30] who were at these parties. And I got a fright because they had, uh, names of jazz singers like Ella Fitzgerald or Pearl Bailey. And so they decided to call me. They thought that I'd be suitable for Carmen because I was also a dancer. I used to get up and do not professionally, but just get up and dance with the say the boys. And that's where I got the name Carmen and I used to laugh at LA Years later, when I used to crack it on the street, they said, How did you get the name? And I say, [00:02:00] I used to lean over in the car and talk to the man. It was a joke, you know, but that's where it came from. from my camp friends. They called me calm and and and And the name stuck. You used to do other dance routine, too. I only I started off in the 19 fifties in Auckland. I did dance, uh, in in in Dunedin. Uh, when I was working down there working in a clothes factory, called and [00:02:30] then when they used to have a factory party once a month, they wanted some dancers. So I said, I'll get up and do the hooli as a guy and they loved it. So every time there was a party on they used what I used to love was in those days, I was about 20 or 21. Something like that, maybe a bit earlier than that. They used to invite the Air Force base. It was called then and all these beautiful guys used to come from the Air Force. So I wasn't looking at the women. I was busy looking at [00:03:00] them because they were so beautiful in their in their air force suits. And I thought, Oh, aren't they gorgeous? Of course I had to be careful, too, because I was living in the immigration hostel, and in those days, people were very straight and very square. But, uh, I still have my eye on all these beautiful guys. So I became a hula dancer and I and then I started off in Auckland by, um, a guy called, um Lou Clawson in Auckland years ago. [00:03:30] He had a talent quest in man, and I entered the show talent, quest and doing the And that's where I started off. And I came over here to Sydney and became a dancer and an impersonator. And also I learned the belly dancing from a friend of mine who was a Greek belly dancer called Rita Exotic belly dancing. And I also learned the dance of the Snakes. So that's where, uh and became also a strip tease dance [00:04:00] and took the act back in New Zealand. I wanted to do the Snake Act in New Zealand, but there's a whole lot of trouble. I wasn't allowed to bring back snakes in New Zealand in that era, so I was still not. And I can do the, uh, Maori dancing, too, which I'm very pleased. Thank you. To Mickey and Derek. Um, who taught me that the Maori action songs here? Um well I have to thank another guy by the [00:04:30] name of the late. He was well known on television in the fifties, singing with the Clive Trio, Isabell cow and and, uh, Virginia. They were very famous singers, and then they all broke up and went their own way. But came 1960 or 61 the same time as me to Australia, and he and he was taught the dance of the snakes. So I said to him, I love to learn that snake [00:05:00] dance and he said, Well, come to my place and I'll teach you. And there were two lots of snakes. They were diamond and carpet and I we both liked the diamond because they're pretty. You see them on high heels news. You see them on handbags and belts. So we both love the love, the diamonds. They were five or five or 6 ft long, and they used to sell them in the shops and, uh so that they don't do that anymore. Now, this is the early sixties and taught me the snake dancing, and I put [00:05:30] it in with my act at LA Girls Night Club when I started there in the early sixties as a guest entertainer there with off the show. Did you? Oh, yes, yes, we have to look after them. And what you do is I had two and you feed them separate times in case you might be wanted for dancing from the age and say, Look, you wanted here to dance with your so try and not feed them both the same time because what happens is you feed them. They they sadistic, uh, creatures, [00:06:00] the snakes they like to kill. So what you have to do is we have to buy either guinea pigs or live rats, and we throw them in the cage and then they kill them one at a time. And they they can swallow the whole lot and say within half an hour to say 33 mice or a guinea pig. Throw it in the in, in, in, in the in the cage, and the snake will just swallow the whole lot down. And that's when you don't really dance with the snakes because otherwise they're vomiting or they'll make a mess. [00:06:30] Yeah, so that's why you use the other snake for that. And then when the other ones had a rare. Then you feed the other one. So it was absolutely great. It was absolutely great. I had them for a long time. But I tell you the beautiful thing about them. You can leave them at your front door on the brand. And you know you won't have any burglars. They got so frightened that they went, um, they they were very, very good. I enjoyed I enjoyed dancing with them because I thought it was a novelty. They were different [00:07:00] and lots of people were so fascinated, especially the tourists and a lot of New Zealanders who came over and knew that I was dancing with the states always came to the club to see me dance in Kings Cross. So and you've got to keep them. Uh, you mustn't hold them tight on your hand. You try and let them relax and crawl over you. But they used to bring me undone in those days because they used to coil around my wig and my wig used to fall off my head while I was dancing. So I had to be very careful with keeping away from my wigs. Um, [00:07:30] you never had any trouble. I mean, they didn't bite you or anything like that once. I think if I can remember, right. Yes, I did. And today they picked them up a little wee, um, like a you know, like a and picked them up in those days. We just picked it up with our hands or anything that moves. They will snap at you. But I was told that once they do, just keep your hand, your finger or your arm very still. And they think they've got nothing let go. But once you move and they start digging in their bangs I did once, but there was. [00:08:00] I know a lot of guys who were snake. Uh uh, milk the snakes. A lot of them were just covered with bites. And I think one of them was sad, sadistic man who loved it. I saw a lot of guys who had a lot of bites on there all over their bodies, but, uh, now I was very, very, very lucky. I called my The one was called Simba and the other one was called Topaz because one was a bit lighter, like a to colour. So that's what I call them. How about the [00:08:30] um, did you do that? I did it in New Zealand, but then I did it here, too, and I and I got good at it, and I started by buying nice hula costumes. And I always think that whatever act you do, try your best to look the part. Uh, and if it's Hawaii or Tahitian or Maori, try and look that part. And so I did in New Zealand, uh, when I first started with Lou Cross and I had an old, tacky old hula skirt, But I was going to say thank you to Lou Cross [00:09:00] and thank you to that tacky old hula skirt because it got me in on the stage today. So I say, Thanks very much for that. When I came over here, we had to be our acts and better our costumes and our music because we had a lot of competition with lots of dancers here from all around the world. Egypt, Hawaii, Tahiti, Maori, English wherever. So you have to try and look as nice as them, or better so that you've got to work through the ancients. Yes, I did the hula dance here and whatever, Whatever. Whatever you know if [00:09:30] you can do everything yourself, it's great if you can drive a car. That's great. If you can do your own makeup and your own wigs and your own make your own costumes, it's better. Still, you get the more work in there because a lot of people have to rely on people to get them here and there and do their make up and and do their wigs. And I was lucky. I was quite talented. I was able to do everything myself. Um, did you ever have anybody, uh, choreographing you? What? Did you make your own dances or you say [00:10:00] you learned some dances? Oh, no, I would say that. No, I learned from other people, and I try to add things I can do myself. But I went to a lot of nightclubs around at the time. You don't see many of them now. There were a lot of Greek Italian Lebanese turkeys nightclubs because I was really interested in exotic dancing, and I was interested in strip tease dancing, which I did that I was the first stripper in New Zealand when Ray and Hasty and Happy Road opened up the 1st 30 years ago and [00:10:30] you laugh those days because people used to pack the houses, and on top of that, it was only those days. It was only six shillings to go in. I tell you, it's a bit more now, but, um, they were great days because a lot of the boys who were having parties and a lot of the footballers used to say who's already seen me trip was at the finale. I had to take my wig and brow off. They didn't know that I was a guy. They used to think that I was, you know, a female those days. But at the finale, when we all had to line up and has to say, Well, our last guest [00:11:00] here, I'm sorry, guys, it's not what you think it is. And I had to walk out and I had to pull the wig off and the bride and they used to all get a fright because before my act, I used to go around so sort of feeling the guys I've been kissing them, you see and they used to they fright or or faint or go out because I couldn't believe that that that I was a drag, you know? I mean, a woman. So they were interesting. They were fun days. I remember visiting the balcony years ago [00:11:30] And there, there you, you you ran the show. I mean, it is I had the coffee bar and the balcony and and And I was lucky, too, because I worked at the, um, Law Courts Hotel in Dunedin. When the queen came out, I was there in the early fifties. I was, uh, a steward on the door. I was 19, I think at the time. And I put my age up to 21 got away with it because it was 21 those days in the fifties [00:12:00] and, uh, I went to work for the Government Tourist Hotel, which was Lake Tiana, Milford South Hotel and Wait Caves Hotel. And I came to Sydney and worked for Doyle's restaurant, which is always famous. Doyle's fish restaurant and I worked at the Chevron Hilton Hotel, and that's where I got the experience. And I thought, right, I'm gonna take it back to New Zealand with me, open up my own coffee bar and nightclub. They told me today I think I don't know whether I'm right or wrong that my strip to his club today is the new police [00:12:30] station. So I'm not too sure. So it's funny. One minute they're arresting me. And next minute they're taking over. I always thought they were strange. Yes, I ran my own cup, and it was absolutely great because I introduced strip teas dancing with a difference. I had, uh, girls stripping and were actually, uh, as men come out dressed as men and then they were really women so that the audience were fascinated. And then I had male strippers. Uh, and then I had female [00:13:00] impersonators. I had transvestites, drag queens and real girls. So I had a whole variety of 10 or 12, uh, different attitudes to please everybody. And I tried to have a variety, not only strip teas dancing, I had contortions, belly dancing, uh, graves and coffins and graveyards and, uh, um, apes and my old variety, you know, to suit everybody. Because that's what I like to please everyone. Because I thought that everyone mightn't [00:13:30] like the same thing. Give them a variety every time. And we used to get something like three and 400 people in you know a night. So it was. I loved it. It's a big responsibility. I mean, running a business like that. It was, as I said, with all that experience I had working in hotels and learning management work and and steward and waiters work also. You had to be either a nurse or a doctor and you had to be understanding. And you had to be everything. Really. You know, because a lot of the strippers all had their worries [00:14:00] and all their problems do, and one or two had been in and out of jail. But I always like I always used to try and treat them fair and made them relax and give them a cup of tea and say to them the next day and come and see me and we'll talk it over. And And after that, it seemed to be OK again. They seem to be all right again. I had to be like a mother to them. What happened when you had trouble among the audience? How to deal with that? Well, you did, But we we we we had a very wonderful announcer. Her [00:14:30] name was Rosa, who used to announce at the balcony night because she was a great entertainer. And she would say to the people nicely in the audience, Would they please either take with the guys? Because it was really the guys, were they? Please? The dad was the guy to get up on the stage and or either drunk. And you've got to expect that, too. You know, you don't really want to, but you got to. We can say to them, Will they please sit down? Or we have to ask them to leave, give their money back and leave. Why should they have to support it for all the other 200 there or something like that? We [00:15:00] work something out. You know, some people in Sydney, they throw them out. But we didn't. You know, I wasn't that hard. Um uh, Did you did the people who who came to work work there? Did they just come come and knock on the door or did you go out looking for them? I didn't go out looking for them in other clubs simply because I thought that you don't do that. It's like taking someone's business from someone else. I didn't believe in doing that, but if they came to me and they were already from other strip clubs that made it easy. [00:15:30] But I, I, um a lot of them did come and ask me a lot of them said, Look, I, I haven't done it before, but as long as they were over 21 in those days, I would take them if they were teenagers. I wasn't interested but there because that was the law there. And you know, you have to be 21 now. Today it's 18 or 16. But in those days, if you're 21 neighbour, I think she's a lady or he's a guy. He's old enough to speak for himself and I'll take them in and we always and then we we'll have a good look at them. But I used to go for figure and I used to go for a lovely [00:16:00] face, but it didn't really matter. I think it sometimes when they can put it across. They didn't have to have the looks that they can put the act across, Why not? And we helped them with a lot of needed help, like, you know, girls I want to do. I'm interested in the stripping a strip dancer and she couldn't do the strip back. What we do is we teach her. We dress her up with a lovely hair, do lovely makeup, put some lovely jewellery and lovely strip tease clothes or exotic clothes on her and and give her music and give her an exotic name. Her [00:16:30] her name may be, um, Shirley or Joan, but we say once you're on stage, you might be autumn leaves or or whatever. You know, whatever. We want to give them an exotic name, whatever they want to or Matahari whatever, whatever. Um, now what's the relationship between, uh, workers in the strip club and the sex they mean amongst the staff and all that? Well, I had girls working for me [00:17:00] that were lesbians and one would, uh, maybe be a cashier. And the other one's a stripper, you see, and I and I didn't mind the lesbians actually working for me because I had a lot of problems with the I didn't. I had a lot of problems, but I did have one or two problems with the with the real girls and their boyfriends, you see, So I used to say, Look, leave your problems at home. Don't bring them to work. You'll have to sort that out in the club. But don't bring it here. We're here [00:17:30] to entertain our audience. I get things like that. But then we We did meet a lot of my dancers that are very beautiful and very striking. I hope to do a story on them one day and they were absolutely beautiful. Maori, uh, Asians, Africans, a Polynesian Italian and plus New Zealanders and a lot of Australians come and go and work for me in there. And I look at all their photographs and some of them amaze me Now Today they all do straight jobs [00:18:00] in an office. One is still a police sergeant. Yes, and she's still in the police force. And I see her once in a while when I see her about once a year and she's still in the police force. She's been in about seven years and then and a lot of my girls joined the Christian Church and another lot became very and joined other churches. And I say and I say good luck to them too, you know, I, I expect they're gonna and I didn't realise, too. A lot of them work in government [00:18:30] jobs for lawyers, doctors, and I didn't realise how bright they were. I mean, I'm not bright, but I didn't realise they were quite intelligent. You know, I. I didn't meet them as dancers, and that's all I knew. But when they told me they were working in a government job or or working in an office for a doctor or a lawyer or a company director or someone, I thought, My God, I didn't realise he was a bright lady, not only as a beautiful and an exotic dancer, but she's intelligent, too, which was absolutely great. And then we had I had gay guys work for me who were homosexual [00:19:00] or why the transvestites who didn't know what they were. But it didn't really matter anyway, and, uh, I class myself as a transsexual. To me, a transvestite is a guy who hops into women's clothes, and he's not too sure what he wants to be. And then he changes back into me, and I'm a transsexual because I've lived nearly for 30 years as a woman. I've had my bus down operated on, but not not between my legs. So that's what I call a transsexual. And then I also had the [00:19:30] changes were for me, too. And they were absolutely great. Beautiful ladies, also, because your book is is strange. It stops just before the operation and we don't know whether you have a full no IIIII. I have not had a full sex change. I've only had my bus down. And I had my That was, uh, in 1973 I had by by Doctor Chong and uh oh, I forget the name of the other doctor and [00:20:00] I had my bus done. Actually, I've had two or three times done since I've been over here and, um but I have not had the sex change, And what happened is that I always and I used to be a kleptomaniac as a child. I gave that up when I got told off by the police when I was 14 and I became an lympho maniac. You see, I'm an ino maniac now I'm I've always I I love I love my sex. And when I heard about these girls who have had their sex changes, some of them have been [00:20:30] so sad and very disappointed. Some of them love it and they enjoy it. Some of them have got no feelings, and some of them are blocked up. A lot of girls that I've met in New Zealand, Australia and still having um, plastic surgeries. A lot of them who had their sex changes 20 years ago are going backwards and forwards spending hundreds and thousands of dollars of having the blocked up over reopened again. It closes again. It's been thousands, and I've got a girlfriend called Tony, who had her sex change [00:21:00] in Egypt. She's just gone back into hospital here, and she's blocked up. And, uh, and in those days I think it cost $1000. It cost $200 for my bus done. I think it cost about $800 in the late sixties or early seventies to have your sex change. Today, it's anything from 12 to 20,000 to have your to have your sex change. And that's why I never had my sex change when I've heard [00:21:30] about all these other sex changes, I like feelings and I like my sex, I personally I I enjoy and I. I like the younger men when I say younger men 25 to 35. And I like rugged men, the football athletic type, and they must be well hung. Well, I'm not interested. I'm not interested in Polynesian or Maori men and Japanese men. I can't find it. I go, Where [00:22:00] is it? And it's so tiny Lost amongst the bushes. I said, darling, I'll see you in 10 years. Yeah, I find that the Polynesian and Japanese or Asians there so little. But, boy, they make a lot of Children. I tell you, God must have had one bang one shoot. What gave you the idea? Can you describe why you felt? I think it goes back a very long time ago. I was brought [00:22:30] up in. I was brought up on a farm in the bush and because in those days you got to look at it this way. They had the most beautiful Hollywood movies, you know, Famous stars like May West. Um, Greta Garbo, Gloria Swanson, Lana Turner and all these other beautiful famous stars were coming on the scene like Sophia Laurie and Elizabeth Taylor. Um, and all these other wonderful ladies were coming. And what made it go back a long time ago. [00:23:00] Um, I was madly in love with three beautiful women. They're dead now. And the first lady I fell in love with, she was a secret agent and she was a spy. Her name was Mata Hari, and I saw her on the black and white of our screens, and this beautiful lady came out all dressed in black lace and fell all over her face. I was about eight or nine at the time, and I think it was a documentary of her life. And I was fascinated. And I thought, My God, this is in the in the 19 [00:23:30] middle of the 19 forties, I thought, Who's this beautiful lady? And they said it was who was who slept, you know, sort of with the enemy to find out what was going on during the war time. And she was from Holland, and, uh, she, uh, became a trait and worked in the greenhouse in Berlin, in Germany. And, uh, she, um um was an exotic dancer and she was a spy. And another lady that I fell [00:24:00] in love with also was, uh she was unusual too. Was, um yeah, Matahari and, um a salami. The seven veils, Yeah, Salomi the seven veils. And she was a lovely She was another fascinating lady before I talk about salami, That's right. When Martha Harry died, she went to Paris and see, that's where she got caught out. The prince caught her [00:24:30] out that she was a spy and when she was executed, and then I fell in love with Marta Harry. She was another unusual lady and she was known as Sorry Salomi Salome. I'm getting all mixed up now. And salomi uh, she was another unusual lady and she was known as the lady with the dance of the Seven Veils. That's how I got my act together here in Sydney. I copied them and she was so for seven And what I liked about her she wanted John the Baptist's head to be [00:25:00] cut off and delivered on the platter or plate. That's what made it so unusual again, I thought, Oh, this is great. Unusual me unusual ladies. And the third lady I fell in love with was Cobra Woman, which was Maria Montez in the movie Cobra Woman with the snakes. And I put all that act together. Marta Harry the spy with the veil over the face Solo Me with the Seven Veils and Maria Montez with the the Snakes. That's how I got my act together and that's where it came from. And, [00:25:30] um, also as you were saying, How did this all happened when I was 18, I think I was 18 in I was working on the Tolls department in the post office, learning the toll work and telegrams and the newspaper Big Front page came on about American G. I soldier called George Jokinen had his sex change to women. It was a big splash and, uh, the first sex change. And I thought, My [00:26:00] God, there is people like me around and that's what fascinated me And when my and you see on the farm where I came from, uh, it was a lot of men. A lot of boys and I used to dress up in my mother's clothes or grandmother's clothes, and they weren't there, you know, out, out, shopping or visiting. And because there were so many boys in the family, I think my mother looked at me. I was from a family of 13, 3 girls and 10 boys and I think my mother and grandmother looked at me and said, Well, that one there, which is me to [00:26:30] help with the housework, the cooking, the cleaning and the shopping, which I did. So I think that's how it all started. So I say thank you to grandmother and mother and all these famous ladies during the war time. Um, it in in when I think of our If I was to be a woman, there would be I could think of two reasons one would be that you actually want to feel Oh, you definitely feel you definitely feel like I. I speak for myself. I [00:27:00] was always fascinated even at home. I used to watch my mother and my aunties get dressed and the finishing thing. This is during the war time in the early forties, what fascinated me, And my mother used to put on these lovely turbans and picture hats or hats. And the last bit I used to love my mother putting on when she used to wear these picture hats, she put the veil over her face and that, to me, looked mystic and mysterious. You know what I mean? I thought how beautiful I used to love that finishing touch. She put the veil over her face. It was very fashion. [00:27:30] It was very horticulture those days, you know, like, um, a horticulture I should say sorry. And, uh, yes. And the women dressed up with the gloves, the handbags and the lovely hanky chip and the lovely flower and the lovely spray of something and and all those beautiful picture hats. And I just bought me a couple of picture hats the other day from David Jones. They were $400 each, but I always wanted picture hats, so I thought I was gonna wear them one day, one day to New Zealand or to the Australian races one [00:28:00] day. It's a very, very, very big, huge hats. They have bales over them and flowers, and you dress very elegant when you go out to a nice dinner or to a racist, the big picture hats, elegant hats, we have a, um the the other thing, the other reason, maybe to to to to address this all easily. Is that it? Um, maybe it's easier to seduce men because, [00:28:30] uh, men related to men. Many men find that difficult because they have an idea that it's they shouldn't do it. Are you? Are you? Are you referring? If they know you're a transaction or or are you a drag? Are you referring like that? Yes. Well, I I first when I when I was in, I used to work on the streets, also dressed up as a guy during the strip class. When I was a stripper in Auckland, I used to sneak down to Grey Avenue. There was the beat then for the [00:29:00] prostitutes. And, uh, I used to go down there and do the beat and pick up men. But some of them didn't know and some didn't know because they saw me at the strip club and got a fright. And but But, as you can say, some of them were, a lot of men were like that They they couldn't see. But today you wouldn't believe it. Today they are fascinated that all the all the the drag queen or the transsexual parlours here The men are so fascinated along [00:29:30] the streets they pick up drag queens, transvestites or transsexual. They're fascinated today. But those days I can see the point that you're going to be with with this woman, But really, it's a man. I couldn't do it. I can understand that. But today it's No, I mean that that that they were men that were interested in men. I mean, maybe they were gay, but they they couldn't bring themselves to do it. But they they could do it with, uh um a man who was pretending [00:30:00] to be a woman is you think that sometimes the case or used to be the case could have been, um it's such a mix of variety today. I I'm not a Tootsie Trade, uh, person, a Tutsi, a Tutsi trade person is a person who goes to bed with another gay or another queer or another camp. That's what Tutsi trade we say in those days. And that's not me. I've never been. I have been to bed with another gay [00:30:30] guy or another gay girl. But I I didn't know because they they look pretty good and pretty straight. And, uh, but I, I might have done it either. As a business like when we meet me and going Look, I want we meet a lot of men today and they go look, I want to go to bed with a trans trans best side, a drag queen, a straight girl and a straight guy or a gay guy. And we do that too. But, um, I I've always I don't I'm not a trade. I've never I'm not really interested in going to bed with gay people, lesbians [00:31:00] or pros or anything like that. Unless it's a business matter in the parlour I. I like straight heterosexual men. I. I would have loved to have been around during the Romans and Hercules and seas. They were all those tough, rugged men just picked you up and threw you around. I felt as though I had a man you weren't allowed to say no. But today, sometimes you got to be careful of you pick up. But sometimes it's them that roll over. What a real man. [00:31:30] Well, um oh, that's interesting. So what about, um, there must be many times when you when When you you have you would like to have sex for pleasure. And many times when it's business, right, Does it get mixed up? It does. Sometimes it does get mixed up. But what happens is, uh, we we we work it out the nights. We work to say, Um, I'm going to work It's all business. But if I do meet a very nice [00:32:00] guy and I think he's absolutely gorgeous, I think Oh, this is rather nice. I may take him home for pleasure. But then, on the other hand, I can get disappointed because when I get home, I finally he's only got a little one. So that's so disappointing. I thought, I can't have everything you know, But sometimes my hand might slip by accidentally, you know, before I bring them home, you know, to see if he's big or small. And I think Oh, yes, I didn't come over. He doesn't know Well, if I still like him that [00:32:30] I might take him to the party. I think what? He is gorgeous. Well, I'll take him down to the parley. What he has to do, he has to pay the $20 for the use of the room. And then and then I get him. I explain it to him, you know, on the street or where where, where we meet these guys in lovely restaurants, nights or clubs, clubs? I'm not ashamed either of of my past. I've enjoyed it, and I think the most important thing in life is to be honest. And I think that's why my brothers and sisters and families and relations and friends have always said, Well, at least you know, they they know what I was [00:33:00] like in And I think they learn to us in my lifetime. But and that's what I believe in. I believe in that. It's as long as you're honest and and and and and and to be honest in your life and uh, that's me, II. I don't care about anybody. They don't pay my rent. And I and I think a lot of people who are gay or homosexual or lesbians who are prostitutes their family doesn't know and they're very frightened, very scared. I saw a documentary [00:33:30] on Lou Prime recently, and I thought that was very, very sad because he tried to keep it a secret. But I explain it to my older brothers and sisters many years ago that I wasn't interested in women. I liked my kind and they learned to accept it, and I was very pleased. That was over 20 years ago, and I think that the biggest problem is men who can't accept it in themselves, their family. We're very lucky, actually. I found amongst the Polynesian [00:34:00] people I. I don't know about other races, but we we we've been pretty. They're pretty accepted. But I found, like, races or white races. I've heard some of the most saddest stories. I've heard stories where mothers and fathers in Australia or New Zealand don't want to know you, uh, they want to cut you off from the world, silly things like that, or you're not gonna get anything from the family fortune. And I couldn't be bothered with things like that, you know? And and But we've also, [00:34:30] uh, in Australia, here in Sydney, both Maori and Pakeha. People who have died of AIDS and the parents in New Zealand don't want to know anything about them. I wouldn't say all some have been accepted in New Zealand and very nice. Uh, but I have found that a lot of them have heard about their sons or daughters over here got AIDS or dying or this and that. They're not interested. So what I do and some of my close friends do we put on a floor show. We bring up a nightclub and say, Look, [00:35:00] they might be closed at night, you know, they might be their night office, and we put the show on on their night off and say, Look, can we use your night club the night you're off and you have the bar money and, uh, we have the door money and can we Do you mind if we do that? Because a friend of ours has died. He's frequent your nightclub for many years, and that's why we put your club. And could we have a benefit night? And sometimes we might raise 1000 or $2000. And what we do [00:35:30] is, uh, they have a a cemetery here. I think it's in Rockland Cemetery here. I think it is for New Zealanders. So what we do is, uh, we put on a benefit show, and with the money, we give them a nice send off. You know, we give them a church service and the undertakers there and, uh, nice flowers and all our friends all get together and and some of them don't even know them. But they come along because they're New Zealanders, and I think how lovely. And we have a nice service [00:36:00] and a cup of tea or a snack later, A nice chat for a couple of hours and let them rest in peace. We couldn't let them be going into Paus graves. There are some people who have had Paus graves that we didn't know of. But since I've come on the scene and people like and Micky and we and a lot of our close Maori friends who live here, we've all got together and even a lot of other Maori groups have all got together and and and not only I don't mean so much [00:36:30] our camp and gay society of New Zealanders, but also a lot of straight Maori people here and straight New Zealanders live here. They have been so wonderful, they've put in a or a donation also. So that's really nice that we can still have that Maori or New Zealand loving in us also here and we all help one another. So it's great, and those who die we make sure they have a nice burial service because, you know, we couldn't just see them going to a forus grave. [00:37:00] Now, how about, uh what are your preferences in sex? I try. Many years ago, I liked anything. I'd be very honest, but, you know, I've been in this. Oh, God. 40 years. You know, having, uh I would say that I prefer French oral sex. I try not to have intercourse with the guys. I try not to, which is an you know, [00:37:30] or and I don't even have me masturbate. Me. I just prefer oral, but I'm not. Why? I don't want to take, uh, anal sex because a lot of people don't see as we see as nightclub entertainers and street people. We see a lot of things that we've met. A lot of guys who've had eight or six suffering with AIDS and are very, very sad. And that's why I get a bit worried, a bit scared. And if it is, if I do, maybe a once, maybe once [00:38:00] every three or six months. If I did, and I have to be definitely with two condoms, just in case it might break. But I'm very good with I try and remove the condom myself from the guy if I go with because I like to make sure it hasn't broke you know, I mean, many years ago, we didn't care, But it's, you know, in the last I suppose, 10 or 12 years, we have to be very, very careful when the AIDS start coming out before we're very careless. But now we really have to be very, very careful [00:38:30] about, uh, our health because we go to hospitals and we go and visit the aid patients, mostly the New Zealanders that we know and, uh, just give them a bit of love and a bit of comfort before they they go somewhere else, hoping God will look after them, um, to come back I i before I was wondering for for almost all the dances with with most of them [00:39:00] I think there has been There are a lot of girls who dance like Take, for instance, We're talking about gay bar. Say, for instance, lay girls. Well, the very beautiful and famous Carlotta has been the very famous dance to live of of lay girls. She has all female impersonators work. There's a full drag show, and she does not allow or have or have any of her girls work on the streets. It's either on the stage and in lay girls nightclub [00:39:30] and entertaining. And that's it. If you become a prostitute or a street girl, you must leave And, uh, a lot of girls. So in other clubs all around, the gay bars or hotels or restaurants have also worked in different clubs, and bars were dancers. And then they're out of jobs and the And then they decided to become hookers or parlour girls or street girls. And, um and then it's just because of the money. I mean, [00:40:00] wages today is $200 a week or 300. Whatever. You're gonna get a week. It's for many, many years ago, since I've had a straight I think I think I can't even remember. 15 years ago I had a job. But you see that you get two or $300 a week. The prostitutes get that in a night. You see what I mean. But that is why the money, it's the money, and, uh, people can call me whatever they like. They said, Oh, we've seen Carmen and she's this and she's there, but it doesn't worry me I. I get [00:40:30] hurt and upset when they stop talking. That's when they get hurt and upset. Stop talking about me. But it doesn't really worry me because I always say be honest in your life. And and And the beautiful thing is, I can buy beautiful clothes, beautiful jewellery and and and have a nice apartment. I can travel here and there, but if you have a straight job, you're all the time paying bills and debts. But when you've got this kind of job, well, at least it's a nice feeling that you can get up in the morning, wake up good and say, Oh, I can go [00:41:00] out to a lovely hotel or a lovely restaurant, have a lovely dinner or buy me something nice from the guy has left you, you know, the night before, whatever you see. But, um, yesterday you before you you mentioned that there has been men in your life that that had wanted you to fall in love with you. I really spoiled. And I think this is where the name Carmen from these suits me. I have really supported. Um, before I got into drag [00:41:30] dressing up as a woman, I had some Very, uh I was a male whore in in Auckland I was put on to the I met a guy called Charles, who was from Chelsea London, and he met me. And he was an English guy who worked for Milton Choice. Smith and Curry doing all material jobs and his sideline was also picking up young men, and I didn't know. 20 years later he's, I think, dead and gone out back to London. But he he was madly in love with coloured men. [00:42:00] I didn't know this till years later we found out and because they were not only it wasn't only me, there was other three other to guys who were male prostitutes. With me, there was a couple of Maori guys also, but, uh, they dropped out. They either got married or became drunk, So I remember they like their beer or their liquor. And I continued on I I liked all the nice things and, uh so I love the lovely hotels and the chauffeured cars and the lovely clothes and jewellery and travelling. [00:42:30] So I liked all the nothing but the beers. They didn't they weren't really interested. So I thought, Well, fair enough. And but there was a lot of men who really loved me. But as soon as I changed over and became drag, they weren't interested. Which I can understand that I had a lot of businessmen from Auckland. But when I got into drag, then I met lots of wonderful men, too, who wanted me to go and live with them and have nothing but the best. But I support it. I said no, I was I guess I was mean. And I was selfish because I just thought I was gonna stay [00:43:00] beautiful forever and all that. But now I can forget about it. Now. I'm nearly 60. I can forget about it now, So I'd love to have all those wealthy men back if they're still around. But you must have been tempted. There must have been some special relationships that you thought maybe you would stick with it. I. I had a I had when I was in Wellington when I was in the coffee bar and, uh, had the drag nightclubs and all that and the coffee shop. I met some beautiful men, but the saddest [00:43:30] thing was they were married. You see, they were married men, you see, and they work for the government too. and, uh, I had oh, must be half a dozen gorgeous men. They were all married in Wellington, and they are high up in the government today, but, uh, I never mentioned them in my book. I thought that it was sort of a dark secret. I kept aside, but they were They were absolutely lovely and even here, but, um one. Then I might meet somebody [00:44:00] wealthy. I hope so. I'm thinking about security today. I know. Now, here's Here's something. What? What? Uh, what are the special skills of seduction? How if you see somebody, you mean the juice? Well, it all depends where it is. If he's walking down the street, I just say to them, I just say, you know, Good evening. Hello. How are you? You know, uh, could I help you [00:44:30] at all? And then they will quote the prices and whatever, and, uh, they have all different fees. The girls may charge them $50 for the half an hour of their entertainment, which is friend and or And that's not really the price. All the prices. Some are dearer again. I think it all depends who you are. Some are dearer But, uh, it starts off at 50 $10 for the room, and but But if it's sex, it's a bit [00:45:00] more. It may be 80 or 90 for six, but for our it's like for hours. What I really meant was, when when you really fancy somebody If you If you If it's your night off and I think you're going to have you're going to have something for pleasure, how do you Oh, you mean personally me? Oh, right. Oh, sorry. Um, what I usually do is, uh, I usually just say, if it's in my flat, if it's in my flat and [00:45:30] outside, all right, your place or mine? Your place of mine. III I sort of I I try like to sum it up. If I think he's rather nice and rather gorgeous, I'll take him home. But I think no, half an hour or an hour. Maybe with him, I'll go to his place. It's easy to leave. It's easy to get away, [00:46:00] but if he's really nice, I would take him home and we'll have a drink or something, and I sit him down. I believe in warmth. So you put the heater on if it's cold, I believe in soft lighting and very soft romantic music. And I said to him, What would you like to drink my beer? A French champagne? I don't know what he would like or or a wine or something like that. Or or maybe a tea or coffee, whatever. Some don't even drink. It all depends. And then, while [00:46:30] he's having that drink and that drink, I go to the bed and get it ready. And I might play a very sexy tape. Yeah, I might be in in the lounge and I said to him, Do you watch videos? And he says, Yes. And I said, What's your favourite, Mick? You might go heterosexual or gay or camp or lesbian or transsexual. So then I go back to the room again while he's having his champagne. And I used to have half a dozen out. I'll just grab I. I like watching the nice couples, [00:47:00] you know, I'm a heterosexual person and sorry. Yeah, should be all right. The and, uh then may give him a little massage or something like that. We might have a shower together or something like that, and kiss and cuddle, and I give him a few rub overs or whatever. [00:47:30] And I think for plays are wonderful. First, the foreplay not just Wham bam. Goodbye, man. I think that the foreplay is great. You know, the sex and shooting the sperm and all that, unless he wants to. Three or four times I find that the the most sexiest men out and and and and a good sex are the Italians and the Greeks and maybe the Germans. They they can rise something like 345 [00:48:00] times a night. Especially the Italians, the young Italians and the Greeks or the Lebanese, But, uh, and some New Zealand and Australian too. But, um uh, it all depends and just have a romantic night of cuddling and kissing and all that I. I prefer kissing and all that, but it's it it must be, um you you must get so many different kinds of me, I think, especially if it's somebody that you've chosen. [00:48:30] Not only that, too. We we we're like analyst people or psychic people. We can psych them up, but because of my age, it is so amazing. Two things about me that the guy is fascinated with either my voice or he's either fascinated with my bust or because I'm an older. Maybe he might think I'm sexy, voluptuous or vivacious, And, uh, he's fascinated and and then he'd, um it's [00:49:00] a young man. It's amazing when I say young man 25 or 30 they They said they've always wanted to go with an older woman And sometimes it can be frightening because I've had a lot of these young men and they keep still knocking on my door every week. I don't mind once in a while, but I'm not as young as I used to be. But then they're all fit, young and frisky and oh my God. So I I had a love affair. I've just finished with with a Greek guy. He was 22 And look, he had a cock like [00:49:30] a donkey. A Penis like a donkey, I thought, What are you gonna do with that? I was amazed. I said, You're not gonna hit me with that. I it was so big, and then I, I actually I didn't tell him what I was He didn't know and I wasn't going to tell him either, But he was very pushy, very solid and very strong. But after we had a good time and then he found out what I was and I said to him, That's why I said to him that I didn't want to have sex with you because I said I didn't want to tell you what I was. I was embarrassed, but I didn't want to lose him at the same time because I thought he was so good [00:50:00] and so handsome. And I wanted to entertain him, even if it was for drinks or coffee or whatever. I thought once he found out he's gone. I've lost them forever. But I thought I can just happen just for that hour, just entertaining. But then when he found out, he got all embarrassed and he went. But that was something that had happened to me recently. He didn't come back. Well, not so far. I hope he does. Um, I, um I'm going to call him, you see, because I'm psychic. I hope I throw this telepathy out to him. [00:50:30] My grandparents were telepathy people, but they were healers. But I'm a healer too, but in a different way. They cured. I loved that. heal them now, I've had some beautiful men in my time. Lots of single lots of married men in New Zealand all have in New Zealand and Australia. And I've and I've had a beautiful life. And, uh, as I said, it's nice to be honest, and, uh, people love you for [00:51:00] it. I went home to open up a club called in Wellington, and I hadn't seen any of my, uh, friends who came to see me or my coffee bar for 10 years. And when I went back to open up this nightclub, um, you wouldn't believe it. There was supposed to be, I think, 300 to come and see me at this nightclub and 800 come. So wasn't that lovely? They didn't forget me. Ok, um, have [00:51:30] have you had times that have been, uh, um when you when you maybe picked up somebody that you you particularly fancy that that it it turned out that they became dangerous. Oh, yes, I When I came back to Sidney, I picked up a guy and I went in the car with him, which I thought was only for a drive, and he pulled up in some trees and boundary roads. This is behind the Saint Vincent's Hospital. That was my first experience when I came back to Sydney and, uh, I had to give him oral [00:52:00] sex. And not only that, he pulled out a revolver and I thought, Well, here goes, But I've gone. So I had to give him oral sex. And then he, um Luckily, another two cars came to the squash court grounds because the gate was open and I got saved. I jumped out of the car and said, Bye. Thanks for everything. See you later. So he couldn't do anything because all those two cars there are people [00:52:30] and he just drove off. I took his car number and I reported him to the police. The police were wonderful about it. The Kings cross police were absolutely wonderful about it, and they checked him out and they said, Yes, he's just flown back to Canada. He was He was a security guy working here, and so I was lucky there. Another time, I picked up an American sailor. I was working in Kings Cross in the Parlour. I think he gave me $60 for the half hour and [00:53:00] then he tried to strangle me, And it was only through a bit of luck that one of the people, one of the, uh, the the the Bouncers in In the Parlour was walking by heard and kicked the door open and threw him down the stairs. And then the, um I must be a cat with nine lives. Another time, I was in the car again on target for punishment, and a guy was driving me home. But we end up in an out behind an art gallery, [00:53:30] and he tried to throttle and and attack me one night and wanted to rape me. He didn't know what I was. And luckily, there was three pommy seamen. They were cutting through the back of the art galleries down to their boat and hurt me and came to the rescue. And the guy went off lucky again. Yeah, I've had some bad incidents, and you've got to expect it too, because those guys, they know what we are. And I can see on their side of it, too, that they know that they get a fright and find out what we are. And some didn't know and some do know. But I can see their point guys to say you're not [00:54:00] a transsexual or a training are you? Because we hate them. So that's understanding. Um, do you? Do you often tell people we play tricks? We do. We do. We do tell the guys and and and But if they're really gorgeous, you know, and beautiful, we try and play games with them and don't tell them, you know otherwise, we tell them we lose them, and I think, Well, that's too nice to was the name. We'll play it by ear. You know, we'll [00:54:30] see what happens, you know, and we get motivated very quickly before we lose them. And some we don't tell some. We do tell as I say, You're like an analyst or a psychic person. You can sort of sum them up. You know, I always call all the guys I go with in the parlour. I call them Guest. The other girls may call them idiots and bastards and mugs, but I don't like that word, because simply I think they pay my rent, my power, my phone bill, my gas and food and clothing and jewellery. Why should I have to call them mugs, but [00:55:00] that's what the girls call them. A lot of drug is around a lot of New Zealanders here on drugs, and some of them are dying and their family in New Zealand don't know some of them are even dead and gone. Their family think they're over here having a nice time and haven't heard. But some of them are dead and some of them got murdered and raped drug dealers. Some of them have been dumped, murdered because they've done New Zealanders over here have been done. Dirty drug deals with some of the Aussies here, or the or Lebanese or Greek or [00:55:30] Italians. You know, whoever they're dealing with, it could be any race and have been bumped off. I know quite a few people who have been bumped off, right, But you learn when you're in the cross. I've seen lots of things of people disappearing and murdered, raped, attacked. But you learn when you live in the cross like the three eyes monkeys in It's a big sea and hear no evil. You didn't see anything. Otherwise I'll be after you. [00:56:00] Wow, What a strange life. Um, now you you you mentioned that you would that you think that the foreplay is important? Um are occasions when you actually like to spend time afterwards as well? Or it really It's, um I think it all depends on the guy. You know, if he wants to stay, you know? But I'm very funny, II. I like them to go by the daylight. [00:56:30] You know what I mean? But some because I get so many visitors and I I don't want to be caught unaware. Not that it really matters, you know. But, uh uh I think it all depends who you're with. If they're really nice. Sometimes I don't answer my phone or my doorbell when they ring and they go No, he he's mine today or tonight. So they might say your phones ringing your daughter. I know you're my guest today. You're staying or something like it all depends who they are, [00:57:00] and and you would normally negotiate beforehand with it. Just for half an hour or not. Not not If not, if it's your guest for the evening for non payment. You know what I mean? If it's just no, otherwise, if you say only half an hour or an hour, it sounds like business, doesn't it? And I think if it's just for enjoyment or a love affair, you'd like to. Well, then you just say you didn't mention that at all. Otherwise, I get a bit embarrassed, I think. [00:57:30] No, I just been saying that you're my guest tonight, and but some of them just say, Well, look, some guys I do meet in the street, they say, Well, I have to tell you something. I don't have any money on me. I said no. Be my guest tonight and then you know where you stay and you can relax better. You know, what's the longest affair that you had? Um, well, I've never had many guys live with me because I've been, uh I guess a selfish person. As I said, I like to have my free, But guys, [00:58:00] I've had guys come and see me for something like like I've had guys coming to see me here for six and seven years since every week. It's amazing, you know, at my age. But I think they like the experience or they like that. Motherly, the motherly. No. It's a lovely feeling that a lot of guys from New Zealand from Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch, Dunedin. Wherever they come over here and they ask people to come, I'm still here. [00:58:30] Where can we find her? Take her for dinner for a coffee and I think, How lovely and one lady, I was so amazed, she said. I came to your co. I saw this lady couple and she said We came to your coffee bar in 1967 she said. And we always remembered you for, uh, your lovely toasted sandwiches. And I thought, My God, you know. And she only came once that I had lots of regulars come naturally, and I say thank you to all those beautiful people who came and went [00:59:00] from the coffee bar and the nightclub. I say thank you, but I thought just for that lady who came once, you know, you think I would have been there and done that and forget. But it's nice to remember a little something, you know? And I thought, How lovely. Yes, I. I miss New Zealand a little bit, but I like it here because it's more going and you can do your own thing, too. You know, that's what I like about King's cross, it doesn't matter. And if I always think, well, whatever I do, whether I'm a street person or a parlour person, whether I'm gay camp or queer or a prostitute or homosexual or lesbian, [00:59:30] whatever people think I am, I like to think I'm doing it at least a little bit classy and in style. II I met a trans or some years ago. In fact, I think she had an operation. I mean, but But her dream was to to actually marry an old man and and be a house wife. Yes, that that that's happened, that's that has happened. But a lot of things I've learned here, too. I have met a lot of women [01:00:00] who who are a lot of mostly Australian uh, guys who who were, uh, transvestites. And then they became transsexuals. And they are in their sixties and seventies and had their sex change and don't want men. They just quite happy being the sex change. Then I met another lad who have had the sex change these, uh, transsexuals and fell in love with lesbians. Yeah, that's interesting to know, and they have a place here [01:00:30] called Teresa's house, where they look after these people, they've got another place called the Seahorse Club, which is another lot of people. They're guys who dress up, who love to dress up in women's clothes but are actually ma or got girlfriends and got Children at the Seahorse Club here. I personally, myself, I haven't been here, but they have one like that in New Zealand. Wellington. I don't know whether it still goes out of the hut somewhere. I don't know if it's still going, but they have one here. I must get down and have a look at it because, uh, it's nice to know Well, we know [01:01:00] what they get up to, what they do, and then they have the lesbian clubs here. And then, naturally, they got the hundreds and thousands of gay bars and night clubs in Oxford Street and the cross and out in the suburbs for all the gays and the camps and homosexual people. So it's good. It's a nice variety, and I just went to a sleaze ball the other night, a sleaze ball and my friends and I went and it was we had a night and we had 15,000 [01:01:30] came to the sleaze ball God. Not everyone was a sleaze that night. A lot of straight people came. That was a lot of guys. I think it was an excuse that all the guys got into drag became sleeves of wines or tarts or harlots. So uh, uh, my friend and I and many others, we all went along to it and had a wonderful night. It started at 10. They had a big floor show and it finished 10 o'clock the next morning. [01:02:00] And then after that they were all invited from after. After all the show, the hangover show they were all invited to Oxford Street to the bars there. So it was great. I I I'm a Dracula's daughter. As soon as it's daylight, I go. I go to sleep at five o'clock before the daylight. Ta ta! He's [01:02:30] gorgeous! I know. No, I didn't know him, but my girlfriend sent it to me when she was in Tahiti. That one there is very nice, too. I mean, as he's a good he was a gorgeous Greek, uh, policeman. But now he's a reporter, but he's with the police force. He's gorgeous. That guy over there, that's he's a new Zealand model from Auckland. And, uh, he's travelling around, too. And my friend Terry in New York, Um, what? What I need [01:03:00] to ask is get some details about the kind of music that you used. And, um uh, yes, all right. It this one. The other one was exotic, and the other one was Arthur Lyman. But this one, this is the one I played for you? Yeah. [01:03:30] This this one here. Also, I've kept this as memoirs. It was a very famous New Zealand lady. Her name was Roy Norton, and she was known as the Witch of Kings Cross. She's dead now, and this is her record, and I've always kept it. Did No, I didn't. Yeah, yes, yes, [01:04:00] that's exotic. Yeah, And it plays all exotic music. And the other one is Arthur Liman, who plays Taboo. But I haven't seen those two records around for a long time. That's the third one. The record is called Exotica. You don't know who it was. I think it was Yeah. Was the the music for the Yeah. I must try and locate that. [01:04:30] Oh, yes, but those are all the jazz Stella re, um Billie Holiday and I've got, um, Shirley Bay and Nina Simone and Grace Jones. And, um um, what about you? What did you use music? [01:05:00] Well, um, sometimes I used, uh, that that and, uh, and I used the same exotic music to that and the symbol. And sometimes we had a band, so they were good too. You know what I mean? We can play played exotic sounds, which is great, too. It all depends what club you're in. If there was no orchestras or no bands, then we have to use our music. [01:05:30] That's right. All depends. You know, it all depends. But as I said, I used taboo and and the exotic sounds of exotic app. I don't have that record. It's hard to come by. Do you have an ABC in New Zealand? No, no, no, no. It's here, isn't it? It's here for another cup of tea. And [01:06:00] yes. And you saw? I remember you said you saw Spanish dancing. This this lady here taught me Spanish dancing. When I came back, her name was Anita Ortega, and she taught me Spanish dancing. But she's put out of way and she's gone back to Spain. And, uh, but It was nice, you know? And you used it? No, up there for Spanish. And then that was for exotic belly dancers. [01:06:30] One I showed you in the little box here they were for the symbols. They're called symbols for the exotic dancing? Yes. And what sort of music do you like to relax to? I, like still songs like Net Kinko Or, um, maybe Frank Sinatra if he's singing Or Frank Sinatra? Uh, [01:07:00] I can't think of the falling leaves, the autumn leaves, you know of Neck King cold and just goes on. I don't really mind. Oh, I've got, um, another guy who I used to like. But you don't hear much of him anymore. He's a proud of you. I met Kamal in New Zealand, and he was there. I have not met him here. I. I don't [01:07:30] know what's, uh what's on there. So long ago. It's called old blue eyes. This one, Robert. He used to be famous of his time, you know, But Frank neck cold, and, uh, he grew himself moustache. [01:08:00] Who? They are not there. Yes, he came here. He was on the on the midday show. Yes. I, uh I like this academy and sometimes I like way out Weird music. They've got something on now called Enigma. Uh, I guess it's just come out. It's sort of a group A group, and it's mostly all I like. Unusual, weird, way out [01:08:30] music I like sometimes I like, uh, very creepy or weird, uh, music. Sometimes for relaxation. It all depends who they are. You know, there's a famous, uh uh, opera of this, Um, So, um, so is it, um and it's going to be done this year. Well, [01:09:00] the company I can send you the tape. It gets faster and faster and faster and faster. And that was a very unusual lady. Yeah, he and the She was very unusual. Did you use? Uh, no, I didn't. No, I didn't use [01:09:30] that. But isn't it? Yeah, I had some numbers from flow flow, but no, I didn't III I My Auntie Sarah Vaughan with whatever Lola wants. But no, not not Not so much to Simone. I love listening to her. I thought she was sort of unusual voice. Even de re had an unusual voice too. And Kitty Lester, did you ever only once I had that [01:10:00] live here for Max Choir Show. I sang the falling autumn leaves. When? When he was the town choir show. Yeah. Oh, no, It's getting to try. Not like that. Yes. And so you had a live live band? Oh, yes, that was That was practise. And in the afternoon? Yes. And I was quite pleased. I remember the words, you know, band of getting all ready and and all that. [01:10:30] Yes, yes, that's right. Yes, but like girls and all that, it's all mine, you know? Yes, All the drag shows here are mostly mine. But they do have one or two people who sing on their own, use their own voices and crack jokes and all like comedians. You know, there's one or two around. Yeah, I [01:11:00] found it. I found it here, too. And the cross has changed. It's not like the good old days and beauty and glamour and all the nice things and people you can trust today. It's all drugs and rehabilitation and a lot of street kids. That's what I feel sorry for. I thought I wish I had a big house for all these street kids because they're just sleeping anywhere. Nowhere to bath or wash, nowhere to eat. And there's wonderful people around here like Jesus Care, the Salvation Army, [01:11:30] ST Vincent's Hospital and Hala Krishna. They're wonderful people I say a prayer to because they give them free drinks, free meals and maybe a little money to get them on their way. So I think that's absolutely great and we have a We have a needle exchange here, which means that if you are a druggie, you can get clean needles so you don't get the gutter needles and everything like that, so it's great.

IRN: 925
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TITLE: Parliament: Committee of the Whole House - Homosexual Law Reform Bill (26 March 1986)
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VOICES: Bill Sutton; Fran Wilde; Geoff Braybrooke; Graeme Lee; Ian McLean; Jim Anderton; John Banks; Maurice McTigue; Michael Cullen; Roger McClay; Russell Marshall; Trevor Young; Venn Young; Whetu Tirikatene Sullivan
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bill Sutton; Fran Wilde; Geoff Braybrooke; Graeme Lee; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Ian McLean; Jim Anderton; John Banks; Maurice McTigue; Michael Cullen; New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF); Parliament buildings; Roger McClay; Russell Marshall; Trevor Young; Venn Young; Wellington; Whetu Tirikatene Sullivan; equality; homosexual; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; human rights; law; politics
DATE: 25 March 1986
YEAR: 1986
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from parts of the Committee of the Whole House during the Homosexual Law Reform Bill, 26 March 1986 (part 1 of 2).
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Sexual law reform bill. I have, uh, been aware of the very considerable number and the close similarity of a great number of the amendments that are in the before the committee so that I have asked the Clark in association with the law draughtsman to prepare a schedule of these in such an order as would allow [00:00:30] a rational, uh, consideration of the issues involved in each one. if they are carried out in this order to be avail made available to members of the committee, it can. The house may not instruct the committee in this way, but I have asked the clerk to have this prepared and distributed to members of the committee so that they each member of the committee, will be aware that [00:01:00] all the other members have this information in front of them. I declare the house in, uh, committee on the homosexual law reform bill. We we Mr McLay, is about the House Senate Committee on the Homosexual Law reform bill. The question is that part one stand part When this matter was last being discussed, Mr Roger MLA was speaking. He has [00:01:30] 4. 5 minutes. Mr Chairman in the half minute that I had to say a few things concerning these measures. I did say to the committee that and to the member of the bill that I believe that her habit of resorting to what I see as some personal abuse of members who happen to be opposed to her own personal point of view did nothing to enhance [00:02:00] her chances of this bill moving through the committee stages smoothly. Mr. Chairman, I reminded the committee that there were, after all, 830,000 people who took the trouble to put their signature to a piece of paper to say that they did not want a bar of the contents of this particular bill. Now, Mr Speaker, there's been a lot Mr Chairman, there's been a lot of conjecture about how many of those signatures, uh, should [00:02:30] have been permissible. I don't care whether the number is half Mr Speaker. It is still a Mr Chairman, a very significant number of people who feel that they have not been given the hearing or the consideration that they should have been given. As far as I'm concerned, this measure has become a government measure because when you look at the way, uh, the rational government, irrational government members measure. And Mr Speaker, I believe that it's symptomatic of how [00:03:00] the government members in this house have refused to listen to the vast majority of New Zealanders on all sorts of issues. And this just is just another 1, 830,000 people, Mr. Speaker, they should be listened to. These are people who ask why it is that New Zealand must be the country to have the most liberal homosexual laws in the world. Why is it that New [00:03:30] Zealand has to have the most liberal laws in the world? I can accept well meant argument for some changes. But I cannot accept that New Zealand, in this day and age, is a country that is prepared or wants the most liberal laws in the Western world. I want to say to the move of the bill that no law change in New Zealand at this time is going to bring about a change of attitude concerning these [00:04:00] problems. It's a change of attitude that is needed and no law changes at this particular time, be it to the age of 16, 18, 20 or 90 is going to change the attitude of those 830,000 people and the people they represent. The member won't get rid of the attitudes that she doesn't like in other people. I want to address some remarks and questions to the member and ask why it is [00:04:30] that we look at amendments concerning 16, 18 and 20. Why is it that we look at those particular ages? What is so magic about those ages? What is wrong with 17 or 19? I also want to say to the member, Let's move this bill that there is much confusion and alarm and concern about the age of 12, and I refer to the bill part one, Section [00:05:00] three concerning the two new sections 1 40 Indecency with a boy under 12 1 48 indecency with a boy between 12 and 16. I want to know what the implications are. If this committee should decide that it will allow these homosexual acts between people at the age of 20 will that make any difference to the ages as mentioned in these new sections under 12 indecency between boys uh, 12 and 16. [00:05:30] And does it mean Mr chairman in this regard in 1 40 a two where it says it is a defence to a charge under the section. If the person charged charged proves that the boy consented and that he is younger than the boy, Does this mean it will be quite legal if the boy is a 13 year old and has performed these particular, uh, pursuits with a boy older and [00:06:00] can prove it? I want to ask the the member in the chair if she can address her remarks to that because many people are most concerned about that. Mr. Mr Chairman, Mr Bray Brook. Mr. Chairman, I rise to take part in this debate in the committee stages, possibly for the first time having been overseas. I was somewhat surprised when the member who has just resumed his seat, said that this was a Labour Party bill. I wonder if he's spoken to his [00:06:30] own political colleagues at North Shore. Uh, Raglan, et cetera. Mr Speaker, this is not a government's bill. This is Parliament's bill, and the member for Wellington Central, quite rightly acting within her rights as a member of Parliament, has introduced this bill for Parliament to discuss and to either pass or reject. It has nothing to do with party politics. And it's a pity that that member who has just resumed his seat even here has tried to play party politics. It may be on his side [00:07:00] of the house, but on this side of the house we have complete freedom of conscience to vote as we will. And I jealously guard that right, Mr Speaker. Mr. Chairman, I am against this bill, as I think is well known. I want to speak briefly if I may, uh, to those effects where Part five and I wish to rise to support the SOP put forward by my colleague, the Minister of Defence. I 100% support [00:07:30] that and I do it for the following reasons. Discipline in the armed forces is a fragile thing, but it is an absolute essential commodity to have no armed force can carry out its job without discipline. And it has been shown that where husband and wives are serving in the armed forces, rarely are they allowed to serve in the same unit. It is because of the emotional attachments which naturally a husband and wife have [00:08:00] for one another. If we permitted this bill not to be it to the armed forces, then you would find that gay people who would obviously have a great deal of emotional affection for one another could be that discipline where an order had to be given instantly and instantly obeyed. That would be in jeopardy. Therefore, I think the Minister of Defence's amendment should be agreed to another thing. Why the armed forces must not allow anal intercourse. Mr. Speaker, Mr Chairman, [00:08:30] is because in a battlefield situation, each and every soldier is virtually a walking blood bank. And the Falkland Islands has shown us that it would be disastrous for a soldier to be wounded and need a blood transfusion suddenly to find that he could be contaminated with the disease of AIDS. And I do not say that lightly. It is a blood borne disease. There is not the time in a battlefield condition to test each and every blood sample [00:09:00] for AIDS. It would be impractical and impossible in a battle situation. And can you imagine the morale of our armed forces if a soldier who was wounded even slightly but needed a blood transfusion was to contact AIDS in that way, until such time as AIDS can be screened and is eliminated by medical science that it must not be in any way endanger our armed forces. Mr. Speaker, another reason why I believe that it should not be entertained [00:09:30] by the armed forces, I think is because it would bring about a huge embarrassment and insult to our serving soldiers, sailors and airmen. I served many, many years in the armed forces, gay people, rightly or wrongly. And I can understand activists in the gay movement failing to understand that. But gay people in the armed forces are universally detested. And I can tell you now that to make it suddenly legal for men to sleep with [00:10:00] one another would cause grave acts of indiscipline. And I can tell you many a story could be told on what has happened to people who have tried to carry out gay practises in the armed forces. It is intolerable, and it is unacceptable. Mr. Speaker. Mr. Chairman, rather, I have spoken to many of my former colleagues in the armed forces. They find the thought that if the civilian law is changed, it will also apply to those subject to military law. Utterly detestable. [00:10:30] As one said to me, Mr Chairman, kiss me. Good night. Sergeant Major could well become a reality that would make a mockery of the discipline of the armed forces. And I it is totally and utterly unacceptable. Mr. Speaker, there have been some gay people who have forwarded all sorts of pamphlets for some people who are apparently in the past, non living, of course, who have apparently been well known in military circles who have been gay. And I note before, however, that they're all [00:11:00] dead now. But let me say to you that for every person that you can produce like that, I can produce at least 1000 who were not gay. There is no room in the armed forces for people who are not gay. Mr. Morris McTigue. Thank you, Mr Chairman. I rise to speak in the committee stages in opposition to a number of the clauses in part one. But I'd like to start off Mr Mr Chairman by saying that [00:11:30] I believe that for all of those parliamentarians who are in this parliament and who accept part in this conscience vote issue that it is a time to be counted. It's a time to be counted because we're making a decision here and we have to make the decision in the light of what's God's law and what's man's law? And if there is no place in this parliament for God's law, then why do we pray daily and why do whenever we petition this parliament, do we make that in the form of a prayer? Because I believe that there is a real responsibility [00:12:00] for this parliament to exercise its influence in setting a standard in the leadership for the moral code of the society as well. And I believe quite strongly, Mr Chairman, that there is no way that the act of sodomy on somebody between the age of 12 years and 16 years, even though it be penalised by the court, can be accepted or encouraged or even allowed to happen and have the condone [00:12:30] of this parliament. It is even more it is. It is just as unacceptable to me just as unacceptable to me. If that particular practise is to be advocated beyond the age of 16 years and there is no upper limit as far as I am concerned, it is a matter of making a decision according to my value judgments on whether it is right or wrong. If I'm going to make a judgement on whether it's right or wrong, I have to go back to the history [00:13:00] that developed my standards and my values and in developing those values and standards, I have to be thankful that the people who developed my character were not gay people because I believe that my values and standards would be very substantially different if they had been developed by people who were gay. The fact that this Parliament may and I pray won't but the fact that this parliament may sanction this particular bill will, I believe, [00:13:30] change for all time, the course of our society. And it's a change from which it will be very difficult to pull back, if not impossible. It will have a damaging effect, particularly on heterosexual relationships in our communities and on the family unit as a whole. I'm asked how I believe that the family unit as a whole only functions adequately because there is the special relationship [00:14:00] that there is between husband and wife and that special relationship has been developed. But with the encouragement of the faith of our great religions to be able to bring up the Children in a protected and loving environment which will produce for them the values that they will require and need to be able to fulfil the role that they play in the pro generation of the next generation. Mr. Chairman, Clause four deals [00:14:30] with indecent assault on a man or a boy, and that indecent assault is unacceptable to me at any time, in any place or under any conditions. And I would just like to say to this house that in many instances I know young people of the age of 16 years who I still consider to be boys and who, at an even later age 17, 18 and 19 years of age are still boys. [00:15:00] I believe that we have in our society developed a system which has very much developed the intellectual capabilities of our young people. But we have to recognise that a growing up process is not a matter of growing up and developing all of the talents at the same time. And at the age of 16 years, I believe that we have a very substantially underdeveloped emotional talent and emotional values and the fact that at that age we could be subjected to this [00:15:30] kind of sexual, uh, provocation. And maybe in some situations, sexual harassment will have an will have, in my opinion, a long lasting detrimental effect on those individuals concerned. It is totally unacceptable. And I believe that the responsibility lies with us to recognise that as a thinking. People here inside a thinking parliament, I would urge the members of this house that their first consideration has to be not what the [00:16:00] mos of society may be saying to them at the moment. Not what the liberal element within our society may be saying to us that it is time for a change, that there is a need for some liberalisation. Mr Mr Roger McKay. It's easy to see why the people of Timaru chose that member to represent their views. And it's the same reason that he will be here as a member of Parliament for Timaru for as long as he chooses, because he's representing the views of [00:16:30] the vast majority of not only his electorate but of New Zealand. And I think it's time that this parliament stopped and listened and looked at where we are going on issues of this nature. It is not the way New Zealanders want our nation to go. New Zealanders want to hear parliamentarians expressing their concern about the other issues of the day that this government, the honourable member but the time arrived from Italy. The chair and I shall resume the chair at 7. 30. In fact, pose [00:17:00] some questions to the minister of Defence who has an amendment concerning this part of the bill. But I want to pose a question to all members of this committee when considering these measures part of the most liberal homosexual measures in the world. Why is it New Zealand of all countries has to accept those most liberal homosexual laws? Uh, in this day and age, I'm not sure [00:17:30] that New Zealand is the country that should be accepting that on its shoulders. I want to know why it is that if we look at the reasoning of the Minister of Defence based on the chiefs of staff who made a detailed examination of the basis for their services, attitudes to practising homosexual serving in the forces, they came, the minister told us. They came to the conclusion that this would adversely affect the coherence, the discipline, the command [00:18:00] and ultimately the operational capacity of the armed forces. What's wrong with that reasoning for the whole nation? Why is it that just the armed forces need to adhere to these considerations? I want to ask the member. I want to ask the member interjecting who always interjects very loudly just after the tea break every evening. Strange That strange that you should concentrate on the food more. I want to ask the member What about this? These criterion [00:18:30] pertaining to other groups? What about teachers? What about the discipline and command and the moral fibre as pertaining to schools and teachers? What about lawyers? And, uh and their dealings with people? What about those who are involved with youth groups, the scout masters and so on? And what about parliamentarians? Why is it that the armed forces is such a special case? Now I can accept the submissions of the Minister of Defence on behalf of his own amendments. But [00:19:00] I do ask other members of the committee Why is it that that one special group applies? I hope that the Committee will address itself to that because the minister did talk about the need in the armed forces of effectiveness. Discipline the health questions as if it applies to the Army, navy and Air force only. What about the health questions that apply to the whole nation and the whole community, particularly our young people between 12 and 16, for goodness sake? Why where are we leading this nation? We [00:19:30] are parliamentarians. This is a free vote. Why don't we listen to 830,000 people who have told us on behalf of many other the people as well? This is not the measure that New Zealand wants, and I believe that parliamentarians have got an opportunity to show a bit of moral fibre. This is not the way New Zealanders want to take this nation. And I hope that the uh, the member in the chair will address the specific questions I have asked of her particularly pertaining to the [00:20:00] her proposed law changes pertaining to 12 to 16 year olds. What the implications are if, in fact, the amendments allowing homosexual activities between 20 year olds are in terms of the ages that she has in her bill. Will the 20 year age group make any significant need for changes to 12 to 16? Should it be 16 to 18? In that case, for example, I would like to know the significance of the ages of 16, 18 [00:20:30] or 20. Why have those ages been chosen? As my colleague? The member for Timaru ably demonstrated earlier in the debate this afternoon. These matters pertain to attitudes. These matters pertain to the moral fibre of people of this nation. The attitudes of this nation are not going to change. I want to hear from the member and the chair to those specific requests, which I make on behalf of many people [00:21:00] who have written to me. And I know other members who are most concerned. I hope that she'll give us those answers. Mr. Jim Anderton, Mr Chairman, I think the truth of the matter is that people are not made either good or bad by laws, uh, or by acts of parliament, but by the ethics that they acquire, uh, from their own moral formation, which is gained on a personal basis and not through legislation. This [00:21:30] homosexual law reform bill is intended to foster equality before the law for all New Zealanders, regardless of in this case, their sexual orientation. But of course it could be in other instances, in other legislations their religion or their political belief or anything else and approving this legislation, Mr Chairman, uh, to bring about equality or equal treatment in a legal sense does not necessarily imply support or otherwise for the behaviour of individual people. And [00:22:00] it is my belief that you cannot legislate for goodness and that all we can do as political representatives is ensure that there is a legal framework within which the common good is protected, as well as providing for individual rights to be exercised. Now, I want to say to the members who have spoken in this debate previously today that the time for equality before the law, in my view, is now. Other nations have taken this step years ago, and I've heard mention [00:22:30] made, uh, by members during this debate about Christian values and homosexuality. But nowhere in Christian teaching can I find any suggestion that one's Christian values should be determined by public pressure, by referenda or by the weight of numbers on a petition. I want to remind members of the house. That Pontius pilot held a referendum. He held a referendum. He knew his [00:23:00] prisoner to be innocent. But he believed that as the recognised lawmaker of his time and place, that he could wash his hands of the decision of the mob and stand aside and allow those with the weight of numbers on their side to have their say. And I would remind members who want to quote Christianity in their defence of that fact. The house, this house and the members of it cannot in my view wash their hands in that way. They must decide [00:23:30] for themselves. And it is my view that the possibility of objective, well informed and unemotional consideration of this matter has been shown to be, well, not impossible. My mail and I suggest the mail of all members is evidence of that fact. And some of the contributions to this debate reinforce that point. I want to refer Mr Chairman, particularly to clauses four and five. It has barely been noted that the terms of imprisonment for in for indecent assault or anal intercourse [00:24:00] on a boy under the age of 16 years is the subject to imprisonment of between seven and 14 years. Now, Mr Chairman, that is the same range of sentence usually reserved for murder. And I want to know what punishment do those who oppose this bill want? Do they want more punishment than for the crime of murder? And if they do, what are the implications of that? Does it, in fact, then suggest that you might as well kill a victim as [00:24:30] well as perform any other indecency on that victim? Because those who want more punishment than M for the crime of murder are inviting that comparison. And I want to say an answer to the member for Invercargill, who spoke earlier in this debate that it seems to me that the police have got a lot better things to do with their time than deal just with homosexuals and and chase them around the place. Dealing with heterosexual rape offenders, for one, would be an important job [00:25:00] of the police, and I suggest that we give them plenty of opportunity. Do that work. We like to remind the honourable member for Invercargill of the words of that London Bobby who wrote to me again because I want to ask this question of that member. Will it be you for the member for Wanga Ray or a religious group or a vigilante squad? Or the police who seek out these homosexuals that you want to persecute? Before the English law changed, he said to me, I was a young [00:25:30] policeman ordered into the dark streets in the private recesses of London to hunt and arrest homosexuals. My actions were the immoral act, their crime, their sexuality, my shame that I had no brief to crush the sensibilities of a fellow human being to criminalise private morality turns us off the steep path to civilization. Now that's what he wrote to me, a London policeman who was responsible before the change in the homosexual law [00:26:00] in that country for policing the bill that you want to oppose. Now it seems to me that that is not what I've listened carefully to. My colleague and friend from Sydney want to tell him that I used to be a London policeman and I walked the streets of London, and I have in my time arrested homosexuals who have molested young people. And I did it then and I would do it again [00:26:30] because I think that homosexuality is a social evil that should not and must not be Condoned by this country. I oppose the bill, Mr Mr Chairman, because it is not in the best interests of the homosexual persons or our society. What we are telling the nation of this this people of this nation, is that if it is legal, then people and especially young, immature people, will think that it is socially and permissively correct [00:27:00] to be a homosexual. I do not accept that I do not accept it there in my youth and I do not accept it now. My colleague and friend also said that other nations have changed the law and it about time that we did too. He is quite correct when he says that other nations have changed the law. But I have correspondence here which I am quite happy to table for the benefit of members of the House, which shows that some of those nations now bitterly regret that they have liberalised and changed [00:27:30] the law in the state of New York. At the moment where the disease of AIDS is running rampant through that state where it is almost out of control, legislation is this week. I understand being introduced to stop the spread of AIDS through homosexual context. They want to close the gay bars, the gay churches, the gay dance halls, the gay restaurants, et cetera. Because they have said and in their legislation where they gave almost almost [00:28:00] legal licence to do what they want, including marrying one another, they have found that the society has rejected it, and now they have got an appalling health problem. Mr. Chairman, in my constituent of Napier Since this bill was introduced oh so long ago, I have spoken to many of my constituents. I have spoken. They know my views. I have listened to theirs. Believe me. In the city of Napier, there are a few people who support the bill. [00:28:30] But there are many an overwhelming majority who do not support the bill, and I shall vote against it accordingly because I believe I am doing what my constituents expect me to do. Can I just briefly touch to finish off talking about the armed forces, which was what I was speaking just before the interval? It doesn't matter if this parliament makes it legal for soldiers, sailors and airmen to engage in homosexual [00:29:00] activities. The members of the armed forces and those of us who served in the armed forces know this for a fact will find that those members will find this practise repugnant. They will be disgusted by it. And any gay that thinks that they can carry out those practises legally in the armed forces will get a very short, sharp chip Indeed. As I said before, it has already been spoken around. Well, I should have known there was an old sailor here who would pick [00:29:30] up that point as I I suppose that my colleagues age will accept anything. Mr Chairman. Mr. Chairman, it is now becoming the butt of many jokes at Wau camp, the largest military camp in New Zealand. As I said before, kiss me Good night, Sergeant Major will become reality instead of being illegal. Mr. Chairman, what this Parliament has forgotten [00:30:00] and what many of my own colleagues have forgotten is that the actions of the so called activists and the gay community are not the same values held by members of the armed forces or many, many people in our society. Even if the law does this even if we pass it for the armed forces. As I said before, there will be many breaches of it and I feel sorry for any gay that thinks he can go into the armed forces and practise their there. Mr. Speaker, one [00:30:30] of the things that's been ridiculed by the supporters of the bill time and time again has been that they have ridiculed the petition which was presented to this parliament. I supported that petition. I was very proud to be associated with that petition. The one thing, though, that has struck me as rather strange is that though the people who oppose this bill organised a petition and I am not saying that it was 100% correct because who knows? But I know that it was overwhelmingly correct as far as I was concerned is that I am surprised that the gay community [00:31:00] themselves, if they are so certain their case, they themselves have never organised that position in support of this bill. Chairman Mr Chairman, I think it's important to correct a misapprehension under which the member for Napier is suffering and that is regarding the New York situation. Yes, New York is a city with probably the the largest AIDS problem in in the world that we know of. And in fact, just this week in New York they have passed anti discriminatory [00:31:30] anti discrimination legislation along the same lines as the bill we're actually discussing at the moment. And the reason why they have done that is because they know that unless the gay population and the at risk population are in fact, um, able to live ordinary lives and not, um, cover carry out sexual activities covertly, they will not be able to assist with the public education and a public health programme. [00:32:00] And the member for Napier might, um, bear that in mind that in fact, the legislation was actually passed this week. Uh, Mr Chairman, I want to comment on a question asked by the member for Moana, who appeared to have some difficult with the age of consent. And he did ask me why, um 16. And why 18 and why 20? Well, I can't answer for the movers of the amendments why they've put on ages why they have decided arbitrary ages such as 18 or 20 [00:32:30] should be the age of consent. But I will tell him why there is an age of 16 in the bill, and it is quite simple. It is because the age of 16 already exists in the Crimes Act, and I'm sure I've told this to the before. Perhaps the member wasn't listening at the time. The member for says he's heard it all before, but perhaps he should listen to. He might learn something. There is, in fact, currently in The Crimes Act, an age of consent of 16. And the whole rationale behind this bill is to actually make the law [00:33:00] non-discriminatory so that males and females are treated equally under it. And I think it's very important that, uh, those who are saying that it's going to legalise sodomy between 12 year olds, et cetera, et cetera. And that has been said both in this house and out of it. And those who have said, as did the Salvation Army in the war cry of the 27th of April 1985 that the bill will effectively legalise sodomy with all males aged between 12 and 16, and [00:33:30] it will be almost impossible to convict for sodomising. Even 12 year old people who make those claims are actually wrong and they should read the bill, and they should read the Current Crimes Act Section 1 34 on which this bill is modelled. It's actually a gross distortion of the legislate of the bill to say that to make those claims, and it's simply designed to make people fearful of their Children's safety if the bill is passed. In fact, the bill contains a provision which [00:34:00] is already there in the Crimes Act under Section 1 34 and which has operated successfully for many years. And nobody, as far as I know, the police, the Social Welfare department or the Social workers churches. Anyone who has anything to have anything to do with this legislation has has called for the repeal of this. That request has never been made. The provision, which is there is, is commonly known as the carnal knowledge clause. Um, it is carnal knowledge [00:34:30] is when a male has consenting sex with a girl aged between 12 and 15 years. It provides for two defences and the member for Wa mo, and I should listen to this because they might learn something. There are two defences possible to all knowledge. The first is if the male can prove he is younger than the girl. The second defence, which is here in this bill on an identical basis, has two has three elements, all of which must be proved to the court. Firstly, the [00:35:00] um accused must show was under 21 at the time of the offence. Secondly, he must prove that he actually believed the girl or the other party was aged 16 years or older. And thirdly, the judge and the jury must all be satisfied that they could reasonably believe that the other party was 16 years or over. Mr. Chairman, these are very stringent criteria. They are very difficult to fulfil. It is not very often that they are even brought forward as [00:35:30] offence because the people who are involved in the court proceedings know how difficult they are. And I think that it is quite fatuous to believe that it could be used successfully and that the and and that it is going to prove the claims made by people who oppose the bill. The homosexual law reform bill simply picks up identically the provisions that are already there in the Crimes Act, applying to heterosexual intercourse and people who are imposing it on those grounds [00:36:00] have should examine their own attitudes towards the young females in our community. The the the people who use those arguments are either ignorant of or suppressing the facts about section 134 of the Crimes Act. Or, of course, Mr Chairman. Or of course, they are only, um they are endeavouring to sensationalise rather than inform because they always use it in conjunction with the discussion about anal intercourse, not about indecency [00:36:30] or about heterosexual intercourse. And the other thing is, of course, that those who condemn this clause are actually saying that boys are so much more important than girls that they have to be given extra protection. Mr. Chairman, this clause is already in the law. This bill is simply bringing the law into line so that it treats males and females heterosexual and homosexual equally. Mr. Mr Trevor Young. Mr. Mr Chairman, I have, [00:37:00] uh, given notice. I think circulated the, uh uh, this evening a an amendment. I intend to move to the bill, Uh, which of course challenges the statements that have just been made by the member for Wellington Central and I'll come on to that in a moment. You'll notice, sir, that with that amendment, there are now 16 amendments on the floor to this bill. A bill which contains about three pages a little over three pages, and from this arena, Sir, there are 16 amendments expressing [00:37:30] the differences that members of parliament have, uh, to various parts of this bill that emphasises to me, sir, the fact that really this parliament is not in a position ready to process this bill. I am still concerned, sir, that there was insufficient study done by the committee that was given this bill in the first place. And I'm not going to, uh uh [00:38:00] to criticise that committee. Sir, I know the pressure the committees are under, but I believe, sir, that before we do process this bill, we should have had a thorough investigation into all that is involved with it. And, uh, I think, sir, if that had been done, it would have been easier to find a common mind among the members of Parliament rather than the rush of at least the host of amendments which [00:38:30] are coming forth. And, uh, I believe, sir, that this is a an important social piece of legislation which needs completely different treatment to the way in which parliament is treating it. And, uh, I don't In my mind, sir, we are really not in a position to process this bill in the way in which it should be dealt. Now. Sir, I have moved an amendment tonight to omit clause three from the bill. [00:39:00] And in doing so, sir, that would reinstate, uh, if the if this was carried by the house, it would mean that the crimes act, uh, in section 140 would in effect be reinstated. That act the Crimes Act. At present, sir, handling this situation of indecency between man and boy provides for a penalty of 10 years for any person who indecently [00:39:30] assaults any boy under 16 years of age or does any indecent act and so on with a person under 16 years of age, the legislation before us now the bill before us now provides the ten-year penalty for exactly the same conditions. Except that it is to apply not to a person of 16, but to a person of 12. Now the member for Wellington Central has has correctly pointed [00:40:00] out that this is at variance with earlier sections in the Crimes Act relating to heterosexual practises. That is correct. And I don't, uh I and I accept that, but I want to say, sir, that we are not dealing tonight with the situation. Uh, under this legislation of young girls and I would suggest to the member for Wellington Central and indeed to the house. If we are to look at this thing globally, then we should [00:40:30] look at it in the context of amendments to the Crimes Act. And when we come down, as indeed I hope so. We will, in due course, to look to the, uh to the penalties under the Crimes Act and various other provisions under the Crimes Act. That is the time when we should make any alterations. You know, the the member for Wellington Central just now said, Well, we're going to bring her intention is to bring it in line with indecent assaults on girls. All right, then why not [00:41:00] lift the situation? The protection of girls to that which is equal under section 140 here for boys under 16, rather than reverse it the other way. Yes, sir. it. The answer is, Well, we're dealing with homosexuals instead of heterosexuals under this bill. And, uh, that's not a not a sufficient answer for me at all. Now, sir, I think it is at our peril that we move to endorse the provisions of the bill at Clause three. At the present time, [00:41:30] I think we should we should, uh, uh, remove it and that there should be no approval by this house for any recognition of indecent assaults, indecent acts on any person or any boy under 16 years of age. We could reasonably leave it there. And we could look at this matter again, sir. When the crimes act, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Chairman Trevor Young. When the crimes act, sir again comes [00:42:00] up for review, I ask, sir, that that be done by the house. I think that's the the the, uh, the fair way to proceed. And, uh, the the best way to proceed in handling this matter. As I said, sir, you could go either way. The me the member for Wellington Central says, uh, she'd bring it in line. This clause in line with the, uh, with the indecency provisions on young girls by reducing, uh, the the standards down to what is here in the Crimes Act to young girls. I'd personally [00:42:30] I'd rather see the the move made the other way. And why, sir? Because, sir associated with a lot of this, uh, secular and carnal knowledge and things are going on is violence in our community at the present time, I want to say, sir, and as many members in this house are on a committee with me where women young women are coming to us concerned. Really concerned, sir, about the conditions existing in our society [00:43:00] at the present time, which is, uh, uh, putting them at terrific risk of violence. And I believe, sir, that we are in a vastly different situation environment with an environment that's affected by, uh, new age such as, uh, television and so on. Uh, where, uh and, uh, and and the video age Where, uh, there is violence proceeding sexually mainly upon young, [00:43:30] uh, young girls, but not wholly that way. I believe, sir, that we need to have the law as strong as possible in this connection in the Crimes Act. And I it will be it's, uh, undesirable. So far as I'm concerned to see us reduce these penalties and reduce the conditions. Uh, to which these, uh, penalties, uh, provide, uh, in the way in which the member for Wellington Central, the promoter of this bill, is advocating. [00:44:00] I asked, sir that, uh uh, That the house give serious consideration in that way to the amendment that I have brought forward again. Sir, I emphasise the house. I don't think it's We are too late in saying no to the processing of the whole of this bill to allow the matter to be properly, uh, investigated by if you like, a royal commission or whatever. But certainly, sir, there's been insufficient study given to this matter. [00:44:30] That's why we've got so many amendments before the house at the present time. And, uh, I, uh, II I think that the house would be well advised if we had if we did proceed on that line, Perhaps just, uh, before calling the next member to speak. Uh, I could point out that members have a sheet of paper on which has contained the procedure proposed by the speaker, but of course, we'll accommodate it in due course to Chairman the honour Russell Marshall. Mr Chairman, I first in the first instance want [00:45:00] to address my remarks to the uh amendment moved by my colleague, the minister of defence to Clause seven A. And I've circulated the paper to members about the effect of that because I asked the officers of the Education Department to comment on the 2nd and 3rd proposals which the minister of defence has proposed. But before I embark on my comments on those aspects, I simply want to say in passing that I do not agree with. Nor do I intend to support [00:45:30] the minister of Defense's proposals. I think that I don't don't believe that that is necessary to take that step. I think there's been a considerable amount of exaggerated fear raised in this respect, as are many others, and I'm sure that although I've not been here for the whole of the debate, other members have canvassed adequately the reasons why no descript, no arrangement should be made for any occupational group. And I think I heard the member for Waay Moana saying words to that effect over the radio [00:46:00] earlier this evening. But Mr Chairman, I simply want to observe at this point that if the House decides to make the amendment which the minister of defence has proposed to clause 10 to Clause 10, I want to point out the contents of my memorandum which would suggest that there are quite serious implications if we go on to attempt to pass clauses 11 and 12 and the legal officers of the Education Department have suggested that we run the risk of being in a rather I hesitate [00:46:30] to you with the words hypocritical but certainly a double standard situation where people and other vocational training bodies would be required to adopt. A different would be allowed to adopt a different attitude towards people who are training for the armed forces than there would be for all other trainees. And that would be a very invidious position to put those organisations and their staff in, and it would open up a temptation which I think is quite unnecessary. Furthermore, Mr Chairman, if and I hope it doesn't eventuate if Clause 10 is passed, [00:47:00] then the legal advice given to me is that the concern of the Minister of defence is more than adequately covered by 10, but without having to go on and pass clauses 11 and 12 and clause 12. Frankly, the legal advice I have is quite superfluous. It's a it's it's a belt and two sets of races, which seems to me to be quite unnecessary. And I urge members if they must pass the first two amendments of the Minister of Defence. Do not pass clause 11 and don't waste your time passing clause 12 [00:47:30] as well. But, Mr Chairman, the other thing I want to say is that I have come to the view not lightly or easily, because I suspect that I am a typical middle aged pakeha male who has the many of the attitudes of my generation with me. But I have come to the conclusion that we must pass the law at 16. And Mr Chairman, there is no active evidence anywhere produced in this house to suggest [00:48:00] that sexual preferences are determined as late in life as that. Now, Mr Chairman, I know there are a whole lot of other things. Well, Mr Chairman, I must say I was ashamed as a member of this house to listen to the mindless emotional diatribe which we listened to last week from the member for Whangarei Mr Mr Chairman, the member had his turn. He can get more terms. I that [00:48:30] it is true that there will be, as there are now, people who will seek to corrupt minor. It is just as illegal under this legislation, as it as it is now, and some of the outrageous emotional rubbish poured out by the member for and others. It just does. I think he, at least as a member of this house, owes it to his constituents and to the people of this country to study what this bill is about, not what it's not [00:49:00] about. There are many of the things which he ranted on about last week, which are illegal now and which will be illegal if this bill is passed in its present form. And I think the House ought to concentrate on what's in the bill and what's proposed and not a whole lot of emotional clap trap. Now, Mr Speaker, it is quite clear to me, and I haven't come to this point of view likely. It is quite clear to me that individual sexual preference is determined long [00:49:30] before people reach the age of 16. Nor am I convinced by those who would argue that it's possible to change a person's sexuality by by whatever form after that age. Those preferences are set and long since determined by the time that people get to this point. And, Mr Speaker, I urge people therefore, to vote on the basis of what is objectively known and on Mr Chairman. And on it. Mr Chairman. Yeah, just, uh, brave Brooke. [00:50:00] Chairman uh, Chairman, I've listened very carefully to the ministers of education's contribution to this speech, and I want to correct him on one or two matters which I think, uh, he may not be aware of, and I do it with the best will in the world. He mentioned the fact that the armed forces are sometimes regarded and required to go to educational institutes. That is true, he said, that it would be wrong for them to be treated differently from anybody else. Well, let [00:50:30] me inform the minister of education that when one joins the armed forces, one accepts that you lose some of the liberties and the free and easy ways of civilian life, and you become subject to military law or naval law or air force law for instance, when you go to a university or a technical institute as a soldier, you are still subject to military law. You have to shave every day. You have to have a haircut and so on, because they are the requirements amongst many others of military [00:51:00] law. Are we to suggest, now that in some mysterious way that their human rights are being denied them? Because all of a sudden they can suddenly go and commit sodomy if they're attending a polytechnic? I'm afraid it is not true. When a New Zealander male or female joins the armed forces, they willingly give away many of the liberties which they are used to in civilian life and accept the disciplines of service life. Mr. Speaker, I've listened [00:51:30] carefully to what some of the other members supporting this bill have said. I want to tell you that in my opinion, this bill provides if we take it right down and I listen to the member for Eastern Hut very carefully and I agree with what he said. This bill provides a defence for homosexual acts upon boys under 12, where a homosexual under 12 one complete consent or mistake. As to the age. I find that totally unacceptable. The legislation, [00:52:00] in my view, would make it very difficult for a for guilt to be found in a court for the simple reason that young person be 12 or 13 or whatever. That young person and their parents would be loathe to have that child exposed to the trauma of a court's cross questioning. And I don't think that that is a good law to put a young child through that I There's been much debate about [00:52:30] the age. I don't care if it's 16, 18 or 20 because I think that 99 is not even an age, although I am tempted to think that by the time you reach 100 you should be permitted to do what you want, Mr. Speaker, the present law is against anal intercourse, or what it is commonly known as sodomy. That is what the present law attempts to prevent. The changing of the law to discriminate homosexual acts, I don't believe is the real aim of [00:53:00] the gay community of New Zealand. I believe firmly that the real aim is to change society's attitudes towards homosexuality and gain total acceptance of homosexual behaviours in all areas overseas experience has shown that where legislators of various countries have heeded to them and given in and liberalised the law, what has happened, I'll explain. And many people have seen what has happened in [00:53:30] the United States, especially Chicago and New York, in Amsterdam and other parts of Holland and in London, etcetera. The first that is to happen is that the gay bars appear bars for gays, gay dance halls, gay restaurants and so on. The next piece of legislation undoubtedly to come in will be to allow gay men to marry as they can in some states of the United States. That is the next logical step. Many of my colleagues will [00:54:00] poo who it and it's not in the bill. But let me just tell you. The bill introduced by the previous National Party member a few years ago had the age of 21. I've read the Hansard in those hands sides members on this side of the house. I believe it was, Henry May said. The next time this bill comes in, it'll be at the age of 16, and you know, he was right. And I'm telling you that if this bill becomes legal within a few years, the next one will be that it's their sexual orientation and males should be allowed to marry [00:54:30] and males should be allowed. Males should be allowed to adopt Children. That is exactly the experience of what has happened overseas. It is the thin end of the wedge. It is the first step along the way. Mr. Speaker, I don't want to Mr Chairman. Rather, I don't want to inflict that upon New Zealand because nobody can give a guarantee what will happen if this bill is passed and what effect it will have on our society. We can only judge what has happened overseas. [00:55:00] The honourable, uh, Mr Chairman, I listened to the member for Napier with quite some interest, as I have the other members who have contributed to this debate. He mentioned the member of the opposition myself, who introduced a bill 12 years ago. I want to say that as far as that measure was concerned, Mr Chairman, it is quite different from the present measure and I certainly would [00:55:30] not support the provisions in the present measure. But I want to say very clearly this when I was asked to, uh, introduce that bill 12 years ago, I said to the person who asked me, Yes, I am. I am prepared to introduce a bill because I hear the arguments one way and another, and I am convinced that it is right that we should decriminalise homosexual acts [00:56:00] between consenting adults in private. That's the view I took then, having heard all the arguments. And that's the view I held that I hold today, and that is precisely the stance I will take today. This bill goes far further than that of all the amendments that we have before us, the one that comes the closest to the recommendations of [00:56:30] that select committee of Parliament that sat over from one year to another reported back to the house in 1975. Uh, is the amendment that is proposed by my colleague, the member for Pendleton. And I want to, uh, in so far as the house will listen to my advice, advise the House to consider that amendment. I think it is the appropriate one. It is a complicated piece of legislation. We [00:57:00] know we know very well that it is fraught. This piece of legislation is fraught with difficulty for the promoter. I'm not telling the member for Wellington Central anything she doesn't know, and I believe we should. We should step forward, but step forward cautiously. We cannot get too far ahead of public opinion in matters to do with what they see as the morals of the country [00:57:30] speaker. We are talking about the criminal law, and we've got to ask ourselves, Do we expect the criminal law to intervene where there is no victim? In other words, a victimless crime Where there are consenting adults in private, however, their actions may offend us personally, offend our own morality. Is that the place for the criminal law? [00:58:00] And I'd say that it is not. It is not. What takes place in public is how minors may be affected are. And I'm not persuaded by the arguments put forward by the member for Wellington Central, who says that because we have a certain age of consent for heterosexual acts, the same age of consent should apply to homosexual acts. If you look through the jurisdictions of country after [00:58:30] country overseas, that argument is not sustainable. So I say to the house, Mr Speaker to examine very closely, and I'm certainly going to support the amendment that's put forward by my colleague, the member for Pendleton, because I believe it meets the needs of those who seek reform of the legislation. As it presently stands, it avoids offending those who are concerned [00:59:00] at the impact of changes on the law on one society and secondly, the young Mr Speaker, I believe that we should take a modest step forward in homosexual law reform this bill or this part the part that we are considering now goes far too far for this house, I believe, and for this country. But I suggest [00:59:30] to the house examine the amendment from the member for Ford and support it a point of order. The honourable Frank Flynn. Mr. Chairman, I think I should seek your guidance by way of point of order. I listened with interest, though I was not in the chamber to the speech a little while ago by the minister of Education, who has, uh, an order paper, I think, but at any rate was making or distributed some material making comments on some [01:00:00] of the contents of the order paper that stands in my name now Mr Chairman, Those parts of that order paper all relate to part two of the bill. I have said nothing about them so far. I gave a made a brief contribution in respect of that part of my order paper that deals with part one. And I'm now just a little bit of No, I'm sure the house doesn't want the minister to give his speech again, and I'm sure [01:00:30] it doesn't want me to give my speech twice. I am just, uh, enquiring, Mr Chairman. Whether and members might like to take some interest in it, whether it would actually be more convenient if I said shortly what I want to say about that part of my order paper that deals with part two now rather than later. Well, no. I think the the the fact of the matter was that the member, uh, for he was talking to, uh, comments that he circulated, which included the amendment that the member for Island Bay proposes to part one. [01:01:00] So but he But he made his remarks all of a piece, or at least I. I understood that that's what he was doing, So it would be better. I think that part that those parts of the member for remarks that were irrelevant having been having been allowed, uh, that, uh, but But in order for us not to stray into further, further irrelevancy that the that the member for Island Bay, uh, restrain his comments until we come to part two. But if he presses the point, I think I would have to allow him the opportunity to comment now if he presses [01:01:30] Sutton. Mr. Chairman, we are discussing part one of this bill, and it's clear that we are finally approaching the stage where we'll have some votes on matters of substance relating to this bill. And I hear applause from some of the members in the House at that prospect. If we consider what was said about part one of the bill in the report of the Department [01:02:00] of Justice, they stated quite clearly that the key policy issue in the bill is the age of consent. They stated that it was their impression that there is a very strongly held conviction amongst large sections of the community that an age of consent of 16 years for homosexual relations is simply too young. There's a good deal of survey work to support that view, including the survey that I carried out in the Hawke's Bay Electorate. When [01:02:30] we consider the amendments that have been suggested by way of supplementary order paper and the speeches that were made in the second reading debate, it is clear that there are two large I camps amongst members. There are those centred around the member for who take a strong opposing stance to the entire contents of this bill, and they have supported themselves in the debate. And there are those centred around the member for Wellington Central who are strongly [01:03:00] in favour of all of the provisions in this bill. There are, in addition, a group of MP S that my numbering from their speeches in this house come to 18, plus a few others who haven't chosen to speak in the debate who have adopted a position of qualified support. They will support some aspects of proposed reform, but not the whole bill, and I am of that number, Mr Chairman, There were more precisely nine members who spoke [01:03:30] who indicated that they were not happy with the age of consent of 16. For part one of this bill but would consider some higher age but not declaring themselves strongly for the highest age suggested, which has been age 20. And I address my arguments particularly to that smallest group, which may conceivably hold the balance in this voting. I argue that of the supplementary order papers, and the amendments [01:04:00] suggested that the major ones are those that stand in the name of the member for Dunedin North, relating to an age suggesting an age of 20 for the provisions. In Part one. I don't support that view because I've heard no convincing argument for the age of 20. It's not an age which is widely used to confirm an age for decision making in society. I believe that the lower age of 18 is now more commonly accepted as [01:04:30] an appropriate age for maturity in regard, for example, to voting in parliamentary elections, Mr Chairman, the member for North Shore, has proposed that the age of 18 should apply to clauses 34 and five that is, to various kinds of sexual activities involving males. That stance, I think, seeks to find that strand [01:05:00] in public opinion, which believes that the age of 16 is too young, too young to allow consenting sexual acts between males, is prepared to accept a somewhat higher age. I don't support that stance either, because because it seems to me to distinguish between males and females performing very similar sexual activities rather than distinguishing between acts. And it's my view that [01:05:30] the public, by and large, is concerned in particular, about the act of sodomy or anal intercourse. That is, in fact, what most members have spoken to in this house when they've been opposing part one of this bill. There's been virtually no consideration, at least in the committee of the whole, of the fact that this act deals with a much wider range of sexual activities than simply sodomy or anal intercourse. I take the view, and I put [01:06:00] that forward in supplementary order paper number 72 which is, however, subsumed under the supplementary order paper number 70 put forward by the member for North Shore, I related I suggested an amendment which would apply purely and simply to Clause five. In other words, I would support clauses three and four as they stand, because they appear to me to be consistent with the Existing Crimes Act provisions relating to heterosexual activities [01:06:30] and because the activities, which are described as indecency, are of a similar nature, whether they are carried out by female female couples or by male female couples or by male male couples, they are of a similar nature. They are, in fact, commonly considered as exploratory sexual activities, and there's a good deal of evidence to show that they are mainly practised by younger aged people engaged in sexual exploration. [01:07:00] Now I believe that that the law should recognise that such activities are of a similar nature, whether they involve only males or whether they involve males and females when it comes over to anal intercourse. I think that that is widely accepted as being a dangerous practise, particularly with respect. Mr Chairman, Mr Ian McCain, Mr Chairman, debates of this kind seem to bring out the best and the worst in the house. Sometimes we get some of the [01:07:30] best speeches that are ever heard here, and occasionally, as in this debate, we get some of the worst speeches. Part one of this bill, which was introduced by the member for Wellington Central, looks to have some clear political purposes, and she's looking for political merit and and and introducing the bill. The speeches in response by opponents, uh, at times, uh, have been extraordinary speeches, and there have been some people in the house who seem to have taken an unusual interest [01:08:00] in certain rather, uh, less uh, familiar sexual practises. Uh, and, uh, I have got quite a few kicks from it. Um, but this bill, Mr Speaker, has been debated a long time, and this part has been debated a long time. I doubt if we've had a new argument in the last four hours. There are some people who are moving amendments, and no doubt the house will want to hear them explaining what the amendments are. But I've been listening intently this evening waiting to hear [01:08:30] when some new argument may be, Uh, may be, uh, advanced. And, uh, Mr Chairman, uh, there there haven't been any this evening, and it looks as though most members of this house are at the stage where they've made their minds up almost all of them, some of them a long time ago. And I suggest to you, Mr Chairman, that's shown by the speaking list by the number of people who in the committee have been able to take a second or third call indicating [01:09:00] that most members of the House have, in fact, made their minds up. Mr. Chairman, beg your pardon. The evidence I have for that is the speaking list where the members have not been actively seeking the call but have been willing to leave, willing to leave the proponents and the opponents of the bill to carry the whole debate, advancing the same old arguments at nauseum. But [01:09:30] well, it may well be that the member for Nelson has not made his mind up. And if he hasn't no doubt the debate could continue for his benefit. Mr. Speaker, I believe that we're getting to the stage with this debate where we're holding back the committee and the house on. No, I'm not moving the closure. I'm not entitled to. I'm speaking to part one. I'm speaking to part one that it is. There are other bills before the house. [01:10:00] I'm not going to refer to them, but that it's time we got on with the business of the country, including other private members. Bills, Mr. Speaker, I would seldom ever if ever urge a speaker or a chairman of committees ever to move the closure. But I would suggest to you that on this particular occasion you should assess whether any new arguments are being advanced, whether the committee has made its minds up and that after those who are moving [01:10:30] amendments have been able to explain them that the House should then decide to go and vote on this This bill, Mr Speaker, there's only one proviso I'd, uh, I'd add. And that is providing. The government would give an assurance that on any closure motion, the whip would not apply. Uh, the Honourable Sullivan sheets of amendments to this bill are fluttering on [01:11:00] our desks like confetti nine. As at a week ago, when we last debated this bill and 18 by tonight. And what does that prove? We have never had another bill in this house. In my experience, it has had so many amendments put by such a wide variety of members in this house. Clearly they are. They are dissatisfied and unhappy [01:11:30] about the principal bill. And I make that case as evidence of that unease. Mr. Chairman, supporters of this bill claim that 10% of our population are homosexual taking the 1981 census. That would mean that there are about 317,000 homosexual New Zealanders. [01:12:00] It is therefore suggested that this bill is for these 317,000 individuals in this country. If this bill is passed, any New Zealander aged 16 years and over could indulge in any aspect of homosexual behaviour with any other New Zealander aged 16 years and over, [01:12:30] and also with any other person from any other part of the world aged 16 years and over, providing both partners consent and that their homosexual behaviour is in private and within this country. What a rare distinction for this little nation that it will provide if this bill passes that legal protection. [01:13:00] If this bill is passed, it would provide a blanket provision concealing such homosexual behaviour from criminal sanctions. Any person visiting New Zealand would also be covered be covered by the law. While in New Zealand, I have referred in earlier debates on this bill to an affluent international jet [01:13:30] setting group with their own travel agencies who already have special visits to this country. Providing this bill passes on their agenda. I speak in in particular of American travel agents for homosexuals poised to come to this mecca of the Pacific, where they can indulge in whatever they [01:14:00] wish to in homosexual behaviour with complete equanimity. Knowing the law in New Zealand will set the seal of approval, there is the promise of new territory and of an unspoiled Polynesian land. I come back to another observation I made during my inquiries in San Francisco last year, where the young [01:14:30] homosexual prostitutes in that city were from the ethnic minorities and I learned of the phrase. Young and black is beautiful, but Brown is better in respect to the specific activity and with respect to prostitutes, homosexual young homosexual prostitutes. So this bill is not actually limited only to the [01:15:00] 317,000 New Zealand homosexuals. The way is opened for the international homosexual tourists. Young New Zealand boys would be more interesting to such tourists than older men. And if the pattern recorded in America is replicated, and I must say, Mr Chairman, that it has been in an extraordinary [01:15:30] number of aspects replicated here in New Zealand. But a few years later than, uh, the programme in America, then young Polynesian boys would be especially choice. Any thorough research on the subject will also reveal the validity. Mr. Chairman. Mr. Doug Kidd, Chairman. I move the question being now, put a [01:16:00] point of order, Mr Lee, to consider the precipitous nature of that motion, I think, and to say that there are a number of speakers. Well, I think is is the member. Uh, if if I can If I can just explain the situation the member for Marlborough called, and, uh, move that the motion be put. Uh, that's not debatable. But, um uh I'm not prepared to accept at the point of what I was raising, Mr Speaker, [01:16:30] but I thought the member was talking to the to the closure, which, of course, is not, uh is not a question before the house. Thanks. Thank you for the call. 835,000 New Zealanders average decent people presented this parliament with a petition saying they don't want to know about this bill. They [01:17:00] don't want to legalise sodomy for 16 year olds, 17 year olds, 18 year olds or 20 year olds. They don't want to have sodomy legalised for armed servicemen. They don't want to have sodomy legalised for any sector of our society because they say that legalising sodomy is the thin edge of the wedge, and it's going to destabilise the family unit, destroy this nation and democracy. So I stand [01:17:30] here again tonight, taking my fourth call and not apologising and saying this bill is evil. And while Rome burns, we are back here in the house tonight trying to decide whether boys should be able to sodomise each other at 14, 15, 16 or some other age. And what disgraceful speech, Mr Speaker, we heard from the member for Wanganui, the former minister of religion, now the minister of education, who supports 14 [01:18:00] 15 16 year old school boys being able to sodomise each other if they wish and where they wish. What a disgraceful situation we have. The minister of defence, who's going to support this bill legalising sodomy for 16 year old boys? And he has the temerity the cheek to bring in an amendment saying that the armed services should be exempt. What we say on this side of the House is if it's good enough to exempt the armed services in the name of the Lord, it's good enough to exempt everyone [01:18:30] we don't want. We don't want any sodomy in our society. We think it's evil and we think it's evil that this parliament, sponsored by the Labour Party member for Wellington, should have this evil bill here in this house. Mr. Chairman, what keeps me going is people that come to this Parliament every Wednesday night. Some of them stand out on these steps. Some of them are kneeling on the steps. Some of them are praying and the members and the telegrams of support that me and my friends, [01:19:00] the member for nature, the member for Uber Car Papakura and Hauraki. We get messages of support every Wednesday saying, Keep up the fight. You've got to stop this bill. You've got to do your best and that's what we're doing. And the youth with a mission here tonight in Parliament, youth with a mission out there praying that common sense will prevail and this parliament will say no to every provision of this bill. That's what I'm saying. No to every provision of this bill. [01:19:30] The vast majority of the population, 98% of the population, are not interested. Homosexual activity don't indulge in it and don't want this bill. We are pandering to 2% of the population that are perverted. And as far as I'm concerned, the suggestion that we import a few camels for these people might be the answer instead of wasting Parliament's time. Mr. Chairman, this is a disgraceful bill. It's the thin edge of the wedge. Next, we'll probably have from a Labour Party member a bill [01:20:00] legalising euthanasia or a bill legalising sexual activity with animals. Or next year, we'll probably see from the member for Wellington Central Amendment lowering the age to 14 or 13 or 12. We on this side of the house who oppose this bill say it is evil. The member for Wellington Central knows it's evil. She's only doing it for some sort of cheap political gain to try and resurrect her electoral majority. [01:20:30] She knows it's bad. 835,000 New Zealanders have said It's bad. My people in say it's bad, and every week they send me down here with a message to tell this Parliament. It's bad, Mr Chairman, I hope common sense will prevail, and as I said, I finish as I started while Rome BURNS While this country is an economic crisis, this country is defenceless, Mr Chairman, And here we are discussing this nonsense [01:21:00] of whether 16 year old boys are organise to sodomise each other or whether it should be higher or whether it should be lower. We, the opponents of this bill, say it's not needed, not wanted and quite evil. Mr. Chairman, I thank you very much for the opportunity to speak for the fourth time. We make no apologies the opponents of this bill, because we're going to speak again and again on this bill because we think it is thoroughly bad. We heard a shameful speech from the former minister of religion, [01:21:30] the minister of Education and who is supposed to be out there looking after the interests of young boys and young girls in schools. And here he is in the house supporting legalisation of sodomy. Dr. Cullen, Mr. Chairman, I don't intend to respond in the same style to the member for as his speech merely to suggest to him, as I suggested before that this is a matter which should be regarded with some degree of rationality rather than simply bigotry and prejudice [01:22:00] and I say that, sir, because I don't think in approaching this part of this bill it is appropriate for members to base their voting, their approach to legislation on a series of prejudices rather than on the legislation in front of them. I'm quite sure that the great majority of the members of this house share those prejudices which they have had imbued within them through a long process of acculturation and education. But that is irrelevant. [01:22:30] That is irrelevant to the state of the law. And the question before the house on this part is really very simple. The question is whether people who commit anal intercourse, whether indeed heterosexual or homosexual anal intercourse should be subject to criminal penalties if they are of sufficient age to have made up their minds about that and whether they have given consent to that act [01:23:00] taking place. And indeed, we've had problems, sir, in that members, like people in the public at large, have consistently misrepresented parts of this bill to take one simple example. The member for Hauraki state of this bill legalises male brothels because it repeals section 146 of the Crimes Act. He forgot to note that it also amends section 147 on brothel keeping to change the word woman to person. [01:23:30] And he may be so overwhelmed by the mass of feminist literature that he is not aware that men are still people in this society. And therefore sir, if brothels are banned for people, they are banned for both men and women. And the bill bans brothels for men as it does for women. And if only some members would pro would bother to read the bill, bother to get some proper advice. They would not make some [01:24:00] of the stupid statements in this house that they have done. But I come back to the essential matter. What is the purpose? What is the purpose in subjecting to subjecting people who are homosexual to the threat of criminal incarceration for their activities? Is it going to stop people being homosexual? Is it going to stop people committing homosexual acts? Is it going to Is it going [01:24:30] to contribute in one small part or another to the moral or the mental or the physical health of this community? And the answer to that is so clearly no, that it is very hard to understand how people who adopt a rational attitude can oppose this part of the bill. I ignore Part two because there are separate issues there, even though I support Part two. The real issue, therefore, is what the age [01:25:00] of consent should be, and that is a difficult issue because any age of consent is arbitrary. Any age of consent does not apply to every individual in equal circumstances. Some people are indeed mature, both physically and mentally at 16. Others are not. Others are mature before 16. As my daughters get older and I've had people ask me whether I'm worried about my Children, if this bill passes and since my Children are both daughters, [01:25:30] I have no worries at all. I'm much more worried about some of the mad heterosexuals out there in the community. As my daughters get older, I begin to think that 16 is too young for heterosexual consent. But that is not the issue. The issue is that we have to arrive at an age which anybody who is rational admits is arbitrary because it it cannot apply to each individual equally. And therefore, why should [01:26:00] the age for homosexual consent be different from the age for heterosexual consent. Apart from the legal problems that that creates because anal intercourse is not a solely homosexual act, as the member for papakura should know, it is not a solely homosexual act. It creates difficulties because one simply cannot say that young men or boys I do not care what you call them are necessarily less mature, [01:26:30] necessarily less mature than young women or girls at the age of 16. And that is the issue in front of the house. Mr. Lee, uh, chairman, thank you. The last speaker commitment to liberalism was well established in his house. He first of all said that in the establishment of brothels that I was allegedly to have spoken about, he [01:27:00] was first of all, totally incorrect. I said to the house in the earlier stage of this debate that in fact, young people down, in fact, below the age of 16, in actual fact, could be prostitutes boy prostitutes, and they did not need to in fact, have a place of prostitution or a brothel. They could, in fact, by being sodomised and therefore being prostitutes, that being the person sodomised they can in fact, become prostitutes [01:27:30] by virtue of the law change. That's the important point. They can even solicit an actual fact. They can even solicit under the new law, where at the present time, of course, that's an offence. Under the current law, they cannot keep a brothel that's recognised. He misinterpreted that. He's also well astray with the second point when he talks about those being incarcerated. Sir, this house has heard repeatedly that there has not been one homosexual incarcerated over 14 years [01:28:00] for consent in private by the police. And we get this same steer from the members of the government, sir, who are completely trying to confound what we are about. Now I want to repeat also comments about the law that was affected today in the New York state to do with sexual orientation. I believe the move of the bill made first comment about this. What I want to inform the house, sir, is this [01:28:30] that whilst that law was accepted, Roman Catholic Archbishop of New York Cardinal John O'Connor has said this today also that he will fight the new law by every legal means not to accept it, he said. If he has no redress through those measures. He will close down the Catholic hospitals and schools in the state of New York. For them, he says, to operate under this law, they would not be Catholic, sir. [01:29:00] That is the response of the archbishop in New York State today in response to that law becoming, uh, effective now, sir, that's the measure of the people response in that state. And I put to you is that the sort of thing that New Zealanders have to also undertake to somehow bring back sanity to the population of this country after these issues have taken place, there's another small side here in that the law [01:29:30] changed today. It said that where more than four families are in one group of buildings, one of the additional accommodation units must then be rented to homosexuals. So I just asked the House to ponder the enormity of that particular appendage to the law change today in New York and sir, that is ostensibly based on the victorious argument that homosexuals will be able to come out, declare the situations [01:30:00] and get treatment. Now, sir, that argument is totally fallacious. It assumes, in fact, that these people are not going to come out whilst that law exists. And in that state, particularly there is already a form of decriminalisation, sir, we indeed know what was what is going to happen. There will be those who will come forward seeking medical assistance because there will be an increase [01:30:30] in aid sufferers and homosexuals resulting from the degree of liberalism that the law will introduce. It runs hand in mouth together now, sir, there's an interesting little side in the Crimes Act that I asked the government whip to ponder in Crimes Act Section 201. It says that there was a There was a penalty of 14 years for anybody who will flee or knowingly infects in other with the [01:31:00] disease. And I asked him, and I asked the move of the bill. Indeed, is it their intention now because they're so, so ready to quote other members other sections of the crime that are they in the light of that knowledge? Anybody who willingly not infects another, which covers a homosexual situation in its entirety. Those people then are subject to a 40.

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TITLE: Parliament: second reading debate - Homosexual Law Reform Bill (23 October 1985) - part 2
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VOICES: Bill Sutton; David Butcher; Derek Angus; Fred Gerbic; Jim Bolger; John Falloon
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bill Sutton; David Butcher; Derek Angus; Fred Gerbic; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Jim Bolger; John Falloon; Parliament buildings; Wellington; equality; homosexual; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; human rights; law; morality; politics
DATE: 23 October 1985
YEAR: 1985
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from parts of the debate during the second reading of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill, 23 October 1985 (part 2 of 2).
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: The honourable Mr Falloon. Mr. Speaker, I did not come into parliament necessarily to have to impose my views on moral issues on other members of the society that we are part of. However, I'm not prepared to run away from the responsibility that a member of Parliament has in exercising there the right of a member to vote according [00:00:30] to his or her beliefs or what they perceive their electorate to be on this particular issue. My mind is made up on the basis of personal experience and also of what I perceive my electorate to believe on this issue. I'm bound to say that the personal experience is more important to me than what I have seen coming from the electorate. But it does happen [00:01:00] to coincide, coincide with what the views appear to be from correspondents and people who have discussed the matter with me. We cannot run away from such an issue, and I think that my views would be somewhat different if there were homosexuals being persecuted and confined to prison for their sexual preference. But given that they do not appear to be so, then I will be opposing [00:01:30] the legislation on all its stages. And the reasons really were covered in part by the previous speaker when he suggested that a Kinsey report, which I haven't in front of me, suggested that people could be graded on the basis of a 1 to 6 scale and that many could go either way, I do not perceive Mr Speaker [00:02:00] that as a society we are yet ready to accept that homosexuality is normal behaviour. I also do not see. But as a society we would be prepared to accept that those individuals who, in the privacy of their own homes in a relatively stable relationship, practise homosexual acts. And like most members, given any choice, I would back away from the issue and let the society [00:02:30] make its own mind up according to their own views. But we cannot, as I said earlier, run away from the reality of what is happening in our community and in particular what effects a law of this chamber have on the vulnerable in our society. Parliamentarians have the unenviable task of making moral judgments on others voting in such a chamber, [00:03:00] and we are certainly not perfect in any way. But once again we have to take that responsibility and accordingly explain it to our electorates. I said that I'd had some personal experience. I went to a boarding school where there was some homosexuality and I was in fact one of a prefect, a group of prefects who helped remove a headmaster from his job. A man who [00:03:30] I respected absolutely. I do not know to this day, not whether we were right or not, but what we whether what we did was just. But I do know the effect of the actions of that person on those that came to us and told us of the interference that went on. [00:04:00] And that really typifies why I am strongly opposed, particularly to the age of 16 and in fact, to the older age as well. For the reasons I will discuss a little later on. I don't think that the country is ready yet to see school masters or headmasters with the young, vulnerable people where they may go either way in a position where [00:04:30] they can be exposed to the type of indoctrination that we see so often espoused by the gay movement. And I believe that if the Human Rights Commission, part two of this bill is applied that the Minister of Education will have great difficulty in preventing a large number of active gays from being recruited in such schools. And it will put will put the individuals responsible for the recruitment of those schools, the employment of the [00:05:00] teachers in an unenviable position of having to oppose the law. And I take that view after discussing the matter with people concerned in this area. It's not something that I've dreamt up. It's a matter of discussion and analysis, Mr Speaker. I also consider that if our society was mature and prepared to accept with more tolerance, [00:05:30] the different deviancy, perhaps we could have a different view on the law as before the chamber. But when there is a lack of tolerance on both sides, but more particularly by the activists in the gay movement and I were going to quote one particular example of this, then I do not think that we should accept a law which encourages that type of behaviour. There was a meeting held [00:06:00] in the Hutt Valley, which was supposedly going to be started with a prayer when the Salvation Army major stood up to say Our Lord Jesus, the gay people chanted from the floor, Don't give us that, Jesus Christ garbage! Here he sodomised his own disciples. I don't accept that sort of behaviour any more than I accept the extremists on the other side. [00:06:30] But I don't think that the extremists on the other side on this issue are too concerned about trying to change the sexual preference of 16 year old boys. They may well be trying to help the moral standards as they see, and those moral standards are generally accepted by the majority of our society, including some people in the gay movement. But a sexual preference is a somewhat different matter [00:07:00] than a moral standard and value. And once again I come back to my point that let's at least make certain that those people who can enjoy a heterosexual opportunity in life get the advantage of that as opposed to the possibility of being indoctrinated by the alternative lifestyle of the gay movement. And why do I believe that? Because [00:07:30] I believe very much in the family as the stable part of our society. I don't see that the gay communities of the world are stable. They may well provide an opportunity for people with a certain preference to collect together and do the best they can and good on them if that's what they believe. But as a society here, I believe that what that would achieve is great divisions in attitude [00:08:00] and great stress on the type of society we have, because they become very active politically in all respects. I'm sure that the next stage of that development in New Zealand would be that they wish to bring up Children, and I would absolutely oppose any opportunity for people who are not prepared to get involved in procreation having the right to bring up a family. I have already, uh, if I can [00:08:30] just interrupt the member for for a moment. I've already referred to members in the public gallery, not having any place at all in debate. Now, I'm not sure whether that the same people are involved, but I would point out to them that the gallery will be cleared if there is a repetition of the kind of sniggering that uh has been going on. I hope that is quite clear. The honourable Mr Mr Speaker. [00:09:00] As I said earlier, I think that the law in this case must be a benchmark. As a house, we have to stand up for certain standards of behaviour which we believe in. And many members who are going to vote in favour of this bill say they find homosexuality repugnant. Then I must ask them, Why do they wish to encourage it? Because that is precisely what this law will do. [00:09:30] They can still sell their conscience if they wish to be tolerant by voting against the bill, because the way in which the law is being applied is in a tolerant fashion. But if we don't have that benchmark, then I consider that what will happen is that the very strong activist element in the gay movement will take it another stage further. And it will be the family that's under threat and [00:10:00] then the fabric of our society as well. And I'm not prepared to tolerate that when people are in such a vulnerable situation in modern society. Anyway, with so many of their options being determined not by a family, a stable family background, but by what people perceive as being the experimental society that we're shaped with and exposed to. However, I am conscious of those people in the gay movement who feel very strongly [00:10:30] about human rights and attitudes. And that's why, as I said earlier, if there was clear evidence of discrimination on the basis of these people being charged with offences and if they had to meet jail terms or fines, then I would have a different view, particularly to the age of consent. But at the moment, [00:11:00] Mr Speaker, I do not feel either the gay movement or the society is ready to be tolerant enough to accept the change to decriminalise in the law, not in the practise, but in the law homosexual activity, because I think quite clearly the behaviour of the particular camp in favour of this bill has shown that this is only the beginning of changes that they wish to [00:11:30] achieve in our society and in its attitudes on this issue. Being a politically active group, they are trying to increase their numbers and that says to me that those vulnerable people, if the law is changed, will be more vulnerable than before, and that condemns them to a situation which the majority of our society will never accept as normal behaviour and I do not [00:12:00] want to see more of that group exposed to such a situation. That's why I'm opposed to all parts of the legislation. Mr. Butcher. Uh, Mr Speaker, I would like to congratulate most of the participants in this debate because I believe this debate at the second reading stage has been conducted at a very high standard. Only one or two people have descended to a narrow partisan level [00:12:30] of debate, and most people have debated very seriously the issues which we're confronted with. I personally have never previously contributed to a debate on one of the personal morality questions that have come before this house. There are several reasons for that. One is, I guess, the innate reluctance of many of us to discuss private and personal matters in public even when they relate to other people. There is also, I believe, a natural disinclination to preach or to [00:13:00] lecture others on how they should behave. And as one who has never been blessed with a family, I personally am reluctant to parade my beliefs on this sort of issue in public at any time. But I feel on this bill, I owe it to my constituents to put my views on the record. I intend to support decriminalisation of homosexual activities, consensual homosexual activities. And that, I believe, is the weakness and the argument [00:13:30] of the member who has immediately preceded me in that this bill only refers to activities which are consensual. I intend to support the very greatly strengthened penalties against indecency with young Children and the great improvement that the bill represents. In that respect, I also intend to support the the same age for males and females as it relates to activities with people of the same [00:14:00] sex. At this stage, I have been inclined to oppose the human rights clause in the bill because of what I perceive to be the potentially divisive diversions that that could create. If decriminalised, I am prepared to listen to argument on that matter, and I will look forward to the debate at a later stage in the bill. The main issue, therefore, as far [00:14:30] as I'm concerned, turns on the vexed question of the age of consent. My initial preference was for an age of at least 18. For both males and females. However, experience has surely shown us all in recent history that 18. Indeed, the present age of 16 is honoured as much in the breach as is is, I should say, breached [00:15:00] more than it is honoured, and I believe it would be unfair to be different for anyone. Reluctantly. Then I have come to the view that if the bill is to be passed, it is probably probably the age of 16 is the only logical age to be incorporated in the bill. In actual fact, As I said before, I believe that because the bill only relates to consensual activity, the [00:15:30] practical difference would be very little irrespective of the age written into the bill. Originally, I felt as many members felt obliged to make an effort to sound out the views of my constituents. I wrote my views into the pages of a local newspaper which circulates to every household in my electorate, and, uh, I received a number of letters and telephone calls as a result of [00:16:00] that, however, over the years, because the views that I hold on this I've held for many years, I've entered into commitments based on my beliefs and the evidence that I have seen, I believe in those circumstances, a poll of the sort that many members have conducted could confuse people into believing that numbers would decide the issue. That is not the case as far as I'm concerned and the validity of polls can always be questioned, as my colleague, the member for Eastern Maori [00:16:30] pointed out in his very eloquent speech earlier this evening. In addition to that, there have been a large number of polls conducted by reputable polling organisations and their conclusions have been very similar. Now, Mr Speaker, I think it's important that if one is going to support a measure of this sort, it is important to put on the record how you came to that sort of view. For many, like many of my age group, our personal involvement [00:17:00] in politics began in the mid 1960 S. We were involved. We became involved in political affairs because of an abhorrence of persecution, of the few by the many of the weak by the strong. We were involved in issues such as the war in Vietnam, apartheid, corruption and dictatorship as it appeared around the world, and then this led us to a concern with issues closer to home issues such as poverty exploitation and discrimination [00:17:30] to this. This state of affairs leads naturally to opposition to laws which marked out a very small minority of our population as being different because of matters beyond their personal control. For that reason since the 1969 election, the very first I contested, I have always indicated that I would support a law aimed at decriminalising homosexual acts between consenting adults [00:18:00] following the disclosure or the reiteration, I should say of my views to the electorate. I received, as I said, a number of submissions both for and against. And I believe that most of those submissions were motivated by the highest of motives and very expressed views that were sincerely held. They certainly challenged my beliefs. They required me to put in very detailed terms and replies my views and I enjoyed the vigorous [00:18:30] debate that these letters engendered. But and I certainly would not vote for this bill if I did not feel that the very real fears that have been expressed very sincerely by many people are utterly groundless. I resented the threatening tone of some of the communications that I receive, and frankly, I'm not one of those people who respond in any favourable fashion towards political threats. [00:19:00] I believe very firmly in a pluralistic society, and that involves a number of things. It involves the whole issue of religious freedom. It involves laws which apply to all religious faiths, irrespective of where they occur. I believe that the attempt to impose one set of beliefs on the entire population is a threat to a pluralistic society. Three arguments against this bill have [00:19:30] been mounted by many of the opponents, and I would like to briefly canvass those three arguments and what I feel about them. The first argument has been that this bill is against God's law, frequently cited in support of that contention with Chapter 20 of Leviticus and particularly the, uh, contents of verse 13, which can, uh, concerned if a man has sexual relations with another man, both [00:20:00] shall be put to death. However, those who drew that verse to my attention did not as enthusiastically draw my attention to verses nine and 10, which referred to the question of rebellious Children and the question of adultery. Now the point about that, Mr Chairman, is that under our law, none of these things attracts the death penalty prescribed by the Scriptures. Only one of them attracts a criminal sanction under our law as it stands [00:20:30] at the present time now, to those who say that this bill is against the law of God, my reply is that may well be so. This house has no capacity to change the law of God, but it does not imply that we have to write that into our criminal law. Secondly, many people say that this bill is immoral because homosexuality is immoral. I would be quite prepared to accept the proposition that many people find homosexuality [00:21:00] immoral. Many others find it distasteful. And I certainly would be one of those who find some of the practises described by the member for Hauraki as very distasteful meanings. The first meaning can be that it occurs or does not occur in nature. And that certainly is not the case for homosexuality. Uh, as the uh pointed out already, it attracts mention in the Bible. The [00:21:30] best evidence available indicates that at least 5 to 10% of the population are that way inclined. Much evidence points to the determination of sexual preference preference before the age of five and for those who believe that it is a question of choice. Those heterosexuals who believe that homosexuality is a question of choice, I would ask them, How did they choose their sexuality? I do not believe an argument [00:22:00] based on the question of unnatural in that sense can be sustained. The second context in which you can use the word unnatural is that certain parts of the body are designed for certain functions and should not be used for any other now. As I said before, the member for Hauraki and others have described those things as being very distasteful. But they're certainly not confined to homosexuals. And if if it is the practise that the member wishes to prescribe [00:22:30] it is that which should be made illegal and not the, uh, practise of it by only some people. Those things, Mr Speaker, Of course, as a member of Parliament one does, uh, get involved in the personal affairs of many people as they come to make representations and seek help. And one of the representations I received over the years, which, uh, Dr dramatically illustrated for me [00:23:00] as much as anything. The reason why this bill or something very similar to it should come forward is the question of a young professional person from Hastings who came to see me. He said he discovered in his early twenties that he was homosexual. He revealed this information to his parents, who promptly threw him out of the house and wanted nothing more to do with him. He went to England on a scholarship and in the course of his work there, met a man with whom he subsequently became very intimate. [00:23:30] Shortly afterwards, this person from Hastings had a major accident, resulting in a prolonged period of hospitalisation. The only person in the world who was interested in him and was prepared to look after him at that time was his male friend. After making a partial recovery, he was required to return to New Zealand because his British visa had expired. He wished to bring his friend with him, but was unable to do so because his friend did not qualify under [00:24:00] the immigration policy. Had his friend been female and they were married, he would have automatically qualified for a mission to New Zealand. As the law then stood. I could not even approach the minister of immigration to exercise his discretion because the very act of their living together was illegal under the law. No other person in the world was harmed by their relationship. It was a very sincere and meaningful relationship, and both of them gained a great deal [00:24:30] from it. I would like to say that I believe that a law that creates such distress cannot be a law that is fair and a further submission I received or a further case that was brought to my attention concerned a person who told me that as a 14 year old in the 19 fifties, he said he knew where his sexuality lay. Although he had never heard the word homosexual, he said he still remembered the agony as a 16 [00:25:00] year old after a school dance. When he escorted his partner home, he would be expected to kiss her good night or even hold her hand, and he could not do so. But he said his first brief experience at 17 with a homosexual, his body and his whole reactions were totally different, he said. After many years, he reconciled his sexuality with his religious beliefs. He's now a lay reader in the Anglican Church [00:25:30] and his life cannot be a law that is fair and a further submission I received or a further case that has brought to my attention concerned a person who told me that as a 14 year old in the 19 fifties, he said he knew where his sexuality lay. Although he had never heard the word homosexual, he said he still remembered the agony as a 16 year old after a school dance. When [00:26:00] he escorted his partner home, he would be expected to kiss her good night or even hold her hand, and he could not do so. But he said his first brief experience at 17, uh, with a homosexual, his body and his whole reactions were totally different, he said. After many years, he reconciled his sexuality with his religious beliefs. He's now a lay reader in the Anglican Church, and his lover is a, uh, an [00:26:30] elder of the Presbyterian Church, he says they have lived together for 10 years as happily fulfilled criminals. Mr Chairman, I do not believe that a law of that sort is fair in actual fact, as somebody said earlier that the whole question is really one of community attitudes I do not believe the bill will make much difference to community attitudes. But in this house, we provide pride ourselves on democracy. We pride [00:27:00] ourselves on democracy and what is a democracy if it is not the absolute right to be different and in some circumstances, the absolute right to be wrong in the eyes of everybody else. And for that reason, Mr Speaker, I intend to support the bill in the way that I've indicated the honourable Mr Bulger. Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak on this important issue. I know there are [00:27:30] many other important issues out there in the community, whether it be the level of interest rates, the debt of the nation, the value of the New Zealand dollar, the crises in farming or the problems of exports, all of which are important issues. But tonight, tonight we are seized with the responsibility of discussing the private members Bill, the homosexual law reform bill. It is a private member's bill. I think it's fair to observe Mr Speaker that many would see it, however, [00:28:00] as a Labour Party bill, inaccurate though that is in technical terms, in most matters that members speak on in this house we have, as it were, the support of our colleagues, the support of a caucus position, a consensus that has been reached. And we come and speak and vote in general, and almost universally, according to that consensus on this bill. Like a few others, we have no such [00:28:30] support. Members individually have to make their own judgement, do their own research. If they are of a mind to do so, take their own council. Some canvass the views of their electorates. Some gather their thoughts together in other ways. But finally we have to stand alone in this chamber and make a judgement and vote. According to that judgement, some find making such a judgement extremely difficult, and I cast no aspersions [00:29:00] on them because of that difficulty. Others find it much more clear cut and their views, perhaps, are more firmly held. Pressure is the norm in this type of legislation. Pressure from those in favour and pressure from those against. There are lobby groups that emerge. There are issues that are promoted, some with great vigour and some with a complete lack of subtlety. And there is concern at times that the tactics [00:29:30] of some of the enthusiasts, whether they be for or against, tend to obscure the real issues. I just would say, as I've said before publicly, I would ask that all should display tolerance and dealing with issues such as this that it is not. It is not consistent with the views of either side or the views of anyone that there should be a lack of tolerance for the views of others who may have a different viewpoint on the question [00:30:00] of homosexual law reform. And I want to say also that I don't believe that any member's views are going to be changed because of abuse or threats. I don't believe that. I don't believe that members on a moral question are going to be so easily dissuaded. I think that undervalues the integrity of the members of this house. I was in parliament, of course, one of the few during the last period in when this issue was debated when my colleague, [00:30:30] the member for wait, proposed reform in a much more modest fashion than the proposal currently before this Parliament and I spent some time with him on that occasion and talked with those he believed would be beneficial for me to talk with to give me a fuller understanding of all the issues involved. And I welcome that opportunity to listen and to assess. And I have to say, I finally voted against my colleague's bill. [00:31:00] It is my intention. Also, despite the passage of the years since then and all that has been written and said and stated and commented on to vote against the current bill before this House, much has changed. Attitudes have certainly changed in the community on a number of issues, and it would be correct to observe that what is termed a more liberal view, though some would dispute the word liberal. What is termed a more liberal view has now a greater measure of support [00:31:30] than previously. But there's one other issue that has changed dramatically in the specifics of the debate and the bill that we have in front of us at the present time. That is, sir, of course, the emergence of what was then unknown but now is known the deadly disease of AIDS. AIDS is a fatal disease. It cannot be wished away. It cannot be [00:32:00] pushed under the carpet. We cannot presume it does not exist it does, it kills. There is no known cure, and the most common way of achieve, of of getting Aage is, of course, through male anal intercourse. That is the statistical fact that no one in this chamber can deny the importance of that. [00:32:30] In terms of this bill, of course, cannot be overlooked because what the first part of the bill seeks to legalise is, of course, male anal intercourse. It's as simple as that. It doesn't address the question of whether people can have homosexual love, because, of course, there's no law against that. What there is a law against is the act of sodomy, and it's the act of sodomy to use what is now [00:33:00] a term in some usage but for many, many years was outdated and not used is the means by which the majority of people will contact the killer disease AIDS. And I don't believe I'm not persuaded others may be, I'm not persuaded that this parliament can lightly put that matter to one side in addressing in addressing this bill. And that's one of the reasons, [00:33:30] at least why I am not persuaded to support the bill. I am not persuaded, though I've listened to argument and listened carefully to argument that somehow legalising anal intercourse would make the control of AIDS more possible. I cannot, by the application of any logic, come to that same conclusion. I cannot see how making something that is legal is going to prevent that disease. [00:34:00] There may be others again who can so persuade themselves. I am not one of them. In fact, if it was in any shape or form to encourage more to engage in the act of anal intercourse, the inevitability is there would be even a wider spread of AIDS. Now that is again logic. That, of course, is the experience on the statistics that I have read of other [00:34:30] societies where legalisation has occurred or was practised before. This is a major health threat. And while one does not want to put a financial sign on a moral question, one must observe a major financial question as well. So this chamber must very, very carefully consider that before we vote [00:35:00] on this issue, a major argument in favour of the law. Change is a simple proposition that the law has no place in the bedrooms of the nation, said on many occasions and with some conviction, and I have to say on first hearing it has a comfortable ring about it. It sounds a comfortable notion and perhaps one that one should be persuaded to accept [00:35:30] until, of course, you think a little more deeply and you find, of course, that the law says very precisely, that in many circumstances it has a place in the bedroom of the nation. It certainly says it has that role If you are dealing with the young of the nation, it certainly says that it has a role in the bedrooms of the nation. If you're dealing with heterosexual sex with people or girls under the age of 16, so there is no [00:36:00] basic proposition that the law has no place there. What we have then is a qualified statement that the law from time to time, has a place in the bedrooms of the nation and therefore it's a question of whether it has a place at the present time or on the on the present. On the present issue. I don't believe that there is any member of this chamber who would dispute that young people should be protected. I don't believe there are having [00:36:30] said that. It must be also stated. There are those out there who are active in promoting the acceptability of homosexual acts. Who do There are those who believe that man boy sex is normal. This house does not, and I'm sure never will in my time in it. And I would suspect and hope never. But all I put that point to you is to say that there is, of course, other reforms. If I [00:37:00] misuse the word reform that some would want this parliament to address at some later date, I hope it never will address that question. So this house, Mr Chairman, today or next week or some subsequent date when we come to voting on this bill has to make a quite simple decision on a complex matter. Yeah, Do we legalise [00:37:30] and thereby give some public sanction to homosexual acts between consenting males and depending on your viewpoint, over the age of 16, 18 or 20? So I must say, one of my colleagues has indicated to me he's prepared to support it at 94 But, uh, I suspect that Bulger king country do we give some sanction because we must accept in this parliament [00:38:00] that if we vote in favour of the reform, we are giving some sanction. We must not mislead ourselves to say that what we would be doing is, as it were, just ratifying the status quo and to some extent we would. But we would be going one stage further. We would be saying that in fact it was normal in the eyes of the law and therefore of course, it must widen the occasions [00:38:30] when it could be promoted as a normal and acceptable lifestyle. And I think there are many New Zealanders who have great sympathy for active homosexuals. But who would not want to see that conduct, which is central to the argument, namely anal intercourse promoted or seen by this parliament or seen to have been promoted by this parliament [00:39:00] as normal? I am one. I am one of those, Mr Tim, Mr Speaker. Another argument that is advanced is that of course the law must be amended to prevent harassment, that harassment is wrong and the only way to prevent it is to amend the law and therefore to give the cloak of normality to what is presently prescribed by the law. [00:39:30] And again it sounds attractive that we just as it were, say, make it normal. Therefore, harassment will not take place. The first question that must be asked, Is there any any level of harassment that makes that a major issue? And I know an earlier speaker tonight was drawing on some historical evidence, reminding the house that perhaps it did happen in an earlier time. I have not [00:40:00] read or seen or had presented to me any case in recent times where what's happened in the confines of one's bedroom to use that term has been brought to the attention of the court, where it was action between adult males. So the harassment argument tends to fall down, in my view and in my submission on the grounds that it doesn't have substance in the first place, [00:40:30] I have to say, I'm inevitably brought around when I study this, having read the answers as to yes and no as to whether or not I want to put my name beside the legalising and therefore the normalising of anal intercourse, I cannot persuade myself that it is a biologically normal function for the human body, cannot persuade myself of [00:41:00] that. Some may be able to, but nothing that I have read nothing that I have seen could suggest to me that it was a normal biological function of males to engage in that activity. And therefore, I would have to say I have listened. I have been sympathetic to those who have seen me to talk to me about this issue. I have endeavoured to understand their views. [00:41:30] I have endeavoured to try and see the issue from their point of view, which I believe one must having done all that, I have to advise the house that I will be voting against the bill. Mr. Gerbe, Mr. Speaker, I propose to vote for the second reading of this bill. I believe that adult homosexuality should [00:42:00] be decriminalised to the extent that this bill proposes. Uh, Mr Speaker, I think the the fact that the law has not been enforced in this respect indeed indicates that the law is unenforceable and therefore is in itself an as Mr Speaker. The law [00:42:30] has been no restraint on the development of homosexuality in society. In my experience, homosexual homosexuals are in general very good citizens. Uh, they do a lot of good work and active work in the community, in the social welfare field, in voluntary organisations, they should not be [00:43:00] classified as criminals or subject to the criminal law. Uh, Mr Speaker, other members in this house have covered that point quite substantially, I think are more eloquently than I can make it. I have some concerns about this bill. I have to report to the house that I did conduct a survey in my own [00:43:30] electorate. I sent out 1000 questionnaires to randomly selected electors, and the result of that survey is that the electors and are roughly in equally divided on the subject. In fact, within seven votes, like other members [00:44:00] in this house, I have received enormous amounts of correspondence on the subject. And in respect to those letters from the electorate, the very substantial majority are in favour of the bill. Uh, Mr Speaker, there have been some very eloquent speeches and very sincere speeches from members in this house. Like every other [00:44:30] member, I have been subjected to, uh, submissions from electors, and, uh, but I have not had the benefit of attendance at the select committee hearing so that I have had to rely on what evidence has been presented to me and I want to now refer to the report of the Department of Justice [00:45:00] to the Select Committee and to send to each member and to refer to a section of it which refers to a policy advisory committee on sexual offences in the United Kingdom in 1980 where it says a majority of 10 members of the committee considered that the age for consensual homosexual relations should be reduced from 21 to 18. It went on to say that it is our experience [00:45:30] that between the ages of 16 and 18, girls are on the whole more mature than boys in their approach to sexual relationships, and that in so far as it is possible to generalise, boys have caught up with girls in the process of maturing by the age of 18. The majority also expressed some doubts about contemporary medical opinion that a young man's sexual orientation was fixed by the age [00:46:00] of 16, although it was accepted that sexual orientation was firmly established by the age of 18. I note also from this report, Mr Speaker, that England, Scotland, Wales, our age of consent for homosexual activity at 21 as opposed to 16 for heterosexual activity in New South Wales, is an age of 18 as compared to 16. The Justice Department [00:46:30] report also advises that from the pragmatic point of view, selection of 18 as the age is likely to lessen what appears to be the genuinely held concerns of a considerable number of people in the community. It would also tend to put the bill in the mainstream of reforms overseas. And so far as my own survey in the electorate is [00:47:00] concerned, I, i majority. But a substantial majority voted for an age of an excess of 16, referring either 18 or 20 Mr Speaker, from the outset of consideration of this bill, I used a very simple yardstick. I am satisfied that adult homosexuality should [00:47:30] be decriminalised. I then looked at the question of where an adult comes into the picture, and I fix the age of 18 as being most appropriate. Uh, I think 16 is too young, although whatever figure or whatever age we fix, uh, this will, in any event, be an arbitrary figure. [00:48:00] I believe there is a need to establish a differentiation between homosexual activity and heterosexual activity. I cannot accept that homosexual activity is a normal activity. I believe that Yeah. In spite of hundreds of years of homosexuality practise, some people have said [00:48:30] that there should be equality between the sexes as to the age of consent for both heterosexual activity and homosexual activity that to have a homosexual age would be a higher homosexual age would be discriminatory against young men. They question why young men need more protection than young women. But we already have discrimination against young women. In fact, in respect [00:49:00] to heterosexual activity prohibited under the age of 16, young men have no such restriction in law. They can practise heterosexual activity from capability. Indeed, Yeah, an age of consent is an arbitrary judgement. Taking all things into account. I think age 18 is appropriate for homosexual activity. [00:49:30] Mr. Speaker, I also have some concerns, uh, in regard to the Human Rights Commission amendment. I haven't heard evidence as yet to support the need for this amendment. I have not heard of cases of discrimination against homosexuals either in housing or in employment. Mr. Kirby, I question the amendment if I was the [00:50:00] owner of housing property for rent. I would be quite delighted to rent my accommodation to homosexuals. I think that they are most careful people, most fastidious and, uh proper. And so far as care of the TENANCIES. Is concerned. I also draw members attention to the fact that we have a residential tenancy bill before this house which [00:50:30] I have no doubt will be passed in due course. And that bill provides protection for tenants are evicted from their homes or under threat of eviction so that they can appeal to a tenancy tribunal. In so far as employment is concerned, members will be aware that I have had considerable experience in this area [00:51:00] no less than 23 years in the industrial field. Throughout that experience, I have not had the occasion to take up or have referred to me a case of discrimination relating to the employment of homosexuals or in respect to the dismissal of a worker, because that worker was a homosexual. Uh, [00:51:30] Mr Speaker, I would I believe, uh, that in passing this amendment that homosexuals would be given a privilege indeed that no other person holds a homosexual dismissed from employment. If that person is a worker covered by an award would have the same rights as every other person [00:52:00] as a worker to go to a personal grievance hearing and have his case appealed or determined on finally by the arbitration court and appeal against the dismissal. That is a provision which every worker is entitled to. Uh, Mr Speaker, I am, though, uh, [00:52:30] willing to be convinced on these issues. I have a relatively open mind, but I must say that I haven't heard evidence so far that to convince me that I should change my mind in so far as the age of consent is concerned and the amendment to the Human Rights Commission, I would like [00:53:00] to hear a response to the points I have raised from the sponsor of the bill. And in conclusion, can I compliment her for introducing this bill to this house for placing this issue before us and the people so that the people can have a say through us on the subject? I think she has done it with dignity and courage, and I certainly compliment her for it. [00:53:30] Yes. Uh, Mr Bill Sutton, Mr. Speaker, there's no doubt in my mind that the matter we've been debating is of great importance. It raises fundamental issues. Many of them have been debated adequately already. I'm sure it will play a part in determining thousands of votes in the next election, and I congratulate those members who have already spoken most of them for their sincerity and their restraint. [00:54:00] I find myself with a great deal still to say on this matter. Some of it has yet to be canvassed in this debate. I wish to speak as a scientist and make some comments on the biological evidence relating to homosexuality. I wish to report the views of my Hawke's Bay constituents in so far as I've been able to determine them, and I wish to foreshadow certain amendments that I intend to move in the committee stages. [00:54:30] The widespread occurrence of male homosexuality is a matter of common knowledge and also a matter of scientific record. And for example, Bar has stated that homosexuality is one of the oldest and more commonly indulged sexual behaviours they've referred as many members have to Kinsey's report and to later reports which confirm all the main conclusions of Kinsey. They've noted that most [00:55:00] Children pass through a stage of homosexual expiratory activity, which is not considered either criminal or deviant. And they further pointed out that oral genital sexual practises are no longer considered deviant and marriage manuals now, including they also refer to the fact that a smaller proportion of men persist with exclusively homosexual behaviour throughout their lives. The biological basis of this is still a matter for scientific [00:55:30] debate hold the view that it appears that neither genetic defects nor hormonal influences play a part. There are other scientists who have studied this field who come to quite different conclusions. And I might mention, for example, Money and Earhart, who hold the view that gender identity is critically determined by levels of hormones, particularly sex hormones, during either the prenatal stage [00:56:00] or early post natal development of the brain. In other words, they hold the view. And it does appear to be a strongly held view amongst scientists who have studied this field that there are actual changes in brain structure during development as a result of the hormonal environment which determine gender identity. And if that view is correct, then it follows that homosexuality, in fact is not a chosen behaviour, nor is it something that is likely to be curable. That's certainly [00:56:30] the view, which is put forward strongly by the Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists, who stated in their submission to the select committee that the notion that homosexuality can be treated as a disease is inappropriate and unacceptable. Many homosexuals are leading well adjusted lives and have no need for medical treatment. That's their professional view on the matter. If I can turn from matters of scientific record to some of my own personal observations, [00:57:00] it's apparent to me that male homosexuality is widely prevalent in New Zealand. Like some of the members who have spoken previously. I attended a boys boarding school for five years, and I observed a number of instances of adolescent homosexual behaviour such as, for example, mutual masturbation. It was when I was at school, a small group of boards who openly adopted a homosexual behaviour pattern. They were, by and large, tolerated by the majority. I've since been [00:57:30] told that this is a most unusual occurrence in New Zealand high schools. Several of the members of this group were during my time at the school, involved in a scandal, uh, where they were discovered engaged in sexual activities with boys who had not previously been suspected of having homosexual incarnations. Interestingly enough, it was the latter group, uh, who were regarded by most of the borders as being disgraced, not the former group. Uh, some of those involved [00:58:00] have since attained responsible and respected positions in New Zealand provincial towns with respect to the broader field of homosexual behaviour. A men's discussion group that I joined in the late 19 seventies included two adult male homosexuals, one of whom introduced me to several of his friends. In this way, I learned that many practising homosexuals live outwardly normal lives in our provincial towns. On the question, [00:58:30] which I believe hasn't received enough attention in this debate, the question of the the basic human dignity of male homosexuality Nobody who values literature could fail to be aware that the world of homosexual love is seen as being as rich and multifarious for homosexuals as the world of heterosexual love. The scene for Heterosexuals One of the finest love poems that I know was written by a practising [00:59:00] male homosexual, W a Jordan, and I'd like to quote that poem in this house because I believe it's a reasonable antidote to some of the long descriptions of homosexual behaviour that we've heard from people who regard those behaviours as disgusting. The poem, which is untitled, reads. Lay your sleeping head, my love human on my faithless arm. Time and fevers burn away individual beauty from thoughtful [00:59:30] Children, and the grave proves the child ephemeral. But in my arms till break of day let the living creature lie mortal beauty. But to me, the entirely beautiful soul and body have no bounds to lovers as they lie upon her tolerant, enchanted slope in their ordinary swoon grave, the vision venous senses of supernatural sympathy, universal love and hope, while an abstract insight [01:00:00] wakes among the glaciers and the rocks, the hermits sensual ecstasy, certain fidelity on the stroke of midnight pass like vibrations of a bell and fashionable madmen raise their pedantic, boring cry. Every farthing of the cost or the dreaded cards foretell, shall be paid. But from this night not a whisper, not a thought, not a kiss, nor look be lost [01:00:30] beauty. Midnight vision dies Let the winds of dawn that blow softly around your dreaming head such a day of sweetness. Show I and knocking heart may bless. Find the mortal world enough noons of dryness. See you fed by the involuntary powers. Nights of insult let you pass. Watched by every human love. I believe that there are many testimonials in literature to the very profound, loving [01:01:00] feelings that some male and female homosexuals experience, and we should treat those with the respect it could to all human beings. Mr. Speaker, a land of course, has occupied the attention of the number of the people who have spoken in this debate. I believe that it is a minority practise for both homosexuals and heterosexuals. The [01:01:30] anus is anatomically placed close to the genitals, and some anal stimulation is virtually inevitable during sexual activity. Anal touching and other behaviours are said to be experimented with by many heterosexual couples. Anal intercourse is perhaps less common, But I note that in many of the rape trials reported in the news media in New Zealand, there are also charges of heterosexual sodomy. [01:02:00] There were 331 charges and 46 incarcerations for sodomy in New Zealand between 1973 and 1983 and although there is no record as to how many of those were female and how many male. It's my impression that most of the victims are, in fact female. These numbers are dwarfed by the reported sexual crimes against Children. In 1983 alone, there were 549 reported sexual crimes against girls under 16 and 100 and 53 against [01:02:30] boys under 16. Only 11 of those involved sodomy. My personal view is that homosexual law reform is overdue. As the member of Parliament for Hawkes Bay, however, I've tried to ascertain the views of my constituents. The numbers he signed. A petition against the law reform bill, UH, was 404,849 or 15% of the total electoral population in Hawke's Bay. This was a lower proportion than in many other provincial seats. [01:03:00] There is evidence that that number may be underestimated, although many of those who are opposed would probably not be prepared to sign a petition in April and May, I caused to have carried out a telephone survey in Hawke's Bay using 100 and 20 names selected at random from the electoral roll. 80% of those agreed to answer and of those, 57% agreed that homosexual acts between adult males should be permitted, 43% were against. Just one of the respondents [01:03:30] didn't know the majority of those who were in favour supported either 18 or 20 as the age of consent. And there were similar answers given with respect to lesbian acts. When asked if it should be illegal to discriminate against homosexuals, as in the provisions of Part two of this bill, 68% were in favour of making that illegal in other words, a greater majority than were in favour of decriminalising anal intercourse. These figures are in good agreement with Highland polls [01:04:00] that have been carried out in New Zealand, the most recent of which showed that 61% supported law reform, with 34% opposed, but that only 22% would support 16 as the age of consent. The majority of you then appears to be clear enough, but I must report that this has been a bitterly divisive issue in Hawke's Bay. As in other parts of the country, I've received 100 and 17 letters and telephone calls on the subject and 59% of them were opposed to the bill, 41% in favour. [01:04:30] Some of the views on both sides were highly extreme. I felt them to reveal a frightening depth of hatred. Uh, one constituent declared. The passage of this bill would condemn more souls to hell than a million nuclear bombs. Another described homosexuals as arrogant, vicious liars and stated that he wouldn't want them in the office of the factory, the school or the services. On the other side of extremism. One woman declared that heterosexual men were responsible for all rape, incest, venereal disease [01:05:00] and unwanted lives, and that those opposed to the bill were a radical fringe of inhuman religionists. I also I'm glad the report received a large number of sensible and sincere letters from people maintaining both liberal and conservative views on this issue. The most moving messages that I received came from adult male homosexuals. I shall not read extracts from them because without the personal human details, they would lose their impact, and I do not wish [01:05:30] to risk revealing their identities. Finally, I received six personal leaders from Hawke's Bay ministers of religion. Two were opposed to the bill and four supported it coming to the proposed legislation. It's clear to me that I must support reform of the law both as a matter of conscience and in response to the majority view of my constituents. Because there is such extreme division, I believe it's necessary to try and reach some [01:06:00] pragmatic stance which will broaden the area of agreement and reduce the division. I see no good reason or valid reason for the criminal law to be invoked against notice that I shall move a number of amendments in the committee stages in part one. I believe that the proposed age of consent for anal intercourse 16 is not acceptable to most New Zealanders. If it were to be passed, it would move substantially ahead of public [01:06:30] opinion, not only in Hawke's Bay but in the whole country. And I shall therefore be moving an amendment to the proposed section 142, setting 18 as the age for consent. This would have the following purpose firstly, to make the bill more broadly acceptable. Secondly, to reinforce the current medical opinion that anal intercourse is a dangerous practise, I shall speak at more length on that in the committee stages the suggested age [01:07:00] is the same as the voting age. Finally, by confining that amendment to the proposed section 142, there would be no discrimination between homosexual and heterosexual practises. The proposed sections 1 41 48 which relate to indecency with boys should, in my opinion, remain unchanged. They would bring the section of the Crimes Act into agreement with sections 1 33 and 1 34 relating to indecency with girls. In Part two, I propose to put forward a number of [01:07:30] amendments. Firstly, that the definition of sexual orientation in Clause nine of the bill should be amended to re sexual orientation in relation to any person means the heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual preference of that person. Secondly, I believe that sections 15 3 C 15, 6 and 21 2 of the Human Rights Commission Act should all be amended to permit discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation as well as on the [01:08:00] grounds of sex. These provisions relate to domestic employment in a private household and to any position, authorization or qualification that is for the purposes of an organised religion and is limited so as to comply with the doctrines or rules of the religion or to avoid offending the religious susceptibilities of the adherence provided those amendments or similar amendments can be passed. I intend to support both parts of this bill and I believe that that is acceptable to [01:08:30] majority of my constituents in Hawke's Bay and Mr Angus. So I want to firstly congratulate the four members of this house who have given up so much of their family life and spare time to campaign against this piece of legislation. In order to preserve and maintain some sort of decent order in our New Zealand society. I want to also sir congratulate the organisers of the largest [01:09:00] petition ever to be presented to Parliament on behalf of the very many good and well meaning New Zealanders that went out and worked to solicit support. We can argue about the numbers, whether it's 800,000 or 500,000. It is still the largest petition ever to be presented to this Parliament. Sir, it was amazing the night or the day when the uh, [01:09:30] the mover of the bill appeared on television as that petition was presented to Parliament looking like a startled hen just being chased off her net and well she might have. Well, she might have. She looked startled, confused, and I would have to say shocked because a very large number of New Zealanders had spoken very clearly in that petition. The junior government whip was also in a state [01:10:00] of shock. I guess, sir, because it was shown clearly that this legislation is neither needed nor indeed supported or wanted by a very large majority in our New Zealand society. Mr. Speaker, this Labour government and the member for Wellington Central are clearly trying to destroy and break down the normal strong structures and the very fabric [01:10:30] of a strong a strong family life in New Zealand. Sir, The bill was clearly brought in to create some sort of a smoke screen to divert people's attention away from the failures of the government in the economic fields and to distract the thoughts of people from the shambles that our economy is in today. From the real issues inflation, interest rates, cost of living for our young people, [01:11:00] to endeavour, to legislate or legalise homosexuality for 16 year olds spells disaster, and I certainly will not support any part of this legislation. Nor would the majority of my electorate wish me to do so. I would even go to as far as to say, sir, that there will be some members in this house who will regret their support for this legislation in the next election. And [01:11:30] I believe that members should think for themselves and vote with their own conscience only on this particular issue, Mr Speaker, Homosexuality is an issue which is complex and must be considered with compassion and concern for individuals involved. However, in the long run, society and many, many individuals in it will be worse off if this bill is passed. Sir, the following argument [01:12:00] is frequently put forward that homosexual practise is not immoral, just an alternative sexual orientation as moral and normal as homos as heterosexual practise. Sir, it is certain that if parliament passes this bill, homosexuality will eventually become acknowledged as morally accepted sexual practise. This is certainly the expectation [01:12:30] of the so-called gay rights movement. What, then, is morality, our moral values, merely our moral values merely relative to the current social laws? On what ground, then can homosexual practise, be moral and, say violence be immoral? A popular thought is that any action is OK, provided [01:13:00] it does not harm others. Live and let live. You know the sayings. If this is so then orgies, prostitution, pornography, poly adultery, incs, sodomy of animals and drug abuse, et cetera, provided all parties involved. Consent should not be inferred, interfered with by laws or condemned by intolerant objectors. Isn't that what the supporters or [01:13:30] some of the supporters of this bill are saying? It is surely inconsistent to say that violence in society will always be wrong, whereas homosexual practise may now be regarded as acceptable moral standard. We're talking about violence, and I was disappointed, sir, to read today an article on the tablet where supporters of the homosexual law reform bill have Sava savagely attacked church leaders. The latest [01:14:00] attack is made in the latest issue of art and says the language used shows that whatever happens in the bill, the gays plan an aggressive strategy against all opposed to them. Church. Mr Angus for Wallace. The article also warns that if the bill does not pass, the active element of the gay movement could become very active. Indeed, in spite of the law, it would not be it would be unrealistic not to expect a reaction against supporters [01:14:30] of the bill who may have been seen to be unwise in identifying themselves. However wrong it may be, gay bashers and their families could well find themselves and their property at risk. Do the people who make statements like that deserve any sort of compassion or support? Sir, I've been reliably informed that the whole gay task force right [01:15:00] around the world are watching the progress and the hopeful passage of this legislation in New Zealand. And I wonder why. I wonder why, sir. For many years, many homosexuals remained in the closet, so to say, concealing their behaviour from employers, from friends and even from spouses, many wrestled against their impulses in much the same way an exposer wrestles against the compulsive behaviour that makes him feel [01:15:30] guilty and ashamed. But these are not the people for whom the gay rights laws are primarily designed or who lobby for them because they keep their sexuality private and they are seldom, if ever discriminated against. And I really don't argue against this group. The militant homosexual community, though sir, has sought to overcome the natural revulsion of their behaviour triggered by ef- efforts to polish their image by [01:16:00] efforts that have been largely successful. They have won the support of many people of goodwill, including prominent religious and political leaders. And then they make statements like that as inferred in the tablet. What spillover effects do homosexuals have on society? Mr Speaker? Homosexual act behaviour leads to problems far beyond the circle of the homosexuals themselves. [01:16:30] As a group for examples, homosexuals release both disease and crime into our society to an extent far in excess of their percentage of the population. And research around the world confirms that the connection between homosexuals and ill health has been underscored more recently by the rise of AIDS. The medical community had long known the medical effects of homosexuality. Medical specialists [01:17:00] knew the disproportionate impact on the sick, sick homosexual community of diseases like syphilis, hepatitis a, hepatitis B and so on. Mr. Speaker, although homosexuals may be small in number as one in 10 or one in 20 or, as some estimate, the United States population they carry there over 44 4% of the nation's cases of syphilis, 51% [01:17:30] of gonorrhoea of the throat and 53% of intestinal infections, 40% in the United States. 40% of homosexuals admit to that infection, and one survey in Amsterdam reflected syphilis and about 34% of homosexuals who were attending saunas in that particular country. Sir, diseased home food handlers and public restaurants have been responsible [01:18:00] for major outbreaks of serious disease. Hepatitis A infections and San Francisco and Minneapolis homosexuals, unfortunately, have a rate of infectious hepatitis B 20 to 50 times greater than heterosexual males. It's no wonder, sir, that doctor Seema Dritz, an official of the San Francisco Department of Health, wrote that special precautions are required to protect the [01:18:30] public from carriers who work as both food handlers, bartenders, attendant and medical care facilities, or as teachers and aides and day care centres for INS and for young Children. While gay rights laws have been in effect for the last decade in San Francisco, that city has seen a sharp increase in the viral disease rate of 22 times the national average. Infectious hepatitis increased by 100% [01:19:00] infectious hepatitis B by 300% and other large areas, sir. In that city, 75,000 patients each year, of whom 80% were homosexual males. Yeah, sir. It is interesting to note that in spite of efforts by the South Australian government and agencies and the AIDS task force to alert homosexuals of the dangers posed by AIDS, [01:19:30] a survey in South Australia has found that most have not changed their sexual habits to prevent the spread of this horrific disease, Mr. Speaker, More than 300 young homosexuals were interviewed in Adelaide city bars and then discos where homosexuals are known to meet, and most said that they had not changed their lifestyle or sexual behaviour due to the threat of aid. [01:20:00] Another constant question. Are homosexuals born that way? Although gay rights laws customary speak of the affection or preferences, homosexuals on the defensive frequently say they have no choice. Responsibility. I'm sorry to interrupt the honourable gentleman, but the time must come when I must leave the chat.

IRN: 917
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ATL URL: 
TITLE: Parliament: second reading debate - Homosexual Law Reform Bill (23 October 1985) - part 1
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VOICES: Ann Hercus; Bill Dillon; Frank O'Flynn; Maurice McTigue; Peter Tapsell
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; Ann Hercus; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bill Dillon; Frank O'Flynn; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Maurice McTigue; Parliament buildings; Peter Tapsell; Wellington; equality; homosexual; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; human rights; law; politics
DATE: 23 October 1985
YEAR: 1985
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from parts of the debate during the second reading of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill, 23 October 1985 (part 1 of 2).
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I when the house adjourned? I'm sorry. I just have to check and see what? Right? Uh, and it was so that it's a member in favour of the bill. Uh, and my list, This is my new list. These are the ones? Yes. Uh, it's if those if those rising whose name was earlier it's [00:00:30] at mrs her. The point of clarification you were going to say who was on their feet at the the point of house rising. Who? Who did you say, sir? Well, I, I have called it. The, uh, honourable Mrs Hercus has been called. And the reason for this is that I, uh, with the information that's available to me, I'm trying to arrange the debate so that there are members speaking alternatively for and against the bill. And, [00:01:00] uh, yes, Mr Speaker, Before I was first elected to this parliament in 1978 I made a commitment to my electorate of Littleton that if elected, I would hold a poll or referendum within my electorate on each of the four conscience issues if they arose and provided that no such conscience vote moved through this house so quickly that a referendum was itself physically [00:01:30] impossible to arrange. Mr Speaker, that was for me, a very hard commitment to make to my electorate. I have strongly held views myself on each of the four conscience issue areas, but I had them in back in 1978 and I still have now an equally strong sense of being a representative of my electorate. And I wanted to ensure that the voters of Littleton had [00:02:00] an opportunity to express their views and so guide me my decision to hold a referendum in my electorate in that matter of guiding me as to electorate opinion on conscience issues. Am I not entitled to conclude my address? [00:02:30] In other words, sir, could you clarify your ruling if I may draw 30 minutes ago? If I draw the attention to the members of the house that The Journal of the House replies that even the house was granted that in any vote associated with the order of the day number one private members Bill, the member for Papa, will be entitled to register his vote Now that was on the background, that the member for [00:03:00] Papa would be suspended from the service of the house and the situation and that is the situation. Must be good. Can't be here. I am sorry that the member is suspended from the card you are on here. I am, I presume. The member understands what? [00:03:30] That the me The motion was that the member for Papa be suspended from the service of the house. And that is the motion that was passed again. It's really for clarification, Mr Speaker, The member for Wanga Ray did ask you which member was on his feet when the house rose last on debating this bill, You said you were still trying to determine the issue. [00:04:00] Can it be clarified at this point, whether or not the member for papakura was or was not on his feet when the house rose on this issue last Wednesday? It's no longer available in this house that he for the because of the motion that has passed this house may no longer take notice of the member for uh but it [00:04:30] Mr. McKinnon, Speaker. I request that you take the leave of the house to allow the member for papakura to conclude the speech that he was found last Wednesday. This would be an extraordinary concession because the member for Papakura, in actual fact, [00:05:00] had finished his speech at the time of the conclusion of the of the point of order. Mr. Peter, my my point of order relates to the ruling and to the concession that the House has given to the member for Papakura to register his vote. Now I understand so that you can register your vote in two ways. One by being in the lobby, but usually by [00:05:30] voice in the house. Now, Mr Speaker, does that mean he's entitled to be in the house in accordance with the motion of the house? Or have you given the interpretation that he must remain in the lobby? Yeah, good point. That's a rough one. There is no difficulty about this that the member may return to the house at the time that the question [00:06:00] is put, but that does not entitle him to be present in the house at any other occasion. But he is because the leave of the house was taken and was granted that he should vote then That is absolute and total as far as voting is concerned but does not affect any other procedure. So I hope that I've made it quite clear that a vote on the voices he is entitled to be heard and a vote, uh, in the lobby, he [00:06:30] is entitled to exercise it a fresh point of order. Does that mean, sir, that, uh, a vote that the question be put would occasion my colleague being denied the right to come back to the house? No, No, that that was not granted by leader of the house. It was solely the question that he may vote on standing order number one for private members. Mr. Speaker, I was [00:07:00] saying that a decision to hold a referendum in my electorate on conscience issues is a contract that I have with the people of the Littleton electorate. I don't give up my own views. I choose to share my conscience vote in this parliament with those who sent me here to be their representative in this parliament. And I speak tonight Therefore, in this part of the debate as the member of parliament for lyttleton later in the debate, I will speak as the Minister of Police. [00:07:30] Mr. Speaker, To hold a poll as a secret ballot in a general election is held is quite frankly, beyond my resources. But I, I have done my best to ensure that every voter in the Littleton electorate has had a fair opportunity to to participate in this referendum and by those means whereby their opinions were confidential to them. And there is a particular reason for that. Mr. Speaker, I [00:08:00] am the minister of police, and I have in the last few months had quite sufficient anonymous letters to me by people who have identified themselves as coming from my electorate, but who did not wish to sign their name because they were afraid of the consequences of admitting to a minister of police that they were homosexual. Sure, there was, and is in my electorate, anyway, a compelling reason for a secret ballot. So I had delivered to each [00:08:30] house two ballot papers with no requirement for them to be annotated with the name and address and provided a mechanism for more ballot papers to be acquired. If more than two voters lived in a particular household, even each other out as it was quite enough, ballot papers were returned with only one of the two connected ballots filled in enough to convince me that the voters of the Littleton electorate are pretty honest, Mr. Speaker. Out of the 25,000 [00:09:00] ballot papers distributed or requested, 3731 were were returned. 13 were invalid, mainly because no voting was recorded in any way on those ballot papers and only obscenities. There were thus 303,718 ballot. Valid ballot papers returned. The primary purpose of this bill is decriminalisation of the law [00:09:30] to remove criminal sanctions against homosexual acts between consenting adults. So the first question asked was therefore the central one. Do you support a change in the law to remove criminal sanctions against consenting homosexual acts? Yes or no? Mr Speaker, 1982 votes said yes, 1736 said no. Nearly 3000 returns [00:10:00] a majority. 53. 3% of the Littleton electorate support decriminalisation 46. 7% do not. That may fairly be said to be fairly evenly divided in my electorate. I intend, in taking account of the views of the electorate and the majority view expressed to vote for removal of criminal sanctions against consenting homosexual acts and there is an additional interesting element which should be noted. [00:10:30] The hay petition against the bill claimed that 5139 people in the Littleton electorate signed that petition. I, with a team of helpers, went to a great deal of trouble to search every single one of the boxes containing all the petition sheets presented to Parliament and then to Xerox every sheet I could find with a Littleton electorate address on it. I could only find 1500 names, Mr Speaker, [00:11:00] not 5139. I then had all those names and addresses checked, and of them, only 1300 were on the Littleton roll or or who had been added to the role since it was last published. The return from my own referendum for those who opposed the bill was 1736. I would speculate therefore, and I think, quite reasonably, that the hay petition seems to have somehow totally [00:11:30] overrepresented and misrepresented the figures of those who are opposed to the bill who live in the Littleton electorate. Mr. Speaker, I asked two supplementary questions on that ballot paper which flow from the central question of decriminalisation one related to the age of consent and the other to the change in the Human Rights Commission Act to include sexual orientation amongst the grounds on which it would be unlawful to discriminate. [00:12:00] As those who did not support decriminalisation often made it very clear in notes to me that they did not support any age whatsoever, I turned to the views of those who supported decriminalisation. The referendum shows that 75% of those who support decriminalisation support the age of 16 as the age of consent. 25% support other alternatives. The third question, as I said, concerned an amendment to [00:12:30] the Human Rights Commission Act again. Of those who supported decriminalisation, 85% supported this change. Also, Mr Speaker, on the basis of this Littleton referendum, a majority support decriminalisation and of them a majority support the age of consent at 16 and a change to the act to prevent discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation. My own personal views exactly [00:13:00] coincide. I am a Christian and a family woman. My God is not punitive or oppressive. My church submits that the present law and attitudes in society are harmful to the individual who has homosexual orientation, since they force him to deny his sexuality as a person and an integral part of his identity. As a person, I see the values of a loving New Testament [00:13:30] God reflected in an acceptance of homosexuals in a non judgmental manner. As fellow citizens equal under the law, I am a family woman. Homosexuals are part of families. I support strong and loving and tolerant family life where every child is loved and accepted for what they are and adults are Children of parents. I remember Mr Speaker as a law student in jurisprudence lectures, [00:14:00] studying the question of distinguishing morals from law, John Stewart Mills asserted the view much later, reasserted by the British wolfenden report on homosexuality that legal coercion, the weight of the criminal law can only be justified for the purpose of pre preventing harm to others. This bill makes it very clear that where a sexual act occurs between males where one party [00:14:30] does not consent, that is a crime. The bill also provides that any homosexual act with anyone under the age of 16, as it is now with heterosexual acts remains a crime criminal, criminal penalties. Legal coercion in those circumstances is justified for the purpose of preventing harm to others. Law and morality are overlapping circles, sir. Morality condemns murder, [00:15:00] as does the law. Morality may condemn adultery. The law does not. We as lawmakers have the responsibility of deciding not where morality lies, but where the law should lie. The criminal law, in my opinion, has no place in the sexual behaviour either of men and women where there is consent between two caring partners. Yes, Uh, Mr [00:15:30] Mr Speaker, I want to begin by commending Pardon me, my colleague, the member for Wellington Central, for her courage and her tenacity in promoting this particular bill. I know how sincerely and how deeply she has felt about it, and I think we all know the tension that she has faced in these last few months. At the same time, I want to mention those people who, feeling equally strongly that the bill should not proceed, have gone to tremendous [00:16:00] lengths. Some would say inordinate length to prevent its passage. Mr. Speaker, Despite the tremendous publicity that this bill has aroused throughout the country, the General public are in fact very poorly informed on the effects of the bill. I thought that the member for North Shore summed the matter up very clearly. He said that there are two parts. The first part modifies the Crimes Act, the second the human rights legislation. In the first part, there are two [00:16:30] essential changes. The first is to remove or modify section 142 of the Crimes Act, which which it makes sodomy and certain indecent acts illegal. The second part relates to the age of consent and the first part, and the second part of the bill sounds peculiar, but it also relates to the human rights legislation and would make the provision that those persons who have whatever their sexual orientation [00:17:00] would enjoy the protection of the human rights legislation. Now, Mr Chairman, Mr Speaker, before going to the first part of the first part of the bill, which is that section modifying Section 1 42 of the Crimes Act, making sodomy between consenting adults legal and that is the crucial element of the bill. Indeed, the other two sections are in in the main consequent upon the first part, and I'll come back to that in a minute. But I want to draw attention [00:17:30] to one or two matters that have arisen during the debate, and I want to make clear that what I have to say is to be seen as no way condemnatory either of the two major groups or any other member who has spoken. Let me mention first the polls. And if the polls have shown nothing else, they have shown how unsuccessful and how inaccurate that method is in determining the wishes of the majority of an electorate. For example, a member might very well state publicly [00:18:00] and at length his or her own view first and then seek from the electorate their view. One would have been surprised to find an unbiased opinion obtained in that way. But more importantly, the base, the the essential feature is what was the question? Asked if, for example, the question was, Do you believe that homosexuals are presently persecuted and that ought to change? And many would say that is the effect of the bill. I think the answer would have been in support of the bill [00:18:30] equally if you had said, Do you believe that sodomy between consenting adults ought to be Condoned by the law. I think the change might very well have been to the alternative, the second point raised by many people. Many people put forward the view that they would support part one of the bill making Sodom illegal on the grounds that it was not abnormal, no danger to the participant and not to anyone else. But they could not bring themselves to support the other two changes. [00:19:00] Now, if, in fact, sodomy is normal, sodomy is no danger to the person, and there is no danger to anyone else. What justification is there for making a different age of consent for homosexuals as compared with heterosexual or alternatively, if indeed, a homosexual is not to break the law? What good grounds are there for denying that person the protection of the human rights legislation? Someone said. And indeed, it was the major part of the argument that sending homosexuals [00:19:30] to jail is clearly a fault. So it is. If that is the case, why are we sending those homosexual as an aside that apart from those who are a threat to public safety or who persistently refuse to take part in community rehabilitation. No one should go to jail. Several people raised the point that there are countries overseas who have already done this in some way. New Zealand has lagged. And yet I heard not one shred of evidence [00:20:00] that would say that as a result of the change, any one of those countries is the better. Many people raised the point that it was unreasonable that lesbians, homosexuals and women should be treated differently from homosexuals. And yet, Mr Speaker, it would seem to me that anyone with the meanest intelligence and no more than passing knowledge of human physiognomy would see that there is a very real difference which cannot be denied. The last point I want to mention [00:20:30] of the points that came up that were interesting was, I want to draw attention to the almost pitiful reliance on so-called expert witness, particularly that relying on lawyers or doctors, there is an almost craven a basis on medical evidence. How often have we in select committees had person sit down and say I am a doctor of two years standing? This is my view and then proceed to give the most ridiculous rubbish. [00:21:00] Mr. Speaker, I was for 20 nearly 30 years as a consultant surgeon, and in the early part of my career I carried out a good deal of surgery, some of which I now know, was at best, worthless. Some of it was frankly harmful. Yet at the time it was backed by irrefutable evidence, and we did it with the best intention. Medical expert. Witness is a very useful tool in the hands of those who know something about it. It is a fearful weapon in the hands of those who either do not [00:21:30] know a lot about it or are determined to use it to support their own cause. The medical evidence presented by the health department was an example. I read the evidence clearly. Many people put forward views saying it was in the health department, but it was not. Now, Mr Speaker, I want to come back to the essence that relating to section one of the bill, whether or not sodomy and certain indecent acts ought to be Condoned by the law and our law, Mr Speaker is [00:22:00] in general concerned with a set of rules determining the use of force by the state, those occasions in which the state ought to interfere in the activities of private persons in the interests of the majority. It should be noted that we are not concerned with whether or not sodomy is good or bad still left with whether it is right or wrong, we are concerned with whether or not it should be Condoned by the law. Now that is the difference. The human [00:22:30] race, Mr. Speaker, All of our actions have been condo been promoted by passions, impulses, desires. And it may well be said that a person acting on the spur of the moment can be forgiven for some action, which the majority would not condone. But there is no similar case to be made for the person carrying out an action which he or she has had time to to consider. Indeed, the one thing that distinguishes us from all the other animals [00:23:00] is that we have the ability of conscious, discretion conscious determination. Now it may well be said, and some have that sodomy is a normal variant among the human desires, many are physiological and strong, but second only to that for self preservation is procreation the sexual drive. But it is well known to us that complex physiological reactions like the sexual drive, are bound [00:23:30] to run awry at times and within within, Uh, I think before the sorry sorry to interrupt the member, but before the, uh, before the member proceeds, I think it should be made clear to people in the public gallery that there are no participants in this debate. And, uh, they are not entitled to make any form of verbal or other, uh, interception into the debate. Um, I hope I've made myself clear and that we not and and that, uh, members [00:24:00] of the public will will not, um, take the matter to the point where we will have to take some more appropriate action. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Thank you. They were in no way concerning me. The human activity is governed by by by passions and second only to the drive for self preservation. Is that for procreation? The sexual drive runs Ari at times, and we do know that the sexual reaction can run awry to the extent that it can run [00:24:30] to events of shuddering aversion. Quite clearly abnormal in any sense, quite clearly abnormal. The law Mr Speaker may not have any part in private morality, but it clearly has a part in civic morality. It seems to be unreasonable to say that the law is concerned simply with the protection of the property and the person, but has no no action in civic morality seems to be quite clear that it does. It seems to me that the [00:25:00] law has a say or ought to have some say in whether sodomy is is Condoned and, moreover, that persons ought in some way to abide by the law. Now I want to go to my own particular concerns about the bill, and they are these. There are three in the first instance. I think that whatever happens to the bill, whether it passes or fails, and it will probably pass, I wonder what people's expectation is of the change. [00:25:30] What will the change be? My own view is that it will make no difference for anyone very little. I think it'll be a nine day wonder because the sanction against homosexual acts acts of severity. Sodomy is not the law. The sanction against them is public oblique, and that will not change. The mother who finds her son as suddenly as a homosexual will still feel that chill from now to the end of time. [00:26:00] This the public obviously will not change the second point I want to mention, and it would be wrong to leave the debate without mentioning it. Is the disease aids artificial immune disease artificially in acquired immune disease? My own view, Mr Speaker, is that we will see quite a severe epidemic of AIDS that has been the the problem abroad, and I see no reason why it ought not to be here. And whatever [00:26:30] the grounds for saying that AIDS is a heterosexual disease in other countries, one could certainly be forgiven for believing that in New Zealand it is still very much a homosexual disease. Very much regretfully, we are in the States. We were with cigarette smoking about 10 or 15 years ago when we believed that we could conquer an epidemic with contraception by using philtre tips, we, in some way ameliorated the carcinogenic effect of cigarette smoke. [00:27:00] We now know that the one way to prevent the carcinogenic effect of cigarette smoke is not to smoke, and I think that point needs to be made very clear to everyone throughout New Zealand. There is some wild belief that we will conquer the epidemic of AIDS with the provision of contraception that Mr Speaker will, I think, prove to be false, and we will regret it. The last point I want to make is this that throughout [00:27:30] history, human societies have set for themselves the standards. Some acts have been enjoined. Some acts have been forbidden, some have been applauded. Some have been abhorred. That has been the history of mankind, right throughout history and human reaction to any particular act has changed to a remarkable degree over a course of over the course of time, towards the acceptance of an act [00:28:00] and away from the acceptance of an act not, as we would think, a gentle oscillation like a pendulum, but gradually and consistently away from the accepted norm of the day, always probing at the borders, always going beyond what is generally accepted more and more beyond, always beyond, until eventually the swing back comes not as a smooth swing back but often suddenly and sometimes savagely. That has been the case of history. Throughout, [00:28:30] as humans, we can see past history a lot more evenly than we can recent history. We can all look back to the Greek, the classical Greeks or the industrial Italians and see the light. We can all see the hills in the distance, but none of us can see the ground just in front of us. We have forgotten that in this century, in the most sophisticated and civilised country in the world, we saw justice a gradual move away from the standards until a sudden reversal [00:29:00] and whatever we think of the change. True in the main it was due to economic change. But so far as it affected the middle classes and the upper classes who weren't depended on the economic changes, Hitler and his group depended on the on the on the the view of the middle class and the middle class's objection was not economic. It was to the sudden loss of the standards of the people. Hitler was voted into power and indeed he retained the majority support of the German people right up [00:29:30] to within months of his final collapse and among the middle class and the upper class. The support was due not to the economic change but to their fear that the public standard was reducing Mr Speaker it is my belief that the public of this country have now got close to the stage are getting closer to the stage where the change will come. I regret it. I hope it doesn't occur. I hope it doesn't occur, but I feel the cold winds of history drawing closer to [00:30:00] us. I think there is a feeling and many times the morality of homosexually will be unreasonably blamed for it. Of the lack of respect for the law, of murdering rapes, beatings, bashing of the more far out pressures of the feminist movement of the more violent activists of the Maori movement. And along with them all the moralities and the shift away from the from the standards of the day. I think there will be a change, Mr Speaker, and I think [00:30:30] that when the change comes and it will, it will. Those who are responsible will not be solely those who lead the march back, but in part, those who in the decade earlier had laid the ground that made it inevitable. Mr. Speaker, I had not the facilities to carry out a poll in my electorate. And if I had I believed that my electors would have had sufficient good senses to put it in the fire. But I have been around the electorate [00:31:00] and I have spoken to people on at meetings right throughout my elector, and I believe I could fairly accurately sum up their feelings quite as accurately as some of the polls I've heard. And I think I could sum them up in this way. They would not wish homosexuals to be persecuted abnormally. They would not wish that they would not wish sodomy to be made to be Condoned by the law. They would wish to return to the individual the right as to whether he [00:31:30] or she employed or provided accommodation for a person who they felt was was was homosexual. That sets out very clearly the view of my electorate. It is also my own view, and I will vote accordingly. Maurice McTigue. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr. Speaker, this is a matter of conscience and as a matter of conscience, we, the members of this house, have to decide [00:32:00] whether it is right or whether it is wrong to decriminalise the act of sodomy. And it is not a persecution of homosexuals, but it is dealing with a physical fact. And in dealing with that physical fact, the law of this nation to date has seen fit to prescribe that activity as being contrary to the best interests of society as a whole. For all of those members in this house, it is a time to [00:32:30] be counted a time to be counted when we must exercise the standards of values that are part of our nature. But aren't all the matters that we refer to in this house matters of conscience? Should we not always exercise those standards and values which we have been brought up with? There have been comments made that we should be keeping separate God's law and man's law, but isn't most of the law that we [00:33:00] pass here part of God's law as well? And don't we make an appeal to God at the beginning of each day in this chamber before we sit down to consider the affairs of the nation? Mr. Speaker, it's not a time for aggressive rhetoric, in my opinion, because I believe that aggression enthuses those who support you in an issue like this, antagonises those who oppose you and tends to alienate those you need to convince to win your cause. [00:33:30] The value judgments that I have used to form my opinion on this basis on the basis of this particular issue are my life experiences to date my personal family background, the kind of family that I lived in, the kind of things that my parents and those that I lived with, my brothers and sisters and the rest of the family around me and the community around me taught me to be the basis for exercising [00:34:00] my judgement, the education that I received and Emerson once described in education as the sum total of our experiences to date. And I think that that is pretty important. In fact, it's quite crucial to the argument with regard to this particular debate. Homosexuality, in my opinion, and according to the evidence of the expertise that I have been able to glean information from, is [00:34:30] not a condition we are born with. Like a club foot. It's not a hereditary or a genetic condition. It is a result of conditioning. Maybe that conditioning is the result of bad family experiences. Maybe it's the result of peer pressure. Maybe it's the result of the growing environment in which we were nurtured. But it is quite conclusively, in my opinion, a learned experience [00:35:00] and it is a learned condition as a learned condition. I believe that it can be dealt with by the standards and the values that we have learned by the standards and the values that teach us self-discipline in other areas by the standards and values that teach us to exercise the judgement of right and wrong and our dealing with other people. It is a learned a deviant activity. It is an aberration of normal sexual behaviour. [00:35:30] Many people are trying to convince us at this time that it is just a different sexual behaviour. It is not a different sexual behaviour. As the speaker before me indicated to this house. One of the strongest emotions that mankind experience is is the motion to procreation and normal sexual behaviour, as the fulfilment of that emotion to recreation and procreation [00:36:00] in that emotion to procreation is instilled in mankind the perpetuation of the species. It goes back many thousands of years and it has been that the species has been able to sustain all all sorts and kinds of shocks upon it during that period, of time. The cult of humanism says to us today that if it is, if it is pleasurable, [00:36:30] why not? It is only an an alternative expression of sexuality. I totally reject that because if we were to use that code for the determination of our lives and of our values and of our laws, we would have a situation where society could apply that principle to all sorts of other deviant behaviour. And that, to me, would be totally unacceptable. The codes of society have [00:37:00] always regulated and disciplined the exercise of sexuality. We have laws that prescribe having sex with a heterosexual partner before the age of 16, and we accept that we have laws that prescribe having incestuous relationships. And we accept that they are no doubt and many instances for the participants where they are both agree that the activity will take place. They are no doubt pleasurable, [00:37:30] yet we prescribe them by law. Why should we now decide that? Because this is a demand of the flesh and described by many as, in my opinion, an aberration. But by in the eyes of some people described as an alternative expression of sexuality, and I cannot and will not accept that homosexuality is, in my opinion, the total rejection of the normal love patterns that there is between man and wife [00:38:00] that live to procreation. That and that bring the family into being. And the family is the cornerstone of our society. Anything that brings about the degeneration of that family unit will ultimately bring about the degeneration of society as well. For those reasons, we now in this parliament should be prepared to act as have the lawmakers before us to see that the fabric of that society is not torn apart. [00:38:30] If we allow that to happen, then not only will we see degeneration of the family unit, we will see degeneration in the forms of violence among members of society. We will say, see degeneration in the form of the home and family life that is provided for the Children of those families. We will see a general degeneration and all of the values that have gone to make this a very pleasant nation in which to live. [00:39:00] Mr. Chairman, if you accept the cult of humanism, what else could you and would you have to accept? I believe that if you accept the concept that this is an alternative expression of sexuality. Then you would have to be prepared to accept that the same principle applied to sadism, to bestiality, to prostitution, to euthanasia, to [00:39:30] incest. There is a time and a place for society to say through its lawmakers that there is a time and a place for it to say Stop. And I believe that on this issue, society has given us just that direction. 830,000 people have said that many people will try to bring that expression into discredit. But even if you discredit 1/5 of them, [00:40:00] there are still over half a million people in New Zealand who have said no, who have quite clearly and distinctly said no. There has been no other issue to the annals of the history of this nation who has brought that has brought people voluntarily forward to express their determination on a matter like this to such a massive extent. Personally, I haven't polled the people in my electorate. I said to the people in my electorate at the time of the by-election [00:40:30] that you accept me with my standards and my values and that you can expect me to use those standards and values and exercising my judgement on your behalf as your representative here in this parliament, and that's what I intend to do. My values are not negotiable. They are not something that's going to be swayed. However, there are 15,059 people who have signed the petition [00:41:00] in my electorate 15,059 people. The Timaru Herald during the election campaign conducted a number of polls, and it's interesting to note the comments that were made in response to some of the questions that were asked in those polls. On Wednesday, the 12th of June 1985 the Timaru Herald conducted a poll and it says that moral issues and the state of the economy remain the issues most concerning Timaru voters [00:41:30] in the lead up to the by-election. They were the key concerns in the Timaru Herald poll conducted two weeks ago, and they remain the leading issues in the latest poll. Of the 600 people polled, 21. 8% said moral issues were particularly important issues in voting among the intending national voters, moral issues were identified as the most important followed by the state of the economy, taxation and then [00:42:00] inflation and the cost of living labour. Voters identified moral issues as the most important, followed by the state of the economy. Unemployment and the cost of living moral issues and taxation were of most concern to intending voters for the Social credit Party. So it went right across the spectrum of all parties. They were quite evenly polled across all of the electorate and they came up with the same determination, regardless of their political [00:42:30] affiliation, that they were very concerned about this particular piece of legislation that they were looking for a representative who would take to this parliament their concerns on this particular cause. Mr. Chairman, there are additional provisions to this bill which I find to me totally repugnant. And that is the condition which is attached to the end of the bill that brings this particular legislation under the protection of [00:43:00] the Human Rights Act. I believe that it is incredibly important to the people of our nation that they have the right to have their Children educated in a climate in which they can determine the kind of morality that may be taught. There the passage recently through this parliament of the Education Amendment Act fills me with grave concern that the provisions under the human rights legislation attaching to this particular act [00:43:30] would mean in teaching sexuality in schools. The teachers would be obliged by law to teach on an equal basis as an alternative sexuality, homosexuality and lesbianism. And that, to me, is totally repulsive. And that, to me, is one of the major reasons why I would never be prepared to accept this. I also would want to preserve for all time the ability to be able to sanction whether or not the person that I [00:44:00] employed as a investor in a church, as a dormitory master in a school, as a nurse, as a policeman or in any other areas where people came into constant contact with the public. I would want to be able to determine that that person was not going to exploit those people for aberrant sexual behaviour, and there is no way that I would be prepared to move from that particular consideration. It is abhorrent to me, [00:44:30] and I believe that it is most important to the protection of the ultimate lifestyles of our young people that we do not have that forced upon us. Mr. Speaker, there are many issues which will be canvassed during this debate. There will be many prejudice, prejudices which will be aired. There will be many people who will find quite unacceptable the decision that is made by this parliament. Whatever that may be. Those people, I believe in many instances [00:45:00] have brought their considerations to this parliament with the very best of intent. But I do believe that many of them have been gravely misguided. I do believe that the experience of ancient history has taught us that as soon as we allow the moral standards of our society to relax, then our society as a whole begins to degenerate. And I believe that having sanctioned this particular piece of legislation and made legally act of sodomy, we are right [00:45:30] on the course to see that degeneration start immediately. There are so many problems within our society now that I do not believe that we can invest another problem upon the shoulders of that society. I personally believe that the homosexual within our community as a predatory being the investigations that I have conducted personally indicate to me that homosexuals during their lifetime will have a multitude of partners. If we take away from [00:46:00] it may well be an interesting experiment for that member. It will never be an interesting expe experiment for this member. And I'm very pleased to be able to tell this house that, Mr Speaker, I believe that the protection of our of our total nation is dependent upon the passage of this particular legislation. I urge my colleagues in the House to accept the importance of this legislation, to give it the consideration that it deserves not to be swayed [00:46:30] by the feelings that may have been engendered among their colleagues who have been forcing them to try and give a favourable consideration not to be swayed by the fact that there are people who have been most vocal in recent weeks and trying to persuade good people that they should change their attitudes. I believe that we have to take a stand now for the protection of the moral fibre of our society, and this is the opportunity that this Parliament has [00:47:00] the honourable Frank O'Flynn, Mr Speaker, For the second time in just a few weeks, this house is again confronted with a private members bill to which no party will be applying its whips. But all members will be free to vote as they wish. Some of them, I believe, on polls, some according to their conscientious view of the matter, one way or the other. Mr. Speaker, In those circumstances, I feel it necessary to give a brief explanation of my [00:47:30] views and the way in which I intend to vote. But Mr Speaker, before I do that there are one or two preliminary things that ought to be said. The first is, and I think I said the same thing to the now member for Waiter, formerly the member for Egmont 10 years ago. The first is that I have to congratulate the member for Wellington Central for the carriage she has displayed in producing and promoting this bill. Because I was here when the member for wait did the same. And [00:48:00] I've also seen some other private members bills, and I know what happens to the person who is in. If I may put it so in the eye of a storm like that. Now, the second thing that I feel it necessary to say was really illustrated by the first two speeches this evening we heard, sir, two eloquent telling speeches in absolute opposite contradiction, contradictory points of view and to some extent, that indicates the difficulty [00:48:30] of dealing with the matter. I think, sir, that the debate, as usual in this kind of circumstance, has actually done the house in the main considerable credit. There has been a great deal of wisdom in some of the speeches. Even when I didn't agree with the end result, there have been a lot of prophecies, some of them gloomy and hopefully wrong. There have been a lot of shrewd observations about human nature, and all in all, anybody who listened to the debate would be sure to have learned something. They might not be entirely [00:49:00] sure what he ought to do with the bill. Now, Mr Speaker, usually I try to keep my moral views to myself. Unlike, I regret to say, some of the opponents of this bill or indeed, some of its supporters who have endeavoured to shove their moral views down other people's throats, sometimes not very scrupulous about the way in which they dealt with them. So I have actually got I think a fairly [00:49:30] reasonably unemotional and somewhat pragmatic view of the matter. But I will start by saying what my view about the problem really is. I am actually among those who regard homosexual conduct as wrong, immoral or, if you like, sinful to use a word that is now unpopular and out of fashion. Because, of course it it expresses a moral judgement. And that's not popular, in my opinion. Also, Mr Speaker, it is actually impossible [00:50:00] to argue that such acts are either normal or natural for men. I personally think that that conclusion is really self evident because, as has been pointed out by one of the earliest speakers this evening, mankind's instinctive sexual urge perhaps the strongest or at any rate the second strongest after self preservation of the instinctive drives and urges that he has is linked to the act by which procreation takes place. And that is, of course, necessary [00:50:30] for the perpetuation of the race as it is for all other living creatures. But Mr Speaker, I do not propose to pursue those moral problems any further because they are not the questions that the bill raises. The question raised by the bill is not whether that kind of conduct is normal or abnormal, moral or immoral, but whether it could continue to be criminal. Now, as another speaker pointed out earlier this evening, [00:51:00] it is not the purpose of the criminal law to condemn everything that is immoral. Still, this must it condemn everything that is abnormal. Some conduct that is immoral or abnormal is also criminal, and examples were given of that Some. Indeed, much such conduct is not is not disapproved by the criminal law. Now, Mr Speaker, the next thing is that it is equally clear to me. And I'm glad to say to most members of the house that in exercising [00:51:30] a conscience vote, a member ought not just to give reign to his personal opinions or what some other members might think are his personal prejudices. He ought there, I submit to exercise his vote in the way that, in his conscientious judgement, he thinks is best for society. And that was the view that I think was expressed quite well. Uh uh uh. A few nights ago by the member for North Shore, Mr. Speaker at the time. The bill was introduced [00:52:00] 10 years ago by the then member for Egmont. I said in this House that after giving serious thought to the question whether this sort of conduct ought to continue to be criminal, I had reached the conclusion on balance that it ought not to be. And I am still of that opinion. I didn't reach that conclusion either lightly or easily. And Mr Speaker, I am certainly not persuaded that large numbers of people are being deprived by the present law of some right to sexual expression that they ought to [00:52:30] have. But that is a matter, sir, that I'll discuss very briefly. When I come to Part two, let me concentrate for the moment on part one, Mr Speaker. There are three quite narrow and somewhat pragmatic grounds on which I reached the conclusion that homosexual acts between consenting males of a proper age and I choose that expression carefully should no longer be criminal. And I can put each of them, sir, in not more than one or two sentences. First of all, Mr Speaker, [00:53:00] I know and experience in legal practise serves to confirm that for many years criminal proceedings have hardly ever been taken in the circumstances to which this bill is mainly directed, namely acts of consenting adults of full age in private honour. Mr. Flynn, I know again my own experience in legal practise confirms that tremendous and dangerous pressures are exerted on male homosexuals [00:53:30] under the present law, and that is a subject that I'm going to come back to. But those pressures, sir, lead to all kinds of objectionable activity and frequently lead to serious crimes. Blackmail, Mr. Speaker, I turned up to the speeches that I delivered on the bill 10 years ago, and I see that during the second reading, I actually referred to the fact that several charges of murder had arisen not long before those debates, if not out of homosexual conduct itself, [00:54:00] at least in a setting of homosexual relations. Voting on the bill because of concern. I felt at that time about the behaviour, actions and statements of some of its over enthusiastic supporters. They were trying, as indeed they are now to say that this is a permissible alternative lifestyle, or even that it is a good lifestyle. They were threatening to try to encourage and spread it as far as they could now, sir, [00:54:30] that it was that kind of conduct that actually persuaded me, in the end that the only course available to me was just to decline to vote. Mr. Speaker, The conduct of the supporters of this of the bill this time has been, I think, really pretty much the same. And in a worse still, in a way, this time they've been joined by many of the opponents of the bill, and their conduct has been, if anything, rather worse. So we have seen gross intolerance on both sides shouting down of [00:55:00] the other's opinion. Personal insult and objectionable forms of pressure have been used by both the lobby groups. Mr. Speaker, the rest of the story, as far as that conduct is concerned, goes like this in 1975 because one might say of electoral misfortunes, I had to return to the practise of the law. And soon afterwards, sir, one case in which I was professionally involved illustrated for me once and for all the gravity [00:55:30] of the precious to which homosexuals are subject under the present law. And it persuaded me in one hit that the reform this reform of the law is necessary in the public interest. I'm sorry to have to say, Mr Speaker, that the the case concerned also showed how very badly some members of the police force treated homosexuals. At least at that time, it was clear from the evidence that they were harassed beyond belief in the street and [00:56:00] elsewhere simply because they were homosexuals. The case itself actually concerned disciplinary action against the policemen and that at least showed that the police management was opposed to that kind of conduct. But the evidence was an absolute object lesson to me. I was simply shocked without going into the details of what was revealed at the hearing. Now, Mr Speaker, it is for that reason that on this occasion I am going to support part one of this bill. In principle, though, I do [00:56:30] that rather as one choosing the letter of two evils or supporting without too much enthusiasm, a legal reform that seems to me to be justified in the imperfect world that we live in now, sir, How to vote? Well, the way I vote may in the end depend on the age that is decided upon 16 in the bill. I would prefer 20. I am prepared to go along with 18. If that is defeated, then, sir, I've got an anxious question [00:57:00] in front, and I'm not going to reveal at the present moment what the answer may be. In fact, I haven't actually determined what the answer may be. I may be loath to see the reform defeated. I will just simply leave that there. Now, Mr Speaker, I come to part two. Part two is, in my view, a very different matter. It seeks to forbid discrimination against any person on the grounds of their sexual orientation. If it is passed, it will become impossible to treat [00:57:30] homosexuals differently in almost any way because of their homosexuality. Mr. Speaker, the proponents of this reform say it is unjust that they should be treated differently. They say that homosexuals have a basic or a fundamental human right to act as they do. Some even say, as they did 10 years ago, that homosexual liaisons are a valid alternative lifestyle. Mr. Speaker, I am totally unable to [00:58:00] agree with claims like that. I noticed that one speaker earlier this evening said if that kind of conduct is normal, then it might be appropriate to include it or pass the amendment to the Human Rights Act. Mr. Speaker, I have already said that in my view, homosexual acts between males, which is what we are really dealing with, are unnatural and abnormal, and I cannot see that there can possibly be anything that can be described [00:58:30] as a basic or fundamental human right to act in a manner unnatural to men. So, Mr Speaker, holding the view that I do of homosexual acts is is quite impossible for me to vote for Part two of this bill. I think, sir, as well that people who find homosexual acts totally repugnant as I do are entitled, if they wish to do so to shun homosexuals. I do not think that a person letting part of a building, at least if he lived it in it himself, [00:59:00] should be obliged to accept a homosexual as a tenant. I do not think that an employer can be bound or ought to be bound to accept homosexual employees, at least where he is going to come into personal contact with them. And there might be other examples given I think, sir, that it is possible that some forms of discrimination practised by people against homosexuals are unnecessary and indefensible and might even in some instances be cruel. If this part [00:59:30] of the bill was carefully directed solely at them, I might consider supporting it. That would be quite different from we've got what we've got in front of us, which is an amendment asserting that the right to treat them differently in any way at all ought to be totally withdrawn. That is what part two of the bill seeks to do, and I am unable to agree with that proposition, and I will be voting against it now, Mr Speaker. Finally, I take the opportunity to tell the House that if this bill [01:00:00] receives its second reading, I will introduce provisions to preserve the law presently administered on this topic in the armed forces. In the case of part two, an amendment to the bill will be necessary, but it is. It may be that the present military and disciplinary law, as the homosexual acts, can be preserved without an amendment to part one. Those matters, sir, are still under some consideration and can be dealt with in the committee stages. In short, Mr Speaker, [01:00:30] I am in favour in principle of part one. But I am having difficulties in the way I indicated with the age, and I am totally opposed to Part two. I have not spoken previously on this bill. It is a bill that has been variously described as decriminalising or legalising homosexuality, [01:01:00] I believe so that there in lies the nub of the difficulty in dealing with the bill. I believe that it is important to distinguish between legality and morality. And of course, as has been suggested by one of the earlier speakers this evening. Depending on how you phrase the question, you then can anticipate the sort of answer that you would get [01:01:30] so that if a petition is set around opposing the legalising of homosexuality, then you are likely to get a majority accepting that viewpoint. However, if the same petition were to be set abroad wanting to know how many opposed the decriminalising of homosexuality, you [01:02:00] would probably get the same sort of majority supporting that petition. Sodomy used to be dealt with in the ecclesiastical courts. So was adultery. I believe that that is where it should be returned, particularly as covered in this bill in respect of adult consenting males in private [01:02:30] Mr Speaker, I appear to be the third Catholic practising Catholic in a row to speak tonight on this bill and I would be the third different viewpoint right at the outset. Might I say that I hold no brief for homosexuality? I consider it contrary to Christian moral standards. [01:03:00] But what I do have is a sympathy to the plight of the homosexual. I have had the advantage, Mr Speaker, of variously chairing and being on the committee that dealt with the submissions on this bill. Consequently, I have had the advantage of the more than 1200 submissions and materials made available [01:03:30] to that committee. The submissions, the letters both for and against and I have had some letters which horrified me and some letters which gave me great heart and great support from the outset. Mr. Speaker, I believe that medical and scientific research does not appear to have [01:04:00] advanced from the findings of the Kinsey Report in 1948 and that Mr Speaker determined that there was a continuum of sexuality of a grade of 1 to 6 later. Research in 1981 has supported and updated that, but still there is regarded that continuum of a 1 to 6 on one extreme. There is a person who is [01:04:30] outright outrightly homosexual. At the other extreme, there is a person who is outrightly heterosexual. And it has been concluded, Mr Speaker, that between five and 10% are at that homosexual end their orientation that way being established very early in life, probably before the age of five. [01:05:00] Consequently, we are dealing here with a group in our community of up to 10% who like being left-handed, cannot and are not able to avoid their sexual orientation. Given that Mr Speaker, we then have a minority that we are asked to consider in dealing with this bill. [01:05:30] I believe that it is important that that be considered as a starting point, No doubt in that middle area between the grades of 1 to 6, there are many who can be persuaded to go to one or other of the areas heterosexuality or homosexuality. I am not with them, no those people. It must be [01:06:00] for them themselves to determine and to rely upon their education family upbringing as to which choice they make. Now, Mr Speaker, I speak as one of the members of this house, particularly at risk over this total bill. I say that because according to the petition taken [01:06:30] up by those opposing the law reform, my electorate had 20,299 signatures on that petition that came out to an amazing 97. 25% of the electorate. Almost unbelievable. The Hale poll of the 22nd of June [01:07:00] recorded that 61% were for reform, 35% were opposed and 5% undecided. As a result of the publishing of the figures for Hamilton East Professor, Pool of the University of Waikato undertook over the three days 19/20 and 21st September to check with 667 on a random survey [01:07:30] in Hamilton East. Those who had signed the petition and his results, given some publicity at the time, showed that only 37% signed the petition. Now, Mr Speaker, there has been an editorial in the Dominion which commented on the large divergency between the numbers claimed for the petition and those against. But it's [01:08:00] words at the end of that editorial, I believe, are most important. What is the use of determining the question on a number crunching principle. I accept that even at 40% of those signatures being genuine, there are 8000 in my electorate who, in fact are opposed to this reform. [01:08:30] And that, of course, ought to give weight to the position that I take, Uh, and the attitude that I adopt towards this bill, However, Mr Speaker, I do not accept the Waikato Times article of yesterday headed up MP S unmoved by call. Sorry, not the honourable member, but, um, it is, uh, appropriate for me to point out with, um, with some [01:09:00] regret, because I don't want to interrupt his flow that, um it's referred to several times in the speaker's rulings that members may not quote newspaper comment on a measure before the house so the member can, uh can paraphrase, um but he must not, um he must not quote directly from the material which he has in front of him. And I don't need any help at all from the member for Rotorua. Mr Dylan. Yeah, [01:09:30] I have, in fact, been moved by the call. I have, in fact, been moved by the number of letters I have in fact, been moved by the number of those, even if it is reduced to 8000 that have in fact signed the petition. But what I do wish to say, Mr Speaker, is that I put to one side the extremists [01:10:00] from either side of this debate and extreme positions are not consistent, Mr Speaker, with the gospel or Christian tradition. What is called for here and which was mentioned in the speech by the member for when this bill was first introduced, is a great need for tolerance and understanding. And I believe that the people of Hamilton East [01:10:30] need to have that tolerance and understanding in accepting the way that I propose to consider this bill having, as I have mentioned, had an opportunity of going through all the submissions that were put forward. Now I'm supported in this Mr Speaker by an announcement from the New Zealand Inter Churchch Council on Public Affairs [01:11:00] that represents 11 Christian denominations, including the Catholic Church, and I believe that the middle ground is the area where people ought to see my vote being cast on the first issue, and the member for North Shore has very accurately described the three issues as the decriminalisation the age of consent [01:11:30] and thirdly, the human rights issues on the very first of those issues, Mr Speaker, there are those who seek to promote homosexual behaviour and lifestyles as desirable alternatives to marriage and family life. At the other extreme, there are those whose disapproval of homosexual behaviour has become distorted into a cruel rejection and disparagement of homosexual persons. Both of those. Mr Speaker, I reject. [01:12:00] What I do suggest, Mr Speaker, is that the enlightened understanding is that whilst I approve and uphold moral norms designed for the sanctity or wholeness of individuals, it is still necessary to be compassionate to any form of human weakness and that it is necessary for Christians to be ever mindful of the [01:12:30] dignity of all persons. Mr. Speaker, on the age of consent, because I believe that, uh, the arguments that have been put forward require the law to decriminalise homosexuality. The second question then, Mr Speaker, is that of the age of consent, whereby logic and principle, it would seem necessary to have a uniform age [01:13:00] for both heterosexual and homosexual relations. There is no clear evidence that boys need a further period of protection in respect of homosexual acts over and above those for girls. However, being a father, having had two girls and two boys in my own family, I am conscious and aware, as most parents would be [01:13:30] of the difference in their maturing rates. And consequently, I am conscious of those people who have expressed concern that the age of 16 for male homosexual acts was too low. And accordingly, I am not yet convinced Mr Speaker that I should not support an age of 18 [01:14:00] and age, which, I suggest would give some solace to those people who are so firmly, perhaps blindly. But they are certainly firmly opposed to this reform bill. And it is a question yet, Mr Speaker, uh, for me to determine in my own mind as to whether the age of consent, uh, would be 18 [01:14:30] or a lesser age. Finally, sir, may I refer to the third section of the bill and that is dealing with the human rights question. And here, Mr Speaker, I believe that there has been some misunderstanding of this human rights proposal. It is as a shield, not [01:15:00] a sword. It is not available for people to use to claim something what it is available to them for is to protect them from being discriminated against. And I look at our history in this country, the position of Maori, the position of women, the position of Catholics [01:15:30] in the thirties. There was a ghetto mentality adopted by Catholics. There were evidence there was evidence of their being discriminated against in respect of jobs. If there were two people going for the one job, one was a Catholic, it's quite possible that that Catholic would be discriminated against. That is not so now, and I don't believe it [01:16:00] has been so for the last 40 years. But it hurts me, Mr Speaker, to find as seems to be the case throughout the world that those who have in fact been persecuted in turn, become the first and the most vocal to persecute. And I refer as the speaker to those who now form [01:16:30] that brave little nation of Israel. 40 years ago, they were the persecuted. Now they appear on the world seen as a very feisty nation. Mr Speaker, it seems odd, but where you do have that ghetto mentality, you do have a vociferous method of challenging, [01:17:00] of getting out of that minority group. There are those in the United States who would remember the Jews who had all the spelled chutzpa but pronounced chutzpa Dylan Hamilton east. There would be those that would remember the Negroes who were referred to as being uppity niggers. [01:17:30] It was the way that those minority groups have fought back. Traditionally, consequently, I ask on behalf of those who have fought for this law reform, if they have appeared to have been going beyond the bounds that they be forgiven because it is in the nature of people, uh, to have that method of fighting back [01:18:00] when they have been a minority. Mr. Speaker, this is a conscience vote. I intend to exercise my conscience vote, as I have described, and I ask that those in the Hamilton East Electorate who may have heard me tonight to recall what I have said, the explanation of why I am voting the way I propose.

IRN: 923
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TITLE: Parliament: Committee of the Whole House - Homosexual Law Reform Bill (20 November 1985) - part 2
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VOICES: Graeme Lee; Roger Maxwell; Trevor Young; Whetu Tirikatene Sullivan; Winston Peters
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Graeme Lee; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Parliament buildings; Roger Maxwell; Trevor Young; Wellington; Whetu Tirikatene Sullivan; Winston Peters; equality; homosexual; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; human rights; law; politics
DATE: 20 November 1985
YEAR: 1985
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from parts of the Committee of the Whole House during the Homosexual Law Reform Bill, 20 November 1985 (part 2 of 2).
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Mr Roger Maxwell. Mr. Speaker, there's no doubt that this debate is or this bill has created a great deal of debate and even division in our community. But it also, I believe, played an educative role and that there is a much better understanding about the problems associated with the sexual orientation. And, uh, as a result of hearing much of the evidence, I have accepted the some of the, uh, uh, arguments put up by experts on this matter. But, uh, it's still those individuals. [00:00:30] And those submissions that have been based on that evidence supporting the bill still have not changed my point of view that this bill should not proceed any further and should not certainly not become law. There were a great deal of submissions over 1000 a lot of letters, the majority against the bill. And unfortunately, many of those submissions that were put by the bill, particularly those related to Clause five on the bill and and those clauses which make some reference to the age were not able to be heard. [00:01:00] And we had the closure in the committee. And for that reason, Mr Speaker, I think the member, well, I think it's it's It's, uh, possibly that I haven't ruled on it before, but I think it's important for the member to remember that Lily speaking that, um, we talk about the clauses of the bill here and not about the select committee consideration which is now passed. Mr. Roger Maxwell. I understood that the point of order the member [00:01:30] for Taranaki was, uh, uh, discoursing on a No, no, the the member may not raise a point of order. You haven't heard it yet, So how can you rule the order? The member will resume his seat, the member will resume his seat seat, or he will be subject to, uh, discipline by the chair in the usual way. Now, if the member has a point of order and it's not a challenge to the ruling that the chair has given, then he must come to it. Mr. Peters. [00:02:00] Mr. Chairman, the point of order is simply this. That, uh, uh, my colleague from, uh, Taranaki is in discoursing in a short title debate. Now I am I I'm seeking a point of clarity. Is he entitled to, uh, rely on the speaker's rulings and the standing orders in respect to the ambit of a debate in a short title debate or isn't he? And in that case, could you please clarify for him the subject matter that he may discourse on? I'm very happy to do that further to the point of order, Mr Freelander. So you would have noticed when the member [00:02:30] from Mount Albert, in fact, spoke on the short title. She in fact, referred to the weight of evidence that was heard by the select committee and in view of the fact that she was able to in fact cover that area without interruption, although it could well have been argued at time, she was out of order. I believe the member for Taranaki is entitled to briefly respond to that and to counter any arguments raised. Otherwise, it would in fact, be an unfair situation development. I think we need any more help, and I take the point of the member for New Plymouth that to the extent [00:03:00] that we have had some discussion, then, of course, it's, um uh, it's within the capacity of the member for Taranaki to rebut. I'd point out that the the member preceding, in fact, spoke in rebuttal on three points, and that was only one of them. But what I'm simply attempting to draw the member's attention to is that we are, in fact, bound by relevance. It is necessary for him to come reasonably quickly to the consideration that is appropriate on the short title. This is something perhaps that addresses the particular [00:03:30] question raised by the member for Tauranga. He's entitled certainly to rebut. But what he can't do is talk about the select committee stages and base his speech upon that. He is obliged, In fact, in the in the speech that he is giving under the short title to address the clauses of the bill as the major consideration that he addresses in his speech. Mr. Maxwell, Point of order. Mr. Chairman. Uh, Mr Maxwell, uh, can I have clarification? You're ruling that, uh, I was not relevant, Uh, because I think the member better come quickly to the clause. I. I [00:04:00] sought, uh, to speak to the point of order because I wanted to point out that, uh uh, I may made an omission in that I didn't refer to clause five initially, but in fact, I had just when you were raised to the point, Mr Maxwell. Mr. Speaker. Thank you, Mr Speaker, for that clarification. Uh, the fact is, Mr Mr Chairman, I find that the given the experience that we've had, uh, in, uh, as a result of these submissions and the, uh the fact that are in these clauses that the commission [00:04:30] of inquiry, which is by way of amendment for the House, is not really an adequate solution to the problem. The in fact, I am well aware that there has been a great deal of evidence brought forward, particularly relating to the where in the bill, the reference And as I suggested, Mr Chairman, there's a number of references to age in clause five and in other clauses that those submissions were, in fact, uh, supported by many people who signed the petition of 800,000 persons who was presented to [00:05:00] this house, which was questioned by many supporters of the bill. But indeed, I understand that a independent newspaper has addressed that matter. Followed up uh uh, a sample from that Those petitions and found that over 90% of them are genuine. And for that reason, I believe that the submissions that have been put forward are soundly based and particularly those that relate to the clauses. Clause five in particular, where there's a great deal of reference to the age. [00:05:30] Mr. Speaker, Mr Chairman, The wolfenden report, which has been referred to and indeed when people supporting the various and submissions that were made to various clauses of the bill, particularly Clause three and once again, the important Clause five. The Wolfman report, which was often used by supporters as a major basis of acceptance of the bill, uh, really put up the argument that the state lawmakers should not be involved, uh, in legislative, [00:06:00] uh, procedures to to measure or to put parameters around society's morals. But, uh, I suggest, Mr Chairman, that evidence would show and in the, uh, in the circumstances where we have a major health problem aid, which has been referred to before that the quote that, uh, from the wolfenden report, which has been been used often is not, uh is taken out of context. And if that committee was sitting in New Zealand today, they would have not [00:06:30] have found in the way that they did. Mr. Chairman, the important, uh, it's also important in the context of clause five because the what Clause five does er in the way it is written, uh, creates a built in defence. And indeed, if we accept the evidence which was given through the committee in which I accepted those, uh, evidence dating from McKinsey's work and evidence built on that, uh, work shows [00:07:00] that, uh, there is a great deal of, uh, different degrees of sexual orientation. And really, what this clause five does allows the those who would not normally or would not have a strong enough homosexual orientation, uh, to carry out homosexual practises would be encouraged to do so under the provisions of this bill. And I believe that that is, uh, an unfortunate aspect of the bill. It in effect legalises, [00:07:30] anal intercourse. And what we ought to be doing is discouraging those that may have that, uh, sexual orientation orientation and not encouraging them. And that, I believe, is the major fault with the bill. The the other important area of which, I believe is of concern to many people in the country is the part two and particularly, uh, clause nine, which renders it unlawful to discriminate, discriminate against the person on the grounds of a person's sexual orientation. [00:08:00] Once again, I And speaking of that clause, I accept the evidence given on Kinsey's work. But the debate, I believe, is one should be one of understanding and not, uh, rejection. Mr. Trevor Young. Uh, Mr Chairman, I want to speak briefly to the amendment moved by the member for Napier. And after listening, sir, to the contribution tonight of the member for Mount Albert, I am I feel compelled to rise to support the amendment. I want [00:08:30] to say, sir, to the house that the objection taken by the member to mount of Mount Albert to the wording in the, uh, in the, uh, uh, bill here or the amendment proposed that, uh, we are that there is a constitutional conflict in referring to the Governor General here, sir, is not correct. I want to say, sir, that this this clause has been drafted by, uh, legal representatives in the, uh who are responsible for advising us in this house. And you will know, sir, [00:09:00] that, uh, no royal commission can be granted unless there is a warrant or authorization from the Governor General. Of course, sir. Who must always act on the advice on the advice of a minister of the crown. So, sir, there is there. That was a very speech argument. I suggest that was put to the house in to oppose the, uh, referendum of the at least the amendment of the member for Napier. But in any case, sir, I want to put it to the [00:09:30] I want to put it seriously to the house that this is a, uh, an issue which, uh, justly warrants deeper consideration by people who would be appointed to a commission of inquiry or a royal commission because of their ability to research and to report on the matter. I remember, sir many referenda that have resulted from royal commissions, [00:10:00] uh, that the government has set up in the past. I am. You will know, sir, that the, uh, the total A agency, uh, arose out of a, uh, a commission followed by a referendum. We know, sir, that there have been the reversion to, uh, on liquor hours as a similar result. And a while, sir, I am one who have not always been satisfied with some of the findings of royal commissions in [00:10:30] the past because of our personal attitudes I have adopted in life. Nonetheless, sir, I have been prepared to accept, prepared to accept what has been carried out as an impartial inquiry and then a decision that is made by the people. And I would appeal, sir, to all members of the House, including the member for Mount Albert, that she would likewise do that. Because I believe that that is a compromise Which citizens [00:11:00] in this country, sir, have long accepted And, uh, my experience in that, sir, I see the member for Mount Albert shakes her head. But I think, sir, I was campaigning on the on on the, uh, referendum following the royal report. The commission's report in 1946 on the liquor liquor interests. Uh, probably before some members in this house were born. And I remember that one, sir, very vividly. And there is the reason for that, sir, The the government giving a commission on [00:11:30] that occasion was that the issues involved transcended all political party differences. It went right across the community. And I believe, sir, that because we have a free vote in this house tonight is evidence that there is no one political philosophy on this. And I believe, sir, if we have a referendum to tomorrow that this bill would not be, uh, agreed to in any part whatsoever, the bill would [00:12:00] be thrown out. But, sir, before we have a referendum, I believe it would be advisable to have that royal commission. I think, sir, that the, uh uh, the WOLFENDEN Commission that sat in Britain some years ago would probably need updating. Certainly, sir, I think that the situation is applicable to New Zealand could be very different to what we've been in Britain back there somewhere about 20 years ago. And I am [00:12:30] appealing to members of the house that this is a logical way out, Uh, of the, uh of the issue. And I think it's one which would be accepted by all citizens in this country, irrespective of their present convictions on the matter. There is no more appropriate way out than that has been suggested by the member for Napier. And I exhort the house, sir, to follow this and the sort of [00:13:00] pattern that we have adopted in the past on other important social issues, such as in gambling and in matters of the liquor trade No, I'm sorry. The, uh now the Honourable member May may, uh, because we're operating under new speaker rule. Standing orders in this respect, uh, perhaps I should clarify the position the member has taken, Uh uh, three calls. Uh, he's entitled if if he wishes to refer to Speaker's rulings on the subject, he's [00:13:30] entitled to to, as I said on on page 18, uh, in the committee of the whole house to three speeches of five minutes. And the honourable member for Invercargill has had three speeches of five minutes order. I don't need the assistance of any member. I want to clarify it for the member for Invercargill. Two of these speeches which he made were consecutive periods of five minutes. I. I was going to speak to the amendment. I [00:14:00] speak the the member. Uh uh may not have been listening when I when I made the point earlier that we are speaking to, uh, in this, uh, particular, um uh, debate, uh, to both the, uh both the short title and the amendment there, too. When I when I intervened on on a particular point of, uh, of relevance earlier on, uh, I made it made it clear to members that that is the scope of the debate. It's the clauses and the amendment. And in fact, we've had numerous [00:14:30] members speaking to both in their speeches. Mr. Speaker, I want to continue to speak in the short title and refer this time to Clause five, which is commonly referred to as the age benchmark Clause, sir. And I want to particularly speak in the context of the age 16, an age sir that has been heavily promoted by the homosexual community and who have been most vociferous [00:15:00] in their attempts and intentions to maintain and to hold that age. And so I want just to say that if this house indeed ever passed this bill with that age 16 and 10, it would indeed be a very dark day for this nation. Now, sir, we all have received an enormous amount of correspondence on this matter. But the most recent correspondence that I have received, sir, comes again from the gay task force and addresses this question [00:15:30] of 16 this age 16. And so their comments, firstly, are that sexual preference is determined early in childhood, and the age of consent of 16 is unlikely to have any impact on the development of an individual's sexual orientation now, so that's spurious in the extreme, spurious in the extreme. The Kinsey studies, which [00:16:00] I certainly don't accept uh, in total showed at least 50% of the homosexual men attributed their orientation to having basically learned homosexual behaviour. Therefore, circumstances may lead to homosexual disposition, but it takes a homosexual learning experience or exposure to convert that type of predisposition serve into a homosexual orientation, as the phrase is today. Now that's what [00:16:30] we've got to understand, and it's quite erroneous for the gay task force to offer that comment. Secondly, they say that in a New Zealand survey significantly, New Zealand survey, 70% of gay men felt a physical attraction to someone of the same sex before the age of 14. And the conclusion, therefore, is that the age of consent of 18 or more would therefore seem to be unreasonable and workable. I just I cannot even [00:17:00] see exactly the logic of that particular phrase, sir, but let me respond to that that English psychologist Elizabeth Mob, in my research in the case that she has published data to support the theory And certainly I believe it is a very common sense theory theory that a physical attraction to a person of the same sex is a natural progression in sexual maturity towards heterosexuality. And so I believe [00:17:30] that's accepted by people everywhere. What we have from the homosexual group is entirely like their whole act and behaviour unnatural and totally unreasonable. Now, in the third point, sir, the comments are made that the vast majority of homosexual adults are attracted to other adults, just as heterosexuals are. The picture [00:18:00] of gays is predatory, child molesting monsters is a myth whipped up by extremist anti gay lobbies. And, sir, I want to respond. First of all, to this question of what is meant by these people in terms of adult, they use this term, and indeed, it seems to be a very adequate escape term. But Sir adult in this country has many connotations. In fact, in terms of drinking laws, an adult is not considered to be an adult as such until he's aged 20. [00:18:30] And indeed, I just had to write that the constant abuse of abuse of this law had not been seen as sufficient to change that. Now sir. The second part of that contention that therefore, as adults the picture of gays as predatory, child molesting monsters is an extremist lobby. Sir, I want to quote here the testimony of a man who is an ex gay activist, Noel Mawson. And he has said in the last [00:19:00] seven days that that is not true. Because as an individual who has been an activist who has been a leader in the homosexual community, he, sir, has said that indeed, there is a bias to younger people. And, sir, there is testimonies not only by that man, but in fact, sir, that could be offered to the house time and time again that indeed ages below the 16 [00:19:30] are sought by homosexual community people. Uh, Mr Chairman, Mr. Peter, uh, I defer to the member for Southern for the Honourable Suan. Mr. Chairman, I want to speak to the amendment on this occasion and, uh, make the observation that, of course, it is based on a premise that this bill will [00:20:00] not be passed and it has its validity in that assumption, accepting that assumption. Then I speak to the amendment, suggested that there be a royal commission and I want to suggest that it would be salary for one of the terms of reference of that royal commission to study the [00:20:30] homosexual sociopolitical ideology and movement internationally to see if there is anything that New Zealand can learn. And I have no doubt that there would be from such a study and from such research. Mr Chairman, I want to paraphrase Santayana's famous quotation. Those who cannot remember are condemned to repeat [00:21:00] is not precise. I do not have it exactly here, but that is a reasonable paraphrase of it. For just as we are now following something like five years behind the movements, progress in America, I believe we have lessons to learn and must endeavour to learn for the the benefit of future generations, [00:21:30] and particularly for the Children of this generation. On the ninth of October, I referred to this importance and I claim it would be one of the most important aspects of that Royal commission of inquiry to consider progress and experience in other nations which have had a similar early history to that which we are in [00:22:00] right now in this country. I made the observation and I repeated that New Zealand is following the American sequence of events. And even though we are fully aware of the tragic consequences of those events, we are still slavishly following. You know, The amazing thing is that less than a fortnight ago in New York, in a drive to slow the spread of the fatal disease AIDS, [00:22:30] the New York City lawyers sought and won court approval to close a well known gay bar. But even as authorities tacked the closed sign on the door of the mine Shaft Tavern, local homosexuals said it was an empty gesture. John S Vinson, a 38 year old gay caterer, said of Mayor Edward Cox actions. It is a bad [00:23:00] joke because dozens of private sex clubs will open within a month and the police will never find them. The move against homosexual gay baths and bath houses, where customers engage in sex, is a rear guard action by the city authorities to contain the spread of aid by limiting sexual promiscuity among gay men. Less than a fortnight ago that was done in America and we are [00:23:30] following a very similar sociological phase as America, why, therefore, are we not learning from it? And if I would make an analogy on Santayana's theme where New Zealand ignores the American experience with respect to the homosexual movements, development and the gay liberation movement in particular in New [00:24:00] Zealand, we are condemned to end up with a similar epidemic. Now, having said that, I want to refer in fact to the meteoric rise of the movement in America and look at the initial impetus, an important part of an initial impetus, because it has frightening possibilities for this country. And I refer to the publication of [00:24:30] Donald Webster, Cory, the homosexual in America, which included a call for activities that would eventually result in the development of the homosexual movement. So we know it. There is there are frightening con Mr Chairman. There are consequences. Sullivan. Thank you. About the same time, through the efforts of a homosexual Marxist named Henry May, the society was founded. He proposed a code of organisation that was [00:25:00] similar to what he had found in the American Communist Party and among European Freemasons. The more radical elements within the movement began to come to the fore, and that was the first phase from which progress developed in the gay liberation movement. and we have seen the same progressive movement here. I call on the lessons of history for us to try at this stage to consider the young of this generation [00:25:30] and consider therefore, very seriously whether or not this bill should be passed. Mr. Chairman, I now come to Clause seven of this bill specifically, and the amendment that was passed in the Select Committee. The only amendment this bill redefines adult to 16 in approving consensual homosexual activity. This [00:26:00] bill legit legitimates what has been known as sodomy and may still be known as sodomy, although the act euphemistically changes the term to anal intercourse, if that is a euphemism. But in the alteration in the amendment made in the select Committee to Clause seven, it makes it a permissible and acceptable defence where a boy of 12 has been sodomised by an older boy to claim that [00:26:30] the 12 year old was thought to be 16. Now I want to take up the point where I ended when I last spoke that in countries overseas where the young have been sought and enticed, a particularly highly represented group have been the indigenous minorities, and I come back to New Zealand and that comes right back to Polynesians [00:27:00] in this country, the most highly desirable group for those who of these massive and affluent travel agents built of home on who build their businesses on the homosexual membership. I referred to one agency alone in America with 20,000 members who will come to New Zealand. If this bill is introduced, who will they particularly particularly look for among the younger people? I claim, Mr [00:27:30] Chairman, it will be the Polynesian boys. I claim that. And that is why I take a very strong stand in opposing every part of this bill, for I stand as an advocate and a defence on behalf of those young Polynesian boys. It is known if the research if if, if members of this house will consider what is happening in America have provided [00:28:00] the young prostitutes for the gay movement who which ethnic groups there are two that have now become very popular, the young black group and the young Brown group, the Hispanics, the Mexicans and I am referring to research. I also carried out on my own behalf and look, how can I not but work to see this bill fail [00:28:30] when I consider who would be most at risk. And then what follows with AIDS as we have it, we know it. Why are we not talking about it? It is a scourge in America that followed in the phase of the movement. I would like the Royal Commission to look at. It has reached a high point. Why do we ignore those figures for it is coming. It is beginning here for we are five years behind. But what will it become? [00:29:00] And who will be the most condemned group? That which is already at the base level of the socioeconomic scale in this country. And I come back to the Maori people and the Polynesians again? That is why even today, responsible Maori elders have said to me, especially of an older generation, do not let that Bill go by. Do not let that bill pass for it is our young who we see will be the subject of those [00:29:30] who will be attracted to this country. Once sodomy becomes safe, is a legitimate bylaw. And I pass their message on even communicated by the last group who spoke to me today in this building. Mr Chairman Mr Peters, speaking of the short title. So I regard it as a privilege to speak following the member for Southern Maori and I support the view she has has expressed at the house tonight, particularly [00:30:00] the view that the young Maori will be the person most abused as the consequence of the pass of this bill. And I say to anybody who has contempt for that philosophy or that idea that there is an inverted racism that the member for Southern Maori is talking about and she and I will have no part of it, though we be at different parties. Tonight's are not a matter of, uh, discussion about shallow thinking, but about the future of a significant part of our race. And for that reason, sir, [00:30:30] I support her views and I will oppose this bill. In respect of the short title. I believe that at least the amendment moved by the member for Napier should see the support of the house tonight. We are told, sir, that the wolf uh, report is a report which should gain the support of the members of this house and having read the report in 1957 it says this, Sir, we do not think that it is proper for the law to concern itself with a what [00:31:00] a man does in private unless it can be shown to be so contrary to the public good that the law ought to intervene in its function as the guardian of the public. Good. Now, sir, that was in 1957 and there was no age then. But if the Wolfenden Report committee had the benefit of what we have in front of this house today, I do not believe they would have said that. I don't believe they would have said that if they knew that as at October, [00:31:30] the 1st 85 in this country in New Zealand, we have had 12 confirmed cases of AIDS proper in New Zealand, of which seven have died. And you know and I know that the other five must die if they've got AIDS proper. Several have been in Auckland, but others already ill have returned from overseas to various parts of the country now. So that is the fact of the matter which nobody can deny. And I say that this is the wrong bill at the wrong [00:32:00] time. We serve our spending as taxpayers millions of dollars, millions of dollars in the health of this country, but specifically over $3 million to arrest the problem of AIDS. Now, sir, surely we owe the taxpayers. Surely we owe the people of this country who fund this country and answer before we so callously move in the face of such public expenditure. [00:32:30] It's not good enough to ask them to pay the price in their general taxation to pay the price of this phenomenon or this scourge which besets particularly the Western world, without first serve. We have regard in this house to measures which may assist that public expenditure. And right now tonight we have asked the taxpayer to pay millions of dollars to help the Western world solve the problem of AIDS [00:33:00] not just for ourselves but for the homosexual community. For people who have contempt for what I say tonight may well be alive next year because of public expenditure, because somebody in Qatar whose agreement, whose views they may not agree with, has paid out the money for their salvation. Now, sir, surely we in the parliament can do a little bit to assist them this bill is the wrong bill at the wrong time. And [00:33:30] those members who do not believe that have got to face the fact that in 87 we may well face five or six Mount Erebus in terms of the aid scourges in this country and they'll be on their conscience, not mine. It's the wrong bill, sir, at the wrong time. Now, sir, we have a duty to those taxpayers. But during the discussion tonight, I note from some members the particular concern to attempt [00:34:00] to identify the problem of discrimination as it affects homosexuals with firstly, Maoris and with that of Nazi Germany. Now I believe the member for southern Maori has well accounted for any attempt to link those two forms of discrimination that have homosexuals with Maori. And frankly, I tell you this, as a person with a Maori background, I'm sick and tired of people linking their discriminatory, uh, beliefs with their [00:34:30] beliefs and the history of the Maori people. I'm frankly sick and tired of it because it's a linkage of convenience, and when they're finished with that, they will move on to something else and leave the Maoris where they are still in the same situation and we will not stand by and see that happen to us now. Mr Speaker. Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker and Point of Order. Mr. Banks, the speaker. We have been [00:35:00] running a system all night, and there's plenty of precedent tonight, uh, for a member seeking a second call seeking a second call and being given it now, the member for down one of the South Island seats Sydney did not was not quick enough. Did not take it. And he's in fact, acknowledged that my colleague and friend, the member for Tara can take a second call and were much obliged to him speaking to the honourable Jeffrey Palmer. The flaw in that, uh, theory is that [00:35:30] the member for Tauranga didn't call either the chairman, the chairman. I, uh uh Well, I, I think the matter could be read resolved. The the, uh, the situation is one in which throughout the evening, members have given way to other members. But of course, if another member calls and a member on his feet is seeking a second call, I must give preference to the member seeking a call. A fresh call. It's therefore in the hands of the member for Sydney if he wishes to remain seated at this point. And if [00:36:00] the member for Tauranga wishes to seek the call and continue his speech, well, then, uh, he may proceed. Point of order. I am aware of the way in which the debate has been conducted. I am aware that members have taken a second call. And I, I don't really think it would be appropriate to, uh, to take the call if the member has a second call to make at this point. Thank you. I thank the member for and just, uh, go on and say this, that the American Negroes are well aware [00:36:30] of what happened in respect to the Vietnam debate. Because when in the middle of the civil rights movement for Negroes, the Vietnam debate began, the liberals forgot off the Negroes and moved on to something else, and the Negroes remained where they were. And I'm not going to And I don't believe the member for Southern Maori or the member Mr Chairman, a point of honour. Trevor Mallard. Mr. Chairman, this is this member's second call he is yet to give to a clause [00:37:00] by clause analysis, analysis of the bill, as you required earlier. Uh, the the member was, uh, as I understood it, giving support to the previous speaker, Um, who in raising the question of, uh, clause five. And the penalties attached there, too. And their effect on Polynesian youth, uh, gave the opportunity for the member for to, uh, to endorse their views. But I think the members had all of, uh uh, two or three minutes on. Uh, [00:37:30] sorry, sorry. I just I'll just finish it, Uh, finish the point by saying that I think, uh, the members had ample opportunity now to give us his views on that particular topic. And I'd like him to come to other clauses in the bill. Which, of course, is the the proper consideration at this at this stage of discussion on the short title. That's That's Mr Peter. That's certainly true. And I would refer the member for, uh, uh, Hamilton west to page 36 of the Speaker's rulings, and he will find appropriately we don't order. No, we don't discuss, [00:38:00] uh, med of unless the member seek to raise a further point. I think we should go on from From the point from the point where I ruled and the member picked up a speech. Mr. Peters, Chairman, uh, it is a It's a very appropriate if you look at part two soon. This is a This is a, uh, short title speech. I'm talking about those who would say that we must pass this bill, that we must support Clause two, because to not do that would to be like Nazi [00:38:30] Germany. Now that's the argument of the member for Wellington Central, and she has conveyed that argument countless times in this house tonight and around the country over recent months. And historically it's not true. It's not true, and I can recite recite to her many historical examples from historians of eminent reputation not just in this country but throughout the Western world who refute that argument. Does she not know that [00:39:00] the Brown shirt was started by Ernst Rohm and Ernst Rohm was a leading homosexual in Germany and that he had 4 million brown shirts, which made it possible for Hitler to get going in his political career? Does she not know that? Does she not know that the leading officers in the Brown church were themselves homosexual? Does she not know that? Does she not know that the Brown church created [00:39:30] where many of them in time because they were homosexual, lost their lives? But they they created the monster which devoured them? Does she not know that well, I can recite to her historical present an argument which refutes categorically the kind of argument she has perverted around this country. And that is why part two is a mockery is an absolute mockery. And if you're going to come out of the closet, bring out the truth out of the closet, [00:40:00] bring the whole truth out of the closet. Something denied from this country thus far. And does she not know what happened? In 1934 Ernst Rom decided with the brown shirts that he would demand a an official place in the German army and consequently, the brown shirts. The leading officers of the brown shirts lost them, lost. They did. They lost their life. They lost. No, no, that's the That's the great argument. [00:40:30] That's the great myth and lie. But it's not true. It's not a who I think we're now well away from, and a discussion appropriate to the short title and in the course of the evening, I've tried to draw members' attention to what is relevant at this particular stage. We're dealing with the technical details of, uh, a number of clauses at a time in order to tie up our consideration of them at one at the same time. And the the material that is appropriate [00:41:00] at this stage is, is is is the details of the drafting of particular clauses. Now, um, that's that's a point that, uh, that has the order order. That's a point that, uh, has been made several times in the course of the discussion on the short title. And I'm afraid that the member for uh is well away from that and is indulging in, uh, with what's really second reading material. So I'd ask him, uh, in the in the time that he has, uh, two minutes to come back to a [00:41:30] discussion of the technical and drafting details of the of the various clauses of the bill and the way that they interrelate. And, of course, the way that the amendment, uh, which we're also discussing, uh, impinges upon them. Point of order. Point of order. Point of order, Mr Burden. Mr Chairman, Um, the member for the member for Christchurch North was screaming out fast and other such un parliamentary remarks at you from the back of the house, and I suggest you invite him to apologise and withdraw. [00:42:00] Perhaps perhaps you might. Well, it was. Perhaps you might consider the suggestion from the member for new Plymouth. Uh, I thank the member for Penton for his, uh, for his suggestion. Uh, I'm not going to follow it because I think that, uh, at the stage where I, uh I interrupted the the member who was on his feet. It was because I was concerned about general disorder in the house. I noted that there was some, uh, some kind of a gesture going on in the back from the member for Christchurch north. But there were a [00:42:30] number of other members who were also joining in. Um, and the member for TAA was, uh was debating with them, and that was why I That was why I rose to to make the make the point that I did I. I felt that, uh, the behaviour of the house was degenerating. And the member for Christchurch north was one of those certainly, uh, taking part in that disorder, which, um which I think that the member for Tara will assist by coming back to the bill of a further point of order, Mr Wellington. Very briefly, sir. [00:43:00] I, I listened to your early ruling not the last in respect to the short title in its relation to the total bill. Serve my understanding and I would be glad of your confirmation or otherwise of a short title debate, particularly given the fact that we have five minutes or four times five was that it could be wide ranging in its nature because it must of necessity, deal with the principles of the bill. As I understand, what [00:43:30] the member for Tauranga was doing was relating the principles of legalised homosexuality to the storm troopers in the Republic and Germany about, um, 40 to 50 years ago. So if we're going to consider the principles of a measure of this type, surely we must do so in the context. I think I have help of the total community, and I think I have the member's point. Yes, I think the [00:44:00] the point of No, no, I haven't ruled on the point yet, but before you No, I don't think there is any to do so because the point has been raised that we should be entitled to discuss in this particular stage of the discussion on a bill the principle, the general principles of the bill, given that it is a wide discussion and this is an important distinction to be made. If I can refer members to page 41 of the speaker's rulings, it says there and I think clarifies the issue raised by the member for Papakura. The second reading debate is concerned with the principles [00:44:30] of the bill. The committee stage with the details of the bill. Now the member has raised the point. How does that relate to the fact that the short title debate is a wide was not addressing any clause of the bill? And that was the difficulty that I had with it and provided he is pro provide is ranging across clauses. Then he is relevant. Can I finally say that if members are not prepared to be relevant, then I must consider that they are being tedious and repetitious? I [00:45:00] have no other choice open to me, Mr Peters. Uh, well, of course. You know I Mr Speaker, Mr. Chairman, I was speaking to the amendment. Very simple, covered by standing orders. The speaker's ruling. And it doesn't relate to what you've just ruled on. I'm speaking to the amendment. I'm telling you, sir, and the house I'm telling you, sir in the house why it's appropriate that we should have a royal commission as moved for the member of Napier. Now, am I entitled to speak on that matter? I believe I am. And I'm saying, sir, the country is entitled to know the truth and to have [00:45:30] exposed the specious arguments proposed by the member for Central. And it won't do because the truth, sir, historically that she sought to disguise around the country is not what the what? The situation is simply, Sir, Hitler owed the foundations in in large part to that maniacal regime to a homosexual order. That's the truth of the matter. And listen, I've got the books. There's Shearer here. No way disputes his authenticity. So I've got another second [00:46:00] book here. The Nazi Extermination of Homosexuals by Frank Rector. No way. Dispute disputes whether he's a leading authority. I've got a said by John Toland. Nobody refutes that. And she should read it before she tries to put that sort of argument around the country. The fact of the matter is that the so-called linkage with the Jewish extermination is not true. This is not true. And it won't wash and it won't wash. And as specious and as horrible as Hitler was, there is no way that they're going [00:46:30] to propound and advance their argument by saying that they also suffered from that monster because, uh, in large part, they created a doctor. Chairman, I move with you to report progress and ask Lee for it again. The question is that the motion be agreed to those in favour. Say I those were the It's just part of it. [00:47:00] Thank you. You need is basically a private business order. Now I will hear 11 member on a point of order. Uh, that member will be, uh I be honourable. I believe here in view of the new arrangements for for Wednesday for standing orders, the house, before it is asked to to vote on this matter, should know the implications for the balance of the evening. [00:47:30] I believe so that the house is entitled to an explanation. The the member puts me in a difficult because the the the motion that that is proposed must be put to the house without debate now on more than one occasion by buyers that were, uh, a agreement or concession on the part of the, uh of of the government to allowing some form of the explanation. But I see nobody, nobody on the government side who is willing to do that. The question, therefore, is that I do report progress. [00:48:00] Well, now the now we've had this difficulty before, too. And I hope that we're not going to, in fact, extend the point. And in so doing, enter upon a debate. Mr. Chairman, I just I just wish you to address the fact that I haven't been in the house all evening. Is this the first closure motion that has been put on? No, no, no. The the the member is member is is quite quite a quite, uh, uh at at variance with the fact the motion is that I do report progress. This is not [00:48:30] a closure motion. The question is that I do report progress and seek leave again. Those in favour will say I Those in the country opinion will say no. The eyes have it. Noes. Have it the vision called for. Ring the bells. The eyes will go to the right. The nose will go to the left. Tell us for the eyes. Are Dr Cullen and Trevor Mallard tell us for the nose of Mr [00:49:00] McKinnon and Roger McLay. Trevor. But again, the eyes are 43. The nose are 33. I will report progress. Unlock the doors. Unlock the doors. Oh, the house is resumed. Mr. Speaker, for the Committee on the Homosexual Law Reform Bill has directed me to report progress and has also directed me to move to leave to sit again. The chairman of the committee's report that the Committee on the Homosexual Law Reform Bill has directed [00:49:30] him to report progress and has also directed him to move for leave to sit again. The question is that the report be agreed to. Those who are of that opinion will say I the contrary opinion will say no. The eyes have it. Mr. Speaker, that this bill is set down for further consideration in committee next sitting day. Mr. Speaker, The honourable Jeff.

IRN: 922
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TITLE: Parliament: Committee of the Whole House - Homosexual Law Reform Bill (20 November 1985) - part 1
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VOICES: Geoff Braybrooke; Graeme Lee; Helen Clark; John Banks; Norman Jones; Peter Tapsell; Philip Woollaston; Richard Prebble; Venn Young; Whetu Tirikatene Sullivan
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: Don McKinnon; Fran Wilde; Geoff Braybrooke; Geoffrey Palmer; George Gair; Graeme Lee; Helen Clark; John Banks; Norman Jones; Peter Tapsell; Philip Woollaston; Richard Prebble; Venn Young; Whetu Tirikatene Sullivan; Winston Peters
DATE: 20 November 1985
YEAR: 1985
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Audio from parts of the Committee of the Whole House during the Homosexual Law Reform Bill, 20 November 1985 (part 1 of 2).
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Mr Speaker, I move. That would be an instruction to the committee of the whole house that in its consideration of homosexual law reform Bill, it may consider the bill part by part. Yes, Uh, the question is that in the instructions to the committee of the whole house, uh, that the instruction be that the bill be considered, uh, part by part. Fran. [00:00:30] Mr. Speaker, I just want to tell the house that the member for and I have consulted on this and we have reached an agreement that this would be a rational way of debating the committee stages of this bill. Right? I'll restate the state. The question. The question is that in the instruction to the committee of the whole, uh, the instruction [00:01:00] be that the bill be considered part by part. Those who are of that opinion will say I, um Mr. McKinnon, this is, um this is a debatable motion, is it not, Mr Speaker, Whilst I'm aware that there has been an arrangement between the junior government whip who stands at one extreme of this not at one extreme one side of this particular issue and the member on the other side of the issue. There are [00:01:30] quite a number of members in this chamber now who are looking quite bewildered. It's just how many parts are in this bill, and I really think it's necessary. I'm not suggesting for one minute that I'm trying to prolong this thing. I made a decision. I made a decision some time ago. I wouldn't even speak on this bill. I have to speak on this bill, but I feel as a as a member in this chamber with some responsibility on the side of the opposition. I think members should in the [00:02:00] next couple of minutes have a chance to look at the bill as they have to do as as individuals, because this is not a party matter. It is a conscience matter, and every member may have a different position on this particular bill as to whether it should be debated part by part. And given the given the few minutes that's required to do just that, I think we'd be in a better position to, uh, vote on it now, Mr Speaker, I'm informed by someone said three parts. [00:02:30] I'm informed now that there are that the bill is divided between part one is the short title. Part two are the balance of those clauses. And part three is the human rights, the short title in part one. So it's the intention of those moving at the order order, right? I do realise that there is quite some in, uh, the, uh, opposition [00:03:00] senior opposition which contention here so that although I must not involve myself in the debate, it is my duty to look after the interests of all the members. And I would suggest that it would serve the interests of all members if one or two people got up and drew attention to what was involved in each of the parts and clauses and gave some suggestion to the house as [00:03:30] how they thought this debate should be conducted. Now, I am not doing this in the hope of prolonging. In fact, I'm doing in the hope of avoiding a prolonged debate about a procedural matter. But I think that the House does not want need to know exactly what is involved in this and why this procedure is seem to be advantageous by those concerns. In conclusion, it seems to me that those that promoted this idea may [00:04:00] give consideration to allowing the debate to begin on the short title and having signalled in advance, they wish to debate subsequent parts part by part. It could then be moved after the short title that the balance be moved, handled part by part. But that will not affect the short title debate. If in fact that's an honour as a stand alone debate, Mr Speaker, the honourable Parliament. Mr. Speaker, this is not a matter in which I have taken any direct [00:04:30] interest, but I think I should say something about the procedure that the House might now wish to adopt. If the committee is going to consider this bill part by part, it is necessary for the house as a whole to give that instruction to the committee before the House goes in the committee. Therefore, it is not practical to adopt the course that the senior opposition whip has suggested it has to be done by the House as an instruction [00:05:00] to the committee. That's the first point. The second point is that the structure of the bill does seem to lend itself to the sort of motion that is being suggested. It does that for this reason that the debate on the short title on which each member will be entitled, I think if there are no other members expecting the call to a total of 45 minute calls, each member of this house 45 [00:05:30] minute calls on Clause one, which which ought to give any member of this house ample opportunity to say a great deal. I would think that that deals with the nuts and bolts of the bill. But is the most general debate that the committee of the whole will have The second, the second part of the bill deals with part with the Crimes Act and all of part one, as far as I can see, deals with amendments to the Crimes Act and the criminality, uh, with which [00:06:00] the substance of this debate has always been concerned. Now, if that part is dealt with again, each member will be entitled to 45 minute calls on that part, and all amendments which will would members would want to move, will be able to be moved and be able to be considered. There's no difficulty with any of that. I don't think the secrets of the amendments will be changed [00:06:30] at all because what will happen is that the committee will vote on the amendments at the at the end and they'll vote on them. I would think in the order that they amend the clauses of the park. And if that is the case, uh, there should be no logical difficulty involved in it at all. That and when the when the house has dealt with that part of it, it would then move to the part two of the bill itself, which is the amendments to the Human Rights Commissioner, and and [00:07:00] and that is a is two clauses of the bill and a discrete matter quite separate from the criminal provisions which are dealt with in part two. Now we are then left with the schedule, and I think probably that the schedule would have to be dealt with separately. Yes, the honourable Van Young, Mr Speaker. Before I could support or reject this, I would need to have a clearer [00:07:30] reason put before me and before the house why we should restrict the discussion on clauses of the bill. Because, quite frankly, when measures government measures are moved to be taken part by part, we know quite well it does facilitate the passage of such measures through the house. Now, in this case, it is not a bill of a large number [00:08:00] of clauses, whereas in other times when the House is considered a resolution such as this, the bills have been large bills and the House has needed to make some progress on that. The intention of the government has been known. But in this case, Mr Speaker, not only do we have a smaller bill, and as the deputy prime minister said one that has, we know two separate parts, but it does in fact divide [00:08:30] it into two separate bills. Finally, because there two acts that are being amended. If both parts are part in those circumstances and in the knowledge that there is widespread interest in the manner in which parliament deals with this legislation, uh, I believe that we may be unnecessarily pushing Parliament. Uh, in the consideration of the [00:09:00] committee stages of this piece of legislation, I'd like to point out that, uh, in clause five in particular, there are a number of amendments and members will need to have very clear in their minds during the committee stages. just which ones they would propose to support and which ones they would propose to reject. There's a proposal for a new clause by eight. All those, I think, Mr Speaker, deserve the separate consideration of [00:09:30] this house. And I do recall that perhaps the most difficult issues that members have to deal with when it comes to a number of amendments on a private Members bill, which is a conscience issue are different stances that individuals or groups may take. Now I haven't had, although I know the house wants to with the we do not want to have the committee stages with us for another three weeks, we want to make decisions. It seems to me that there is [00:10:00] some danger of short circuiting the rights of members to speak to individual clauses. If we follow the suggested court, the Honourable George Gear. Mr. Speaker, I have considered myself how best we might proceed with this stage of this Bill and I have had words with one or two people in this regard. It seems to me that the proposal before us does make [00:10:30] eminent good sense, but I do believe to win the support of the House the proposal needs to explain how the sequence of amendments would come before the House. Now, I have in mind particularly Mr Speaker, the question of changes in the question of age. Unless we adopt a, uh, a process of elimination on the matter of age, we could get ourselves into all sorts of trouble. May I give you an example? [00:11:00] There is a proposal in the bill for an age of 16. I myself with, uh, supplementary order. Paper number seven here have proposed 18. There is a proposal at 20 a different proposal yet again that comes in at 58 at 20. Now, sir, as 16 is in the bill, clearly the amendments will have to be put before the substantive clause in the bill. It seems to me [00:11:30] that we should, by a process of elimination work from a higher age by amendment down to the substantive proposal in the bill. And in this way we will learn the mood of the house. If but in terms of the sequence in which the the SOPS were lodged, we could in fact I, I No. I realise that I realise that, But the concern of members I think, some of whom perhaps [00:12:00] have not considered this proposal before this debate. Right now, the concern of members is partly about the right to speak. But it's partly about how they will have the right to make their choice when the amendments come forward. Now, if we can be clear, if we can be clear that this a and agree amongst ourselves that the order, the order of choice, is made available to [00:12:30] members according to a descending order of age then and these would all be taken in series on the completion of the debate at the end of part two and the consequential amendments through the clauses of part two would then follow. I think, sir, we may well have the best solution that we can in this circumstance. Uh, yes. Uh, Mr Peters, the Speaker, I, as one member of the [00:13:00] parliament, would like to make a plea for normalcy and convention these matters I believe that the clauses should be debated clause by clause, for example, I would like to have a short title debate. I would like to see that we have a debate in respect to indecency with a boy between 12 and six years of age. I believe we should have a debate on decent, decent assault on boy by a man, I believe so. We should have a debate on keeping place of resort for homosexual acts, and this is also [00:13:30] in part one. Now I understand my colleague's desire for, uh, a part by part debate. But really, it's in the hands of the proponents of this bill. If some of the clauses are out of place, that is that they should be rearranged for the convenience of the debate. Let them so propose a rearrangement that's in the member for Wellington, Central hands and the government has. But it's not for them, sir, [00:14:00] to ask us to abandon the conventions of the South, the conventions that are attached to nearly every bill that passed through it purely because they may subscribe to a certain approach in respect of this bill. Now, sir, in respect of part two, I would like to know whether we're going to have a debate on the Human Rights Commission Act. Discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation on being unlawful. That's Clause nine and the schedule. Now those are separate matters, but at the end of the day, I come back to this [00:14:30] point if there are clause clauses which, because of their placement in this bill, create difficulty for a logical chronological debate that it's for the mover from the It's for the member from A from to redesign now, rather than to ask members of the house to abandon and to ask you, sir, to abandon the convention the tradition of discussing bills in this house. Uh, [00:15:00] Mr Lee, I'm opposed this bill entirely. But my point in moving that motion was to recognise the difficulties the House would otherwise get into and and pro. Regrettably, the confusion that may follow in terms of not realising that the substantial amendments applied to Clause five but in the chronology of the chair haven't addressed causes one at a time. Clauses [00:15:30] three and four, sir. Which, uh, perhaps hasn't been quite clearly indicated, referred to the age below 16 where fences can occur and which, as far as I know, don't draw any amendments, perhaps as one small technical amendment, but otherwise they're not drawing any amendments Now, sir, with the understanding of that point, Clause five therefore will be the important benchmark clause now, sir. It was only my [00:16:00] attempt to facilitate the chair by suggesting that those areas could be taken together now, sir, it could be addressed in other ways. My colleague from Tauranga says the cause may be rearranged. So be it. If they took the clauses 34 and five as a decision by the chair, that would also make it possible. Certainly the point raised by the member for North Shore in terms of addressing the amendments with the age benchmarks in decreasing [00:16:30] order or decreasing age would be automatic, sir, would be automatic. So that point set aside. So So that's the reason. And at the present time, the motion simply means that clauses up to clause seven in fact is addressed within the motion. It would not preclude any discussion. In fact, in my understanding, it would allow the best result. And I repeat, I am against the whole bill. The question is, [00:17:00] uh that in the instruction to the committee that the instruction of the whole of that the instruction be that the bill may be dealt that the bill be dealt with in parts. Those who are of that opinion will say I of the country. Opinion will say no. But the eyes have it. Is division called for? Yes. [00:17:30] Uh, ring the bells. The eyes will go to the right. The nose will go to the left. The tell us for the eyes are Fran Wilde and Lee and the Tell us for the nose. Mr. Peters and Mr Bells are ringing in parliament building, summoning all members to the chamber to vote in [00:18:00] a division that the motion be agreed to. Those who are the eyes are 55. The nose are 21. The motion will be agreed to unlock the doors, unlock the doors. I declare the house in committee on the homosexual law reform bill. Uh, the in [00:18:30] the conduct of affairs, the committee will deal with the bill by pass that or the House and Committee on the Homosexual Law Reform bill. The question is that Clause one the short title stand part of the bill. A point of order, Mr. Banks. Mr. Chairman, Uh, I understand pursuant to the standing orders that a member can, uh, take a call [00:19:00] four times. 33 times. Um and, uh, is it your intention to take a call a subsequent call from a member once first time callers have taken their option as it were, or can they take them all at once? Or how do you propose to do this? Now, the, uh, the situation is, uh, set out in the standing orders on page 118 on the short title of a bill or any amendment there to each member is entitled to three speeches of five minutes. That doesn't mean 53 [00:19:30] consecutive speeches, Uh, five minutes. If I understand the member's question correctly, uh, that is what he is asking Now, I think that, uh, the member would be better for better. Not to better. The member would be better not to seek a ruling on this question because I think that the, uh, the short title stages, uh, will be no different from any other. Uh, and the way in which, uh, it will be treated will, I think, evolve as the committee proceeds. Say again, I think that it will be clear to the member how [00:20:00] speaking rights will be to to be determined as the as the bill proceeds. We don't have speaking lists. We don't have a situation where we normally do where two sides of the house are debating the issue. Uh, so I will be relying on members to make it very clear that they are seeking the call from me. And, uh, I will determine the call on the basis, uh, previously set out, uh, in the in the in the matter That that, uh uh that the that the bill addresses in the handling of the bill [00:20:30] in previous stages. That's, uh I think AAA precedent has been set in that regard. So the question then, is that the short title Dan Piper Bray Brook. Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, there is no doubt at all that this bill has divided New Zealand. It has divided this nation, possibly, uh, like no other bill. It has even divided our churches, our communities and in many cases, our own families. It is a bill which [00:21:00] has brought out the best in some people and regretfully the worst in others. But throughout our community, it has brought resentment, anger and, in many, many cases, outright disgust. Mr. Speaker, I have thought long and hard about this Bill. I My conduct has not been perfect and I do not pretend that it has ever been. But I have come seriously to the conclusion that nobody Mr Chairman, had [00:21:30] a mandate to introduce this bill just out of the blue, on to the citizens of this country. It certainly was never discussed as a major issue at the last election, no political party, or, in my view, no particular member had a mandate for it. And so, Mr Speaker, I believe that what is required is a Royal commission of inquiry to investigate all aspects of this question of homosexuality so that we may all [00:22:00] be the better for it. I do not know all aspects of it. I doubt whether any member does. But I am confident that in this country we could set up a royal commission of inquiry. We have set up many others on many different subjects. Indeed, and probably the last important one on a moral issue was the Royal Commission of Inquiry, which reported on the contraception, sterilisation and abortion debate. I therefore formally move Mr Chairman the supplementary the [00:22:30] amendment in my name on the supplementary order paper that in clause One to admit sub Clause two and all the words in line six and seven on page two and substitute the following sub clauses. This act shall come into force on a date to be appointed by the Governor General By order in Council three, no order shall be made under subsection two of this section unless and until the Governor general is satisfied that a a royal commission has investigated [00:23:00] and reported on all aspects of homosexuality in New Zealand. That is part one. And I believe that if members wish to just vote on that particular sub clause, then I would be happy to agree to that part. B of my amendment reads that a national referendum of persons eligible to vote in the general election of members for the House of Representatives majority of persons who voted were in favour of each of the following propositions [00:23:30] one. That homosexual conduct between consenting adults in private should not be a criminal offence. Yes or No. Two. That discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation should or should not be made unlawful under the Human Rights Commission Act 1977. Mr Speaker, I believe that that is a fair and honourable way of settling this debate. If we do not either a set up a royal commission of inquiry for the benefit of us all. Then the issue will drag [00:24:00] on. I am strongly in favour of referendum although I know that I'm probably in a minority here. But if we do not have a referendum on this question, then it will not go away. It is no good voting tonight or next week in the sincere hope that having voted on it, everybody is going to sit back and accept it. There will be repeal bills brought into this house. It will be an election issue. It is not a subject for which we, in my view, are fit and proper persons to judge upon this grave moral [00:24:30] issue. But it is an issue which New Zealand should decide upon and a referendum will settle it one way or the other. Because it is the people of New Zealand who have to accept the laws which we sometimes force upon them. This law should not be forced upon any citizen. Mr. Speaker, The Royal Commission of Inquiry should in my view, have the widest terms of reference, including travelling overseas, to view what has happened in other countries that have liberalised [00:25:00] this law. They should also look into the question and that terrible affliction of AIDS. And I have no doubt that we will hear more about that during this debate. But it is urgently needed. Even in the United Kingdom, they did not dream of amending the law before they had what was then known as the Wolfenden report. I very much doubt if the Wolfenden report was to sit now, it would come back with a recommendation that it did in the United Kingdom because one of the clauses that he said was that it would only agree to liberalisation of the [00:25:30] law, provided that nobody in society suffered. And now, of course, that hideous infliction of AIDS has changed all day. Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt about it. A royal commission of inquiry made up of the best medical legal even people from other all walks of life should be admitted to it. Uh, the question was that the short title stand part Since when Mr Bray Brook has moved in the terms set out in supplementary order paper number 71. [00:26:00] The question then is that the amendment be agreed to you, Mr Speaker the honourable Ben Young. Mr. Chairman, I think most of us would feel if there that there was a solution in the amendment put forward by the member for Napier, it would absolve ourselves from a responsibility that we we find quite onerous dealing with a bill [00:26:30] such as this. Unfortunately, I do not believe that the course set out by the member for nature is a solution more than a referendum to make up our minds as individual members. How we should vote on the difficult clauses of this bill in fact, uh, means that we are doing our job or fulfilling our responsibility. [00:27:00] As members of Parliament, we owe our constituents our attention. We owe them the responsibility to place their arguments and submissions before the government of the day and to present them in Parliament. We also owe our constituents our judgement. My judgement on this bill, Mr Mr Chairman tells me that I should support [00:27:30] the amendment that is to be moved later by my colleague, the member. For Pendleton. It means that, uh, the law then would be changed if Parliament accepted that amendment to decriminalise homosexual acts between consenting male adults in private. Let me emphasise the word adults because the House will no doubt have [00:28:00] some difficulty when considering the several ages of consent that are offered first of all, in the bill and secondly, and thirdly, by way of an amendment. Under our statute, a person is an adult when he or she reaches the age of 20 not 18, and certainly not 16 for [00:28:30] these reasons and the reasons that such a an age of consent has been found acceptable and passed in the parliaments of the countries such as Canada is sufficient evidence to me that that is a step that I believe that this House should be able to take. I might say that if in the deliberation room during the committee stages, the House decides [00:29:00] that there is to be some younger age of consent for homosexual acts between consenting people, then I will oppose the part of the bill that is to be considered first. In any case, I am going to oppose part two of the bill. So the my position, Mr Speaker, is simply this, that I support the intentions of my colleague, the member for Henderson. [00:29:30] I will vote in the on the clauses of the bill in a manner in which in which his proposal could be accepted by the House. That is to reject, uh, clauses 34 and five and approve the inclusion of a new five A that would result in the position I've just outlined. I cannot accept part two of the bill when it is considered [00:30:00] Mr Gramley, Mr. Speaker, Um, the bill before the house is is a thoroughly bad, repugnant bill. In fact, it's, in my opinion, the most obnoxious Bill ever brought before this house, certainly in my time as a parliamentarian. So the house should realise again that in fact, it is a bill that's been uniquely prepared for this time, [00:30:30] and it has in fact, the focus of the whole of the homosexual world upon it. And it should be indeed, in itself, a point of concern to this house that a group of people have chosen this time to introduce this particular bill, a bill which is the most progressive of its type ever introduced to any place in the world. And so I've chosen this time to introduce [00:31:00] such a type of legislation Now, well, let me correct that. My colleague says. Not progressive. It's progressive in a technical term. But what? The house, I'm sure, understands it's progressive in the sense that it reaches further than any legislation of this type. And therefore, sir, for that one alone, I believe it's extremely bad. In fact, the bill, therefore, is not amendable. The bill cannot be amended. It can only in fact, [00:31:30] I repeat, be thrown out. Eliminating Part two, the human rights section, sir, or lifting the age benchmark will do nothing to eliminate the threat the bill poses to public health, to the family life or to the risks to the individual. Now, sir, we have been through in addressing this bill a second reading which probably has become the longest second reading in the history of this parliament. So [00:32:00] I can put the house that surely the depth, the sensitivity, the division of this bill and the fact we have gone this far surely should speak volumes just from that point of the second reading address alone. A point of order, Trevor Mallard. Pretty important for the consideration in this committee that we get the rules pretty clear at the beginning. I ask you therefore, to consider Speaker's ruling uh, 36 5 [00:32:30] and six. And this speech as to whether it is one of general principle or addressing the clauses of the bill, Yes, I think that the point is well taken, and it is, as the member for Hamilton West has suggested it important that we get the ground rules clear. They're no different, of course, from the ground rules that apply at any other, uh, committee stage during the discussion on the short title. But, uh, we have perhaps concentrated, um, a little more upon the, uh, importance of [00:33:00] the speaker's rulings as they apply. Uh, in this in this particular case, uh, I think that I can best, um, set it out for the for the committee in this way that I'm looking for members to address themselves as speaker's rulings require them to do, uh, in the short title debate to the clauses. Uh, that is to say, and I think that, uh, in listening to the member for that, he was indeed doing that, uh, order, Uh, but [00:33:30] I want members, uh, in the in the short title debate to go through and consider or ask the committee to consider their position um, in relation to the various clauses and I take for my authority in this respect, uh, speaker's rulings on page 36 number six. The purpose is not to have a discussion of the broad principles but to consider when clause one is being considered the drafting or the technical details of clause four, clause 44 or any other clause. I believe that members have discharged their responsibility in this, uh, in this respect, provided [00:34:00] they are ranging across the clauses in the bill and speaking to specific clauses in the bill. And I'll be listening very carefully to ensure, uh and I think it's an important point that the member of Hamilton West has raised that we don't have a second reading debate that we don't start to debate the the, uh uh, principles of Bill. Rather, we talk about the way in which the clauses, uh, should be applied and if necessary, um, when we get to them, uh, amended. I think so far, at least, the debate has been pretty relevant. [00:34:30] Thank you, Mr Chairman, to seek your clarification. Your ruling. Because I thought by addressing the bill and the third and then the short title that I could reasonably draw the implications of those clauses and the results of those clauses becoming law. And I thought my comments then were relevant for that reason. Well, I hope that the member for hasn't taken any of this because what I've done is to rule that what he has so far told, the committee [00:35:00] is relevant within the confines of the standing orders that apply. The member is debating in an appropriate way, Mr Lee. Thank you. Um, thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I, uh, I would wish just to address right now the amendment offered by the member for Napier in calling for a Royal Commission inquiry so I could support that I could support that because I believe at this point in time such an inquiry could [00:35:30] be relevant. I believe it would have this effect. It would reveal that many parliamentarians in this House have failed to understand the full facts. And such an inquiry could in fact show to the nation that, in fact, sir homosexual the the the bill before the house is not a suitable bill at all. Now, sir, there is a precedent for this type of inquiry called in Britain. The wolf report. That report, however, of interest came down [00:36:00] supporting decriminalisation. But, sir, I believe that the significant difference in time right now is that today we have before this nation and certainly before the world the greatest killer disease threat ever known to mankind. Now, sir, that's why I am confident that such an inquiry by proper people would recognise that there's no way that in fact, this bill could possibly or should [00:36:30] be ever become law when that disease of age is about to strike this country. And indeed, we have a period of grace right now in which we have been able to address the implications and know something of the facts and the enormity of that disease, sir. So therefore, I believe that particular me could be relevant. But, sir, it seems to me that it's a it's a grass. It's a gross move from sanity, if not common sense, sir, for this house. Yet even now to [00:37:00] be at this stage, addressing this bill when there is, in fact such an absolutely overt threat to this nation through the issue of AIDS. No, sir. I also want to mention the House that there has been the clearest possible expression of the voice of New Zealand against this bill. And the bill, sir, has been presented to the public in New Zealand. The clauses contained there in has clearly [00:37:30] indicated that this bill is not wanted or accepted by the time the honourable Mr Mr Chairman, uh, not had an opportunity to speak yet to this, uh, bill. And if I, uh, I believe that I have a duty to explain to the house the reasons for my voting on on the bill I was assure the member that I will explain that to him. Mr. Speaker, the, uh, in the various elections that I've stood [00:38:00] in Auckland Central, this question has always been asked of me, and I have made it quite clear that I do not support. I do not support the sending of people to jail for sexual acts committed between consenting adults in private. I don't believe, having listened to most members of the House, that they actually support that action either. The action of sending somebody to jail [00:38:30] for homosexual acts is, of course, very rarely done. But that is no reason for not amending the law Indeed, if we fail to amend that sections of the law, we will be sending a very clear signal to the courts that this Parliament, in effect, supports sending people to jail, uh, for homosexual acts. I don't believe that. That's what parliament thinks. I believe that it's very bad, uh, legal practise [00:39:00] for the house to leave on the statute books laws that we do not wish to be enforced. That brings the law into, uh, disrepute. And that is that is bad on a general law and order, uh, rule of law philosophy. And as such, I have always opposed such laws being on the statute book. And in this case, uh, I therefore support the general thrust of the bill, [00:39:30] and two other questions then have to be basically dealt with. And the first is the question of the age of consent. The age of consent. Of course, for women, there's no age for men engaged in, uh, heterosexual activity is 16. And that raises an interesting question. Should the age be 16 for homosexual acts, there have been a number of different arguments put up in this house. But I put it around this way. Why [00:40:00] did parliament decide on 16? Uh, as an age for women? Why not higher? Why not lower how many members of Parliament actually support young girls of 16 engaging in sexual activity? I most certainly do not, but I don't support lifting the age. The reason I don't support lifting the age is because there is a limit to the protection that the law can grant to people. And the reality is that [00:40:30] the Parliament cannot protect people over the age of women over the age of 16 who engage in sexual activity. I frankly think that the same thing applies with homosexual activity, and even though I am, there's a number of different ages put forward at 18 and 20. I frankly don't support people engaging in homosexual activity at any age, and it seems to me that the right age it's therefore we should determine [00:41:00] that question on sound lawmaking principles and on sound lawmaking principles. The age of 16 is probably the limit of the protection that the court can grant that that the parliament can grant. We then have the question and part two as to whether we should move past decriminalisation to a question of whether we should extend the Human Rights Commission to those who are, uh, engaging [00:41:30] in homosexual activity. I represent the Auckland Central electorate, which I am informed. I don't know how people can possibly make such judgments Is the, uh, centre of capital of homosexuality in New Zealand. I'm not sure that that's in fact, true, but it is true that Auckland Central is a very tolerant electorate and minorities who are perhaps persecuted in other parts of the country uh, tend to go to Auckland Central. That's one of the reasons why I, uh, I personally [00:42:00] love it. And like like, uh, representing that electorate. I have to inform the house, however, that I get people complaining to me about various things I have never had in the 10 years I've been a member of Parliament. Never had a case of somebody telling me that they were unable to get accommodation because they are homosexual. Uh, because the reality is, of course, that landlords actually like homosexuals, they don't have Children. [00:42:30] Uh, and the Children are what our people are discriminated against. So I've had many cases of people coming to see me because Chairman do you need to do five minutes debate a point of order, Mr Bank. Mr. Chairman, I think this would be an opportune time to canvass this matter with you. That you didn't wish to canvass at the start when I raised a point of order regarding the number of speeches. And I think that the member for Auckland Central [00:43:00] has precipitated this by endeavouring to seek a further call. Now, personally, I don't mind if the member for Auckland Central takes a second call because he obviously is only halfway through what he wants to say. And the point I make in respect of this it seemed logical that he could do that in order to, uh, finish off the tenor of what he wanted to tell the house. Now, if he has to wait until next Wednesday night or the following Wednesday night before he can finish off what he's got to say, it makes nonsense of the whole thing. Now, I don't want to put you in a position [00:43:30] where you might make a ruling that you don't wish to, but I just say simply that this is exactly the case that I was talking about before, and the difficulty that we're going to get into speaking to the point of order. The honourable Mr. I appreciate the remarks and for but But it's up to the house. I've indicated that I want to call someone else, Calls against me. Of course they will. I will not be able to complete my remarks. Yeah, the position is that, um, the member may, of course, uh, continue a speech if there is no other member seeking a call. [00:44:00] Um, if if another member does, however, seek a call, then that member will receive preference from the chair. The the Honourable Richard pre you. I thank I thank the house. I I've never known a case of a homosexual being refused accommodation on those grounds. I'm not saying that it's never occurred, but it's never come. It has never come to me. I have had many cases of married couples being unable to get accommodation clearly because they have Children. I have also [00:44:30] a very good reason why that person, uh, was sacked and I I had a case recently of a union which was accused by one of their staff of having uh sacked the person because she was a lesbian and the union secretary said. Me Well, that's extraordinary because I knew she was a lesbian before I even hired her. Of course, I didn't sack her for that reason and then produced that person's employment record, which was quite clear. The reason why I have doubts about Part two, however, go further than that. I very much [00:45:00] support the Human Rights Commission. I don't believe that women in this country have yet got equality. The Human Rights Commission most certainly hasn't completed its task. I don't believe that we have racial equality in this country, and those are the Those are two priorities, and the reason I make them priorities is you can't change your sex, you're born with it. You can't change your race. We can have an argument about whether people are born homosexuals [00:45:30] or not. There is some doubt about it, but there's absolutely no doubt that people cannot change their race. And for that reason, I believe parliament has extended protection and the area of race and the area of of what sex you are. I don't believe that we can extend it to the area of sexual preference, and in addition to that it will create a very great difficulty. What it will mean is that if somebody is a homosexual and they are fired, they will [00:46:00] always be able to raise this particular claim against their employer. And how do you answer an accusation of that sort? I think it is extremely. It's extremely difficult. I think we'll have great problems with it, but there's another reason we'll have problems with it. It's clear from this house that there are respectable members of the community who have very strong exceptions to homosexuality, and what we will have is those people will still go on carrying out their beliefs [00:46:30] and we will be persecuting them because of their beliefs. And can I advise the house that martyrdom is something that Christians believe in? It is never a very good idea to parliament to pass a law that could make Christians into martyrs. And I am the Caesars discovered That wasn't a good idea, and it's still not a good idea today. I say on sound lawmaking grounds. I do not believe [00:47:00] it's a good idea to make the member for HAA into a martyr because I'm sure he's not gonna change. Yeah, I hope he doesn't mind me picking him out, but I I'm sure he's not going to going to change his views because of a law passed in this house. He believes that he should follow, uh, laws passed in another and higher house, Mr Mr Chairman. So for that reason, I think that we will be going far enough if we pass part one of the bill. And [00:47:30] as I've explained to my electorate, uh, and the electorate has no doubts about this. I'm going to support, uh, part one, and I'm gonna support it completely. Not none of this, uh, pussyfooting around. I'm gonna support part one, and I am going to oppose part two. Mr. Banks, uh, we, uh, on this side of the argument are delighted, uh, to hear the revelations of the member for Auckland Central who hasn't spoken in this debate. I don't believe, uh to learn that [00:48:00] he's going to, um he's, uh, not going to support part two. we think this is a pretty obnoxious section of this bill. Uh, we think that, uh, the legalisation of the act of sodomy for 16 year old boys is abhorrent to us on this side of the house. 16 year old kids. Uh, but we won't have, uh, any part either of the second part of the act, which, um, simply, [00:48:30] uh, puts this down as an or an acceptable orientation. Sexual orientation, uh, in the eyes of the law because we say on this side of the house that, um the next thing will be coming and that this will mean is that, um, as someone who commits the act of incest, uh, can be accepted under these kind of terms in terms of the human rights, uh, of the country, Uh, somebody that has other [00:49:00] kinds of, uh, perversions with perhaps animals or something else, uh, should be accepted that because of their sexual orientation, they shouldn't be discriminated against by an employer or anyone else. And I have employed more people than anyone else in this house by thousands. And I have never, ever turned anyone down, uh, for employment opportunities on the grounds, uh, that, uh, that person, uh, is a homosexual or something else. In other words, because [00:49:30] of her or his sexual orientation. And, uh, but I am one of those on the side of the house. That is, uh, totally opposed to this parliament. Uh, legitimising and legalising on the statute book for part one of this, uh, bill. And that is the legalisation of the act of sodomy, Uh, between consenting boys of 16 years of age. And that's what we're considering. Yes, we do have an amendment from my friend and colleague, the member for Elton, uh, lifting this [00:50:00] age limit if you like, uh, to 20. Uh, but as as we see it in the substantive part of the bill and the bill before the house right now, uh is that the age should be 16. And we say that we don't want to know about that on this side of the house. And the member for Auckland Central is quite right quite right when he talks about, uh, people homosexual acts. We are not here, uh, saying and opposing the act of homosexuality, [00:50:30] uh, meaningful relationships between two men, whether they be 16 year old boys or 18 year old men. Uh, what we are opposed to is this parliament legalising the act of sodomy in this bill for 16 year old boys. So we are opposed to that, uh, Mr Chairman, and on this side of the argument. We represent 800,000 New [00:51:00] Zealanders, many of whom will be listening with great interest tonight to hear what we've got to say, Uh, we propose to fight this bill. This evil bill that will have insidious consequences for the moral fabric of this nation are the cornerstone of this society, the family unit and ultimately, democracy. And we say it is wrong. 800,000 New Zealanders say it's wrong. The majority of the people of say it is wrong, and I have plenty of evidence of [00:51:30] that. So they have sent me down here with a mandate to oppose this. I oppose it anyway, and I'm interested that the member for Napier, um, issues the challenge to the House to accept his amendment, which is very worthwhile indeed to have a wolf and, uh, inquiry done on this or a referendum. I've got to say that even if even if a referendum was held and, uh, the majority of New Zealanders want it, I still couldn't support it. It's sort of like, [00:52:00] uh uh, the debate on abortion and so on. I mean, you can't cut your conscience, uh, to fit the day the era and what we are worried about. Also, Mr Chairman, is once this bill gets onto the statute books and there's no doubt in our minds that part one of the bill will reach the statute books. We doubt very much if part two will get there for the reasons that the men of Auckland Central mentioned. But once part one [00:52:30] of the, uh, bill gets to the statute books, that is the legitimization and legalisation of sodomy between 16 year old boys. Will there be an amendment put forward to this principle act by some members of this house or a future Parliament are to lower the age to 15 or 14 or 13. Uh, we find that quite obnoxious. Uh, Mr Chairman, I will allow the member for Southern to speak the Honourable [00:53:00] Sullivan. Uh, Mr Chairman, I listened with interest to the member for Auckland Central and agree with the observations he made on part two of this bill. Uh, as to his comments on the martyrdom of those who take the opposing view, I would say that ecclesiastical supporters of homosexuality have not and cannot produce any [00:53:30] texts which present homosexuality as a legitimate sexual expression such Mr Chairman do not exist. Yeah, When I last spoke on this matter, I was referring to Maori opinion on the spill, but did not get very far when it was closing. Uh, when I had to end my speech. So I want to tell this house [00:54:00] that I have spoken with the leaders of significant Maori movements. I believe every significant Maori movement to consult with them on this bill. And even today there was a possibility of this continuing. And it is important for me to bring before this house on the short title uh, the summon substance of the opinion that was given, I believe the motion of the Hui Amur at its annual gathering [00:54:30] in Auckland over the days 22nd to 24th March. This has summed up my view point on this bill and I read in fact the resolution that this that is, of the Anglican Church of the Diocese of the Diocese of Auckland, which is the most populous, uh, statistically [00:55:00] evident group of Maori in this country. This a expresses its strongest opposition to the homosexual law reform bill which proposes legalising homosexuality between consenting males. Uh, the letter was signed by the archbishop of New Zealand at that time, the bishop of Auckland, the most Reverend Paul Reeves. On behalf of that community, [00:55:30] Mr Chairman letters lobbying me to support this bill have referred to homosexuals as an oppressed minority, likening the oppressed Maori minority to the bill's proponents. Some Maori groups have accepted this premise, but the leaders to whom I have spoken whose wisdom, uh, for whose wisdom I have significant and considered respect [00:56:00] do not agree with that premise, and I want to mention that I will not refer to them by name. But throughout Maori for this decade and previous ones, the group have been accepted as leaders throughout the four Maori electorates. I do not accept that premise. There is no sense in which the homosexual community can be compared with ethnic minorities, as has been made, [00:56:30] UH, A, as has been suggested. But ethnic minorities have traditionally been at the lowest end of the economic ladder, and that is certainly not true of the homosexual minority, for the level of education is much higher than the national average. Those are few Maori homosexuals who have been part of the gay liberation group have been characterised by a university education [00:57:00] and, of course, are among the higher salary earners. In fact, in America, the homosexual community has considerable economic clout because it is in the affluent, higher educated echelons of society. It has that economic clout and perhaps the existence of travel agencies, one of which is said to have some 20,000 members who are actively seek [00:57:30] areas of the world where safe homosexual sex may be pursued is of particular concern to the Maori leaders with whom I have spoken for overseas experience in my own observ observation overseas suggests that those who suffer most from proselytization and enticement into promiscuity are the indigenous [00:58:00] minorities. I will come back to that before calling the next member. Could I just say that the last member speaking and I didn't want to interrupt her? UH, may have may or may not have been here when the ruling was originally given on the relevance of, um of debate under the short title. But can I just repeat that we should be discussing specific clauses in the bill? We are required to do that by previous speaker's rulings on the subject, Um, and it's therefore necessary if members are to remain relevant for them to refer in their speeches to specific [00:58:30] clauses, I gather that the honourable member for Southern Maori was in fact pick picking up where she left off. Uh, in the second meeting, in fact, she admitted she was doing just that, and I didn't want in the spirit of a conscience debate, uh, to make too much of this. But in fact, we are not entitled to extend the second reading debate in the committee stages. We are here debating the bill clause by clause, as well as an amendment which has been moved by the Honourable Member for Napier. All of those matters that is the [00:59:00] clauses, um, of the bill, plus the amend now before the committee are now, as it were up for grabs, and members must, in order to be relevant, address themselves specifically to a clause or to the amendment. Mr. Williston, Mr. Chairman, having spoken in the second reading of the debate on the bill and expressed my support for all parts of the bill in that debate, I don't propose to range widely over the clauses of the bill, but instead want to address myself specifically to the amendment, which has been [00:59:30] moved by the member for Napier because I think it is something that the House needs to consider fairly closely. Uh, in moving that amendment, the member for Napier said that I think I quote him fairly accurately that he felt he moved the amendment because he felt that the 95 members of this house were not fit and proper people among themselves to decide on this matter. And I want to say that that may well be true. It may well be true of many matters that come before this house, but nonetheless, when we offer ourselves for election to the house, we do take on ourselves [01:00:00] that duty, rightly or wrongly, whether we are fit to do that, make those judgments or not. And I think that the Crimes Act and the contents of the Crimes Act are matters which are very much within the control of this house. It is a nettle we have to grasp, and I don't think that we can put that responsibility from ourselves at a late stage. I want to say that the amendment as proposed on the supplementary order paper, creates some real problems. It proposes a hybrid procedure that is, that we pass the bill or if we [01:00:30] pass the bill that we then move to establish a royal commission to examine the issues in the bill and from there to a referendum, Um, the Well, as I read it, um, Clause one sub clause two A er requires that a royal commission has investigated and reported on all aspects of homosexuality in New Zealand and be that a referendum be held now. What I want to say about that is that a royal commission can in fact be a very useful adjunct to legislation in matters of this kind. But if a royal [01:01:00] commission is to be held, it must surely precede the introduction of legislation and the passage of legislation. Surely the purpose of a royal commission would be, in fact, to examine the issues which might properly be in the legislation. And I ask the House to consider what on earth would be the purpose of passing a bill, which was to then come into effect when a royal commission had examined the issues which must in fact inform the drafting of and debate on a bill if we were to have a royal commission, we should have had it already. [01:01:30] I suggest that the issues have been so widely canvassed that one is in fact not needed. But I don't see how on earth we could pass the bill and then have a royal commission to see whether or not it is the right sort of bill. But to have a referendum after that would, I think, make the situation even more complicated. And I don't think that we can seriously contemplate such a hybrid matter. But there's one other point that gives me even greater cause for concern. And that is that. Sub Clause 13 of the proposed new clause requires the governor [01:02:00] general to be involved in making a judgement on the bill, not just in giving the royal assent as is required under our Constitution now, but in making a judgement. It requires the governor general to be satisfied that certain things have taken place before he can set a commencement date for the act and I suggest that it would not be very easy to satisfy oneself that a royal commission has investigated all aspects of homosexuality, and I doubt that the commission itself would ever make the claim. A royal commission would ever make the claim that it had exhausted all [01:02:30] aspects of a time put before it. So it would seem to me that passing this amendment would have two results which could be a very grave consequence. Firstly, we could end up with a bill which had passed through all stages, presumably been granted the royal assent but did not have a commencement date, did not come into force, hung in limbo, perhaps indefinitely an act that had been passed by the house but was perhaps never to come into force. And that is a constitutional nonsense, which should I think, concern the House consider. But the second point is even more significant. [01:03:00] That is a requirement that the governor general of New Zealand become involved in more than a formal way in legislation, become involved by the requirement that he make a certain judgement of some of some substance, become involved in a substantial and controversial matter of legislation and the thought of the people who have lobbied members of this House to act or not to act in a certain way. Lobbying the governor general of New Zealand. To act or not to act in a certain way is one which I think would be repugnant [01:03:30] to every member of this house because it would in fact have a constitutional effect which would be marked and would not be in the interest of the country. For that reason, I find that the amendment moved in good faith and of a technical nature. Uh, I think is not possible of passage If the House is not going to do considerable violence to some of the constitutional requirements under which we work. Mr. Norman Jones, I'd like I'd like to spend five minutes My first five [01:04:00] minutes on Clause five of this bill, which repeals Section 142 of the principal act relating to sodomy and substitutes a new provision, uh, related to anal intercourse. And it goes into some description about what, in fact, anal intercourse is. Well, I don't think too many of us need to be arguing too much about what the difference between solum and anal intercourse is. All I am saying is, if anal intercourse is legalised to replace sodomy, which is which is a crime, we will see New Zealand today, Mr [01:04:30] chairman pass from condemnation of sodomy to legalisation of sodomy, albeit by calling a intercourse under clause five and then to sponsorship of of, of sodomy. And, uh, we can do all talk about the gay bars. They may well be able to put up with the gay bars and the gay, uh, and the gay nightclubs and the restaurants and the Auckland and then the Wellingtons and even the Christchurch. But if this is legalised at 16, and for 12 year olds with consent providing [01:05:00] like the 16 year old can claim as an offence and he thought they were 12 years of age, then we're going to find it down in the in the car and then the the tyres. And then there's I just want to read out to the to the to, to define I. I know the act. The bill goes in and defines what anal intercourse is. I don't think we need to worry. I'm going to read out a submission, Uh, a letter from a specialist, Venero, who was prevented from making submissions. I've got his name here. He doesn't want me to give his name because [01:05:30] he treats mainly homosexuals. I'm prepared to table the letter he gave me, but he doesn't want his name. He treats homosexual. He's a friend of mine. He used to be in practise down in, uh in South, but he's been in orphan for years. He's a specialist, Venero. I'm a specialist, Venero. I want to tell this house what anal intercourse is, and and and I'm a specialist, Venero, who works at the coalface. Yay! The very tip of the pic and dealing with examining and treating male homosexuals and in the professional setting, treat them as I do all others [01:06:00] who consult the best of my professional ability. And I've had many comments of thanks and gratitude for this and the help given. However, I would like all members of Parliament who vote on the bill to be able to look over my shoulder as I do. Anal and rectal proto examinations, swabbings for cultures and treatment of anal warts, herpes, syphilis, gonorrhoea, etcetera, meaning inflammations, pass and diarrhoea, which results from the infection spread by sodomy. We're now talking about anal intercourse. Yes, nothing more or less than the unprotected [01:06:30] Penis inserted in many cases and still in spite of AIDS warnings, frequently with many casual partners, change partner change in a short time into the rectums and faces of such partners as an individual specialist mineralogist. I am no prude and I cannot conscientiously not prepared to table this letter consciously condone such practise, comparing as it does with the pigs who eat their food from amongst their own faces or a human walk through a sew without gun boots. I don't think there is any other [01:07:00] way to regard this. And though not religious, I can understand the social sanity of the prescription of such practises since biblical and bygone times apart from the now known infection risks. In addition, it came as a surprise to have starkly brought to my attention at a recent seminar I attended on sexology attended by many male and female homosexuals, some of whom were speakers and spoke openly discussed the fact that not only do these people have difficulty relating and feeling [01:07:30] at ease with medical practitioners and matters pertaining to sex and associated problems, but unless the doctor is homosexual and indeed some are that treat these people, they have the same difficulties over nonsexual matters, thereby highlighting the problem world of maladjustment almost bizarre, immature and social disease that they live in and seek to solve by only moving among their own kind. A type of withdrawal from society to a sexual and social apartheid, which, with the point mentioned Peter, I [01:08:00] would hate to see extenders as a normal feature of New Zealand's social life. Except what I am describing here is anal intercourse from a specialist Genero, and this is what this government. This is what this bill is now going to legalise to replace so anal intercourse is no replacement, no change at all. It's half a dozen of 1/6 of the other. Why the hurry? My own personal view is that enough is known of homosexuality now to label it as situational [01:08:30] and developmental, almost predictable and understandable when it occurs in individuals allowing that what occurs in the privacy of bedrooms among consenting adults or whatever age is greed is their own private business. As with heterosexuals instead of the 90 the MP S deciding what the country wants to these, perhaps you could take a lead in fostering the development of strongly family and heterosexual health and norms. As Luther said, Here I stand, I can do no other. Now there's from AAA specialist Genero, who treats basically homosexuals. [01:09:00] That's what anal intercourse is. I I'm very loath to interrupt members during, UH, five minute speeches, but I've already made the point twice that we are obliged in the short title debate to talk about the clauses of the bill. And we've had quite a lot of material. That's strictly speaking. Second reading material. If I can point members again to the speaker's rulings on this subject and uh, specifically to Speaker's ruling number six on page 36 it sets [01:09:30] out there that when Clause one is being considered, we must look at the drafting or other technical details of Clause four, Clause 44 or any other clause the member may wish to speak to in order to tie up its consideration of the details of a number of clauses. Emphasis is given to the clauses, and the ruling goes on to say the details of the drafting of the clause are a proper subject for consideration. Likewise, details understood drafting of other clauses. So, um, I'd like members to to when they're addressing [01:10:00] the short title, make sure that they're talking to a particular clause. And in doing so to the drafting and technical details of that clause or to the amendment, I don't think it's too rigid a requirement on members. I'm sure they can still say what they have to say without, in fact, giving another second reading speech a point of order, Mr Mallard, During the last speech, the member from Invercargill offered to table a document. I think it would be appropriate if that was put to the house now, rather than rather than left. I [01:10:30] think there is no objection to that big table. Uh, the member for Invercargill did did not in fact, do more than suggest that he might wish to table it. He didn't actually request for it to be tabled. He is free to do so. If he wishes. He likes to indicate that he wishes to table. I'll put that matter to the house. Is it the wish of the house that this document be tabled? I gather there is no objection. Therefore, the leave of the house is granted. Mr. Bray Brook. Mr. Chairman, I just want to briefly take a second call to explain [01:11:00] the reasons, uh, and solicit the the support of the house for the amendment moved in my name. Now the member for Nelson, um, put forward some reasons why it should not be supported. I want to point out to him, of course, that the reason is not that the bill should be passed and then have a royal commission of inquiry. It is that the bill should not be passed until such time as a royal Commission of inquiry has looked at all aspects of homosexuality. So I freely confess that if that is accepted, [01:11:30] the bill should not continue. I agree with the member for Nelson, it would be farcical to pass the bill and then have a royal commission of inquiry. That is not the purpose, Mr Chairman of my amendment. My amendment is that this bill should not proceed any further until such time as a royal Commission of inquiry has examined all aspects of homosexuality. I want to inform the house that I think that I have some very good support for that suggestion. One of the leading Christian theologians [01:12:00] of this country, no matter which particular church you may belong to, is Cardinal Williams of the Roman Catholic Church and This is what he said, uh, back in March when this bill 1st 1st presented to the House, and I believe it does support the need for greater research, he goes on the cardinal. His eminence says homosexual persons will not be served by examining only legal aspects of orientation and behaviour and ignoring social, medical, psychological [01:12:30] and moral aspects. The proposed bill does not do justice to this complexity. There is need for a sustained, systematic research. It would be tragic if the proposed legal change distracted attention from that need. I couldn't agree with Cardinal Tom Williams more because if this bill does become law as some people want it to be, then the chances of ever having an in depth investigation for the benefit [01:13:00] of home homosexuals and the rest of us, I believe will be lost forever. A Royal commission of inquiry can look into all those aspects mentioned by Cardinal Williams in his address. It can look Mr Speaker at the social, medical, psychological and moral aspects, and we would all surely be the better for it. Mr. Speaker, I believe that this Royal commission of inquiry is an absolute necessity. If we ignore it if we think that we know better. [01:13:30] If we are prepared to ignore public opinion, then I'm sad to say that this parliament will be the lesser for it. Public opinion decides the fate of each and every member in this house and without a commission of inquiry, let me tell you now, if we go regardless on then I believe that some members and I I say this on both sides of the House will unfortunately pay the penalty because of public opinion. The public have the right [01:14:00] to be informed of all the facts, not just one argument that I may care to put up. Or my colleague, the member for Wellington Central may care to put up. They should all know the facts and they should decide. And I urge members not to be sidetracked by some smart talk on legal aspects of what could or could not be. Research is required. It is necessary. Cardinal Williams is correct. I urge all members to vote for it if you're [01:14:30] frightened of a national referendum. As I said before, Mr Chairman, I'm quite happy that when the vote is taken that the first vote on a royal commission of inquiry have a vote on that and the second one to be on whether or not there should be a referendum and the people of New Zealand decide this very grave moral issue, I believe that we will ignore it at our peril. Mr. Chairman, Other aspects of the bill which I'm going to relate on briefly, is that it is all too demanding, especially Part [01:15:00] two and I will be introducing to counteract that thing that that part of the bill, that if it is passed it not really related to members of the armed forces, the police or prison officers. I believe that it would be absolutely horrendous for the members of the armed forces to be to not have as a disciplined reaction the fact that they could commit legal sodomy. In conclusion. Mr Chairman, this bill puts a cloak of respectability on on a practise which I believe [01:15:30] the majority of New Zealanders detest and do not want. But research into this problem is needed. The Honourable Peter Tapsell, Mr Speaker, I do not believe that the bill can, with any sense of logic, be amended if part one is to succeed and the legal sanction against sodomy between consenting adults be removed. Then there would seem to me [01:16:00] no good reason why the age of consent for such acts as between two men should be different from that applying as between a man and a woman. Nor and equally would I see any good reason why such an act between such persons shouldn't Such a person should not enjoy the protection of the human rights legislation. Or alternatively, [01:16:30] if part one is to fail, then, of course, other parts and the amendments are superfluous. That is my own view. I will oppose all six Mr Norman Jones. I'd like to spend some time on Clause three page two of the Bill Pat one Two new sections relate to in DC with Boys substituted in DC with boy between 12 and 16 and the clause on page [01:17:00] two of the bill everyone is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding seven years has been about assault. But the provision is it is a defence to charge under this section to charge under this section. If the person charged proves that the boy consented that he is younger than the boy. What I'm talking about here, Mr Chairman, is if legalised rights are given to you young males under this clause at 16 years of age, that is, pupils in the 5th and 6th forms of any [01:17:30] high school, and I've taught it for them. And and and and unfortunately, I can safely say that 3. 5 years in the services as a killer youth at 17, wounded, back home here at 19 years of age, wounded three times. I never struck a case of, of, of, of, of proposition of homosexuality, not even in the troop ship. It wasn't until I came back to teach at five high schools that I found cases. There were cases of of homosexuality between masters and pupils. And that's the worst [01:18:00] part of this is the worst feature of it that if legalised rights are given to young males of 16 years of age, I'm We're talking about pupils in the 5th and 6th forms. Then I believe, Mr Chair, that as a society we have totally abdicated our responsibility to protect our Children. And when I look at this sort of thing and I say in this day and age that, uh, try telling, try telling your 12 year old in the third form who gets into a liaison with 1/6 form or 1/5 [01:18:30] form and has a homosexual act. Anal intercourse with his consent and some of these third form boys. 12 years of age and 30 years of age. And I've got a 6 ft 5, 18 year old son and a 6 ft four son who was 6 ft when they were at the 3rd and 4th form playing rugby for the 1st 15 in the fifth form. And I can tell you that there's There's no way that 1/5 form sixth form of fifth form can say that the third form of fourth form under the age of 16, down [01:19:00] to the age of 12 with his consent. That's a defence Now. I'm saying that this is wrong as far as I'm concerned. Try telling your 12 year old son who comes home or your daughters, and that matters. 12 year old son who comes home. Try telling him that anal intercourse is abnormal, unlawful sex between males, and he said, It's lawful, Dad, I'm allowed to do it. We're not allowed to do it by consent, but bill in the 5th and 6th form, said, It's OK. He doesn't know I'm not 16. And [01:19:30] even if he's 16, the 2/5 and sixth forms get together. Try telling them that it's abnormal, that it's intercourse. Intercourse is perversion. And what do you say about this now legalised unnatural act when they say it's legal and we're 16 and we're consenting adults at 16 under this act, and what are you going to do about it? Stopping this at 16? I can well understand that consenting adults at 20 years of age and things like that. What they do in their own bedroom is their own business. [01:20:00] But there's no agreeing for me or anybody else in this house to say that 16 year olds are able to distinguish when they, when they when they proposition or influenced by older people or certainly 12 year olds. And anybody in this Parliament that votes for this bill of 60 year old is really building up some problems for the family unit Now, as far as I'm concerned, the so the the reason for bringing this in the main reason to bring it in this clause is that the that the that the homosexuals this country say they're being victimised, [01:20:30] persecuted and harassed under existing laws. That is simply not true. As spokesman for police, I've done my homework on this. I've looked up the I've looked up the records. There hasn't been a prosecution taken by the police in this country against consenting for 14 years. The police have got more to do. For goodness sake. They're out there on the front line getting stabbed and beaten up. They've got more to do than follow a couple of books home from a homosexual bar or pub and to find out what's going on in the bedroom. So there's [01:21:00] no harassment, no harassment. And because they say they've been harassed. Why, if they had come into this Parliament satisfied at 20 years of age, the same as the Ben Young Bill in 74? I doubt very much that I have been out campaigning against this bill to the same extent, and I believe frankly, that they are being too greedy when they are bringing it down to 16 years of age and to a 12 year old that is not on. And there's over 835,000 people in this country that will say it's not on and they are not going to go away. [01:21:30] They will be here. And I can promise this house and every member that votes for the 16 that those people will continue continue their campaign. And during the last eight years, Mr Chairman, only 72 persons have been charged with, uh, an imprisoned. There are only in prison at the moment for practising sodomy. Only 30 in prison, Mr Chairman, And does it matter three times? So I like taking the call again because nobody else has one in call. I'm [01:22:00] sorry, I presume. I said no Jones as it march the first Mr Speaker 1985. Only 13 persons last March haven't got the figures up since March were in prison for committing homosexual offences. And they were in prison because they were committing these offences indecent acts against non consenting adults. And that is still going to be a crime under this act. I appreciate [01:22:30] that. I'm not arguing that so. Those are the only people in prison. So where's the sexual harassment of consenting adults in private? Our police Look, I've gone round with the police cars in the evenings. They are more concerned with crimes against the person than watching homosexuals than they don't bother them. They don't harass them at all. And the homosexual violence will say. But the persecution? As far as I'm concerned, there's no prosecutions against consenting adults, never has been and are not likely to be. But the prosecutions [01:23:00] are when these people are propositioning and sodomising, non consenting adults or youth. And I want to go back to that clause. Mr Speaker, Mr Chairman, I can't see where the indecency you the boy under 18 to bring this in. I know that homosexuals argue that it's the same for heterosexuals, and there are members in this Parliament who will say, If it's good enough for the girls, it's good enough for the boy, for goodness sake. It isn't good enough for the girls anyway. And no parent wants to have his daughter [01:23:30] have carnal knowledge with anybody four or five years older than herself. Certainly not at 12 years of age. I know it happens, but that doesn't mean to say that we have to legalise it and give young boys who are more open to this sort of thing more open to this sort of thing among their peers. And as far as I'm concerned, anyone try telling you, Put yourself in the position of telling your 12 and 14 year old or your 15 your 5th and 6th form, that the association that he's got [01:24:00] with his friend is unnatural and not right. And what are we doing? We are normalising it, not legalising it. We are legalising it. We are normalising it. And what's more, it'll be commercialised. And when we've got this age around, I can tell. And I wasn't joking when I said that the homosexuals throughout the world who know they can't get their safe sex because of age with aged and older homosexuals will come to New Zealand in their thousands, looking for the 14 [01:24:30] and a 16 year old where they'll get reasonably safe sex free from age for some time. And we'll have surf, sun and scenery and safe sodomy. And I've said it before, and it's no laughing matter because they travel around these people and that's why the AIDS is is great and they travel from Sydney to Australia, and when they can, when they no longer can have safe sodomy in Australia and New South Wales and Victoria and in America. They will come to this country and they will [01:25:00] sodomise call it anal intercourse. There's no difference, and we're taking away something which is fine. I want to say nothing as as spokesman for police. If this act is brought in, our police are going to have an absolutely horrendous dimension placed on top of their present law and order. Things of going around trying to find out what's going on. They'll have another degree of responsibility looking after boys instead of girls when they see them in the streets looking after [01:25:30] boys with other boys Now I wouldn't wish that on the police force, and I'm not going to go into the Human Rights Party, and I'll do that in my next call. I'm just going to say it's going to put something onto our police at the moment, which they don't need, because we can't even cope with the crimes that we've got today without giving the police another dimension of having to look after 12 and 14 year olds and they'll get complaints. All right, there's no question of doubt about that there'll be complaints coming and we can talk about all the incest complaints 400 on that programme the other night, but not from the police will be getting [01:26:00] complaints from the police and they've got enough to do. And as far as I'm concerned, I don't think when it comes to crunch that this parliament and I believe when it comes to the final vote 16 or nothing and remembering that 16 means 12 year olds consenting, consenting 12 year olds with their consent is a defence. I'm not gonna say that they could get away with it, but it is a offence and in most cases they won't get any worse treatment than what a 16 year old gets with a 14 or 13 year old girl. [01:26:30] And we're talking here about talking here about not prison sentences. We're talking about $100 fine in the courts the other day. That's right, with boys of 67 year olds of 14 and 30 year old girls, $100 fines, no imprisonment with their consent. I'm talking about Mr Speaker I. I would I would say that that Clause three that's the crunch of the thing down to 60 years. We can't have it. Helen Clark, Speaker. We've been treated again to 15 minutes of the bizarre fantasies of the member for in the Cargill, who appears to believe [01:27:00] that this bill is somehow going to attract thousands of sex tourists to New Zealand. I wonder, sir, if he has considered whether Poland or Czechoslovakia or Italy or Holland or Norway or the United Kingdom, which have rational laws on homosexuality, have attracted sex tourism of that sort because they have a decriminalised homosexuality. And I suggest, sir, that his argument [01:27:30] is specious, as is the interjection of the member for Ponga. Unfortunately, sir, there are members here who are obsessed with the personal practises, sexual practises of the minority of the community who are homosexual. And a couple of weeks ago, when I interjected on the member for Invercargill that he was obsessed, he was only too happy to agree with me and said that he had a magnificent obsession. What I object to, sir is the constant confusion of one's [01:28:00] personal obsessions with what should be written into the statute books of this country, and you make bad law when you try to write the personal prejudices of individuals about this matter into our statutes. If the police have better things to do as the member for Invercargill attempted to argue a few moments ago, why keep this law on the statute books? If the police have better things to do, then enforce it? Why are we hearing so many [01:28:30] arguments against passing the bill coming on to the member for Napier's amendment? Mr. Chairman, I have some considerable constitutional objection to what he has moved. He has moved that the act shouldn't come into force until the governor general is satisfied that a royal commission has investigated the subject of homosexuality, nor until a referendum has been held. I think it is highly [01:29:00] undesirable that the governor general should be brought into an issue of this sort. In this way, it's a long standing convention in the Westminster system of government that the executive should not be closely involved in matters which are more properly those of Parliament. And I consider this amendment runs contrary to all the constitutional conventions under which we operate. But, sir, if we were to take seriously the proposition that there [01:29:30] should be a royal commission, I think it's probably fair to observe that no amount of sane evidence before a royal commission would convince some members that homosexuality ought to be decriminalised by members of this House voting. And I would submit that the only royal commission which some members are interested in would be a royal commission which came up with evidence which they agreed with. And that would be extremely unlikely because the weight of the evidence, [01:30:00] which was heard by the select committee considering the bill, was overwhelmingly in favour of the bill being passed. And I find it unlikely that any royal commission in this day and age would be so stacked that it could come out with findings other than that the decriminalisation of homosexuality was long overdue in this country. Can I deal just briefly, sir? With the argument of the member for Auckland Central against Part two [01:30:30] of the bill. And he argued that it was right to have a sexual discrimination and discrimination on the grounds of colour covered by the Human Rights Commission Act because, he said, individuals could not change their sex or the colour I submit so that the weight of the evidence is that adults cannot change their sexual orientation either, and that that is an argument why sexual orientation [01:31:00] should be covered by the Human Rights Commission Act. I would say that the reason that many members, like the member for Auckland Central, are unable to cite many cases of discrimination against sexual from that is an unhealthy social climate. And if we change the law to decriminalise, the next natural step to take is also to ensure that people cannot legally [01:31:30] discriminate against that behaviour.

IRN: 910
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TITLE: Parliament: second reading debate - Homosexual Law Reform Bill (16 October 1985) - part 2
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VOICES: Koro Wetere; Merv Wellington; Richard Northey; Rob Storey; Winston Peters
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Koro Wetere; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Merv Wellington; Parliament buildings; Richard Northey; Rob Storey; Wellington; Winston Peters; equality; homosexual; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; human rights; law; politics
DATE: 16 October 1985
YEAR: 1985
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from parts of the debate during the second reading of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill, 16 October 1985 (part 2 of 2).
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Mr Peters, Speaker the member for To began by using some similar between the Springbok tour question and the question of this bill. He said that those who were opposed as those who support the Springbok tour were strangely opposed to this bill. I want to ask him whether or not he thinks the Converse is true. [00:00:30] And if he does or if he does not, why did he raise that issue tonight in a bill which is a entirely separate matter? The fact is that the overwhelming population of Tonga Rio his electorate, are opposed to this bill. But he's entitled to cast his vote on his conscience because it is the greatest and most fundamental principle of democracy, and I respect him for it. I'm not opposing [00:01:00] him on the grounds that he's out of step with his electorate. The fact of the matter is, he's in step with his conscience, and for that reason, those of us who have a different view are entitled to respect him and should do so. I want to begin tonight with the words of, uh, one Jeffrey Weeks in a magazine called Coming Out where he says, and I quote the law does not create public opinion, but it does shape and reinforce it unquotes. And so I want to pass on [00:01:30] and move on to the comments from the member for Wellington Central, who, when she spoke on the second meeting, said. These words all the Western world has done it and I'm paraphrasing what she said. All the Western world has done it or is doing it and so we should. And so the first thing that came to my mind is, Well, if that's the case, well, why don't we follow the economic policy? Why don't we follow their policy on defence, or is there something peculiar and strange [00:02:00] about this social issue? Which means we must do what they do but when we must not do what they do on issues of more paramount importance to a greater number of humanity, of greater number of humanity to follow the bent, the principle which used to which used to motivate the New Zealand Labour Party and its Socialist supporters. And then, she said basic sexuality is like being left or right handed and made then [00:02:30] the accusation that those who did not support this bill were prejudiced, biassed or homophobic. I have to thank her, though, because she did not repeat the accusations. She's previously repeated that Soloman Gamaa was merely practising a hostility code against all the analogy analysis of history. She made that claim and dropped it on the second reading, and I thank her for it. And then [00:03:00] she did not this time seek to identify famous men who are now dead and claim that they were what they were not. And for that she should. And the House should be grateful, I don't know. But I don't believe in damning people who are not here to defend themselves. And, of course, the member for Waikato, uh, for Hamilton West wouldn't know about that, wouldn't know about that. And then So she [00:03:30] asked MP S. And this is an imputation of the worst kind to look beyond their own vague anxieties. I mean, here we are expected to respect each other's points of view, and she, the promoter of the bill, asked those who do not support her view to look beyond their own vague anxieties, as though they didn't care who were not concerned about those people in their electorate who were supporting this bill. She said that we should [00:04:00] follow and to quote her words, the professionals and the experts. But I want to know. What about the ordinary New Zealander, the ordinary men and women out there? Are they not entitled anymore in our democracy and in our parliament? To a voice? Well, they're not professional and they're not expert. They're just ordinary New Zealanders, the salt of this country, but the people who have made this country and will always be the driving [00:04:30] force in our economic survival, she said. Sir, that research had showed. And this I do not believe because I sat on the select committee as long as she did more days than she did more days than cheated more days than the member who is interjecting now did more days than he did. And, sir, I know at the point of what I can handle him Speaker. Don't worry, I'm not a friend of fire. Any advice from any member, [00:05:00] including the member from Invercargill, the member from Hamilton West, will rise in his seat and withdraw and apologise. Mr Peters. She said that 25% of all men have had significant homosexual experiences and some redeeming feature, she said. Not all, of course, are basically homosexually orientated. The member for Hamilton West, of course, said that 60% [00:05:30] of men have 50% have had homosexual experiences. I wanna say to men and women in this house who are of my age that I believe I have knocked around as many and as more times as any of them. And I don't believe that research and what's more on analysis scientifically, they cannot substantiate such a claim in this house. He and she know that. And if the argument is meritorious, then why [00:06:00] falsify it? Why falsify it? She then went on to quote further further evidence before the select committee and for that reason, sir, because they seek to quote evidence, I want to analyse the history of that select committee because the fact of the matter is that first of all, we had a petition, and the most outrageous claim I heard was that the man of Marsden Point, the men [00:06:30] who have had a strike record of independence against their own union and the FOL in this country unparalleled were being strong armed into signing the petition. That's what she said in May of this year. I am asking this question. If the argument for the bill is so meritorious, why falsify the facts? And here we find that men at Marston Point, according to the member for Central, are being [00:07:00] frog masked into the place where the petition is being held and to silence and then share. The history of this bill before the committee is that in May of this year there was a by-election, and accordingly, because it became politically embarrassing, the committee's hearings were adjourned, postponed and deferred. If the arguments for this bill are so meritorious, [00:07:30] why was the select committee of this house being fiddled with and manipulated? It's for them to answer the question. Not for those of us who have a different view on the bill. It's for them to answer the question. If the arguments for the bill are so cogent, powerful and ever convincing, and the majority of New Zealanders, according to her words, are for it, why then was the committee being manipulated on this bill? And [00:08:00] sir, it does not improve because there's a logic to my argument. I don't care what side of the issue on the logic if you're in support of the homosexual law reform bill and you believe it's meritorious. The logic lies with the facts, not with somebody's human political behaviour. We have the member for Hamilton West on the 18th of September 18th of September, writing to all government MP S No Hamilton West, [00:08:30] 18th of September. Writing to all government MP S He was then the chairman of the Select Committee to hear it and he wrote to a page and a half opposing the petition to come before that committee did ever anybody acted so impartial. Biassed and Predis, the chairman of the committee, I say again that the arguments in support [00:09:00] of this measure are so cogent, powerful and meritorious. Why did people act in such a fashion? Why did they pervert the parliamentary process of this country? The Select Committee Democratic president of this country? If the bell stood on its own mirrors, let them get tonight, Let them answer the allegations. Not me, because I'm motivated for reasons which may not on [00:09:30] the face of it appear apparent to many people. I'll explain before I finish the night. Why? Because to Winston Peters, it holds a matter of my backbone and the need to survive. And then, while the member for Mount Eden might laugh. But I assure him, I assure him that if medical science does not find a remedy for what we face, he will not laugh at two years time. [00:10:00] And if he's got any conscience, he may feel a sense of responsibility. And then, sir, I was on the select committee as the matter came up for consideration. Or rather, should it come for consideration, they saw they sought then, sir, to pervert the parliamentary process. The there was no consideration of the matters before the committee as they should have been. Expert witness [00:10:30] on the final evidence was not called, and the committee was shut down, shut down in respect to a matter that had brought more interest than any other that this country has ever seen. Shut down. And I don't say on a party vote. I didn't make that allegation, not on a party vote. But I say to the member for, uh, Napier that some people have rudely dealt with the support, [00:11:00] uh, and with the background of his party, and that's a fact. Now, sir, the member, the deputy Prime minister when he was on talking about the Select Committee process process, did this on select committees that they that he will give them more power, that they will be able to initiate their own inquiries. These select committees minority reports will be permitted. [00:11:30] And, he said, we also need a real opportunity for select committees that is for the public to participate in the making of public decisions. The deputy prime minister said that the paragon of constitutional virtue from Christchurch said that the man who once used to give lectures about it said that and he's having to sit here tonight knowing that what I'm saying is true know it all happened the way he said it would not happen. [00:12:00] And he's not a mutter, not a murmur, not a word of protest from that man. We need a real opportunity for the public to to participate in the making of public decisions. Well, sir, 800,000 New Zealanders sign a petition. I don't care whether 100,000 are wrong, false or fraud. That petition, sir, warranted due consideration, and it receives a no recommendation [00:12:30] vote. Good girl. Point of order. Trevor Mallard, point of it's my understanding, sir, that the select committee decision on the petition has not been reported to the House. And I asked whether the last comment was there for an order. Well, I think, uh, that the that the point is well taken. Um, the the member, uh, is debating the principles of the legislation. And I think that he tied what he had to say in reference to the petition to [00:13:00] to what, uh, what he perceived as being a principle, Uh, in respect of of the handling of the legislation. Um, I'd have to ask him, though, to confine his remarks to reflections upon the principles and not what's happening in the select committee yet to report back. Mr. Principle, I'm talking about tonight, sir, is survival. It's a principle which has not been addressed by many people in this house. And I don't believe by the looks of things that ever will. But [00:13:30] if I am wrong, I will be very happy. But if I am right, it won't be on my conscience. It won't be on the conscience of people who feel like me tonight, but it will be on the conscience of those who could not face the facts and the issues before them would not, and they serve will live to regret that day. But I hope I'm wrong. You see, sir, I, uh, got a letter from the Lincoln College Student Association, as I did for many others [00:14:00] supporting and total this bill and I wrote back to her a lady called Kirsty Burnett. A woman called Kirsty Burnett. And I asked her, What survey did she do in her university to back up her Her university studentships total endorsement of this bill. And I'm still waiting for a reply. 28th of May. I'm still waiting for a reply. Wellington Victoria University wrote to me and I founded in a survey of 5% of their studentship [00:14:30] still waiting for a reply as to how can they possibly demean the democratic voice of the institution, make claims which are totally false, And we still so for applied as to what the public of this country feel. And I'm still appalled that the Highland poll claims to have done analysis on the in this country of how New Zealanders feel when they know full well and everybody who's ever studied political [00:15:00] science in this country know full well that their analysis was totally unscientifically. Why did they not put before the people in their question the full issue of this bill? Why are they not doing it? Was there somebody who sought to pervert the public voice in favour of this bill? So I am drawn inexorably to that conclusion. No mention in the head and fall of the human rights provision or part two of this bill whatsoever. [00:15:30] And they claim to tell me that the public feel a certain way. I don't say to them simply this. I have got here a survey of the Tauranga electorate, the one that, uh, supports me. It says that the number of people signed the petition total 15,721 and if they are 50% wrong. Not that I am minded, As I said to the member of Rio, how on a conscious issue, the electorate thinks because in the end you must live up with your own conscience. [00:16:00] About 15,721 people signed their petition in my electorate, and a member opposed to me said that I live in some frequent, cranky crack electorate Mr Winston Peters the issues which concern me before I close because it's a brief speech. But sitting on the committee in submission four and six, the leading witness said that he saw nothing wrong with nothing wrong with homosexual marriage nor adoption, [00:16:30] that he would not go along with any laws preventing homosexuals from giving blood. And I was appalled at that and that he would be disturbed if Educationalist promoted heterosexuality. Sex Equality Advisory Committee will cop the group of lesbian and homosexual teachers to present the policy paper at next year's conference. That's the hidden agenda that's a hidden agenda. But [00:17:00] the Australian agenda. For those who think that's a joke, the Australian agenda, which is likewise the agenda here from Tim Tim Mul of the Australian Paedophile Support Group, is quote. The Australian community seems unwilling or unable to make a distinction between paedophilia and child rape. Can we develop a radical course of action to throw off the accusation that gay people are child molesters, fight the problems of rape and [00:17:30] accept paedophilia as a viable sexuality unquote Tim Mult of the Australian Paedophile support group I. I'll have to draw the attention of people in the gallery. They are not, uh, order, order, order. Uh, they're not part of the debate. And, uh, therefore, it's not in order for them to register any form of reaction. [00:18:00] Um, so I would I would I would have to say to them that, uh that what they are doing, um, is not an order. And, uh, they they won't be allowed to stay if that continues, uh, for the member, for order. If the if the member just for the moment, it is not, of course appropriate for any member to address the gallery either. Mr. Peters? Uh, two minutes. If it doesn't stop there. This is the next quote. Childhood is the last bastion of patriarchal capitalism, [00:18:30] and we must take up the struggle. Same group. Childhood is the last bastion of patriarchal capitalism, and we must take up the struggle. So I believe to conclude that we sit on a medical holocaust and it requires a response, an answer and a solution. Long before we address the concerns of this bill. I know that Dr Goldwater, who recently spoke [00:19:00] in respect to an AIDS conference in Atlanta, doesn't agree with me as to the measures But he said that we face in this measure our Holocaust, to match the nuclear Holocaust. The only one that was more paramount was the nuclear Holocaust. I find, sir, that 1000 people have got AIDS in Australia already. Current evidence, The member for London Central said that we must go to San Francisco and see well, people have been so. And I find that increase in [00:19:30] sex in sexual diseases in San Francisco is up 2400% since the liberalisation of this measure in that city. She cannot deny it. Those are the facts I say I find from a report which is not mine, but from the homosexual community itself that deaths in America. New York City 3415 San Francisco 1141 as of 22nd April 85 both cities who have no laws against [00:20:00] this measure and then I find that AIDS becomes the top killer in New York on the 16th of August this year. Top killer in New York on the 16th of August this year. At the end of the day, Mr Speaker, it's the duty of every member of parliament to prevent a preventable evil, and aid is still for every New Zealander, a preventable evil. The passage of this bill within two years, if overseas evidence is an [00:20:30] indicator, will in New Zealand be the number one medical problem, some will say that sexual hedonism is more important. Others will say that the greater public good lies and giving in to to sympathy and to fine feelings. Mr Mr Speaker, I was amazed to find the previous speaker commenting on my responding to his speech because I was, in fact sitting with my pen, poised [00:21:00] to write down anything that he said that had anything to do with this bill so that I could reply to it and the pad is still empty. This is basically a matter of basic human rights. The ability for us is mature adults to allow other mature adults to express sexual activity that is basic to their own nature. It is a question of [00:21:30] the right to develop and express the intrinsic nature of one's person. It is the ability to be able to give and to receive affection from others. It is a question of ensuring that there is equal access to the provision of basic needs, such as employment and accommodation to all people. [00:22:00] I find it quite amazing to hear the previous speaker suggesting that the passage of this bill is going to bring on a Holocaust in the collapse of human civilization. Most countries in the world have treated in law in the role of the state, heterosexual and homosexual acts equally for a very long time. [00:22:30] In the case of Spain, for instance, which has allowed both heterosexual and homosexual acts from the age of 12 for the last 150 years there is only 1/10 the incidence of AIDS in the population than there is here because people are able to seek and gain basic information and education and responsiveness regardless of their sexual orientation. [00:23:00] We've had suggestions about, uh, promoting paedophilia, which is nonsense. Not in this bill. We've had suggestions that in the Middle East, 50% of the people are homosexual, and the only reason given for it was that they are allowed four wives each. There is nothing in this bill to allow people to have four wives, and in fact, Muslim Muhammad and teachings [00:23:30] are very much based on the Old Testament they prescribe homosexual acts just as strongly. And Iran, for instance, the penalty for homosexual acts as death i B. It's got a great deal to do with some of the comments that have been made on this bill. The basic point is that about 10% of a population, regardless of their criminal structure, their [00:24:00] social structure express naturally a homosexual orientation. We had clear evidence from the Department of Health submissions quote. Homosexuality is no longer considered, with the men within the medical and other health professions to be a disease. Increasingly, it has come to be viewed as a normal psychosexual variant, one of a number of possible sexual orientations. [00:24:30] The then go submission then went on to state from the health Department that an essential and integral component of mental health is the individual sense of identity and self esteem and his or her perceived value in society. This position underlies the frequent observations made in clinical practise that the major causes of mental distress found among some persons of homosexual orientation derived not from that orientation itself, [00:25:00] but from the attitudes of the wider society and the laws which give them expression. The US National Institute of Mental Health, noted that the problems facing many homosexuals are caused by the need for concealment and the emotional stresses arising from the appro of being in violation of the law. We have in fact very strong evidence [00:25:30] that the homosexual orientation, just as the heterosexual orientation is formed in very early years of life and that it is not a matter of choice for the individual, the it is something like left handedness developed early in life and perfectly normal. And I think it is ludicrous to suggest that something which [00:26:00] is common to all societies is not normal, and to then go on to deny legal acceptance and legal rights to those who differ from us in only disrespect when it is not causing harm to others is quite ludicrous, grossly unfair and showing a lack of respect. I There's [00:26:30] been much argument about the question of of lifestyle and I think the emphasis, the description in some ways of homosexuality is the alternative lifestyle in fact derives from the obsession with sexuality, which many in our society have. It is in most cases only the sexual component of their life that is different, and even in that the way in which the methods in which it is expressed are [00:27:00] in most cases, the same as for heterosexuals. They yeah, the suggestion that one's sexual orientation can be changed or determined by deduction or race or rape is as ludicrous for homosexuals as it is for heterosexuals. There is clear evidence in this matter that such events [00:27:30] do not change the basic sexual orientation and may in fact, of course, leave permanent scars in terms of expressing sexual activity at all. But the point is, and it's clearly shown that the attraction to sexual activity with people with Children is a illegal and harmful variant as common among homosexual as as homosexuals and [00:28:00] heterosexuals. To the same relevant degree, the question really arises. Is the human right to be able to express affection and an emotional life for all people rather than a continuing persecution for a characteristic over which people have control a question of mutual respect and acceptance [00:28:30] for people as people and the right to full participation in life? And this is the stand which I believe members of parliament should take on the evidence and on what is right or wrong, alright, when I stood for Parliament said quite clearly that I would support reform of the law that would ensure that homosexual and heterosexuality [00:29:00] were treated the same in law. In terms of the response from my electorate, I have received 953 letters from my constituents in favour of the change and only 100 and 76 against the change. And of those 953 in FAVOUR, 930 were in favour of the whole bill, including the age of consent, the same as for heterosexuals [00:29:30] and the provision of the human rights clauses in the petition that was carried out against the homosexual law reform law. Those signed by many people on the basis of their sincere belief is a fatally flawed document. In many respects, the suggestion made by the previous speakers that [00:30:00] people on Mars than point would not, uh, succumb to this sort of pressure is in fact, and he would know it misleading. The macho attitudes prevalent in our society mean that that is exactly that sort of pressure to which the workers on Marston Point could not stand up to, and I have had letters of similar pressure applied. A woman, [00:30:30] terminally ill in a hospital in my electorate was pressured to sign the petition by her nurse, and in those circumstances where somebody was totally dependent, that was a gross invasion of her, her privacy and her rights, he argued. The point finally did not sign the petition and died within 24 hours. I urge members of Parliament who may be considering [00:31:00] voting against the second reading of the bill because they are not yet convinced of the right of some parts of it, should let it go forward because there is clearly a need to change from a law which sentences to lengthy terms in prison. People who are carrying out activities basic to their nature and what may be regarded as a sin against God cannot be regarded [00:31:30] as something for which such severe penalties should be provided. In the law of this nation. There is a desperate need for change, and I urge members to vote for this reading and then to consider which is the appropriate amendments or type of vote to take at a later stage. The one of the key questions, of course, is the implications for the physical health of people, [00:32:00] Mr Richard nor the Eden. A quote from the Department of Health submission again and physical health problems can result from promiscuous sexual behaviour in both homosexual and heterosexual persons. By contributing to the speed of the spread of sexually transmitted diseases such as syphilis, it should be emphasised that it is the promiscuity rather than the sexual orientation, which is the crucial factor determining the transmission of [00:32:30] such diseases. And the best way of reducing such practises is through effective education in a non coercive environment. The December 1984 uh edition of the expert public publication Sexually Transmitted Diseases, has found that there are a lower proportion of most sexually transmitted diseases among homosexual [00:33:00] men than among the populace generally, and that this had arisen because they are in fact intrinsically no more, um promiscuous and careless in their sexual activities than were other members of the population. And of course, the publicity about AIDS had effectively reached that population in an area where that activity is legal and [00:33:30] the proportion was dropping very rapidly. Among that population, the extent to which promiscuous and dangerous sexual activities occur is related to the nature of the law and to myths around the issue and the myths which have been expressed in this parliament tonight about different levels of activity and in other countries is related to those myths rather than to reality. The [00:34:00] with respect to the issue of AIDS. World experts, ill AIDS have made the following comments, Dr Pearl Maher, the chief of clinical microbiology in New York, said. Quote New Zealand's laws and conservative attitudes against male homosexuality are a major problem in trying to combat AIDS. Doctor David Miller, a clinical psychologist and a leading researcher into AIDS prevention, said in Auckland in January this year, [00:34:30] Quote, The single most helpful action the government could take is to legalise homosexuality. I must state that the AIDS Foundation and also the gay community in New Zealand have done a tremendous job in effectively educating, educating the openly gay community about prevention and about safe sexual practises. The problem is in the education and the information getting to those practising homosexuals [00:35:00] who keep their activity and orientation secret and who also take part in heterosexual activities, often within a marriage situation and who will, unless the law and social attitudes change to an extent will spread AIDS into the heterosexual community unless changes are made. What must be prevented are promiscuous and dangerous sexual activities, whether homosexual or heterosexual. If [00:35:30] the spread of AIDS is to be prevented in this country, the um next point I'd like to make is regards to the the question of the attitude which has been expressed that homosexuality is an inferior sexual activity because the length of relationships is less [00:36:00] the and the and the suggestion that more promisary activity is engaged in. And yet these are caused very much by the legal situation and if the legal situation was changed. Those who are concerned to preserve families, whether the traditional family or a family that could be, um, consists of a stable homosexual relationship that it is the change in law which will, um, secure those [00:36:30] relationships to be both more lasting and greater in depth. We had many distressing examples given to us in evidence to the committee about the effects of homosexuality in marriage, about one woman who found found out for the first time that her husband was a homosexual when she was run from the police station and told of the activity for which he'd been arrested. [00:37:00] Another who sends her child to a special school outside her neighbourhood in order to endeavour to prevent their fellow uh, pupils describing their father is a criminal and a pervert. There is quite clearly a need to support a change in the law. Having token laws is bad for respect for the law. In general, [00:37:30] the age ought to be the same for both homosexual and heterosexual activities and for boys and girls for several reasons. One, The attitude has been clearly implied that boys are somewhat more special than girls and need protection for a longer period of time. I reject that the sexism inherent in that statement. I am concerned that if the age was raised to 20 the dilemma of the young person [00:38:00] uncertain of their sexual identity and their ability to seek counselling and advice would be would be greatly reduced, even beyond the situation now and given the harm that it would be done to that group at a time when people are at their most vulnerable. I'm not sure how I would vote if the age were in fact raised, so that group were not given protection. The human rights aspect also is [00:38:30] vital to this, and there are some misinterpretations about it. The law quite clearly says that people can still say whether or not they are in favour of homosexuality or even whether they regard it as a mortal sin. People will still be able to discriminate in the choice of people in terms of employment on the basis of their sexual activity. The law deals only with the question of their sexual orientation. And that is something, as I said, which [00:39:00] is not determined by the person is intrinsic to them as the colour of their skin or their sex. And it is essential if public attitudes are to be changed. And if real protection is to be given to these people to play an equal role in society, then that law also must be changed. Mr. Speaker, I urge Parliament to pass the second reading of this so that the degree of reform that is needed [00:39:30] in this area can be carried out. Uh, yes. Uh, Mr Mr Story, when this bill was introduced to the house, I voted against it. A large number of people have written to me and asked Why did you vote against this bill? Let me answer that question. My answer has been that I voted against this bill because of the method by which [00:40:00] it was introduced to the house and the timing of its introduction to the house. I voted against it because I believed it was introduced by the private member, the junior government whip, with the four connives in support of the government as a useful diversion from the very serious matters affecting our economy and our deteriorating position within the world family of free developed nations. Mr. Speaker, [00:40:30] I voted against the bill because I objected to the way in which a measure which was studied at great length in Britain, was brought before the house with very little expert opinion. A bill which was sifted, examined, considered, went to a royal commission and then came back to the parliamentarians who are already laymen elected to make laws, then [00:41:00] came back to the parliamentarians with a body of expert opinion upon which they could rule. And I believe and I still believe, Mr Speaker, that that would have been the proper and correct course of action to take for this proposal in this situation and if that course of action had been taken, Mr Speaker, much of the damage which has been done between the homosexuals and our community and the heterosexual community, the rift which is developed [00:41:30] and which is not going to go away, no matter how we vote on this bill, I believe that that could have been avoided, Mr Speaker, and I believe it still could be avoided. Mr Chairman, if the matter was referred to a royal commission, then a real opportunity would be given for the many people who are not able to have their submissions heard. But more importantly, it would have also enabled some people who are experts in particular fields of knowledge which [00:42:00] this house requires information from to have used their expertise to have examined the submissions made by their fellows to have commented on them, criticised them, debated on the subjects introduced and who have arrived at a considered body of opinion for parliamentarians to work from. In fact, that has not happened and at this stage, having gone through a lengthy procedure of [00:42:30] select committee, we are in the process of debating in this house a topic about which not many of us know a great deal. We are listening to facts being described as myths if it suits certain people and other judgments being made on the basis of individual experience and limited knowledge. And I would say Mr Speaker, that if that is the way we are to go about changing law in this most important area, if that's what we as politicians and lawmakers are prepared [00:43:00] to accept, it is little wonder that the people of New Zealand, from time to time have a very low opinion of our reasoning and thinking capacity. Mr. Speaker, No matter what decision this house makes, the debate is going to continue. And if the majority of New Zealanders do not accept the final decision of this house in this after these particular debates, then the estrangement that exists now between the homosexual [00:43:30] and heterosexual community which did not exist prior to this bill being introduced, will be continued heightened and widened. And the ostracism which is said to be felt by homosexuals, certainly is going to increase. It is not going to go away. Mr. Speaker, I want to comment on the way in which I went about polling opinion in my particular electorate. Initially, at an early stage, the local [00:44:00] newspaper conducted a postal survey and 100 people responded to that. 90 of them wanted the law to remain the same, and it must have been around. About 100 and 30 responded. 29 wanted legislative 8 16. They supported the legislation. That survey was conducted in March. The gay rights movement commissioned the Highland Poll to move into Huntley, and they found, according to their poll of an undisclosed number of people, [00:44:30] that 55% of the people in Huntley favoured a law change. At a later stage. Mr Chairman, I undertook a poll of 400 people in my electorate. And, uh, in that poll, 56% of the respondents were against a law change. 44% were in favour. I then took an opinion poll of the churches in my electorate, seven were against change, four [00:45:00] were in favour of change and finally I came to perhaps the most important sector, the medical fraternity, and polled the doctors who practise in the electorate. Four were against change, five were in favour of change, and the question asked was whether or not they felt that a change in legislation would help or hinder the containment of AIDS. Finally, the petition. Or perhaps I should say, the petitions. I didn't find the petition [00:45:30] which was presented on the steps of Parliament, an extreme or reactionary document. Nor did I find a way in which it was presented extreme or reactionary, found the way in which the gay rights movement went about their protest in most cases to have been unacceptable. There were on occasions, Mr Speaker, extremes on both sides, and I'd deplore that sort of extreme behaviour, which can only further divide [00:46:00] the community. I noted with interest that 4580 people in my electorate signed the homosexual law reform bill, Uh, the petition against the homosexual law reform bill. I have no evidence to find that any one of them were pressured to sign or that anyone signed who didn't understand what they were doing. Mr. WR story Waikato as I also accepted the petition of 56 staff at the University of Waikato who signed a petition [00:46:30] to me asking me to support the correction of an existing law effectively denying equal rights to homosexual citizens in New Zealand. So I have had two petitions, two conflicting petitions, and I acknowledge them both, and I accept the viewpoint of the people who signed those petitions. Mr. Speaker, I am opposed to both sections of the bill, as they are before the house. At the present time, I recognise [00:47:00] some of the psychological problems of homosexuals who feel alienated from society, and I have sympathy with their particular needs. But, Mr Speaker, I want to talk for a moment, not about the psychological condition of homosexuals. I want to talk about one subject, and that is the question of AIDS. And I want to use a piece of information, a petition which was presented to the committee [00:47:30] but which was not heard. It was an expert submission from a surgeon who is involved in his day to day work in surgery in the area of the rectum in the anal area and who has a particular knowledge and I suppose, a particular concern in the effect on medical people of the passage of this particular bill. The doctor was Jeffrey Jones. He comes from the Hamilton East [00:48:00] Electorate, which may be of interest to the member from that electorate past president of the New Zealand Association of Part-time Hospital staff and that particular person very much regretted that he did not have the opportunity to go to the select committee to make his particular point of view known, his expert point of view known. And I'm going to Mr Speaker present to the house some of the information that he presented in written form and would [00:48:30] have elaborated on had he been invited to attend that committee. Mr. Speaker Wyn Jones makes one or two points, and the first one is about one of the common dangers of nurses of doctors. And that's the danger of needle stick. This is a needle, Mr Speaker, which is commonly used to extract blood from patients. It's one of the old tight needle you take off the guard. [00:49:00] You place the needle in the patient, you withdraw the blood and then hopefully because that needle by that stage is infected. You put it back with a little bit of luck into the guard, and you don't damage your fingers. And you do require quite a lot of reluctance to speaker because the rate of needlestick injury to hospital staff is reported overseas as being about 15 accidents and per 100 hospital beds. [00:49:30] About 80% of those people are nursing staff. About 10% are theatre staff. Most theatre accidental needle sticks are with potentially contaminated needles, knives and instruments. Now, Mr Speaker, I suppose, one of the things that has come out of the grave concern of the medical profession for the disease AIDS a concern which is very real is at last a guide, which can prevent [00:50:00] needles sticking. So when the needle is being put back into the guard, we have a device which could go over the top. And instead of sticking it into the hand of the doctor or the nurse, it goes through into the guard. In this case, it didn't it banged into the guard, or it can be placed through the hole and the cover put back over the needle. I'm informed that doctors have been asking for a number of years to have something like this put in place to try and combat the effects [00:50:30] of infection from hepatitis B. But it's really taken the concern about the disease, AIDS and the effect that it can have on doctors on nurses on surgical staff to finally have that particular device developed in New Zealand. So I suppose we can say that one good thing has come about this come out of this real concern and perhaps there aren't too many other good things which have come from it. The concern, which is expressed by Mr Wyn Jones, [00:51:00] is that all sexually transmitted diseases STD are transmitted by anal intercourse, as is hepatitis B and a I DS as well, so all can be transmitted by anal intercourse. He notes that syphilis has been almost eliminated from the general population in the United Kingdom. There is only one case of congenital syphilis reported in the last year. There are still 3000 cases [00:51:30] of adult syphilis in the UK, and nearly all of them are male homosexuals and this situation in the country. Without respective legislation against the homosexual, a high proportion of male homosexuals become hepatitis a antigen positive within two years of becoming active as homosexuals AIDS. Both epidemic and endemic parallels the behaviour of hepatitis [00:52:00] B more closely than anything else. No other neither are sexually transmitted and should not be labelled as STD sexually transmitted diseases, AIDS may become endemic in the fashion of hepatitis B, which has become a very real worry in New Zealand. And Mr Speaker, we have had a number of debates in this house showing concern for hepatitis B in some parts of New Zealand, and [00:52:30] obviously there is a very real linkage between hepatitis B and AIDS and homosexuals. Mr Speaker. One of the points that is made in the submission, which was not considered by the committee, was that had the report been brought before the houses of Parliament at a time when a disease such as AIDS faced the country, it is unlikely that it would have been carried because the thrust of that particular [00:53:00] report was sexual. Activity between consenting adults, where no damage was done to anyone else could be accepted by society and quite demonstrably, anal sex. Whether it is homosexual, anal sex or heterosexual anal sex is a major risk of AIDS, and there is a very good reason for that. Mr Speaker, if I could perhaps hold up for the house's benefit and I will table [00:53:30] two photographs and even from the distance, I think most people can get the general thrust of what I'm saying. The one on the left hand side is the thin layer of secretory goblet cells, which line the rectum, and there is a very thin lining, a very thin lining across the top. The second photo is the vaginal masa, which is a tough, thick protective surface. That's it there 20 times [00:54:00] thicker than the lining of the anus. And if I can tell the house what Dr Wyn Jones would have told in a much more professional and accurate way if the committee had been prepared to hear him, the concern that he has is that anal sex, anal sex rather than homosexual activity per se between males. Anal sex is the major cause of AIDS. And for this house to pass legislation at this time, which [00:54:30] gives tacit approval to anal sex until we know more of out ways in which AIDS can be contained, is giving the wrong message to society as a whole. As to our concern about AIDS and our acceptance of a means of making sure that this disease continues. So, Mr Speaker, I hope that those members of the committee and members of the House did not have the opportunity to hear that submission can [00:55:00] take that point because I think it's a very real one that impressed me that a surgeon was prepared to come out to stick his neck out and give some information to the house of a technical nature which, as far as I know, has not been presented as yet. Mr. Speaker, I said earlier in my speech that I do have a concern for the homosexual in New Zealand society and I deplore the way in which the bill has been introduced. I also indicated that I am going to vote [00:55:30] against it in its present form in both stages of the bill. If, however, there was an amendment which recognised that the House cannot give a signal to the people of New Zealand that anal sex is an OK method of sexual intercourse, that it is not OK, certainly at the present time when we are concerned about AIDS and know very little about this disease. If an amendment is brought forward, [00:56:00] that can in some way meet the needs of the homosexual community because not all homosexual acts are related to anal sex, then I would be prepared to consider supporting it. Yes, Mr. Yeah, Mr Speaker, Some [00:56:30] 11 years ago, this house considered an identical measure which was then introduced by the now present member. Well, OK, It dealt with almost similar circumstances by the now president member for wait total. I said in Maori that in May this year I attended the or the annual conference [00:57:00] of the New Zealand Maori Women's Welfare League. They unanimously sir, endorse the proposals contained within this bill. The house will know that on issues such as this, I have canvassed with them such as the adoption bill such as the abortion bill that was in this house. And now this question. [00:57:30] I have come to the conclusion, sir, that given the proverbs that were left by our ancestors and one of them in which I referred to which went like this what is the greatest thing on this earth? Let me tell you, it is people. It is people. It is people. And for that matter, sir, I have chosen that I could not depart from that philosophy [00:58:00] which we have on all occasions. Sir. Followed to the letter. Others in this house have spoken about the question of human rights. I have to accept, sir. And I'm sure all of us must accept married and has enter this position. What I am saying to this house, Mai, as a member of Parliament for Western Maori, [00:58:30] cannot afford to cast those of our people aside who have decided to take that upon themselves as they the Honourable Western in to support the bill. I want to congratulate you. The member who introduced the bill she went through, I believe a traumatic experience. I'm sorry, [00:59:00] but the member for has had his opportunity. If he hasn't, he can get another call during the committee stages. And there's plenty of those opportunities. But I simply want to remind him on one simple fact. Where does he then stand? In terms of the proverb in which I referred to I asked about the proverb. Of course he would know where it came from, and I simply want to say to him, [00:59:30] if he knew what that was all about and where it came from, its origins, I'm sure he had no difficulty with it whatsoever. And I challenge the member to that one because it's one well known in his district and his people, and they are to be admired. And if he's moving away from those principles, then I asked him to think again. I ask him also to consider, sir the position of our people, right at the present time, he well [01:00:00] knows 75% of our people in our urbanite 75% of them, sir, are below the ages of 25. A great number within that age group, sir have now joined this section of the community. And I simply want to say that he cannot deny that I'm not about to deny those people who have chosen that, but to simply say, parliament has been called [01:00:30] on to make judgments and to pass a law that will give those people the right of choice. And I believe that's what we are being asked. I have considered this question for some time, as I said before, it is not the first time that it's been before parliament. And, uh, that, uh, this time around, I think what has been demonstrated is a sign of maturity in this country that we have now for the majority [01:01:00] of people have come to accept it. Uh, Mr, uh, Wellington, the Honourable Mr Wellington, Mr. speaker. I have seldom heard the present minister for Maori affairs and the member for Western Maori. Quite so defensive indeed, sir. Earlier in this debate I call to him and he knows this well. The member for an is getting warmed up. We've heard him [01:01:30] about a week ago and we've forgotten what he said and rightly so. Mr. Speaker, I call to the minister of Maori affairs who is the senior Maori member on the government side and I concede that this he's been congratulated by the member for Mount Albert. I concede that this is a conscience issue, that he, of all members in this chamber on the Maori side of the issue, has the authority [01:02:00] and the prestige and the city authority to speak for the Maori people, particularly Mr Speaker as he has for many years. And I do not include the present year manage the affairs on land of the Maori Queen. No, well, he protests and he says, Oh really, But that is the fact of the matter. I have joined with the member, the minister of Maori affairs [01:02:30] on a number of Mara occasions, for example, at Saint Stephen's, one of the premier Maori colleges and I use that word advisably, for it is primarily a Maori college and one of distinction. And indeed, Mr Speaker, one of prestige and I have enjoyed the member's company and I have enjoyed the comments that he has made [01:03:00] on occasions on that. Mara and I said to him by way of interjection, speak for the Maori people. And I was disappointed with his comments tonight because in essence, they were by way of prevarication. They were ambivalent, They were ambiguous. And I wonder who has been at the Minister of Maori affairs in recent weeks and recent months, who has hammered him into shape. [01:03:30] Is he speaking for the Maori Queen? Is he speaking for the four quarters? It might have a chairman. Yeah, I I'm not Mr Gary. You asked to sit down while I speak the point of order, sir. Pardon? Sit. Just sit down here. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The member has been on the state for some five or six minutes supposedly talking to this bill and he hasn't referred to one [01:04:00] of the bill at all but has referred to the former speaker. I'll ask you to call them to order. I think I can handle this one. I don't think I need to waste the time. It is not true that the honourable members, speaking for the five minutes he's not quite finished his first two minutes just on two minutes. And in any case, I think, as I was understanding his speech [01:04:30] that he was referring to the contribution that was made by the former speaker and answering some of those matters which is quite in order for any member of the house. The Honourable Mr Wellington. Mr. Speaker, I record my disappointment at the contribution from the senior Maori member of this assembly. Well, the member for Taronga says he used to be and that will be proved correct. [01:05:00] Mr Speaker, he he of all people in this chamber has the authority to speak to the Maori people. He did not do that and I ask the question again, Who has been at him? Who has got at him? Does he reflect the view views of the Maori Queen? Does he reflect the views of the four quarters and Mr Speaker every member in this assembly excluding a few [01:05:30] like the member of Glenfield, the member for Glenfield will know what I am referring to. His speech would not go down at all well in the colleges such as Saint Stephen's Queen Victoria. They would not win for no other reason than the simple reason, Mr Speaker, then this bill does not serve in any realistic or practical way the interests of our young people. [01:06:00] Not not at all, not at all, Mr Speaker, calling as it does for the legalisation of homosexual activities from the age of 16 above. Now, Mr Speaker, I mentioned ST Stephen's advisedly for in 1962. I took up a position as a teacher at that particular school, and I assure the member for Western Maori who has a responsibility [01:06:30] as the local member, which he shares with the member for Franklin, that his views would not be tolerated for two minutes on the Maria of ST Stephen's College or at sister school at Queen Victoria in Parnell, Auckland. He would he would be run off the property if he made the speech he has tonight. I'm either of those two my eyes, and I am disappointed. I am disappointed [01:07:00] at the member for Western Maori. I am disappointed at the minister of Maori affairs that he has given the Maori people, the Maori people, such a bad steer and a bad lead in this chamber. Tonight it is 17 minutes to 11. The lights will be out in Saint Stephen's. We'll be out. But Mr Swell, the member for Eden and the member for Tori two extreme liberals, [01:07:30] can well Scott and well, Scott. But they will get their reckoning in due course. In due course. I am disappointed, the member for Western Maori. I am sure Matt Rata, who once sat in here, would be equally disappointed. Mr. Speaker, I am sure the honourable member for southern Maori is bitterly disappointed, bitterly disappointed [01:08:00] her father would be. And well, I make no apology for bringing the honourable member for southern Maori ancestors into this debate because the member for Western Maori, the Minister of Maori affairs, has made a disgraceful contribution to an important debate and he has made such a contribution because he is a minister in the Labour government which happens to embrace this latest [01:08:30] piece of liberalism because because he owes his position in this chamber, he thinks to his mates in the in the Cabinet and the cabinet benches and to his mates on the backbenches. He has a greater loyalty, and that should be to his own people. I want to pay tribute. I want to pay tribute to to the member for to the member, for Invercargill, [01:09:00] to the member for Gisborne and my word. He sits in a marginal seat, and he had the courage to get up, to get up and say, despite the marginality of his electorate, to say this is what I believe in. And the member for Napier, who who tried for various seats for the Labour Party around the country and finally won the seat for Napier. I say good on him and he has the courage to [01:09:30] defy his party on this issue. I know the pressures that have been brought to bear on the member for Gisborne, a marginal seat. A member in a marginal electorate has the courage to say This is what I believe in. This is what I believe. But I, my people, sent me to do not like the member for Western Maori. He's under the whips. He has been brought into line [01:10:00] and he comes out tonight and merely regurgitates the party line. I also pay tribute not only to those four members, but to the people who have backed them. People who have been damned in this house. People who have no right of reply under the panoply of privilege in this parliament. No, but they have been damned in this house as portraying facts, events, [01:10:30] Mr. Speaker, they have no right of reply under the panoply of privilege in this Parliament. People like Keith. Well, there they go again, You see? They damned them. They Scot people like Sir Peter of Well, of course, the member for Eden is in trouble. The member for Eden's in trouble. We heard in Auckland the representations of various [01:11:00] people. The member for Eden, the member for Mount Albert didn't ask a question. Didn't make a comment when the liberals and the lesbians came in. Didn't say a word because they knew very well, Mr Speaker, that if they had, they would have had their argument. And if the member for Mount Eden or Eden or whatever it is, goes on, I shall ask him Where [01:11:30] is Ms? So where is Ms Sori and I suggest that the member for Eden as the member for Hamilton West, advising him keeps his mouth shut. Now, Mr Speaker, I pay tribute to the people who brought the petition before Parliament, the largest petition in this country's history. People who sustained unprecedented attack in this house. [01:12:00] I pay tribute to them, as I do to the four members who back them. Mr Speaker, they have no privilege within the panoply of this particular place. And I'm reminded, as I've listened to the meandering speeches of those who support the bill of the 18th century political philosopher Edmund Burke, who said the concessions of the weak [01:12:30] are the concessions of beer. The concessions of the weak are the concessions of beer. 200 years ago, the honourable Mr he says, I pulled my electorate and my gosh, they say to me, Do it. That is the confession of the week. That is the confession of the week. I have heard of the confession of the member for East Cape. I have [01:13:00] polled my electorate. I thought I was for it. Then I was against it until I polled my electorate. And now I'm for it. What integrity? What integrity? In 1980 the people in my electorate and members on this side of the house will know of that which I speak said to me, said to me on another issue at a different time at an electorate meeting, unless you vote the way we want you to [01:13:30] vote, we will fix you I said. You have sent me to Wellington. If you don't like what I am doing, do that. I'm still here. I am still here. I will not deal with the issue. I will not deal with the event. I will simply say it was the 1980 and after two terms as minister of education, when my two immediate predecessors were shot in their electorates. Labour and national, [01:14:00] I say to the member for East cake. Stick to your guns, I say to the member for stick to your guns, I say to the member for Glenfield, Stick to your guns, do what is right. Do what is right. Don't agree. The dictates of an amorphous mass do what you think is right on conscience issues, and I say to the member for Cap, who polled her electorate, [01:14:30] and I understand either changed her mind or had her mind shored up. God bless her. Stick to your guns because the people out there, the people who brought this petition and people who didn't even sign the petition, perhaps because they didn't have the chance, perhaps because they didn't really want to because they were not seized of the importance of this issue. I say to them, [01:15:00] I say to those members, obey the dictates of what you believe is right on conscience issues when you stand before the supreme body of this country before Parliament. And so the member for oh has changed his mind or something. The member for East Cape certainly has the member for glenfield or whatever the member for cap and so on. The concessions of the weak Mr Speaker, [01:15:30] the concessions of the weak are the concessions of fear. They are fearful of their electoral hides. And what a way to make decisions which affect the people of this country and in particular, Mr Speaker, the young people, the young people. I referred to Saint Stephen's. Earlier, I went to, um as many members in this house did to a boarding school to [01:16:00] a boarding school, and I will tell members, as I did upon the introduction of this bill to introduce this bill with an age fixed at 16, will be to sow not just the seeds but the actuality of discord and dissent in school after school across this country. Yeah, sure, they look [01:16:30] at and I see the minister of Internal affairs there smiling Riley. Is he smiling Riley? Or does he actually agree? Does he actually believe in what I am saying? You see, a 16 year old might be in the fifth book. He might be in the fourth form. And if you say to school after school across this country, boarding school or otherwise, that you can legalise homosexual activity at fourth [01:17:00] form or at fifth form. Or if the young person is pretty bright at sixth form, you will sow the seeds of discord and descent from the far north to the Deep South. Simple as that. And the member, the member for Eastern Marry, the minister of Internal Affairs knows that what I say is dead right. That's why the member for Western Mary has fled this chamber. He's gone. Yeah, [01:17:30] and that's got him worked up that's got worked up even at seven minutes of fear I remind the honourable gentleman that he is not to refer to the presence, or at least to the remove or absence of any member. He understands why members leave the chamber, and it is, uh, to disorderly to refer to a members movements. In that way, [01:18:00] Mr Speaker, the member for West Maori, has sub departed on urgent public business. I concede that, Mr Speaker, and I don't blame him. I don't blame him. I talked about Burke's comment on the concessions of those that are fearful. Burke also said a thing that may look specious in theory. Might might look good in theory on the statute books in the textbook, but [01:18:30] but be ruinous, be ruinous in practise. And that, Mr Speaker, is the burden of my argument. A thing may look specious in theory, but be ruinous in practise. And let me just add to that. It's if this thing, this bill brought in by the junior government whip was, of course, the alpha and Omega [01:19:00] of human male and female relationships. What is it that gives the member for Wellington Central in New Zealand a monopoly on human wisdom? In 1985 1 of the What is it, Mr Speaker? That gives her a monopoly on human wisdom in 1985 and the member for Hamilton West is discomforted one thing. Politics, politics and political fortunes [01:19:30] come and go. One thing is certain in the political life of this country within two years, and that is that the member for Hamilton West is gone. He is finished as a representative in this house. He is history. He is ancient history before his term has finished. It is as simple as that. So is the member for Mount Albert. So is the member for Wellington Central. So [01:20:00] are all those fair weather friends of everybody and everything who change their minds and have polls and say I will make up my mind when I see what my constituents think. The people of this country know with Burke a long time ago that a thing may look specious and theory, but be ruinous and practise If it were not so. Mr Speaker, why hasn't some enlightened law maker brought this measure down 20 [01:20:30] years ago? 30 years ago? 40 years ago? Half a century ago, five years ago? Two years ago, and had it passed in this chamber? Why not? Why not? Because Because of course, the theory is specious and the practise is ruinous. And and the vast bulk, the vast bulk of the people of New Zealand know that know that and above all, have a suspicion of measures that are brought into this [01:21:00] place under the guise of being private members. Bills but in fact are brought in by government whips by government whip. The member for Hamilton West says, Here we go. And that is why, apart from the member for nature, the honourable Lady for Southern Maori and the member for Gisborne, they've all been whipped into line. And look at the timing of the measure. Mr Speaker, look at the timing of it when the economy was going down, [01:21:30] when the ANZUS debate and a few others in foreign policy were warming up. Then comes the junior government whip, where the private members Berlin says, Well, we'll take the minds of the people of this nonsense. Unfortunately, it is not nonsense. These are weighty and serious matters. They were foreshadows two centuries ago by people like Edmund Burke, and the people of succeeding generations were warned by Burke [01:22:00] and others not to go down this particular road and other roads of light description. It is as simple as that. Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have heard a lot about rights, the rights to do this, or the right to do this and the right to do that. I have heard nothing about responsibilities, not a thing about responsibilities. Let's [01:22:30] forget the adult population of this country. And let's think about the 16 year olds, the 15 year olds, the 17 year olds, the three quarters of a million New Zealanders in primary, intermediate and secondary school throughout New Zealand. What about their rights? OK, like your point of order, is it? Well, what is it? I'm trying. No, I haven't. [01:23:00] I haven't rang the bell yet. You haven't rung the bell. What? What? I? I haven't I haven't cooked. I under I understood under standing orders that the, uh, a speaker on his feet was entitled to go to the A lot of time which historically has been announced. And no bell has been run. And they like a Jack in the box. It was probably I think they were reading [01:23:30] my hand signs over the time. There was five seconds left at that point. And I have not rung the bill. Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have heard nothing from the proponents of this measure about the responsibilities of people, especially for the order. Order, Order! Order! Speech is over. The time has come for should now leave the chair. [01:24:00] This debate is there will be continued Next sitting. Sit down for continuation Next sitting day. Uh, the house is adjourned until 2:30 p. m. tomorrow.

IRN: 909
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TITLE: Parliament: second reading debate - Homosexual Law Reform Bill (16 October 1985) - part 1
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VOICES: Bruce Townshend; Helen Clark; Judy Keall; Noel Scott; Phil Goff; Philip Burdon; Rex Austin; Trevor de Cleene
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bruce Townshend; Helen Clark; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Judy Keall; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Noel Scott; Parliament buildings; Phil Goff; Philip Burdon; Rex Austin; Trevor de Cleene; Wellington; equality; homosexual; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; human rights; law; politics
DATE: 16 October 1985
YEAR: 1985
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from parts of the debate during the second reading of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill, 16 October 1985 (part 1 of 2).
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Of the tea adjournment. I had canvassed the question of the impact of this new disease of AIDS on the wider community and also the responsibility of this parliament to have a moral conscience on doing the right thing in the homosexual law reform bill to ensure that it does not become a plague on our society and having canvassed that and [00:00:30] other issues in relation to the removal of the provisions in the bill on the Human Rights Act, which I see as being premature in that New Zealand is endeavouring to lead the world in this field, I also see a need to raise the age for males beyond 16 years. The member for PATA is reported as having [00:01:00] said in the second reading that he felt that this was I'm sorry that he felt that this was male chauvinism. If we should have a different age for young male adolescents as compared with girls, I suggest there are three very good reasons why we should consider in this house. Raising the age first is that the physical and sexual development of girls is acknowledged to be at least a year [00:01:30] and a half ahead of that of their male counterparts At 16 Mr Speaker, girls have much more at risk in that if they wish to move, move into the world of sexual activity and also with the risk of pregnancy, they have an inbuilt deterrent to consider their position. Conversely, the adolescent male at 16, [00:02:00] he has nothing at risk. He is prepared to experiment. And if there is a propensity towards homosexual activities, something which I do not condone or encourage, then I do not see it as desirable within the provisions of a new law which will be put in place to make that legal. Hence, I will be supporting a proposed amendment by the member for Pendleton [00:02:30] to see the age in the bill raised. I will at this stage be voting against the second reading with the desire to see the human rights leg provision removed. And at this point, Mr Speaker, I could inform the house that there are other members and in particular the member for Tarara, who on these issues holds very parallel views to myself as legislators. [00:03:00] Unfortunately, he is not available. He's away on urgent public business, looking after some of the plights of the farmers and horticulture in this in in, uh, around the country, which this government has put them in in in a very, very difficult position. But as legislators, Mr Speaker, it is very, very easy for us to have a general criticism on a selected group of society. And while from our own particular perspective of morality, [00:03:30] we may disapprove of a principle or disapprove of their activities, I would invite the house to take back the responsibility. Each one of them has to a personal basis, a personal basis as legislators that while it is very easy to be critical of the individual or a group or a minority or an activity, But if you had a situation in your own family or personal contacts, and let me assure the house [00:04:00] that I am not plagued with that problem and I am grateful for it. If we knew of a close contact who has known inherited a problem of strong homosexual tendencies through hormonal or metabolic imposition, which nature has put upon them and it's not always corrected, correctable like many claim it can be, then I think it puts a little different perspective on our attitude, [00:04:30] whether we wish to make them criminals or not, Mr. Speaker, while voting against the second reading of the bill, let me assure this house that I intend to do what I feel is best. And I hope there will be some more evidence come forward on this question of AIDS and the further debate we should have, because it's a very, very important issue for the 33,000 people in my electorate and the 3. 3 million in the country. We must, as a parliament, adopt a broad perspective in producing workable [00:05:00] and sensible legislation. And finally, Mr Chairman, if I can just give a short resume of one of the most touching letters I had from the many hundreds that have come to me over the term that this issue has been publicly debated. And it came from a woman in a very quiet corner of my electorate who said the finest man in the world that I ever met was a homosexual. I married him. I endeavoured to work [00:05:30] through a marriage. He has stood by me and done right through his whole life. But due to his orientation, we could never, ever overcome that difficulty, she said. I am now 74. She said don't make a criminal law. Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate all the members of the house who have so far participated in this debate for myself. I find it one of the most [00:06:00] pleasing aspects of this chamber. That on a debate on a social conscience matter, the quality of the debate usually rises and indeed has and that people can fulfil the democratic and constitutional process that the House of Parliament was originally designed for. And that is for individual expression of a democratic opinion on matters pertaining to the people over which they seek to govern. Can I just say to the member for Kai to whom I have listened, that I would urge him to change on the fact that he [00:06:30] would vote against the second reading of this bill? Because, in my view, the bill should have a second reading. So the very matters that he put before the house tonight could be the subject of committee hearing and and then at the vital stages of the bill Could the individual consciences of the people in this house really find their way into the voting chambers? and that though we will have a better bill, even in whatever shape or form, it eventually passes, because I'm sure some of it [00:07:00] will. We will have a better bill if it passes the second reading. And I'm saying to the member for Kama, for whom I have respect. And indeed, I say, as a member on this side of the government benches, I have respect for all the members of this house, particularly when they are voting on a conscious matter. And I urge him to depart from voting against the second reading of the bill. Now, Sir, I am speaking as a member of parliament but also as a lawyer with some considerable experience of acting for people [00:07:30] that whether God nature or something else designed in a different way or had a different proclivity in life on sexual orientation than perhaps mine or somebody else's. But, sir, I am reminded of the famous passage in the rabbit of over when it was said the nun will answer to let their spike a vessel of most ungainly shape. They sneer at me for leaning all What [00:08:00] did the hand of the potter then shake? I am the last person that wishes to be judgmental. I have thought not to speak in this debate, but I'm saying now that I am because I would have otherwise avoided what is the necessity that I owe to my constituents and the people of this country that I am forced to exercise a matter that I would rather not be brought before the house in this particular time. But I commend the member for Central for her courage [00:08:30] in putting it and making us exercise the conscience. Now, sir, I want to say to you, and I want to read into the history of the hands out here a little. The history of this this matter that prior, sir, to 9 to 15 33 the felony and the common law of England recognised no matter at all in derogation of what a person male or female wanted to do in a sexual orientation, [00:09:00] it was left to the ecclesiastical court. Later on in this speech, I am going to say that that's basically where we still are. But to the lawyers of the House and anybody listening tonight, who is a lawyer, I remind them that the law of this country today sprang not only from the historic common law of which the Anglo Saxons were proud, but from basically Henry the eighth's abolition of the religious aspects of the ecclesiastical courts. And so we found [00:09:30] that there was a bill passed in the 16th century that said that the abominable vis had been dealt with exclusively by the ecclesiastical courts. And now that the offence of buggery was to be made a criminal offence under the Law of England. Thus for most of the evolution of mankind, the people that have suffered from the criminal law at present did not suffer until the 16th century, when we brought it out of the roar of God into the law of man. Now [00:10:00] so I repeat to this house that it was only then buggery. You could do what you want between relationships after even that. And so long as it wasn't buggery which was defined as an act with an animal, a woman or a man. It was not an offence, but indeed, sir, following that act, if you did it, then you are entitled to be burnt at the stake and some people will or had been, I hope not well after this, And that's the some of the members that have spoken in this house really get their way, [00:10:30] or that some of the people that have visitors from overseas on the grounds that they represent on a moral point of view would have them do the same, do the same as we did in the 16th century. I am not one of those. The death penalty was finally abolished in 18 61. Consensual homosexual acts other than buggery remain legal. Total prohibition was only in 18 85 and one of the people that suffered from that act was probably one of the greatest literary [00:11:00] geniuses ever to grace the English stage Oscar Wild and in the famous action against the of Queensbury, well known for other pugilistic activities. But in acting for the love of his son Oscar Wilde, who wrote such things as The Picture of Dorian Grey, the Essays on Socialism, one of the great literary greats of our whole heritage, was in fact tried and died in poverty. The only thing I can say about it that if accident of nature and the criminal law can do anything, he wrote the ballad of [00:11:30] reading jail before he died and that itself. I view as one of the great literary masterpieces and heritage of the English language. Now, Sir, those acts came into New Zealand law after we became Dominion status. Frankly speaking, the act against homosexuals had only come in at a late hour of the period of Parliament when she moved an amendment to an act basically designed to stop the prostitution of women and young girls. It came into a law against us as an accidental matter, [00:12:00] aside from buggery and other things. What I'm saying to the members who oppose this bill is this that, fundamentally, the act of criminal homosexuality did not derive from the common law of England that we inherit our marvellous system from it derived from an act and a sin against God as it was seen by the ecclesiastical courts. I have no argument at all with the fact that some members of this [00:12:30] chamber, Mr Speaker and a lot of people in this country should regard it as an act against God. And God can sit in judgement when they have shuffled off this mortal coil. The members of this generally that they render under Caesar. What is Caesar's under God, What is God? And they do not exercise a moral judgement in a criminal sense against their fellow human beings. [00:13:00] I am no stranger to the Bible written in this version of ST James, your former predecessor, sir, in Sir Richard House. And I had tremendous respect for as a speaker of this house if I ever quoted the wrong edition of the Bible. He pulled me up later and said, Trevor, that's not the ST James version. But however, people view this criminal law today. It came into the courts because of an act against God, not against man and the criminal law. And [00:13:30] now, in much of the hula Balloo with which it has been attacked in New Zealand, we find that people regarding themselves as having the word of God on their side, and that, to me, is a very, very onerous burden. Indeed, I am not being jocular, sir, and I take I believe that the members who honestly believe that are to be treated with the greatest respect. I think the people that take that view may be right. I may be wrong, but it is not an onus As a member of this [00:14:00] house that I'm prepared to speak upon. At least I too should end up at the judgmental seat. And someone says to me that the greatest sin upon earth is to assume the burden of God and judge your fellow human beings when that is best left to the maker, when it is a sin against him. Basically speaking, sir, I'm saying that as long as they don't hurt anyone, as long as they leave the kids alone and that's the evidence, I couldn't give a damn what they do as long as they don't scare the [00:14:30] horses. Now, I am not being jocular in that fashion. I'm simply not being morally judgmental on my fellow human beings. Now, sir, if we decriminalise and I shall vote for the decriminalisation of this bill, I shall follow the member for Central through the lobbies. What I'm doing is re is removing from a criminal act of the in this country something that it has historically in all other sense been an offence in ecclesiastical [00:15:00] jurisdiction. Upon that, I offer no opinion. If the people in this chamber that think they're right, then God bless them. There's only one person that can tell them that. And I've had no great advocate coming back from the other side to convince me who was right and who was wrong. But I am saying I'm not with the people that I've known and I've acted for in the past prepared to say that what is right for a woman and was never an offence. And in England in 1921 [00:15:30] a private member's bill was brought before the house to make unnatural acts as it was called. And I'm not again saying what's unnatural. I am not a person saying what is normal. I don't frankly know what is normal or unnatural. I know what I accept within myself as a natural thing. I know what I regard as normal, but I have not the humanity. As other members of this house have to say that the view I take [00:16:00] on morality is necessarily so correct and so accurate that it must have the force of the laws handed down by God to Moses on the Mount. I have not that humanity, the member for Papakura says. What if it does? Then I shall be punished in another place, just as the other people here may be punished in another place, but not before the courts of this country, for an act which is permitted and legalised between women. And if it's good [00:16:30] enough for the girls, In my opinion, it's good enough for the boy. I am a person that believes in equality of the sexes. I know there are some of the women, the great compatriots in this chamber that don't think I display with the vehemence and enthusiasm that some of them do. But I am saying to you that I was brought up by a mother, a Scottish woman. McDonald was a name before she married Willie De Clean, and she drilled me on the fact that not only were women equal, but basically they were [00:17:00] superior. If you fought it out with Old Mary to clean, you survive and which makes me a survivor in this world. But the one thing she taught me and I learned at her knee was all people that walk on two legs and speak in a gut or tongue are human beings. You don't have to drink with them, my old dad said. You don't if you don't like them, have to be with them. But for God's sake and he use that expression, don't judge them. If the Lord is omnipotent [00:17:30] and created all people, then in fact, the Lord must, by definition, for those they created the very people that are attacked by some members in this chamber who is the sinner and who is the symbol, If that be the case, I'm not urging it as a matter. But my logical mind says to me that if the Lord is omnipotent, then he could have fixed all this up in one flash of a pan. Now, leaving that aside, it is not a matter for the criminal law, [00:18:00] I may say the 1921 act that was brought in or tried to be brought in in the United Kingdom, Jurisdiction to alleviate or to say that lesbians should be subject to the criminal law was thrown out on the basis of the Lord's submission that if you let women know about it, they'd be encouraged by it. Goodness gracious, me. Uh, advertisement has occurred in this country up and down. I'm not, in the words of Karen Hay, with whom I debated against Shad, [00:18:30] Bob and Scott and McCormick and in Karen's hay word. Not going to make it compulsory, I say to the member for Napier, who made a brilliant speech and the one I respected in this Napier and Karen Hay's own words again in the debate. I wasn't going to ram this homosexual law reform down my throat. I am merely asking for tolerance, and that brings me to the next point. Have ever I preached any doctrine to the democracy of this country. It is the doctrine of tolerance and respect [00:19:00] for your fellow human beings. The scenes that occurred outside of moral judgement in this house shocked me, turned my mind back to the Nazi members of Nuremberg in 1933 crap, someone says it certainly was, and there were brown shirts out there to prove it on both sides. The fact that people should line up in uniform, sing hymns, fly the flag and say, God's on my side. During the war, God was on the Nazi side. There were Christians there. [00:19:30] God was on the Russian side. God's on everyone's side. You can get out of the Bible. Any argument you can get out of the New Zealand law reports, if you're the advocate for it, but tolerance and mercy, I've always taken from the Bible. Mr. Speaker, I don't want to bring you into this debate, but I know you're a person a Christian. I'm not saying well, I am, but I can say this to you that I read incessantly. The fact that there is a virtue of tolerance preached to us from the word go. And I wish that some of the people that would Bible [00:20:00] Bash would simply look up the other quotations that can be got in differing ways. I find the fact that some fellow called Pastor Sheldon or something was he came out here, got his photograph on the front of the New Zealand Times, lounging back in leather tall, high knee boots with high heels, telling New Zealand women what they should and shouldn't do about abortion. What homosexual shouldn't shouldn't do about that. My word, Mr Speaker, I'm afraid they reminded me of an extremism [00:20:30] that is anti democratic and an intolerance that I will not have in this country. And if there's anything to be aware of in this debate, it is the fact that it's brought out in New Zealanders, a hidden thing that must have been there all the time. I do not accept the other side at that same debate. People on the other side of the fence had an extremism that in my view, should not exist either. It has brought us into a virtual war of moral opposition. All I'm preaching to this [00:21:00] house tonight and to the people of New Zealand is this that of all the great things in this democracy, it is that of Voltaire. I do not believe what the person says, but I will defend my life, their right to say it equally. I do not believe that the common law of this country or the statutory law of crimes should enter into the bed. What people do there with consent is a matter between adult consenting males for their business. [00:21:30] The fact that someone else should exercise a moral judgement, send a policeman creeping up a private drive to peer through a blind to see what was happening. To get evidence and I've had cases like that is to me simply a waste of time with the police force and anyone that's prepared to do that. I say it's just got a damn dirty mind. Because what I've always worried about in this fact is that the people that protest too much like Shakespeare, me thinks, have a lot to protest about. What particular conscience are they trying to serve in [00:22:00] trying to flatulate people that have a different point of view? Now, I as a lawyer, when I retire from this house or get booted out, whichever is the earlier will go back and defend the people of the ungodly I Joly call them but the people who have sinned against the law. But I do not want to go back as a criminal lawyer and have to defend people in a court that were minding their own goddamn business and their own goddamn house and their own goddamn time to use the Reverend Sheldon's, which [00:22:30] was brought by him at some expense to the people in this country from America. Now, sir, what I'm saying is that the New Zealand nation is better than that. Most countries in the world have decriminalised that I intend to vote for the decriminalisation. I intend to stick with the age of 16, not because I don't bear what the member for Kim, I said with some weight. But because in logic, I can't say what's good enough for the women is necessarily bad for the men. And if 16 has got to be the age of consent and [00:23:00] that may be another matter, then I intend to vote for it. I want to reserve my right and hear more speaking on the question of the human rights matter. But even then, the more I see that extremism and intolerance which has existed in this country, the more I'm driven to the fact that Sir, the only way to squash this matter entirely is to make it decriminalised size 16, and that people that walk as human beings upon this earth have the same human rights as anything anybody else. And sir, while [00:23:30] I'm not saying quite frankly on it, but the more we get into extremism, the more I've been driven with the logic of the legal mind to the fact that if it's not to be criminal, then people have a right to the human dignity of equality with everyone else in this country, Mr Speaker and Rising to speak to the homosexual law reform bill. I wish to commence by emphasising my respect for the sincerity of the arguments presented by both sides of the House. In particular, I draw attention [00:24:00] to the deep and profound sincerity of the concern on the one hand of the member for Haki in his opposition to the bill and on the other hand, the arguments in favour of the bill presented by the MP for CAP. There have been many other equally sincere speeches and I regret the way in which certain members have attempted to personalise and belittle the beliefs that are quite clearly, very sincerely and honestly held by other members. I wish to disassociate myself from the ridicule and contempt that has been reflected [00:24:30] by some for the 800,000 strong petition of those opposed to the bill, regardless of whether or not you agree with the objectives of the petition, The reality is that irrespective of even a substantial number of errors, it is a reflection of deep concern in society, and to that extent it deserves responsible and concerned attention, which it clearly has not had from some of the more radical supporters of the proposed legislation. I do not propose to attempt to [00:25:00] review in any detail the confused and troubled history of this legislation. Rather, I wish to foreshadow my intention to introduce an amendment to the homosexual law reform bill that will raise the age legalising homosexual acts between consenting adults from the proposed age of 16 to 20 years of age. This amendment will be supported by a significant number of my colleagues who believe that there is justification for a very [00:25:30] much more limited reform than the radical and over dramatic reform proposed by the member for Wellington Central and supported by many of her colleagues. I invite the member for Palmerston North to listen very carefully as I fear that he has prejudged some of our reasons for purely clinical reasons. We believe it is wrong to legalise sodomy from the age of 16, which would be a direct consequence of the passing of this bill. Regardless of the moral considerations, [00:26:00] sodomy should be strongly discouraged. Sodomy or annual intercourse is a very dangerous act for health reasons, and society has an obligation to attempt to protect the young from a practise that carries very severe health risks. It is clearly shown that the incidence of sexually transmitted diseases is very high for those who engage in sodomy. It certainly appears that the absorption of semen via the rectum could critically suppress [00:26:30] the body's immune system and so account for a particular for the particular phenomena of aid in the homosexual. Certainly it appears that the gay bowel syndrome, which together with the increased incidence of sexually transmitted diseases may be central to the AIDS phenomenon, is occurring because of the unbelievably crude acts performed between homosexuals, which the general public appear to be oblivious of. I do not believe it is in any way in the public interest to [00:27:00] allow 16 year old boys or girls to be legally sodomised, even though they may purportedly consent to the act to pass laws requiring people to wear seatbelts, while at the same time allowing 16 and 17 year olds to be solemnised as a sad reflection of society's priorities in respect of health care. Accordingly, I believe that if people wish to solemnise one another, they should be permitted to do so only after they have clearly reached [00:27:30] full maturity and will have had ample opportunity to understand the dramatic health risks that such an activity involves them in Mr Speaker. For this reason, I believe that 20 is an appropriate age for society to accept that it is no longer appropriate for society to protect the individual from himself. By the age of 20 society ceases to be entitled to claim an educative role and must rather let the individual take his place [00:28:00] in society. Subject to all the usual constraints of consent and public decency, I now wish to briefly refer to the philosophic argument. I deeply believe in the rights and freedoms of the individual and respect the right of the of the adults in our society to conduct his or her life with minimum interference from the state. I accept that the state has the right to educate and protect the individual. However, I cannot support the continued imposition [00:28:30] of criminal sanctions against the adult homosexual, as I do not believe it is the role of the state to impose public morality on the community by enshrining it in law. Clearly, Mr Speaker, what people do in the privacy of their own home, however morally and physically obnoxious it may be to the ordinary citizen is their own affair. so long as the participating parties do so in the full knowledge and with the mutual consent of one another. Clearly, I believe society [00:29:00] has an educative role for strictly health reasons because of the uniquely dangerous, dangerous nature of certain homosexual acts until the age of 20 which is the reason for distinguishing homosexuality from heterosexual acts after the age of 20 society must accept the right of the individual to conduct his life according to his own particular personal values. We do not allow Children under the age of 15 to smoke or people under [00:29:30] the age of 18 to go into public baths. Likewise, for public health reasons and for the same reason, we accordingly believe that 16 is too young to allow sodomy to be indulged in. In addition to these reasons, I should also emphasise that I totally reject the argument that the present law should remain as is because it represents a constraint on homosexual activity. I accept that the present law is totally hypocritical in so far as we have criminal sanctions that [00:30:00] are clearly not enforced. I believe it is wrong to ever subscribe to a situation where we allow the law to be perceived as a token discipline. If we acquiesce and abusing the integrity of the law, then ultimately we bring the whole rule of law into disrepute. This may seem to be a rather too purist an argument, but it is another reason why there is a compelling argument for legalising homosexual acts between consenting adult males over the age of 20. [00:30:30] Accordingly, Mr Speaker, I foreshadow my intention with the anticipated support of a significant number of my colleagues to introduce an amendment that will raise the age legalising homosexual acts between consenting adults for the proposed from the proposed age of 16 to 20 years of age, and to further advise that we will not be supporting Part two of the bill. Mr. Speaker, a group of us who will support the second reading do so only to pursue the narrow reform I have [00:31:00] outlined. None of us support the bill as it stands. Judy Keel, Mr Speaker, For me, this is a very difficult speech. I feel that it's a speech which directly relates to my fellow human beings as to whether they are criminals or not. And I know that tonight I'm speaking for people who are personal friends of mine people [00:31:30] in every walk of life, many of them very ordinary working people, other people in the professions lawyers, doctors, policemen and women policemen. But women are involved, of course, in the second part of the bill with the removing the discrimination, teachers, trade union officials. And these people are my personal friends. And I know that for a very, very long time they have wanted this change in the law. [00:32:00] They have wanted a change for homosexual men that the law should be decriminalised. And they have wanted a change in the law. So that no longer will gay people be discriminated against in areas of their housing, their employment and various goods and services. I know that it is very important for them that this bill should be passed. I support this bill in its entirety. [00:32:30] Mr. Speaker and I come to to this position of support from a background, which is, uh, a traditional Christian one. I was brought up in a Presbyterian home. My father, a Presbyterian minister. I am a woman deeply committed to the welfare of the family. And I am a member of parliament who sat through many hours of the parliamentary select committees [00:33:00] which heard the evidence for this bill. In fact, I sat through every single sitting of the Statutes Revision Committee on this bill and three sittings of the Law and Justice Committee, along with the member for Hamilton West and the member for Well, for Wellington Central. I think I would have heard the most submissions and I. I am most impressed by the weight of submissions in favour of decriminalisation. [00:33:30] I believe the bill has had a fair hearing. Nearly 60% of the submissions heard supported the bill and out of the 85 submissions not heard. 63 support the bill and most of those people of Britain saying they're happy for the bill to be reported back and proceed through the house. Mr. Speaker, I believe the criminal law should not punish private consenting behaviour. It should only prescribe behaviour which occa [00:34:00] which occasions positive harm. This bill decriminalises homosexual acts between consenting male adults in private and I do believe that the law has no business to have any any control over what consenting adults do in private. The law should be concerned for protecting people from harm for keeping order in our society, where [00:34:30] people are doing something quietly in the privacy of their home, they are harming no one. This law does not allow the molestation of Children. It does not allow sexual acts in public. It does not allow soliciting. In fact, it strengthens the law against those who should seek to have a sexual relationship with a boy under the age of 16, putting a penalty of 17 to 14 years on that activity. The second part of the bill. [00:35:00] It includes those of homosexual orientation or perceived to be of homosexual orientation amongst those against whom one should not discriminate. It's very important here to emphasise that we're talking about homosexual orientation. We're not talking about homosexual behaviour. I fear that a number of people who have spoken in this debate so far are getting muddled on the actual provisions of the bill. In Part two, [00:35:30] there is nothing here about homosexual behaviour, simply about those of homosexual orientation or perceived to be of homosexual orientation. The bill is exceedingly conservative in this area, and it is strictly specifying the categories of employment, accommodation and provision of goods and services. Judy Keel, Linfield the North Shore and the member for Remuera, who seemed to have a very enlightened [00:36:00] approach to the problem of homosexual people. As far as discrimination was concerned, to look again at this part of the bill and to look at the submission made by the legal faculty of Victoria University that very clearly, I think pointed out what this part of the bill was doing. It is not prescribing attitudes. You can still think what you like as far as, um, as that goes. But it is talking about [00:36:30] discrimination against somebody's homosexual orientation and the provision of good service and services, employment and and their accommodation. And I think that it would be very important to pass this part of the bill so that people have to look again at the way they are discriminating against their fellow human beings. Mr. Speaker, homosexuality is not a disease or an illness, but a valid form of behaviour. The [00:37:00] Health Department, uh, submission, uh, very clearly stated this and I want to read briefly from it. The Health Department said homosexuality is no longer generally considered within the medical and other health professions to be a disease. Increasingly, it has come to be viewed as a psychosexual variant, one of a number of possible sexual orientations. This was given expression when, after 1973 the board of directors of the American [00:37:30] Psychiatric Association removed the classification of homosexuality from its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of mental disorders. This manual is increasingly accepted as the standard reference for the clinical classification of mental disorders, and it is not in that in that manual, Mr Speaker, the development of homosexual orientation is not a matter of individual choice. In the committee, we heard no [00:38:00] one cause of homosexual homosexuality, but it was very clear that in any given time or place, there appear to be approximately 5 to 10% of homosexuals. There was research given to the committee from many reputable sources showing this regardless of how homosexuals come to be that way, and regardless of the law, they always appear to be about the same number of them. Obviously, there are some geographic areas where the [00:38:30] the percentage is higher towards the 10% area in the cities in a small provincial town where social attitudes do not accept homosexual behaviour, particularly under the present law, you would not be so likely to get the higher percentage. The Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists, the Mental Health Foundation, the New Zealand Society and Sexology all gave very strong submissions giving evidence and research on these matters. [00:39:00] It's interesting Mr Speaker, to look at the law in other countries from the way some people have been opposing this bill. You would think that New Zealand was was leading in this matter. But in actual fact, we are following. Most other Western countries of our sort of lifestyle have already decriminalised or some of them have never had a law against homosexual acts at all. Britain decriminalised in 1967 [00:39:30] In Sweden there is the same age 15 for heterosexuals and homosexuals. Norway, 16 for both. France has the same age for both. I'm not sure what it is. Denmark 15 for both. Austria has has decriminalised at 19 federal Federal Republic of Germany. At 18. Italy has never had a law against homosexual acts. Netherlands. It's the same age at 16 for for for both heterosexuals and homosexuals. Belgium. 18 [00:40:00] for homosexual 16 for heterosexuals, Spain. It's the same age. I think it's 12. There are 25 United American states that have decriminalised in Australia. New South Wales has Decriminalised capital Territory 18 for both heterosexual and homosexual behaviour. South Australia 17 for both. It's interesting that South Australia, which decriminalised in 1972 has not had one case of AIDS. [00:40:30] Some prominent countries which have not decriminalised are the Soviet Union, Romania, South Africa, Chile and the Republic of Ireland. I think that speaks for itself, Mr. Speaker, I believe that everyone has the need for to give or receive physical affection or to give and receive physical affection. I believe that there are some people who do choose to deny this need and become [00:41:00] celibate. But I do not see why that I do. I think this should be from their personal choice and not out of legal necessity. Homosexual males are members of families, sons or husbands. Mr. Speaker, I want to now address one of the one of the the, um, most common um arguments used against the spill that it will cause the breakdown of the family. Some of the people who brought submissions [00:41:30] to our committee were concerned about tension in a marriage situation where the husband turned out to be homosexual. They gave us, uh, evidence of suicides which had occurred in in difficult marriage relationships or where one of the family had, um the son and the family had, um, being found to be homosexual. But, Mr Speaker, I have to point out that that is under the present law. The very, very sad [00:42:00] thing that we have to face is that while we have a law which says that homosexual acts are criminal, that there will be many, uh, men in our society who will feel socially pressured to enter into a heterosexual relationship Judy many young men in a family situation who will feel that they cannot actually explain to their family how they feel different. And I feel that the member for very, very [00:42:30] um uh, exceedingly well described this problem when she explained the situation that had occurred with a friend of hers and when her son had actually ended up committing suicide because he felt he couldn't explain his lifestyle to his family. I feel that if the law is decriminalised, we are going to remove part of that problem. It won't be a change overnight, but hopefully social attitudes will change there and men will be able to develop stable [00:43:00] homosexual relationships rather than having the tension and the strain and the upset of trying to be heterosexual And it not working out, I have to say again that homosexuals are part of family, so there are many different types of families. I see nothing wrong in two homosexuals living together and setting up their own family life in a stable relationship. Surely that is better than pros, promiscuous relationships and on the and I would [00:43:30] like to say that in in my ideal society, we would actually, uh, be accepting of different cultures, of different races and of different lifestyles. The most frightening thing is to look back at Nazi Germany and to see how so many millions of Jews were killed. And almost, I think, at a conservative estimate a quarter of a million homosexual people were killed [00:44:00] under that regime. And when I hear the sort of arguments that are being made against that bill, I see the same sort of regime being encouraged where people's views are imposed where there is intolerance of people with differing lifestyles. The age is another question and point as far as this bill is concerned. I think it is difficult to sustain an argument [00:44:30] for a higher age of consent in a situation where two individuals are morally responsible for their actions and consenting to their actions. After all, 16 is the age of carnal knowledge for young women, and it is the age at which a young man and a young woman presently are allowed to marry. I believe that if this is the present law that we we should decriminalise homosexual acts at at 16 2 [00:45:00] another. Another thing that many opponents of the bill fear is the spread of AIDS. I have to point out, Mr Speaker, that the spread of AIDS, unfortunately, has very little to do with the processes of the law. You only need to look at two American states which have very high figures. Um, the rate of of, um, of figures for people who have got AIDS. One is California [00:45:30] and the other is Florida. But in California, the law has been decriminalised in Florida. It is still illegal to, uh, take part in homosexual acts. The law really has very little, um, bearing in that situation because, uh, the AIDS had come to that area before there were any changes in the law. However, as I pointed out earlier in South [00:46:00] Australia, where UM, the law was changed relatively recently and education has been able to take place in a more open way, there have been no cases of AIDS and I would like to congratulate the AIDS Foundation in New Zealand on the excellent work that they have done, um, amongst the gay community and educating them about the, uh, the dangers of AIDS and point to the fact that the statistics, um, recent statistics [00:46:30] show a great decrease in the number of sexually transmitted diseases. And I believe if this bill is passed, that education programme will be easier. Mr. Speaker, In the end, all of us must vote according to our conscience. But I would plead with members of this house to give this bill a second reading so that we can further the arguments on some of the areas where some members are [00:47:00] still uncertain. And I would plead with the member for Kaim Mai, particularly to to vote for the second reading so that his constituent, um who does not want her husband any longer to be called a criminal will have, uh, a a further chance for this bill to be passed. Mr. Speaker, how can what two consenting adult males do in the privacy of their own home have any detriment mental effect on society? I'm confident it will not hurt any of the [00:47:30] people I know my, my family, my Children, any of those that I love. I plead with this house to vote for this bill in the interests of humanity and equality. Yes, Mr Garth, Speaker, I, like many others, have carefully considered the evidence and arguments put forward on this bill, and it's my intention to support the bill in its present form. That is not a decision [00:48:00] that I have arrived at suddenly, as has as have others. I have given thought to the issues involved in homosexual law reform over a period of time, which in fact, predates this particular legislation. The issue was raised on occasion in my electorate over two election campaigns. At that point, I made it clear to my electorate that I would support a measure to reform what I regarded [00:48:30] and regard as outdated criminal legislation on homosexuality. This is not an issue on which the vote is taken along party lines. It's a so-called conscience issue on which each MP must exercise his or her own judgement opinion in my own electorate, as all others is divided. Inevitably, there will be people in my [00:49:00] electorate who will not endorse my decision on this particular issue. Unlike other members, I have not taken a formal poll of electorate opinion, I believe, and share this belief with the member for Tamaki that a decision should be based on the merits of the arguments and not simply by counting heads. An MP is elected to exercise his or [00:49:30] her judgement on issues. This does not imply at all that I have ignored or not listened to the views and opinions of all in my electorate. There are those who very sincerely hold an opinion that is different from my own. On this issue, I have answered all correspondence on the on the bill. I have willingly discussed the issue with anyone in my electorate who has sought to raise [00:50:00] it with me. My correspondence, in fact, reflects divided opinion correspondence initially was heavily against the bill quite some time ago. That correspondence has swung to be predominantly in favour of it. My electorate is one that has a reputation for its religious character. However, I must say that the majority opinion of church leaders and regular church [00:50:30] attenders who have spoken to me personally on this issue has overwhelmingly been in favour of reform in reforming the law. It's clear that by now parliament will be following public opinion rather than leading it Ha. Polls have shown consistently that majority support in this country is indeed in favour of reform. The most recent poll suggested 62% in favour [00:51:00] to 33% against, regardless of how the polls read. However, I would repeat the judgement ought to be exercised on the evidence and the logic regarding reform rather than simply on numbers. Fundamentally, the question to be answered by this House is whether personal morality can or should be imposed by law and the threat of criminal sanction. I do not believe [00:51:30] that that is the proper role of the law. I do not believe that the state has any role in prying into the bedrooms of the nation to determine what is acceptable sexual behaviour between consenting adults in private. Each of those words consent, adult and private are important. The bill does not legalise any behaviour which [00:52:00] takes place without consent. Indeed, it imposes strong sanctions against any person forcing their sexual attentions on an unwilling party. It explicitly prohibits and provides penalties for the exploitation of minors and sexual activity with young people under the age of 16. Exactly the same protection is accorded to a minor against homosexual [00:52:30] or heterosexual acts. I believe that protection should be consistently applied. Young men and young women should receive equal protection. Similarly, the bill does not allow explicit sexual behaviour in public. Homosexual and heterosexual acts will equally be governed by the same laws affecting acceptable public behaviour, as is currently the case. Indeed, I strongly [00:53:00] object to receiving through the mail from someone purporting to be a crusader for morality pornographic material regarding homosexuals sent with the suggestion that this is what will inevitably we follow the passing of this bill. That suggestion is inaccurate. I suspect it is dishonest. Nothing in this bill makes legal or acceptable any form of pornography, [00:53:30] whether homosexual or heterosexual. What this bill seeks to remove is a criminal sanction which subjects homosexual behaviour to a penalty of up to 14 years imprisonment. Such a sanction, I believe, is totally inappropriate. And I have heard no member in not even the member for Hauraki even attempt to justify the maintenance of such a sanction [00:54:00] on the statute's books or to have it enforced. World which attempt to enforce such an approach, are countries of the nature of Iran. In this country. That approach is totally out of place. If we as a country were to determine that morality was properly to be imposed by the criminal law, then we should, as they are in Iran, at least [00:54:30] be consistent. Lesbianism, adultery, fornication and any other act deemed to be by some to be immoral should be prescribed. They are not, of course, and nobody seriously suggests that they ought to be. As well as removing criminal sanctions against persons for homosexual behaviour, the bill also seeks to end discrimination against persons on the grounds of their sexual orientation. The orientation [00:55:00] of most people in our society is, of course, heterosexual. For most, homosexuality is not normal for a significant minority. However, a homosexual orientation is normal for those persons. These people have not threatened or harmed society or any other individual in it. To the best of my knowledge, they have nevertheless been persecuted, discriminated against libel, to blackmail [00:55:30] and often subject to physical abuse. There is, regrettably evidence that the emotional wave that is accompanied opposition to this bill has been again to encourage physical violence against homosexuals. Official sanctions against an intolerance of homosexuality has had profound consequences for those whose only offence is that they are homosexual. [00:56:00] People have been forced to live in the shadows. People have been forced to pretend to be other than what they actually are. The result has been unhappiness and misery for thousands of people in this country and for their families. Our society and archaic laws have condemned people to psychological distress. And as we have heard in this house in the course of the debate, sometimes even to suicide, others have been forced [00:56:30] to resort to what I guess has become a stereotype homosexual lifestyle. I do not believe, however, that promiscuity or sexual flamboyance inevitably reflect the aspirations or behaviour of most homosexuals. That may, however, be the lifestyle to which our laws and our society have compelled. Many opponents of the bill fear that acceptance by some by society [00:57:00] that some people have a different sexual orientation will threaten or undermine society. It is further argued by those people that decriminalisation may cause mass conversion of heterosexuals to become homosexuals. Neither point has any basis in logic or in evidence. Most Western Democratic nations have long ago decriminalised homosexual behaviour [00:57:30] between consenting adults in private. Those societies have not been transformed. They have not been damaged by this change. Nor is it true to say that homosexuality inevitably becomes more ostentatious through law reform. I have received warnings from some that New Zealand, if this bill is passed, will become another San Francisco. No evidence exists to [00:58:00] suggest that that city is any more a relevant model for this country than hundreds of other cities in which homosexual behaviour is not a criminal activity. What does stand out, however, is that those countries in which homosexuals are not discriminated against are the same countries whose record of observance of a full range of human rights and tolerance is much higher than [00:58:30] in those nations, often authoritarian, which retain criminal sanctions against homosexual behaviour. On the point about conversion of heterosexuals to homosexuals, I can find no evidence that homosexuality is a choice or even a lifestyle into which one can be seduced. The weight of scientific evidence suggests that sexual orientation is inherent [00:59:00] rather than acquired. The Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists told the select committee that there was strong evidence that the direction of sexuality in almost all people is determined at a preschool age of adolescence was likely to be a major factor in determining subsequent sexuality was not supported by the evidence. I believe [00:59:30] that no person should be persecuted or discriminated against simply on the basis of their sexual orientation. Clause nine of the bill, as the Law faculty of Victoria University told the Select committee, will not coerce people into accepting behaviour or activities of which they disapprove. The public right to disagree with or criticise homosexual behaviour is unaffected by [01:00:00] this bill. The bill, however, does mean that a person's right to employment to housing or to the provision of essential goods and services should not be affected simply because of their particular sexual orientation. I cannot see that even those opposed to this bill could oppose this particular provision, as many groups told the select committee in in terms of their opposition to the bill, [01:00:30] their opposition was to a person's homosexual behaviour rather than their homosexual orientation. Mr. Speaker, the final issue that I wish to refer to is the question of AIDS. AIDS is undoubtedly a serious threat to health and life, which our community must minimise and must contain. The primary way in which AIDS can be caught is by sexual contact, and [01:01:00] contagion so far is predominantly confined to the homosexual community. Clearly indulging in particular sexual acts and promiscuous behaviour increases the danger of the spread of AIDS. The answer to that problem, however, is not unenforceable criminal sanctions against certain sexual practises. Far more useful has been the education campaign [01:01:30] conducted by the New Zealand AIDS Foundation to warn people against behaving in a way which is unsafe. This campaign, and efforts by the health department to detect and contain AIDS are not enhanced by the current criminal law. There is far more reason to expect that the efforts of the foundation and the Health department will be assisted if the fear [01:02:00] of criminal prosecution is removed. The Department of Health told the select committee that it could not justify on health grounds the present legislative provisions regarding homosexuality. Mr. Speaker, in conclusion, this bill should be supported by the House in a democratic and pluralistic society such as New Zealand is it is not appropriate for [01:02:30] the criminal law to intervene in the private lives of citizens to enforce any particular moral viewpoint. It is rather the role of the law to prohibit behaviour which causes identifiable harm to others. People should not be persecuted because of their sexual orientation, which, all the evidence suggests is something that they have been born with rather than voluntarily acquired. I [01:03:00] believe that the passage of this bill will be a mark of the maturity and tolerance which our society has achieved. Stay up, Helen Clark. Mr. Speaker, I have supported this bill from the time it was introduced into this house. And I have done so for reasons very similar to those outlined by the member for Roskill. And those reasons are that I fundamentally [01:03:30] believe that what people do in private by way of consenting sexual behaviour should not be within the reach of the criminal law of our country. I strongly believe that it is no business of mine, nor of anybody else, nor of the law. What people agree to do in private in this country, we have traditionally agreed, enjoyed a very great degree of personal freedom. And that is as [01:04:00] it should be, where the rights of other people are not infringed by our exercise of that freedom. I would never argue for absolute personal freedom to act without regard to the rights of others. No rational person would do so. But the point about the practise of homosexuality is that where it occurs between consenting persons in private, it infringes on the rights of nobody else in this society. Yet [01:04:30] for a long time now, our statutes have treated homosexual consenting activity as if it were such a heinous offence that it warranted the special attention of the law as if it had in some way infringed upon the rights of others who are not so engaged now. While it is true that homosexuality is regarded as an affront to the morality of a section of the community that [01:05:00] can no way logically be turned into an argument that affronts to the morality of some should therefore be deserving of criminal sanction, under the secular law of the land. And I think it is extremely important that when this parliament passes judgement on this bill that it should make a clear distinction on the one hand between what some in the community regard as a sin and on the other what is [01:05:30] a fit subject for the secular law of New Zealand and all that the enforcement of that law entails. Those who believe that homosexuality is a sin are of course, entitled to hold that view, and I personally defend their right to hold it. But what deeply concerns me and has increasingly concerned me throughout the public debate which has followed the introduction of the bill, is that some would seek to have the law enforce [01:06:00] their particular moral viewpoint on into the 21st century, as it has for the last 100 odd years. And I believe that in doing that we carry on a serious injustice. We seriously continue to impair the civil liberties of a minority in our society. We do have a remarkably free society here by world standards. We are free to practise any religion or ethical belief which we [01:06:30] like. We are free to follow any political cause that we like. We have a free press, we often curse it, but we wouldn't be without it. The world human rights guide rates us extremely highly on all the criteria which it uses to judge whether or not a society can be considered free, open and democratic. And along with the countries of Finland and Denmark, we enjoy a 196% rating on that index [01:07:00] of what is a fair, open and democratic society. The fact is that if we pass this bill, that rating goes up to 100% and by passing this bill, we remove what those seriously concerned with human rights regard as the one serious blot on our image. As it stands now, we are alone with Ireland in the Western world in continuing to regard male homosexuality [01:07:30] as a criminal act. The British Act on which our law is based was changed almost 20 years ago following on the acceptance of the Wolfenden report on homosexuality. It is time that we took off our statute books, a law which was passed in the British Parliament 100 years ago, adopted into our law a year later. And yet a law that was never intended to have the effect of [01:08:00] outlawing in total male homosexual activity. It was in fact, intended as an amendment put forward by a member of the British House of Commons at the time to protect young boys from prostitution. But the way in which the bill was drafted poorly without thorough parliamentary scrutiny led to the Commons actually outlawing all male homosexuality. It was a mistake then. I think 100 years is far [01:08:30] too long to have lived with a mistake like that on the statute books and surely, now, 100 years later, on the centennial of that, we can take the step to remove that block from our own statute book, Helen Clark of Mount Albert and in the public arena about the age at which it is appropriate to decriminalise consenting homosexual behaviour. At present, there is no age of sexual [01:09:00] consent for men whatsoever. As regards heterosexual activity, the law at the present time imposes an age of consent only on women, and that age is 16. It's an arbitrary age. Prior to the 18 eighties, the age was 12, the age of consent for girls in New Zealand, it went up to 14 and later to 16 in the 18 nineties. There's nothing preordained about an age of consent. It's an arbitrary judgement. [01:09:30] It's arbitrarily fixed, and it varies widely. Across countries. As other colleagues have commented, the age of consent has no bearing. In my view, on the age at which young people become sexually active, the age at which they become sexually active is more likely to be related to levels of sexual maturity and to peer group and lifestyle pressures. If, however, there is to be an age of consent, then the one [01:10:00] on which we have settled for round about 90 years as appropriate for young women is in logic, the one we should now accept as appropriate for young men. And I can personally see no logic in the argument being advanced by some that boys are more deserving of protection in this respect than our girls. Nor do I see any evidence to suggest that an age of consent of 16 for boys [01:10:30] could lead to their being seduced and oriented to homosexuality against their will and before they have a chance to make up their own minds and I think those who argue that way are poorly informed about the nature of homosexuality. We know that sexual preference and orientation is fixed rather earlier on in life than 16. No one quite knows why or how it is fixed, but it is probably valid [01:11:00] to describe homosexuality as a fundamental tendency in human behaviour, which will show up among a certain section of populations across all cultures. Some people will be exclusively homosexual. Others will be truly bisexual. Many will have at least some or occasional homosexual experience during their lifetime. The majority will probably be exclusively heterosexual. But whatever we turn out to be, we have very [01:11:30] little choice in the matter at all. And our sexual orientation will have been determined early on and well established by the time we are of 16 years of age, which I submit is a fit age at which to establish the age of consent. In this bill, I suggest that even occasional homosexual experience, even seduction, cannot make a blind bit of difference to the fundamental sexual orientation [01:12:00] of young men in our community. We are either predisposed to act in that way or we are not. Some have suggested in the debate, and we have heard the case again tonight that the community is not ready for decriminalisation at the age of 16, but that it might accept a higher age and ages of 18 and 20 have been put forward. I would put it to people who have argued that way that we [01:12:30] have a role as opinion leaders in the broader community, and we have a responsibility to do what is sensible in logic and to persuade others of the reasons why 16 should, in all logic, be seen as the sensible and appropriate age of consent. The Justice Department report on the bill gives some weight to that argument when it says logic and principle would seem to support a uniform age of consent for both heterosexual [01:13:00] and homosexual relations. In the absence of clear evidence that boys need a further period of protection in respect of homosexual acts, there is a logical difficulty in justifying a higher age of consent for homosexual acts, a logical difficulty. Others have suggested in the course of public debate on the bill, that decriminalisation of homosexual acts [01:13:30] may lead to an increase in the numbers of homosexuals in the community. I believe the evidence that I have already alluded to shows that that view could not be supported. People are either predisposed to be homosexual or they are not, and the state of the law on the matter will not make one iota of difference to that. People cannot be recruited or seduced into permanent identification with homosexuality. [01:14:00] But what a change in the law may well do is increase the number of people in the community who are known to be homosexual. It often amuses me when I hear people say, But I've never met a homosexual. Almost certainly they have. But those people have not felt able to express the fact that they are homosexual. Given the present state of the law, which buoys up unfortunate public attitudes towards [01:14:30] homosexuality in this country, many homosexual men and women repress their homosexuality because they are afraid to express it. For men, it is a criminal offence to do so. For women, well, it's seen by a vocal segment of the community as offending against social norms. Many homosexual men and women lead secret and unhappy lives because they feel unable to express [01:15:00] the way that they are some of them came to the select committee the day I sat on it in Auckland and told us what it was like to grow up homosexual in a society where litre legitimate expression of their homosexuality is denied. And we heard submissions orally, like this one from a male homosexual who said, as a teenager my life was confused, sad and frightening. At school, there were no role models presented, which had any relevance for me. My [01:15:30] peers proved Unmerciful at any suggestion that one's behaviour or sexual interest was anything other than that of a pattern determined by macho male role models of a type best exemplified by reference to film star heroes or famous rugby players. The total effect upon myself, he said, over an important formative period in my life, was the development of an extremely negative self image. Any list of adjectives I might have honestly used [01:16:00] to describe myself would have included sinner, abnormal, dirty, wicked and perverted. Such was the influence of my peers, societal mores, the church and the education system. And we heard similar evidence from a female homosexual who told the committee that through lack of information, confusion and social naivety as a teenager when she was brought up in a small country town. She thought she was the only homosexual in New Zealand [01:16:30] and thought that marrying and having a baby would cure her love for women, she told the committee. I do not want another generation with probably 10% of its adult population so utterly miserable. Last week, sir, the member for took exception to my statement in this house that the passing of the bill would help to build a healthier social climate in New Zealand. I stand by that statement now, as I did then. [01:17:00] I believe that our society is far less than healthy when it represses fundamental aspects of the identity of a number of our citizens is not healthy when it sends overt messages to that minority that their behaviour is disgusting, abnormal and indeed so perverse that it should be regarded as criminal. Our society is not healthy when it forces on people secretive and closet lifestyles [01:17:30] because of a fear of their expressing what they really are. I believe that we will be a healthier society when we acknowledge our differences, acknowledge that the preference of a minority is not a fit subject for legal or other persecution against them and accept homosexuals as normal members of our community of any community as they are entitled to be seen. I want finally to come to the second major [01:18:00] section of the bill, which would prevent discrimination against New Zealanders on the basis of their sexual orientation. Some members have told the house that while they accept the case for decriminalisation of homosexual acts, they are still unsure about the second part of the bill and I want to put it to them that, in fact, the second part of the bill dealing with anti discrimination measures follows on naturally from [01:18:30] an acceptance of the case for decriminalisation. If we accept homosexuality as a form of sexual practise, which is normal for a minority and not deserving of criminal sanction, what then is the case for saying that others, presumably of a heterosexual orientation, should be free to discriminate against that minority? The rights of the minority in that case are thereby [01:19:00] very seriously infringed. I suggest that we will have made little progress if, on the one hand, we decriminalise at whatever age and then on the other fail to take steps to discourage discrimination on the grounds of sexual preference believe it would be utterly wrong for this house in any way to imply by failing to pass that second section of the bill that it is [01:19:30] legitimate to discriminate by employers and landlords against people who are homosexual. There will, of course, be among homosexuals, good and bad employees and good and bad tenants. But there is simply no case to be made for blanket persecution and discrimination against homosexuals because they are homosexual and to refuse to employ them on their basis or to refuse to [01:20:00] rent flats to them. On that basis, the experience with anti discrimination legislation in New Zealand has been that over a period of time, it has the effect of lessening prejudice against those likely to have been discriminated against before those laws came into effect. In the case of women, for example, anti discrimination legislation has helped to build a social climate where [01:20:30] it is accepted in the employment field, for example, that girls can do anything that they are fit to be employed across a wide range of occupations. Similarly, we have found that our legislation to prevent discrimination on the grounds of race or national or ethnic origin has helped to bring about a change in attitude and practise towards those minorities. I am personally hopeful that in the same way, [01:21:00] if we can enact anti discrimination provisions to protect gay people, that that will in the longer term lead to a greater acceptance of them and their talents and the useful role which they can play as citizens of our hopefully healthier society. And on that basis I would appeal to those who are still thinking of supporting the first part of the bill for decriminalisation and not supporting the second [01:21:30] to think again. Mr. Speaker, I support the bill in its present form as I believe the evidence before us and simple common logic compels each of us to do Rex Austin, Mr Speaker, every person who holds himself up for parliamentary office and [01:22:00] certainly every member who was elected to this house does so with personal gifts, personal goals, personal aspirations, ambitions and personal morality. Now the member may stand for the party. He may stand on the party platform, and he may espouse the party manifesto, and he may be elected on the party ticket [01:22:30] But as individuals, we bring with us our individualism. That is what distinguishes us one from another. And that is what sets each of us apart. And I believe it is entirely within that parameter, the boundary of indi individualism which will determine how each of us views this matter before us and how each of us shall cast his or her vote. [01:23:00] Now, sir, the nature of this bill, in my view, forces us to square up as individuals. And that is how I want to present my contribution a short contribution entirely as an individual, because I can in no way honestly assess, condemn or for that matter, praise other members. Nor should I make the judgement on them to do so in my [01:23:30] view, would be both presumptuous and wrong. So I stand alone on this issue and I stand against the bill. I intend to vote against every clause and do everything that I can to prevent the advancement of the homosexual law reform bill. I do not wish to be identified and supporting it in any way, and I do not want any [01:24:00] part or persuasion embraced by this proposed legislation. Mr. Speaker to me it is wrong. And if this bill is passed, it is my belief that this country will one day rule and regret the day it ever accepted and passed this bill into legislation. Now there are a certain distinctive [01:24:30] issues contained within the bill, and I believe the most important of them is the issue of human rights. It's to that issue that I want to address my my first remarks, the human right, which is interpreted by many and as I understand it by this bill, that every individual shall have an absolute right to follow each sexual persuasion. That's really the issue. [01:25:00] Now I cannot subscribe to what is an all embracing licence. I cannot subscribe to that. And while I admit that the sexual drive is a powerful, sometimes consuming element of human nature, it is nevertheless human nature and it cannot be disregarded. But I would also submit on this case, Mr Speaker, that boundaries, [01:25:30] rules, limits, judgments, disciplines and responsibilities are equally important, if not more so. And it is the duty, as I see it, of members of this house to set those parameters for our own protection, for our Children's protection for our family's protection for society's protection and indeed, if taken to the ultimate, [01:26:00] the country's and its people's survival. So was once a great writer, Kowski. He had what I thought was a profound comment to make in the foreword of a book he wrote called The Ascent of Man. This is what he said. Man is a singular creature. He has [01:26:30] a set of gifts, which makes him unique amongst animals so that, unlike them, he is not some vague figure in the landscape. Man has the ability to shape that landscape. Now, sir, I'm not going to go with the tide. I have got no intention of joining the Ballad of Convenience, and I don't want to drift. [01:27:00] I want to accept my responsibility for shaping the political landscape of this country. And as I see it, the encouragement of homosexuality forms no part of that landscape. I'm not going to step aside from my duty or acquiesce by default, nor am I going to make the mistake, I believe, of not accepting a moral judgement in this case. I see it as a moral judgement, a duty for each [01:27:30] of us to improve whenever possible, humanity to bring our personal gifts and ideas to make life more comfortable and more acceptable and proper for each person in this country. Now, those views, Mr Speaker, are well understood in my electorate. The people in my electorate know my views and I hope respect me for them. [01:28:00] Otherwise, I do not deserve to be here. I cannot change my mind on this issue. I do not wish to be persuaded against what is my personal, moral and personal conviction. Now, sir, as I see it, there's one other very important issue. The issue of homosexuality itself. The attraction of one sex for members of the same [01:28:30] sex and again as an individual. I am conditioned by my knowledge, my logic, I suppose. The environment I've grown up with both physical and human, my religious persuasions and convictions. The homosexuality tendency is limited, is limited and that that tendency was more or less consistent worldwide at 10%. [01:29:00] It's that 10% figure, which gives credence and authority to the belief that come what may not. More than 10% of New Zealanders will ever find themselves involved in the practise of homosexuality, Mr Speaker, from personal observation and knowledge, I find that figure and [01:29:30] that evidence false. I think it is entirely misleading and not to be relied on. We study the human race and the history of man. We find that among certain Polynesian nations, the incidence of homosexuality was reliably assessed at not more than 2% not more than two per cent. And if we traverse [01:30:00] even today, many countries in the Middle East, in the Middle East, you will find there the practise of homosexuality currently in some communities higher than 50% higher than 50 per cent. And I submit to this house that the incidence of homosexuality can be altered between two and up to 50% [01:30:30] in practise amongst men by the mood of the society, the environment of the society, the the acceptable practises of people, our people, Mr Rex or, for instance, to contemplate the 50% incidence [01:31:00] of homosexuality which is factual amongst certain tribes and races of people, for instance, some of whom practise the religion of Muhammad Um, In those societies, homosexuality is not condemned, it is encouraged, homosexuality [01:31:30] is enjoyed. Homosexuality is a and there are good social and environmental reasons for it. Renters, if you have the money in a Muslim society, a man can take unto himself legally with the approval of the church four wives simultaneously and it therefore follows Mr Speaker. It [01:32:00] therefore follows that the climate, the climate for homosexual practise amongst deprived males, is ripe for exploitation where the practise is approved. Now most of us know that I don't know whether we know the detail, but we're pretty familiar with it. Now. I'd like to go on and do one thing else. Order. If you read about [01:32:30] the Greek, the Roman, the early, uh, empires, you will find that the practise of seducing young boys was widely known and widely undertaken. It is still the practise in many Muslim societies today, and the climate is further enhanced because those young boys are given preferable social status. They win rewards and [01:33:00] they have on them conferred powers. Now this may seem a very extreme example. Widely divorced from the New Zealand scene, the only point I want to make is this Mr Speaker that it is possible to create environments in which the incidence of homosexuality can vastly advance on 10% and in the totally right climate can be as high as 50% [01:33:30] or more. I do not want to be identified with any law that opens the door to that promote possibility. I do not want to leave this house someday knowing that the practise of homosexually homosexuality which will come in abundance and I'm sure of that that I was a party [01:34:00] to it. I want to preserve the elements based on the Christian society in this country which preserve the right of Children, which preserves the right of the home which enhances the family. And I do not believe that this law will enhance any of those things. [01:34:30] It will undermine them and we'll do 11 further thing, Mr Mr Speaker. It will undermine the Christian religion. It will surely undermine the Christian religion. I don't believe in humanism. I do not believe in humanism. I don't believe we live in the world where human practise alone should should rule supreme. I believe that religion is so much a part of man that when he divorces himself from [01:35:00] it, he lowers himself. He exposes himself to practises which some would call evil, but which which for me, Mr Speaker, simply mean that man degrades himself I shall vote against every clause in this bill. I shall support one amendment. I shall support the amendment which offers me the opportunity to raise the age [01:35:30] of consent as high as possible. The reason I propose to do that is this. I think this bill will pass. I think that there are more people in this house who will support it and will vote against it to defeat it. And that is a day I regret very much. When we come to the vote, I shall vote for the highest possible age of consent amongst males because not to do so [01:36:00] not to do so would be to impose on young boys the age of 16 as the age of consent. Seems to me, Mr Speaker, that that is a totally regrettable action. I think there is a difference in the age maturity between males and females. I It does not follow logically to me that what is good for the young goose is good for the young. Ganna males mature more slowly [01:36:30] and if it is possible for me to protect those young boys and that is exactly what I will do. So I want to make a final plea. I do not believe that it is valid that because a thing happens, you need to accept it sooner or later. We all have must make judgments and we cannot, [01:37:00] as individuals divorce ourselves for a moral judgement in this house. I think that's why people put us here. I believe that the bulk of people in society expect us to be moral. I believe that the majority of people in New Zealand expect us to bring that moral judgement into this House. And as an individual, Mr Speaker, that is exactly what I intend to do. No, [01:37:30] Scott, I sincerely respect the integrity of the member. For Awarua, who has just resumed his seat, and the fact that we disagree so fundamentally on this issue is surely testimony to the need for tolerance and rationality of debate. The question of homosexuality as a social issue seems to me has in recent times been matched in the New Zealand public arena only by the Springbok [01:38:00] tour issue. In terms of fervour and division, extreme reactions, bigotry and the large scale absence of calm, reasoned debate, there are some interesting parallels. Each of those issues involved a widespread long standing and, for a large number of New Zealanders, a seemingly unalienable conviction. Firstly, that rugby assumes the place of Paramount right, [01:38:30] and secondly, that male homosexuals are puffs completely to be despised and outcast. I'm not interesting. There is a remarkable coincidence of opinion, which is pro tour and anti homosexual law reform bill among individual New Zealanders. Public opinion on both issues has has undergone large scale recent changes dramatic and [01:39:00] generating powerful lobby groups. The reasons which might explain this are worth looking at briefly. I think that basically it is a reaction to the over reaction from both extremes. I think it is a result of increased public discussion and education, and I think significantly that world opinion has finally expressed its pressure here. Remarkably, there is a totally different argument based presented by these lobbies, and I'd like us to look [01:39:30] very carefully at them. On the one hand, it is claimed that there should be absolute freedom for sports people to follow their favourite interests wherever they wish and with whom they wish. On the other hand, an equally total belief that male adults must be legally prevented from homosexual homosexual acts, even if these are between consenting adults in private. [01:40:00] OK, I have probably drawn the above parallel because it is so close. It so closely mirrors my own opinion development. For some years I shared the common law that rugby is supreme and that books is bad news. My change of opinion in both cases followed a conscious questioning of any reality. When placed against the wider social and international ramifications of the issues themselves. [01:40:30] The answer became to me a clear and irrevocable negative. I therefore stand now to support this bill in its virtuous entirety struggle, as individual MPs might, and those who have the gracelessness to sit in this chamber during such a debate muttering inanities might think a little on this struggle as individual MPs might. This [01:41:00] vote is a direct conscience one if ever they have, as MPs the relief or the cover of referenda, then those decisions will in fact not ever take away the conscience part. Anyway. There is no electorate machinery now, which adequately enables an MP simply to cast a vote, reflecting that majority within the Rio electorate [01:41:30] that I represent. Hundreds of opinions were expressed to and at me directly in approximately equal numbers. There were distinct variations between the rural areas and the urban areas and between the towns at different in different parts of the electorate. I openly acknowledge, and I sincerely do so that hundreds of humane and sincere people express strong emotions and [01:42:00] opinions on both sides and extremes of the issue. I really do respect their opinion and their right to express it. And I will not interrupt other people who speak as the member for Waikato Moana is trying to do to me right now. If they wish to translate their reactions antagonistic, if you ask the member on his feet to correct the assertion made considering myself, I have not interjected once on this member a point of order, [01:42:30] I withdraw. I will apologise to the member. That is so. I'm sorry for that. I think that generally have been tolerant of the members, even if they disagree with them. And I think that generally speaking, that is a that is the tenor which members would wish this debate to have. If members have an, uh, an a desire that they cannot restrain to interject, I suggest that they leave the chamber further point of Order, Mr Trevor Mall. I didn't [01:43:00] interrupt the member who was speaking, but I think it would be worth pointing out to you that the member for Foa Ray hasn't ejected from a seat closer than his own to the speaker. I didn't want to interrupt. I think it is important in a debate like this that tolerance is shown, and at the very minimum, members don't shift closer to do that. I'm aware of moving to the chamber, and I've been watching various members who are inclined more than others to interject as they move around the chamber. I'll say if I named him incorrectly, [01:43:30] allow me to say that in terms of the reaction of people in my electorate, I would accept entirely their right to translate their reaction into an antagonistic ballot box decision. And if they do so, I will not complain. I believe that the major petitioners against the bill have actually, regrettably, discredited their cause. The supposed 800,000 total signatures is an acknowledged question. [01:44:00] The public presentation I found to be a frightening enactment of things anathema to most New Zealanders. Even many who signed the petition have said so to me the inventive and the openly threatening demeanour and statements accompanying it were distinctly unchristian of order. Point of order, Mr Banks, I refer you to page 59 of standing orders in particular. Standing order 178. Offensive or disorderly [01:44:30] words. When any offensive or disorderly words are used, whether by a member who is addressing the chair or by a member who is present, the speaker or chairman should intervene. Mr. Chairman, I put it to you, sir, pursuant to your last ruling about orderly conduct in a debate that is a conscience issue being discussed by this parliament tonight, that if this member persists along using those kind of words strung into sentences against those good people who took those 800,000 signatures [01:45:00] and presented them to Parliament, I will get disorderly. And that's a promise. That's a promise. The member for Whangarei will not threaten the chair in that manner that is disorderly. If the member for wants to threaten disorder, then he will take the consequences of showing the disrespect for the chair, which that implies now, as far as he's gone. I don't believe that the member for Tori uh has, uh, encroached [01:45:30] upon, uh, the rules of the house, the rules of debate and the rules of good behaviour that that are generally required of members in a debate of this kind. Noel. Thank you, Mr Speaker. It's not my intention to do that. Anyway, Most of all, the exercise of the petition, in my opinion, largely ill legitimised many of the human concerns of 10 humane concerns of [01:46:00] tens of thousands of New Zealanders who genuinely wish to debate and present a point of view while constructively tackling an issue making, which requires an issue that requires above all else, rationality and humane decision making. These major petitioners eventually decided many New Zealanders that the threat they the petitioners, in some cases presented was even greater than that represented by homosexual acts. Homosexual [01:46:30] tendencies let me state clearly and irrevocably are a are as genetically inevitable as his genius, intellectual handicap or tendencies to aggressive excessive heterosexuality. Scientific and social research affirms this overwhelmingly. The natural range of sexuality is as total in bread as is that of intelligence. There is more than reasonable proof that the proportional distribution [01:47:00] of reasonably hard core homosexuals and excessively heterosexual males roughly approximate the lower and upper divisions of intelligence question distribution about 10% which is a reasonably normal distribution curve. I believe that society has tended historically to blame the individual for a quality or a feature which many fear or dislike or find themselves without. They'll blame [01:47:30] the victim trick, and you can point to ugliness, alcoholism, mental illness And for a long time in New Zealand, far too long. Homosexuality sections of our society have continued to wish to persecute those who are different to themselves. Homosexuals have been more subject to this than any of the other groups I have mentioned. The very existence of the present punitive law, which this bill seeks to change, proves that point [01:48:00] sexuality. Mr Speaker, is a basic driving human force, emotion and much more passion. That is the heat of this issue. Public expectations and assumptions of what is normal in terms of sexual behaviour are steeped in mythology. Custom religious conviction and straight mumbo jumbo is sexuality most commonly regarded as abnormal male homosexuality. [01:48:30] As our current law operates, acts of male homosexuality, even between consenting adults in private, are a criminal offence. The history of the attempts to protect society and such men, supposedly from each other, has been a sorry one in terms of the law, in terms of social impact and in terms of the social traumas involved in terms of the law. In terms of the law, it is honoured only, and it's being ignored. What possible justification [01:49:00] has such a law in terms of social impact? We have widespread hatred and division, and this very debate has exhibited just how trenchant and harmful these emotions can be in terms of personal traumas. I'd care to suggest, Mr Speaker that every MP's male and every MP's personal experience will have been touched many times by tragic individual examples. The sexual issue involved [01:49:30] is central to, but not the only component by any means of this debate and bill. Unfortunately, for many, the issue does not in any way seem to transcend the banal, the raw, the physical, the see me, the aggressive. They paint pictures and seem to delight in them, said this, because were these people able to view the wider involvements of social dignity and equity and most of all, basic tolerance [01:50:00] and even understanding and acceptance, the issue may then be publicly viewed with that combination of compassion and dispassion essential to calm and rational law. Making love is a much more complex passion and emotion than its mere physical expression. The sexual expression of a relationship is far, far more than the organic component, which gets so much attention in New Zealand right now. If the law is to invade the bedrooms [01:50:30] of the nation to put under scrutiny the whole question of sexual behaviour and act, then let it logically extend its purview to include heterosexual and female homosexual relationships, who is normal? What is normal is anal intercourse in heterosexuals. Acceptable research would indicate that it is apparently widely practised what is depravity to one deviance to another, Bestiality [01:51:00] to another is another's delight. What is normal is sex for procreation only, as some would have you believe. I'd care to suggest that the judges of that might have a little difficulty working out who was held to the law. Adults, I would contend Mr Speaker must decide for themselves what is for each of them normal. If there is infringement of personal standards beyond acceptability in terms of [01:51:30] force, lack of consideration, then let the individuals involved find their own solutions unless, of course, they need help and they need protection to do so, in which case the community must provide the support machinery. And I would suggest that by and large, that is available now. Decriminalising an act whether that act be adultery or blasphemy or act of male homosexuality between consenting adults that [01:52:00] is stating in law that is no longer illegal does not necessarily make that attractive, that act attractive of itself nor acceptable to others, let alone compulsory to hear some of the debate points made. One would expect that when such a law were passed, everybody would be indulging in homosexuality. The law must, as it does [01:52:30] now, continue to educate, to define limits, to apprehend and to adjudicate in order to protect our young. The protection of our young is is of great central significance to every New Zealander. I accept that and I'm certain that that is true of people of whichever sexual orientation there might be, I would contend, Mr Speaker, that far from impeding this vital aspect, [01:53:00] that I believe that decriminalisation of male as well as female homosexual acts between consenting over 16 year olds will allow a more balanced scrutiny of the range of indignities both homosexuals and heterosexuals inflict upon our young in number. Let it get it clear, and it's been made clear many times, but it's worth repeating. The dangers are much more from heterosexuals and that from relatives, [01:53:30] friends and close acquaintances. May I, in seriousness suggest that the attention of the people, such as the many petitioners who signed in great seriousness, this petition that they get directed at the social conditions and attitudes under which far too many of the above activities flourish? Efforts to isolate and deal with such activities must remain a high priority by [01:54:00] the police, by the social agencies and by the families involved, particularly the families involved. I acknowledge that the 16 year age division is controversial. I would contend as well, that so, too, would any other limit be available. No legal age limit will of itself prevent such acts anywhere near. Absolutely, you cannot. Just by passing a law and putting an age [01:54:30] on something, prevent it and make sure that it doesn't occur in terms of what you want. So speaker. The whole question of female homosexuality has been rather amazingly to me and far too conveniently ignored or its effects minimised. It is a question quite central to this legislation, both in terms of decriminalisation and more importantly, the danger posed by acts and threats involving those under 16 years of age and thus specified as being protected. [01:55:00] In this bill I support, after very careful consideration for 16 year old provision because of several reasons, and I must say that the arguments about the equality of sexes is one which counts heavily with me. I think, too, that the experience in New Zealand of the 16 year age of consent for women has worked demonstrably reasonably well. That is, at least there is enough public acceptance of it [01:55:30] not to have excited cries for change, and I suggest that there would have been very large scale and rapid cries. Were there the need? It would remove the unjustified legal expectation that you do not need to know or look after yourself until some later stage in life. The law will protect you. Maybe until you're 18, maybe until you're 20 or as now forever. Are we protected forever now [01:56:00] are we? The human rights question is to me the most straightforward of all. I believe basically that it is inhuman and unacceptable that we have laws which would discriminate, discriminate against any of our citizens on the grounds of age, sex, colour or sexual orientation. The basis of justice in all cases for all people must be whether they threaten or they interfere with others. Or they break the agreements and laws which bind us all. Not [01:56:30] just some A final comment, Mr. Speaker, there has been great fear expressed about homosexual teachers. Let it be clearly understood. There are already a considerable number of men that all actions of teachers or others or others which are dangerous or unprofessional should be dealt with decisively and immediately whatever their sex, whatever their religion or their sexual orientation. There are no justifiable [01:57:00] grounds, in my opinion, for human rights discrimination against homosexuals For that combination of reasons. Mr Speaker, I give this Bill Bill my full support. Thank you.

IRN: 930
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ATL URL: 
TITLE: Parliament: Committee of the Whole House - Homosexual Law Reform Bill (16 April 1986)
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VOICES: David Lange; Fran Wilde; Graeme Lee; Merv Wellington
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bill Sutton; David Lange; Fran Wilde; Geoff Braybrooke; Graeme Lee; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Jim Sutton; John Banks; Merv Wellington; Parliament buildings; Philip Woollaston; Trevor Mallard; Venn Young; Wellington; Winston Peters; equality; homosexual; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; human rights; law; pedophilia; politics
DATE: 16 April 1986
YEAR: 1986
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from parts of the Committee of the Whole House during the Homosexual Law Reform Bill, 16 April 1986 (the night Part 2 containing the anti-discrimination provisions was lost).
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: It shall be announced before the amendment is moved. Now, I raise that, Mr Chairman because of message received or information received by the committee earlier today from the Human Rights Commission. And, um, Mr Chairman, that that does state on page two as follows If part two of the bill is passed by Parliament pursuant and that means initially in the committee to a democratic majority yes, [00:00:30] it Yes, it is. It is a standing order and it's 392 and it involves. It involves the governor General now, Mr Chairman, if if you would be good enough to have a look at the standing orders, I believe you are. The Human Rights Commission later says If part two of the bill is passed by Parliament pursuant to a democratic majority and people actively challenge the new law, then there could indeed be an increased work LA with increased cost factors Quite simply, Mr Chairman, under standing order 392 [00:01:00] it is not competent for a private member to move or have passed a measure which would increase the public appropriation or the cost on the public. And my authority for that is speaker's ruling 1, 381 which doesn't only just say that. It says, if there's any doubt, you can't keep going and I repeat it. A private member's bill, clauses of which may involve an extra charge on the people [00:01:30] in the way of rates payable into the public account, requires the recommendation of the crown. Now, that's where speakers um, standing order 392 comes in, and if you haven't got it, it is out of order. It is therefore out of order. Speaker's ruling. 1 381 1929. Volume 221, page 828. Speaker Statum. Now, Mr Chairman, you can't accept the closure because the bill before the committee [00:02:00] is out of order. Simple as that. I. I think I you want to bring the government, You think that I can rule on this matter and I? I think that the member has, uh, previously raised the point. I wouldn't uh, if, um if the member wishes me to rule, I'm happy to do so. Uh, but the member has raised the point previously and it would be out of order for me. I think to, uh, rule in a way, which was any in any form inconsistent with the ruling, which has been [00:02:30] given by Speaker Wall on this matter. So we are awaiting, uh, waiting a ruling from him on the point. Mr Lee. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Want to welcome the Prime Minister back after total absence in this debate, sir, I want to challenge him to stand up and to tell this house where he stands on this bill. If he will the member give way. He [00:03:00] wants me to answer a simple question. If he wants it, genuinely, he'll give away. You can take your full. I am for this bill. I have said so for a year. The member knows. Take the time. You know what the rules are, Mr Lee? I just simply said, sir, it is time he did stand up and speak out and tell the 837,000 people who rejected his bill why he can support it. Why he can support this obnoxious, reprehensible bill. What arguments [00:03:30] he can advance as prime minister for this country. I'm addressing part two and saying that that part of the bill is that part of the bill is not only totally reprehensible, it will, sir, do great damage to this country, and that section of the bill cannot be justified. It cannot be tolerated. It cannot be passed tonight, sir. The [00:04:00] members of this House should know that the second part of this bill closed down in particular, has been drafted by lawyers from the international homosexual community. And that's why this particular section is confusing, complex and says it's designed to be that way. And that's why the implications of this section is not understood, and it's clear it's not fully understood. But the results would be dang, as far as this country is concerned and [00:04:30] they're out working. Let me just explain further that in the terminology of sexual orientation, we have a replacement phrase, one that has followed the word a fictional preference. The fictional preference was first used in this particular human rights section around the world, but in fact denotes and implies a choice in behaviour. So that's why it's been changed to sexual orientation because [00:05:00] that implies that which might have been from birth or that which a person has been born with. And so you have this phraseology sexual orientation. But, sir, it is completely confusing. But it's very clear in the sense of the damage it would do if that section goes through in the present construction in this prison construction, it would allow such things to happen at paedophilia because [00:05:30] the sexual orientation you haven't read the bill. Do you understand this point? The sexual or a point of order? The honourable Mr Wellington. It is quite improper for the member in charge of the bill, whether he or she be a private member or a minister to use the microphone in front of him or her to interject constantly. Mr No, it is. It is covered, indeed, under standing orders. [00:06:00] Now the the member in charge of the bill, the member for Wellington Central called out, I think, which has another ring thrice, Uh uh, thrice and then said, Tell the truth. Now, Mr Chairman, I suggest that she, the member for Wellington Central in charge of the homosexual law reform bill, should be restrained from the privileged position she occupies. Well, I think that generally the point is well made. That interjection should be rare and reasonable. [00:06:30] Uh, I think that, uh I'm probably more aware than anybody else is in the house. That, uh, members to my right in charge of bills use the proximity of a microphone to to interject the member might be reassured to know that I have a button here which mutes that microphone, and I use it quite frequently. Have done the Lee. Thank you, Mr Chairman. I repeat that sexual orientation not only covers heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality, but [00:07:00] it in fact covers in its totality any other preference, leaning or persuasion, and that indeed could cover paedophilia. It could and does allow the question of sodomy bracket incest to happen on the basis that that would in fact, be lawful under the context of this bill. Point of order, Mr Chairman. Point of order, Mr. I call you to rule [00:07:30] on what I believe is disorderly language language in this chamber, which will lead to disorderly behaviour by the member for Hamilton West. I think it, uh I think it would be helpful. Objection has been taken for for whatever reason, the member feels that he's being in. I think it would be helpful therefore, for the member to withdraw the chairman the strength of concern as expressed. I think the member should be given the opportunity. Mr. Lee [00:08:00] Chairman. The concern is adequately expressed by the nine amendments which are before the house in which we should shortly voted upon. Those men seek to exclude the principal areas of concern the armed services, education, the church, life, youth activities, et cetera. Now, sir, I indicate however, that the the point I'm making in this particular speech as to the complexity. Because in those amendments, the word sexual orientation [00:08:30] does allow sir for discrimination against not only homosexuality, bisexuality, but also heterosexuality. So, sir, I am tabling amendments which I would offer to those movers of the amendments currently before the House and which I would ask them to address my amendments. And they effectively change [00:09:00] the word sexual orientation in those respective nine amendments to allow, which I believe is the intention of the movers. And how do we deal with that? Now that the that the discrimination be that against homosexuals or bisexuals? And it is not the intention are the move the movers? I believe those amendments to in fact allow discrimination on Hess, Sir, those are Wild Chairman, The speech [00:09:30] We've just heard. And the claims that have just been made by the member for are a complete perversion. And I think a disgusting perversion not only of the intent of the actually stated in the bill and the member for how he knows that. And night after night in this house. For the last year, he has come in every Wednesday night. He and his his friends and they have used that sort of emotional diatribe, that of emotional [00:10:00] clap tram to frighten members of this house into voting against the bill and night after night. They have raised the issue of incest and paedophilia, and they haven't bothered to look at the truth, to look at the what the bill really does. That, I think, is plain disgusting. They're the ones who revel in rolling the word sodomy and anal intercourse off their lips. Night after night, we wallow in the squalid, revolting [00:10:30] terminology that these members who are opposing the bill are so fond of saying. And I think, Mr Chairman, it says a hell of a lot more about their state of mind than it does about what this bill actually will do. And I would ask that they stick to the truth when they are discussing the bill and that they move their disgusting, perverted version of the bill right out of this house and into the gutter where it belongs, and try [00:11:00] discussing the legislation that's before them. The honourable Mr Wellington. Mr. Chairman, about a week ago, the member in charge of the bill who has just, um, sat down um that, of course, as the member for Wellington Central said that voluntary organisations were exempt from the provisions of Part two of the measure. Now, before I continue, would the the member in charge of the bill, the member from Wellington Central, confirm or otherwise? What she said a week [00:11:30] ago? Yes, precisely precisely now if I might take. And she then went on to talk about some perversion and and looking at the truth and so on. But I might Mr Chairman, pick up what she has just said. She talked about voluntary workers and voluntary organisations. Is that correct? Does the member agree or disagree? I mean, well, she holds her head [00:12:00] as well as she might. She, of course, said a week ago. 168 hours, 24 multiplied by seven to be precise, that voluntary organisations were exempt from Part two The part two provisions of this bill Now she shakes her head Now she shakes her head are voluntary organisations in her out she scratches her head What an extraordinary sight She has nodded She has shaken [00:12:30] her head in the space of less than 60 seconds and she has shaken her head and she has scratched it. And now she's tried to interject through the microphone a point of order Trevor Mallard The these clauses are relatively narrow and I ask you to ask the member to come back debating them and not the position of the person sitting in the chair. Oh well, I've got no I. I think that the, uh, the member on his feet uh, was in the process [00:13:00] of seeking answers. I think that's, uh well, well, indeed I am. We're going to be doing at this, uh, stage of the bill. I think that I must repeat what I've said. Uh, previously in the debate It's it's advisable. Uh, when tempers are high for members not to be too personal Mr. Wellington, the honourable don't tempt me another another matter I should bring to your attention. It's been brought to your attention earlier, but I have [00:13:30] listened to the broadcast of this debate on a number of house times outside of the house, and the member in charge of the bill is frequently interjecting herself. Now I make the point that if she's been asked questions by a member of the house, then she has the opportunity to get to her feet and take the call. And when I didn't reply, he said, Come on, tell us, why don't you reply? I'm in a no win situation with that member and I back up [00:14:00] Mr Wellington, speaking to the point of up, up to a point, I accept what the member for Wellington Central has just said. She is quite right. I have complained not often, but as I thought, appropriate of her interjections into the microphone. Now leave it at that because you have ruled. Now I come to the point. A week ago, she claimed from the seat. Oh, she's going No, I think perhaps, [00:14:30] I mean, she's seeking advice. She's on her knees. After that, she claimed that voluntary organisations were exempt from Part two of the bill Now I'm prepared to give way if she would get up and use the mic and say one of two things. It's either or are voluntary organisations exempt from the provision of [00:15:00] And I said provision singular of part two comma or not now would now would the member for Wellington Central indicate whether they are or not? You Mr Chair, Mr Chairman, since the member for papakura is finding this concept a little difficult to grasp even though the bill has been before the House for a year, I should explain to him very patiently again what the bill [00:15:30] says. It says in terms of work that it applies to people in paid employment. And that means people in a voluntary capacity such as scout masters, which was the issue that arose last week, are not in fact covered by the bill. They are exempt. Thank you. Well, my understanding a week ago and therefore could I ask the chairman I'm sorry. The member in charge of the bill, this question and in so doing give her [00:16:00] a little bit of background. She is talking about voluntary organisations, and she is saying that she's shaking head she is saying that the volunteers are exempt. That's fine except that in New Zealand, many very fine volunteer in inverted commerce organisations have paid administrators at their very top. Now let me let me give an example. Let me give no not exempt. Let me give an example. The New Zealand Red Cross Society has at its [00:16:30] head as secretary General and he is subject to the member for Wellington Central's changes. If this measure is passed, that means that he shall remain subject to police investigation as to whether he is a fit and appropriate person. That is correct and all the volunteers are exempt. What about apart from the Secretary general of the New Zealand Red Cross Society, [00:17:00] other persons in the paid employed? Mr Chairman, I take exception to what the member for Wellington Central is doing. She has said that volunteers are exempt is not as simple as that. There are people in New Zealand's volunteer organisations and inverted commerce volunteer who are in fact paid. I've mentioned one the New Zealand Red Cross Society and I shall tell I shall tell the member in charge of this bill [00:17:30] it would be impossible. It would be impossible for such a person to secure employment so as to organise, assist, encourage the volunteers. It would be impossible unless those persons in paid employment in a voluntary organisation were cleared by the police. Now I know Mr Chairman. Mr. Chairman Fran Chair. I'm not quite sure [00:18:00] whether the member for dreams up these amazing ideas, but there is nothing in this bill that says that anyone should be subject to police investigation because they want to get a job. I'm not I. I can't actually follow his line of reasoning if it can be graced with the name of reasoning, which I don't think it can. The fact is that the administrator, the paid person running the Red Cross would in fact be that the Red Cross would be subject to this bill in terms of its paid employees. And so [00:18:30] it should be. And I, for one, can't imagine how that would concern the Red Cross in any way, because I know that despite the fact that the member for Papakura used to work for them, they're actually on the whole, a fairly decent and broad minded outfit, and I heartily and totally personally support them I always give to their appeal, and I support them in every way I can. And, Mr Chairman, they will be so in terms of their paid employees. But as I have stated to the house on many, many occasions, where the member for obviously has been not listening, there are any [00:19:00] volunteers in any group whatsoever. And I must admit the Red Cross is the first one that's been raised. Um, here. Normally, it's the scouts would in fact not be covered by this and, uh, because that has nothing to do with their livelihood. Uh, the, uh, the honour was D. Well, you see, Mr Chairman, that's the great difficulty Parliament gets itself in. Now let me take the Red Cross Society and I. I chose it advisedly for two reasons. In the early 19 seventies, [00:19:30] I was a paid employee of the New Zealand Red Cross Society in charge of organising the voluntary activities of thousands of New Zealanders. Now, is the member in charge of the bill gossiping with the clerk of the house hiding behind the microphone? Or is it in fact, a technical discussion Now, Mr Chairman, I asked you to, uh indicate which one of the two, the the, uh the the the member in charge of the bill was simply having a few [00:20:00] words of a technical nature with the I accept what you say. And Mr Chairman, as there is the member for Hamilton West. A political if ever I saw one. I have political lout. Chair of the select Committee on this measure. Sits here like a making sure the member for Wellington Central starts to get away. But he hasn't talked to the prime minister who hasn't spoken on [00:20:30] in the committee stages. He hasn't spoken to the deputy prime minister who hasn't spoken in the committee stages on the money implications of this bill. But that's another matter. You see, Mr Chairman, I come back to where we were a minute ago. The member for Wellington Central can't have it both ways in this manner, the paid permanent head, if you like. Of the New Zealand Red Cross Society, who is by designation, the Secretary General is subject is [00:21:00] subject to the old law. But the president, the elected head of the society who is a volunteer, is not now what sort of division and confusion, what sort of division and confusion, and the president of the New Zealand Red Cross Society in my time was in the first instance, a notable public accountant in and in the second instance, a notable surgeon [00:21:30] indeed is at this moment chairman of the Wellington College Board of Governance. Now how how do we get on if the President the elected head, is subject to a different law compared with or in relation to the permanent head? You see, it doesn't make sense. And I thought that is what the member for Wellington Central said. 100 and 68 hours ago flip into me. But of course, voluntary organisations are exempt life [00:22:00] even in voluntary organisations where people try to do what is right and she shakes her head, she shakes her head. Of course she is wrong and she is starting to realise life isn't that simple. Life isn't that simple and I suggest Mr Chairman, before I get on to other matters. The member for the member for Wellington Central suggest how the committee with voluntary organisations only [00:22:30] as its focus at this moment, gets out of the difficulty of having one law for the president of a voluntary organisation and another law for the paid official or permanent head of the same uh, Mr, uh, Jim Sutton. Mr. Chairman, I move that the question be Now, put the question Is that the question be now, put those in favours. Those [00:23:00] in favour of water water. Put it, Mr. Chairman, I'm interested in what you're saying. Are you suggesting now that you're going to put the question? Is that Is that what you're saying? I mean, you haven't answered, uh, this man here and I've taken the call. Um, are you going to put the question? Because, um and I want to ask some questions about the number of questions you're going to be put. And how are you gonna put them? I think that's a very important, uh, question that the member has raised. Um, I'd be very happy to do that, um, at the stage where we're [00:23:30] moving through the amendments because otherwise I'm sure that members are going to be a bit, uh, a bit lost who haven't taken, uh, taken, uh, close attention to what's happened. The question then, is that the question being output? Those in favour will say I am those with the opinion will say no. The eyes have it. A a further point of order. Mr Wellington? Yes. Point of order, Mr Chairman. I beg your pardon, Mr Wellington. Point of all, there are members in the aisles. They be seated. There was one clearing out. Uh, firstly, please, [00:24:00] Mr Chairman, when we discussed at the beginning of the committee stages the procedural and I acknowledge the lady member of Southern Mari When when the committee considered the procedures the chair served indicated by inference that any member who wished to speak would have four times five entitled to five minutes four times. Now, Mr Chairman, [00:24:30] I have not had that I might have had 10. 12. Now the journals of the House will testify to that. And I think, and there are other members I mean, the member for Moana and others are anxious, sir, to put new material. Now I submit to you that the material I put a minute ago on voluntary organisations Oh, there goes the name of Well, I think he can He can't interrupt the point of point of Hellen your ruling. [00:25:00] I think the I think you have been I think you've been very fair. But, Mr Chairman, I also submit that where fresh material is injected into the debate as I endeavour to do, you're the judge of that is I endeavoured You should hear further argument. I want to hear from the member in charge of the bill. The points I raised, I think the the document. Now that I have the member's point of view, point of order, clearly in my mind, the the the the problem that we now have is [00:25:30] that the closure motion, uh, has been sought. The motion has been put and the motion has been passed. Uh, well, no, no, the the member may not may not may not, in fact, make that imputation. But I, I would like to point out to the member for papakura uh, that the point of order that he raises uh is is worthy is worthy of a reply. I think I mean, he has. He has pointed out that the chair at the time that the question was asked way back at the beginning [00:26:00] of the of the debate did say that members were entitled to 44 or five minute calls. That was of course not taking into account the possibility of a closure. Uh, which, uh, which we now have upon Chairman. Point of order, Mr Chairman? No. Well, I, I think that, uh, members members should be aware that we we have now had the closure motion put before us. And the closure motion has been passed. I have no point of order, Mr Chairman. Point of order, Mr Chairman. Oh, well, if the members [00:26:30] are in some doubt, I'll put it again. Absolutely, In a lot of doubt. A lot of doubt it because we're gonna have a vote on this. We're not just gonna let it go through. Well, that that's that's fair. That's fair. If if members are not not quite clear, I'll put the question a quick again. The question is that the question be now, put those in favour to say a those with the contrary to say no, the eyes have it noes. Have it division called for. Ring the bells. Eyes will go to the right nose, will go to the left. Sutton. Uh, tell [00:27:00] us for the eyes are Mr Williston and Jim Sutton and Mr Jim Sutton. Tell us for the nose. Uh, Mr Lee and, uh, and Mr Bra, the question is that the question be now put. The eyes are 42. The nos are 34. The question will be put. Unlock the doors, unlock the doors. At this point, it might be helpful, uh, if members, if they haven't received [00:27:30] a copy that's been circulated, uh, avail themselves of a list which has been prepared by the clerk's office and is available at the table. Which, um, yes, I'll come to the member's point of order, which sets out the, uh, the the the various amendments that have been proposed and the order in which it is proposed to take them distributed last week. I'll take [00:28:00] the member's point of order in a moment. Graham Graham, Do you want to put yours or not? Are you going to seek to put your [00:28:30] Could I explain further to members now that they have the copy of the sheet that's been supplied by the clerk's office that there are emissions from this sheet which take the form of a two page slip of amendments which were circulated earlier this evening by Mr Lee? Mr. Lee has proposed amendments and amendments to amendments which he gave notice of earlier in the evening and indicated that he would be moving with the permission or with the agreement of the movers of [00:29:00] the amendments to which they apply. Now, we have a point of order from, uh, Mr Wellington. Yes, Mr Chairman, I accept the reading of the, um, teller's lists about the closure. Might I enquire because, uh, one hasn't had the opportunity of examining in which manner the member for Wellington Central voted on the closure motion? I don't think that that's [00:29:30] really a matter of of order now. Um, yes, yes, I'd like I'd like members to come to order. Now, we have quite a complex series of amendments to deal with. Can can Can the members now, um, apply themselves to the amendments before the committee? And the first of these is found on supplementary order paper 72. It's Doctor Bills. Bill Sutton's amendment, And it is an amendment to clause nine which redefines [00:30:00] the term sexual orientation. Are members ready to vote on that point of order? Doctor Bill Sutton. Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to proceed without amend. Thank you. Can we Can we therefore have order? Can We therefore have the leader of the committee for Mr Bill Sutton to withdraw the amendment. Uh, which isn't his name. There does not. [00:30:30] Well, at this stage, I don't believe the amendment has been moved and it's up to the member whether he seeks to move it. Uh, yes, a point of order, Mr Chairman. Order! Order. Can I just Can I just ask members of the house to hear points of order? Sam, would the member for Zuma please have a point of order here, [00:31:00] Mr. Peters, we have to move his amendment. Um, and we will be happy to do it for him. And I believe so. That's what's up, David. You getting nervous? So I move the amendment in the name of Dr Sutton speaking to the point of the member for Hawke's Bay foreshadowed a possible amendment some weeks [00:31:30] ago, the member for uh, Tauranga did not foreshadow that amendment. Uh, if the member for Hawke's Bay chooses not having heard the debate to move his amendment, then no member of the house can force him to do so. Uh, speaking further to the point of order, Mr Peters, Ocean has been the amendment has been foreshadowed thereafter, any person can move it. And the, uh, Blackstone of the Labour Party should know that I'd like I'd [00:32:00] like members order. I'd like members indulgence while I consult with standing orders. Order Can Can we just have a moment or two to consult on this matter without further, I think that the position that we're in is covered in, uh, standing orders. Uh, 190, [00:32:30] uh, standing order 190 subparagraph two, Which is the situation that applies when a motion that the question has now been put has been carried now on the second sentence. Uh, in that standing order Subpar two. It says any proposed amendment that has been properly notified on the supplementary order paper or has been handed to the table prior to the time when the closure motion is accepted and which relates to the matter under consideration [00:33:00] shall be put forth with so that the member is not in a position to withdraw his amendment. The amendment has to be put. What about that? Can we have silence? Please? Mr. Speaker. Mr. Chairman, it is good that the opposition agree that these matters now go to the vote without comment, debate or further points of order. [00:33:30] A further, further raise 18 you properly raised under standing orders 1902. The point that you have just put. But 1903 goes on to say an affirmative vote of not less than 20 members shall be necessary to carry any motion under the standing order. Now, I'm not going to go into that any further, except to say, Mr Chairman, I [00:34:00] believe that the fact that the member for Hawke's Bay chooses not to proceed should be voted upon by the committee in accordance with standing order 1903 you quoted to and that we should proceed in that direction for the That's fine, Thank you. Now the question then, is that Mr Bill Sutton's amendment to Clause nine, which I have summarised four members, uh, as redefining the term sexual orientation. [00:34:30] The question is that that amendment be agreed to those in favour will say I for those who have the current opinion will say no. The amendment is lost. No, the amendment. The amendment is lost. Uh, we now come to order, order, order. When members come to order, we now have a series of amendments proposed by Mr Lee [00:35:00] Order. If members wish to know where we are, it would be helpful for them if they came to order. Mr. Lee's amendments have been circulated on a on a two page slip of amendments, and the first of these is an amendment to the amendment which is proposed by Doctor Bill. Doctor, just repeat that today. No, no. Yeah, that's haven't we? [00:35:30] Yeah, we've lost that. But now we've got an amendment to this one. We got a Can I explain to members what is about to what is about to happen. Doctor Bill Sutton's amendments provide in clause nine A for discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation in respect of domestic employment and religious orders. That is the that is the amendment and the amendment to the amendment, [00:36:00] which is proposed in Mr Lee's, uh, supplementary order Paper is the substitution of the term sexual with the term heterosexual. I mean, point of order, Mr Lee, has the motion been actually put? Has a sudden amendment actually been the first one has been put and lost? It has been put and lost. Therefore, sir, my amendment, of course, is irrelevant to that is to [00:36:30] point of order that the member for Hawke's Bay actually had two amendments, one of which has been lost, and the other one that Mr Lee wishes to hang on to to amend. He surrendered that battle without a fight. I can't understand it. We're about to order. Can I clarify the matter for the for the for the second Amendment proposed by Mr Sutton, to which Mr [00:37:00] Lee has an amendment has yet to be put. That is the situation. And we are now about to move to put Mr Bill Sutton's Second Amendment. Mr. Mr Chairman, Mr. I'm sure that I can clear up matters for the house. Uh, if I if I simply explain that the amendment which has been lost was an amendment to Clause nine. There are two further amendments standing in my name, which would constitute clauses nine a and nine B. These [00:37:30] are clauses. These amendments Mr Lee has sought to amend Mr Lee's Mr Lee's proposal then is the substitution and Mr Sutton's amendments of the word heterosexual for the word sexual. The question then is that the amendment to the amendment be agreed to. We are now voting on Mr Lee's amendment to the amendment. The question is that the amendment to the amendment be agreed to those in [00:38:00] favour of side. Those of the opinion will say no, the nose have it. The eyes have it division called for. Ring the bells, the eyes of 39 the nose of 40. The amendment to the amendment is not agreed to unlock the doors, unlock the doors. Our members are now are now obliged to vote on the amendment. I remind members that this is on supplementary order. Paper 72 [00:38:30] if if the member could just let me finish that, Um And it belongs to Doctor Bill Sutton and allows discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation in respect of domestic employment and religious orders. Mr. Banks, um, I noticed that the last bill was a one minute bill. Uh uh. All the forthcoming bells going to be one minute bells until we just settle down. So I ask you wanted to be heard in silence, Mr. Banks. Settle down, [00:39:00] Mr Chairman. So I note then that all all the forthcoming bells will be one minute bells. Yes, yes, The que The question is that the amendment be agreed to. Those in favour will say Aye, But those with the contrary opinion will say no. The noes have it. Eyes have it division, Call four. Ring the bells. One minute bell eyes will go to the right. Nos will go to the left. [00:39:30] Agree to the eyes are 52. The nos are 26. The amendment is agreed to unlock the doors, Unlock the doors. We proceed Now we proceed. We proceed now to the next of the series of amendments to amendments proposed by Mr Lee. Mr. Lee has a proposal which affects the Honourable Sullivan's amendment. Her amendment [00:40:00] in nine a A and nine BB Both new clauses is to allow discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation in respect of positions of authority over the young young persons and in respect of the letting of residential property. Mr Lee's amendments to those amendments propose once again the substitution of the term sexual with the term heterosexual. The question now is members members quite [00:40:30] happy with that all want some clarification. Well, what is what is the, uh, point that perhaps perhaps it would be helpful for Mr Lee if if, uh if if Mr Lee himself spoke just briefly to chairman the Human Rights the Commission Act Section 15 is Provision four, in fact, preference on the basis of sex in certain areas. [00:41:00] Now the confusion, if there is any, is because in the context of the wording of this of this amendment, the change is in line with the Human Rights Commission Act, Section 15. In the other amendments, it is change round. But it is the same purpose for all amendments throughout, just so that members know what the pieces of paper are that they have in front of them. There are two pieces of paper. One contains the amendments, [00:41:30] the other, the other is a two page piece of paper. That sounds strange, but it contains Mr Lee's amendments to the amendments. We're voting on the the, uh, the second of these. The question then is that the men that order the question is that Mr Lee's amendments to the amendment of Mr and O'Sullivan be agreed to Those in favour will say I those of the country opinion will say no nos have it [00:42:00] eyes Have it division called for Ring the bells? Yes. They call the division has been called for. The eyes will go to the right. The nose will go to the left. Their seats. The question is that Mr Lee's amendment to the Honourable Tira Sullivan's amendment be agreed to. The eyes are 34. The nos are 45. The amendment is not agreed to unlock the doors. Unlock the door, [00:42:30] Mr Lee. Point of order. I'd seek to leave the house to withdraw the subsequent amendments as they affect the further amendments before the House, sir, in the interests of once, once they were well, it it will require members to leave if the committee order. If the committee is a unanimous agreement, [00:43:00] then, uh, Mr Lee's request to withdraw his amendments can be agreed to. Is there any dissent from Mr Lee's proposed course of action? There is now We move on to deal with the Honourable Sullivan's amendments on supplementary order paper. Six members have asked for a quick summary of these. They propose new clauses nine a A and nine a B, and they allow discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation and respect of positions of [00:43:30] authority over young persons and in respect of the letting of residential property the question is that the amendments be agreed to in favour to say I the contrary to say no. The eyes have it nos have it division called for, then ring the bells, eyes to the right, nos to the left, one minute bell. The question is that the amendment be agreed to. The eyes are 44. The nos [00:44:00] are 35. The amendment is agreed to unlock the doors, unlock the doors. We now come to a consideration of Mr O Flynn's amendment to Mr Bray Brook's amendment. Mr. Bray Brook's amendment is found on supply Supplementary order paper one. It is a new clause 10. It proposes for the police, armed forces, traffic officers [00:44:30] and prison officers to discriminate on grounds of sexual orientation in respect of employment in these services, we are dealing first of all with Mr O Flynn's amendment, which provides for discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation only in respect of employment in the armed forces and the police, not in respect of traffic officers and police and prison officers as well. We're putting Mr Lynn's amendment to Mr [00:45:00] Bray Brook's amendment first, a point of order, Mr Bray Brook point of clarification is. My amendment includes also traffic officers and officers employed in penal institutions, prison officers. If I wish to vote for that, um, are you gonna put them separately? You know, one after the other. Or, uh, if Mr O Flynn's amendment is one does mine, then get to go again because it puts the traffic officers and the prison officers in with it. [00:45:30] I'm not quite clear what the member's question is, but the but the order Order, Can we have order, please? The member for Napier is is seeking clarification of the status of his amendment in the event that it is lost. Is that right? What I mean to say is, if members want to vote, that orientation will be grounds for discrimination against the armed forces, police, traffic officers, prison. How [00:46:00] do we get on? Because if I, I want to support Mr O'Flynn, which is almost a copy of mine. Uh, but I also want the prison officers, including it as well. Does it mean that Mr Flynn's one might be defeated to get mine a approved I? I think that I should, uh I should make it clear that the proper course of action for the member and the case that he wanted to retain, uh, discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation in all four services that is armed forces, police, prisons and traffic officers, and that in that case, he should vote for both [00:46:30] amendments. And I would take the leave of the house to put my amendment first because it covers all four. And if that is defeated, then go to Mr O Flynn's amendment and I formally move that way and take the pleasure of the house. If if it is the wish of it, if it is the wish of the committee that that that should be the case, we will proceed. In that way, we will now proceed then with Mr Bray Brook's amendment. The question is [00:47:00] that the amendment be agreed to Those in favour will say I those of the country opinion will say no, the I say, Oh, no, have division called four Ring the Bells one and a bill. I will go to the right so we don't put a friend of animal because the question has now been designed. [00:47:30] The question is that Mr Bray Brook's amendment be agreed to. The eyes are 42. The nos are 37. The amendment is agreed to unlock the doors, unlock the doors. Uh, that that leaves the situation where, uh, Mr O Flynn's, uh, amendment has not proceeded with. It's [00:48:00] inconsistent. It's inconsistent. Uh, the question now is, uh, with respect to Mr uh, Bray Brook's amendment. This is one which, uh, appears on the supplementary order paper as clause 11. And it, uh, makes it clear that educational institutions can make and enforce rules about sexual conduct. That is the amendment which members are now invited to deal with. The question is that the amendment [00:48:30] be agreed to Those in favour will say I those of the kind of opinion will say no. The nos have eyes have a division call for Ring the Bells. The question is that Mr Bray Brooks, New Clause 11 be agreed to. The eyes are 45. The nos are 35. The amendment is therefore agreed to unlock the doors, unlock the doors. Uh, we now move to Mr the Honourable Mr O Flynn's proposal [00:49:00] for a new clause. We call this 11 a in substance. The clause allows discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation by vocational training bodies in respect of the training of servicemen or people seeking to enlist. Question then, is that the amendment question is then that the amendment be agreed to favour. Say I contrary. No, the eyes have it. Have [00:49:30] it division call for Ring the bells. One A bill eyes to the right nose to the left. Tell us for the eyes, Mr Lee and Mr Ray Brook. Tell us for the nose. Mr Mallard and Mr Williston. Excuse people training for the armed forces. I'd like you to check those lists because the Prime Minister was here, and I don't know whether he's been able to vote. And it may be through some. I cannot see his name on the voting list. Where [00:50:00] is the bat boy? Thank you, Thank you. We We're just checking the list now. Right. Order [00:50:30] Right now. Speaking to the point of order. Order, order! Order! Points of order should be heard in silence, Mr Wallace, sitting in the immediate proximity of the member [00:51:00] whose vote was called into question and I certainly did not hear him vote on the voice. And I was considerably closer than the member for Oto speaking. I want to tell you, Mr Speaker, I was sitting and watched the prime minister very carefully. Order Order. When when the vote on the voices were called, the prime minister called. Yes, He then left the chamber. Uh, I. I don't [00:51:30] think there's any order Order. I don't think there's anything here that I can, uh that I can rule on, uh, the division's being called, uh, the the list to here. If any honourable member wants to examine the list, uh, to determine who's voted and who hasn't. The question then is that Mr O Flynn's amendment a new clause 11 a, uh, be agreed to the eyes are 44. The nos are 34. The amendment is agreed to unlock the doors, [00:52:00] unlock the door we come to Mr O. Flynn's further new amendment. This is, uh, a new clause 12. It allows discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation by education institutions conducted by the armed forces in respect of servicemen or people seeking to enlist. The question then is that the amendment be agreed to those in favour. Say I those in the country opinion will say no. The eyes have [00:52:30] it no have a division called for the question Now, is that Mr O Flynn's amendment incorporating a new clause 12 8 be agreed to the eyes of 44 the nose of 35. The amendment is agreed to unlock the doors. We now come to the We now come to the main question. Which is that part two as amended. Stand part The question is that the motion be agreed to [00:53:00] Those in favour will say a those of the opinion Say no. The no haven't eyes have division called for? Ring the bells, Eyes will go to the right nose will go to the left. Tell us the eyes, Mr Bray and Mr Lee. I beg your pardon? Tell us for the eyes. Mr Willis and Mr Mallard. Tell us for the nose. Mr Bray [00:53:30] and Pa, The eyes are 36 and 31. 21 36. Don't you know I beg your pardon? The eyes are 31. The nos are 49. Part one And part two will not stand. I will. I will report progress [00:54:00] and ask. Believe to sit again. The door! Open the doors. Unlock the door. The homosexual law reform bill has directed me to report. Progress has also directed me to move to leave to si again. The Chairman committees has reported that the Committee on the Homosexual Law Reform bill has directed [00:54:30] him to report progress and has also directed him to move to seek leave to sit again. The time has come when I must leave the chair and I will return to the chair. Uh, the the house stands adjourned until 2 p. m. tomorrow afternoon.

IRN: 907
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TITLE: Parliament: second reading debate - Homosexual Law Reform Bill (9 October 1985) - part 1
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VOICES: Fran Wilde; Geoff Braybrooke; Margaret Shields; Robert Muldoon; Venn Young
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Fran Wilde; Geoff Braybrooke; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Margaret Shields; Parliament buildings; Robert Muldoon; San Francisco; Wellington; child molestation; equality; homosexual; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; human rights; law; pedophilia; politics
DATE: 9 October 1985
YEAR: 1985
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from parts of the debate during the second reading of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill, 9 October 1985 (part 1 of 2).
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: National level because I believe that the process of learning about this issue and of consequent attitude change which I myself had undergone over a period of years, would be able to occur in the community as a whole only if the facts were presented clearly stripped of the emotional clap trap which usually accompanies discussion of homosexuality. In retrospect, it was a forlorn hope. When the ingrained prejudices of a community are examined when the conventional [00:00:30] mythology is challenged, it is an unsettling experience for any society confronting your own ignorance, Misconceptions and prejudice is no less difficult for a group than it is for an individual. The debate has been an emotional one, and it has been from many quarters a vicious attack on the very beings of 10% of our citizens and on the families and friends who give those citizens their love and support. After being the object [00:01:00] of a bitter hate campaign myself and experiencing some of the hot breath of hatred which is breeded on the gays and lesbians of New Zealand. From the extreme homophobes in our midst, I have come to accept that there are a minority of people in our community who do not wish to discuss the facts. They are not interested in seeking social justice through truth. They have a personal and political agenda which deliberately plays on genuine concerns expressed by many New Zealanders who [00:01:30] deserve better than to be used as pawns and kept an ignorance of information which will delay their fears. I hope that during the second reading of debate, members of Parliament and the public will take advantage of the opportunity they will get to listen to factual information. I mentioned challenging the mythology on homosexuality, and tonight I'll address some of the more destructive of those myths, in particular those on which the select committee was given evidence by credible and qualified [00:02:00] witnesses. There's been much discussion about the possible effects of the decriminalisation measure, which I am proposing without exception. Those who have opposed the bill either publicly or at the select committee used as their ominous example of social decay. The city of San Francisco. I don't wish to dwell on the arguments they put forward, but I must say that if some of the most vociferous opponents of the bill would take the trouble to visit that place and speak with senators, congressional [00:02:30] representatives, public health officials and doctors. As I did recently, they might speak a little more sense and a little less garbage. Mr. Speaker, what I am really curious to know is why we do not ever hear this sort of talk about other places where decriminalisation has occurred. The fact is that New Zealand is one of the few countries left in the Western world where men who engage in consenting homosexual activity in private are able to be imprisoned. Why do we not hear these [00:03:00] cries of outrage and horrific examples from Scotland or Spain or Italy or Germany, or any of the other states of America such as Alaska or West Virginia, where this change has already occurred and the sky has not fallen in? I know that many members of this house accept the need for reform and decriminalisation but are concerned that the age of consent of 16 is too low, Mr Speaker, I understand their concern because a long time ago, when I first started [00:03:30] looking at the possibility of initiating some legal reform, I too had many questions to be answered on that issue. One of the first issues members should examine is that of the formation of sexual orientation. The select committee heard evidence from a number of professionals in the medical and psychiatric field who told us quite categorically that international opinion no longer views homosexuality as a disease, but as a psychosexual variant, one of a number of possible sexual orientations. [00:04:00] The New Zealand Health Department has drawn attention to the frequent observations made in clinical practise that the major causes of mental distress found among persons of homosexual orientation derive not from the orientation itself, but from the attitudes of the wider society and the laws which give them expression. None of the reputable professional groups who have any interest in this issue, either here or overseas, except that there is a cure for homosexuality. [00:04:30] Of course, people can be persuaded to modify their behaviour and to choose celibacy or perhaps heterosexual activity, and others who are perhaps bisexual or basically heterosexual can give up homosexual activity. But basic sexual orientation is as much a part of us as is the fact of whether we are left or right handed or in some cases, aide, dexterous. Opponents of the bill have made much of a so called ex gay movement in the United [00:05:00] States. What I discovered when I was there a few weeks ago is that a number of the prime examples still touted as success stories by the ex gay movement have found it too difficult to maintain the self delusion and are now gay rights activists in the USA. Also published recently was a booklet Mr Speaker, purporting to describe the social effects of homosexuality in New Zealand, and some of the members of Parliament will have this little grey book. [00:05:30] It draws heavily on sources such as Henri Grader, a priest who is so rapidly homophobic that most major Catholic bookstores in the US refuse to stop his work and an organisation called Is I the brainchild of an American called Paul Cameron, who was expelled from the American Psychiatric Association for his obsessive campaign against homosexuals. He actually manufactured cases and used lies and misinformation to back up [00:06:00] his extravagant claims. Fran Wild Wellington President Johnson, whose highly questionable methodology involved claims of cures amongst a group of married bisexuals who had presented with marital problems seeking to repress their homosexual tendencies and some of whom had managed to remain celibate or solely heterosexual for a period of six months, I was interested to see that the book actually begins with the testimony of a so-called former [00:06:30] homosexual, Mr Gavin Johnson of Christchurch. Members may like to know that Mr Johnston appeared before the Select committee in Christchurch. I presume it was the same person, and, in response to questioning from committee members, said he actually thought that homosexual behaviour should be decriminalised with an age of consent. He suggested of perhaps 18 or 19. He was uncertain about that, Mr Speaker. It's clear that basic sexual orientation is formed in the early years of life, usually [00:07:00] by the age of 12 or 13, a young person has realised that he or she is different from the peer group. In many cases, the feelings are not explicitly identified till much later on because of a lack of access to any points of reference where they are identified, they are almost invariably suppressed because youngsters know that our society is aggressively heterosexual, and they fear being the victims of so called queer baiting, which is evidently [00:07:30] not uncommon amongst teenagers With their desperate desire to conform. Many teenagers and older people do, in fact, have homosexual experiences, but this does not affect their basic heterosexual orientation. Social research has indicated that as many as 25% of all men have significant homosexual experience over three years. Point of order, Mr Speaker, we have just had an important debate [00:08:00] terminated by government pressure. The people are tired of this garbage under the guise of a private member's bill. Mr. Speaker, I suggest this house get on with the important business of the country. If the member abuses, if the member abuses the point of order system like that, he will, undoubtedly [00:08:30] there will be repercussions for it. Would the member continue? Mr Speaker? As I was saying, Social research has indicated that as many as 25% of all men have had significant homosexual experience over three years between the ages of 16 and 55. But not all of these men, of course, are basically homosexually orientated, nor do they wish to be so, nor are [00:09:00] they pushed into a homosexual orientation. Through this activity, I want to tell the house what Dr Hall and Dr Dobson from the Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists said when questioned by the committee, and I quote verbatim what they said. Evidence is strong that the direction of sexuality in almost all people is determined pre school. The suggestion that seduction of adolescence is likely to be a major factor in determining subsequent sexuality [00:09:30] is not supported by evidence. It is one of the common popular myths and does not fit in with other information on the determining of sexuality. We do not see any medical reason for having a different age of consent. Of course, members will realise that a legal age of consent is a pretty arbitrary thing. In Catholic Spain, it is 12, whereas in other countries it ranges up to the age of 20. In New Zealand that was originally 12, was then raised to 14 [00:10:00] and is now 16. Most countries have an age of consent to protect young people during what is considered to be a vulnerable stage of physical and emotional development in New Zealand. There is currently technically no age of consent for males. We accept that by 16 years of age, females are old enough to determine whether or not they wish to engage in sexual activity, and that both men and women can decide whether they wish to undertake the responsibilities of marriage and parenthood [00:10:30] by the age of 16. Over the last few years, I must admit, as my own Children have grown into teenagers, I've realised that the more removed one gets from that age of 16, the younger it seems to be. But I have to say that as one who was married at 19, I can hardly have cause to say that it is too young. The question we must decide is whether or not a community has a right to say that although some people can make those sorts of decisions at 16, others cannot, [00:11:00] with the deciding factor being not the psychological maturity of the individual but his or her sexual orientation. Some people have suggested that girls are more mature than boys at that age, but the law allows young men to engage in heterosexual activity again. I would like to quote from the Royal College of Psychiatrists, who said there is no significant evidence that at age 16, young women have more ability to distinguish the consequences of their behaviour than do young [00:11:30] men at a younger age. Females may advance more rapidly, but this is more in terms of social competence rather than cognitive ability. Mr. Speaker, there are simply no arguments for a discriminatory age of consent. I ask members to look beyond their own vague anxieties, conditioned over many years to scrutinise carefully the anecdotal and undocumented stories presented as evidence against an equal age of consent. [00:12:00] I ask you to listen to the social research to the clinical experience and knowledge of professionals, and also, and most particularly to the voices of thousands of gay men and lesbian women who lived in misery and fear throughout their early adulthood. The other major issue I wish to address tonight is the proposed amendment to the Human Rights Commission in Part two of the bill. Some very extravagant statements have been made about this proposition. I [00:12:30] have heard people say that clergy will no longer be able to preach, that homosexuality is wrong, that parents will be prohibited by law from passing on their own moral values to their Children and that teachers will be obliged to promote homosexuality to youngsters. None of this is true. Many opponents of the bill have also claimed that although they love homosexuals, they simply hate what homosexuals do for them. Such generosity [00:13:00] of spirit is is catered for by this bill. Firstly, I want to say that the Human Rights Commission act, unlike the Race Relations Act, does not intervene in the area of speech. You will still be able to say what you like. It is concerned with actions such as the provision of jobs or housing or goods and services. Secondly, it is important to note that the proposed addition to the act would forbid discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation. [00:13:30] Members should read the definition clause very carefully. They will find in it it talks of a person's affection or preference, whether it be homosexual, heterosexual or bisexual, and includes any characteristic generally imputed to a particular sexual orientation. Members who are uncertain on this critical issue would be well advised to read some of the excellent submissions made on the bill. The Justice Department report summed them up. [00:14:00] Thus, the weight of current medical opinion, as indicated in the submissions, is that sexual behaviour in the younger adolescent years? Well, I'm sorry, Mr Chairman, I've reverted to a previous part of the speech at 16 years old. Does not perhaps the opposition. Perhaps the opposition would be quiet, and they might actually hear something instead of trying to deliberately provoke me, as they have been doing throughout the bill. [00:14:30] Mr. Speaker, the best exposition of the probable effect of the Human Rights Commission amendment is in the submission presented by the Law faculty of Victoria University. This submission was signed by all but five of the 30 odd lecturers and professors at the law school. It gave unqualified support to the bill and explained very carefully the legal ramifications of Part two. A supplementary submission requested by the committee went into even more detail. It compared the proposal with human rights [00:15:00] legislation of this nature which has been enacted in other countries. It said The law, if amended, will not coerce people into accepting behaviour or activities of which they disapprove. The law faculty members went on to say that Clause nine of the bill was much less far reaching and its potential impact than corresponding provisions and legislation they had studied from elsewhere. I strongly recommend that members read that particular submission if they are having difficulties with part [00:15:30] two of the bill. My belief is that this provision will serve as a trigger to start a major attitude change in the community. For example, employers will no longer simply be able to say, I'm not employing you because you're a lesbian and I don't like lesbians even if that individual employer manages to find another excuse for not employing a person. And we've seen with other provisions of the Human Rights Commission Act that it's not always too difficult to do that, he or she will nonetheless be forced to face up to that prejudice to have to [00:16:00] make an excuse about that attitude to other human beings. Mr. Speaker, I would like to return to part one of the of the bill and finish the quote I started from the Justice Department, which said that the weight of current medical opinion, as indicated in the submissions, is that sexual behaviour in the younger adolescent years, much less at 16 years or older, does not result in heterosexual boys developing a homosexual orientation or vice versa. Fran [00:16:30] General, Wellington Central 16 Sexual experiences tend to confirm an existing sexual orientation evidence given to the committee by a number of homosexual men, both young and older, almost without exception, confirmed the above medical and academic opinion. Mr Speaker, as for the supposed connection between homosexuality and paedophilia and applied threat to younger boys of homosexual activity is decriminalised for adult males. No evidence at all was supplied to the committee [00:17:00] to support this assertion. But there is plenty of evidence to show that paedophilia and homosexuality are distinctly different phenomena with no provable link. Mr Speaker. In the end, it is attitudes towards one another which count in making a plural society work. Legislation can only go a certain way towards making our social system work properly over the last six months have shown a steady [00:17:30] and consistent increase in support for this legislation. Support now running at around 62% of the population members, should not be misled by a vociferous minority who claim that the people of New Zealand are opposed to this measure or that the claimed 800,000 signatures to a petition against the bill represents an informed, considered and freely offered expression of support from the adult community. Many New Zealanders, living quiet [00:18:00] and productive lives in the towns and cities of our nation, are relying on this house to vote to give them their basic rights and law members who are considering voting against these people amongst who may well be numbered. Family members, friends and workmates unknown, perhaps as homosexuals should consider very carefully the impact on our community and on those friends and family members. If this bill should fail, [00:18:30] wants to be young. Mr. Speaker, I have little enthusiasm for the manner in which the mover of this bill has put her arguments before the house. She knows that this is a sharply divisive matter that has been considered by the house. She talks about the entrenched opposition. To her point of view. [00:19:00] She derides unnecessarily the opinions of those who are opposed. She minimises the fact that this House has had presented to us a petition with 800,000 signatures to be of little account. And Mr Speaker, I believe she goes far too far with her proposal. Mr. Speaker, I want to say at the outset, [00:19:30] as far as the opposition are concerned, all members of the National Party will speak and vote on this measure exactly according to their consciences. The matter has not been considered by the National Party caucus as a caucus other than to consider and criticise the manner in which the select committee was cut off at the knees [00:20:00] and was not allowed to complete its task and make a report to this parliament in what would normally be the proper way. That being the case, Mr Speaker, the measure is before us, and as individuals, we have to determine according to our consciences which way we will support or oppose the member's proposal. I want to say this to the house, the question of reform of the laws [00:20:30] that pertain to homosexual acts in private deals with the criminal code, and not with the morality or the public principles or attitudes. This parliament can legislate no more for private morality than it can for public acceptance of conduct that the public in general finds unacceptable. The present law in the Crimes [00:21:00] Act is criticised because it is seen to do the former. While I submit that the proposal of the member for Wellington Central to change the law attempts to do the latter by seeking to equate the law on homosexual acts with those with heterosexual acts. I believe the member and those who support her are in error. In addition, Part Two in our measure obviously seeks [00:21:30] public acquiescence for the argument that homosexual lifestyles and heterosexual lifestyles are the same and acceptability except for the sexual orientation of the people involved. I would advise the house that I do not believe that that is the case, and we're very foolish as members of this house. If we do not recognise the sharp division of opinion in the community over that matter, [00:22:00] I do not accept that there are large numbers of New Zealanders, many of the so called gay community, who live in that state of mind. In fact, the word gay is a far cry from the problem that a number of people a large number of people have regarding sexual orientation. These people need our understanding and we should not. I believe, [00:22:30] as far as adults are concerned, place upon them the additional burden of the fear of conviction and criminality. And I want to say, Mr Speaker, I limit my support for decriminalisation contained in mismeasure to the adult homosexual. I will support only the legislation that provides for an age of consent at 20 Noah. I want to inform the member that I am not [00:23:00] a prejudicial or a prejudiced person. But I cannot accept part two of the bill. I believe that in presenting a measure that is so, why, in its implications, the member for Wellington Central has indeed made her task so much more difficult in bringing homosexual law reform to this parliament. And in a way in which the Parliament would accept Mr Speaker, let me reiterate all members [00:23:30] of this side of the house and speak individually according to their consciences and will vote similarly accordingly. I have indicated my attitude to this bill. Uh, yes, Mr Mr Speaker, it is with some reluctance that I rise to speak on this bill. Yes, The groans and moans have started in the years already. Mr. Speaker, this bill without a doubt, has divided this chamber. It has divided [00:24:00] the whole of this nation. It has divided churches. All Christian churches have been divided upon it. Some churches have come out with fixed statements and have met anger and dismay from some of their parishioners. It has divided communities. It is even divided families. So it is a very divisive bill, indeed. And I don't think anybody would deny that this bill was suddenly just launched upon this house because at the last election, [00:24:30] nobody went to have a mandate to introduce it. I cannot recall any mandate or any member of this house as a candidate stating that he or she would introduce this bill if they did. I certainly had no knowledge of it. And I'm certain that the voting public when the casting their votes, never thought of homosexual law reform as one of the reasons why they should or should not vote for a particular candidate. I listen very carefully [00:25:00] to the member for wait. I believe that the bill he introduced a few years ago would have been far more acceptable had that bill been introduced today or a similar bill. The attitude of the average New Zealanders of Live and Let Live is well known. I believe that overwhelmingly, the citizens of this nature are prepared to live and let live. But Mr Speaker, this bill goes far, far beyond that far beyond it. Indeed, [00:25:30] my own research has shown that the majority of the constituents who I represent in this house bitterly resent the cloak of respectability, which this bill attempts to give. They also resent the fact that Part two of the bill, which I personally Mr Speaker, consider to be the most awful part of the bill. Most animous part is what they find objection to to try and suggest [00:26:00] to the average New Zealander, not all of whom profess to be practising Christians in any way to try and profess to them that they must accept homosexual attitudes and values and the same value as heterosexual will just not be accepted. And I don't care if the law is passed. You will not in my lifetime, I believe, change public attitudes because many people they are not religious bigots. They are not right wing fanatics find [00:26:30] the actions of homosexuals repugnant and they do not want to know them at all. And to have it by law with a cloak of respectability to claim that they are equal rights to heterosexual values is just not acceptable. I know that some gay communities do not agree with that, obviously, but my own electorate has shown quite clearly how they feel. They reflect, quite honestly, my own opinion. I must admit a random [00:27:00] poll of over 500 was carried out not by me but by a reputable person and organisation. And over 72% of them rejected the bill. I realise in fact, that probably provincial New Zealand is more conservative in the main than the main four main centres. I accept that fact. Yes, well, I agree with you. May I say that? The mere fact, Mr Speaker, that something is done by consenting adults in private, [00:27:30] in my view does not remove the matter from public morality. Because if you use that argument and take it to its logical conclusion, you might as well say consenting adults over a certain age can go away in private and practise incest because it is their sexual orientation to do so. That is totally unacceptable, Mr Speaker Jone, Since this bill first came into this house, I attended several public meetings. I want to say that possibly my conduct [00:28:00] at the beginning of this bill was not the best. I am a human being. I felt intense anger at it and disgust. I realise now that they are not the attitudes of responsible politicians. We must listen to all parts of an argument and then not let our own prejudice Blind us to it. I went to those public meetings hoping to learn something. Mr. Speaker, I must tell this house that those public meetings were in utter shambles. The [00:28:30] hatred on both sides of the argument had to be seen to be believed. Anybody who genuinely thinks that the gay community are passive. Quiet, gentle people should have been at those public meetings. I was absolutely disgusted to see Salvation Army officers who, when they stood up to lead a meeting in prayer, were called fascist pigs. They were insulted and blasphemy. Blasphemies were free [00:29:00] and flown around chanting here. We're not even given the courtesy of a hearing. They may have thought that they were being hard done by. Well, so be it. On two of those meetings, Mr Speaker, we actually allowed representatives from the gay community to come up. The incredible thing was that they were heard in absolute silence. Mr. Bray Government, their activities tried to give their point of view. [00:29:30] They were drowned out time and again with absolute volumes of filth and abuse. Mr. Speaker, Putting aside the rights and wrongs of it, the gay community has shown that they are out to get their own way come hell or high water. I do not believe that they did their cause any good whatsoever, Mr. Speaker, a lot of discussion concerning this bill has been around the petition which was launched. I was one of those people who [00:30:00] was active in launching that petition. Attempts have been made to discredit it. Let me just say that I do not know whether the 800,000 people who signed it were over 16 of sound mind and limb knew what they were doing. How could you? But even taking it into the fact that half were wrong and let's I don't think they were. But let's just take that for the sake of argument, it still makes it Mr Speaker, the largest petition ever presented in this electorate [00:30:30] in this house, my own electorate. For the first time, I think in living memory, members of the National Democrats and Labour Party joined forces to go out and seek genuine signatures on that petition. And I am very certain in my own mind that those signatures collected in the electorate of Napier were indeed very genuine. So it just shows you that this bill even reaches across party affiliations. Mr. Speaker, enough of criticisms [00:31:00] for me. I now want to say what I think is wrong with the bill and why it should not be allowed to proceed. There are many moral reasons which Christian folk far better than I can put forward. I do not in any way ever pretend to be a paragon of virtue. I will leave that to others. Why? One of the reasons why this bill and some members smirk, I notice. But let me be serious and say, Mr Speaker, this bill must not in any way. If it is passed by the majority [00:31:30] of this house be allowed to be applied to the armed forces that is both the Army, navy and Air force. It would have a very detrimental effect upon the discipline of the New Zealand Armed Forces as a member. And I think I share it with the members for Oahu, Tamaki and Invercargill who have all had military experience. Let me just say to you that strict discipline in the armed forces is an absolute necessity for their effectiveness. Soldiers, sailors [00:32:00] and airmen are led with their concurrence into an acceptance without question. the command of a superior authority. Discipline, Mr Speaker, is a fragile thing. And to have it affected by the affection or otherwise of people who go into a gay relationship in the armed forces could be absolutely disastrous. Not only that, of course, within the armed forces, there is a lack of privacy. All of us have [00:32:30] been in large barrack rooms with 30 odd people packed in or on a ship in which they're slung from hammock to hammock. This Mr Speaker, in close packed communal living could lead to very serious breakdown in discipline because many people in the armed forces rightly or wrongly, despise gays and their activity. And I can tell you now, I have seen many a fight in a barrack room because a person wanted to commit a gay activity with somebody else who resented it. [00:33:00] One of the other factors why this bill must not in any way apply to the armed forces is that in combat, every soldier is a walking blood bank. The Falkland Islands proved beyond all doubt that the medical services which are now right up in the front line when they require blood, every soldier knows his blood group. He has a tag with it on. Here is a walking blood bank, Mr Speaker. The effect on morale would be devastating if soldiers went or sailors or airmen [00:33:30] required instant blood transfusions on the battlefield. Because you haven't got time to check for AIDS, believe me and your fear of contacting that disease through another soldier's blood, it is absolutely essential that this bill does not apply to the armed forces. It should not apply also to members of the police for very similar reasons for the disciplined force and law enforcement that that force has to maintain. Nor should it apply to prison officers. It could [00:34:00] be absolutely disastrous if it was allowed to be applied to prison officers as well. You know, if it's applied to the armed forces, Mr Speaker, kiss me. Good night. Sergeant Major could well become a reality. Mr Speaker, One of the things that this bill has highlighted it really has. And I believe the member for Wellington Central just touched it in her address. And that is the urgent need for extended research into all aspects of [00:34:30] homosexuality. If this bill becomes law through this house, any chance of conducting proper scientific medical research into the causes or the effects or the needs of homosexuality will be brushed aside. What we need, I believe, Mr Speaker, is what other countries have done before They changed the law in the United Kingdom, they had a Royal Commission of Inquiry named the Wolfenden report. [00:35:00] Before this bill becomes law, it is absolutely essential from my point of view, Mr Speaker, that we have a Royal commission of inquiry into all aspects that this bill tries to create. It is not beyond the wit to select men or women to sit upon that royal commission. They can be drawn from a wide variety of the community. They should be given the broadest terms of reference travelling, if necessary, overseas to see what has happened to other nations are similar [00:35:30] to ours that have changed the law. When that royal commission has then deliberated, Mr Speaker, it should then publish its reports. We can all learn every one of us. No one in this house knows sufficient enough to cast a valid vote in favour of this bill. Therefore, after the commission has published its in its findings for the betterment and the education of us all. There should then be a general referendum. Nobody. As I said in the beginning [00:36:00] of this speech, Mr Speaker has a mandate to introduce or pass this law this bill into law. That referendum should be held at the next election. We've got approximately give or take a month or so, I suppose, two years to do it. I believe that that should be enough. Let the public of New Zealand, after an education report from the Royal Commission, decide. And the reason I say at the next election is not so. To scare the hell out of every member here who probably or may [00:36:30] or may not feel a cold draught around their majorities is because it is much simpler to hold a referendum in the general election. We already hold one every three years now on the liquor report, whether we have Prohibition, national continuance and so on. I believe that this is a topic for New Zealand to decide. I know that people will say that they've come here to govern and that you can't have a referendum on everything. I know that the arguments will come out, but no, no. Bill has divided this nation [00:37:00] such as this one has. I believe that if we do not do that, Mr Speaker, there will be a backlash from the community. This bill will not go away. A repeal to overturn this bill will come into this house. No question about that. It won't go away. And the only way to overcome that, as I said, is to have a referendum. Mr. Speaker, if we look overseas, we can see what has happened. Let me just enlighten the house on something which I don't believe many [00:37:30] people realise in the United Kingdom. It is not an offence for two consulting male adults in private to commit homosexual activities. But the house may be surprised to learn to know that it is offence if there are three now, I just wonder if we are going to amend it. And this is some surprise looks on your faces already. But let me just remind you that will this bill allow three or four or five together to commit homosexual acts? Because the British law does not. [00:38:00] And I think that it should be the same here. Mr. Speaker, as I have said at the beginning of the speech. It's a bill that has divided us. Many people have on both sides of the argument have been extreme. No question about that. I freely admit it, Mr Bray Brook. But one of the fears that have surfaced is that this is the thin end of the wedge. They believe passionately. And I've even got a cutting from a Hawke's Bay Herald Tribune [00:38:30] here of the Fourth of June, where a gay church pastor is waiting for this bill to be published to be passed so that he can then apply for the possibility of gay marriages. I know that a lot of people reject that, and they say it won't happen. But who knows? Here is a newspaper report in which a gay minister is already waiting for it to happen. I find that repugnant. I do not want to see New Zealand pass into law anything which says that [00:39:00] males or females may marry one another. It is unnatural. It is immoral. Mr. Speaker, can I just in closing appeal to the house for reason? I appeal to the house not to show hostility, not just have a shout and scream and match at one another. we will achieve nothing. There has been too much heat and not enough light on the subject already. And I'm as much to blame as anybody. But I say I appeal to you in my final words. Do not pass this bill. Send [00:39:30] it to a royal commission of inquiry. Let us all learn the facts. Then let New Zealand judge it in a referendum. The right honourable Sir Robert Muldoon. Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak not at great lengths, but to put a point of view which I believe will be slightly different from [00:40:00] that of those who find themselves strongly on one side or the other of this issue. I'm one of those who supported the bill introduced by the member for Wait Tora back in the early 19 seventies. I do not support this bill, but [00:40:30] it would give me no great cause for concern if these acts were decriminalised, because that was the attitude that I took at that time in supporting a much simpler bill and one that was not nearly so far reaching. I find myself, however, entirely on the side of the member for Napier, [00:41:00] although perhaps I wouldn't use precisely the same expression in opposition to the suggestions and indeed the effect of Part two of this bill, which makes what I believe to be abnormal behaviour normal. And I think that there would be many thousands of New Zealanders who would take [00:41:30] the same view that I take, namely that it may well be unfair and indeed unreasonable to in today's world put a jail penalty on these acts. But to regard them as as normal goes far beyond [00:42:00] what New Zealand society is ready for At the present time, I'm going to vote against the whole bill and I do that because in the time since the earlier bill was introduced, we've seen a curious phenomenon that of the homosexual and lesbian communities deliberately creating [00:42:30] for themselves a high profile in this society. I believe that it is unnecessary. I believe that it is damaging to our society and I believe they have in fact damaged their own cause by this activity. Certainly they have as far as my vote in this house is concerned. We have seen outside this [00:43:00] building not once but many times, and indeed quite recently, behaviour that would alienate the sympathy of many new Zealanders who otherwise would have been quite objective in their approach to this issue. I just say one word of criticism of the member for Wellington Central and I don't object to [00:43:30] her taking a great deal of time tonight to put forward her analysis of evidence that's been given to the select committee and material that's been put in the hands of members of Parliament. But I have to say to her that I do object to her comment when a considerable number of people came here to parliament buildings to present a petition, [00:44:00] sang hymns on the steps and prayed, regardless of whether you agree with them or not, they came in the name of Christ and they were not, as she called them, obscene. And I think that she did her cause harm when, on that and other occasions, she criticised people [00:44:30] and I, I must refer to the Salvation Army. I could not do what the Salvation Army does every day in caring for those at the bottom of our society, and I don't want to go any further into that matter, except to say that I do hope that in this debate [00:45:00] we have respect for the opinions of those who behave, respectively. I come back to the essence of the matter and I ask myself whether New Zealand society is yet ready for this bill and I say to myself, I think No, I think no, I think New Zealand Society would perhaps accept the first part of it. The decriminalisation. [00:45:30] I don't think New Zealand Society would accept the second part. And then I have to say that my own attitude to the bill is one that I've had on issues such as this, certainly ever since I came into this house and one that I've preached to new members in recent years when, as leader of [00:46:00] the party on this side, I've talked to new members about parliamentary representation, the right honourable Sir Robert melding opposition Tamaki, whose wisdom I'm fond of. And that's Edmund Burke. That and it was he who said. But you don't come here to do the bidding of your electorate. You come here to exercise your judgement. They've selected you because they believe [00:46:30] you have that judgement. And I'm not looking at 800,000 signatures, and I'm certainly not looking at the kind of threats that you dealt with earlier today. I am simply saying that as far as I'm concerned for the reasons I've given, I'll vote against the bill. The only ones. Margaret Hill. Mr Speaker, I have [00:47:00] listened very carefully to the very many arguments that have been presented on this matter. And I must say that I am disappointed and hope that the member for Tamaki will reconsider his position, because I feel that one of the great dangers in this debate has been to succumb to being negatively influenced by people who have become so frustrated in this debate that their voices have perhaps become a little shrill. And I think [00:47:30] we have to understand how those voices became shrill and to understand even more that there are many thousands of New Zealanders behind them who are relying on this house to exercise the kind of judgement which he himself referred to. It is indeed a topic that has created enormous concern from the moment that this bill was brought into the house, the same kind of concern that has arisen on the two other occasions that bills have been considered. And like many members [00:48:00] of the house, I have read as widely as possible on the topic before making up my mind. And it is my view that there is no good purpose to be served by the retention of criminal sanctions against a significant group of the population who are gay. The reasons that I've come to this conclusion are several. Firstly, having looked very carefully through all the reliable literature that there is, [00:48:30] there is no evidence to suggest that homosexuality is a choice or even a lifestyle into which one can be seduced. Secondly, there is much evidence to suggest that sexual preferences are established very early in life, as was suggested by the member for Wellington Central. Thirdly, although the determining factors are very poorly understood as yet and there is a need for more research, there is no evidence to suggest [00:49:00] that the process is reversible. The best that can be achieved is the suppression of homosexual behaviour. Fourth, we know from all sorts of other literature that there is much evidence to show that most human beings need stable, caring, loving relationships and in fact, to deny that is to encourage the kind of promiscuity of which homosexuals are too often accused [00:49:30] and of course, promiscuity is not restricted to homosexuals. Any person who is denied the opportunity for stable relationships is at risk from that. However, prior to the last elections, I pledged to my electorate that should a contentious moral issue arise during this term of parliament, I would consult them by means of a referendum. And I therefore arranged for the Cabinet electoral role [00:50:00] to be updated at my expense and conducted a postal referendum with the help I must acknowledge of a small army of volunteers. I didn't believe it would be honest to conceal my own opinion from the electorate and therefore at all times I have made my own position quite clear. In fact, at the time of the referendum and when I sent out the letter that accompanied the ballot papers, I urged those who disagreed with [00:50:30] me to take particular care to fill out their ballot papers and return them. In fact, the results show that 30% of those polled in my electorate oppose the legalisation of homosexual behaviour that is a minority of less than a third. This this result is in fact completely consistent with the numbers. Who signed the petition validly that is the petition of Keith and others from [00:51:00] my electorate because although the petition has actually claimed 10,649 signatures for carti, careful checking against the role and the habitation index for the carpe electorate resulted in the verification of only 2442 signatures. However, I am prepared to accept that some some of the petitioners would not have reached all of those people who would have supported [00:51:30] their case. And I also must acknowledge that there must be some Carty signatories on other electorate lists. And so I'm quite prepared to accept a threefold increase on that number, which would take us right back to 30%. Similarly, at about the time that the referendum was run, the Hale organisation polled the electorate and the results from that poll showed [00:52:00] at that time that just over 33% of my voters were opposed to decriminalisation the honourable Margaret Shields Government poll result and the referendum make me very confident in asserting that when I come to vote, I shall be representing not only my own view, but just as importantly, the view of the majority of the voters in my electorate. The other matter which was addressed in the [00:52:30] referendum was the age of consent. Unfortunately, some people 17% in fact of those responding chose to give no age at all, so they forfeited the right to determine the outcome of those stating an age at all. By far the greatest number preferred 16 in fact, a far greater number than stated. No age. I did not ask a question on the human rights aspect of the bill. [00:53:00] I'd now like to turn my attention to some of the arguments which have been advanced by the opponents of change. May I refer members to the booklet, which was put out by the Coalition of Concerned Citizens and which the member for Wellington Central has already referred to? It was circulated. I understand to all MPs very recently, and this booklet is the source of the points I shall address myself to, although not I should hasten to add the source of my conclusions. The first point that is [00:53:30] raised is I argued in this book is that the typical homosexual lifestyle is harmful to the individual and to society, and as such, should not be encouraged to support. This argument is, as further suggested, and I am quoting directly. Homosexual behaviour is different from being single and celibate because it is an active force against marriage and family life. Mr. Speaker, I believe there can be few people in this house [00:54:00] who do not know of at least one tragic marriage, which has been the consequence of a homosexual trying to go straight to play out the heterosexual role. The results of such unions are commonly devastating for all. I would remind the member for Whangarei that I happen to know of one of his constituents who is in just that situation. Uh, perhaps they feel unable to tell him about it. The Nonn homosexual partner [00:54:30] and the homosexual partner and most of all, the Children are traumatised by such an event. The experience is quite shattering for all concerned, and I feel that that is a travesty of the kind of family life which we all say we believe in. The second point, which is raised in the booklet is and I quote again. If homosexual behaviour is declared by law to be legal and valid, [00:55:00] it will result in a growth of homosexuality in this country. This is a wonderful example of double think. On the one hand, the opponents of Decriminalisation have railed against what they call the repulsive and unnatural character of homosexuality, and on the other they would have us believe that if it is made legal, we'll all be doing it. The truth of the matter is, as I've already suggested, that sexual preferences are laid down very early in life before we [00:55:30] are consciously aware of them. They are not a matter of choice. To outlaw homosexuality is simply to cause immense human misery. For some, the effect of removing potential legal sanctions will not result in any change in any individual sexual preference, but it will remove the source of misery and potential persecution. Again, I would suggest that the acceptance of homosexuality as a reality [00:56:00] will reduce the incidence of some of the aspects of homosexuality, which people criticise in particular the forced promiscuity of those who must conceal this part of their life from their family, from their friends and from their workmates. Of course, again, promiscuity is not confined to homosexuals. Thirdly, opponents suggest this bill will and again allow for homosexual acts upon young boys who are at an impressionable [00:56:30] age, and it will compel acceptance of declared homosexuals under all circumstances. Despite a broad level of public agreement to the contrary end, this is simply not true. First, the law relating to consent is here in the bill brought into line with the law relating to heterosexual acts. Secondly, there will be no change in the laws relating to indecency. And thirdly, the broad level of public opinion is according [00:57:00] to all the measures that we have been able to take in favour of the bill. The fourth point which has been raised by the concerned citizens, is that homosexuals are typically unhappy people who often hate themselves and society, so that if homosexuality is accepted as valid and of no concern to the rest of society, it will tend to eliminate hope and motivation for those homosexuals who would really like to become normal. This is perhaps the most [00:57:30] damaging and confused proposition of all. First, a condition that is present in 10% of the population can only be classed as abnormal. In the strictest statistical sense, it is much sounder to suggest that it is a normal variant in human development like left handedness and just as immutable to suggest that hope of normality keeps homosexuals with the prospect of happiness [00:58:00] is nonsense. Acceptance and self knowledge is a necessary prerequisite for happiness, and I ask this house most seriously whether we have the right to deny legal acceptance to our brothers who are different from ourselves. Only in this respect I'd like to share with the house a personal story. The story of a family that were neighbours of ours some years ago. The mother of [00:58:30] the family is still a very close friend of mine, and she had a son of whom I was very fond. We got to know him when he was still at primary school, and we started to worry when, as a young teenager, he started to worry from his early teenage years, it was quite clear that something had gone wrong for him. [00:59:00] He had inexplicable accidents. First of all, he went away and tried to starve himself. Then he had a shooting accident, which nobody quite understood. Then he had an accident on his motorbike, and then he overdosed. He couldn't tell his parents what the problem was because he tried once and his mother, who is one of the wisest and most sensitive and certainly the most honest person [00:59:30] I know will tell you this the self. And when this young lad tried to talk to her about homosexuality, of course he didn't come out and say, Hey, Mum, I'm a homosexual. He asked her what she thought about it and what she thought about homosexual law reform, and she replied that she knew nothing about it. She didn't really understand [01:00:00] it, and she went on to say even more painfully that she really didn't think it was all that important. And he just managed to say he thought it was and she thought it was another of his causes. But he never brought that subject up again or not for a good number of years, and he tried desperately to change. He went to Ashburn Hall. He sought psychiatric help. [01:00:30] He even tried to get married. But being the kind of fellow he was by then and understanding the dangers that he was placing others under, he called it off a week before the marriage. But the attitude of society at that stage on somebody who had been brought up as a Catholic who'd been brought up to feel that not only the church, not all the church but [01:01:00] certainly the law was against against him, things got worse and to cut a rather agonising story short. In his suicide note, he said, I've come to the end of keeping on with keeping on.

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TITLE: Parliament: Committee of the Whole House - Homosexual Law Reform Bill (9 April 1986) - part 2
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VOICES: Bill Sutton; Fran Wilde; Geoff Braybrooke; Graeme Lee; Helen Clark; John Banks; Neil Morrison; Roger Maxwell; Roger McClay; Russell Marshall; Trevor Mallard; Winston Peters
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bill Sutton; Fran Wilde; Geoff Braybrooke; Graeme Lee; Helen Clark; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); John Banks; Neil Morrison; Parliament buildings; Roger Maxwell; Roger McClay; Russell Marshall; Salvation Army; Trevor Mallard; Wellington; Winston Peters; accomodation; discrimination; equality; homosexual; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; human rights; law; politics; promiscuity; scouts
DATE: 9 April 1986
YEAR: 1986
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from parts of the Committee of the Whole House during the Homosexual Law Reform Bill, 9 April 1986 (part 2 of 2). This recording contains debate on Part 2 of the Bill which provides anti-discrimination provisions.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: New Labour Party member for Hawke's Bay should be told the rules and traditions of the House. It's, uh, speaking to the point of order, Mr. It's quite it's quite clear that standing orders and speakers rules provide. No, we won't. We won't rehearse the matter. I've I've, uh I've already ruled on the point, Doctor. Bill Sutton. Mr. Chairman, I believe that the mistake. Uh, what what was to Wellington as the member for Ware said, In respect of the member from Tamaki [00:00:30] and I'm a bit close to, uh, the member for Hawke's Bay. What, in fact, was your ruling? I mean, clearly pointed out to members that if I mean, several members have have taken the call and then sought a further call, other members have deferred to them. Um, and they've been allowed to continue. And and that's actually been a characteristic of this debate, that members have had more than one call end on end. But of course, it's up to the member who next seeks the call, whether [00:01:00] or not he defers. Now, I'm not sure whether the member for Hawke's Bay in fact wished to defer to the member for Tamaki, But I take it. He did not. Doctor. Ms. Mr Chairman. The mistake made by the member for further point of order, Mr Honour, to quit. Carry on. Can I? Can I Just the the honour of Mr [00:01:30] Wellington had a point of order. Did he wish to pursue it? Yes, Mr Speaker, if if one wants to reduce it to its technicalities, it is a matter of whom the chairman first recognised. Now I can't believe if the member for Tamaki on his feet, you could recognise him first. And the member for Tay second when the member for Tamaki is on his seat. So we would ask you, sir, perhaps to, um, explain what you've brought [00:02:00] the point of order. Trevor Mallard or standing Order Order. Mr. Mr Chairman, Standing order 287 is very clear on this, and I'll remind the chairman of it in committee. Members may speak more than once to the same question, but where more than one member rises to speak, the chairman shall give preference to a member who has not previously [00:02:30] spoken. I think I think that that deals with the point. Um, Doctor Bill Sutton. Mr. Chairman, all members of this house are equal in this kind of debate. Even the de facto leader of the opposition, Mr Chairman, The mistake made by the member for Tamaki and I believe made by my colleague, the member for Southern Mary is to confuse behaviour with orientation. Now I wish to I wish to respond [00:03:00] to the very serious point raised by the member of Southern Mary because I believe it deserves serious consideration and a proper reply. I believe that the difficulty that she is raising should part two become law is no different from the difficulties that exist under the existing human rights legislation, which which prohibits discrimination, for example, on the grounds of race or on the grounds of sex. Now it would be just as valid [00:03:30] if we take your example for somebody who was letting a place in their house whose child let us say, had had been raped by a man or let us say, been subjected to violence by a Maori or by an Irishman to discriminate on grounds of race or of sex when letting a position in that household. But that is something that this house has considered seriously. [00:04:00] When it earlier passed the human rights legislation and decided should be unlawful. What this proposed change to the human rights legislation provides is that the same kind of protection against the presupposition of illegal behaviour should also apply to people of different sexual orientations. I don't believe that it is valid to assume that every man is a rapist. I know [00:04:30] that some few women in New Zealand take that life, but I don't believe that that is valid. Nor is it valid to assume that every male homosexual will be a rapist. That is totally unjustified, and I believe that it should be illegal to make that kind of assumption on the grounds of sexual orientation. Similarly, I believe it is totally wrong to make assumptions about individual marriages or individuals of any other race [00:05:00] simply on the basis of what one Maori or one member of any other race may have done. And I urge the member for Southern Marin to consider that point seriously. It's not. It's not a matter for hilarity, and I'm grateful to those few members of the house, including the member for Southern Mary who have debated this and other points in part too seriously I have foreshadowed [00:05:30] Mr Chairman a number of proposed amendments to Part two. I wish to mention those that are listed as clauses nine A and nine B because they relate to very specific changes. The intention of these changes is to allow certain narrow forms of discrimination where the existing human rights legislation allows discrimination [00:06:00] on the grounds of sex, and to extend that same right to discriminate to the to the grounds of sexual orientation where it relates to preferential treatment where, based on sexual orientation, where the position is one of domestic employment in a private household. Because that clearly is a particularly intimate kind of situation. And I believe that, as it is now legal to discriminate on the grounds of [00:06:30] sex with such a position, it should also be legal to discriminate on the grounds of sexual orientation. It's a very narrow right, and I urge members of the house who are in sympathy with the basic thrust of Part two to agree to that, and the member for is interjecting and saying, for or against, I'd like to remind the house that that member is one of the members who made it certain that the right to England, of course, would apply from age 16. His behaviour was [00:07:00] a calculated attempt to make it an extreme choice between black or white alternatives and an extreme choice. Now he wants to apply the same extremist kind of argument to part two, and I would like to know if the member for and other members who are opposing Part two are going to take an extreme line here. Also, Mr Banks, Speaker. That was the member that just resumed his seat. The member for Hawke's Bay [00:07:30] that, um, undertook a great deal of pressure from some of his colleagues to vote on the age of 16. And it was the subject of a ruling by the speaker of the House at the time we recorded. He wanted to vote against age 16, but his colleagues said, No, you don't come with us. Hawke's Bay and they forced him into the lobby. We saw it, and it was the subject of some debate. Mr Chairman, the member is incorrectly [00:08:00] representing an earlier ruling in this house. Well, I think the member is is aware of the fact that we don't refer to rulings once they're given. Once they're given their their history. Uh, so I'd call the member back to the bill, and I'd ask him not to, uh, if he would not to use the occasion to Discourse on on Pastor. Mr. Banks. Mr. Chairman, I think listeners out there should be aware that part two of this bill, uh, is the worst part of this bill. The first part has been dealt with. [00:08:30] I voted against it, and so did a number of my colleagues voted against it. But the majority of Labour Party members voted for it. And that was the age of consent for sodomy at 16. And now we've got part two of the bill, which is even worse with far, far more reaching ramifications and very, very bad and deep. And that, basically, is in the most simple terms that if half a dozen homosexuals turn up for a job [00:09:00] and someone's looking for half a dozen workers, they cannot be They cannot be discriminated because of their sexual orientation. And in this case, because they're homosexual. In other words, an employer cannot say to that person You're a homosexual, you're a homosexual. You're not wanted in this job. I'm sorry. you haven't got the job. We're not interested in employing you because you're a homosexual. They cannot no longer do that. Once upon a time, Mr Chairman and I have employed more staff than anyone [00:09:30] else in this Parliament. Anyone else in this parliament? Much more staff, much more staff. Once upon a time, when staff turned up that we didn't like to look at Oh, look up because they were a bit grubby or their hair was too long or something else. We told them your hair is too long. We don't want you out. But now you can't even do that. So the right of the employee, er, to turn down people for any reason has been taken away from him and her, which was a very sad day for New Zealand and for private enterprise, I can tell you. And now if [00:10:00] a homosexual turns up, that person cannot be turned down for employment because that person is a homosexual. Now I've employed more homosexuals in my business interest than any other member in this house. And I'll tell you something, Mr Chairman. Most of them have been good workers. Most of them have been good workers. and in the industry that I come from, there are a considerable number of homosexuals, bisexuals, all sorts of sexual working in it and doing a good job. But what? That doesn't mean to say [00:10:30] that I support the legalisation of the act of sodomy at 16. I don't and I voted against it. And it doesn't mean to say that I stand here and will not stand up for the employers of this country and say they should be able to hire who they want when they want, who they want when they want. If you've got long hair and you don't want to hire that person, you should be able to say You've got long hair, we don't wanna hire you or any other reason or any other reason. If that person is a homosexual, you should be able to say you're a homosexual. [00:11:00] It's not good for my business. I don't want you in this business, But under this bill, under part two of this bill, employers will not be able to do that. Employers are being squeezed as it is now, and their right to employ who they want when they want is under siege in recent years, and part two of this bill will mean that employees will not be able to turn someone down who turns up for a job because of his or her sexual orientation. We live in a democracy. [00:11:30] Private enterprise is the lifeblood of that democracy. And yet the private enterprise, er, the risk take of the revenue created the businessman or business woman. The employer will no longer be able to say to that person, You're not wanted here. The person says. Why am I not wanting? And the person says, Because you're a homosexual, we've got six homosexuals in the place at the moment. We don't want any more of your life because you can't sack them once you get them in. Mr. Chairman, you can't sack anyone these days once you get them in so the person comes in [00:12:00] and you can't get rid of them. So before they come in, you should be able to say for any reason and even part two of this bill addresses the reason of homosexuality sexual orientation. The employer should be able to retain the right to say you are not wanted. You're not wanted. I don't want to employ you, but no. Under this bill, that person will be able to wheel along to a faceless bureaucrat somewhere and have that person hired in that job. The decision by the employer overturned [00:12:30] because of this bill and provisions in part two of this bill. It's a sad day. This is a thorough the evil bill. The member for Wellington Central Kren. She can smile. She's happy because it's going through the house slowly but surely, but it is thoroughly, thoroughly bad. 835,000 New Zealanders signed a petition that supports my chair. Yes, I am going to respond to some of the points that have been made, and then perhaps later on, we can hear from the minister of education. [00:13:00] But I think there have been some comments made prior to the comments on education, which I'd like to reply to. The member for Southern Maori talked about the case of a woman. A mother who has a, um who lets a room, in other words, has somebody living with her family, uh, as a border in order to raise some extra money. And she said, What would happen to this woman in the case of, um, one [00:13:30] of his sons having been, and I wrote down her words brutally sodomised. Would this woman not be entitled to discriminate in future on the selection of her border? Well, I think the member for Southern Maori and I hope she's listening to this should go out to the lobby or if she wants to come over here and read this. New Zealand Statutes 97 77 Volume one numbers 1 to 68 and look at page 401 Section 25 4 of the Human Rights Commission Act, [00:14:00] which says nothing in this section shall apply to residential accommodation, which is to be shared with the person disposing of the accommodation or on whose behalf it is disposed of. The fact is that the amendment moved by the member for Southern Maori is not simply going to protect that woman because she is already protected. What that amendment is going to do is to make it legal for anybody. In fact, it's it. It is going to remove completely from the bill the accommodation clauses. It means that if you [00:14:30] own a block of flats, if you're a large investor such as the member for claims to be, and you own a block of flats around an Oriental bay with 100 units in it, then you can go through the private lives of any of those tenants and evict any of them that happen to be homosexual. Now I Maybe that's what the members of the house want. It is not what the member for Southern Maori presented to this house in her discussion. It certainly isn't the law now, and I'm seeking to make it the [00:15:00] law that you can't do that. Mr. Chairman, the member for Southern Mai, gave us a very emotional speech based on the case of a woman who wants a border, somebody staying in her house and he wants to protect her Children. I think that is, actually it may be an actual case. The member for Southern. I accept that it is an actual case, but the problem [00:15:30] is that woman is already protected under the legislation, and I invite the member to read the legislation. Now it is no use frightening people into voting for an amendment which will have far more sweeping consequences than what the member for southern Maori has told the House, and her amendment certainly will have very strong, strong consequences. No mother or I presume, Father wants to be in a situation where they are exposing their Children to what the member for Southern Maori called [00:16:00] brutal sodomy and the member who dealt obsessively and heavily on Sadow masochism and pre what she called predatory and promiscuous homosexuals gave us no evidence whatsoever to show where in this bill that people are going to be forced to associate in any way or to provide goods or services for people like that. If people are predatory Sodom who brutally sodomised people, [00:16:30] they are criminals and they should be dealt with under the criminal law. This bill is nothing to do with that sort of behaviour. It is to do with discrimination against people on the grounds of sexual orientation. And that, of course, includes not just homosexual orientation but heterosexual orientation as well. And that is that is what is said in the bill, and the member for Tara should read the bill, read the definition in Clause nine, the definition of sex orientation. [00:17:00] The member for Tauranga clearly has not read the bill. Most of his inane comments indicate that. And I wish he'd just take a little time out of the house and go away and read it and perhaps read it in conjunction with the present Human Rights Commission and the Crimes Act, which are already there. Mr. Mr Chairman, the member for Tamaki, used the example of the Boy Scout movement and said that the, um, the Boy Scout movement actually get cooperation from the police and making inquiries about prospective [00:17:30] leaders. Unfortunate. That may be so. I don't know. And if the Boy Scout movement were to protect the Children that are put into their care, I think that is very commendable. But the problem that the member for Tamaki has is that this Human Rights Commission Act does and the amending bill do not cover voluntary organisations. They are exempt. It covers in fact, paid employment because it is paid employment. Mr. Chairman paid employment, which this bill seeks [00:18:00] to protect. It is people's jobs, their incomes, their livelihoods. It has nothing to do with whether or not you want to be a Boy Scout leader and the member for should just listen. Listen and he might learn, perhaps if you can show us the part of the bill where it says the Boy Scouts are covered. We might be prepared to listen to him. Mr. Chairman, there's been a few other things stated about educational institutions, and I want to leave that to the minister of Education to answer. And he [00:18:30] did, in fact, supply the select committee with a lot of evidence, uh, which has already, um, counteracted some of the propaganda, the forced propaganda that's been put about about the bill. Um, and I just want to finish by saying at the moment that the member for Napier told us that this bill, Part two of the Bill, tries to tell us how how to think that is absolutely wrong. And I would be the very last person in this house to try and introduce some method of thought policing into New Zealand [00:19:00] into our way of life. What it does is tell people that in certain areas of action and again, the member for re clearly has not read the bill. Maybe he's incapable of it. I'm not sure where he got to in school, but maybe the words are too big. He should read it to see that this bill talks about what people may or the the the sort of, uh, discrimination, which is outlawed in terms of actions, which is, as I said before in the list, broadly speaking, [00:19:30] covering the provision of goods and services, the provision of accommodation and access to educational institutions. Nothing whatsoever to do with what people think or to do with what people say. Lee. I got two. I'm pleased to to reply to the member Wellington Central and the move of this bill now before the House, sir, what this house [00:20:00] and what members of this house objecting to particularly is the repetition of one phrase in this member's vocabulary. She doesn't believe anyone else can read but herself. And sir, the evidence that she gives to the house indicates, In fact, she is the only one herself who doesn't seem to be able to read or comprehend the facts. And so I I believe it's It's high time that, in fact, [00:20:30] this member who seeks to give very selective comments to to genuine questions of concern about this bill should realise that there's a lot of people listening who in fact are more than ever angered and deeply upset by the nature of her response. Now, sir, let's address these matters. First of all, the question of the Boy Scouts, which has been rightly identified in Tiger Night as an area of particular concern. [00:21:00] And her retort is just a simple shallow that, well, the Volunteers aspects doesn't count. It's only those paid well, let let me advise her that in fact, in case she doesn't know, there are many paid Boy Scout officers in this country. And Sir, let me also tell her that in the case of America, where we have an up to date situation, the paid Boy Scouts of America are currently being sued by the homosexual [00:21:30] association because of their unpreparedness to bend to the situations where there has been a certain states the acceptance of such a law to date. Now, sir, it's indicative and interesting and significant that the homosexual community is suing that particular body. We have said here tonight that the Boy Scouts is one particular body that needs support. I've got on my hand the submission [00:22:00] by the Salvation Army in New Zealand and when making their comments on part two of the bill, they say, and pick up this comment. And, for instance, we would not appoint a male a leader in charge of a company of girl guides, for obvious reasons. Why should we therefore out of order? Why should we therefore, be out of order to refuse to appoint a homosexual male as a leader of a Boy Scout troop? We would not be discriminating against the homosexual because he was a homosexual, but because of the inappropriateness [00:22:30] of placing him in a position of risk both to himself and to the boys under his leadership, sir, that really says it all. A denomination that cares for people and recognises the reality of what discrimination really means, but in the context that they still say that this part two is totally inappropriate. And that is the illustration Now, sir, she also mentions about and replied to the member for Southern Maori about these predatory types. Where are they? [00:23:00] Who are they? These people who indulge in a sadistic practises now, So she knows full well that the militant homosexual community not only in fact talk openly about those practises, it is a part of homosexual behaviour. It is an accepted part of the lifestyle that they openly practise. Where has she been to make such a comment of nonsense to talk about the fact as though that is not part [00:23:30] of today's homosexual lifestyle? It is. And that's what concerns the average good person of this country. And the predatory nature comes by virtue of the fact that the promiscuity, which is inherent in homosexual lifestyle, spills over many people into a very declared predatory form. So when she talks about the question of accommodation and the fact that there is no difficulty, I think there was a reference we [00:24:00] are talking about. A contract has been stated there, sir. That is a contract which does not provide for the contingency she's given to the house. But I asked her also to say, Where is the evidence then, that there has been landlords who have discriminated against the homosexual community? Sir, this bill, this section of the bill is particularly obnoxious. We have gone a long distance regretfully to legalise sodomy. Why should we now [00:24:30] make it a human right? Why should we may now make it a human right and sir, just on it, that simple prefix there are 830,000 people and numerable others who are saying again tonight that this part of the bill is entirely unacceptable. And why should we change the law? The honourable Mr Marshall, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to take up a point which was made, I thought, with some considerable validity by the member for Hawke's [00:25:00] Bay, who sought to remind the House of the importance between discrimination on the grounds of orientation and discrimination on the grounds of practise. And I want to say, Mr Chairman, at the outset that teachers who are involved in homosexual practise can lose their jobs and will lose their jobs if they're involved in boys boarding schools or wherever in that practise. What this part of the bill is about to say [00:25:30] is that they ought not to be prohibited from those positions because of their orientation. The practise is something quite different, and I think, Mr Chairman, it's unfortunate that people have confused the two. Mr Chairman, this bill says that we should not be able to discriminate against people on the grounds of their orientation. We have come a long way from the days when a person who was a white male could virtually be guaranteed that he was free from discrimination. But we set up the human rights legislation to [00:26:00] protect women, to protect people from minority groups and to protect people from minority religious and racial groups. We now recognise that we must give some protection to people who are now discriminated against simply on the grounds not of their practise but of their specific sexual orientation. Mr. Chairman, some members of the House need to remember that the vast majority of teachers are heterosexual. Very, very [00:26:30] few teachers, heterosexual or homosexual, abuse their position as teachers. But there is just as much ground for concern least they should. I have no doubt, Mr Chairman, that there are many lesbian women who teach in girls schools and who teach in girls boarding schools. Complaints about their abuse of their position are extraordinarily rare. I can't recall one Mr Chairman. There is no evidence that homosexual men are more promiscuous, [00:27:00] are more active or are more likely to abuse their position than heterosexual males are. There is no research evidence to support the charge, often repeated in this debate that they will be actively involved in recruitment. There ought to be a greater degree of concern about those heterosexual males who are who carry the responsibility for 90% of our child abuse, 90% of it done by heterosexual males. Mr. Chairman, [00:27:30] this part of the bill gives lesbian women and gay men some of the protection which we now give to other groups in our society. At present, people can lose their jobs not because of what they do, but because of what or who they are. And there are many examples and illustrations of that from the gay community. It is legal at present to deny gay people basic human rights such as equal access to housing, to employment and even to goods and services. And those people have no [00:28:00] legal recourse. And Mr Chairman, it's time that we brought this fundamental human right to cover this particular group in our community. Mr. Chairman, I just want to come back finally to the point that I made at the beginning because I think it is very important a view of some of the emotional stuff we've heard in this debate. There is nothing to stop. There will be nothing to stop a school board from firing summarily a teacher who abuses his or her position by becoming involved in homosexual practises [00:28:30] with boys in a boarding school or wherever. And I want to use this opportunity to dis dis abuse members of the notion that somehow or other by the provisions of Part two, which remove the opportunity to discriminate against people on the grounds of the orientation, that somehow this gives carte blanche to people to do what they like and schools no school board in their right mind would allow that. And this bill doesn't in any way detract from the authority which those schools have now to remove those people from their positions [00:29:00] anymore than that would remove from them the right to fire people because of their, uh, heterosexual practises with students in the schools. And I appeal to members of the House in on this very important human rights issue to deal with the matters which you're in the bill rather than with some emotional supposition. And the member for Hawke's Bay was quite right when he drew our attention to the fact that this bill is about orientation and discrimination on those grounds, not about discrimination on the grounds of practise. [00:29:30] Uh, Mr uh, Peter and I feel I should take part in this debate for a number of reasons. But the principal one is this that, uh, recently I got a communication from a a homosexual group in Auckland which said that I was one of the members who was going to be targeted. And I thought I should tell them publicly tonight that they want to go ahead. That'll make my day, but they will be entering in a path or taking action, which they will severely regret. Make no bones about it. I know some [00:30:00] of these people are, and they will live to rule the day if they think that threat means to a person like myself or some of my colleagues. Now, Sir, the minister for Education had the audacity to suggest that there's no evidence to prove greater promiscuity on the part of homosexuals. He knows that all the evidence from overseas in respect to the incidence of AIDS and its massive spread relates in terms of some of its component to the high incidence [00:30:30] of promiscuity. That's why AIDS has spread with the speed it has spread. He knows that he gets up in the house having commissioned his department quite falsely, to spend public money investigating in support of his argument. He can have no mandate to spend public money to support his arguments on a conscience matter. But he has, and he has attempted to refute his colleague, the minister of defence by such expenditure and to come to the house tonight, sir, and claim that he has no [00:31:00] evidence in respect to greater promiscuity, overrules evidence that homosexuals themselves have given to this house both here and evidence overseas. He knows for what we're talking about. But then again, he's the minister who's who's scared that because he may not be the minister after 87 is doing all sorts of things in education, denying people their democratic rights and, worst of all, blatantly betraying the pre election promises of taking the country [00:31:30] slowly down and getting a consensus on these issues. That's right, that's right. And in most areas he's doing the same thing. So we don't want to hear too much from him in respect to an appeal to reasonableness. We know what his appeal means. Go with me and things will be fine. If you don't go with me, I'll use every devious sub to get my way. Now, sir, the member for Wellington Central has the [00:32:00] audacity to say when Every when anybody opposes her in the bill that the member that the member should read it. What arrogance. That member is so uncertain of herself and her emotions that she has to read every speech she makes in this house. She knows nothing of the law. I tell her right tonight that a tenant who holds that tenancy agreement now cannot be evicted until the expiry of that, uh, tenancy agreement. All things being equal, and it cannot be on the grounds of his homosexual preference, that's the law. Why try and settle something else tonight? [00:32:30] Why try and say this bill should be passed because it offers a new protection in those circumstances, it does not offer anything novel or new in those circumstances, and she should get up and apologise to the House for this continuous continuous course of misrepresentation. Now. Secondly, sir, she said tonight in respect of the bill, uh, that it would offer a new support and help or assistance of defence. In the case of people, uh, who are being prejudiced [00:33:00] against in respect of their gender. That's what she said, she said. Not just homosexual, not just sexual preference, but more, she said. And I can Well, she checks her hands out, she said, Not just sexual preference, but more. And I presume that relates to gender, whether male or female. Oh, I see. Now she wants to backtrack. Well, I would have thought that he heterosexual include two genders, male or female, please, Yourselves and lesbians. You see, [00:33:30] they're members, like the member for Hamilton West, who knows nothing about the law. I mean, he was a PP worker before he came in. That's what he was. The cheek of the man constantly moving from the backbench to the whips place to, uh, to posture, to posture in front of any constituent who may be here from Mike, how important he is to debate keeps his mouth shut. Now, sir, the fact of the matter is that is a no, not a novel new defence that she claims in the case of, uh, the [00:34:00] gender defence, she talks about nothing new in that. So the law is well is well enunciated. Clear. Everybody knows it. Any lawyer could explain it to her and I Why she pursues this course of false in respect to the value of this, Uh, this, uh, this bill, I don't know. She's the kind of she's the person of the course to try to tell this house that we should pass the human rights, uh, clause in this bill because, like the, uh, the homosexuals in Germany, they who were being discriminated against by the Nazis, we [00:34:30] would be so discriminating against these modern people. That is a palpable false, and she know it. Mr. Speaker. Mr. Chairman, I think, uh, I've been tempted to come to my feet to reply, I think, first of all, to the comments made by the member for Tauranga on the on the question of my previous employment. I tell you what, I'll match my accountancy degree with his law degree. Any time Chairman. I did it much faster than he did, [00:35:00] Mr Peters. Really? The the debate has got some parameters. But, uh, perhaps, if the member is wishing to raise that as a part of the debate, he should tell us about his experience at Wellington Teacher's College. I I The member will resume his seat. I call on the member for, uh uh for Hamilton east at the minute. I'm dealing with a point of order just at the present. Uh, I see nothing [00:35:30] really, That I need to rule on on that on that point of order. Although I would ask the member for, uh, for Hamilton West, uh, to deal with the the bill, the relevant sections of it. I understand. There's another point of order on the back. Very brief one, the Honourable Mr Wellington. Uh, I understand that the member for Hamilton West has endeavoured to foretell the day of the next general election and wrote to his constituents No, no, no. It's as simple as that wrote to his constituents accordingly, Mr. Chair of the Point [00:36:00] of Order is he chaired the Select Committee, which heard all the public submissions on the homosexual law reform bill. And I believe a relevant issue before the committee at this point is to use the vernacular, the credibility of the member about There's no look, the member, the member is just abusing the procedures of the house. He has no standing order that he can quote that needs my attention. And, uh, that is taking a mean advantage of another member of the house, and I could certainly disapprove of [00:36:30] it from whatever side of the house It comes, Mr Mallard. Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chen. It's actually pretty hard to, uh, speak with a straight face after that sort of point of order. Mr. Speaker. What? What I'd like to go back to, though, is the is part two of this bill, which, uh and especially to quote from the supplementary submission 372 A of members of the Faculty of Law at Victoria University of Wellington to the committee, which, in actual fact, the member was correct. [00:37:00] I did chair for a significant part of the hearing, chairman. It was a little bit hard to deal with the committee, considering the behaviour, especially of the member for Whangarei, who, of course, was ejected from that committee on at least one occasion. He's done it? Yes. The point of order you proper properly. I believe, uh, halted me when I raised a point of order early. And I accept that, but for the member for Hamilton West to chair the select Committee [00:37:30] to refer back to the procedures, et cetera, in that select committee is quite out of order. The select committee, Mr Chairman, has in fact reported to the house. We've been through the second reading. We're now in the committee stages and surely the member for Hamilton West who is addicted to, um, telling his constituents when the next election. I think the member has made his point, and the point is quite relevant. And, uh, I was about to intervene myself on the matter of relevancy [00:38:00] from the member for Hamilton West. Uh, the question of that select committee stage is now well behind us, and I want him to talk now specifically to part two of this bill. Mr. Chairman, I want to make it clear that whether dealing with part two of the other matters, one should always be aware of communications. Dated the first of April, Mr. Chairman, the Victoria University Law faculty made a made a very good submission to this bill. And I must say, Mr Chairman, it [00:38:30] it almost convinced me to vote against part two because what it did was show that this this part is actually so weak that it's hardly worth supporting Mr Mr Chairman in in a lot of in a lot of areas, uh, including the New South Wales discrimination. They are quite general in the, uh in the basis for which they forbid discrimination, and they talk [00:39:00] of homosexuality per se, covering both orientation and behaviour. This bill, as it is presently framed, covers only homosexual orientation and quote from them. The interpretation we draw from the New Zealand proposal is that discrimination on the basis of a person's known or perceived sexual practises [00:39:30] would not be illegal. This means continuing to quote that it would be legal to discriminate on the grounds that sexual activity per se was regarded as repugnant or morally reprehensible. Thus, a landlord may legally refuse to offer accommodation to persons who engage in sexual activities such as sodomy. By [00:40:00] comparison, they say, the they considered that clause nine of the bill is not as far reaching as the effect of the New South Wales legislation. The they in fact, go on to say on the third page of their supplementary submission. The New Zealand bill is in fact wider, more complete than that legislation and that it out laws discrimination based [00:40:30] on heterosexual and bisexual orientation as well, whereas in the new South Wales Act. It's confined to discrimination on the basis of homosexuality. It is therefore a more logically complete provision and would prevent discrimination against people on the basis that they were heterosexual in their sexual orientation. And for people who this [00:41:00] is not. The effect of this is not clear. I want to tell you that that means it cannot. A person employing in a massage parlour cannot say to someone No, we won't have you because you're not gay. What this bill will do will say that it doesn't matter on of what sexual orientation people are. They cannot be discriminated against, male or female, gay, [00:41:30] straight or bisexual all, all all six combinations that obviously interest the member for this. So I just want to make it clear. I want to make clear to the house that quoting again it will still be open for landlords, for example, to refuse to accept a homosexual couple as tenants on the grounds that he or she does not approve [00:42:00] of the sexual activity that she or he believes them likely to engage in. In actual fact, they are, they will be able to say to a prospective tenant, I hate you. I don't hate you as a homosexual, but I won't give you accommodation because I don't like what you do. Uh, Mr Roger Maxwell, Mr Chairman, and rising to speak to this part Provision part two of the bill. [00:42:30] Uh, I just want to say that, uh, I'll be intending to vote against the this provision of the bill. And in so doing, I've had the opportunity to reflect on the submissions to the committee of which I attended on many occasions. And I would have to say that having sat through a large number of the submissions, one would have to have compassion for those who have strong homosexual orientation, the 25 or 10% whatever individual submissions would have of people [00:43:00] in that category. But I believe on balance, it's important to realise that the bill will, in the long run, serve no useful purpose of my view and reflecting on that evidence, Mr Chairman, I recognise that, and indeed, there were some intense feeling from some of the people who made submissions that they were being discriminated against. And in fact, many people were very sensitive about that matter, [00:43:30] I believe, and as a result of cross examination, I am sure that some of that was because of the uncomfortable way they felt about the orientation. Uh, and my concern would be that by passing this particular provision, indeed, we may well lead to a situation where there there will be a series of ill founded allegations made with the subsequent problems that that will create against individuals who currently [00:44:00] uh, are either inside or outside the law. I would make the point, Mr Chairman, in this respect that the law will not change people's attitude and that when we seek to put law into place, it should be able to be effective. And I would suggest that no matter how many provisions you put in this particular legislation, you will not change people's attitudes. For example, you're not likely to change the attitudes [00:44:30] of some healthy young man sitting on a building when they see the attractive young lady going across the road, and you will not stop those individuals or others making there is of comments about some other individuals whose characteristics they may feel that there is some humour in Mr Speaker. Mr. Chairman I, an earlier speaker, talked about the discrimination that would occur if this bill was not passed. The group he were talking about was [00:45:00] described as of homosexual. I accept that they may well find that there is some. They are the brunt of some discrimination. But I would suggest, Mr Chairman, that they may not be any more discriminated against or disadvantaged than some other individuals in our community who may have characteristics which may from time to time engender some ridicule or O by other members in the community. To [00:45:30] chairman the question, I believe that we should ask when we address ourselves to this particular provision. Part two of the bill is, would should we deny rights of one group with by replacing it with dubious benefits for the other? And I would suggest that there's been increasing evidence giving here tonight, just as there was during the submission to the bill that in fact, once again on balance that we should not do so. And uh, mention has already been made of the scouting [00:46:00] fraternity, and I had the opportunity of looking out the notes Mr Chairman, once again, on which I noted as a result of cross examining cross examining it is undesirable to have people with homos strong or homosexual orientation, operating and having control over the young men which come under their jurisdiction. And in fact, they went further to suggest that it is undesirable to even place people with that sort of orientation [00:46:30] in a position of temptation. Now, I could go further, Mr Speaker, but I believe in the time available I would just say that that is a grand example, if you like, of a matter of, of looking at this particular provision and making a decision on the balance of the matter. And I would have to say, as I said earlier, that I will come out against it now. There have been other examples made, Mr Chairman, where exemptions should be made. The question Another question, which we must [00:47:00] ask, of course, is where do we stop, Mr Speaker? The amendments that I've heard thus far may be well intentioned, but as Mr Speaker, Mr Mr Maxwell. All right, Mr. Write to Mr Chairman just to conclude. Mr. Chairman, thank you for the call. Uh, the amendments that have been foreshadowed the ones which I have uh, heard thus far may be well intentioned, but In respect of the fact that the [00:47:30] 16 age limit, which has already been endorsed, I find that I cannot support the bill. Uh, those amendments that I heard thus far because of that reason they will be, in fact adding strength if you like to that provision on part one of the bill Mr Speak chairman, I started off by saying that as a result of the evidence that I've heard in the committee and the argument thus far, I find that I have to make a decision which is one based on [00:48:00] balance. I accept that some individuals in our community, as a result of their strong homosexual orientation, need the compassion of the community. I believe that as a result of this long and protracted debate that has taken place in the House and the public, that there will be a much better understanding for those people. But I believe that the bill is not the solution to the problem. And for that reason I'll be voting against the bill and this particular provision in particular. Thank you, Mr [00:48:30] Morrison. As I've already said in the previous speeches on, uh, this Bill, I like most other people in this country would not like to see anybody persecuted, and I think there would be a very, very small majority of people in this country who would agree. Indeed, I may only say one or 2% who would agree with, um, a section of our society being persecuted because of some sexual orientation. [00:49:00] But having said that, the bill strikes at the very basic beliefs of the majority of New Zealanders. The majority of New Zealanders, uh, from any walk of life have a have a basic feeling about what is right and what is wrong. And there are without a doubt, the majority of people in New Zealand has a basic deep feeling of unease about the second part of the bill, which seeks to give human rights to people of a different or [00:49:30] sexual orientation and a different sexual orientation, which, which, which many people would agree, um, produces nothing, uh, nothing apart from, uh, normal sexual orientation, who, which produces, of course and propagates society and has an ongoing society society. Now there are thousands of people, many people who have a [00:50:00] very deep feeling, and you're really dealing with the deepest emotional feeling of human beings. When we get into this area of of, um, the human rights part of this bill, I find this part of the bill far more difficult to, um, to support than the first part. And I think thousands of New Zealanders would agree with that. But thousands of New Zealanders haven't said that also have a basic, very, very basic feeling that there is something basically wrong with this type [00:50:30] of sexual orientation or they aren't Don't feel happy with it, or they feel very, very ill at ease with it now with a deal that also strikes very close to the fundamental, uh, freedom of choice. And we've had the, uh, case brought up tonight of perhaps a pensioner living alone in a house who who, uh, takes in a border and then fines. And that pensioner could be a very, very deeply committed, um, religious person of not necessarily [00:51:00] Christianity, but quite many religions. Who would find then that the border was a homosexual and may find it very, very difficult under the sections of this bill to evict, uh, that border because of, um, because of the way the human rights, uh, part of this bill is structured now. The member for Eden claimed that every person has a right for decent respect in the community. Now, of course, everybody would agree with that. But what has have to what has [00:51:30] to be remembered is that respect has to be earned. It can't be imposed on anybody else. It has to be earned. Also, we've had brought up by the member for Napier. Um, the situation in our jails. Now, if we assume that this thing could drift and that's and there many, many people in our society who have deep concerns about this whole area who have deep concerns about it, are concerned with the drift that we are taking with this type of bill and various other bills in this area. [00:52:00] It's the drift, the general decline or the general drift in a direction which they find concerning. Does that mean if we are going to have some some kind of, uh, sexual connection between males and jails that we will then have to be looking at conjugal rights for other people who are in jails? That, uh, leads 1 to, uh, 1 to wonder. Now I want to bring up a very very difficult issue which any employer who's employed people will find with this part of the bill now, [00:52:30] this part of the bill can make it very difficult to dismiss the person who is in the employer of an employer. It makes it even more difficult, because if that person who isn't fulfilling their job correctly isn't pulling their weight isn't doing a decent job When there are other people waiting for a job and isn't satisfying, the employer in a reasonable way could claim that they are being dismissed for sexual orientation. [00:53:00] And that would be extremely difficult, extremely difficult to prove. And, uh, a very, very trying situation on employers who are already suffering from a very trying situation when it comes to employing people. And it could leave itself open to be misconstrued in many, many ways because the employer is then left with the problem of having to defend himself, having to defend himself against a claim which could be totally outrageously wrong. But that would then [00:53:30] put him in the situation where he has to defend the dismissal of an employee for something quite other than sexual orientation. But it raises that very, very difficult situation. Uh, Mr Lee and I want to, um, pick up the point. When I last spoke on my first five minutes and my comment was to ask the question, Why should this law be changed? And so I just want to give [00:54:00] one comment that hasn't been picked up to date. And that is this. That the meaning of the change, sir, would be to introduce a new standard of right. What I mean by that is that in fact, rights will be given by virtue of this change. This law, if it happens on the basis of behaviour, sexual behaviour, so rights are otherwise associated. As we all know, in terms of race, religion [00:54:30] and gender, this bill effectively, in effect, be gives a new basis of sexual behaviour. Now, sir, that is totally inappropriate and totally wrong. And I wonder also whether the House understands exactly what is going on in the international homosexual community in respect to this particular human rights provision. Sir, [00:55:00] around the world, this clause, almost in the same wording, is being employed in attempts to get changes in various states and various countries. The same wording set is being employed as being carefully assessed to give the maximum advantage to the homosexual community. And the reason they want it is this. Firstly, they want to be seen as a minority group [00:55:30] and in the context of being acknowledged as a minority group, they are seeking to obtain rights that are not available to the average citizen. They secondly, want acceptance. But indeed it's more than that. It's not just acceptance. They're seeking status by the change that's being sought in this part two Human rights provisions section. And of course, sir, they thirdly want to promote their cause. And that will be indeed [00:56:00] greatly enhanced by the provisions that they will enjoy in this discrimination facility. Non-discrimination facility. I said, Let me return to an earlier comment made by the minister of education, and he has spoken sir about issues to do with the classroom. But I call him to task and suggest that he [00:56:30] has accepted very grave responsibility unto himself for the white washing and blinkers on approach that he has conveyed. So he has certainly accepted and acknowledged that there are homosexual teachers. What he didn't say is that within the teaching framework today, and indeed for some years There has been an organisation called the Gay Teachers Organisation. So the gay teachers have existed for years, and they openly [00:57:00] and blatantly talk about this time when this particular section will be passed and they will be able to expand what they believe is their rightful role within the teaching fraternity. That should concern every New Zealander. What should also concern every New Zealander is that right now, at this year, with applicants before teachers, college comments are being given by interviewers, and so this is can be documented. Would you [00:57:30] would you be prepared to teach homosexual lifestyle as an acceptable, alternative, viable lifestyle? And, sir, I have knowledge of people who have said no to that question, and they have not been accepted. I don't believe, sir, that I know about the other issues that may have been relevant to that case. But [00:58:00] each one of those people, in my judgement, were evenly suitable and highly qualified and the right sort of person to be a teacher. They made this tight, but it be robust. But the member for Hamilton West, who presided over the Select Committee hearing, is on this bill having announced the election date on the front page of No one believes this member. I mean, [00:58:30] what is the point of order his interjections and you come to the point, please? Well, I shall. It's a matter of interjection, and it is a matter of interjection by a member who is quite distant from his customary seats. I mean, it's an old ruling and an old convention. If he had said, Well, what time of the night is it? OK? But he said something quite different. And, you know, [00:59:00] I can assure the honourable Member that, uh, I'm satisfied. The member for Hamilton West has been put in that seat to carry out certain whip duties, and he's acting as whip. Uh, I'm not the he the member for Hamilton West has not been interject, interjecting excessively, and he has not shifted his seat for the purpose of taking advantage of interjections. So in that way, he has not, uh, in any way breached standing orders. And while I listen to the comment [00:59:30] that he made just now is a comment which does come across the house now and again, it's not saying that the person is dishonest. It's only saying that he's not believed That's quite quite a different emphasis altogether. Mr. Lee? Yes, Dr Cullen. Question a ruling. But I think I should make something clear in case there's any misunderstanding. The member for Hamilton West is not acting as a whip. He is one of if you like the co promoters of the bill, working with the member for Wellington Central, [01:00:00] working with the member for Wellington Central and is keeping the book. But he's not acting as a whip. There are no whips operating on the government's side this evening, right? Thank you. I should have recognised that there's no whip operating. Uh, I had, uh, assumed that because he was sitting in the whip seat. III. I don't think that that makes any difference to the ruling. The, uh for whatever reason, the member has shifted his seat there. He is not interjecting excessively. And I do not believe he has shifted his seat for the [01:00:30] purpose of taking advantage of interjections. And, uh, I have, uh so I think that ends the point. I'm sorry to have to correct my colleague, the member for ST Kilda, but the member for Hamilton West is not a cop promoter of the bill. He's simply sitting in my seat, and I don't think that that's really not a point of order. It's a point of explanation that I need to rule on and do anything about Mr Lee. Thank you, Mr Chair. You have [01:01:00] about a minute. Uh, I say about three quarters of a minutes ago. Thank you, Mr Chairman. The illustration that I've just given to the house about that applicant for a teaching position is not only disgraceful, it's abhorrent. But the fact is, it's real. It's real. And it's happening. And that illustrates to me. And I believe everybody else listening as to the implications and to what we might expect beyond now that is, prior to any bill being passed. Now, sir, we all know [01:01:30] that the POST-PRIMARY Teachers Association has repeatedly passed me, uh, agreements to say that they are in favour of the passage of this bill passed in, passed unamended. The even the women's sections, uh, has also been, uh, passing remits to say the same thing. So that's the That's the situation. And that's the current climate of the education system. And we are talking about exacerbating that by this bill. Mr Bray. Brooke. [01:02:00] Mr. Chairman, As I said in my previous contribution to the committee of the House, I opposed part two of this bill. I oppose it because it is unnatural for this country to be told by its parliament what it can discriminate against and what it cannot. It will not work. It is totally against New Zealand's nature. And the average New Zealander, irrespective of what Parliament may pass, will never accept part two of this bill. I want to tell the house why I think [01:02:30] looking at the experience of other countries, why New Zealanders will discriminate against the gay community of this country. I want to read if I may, Mr Chairman, with your permission, a few facts and figures that have come from Australia just across the Tasman, they are that 70% of all venereal diseases treated in Australia are homosexual in nature. Oh, well, I'm prepared to table this and, uh, you can have a look at it for yourself. [01:03:00] I'm prepared to table it. You can look for it. Mr Speaker and Mr Chairman, Rather AIDS reported cases double every two months in Australia. It is estimated that 300 men will die from AIDS in Australia within 18 months, Mr. Chairman, that will make people discriminate against the gay community. Half of the homosexual community in New South Wales have the AIDS antibody. It is estimated [01:03:30] that over 100,000 Americans have the AIDS virus. Half of these unfortunates will die within five years. Mr. Speaker. More young men die of AIDS between the ages of 15 and 19 in New York and San Francisco of AIDS than they do in car accidents. That is the scourge which is waiting upon us and without being melodramatic. And it's no good trying to laugh and grin and think [01:04:00] it will not happen in New Zealand. It will. It has happened in Holland. It has happened in London. It has happened in the United States. It is happening now in Australia. And as sure as day follows night, it will unfortunately happen in New Zealand. I'd like to ask the promoter of the bill whether or not she has read the article by Mr Noel Mosen, a former gay person in this country. I want to read to the house why he will never agree to Part [01:04:30] two. That gentleman says I oppose the current law reform bill because in my travels across the world, I have never come across a country that has put homosexuality on a par with heterosexuality. No other country has swallowed the lie that homosexuality is a normal life style. He is so true indeed, he goes on to say, and this will be interested. I know, because it is feared that there will be gay travel agencies in New Zealand as there are overseas, and you will not be able to discriminate [01:05:00] against them, he said. I went for a holiday in Amsterdam one year. Well, my colleague from Hamilton East has had his say he can have another one. I'd appreciate the fact if I could just have mine and he could just control himself a little. Whilst we can we talk on this bill, Just Mr Chairman, who goes on to say, Whilst I was in the United States, I was shown an article in a gay magazine about the New Zealand [01:05:30] Homosexual Law reform bill. It is eagerly anticipating being able to have holidays in New Zealand, which would include safe sex with 12 year old boys without fear of punishment. If you're under 21 that is already, it is alleged, is appearing in gay magazines in the United States. Now I have no definite proof except the publication of this article and the word of a former gay person. But if that is true, then we should be on our guard. Indeed. [01:06:00] And there will be discrimination against the gay community by the heterosexual members of New Zealand's community because I can tell you now if there is a proliferation of gay bars, gay dance halls, gay churches, gay community centres, gay massage parlours, et cetera. As has happened overseas, then gays will be discriminated against irrespective of what the law may say, because the average Kiwi [01:06:30] will not tolerate that type of behaviour. I believe that unfortunately, in spite of all the pious words that have been said by the promoters of this bill that this bill will promote the spread of AIDS when that happens, I believe unfortunately and I mean unfortunately, there will be a public reaction against the gay community of New Zealand. People are already refusing to go anywhere near those people when they should be [01:07:00] treating them. Nurses, doctors in some cases, firemen, others, policemen, traffic officers, et cetera. The discrimination, Mr Chairman, is already there. This bill will not help it. Mr. Chairman, The member for Hamilton Sorry for Napier has brought up the issue of this magazine, which was distributed throughout the house during the dinner hour to members called Shaker. And it actually has, on the front [01:07:30] a picture of a man named Noel Mosen who claims to have been set free from homosexuality. I think the house should know something about this man because it is quite pertinent to the debate, because this man has provided much of the evidence which I understand the opponents of the bill are using tonight. Mr. Mosen was in fact, in England in 1984 and he got help from a firm of solicitors over there called Win Stanley Burgess in getting what he called political asylum [01:08:00] in England on the grounds that if he returned to New Zealand, he will be persecuted under the present New Zealand law. And while he was in London, in fact, he contacted the Australasian gay rights group there and they assisted and in fact, they sought some information from New Zealand, which and some information was about the to the law, et cetera, was provided in good faith by the New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society, which is a very, um, quite an establishment group, [01:08:30] in fact, and it was provided in good faith by then, also by the Lesbian and Gay Rights Resource Centre. Both of these organisations, in fact, had correspondence from the lawyer of this man Mosen, while he was in, in, In, in London. He also, um, according to the Australasian Gay Group, there made sexual overtures to one of the leaders of the group and those were not taken up. Um, he told this person that he was in London to play with the London [01:09:00] Symphony Orchestra. Um, he also said in his deposition made out by Win Stanley Burgess, uh, that he had been excommunicated from the Anglican Church by the Bishop of Auckland. Um, he said in his deposition that he had been a leading gay activist in Auckland in the late 19 seventies. Um, none of these things were, in fact, correct. And it was interesting that all this occurred in 1984 when the fact that, according to the interview in this magazine distributed tonight in 1983 [01:09:30] Noel Mosen arrived in Tunisia where he was converted and cured of his homosexuality by a, um Anglican vicar There. Now, Mr Chairman, the the this this man's case is extremely bizarre. He left New Zealand went to Europe, said he was persecuted there. He has claimed that he has been a leader of the homosexual community in New Zealand. That is not correct. They have rejected him, and in fact, they have been [01:10:00] appalled by his behaviour and by the fact that he did have, um, criminal proceedings. He was subject to some criminal proceedings in New Zealand. And that is not the sort of thing I will tell the member if the member wants, uh, mates of his colleagues in the house who are in fact on the same side as him in this issue. If he wants those personal details published, that is fine. Maybe I'll do them next week after consulting with his friends in the house to see if they really want that sort of thing. [01:10:30] Said under the shadow of privilege in this house, I would suggest that they ask some of his friends in this house that this man is not a man whose word can be trusted. He is being used as one of the major sources of evidence against this bill, and it is quite clear from his own personal record that he is not the sort of stable object of personality that should be used in these circumstances. And he is certainly not a person who is acceptable by the [01:11:00] gay community as typical of them. Not for the reasons he says in the magazine here, because he was cured so-called, but simply because of his own appalling personal behaviour pattern. And I want the house to bear that in mind if they want the proof, I'll present it next week after having talked to some of his friends in the house to see whether they are quite happy about that sort of thing. Being said in this house, Uh, Mr Peters, we had a very [01:11:30] interesting series of allegations made by the member and the chair she cannot pretend not to be able to substantiate. Tonight, Uh, she gets up, sir makes every sort of vile allegation imputation that is possible to make all the innuendo in the world. And when she's challenged, it substantiated, she says. Ah, she will next week. She will next week. Now listen, it's no good. The member for East Cape flicking her eyebrows at me. I'm the wrong person. She's wasting her time. [01:12:00] She's wasting her time. Sorry, I know that. I know that hope springs eternal, but I tell her, don't waste her time. Reflect their eyes somewhere else, but not on me. Please, uh, to get back to the serious to get back to the serious debate, The fact is that the part of that man's statement which he objects to, it would be, no doubt the claim [01:12:30] of the high incidence of promiscuity. And I'm a sexual. Does she, uh, deny that there are research statistics overseas which would substantiate the fact that, uh, 70% of homosexuals aged between 19 and 55 had more than three sexual partners per week? Do you deny that that there is that there is ample evidence to support that allegation And if she does, [01:13:00] let us see. Let us see her look at some of the evidence which came before the Homosexual Law Reform Committee. Uh, sorry. That came before the Select committee considering the homosexual law Reform bill and She would then know that what this man is saying is supported by that evidence. And it's not good enough to get up tonight and talk about establishment figures as being the homosexual law reform group, being establishment figure that I would never, ever thought that would be the case. [01:13:30] But secondly, to talk about a point of order the honourable Mr Wellington very briefly again, one of the problems. One of the problems, Mr Chairman, is that the member in charge of this bill has a very, very sensitive microphone in front of it. I've had correspondence about her and comments and rejections in inverted commerce instructions. Now I would suggest, Mr Chairman [01:14:00] that the member in charge of the bill, like a minister, say, estimates or piloting a bill through the House should be required to restrain itself. Yeah, no, that's, uh, that's a a perfectly reasonable point to make that that interjections should only be rare and reasonable. And I thank the member for raising the point, but I'm certainly aware, uh, of the member in charge of the bill, and, uh, I've heard interjections from time to time, and we'll keep an ear on them. Mr. Peter. The fact is that the, uh uh, the opposition to this bill is not [01:14:30] going to be persuaded by the, uh, manner the member for Wellington Central. She can laugh and Scott, but I tell her, and within a very short time, within a very short time, she will be held as the principal person in New Zealand responsible for the fastest growing medical anomaly that this country has. That's what she will carry on her shoulders for the rest of her life. And she can, uh she can pretend that all the evidence which she has heard thus far is not what it suggests. [01:15:00] That is where liberality in this matter has been visited upon various states in the United States, they have the highest incidence of AIDS that they have the highest incidence of aid. There is no law in, uh, San Francisco preventing, uh of the type of which we have in this country existing today. And, sir, that has not seen an educational process leading to a downturn in the incidence of aid. Nothing of the sort. Rather, sir, it has now become the number one problem for young men in [01:15:30] New York. The number one medical the cause of death of men in New York at this point in time, and she would have that visit upon this nation. The fact of the matter is, sir, on the percentage of increase if one member in this house had it had AIDS today on just as an example of the community, something like 15 or 20 will have within three years. That is the speed with which it is growing overseas. And that's the speed at which it may well grow in this country. We have a chance here because of our geographic isolation to turn back. Uh, [01:16:00] this this is what has been described as a plague. And she pretends, sir, that it is a cause. The plague itself is a cause to support this bill. It won't stand up. It just won't stand up on any of the evidence. And the opponents of this bill tonight, sir, want to make that very clear. They can go on their own hedonistic way and pass this bill. Uh, we will not have it on our conscience as to the consequences and the results. We know full well, sir, that it'll be us so that the taxpayer will have to pay for the cost of it. [01:16:30] We'll be the ones that she will call upon shortly to provide all the educational funding, all the medical backup, all the research necessary to try and fight this dreadful disaster. She will call upon us the taxpayer to do us and the rest the rest of the community to pay the cost. And yet, sir, the passage of this bill, the way it is framed at this time, will be one of the principal causes for that disaster expanding and increasing in our in our country. And it's a sad day when a person [01:17:00] who may be thinking of getting out of politics decides that they will put their stamp on the legislative process by passing this sort of legislation. That is precisely what is happening here, isn't it? That is precisely what is happening is it, isn't it? We've got a member who is advancing two or three significant chairman just to get the record straight. I'm not thinking of getting out of politics. I'm going to be around for a few more years yet, I'm afraid, member, for [01:17:30] I think we should also get the record straight on the Who are in fact the homosexual law reform. And of course, the head of that organisation currently is Jim Robb, a highly respected elder of the Presbyterian Church academic in Wellington. And I understand happily married. Yes, he is. Somebody says over here who apparently is a former colleague of his. Yes, he is. I would say the Minister of Justice is the judge of happy marriages [01:18:00] from my experience observing his own marriage. Um, Mr Chairman, the member for I I must be corrected on one claim that he made he talked about the incidence of AIDS in San Francisco and New York. Uh, and, um implied that the reason why they have a high incidence is because they do not have laws such as we currently have, um, making it a criminal offence to engage [01:18:30] in homosexual activity. What he forgot to mention as usual, he has only provided half. The information Is that in fact, the highest incidences of AIDS in the United States are found not just in New York and San Francisco, but in the state of Florida as well, which has quite punitive legislation which has quite punitive legislation which has quite punitive legislation regarding homosexual behaviour and so I think it seems pretty clear. And when you look around [01:19:00] the world as well that in fact the disease of AIDS is no respecter of the law. And it is there are quite other conditions removed from the state of the law which act upon whether or not there will be a high incidence of AIDS in one city or a low incidence in another city. And of course, one of these characteristics is just the simple state of internal migration with an country to populations of demographic changes. The other thing is, he said, that no noticeable decrease in the growth [01:19:30] of the incidence of AIDS in San Francisco. That is quite wrong, too. I have not got the figures on me tonight, but I will send them to the member tomorrow. The member will be sent them tomorrow in the mail and I would ask him to read them very carefully and also perhaps he might be interested in hearing what was told to me by the San Francisco health authorities when I visited there late last year, when they when they said by the married couple that took me out for dinner. The man happens to work in the office of the director [01:20:00] of health in San Francisco, and he told me that in fact, we must have this bill passed in New Zealand. If we are going to be able to in any way deal with the AIDS we need it to be, we need it to be able to run properly and effectively the public health education campaign, which is the only way you deal with AIDS. It isn't curable. The member knows this. The member for Tarana knows that we have to stop [01:20:30] people getting AIDS, and we won't stop them getting AIDS while they're still in the closet. To hear that the member and the chair treat this debate tonight is just an academic kind of an exercise. She stands up with her clever arguments in her opinion, hands in pockets, refuting any argument that's put up concerning this bill or attempting to refute it. Mr. Speaker, I would imagine [01:21:00] it must be time when we spend the whole of this evening talking about rights. It must be time for the constitutional expert to enter the fray and give us his his opinion. I believe uh, I believe there's probably few in this house more equipped than the deputy prime minister to give us the wisdom and benefit of his long skill and knowledge. I would hope that he may take a call, [01:21:30] and that may encourage the prime minister of New Zealand to also tell this nation what he thinks about these issues when he's finished his supper. Why can't the prime minister of this nation also give us his academic background and the reasons why this bill should or should not be passed? I find it quite incredible that the member for Wellington Central would look to clever little points to refute the medical facts. If we were debating [01:22:00] the, um, the prospect of banning smoking or encouraging smoking, would you tell us that the evidence doesn't show that smoking contributes to cancer? Is that the kind of evidence that she would bring forward? Or would she resort to telling everyone else in the house that they can't read as well as she does? What a hopeless, stupid, innocuous, nonsensical way to treat the matters of [01:22:30] this moment. The people of New Zealand view these matters very seriously. 830,000 of them of them to start with, signed a piece of paper to say they didn't want this nonsense. Now, I don't know how many more than that would have signed had they had the opportunity or had they known about the implications of this bill. Now I want to ask the members on the other side, and I want to hear from the Deputy Prime Minister some time in the course of these debates and the prime minister of this country, [01:23:00] what they think about these issues. Surely the nation has got a right to hear from those two individuals. They lead this country, they represent this nation overseas. And I believe that we should hear from those particular individuals, particularly Deputy Prime Minister, because of his background. A point of order. Mr. Wellington, we're back to the chair, conversing with the Deputy Prime Minister. I can't Sorry, I can't hear them speak up again. [01:23:30] My point, sir, is that there is the potential for disorder in that the member in charge of the bill Oh, well, amongst other things, amongst other things, is standing with her back to the chair, conversing with the Deputy Prime minister when indeed the member for Moana is asking of the member for Wellington central proper questions about the bill. Now the member should be seated. As indeed she now is [01:24:00] Tell us what's the point of audit? Well, that you should keep a little bit of order, Mr Chair. Well, I'm I'm not sure. I'm not sure that I've got anything to rule on here. The, uh, the member was having a conversation with another member. She's in charge of the bill. Um, she she would she would want I'm sure to be attentive to to important points. She assures me that she's listening. I think, uh, I think we've got to take a word. Thank you, Mr Chairman. I would value [01:24:30] the opinion of the deputy prime minister. And I would want to know from him, for example, whether it's true that the implications of part two of this bill mean that giving special rights to homosexuals takes away the rights of others. Now, this is part of the tonnes of reading material that have been given. I want the opinion of the Deputy Prime Minister, not the wimp that's sitting in the whip's chair. I want to hear from the deputy prime minister who has some background knowledge in these [01:25:00] matters to do with rights and human rights and unbridled or bridal power or whatever the name of the book was. Can you tell me that it can even make those others guilty until proven innocent? Once the homosexual makes the accusation? Is there some implications there? Or truth of that matter? I would value the opinion of the deputy prime minister or the prime minister. This shifting of the pro the burden of proof once the statistic statistical showing is made [01:25:30] is a typical privilege given to classes protected by human rights laws. And I want to know if that's correct. Perhaps the member in the chair can give her opinion, but I don't actually have much regard for her opinion. Having observed and listened to the way in which she's attempted to answer questions put by members of this Parliament, both government members and opposition members, I find the matter raised by the member for Hauraki since we are discussing human rights tonight a very serious one. [01:26:00] He tells me that if the particular young lady who, uh, had this occur to her when she applied to become a teacher's training college student. Uh, if she is willing, he will present the evidence. It may well be that she won't want to do it, and I can't blame her if she doesn't. But I'm not gonna share the view expressed by way of interjection by some on the government side that the member for cannot be believed. He genuinely put forward a fact as related to him by a young woman [01:26:30] that at the selection panel for training college entry, she was asked this question as to whether she would be willing to teach the subject of the normality of homosexual Helen Orientation chairman. It's hard to know where to begin in refuting the nonsense, which has come from some members opposite in the debate on part two of the bill tonight. But if we start with one the later points or what passed for [01:27:00] a point made by the member for Waara Moana let it be said straight away that the bill is not advocating any special rights to homosexuals. The bill is about equal rights. It is about giving homosexual people equal status in the eyes of the law as they practise their sexual orientation. There is nothing special about that. It is a bill about equality. I come to another point which the member for wakana made. And I must [01:27:30] say that I'm one of many members who is tired of the continuous liturgy about AIDS and its connection with this bill, because a totally false connection is being drawn. Mr. Chairman, the only logical connection which you can draw between AIDS and this bill is that this bill will be a very valuable component of the fight against AIDS because it will bring the subject out of the closet. And we will be able to combat the spread of that disease in an atmosphere where the stigma [01:28:00] of criminalization of homosexual practise exists, sir. And when we take away that illegality which surrounds homosexuality, the moment we have a far better chance of combating the spread of AIDS than we do at the present time, Sir, I support part two of the bill. I am opposed to discrimination against New Zealanders because of their sexual orientation. I support the extension of the Human Rights Commission Act to cover [01:28:30] sexual orientation, and I must say that I can see no rational grounds whatsoever for people wanting to discriminate in matters such as employment and housing against persons who have a homosexual orientation. And I think so that when we discuss the bill, we should deal with the points that it actually raises and not the fantasies of a number of members who speculate on the wildest and most improbable [01:29:00] of consequences which will never flow from this bill at all. The member for Paara said that this provision of the bill struck at New Zealanders basic beliefs. Well, I don't agree with that, sir. There are certainly a number of New Zealanders who have a basic distaste for dislike, abhorrence of homosexuality and they are free to believe that in a democratic society party. But sir, because you believe something [01:29:30] does not thereby imply that you have a right to carry out that belief in a way which infringes the freedoms of others. It doesn't apply a right to discriminate against whoever you like. If you happen to be a landlord or happen to be an employer and I, sir do not support the continuing right to discriminate against people because you don't happen to like the sort of person that they are the member for Paara also claimed [01:30:00] that some homosexual people who had been poor employees might claim that they had been dismissed from their jobs on the grounds of their sexual orientation. Well, of course, they could make that claim. But you have to go a very long distance from making a claim to having a claim substantiated under the provisions of the Human Rights Commission Act. Any claim made to the Human Rights Commission about having a person having been discriminated against [01:30:30] must go through a very lengthy period of investigation. Conciliation, where there's a dispute about the matter, referral to the Equal Opportunities Tribunal and there really, sir, is not room for frivolous complaints to be lightly dealt with in the way that some members opposite have suggested. I know that provisions similar to this have been in the law in New South Wales and Australia for some four years now. I do not know of evidence to suggest that there have been frivolous complaints [01:31:00] under that law, nor that the law there has had a bad effect on local society. It's worth pointing out, sir, that the Human Rights Commission itself has supported the extension of its powers to deal with discrimination against the sexual orientation of persons. The Human Rights Commission was fully aware that this would bring its work into some greater controversy because it's entering a new area, [01:31:30] but it's worth pointing out that in the public statement they made on the bill in May last year, they said. Nonetheless, the commission considers that discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation is wrong. It was the normal procedure that, whilst [01:32:00] the member and the chair may have some rights to take the chair more often or may take the call more often than others, in fact, surely the turn is for those who would be opposing the bill. At this stage, it's not a matter of one side or the other, but in terms of the physical setup of the house. But it must surely be the turn of those members who are opposed to this bill. And if it's a matter of how many calls have been taken by the member for Inver, I'm very happy to take another two or [01:32:30] three calls.

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TITLE: Parliament: Committee of the Whole House - Homosexual Law Reform Bill (9 April 1986) - part 1
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VOICES: Bill Sutton; Fran Wilde; Geoff Braybrooke; John Banks; Merv Wellington; Norman Jones; Richard Northey; Robert Muldoon; Whetu Tirikatene Sullivan
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bill Sutton; Fran Wilde; Geoff Braybrooke; Geoffrey Palmer; Graeme Lee; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Human Rights Act (1993); John Banks; Merv Wellington; Michael Cullen; Norman Jones; Parliament buildings; Philip Woollaston; Richard Northey; Robert Muldoon; Tony Friedlander; Wellington; Whetu Tirikatene Sullivan; Winston Peters; equality; homosexual; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; human rights; law; politics
DATE: 9 April 1986
YEAR: 1986
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from parts of the Committee of the Whole House during the Homosexual Law Reform Bill, 9 April 1986 (part 1 of 2). This recording contains debate on Part 2 of the Bill which provides anti-discrimination provisions.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, the honourable, the 20 this stage was chairman. See the assistance of the chair? Bit of debate. And in so doing, Mr Chairman, refer you point of order, Mr Mallard to Speaker's rule to clarify whether it is a speech or a point of order so we can get to [00:00:30] the point of order. Point of order, Mr Wellington. Uh, under the speaker's ruling, 1384, which refers to private members, bills and states a private member's bill clauses Have you got it, Mr Jim? A private member's bill clauses of which may and that's the operative word involve an extra charge [00:01:00] on the people in the way of rights reliable into the public account requires the recommendation of the crown and is therefore out of order. Now, Mr Chairman, I raise that at this stage. For this reason, we have concluded the committee stages on part one of this bill homosexual law reform bill, and it is clear from the voting, and I'm not referring to them per se. But it is clear, as a consequence of the [00:01:30] voting, that there is now a strong prospect of the measure put simply being passed, which in my view does raise the question proposed or indeed answered under 1384. Now, Mr Chairman, I could elaborate on the manner in which this measure, if passed, could, in the words [00:02:00] of Speaker's ruling, 1384 speak a statement in 1929. Volume 221, Page 828 involved and I quote him an extra charge on the people. Uh, I don't want to refer to the submissions we've had, in particular from the Department of Health, but I think it is becoming apparent that indeed there may be a charge should this measure [00:02:30] further proceed now. The other part of the speaker's ruling Speaker Statham's ruling of consequence in considering this issue is whether is whether, if there is to be an extra charge, the crown, which of course, means the Cabinet recommends that this bill further proceed. But there are two parts. If there may be a charge, it is out of order. [00:03:00] That's what Speaker state and ruled. It is therefore out of order unless the cabinet representing the crown recommends that it proceed now if one reads on further two speakers ruling 1391. There is reinforcement of that old ruling by a yet older ruling by Speaker O'Rourke. And I appreciate [00:03:30] that he was talking about a specific, taxing bill. But he nevertheless concludes in the second and final sentence, it is not competent for a private member to propose additional taxation. Now, Mr Chairman, I haven't raised this earlier because one had to be fair to the private member and see what likely course this bill was to take. [00:04:00] It is my belief that this measure, should it further proceed and indeed be passed May. That's the key word I did not say Shell or Will. Nor did. Speaker Statham, he said, may involve an extra charge on the people. Now. I think the committee, Mr Chairman, can resolve this issue in a number of ways. [00:04:30] But I would like to suggest two. I would like you to consider the relevance of Speaker Statham's ruling. In the context of this private members bill, there are only four speaker's rulings in respect of private members bills. If there is doubt, I believe it's to be the responsibility of the crown in this case, the Cabinet to indicate, perhaps through [00:05:00] the leader of the House and I have checked back on the speeches given. At the time the bill was introduced, the leader of the neither the leader of the House, deputy prime minister nor the prime minister spoke. And in so doing or not doing indicated the crown's, I mean the Cabinet's position on this matter. Now two things can happen. There can be a ruling from the chairman in accordance with Speaker's [00:05:30] ruling 1384 private members, Bill. And if that is a difficulty for the chair, and I appreciate that it is difficult, very sensitive, very delicate, that it might be of assistance to the committee if the prime minister or the leader of the House came down and indicated whether indeed the crown or the Cabinet [00:06:00] is prepared and I've nearly finished. Eddie is prepared or not to back this bill with public money. I think we've got the point. Well, I think I think the member having spoken now for about five minutes, his his his uh, His point is clear enough, but I think there are other members who may may wish to comment about uh, Mr Chairman did refer to a speaker's ruling, but in no way [00:06:30] indicated to the committee or really appeared to seek to indicate to the committee in what way he considered that this bill may in fact involve an extra charge on the people. Uh, it seemed to me that that that there is no point of order in that the speaker's ruling to which you referred bears not at all on the bill before the committee. More important than that, it bears even less on the matter which is before this committee. If in fact, there were somewhere in [00:07:00] the bill something which could be construed as involving the possibility of involving a charge on the people that would necessarily have to be raised in the House and would be a matter for the House and the speaker, not for the committee and certainly not for the committee when it is seized. Of only one part of the bill, that is part two of the Bill clauses eight and nine, dealing with with amendments to the Human Rights Commission Act, the member who raised this point. And I think it is a spurious point that the member who raised the point should properly have [00:07:30] done so at the time of the introduction of the bill. Having failed to do that, I think he could properly seek the advice of Mr Speaker outside this chamber. I fail to see how he can in any way seek to raise a point of order of this nature in the committee of the House. I thank the Well, I think I think this matter is is, uh, very quickly dealt with by stating to the committee that it can't be dealt with at this stage. Um, I uphold the, um the interpretation of the situation, which we are [00:08:00] in That has been, uh, that has been set out for us by the member for Nelson. Uh, what we have is a is a wish on the part of the member for papakura. Member for papakura to, um, have the question of the bill's acceptability as a whole taken as a whole, uh, decided upon by the chair. Now, it's not the chairman's function and committee to decide on the acceptability of the of the of the bill as a whole. The only function that I have is for is [00:08:30] with relation to amendments, uh, the proper course, therefore for the member for is to raise the point if he wishes to. At the point where the bill is next considered as a whole, that is just, uh, in the course of the bills being read for a third time back in the house. Do you have a further point of order? Uh, Mr Lee, Thank you. I take note of your comments, Mr Chairman, but, um, 16 2 of the speaker's rulings states, while [00:09:00] the House has its own standing orders so far as allowing by unanimous consent a private members bill, that is an appropriation bill to pass through certain stages, it would be unlawful to pass that bill. Now, the issue then therefore, is a question of the appropriation. And, Mr Chairman, whilst I accept that the time more correctly for this matter to be referred to would be now, at the beginning of the third reading, the question of appropriation [00:09:30] is clear. So the point then in retrospect, is at the time of introduction where this should have been established. If the speaker accepted it as, uh, not an appropriation bill and he ruled that way. And Mr Chairman, perhaps you would care to indicate to the house If he did so, then there is grave concern by many of us as to the relevance or the correctness of that ruling. And we would also want to seek from you [00:10:00] in the context of that ruling, whether or not that is now correct from the knowledge that there is an appropriation that is relevant to part two and certainly in measure to part one part two being the reference to the of course the extended activities of the Human Rights Commission in line with their powers to have to deal with a an expanded and extended role in the acceptance of sexual orientation. The part one, of course, [00:10:30] would be representing the cost that would be incurred by the health Department in the additional cost that would arise from administering a a act that would arise from the I don't want to cut the member up unnecessarily. But I, I just have Yes, I'll hear the member in a moment. I just want to point out in reiteration for the for the sake of the member for that, um, I appreciate what he is saying. Um, but this is not [00:11:00] the forum for a discussion on it. Um, I'm I'm not attempting to rule one way or the other. I'm saying that it is not part of my, um, position to say Rule and Central Point needs to be made. And that is, even if one accepted the case that it involves an appropriation. All the standing orders provide in 2991 is that no bill may be passed, may be passed, and that is repeated in Speaker's rule in 16 [00:11:30] 2 unless there is a message. Passing a bill, of course, does not occur in the committee stages of the House. Even if Part two is assented to by the committee, the bill is not passed at that point. There is a further stage which has to be gone through, and clearly it would be appropriate to obtain a ruling about whether the bill involves an appropriation. If it doesn't, a message will be required before the third reading. Speaking further to the point of order, Mr Freeland, despite [00:12:00] what the senior government whip has said, what we're really looking at is the practicality of whether the house should devote a considerable amount of time to further considering the detail of this legislation. If the government has no intention of providing the message to this bill to proceed into legislation and therefore all that is required quite simply, rather than awaiting or carrying out further work in the committee stages. [00:12:30] If the government has no intention of doing that, we should know. But the easiest way to have this matter resolved would be for a minister, the leader of the House or the prime minister to simply say that the government will adopt this bill as policy if that's their intention. I mean, if that's their intention, because that will then ensure that the appropriate monies are voted by the crown as such with the speaker. But otherwise we would be asking the House to be wasting their time dealing with [00:13:00] many hours of debate, possibly on the detail of this legislation. When if the government is not going to provide the, uh to support the bill that we would be waking up, I would suggest to the member for New Plymouth for you that that is an extremely dangerous suggestion. If he is suggesting to the House unless the government indicates in advance that an appropriation will be available for a private member's bill sometime before [00:13:30] the last stage. Otherwise, the house or committee should spend no time on the measure. The government, of course, could obviate introduction debates on all private members bills which involve an appropriation merely by indicating in advance that there will be no appropriation available. And I suggest to the opposition who may want to introduce, shall we say, private members Bills was not totally bills of conscience sometime in the next few weeks that they would not wish to adopt that as some form of ruling to come from the chair, though the government, the government might not necessarily be unhappy [00:14:00] with such a ruling. Given the time it will save over the next few months, I can, uh, I can appreciate. I think perhaps before we go any further on this, we should give the member for New Plymouth benefit of of a ruling. And just to say that I can appreciate the point that he is making, um and to say, as I've already done, we've got a difficulty, which is that we're the creature of the house and we, uh, we in the committee here can't Yeah, can't do any more than just to, uh, proceed on the basis the house [00:14:30] has already decided. Uh, is this a fair point of order? Well, no, I'm seeking your guidance. So in in that, um, no, I do want your assistance. Because in ruling, you did say it would be within the competence of the committee translated into the house, uh, to deal with the matter I originally raised under [00:15:00] Speaker's rulings. 1384 and 1391. Now, Mr Chairman, could you indicate, I assume you mean at the commencement of the third reading I? I assume that when the committee reports back in essence, uh, to the speaker on the proceedings which took place in it IE the committee. Now, Sir, I would be grateful for your assurance on that point that we can indeed [00:15:30] traverse this matter. Uh, perhaps with the assistance of the Prime Minister. Um, and secondly, might I just respond to a point I think, raised by the chief government whip? There's no doubt that 1384 does caution the house in respect of private members bills where there and I quote, may end. Quote be an extra charge on the people. [00:16:00] Now I wonder if we missed that going through. I wonder if both the committee and the House in the initial stages, in fact overlooked the fiscal implications of this measure. And if so, it might be the wish of the committee. At this point, it may be it may be the wish of the committee to seek the guidance of the speaker, if, perhaps by some special [00:16:30] dispensation, the committee can temporarily dissolve. We can get the speaker back and and deal with the matter here and now. I think so. It would make the deliberations in the committee, which are the fine print, which will involve long term the dollars and cents. I think it would make it easier for individual members to make up their minds because responsible ones, if in doubt, might find the revenue implications [00:17:00] of this measure the persuading factor in voting one way or the other, particularly if the minister of finance or or the associate minister of finance or the undersecretary for the minister of finance. But to be fair to the member for Palmerston North, he has spoken at some length as one who's trying to to balance the books or bridge the gap between in the internal deficit. I can't understand a support for measure which might indeed, I believe will increase government expenditure. Now, I think it's important, [00:17:30] sir, that the committee steady up, talk to the speaker about it. Because I repeat whether the government spends or not whether the government has to spend extra may influence individual members in their voting on specific clauses in the committee states. I think the members who have taken part the, um the first point I suppose that one [00:18:00] should make is that the matter of whether or not this bill involves an appropriation has already been, uh, decided on It was declared in the, um uh in the house, Uh, on the eighth of March. Now, I'm just saying that various members have made the point that we that we are in fact in some kind of limbo. But it's not clear whether we're debating a bill for which an appropriation, uh, has has has been granted. And I want to refer members in case there's any doubt about that, um, to, uh Hansard, Page 351 of the eight of the eighth [00:18:30] of March, where it's made clear that the bill does not involve that's 1985 where it's made clear that the bill does not involve an appropriation. That was a matter that was clarified at the point where the bill was introduced on that day. Secondly, the question of the timing of any, uh, point of order raised in respect of the speaker's ruling, uh, rulings on page 138. Um, I would take it at the appropriate time for any member who wishes to do so to raise [00:19:00] a point on that would be when the, um uh when the speaker was back in the chair, obviously. But prior to the bill actually being read a third time, Um, I think that, um now the the member member has asked when that will happen. And of course, it will depend entirely upon when we, uh, when we conclude this stage. The committee stage, um, the the further question that was raised and whether we should seek leave from the from the, uh, uh committee for the speaker to to, uh, come [00:19:30] back as, of course, a matter for the committee. And, um and of course, if there is any objection to that course, well, then we just we just proceed. Um the question then is that, um part two stand part. And when this matter was last being discussed, Mr O'Flynn had, uh I believe four minutes and I appreciate you have another point of order. Well, does he have another point of order? Point of order? Point of order, Mr Welling. Just a matter of clarification. You said it is in within [00:20:00] the competence of the committee to determine when the speaker, uh, deals with this particular matter. Matter of life. Pardon? It's a matter of life. Yes. Well, sir, I, I thank you. That's the the little bit of, um, assistance. I appreciate I seek the leave of the committee that Mr Speaker do now return and deal with the matter raised under standing order 1, 384 and 1391 in respect of an appropriation or [00:20:30] levy on the people, the question is that course of action be agreed. There's any objection. Well, no, no. If there's any any objection to the point of order. Mr. Chairman, what we're being asked to do is to recall the speaker to rule on something he's already ruled on. He is already raw. The bill does not involve an appropriation. And I would suggest very carefully to the committee that they would be wise not to recall the speaker to question the ruling he's already given. Well, I take it there is Objection. [00:21:00] The question now is that part two? Stand up, Mr Lee. The new point of water, sir. Uh, new point of is I, I believe of the committee of the House to consider the path to clause by clause. So I do this conscious that we have accepted the motion and that the house has been governed [00:21:30] by the part one and part one has been voted on as a whole. Now, sir, I'm asking the house to set aside, uh, and return to the to the normal rules. Because, Sir, in addressing part one, it was clear that the motion that the House accepted did inhibit and restrict the opportunity to speak on what finally was a series of nine amendments and seven clauses. [00:22:00] And sir, in a similar capacity, Part two also has a further eight amendments. There is only two clauses but eight amendments now, Sir, in addressing in this particular request, I put to the chair. There is two clauses only. And sir, I believe it should be considered as quite different from the request that was sought by leave for part one because of the rest of the [00:22:30] is stricter number of clauses. But the fact that there is so many amendments to those two clauses only served, I believe requires, in fact, demands that the house grant on this part two the right to debate those two clauses in separation, Mr Lee. Thank you, Reserve Chairman. The the the important point, sir, is that we have had limited opportunity [00:23:00] to address what has become a very complex committee stage. The amendments in total are now 19, and, uh, we probably have hardly seen in the house a bill that has had so many members for those limited number of substantive clauses. And so we're just asking and I'm seeking from leave the house and the concurrence of the house of the whole committee that these two remaining clauses therefore there's only two clauses in effect to address. But by [00:23:30] agreeing to that, we will have the opportunity to fully examine the total framework and implications of the eight amendments that apply Clear my mind Whether that was moved as a motion or or that leave was still point of order. Point of order, Mr Lee, By clarification, I rose to seek leave of the house. I believe that's the only procedure that I have of Al. [00:24:00] Um well, we'll put that matter to the committee. The question being whether or not the, uh the bill should be considered clause by clause. Uh, there is an action. That course of action, uh, will not be followed. The question now is that part two? Stand up, Mr Norman Jones. Mr. Chairman, I want to speak to this part two of the [00:24:30] of the bill, which, to my way of thinking, is the most obnoxious part of it. It seeks to, uh, decriminalise on the grounds of sexual orientation and bring this in under the Human Rights Act and make it a crime for people like myself belonging to 98% of normal New Zealanders who we are now having our rights violated to play homage [00:25:00] to 2% of New Zealanders who declare themselves to be homosexually inclined. And we talk about this sexual orientation. Mr. Speaker, if sexual orientation is going to be declared legal by the passing of this part two of this bill, then this parliament is telling all New Zealanders that because sexual orientation, namely homosexuality is legally right, is now to become legally right. Then it must also be morally [00:25:30] right. That's what they're saying. Mr Chairman, most people in this country, most people in any country believe that when something is declared legally right by act of Parliament, then it's automatically follows. It should be morally right. Most people think that way. They agree that that's pass, people pass legal laws and that's what this that's what this Parliament is about to do. Mr. Speaker, Well, I've got news for politicians in this Parliament if they're declaring sodomy at 16 [00:26:00] years age to be legally right and they've already done that and they're now going to declare that if you discriminate against people practising that legally, you are going to be morally wrong. I'm going to tell you now that if you think that 98% of normal New Zealanders are going to accept that, that the that the discrimination against homosexuals is morally wrong, because this law is only protecting and giving extra rights to 2% of the country, then you've got another thing coming and you're going to regret ever having [00:26:30] passed this bill and passing part two of this bill is virtually saying to 98% of New Zealanders that homosexual behaviour is not merely legally acceptable but morally acceptable. That's what this part two of the bill is saying. There's nothing else that can say that's as simple as as falling off a log. Not only is homosexuality legally and morally acceptable, but it has to be encouraged, but it has to be encouraged. That's what that's what the bill is saying because I'm not allowed to get up in this house and speak against it. If I was [00:27:00] a preacher on the pulpit, I'm not allowed to talk against it. If I was an employer under this bill, I am not allowed to discriminate. Otherwise, I'm contravening. I've read the bill more times than the member or Glen Fields read it. And if she wants to vote for this bill, she's a goner. She's a goner from this house. I'll personally come up and campaign and electorate and see that she is quite frankly, that's right, and it has And not only that, it has to be encouraged, but indeed it's going to have to be financed by the government and the government is financing. [00:27:30] There's no question about that. That's the That's the point that the member for Pa Pa Pa. Was trying to make. If 98% Mr Chairman of normal New Zealanders aren't allowed to discriminate against legally recognised homosexuals, then it must be become lawful. It must become lawful. If we're not allowed to discriminate against it on other grounds of human rights, then it must become lawful for practising homosexuals to teach that sort of [00:28:00] thing. In the schools, it has to be lawful. If they're legally entitled and morally entitled to do it. And as they are on the path to this bill, it must become lawful for them to teach it in the schools And anyone opposing teaching homosexuality in the schools will be breaking and contravening the Human Rights Act and able to be taken to court. I will be take if I went throughout the if this, if this bill is passed and I go throughout the country opposing it like I did prior [00:28:30] to it coming in, I will be contravening the law of this country and I'll go to jail. Well, I'll tell you what, I probably will. I probably will, Yes, I can be taken to court, and I probably will be any preacher that gets up on a public platform or on a pulpit. Any preacher that gets up and preaches what the Bible says against sodomy will be contravening the act. No question about it. Furthermore, furthermore Mr Chairman, under this bill's definition of sexual orientation, [00:29:00] and I you know I don't have to read it out, but I will. Sexual orientation is related to any person with a male or female, means the heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual preference of that person and includes any characteristic that's been imputed to the particular it goes on and on in the window. What I'm saying since homosexual orientation, Mr Speaker Mr. Chairman Mr. Chairman, I I've called Mr Chairman before the member got up. Point of order, Mr Chairman, [00:29:30] Point of order. Point of order. Uh, I take it that I have entitled to five or four or five minute bursts and I took the call because nobody else was there. I called Mr Chairman another time we got three more to go. Thanks very much, Mr Chairman. The speech we just heard from the member of For Cargo deserves a full reply because it really summed up all the prejudices and misinformation and myths that have been promoted around the country by those opposing [00:30:00] this bill. I think it's very important, firstly, to say that the bill will not prohibit in any way the bill will not prohibit in any way anybody talking or preaching anything they like about homosexuality or about heterosexuality or about any other form of sexuality. That is the first fact, which the member for Inver Cargo had wrong. When he said that any preacher who gets up in his pulpit and condemns sodomy [00:30:30] will be liable to be imprisoned, he is actually quite incorrect. And if he believes that he is right, then I would suggest in the 15 minutes he has left to him after dinner that he tells the house which section of the Human Rights Commission Act, which is to be amended by this bill, actually will provide that penalty on a preacher who gets up in the member for Invercargill. I'll be listening with great interest after dinner to hear what he has to say on [00:31:00] that, he said that it will forbid people to talk about homosexuality in the way that he has talked about it. And in fact, he has threatened to go into the electorate of the member, Paul Glenfield, and campaign against her. Well, I would say he's just threatened to come into my electorate, too. I would like to tell the member through you, Mr Chairman, that he is most welcome to come and campaign in my electorate any time he wishes. I'm sure, in fact, that it would be no end of help for me in the next election campaign. [00:31:30] In fact, I would consider it an honour to have the member running against me. Perhaps he'd like to give up Invercargill and come and run in Wellington Central instead of an Invercargill. If he thinks he's so sure. I notice he's not so anxious to do that. Mr. Chairman, The member is quite wrong when he says that this bill will stop people talking and preaching against homosexuality. It was very carefully drafted so as not to do that. It was in fact, drafted to eliminate discrimination on the [00:32:00] grounds of sexual orientation in areas such as the provision of housing and employment and goods and services. I'm just telling the member what it means. Perhaps he should listen. And then he will be able to hear more. Mr. Chairman, I'll be interested to hear in his next few calls whether or not in fact, he is able to, um, give us any evidence to support his assertions. I don't believe that he can, but I'll be giving you plenty of evidence. Uh, in the rest of my course that I have left to the contrary, time [00:32:30] has arrived. We leave the chair, and, uh, when this matter was last in discussion, Fran was speaking. She still has, if she wishes it two minutes. Uh, point of order. The honourable winning. Um, Mr Chairman, Prior to the T recess, I raised a point of order under Speaker's rulings. 1384 private members bills. It's a ruling by Speaker Statham, Volume 221 of Hansard, page 828, [00:33:00] which said a private members bill clauses of which may involve an extra charge on the people in the way of rates payable, which is tax. Of course, into the public account requires the recommendation of the crown and is therefore out of order. Now, Mr Chairman, you ruled on that, and I accept it. But during the the tea break, I have further consulted Speaker's rulings and, contrary to the point of view, espoused, [00:33:30] I think about 5 15 17 by the member for Nelson. I have not sought opinion, uh, beyond Speaker's rulings, and I have not sought the views of the staff of the Legislative Department. But I want to refer Mr Chairman to Speaker's ruling 17 1. Interestingly again by Speaker Statham, he must have been an extraordinarily busy speaker. 1935. Volume 242 page [00:34:00] 473 and yes, precisely. The member for Tamaki says it is an extraordinarily busy time. As we try and correct a few things, sort them out and get them back onto an even keel. Well, the member for Hastings will be the first to go to redress the ballots. Now, Speaker Statham said, 17 1, a private member. And I quote a private member's bill, [00:34:30] which would enlarge the scope of the state's liability by providing for the expenditure of public money is an appropriation bill now. So it's really as simple as that. This bill implies the appropriation of public moneys at the time of its introduction to the house is distinct from the committee which we are now addressing. It was ruled not to be an appropriation bill. [00:35:00] We have since, however, despite the protestations of the member sponsoring the bill the junior government whip now backed by the leader of the House, we are now confronted inescapably with the fact having heard over the past year evidence here and there mainly in here that the state, the government or the crown will have to appropriate money. No, no, I haven't finished [00:35:30] yet. I have. No, you can't interrupt me if the Honourable member would Just for a moment, this is you gonna be help? Yes. OK, we'll give it a go if if the honourable member will recall. This is a regurgitation of the subject matter that we've already, uh, explored in the point of order that he raised, uh, earlier. Um, I. I take it from his point of order that what he wishes to do is [00:36:00] to question whether or not the ruling that this is not the appropriation bill that is properly given. It's quite different. And, uh, if that's the case, then uh, I can only repeat my ruling that that, of course, the member may raise that question. But this is not the place to do it. That the chair during the House and committee can rule on the admissibility of amendments, but not on the question of the status of the bill as a whole. That is, that is a mandate for discussion by the House as a whole. And if the member wants to, then [00:36:30] of course, he can raise that question. And it's a perfectly appropriate one for him to raise. But in the house and not in the committee. Yes. Well, uh, my name is Mr Lee. Mr. Lee, is it not under standing orders the province of the chairman in the committee of the House to seek a speaker, uh, ruling in respect to a matter like this. And I repeat that the point in which this matter comes back before [00:37:00] the house at this time having already been aired in the earliest earlier part of this debate, is because we believe there is a substantial influence now by this matter uh, bearing on this debate tonight we are addressing part two of the bill, which refers to the Human Rights Act question. It is clearly the question that is to do with the appropriation we believe members of the House would want to take into [00:37:30] account. And therefore it is proper that it is now decided before this debate continues. Well, being the point of order, Mr. Williston, the member who just presumed his his seat is, is really seeking not only to challenge the ruling you have just given, but but is is really saying that it is legitimate in some way in the committee to seek to overturn a ruling given by the speaker on the introduction of this bill. Can I put it to you, Mr Chairman? There was no way that the [00:38:00] committee can even entertain discussion of that matter. I can't. I want the didn't hear the early part of this before the break. But it does seem to me that it can be contemplated that in the committee stages of the bill, uh, we could make an amendment which causes the original ruling to be no longer valid. But quite apart from making an amendment. [00:38:30] It does seem to me to be within the bounds of possibility that in the detailed discussion of the bill in committee, something is disclosed, which also makes the original ruling no longer valid. And if that is so and that is what I take it, the member for PAPAKURA is saying, would it be appropriate for me to move to report progress in order to get a further, um, ruling from Mr Speaker on this matter? [00:39:00] Uh, you see, if we were to go right through and take no further ruling and find that in fact, what the member for Papakura says is correct, uh, we would have been out of order in passing this part. And indeed finally, the bill, without the necessary further procedure because of the requirement of an appropriation of some kind. And it seems to me that the proper course might well be to simply move to report progress, to get Mr [00:39:30] Speaker to make a ruling and then come back into committee speaking to the water. Fran, we chairman. I understand what the member for Tamaki has said, but in fact the member for Papa has not given us even one example of where he thinks Speaker's ruling 17 1. The criteria there have been fulfilled, as he was unable to give us an example of another speaker's ruling that he tried, uh, this little trick on before dinner and I would suggest that in fact, we are wasting [00:40:00] the time of the house. The speaker has ruled on this. The, uh, bill was very carefully looked at at the time when it was introduced. The speaker has ruled there is no appropriation involved. And unless the member for Papakura or another member of the House is able to give us to tell us where they think there is an appropriation involved, then I suggest that there is just no case for this point of, uh, speaking further to the point [00:40:30] of order, Mr Wellington, to be brief in response to the member for Wellington Central and to be precise at about 5 p. m. tonight, I said I did not think it in order for me to traverse the manner in which, under a point of order, I believed an appropriation to be implied. And you will recall that Mr Chairman, I desisted from expanding I. I can now refer if the member for Wellington Central so wishes and and indeed has requested [00:41:00] to the Department of Health's head office, uh, statement of the 30th of April 1985 the Statutes Revision committee of this Parliament, uh, which is a document number 954 and which quite clearly refers in passing, at least in going back to, uh, speaker's ruling 1, 381 which states a private members bill [00:41:30] clauses of which may involve. And that's the key word may involve. Now, let me pick up the Department of Health's memorandum to this Parliament, it says, And I quote, a DS has followed an epidemic course in both the United States, regrettably, and Europe. Equally regrettably, since it was first reported in 1981 stop, there is every reason to think it will do the same in New Zealand. Now, Mr Mr Chairman, [00:42:00] it is obvious that the dealing with or a dealing with a matter of the type encompassed in the homosexual law reform bill must inevitably imply, or, in the words of Speaker, Statham in 1929 may involve an extra charge on the people. Now, I am prepared to table that document But as I said a minute ago, I didn't think it proper to refer to such a document in the course [00:42:30] of raising a point of order. Now, the member for Wellington Central says, I haven't used enough speaker's rulings. Well, let me go to 103 109 1, which, well, what did you say? Well, here is the Department of Health Memorandum number 954 dated the 30th of April 1985 which I am happy to, Table says. It says it all. No, no, she must sit down. She's had a fair go. She's had a fair go Well, and I'm told. I'm told, she mutters into that microphone [00:43:00] a bit. And any minister who once sat there knows about that microphone. Let me go to 1391. It is not competent, and I quote Speaker O'Rourke. Volume 32 of Hansard, Page 489 and I'm sorry. 486 and 497. It is not competent for a private member to propose. In effect, he says, additional taxation. Now that's what it's all about. Now how many more speakers rulings does she want [00:43:30] now? Mr Chairman. No, no, no. She's getting up again, which is a pity. Now, Mr Chairman, Mr Chairman, you are in, I believe, and we've Was that the member for Hastings again? To Wellington. Thank you. I believe, sir, that you are in an invidious position. And I believe, sir, that when this bill first came in, parliament did not totally [00:44:00] appreciate all the ramifications of the measure, particularly the appropriation side. And as I said before the tea adjournment, there may be members in this house who are waiting, in balance or on balance, to make their minds up on the fiscal implications of it say, for the budget deficit and who have did not quite naturally hear those implications or, um, comments relevant [00:44:30] upon the introduction of the bill. Now, I'd say that because the Prime Minister didn't talk about it on the introduction of the deputy Prime minister. Didn't talk about it. The Minister of finance didn't talk about it. But a year later, we've heard a lot more. We've heard a lot more, and I think to be fair to the committee and in particular to you, the chairman, it would be sensible for the committee to say this is a bit bigger than we first thought and therefore, let us dissolve the [00:45:00] committee. Go back into Parliament proper under the speaker who cannot challenge or not override what you have determined in that sense. But who can assist Parliament in fully addressing the issue in a manner that it has not been able to thus far? I, I think that that well, we've had a succession of points of order which are on the [00:45:30] well, uh, I I should before, before members seek to take further cause on this I. I think that it should be made clear to them that we're really rehearsing arguments that it's not appropriate for me to rule on one. Can I return to the member the member for Taki's points? Uh, which seem to me to be important, have any power to rule on that question? A ruling on this matter from Mr Speaker? [00:46:00] That's the motion. And I take it that, uh, well, understanding order 289. Any any member may move that way, we will accept that ruling and, uh, seek, uh, the speaker's guidance in this matter. I'll put the motion, uh, those in favour say I to the contrary. No, the eyes have it. So yeah. Uh, Mr Speaker, [00:46:30] I've been asked to, um, draw your attention or to seek your ruling on a question that that has been raised in respect of the, um the question of whether or not the homosexual law reform bill involves an appropriation. Since I wasn't in a position to give a ruling on this myself. Um, and a motion has been moved. It's been agreed to by the committee that your ruling be sought on this question. Uh, yes, [00:47:00] Uh, they are, Mr Wellington. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr. Speaker, this issue first arose earlier tonight prior to the tea adjournment when in the committee I requested. And there's been no challenging of, um, the member for Western Huts chairmanship of the committee. None whatsoever, as the journals of the House will testify. But, sir, as I said at about five o'clock, the difficulty [00:47:30] I believe the committee has got itself into is that following the debate discussion of the amendments and voting on there in and part one, it has become clear to the committee and therefore to the house as a whole that there may be may be revenue implications in this measure, which the committee and Parliament had not originally [00:48:00] contemplated. And Mr Speaker, that I believe was foreshadowed in Speaker Statham's ruling in 1929 Volume 2 to 1 on page 8 to 8 when he said a private member's bill. Clauses of which, and here is the operative word May, mate. I am not saying, sir, that it will or even shall, but as foreshadowed in one [00:48:30] of your predecessors rulings, a private member's bill clauses of which may involve an extra charge on the people in the way of rates or taxes payable into the public account. The consolidated Fund, as we would put it today, requires the recommendation of the crown and therefore or is therefore out of order. Now, Mr Speaker, when the bill was first introduced, none of us frankly, [00:49:00] I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I I I'm requiring straight, isn't it? I'm requiring advice, not sounds. I'm obliged to you. I'm obliged to you might I, um, given the, um, given the interval, ask how long a member has to speak on this particular issue. No, no, II. I want [00:49:30] to hear the member. Uh, sure, he has raised on a point of order and quite correctly, and I want to hear him to state this case. The only requirement that there is is that the matter should be put to Yes, thank you, Mr Speaker. I was referring to Speaker Statham's ruling 1929. Volume 221, page 828 and he said for the member [00:50:00] would I'm sorry to interrupt the member, but the member is quite obviously referring as well as properly to the volume of the parliamentary reports. But he is also obviously referring to the volume of collected speaker's rulings, and I would be obliged if he draw my attention to the number of that speaker's ruling at The Times. I beg your pardon, Mr Speaker, it's Page 138 um, Speaker's Ruling four on the same page, [00:50:30] subtitled Private Members, Bills and Mr Speaker. It is bracketed sea, a private members bill, clauses of which may involve and this is this is the purpose of my raising it and I repeat, I have not stated that it will or shall. But as speaker Statham foreshadowed, uh, a long time ago now may involve an extra charge on the people in the way of rates, [00:51:00] which he obviously meant to be. Taxes payable into the public account, which we would say today is the consolidated fund requires the recommendation of the crown and is therefore out of order. If I may come back to that, sir, But in or for the moment, refer you to 1391, which says Second sentence. It is not competent for a private member to propose [00:51:30] additional taxation, which I believe, sir, and that's Speaker O'Rourke in 18 79 Volume 32 pages. 486 and 497. Well, I wouldn't, um I wouldn't, um, go into that too much. And there was a further ruling. Mr Speaker, Page 17 Speaker's ruling. 17. Yeah, one again. [00:52:00] Speaker Stat in 1935. Volume 242 page 473 A private member and I quote Bill, which would enlarge the scope of the state's liability by providing for the expenditure of public money, is an appropriation bill in simple terms, Mr Speaker, Given those three speakers rulings, I believe we have reached a point in the committee where we need to go back [00:52:30] and establish clearly, and perhaps the prime minister or the deputy prime minister or minister of finance can assist the committee or indeed, the house as a whole at this stage, to what extent shown the homosexual law reform bill be passed. To what extent there may be an impost on the people as foreshadowed in Speaker Statham's ruling. That's the question. Will this cost this hard pressed people more in tax or not? Order? [00:53:00] Or, I would remind the member of his obligation to express this matter tersely. Mr Speaker, I'm happy to do that and by way of evidence in the belief that there may be a burden on the people with your. By your leave, sir, may I refer the house to the Department of Health Paper Head office of the Department of Health Paper, signed by Doctor R, a. Barker, [00:53:30] director general of health. May I refer the House to his paper to the Statutes Revision Committee of Parliament on the 30th of April 19, assistance to the member here in advancing his case. The question that, as I understand it, is that up to date, the House and the committee has been working on the assumption that the speaker's ruling, which was given [00:54:00] on the introduction of this bill that it did not involve an appreciation, was a valid, uh, assessment. Now, my understanding of the situation is that that that remains the rule of this house until there has been an alteration in the bill in some way, which would alter the validity of that ruling. [00:54:30] Now, I would ask the member if he has evidence that would lead me to believe that that is so that he would produce that evidence. Firstly. Well, sir, Well, sir, well, I II I can in the sense that Speaker Statham foreshadowed it. And I choose my word. I choose my words with caution, for he said, mate. And I believe, sir, that he meant that injunction to act not as a break on [00:55:00] the committee or parliament, but to act as a caution, to act as a caution And, sir, no one. I'm sorry, but he seems to misunderstand what an actual fact is. The argument is the matter at issue before the house quite see the matter at issue before the house. And I presume before the committee is whether the bill has been altered or is being proposed to [00:55:30] be altered in such a way as to make the ruling given by the speaker in ballot because otherwise what the member or the committee is attempting to do is to overrule or speak a ruling that has been given by the chair. Now that, of course, is not acceptable, and so that I would ask the member to quite [00:56:00] quickly come to the point and explain to me in what way the House or the committee has embarked on a procedure which was not envisaged when the ruling was given that this bill did not involve an appropriation I'd ask him to quite specific draw the attention of the House to the proceedings that the committee are involved in which were not foreseen in that ruling. [00:56:30] Yes, I give way to the member and traverse something that was put to the chairman before you were recalled. There is another circumstance, as it was another circumstance. It was felt, uh, rather than an amendment to the bill, which is one possibility. As you have said, the other circumstance is evidence arising during the debate, which was not in front of you at the time you made the ruling, but [00:57:00] which nevertheless indicates that if the bill is passed in its present form, there will need to be an appropriation. And that is the evidence that the member has put before the committee. It was not in order for the committee to consider it because it was a speaker's ruling. And therefore, you have been asked to return to listen to this evidence and see whether it in fact, would [00:57:30] have altered your ruling had it been in front of you at the time that the bill was introduced. Right? Well, I would ask the member to arrive at that point clearly. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Speaker. May may I therefore refer to the Department of Health's paper number 954, which is obviously an effective ministerial paper must go through the minister to be received by the appropriate committee of Parliament in this case, uh, the Statutes Revision [00:58:00] Committee. I said whilst no specific dollar and cents terms are added by way of addendum to this paper, it is clear to frankly, any member and if I may say so, anyone who has been a spending minister that the passage of this bill would although I repeat not emphatically state, it would mean a further appropriation by [00:58:30] the government of or by the people. And my evidence, sir, is in it is it is in fact an addendum to the substantive paper, which reads AIDS. It says many things, but it says in my view, this, uh, critical things AIDS has followed an epidemic. Now remember, this is the director general of health who is not given to using emotive words. He is not [00:59:00] in that mould. But he said, Oh, don't get restless. He, he States, has followed an epidemic course, not a course an epidemic order. I would remind the member again of the obligation to express his point of order tersely and well. So my submission is this that in the absence of a specific revenue spending pattern for the current financial [00:59:30] year and as was the customer in New Zealand government the two subsequent years. In the absence of that material, the Minister of Health, the minister of finance, who keeps a close eye on these sorts of things, and his colleagues should come back to Parliament or a committee of the House and fill out all the detail because this bill is passed as the Minister of Defence knows, as the Minister [01:00:00] of Education knows, as I believe the Prime Minister knows as the minister, uh, you you're history. I mean, you really are history, as the deputy prime Minister knows, does involve a very considerable extra expenditure, if only for advertising the changes in the law, if only if only for that. But in in addition to that, sir, to combat to combat the insidious effects of the law [01:00:30] should it be passed or the bill should it be passed Now, may I come to 1381 Speaker's rulings 1381. So that is quite clear that if there may be an extra charge on the people in respect of taxes. Mr. Speaker Mr. Speaker, if there shall be an extra charge that requires the recommendation of the crown, we have not had a crown point of view on this [01:01:00] matter. Uh, order, uh, as I take it, and I I'm trying to be assistant here. I take it from the, uh because the does seem to be unable to comply with standing orders, which is that a point of order must be expressed test and relevance and the opinion of what members, various members of the houses were obviously not within it. Now, if I may, uh, assist the member by saying [01:01:30] I understand his point of order is that because evidence has been presented to the committee and to the house that their er that AIDS is a reached epidemic proportions overseas and will reach epidemic proportions in New Zealand. Therefore, the passage of this bill will involve an appropriation, because I take it that that is his argument. Is it [01:02:00] Now? Right now, I have correctly. And if I may just finish it off. Sir, it is not the wish of the committee or indeed of the house to overrule your decision. Because, Sir, at the time the bill was introduced, Mr Speaker did not have that information or or I'm sorry, the member is not speaking relevantly to the point of order. The point of order. Uh, what? The wishes [01:02:30] of the committee may be irrelevant to the ruling that you're asking me to give Well, Mr Speaker, if I may just conclude and I appreciate your your tolerance and No, no, no, no. There are members who are muttering that, sir, I do. I am obliged to Not for my own sake, but for the sake of the issue. I am obliged to you. And I appreciate what you have said, sir, There is no determination. There was [01:03:00] none in the committee to overturn decision embarking on matters which are not well, you raised it Not relevant to the point of order, Mr Speaker. Speaking to the point of order, Um, the the member from Paak has in fact, presented as his so-called evidence the, um, [01:03:30] the Department of Health submission to the select committee on this bill. Submission number 954. He has quoted very selectively from us. And in fact, the house should know those of the house who have not read the, um, submission and you yourself, Mr Speaker, that the health Department, in its submission, actually did outline the AIDS um, education programme and um, prevention programme. They are establishing, and in fact, they have already established. [01:04:00] And there is nowhere in that submission which, in any way suggests that the costs of that campaign will increase should this bill be passed. In fact, quite to the contrary, the department said, and I'll quote from it that it is unlikely that the passing of this bill will negatively influence the effectiveness of the proposed AIDS campaign. It considers that there could be some positive benefits from the campaign, which would depend for their success to some extent on good communication and the effective and open dissemination [01:04:30] of information. In other words, it was the public environment which this bill would create, which was important not that it would require the expenditure of extra government money. The government already does have an AIDS programme in place. I would have raised this some time ago, but it seems to me that as a distinction from the your prior ruling that changed circumstances could occasion an increase appropriation over a period of time. And if one looks [01:05:00] at the chronological evidence in respect of this matter, I think a very strong case can be made out to begin with, sir, that, uh, since the bill was introduced, we have seen an appropriation of something like $3 million. In respect of this, uh, programme that's accepted, I would ask the member to come to the point I am at the moment, he has been totally irrelevant. Well, sir, I if I could come back and give you the legal distinction that I sought to draw to your attention from the word go. It is this that not only may [01:05:30] there be an emerging from the committee evidence suggesting an appropriation has to take place, either inside the house or outside, but changing circumstances can also provide that evidence which may lead you to change your your ruling. Now, sir, what I have said is simply that there has been an appropriation. So there is the first standard there is likely to be because of the increased incidence of AIDS, a further increased appropriation that is supported by overseas evidence [01:06:00] where the liberalisation of the law saw an epidemic or order, Order, order. The, uh, ma member is trying to, uh I have had both sides of that argument trying to introduce some sort of argument about the effects of this, uh, on the instance of AIDS as an argument of whether the bill is an appropriation. Now that is not really appropriate. I want him to produce [01:06:30] evidence of the question that's in front of me. And that is whether the situation is any different from what it was when the ruling was given that it did not involve an appropriation. Now that is the only issue that's in front of the House. The difference in the evidence that was available at that time as compared with what is available now, not what the evidence may be that is [01:07:00] irrelevant to the situation. It's the altered evidence explanation of what would distinguish the ruling now, as opposed to then. But I'm asking you, sir, to turn your mind if you can in a legal way to, uh, what you might regard as evidence in all the circumstances rather than the provision of evidence right now, which you will know. Well, sorry, but it's because the speaker's [01:07:30] ruling was given in the light of the circumstances that were known at the time to the speaker. And we're widely known I am, and I have been requested to make a ruling on the fact that there was certain evidence that was unavailable to the speaker at that time, which has since become available to the House, which would justify a reversal of that speaker's ruling. Now that is the question that's in front of the House. No other question not [01:08:00] that that evidence was anything else, but why that evidence is now available and was not available before. I'll give it to you in a nutshell, and the claim sir, has been provided. I will give you the evidence in a nutshell. And the evidence is provided by the member for Wellington Central, who is on public record as saying, When this bill is passed, the gays from overseas are going to come to New Zealand for a holiday to celebrate. [01:08:30] That's my evidence. That's my evidence, order, order and what more and what more decisive evidence Could you possibly need order? I withdraw and apologise. He could not produce any evidence that I have ever said that the member for Southern said that they [01:09:00] it. It's obvious that the matters which can be seriously raised in this point of order have already been raised. And the question in front of me, the question in front of me is, unless matters members have matters which are relevant to this very narrow points of why the evidence, not what the evidence is, but why the evidence was [01:09:30] not available to the speaker at the time. Original decision was made and to the people who advised the speaker. Yes, Yes. Speaking my speaker, I will be relevant and stick to the facts. The facts are these, sir, that when you ruled on this bill when it was first introduced, I believe and I believe the majority of members thought that your ruling was correct. It certainly was for part one, sir, because [01:10:00] there is no appropriation on decriminalisation. But the evidence which has come before this house, in fact, before the whole of New Zealand, is that there have been such an overwhelming, uh, anti this bill A the an overwhelming cry against it. This parliament, which you would not have known so when the bill was introduced, was subject to a petition the largest in this country's history of three quarters of a million. Mr. Speaker? Uh, yes. I would remind the member of the obligation [01:10:30] to speak to the point of order and turf. This bill, if it is passed, will affect the Human Rights Commission which is funded by the taxpayer, sir. It is paid for by the crown. There will be a whole stream of submissions to the Human Rights Commission. Even if there is only one and there will be thousands. That in itself will cause a huge increase in the expenditure and vote [01:11:00] for the Human Rights Commission and a petition of over three quarters of a million. So, in my view, proves that there will be an awful lot of extra work for the Human Rights Commission. They stopped Callum speaker. What I would suggest to you is that the member for Napier's contribution has in fact clarified the issues fairly well for the house in that, as [01:11:30] he said, there is no appropriation involved in part one of the bill, which is the only part which has been passed by the committee. It has been suggested to you on the basis of evidence which cannot be adduced, that there may be some involvement in an appropriation in Part two, and indeed the quest, the part one has been passed in the committee in the committee that is all and that is agreed. I think, by the House that that is all that has happened. [01:12:00] Part two has yet to be considered by the House, let alone voted on with any amendments. If there is anything which happens in the debate on the part two of the bill and the committee. I would deal with it. I would remind the member that he, along with the last two speakers, is not addressing the question that's in front of me. The changed circumstances. The speaker before him did not include the changed [01:12:30] circumstances. He and I do not intend to allow any further contribution unless I hear some argument which is directed towards the circumstances that I have to deal with. And up to date I've been not at all, Mr Speaker, I apologise. What I'm trying to say is that there are no changed circumstances since you made your ruling. Well, the only changed circumstances which could occur have yet to occur in the committee. And the point [01:13:00] which should then be raised should be raised after the committee stage, uh, be before the committee. You may then have new evidence and new matters to consider, depending on the nature of amendments passed in the committee. But at this point, there is no new evidence which would suggest you should change your ruling. Let's raise a further point again. I would remind the member because when I'm not the unjust member, but my experience up to date is that members are not addressing themselves to the point [01:13:30] of issue. Speaker. I remember it is the new evidence which was not available to the speaker at the time, and to reverse the nature of that evidence is out irrelevant. And the member will not do that. Thank you for your request. And I suggest to you the one change which has not been brought before you is that the evidence which the member for papakura [01:14:00] has made his claim upon is based upon a paper which was presented to the select committee subsequent to you making that ruling. And in doing so that that that fact has already been drawn to my attention. And unless the matter has some new evidence, I would ask him to resume his seat. I just make one more point. Mr. Speaker, I suggest that that evidence having come forward, it should be studied by you and the clerk to see if it has applications. [01:14:30] Mr. Speaker, I want just to make one short point which might be of assistance in your dealing with the allegations that there have been some fresh evidence. All that has been suggested, sir, was neatly summarised by you in connection with the suggestion that there might be some increase in the spread of AIDS and some increase [01:15:00] in the health vote to deal with it. All I want to say, sir, is that is a highly debatable matter. There is some suggestion that it might equal suggestions that it might not, and it is a highly debatable matter. It isn't fresh evidence on which the chair should rule or deal with its previous ruling. It should adhere to that evidence I believe is specific and is different between that. [01:15:30] That was available at the third of March 85 and to what we have tonight and that is contained in a written answer to the minister of Health. And it's only 10 days old, sir. And as a question put to the minister of health, requesting the cost relating to, in fact, the AIDS epidemic as relates to issues in this last passage of time that I quoted in the figure, sir, and it's in my folder here. My desk is 9. 9 [01:16:00] million, sir. That is a specific figure that I suggest to you is as a determinant. It answers the question as to the nature of the change of the status of this bill and sir, it must be considered by the chair as being directly related to the matter of the bill. Because 73% of homosexuality is related. Question was available to the speaker or advisors before this decision was [01:16:30] made. Come on, I, um sorry, the it that I did not say that all this evidence was available to speakers said to the speaker or his advisors [01:17:00] and one of those who are available to advising the speakers are the very people who have been quoted in this matter. Now their position, as I understand it, is that no one in this House is trying to overrule the original ruling given by the chair. There's been no suggestion that that should be done, but that what it has been suggested is that because of new evidence which was not available [01:17:30] to the speaker or his advisors at the time, it has become apparent that an appropriation is involved, which could not have been foreseen at that time. And my understanding of the situation is that, uh, it is alleged by those who are raising it, that the inevitable consequence of the passing. This legislation will cause an increased incidence of, uh, the disease of AIDS and [01:18:00] that because of that, uh, a further appropriation of public moneys will be involved. The those who are involved in the counter argument are saying to me that the evidence that has been presented from them from the same source is that not that it will unequivocally produce that effect but that, er it may produce that effect and that, but that it also may allow a more effective public [01:18:30] health campaign to be carried out. Now, uh, that and we then come to the question that's been raised as to whether the actual question of a public health campaign in involved because of this legislation is an appropriation. Now an appropriation has already been made for that, with presumably all the contingencies involved in that. Therefore, the incidence of [01:19:00] that appropriation does not fall more heavily because of the passage of this legislation. We come then to the question that was raised by the member for nature about the whether the in expected increased incidence of the work of the Human Rights Commission, in actual fact, involves an appropriation now there would have to be evidence and proved to me that [01:19:30] the actual passage of this legislation involved not just the more active engagement of those employed by the Human Rights Commission in their work, which might be one result of this, but that in actual fact, further staff would have to be employed to deal with the matter. Now there has been no evidence brought to me. [01:20:00] There has been no evidence brought to me that in actual fact, that would be the result, and so that under the circumstances that because the evidence has been brought forward, the House is equivocal. And for the House for the chair to make a decision against the advice that he has been given up to date and that advice [01:20:30] is quite extensive, would be to enter into the argument because it would be to make a decision which favoured one side. Contrary to the advice that had been given to the chair and for that reason, I do not intend to alter the original decision that was given by the chair that this bill did not involve an appropriation, [01:21:00] a further point of order to the extent that, uh, the current legal situation is this that a person who wishes to allege discrimination on the grounds of homosexual preference may not, I believe, bring a case to the human rights commissioner. I wonder it would be of great help to me if the member who, after all is legally qualified, would draw my attention to the particular standing order, which [01:21:30] he is raising this point of order on. Because his words up to date do not indicate to me that there is any standing order or speaker's ruling to which I should draw my attention. Mr. Speaker, it's, uh, the the most recent order standing order, which I'm raising or Speaker's ruling, which I'm raising is the one you've just given. No, sir, No, sir. I can I can substantiate on the ground of the ruling. You you just gave a ruling and you said that the Human Rights Commission part of this bill will not be not not [01:22:00] be occasion extra appropriation by its passage, I will prove categorical that it will be or order that there is. What I have given is not a ruling about the what the activities will be in the Human Rights Commission, not at all. What? I have given us a ruling that this bill does not involve an appropriation. And that and I have given a ruling that my to form a particular judgement one way or another. And the evidence that's been presented to me would be [01:22:30] to fly in the face of the advice that has been given to me by dispassionate people and to take part in one side or other. The argument here. Now, if the member is raising as his point of order the most recent ruling that has been given from this chair for the purpose of questioning it, I would remind him that that is a most disorderly procedure. Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I'm relying, Mr Speaker. I'm relying entirely on the words [01:23:00] of your ruling to justify this point of order. Uh, so the member So what is the? I would again ask the member to draw my attention to the standing order, which the house appears to him to be in breach of. No, sir, I'm relying on this point of order on the basis of a speaker's ruling. That was your ruling. Just given. And, uh, do you intend to bring that ruling into question? No, sir. No. Uh, what is your purpose? Well, this [01:23:30] is the point, sir. Your, uh, had the clear, uh, explanation to the house that if it could be proven evidentially that the passage of this bill would require greater appropriation. I'm sorry. The member is without a question of doubt. And every member of this house must be aware, is bringing the my ruling into question. Well, have you been voiced by your own? [01:24:00] It is your problem. Order the member there. There is a machinery available to question my ruling, but that is not to be done by the procedure. The member wishes to raise that. I have given my ruling. And that is final. A point of order. The right honourable for Robert, for the benefit of the house and later the committee. Can I take it [01:24:30] that as a result of your ruling, if some member is now able to produce concrete evidence of the matters that have been alleged, which is acceptable to your advisor, then you are prepared to, at a later stage of the bill again rule on this matter. That is a reference to a Mr Speaker Statum ruling involving an appropriation, in other words, that we carry on with the the [01:25:00] committee. But if those members who claim to have solid evidence that has not yet been put in front of you and your advisors that you would at a later stage of the bill, if necessary, reconsider the matter Yes, This is a matter that can always be raised until the final of the third reading of the matter. It can be made that subsequent to a ruling of circumstances has now changed. But because [01:25:30] of the decision of the committee, uh, that, uh, circumstances changed. But I would remind the member that the, uh, type of evidence that would be needed to overall the speaker's ruling is not one that is based on opinion that it would have to have facts to substantiate it. Uh, yes, but not opinion. Point of order. A fresh and entirely different point of order. No, it's not [01:26:00] entirely different, sir. No, no, no, no. Well, they giggle, but sir, it it. I believe in this matter. We are very much paving a way for subsequent legislation of this. Also, it would be of great help to me if you would draw my attention to the standing order or the speaker's ruling, which you want to discuss. And it may not [01:26:30] be the ruling, which is just immediately given by the speaker. Well, sir I, I shall do so as briefly as I am able and in so doing, refer once more to speakers ruling 13, 84 now. So I believe the difficulty we have is foretold by Speaker Statham, who said it's not a matter, sir, of producing hard evidence at [01:27:00] a particular point, which was the difficulty for the house when the bill was introduced. And so there were only 13 speakers out of 95 when the bill was introduced and one can work the percentage out. And and I believe there was not sufficient evidence for the Order. Order, order. I am being forced to the opinion that the member is intending that I should reverse my ruling. Uh, well, when I would ask him [01:27:30] to tell me at this stage because he's had sufficient time to switch it Firstly, what remedy he wishes to achieve. Mr. Speaker, I Yes, thank you. I believe, sir, in respect of your ruling on the ninth of April 1986. That that, sir, of necessity now has to be? Yes. Uh, that I'm asking him what remedy he seeks. Yeah, Well, Mr Speaker, simply [01:28:00] this. No, no, no, no, no. There they go. You see? There they go. They would spend the taxpayers' money, like pouring water out of the tap. And that's the point of issue tonight. Well, I interjected, sir, Uh, my, my, my. The remedy I seek, sir, is an assurance that the matters raised in Speaker's rulings 13841391 and sir in 17 1 are not [01:28:30] yet concluded. And that the matters serve for the moment. And I'm obliged to you for your indulgence over the past hour that the matters encompassed in those speakers. Rulings are left in advance and are not finally determined. No, no. The matters in, uh 138421391. our final decision turns this because if you look at the context and they are all to do with taxation [01:29:00] bills, private members, bills, yeah, our private bills affecting tax taxation of one form or another and so that they are not relevant, I would advise the member to look at the context of those rulings. Uh, I'm I. I have already taken the trouble to make myself familiar with the situation. [01:29:30] I have already taken the trouble to do so, uh, but, uh, that is I declare the house in committee point Point of order. Mr. Peters, just, uh, uh, seeking your clarification on the standard of evidence. And so it's not in any way challenging any ruling you've made. I would like to know now, given the, uh, expressed use of the word implied that is implied an implied appropriation. [01:30:00] What is the standard of evidence that you would regard as being sufficient in respect of the ruling? I'm sorry. It will depend on the circumstances. But the speaker does not make decisions such as this on without guidance from the appropriate authorities, so that I am not in a position to say now. What if the evidence that's brought forward me by appropriate authorities may be that the speaker [01:30:30] on this matter is always guided? Yes, that I declare the House in committee on the homosexual law reform bill. Oh, the homosexual law reform bill, Fran Wilde has two minutes before I was replying [01:31:00] to the member for in McGill, who appeared to be under the misapprehension that the passage of Part two of the bill would somehow stop him or any other person in New Zealand from expressing their views about homosexuality and for his benefit. I'd like to run through the provisions in the schedule of Part two to explain to him that none of them whatsoever have anything to do with speaking or preaching [01:31:30] from pulpits or having meetings or public applications for professions, trades or callings, vocational training bodies, access to public places, provision of goods and services, land housing and accommodation, educational establishments, discrimination by subterfuge and charitable instruments. Mr. Chairman, I cannot find in any of those places, and I've looked through the Human Rights Commission Act, any reference at all to what people say. [01:32:00] And I have a feeling that the member for Cargill has either got deliberately or inadvertently confused with the Race Relations Act, which is in fact a piece of legislation which deals with what people may or may not say. Unlike the Human Rights Commission Act, which only deals with actions and the provision, as I've said of things such as goods and services. The problem is, of course, that the argument put by the member for Invercargill has been one which has widely been around [01:32:30] the community, not only by some members of Parliament, but by other groups of people who purport to be telling the truth. And in fact, in this case, they are wrong. Because that is not what the bill says. And I would suggest that they should read the bill because they might learn from it what we are actually trying to do with Mr Chairman. I raise a point of order, a point of order, Mr Lee. Mr. Chairman, I [01:33:00] seek your clarification on two points, and I think they are appropriate that they be raised at this point of time. Firstly, sir, uh, in the light of the fact that at the beginning of this debate tonight, I unsuccessfully moved that the debate be carried through on a clause by clause basis as opposed to the whole or the part. And sir, in the context of that, [01:33:30] though that has been inhibiting to the discussion in the debate of the House. Would you confirm whether that now means that under standing order 286. The speaking time is limited to 45 minute periods to each member of the house. And can I ask your ruling on that at that stage? You? No, sir. That's correct. Secondly, sir, I draw to your attention to the fact that we have a interesting procedure difficultly tonight. So in the second part, [01:34:00] again dealing with the Human Rights Commission, there is two clauses and there is nine amendments now. So those nine amendments cover important issues such as accommodation, armed services, traffic officers, penal institutions, education, youth organisations and, in fact, religious bodies. Now, sir, the point is this that in those amendments they are applicable only to cause eight and nine. If those [01:34:30] two courses are passed now, procedurally, Sir, I put to you there is a difficulty facing the chair that should cause eight and nine. And the motion before the house Now, is that the part two as the member stand part? If that is, in fact lost, the amendments then will in fact be null and void. Now I just put to you there's a technical difference of facing the chair and I want to ask you if you'd care to comment on that matter. [01:35:00] Uh, speaking to the doctor is saying correctly, it is if the vote on the main issue that is part two as amended or if not amended, depending what it is by the time we get there is not passed, then the amendments. If they are passed before they get there, well, that's because part two won't be passed. And that is absolutely correct. In other words, sir, there will be no amendments to the Human Rights Commission Act if part two is not passed in the main vote. [01:35:30] And I had understood that was the intention then for in terms of his approach to part two, Mr James I I in the first five minutes, I was saying and the member for Wellington Central disagrees. What I'm saying is that the labour, if this bill is passed what this bill does part two of this bill does is to amend the Human Rights Act of 1977. [01:36:00] I know that the member for Wellington Central knows that under under existing under existing Human Rights Act, it is unlawful to discriminate for employment reasons and a variety of other reasons against people because of race colour religion or sex that's already there. But there are exceptions. For example, even under the existing Human Rights Act, I cannot get a job as a warden in a girls boarding school, and there'll be a very good reason for that, [01:36:30] too. Yeah, well, at least I'd be chasing girls. I wouldn't be chasing boys, that's for sure. That's right. Yeah, and so and no. And also I couldn't expect to get a job as a leader for a girl guide that under this act, if it's not amended this act, you are going to have to accept. You are going to have to accept leaders in girl guides. But leaders in orphanages, wardens and orphanages who are known homosexuals, [01:37:00] and unless it's amended at the moment, the sexual orientation is quite clear. It's there. It says. Sexual orientation in relation to any person, whether male or female, means heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual affection or preference of that person, and includes any characteristic, and their provision to this act is to enable those people not to be discriminated against. Now, as I'm saying, if 98% of normal New Zealanders [01:37:30] who aren't bisexual, 97% because according to the Highland Poll, 2% of New Zealanders are are are homosexual and 1% is bisexual. So let's take 97% of people in New Zealand are having their rights violated because they have to accept these people in into their homes. If you've got a a house mate or a point of order, Mr Wellington, point of order under standing order 410 hm Which [01:38:00] relates to press representatives infringing standing orders. I'm referring to Mr Harman, who has My gosh. He left smartly, was frankly imitating the member for Invercargill whilst the latter was making his speech. I found that offensive. It may well be that Mr Harman of TV NZ has a point of view on the matter may well be it is not his place under standing [01:38:30] order 410, to use his position in the press gallery to indicate which point of view he shares one way or the other. And may I may I read the standing order. Any organisation whose representative infringes the standing orders of the house may be excluded from representation in the press gallery for such time as the house directs. Now, now, Mr Chairman, they they? I appreciate you can't see it. You'd have [01:39:00] to look behind you. Come down. You have to look. But my gosh, at th feet 37 you can see a lot. My gosh. And you can in 38. 38. My gosh, you can. And Mr Harman of PV NZ has indicated to the rest of the public gallery and this house what he believes in. And I assume what his employers believe in. Now, sir, might I ask you No, no, no, no. His employer is in the first instance. Of course, the Minister [01:39:30] of Broadcasting, who is a member of the government. And of course, we have the government Junior whip introducing this bill so one could go on. Mr. Chairman, Recourse! Has this house standing order 41? Oh, in respect of the media representatives, um, who inhabit the place? Mr. Peters, Chairman, uh, much as I don't want to go against [01:40:00] my colleague from I have to confess and admit that, uh, I made a face myself at the, uh, honourable member from, uh, the member of the press gallery. And I think that there may be some uncertainty in this that he was making a face back. To be fair to him, Mr Harman may not have had a good week for the last couple of weeks. Uh, and I'd hate to see him [01:40:30] be malign, uh, maybe unfairly. And if it's a guilty party, it may well be myself. And I would ask you to take that consideration to the right Jeffrey Palmer. The contribution that has been made by the member for Taronga to this seems to be a graceful, a graceful sort of way of suggesting that the member for the of the press gallery against whom this point of order was directed was, in fact, that that [01:41:00] member of the press gallery may not have been guilty of the offence, Uh, with which the member for Papakura was charging him. Now, er no utterance was heard from the press gallery on the matter. And as I understand the member for papakura, what he was suggesting was that certain gesticulations were made or certain or certain gestures which, uh which somehow indicated to the member for papakura that er that that particular person may not have agreed with what was being said, but I think [01:41:30] it's well known in this house that members of the press gallery sit there. They frequently smile. And when a member of the house, as the member for Tarana has done, uh, perhaps makes a gesture, uh, in a friendly way, uh, to a member of the press gallery that he might get some response from that. Now, if that is, if if that is the well, the member for Tauranga tells us that it was that he was being friendly and one can assume that it was reciprocated. But in that instance, it seems [01:42:00] to me, Mr Speaker, that really there isn't a point of order and that really the matter should be taken no further and that we should proceed. I think that yes, I think that that's the situation that we have. And I'm at a disadvantage because I can't actually without sitting around and and not paying attention. Uh, keep an eye on what's going on. But I thank the member for Tauranga for actually, I think, providing an explanation for which we would otherwise have had to search elsewhere. [01:42:30] Mr. James was speaking. He has three minutes, three minutes. So, Chairman, Under the bill's definition of sexual orientation since homosexual orientation is to become lawful is to become lawful and can't be discriminated against. Then so must the man boy homosexuality relationship become lawful? [01:43:00] Uh, what consent that is. And that was already voted for that sodomy at 16 years of age for consenting adults and 12 years of age by consent that's already been made legal. Uh, so So also, if we are going to have this homosexual sexual orientation, uh, no longer to be discriminated against and I'm not going to be able to employ, uh, if I find I've got somebody coming into my law practise and I've given him or her a job and find that they're [01:43:30] either a lesbian or a homosexual, I cannot sack them without discriminating under the human rights. Or if I've got somebody in my household as a domestic servant or a nanny to my Children and find that they have got this newly newly legalised sexual orientation, which can mean anything, it can mean a man boy relationship. It can mean a a woman girl relationship, and it can mean all those sorts of things as long as they've got it and they're gonna have it. Alright, [01:44:00] there's no question about it. We'll become the mecca for all those already got it. All the old all the old homosexual perverts will be coming here flying in the Concord, and a lot of them can afford it, too, into the new into the new country where we've got 12 year old boys and 60 year olds who are now doing it legally and lawfully. And if I discriminate against them in occupation or profession or anything like that, then I, as one of the 98 normal New Zealanders heterosexual [01:44:30] New Zealanders are having my rights violated because if you legalise homosexual or sexual orientation, which in essence is homosexuality. If it's legalised by this parliament, then surely people will say, Well, if it's legally right, it's got to be morally right. Most of us, the attorney general general, that doyen of constitutional purity there who's who's voting for this [01:45:00] bill voted for the 60 year old I want to ask him, Does not every New Zealander who accepts the legal interpretation of this parliament in its administration, the laws as being legally to be obeyed now say OK, if homosexuality is not to be discriminated against, it must be morally right not to discriminate against it and morally wrong to discriminate against it. And I'm one of the 98 New Zealand of New Zealand who will be discriminated and get my rights violated [01:45:30] to pander to 22% of perfects, Quite frankly, in the community, Mr. Chairman, I rise to speak to part two of this bill and to oppose it. I oppose it very strongly. In part one, the bill told people what they could do. In Part two. The bill tries to tell people how they should think and react. I find it totally repugnant, Mr Chairman, to find that we are trying to [01:46:00] sanitise an act of gross indecency. It has been an act of gross indecency for many people for many, many years now. We are told by part two of the bill that you must not discriminate against these people. I will tell this house that if people who have lodgers or people staying in their property, they are no longer allowed to say, Look, I don't want you now as a tenant because I think your ways are disgusting. That is now they and themselves are going to find [01:46:30] that they are acting unlawful, I tell you now, decent New Zealanders will not accept it. They will not accept it in spite of the mutterings for the member for Sydenham. I also want to tell you that Mr Speaker, that it would be outrageous if if I would find it outrageous if this is allowed in the Oh, don't worry about it. A twin right Christchurch somewhere Anderton is his name. So I been for Christchurch [01:47:00] Central. Is it Sydney? Sydney is interjecting on his colleague, the member for Napier within 3 ft. I can hear him from here. Would the member for Sydney mind leaving the chamber? We know his views on homosexuality. Leave them outside and allow the member for Napier to finish what he's saying. I hadn't. I was aware the member for Sydney was interjecting. I hadn't been aware that the member for Napier found it. If he doesn't, [01:47:30] uh II, I assure the member for the chair will take action appropriate to protect him if he requires it. I hope you had my time, Mr Chairman. Mr. Chairman, it would be a tragedy for this country if this bill is introduced and I believe the introduction the in the the proposal of the bill, said that it would be unlawful to discriminate in our schools that, to my point, is one of the most dangerous things that this house could do. I'll tell you now that if [01:48:00] we allow school teachers to practise homosexuality with their pupils, there will be an outrage in this country and an outro that will drown even the noise of my colleagues at the back, because it will be lawful for people of young boys of 16 if they are willing in schools, especially boarding schools, to practise homosexual acts with members of the staff, I find that utterly repugnant. And to that end, Mr Chairman, I have introduced a [01:48:30] an OP which stands in my name, and I would like to formally introduce because I think that heaven's above. If we're crazy enough to pass this stupid bill, let us at least keep it out of our schools. And don't let the sodomy and perverted acts go on in. The educational institutes of this country also introduce the sop in my name regarding the armed forces, police, traffic officers and officers of a penal institution. I have spoken to all four groups of those disciplined bodies who are [01:49:00] responsible for law and order and defence of this country. I can tell you now that the vast majority that I have spoken to view it with utter repugnance that they should have to accept practising homosexuals, boasting if if they wish that they do that sort of thing within their mist, it would cause more trouble than this country or this house could ever imagine. Believe you, me In penal institutions, for instance, a homosexual warden or a homosexual penal officer could use [01:49:30] the influence which they can bring to bear on inmates in order to procure them for acts of sodomy. It could happen. And I have spoken to prison officers in my own electorate who are utterly appalled at the thought that they could have working with them prison officers. It has happened before, but it was then illegal. It will become under this bill, quite legal for a prison officer and an inmate. If you wish to practise sodomy in one of Her Majesty's prisons, [01:50:00] for heaven's sake, let us at least if you must pass this repugnant bill, keep it out of our prisons, our schools out of our police, our traffic officers and our armed forces. Mr. Chairman, this bill has raised probably more heat than light. I wish to God it had never, ever been introduced. It has divided New Zealand like no other bill in this century has done. It has divided cities. It has divided political [01:50:30] parties. It has divided families. It has even divided churches. It is a bad bill. And I urge you that if we've still got a long way to go, But at least let's mend a few fences. I consider part two of the bill to be the most repugnant part of the bill because it tells people how they should think. And I find that absolutely unforgivable. Uh, Mr Banks, [01:51:00] Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for for that, uh, contribution, Mr Speaker. It's interesting, isn't it, that the minister of education has just arrived in the house? The member for Wanganui, the member who supported the legalisation of the act of sodomy for 16 year old boys? Or, if you wish, adult schoolteachers and 16 year old boys in schools up and [01:51:30] down this country. He voted in the eyes lobby for the age of consent to be 16. In other words, he condones homosexuality between 16 year old school boys and 16 year old boys and their school teachers with consent. Of course, Mr Chairman, with consent. And I remind those listening and those in the gallery that this Parliament, in its wisdom so called wisdom, has legalised [01:52:00] the act of sodomy for 16 year old boys and over and over. And opponents of that on this side of the house voted against 20 voted against, 18 voted against 16, And next year we will vote against and the following year, 40 and any other time that this matter is a raised again in this house. It costs $2600 a minute to run this house. And four weeks this parliament has [01:52:30] been dealing with what age can young boys sodomise each other? And in the case of the minister of education, what age can school teachers legally sodomise young pupils? That's what we've decided. And part two and part two of this bill now legitimises the act of sodomy, the perverted business of sodomy. Legitimises we've legalised it and now [01:53:00] we're going to legitimise it, and I want to know from the minister of Education, the member for Wanganui. If he's going to support this part of the bill, that will mean that schools up and down the country can and must hire on me other American practising homosexuals in that school. They'll have to hire practising homosexual school teachers who turn up for a job to look after young boys [01:53:30] in boarding dormitories. That's what they'll have to do. They will not be able to discriminate them because of their so-called sexual orientation. And we know how promiscuous many or most of these homosexuals can be. And we know how important it is at the tender age of 16 that young boys are protected and this parliament should have been protecting those young New Zealanders from this kind of filth. But no, [01:54:00] no. The vast majority of Labour Party members voted for the age of consent to be 16 for the act of sodomy, and now we have just about on the statute books, and all it needs is the third reading. But tonight we're discussing the legitimization of homosexuality in our society and, as the member for nature rightly points out, the very, very worst part of this bill. Socially [01:54:30] evil damaging and a threat to democracy by the family unit that stands to be crippled by this thin edge of the wedge. That Parliament is working its way through at the expense of people out there in serious economic difficulty is what Parliament should be dealing with not at why can you sodomise the fellow next door or the school teacher with the pupil as it would be for the minister of education, [01:55:00] who supported the legalisation of the act of homosexual for 16 year old boy? That minister of education has a lot to answer for, and his conscience is pricking. He's three shades of red, and I invite him to get up and stand up next and tell this house. Does he want to legitimise the act of homosexuality in schools by not allowing school boards of governors not to [01:55:30] hire, practising and in some cases, highly promiscuous homosexual in schools? He's got a lot to answer for. If he wants homosexuality in our society practised openly and in our schools, he should not be the minister of education. At least his colleague, the minister of defence, had the decency to come in this house and exclude the armed forces. But no, not the minister of Education, nor the [01:56:00] Mr Chairman. I would like to draw members' attention back to the the principles that we're faced with with respect to part two and the key aspect and most of the members who have spoken so far haven't gathered. This point is that this part two deals with sexual orientation and not with sexual behaviour. There is nothing whatsoever in the proposed part two of the bill which would prevent educational institutions, [01:56:30] the armed forces or any other body prescribing rules about inappropriate sexual behaviour among adults in the care of others or in those institutions, it is quite clear, and most schools, of course well, in fact, all schools have got very clear rules now about teachers engaging in sexual activities with their pupils about heterosexual teachers doing that, that is quite clearly laid down, and it would [01:57:00] continue whether or not Part two is carried. I have found in my mail and in public opinion surveys that there is in fact, more support for part two of this bill among the public than for part one, because the people who who do have a concern many of them about the behaviour that they are concerned about. And certain types of that behaviour do have a care about people who by reason of for whatever reason, have the sexual [01:57:30] orientation are cared about and are concerned in this community. And they recognise that there will continue to be bans against inappropriate behaviour in the institutions concerned. And for that reason, and I look through the various amendments which have been suggested, I find that there are very few that I can support because they don't deal with this question of being concerned about the orientation rather than [01:58:00] the than the behaviour. And I think that in fact, looking through all of these, uh, and Mr Bray will be surprised. But his amendment to number 11 is the only one I can support because that is dealing with the question of activity and making it quite clear that in fact, what this bill will do will not in fact, uh, prevent school boards having rules against inappropriate and oppressive behaviour in a sexual way. And I'm quite happy for that to be explicitly stated [01:58:30] it's not doesn't need to be, but to clarify the doubt, I'm quite happy for that. But in terms of the rest of them, they, as most of the speakers have done, have failed to make that distinction. And I think as caring people, we should be concerned that this is a group which has been oppressed and discriminated against on the basis of an orientation, and and that that over which that they have not chosen and which has been developed, and that we should have a concern about that. And I in [01:59:00] fact support the fact that we should be able to recognise that there are some homosexual teachers and there are some homosexual generals and there have been many, many very famous and effective ones in the past. And for people who do end up having a homosexual orientation, to be able to look up to and to say, there have been some great people in who've helped to build human civilization who share my orientation. And for that reason I'm very keen that we should in the law, say that that continuing discrimination and oppression of people [01:59:30] because of an orientation over which they have no control should seek, and that is something which I have found. The vast majority of the people who have contacted me share that concern. As I said, even some of them who are reluctant about the age of consent share a concern for homosexuals that they should not continue, continue to be oppressed. The people here are proposing the continued oppression of celibate homosexuals, of which, of course, there are many because they wish them to [02:00:00] continue to be allowed to be oppressed, picked on and discriminated against purely because of their orientation. I'm pleased, strongly pleased to support Part two because it does nothing to harm the legitimate interests of people who are concerned about the behaviour of people in authority over them that continues to be protected. But they do recognise the right of all people, regardless of their orientation, to have a decent chance of getting a good job, appropriate [02:00:30] accommodation and a good start in life and decent respect in this community. And part two of that bill will assist this to happen. The Honourable Sullivan, Mr Chairman, I rise to move an amendment to Clause nine of part two of this homosexual law reform bill. As the bill stands, it makes an offence to discriminate against a particular person [02:01:00] on the grounds that that person is a homosexual or a bisexual. In other words, this bill makes it an offence to discriminate on the grounds of one's sexual orientation. With respect to what has just been said by the previous speaker, I want to quote the German sociologist and homosexual Duer, who bluntly declared that. And I quote, the fateful homosexual friendship is a myth. The [02:01:30] myth may have its utility in a custom society to the phenomenon of homosexuality. The lofty, durable friendship sells easier. But by now we should accept the phenomenon in all its full reality and have the masses accepted also. And this reality is that we are after many partners by force of our orientation. I return to [02:02:00] my amendments, which I'm foreshadowing in these comments Now. My amendment claims that in certain clearly defined circumstances where certain types of homosexual male job applicants apply, that they should not be appointed, particularly where they would be in a position of authority over [02:02:30] boys. If this bill is finally passed, then that would apply specifically to those under 16 years of age. My amendment also suggests that it would not be unreasonable for a person offering accommodation to deny that accommodation in certain circumstances, to a certain type of homosexual. That certain type of homosexual [02:03:00] I refer to is the predatory and promiscuous Sodom and the sadomasochistic homosexual who brings brutality and cruelty to his particular type of homosexual behaviour. I refer. I remind the house of a reference I made earlier that in San Francisco, the coroner's office is reported to have organised a workshop for sado masochistic homosexuals [02:03:30] on how to have their preferred variety of sex without injuring one another. The reason apparently offered was that 10% of the homicides of the murders in San Francisco are the result of sado masochistic homosexual practises. That course, incidentally, was paid for by the San Francisco taxpayers. Now there are many levels of homosexual behaviour resulting in deriving from the orientation. [02:04:00] And I am referring in particular to the right of New Zealanders to discriminate against this type of homosexual. And that is exactly the type I am referring to, as well as the predatory and promiscuous Sodom. New Zealand parents who do not wish to see their young sons at the mercy of such a homosexual male should not be charged as having committed an offence against the law [02:04:30] for seeking to apply such discrimination in protection of their sons. New Zealand parents with a spare room in their home should not be charged as offenders under this law, assuming it goes through if they refuse that spare room to a person whom they understand is a predatory Sodom when the aim of such discrimination is to protect their Children. The point of my amendments [02:05:00] is to give New Zealand parents this right. If this part of the bill gains the support of the majority of members in this house, as did the first eight clauses of part one, then such New Zealand parents will commit an offence by discriminating against a predatory Sodom or a sadomasochistic homosexual. By claiming as this bill does, that no homosexual may be discriminated [02:05:30] against, such decisions by reasonable parents will make them offenders under this act. As it stands as this bill and my amendment seeks to Mr Chairman, my amendment seeks to protect thank you. My amendment seeks to protect them by giving them the right to apply discrimination in such specific circumstances. Otherwise, this bill would make [02:06:00] them offenders against the law if passed unamended. This bill would make protective and caring New Zealand parents offenders against the law. Now that is unacceptable and untenable, and this house must therefore oppose this part. But if it is of a mind to pass it as it did part one, then at least it must support my amendment. [02:06:30] The second reading of part of this part means that any 16 year old of whom it may be said he was a consenting partner. I beg your pardon? I refer to the first part of this bill may legally indulge indulge in homosexual sex. My amendment is aimed to stop such an extraordinary set of circumstances which would effectively take away the right of parents to protect their [02:07:00] sons from a predatory sodomy being in a position of authority over their son. My amendment also gives a householder the right to prevent a predatory Sodom from being accepted as a border in their home in a household with young sons. Mr. Chairman, when homosexual behaviour, even though it is conducted in private, offends other [02:07:30] occupants of the same building, then it becomes a public affair. And in such circumstances, for this house to deny the right of those immediately involved finding such behaviour repugnant to deny them the right to discriminate against those of the orientation which produces that behaviour is to remove justice and to the measure [02:08:00] is out of all balance with the concept of human rights. It grants human rights to a minority. And if I am to take the Hale poll only 2% of the country and thereby removes the right of the parents who comprise part of the majority population from discriminating in their desire in their duty in their responsibility to protect [02:08:30] their sons, their Children. Uh, Mr Chairman, this is really untenable. And I appeal to this house to see the inordinate occurrences that would be discriminated against. I mean, the behaviour of parents if the bill goes through as it is in my own surveys of the of opinion on this as I move around the country, which I do a great deal, particularly on weekends [02:09:00] uh uh, I have learned that Part two of this bill is the most unacceptable, and I bring that information for what it is worth to the house. In view of what the previous speaker has said, this house is entitled to note that I have advocated against unwarranted discrimination against an ethnic minority. Yet here I am arguing for discrimination against active homosexuals. In fact, [02:09:30] my objection and I underscore it again is to predatory, promiscuous Sodom. They are male, Mr Chairman, they are homosexual. And I believe I can cogently make the point to validate my amendments so that they do not appear inconsistent with my earlier earlier stands on issues for the people I represent. In fact, I conclude this part of my foreshadowing of my amendment with [02:10:00] a real case on my books relating to a constituent of mine, uh, a constituent in the city. Some of her household hold are on my role, and some are not. They're on the role of the member for Wellington Central. This woman, who is a lone parent with several sons, takes in borders to help bring in an income to help her raise her family. If one of her sons has been brutally [02:10:30] sodomised and is in such a trauma that his only desire is to kill that person who sodomised him, who was a person who held authority over him, she will not be permitted, Mr Chairman to discriminate in future if in advertising and seeking a border. And she is an impeccable mother and housewife seeking to give her best to her Children. She will be, uh it will be an unlawful act [02:11:00] of hers and an offence if in the future, understanding her experience, she discriminates against an applicant to take up that spare room because he is a homosexual now, it would be a totally reasonable thing for that mother to discriminate. However, if this part of the bill goes through in view of her experience with her son and his trauma and it is a problem that will continue through much of his life, I believe, then she will [02:11:30] be made an offender. If this bill goes through, I bring that current case on my case load, and it doesn't rest alone in many cases. And I bring it to this house as an example. And I would say that that mothers within the precincts of this parliament tonight, for she has given her permission for me to refer to the specific case. Why should she become an offender under this part of the bill? If in future, she refuses [02:12:00] the spare room as accommodation to an applicant who is known to her as a homosexual. I believe that the member for Southern Maori has put her finger on the fatal flaw in this part of this bill, because what this part would do if it became law was [02:12:30] would be to make it a form of offence to take the kind of precaution that someone in the circumstances that she just referred to, would in surely all conscience be entitled to take. And that's the fatal flaw in this and it applies in other areas. I am much more opposed to this part of [02:13:00] the bill than I was to part one, and for that kind of reason, and this goes over into other areas, it is not the question of an act of violation which will remain an offence, whether it'd be homosexual or heterosexual. But it is [02:13:30] the act of the aggressive homosexual who may initially be attempting a homosexual seduction. But in the case stated the parents, the family will have the fear even that it might succeed, [02:14:00] but certainly that in the event of resistance, it may go further and become an offence. But it is an offence if this bill is passed that they should discriminate in order to prevent the possibility and the same problem goes over into other fields. It's been brought to my notice, and I've been asked to raise it in the House. And I do that in the Boy [02:14:30] Scout movement and with Cubs. Inquiries are invariably made of males who are proposed as leaders as to their background in this area And certain, of course, they're volunteers. Uh, the the member interjects, If he wants to answer this, he should get to his feet and answer [02:15:00] it because it is a very important matter, a very important matter. But it would, I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, be an offence to make these inquiries and act on them. And I understand that the Boy Scouts movement gets official cooperation from the police in making these inquiries. Now, um, if the bill is going to permit [02:15:30] that and there is no question of discrimination, please tell me because as I read it, it does not as I as I read it, it does not Now I move then to the question, as another member has raised it of the boys school and the boys school where there are boarding facilities. Is the bill going to permit known [02:16:00] homosexuals to be live in house masters in boys schools? And is it going to be an offence to say no? We discover that you are a homosexual and we can't keep you. You'll have to go now. These are very real questions that I think the committee has to concern itself with. Sure, they are impediments to the person who has this affliction, [02:16:30] but which is the greater right that's being infringed, the homosexual or the boys under his jurisdiction? Not that he may commit an offence after this bill is passed that is a criminal offence, but that he may engage in homosexual seduction now. There have been occasions in the recent past [02:17:00] where a public issue has been raised in at least one of our universities in connection with the Mr Chairman, uh, Doctor Bill, I believe that the member for he should be resuming his seat now is making a mistake.

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TITLE: Parliament: introduction of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill (8 March 1985)
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VOICES: Allan Wallbank; Eddie Isbey; Fran Wilde; Geoff Braybrooke; Gerald Wall; Graeme Lee; Helen Clark; Jim McLay; Merv Wellington; Neil Morrison; Norman Jones; Paul East; Richard Northey; Trevor de Cleene; Venn Young; Winston Peters
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; Alfred Kinsey; Allan Wallbank; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bible; Crimes Act (1961); Crimes Amendment Bill (1974, Venn Young); Eddie Isbey; Fran Wilde; Geoff Braybrooke; Gerald Wall; Graeme Lee; HIV / AIDS; Helen Clark; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Homosexual Law Reform Society; Jim McLay; Katherine O'Regan; Kinsey Reports; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Merv Wellington; Neil Morrison; New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF); Norman Jones; Oscar Wilde; Parliament buildings; Paul East; Richard Northey; STI; Sexual Behavior in the Human Female (book); Sexual Behavior in the Human Male (book); Trevor de Cleene; Venn Young; Wellington; Winston Peters; Wolfenden report; activism; adoption; age of consent; behaviour; child molestation; church; compassion; discrimination; equality; family; gay; health; heterosexual; homosexual; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; human rights; labels; language; law; marriage; marriage equality; militants; military; molestation; morality; pedophilia; perversion; police; politics; procreation; referendum; relationships; religion; sex; sexuality; sodomy
DATE: 8 March 1985
YEAR: 1985
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the introduction and first reading of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill in Parliament, 8 March 1985.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: A bill stands in the name of Fran Wild. Mr. Speaker, I move that leave be given to introduce the homosexual law reform bill. Mr. Speaker, at the outset, I want to make it quite clear that this bill is not a government or party measure. It is a private members bill, and as such, I would ask all members to listen to the debate and the issues carefully and to make their decision on the information the real information. Mr. Speaker, I'm brief. The bill is designed to eliminate legal sanctions on consenting homosexual [00:00:30] activity between adults, to remove the legal sanctions on anal intercourse between consenting adults, to strengthen protection for boys under 16, along the lines of protection already provided for girls and to outlaw discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation. The bill, as the house now has it before it is in the, is in the form of an omnibus bill to facilitate consideration and discussion during the various stages in parliament. However, it is intended to seek the leave of the House [00:01:00] to break the bill up into two component parts for final enactment as a Crimes Amendment Act and a human rights commission Amendment act, Mr Speaker, I will briefly outline the main changes which this bill would bring about. The amendments to the Crimes Act 1961 are found in part one Clause three of that repeals Section 140 of the Principal Act and substitutes two new sections. The present section relates to indecent act committed upon or with boys under the age of 16 [00:01:30] years. The new substituted sections adopt the approach followed in sections 1 33 and 1 34 of the principal Act which involve indecency with a girl under 12, and sexual intercourse or indecency with a girl between 12 and 16. The principal features of this approach are parallel to the provisions and the penalties that there are current currently provided for those sections dealing with girls. [00:02:00] Mr Speaker, Clause four repeals Section 141 of the Principal Act and substitutes a new section. The present section prohibits indecency between males. The new section follows section 135 relating to indecent assault on a woman or a girl of of or over the age of 16. In line with that provision, the maximum penalty for an offence against the new section 141 is raised to imprisonment for a term not exceeding seven years. Clause five Repeat section repeals [00:02:30] Section 142 of the principal act relating to sodomy and substitutes a new provision relating to anal intercourse. It is drafted on the assumption that the relevant provisions of the rate law reform bill presently before Parliament are enacted in broadly their present terms. In that event, nonconsensual anal intercourse will constitute the new crime of sexual violation and will be dealt with accordingly. For this reason, the new section 142 is limited to consensual anal intercourse and then only where it is [00:03:00] committed upon a person who is under 16 years or is severely subnormal. Mr. Speaker Clause six Repeals Section 146 of the principal act keep in place of resort for homosexual acts and consequentially amend Section 147 Brothel Keeping To make it clear that premises where male or female prostitutes work may be a brothel. For the purposes of this section, the the amendments to the Human Rights Commission Act come in part two and they will render [00:03:30] it unlawful to discriminate against the person on the ground of that person's sexual orientation where it is in those circumstances where it is presently unlawful to discriminate on the grounds of sex. Mr. Speaker, it is 10 years since this House last had the opportunity to consider. Consider a bill of this nature introduced at that time by the member, for there is no doubt that in that decade our community has developed an awareness of the justice of this cause. People have moved [00:04:00] steadily away from the knee jerk hysterical opposition to a position of more informed considered acknowledgement that there is no evidence in favour of the punitive criminal code, which deals with this area of consenting adult sexual activity. Even five years ago, there was majority support for homosexual law reform in a Hale poll of 2000 people. Those who oppose this bill advance a number of arguments, which I'm sure are based on a genuine [00:04:30] but mis misinformed concern about the nature of homosexuality and the effect on our community of legalising adult cons. Consenting homosexual activity. In the last few days, we have heard that homosexuality and in particular sodomy, is a violation of Christian moral standards. In fact, Mr Speaker, modern biblical scholarship with The assistance of the science of linguistics does not support the long held theory that the city [00:05:00] of Sodom was destroyed as a punishment for sodomy. The Old Testament story actually was an illustration of the effect of of continual violation of rigid hospitality customs and the homosexual punishment interpretation appears to have gained currency. About the second century AD. In the New Testament, Jesus said, practically nothing about sexuality and nothing at all about an age of consent. A rigid and complicated theology of sexuality which prescribed [00:05:30] homosexuality, began developing with Paul and proceeded down through the ages, ably assisted by a succession of Christian Roman emperors concerned as much with political and financial considerations and with the traditional opposition to Greek culture. It was strengthened during the Inquisition, when professional heresy hunters were employed to extinguish all forms of dissent, including sexual, religious and political nonconformism, which were very often defined and perceived as the same thing. [00:06:00] The treatment of homosexuality by the modern legal systems of European countries has until recent years been largely a relic of this history. Contemporary Christian views are more diverse, and legislatures in many many countries have also changed their opinions as a result of evidence gained from modern social and medical research. And more enlightened attitudes which have followed this information now often argue about the detrimental effects on the institution of the family [00:06:30] or on young people. Should adult male homosexuality be legalised? Those arguments should be examined by this house. All homosexual people, like all heterosexual people, are brought up in some kind of family. Most heterosexuals appreciate family life, as do most homosexuals. Homosexuals can and do produce Children. Many, particularly in New Zealand, are married, not necessarily happily, [00:07:00] because of the suppression of such an integral part of their personality. However, the effect of the current situation is that there are many, many New Zealanders who have a homosexual parent, either male or female. One of the major myths surrounding homosexuality is that gay people are child molesters. All statistical evidence from every place where it has been collected contradicts this overwhelmingly. Those who molest Children are heterosexual men who molest [00:07:30] young girls and less frequently young boys if they can't find a girl. But they are overwhelmingly heterosexual in their basic sexual orientation. Laws do not government Wellington central protection from assault and rape, particularly when it occurs in their own own home, where it most often occurs and the perpetrator is a relation or a friend. But it is not from adult homosexual men that Children are in more need of protection. They need [00:08:00] protection from adult heterosexuals, most notably fathers, uncles and relations and friends of the family. It was only a century ago that the idea of homosexuality and child molestation be became intertwined, as they are now, and that was the result of a law change in which anti homosexual provisions were slipped into legislation designed to curb child prostitution, which was rife at the time. The fact is that most adult gay men prefer [00:08:30] other adults and are attached to adults, just as most heterosexuals are. Opponents of this bill also claim that if it is passed, young people will be corrupted. They imply that if young people are exposed to ideas or information about homosexuality or to social or sexual contact with homosexuals, they will find it so attractive that they will themselves choose homosexuality again. There is no evidence whatsoever to back up this assumption. On the contrary, there is a vast body [00:09:00] of research showing that even actual sexual experience in the mid to late teenage years does not play any part in determining sexual orientation, the Royal College of Psychiatrists has publicly stated and given evidence to the effect that a person's primary sexual orientation is fixed very early in life, definitely before the age of 16, It is commonly accepted that at least a third of all males have some homosexual experience. Yet still, the number [00:09:30] in the population whose prime sexual orientation is homosexual remains on a much lower level. Whatever the state of the criminal law and any particular country, there will always be the same proportion of homosexual and heterosexual people in any population before or after a law change, as has been proved in places which do not have anti homosexual laws. I believe that protection from sexual exploitation, protection of people of any [00:10:00] age and any sex is not achieved by a law which totally bans male homosexual activity. Nor is it achieved by setting variant, varying ages of consent. Homosexual people are to be found in all walks of life amongst the educated, the uneducated professionals, manual workers, policy makers and administrators. I would venture to suggest that if all gay people were to be publicly identified, there would be much surprise [00:10:30] expressed. Many people would be moved to comment that that nice Mr Brown, the grocer or Mr Smith the doctor or Mr Jones, who works down at the factory, was actually gay. What a surprise. He seems so normal, Mr Speaker, There is one more compelling argument for the introduction of this bill. New Zealand, like other Western countries, is now faced with having to deal with the AIDS syndrome. We are relatively lucky in that, like most other things, both desirable and undesirable, [00:11:00] it has reached us last. We have the opportunity to learn from the mistakes of others. AIDS is not, as some have described it, a homosexual disease. It is a sexually transmissible syndrome, which can be caught by anyone who receives the virus through a bodily fluid. I should also add that it is not easy to catch in some parts of Africa, where it is very common. Heterosexual people are the main sufferers. However, in recent [00:11:30] years it has entered America and Europe primarily through the homosexual community, and therefore it has been gay people who have been largely the victims in places where the gay community can live an open life and associate with other homosexuals without fear of Reprisal. There are now being put in place big public education and health campaigns aimed at preventing the spread of AIDS in New Zealand. We have a problem in this respect. Homosexual acts are illegal, a very big proportion of homosexual men. No one knows exactly [00:12:00] how many are married living as heterosexuals. Many of these men express their homosexual orientation only occasionally through casual sexual contacts with strangers. They run the risk of acquiring AIDS and of passing it on to their wives. They are unlikely to come forward to identify themselves for diagnosis until it is too late. And AIDS is most infectious in its early stages, or to take the necessary steps recommended for safe sex to prevent the spread of AIDS in the first place. [00:12:30] Mr. Speaker, if we are to effectively combat the spread of AIDS in New Zealand, we must remove the criminal label from the Prime Target group and ensure that they feel secure enough to participate in a public education programme, Mr Speaker. Finally, I want to say that this bill is a serious attempt to reform the law and what I acknowledge can still be a contentious area. It is a private member's bill, and, as I have said, every person in this House has a free choice of how to vote. Introducing a private member's bill [00:13:00] is a basic right of all MP S as representatives of the people and it. It has become something of a convention in this House for members to vote for the introduction of such bills to enable the House to examine in, detail the proposals and hear the evidence at the Select committee. It has been 10 years since Parliament has had the chance to scrutinise this issue in that way, I know that some members support the principle of homosexual law reform but disagree with me on the age of consent. Others question the Human [00:13:30] Rights Commission proposal. I ask them to vote for the introduction of this bill. They will have the chance at a later stage to move or vote on any amendments they think appropriate and, of course, to vote on the two parts of the bill separately. Do not discard the whole bill because you do not agree with part of it this reform is long overdue in New Zealand, and I ask the House to vote to allow the introduction of the homosexual law reform bill. [00:14:00] The question is that leave be given to introduce the homosexual law reform bill. This bill does not involve an appropriation. The honourable Mr McClay, Mr. Speaker, members of the National Party will have a conscience vote on this bill for reasons that are well understood. It is not a matter on which there is party policy. There is no party line. The whips on this side of the House, sir, will not be operating. [00:14:30] And therefore, any member who seeks a division on any aspect of the bill will have to provide his or her own tellers. So, Mr Speaker, I think I've got to say that for many members on this side of the House, with the country reeling from crisis to crisis, this bill would not have enjoyed any high legislative priority at this time on the issue that is addressed by the bill itself. And I'll be brief, sir, because I know there are many members who do want to speak. I've always said that had [00:15:00] I been in Parliament in 1974 75 I would have supported the bill that was introduced then by my colleague, now the member for Wait Tora! That sir remains my position. It was a cautious bill. However, this is an area where I believe if there is to be change Parliament, acting in the interests of the whole community, has a responsibility to move cautiously. I am particularly concerned, sir, at the age of consent [00:15:30] provisions that are contained in the measure introduced by the member for Wellington Central. While any age is inevitably arbitrary, I am aware that strong evidence in 1974 75 persuaded the majority of the select committee to a higher age 20. I want to make it clear, sir, that I will not support the third reading of this bill If the 16 year old provision remains. Sir, it has been my practise. As [00:16:00] a local member of the parliament, I intend to consult with my electorate before exercising a final vote. Although I do have previous expressions of opinion from my electorate which provide me with some guide as to the attitudes of my constituents. Finally, sir, my vote as must be the case with all members of this house must be in accordance with my conscience. Sir, I am aware of differing religious points of view of the on this issue, but particularly of the fact that now [00:16:30] many of the mainstream churches support some change to the law, although probably not as radical as that which is proposed by the member for Wellington Central. I also want to say, sir, that I regard the argument that the bill should be passed to facilitate the treatment of AIDS as being utterly fallacious. Sir, for millennia, history has demonstrated that sexually transmitted diseases will be passed on regardless of the law, [00:17:00] as is the case with all such diseases, including those that result from legal heterosexual activity. Many sufferers do not seek treatment, not because the law prohibits their behaviour but because they fear embarrassment arising out of their predicament. The state of the law has nothing to do with those attitudes. Doctors do not sit in judgement on their patients. They do not report patients to the police because they have contracted [00:17:30] a disease that might have resulted from illegal sexual activity. Doctors act in accordance with their ethics and their professional oaths and they treat and care their patients regardless of the source of the disease, and certainly regardless of the law in that regard. In my view, sir, the sponsor of this bill does it a disservice by advancing that particular argument. Mr. Trevor de Clean, [00:18:00] Mr Speaker, I rise to support the member for Wellington Central and wish to compliment her on the courage in producing this private members Bill before the house and I speak in favour of its introduction. And I echo her strong words, sir, when she points out that it's a tradition in this house that a private member's bill should be given at least the first hearing so that the evidence for and against it can be heard and determined [00:18:30] in the rationale of a select committee. Now I am a member of Parliament, sir, but I was and still am a practising barrister of the High Court of New Zealand. Like most of the males in this chamber, I was brought up under a system that regarded homosexuality with odium and contempt, and I was brought up under a biblical training of the [00:19:00] famous So Sodom and Gomaa of Babylon and a great deal of the Old Testament. But I wish if we get into religious argument also, Mr Speaker, to refer them to Matthew 71 judge. Not that you be not judged now, sir, in the career at the bar, I have, of course, acted in many cases where people have been tried, convicted and indeed have had to have had pleas made in mitigation of penalty [00:19:30] Gradually throughout life. I became sympathetic to these people because of the tragedy and in making this submission to this chamber. Sir, I do not want in any way to think that I have got so far along the line of life that I condone that behaviour. The early training that I had certainly prevents me, probably coming to that step. But I have learned from the career at the bar not to be judgmental on fellow human beings, in their models [00:20:00] or in other matters. Secondly, the law teaches one the discipline of mind that enables you to look at some things with rationality rather than with emotion. And I hope that also, the members of this house will conduct themselves in approaching this matter in that regard. Now, I have seen presidents and I've acted, sir for pre, for a president of a rotary club who did tremendous service to his community in this regard and played a part in that [00:20:30] case. As a young man, I have acted sir for chairman of a county council who locked the scrum and a provincial rugby team and whose wife, when she became paralysed from the waist down in a very tragic car accident, reverted to what was described in the open court as practises that were forced upon him in a boy's boarding school. One could help not help but feel sympathy for those people now, Sir, that was the worst [00:21:00] type of case because they interfered with young boys. That is not the position of the bill. Before this House, I asked the lawyers in this house to look at it coldly and calmly and say that the law ought to be certain it ought to be fair, and it ought to be equitable between male and female. And one of my strongest arguments in supporting the member's bill before this House is the fact that it's not an offence to have such [00:21:30] consenting acts of intercourse between females. Why then should it be between males. And if we are to have true equality, which I'm sure the women of this house espouse and most of the men espouse, then there must be equality before the bar of justice, just as there must be before the bar of conscience. And I am saying so that this very act which we are now trying to bring in to reform the homosexual laws the very act which made [00:22:00] it an offence was only brought in by accident. Late one night, in a bill to protect prostitution of young women on the streets of London, Laha moved an amendment which was thought to be, in a further to stop the prostitution of young boys without the proper scrutiny of Parliament, with only a smaller members present. That bill was passed with that amendment, which did not have either the intention then, nor was it ever professed to have the intention, sir, [00:22:30] to make consenting males guilty at the bar of criminal justice. Of course, the tragedy was that one of the greatest of our literary exponents, Oscar Wilde, was one of the first to feel the lash of that law which was not then intended. It was brought into our law, sir, about 18. 57 adopting the English practises. And in 19 08, it became enshrined in the review and the legislative enactment of the common Law of a Felony into our laws of New Zealand. [00:23:00] I would point out, sir, that at that period of time, even then, it was not just a homosexual act, but it was an act offensive against women as well. And as the member for Wellington Central has pointed out, this Legislature has already sent to a select committee a bill largely in the form that the members of the opposition now saw it as before. It came before the statute provision for a second time, and that law will deal when it comes back before [00:23:30] this house with much of the nature of the heterosexual offence that was previously in other bills that came before this house, Mr Government, between males that are deemed of an adult age. I, too, like the leader of the opposition, wish to reserve my view on the question of age, although I'm bound to say that in logic again that if 16 is the consenting age for heterosexual intercourse and for women, then I must, [00:24:00] in favour of my own sex. Say this this that at least we are no less mature than the females of this world to exercise a judgement at an age of 16. And my present disposition is to say that both in logic and in reason that the age of 16 offensive though it must be to a great many members of this chamber, is the proper age. That is a view that I would reserve to be dispelled upon evidence before a select committee if such evidence were of the view and the overwhelming nature of [00:24:30] it was that that had to be a compromise with a later age. Now, sir, the report in Britain was a result not of anti establishment forces, not as a result of people of licentious behaviour. But I say to the members in this house who oppose this law or this introduction that in fact, it was a result of a movement largely by the churches themselves [00:25:00] that thought that in the interpretation of the law of God as they practised it, the judgmental attitudes were not something that the New Testament desired and which they were prepared to practise And that that indeed it was the bishops who finally got the wolfenden report before the House of Britain and that in Britain the law not under a conservative government but under a vote of conscience finally relaxed the [00:25:30] criminal acts that were then in vogue, Sir. And I may say that in the old days it was even a capital offence for which you were burnt at the stake. I see the member for Invercargill scratching his head. Well, might he be so because we burn in hell eventually, I might say to him, no matter what our judgement is No sir, not a flea just in the air. As I say to the member of Invercargill. Now I am saying to the house that if it's in England, it is no longer an offence in Denmark, it is no longer a offence, and many of the states [00:26:00] of the United States it is no longer an offence. This chamber in which we are present debating once took pride of the fact that it instituted laws that were followed all around the world and as a forerunner. Yet it is. It did that with the women's vote. It did that with much of our social welfare legislation. But historically it has always lagged behind the mos of the community when it has come to the boldness of attacking this matter of conscience. [00:26:30] I know, too, that it is the fear many men, that if they say all right, we believe that the law should be remedied. Mr Speaker, automatically, people in our own constituencies will say, Oh, he's one of those or he's something up and I've already worn my own wife. At least the telephone starts to run, as I knew it did when the member for wait to in his courageous fashion suffered at the bar of public opinion when he moved the same bill in 10 years' time. But I ask all people in this chamber to have at [00:27:00] least the courage of reason rational and conviction that how can they support Sir a criminal law which at one time makes it an offence in a male, but not for a female. I don't want to take up much more of the time, sir, because I can see that the member for Inter Cargill, Mr Nor Jones, is champing at the bit, and I would say this, sir, that if we are to get this matter before a select committee, then it must be that the evidence comes from all people, [00:27:30] bold and fearless on both sides. And I ask the community listening. I'm quite sure we'll get this before a select committee. I think the member for Wallington Central has a majority on introduction that when those submissions are made, I am hating people from all walks of life to come forward fearlessly before that committee to hear the evidence and to make their submissions in the best rational, legal, unemotional manner rather than to have what is a matter of law and of the present mors of the community [00:28:00] clouded too much by emotion, without reason. Mr. Norman Jones, the member for Palmerston North, wasn't being funny when he said Mr Normal Jones was having a bit get up sometimes. Mr Speaker, when I look around this chamber, I begin to wonder whether in fact I am normal or abnormal because, quite frankly, I am not with it as far as most of the members of this chamber concerned on certain issues and this would have to be one [00:28:30] of them and I don't go along with the with with what the new The new subculture says today that if you're not gay and that would be the worst travesty of a decent word that passed on ever in the language to call people that are homosexual gay, it used to mean something as significant as a date. It's a date. It's got the connotation of being homosexual. And as far as I'm concerned, all I know is that I am a perfectly normal person now from eight kids got six of my own. And as far as I'm concerned, [00:29:00] what I'm talking about and what this bill about is abnormal sex between males. It's it's about sodomy. And I'm not going to quote the Scriptures like the member for Wellington Central or the member for Palmerston North. I am just a poor Presbyterian that doesn't go to church only about once every two years. My wife is now the church. I don't care about those things. I'm not an atheist. All I know is, if the Good Lord wanted us to procreate the race through the rear, he had to put [00:29:30] the womb down there somewhere. That's all I can say and so we're not animals, and all I can say it's a moral issue for the greatest number of people in this country. And when I see these mainly emanate from the opposition. I've got a list here emanated from the member for Wellington Central, who supplied it to the homosexual lobby, saying Where we all? Well, they've got it and they certainly didn't get it from me. And I've got it here, which categorises all the members of Parliament into categories on this bill. Now this is the sickening thing. Mr Speaker and [00:30:00] the leader of the opposition referred to it. We know that private members' bills cannot get into this chamber unless there's a consensus of agreement for them to get in. I the order paper from the respective caucuses and when this country has got crisis after crisis facing it of grave and concerned consequence to people, the whole of their defence and security and God knows what else. Inflation costs them and the Labour Caucus is preoccupied with lobbying. Well, I've got many of them and my own caucus [00:30:30] preoccupied, agonising over whether homosexuals should they be legalised or I can say a moral issue. Yes and a funny thing. I'm not quoting scriptures, but it brief poses the question where I've got dozens and dozens of telegrams and of support, none from church leaders. Where are all these church leaders that were very quick to jump on the nuclear issue as a moral issue and say it's a moral issue facing? They spoke up on that. [00:31:00] I want to see those same church leaders speak up on this moral issue. I know all right. Talking about a nuclear free New Zealand, let them come out and say, Give us an aid free New Zealand. We want an aid free New Zealand. And as far as I'm concerned, the member for Palmerston North said, where it's been legalised, where it's been legalised is no problem. The whole of that, that aid disease, the homosexual has sprung from the communities of San Francisco, and places like that come into your own community. And I know [00:31:30] for a fact that the vote to legalise homosexuality at 60 years of age will be voting to legalise the spread of AIDS throughout this New Zealand community. No doubt at all in my mind about that, I don't believe this serious argument put up by the proposal of this bill that it will help to contain it. I don't believe that, and nobody else does. These people have come out in the open. They're in the open, these gay communities now it's sickening. They're in the opening there now. At 16 years of age [00:32:00] that won't stop at 16, it'll get down to 10 and 12. I taught in schools for 27 years. I've seen it. They're down in the low form and people practising it with kids. And there's been case after case. Any country headmaster knows I've had experience of kids at my school being interfered with as far as Mr Jones opposition in. And when this bill gets and I'm afraid there's enough of them in this in this Parliament because according the list that I've got, there'll be enough here to put it through on this on the tradition as they say that [00:32:30] our private members Bill ought to get before a select committee. Look, I'm no moralizer, but we cannot we interfere in film censorship. It's a literate censorship. I do believe I don't go along with the MPs that will say Well, give it a go Let the public has said those same MPs will go in there and turn around like Pontius Pilot, wash the hands of it and say, Look, it's not for MPs to interfere with what goes on in the bedroom. It's not going on in the bedroom. It's going [00:33:00] on in the schools, in the streets, in the community and it's spreading. It's spreading a disease, which there's no there's no no answer to. And as far as I'm concerned, I don't go on to these people that say we've washed our hands of this Parliament church I believe I do believe that it's the duty of Parliament to make some man made laws and standards and this would have to be one of them. And as far as I'm concerned, I intend to vote against this bill because all the euphemistic talk and rubbish about it, as far as I'm concerned, is not [00:33:30] going to stop the spread of it. The only thing that will stop the spread of homosexuality is the fact that the bulk of the public are against it. It's an they'll express their concern against it to select committee, and this parliament will sooner or later, somewhere along the line have to face up where they're going to legalise it. Now. All I can say is all I can say about all in mitigation of anything that's built. We are all concerned. No. When people start talking about sexual orientation [00:34:00] and all this sort of thing that's in the community and it's there, we know it's there. But to pass an act, to legalise it and to think that by passing that act and 16 or 20 whatever it is is going to is going to bring it out in the open and allow it to be acceptable. Yes, it will. It will make it so acceptable that it'll be apparent everywhere. It's difficult enough now in the school. It's different enough now in the home to try and teach some sort of status [00:34:30] to your kids. You can only do it by example. And where do you think the parents are going? They're looking for this. They're looking to the legislators here not to wash the hands of it and say some moral issues are conscience issues. I know that, and I'm not asking everybody to search their conscience. They can do it. There's a number of issues. You have to do it on, say, what is the best thing for a country I know. And I know with a gut feeling I don't have to be Scriptures. I don't have to moralise. I know with a gut feeling. This is wrong. It's wrong. It's wrong As far as the human [00:35:00] race is concerned, it's this greater moral issue, this sodomy and homosexuality and all this way out sexual orientation stuff. We're getting all this spurious talk about human rights and quoting Christian scriptures and all this rubbish all I know. And I say it again, that basically it's an to most human beings and where, in fact, the communities that have allowed it to exist and I can quote back into history about the Greeks and the Romans [00:35:30] and everybody else where it happened. Those civilizations have gone down the tube and they've gone down the tube because all this so called keeping up with the subculture trying to be on this one, you've got to stand up and be counted one way or the other. There are no halfway houses on this issue. You're either it or against it. Now I can know that intellectually, you can argue the logic of it. As far as I'm concerned, that is not our. This is to me is a bigger moral issue, and [00:36:00] I'll say there's more likelihood to have more new If this bill is passed, there will be more New Zealanders dying of AIDS in the next 10 years this country than whoever. None of them will be dying of a nuclear explosion that I'm as sure of that as I'm as sure of anything before I call the next member. Could I just draw the attention of those folk who are occupying the public gallery today to the fact that they are, of course not part of the debate, which is which is taking place here. And though [00:36:30] they may feel strongly and wish to register one way or the other or other the strength of their feelings, they must restrain themselves from doing so. Mr. Uh, Mr Speaker, the question of this being the greatest moral issue we've got in our time, I disagree with it entirely. As far as I'm concerned, the greatest immorality and obscenity is the nuclear weapon [00:37:00] and those who favour the nuclear issue in regard to the question of the morality of a recognition that there is a practise of homosexuality. And what is the attitude of this house and what is the attitude of Parliament? I stand here supporting the bill introduced by my colleague, the member for Wellington Central. And I do so fully conscious of the fact that we are debating an issue that, to the vast majority of our people, I would say is considered undesirable [00:37:30] but perfectly understandable. But, uh, we also know that there are other aspects of human activity within the heterosexual form of activity that is considered by very many people undesirable that most probably the manuals consider quite acceptable. And I would say that people would be out of their mind to try and have made some form of criminal [00:38:00] activity. My speech is not going to be a long one. All I'm going to say, Mr Speaker, is this so I think that this house must have progressed in this year of 1985 to the extent that we must consider whether we're going to still hound people who have a different sexual orientation, whether we're going to still helm them with the law the police, [00:38:30] the court, the prison cell, the public shame and everything else that goes with the law as it stands today. Or whether this house is going to progress to a viewpoint that was once stated by Pierre Trudeau in the same context that we should keep politics outside of the bedrooms of the nations. Now, if we do [00:39:00] have a heterosexual relationship that is based upon one human being relating in a warm, human way to another human being, this is generally applauded because it's a question of relating in a homosexual relationship over the age of consent. It is also possible for one human being to relate in a warm, human way to another human being. Should [00:39:30] this be considered criminal activity. That's the crux of the argument. The crux of this bill and what this bill is endeavouring to do, and it's something I support is to remove it being a crime. Surely murder is accepted as a crime. Rape is accepted as a crime. Burgling is accepted as a crime. Peddling [00:40:00] a drug is accepted as a crime. Should a human relationship between people over a certain age be considered some form of outrageous criminal activity. Mr. Speaker, I say people of our age and our period should have a good look at that and consider that it should not be a criminal form of activity. What is the [00:40:30] human torment that has gone on with this particular subject in many homes throughout our nation? What has been the torture that has gone on with very many people in all walks of life? On this very question, will this help perpetuate that human torment? Or will we take an attitude of human compassion and understanding to a different form of sexual orientation to possibly [00:41:00] ourselves? My view, Mr Speaker, is that we have arrived in New Zealand in a sort of coming of age. On this question, I totally support my colleague. I do it in a sense of fairness and justice, and I do it in a sense of human compassion for my fellow beings. I do not wish to hound people. I do not wish to use the thumb, [00:41:30] the rack, the thumbs boo the rack and the whip on people who have a particular form of human relationship that in no way is damaging to my person or my property. And I believe that's what the law is all about. And I think that in this law we must change. We must develop the age of consent. We must allow people to have a form of human relationship that is acceptable for themselves, understandable [00:42:00] in very many ways and in no way hurting other people. Mr. Speaker, I am in favour of this bill, the honourable Mr Speaker. It was 11 years ago since the Crimes Amendment bill was introduced to this house. It was referred to a select committee. The committee sat for almost one year before the bill was reported back and then considered in a second reading by the House [00:42:30] and defeated at that stage. I think it is appropriate that the House should again consider the next question of how far the law is required to intervene into what is the private morality of adults in our society. There is always a great difficulty in determining between [00:43:00] the role of the criminal law and the determinations that result from the moral code that develop in our community, and the member for Wellington Central will find as she handles this bill, she will have the exact identical problem to deal with in arguing for her proposal. I want to say [00:43:30] that a change in the law, or in fact the law itself, that doesn't make a great deal of difference, if any, to the amount of homosexual behaviour in our country. Whatever the law may say, there will always be a strong, a strong social attitude opposed to homosexual behaviour. That is the burden and the lot of the homosexual [00:44:00] in society, and the law cannot change that. But throughout our history as a nation, there has been a strong tradition that the law shall not punish simply because behaviour offends a moral that is accepted by society. Conduct that requires punishment should be of a harmful nature to individuals [00:44:30] or should offend their liberty or make people in our community, particularly the young, vulnerable. Now the law must intervene there, and it must intervene very firmly indeed, and therefore I must tell the member for Wellington Central, I am concerned about the 16 year old age of consent in her bill. [00:45:00] Parliament, having considered this matter some 10 years ago, determined that it should be 20 and I would expect that there will be many submissions to the select committee on this aspect of the legislation and Mr Speaker, Parliament cannot be asked to pass judgement on the rightness or the wrongness of the sexual behaviour [00:45:30] of consenting adults in private. But what it's being asked to do is consider whether a criminal sanction is in fact an inappropriate way of dealing with this matter in this day and age. Now, Mr Speaker, the bill as it returns to this house from the Select Committee if it indeed it is introduced, I would expect to [00:46:00] be quite a different measure from the way we see it Now, whether that is the case or not, time will tell. But what we must recognise, sir, that this problem has been addressed by Parliament across the world, in most of them in the Western nations, the law has been changed are certainly along the lines. That was in the 1974 crimes [00:46:30] amendment Bill. This bill goes far further than that and I echo the words of the leader of the opposition when we proceed with a change in the law in this area, if we do, we should proceed with caution. We should proceed with caution, Mr Speaker. It is appropriate that Parliament again consider this measure and at the towards [00:47:00] the protection of the young and the vulnerable. Mr. Bray Brook, Mr. Speaker, I rise to oppose the introduction of this bill, which seeks to legalise sodomy and indecent acts between males of 16 years and over. I acknowledge the fact that the member for Wellington Central who has introduced this bill has done so because of her very strong compassionate feelings in this matter. [00:47:30] However, Mr Speaker, notwithstanding this fact, I personally view homosexual activities as unnatural and perverted acts. Changing the law to legalise these acts will not, in my view, make it natural. This bill, Mr Speaker, unfortunately, seeks to give a cloak of respectability to homosexual activities. And my grave fear is that once it becomes known to young and immature people [00:48:00] that adults view homosexual acts as normal, it will intend to influence these young people. The indulgence in homosexual activity acts is, in my view, a threat to society and to family life and should not in any means be encouraged. Mr. Speaker, I do not wish to shun homosexuals as a person. Homosexuals require, in my view, both [00:48:30] medical and psychological treatment, they do not require a change in law. I am in my own view, quite convinced that the overwhelming majority of New Zealanders want a decent society based on sound experience, tolerance and Christian principles. Unfortunately, this bill fails to meet this criteria. Mr. Speaker, this house has a responsibility to protect and to promote family [00:49:00] life. My grave concern is that the next step with the militant gay rights movement. If this bill succeeds, will it be to press for acknowledgement of so-called gay marriages between consenting adults and also, of course, the adoption of Children? We have seen this happen overseas. I find this absolutely repugnant. [00:49:30] I, like other members of this house, have been lobbied by the gay rights homosexuals. They have attempted to present a bold and sometimes very defiant front and in spite of their endeavours to create an atmosphere of happy comradeship. I know. And I strongly suspect I should say that this is not so. In fact, Mr Speaker, if I'm perfectly honest with [00:50:00] myself, I am convinced that they and members of this house know in their heart of hearts that their actions are both evil and perverted. Mr. Speaker, I mentioned the militants in the gay rights movement. I think that they are a minority. I acknowledge that. But and even as close as this morning, my own family, my daughter and my wife have been subject [00:50:30] to insulting, abusive and threatening telephone calls. I find that action repugnant. I am also concerned of what will happen to the armed forces if this bill becomes law. I spent 20 years in the armed forces and I know that the actions of homosexuals indeed cause grave crisis in the attempts to maintain discipline. We are opening a Pandora's [00:51:00] box with this bill. What I have seen so far is that we are attempting to apply what I call academic debating logic to a moral issue, and people are pressing that type of point of view to introduce it. I believe that introducing the age of 16 is merely a sprat to catch a mackerel I learned many years ago, if you really want something else for double and accept half. [00:51:30] I do not accept consulting acts of sodomy between consenting adults at any age, and although I sympathise with their medical problem, I will not condemn their perversion and sodomy and can I conclude, Mr Speaker, by saying that I give notice to this house that should in the long course ahead, this house decide in its wisdom and against my [00:52:00] better judgement that it will enact this bill. I When the rules of the house permit, it will introduce a private members bill to facilitate a referendum throughout this nation. Because this act, if it is Condoned, affects every citizen. It affects the very basis of a Christian nation which we purport to be. And I give notice that that is what I will do. I oppose the bill. I urge all decent members [00:52:30] also to oppose this bill. Mr. Lee. Mr. Speaker, this is a repugnant bill, defends against God and man and should not be introduced to this house. I don't condemn the homosexual person people in that community that I count as genuine friends. And I have counsel with people in the homosexual community, [00:53:00] people with weaknesses and strengths, just like any one of us. But what I do is condemn the homosexual behaviour and there's a big difference. And we have heard a number of speeches with what I also class as debating phraseology, talking about compassion. People are what this place is all about, and that is not certainly removed in my contribution today to this [00:53:30] matter. What I condemn is the homosexual behaviour. This bill now seeks to change an existing law which is classed in Section 1 40 the Crimes Act 61 as an indecency between males. And we are asked here as legislators today to say yes to what is now an indecency to be called a decent [00:54:00] act, what is now in the law and abnormity to become normal. And the dictionary clarifies the point of indecency as an offensive standard of sexual behaviour and an abnormal means of obtaining sexual satisfaction. Therefore, I say to the house, Mr Speaker, that the question of the age has no real relevance in this debate. [00:54:30] There's no way then that the age can bear with any consequence on this matter. The question really is the basis of whether we are going to say yes to a matter that is classed as indecent as becoming suddenly decent. There is also the comment being made by several speeches, speakers about the fact that this bill will not facilitate the proliferation of the spread of [00:55:00] the homosexual community. Let the house know that there is no scientific evidence from a great period of time that supports that homosexuals are born, which is the same thing genetically, hormonally or biologically. There is no evidence to say that that is the way it happens. But indeed, there is considerable evidence and weighty evidence to say that in fact, homosexuality is a learned [00:55:30] is a learned behaviour. Now, Mr Speaker, the promo of the bill is asking us to accept her arguments as adequate for a change of law in this matter. And I just say to the house again, apart from the absurdity of of the inadequacy of the argument that she advances, that surely in the importance of this particular matter [00:56:00] and as legislated, we should not be moved until we are totally convinced, overwhelmingly convinced that this is the right thing. It shouldn't just stand up to scrutiny or be an argument of the day. I think the word was used, the coming of age situation, but we should only in the context of important this matter move when there is overwhelming evidence and it is just not there, just not present at all. The point of age [00:56:30] being overcome or ostensibly controlled by this measure is totally fallacious. It's without fact at all, and indeed, when we need to look to the Californian state and indeed other states where this has been introduced to know that with the explosion of homosexuality resulting from the decriminalisation aid has also commensurately increased. And in that particular area, 8132 people, [00:57:00] sufferers of that dread evil scourge. And no one of us doesn't feel deeply concerned about that. That terrible disease of AIDS, which destroys the leucocytes in the body and makes even a common cold a fatal encounter. But the fact is that over there it has exploded and even 500 women are infected, which ought to be a point of ponder. So the facts around the world are [00:57:30] aware that this has been decriminalised. In fact, aid has not been controlled. It's been quite the reverse, quite the reverse Mr Lee opposition that the promoter of the bill said, in terms of of I think removing any religious experiences being qualified in this matter and using the words of the Lord Jesus to say that he, or rather to say that he did not, in fact, directly [00:58:00] condemn homosexuality, and she's right in the context of that. But what she must face up to and accept is that the whole the whole canon of Scripture, both Old Testament and New Testament, the Old Testament very explicitly talks about the abolition of this particular behaviour. And the New Testament says equally clearly in many passages, those people without natural affection have got [00:58:30] no place in the standards that God would set. And let me just say to the house that if we believe that that is out of the modernity of our legislative age, then that's part of the fact that we subscribe to Westminster's system, which is built and founded on the judeo-christian ethic. And if we want to be consistent in anything, we must say that that ethic governs this house, and therefore we must be concerned and cognizant [00:59:00] of the biblical teaching in this matter. And I have had letters from people to say, How can you stand up holding strong religious beliefs and speak in this manner? It's a total absurdity not to do so, Mr Speaker. The question is, what do the New Zealanders want from this matter and I want to say to that we don't have any evidence from anywhere at this time to say that the public of New Zealand wants a change of law in this context. Who can tell me who can stand up [00:59:30] here and say that the public of New Zealand wants the law changed? I raised it in the middle of last week simply because I sensed that this may happen in the rapidity it has. And I want to know why in actual pack, why the scheme to bring it in with such rapidity? Why was it possible for the public to have the chance to say something? But I don't believe even with that chance, which would could have been and should have been afforded to them that there would have been a response other than to confirm [01:00:00] that there is no reason for a change. There is only four or 5%. Some claim 10% of the population within the homosexual community. And I believe with the telegrams I've got which are saying to me time and time again, the many scores of telegrams that we want this house to stay firm on the matter to stay firm on the matter, and I believe that can't be refuted in this house today. I'm concerned about the question of where this is leading to. [01:00:30] I don't know that I understand fully the context of Bill and so far that it refers to the question of the brothel. But I do understand and see the very strong thread of morality proliferating and whether it just be a member of the government or the member of the government, the whole I want to say this house. There is a moral madness that seems to be occupying the legislation these days. How many other acts have been passed in recent time with strong humanist overtones? [01:01:00] Where is the next move? Where is the next law? Moral benchmark? If there is a law moral benchmark in this matter, well, it could be a Bush on demand, and I think we have good reason to expect that. That would be a move coming from at least a member of government. Mr. Speaker, I think that, uh, we Although there's a free debate across the house on this, members are still restricted to standing orders. Now this bill does not relate to anything else but homosexuality. [01:01:30] And, uh, there's no, uh I'm not taking, uh, allowing any member to throw another accusation across the floor that somebody else is going to introduce another. Another matter on a some sort of a, uh, what might be called another moral issue. I'd asked the member to come back. He's been until now at the point where I interrupted. He's been speaking very, uh, properly under standing orders of the bill and I asked to keep to Mr Lee. Mr. Speaker, I'm sorry, II. I feel angry. [01:02:00] I feel angry about this matter. Well, I just put in conclusion the scenario from the situation that affects our families and our home fronts. How can this house, in passing this bill, believe any longer that the family unit is the fundamental cornerstone of the society? How both of us as parties can subscribe to that and still be party to passing a bill today? If that is the ultimate outcome, it makes a mockery, a lie of that situation. And [01:02:30] what about the family unit and those of us who are parents here today and who have teenagers? Are you satisfied that your child or your young son at the age of 16 who can then be approached and recruited by the home of community. Is that what you really want? Can you tell me and stand up to say that that is entirely a matter that you would face and be relaxed in and comfortable in that knowledge? What about the classrooms of our nation? Are you satisfied again as parents that what will happen across [01:03:00] the nation historically proven from overseas, particularly in California, the proliferation influence which will result? Are you happy about that? The answer can only be surely negative. Uh, doctor, it's very difficult in a situation as highly charged as this whole field of sexual relations to get any logical approach to a problem such as this. [01:03:30] But I think we'll serve this country ill if we do not attempt to do some very hard thinking about it. And the first issue I would take is whether it is logical to threaten because we've got to face the reality. This has been very little done in practise in the last 20 odd years, and I believe almost not at all in the last 10, but that we should in practise take people who have been involved in [01:04:00] homosexual acts, put them in jail amongst their own sects and hold them there. An environment which in which one of the greatest problems has been and as far as prisons as long as prisons have existed, has been homosexual activity, which is going on in all prisons. Now the logic of that absolutely defeats me [01:04:30] that we should try and stamp out a particular type of behaviour by putting people in an environment where they are most prone to be involved in this behaviour. So for that reason, I will strongly support its introduction. But I cannot go along with the subject, which I don't think is biologically or socially [01:05:00] well based, that there should be an equality of age, chronological age between males and females, and judging whether they are emotionally secure enough and old enough to make a free adult decision concerning their sexual acts. Now everyone who has brought up a family that makes sense has been educated by the Children themselves in the fact [01:05:30] that the chronological age is almost as irrelevant in the development of both security and maturity in those Children as their height is. But by and large, boys tend to be round about 2 to 3 years, slow in achieving maturity in their tee or such maturity as they get in their teens than girls do, so that I am totally [01:06:00] at a loss to understand the logic of placing the cut off point as a simple chronological level for both sexes. That, to me, is not facing reality any more than the decision to put people into jail for homosexual acts. Both of those attitudes we are a logic. The other matter, which [01:06:30] will naturally concern the House, is the provision for very wide sweeping provisions in the Human Rights Act to be invoked to prevent discrimination on people on the grounds of their homosexuality. I have no doubt that this subject will be explored at length in the committee and at the second reading stages, and quite rightly so. Its implications to me are [01:07:00] very much more of social concern than some of the other two implications in this bill. But in the present environment, it's impossible, I think, to divorce, divorce, the consideration of this bill from the very great public concern which we in this house share. If the spread of the disease. AIDS now [01:07:30] optimistic noises have been made from medical and medical administrative circles about steps being taken to control this disorder. DR Wa government. The people are whom I consult on this, the less they confirm that optimism but that we have been a programme has been announced. It's been instituted amongst [01:08:00] the community most likely to be affected to help control this. But the simplicity of the programme has not been made public. My understanding of it is, but it is a three pronged programme and I think this is well. Cons would be well considered here by members when they're thinking of this legislation. The first and most effective method [01:08:30] of control is to abolish or a strict from security amongst homosexuals that is absolute. The main trust and seen were that achievable then the threat of AIDS would be greatly diminished. The second is that in the inability to achieve that result, [01:09:00] they recommend the use of a sheath to act as a physical barrier to prevent the transference of of the infected cells. And the third approach is the other great group who are at risk the those illegally and improperly using drugs to inject intravenously. Now it disagreed. But all of those groups are notoriously resistant [01:09:30] to advice and guidance from those who may see as outside their peer group and, uh, preaching at them so that the prospect of control at present looks remote. The authorities are hopeless, hoping, and that's their belief in this could be brought no stronger [01:10:00] than that. That was the passage of this legislation and the decriminalisation of the act that more people may make themselves available to counselling. Now that is the only hope that is seen. And I doubt if overseas experience bears that out. The prospect of the development of a cure or a prophylactic vaccine to [01:10:30] AIDS at present appears remote. One cannot say in any field of medical endeavour, and particularly in this particularly abstruse scientific field, that a breakthrough will not occur. But it's just one of a wide group of viruses retroviruses in which, because of the very nature of the virus and the nature of its uh infestation in the body makes this particularly [01:11:00] technically difficult so that an early positive result in this is not in the state of present knowledge to be expected now, it's in that background. But we are considering this measure that doesn't make it easier. And it makes the prospect of a strictly logical approach to it, taking into consideration the realities of the circumstances more difficult than it normally [01:11:30] would be. In this most contentious matter, I would support its introduction, and I would hope that the House would examine it very carefully at all stages. Because whilst some of the matters in it are, I think without a doubt and advance on our present legal system, there are others in it that are fraught with very great change. Mr. Wellington. Mr. Speaker, I've listened to the member for [01:12:00] it's great and just because I have respect for his views on these matters and others associated with it, however, Mr Speaker, on this occasion I cannot agree with this proposition that this bill be introduced. Mr. Speaker, many of the reasons for those of us who are opposed to the measure have been well canvassed and in some instances, eloquently so. I think an elected assembly of this type [01:12:30] needs to ask of a measure of this nature. What good does it do? How will the community benefit how will the well-being and good of the community be enhanced? And I agree with some earlier speakers, Mr Speaker, when they noted that there is no compelling [01:13:00] or novel or dramatic evidence of a recent nature to suggest that the customs norms and conventions that have served us so well for so long and this and other areas should be changed. It's common and natural to allude to the experience or experiences in other countries. This is New Zealand, We are New Zealanders. And I believe, [01:13:30] sir, we should trust our own judgement in these matters. Second thing. And it's an obvious thing to say. Is it naturally given a free vote on an issue of this type? A member's own attitudes bear heavily on his or her response or reaction. Mr. Speaker, my thinking on the matter is to a large degree, governed by the fact that for many years I served [01:14:00] as a secondary school teacher, indeed, went at the age of 12 to a boarding school at which I remained for five years and as the house know, served for nearly six years as minister of education, I would simply say to the member for Wellington Central who has introduced this bill. That is a result of my experience. And if I may say so, knowledge is a result of a very [01:14:30] close and intimate association with the teaching and training of young people over a lengthy period of time. But that which he has brought to the House this morning would bring untold misery, dissatisfaction, dissension and discord into these schools and obviously particularly the secondary schools of New Zealand. And so I go back to where I started. [01:15:00] Given that, what good does it do? How is the climate of the nation enhanced? How are the training platforms, uh, of our young people? Better by this sort of proposition. Finally, Mr and I know the member Roger is anxious to get in. Finally, you're hurrying me along. Finally, Mr Mr Speaker and I would ask [01:15:30] the member for Wellington Central to bear that sort of thing in mind. I believe the member for Invercargill was absolutely right when he said The people outside of this assembly, I am sure will be surprised at a time of difficulty for New Zealand in so many ways that we are devoting time to this particular matter at this particular time of the year. [01:16:00] Can I also just throw into the debate? And no animosity is intended that the author of the Bill and I take the word of her own colleague that her motives are genuine is nevertheless a government whip. Is this some attempt to divert Parliament and the country from the the weighty measures that are and should [01:16:30] be properly before us at this particular time? Mr. Speaker, I must make it absolutely clear you'll have seen. I've been sitting here throughout this debate that this is in no way a government measure. This is a private member's bill, and it was merely notified to the government caucus. As a matter of courtesy, you're speaking to the No Mr Chairman. I did not suggest it was a government measure. I've been [01:17:00] in the house long enough to understand what is a private member's bill and what is not, I simply said, and I repeat, I throw into the discussion. I think that, in fact, that the measure has been proposed by a government whip, but I think we want to make progress. There's nothing really I can rule on here. The question was asked, uh of the whether there because of the uh, it's it's It's a question which could be asked and I think it's been adequately answered. Yes, thank you, Mr Mr [01:17:30] Speaker, In conclusion to an issue of this time, I believe two questions need to be applied. Is it essential or desirable or neither Is it right or is it wrong? Mr. Speaker, this measure is neither essential nor desirable, and it is certainly not right. Helen Clark, Speaker. I would like to begin [01:18:00] by commending the member for Wellington central to this house for her courage in bringing forward this measure. It is always easier not to take a position on issues of this kind, and in this case it is always easier to leave. It left S firmly swept under the carpet. It's easier to ignore the very real human rights issues which are involved in denying a minority of the population their civil rights. And I believe it is to the credit of the [01:18:30] member for Wellington Central that she has not ducked this question, that she has been prepared to stand up for the human and civil rights of a minority of the people of this country. I see the bill as very much a human rights issue. It poses one simple question to us as members of this house. And that is this. Should consenting adult males be regarded as criminals in the eyes of the law because of their sexual preferences [01:19:00] and practises? Should they be regarded as criminals in the eyes of the law because of their sexual preferences and practises? So this bill challenges us to put side our prejudices, our predispositions, and it appeals to the rational side of each of us for some tolerance and acceptance of the sexual orientation of and practises of others. I myself take the view that what consenting adults do [01:19:30] in private is none of my business, and it is not the business of the law of this land. Accordingly, sir, I support the introduction of the bill. I agree with the member for Wellington Central when she said this that basic social justice demands that we now pass this bill. It is unjust and unjustifiable to continue to oppress a large section of the population because of their sexual preference. When considering [01:20:00] whether or not to decriminalise sir, I think we should bear in mind that among Western countries with whom we generally compare ourselves. New Zealand shares with Ireland the rather dubious distinction of being the only country to apply blanket criminal sanctions to homosexuality. There is a book out called The World Human Rights Guide, which gives New Zealand the top rating of any country in the world on human rights issues. [01:20:30] Together with Denmark and Finland, we score 96% in terms of compliance with generally, uh, generally recognised human rights matters. The only blot that the authors of that guide could find on the human rights record of New Zealand was our denial of civil rights to male homosexuals. And I say, sir, that in this country we could be proud of having a human [01:21:00] rights record of pretty close to 100% if we pass this bill because that is the only outstanding blot on our record in the world community. If we look at the clauses of the bill, it in no way promotes homosexuality. It simply removes the criminal sanctions against it. It removes criminal sanctions against consensual homosexual contact between [01:21:30] people who consent to such activity. The bill ensures that the same protection will be given to adolescent men and boys from homosexual activity, as is given to adolescent women and girls from heterosexual activity. In both cases. Under this bill, sexual assault of under 12 year olds, whether girls or boys, will attract a term of imprisonment of up to 10 years. Sexual assaults [01:22:00] against boys as against girls elsewhere in the law aged between 12 and 16 will attract a term of imprisonment of up to seven years. That constitutes, in my view, adequate legal protection for male and female Children and adolescents from predatory adults. And unfortunately, they are about practical protection from predatory adults, of course, depends on greater public awareness of the problem of sexual abuse [01:22:30] in New Zealand. And it is one of the more unfortunate myths, which is sometimes propounded about homosexuality that somehow child molestation is connected with it. In fact, all the research evidence suggests that it is overwhelmingly adult heterosexuals who offend in the area of child molestation. And it is certainly no argument against this bill to link child molestation to homosexuality. That is not a fair [01:23:00] link at all. Helen Clark, governments in other areas, too, in the area of indecent assault men indecently assaulted by other men will be treated with the same severe men who assault. Other men will be treated with the same severity as men who assault women. That is, with a maximum term of seven years imprisonment and the keeping of brothels. Again. The law is brought into line so that keeping a brothel for either male or female [01:23:30] prostitution is treated with equal severity in the eyes of the law. I mentioned sir unfortunate myths about homosexuality. There are many prevalent in this community, and they prevent some people considering the question of decriminalisation of homosexual activity in a rational fashion. One myth is that homosexuality is somehow an or abnormal practise. Nothing could be further from [01:24:00] the truth. Homosexuality is part of the normal range of human sexual responses. Kinsey's research in the United States 40 years ago bears that out, and I want to remind members of the house what that research found 40 years ago. It found that 37% of all white males have some overt homosexual experience. Between 16 and 55 25% have more than incidental homosexual [01:24:30] experience for at least three years. During that age span, 18% have at least as much homosexual as heterosexual experience for at least three years of their lives. 13% have more homosexual and heterosexual experience for at least three years. 10% are more or less exclusively homosexual for at least three years. 8% are exclusively homosexual. For at least three years between the ages of 16 and 55 [01:25:00] 4% are exclusively homosexual for at least three years, for 4% are exclusively homosexual throughout their lives after adolescence. Now I find nothing threatening about those findings. Nothing threatening about the incidence of homosexuality in the community. And I believe that what that research shows is that there has been widespread homosexual practise for [01:25:30] many, many years in the international community forever, in fact, and that is evidence of its normality as one of a range of human experiences. In the end, exclusive homosexual preference is a minority taste, but that is no reason for the minority, which prefers that taste to be persecuted. Our societies and others which repress homosexual expression do very great psychological damage to those individual [01:26:00] human beings who are oriented to homosexuality, and one can well imagine the trauma which is inflicted on people who are told throughout their lives that their behaviour is disgusting or filthy, or when words of that kind are used. It is very important that we remove that stigma. Another myth often propounded, is that homosexuality somehow equates with promiscuity. The truth is, of course, that when you have a law like the one we [01:26:30] have, it tends to promote promiscuity rather than do the opposite, because a law such as we have at the moment works against the formation of stable relationships, because stable homosexual relationships attract more attention from the snooping neighbour who may alert the authority. And I would hope, sir, that with decriminalisation, we see homosexuals in this community able to form stable relationships with the sanction [01:27:00] of the law in saying that one is in no way promoting homosexuality but recognising that it exists in the community and saying it should not be an unlawful activity. In conclusion, sir, I want to say that the bill is, of course, a conscience vote. It is not a government bill, and individual members will have to make up their own minds on how to vote without the direction from their party whips. I would ask all members to think very carefully [01:27:30] before exercising their conscience on the bill because the human and civil rights of other people are in your hands. Our members are prepared to allow their conscience to stand in the way of human rights fulfilment for others, I rec recommend that those whose initial predisposition is not to support the measure to give it the right to an introduction and consider the evidence at a later stage. Paul East, Mr Speaker Many [01:28:00] parliamentary observers would hold the view that the best debates that take place in this chamber are those that surround these difficult conscience issues. And I have to say that although I disagree with many of the people who have spoken in this debate, I would not question their sincerity or their compassion, and it's difficult for members when we don't have the comfort of our caucuses to try and reach a resolution on these problems, we have to grapple with our own [01:28:30] conscience before we can finally decide how we will vote. I start at the point and I I disagree with the member for Mount Albert because I start at the point that homosexual behaviour is unnatural, something most of us find abhorrent and should in no way be encouraged. And I believe that if it is made lawful, there is a risk that it will be more visible, more open and perhaps younger [01:29:00] people will accept it as a normal way of life. Now that shouldn't happen. But on the other hand, little is achieved by persecuting those who have taken up a homosexual way of life, particularly if this life is carried out in a private manner without offending the moral standards of the vast majority of the population. And as a practising lawyer, I share the thoughts of the member for Palmerston [01:29:30] North, and I have also seen something of the agony that's been caused by our existing legislation. Given that situation, Mr Speaker, I will vote for the first reading of this bill. But I do so with considerable reluctance because, in my view, the bill has many defects, and I must say that I am unlikely to support this bill in its present form beyond the first reading. And I believe that those sentiments are [01:30:00] shared by many of my colleagues that I have discussed this matter with on an informal basis who will also be voting for the first reading. But this is a serious matter that Parliament should study. It's a serious matter that a select committee should investigate tear evidence upon and then report back to this chamber. But I wish to make my position clear that I although I will vote for this first reading, I would [01:30:30] not support this bill in its present form. Beyond that, I cannot countenance the legalisation of homosexuality for those under the age of 20 years. We all know that teenagers are young and impressionable. 16 and 17 year olds are passing through an emotional transitional period of life. And for my part, the age limit in this legislation should [01:31:00] be 20 years of age. Similarly, I have concern about the human rights amendments in this legislation because what that part of the bill is endeavouring to do is to establish that a homosexual lifestyle is no different from a heterosexual one. And at that point I depart from the thinking of the author of the bill. I also believe that the argument of AIDS that has [01:31:30] been put forward by proponents of this legislation is specious. No doctor or any authority would do anything that would discourage a homosexual person from seeking help. And I don't believe the law, as it is at the present time, can be shown to have discouraged homosexuals who believe they may suffer from AIDS from seeking such assistance. So while I state I will vote [01:32:00] for the first reading of the bill, there is much that I oppose. And I believe I speak for many members of the house who will also be voting for the first reading but hold similar reservations. Mr War Bank, My words are few and my message abundantly clear. I have a deep, sincere belief that what is written in the Bible is the right and proper [01:32:30] way to conduct and discipline one's life, irrespective of whether you are religious. By inclination or not, Christian teaching is quite explicit on sodomy and personal behaviour. In the New Testament, the general epistle of Jude false teachers verses 16. I quote. These are murmurous complainers [01:33:00] walking after their own lust and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's person in admiration because of advantage. End of quote. Homosexuality is not only an unnatural act, it is now a very dangerous one, with the epidemic like spread of AIDS almost upon us. I [01:33:30] will not be responsible for passing legislation that is going to place my fellow New Zealanders at greater risk for this deadly disease. The people of Gisborne did not elect me to this office to be irresponsible. What I believe is important right now, Mr Speaker, are the basic fundamental needs of our people, the right to a home, a job of work [01:34:00] and a decent standard of living. Those are our priorities. Did that many Christians would now consider me to be a total backslider and probably not without some foundation. So I have looked. I've been able to look upon this whole area of legislation from many angles. I I have many homosexual friends who I consider and hold in the highest esteem. So let me say at the outset I seek [01:34:30] no retribution for the for anybody else nor oppression for any other people who have any other difference. Different preference than I have. And people will always be different and they always have been, uh and I seek to see nobody put in a situation which compromises their civil rights over others. But it is a complicated question, Mr Speaker. And the first question I must ask, Is it the purpose of this house to be concerned with [01:35:00] the nation's morals? Well, of course, the answer has to be Yes, you do not allow me to go home and have intercourse with my daughter and for very good reason, because the the product of that connection would be a mutation. It is the job of this house, Mr Speaker, to consider the morals of a nation when it comes to censorship. Without a doubt, this house is concerned [01:35:30] with morals and moral standards and moral guidelines. Your next question is, Do I represent my electorate? Now? I have been asked, Have I done a referendum in my electorate? It is hardly my fault if we had the crudest form of democracy in the world, and I certainly do not expect to go to my expense to have to make this democratic system work in this country to do a referendum in my electorate. I haven't done a referendum, and I believe [01:36:00] on issues such as this. It is important that I, as a member representing my electorate, make my clear views clear and unquestionable. The second question, I must ask, Uh, Mr Speaker is the one of civilization. Is civilization something without beginning and end? Is it just a mutant that evolves along or or is it the order of man and woman and a destiny that we have control, which demands [01:36:30] a purpose? I believe we are here for a purpose. The purpose of human life and the purpose of human betterment. And if it is, if we are here for a purpose, then it is incumbent upon us as legislators to to provide reasonable guidelines as to how that society should evolve. If we are here without purpose, no beginning, no end. Why do we dissipate so much time talking about the nuclear war? We might as well evolve into dust because nothing was ever [01:37:00] gained from us being here and nothing will be lost. I believe it is in the purpose of man to decide on the destiny, his destiny. And for that reason, I am speaking on this bill For that reason, I oppose the nuclear armaments race For those people who would, uh, pull quotes from the Bible, I must say it is a grand book, a grand book, and The quote that always impresses me is that he who is without sin [01:37:30] cast the first stone and perhaps Mr Speaker. That's why we don't see many broken windows. Now, Mr Speaker, I have seen the list which is going around of who are the good, uh, supporters and who aren't. And I notice, Mr Speaker that I am on the list of the bad people. I don't consider myself bad further to that, Mr Speaker, I don't consider others bad either, but I do consider it is the job of this house to set [01:38:00] some guideline which the nation should follow. I have three simple questions in conclusion, Mr Speaker. Is homosexuality in the natural order of things? I think not. Does it have purpose for an ongoing civilization? I think not. Is it productive for the future of our civilization? I think not. For those reasons, Mr Speaker, I will vote against the first reading, [01:38:30] Richard nor Mr Speaker. I must say that I am in strongly in support of this bill and that I congratulate the member for Wellington Central for introducing it. My commitment to this change goes back a very long time. Been a member of the Homosexual Law Reform Society since the middle 19 sixties. In my first speech as a candidate for election to this this [01:39:00] parliament, I stated my commitment to bring in this reform, and in my first speech in this house, I also committed myself to it as a member for Eden. I think it is important to state that the issue was raised in the previous election campaign in that electorate and that it is important that that should not be an issue in the future, that this change can enable equal [01:39:30] access to power and responsibility to all persons, and that this bill will help to bring this about. I don't agree with those who say that we shouldn't be considering this matter at this time. There are other, more urgent matters. I consider it a vital and urgent matter for significant group in the community, are denied their rights to equality and to human decency and compassion, as the current law does. [01:40:00] It is fundamentally a question of human rights, both individually and collectively, and that equality of treatment to all and activities which are clearly consenting and knowledgeable is the right of all. I record that This is a private member's bill. It is not, in any sense a government bill, and therefore it is up to us each as individuals to determine our views on it. [01:40:30] I reject the idea, and the evidence is very clear. That homosexual or for that matter, heterosexual preference is developed through corruption by word or deed by others. It is nonsense and that even the sexual act itself, by through oppression, creates and determines sexual orientation and identity. [01:41:00] People's sexual identity is largely determined before the age of 16, and it is not something which is achieved in this sort of oppressive way. In that sense, women who are just above the age of 16 must be considered to be in just as much danger from older men as [01:41:30] young men are from older men. In that sense, we should look at this in an equal sense, and I think at the with the current law operating as it is, those people in their late teens and early twenties for whom there may be some questions of ensuring their sexual identity and in fact, dealing with sexual problems that in fact, while [01:42:00] particular acts are illegal, there is the difficulty in obtaining the counselling and advice that is necessary for them to seek an order to determine this. In particular, the lack of access to knowledge and information on this matter is something which intensifies feelings of sexual oppression and inadequacy and must be changed both within the schools and elsewhere, and in particular, [01:42:30] as has been raised before the question of sexually transmitted diseases such as AIDS. It is vital that people can seek the information that they need, that it is openly available. It is not just a matter of being able to go to their doctor or to a clinic if they feel that they have a disease that is a matter of the matter. Being out in the open and being able to obtain the information that they need in a clear and determined [01:43:00] way and that being available in the community at large, I reject utterly the view that homosexuals are predominantly child molesters. In fact, as others have said in this debate, that is a problem that arises with both homosexual and heterosexual activity, and it is predominantly a problem with heterosexual men with respect to young women. We [01:43:30] must deal with this equally and in particular. It's quite clear in the bill that the current levels of penalty and social and other action against those who have sexual activity with minors or people, um, of, uh, inferior intellectual ability remain in the law, and that is quite clear. So that is not an issue. The fact that has been [01:44:00] raised that homosexual acts cannot be procreative acts and yet surely for all of us in this house and outside our seeking of affection, physical affection is very rarely carried out for that purpose, and to deny the expression of physical affection to a significant section of the community because of that is quite ludicrous, Richard, [01:44:30] he said. Where are the government sending us telegrams asking us to oppose this change? Most of the church leaders in the country support the change. The conferences of most of the major churches have endorsed the need for change. On many occasions. The Methodists, Presbyterians and others come readily to mind those people who deal with the Catholic Church, those people who work with in the areas of, um, sexual questions [01:45:00] the psychiatrists, the social workers, these people have come out for the need for change in this area. It is a question I respect that people find it abhorrent to contemplate acts that are contrary to their own personal sexual identity. It is crucial in one one's own development that one sets boundaries for oneself and that other types [01:45:30] of activity therefore seem particularly abhorrent and unpleasant. But that fact should not get us in parliament to legislate, to make our particular standards of sexual behaviour and orientation to be enforced on others for whom heterosexual activities for them seem just as unnatural and abhorrent. And the idea that it is unnatural when it has been a consistent, [01:46:00] uh, activity by a substantial minority in our community, in all societies, in all ages. Whatever the law has been in, those societies clearly shows that it is a natural as natural as left handedness or other forms of, uh, activity and personal characteristics, which are in a minority. And as the Kinsey report says, more than a third of males have [01:46:30] had sexual activity to the point of orgasm. At some stage in their life, it is normal, and it is a question of removing the myths and and the and restoring the question of basic human rights, basic decency and equality. I support the change required in the Human Rights Act to protect the rights of homosexuals in employment. I say that the referendum has been carried out in debate [01:47:00] in the public and that every recent public opinion poll quite clearly shows that a majority of people now clearly support this change. It is what the people, I'm sure in my electorate as and others want it is something that I have committed myself to, and the messages of support have been overwhelmingly in favour. I've only had two messages against. [01:47:30] I think that members should take their courage and get rid of this overdue, oppressive legislation and enable the the questions to be to to get rid of the suppression and to give people their rights as human beings, which is long overdue. Mr. Peters, I say that the introduction of a private member's bill is, of course, the right of all members of Parliament. But there has been [01:48:00] a longstanding convention in this house that those who are in cabinet or undersecretaries or whips will in such events serve, give the bill over to somebody on the backbench. A long standing decade old, decades old convention. And I want to say to the mover of this bill that she does her colleagues harm because out in the public, the perception will be that this is the Labour Party bill. Make no mistake. And, sir, this is the second time this member has done that. And I want to say to [01:48:30] her if she wants to have this sort of what she calls reform brought before Parliament, then she should do her colleagues a service and hand it over to a backbench member to do it without the constraints of past convention. Now, Mr Speaker, I'm sorry to interrupt the Honourable member at this point, but, uh, the time has come for me to call on the, uh, honourable member for, uh, Wellington Central in reply. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I'd like to thank all the members of this house who have contributed [01:49:00] to this debate. Um, I think on the whole it has been a serious and constructive debate, and perhaps it's a pity that we can't as one of the members suggested to have more debates that are taken as seriously as this. Um, I would in particular like to thank those who have spoken in favour of the bill. It is an issue which will not necessarily, um, always earn them votes in their electorates. And I appreciate the fact that apart from voting for it, they've been prepared to stand [01:49:30] up and speak their minds on it. I have a couple of comments to make on, uh, some of the things that have been said, Um, some people have expressed what they say is concern and compassion for homosexuals, but said that although they feel that they feel that homosexual activity itself is wrong, I would suggest to them then that they should consider voting for the bill, at least at this stage. Because [01:50:00] the second part of the bill left concerning the Human Rights Commission deals in fact, with discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation, nothing to do with homosexual activity. And if they are to transfer that concern and the compassion that they say they have, through, um to reality, then at least that part of the bill should gain their support. I'd like to comment on some other remarks that remarks that were made, uh, the member for said that the evidence [01:50:30] to support the introduction of the bill was just not there. He is absolutely wrong. All reputable social and medical research points to the fact that sexual orientation is established at a very, very early age, and you don't change that by having a law which bans homosexual activity for adults. The member for hierarchy also asked why such rapidity, as he called it in the introduction of the bill. Well, all I can say to that is there was no rapidity. [01:51:00] I just didn't feel it was terrible necessary for me to send information, Um, on my intentions to people who I knew were about to organise a campaign against the bill. There has been much public discussion on this issue. There has been much since I have been in Parliament. There's been much discussion amongst members on this issue, and I'm quite sure that nobody was under any illusion that that there would not be some at some stage a bill on this issue. The member [01:51:30] for also talked about moral laxity and in the next breath wondered aloud about the direction of government policy. And I just want to say again and for the benefit of the member for hierarchy and the benefit of the member. For Invercargill, who talked about the necessity for a private member's bill to be given a space on the order paper by the government, this is not a government measure, and it's no use the member for Paara and hierarchy Invercargill trying to make it one. It is not. [01:52:00] Of course it is correct that there must be a space given on the order paper by the government. And I'm very pleased, and I'd like to thank my colleagues for giving me the space which a private member needs to be able to introduce private business. I would like to thank them. I did my caucus colleagues the courtesy of telling them yesterday that I intended to seek leave to introduce the bill. They did me the courtesy yesterday of saying yes, they they would allow a space on the order [01:52:30] paper. It has never before been discussed in the government caucus. Mr. Speaker, the member for Invercargill, has mentioned a list, and I'd just like to make a few comments on that. I have not at any time issued any list of MP S to anyone. Any list that the member for Invercargill holds was not compiled by me and if he gives it to the Sunday as I have been told, he is going to and I certainly haven't seen it then he cannot say [01:53:00] that that list was compiled by the member for Wellington Central because it was not Mr Speaker. I want to just mention one more issue. That was commented on by the leader of the opposition, who said in relation to the AIDS issue that the state of the law would not affect the treatment of any disease. That is not the issue I know. And I have great faith in the fact that our New Zealand doctors will treat people when they need treatment. [01:53:30] But it is not treatment I am concerned about. It is prevention. A public education campaign requires cooperation from the groups at risk. At the moment, the prime group at risk are homosexuals who are at present, defined as criminal under the law. That is, I think, as I said, one of the compelling reasons for change. But the major reason Mr Mr Speaker, is that the current law on the statute book a law which [01:54:00] the member for Palmerston North, um, has showed, um is is actually almost an historical accident is no longer relevant to what people in our society now think it is wrong and it should be repealed. That is why I am moving this bill. I believe that there must be very strong protection for Children. And I have set in the bill an age of consent for 16. I feel that is a rational approach [01:54:30] because that is the age for heterosexual activity. I would ask all members to vote for the bill. And I, um, will be moving if it gets introduced, that it go to a select committee and that will be the stage when the arguments can be examined. I'd like to thank the house for giving me this time. The question is that they be given to bring in the homosexual law reform bill. Those who are in favour will say I those who [01:55:00] have the contrary opinion will say no. The eyes have it. No, have it division called for. Ring the bells. The eyes will go to the right. The nose will go to the left. Tell us for the eyes. Are Trevor Mallard and Catherine O'Regan. Tell us for the nose are Mr Jones and Mr Bray Brook. Thank you, guys. [01:55:30] The bells are ringing in Parliament buildings, summoning all members to the chamber to vote in a division. We'll return to the house when proceedings resume. Until then, an interlude of music order. The question is that need be given to bring in the homosexual law reform bill. The eyes are [01:56:00] 51. The nose are 24. Leave will be given. Unlock the doors. The Homosexual Law Reform bill First reading. Mr. Speaker, I move that the homosexual law reform bill be referred to the Statutes Revision Committee The proceedings of the committee during the hearing of evidence on the bill to be open to accredited representatives of the news media. The question is that this bill be referred to the statutes revision [01:56:30] commit committee with the usual proviso concerning the news media. Those who are in favour will say I those with the contrary opinion will say no. The eyes have it.

IRN: 920
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ATL URL: 
TITLE: Parliament: second reading debate - Homosexual Law Reform Bill (6 November 1985)
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VOICES: Clive Matthewson; Dennis Marshall; Neill Austin; Norman Jones; Paul East
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Clive Matthewson; Dennis Marshall; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Neill Austin; Norman Jones; Parliament buildings; Paul East; Wellington; age of consent; equality; homosexual; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; human rights; law; politics
DATE: 6 November 1985
YEAR: 1985
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: By an independent body. And I certainly believe the member for Napier made a very reasonable suggestion when he suggested that a royal commission should in fact look into the issue of homosexuality and bring down a report such as the Wolfenden report came before the British Parliament. And I refer to the new dimension in society today. That was not apparent in those days when the [00:00:30] WOLFENDEN report was introduced to the British Parliament, and that new dimension is is, of course, that of AIDS. Whatever course of action is taken, I would have preferred the the House to have such an authoritative document to debate so that the public could refer to it and members of Parliament could certainly debate it in those circumstances. Mr. Speaker, although I support a degree of reform and I will support an amendment [00:01:00] to the bill replacing the age of 16 with 20 if it is indeed moved in the committee stages, I cannot support this bill. The second reading of the bill as it is the bill I'm afraid at this stage is far too extreme. You? Yeah, and this, uh, Neil Aton. Mr. Speaker, I want to say at the outset, sir, [00:01:30] that I oppose this bill in all its it's all its forms and whatever amendments may come before the house. Sir, I cannot find it in my makeup to support any aspect of it. I want to tell the house, sir, that I reached this conclusion the day of the introduction of this bill. I did not serve. [00:02:00] Although I appreciated the letters of support from within my own electorate and from many areas of New Zealand when the public you just learned by way of the news media that I oppose the introduction of this homosexual law reform bill. In other words, Mr Speaker, it has not taken public comment [00:02:30] private letters to me or any other form of conversation spoken, written or whatever to persuade me that there is any. The point in my mind or any good will come in my mind if this bill is passed in whatever form it might take, sir, I am my [00:03:00] own best friend and I am also my worst enemy. Sir, I have to look at my image in the mirror every morning when I shave. Sometimes, sir, that image I see of myself is a bit clouded. but never, sir. Have I been afraid to look at myself and say, Well, I believe you haven't done [00:03:30] so badly the day before in the stand that you take on whatever issue and in particularly sir, on this moral issue, I can, quite truthfully can honestly say that that mirror I look into each morning is as clear as I would hope it to be. It is, to my regret, Mr Speaker, that I cannot quote the scriptures [00:04:00] at length. All right, cannot quote chapter and verse to support the reasons why I oppose this legislation. There has been much talk in this chamber well intentioned, sincere, well meaning from both sides of the argument. I too, sir, am sincere [00:04:30] and well meaning when I say, as I said, it's the introduction of the opening of my few words that I will not support this legislation, uh, in any form. It is comforting to me to know, having made that decision, sir, without the pressures, without the advice, if I can put it that way of any person [00:05:00] in my electorate. Although I acknowledge subsequently to me making to my making that decision that I have had dozens of letters, some people throughout the country, the ones that I value particularly are those from my own electorate supporting my stand in opposition to this legislation. [00:05:30] Public meetings I have attended not only and spoken at not only in my own electorate but in other areas of New Zealand on topics that don't have any relationship at all to this legislation. Inevitably, sir, the question has cropped up as to what the public's [00:06:00] attitude is, what the nation's attitude is to, in my view, lowering the moral standards of our nation. Sir, I am not prepared to be party two, this imaginary code line of conduct moral conduct beneath which I believe as a nation we dare not go on. [00:06:30] None of us, sir, have exactly the same argument. None of us have exactly the same discussions, indeed, opinions as to what that imaginary line of conduct below which we as a nation, we as an individual they are not. Do you not fall under or go under, [00:07:00] sir, I have, as I say, had public meetings on many topics in my electorate, and I refer now to my electorate. I am proud to say, sir, that not once did I get threats or any adverse comment as to my particular judgement on this issue from any person [00:07:30] attending those public meetings, whatever that public meeting was. But I am rather distressed to report to this house, sir, that I have received one or two letters, only one or two letters from people who have suggested that if I let my support to this legislation, then possibly my political future in this chamber could be in jeopardy. [00:08:00] Sir, I say to those one or two people, or half a dozen at the most who wrote to me in that vein, I value my integrity for what it is worth, beyond the question of whether I support this issue, that issue or any other issue, whether I should remain a member of this chamber for me, sir, too, to subjugate [00:08:30] my own moral standards. And those are my own sir, imposed on me by no one for me to subjugate those standards, those ideals of mind to the demands and the suggestions of those who suggest I would be out of public office unless I supported their particular point of view. Mr Neil said to elect [00:09:00] and I say to this house, sir. I would try soon to be out of public office than to do that, which I know very well, sir. I could no longer look myself in the mirror each morning. As I mentioned a few moments ago to me, sir. And individuals stand, and we're discussing this issue at the present time. An individual [00:09:30] stand on a moral issue is their decision and theirs alone. Some members, sir, have assisted themselves or assisted in formulating that opinion by having or taking opinion polls by testing the water. I make no criticism of them for taking that attitude or that line. None whatsoever. [00:10:00] But I make it quite clear, sir, that I did not have to or did not think it necessary for me to do just that. And as I say, sir, I have been supported in that stand, which I took. And I reiterate, sir, that that stand of mine was taken before the pressure built up by way of petitions to this house [00:10:30] or by the progression of this bill through this chamber. My decision was made without that advice in inverted commas, which was tendered to me. I am pleased to say, sir, that I have had many letters of support from within my own electorate, and I want to refer [00:11:00] particularly to those many letters of support in the attitude in the opinion, in the decision that I have made, there's one particular letter of support I have here, which I value as much as letters of support I have had from individuals. And this one that I have here happens to come from my own hometown of Kaiko, the Kaiko [00:11:30] Union Parish Church. They, sir, conducted a survey amongst their members, and I quote from the letter of the session clerk to me, the response to our circular requesting opinions we consider was significant. And also the resulting correspondence is very interesting and indicates that many people and congregations have given a lot have given a lot of consideration to this subject. [00:12:00] Can I say to this house, sir, that I am not a particularly good churchgoer? I say that, sir, with a degree of sorrow. If I wished, I could make all sorts of excuses as to why I don't attend a church regularly. I don't propose to do that, sir, but I do say that I am not what might be called a good church goer. [00:12:30] I claim, sir, that, in my estimation, and as I say, I have to live with myself. In my estimation, I do not have to 10 church and prayers to know, in my estimation, that I am doing or or conducting myself as I would wish as my my wife [00:13:00] and family. Except that that is my moral standards of conduct. Sir, I have also received letters from almost every locality within my electorate supporting me in that decision that I made that decision I made literally in isolation, as I said, from [00:13:30] the pressures from the advice of good and well meaning people and served. Having made that decision, I was encouraged by the number of people who signed a petition circulating through my electorate opposing this homosexual law reform bill 8742. [00:14:00] Not one of those people who signed that petition, Mr Speaker, have written to me Sorry. One person only who signed that petition wrote to me and and told me that they had not supported their signature on that petition and asked that I have it removed from the record of this petition. [00:14:30] I wrote back to that person, sir, and advised them that I was more than happy to advise the organisers of this petition to have that name removed. So that means, sir, that there were 8741 not 42 8741 Citizens of my electorate signed that petition in opposition to [00:15:00] this homosexual law reform bill. Sir, I am also particularly pleased. Perhaps Humble would be a better word to use to receive letters from the Maori people of from within my electorate, I might add, sir Maori people who are not on my electoral roll [00:15:30] Maori people who are on the roll for Northern Maori supporting me in that decision that I made, as I say before any pressures built up. And I want to quote I would like to quote sir from just one of those many letters that I received from my good friends, the Maori people of and it says addressed to me. So [00:16:00] many of our Maori folk and pakeha folk feel about this homosexual law reform bill which we believe if passed, could spell disaster to this small country of ours. New Zealand most Maori folk feel that this bill if passed, and most Maori, if passed, would negate much of the teachings many of the teachings that [00:16:30] we have learned in this last 150 years from the Christian faith. It also goes on to say that if our Maori ancestors who signed the Treaty of Waitangi had realised that there would be legislation before this house lowering the moral standards [00:17:00] and the moral teachings that they were taught by the Christian faith, many, if not most of those Maoris would not have signed the Treaty of Waitangi. That is how so many of my Maori people my Maori friends regard, regard the prospects of the lowering of our moral standards. [00:17:30] If this bill is passed, sir, in conclusion, I say and I repeat to any who I wish to take note of what I say. I would far rather sir be out of public life that, in my view, my moral standards, whatever others may think of them, if I have to lower my moral standards [00:18:00] to support the lowering of the morality of this country. If this bill were passed, sir, I oppose the introduction of the bill. I propose opposing this legislation every step of the way. As we OK? Yes. And Mr Paul? Mr. Speaker, uh, I've listened with interest to the speeches that have been [00:18:30] made in the second reading of this legislation, and I have to say that it is, uh, on these vexed conscience issues that this parliament hears some of the best speeches from the members. And, uh, I don't doubt for one moment the sincerity, uh, with which the speeches on both sides of this argument have been delivered to this chamber. Mr. Speaker, I voted, and I'm not going to speak for any great length. But I feel that members should [00:19:00] explain to the chamber and to their constituents why they have reached certain conclusions with respect to this legislation. I voted for the introduction of this bill because I believed, and I still believe that the decriminalisation of homosexual acts is a subject which this Parliament should properly consider should properly study, and that we should all inquire [00:19:30] at this time whether these acts should be legalised. I sat on the Committee the Justice and Law Reform Committee, formerly the Statutes Revision Committee, month after month, listening to the submissions that were made on this bill. In fact, I was, uh, during the whole term that this legislation was referred to the committee, the senior opposition member present. And having heard all the evidence, [00:20:00] I believe there are grounds for the decriminalisation of homosexual acts. Well, there we were. We're getting the immediate reaction one would expect from the more vociferous proponents of the legislation. And I would like to clearly set out my views irrespective of their behaviour, which now they have raised. It is a matter that I feel [00:20:30] I must deal with now, Mr Speaker, I will, at the appropriate time seriously consider supporting the amendment that my colleague, the member for Pendleton, proposes that homosexual acts between persons of 20 years of age and be decriminalised. It's my own personal view that homosexual acts should not be punished [00:21:00] by the law. But I must say that the legislation that the Select Committee has studied and that was brought before the house goes far further than that, and the areas in which I disagree strongly with the legislation turn on two points. First, the age. In my view, the age limit of 16 years is far too young boys of 16 [00:21:30] years are still struggling with maturity. They, in my view, are not of an age where they can properly consider whether they should indulge in homosexual behaviour. And I disagree strongly with the provisions in the bill that would, uh en which that would enable youths of 16 years of age to engage in homosexual [00:22:00] practises. Mr. Speaker, I also strongly disagree with the human rights provisions contained in this legislation. In my view, those provisions imply total acceptance of homosexuality by the public. And I, for one, am unconvinced that New Zealanders totally accept homosexuality. And I don't think this parliament should, by legislation, force that acceptance [00:22:30] on a society that is not ready for it and does not want it. Society is simply the New Zealand Society is simply not in the position at this stage to accept such a dramatic change to our law. We are not just seeking decriminalisation in this legislation, but we are seeking acceptance by society and in that respect this legislation goes too far and I may say it goes [00:23:00] far too far when one looks at other human rights legislation and realises that with respect to age, race and religion and sex. There are discriminations. The police, the armed forces, the prison service and churches are not required to comply with human rights legislation in certain areas. But there are no exceptions in this legislation. So what that means [00:23:30] is that our police force, our armed services and our prison service will be required by law to accept unemployment active, visible, practising homosexuals. It also means that organisations such as the Boy Scouts will be required to accept and to full time employment active, visible practising homosexuals. It also means [00:24:00] that church schools, churches that may have very strong fundamental beliefs about homosexuality will be required by this legislation to accept and to employment act of visible and practising homosexuals when that would obviously cause considerable problems. For those organisations, there are not the normal human rights exceptions that are that we are aware of as they relate [00:24:30] to race, religion, creed and sex. Now, Mr Speaker, this debate has seen extreme points of view on both sides of the argument and that has not helped this parliament reach a conclusion on the legislation. On the one hand, we have had extremist statements made in the name of religion, and on the other we have had the activities of the homosexual community [00:25:00] we have witnessed on television members of the Salvation Army being abused and molested on their way to churches. And I simply say that with respect to both sides who have acted in that manner, they have done their cause and this parliament a grave disservice. And they should know that their actions have not convinced any member of Parliament to support their cause, but in many cases have driven reasonable, sensible [00:25:30] members of Parliament to think again about the legislation. Mr. Speaker, for those reasons when we have one, when we have a whole bill and a member finds himself an agreement with perhaps 25% of it and 75% of it is something that the member can't support and those views in that matter And in that way, Mr Speaker, I believe that the member should vote against the second reading of the bill, and for that reason, I will. [00:26:00] And I am particularly reinforced, in my view, by the manner in which the Select committee has handled this legislation, and I take the strongest exception to the manner in which the government members of the Justice and Law Reform Committee dealt with this legislation and I refer particularly to the Select Committee hearing on Wednesday, the second of October, which must be recorded as a black day [00:26:30] in the history of this parliament with respect to a select committee hearing submissions from concerned members of the public. Because it was on that day that the two opposition members of the Justice and Law Reform Committee came to Parliament came to that select committee hearing prepared to hear evidence from the considerable number of people who still wished to make their point of view known to this parliament [00:27:00] on this very important legislation. But I have to report Mr Speaker that it was obvious to the two opposition members present the member for and myself that the government members had already met and had already decided as to how this legislation would be disposed of and member for Rotorua, that the committee deliberate immediately on the legislation despite the fact that there were some 70 or 80 [00:27:30] groups, organisations and individuals who had taken the time to present submissions to this parliament and who still wished to make their point of view known to that select committee, Mr Speaker, that was an affront to our democracy. And we denied the government by exercising the government members by exercising their majority and overruling the two opposition members. We denied those [00:28:00] citizens, groups and organisations their democratic rights to come to this parliament and present their views to a select committee. And not only did we do that, but the government members, again by weight of number, again over the vigorous protests of my colleague, the member for wa and myself moved that a large number of parliamentary petitions on the issue of homosexual [00:28:30] law reform. In fact, I have the list in front of me now. Some 20 petitions at least be reported back without even hearing any evidence whatsoever. Mr. Speaker, I'm told that there were 34 petitions that were dealt with in that cavalier fashion, and that is one of the most ancient rights of the citizen in New Zealand to petition this [00:29:00] parliament and to present to this parliament their views. I don't mind what side of the argument those petitioners should be on. The simple fact is that it is their right to sow petition this parliament and they have been denied that right, Mr Speaker, the submissions were dealt with in a disgraceful way, and as a parliamentarian, I was ashamed. [00:29:30] It's a matter of convenience to the committee. They could not produce one valid reason as to why the committee should stop hearing evidence and report back. The only reason they could produce was a matter of convenience to the committee that had been sitting for five months. That was long enough. We may as well pack up the hearings and report back, irrespective of the poor people who had taken the trouble to prepare submissions and still wished [00:30:00] to be heard simply a matter of convenience to committee members. And then, to make the matter even worse, this move to deliberate after only hearing part of the evidence. And I must say that the committee did not discharge its duty to this Parliament because when a bill is sent to a select committee, it is sent to a select committee to hear all the evidence, not just the evidence that a gang who who [00:30:30] who jacked the committee up and wished to steamroll their views over other men members you are supposed to you are supposed to consider all the evidence and the fact of the matter is that we were given the job by this parliament and we did not fulfil it because we didn't consider all the evidence. And even worse, the committee then moved straight into deliberation without even going through a period of consideration. [00:31:00] And what is wrong with that, Mr Speaker, is not only did we deny many worthwhile organisations and groups and I think the National Council of Women was one whose views I particularly would have liked to have heard and who were denied the opportunity of being heard on this matter, not only did we do that, we also denied our departmental advisor from the Justice Department who had been sitting through committee hearings for five months. We denied them the opportunity of [00:31:30] discussing these matters with the Select Committee. There were two Justice Department reports prepared. We received one on the first half of the bill at the time that we moved straight into deliberation and had no opportunity to consider that the second Justice Department report on the bill came to members of the committee after the committee had already been forced to deliberate and report back to this parliament. And I say, What use is that having government officials sit [00:32:00] there for five months and be denied the opportunity of discussing these matters with committee members, And not only that, we then had an ad, our advisory officer to the committee prepare a massive report which again the committee members had no opportunity of considering before we deliberated. And I, for one, would also have liked to have had the opportunity of seeking the advice of the Human Rights Commission and asking the commission [00:32:30] to come before the committee to explore with the commission their views with respect to the second part of the act dealing with human rights. But no, we were denied that opportunity as a committee and to make the situation even worse. Halfway through this Chara, the government members realised the damage they were doing their cause. So do you know what they did in the interests of open government? [00:33:00] They ordered the press from the room and took a vote to exclude the news media from the consideration of the homosexual law reform bill before the Justice and Law Reform Committee. The consideration was effectively held behind a shroud of secrecy because the government members insisted over the wishes of myself and the member for wa A that [00:33:30] the press not be able to remain. And as a result, it is only now that we have the opportunity of advising this parliament of the disgraceful manner in which the Justice and Law Reform Committee was forced to deal with this matter by weight of numbers of government members who had obviously come to that committee with some predetermined course of action on Wednesday, the second of October [00:34:00] for this parliament, for the bill to proceed further in those circumstances. And I would hope that we will vote on this measure by saying to the sponsors of the bill who have a considerable measure of public support, that they should go away, start again and do the job properly in the proper traditional democratic method, not Endeavour to force the measure through the House in the way that they are doing. Having said that, Mr Speaker, I think [00:34:30] I have outlined to this house and to my constituents why I am taking the stand that I am on the second reading of this legislation. They go Mr Matthewson, Mr speaker during the election campaign. Before the last election, I was asked on several occasions what my reaction would be to a homosexual law reform bill. And my reaction to that question was that [00:35:00] I would vote for reform but that I did not consider it a pressing issue beside, uh, such matters as the economy and justice and so on. But, uh, Mr Speaker, since that time there has been some water gone under the bridge. A bill has been introduced. Uh, we have all received a lot of mail, and I have done quite a lot of study on this issue. I end up with no question [00:35:30] on how I wish to vote. But the question is, why would I speak to the matter and not just vote to the matter? Why, Mr Speaker, the reason that I am speaking is because I now see the issues as more important than I did at the time of the election. I see the issues as being those of tolerance versus a morally judgmental view. I see the issue as one of the role of the law [00:36:00] of this land. I see the issue of rationality versus fear, and indeed I see the issue of sexual equality, so I will argue with as much rationality as I can manage. But I have acquired stronger feelings on this issue since the time of the election. Mr. Speaker, those feelings came to a head when the petition was presented the petition against this bill. I watched the presentation of that petition, and I must say that I was offended [00:36:30] by others taking over God, family and country and the national anthem to their cause. Because I feel some affinity for those issues as well as they do. And I do not believe that those those, uh, those items God, family, the country and the national anthem belong to one side of this issue. The certainty in the face of overwhelming evidence that those people's view was not only right but had that moral force all on its own and should be enforced [00:37:00] on others. I frankly found offensive. I accept and respect the fact that many people in my electorate and all the other electorates, of course, are opposed to this bill and that they have that they are genuine in their feelings and that they have very real fears about this bill, but there are not more than 9150 in my electorate. There are not more than 9150 in my electorate because of those issues that have already [00:37:30] been canvassed about the method of counting of that petition. However, sir, that is not the real reason that is not the real matter at issue. Mr. Speaker, I was surprised by the manner of presentation of this petition on the on the steps of Parliament. And one of the issues was that the boxes that were brought up the steps they weren't full. Now, why Why would the presenters of the petition bring a whole lot of empty boxes up the steps unless [00:38:00] they were trying to impress people about how many signatures there were? That is a deceptive thing to do. It is unnecessary if the petition has none of the boxes were even half full, and listeners might be interested to know that fact. And many of them have only an inch or two of pages in the bottom, and any member can go and have a look at them, and any member of the press can go and have a look at them and verify that fact. Now, what is the reason [00:38:30] to be deceptive in that way? If the petition has the force of reason behind it, then it does not need to be. It not does not need to be made deceptive in that way, Mr Speaker. Uh, one of the one of the issues that has arisen is that with regard to that petition, of course, is that that the presenters of that petition have threatened those who vote for this bill with electoral defeat. And I resent the idea that I am here just [00:39:00] because I want to stay here. I am here and I must take notice of my constituents. But in the end, I must vote for what I think is right. And I resent the threat that is implied by pushing numbers at me that I will vote against what I believe for electoral advantage because I won't. Sometimes, in fact, I believe that a law should not be should not be there simply because there is [00:39:30] no consensus on that law. I think it is bad law, if only about let's say, 50% of the people agree that such a law is needed because if only 50% of the people agree that a law is needed, then it clearly does not have the respect of the majority of the people of New Zealand, which I believe laws need to have. We all agree that we should have a law against murder. But we certainly do not all agree that we should have a law against homosexual activity. And I believe that the standard [00:40:00] that is required for us to have a law, especially on moral matters such as this, requires to be a great deal more than 50% and certainly that is not the case. I believe that somewhat more than 50% of the people of this country believe that the law should not be there. The law against homosexual activity, that's my belief. But I believe that if the law should be there, then it should be certainly a great deal more than that, nor Mr Speaker, do I believe that we should have a law just because we have it already? We should start [00:40:30] from scratch and decide whether we need a law which is on the books and really, that's what this is about it's whether we should keep a law that is there or whether we don't need it anymore, or, in fact, whether we should do away with it. Which is the same thing, Mr Speaker. Uh, really, though my principal concern about the role of the criminal law is simply that it is not the role of the law to tell adults what they should do in private with consent when no one else is involved, let alone hurt or no one else apart from those consenting adults. [00:41:00] And in that respect, I would like to quote from the Department of Justice's report, which the previous speaker mentioned could not be considered by the committee. Well, of course, it could be considered by the committee members the West, and the fact that they could not present it orally does not really alter the fact that the report is there. And here it is. And I would like to quote from the report about the role of criminal law. This is the report of the Justice Department, and I think it is quite an important quote [00:41:30] that I make Mr Speaker, This is what it says. By and large, the criminal law of countries such as New Zealand does not intervene in the private lives of citizens to enforce any particular moral viewpoint, a democratic and pluralistic society. It is generally accepted that the law ought to recognise individual freedom of choice in matters of private morality, except where it is necessary to prohibit behaviour which occasions identifiable harm to others. Broadly speaking, New Zealand's criminal code is concerned with restraining [00:42:00] conduct which causes harm to others, protecting public decency and maintaining public order. There are very few offences contained in the Crimes Act, of which it could be said that the principle purpose of the prohibition is to enforce a moral standard. This approach is not really surprising. There are few moral issues on which society at large would be capable of reaching substantial agreement to the argument that the criminal law is an appropriate instrument for enforcing one particular code of behaviour. The question then becomes which [00:42:30] or whose morality should prevail. It would be quite inappropriate to expect the state to make such a choice. If public debate on the bill illustrates nothing else, it illustrates that there is no consensus in the community about the morality of homosexual conduct and the prescription of such conduct by criminal means. In these circumstances, it would be normal for the criminal law to stand aside. To that extent, The continued prohibition of consensual homosexual acts is an exception to traditional concepts [00:43:00] about the proper scope of the criminal law. Mr. Speaker, that is a clear statement of the criminal law. And, uh, and I believe that an understanding of that is necessary for MP S, who must examine the arguments for and against this law. Mr. Speaker, we do not have the luxury that human of having a view which can be held against the evidence. [00:43:30] We must examine the arguments for and against this bill and examine them in the light of the evidence. And I would like to quickly run through the arguments which have been advanced against this bill. The first one is that it's against Christian values. Well, Mr Speaker, we've already canvassed whether one morality should be enshrined in the law or not, But also there is the question of what is the Christian view. And I, like other members, I'm sure have had many letters and communications from Christian people who are in favour [00:44:00] of repeal of the law as it stands. And when I look at both sides of the issue, I see logic from a Christian viewpoint because of the tolerance expressed on the side of repeal, Mr Speaker. One of the other arguments against this bill is that homosexual homosexuality is quote curable. Even if it was, that shouldn't matter. But the evidence says that it is not so [00:44:30] that homosexuality is fixed as a sexual orientation in people before they reach the age of 16 well before they reach the age of 16 or purity. That is the overwhelming weight of evidence, and that is what we should listen to and to say otherwise ignores that evidence, Mr Speaker. The third one is the third argument against the bill is that homosexuality will cause break up of the family, and I find that argument hard to follow because the first, the first element of that argument [00:45:00] is that a change in the law will create more homosexuality and more homosexual activity, and that is not the evidence from countries overseas which have changed the law. But the second is that I cannot see the mechanism for the break up of the family in passing this bill, Mr. Speaker, homosexuals are born into families, and decriminalisation of homosexuality will surely not cause them to lose their mothers or fathers and brothers and sisters. I cannot see that that that that is the case. And, Mr Speaker, all right. If they're not going to lose their mothers and fathers [00:45:30] and brothers and sisters size of this bill, then perhaps it is because homosexuals genuinely, genuinely don't have Children. But surely that could not be a reason to rate them as criminals, because celibacy is accepted as a valid lifestyle. If it's chosen and celibates don't have Children, and we don't therefore decide to make it criminal, Mr Speaker, So that argument cannot be the one. Perhaps the idea is that husbands will all suddenly rush off and become home homosexuals. And Mr Speaker, that simply does not accord with with [00:46:00] the with the sexual orientation of the heterosexual who who will suddenly will not suddenly decide to be a homosexual when the bill is passed. So, Mr Speaker, the rationality of that argument is not there. And we must We must try and examine the thing rationally, and I do not see any argument which says that the passing of this bill will break up families. It's simply not simply not logical, Mr Speaker. The fourth reason against violence against the bill is that homosexuals in indulge in child abuse and homosexual rape and so on. [00:46:30] And I have had a letter, uh, telling me that that there will be hordes of homosexual gangs sodomising innocent citizens if this bill is passed. Well, Mr Speaker, simply the answer to that is that countries which have already had decriminalisation of homosexual behaviour have simply not seen the sort of behaviour described in that letter. And I would like to read for the evidence of the house just some of the countries which have decriminalised homosexual behaviour because there's been the idea of advance that we [00:47:00] should have an inquiry. Well, we're not exactly trying something new and radical, Mr. Speaker. The United Kingdom has been mentioned and and we know that it was decriminalised there many years ago. Mr. Speaker, In Western Europe, let's run through a few of the countries In Sweden, the age of consent is 15, the same as for heterosexuals in Norway. 16, the same as for heterosexuals in France, the age of consent is the same for heterosexuals. In Denmark, the age of consent is 15, the same as for heterosexuals. In Austria, the age of consent [00:47:30] is 19. In the Federal Republic of Germany, the age of consent is 18. In Italy, the age of consent is the same as for heterosexuals. In Italy, they've never had a criminal law against homosexuality. In Switzerland, the commission has been set up, which recommends the liberalisation of the law. In the Netherlands, the age of consent is 16, the same as for heterosexuals. In Belgium, the age of consent is for homosexuals is for 18 and heterosexual 60. In Spain, the age of consent is the same as heterosexuals. If this is not new and you know this, then why does the member for re seem [00:48:00] to indicate that we're doing something strange and unusual by having such a bill? Because I am reading out and I intend to continue to read them out, to emphasise the fact that we are not doing something new, strange and radical compared with other countries in the world. Mr. Speaker, the Council of Europe in 1981 a committee on social and health questions, adopted a draught recommendation on the elimination of discrimination against homosexuals and in particular recommended that criminal liability for homosexual behaviour between adults should be abolished. [00:48:30] And Mr Speaker in the United States, over half the states have decriminalised private homosexual conduct. Australia New South Wales has done so and, uh, the Australian Capital Territory South Australia has done so since 1976. And interestingly, Mr Speaker, South Australia uh, at least a month or two ago had not had a single case of AIDS reported. And they have had decriminalisation of homosexual activity since 1976 [00:49:00] and haven't had a case of AIDS reported, whereas Florida whereas Florida, which in which it remains criminal, is the third highest level of AIDS in the world. And those and those facts are contained in the Department of Justice report. So they are. So they are. They are fairly, fairly, well, fairly well documented facts. Mr. Speaker, we are not doing something. We are not doing something. Uh, something very strange, Mr. Speaker, The fifth argument advanced against [00:49:30] the bill is the question of AIDS. I don't expect that any member in this house would argue against the need to contain AIDS, of course. But one should look at the evidence about whether AIDS will increase with decriminalisation or indeed decrease with decriminalisation. And I've already noted the cases of Florida and South Australia, and the director general of health in New Zealand says there is no reasonable correlation between the incidence of AIDS and the law, and I take that [00:50:00] to be an authoritative opinion. I am not sure Clive Matthew Dunedin of AIDS less But my view is that it will certainly not make the situation worse. Because if the threat of AIDS itself will not cause people to refrain from Adal intercourse, then the existence of an act which is hardly enforced will surely not. And that's a logical argument, which I invite someone to try and answer. Mr Speaker, the question of age, the question of age. The only the only [00:50:30] question really that we have to decide, I believe, is what should the age be accepting that accepting that consenting adult behaviour should be decriminalised, it is it is logical to have the same age as for heterosexuality. Otherwise, there is a discrimination both between homosexual and heterosexual behaviour, and between male and female and 16 is the age I will go for Mr Speaker, Part two. I understand the reasoning behind those who support [00:51:00] the first part, but not the second. I understand their idea that personal freedom is the motivator, the freedom to hire who one likes, et cetera. But but personal freedom must sometimes be curtailed. For example, we do not have the freedom to drive on the right hand side of the road for very obvious reasons, and personal freedom must sometimes be curtailed. And in this case, I must say that I regard discrimination against homosexuality as not different from discrimination on the grounds [00:51:30] of race or sex. People who apply for a job have a right to be treated on the characteristics relevant to the job and not on a prejudice against what they do privately. And I will be voting for the second part of the bill. Mr. Speaker, Morality has been mentioned tonight and other nights quite a lot, and I regard moral moral values such as honesty, justice and caring for others, including intellectual honesty as moral values. And they indicate to me that the moral position to [00:52:00] take on this bill is to support it, and I do not regard my view as being less moral than the bill's opponents. They are entitled to their view that they are more moral than me. But I do not accept that, Mr Speaker. This law will pass, I think, and I hope it will. It will lift the weight from maybe 10% of our male population. But perhaps even more importantly, it will signal maturity and tolerance in our society. I feel pleased to be able to endorse [00:52:30] this bill, and I encourage my colleagues to do so. It's Mr Norman Jones. Mr Speaker, We've heard this story about the homosexuality and AIDS being prevalent in Florida, where it's non decriminalised, where it's still illegal in Florida, in Florida. The reason being, of course, that Fidel Castro got rid of 207,000 of his criminals [00:53:00] and his prisoners, including including 70 70 72,000 homosexuals he let out of out of Cuba into Florida. And that's why they're full of aid. That's why they're full of age. Now we know Mr Speaker, I want to give notice of an amendment at the second reading stage under standing [00:53:30] order 213. I intend to move that The question be amended by admitting the word now and adding at the end of the question, the words this day, 12 months. Would you like to say that that's the amendment? I intend to move, which opens up the second reading for anyone that wants to have a second go. And that will give the member all these members here who think this is a good idea to carry on. I'm going to give the reasons why. I think [00:54:00] this bill should lie on the table for another 12 months before we do anything further before it before we do anything further with it. And I can assure you that we'll have plenty of members to get up and keep going now. The homosexual community of this country received one hell of a shock in March when they brought this bill in. They thought this bill was going to come into this Parliament and be passed as indeed it did in the first reading by 51 votes to 24 with 20 absent. And [00:54:30] they had planned that if they brought it in with the connivance of the Labour Party caucuses. No question about that. No question about that. There wasn't one voice raised against bringing this homosexual bill in by the member for Wellington Central. In the later talk, no one voice raised against it brought it in for a diversion eight months ago. Thought it would get through this house. Thought it would get through this house in a few short weeks. Well, here we are, eight months [00:55:00] later, eight months later. And we're still not through the second reading. And of those people that are that are missing out on something outside this house for coming here the last three Wednesdays, the last three Wednesdays. Better all get back to work because they're missing out on the because they're not gonna make any here, is he All right. They didn't anticipate the massive opposition that would be generated to this bill. I thought [00:55:30] it passed through its introduction stages. As indeed it did. 51 to 24. That was early march. Well, here we are way back in now, in November. They aren't very overjoyed about that today. They aren't very overjoyed about that today, and they'll be even less overjoyed because I can assure them by the time this bill gets through all of its stages and I can take a bet now and I'll take a bet of a dozen of whiskey with any member of this house that this bill will not pass. That this bill will not pass [00:56:00] through. This house in its present form will not pass through this house in its present form. I am confident of that. I I I've been doing my accounting. I haven't stayed here throughout the three nights, looking at the speakers and having to say, I've been doing my homework. There's about 36 probably 36 members in this house who will vote against this bill. At every stage. There's probably 34 or 35 who will vote for it at every stage, and the homosexual task force are under [00:56:30] instructions that it's got to be 16 years of age. There's got to be 16 years of age or nothing. There's already been amendments telegraphed for 2018. Well, I can assure you that we'll be in the lobbies. My life will be in the lobbies, with the homosexual group voting against 20 years of age, voting against 18 years of age and then the members of this house can have some real agonising to do, because finally, what you're going to be voting for is 16 years [00:57:00] of age or nothing. And I'm picking that this house will vote nothing. So it's not over yet. It's not over yet. The bill will probably go through its second reading stages after we've all had another go at it after we've all had another go at it in the amendment by seven or eight votes by seven or eight votes. I've already got a dozen of whiskey with the member for Hamilton West. He's a gone. He's gone. Yeah, he wouldn't be Mr Speaker. There's been an international organised campaign [00:57:30] amongst the homosexuals amongst the homosexuals. Well, I can assure you that if you think 835,000 New Zealanders was organised, I can tell the member for S, the buddy MP for Invercargill, and every time he comes down and opens, he's trapping Invercargill. He puts another 500 votes in my pocket, so keep on coming. Keep on coming, Keep on coming. He's the best. He's the best buddy [00:58:00] you can have. He's the best buddy you can have and long may remain the buddy MP. I can assure you that if you think that 835 was organised and you're criticising the petition of having X number of school kids and being people being pressurised, I can assure you that the day this bill passes through this house in any shape or form at all, the repeal referendum petition will start the very next day based on computerised [00:58:30] electoral roles based on computerised electoral roles and every elector, every voter will be given the opportunity of signing the repeal bill, which I will personally or somebody else move in 12 months' time. So it's not going to go away. It won't go away, I promise you that. And if you think we can't do it, don't don't adopt on anything at all. I can see both sides, and I've always seen both sides of an argument seen both sides [00:59:00] of an argument. But and as far as I'm concerned on this issue, it's either right. It's wrong. I am not going to be me. And so I agree to disagree with people on this. It is wrong and it's wrong and I am say, as far as I'm concerned, I do not distinguish between the sinner. I'm no table thumping, Bible banging Christian, I might tell you that I'm representing at least three quarters of those 835 people like myself. Don't [00:59:30] even go to church. Don't even go to church, Mr Norman Jones. I'll go to my Lord on Judgement Day, and I'll say to him, Lord, I drink whiskey. I drink whiskey. I swear. I used to chase women I used to chase. That's right. Well, there's one thing for sure. I never chase blokes, that's for sure. [01:00:00] I don't go to church. I go down to the savings and watch my horses work out. I'm going to have a puppet. I'm going to go down there and I'm going to have the company of the Anglican, all the Anglican pastors and the Presbyterian pastors and the Methodist pastors who go to their congregations and say that sodomy you can condone it. It's not a sin. Now they're getting paid to preach the Gospel. Now they're going to have more [01:00:30] trouble with the Lord. They're gonna have more trouble with the Lord in their judgement day than I'm gonna have I'd like to be a fly on the wall when they and they're making their excuse. I want to get back. I want to get back to the seriousness of this. It's no laughing matter when the whole of our heterosexual population not only the five or 4% homosexual population and [01:01:00] are at risk from a homosexually induced venereal disease, a fatal disease of AIDS and deliberately so the non homo. There's an internationally organised campaign amongst the homosexuals in every country in the world, and the member for energy is more in danger of senility than anything else legalised [01:01:30] in every country to pressurise right throughout the right. Throughout the homosexual international community, there's been a campaign in every country to pressurise the non homosexual population to legalise sodomy to prevent the spread of the homosexual disease AIDS. That's what they've been doing now. It's quite obvious it became obvious to homosexuals in the UK [01:02:00] and in America and Europe and all over the world, years five years ago that the homosexuals were killing themselves by the thousands with AIDS, and it was quite obvious to them that no government, no major multinational corporation, was going to spend millions of dollars on research just on a homosexual disease, when homosexuals only make up a small percentage of the population. They weren't going to get the sort of money [01:02:30] spent on AIDS research to stop this fatal disease that other people were getting to spend on multiple sclerosis, cancer and arthritis, and all the rest and all the rest of it. So what do we do? So the homosexual, the international homosexual community, the International Homosexual Committee's only hope was for the world's blood banks to become sufficiently contaminated with AIDS? That's right, and for enough and for enough [01:03:00] and for enough innocent people, homosexual women and Children hoops wives of bisexual homosexual at risk for enough of them for enough of the heterosexual community to be pump contaminated with the AIDS virus to to be poisoned to death by this homosexual Belial disease. That's what it is to have world governments to have World governments and corporations and medical foundation and local governments [01:03:30] start start spending millions of dollars on research into the homosexual disease. That's how it came about. Now that's how it come out by deliberately of those last few were to cut off. But it was just the time when the speaker closed him off entirely and the house rose.

IRN: 919
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TITLE: Parliament: Petition report back debate - Homosexual Law Reform Bill (5 November 1985)
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VOICES: Ann Hercus; Fran Wilde; Geoff Braybrooke; Graeme Lee; John Banks; Merv Wellington; Michael Cullen; Norman Jones; Philip Woollaston; Trevor Mallard; Winston Peters
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; Ann Hercus; Aotearoa New Zealand; Fran Wilde; Geoff Braybrooke; Graeme Lee; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); John Banks; Keith Hay; Merv Wellington; Michael Cullen; Norman Jones; Parliament buildings; Peter Tait; Philip Woollaston; Trevor Mallard; Wellington; Winston Peters; equality; homosexual; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; human rights; law; politics
DATE: 5 November 1985
YEAR: 1985
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from parts of the debate on the report back of the petition against the Homosexual Law Reform Bill, 5 November 1985.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Speaker I'm directed to report that the Justice and Law Reform Committee has carefully considered three petitions praying that Parliament vote that the homosexual law reform bill does not proceed. And 31 petitions praying that the House reject the homosexual law reform bill. The committee had no recommendation to make Mr Speaker. I move that this report lie upon the table, Mr. Speak, Mr Speaker. The collection [00:00:30] of signatures for and the presentation of this petition has been controversial. The member for Man two has said that the rally outside resembled a rally at Nuremberg, and there's probably not much need for the debate on that subject. This house had 91 boxes in it. They were covered in slogans. What we weren't told was that more that none was more than 50% full and [00:01:00] many were under 25% full. The overstatement involved in the presentation of the boxes and the overstatement of numbers to which I will refer later, do no credit to the petitioner. They debase to the level of unbelievable propaganda the strongly held views of many thousands of people. The committee hearing [00:01:30] itself was relatively exciting. It went from the morning through until after 7 p. m. The petitioners had seven witnesses, including a lab technician presenting the medical argument. All witnesses were subjected to extensive questioning except the witness who ordered the petition collation who shot through before all members could question him. Apart from that, all questions [00:02:00] were answered and including those supplied to the member for Hauraki by his question writer Barry Reid, the public relations officer for Mr Hay, the member for Invercargill. A point of order. Mr. Peters. Mr. Chairman, it will have occurred to you, as has occurred to the rest of the house. That the report back thus far is purely outrageous. The member who is required to report [00:02:30] back accurately what went on before the Select Committee is reporting back now, sir, on pure PSA supposition and guesswork on his part Now. So I ask that you bring him back to the purpose of this debate, which is an accurate report back of what went on. Speaking to the point of order, it was referring to a sheet of questions which was given to me instead of to the member for speaking to the bottom. The honourable [00:03:00] Mr McClean. Mr. Chairman, whichever side of the house whichever side of the argument members of the House are on, they would expect that a report on a petition from a large number of citizens, whatever argument there may be about the actual number will be treated seriously and with some dignity by the house. At the moment. Sir, we have not heard much about the We've not heard much about the petition hearing itself. We've heard some derogatory comments about those people who assembled [00:03:30] outside parliament for the presentation of the petition. We've heard derogatory comments about some of the people who appeared before the committee, and we've heard derogatory comments about some of the members of Parliament who served on the committee. Now, sir, at a certain stage, I believe the dignity of this House demands that you draw the member to the attention of standing orders and particularly the narrow purposes of this particular debate. Speaking further to the chamber where members [00:04:00] have the right of free speech within the confines of standing orders, this petition is being reported back with no recommendation, which I would suggest to you as this matter, right. The way through is a conscience matter is one where all members have the right of free speech are not constrained in any way. And if the member, though he be chairman, wishes to make comments on the nature of the petition, the evidence presented by the petitioners, [00:04:30] the attitudes which they adopt, then that sir, is his choice. And all members of this house on either side as this is a conscience issue have the right to respond in the way that they see fit. I think we've got, uh, two points here, and I think that they both have equal weight and importance. I think that the the point that was raised considering relevance is an important one it's referred to in Speaker's rulings on Page 27 number five. Only those matters that were dealt within a select committee and were in the bill may be discussed [00:05:00] on a report of a select committee. An appropriate time for a wider discussion of the principles of the bill and which is contained in the bill is during the second reading. Now I think so far as he's gone, the member for Hamilton West, uh, has fitted those requirements. Um, I'll allow them to continue, but I draw members attention to the fact that we must remain narrow in our consideration, Uh, of the petition. It's what went on in a consideration of this petition in the select committee that we are debating. And, uh, I think, [00:05:30] too, that it's, uh, worth considering that that the chief government whip is correct. Also that, um, other members, if they wish to reflect upon the proceedings of the Select Committee, are free to take part in the debate. Trevor Mallard, Mr Speaker, the member for Invercargill, also played a prominent part in the committee as well as telling of his experiences in Cairo, he tabled a long list of practises adopted by some people promoting the petition, which led to a questioning of [00:06:00] the validity of some of the signatures. I carefully examined the petition as it related to my electorate. The petition has claimed that 17,000 electors had signed it. In actual fact. Their coding showed that only 12,000 were claimed against Hamilton west, of which only 3188 are on the electoral roll. There are over 100 cases in Hamilton of multiple [00:06:30] signatures and many cases of the same hand writing being used for more than one name. The petitioner's witnesses stated that it was thought acceptable for one person to sign for their family, their workmates or persons too inebriated to sign in a hotel. Mr. Speaker, it is role of the house to deal with the homosexual [00:07:00] law reform bill and dealing with it. They should carefully consider the actions of the petitioners. It would be inappropriate to refer it to the government as it is a private member's bill and therefore the committee made no recommendation. Norman Jones Mr Speaker, I wish to move by way of an amendment that the motion be amended by [00:07:30] adding the following words and be referred to the government for most favourable consideration. And I do so, Mr Speaker, because this petition presented of 817,000 signatures to this parliament is the largest ever petition presented to Parliament of this country and far exceeds the Save Manapouri petition of 260,000 signatures which I was responsible for starting and have also far exceeds. The [00:08:00] Maru saved the beach forest petition of 341,000 signatures and to have this parliament receive a petition at the time of 817,000 signatures. And this petition started only seven months ago. And in those seven months, right after the time of presentation, this house 1,817,000 signatures. And since then they've been coming at the rate of 1000 a day. And I have here another 18,000 signatures [00:08:30] and that which I cannot present to this house because this petition has been presented. But I put produced them here and that makes the total 835,000 senators now, irrespective of what the member for Hamilton West now, Hamilton West says. And he was chair of this committee, I might say, Mr Speaker, that during before the committee stages during the committee stages on this bill and before this major petition was presented to this house that chairman, acting chairman, then presented [00:09:00] to all members of the government all government MPs Government research law reform petition not to all government MPs Government Research unit from Trevor Mallard MP for Hamilton West 18th of September. Before this petition was even presented. And that chairman, who's supposed to be impartial, I would have expected it from the from the member for Wellington Central but to her credit she didn't do it but to have the acting, then acting chairman of the committee, present to the to his own [00:09:30] members of parliament who were on the committee. We have reasons that the total figures of the Keith the homosexual Law reform petition should be challenged before it was even presented to this house before the committee even got it. We have written the first letters, the following in the name of the chairman of the committee and he goes on as he said today, that there were school boys saying that they had signed it 20 to 27 times while any school boy that lied about 20 to 27 times lying, who [00:10:00] should believe him. On the 28th time when he told his own member of parliament that had signed it 27th time, he lied 27th time. Why should the member for Hamilton West believe him on the 28th time? We presented this petition to Parliament in good faith, and we put it into we put it into electorate form mainly not because it was necessary because, quite frankly, because, quite frankly, it is irrelevant this petition, now of 835 [00:10:30] signatures, speaks for itself. It needs no explanation, Mr Chairman, The many hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders, yes, aid from probably 12 to to to upwards because the bill affects 12 year olds, not six year olds. We couldn't put it. We're quite prepared to concede that there are probably below voting age signing the petition, but certainly not the numbers of Children. And I will prove quite conclusively because [00:11:00] because we can produce another petition if necessary, and indeed intend to do so based based on the computerised electoral role. So whatever the fate of this petition, this issue is not going to go away. It will remain with this country right up to and including election year. And I tell you now, from the chief petitioners of 835,000 petitions that we will computerised electoral rolls and we will put 500 people into every electorate. And [00:11:30] we'll give the member for Hamilton West and the member for Wellington Central a computerised electoral roll petition to repeal to repeal whatever bill is passed in this house and we'll give them an electoral petition on which the roll numbers of every of every vote the names and addresses printed provision for the signature. And we'll give each of those 4 to 500 people 50 names to contact within the next 12 months, and then I personally will be. Will will [00:12:00] move at the appropriate time, a homosexual law reform repeal bill, which time we will give him voters. We will make this an election issue, and if he doesn't believe and if he doesn't believe that we can do that, I can tell him we can produce 835 signatures in seven months. We have the support, we have the finance and we have the money. And that's the sort of petition. So it's not going to go away. Mr. Speaker, the honourable I beg your pardon before I call the next Honourable Member. The question, [00:12:30] uh before the houses that the report be up on the table since when it's been moved by way of amendment in the following terms that the motion be amended by adding the following words quote and be referred to the government for most favourable consideration. The Honourable Anne Mr Speaker, I must challenge the figures of the hay petition in relation to evidence from my own electorate of [00:13:00] Littleton. Mr. Speaker, when I was given through my office a report of the hay petition divided into electorates, I naturally looked up the electorate of Littleton. And there was a claim that 5139 people had signed the petition identified as coming from within the boundaries of the Littleton electorate. Mr. Speaker, I chose to take a very large team of workers over a period [00:13:30] of several days to that room in this building where that petition was lodged. Every single sheet in every one of the 92 boxes containing the petition sheets were searched, and each sheet that contained a Littleton address was put aside and xeroxed. Those Xerox sheets were taken back to my electorate, where a second [00:14:00] team of workers examined each one of the signatures in relation to each one of the addresses. Mr. Speaker, I was first of all, extremely puzzled to find not 5139 signatures but 1500 signatures. A very small proportion of the larger number claimed I went through every [00:14:30] single sheet in the whole 92 boxes, not not myself alone but myself with the team of helpers. Over three days, 1500 signatures and addresses only, Mr Speaker that related to addresses in the Littleton electorate. Not 5139. My team of helpers in the Littleton electorate [00:15:00] then checked each one of those 1. 5 1000 names. And I have to report to the house, Mr Speaker, that the vast majority of those 1500 names appeared to be genuine. There were signatures while which an eligible were able to be checked against the habitation index and judged to be appropriately the signatures of those persons. The vast majority of the addresses were correctly in the [00:15:30] Littleton electorate. But, Mr Speaker, what I am saying is that there is, I think, substantial evidence from the Littleton electorate that the hay petition has somehow totally overrepresented and misrepresented the number of signatures they claim on the petition, which come from the Littleton electorate. There is a double check on this Mr Speaker, which [00:16:00] I find fascinating as the house will know. I recently held a referendum in the Littleton electorate with ballot papers delivered to every single household. Those point of order, Mr Speaker. Nothing that we have heard so far in any way, shape or form relates to the report back from a select committee. Mr. Speaker, while I respect what the member is saying regarding how she [00:16:30] feels about the petition, we are talking about the petitions course at the select committee. Now, sir, I'd ask you to ask her to address her comments to the matter before the House. A report back on the select committee or the amendment speaking to the point of order. Mr. Chairman, Um, the member on her feet is indeed speaking to the evidence given to the select committee. The witnesses that appeared before the committee presenting [00:17:00] the petition were examined at length as to the, um, method they had used to ascertain the eligibility of the signatures and the whether or not the signatures were genuine and how they had been collected. And that is exactly what the member for Littleton is addressing in her speech. And I'd suggest you are sticking very closely to the discussion of the select committee that was hearing the petition. Yes, Um, I think that, [00:17:30] uh if one looks at the the speaker's ruling on the subject, uh, found on page 27 it's clear enough that only those matters that were dealt with in the select committee and were in the bill Well, it's not a bill of petition, Uh, may be discussed on the report of a select committee. Now, I don't understand that. Um uh, that the material that is being uh presented by the member for Littleton was in fact heard in the select committee at the same time. What I understand [00:18:00] to be doing is to be introducing a critique of the material that was heard before the select committee, uh, in a form which was pursued at the time that the select committee set. Um, And for those reasons, I would have to allow, um what the what the member is proceeding to do. Although I have to, um, caution her that that she must, in her remarks continue [00:18:30] to refer to the proceedings of the Select Committee and make her material relevant to that consideration. Thank you, Mr Speaker. And I am sir doing exactly that because my understanding of the report of what happened at the at the committee stages was that the petitioners indicated that they, in terms of overall counting and checking, had insisted that at least six different people had minimised [00:19:00] discrepancy. And I am giving evidence evidence, sir, of my independent checking, which contradicts that particular, uh, suggestion. Mr. Speaker, I was saying that there is a double check on what I myself am producing for the house. I was saying that I recently held a referendum in the Littleton electorate and the return from that referendum of those who opposed the bill was 1736 [00:19:30] a remarkably close figure, if I may suggest to the 1500 who in fact said they signed the petition and even more remarkably close figure, sir, when you take into account that a couple of 100 of those who said they signed the petition of the 1500 in fact have to be disallowed because they were, for instance, uh, names of people who were not found on the roll [00:20:00] names of people who in fact, uh, were signing phoney names and so on. Mr. Speaker, I want to suggest that whatever the hay petition represents, it does not represent over 5000 people signing the petition in my electorate at the most, it represents a Mr Peters. There will be people in this country who would have heard that speech with some amusement as I do. [00:20:30] I know all about the constitutional purity of certain members. And the member for Littleton, when she witnessed the greatest constitutional outrageous country has ever seen, remained silent. Dead people voting people voting into this country from Piedmont, California People who didn't live within of my electorate voting and she remained silent. But today she's as pure as the driven snow on whether or not somebody can sign something as innocent as a petition. [00:21:00] Now, sir, she played. She claimed tonight to have had a referendum. Does she not know what the word means? Will she still claim that she had a referendum in her electorate? Of course she did not. So why falsely get up in this house tonight and claim that she did? Now, sir, the petition speaks for itself. 817,000 plus people. It doesn't matter about their ages, their addresses or who or what they are. [00:21:30] What matters is that they are following a century old tradition for the right to petition their parliament. That's the number of the matter. 800 plus something 1000 people petitioning their parliament that they do something about a matter. And it doesn't matter which way or what side of the issue we are on to try and deny it and discredit. It is palpably false. Because if they were wrong [00:22:00] for 50 for 500,000, it would still be the biggest petition and no amount of electoral. Jerry Manning, in the mind of that member over there is going to change that matter now. So I speak in favour of the amendment and against the report back. The chairmanship, sir, on this committee was frankly not within the tradition of this parliament. Abysmal. A chairman, sir, who declared his position. He was biassed impartial, prejudiced, And he put out a letter to his [00:22:30] colleague sir, attempting to damn the petition before it came before him. And I believe, sir, and that is one thing that we must do with standing orders is to rule out that sort of behaviour on the part of a chairman preach of privilege. You name it, sir. He was involved in it. the member for Hamilton West, and he's got the audacity to get up and try and damn members who hold a different point of view. He says that some school Children signed 27 times. Name one. [00:23:00] Here's a fair challenge. Name one school boy who signed that petition 27 times. Now the thorough analysis they have claimed to have done on this petition would enable them to step up right now and say, Yes, I know who that boy is because many boys did it. That's what they said. Can I name one? Of course they can't. Of course they can't and they won't and they won't. And it's the reason why the member from Hamilton West will go because you cannot get up in this house on a matter sensitive to so many [00:23:30] people and get away with that patently false conscience Vote or not, When the truth is not a matter of conscience, we can have a different conscience. But we're talking about truth now, and that's what separates the member from Hamilton West from those who want to have some veracity regarding their argument in this debate. Now, sir, the fact of the matter is simply to see it. This petition, which was signed by over 800,000 New Zealanders, got but a few [00:24:00] hours before the select committee. And those few hours serve belie everything the deputy prime minister has ever said about how he was going to hold select committee hearings. If ever we have seen just how shallow that man is, it's to do with this petition. And he has in all these debates, said absolutely nothing. His total record before the rotary clubs and all that. All those speech, speech speaking [00:24:30] engagements he had about open government about reforming the select committee, Uh, but lies before the truth of this committee. Order, Order, order, order! Firstly, I'm going to ask the, uh, the honourable gentleman if he would, uh, withdraw that remark. That reference to the, uh he knows the word I'm referring to, and I ask him to withdraw, and I just before I go on, might I again, uh, come back to the Honourable Member? I've just [00:25:00] taken over the chair, but I am having difficulty in relating what the honourable gentleman is saying to the report of that, uh, on the of the committee before us on this petition for you, sir. They gave this committee. They gave the select committee hearing of a petition which is two times bigger than anything else else ever come for this country? Parliament. But a few hours. That's how I read it, very simply. Demons. It was treated, sir, in the most cursory and terse cavalier [00:25:30] and arrogant fashion. And the deputy Prime Minister should get to his feet tonight and explain what he meant when he talked about. Give Parliament real control. This is back on 224, 84 2nd of April 84. Of course, that was before the election. And then we talked about giving select communities equality of democracy. What was he talking about? It's high time he'd got up and explained himself because, frankly, sir, I don't care what side of the issue people are on these people who are feeling a very carefully affair. [00:26:00] Mr. Bray Brook. Mr. Speaker, The right to petition Parliament is an ancient right throughout the English speaking world. It is a means by which citizens can bring to their members, even the Queen or the King. That would was in old times the fact that they thought something was wrong and they demanded justice. Mr. Speaker, When this bill was introduced, there was an almost instantaneous reaction to it throughout New [00:26:30] Zealand. It came as a surprise to many. It came as a surprise, I might add, to many politicians as well, because none of us neither members or parties, had a mandate for this bill. So this petition was a reaction to the introduction of that bill. It was also a reaction and a genuine concern of fear that went through many of our citizens. Of that, I am absolutely sure, Mr. Speaker, it was fairly obvious that when the petition was launched that those [00:27:00] who promoted the bill in favour of homosexual law reform would have to pull out all the stops to try and degrade by whatever means the petition. True or false, everything would have to be done because they knew that a petition of this magnitude would have a huge punch power in this chamber. And so we have heard today about people who cannot be named signing 27 times and other people [00:27:30] on the tombstones and graveyards and what have you, Mr Speaker, even if only half the petitions are genuine. I believe that that's grossly concerned. Even if only half are genuine, it still remains a huge petition. It still remains a very, very strong concern being expressed by the citizens of this nation against the introduction of this bill. I am quite aware that the bill will be debated tomorrow night and will go to a vote and committee [00:28:00] stages and what have you. But this is the citizen's way of telling members of Parliament to go no further. It is their right to do so, and I respect that right speaker. I was very disappointed to hear my colleague on the report back in an insulting manner describe what happened on Parliament steps. When this petition was presented. I was there together with some other colleagues from my own caucus. Mr. Speaker, I did [00:28:30] not think of Nuremberg. How on earth could anybody, except with a warped mind, say that? How could anybody when people get up and sing their country's national anthem, surely that is not an insult and then say the Lord's prayer. We even pray in this chamber. Does that remind anybody of Nuremberg? And that the girls brigade or the the church groups were there in the girls and boys brigade uniforms carrying the flag of their [00:29:00] country. Is that Nuremberg? Let me tell you that that is an insult to even suggest it. I defend the rights of any citizen to present a petition to their parliament. It is their right, and we should respect it. Mr. Speaker, we have heard a lot of human rights concerning this petition. I just wonder if the same concern for human rights will come later in this session when a bill is presented for the human rights of the unborn. I bet we hear a different story then, Mr Speaker, [00:29:30] I support the amendment moved by the member for Invercargill. It is cavalier, to say the least, to reject this petition and have no recommendation whatsoever for a largest petition in our country's history. I am rather sad that those who have objected to the petition and have actually promoted the bill and they have every right to do that should have sat in judgement on it. I think, Mr Speaker, [00:30:00] that that was wrong. Justice must not only be done, it must be seen to be done. And I believe that that is an important consideration which was lacking when this petition was presented. And I regret that. Sincerely, Mr Speaker, can I just close by saying that this issue will not die? This issue will not go away even when the bill to which this petition refers to is voted upon. And even if the position petition itself is [00:30:30] committed to the archives in the hearts and minds of citizens of this country, there is an overwhelming desire. I believe that it should not proceed. And that petition actually echoes those thoughts. The only way to settle it is a referendum. I am absolutely convinced of that. And let the people of New Zealand decide by presenting this petition they have already spoken. And it be it belittle us all here to jeer, sneer or degrade, or [00:31:00] try and belittle an honest petition for which many 1000 signed in good faith. I'm, uh, in some quan here. Excuse me. Um, just stop the clock. Uh, I normally take go from one side to the other, and I think that that would be the better way in handing this debate that I move from one side of the chamber to the other. Although I realise that there are people in the chamber who are irrespective party [00:31:30] have different views. Now I'm getting a call. At this point. I can. I think I know the views of the various people. If I was to call a person with the contrary point of view to the one to the member who's just spoken, I've got to call a member of his own party. If I look to the other side and say, Oh, I should be giving a call to someone from the opposition party I know that we're going to have somebody with the uh, who's expressing a similar view to this petition as the speaker [00:32:00] who's just spoken now I'm in the hands of the of the chamber present. I am inclined to go from side to side. I think that would be fairer in one way, but it does. It could mean that there could be a preponderance of speakers on one side of this issue and for that reason I feel that there's a justification for really calling on Mr Walla at this stage. But if there's no real objection to that in the chamber, anybody [00:32:30] speaker, I rise to support your ruling, sir. Of course, I just want to make this point that the member for Nelson, who was going to take the court before the member for Napier, will have an opportunity because I understand, sir, that it's your intention on this matter to take as many members as wish to only one hour, one hour debate. Well, under those circumstances, sir, then I think that is the point I make exactly is that it's [00:33:00] only fair that you take it from one side of the house to the other, and that only strengthens your decision. So I think you've made a very good decision, sir, and I concur with what you said, I think you are, and that this is a conscience vote on both sides of the house. There are no party lines in calling the member for Napier. The speaker in the chair before you, in fact, called two members in a row on the same side. Were you now to call the member for hierarchy? That [00:33:30] would mean three members in a row on the same side of this issue. And on this issue, the sides are not sides marked by a neat line down the middle of the chamber. They are science in terms of how one views both the bill and the petition, the amendment. And I want to suggest to you that there are very strong arguments for opposing the amendment. Even if one opposes the bill, it is not quite as simple, perhaps as some people have made up, because it comes to the very heart of a conscience. Vote with this [00:34:00] particular amendment. And I suggest to you, sir, that there is good reason for suggesting that the member for Nelson should have the next call. Indeed, there reasons for suggesting that two members opposed to the amendment should be called in a row, since two members in support of the amendment were called in a row. Previously, however, I think it would be quite unfair, sir, in terms of the balance within a one hour time limit debate to call three members in a row from one side of the house where I think all members recognise [00:34:30] that her house is fairly evenly poised between two sides on this issue which runs across party lines. Right. Mr. Lee. Mr. Lee. Yes, Mr Lee. Mr. Speaker. It was appropriate in a second reading that the ruling was given that it should favour those against and those four in alternate four. That was a debate without limit. This debate, sir, is a one hour debate, and it's appropriate. I believe [00:35:00] that your ruling before the House now should be endorsed that it be alternate from the government to the opposition, sir, with a limited time debate. That would be the only reasonable and fair ruling in this matter. The only thing that I'm concerned about in replying to the honourable member who's asked on his feet is that really there's no government opposition, uh, operating at the present time on this matter. And I draw attention of the members to speakers' rulings on this matter of page 51 [00:35:30] number two on page 51 where the speaker is, uh, dealing with a situation where the whips are not operating. Uh, he has a number of criteria and calling for members, and this is over for the choice of the speaker. Firstly, he tends to look at here. He tends to call on senior members of the house. First, he tends, then to alternate between sides of the house, although not knowing which side of the argument individuals are on. And thirdly, he must note the length of [00:36:00] time a member has been seeking a call that is relevant. But, uh, the degree of a member's involvement with the subject is so relevant, and that's number a number four in this matter. Now, those are the matters that are guiding me and guided speakers in the past on that ground, knowing the involvement in this matter of, uh, the member who spoke last and the member who would now seek the call from the, uh can I say, the National Party side [00:36:30] of the house rather than the opposition side. I feel constrained this. I feel that I should at this time in rule, in view of that ruling of Mr Speaker, call on Mr Williston. Mr. Speaker, it has properly been said that the presentation of petitions to Parliament is an ancient and important right of the people, and it has a central place in our democracy. And that places a solemn duty on members of the House to [00:37:00] seriously consider petitions presented to the House. But it also presents an equally solemn duty on those seeking to have petitions presented to the house to ensure that what they say about those petitions is correct and to as far as is within their power to make sure that the petitions accurately represent the names on them and the views of the people who have signed them. And in that context, I want to comment on a few aspects of this petition and the evidence [00:37:30] which was given to the select committee on it and one of the or in fact, the two principal petitioners. Mr. Hay and Sir Peter Tate, in presenting their submission, said that the fact that the petition was broken down into electorates demonstrated the bone of fide or good faith of the persons promoting and administering the petition. And they went on to say And I quote, If the petitioners had felt they had anything to hide, the petition could have been presented in any order which would have made it almost impossible to criticise the logistics, [00:38:00] statistics and inferences drawn from it. And certainly it did appear when the petition was presented to members of Parliament on the steps and brought into this chamber shortly thereafter that it was sorted into electorates. There were 92 boxes. They were brought to this house with the names of electorates on them. I went to the strong room in which the petition was kept expecting to find the box which contained signatures from my electorate. In order to view those signatures, I got there and found. Not only were the boxes [00:38:30] about 7/8 empty because they were large boxes, but also found that the impression which had been given to the television watching public of a petition presented by electorates was not correct. And the claim made by the chief petitioners before the select committee, which they said represented or indicated the good faith of the petitioners was in fact a totally void claim because they were not sorted into electorates. Mr. Speaker, I was not able, with the resources and the time available to me to check fully, to find [00:39:00] just how many signatures from my electorate there were. I did go through 50% of the boxes and from them found a sample of forms bearing a code on them, which was the parliamentary electoral code for my electorate, which presumably meant that those names had been entered onto the onto a computer to churn out the number which purported to be from Nelson. And I want to look at some of those. Mr Speaker. I was sent a document by the petitioners, which claimed that 12,142 [00:39:30] people residing in the Nelson electorate had signed, and that was compared with the number of electors in that electorate and with the suggestion that there was a majority of electors who in fact were opposed to the passage of this bill in my electorate. In fact, at least a third of the names purporting to come from my electorate, according to my sample, are not correct, and I have here of photocopies of some sheets, which I'm happy to table. Here is one which has 23 names, all attributed to Nelson. None of the people on that sheet gave addresses in the Nelson [00:40:00] electorate. Here is another one, which had some 26 names, of which 25 were attributed to Nelson. 16 of them those ones came from other electorates, and two others were not on the roll. Only seven correct another sheet with six people from another electorate. All encoded Nelson. Three people on this one all encoded Nelson. Sorry, four all from another. Only one of them is from from the Nelson Electorate. And perhaps the most interesting of all, Mr Speaker here is one which contains a number of names. It has [00:40:30] 25 names on it. 21 were attributed to Nelson. Of those, I think some two were actually on the electoral roll in Nelson. The others gave Nelson addresses. They appear to be in the handwriting. Children. Many of them appear to be in the same handwriting. One of those people was contacted on my behalf by one of my checkers who was known to that person. She is a college pupil in Nelson. She stated that she had never seen the petition and certainly had not signed it. I'm not saying, Mr Speaker, that that means none of the signatures [00:41:00] purporting to come from Nelson are in fact, valid. What it does mean is that certainly a significant proportion of those signatures claimed to be from the Nelson electorate are in fact either from other electorates wrongly attributed to my electorate, or are in some way, or are those of minors or possibly people who were not who did not sign it I also had a number of people complain to me about coercion brought on them to sign the petition at the workplace where they were subject [00:41:30] to the censure of their workmates if they declined. I have also had an instance of a child of approximately 10 years old being, uh, harassed. Uh, what would be That was the word that was used to me into signing a petition on the main street and Mr Speaker that I think does fall into faith. Question the good faith of the petitioners. Mr. Speaker, I want to endorse confirm the amendment of my colleague that this petition be given most favourable consideration. It's an insult [00:42:00] to the intention and the integrity of 817 plus news 1000 New Zealanders that the petition should have come back with a no recommendation before the house. So from the outset, let the house be reminded that the acting chairman that day the member for Hamilton West sought to restrict the opportunities of the petitioners to give their evidence [00:42:30] to give their evidence. There was all sorts of unprincipled behaviour, partial behaviour in the chair to restrict the opportunities that the petitioners should rightly have had presenting, as they were the largest ever petition in the history of the nation and of this parliament. It was for the reason of the debacle that ensued, that I felt it necessary to move a vote of no confidence in the chair, sir. And it's only because of the predominance [00:43:00] of the government members and the way they thought that that motion was lost. It wasn't lost on the public of New Zealand, sir. And the submission that was made that day by the petitioners was in that form, sir, a very professional submission, a compilation of a number of people who gave what I believe was in fact, evidence of unequal quality. Sir, In that evidence, Mr Keith Hay spoke [00:43:30] about the family breakdown that would result if this bill became law. Sir Peter Tate commented about the necessity of keeping the present law as a buffer law and that in fact, every everything had been done to ensure that the petition was handled correctly in the public place. A Mr Alan Anderson, an ex senior laboratory scientist, referred [00:44:00] to the fact that he believed that AIDS would indeed escalate and would exacerbate with the decriminalisation should this bill go through and we would see, in fact, a worsening situation. Mr. Peter van R, a solicitor, referred to the fact that this legislation was, in fact a pace setter. It was the most progressive of its type in the world and that we were, in fact, pawns in the world gay scene in so far that this Parliament was [00:44:30] being asked to pass legislation that had not been passed anywhere else in the world. A Reverend Phillips gave further evidence that the Bible was clear in his teaching, and it spoke very clearly against homosexuality. Practise. Mr. James Bacon from a professor in the university also gave very clear evidence, sir, about the implications in the classroom and the way that this would [00:45:00] dam the Children of our nation. If this bill became law, sir, the evidence was clearly that this petition was the largest ever presented to this parliament. Indeed, at 817 plus 1000 it would have achieved its a million targets set by the petitioners if they would had time. It was gathered otherwise, in just over [00:45:30] six months time, a remarkably short period and, sir, that everything was done. According to the petitioners to ensure that the petition was in fact carried through with integrity with care with caution. And that's why it had at the bottom for the first time in petition history, a note to say that only people above or secondary age should sign a petition. And so it was also noted that this petition per capita [00:46:00] would be the largest petition on a basis ever presented to any Western parliament in the history of the world. Now, sir, of course, there were allegations. And of course, there were attempts to deny and discredit the petition. Because that is the only way that, in fact, proponents of the bill and opponents of the petition could in fact make their case valid. Sir, that was not achieved In spite of the comments that we made to the house tonight. The comments made first by the member for Littleton [00:46:30] all hinge on the fact that her people went through all those boxes. Sir, I challenge her to in fact, give more evidence that the petition was presented to Parliament, not to individuals. Yes. Uh, Mr Mr Speaker, I want to comment on some of the, um activities that took place at the committee because I think it's important that the public know, uh, what the, uh, petitioners told us when we asked them in particular about the integrity [00:47:00] of the petition, which the previous speaker has just mentioned. They brought to the committee and Mr Wilding, who had apparently been there scrutineer, um, in Auckland for the petition. He told us that each sheet had gone, been gone over carefully, probably about six times that the names on them had been encoded for electorates and that finally, the results were all written down. They had been allocated out. And of course, the result was this gold covered book, which was sent to all members of Parliament. [00:47:30] We asked that man and the other witnesses, How did they come by? The figures in this book purported to show the percentage of the electoral population who had signed a petition in each electorate. It was very interesting. I particularly asked, Did they use habitation, a habitation index for each electorate to check the names and the streets of the people? Mr. Wing's answer to my question was, What's that? He did not know what a habitation index was. Did you use electoral [00:48:00] roles was my next question, I presume. Then you used the electoral role. No, he said. We didn't electoral roles. We don't have access to that sort of equipment, like members of Parliament have. How then I asked, Did you know which electorate people lived in? Well, he said, our people who are checking just put them into the electorate that they thought they lived in. For example, he said, Uh, we said if they wrote, then the name of the street and simply Hamilton, [00:48:30] how did you allocate them into into electorates? Mr. Wing said. Is it important? Well, I suggest it was important because the committee was presented with evidence by the petitioners to tell us the proportion and the number of electors in each electorate that had signed the petition. The integrity of the petition is clearly in question. Mr. Chair, Mr. Speaker, What we were told was that the names were allocated according to what electorate, [00:49:00] the sort of thought they were in. Those left were put into a pool and allocated out on a pro rata basis. In the case of Hamilton City, between two only Hamilton city electorates, not the four electorates which cover Hamilton. Unfortunately for the petitioners, some academic demographers at Waikato University went to the trouble of examining the Hamilton sample, which was gained by pulling out all the Hamilton [00:49:30] sheets from the petition, which took a number of hours to do in a number of helpers. They found 22. 4% were validly on the role in the electorate claimed by the petitioners. Mr. Speaker, we were assured that the signatures were thoroughly checked and that they were all valid. I was concerned after hearing that evidence as to how valid they were. And I produced some photocopy sheets of some pages from the petition. This is a page which has a number of [00:50:00] Mata Mr Speaker, Here they are on the bottom line, six signatures, all in the same handwriting. How did that come about? I asked one of the petitioners, Mr Roast, How come all in the same handwriting? Well, he said. Often we had Maori families and one person would sign for the whole lot. Very interesting Maori household. This Conlan, Patterson, Thompson, Campbell, all these people with different surnames, all living together in one house in [00:50:30] all with the same handwriting. I suggest that it was a pretty racist statement for Mr Roast to make and clearly indicated that the um, the the petition does not have much integrity. Mr. Speaker, the member for hierarchy, has claimed that they presented professional witnesses. Mr Anderson, he quoted Well, I received a letter from the University of Auckland after the hearing from Dr Paul Goldwater, senior lecturer [00:51:00] in virology, claiming, saying that it was important that he made comments about the validity of Mr Anderson's submission. Mr Anderson is not correct in calling himself a medical laboratory scientist or immuno haematologist, he said. He was a medical laboratory technologist and in fact, although he has very good knowledge of hepatitis viruses, he has evidently not kept up with the current knowledge about AIDS. His professional qualifications were certainly in doubt, [00:51:30] as was the evidence. The factual evidence he gave to the committee was wrong. Mr Speaker, Mr Anderson told us that the Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists were wrong and he was right. He told us the American Psychological Association were wrong and he was right and that the long list of doctors from the Wellington region who signed the petition were Mr Speaker, I rise to support the amendment [00:52:00] that this house should give a favourable considerable a most favourable consideration to this bill. Mr. Chairman, I have got to say, as an observer, an interested observer in the happenings and following of this bill over the last few months that these matters have been handled with obscene hate by a committee of this Parliament. I believe that the principal petitioners and others feel cheated by [00:52:30] the way this committee of Parliament has treated them. And I want to report back that having read most of the submissions to that select committee, although not being a member of the same, that the thrust of the petitioners opposing this bill was simply that this bill was designed to destroy the fundamental building blocks of this nation, the family unit and, of course, ultimately democracy itself. [00:53:00] This bill, according to the principal petitioners in simple terms, is just another set accurately aimed at the crumbling house of Christianity. The petitioners opposing the bill and other so called social reform. The petitioners opposing the bill believe that this bill and other so-called social reform [00:53:30] will have a devastating medical, social and moral impact on the future of this country. I happen to believe that what those 800,000 people have to say is that simple message. And I stand here tonight telling this house that simple message. They are concerned they have come to the highest court in the land. And they have been cheated by this committee of Parliament, of [00:54:00] which, at one time, the member for Hamilton West was the chairman, at which time a vote of no confidence was moved in his chairmanship. And the day I called on this committee, his colleague, the member for Hamilton East, was the chairman of the committee. And I have never seen such a sicker, sicker performance speaker by that point. Mr. Speaker, this petition was heard on one. The member for re was never a member [00:54:30] of that committee. That is irrelevant to the that is not a valid point of order. Any member may comment on the proceedings of the committee. Mr. Chairman, the member is actually correct about the petition itself. What I was referring to was submissions to the bill which I believe the 800,000 people listening tonight on the wireless will want to establish [00:55:00] Sir and It's part of this general thrust that I am concerned about the cavalier way in which that chairman, the member for Hamilton West, treated the people that turned up to give submissions at their expense because of their concern to this committee of Parliament. And they were treated thoroughly, badly, and 11,052 people in say, Mr Banks, we do not want you to support this bill or this petition, [00:55:30] this petition, and that's what I'm going to do. I support the 800,000 New Zealanders that came to parliament to show that they were outraged at this initiative and wanted it stopped dead in their tracks. And that's why I rise to speak to the amendment that my colleague moved. 11,000 people in signed that. But even if there was only 10,500 it is still enough. And in a recent [00:56:00] radio poll conducted in my electorate by Radio New Zealand that can be checked by the member for Wellington Central, the architect of the bill in question, 80% of Ware people said no. 80% of people said no. We don't want this homosexual law reform because they do believe that the family unit is so they have asked me to [00:56:30] come down here and state to this house very clearly their opposition to this legislative initiative and to say that they want me to support the amendment that my colleague moved to make this a most favourable report to parliament. It is absolutely outrageous that the government member for Wellington Central should have been a principal participant on this day of this petition because I saw her performance on the [00:57:00] day on the one day that I sat in on the submission to the principal bill and the way she manipulated the sycophantic member for Hamilton in East, the chairman on that day would have to be seen to be believed. It was sickening. It was a conspiracy by members of a committee of this parliament that I have never seen before. I have never seen before. This parliament has gone down [00:57:30] in the eyes of the public of New Zealand as a result of the way of the concerns of 800,000 New Zealanders have expressed to this parliament and have been treated in a most obscene way. Helen. Mr Speaker, I want to make one point about the hearing of the petition before the select committee, and that is that all members of the opposition who are present were given a full opportunity to ask their questions. And indeed, the sponsor of the bill, the member for Wellington Central, only [00:58:00] asked her questions when other members of the committee had finished. And I think that answers many of the points raised by the member for so I want to take a line and raise an issue which I think has not been raised properly in the debate so far, which I think is crucial for members of Parliament to understand because I think the amendment moved by limber cargo is in fact a very dangerous amendment. And even members who oppose the bill should think very [00:58:30] carefully before they support this amendment, because what the amendment does is refer the petition to the government for most favourable consideration to the government for most favourable consideration and what the amendment does. If the member in Baca would do me the honour of hearing me in silence as I heard him, then he would learn he learn that the government nor the opposition neither [00:59:00] has a policy on this bill. It is absolutely inappropriate and I'll come to that. I will come to that matter in a minute. It is absolutely inappropriate for an amendment to be moved in this house which undermines the very basis of conscience voting. And I want to say to my colleague, the member for Napier, that he may recall that at least two occasions I have stood up before the Labour Party conference [00:59:30] and supported his right to a conscience vote on issues where the majority, the overwhelming majority of that conference, was opposed to the view that he takes. And indeed, by and large, I was in sympathy with the majority of that conference because I believe that the members of this House do have a right to a conscience vote on certain moral issues. [01:00:00] And the amendment moved by the member for Invercargill undermines the basis of that conscience vote. Because it is saying it is saying if it is passed that the government should have a position in opposition to this bill, and that is the government should not have a position either for or against this bill, and I want to say further, sir, that I'm not here question [01:00:30] the integrity of the 7700 people claimed to have signed the petition In my electorate, I know that some of them have some very strange connections, but I've been into that elsewhere in this house. But I know that most of those are honourable, decent voters. Many of them belong to my own Labour Party branches. But, sir Oh, yes, indeed, in my electorate, which is a rather conservative electorate, but that is not the point. The point is, sir, [01:01:00] that the consciences of members of this House should not be open to barter. This is the kind of issue on which members of this house have to look inside themselves without the aid of government whips or opposition whips and decide what they think is right. And when they have decided what they think is right, then they have the responsibility [01:01:30] to vote according to that action. And the only thing that can channel that freedom because it is a very precious freedom, is if they have made a prior commitment to their electorate to abide by a poll within their electorate on a specific issue. And I have come to resent. So I think many members of this house have come to resent the quite improper pressure which has been brought to bear from both extremes in this [01:02:00] argument, the attempt to blackmail members in terms of votes at the next election, the attempt to blackmail in terms of certain connections or whatever, the attempt to turn members of this house into puppets. Now, what I'm saying to the member in ver cargo is I accept he opposes the bill. I respect his right. But, sir Oh, yes, indeed, in my electorate, which is a rather conservative electorate, [01:02:30] but that is not the point. The point is, sir, that the consciences of members of this house should not be open to barter. This is the kind of issue on which members of this house have to look inside themselves without the aid of government whips or opposition whips and decide what they think is right. And when they have decided what they think is [01:03:00] right, then they have the responsibility to vote according to that action. And the only thing that can travel that freedom because it is a very precious freedom, is if they have made a prior commitment to their electorate to abide by a poll within their electorate on a specific issue, and I have come to resent. So I think many members of this house have come to resent the quite improper pressure which has been brought to bear [01:03:30] from both extremes in this argument, the attempt to blackmail members in terms of votes at the next election, the attempt to blackmail in terms of certain connections, or whatever the attempt to turn members of this house into puppets. Now what I'm saying to the member in the cargo is, I accept. He opposes the bill. I respect his right to do so. I do not agree with him, but I accept he's utterly [01:04:00] sincere in opposing this bill. But he should not come to the this house and say that a matter relating to that bill should receive favourable consideration from the government. That is utterly wrong because he is undermining his very own case, the case by which the members for Napier and the member for Southern Maori and other members on this side will oppose the bill. [01:04:30] Well, the honourable Mr Wellington, Mr Speaker, the the government whip, the chief government whip, like the proponents of the measure, and opponents of the petition tonight simply protest too much as simple as that. And I have not heard the member for Saint Kilda so much on the defensive as he has been in the last [01:05:00] five minutes. His only defence, sir, was to say that the government does not have a policy on this particular measure. So might I ask him, why does his junior whip bring the bill in? He knows very well the long established conventions of this place, which by and large, not prohibit in a technical sense but do by custom and form certainly [01:05:30] frown upon a measure of such a divisive nature being introduced by a whip with senior or junior. And for him to get up and say, Well, of course, the member for nature is opposed to this and therefore the government the Labour Party does not have a formal position on the matter is I repeat, to protest too much. He referred to his electorate, and he says, Well, it's a conservative one. The base [01:06:00] of that member's political support in the electorate of Saint Kilda is the Castle Street branch. That's that's the university as simple as that as simple as that. And I repeat, he protests far too much. And if and if Mr Speaker And if Mr Speaker he is right. Why is it why is it that so many of his colleagues, particularly [01:06:30] particularly the Wellington based members, have polls in their electorates and having had their polls say, But of course, my electorate. Mr. Speaker, thank you. My electorate, Mr. Speaker, they say, supports me in the stand. Supports the bill for homosexual activities amongst young people of 16. Where is there evidence of the polls they conducted in their electorates? Have they been tabled in this house? The [01:07:00] electorate survey from the member for O'Hare, the electorate survey from the member for Miramar, the Electorate survey by the member for East Cape, which had a moving that way and then another way and coming back again. How genuine are those surveys they are not. And so they would not hold a candle to a petition of the people of this country who are common sense and practical, and to hold strong views on a matter of this type and to [01:07:30] say that a petition of unprecedented numbers and magnitude, nearly a million, nearly a million does not count in the councils of this country is manifest nonsense. And that's why the member for Saint Kilda simply protests too much. And for the Deputy Prime minister to sit there and listen to it all and say, Well, of course I'm going to vote for this thing. And the petition means nothing. The great apostle of constitutional purity to be [01:08:00] a party to a or of a government that says petitioning Parliament on this particular issue is not in fact is not. In fact, an exercise this house should listen to is, sir is sir an outstanding example of the member for Christchurch, Um, central double standards and matters of this type because we haven't had consensus in the country since his government came to power and [01:08:30] to ignore the voice of the people as expressed in this manner. And I believe genuinely I haven't counted the people in my own electorate. I haven't had to. I know what they think I regret. The time allotted for this debate has expired, and the question was that the report to be agreed to, but it has since been amended. And the question now is, uh that, [01:09:00] uh, the, uh, petition be referred to the government for most favourable consideration. The question is that that amendment be agreed to. Those who are of that opinion will say I of the contrary opinion will say no. The eyes have it division called for. Ring the bells, the eyes will go to the right. The nose will go to the left. They tell us for the eyes are [01:09:30] well, tell us for the eyes. Uh, Mr Jones and Mr Bray Brook and they'll tell us, uh, for the nose. Uh, Mr Mallard and Miss and Fran, lock the doors. Lock the doors. The question is that the amendment be agreed to. The eyes are 34. The nos are 39. [01:10:00] The amendment will not be agreed to unlock the door. Unlock the doors. The question now is, er that er the motion be agreed to. Those who are of that opinion will say I of their country opinion will say no. The eyes haven't.

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TITLE: Parliament: Committee of the Whole House - Homosexual Law Reform Bill (5 March 1986)
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VOICES: Bill Birch; Doug Kidd; Fran Wilde; George Gair; Graeme Lee; Helen Clark; Jim McLay; John Banks; John Luxton; Maurice McTigue; Merv Wellington; Michael Cullen; Norman Jones; Richard Northey; Richard Prebble; Robert Muldoon; Venn Young; Whetu Tirikatene Sullivan
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bill Birch; Doug Kidd; Fran Wilde; George Gair; Graeme Lee; Helen Clark; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Jim McLay; John Luxton; Maurice McTigue; Merv Wellington; Michael Cullen; Norman Jones; Parliament buildings; Richard Northey; Richard Prebble; Robert Muldoon; Venn Young; Wellington; Whetu Tirikatene Sullivan; equality; filibuster; homosexual; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; human rights; law; politics
DATE: 5 March 1986
YEAR: 1986
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from parts of the Committee of the Whole House during the Homosexual Law Reform Bill, 5 March 1986.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Will stop it. It's done in effect by leave, and it seems to me that it's a very important issue upon which, if necessary, you should take the advice of Mr Speaker. It is quite an important point if the committee of the whole purports to take powers to itself, which under the precedence of this house, it is not entitled to take speaking to the doctor Cullen. The procedure which the House [00:00:30] is now following is the procedure which was followed in consideration of the goods and services tax bill. Uh, last year that is a permissive motion was moved by in in the house. That motion enabled the committee to consider the question of whether or not the bill should be taken part by part, but did not mean that the committee had to take the bill part by part. And I refer you to McGee Page 251. And [00:01:00] I feel I may. Oh, good, you've got another copy. Refer to McGee. Page 251, where it's not an instruction to a committee of the whole house is an abstract motion, and it goes on to say the committee is not therefore forced by an instruction to make an amendment or to divide up a bill into separate bills. Or indeed, of course, by implication to take a bill part by part, it really has power conferred upon it to do those things if it sees fit. Now, the question of whether [00:01:30] or not the committee sees fit is obviously one to be solved by resolution of the committee and is therefore a motion to be debated within the committee. There is no suggestion within that statement that it is one to be resolved by leave where matters to be resolved by leave. That is specifically stated because it is a very particular form of procedure within this House because it empowers a single member of the House if he or she so wishes to thwart the will of the overwhelming majority. [00:02:00] And I suggest to you, sir, that having had the precedent of the goods and services tax which indeed I think was the first time that the motion was put and debated in the committee as a whole for a very long time, having had that precedent, we are now following that precedent through on a private member's bill and it is a matter to be settled by debate and no doubt by resolution and division within the committee. Uh, speaking to the point of order, Mr Norvin. Well, [00:02:30] Mr Speaker, we've heard it all. Now, we are now going to do the same with this bill as we did with the goods and services tax. Have one ever heard anything so ridiculous? We are talking about the greatest moral issue that's turned this whole country upside down. In the 11 years I've been in Parliament before I go back to 74 to the point of order. Oh, I'm sorry. I thought I thought the thought the member was adding to the point. [00:03:00] I'm ready to rule on the subject, and I thank members for their comments. I think that the point is, um, pretty adequately covered in its, uh, in general terms, um, in the quote given from McGee. But to come back to the particular question raised by the member for, um was, um, and followed, followed up by the member for Tamaki. Um, it's pretty clear that what has happened in the past, where there has been an instruction [00:03:30] from the house that the committee may consider a bill part by part. What has been the practise in the past is that that has been considered an instruction which not just, uh, empowers the committee. Uh, but obliges it now, Um, the member for Madaba is quite right, that, um, in the past, where a voice has been raised, Um, that is then, uh, a question, [00:04:00] uh, for the committee to decide. Uh, a voice was raised in this instance when the motion that the committee may consider the bill part by part was put to the committee and there having been dissent, a voice of dissent. Uh, it was then appropriate, uh, for for the member for, uh, Wellington Central to move as she has done so that the committee has got the power if [00:04:30] it wishes to take it. Um and it's It's in the process of deciding now, since it has since it has the power, it wishes to exercise it. Um, this is Well, uh, well, we've had that point of order. At least the has another one you would give me. Uh, thank you to Wellington, Mr Mr Mr. Chairman, I I've listened carefully to what you have said and the speeches leading up uh, to your last [00:05:00] comment. Perhaps you would be good enough to explain to the committee. Um, the first paragraph in the three sided sheets that have come around under your name as chairman of committees. I. I found these on my, um, bill box. I think about three quarters of an hour ago. I think the wording is important at State, sir. The following proposal is put forward [00:05:30] in the light of the complexity and potential conflicts arising from SOPS proposed to the bill comma to facilitate consideration of the bill and its various amendments. Can I ask who were parties to putting forward that proposal? I would like your clarification of that when the parties to the proposal met. Thirdly, Mr [00:06:00] Chairman, Why? Why should the Committee of Parliament make it easier to resolve complexities and potential conflicts? This for this is what we are here to do with deliberation. Proper thought. Now, I should be grateful, Mr. Chairman, if you could elaborate, particularly on the first two, certainly. Um I think it is probably better for us to actually consider how we're going to deal with the bill if [00:06:30] it is to be dealt with in part after we dealt with the question that we now have before the committee, which is whether or not it should be dealt with in part. But I take the point that the member has raised, which is that the committee, um should not have any any form or or procedure imposed upon it. And certainly the document which the member has referred to and which has been circulated, uh, over my name is not an attempt to in any way give any, [00:07:00] uh, guidance beyond that which might be helpful at this stage. We're asked the question that is now, before the committee has been decided. We come to a question of how in in the part, by part, consideration if there is to be such a part by part, consideration how we deal with it. But I take the member's point. It's entirely in the hands of the committee how that should be done. And certainly not certainly not in, uh, in my hands to tell the committee set the point a little further. Clarification. The fact remains, the committee [00:07:30] of Parliament has three pieces of paper unsigned, But I accept you. I No, I accept absolutely that they've come from your office As chairman of committees. I accept that despite the fact the third page is unsigned, might I repeat my question? Who are the parties to the proposal? And when did they meet so that you were in a position you may not have wished to be In a provision to put forward such a proposal, [00:08:00] I, I would I would be happy for the order happy for the member to to raise those questions at the appropriate point of the committee. We asked. The question that we are now dealing with has been dealt with. We come then, If the committee decides we should we come then to how the bill should be dealt with part by part. I'm ruling, in other words, that the member is right to raise those questions. But not now. He may do so later. Um, Mr [00:08:30] the Honour was young, and I point out to you with the you gave me the call. Uh, before you called my colleague, I think the member for on a point of order there were there were a number of members seeking the call. A point of order. II, I must call on the point of order that's been raised. Are you speaking to the point of view is that you ruled on the second point which the member for Papakura raised. But you did not [00:09:00] respond to the first point, and I wondered if I might speak to that first point, namely, uh, the the the question of the sequence. Now, my understanding is that whether the subject is debated part by part or clause by clause would affect the speaking time. But the sequence in which the amendment should be taken whether the House decides to handle it part by part or clause by [00:09:30] clause should still follow the procedure set out in the piece of paper so that the house can, in orderly fashion, address a sending order of age. The how the committee may or may not to decide to adopt this procedure. They may or may not. But it is not a question for the committee to address now. It would be premature to address that question at this time. Now, uh, I [00:10:00] there are There were several people on their feet. I'm inviting members to, uh, to take the call. Um, the Honourable uh, Mr Chairman, I normally would have some difficulty with a resolution such as this, uh, on a private member's bill, that is a conscience issue. Uh, after all, what is being sought is a restriction of members speaking rights, uh, on [00:10:30] this very controversial piece of legislation. But, sir, but for two things one is that this Parliament has already spent an exhaustive amount of time with individual members of Parliament stating very clearly what their opinions are on the measure. And also, Mr Speaker, uh, the fact that there are many [00:11:00] important issues for this chamber to deal with as my colleague, uh, for, uh, pointed out, Mr. Speaker, it is upon our shoulders. I believe, having debated this bill as fully as could possibly have been the case during the introduction. Uh, during the second reading during the short title of the legislation, we've heard the opinion of every member of this house, except, [00:11:30] I think the Prime Minister and now they're out in the country around us. Uh, there are issues of tremendous importance. We all know how we're going to vote on this bill. Each one of us in this chamber has made up his or her mind and almost Everyone has told their colleagues exactly how they're going to vote. Mr. Chairman, I want to get on to the economic issues that are driving this country apart. [00:12:00] That's what we ought to out of order. The member is out of order. He may not say what we should be debating what we are debating and that's all he's entitled to debate is the question before the committee, quite a narrow one that the homosexual law reform bill be considered part by part. I ask the member to keep to that question, Mr Speaker. Uh, by taking the bill part by part, it will give the members of this chamber the opportunity on private Members Day to move [00:12:30] with greater speed to a number of bills, of which the House already has noticed. It is the intention of the opposition to introduce legislation to re to return to the local government sector, the right for individual constituent of local authorities to have a say. Now, Mr Chairman, we want to get hold of that bill and we want to debate it here. It is a matter of great importance, and I say to my colleagues [00:13:00] because they do know in their heart of hearts that we have all made up our mind. Let us get on with the business. Let us register our votes and determine whether or if it does, in what form this piece of legislation proceeds. Um, Mr McTigue, Thank you, Mr Chairman, as the newest member of this house and as this being [00:13:30] the first substantial conscience issue that I have been involved in. I am opposed to seeing the procedure recommended being adopted. And I am opposed because I don't give credence to the fact that it will take us 31 hours per part to get through it and debate, I put more credibility. I put more credibility on the on the members of this house than that. But I am opposed to a situation where I will be required to vote on clauses within this particular part of the bill which will very substantially [00:14:00] alter the social structure of our society, will have an impact on the 3 million people that live in New Zealand. And yet the arguments. Yet the arguments to which I will be required to pay attention and finally make my decision on may be well divorced in time from the time at which that decision is made as we go through the amendments to this particular section. Indeed, where there are seven amendments, the concept of what we have done debated [00:14:30] to date Mr Speaker, as substantially changed as those amendments come to bear. And I think that we have a right to be able to consider the implications of that and the arguments that can be made in that changing situation as they eventuate and make our decisions in that perspective. And consequently, I am totally opposed to the course of action being proposed. The honourable Mr Point of Order. Point of order. Mr. Luxton, I like to [00:15:00] move under standing order 289 that we report progress to take the speaker's ruling as to whether this is a debatable motion. OK, I think that well, the question is that the, uh, motion be agreed to in favour. Say I to the contrary. No, [00:15:30] the, um no haven't moved. The chairman has no other right. It's not a matter of the the House now deciding it's a matter of bringing the speaker back for a rule. I I, uh I appreciate the me order would would the would the members, uh, particularly in this part of the house. Um, stop trying to tell me my job. [00:16:00] And, uh, the member for Wanga Ray will stand and withdraw and apologise. You what? I apologise. The member for Ware is given one more opportunity to stand and withdraw and apologise. I said we've seen some shocking chairmanship from you tonight. Withdraw from the chamber. We've seen some shocking chairman from the chamber. Otherwise the member will be named. [00:16:30] What? We've seen some shocking chairmanship from you tonight. I name the member you are in for of the bill I name the member for And ask the leader of the house to move the appropriate motion. He was That's great. [00:17:00] The motion is that that the house 193 progress? Um uh I will, uh, order. Order The member having been named, I will report progress, uh, for the speaker's role. [00:17:30] It is, um it is quite clear that at this point in proceedings, the Chairman of Committee should report progress. The house is Mr Speaker, the chairman of committees. Mr. Speaker, um, I have, um, moved to report progress so that I can advise you uh, that under [00:18:00] standing order 193. I have been obliged, uh, to name a member, uh, namely the member for, uh, for a sequence of events, uh, during which he repeatedly challenged the authority of the chair, uh, and left me with no alternative but to move under speaker's rule in 193193. I if I require any assistance on this matter, I will call for [00:18:30] it. No members no doubt have taken the opportunity to familiarise themselves with the contents of standing order 193. And I would draw to their attention, in particular at the last three lines. And the speaker shall on motion being made there upon put the same question without [00:19:00] amendment or debate, as if the defence had been committed in the house itself. Now, there is no provision under standing order for the chairman, uh, for the speaker to do any other single thing. If members are in any doubt about that, they should read that standing order. [00:19:30] So, in accordance with the requirement of that standing order 193, I will call on the, uh, point of order, the honourable Vin Young. Mr Speaker I would point out that the the House in committee as a whole has been debating a very difficult proposal put to the committee. Let me finish, Mr Speaker. [00:20:00] I would just before the member speak because we deal with a very serious matter. I would remember remind the member that when he raises a point of order that in the ultimate it is asking for some action or some relief to be given by the chair now, I would remind him to raise a spurious point of order is highly disorder that is a point of order [00:20:30] which cannot or has not. The purpose for which I've stated in mind now have drawn the House's attention to the limitations of the speaker's ability in this matter that the requirements of standing orders are absolute and admit no departure from the procedure laid down. So as long as the member is fully aware of that and that he is not involved [00:21:00] in a spurious point of order and that he will end up his point of order with ending as a result of this Mr Speaker, I request this remedy which will make the point of order totally in order then I would, uh I'll ask him to continue. Thank you. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The point I wish to make Mr Speaker in reference to standing order 193 is in the heading of the standing [00:21:30] order, and that is the member may be suspended after being named. It does not say, Mr Speaker, that the member shall be suspended after being named. Now, Mr Speaker, I believe that that being the case, you have an element of discretion in your hand that can take account of the situation from which the naming arose. [00:22:00] And consider that before you suspend, move to, uh, to suspend my colleague the member for yes, I. I will hit Mr Buxton to draw your attention to the incidents that ran into this and I moved. I moved under 289 standing order 289 and I'd refer [00:22:30] the speaker to that ruling. Order! Order! I am sorry to interrupt the honourable gentleman, but I must warn him that for there is no provision at all for the speaker to review the decisions that have been made by the chairman and committee so that that if there are matters in which there may be dispute as to whether the correct procedural matter is concerned, then it is in the authority of the [00:23:00] chair to review the procedure of the committee, of which the chairman happens to be part in light of the greater responsibility of the House. But in the actual conduct of the Proceedings of the committee, the chairman is in exactly the same position and has the same authority as the speaker in the House. And there is no way and is specifically disallowed under our standing orders and speaker's rulings for the speaker [00:23:30] to review in any way. I decision that has been taken by the chairman in matters of this account. Now, having stated that and explain the position, I will allow the member to raise his point of order. But he should bear that in mind. And from the statement that I have said that a spurious point of order is a bit self disorderly. Mr. Speaker, I have no intention of any spurious [00:24:00] point of order. I would like to draw your attention to the standing orders 289 and I moved that we report, uh, the reporter programme to take a speaker's ruling. The speaker had the chairman had no alternative but to then call the speaker if you read it carefully. 289 and I'll read it for the speaker to for his to revive his [00:24:30] memory. A motion may be made during the proceedings of a committee of the whole house that the chairman report progress in order to obtain. The speaker's ruling on some question raised there in such a motion shall be put forth with without amendment or debate now, having moved it and that was the start of the sequence, the chairman proceeded as if the committee was still in place. I would argue that [00:25:00] this house and the the moment that was moved the chairman had no further business in the chair but to call the speaker for the ruling on an absolutely different matter which I wanted to be resolved. And I have a perfect right for my point of order to be dealt with first. Yes, uh, I do take cognizance of the matter that the member has raised that there was a motion before the house [00:25:30] that the er chairman report progress in order to obtain a speaker's ruling. And of that I have no knowledge. It has not been reported to me. But if that were so, and I'm quite prepared to accept that it was so that matter has still to be resolved by the committee. And of that, I have yet no knowledge. But if a disorder arose because the committee is still master of its own [00:26:00] destiny until that motion has been put and passed by the house, the mere putting of the motion does not involve the recall of the speaker. It is a motion and big emotion. It must be moved by the house and passed by the house. Like any other motion, there is nothing in standing orders. To say that that is not is any different from any other motion [00:26:30] now. That being so, then a question of disorder apparently arose from the committee's chairman's report. Before that motion should had been put, therefore, the committee was still in control of its own affairs and a matter of disorder takes precedence over all other [00:27:00] matters, and that at the moment, is the matter which the chairman has reported to me a matter of disorder. And if the committee decides and it is free to decide or not to decide that after returning to the committee that the House should in from committee, seek the ruling of the chair on another matter. Then that is the committee later to decide. Yes, [00:27:30] Mr Previ. Mr. Speaker, I move that John Banks, the member for Ware. A point of order. I'm sorry. I thought the member was raising a point of order. I beg pardon, but a point of order and a point of order must take precedence. Two points that I would like to pick up. One already raised by the member for ma matter, Mr Speaker. And And And it is an I raise it in the form [00:28:00] of a question to you, sir. What if the first part of a two part sequence of events leads, which the first of which is unresolved leads to the suspension or the naming of a member? I don't see how we can separate them out. But, Mr Speaker, my question is, can we might I now refer to the the standing order 193 which you are directly second part [00:28:30] required to administer, So that is subtitled Member may be suspended after being named. Now that leaves a question to be answered May, Whereas they're in the text of the standing order, it says the commit. I'm sorry, the chairman shall forthwith the speaker shall and so on. I believe so. The standing order, in fact, is deficient. If the subtitle [00:29:00] to it has, as the operative verb may, when in the text of it says shall now the question before the house is not shall he be named, But maybe. And in arriving at an answer to that, should we not take into account what preceded his being named? Particularly if, in the opinion of the committee, the matter, for whatever reason, might not have been [00:29:30] handled judiciously. Uh, there's no difficulty about this at all. Uh, first of all, it's not a question a member may be named. It the member may be suspended. The process of suspending the process of naming is one of the steps to be taken in suspending a member. Now, the doubt that may exist is not anything to do with the text of Standing Order 193. [00:30:00] The doubt that exists is whether the house will sustain that motion because it is not a decision of the chair. It is not a decision of the chairman of committees. It's not a decision of the speaker as it is on other occasions of suspending. But on this occasion it's a decision of the house. And no 1 may prejudge what the decision of the house will be [00:30:30] and therefore, quite properly, that of a member having been named the ER. Standing Order says that he may be suspended and that is where the element of doubt sets in. That yes, the honourable Mr Pre Mr. Speaker, I move that John Banks and the member for Wanga be suspended from the service of the house. The question is that the motion be agreed. Those [00:31:00] who are of that opinion will say those who are of country opinion will say no. The eyes have it. Yes, Division called for. The eyes will go to the right. The nose will go to the left. The tellers for the eyes are, uh miss dot Cullen and Fran Wilde and the tellers for the nose are Mr McKinnon and Mr McClay seats. [00:31:30] The question is that the motion be agreed to. The eyes are 44. The nos are 31. Mr. Banks will be suspended from the service of the house for the next 24 hours. I order. Order, Order the member. [00:32:00] Minute the Speaker. Order! Order! What do you think of that farm water. I declare the house in committee on the homosexual law Reform. [00:32:30] The point of order. The part of the House committee. Yes, Mr Freelander. Mr. Speaker, you may recall, when the chairman of committees was, in fact reporting back the last matter which we the house has now dealt with and is now dismissed with, uh that the matter which led to that being that event arising was the fact that the member, for, uh, matter matter informed or have a matter reported [00:33:00] back or ask you to rule or order for you to be called back? No, I have no knowledge of that matter. Except what has been reported to me by the member for Mama, that if it is the the committee's intention to pursue that matter, I have no doubt that I will hear about it by the appropriate means laid down by the orders of this house. I declare the House in Committee on the homosexual law reform [00:33:30] Be up and down. Uh, order. Order the House committee on the Homosexual Law Reform bill. A point of order, Mr LAX. [00:34:00] I ask under standing order 289 that we report a progress to take a speaker's ruling. Uh, the question is that we do report that I do report progress in order to seek the speaker's ruling. Um, order question is the motion be agreed to in favour? Say I to the contrary. Know the eyes have it. I will report progress to seek the speaker's ruling. [00:34:30] The house is resin. Uh, Mr Speaker I. I have been asked to report progress and to seek your ruling on a matter that has arisen in the committee consideration of the instruction which was left with the committee by the House. That it be an instruction to the committee of the whole that the homosexual law reform bill may be considered part by part now, sir, in [00:35:00] the course of the, uh, of the discussion on the instruction that was received by the committee, the point was raised that in the past, the matter that is before us has been dealt with by leave, whereas, uh on a motion from the member in charge of the bill, the committee proceeded to a debate on the motion that the bill should be debated part by part. Several members have raised objection to that [00:35:30] procedure on the basis that it does not conform with precedent. Uh, other members have pointed out that as recently as with the GST legislation, that that is the form in which the bill in which a bill that can be divided into parts may be dealt with by the committee. Uh, so, sir, it was thought to be advisable that you be recalled, uh, so that the matter could be determined both in terms of, uh, recent precedent and the past practise [00:36:00] of the House. And we're seeking your ruling, sir, as to whether or not the procedure that we have adopted in the debate, which is to take the instruction and considered by way of a motion moved in the committee, um, to proceed in that way to determine whether or not the bill shall be considered part by part. Yes, well, it's not difficult, I think, to arrive at what is the tradition of the house. [00:36:30] And as I call the speaker, then surely I should be able to give a little background on it. Certainly if the member wishes which is the speaker. I was unaware of it on his speak. Well, the position, Mr Speaker, it is a point of order. Uh, Mr Laxton, the instruction. The committee [00:37:00] has a very narrow brief. It deals with the short title. It deals clause by clause. It deals with amendments. It can take an instruction from the house. It was an instruction from the house moved in. Hansard number 64 page 8254 that it'd be an instruction to the committee of the whole house on the home sexual law reform bill that it may consider the bill part by part. [00:37:30] It was not a specific motion that it will deal with the bill part by part. It may now the When that was raised, the Chairman of committee said yes. Uh, it is a decision now of the this committee of the whole as to whether it would deal with it part by part and the promoter of the bill Then moved a motion that it be dealt part by part. It is my contention [00:38:00] that in the committee stage. It is not a debatable issue. It is not one that is divides the committee of the whole. It is rather one that is, by leave of the committee that that proceeding take place. And if leave is given, then, uh, it needs the full support of every member of the house. The whole idea of having an instruction for the committee by the House is that it [00:38:30] can be done on the majority vote of the House. But when it comes for a decision at the committee stage, it must be taken by leave and have the concurrence of every member of this house that is part of this democratic process and because I believe that this will start a series of motions that are taken that are not within the bounds of the committee as a whole. I believed it was of such importance that I should call the speaker back to have a ruling so that we know in future whether [00:39:00] such motions can be moved at any time during any debate in the committee stages. Speaking to the order speaker, if I could refer you to McGee pages 251 252 which I think deals with this matter adequately. It's noted in this. An instruction to a committee of the whole house is an abstract motion and goes on to sow a few lines. Further down. An instruction to the committee of the whole house must be permissive. Only [00:39:30] it gives the committee power to do something. It does not direct it to act in a certain way and goes on to explain why that explain why that is so and further over on page 252 refers specifically on the debate on an instruction is restricted to the subject matter of the motion and must not extend to the general principles or objects of the bill. In other words, sir, one has a motion in the house, which is a permissive motion. That motion [00:40:00] is then moved at the appropriate time in this case to deal with the bill part by part and therefore move after the consideration of the short title, and that motion is itself debatable. Now, of course, the leave of the committee could be taken at the time that one has finished the short title, and leave could be refused But that does not preempt the possibility then of the motion being moved and the motion being debated and the motion being voted on by the committee of the whole [00:40:30] because the crucial point made in page 251 of the key is the committee of the whole House consists of all the members of the House. And it will be absurd for the members in the House to bind themselves irrevocably to something in committee. In contrast, the controlling select committees of which all members of the House are not members. Mr. Speaker, it might be helpful because I was present in the house when this particular proceeding commenced. If I outlined to you the [00:41:00] sequence of events that actually arose Well, now, with due respect, I would draw your attention to the fact that the authority of the speaker to which is sought in this motion to give a ruling, is solely on the question of the interpretation of standing orders, which is on the statement in front of me is appears to be, uh, uninfluenced by the events which occurred in the committee. [00:41:30] The principles that are involved in which the speaker so the speaker may not give a ruling at all. He may not give a ruling on the particular event that occurred in the committee. They are solely within the control of the chairman I. I realise that entirely. Mr Speaker and I certainly seek no ruling on the events themselves. They are passed. They were not challenged at the time. And indeed, they are not relevant to the discussion other than the fact that they put the discussion on the interpretation of standing orders into context so that you're not being asked to rule [00:42:00] in some vacuum, Mr Speaker, What in fact happened in this particular case was that as we moved past the Clause One short title, which the committee had voted on and agreed to, we then proceeded Mr Speaker, to consider whether or not the committee would in fact deal with the bill part by part in accordance with the permissive but certainly not mandatory instruction from the house. And M, Mr Chairman first sought leave, which was [00:42:30] obviously denied as the events suggest. Now, Mr Speaker, at that stage it is my It would have been my submission, perhaps that that was where the matter ended. But My suggestion to you, Mr Speaker, is that it is only a matter for leave and not one for vote, which may in fact be passed only by a majority with a minority, in fact, dissenting. Now, Mr Speaker, it's my suggestion that the proper course of action would be for the speaker [00:43:00] for the chairman simply to seek leave if it is objected to, then at that stage, there is no alternative for the committee other than to proceed to deal with the bill in the manner prescribed for by president Book Speaker's rulings on Page 34 6. An instruction to the committee is an abstract motion, not an amendment to the motion to go into committee on the bill. It is not mandatory. [00:43:30] It merely gives the committee power if it thinks it consider and bring it into the bill, the matters referred to in the instruction. Now that appears to be the situation that the committee is empowered to deal with it, part by part of it so wishes by the instruction from the house. Now there are way two ways in which the [00:44:00] wishes of the committee may be sought. One is the easy simple way by taking lead and where everyone is unanimous. The wishes of the committee are without dispute in that way, and it proceeds. But that is not the only way in which the wishes of the committee may be sought. The wishes of the committee may be sought by means of a motion so that the committee on its decides by its numbers [00:44:30] what the intentions of the committee is. And after all, there's nothing novel in that, because that is what the committee does. Er, when it passes any clause or any part of the bill, uh, which subs becomes part of its report back to the house. That's a normal procedure for the committee to determine what the committee's wish is and where, in this case, it was decided that the committee should [00:45:00] seek a resolution of what its opinion was by means of a motion then that is entirely in accordance with the customary procedures of this house. Uh, it's a motion like any other motion before the committee. Further point of order, Mr McClean, Mr. Speaker arising from your ruling and accepting it entirely, uh, to assist the committee when it, uh, considers the bill uh, either clause by clause or part by part, as the as [00:45:30] the case may be, uh, is it a fact that, having agreed initially to considering the bill part by part, the committee could subsequently, on a motion moved by any member agree to consider, say, a particular and complex part clause by clause? In other words, does that one motion preclude a subsequent motion that might involve a clause by clause, consideration either of the remainder of the bill or a particular part [00:46:00] that McGee becomes an authority again? The this raises this raises the question of what is the wish of the committee. If the committee in its wisdom, has decided that the whole of its proceedings [00:46:30] shall be part by part, then that the committee is bound by that decision now, if it chooses to. If someone chooses to test that on a substance occasion, it could only be done by Le. But if the committee, again in its wisdom, wants to avoid prejudging a situation which has not yet had time to consider and does [00:47:00] not want to put itself into a position where it's judging the whole part of it part by part, the committee is quite entitled to say that in this instance, the first part will be considered as one unit as a part, and that subsequently the second part may be dealt with on the same way or may be done clause by clause that the instruction from the House leaves this matter entirely [00:47:30] in the hands of the committee. And the way in which the committee exercises its wisdom on this matter is entirely in its hands on part one. It does not bind it, provided the motion is worded such way that every person who votes on it is knows exactly what he is voting on. But if the motion is that part one, be now considered, I think would be an appropriate way of putting it that part one be now considered [00:48:00] by the committee, then that only deals with the problem of part one that only deals with the problem of part one that has not dealt with the problem of Part two, and that can be dealt with by subsequent motions or decisions of the committee to draw the matter up. But we are breaking new ground, Mr Speaker, with what is, I think, a very important issue, particularly on this bill, which is, of course, a conscience vote issue and therefore not of the nature of legislation that we normally deal with part by part. [00:48:30] Can I take it from what you have said, sir, that if, as is the case in this particular instance, a general motion that the bill be considered by part by part is passed by the committee that subsequently it is still open for a particular part. First of all, for leave to be sought. And if that is denied, then a motion to be moved to deal with a say part three or four on a clause [00:49:00] by clause basis? No, no, I'm sorry if a general motion, uh, to consider the whole bill part by part is taken, then the house at the committee is bound by that. But if the committee does not wish to be bound by that, it may do it in a manner that I previously suggested, and so that that deals solely with the matter in front of it. Then when it comes to [00:49:30] whatever other parts there is, the committee has not bound itself as to how that will be dealt with and the matter can be subsequently resolved concerning that part. But, uh And if, uh, this motion is like any other motion, if in actual fact, the motion before the house is that the whole bill will be, uh, considered by part part by part, then it's competent on any member to amend it. [00:50:00] And he may amend it by saying that only clause, uh, only part one be so considered. And that part to be left for further consideration by the committee. Uh, it's the committee is entirely in its own hands to to do that, I declare the House in Committee on the Homosexual Law reform bill. [00:50:30] Now, where were we? And the House Committee on the Homosexual Law Reform bill considers the question that in accordance with the power conferred on this committee by way of instruction, the homosexual law reform bill be considered part by part. Um, Mr [00:51:00] Concern about the principle that's being suggested to the committee on what is essentially a conscience issue. What has been moved by the member in the chair, the junior government whip is that a conscience belt here of nine clauses nine relatively [00:51:30] short, but very, very important causes be dealt with part by part. Now, Mr Chairman, I know of no precedent, no pre, where a conscience issue has been put to this parliament to be dealt with in this way. Indeed, I think it's becoming very, very clear that what is supposed to be a move to compress the debate [00:52:00] on this bill is in fact being aborted because members won't wear it. Members will not wear it. It would have been better. It would have been better to have allowed the committee to address each of the nine principles and the clauses adequately, as members had wished, rather than to try and impose on the committee the weight of what essentially, is the government to compress [00:52:30] the debate into a shorter period of time. Mr. Chairman, whether or not the bill is amended and I think the speaker has given a pretty clear indication of something which the committee will consider and that is that the proposal before the committee be amended will amendment be put to it that at least part [00:53:00] one be dealt with separately because that where that is where the greater debate will be and then if the government's going to impose its weight of numbers on the committee that maybe part two would be dealt with, uh, as a part I. I wouldn't have any great objection to that because, in fact, Part two only comprises two clauses, two clauses. So if the government wants to deal with Part two as [00:53:30] a single path and compress the two clauses into a single debate, then let us use its muscle in that way. But for goodness sake, let Part one be dealt with as parliament expect where the principles are debated one by one and members are given an adequate opportunity to express deeply held convictions on what is one of the most significant moral issues [00:54:00] that this government has put before Parliament in its short period of office. Mr. Chairman, I oppose the motion that this conscience issue be dealt with in this way because I believe it offends the principles that Parliament expects to be upheld in dealing with important and significant issues of a conscience nature [00:54:30] by the member for Wellington Central that the discussion on the bill be taken in parts. We have wasted an enormous amount of time tonight discussing this motion, and I suggest, sir, that the time has been wasted because the member for Hauraki has gone back on the agreement, which he came to with the member for Wellington Central on the 20th of November last year, in which he agreed that the [00:55:00] bill would be taken in. Sir. And I believe we are entitled to an explanation from the member for Hauraki, and I invite him to rise next. As to why he has changed his mind, sir, because on the 20th of November he moved the motion in this house that the bill be taken in part, and he spoke further to that motion and told the house that he was attempting to facilitate the chair so that the matters could be taken together. And he ended [00:55:30] his speech by saying that he believed the best result would be achieved in the house if the debate was taken in parts as he himself moved. Now, sir, how in three months do you go from actually proposing something like that to then standing up in this house tonight and saying that a motion almost identical to the one that he moved is now a denial of democracy and railroading through the bill and I want to know what curious things have gone on in his mind, [00:56:00] sir. Which have led him to this conclusion Exactly the opposite of what he thought 3. 5 months ago. Why has he changed his mind, sir? Sir, I believe there are members of the opposition, two of whom at least have spoken, who are very embarrassed by the filibustering which is going on on this matter tonight. Because Sir of opposition members are doing their job. They would want to be putting up private members bills of their own on issues of [00:56:30] concern to their constituency of a wide ranging kind. And I believe, sir, that common sense among most members of the opposition will tell them that they are wasting their time and time, which should be spent on their constituents' concerns and having some of their colleagues carrying on in this way. And they are doing a disservice to to the people who elected them if they allow this bill to dominate private members business for the best [00:57:00] part of the rest of the session of this Parliament. Sir, When the member for North Shore quite rightly pointed out that up to 47 Wednesdays. Sitting time could be spent debating the bill if it was taken clause by clause, as some members opposite are now suggesting the member for Rey, uh, kept calling, Why not? Well, sir, when the debate gets to such an illogical, irrational, emotional level as that, it is almost impossible [00:57:30] to deal with that kind of member. I agree, sir, with the member for wait to who pointed out that we have already spent an exhaustive amount of time on this bill. Every argument which could have been advanced has been Is, is it proper for a member to refer to another in the context of events which have already been dealt with, sir, by Mr [00:58:00] Speaker, I would assume I'm not saying I know or am right. I would assume that that is not valid material in a procedure, particularly in a procedural matter of the type we are discussing. Speaking to the point of order, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Chairman, I would assume that even though the member for is no longer with us, that I am entitled to rebut points that he made when he was speaking in the house only a short time ago. [00:58:30] Order Order, Order The honour. Any member of the House. Order, Order, Order and nothing to do with the IT. At the present time, any member in the House is entitled to rebut any argument that has been used as part of the debate on the motion before the House. However it is not. Of course, uh, no member has any right, of course, [00:59:00] to refer to a ruling that has been already given whether by Mr Speaker or by, uh, the chairman of the, uh, the chairman of the committee. But I think the, uh, I as I have picked it up so far, I, uh I might mention the member for, uh, I my mind didn't, uh, probably click onto the quickly onto the matter that he may have raised, but I'd ask that now that, uh, Helen Clark might continue. Thank you, Mr Chairman. I was referring to the non [00:59:30] arguments advanced by the member for ponga who seem to take a great deal of pleasure in suggesting that 47 Wednesdays would be properly spent in debating this bill caused by clause. And I find no substance in that view that he advanced, sir. Again, I repeat, the member for Wait Tora put up a very convincing argument for saying that the House had spent an exhaustive amount of time and was, in fact exhausted with debating this measure. We have heard every argument which could be advanced on every [01:00:00] aspect of the bill, and I believe that a from the death watch of the members for whatever, uh, Papa, uh, and a few others in the car and, sir, that most members opposite have the common sense to know that we should move on and have private members days on Wednesdays used for more constructive purposes than filibustering on a bill like this for 47 Wednesdays, The honourable Mr Wellington. [01:00:30] Um, the fallacy and the argument put forward by the member from Mount Albert is, of course, this bill has nothing to do with the National Party. It was a bill brought into the house by a Labour member, I believe. Well, I believe the the Labour member for Wellington Central and vehement, vehemently supported by Labour members in the main area now. So it is not our argument it it is not an argument of the National Party's choice, [01:01:00] but it having been started There are some of us who will finish it. They say No, no, no, no, no. You listen. You listen, we will finish it. Because that it is for those sorts of reasons that we have been sent here Now. Sir, at the time that the committee was suspended earlier, I had asked the chairman if he would be good enough and he undertook to say do to explain the first paragraph of an unsigned [01:01:30] three pages and I shall read them the following proposals put forward in the light of the complexity and potential conflicts arising from SAPS proposed to the bill to facilitate consideration of the bill and its various amendments. Mr. Chairman, what I think the committee needs to know is who put who were parties to the proposal. I mean, it obviously wasn't the chairman alone. When did they meet? [01:02:00] When did they meet? And why should a meat two and I quote facilitate consideration of complexities and potential conflicts? We do that in here, and we should do it in slow time. The member from Mount Albert said, Well, our constituents are concerned about other things. [01:02:30] Mr. Chairman, 800,000. The member for Hamilton west would understand this. 800,000 people, And that is a figure I accept. 800,000 people said we do not really wish this measure to proceed, let alone have it ran through the house. Now we're going back in time a bit. But, Mr Chairman, I do seek answers to those questions [01:03:00] that the honourable Mr Bass question me. Now we are We are what we're discussing here a, uh, a procedural matter. And we have been on it since just after 25 to 9. [01:03:30] Order Come. You should. I do not want to have to take the opportunity of putting anybody else out of the chamber, but I find that that remark made just now about another any other member of the house for whoever is directed very offensive. I'm look overlooking at the present time, and I'll remind the house that when I've been called to go make a judgement or make a decision in the house, every member will sit silently unless [01:04:00] I call on them. Now, we've been debating this matter now for nearly two hours. I think that we've, uh, pretty well covered the, uh uh all the, uh what? That we've covered the pretty well the arguments that are involved in this matter. Um, I do think that the member for Papakura did give us some fresh matters and asked some questions just now, [01:04:30] I am prepared to allow the debate to continue. Uh, just, uh, we'll see just what transpires from now, but we don't want any repetition. I think that the house, the committee, is, uh, uh, eager to resolve this one way or the other. But, uh, at this point, I will, uh, I, I will not take the closure. Yes, Mr Kidd. Speaker. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I've listened carefully to a number of the contributions in this debate, and I think it's worth the House reflecting [01:05:00] that when it comes to conscience matters, today's majority can easily find itself to tomorrow's minority. And I think, sir, that members in conscience issues before this house should stay their hand at taking procedures, which will tend to irritate the minority on any particular cause or to give the appearance [01:05:30] of a weight of numbers. Uh, bringing a matter to a conclusion to suit the, uh, the point of view of the weight of numbers. Uh, so perhaps It's a case of people may find over time in this chamber that they will be done as they did. And so whilst the government, on issues of its policy, can use its weight of numbers, uh, and carry through from its sheer power the, uh, [01:06:00] the legislative programme it brings before the house, I would earnestly commend to the house that that is not appropriate in conscience. Matters particularly, sir, uh, in matters which go as they do in this bill without canvassing the merits, I think I could be permitted to say go to the basic fundamentals indeed, to the very fabric of our society. Say no more on the issues than that. [01:06:30] What? But what that leads me to say, sir, that there are perhaps conscience matters and conscience matters. Uh, and I don't think there would be much quarrel across the dividing lines on this issue, that it is indeed one of those most fundamental matters going to the fabric of society. And so, sir, I would stress again and urge upon members of the house that maybe by staying their hand, they will not necessarily prolong [01:07:00] the debate. I am not persuaded, sir, by the clever, uh, arithmeticians here that it might be 47 Wednesdays or another assertion that somewhere between 1987 and 1991 we'll get out of it. I believe the common sense of this house is substantially greater than that. Uh and I know, sir, from considerable experience in chairing select committees on highly contentious bills that if you only let those who feel strongly [01:07:30] have a go, uh, it soon reaches a point where the matters resolve themselves quite quickly. And some who served with me on controversial bills that were fiercely opposed uh, will know how tidily things can be brought together. But the mere exertion of pressure inappropriately tends to prolong the matter in the end. Because, sir, if the matter is to be taken in parts And of course, we're only in effect talking about [01:08:00] part one because there's only one operative clause in part two. Then, sir, I would suggest that it was virtuous without prejudging the matter. If it comes to question, it's virtually inconceivable that the speaker could take a closure on part one until the debate was exhausted. Just as in earlier stages, sir, this showed quite wisely in a number of indications to the House, and I felt it was a special lesson to be taken from those indications to the House that [01:08:30] it was not appropriate to bring down the the hammer on this type of thing. Now, if we take the House were to be advised by the indications that Mr Speaker has given us and by that essential fact that today's majority might find themselves tomorrow's minority in conscience matter, I think they would be well advised. Mr Chairman, I think that it's important to reply to some of the implications made by the member for Marlborough. [01:09:00] My understanding of what he said just now was that the government was intending to use weight of numbers to move this. I want to assure the House and the country that the government is not voting as a government on this issue. In fact, it is a conscience bill, and so is this particular proposal. And in fact, uh, the house knows that I can recall at least two members of the opposition so far this evening who have voted, who have rather spoken for [01:09:30] the proposition that I have put before the House. But the other thing I think is important that members recall that this is not simply, um, a proposal to save time of the house. Although I believe that the 31 hours which it would give for part one is adequate, and I think it would save some time. It would give us 31 hours of debate. It is also an attempt to try to have some coherent and intelligent debate on the subject, which I do not believe we would get [01:10:00] if we took it in the narrow within the narrow range permitted by each of the amendments and each of the clauses because they are interrelated. And I would repeat again the arguments that we before the committee went before the House went into the committee stage. Uh, the same arguments apply. Now it's the same motion, [01:10:30] uh, and the member for at that stage accepted them that for the sake of having a decent debate, it is actually better to take the part as a whole than clause by clause, Mr Jones. Call it the I. I take objection. The member from Cal has spoken, and I also understand sue that you're required to call members who have not yet spoken. [01:11:00] I understand that my colleague from Southern Maori has not yet spoken to this clause and therefore asked that you call her. That's not the point. I got the call, I. I only heard the call of the member for I. I usually move from, uh, from position to position. I think the member for Southern Maori is quite, uh I give way to the honourable lady. Pleased to do so. No, no, I call on Mr Jones. I heard I. I only heard Mr Jones the only the only one that, uh, the [01:11:30] only voice that I heard and I called on. I knew in your call to speak. Mr Chairman, it's quite obvious to me that this is a ploy to hurry this bill through. And I take root of objection to the Minister of Health, the member for to come in here who hasn't shown too much disposition to do too much about the AIDS question in this country. Not too much to come in here and move a closure just because it suits him not to have some embarrassing questions. When he's spending 7. 6 million as the as the New South [01:12:00] Wales parliament is doing on AIDS, and they need to have some concern about it because they've got 69 cases there and 42 deaths. Point of order that I'm just using a debating point of rebuttal, Mr Chairman. Point of order, Mr Chairman I, I would ask you to call the member back to the debate in question, which is whether or not the the bill should be taken. In part, I don't believe the material as well introduced. Is it all relevant? Well, I think the member has just begun to [01:12:30] open up. And if he's not, please, Water, water. That's enough of that, uh, noise. I think he was just developing his argument that, uh I think the point was made by the member for Wellington Central was it sounds, uh, reasonable. I would ask the member for Invercargill to concentrate on the issue before us as to indeed whether, uh, we should take this path by pack. I was thinking [01:13:00] of going to argue, and I shall telegraph my intention that some native call which I'm entitled to two more, uh, to to move an amendment later on that that part one be taken clause by clause and that part two be taken part as a part. As far as I'm concerned, I came here to talk to seven clauses seven clauses in part one, all of which are very relevant to this bill. And I'm getting a little bit concerned that the way things are going at the number of members, we're getting suspended and kicked out of this house [01:13:30] and we've already got. We've already got three of our members overseas at the moment, won't be due back for three weeks, and I'm sure the member and I'm sure the member for Wellington Central is well aware, is well aware that the four members overseas, three of them are violently opposed to this bill and only one for it. And she can count the same in ours. And now, now that's one of That's one of the reasons that she's keen to get it through in the next three weeks, and that reason is Mr Chairman. Another reason is that she's been given the lobbying list. [01:14:00] She has the lobbying list of the state of the poll given by the homosexual law people as of January this year, and I've got it here in front of me. Yes, you've got it. I'm quite sure you've got it. And it. And I can tell you now that the voting is that they've got about 23 hard core members who will vote for everything in this bill. Irrespective, I just find the material now being used in this part of the debate. Uh, not not relevant to the issue, Mr Chairman. I believe it's very relevant. It's [01:14:30] triggering off the reasons why the member for Wellington Central is anxious to get this bill through part by part in which I'm only allowed to debate the one part, including seven causes four times, whereas in fact I want to speak to those seven clauses at least one seat. So even if I only speak to each clause once which it was only my intention to do, I'm being deprived of three calls on relevant causes, which particularly what the minister of health ought to be concerned about with changing sodomy under the act to anal intercourse. [01:15:00] And if he's minister of Health and can tell me what's the difference between sodomy and Aal Inter Claus? I'd like to know when he's talking about 16 year olds being allowed to legally sodomise each other and 12 year olds in these our most relevant things and to come into this house and talk about presidents with the goods and services tax caused by Clause dozens and dozens of clauses which this house would agree to. So we had a debate on this in 74. It's now 86. Surely [01:15:30] it's not too much to allow that this house when we're in the committee stages. It's not the fault of this house that this bill took so long to get to this stage. But all I can say is that the public of New Zealand will not stand by idly and see it pushed through when they know quite well that at the moment, if this bill is pushed through in the next couple of weeks that there's at least four or five members who would be voting against the bill that aren't here, and she's not going to tell me that she doesn't know that and as far as [01:16:00] I'm concerned, I intend to move at a future date telegraph That will take part one clause by clause and part two, which, quite frankly, isn't going to get through, which has got two parts in it. But there are seven causes in this bill and every single one of them. I don't believe I go along with the member for Marlborough that the only the people that have got something relevant to them would get up and debate each clause. I've got no intention of bating the seven clauses, but I'm sticking for my right to do so. And I'm [01:16:30] not having a jack, a jacked up lobby from the socialist benches who passed this at their conference. We know that they've got to do it as a matter of policy. We know it's a matter of policy for their party or irrespective fact, that it's a conscience vote. Therefore, it's a conscience vote. Why is the why is this junior whip pushing it? Why is the chairman of the committee sitting there now? They did enough damage in that committee by ignoring [01:17:00] by ignoring the signatures of 835,000 New Zealanders, and I can assure him that if this bill is passed, it's still not the end of it. They'd be let let this house have a fair go tonight and next Wednesday night and the following Wednesday. And if they think they're going to push it through next Wednesday, they've got another thing coming. I'm gonna telegraph the fact I want to move an amendment to this particular motion. That part one be taken in separate clauses. And that part two be taken part by part. [01:17:30] Uh, Mrs, uh, honourable Mr Sullivan. Mr. Chairman, if and when the previous speaker moves the amendment, I would be pleased to second it because I have no doubt that part one should in fact, be discussed clause by clause not only because of the vast implications of these [01:18:00] clauses individually but because of the totally significant changes that would be signalled to our society if collectively they are passed, we must discuss these clauses in detail. I want to remind members of the house that 80% of [01:18:30] this bill is actually part of part one. In the several clauses of their vast implications for our society. For instance, I remind the house that in ClA, Clause three is concerned with indecency with boys 11 years and under. Now that is something [01:19:00] of such concern to the vast majority of New Zealanders. We members we, the members of this house must discuss that that particular subject relating to that age range now that is only one of the seven clauses in part one, that is Clause three. In fact, it is itself [01:19:30] a very major clause with many paths. Part of it relates to indecency with boys 13, 12, 13, 14 and 15. And when you consider the significance of boys of that age, the time of their development within those years, that demands the right to be discussed in detail. [01:20:00] In fact, collectively taken collectively, the first part in its several clauses seeks to decriminalise consensual acts in such a manner that, by implication, these various parts of Part one imply that such acts are quite [01:20:30] normal and natural and therefore socially and morally permissible. Mr. Chairman, that is a major change in the attitudes and the fabric and the values and the ethics of the society, and deserves the most serious concern of members of this house. Most serious because of [01:21:00] the major and dramatic change, for we all know that at the moment there is in fact no law in New Zealand, which makes it a crime to be a homosexual there is no law. The status of homosexuality is not itself defined as criminal. That is the present position. But [01:21:30] the various clauses in part one change all that so that it is taken as acceptable behaviour. Now that takes it vastly further than it has been and has ever been. In fact, it will take it further than most countries have by way of legislation. So I must demand the [01:22:00] right to express my concern, especially representing the people that I do. And when I look at the part, which, uh, in one cause of these first clauses in Part one where I can see that part, which considers it to be a defence to a charge under the section relating to indecency with boys between 12 and 16, [01:22:30] that if it can be proven that the boy consented now when it concerns the the people I represent, I know that can be construed more readily than it might be by those in that group in any other ethnic group in this country of ours. I am concerned at what can be construed and I want to debate it. [01:23:00] Richard no, the question be now put. The question has been before the committee previously. That is that the question be now put. Um, on that occasion, it was a judge that the arguments had been pretty well rehearsed. Uh, as they relate to this pretty narrow consideration. And, uh, I would be I would be inclined to accept the the motion. I'll I'll hear [01:23:30] the, uh, the member on a point of order. Mr. Bird, I just want to draw to your attention that the member has foreshadowed the amendment, which, uh, which has been tabled and the substance of the amendment really has not been adequately dealt with by way of debate. I just want you to draw that to your attention so that it is taken into consideration in judging the whether the closure should be accepted. [01:24:00] Yes. I don't want to cut off the amendment, which I believe has now been tabled. Um, is it in proper form? Has it been in second? Oh, I see. It's in the process of being tabled. Well, um, that being so I think that we should allow that a that amendment to be properly, uh, worded and, uh, duly tabled. Um, the, uh the question before the house at the moment is the homosexual law reform [01:24:30] bill be considered part by part, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I move an amendment to the motion before the house that the words part by part be deleted of the motion. And it now read that in accordance with the power power con on this committee, by way of instruction, the homosexual law reform will be considered clause by clause. [01:25:00] And a speaking time would be strictly in accordance with standing orders. The order the member who has moved that uh uh, a amendment be good enough to repeat it so that it can be copied at the table. Uh, I'd also require the member to table his written amendment. Duly moved. Moved. It has been tabled, sir. [01:25:30] So I move by Way of amendment shut up order. So I move by way of amendment to the motion before the house that the words part by part be deleted and that the motion now read that in accordance with the power conferred on this committee, by a way of instruction, the homosexual law reform bill be considered clause by clause [01:26:00] of part one, and that speaking times be strictly in accordance with standing orders. Can I have that in writing? I think as well um, I would have to rule that the amendment that has been tabled is a negative of the of the motion that is before the committee. And I therefore cannot accept [01:26:30] that that amendment a point of order, Mr. Norman Jane, I accept your ruling, but I refer to the fact that the original motion referred to parts both to the whole bill, that to be taken part by part, that included part one and two. That, uh, my colleague's motion only refers to part one. Therefore, it could hardly be a direct negative of the whole motion, because he he's he's inferring that part two be taken as a full part and that only part one be taken, cause by cause [01:27:00] he did specifically mention part one only point of order. Mr. Speaking to the point of order chair, perhaps draw your attention to the fact that part two of the bill will not be affected by the by the, um the motion that I have put in the sense that there is only one clause that will be debatable anyway, and and in fact, this is a negation of the original. Under those circumstances, I can appreciate the, [01:27:30] uh if if you speaking to the honourable chair, my my thoughts go back to the, uh, decision by the speaker tonight and announcing his decision. I don't want to bring that into the debate, but he did suggest that it was competent for the committee to amend the motion so that only one part be dealt with in this way. Uh, and he invited. He invited the committee to think about that. This is exactly what the committee has done. Yes, I can, uh, I can concur [01:28:00] with the, uh, with the situation which, um, the member for Franklin has described, which is that there is an amendment which can be moved and is confident that it should be moved. But an amendment in the form that would be appropriate has not so far been tabled. And that's the difficulty. All that we have in front of us is a text, which is, uh, in its detail, Um, a negation of the motion now before the house. And that's the difficulty that I have. And, uh, unless, [01:28:30] uh, the chair can, uh, pretty soon receive from from the sponsors of the amendment. Um, something which is consistent with the with the standing orders on the subject. Then we will proceed. Mr. Chairman, I referred you to the.

IRN: 926
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ATL URL: 
TITLE: Parliament: Committee of the Whole House - Homosexual Law Reform Bill (26 March 1986) - part 2
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VOICES: George Gair; John Banks; Merv Wellington; Norman Jones
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Fran Wilde; Geoffrey Palmer; George Gair; Graeme Lee; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Jim McLay; John Banks; John Luxton; Merv Wellington; Michael Cullen; Norman Jones; Parliament buildings; Paul East; Philip Woollaston; Robert Muldoon; Trevor Mallard; Venn Young; Wellington; equality; homosexual; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; human rights; law; politics
DATE: 2 April 1986
YEAR: 1986
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from parts of the Committee of the Whole House during the Homosexual Law Reform Bill, 26 March 1986 (part 2 of 2).
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: You've already ignored. You've already ignored a petition of 835,000 signatures and you've done that deliberately you've now curtailed. This debate curtailed my speaking time. I'm telling you now I personally will go into the electorate of every member of this house who votes for this bill at 16 and campaign against next selection. I personally will do it. And if it's the last thing I do, if it's the only thing I do and accomplish in this house in the 11 years I've been [00:00:30] here, that to me will be sufficient because I am telling you now. I'm not talking about the God people and the Christians, God save us from them. I'm talking about the average normal New Zealander, the father of the families, the guys out there in the workshop whose signed that anti homosexual law petition by the thousands and you've been conned by these people by the news media by everybody to say that there's 10% 20% of the population. We know it's 2% and I'm not going to talk about AIDS. All I'm gonna say we're talking about 57,000 people [00:01:00] in this country already who could have the virus. 20% of them will get the full AIDS condition and 20 per and 80% of those who get the full age condition will die and what you're doing, you're doing that to the people of this country in the name of the honourable George Gere. The amendment, which stands in my name and is set out in supplementary order paper number 70. And the essence of this is to change the, uh, those relative, uh, relevant passages [00:01:30] in clause three, clause four. And clause five of Part one is where the expression 16 years appears to one of 18 years Now, sir, in moving this amendment, I readily recognise that there's no magic in any particular age. But I would suggest that 18 in the circumstances of the environment in which this is being debated not only in this chamber but throughout the country is a preferable [00:02:00] age to 16. Those who would argue 20 any any age, whatever it might be, is an arbitrary age. It is an arbitrary age. Uh, those who would argue in favour of 20 I would suggest, are arguing for an age that is pitched so high that it will not resolve the problem, and it will come back to Parliament next year or the year after. Those who argue in favour of 16, I believe, want the whole loaf, the whole loaf with the icing on it. And I do believe that if [00:02:30] in fact the house were of a mind to pass a bill with the age of 16, there would inevitably be a counter reaction. And we would have amendments or a legislation pressing for change in the next year or two. What I am seeking, Mr Chairman, in proposing 18, is quite honestly, a middle course with all the imperfections that go with trying to find the middle course. I realise there are some some complications [00:03:00] that this raises, and I realise that there is no there is no a point of order. Doctor. Mr Chairman. There is a long established convention in this house that members on the crossbenchers do not interject. We've had a continual stream of interjections during the speech from a member, the on and I. I would like the honourable member on his feet to be given the chance to speak without those interjections. No no necessity to speak at the point of what a member, as ever said. And it is a clear, clear under [00:03:30] convention that members on the left of the chair and the crossbenchers do not interject on each other. If they've been doing so, they will refrain. The honourable George Gere, Mr Chairman, Uh, as I say, there is no magic about 18 years, and I make no pretence that there is. I accept. I accept the fact that one is entitled to vote at the age of 18 years. One is entitled to, in fact, marry. Providing the parental consent applies before the age of 18. 1 is not yet entitled to drink below the age of 20 years. [00:04:00] There are a number of inconsistencies we have built into this age business in the law. But in the circumstances of this bill, I plead with the House either not to reject the bill or to reject it in its totality because are just as unreasonably defying the reality that this bill offends many people. So what we should be doing, sir, what we should be doing is trying [00:04:30] to find an honest middle course, and I propose the of 18 because I believe the house should have the choice of this age. I freely confess that there's no magic about the age of 18, but those who are 18 in times of general warfare have been presumed old enough to fight for their country. Those who are 18 this house is determined by previous legislation are old enough to vote and decide who should govern [00:05:00] this country. And I believe, sir, I believe, sir, despite the problem, the technical problem that is raised and acknowledged in the explanatory note that this would mean that in the case of anal intercourse in a heterosexual relationship the present well, there is no age at the moment. There is no age it would not. It would in fact, create an age of 18, and one could well say, this is This produces an anomaly. [00:05:30] I would humbly suggest that this anomaly is small compared with the anomalies that will be created if we choose another course. In the passage of this legislation, an amendment stands in the name of the honourable Stan. Roger, Mr Banks, that the honourable Stan Roger doesn't want to speak in this debate, but, uh, he's got his amendment here and, uh, I'll be opposing [00:06:00] that as well as I'll oppose every amendment. But that's before the house, addressing clauses 34, and five of part one of this bill and I'll be I'll be opposing that members there, that member's amendment, whatever it is, if it supports in any shape or form the ability for 16 year old boys to sodomise each other. Now. I just heard an incredible speech from my old friend, the member for North Shore on his on his amendment, Mr Chairman, and [00:06:30] give me the opportunity because this is very important in this Parliament after all, Mr Chairman, and he suggests that his amendment is the right amendment because, he says, society has been terribly divided over this issue, and that's correct. And 13,800 people in have sent me down here sent me down here to stand up in this chamber, not outside in this chamber to say that 18 years is wrong. 20 years is wrong. 40 50 99 If you like, it's all wrong because 13,800 [00:07:00] people in the seat of Ware have said legalising sodomy between males is wrong. So go down there and tell them So that's what I'm telling the member for North Geor tonight that yes, it has divided society. He is 100% correct. Divided it this way. The majority of the population in particular in my elector of do not want this bill to legalise [00:07:30] sodomy at any age at any age. That's what they've told me, and I am sure that the vast majority of the members who support that who support that would agree they don't want it at any age. It's no good saying so. Society is divided on the issue, so let's give them a compromise and make it 18 because they're old enough to go and fight wars at 18, so they should be old enough to sodomise each other at 18. What a nonsense! [00:08:00] For heaven's sake, wake up! Who in New Zealand really wants this bill even given the polls, Mr Chairman, that 2% of the population only indulge in homosexual activity? Who wants this? Why the obscene has to ram through this amendment the so-called, the anti defiance of reality amendment of 18 [00:08:30] years. Who wants it? I haven't had anyone write to me in recent days and say it's so urgent it must be rammed through Parliament at every opportunity. I haven't had anyone that says to me that anyone who doesn't support the amendment to 18 or the amendment to 20 should be hurled out of Parliament because they are not in line with the sponsor of the bill. No one's saying that. So Mr Chairman, 835,000 New Zealanders [00:09:00] have told me they don't want any part of this bill, not 20 years, not 18 years and certainly not 16 years. And my fear is that next year, when this bill goes onto the statute book as law, there will be an amendment probably probably wheeled in here by the member for Wellington Central supporting 15 years or 14 years. [00:09:30] What is the difference between a 15 year old boy and a 16 year old boy or an 18 year old boy or a 19 year old boy? I say that this is an evil bill, and this part of the bill is very filthy. The local member, the labour member for Wellington Central, who has sponsored this bill, is in charge of it in the committee stages. It is not her [00:10:00] right to interject in a strident, let alone loud voice, strident voice using the microphone before you by way of interjection upon the member for Ware. Now you conveniently looked the other way when I got to my seat member for Wellington, the of the bill in order seat. Mr Banks? Yeah. This is a further point of order, Mr Chairman, [00:10:30] and I'll add to it. I'm well, I'm sure you are. I raised a legitimate point of order when I was a minister for six years sitting in that chair during the committee stages of the same point of order. Point of order. You haven't ruled on it. His seat. You have not ruled the member. Will. Would you rule on the point of order? The member will his seat. Will you rule? I will rule. The member has no point of order, Mr Banks. That [00:11:00] is this a fresh point of order? I would I would caution maybe we the seat for a moment while I explain a Matt. You hear me out to him? Order. I will explain a matter of order to the member to this effect that he has already trifled with the chair by raising under the guise of a fresh point of order the same point of order. If he does so again, then he will be subject to the standing orders of this house and this community. [00:11:30] Frankly, that Wellington bother me terribly except to say, Mr Chairman, that five minutes ago in this debate the member for Hawke's Bay who is seated three away from me raised a point of order which you heard with courtesy which you ruled upon and you asked me to desist from interjecting. I suggest to you the same with the member who has the advantage of the withdraw and apologise. He is trifling with the chair. Mr Wellington, [00:12:00] what do you require? The member will withdraw an apology. You explain for what? Try and bring with the chair. In what way? The member is trifling with the chair. Further If he does not instantly withdraw and apologise, he will invite further harsh. You have to adjudicate on the member will withdraw and apologise or you will be required to leave the chamber. And you haven't ruled on the point of order. I, I have ruled on the point of order the member has raised in what manner? He is trifling with the chair in raising [00:12:30] and apologise. You are with the committee because you will adjudicate on by the government of the chamber. You will not adjudicate on points of order raised by members up to leave the chamber. I beg your pardon? The member is called upon now to leave the chamber. Right. [00:13:00] The member is inviting more serious action. I call on the sergeant at arms to escort the member for Papakura from the chamber. We I have already done so. No, no, no, no, no. Mr. Mr Chairman, Point of order. The honourable Mr McClean. Mr. Chairman, I wasn't present in the chamber. I heard that the exchange commence on the air. And I simply ask, sir, whether in the circumstances [00:13:30] or if this isn't a matter that has escalated to a point where as a result of the action that is about to be taken, sir, for the second time in a week, a member is going to be excluded from the chamber on what is not a party vote bill and therefore a member is going to be denied the opportunity to vote on a matter of considerable importance to all of our constituents. Now, sir, I realise that [00:14:00] the feelings in this chamber can inevitably in certain circumstances, reach a stage where incidents such as this arise and it behoves all of us. And I mean that as parliamentarians, to try and avoid that situation if it is at all possible and the circumstances. Sarah, I wonder if this is one of these matters where we can't retrace our steps just a little bit and see whether, in fact the matter can in fact be dealt with satisfactorily. Speaking to the point of order, the honourable right honourable Geoffrey Palmer, unlike the leader [00:14:30] of the opposition, I was in the house when these events occurred. There can, in my submission, be no excuse for the behaviour of the member for Papakura in the occasion, not once, but several times he deliberately flouted the authority of the chair. But there is no doubt at all that the leader of the opposition is mistaken in one matter. As I understood, Mr Chairman, your ruling You were invoking standing order [00:15:00] 1 91 where the speaker or chairman of committees may order any member whose conduct is highly disorderly to withdraw immediately from the house. You were not suggesting that the member be named and suspended under standing order 1 93. Now, obviously, that course was open to you. But as I understood it, it was standing order 1 91 that you were invoking. And that does not place any great difficulty in the face of the member for papakura voting on the measure. [00:15:30] Well, I'm happy to confirm that point. The member may have other wishes to No, no, no, sir, I really appreciate that the action you sought to take is understanding order 191 rather than the procedure that was followed previously. And I do not in any way challenge. If that is finally your wish, sir, you challenge your right to do that? What I am seeking, sir, is an attempt. Because I believe, as I said earlier, that it behoves all of us in this chamber to ensure that if at all possible, members have the right to exercise [00:16:00] a vote, particularly in the conscience vote circumstances that we have. And I'm wondering whether in those circumstances why I intervened before you actually had the sergeant of arms come to deal with the matter whether this isn't a matter that we might be able to retrace a few steps on and see whether, in fact, we can get all of us back on the rails again, because I think that would be the wish of members on both sides. Now we can stand on technicalities as to what happens. What is more important is that if we follow through the course of action, that is [00:16:30] foreshadowed at the end of the day, for whatever reason, a member will be denied the opportunity to vote on behalf of his constituents. Speaking to the point to the right, Jeffrey Palmer, the speaker, the point that the leader of the opposition made in his second intervention was precisely the same as the one he made in the first. He has not sought to excuse the conduct. It was deliberate, clear and blatant defiance of the chair, and indeed it in the bill of this character, it's most important [00:17:00] that it ought to be preserved in this house. It cannot be preserved in the face of behaviour like that. I think that I'm very happy indeed to No, I don't. I don't wish to hear anybody any further on this because the member will resume his seat. The Mem, the member for Papakura, the member for Papakura will not be heard on this point, he will resume his seat. I, I have a point of order and and And it's been raised by the member for by the by the leader of the opposition. I must deal with it, [00:17:30] uh, what he's asked for. And I'd be happy to come to, uh, to other points of order once once this has been dealt with. But the but the particular point that the leader of the opposition raised was whether or not we could retrace our steps. Uh, and, uh, ensure thereby that, uh, while while preserving, uh, due order that first of all, uh, some assurance will be given about the members voting rights. And I'm very happy indeed [00:18:00] to give an assurance that the member will not be denied the opportunity to vote under the standing order that I'm in the process of invoking on the member. I hope that that does indeed satisfy the point that, uh, that the leader of the opposition has raised Now the now. No, I'm sorry. No. On the on the on the point that the member seeks to raise the member for Papakura has been asked to [00:18:30] withdraw and apologise. Carry on. Uh, we were fresh. Point of order. A fresh point of order, Mr. Banks. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if you could help me and give me some guidance. I've been looking through Speaker's ruling and standing orders, and I can't find out where where I can get some information. Mr. Chairman, In the interest of fairness and decorum and democracy in this [00:19:00] very important debate, how do we go about having the chairman of committees replaced by the deputy chairman of committee? The member is out of order. The member is, uh that simply is not a question of order. And the member is not entitled to raise it. The question is that, uh, a further point of order, Mr. Lee, Mr Chairman of my my point of order relates to, in fact, the speech timing in the house. Can you form the house? Indeed, whether it's your intention to signal [00:19:30] the by bell at the end of every five minute speech, sir, some speakers here are not sure as to indeed the time that they have had. And I wonder if you could confirm that there will be a bell at every five minutes. Yes, I can confirm that, Mr. Banks. Uh, Mr Chairman, how many minutes have I taken? Mr. Banks has one minute. One minute of what? One minute to his bill. What is it, a five minute bill or what? [00:20:00] The member has one minute, Mr Chairman. You know, I get very, very cross when I'm speaking to this very, very reserve seat. The member has one minute of speaking time remaining for the first call. Is that the Thank you, Mr Speaker. Thank you very much. We're very, very cross over a lot of matters in this bill in particular, the way the Labour Party is railroading this private members bill through this [00:20:30] house and the way minority members and opponents of this bill are being treated in this house and in this committee. But it's not going to stop us from speaking at every opportunity against the provisions of this bill. And even if we are thrown out of this parliament, we'll come back fighting because the majority of New Zealanders don't want it, Don't want it. And no wonder members get frustrated at the chairmanship and this [00:21:00] committee with what is happening here, the member will withdraw and apologise for that reflection on the chair. Mr Banks, Me, ira and apologise, Ma, uh, I stand to, uh, move the supplementary order paper and the amendment in my name, and I So do Mr Chairman, This is a relatively simple amendment, and [00:21:30] it's one which I believe, if considered carefully by members of the house, will in fact, get the unanimous support of the house. Well, I think the member is premature. We are still debating the, uh uh, the questions that have been introduced in supplementary order papers relating to clause three. Then we have to deal because we're obliged to move through. Then we have to deal with with those which are grouped under the heading of clause four. When, when? When [00:22:00] we come to the point of the part that we are dealing with that the member wishes to move amendments to I will I will invite him to move that amendment a point of order, Mr. Uh, East. Mr. Chairman, is it your intention to try and move through? Uh, a paragraph by paragraph through the paper that you have circulated because, um uh, or or our members free when they take the call. Now that we're dealing with with it as one part to, uh, to traverse, [00:22:30] uh, amendments that have been suggested previously, or are on the order paper to come up at a later date? Uh, no. The the member. Um, I appreciate the member raising the point because it gives an opportunity to clarify just where we are. The the The point that we have reached is that having proposed the question that the that part one stand part Mr. Gere, the honourable George Gere has moved the amendment, which stands in his name to clause three. [00:23:00] That is the amendment which affects the age of consent and proposes 18 in substitution for 16 in clause three. Now, that is the that is the question. Now, before the committee, Does this not apply through all the clauses that were, uh, that were listed, uh, as we're taking it part by part. Uh, clause 34 and five are all affected by exactly the same proposals. [00:23:30] So is this not, uh, or was I not? I thought I was under the impression that I was moving it in respect of all three clauses, and I actually mentioned that so that when each clause is formally put, uh, the amendment is in fact, before the committee of the whole speaking to the point of order, Dr C, I understood that you were suggesting to the committee I don't think [00:24:00] we ever, if you like to leave the committee or the understanding of the Committee that the amendments were not to be actually moved at the time that the proposed of the amendment stood but were to be foreshadowed and then to be moved at the end. And this would enable all members of the house to speak to any amendment and to any part in any part of part one, any clause or any sub clause in part one. Otherwise, I think so. If we adopt [00:24:30] what is the strict procedure of moving the amendment and then speaking to the amendment, we are going to get ourselves in some difficulty in terms of the form of the debate, and I think it would be much more helpful for the House if we followed the suggestion which I think was on the original paper that we simply foreshadow the amendments rather than move them. And then members of the committee are free to speak across the whole of Part one. As they see well, it it's in the hands of the committee. The government [00:25:00] senior whip is correct. This would make make it possible, sir, for the sequence of amendments to be placed finally in terms of the order of age, with the amendment moved by the member for Island Bay to my amendment as being the First Amendment to be put and giving the House the opportunity of addressing the question of the age of 20 and then depending on whether or not that was was carried or not [00:25:30] if it were not carried, uh, my own amendment would then be addressed at the question of 18 and the event of that being defeated. It would be 16, and the House would have a a logical sequence in which to address the question of age and I. I believe the member for Saint Kilda is perfectly correct in the way in which he suggested it should be handled. I I'm sure that, uh, the honourable in my point throughout the evening, the matters were never clarified. [00:26:00] The matters were not clear in the minds of members of the committee. We had a three page type written paper. We've had it some time. And at the time that it was placed before us, I asked two questions. Who put it together and when was it put together? And even after all that, Mr Chairman, the committee is still in a stage of confusion. I mean, Hamilton, you hear the member of the West is the North Sea and so on. [00:26:30] Come on, we can clarify this matter very quickly if the member will Well, we've been waiting two weeks at least. Clarify. Clarify the matter for the member. I understand that the member for Saint Kilda, supported by the member for North Shore, has a suggestion for the committee for for the Committee to conduct its way through the various amendments. Now, the amend the proposal that he has, [00:27:00] uh is a proposal which I understand, was originally uh, given circulation of the paper produced in my name so that it's a question now of whether or not that is acceptable to the Committee for the Procedure that has been outlined by the member for Saint Kilda and supported by the member for North Shore. For that procedure to be adopted, it is a matter for leave and if there's any objection to it, then it can't be proceeded with. So I will now call on members of the committee to indicate whether there is [00:27:30] any dissent from that course of action. Is there any dissent? There is dissent. In that case, we will not proceed in that way. We, uh we are. We are now, as as we were with the amendment which had been moved by the honourable George Gere. A point of order. He's been dissent. Can we have it clear? Does that mean that now a speech may only be to the amendment that has been moved? And I think [00:28:00] that is going to cause considerable difficulty for members if they are only to have four. I'm not sure that all members of the house understood that by, um dissenting they Now, if the standing orders are strictly applied, I would suspect are only able to speak to a particular amendment. And as there are more than four amendments, there may be some amendments that members wish to speak on that they will not be able to speak on if they only [00:28:30] have four speaking opportunities. And I just want to make sure that all members, I think I'm correct. And that assertion am I Mr chairman of the committee. They will be able to speak, even though there are only even though there are many more than four amendments, they will be able to speak on the whole range of the amendments and won't be tied strictly to speaking to the amendment as it's moved, because I would have thought that a strict interpretation would require them to do that and that some of the members may lose the opportunity of speaking over the whole range [00:29:00] of the first part of the bill. Perhaps I could, speaking to the point of order, the honour of being young, Mr Chairman, it's absolutely essential that you clarify the proceedings that the House is following. The house has determined, sir, that we will take the bill part by part now. It's been quite properly pointed out by my colleague, the member for if then we are required within that proceeding to [00:29:30] consider the, um, the bill amendment to that part by amendment to that part, then it will become really an untenable situation for members who want to speak in a wide ranging manner over the whole party. I would suggest to you, Mr Speaker, that the course that we are to follow, having decided to take it part by part, is to be able to speak to amendments that are foreshadowed, [00:30:00] all of which we have notice of speak to any of them. It is up to those members whether or not they they speak to them themselves at this stage, or whether they move them formally at the end of proceedings when we're ready to deal with the whole part. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Perhaps it would be helpful if I explain to the House that all of the people who had all of the members who had previously tabled SOPS or circulated SOPS did actually [00:30:30] agree on a procedure which would have suited them. And they were all of the people from both sides of the house, regardless of their point of view. On this bill, there was there was some discussion which amounted to um, a a general consensus, that we should have a full debate on the part covering any of the subjects encompassed by the amendments or the, uh, what is in the bill now? And the clauses members [00:31:00] foreshadowing their amendments so that other members could also speak about those particular proposals, but that the amendments would not be formal, be moved until the end, when they would be done in the sequence as outlined on your paper. And that would make sense because the House would then be able to have the sort of debate which the member for North Shore and Rotorua and ST Kilda have suggested we have and which I certainly think we need. And it would not be restrictive. But [00:31:30] it would enable in the end the votes to take place in an orderly sequence. And that was, in fact, the intention of the House. I suggest when the House moved that we consider the bill part by part rather than clause by clause. If we're going to consider it, uh, with the restrictions that you have now suggested, Mr Chairman, I think we're we're back to a clause by clause consideration, not a part by part consideration. Well, let me just make it clear before we proceed, and I'm happy to hear the member, but it's not a it's not a procedure that I have suggested. [00:32:00] It is a procedure that is set out in standing orders that we will proceed along, Um, unless there is, unless there is an agreement to do otherwise among the members of the committee. That's that's really where we are. The honourable Mr Wellington. We are, in effect, back where we were two weeks ago, when the committee was considering the paper. Under this time, it's not the signature, but under the name of the chairman of the committee, and I questioned then [00:32:30] who were the members of parliament who were party to what the member for Wellington Central now calls a consensus. There has been a little bit of clarification on that in in that the member for Wellington Central has said, Well, it's those members who wish to move an amendment. Now there are not many of those Mr Chairman and indeed one of the prime movers. The minister of Labour is absent from the house tonight and I mention that only in passing as a private member he is not here to move his amendment. Now the second point, Mr Speaker is [00:33:00] that the course of actions are suggested and I appreciate it's only a suggestion in the three page document is not, of course, incorporated in standing orders. Now, if that is the case, when there is objection to a suggested procedure, standing orders take precedence and therefore we should. Mr. Chairman, in my view, we should consider the measures or measure before us clause by force. Now, just add a quick PS to [00:33:30] all that we have had tonight a very important document placed on our bill boxes by the minister of defence. Now I would have thought that of all at least recent documents, given what has stated within it power one act as a caution to this house if it deals with the security of the country and against all that, I suggest that we deal with the measure more slowly clause [00:34:00] by clause, and that the standing orders of the house, um, bind us all I. I think it is important to hear any member who who does have a contribution to make to this because it will finally settle how we deal with this important measure in its part by part stage Mr Chairman, Doctor Cullen. I want to suggest to the committee that the member for and and others who who are suggesting that we abide [00:34:30] by the standing orders and not take leave to adopt the procedure that I suggested earlier will in fact possibly be defeating their own ends in terms of the nature of the debate on part one I, I wish members would listen because it's it's not my purpose in this to do anything which way constrains the debate. But the fact is, I have a very mixed ancestry, but Greek is not part of it. I think [00:35:00] the point I'm making is that if we stick to the standing orders, the debate from now on will be on the amendment moved by the member for North Shore. Now, if members take multiple calls on that particular amendment, then the possibility arises at some stage. After many hours of debate on that amendment, that a closure motion may be put and may be accepted, [00:35:30] and if that motion is then passed, there will be no further debate on part one at all apart from that single amendment, because all other questions then before the house on part one will have to be put. And what I'm suggesting to and and others is that in order that the issues can be properly traversed. It is sensible that any amendments are foreshadowed [00:36:00] and put at the end so that members are not constrained in what they're speaking to in part one so that they can cover the entire range of issues. The amendments within part one. I'm suggesting to them that they think very carefully before they proceed down the track, they're going on because I don't think it will lead to what they actually want to do. Mr. Williston, which the member for ST Kilda has made, um, I've [00:36:30] in the time in which this particular discussions are going on, have been looking through standing orders and Speaker's rulings and confined no no explicit guidance in standing orders. As to the procedure the committee should follow when it decides to consider a bill part by part, Uh, it seems to me that the best method would be for the committee to reflect, first of all, on what the situation would be if there were no amendments, because then it seems to be quite clear that a member having the call could in 15 minute [00:37:00] speech or several five minute speeches if they were granted, cover all the clauses in that path. So it seems to me, therefore, that if those members who have foreshadowed by way of supplementary order paper amendments propose not to move those amendments until late in the debate, then there is no question of needing leave of the House in order to allow members to range over all the amendments. Uh, it seems to me that that is the proper course to follow. That leave is in fact not required and that the amendments [00:37:30] be formally moved and put at the end of the debate on part one. Mr Lee, the debate simply underlines the fact that the amendments to the House were correct and that we have made the wrong decision. And we're now at the expected situation because we are really in a vice group now, sir, the amendments that have been moved, uh, in our position it would seem to me that therefore, whilst we [00:38:00] may move clause by clause and direction from the chair, that people speaking may have the right to speak wider than the Immediate Context Act clause because the amendments have been foreshadowed, they are in the position of each member and correctly. You should ask for any further amendments at this point in time before we proceed such that any further member of the house may then be taken into account by the house now, sir, by proceeding clause by clause but allowing [00:38:30] in the context of the limited debate entirely wrong. But within the context of the present limited debate that would allow people not only to address the clause in a chronological manner, but also to take in account the various amendments that we have in our position. Speaking to the point of order, the right honourable Deputy Mr. Speaker, the House has decided to consider this bill part by part. Well, the House has decided to do that. It wasn't [00:39:00] a decision of the chair and whether the minority who voted against that accepted or not that is the fact of the matter at the moment. And no amount of interjection from the member for Bonga is going to change that fact. The government decided nothing. Now, Mr Speaker, we are in the situation where if people opposite actually appreciate the procedural consequences of what they have produced, let it be on their own heads because the result is [00:39:30] going to be extremely serious and quite the opposite of the one that they wish to bring about. As long as they understand that, then the house can proceed. On the course of debating at length the amendment moved by the member for North Shore and debating nothing else. And that is what will happen. And I don't believe that is what they want. But that is the consequence of what they have produced. This is the Mr Laxton, [00:40:00] Uh, as far as this area is concerned, the decision has been made that it be taken part by part. It has normally been the practise that all the person that has got the First Amendment in the part gets the gets the first call. After that, it has generally been the practise that any member can speak across the part and foreshadow the type of amendment that he would wish to talk to and take four calls and speak on any matter [00:40:30] in that part that he wishes to. Now the chairman is the full judge of what is relevant. And, uh, he is able to judge. And after all, we're talking of a part and every amendment in that part, Uh, has, uh, is part of the whole of that part. And for that reason, it had been a past practise to take the calls that are necessary. Foreshadow further amendments. But you can deal with the amendment that's before the house. If the committee [00:41:00] proceeds quickly, that amendment will be put. There'll be time for the next amendment if a closure is taken. Of course, people have foreshadowed what has happened, and they must be put through in a ripple form came, uh, sir Robert Muldoon, Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that we're not really in the difficulty that's been foreshadowed by some of those who've spoken, including the leader of the House who seems to have the idea that this is somehow [00:41:30] a party matter. Uh, talking about the members opposite bringing something on their own heads. Uh, Mr uh uh, Chairman, it seems to me that if the chair takes account of the fact that in considering this part, we have in front of us a considerable number of important issues and because of that does not [00:42:00] readily accept the closure until all of those issues have been canvassed, we have no real difficulty. The only difficulty that arises is if it is not realised that we have a number of important issues in front of us and a closure is accepted if you like in the way it might normally be on a different measure that we would find [00:42:30] that we haven't properly canvassed all the options that are going to come in the form of amendments. So what I'm really saying is I think, Mr Chairman, that if we proceed normally from where we are and you act in that fashion, we won't have too much trouble. The right honourable Jeffrey Palmer, the defect and the position put by the right honourable member for Tamaki is very substantial, and I think it should be drawn to your attention. [00:43:00] It is, in fact, if amendments are moved, the only things that are relevant to that on those five minute calls are the contents of the amendments and nothing else. And it is not possible, in fact, er to have therefore a wide ranging debate of the sort that is desired. I appreciate the desire for that wide ranging debate. It seems to me that that wide ranging debate is the desire. If members want to bring that about, they will foreshadow their amendments and not [00:43:30] move them. It's it's as simple as that. And I think if if if the house adheres to that practise, there will be no trouble, right? Honourable Sir Robert Mulder, the leader of the House, has commented on what I said. Uh, I see no difficulty arising from this. If members take the First Amendment and in debating it, say I am opposed to this because I believe that such and [00:44:00] such an amendment moved by someone else is preferable. That speaker is entirely within the rules of the House and quite capable of discussing the alternative merits of if you like, two different ages. There is no difficulty arising at that point at all, because essentially, those are the amendments at which we will be looking. And I believe that on the First Amendment it is entirely possible [00:44:30] to discuss alternative ages in saying that a member does not support the First Amendment because he or she supports a different age for the following reasons. And I just go that far because I think the leader of the house is wrong in saying what he has just said. And I see no difficulty at all providing you do not readily accept a closure until all of those members who wish [00:45:00] to participate in the debate and support different points of view have the opportunity of doing so. Uh, yes. Uh, Dr Cullen, I think the problem with what the right honourable member for Tamaki says is that the amendment, which is before the House, is a relatively narrow amendment. It deals simply with the age of consent. It is, for example, possible that a member would support the age of consent at 16 and support the member for island bays amendment relating [00:45:30] to defence forces or support the amendment of the member for North Shore, but oppose the member for Island Bay Amendment there. There is nothing in the member of North Shores amendment in the member of North Shores amendment, which contains within it grounds for debate relating, say, to the member for island bays amendment or the member for Hamilton West amendment relating to the mentally retarded, or indeed, to a number of other amendments before the house. Indeed, the only other amendment that it clearly [00:46:00] relates to is that from the member for Dunedin North relating to an age of consent at 20. So the entire debate must become focused within that area of the age of consent. Now, what we are simply suggesting is that to avoid that, we simply have all amendments being foreshadowed, including that from the member from North Shore, and then the entire debate can proceed on a broad basis across part one. And I really do ask members to [00:46:30] take a different view, uh, to myself and a number of others on the contents of the bill simply to consider that matter of convenience. Indeed, in terms of debate Yes, Mr Norman James was already for I've completed one of my four chances. Now there's an amendment for the house, and if we stick strictly to the standing orders of the debate and I speak to that, I've got to confine myself to that particular amendment. I I'm I'm inclined to accept the [00:47:00] view of the leader of the House, except there's only one thing about that. If I If we forego out for five minutes speaking to the part one as a whole, and and and and and even though the amendments are only foreshadowed when the amendments are finally then put and every member has has a part from the mover, and if he's exceeded his four speeches, he won't be able to put it either, that it means, substantively, I cannot speak to the amendments unless I do so [00:47:30] in a foreshadowed way. Now that's the only flaw in your argument, the right honourable Geoffrey Palmer. As I understand the position, it would be this that every member in the house has four calls. Every member could devote those calls it either to the substance of the part or any of the amendments or all of them or some of them. But there would only be a total of four calls. Then, at the conclusion of the debate, all the amendments would be put prior [00:48:00] to the part being put. There would be no debate at the time that they were put. That's my understanding of the position, the point of order, yes, to the point of order. The only difficulty we have in following the course that now seems to be the common intention of members of the House uh, is the fact that, uh, on your invitation the member for North Shore moved his amendment. [00:48:30] Now, if the member for North Shore could be given leave to withdraw the moving of the amendment and just leave it merely as notice that the amendment is to be moved, then we can proceed with a wide ranging debate. And I suggest we follow that course. Well, it's in the hands of the of the committee. I understand there will be two options before the committee. Uh, we, uh, adopt the procedure that we already speaking, Uh, Mr uh, that the member for man has commended to us [00:49:00] that's been adopted in the past, where we consider the the question that the, um the part one stand part that members then foreshadow their amendments but not actually move them. Uh, this gives the opportunity then for debate across the whole of the range of issues that are canvassed, uh, under part one. By contrast, we could adopt the other quest, the other option. And that is a what has been described as a clause by clause consideration the [00:49:30] one that we are embarked on. In fact, because of the uh presence before the committee of the of the, uh, amendment to Clause three. That's that's been moved by the member for North Shore. Now the disadvantages of each course of action have been pointed out. Um, if we if we were to adopt the member for matter matters, uh, procedure, I think it will be incumbent upon the chair not to accept the closure motion too quickly. Um, and and that's the most important [00:50:00] point that that the Honourable Vin Young has raised as well that it would be necessary for the member for North Shore to seek the leave of the committee to withdraw the amendment, which is before it.

IRN: 899
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ATL URL: 
TITLE: Crimes Amendment Bill (1974) - second reading
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VOICES: Bill Birch; Gavin Downie; Jack Marshall; Jim Bolger; Joe Walding; Keith Holyoake; Ken Comber; Logan Sloane; Venn Young
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1970s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Barry Neels; Bill Birch; Crimes Amendment Bill (1974, Venn Young); Gavin Downie; Homosexual Law Reform Society; Jack Marshall; Jim Bolger; Joe Walding; Keith Holyoake; Ken Comber; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Logan Sloane; Parliament buildings; Venn Young; Wellington; blackmail; church; decriminalisation; equality; fear; gay; gay liberation movement; homosexual; homosexual law reform; human rights; law; lesbian; mental health; moral torture; morality; ostracisation; politics; religion
DATE: 4 July 1975
YEAR: 1975
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In 1974 Venn Young, National MP for Egmont, introduced the Crimes Amendment Bill. The Bill sought to legalise homosexual activity between consenting adults in private. The age of consent was set at 21. The Bill failed at its second reading: 34 votes against, 29 votes in favour and 24 abstentions. This recording contains part of the second reading debate in Parliament on 4 July 1975.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Because will follow if they know that their masters and tutors are indulging in these unnatural practises. And if they know that the law of the land will allow it. What effect will it have on the moral fibre of these boys? Some of them quite young. And under 21 the practises are illegal. And yet suddenly, on the morning of their 21st birthday, they can do what they like. And they are a bull which will defy evil influences [00:00:30] which are seeking to undermine the very foundation of our national character. Defy them. Do not help them. I've heard some say, and indeed the noble Earl Earl said so himself that such practises are allowed in France and in NATO countries. We're not French, and we're not other nationals. We are British. Thank God. This is, uh, some of the This is some of the thoughts of, uh, Lord Montgomery in this regard. It was my intention, Mr Speaker to read, uh, further [00:01:00] evidence that came forward, uh, to suit my case. I will admit, but I won't We the house for that because I think the subject's been covered. Uh, very amply. And I know the house is ready, I believe to vote. So finally, could I say, expressed in the simplest terms. I suggest that the issue is this Is this house or is it not to give a lead to the New Zealand people by agreeing to a bill which will have the effect of undermining the moral fibre of [00:01:30] the youth of our country? That's my feelings, Mr Speaker. Uh, right arm. I also keep Holy oak and God, I am not other men. I thought there was one small element of that in the quotation. At least the honourable member for Rodney will excuse me for I hope so. I'm sorry. Excuse me for taking that line just to speak up. The thought of homosexual acts is absolutely and repulsive [00:02:00] to me. But who am I to judge? So I'm not going to compliment the member for not fulsomely at least the member for Egmont with his carriages on. I wish he'd take his jolly bill away. I wish we never heard of it. Um, we should never hear of these quest. Wish the problems would go away. And I suppose having said that, then one has to join the others say compliment sue for [00:02:30] his courage and bringing something forward that we all wish was not brought forward and that the problem itself would simply dissolve and disappear. Pardon, however, the problem is there and from time to time these questions, whether moral, legal and emotional or whatever they are, they will arise and have public common [00:03:00] currency and be discussed and have to be and have to be settled. Two years ago, I confess quite openly. Two years ago, perhaps one year ago, one year ago, I would have voted against such a proposition for this. Today I will vote for it, seeing that homosexual acts are obnoxious to me. And I think that just about all of us or the very great majority of [00:03:30] us and then, uh my and I suppose our natural instinct is to vote against any change in the law because of the natural lash out against the law or any proposal to change the law because we don't like the the context of the subject. Uh, that that is dealt with. That's a natural emotional reaction, but I believe we must use more than that. We use judgement as far [00:04:00] as we can. Uh, and whatever logic we have. So I'm not going to at this stage of the debate, going to go over all of it. And indeed, I'll go over very few of the arguments that have been ad produced by other members for and against except except I want to say this that I am not convinced that the present sanctions in the law have achieved very much. [00:04:30] I won't say they haven't achieved anything, but I don't think they've achieved enough. They are in balance to warrant their continuation. The member for Rodney, it was that quoted a lot of figures in respect to convictions in the law and the kind of penalties that have been imposed. Um, I'm sorry I didn't listen. Listen closely enough to him before he came to that passage in his [00:05:00] speech. And, uh, I have to ask him, uh, whether I'm correct when I say I imagine. I imagine he was dealing with all the offences taken under these headings. Not with the offences in the narrow range in which this bill deals. And that is homosexual acts between consenting adults in private. After all, this law doesn't alter all the rest of them And that would have been interesting if he had [00:05:30] the figures, and I presume he had. I haven't seen them. If he had figures to show how many cases have been brought and that would be affected by this amendment to the law, yes, yes, but for all kinds of homosexual acts, not just for homosexual acts but the very narrow range which are dealt with in this proposed amendment. It [00:06:00] is fun. Well, what is the difference? The difference is is that the member for Rodney quoted figures to prove something to prove that we should not carry this amendment. He was dealing with figures that have nothing to do whatever with this amendment. That's the point I'm making, Uh, or if they had, I shouldn't say whatever, but only to a very, very small extent. I believe, Well, [00:06:30] that's natural to begin with, if they are performed in private secret, naturally not, not not. Not many are detected, although, of course, some are I. I thought the figures were misleading in that he quoted the wider field of homosexual acts committed against the law and how the courts had treated them. Uh, it was an interesting comment, but I felt it was mainly not only but mainly irrelevant [00:07:00] to this proposed amendment. Um, it I would think so, of course, that that has been mentioned by other members. Sorry, I've got a heavy Colum mentioned by other members that the very nature of the homosexual acts that we are discussing that is homosexual acts committed by males consenting males in private. Um, [00:07:30] naturally, not many of them are detected and come before the courts. And for that very reason, and the existing law has very little application of this is virtually in in effect. However, I want to speak very briefly. The main points that have determined me to vote in favour of the law have been said so often Very briefly. I repeat them. I believe there should be no difference in the treatment [00:08:00] and the law of males and females, and that has been dealt with at great length. And I say no more about it. Secondly, I asked myself, Does the present law has the present law prevented or deterred homosexual acts between between males? I would think no one can prove this, but I would think to a to some extent, but very, very mindful, [00:08:30] I would have thought the advantage here would have been so minimal that it would not weigh heavily with me, at least as against the disadvantages as against the disadvantages under the existing law. With the proposed, I ask myself with the proposed amendment, tend to increase the number of homosexual acts between males, adult males. From my experience, from [00:09:00] what I have learned and what I've heard, I doubt it. If it would, it would be only to a very, very minimal effect and indeed we could not prove that this. So I am certainly not convinced that the flood gates will be opened. Indeed, I am utterly convinced that that argument is wrong. I am impressed also by the statement [00:09:30] of the member for Mont verified by some other members of the Select committee, which took the evidence that every body, every person and every organisation giving evidence to the committee was asked this specific question. Every church, every thank you, I'm corrected. Every church was asked this specific question, or perhaps not in these [00:10:00] exact words. But in this sense, if the existing law was, as is now proposed in this amending bill, if the existing law was, as he is now proposed in this amending bill, would you be proposing and crusading to change it, to change it to what the law is at the present time and after proper thought and consideration? The member [00:10:30] and others confirmed that all the churches said no. We would not be asking for the law to be changed to what it is at the present time, with the exception of one I think small section of the Anglican Church and evangelical evangelical section a crusading a crusading section. So I think, is that is the heart and the centre core of the whole question. [00:11:00] Does it exist? Is the existing law and an A and an Aron? Are we clinging to it, or are some people clinging to it simply because it's there? If it were not there as it is, not there for females, would there be a crusade to change it today to what is now the existing sanction under our law? And certainly would not. There will not be a widespread crusade. [00:11:30] I doubt whether there would be a crusade at all if there were one. It would be, I believe, very, very minor, very very minor indeed. This to me, sir, is a very important aspect of the of the whole question. So I'm also influenced by experiences that I've had in public life in offices that I've held in this house and in this country, [00:12:00] the knowledge I have of people in quite high places. Thank you so much. And quite high places. Exercising considerable responsibility and judgement and indeed influence. But who were homosexuals or homosexually inclined Being subject to blackmail, [00:12:30] to blackmail and mental torture as a result of all that stems from that mental torture. Well, the way it affected their whole lives the relationships in their families and indeed indeed with other people have no knowledge of that. Police have no knowledge. Um, [00:13:00] please have no knowledge that what I say is correct. Yes, yes. No, no. Um I accept. I accept what the member says, and all I'm saying is that I have knowledge of it, you know, I have knowledge of it. I have personal knowledge of it, and and of the, uh of the mental torture and the spiritual torture and that these people [00:13:30] that these people went through and to the number who are still alive are, I suppose still going through. I'm not saying that they should not have some mental experience, some mental torture, uh, in this field because, as I say, right, And I said right at the outset. And I'm still of the same opinion that homosexual acts between males [00:14:00] females, for that matter as well we're talking about male is abhorrent. To me, this is an UN thing. It is to me, an unnatural thing and an abnormal thing. And so I suppose anybody experiencing this for whatever reason, whether they are born with these tendencies, whether they acquire them, whether they're forced upon them through their environment or whatever, I suppose it's a natural thing again that they will suffer some mental torture and [00:14:30] pay some price in that respect. But from the experiences that I have in the positions, which I help, uh convinced me that these people suffered two great offences. Uh, this is only something that one can use one one's own judgement on again as one as one person observing another What? What penalty should they pay? [00:15:00] And I believe that the cases that I knew know of these people suffered too great a penalty too great a mental and spiritual torture because of the fear of discovery because of the fear of publication. Indeed, because of the possibility of the exercise of the law as it exists today, that again, [00:15:30] and perhaps more than any other thing with me, uh, has decided me to persuade me to vote in favour of the amendment, I repeat again that two years ago, perhaps one year ago, I It would have been difficult to convince me to support the law. But today I do the amendment today I do support, uh, speaker, Mr Bird [00:16:00] Speaker. Like most like many members in this house on both sides, I've had very considerable difficulty in deciding whether I should support or oppose the private members bill of my colleague, the member. For like him. I have considerable compassion for the problems of the homosexual problems [00:16:30] which the homosexual and many others, including, including many highly qualified, believe that the problems are centred around the intrusion of the statutes into moral issues. Yeah, in an effort to fully understand how the Crimes Act created additional pressures on those with homosexual tendencies, [00:17:00] I joined the member for Egmont in a number of early discussions with the homosexual Law Reform Society. Like others at those discussions, I was very impressed with the ability and equality of those who were supporting homosexual law reform. But this is not an issue [00:17:30] where one can or should look at the law solely through the eyes of those directly involved. But one must rather consider, in one's own conscience the effect of changing the laws on society at large. I have found, after very long consideration [00:18:00] that I believe that homosexual behaviour is not a behaviour that I could accept as normal and all that I wish to take part in any action that would be seen to condone, encourage or even passively accept homosexual practise. And it is for that particular reason, sir, I find [00:18:30] that I am unable to support the bill. I believe that to support the bill would be seen to condone, even though passively, homosexual behaviour. So it is then, with much regret that I am unable to support the member for Edmond. I also greatly regret that there is this anomaly in the law [00:19:00] whereby action by female homosexuals in private is what it seems to be and is within the law and action by male homosexuals in private is outside the law. I take the point that has been made by the member for Egmont and many others when he raises the question that if one is not able to support his bill, then should one not be [00:19:30] promoting law or an amendment to bring female homosexuals within the Crimes Act as well? I would answer the member for Egmont in this way that I am not satisfied until society is prepared to provide more positive assistance with those with homosexual behaviour and until society is prepared [00:20:00] to concentrate more of its resources into a study of the of the inherent influences which brings about homosexuality and is prepared, prepared to do more in those important fields that I believe this law should be changed. So I also make the point that the law falls unevenly [00:20:30] on sections of society. All of us, all of us, even in this House, are capable of criminal actions. We are discouraged from doing so or becoming for taking part in criminal actions by the fact that we in doing so, would lose the respect of our family. We would lose the respect of our fellow men. And finally we are discouraged because of the [00:21:00] punish punishment itself. But the greatest deterrent of all is that in moving outside of accepted standards, we transgress the norms of society, accepted behavioural standards set up and adopted by society itself. I fully appreciate that tendencies to act outside normally accepted [00:21:30] standards also fall unevenly. Some peculiarity of our chemistry, our background, our early childhood environment makes it more difficult for some than it does for others. I fully appreciate that. However, the attitudes of the community, its leaders and, most important, the attitude of parliament itself is vital to the standards accepted [00:22:00] by society at large. It seems to me, therefore in balance, that any action seem to Condoned any action, seem to accept the homosexual homosexuality itself, can have considerable influence on the views of society at large. And it is for that reason that I am unable to support [00:22:30] the member for Egmont in his efforts to have the bill introduced and the law changed much better. I believe for society to work hard in devoting more resources to understanding the influences that bring about homosexual behaviour much better, sir, to devote our efforts to correcting something [00:23:00] which the house I believe has agreed is not a normal human situation. I regret, therefore, that I will be voting against the law. Uh, Mr Mr Speaker, I do with my colleagues in the house who can. Congratulating the member Fremont in bringing this bill before [00:23:30] the house. I think we all know that it has taken a great deal of courage to do this because we're in an area of discussion, an area of debate which it is difficult to see clear lines of action which will follow the results of this bill. I think we're all aware of the degree of concern that is expressed by all people throughout the country in this matter. [00:24:00] And I think it's equally true to say that we have no evidence to suggest that by the removing of legislation in this area in overseas countries there has been any lessening of the promiscuity which has been and is causing considerable concern. I believe it is right, and it's proper that this topic should be discussed in this house. [00:24:30] As there is increasing controversy on the subject of homosexual behaviour, we have had the anomalies pointed out to us today and last night very clearly of the situation which exists as far as the male is concerned and as far as the female is concerned, it would also be true to say it would also be true to say that we are [00:25:00] not going to in any way improve the situation as far as the male is concerned by introducing legislation against female behaviour. And I think it's also true to say that the likelihood, the likelihood of reducing the activities, the obnoxious [00:25:30] activities of a number of the groups is going to lessen with the passing of this legislation. I don't believe it will thank you. I have over a number of years in the last years in particular had many very convincing arguments for changing the law in relation to homosexual acts and while they're very convincing and they're very logical, they are to a very [00:26:00] great degree academic and largely ignore, ignore a very offensive behaviour which undoubtedly causes considerable concern in the community. I think it is true and one of the difficulties with which we are confronted is that we are able to obtain driving licences at 15. It is unlawful and illegal [00:26:30] to drive under the age of 15. It is acceptable above that. Likewise, the laws relating to drinking likewise the law as far as voting is concerned, What we are saying now, Mr Speaker, is that we are going to have an age whereby certain acts are acceptable above an age. They're unacceptable below that age. And this is one of the difficulties [00:27:00] that I find in making a decision. As far as changing this legislation's concerns, I fully appreciate the fact that the that this anomaly does exist in the law. But it is equally true to say that as has been pointed out by the member for Rodney and that is that there is no mandatory sentence attached to this as it appears [00:27:30] on the board at the moment. In other words, there is no imprisonment involved and a lot has been made of this side of the argument. But as I say, it has not been proved and shown that that is sufficient reason for change in the law. I think when we make a change in the law, we must be extremely careful. I see that has been pointed out in the in [00:28:00] this bill that everything relates to this magic age. It does appear that we don't consider that those people above that age can be influenced or can be seriously influenced. But I would suggest, Mr Speaker that they are. They are and can be seriously influenced and generally have a serious effect on the lowering of the moral standards. I think that a [00:28:30] great disservice is done to this cause by such movements as the gay liberation movement and some of their publications. And I don't believe anybody in this House would condone the material which they put out. I'm saying here particular issues of their, um of some of their branches. I'm referring in particular to one extremely offensive article, which appeared from Christchurch earlier this year. This [00:29:00] article was written by a self confessed practising homosexual, and he was glorifying the acts of the Arabs. He even went further to state that those on whom this act had been, uh, that have been acted were actually changed psychologically as a result of it. I'm quite certain in this area a lot of very serious and careful thought should be [00:29:30] given before making a move to change this legislation. I think it has also been very noticeable. While the agitation to change the bill has been going on, the act, rather for has been going on for many years. It's been evident that these groups have been parading the streets, have been putting out an increasing volume of material and literature to advance their [00:30:00] cause. But I think it is having the re reverse effect as far as the public is concerned. While I do believe that there could be a change made to the law, I am not convinced and have not been convinced from the arguments that this bill, as presented all the amendments suggested, would answer the necessary criteria which would be required to make a change [00:30:30] which would be to the advancement and in the interests of our society. For this reason, Mr Speaker, I find it impossible to support this bill while recognising the difficulties when the in the individual problems that are associated with it, I feel that the bill in its present form does not and would not do what [00:31:00] it claims to speaker. Mr Speaker. I rise late in the debate to speak briefly on this bill, sir. And like my colleague, the member for Franklin. I was involved early in the discussions with the member for Egmont, with those who sought a reform in the law. And I listen, sir, with interest to the submissions they placed before us and to the arguments they advanced, [00:31:30] I must confess that they were unable to show us or to indicate to us where the operation of the present law was repressive or in any way was being harsh on those who had a natural inclination towards homosexual acts. Sir, I state quite clearly that although I understand and sympathise with the intention of this bill, I will not be [00:32:00] voting for the second reading of this. The reasons advanced for the bill fall broadly into three main categories. As I hear one compassion, very laudable sentiment, compassion for those who are so inclined two that the law, as present written, cannot be enforced. And three that the present law permits the ost or blackmail [00:32:30] of a person so inclined Could we briefly look at those three arguments? There are many sectors in society, sir. I submit who require compassion. But they all come under the same general law we have. And we know within society those who are much more prone to violence, much more prone to violent acts. And yet they serve. Excuse [00:33:00] me? Yes. Yet they come under the general bill regarding violence in society. We, also, sir, have the question of the law been unable to be enforced. There are many laws that are extremely difficult to enforce. The simple law on theft is most probably enforced only 50% of times that theft occurs. But we do not suggest [00:33:30] that we alter the law because it is difficult to enforce that law or many others. We also then look at the question of blackmail, sir, unless the less society's attitudes towards the state of a active homosexual altars, the possibility of blackmail will not be removed by the passage of the legislation we are present debating. So this also would not be achieved if [00:34:00] we vote in favour of the bill. Those who speak sir in favour of the bill advance, But as I read there, or listen to them that they don't consider that it is a natural act. They are totally opposed to perverting the young, and they are opposed to lowering the general standards of society. Sir, I submit that there is some inconsistency, because [00:34:30] in this bill and I have waited, sir, to hear some explanation for it in this bill we are excluding from its ramifications those who are in the armed forces and those who are in police force. I submit, sir, that the passage of this legislation creates another anomaly, then that for some reason, those who are in the Army or in the [00:35:00] police are considered more likely, are more susceptible because of the because they are excluded to homosexual activities because, uh, they are excluded. The member for said they come under a different act, but they are still not permitted in private. As I read the active, they are still not permitted in private to engage in homosexual activities. I would think so, and I would [00:35:30] advance the argument that there would be probably no group as a group that would be more mature in its outlook than those two groups in society. And I wonder, sir, and I would invite someone to advance the reasons why it was considered desirable to exclude those two segments from the passage of this from the ramifications sir of this legislation. So the question that must be discussed and was discussed [00:36:00] in the committee stages. I understand from reading the evidence and also has been raised in this house, and this is the question of the definition of an adult. The bill, as originally introduced, accepted the the old standard, if we might term it that of an adult 21 years. The bill has now allowed that lower that to the age of 20 years. But as you are aware, sir, there is considerable agitation among those who support a reform [00:36:30] in the law that the age should be lowered substantially below that of 20 years. And it is advanced by way of argument that heterosexual activity is permitted at the age of 16, that you are permitted to vote at the age of 18 and that it is repressive, that in this field of sexual activity you should be restrained until the age of 20 and probably the most or the stronger arguments, the strong arguments, [00:37:00] strong arguments advanced in favour of this was from the Methodist Church's submissions or the the uh Public Questions Committee of the Methodist Church to be more accurate. And they said there is justification for reducing this age to 18 years, or alternatively, to 16 years in support of reducing the age to 16 years and the proposed amendment. It is noted that a girl of 16 years may consent to carnal knowledge with a man. It [00:37:30] is difficult to find reasons that will permit such a girl to make a decision concerning her sexual conduct with either a male or a female, but yet deny the same right and responsibility to a 16 year old male. So there are strong arguments abroad, sir, to reduce the age to 16 because that is the heterosexual age. But, sir, we must look at this question one step further. You will be aware [00:38:00] that there is strong support in the community to lowering the age in which contraceptive advice and paraphernalia can be supplied to young girls. And it is logical that if we supply this to young girls, we will have to lower the age of consent for girls to less than 16 years, and we then can advance the argument that was advanced before so we would have to lower the age of homosexual activity to a similar lower [00:38:30] age. It is clear that the reason that the bill. And I'm quite sure this is the intention of the member. For Egmont, who is moving, it has retained an age of 20 years is because he wants to be sure that a person has this strong and permanent orientation towards homosexual activities and that those of a younger age should not be attracted temporarily and then [00:39:00] finally committed to this type of action or this type this, uh, type of sexual activity. But, sir, I think that if we pass this bill, we will again be asked to reduce the age within the next few years on a continuing downward scale. And then we run into not only the armed forces, because we have a single group of males together, not only the police force, we run into the additional problems of our single sex schools [00:39:30] who would then be placed in the same position. And will we exclude those from a passage of some future legislation? Sir, I believe that the bill they were intending to correct the situation which is frankly untidy, would produce a situation which would be equally untidy. And I don't in any way believe that the present situation is a perfect solution because I don't believe there is a perfect solution. But what we [00:40:00] have to ask ourselves is whether the alternative proposed under this bill would improve the situation or whether it would not, and in most emissions it would not. So there's been some discussion on the question of morality and its place in relation to the law. And there is some conflict here, no doubt. But Western society's laws are historically based on traditional morality. And that, I think, is a statement of fact. And let us consider [00:40:30] on what other base or what other guide will we use to base our laws. If Sir, we if, sir, we do not have this base to our laws, what will we substitute? I submit, and I know that there are many interpretations as to where a moral stance should be taken. But I do not believe it is simple, or it is accurate [00:41:00] to say that morality has no place in drafting laws in this country. It has always been a guideline. It has always established some degree of parameters on an area under discussion and always provided lawmakers down through history in New Zealand, with guidance if not direct solutions to the problems of writing law. Sir, it's been [00:41:30] put forward by many that there is no solution to the problem of a homosexual to place him in prison. I don't disagree with that. But, sir, the position is quite clear. The law does not automatically on those very rare occasions that a homosexual is brought before the courts have to punish such a person to prison. There are [00:42:00] many other punishments that are available to the law. And this, sir, I think should be understand, should be understood by all. It is not simply a matter, sir, of immediately ending up in jail. And I would I would suggest on the evidence that was for the discussions I had earlier before this bill was brought to the house that there are very, very few homosexuals in jail for the simple reason or the sole reason that [00:42:30] they are practising homosexuals. There is one that should be clarified. And this is that there is no law against having homosexual inclinations. None whatsoever. Just as there is no law for being hot tempered, all been inclined to be light finned. There is a law. There is a law against violence. When you actively participate in violence, there's a law against light fingers. [00:43:00] If you actively steal something, there is a law, sir, against homosexual activities when you partake in it. Not merely sir. The condition of being a homosexual is not illegal under the law. As a stand at the present time, sir, For these reasons and for others, I will be voting against the second reading of this bill, the honourable Mr Wal. I think the whole question has been [00:43:30] quite extensively and I have nothing much additional to add. But I intend to support the second reading because I believe that the present law is at least a logical and unfair and unenforceable. I think it's a logical, unfair and that it discriminates against women and men. I think it's enforceable, too, if in fact the state isn't to have the power of easy access to the bedrooms [00:44:00] of the nation. And once we give them that right to try and determine or to influence what the what are natural acts and what are our unnatural acts or what is normal? What is unnormal? We we create a dangerous precedent that the state should not become involved in these issues in that way, I think, except also that for some people there's [00:44:30] no matter what their sexual incarnations are, they've got no way whatsoever of changing them any more than they have of changing their eyes from blue to brown. I do accept that also that these people in the past have been subject to a great deal of misery. They've been subject to intimidation and they've been subject to blackmail, and that's undesirable. I also accept, and I support for [00:45:00] Doctor Wall's proposition that there should be some restraint on the activities of those who seek to advocate a different lifestyle. And I think these extremists do the whole cause a disservice because I do believe in these cases that people with bisexual sort of tendencies can be influenced. And if they are exposed to at an early age to this type of promotion, if [00:45:30] you like, then it can influence them and do untold harm. And whilst I can't accept the amendments that Dr Wall has proposed, I would still like to examine the opportunity later on to see if something can be done in this regard, because I think it is, um, quite important my own early days at sea. There's quite a bit of this activity going on, so enough there to at least convince me that young people can [00:46:00] be influenced, uh, in a way that they should not be. I think no matter what the law is, the social social stigma will remain. And that's still the most powerful influence against, uh, the type of activity that's referred to here. But I say again that the present law is illogical. It's unenforceable, and I intend to support the further progress of this measure before the house. Mr. Combet, [00:46:30] Mr. Speaker, During the course of the 1972 election campaign, I and I have no doubt most candidates for, uh, Parliament at that time were asked at some stage, uh, on a public platform what our views were relating to homosexuality. I gave what I know to be an honest answer. At that time, I was not fully enough informed [00:47:00] as to the full ramifications of any proposed change to be able to state categorically at that time my views on the issue. But I did give a pledge to the people of my electorate in 1972 that I would apprise myself of the background and the ramifications of any proposed change. And this I have done. There has been a lot of debate, uh, about a programme [00:47:30] the Doctor Brian Edwards programme on television, which, uh, openly discussed the whole practise of homosexuality within one week of that programme. During the course of my, uh, moving around my electorate, I met with and had a very forthright discussion with one of the, uh people who participated in that particular programme. [00:48:00] I must confess that as a result of all the discussions and the welter of, um, paper observations of submissions that I is, someone in this house commented during the debate on the hospital's amendment Bill have been torn in two directions and I have been asking myself if the law is at present written and more importantly, interpreted by authorities as oppressive [00:48:30] and unfair to practising homosexuals. I think four points emerge and I will be brief in my observations. Every parliament and every country legislates in some way in the moral field. Under the existing law, no homosexual has to go to jail. There is no mandatory jail sentence, although conceivably, as the law stands now, there is a maximum jail sentence [00:49:00] which can be imposed if we remove the legal sanction regarding adult homosexuality. The fact is that, in my opinion, the social stigma remains in this point was confirmed by the minister for overseas trade just a few minutes ago. The proposed bill won't mean more acceptance for them. [00:49:30] And as other members have observed, it is possible that if this measure is passed, there will be public pressure on Parliament again in a year or two or five to, uh, reduce the age of consent in this regard down to 18 16 and so on. If the law is changed now, will it lead to a more overt aggressiveness on [00:50:00] the part of homosexual sexual? We can only speculate on that, but again, I believe that if any member has any doubt, he should vote against the bill. The fact is that we do have a law on our statute books now, and we are proposing to amend that, uh, in the way suggested by, uh, my colleague, the member for Egmont and as brought out in the, uh select committee hearings. Any [00:50:30] enactment, Mr Speaker by this parliament to change the law must be seen, rightly or wrongly, to condone the act of homosexuality. I know that is not the intent of the bill and certainly not the intent of my colleague, the member for Egmont. But it will be seen, I repeat, rightly or wrongly, by the public to in some degree condone the homosexual act. I agree that the state has [00:51:00] no place in the bedroom of the country. But the fact is that we are debating here something that goes far beyond that. I do not believe that the amendment will lift the threat of blackmail, which is appalled by all members of this house. Everyone who has spoken either in favour or against the bill has made some passing reference to that fact. No [00:51:30] one has yet convinced me or has made any strong attempt to indicate that homosexual behaviour is normal or natural. It is a statement. Many males are, of course, born with strong homosexual traits, and that is accepted by me. But I asked myself, Should we do anything as a parliament to encourage or condone a move to a [00:52:00] situation where homosexuality is accepted and where we might give people who are torn between the homosexual and heterosexual, uh, situation to give them the easy way, as it were to adopt the homosexual trait. I don't believe it is the role, indeed the duty of parliament to do such a thing. Mr. Speaker, I am very, very sympathetic [00:52:30] to the plight of males who find that they have strong homosexual characteristics. And I do not say that in any patronising manner. I believe that with help, certain of these people can, uh, be council to help them through what is often often for them, a very difficult period. And of course, the the whole question of the home environment has been mentioned and brought out in earlier debate. [00:53:00] And I will not, uh, elaborate further on it. But I, I know that that does not cover the whole situation. I repeat again that I have weighed up in my own conscience all the views that have been expressed over the last 2. 5 years since the election and when I gave a promise to the people of my electorate that I would look very, very closely at the ramifications of change, I am [00:53:30] finally swayed by the fact that under the law as it is written and interpreted. Now, there is no jail sentence mandatory, no mandatory jail sentence which can or will likely be imposed by the courts of New Zealand. I am also, uh, guided to the fact that the passage of this bill will not change the social stigma which will [00:54:00] attach to people who are homosexual. Mr. Speaker, it's after taking into account all of these considerations without malice or heat or antagonism to any person that I will be voting against the second reading of this bill, the right honourable Sir John Marshall. There you go. I just want to say, just simply and directly at the beginning of what I [00:54:30] wish to say about this bill that I'm opposed to legalising homosexual behaviour. In my view, it's an unnatural act, and I don't see any way in which it could reasonably be claimed to be otherwise. The human body is made for sexual relations between a man and a woman and not for a man with another man. And as I see it, it is [00:55:00] yes, or a woman with another woman. And, uh, for me, uh, that seems to mean that homosexual behaviour, whether between two men or two women is a per position, and for me it is not only unnatural but repulsive. And I know that, uh, there are some who don't take that view. But I think [00:55:30] a distinction should be made very clearly between homosexual tendencies, which some people unfortunately had, and homosexual behaviour. There are, I believe, a number of people who are homosexuals who live with the problem and keep it to themselves. And for them there is no condemnation. But [00:56:00] there should be understanding and commendation for the restraint that they show. And there is nothing illegal or immoral in being a homosexual. What most people and as far as I can gather all members of the House regard as immoral is the performing of sexual acts with persons of the same sex. I would [00:56:30] agree that if the homosexual behaviour was only a moral issue, if homosexual behaviour between two people of the same sex had no other consequence, that it might be left as a matter of morality only. But in my view, homosexual behaviour does raise more than moral issues. I believe it has social consequences. [00:57:00] I believe it hasn't public, uh, consequences, which ought to be the concern of the community and the responsibility of the state in the first place. Uh, I think that it is a responsibility of the state and I'm not talking now about government, but of of the community as a whole, uh, to be concerned about [00:57:30] the preservation and protection of the family, I think the the maintenance of family life is important for the stability and the happiness of our community. And I'm therefore concerned that a form of conduct which in my view, is incompatible, uh, with the preservation of family life should be legalised. [00:58:00] I believe there are people who have, as I've said, homosexual tendencies who do not give way to them. There are others who might go either way who might become addicted to homosexual behaviour or who might, uh, develop as normal people, uh, having normal sexual relationships. If homosexual behaviour were legalised, [00:58:30] as this bill proposes, it would cease to have the restraint of the law to the extent that it then became more widely practised. It would, in my view, tend to undermine what might otherwise have been a normal family relationship for the same reason legalising of homosexual behaviour would strike at a fundamental responsibility of the state, as [00:59:00] I see it, to protect the community from the spread of practises which are unnatural, which are a perversion and which, if they were to spread, would threaten the future of the race. The spreading of this unnatural profession, in my view, has in it the seeds of national degeneration. There have been, uh, [00:59:30] speakers in this debate who have referred to the fact that in Britain and in a number of other uh, countries, homosexual behaviour between consenting males and private has been legalised, and they have claimed that this has been done without apparent harm. I wish I could feel that that was so. But I don't think that the present social and economic conditions in Britain, to name only one country, provide [01:00:00] a model for this country to follow. It is sad that this should be so. It's very sad for those who have a great effect for Britain. But the plain fact is that a malaise has come upon that once great country. There is a general permissive, a lack of discipline and self control, which I would like to see encouraged in this [01:00:30] country. The attitude to homosexual behaviour in Britain, of course, is just a small facet of that general malaise. But I want to have no part of it. It's been claimed, uh, in this debate and I believe wrongly that the law, as it now stands, is not enforced and not enforceable. It's true that the police don't invade private places where these offences [01:01:00] are likely to be performed. I certainly wouldn't support that kind of, uh of, uh, intrusion. But when the police do have evidence of these offences, proceedings are taken in the ordinary course of the administration of the law. And this is common enough in the administration of laws of this kind and there is not a reason for [01:01:30] repealing it. There is some evidence that wife beating still goes on to some extent in this country, and occasionally a husband is brought before the court for assaulting his wife. But the fact that very few such cases come to the notice of the police even though they may be more prevalent, is not an argument for legalising wife beating. And similarly, the fact that there [01:02:00] are very few cases, uh, of prosecutions for homosexual behaviour is not a case for repealing the law. Mr. Speaker, I would concede that, uh, imprisonment is not normally an appropriate punishment. Uh, but as has been pointed out, uh, that is not the only deterrent that is available to the law. And I would certainly [01:02:30] favour a a reform if it's necessary to amend the law to provide for other forms of punishment for periodic detention, for fines, for probation, for requirements as to treatment. But I believe that that can, in any case, be done. Now, Mr Speaker, the final comment that I make is that I would hope that if this bill does get to the committee stages that the amendment [01:03:00] proposed by the member for will not be will not be accepted. It seems to me that that and I don't propose to debate the merits of it. But that would be a very retrograde step, Mr. Speaker, For these reasons, I am not prepared to support this bill. Mr. Speaker, Mr. Young in reply, Mr. Speaker, I want to thank all members who have taken part in this debate. [01:03:30] I have an understanding for and with those who have struggled with their consciences before they have decided how they will speak in this debate and how they will vote on this measure. I think all of us have been able to think past an intinction that we have within us and consider the plight of people whose feelings, sir, we do. We do not feel it [01:04:00] is easily to comprehend, Mr Speaker. Naturally, I thank those who who have indicated their support, their support for the provisions in my bill, and particularly those who have stood on their feet and this house and have acknowledged that over the course of years they have changed their opinion, never an easy thing to do, sir. I also understand [01:04:30] those who have spoken against the proposals of the Crimes Amendment bill because of a deep religious conviction. Yet I know there are many others of equally deep religious convictions who strongly favour the measure. Mr. Speaker one cannot help but be persuaded by the support from from a wide section of the established judges for the provisions [01:05:00] that are contained in my bill. Mr. Speaker, there has been some suggestion and one particularly from my colleague, the member for Rodney that well, we shouldn't really change the law or even propose to change it because there is no one in prison at the present time, sir, I can only refer him to submissions that were made by the New Zealand Association of Probation Officers to the Select Committee. And they said this Sir arrest, trial [01:05:30] and sentence for a homosexual who is otherwise a law abiding citizen can be devastating. Career opportunities may be destroyed. Purpose and goal in life may be lost. Satisfactory adjustment and a worthwhile contract to society can become more difficult. Furthermore, sir, they say, it may be argued that adult persons engaged in homosexual activities in private at [01:06:00] the present time are not at risk of prosecution. Sir, the probation officers say this in our experience, this is not always so. There also remains for the person's concern a knowledge that the law has been broken, a constant fear of detection and the possibility of the various forms of ex extortion. Uh, Mr uh, Mr Speaker, [01:06:30] I do not propose to attribute to specific members whose arguments have been in opposition to the bill. But let me say this. I find it difficult to understand the opinion of members whose inflexibility of opinion has required them to argue on matters not contained nor even implied in the measure. [01:07:00] So the question of the age of consent was argued on the basis of next it will be 18. Then it may be 16. Then it may be 14. Then it may disappear altogether. So the members who used these arguments know full well that a number of submissions were made to the Select Committee who and these submissions advocated a lower age of consent [01:07:30] for clause two of the bill, but that in spite of this, the consensus of opinion of the committee and the provisions of this bill was the that the age of consent should be the age of 20. So some who have argued against the bill have equated legality with morality, as indeed the Sir John did who preceded me immediately [01:08:00] in this debate. There have been other criticisms, sir, about the definition of in private and a criticism of the definition of a place of resource from the member for sir, I point out that those matters are not contained in the bill. They have been removed by the amendments. Mr. Speaker, I make the point as I have done time and again that it is essential we define [01:08:30] between what is legal and what is moral. So those who oppose the bill have three main arguments. Society needs a moral code. Any breach of this code weakens society, society, even where no harm is accompanying the breach. Therefore, the law should reinforce this moral code. But, sir, surely this can only apply when everyone shares the same code of morality. And [01:09:00] those who support this idea must claim that morality must be won with the whole of society. Today. Sir, our society is heterogeneous, varied. There are various views of the morality involved, and I'm sure that the present at present a majority of New Zealanders support a change in the law. So in any case, how does one judge in a law what is moral? Secondly, sir, it is said that [01:09:30] punishing the homosexual demonstrates society's condemnation of the act. Sir, punishment is usually held to be either retribution or deterrent. That is, it does something to the individual to make him a tone for what he's done or it prevents others sir from doing the same thing. In fact, sir, the present law does so so few times there are consequently [01:10:00] few prosecutions. Therefore, sir, it is reasonable to assume that society as a whole cannot feel strongly about the need for punishment. Another point of view suggests that if society's laws don't condemn acts, then they must be taken to condone them. So that is simply not correct amount of sociological research that shows that people don't necessarily [01:10:30] associate what is morally wrong with what is illegal and that by repealing a law, people would not feel that moral sanctions are weakened. Thirdly, thirdly, sir, there are those who state that the law, though ineffective, is a way of showing society's condemnation, and its repeal would weaken the moral condemnation and lead to a change [01:11:00] of morality and more permissiveness. Sir, I believe this is completely incorrect. People have a very clear idea on what is morally wrong. At the same time, they have a very unclear idea of what is against the law. Let me ask this question, sir. What good does it is there to have a law against homosexuality if the law doesn't stop those who at present are [01:11:30] homosexuals? And sir, and, uh, sending sending these people to prison won't stop them either. Mr Speaker, there is no point in a member suggesting well, although the penalty is not imposed, we will leave it there. It is our responsibility as legislators to ensure that penalties fit the crimes and that the penalties are applied. So [01:12:00] unless the law is more rigidly enforced than at present, fear of being caught won't stop anyone either. In fact, legal enforcement, sir, of morality by punishment may indeed be a bad a bad thing. There is a grave danger that the moral sense may wither away and leave only a fear of punishment. Mr. Speaker, People conforming through fear and not [01:12:30] true belief, I don't believe is a solution that is sought even by those who oppose this measure. So everyone has the right to moral views and the right to persuade or educate others to know what is morally right. But the law does not do this and nor should it have this responsibility. Sir, let me repeat my invitation to those members who who have argued that the laws and the morals [01:13:00] are indivisible. If they consider that lesbian acts are immoral and I believe that they would hold this point of view then let one of them introduce a bill making this the case. Similarly, sir, If those opposed to the reform in my measure insist that the present law is a bastion for morality, then it is their responsibility to see that the present law is enforced. Otherwise, [01:13:30] sir, their case has no logic. Sir, My amendment to the Crimes Act is proposed on the basis of humanity, of logic and of equality. I believe New Zealand is a country where these values are held high. So let me conclude my summary by repeating what I said in my introductory speech. There are times [01:14:00] and countries where humanity becomes lost in laws inherited from the past. Equity, compassion and logic. Each demand that parliaments alter such laws. Sir, I move the second reading of the Crimes Amendment Bill. The question is that the Crimes Amendment Bill be now read a second time. As many as of that opinion will say I the country opinion will say no. The nose have it [01:14:30] division called for. Ring the bells. Yeah. The bells are ringing in Parliament buildings, summoning all members to the chamber to vote in a division. We'll return to the house when Mr speaker puts the question again until this happens. An interview. An interval of music [01:15:00] Question is that the Crimes amendment Bill? Be now. Read a second time. The eyes will go to the right and the nose will go to the left. Tell us for the eyes, Mr V Young and Doctor Basset Tell us for the nose. The Honourable Mr Thomson [01:15:30] and Mr Kirk. Yeah.

IRN: 272
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/alison_laurie_bigot_busters_rally.html
ATL REF: 
ATL URL: 
TITLE: Alison Laurie - Bigot Busters rally
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; Alison Laurie; Bigot Busters rally (1985, Wellington); Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); National Gay Rights Coalition; Wellington; Wellington Town Hall; activism; gay liberation movement; homosexual law reform; human rights; lesbian; politics
DATE: 21 May 1985
YEAR: 1985
LOCATION: Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Alison Laurie addresses the Bigot Busters rally held at the Wellington Town Hall on 21 May 1985. A detailed log of this recording (cassette 0503-B) is available from the LAGANZ website.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I would like to talk about why this bill is important for all women, and especially for lesbians. As lesbians, we experience at least a double oppression. We're oppressed both as women and as lesbian. Some of us are also further oppressed because of our race or because of our class. [00:00:30] Because of this, our interest in the bill is different from that of gay men, though of equal importance, it has been said that no woman is free until every woman is free to choose to be a lesbian. What do we mean by that? One very important thing that we mean is that all women are kept in line and are made to conform to a rigid and sexist stereotype by the threat of what happens to [00:01:00] lesbians of the social, economic and other punishments which we experience as lesbians, any woman, lesbian or not, pre lesbian, perhaps hm, who chooses not to marry, not to have Children, to live alone or with other women who chooses not to have sex with men who [00:01:30] chooses to work in a so-called untraditional occupation who chooses to dress in comfortable practical clothing rather than sexy feminine frills. Any woman who objects to being treated as a sex object and objects to being subjected to sexual harassment from men at her workplace on the street or socially. Any woman who is strong, outspoken, who demands equal treatment, who campaigns against rape against the pornographic depictions of women, any woman who campaigns [00:02:00] for abortion and a woman's right to choose, in short, any woman who steps outside of what has been defined as our proper sex role and stereotype. Any woman who steps outside that in any way risks being punished as lesbian. Whether she is or not to make women afraid of being lesbian is therefore a powerful weapon which reactionary patriarchs can use against all women. Not only does this keep many lesbians [00:02:30] in the closet, but it keeps most women safely confined and quiet. Therefore, no woman is free until any and every woman is free to be lesbian, without social and economic punishments and without risk. This is the important feminist principle of self determination, of every woman's rights, to her own body and to her own life. A woman's right to choose on the abortion issue, though of vital importance, is only part of [00:03:00] the much wider issue of our right to choose our own sexuality and to choose our own lives. A woman's right to choose for herself, not as a creature designed to to serve others, uh, and in a rigid stereotype set up to benefit patriarchs but for herself, for ourselves, our lives We live in a system of compulsory heterosexuality by compulsory [00:03:30] heterosexuality. We're not just talking about forced marriages, but but about the constant pressure which every woman experiences, that she should conform to what the Patriarchs demand. That means that we live in a system which has institutionalised heterosexuality. And this has been called hetero sexism and hetero sexism. Uh, is a particularly vile and horrible oppression. [00:04:00] So far as this bill is concerned, we support it as lesbians. We support part one of the bill because while gay men are are criminalised, then we suffer from the stigma of that as well. Um, a lot of people believe, in fact, that we are criminal. We're certainly treated as criminals. So, uh, part one of the bill is enormously important [00:04:30] because the aspect of criminalization must be removed. Part two of the bill is extremely important to us. Uh, because that is the part which provides for human rights for lesbians and gay men human rights in all of the areas which the Human Rights Act covers. This, of course, does not go far enough. Many other countries provide more protection [00:05:00] for lesbians and gay men, in particular the Scandinavian countries. Uh, that is one of the reasons why so many of our New Zealand lesbians and gay men have chosen to live in exile. Uh, all over the world, you'll find communities of New Zealand lesbians and gay men. Uh, not only in these times, but in previous times many of our greatest, uh, people left New Zealand because of the oppression which they experienced as lesbian, uh, writers like Catherine Mansfield, [00:05:30] for example. Other countries provide more protection in a number of ways. Um, in Norway, for example, there is, uh, there are laws which provide for jail sentences for people who make public utterances against lesbians or gay men. Uh, and in those countries, people who uh, made the sort of utterances we've been hearing in the past few months would in fact be put in prison. [00:06:00] Now, some of those people would say that that denied them free speech, they would say that their free speech means that they should be able to make whatever kind of utters they like. Um, and that's a very interesting principle, because, in fact, what those people are trying to do is to deny us free speech by creating a climate of opinion where it becomes impossible for us to be visible. They are effectively denying us [00:06:30] free speech. They're also doing something which the Scandinavians call mobbing and mobbing is something which, uh, if you were a Scandinavian school child, you would be being taught about that. The Scandinavians say that mobbing is something which starts in Children. It starts at the point where a group of Children, either because they're more powerful or more numerous, decide to select out a group or an individual for particular punishment, either because, uh, the [00:07:00] child is not wearing the correct designer jeans, Um, or because they're of a different race or class or some reason like that, that mobbing begins in these childish ways. In schools and in adulthood, it takes particularly horrible forms because in adulthood it turns into the kind of fascism, uh, which believes that it can exterminate groups of people, uh, that it can persecute groups of people and that it is entitled to do that. Uh, and [00:07:30] no truly democratic society can permit mobbing on any level. Which is why, uh, many of those countries have passed those kinds of laws which prevent people from making, uh, horrific public utterances. And we do accept that principle in New Zealand because under the race relations Act, uh, there is some protection given there. Uh, we must remember [00:08:00] that we have links and connections with people suffering other kinds of oppressions. We must recognise the links between racism and classism and sexism and our own oppression. All of those kinds of oppressions come from the same place They come from a group of straight white, [00:08:30] middle class men who enjoy many privileges themselves and who believe that in order to preserve those privileges, it is necessary to deny them to others. It is therefore of great importance that we see those links with other oppressions and that we support people who suffer [00:09:00] equally with us from people from that group. Many things have happened in the past to gay people and to lesbians, uh, which also happened to other groups had those people at that time sought alliances with other groups. It's not to say that those things might not have happened, but at least [00:09:30] they would have tried. At least there would have been an attempt to prevent those things happening. Germany's Holocaust, the Holocaust, in which half a million lesbians and gay men were put to death by the Nazis, Germany's Holocaust within the Holocaust might have been able to be prevented if all of the oppressed groups had been able to see where it was coming from, had made those links and connections, and tried to do something about the right wing before [00:10:00] it was too late. Unfortunately for many people, by the time they make those connections, it can be too late. People are already saying in this country that, uh, we should suffer the death penalty. Uh, and those same kind of people who are saying that we'll certainly be saying it about other groups as well. Many of them believe it. [00:10:30] Yeah, many of them, many of them believe it. Um, and I think it's necessary to take those people seriously. I think it's necessary to see just who they are and where they're coming from and what it is that they intend. Um, so what can we do? One of the most important things is to be visible to be visible as lesbians [00:11:00] and gay men. Those of you who are here tonight are making a statement by, um, By coming out publicly, you'll have another opportunity on Friday to march in the Lesbian and Gay Rights March. You've got an opportunity to put your name in the newspaper. An ad is being run on Friday morning in the Dominion, uh, in support of the bill. And if you haven't signed for that ad yet, you can sign in two categories. Uh, category one, lesbians and gay men who support [00:11:30] the bill or as supporters of the bill. But if you haven't signed that ad yet, uh, you'll have an opportunity to do so. Tonight there's a table outside the main door. Those are a couple of the things that you can do at the moment. But more importantly than that, visibility is ensuring that as many people as possible know that you are lesbian or gay. A closet is a very dangerous place to be. It's dangerous for two reasons. It's dangerous because the society can pretend [00:12:00] that you don't exist. If you make it comfortable for them, they can say that there are not many of us. Um, they can pretend, uh, that we we are not around. And secondly, it's very bad for you, uh, within yourself to be forced to live the kind of stressful life that living in a closet involves. And the kind of mental pressure that you suffer living in a closet. The fear [00:12:30] that, um, the secret will be disclosed is not one that it's easy to live with. Of course, there are risks involved in coming out of the closet, and there are sacrifices, too. But you have to weigh that cost up the sorts of friends that you might lose if you came out of the closet. Are they worth having? Um, perhaps you might lose your job. And in these economic times, that's a very difficult decision to make. But maybe for the sake of your own sanity, that could be a decision you might [00:13:00] want to want to take. Um, you might get thrown out of your rented accommodation as yet. We don't have these protections. Uh, but once again, that's a risk that you might want to take and that you should seriously look at what you believe would be the consequences of coming out and see how many of those areas in your life. Um, you could take that decision to make yourself visible because the more of us who are visible, [00:13:30] the more visibility we have. Uh, the safer, the stronger our community will be. So come out now, be visible. Tell everyone you can be blatant, be as gay and as lesbian as you can all the time.

IRN: 278
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/mike_waghorne_gay_rights_movement.html
ATL REF: 
ATL URL: 
TITLE: Gay Rights Movement (c. 1979)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Mike Waghorne
INTERVIEWER: unidentified interviewer
TAGS: 1970s; Aotearoa New Zealand; International Gay Association; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Marxism; Mike Waghorne; Wellington; activism; feminism; gay; gay liberation movement; gay rights movement; marriage; media; radio; social justice; socialism; unidentified interviewer
DATE: 1 January 1979
YEAR: 1979
LOCATION: Aotearoa New Zealand, Aotearoa New Zealand, Oceania
CONTEXT: In this recording from c. 1979 Mike Waghorne describes the motivations behind the Gay Rights Movements. A detailed log of the recording is available from the LAGANZ website.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, what are the political aspects of the gay rights movement? Really? They fall into two at least two quite separate elements. There are the narrow legislative aims the attempts to get, for example, uh, sexual orientation included in the Human Rights Commission Act so that it's no longer legal to discriminate against gay people. Uh, there's the obvious thing about, uh, changing the Crimes Act so that male homosexual acts are OK. They [00:00:30] really aren't the major focus, though, of the movement at present in terms of, uh, longer term political objectives, which are really aimed at the restructuring of society along nonsexist lines along lines that don't force people into particular stereotype roles along lines that will force really a rather close and perhaps disturbing examination of the intimate relationships between people, be they between men and women or men and men [00:01:00] or women and women. Um, the attempt to look at the power relationships that go on in families. Well, how do you see what would be your your ultimate vision of of such a society, what sort of power relationships would be, um, very radically changed? I think particularly the patriarchal power relationships by which most men are almost guaranteed that be it publicly or privately, their power [00:01:30] to make decisions, and particularly their ability to control the decision making of women is, uh, really almost unrestrained at present. Now that is something which we would like to see challenged and drastically altered so curiously as a male homosexual here, you're pushing the women's barrow. Oh, look, there's no question of it that as far as gay liberation is concerned and the gay movement in general, our [00:02:00] aims cannot be achieved Until feminism has been totally successful. We can never get ahead of the feminist movement because, in fact, the major gains that are going to be made in that area will be made by women, and the best we can do is to offer support. Well, freeing sexuality from the patriarchal family structure could be seen by many as a direct threat to the basic social and economic unit of our society, which is a sacred institution. You were saying you would quite happily threaten this. Are you talking of the family? Yes, the basic [00:02:30] family unit. OK, one has to distinguish between the family and the institution of marriage. Now the family can consist of a variety of forms so that you can have, for example, one person living on his or her own. You can have two men living together, two women living together, a man and a woman living together with no Children. You can have all of those things I've just mentioned with Children. You can have those things, uh, with much older adults. Grandparents, for example. [00:03:00] You can have groups of two or more adults, such a vast variety. Now, those kinds of relationships presumably, are absolutely central and essential to any human society. And I don't think that the gay movement or the feminist movement, for that matter, is on about the destruction of a person's right and ability to live in those kinds of familial relationships. But when it comes to the question of marriage, it's a different story. [00:03:30] I don't think that the gay movement is going to demand that marriage be forbidden. What it is on about is the stopping of the present situation by which the marriage institution has an extra special privilege over and above all others, so that if you are not married, then your ability to pass on property, your ability to make all kinds of legal contracts may be hindered. Your [00:04:00] ability to accept particular forms of accommodation loans. Other things from the government are all hindered. The marriage institution has some kind of political hegemony over the rest of society, and the gay movement is on about the removal of that hegemony, not the removal of the family institutions that maybe go with that with again. The exception I mentioned before that within all of those familial kinds of relationships. [00:04:30] What, of course we want to see is much more egalitarianism, the freedom of people to make their own decisions, the freedom of people to make their own commitments and to end those commitments When it becomes obvious that that particular relationship is no longer serving the interests of the people concerned within it, there are some relationships that are much better destroyed for the sake of all. This brings us onto the ground surely of coming straight up against, uh, Christian religion, doesn't it? [00:05:00] If you start talking about the marriage institution, the primacy thereof, I guess it may do, uh, that's up to Christians to sort out. I gather there's a lot of, uh, division within the Christian movement as to just what the essential elements of marriage are. Um, certainly, I think it's correct to say that uh, many, many gay people identify the organised Christian movements as the chief source of our oppression and also the chief [00:05:30] source of much of what we criticise in a patriarchal, sexist society. So all in all, really, in your terms, the gay rights movement is a radical political movement. Well, it certainly should be. I hope it is the unquestioned factors that there are people within the movement who don't have those long term objectives. I guess there are very many people in the gay movement who do perceive their objectives as the narrow legislative ones, and they feel that [00:06:00] once they're allowed to, uh, this is males allowed to have sex with one another, Uh, or with all gay people that once they're no longer discriminated against, then that's it. But for those people who adopt, and I don't like the elitist term of leadership, but for those people who do fulfil the leadership positions at present, I think there is a recognition that really the lot of gay people and the lot of women is not going to be improved just with those legislative changes that, in fact, there are whole [00:06:30] institutional structures. Uh, be they education, the large public ones or the family, The private ones, which really do pass on all kinds of ideological nonsense about what it is to be a woman or what it is to be gay. And until those things are altered and until you're you're able to restructure society by altering the public and private institutions, gay people and women don't really stand to gain very much. So you wouldn't stop the gay rights [00:07:00] fight if tomorrow, for instance, by some miracle attitudes changed. Homosexuality was decriminalised and discrimination was outlawed. Oh, not immediately, No, I don't think so. Uh, first of all, you know, obviously that's a hypothetical question, and and the the chance of any society changing the whole of its attitudes overnight and the way it changes its socks, uh, just isn't on. Um, But even if that did happen, uh, we're talking of such vast and really [00:07:30] quite traumatic changes to society that really, uh, for a long time afterwards, one would be working at the creation of new alternatives. You see, it's really not possible for any radical group to describe the kind of society that it's going to create if you work in with groups of gay people. And I've heard many feminists describe the same thing in working with groups of women, when you see the huge amount of creativity and almost [00:08:00] unlimited energy that women working together can unleash or gays working together can unleash, you'd have to be a fool to predict the form and nature of the society that those people are going to create once they're allowed to achieve their objectives and to have a whole human race in which every woman, every gay every black person is freely contributing is freely, uh, participating in that society. You know, we we're envisaging something [00:08:30] that no human being has any perception of at present. Do you hope for this to be an evolutionary change, or do you think it's going to have to be revolutionary? Oh, I think basically most people would hope that you can have an evolutionary change. Uh, I personally and this doesn't necessarily reflect the beliefs of all other people in the movement. I believe that once it becomes obvious that the kinds of things that we [00:09:00] are seeking are going to become reality. Then there are strong vested interests in society who will unleash the kind of persecution that one has seen. For example, in Cuba, where concentration camps were set up for homosexual people, Uh, or in other socialist countries where they are either denied to exist or where they're quite extensively persecuted. I believe that at some stage, the state and organised elite groups will unleash [00:09:30] violence against gay people. And I think that we will have every right to defend ourselves. And the same goes for women. Uh, but that won't be a violence or a bloodletting that's been initiated by either of those two movements. Do you think that the gay movement is in danger of being split between the radicals with the sort of world vision that you yourself might have and those who just seek acceptance of their quiet minority lifestyle? Oh, undoubtedly, Yes, yes, I think that's already apparent. There are, as [00:10:00] I said before, many groups who are quite happy to accept just the legislative changes and then get on with the quiet life. I think by and large, what tends to happen is that the more those kinds of people get involved in the kind of upfront political activity and are identified in the media and start getting the kind of, um hassling that many of us face, they rapidly become radicalised into believing and acknowledging that those [00:10:30] narrow aims are nowhere near enough. Uh, one very, very quickly learns to be radicalised when you see the way in which liberals suddenly get off the bus two stops before you want them to and, uh, pick up arms with the conservatives who you've been fighting all the time. And I think that when you see those people getting off the bus, you recognise that you've got to go on a few more steps than you've intended. How left wing is the movement? You you You have said that in Cuba there [00:11:00] was tremendous repression, for instance of, um of homosexuals, and this has happened in other socialist states. But do you see advantages in in Marxist humanist ideology, for example, is there any tie up here? I believe yourself are a Marxist. Yes, I am. I don't see any necessary connection between Marxism and Gay liberation. And as you said, I pointed to what happened in Cuba. When you look at what happens in the Soviet Union and in China, uh, anybody who wants to tell gay people that their salvation lies in adopting [00:11:30] socialism, frankly, is a liar. I hope that some someday we do see a socialist society. But I think that it is absolutely essential that gay people who want to achieve their liberation must achieve that on their own and quite independently of any Marxist movements. Because the history of Marxism is a history of selling out on gays of persecuting gays. Why do you hang in there with them? That as as, well, yourself [00:12:00] as I say, I believe that socialism is something that's worth achieving. But just the historical background of what, uh Marxists traditional Marxists have tended to do to women and to gays leads me to believe that just traditional old working class socialism on its own is not enough, because basically, the socialist movements have been led by men and mainly by straight men, mainly by white men. And they really don't [00:12:30] see what it's like to be oppressed as black or women or gay or whatever else, which would you put first? Oh, I wouldn't, um I think that it's up to each person to to look at society and see how he or she is being oppressed and looking at the, uh, groups with whom they most associate looking at things they can most easily do with their talents or with their opportunities to work in those movements. Uh, I certainly won't won't [00:13:00] go along with the message that, you know we've got to achieve Socialist Revolution first, and then all the other things can come afterwards. Um, for me, there's a kind of a broad front that's got to be built there between feminists and socialists. Between non-racial between people in gay liberation and so on, those groups have to learn from one another. They have to learn to support one another in public, even if they do disagree privately over tactics and strategies. Is there any international [00:13:30] tie up with between gay rights movements? Uh, and that they're associated in any aims other than acceptance and non-discrimination in in in the more revolutionary things that that you've mentioned culturally, socially and politically, is there Is there a conscious tie up and organised internationalism, if you like, Up until the middle of last year, No, there wasn't very much. Uh, in late 1978 a group of nine countries came together [00:14:00] to form the International Gay Association. Uh, my latest information on that is that there are now about 17 countries with, uh, gay groups as members of the International Gay Association. I think that basically those groups tend to share the kinds of things that I've just been talking about. Uh, but it's really a little early to say the thing has been going for less than a year. Uh, it's had extreme communication problems because the centre of that [00:14:30] organisation is in fact, in Dublin. And there's been the British and Irish postal strike, which totally destroyed communication for several months. So, uh, there's really no way of knowing just which way that organisation is going to go. Do you have any tie up with? Um, you've said that you allow yourself with feminist movements, this sort of thing. Do you have any tie up under for what could be called a fertility control movement with Planned Parenthood associations with, um, uh, abortion on demand groups things like this, because [00:15:00] apparently the International Planned Parenthood Federation has three key points to control fertility, one of which is to encourage homosexuality. And the other two are to encourage abortion and to encourage women out to work. Now, how do you see your role in that sort of context? Is is this a conscious? I find that really very amusing. I've I've never heard of the International Planned Parenthood Federation pushing homosexuality. Uh, and certainly when you look at, uh, affiliates like the New Zealand, um, Family [00:15:30] Planning Association, I think that for us to go to them and seek support, uh would be, uh, quite unacceptable. Uh, probably to both groups, because my impression is that many of those groups are inherently pretty conservative. In fact, uh, my understanding of much of what the International Planned Parenthood Federation does is that it is directly anti feminist. Um, their message is not one of pushing for the choice of women. Very often, they're pushing over population type hypotheses. [00:16:00] And I've noticed many feminist posters in which the International Planned Parenthood Federation is described as part of the enemy along there with doctors. So I find that whole, you know, international conspiracy theory Quite ludicrous. Do you openly recruit in that you set out to make the homosexual lifestyle look so attractive and the ordinary marital one look restrictive and destructive. Barbara Faithful says gay rights coalition material made available in schools, lists eight advantages [00:16:30] of homosexuality and criticises the heterosexual lifestyle. Yeah, uh, I presume that she's talking about a pamphlet called on Being Homosexual. Now, I have seen copies of that, uh, pamphlet. It is not a national gay rights coalition pamphlet. Um, in terms of recruiting, I guess that depends on what she means by that, Uh, I guess our most obvious attempt to recruit is among the gay community itself, uh, to make more [00:17:00] gay people aware of their situation and to, uh, raise their consciousness to the to the situation where they will start to become more active in the movement in terms of recruiting in schools. Uh, I presume that by that she means we're attempting to convert kids from heterosexuality to homosexuality to make them dissatisfied with the the sort of roles that they're being handed by their family and the schools. Yeah, that's a very crude misunderstanding of the way sexual orientation develops in a person. There's no way in which [00:17:30] you can simply go along and run A you know, a TV advertising campaign to convert the population to to homosexuality. Uh, by the time you've got to kids in schools that we speak to, say, seventh form kids, their sexual orientation is well and truly settled anyway, so, no, there's no way that we're attempting to recruit in that manner. Also, uh, Barbara Faith has got to acknowledge, and so has the rest of the Concerned Parents Association that we don't actively recruit at all. To the [00:18:00] best of my knowledge, no gay group in this country has ever invited itself into a school. We have only ever gone into schools at the invitation of the principal, the coordinator of Liberal Studies school committee, the PT a or whatever it is. And there's never been an attempt on our part to, you know, move in on schools and force something on them they don't want. And are there many schools who are prepared to invite you to come along and do this? I only know the Christchurch and Wellington [00:18:30] situations, uh, in Christchurch. There's no more than about four or five schools who regularly take part in such programmes. Uh, in Wellington. I know of only two that have adopted that policy. Um, And when we go into schools, our attempt is not really to convince people of the advantages of homosexuality per se, but to show them that, in fact, homosexuality is a valid lifestyle and that there is no reason to discriminate [00:19:00] against it. Um, it would be rather foolish of us to try and, uh, pressurise kids into adopting a particular lifestyle or sexual orientation, which wasn't natural to them. I mean, the whole basis of much of our claim is that each person should be free to express that which is natural to him or herself. And so the attempt to force people to join our movement and our sexuality would be ludicrous.

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TITLE: Radio Gala (8 July 1990)
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VOICES: Glenda Gale
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TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; Adolf Hitler; Alfies 1; Alison Laurie; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland Community Church; Bigot Busters; Bigot Busters (song, 1985); Bill Logan; Bob Wilkie; Cynthia Bagwash; Dominion (newspaper); Fran Wilde; Gay Lesbian Welfare (Auckland); Gay Lesbian Welfare telephone (Auckland); Gay Space coffee evening (Auckland); Gay Task Force; Gayline (Auckland); Gays and Lesbians in Education (GLE); George Gair; Germany; Glenda Gale; Graeme Lee; HIV / AIDS; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Icebreakers (Auckland); Isherwood Trust (Auckland); John Banks; Judy Glen; Kate Leslie; Knox Church Hall; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Lesbian support and social group (Auckland); Linda Evans; Member of Parliament; Mr Right (personals); Neil Costelloe; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Normal Jones; Norman Jones; Parliament buildings; Peter Tait; Radio Gala; Rodney Knight; Salvation Army; Salvation Army Citadel; St Matthew-in-the-City; Staircase nightclub; The Right Time (song); Wellington; Wellington Gay Task Force; Wellington Town Hall; Westside Sauna; Women's Centre (Auckland); activism; chant; history; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; law; media; newspapers; politics; radio; telephone support
DATE: 8 July 1990
YEAR: 1990
LOCATION: Aotearoa New Zealand, Aotearoa New Zealand, Oceania
CONTEXT: This Radio Gala retrospective programme contains a rich collection of audio actuality from the 1985-86 period of homosexual law reform. Much of the material came from events in the Wellington region and was originally broadcast on Wellington Access Radio.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Good evening and welcome to Radio Gala this Sunday, the eighth of July 1990. My name's Neil Access Radio Auckland [00:00:30] Tonight's programme is centred on the passing of the homosexual law reform bill. At the time, homosexuals in New Zealand felt that this bill meant much more to them than just legalising homosexual acts. It meant that all gays and lesbians in New Zealand could now live normal lives without the guilt and fear that came with their lifestyles and also our usual what's on in gay and Lesbian Auckland this week in gay history. And we will also be [00:01:00] giving away free passes to the West Side sauna. Stay tuned for details later in the programme. I go and listen to our Sunday show on just after 83. [00:01:30] Auckland Community Church offers a ministry to the people of Auckland, especially those who are gay centred at ST Matthew's in the city corner, Hobson and Wellesley Streets. Holy Communion Sundays at 8 p. m. Everyone is welcome. [00:02:00] This small piece of writing appeared in one of New Zealand's leading magazines soon after the homosexual law reform bill was passed, and we feel it's appropriate for tonight's programme as gays we have to create our own lives. And El Little is given to us in the sense that heterosexuals [00:02:30] are given and prepared for life. For us, there is no game plan, no certainties for us. The risks are great. The disasters many and the hurt is profound. But we gain often a compassion, an individual uniqueness and humour, which is extraordinary. And this we have much to offer. As part of the campaign in favour of the homosexual law reform bill. The familiar Ghostbusters song from the movie was rewritten and retitled bigot [00:03:00] busters in Wellington. Listen closely to the words. Yeah, [00:03:30] that strange. Yeah. You got a call. Butter and it Don't Look, boy, you got a call. Do I ain't afraid? No. Big. [00:04:00] I ain't afraid. No. Big. Who are you gonna call? Bad. Who are you gonna call? [00:04:30] No Bigger, Have you? Oh. [00:05:00] Oh, but great. No, big. Who are you going? [00:05:30] Yeah, Hope you [00:06:00] I ain't afraid of No, I ain't afraid. No big ass. [00:06:30] No, no, no. Let it come And through your dog. Better call. What? Hello? Think you better call? Where are you going to call [00:07:00] you? You better call there. Here you got a car and Buster, please. There you got a call, But think you better, Carl? Yes, [00:07:30] as all of this happened five or more years ago, many will remember these brief excerpts from protest marches and meetings [00:08:00] with nostalgia. And as far as I'm concerned, all I know is that I am a perfectly normal person now from eight kids got six of my own. And as far as I'm concerned, what I'm talking about and what this bill is abnormal sex between males, it's about sodomy. There's a front page picture of an eight year old girl who was given a petition opposing homosexual law reform at a Wellington church. Her mother told the Dominion she's seething about the incident and ripped up the petition. [00:08:30] The glass door was opened at the front of the Citadel, and several Army men came out. One pushed the press photographer's camera into his face, while another tried to keep him out of the way. Good life, an army the Iran has. So not only are salvation armies peddling petitions of hate, [00:09:00] but they're now assaulting reporters. My God, will anyone be safe? We didn't intend the real Shield campaign to be spent on this Salvation Army money being spent on persecution of people. Is that right? Well, where's the money coming from? Where's the money coming from? From this petition, there won't be a cent of Salvation Army money spent on who's paying for the petition. The Red [00:09:30] Right and Salvation Army get their money. They get their money from New Zealand. We get it from working for our living. If Jesus was given, Jesus was gay. He Jesus was gay. Oh, know, I know [00:10:00] that this meeting support the homosexual law reform bill. So we've got 100 and 50 gay here tonight. We've got 100 and 50 people supporting the bill. I I supporting the bill. OK, everybody that's supporting the bill isn't a gay. That's true. 51 parliamentarians are supporting it so far, they're not all gays. They [00:10:30] don't not all gay. I've got the suspicions about a few of them all the same. And now I'm telling the people of New Zealand that this parliament will not throw this bill out. The only way that the people the only way that the people of New Zealand can get it thrown out is to have a million signatures on a petition that would be thrown out. And it will be the first speaker this evening. [00:11:00] The first speaker this evening is Sir Peter Tate. He was the chief petitioner. I met this young man. You? Yeah. He said, come with me and we work around. We walked around to the front of the hotel and we walked along the street and he said to me, we talked about New Zealand and about America, and then he said [00:11:30] to me, I do know you, but I am attracted to you, an old man like me. And this is what he said. We said, Listen, listen. This is what this man, a man of about 30 said to me in the dark at half past four in the morning. [00:12:00] He said, Will you let me suck you? That is what happened to me in Hawaii a few months ago. Thank you. I off The last [00:12:30] speaker is Mr Norman. Come, You're not mine. So says where you come from, what we're looking at. I don't love homosexuals. As far as I'm concerned, you're the 95 per cent normal people. People stand up [00:13:00] and God bless the people so much We do homosexual legalise Children to be contaminated by the everything. Look at them. Look at them there upon them. They're looking for the They're looking up for homosexuals You might catch. All right, [00:13:30] thank you very much. All right, I do. We say concerned Christians, hiring town halls to discuss the problems of the alienation of Children of our society or violence within [00:14:00] the family. Right. And we do not see this happening and we question the motives for their concern. I believe their concern is founded on irrational fear and ignorance. Keith Hay is the organiser of the petition and has clearly stated in the New Zealand Times on the seventh of April that he does not know anything about homosexuality. [00:14:30] He says in fact, that he had not actually heard of it until a couple of months ago. However, this man is prepared and has ignorance to organise a nationwide campaign against a group of people whom he knows nothing about. He condemns such an action. We are citizens of this country. We demand our rights. [00:15:00] They're citizens of New Zealand. Support the bill, condemn the petition, the petition that is based on ignorance don't circulate it. Don't sign it. If you have already signed it spray enough to have your name removed. He's not too late. Support the bill. Support Human, Right? [00:15:30] I'm assuming that you're all gay here tonight. Are you You all gay, [00:16:00] Lao? Like I've got a petition here. Petition MB Is it you, Lao? Hey! Hey! Petition M me. Is that what it is? This petition here I got a million signatures on this piece of paper writer crab pin this hand. Now you take Jim McLay. There's a liberal minded man. Or so we thought, a defender of people's rights. So we thought, What's he trying to do? Does he want to prove [00:16:30] the rumours are right? One of the most important things is to be visible to be visible as lesbians and gay men. Those of you who are here tonight are making a statement by by coming out publicly, you'll have another opportunity on Friday to march in the Lesbian and Gay Rights March. You've got an opportunity to put your name in the newspaper. An ad is being run on Friday morning in the Dominion because the more of us who are visible, [00:17:00] the more visibility. We have, uh the safer, the stronger our community will be. So come out now. Be visible. Tell everyone you can be blatant. Be as gay and as lesbian as you can all the time. What right? Where do we want them now? What do we want? Do we want them now? [00:17:30] Just got straight. Just 3579. Let's be as the mighty five, 52568. K is just as good as 32468. But things are changing. We've been protesting the events [00:18:00] of this week. The rally on Tuesday and our fantastic march tonight are a sign that the counter mobilisation is underway by supporters of the bill. We demand equality. We demand the human right to be ourselves. The bigots have declared war. We give them notice that our counter offensive has begun. We tell them we will win. If this bill is passed [00:18:30] in its present form, homosexuals from overseas will come to New Zealand in their thousands. New Zealand will be looked upon as the mecca for homosexuality for sodomy. What an attraction it is going to be to them. The Minister of Tourism be able to advertise New Zealand to homosexuals throughout the world. Come to New Zealand for sun, for sun, for scenery and safe sodomy and safe sodomy. In the last few weeks we've seen the start [00:19:00] of a second round and a particularly nasty campaign. And whilst Keith Hay and Peter Tate may not be have international standing of the Orange Queen Anita Bryant, the campaign has been no less organised or vicious. And it's only a start to the campaign for a theocratic state in New Zealand, and we know that they mean it. The proposal to launch a moral minority organisation is no secret and their plans to attack issues relating [00:19:30] to abortion, uh, to women, uh, relating to sex education and even Darwinian evolution, to name a few, show us the sweep of their attention over the last few months when it comes to Christianity. I think I've actually gained, as someone once said, a lot more sympathy for the Lions because that's the worst thing New Zealand's ever witnessed today. You mark that well, [00:20:00] I'd never thought I'd see this happen in New Zealand. Marching to legal is sodomy, not homosexuality. Oh, your right set up all your right get up, get out there and die! Give up the fight to all you lesbians and gay men. It's heartening to see so many of you brave enough to throw open the closet doors and march tonight. In the past, we have been [00:20:30] easily silenced and we have been made invisible. Tonight we are saying we have had enough. The opponents of this bill have made their intentions quite clear. Consequently, none of us can afford not to be involved. At least on the streets. It's possible to see the opposition and meet them head on. Hidden away in a closet somewhere. You are easy. Pray don't be fooled. A closet is not a safe place. It will not protect you [00:21:00] in a closet. You are alone and vulnerable. So come out. Come out now and fight back. Um awkward Jo, right? No shot not coming from me. I will. And [00:21:30] the law love to go. Well, what Mhm has a football leather? God don't say. Is that wrong? [00:22:00] Oh, yeah. Jesus loved you. Hello, little girl. Can I? How old are you? I'm fine. I go to school so you can sign your I have a dotted line. Say that [00:22:30] Jesus loved you, child. Join the fight against human rights. Join the Salvation Army. Yeah, right, right. What do you think of the Salvation [00:23:00] Army joining in the March today? I think it was very good of them to come to our support. It's the first time they've given a public exhibition of support, and especially to provide the music for us was really helpful because we often have trouble maintaining our own rhythm. I noticed the Salvation Army people here were really joining into the lesbian and gay chants. Do you think they really support lesbian and gay rights? They were clapping in time with our chat more than in time with their music. It was pretty amazing. But from some of the conversations that are going on around about between gay men and lesbians and members of the Salvation Army, I wouldn't be under any illusion that most of them are still strongly opposed to lesbian and gay rights. [00:23:30] It was wonderful. It was very supportive of them to turn out like that. Especially in so many. I've always believed in them. I did all my friends said No, no, no. You've been naive. But I knew they'd come through in the end and their bans were lovely. And they've said they've promised us the band for our next march too. So I thought that was lovely. They banged in time. If you you've ripped up, you ripped up, [00:24:00] up, up, up and scream and shout Bye, I three No, I am drinking. I li the word of God. Here's our guys. We are proud to be called Bible bangers Love. We are not bigots [00:24:30] peaceful and we have righteousness on our side. This table has we have free speech In our society, we are a free and democratic society. What we are doing is trying to restrict our rights, all of our rights, not just the gay and lesbian community. This is what Hitler's Germany was like. [00:25:00] I want you all to sing when you do a national anthem because that is my song and your song. It doesn't belong to them. Can you sing it? Who can? Bye. Yeah, [00:25:30] boy. Ok, right. Drive a [00:26:00] OK that during Christmas I tried to make my own personal assessment of what we achieved during 1985. Um, public discussion of the nature of homosexuality was probably the most significant thing that happened. Uh, people were obliged to examine their own thinking [00:26:30] on the subject. And so much open discussion has not taken place before. Um, not in my recollection. Um, the greater an anti reform petition had its day. And although it had grown out of a massive superstition, it showed us in the end that New Zealanders don't all set in the face of such bigotry. I think it showed us where our friends were. Organisations, groups and individuals began to speak out for reform simply because of the petition [00:27:00] had angered them. Um, the group I represent tonight was formed when the Reverend Bob Wilkie and his wife got together with some parents of homosexuals. And by discussing with the media our personal stories, we were able to make people who had never thought about it realise that homosexuality is part of many families and is something to be accepted and understood. In 1985 when you think about it, it had its lighter moments, and I, for one am still waiting for an explanation [00:27:30] of just what our norm our norm Jones was getting at the morning. He said on the radio from parliament buildings that if the bill went through, they might as well close the place down. The reporter said. You mean there are gay in the Beehive? And Norm said, I'm not saying anything about that. I'm just saying there'll be no work done in this place. I'm telling you like Bill, I've also been asked to sign the petition. I was asked in Queen Street in Auckland and was one of the [00:28:00] lighter moments of the campaign because these two middle aged women were standing outside an office block in the middle of Queen Street on a corner. And I knew these women were there because I'd walked in and out a couple of times, and when I walked in again, they stopped me and said, Would you like to sign a petition? And I said, Oh, what petition? And they said against the bill and I said, What Bill? And they said I was actually a bill, so I said, Oh, what's all that about? And we went [00:28:30] through all this and they told me what the bill was about and one of them did, and the other one looked at me very suspiciously and finally said, I know who you are. She was right. Yeah, yeah, with AIDS in the bill. Although this 85 is being the bill The sweet So you could say it's been a gay sort of year from Happy Birthday. Sweet 60 [00:29:00] is the day we waited for when it's wonky, illegal any moment. I can't believe my eyes and you're just this teenage queen. Happy Birthday! 3 60 On the ninth of July, the homosexual law reform bill was passed after much debate and misleading statements. [00:29:30] Rightfully so. Here is the third reading and vote. The question is that the homosexual law reform bill be now read a third time. The eyes are 49. The nose are 44. It will be third time [00:30:00] right of the gallery. Homosexual Law Reform bill. Third reading on morning report The morning after the bill was passed, the news was rightly dominated by the victory [00:30:30] and the trumpets of morning report. Good Morning, Geoff Robinson and Kim Hill here in the programme today, the controversial homosexual law reform bill is passed in Parliament. We'll be talking to those who support and oppose the measure, starting with the news Peter Fry. Good morning. The controversial homosexual law reform bill was passed through its final stages in parliament last night. The bill legalising homosexual acts between consenting adults over 16 was passed by 49 [00:31:00] votes to 44 a margin much greater than many expected. The debate was bitter to the end. There was a stinging attack by the Whangarei MP John Banks and his National Party colleague George Gere, who finally announced that if there could be no compromise on the age question, then he would support the bill. As it stood, the bill's promoter, Wellington Central MP Fran Wilde, was cheered and applauded by her supporters. But one of the main opponents of the bill, Invercargill, Norm Jones, says it was passed because parliament is made up mainly of Looney Leftists and bleeding heart liberals [00:31:30] who don't understand what the public wants. The AIDS Foundation has praised MPs for what it calls their courage in passing the legislation. It's 16 months since Wellington Central MP Fran Wilde introduced the homosexual law reform bill, and it's been a passionate, lengthy debate. The original bill set out not only to legalise sodomy but also to remove discrimination against homosexuals. That part of the bill however, was defeated along the way, and the age of consent became the central focus in recent months. As late as last night, [00:32:00] Hawke's Bay MP, Bill Sutton, tried unsuccessfully to have the bill sent back to committee stages for consideration of 18 as the age of consent. Opposition deputy leader George Gere led off last night's crucial debate, explaining he could not vote against the bill but had struggled to vote for it because of the age of consent being set at 16. There are some aspects of abstention that are appealing, but in the final analysis, a vote for abstention, I reasoned, was passing the responsibility over to others [00:32:30] and that I'm not prepared to do so. I was presented with what I feel is a difficult choice between two two propositions, neither of which I like, but one of which I like less than the other. So, sir, I will when the vote is taken, votes for the bill. But I grant you with considerable reluctance. Mr. Gere's pro reform declaration led to an attack from one of his own caucus, WGA MP John Banks, whose response typified divisions [00:33:00] within Parliament, some shallow handbag and weak rhetoric from the member for North Shore and historical dissertation of negligible substance of negligible substance. The member, halfway through his speech that was a [00:33:30] abstain speech until 70% of it was delivered, said the sponsors of this bill are asking for too much are asking for too much. He has obviously had considerable difficulty with his own conscience. The final vote was 49 in favour of the bill, 44 against a majority of five. Francois, the [00:34:00] bill's promoter, says getting the bill through parliament has not won all the battles for the homosexual community. I think there has been a change of attitude during the bill. The HALO polls have shown increasing support for the bill as the uh last year or so have gone on. But there is still a proportion of New Zealanders who will vilify and hate homosexual people, and I think that as a community, that is not a healthy outlook, and we should try and educate people to respect [00:34:30] differences. You lost part two of the bill fairly early on, and that was the anti discrimination part. How significant was that? That was significant. It applied, of course, not just to gay men but to lesbian women. And I was very sad that we lost that. Um I suspect some people voted against it simply to provide themselves with a little bit of political insurance, so they felt they could vote for part one of the bill. The strain been like for you personally over the months. And where do you go from here? Well, it's been a terrible strain to tell you the truth, but I [00:35:00] go now back to being the member for Wellington Central and the Government. We've been trying to put a bit more time into other issues. I'm certainly not contemplating another exercise of this nature in the near future. Did you at any stage doubt that it was all worthwhile? No, I didn't doubt, but sometimes I wondered what insanity had caused me to actually decide to do it in the first place. I must admit there were times when I thought I must have been mad to take it on, but I didn't doubt that I should have taken it on. And [00:35:30] while there were champagne corks popping in some quarters, opponents of the bill were disappointed at the outcome. Hierarchy MP Graham Lee, I am confirmed in my belief that in fact the people of this country will themselves ensure that this bill is finally defeated. A million people out there are going to take this issue up from now on, and I don't think it matters what we do as parliament. Uh, they will have seen, I believe, the fact that parliament has betrayed them. And Parliament [00:36:00] has done a particularly bad job on a bill that should been withdrawn because its importance, its sensitivity, its unique implications. And I believe they will take that power back into their hands and we'll see that in several forms may be repealed, but it'll certainly be the ballot box. The bill has only to receive the royal assent before becoming law from Parliament for Morning Report Cleared a Law One of the main opponents to the bill, the Salvation Army, had little to say [00:36:30] about last night's decision in Parliament. The Salvation Army says its views have been well aired in the past, but spokesman Major Rodney Knight had this prepared statement. We respect the Democratic. We had thought petitions were a respected part of that democratic process that Parliament has acted and Major Knight says the Salvation Army may elaborate further on its position if this becomes necessary. But on the opposite side of the fence, the [00:37:00] AIDS Foundation has praised what it calls the courage of the politicians who voted for the bill. The foundation has always been a strong supporter of homosexual law reform, and Chairman Kate Lesley says they're delighted with last night's result. She says the foundation will now be able to carry out far more effective AIDS prevention education programmes. She says fear of identification has prevented many men seeking information one of the major projects. We have a small group of people meeting together [00:37:30] to discuss changes of behaviour and safe sex. For many people, the change in legislation will make that much more possible and safe because in some areas people have not felt even able to do that, Kate Leslie says. If the bill had failed, the foundation's work would have been hampered considerably. This is Penny ST John from Morning and with us in the studio now is a spokesman for the Gay Task Force, Bill Lurgan. Good morning. Good ruling. How does it feel to be legal? Well, it hasn't really [00:38:00] sunk in yet. I suppose it feels like a moderate step has been made towards a more civilised sort of country, looking at the margin of only five votes and the bitter struggle over the last 16 months. Has New Zealand been enlightened or grudging towards homosexuals? Five votes is a good margin. I was expecting one vote. Governments have ruled for three years on one vote, five votes is a fine margin and there's been a movement in public opinion from [00:38:30] seven from 57% of the population supporting reform up to 64% of the population supporting reform. This debate has started to change attitudes. It has started to make life better for gays not only in law but in attitudes and attitudes is what's important. But the failure of the bill's supporters to compromise on the age of consent has been criticised. George Gere's final vote in favour wasn't given wholeheartedly, He said the bill's sponsors were asking for too much. Why were you prepared to lose everything [00:39:00] for the age of 16? It was important to give the message that it is OK to be gay, to say that you've got to have special laws to prevent certain categories of people from being involved in homosexual relationships. People who would be allowed to be involved in heterosexual relationships would be giving a message which would destroy the ability of young gay men to develop a positive self image. And that's a very [00:39:30] important part of anyone who is going to play a role in society. But the second part of the bill outlawing discrimination was defeated some time ago. So is anything going to change? Things are changing, attitudes are changing. It's quite clear that we have got to move to a world in which it is illegal to discriminate against gays in respect of work, jobs, housing, access to goods and services because those have got to be changed. [00:40:00] But we're making progress. Graham Lee, one of the opponents of the bill, has promised that the law will be repealed. Are you worried? Any reform like this has got to be seen as tenuous reversible, but I'm glad that Graham Lee and his friends are continuing their struggle because it's their struggle which has educated New Zealand, which has allowed a process in which opinion is changing and so we welcome [00:40:30] their continuing fight again, Norm Jones, another opponent of the bill, has said that 15 government MPs on small majorities could lose their seats because they voted in favour of the bill. Do you think that it will become an election issue? I'm sure there will be attempts to make it an election issue. We welcome that. Thank you, Bill Logan. [00:41:00] If you're gay or lesbian and feel you're the only person with a problem and there's no one there to talk to, you need a friendly ear. The Gay Lesbian Welfare Telephone is always available. Call 303 3584. If you're wanting social information, what's on in Auckland or where to go for a coffee and a friendly chat? The gay Lesbian Welfare telephone is always available. Call 303 3584. Unable [00:41:30] to ring, then drop us a line at Post Office Box 3132 Auckland. The Auckland Gay Lesbian welfare Serving Your community. Yeah, Icebreakers is a new group for young men under 26 who think [00:42:00] they may be gay or bisexual. It is a group for men not out in the gay community who are questioning their sexuality. Anyone who thinks they're interested in icebreakers should phone gay line 3033584 That's 3033584 and ask for more information on icebreakers [00:42:30] this week in gay history. July 8th to July 14th July 8th Journalist Radio Laor lecturer and political analyst Dorothy Thompson was born in New York in 18 [00:43:00] 94. She became an overnight sensation when Hitler expelled her from Germany because of her critical reports on Nazism. Peter Orlovsky, the poet, was born on this date in 1933. His greater fame, however, is as the lover of poet Allen Ginsberg. In 1986 the Homosexual Law Reform Bill was passed by the New Zealand Parliament. The Crimes Act of 1961 was amended so as to decriminalise consenting sexual activity between males [00:43:30] over the age of 16. In 1987 Louisiana becomes the first American state to require HIV antibody testing of couples seeking marriage licences. July The 10th French writer Marcel Prose was born today in 18 71 Pro suffered from chronic asthma and wrote mostly at night in a cork ward room. His vast novel Remembrance of Things Past recounts the life of his hero [00:44:00] virtually pulsed himself. It has no plot in the usual sense, but is closely woven together like a symphony by the recurrent of the same characters and the same themes. In 1981 and more than 30 gays picketed a Chamber of Commerce dinner held in San Francisco in of Wellington's mayor, Sir Michael Fowler, who was in the city to promote a sister city relationship with Wellington. Fowler was confronted for opposing the right of the Wellington Lesbian Centre to advertise on City Council buses. [00:44:30] July 11th. Porno star Jack Wrangler was born today in Los Angeles. In 1946 Jack is every inch of star he has to survive. He has. He has survived the May fly world of Poor, a flex in which the usual rate of turnover is high. Vito Russo, author of the groundbreaking history of film's view of homosexuality, The Celluloid Closet, is 44 years old Today. In 1986 [00:45:00] the Minister of Health, Dr Michael Bassett, opened the first clinic established by the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. The clinic was named in memory of Bruce Burnett, who was chiefly responsible for establishing the foundation, and he himself died from AIDS a year earlier. In 1987 Dr Tom Waddell, the man who brought into being the Gay Games, died in San Francisco aged 49 July, the 12th today in 1946. Benjamin Britton's opera The Rape [00:45:30] of Lucia had its first performance at Glen. Born July 13th in 1985 The Times of Harvey Milk had its first New Zealand screening at the Civic Theatre during the annual International Film Festival. The film covers the rise of Harvey Milk to the position of the first gay city supervisor in San Francisco before he and the then mayor George Mosconi were assassinated in 1978 July 14th. American playwright Arthur Lawrence [00:46:00] was born 72 years ago. Arthur wrote the Librato in both Gypsy and anyone can whistle. All gay people know what it's like to belong to a minority discrimination, funny looks, even abuse. We have to be tough, and [00:46:30] we need the support of gay friends who can understand because it's happened to them. There are people within the gay community who are not just part of a minority. They belong to a double minority. These people are not only gay, they also have a disability. And that at times means being super tough. Being disabled and gay can mean personal hassles that only other gay people with disabilities can really understand. We need to be able to talk to people in similar circumstances, learn from each other's experiences. Gay people [00:47:00] with disabilities need to support one another. If you are gay and have a physical disability and would like to be part of a support network, contact Phil through gay lesbian welfare. Phone 393 268. That's 393 268 and now for a free pass. Give way to [00:47:30] West Side now to qualify, you'll have to tell us the name of the singer coming up in this next record. Just ring up on 30202383020238! And Name the Singer. Now. This next song was brought out on a 45 on a label called Reso Records and was sold in gay venues. The proceeds went to support the homosexual law reform bill, now the name of the song is at the right time. By Judy Glenn. [00:48:00] Yeah, that and the win Welcome. Come on. [00:48:30] [00:49:00] [00:49:30] [00:50:00] [00:50:30] [00:51:00] [00:51:30] [00:52:00] [00:52:30] This week. What's on for gay men and lesbians. Team Auckland Gala Weekend, the final fundraising event and Bon Voyage. Three great parties to send off the team in great style. Thursday, [00:53:00] the 19th of July. A black and white party at Don't tell Mumma Saturday. The 21st of July is a party at Staircase with the outrageous Troll Dolls. And on Sunday, the 22nd of July, there is a grand finale at Alfie's with the Fabulous Bloomers. Tickets. $10 for the event, or $20 for all three tickets are available from Team Auckland members. Don't tell Mummers Staircase, Alfie, the Out Book Shop and other gay venues [00:53:30] come along for a great time and celebrate with Team Auckland. The Auckland Film Festival is here includes several movies of interest to gays and lesbians. They are on Sunday, the 15th of July at 1:30 p. m. James Baldwin and The Price of the Ticket, a documentary on the life of gay author James Baldwin. On Sunday, the 22nd of July at 1:30 p. m. common threads. Stories from The Quilt, a documentary on the AIDS Memorial quilt, started [00:54:00] in San Francisco and on Sunday, the 22nd of July at 5:30 p. m. and Monday, the 23rd of July at 2:15 p. m. Wild Flowers. The story of a woman and her lesbian daughter. Thursday the 26th of July at 5:45 p. m. Apartment zero aria where the conflict centres and the attraction between two men. And finally, on Saturday, the 28th of July at 1 p. m. and 6 p. m. tongues untied and looking for Langston, [00:54:30] two documentaries that explore black American gay culture. But in the meantime, go and see Lawrence of Arabia on at the region in the city at 1:37 p. m. every day. The Lesbian Support and Social Group has been reformed and meets every Tuesday night at the Women's Centre 63 Ponsonby Road. This is open to all lesbian women and starts at 7 p. m. Contact Karen Care of Lesbian Support Group, PO Box 3833. Auckland, Gle. Gays [00:55:00] and lesbians in education as a group for everyone in education, from early childhood to tertiary institutions and Associated Fields. Contact Allen on 609 472. Or write to Isherwood Trust, PO. Box 5, 426. Well, Street or the Lesbian Ball has been rescheduled for Saturday, the 18th of August, at the university cafeteria at the same venue. The committee extend their apologies to anyone inconvenienced by the misunderstanding [00:55:30] and booking that caused the postponement of the last month's ball. Repeat. The Lesbian ball is now Saturday, the 18th of August. The Isherwood Trust invites you to join and support the Auckland Lesbian Gay Community and Health Centre Project. The costs are $25 waged or $15 unwaged or simply make a donation right. Two. The Isherwood Trust 5426 Wellesley Street, Auckland. One. That's PO. Box 5, 426 Wellesley Street, Auckland. [00:56:00] One or phone 302 590 Monday to Friday That's 302 590. A new leaflet for the Gay Man is Mr Wright. The idea of this publication is discrete ads in which to put you in contact with potential new partners and friends. Ads are free to insert, but cost. $5 to reply. Postal address is Mr Wright PO Box 6430, Welly Street, Auckland. That's PO. [00:56:30] Box 6430 well street in Auckland, Gay space Coffee evenings are brigades of all ages every Thursday. Eight till 10 p. m. 45 ANZAC Avenue at the Auckland Gay and Lesbian Welfare rooms on the third floor phone. Gay line. 303 3584. That's gay line 303 3584. For more information. This is a venue where you can meet new friends in a comfortable atmosphere over coffee. [00:57:00] On next week's programme, there will be an interview with the Metropolitan [00:57:30] Community Church about their new hostel and also looking at issues on gay parenting. Well, that's all for tonight. It's good night, from Owen on panel and Andy Algoa and Good Night from Jenny and Good Night from Neil. Good Night.

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PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/gay_radio_27_june_1982.html
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TITLE: Gay Radio (27 June 1982)
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TAGS: 1980s; Gay Radio; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Wellington; Wellington Gay Switchboard; activism; consciousness raising; gay liberation movement; homosexual law reform; inaugural event; media; radio; societal attitudes; societal norms; stereotypes
DATE: 27 June 1982
YEAR: 1982
LOCATION: Wellington Access Radio, 1st Floor, 35/37 Ghuznee Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: This Gay Radio programme is mainly a repeat of a recording made a year earlier during Pride Week 1981 and broadcast on Wellington Access Radio. This earlier content is possibly the first gay-produced (by, for and about) radio broadcast in New Zealand, broadcasting on 28 June 1981.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Today. Sunday. The 27th of June is the first day of gay pride. Week 1982 as an introduction to Gay Pride Week. We'd like to replay gay radio first broadcast during Gay Pride Week last year. Yeah, well, I think we all know, um, most of us know from a very early age. [00:00:30] Um, we have an intrinsic feeling whether that we're sort of somehow different. Um, perhaps not everyone actually defines it or or puts a word on it until, um, they're a bit older. Maybe in their late teens. Um, with some people, it's gonna even go on until they, um you know, into them middle age. Um, it sort of varies quite a bit. Um, and you don't actually tend to, um, to form your own personality [00:01:00] as being gay and living as a gay person until sort of, you know, after you've been out for a few years. And, uh, I was quite fortunate that, uh, that we met and have been living together for for two years now, and and that sort of has helped me develop personally, um, we we identify with the, um you know, with with our own sex I mean, as as a gay male. I don't wish to become a woman, nor do I feel [00:01:30] that I you know, I am particularly feminine, and I have no doubts about my masculinity. Um, I don't wish to be a woman, and I don't wish to dress in women's clothing. I think this is probably, um, part of the fear that people have about us. I mean, you know, we're we're everywhere. We we we're much the same as as the average, um, sort of Joe blogs in the street. We're really not much different in the final analysis. But, um, I think people like to delude themselves that, um, we are different [00:02:00] by creating these weird stereotypes so that it isolates the whole question of homosexuality from them. Therefore, because it's this, it's portrayed as a strange kind of stereotype. They therefore don't have to fear it quite so much because it's not, um, it's not normal, and they are basically it means I'm free. That means I'm free from what I see is the repressive male stereotypes that are forced on men in our society, you know, because I don't fit into them because I love [00:02:30] other men. Um, and because I don't fit into the the stereotypes they have for queers and ers and fairies, you know, I means I've got to define my own lifestyle. I've got to define my own values, Um, and the way I choose to live my life and that gives me a hell of a lot of freedom to, um, to explore different alternatives. I'm I'm not straitjacketed by the by what's expected of me. Um, it means I'm free [00:03:00] to be emotional to show emotions. I can cry if I want to. Um, you know, I don't have to be frightened of of admitting that I like flowers, for instance, or that I like doing unmanly things. It means that I can be open in my relationships with other men and with and with women, uh, it becomes a lot easier. Men are expected to to, uh, treat women as sex objects. But when you don't relate to women sexually, [00:03:30] you can treat them as full human beings. I had been living with a woman for two years before I came out. The only reason why I came out was I fell head over heels in love with a man, Uh, which completely threw me. And, um, it meant it meant a hell of a long time, but it meant about six months of basically, it was sheer hell, because my whole world had crumbled around me, [00:04:00] and I had to had to sort it all out again. You know, I had to sort out my relationship with Helen, the woman I was living with. Um, And as it turned out, we stopped living together. Um, I had to sort of sort my own mind out where I stood with all my friends. Um, And then what was off? The most anxious part was, um here I was. I knew I was gay, but I didn't know any other gay men because the man who I fell in love with was up in Auckland. Um, [00:04:30] so perhaps one of the most anxious moments I had were trying to make contact with other gay men and not knowing what to expect. My flatmates. Well, they really pushed me into meeting meeting other gays. One of them even dragged me along to the first meeting I ever went to with other gay. Where there are other gays was one of the gay pride meetings, great gay Pride Week meetings. Um, and [00:05:00] all my friends, the interesting bit is none of them were surprised to find out that I was gay. Um, and they were all incredibly supportive, especially Helen Thorman. I used to live with. So that was a great help in the time that I was sort of reassessing work, you know, my entire life it's can sometimes be hard at work. You hear anti gay jokes and so on. You sometimes lack the energy to actually jump [00:05:30] up and do anything about them. Everywhere you go, you can hear anti gay jokes. You can odd comments, people pass in the street. Also, you're subjected just to the great barrage of heterosexual ideas. The big romantic movies you see in the cinema which are always heterosexual, which have got the man and the woman running off happily hand in hand into the sunset at the end. That type of thing is oppressive. [00:06:00] Well, being where I am now, of course, I'd know what to do because I'm in the middle of it all. Um, if I wasn't I don't know, I'd probably look in the personal columns in the newspaper I might perhaps find a copy of out or pink triangle in a news agent in town. Uh, I might, for instance, see the advertisement for the Wellington Gay switchboard in the newspaper and phone them up to [00:06:30] find out what there is. Well, the switchboard has been set up, um, primarily as an information service with a view to, um, acting as a telephone counselling service. Um, when we can develop the the resources and the people, um, trained to to be able to do it. Um, but basically, at the moment, it is just an information service. The types of calls that we generally get are are fairly varied. Um, most [00:07:00] of them, however, are gay people wanting to know where they can meet other gay people. Um, and that is basically what we are sort of designed to do at the moment. Generally, the sorts of problems that most well, not necessarily most, but that a lot of, um, gay people face is that of isolation and loneliness. Um, and we hope to overcome some of these things by, um uh, in the long term, bringing people [00:07:30] out of themselves, helping them to accept and acknowledge their sexuality to try and develop a positive image about themselves. A lot of straight, um, people, particularly men, have this kind of paranoia that they they think it's actually possible, um, for them to be converted, um, and it's manifest in the in the fear, which they often show towards us. Um, I mean, if if a man is some secure about his own sexuality, then he should [00:08:00] he should he should have nothing to actually, um, you know, fear by by the presence of another gay person. Yet a lot of straight men are very, very, um upset. And, um, quite, uh, freaked out by, you know, suddenly discovering that a close work associate of theirs is gay or a close friend of theirs is gay. We generally call this homophobia. I mean, there there's no way that a person's sexual orientation can be changed. I mean, there's no way that a person who is essentially heterosexual can be can be changed unless [00:08:30] he has those intrinsic sorts of qualities anymore than I can be turned into a heterosexual by some kind of crazy psychotherapy. I mean, this is what they used to do to us. We've been we've been, um, tortured in all sorts of of guises in the hope of making us normal. I mean, aversion therapy is a classical example of this sort of thing. And it has been practised, you know, in years gone by. And anyone who's, for example, seen clockwork Orange knows what the implications of aversion therapy are all about. [00:09:00] Um, you know, we don't We're quite happy as we are. We don't want to change. We don't need to change. Um, I am not sick. It is the attitudes of society which is sick. The direction I'm heading in is for the destruction of the present society and the creation of a new kind of society in which everybody is free to be what he or she wants to be rather than what the Pope or Miss Bartlett tells us to be. The Society for the Prevention of Community Standards. What do you think they're [00:09:30] on about? Basically, they were very right, right wing organisation that sort of dedicated to maintaining what That what was the status quo many years ago? Um, being essentially Christian based, they tend to interpret the Bible as they were told to interpret it when they were Children. I see it as a as a middle aged organisation, middle aged and older, who want to return to the good old days. Back when men were men [00:10:00] and women were women and wars were wars and everybody went to them and killed each other. And it was wonderful. Um I. I think they're very narrow minded and they were and repress people themselves. I think they have to be just, you know, for for them to think in the way that they do and to deny other people their you know, the rights to think for themselves. I just I really can't comprehend it myself. I can [00:10:30] only think of it in the terms of bigotry. A section of Wellington's gay community has attacked the society for the promotion of community standards for what it sees as the society's oppression of homosexual rights. About a dozen people picketed a society meeting in Wellington last night in what spokesman John Thor says is just the beginning of protest action against the society. Mr Thor says the society has been campaigning to have gay publications banned by calling them pornographic. He says the society sees homosexuals [00:11:00] as a threat because they lead a lifestyle different from the traditional one. Demonstrations like this object to them quite entitled to put their point of view. You know, any gay people? Well, I couldn't be sure of that. I don't know. Not to my knowledge, not to my knowledge [00:11:30] about people. I do know. Quite a lot of gay people. Yes. And do you support their issues? Their rights? I do very much. What do you hope to hear or otherwise at the meeting today? I am here to try and pick up the distortions, the exaggerations, the misuse of statistics, uh, gross attacks on groups who are trying to make it a more civilised community. [00:12:00] Uh, we're here to protest at the SP CS action in attempting to ban certain gay and lesbian literature which we don't consider to be pornographic. They aren't making the distinction between pornography and legitimate gay and lesbian material. And we're going to turn up to more and more of these sorts of meetings and voice our protest because we consider the SP CS to be an instrument [00:12:30] of oppression. Right? No way. Excuse me. Do you support gay rights? No comment. What do you feel about the people outside. What do you feel about the people outside? You know what they're protesting against? What do you What are they talking about? Do you know? Oh, they they, um I don't know that the gay they're gays, [00:13:00] I don't know. It is to introduce to your world figure who has saved his life on the part of a worthwhile purpose. Mr. Lemon Goer is a lawyer from Los Angeles who works with the legal staff of the citizens of Law. So I'm here to discuss kind of a controversial subject. Obviously, that's the first [00:13:30] time in all my years of experience I've had that kind of a greeting jumping into the hall and I share the prayer that was offered up to those people. It's unfortunate that their viewpoint could be that different than that of ours and how they could possibly turn what most of us would consider to be just on its face, an evil thing. It was something they considered to be good. It's hard to imagine, But again, I think it was indicated we should pray for them and maybe pray for ourselves if people have to be imposed too strongly by what they're doing. But that's the first time even in [00:14:00] I've been in the, uh, so called homosexual capitals of the world, I guess in San Francisco and even parts of Los Angeles. And yet I've never seen that kind of a protest at a public meeting, so it's very kind of interesting. So give me something to tell about when I get back home that I was Yes, I did come to New Zealand. I [00:14:30] I am appalled that people will stand up and have two sanctimonious prayers condemning people and at the same time saying that so and would you please pray until the speaker is finished? And then you can have your safe if you wish that one, Thank you very much [00:15:00] out there are saying something, and you are so narrow minded that you refuse. A couple of years ago, lesbian and gay groups made submissions to the Human Rights Commission. Could you tell us something about those submissions and the outcome of them? I could tell you that those submissions were aimed at a situation in which no distinction would be made between men and women or between heterosexual and homosexual. [00:15:30] The outcome is quite clear. The Human Rights Commission and the government said, Go and get lost. We want to preserve a distinction between men and women. We want to preserve a distinction between heterosexual and homosexual, and we want to preserve it in such a way that heterosexuals have all the privileges and homosexuals have none. I get well, I get very angry with them because they're so small minded and so conservative. I'm willing to to accept arguments or even to argue rationally back with you. Uh, if they could argue rationally with [00:16:00] with me or with any any other gay activists and you know, I'd have a damp up more respect for the for their findings no matter which way they went. But when they refused to argue, they refused to discuss their findings. And I think, Well, basically what? Why? Why do they refuse to discuss it? Because they're scared? Well, because they don't have any confidence. Rather in the findings that they that they have come to and when people like that are in a position of power and you can't question their authority, there are no [00:16:30] you know. But the only thing you can do is go to the ombuds person who happens to be a member of the Human Rights Commission anyway, So they've got a fat chance there. And people like that sort of have an ultimate authority, an ultimate say over the lives of thousands of New Zealanders. And I think they abuse their power, which gets me really angry. But what you know, it's a question of what you can. What can you do about it? You can get really angry. You can go out and and, um, pick up the place and that. But essentially, you're banging your head against a brick [00:17:00] wall. Um, so you know, I, I prefer to. Well, things like that will get me very angry, and I will go do some political act or write letters to the ministers to the to the papers, et cetera. I prefer to put my energy into something which would have a more positive result, such as counselling or, um, welfare work or just raising my own consciousness. I think about the only way you raise your consciousness is by talking [00:17:30] about things by discussing them, turning them inside out and just sort of analysing an entire problem or an aspect of life that maybe you haven't analysed in any depth before. And it's only by doing that that you will be able to raise your consciousness and with respect to that particular issue. And if if non gay people don't don't talk about it or aren't prepared to even think about it, then, um they're never going to be able to see past these stereotypes. And I think a lot of them men particularly, [00:18:00] um, find it frightening to have to think past their stereotypes. For instance, you know the the man at work. Yeah, they all know that I'm gay, but they constantly keep making these, um, put downs. Not to me, because I wouldn't dare to do that. But, you know, to each other, sort of saying, What are you or something? That sort of thing. Um, if I'm around, I'll question it straight away. But it's the constant little putdowns like that [00:18:30] that I think really do a lot of harm. And they they create a within the people who use them, too. They create a very negative image. Are you a Are you a No, No. I just want to remind you of the faculty rules rule one Rule two, now member of the faculty, is to maltreat the A in any way at all. If there's anybody watching Rule three. No Rule Four. Now, this time I don't want to catch anybody. Not drinking. Rule [00:19:00] five No Rule six. There is no Rule six Rule Seven that concludes the reading of the rules. Usually they say very negative things about us. I mean, how many jokes do you hear about queens Puffs or whatever? Um, most of them, um, are designed to make fun of the person concerned. And every time we laugh at that sort of joke, we put ourselves down. Oh, I love the way you were doing that. Oh, thank you. I've had a bit [00:19:30] of a morning on the bench. I could stamp my little feet the way those C carry on. Objection here. That objection there and that Nice constable giving that evidence so well, beautiful speaking voice after a bit, there was nothing I could do except bang me gavel, you love I bang my gavel. Oh, I did the silence in court, but oh, if lots of that prosecuting counsel been for 30 years, how did you swim up Well, I was quite pleased, actually. I was trying to do it in. But you know what? The jury must understand. And, you know, [00:20:00] I could see that form. I really Yes. Devil. Anyway, I finished up with Was that tall man with a very big just a minute. I must tell you, I finished up with the actions of these vicious men are a violent stain on the community, and the full penalty of the law is hardly strong enough to deal with their crimes. And I just I it was you remember that time? That super room in the manslaughter? Well, of course, this is all based upon [00:20:30] a number of types for for gay men, the stereotypes, Um, someone who, um, speaks with a lisp falsetto voice wears high heels and, um, you know, generally is very effeminate, and generally that's that's very untrue. I mean, there are a number of effeminate males around. Some of them are homosexual. Some of them are not. Some of them are heterosexual. Um, this is a stereotype which, which the straight world had Well, perhaps I shouldn't say straight which the heterosexual world [00:21:00] has. And really, um, you know, a lot of the time we we don't look significantly different from anybody else. Um, Similarly, for gay women, the, um, stereotype there is often of, um, you know, a very masculine type of woman who sort of wears gum, boots and smokes and drum and all your owns. But, you know, that's not again. That's a false stereotype. I think also, when they don't treat the subject and it's stereotypical [00:21:30] way, they just ignore it usually. And that in itself creates well. If it's if the subject is not raised, people won't think about it. People won't have a question. Whatever attitudes they've got towards it, and by ignoring it, they you know, it's effectively, um, discriminating against us. I think, for instance, close to home is quite happy to deal with bomb threats and murders and, um, marriage [00:22:00] breakdowns and premarital sex and all sorts of other wonderful things that are real life. But they consider homosexuality as as too controversial issue for them to possibly bring up. Editors have got this, um, problem with us. They're scared of their audience or what they think their audience will accept and will believe, and you get scandal magazines like truth who who will just quite happily destroy somebody. [00:22:30] Um, just so they can get a leading feature. They don't They don't care about that person. Basically, all they care about is scandal you and you're meant to be shocked by it. The people who buy it buy it because they want to be shocked. They want to, um, think, Oh, God, isn't this terrible? Isn't this horrible? And this is the way these people live and you know it. It forces just the, um, social attitudes that that already exist. It doesn't get people to think about it or question it. The listener is slightly better, though [00:23:00] it appears to have changed its stance on that. Now, um, other magazines generally confine themselves just a reporting fact. You know, you might get a feature article on a dog's home or something, but you'd never get something on a gay community centre. Well, regardless of those opinions, the basic structure of society is still the same. It is heteros. It's based on the nuclear family. It's based on the idea of [00:23:30] heterosexual marriage of pro producing Children who will go on and do the same thing of working hard of making lots of money. Society is still like that and still the same. And it's that sort of society which oppresses us. Can you give us any idea of what a society should be that would accept gay people accept other minority groups? That's a very hard question. I don't really know. That's something I'm always thinking about. It's one of those [00:24:00] things we talk about when we get together. It will be a society which is not based on hierarchies society, which won't be based on the oppressive use of power. It all sounds very idealistic, Um, whether or not we can ever get it to work in practise, I don't know I, I really hope so. And with some of the groups I'm involved and with some of the, uh, the the with the circle of friends I have, [00:24:30] I think that I might be doing something to help build up a small, supportive community based along, I hope, better lines. It's really not possible for any radical group to describe the kind of society that it's going to create if you work in with groups of gay people, and I've heard many feminists describe the same thing in working with groups of women when you see the huge amount of creativity and almost unlimited energy [00:25:00] that women working together can unleash or gays working together can unleash. You'd have to be a fool to predict the form and nature of the society that those people are going to create once they're allowed to achieve their objectives and to have a whole human race in which every woman, every gay every black person is freely contributing is freely, uh, participating in that society. You know, we we're envisaging something that, uh, no [00:25:30] human being has any perception of. At present, you've been listening to gay radio from the lesbian gay media Collective if you'd like information on gay Pride. Week 1982. Phone the gay switchboard on Wellington 728609. Any night this week, that's 728609. We'll be back next Sunday at two o'clock with another gay radio programme. [00:26:00] I don't of the stuff about the guys I can.

IRN: 277
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/gay_radio_4_july_1982.html
ATL REF: 
ATL URL: 
TITLE: Gay Radio (4 July 1982)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; Gay Blue Jeans Day; Gay Community Centre (Wellington); Gay Pride Week; Gay Radio; International Gay Solidarity Day; Lesbian Gay Media Collective; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Out (magazine); Pink Triangle (magazine); Wellington; Wellington Access Radio; Wellington Gay Switchboard; activism; human rights; lesbian gay masquerade ball; media; radio
DATE: 4 July 1982
YEAR: 1982
LOCATION: Wellington Access Radio, 1st Floor, 35/37 Ghuznee Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: This Gay Radio programme contains an interview with Chris about the Gay Community Centre in Wellington.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: That's Tom Robinson on gay radio this afternoon. I'm talking to Chris from Wellington's Gay Community Centre. Chris, why was the gay community centre set up? Uh, we set up the community centre to, uh, to offer an alternative to the established gay scene in Wellington, which is dominated, perhaps by loud noise and and alcohol. [00:00:30] We wanted to get away from that to to provide a sort of friendly atmosphere where those who are coming out for the first time could find it easy and relaxing. Um, also a place where those who'd been around for some time could come back to, um we found premises in Wellington and set the place up, and it got going from there. The sort of people who come down here is a real mixture, um, those [00:01:00] who are just beginning to come out for the first time, those who? The ones who have just realised that they're gay. Uh, but they want to actually start meeting other gay people that they want to, um, find what it's like to be in a in A in a supportive atmosphere. Gay people face a lot of pressures from family from workmates, [00:01:30] Uh, just from the whole of the heterosexual society and the community centre functions as an alternative to all of that. Um, you know, you you come down here and the pressures of having to worry about what other people will think, uh, don't exist anymore. Over the years, well, the two years the centre has been going, um, I guess we've seen [00:02:00] several 100 people passed through here. Some have just come once, um, and gone away again. Others have kept coming back. Um, there's a steady core of people who usually come along each evening, the numbers we get, usually between about 10 and 30. At the moment, the centre is open for three nights a week. That's on Wednesdays, Fridays and Saturdays. It opens at about eight [00:02:30] o'clock and runs through till about 10 30 or so. Information about the centre is obtainable from the gay switchboard, which can be reached at 728609. That's 728609. And the switchboard runs on Wednesday and Saturday nights from seven o'clock to 10 o'clock. [00:03:00] Another track from Tom Robinson on Access Gay radio. We're talking to Chris from Wellington's Gay Community Centre. Chris. How did Gay Pride Week this year compare with Gay Pride Weeks in previous years, it's been quieter this year than other years. Uh, most of the activity has been directed within the gay community. Um, other years [00:03:30] we've had major public relations exercises like marches, uh, this year, for a change. Most of the activity has just simply been one of ordinary existing gay venues like the Community Centre, extending their hours opening themselves through the week, providing just an extended service. In that way, although on International Gay Solidarity Day, which was last Monday, we [00:04:00] sent the leader leaders of the three main political parties, a green car nation each. This was to remind them of the green incarnation, which Oscar Wilde wore as a symbol of his gayness, and, um, to remind them of their commitment to providing equal rights for lesbians and gay men in New Zealand. Um, it's the sort of thing that we find attracts good publicity. Um, [00:04:30] and even if the people concerned didn't really wear their carnations, uh, we still think that was a worthwhile exercise Friday, of course, was Blue Jeans Day. Uh, that's the Day of the and Gay Pride Week when we advertise that anyone wearing blue jeans is going to be supporting gay rights. Now, of course, what happens sometimes is that people wear blue jeans who don't support gay rights and they get to work and they suddenly [00:05:00] feel a moment of panic and terror when they suddenly get suspected of supporting gay rights. Because they are there in their blue jeans that, um can help get across our case. It can. It can make people suddenly realise what it's like to feel that they are being questioned, that they are an oppressed minority. [00:05:30] She couldn't found each other, and we can sing and live. I am the Berkeley Woman's music co op, Gay and Proud Today Sunday the Fourth of July, The last day of Gay Pride Week 1982. Chris. [00:06:00] What other events are they coming up? Well, the the big social event of the year, Um, and in fact, one of the biggest social events that I can remember happening in Wellington for a long time is the lesbian gay masquerade ball. This is going to be on Saturday, the 10th of July in the overseas passenger terminal. I'll repeat that again. It's the lesbian gay masquerade ball on Saturday, the 10th of July. [00:06:30] Um, uh, the price of the ticket includes admission to the ball. It includes the band and a disco as well as a supper. There'll also be a bar provided at the ball. Um, and we're encouraging all those who come along to take part in the spirit of the occasion by dressing up in something, a chance for everyone to come along as their as their favourite fantasy [00:07:00] as the person they'd really like to be, perhaps. Or maybe is the person that most of all, like not to be. Uh, tickets for that are obtainable from the Gay community Centre. And further information can be obtained from the gay switchboard, which is 728609. I repeat that 728609. That sounds really interesting, Chris. I'd like to find out about other things that are happening in the gay community. What are the information services are there? [00:07:30] Apart from the gay switchboard in Wellington, in New Zealand, there are two national gay magazines. One of these is called Pink Triangle, and, uh, that's published monthly from Wellington. It's, uh, contains items of news about what's happening in New Zealand and also overseas, as well as comment letters to the editor, um, a very lively, well put together paper. Also coming [00:08:00] from Auckland is a publication called Out, which is published once every two months. It, um, offers information on the commercial gay scene and also has some very lively articles in it. Both of these magazines provide information about gay organisations throughout the country. What's on say in Christchurch, where it is when it is how to find out more [00:08:30] about it, and they're obtainable from most of the larger news agents around town. Thanks, Chris. If you'd like a free sample copy of Pink Triangle, a lesbian and gay community newspaper, write to the Lesbian Gay Media Collective at Post Office Box 507 Wellington. That's for a free sample copy of Pink Triangle, right to the Lesbian Gay Media Collective at Post Office, Box 507 Wellington. [00:09:00] Look forward to hearing from you and don't forget about the lesbian gay masquerade ball. Tickets are available from the Gay Community Centre. Phone 728609. You're listening to access gay radio.

IRN: 274
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/gay_bc_28_june_1986.html
ATL REF: 
ATL URL: 
TITLE: Gay BC (28 June 1986)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Peter Nowland
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; AIDS Support Network; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bill Sutton; Bruce Burnett; Bruce Burnett Clinic (Auckland); Eve van Grafhorst; Gay BC (Wellington Access Radio); Gay Morning New Zealand (Gay BC); Graeme Lee; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Michael Bassett; Parliament buildings; Peter Nowland; Rob Lake; Stonewall riots (1969); Wellington; activism; gay; homosexual law reform; human rights; law; media; politics; programme; radio
DATE: 28 June 1986
YEAR: 1986
LOCATION: Wellington Access Radio, 1st Floor, 35/37 Ghuznee Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Gay BC (Broadcasting Collective) was a community radio programme that broadcast weekly on Wellington's Access Radio from 1985 to the 1990s.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi. Welcome to Gay Morning, New Zealand for Saturday, the 28th of June 1986. Today is Stonewall Day and commemoration of the Stonewall Riot in New York on the 28th of June 1969. That was the start of gay liberation, and it was also the day Judy Garland was buried. Good piece of useless information there. Today is also the birthday of American gay footballer Dave Coupe, a professional athlete who came out in 1975 and caused [00:00:30] quite a stir. Well, that's my 30 seconds up. I'll be back in a moment with ABC News. I met you at you very nice you were with him. 30 seconds. Tell you everything I've seen. Why [00:01:00] you're listening to Gay Morning, New Zealand. It's 25 minutes to 12, and that's time for ABC News. A group of nine parents and teachers at Hastings Rudolph Steiner School are arranging an AIDS information meeting for the school's committee. The Hastings School is still considering whether to enrol a child with AIDS. Eve van Grapo. Meanwhile, the Little Rock Anna [00:01:30] USA. Maggie Knox, a health service specialist with the American Red Cross, told a parent teachers conference this week that the chances of AIDS spreading among Children in the classroom are about the same as being hit by lightning on a sunny day. Rob Lake, a spokesperson for Shea, the Campaign for Homosexual Equality, said on Tuesday that the age of consent for anal intercourse should not be raised to 18 years on the homosexual law reform bill. He said that the bill is likely to be recommitted for consideration in the committee stages, in which case Bill Sutton's amendment [00:02:00] of 18 years for anal intercourse and 16 years for other homosexual activity will probably be adopted. Rob Blake said the Campaign for Homosexual Equality entirely rejects a proposal and calls on MPs to throw out the rec committal motion and to vote for an age of consent of 16. The debate on the bill will continue on Wednesday night. Don't miss it, it's only your lives they're debating. Meanwhile, law reform opponent Graham Lee has had to back track on statements he made recently. Last month, Graeme Lee issued a statement which contained photocopied pages [00:02:30] from the New Zealand section of the Spartacus International Gay Guide. However, he was accused of infringing copyright and on Wednesday revisited all the journalists to which the statement had been given to try to get the offending pages back. The Spartacus International Gay Guide gives details of bars, clubs, discos and other places where gays meet in New Zealand. I wonder if it mentions Parliament. Graham Lee felt that the international directory showed that homosexuality was highly organised and on the increase. Nice try, Graham. But it is true. A recent survey by the Coalition of Concerned Citizens of [00:03:00] West Auckland bigots has found that most people who signed last year's anti gay petition would do so again. They also found in the Tiatto electorate that 240 people were dissatisfied with their MP, Dr Michael Bassett, voting for the homosexual law reform bill. The coalition's press release yesterday did not state which Salvation Army Citadel. The survey was done outside New Zealand's lesbian and gay population has risen by 13,210 according to figures released this week by the government statistician. The recent census show that the homosexual increase [00:03:30] occurred mostly in the North Island. New Zealand's lesbians and gays now number approximately 330,000 1007 184 Wellington's lesbian and gay population has increased by 1. 4 per cent to approximately 32,780. These figures are, of course, based on the assumption that nine out of 10 people are through no fault of their own, neither lesbian nor gay. The vice chancellor of Waikato University said yesterday that the university will not discriminate against homosexuals among staff or students. The [00:04:00] University Council recently expanded its policy of seeking to be an equal opportunity employer. Applicants for jobs will be told that Waikato University does not discriminate on grounds of sexual orientation, religion, sex or race. New Zealand's first AIDS Outpatients clinic will be named after Bruce Burnett founder and until his death last year, co ordinator of the AIDS support Network. The Burnett Clinic at Auckland Hospital will be officially opened on the 11th of July by Minister of Health Michael Bassett. Meanwhile, the Wellington Hospital Board and the AIDS Foundation [00:04:30] have still not settled on their differences over what form an AIDS clinic for Wellington should take. The proposed AIDS clinic has not been discussed in public public board meetings for more than six weeks, Wellington Board Medical Superintendent and chief Brian Cole said a full separate AIDS clinic is not warranted. The position of counsellor for the clinic is to be re advertised despite consideration of four applicants earlier this month. Scientists earlier this week ended a three day international AIDS conference in Paris on a note of optimism about prospects for fighting the killer [00:05:00] disease. United States AIDS specialist Robert Gallo said that by next year, scientists should have a full understanding of the AIDS virus and be ready to develop practical ways of arresting the disease. Earlier in the conference, scientists from San Francisco, Seattle and Strasbourg, France, reported successful experiments of genetically engineered products that prevented AIDS in the test tube. Conference Chairperson Professor Jean Claude Gluckman said that all researchers agreed that genetic engineering techniques would eventually lead to a vaccine. Over 2500 scientists [00:05:30] from all over the world attended the conference in Paris, held under the auspices of the World Health Organisation. An alarming trend reported at the conference was the boom of AIDS virus transmission among drug users shearing infected needles. French health official Jean Baptist Brunette said that three out of four intravenous drug users in Italy were carriers of the AIDS virus. The figure in Spain was one out of every two, he said. The rapid spread of the AIDS virus among needle drug addicts is one of the main events of 1986. Studies prevented during the conference [00:06:00] suggest that the rapid spread of AIDS in Africa may be due to the almost totally heterosexual transmission of the disease there. One study showed that more than 60% of prostitutes in Nairobi were carriers of the AIDS virus. The World Health Organisation says 6% of the total population of Africa has been infected by the AIDS virus. And on a lighter note, a spokesperson for an Auckland University Christian group, Peter Stone, said yesterday that a decision to allow private cubicles with beds to be set up in the Auckland University student Union would [00:06:30] result in orgies on campus. He said It's just totally immoral, the sort of sick thing that brings this country down. President of the Student Association Graham Watson said students voted 9 to 1 in favour of dividing part of the student association building into private cubicles with beds for individuals, couples or groups to use for whatever purpose they desire University Reger Warwick Nicco will be looking into the matter. It sounds like fun. That's ABC News. It's a cold, wet, wintery day in Wellington. So let's stay wrapped up in our cubicles with [00:07:00] Tom Robinson. That's out in the cold with Tom Robinson from the north by North West LP, and it's dedicated to all those parliamentarians who want to leave us out in the cold. You're listening to Gay Morning, New Zealand on Stonewall Day 1986. Let's cross now live to Sydney for Australian [00:07:30] gay radio news. Hi, this is Philip and John, with the Australian Gay Radio Information news service bringing you news items culled from Grin's weekly bulletins broadcast during recent weeks in Australia. Due to the postponement of the final reading of the Homosexual Law Reform bill in New Zealand. Sydney gay people staged a demonstration on May 23 in support of gays across the Tasman outside the New Zealand Tourist Bureau. Gay activists [00:08:00] in New Zealand fear that by postponing the third and final reading, a number of parliamentarians may cave in on the question of age of consent, equality with heterosexuals. It is expected that some members of the New Zealand parliament will attempt to raise the consent age to 19. During the crucial second reading, amendments to increase the age from 16 were defeated. Traditionally, the final reading of the bill is merely a formality. But a postponed reading, activists [00:08:30] say, allows detractors of the bill to concentrate on further unsettling the waivers amongst the parliamentarians. The Sydney demonstration, arranged by Kiwi Connection and the Gay Solidarity Group, aimed at encouraging New Zealanders in Australia to write to their wavering parliamentarians and urge them to stick to their original decision to support an age of consent of 16. Wearing a 10 gallon Stetson and VIP dark glasses, Sydney's [00:09:00] gay gospel Oral Richards entertained at a fundraiser supper on Saturday night, May 23 for victimised lesbian teacher Alison Thorne. Gay Oral rounded off his pungent send up of right wing Christian fundamentalism with a series of his own hot gospel songs. Sydney Supporters of the campaign to reinstate Alison Thorne had gathered to show their solidarity with Thorne while she was on a brief visit to Sydney for a free speech seminar at Macquarie University. [00:09:30] Alison Thorne has been neither charged nor found guilty of any crime Yet in November 1983 the director general of education in Victoria transferred her from classroom teaching at Glenroy Technical School in Melbourne to her original office job. All she did was what any individual in Australia is supposed to have the right to do. She signed a press release expressing a political opinion. The press release was issued by the [00:10:00] Gay Legal Rights Coalition, protesting against charges of conspiracy to corrupt public morals laid against members of the paedophile support group. The court found that there was no case to answer and dismissed the police charges against the arrested members of the discussion group. But the media hounded Thorn for her free speech. Defence of the group and the Education Department followed the media's lead. Thorn has taken her case to the Equal Opportunity Board in Melbourne. She [00:10:30] said she won't forget Aah Richards on her and her Sydney supporters as they joined him with rhythmic hand clapping as he sang Give me that Alison Thorne religion. Give me that socialist feminist religion. It's good enough for me. Melbourne's ST Kilda festival has been proposed for an annual gay Maori grant. Adam Carr, vice president of the Victorian AIDS Council has confirmed that discussions have already been held between VAC and the Victorian Tourist Commission. [00:11:00] Carr said it was inappropriate to talk about the details until the idea had been discussed with ST Kilda Council, the Traders Association of ST Kilda and other gay organisations. Carr pointed out that quite clearly he did not think it should be called a Mardi Gras because he said, the gay Mardi Gras is a uniquely Sydney event. The ST Kilda festival, like Sydney's gay Mardi Gras, is held each February. Bill Whittaker of the Sydney Gay Mardi Gras Committee said that his [00:11:30] committee supported the proposal provided the Melbourne event complemented the Sydney one. He added that he thought it would be great if every capital city could have one. The opening of the 1986 Sydney Film Festival on Friday night, June 6th, was undoubtedly a night to remember. Outside the State Theatre, the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence and some of their supporters staged a counter demonstration to that of the Roman Catholics, the Lebanese Maronites and the Protestant [00:12:00] evangelicals. Over 500 Christian traditionalists carrying lighted candles were demonstrating against the screening of Jean Luc Godard's film Hail Mary. At the festival, the gay male nuns satirised the Christian protesters by chanting The Queen of heaven, don't pump gas and distributed a leaflet on film censorship. The sisters accused the multinational oil companies of instigating the film. The leaflet also [00:12:30] demanded that full control over censorship should be vested in Sister Mary's third secret of Fatima so he could throw large video parties. The sisters considered this demand reasonable because they had no interest whatsoever in public morals. One of the supportive friends of the gay male nuns was veteran gay rights campaigner John Fox. He carried a double sided placard on High, which he twirled at intervals. On one side. It said Nile and Clancy, don't tell me what films [00:13:00] I see and on the reverse, resist clericalism. An ugly situation developed when Christians began hurling their candles at the sisters. One sister was hit on the forehead, and with blood beginning to trickle down his face, the others decided it was time to leave. As friends shielded them, the sisters shed their habits and melted out of the increasingly violent environment, and that's this edition of the overseas service of grins, the Australian gay radio Information [00:13:30] News Service. Cheers. Well, that was Philip and John coming to you Live from Sydney with the Australian Gay Radio Information news service. They'll be back in a month's time. Gay Morning, New Zealand. It's nine minutes to 12. We've got a track now relevant to today. Stonewall Day 1986. It's from the Broadway musical Laca F, and it's sung by the whole Broadway cast, which includes Jean Barry and George Hearn. Yeah, [00:14:00] great stuff. That's We are what we are from La Caja fo Gay Morning, New Zealand. It's time for what's On in Gay Wellington. The big event this weekend just has to be the gay and lesbian disco Cabaret at the Electric Ballroom opposite McDonald's and Victoria Street. Tonight from 10 p. m. There's stunning lighting, live entertainment, great food and good music. It's not to be missed. The cabaret last weekend [00:14:30] was particularly enjoyable. That's the Electric Ballroom's disco cabaret for lesbians and Gays, Tonight at 10 p. m. and the next Lesbian and Gay Dance University will be on Saturday, the fifth of July. That's next weekend, starting at 9:30 p. m. as usual, and the student union that's Saturday, the fifth of July for the next Lesbian and Gay dance at University. There's a gay and lesbian film festival starting in Wellington in a fortnight's time. It's cunningly disguised as the 15th Wellington Film Festival. But don't let that fool you. The gay films include My Beautiful [00:15:00] Laundrette, a comedy about a couple of May lovers who go into the Laundromat business. I've seen it. It's great. There's before Stonewall, a recollection of what it was like to be gay before 1969. And don't forget, today is Stonewall Day. Desert Hearts, a lesbian film described as a wonderful female adventure. It's had excellent reviews. Evening Dress, a French film starring Gerard de Pao as a burglar in love with a married man and many other films with a gay theme. Don't miss the 15th annual Gay and Lesbian Wellington Film Festival [00:15:30] at the Embassy Theatre. You can book at the Regent Regent Centre and pick up brochures around town. There's still a couple of other films with lesbian or gay themes around town. At the moment, there's Colour Purple at the region, less said, the better. There's Kiss of the Spider Woman at the Paramount Go and see William Hurt, pretending to be a gay man. So much for stereotypes. The next Pink Triangle magazine is due out next weekend to look out for it and listen out for details on it on next week's gay BC There'll be a lesbians and Gays in education conference in Wellington from Friday, the 22nd of August to Sunday, [00:16:00] the 24th of August. If you'd like further details, write to lesbians and gays in education. Post Office box 3264 in Wellington that's post office box 3264 In Wellington, the Gay task Force meets on Wednesday nights at 6 p. m. at the Dorian Club rooms. All lesbians and gay men are welcome. Phone The Lambda Centre 720116 for details. The Campaign for Homosexual Equality meets on Monday nights at 6 p. m. in the Lesbian and Gay Rights Resource Centre. The MP S meet at Parliament this Wednesday night [00:16:30] at 7:30 p. m. to discuss our fate. So if you support an age of consent of 54 go along and cheer them on, and if the age of consent doesn't turn out to be 16, there will be a meeting afterwards. Of all those lesbians and gays who will be voting Labour again. That's in the phone box outside the Courtney Place post office. And finally, the Wellington Gay switchboard is open on Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday nights from 7 to 10 p. m. phone. 72869. That's what's on on Gay Wellington, and that's GAC for Stonewall Day, [00:17:00] the 28th of June 1986. So it's goodbye from Peter and Andy. Have a great gay day. We'll go out with the New York City Gay Men's Chorus. Yeah, and the justice for the I.

IRN: 275
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/gay_bc_12_july_1986.html
ATL REF: 
ATL URL: 
TITLE: Gay BC (12 July 1986)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Annette King; George Gair; Ian Kember; John Banks; Jon Lusk; Norman Jones
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; Alison Laurie; Annette King; Aotearoa New Zealand; Brett Sheppard; Copenhagen; Gay BC (Wellington Access Radio); Gay Task Force; George Gair; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Ian Kember; John Banks; Jon Lusk; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Miriam Saphira; Norman Jones; Parliament buildings; Wellington; Wellington Access Radio; Wellington Gay Switchboard; Wellington Gay Task Force; activism; gay; gay liberation movement; homosexual law reform; human rights; media; politics; programme; radio; transcript online
DATE: 12 July 1986
YEAR: 1986
LOCATION: Wellington Access Radio, 1st Floor, 35/37 Ghuznee Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Gay BC (Broadcasting Collective) was a community radio programme that broadcast weekly on Wellington's Access Radio from 1985 to the 1990s. This programme was broadcast a couple of days after the passing of the Homosexual Law Reform Act (9 July 1986). It contains recordings from the third reading debate and final vote in parliament.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: The question is, would honourable members please resume their seats? The question is that the homosexual law reform bill be now read a third time. The eyes are 49. The nose are 44. It will be registered. [00:00:30] That was a recording of the final vote on the third reading of the Gay Law Reform Bill, and yesterday at noon the governor general signed the bill and it passed into law. And this programme of GAC is for all those who fought for law reform in New Zealand. We'll have more highlights from Parliament's historic Wednesday night session soon. But first of all hit our hit our hit our people. [00:01:00] The argument has been going on so long that inevitably parliament now must address the final crunch. The fact that there has been no willingness to compromise is as much on the heads and the responsibility of those who are opposed to the bill as those who are for the bill in its present form, each could have worked with [00:01:30] those in the middle ground to find a compromise which would have produced a change in the law, would have produced reform, but an age a little higher than that proposed in the bill. Now, sir, those like myself, who I believe do represent the middle ground are prevented, are presented with really three options to vote against the bill to abstain or to vote for the bill Unamended. [00:02:00] I cannot vote against it, sir, because this change, a change is long overdue and that I have sought to make clear I considered for some time that perhaps the course was to abstain and I agonised over this point. And I must say that there are some aspects of abstention that are appealing. But in the final analysis, a vote for abstention, I reasoned, [00:02:30] was passing the responsibility over to others and that I'm not prepared to do so. I was presented with what I feel is a difficult choice between two two propositions, neither of which I like, but one of which I like less than the other. So, sir, I will when the vote is taken, vote for the bill. But I grant you with considerable reluctance If the vote tonight is finally [00:03:00] balanced either for or against, it is certain that the arguments will come back again. It will haunt this chamber until New Zealand Society finds a way of living with change. Mr. Speaker, the last plea I make is that however, members may vote tonight, those beyond this chamber and outside will not judge the individual members too harshly. Because even those who oppose [00:03:30] me and oppose my position, I believe, are voting with their conscience. And they are voting for what they believe to be right. Yes, uh, Mr some shallow handbag and weak rhetoric from the member for North [00:04:00] Shore and historical dissertation of negligible substance of negligible substances. The member, halfway through his speech that was a abstain speech until 70% of it was delivered. Said the sponsors of this bill [00:04:30] are asking for too much. And I'll say to the member, as I said to him privately, I'm terribly, terribly disappointed in the member for North Shore. He is a colleague of mine, And, sir, I hope after this is gone, he will continue to be a friend of mine. But I'm [00:05:00] sir, prepared to stand up and be counted and say that if the member for North Shore voted with the rest of his colleagues just one week ago, we would not be debating this bill tonight. This day will be remembered as a sad and sickening day for New Zealand. A sad and sickening day for New Zealand A very black cloud [00:05:30] hangs over this parliament tonight, and those members that wheel themselves through the doors of the eyes lobby voting for legalised sodomy at the age of 16 should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. If Mr Jones, this bill could have been defeated last Wednesday by 46 votes to 44 two Wednesdays previously could [00:06:00] have been divided by four votes tonight. And I know the numbers as well as the member, the member for uh Wellington Settle knows that this bill will will be passed through by 48 votes to 45 and I've done the counting by 48 votes to 45 or 47 votes to 46 just depending on who hasn't made up their mind. There's no compromise on sodomy. It's either right or it's wrong. And it's wrong as hell. And everybody knows that. And as the member for the North Shore, of course, [00:06:30] give the member for North Shore eight alternatives, and he'll look for 1/9 and he'll look for 1/9. It's typical Annette King, the speaker. I move that the question be now, put the question now. Is that the homosexual law reform bill? Be now, read a third time. Those who are of that opinion will say I of the country opinion will say no. The [00:07:00] the I seven division called for Ring the bell. The question is, would honourable members please resume their seats? The question is that the homosexual law reform bill be now read a third time. The eyes are 49. The nose are 44. It will be registered. [00:07:30] The House will not tolerate this interference. I want that panda removed from the gallery. [00:08:00] Any further disturbance from the galleries and I will have them clear. Homosexual Law Reform Bill Third reading. Well, those are a few of the highlights of, um, Wednesday night in Parliament as Fran Wild's gay law reform bill passed its third reading. And, um, I think the speaker was talking about a certain fundamentalist Christian who stood up and foamed at the mouth [00:08:30] in the public gallery just when the law reform bill was passed. Um, John Banks was right. Of course, there is no generic connection at all. Um, for homosexuality, and um, before that we had a song, um from Bronski Beat. That was off the new album called Truth Double Dare and the song was called Hit That Perfect Beat Boy. All right, we've got some news now. This is read by Ian Creation Scientists. The people who believe that the world was made in six [00:09:00] days can now join the newly Reformed Creation Science Association. Renton McLaughlin of the Open Brethren Research Fellowship has formed this new group to recognise the relevance of creation to the Gospel of Jesus Christ as it is spoken into a society that seems to be increasingly humanistic. Humanistic. A conference for lesbian and gays in education is to be held in Wellington in August. The conference has been organised by a group of gay and lesbian students [00:09:30] and teachers. For further information, contact Lesbian and Gays in education. PO. Box 3264 Wellington or Phone Tiggy 05828691 or Andy 04, 848932 Things seem to be looking up for gay nightlife in Wellington and Christchurch in Christchurch Angles nightclub, [00:10:00] which has been closed due to fire damage, was reopened on Queen's birthday weekend to a 350 strong crowd. Meanwhile, in Wellington, Brett Shepherd of the Out empire, who owns Alfie in Auckland, among other gay venues, is planning to open a nightclub in Wellington soon, as yet, they have not found a suitable location as far as we know. Also, the electric ballroom in Victoria Street, opposite McDonald's, [00:10:30] will continue to run discos for lesbians and gay men. The next dance is planned for Saturday, the 26th of July and Saturday, the second of August. The dancers at Victoria University continue to pull large crowds, and last weekend's dance was a colourful and friendly affair. Funds raised from these dances, which are run by the lesbian and gay student group, are being channelled back into lesbian and gay community groups. [00:11:00] The Lesbian and Gay Rights Resource Centre, the Aid Support Network, Gay Community Centre, gay and lesbian switchboards and the Women's Place Bookshop have all benefited from considerable donations as a result of recent dance fundraising. So support your community and have fun while you're about it. Wellington's team for the Gay Games two in San Francisco later this year has decided it will not participate in the games if there is any [00:11:30] participation by gay South African sports people. The decision was prompted by a letter from Hart concerning the plight of a gay and anti apartheid activist, Simon and Cody, currently imprisoned in South Africa. Apparently, gay groups from South Africa have not responded to requests from other international groups. For them to do something about the situation, however, Wilde is all very well to say what you like. If you are not living in South Africa, it is [00:12:00] not clear either what sort of pressure gay political groups are under in South Africa and now some international gay news. New Zealand is not the only country to have recently achieved gay law reform. Belgium has had an age of consent of 16, and a bill repealing the discriminatory age of 18 was passed in the Senate in June. The repeal bill was first introduced by a Socialist MP in June 1983. [00:12:30] A new move towards equality for gay and lesbian couples has been made in Australia. The lobbying group, called the Gay Immigration Task Force, have succeeded in getting the Australian Federal Minister for Immigration to allow non Australian partners of gay Australians permanent residency on the basis of genuine relationships. The minister required that proof in the form of evidence that a couple had lived together for more than four years was required. Temporary resident visas [00:13:00] will be allowed so as to establish the four year period in cases. So far, 40 applications for permanent or temporary residents have been approved. While this is hardly equality with the laws governing heterosexual marriages and immigration, it is a step if you are interested, the group can be contacted at GITFPO. Box 415 NS W-2 Double 01 Australia. [00:13:30] Mhm. Well, that was a never ending, 12 inch version of love to Love your baby, Um, from Bronski Beat before Jimmy Someville left them. It's, um, just about 12 o'clock, and I'll [00:14:00] just give you a few community notices before we go. Um, Pink Triangle has just been published the latest edition, and it features um, as well as international news, which we ripped off for this programme. An interview with Dennis Altman, the Australian gay rights activist and author of AIDS and the New Puritanism, and that book is reviewed, among other things, in Pink Triangle and also a live interview with him. Well, not live but an interview, and there will be a rundown of the gay and lesbian films in the film festival. I went to the first one last [00:14:30] night called My Beautiful Laundrette, and it was excellent. Uh, there's also an interview with a person with AIDS. Um, apart from that Oh yeah, you can get it in your local bookstores. Good bookstores around town. Um, the real raffle is still being run by the Gay task force, and tickets are $2. The first prize is $400 and the raffle closes on July the 30th, and it'll be drawn on the sixth of August. Uh, it's limited to 1500 tickets, and the campaign [00:15:00] may be over, but the task force still has a lot of bills to pay, So this is a fundraising effort that you can contribute to. The next Gay Task Force meeting is on Wednesday, the 24th of July at 6 p. m. at the Dorian and the major point of discussion will be the future function of the gay task force. A victory celebration dance has been tentatively planned for the 23rd of July And that's, um, tentative at the moment a Wednesday night and among the guests will be leading MP S, who supported [00:15:30] the bill. The task force sent a flower to every MP who supported the bill on Thursday. As for Monday, the Gay Task Force Office at the Community Centre will be closed until further notice. We've just heard from our roving reporter, Alison Laurie, that she telephoned the International Gay Association conference in Copenhagen the night the bill was passed and told the news to Miriam Sofia, who was New Zealand's representative at that conference. And she relayed [00:16:00] the news to a reception which was going on at the time. And there was a great deal of celeb celebration and clapping and cheering, followed by a march to the American Embassy in Copenhagen against protesting against the Supreme Court's decision in the US by five votes to four making sodomy unconstitutional. And that includes oral and anal intercourse for gay and straight people. So we don't know what's going to happen in the future for those wondrous United States [00:16:30] leaders. If anybody wants to go to the International Lesbian and Gay Youth Conference being held in Oslo, that's different from the IG. A conference. Uh, the International Conference for Lesbian and Gay Youth is being held in August. Oslo. And if you want to get involved in that or perhaps even go to it, um, you should get in contact with the ABC. Um, collective. That's PO. Box 3264 Wellington Uh, this is KBC radio. You're listening to the gay radio collective. And, um, [00:17:00] if you want to ring for any information, uh, or counselling, you can ring the switchboard on 728, 609. Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday. That's the gay switchboard. 7 to 10 p. m. for information and counselling. Remember, the fight's not over. Um, there's a great deal, of course, for celebration, but we lost part two of the bill. And lesbians and gays in this country still don't have any protection from anti discrimination. So it's no time to sit back on our laurels. It looks like the fundamentalist Christians are planning a new [00:17:30] campaign, so we mustn't, uh, let them get away with what they tried to get away with before we'll see you later.

IRN: 902
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/st_peters_church_service.html
ATL REF: 
ATL URL: 
TITLE: St Peters church service (1967)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Godfrey Wilson
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1960s; Anthony Jennings; Aotearoa New Zealand; Christianity; Godfrey Wilson; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); New Testament; Radio New Zealand National; St Peter's church; St. Paul; Wellington; a born bachelor; acceptance; accomodation; archives; blackmail; choice; church; compassion; crime; criminalisation; discrimination; faith; family; gay; history; homosexual; law; love; marriage; molestation; outsider; pansy; persecution; prejudice; prison; prisoners; promiscuity; queer; radio; relationships; religion; sexual abuse; sexuality; sin; societal attitudes; spirituality; suicide; theatre; victim
DATE: 26 June 1967
YEAR: 1967
LOCATION: St Peter's church, cnr Willis and Ghuznee Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: The Reverend Godfrey Wilson introduces a service reflecting on homosexuality. It was held at St Peter's church in Wellington on 26 June 1967, and broadcast live on National radio. In June 2017 a special 50th anniversary church service was held to mark this landmark sermon. A detailed log of this recording (cassette 0208-A) is available on the LAGANZ website.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: The service is conducted by the Reverend Godfrey Wilson, and the organist choir master is Anthony Jennings. ST Peter's. Tonight, people from all over the city are gathered to worship God in a service which is built around a particular theme. Our concern is with the homosexuals in our society, and we try to present a Christian approach to their problems. After the opening act of worship and Thanksgiving, you'll hear several readings from the New Testament, followed by a short story and a dialogue. Then, [00:00:30] when we've got our imaginations and our minds to bear on the problem in these ways, we shall end on our knees in intercession. The service begins now with the hymn Come Our Holy Spirit, Come number 156 and Hymns Ancient and Modern. Revised in it, we call on the Holy Spirit to guide us to open our hearts to love and our minds to truth. [00:01:00] 12 for the Romans, from chapters one and 14. They exchange the truth about God for a lie and worships and serves the creature rather than the creator who is there forever. For this reason, God gave them up to this honourable passion. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural. And the men [00:01:30] likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another. Men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own person the due penalty for their error. Why have you passed judgement on your brother? Are you? Why do you despise your brother? But we shall all stand before the judgement seat of God. [00:02:00] Matthew's gospel from chapter 25. When the son of man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Then the king will say to those of his right hand Come Oh, blessed of my father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. And he would say to those of his left hand [00:02:30] depart from me. You cut it into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. But I was hungry and you gave me no food. I was thirsty and you gave me no drink. I was a stranger and you did not welcome me naked. And you did not clothe me sick and in prison. And you did not visit me. Then they also will answer. [00:03:00] When did we see the hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to them? Then he will answer them truly. I say to you as you did it, not to one of the least of these. You did it. Not to me. The first of Saint John from Chapter three and four little Children [00:03:30] let us love not in word or in speech, but indeed. And in truth, if anyone says I love God and hates his brother, he is a liar for he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, you cannot love God whom he has not been. And this commandment we have from him that he who loves God should love his brother himself, [00:04:00] love times without number. He pondered the use and abuse of that familiar and ambiguous word, and now the prison chaplain had used it, sitting there in his office, listening to John's story. John had been three weeks in prison, perhaps the three blackest weeks of a life already overburdened [00:04:30] with shadow put him in a group of other young men of 30 you'd see nothing to mark him as different. He's able, intelligent, well thought of in the bank where he worked, that he is different. John is a homosexual. It's his own sex that he's attracted to. And it's with men that he seeks to make those loving relationships on which any full life [00:05:00] as a person depends. I don't know. When John first realised he was different, his mother, to whom he was very close, had sometimes commented on his lack of interest in girls. But that was earlier. He was a born bachelor, he said, not wanting to hurt, and in time she recognised and [00:05:30] accept. When he left home to work in Wellington, he was trying very hard to come to terms with his conditions. He led quite a full social life and made friends, particularly in the amateur drama group, which he joined. But he kept telling himself, This is as far as it can go. Just he knew only too well what society thinks of homosexuals. [00:06:00] After all, didn't he read the newspapers and hadn't he overheard his land lady telling her friends with some disgust that she thought she had a clear among her bodies. It was like background, radiation, the attitudes, the things you read and heard John Clyde that he only seemed to become more and more more aware of something vital lacking of a growing emptiness [00:06:30] at the centre of his life. He wanted the warmth and tenderness of marriage. Really, he wanted to give himself to love and to be loved. But how could he? The way he was? Well, John did fall in love with a young man. He met one night in a coffee bar and got talking to Colin. His name was They clicked, [00:07:00] as we say, of men and women who fall in love, and after some months of torture, they moved into a flat together. John took the step in fear and trembling. It wasn't altogether satisfactory. There were tensions, quarrels, sometimes jealousy over friends, as in other human relationships. But there was also love, genuine care for each other [00:07:30] and the fulfilling experience of facing life in partnership. John couldn't imagine a return to his solitary. They'd been together for nearly a year when the landlord gave them notice. Apparently another tenant had complained to him about having queers for neighbours and about the pack of pansies who came around visiting. He was sorry, but he didn't want his tenant upset [00:08:00] If the N is making a fuss after all, as far as they were concerned, he had the whip hand. John and Colin foil over this upheaval, and the relationship ended on a sour note. To cut a long story short, John went back to his solitary boarding house existence, but now he was getting bitter. He felt much more deprived and [00:08:30] frustrated than before, and it was if coupled with the desperate desire to regain something of what he'd lost that drove him from one casual relationship to another and finally into the arms of the lock. He got probation for the first offence, but the second time it was 12 months imprisonment. What's the use? [00:09:00] Hey, John, to the prison chain, I've tried to fit in to live my life and find happiness. Like everyone else, I didn't ask to be a homosexual. I didn't choose to be different. And yet you've made me an outsider, a criminal, a greater threat to society, apparently, than the adulterer who breaks up a home or the man who gets a girl pregnant and leaves her holding the baby and Dr [00:09:30] If you fall in love and marry, that's fine. But if I fall in love and want to show it, that's perversion and must be persecuted and punished. Do you wonder that I thought of suicide? What is that for me? Who cares about me? Yeah, who can? [00:10:00] We shall think about this for a moment while the choir sings an anthem based on a passage in the 14th chapter of ST John's Gospel, which speaks of God's gift to the spirit of truth. If you love me, keep my commandments, said Thomas. Tell us, [00:10:30] I'm glad I'm not that chaplain. I wouldn't know what to say to someone in John's position. I mean, hearing about John, I suddenly realised how easy it is to take for granted the love and affection, the care and friendship I enjoy. [00:11:00] I was just trying to imagine how I would feel if people had whispered behind my back every time I took a girlfriend home, or even worse, if I'd been evicted because of what other tenants said when I tried to settle down with my wife. All the more reason then, for helping men like John to see what they lack to see that God intended human nature to find fulfilment in marriage and the rising of a family. But not everyone gets married, and even those who do aren't always fortunate enough to have Children. True, but some choose not to, for various good reasons and sheer force of circumstances prevents [00:11:30] others. And wasn't it force of circumstances that prevented John getting married? He simply wasn't born that way. A born bachelor? Is that what you mean? That's what he told his mother, you remember. But they both knew it wasn't true, even if that's what they would have liked to think. All the same, it wasn't exactly his fault. You know as well as I do that our sexual tendencies become fairly set at a stage. Some are too young to have much influence on what happens. John could no more have prevented his sexual outlook than you could yours, however much richer, [00:12:00] objectively speaking, yours might be. So you do agree that that it's better not to be a homosexual, of course, but you're missing the point. You're still assuming that John had some choice about his sexual outlook when in fact he didn't. But surely he must have had some say on the matter. Well, you ask yourself, Did you choose your sexual outlook? Did you? Well, you put it like that. I suppose I didn't. No more did. John. No. A person can't help being born left handed or with a black, brown, yellow or white skin. [00:12:30] Nor can he help it if he grows up with a different kind of sexual personality. It's not a sin to be left handed or to have a different coloured skin. So why should homosexuality be a sin? I must admit, I've never thought of it quite like that before. I suppose what you mean is that it's not sinful to feel affection for one's own sex. Everyone does that up to a point. I suppose it's the sexual behaviour which results from letting these impulses run away with you. That's the really simple thing. Exactly. Isn't the case of heterosexual [00:13:00] It's those who abuse the gift of sexuality? Who sin? Yes, I see that clearly enough. And don't you see also why John found himself growing bitter. He started off by accepting himself for what he was knowing the limitations. But that wasn't enough. The one time he achieved happiness within these limitations. It went wrong because other people fought the worst of them and wouldn't leave them alone. But there is another side to the picture. Surely the rest of the community has the right to ensure that this sort of behaviour doesn't get out of hand. Isn't [00:13:30] it just as much for their own good that some restraints put on them? But can the community restrain them? Well, there's the law, and if you break that, you must expect to be put in prison. What good is John's prison sentence going to do? As far as I can see, it will only make him more better and even more of an outsider. It's common knowledge that prison is the last place to put a man like him. He will inevitably mix with the hard core the homosexual world, and either give up or hope for else become hopelessly em and cynical. He'll come out of prison branded as an outsider, [00:14:00] and this will probably force him to adopt a way of life he'd never have done before going into prison. And so, by condemning him, the community hasn't solved this problem. It's made it worse. In the end, the community's worst fears will be confirmed that this will be taken as conclusive proof that prison is the only place for it. And that's all very well that people aren't sent to prison just because they're homosexual. They're punished for committing a crime. I'd rather say it's yet another excuse for ignoring the problem. How do you mean? Just as John said, it's a strange law [00:14:30] that allows sexual freedom to the adult Delta and the fornicator and the female homosexual that withholds that freedom from the male homosexual. Don't you think that we've got to keep coming back to the same fundamental problem the homosexual? Whatever the sex is a sinner? ST. Paul, as you heard in that first reading tonight, vehemently denounces homosexual sins. But haven't we learned a great deal about sex since those days? Paul and the Old Testament writer had the mistaken idea, which we've already been to, that the homosexual chose to be what he is. Look, I've already accepted [00:15:00] that he can't help what he is, but he can help what he does. That's what makes him a sinner, not what he is, but what he does. I wouldn't want to deny that. And yet it doesn't help me to see what John's sin is now. You're making unnecessary difficulties. I thought we'd already agreed that his sin was his abuse of God's gift and sexuality. Not at all. I agree that sexual sin is the abuse of his gift. I agree that Saint Paul was right in denouncing homosexual sin. Now John is a homosexual, but take his relationship with Colin [00:15:30] whilst he abusing his gift of sexuality and therefore sinning. I'm sorry I don't quite follow you. Well, isn't it like this? Christianity condemns homosexuality, but it represents a denial of what is good in life. For instance, talks about deeds prompted by love and without it's an old fashioned word. It does at least tell us what he thought. Sexual sin is. It's a lack of respect for yourself or for other people and sexual relations. It's a sort of disrespect or abuse that leads to deliberately establishing a sexual [00:16:00] relationship that people watch it and get out of it. You know what? As I do that if you have that sort of attitude to sex, then it's not long before the whole meaning gets destroyed. But surely the really basic purpose of sex is procreation. Having Children, and surely this can only rightly be undertaken when two people are totally committed to one another in marriage there. It's part of a creative relationship in which two people exchange love and affection in which they share a common life and common interests and responsibilities. Outside [00:16:30] of this commitment, sex becomes a destructive force. You get tension and jealousy, instability and decay. Yes, but isn't this a different situation with the normal kind of marriage and having Children even the possibilities? Simply because the a couple are homosexual and yet their love is genuine. They're committed to each other and want to make a life together. Is it necessarily sinful for sex to come into this? Well, if you put it that way, I'm not so sure. But go on. I feel John has been made a victim of his sexuality. [00:17:00] He's aware of his outlook, but he's told that it's not a gift but a curse. He's aware of its potentialities for good and for bad, perhaps more aware in a way than we who take our sexual gifts for granted. But he's told that however he expresses them, he's sinning. He wants to use his gifts in a creative way, but he's warned that he must inevitably destroy. He wants to have a share on the ordinary give and take of love and affection. He wants to have this sort of relationship with another person, without which all but the exceptional few fight [00:17:30] lights down and empty. But he's told to repress his evil urges just like you and me. He He finds it perfectly natural to want to fulfil the physical side of his nature, not for what he can get out of it, but what he can put into it. But he's told that this is condemned now. I don't find any destructive force at work. In his particular case, I see no exploitation, no denial of personal work, only the needs and limitations of a human being trying to find fulfilment in ways that will be [00:18:00] rewarding and enriching. But if you believe this, then it's impossible for us to say whether John is sinning or not. You'd need to know so many things about his his personal, his inner life to be at all certain I know, but why should we want to decide that question. ST. Paul's lurid condemnation of homosexual sin is followed up, and as Christians we often forget this by an extremely for reminder that only God sees the heart and is in a position to we up an ends with. I think I'm beginning to see what you mean. You [00:18:30] mean we've all sinned in some way or another, haven't we? And if we don't constantly remind ourselves of this basic fact about human nature, we're in grave danger of, well, almost putting ourselves in God's place. I suppose what it amounts to is this, but it's not our place to judge and to condemn, yes, but I need something so much more positive than that. For me, the the whole meaning of Christianity boils down to God's concern for all men, no matter who they are or what they've done. He accepts us all, [00:19:00] not just in word and speeches or reading, but in but in deed and truth. He got so deeply involved with us that he even became one of us and died for us and all this so that we could really stop merely existing and begin living life to the full acceptance seems to be the key word. And, of course, you can't accept unless you love, love, Christian love the sort of love God has for us. An offer to us isn't a transient feeling. We enjoy what it lasts. It's a demand. [00:19:30] It's a demand to accept all men, as God accepts them with no reservation. Yes, I agree with you. But wouldn't you also want to make it plain that the Christians acceptance of all men must be a critical acceptance? It's no part of Christian teaching to say that we should live as though sin didn't exist. And there can be little doubt that a great deal of homosexual activity is sinful. Don't forget, young boys are molested. Public decencies affronted Young men and women are subjected to mental and emotional pressures just when they're least able [00:20:00] to cope with them. The colour of promiscuity of some homosexual circles isn't a myth, you know, any more than the scourge of blackmail is. All these things must be recognised for what they are, since it was no concern of mine to suggest anything else. It's the idea that homosexual activity is sinful simply and solely because it's homosexual. The idea that rigid black and white distinctions are possible here that I want to reject. Isn't this the lesson we learned from John's story? [00:20:30] Let us pray, Lord, there are so many sides to this. We hardly know where to begin, but there are some things we can see clearly. Lord, hear us when we pray for all who are involved in sexual sins, [00:21:00] who degrade your gift and corrupt others who are ruled by left and use others for their own satisfaction. For all who are weak willed and take the easy way. We pray, especially for homosexuals, for a deeper understanding of their problems [00:21:30] and an awareness of the burden of being different for all who have closed minds on this matter. For all who project their own hidden guilt and fear in harsh condemnation for tongues that wag and woo and words that wound. For those who can find no one to turn to [00:22:00] who are driven to bitterness and despair to contemplate suicide because of what people think or say and we pray Lord, those who are studying homosexuality for new knowledge, new ways of helping for doctors and psychiatrists, clergy and counsellors and all whose help is asked by those [00:22:30] who suffer in this way for just laws concerning our sexual behaviour for those who make laws and those who administer them. But above all, Lord, we pray that your spirit may move in our hearts and minds bringing us gifts of understanding and sympathy Restraining [00:23:00] harsh judgement, teaching us to love our fellow men and women with a love like yours reminding us that we are all sinners in need of your mercy and forgiveness And the may we never hear you say depart from me because we failed to recognise you in our neighbour.

IRN: 956
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/bruce_burnett_february_1985.html
ATL REF: 
ATL URL: 
TITLE: Bruce Burnett (February 1985)
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VOICES: Bruce Burnett
INTERVIEWER: Phil Parkinson
TAGS: 1980s; AIDS Support Network; AIDS Support Network Trust; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland Hospital; Bruce Burnett; Bruce Burnett Clinic (Auckland); Christchurch; Gay BC (Wellington Access Radio); HIV / AIDS; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Phil Parkinson; QE2 (ocean liner); STI; United States of America; Wellington; Wellington Access Radio; counselling; gay; health; health care; health education; kaposi's sarcoma; media; peer support; prevention; safe sex; ships; training; volunteer
DATE: 17 February 1985
YEAR: 1985
LOCATION: Wellington Access Radio, 1st Floor, 35/37 Ghuznee Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Bruce Burnett, an early AIDS educator and activist, talks to Phil Parkinson about an upcoming AIDS counselling workshop and the current situation in New Zealand. The previous week two people had been hospitalised in Auckland (one of them being a passenger on the QE2 ocean liner).
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Bruce, can you tell us about the councillor training workshop you're running this weekend? Yes. We're trying to train volunteer counsellors to do the really quite massive job of supporting people, uh, who are afraid of AIDS, who have mild forms of the disease or, in fact, have AIDS. There's a lot of concern, a lot of worry in the community that needs to be addressed. And people with AIDS do need an awful lot of support in various ways, from financial to physical work to housekeeping and obviously, [00:00:30] um, emotional and, um, counselling sort of support. And that's the sort of training we'll be concentrating on this weekend. The Auckland Hospital in the last week has had to deal with two rather unexpected cases of AIDS. There's been a lot of conflicting information about these cases in the media. How well did the Auckland situation develop? How well did Auckland Hospital cope? Uh, very well. I think we have a really good relationship with most of the medical personnel [00:01:00] in Auckland Hospital. They offered our services to the people concerned, and those people chose to get us involved. We I don't want to say too much about this particular first case because we do want to guard their confidentiality. But, um, I think we were of of help to them, and the hospital coped pretty well. There wasn't too much hysteria. Um, where there were concerns and worries that was addressed in a fairly rational manner. The [00:01:30] guy off the QE two, we've been involved with him and giving him lots of support, and he's really been grateful. Um, obviously being so far away from home, Uh, it's not a very good situation for him, and and he's really appreciated us being able to come and visit him and give him support and also to be able to keep the media away. The media has been very interested in, uh, trying to get a story or interview with him, and he really just wishes to be left alone and just to quietly slip out of the country and go home. [00:02:00] There has been in relation to the later case a lot of concern expressed by, um, the liner and the police about dangers to public health. Was there any basis to those fears at all? None whatsoever. Uh, the guy in question was diagnosed quite some time ago. in the states with the disease. He has a disseminated form of the, uh, which doesn't respond to treatment. He was basically taking a a final cruise. Uh, it was unfortunate that he had [00:02:30] some problems that needed hospitalisation. Uh, when the ship was in New Zealand, Otherwise he would have probably completed the cruise without any problems. He, in fact, actually had tests before he left the states that that proved beyond doubt that he is not infectious it any longer. Uh, people in the later stage of AIDS, uh, typically are not infectious, uh, in any way. And he's a very responsible individual. Um, you know, I shouldn't have to say this, but I will say it quite categorically that he has not exposed anyone [00:03:00] through any sort of sexual or other contact. Um, and I've been concerned that there's been all this story about and worry about this particular sort of individual when we should really be much more concerned about people in the community who at the moment probably are contagious, probably don't know they're infected. Uh, these are the sort of people that we do need to worry about, not the people, not the confirmed cases, not the people who we know we have contact with and who we are monitoring and we know [00:03:30] are being responsible overseas. The pattern seems to be that once cases of AIDS appear, they double about every six months. There are just over 8000 cases we understand in the US over 100 in Britain and nearly 50 in Australia. When would we expect to see the first cases here? I think we'll see some cases within the next few months in New Zealand. We definitely have the virus here That was proven by the antibody tests done in Auckland. Uh, some of those people, um, do have [00:04:00] mild forms of AIDS, and we have other people who are being monitored at this stage. And obviously, you know, one of the important things about the network is to protect people's confidentiality and their identity. But it also is important for us to let people know that this is a serious problem and that it is happening in New Zealand. And I think I don't I'm not causing anybody's confidentiality to be compromised by saying that I think we will have cases very different in the next few months. [00:04:30] recent reports from Australia Bruce have indicated that the form of the virus there is rather more virulent than has been seen in other places. Australia seems to be a likely point from which the infection might enter New Zealand. Uh, the costs of the treatment have been estimated in America at US $70,000 which would be about 100 and 55,000. New Zealand. Is there any [00:05:00] real comparison between the costs of treatment in America, where they have a very different health system and the costs of treatment which we would expect for patients in New Zealand? Probably not, um as the American system is much more expensive. But in New Zealand we are still going to get the situation where AIDS sufferers are going to require a lot of very intensive care situation. That sort of medical attention, which which well, it may not be all that much more expensive [00:05:30] in New Zealand and some other services is gonna tie up a lot of very necessary hospital facilities for long periods of time and in fact may force um, hospital boards and people to invest in in more intensive care situations which are very expensive. Um, some hospital boards have said, well, we would just cope, and it would just the in service existing hospital system would cope, but I think they're being a little short sighted. Um, if we suddenly had 10 cases of AIDS in New Zealand or requiring two or three months, uh, long [00:06:00] intensive care, nursing and management. Um, I think, you know, that would basically take all the existing intensive care, uh, nursing facilities in New Zealand out of out of use for other things. And that's not feasible. Really. So money spent on prevention is a good investment. If it avoids cases. Oh, definitely. I mean, it's it's really hard in some ways to try and look at this, uh, human tragedy in economic terms, but unfortunately to in a situation where [00:06:30] the health budget is is being trimmed and pruned, uh, this we have to actually make a case that a preventative campaign and funding for a preventive campaign now will save money. And, you know, we've had estimates that, you know, if we prevent 10 cases of AIDS, we could save a million dollars, and I don't think that is un an unreasonable estimate. How much money. Then does the aid support network, uh, feel it needs for the work in the current or next year within the next year? We It's really [00:07:00] unsure. Um, we're looking at somewhere somewhere between $6500 I would say in the next year, just on publicity. Media publications, printing costs, training volunteers. Um, that's the sort of budget that we have to realistically look at and operating, uh, special SDD clinics. That's another point that we're negotiating at this stage with the Health Department and the hospital boards. Because SD DS are a service [00:07:30] that fit between the two, and each is reluctant to put too much more money into it. And, um, that has explained the neglect of SDD services for the last few years. Basically, everyone else has seen it as somebody else's responsibility, and, uh, hopefully AIDS will force people to, um, make sure that the services are being done by someone and being funded directly by someone. And we're trying to get that improved, too, Um SDD clinics, just in case people [00:08:00] don't realise our VD clinics, it's STD, a sexually transmitted disease. It's the new jargon for VD clinics. There's already a, um, a special SDD clinic run by the gay community in Christchurch and one is about to be set up in Wellington. You were trying to set one up in Auckland a little while ago, but we're running into opposition from some quarters. How's work in that field going now? It's progressing slowly, but I think within a month we will see something open in in Auckland and it will be something official and [00:08:30] directly funded in many ways by the Health Department and Hospital Board. And that will give us a much firmer basis than the sort of, uh, temporary measures that have been set up in Wellington and Christchurch. And we're hoping Auckland will act as the model for the rest of the country and we will see that similar things more, more official, uh, alternative run clinics in these centres and perhaps in other centres. The majority of the work will still have to be done by volunteers from the Aid Support Network and perhaps from some of the gay groups. [00:09:00] Uh, we want to make these places friendly, welcoming places where there's time spent giving people information about how to prevent, uh, sexually transmitted diseases. At the moment, the DD clinics are so overworked, all they can do is brush people through, give them some pills and send them out again with very little information of how to avoid catching what they've just been treated for. Bruce Burnett, Thank you very much.

IRN: 2091
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/launch_of_the_rainbow_crossing_in_wellington.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004546
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089840
TITLE: Launch of the Rainbow Crossing in Wellington
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Grant Robertson; Justin Lester; Tabby Besley; Tony Nightingale
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Brian Dawson; Carmen Rupe; Chris Calvi-Freeman; Chrissy Witoko; Cuba Street; Evergreen Coffee House; Fleur Fitzsimons; Frank Kitts; Grant Robertson; InsideOUT Kōaro; Jill Day; Justin Lester; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Michael Fowler; Rainbow Crossing (Wellington); Tabby Besley; Tony Blunt; Tony Nightingale; Wellington City Council; asexual; bisexual; diversity; homosexual; lesbian; safe space; safer communities; toasted sandwich; transgender
DATE: 10 October 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Rainbow Crossing (Wellington), cnr Dixon and Cuba Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Welcome to the launch of Wellington's Rainbow Crossing. Now, First things first today was as Carmen Rope's birthday. She would have been 82 today. Now, just a couple of things about Carmen. Uh, I wanna mark her and the wonderful life she led. She was well ahead of her time. She campaigned for things like decriminalisation of prostitution, abortion [00:00:30] and homosexuality. She opened the International Coffee House. She set Wellington's entertainment alive. She campaigned with the best campaign slogan I've ever heard Get in Behind and I. I loved her famous quote, she said of her competitors of Sir Francis. She said, Well, I'm more attractive than him. I'm more charming than Michael Fowler, and I'd certainly beat Tony Blunt in a fight [00:01:00] and given she was 100 and 30 KG Maori and from I don't doubt her, but thank you for all everything you did for Wellington, and in part, that's why we're here today. I also want to thank a couple more people. Grant Robertson that now Grant that's got a beaming smile today because he's happy to be here for the Aberg Crossing launch, but also because he's found a $5 billion surplus and and business [00:01:30] confidence is booming, Uh, to the City Council. So all the staff worked so hard putting all of this together. You know who you are at Urban Design Team. Thank you for your support And congratulations on a job well done to all the all the counsellors for all your support getting this project under way. Thank you. And I want to say to the rainbow community, Look, this is us standing in support of you. This is a show of our solidarity. This is the type of city we want to be [00:02:00] in. We want to express these values in a tangible way. We know that we need to work with you to make Wellington safe, to have safe spaces. And we want our entire city to be safe. Thank you. I'm not even sure if this microphone is working. II. I just wanted to say really quickly on behalf. Um, if I can speak briefly on behalf of Wellington's rainbow community to say a huge thank [00:02:30] you to the Wellington City Council and Justin Lester, we've got a big range of the councillors here. Deputy Mayor Jill Day. Brian Dawson, Fleur Fitzsimmons. Uh, Chris Kelby Freeman Wellington City Council genuinely backs and supports our community. So can we have a big round of applause in the chair for the Wellington City Council? Oh, and from my perspective, I. I love seeing this here because for me, Cuba Street in this precinct is a big part of what makes Wellington Wellington a place [00:03:00] where we do genuinely welcome everybody. We don't judge. We embrace diversity. It's not about tolerance, it's not about acceptance. It's about embracing. Diversity is giving us strength. And that's what I see in Wellington ISS every day. I didn't know Lupe, but I did know somebody I want to mention today. And that's Chrissie. We, um when I first came to Wellington, um, I did go to the Evergreen Coffee Lounge only for toasted sandwiches, and Chrissy [00:03:30] was there, and she represented the spirit that Carmen had brought forward and others who have carried that on. I want to acknowledge Scottie and Mel and people who still make this part of Wellington really important, our diversity. So to me, this is a great day. I hope when people come here and they walk across this crossing, they think about what a great city Wellington is what a brilliant place we are. There's always more to do in the agenda for equal rights and equity for our communities. But this is a sign that Wellington values all of [00:04:00] us. No, I understand. How are you? First of all, just happy birthday to time. And I just want to acknowledge all of those that have come before us to make something like today possible. That's amazing. And we can't underestimate the struggles that our ancestors have been through. Um, and even people still alive today, Um, for [00:04:30] us to be able to celebrate something like this in Wellington, I think this is an incredible, uh, start of some really awesome work for Wellington to become a safe place for Rainbow Communities. And I think, um, something like the rainbow crossing. While it might seem small for new people coming to Wellington for international visitors, um, for young people growing up in the city, I think, um, this really big, bright rainbow crossing on Cuba Street will make a difference. I do wanna say that I think it's the start. It's the beginning. And I think there are so many more, um, awesome [00:05:00] ideas, and I also just want to let people know because not everyone may be aware that the City Council, um, they also consulted with Rainbow community groups. They did an amazing job of bringing um, groups from across the community together for a with their urban design team to say It's not just about this crossing, what else do you want it loud and clear that we want a physical space, a community centre we want to bring. We wanna break back times where, um, where Carmen um and her friends [00:05:30] had that cafe and those kind of things. A space that we can meet that isn't just, um filled around alcohol. So I also just want to acknowledge, um, all the hard work of the organisations that are currently they're doing such a hard job to, um create safe services and spaces for, um, young people and older people and all sorts of people in Wellington. Um because without them, um, something like this would not mean anything. It's really, um those services and support organisations that support people to be here and to walk on the crossing. So I just want to shout [00:06:00] out to all of those and to Wellington City Council and to Wellington for coming out and making this, um, such an incredible celebration and occasion. And let's let's keep going. Um, next on the agenda, I think, is like gender neutral bathroom rollouts across the city. So I'm 29 Rainbow Wellington. We've now got multiple generations of people who have a rainbow [00:06:30] identity out there. What I really like about this it's a tangible symptom. It's a tangible symbol of that council commitment to the rainbow community. I'm a little worried by the look right on one side. I'm a little bit more pleased by the look left on this side. But I'll tell you what. I adore the multi colours that go from one side to the other and the recognition of the lesbian, gay, bisexual, [00:07:00] transsexual, intersex, asexuals, pansexual and anybody else who's not quite straight in the middle of our city. And that is great. Oh, yes. Cool. Uh, we're now officially, uh, going to, uh, cut the river. And could I ask everyone just to move away from the crossing? So we're gonna do from either side from that side and from this side, and we'll meet [00:07:30] in the middle. I tell you, the one.

IRN: 1269
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/launch_of_the_wellington_pride_festival_2019.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004552
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089846
TITLE: Launch of the Wellington Pride Festival 2019
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Bella Simpson; Des Smith; Drew Hadwen; Greig Wilson; Jesse Porter; John Jolliff; Justin Lester; Kevin Haunui; Steven Sue; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland Pride festival (2019); Bella Simpson; Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Act 2021; Bisexual flag; Boulcott Street; Des Smith; Devotion parade; Drew Hadwen; Gender Minorities Aotearoa (GMA); Greig Wilson; ILGA World; ILGA World Conference (2019); InsideOUT Kōaro; Intersex flag; Jan Logie; Jesse Porter; John Jolliff; Justin Lester; Kevin Haunui; Lesbian flag; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF); Orchestra Wellington; Out Wellington Inc.; Out in the Park (Wellington); Out in the Square (Wellington); Outerspaces (Wellington); Pansexual flag; Phillip Cottrell; Pride Parade (Wellington); Pride parade; Pride precinct; Pussy Riot; Rainbow Crossing (Wellington); Rainbow Wellington; Rainbow flag; Royal New Zealand Ballet; South Africa; Steven Sue; Stonewall (film, 2015); Stonewall riots (1969); Stuff; Thailand; The Glamaphones; Thistle Hall; Topp Twins; Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); Transgender flag; Tīwhanawhana; Wellington; Wellington Pride; Wellington Pride Festival (2019); accessibility; civil unions; community; diversity; fishing; flags; garden tour; gardening; history; hīkoi; police; pride; queer theatre; quiz; safe space; safety; theatre; trans; transgender; transition; travel; walk tour; youth; youth ball
DATE: 10 March 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Thistle Hall, First floor, 293 Cuba Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the launch of the Wellington Pride Festival, held at Thistle Hall on 8 March 2019.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So I'm one of the co directors of the Wellington Pride Festival. This year. Myself and Paula, along with a few supporters, have been pulling us all together. Um, we're pretty excited. We're about to launch. We've got a bunch of people from community sponsors, Um, other volunteers, the people organising in the event. Some of the venues coming to join us tonight. And the mayor will cut a big ribbon and, um yeah, and then the festival will be underway So all those sleepless nights will suddenly [00:00:30] seem so worth it. Pretty excited. Now, Now I've had a sneak look through the programme and there are so many events. Yeah, we counted up 100 and 28 things you could be doing over the next 17 days after the launch will be down to 100 and 27. We're super excited. The first event in the festival this year is a youth only event organised by inside out. It's a quiz night. They've, um, called it Who wants to be a gay zillionaire, which is fabulous. Who doesn't want to be a gay zillionaire, right? Yeah. So So So why is [00:01:00] it important to to have youth events in these pride festivals. I think that it's super important to have youth events throughout the year, but particularly to celebrate our rainbow youth, our LGBT QI a plus youth throughout pride and to make them a priority. Or there's going to be the youth ball towards the end of the festival, along with the other events. It's just gosh, why, I guess I have to personalise it for me. When I was growing up where there [00:01:30] was no visibility, there was no one like me. There was no support and for these guys, they've got a whole lot of the same issues and then a whole lot of issues we didn't have, um, the world's a changed place, but that they can come together and have youth only spaces, that they're welcome in other spaces. The they're important, you know, that horrible cliche, but it's for real. They are our future. And what are some of the other events that are that are coming up on the programme? Um, we're [00:02:00] pretty lucky that we shifted the dates to coincide with the World Conference this year because that's meant we also coincide with the Fringe Festival. So we've been able to to to our GB a A plus who have got shows in the fringe. So we've got a really awesome theatre line up better, you know, bigger than we could have expected. We're also it's pretty neat that a number of other events have done their very best to be youth friendly and, if not in a completely accessible venue, [00:02:30] have one where accessibility can be organised prior so that people can, you know, go to as many events as possible. Obviously the 16th super looking forward to the pride for the youth and young at heart. Looking out the window today, I don't think we'll be having our youth picnic tomorrow. But we haven't called that yet. We're waiting till after the six o'clock news Check the weather report properly. Um, there has just been so much fantastic support from the city organisations Community staff are on board doing some features. [00:03:00] The Met Service website are going to be doing some ads for us and just Yeah, it's all really positive and supportive. I think one of my highlights is gonna be, uh, an event that was in the old devotion festival and it's going to be on the last. It's pretty much the last event of this year's festival on Sunday, the 24th for Garden tours out at Des and John's definitely worth checking out. They are just always fab, and apparently I'm baking for that because they're fundraising for [00:03:30] a gender. Minorities with it. There's yeah, out in the park. Of course, everything that goes with that really looking forward to that, too. Um, just the diversity. You know, there's there's a little bit of something for everyone. We've got a fishing outing, you know you can if you've never been fishing before, or you're a seasoned Fisher and you just want to go fish with some other queers. We've got that in there. This time around. There's tonnes of history running through it. Of course, the Pride NZ Walk Tours, um, one on each of the three weekends to Papa have jumped on board. They're doing two behind the [00:04:00] scenes tours, one at Cable Street and one up at the Tory Street facility. They're also doing a Pride 101 panel through Friends of Te Papa, so that's pretty exciting stuff, too. So how far in advance? Um, do pride festivals? How how far in advance are they planned? We started, um, talking about it when at Wellington had their a GM in April May last year. And then the committee started to meet once a month. We put, um, [00:04:30] expressions of interest up on the website, possibly not with enough lead in time, but we're a bit short on team members, and there's nobody really managing the website. But just through our networks and talking, this has probably been coming together for about six months. The actual what's going to be in the festival and scheduling it all fair to say the majority of it came in in the last six weeks, Um, but it's been really exciting to to be able to fit in as many different events for, you know, different parts of our community and for everybody, [00:05:00] really to celebrate what's the most stressful part? Wow, The most stressful part. I don't know. I think things may seem a little stressy because you do a lot of late nights and you know, we're all working day jobs as well. So not getting a lot of sleep may make it feel a lot of stressful. It is something akin to hurting cats. It really is, um, but I don't tend to get too stressed about it. Just, uh, wanting everything to kind of line up, I suppose, making sure, Yeah, working [00:05:30] as hard as we could to make sure there weren't too many events that were clashing with one another that might be of interest to similar audiences. But no, not stressy. It's just fun. And it's exciting to be able to volunteer and do something like this. That means our community can be out and proud and all over the dam city for a couple of weeks. One of the really exciting things for me is to walk down Courtney Place or walk around the waterfront and see all these rainbow flags, go out to the airport and see a huge rainbow flag on the front of the airport. I mean, what kind [00:06:00] of feeling do you get from seeing all that kind of stuff in town? I think it's the biggest pride visibility that Wellington's ever seen. Even back when we did devotion, there wasn't all of that sort of level of support, and I've noticed a bunch of stores have been doing their window fronts and and that kind of stuff too. It feels awesome. It feels really visible and validated and just gives me hope that next year and in future years, we can get them to put up some of the other flags like the trans flag, the intersex flag, the flag, the lesbian flag, the bears, [00:06:30] everybody's flags and sorry for those I missed out because, you know, we've only got a short interview for you. What makes a successful pride festival for me? It would be an email. I got a Facebook message. Rather I got Today was somebody who said they felt really disconnected from our community for a few years now. And they were looking forward to attending as a few events or as many as they could over these two weeks and really wanted to have that sense of, like, wider [00:07:00] rainbow connectedness. And I believe they're coming here tonight, So looking forward to seeing them. Alright. Thank you. Bye. [00:07:30] [00:08:00] [00:08:30] Done [00:09:00] the last. [00:09:30] [00:10:00] Ok, [00:10:30] I'm now going to hand over the reins to to Greek. Yeah. Welcome to the Wellington Pride Festival [00:11:00] 2019 Launch. Wonderful to have so many people here this afternoon. Um, we have got 100 and 28 events this year in our festival. It's the biggest festival the biggest pride festival Wellington has seen And you can see it on the street. There's rainbow flags We've got the rainbow crossing We've got the big rainbow stripped out of the airport and you can feel the energy. And I'm sure the next two weeks is gonna be something that this city will really enjoy. That [00:11:30] certainly been very, um, awesome to be to be to be part of it all and to be on the board. Uh, that produces such an event. It's with great pleasure. Um, that I get to introduce, uh, Justin, our mayor, who's who's a great supporter of ours. Justin's here to say a few words and, um, and and cut the ribbon and officially open the Pride festival in 2019. [00:12:00] Greg, uh um, great to see you all here this evening. Uh, thanks, Greg, for breaking the microphone. I think he was officially our office microphone as well. So, uh, I am not sure what I'm gonna do for the rest of the year. Uh, but we'll work it all out. Fine. Uh, look, It's a real pleasure for me to be here tonight. I'm here with, uh my, uh, Councillor Brian Dawson and Peter Gilbert. And we are at the council Are just huge supporter. The Pride Festival. I do [00:12:30] want to acknowledge, uh, MP, uh, green MP. Jan Loy has a huge support of the festival and the rainbow community generally. Jan, great to have you here. Look, I'm really excited for the next couple of weeks ahead. It's going to be busy, but it's just gonna be so much fun. Uh, the Rainbow community has been putting on the Pride Festival for a large number of years and always said the city support. Uh, but we're just showing that with a little bit more investment with a little bit more support how much more? Uh, we can do. It's great to see [00:13:00] all of Wellington coming right on board. We're gonna have 100 and 80 events over a couple of weeks. We're gonna have, um, out in the park. We'll have the biggest pride parade we've ever seen in the city's history as well. And the first time that Australasia is going to be hosting. And I can't wait for that, too. I mean, why is it so important to me and to the council and to all Wellingtons? And look, I have to be honest, There are a large number of big parts of the job, but are really tough on, you know? Could [00:13:30] be a real grind on a day to day basis. Um, but just last week, I got an email after talking to a father of a young Wellington, and he wrote me this email to say that his son was transitioning to become his daughter. And just at an early stage going through college and how much it meant to their family and to his daughter to have the support and the embracing of the city to see things like they may be seen as tokens or symbols like the the new [00:14:00] airport, a rainbow, um, symbol as well. And it means so much to them. And it meant so much because we we all know the statistics around youth, um, as they're coming out, and we know how difficult that transition could be, but just how much it meant to their family. And it makes my job so worthwhile. Like I read that, that was the same for the next couple of years. Uh, it's really good to see, uh, the the the important impact that little things I can have on people's [00:14:30] everyday lives. So really happy to be a supporter. Well done to all of you. Uh, given the thank you for your support. Thank you for everything you've done with looking forward the next couple of weeks to go 54. Ah, [00:15:00] very small. My name is Greg Wilson. I'm co-chair of, uh, Wellington Pride Festival. And today we've just had the, uh, Wellington Pride Festival 2019. Launch, uh, with Mayor Justin Lester coming down to cut our big long rainbow ribbon to officiate the opening of the festival. Um, that we have 100 and 28 events over two weeks with our, [00:15:30] uh, flagship events, um, out out on the park on the 16th of March at down at Civic Square. Uh, and also, uh, a youth ball, um, which is held to this year. Uh, and there's of course, there's the Wellington International Pride Parades don't court any place next Saturday. So a lot happening over a two week period. Is this the biggest festival we've had in Wellington. It is absolutely Yeah, absolutely. I've been involved in this organisation for about six years, and this certainly is the biggest. The town is is painted in rainbow [00:16:00] flags. We've got the airport. They come on board with the big rainbow stripped down by the by the runway. Uh, we've got the, um, the rainbow crossing. So there's a real energy and feeling in the city when people are walking around the city, especially our delegates that are coming over for the conference. They're going to see and feel the the rainbow atmosphere of Wellington City. It's very exciting. And that's the first time that the bags have gone up and the airport has been painted. What is that like? Can you describe that feeling when you're walking through the city and you see all those rainbows? Yeah, it is one of our goals at the start of the year when our board formed was that we wanted [00:16:30] to, um, increase the visibility, um, of our festival and and our pride festival. Um, visibility is really important because it represents what we stand for in terms of diversity and inclusion for people. And so, um, getting the city covered in rainbow flags was, uh was, you know, one of our one of our goals, and we've achieved it. Um, I think that when people walk around the city, whether they're from our community or, um, other communities, they will, um they understand what it means. And, um, hopefully [00:17:00] you know what it represents. Now, there's been some fracturing in the Auckland communities around the pride events up in Auckland. How can you compare and contrast Auckland with what? What's happening here in Wellington? Yeah, sure. I think you know, a number of people have said to me over the years, you know, Wellington has a real community, not just the not just the gay population. We have a community here in Wellington, and that's a really great um, diverse, Um um, community and we We seem to band together and just get on with it. Um, you [00:17:30] know, being involved on the board, we've got a very diverse board and, you know, a little bit like like a coalition of the the Greens and the National Party and Labour Party and New Zealand. First, we all come together all different backgrounds, and, um, we all get on. Well, and we We all know why we're on the board, Why we're there and we focus on that. And the outcome is this festival. And what are the events that you're looking forward to the most, uh, out in the park is, uh, one of my favourite ones. Great opportunity to catch up with [00:18:00] friends that you haven't seen for a long time. You know, it's, um it's a special day. It's a real mixed, um, mix mixed crowd. And, you know, um, I'm just hoping the weather's gonna be good. Jessie, we're here at the launch of the Wellington Pride 2019. Um, what do, uh, pride festivals and pride events mean to you? To be honest, it is a chance for a community that often doesn't get to be visible in a, um [00:18:30] positive and especially in a safe way, to be able to come together and be visible, be themselves, not have to be thinking about how they dress, how they walk, how they talk, whether someone's gonna take it the wrong way. And funnily enough, it is an event where we can actually just be ourselves and be normal. We don't stand out. We're not different from everyone around us. You know, we can just have fun and be seen. Um especially for people who may not have that community yet They may feel alone and they can see there is this community [00:19:00] and there are people who are happy and healthy and just having a good time. There's certainly a lot of happiness and good times happening at the moment. And I, I wonder if you can You are you able to, like maybe, um, contrast? What maybe happened in Auckland in terms of the fracturing of community to the kind of inclusive kind of community I'm feeling kind of here in Wellington? Yeah. Oh, there's a um let me just think about V. To be honest, I think a big advantage Wellington has Yes, we are much smaller. We are much more close knit. Everyone [00:19:30] knows everyone. And I think that makes a big difference because even if you disagree with someone you know them you hang out at you see them at IV. You see them at S and Ms you see them at events like this. I think to be honest, we had the advantage of being forearmed we saw what went down in Auckland. We were prepared for it and we thought, OK, so how do we learn from that? And how do we do this differently? Um, so I think it was a bit of both. What events are you looking forward to? The most. Oh, well, so out in the park. Definitely. Because our gender minorities will have a store there. Shout [00:20:00] out, um, that I will be helping out with. There is an event that I'm helping run on Sunday the 17th, which is the Trans and Allies, um, event at the Southern Cross at 4 p. m. Awesome. Come to that. Um and, uh, there's another gender minorities event. Um, I'm keen for the crossover with I was just saying I just noticed that the actual pussy riot are coming, which is super cool. And I want to come to that. And I will be coming to your yellow walk. Yes. Tell me, if somebody couldn't attend, [00:20:30] for whatever reason, Um, the Pride festival this year. What would be the the message that you would give to give to somebody in Wellington? Um, like that community is there all year round. You know, we've got two weeks where we have an awesome festival. We all get together. We're very visible. But if you need to reach out, if you need support, if you're fling alone or isolated, you know we're around these gender minorities inside out outer space, there's Rainbow Wellington. There's a lot of groups out there, you know, So you're not on your own now. Justin Lester, the [00:21:00] mayor, was talking about all the rainbow flags in Wellington and also the airport being painted in rainbow colours. What does that do for you on a personal note? I love it. I love it, and I've been enjoying it for the last few weeks. The out in the park post is the rainbow things, and it is just I mean, it's nice and it's pretty and all of that. But to be honest, I feel safe walking around the streets. I feel safe and I feel accepted, and that is just a huge thing. Do you feel unsafe when it's not pride time? Not to the degree that a lot [00:21:30] of people do, So I'm transgender. I have basically transitioned into a middle class white male with a stable job. As privilege goes in my community. I'm right up there. But I still know I don't feel safe. Um, a lot of the time. I am lucky because I'm not visibly trans. Um, but, you know, every time I especially if I go to a bar, if I use a public bathroom, there's just that voice in the back of my head going. What if someone clocks you? What if they have a problem with it? You're gonna be stuck in an isolated room or you're [00:22:00] gonna be on a dark street with a bunch of drunk guys or, you know, you just don't You don't always feel safe, Unfortunately, and often, um, these things happen at the most unexpected times. Like, uh, me and my partner were walking the other day and a guy was abusing us, calling us fucking faggots and stuff like that. And you think, Well, this is a Sunday afternoon at one o'clock, Really? It wasn't even at night. Yeah, and that's it. And it's like you say, it just comes out of the dark like a lot of the time. You're kind of braced and things are fine. And then suddenly it comes out of nowhere, literally someone punches you [00:22:30] in the back of the head or something like that. And what do you do? Because what? That guy a couple of years ago got punched in the back of the head on Walcott Street and that was at the reporter and he was He was dead. You know, it's it's It sucks, you know, And that's not even getting into employment discrimination. You know, not being able to keep a roof over the head because you can't get employed. I've been bullied at work. I've had people gossip at work. Call me it, um, and things like that, you know? So it's it's Wellington is a great place, but there's it It's still not an [00:23:00] equal equal field. So something like this for two weeks a year where it is about us and where it is OK to be us. And it's celebrated to be us, and also to to celebrate organisations like gender minorities, which is so important, hugely, hugely important. And all of those groups Yeah, gender minorities inside out Rainbow Wellington all do so much good work for our community and need a lot of money. So please give us money. I'm Justin Lester, mayor of Wellington. We've just been here for the Pride [00:23:30] Festival launch. It's kicking off. Uh uh, more than 100 and 80 events over the course of the Pride Festival. Uh, we're going to see the biggest festival we've ever seen in Wellington's history. Uh, we're gonna have out in the park. We have the Wellington International Pride Parade. We're hosting the conference here for the first time in Australasia's, uh, history. And we've got all of Wellington embracing the Pride Festival. So it's great to see organisations like Wellington Airport come on board the rainbow flags flying all around the city and Wellington ends is getting right in behind pride. [00:24:00] Why do you think pride is important? Uh, we want to show that we're a progressive, inclusive city. Uh, we embrace and celebrate all of our diversity. Uh, and the and the movement as a real key part of that, uh, for all people, Um, want to make sure they feel very welcome in Wellington. And we make sure we do the multicultural communities, uh, new people coming to Wellington and Pride's been a key part of it. [00:24:30] You mentioned that the there's a huge, uh, painting on the embankment of the international airport and also the rainbow flags. What kind of feedback have you had from those? I've had absolutely brilliant feedback. Uh, I. I mentioned the story just previously when I was speaking about, uh, a young individual who's transitioning from, uh, from a boy to, uh, to being a girl and just in terms of how much it meant to them and to the individual's family, uh, to have that symbol of support, uh, that that, uh, that [00:25:00] gesture, that Look, we're there for you. We support you, and and we care for you. So it really does mean a lot to a lot of people. Now, last year, you were in Wellington's Pride parade. Um, what was the feeling like? Oh, it's fantastic. Um, I think it's gonna be even better this year. This year I'm looking forward to having, uh, the commissioner for the police, uh, marching alongside us as well as the defence force here, Uh, and we'll have an even bigger parade. More groups coming on board. Wellington Orchestra will be there. [00:25:30] Uh, the Royal New Zealand Ballet is going to be performing as well. Uh, and so hopefully we'll see throngs of people coming out to to support, uh, the pride parade. If there was, uh, an LGBTI a person that couldn't make it to the Pride Festival or the Pride parade this year, Um, would you have a message for them? Uh, look, we're right there for you as a city. Uh, Wellington really does pride itself as being a rainbow city. And, um, come check out the capital Bill. We're at the, uh, [00:26:00] launch of Wellington's Pride Festival 2019. Can you describe what the feelings been like today? Um, it's really exciting, and it's really positive. Um, it's really cool that we've got, um, Mayor Justin Lester here and we've got Jan Loy. Uh, it's a little disappointing that it's an invite on the event and that there is hardly any young people here. Um, which is a shame, because pride should be for everyone. But, um, it's a good start, and I'm sure that there's gonna be a lot more youth friendly events. It sounds like a jam packed programme this year. [00:26:30] I it does. It sounds like a really big programme. Um, and I think it's even more exciting that we've got Elga world coming this year. And as one of the 12 delegates who went to Thailand, um, in 2016 to bring it here, I think I know exactly the excitement and, um, what it's like to be a part of that. So I'm really excited that that's going to be here in our little city and Australasia for the first time. Can you describe what it was like actually attending an conference? Yeah, so it's really big, Um, and I think it goes beyond any scale that [00:27:00] I've ever seen here in New Zealand. But, um, at the same time, it's really, really beautiful seeing all these different communities come together and all our international delegates from around the world. And I've met one of my really good friends there and who I saw in Philadelphia last year. Um and so it's a really awesome opportunity to meet new people, learn and get, um, a bigger sense of sort of the issues that everyone's facing because the issues that we face here are nothing compared to other countries where it's it's illegal to even be gay. [00:27:30] So um yeah, it's it's really diverse and interesting and of course, This is a big year for Elga. It's their 40th, but it's also the 50th of Stonewall this year. Yeah, yeah, it's really exciting. It's the 50th anniversary of Stonewall, and I think that it's really important to remember that that movement started with transwomen and also trans women of colour and showing the strength that our diverse trans women, um, and our trans women of colour, um, hold and the places that they hold within our community and it it really puts into perspective [00:28:00] how far we've come but also how behind we are, particularly with the birth death marriages, um, update being deferred. So small things like that. Uh, it's a real shame. Are you doing anything special for Stonewall? 50? Uh, I may or may not be going to New York to celebrate it at New York. Pride and world pride, Um, which I'm very excited about. I will take an empty suitcase to bring back lots of shoes. I think it's going to be a really awesome opportunity, um, to meet [00:28:30] lots of people to network. There's a human rights conference that I'm gonna go to, Um and I think last year when I was in New York City. I got to go to the LGBT Centre and the building there is incredible. It's a four story building and it's got, um, a theatre. It's got a library, a bookstore, and it's just incredible. So I'm really excited to see the scale of pride in another country and knowing that here we could very easily get ourselves up to those sort of levels in the next 5 to 10 years. So [00:29:00] So having that international experience of, uh, various rainbow communities, how does it, um, how how how does it compare to, say, Wellington and New Zealand? I think that here we're a lot more divided. But I think that I only notice that here because I'm so in amongst it. And I'm sure that there's an international feeling. I think that it's really important that we as a community take stock, and we look at where we're at, how far we've come and [00:29:30] look at those minorities that really need to be able, uplifted and included in these events and these these spaces, you know, like our young people and our, um, our cultural communities that aren't even in the language that we use for pride. You know, um, our communities, they all should be a part of this, But there's there's no engagement, so we're quite divided. But there's people that really care, and there's people that are doing the best that they can with the opportunities that are provided to them. And so [00:30:00] that's really exciting. One of the things I've noticed in Wellington this year is there seems to be a lot more kind of, um, support from, uh, other organisations, both kind of commercial, but also government organisations. So you've got flags around the city. You've got the international airport painted in rainbow colours. What? What are your thoughts on that? Um you know, I think it's really exciting that we've got more support. I think that it's really cool that councils jumped on board, but at the same time, we would acknowledge that it's really disappointing that they're supportive. [00:30:30] Yet they've known that pride is going to happen this time and they've known that the world was coming for the last three years Now, Um yet they've still put other events in amongst our pride, massive events, which means that out in the park, you know, has to move back to the square and just get a lot smaller in size than it once was when this could have been such an incredible year. So I think that it's they've put on a beautiful show. But I think behind the scenes, it's like pulling the curtain back for The Wizard of Oz. You know, there's [00:31:00] quite a lot of machinery there that could have done better. But, I mean, I don't want to be a negative Nancy about it, because it's still really awesome that, you know, the mayor is a part of it and that he is supportive. I think it's just acknowledging that you could do better. So you've got a really big year with New York and and other events. What are the things you're looking forward to the most this year? Uh, definitely going back to New York. Um, I'm also going to Cape Town in South Africa with a delegation [00:31:30] of New Zealand women for the International Lesbian Buy and Queer Feminist Conference. Um, so I'm really excited for that. It's the first one that's happened, and I'm sure that that will lead to some really cool projects and networking and opportunities. Um, and then just looking after myself. I think this year has already proved that it's gonna be very stressful and difficult for trans people. So it's really important to take a step back and to look after me for myself. First, eat the food that I want and listen to what my body is saying. So, [00:32:00] um, and not get too caught up in, um, the hate that is going towards trans women at the moment. So, yeah, how do you stay strong? Uh, champagne food. Uh, Netflix and good friends and good family. I'm really lucky that tonight my mum is here with me, um, and that I've got such beautiful friends and behind me to support me in the endeavours that I do that are always there to listen to me and to vent with me and [00:32:30] to offer me more champagne. So I'm really lucky in that sense. And I think that it highlights that there are so many that don't have a lot of that support behind us. And I think that's where we really need to focus our attention. And that's where I think Council and government should be putting more money and time into it. Supporting those that don't have the support at the moment through our youth organisations like outer spaces and inside out. So my name is Stephen. I'm the secretary for the Wellington Pride Festival. Stephen, how much work [00:33:00] goes on behind the scenes for a pride festival? A lot of work, A lot of work. Um, so we run a number of the events, uh, for the festival. So the big ones out in the park, um, we organise the after party at pride picnic tomorrow, Um, a youth ball. But, um, in addition to that, we coordinate the whole festival, the two week period or the events, Um, getting them all together, um, scheduling them, putting them into a programme. [00:33:30] And, yeah, this is this is the the product of all that work. What's the most stressful part? I think it's It's getting a lot of people together. Who? We're all volunteers. Nobody's paid. We've all got day jobs, Um, and getting us all together to talk about the hard issues. Some things you can do offline, but you do have to get together and meet and discuss the difficult issues. Um, and and yeah, it's it's a matter of getting the the [00:34:00] team to, um, develop a report so that you do function as a team because, you know, to you, you do need the unity there to really deliver a cohesive product which we, we hopefully this this festival will will show and you say difficult issues. Um, give me examples. What? What? What are some difficult issues? Um, there's always, um, difficult issues. Um, confronting the the rainbow community. Um, one, that one. That's sort of been in the headlines recently is, um, what [00:34:30] they call the turf? Um, it's it's, uh, a lobby group, um, of women who don't like trans women. And, you know, we have to think about Well, how do we respond to these sorts of things? And, um, if if the and the the risks, I guess that they pose to events like this, um, how how do we respond? Yeah, so So, yeah, there's that's just one example, But there's every year something happens. Are there other big issues this year? [00:35:00] Well, we had to work through, um, how we wanted to respond to, um, the issue with between the police and the Auckland Pride Board. Um, we it it it was a tricky, tricky set of issues. Um, and there was a diversity of views in in in the committee, but we had to come together and and work through that, and, yeah, we I think we came out with a pretty good result. The police are, um, gonna be a part of out in the park, but [00:35:30] they will be there in, um, more of a capacity to engage with the community. Um, so, yeah, I think I think that we've got a good, um, result out of that. And did the committee kind of, uh, take any lessons from kind of the the the fractured nature of what happened in Auckland? Yeah. Yeah. Um, I, I think we we really thought hard about, um how we responded. Um, we we worked hard at talking to the police, um, at every every step, Um, [00:36:00] and and we we really worked hard at working through the issues together. Um, we also we we also, um, like the Auckland board. Um, talk to the community about it as well. And And that and you know that that really is our guide. Like we're here to represent the community. We're not here to do what we want to do. So, yeah, but looking at the really, um, large programme this year. What? What What are the things that stand out to you? Wow, [00:36:30] I could tell you about, um, my my choir's performance, Um, at the end of the conference with the top twins, that's going to be a highlight for me. Um, I'm also gonna go check out some of the drag shows. And, um, there's a special screening of the Stonewall movie. Um, that we organised. Um, and I'm I'm excited about that because it's the 50th anniversary. I was only in New York last year at the Stonewall place, so I'm really excited about seeing that movie, too. [00:37:00] One of the things that really struck me about Wellington this year is that the, um there are flags all around town rainbow flags. Uh, there's a big rainbow painting on the Wellington airport. What does How does that make you feel? Oh, amazing. Amazing. So I was, um I was away on a trip a couple of years ago, um, around Scandinavia and every big city. It was around pride times, every big city. It was just rainbows everywhere. I was like, Wow, this has never happened in Wellington. And, [00:37:30] um, I just thought, Wow, wouldn't it be great if if something like that happened here in Wellington, But I think it's just a coincidence of all these great events that are happening where we were responsible for those drop down banners. But actually, it was a, um the conference that got the the big, um, rainbow at the airport. Um, you know, um, sorted. And then, um, the Wellington Pride parade, um, international pride parade. They've organised, um, the shopfronts to be decorated with rainbow. So it's a it's it's [00:38:00] a It's a big joint effort from across the community. And it and it it's great seeing seeing, um, the symbol of of queerness and acceptance here. So, yeah, it's wonderful. So, dear and John, you've seen many, uh, Rainbow celebrations in Wellington. How does this one compare the the one we're about to embark on? Well, what's extraordinary is the amount of events and just how it's grown. And it's just so wonderful [00:38:30] to see so many young people willing to be out, be proud and just be part of the rainbow community, which is so important The visibility because that is how we stop homophobia. My impression, I think, is really that there's been such a tremendous involvement by the whole community. It's not just the gay lesbian LGBT, whatever it is, plus, uh, that are involved, that the City Council, the airport, the [00:39:00] whole range of sponsors, and the city itself seems to be relishing to be part of the Pride Festival. And I think it's very exciting because going back 30 or so years, there were just 10 stalls and a fair in Newtown school, a fair for a fair law. And it's come a long way. Thank goodness. Just remembering the very first fear and the battle I had to hold in a Newtown school hall. The headmaster said no. But there was a woman on the, uh, on part of the administration of [00:39:30] the, uh, Newtown School and she said yes. And so I remember that well, the battle. And then, first of all, it was going ahead. Then it wasn't. Then it was. And then we got it, and it was all held in the hall. And then it expanded to the grounds. And now look at this. It's expanded. Wow. All of Wellington from the airport to the other side. I know it's amazing. And did you ever imagine that you would be able to walk down Courtney Place or on the waterfront and see Rainbow flags and go past the airport? I didn't see [00:40:00] a huge big rainbow on the front. No, no, I didn't think I didn't even think about that. It was bad enough trying to get our flags and things around the Newtown, and I remember the taking the posters around to different shops to display and the flack I got from some of them, including ST Vincent de Paul and then the next fear. I did exactly the same route, and it was more accepting and then the next one, because I don't [00:40:30] know if you know it, but I ran it for 10 years and I just saw this progress and this is progress. So can you describe the feeling now when you see all those rainbow flags around Wellington? Oh good, Yeah, I. I just feel that there's so much Wellington's got going for it, and this is really part of a city that's diverse and accepting tolerant. There is just so much and also pollution free. It's [00:41:00] not just a surprise, I guess. Total amazement. There is so much public evidence of a rainbow community at this time that the flags on the poles, the airport is astonishing. Uh, I mean to paint the grass. I don't know how long it took, but it's going to last for four weeks. It's a wonderful site for the people coming to the conference to fly in and just see that at the end of the runway. Wow, it's great to have a mayor who's so supportive [00:41:30] and I really hope Auckland get a a mayor that is gay. Supportive. Now, John, you're wearing a T shirt that says Civil Union poster Boys tie the knot. Who could that be? I wonder it might possibly be John and his way. Way back in 2005, we had the first civil union of Wellington, and it was an amazing experience, and it's continued to be an amazing city for me. Been so supportive. Um, I didn't realise the [00:42:00] picture was still lasting on the T shirt. It's getting a bit elderly now, like me and, um, but, you know, since then, we've had, um, not just civil unions. But we now have the right to same sex marriage, which I think is absolutely stunning. And, uh, it's It's fabulous. It's a great city, and it's a great country. And so will you both be marching in this year's Pride parade. We will. We will, definitely. Oh, yes. We'll be there. We did march on the first one. We got, [00:42:30] uh, rotten tomatoes chucked out. When was that? That was about 1987 and I'm very, very happy to march with any policeman in uniform. I don't think we're gonna have the sort of fractured community that they seem to have in Auckland. Um, why did they do that in Auckland when we fought against discrimination for years and they suddenly turn around and start discriminating crazy? [00:43:00] I've got a police hat to wear on the parade and a new a New York Police Department Jockstrap. So that's all you're wearing? A jockstrap and a hand. Uh, no. No one wants to see an old guy like me, But what? What? Good idea. Yeah, I right.

IRN: 1270
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/reflection_on_pride_and_the_christchurch_massacre.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004553
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089847
TITLE: Rev. Dr. Susan Jones - reflection on Pride and the Christchurch massacre
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Rev Dr Susan Jones
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bible; Bronwyn White; Christchurch; Christchurch terror attack (2019); David Gushee; Islam; Jacinda Ardern; Jewish community; Judaism; Muslims; Out in the Park (Wellington); Pride Parade (Wellington); Pride parade; Rev Dr Susan Jones; St Andrew's on the Terrace; Wellington; Wellington Pride Festival (2019); crime; heterosexual; homosexual; love; religion; white supremacist violence
DATE: 17 March 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: St Andrew's on the Terrace, 30 The Terrace, Wellington
CONTEXT: Rev Dr Susan Jones reflects on Pride and the Christchurch massacre. The reflection was part of a service held during Wellington's Pride Festival, and less than 48-hours since the massacre of 51 people at two Christchurch mosques.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: After Friday, We all are thinking new thoughts. We are all looking at ourselves and our country in a new way. So may we see what it is that we can learn even from a tragedy such as we have experienced. So it may it be, I mean, so where do you start? [00:00:30] Where do you begin to unravel the events of Christchurch, 15th of March 2019? At first I thought, changing the reflection today left out the very group whose festival is right now, the rainbow community with its variety of sexual orientations and gender identities. And then I thought again, because what happened in Christchurch is just another facet of the difficulty [00:01:00] we all have as human beings relating to and embracing those who are other. To us, it's significant. I think, that three particular closures I heard of requested by police in the past two or three days affect groups that suffer the same circumstance. In some way. They are different from the majority or the perceived norm. Obviously, mosques were requested to suspend their services. [00:01:30] The Muslim community, though not inconsiderable in numbers, is a minority in this country, and on Saturday, so too, was the Jewish synagogue asked not to meet another religious minority, and also the pride parade and the fair out in the park were cancelled. So the Muslim, the Jewish and the Rainbow communities are all minorities within Western society, and that difference that minority [00:02:00] status makes the rest of that society edgy. And it's tragically obvious that it makes a group of white supremacists and this weekend one man in particular, so edgy that they see the need to resort to deadly force. And it's a sad irony that we might feel more comfortable worshipping here today than at the mosque or the synagogue, because the perpetrator on Friday was as much as we might [00:02:30] hate to say it, one of us, even though our prime minister has been at pains to point out that this is not New Zealand, in fact, we all have our shadow side. We all have fears and anxieties that we have pushed back and down and away. We have to do that to survive some of the circumstances of our lives, and these fears lie deep [00:03:00] down and keep us from being as open and free as we might be. We do not perhaps pick up a machine gun. In fact, I devoutly hope not. But whenever someone is around who is different from us, it tests our inner fortitude to be open, welcoming and friendly in the same way that we are open and welcoming and friendly to those who are like ourselves. [00:03:30] And that applies in all groups. Heterosexuals might be surprised to know that around them, in some situations, gays feel awkward and uneasy. We know now for sure that walking around New Zealand society for Muslims will not be as easy if it was easy before. And I think particularly of a Somalian woman that was on the TV. One news special last night, dressed in a a yellow, um robe are too scared to go out of her own [00:04:00] house, and it was pretty obvious she didn't have much English. So how is that woman in the future going to feel, um, how is she going to be able to reintegrate into our society? And unfortunately, the Jewish community is frequently reminded that the gentiles around them are not always friendly. I spent a year in the US in the late 19 seventies. It was a revelation how ordinary Americans could be. [00:04:30] Up until then, I had only known Americans as a group that were foreign to me. I was there during the Iranian hostage crisis, and it was very revealing to find myself in a creative dramatics class with American students, as well as some Iranian engineering students who were unable to go home for the December break because the president, Jimmy Carter, had frozen their family's assets. You could have cut the air with a knife when the Iranian students identified themselves [00:05:00] on the first day. I also discovered on that trip that there are several Americas within the USA East. Coasters I met in Philadelphia didn't understand the Kansas people I knew in the Midwest and the Midwest didn't particularly care whether the East Coast or the West Coast approved of them. I can see now that's part of the deep divisions that we can see in that country. What we do is take all [00:05:30] that fearful anxiety we have tucked away and project it onto those whom we do not know or understand or have not yet met. We feel an uneasiness around them that's like the uneasiness we feel about our own fears and anxieties tucked away in our shadow side. So we put the two together and the other wears it for us. It's so much more comfortable if someone else can be to blame. [00:06:00] And we noticed this in war time because it's so extreme. Hitler became the repository of all the evil we could imagine. He certainly perpetrated evil acts. But often, however, the person we credit with malign motives is just different. A different colour. Different sex, gender, race, culture, religion or theology, orientation or identity. And the less we know personally about someone, the easier [00:06:30] it is to pile upon them all we want to get rid of in ourselves. So when Jacinda tells us this is not New Zealand, the unfortunate truth is that it is really We are not a pure white or pure green nation completely different from everyone else. We are fallible, too. We can mistake someone different for someone frightening or bad. And while [00:07:00] this perpetrator deserves the punishment set down in the law, let's not make him the scapegoat for the discomfort that we feel when the faces around us are increasingly different from ours, or when the varieties of gender identity within the rainbow community proliferate beyond heterosexual understanding. We all need to manage our anxieties, become aware of that which we are projecting onto others, which is really our own stuff. [00:07:30] There's a never ending path of transformation and maturation, which we all need to be walking. It's a path that the gunman in Christchurch had obviously not taken. We heard in the story of David and Jonathan earlier how two men, because of their love for each other, helped each other despite having been cast on opposite sides of a tribal conflict. [00:08:00] They both risked their lives Jonathan in warning David in this event, and David in later life when he befriends and helps Jonathan's maimed son, keeping the oath that he swears in the passage you heard read. They love each other as they loved themselves, something Jesus and all the major religions urge us to do to love first ourselves and then to [00:08:30] similarly love our neighbour. And we know from the story of the Good Samaritan that our neighbour is not only someone of our own race. They could even be our long term enemy. In the gospel reading today, Jesus showed on the Sabbath and the synagogue that he is one who defies current understandings. He extends care for the human person beyond the current rules. He upsets [00:09:00] the establishment by going beyond what is expected or allowed for. So may we do the same as we move around our world, always putting people before what is expected or before what has been traditionally demanded. May we learn from David Gushy? The contemporary reading was part of a speech that he made, um at a gay conference. He now regrets the two decades he spent in denial [00:09:30] and rejection of the gay community within the church. And now he and another scholar, Matthew Vine, have given us different ways to interpret the very scriptures that have been claimed to exclude gays from Christianity. And you'll find reference to both of those men and the other reflection that was written for today. Briefly, What's happened in the Bible is that from mediaeval times, contemporary fears and prejudices have been read back into Scripture, [00:10:00] altering the original meaning of passengers and missing the fact that the behaviours that are condemned aren't specifically homosexual behaviours, but simply bad ways to conduct relationships of any type. All of us need help in the personal self-control and self management that helps us to be good relationship partners, irrespective of our orientation or our gender identity. For our psychological and emotional health, all relationships need [00:10:30] to be loving, nonviolent, mutual faithful and as long lasting as we can manage. Love your neighbour as you love yourself, the golden rule common to Christianity and Islam and Judaism as well as in other major world religions. We all know we need to do this, but because of that shadow side [00:11:00] that we all have, it takes effort and persistence and patience and courage. So let us exercise that persistent and patience and courage and so welcome with open arms, those who differ from us. Today we welcome the rainbow community with joy and delight, appreciating their creativity and stamina, their courage and risk taking their persistence in the face of [00:11:30] prejudice. And today, especially, we include in that welcome the Muslim community, many migrants to this country where you leave to be away from war zones and discrimination and yet now afraid in this country for a new reason. Sisters and brothers let us love one another for love is of God.

IRN: 1273
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/pride_stage_2019.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004554
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089848
TITLE: Pride Stage 2019
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Callan James; Chanel Hati; Courtney L'Amour; Drew Hadwen; Roxy Coervers; Steven Mawhinney; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Biohazard: a Hyper-Queen Drag Show (Wellington); Callan James; Canterbury; Chanel Hati; Christchurch; Christchurch terror attack (2019); Courtney L'Amour; CubaDupa (Wellington); Disney Youth Ball (Wellington, 2019); Drew Hadwen; Eva Beva; Hikoi to Out in the Park; ILGA World Conference (2019); Ivy Bar and Cabaret; Massey University; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; Māori; Narukami Taiko; Out Wellington Inc.; Out in the Park (Wellington); Roxy Coervers; Steven Mawhinney; Tīwhanawhana; Wellington; Wellington Pride; Wellington Pride Festival (2019); Wellington Pride Stage (2019); bigotry; drag; facebook. com; grief; hate; hate crime; hīkoi; lesbian; massacre; music; performance; poetry; police; racism; security; security check; singing; teaching; terrorism; transgender; volunteer
DATE: 30 March 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Eva Beva, 31-35 Dixon Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the Wellington Pride Stage 2019, held at Eva Beva's on 30 March 2019. After the Christchurch terror attacks on 15 March 2019, Out in the Park and the community hikoi were cancelled. Pride Stage brought together some of the performers that were due to perform at Out in the Park for this event held during the CubaDupa festival.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm Roxy cos I'm co-chair of out Wellington Incorporated. We run Wellington Pride Festival to And today we are at Eva Beaver on Dexon Street for our 2. 0 can you describe what pride 2. 0 is 2. 0 it was it was born off the back of the horrific events of the 15th of March. Um, our original out in the Park Pride Day was slated for the 16th of March, But obviously, [00:00:30] due to many, many factors grief, uh, just the inappropriateness or the perceived inappropriateness of holding a celebration on a day where the nation is in mourning and also public safety. We had to make the very difficult call to postpone the event. Um, and we've been through a couple of different iterations trying to work in with the Cuba Duper Street Festival, which has also been moved indoors due to public safety. So here we are, at of the Wellington Pride stage, doing our little indoors pride [00:01:00] And what what's gonna happen today? Uh, so today we've got, uh, just a selection of performers that would have been at the original out in the park day. Um, we've got taco drums which is that massive noise right there. Uh, we've also got drag. We've got, uh, poetry, live music. There's a little bit of something for everyone. How hard was it to organise? Uh, today? Because we're only a couple of weeks out from from those massacres. Yeah, it was a lot of sleepless nights. Um, very difficult, especially because [00:01:30] with the current climate the way it is and large scale public festivals, nobody really knew what was going on. This is a first for everyone. Um, and we're all sort of struggling through it together. Um, but we all we all managed to make it work. And I'm happy that Cuba duer managed to pug through and make it work as well with a few slight adjustments. So it's been a time. What are you looking forward to the most this afternoon? I'm just looking forward to having our community get together and celebrate, and it's It's so hard [00:02:00] for us to, especially the volunteers on the committee that have put over a year's worth of blood, sweat and tears into this and all of the sponsors and the community at large that has put so much into this festival. and the out in the park there. And then for us to not be able to present it the way that we want it, it's I'm just really looking forward to coming together with our community and celebrating in the small way that we can. So, Drew, the last time we spoke was at the launch of Wellington Pride, [00:02:30] and that was a couple of weeks ago. And, um, between then and now, there has been some huge, huge events. Can you tell me, um, what's happened? Sure, I think. Yeah. Like a few weeks ago when we were launching the Pride Festival, we were worried we were going to have a bit of rain that might throw things out for the and out in the park. And I guess some things that happened in the following week, none of us could have anticipated. You know, we had a little bit of, uh, public attack [00:03:00] from groups in our community whose doesn't in line with our inclusiveness kind of policy. Um, they were making, you know, big bold statements about young lesbians being banned from out in the park. When, in fact, we'd said because you say hateful things about um, trans women and are not inclusive of them. Then you can't have a stall out in the park. It was quite a different thing. And they did that spin. So there we were, managing that. And, um, we were really [00:03:30] clear that, you know, out in the park at Wellington, everything we do is inclusive of all of the many gorgeous colours that make up our extended rainbow. Um, so there was the weather. There was that. And then there was just the mind blowing events that happened in Christchurch. The tragic, horrible, hate filled, um, thing down there that just blew all of us out of the water, irrespective of pride in the and it really brought to the [00:04:00] fore. Um, the the bigotry, the hate, the unnecessary stuff across aotearoa towards many minority communities, including our own. So we we had to make a really difficult decision, and we sought the police's advice because obviously safety First, we needed to put members of our own communities along with the wider Wellington community, who are coming along to celebrate pride with us ahead of everything else. So that's what so the the [00:04:30] mosque attacks happened on Friday afternoon, out on the park and the were due for Saturday. Yeah, they were, um we were scheduled for the very next day, and our rain day was just the day after that. The Sunday So we, um, just made the decision to really clearly say that it was cancelled because the advice we were getting from, um, the police was they had no idea what this looked like or what it was going to look like. They knew that in other places, [00:05:00] they were often copycats or just people who thought they might give it a go and express their own hate towards minority communities. And they actually, like called, called me back a few times on that Friday night to say they were really pleased that we decided to cancel rather than postpone at this point, because they recognised our community, as you know, a minority community, too. And there was some manifesto that apparently named our communities, so their, um their support was, you know, safety [00:05:30] first and all of our well being ahead of anything else. Really? We got a bit of pushback. There were people posting stuff on Facebook. Um, we know that people need to express. You know their grief or manage how they're feeling around the change in circumstances. So we just tried to let that, um, just let let that sit there and and and for everyone to sit in some discomfort around it. And then other members of our communities were acknowledging that although they realised [00:06:00] it was a real tough decision and were a little disappointed they supported that decision and thanked us. So it was a nice balance and conversation. So how does it work and and what What is it, like having to cancel something so kind of immediately? Because I imagine there are so many things kind of, um, in train at that point in time. Yeah. Like many, many months of work for all of us on the committee, A lot of sleep deprivation amongst us. Um, and a lot of people beyond [00:06:30] us were involved, you know, been doing many months of organising for both the and out in the park and other elements of the festival. Um, it was really it was pretty heartbreaking. It was, um but yeah, like I said alongside that, that was so the thing that needed to be done. Um And I guess then we just went into the mode as a committee of OK, so there are many, many people across our communities telling us they want to come together and love and pride, what can we do? [00:07:00] So we started really quickly to have conversations with the team that were organising Cuba duper. They were super supportive. We came up with a whole lot of ideas around having a stage out in Park, some stores up, um, Eva, Eva Street and the Lane Ways off there as well as, um, the still being a part of, like within Cuba. And that was all tracking along nicely. Then they were in a similar position to us. They got an independent, um, risk assessment done and [00:07:30] had to make the difficult call to move Cuba duper indoors. So we totally feel for them. We know what it's like to have to make those decisions, and we totally respect and to what what they've done for today. And we're really grateful we can have a pride stage with some of the out in the park performers here at Eva Beaver. So tell me about the event today, so we're, um, calling at the Wellington Pride stage. You know, um, Cuba Duer indoors, and it's here at Beaver. We've got, [00:08:00] um, nine or 10 of the original performers that were scheduled for out in the park are available today to perform, So they're going to join us. Uh, free entry, obviously. Um, like everything else is Cuba Duer. That's moved indoors. And it's just it's really nice for us as a committee, I think, to have been able to bring some small celebration of pride and to do it in love. Um, this soon after having to cancel the events of [00:08:30] 16 March. Um, yeah. Gosh, like I guess the one thing that's really special to me and really important, I think is that our are going to be opening this event, so we're gonna we're gonna be held in a really awesome space. Um, and that's an integral part of out in the park. And and our community, that's, you know, really awesome to be starting off with today. Just finally, on a personal note. [00:09:00] What effect did the massacres have on you? Oh, gosh. Gareth I I I've been saying to people all the emojis really so, um so brought to light that, um all the underlying stuff that is people pretend doesn't exist here in a And I'm just really hoping that, um, the conversations that people have started to have [00:09:30] will continue to be had. And, um, no matter how much hate that terrorist had, um, that and these conversations will keep going and things will change. And we perhaps it's not gonna be an overnight process, but we will walk that path to what people have pretended. Society is like here, and yeah, I've very long time had no tolerance for hate, and I hope that that [00:10:00] becomes the new normal. So, um, I'm a 19 year old singer, Um, based in upper heart. Um, I sing my own originals as well as do covers, and I am here to perform on the pride stage at festival today. Now, you were originally going to be at out in the park because of the tragedy that happened on Friday down in Christchurch. Um, it it wasn't a safe environment, nor did it feel [00:10:30] right, um, emotionally and mentally to, um, have the event carry on the weekend, the day after that kind of tragedy were to happen. Um So, uh, it got postponed. And, um, this is one alternative as to what's happening for us to still be able to celebrate who we are. What? What? What impact did the, um, Christchurch massacres have on you? Um, I was upset with what happened down there, so I [00:11:00] felt that our country, by from that tragedy, came together a lot stronger to, um, be one community. Um, in terms of the actual tragedy that happened, I was very upset to hear what had happened. And, um, I wanted to show support in any which way I can. I ended up writing a couple of songs out of it and hopefully record and release sometime soon in support of the Islamic community down in Christchurch and over and over the country to to to [00:11:30] be able to have that kind of release through writing. Uh um, music or a song? Um, must be very kind of therapeutic. Yeah. Yes, it does have that effect, especially for for me personally. Um, I can't speak for everybody, but I can speak for myself when I say, um, writing a song or writing music after a certain, um after a certain event, can really, Um, have my keep my mind at peace. [00:12:00] Yeah, And so today what What are you performing on stage? So today I'll be performing cover a cover set. Um, as I didn't prepare myself quick enough to do an original. Um, however, I am doing a 20 minute cover set of some pop songs and musical theatre. Um, and a couple of, uh, ballads as well. Yeah. And what what? What what's it like performing on stage? It gives me a rush. I mean, I. [00:12:30] I used to say music was my passion. And as much as music is a passion of mine, performance is more my number one, my number one thing I love being on stage. It just gives me such a rush, Whether it's 10 people or 100 people or 1000 people. However many people there are it just It just gives me it. It it keeps me engaged in what I do. Um, and with with my own music, it just keeps me. It just keeps me so engaged and yeah, [00:13:00] and in terms of musical and performance, Uh, what? Where do you see yourself going in the next couple of years? Well, um, after Because I'm currently studying my bachelor of commercial music at Massey. That's my final year. This year, um, I'll be going to do my postgraduate, um, diploma and secondary teaching. So I want to teach music. Um, however, um, my original dream was that I wanted to be, like most of the New Zealand Maori stars that we have in New Zealand [00:13:30] now, like, um, Macy, Stan Walker, They They're just a couple of my inspirations of where I want to strive to be when it comes to releasing my own music. And, um, and then also like to have an ambition to, like, take Maori music and Maori culture more into an international level. Um, taking it to a place where, you know, uh, taking yeah, taking it to a place where, you know, you've got the mainstream, um, community and per [00:14:00] se, um, and you've got them listening to it and them feeling something from it. And I mean, that's probably my number. One thing is, as long as they're feeling my music that that's that's a plus for me. That's the one. Uh, I'm Steven here with a beaver today for, um, the little mini pride stage that they're putting on it part of And that and Yeah. So you you you run Ivy Bar. What was, [00:14:30] um what was the mood like on the Friday, um, of the of the massacres? Um, it was a very strange night. Um, we had an event called biohazard, which was a hyper queen shows first ever all hyper queen show. So we had lots of people that came out to support this great event. Um, we had a really great MC, Judy, who we, you know, was really respectful because of what happened and managed to keep the mood respectful, but still had a good night. Um, afterwards, people were still out, but it was just you could just feel the somberness [00:15:00] and sort of tension in the air. Yeah. So people were still out, but it wasn't comfortable. Yeah. And how have the last two weeks been since we were about two weeks after the attacks. Now, um, two weeks. It's been a bit of a mixed bag. Everyone again is is a bit shaken by it, but we've also had, um we had the conference which brought a lot of international people to the city so they were still out having a good time. Um, last week we had a really busy week down at Ivy, which was nice to see people still getting out and still living their lives, which has [00:15:30] been a challenge, and some people haven't, but, um, you know, thankfully, the Wellington committee still carried on, and they ran the youth ball, which I hear was a huge success. Last Saturday, they had about 100 and 50 youth attended to Papa, which, you know, still gave them their chance to have their pride in that. So it's really cool. And the festival itself ran for over two weeks, So there were still lots of going on. We just missed out on the big the big, sparkly stuff, like out in the park. And, yeah, on a personal note, um, what impact did the [00:16:00] massacres in Christchurch have on you? Um, quite a lot. I'm from Canterbury. I lived in Christchurch for six years, so it was a real shock that that could happen to us to New Zealand. Um, it was concerning to me, um, you know, running a where we do cater to minorities, which we, unfortunately, are a target to know that if someone can do it here now that potentially others could do it in the future. So, um, it was just really sombre [00:16:30] and really distressing, I guess. Just trying to, you know, we spent the next day with the staff making contingency plans for eventualities if, if things were to happen. And it was just a very weird day to be, Yeah, creating these things, which we shouldn't have to do. So so you've actually, um, what? Up to your security and things like that. Uh, we have over the last few weeks, we've already had, uh, reasonable security. We've, um, had extra guards on on the Saturday night and the following week [00:17:00] with, uh, out in the park after party and that we increased security, um, very stringent on bad checks. And And that and just Yeah, so we'll settle down eventually. But I think at the moment, everyone just needs that, uh, to be able to feel safe. Um, and we always do the best we can. Um yeah. Killed everybody. Then I had in my head. Um, I just wanna, um, extend, uh, welcome to your [00:17:30] on this beautiful, sunny day. So we just like to like I said, extend you a warm welcome. And as protocol dictates, just, um, open up with a song and then the day can go on. So [00:18:00] [00:18:30] [00:19:00] [00:19:30] so I Hi, everyone. Welcome along to Eva Beaver and the Pride Festival. It's great to see you all here. We've got an amazing line up for you today. First of all, I would just like to read something out like you. Our thoughts and love remain with all of our Muslim, [00:20:00] their communities and the people of Christchurch. Thank you for your support and understanding since the cancellation of this year's pride and out in the park today, our LGBT TIQ plus community supporters and allies are invited to come together in love and in pride. So today you can enjoy some of the performances that [00:20:30] were scheduled for out in the park right here at Eva Beaver.

IRN: 388
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_touchstones_yellow.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004558
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089852
TITLE: Yellow - Rainbow Touchstones
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Joe
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; Joe; Mental Health Foundation; Rainbow Touchstones; depression; gender identity; health; mental health; transcript online; transgender; video online
DATE: 5 May 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Christchurch, Christchurch, Canterbury
CONTEXT: In this digital story Joe talks about growing up and dealing with depression.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I get annoyed when people say I'm coping or I'm struggling with depression. I just say I have depression. Shit happens. I was never one of the cool kids at school. I was always a tomboy and super super nerdy. I was a member of the chess club and Cliff Richard was my favourite singer. My Depression kicked in when I was 16. I had major back surgery, which put me off school for two months because I was in [00:00:30] so much physical pain, people didn't really notice the Depression. A lot of the time I would just go to bed and not want to do anything, so I'd say that my back was sore even though it wasn't going back to school was awful. A lot of people were quite rude and asked things like, Can we see your scars? It kind of made me feel like a freak. Around 17, I started having panic attacks. I step out the door to go to school and I just couldn't leave the house. I just started getting really overwhelmed with everything [00:01:00] and the more stressed or depressed I got, the more my obsessive compulsive disorder flared up. You know, when There are certain things that need to be done a certain way, and there is no option but to do it that way. Even how I got dressed in the morning, it had to be done in the same order every day. It made me feel like I was in control. Up until then, I hadn't even really thought about sexuality and gender. But from about 18, I started experimenting and came out as queer when I was 20. That same [00:01:30] year I was diagnosed with depression. When the doctor said it, I was kind of a bit shocked because he had named it. Until then, it had been a kind of undefined misery, but by naming it, it meant I had to do something about it. Initially, he put me on a green type prescription, natural antidepressants like Saint John's Ward and told me to get some more sun and exercise and see how I go. About six months later, I went back and said it wasn't working, so he put me on antidepressants and sent me to a counsellor. [00:02:00] I think I got worse. For the next couple of years, I was put on a sickness, benefit and met up with some people who weren't particularly good for me. We kind of encouraged each other's bad behaviour with most of the counselling I've been through. Sexuality and gender are what they jump on first. It just gets a bit frustrating because I don't think there are issues within me. I'm not agonising over being queer or trans, but I do find how other people treat me really hard. You know, when people constantly [00:02:30] remind you that what you are is not the norm. They think you don't feel things the same way, and that's what I get so depressed or anxious about. I was pretty much a mess in my mid twenties when I was coming out as Trans because there's so much explaining you have to do. I got quite bitter and resentful that I had to keep explaining just the way I am. It's like as soon as someone finds out that I'm different, that's automatically a reason to start asking me all the questions they've had bottled up for ages. Even when people [00:03:00] just make flippant remarks, it triggers all the bad stuff in my brain. The last six months have been better, even though my depression has been giving me a rough time. The ways I'm dealing with it are a lot healthier. I'm settling more into my gender. It's like when you first come out. You're so fiercely defensive about it. You know, I used to wander around saying, I'm gay, I'm gay, I'm gay to anyone who cared And it was like that when I first came out as Trans as well, I'm a man. I'm a man. I'm [00:03:30] a man, reinforcing it at every possible opportunity. But just in the last few months, I've come to realise that if people still see me as female, that's really not my problem. So even though my depression has been really bad, on one level, I've been a lot healthier mentally. The Depression has been there for so long that I never really expected to fully go away. I try to make sure that everything else is working well so that the Depression doesn't affect me too much. Things like watching what I eat, [00:04:00] making sure I sleep properly and not spreading myself too thinly. I think a lot of people are quite prone to offering advice, but I think deep down most people know what they need to be happy. It takes a pretty strong person to actually do it, but it's worth it. It's about being true to yourself. Sometimes I wake up and say God, being true to myself really sucks today, you know, being queer and trans. Sometimes it's quite [00:04:30] hard just being me. But I just want the person in the mirror to be a decent reflection of the person I am on the inside. Definitely. I have off days and I can't be bothered and I just wish I was normal. But my good days, which are most days, are really good, and I'm a lot happier and confident in being who I am.

IRN: 389
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_touchstones_violet.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004556
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089850
TITLE: Violet - Rainbow Touchstones
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; Auckland; Mental Health Foundation; Rainbow Touchstones; alcohol and drug abuse; depression; gay; health; mental health; transcript online; video online
DATE: 26 June 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this digital story Damian talks about growing up and dealing with depression.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: When I was nine. I remember my father saying to me, he may not be living with us much longer and I said, Why is that? And he said, Your mother and I disagree on things. She thinks that gay men are nice, and I asked, What's that? I don't understand. And he said, men who love other men. But didn't Jesus say we should love each other? I asked. No, no, not like that. Men who kiss each other and [00:00:30] I was like, Oh, and that was my introduction to homosexuality. My depression started up when I was about 11. I was ruthlessly bullied at school. There was something about me that didn't quite fit because I spoke clearly. They would come up to me and say, Are you English? And then pretty soon it turned into Are you gay? It was my first experience of people pointing the finger. [00:01:00] My mother really tried to be there for me, but there was so much stuff that I couldn't actually say to her because I felt confused and didn't know what kind of response I was going to get. When I was 12, I started having my first sexual dreams they were of me wrestling with my friends and I'd waking. I'd think, Oh, that's wrong. But it was something deep within me that I had no control over. I guess [00:01:30] my relationship to gayness had moved significantly since my father first mentioned it. I'd gone from. I can't see what's wrong with it to feeling deeply worried and anxious and ashamed about what was going on inside my head. And then in sex education class at Intermediate, the local health nurse talked about wet dreams, she said. Sometimes you might even dream about having sex with your male friends. This doesn't [00:02:00] mean you're gay. It's just a normal part of growing up. And I just remember this incredible sense of relief. Oh, I'm not gay. But those types of dreams kept happening, so I became increasingly homophobic over my high school years. I suppose it was act of repression fighting the homosexual thoughts. In my mind, I started smoking cannabis. I always felt anxious, and I found it very hard [00:02:30] to go to school. At the same time, I began to take part in workshops run by my church. A big part of those was about examining yourself and I think I was starting to see the cracks. I was sort of living two lives. There was a part of me, this sort of tear away, loose cannon Self-destructive person who was really miserable and had suicidal thoughts on a daily basis. And then there was a part of me that needed to maintain [00:03:00] an appearance of ness and sanity by being this amazingly responsible person who the church group loved and adored. So after leaving school, I held down a few jobs before going on to the unemployment benefit. And then, because of my depression, I moved on to the sickness benefit. For two years, my doctor kept signing off my benefits until one day, she said, Things need to change because you're not getting better. I [00:03:30] was 21 when I agreed with her that I needed medication to help stabilise my moods. I had stopped doing drugs and drink a couple of years before and was really anti medication. But the doctor gently convinced me into trying a very low dose of antidepressants that had a profound effect on me. Within days, my anxiety about things calmed down and I could start looking at myself again part of what the meds did was to take away [00:04:00] the bumps and dips so that I could start learning how to manage my emotions in a healthier way. I went to an out gay counsellor who gave me the opportunity to talk about what I was experiencing. The more I talked about it and acknowledged it, the more OK I felt about being me. I think ultimately my mental state was because I had been repressing myself for so long. I'd spent years beating myself up and beating parts of me into a corner. [00:04:30] It took quite some time for things to come right. I had a couple of relapses and major crashes along the way and even now there are still times I get unhappy. But I now know that I have the ability to take command of that and make it pass before it gets into more serious depression. A big part of my story is about being true to myself, developing a sense of pride and stepping beyond [00:05:00] my fears.

IRN: 282
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_touchstones_red.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004559
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089853
TITLE: Red - Rainbow Touchstones
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Stephen Denekamp
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; Auckland; Mental Health Foundation; Rainbow Touchstones; Stephen Denekamp; coming out; depression; family; gay; health; mental health; transcript online; video online
DATE: 25 April 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this digital story Stephen talks about growing up and dealing with depression.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: It was when I was alone at night in my room, I would sleep on the floor because I felt I didn't deserve to sleep in the bed. I would cry myself to sleep. I didn't want anyone else to see that side of me. I grew up in Auckland in a very Christian family. I was the oldest, the the only boy of three younger sisters. We all went to church regularly, and I guess I just absorbed those values. I remember when something gay came up on [00:00:30] TV. I'd see that negative look on Mum's face, I guess. Unconsciously, I began picking up all those messages at school. I had a group of geeky friends who were really supportive but would also join in on the gay jokes. And then at 13, it suddenly clicked. It was when I put this word gay together with these feelings I was having. The thing was, I knew exactly 100% who I was sexually at that point in time, and I didn't want to [00:01:00] be it. I guess it started out as an annoyance and then started to grow into hatred. I began to hate the fact that I was gay. If I can just push away this part of me, it'll be OK. I became really self-conscious. I was always overthinking everything. The way I was moving what I was doing. I became very good at masking what I was feeling. At the same time I was using Internet chat. I didn't know any gays and lesbians in person but online. [00:01:30] I started searching and asking questions from people who were going through the same thing. I guess I had many different lives. I was living so at around 16. It all just started spilling over. That feeling bad just got stronger and stronger. I began to withdraw. I lost interest in things music. Then food life started becoming very grey. Rather than just hating this gay part of myself. I started hating all of myself. I thought that I was evil and disgusting [00:02:00] and shouldn't be here. Negative self talk was with me constantly. I was punishing myself, but it was purely coming from inside. I hadn't been teased or bullied. This was all self inflicted. Then everything went up a notch and I started having dreams about dying and killing myself. I started self harming it was easier to have physical pain than to deal with the pain in my head. [00:02:30] Suddenly a shift in my world. One day I was talking online to a person from school. He asked the usual question. How's it going? And instead of my usual reply, I said, I'm feeling crap. And he asked, What's going on? He encouraged me to tell my close friends and to see the school guidance counsellor. But even though I was now talking to people, I was getting worse. Having hated myself for so many [00:03:00] years, the only feeling I felt was bad. I remember doing a speech at school. I picked the topic. Teenagers never had it better, but because of my state of mind, I made it. Teenagers never had it worse. I did the speech in front of my class, and during it I grabbed a pair of scissors and I cut myself. Now everything in my life was about getting me out of this place that I was in. My dad took me to a psychiatrist. [00:03:30] We talked and she gave me a book on depression, one of the most amazing books ever. I was reading about everything. I was experiencing. I began to recognise that this was the Depression and not me. I wanted to change, but it was still too much effort. It felt easier to stay hating myself and being suicidal. So I was put on antidepressants. They stopped me going lower. They stabilised me and actually lifted me up a bit so that I could try [00:04:00] and get through this. And part of that was coming out to my parents. That was the most nervous moment of my life. But it was the biggest relief. Depression does go away for me. It's taken about eight years. I started feeling better after the psychiatrist, but the negative thoughts kept coming back. Sometimes you need to ask for help. Talking about it means you're beginning to deal with it. Depression is not who [00:04:30] you are, but something you are experiencing. Talk about it and get help from someone you trust a friend or counsellor. Find out as much information as you can and realise that you can absolutely change your feelings about who you are.

IRN: 387
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_touchstones_orange.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004560
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089854
TITLE: Orange - Rainbow Touchstones
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ivan Yeo
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; Auckland; Ivan Yeo; Malaysia; Mental Health Foundation; Rainbow Touchstones; coming out; depression; gay; health; mental health; transcript online; video online
DATE: 29 March 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this digital story Ivan talks about growing up in Malaysia and dealing with depression.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My only goal was to make myself look as normal as possible. It seems to be the only answer to my life because I didn't want to embarrass my family. I grew up in Malaysia with my mom, dad and three sisters. My father always taught us to be good people not to live for yourself, but to live for others. The teaching of Confucius [00:00:30] strongly penetrates the whole of Malaysian Chinese society. You have to carry on your family name. You need to marry, have Children and then look after your parents. And because Malaysia is a Muslim country, gay is a big no. I can't recall a happy childhood. I was really skinny and fair, and a lot of people call me a girly boy. [00:01:00] I only remember being sad and scared and anxious. Once my parents brought in a Chinese priest to help stop me crying and screaming all the time. No one really knew about mental health. Either someone was crazy or they were not. According to the priest, I was being disturbed by bad spirits. I think for me it was a combination of many things [00:01:30] my unhappy family, my dad's compulsive gambling, my gayness I remember when I was about 11 reading a newspaper article that described what a homosexual was. I felt relieved. Suddenly I have a name that describe my feelings, but I also felt sad. The article was quite negative. The only example [00:02:00] I knew was that if you are gay, you are abnormal. You become a transgender and sell yourself on the street. One of the things I fear most was the rejection of love. When I was 16, I had my first gay relationship with a classmate. I wanted to share it with my family, but I couldn't. Everything had to be very secretive, [00:02:30] like when I would write him a letter. I would have to be careful about what I say. His sister actually read one of the letters and told his mom, and then I couldn't see him anymore. I remember crying a lot and feeling so much pain that I had to bang my head on the wall. I started to miss school. My chest always felt really sore, and I didn't have the energy to do anything. [00:03:00] As I got older, everyone kept asking me, Why don't you have a girlfriend? It made me feel like a freak. The lowest point was when I lock myself in my room after having a huge fight with my mom, My sister and mom started knocking on the door. Tell us what you want, anything out of my mouth, I said. I want to go overseas. [00:03:30] I had no idea of where I was going to go. I didn't have a plan, but I just wanted to get away. Leaving the country was the best thing. It gave me the freedom not to worry about how other people thought about me, but it was very sad. I missed my family. They were all I have known for the past 28 years. A lot of things change After I came to New Zealand. [00:04:00] It was the first time ever I could be myself. I started to see how society can pose their values into a person. It made me see that I am able to choose the lifestyle that I want, but it means I need to choose the right country to be in. It was also in New Zealand that I first found out about depression and anxiety. I was taking a university paper and one day [00:04:30] I saw the diagnosis of depression, and I suddenly realised that this is what I had. It was a hard moment, but at least I now knew what it was. My depression and anxiety are like old friends. They have been with me for such a long time. But now, when it gets really intense, I know I have to take care of myself by talking to people [00:05:00] and getting help. I remember someone once told me that you get better if you allow yourself to get better. You just got to hang in there. It's like the weather. Sometimes you get the good one, sometimes a bad one. Remember, it all passes.

IRN: 386
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_touchstones_green.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004557
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089851
TITLE: Green - Rainbow Touchstones
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; Mental Health Foundation; Rainbow Touchstones; bisexual; coming out; depression; health; lesbian; mental health; takatāpui; transcript online; video online
DATE: 12 June 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Paekākāriki, Paekākāriki, Kapiti Coast District
CONTEXT: In this digital story Hinemoana talks about growing up and dealing with depression.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: When I'm sick, My depressive mind can make me feel bad about anything. I'm such a weirdo. I don't belong anywhere. If I wasn't queer, I'd be closer to my family. But when I'm not sick, none of those ideas enters my mind. It's funny because I've never had a problem with my sexuality. When I was 14, I fell in love with a girl, and I just thought, Oh, I'm bisexual sweet. You know, it's never been a huge trauma for me. I had my [00:00:30] first episode of depression when I was 14. My parents had split up. Mom and me went to live in a new town where I developed a huge crush on a boy. He was my first sexual partner, but that first time wasn't consensual at all. And from there things got really dark. It was the first time I'd experienced, actually wanting to die. I remember walking through a nearby orchard and saying goodbye to things nature, plants, birds and I ended up trying to kill myself. [00:01:00] My mother found me, Uh, later she tried to pretend it didn't happen, so things just got worse for me. The answer for that kind of pain was to become unmanageable and promiscuous. I wanted to forget everything and disappear into chaos. Depression isn't something that just happens in your head. It brings very physical reactions. I get a tightness in my chest and my throat. My limbs feel like lead and even small things take heaps. [00:01:30] More energy and things that I normally take pleasure in become really difficult. The negative thoughts start up, too, and they're pretty paralysing. Trying to get out of bed against the tide of pessimism and self abuse is really hard. It wasn't until I was about 28 that I was actually diagnosed with depression. I'd gone to see a doctor about something else, and he wrote in my notes, It's not so much the overuse syndrome that I'm concerned about with this young woman. It's her depression and I was like, Oh, hell, [00:02:00] I didn't know I had that And that was the first time I had anyone name it, and I was so grateful that someone had noticed and cared about what was going on at that deep level. But it's interesting because it still didn't really click for me. I still thought that I was just not a very worthy person and that hating yourself and occasionally wanting to die and not being able to get out of bed for a week or so was actually quite normal. My next major bout of depression happened [00:02:30] about 10 years later, and it was so frightening. It was so not me. It was like being stalked by a murderer. But the murderer was myself. And every time I walked past a set of stairs, I'd imagine throwing myself down them or walking past a window. I'd imagine jumping out of it. So the doctor put me on medication, which stabilised me. The great thing about Western medicine is that it's very good at giving things names. I actually had a really big suspicion [00:03:00] of medication, you know, like you must be really mad if you have to take a pill. Um, or maybe I just didn't want to acknowledge that it was as serious as it was, But then I'm not beyond asking for help and actually being diagnosed and offered that treatment was empowering. The difficulty with depression is that it comes with its own sabotage mechanisms. So the exact things that you know are good for you. the disease tells you that you can't do them or you shouldn't do them. [00:03:30] It took me a long time Before I could answer it back. I created a really rigorous and regular routine of self-care. I have regular conversations with key people about how I'm going for me. Medication isn't enough. I'm trying to use it as a support to change my life into one that isn't so stressful and full of triggers. And the medication is just one of the tools in my toolbox. And it's a toolbox that belongs to me, you know, I know myself. And I know this condition. [00:04:00] If I have a crap day, I have to say to myself, What can I do? You know? Have I been eating well, Do I need to structure my day more? Do I need exercise or visit my doctor? Or do I need to spend time with friends? Um, I remember a friend saying to me once when I was sick, don't believe what your head is telling you. And I remember thinking that that wasn't very helpful at the time, because it was my current reality and it felt so real and convincing. But these feelings and thoughts do pass. And when they do, it all [00:04:30] seems as bizarre as it actually was. So I just need to keep telling myself that each episode of depression doesn't last forever. It will pass, and I have a whole toolbox to help me get through it.

IRN: 390
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_touchstones_blue.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004555
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089849
TITLE: Blue - Rainbow Touchstones
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Mary O'Hagan
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; Mary O'Hagan; Mental Health Foundation; Rainbow Touchstones; depression; health; lesbian; mental health; transcript online; video online
DATE: 3 August 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this digital story Mary talks about growing up and dealing with depression.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I grew up in a time when little girls were supposed to wear nice little Rosebud dresses and play with dolls. But I just couldn't fit into that stereotype. I wanted to be active and run around playing with guns. I grown into a real tomboy and began wondering if that meant I was also a lesbian. The traditional thinking in the seventies was that lesbianism might be a phase you go through. But if you remained homosexual in your adulthood, you were [00:00:30] a very screwed up person, and that really scared me. My mental health issues started cropping up. When I was 18, I started getting deeply depressed, and then after a while I started developing highs as well. I had a whole lot of stresses. I was just leaving home. My grandmother had just died and I was sorting out my sexual identity. All of these things became entwined with my mental health problems. I went [00:01:00] to my doctor and said I'd lost my appetite and that I didn't feel very good emotionally. He referred me to a psychiatrist who told me I had depression. I went to see him twice a week for about six months. I only talked about the things that were easy to talk about. I was too terrified to tell him about the struggles I was having with my sexual orientation because of the fear of being judged, I thought he would try to label my feelings as a medical condition and [00:01:30] think I had a sick personality. Over the next couple of years, I continued going to these talk sessions as well as taking antidepressants. But nothing seemed to help, and so I ended up in hospital. As soon as I crossed the threshold of the hospital, I was labelled and identified as a psychiatric patient. Once you've been in hospital, you can't escape that label. I was a mad person, and to this day Mad has [00:02:00] become a key part of my personal identity. The lowest point for me was facing the prospect of becoming a chronic psychiatric patient. Nothing seemed to be working for me. I'd been in and out of hospital for several years, and I was losing all hope for the future. Then my older brother drowned. When Sean died. It jolted me out of my self pity. I thought, Gosh, here's this man of 28 [00:02:30] his life was going along fine and then suddenly he's dead. And then I thought I might have another 50 or 60 years to live. I suddenly felt that I was the lucky one. His death really helped change my whole outlook on life. My medication was changed and I began to stabilise. I saw several other psychiatrists, but I still didn't feel like I could talk to any of them about my sexuality. At the same time, [00:03:00] my own internal attitude towards lesbianism began to change, and I began mixing with people who thought it was OK. After I left hospital, I moved to Auckland and that's when I came out as a lesbian. I'd gone through similar experiences earlier, coming out as a mad person. I guess what really helped was that the politics of lesbian feminism in the 19 eighties had exact parallels with the mad movement. They were just a template of [00:03:30] each other. Lesbians and feminists were being subjugated by men or heterosexual society, and mad people were being subjugated by the mental health system. They were both liberation movements. They reinforced each other, so I fed off each of them. In my understanding sexual identity was one of the cluster of identities I had at 18 that fed into my mood swings. Would I have got depressed if I hadn't been confused about my sexuality, Been [00:04:00] confused about my abilities, confused about the meaning of life. And I hadn't felt lonely and isolated. I don't know. I do know now there's nothing to be afraid of. You just have to be who you are. Recovery is very much tied up with your identity. Going through mental health problems shapes the whole ground of your being. I felt that coming out as a lesbian was a resolution to part of my identity. It stabilised [00:04:30] me. Another part of recovery is about accumulating good experiences. If you've had instability that goes on for years, you end up with a deficit of good feelings about life. And even though coming out as a lesbian was traumatic and confusing and mind blowing in the end, it enabled me to have some good experiences. If you start succeeding in life or you start doing the things that make you feel good, then you gather a bit of [00:05:00] momentum and that tends to continue. In the early years of my recovery, it was about building up that store of good feelings, and coming out was definitely a part of that.

IRN: 1268
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/yarn_bombing.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004551
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089845
TITLE: Yarn bombing
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Erin Kennedy; Germany; ILGA World Conference (2019); Rainbow flag; St Andrew's on the Terrace; Stitch n Butch (Wellington); Wellington; Wellington International Airport; Wellington Pride Festival (2019); activism; bike stand; church; earthquake; flowers; friends; graffiti; knitting; meditation; neighbourly. co. nz; pride; public spaces; queer; stitching; support; wind; yarn bombing
DATE: 4 March 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast we learn about yarn bombing during Wellington's Pride Festival.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Maori. We're at an undisclosed location in somewhere in Wellington. Can you tell me what we're about to do tonight? We're yarn bombing. We're yarn bombing. We're graffiti in Wellington with stitches. What is yarn bombing? Um, we find some, um, civic furniture, and we decorate it with with with wool and yarn and pretty things. At the moment, we're doing the benches on Cuba Street. That's our current focus. So how did [00:00:30] this all come about? Um Well, a couple of years ago, there was an earthquake in Wellington, um, 2. 5 years ago, and we were a little, um, stitching group a little queer stitching group. And we were all a little bit discombobulated by the earthquake. But we decided to do something for Wellington that would help us as well as brighten up everybody. And so we thought about it for a while, and we decided to, um yarn bomb. [00:01:00] The bike stands outside the city library two years ago, and some of them are still there. So is yarn bombing? Uh, kind of like an international movement. I hear it's done other places as far a field as lower hut Palmerston north to these are all places that have been touched by thread. But also I have some sisters in Germany and in Hamburg who recently showed me some photographs of yarn bombing there, too. Now, when I look at them [00:01:30] II, I kind of think of them as kind of just really beautiful ornaments, kind of yarn ornaments. How would you describe them? Ornaments is a good is a good description. It's, uh, the Sometimes people come along and ask me, What's this for? Which is a really hard question, and I think that's purely decorative. It's purely to make people smile and carry on walking. But I tell you who notices the most. Are the people shorter than 3 ft tall? They [00:02:00] are the ones who notice them heaps and heaps and heaps. Have you been, um, questioned or pulled up by anyone in authority? No. No. Anyone in authority has been extremely delighted by what we've been doing. Some people have have noticed some policemen have noticed and said, Good on you, mate. Some City Council workers have said, um uh imagine this being done for free, and so every everyone seems to be delighted. [00:02:30] And so this is people that are that are stopping you as you're actually yarn bombing? Yes, The most of the comments come when we're actually yarn bombing people. Actually, nowhere else in my life does anyone ever say I love your work so much as when we are installing our our little creations on the street. And what kind of time of day do you kind of yarn bomb, is it? Is it like, in the middle of the night? People want us [00:03:00] to be covert and think of us as doing it in balaclavas and the, um, surprise element of it arriving at the next morning. But actually, we're we're quite busy. And so we arranged to meet at a convenient time, like after work to do it. So the yarn bombing is just one aspect of it in terms of like putting it on to the public furniture. But you're also creating these things before that, aren't you? Yes. Yes. Our little group [00:03:30] is a group of it's called Stitch and Butch as our little group. And we are queer, and we meet every week. And just between you and me, the knitting and the stitching is is a secondary byproduct of what we do because we meet every week. We form really trusting friendships slowly as the weeks go by. And if we have a shared goal, that's well and good. But really, we meet because we're friends [00:04:00] and we've formed friends by by the stitching. So yes, so sometimes, um, we come along with bags of pre prepared items to go on, and sometimes we just come along to so on what other people have so and on because the point is really the friendship and the camaraderie and the support for each other. So where did Stitch and Butch come from? Well, Erin Kennedy contacted me one day about five years ago and said, Can we have a little stitching [00:04:30] group? And I said, Oh, God, if we must Oh, when? And she said Monday nights would suit me and I said, Oh, how about Wednesdays or Fridays? And she said Monday nights, And so Erin instigated this and we started off with two of us. And then the next week, eight of us turned eight turned up, and we all come for our own reasons. Some people are in, um uh, looking for company. Some people [00:05:00] are looking for calmness, and some people are looking for support while they go through something in their life. And we just quietly sit there and support each other. And it's It's just it's just about, um Well, it has an aspect of old time meditation to it because we are doing something rhythmical with our hands. But I'm also listening and hearing the stories that my friends tell about their lives, [00:05:30] too. And they very kindly listen to my stories, too. Yeah. Can you describe for me some of the, um the items that you make at the moment? We're making flowers and we're making flowers because it's Pride Week in Wellington and we're contributing to the fabulousness of the city. Um, and that's our our current, our current project. But down on the waterfront, we've got some. We've got some little monsters [00:06:00] with eyes and ears and monster feet and up at Saint Andrews on the terrace. We've got more monsters and up at Thistle Hall. We've got some monster feet. So we do all sorts, Really whatever takes our fancy And how do you pick the locations? Um, sometimes they're just convenient because we're there. Like we we meet at Saint Andrews on the terrace. So we like to decorate. The church and the church seem to be happy that we do decorate it. Thank goodness, [00:06:30] um, and we're doing at the bottom of Cuba Street because the big conference is coming shortly. And we just want to make to people to know that they were very welcome on a grand scale that the Council is doing, but also on the smaller scale that we can contribute. So we just It's a group decision and a group discussion, and we go with the consensus of the group. Yeah, now you mentioned and you also mentioned pride. And [00:07:00] at the moment throughout the city, there are rainbow flags flying on lampposts, and there's a huge, uh, rainbow painting on the on the front of the airport. Um, what do you think about those things? I feel so proud of Wellington to be able to put put the put the pride colours up without fear or fear of recrimination? I think it's exciting to be to be part of Wellington that flies the pride flag so freely [00:07:30] Well, should we go and yarn? Bob? Hey, let's put those flowers on the vines Thank you. So, Murray, we are now standing in front of one of your yarn bombs on a on a public on a public seat. Um, tell me. Describe to me what you're doing. Well, we scoped out these seats and we decided that they've got little weenie slaps. So we're a very creative group, and one of our members has made these vines out of [00:08:00] many layers of wool. And so I'm winding the vine around the slats. And once the vines are these multicoloured vines are on. I'm going to go along and sow flowers onto these vines. Yeah. And do you do this in all Weathers? Because I know I mean, you, you'll probably hear on the recording that it's actually quite a windy day today. Do you come out, like, in the winter and do this as well? Yes. We do it in winter, too. We do it in winter, too, just because we love it. We just love doing it. And I guess it's just a little breeze today, [00:08:30] isn't it? Yes, indeed. Look, the sun's shining. What is it like creating something? Um, kind of so ephemeral because I imagine in in six months the these may not be here. I imagine they're very ephemeral every time I sew something on to something in the public arena. I think this is probably won't be here in a week. I'd be lucky if it lasts the night. Really? And you know what? They're still there. Two years later, it astounds [00:09:00] me that that they are that they stay up for so long that people don't take them off immediately. And I it, um But when I walk past and see them, I feel quite proud that I've contributed to Wellington. Yeah, and sometimes I secretly stand on one side and watch people photograph them. This evening, there were two people sitting on the previous benches. Um, like that woman over there sitting on one of our benches and she stopped me and she said, Look [00:09:30] at me eating my burger on these beautiful, flowery seats and I thought, Wow, that's really cool. I'm pleased that we've contributed to the happiness of Wellington. Somebody tracked me down on Sunday, where I was working in a public in a in a in a retail place. This random woman came in and she had an accent, so I suspect she was of German ethnicity. And she came up to me and she said, I found you. I found you. I found you, and I was a little bit alarmed. [00:10:00] And she said, Do you make the knitted things? And I said yes. And she'd been asking around all the shops to see who'd been putting up the knitted things on the waterfront. And so I felt I felt like my, um that she had no, that she'd noticed and that she'd bothered to find who had put up those little monsters on the waterfront. Really delighted me. And And do you know where where she came from? Was there Was there anything like this? She said [00:10:30] she had seen a tree with a sleeve on it in Hamburg, and she she said that this was like, like the ones that she'd seen in her hometown. Yeah. So we've got trees, We've got poles, we've got seats. What? What other places do you do? You put stuff? Yes. Trees, Poles, seats. We've done all those and, um um uh, light poles on the waterfront. And we've got, um, bike [00:11:00] stands. In fact, the bike stands was quite interesting because the bike community took photos of the bike stands and then they put it on the front of the magazine, the international magazines. And they said how kind it was of Wellingtons to make it make it easy for their bikes to not be damaged. And I thought, Oh, fair enough. Fair enough. And somebody asked me for a commission. So I've been commissioned to do a bike stand down on the waterfront by one of the cafes. [00:11:30] Yes. So it's good fun. How long does it take you to to make the flowers? Um, I can make two flowers a day, as we're as we're coming up to, um, yarn bombing. So I just do a few every day and it just melts slowly. It mounts up. Yeah, yeah, it's a nice thing to do while I'm watching television. Or, um, just having a little down time. It's very calming and soothing for me. So [00:12:00] is there a particular, um, knot or how how are you tying things on? Um, each flower I've made has a little tail to it, and, um, so I thread that onto a nice, big, thick darning needle and just sew it on with lots and lots of stitches, and they seem to last for years. It's astounding. I have no no particular skills in in tying fishermen's knots, but it just seems to work. If you do enough stitches [00:12:30] and you've got a whole big bundle now of beautiful flowers, I do. I do. I I've enjoyed using the wool in creative ways. Where where does the wool and the yarn come from? Um, friends and family at first. And then I put an ad on and I was overwhelmed by bags and bags and bags and bags and bags of beautiful wool and old projects that people were happy to give me for the purpose of yarn bombing. [00:13:00] And, um um, and I've just about used all of that now, so I might have to go and find some more. But I found a bag. I got very excited in the weekend. I went to I was in the tip shop and I found a bag of colourful wool there. So every time I find a, uh uh, a little bag of treasure, I get very excited. Would you call this activism? Yes, in a it is. It is definitely activism in [00:13:30] um, in a with a very small A because it it keeps we enjoy contributing to the queerness of Wellington and whether or not people notice it or acknowledge it is beside the point because we enjoy doing it, Yeah.

IRN: 1267
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/the_glamaphones_member_interviews_2019.html
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089844
TITLE: The Glamaphones - member interviews
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Gerard Wood; Jan Suckling; Rachel Hyde; Sophia Dempsey; Steven Sue; The Glamaphones; Thomas Nikora
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Brave (song); Cantoris choir (Wellington); Cyndi Lauper; During These Days (composition); Fight Song (song); GALS (Gay and Lesbian Singers, Auckland); Gareth Farr; George Michael; Gerard Wood; Glee (tv); Hozier; Hugh Jackman; ILGA World; ILGA World Conference (2019); Jan Suckling; Michael Fowler Centre; Michael Pansters; Morten Lauridsen; New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF); Out and Loud (choral festival); Out in the Park (Wellington); OverWatch (NZ Defence Force); Pride; Pride Parade (Wellington); Rachel Hyde; Rachel Platten; Rainbow Crossing (Wellington); Rainbow flag; Rev. Jean Malcolm; Royal New Zealand Ballet; Sara Bareilles; Sophia Dempsey; St Andrew's on the Terrace; Steven Sue; Sydney; Sydney Mardi Gras; Take Me to Church (song); The Glamaphones; The Greatest Showman (film); The Pretenders (band); This is Me (song); Thomas Nikora; Topp Twins; True Colours (song); Wellington; Wellington International Airport; Wellington Pride Festival (2019); children; choirs; community; community choir; concerts; diversity; facebook. com; flags; fun; music; musical repertoire; musicals; piano; pride; singing; social media; support; theatre; whānau
DATE: 28 February 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: St Andrew's on the Terrace, 30 The Terrace, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast members of the Glamaphones talk about being a part of a rainbow choir and their two upcoming concerts during Wellington's Pride Festival in March 2019.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi, My name is Rachel Hyde. I'm the music director of the glamour phones, and tonight we are rehearsing at Saint Andrew's Church on the terrace, three weeks out from our big concert as part of the Pride events in Wellington and then a huge concert for us at the Michael Fowler Centre. Can you describe, firstly, the big concert and then the huge concert? Yeah, the big concert is really exciting for us. It's here at our home of ST Andrews. It's a best of the glamour phones. I've been working with the iPhones for four years now, and this is a really awesome opportunity [00:00:30] for me to show everybody what I have done with the choir and what the choir has done with me. Actually, we've kind of grown together, and so we've picked all of our favourite songs from those four years, and we're going to deliver them as part of these pride events, just as a celebration of who we are and our place in the community. And it's really exciting, really cheap tickets so people can just come along and enjoy a night with us. Can you describe some of the repertoire? Yeah, we're doing a range of amazing pieces. So the centre of the concert for us is a piece we commissioned from Gareth Farr called [00:01:00] During these days. We commissioned this piece for the 30th anniversary of the passage of the homosexual Law reform in New Zealand. It was an extraordinary series of events we did, and we're really pleased to be able to sing that piece again. And then around that we've got some you could probably call a classic queer gay anthems, Um, both modern and older. We're doing an amazing song called The Fight Song, which the choir loves. We're doing songs like, Um, Stand By You by the Pretenders. [00:01:30] We're doing some George Michael Freedom 90 a whole bunch of songs that people will love, and it's going to be a really fantastic night. And then what about the huge concert? This is a huge concert. I can't quite believe we're doing this, but it's true the glamour phones are opening for the top twins who ever thought that would happen? This is the final night of the massive LGA conference that's taking place in Wellington. 400 delegates or more from all around the world are coming to Wellington to talk about issues that affect our community [00:02:00] around the world. And on the final night there is a concert at the Michael Fowler Centre. The top twins are the headliners, which is super exciting, and we're going to sing, and we will be singing a few of the songs from the night before. I'm not going to give away. It's going to be a surprise, but we'll be doing 20 minutes to half an hour, and I just can't wait. It's such a great night for the choir. And will this be one of your biggest audiences? I mean, Michael Fallas is huge. It will definitely be the biggest one if we pack it out. So come along and help us sing to our biggest ever audience. It's an amazing place, a great acoustic. [00:02:30] I've never sung in there. I've conducted in there before but never sung. So it's a first for me, and the choir is so excited not just because it's the tops, but because it's at the MFC as well. Now you've been with the choir for, say, four years. How has the choir changed you? Well, that's an amazing question. Um, I would say the choir has taught me a lot about myself and my my place in the community. Actually, in the queer community, um, I feel really happy and proud of who I am and I always have done. But the choir has given me a voice [00:03:00] in a way that I don't think I have before. Um, I think the choir has made me a lot more fun as well. Let me just lay that out there. I can be quite a serious person, but the choir has taught me some jokes that I never thought I'd know. And they've just really taught me to embrace the people around me and be proud of our community and and just stand up and be counted, and that's something I'll always be grateful for. So so after these two concerts, you're actually taking a little break for a while. Yeah, I am. I'm having a mini sabbatical. It's only six months, but, um, this is a [00:03:30] pretty full on job, and I do it in addition to actually having a full time job as well and working with other groups. Um, and what I decided to do was have six months where I wasn't waving my arms about, but I was actually thinking about my own music. So I'm going to spend six months playing the piano. I'm gonna get my cello out for the first. I'm in 15 years. I've just built a house and we've got a record player that actually plays records. And so we've got all of our records and I'm going to listen to them and re attach myself to my music inside myself. And then [00:04:00] that will allow me to come back to the choir at the end of the year with with with a bit of learning about myself and my music music, I think. And yeah, just just do something a little bit different for a few months. And so who's taking over the choir is really lucky. We've managed to get a young man called Thomas Nico to come along and conduct the choir. He's an amazing young musician, and he's going to have a great time with the choir. I know they've asked him to do some classical music as well as some other more standard glamour phones repertoire, [00:04:30] Um, and he'll be brilliant at that. He actually conducts a choir called Canto choir at the moment, who I also used to conduct many years ago. It's a small community, and Thomas has been working with us for a few weeks playing the piano, and now he's singing with us, getting to know the choir and getting ready to take on the the really the great honour and privilege of working with this group of people. Just looking forward to the two concerts in March. What is the piece that you're most looking forward to performing? That's an easy question, actually. It's a song [00:05:00] called This Is Me, which is from a movie called The Greatest Showman, which I have seen. It's a good movie. It's not my favourite movie ever. It stars Hugh Jackman, who is one of my favourites, but this song seems to have taken on an incredible life of its own. Um, on the news Just yesterday, apparently, Hugh Jackman turned up at a U in Auckland. Nobody knew about it, and the kids all sang. This is me for him, and he sang with them, and it brought him to tears. We sang this piece last year with a group of Children from a local school and some of the Children of our choir [00:05:30] members, and we're really hoping that they can join us again. It's an incredible experience to sing with this choir and Children. I will never forget that experience, and we're going to do it again. And just the song speaks to people, and it's a song. It's a statement about standing up and not allowing oppression to rule your life and not allowing bullies to take over and just saying This is who I am and it's an amazing song now. Rachel, your mom is here. Yes, she just [00:06:00] got off a plane from France. She's for her visit. Staying with me for a couple of months and the glamour phones is one of her favourite things in the world. So, needless to say, rather than going home, she came to rehearsal. It's the only reason I come really for the glamour phones. They're all my pals, and they stay in contact over Facebook and things like that and messengers. And so I love them. I I've adopted the whole lot. What's it like to see Rachel leading this choir? I'm so proud of her. She is the best female conductor that I have ever heard [00:06:30] which is and I'm I'm only biassed, but she is so that's you know, so I can't be prouder of it. I'll be My only thing is I think she should be wearing more rainbow wearing blue. I'm trying to give her a hint of the shocking pink. That's why it's great to have the choir loves my mom. My mom loves the choir, so it's a real We're a real That's right. Can I go and have a really, really strong coffee? Now, I I'll talk to you next [00:07:00] time and you'll just have to bend down or something, because you're much too tall. OK, thank you. Thanks. You Right, everybody, let's come together, please. I can see new people. Hello. Who are you? You're Sarah. Let's welcome Sarah to the alto. And I see new people over here as well. [00:07:30] Leanne and Joe. Great. Could we start with our shoulders, please? So some nice, relaxed shoulder arms backwards in your own time. You know how this goes? Very good. And my mum is back. Yeah, just noting that my mum gets the biggest cheer of the night. Uh, fingers behind your backs and just give yourselves a bit of a stretch [00:08:00] and the same forward. Very nice. And can you just as you give your face a massage, can you make some random interesting noises? Oh, very good. And can you give me a nice low? [00:08:30] Lovely. Uh, OK, let's do Let's do a great big lion breath. So a nice deep breath in and one more be more impressive. There's, like 60 of us in your own time. Very good. And just do me a nice big yawn. [00:09:00] Very good. Who wants to pick a nursery rhyme for me this week? Jack and Jill. Can you sing that for me? Jack and Jill went up the hill. Jack fell and broke his crown and came tumbling after once more please from the middle of the choir and went up to [00:09:30] let go. What did that start? Let's go up a tone 34 and went up the hill and [00:10:00] I could very good. That's enough of Jack. And before we start with a rehearsal rehearsal, I'd like us to fight song for a final bit of warm up, please. Fight song. This is my [00:10:30] Oh, [00:11:00] mhm! All right, sit down. Thank you, everyone. So the reason I chose that song to kick us off is that there's a lesson in how we have to start our upcoming performances. It's always hard to to start a performance. There's that weird bit where you come on and it takes us, you know, the first song or two to really get going. I don't ever [00:11:30] want us to be like that again. I always want us to start our performances with a maximum impact and then finish them with a maximum impact. But starting with impact is hard, which is why it's good to start with the wire because it really gets our souls engaged, all right, but it also accounts for the song, and that's a song that we should be able to deliver with impact. We know it. We know it relatively well. I always want you to think about how you start a performance and how you start a rehearsal. Give it your commitment from the beginning. That was not our most committed performance. It [00:12:00] was a bit Thursday evening. I our concerts on a Thursday evening at this time, roughly so you have to get rid of that. Thursday evening, I feeling in three weeks time and just deliver it straight away. It's a cracking song anyway. So, Freedom 90 let's start in the middle and get us singing with a bit that we're comfortable with, and then we'll work backwards from there. So could we go into the middle of the song, please? Well, it looks like the road to heaven, but it feels like the road to hell. [00:12:30] Hi. I'm Steven. Um, I'm the chair of the Glam Phones Committee. I've been doing this for about three years now. I've been singing with the choir for about five years. Yeah, And how did you get involved? Well, through friends, it's a community group. And, um, I know the choir has been going for nearly maybe 10 years now, and you just hear them? I heard them playing, um, out in the park, um, years ago, and I thought, Oh, maybe that's something I want to do. I haven't, um I hadn't sung for years [00:13:00] since secondary school. So it's been, you know, 15, 20 years and I got back into it, and I've been doing it since every Thursday. And what what do you get out of it? Oh, it's, uh it's um, about the community. You make friends here, um, and the support you get, Uh, but also being part of a community to, um, do something for the community to represent, um, the community and, um, perform for the community. Um, singing itself is great fun. Um, and [00:13:30] I. I often come to rehearsals on Thursdays, and it's, you know, I'm tired after a day's work, but at the end of the two hour rehearsal, I feel great. I, you know, rejuvenated. So yeah, it's it's it's a It's both a, uh uh, emotional support, but also a physical thing. It's like exercise coming here every every week. So what makes a queer choir? Is it the repertoire? Is it the people singing What makes a queer choir? [00:14:00] Well, I guess for us it's a combination of it all. It's, um, the people a queer, but, um, and we try to do queer music by queer composers and musicians. But, you know, not all of our music is like that, but it's also the way we deliver the music and what it means to us when we sing. So it's it's a combination of all that. It strikes me that It's quite AAA diverse group of people that come to the choir. Can you talk about that? Diversity? Yeah. [00:14:30] I mean, I think one thing that, um, I've seen over the last five or six years is that, um the composition of the choir has changed quite a bit. It was, um, at the start, quite a stable, um, close knit group. But over time, and our numbers have stayed, um, more or less the same, if not, um, having grown to about Fif over 50 members now. But we've got far more newer people coming in, um, far more younger people and people who are much more diverse [00:15:00] in the identity, I guess, um, participating in the choir, and I don't know what what it is. Um, uh, you know, singing is not that cool. It never it hasn't. You know, we don't have glee on TV anymore, but I think it might be to do with, um, our growing, um, part that we are playing in the community and being a place for people to, um participate and belong. So, yeah, that That's one interesting thing that I've seen over the last few years. So when you're [00:15:30] up on stage singing in a in a mass group of people. Uh, what is that feeling? Like? It's, I guess it's the feeling of unity, of being playing your part in in a bigger and a bigger thing. Um, and and you're looking out into the into the crowd. Um, you know, they are there to see you and be part of this. It's It's Yeah, fantastic. Now, there's been some, uh, disunity and and kind of fracturing in the queer communities [00:16:00] over the last year. Uh, especially, um, you know, I'm thinking of things like, um, the police and the pride parade. Um, also kind of corporate sponsorship, et cetera, et cetera. But it strikes me from the outside is that choirs are very unifying. And I'm wondering, can you talk about how our choirs and in particular the glamour phones, um, unify people? Yeah, I guess. Um, we are, um, first of all about the music. So the music is what brings [00:16:30] us together. Um, but you know, there is difference. Um, within the within the choir. And one thing that we've been emphasising more over the last few years is, um is that we are here for the community. We are a centre for the community. So, um, we we have to be open. The other thing is, you know, the choir started off as a a gay men's choir, and it opened up to women as well. But over time, um, it's it's become [00:17:00] policy that we just don't ask anyone. You know what what they're about, Like there's a reason why they want to come sing with us. And, you know, we've all been there like we've all been in situations where you don't you're not that comfortable talking about it, and that's fine. So I think being that strong basis of, uh, being inclusive and, um, being about each, um, being here for each other and about the music really binds us. We we have our differences, you know, we we But we have robust conversations, and and but at the end of the day, we're all here for [00:17:30] for the singing. Yeah, And speaking of singing, What's your favourite? What's your favourite song that you sing? Oh, that's a hard one. I think one of the my favourite songs has always been true colours. It's it's, you know, but done by an amazing amazing singer in the first place. Um, but it's actually really, really hard to sing. Um, well, and we've tried several times. Um, but also it's It's one of these compositions [00:18:00] where there's that balance of the the really sort of sentimental element. But then the real sort of release, Um, and for the 10 a part, it's also really high. So at the end of it, um, you're kind of high on on oxygen deprivation, really so. But it's it's great fun to say. And what's it like coming off stage after the performance? What What's that feeling like? Oh, it's always a bit weird for me because I have to address the the audience at the end. So, um, talking to them and, [00:18:30] um but but it's a weird feeling because the hour that you're on stage feels like five minutes. Um, but typically, one thing that we do, um, is a choirs. We always put on, um, refreshments and like supper afterwards. So it's not the end. Uh, when we get off stage, we've got another half hour hour to talk to our friends in our community, so yeah, it's it's like we've done something for them and now it's time to to enjoy each other's company. So I am a freshly graduated student. [00:19:00] Uh, I got involved in the choir in my second year of uni. My mom was doing singing lessons. I was jealous of her. Um, and she liked group singing. So we both came here because my mother is the most supportive person on the entire planet. Um And then when she stopped doing singing lessons, she kept paying for my admission to the choir. So I got to keep coming for three years now. I think this is my third year at the choir. So can you remember back to those first times you came and what that [00:19:30] feeling was like it was a touch overwhelming. Um, I don't read music. I did some like theatre in high school, but I very quickly jumped to like, backstage stuff because I found that really interesting. So actually, doing performance things again was really quite terrifying. And then I joined about a month and a half before a concert and then performed in the concert because, you know, fear is for losers. Um, but it was great. [00:20:00] The the whole choir is really just welcoming. And if you don't read music, if you don't know what you're doing, they arrange like sectionals on weekends so that you can practise your parts with people who actually do read music and know what it's supposed to sound like and everyone's willing to help out. Yeah, so So what is it like, uh, learning if if you're not actually reading the music because I mean, some of the stuff you're singing is actually really complex. Yeah, um, it's a lot of listening to the people who are around you so, [00:20:30] like, because the choir is split into actual sections, so sopranos on one side is on the other tenors front. Middle bass is at the back you need if you're not confident in the song or if you're not confident in reading music, it helps to be middle front of the group that you're in, because that way, everyone that you're hearing is singing your part and that way, so soon as you're matching everyone that you can hear, then you've got it. If you're sitting on like the borderline of two parts, then you'll start to kind of wobble, and that doesn't [00:21:00] help much. So can you recall what it was like, Um, having that performance a month after you joined. What was it like being on stage? Really amazing. Um, I hadn't really been involved much with the community in Wellington. Uh, I moved to Wellington part way through high school. And so once I kind of aged out of youth groups, I didn't really have a connection anymore. And so it was the first time that I'd seen like, I guess, the LGBT community beyond my [00:21:30] age group all gathered for a thing which was incredible, like I hadn't ever experienced that before. It seems to be quite a diverse group. And I. I wonder what What's the kind of the unifying things that bring people together with the choir? Um, I think music is definitely part of it. I think everyone at the choir does like music. Maybe they aren't necessarily as passionate about certain aspects of it as everyone else. Maybe everyone has different genres that they adore that kind of thing. [00:22:00] But everyone enjoys singing. Everyone enjoys part of the performance or just the community aspect of everyone getting together on a Thursday evening and singing the same kind of thing and just knowing that there are people in the room who understand where you're coming from and how you think about things. So describe, um, some of your most kind of favourite songs that you're singing. Um, I really love brave. It's one of my favourite songs, and there's a bunch of songs where everyone gets [00:22:30] involved. We've had songs where we've had, um, like kids from a school as part of the performance and their parents have come along, And it's really great to be able to have songs that, like, broaden the community beyond, just like what you expect when you think of a like LGBT Q choir. What would you say to somebody that, um, was a singer but had never been in a choir before and maybe didn't have the confidence to kind of approach a choir? The great thing about being in a choir is that if you [00:23:00] suck a little bit or a lot of bit, it's really hard for anyone who isn't new to notice. Like so long as you're following along well enough, and so long as you feel like you can keep following along, then you'll just get better. I can't read music I can barely hear Tune, I guess 90% of my way through songs and they haven't kicked me out yet, so I think you're good. Hi, I'm Gerard and I sing in the choir in the tennis section, but we all have extra jobs and [00:23:30] miners to arrange the ticket sales. And what are you selling tickets for? So it's for the glamour phones concert, uh, in association with the Pride Week in Wellington. It's going to be on Thursday, the 21st of March from 7 p. m. at Saint Andrews on the terrace. And this time we're going to be singing our greatest hits from 2015 to 2018. Lots of the old favourites what drew you to the choir? Um, I've always loved to sing, and for ages, I had very busy work and [00:24:00] and couldn't commit to things. But once that changed, um, someone said you should go along to the to the glamour phones, and I turned up and was felt very welcome from day one, and I really enjoyed, uh, working with the choir over the last five years. Can you describe that first encounter with the glamour phones. What it was like Well, yeah, um, the the good thing about it, um, on the singing side is that community choir and I I don't read music. I mean, I follow music, but I don't read music. And that's not an impediment, because there's lots of music readers, [00:24:30] and we have technology to support us in learning our roles. Um, on the gay side, uh, very welcoming and safe place. Lots of, um, lots of great people, uh, from around the city, all sorts of different jobs they come from, and they all bring a unique experiences and and expertise to help with, uh, running the choir. And and they all enjoy singing. What makes a rainbow choir? So a desire to, um, to to be with, [00:25:00] um, fellow community members. And, uh, particularly, uh uh, great. When you see lots of young people coming along, we have quite a few university students, Um, who who are here in Wellington. And we we form part of their extended community. And for many, we form part of the, uh, their actual family. Is they? They can be isolated due to distance and and and first time away from home for many of them, uh, or international, um, visitors [00:25:30] who who perhaps even have sung in their own, um, gay choirs back home and, uh, are joining us to, uh, continue with what they get out of a, uh, of a community choir like ours. And what do you get out of it? Well, as I said, I, I really enjoy, enjoy. And, um, it's a real, um you know, it's a punctuation to the week, Thursday night rehearsal, a couple of concerts a year and, um uh, just really nice to to to to have a good singing and and to [00:26:00] be part of something creative to to listen to the music, um, improving as we learn it and practise it and refine it. And, uh, some of the pieces are just absolutely beautiful when the choir sings them. And and so I have an emotional attachment to the music then and and And that's the joy I get out of it. What's, uh what? What? What's your favourite song that you sing? Oh, I don't think I I have one. There's only 11 or two in each repertoire, which are particularly fun. Um, we we're singing um, Hozier [00:26:30] take me to the church, and and and and that's, uh, that's the one that the tenors can get to belt out. So we all quite like that one. And and And there are others. Um, we sing some of the classical pieces on occasion. I remember once, uh uh, a couple of years ago when my mother died. Um, about the time of the concert, In fact. So, um, I I was back for the concert, but they sort of, um, dedicated to one of the rehearsals and sang a for my mum. She would have loved it, and, uh, I was able to record it and [00:27:00] play it for the family, and they thought it was lovely. So yeah. So the concert at Saint Andrews. Um, how is that going to be decorated? Well, we have a, uh, a limited budget this time. Um, so when we have AAA concert with a special aim, we often go, uh, uh, go out and seek sponsorship for, uh, stage management, et cetera. But this time we we have a We have a rainbow flag which is synonymous with our community. Uh, it's seven metres by three metres. [00:27:30] and we're going to be suspending that above the altar at Saint Andrews. Uh, who are very graciously. Um, uh, you know, consider as part of their family as well. And they want that up for a period before our concert, which is, uh, over the period of pride because they're intending to hold some, um, community, uh, services here for the, uh, for the community. And, um, it'll be really nice to to brighten up the church and and give it special meaning for Saint Andrews who have been very inclusive for such a long time here in Wellington. [00:28:00] Now, today, I don't know if you saw, but, um, the international airport here in Wellington the embankment at the front has got this huge, big painted rainbow. Have you seen that? No. I. I saw a thing on, uh, social media where they were were starting at, um, I remember being in Sydney a couple of years ago when, um, at the top of Oxford Street, they painted the pedestrian crossing for the first time in rainbow colours. Um, I. I was a member of the New Zealand defence Force, and, uh, at the time and I I had the [00:28:30] the honour of marching with the Australian defence Force the first time they wore uniform in the in the Sydney Pride parade. So, uh, we we have a connection through our defence force. Uh uh, network called Overwatch. And, uh, some of the representatives from the New Zealand Overwatch went over and and marched in the parade with the Australian, uh, defence support network. I'm not sure with the, um, embankment at the airport, if you can march on that. But you could certainly slide down it. Well, that's right. I think, uh, there's [00:29:00] also a pedestrian crossing in in Cuba Street going up. And I'm anticipating that there will be a few, um, uh, a few, uh, rainbow flags around the town. And I think with the defence force marching in the Wellington parade, um, there may well be an opportunity to perhaps, uh, um, throw a few, uh, uh, rainbow flags around a few armoured vehicles or something. I'm Jen and I live in Wellington, and I used to live in Auckland. So how did I get involved in the choir? Well, um, [00:29:30] I sang in gals, which was the choir in Auckland for 10 years and then moved down to Wellington for work. And at that stage, they were, um it was a male only choir, and, um, but they were looking to in to embrace women, and I came along at the right time, So I've been since I've been in the choir since then. And what draws you to choirs? I felt like I was coming home. Uh, so it's a family [00:30:00] community thing. Yeah. Can you describe what it's like singing just in amassed, uh, group of people? Well, you get the right song because it doesn't happen for every song. But you get the right song, and, um, it chokes you up can choke you up like I'm getting choked up now, and, um and then and then making a beautiful sound is is also fantastic. And, um and I really enjoy that. [00:30:30] I mean, there's lots of research out there about the benefits of singing, and, um, and how it increases your endorphins and positive emotions and stuff like that. But I don't come for that. Uh, although having said that, um, I can, you know, think Oh, can I be bothered going to quiet tonight and, you know, and then I'll come and it'll be it'll be a bus. It's worth it. What's the piece of music that just really gets you? What's the most kind of moving thing that you sing? [00:31:00] Well, there's heaps. But the one that I like at the moment is is, um um a a place by Morton Larrison. Um, on on the sacred night It's not quite the right title, but, you know, and it's he's He's a contemporary, uh, American composer, and I've sung his songs before with girls and and and it's just beautiful harmonies. [00:31:30] Can you, uh, describe for me some of the most kind of memorable concerts that you have been part of? Yes. Um, So periodically, the Australasian gay and lesbian choirs get together. It's called out and loud. And, um so I've sung in those Australasian out and loud choral festivals in Melbourne and, um, at the Gay Games in Sydney and two in whenever it was and, um [00:32:00] and also in Auckland. So those are the memorable times when you get, you know, 200 voices, um, lifting to the heavens. What would you say to somebody that that was a singer, but maybe has never been in a choir before and in particular. I've never been in a rainbow choir before. How would you? How would you sell glamour phones? It's the community that you come to. So, um, everyone's [00:32:30] extremely friendly. Um, Rachel is fantastic as a musical director, and, um, and we sing a great variety of different songs, and it's it's just exciting and fun. So, um, I'm Thomas, and I'm gonna be the interregnum sort of version of the conductor from March till I think it's October IG Square. And what does the conductor do with the choir? [00:33:00] Um, so it's actually I think the role is really musical director. Um, so it's not just waving your arms around and dancing in front of everyone making a fool, but it's also teaching the music and teaching how I want it performed. Yeah, different versions of music. Every kid does a slightly differently. And so you're about to step into this role, Um, for for a period of what, eight months? Yeah. Uh, that's a reasonable about time. March to October. So And once you're in the role, [00:33:30] how how do you want to kind of, um, shape the choir? Yeah. Um, so the choir does does quite a lot of pop songs at the moment, um, songs that reflect and such. Um, I'm gonna be doing one. I haven't announced it yet, So I'm gonna be doing one other piece with the choir that's more classical. Just because it's what I come from my my normal field. Um, background. So I'm gonna do one thing. I'm probably gonna do a whole lot of musical theatre stuff, but I'm not. I'm not gonna change so much. It's It's the [00:34:00] choir, as great as it is. And you were saying you came from a musical background. So So So what is your background? Um, so I studied classical performance at Victoria University. Um, I graduated 2. 5 years ago. Now, almost three years ago. And, um, last year I was repetitive for the Royal New Zealand Ballet. Um, I don't do too much playing more. Most of my playing is concertos with orchestras or or chamber music, but yeah, every now and then I do a recital or two. [00:34:30] And what drew you to the game of Thrones? Uh, actually, it's interesting. In my first year of uni, I think it was my first year anyway, um, I first or second year I met, um, their accompanist at the time, Michael. And he, um he got me involved with them for just a little bit of time. And Jean Malcolm was conducting. And I think the choir, some of them still know me. Um, and their conductor, Rachel Hyde, works a lot with well to chamber orchestra, and she'd seen me play with them. Um, [00:35:00] so I think it was It was her idea to get me along to come and take over for these couple of months. What makes a good choral singer? Lots of things. It's, um, crossings. It's chamber music. Singing in in in any sense, without a group is chamber music. So listening to people singing in tune, that's that's that can be less important than you think sometimes. [00:35:30] But, you know, text having fun, Um, I mean I. I see no point in having choir unless it's fun. But also, the text is the most important thing to me as a director at least can can you describe what it's like to be part of a mass group of people singing? Ah, well, it's a different flavour. and I think, But I, I really love it. It's It sort of gives you a bit of I. I don't wanna say courage, but it's sort of it's sort of epic. You sort of feel, [00:36:00] especially when the choir this big, this choir has got a reasonable amount of people, so that feels everything's sort of big, which is fun. One of the things from the outside that in my perception, is that it's a very, uh, unifying, uh, activity being in a in a choir, especially like a community choir. And I wonder, with so much kind of fracturing going on in the kind of queer communities at the moment, can you speak to, um, I guess how choirs can unify and [00:36:30] why they unify. I mean, choirs bring all sorts of different people together, which is a good thing. I mean, you have you have people here that otherwise wouldn't sing in groups just because they they want to be part of a group that's that's queer or queer friendly. Um, and then we've got people who love singing and they go to choirs every night of the week, and there's a few of those people at the choir. Uh, so it's you get, You do get a lot of different things coming together, different groups [00:37:00] in the square, especially more than I mean, I'm involved in a lot of choirs in Wellington, more than a lot of other choirs, the differences in people, which is really nice. Actually. It's part of what makes it really fun. And so why do you do it? I mean, I, um well, I really enjoy it pretty much. I mean, I was I was playing for the last four weeks just because they their account was in China. But I decided that I was going to stay on and sing because it's fun. But I'm not doing anything else Thursday night. So yeah, [00:37:30] and what would you say to somebody who loves singing but maybe doesn't have the confidence of of joining a choir if if if they're thinking of coming to this choir, I definitely tell them to come here because it's It's the sort of choir that it's It's very easy to fit in somewhere, and you don't you don't have to read. You don't have to be the quickest learner or anything. It's it's fun.

IRN: 1266
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/summer_camps.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004549
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089843
TITLE: Summer Camps
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alayne Dick; Annica Lewis; Bethany Grace Miller; Courtney Rose Brown; Jadwiga Green; Sabrina Martin
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 2010s; Alayne Dick; Annica Lewis; Bethany Grace Miller; Christchurch; Courtney Rose Brown; Dunedin; Fringe Festival (Wellington); Hilary Halba; Island Bay; Jadwiga Green; Kamp That Way Collective; Lesbian Summer Camp; Poland; Sabrina Martin; Stuart Young; Summer Camps (theatre); Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); University of Otago; Wellington; Wellington Pride Festival (2019); acting; activism; bisexual; blogs; bridges; chant; children; circus; cis; collective; dancing; division; dumpster diving; dyke; elders; empowerment; feelings; gold star lesbian; hair plaiting; herstory; hidden history; history; inclusion; inclusive language; inclusive space; intergenerational; intersectionality; intersex; interviewing; kamp; language; lesbian; lesbian circus; lesbian parents; lesbian politics; lesbian separatism; minority; music; naked pyramid; non-binary; oral history; politics; privilege; queer; rainbow camp; representation; safe space; sexuality; solidarity; struggle; summer camp; swimming; theatre; trans; travel; vegetarianism; verbatim theatre; vlog; women; women only spaces; women's dance; working class; writing
DATE: 17 February 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Island Bay, Island Bay, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast the cast and creative team behind Summer Camps talk about the production and its origins. The show runs during the Fringe Festival and Pride Festival in Wellington from 14-16 and 21-23 March 2019.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Summer camps is a verbatim show that is about secretly being summer camps that were held outside of Christchurch and Wellington in the late seventies and early eighties, set up by a collective of women, Um, who were quite a few of them actually living together across, um, a couple of houses in Christchurch. And they had been spurred on by, um, women travelling from [00:00:30] the States and Britain, I believe. Is that right, Jess? Um, that had, um, had attended sort of similar types of, uh of things. And there was just a lot of kind of, um, political, um uh, activism and things happening at the time, Um, very conscious kind of groups forming and doing a lot of work for women. Um, for [00:01:00] lesbian women for, um, like gay people generally. And, um, also for Children as well. Like, there's a really incredible kind of amount of work that a lot of these women were involved in. Um, their lives were kind of, um pretty hectic and, um busy. And, um, a lot of stuff was hard, um, that they were dealing with day to day. And so the idea of having a summer camp, um, as [00:01:30] a place to go as a bit of a refuge was very appealing and somewhere that they could celebrate their themselves and their sexuality and explore some of that as well. Um, together. And, um, in a space where they didn't have to explain who they were or hide who they were, Um, for a week. Um What? Um what what? Like [00:02:00] what, uh, made you interested in and kind of spurred you on to want to be part of this project? I'm Courtney. I'm one of the actors and I'm co pub doing publicity. Um, this has been Jess's baby for a while, and I heard about it last year, and I guess just hearing just talk about it was really exciting. Um, because I don't know [00:02:30] too much about queer history or, um, really, um, just a little bit here and there. And I haven't looked too much myself. Um, so it's exciting to be thrown into a project that has been going on for a few years. Um, and, um, not having to lead her, which was quite nice. Um, and, um, to see the the work and dedication [00:03:00] that Jess and Sabrina and Elaine and her Dasa have done both the interviews, Um, and creating Mass. Um, and it's just really I really I'm a real fan of Verbatim Theatre. Um, because, ah, it's just the insight you get because it's their truth in that moment, even though they're retelling stories, and they may want to paint themselves [00:03:30] in a certain light and they may skirt over some stuff. Um, it's it's better than what you will get than us imagining what it was like. Um, and so it's really good having that insight and part of the show. We've got a little bit of recording of what it's like now to be young and queer. Um, and it's really nice because it's, um, like a taste of a conversation between the older lesbians and [00:04:00] sort of our viewpoints. Um, and just it's really nice to see the change. Um, like 40 years or so, Um, just how much has changed. There's hangovers of some things, but just these women fighting so hard to have any space. And now there's almost we talk about how there's, like, freedom to almost sit on the fence for a lot of debates [00:04:30] because, um, they've done a lot of the groundwork, and we're sort of spreading out. So, um, what we can do for, like, non-binary and trans and intersex and a lot broader than what they were thinking about, because there wasn't even, like space for lesbians. But now we're working towards having spaces for everyone. Um, and so it's It's really interesting and really like a real Joel to have that the interviews because there's [00:05:00] a lot of stuff I didn't know. Um, it's quite funny. And it's nice because you hear not only just parts of history, but also just their personal experiences and relationships and leaving like husbands and Children and just that struggle and how our struggles are different now. Yeah, I think that's it. Um, what drew you to this project? Daan? Um, [00:05:30] I'm Elaine, and I'm an actor for the show and doing a bit of publicity. Um, what drew me to the project? Well, I have been watching Jess want to do this show for ages, and I've heard about it for a very long time. And I remember well, because I was there when she first found out about the camps. And we did scene which was another documentary theatre queer piece. Um, and so it's been It's been a long time coming, [00:06:00] and it sounds of a part of New Zealand history that I just really wanted to know about and I think is very interesting. So the idea of actually getting to learn about it and for real having actual interviews and it's not just a hypothetical now, like being able to do whatever I can to help it get it to the stage, is what drew me to the project. Um, Bethany, Uh, so in the summer camps back then, there was a lot of hair plating. There's a lot of [00:06:30] chanting. There's a lot of, uh, vegetarian cooking. If you were to make a summer camp for today, what kind of activities would you have on your summer camp? Wow, Elaine, that is such a great question. Uh, I'm Bethany, and I am the producer. I Firstly, I just want to say that it is an absolute privilege to be part of this. Uh, I was so I wasn't [00:07:00] sure if I had any capacity to be part of another show. Um, and then I had this wonderful Skype with Jess, and I was quite sort of giddy with the warmth and excitement about how special this part of history was that we need to know about and how special this project is. That talks about it. And I thought, Gosh, [00:07:30] I have to be part of this. I have to be part of this. Also, the collective just sounded like such a beautiful space to be part of as well, this, um, collective that we've created called Camp that way. And I wanted to, I guess, partake in that and contribute to that, um, into this beautiful kind of empowering and super supportive space. Uh, And to answer your question, Elaine, if I was to [00:08:00] create my own summer camp in today's, uh, time I there would have to be a lot of music. Everyone would have to bring an instrument or a makeshift instrument. And if not, they would have to create the instrument when getting there. And there would be a lot of, like, instrument creating sessions and then music making sessions. Um, there's there'd be a some recording [00:08:30] set up so that people can record music or vlogs. No blogs or vlogs. We could do some vlogs, actually, uh, and just talk about, you know, a chicken talk about how they're going. Um, I've never been to any of the rainbow. I don't know if anyone's heard about that, but this these camps or something up north that were had the sort of hippie vibes, and they sound amazing in many ways. And I guess [00:09:00] you know, just nice vibes like that. Everyone being just super supportive of each other. If anyone's having a rough time, people just surrounding that person and bringing them up Uh, I think what else is great in a camp? Yeah, he planting sounds cool. Um, lots of swimming, lots of swimming and art. And oh, and lots and lots of dancing. But not like, [00:09:30] you know, freestyle dancing. But also just like old fashioned dancing as well. Like, you know, like Art Deco Lindy hop. That would be great. And lots of dressing up. And you'd have to bring lots of costumes with you. But then again, if you don't bring costumes, makeshift costumes, everything makeshift and lots of eating as well and lots and lots of dumpster diving and being resourceful because I like being resourceful for anyone who doesn't know, [00:10:00] Um so that that would be my ideal camp 2020. All right. Hi, AICA. Oh! Oh. What are the funniest things that you've learned in this process? Thank you, Bethany. Uh, I'm Anica. I'm [00:10:30] one of the actors. And yeah, I think there's a lot of things that I've I've learned over time. But I think one of the biggest ones is I think you forget how similar things were then to how things are now. Even though a lot of things have changed. A lot of the things that were talked about back then are still talked about today. I'm trying to think of specific examples, but I think [00:11:00] better than just things that we talk about, how people feel is so timeless and how these women came to discover who they were. I think it's just so relatable in a way that I just don't think I expected. Um, and I think that, uh, anyone who comes to see the show will also be able to feel that as well, because, yeah, these women's stories are are just so [00:11:30] wonderful to listen to. Um, so I think that's probably one of the biggest things that I've learned. Um, but then also things that were different. Like, um, I used to live in Dunedin, uh, a few years ago, and, um, one of the people we interviewed talked about thinking that, um uh, that she and the person she was in a relationship with were the only lesbians in Dunedin. [00:12:00] Um, because they didn't know of any other lesbians in Dunedin and just thinking, Wow. Yeah, that's definitely not possible anymore. And so that's that's kind of nice as well to to, um, feel like there is progress in the world. So I guess, yeah, finding the differences and the similarities is probably what I've learned. Um, my question for Jess. Um, Jess as a writer, um, [00:12:30] turning interviews into a verbatim play sounds really, really difficult. Can you walk us through a bit of your process in doing that? Thanks very much, Anica. Um, my name is Jess, or a lot of people know me as Vega. I am, uh, the writer. I've coordinated the interviews for the Summer Camps verbatim Project, and I am also acting in the show as [00:13:00] well. Um, walk through the process of doing verbatim verbatim is something that I studied at, um, Otago University with uh, Stuart Young and Hillary shout out to them. They were really cool, and they taught me what I know. And I really fell in love with the form then as a way of getting, um, ground level interaction and representation to minority groups. I thought was really empowering about verbatim. And that's what I liked about it is using [00:13:30] cheap, affordable technology and going straight to the source to get stories. So that's what really drew me to it. Um, and that's kind of, uh, part of the process for me is just, um, trying to do that as well. Um, in terms of going and actually just meeting with these women and interviews did not happen. We didn't just schedule a time to go meet someone and then do an interview. We would, you know, meet up first for coffee or have lunch and dinner. We went to a women's [00:14:00] dance, which was quite fun, went to a lesbian history display and did a whole bunch of things just getting to know people before actually getting to the stage where we interview them. So when you finally have that interview and you sit down and listen to it you feel like you already have a sense of a little more sense of who these people are because you've gone through that process of getting to know them. So what I would do is just listen to the interview again and again and again and again. I would just put it on while I did cleaning. I'd put it on while I played a video [00:14:30] game or something else and listen to them over and over. And, um, it got to the stage where I guess I, um, felt like I was still there and still with them, Even though the interviews happened like, you know, weeks beforehand, I was still listening to them all the time that they were so fresh in my mind. And then after that began to try get an idea of, um, what are some of the cruxes of the stories that they're telling, um, what is, [00:15:00] you know, at the heart of what they're trying to convey? There are loads of intricacies that will just not be able to make it into the actual play itself, but listening to it enough that you try to get a feel for the A feel for the general thrust of what they're talking about. Um, And then going with that and transcribing and transcribing takes forever. It is a long process. Um, but just doing that, just going bit by bit by [00:15:30] bit and writing it all out. And then, um, looking at the bulk of transcript the transcription and, um, breaking it apart and ordering it into, um, different scenes and so on and trying to find common threads that sort of weave it through. Um, it's tricky because you still have to work on building like a dramatic arc. And you know, all these sorts of things and strong sense of character and all, You know, all the other stuff that you would do when you know, writing [00:16:00] a play. But, you know, trying to keep that, um, essential truth that's still there. I guess. Uh, going back to that empowering minority voice is something that I think is core throughout. The writing process is trying to find ways to speak with the people that you have interviewed rather than for them. Um, so you know, when you're trying to find that central thrust to what you're writing, you're not just thinking of just the interview material itself. You're thinking of the people that you've actually gone out and met with and spoken with [00:16:30] and, um, and things that they might have said afterwards because people get in touch after an interview and think, Oh, gosh, I really should have said this or whatever. And that gives you a better sense of what they really want the piece to say. Um and yeah, yeah, doing that. So at the end of your media release for this production, you've got a really interesting sentence, which says, uh, today, in a time when politically and socially there is so much division and infighting between different [00:17:00] perspectives, summer camps is an attempt to reinvent the same sense of solidarity, friendship and beauty of the original camps. Can you speak about some of the, um, kind of political and social divisions that are currently happening? And how do summer camps from the seventies speak? Speak to us now. Thanks. Sabrina. Um, I'm Sabrina. I'm the director. Um, I feel like I want everyone to answer this question with me. This is really, really hard. [00:17:30] Um, OK, so there's division. Yes, Um, one of the, um, places where there is there where there was division back in, um, the time that our elders are speaking about was, um, simply, um if you were lesbian enough, Um, Were you bisexual? If you were, that was a problem for some of these women. Um, there was a lot of, um what do you call it when, um it's like [00:18:00] you're the best lesbian? What's that phrase? Gold Star lesbian? Um, um, there was a lot of that going on, and there was And also, um, one of the other things that we explore in the play is, um, that women would bring their Children with them to the camps, and that was allowed. But some of the boy Children were not very welcome. And they were Children. Um, so those are sorts of divisions that they were talking about Then, um, and then subsequently, what we are finding is, uh, a difficult [00:18:30] conversation to be sort of having with these elders that we've spoken to, um is around, um, them being a bit upset that a lot of us claim to be queer. Why can't we use the word lesbian? Um, why? Why are people not using that word? What? Um And so we discuss that in the play, Um, and what that means to us. And, um, that's really different for different people, But, uh, there's just this really big sense [00:19:00] of not necessarily wanting to be pinned into, um a specific, Um, like, what's the word I want, like, an identification or something for your sexuality and that sexuality can be a lot more fluid through your life. And and actually, by pinning pinning yourself down, you really can restrict, um, who who you are or who you are becoming? Um, and I know that that's a really personal thing for me. [00:19:30] Um, and so we do discuss that in the play. Um, so they do struggle. They have struggled with that. And we've talked about that in our interviews and things and and meetings. Um, and then we have also discussed, uh Then there's also the sort of, um, difficulty that they have found with including, um, trans women. Um, in their conversations, um, they've talked about fighting for women only women spaces. [00:20:00] Um and so that's that's sort of a some rhetoric there as well, which we've struggled with with people who are, you know, like 40 years our senior, Um, and that still exists. Um, there are still pockets of, um, of women and of lesbian women who believe that, um, yeah, that those spaces shouldn't, um, shouldn't exist for, um, for trans women. And, um, we are, uh we really struggle [00:20:30] struggle with that, um, we talk in the play again about how, uh, to maybe some people feel that they need a space that's for women born women. Um, but that for us or for for me, anyway, that that really, really doesn't sit right There are for, um, a white sis lesbian or woman. Um, [00:21:00] we actually like a lot more privileged, Um, white sis women, um, and and that those spaces that were being fought for, um, to be lesbian and be out they can exist. Um, that's actually really not a a huge fight anymore. Um, the spaces that we're fighting for now are to include our non-binary and trans friends. And, um, we're really, [00:21:30] um, trying to create space for that. And, um, so that's where we're finding some of the the difficulty and we talk in the play, actually, about like that the that our elders and that um people that are sis and white. Um uh, really should be like putting the ladder down, um, and and bring and and kind of helping the people, The people out, um, in the rainbow community who actually need it the [00:22:00] most, which is not them anymore. The women that we interviewed actually made it really explicit to us that they would only do this project on the condition that we speak to being queer identified. They didn't want to just do a project that was exclusively about the lesbian summer camps. Um, they said, um, we don't like and I'm using their phrasing, but they're like, we don't want to just hear about old dykes going on summer camp because that's not relevant anymore. We want to hear from you and the way that you [00:22:30] identified because it is different. Um, so if we're saying these things about there being a dissonance and that sort of stuff, well, part of the actual purpose of this project coming from our elders is that they actually want to hold a space because they do want to learn, and they do want to hear from us. So it's not all just I'm not saying that you were being negative because you weren't at all. But it's It's It's, um really not just us initiating this. It was pushed for quite a lot, um, by them as well. [00:23:00] Um, in the interviews. Oh, it's Courtney again. They talk about, um this sort of, um a specific perspective we are getting from the camps and specific people it was catered to. And they mentioned there's not a lot of women of colour or, um, working class women. And that was because these camps were set up within their friendship groups. And, um, [00:23:30] yeah, it was very white and middle class, which is sort of carried over to who is mainly in this collective as well. Um, so that's quite interesting, That similarity, um, and yeah, because the like, the camps cost and stuff. And there there was exclusion because they were fighting for that space. Um, but I think the difference and our sort of framework is [00:24:00] we're Yeah, just trying to be a bit a little bit more open because they've given us that space so we don't have to fight for it, but yeah, I just wanted to touch on that working class thing. Um, I don't know. I don't really know how to gauge what we are, but we're all university educated. Um, so I don't know if that makes us middle class or whatever. So we've had some specific, um, [00:24:30] comments. And, um, we're still we're still discussing terminology all the time as a queer community as a LGBT QI a plus rainbow community. Um, and we have, um, we encounter in our lives. And even in this project, um, people being upset still with the word queer, for example. Um, so we're still having these conversations? Um, there [00:25:00] seems to be a instead of, uh, sort of coming together and all sitting and discussing it. Groups of people, um, that are still kind of sitting in their corner, getting really upset about stuff. Um, like the term queer, for example, Um, who are like, No, But I'm I'm a lesbian. So it's like we've almost gone back to this conversation from 40 years ago. This is currently happening. This has happened to us in our collective [00:25:30] and so it's sort of I think one of the interesting things that the show does is we go here was this amazing part part of New Zealand history that we don't know about. We follow so much American stories about being, um, about being queer. And here's this, like, really New Zealand centric story about, um, these women and and and what they did and how they came together. [00:26:00] And we kind of use some of those, um, the the conversations that they were having and reference them today because those some of those conversations still still exist. Um, and also, we acknowledge that, um, we can have different opinions and we are from different generations. Um, we have had some people say, Well, wow, why do you wanna, um, like, [00:26:30] hear from a whole bunch of old dikes, you know, like, Oh, they're so they they're turfs like so a bunch. You know, that kind of We've heard that kind of thing and we kind of go OK, yeah. So there might be some stuff in there that we disagree with or that we feel like we've moved on from, but collecting that history is so important and they still pave the way and we and like we are still really I'm really grateful for that. And so, by having this conversation and actually literally [00:27:00] talking to this older generation. We are, um, effectively trying to bring a portion of the community together and say, Let's just actually talk and let's hear our differences, which, uh, we hope that, um, people of more like our generation that do come and see the show will start to do start really listening to each other and accepting that there's just such a huge spectrum of experience and of difference. [00:27:30] Mm, This is Anica again. Um, I just wanted to add to that in the whole having a discussion and having a discussion as a collective, Um, we are also wanting to invite our audience to have that discussion with us. Um, it is It is a very interactive piece. We we sort of want the audience to feel like they are there with us and after the show as well. We do want to open up, uh, a discussion [00:28:00] on the things that we have been talking about in the play. So even though we have already had our discussion, we also really want to hear from our audience and what they have to say on the subject as well. Something that's really inspired me as someone witnessing the show from the outside. It's been really inspiring, seeing how discussion and interviews among [00:28:30] the collective that have also been recorded verbatim and weaved into the show, which you've done an amazing job with Jess. It's been really inspiring to see how some of these these ideas of separatism have been, um, explored, to find bridges and create bridges and to find ways to meet in the middle and find ways to understand [00:29:00] each other better. And I've been really inspired by what Jess has had to say about intersectional dialogue and the importance of coming together and building each other up and having each other's backs as anyone across the LG TB QI a plus community. And I feel like that's one of the [00:29:30] main things this project is about. I think it I think it's one of our sort of three purposes. A. Our purposes are one to to document LG TB Q I history and specifically lesbian and her story that is very unique and special to New Zealand via um, interviews to archive those interviews and also to create spaces of discussion across the LG TB [00:30:00] QI, a plus community and intergenerational discussion. And that's yeah, one of the most special things about this process. And it's been really inspiring because, as Jess and as other people have said, one of the things that spurred this project is the desire to connect with our lesbian elders to connect with our LG TB QI a plus elders who [00:30:30] have paved paved the way who have created this safe space that we're in at the moment that we want to now make more safe and more diverse. And we are so grateful for that. We want to explore that, and we want to find ways to make new progress. Jess, I just really love um, what you have to say about, um, hearing from our elders and that [00:31:00] we Yeah. Can you Can you talk about how you came to, like, want to know about your queer elders? Yeah. Um OK, Jadwiga history Geek speaking now, um, I I've I've just always love, love, love, love loved, um LGBT QI a rainbow plus plus plus, um, history in general. It's just been, you know, a thing since I was a wee [00:31:30] little baby queer way back in the day. I just, you know, ended up, and I think it gave me a sense of I was, you know, I think feeling like, you know, lonely as a little queer and thinking, Oh, gosh, you know, this is so horrible. And, you know, you feel like the only person going through it if you're in, like, a small town or in, you know, a small high school or whatever. Um, reading about history and realising. Actually, there are so many people who have gone through the exact same stuff. And you're not just alone. You're [00:32:00] a part of a people is so, um, important to me and part of why I love reading about our collective history. Um, I think another thing is because And something I I talk about a lot when I talk about this project is if you are born into any minority community, Um, you know, a A around the world you are usually born into, You know, you might call it like your your ghetto or your your place. Um, So, for example, I come from a Polish [00:32:30] family. If you're born into a Polish family, you're probably born into a polish, you know, village or a polish. You know part of a city or something like that. You are born to poles and you are raised by poles. You are have that immediate connection with your culture and your elders If you are born queer or LGBT Q. If you're born rainbow, you can be born anywhere across society, and you don't necessarily have any connection with your elders. So there is this whole history that's out there [00:33:00] that you actually have to take an extra step to find, which is quite unique to the rainbow community. So something that I'm really passionate about and, um, verbatim and and, um making, um, Rainbow queer LGBT Q history is actually doing that step and recording it, going out and trying to meet people and, um, and facilitating that process of actually just meeting and being with your elders, which otherwise [00:33:30] you wouldn't get to do so. The whole purpose of this show is also a framework just to be able to meet with the people that we come from and talk to them. I just wanted to say if if this can be to anyone who wants to jump in, um, if you could actually visit the original camps and witness one thing. What would you want? To go back and see? For the record, everyone is sticking their hand out. I'm going to give it to [00:34:00] Elaine because I saw her first. But Anna can go afterwards giving it to me because I'm the most special. Um, I. I would like to see something that actually isn't in the show, but so I just feel like people need to know about it. And so this is how people can know about it is that there was a lesbian circus that they created a circus they had, like, a circus on in their lesbian camp with, like, a naked woman riding a horse, like doing tricks. And I just I just feel like no one will know if I don't tell them that there was a lesbian circus and I would like to see [00:34:30] the Lesbian circus. Thank you, I. I would also like to see the naked pyramids they made nice. That was all. I was also gonna say the pyramid. Oh, yeah, uh, naked woman or half naked woman in the water doing pyramids. Was it eight on the bottom? Yeah, and a little kid at the [00:35:00] top and her tos. It sounds very cute. Um, yeah. Come and see our show.

IRN: 1264
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/whakarongo_pride_ilga_world_and_beyond.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004548
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089842
TITLE: Whakarongo: Pride, ILGA World and beyond
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Adrienne Girling; Elizabeth Kerekere; Jesse Porter; Kassie Hartendorp; Kay'la Riarn; Kevin Haunui; Laura Drew; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Richard Tankersley; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Adrienne Girling; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland Pride Festival; Auckland Pride festival (2019); Bisexual flag; Dana de Milo; Department of Corrections; Diversity Liaison Officers (police); Events; Gender Minorities Aotearoa (GMA); ILGA World; ILGA World Conference (2019); Intersex flag; Jac Lynch; Jack Trolove; Jesse Porter; Kassie Hartendorp; Kay'la Riarn; Laura Drew; Mani Bruce Mitchell; New Zealand Police; Out Wellington Inc.; Out in the Park (Wellington); Pacific; People Against Prisons Aotearoa (formerly known as No Pride In Prisons); Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD); Pride parade; Pride parade (Auckland); Prisoner Correspondence Network; Rainbow flag; Richard Tankersley; Rongo; Shelley Te Waiariki Howard; Sian Torrington; Stonewall riots (1969); Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); Tīwhanawhana; Tīwhanawhana Trust; Victor Taurewa Biddle; Wellington; Wellington City Library; activism; colonisation; community; facebook. com; femme; flags; gay; hui; indigenous peoples; kanohi ki te kanohi (face to face); kaupapa; korero; lesbian; mahi; manaakitanga; media; oppression; parade; peace; police; prison; prisoners; safer communities; social media; state violence; takatāpui; tangata whenua; trans; transgender; twitter. com; values; waiata; whakawahine
DATE: 27 January 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Wellington City Library, 65 Victoria Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Interviews with participants from the community hui: Whakarongo - Pride, ILGA World and beyond. The hui was organised by Tiwhanawhana Trust and held at Wellington Public Library on 27 January 2018. The hui followed division within the communities relating to various issues - including police marching (or not) in the Auckland Pride parade.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: We are currently at the mezzanine room at the Wellington Central Library, Um, and are hosting a called, um, which is I think it's down there as being, um, pride world and beyond. Um, and I'm a I'm a member of the trust, and I guess I come to this as a rainbow community member and wanting to open up a bit of a So how did and why did this come about? Basically, last [00:00:30] year, Um, the Auckland Pride board made a decision. Um, they held seven community who around Auckland, and they found that people were saying that they didn't feel safe. Um, with police having a uniformed presence at the pride. So they made a decision that in order to protect and, um, the most vulnerable, marginalised members of our communities that they would actually ask police if they could march, but maybe not bring the uniforms to come in plain clothes. And this sparked quite a debate within our community. [00:01:00] And I think what I really noticed is that, um, there was a lot of division. There was a lot of people who were really, um, passionate about this this topic, and had really differing views around, I guess what acceptance and pride looks like in 2019, but also the media was really fueling us against each other. And so this is a chance for us to actually come together and speak and listen on the one of the things that really struck me was that the online discussion really quickly turned [00:01:30] into quite divisive comments. And I wonder, having a face to face is that something kind of reacting to the that kind of online world? Definitely, absolutely. It was essential to speak or face to face, because there's just so much that we miss out on when we're speaking across across the Internet as it happens so many times. And so this is a chance for us to actually feel seen and heard by each other, which I don't I think we've all had experiences of not feeling seen or heard in our communities. So I think we want to try and create a space where that's not the norm. So can you just describe [00:02:00] the the format of today's event? Yeah, absolutely. So, um, there was 100 people who said they would come, but we're just gonna see who comes. Um and right now we've got a circle of chairs out, quite a massive circle. We're in a community room that has been used by thousands and thousands of local community people for a lot of different reasons. Um, Marie Mitchell and Sean Torrington and myself have donated items and created a centrepiece in the middle, and the centrepiece is made up of lots of different flags. Intersex flag, rainbow [00:02:30] trains, flags. There's a, um, there's, um there's a piece of fabric that came from the sister girls and the Tiwi Islands, and there's some of our in there as well. For example, Dana de Milo, um, Jean Victoria and Shelley Howard. So just, I guess, a bit of a reminder to those in our community who we are connected to and have passed. What do you what do you want to come out of this? I think I just want to come out of it with us, knowing where [00:03:00] different members of the community are sitting in regards to what is the purpose of gathering publicly in 2019? You know, we've had pride, marches and and there's a reason for why they exist. But in this day and age, I think we just need to stop and reflect and talk to each other and listen to each other and decide as a community, what is the most important thing for us? How do we want to move forward? You know, and I think we have probably more in common than we think. So one of the things that brought this [00:03:30] about was having conversations with both older generations and younger generations, and I was really noticing that there were some differences in opinion. And where are the spaces where we get to meet for the people who came before us and the people who are coming through as well? So I guess to me, this is a real opportunity for us to talk across generations because I think that was one of the big divides that came up in a lot of the online debate. So So this year is an intergenerational welcome space, and I hope that will it will be fruitful. People will come with whatever they come. But, um, myself and the people who have helped [00:04:00] organise this, including Jack Love in particular have, I guess, been really intentional in trying to create a space where people feel like they can bring their best Selves, um, and think of themselves as part of a community because we're often told that we're individuals and we just have to make our way in the world on our own. But actually, there's lots of people that we're connected to. And I think if you're already here in this room, you already probably feel like you're a little bit connected to somewhere. And how do we build on that and strengthen it and hold our divisions? It's OK to disagree. It's OK to hold different opinions. That actually is a really healthy part of a of a living [00:04:30] community. Yeah. So how do you think this will impact on not only the, uh, world conference here in a couple of months time, but also on the, uh, pride, uh, commemoration celebrations that are happening in a month? Honestly, I don't know, because to me the most important thing was just getting people in a room and seeing what happened. Because to me, the magic always comes from people themselves. You never really know. And I just wanted people to be able to be present in the space and as a facilitator. I am also being present in the space to see what unfolds. However, I would like to see us [00:05:00] being more clear about who we are as a community right now, how we acknowledge the work of the past, but how we also recognise the voices of the future and how we can just come together to host people from around the world who will have even more vast different experiences to us and how we can welcome them here. And I guess, provide a little bit of a refuge in a sanctuary because the world isn't easy for lots of people. And I just Yeah, I think that this is an opportunity for us to really make people feel at home and help people [00:05:30] feel loved and celebrated. And maybe that's what pride was all about. I'm not sure, but, um, but this is a chance to bring it all back together, So we're not actually recording, uh, the the community who, uh, why is that so? Basically, as I mentioned, I really want people to be able to be as present as possible within this space. And I don't know about anyone else, but if I know I'm recording. I'm like, ah, censoring what I'm saying being careful about what I'm saying, and I think the thing about pride is it's so public, and the media has been so public. But where are [00:06:00] the spaces? We are as communities as a collective of communities, as Kayla, Rian says, um, to actually talk to each other and hear from each other. And so yeah, I, I hope I hope that's what will come out of it. Because we don't get as much time to focus on ourselves, actually, and our relationships to each other. Uh, Kilda, I'm the founder chair of trust. Uh, we're holding our here today that we are hosting for our community. We're at the, uh, library here in Wellington and, [00:06:30] uh, yeah, pride world and beyond. So how did this come about? Uh, this is actually led by our some of our young people, Uh, particularly Cassie, who's on our board and wanting to just come from a strength based, proactive place about looking at the way that we communicate within our community and given so much we have to do in the world and so many things we want to change both within and without our communities [00:07:00] that are just saying. Actually, in Wellington we can do things in a really beautiful and healing and respectful manner enhancing way. And so was Was this partly in response to the the pride issues in Auckland? Yeah, I think that's part of it. The we're concerned about the way that the process, uh, occurred. We're really concerned about the divisions that we could see happening in our community, and we want to make sure that I guess we [00:07:30] get in front of that kind of those kind of conversations. It's important that people have the chance to say, uh, what's really important for them, what's going on for them, and we absolutely want to uphold that. Hence a space to listen space to hear what's going on. So today is not necessarily about solutions to everything. It's about giving the space to actually listen deeply to what's going on for people. One of the things that struck me was that the, um, online comments and discussions [00:08:00] seem to, um, devolve very quickly into just people, um not listening and and just slagging each other off. What's the difference between say, like an online conversation and then doing it face to face here. I mean, it's a core Maori Maori concept of face to face you in in the same space. You're breathing the same ear and you can pick up the nuances of body language. You can see how someone reacts to comments, Uh, but also you can look somebody [00:08:30] in the eye and speak your truth, and that's really, really critical. Can you just describe for me what some of the the big issues that have kind of cropped up over the last months have been? Obviously, there's the issue around police and uniforms. That is an issue that's already been settled here in Wellington. There's other issues that people have about, uh, being trans exclusionary, for example, defining what a woman's [00:09:00] space is. If and and then who's allowed in that? Who gets to control language, actually, and who gets to define things? Uh, that's and I think it's really important when we're having those conversations that those of us for myself say, as a lesbian fem Who is that the certain level of privilege I have achieved over time or the acceptance say of lesbian is a is a word that you know [00:09:30] that we don't try and curtail or reduce or undermine the rights of those people with different identities who are just trying to create space for themselves to live their own lives. What would you like to come out of? The definitely that people feel that they've been hurt, that their views have been respected and I guess an enhanced sense of unity inside our community [00:10:00] because many of us already we work together across many, many issues. I think Wellington does this really well, and I'm actually really proud of that. We've been going now for about 18 years, and we've been I think a part of that that's part of our strategic plan is to help unify and weave in and around our communities. And so I'm really proud that it's a young person on our board who is leading this work. So, um, Manny Mitchell, I'm part of the [00:10:30] host rou for the Elga World Conference, which is going to be here in not quite two months. And we're expecting up to 500 registrations from half of those, probably from around 85 countries around the world. So a huge influx of rainbow activists from around the world basically converging on Wellington, and we're really excited about it. So it's a really historic event. It's historic because the Elga conference [00:11:00] has never, ever. They've been in the Southern Hemisphere before, and it's whole 40 years of existence. So this year is a 40 year anniversary of, and it's the 50th anniversary of Stonewall. So, you know, hugely, two hugely important events for our community. And it's a great opportunity for us within New Zealand, within Wellington and within the Pacific to share some of our stories with people coming from around the world. I think we have a unique [00:11:30] story the way that we've developed it in terms of partnerships with each other, um, in our communities. Which is part of the reason why we've come today, of course, for the event, uh, same sort of principles, but spreading that out amongst people around the world. We've got some Pacific Island, uh, activists coming that have been sponsored by, uh, embassies. And, um, they're going to have an opportunity as well as us in the Pacific to talk to the independent expert [00:12:00] on violence and gender from the United Nations and so forth, Um, about our particular issues down here. So a really important occasion for us here in here in the South Pacific, in Oceania and New Zealand, you briefly touched on the event that we're here today at Can you just describe what the event is and and why it came about. So has come about as an opportunity for us as a community to discuss. How do we talk about things within our community? [00:12:30] What values do we appreciate? What values should we hold ourselves to when we have our discussions? Even though some of the topics we may discuss could be, uh, either controversial or quite different differing views amongst ourselves in the community? How do we do that in a safe space? To me, that's what was about how How do you think these issues will impact on the world? Well, we're hoping that they won't impact very much [00:13:00] at all. But it is about remembering how to be with each other, how to be respectful, and I think to always think of the big picture. So you know this. The issues that face our community are many and complex, and some of the things need immediate action, and some of the things we're trying to change a long haul. Some of our activists work at the front and throw rocks, and some of us work in the background. Um, doing that work and it's all [00:13:30] valuable. And it's all important. And just remembering that and remembering how to do that in a gentle, respectful way with each other, what would you like to see come out of? Um, today's event today. I would like to see people talking to each other and talking in a way which builds our community, even even, you know, stronger and so forth. So those are the things I'd like to see coming out of today's event? Yeah, I think [00:14:00] all of those things, um, talking to each other about how we're talking to each other and and that, um, respectful way. And as Kevin said, we we there be lots of views here, and we don't always agree about things, but if we can remember that great big picture, we're all trying to create a better world for our community. And I think you know, that might be the message in itself for Elga. How how we progress. Uh, how we do it here how we might do it and how that might be a [00:14:30] template throughout the world within their own community, of advancing issues within the community and then using community to advance it wider throughout the throughout the country. And just finally, personally, how are you feeling? With Elga World only being what, a month or so away? Um, how's that going? Excited and terrified. So, um, you know, there's a huge amount of work going on both here and and Wellington with the people we're working with, [00:15:00] but we also know our colleagues and friends around the world. So you know, these events happen and people forget about all the work that goes on beforehand. So, yeah, we we're we're excited, Um, just working on tying some things together at the moment. Um, for people who are interested to look at the friends of Elga Page because Jack Lynch built that as a mechanism for the local community to know more about what's going on. [00:15:30] Yes, it's hard work, So it's still a lot of hours to to get through, I think, to to bring together the programme that we want to share with, um both the world and with our own city and communities. Um, so we are responsible for a social programme and some of those events, uh, we definitely want to focus on providing the space for community and delegates to come together and talk and show each other [00:16:00] what they do. [00:16:30] [00:17:00] [00:17:30] So, Kayla, can you describe how the who came about? Um, a friend [00:18:00] of mine, Cassie. Her mother actually lives behind me, and it was by accident. I spotted her out of my window, so I invited her upstairs, and we were talking on very topics. So we got on the conversation of, uh, Auckland, how it's going to all in the news and what have you And then I come up with a bit of an idea about Well, maybe we should have a preemptive down here in Wellington, and from there, it sort of Cassie [00:18:30] ran off there and at a at a certain stage, I in fact, wasn't gonna attend because I thought it would be all one sided, which is not what I really anticipated. I'd rather see individual communities coming together. So it's a collective, um, progression. Not just some people listening to the, uh community and say, Well, we're gonna do this on your behalf? No. But then I sort of [00:19:00] got to understand a bit more about the, um, progression and what people had to say. And I thought, Well, I can't very well come up with an idea like this, not put my two cents in with. So therefore, I did what I do best, and that's catering. And what amazing catering. And And there were so many people that turned up How how many people do you think showed up? Uh, there are about 64 in the Sorry, I It's a I, [00:19:30] um, do a head check of everything. Yeah, and Richard, you were one of the people that that got up and spoke. And what did you speak about? Um, I we were asked to respond to three prompting questions, Um, and the answer, from my point of view to those was and talks about care and hospitality, Um, and I wanna, uh uh, and and particularly, uh, liberation for me is, is is wanting to be part [00:20:00] of communities for which is a a core concept and a fundament fundamental practise. Um and so I want to be part of, um, a a group of communities where we actually look after each other. And so if we're going to have a pride parade, then we need to have as a as a, um, a primary concern. We need to make sure that we look after each other in the context of that. Um, and one of the fears that I have is that [00:20:30] we don't build communities that look after each other. Is that when we go on the international, national and international stage, um, then the lack of for amongst our communities and for ourselves then spills over and might impact on our ability to offer that to to our international visitors. Um, so it's not just about the pride parade. It's actually about the World Conference and the responsibilities that our people have. [00:21:00] And I'm talking about the the the Maori communities that have for leading the hospitality, leading the welcome, leading the embracing of our international visitors. But if we haven't done that, embrace, uh, internally within our own communities, then then the the fear I have is that then becomes a a theatre for the airing of those internal differences which then, um, tramples on the on the manner of our visitors and of those who are are leading the attempts [00:21:30] to host. And I don't want to see that happen either. I. I want to be part of caring communities. And so what did you think about those questions? Talking about liberation and and and kind of why we do these public events honestly, Like I'm quite straightforward. I'm like, I prefer to be known as a hands on person, not listening to rhetoric and crap or what have you, but yeah. I mean, I fully agree with Richard. Everything Richard said to us, Yeah, that is [00:22:00] true, because if you look down deep into it, it's almost embedded into the Maori culture. It's like with myself. If there's something to be done and I can do something to help the community, I just do it like catering or, uh or what? To help you. Yeah. I mean, I used to be a co-chair for out in the park doing a fundraiser. Not a problem. Yeah, anything to get people involved because to me, it's not [00:22:30] the individual. It's the entire community. And well, hence why? I said before, that's what I try to interpret for tonight. and yeah, apparently it's gone well, and I hope it sort of continues. But what Richard touched on before was a bit like the parade. It should not be like one sided. And people on the outskirts say, Oh, look at those bunch of freaks. If someone you know look at the gay, the lesbian, No, I interpret it as being [00:23:00] Look at the transsexuals. Look at the look at this. It's a celebration of ourselves and what we have achieved all these issues because, I mean, I'm old, and back then things were so hard. But like with the police, I think they should be included, because for many decades we struggled to break the barrier between what we and how we got treated. [00:23:30] And I knew people who actually got kicked out of police force because of their gender or sexuality. But nowadays we've got lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender transsexual, all of them in the in the, um, police. And what people don't seem to realise is when they go to a meeting and start bitching about the police, they should realise they've broke. People in there have broken a barrier which has been there for like 40 odd years. They've [00:24:00] made advancements for the entire community. But, no, they still come back to one person. Single. Yeah, from the discussions today. What what are the kind of key things you would take away? That it's important for us to sit around and listen to each other and to hear those different points of view? Um, it was really important that we understand who was in the room. That process took half the time that we were there, and it was really important for people to say who they were [00:24:30] and, um, a little bit about what's important for them. Um, because then it becomes more difficult to, because without that information, then a whole heap of assumptions can get made and and and people then get pushed into corners that they don't necessarily belong in, Um, and treated, um, like, um, like the They're part of a stereotypical group. And and that doesn't help the communication. And it's not going to help us build build, uh, based communities. [00:25:00] Yeah. What? Richard just said about being put into a stereotypical group, not blink, not blow my own horn. But trans transsexuals and indigenous have had that All these decades. It's like, Oh, no, you're part of the gay community. It's like No, so we don't get identified. But, you know, a person can walk down the street. They may have a slight, a permanent war. Someone walk up, you're [00:25:30] automatically gay. What if they're not? And it's just because, like, I'm from a different community, um, people automatically assume that I'm part of the gay community, and it's like, Well, yeah, I know them. But no, I'm not. Part of them may have been when I was younger, but no. And that's why we have the letters. They stand for individual communities. Yeah, and that's sort of [00:26:00] why this happened. So they can have a voice. They can feel they're a part of it, because otherwise, yeah, but I do say that this is going to be happening again, progression and it's gonna kick some asses around them to show them that Yes, we are. We are the hub, and we show what we mean. We mean to we mean to include we mean this and that, and we'll do [00:26:30] it. I'm Adrian Girl. I came, I guess, as an individual. And we came because I wanted to come together as a community to talk about some of the kind of current issues facing our community. Some of the divisions. Pride. How do we come together in unity, or at least hear from each other? And And the title of the day is and but really spoke to me, Um, and [00:27:00] I felt that it would be held really nicely by. I'm Jesse Porter, and I basically came here because I think I mean, there's so much diversity and difference of opinions in our community, and we all need to listen to each other so that we can come together as a group without undermining our own individual and diverse opinions and things. Can you describe what the atmosphere was like today? Uh, sure. Yeah, it was, I guess, exactly what I expected from holding the space. [00:27:30] It felt like a really beautiful, um, open space where we were able to. Everyone was able to bring what they could bring. Um, all the diversity that that means, um, share openly. And there was no, you know, repercussion of that. It didn't feel like, um so it just felt like it was a really open and inclusive atmosphere. Even Though people were sharing such diverse and desperate [00:28:00] and divergent opinions and views and experiences, it still felt kind of safe and OK to do that. Yeah, and pretty much what Adrian said. There were people who were talking about some stuff that was obviously very, very difficult for them to express, knowing that there are other people in the room who had opposing views. But they still felt safe to be able to give their opinion. And everybody did seem to listen. So what were the, um, key things that you would take away from this? I guess some of the questions that [00:28:30] were posed to us at the beginning were to think about what? What? What would liberate us? What liberation will look like for us in our community, Um, things that we fear and just what the purpose or why we want to come together and gather publicly in events like pride. I don't think I came away with a definitive view from a community. I think I really I have heard, um, many different perspectives on that, [00:29:00] um, all the way from pride should continue to be a protest, and, um and that should kind of liberate us as I guess we're not all liberated and there are some that are still oppressed. But we need to recognise that and still treat pride that way. All the way to it should be a celebration and I think that has sort of been a bit of a difficult thing in our communities for a while. There was also a lot [00:29:30] of focus on Auckland or at least Auckland was mentioned A lot in terms of the big public discussion that happened there recently is still going on in terms of police involvement and pride. And I heard a few sentiments that Wellington is different from Auckland and that, you know, we shouldn't have the same kind of fight or discussion here and actually being involved in pride for many years in Wellington. We've actually been having these conversations for years [00:30:00] and we have been falling out over these conversations for years to the point where our organisations have split apart. We just managed to keep that away from the public view. The media wasn't that interested in us. We were a smaller city and the community themselves didn't really find out how bad it got in Wellington but for me, I take a lot. You know, there's a lot of personal stuff in it for me, having been the chair of Wellington pride when we [00:30:30] had very, very difficult conversations. And so what I took from today, my long answer is to say that, um I guess it it was just really amazing to see the community have this conversation out loud people I've seen before and people I haven't a very diverse group of people with diverse views, but to actually see the conversation happening, um, out loud in the community and in a safe space was really [00:31:00] positive. And and I'm quite optimistic, and I hope that we have more of them. Um, yeah, for me, I suppose it is just how important it is for people to listen to speak up, to be heard. Um, and I hope to keep doing more of that, you know, not just around the pride festivals, but within the community in general, again acknowledging and understanding and listening to that diversity. Yeah. So I just attended. Uh um, which was put on by the trust here in, um and [00:31:30] that basically entailed just sort of bringing all kinds of, uh, people from, uh, the rainbow community in the region. Um, and having us all come together and having a, um that quite explicitly kind of spoke to, um, the events of that have happened around the politics around Auckland pride in the last couple of months. Um, and how not necessarily how we respond to that as a as a community down here, but, um, just acknowledging how much, um, conversation and debate that that that has spurred up. Basically, Um, [00:32:00] So I showed up, um, both as an individual. But I'm also a member of people against President Al, um, which was a big part of this corridor in 2015, um, as no pride in prisons and protesting the inclusion of, um, corrections and police in the pride parade to the at the expense of and the exclusion of most vulnerable in our community. Um, so it was a really interesting experience being able to, um, have a space where we could be, um that was very consciously and intentionally constructed for, um, having [00:32:30] a corridor and speaking to, um, every side of the debate in a way that could be a little more civilised. Um, knowing that a lot of the things that happened to, um, my like friends and and, um, comrades and papa up in Auckland, um, were quite violent. And so it was really relieving to see a space made possible that acknowledged a lot of the problems that occurred there. Basically. So So how did you get involved? Uh, yes. So, um, I moved back to aotearoa in in 2014. And around that [00:33:00] time, um, I was kind of reconnecting with people and, um, building a new sort of social safety net for myself and, you know, kind of figuring out how to reintegrate myself into rainbow communities. Um, around that time, um, via Twitter, actually, um, and other social media platform I got in contact with kind of who felt like my people, Um, who were, uh, kind of involved in this reading group at the time and that eventually, um, manifested in no pride in prisons and that original protest in Auckland. Pride 2015, um, around the inclusion of [00:33:30] corrects and the police and pride and and how that is, to the detriment of the most vulnerable in the community. Um, yeah. Since then, uh, because you know, we it was informed by a lot of thinking. It was a very intentional action. Kind of like the intention that went into this today. And, um, over time, we kind of realised that a lot of the conditions they know the con, the conditions in prisons, the conditions, um, that lead to being particularly vulnerable to police violence. And all of these things [00:34:00] aren't something we can solve by just focusing on our own. Just focusing on our, um we had we had to expand our scope. Basically, um And so, uh, there was an organised protest at Auckland Pride the second year that had way more people involved. Um, but then the year after that, we actually stepped back because we were focusing our energies in other areas that were far more structural and, like actually approaching and, um, engaging with, um, the institution of the prison rather than the symbol, the symbolism of having it involved in pride. Um, So, [00:34:30] um, and you know, this year, obviously that's changed again, and we're kind of bringing ourselves back into the fold as far as being part of the, um, but with the acknowledgment that we are involved we are engaged with the queer community. But we are also, um, you know, putting our money or not money, maybe our money where our mouth is around doing stuff like, you know, we're doing lots of advocacy for prisoners prisoner correspondence network that we established the largest of its kind [00:35:00] in its country, but hundreds and hundreds of people communicating both the inside and out and how much the how important this is and how integral it is to how we relate to the rainbow community. But also, just how much? Um, yeah, just how connected all of that is and how inseparable it is. Um, to our experience of being part of the rainbow community from the discussions. What what are the kind of key things that you'll take away? Um, I guess the main thing is, uh, [00:35:30] just making sure the whole you know, that we are able to continue coming together. Um, it's very tempting to draw hard lines in the sand. Um, and I you know, I still may may personally still believe that some of those need to be drawn. Um, there is a time and a place where you need to just put your foot down. Um, and I'm not saying that this has necessarily softened any of those edges, but it's also made it possible to do that and continue having these conversations with people. Um, and I think that's the most important part of what was established here. Yeah. So [00:36:00] where do you see this going in the future? Here, Um I mean, personally, I get really tired of saying, Oh, we're starting the conversation because it feels like we're always starting the conversation. We're never getting anywhere with that conversation. Hey, um, but, uh, this feels like the there was a lot of intent went into, um, this, um To start a conversation that could last effectively, um, so that we're not starting things over and over and over again and never getting anywhere, but that we can actually have a sustained corridor around, um, how to actually build [00:36:30] safer communities together. You know how to, um, how we can do that without, um creating these recreating, creating and recreating these sort of the power dynamics with the same privileged people wield that power over the people who can't protect themselves from that. So, yeah, that ongoing dialogue and making sure that we've got, um, a conversation going about how we can navigate that in a day and age where the institutions that have historically oppressed us now also wear our face. Um, and there's a lot [00:37:00] of, you know, a lot of different perspectives on what that means to us today. I think that's the most important thing for me. Uh, or, um, I came along today to share the perspective of, um the I guess the activist communities who are still subjected to a lot of police violence for speaking out and exercising their kind of right to to say [00:37:30] that they would like a better world. And and you actually got up and spoke to the quite large crowd, um, at at the, uh What? What did you say? Um, I spoke about my personal experience with police violence and with PTSD, which post traumatic stress disorder. It's a mental injury that I have because of being subjected to police violence. I was beaten up by the police in 2009, [00:38:00] and I did not regain the use of my right hand, Um, for about three years. Um, so that had affected me greatly. And Then last year, I met the police officer who beat me up, and he identified himself to me. Um, so I've just been trying to deal with living with this mental injury and the effects that it has had on my everyday life. So this is obviously [00:38:30] quite a personal connection in terms of, um, say the police and pride. I mean, what do you What do you think of police? Marching and pride? I think that the police are an inherently oppressive colonial institution. They have always criminalised the poor and, um, indigenous people and those who speak the truth to power and their response to being asked to wear T shirts [00:39:00] in Auckland. Pride is quite telling that they were more interested in withdrawing their support and creating a rift than in listening to the community that they, um, purported to support. Can you describe the the the atmosphere at the Hui today? The atmosphere was amazing. It was a very radical space. Um, it was created by for everyone to bring and share their views and to not see [00:39:30] us as in conflict, necessarily to try and find the common connections between us all. Even though we may disagree. Sometimes we often have similar values that are aligned. Was the the god that, um, kind of took care of that space. And I think that, um that really showed in the quality of of the conversation and [00:40:00] the fact that everyone was able to Well, not everyone could speak, but that people were able to share their deeply held views from the discussions today. What What are the key things that you will take away? I think I'm just really inspired by, um, by the space that they have created and the way they have brought the queer community together in a really positive way. I think that the last speaker, I can't remember [00:40:30] her name. But she spoke about the need for recognition of the place of, um in this country. And that is the thing that will most stick with me. What do you think we can do better in the future? A lot of things. Yeah, a lot of things. We have a short time on this planet, and we could make it an amazing world if we listened to each other and worked together. And, um, I guess fought for those who are most depressed in society. [00:41:00] My name is Mara, and I came here because I'm in the rainbow community and love being involved with events. My name is Vashti. Um, I came here to participate because it sounded great. My name is Anna, and I work for gender minorities. A. And I came here because we have obviously a visited interest in what happens. And so what did happen? Um, well, obviously there was no resolution [00:41:30] was made about it, but there it was good to hear other people's opinions and their different thoughts and feelings. Um, surrounding the issue. And can you just describe what the issue was? I guess, um, creating, um, re recollecting what pride is about recollecting what the rainbow community is about and making sure that, like when there are issues where around things like trauma and people's safety, Um, as well as you know, in the long term that we can have positive relationships, I guess with [00:42:00] ourselves as well as everyone else and what work is involved, actually to create that safety and to create those long term like there's a lot of money involved in creating that, basically. So what do we need to address in order to make things more safe and to have, like, a healing where there's trauma and things like that and create a pathway for the next step. Can you describe the atmosphere at today's? Um, I felt that it was a very welcoming space. Um, even though people were had some vulnerable moments like it was, I felt quite positive [00:42:30] about how the came across and that there was space for people to be heard and to put the issues and be genuinely listened to, which I think is very important and and understanding. It's a complex issue as well, absolutely like it was definitely good to see all the rainbow community all in one room and not arguing or bickering, but actually listening to each other and taking each other's, um, viewpoints quite seriously and responding appropriately. Yeah, I feel like what everyone had to say was help with a lot of sensitivity, [00:43:00] which was really good to see. Yeah, what are the things that you'll take away from this? Um, I really liked how it was organised, and I don't know, I just liked how generous everyone was and how I I just liked the set up. Really? And that's the main thing that I take away is just like how, um, how the Copa was described at the start and how we're talking about the atmosphere of peace. And we took a long time, like, you know, bringing everyone into the space and making [00:43:30] sure they were all gonna, uh, be respectful. And then we were, which is great. I think what I'm going to take away from this is, um, experience. Like I've just been with gender minorities not very long and clearly I'll be attending more of these meetings regarding, um, Rainbow community issues. And so what's good is that I can, um, be more confident to speak up and say what I need to say and then also understand these issues on a deeper level. So good experience from that I will take I've taken [00:44:00] away the, um there's a lot of positive seeds in there that I'm looking forward to seeing how they grow in the future. Yeah, I would have liked to hear more about elger, though I feel like we talked a lot about whether the police should be participating in pride, and I just Yeah, I feel like it could have been, like, three times as long, and it would have been great. Maybe I was surprised [00:44:30] by that. Actually, I thought it was going to be more focused. But I understand that to have closure on this issue so we can move forward with that. But I think it is a good thing. Yeah, I think that like it, an issue that's on everyone's mind. So we were kind of spending some time settling that, and there just wasn't much time to get on things after settling it. Yeah. So, Cassie, we're in the lift. Um, we've just finished the how did it go for you? That was really great. I really enjoyed it. I felt like people bring a real diversity [00:45:00] of experience into the space and that people took a risk to be able to share things. People share quite personal things. Um um and and, um Yeah, I felt like we were able to sit within that space. It was There was a lot of tension that came up. As you know, even I felt myself disagreeing with some points that were raised, but the fact that we were able [00:45:30] to stay there and not leave and not yell at each other and just exist with within that discomfort, Um, to me was a really positive thing to be able to do. So I'm really happy with that. Yeah. What do you think you'll take away? I'm still going to mull it over. I'm going to be thinking over this for about two weeks, and I'm gonna just absorb up all of the things that was said today. And then I'm gonna Yeah, work out what that means for our communities and how I can support, um us to move forward. [00:46:00] Yeah.

IRN: 1247
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/transgender_day_of_remembrance_2018.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004547
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089841
TITLE: Transgender Day of Remembrance 2018
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ellen Murray; Jem Traylen; John Harper; Rev Dr Susan Jones; Sandra Kirby; The Glamaphones
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Carterton; Celtic cross; Chris Finlayson; Christianity; Dana de Milo; Ellen Murray; Frances Bird; Georgina Beyer; Intersex flag; Jem Traylen; John Harper; Judy Dumbleton; Marama Davidson; Rachel Hyde; Rev Dr Susan Jones; Sandra Kirby; Shelley Te Waiariki Howard; St Andrew's on the Terrace; The Glamaphones; Transgender Day of Remembrance; Transgender flag; Wellington; Zena Campbell; authenticity; bravery; church; death; gender; gender-affirming surgery; intersex; religion; suicide; trans; transgender; transition
DATE: 18 November 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: St Andrew's on the Terrace, 30 The Terrace, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Good morning and welcome to worship at Saint Andrews on the terrace, everyone is welcome. Our service begins with the gathering words which are inside the front cover of the order in this place. All are welcome. The tall, the th the shy and the out there in this place all are accepted. [00:00:30] Sis and trans gay, lesbian, straight and bisexual in this place all are loved simply because we are all human beings in this place. All are honoured for the struggle between commemoration and celebration goes on for all of us all of the time. Blessing. [00:01:00] [00:01:30] [00:02:00] [00:02:30] [00:03:00] [00:03:30] [00:04:00] [00:04:30] Please be seated. It's really good to have you all here today. Um, the glamour phones had a concert last night, and so, um, they'll be falling asleep during the sermon. We expect that, but it's really wonderful of them to come today, Um, given that all the energy they put out last night, [00:05:00] so thank you very much for coming. And, uh, thank you, everyone for being here on this day. It would be great if we didn't have to have a day like today where we remember those who have had shorter lives than the majority of the of the population, some of them through natural causes, some of them through the extra wear and tear on their lives and some of them through violence. And so we remember, um, today [00:05:30] So it's good that you're all here. Let's pray when everyone is together. There is a wholeness and a fullness that we miss when we are a part. And so together. Today we come in the special day to remember those [00:06:00] whose lives have been a struggle and whose lives have been cut short. And we remember today, too, those who continue that struggle to be truly who they are to be alive and free and able to be an authentic human being on every in every facet of their lives. And so today as we think and remember as [00:06:30] we sing as we pray as we light candles in the darkness, may we know the peace of the spirit. May we know serenity and our heart, and may we resolve to make sure that our world becomes better and better and safer for everyone to be. And so we say together, the prayer that's printed in your [00:07:00] order of service, one that was written in 2016 for such a service in the States, our mother and father, our beloved parent and whom we move and breathe and have our being. The hallowing of your name shines forth in the diversity of your Children. May your peace and love, justice and equality, inclusion and belonging reign here [00:07:30] on Earth as in heaven. Grant that our transgender loved ones might have in their daily needs, that they might find gainful employment without discrimination, that they might have access to medical care without fear that they might have their rights and lives protected, and that they might find a loving community to belong to and [00:08:00] call their own. Forgive us for the ways that we have fallen short and failed. Your transgender Children forgive us of the times we turned away or did not care for the times. We laughed or judged their unique expression of your image for the times we have misspoken, asked too much or failed to hear as we [00:08:30] forgive those who might have failed us. Lead us away from the temptation to be complacent in the face of injustice, but instead give us courage to stand up and stand with your beloved Children. for your love and justice is to be made manifest now and forever. I've been might be interesting to go home and dig out a copy [00:09:00] of the original Lord's Prayer and do a comparison. That'd be an interesting comparison to make. Uh, every Sunday we light a rainbow candle here as a sign of inclusion. But it's not, um, an inclusion necessarily of the LGBT community. It's to include Children as well, and it's a hotly contested honour to light the rainbow candle. And before the service, someone booked themselves in the new Angus. [00:09:30] Angus is gonna light the candle, but the other Children are going to come forward because they know this is time for a story. Perfectly done. Well done. Thank you. And we have a picture here of Zeena, who was killed last year, and she's there amongst us today and her dad is here too. Right? So, Ellen, you're going to take the story. But we need a chair for you, don't we? [00:10:00] I'm gonna read a book that I really love. It's called Maurice Micklewhite in the tangerine dress. Maurice Micklewhite has a mother named Moira and a cat named Moon Morris likes Sundays because his mother makes some pancakes on Sundays. Most of all, Morris lacks the oops, there we go. Mondays are great, [00:10:30] too, because on Mondays Morris goes to school. Morris likes a lot of things about school. He likes to paint, do puzzles, the apple juice at snack time and singing the loudest during circle time. Most of all, Morris likes the dress up centre and the tangerine dress. Morris likes the colour of the dress. It reminds him of tigers, the sun and his mother's hair. He likes the noises. The dress makes swish [00:11:00] when he walks and crinkle crinkle crinkle. When he sits down your dad, he takes turns wearing all the different shoes, but his most favourite ones go click, click, click across the floor. Sometimes the boys make fun of Morris. Sometimes the girls do, too. Morris pretends he can't hear their words over the swish, swish wishes, crinkle crinkle crinkles and click click clicks he makes when he walks. Maurice pretends [00:11:30] he can't hear their words, but he can. On Monday, Becky tried to pull the dress right off his back. You can't wear it. You're a boy. On Tuesday, Eli Henry and the other boys wouldn't let Maurice ride on their spaceship unless he took it off. Astronauts don't wear dresses, they said. On Wednesday, Ben Lila noticed Morris's fingernails. His mother had painted them for him the night before. [00:12:00] They chased him around the playground, shouting pinky fingers. On Thursday, the boys wouldn't sit in MRS. At the snack table. On Friday, Morris pretended he had a tummy ache and he thought of all the kids in his class and all the main things they did and said his tummy ache for real. His mother let him stay in his bed and read books about elephants. Mo sat in his lap. Mo liked elephants. Too [00:12:30] good. On Saturday, Morris's mother brought him some apple juice. As he took a sip, she stroked his hair and elderly Morris suddenly felt well enough to do a puzzle. He come to himself and felt better Still. On Sunday, Morris crawled out from under the covers after a wonderful dream about being on a space [00:13:00] safari with Moo. In the dream, they saw big blue elephants and tigers, the colour of the sun that Morris could hold in the palm of his hand. The elephants swish, swished as they moved through the grass and the Tigers, they giant leaves that crinkle crinkle crinkled as their tiny teeth chewed them. The buttons on the spaceship click Click clicked under Morris's fingers. [00:13:30] Morris wanted to share all the amazing things he'd seen. He took out his brushes, put on his smock and began to paint, using every colour he could imagine. He showed his painting to his mother. When he was done, he pointed out the big blue elephant, the tiny tiger, the colour of the sun, the tall grass and the giant leaves. He pointed out Moo and his shiny round space helmet. [00:14:00] And who's that? His mother asked, pointing at the little boy in the tangerine dress riding atop the big blue elephant. Maurice was hoping she'd ask. That's me, he said. On Monday, Morris went to school with his painting rolled up in his backpack. When he had the chance, he put on the dress that reminded him of tigers in the sun and his mother's hair. [00:14:30] Morris swished the tangerine dress crinkle, crinkle, crinkled his shoes click, click clicked. Morris felt wonderful. Eli and Henry wouldn't let him on the spaceship, so Morris built his own. He hung his painting on the front of it and climbed in, ready to take off. Are they really elephants in space? Eli asked. And Tigers. If you [00:15:00] follow me, we can find out, Morris offered. Eli and Henry followed Morris to a planet they had never visited before. As they explored Maurice Swish swish, the tangerine dress crinkle, crinkle crinkled his shoes. Click, click, click. By the time they returned to Earth, Eli and Henry had decided that it didn't matter if astronauts wore dresses or not. The best astronauts were the ones who knew where all the good adventures were hiding. [00:15:30] Morris smiled. He already knew that when snack time was over, Becky demanded the dress. Boris told her she could have it when he was finished. Boys don't wear dresses, Becky sniped. Morris smiled as he swished, crinkled and clicked back to his spaceship. This boy does, and we've got some special people here who are going to sing to us [00:16:00] now, and we thought you'd like to hear that before you went to Rainbow Room. Here they come. Look, they're all over there to sing a called. Um, that comes from where I grew up And when I grew up, I heard the story many times about and how she fell in love with who lived on the island in the middle of the [00:16:30] lake. And, um, there were, I think there were differences between the tribes and and she was kicked from him and eventually she across the lake to be with him. Um, but what I found out when I was older was that in some of the early, um recorded examples of the story, there's another character in it. And, um, had this male intimate companion. And the word [00:17:00] that's used in the story is in one of the early Maori English dictionaries that's translated as an intimate companion of the same gender or same sex. Um, and there's I've heard different stories of this story since then, and then some of them, um, two as with and then he falls for and then Tiki's heartbroken. And in other stories, it's told us more of a marriage of convenience. [00:17:30] And she was a really staunch woman who didn't really want to settle down, and he wanted to stay with his his lover, and, um, they got married to take off some of the social things they needed to do. But each had their, um, were happy in their own way. Um, and then another story. They all end up living together, I think. Anyway, um, so that's, um, That word has been reclaimed by, um, Maori people in the rainbow community since, um, that story has been retold. [00:18:00] Yeah. Yeah, [00:18:30] I You don't? [00:19:00] Yeah, right. [00:19:30] Um, [00:20:00] her kids. [00:20:30] Bye. Yeah, time [00:21:00] again. One. Me? [00:21:30] [00:22:00] Yes. [00:22:30] [00:23:00] Black. [00:23:30] Yeah. [00:24:00] [00:24:30] The gospel reading this morning is Matthew Chapter 26 Verses 36 to 39. Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, Sit here while I go over there and pray He took Peter [00:25:00] and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. Then he said to them, My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me going a little further. He fell with his face to the ground and prayed. My father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me yet not as I will, [00:25:30] but as you will the contemporary reading from young in The New Age, by David Tay, is but Young argues that conventional religion's morality has misread its own religious symbols. The way of Christ is not, he argues, a way that leads to the privileging of the light above the dark, but a radical way that leads to the integrative or both, [00:26:00] and perspective. This is why young often argues that Christ is a symbol of the self, namely the archetype that leads to psychological integration and whose dynamic energies lead to wholeness. For young, the symbol of Christ upon the Cross is a major world symbol for the inevitable suffering that results from the human experience of being pulled in opposite directions [00:26:30] or from enduring the pain of the tension between the archetypal opposites. For the word in Scripture, for the word among us, for the word within us, we give thanks. Amen. When Jem and I were talking about, um, preparing the service, I, um she was saying that a lot of Trans people in the community don't know that this is a church that doesn't go [00:27:00] on about Jesus Christ, and we laughed, Um, and she's right in the sense that I think that she meant it which was that We don't, um uh bash people and say that you've got to do this and this and this and this kind of thing. Um, but strangely enough, um, I'm going to talk a bit about Christ and actually the cross today, which I find a bit amazing. And I have to say it's one of those things. It's either gonna work brilliantly or it's not. So let's [00:27:30] go over it and I'll explain why Let's pray as we sit and reflect for a few moments, May our minds be clear and our hearts be open. So may it be I in. And this is the reason I was thrilled to get an academic paper sent to me this week from Francis Bird. Do people remember Francis Bird? Francis has been awarded a PhD on her thesis on the glamour phones. [00:28:00] She's also written the paper from the thesis specifically on the relationship between the choir and Saint Andrews. It's fascinating. I skimmed it on my phone during my holiday, and something jumped out at me hence today. So I want to bounce off a a comment that she quoted in her paper right near the beginning. It's about what we could call the elephant in the room. The great Big cross at the front of the building. [00:28:30] Crosses aren't very popular these days when they're waived by conservative and domineering, abusive church members. And yet, strangely, they're popularly used on roadsides at crash sites where people have died. I've just been in Dunedin, where 4000 white crosses made by the local men's shed have were a feature of the armistice celebrations at the Ceta. The triumphal use of the cross is a trademarked [00:29:00] logo waved to dominate. Other people contrasts with this use of the cross as a symbol of sacrifice. But David Tay, in our contemporary reading suggests that perhaps neither of those readings are quite right. And David, for your information, is actually, uh, a retired professor of English literature who used to lecture at La Trobe University in Melbourne. The meaning [00:29:30] to which Tay refers in that dense little contemporary reading, which you might have to read about three times to make sense of, is important today when we're enjoying having the GMO phones with us, and as we commemorate the struggle and in all too many cases, the deaths of transgendered people here and overseas, though this cross here at Saint Andrews is larger than life and imposing. Built in dark wood and shining with varnish, it is in fact, [00:30:00] an Iona cross. This echoes the spirituality of the Celts of Earth friendly organic spirituality with a grounded rooted quality. The circle at the centre of the cross symbolises wholeness, a completeness that comes when we achieve authenticity ourselves and in our relationships, a key word for a transgender day of any sort. Authenticity. The ultimate goal in the [00:30:30] search made through gender transitions. But the Christian Cross is one of many examples of the tree of life, and you may have seen many symbols of the tree of life. They often have a lot of branches at the root and a lot of branches, branches at the top and roots at the bottom. This one, also like that tree of life, connects Earth and what we call heaven. It keeps contact between our ordinary human [00:31:00] lives here in the mud and the joy of life, with the joy and love and lightness associated with the word heavenly. Years ago in Christchurch Cathedral, at a contemplative service, um, I was present and There was a little boy about this high who was sitting with his grandma. His grandma sat back in the shadows of the cathedral most of the time, um, not admitting her relationship with the little boy because he wandered around in this quiet, adult, contemplative [00:31:30] space. But when the, um when the choir stood every time the choir stood and they were in red roads, you see, so they made an impression he would go, and it was just delightful. I forgave him all the noises he was making every time he went like that. And it made me think of this, the cross rising up like that and yet at the same time, being rooted in reality and the horizontal bar of the cross is like arms stretched wide open and an accepting, loving [00:32:00] embrace wide enough for the whole world to be included. But even more than the loving wide embrace, the cross can also be seen as one person. And Jesus is the Christian example of this stretching wide to hold the opposites of our life together to keep the lovers and the haters in dialogue to keep those who suffer in the circle to keep male and female, connected for as a female makes the transition to male and vice versa. They find [00:32:30] that still within is the other. It is not rejecting one for the other, but embracing both, though each perhaps in a different proportion. And it's here that our wholeness is forged here in the intersection of our ground, our grounded and our lightness here in our holding together of the opposites that are inevitable in our human existence. And the Iona Cross gives us that [00:33:00] symbol, above all, cross shapes with the circle of tension and struggle right at the intersection of those two continuum. And for some of us, there are not only two continuum crossing each other at that point of struggle. But there's multiple continuum as we deal with being lover, sister, brother, wife, husband, colleague, friend and much more. Some suggest that the circle at the heart of a Celtic cross comes [00:33:30] from the pagan symbol of the sun God and supremely, that suggests all our lives are crucibles, in which we are being formed and refined more and more into our true likeness into wholeness and authenticity. For Christians, the cross is a reminder that Jesus knows about. See, I mentioned Jesus knows about pain and struggle and is with us in solidarity in so many of those dark [00:34:00] moments of our lives. It's no wonder that it's hard work, sometimes simply being human, that it's hard work transitioning our mode of being human, that it is hard work coming out and being true to yourself. You have to be brave. It's no wonder that life expectancy for trans people can be as low as 35 years in the Americas. [00:34:30] Even worse, if you're a person of colour, for when we deal with all these changes and rearrangements and returns to ourselves, we are making ourselves. We are holding opposites together. Intention. So let's make that tension a loving, creative one, so we can all grow from it. When we do that, we are doing God work and thank God. There are moments, sometimes [00:35:00] even within the struggle, when we experience the joy of being fully alive because we have endured the struggle. That's what Christianity is about, not a triumphal waving of a dominating cross symbol of pain and torture to keep victims down. It's about a cross that shows us all standing tall, and proud on this earth and holding opposites together in tension. It's about loving ourselves as we are. [00:35:30] It's about loving others enough to die for the right if needed, like Jesus did. And for most of us, it's about living well here and now. So the good and the right and the tolerance and intolerance and justice will flourish here on the earth for all of us. A space of quiet. [00:36:00] So may it be, I mean, so we have candles here to spread the light and to commemorate those who have died and those that we wish to remember who are struggling. And so you're invited to come up if you wish. And light candles. [00:36:30] Um, if anyone wants to say anything briefly, you could come and speak from here as you light your candle. Uh, and towards the, um, at the beginning, the offering baskets are going to be placed on a couple of chairs at the front here. And so those who are used to giving the offering on a Sunday you can just put your offering in there. And if you're not used to it, Well, um, this is a free experience for you. Uh, And then towards [00:37:00] the end, the glamour phones will have gathered at the back and they will sing, uh, send in the clowns for us as part of the commemoration. So I will spread the light to the tables, and then let's remember those who need to be remembered [00:37:30] just while you're all lighting the candles. Um, I'd just like to say a few words to acknowledge, um, this is our third year of holding the service at Saint Andrews. And this year, for the transgender community, it's a lot more real, because, um, we've lost quite a number of, um, well known people in our community, uh, for various reasons. And [00:38:00] I'd like to start off by acknowledging, uh, Zea Campbell, whose family is with us today, um, whose uh, life was tragically taken from us at such a young age and so early in their transition. Um, we had a memorial for Zeena earlier this year in the square. Um, we've also lost two of our older members [00:38:30] of the community a Dana and Jenny. Um, and again, people may not understand that even though they were older, they died before their time. Um, they were pioneers. Oh, which is, and Shelly Shey Howard. Um, the first generation of people to go through a medical transition were [00:39:00] kind of guinea pigs. And there were a lot of side effects from those, um, protocols, shall we say? And that was behind. As I understand it, the terminal illnesses that, um, that they got, and that's something that affects that generation of trans people. And we almost lost another one of our icons. Um, thankfully, they're still with us. And, um, just on a personal note, I'd like to acknowledge I'm not going to name them, but, um, [00:39:30] I was quite shocked to find out just over a week ago, um, a fellow transgender activist that I'd got to know this year, um, apparently committed suicide. So yes, for me, particularly this year, is quite a poignant transgender day of remembrance service, but I'd like to thank the community for turning out and the glamour phones again for coming along and supporting us. Thank you very much. [00:40:00] I wish to remember not only a transgender grandchild, but the mother of that child who is finding it so hard to come to terms with what has happened. And so I would pray too for the parents of all transgender Children. [00:40:30] Yeah. [00:41:00] [00:41:30] [00:42:00] [00:42:30] Yes, [00:43:00] [00:43:30] those. [00:44:00] [00:44:30] They're offering prayers in the order of service. We light these candles so that we remember those who have died or been killed for who they are. We sing into [00:45:00] the darkness and the hope light will spread beyond these walls. We bring this money so this church continues to be able to spread its message of love and acceptance. We bring this food for those who do not have enough make candles and song money and food being able to do their work. Well, Amen. And let's indeed thank [00:45:30] the Glaber phones for their gift of soul. And just to alert people if you hadn't already recognised her. Geordi Georgina Baer is with us today fresh from her triumphs in Oxford and Cambridge, Oxford and Cambridge. And, uh, it's love. It's really wonderful to have you here. Thank you. [00:46:00] And the rest of you are all here too wonderful. And now we're going to pray. Let us pray. Our mother and father beloved parents. We gather as an inclusive community to recognise and remember those for whom rejection is a more frequent experience than welcome. We remember all the trans people in our community, [00:46:30] our country and the world. May they be for each person, at least one other who loves them unconditionally. Our thoughts are also with the families of transgender parents, uh, transgender people that their love can indeed know no bounds and be unconditional. May they find the strength to support their loved ones through everything we recognise the teachings of Jesus that God's love is for all. May we in Saint [00:47:00] Andrews and in our lives continue to draw our circle wide, so that, indeed all people are welcome in this place. We give thanks and say Ah, for the talents of the glamour phones who also count the space as their home. We are blessed to experience their talents as well as share the space we think today. Of all the people in our community struggling to live a whole life, those [00:47:30] coming to terms with identity and sexuality, those struggling with health, mental health and physical health, those struggling to find work and those with work who are still struggling to make ends meet, we celebrate the changes that have been made and recognise that much more is needed Before we can truly call this God's own country. We think of the people in the book, and we pray [00:48:00] for Melissa and her wife, Daria, and their Children. As Melissa is recovering from a heart attack in our circle of prayer today, we think of the people of Kazakhstan, and we pray for the dialogue between Muslims, Christians and Jews in Kazakhstan and throughout the world. In New Zealand, we remember those in Parliament and today we name Marama Davidson and Christopher Finlayson list MP S. Here in the Central Presbytery. We [00:48:30] pray for the leaders and people of Saint David's Union Church in Carterton. And as we move out from here, let us take the wonderful words from the song the gleno sang this morning. And indeed, let us go forth and be brave and let those words fall out ask you to join me in this prayer for Saint Andrews. If this is not your regular community, please make this prayer for your community as well as for ours. Renew your people God [00:49:00] and renew our life in this place. Give us a new spirit of unity with all who follow Christ and a new spirit of love towards all people bless the city in which we live that it may be a place where honest dealing, good government, the desire for beauty and the care for others flourish. Bless this church. That what we know of your [00:49:30] will may become what we do and what we believe. The strong impulse of our worship and work. Amen. [00:50:00] [00:50:30] [00:51:00] [00:51:30] [00:52:00] We have sung and prayed. We [00:52:30] have laughed and cry. We are all wonderful beings on the wonderful planet. Thanks be given for all of this. Let us go now and continue to make the world an even better place in which to live and play, pray and laugh, love and work.

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TITLE: Sara Fraser talks about the Queer Avengers
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VOICES: Sara Fraser
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
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DATE: 1 September 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Sara Fraser talks about the history of the Queer Avengers and some of its activities. The group was formed in Wellington in 2011 and was committed to stopping sexual orientation and gender identity discrimination through social and political means.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: The Queer Avengers came from the queer the night march that was held in June in 2011. Um, we had a massive turnout for that. I wasn't involved in the organising of that. I was just an attendee to it. Um, but it was a response to a number of incidents that had happened, um, homophobic, violent attacks against people in and around the Wellington region. And, um, a group of people wanted to get together and say that's not acceptable. We want to do something about this. [00:00:30] And I think probably about 600 Wellingtons turned out, which is pretty impressive for a freezing cold middle of winter night. And, um, we made our way from Oh, now I forgot the name of it's gone for me. That park down by Papa. Uh, not not quite Waitangi Park, but that general area, anyway. And, um, up to Courtney Place and along to, um, Cuba Street, where we had some guest speakers and [00:01:00] stuff. And then, um, there was a feeling that people wanted stuff to keep happening and they didn't want it just to be a one off event. So the following Thursday, um, the people who had organised the march had arranged for people to get together at the trade Union Hall on Vivian Street. And again, a massive turnout there must have been The whole foyer was filled with standing room only. So there must have been close to 60 70 people in there, which was amazing. [00:01:30] And, um, from that the crew Avengers grew out of that, we kept meeting weekly, um, to really have a voice give a voice to people who felt that well, Wellington was not a safe space for them at the time and wanted to do something about that. But of course, from that developed a lot more actions and stuff, but yeah, just initially, it was just a response to the unsafeness of Wellington [00:02:00] and people wanting to have a space to get together and try and do something about that. Do you have any idea as to why it was unsafe for queer communities around the 2010, 2011 period? Not particularly? No, it was just I don't know. It was just for some reason whether I don't know if anyone ever got arrested or caught in response to it or anything like that. I don't know if it was a group of people doing [00:02:30] it repeatedly or different individuals. I have no idea. But for some reason, they just happened to be a spate over a short period of time of people getting attacked, going home from the gay bars and just going about their daily business and and, uh particularly, um, trans people, Um, but, you know, that's not changed. It's still an unsafe space for trans people. So right, Yeah. I don't know why if there was any particular reason [00:03:00] why that was the particular period that it happened Or maybe it's just that the media was paying attention to it more at the time, and so we were more aware, aware of it happening. So maybe that was the reason behind it. Rather, rather than, you know, maybe it still does happen. It's just we don't hear about it the same way. Maybe people are too fearful to report it. Or, you know, who knows? Yeah, II, I guess. Just thinking of the media because this was also at the time when things like Social Media [00:03:30] was just starting out. And so yeah, that's true. Yeah, I guess maybe people were more connected in some way. Yeah, that would That would have played a part for sure. Yeah. Where did the name Queer Avengers come from? That is one of our, um, moments of, um, pride and joy, because, um, it took us a long time actually to come to that name. And, um because the way the group operated, we were very, um [00:04:00] there was no leaders, no hierarchy within the group. We wanted to make sure that that was a thing right from the get go. And we just discussed it over a several week period, several weeks, and, um, it just we just came up with it. There's all sorts of strange things thrown around, all sorts of funny things thrown around and silly things and completely inappropriate things. I think maybe there was an Avengers movie on or something. And it Yeah, it just [00:04:30] it rose up by itself, I guess. Yeah, which was kind of nice. And you were saying that, uh, there was no hierarchy. Can you describe, um, how the group was structured, How did and and how you came to that kind of structure? Well, the meetings just we would sit down, um, in a circle for our meetings. We have in a in a space. We'd sit around in chairs and someone would either say, Oh, I'll chair tonight or we you know, can you can you chair tonight? Um, and then [00:05:00] someone else would, um, keep an eye on it would just, you know, you put if you wanted to say something, put your hand up because we were We know at the early stages we were having 30 or 40 people turn up. So there's a lot of people to try and monitor and get to allow because we wanted everyone. Often when people get together, that number of people, you'll get two or three voices that take over. But we wanted to make sure that everybody had an opportunity to to speak. So, um, one person would be cheering and another person would be taking [00:05:30] note of people putting their hands up. So try and stick to some kind of reasonable order, and, um, it just worked. We just It was just something that we we wanted it to work, and it it just did. And it was really useful for us because it meant that Everybody got to say, Say something. But it also meant that people felt they could, but they were more engaged. If you could go along to something like that and you knew you would be given a space to be heard, [00:06:00] you'd want to keep coming back. Because if you go somewhere and you get shut down all the time or you never get a chance to speak, you get fed up with that after a while. And we were having a lot of young people coming along, so I think that was quite a powerful thing. I hope it was a powerful thing for them to experience that that that you can run a run a group like that without having someone being the main speaker or taking charge all the time or yeah, and [00:06:30] you're You're saying that you know, 30 40 people turning up That suggests to me that actually, a lot of people felt that they weren't being heard or that they didn't have a voice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And actually, it's kind of interesting because I have heard over the last sort of year or so more people saying they wish crew Avengers were still going because they feel that our voices have been taken away again, especially around, um, trans issues and writes for, um, queers of colour. And you know, [00:07:00] that kind of stuff. And it's because Wellington is small, but there's nowhere to be angry safe at the moment. I don't think because you should, you know, you've got everyone's got a right to be angry, but you need to be to do so in a safe space. Yeah. Can you describe the membership of Queer Avengers? Because, uh, I mean, you've said that, you know, there were some youth coming along, but I'm also aware that there were kind of veteran [00:07:30] activists as well. What was the makeup of of the Queer Avengers? Well, yeah, the age group ranged from I think our youngest is about 13 or 14 for a little bit, right through to 6. 60 plus. And, um, again, I think it was just because we'd made it such AAA. We intentionally made sure it was a safe space and a space where everybody could be heard. And so, in doing that, you could then encourage [00:08:00] everybody would feel safe and welcome there, So yeah, the def. Definitely. We had a lot of, um, veteran activists and, um, people who organised stuff before, but, yeah, a lot of school school. I think the school age people were coming in because, um, some of our members were involved with schools out, and so they heard about career Avengers through schools out, and they came along [00:08:30] and they found us a place where they could be who they wanted to be being. I think the ability to give young people that space to be who they are or just hang out in a space where they can start to learn about themselves. I think it's quite valuable, which is, you know, I mean schools that does that anyway, But we were sort of a extension of that in some some respects, a politicised arm, sort of. [00:09:00] And can you could, um, give me some examples of why people were coming along to the Queer Avengers. Well, I just think it was because they wanted a space where they could talk about the stuff that was happening in their lives. I mean, a lot of the stuff we did, it was around schools, safe school spaces, but also the workplace as well being out at work and that kind of thing. So I think people [00:09:30] were just coming along because there was nothing. There was nowhere else like it. There was nothing else like it at the time. And I'd go so far as to say in New Zealand, even never mind just Wellington. And obviously it fed a need at the time. There was a lot of, um, things going on in the community. There's a lot of changes going on, I think, in the Queer communities, Um, there was, you know, the talk about marriage, [00:10:00] equality and trans rights and lack of spaces that weren't bars, that kind of thing. And so I think we just filled some of those gaps and people just people were fed up with being marginalised. I think, too. And so they felt that Queer Avengers was a place to try and correct that or challenge [00:10:30] that. Yeah. And when you say marginalised, are we talking about being marginalised from the, um, kind of straight community? Or is this kind of marginalisation actually within queer communities as well? Yeah, I think Both. Definitely. Yeah, because and I mean, I think it still happens today unless you go into a bar, there's not really a lot of queer spaces. Staying out will be the only other one that really that springs [00:11:00] to mind. That's not and doesn't involve drinking. And, um I mean, you know, you look back historically at pride events and things like that. There were protests. They were actions against people trying to stop us being who we are and that all disappeared over the over the years. So people wanted a space where [00:11:30] they could come and say, Actually, this just happened to me at school, and I'm not happy about it, and I don't know what to do about it. So can we do something about it as a group? That strength in numbers stuff? I suppose so, Yeah, which actually brings us on to the the first campaign of the Queer Avengers, which was the queer our schools. Can you tell me about that? Yeah, that was, um I mean, that was an [00:12:00] an initiative that was driven by the young people that were coming to us because they were They were. They were turning up and saying, Look, I'm I'm I'm getting harassed at school. I can't be myself at school or there's no space for me to be safe at school. And it's not right. And, um, schools were saying, Oh, no, there's no queer people at our schools. There's no gay people at our schools And we knew that that, you know, that that was a load of rubbish. It was only because you weren't providing a safe space for [00:12:30] people, so people weren't outing themselves at your school. So, um, a lot of the policy then and I think it's still the same today was to approach the individual schools, talk to the boards. But we didn't feel that that was enough. Because if you go to a, um, say a Christian school, they're not gonna want to pay attention or want to change things to allow [00:13:00] a safe space for students in their school that might not identify as straight. So if you're just leaving it up to the board of trustees, nothing's gonna change. So what we wanted to do was to get the Ministry of Education to say, actually, bullying within our schools, not providing a safe space for youth is a problem, and we're gonna make changes so that all schools have to follow those changes. Because we did, we felt that it wasn't [00:13:30] right to just leave it up to the board of trustees who may or may not agree with what we're saying. And, you know, a lot of schools said, Oh, we have bullying policies we don't tolerate. We have zero tolerance towards bullying, but queer bullying bullying for being trans is is really different. It's often because you know, if you're gonna report that you're being bullied because you're Trans, you have to out [00:14:00] yourself. You shouldn't have to do that if you're not ready to do that, so you're putting it on. The onus on the person who's being attacked rather than the bully is so, yeah, it was important that they recognise schools, recognised that just by having because, you know, the bullying could happen from the teachers as well. It wasn't just the other kids in the schools, so we felt it was important that the Ministry of Education had a blanket policy [00:14:30] that would not only recognise everyday bullying but transphobic homophobic bullying in their schools as well. And how did the ministry respond? Not in the way we wanted them to they they We made a lot of noise outside their office and, um, myself and one of the other members took a letter to them. But the, um I can't even remember [00:15:00] who it was we wanted to meet with Wouldn't meet with us, but we handed over the letter anyway. Looking at it now, I think maybe we helped. Maybe we helped start conversations. I don't think schools are as safe still as safe as they could be, but they're certainly a lot better, because we, uh one of the other things that we wanted as well was to have schools introduce, um the language and [00:15:30] start teaching kids about not teaching. That's not the right word, but just to have history. You know, the young people were saying, We want to learn about our history. There's a lot of stuff that has happened in the world historically about queer activism, and they don't hear about anything about it in the classroom. They wanted to learn about that as well as the other stuff that they learned about. There was no talk of, um and, you know, in the sex ed classes, [00:16:00] if you were lucky enough to be in school that had sex ed classes. There was no talk of conversation around healthy relationships, healthy sexual encounters from a, um, LGBTI perspective. So we wanted that to be included as well. So yeah, but I don't think I don't think that's changed so much. Although a lot more schools have, um, the strait alliances now, which is good. I don't know II. I doubt that's come specifically [00:16:30] from the actions that we took. But as I say, I hope that maybe we could. We started conversations and people started to think about the fact that you have the The school schools are full of everybody, all kinds of different people. And whether someone's told whether you know you think you've got queer people in your school or not is irrelevant because they're there. They just don't feel safe coming out. And why should they have to? But if you make a school, [00:17:00] if you have a school that is welcoming and safe for everybody, then those kids are going to feel more empowered and more comfortable. And we'll get a better education in the long run, too, because they're not constantly fighting bullies or feeling terrorised or not. wanting to go to school. They'll feel part of the school like everybody else. And so, you know, they get a better education as well. Shortly after the, uh, queer Avengers was formed, [00:17:30] Um, uh, the the group also took part in the transgender day of remembrance. And I'm just looking at the news item from 2011 here, where it said internationally there were at least 221 deaths. Um, related to hate crimes around gender identity, Um, just shocking statistics. Yeah, horrible. Just horrible. And, um, the difficulty is they are that often doesn't get recorded when someone is, [00:18:00] um, murdered. If someone is, um, pre surgery and they're murdered, they probably get recorded as their birth gender. So the number of people who are gender diverse or trans who are murdered it's probably way more than we even realise, because people sometimes people, they're not very out in their lives. So there's other people around them who may not have known had any idea of their trans identity. [00:18:30] So they, you know, Yeah, it's a mess. It's horrible. And it's it's not changing any time soon. From what I can see. Well, somebody that was kind of fueling, um, some really nasty stuff going on at the time. Uh, locally was, um, columnist Rosemary McLeod, um, in Wellington. And I think it was 2012 where she, uh, wrote a really transphobic column. Um, [00:19:00] and the Queer Avengers protested her. Yeah, Yeah, we did. Yeah. We, um, occupied Dominion Post, um, building on street. Yeah, that was really interesting, because, um, what she wrote was absolutely disgusting. But the Dominion post response to it was Oh, well, it's just an opinion piece. It's her opinion. They didn't have to publish it. So by publishing it, they're taking her opinion. They're agreeing with her [00:19:30] opinion, and they're giving space to they. I mean, the opinion pieces are problematic anyway, because you you very rarely get an opportunity to have the opposite side expressed. Whereas you would hope with good journalism that you at least get the opportunity. So there was There was none of that. She wrote her vile piece, and it was disgusting. And, um, yeah, we actually that action took place really quickly because I think the the piece was published on the Thursday [00:20:00] and we were protesting on the Friday And, um, we got a good turnout and made a lot of noise in the in the foyer. And but actually, I think from that, we managed to get a couple of opinion pieces published that were, um, a lot more positive, but that wouldn't be hard because there was nothing positive about what Rosemary Cloud had to say at all. But yeah, I think they manage. We've managed to get a couple of, um, opposite opposite viewpoints [00:20:30] put across. But you know, someone with a following like her people aren't gonna read what? What? Just some bunch of you're both in opposition to what she said, but yeah, but The Dominion Post has been problematic and stuff for a long time with the language they use, particularly relating to trans people. And we've challenged [00:21:00] them often on it. And some of us still do, you know, And you know, it's That's one of the other things about social media. It's much easier to do that these days. So and this is things like using the wrong pronouns. Yeah, yeah. Using incorrect pronouns and dead names and stuff like that, Yeah, it's just it's just a complete lack of respect for some for an individual. Um, and it it fuels people's [00:21:30] argument that, um, you know, there's there's a small number of people that still believe that you are what you are born as and you can't change it. So having people publish an article using a dead name or previous genders misgender someone that only just continues to feel that belief Can you describe for me um, what [00:22:00] it's like when you read something like Rosie Rosemary McLeod's article? How do um how do you react to that kind of thing? Um, I get angry, and I think, uh, you know, for some I'm I'm a woman. So if it makes me angry, I don't know what it would do to someone who was Trans. But also, I feel, [00:22:30] too, that it's my responsibility to fight back against that. It's not up to trans people to have to fight that ugly fight all the time. They've got enough going on in their lives. So I think it's up to people to show support to trans people, to be allies, and so to hit back at that kind of stuff. When you see that kind of thing to step up because you know it. Also, it shows that, um how can I put it? It's [00:23:00] It's more about acceptance. So if more and more people say they don't have any issue with trans people, then hopefully the playing field for trans people gets safer and gets better, and they can feel more accepted and can participate in life because they know there's more people out there that don't have an issue. Don't have any concerns with how they want to live their lives. Yeah, and but yeah, that really mean Rosemary I? I don't [00:23:30] read her anymore. She makes me angry. Full stop. But yeah. How did the, um, public, um, respond to the Queer Avengers? Protests like like like outside the Dominion post. How? How? How was How were you doing? Oh, I would I. I hope that most people were supportive of what we were doing, particularly in the Queer Communities. But I think sometimes we upset a lot of people, particularly around the marriage equality stuff. We upset a lot of [00:24:00] people. Um, they gave us more power than what we really had. Um, you know, some some people within the queer community, So we were really supportive of what we were doing and really pleased with what we were doing and recognised that what we were doing there was a space for for it. But, um, yeah, many people didn't support it. And how was that, uh, nonsupport shown? [00:24:30] Oh, that's a good question. I think more of it was just rumblings that we heard people saying, Oh, you know so and so such and such backward Avengers last week. Or although there was a couple of times that, um, people hit back at us, Um, because we we were quite good at getting We had quite a good, um, team of people to, um, write [00:25:00] bits for papers for the newspaper and stuff. So we were quite good at putting out a press release and having it, um, published more widely outside of just, you know, not just within queer newspapers and queer stuff online. So that was quite interesting. So, yeah, sometimes there were occasions where we got hit back at, um, one I particularly remember was around, um, one of the All Blacks calling being homophobic, and we called him out on it. And was [00:25:30] it? Yeah, I think so. He was or something. Yeah, I can't remember exactly. People, I think that particular one What I found funny about it was that a lot of people in New Zealand really get upset if you criticise the All Blacks. So a lot of the fact that we wore over that was because, like, you can't talk about it about like like that about our All blacks, their pressure. Stop it. You'll be me. [00:26:00] Which of course only makes us laugh and fuels us even more. But yeah, I think it you know it. There's always gonna be people who disagree. But if you can have a conversation, if you can start a conversation, if someone at work who is closeted can go to work and say, Oh, did you see what that happened? And talk to other people and realise that the other people actually are on their side? Then maybe they can feel a bit [00:26:30] more safe or a bit more comfortable at work because it's not quite as bad as they initially felt or you know the opposite. Everyone goes here bloody or whatever, then they they know that hiding then that they're in the wrong workplace and that you know? Yeah. I don't know. Another high profile, uh, action was the glitter bombing of, um, Jermaine Greer, one of my favourite. Like, can you give [00:27:00] me some background and then talk about the event? Um, Germaine Greer, where do you start with someone like Germaine Greer? Um, was she when you heard she was coming here for the, um, readers and Writers Week. And, um, I just suggested one night at one of our meetings that we should go, and from that it grew, but yeah, Jermaine Grier has a history of transphobia she has [00:27:30] out of people in their work life, which is never appropriate. Uh, no one, particularly straight, says people have any right to out trans people, um, or anybody for that matter. But anyway, Germaine Greer, for some reason, feels that she has the right to do that. She's written many, um, nasty pieces about trans people and is very [00:28:00] Oh, it's she's just nasty. She says really uses really awful language and feels a lot of hatred. So, um, we decided that we would take some action when she while she was here, and we had a lot of planning around it and a lot of discussion on what we do, we would do. And at the time, there'd been a lot of glitter bombing happening, particularly in the US. So we thought, Right, Well, we're gonna give this a go. Can you just describe what glitter bowling is? Sure. Oh, yeah, sure. It's when, [00:28:30] um, someone who is homophobic or transphobic um, they're in a public space and, um, some activists will throw glitter over them. Um, not probably not such a good thing to do these days, given what we know more about glitter now, but I believe you can get some more planet friendly glitter as well, so it can continue. But it hasn't been done for a while. I'm not sure what happened there, but anyway, so yeah, that's that's all. Glitter bombing is to throw glitter over someone in a public space because glitter [00:29:00] has always been. I have no idea why a thing that has been big in communities historically speaking. Yeah, but I guess it's just it's just that sparkly, fun, glittery kind of thing to do to someone who appears to not want to have any of that in their life. So it's quite entertaining to throw it at them. So, yeah, um, [00:29:30] we decided we were quite I mean, a lot of it is funny when you look back on it and probably quite ridiculous. But at the time, we we were very careful about it. So we, um we discussed it at in our meetings as doing the housework, just in case anyone was bugging us and listening because, you know, we were we were, for all intents and purposes, breaking the law. Um, and we had a lot of the a lot of the, um school kids were like, Oh, yeah, I'm gonna do it, I wanna do it. But [00:30:00] we were really sure that we didn't involve them, because if we were to get into any kind of legal issues, we didn't want to involve the the young kids. So the we the date came around. We, um one of our members bought some tickets, and three of us went in to hear the lecture beforehand. And, um, one of our members stood up and challenged, um, Jermaine [00:30:30] in the, um in the panel discussion that she was having. She was talking. It was really strange because the discussion was about ageing. And, um, she was I don't like it when people don't want to challenge me anymore because they think I'm a frail little old lady. But then the argument was used against us for attacking a frail little old lady. But anyway, um, so, yeah, she challenged, um, Jermaine during the discussion. And, you [00:31:00] know, she Oh, that was years ago. And the woman was out already and been and gone, and I tried to brush it off, but And what? That particular incident might have been historical, but it hasn't. She still continues to be transphobic to this day. And then afterwards, there was the, um, obligatory book signing. So we were standing in line for that, waiting to get up to that. I had, um, some glitter and a coffee cup, [00:31:30] and, um, my cohort kay, she had some as well, and we had another member up in front of us. So she put the book down to be signed, and then we came up behind her, and she was signing it. We shouted at her Transphobia is bullshit. And we use that word specifically because she had been, um, barred from being able to, um Come to New Zealand because she'd used the word bullshit back earlier in her career. I think maybe in the seventies [00:32:00] or eighties, so we, you know, we wanted to play on that. We wanted to throw her words back in her face as well as the glitter, and she was absolutely horrified she couldn't believe it. And she accused us of being men. And, um, she stopped the book signing right then and there got up and left Whis whisked out the door by security. But the look on her face there's a photo still out there on [00:32:30] the Interwebs is absolutely priceless. I love it. Actually, I should really print a copy of it out and keep it because it's just she was, I think I think what appalled her more was something like that could happen to her rather than the transphobia that we were heading back at. I think she felt that she was such an I, a feminist icon, that no one would possibly attack her in such a terrible way, and the only people that could possibly do such a thing would have to be [00:33:00] men. But the the the funny thing was that she um left New Zealand pretty much straight after and thought that would that would be it. She would leave it, leave the incident behind and never have to deal with it again. Well, it followed her around the world. The story got mentioned in Indian media Australia, America, the UK. Just it. It went international. And so by the time her plane would have landed in the UK, everyone [00:33:30] knew about it there as well. So I'm sure that didn't That didn't go down very well for her. She thought she could leave it behind, but far from it. But she she just she continues with her vial to this day, she's horrible. Yeah, which brings us on to that, um, acronym turfs. Um, can you explain to me what turfs means, what it stands [00:34:00] for? It stands for trans exclusionary, radical feminist, and it is a term that is used. I'm not sure who coined it where it came from. I'm sure that's out there somewhere, but it's used to, um, describe someone who believes that there is no that trans people do not exist, that you cannot change your assigned gender and, um, that, particularly [00:34:30] trans women do not belong in, um, feminist spaces do not belong in women's spaces. Certainly have no right to call themselves lesbian. Yeah, and in the New Zealand context, How How is that playing out like now? Well, it's kind of interesting. Um, they're getting a lot of publicity at the moment, but it's a really small group we have decided or not decided [00:35:00] we have. We think that they've made connections with the group in the UK, which is quite large, and so they're feeding off them and getting support from them. But there's the turf. There's been a lot of turf, um, activity. There's been posters put up stickers being put up generally, um, turfs are also SWFs, which is sex worker, exclusionary, radical feminists. So there's a lot of hit back against, [00:35:30] um, sex workers as well from the same people. So there's been there's been a campaign just recently, people putting up stickers around the place, um, anti trans stuff. I mean, the the thing that I find ironic is that a lot of the turfs are treating trans women the same way they were treated back in the early days of you know, the seventies, when women were being excluded [00:36:00] from a lot of stuff and my feminism rose again. So it's kind of interesting, but there's also a feeling out there. Some people genuinely believe that some men will go to the great extent of transitioning just in order to infiltrate women's spaces and feminism, which I cannot get my head around at all. I don't and and I. I really don't understand why they feel someone would do that. [00:36:30] It's nuts. The, um, two news items I can think of. That's that that that's happened in the last couple of months. One was, um, the the the, uh, trans exclusion from a woman's gym here in Wellington, Um, but also the, uh, proposed legislation going through Parliament at the moment in terms of, um, people able to self-identity the gender on identity documents like birth certificates and and passports. [00:37:00] Um uh, are there other? Are you aware of other kind of, um issues in the media that, um, have been related to this? There's not. It's There's not one issue, other issues going on. It's not getting a lot of media, and that's, um, the business of, um, medical history and and, um, outing yourself on medical forms. It's to do with the, um, ID I. I [00:37:30] didn't I can't remember what it stands for now, but it's something that's used within the health system to identify people. And at first glance you think, Oh, that's probably quite a good idea, but actually outing yourself in that manner. You don't know who's behind the door, right? So you could fill out a form. And you could say, I'm I identify as lesbian, and I'm transgender pre-op or whatever. [00:38:00] You don't know that the people that you're gonna be dealing with on the other side of that paperwork are Are you gonna want to have anything to do with you or B treat you as a human being because there's a lot of trans people who can't access health care in a meaningful manner because a doctor or a nurse will look at them and see their whole problem as being Trans. You've got a broken leg or because you're [00:38:30] Trans. I know that's a bit of a, but it's, you know, it's like that. They can't just go in and get the health care they need for a cold, or they keep getting headaches or whatever without it being related to or the, uh, the, you know, the person on the other end is completely transphobic and won't support them with the medical care that they need. Won't support them with being able to access the, um, medication that they need to, you know, the hormone treatment and [00:39:00] and stuff. So, yeah, but that's not getting much media coverage. It's just been a, um, select committee hearing about it. But it was only, um, written submissions, which is kind of interesting, but yeah, I don't I don't know an awful lot about that. Can you recall when you first heard, like the term turf? I mean, what what? How far back does this go? Um, [00:39:30] I heard it's only I've only heard it relatively recently. Maybe five years at the very most. But maybe even that might be a bit of a stretch. Yeah, I'm sure if I looked it up on the Internet, I could find out where it originated from. I don't know who coined the phrase where it's come from, but it seems to be quite new in the daily lexicon. And I mean, I'd imagine that it's probably just something that is understood within queer communities. If you used it in that rest [00:40:00] of the world, they probably wouldn't have a clue. Most people wouldn't even know what transgender means. Never mind what using the term tofu is about. But, you know, having said that, there's also a lot of people in the queer community who it's new to them as well. So yeah, it does appear to be quite a new terminology. Just coming back to something you were saying earlier, Um, in terms of describing some of the actions you've taken particularly like things like the Jemaine Greer Glitter bombing, where it was [00:40:30] a, um, entertaining action. Um, and I was thinking actions can be, you know, um, physical. They can be silent action, silent protests, entertaining. Uh, was that something that the queer Avengers thought about a lot in terms of, uh, wanting to, um, only do a certain type of action or No, I don't think so. Um, I think the glitter bombing came up because, [00:41:00] as I said, you know, there'd been a few of them over in the States and had been reported in the media. I think we were more about performing an action rather than writing letters. That's just the way we we wanted to operate because there's enough organisations out there who will sit down and write the letters and, um, petition the MP S and all that kind of stuff. But we felt [00:41:30] it that we wanted to be more of an action group because, you know, you do get coverage. And so, as I've said, you know, people start to talk about what you're doing, Why are you doing that? And hopefully that helps people to have more of an understanding and have more of an acceptance of the queer and trans people in their lives. [00:42:00] Well, one of the actions that got quite a lot of attention was, um, and prompted a lot of debate was when the Queer Avengers, um, were talking about marriage equality and saying that there's actually more. Let's go beyond marriage laws, you know, highlighting the limitations of both marriage and the adoption laws. Um, tell me, how was that received within the, um, kind of rainbow community who was kind of pushing for marriage? That [00:42:30] was probably one of our biggest campaigns that was most disliked? Um, yeah. Uh, people were terrified that what we would do would result in the bill not being passed. Um, you know, I said earlier that people gave us more power than what we had to think that a group of people like us could stop a bill like that from going through was quite ridiculous. But [00:43:00] so, yeah, we got a lot of kickback from within the community about, um, about what we were doing. You know, we we said on multiple occasions that we were in support of the bill, but at the same time, it's not gonna fix everything we wanted people to, because when people were saying that there were a lot of people saying, Oh, well, once we get marriage equality, that's it. We've got it all. Well, that's rubbish. Um, you know, we were dealing with young people that were being still being thrown out of home. We were dealing [00:43:30] with people who were losing their jobs because of their trans identity. Um, there's more. There's, you know, it's still not a safe world. And no matter how much we love Wellington, how much how progressive we think Wellington is. There are still people who are unsafe in this city. So We wanted to people to understand that, Yeah, it's great to have marriage equality, but that's not the end of it. There's more to it. We need to keep fighting. We need to keep [00:44:00] making sure our struggles are still being discussed and are still there at, you know, people are still aware of what of what it means to be queer. It's not just about, uh yeah, it's not just about marriage. I remember going to a really amazing conference that both the Queer Avengers and other groups like I think it was a campaign for marriage, equality [00:44:30] and legalised love. I can't remember the exact organisers, um, happened happened in Wellington, but it had the the the, um, wonderful work streams. So not only were people talking about how do we get marriage equality across the line, but also we had the queer Avengers saying, But hang on, there's more. Can you talk to me about how, um the queer Avengers have worked with these other organisations to, uh II, I guess. Put that conference on. [00:45:00] Um I don't know if we so much worked with them or is more we just told them we were gonna be there because genuinely people thought we would upset the system. We thought we we laughed about it. We said people genuinely think that we're gonna scare the horses. And if we make too much noise about other stuff that this bill is not gonna pass, people genuinely believe we could stop the bill passing, which is ridiculous. So I think, um, I think we [00:45:30] might have come up with some funding for that conference, which is what got us in the door. I can't really remember now, but we just wanted to make sure that again everybody's given a voice. Marriage is great, but not everybody wants it. So if you're just having a conference that's focusing on one thing, you're forgetting everybody else and you're not providing voice or space for everybody else. So we wanted to make sure that that was happening in that in that space as well that it wasn't just [00:46:00] the marriage that was being discussed so that the people who didn't don't want to get married or didn't agree with quite the terminology of the law felt that they weren't being left out by their own communities. I think that's probably fundamentally at the heart of what care Avengers was all about is making sure that everybody had the space to use their voice and to be heard [00:46:30] because it's so easy to forget. Even within marginalised groups, it's so easy to forget those who don't quite play the game the same way as you do or don't quite involve their lives or live their lives the same way as you do. So they get left behind. I mean, the perfect example that came out of the marriage. Equality was trans rights when we went to the I think you were there at the thing at Parliament on the Friday night. And, um, Marilyn, [00:47:00] is it not Marilyn wearing? Is it? What's her name? Oh gosh, how silly. Oh, Catherine, she she said. Trans people got left out of that change of the of the bill, so people get left out all the time. You can fight for rights for one group of people, but you leave somebody else out. So queer Avengers wanted to make sure that we weren't doing that we were making. We wanted to make sure that everybody that was affected by any kind of change or any kind of harassment [00:47:30] or bullying, that all people had an opportunity to to share their stories and to have their voices heard. So there's nobody was being left behind. Nobody was being left out. And when you say she, I think there was some former MP. Catherine O'Regan wasn't it with the Human Rights Amendment? So to have someone admit that someone in that kind of power and doing that to admit that yes, she was sorry. In hindsight, she shouldn't have left Trans people out. [00:48:00] That's a big, bloody deal, because that's a long time later. So imagine if they had included Trans people way back then how much different their lives might be today. I mean, there's no saying that it would be, but there's a great opportunity because those of us C, queer people, lesbians and gay men our lives have changed hugely since that period. So imagine the possibilities that could have happened for trans people as well if they'd been brought along. One of the other things I remember from that, uh, beyond [00:48:30] conference was that there seemed to be a real, um, push to have the campaign a mainstream campaign, so they only were showing kind of quota quotation marks, kind of acceptable couples. Um, and so anything other than that, um, was actually, um, kind of frowned upon. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And that that's again. It's it's it's leaving behind those people who don't fit what you think is the right, [00:49:00] uh, way of being. So some people have healthy, happy relationships where there's more than two people involved in it. Those people are as important as couples. Those people's lives have as much value as my life does with my wife, but they never they never Yeah, they they're not deemed. They're not looked upon. They're frowned upon as you say, so they [00:49:30] don't get included, they get excluded. And if we if we want the rest of the world to accept gay men and lesbians for who we are and to allow us just to get on and live our lives like we want, what right do we have to turn around and do the same to somebody else in our community? Because we don't quite think that that lifestyle is for us. Oh, that's not we. I couldn't possibly live in a relationship where there's more than two of us OK, well, that's my thing. It's not their thing, but it doesn't mean I have a right to trample on their [00:50:00] rights. They have as much right to exist and to be recognised in the law as the rest of us. And so, yeah, that's where a lot of that beyond marriage stuff was coming from was to make sure that there was a public discussion again about different ways of being. I think that Friday night with Catherine O'Regan was the first time I met Shelley, Howard and Shelley. Really staunch and just an amazing, um, advocate. [00:50:30] Yeah. Who? Um, now, Shelley passed away. Was it November 2017? Yeah, a huge loss to me personally, but also to our community. Shelley just wanted to be able to get on and be Shelley. That's all she ever wanted. She didn't. She never wanted to do a hormone treatment. She never wanted sex change or any of that stuff. [00:51:00] So in some people's eyes, I suppose they would see it just as a as a cross dresser. But she Shelley was more than that. And she called herself Trans because she she was trans. So I think I suppose From that perspective, her legacy would be just to be who you are. That was I mean, she would talk to the youth groups quite a lot. The trans transform and schools out and just [00:51:30] encourage those young people to live their best lives and just to be themselves. Because, you know, as I was saying earlier, everybody has a right. Doesn't just because somebody lives a different lifestyle to you, and you might not agree with it that you're entitled to not agree with it. Be not entitled to stop that person from existing. So I think that's Yeah. That's what Shelley was about. Just being Shelley herself, working hard, living hard, enjoying her life when [00:52:00] she when she wasn't working and also messing things up. She liked to stir. And I think that that's that's great. Yeah. Smashed the binary change, The paradigm with Shelley? Yeah, and a real fighter for, um uh, you know, against injustice. I mean, I remember Shelley. Um, we were protesting outside the Russian Embassy. Uh, a couple of years ago, I think. Was it for Chechnya? Well, [00:52:30] it was the chechnya the couple of years ago, but actually the queer Avengers um were protesting outside the Russian Embassy, um, a few years earlier, like in 2012, 2013. And it's interesting to me that, um, the Queer Avengers weren't just thinking about kind of local issues, national issues, but also international issues. Yeah, I think we recognise the fact that we could protest in our own backyard. We had that privilege and that [00:53:00] right to do so because we're protected under the law. So then the ability to do so against some countries where it's not legal to do that, where it's not possible to do that It was important to us to to show solidarity to those because, like the action against um outside the Russian Embassy, Um, there've been a lot of reports going on about, um, people being attacked in Russia for being queer. [00:53:30] And there's a group that had started up. I can't remember what they exactly called now, but it's a Russian, um, core activist group in Moscow, and we were in touch with them and that, but that we were following them on Facebook and engaging with them on Facebook, and there was a lot of stuff going down at the time. So we said, you know, we can do this. We can go and protest outside the embassy. Is that something that would be useful to you? Because we didn't feel that it would be a good idea [00:54:00] to go and highlight an issue back in Russia if they if it meant that they would get, um, more aggression against them. So we wanted to just check in with them and they were like, Yeah, that would be fantastic. So we did. We did the action outside the Russian Embassy, which was hilarious because they took our photos. All these guys came out from the embassy and stood behind the fence taking our photos. So yeah, whether we can ever get to Russia [00:54:30] or not, I don't know. I've never tried, but it just seemed a bit ridiculous. But yeah, we We were very conscious of the fact that we could do that kind of thing here in a where is not a lot. Whereas around the world, a lot of people can't do that. So we wanted to show solidarity for those people by doing those kind of actions and, um also in response in solidarity with stuff that happened in Australia. There was the incident at the, um, Mardi Gras with [00:55:00] the cops attacking, um, two gay guys at Mardi Gras. So we protested at the outside the Australian Embassy against that as well. Yeah. What in the US Embassy, Um, protesting against, uh, or protesting in solidarity with, um Chelsea man. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, it was just it was highlighting stuff. We wanted people because you Yeah, I, I suppose it comes back to [00:55:30] that thing where you can't just say it's all right in New Zealand. So who cares? Whatever happens overseas, not my problem. But it is our problem. It's all of our problems. And it was important for us to show solidarity. And, you know, um, what Chelsea Manning did. It was a huge thing internationally, and she got a lot of shit for it. And a lot of stuff that's was rubbish, you know, killed. Judith [00:56:00] Collins was on the TV just the other day saying what she did was wrong. It probably cost people's lives, but actually there's evidence to show that it didn't cost anybody's lives, but not only to support her for that, but to support her as a trans woman doing that because that took a lot of cuts to do both of those things under those conditions. Just give me a little bit of background on who Chelsea Manning is. OK? Chelsea Manning, Um, is what it used to be in the, um, [00:56:30] uh, armed services in the United States. I'm not gonna name her. Um, And during that time, she, um, released some information to wikileaks about, um, abuse by American soldiers against, um, people in Afghanistan and Iraq, I think might have that wrong, but anyway, abuse against prisoners of war. Basically [00:57:00] a pretty disgusting abuse, too, by that account. And, um rather than focusing on the fact of what she reported, they decided to throw her in jail because she was being unpatriotic. And then she went to jail. And then I think it was, um, Barack Obama. The president commuted her sentence. One of the last things he did, but she had served about seven or eight years. I think, and you know, it's still obviously causing her issues because she's trying to come to Australia and New Zealand at the moment to talk. [00:57:30] And there's discussions about whether she should be given a visa or not. Yesterday, Immigration New Zealand said that they would grant her a visa under special conditions. I think it was called a work visa or something. So the Queer Avengers were actually, um, doing that action around Chelsea Manning in 2013. Now it's five years later, and and obviously Chelsea is potentially coming to New Zealand in September of this year. Um, I guess [00:58:00] just on in reflection and and kind of, um, thinking back over those last five years, do you think things have changed for Rainbow Communities? Um, particularly in Wellington, Um, and I. I guess I'm kind of coming to, you know, the you know, the one the legacy of Queer Avengers. But also have things moved on. Wow, [00:58:30] that's a big question. Multiple questions, um, have things moved on. Part of me wants to say yes, but another part of me wants to say no. I think at the moment we was we we There's still lots to be fought for. Trans people are still treated like second class citizens. Some people won't recognise them at all, yet they still get attacked. They still [00:59:00] lose their jobs. They still get thrown out of home. They still can't access surgery. They still can't access fair and equal medical treatment. So from that aspect, no, nothing's changed. In fact, I would say quite potentially got worse in the five years, you know, they've got the only surgeon that was doing, um, gender reassignment has retired and nobody's replacing him, and there doesn't seem to be any [00:59:30] urgency to try and replace him. So that's, you know, that's only going to compound the problem that already existed of the huge waiting times. Um, from the point of view for gay and lesbians, I think I don't know if things have changed or if things are just settled. People [01:00:00] don't seem to be, I don't know, maybe it's a Wellington thing, people, because Wellington has always been a great city and that you can walk down the street completely different and nobody really bats an eyelid. Nobody seems to really bother. It's quite alternative. I mean, there's definitely some areas where it's not and it's things are still problematic. But I think on the whole I think maybe things are just settled rather than changed. That's how I would put it. But you know, I'm I'm involved with outer spaces. I'm on the board for outer spaces [01:00:30] and we've still got young people who struggle in their daily lives. So until that stops and until Trans people are just accepted, then no, there's still lots to to keep fighting for. And, you know, as I said, I said earlier, too, that those people have said to me recently that they miss Avengers or miss having something like that. Maybe in this current climate, with the likes of that orange buffoon [01:01:00] over in America. Yeah, and Theresa May in the UK. And who knows what's gonna happen with Scott Morrison? I think that climate, maybe things are going backwards a little bit. Um, I'd like to think that maybe it won't. Here in New Zealand, we've got a relatively good government at the moment, But there's one thing that I think might become more of an issue within the Rainbow Communities [01:01:30] is ageing our ageing population. We've got a lot of people who were rejected by their families back in the seventies and eighties, and now they're getting older and they've got no one and nothing. So what happens to them? There's no facilities no, you know, it's like the bullying in the schools. There's no there's no queer people living in these retirement homes. Well, actually, there probably is. It's just that you're not aware of them because they keep themselves hidden. [01:02:00] I and I've heard people talk about that, that they have to go back in the closet when they go into retirement homes, particularly because a lot of retirement homes in that in this country are run by religious organisations. And if you don't have a choice because you've got no family because your family rejected you, what do you do? So I think that might be might be becoming more of a an issue over the next decade or so. Mhm. And what about the legacy of Queer [01:02:30] Avengers? What do you think that will be? Oh dear, I don't know. Just to stand up and fight for who you are. You've got a right to exist, but at the same time, don't trample on other people's voices. Make sure that you empower everybody around you to have a right to speak and a right to exist and to be heard. I'd like to think that's what our legacy would be and And why did Queer Avengers stop? I think we just burnt [01:03:00] out. We just we did a lot and keeping that consistency going that level, I mean, to an extent, that level of anger, it's it's hard work. And I think we just burnt ourselves out. Really? Yeah. No other reason than that. I don't think. What did you get out of Queer Avengers? Personally? Friendship. I made a lot of good friends, but I learned a lot about myself [01:03:30] and about our communities and how we exist in the world and how you can challenge the status quo. And you can push back just because people say, Oh, no, you shouldn't do that. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't. You can push back and you can make a noise and that you might not change things overnight, But you might start a conversation or you might allow it. [01:04:00] Someone. Yeah, yeah, I just I don't know, I loved it. It was good. And I hope that people like Shelley, too, because Shelley was just learning to be herself when we started out, and she was coming along to the meetings that she could, and I hope that She got strength from being able to come to our meetings, and I hope a lot of a lot of people got strength by coming to our meetings. I hope that that's what happened. I know I did, [01:04:30] and I loved it. It was great.

IRN: 1243
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/ilga_2019_launch.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004543
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089837
TITLE: Launch of the ILGA World Conference 2019
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Andre du Plessis; Elizabeth Kerekere; Georgina Beyer; Helen Kennedy; Kevin Haunui; Tony Nightingale; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Andre du Plessis; Caitlyn Jenner; Canada; Catherine Healy; Chris Bishop; David Lange; El Salvador; Elizabeth Kerekere; Fran Wilde; Fuimaono Karl Pulotu-Endemann; Georgina Beyer; Ghana; Grant Pittams; Grant Robertson; Helen Clark; Helen Kennedy; ILGA Oceania; ILGA World; ILGA World Conference (2019); Intersex Trust Aotearoa New Zealand (ITANZ); Jan Logie; Julian Cook; Justin Lester; Kevin Haunui; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Louisa Wall; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Margaret Sparrow; Natalia Voltchkova; National Library of New Zealand; Nicola Willis; Oxford Union Society; Pride Parade (Wellington); Rainbow Wellington; Rainbow Youth; Rawa Karetai; Stonewall riots (1969); Tim Barnett; Tiriti o Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi; Tony Nightingale; Tīwhanawhana; Tīwhanawhana Trust; Wellington; activism; bisexual; butch; conversion / reparative therapy; decolonisation; gay; gender identity; homosexual law reform; hope; human rights; indigenous peoples; intersex; journey; lesbian; mana motuhake; manaakitanga; pride; sex work; slapper; trans; vigilance; volunteer; wairua; whanaunga; whānau
DATE: 25 August 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Audio from the launch of the ILGA World Conference 2019. The event was held at the National Library of New Zealand on 24 August 2018. A special thank you to the organisers for allowing us to record and share this event.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I get it. [00:00:30] [00:01:00] [00:01:30] Need a [00:02:00] or, uh welcome, everyone. Um, we are about to have a few speeches. Uh, right now and I would like to also call on, uh, my co-host [00:02:30] for tonight, uh, Tony to to come and join me. My name is Kevin. I'm a member of which is this group here, and I'm a member of all sorts of different groups. But tonight, uh, my role is is basically to to open our which we have done with a a song tonight for and, uh, to briefly also pay our respects to the building in which we're in to the or the the [00:03:00] of, uh, this And, uh, but more importantly to you, And also, uh, to also remember those who are not here. Uh, because that's also an important acknowledgement that we have No, uh, my name is Tony Nightingale, and I'm the chair of Rainbow Wellington, and we are delighted that [00:03:30] you have honoured us with your presence. This is a wonderful feeling in this audience. We have a large representation of the LGBTI a B plus communities here. It's a long acronym. Um, and it's fitting and appropriate that we're here to learn more about and to meet the representatives tonight. [00:04:00] And I went on the website. And for those of you who think that Elga is a bit of a contraction, you're right. It is. It's the International Lesbian, Gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex Association. So they've cracked the slightly shorter acronym. Um, we have a lot of leaders from our communities here today, and I would like to say that we're honoured by everyone of your presence. Um and [00:04:30] I'm going to miss some out. But I just like to identify a few, um, in particular Dame Margaret Sparrow, whose involvement in sexual health and sexual identity and gender identity over a lifetime career has greatly enhanced and supported our communities. I'd also like to mention Georgina briefly, but I know that's going [00:05:00] to be a longer introduction. But just to acknowledge your presence and say how wonderfully well, you look, um, I'd also like to mention who is our Oceana representative on. And of course, our two international guests for whom I'm not doing the main introduction. But just to say at this point, we've got the, um the I have to get the titles right. The cose [00:05:30] General Helen Ken Kennedy and the executive director. Um, welcome. We're very pleased to have you here. We're very pleased to meet you. We're very pleased to hear from you. Uh, and so [00:06:00] with the other head I put on which is the lesbian and gay Archives of New Zealand. Uh, trust. I also would like to acknowledge the presence of, uh, Tim Barnett, who is here. Welcome, Tim. Uh, also to Nicole Wallace. Uh, who's here? Um, and, uh, other, uh, people, particularly those that have come from the, uh, German embassy. Welcome, Tim. [00:06:30] Uh, from the, uh, Netherlands, Uh, is here, uh, and also from the Chilean Embassy. Um, Fernanda, that's the second name because I couldn't pronounce the first name. She's here. It's wonderful to see, um, the support coming from the international community and there are those people who are not able to be here, which we also acknowledge. So, for example, um, Grant Robertson, um, [00:07:00] the, uh, mayor, uh, could not make it today. Uh, there were also Fran just at the last minute was not able to to attend tonight. She dearly wanted to attend Fran, who was a very important, um uh, instigator and mover and driver. Um, her words were this is a groundbreaking, um, event that's going to happen in New Zealand. And I agree the, um So, [00:07:30] uh, those are particularly people that were not able to make make it tonight. Um, Chris Bishop. He was unable to make it. Uh, Jan Loki was also unable to make it, But Jan hosted, uh, us today this morning. And, um, I just want to, uh, to say thank you to our very special guests that are here today. Also, uh, I can see Carl standing near our Pacifica. Uh, here. [00:08:00] Welcome, Carl. And it's great to see such a representation of the community here. No, on that note, I'd like to, uh, introduce our next speaker, who is, uh, has the task of also introducing other other speakers. But of course, we all know Georgina is, uh, is, uh, one of our most well known international [00:08:30] representatives of our community worldwide. She's, uh, and for very good reason. Uh, I won't go into that today, but, uh, it's our honour and privilege to have you here tonight. Georgina. I know my and, uh, if you wouldn't mind welcoming our guest mhm to [00:09:00] this wonderful launch event this evening for something amazing that's going to occur next year. The World Conference will convene in Wellington on the 18th to the 22nd of March in 2019 at the Michael Fowler Centre. Uh, this conference is expected to bring up to 500 representatives of lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans and intersex civil organisations as advocates for the LGBTI human rights around the world. To meet and share their experience [00:09:30] and best practises, strategize, build alliances and partnerships and to elect their representatives, Elga will celebrate several significant milestones at the 2019 World Conference, the 40th anniversary of Elga World, the 50th anniversary of Stonewall demonstrations and the first World conference to be held in the Oceania region and we're hosting it. [00:10:00] The host consists of Trust, Rainbow Youth and the Intersex Trust of a New Zealand organisations who have a long history of working together about issues of diverse gender, sex and sexuality, including and other indigenous forms. These three organisations agreed to host the World Conference as an opportunity for their communities to experience this international LGBTI [00:10:30] forum. Elga is a world federation of national and local organisations dedicated to achieving equal rights for lesbian, gay, bisexual Trans and in sex people. It speaks and lobbies and international fora on behalf of more than 1200 member organisations from 132 countries based in six regions. Pan Africa, Elga, Elga, Asia, Elga, Europe Lack, That's Latin and American, [00:11:00] Caribbean, North America and Oceania, established in 1978 enjoys consultative status in the UN ECOSOC Council and L A represents LGBTI society within the United Nations and other international organisations. So it is a powerful and much needed organisation to connect us all internationally. It is my pleasure and privilege to welcome, [00:11:30] um, three of our international guests who are here with us this evening. The first I would like to introduce you to Helen Kennedy, a woman I have known for some time who kindly invited me to Canada some years ago, um, to go to the, um a gals annual fund raising dinner that they held in Toronto, wasn't it? Yes, Helen Kennedy became a G's executive director in 2007. She joined the organisation [00:12:00] with 22 years of experience in politics both as an elected city councillor and a political staffer. She is a founding member of Canadians for equal marriage, widely regarded as the most influential public policy lobbying campaign in Canadian history, which ultimately resulted in Canada being one of the first countries in the world to legalise same sex marriage. Helen's work includes the Climate Survey on homophobia and Transphobia in Canadian Schools, [00:12:30] the first national survey of its kind in Canada and provides critical findings on bullying to schools, educators and governments. She has delivered training to immigration, refugee adjudicators and police services across Canada and the Balkans. At the invitation of the US Department of Defence, Helen consulted with senior Pentagon officials in Washington on the US military's don't ask, don't tell policy. She is co secretary general of El [00:13:00] World. Helen is also a recipient of the Queen's Diamond Jubilee Medal for community Service and activism. Uh, could you please give a warm welcome to Helen Kennedy? I really need to change my Wikipedia bio and make it a lot shorter. Thank you, Georgina. Um, as Georgina mentioned, um, we had [00:13:30] the privilege of having Georgina in Toronto a number of years ago at an event we had, and I can't tell you how. Um moved. We were that she actually a we could track her down and B that she actually came because it was a huge moment of significance for us to have Georgina in Canada because at the time we did not have gender identity or gender expression included in our Canadian Human Rights Act. So Trans people technically were not protected. And so having [00:14:00] someone of Georgina's stature come and be willing and so open to present in Canada around some of the issues and also speak so openly and freely about her own journey had a huge impact on everybody who was there. So I want to, uh for me, it's an honour because I'm a massive fan of yours and have been for a very long time. But I want to acknowledge also the many gifts that New Zealand uh brings to our global movement, whether it be Manny Mitchell [00:14:30] or the powerhouse Elizabeth or Kevin. There's so many gifts, um, and activists and great from New Zealand, who are pushing the boundaries for the LGBTI movement globally. So I think we certainly as an as a movement and L A as a a federation want to acknowledge the contribution of the queer community in New Zealand, but also the broader allied community In terms of what [00:15:00] you bring to the conversation. I also want to acknowledge, um that we do also have the support of the Canadian consulate here this evening, which is wonderful to see. I'm very proud of the Canadian government. I'm based in Canada and obviously everybody thinks, you know, all the gay guys love our prime minister. I think he's an absolute sex God. Um, personally, I think his wife, Sophie, is a lot more attractive, but and also because Canada is a bilingual country, French and English. I want to take the, [00:15:30] um I want to be so bold as all to acknowledge. Our our representative from the French Embassy from France is also here as well, but also for us. You know, it's an incredible privilege for LGA to have its conference celebrating its 40th anniversary. In a country like New Zealand, the richness of your culture cannot be understated. And that is something that I and my family and I know Andre and Natasha, who's also here from, [00:16:00] have had the privilege to experience. I've experienced it twice now, um, but have had the experience to had the privilege to experience this warmth and hospitality and deep Maori culture that is present in the meetings that we've had and in in the welcome that we have received from everybody, whether it be from the mayor's office, right through to the MP S today, uh, to the host, um, hosting agencies that have just welcomed us in open arms. And [00:16:30] I want the global movement people who are still living in countries that criminalise who we are to experience what we have experienced here this week next March. So I'm I'm very very, um um, what's the word? You know, as an as a big old lesbian butch, I don't get emotional very often, but I, I have to say, there is. There's something very, um, warm. I I'm [00:17:00] trying to find an emotion and express it right, But there there's just an incredible bond that we feel when we gather as communities and and recognise each other's strengths and also engage in conversation that allow us to be free and to be safe in a country that accepts who we are as people. So I can't thank you enough. I can't wait to come back next March and I can't wait to showcase New Zealand and Oceania to the broader family. [00:17:30] So thank you very, very much. The next of our international visitors today I would like to introduce is Andre Duple. He is L G's executive director formerly at Elga. Uh, Andre was the head of UN programme and Advocacy assisting LGBTI organisations from around the world to engage with the various [00:18:00] facets of the United Nations system. Prior to he worked on the human rights compliance of private military contractors in conflict zones and as a human rights officer in special procedures at the UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights. Andre is from South Africa and is an English solicitor with experience in the corporate and financial services sectors. Uh, he grew up in Zambia, the UK and India studied law at Cambridge [00:18:30] University and University College of London and has worked in mainland China in Hong Kong, London and is currently based in Geneva, Switzerland. Ladies and gentlemen, a warm welcome please for Andre dui. I think I also need to get my Wikipedia or Google search bio update a little bit there, but, um, I just wanted to express, uh, just to follow on. From what [00:19:00] Helen has said, the warm, warm welcome that we have felt since we've been here has been absolutely phenomenal. Um, and as Helen has said, this is something which I think is so exciting for people from around the world, um, to experience when they come here in March. I really appreciated the song at the beginning and thank you, Kevin, for your welcoming words where we acknowledged the many people in this room right here who I'm not going to go and repeat now. But we are each of us standing here amongst giants of the community [00:19:30] and people who have influenced and changed lives here and many places around the world. The other thing, of course, which we acknowledged at the beginning was the people who are not here. And those are people who physically can't be here because of other engagements. But I think we also know there are the people here who can't be here for very sad reasons. Um, my privilege, my work on a day to day basis is working with LGBTI defenders from around the world. There are people who can't get to events like this for security issues. As [00:20:00] I'm on my way here this evening, I'm dealing with a lesbian activist in El Salvador who is being harassed by street gangs. Um, where she lives. She and her partner are considering fleeing the country because it is unsafe to live there. And I just wanted to take this moment even as we celebrate rainbows and glitter for all that's going to be this fabulous moment next year, pausing to understand the reason why we do this work. So I'm remembering, um, my friend, my [00:20:30] colleague Andrea, who's going through that right now? Um, I'm also as I'm heading over here this evening. I'm looking at the the the news coming from Ghana, where there is potentially up to 400 people who've been, uh, uh, voluntarily going into conversion camps. Um, over the last few years, the the news is coming out. Um, and for all the complicated reasons related to, um, misappropriation of religion, um, [00:21:00] with minors. And we understand that these are the issues that we face. So I don't want to put any dampener on here, but I think the reason why we work why we stand here is? Yes, because we are fabulous. Yes, we are fabulously queer and amazing. But we also do it because we continually have to face violence and discrimination on a daily basis. Whether that's in El Salvador, whether that's in Ghana. And I know what happens even in this fabulous country here as well. [00:21:30] The struggle is not over here, it continues. But what I can say is that the welcome that you have given today this week I know will be amplified in March when activists from every corner of this planet are going to be here. And we are going to be sitting and we are going to be celebrating. And we are going to be discussing and strategizing and finding ways to have conversations to help people. Um, who can't be here, Um, and [00:22:00] who won't be there? Um, all the people who can't, um we will come together to make sure that somehow that can that can't can become a can. Um, so thank you again for the welcome this evening. Um, and I'll head over. Thank you last by, but certainly by no means the least of our international visitors who are with us this evening. is Natalia [00:22:30] Volkova. Please excuse me if I didn't pronounce that correctly. She is an internationally acclaimed CFO. And I'm assuming that's chief financial officer, uh, currently working at as director of finance and support services tasked to build financial processes and controls which will ensure the most effective use of the donors funds and to lead the board, uh, regional officers and staff in various financial and operational matters. Prior [00:23:00] to she worked as, uh, CFO of Swiss Russian Nanotechnology startup. And as the head of planning department, uh, of KFC France. Is that the KFC We assume it is? I presume so. Um, Natalia is a Russian Swiss and a qualified management accountant, uh, from, uh with an experience in the nonprofit consumer goods, nanotechnology and consulting sectors globally. [00:23:30] She has lived and worked in Russia, UK, France and Switzerland, studied finance and accounting in London School of Economics and holds an MB a degree from I MD. She is experienced in yoga practitioner and is interested in sharing innovative ideas in area of financial management of the international non-profit organisations. A warm welcome, please for Natalia. Oh, [00:24:00] Natalia has kindly declined to speak, which gives me a bit more time to give you an update. Um, um it essentially is, uh, the conclusion of what I have to say today. But as you may or may not be aware, I had an extraordinary invitation, uh, to address the Oxford Union. I will be leaving for there on the 20th of October, and I will speak probably on the 23rd of October over [00:24:30] there. But soon after, I made a Q and a appearance, Uh, not so long ago, Cambridge University got on to the bloody bandwagon, and I'll be going there as well. And although I haven't organised anything yet and I I will be travelling actually with Julian Cook, who's, uh, with Auckland Pride. Um, who's going to accompany me primarily as my PA, I think because I might need it while I'm over there. Um, I'm gonna be [00:25:00] offering myself particularly to a train or a trans organisation. I don't know who yet, Um uh, in London because that's where I'm gonna be based, uh, to use me as a fundraiser. Um, while I'm there, uh, and just to highlight trends in that area, But I'm also open to doing stuff for the AIDS foundation over there or other rainbow organisations. Honey, make use of me while I'm there. You might as well. It is a brilliant platform platform, not just for New Zealand, because there is an element of national pride [00:25:30] given our history at Oxford Unit, uh, unity with, um David Long. I can smell uranium on your breath, Um, and all of that. But also the right honourable Helen Clark. And of course, more recently, Dane Catherine Healey, who has been there. So I would be the fourth New Zealander to address the Oxford Union. And, um, I'm may be quite likely that I might be the first trans to address the Oxford Union. Cambridge has had a string of trends, including Caitlyn Jenner. So, you know, I'm [00:26:00] I'm down the list a bit. Obviously it provides a global platform. Their YouTube channel alone has up to 60 million viewers. And of course, it goes much further than that through, uh, social media and stuff. So I am gonna have to be very careful about what I talk about other than my own life experience, which is primarily what they want to know, particularly my experience on on politics and my perspective and view on it and my time in there. But also, how does [00:26:30] a, um, slapper from Vivian Street make it to somewhere like parliament? Uh, which may resonate with more than just me from around the world. Um, I'm not the only one that started out selling my you know what to buy my You know what, And, um, seems ironic now, doesn't it? But, um, so it's gonna be very important. And I am gonna be careful. I want to promote what our country alone has achieved in, uh, gay rights. [00:27:00] I know there is more to do and more to go, but the foundation upon which we have been able to leverage ourselves in past 30 de um, 30 decades. Well, perhaps, uh, certainly, uh, the last 30 odd years, um, has been amazing. And really, it is a reflection of our country, and I know it's difficult sometimes, and there are still some difficult hurdles to jump as far as bringing our public and our our country people on board, uh, with some of the movement we want to make in law. [00:27:30] But more importantly, I think sometimes attitudinally, um uh to us and that is where we win. And I hope that anything I might have done my small contribution, uh, to breaking some political glass ceilings, at least. And it has been inspiration, inspiration for other people around the world. But it's a reflection of us, huh? It's a reflection of all of us and everything we've done in our lives and those who have gone before us, whose shoulders I stand upon, uh, to be able to have done what [00:28:00] I have done. And now it is incumbent upon me in my sort of semi retirement. I was almost dead about a year or two ago, but sorry I'm back and I'm dangerous. Well, so that that that's what happens when I have a gay kidney within me. Now that was so kindly given to me from one of our community, a dear friend of mine Grant pits, who happens to live in Carterton. And so I did keep it in the family somewhat, [00:28:30] or we did you know, as far as that's concerned, Uh, we have a lot to share all of us in our experience. I'm sure you'll be able to share that next year during this conference and in fact, you'll be demanded to share it because there are others, as has been mentioned, who struggle around the world in situations we could barely imagine. And I'm going to be making a few points about that. In my Oxford debate. I'm gonna make a serve at Russia. I'm gonna make a serve at some of those African countries that still have death sentences. [00:29:00] I might give a serve to this conversion therapy business. It's outrageous. I mean, that kind of thing. And it occurs here in this country. And, um although we're trying to jump on it and stamp it out, it'll happen. Fly and out of the way. As I'm sure it does, It simply defies all of our human rights. And that kind of thing happens anyhow enough for me because the conference is next year. And um uh uh [00:29:30] fuck called, uh so [00:30:00] Kilda, I'm Elizabeth not flash enough to have a Wikipedia page. What's up with that? And, uh, I lived back in Gisborne, but I was 20 years in Wellington, and when I come home, I come to Wellington very, very often. And when I'm in a room amongst all of you, then I know that this is my second home. And I do know that so many of you here are my And some of the people I love most in the world are in this room. And so I'm thankful to [00:30:30] be here. I, uh uh to reinforce all the welcome to all of you. So all of those and our glorious ways of being in this world we welcome you. We welcome you. As as I said, the three of our groups that work together to do this we felt that any single one of us was never going to be enough. We didn't [00:31:00] have the reach, but we thought that we wanted to model the way that we actually work in Wellington. The way we work in a And so I want to just go over for you. Some things about when we the very first we had When we got together, we started talking amongst ourselves. Should we do this? Shall we do this? We sat down and said, What are our values? And I want to share those with you because in a way, when we hope to model these things across the world, we want to make sure that this is really how our people think This one is about that each of us as individuals, as organisations [00:31:30] We stand in our own man. We have our own autonomy and we create the spaces where we work together, uh, to your wait serious, No brainer. But we characterised it as decolonizing, sexuality and gender. It's that we respect from all these other people who are going to come to us from around the world. Their cultural practises, their cultural terms, their ways of being in the world and what we can do when they come to this space to know that they are welcome, they are honoured. Uh, we saw that as [00:32:00] respecting intergenerational roles and responsibilities, So it was really key for us to ensure that each of us is from our young people. Up to our elders had a role in this space in the lead up to and throughout the conference. And I just want to acknowledge our youth leaders who are in this space right now, uh, you know, massive, massive respect and for you all, Uh, but I just want to acknowledge all the work that you do and you lead our community and many of the issues [00:32:30] that are facing our people because, as Andre alluded to, we're gonna have much to show off at this conference and we will do that. We say we have achieved this, this and that. But we know from the UN submission we just sent out in the UP was done, that there are still major issues impacting around access to health care, trans health, uh, violence still against young people. The fact that we think of, oh, lesbians and gays, it's been out and around for a very long time. 30 years, homosexual law reform. There's still young people being kicked out of the house today because [00:33:00] they're coming out to their parents. So we have to remain vigilant. And this is an opportunity to share all the things that we are proud of and to learn from people from around the world who are facing the same journey as us, and that we together will look at how we can work together for the world. But very much, I think, from an indigenous point of view, we want to model a way of holding this conference and sharing what we do and show how we integrate things weave things together in a way that I have to say I've never seen [00:33:30] in all the international conferences I've attended next one. That's our extended relationships. So we start from This is our our key group of people that we're born into, that we choose as our main love and support. And then it's all our extended relationships out from there. That's into all our embassies. It's into our philanthropic and funders. It's into government. It's all the ways that we work together, absolutely key that we will look after our guests. [00:34:00] When they come here, they will feel safe. They will feel heard. They will be seen and they will be valued. We will look after them. We will have the best vegan and vegetarian food that they have ever seen. Uh, we will that regardless of ability or disability, they will know that they are safe and they are treated in this place. And I believe Wellington will do that unbelievably, Uh and we intend to have a lot of fun. We have when we talk to people around the world and say, Come to Wellington, [00:34:30] come to a we promise you fun I got no doubt we will bring it, and I want to special out to the pride people who are going to be running a pride parade. We are turning it on for our guest. So last count, we taking all that into account, and that's that's guided us. It's guided us in our decision making and the way that we work. When we thought about the conference itself, uh, and we thought about what our key themes were, and then I designed the logo [00:35:00] that's attached to the conference based on that. So number one and then the logo Imagine there's this beautiful logo. Uh, it is a waka. It's a two hold. It represents a two hold waka with two sails on it and a on the front. So on this on the sales is the design from the It's that stepped design represents so that again honouring all of our histories, the process, the impact [00:35:30] of colonisation that's colonisation that's had on all of our communities. And we are still feeling the impact today, but also all of the awesome histories, all of the incredible places that we have come from and all the people around the world. Who? Oh, ok, asking you, uh So, yes, all those histories we acknowledge all of that and that because we know that brings awesomeness, It also brings trauma. And we want to be a space where we can create healing and, uh, support for those things, [00:36:00] the pathway of the waka. We're acknowledging that this is an effort we're used to travelling a long way to get anywhere. Everyone else isn't so used to killing to us. And so we're acknowledging the journeys, the actual physical journeys as well as the cultural and historical spiritual journeys people have taken physically to get here. And we want to honour that, uh, effort. We have warned to say, Don't come on the day or even the day before You will be asleep by lunch time [00:36:30] and the next one is and it's represented on the front of the WAKA, and that's referencing the baskets of knowledge and absolutely about the shills, the skills and experience and knowledge that will be bought that we will bring to share. And we're going to learn it's gonna be so crazy. Awesome. Last one and that's represented. We take it from the, um the and that's represented on the basis of the WAKA. And that's about our growth. [00:37:00] It's our movement. It's OK. Great. We've all got here. And what? Where are we going from here? What have we learned? What are the actions? What are the strategies? What's gonna happen from this point? What are the incredible relationships and hook ups are gonna happen and what's gonna just keep on continuing through the work of but actually all of the member organisations who will come to this place? So we have promised that we'll have awesome volunteers we have promised today I said I want to, uh, take over running all the facilitation of the [00:37:30] in every workshop. So Sounds like something I would say, Uh, so that most people in this room just be aware that I will be contacting you about that. Uh, but yes. So finally, uh, I believe I'm the last speaker wrapping this all up. Welcome. Thank you all for coming. Uh, I guess this is a launch. Do we have launch language? Do you say I have to clear [00:38:00] Fuck you? No, this is an awesome evening that when we bring all of our all of our spirit all of our hope, All of our energy, all of our excitement, all of our love, all of our power and this space. And we launch this whole event from this point and welcome you all back here in March. [00:38:30] So Tony and I, on behalf of Lake Ends and Rainbow Wellington, would like to thank you all for coming tonight. We are looking forward to involvement, uh, going forward to the conference next year. I'm very certain that, uh, our visitors, uh, are impressed, and they're going to go away and tell the world Yes, Come along to to Wellington in March 2019. [00:39:00] So, um, and just to close, we've got a, uh, a that we've just chucked together, Um, to, uh and it's a It's a It's a story about, uh, an invitation to the world, uh, to the people in the Pacific, uh, to come to New Zealand to come to Wellington, and it actually then starts [00:39:30] to incorporate and weave together the history of the discovery of New Zealand. So we are saying, How do you get to New Zealand? We follow the path of the Octopus, the octopus that came from Hawaii to to And in fact, it was that octopus that, uh uh, the person that came with that and his wife. She was the one that named. So And there are landmarks today in the harbour that [00:40:00] still remember daughters and so forth. So it's starting to weave together the history of, uh, of our relationship here in but trying to do it in a way that keeps the stories alive. And then the final thing we're also talking about is, uh, when we come together, uh, let's all come together as one unit. Let's actually do this and make it happen. And so that's essentially the nature [00:40:30] of this. So it's all very new, right? But it is, uh, in honour of the, uh, event next year. And it also is an invitation to people to attend ourselves. Included. Uh, so we'll have a go at it. [00:41:00] Get tired. A If you got 10 I I you [00:41:30] he help out to by lot of Oh, yeah? Hello? Me? [00:42:00] Yeah. My Yeah, I keep them ti I go. Yeah, [00:42:30] see, It does. Thank you Came to Yeah, about into take it [00:43:00] right.

IRN: 1241
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/drew_hadwen.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004542
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089836
TITLE: Drew Hadwen
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Drew Hadwen
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; 2010s; 91ZM (Wellington, radio); Alison Laurie; Angela Main; Aotearoa New Zealand; Arthur Tauhore; Bamboo Bar; Beacons of Hope (Wellington); Candlelight Memorials; Casper's Bar and Cafe; Civic Square / Te Ngākau; Clare O'Leary; Courtenay Place; Dais dance party (Wellington); David Hindley; Des Smith; Devotion (Wellington); Devotion (party, Wellington); Devotion Festival (Wellington); Devotion parade; Drew Hadwen; Freedom dance party (Christchurch); GAP (Gay Association of Professionals); Gareth Farr; HIV / AIDS; HIV / AIDS; Helen Darwick; Hell for Leather (Wellington); Hero (Auckland); Hugh Young; Island Bay Library (Wellington); James Henare; Jane Perkins; John Penny; Lee Harrison; Lesbian Ball (Wellington); Lesbian and Gay Dances (Wellington); Lesbian and Gay Fair; Lilith LaCroix; Love parade (Wellington); Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Manners Mall; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; NZAF Ā whina Centre; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand Symphony Orchestra; Nick Tansley; Out in the carPark (Wellington); Overseas Passenger Terminal; Pauline Gillespie; Phil Smees; Polly Filla; Porirua; Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD); Pride Parade (Wellington); Pride parade; Rainbow Wellington; Richard Benge; Salvation Army; Scotland; Scottish AIDS Monitor; Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar; Shed 21; Shed 6 (Wellington); Sister Paula Brettkelly; Sprung! Productions; TSB Arena; Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington; Te Reo Māori; The Adventures of Priscilla; Queen of the Desert (film); United Kingdom; Vinegar Hill / Putai Ngahere Domain; Wellington; Wellington City Council; Wellington Town Hall; Wellington Waterfront Limited; Whairepo / Frank Kitts Park Lagoon; Women's Centre (Wellington); assimilation; belonging; breasts; bricks; cancer; celebration; church; community; community response; community support; corporate sponsorship; dance party; death; discrimination; faith; family; fear; floating candles; fomo (fear of missing out); freepost; fundraising; funeral; gambling; garden tour; gardening; hair; hairdressing; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; hope; hospital; human rights; identity; leather queen; marketing; mastectomy; memorial; music; nun; parade; parties; performance; pink dollar; pride; protest; remembrance; rimming; support; te kohanga reo; visibility; volunteer; waka; walk tour; whānau
DATE: 18 August 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Drew Hadwen talks about the development of the Devotion dance parties/festivals, and the Beacons of Hope services in Wellington in the 1990s.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I got involved in devotion in probably around January 1993 I had not long been back from my little OE and possibly look like I had a little time on my hands. And so various friends who were had been involved in the previous devotions are like, Oh, you should come and help with us. Come and help with that. And I think David Hindley may have been the volunteer coordinator the previous couple of years. I remember meeting him for a coffee at [00:00:30] Eva Dixon's and him with a smile, sort of ear to ear as he took me through what that role involved and handed over the list of names of previous volunteers he had. And that was me devoted. What was devotion? Devotion was at that point, I had been a big dance party that had been held sort of in big venues on Wellington waterfront. I think it was started by Peter, who worked [00:01:00] at the AIDS Foundation at the time back in 91 when I was away. But I remember thinking, man, we had nothing like this when I was, you know, at home. Bad timing. Um, and I think some of his motivation might have been around raising funds to support the work of the centre. But again, I could have just made that up. But I like that idea. I know in 93 when I got involved, there was I think 93 was the first year there was a parade as well. Yeah. And, um, the volunteers [00:01:30] that I was sort of working with were predominantly, um, brave people because we were down in shed 21 opposite the railway station, which is now, like some fancy apartments. But they it was far from fancy. There was bird shit and nasty stuff everywhere. So we did a lot, a lot, a lot of gross cleaning. Um, before we could even start to build the various bits and bobs we did indoors to hold the devotion dance party. Now, you mentioned, uh, fundraising for the centre of the New Zealand AIDS [00:02:00] Foundation. And, um, my understanding was that the that this kind of initiative, a bit like hero, um, came from, um, a response to the the huge impact that aids was having in New Zealand. And I'm wondering, can we just take a step back, say, back into the eighties and just talk about you know what? Um the the impact of AIDS, I guess on on New Zealanders, some of us lived. [00:02:30] That and other people, I think that I even people that I know now in my own generation were just oblivious, I think for a lot of us, um, it was that, like, what the hell is happening. And for me, I think I was first became aware of it. Like I grew up in greater Wellington region. I'm a kid, and I remember, like around the time of the law reform bill coming into town to go to the movies and these vile fundamentalist, I guess Salvation Army [00:03:00] Christian people just like almost surrounding us, you know, to try and force us to sign the petition and and saying horrific things about people living with HIV, which I don't think they called them that at that point, they probably called them really nasty, derogatory terms. Um, and what a dear, that was gonna be on everybody and all that blay hay horrific stuff. Yet people, our friends in and our community were getting diagnosed with this [00:03:30] thing that nobody knew about. And like when there's no information. Obviously, there's the ignorance and fear and and perhaps that fed those people with discrimination. But it was just shit, and it was really horrific. And they were our people. And so, as a young teenager, trying to make sense of that shit was just like, No, this is wrong. We need to be doing positive stuff, to support people and and try and get other people to, you know, be less ignorant to break that stuff down. So that was kind of my experience [00:04:00] of the impact. Um, initially, yeah, like in sort of the early mid eighties. And then I think I said just before I'd not long been back. I just went to the UK. And I spent some time in Scotland before I went away. I had been volunteering with the centre to, um do condom packs really like, Isn't that funny? They still do that now, but, um, and had, um Yeah, when I was overseas, I volunteered [00:04:30] with Scottish AIDS monitor Sam and had been involved in dance parties and things like that, Um, with my volunteering there. So it was kind of an easy segue into coming home and getting over my fomo that I'd missed out on the first two devotions and just becoming involved again. Can you recall what the, um, some of the other community responses to AIDS in New Zealand were other than, um, my own experience? Because I guess I was quite young and, you know, often when we're younger, [00:05:00] we're not as aware of wider community than than this sort of little bubble we live in, um, volunteering, you know, to do stuff like make the condom packs was, was what I knew. And I know that the centre and was being established and they were trying to, you know, work with people like sister Paula Britt Kelly and all that stuff around the legislation and the lobbying. And they were always, you know, she'd chuck her nun frock on to go down to Parliament. There was always [00:05:30] some MP she was off to terrify, and, um but you never saw her in that. Otherwise, her whole habit and carry on. Um, it was probably really community building in some ways, because this was something that was impacting us. And but in some ways, it brought us together and and I guess, gave us some strength because we needed to. We needed a community response, because if it wasn't happening to other communities, they didn't seem interested in [00:06:00] in trying to sort provide any support or or that kind of thing. I remember a lot. A lot of funerals. I remember going to the hospital with food, because even then, the hospital food wasn't necessarily appetising visiting people. Um, and real strong sense of we're all in this together You briefly mentioned, um, Sister Paula. Do do you have other other memories of of sister? Oh, absolutely. When, um, I remember the day I met [00:06:30] her, I'd sort of seen her in the centre and thought, Oh, is it? You know, she seems a nice older person, and she's always said hello, but I'd never had a proper interaction with her. And one day we'd, um, turn up for the condom packing. And there were none of the other a centre staff there, So she was on the phones, and I just about fell over. I heard this beautiful, smaller, older woman to say Well, yes, dear, but I don't think you are licking [00:07:00] the toilet seat. Perhaps you were, and then she you know, started to describe brimming, and I just stood with my mouth wide open going. Wow. Um, yeah. So that's one of my my, you know, more beautiful memories of sister Paula. I also have, um like, I feel really privileged to have had her in my life. You know, I have lots of memories of her. I remember when she was unwell, Um, and with her cancer and going through her mastectomy and stuff, Um, and then that leading into when another [00:07:30] volunteer who I had met through, uh, fena centre Claire had, um went through a similar journey and we were up visiting her in the cancer at the hospital. This is many years after what we've been talking about. And my own sister was about to have a mastectomy, and we were just talking about it. And you know what a bugger cancer was and Ra Ra Ra Ra ra and And they were both asking how my sister was feeling about it. And I was like, Oh, I think she's just feeling a bit weird about having her breast [00:08:00] removed. And so Sister Paula just whips out her little insert things that were in her bra and said to me, Oh, she can get some of these and handed to the handed them to me And before I knew it, I was like holding these little things that a nun put in her bra thinking what? And I was like the warm and I didn't know what to do with them. And I was like, Oh, my God, I've got a in my hand And you said Clear. I think it's better you hold these and pass them on. So she was hilarious. She [00:08:30] Yeah, and she had a, um she was, I think the, um Wellington Rainbow Communities and particularly the centre and all of us were so lucky that she was one of our team because she had humour. But she also had a real knack of getting people to come on board and getting people to do stuff like whether that was to help her move house or I know, when Wellington Women's Centre was [00:09:00] getting set up, Island Bay Library was changing its shelves. So next minute, the people from Island Bay Library are delivering the book shelves to the Wellington Women's Centre, Um and and they're just little tiny examples. But they really are. Yeah, anything and everything. She could make it happen. And she if she put her mind to it, It Yeah, you wouldn't want to get in the path if you were on the other side of that idea. So how did she get involved? Not in a bad way. You know, I'm not saying she was this horrible little terror. She was just was very determined and got [00:09:30] results. Yeah. So how did she get involved with the centre? I really don't know. For as long as I knew, she just was whether she got involved through her involvement in the, um, Human Rights Act lobbying or whether it was through her involvement in community. I'm I'm not entirely sure, but she's pretty awesome. One of the things that was happening in the late eighties and [00:10:00] early nineties was the amount of people, um, dying from AIDS related illnesses. Um, it seemed to peak around kind of 91 92. I, um And at the same time, we had things like hero. The hero festival in Auckland. Kind of coming up trying to, um I give, I guess, people a sense of hope in in in 11 regard. What was it like in Wellington in that kind of early nineties period? I guess I missed the very early nineties [00:10:30] I was away from or for all of 91 and 92. Um, came back very early. 93. Um, yeah, and I left just before the sort of end of 1990. So I don't know entirely what it was like in Wellington, and obviously, um, the UK it was quite different, but I think what you're saying was still going on when I came back. And it was it was happening before I went away, too. There was that, [00:11:00] um, that real Let's be, You know, let's be positive about this. Let's not Let's be positive. But like, you say, that desire for hope And what can we do to to hold on to that rather than go into complete despair, I guess. And, um, and with hope there was let's celebrate what is great. And I think there was an element of that through devotion, too, you know, it's about hope and looking forward, creating [00:11:30] visibility. We'd had the law reform time, you know, Um and then there was I don't know, that we were assimilating. But the next time we kind of hit the press, there was the HIV, um, stuff which received a whole lot of, you know, discrimination and nasty stuff. And we we hadn't really There hadn't really been anything that brought us back together since law reform that we just kind of drifted off into our little worlds [00:12:00] again. And I think the devotions and hero were about what do we do with this? Because we had these times where we had a real sense of community and shared cause and shared drive. And so the i think, the hero and devotion and they had one in Christchurch at some point. Freedom supported that, and and it gave us a sense of community and and identity and belonging for a lot of people as well as a damn good time. You know who doesn't want to party? [00:12:30] So So jumping back to 1993 and you were there with, uh, David Hiley who was giving you the volunteer list. Um, What did the job entail? What? What were you doing? Um um I think David must have done it for those previous couple of years and it was just getting in touch with people. If somebody organising a part of the dance party or a part of the parade had wanted help with something specific, whether it was like I talked about, there was that real need for physical, [00:13:00] grungy cleaning. But, um, there was, um I think, yes, a specific role, like plumbing or someone who could do builder stuff or someone who could perform or someone who could do catering. You know, there were all sorts of things that we'd identify as we went along that we needed help with. So it was trying to find people with those skills within our communities or networks who who might be willing to volunteer and help out because it wasn't a paid gig. [00:13:30] It was just all about community coming together to raise money for, for for our own communities and our own stuff. Um, and then there were also a bunch of people who were like, Man, I want a piece of this. And so it was about having conversations with them about Well, these are the kind of things that we need a hand with. What kind of things do you think you have and trying to find something that enabled them to be involved and contribute as well. Did the 93 party have a theme? [00:14:00] Was it themed? Oh, it might have, but that's a little while ago. Gareth Thumb. I remember that, Um because from volunteer coordinator, my role morphed into being the front of house manager on the night of that party. And I remember the, um being a phenomenal wall of water for Angela Mayne, the party director had wanted to create [00:14:30] to welcome people as they came in to shed 21. And we managed to. It was, um, all bodged together with, you know, huge plastic sheeting, and the actual water was a garden hose. I don't know if you could even buy a soaker hose then, but we made a hole with holes in it with the nails, and that made it at work and it run down. We had a few issues as the party went on with safe drainage and that the water wanted to run everywhere. The, you know, electricity was, [00:15:00] but we we managed to sort that out. Yeah, and we both, um that was the year that there was a huge waka boat to bring one of the, um, groups in for one of the performances. So that was a little bit, um, genius. And in rehearsals when the the shed wasn't jammed with, people went really smoothly. It's slight logistical nightmare when it's live, and there's, you know, hundreds of people in there on the dance floor and trying to drive through. I don't think anyone was actually squashed, but it could [00:15:30] have been. Could have come off quite quite badly, but it worked out well in the end. So there was this amazing walker on this frame on wheels that just came from the back of the shed, right down to the front where we built the stage, and that was pretty awesome. There had been a mezzanine floor in there, and we managed to build a staircase that kind of went up and down so that people could yeah, be at different levels of the party we built chill out areas. Um, I remember we had to put in [00:16:00] to meet health and safety stuff, emergency exit doors, and someone just happened to have been renovating their house. And so we're going to check out all of their interior doors and donated them, and we wired them up with, um, little metal flats and made proper crash exit doors at either end of the shed. So there was loads of different bits that went into it. None of that necessarily gives you the theme, but maybe hopefully it gives you a bit of a sense of the grandeur and the Yeah, and tell me about some of the performers [00:16:30] performers. Um, I have to tell you, my memory of one devotion to another can get really blurry. But I think because that was my first one, I can remember there were there were a whole lot of shows. I remember one show where Jerome and some others had built some platform shoes that were ridiculously high and dangerous, and Jerome was a very tall man to start with. So when he got on to these homemade platforms with wooden [00:17:00] heels, probably about an extra six inches, it was just a towering phenomena. Um, it was quite fantastic. Yeah. And, um, no, there was another show where they were pretty sure there were. It was a bunch of women who were wearing somebody in on in the show, like Each of them was wearing a different colour of the rainbow flag. Um, there were lots of great lights. I don't want to downplay it, because I know that Angela Mayne and the [00:17:30] and I think John Penny was involved with some of the tech stuff and all those people at the time just did an awesome job. Like if you'd seen that horrible bird covered, um, shared with a whole lot of old tyres and stuff and then come back on the night of the devotion party, it would have blown you away. It was fabulous. It was really well done. So there was the dance party. But you're also saying there was a parade as well. Yeah. Yeah. So another bunch of people were really [00:18:00] keen to have a parade. I don't know if it was the first one in 93 or if it was the next one, but definitely know that, um, the radio station 91 ZM it was called at the time got involved. And, um, their sponsorship team or or whatever it is, the marketing team helped support it with a little bit of financial contribution, and their vehicles were in the parade that kind of thing. I think [00:18:30] the 93 1 might have gone from Civic Square to somewhere. And then the 94 1 came from Schafer's Park and down Courtney Place. Not way before the skate park was in Schafer's park, but yeah, around the corner, down Courtney Place onto manors. And then Willis and Mercer back into Civic Square, so changed direction that year. Can you recall what, um, onlookers thought of the, [00:19:00] uh I think it was called The Love Parade. This is 93. Yeah, I think it was called The Love Parade. And then at some point, became known as the Devotion Parade. Um, I remember being in it, Just walking. Yeah, I don't remember a lot of hassle or at all. I remember being, um, just buzzing, you know, having been to pride in London and and how huge that was. And to have [00:19:30] the opportunity to be doing that in Wellington, you know, pretty much my hometown and everyone who was participating in the parade and had been involved in organising it was just really excited and buzzing. And there were a lot of people who I knew from our communities who didn't feel that excited about it, yet came down to watch it, you know, So seeing people that you knew and them just beaming. But whether it still felt a little unsafe [00:20:00] to be that out, or for some people at that time, I'm not sure, but yeah, but to see them and just other Wellington just enjoying our our celebration, our pride. And I suppose it's really important to remember that, you know, we're still only about 66 or seven years after homosexual law reform happened in 86 and there was that kind of violence coming from the ANTIREFORMERS. So I Yeah, I can see why [00:20:30] you'd still be not wanting to be that visible. Yeah, absolutely. It was pretty big. It was pretty big. And I guess reflecting it is probably a bit brave for those of us that just were like, Yeah, we're gonna do it, You know, I don't know that that much thought went into it. I think yes, we're going to do it was all that that went into it. So for that, um, devotion party, um, which would have been the third one that had happened. So, um, so I guess the first one happened on 91 2nd, 1992 [00:21:00] this third one. How many people attended, do you think? Oh, so she 21 is pretty large. And there were times when the dance floor was shoulder to shoulder. So I guess we could Google. We could see if it's anywhere, um, online, but definitely hundreds, if not around 1000 people easily would have been there. Yeah, a lot of people, I think would have a little pre party come down, um, and go all night. [00:21:30] Others might come early, then go home or go out and party on. And, of course, there were people that were there from when the doors opened till when dawn broke. No, that devotion, um, party also, um, was significant because, uh, Arthur, uh, a well known performer in in Wellington, um, passed away on that evening. Yeah, it was a really big um It was a really big significance [00:22:00] to us. And and there were a there was, And there are other community members that passed away that evening, or we got news of they had passed away the following morning, and some of us who were working the event and some of the people attending, I assume. But we we heard that news, and we were really upset, but equally like we we carried on, you know, it was almost like a nod to Arthur. It was like, awesome, man, We could throw a party [00:22:30] as you leave our world, you know, and and we're not going to stop it. And it did have an impact. It made it a little bit hard to keep being happy and enjoying the buzz for a while. But we I guess you suck it up. And you you do what you've got to do, and then you can reframe, You know, in your own in your own head with it was like a sad thing or a really nice synchronicity. Can you tell me a bit more about [00:23:00] Wow, Arthur, I am. Gosh, I mean, I I'm not that much younger than Arthur, but you know when when you are that young age gap seems a whole lot different. I think I was just in awe of Arthur. Arthur was, uh, somebody who'd been really visible and out and a part of our community for a good while. He, um, was always really supportive of [00:23:30] things in community. Like through his salon. He would always, you know, donate prizes. Or he would hold events there. Um, obviously with Hearty and Brady and the others as well, um, Charlie, the whole kind of love crew. And, um, he was something to watch. Like, on stage. Some of us are born to perform, and I think he did that with heart. Yeah, and I. I also recall, [00:24:00] um, a friend of mine, Jane Perkins, did a photography exhibition. And there was this gorgeous picture of Arthur in that which for years hung in Caspers after Arthur passed. And so it was nice that he was always around, and and now I see You know how me and Scott and Scottie and Mels have a lot of images of our people who have passed or our leaders. I think that's a really nice That's just a nice little memory I have because, um, both Arthur and [00:24:30] Jane are no longer with us. So it's one of those memories and joy. I didn't know Arthur well, personally, but I knew of him and had, you know, it was just a little bit like an all like, wow, you're Nate Shit. Also in, uh, 1993 in May 1993 there was the massive, um, beacons of hope around Frank, its lagoon. And you were saying to me earlier that you were also [00:25:00] involved in beacons of hope? Yeah, I think I am probably to my family and partners to spare. Came back after my little and decided to do a whole lot of voluntary stuff so weirdly I still do that. Maybe it was the start of it, Um, or it just solidified it. But Richard Ben organised the beacons of hope. Then for the, um, a centre. It was Wellington's response to the [00:25:30] Inter International Aid S Candlelight memorial. And we used to make, um so I volunteered with that, um, and helped make beacons. It's quite an art. We used to rely on there being a bit of a storm, so we'd be able to find the timber washed up on, like, Paton Beach or te Ta Bay Beach or somewhere. Um, And then we would have little beacon making lessons and get a whole crew of volunteers together. And, um, yeah, I I'll share the recipe. Hey, it's quite fun at vinegar. Hill, [00:26:00] too, if you ever wanted to make a beacon. But you just, um, put a bit of tinfoil around the the end of the stick, wrap it in like cotton or, like old sheets. Just wrap it round and round and round a whole lot of fabric. And then we would crisscross like number eight wire, um, or actually number eight wire and making it up. No one could do that with their hands. Unless they're really Butch Farmer. Right. Um, but just crisscross tai wire around a bit like a ballet slipper might go up a leg, hold it on there. And then they were good [00:26:30] to go for the, um, candlelight memorial, which was then known as beacons of Hope. And we would make one for every person that we knew from the epidemiology reports had died of an AIDS related illness in a And so then we would have, um, there would be speakers. There would be some music. It would be, um, the beacons would be either over the carriage to the lagoon at Frank Kurtz [00:27:00] or around it or around Frank Kitts Park, depending on which venue it was by volunteers from our community sometimes remembering somebody and they would be lit. And then, um, another part of those That ceremony was the calling of names. So you can imagine, like, for some reason, the weather was always very still. But it's still Wellington night and just the Frank K Lagoon surrounded [00:27:30] by people holding beacons. Um, maybe like one year, the symphony orchestra, some of the symphony members played just that music, and then the quiet and then just people's names being called. It was a really beautiful way to remember those that we've lost to isolated conditions. And, um and it was a really collective way to do that, because I know I couldn't really [00:28:00] articulate some of the impact earlier, because my experience is, you know, quite different to a lot of other people, um, and each of our experience unique. But to come together to do that is something that was significant for our communities and our was was is because although it's not the big beacons of hope ceremony anymore, that memorial still happens each year. It's pretty special. It's pretty important, too, I think, and [00:28:30] I guess with saying that it's important. I think what I'm kind of thinking is and want to say out loud Is that all too often people in our communities, even as recently as the eighties and nineties, would have no relationship with their biological because of homophobia, because of fear of HIV and AIDS because of discrimination. So for some people, it may be their story. [00:29:00] And these are people I've known. Oh, you're gay. Well, you're not a part of our family. And then that person may get an HIV diagnosis, and their biological family are even more like back off. You know, we don't know how to deal with this, and we don't want to be a part of you. So I think we have a I often refer to our rainbow or our I think we for some of us, that is really, really important to be able to do that [00:29:30] collective, um, remembering and celebrating and and all of those things together because that's that's still recent. And whilst some of us who may have been in that situation who are still here, that may have changed and we may have relationships with our bio, I think our logical are just as if not more important, so someone was saying to me the other day about that they thought there was still a lot of, um, posttraumatic [00:30:00] stress within kind of queer communities from, uh, what was happening in the eighties and nineties, particularly around law reform. And also HIV a I and I guess, um yeah, like, do you Do you have thoughts on? Uh, because it sounds like, um particularly around the early nineties, that these the the it was really heightened emotions, you know, heightened grief. Heightened, um, activism. Yeah, Yeah, I think that's a really [00:30:30] that completely makes sense. It resonates I. I get that and I imagine there is. And it may be that there is that PTSD and many of us are impacted by that time to varying degrees and and varying sort of other experience pre and post that. But it's probably a really good way to frame it because there was a lot of grief. There was a lot of hate [00:31:00] in your face. There was a lot of messaging and and things coming at us and at us, you know, from from the rest of the world, the rest of society, our own non queer communities, you know. But the and the communities and workplaces we lived in. So all of that kind of stuff is bound to have an impact and things like, [00:31:30] yeah, those kind of things affect us all differently. And I suspect that some of us have had different experience since some of us may have been affected in more traumatic ways. And it's I have not been Yeah, but totally. That's what I'm Yeah, I'm a green. Yeah, I think, um, for me, like if if you put it in context. I was in my early teens when I was when law reform was happening and I was being having encounters [00:32:00] with these horrible people simply as a kid with my friends trying to come into town to a movie, they probably didn't realise I was queer. They were just like, Ah, we just need signatures, you know, And Children are vulnerable. So let's let's be really horrible to them and try and make them feel uncomfortable enough that they're going to sign our petition. They wouldn't have expected, you know, this little blue eyed, blonde thing to go? Nah, that's me. And, you know, in the middle of [00:32:30] and and then to have that horrible interaction. And, um, which again was just motivating, you know? Then I found out about Dez sticking envelopes to bricks and went along and joined in. Um, but that's, um, dear Smith. So what was he doing with the, uh, the Salvation Army did an unaddressed envelope appeal around the time. And he got a whole crew of people, um, to collect those up and got a whole lot of bricks, and it had a free post on it. So he encouraged us to paste them [00:33:00] to bricks. And they had to pay the postage, Obviously. Yeah. So lots of exciting stuff came out of it. But also, it has an impact and And to go from that to the time of And then, like as a young person, so many people had met and known during those times or earlier getting an HIV diagnosis, the all of the history around, you know, the meds weren't available. The meds weren't working. Some people, it was [00:33:30] really quick from diagnosis to death. Other people. It was a really horrific time of visiting in hospital. So when you're really young person and and that is your lived experience PTSD in in one form or another makes complete sense, and I think it also forms some of that experience. I guess in some way has formed who I am and how I am and why I still volunteer and why. I still really think it's important that we come together as [00:34:00] rainbow communities to have things like pride and why I thought then the devotion Party and so on were great and why I then got involved in organising the Devotion Festival. Because the party, although I keep going, everyone loves a party, and I do, but only if I've got a job to do. You know, I don't really like to dress up and go and hang out with people. I'm pretty pretty shy about my dancing, but I think, um, that collective community stuff [00:34:30] is is really valuable. So when did the Devotion Festival begin? Ah set myself up for that. My memory is a little a little sketchy. I think it may have been 95 96 that we started the festival because I, like Peter back in 91 got devotion up and running, and I think he might have started the group called Sprung Productions in 92 and then sprung [00:35:00] became a board, a voluntary board, and that's had some continuity of people, sort of from year to year. But it also had, um, changes, changes of people on it, and different people bought different things. There was around, I think it was around again, 90 5 96. There might have been a bit more work done on the promotional kind of side of it. The marketing, the Devotion magazine [00:35:30] was, um, came along might have even been as early as 94. Um, And then we used to do posters, you know, teaser posters around town and the actual party posters and those kind of things. All of that grew to be a much bigger part of it. And it gave the events an income stream, like selling ads meant you could produce more things. Um, and the festival came about. I think, um, Lee Harrison may have done the first festival, and I volunteered and helped her with that. [00:36:00] And then I kind of picked up the festival and doing front of house. Someone else was doing volunteers by then. Um, yeah, and it was pretty awesome. That, I guess, is how I got to meet a whole lot more people in our community who, some of them, who I still know. And it was all about trying to put together a calendar. I think we just went for a week at that stage leading up to the day where there would be the parade and the dance party to finish it all off. But to incorporate [00:36:30] events that would be a bit more inclusive of other aspects of our communities so that those who you know, the parade and dance party weren't necessarily for them could still be a part of the overall devotion celebration. And so we'd have things like, um, I think that's when I first ever went to a garden tour at Des and John's Beautiful Garden And we, you know, even in 2017, [00:37:00] we had that as a part of the the Wellington Pride Festival. I'm hoping we'll have it again in 2019. Um, that was when I think it was 1990 four. I still have a printed, um, Lesbian and Gay History of Wellington Walking Tour Guide that Hugh Young and Alison Laurie did, which ties in with the the pride NZ walks and stuff that you [00:37:30] organise now. And I remember going on there and just being like, Wow, I've grown up in this city and I've heard of some of these things through my Nana and my uncles and and now it's like, Wow, this is a part of my history, you know, the my rainbow history as well as I guess you know, my rainbow in a way as well as a part of Wellington's history and to to be able to bring all of that together. So those kind of things [00:38:00] in there it was, um, when the some of the rainbow faith groups would, you know, organise a special potluck dinner or something just to come together because they were often not considered, you know, as as a part of our wider community, it felt like they were just in their own little bubble. So it was. It was nice to be able to put together work on, um and we'd have like, I don't know, we probably watched something. Some classic lesbian movie on video at the bamboo. I remember going in with the video [00:38:30] cassette and asking me to push play you know, um and, um it was just, like, trying to have a little bit of something for everyone and and going out and saying to those parts of our communities. Do you want to be a part of this to to bring it all into together again? Yeah. Am I right in thinking that the 95 Devotion Festival happened around, um, the Wellington Town hall and kind of Civic Square [00:39:00] area? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that kind of leads me to think about, um, support, I guess from the City Council and the mayor. Um, how how were the City Council in terms of supporting things like devotion? Um, my experience was so that one at shed 21 was the first that I was involved in. And then there was that one in Civic Square. Then we were in shed six when the brand new TSB arena, [00:39:30] like we were the first big event in there. Yeah, they're a little bit uptight, but thankfully, I don't think we made any cigarette burns on the floor. Um, and then to the overseas terminal. My experience was that City Council were always really supportive. I think we're pretty lucky with that in Wellington. I wasn't necessarily on the sprung board in those early days. So whether it was as supportive as it looked by the time it got, you know, down the food chain, I can't be sure. I think Wellington Waterfront Management, um, [00:40:00] were responsible for some of those venues, and I think from memory, they could have been a little more supportive, but Wellington city Council were very instrumental in ensuring that they do get behind stuff. Yeah, And I know that, um, the city Council also like with the venues, um, we're able to help us keep costs down and and those kind of things and and as it went on [00:40:30] and, you know, towards the later years were really great in helping promote devotion, Not necessarily by putting any coin into it, but just using their own coms, channels and those kind of things. And, um and obviously that's rolling through to pride these days, you know, Was it easy to get um, kind of other businesses involved in the devotion festivals? It was a wholly different time. What is now called Rainbow Wellington [00:41:00] used to be called Gap. Yeah, and that was like the gay association of Professionals. And there was that guy, Phil SMEs, who was part of Caspers who had the Poki machines. Um, and through those poking machines, I know a lot of funding was applied for to make some of the devotion elements available. There were, um, Wellington City [00:41:30] Council had an advisory group, a lesbian and gay advisory group. And they put together, um, I was involved in that Helen Dar was involved in that, um, lots of people. Um, they put together AD L Flyer. That was like a directory of, um, all the lesbian, gay, bi trans rainbow organisations that they knew of in Wellington. So that gave us, like, a listing of community groups. [00:42:00] And Gap put together one that was the businesses. So that was almost like the people that were trying to get sponsorship for anything to do with devotion had these two lists of names to contact, and it was awesome. It was just, um um and I think that the whole thing of other businesses hooking into the pink dollar was maybe happening offshore, and it started to look a little bit new, but mostly it was personal networks and and that kind of thing [00:42:30] that helped us be able to contact places to raise money. Whereas now you know, it's like OK, OK, that's so last week, you know, you've got to pitch it a little harder rather than yeah, although we're naughty with it, too. I remember that, um, wanting to organise a barbecue for the volunteers, for one of the devotions and, you know, wanting to get some sausages sponsored and just going to some butch not necessarily connected to our communities in any which way that I was aware of butchery [00:43:00] place and saying, Oh, look, we've done this thing and and we've had all these awesome volunteers and we're raising money for the AIDS Foundation, and we would love some sausages for the barbecue. And just the minute you kind of said gay and AIDS and you saw a little bit of, like, shit, I've got to get them out of my shop. And they handed over the sausages, so, you know, play it, play that fair for the for the good as well, So so has the, uh, AIDS foundation. The art centre. Always been the kind of beneficiary of the devotion festivals. Hm. [00:43:30] I think that was the in in the initial years. Absolutely. I don't know that the parties ever made a hell of a lot. I know that. They then went on to fund, like, self fund themselves, you know? So the first few years, I think that was the focus. And then it was about being sustainable and and being able to break even. And if there was any money left, where would it go? Was often a discussion that [00:44:00] the board would make? I can't recall. I think there may have been one year where they did it, like an application process. And various, um, organisations could apply for any funds that were left over. I may be confusing that again and making history up, but, um, yeah, I could certainly find out for you from people who would know that jumping forward to 1997 and that was a really big year. I've seen some, [00:44:30] um uh, footage on TV about, uh, the the devotion, uh, party happened in the old town hall. Um, you had, uh, Gareth Far Lilith doing the midnight mass. Um, And you also had a really large parade. That was, um, uh, protested by Christian fundamentalists. Tell me about that year. Ah, the Wellington town hall. Year was great. Um, yeah, the Christian Fund. They were fun. We So the parade [00:45:00] that was that parade, I think, was probably the first one that had a lot of buzz and excitement around it. We've done it before. People knew what to expect. And and that year we definitely did have the support of the radio station. So they were able to provide some vehicles that some organisations could decorate up. It was totally, um, community, though, you know, they were probably the only non community, although they were [00:45:30] kind of definitely allies. And, um, they there was just like, every community organisation you can think of. I think that was the year someone did a Priscilla bus. And it might have been, uh, poly Filler's first devotion as poly filler. And I recall, um, a very young poly filler, Still very gorgeous. Then, um, walking along with this Priscilla bus and there was a real sense of fun and excitement, and I know my own photograph collection. You know, I've got photos [00:46:00] of me that people have given me, and there's like, there's these two photos. There's me taking a photo of Claire O'Leary taking a photo of me taking a photo of her, and it's fantastic. Um, we were all pretty excited, and and that's the year I think. I said. We came from Schafer's Park before it was a skate park around in down Courtney Place onto, um, that little bit of Willis or onto manors and then turned into Willis and Mercer and back into Civic Square. [00:46:30] Just as we got onto manners. There seemed to be a little murmur of Christian protesters, but we didn't really take much notice. And and one of the great things about our culture is that when we're in fabulous, we're in fabulous and we're witty and we're quick, and, um, they got some pretty sharp barbs back. And then, as they may have run ahead of us, or it might have been that just that coincidentally, a lot of them looked the same. But there was a massive posse of them with placards [00:47:00] And what have, um, just on the entrance into Civic Square from the end of Mercer Street? And they were quite abusive and they were quite horrible, and I know a lot of people got upset, but there was. I remember the people in the parade just all be going like, don't give them the time, ignore them, you know, Or don't let them upset you. This is ours. And there was a bit of a sort of standoff and a bit of yelling, and we just carried on. And I think I don't know whether there were people from their community in ours or whether the police intervened [00:47:30] or something. But at some point, they seem to get shut down. And they didn't really manage to bugger up the party. So that was great. Yeah. And then, um, like you say, the party that year was in the Wellington town hall, which was so awesome, and it also took in Civic Square. So, um, that year I just participated in the parade, worked on the festival, and then and then was doing front of house for the party. I, [00:48:00] um God, personally, I made such a mistake. I have really bad hay fever. And I had this idea. I was gonna grow a dress out of live grass, which I managed to do, but all the grass seed was still kind of attached to the and I was just sneezing and sneezing and sneezing, welcoming people and doing front of house. But I I've learned I've never made a live grass dress before. Um, not before again. Um, yeah. So that night there were all sorts of fun activities out in Civic Square itself. There was those little I mean, [00:48:30] it doesn't really sound fun when I describe it, but those little go kart things that are made out of old toilets And there was other fairground attractions and there were the coach was able to be out out there. And, um, there was just roving kind of stuff happening in entertainment. And then when you went into the town hall, there were more things I remember. There were those sumo wrestling kind of costumes that you jump into And, um yeah, and having to take [00:49:00] most of my costume off to be able to get into it and, um and yeah, and just having a lot of fun, you know, lots of fairground, kind of side fun attractions as well as there was the chill out space. There were particular, you know, designated spaces for different things. And then of course. The stage with the shows and the the dance, dancing and all the various D playing and and And the big main town hall itself, which was pretty beautiful [00:49:30] felt pretty special for us as a community to, you know, be in the town hall. Yeah, nowadays, you're kind of like me, but, you know, it was it was pretty exciting. I'm just trying to remember, as I talked to we may have had two years in the town hall. Um, because when I talked of my live grass dress earlier, I remember being there in another costume. So it may have been 95 96. We did that two years in a row, and [00:50:00] somewhere in there we had another, um, devotion party at shed six on the waterfront, which is right next to the TSB Arena. And we had the party in both venues. It was pretty soon after the TSB arena had first opened, and I remember them being pretty anxious about the flooring surface because it was some special, really expensive stuff for sport. Um, that was played in there, and they rolled out a special floor [00:50:30] cover that they had incorporated into the design for balls and the lakes, but they're a bit worried about the debauch devotion crowd and what we might do to the precious dance floor. But we seem to manage not to grow in the place in it. Yeah, but that was an exciting one, too. Like what? Um, we set that all up so people would walk up the stairs from Frank Park into like a corridor, um, at the TSB arena, and then they could go down [00:51:00] some stairs. We built into shed six, where the the dance party was There was like the cafe, but and the chill out space and that kind of thing and then get their devotion dollars to go to the bar and and then connect back through into the TSB arena, where the big dance floor space was going off. And, um yeah, and as people walked up initially to go through that corridor to get into one of the, you know, actual party spaces wherever they were going, we set up [00:51:30] these, I guess P plants with walls, so you kind of had to zigzag through it. And on each of those, there were different representations of different parts of our community. So, um, we tried to highlight There were the leather queens had a had a couple of people up there. There was a lesbian, kind of They were almost, like live artworks. You know, they weren't just stood posing or whatever, but just just gently interacting which whichever way they were, they were gonna be Yeah, and and it made it quite a fun [00:52:00] entrance and inclusive. So was 1997. Was that the final devotion? That was the final devotion. And it coincided with the night Papa opened. And again, um, I was doing front of house there, and I recall Lilith. Gareth had performed to open devotion and then had to get to Papa to perform there for the opening night of that. [00:52:30] And, um, just recall, because that was at the overseas passenger terminal, which isn't a huge distance unless it's dark and you're in heels and a wig. And, um but I recall him coming screaming out of the overseas passenger terminal going Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I've only got five minutes to get there and just hurtling, you know, um, down the down the waterfront to towards to make his next event. So that would have actually been, uh, 1998 I guess because was, I think, opened in 1999. So [00:53:00] I think is, um town ha. Well, town hall 98 would have been the overseas passenger terminal. Right? So we were two years at the town hall, then I think, and we were at the TSB Arena and the last one was the overseas passenger terminal. So that's Yeah, that's how I couldn't work out where we were two years at Town hall. Yeah. So can you describe the last devotion in 98? I guess at the time, [00:53:30] we may not necessarily have realised it was going to be the last one. Um, but I I remember we worked really hard to create different dance spaces because for some people and we'd had feedback, you know, from some people, like the music has no words. It's just I want I want to be able to dance to something I can sing along to, um literally that was That was the feedback. So we had worked really hard to have different [00:54:00] DJ SD Jing in different spaces in the overseas passenger terminal. I don't think for me, it had the same level of excitement. Although I guess in the previous ones doing front of house, I had been able to be in more in and involved in the in the party. But it just it was a great night for other people. You know, when you're doing in front of the house, I guess it's you've got a job. It's a bit hard to enjoy it as much. Um, [00:54:30] yeah, it was probably No, I'm saying we didn't necessarily know or think it was the last one, as we were doing it as I reflect. Probably was heading towards winding down like the dance party thing wasn't quite. It wasn't for everyone. You know, we had other other things going on. There were like they'd been hell for leathers being organised. There'd been lesbian boys. There were the [00:55:00] university dancers had, um, from years back. It kind of disappeared, but was starting to come back in a different format. And I think that after that last devotion, the the remnants of the then sprung board went on to become the group that did the first, which was the new university dance up up at the Um, yeah, and that was probably just a better size for [00:55:30] than than thinking of those huge, huge venues down in Wellington to make them viable. What do you think? Uh, devotion's legacy is wow, I guess it. It's definitely of a time in a generation. It certainly ages you when you talk about devotion, um, with people that you're hanging out with now and they're like, What was that? You know, I. I don't know. That devotion [00:56:00] actually set out to have a legacy. And if we did manage, if if there is anything, I guess that community connectedness that some of us lament and others would rather know our ankle off and think about Yeah, like it. It certainly served its purpose of providing a space and a place for people that were going through some really hard stuff, whether [00:56:30] they realised it or not, um, to come together and have a sense of belonging and that collective strength and the nonbiological, all of those things, as well as remembering people that we'd lost celebrating pride, um, and And that grasping or not grasping no grasping is bad. But that desire [00:57:00] for hope, you know, we'd come out of law reform and HIV was happening in our communities, and the impact of that, we'd we'd all come together and kind of then I guess devotion came in a nice time for us to to consolidate that almost post law reform. And and those other times, that's what I think, what others think, Who knows? And And we we we talked [00:57:30] a little bit about, um, beacons of hope and how you had started volunteering with that in 93 and then, um, taken on the mental of organising it. Um, a few years later, perhaps, um, can you maybe just talk briefly about how, um, that event kind of changed and moved into into what it is now? I guess. Yeah. So beacons of hope in the earlier days probably [00:58:00] was as well as an opportunity to remember those people who were dying at a hell of a quick rate. You know, people were being diagnosed and dying in a really short period of time, or people who were our that were overseas were being diagnosed and not necessarily even getting home, or some were managing to come home, but they would had left New Zealand, you know, and as one person and come back as a really unwell person simply to die. Um, there was loads going on around [00:58:30] it, but the the beacons of hope the international AIDS Candlelight memorial is, I think I said a little earlier. It's that really important thing of remembering and having a space to remember collectively, Um, and also in a space where you can be in that huge crowd and just be right there on your own, but in a in a supportive, supportive and safe environment. To do that, I think the bigger ones were almost as tical in some way [00:59:00] or no. Actually, no. The earlier ones were very emotional in community, and it didn't matter if you like closely or immediately knew or anybody who had passed away from an AIDS related illness or or any of that. It was just you you came along to. It was a real community thing. Then it started to be that the numbers of beacons that we were having to make and like and get people to carry was getting ridiculous and we couldn't get [00:59:30] It was it was kind of like you were asking every person that came to the event to hold one, which was quite powerful visually but also logistically, just hard to comprehend. And it had started to become a bit like one of those events on Wellington's calendar that the public came along for a look at which maybe took a little bit away from what it was about. So we tried to. I think the technical word is small by it and make it more meaningful [01:00:00] again. And so to do that, as well as to manage that logistical thing of enough people to hold the beacons, we started to make floating candles, which were again pretty rudimentary. It was a plastic milk bottle with a candle concreted into the bottom. We had lots of volunteers help us put those together, and the numbers were phenomenal. And we used to recruit volunteers before the event to be sure we'd have enough people to place the floating candles on Frank K's Lagoon. We [01:00:30] did all sorts of stuff, like put a net under the bridge, um, get permission from the Harbour Master and volunteers to sweep them up later. So we didn't damage the environment, but, um, and they still looked beautiful and it was a lovely representation alongside the calling of names and all those things that made up the candlelight memorial. And then, I guess as things changed with treatment and, um, the health promote promotion messaging kind [01:01:00] of managed to slow the rate of infection. Um, and the yeah, the meds were meaning that people were living longer with HIV, um, some people that it became less a part of our everyday world. And so people maybe were like, Ah ah, maybe I won't go. It's cold tonight, you know. And so the numbers of people attending dropped and so perhaps [01:01:30] became, I guess maybe on the inside really important, obviously still, to many people, but to come together and publicly acknowledge it, there was just a shift, and I think those things kind of impacted it. And so the event became smaller and smaller, and part of it had always been, um, there was like we used to have a church service. It wasn't I don't know. Is it non denominational or interdenominational? [01:02:00] But it wasn't like any particular, um, focus. But that was like the how it would start. And then we would have the parade with the from there to the lagoon, where the candle light that was gonna be. And in the old days, we'd carry the beacons to there and they'd surround the lagoon, and then we'd have the ceremony. Um So as it got smaller, it became that of having just the the indoor, but [01:02:30] like whether it was in a church or a hall or those kind of things. And I know even now, you know, from year to year the attendance may be a very small group or a large crowd, just depending on what's going on in people's worlds and experience of people dying from AIDS related conditions or significant anniversaries and that kind of thing still a really important event. And, um and nice, that small finding it [01:03:00] didn't mean stopping it. Yeah, it's interesting. Just kind of, uh, looking at and charting how these events, um, kind of blossom and then kind of, um, small and depending on what the community actually needs at a particular time. And I guess my final question is kind of just going back to, um possibly the devotion parades. [01:03:30] It was 20 years, um, before another pride parade actually went through. Courtney Place went through the streets of inner Wellington, which was in 2017. I think it was. And I'm wondering if you can reflect on that 2017 parade and also, um, the, uh that came to out in the park. I think this year, um, how do they differ from the parades in 1997 and and the earlier ones? [01:04:00] Yeah. Um, I just, um sorry. Before I get to that, just what you're saying that about how things sort of blossom and and change size and shape. I think that's, um, illustrates quite awesomely, the community led response that we all have unwittingly, you know, um, had to various things that have happened throughout our our shared history. And, um [01:04:30] and it's kind of just hearing you say, that made me reflect and think, Well, that's great. That that these community events are community led and that they were then and in some situations, perhaps reactively, like reacting to the law reform, protest and that kind of stuff. Um, but equally, the law reform was community led, um, and and that that they occur proactively, too are really um, yeah. Thank you for saying that It was just nice to to think of it in that way. [01:05:00] Um, coming back to the parade stuff, Um, whilst it's like so 97 was the last in 2017 was the next time there were, um, a couple of parades that were part of Wellington Pride Festival prior to the 2017 1. And those were walking parades. So the I think the may have been wheels if [01:05:30] for people on, like, skates, roller blades. And there were, I think, in the 90 not 96. Gosh, got me all decades muddled up out here. But in the 2016 1, there were some of those, um, bikes with the sort of thing on front which we dropped a couple of drag queens in, you know. So there were walking parades. There was the one that went up Cuba Street, um, around Cuba, duper when it became out in the car park as well. [01:06:00] But the 2017 was the first one where we did road closure again. As as our communities. Um, the the difference. Did you say the similarity? What was it just reflecting on? I think that like I talked about in the earlier devotion ones like the first loved one. I was really mindful of people who are part of our community, just for whatever reason. But again, [01:06:30] on the back of that, it was so close to law reform and maybe for safety reasons, not being 100 Sure if they wanted to be a part of it, but definitely noticing them down there loving scene, it happening. And then some of those people joining in in other years. I think now there are, um, people who don't necessarily want to be a part of it. But it's part of our rainbow culture to go down and watch it, which is a different thing to not be a part of it. I think that [01:07:00] back in the earlier days, it was very, very community focused and community led. And sure, there were some allies and and and that involved, which was great because our community then, you know, um I know my mom and a lot of other people's moms, and we're a part of our community, you know, it wouldn't be the queer fair if you didn't see so and so's Mom, or it wouldn't Yeah, you know, Um, so they [01:07:30] were all involved then, too. The difference now is that it's gone to like going to night time. This year, I think, has made it a little less accessible for some of the younger people in our community. I know back in, um, 97 and that, like both Nick Tansley and Pauline Gillespie, who were working for that radio network at the time, were like, [01:08:00] we have to do this at night. We have to do this at night and for years, Um, Malcolm Vaughan, myself and Nick would talk about that, and we'd never get around to it. You know, it wasn't like we had to do it at night, and it wasn't like just because Auckland are it was just other things were happening. And I think that parade kind of thing had disappeared out of Wellington with devotion disappearing. Um, yeah, a nighttime parade is pretty neat. You can have all the different lighting effects and that kind of stuff. I think daytime [01:08:30] works awesomely because it makes it more accessible to younger members of our community to be involved. Um, but also it makes it more accessible to an even wider audience, you know, or or the wider Wellington communities because most of us are awake and out and about during the day. You know? Um not personally, not always on a weekend. But, um, I liked that last [01:09:00] this year rather early this year. Um, the people that were organising Wellington pride and out in the park realised that just a little ahead of it and so very quickly pulled together a which brought back the walking parade. And and it was about, I think, they said for the young and the young at heart, and it was about providing a really focused space for those people to participate. It's still I'm pretty sure that's going to happen again next year, and I think it's great [01:09:30] to do that. But it still feels a little other as well as honouring and including in whatever way we can to work around it. Yeah, I think the Pride Parade, also like internationally, has become a bit more of those that think the pink dollars, all that you know. It's become a a thing that a lot of organisations businesses will put in their corporate social responsibility policy. They'll put a little bit of sponsorship [01:10:00] money towards that they probably pay a whole lot more sponsorship to other sectors to get the same visibility. But they want to look like an ally. You know, they want our business, so it's not is meaningful to me anyway. And I'm I know you know, I've talked to others who it's not as meaningful a community event when it starts to look like that. But I think it's still great that we can have pride events happening. I think they're really [01:10:30] important and always will be. You know, we need to celebrate our culture and our communities and the communities that make up our community within that or else we'll lose them. You know, we don't want to assimilate. Think about, um, a thing I sometimes say in conversations with friends is remember when um, James thought the state that Maori [01:11:00] was in It's almost like we need to be careful or we're gonna need somebody to set up. We we got to remember that we have a valid and valuable culture and history, and to celebrate that and keep it alive rather than assimilate and and lose the special that that is.

IRN: 1240
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/phillip_peek.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004541
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089835
TITLE: Phillip Peek
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Phillip Peek
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; AIDS Support Network; Alison Laurie; Anti Springbok tour protest (1981); Aotearoa New Zealand; Bigot Busters; Bill Logan; Brett Sheppard; Bruce Burnett; Checkmate sauna (second site); Christianity; Daniel Fielding; David Hindley; Eyewitness news (television); HIV / AIDS; HIV stigma; HIV transmission; Homosexual Law Reform; Mark McKenna; Neil Anderson; Neil Costelloe; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; Patricia Bartlett; People; Peter Cuthbert; Phil Parkinson; Phillip Peek; Pink Triangle (magazine); Ray Sunbeam; Rob Lake; Salvation Army; Scripture Union Bookshop; Security intelligence protests (1977); Sun/Wakefield sauna (original site); Te Aro Park; Tony Katavich; Topp Twins; Wakefield sauna (second); Wellington; Wellington Town Hall; abortion; activism; cinema; condomless sex; condoms; cruising; fear; gay; graphic design; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; march; news; petition; police; posters; queer bashing; religion; saunas; self defence; sex-on-site venues; television; visibility; walk tour
DATE: 7 July 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Phillip Peek recalls working at the Sun sauna, a sex-on-site venue, in the mid-1970s and early 1980s and participating in homosexual law reform activities.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, the sun was located in Wakefield Street opposite town Hall. Um, it's now a hotel. But it was upstairs, um, next to the Scripture bookshop and below was a Chinese restaurant. I started going when I first arrived in Wellington in the Sydney five from Christchurch. And [00:00:30] I ended up being employed there as a full time day worker, which met in and, um, been on the desk and, you know, things that it entails. Um, and it was actually owned by two. Let's say straight, guys, um and they ran it, um, and ran it very well, actually, um, for some years. And then later on, [00:01:00] they sold it to the, um let's say the out empire in Auckland. Um, Brit Shepherd and Tony Kavi. Yeah. So we're talking the mid seventies. How did a gay sex on site venue, um, kind of operate because this is pre homosexual law reform. So was everything, like, on the down low, or how did it operate? Um, well, you paid you went in, uh, or the security door you [00:01:30] went through, which is locked. You couldn't just barge away. And, um, you basically had a locker where you took your clothes off and got a towel. Um, and, um there were cubicles, uh, for privacy there. Although they weren't didn't have doors on it. Just had tea in shower curtains in those days. Um, there was a a spa pool, and there was a dry [00:02:00] sauna, and there was some large rooms that were reasonably dark. But in those days, it was pretty well lit. It wasn't that dark. Except maybe the cubicle areas, uh, were a bit darker. It wasn't until it was sold to the out empire, Which things really changed with the lighting and the, um they made it a lot more Cruz and darker [00:02:30] and yeah, gay. If you had walked in in the early days, you wouldn't really know it was a gay sauna so much. Whereas it changed very much when out Empire bought it. Um, yeah. So in those very early days, it was still a gay sauna. But if you knew, you knew. And if you didn't, you didn't? Yeah, I guess so, Yeah. Was it? I mean, was it actually advertised as such? Or it was just people who were in the know to tell the truth. [00:03:00] I can't remember. I think it was more in the know. Um, I'm pretty sure it would have been on some of the gay literature international stuff, though. Circuits. But, um, how did you come across it? Um, I honestly can't remember how I first stumbled on it. Um, I just remember being there. Really? I must have been told by someone. Yeah, in terms of, uh, kind [00:03:30] of clientele coming to the premises. Because again, as I say, this is pre law reform. So were people openly talking about going to the sauna? Or was it one of these kind of undercover depends? There were a lot of the clientele during the day were, um, men who were in marriages who would come along during the day. And if you saw in the street. I mean, I just had this policy that I wouldn't say hello until someone else had acknowledged me. [00:04:00] I didn't want to upset the cart wheel, you know, Um, but, um, I tend to say hello to most people, even strangers when I'm cleaning the car or something in the street, you know? But, um, it was a bit underground then. Yeah, um, but if you were, um, in out gay circles. Of course you talked about it. Yeah. Yeah. The the noise [00:04:30] we're hearing in the background is Wellington's wind. It's like a very windy day. One day, one day. Yeah. So what about the police? Did the police ever kind of, um, hassle this sort of, um I worked at the sauna. I had two, times in my work there where I worked. And then I left and I came back, and during the time I left, it was raided. But the time [00:05:00] I was there, I can't remember it being, um any problems with the place? Yeah. Um, I never really talked to the owners. Then about what relationship they had with the police. Um, I'm sure they would have, but I don't quite know what that was. Yeah, it's It's a really interesting, um, kind [00:05:30] of situation. I guess the way that you're describing the first owners and that the sauna wasn't necessarily known as a gay cruising spot. I imagine there could have been quite a few misunderstandings for for for for, like, straight clientele or or was it Was it more kind of known than that? Um I think it was more known than that personally. I mean, you had to come upstairs to get there. It wasn't like it was right off the street. Um, [00:06:00] as it is now, with places like checkmate, which are right on the street where you've got to walk down a corridor. But you would have to pretty well, much know, I think because it was quite a flight of stairs to get there, Then you got to a landing, and there was either Scripture union or the sauna. And if you manage to get there and bomber Stoke, Um, yeah, I'm I'm [00:06:30] I'm sure it must have happened, but generally, you know, you you you would tell people, you know, if they were looking a little bit the world, I suppose. Yeah. In Scripture union. Um, So what is that? It was a Christian bookshop that we shared the same landing with on the first floor. And the relationship was, um yeah, I don't think they liked us very much. Um, it was quite bizarre. Really? [00:07:00] Yeah. He used to get some pretty, um, you know, lots of daggers, stairs, and that from one of the one of the women in particular who was a more senior woman who worked there. The manager there seemed too bad. Um, but yeah, it was It was pretty pretty tense at times. Yeah, the the actually, the other relationship we had with the restaurant downstairs. Which, um, it's the thing about a sauna. You never [00:07:30] You always try and get a ground floor with a sauna. You'll notice that, Chet, mate. And when it was the Wakefield before checkmate bought it, it's on the ground floor. And there's a good reason for that because water does travel. And many a time. I remember being called downstairs to the Chinese restaurant because there was water dripping in their S from a sparkle. Yeah. So, um, one [00:08:00] of those funny things that happened and yeah, water finds its own level. Um, can you go back to, uh, describing, um the kind of interior of of the sauna, I guess, um, pre, uh, the empire. The empire. So the first time you were working there? What? What kind of, um, decor. It's pretty bright. Um, from memory. It was, you know, pretty cream. [00:08:30] Um, they used to close it for two weeks every Christmas and actually paint everything and take all the water out of the son and redo it, so it was very, very well maintained. Um, that did change when the Empire bought it. It seemed to just always be open. And as things broke down, they would get fixed. Well, usually. But, um, it was very bright with light and very light with [00:09:00] colour. Um, And it wasn't that Cruz, uh, although things still happen there, but yeah, uh, a lot of the more common areas. And there was a reading area, if I remember, um, which obviously had to have light to read. But, um, it was a lot lighter and brighter. Yeah. When I'm thinking of sauna sea nowadays, we you know, we're talking about, [00:09:30] um, uh, kind of glory holes, dark areas, um, porn, um, apparatus? Uh, none of that. No, there was none of that. It was just a dry sauna. The spa pool. And there were was a back corridor with, like I said, cubicles. Just I think they had yellow, um, shower curtains on. Or that's what I remember. Maybe it wasn't that they were. They were just tea. Shower curtains on them. [00:10:00] Yeah. And what about when the empire took over How did it change? I. I think the first thing I remember was they put, um, shiny, reflective sort of, um, uh, plastic sort of paper all across the ceiling and stapled it up there. Um, and they put drop lights and black like long sort of black tins, or most of the cast lights down. And there were red lights. Um, there are I remember, [00:10:30] um Ah, yeah, Every everything got sort of painted black, and, um, the lights were completely dimmed. Um, so it became a lot crazier. Sleazier, crazier, um, which in some ways, it was good. In some ways, it was terrible. Was it it, Um, And they never closed to redo it. Um, like [00:11:00] the previous owners did over Christmas so that that wasn't sort of built in? Yeah. Were there other, um, six On-site venues in Wellington at the time? I'm trying to think when the, um, that gay cinema started in Dickson Street. I can't remember what year that started. Um, that had two cinemas there, one sort of straight and one sort of gay. And I think a lot of bits and pieces happened in the dark, I imagine. [00:11:30] But it was it wasn't. Yeah. So what was it like for you, uh, working in a gay sex on site venue? Had had you done that before? No, no, God, no. I sort of stumbled into the job. Um, the two guys I worked for were really good. Um, I worked there a couple of years, and then I remember giving them are quite a few months notice. And but she came and saw me in the holidays and offered [00:12:00] me, um this was unbeknown to me. It was obviously the out empire approached him to sell, and they were going to sell, and they offered me, um, for the next year or no. Next six months before the trend before the sale happened. They, um They said you're hopeless at savings, so we're gonna put $50 a week into your savings into a savings account, which you won't be able to touch until a year's time [00:12:30] or something like that, Which was brilliant. So, um and then, um, when the out empire bought it, I became manager for a while, and I stayed there. I think it might have been six months or a year, but that was it. Really Yeah. Um, what was the question again? You were asking me what it was like working there. Yeah, Um, the guys I worked for were great. They were They were really nice guys. Um um, pretty straight [00:13:00] up I. I had a lot of loyalty for them because they were really good to me. Um, they keep the place clean, well maintained, um, and they would just had a really good business sense. Yeah, I was I was, um yeah. Treated really well, So I I enjoyed working there. Yeah, it was good. And like I said, I I can't remember ever having any trouble with the police while I worked there. [00:13:30] Um and also it was, um II. I, um, had come up from Christchurch, um, where I'd left a apprenticeship and carpentry joinery because that's what I didn't know what to do unless school said dad said, Oh, become a carpenter. Boy, You know you won't go wrong there, but, um I, I guess, you know, realising that I was gay and wanting to do something a bit different. Um, [00:14:00] I sort of met someone in Christchurch, came up here, and it wasn't long after that that I ended up working at the sauna, so it was a real change for me. It was, um, freedom. I was meeting nice people, women and men. I've still got a good one of my best friends would be the friend I met about that time. She's still in my life, you know, a really good friend. In fact, I'm seeing her today with her daughter, who I've helped raise. [00:14:30] And she's 29 and buying her first car. So that's where we're heading. Yeah, but, um, it was a great place to work. Yeah. Yeah, because I made a lot of friends there, which, of course, led on to, um, the whole movement. Gay movement. Um, homosexual law reform. You know, um, so a lot of people I met and worked there were, in fact, gay activists Neil Anderson, Mark [00:15:00] McKenna, um, Neil Costello, Rob Lake. They all had their, um, part time work there. So, I, I, um, mixed in those sort of circles. And when I bought my first house on my own, um um, David Henley was one of my flatmates, and John Woolley and, um those other people would congregate because we're all sort of friends um, I [00:15:30] was more on the fringe or I didn't see myself as a gay activist, but I ended up on marches, and I ended up on Pink Triangle with my boyfriend at the time. But we were wearing masks, so you never know it was me, you know, one of the Mardi Gras type masks, I think. Yeah, I think it was for the devotion. One of the devotion dancers. Yeah. Yeah, but, um, yeah, it was a good place to work. Yeah, social. Very social for me. Yeah. One of the really hard things I find is in 2018, [00:16:00] looking back and trying to imagine what it must have been like in the late seventies, early eighties, where you did have this kind of groundswell of political activism. Can you paint a picture for me of of the kind of feeling at the time that what period of seventies or eighties? Late seventies early eighties. Well, it was a it was, um you you knew that if you're in bed with someone, a guy, you know, you [00:16:30] you know, the the door could be broken down basically at any stage, and, um, that not that you'd dwelt on it, but it was always there. Um, so it was a lot more publicly publicly probably frowned upon after the law reform. Um, it seemed to give more of a tick to it generally. And, um, I think that really helped. Um [00:17:00] I just remember, um, being with her boyfriend in the eighties and how that felt before and after law reform. And there was a difference. I remember. I remember the night the law reform went through, and I was at parliament, but I pop popped over to get some fish and chips because I was starving. And when I got back, it had gone through. I missed it. Um, so it felt different going home that night. I actually thought, this is This is [00:17:30] neat. You know, this is really neat. It did feel quite different. Yeah, was there is a sense of anticipation that things were changing because, I mean, for so many years prior to that, things hadn't really kind of moved forward. Well, yeah, I mean, I, I actually I actually think the whole, um, aids epidemic in many ways helped that cause because it aired the whole issue. There was such a negative response [00:18:00] from the anti the Salvation Army and fundamentalist groups out there. And it was just vicious. Um, and just getting that to the public, the presentation of the anti, um, signatures to parliament, The Nuremberg rally we call it was over the top. And that sort of backfired on them, I think. [00:18:30] But yeah, You, um, mentioned AIDS, and I'm wondering, um, that kind of came out in the early eighties. It was being into kind of public consciousness. And just a little bit later, in New Zealand, when did you first hear about AIDS? And and can you recall what that was? Yeah. Um, I'm sure I must have heard it pre 84 a wee bit, but it never really [00:19:00] hit home until I came back. I was in Sydney visiting my sister in 1984. I think it was maybe in the winter and the day I got back, I was visiting some friends on the buses. I used to drive buses, and, um um, up to about 84. I was driving in Sydney 9 84 and and I went to visit them, and they had a Time magazine there and it was. The whole cover was AIDS. And it hit me like a [00:19:30] sledge hammer because, um, I've been in Sydney for 18 days and had a bit of fun. Um, it was pretty restrained, actually. Um, but I, um I came back, and that's when it really hit home. I thought, Oh, my goodness. Yeah, yeah. Um, so that's when it really hit home for me. Yeah. 1984. Yeah. Yeah. Was was where it hit. Yeah. Um, [00:20:00] yeah. Can you recall what the, um feeling was like in the gay community in Wellington? Oh, it's really scary. Um, from what I remember, um, I mean, they were sitting up. I think I've joined the aid support network to we. We were expecting lots and lots of cases coming back from overseas. Um, and [00:20:30] we sort of there was home help in all different areas of that, um, looking after people. So we were thinking what's going to happen? How we're going to help them? Um, you just didn't know much about the, um, virus itself because you didn't know how it's transmitted. Yeah, how easy it was to catch. Um, I just remember people talking about toilet seats and, you know, um, washing toilet seats [00:21:00] after anyone who was HIV positive or that, you know, they didn't really know what whether what HIV positive and full blown aids was or we didn't you know, to start with. Anyway, it was all it was all new. Yeah, it was scary. I mean, it's like, if you imagine in early, later times the bird flu and all that sort of thing you just didn't know it was and not known is quite scary, you know? Yeah, it was very scary. Do you think it, [00:21:30] um, changed people's sexual behaviours in in those early days? Oh, yeah, it did. It did. Because you learned how to love rubber. Basically, and that was really hard. It was a really hard learning experience trying to use condoms and like, condoms because they're hideous things. Yeah. Um, but, um, yeah, it was certainly a learning experience for those who got through it a lot. Didn't you know? Yeah. [00:22:00] It also brought out the good in the community. And I'm thinking of of, you know, there are a number of, um, kind of high high profile activists that actually really stepped up. Yeah. Um people like Bruce Burnett. Um, in Wellington, I guess. Paul Parkinson and Bill Logan. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah, it was It was, um there was sort of heroes out there, I guess. Um, and I remember [00:22:30] hearing Alison Laurie talk, and she was fantastic. Um, yeah, um, just hearing the top twins sing even, you know, having sort of people like that and Lloyd Scott getting up on the stage and talking. Um, so was this during the Was it the bigger busters rally in? Was it 85? That would be probably about right from memory. The old town, the old Town hall year year. Uh, it was great to have, [00:23:00] uh, those people, uh, standing up in front of everyone because it was a different time. It's different than now. So how was AIDS and homosexual law reform and how how did that kind of intertwine? What were the Because it was happening at the same time, I think, I think, because it I think because publicly, it sort of air it so much. And everyone had an opinion. It was like the 81 to you, either for or against it. And it was a bit like that, uh, [00:23:30] you had people who were against it collecting signatures, little old ladies collecting signatures on card tables outside the supermarkets in Newtown and things like that. And I mean, they had no idea what they were doing. They had, I mean, and some of the, um, gay activists and, um, gay friendly people would go up to them and talk to them and say, Do you really know what you're doing? And and a lot of them had no idea, you know, they were sent out there to do their bit and collect [00:24:00] signatures. And, um yeah, sorry, I'm a little bit off track there. What were you What was the question again? Just just looking at how AIDS and and homosexual reform were around the same time. I mean, I, I think the fact that it was, um, the AIDS thing happened then I think looking back, it was quite a positive thing for the law reform because it made people [00:24:30] it made people face homosexuality, which, and and without that, they probably wouldn't have unless it was in the immediate immediate sphere, like in their family. Um, I think it was a positive thing in that regard. I mean, hideous, hideous virus. No mistake in that. So many people have died. Yeah, but I think it was for the Joe public. It was actually quite good because everyone had an opinion. Um, [00:25:00] there was that whole idea of, um if if if you're not visible, if you if you go underground, it's not gonna help solve the disease. It's better to be upfront. It's better to find out whether you're HIV positive and, you know, be treated early detection, um, preventative measures. If if If you're not talking about it, if you're not [00:25:30] talking to people about how to have safe sex and all that, if that's not if that's not an option, you just put it underground. And, you know, I guess that's how I feel about abortion, too. Yeah. Did this greater degree of, uh, visibility almost nightly on the on on the news? Um, did that have an, um what kind of impact did it have [00:26:00] on, um, kind of gay men? I think some gay men that probably push him back in the closet. It was too scary. Um, if you're coming out and you're looking at all that, it would have been really scary for a lot of people. But I think for others, it was It was really good, because again, it it put faces to, um, gay men. Lesbian woman. Um, and [00:26:30] I think that was great. I mean, I just remember, you know, I mean, like I said, listening to Alison Lari speaking, thinking Wow, that's impressive. Yeah, And when you have people like Bill Logan standing up and talking and, um, you know, Phil Parkinson having a guy Patricia Bartlett on the radio, who said some horrible things about gay men, you know, um, [00:27:00] and here, Phil Parkinson, who was so methodical and could take her on really well, so I think it was, you know, I mean, basically, you had some real heroes out there life. That's how I found it. I was I was really impressed with some of the people out there talking. Um, it was very positive. Positive for me. I'm sure it would have been positive for a lot of people coming out already out. Um, [00:27:30] And then, of course, families of, um came in. There's been a woman. There are a lot of them talking too, So yeah, it really aired the subject. It was almost too weird. I think people got sick of it after a while. Like anything. It was just Yeah, bit over the top, but yeah, it was good. I, I think I've heard other interviews where people have talked about, uh, possibly an increase in, um, suicide [00:28:00] of gay men, but also in, um, an increase in queer bashings. Um, did that Do you recall any of those things? Certainly. I don't know about the, um, increase in suicides. Um, but the queer bashing did happen. There were a lot more attacks seem seem to be going on, um, at the time. And, um, I remember being part of a self [00:28:30] defence group for gay men that we started and did, and ended up being interviewed on eye witness programme, which ultimately lead to me coming out to the rest of my family before it. I thought there was a sensible thing to do. Yeah, So eyewitness was AAA television current affairs programme. I think it was eye witness. It was one of those current affairs programmes. Yeah. Yeah, and they interviewed us a group of gay men and why we were doing that and yeah, [00:29:00] So who else was interviewed? It was gay defence for self defence for gay men. And it was I remember Rob Lake and Neil Costello were part of that. I can't remember who else was in it, but yeah, and so this was going to get broadcast on National TV. And so you hadn't You weren't actually out to parts of your family. Yeah, I wasn't out to everyone in the family, so Yeah, I let them know before that aired. [00:29:30] Otherwise it would have been a bit of a It would have been hard for them, I think. And how did they How did they respond? Um, really good. I only got one negative response, and that was from my sister in law. Um, and it was from my, um my older brother's former wife, who I'd still let know by a letter by letter. And, um, that was a little bit of a negative response. [00:30:00] Not so much from a gay anger. More. You know what's what's the issue? You never sort of supported me when my marriage broke up sort of thing, so Yeah, but that's fair enough too, actually, but, um, otherwise a very positive response from the rest of the family. It was great. Yeah, I was really pleased. And And after it aired, Um, did you get much response from the public? No, not not really. Not really. Most most of I. I was pretty [00:30:30] out to most of my friends. Um, and I wasn't I didn't have family around me in Wellington. They were all in other areas, but, um, they were supportive. Yeah, I think, um, one of my young nephews had said to my sister when it aired, and they saw me on TV that his his comment was Oh, well, Uncle Phil, get AIDS. Now, that was sort of that was from a, you know, seven [00:31:00] year old or something. Um, but that was what the thinking was for young kids, and I thought they equated it with AIDS. Gay aids. You know, I think I've seen, uh, some photos of some of the reform marches in Wellington. And there is, um, a couple of guys wearing, um, gay plus gay equals aids T shirts. Um, do do you remember those? There was a couple of young chaps that were walking around [00:31:30] with those kind of t-shirts. No I. I don't, Actually. Yeah. Did you go on on, um, reform marches? Yeah. Yeah, I did. Go on. Um, one or two year year. Uh, I remember painting signs, Um, in the house I lived in with, um, some of those people we mentioned before. Um, yeah, marching down the street. Yeah. And how were people, uh, watching those [00:32:00] marches? How did how did they react? Um, now and again, there are people heckling. Um, it was it was great. They were marching down with a lot of people because it was really scary still, Um, I mean, even though I was out, I still found it really scary. I still would today if under those circumstances, probably, But, um because when [00:32:30] you get someone yelling and yelling abuse at you, it is a bit frightening. Um, I do remember the, um, the big march through town in Pigeon Park, and when it started dispersing a group of, um, very good looking straight guys. I mean, I think there were two brothers in particular who are very good looking, and they were the nastiest, too. They were screaming abuse and really violent. And I just remember thinking My God, you guys [00:33:00] are good looking, but you are nasty, you know? And, um, just walking through Pigeon Park now and again. Still, it still comes back to me, and I sort of send shivers down my spine because it was it was awful. Really awful. Yeah. Yeah, it was awful, actually. Yeah, there were also, um, anti reform marches. And And I think there was a was an impromptu Salvation Army one. Yeah. Do [00:33:30] you recall that? Yeah, yeah, I do. Um, I just remember them walking down Wakefield Street I. I wasn't there for that, but, um, my boss at the time who, um that was the second time I came back and worked at, um Well, what used to be sort of turned into, I think the Wakefield when the Empire had A and Ray, um, Sunbeam, much to his credit, joined [00:34:00] in, um, pretending to be a Salvation Army marcher. And he had gone to the, um, Salvation Army and bought some of the emblems and and, um, made up his own uniform. And and during the march, he unfurled this flag and this banner, which was very pro gay, and, uh, it took them a long time to realise he wasn't among them, But I thought that was really cool. Go on your right. And And [00:34:30] you mentioned before, um uh, Neil Costello. Um, who was a contemporary of yours? Um, tell me about Neil. Yeah. I didn't really know Neil that. Well, um, he was He was a really funny guy. Um, I. I thought he was a lovely guy. Actually. He was so clever with his art work. Um, I think he had a graphic design sort of background. Maybe, but he did a lot of the, um [00:35:00] um posters for the rallies and marches and things, and they were just I just remember being absolutely awed by them. They were just beautiful. Um, some of them quite deco looking at art to go looking. Um, but yeah, Very, very clever. Very clever guy. Yeah, um, very crazy sort of guy. Easy going guy full of smiles. Yeah. And like I said, he he worked at the [00:35:30] sauna part time as well. So yeah. Now, you and I actually met on a rainbow walk tour just a couple of weeks ago, and, um uh, we at the time, um, we were doing a little presentation on Neil. And I wonder, how was that for you? Because, I mean, we're talking about somebody that was a contemporary of yours. And now they're in a history walk. Did that. Yeah, it was a bit bizarre. [00:36:00] Um, but, actually, um, the walk when we were honoured I mean, I obviously was the oldest person honoured. And it was it was quite bizarre for me because I didn't know what period the war was going to be covering. What? Um, yeah, period in history. So it was the period I was here for It was my thirties. Um, and [00:36:30] it was probably my more sort of, um, political, um, march in the streets of a period. It was It wasn't just the gay marches I was on. I was on pro abortion. I was on. I was very much marching during the 81 tour against a tour, um, SI S march. So yeah, and then to see Neil's picture there was was quite bizarre. Um, but I felt like there [00:37:00] were other people who maybe were just as large as life too, You know Mark Anderson. He was pretty out there. You know, his boyfriend at the time, Mark McKenna, um, and Rob Lake, you know, um, yeah, but yeah, it was quite neat. It was quite a shock scene in there because he's no longer with us. Neil Costello. But, um I didn't know for some years what happened to him was he did go overseas, and [00:37:30] he just seemed to disappear off the face of the earth. You know, as it happens, one of one of the stories uh, we talked about with Neil was, um how he now has a memorial in the New Zealand AIDS Memorial quilt. Uh, he passed away in the early 19 nineties. Um, now, the AIDS memorial quilt was established by Wellington and Daniel Fielding. Um, did you know Daniel and his partner Peter, um, to say hello to, [00:38:00] But that's about all. Really? Yeah. I didn't really know them that well, No, I knew who they were, especially Daniel Fielding. But, um, other than that, I knew he was HIV positive, but, um, I didn't know much more about him. Really? Yeah. Ju just finally, Phil, um, I wonder if you could reflect back on, let say the last 30 40 years [00:38:30] and look at what the biggest changes have been for kind of rainbow gay culture and and maybe what still needs to be addressed? Ah, biggest changes, I suppose, is just being out, Um, and having, um, the human rights that go with it so you can't be kicked out of flats and discriminated in the workplace [00:39:00] as far as going forward from there? Well, I think there's still gay bashing and things. It's really hard to know how that would change because some people are just, uh, no, they find the whole gay and just yeah, but I'm really happy with with the progress that's been made in my time, I think it's been brilliant. Um um, but being [00:39:30] visible has been a very important step for me, and I think it's a good thing the way to go to be visible. Um, I suppose I'd probably say that, um, talking about what needs to be done more, I think we're we're doing all right. But I think you still have to be very vigilant that you keep up [00:40:00] with all those things because they can. Also, even though we've got a lot of those rights now that can be taken away from you, you only have to look at Donald Trump and what's he doing? You know, and with the armed forces and that, and it can be itched away as well. So, like democracy, too. You got to safeguard it by keeping up with what's going on. Um, watching, Yeah. Watching how it develops and making sure you keep [00:40:30] abreast of, um, things to safeguard your rights, Yeah.

IRN: 1237
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/art_craft_and_the_aids_crisis_a_panel_discussion.html
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089834
TITLE: Art, Craft and the AIDS Crisis - a panel discussion
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ann Packer; David Do; Julia Craig; Kevin Jensen; Richard Benge; Simon Gennard
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; 2010s; AIDS Memorial Quilt; AIDS Support Network; AIDS at Home (exhibition); AIDS orphan; Act Up; Ann Packer; Aotearoa New Zealand; Art AIDS America (exhibition); Artists Alliance; Arts Access Aotearoa; Arts Council of New Zealand; Auckland Art Gallery; BDSM; Beacons of Hope (Wellington); Brendan Pole; CD4 count; CD4 threshold; Candlelight Memorials; Catherine Tizard; Charlie Tredway; Cleve Jones; Denny Moran; Derek Jarman; Dowse Art Museum; Ektachrome Archive; Felix Gonzalez-Torres; Gee's Bend (USA); HIV / AIDS; HIV / AIDS; HIV education; HIV stigma; House of LaBeija; How to Survive a Plague (documentary); Ian Smith; Ian Williams; Implicated and Immune (exhibition); Jean Stewart; John Chorlton; John Eade; Julia Craig; Justin Smith; Keith Gray; Kevin Jensen; Kia LaBeija; Kiki Smith; Leigh Teirawhiti Ransfield; Liberace; Lower Hutt; Lyle Ashton Harris; Malcolm Harrison; Manners Mall; Michael Fowler Centre; Michael McCabe; Mr Gay New Zealand; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; NAMES Project; NZAF Ā whina Centre; Nelson; New York City; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; Nicki Eddy; Peter Cuthbert; Pharmaceutical Management Agency (Pharmac); PrEP (Pre-Exposure Prophylaxis); Red Spill (installation); Richard Benge; Rob Calder; Robert Mapplethorpe; Rodger Wright; Romania; Ron Athey; Rudi ten Have; Rudolf Nureyev; San Francisco; Simon Gennard; Simon Morley; Sleeping Arrangements (exhibition, 2018); Suzanne Lacy; Ted Kerr; Terry Stringer; The Crystal Quilt; United States of America; University of Auckland; Washington D. C.; Welby Ings; Wellington; Wellington Botanic Gardens; Wellington Railway Station; Westfield Mall; Window Gallery (Auckland); World AIDS Day; Zac Langdon-Pole; academia; activism; aidsquilt. org. nz; antiretroviral drugs; apathy; artist; arts; breast feeding; burnout; cremation; death; drug trial; exhibition; gay; grave; grief; healing; heirloom; homosexual; karanga; media; memorial; needle exchange programme; people of colour; photography; poofter; pridenz. com; protease inhibitors; quilt; remembrance; research; ritual; school; sewing; sex; sex work; sexual histories (University of Auckland paper); stigma; storytelling; tangata whenua; television; undetectable viral load; unfolding; voguing; working bee
DATE: 26 May 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Dowse Art Museum, 45 Laings Road, Hutt Central, Lower Hutt
CONTEXT: Audio from the panel discussion Art, Craft and the AIDS Crisis held at the Dowse Art Museum, Lower Hutt on 26 May 2018. The event was chaired by Simon Gennard, 2017 Blumhardt Foundation/Creative New Zealand Curatorial Intern and curator of Sleeping Arrangements and featured panelists Kevin Jensen, Richard Benge and Julia Craig. A special thank you to the Dowse Art Museum and participants for allowing this event to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, my name is Simon. Jen. And I was the, um, CN intern here, uh, last year and I curated sleeping arrangements as part of my internship. Um, and this event kind of jumps off some of the themes of the show. The show brings together four artists from three generations, all of whom were impacted differently, um, to different degrees in different ways by the HIV and AIDS crisis in the early 19 nineties. Um, and this kind of expands on [00:00:30] some of the themes, Um, and in particular, looks at the creative responses to the crisis in particular, um, the AIDS. Um, So we've got three speakers here today, So, um Richard Bang, um, Kevin Jensen and Julia Craig, and I'll introduce them in a little more detail. Um, in a second. Um, but I also want to introduce, uh, our friends from the New Zealand AIDS Foundation as well. So, um, we've invited me here today basically to acknowledge that the crisis isn't over and that we're talking about the history of HIV [00:01:00] and a I in New Zealand. But, um, it's very much, uh, a real life really existing thing. Um, happening now. Um, So I just want to thank them for the work that they've done over the past 30 years in terms of advocacy and support, um, and outreach and also acknowledge some of their recent, um, successes, which I thought I would remember. But I'm gonna have to read, um, So they recently, um, successfully advocated for the removal of CD four thresholds, which means it's, um, much easier for HIV positive people to access medicines earlier. Now, [00:01:30] um, they've also advocated for the approval of, um, prep in New Zealand. Um, it's widely available now, um, and they're also highlighting, um, undetectable viable loads, which, um, is an attempt to reduce stigma around positive people. Um, and encourage, um, prevention as well. Um, so they're available for informal conversation after the talk is over. Um, and I also want to thank them again for being here, And we've also got, um, Gareth Watkins here from Pride and Z, and he's gonna be recording the talk. Um, and [00:02:00] I'd all encourage you to check out the pride NZ website. Um, after the talk is over, it's an incredible resource with an incredible archive of, um, queer stories from a and I'm really grateful for the work that Gareth has done. So thank you for being here. Um, I'll now just introduce our three speakers. And then after that, they will, um, talk for about five minutes each about the work that they've done, Um, and why they're here. Um, and then I'll ask a few questions, and then I'll open it out to the audience for you to ask questions as well. So, uh, first up is Richard Bang. Um, So between 1991 [00:02:30] and 1993 Richard worked at the AIDS prevention events team operating out of the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, Um, a centre in Wellington. Uh, during this time, he was part of the unveiling of the New Zealand New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt in Wellington in 1993. And since then, uh, Richard has worked as an independent events and communications specialist and as cultural specialist for the US Embassy in Wellington, and he's currently executive director of Arts Access, which is an NGO, um, nationally recognised as the advocate for accessibility [00:03:00] and inclusion and arts and culture for all people in a, um, Julia Craig is currently undertaking her master's in art history at the University of Auckland researching artistic production around AIDS and HIV. Um, she's a curator at Window Gallery as well, um, and has held positions at Artist Alliance New Zealand at Venice and connect the dots. Um Charitable Trust. Kevin Jensen has been involved in the Nelson HIV AIDS Support Network since the early 19 nineties. And, [00:03:30] um, the New Zealand AIDS quilt. Um, since late 1994 in 2012, he assisted the Museum of New Zealand to papa, um, assessing of the quilts into their collection and now maintains the quilts website as a document, um, a living document of the quilt. Um, and he was also recognised in 2005 by the New Zealand AIDS Foundation for his work and was given a lifetime membership of the foundation. Um, I'll make a start with, uh as I always [00:04:00] do when I address any group. Um, it's normally school Children. Secondary school Children are the most of that I've addressed with the difference between HIV and A. I DS. They're often referred to in the one breath as being the same. They're not. HIV is a virus which depletes the immune system of the body when the immune system gets sufficiently low. There are 26 particular [00:04:30] illnesses the opportunistic illnesses which, when they become established in the body, are very, very hard to treat. Once you get two of these illnesses and you have HIV, you are said to have a DS. The United States goes one further and says, once your, um, CD four cell count, which is your white cell count for [00:05:00] the immune system goes below 200. That becomes age defining as well. The Americans are the only ones that do that. Um, early on in the in the pandemic, once someone died of, uh, what generally becomes known as dying of AIDS. It was instant cremation. Body was cremated within 24 hours of death maximum, no time [00:05:30] for funeral. Nothing Health department were there, took the body cremated and then the following day handed back the ashes. So there's a lot of, um, emotional problems arose there around grieving in the mid 19 eighties. Now that business with instant cremation is worldwide practise. It still happens here in New Zealand today, but not very [00:06:00] often. Thankfully, New Zealand was the very first country in the world that stopped that practise and treated someone who died with, uh, someone who had AIDS who died. They were not cremated. They were treated as an ordinary, everyday death. Um, that is now gradually spreading throughout the world. The the 1st 10 that died in New Zealand were automatic cremations. From then on, it wasn't. [00:06:30] The difference is if the words HIV or a I DS appears on the death certificate. It is instant cremation if they do not appear on the death certificate that treated as an ordinary death. Now with that, in the 19 eighties mid 19 eighties, there was an American known as Cleve Jones, who was having a lot of trouble dealing with the come to terms with the loss of his partner. And [00:07:00] he basically the story that I was told by someone who had had a lot to do with him. Was he basically one day he got a length of material, take it to the fence, attacked it with some spray cans of paint, and he started feeling to take out of this frustration and everything and started feeling so much better for it. And from that it grew into the quilts, Um, or the names project, as it's known as in the United States. [00:07:30] UM, it was launched in June 1987 with its very first display, with 40 panels on display. Four months later, there's a display outside the White House in Washington DC, with 1920 panels on display. Now each of those white rectangles on that screen is made up of four blocks. [00:08:00] Now the panels are 6 ft by three, the international standard grave plot size. Because of the instant cremation for the vast majority of people, those are the nearest you'll ever get to a grave for them. With the they've joined together into, uh, Block, eight of them joined to make a block. Four blocks, joined together, created one of those rectangles. This is from another display [00:08:30] where the white there's actually a white walkway between them. In the early I think it was 1992 93. There was an a display in Washington DC again. It was the last big full display of the American Quilt, which is based in San Francisco. It took 17 full trains to take the quilt to Washington DC because of the size of it [00:09:00] It's huge. They had people reading the names 24 hours a day. It took 3. 5 days. The, uh, there are 42 countries in the world that have a quilt project. The Australian one is the largest one in the world outside the United States. It is now housed in the Powerhouse Museum in Sydney. Um, it was first [00:09:30] displayed on World AIDS Day, the first of December 1988. It had 35 panels. It's now, I think, from memory, something like 100 and something blocks. The New Zealand quilt is made up of 100 and eight single and two double panels, which have been sewn together and forms 16 blocks. There are also 12 other individual panels. The very first panel [00:10:00] for um, New Zealand. That is the very first, uh, panel that was made for the New Zealand quilt for Peter in December 1988. On the fifth of October 1991 the first New Zealand unfolding of the quilt took place in the Auckland Art Gallery. There were 32 panels, and that was unfolded in the presence of the Governor General at the time, Dame Catherine [00:10:30] Taz There is and also, um, the convenor of the Australian quilt who actually brought several blocks of the Australian quilt over with her. Then in 2010, I created the, um, the quilt website. And as as, uh, Simon mentioned as a living ongoing memorial for it because, [00:11:00] um, it is deteriorating because of all the mount masses of folding and unfolding and places that's been put onto onto grass onto concrete and dirty floors. You name it. It's just about being there. And so it's not good for the preservation of a of a quilt. So they've, uh uh, Michael Bancroft got to and negotiated with Papa. [00:11:30] And between the two of us, Michael and I, we got the quilts and all the documentation associated with it ready for presentation to Papa six years ago this month on the third of May 2012, it was presented to te papa, and it's now lodged in te papa for safekeeping and with, uh, displays when, uh, space and their display programme permits [00:12:00] been used. The quilts have actually been used as models for various other uh, things around the world, as well as different illnesses. and that, like for American armed forces killed in the Iraqi war and various things like that, now there's a couple of them in particular I'd like to mention, um, if you could go back to that one. That is the what's known as the block of the New Zealand quilt. It's block [00:12:30] number seven. The quilt was taken at the time, was taken on a tour of Northland, and while they were on the they actually got together and they sewed the panels together to form that block. There's one in particular, up on the very top, right? I think, for Ian. When they were doing it, they looked at. They saw the [00:13:00] initials, the letter and down the left hand side of it. And the people said, What's that? This is family whose panel is next to them and want to know the significance of the letters ins and ends into genealogy. And those are the initials of his ancestors going back generation by generation. And it turned out that when they very first settled in Northland, Ian's family purchased land [00:13:30] from family, brought the two families together again over 100 years later. Next one, please John's one. Now, this is one. I've had a lot of my, um, involvement in the making of it. Um, John's father came to me one day with the support network. His son John had died in England [00:14:00] and that, and, um, we ended up to cut a long story short. The support network got together and help Roy make a panel for John, which was presented to the quilt in 1999. The It tells that, like most of the panels, they do tell a story, um, or have some aspect of his life. He was born in Nelson, raised in Auckland, loved travelling the world, died in England. [00:14:30] He he was a very keen gardener. Subsequently, the you've got the and the English Rose, he liked origami. There is actually an origami, um, bird on there, and it does actually open out as it's unfolded. Um, it was also indicate this growing the same as his father is in the parties. And also which is [00:15:00] recognise it by the wine glass and great with the music. With the the wine glass, there's one corner at the bottom left hand corner that just wouldn't stay put. So the person whose house that we were in having a working bee and going to the next one. There we are. Yes, I do look a lot younger there. Me on the very right, Um, and the the chap in the blue shirt in the middle there is Roy. That is, um, John's [00:15:30] father. Shortly after that photo was taken, the person who owned his house we were in Who's got a head down there? She, um, said, I know what to do. We'll get some super glue. Forget all about the fact that this material and super glue goes straight through. Material went to lift it off. We took a heap of varnish off the oak table with us. [00:16:00] That bit of varnish is still there. That panel has not been incorporated into one of the blocks yet. It's one of the 12 loose panels. Um, going to the next one in in, uh, you might have heard of well, be S the famous these, uh, great artist. He created this for his first lover. Some of the things that are and [00:16:30] it they it's on Calico. There's some of the paintings and that in the corners are oil. And that so things crack specifically done. So things will crack with time and that and memories do fade. But at the same time, his image is actually done in coffee. So in photos and coffee so that, uh, it gives a softer texture and it will not crack or diminish over time. [00:17:00] There's also a bit of the old farm to play around, framing it and off the tractor and the bits of his old works, and that now there's the next one 1994 for World AIDS Day. The panel, the committee that looked after the quilt, had the problem. Well, just who does it do we know who died of AIDS? And so they [00:17:30] created this block. There is a whole block, 12 ft by 12 ft, specifically mentioning people from around the world who have died as a result of AIDS or HIV infection. Um, and people like the photographer Richard Maplethorpe, the um, ballerina or ballet dancer, not a ballerina, ballet dancer. Rudolph No, um, various actors, film director Eric Jarman, and that there's [00:18:00] activists there. Musicians, Liberace is there, all mentioned on the and there are blank one bits here for people to be added later, another one panel for Roger Wright. The background of that was actually made up of the seats of the backside of Pierce of Roger's jeans. Roger was the one of the people instrumental for [00:18:30] introducing a needle exchange scheme into New Zealand for reducing um harm for harm reduction amongst the needle injecting drug users in the country. Next one. A couple, John and Rudy. John is a New Zealander. Rudy was a Dutchman who settled in New Zealand. People who make that is the two panels joined together to make it a double panel After, [00:19:00] um, they died. The people who made the um, the panels actually made another one of Rudy's side and sent it to Rudy's parents. And it's now on Block 10 of the Dutch quilt. Um, those of you who have seen the exhibition upstairs will have seen the the panel there. Uh, for [00:19:30] Simon, it's an oversized panel. And if we could jump to the next one, please. That is the version that appears on the New Zealand quilt. The panel upstairs. It's got the outline of the figures outlined in red. There, they're not at a and the also you would have noticed to the upstairs The, [00:20:00] um the poem on the wall by initially meant, uh, spoken or spoken by Brenton Pole. So if we can have the next one Thank you. That is Brendan's panel on the New Zealand quilt made by his sister. Thank you so much. Kevin. Um, should we move on to Richard now? Uh, thank you very much for the introduction. And, [00:20:30] uh, Kevin, it's an honour to be following you. Um, from what you've done, I need to start, uh, my part of today honouring the lovers who I lost who don't have quilts. 11 has a quilt. Um, so I'd like to remember Ian Smith and [00:21:00] Lee Rans Field and Justin Smith and my beloved Keith Grey, who before he got sick, took me to the airport in London and said, You've learned everything you need to learn and the UK now go back to Australia and New Zealand and go to university and be a teacher [00:21:30] and do everything that you need to do. So when I look at the quilts, Kevin, I remember those beloved men. And then I had the opportunity of coming to Wellington and working for the AIDS Foundation in 1991. Hm. And I've got friends in the audience now who remember the days when we didn't know what hit [00:22:00] us, as Kevin is referring to. We didn't know who was going to die next. We didn't know who was sick next. There was a very strong sense of urgency, emergency guilt, shame, fear, shock loss and grief and no support [00:22:30] from the national context. The government, sort of at that stage, didn't know what the heck was going on. The the were dying, and that's sort of OK. They can. They can handle that. There's a problem anyway. Too much sex, whatever they're doing. And what happens internationally is that when terrible things happen to people like when tragedy happens in communities, people [00:23:00] get together. When there's no cure, when there's no answers and there's nothing else to do, you hold on to one another, and it creates groupings and holdings and doings. People start to do stuff. And so when the quilt the first quilt was made, which Kevin referred to, [00:23:30] was an expression of loss and grief, but above all, the need to remember that his lover ever lived because if his body's been taken away and cremated within minutes. What do you do with that? You have to have something to hold [00:24:00] on to. So I'm internally grateful to the first quilt maker and all the coordinators like you who've gone forward at a time when there was not the wonderful retroviral drugs that we have now. And the campaigns and the ability to be, uh, non transmit you you don't transmit anymore. You can't get it if you haven't got it. All that sort of stuff. In the days [00:24:30] when this was going on, people didn't know if you could catch HIV by sitting on the same toilet or living together or kissing or whatever. So it's interesting that in history, quilting has been about storytelling and about recalling so we don't forget. And quilts in America and other countries are I'm sure [00:25:00] you'll talk about this. Um, Julia, um are about heirlooms my own. In my own family. My daughter has the most beautiful quilt that was made by her godmother, and it something that I treasure forever, because it's to do with the heritage of the family. The significant thing that Kevin also mentioned is that a quilt in the [00:25:30] names project or the New Zealand Quilt Project is the size of a grave. But a quilt is something you put on a bed, so you get two things with the AIDS quilt project. You get the finality of death but the cosiness of sleep. So that's how we can get to work on it together. Working bees [00:26:00] would get together and families and friends would come together often people that didn't know one another, Parents would suddenly meet all the friends of a man or woman who died of AIDS in New Zealand and get together and start sowing. A lot of people didn't know how to sew, so they glued or they used paint or they used clips or whatever, and a lot of healing was done through [00:26:30] the forming of a quilt. So in each quilt, in preserving the name of someone who's lost becomes a story of togetherness and healing and moving forward. So the AIDS projects do a lot, did a lot and still do do a lot for healing. And the work of the quilt [00:27:00] when it was shown in New Zealand was a very effective HIV and AIDS awareness project. So not only was it the putting to bed, the burial, the grief space. But then it had work to do. And Kevin, you were one of the people that made sure it did its work so that our men [00:27:30] and women who had lost became part of creating the future. So I was in Wellington in 19. Whenever I can't even remember when it was actually when Simon rang me and said, Could you do this? I thought, I'm not gonna remember a thing here, so I had to dig them into my memory. And our friend Peter in Sydney has sent us some images of what happened in Wellington. So this is an unveiling of a quilt, Uh, when it visits a city or a town and it has a whole lot of protocol and ceremony [00:28:00] around it, because rightfully so, we are honouring our departed, and we each time the quilt gets opened it, we reawaken them. So in our, uh, for our you don't just walk into a graveyard and start to thump around you gently wake up the memory and you honour the people who've died. And so each quilt would be brought into a room folded up placed into the space, and the unveil [00:28:30] would then have a job of working around and opening it up. And then there's this moment of this wonderful moment when it's lifted up into a mushroom and then it comes down onto the ground. It's like life memory all at once. It's the most amazing freeing of the fabric and the stories within it. And they the the unveil is. Then, while they're lifting it up, they also turn so it turns in a circle, [00:29:00] and then it lands back on the ground. Each one is treated the same way. So in the was in the mall, in Washington or around New Zealand, the the the protocol of the How the quilt is approached and unveiled is treated the same way. And when it's finished with, I think it's folded up again so you can see that, and this is in the Michael Fowler Centre. You can probably recognise it from that wonderful 19 [00:29:30] seventies floor. It's still there, and these are images from quilts that from that period from that day. So, um, thank you very much for inviting me to talk about that. That's, um, pretty amazing. I haven't talked about this for 30 years, actually, because you get burnt out and you close it down and you walk away and you forget or you don't. And then you get asked to talk about [00:30:00] it. So pretty amazing, Simon. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Richard. Well, I'll pass over to Julia. Um, my name is Julia. I am, um, as Simon said, one of the curators at window up in Auckland. So I'm Auckland based. And, um, I will also work for Artists Alliance, which is an advocacy group for artists, Um, visual [00:30:30] artists, um, nationwide. And, um, I'm also currently writing my master's thesis, looking at artistic responses to HIV and a I DS, um I come to, uh, researching HIV and AIDS as an outsider. A relative outsider. I, um, am not personally affected by HIV and AIDS, but, um, I feel very, very privileged to be able to research. Um, the subject matter, Um you might wonder why I come [00:31:00] to HIV and AIDS. Um, I think, uh, my interest, uh, or the effect it has on me came from, uh, first, uh, in undergrad. I remember doing sexual histories. Um, at Auckland University, which is very, um, one of the best papers I've ever taken. And for that, we watched the documentary How to Survive a Plague. Um, and I was really, um, affected by the story of Act up New York, Um, and the activations that they did in the eighties [00:31:30] and nineties. Um, and then recently, uh, about a year ago, um, I lost my father to terminal illness. And, um, I really, um, remembered that feeling the the profound apathy that I experienced, um, from people around me. And it really reminded me of, um, how to survive a plague and that profound apathy that I think people living with HIV and AIDS experienced. And no way did I experience the same level. [00:32:00] But I just felt a real connection to those stories and the outrage that I felt from the apathy that I felt and I was like that could be nothing compared to what, um happened during the eighties and nineties, um, with HIV and AIDS. So I felt I really wanted to do a deep dive into that kind of research, and I it felt really pertinent as well, because I noticed recently, there's been um, a huge boom in curatorial [00:32:30] practise internationally revisiting, um, HIV and a ID. Um, in America, there's been, um, quite a few significant, uh, retrospective and large survey exhibitions, um, of HIV and AIDS. In artistic practise. One big one is art aids America. That was a travelling exhibition two years ago around America. There's also been some in the UK and Europe, and also some kind of recurs here in New Zealand with, um, uh, implicated [00:33:00] an immune which was at, um, restaged or recreated at my and now we're sleeping arrangements. So there was this really interesting kind of revisit of artistic practise around HIV and AIDS. And this also coincided with, of course, um uh, 2015 New Zealand AIDS Foundation. Um uh, showed us all that HIV and AIDS is at it. Well, HIV, um, transmissions are currently at its highest in New Zealand, [00:33:30] so it's very clear that this, uh, issue is not historic size. It's very urgent and really important. So I considered that in the wake of this happening in New Zealand and abroad, uh, representation is really important. Um and so I'm interested in how artists, um can use their art to counter the binaries that have come out of misrepresentations [00:34:00] through the media, surrounding people and what it is to live with. HIV Um, when I tell people what um, I'm studying and what my thesis about you can immediately tell there's confusion around. There's still confusion around the difference between HIV and AIDS. Um, and also people are still unclear in, um, how it's transmitted. Um, so it's really obvious that it's a really important issue and that it needs There needs to be a great discourse around [00:34:30] it, and I think artists can be one of the biggest players in this issue. So, um, the structure of my thesis is basically looking at, um, media representations of people living with HIV in the eighties and nineties and the kind of stereotypes and binaries that emerged from that. Which is people living with HIV as patients or as victims, uh, social and sexual deviance, which of course, [00:35:00] is not true. And also, um, H I person with HIV as male homosexual, um, middle class Caucasian, which is also, um, uh, not particularly true for New York. For example, New York In the eighties and nineties, women of colour were hugely overrepresented in as, uh, HIV patients. Um, so and then my thesis will look at how artists kind of circumvent or [00:35:30] open up those binaries and offer counter narratives or possibilities of what it means to live with HIV. And hopefully, um, inspire awareness and empathy and multitudes of what it means to live with HIV rather than a un visualising. Um, kind of one story of what it is to live with HIV because I don't think one story is the same. And it's, um, fluid [00:36:00] and open and always kind of changing. And every I know from my grief, my grief looks so different to everyone else's, and it's not all the same. But I also think that looking at the past looking at the eighties and nineties is really important to understand the present, Um, because past and present live at the same time, like that idea of that the past, present and future all is happening and unfolding at the same time. And just like our previous losses and [00:36:30] grief lives with us and we carry it with us and it exists with us, so yeah. Thank you. Um, I just have a few questions for each of you. If, um, I mean to start with, uh, Richard and Kevin. I'm interested in how you both got involved with the quilt project. Um, and how you first heard about it. Um well, I first became involved with it through the Nelson HIV AIDS support [00:37:00] network. Um, when we because we were being in the support network, we were actually looked at as being a branch of the AIDS Foundation. Back in those days, there was no individual membership of the foundation. You can only belong to the foundation as a branch. And yep, And the we were notified about the quilt and that through the foundation. And you do not be having to have [00:37:30] the annual leave at the time that the quilt was going to make an appearance in Nelson and yeah, just sort of went from there. And how did you encourage people who maybe weren't so artistically inclined to get involved? Good question. I don't know. You know, not being artistically inclined myself. It's very hard to answer that one. [00:38:00] I know with Roy, as I mentioned before there with the making of his panel for John, Um, I mentioned that I told him that the quilt existed, Um, and told him a bit about the quilt. Would he be interested in having a panel made for John and that with you? So, um, from the, um, support network helping him in that and he said, yes, he'd love to. And it grew from [00:38:30] there. And in fact, I still am in contact with Roy. I only saw him a couple of months ago, and he still remembers the making of that panel. And with the glueing of it to the table and who were some of the other key players in the, um, the quilt project at the time? Um, early on, uh, when I first became involved with it, when it first came to Nelson. Uh, Nicky Eddy was the, um, the convenor of the project [00:39:00] based in Auckland and before the first unveiling were unfolding in the Auckland Art Gallery. And, um 1991 the final sort of stitching together of the blocks and everything like that happened in her place. There are photographs of that, um, and the unfolding and everything on the website, which, by the way, is, um, aids or AIDS. quilt dot org dot NZ [00:39:30] and the protocols that, um, Richard mentioned about the unfolding and everything like that. They're all listed there as well. Um, yes. Nicky had a lot to do with Nicky. Um, I did meet um, Jean Stewart, her predecessor as the national convenor, and also had a lot to do with, um, Denis Moran, who took over from, uh, Nicky. And he was the one who brought the quilt to Nelson [00:40:00] for the National unfolding in 1999. And you try finding a place big enough to unfold 16 blocks of that size. That's not easy. And I've toured around schools and that on my own. But we know we've toured around schools. We've normally only taken about eight or nine blocks of the time. It's, um that more than fills an assembly hall. Uh, Julie, you spoke about this, [00:40:30] uh, resurgence of interest in the in the eighties and nineties and the, um, activism and discourse around HIV and AIDS. I wonder if you have any thoughts as to, um, Why now? Why might it be of interest now? Um, I think so. Ted, He's a, um, American curator and writer who talks a lot about this. And he, um, divides, um, the kind of story of HIV and a I DS into kind of the AIDS crisis, which [00:41:00] was that first decade. Um, And then, um, sees it as kind of over in 1996 in a mainstream point of view, um, and which I think he calls the silence or something like that. And then now he sees he identifies, and he calls it the AIDS crisis Revisit, which is happening now. And I think he, um, cites that as, um, there's lots of anniversaries coming up. So 2016, 20 years since anti successful antiretroviral [00:41:30] drugs were introduced. So lots of anniversaries coming up. I think some up, um, anniversary recently, So people are kind of looking back, and they're reminded of it. They're forced to be reminded of it, and so they want to kind of take stock of where they are now and where we have come, and also what needs to still happen. Um, because it should There should not be a silence over [00:42:00] it because it is still unfolding, especially in New Zealand. We have, um, still issues to confront, and, um, also the, um I've noticed the media here in New Zealand, even though very small on a small scale, you can already kind of cringe at what they're about. What people are saying. Um I think last year, the, um, pride parade, um, [00:42:30] crowned, uh, Mr Gay New Zealand. And he had talked about how he had unprotected sex with his partner while being HIV positive. But he had an undetectable file load, and his partner was also HIV positive. But there was still a huge a huge relative, kind of large outcry saying that he should be stripped of his title of Mr Gay New Zealand. But, um, he had an undetectable fire upload, and his partner was also HIV [00:43:00] um, positive. So there was no harm, no risk at all and having, um, unprotected sex. But still, the media grabbed on to it and kind of wanted to make a bit of a over it. So I think there's still, um, issues that we need to work out with, how people are being represented and how, um, the knowledge about HIV is being used and what people know. So I think that's why there's this this curatorial interest and artistic [00:43:30] interest in revisiting because it's I think it's decidedly not over completely. Yeah, um, so you're writing about, uh, four artists in your thesis, and, um, those artists are working at different points over 30 years. I wonder, um, can you talk a little more about the specific artists? And also whether you've noticed a change in approach, um, and output over the over the time. Um, so, of course, I am looking at Felix Gonzalez tores, um, looking at his billboard project in [00:44:00] Manhattan when he took a photo of his empty bed after his lover Ross had passed away and he took this black and white photo of any of their empty bed and put 24 billboards, I think all around Manhattan kind of unexplained. Um, and he's kind of injecting something that's very personal, very private into the public sphere. And, um, bringing something that should be hidden. Um, like, queer desire, queer sexual [00:44:30] sexuality, um, and loss and HIV into the public. Um, and then I'm also looking at Lyle Ashton Harris. Um, I saw his work last year at the Whitney Biennial. He did this thing called Chrome Archive and he unearthed um hundreds and hundreds of old personal photographs and displayed it in the Whitney Biennial. And it's, um, it's overview of his whole life and his relationships with his friends, [00:45:00] um, and lovers and family. And it includes big, um, political events. Um, like some protests and a huge conventions, Um, and also some really intimate photographs of his friends, um, taking anti viral drugs and who, um, and himself with his lovers. And it wasn't overtly about HIV, but you knew it was it was implicit. And I liked how it was this [00:45:30] overview of his whole life. And it wasn't looking at HIV in a vacuum. It was, um it showed his vitality and agency, his friends and lovers and these whole networks of people and communities that kind of grow around, um, loss and grief. And, um then I'm also looking at Kiki Smith, who's, um, a New York artist again. Her sister died of HIV, and she I'm looking specifically at Red Spill, which is this beautiful, huge [00:46:00] work of, um, glass, huge glass blood cells on a floor. And so she's making something that's seen as infectious, um, and dirty and making it precious and big and large scale and glass and monumental. Um, And then finally, I'm looking at Ron and his, um uh, performances using his body, um, specifically, um, increible flesh in which he [00:46:30] lay himself, um, in the middle of a gallery, um, and pinned back his eyes and eyelids with thread. And, um, he lay naked on, um, a metal table. And he invited, um audience to care for him and, uh, rub Vaseline on him where he was, um, bleeding and sore and shaved. And he did that for six hours. So he was for kind of forcing [00:47:00] the audience to care for him. Um, and the implication is that he's HIV positive. Um, but he's, uh, engaging in B DS M, uh, kind of sexuality while he's lying there. And while you're caring for him. So his sexuality is very overt and, um, present and celebrated. But also it's durational, and it's painful, and it's it's forcing us to take care of him. And, um, he's really [00:47:30] owning his relationship with the caregiver. Um, and taking charge of it, which is really important in HIV is this caregiving aspect. Um, yeah, What's the other half of your question? Um I was wondering if you noticed sort of a change in approach to how artists approach the topic over the time. Um uh, those artists are, um obviously Felix Gonza has passed away, but the rest are still, um, alive. [00:48:00] Now. They were all working around the same time in the nineties. Um, but I've noticed that, um, uh, I went to recently last year aids at home, which was an exhibition in New York. And it looked at artists working in the context of the domestic. And there was one artist who is, um, a young artist who I really, um, uh, really loved. And her name was Kia LA. And she's HIV positive she was born HIV positive because [00:48:30] her mother, um, was it and transmitted through breastfeeding. Um, and she, um, always talks about how her story is very much, um, not heard and is never spoken of in HIV context, that being transmitted through breastfeeding. Um, and she's, um, homosexual woman. And she's, um, mother of the house of which is a vogue house in, [00:49:00] um, New York. And she uses her, um, body and movement and voguing, um, to express her her story. And I um, I think she's also uses her own photography. And, um, I think the artist. Now I notice they always throwing back to the nineties. She's always throwing back to her mother and her mother's activism and her art. So I think this [00:49:30] past and present is always wrapped up in contemporary artists. And I think you can see that in Langdon Pole and Michael McCabe as well that, um, I think that's a huge, interesting thing that's happening in this like relationship to time and, um unfolding. And never that no one ever wants to universalize HIV. They're not saying this is what it's like. [00:50:00] They're just offering up one narrative, which I think is really interesting. Um, I read it in Julia's writing. She writes, um, that art can kind of help expand our understanding of what families mean and what caring means. Um, and Kevin, I'm just wondering if, um, have you found that in your work with the quilt? Um, yes, there's a lot of, um, love and that comes through and the caring and that, um, [00:50:30] there's one case in particular that comes to mind, too. Um, not directly so for the family. But one of the secondary schools I was at, um we had the we had some blocks out on the floor and that and we it was open for the students and they had to come through during the interval. And that and the teachers and that, too, And to just come and have a look. And there's this group [00:51:00] of senior girls came in and one of the teachers happened to be there. And it was shortly after the, um after the change of regime in Romania. There was a lot of orphans who had HIV and AIDS, and they were just basically locked up and forgotten about. And she went over there as a volunteer to work with these, uh, these AIDS orphans and that and she [00:51:30] started. She opened up. She started talking to the senior girls and that about what it was like looking after them and everything. And how girls, the same age as the students were going out at night and prostituting themselves and that. And just as it turned out, there was they were all late getting back to class. The whole lot of them, Um and we must have gone through over a box of tissues for the talking and that. And it was the first [00:52:00] time. It was about seven or eight years after the event. It was the first time she had ever been able to talk about the time that she spent in Romania looking after these Children at a very, very emotional time. Yes. As can be very, very powerful in that respect, um, and the care and everything that goes on it comes through not directly through the families, because I've had very little with the [00:52:30] families other than with Roy. Um, yeah. And we had a lot a lot of laughed and putting his panel together. And also, there were sad times in that as well. I mean, the way that, um, Roy found out about, uh, John's passing and everything like that. Yeah. And I just have one final question before we open it up for the, um, audience. Um, why do you think, um, the quilt remains so important and so significant. [00:53:00] Um, probably because it's the, um it is the, uh, the memorial for a lot of people. It's only about a quarter of the people who have died in New Zealand are remembered on the New Zealand quilt. And yeah, it's unfortunately, we can't sort of keep it in the everyone's sort of face all the time because of the, um, deterioration of it. But also, [00:53:30] it hasn't been added to for years now. It was, as I say, it was, uh, six years ago, it was lodged with the Papa at that stage. It had been over 10 years since the previous panel had been the last panel had been presented to the quilt. A lot of it has come about with the, um, in the mid 19 nineties with the development of the pro inhibitors was, um it was an interesting one that the drug trials [00:54:00] in the States Normally, they've got to have a year long drug, uh, go through different stages of trials in the last stage is usually for about a year. And with a large pop, uh, population base, um, that one there, about half way through the FDA Food and Drug Administration in America stepped in and told them to stop the trial. They immediately approved it. Pharmac, or predecessor of what's now known as pharmac, [00:54:30] moved probably the fastest I've ever moved in their life within a fortnight. They've proved it for you here in New Zealand, fully funded. In doing so, it reduced the death rate in New Zealand from one every six days for about one every three years. It turned the illness from a guaranteed death sentence within a year to a long term manageable illness. [00:55:00] Um, because of that, we haven't had the, uh, so many presented and it tends to sort of start to go into everyone's background. They start to lose touch with the fact that it was there. And Julie, I wonder if you have any thoughts about why it remains so important and significant. Um, I think the the quilt and all the different iterations around the world of the quilt just symbolises so much. Um, quilt making, [00:55:30] I think, is, um powerful and how it's often collaborative. Um, it's durational. So therefore it's therapeutic. Um, there's the something therapeutic about together working on this thing for someone. Um, I, um, considered starting a quilt for my dad when he passed away. But I I tried to attempt it. It just seemed too hard. So I think I need like, a team around me to help, but I I felt [00:56:00] that need I wanted to like, um, make something. It's a way of processing grief, I think. And I also find it really interesting. It's a it's traditionally a feminine craft that, um, uh, kind of has been harnessed by minority groups. Um, the quilt quilt making, I think, is a politicised act. It's not just HIV and AIDS that, um it's used for, uh, [00:56:30] a good example is Suzanne Lacy She made a work called the Crystal Quilt. Um, I think it was in the nineties and, um, she got, um, mo mobilised a huge community of, um, retired women. Um, and who, uh, maybe a forgotten part of society. Older women. And she brought them together. And they all collaborated on this large, um, social action of making a quilt. And [00:57:00] I think, um, it just shows this craft object can be or this craft making can be used by communities and elevated in this really powerful way that I can't recall any other, um, medium, used like that is quite unique. Um, we're making, I think, because it's boundless and there's no rules and there's so many different techniques [00:57:30] that it becomes very, very personalised. and just the durational aspect. The therapy of working over something together with people using your hands is a really helpful tool to work through grief. I think so. The court is perfect for that. Yeah, Great. Thank you, everyone. Um, I wonder if anyone in the audience has any questions for our speakers. Um, it's really about the quilt and quilt making. There's a place in America called G, and, [00:58:00] um, during the Depression. Um, the women in jeans then began making quilts out of anything they could find, and they would always use something from somebody who would pass in in the quilt. And when you look at these quilts, they're made out of old jeans, which reminded me of, um, I can't remember his first name. His name was right that they make metal jeans or old sheets or bits of sacking or whatever, and they make these things, [00:58:30] and it's very involving with community. But it's also a necessity. And so there's a thing about quilt to say they are a necessity. They're not just something that is beautiful that you see in a craft show that costs a couple $100 and they are big business now as well. Um, and so the reason I'm pre this with that is because, um, that's great. [00:59:00] It's been so long, but, um, my closest friend when I was growing up, um, to a and his mother, Um, how did the parents of people with AIDS Group in New York City and, um, when she did Kenny's quilt, she sent me a piece of his shirt and [00:59:30] asked me if I would make a piece for his quilt. And, um, you can see with as a dog it is. You know, um, I always remember that material when I'm making quilts today for my grandchildren or my Children or friends or whatever I always remember can quilt. And, um and the colour of that shirt is in every single quilt I've made. So it [01:00:00] is very powerful thing to do. It's all right. Mhm else. Thank you. Sorry. I should arrange some tissues around the room. Uh, does anyone else have any questions I'd like to ask us. Um, I was really curious about the ritual. And how was the ritual? Who created the ritual And how was it? How we share? Actually, I, [01:00:30] um the very first documentation that I ever saw regarding the quilt and the unfolding series. It was there. Then, um, you basically the quilter is folded from the corner into the centre, then again, but the then to create a new square. Then the corners of that square are taken in again, and it goes down so that the quilt [01:01:00] is folded into a block about 3 ft square, and when it goes in, it is placed on the floor. Then the four people that carry it in on at each corner they get outreach and they grab their particular corner from the centre and bring it out. Then they move around to the next corner, move around in a clockwise direction, and then they reach and [01:01:30] bring out the next corner and move it around 9, 10, 9 times out of 10. The people who are doing the unfolding have never done it before, and the instructions are given as they go. Yeah, instructions as to what to do is done as they go. Um, as I say it is fully detailed as to how to do it on the website. So if I can add to that, um, it's like the unfolding of an origami [01:02:00] flower. The ceremonial components are walking, bending, opening, turning, lifting and letting go. So some fabulous group came up with that and they transferred it to New Zealand. And that's just what we I mean, I'm just listening to you, and that's what we did. And that's [01:02:30] a protocol that's so deeply ceremonial and loving and honouring and gentle at the same time. And it's all done with silence or perhaps a flute in the distance. Usually, there's a cut of welcoming all the quilts into the space and the spaces in Wellington that I'd like to let you know that the quilt went to in those days because you all walk through these places, so so that, you know, the quilt had that [01:03:00] ceremony, um, the part of the, uh, botanical gardens, where there is the sound shell on the lawn, the concourse of the Wellington Railway station underneath the big vault. So thousands of commuters had to go through it past it the old Manor Street mall before it got returned to being a street. It was all along there, [01:03:30] inside the Michael Fowler Centre and in the Westfield Mall, in amongst all the shoppers, and each place had the same ceremonial opening and the quilt was at its busiest and its most active in all those places, with people having to come across it. Once it was unveiled, then the the the random people that would come would come across it and they'd suddenly be in it. And it's [01:04:00] like like walking into a graveyard by accident or you walk into a space by accident. And so it became very, um, it did a lot of work. The quilt did a lot of good work, huge amount of work. Uh, usually in the schools. We didn't really have a lot of time to, um, prepare to do go through the unfolding and that with the students. We basically just had it sort of out ready for the first period of the class of the day [01:04:30] and they came in. They got the, um, and we spend a good hour with each class as they came through, doing the, um, the full safe sex message and everything as well. I think I've got time for a couple more questions. Um, if they are, I've actually got two, but someone else might have 11 of you, Simon? Um, the quote, Um, upstairs for Simon. Was he known to Was [01:05:00] it commissioned of Malcolm by, um, Tom and or a little bit more detail on that? I know that it was actually turned out to be the wrong size for the project. But what do you know about the relationship between those three men? Four men. Uh, so it was a man called Rob Colder. Who, um, commissioned the quilt. Who was a neighbour of Malcolm's, um, and involved in the sort of craft scene in Auckland in the eighties. Um, and [01:05:30] who also happened to be friends with, um, Terry Stringer, who's a sculptor, And Tim McConnell, Who's a composer, I believe. Um And so Rob commissioned it from Malcolm for, um, Simon, who was a mutual friend of theirs. Um, and, uh, it was the wrong size. So it was, um, politely rejected from the quilt. Um, and then it ended up with Tim and Terry. They weren't specific on the details, but I think, [01:06:00] um, I think it was possibly just too emotionally charged for Rob to keep. And so he gave it to his friends, OK, And and Richard did you, Um, Did you actually initiate kind of quilting bees stitching bees to make the work in Wellington? I do recall community arts going to one in someone's house. You couldn't stop people doing it, and people would just get together and there was no no problem because there was such a need. [01:06:30] So great moments would happen. Yes, There have been times in the office in Auckland, and they, um they've gone up. Got to work one day. And here's a package sitting on the doorstep opened up. And here's a quilt. No, not nothing attached to it. That was it. There are. There are there are two or three panels like that, their friends. But they are all made by friends, family and loved [01:07:00] ones of those who have been lost. And they were all made after death. Some urban did, um, Malcolm Harrison make a number of panels, you know, or was he involved with making um so it's just the one that I know about, um, for Simon Moley. Um, and I came across it by accident. Really? Mostly, um, I was just looking at the quilt, [01:07:30] and it's so distinctively Martin Harrison's style that it couldn't be anyone else, but it was. It was for Simon. Yeah. Yeah. So he basically remade the one upstairs in the correct dimensions. But I don't know if he helped anyone else or um was involved in any other way. I'm thinking it's quite possible that he came with me to the workshop. Well, in someone's house, it wasn't a workshop. It was just a bit a stitching beam in street. And And I remember cutting out a pair of scissors. So [01:08:00] does that ring a bell with you? Maybe just one more question here. Um, can you tell us a bit more about what kind of impact the group had on public awareness in New Zealand in the 19 nineties? Because people may be encountering more. For example, was there a great Yeah, I can get into that because that was my job. Um, we were really [01:08:30] understanding that we had to turn public opinion around two reasons why stop hating us? Stop fearing us and we needed to honour our own people. And so there's that going on. And at the same time, we wanted to use anything we could to get the health awareness message out there to stop people transmitting the disease. Unexpected unknowingly. So there were two [01:09:00] really big projects that happened. One was the international AIDS Candlelight memorial, which is worth an exhibition. If someone would like to do that, speak to me. I'm sitting on the stuff and the other was the names project and the New Zealand Quilt. So when the quilt came to Wellington for World AIDS day in 1990 was it one? I don't know. I'm sorry, but, um, we made sure that it got [01:09:30] on to television. Anything we did as queens, we really worked the media. We really anything that could get TV and newspaper and photographs we did. There was no Internet people. Can you imagine the world of no Internet? So television was everything. If you could get prime time, you did a huge amount of money. You get a lot of value for your awareness campaigns. So a lot of our thinking was around. How can we get this on TV or into the press? [01:10:00] Yes, we we use the, uh, the printed media a lot in Nelson with the, uh, the local paper and that the the weekly handout freebie papers and that and down the West coast and then L as well. It was good because a lot of this is so visual. So there there were a lot of images that, you know, the quilt candles, torches. It was all very visual. So it was good for that reason. It wasn't just blank pieces of paper. And also, it [01:10:30] really was probably the peak of a huge boom and quilting internationally. Really? Yeah, Well, so you had a whole extra kind of Can I just follow on from that too, because it strikes me. I was involved working at the arts Council in my eighties and nineties that it was also a very bit of this area that I call community development as a mode of cultural production was a very powerful and and just hearing talking about [01:11:00] a quilt made me remind me that in Auckland there was this 1990 Commonwealth quote that we she organised with a lot of in that case artists, but also quilting volunteers. And so there was a sort of power around community cultural, um, development as a cultural practise, not just individual, say, professional artists. And it had a lot of social currency, and it did fall away quite soon [01:11:30] after that. So it was sort of a The quilting was, um it's a, let's, say, an antique mode of production. But it actually had a lot of right at that moment which, you know, helped with the message because a lot of people were tuned into that sort of, you know, collaborative, community based practise the film An American how to make an American film film. But I can remember [01:12:00] all sorts of, um, sort of books about community cultural production Would actually have examples about AIDS books as examples of of, you know, contemporary, you know, socially relevant. Um, practise, you know. Right. Well, thank you everyone for coming. Um, this has been a really great talk. And and thank you, Julia, Kevin and Richard for, um no worries. And thank you, Gareth as well. And, um, Judy from the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. It will be available [01:12:30] for, um, informal conversation just over here. Um, and also also, Kevin has bought some historical documents as well. Um, just in the back corner. So thank you all again.

IRN: 1236
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/spectrum_website_1996.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004539
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089833
TITLE: Spectrum website (1996)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Kevin Jensen
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; Akiko International; Aotearoa New Zealand; Dowse Art Museum; Gay Auckland Business Association (GABA); Internet Archive; Internet Service Provider (ISP); Kevin Jensen; Lower Hutt; Nelson; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; Spectrum (Nelson); Tasman Solutions; Windows 95; acceptance; access; accessibility; alt. ssgm (Alt Same Sex Gay Male); archives; bisexual; bulletin board; computer programming; computers; dial-up internet access; gay; google. com; heterosexual; imagery; internet; lycos. com; modem; nelson. planet. org. nz; newsletter; nz. com; pornography; social; support; website; xtra. co. nz; yahoo. com
DATE: 26 May 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Dowse Art Museum, 45 Laings Road, Hutt Central, Lower Hutt
CONTEXT: In this podcast Kevin Jensen talks about creating one of the earliest rainbow websites originating from New Zealand. The website went live on 27 January 1996 and was for the Nelson-based Spectrum social and support group. The Internet Archive has a snapshot of the website from May 1997. There were other LGBTI rainbow websites being developed at the time (notably on nz. com) which can be found here.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Kevin, could you paint a picture for me? Of what Internet access was like in the mid nineties in Nelson? Um, very scarce. Um, it was dial up through an or, uh, company known as, uh, tap became known as Tasman Solutions. It started off as the planet dot org dot NZ Nelson Branch. Um and so they were my ISP my Internet service provider. Um, I've been with them right from the big, uh, September [00:00:30] 1995. I was their very first Windows 95 customer. And then, um, they after I got I got to know the person that ran it. And after a couple of months, he asked me, Would spectrum be interested in having a presence on the Internet? And just tell me what what is Spectrum Spectrum is the It was the, uh, social and support group for gay and bisexual men in Nelson. And [00:01:00] when was that established? No, Somewhere around 1990 1991. You somewhere around there? So the mid nineties, what kind of Internet sites were available for LGBTI rainbow communities? Uh, the ones that I could mainly find were all overseas. That basically American? Yeah. Um and then the vast majority of those were actually porn based or really so porn was an early adopter. [00:01:30] Oh, yes, it was there then. Yeah. And what about New Zealand sites? Very few and far between, Um, the NZ dot com had a through a had a, um, a small, uh, gay section which basically listed the groups available in the country. And that was it. We we we think nowadays, in 2018 of very, um, [00:02:00] rich media content websites. But back then, back 20 years ago in the 19 nineties, what kind of, um, sites were available in terms of text or images? Um, that was full of, uh, even movies and that on the porn sites and particularly they were there. Yes, everything was there, but, uh, you had to go digging for anything if you wanted it, But it was a lot of it was text based with photos and or diagrams and that which is [00:02:30] basically the same as the, um, what the Spectrum one was. And of course, this is, um, pre Google search engine. Very, very much so. It was even back in the days before, um, what is now known as spark came online with the extra Internet service that goes back even before that. So how did you find things back then? Um, the main ones we used back then were either the Yahoo search engine or, um, [00:03:00] yeah, there was another one. I'm just trying to think, like was another one. Yes, there were. There were several rather large search engines which came through. They actually came through the trawled the website quite regularly and in terms of finding LGBTI rainbow content. Um, how what? What kind of words did you use? Uh, I just usually put in, like, gay men usually. And yeah, came up with screeds [00:03:30] of results. And this is also a time, I guess when, uh, bulletin boards, um, were still around very, very active. Yes. Yeah, very, very active. And can you tell me about the bulletin boards? Um, yeah, there were. There were several, uh, they were usually in the section, Um, the in news groups, Um, the things like TASSGM. Um, [00:04:00] so that same sex gay men, uh, stories and pictures and all sorts of things like that were available through those groups and for somebody nowadays who might not know what a bulletin board was Can you describe what? What they were? Um it's basically a place where you wrote something or had a picture, and you posted it to the person who ran the board, and they posted it on your behalf and [00:04:30] made it available for everyone else to see. So when you were asked about, um, establishing a web presence for spectrum uh, what was the what? What What was the thought behind that? Um, Probably to give us a bit of, um, support. And, uh, so we could make our presence felt for any visitors and that to Nelson and that. And when did the website go live? Um, I can't remember if it was late 1995 or early [00:05:00] 1996. I'm probably going with the early 1996 option there because I was just becoming new to the Internet because back then it was all dial up. Um, the 33. 6 K modem dial up had just been introduced, So that's how slow things were. And can you describe what dial up was because I mean, nowadays, people are just so kind of Internet connected. Um, yes. You basically went through the phone line. Uh, you actually had to have [00:05:30] a special modem in your computer, which converted the digital signal into from the computer into an analogue signal for the, uh, phone system. And then it was converted back at the other end, and yeah, and then the computer system worked as per the Internet and then converted it back to you. So So, watching something like a movie or even downloading images, I mean, that would have taken quite some time. A very, very long time. Yes. Um, you get [00:06:00] a Well, the 33. 6 K is the speed at the time as 33. 6 K bytes A a second, but you take a megabyte of information and that there was several minutes, and now you need several, um, megabytes will come down in a fraction of a second. So in terms of working out, what information should go up online about the spectrum group? [00:06:30] What were your thoughts? How did how did you gather information? Um, a lot of it was taken from what other people suggested, and that, and also from the newsletters and various other information that I could lay my hands on, uh, and I. I kept it all very very, um, text or oriented First because of the, uh, the speed issues. And so as the speed became more and more faster, [00:07:00] more, the Internet became more common. Um, I, I gradually introduced more and more, uh, graphics and photos and things. So do you think the spectrum website was one of the first, if not the first, uh, LGBTI Rainbow website in New Zealand? Um, I'm not sure if it was or not. Um, the gay Auckland Businessmen's Association. They had a web presence to, uh, around the same time, [00:07:30] Whether they beat us or not, I couldn't tell you, but still, it was quite it was quite at the forefront. Oh, yes, yes. It is still very early on in the piece. I think we might have even beaten the AIDS foundation online, but not by much. How did you programme the content into the website? Um, it was all done by, um manually, uh, typing out the HTML code. And then it was all the files were all uploaded individually by a separate [00:08:00] FTP programme. And so how did you learn programming? Um, a lot of reading of the Internet. Um, you know, I actually found that also, my IP was very, very helpful, too, with giving me information and making suggestions and that and there's been more than one, email. I've actually read directly off the server instead of going through my email account at home. So why was your ISP so keen on getting a kind of an LGBTI rainbow [00:08:30] presence? Um, I'm not overly sure he was. He was very much into sort of helping all sorts of other community groups and that sort of thing. Um, in fact, in 1999 I think it was when we had the national quilt display in Nelson. He, uh, they actually were one of the main sponsors for it, too. What kind of feedback did you get from people accessing the website in those early days? Um, we didn't get much direct feedback, but [00:09:00] we What we did get was positive. Um, we've had we actually had several visitors from overseas who found us through the website. We had a weekly drop in centre spectrum did and and the number of people that sort of came in and said they found it on the Web and everything. Yeah, it was good when you look back, Um, because the pages are now stored on the way back machine on the web archive. When you look back, what can you reflect on those pages? [00:09:30] Um, yeah, I. I can remember most of the sort of doing most of it. And that, and also when the with the newsletter and that we put that up on there as well, or the monthly newsletter went out on, too, And just more broadly reflecting back. Um, what do you think the Internet has done for LGBTI Rainbow Communities in the last 20 years? Um, it made the the presence. Being there has become much more acceptable or accessible more than anything [00:10:00] and then acceptable and sort of taking down a lot of the barriers. And that will help take down a lot of the barriers because back then, it was still very much in the days of, um, you go. We don't want anything to do with this sort of thing, whereas it's changed so much for the better. Now with treating everyone as equals.

IRN: 1235
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/international_aids_candlelight_memorial_2018.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004538
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089832
TITLE: International AIDS Candlelight Memorial (2018)
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VOICES: Bruce Kilmister; Eric Evans; Glacer Tormis; Heather Sangster-Smith; Jane Bruning; Karen Ritchie; Kay'la Riarn; Kjel Griffiths; Lee Eklund; Phil Rogers; Rev Roger Pym; Steve McVey; Trudie; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Big Gay Out (Auckland); Body Positive; Bruce Burnett; Bruce Kilmister; Candlelight Memorials; Cartier Trust; Chrissy Witoko; Ending HIV (campaign); Eric Evans; Fran Wilde; Freddie Mercury; Glacer Tormis; Governor-General of New Zealand; Grant Robertson; Green Party; HIV / AIDS; HIV / AIDS; HIV education; HIV stigma; Heather Sangster-Smith; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Human Rights Commission; James Rice-Davies; Jane Bruning; John Henry Newman; Karen Ritchie; Kay'la Riarn; Kjel Griffiths; Lee Eklund; NZAF Ā whina Centre; National Party; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand Labour Party; Patsy Reddy; Pharmaceutical Management Agency (Pharmac); Phil Rogers; Philippines; Positive Speakers Bureau; Positive Women Inc; PrEP (Pre-Exposure Prophylaxis); Rev Roger Pym; Rock Hudson; Ron Irvine; Sister Paula Brettkelly; Steve McVey; Tararua Tramping Club; Tom O'Donoghue; Tonya Booker; Trish McBride; Trudie; Truvada; Tīwhanawhana; Undetectable = Untransmittable (U=U, campaign); Victor Taurewa Biddle; Wellington; Work and Income (WINZ); abortion; activism; faith; homosexual; homosexual law reform; kindness; love; medications; memorial; peer support; women
DATE: 20 May 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Tararua Tramping Club, 4 Moncrieff Street, Mount Victoria, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: To that guy. No kidding. I is. Yeah. And good day here. Yeah, 50 50. [00:00:30] Yeah, It it my king, my kid. Amazing. [00:01:00] Yeah. Why do I? Mhm king of Oh, 50 50. It's it Mhm [00:01:30] my hair. But I do that market. Is that OK? My. I hear the [00:02:00] thank you. Um just some words to start with as surely as we belong to the universe. We belong together. We join here to transcend the isolated self to reconnect, to know ourselves, to be at home here, on [00:02:30] earth, onto the stars linked with each other. The international AIDS Candlelight memorial is much more than just a memorial. The International AIDS Candlelight memorial serves as a community mobilisation campaign to raise social consciousness about HIV and AIDS. The memorial serves as an important intervention for global [00:03:00] solidarity, breaking down barriers of stigma and discrimination and giving hope to new generations. Leadership by people living with HIV and those affected by HIV is an important part of the international AIDS Candlelight memorial, along with education and social interaction. And now we've got the MP S all their letters. [00:03:30] Anyway, um, the Governor General's one is going to be read by Jane, I think the message for the AIDS candlelight this evening New Zealanders are joining people around the world to honour friends and loved ones who have lost their lives to AIDS. We remember those who championed the cause of people living with HIV and AIDS, campaigning for research, support and effective treatment. [00:04:00] We remember also the scientists, the medical professionals whose dedication was delivered a better prognosis for people living with HIV or AIDS, and enabled them to plan a future with confidence. We celebrate that progress, but we cannot afford to be complacent. We owe it to those who lost their battle with AIDS to provide and promote conversations about safe behaviours across all our communities. I wish everyone [00:04:30] associated with advocacy, support and education about HIV and AIDS all the very best with this vital work from the right honourable dame Patsy Reddy, Governor General of New Zealand and also the, um, patron of New Zealand AIDS Foundation. Thank you. Thank you. Now, from the Labour Party, uh, Grant hasn't magically appeared like he normally does each year. So Philip Rogers, I think, is going to read that one. Is that right? [00:05:00] My apologies. I'm not as handsome as Grant and not as making as much money. But I'm here. Um, I've got the speech here. It's on behalf of the Labour Party to Body Positive Positive Woman, the New Zealand AIDS Foundation and all those who help organise these events and undertake the important work on HIV and AIDS. We thank you. Each year on this occasion, our minds turned to the people of our generation who were young men and [00:05:30] women as the world became aware of AIDS and who did not survive until their middle age. We mourn for them and we think of their friends and families who saw them die from a disease which we did not fully understand. Events like this and symbols like the quilts that have been made around the world are our public memorial to what we also deeply felt. Private losses to those friends and family. Please know that your loved ones are remembered [00:06:00] as the decades have passed. We have learned far more from HIV and a I DS. But still there was much more to do. The theme of this year's international AIDS Candlelight memorial reflecting on our past and preparing for the future around the world. 33 million people are living with HIV today through international solidarity, access to medicines, education and reducing stigma. We can rid the world of HIV and AIDS [00:06:30] here at home at New Zealand, the New Zealand found out AIDS Sorry New Zealand AIDS Foundation have launched the ending HIV campaign at Labour. We are proud to have signed the New Zealand Labour Party up to that campaign on the big day out in February 9, 2017. This is an ambitious campaign to end transmission of HIV by 2025. We can do this together with the combination of [00:07:00] safe sex education and practise early and regular testing and access to medicines including PR EP Prep. We can stop the transmissions but it is a big ask and one that all of us have to support with long term dedication and commitment. You have that from the Labour Party. We will support your efforts. We also acknowledge tonight we hope those who are living with HIV [00:07:30] living with a chronic illness is tough but more so with HIV, there is still significant stigma attached to positive people. We can only break that down by talking and listening. As one positive person has said, you can live with the virus but the stigma will kill you emotionally. We encourage all of you to talk about HIV. That is the only way we can fight the stigma. So to all of those living with HIV, [00:08:00] we acknowledge you your courage and we will give you support. So all of us on this international AIDS can candlelight Memorial Day join together and say For the sake of all those who have gone before we can end HIV and AIDS together, Eric will bring us words of wisdom from the National Party. Sorry, I couldn't resist saying that [00:08:30] it's reasonably short and sweet too. But, uh, so I'm here to read a message on behalf of the National Party. Um, this this year's theme for the memorial reflecting on our past preparing for our future is particularly important after Pharmac announced funding for prep through the drug Truvada, which provides protection to prevent HIV infection. The accessibility of this drug will significantly help reduce the prevalence of HIV in New [00:09:00] Zealand. Though HIV infection rates in New Zealand are low compared with other countries, we've got to continue to do more. National supports the New Zealand AIDS Foundation's aspiration to make New Zealand HIV free by 2025. That was the message Oh um, and now will bring words of wisdom from the Green Party to everyone [00:09:30] attending the International AIDS memorial. This provides a special opportunity to pause, reflect and remember those we have lost to HIV A. I DS The Green Party joins you all of this community of collective remembrance. The last few years have unfortunately seen a rise in people being diagnosed [00:10:00] with HIV. We still desperately need help promotion work happening to ensure that people know the risks faced. We must remain remain vigilant to HIV AIDS and the hope that the people do not continue to suffer unnecessarily as treatments improve and people's quality of life continue to improve. [00:10:30] Let us not forget the many talented and beautiful people we have lost too soon in this pandemic. We wish to acknowledge all of those that have stood by their friends on often painful journeys that can be a long and lonely path, and a many people living with HIV A. I DS have been gay or bisexual men who have faced [00:11:00] in double jeopardy of prejudice associated with their illness and sexual orientation. The Green Party is proud to have always taken a strong stand against prejudice and to have played a role in making things better. We will continue this needed work. We will remain committed to working towards a world without prejudice and seeing people get medical and social [00:11:30] support that HIV aids sufferers need and the memory of those taken to soon in the green Party. Yeah, I like to call on Heather San Smith, member of positive Women. Uh, member of the Positive Speakers Bureau. Heather lives above Wellington Harbour and [00:12:00] enjoys people and solitude and equal measure. Sounds wonderful, doesn't it? Um, I'm really, really feel quite privileged to be able to stand here. Um, I'm standing on the shoulders of many of our our forebears from the eighties and nineties, very conscious that we're here to to honour their memory. [00:12:30] I would like to honour the women who were our pioneers. These women were the mothers, the daughters, the wives, positive women who got together in the eighties and nineties and looked after each other. Their sons were dying a lot of them and they needed support. [00:13:00] The mothers who said he is my son and I love him. I also want to honour the women who worked at our voluntarily and on the payroll. Way back, Um, I've got Trish McBride with me today who is one of the early pioneers who worked alongside many other women and looking after the mothers [00:13:30] and the women and the positive women and, of course, the young men who were dying. One particular woman who I'd like to honour today. Some of you may remember sister Paula Brett Kelly. She died 10 years ago, and I would like to honour her. I never met her, but I did correspond with her. [00:14:00] I wrote to her her religious order recently, telling them about this particular event, and a sister wrote back who was one of Paula's compatriots. And she said, You'll do well with Paula breathing her spirit with you. She went to a in in 1987. She marched in, apparently [00:14:30] and see What can I do? They were a little bit taken aback by this feisty little nun who, um, was there to help and roll up your sleeves. She was willing to learn. She was willing to listen and to respect. But she was also there to companion anyone who was affected by HIV and the dying. She would sit by [00:15:00] bedsides along with the other woman who worked with her. She became an advocate and an educator went on to the Human Rights Commission. She felt that her calling was to the people, her people and the margins, because she believed that's where her God dwelt Paula's message to the volunteers who came to a and said, What can we do? She said, [00:15:30] Get in there and do some loving She also said famously, My God is gay and I'm going to add my God as HIV, positive and beautiful. Trish wrote a poem for the Mothers Way back in 91. I'm going to read part of the poem to you. She wrote it for the mothers that she was companion, [00:16:00] and she also made part of the quilt Son, I conceived you in joy, but not for this. For nine months I bore you, but not for this played with you laughed with you, but not for this encouraged. You kissed you better, but not for this times [00:16:30] of peace and pain, of loss of gain. Not this but somehow in this crazy, screaming grief a still point of tiny light exists as I begin somehow to see inevitably of who you most deeply were called you to this [00:17:00] time you could not do otherwise. Then be true to yourself, my son. I understand it was for this. So how can we honour each other? We honour our past. The only way we can honour our future is to live in the now we are the now [00:17:30] we are the here and now and the future and people living with HIV is at the heart of it all. I believe that in putting down good foundations we have to be kind. Invite kindness, give kindness Be kind to yourself. You are honoured. You are worthy of love and kindness. [00:18:00] Sickened something which I've had to go through. Name my HIV. Is your HIV a monster? A green alien invading your body? Are you frightened of your monster? Is HIV your friend? Your companion is HIV. Just part of who you are. Is your HIV [00:18:30] a gift? How we define ourselves is crucial. How we define our HIV is also crucial. Thirdly, in terms of honouring today, yesterday and tomorrow is love and love drives out fear, stigma and hate. OK, so let's honour [00:19:00] our past, present and future. I'd like to leave you with a quote from a priest who lived in the 20th century who struggled with love. He was troubled until he found out what love really meant. And he especially learned to love himself. His name was Henry New New. This is what he said. [00:19:30] Love asks us to go where it hurts to enter into the place of pain, to share and Brokenness fear, confusion and anguish. Love means full immersion in the condition of human beings. In a world so torn apart by anger and hatred, we have the privileged calling [00:20:00] and ability to be living signs of a love that can bridge all divisions and heal all wounds. Thank you. Thank you. And now Bruce Bruce Kilmister. For over 20 years, Bruce Kilmister headed Body Positive Inc. [00:20:30] A peer support organisation which provides care, support and information for people living with HIV. A. I DS Bruce retired from his position as CEO at the end of 2014 but continued until April this year. As chairman of the board, he leaves the organisation in good standing, both structurally and financially. Bruce also is a founding and life member of the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. [00:21:00] Oh, thank thank you, Roger. That's very kind words. Um, like, called events. When I'm asked to speak about something, I've got no idea what I'm going to say. So, um, I had to reflect really hard on what to say today, and it's I took the title reflecting on our past and preparing for our future. I can reflect on [00:21:30] our past, but I'm not sure I've got a lot of future left, but we'll try and do our best reflecting on the past. I want you to look at me and think of me 30 years ago and certainly 30 kg later, and you'll get an idea that, um, what sort of lifestyle I was a young gay man starting to enjoy my life. But in the early eighties, we had heard about this terrible disease called the AIDS disease, or Or or the gay disease, to begin with, [00:22:00] mainly from America, where it was killing our communities across there, and we were, um, really concerned about what we were hearing at that time. We were a criminalised population of the gay community. We didn't want to say anything or poke our heads above the parapet, because again, that could result in all sorts of actions against us. Loss of employment, loss of accommodation, etcetera. Um, [00:22:30] occasionally you'd hear a splurge in the media about the death of a film star Rock Hudson, which would shake everybody up. Or then later, a a rock star, Freddie Mercury. And again, people were concerned more and more, we heard about a young man called Bruce Burnett who came back from America with this HIV disease. He lobbied the Ministry of Health. And, uh, we had quite an enlightened, uh, officials [00:23:00] in those days, and they acknowledged that they could not access the gay community, which was virtually an underground criminalised community. So they agreed to support the establishment of the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, and I was delighted to be part of that founding board and to have that set up, uh, the fights and the struggles we had I were just so many. I can't begin to tell you about them all. Um But our first [00:23:30] efforts when we were told we were not to be political, was in fact we were political. We wanted to support a Wellington member of Parliament, Fran Wilde, in establishing her homosexual law reform bill. It took 18 months of real fight to get that through, and I can only call what we had against us lobbied against us was a massive, very wealthy, rich religious order. The bill passed in [00:24:00] 1986 and of course, the parties that followed that day and night. I can tell you were just something quite amazing. But it was not easy. It was at a cost. In this country we've lost over 750 people have died to AIDS or an AIDS related illness. It seems light and it is light compared to what we saw in America, where over 650,000 men have died from AIDS, mostly [00:24:30] gay men. That's hard to fathom that number. But if you add up the number of Americans that have died in World War One, World War Two, the Korean War, the Vietnamese war, Iraq, Iran add them all together and still more men have died from AIDS in America and the great political fuss that went on with those other issues, particularly Vietnam. But society mostly ignored gay men. [00:25:00] President Reagan couldn't even bring himself to say the word aids. So the fight was done for us, mostly offshore. But here it was also a fight, uh, to get on. And although medication maintains the health of most of us today, there are those that it cannot work for. I lost a partner because simply the medication just would not work. In the early days, the side effects were so horrendous he preferred the alternative. [00:25:30] But for me, I was wanting it out of the test tube out of the laboratory so I could hang on there. Um and, uh, it's worked well for me. So again, I want to say briefly reflecting on the past. It's been the best of times and the worst of times. The best of times were an amazing response by our community, one of overwhelming [00:26:00] love and support, particularly in support of those who weren't going to live longer. And this is what this event is about. For me, it's coming to remember those who have gone, who have gone before us and to have a moment of thought for them because they fought and paid the price for what we have today. A better place. And again for those coming through today, they've got treatment and medication that will keep [00:26:30] them well and alive and medication that will stop the infection. So we're not far from getting through this pandemic. But again, today is about remembrance and reflecting on the past and for the future. Well, I've got a pretty good one mapped out for me too. Whatever is left. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you, Bruce. [00:27:00] I like to call on Trudie. Excuse me if I've said it wrong, they didn't give me a a practise of that before I saw it first became interested in public health because of the HIV epidemic in sub Saharan Africa. As an undergrad student, Trudie conducted research on ending mother to child transmission of HIV in Tanzania. Over the course of her career, Trudie has [00:27:30] had leadership roles in the health care space at private and nonprofit health care organisations. It's a real pleasure and an honour to be here And not only am I here on behalf of the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. But my friends, neighbours and family in the New York City, New Jersey and Philadelphia Metro area who have been impacted by HIV and also [00:28:00] the friends and family in sub Saharan Africa. Um, and I'm gonna try not to tear up because as Bruce was speaking, I was thinking back, um, to the people, to the neighbours, Um HIV and AIDS is arguably the greatest public health challenge of our generation. In 2016 alone, we saw 1. 8 million new HIV infections worldwide, of which 244 came from New Zealand. While this sounds like a low figure in comparison [00:28:30] to the global total, it is our highest number ever and far too high for a high income country with free access to prevention. Over 37 million people are now living with HIV around the world, and each year around 1 million people still die of AIDS related illnesses. Since the start of the epidemic, we've lost over 35 million of our brothers and sisters to the virus. The world is [00:29:00] now committed to ending the AIDS epidemic by 2030 and the theme of this year's memorial is reflecting on our past preparing for our future. The extraordinary accomplishments of the last 15 years, both in increasing access to HIV treatment, um in the developing world and reducing AIDS mortality have inspired global confidence that the target is an achievable one. Over the last year [00:29:30] in New Zealand, we have seen exciting developments, which we anticipate will soon lead to a drop in infection rates. After more than three decades, we have managed to maintain one of the lowest adult HIV prevalence rates in the world. This has been achieved through consistent promotion of condom use to prevent HIV and STIs community development. Strong government partnerships work to eliminate HIV stigma, [00:30:00] support for human rights and effective public health legislative change. Today the epidemic is comparatively small and concentrated than, and it is in this context that the potential to reduce, halt and then reverse and end new HIV transmissions is a real possibility. At the same time, annual diagnoses have been rising at an alarming rate for six [00:30:30] years. The opportunity to turn this around lies in the fact that the world of HIV prevention has been through nothing short of a revolution. Recent scientific breakthroughs supported by real world evidence have demonstrated that treatment based prevention can complement existing condom promotion efforts to drive down new HIV infections. We know, for example, that the risk of serious illness or death is [00:31:00] 57% lower among people living with HIV treated early compared to those where treatment is delayed. We also know now that if people living with HIV are able to achieve and maintain an undetectable viral load for more than six months, HIV is not transmitted during unprotected sex. It's for this reason that NZAF campaigned for the removal of the threshold for treatment access and [00:31:30] we applaud pharmac decision. This decision was in line with all the scientific evidence and the World Health Organisation. This year we saw the funding of prep or pre exposure prophylaxis, the daily medication taken by people who are HIV negative in order to reduce their risk of HIV infection. We know that prep is extremely effective at preventing HIV transmission and we've seen success in other countries. We often compare [00:32:00] ourselves to England, Australia and the US. We anticipate that this funding will have an immediate effect on HIV infection rates in New Zealand, and look forward to seeing the 2018 figures hopefully go down in the context of treatment based prevention, we must, of course, continue to promote condoms as the most effective prevention tool for HIV and STIs at the population level, maintaining high [00:32:30] rates of use that 30 years of community based health promotion and social marketing has achieved. We must also significantly significantly increase the level of HIV testing for those most at risk and finding the estimated 600 to 750 people living with HIV in New Zealand, but who don't know it. The 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development, an agenda which New Zealand must report its progress against, [00:33:00] is underpinned by the values of inclusion, equity and social justice. If, as a sector in A we can live these values, if we can secure the highest levels of government commitment if we can inspire, mobilise and work alongside key impacted communities, if we can collaborate through innovative and progressive cross sector initiatives. If we can successfully challenge HIV stigma [00:33:30] and discrimination and provide better support to people living with HIV, then we can end the transmissions. New transmissions of HIV in New Zealand There is much to be done for today. Let us collectively honour, celebrate love. And remember the people who have come before us. We have over 30 years of learnings to reflect upon and learn from. And so we leave here tonight as we leave here tonight, let [00:34:00] us commit to ourselves that we will do everything in our power to prepare for a future without AIDS. Thank you. Now we're going to hear from Glazer. Thomas. I hope I've said that right too. Glazer was born in the Philippines now living and working in New Zealand. He is here today to share his experience. [00:34:30] Hello, everyone. My name is Glazer. I arrived in New Zealand two years ago from the Philippines. During my time in New Zealand, I met this very wonderful man who is positive. When we spoke about his HIV status, I was shocked and somewhat disillusioned because all I knew was the pain and suffering I had seen in the Philippines. The public health system in the Philippines is overcrowded and, um, funding [00:35:00] is limited. So I only thought of the worst. But my partner explained to me that through taking his medications, he could not pass on the HIV virus. Um, I learned a lot about my partner that day as it took him a lot of courage to tell me I was proud and loved him even more, even though I still had some interfere. I believe the name today. [00:35:30] I understand and, uh, feel we need to do more in spreading the message of hope through you equals you and sharing our experiences. I think it is important to receive voluntary HIV testing and counselling as a couple or as an individual. You will receive your results and, um, share your status with the support of a counsellor. A range of prevention, treatment and support options [00:36:00] can then be discussed and decided upon together. Um, thank you for letting me share my experiences. And I say to all those here today to continue to encourage and educate spreading the message of hope and understanding. And now Karen Ritchie. No problem saying that name Karen Ritchie, [00:36:30] known as Mama Karen, set up the Trust in Auckland as a support network for those dying from HIV and AIDS. Karen is involved with the Under 35 Positive Support Group. Karen also works alongside body positive and the NZAF and many other community based support networks while also holding a full job, full time job in the health sector. First, I'd like to say a huge thank you [00:37:00] to Wellington for having me here today to say a few words about our dear friend Vic, who passed away last year. Since the eighties, I've had many friends who we've lost and passed away through, um HIV AIDS and it's always and everyone is a huge loss to us all. Um, Vic, a man of great knowledge, manner and wisdom. And I understand last year from Ron that, [00:37:30] um, he was here carving up the ham and participating and helping in the kitchen. He was a busy young bee, wasn't he? So that's that was great that he, um, supported always body positive. I first met VIP, probably 25 30 years ago. I really can't put a time limit on that, he said to Davina. And who is this woman that you call Mama I? I want to meet her. [00:38:00] So they brought him around to home and I had an apartment in Kay Road and I don't know, from that day on, we just clicked and had the most amazing, amazing friendship. And that grew to a strong love and respect over all those years. He was very, very protective of me. Those who knew Vic, you would know that he didn't suffer fools well. And if somebody [00:38:30] was disrespectful or whatever to somebody he loved and cared about, they faced the consequences of his the wrath of his mouth one way or another. And that was certainly our vic. Um, just I'll go to AAA Funny moment. For a moment, it's not funny to begin with. Um, some years ago now there was Vic, myself and Natasha Allen, who has since passed away from cancer a few years [00:39:00] ago. There's a group of us standing outside, um, Carmo having a drink and etcetera, etcetera. And this car drove past and unbeknown to us at the time, it had begun things, as you know, that were firing pallets. And, of course, as it went past, Vic, um, got one inside of the face. So I took him to the toilet. And, um, you know, we pushed that out of his face with a bullet, [00:39:30] and, um, I said to him, We need to ring the police on this vic. And I said to the staff, Can you ring the police? We ring the police. Well, Vic and police was up, you know? But I said to him, that could have been your eye. And they could It could somebody else could, you know, lose an eye from doing this. So it became a standing joke later on, um, with Vic, he'd say, Oh, yeah, I had Nata, these two witches Nata, Natasha and mother beside me. And not one of the bitches could save me. And they were the witches [00:40:00] of, you know, it was a standing joke with him about the bullet and the cheek. And then another night he wanted to. He used to stay with me or Jordan when he came up from from Wellington. And, um, one night he rang me and there was something happening and he said I should have come up. I should have come up. He always called me darling. He said I should have come up, darling. I knew I should have. And I said, Well, you know, come up. It was It was a Friday night. I think it was a Friday afternoon and whatever it was was happening on Saturday. And I've got a niece that lives in Martin and has [00:40:30] a, um uh, one of those businesses. Those trailer hauling overnight thingies. And I said to Vic, Look, I'll get my niece and that get you on the truck. Comfortable big truck to come up. I said, um, you just gotta get to palmy. So anyway, my niece actually bought him a ticket to palmy. We organised that. And then she went over and picked him up at Palmy and took him back to her place in Martin until the truck left. And, um, anyway, I went over to G a in Auckland to pick him up when when the truck [00:41:00] came there. And, of course, I had Maj. On. I'm not getting dressed for nobody. It's three o'clock in the morning, so I've got maj on no makeup looking like shit, you know? And he gets in in in the, um, car, and he's cracking up laughing. He said, Oh, my God, he's he I don't think I've ever seen you look like that. So, you know, we we just had some wonderful laughs and times and and shared so many personal um, parts of our life that [00:41:30] I would never repeat of Of how he's trusted me with. And I would never He was He was a very proud man. He actually passed away on my birthday last year, the my 65th birthday on the 28th of August. And for me, that just gives me a bond of a lifetime bond. I miss this man. I truly miss this man. [00:42:00] And I hadn't really grieved for him until maybe about three or four weeks ago when I was at Charlie Peter's house with Lance and it and I just lost it. I couldn't control my grief. And and I thank Charlie and that for bringing that out or letting me bring that out. Um, I really need to acknowledge Bruce and Ron, and I say this [00:42:30] from his mouth. He loved and respected you, and he always said that to me. Always. The love he had for you both was immeasurable. Roger. He always said that he was very, very grateful for all the help that you gave him through his journey with winds or housing. And all of the So he acknowledges you too. Um, [00:43:00] I know he's a big loss to a lot of people. And I'm sorry I wasn't gonna tear up. I'm trying not to. So I'm really not going to, um, go much further into this because I think we all know how we feel about it. But a friend sent me this. He Googled something. He was looking for something in a card. Everywhere I seem to go lately, I see Vic and he was googling this and he sent it to me. Now it's blown up, and it's not very good, because [00:43:30] it's you can't really read it. But his face And there's a verse here and that popped up on Google. And I'm going to read this verse because it's very I think appropriate. So I finish my chat and I thank you again Wellington, for having me here. What? This is the verse. What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us. [00:44:00] We love you, Vic. Um, there's some support agencies mentioned here. Body positive, positive women and NZAF. Um, I wonder if the spokes person mentioned for each of us would like to come forward and say a few words about what we do, what they [00:44:30] do. Thank you. Um, my name is, um, Steve McVeigh. I think I know most people here. I've met people before. Um, I'm a counsellor and private practise here in Wellington, And, uh, I work mostly with, um LGBT people and people living with HIV. Um, but normally in smaller groups and so talking in front of people When I was asked to do this, my stomach turned. So forgive me. Um, so and [00:45:00] I'm also living with HIV myself. Um, I'm also a peer support navigator for body positive. Um, And so, um, support for people living in Wellington has kind of trans transformed over the past few years. And it's largely been a result of, um, a RT medications turning what has What was a manageable illness into a chronic condition, the mindset of body positive and other agencies around the world? Is that what what they've taken [00:45:30] is to treat HIV not as, uh, AIDS victims need only primary help, such as winds and housing, et cetera. Although that is still a really important part and component of support, but rather to treat HIV as any other normalised chronic condition and to empower people to be in control of their own lives. And so, essentially moving from a handout philosophy to what I've been empowered to step up and be part of the decision making process for services that are supposed supposed to be there to support us. [00:46:00] Um, and this is a guide in in line with principles and guidelines set out by UN aids of GPA, which is greater involvement of people living with HIV and a IS, uh, MP A, which is meaning involvement of meaningful involvement of people living with HIV and a I, and also which is meaning involvement of women living with HIV and AIDS. I shouldn't forget that one, Jane. Um but they're really important and, um [00:46:30] and they made a big difference as well. Um also that there is a free, cheaper audit which any organisation that offers support for HIV is welcome to undertake. And I think it would be really helpful to see a few more organisations taking up that opportunity. And Well, um, you know, in New Zealand, um so with any transition from a kind of step up or kind of hand out to step up kind of, uh, platform for support. It hasn't been without us hiccups. Uh, but [00:47:00] I think you know, especially in Wellington. Now, we've seen some really exciting things happen. Um, there are a few support options available in Wellington. So aside from my counselling service plug, um um, NZF also offer some limited counselling for people living with HIV they and friends affected by HIV. Um, but it's body positive that have already taken the lead in developing and providing peer support pathways for, um, people living [00:47:30] with HIV. And it's peer support has proven to be the most effective way for people to come with, um, come to terms with their diagnosis and on their journey. And that's, um, you know, research, evidence based stuff. Um, so with how peer navigation works, I'm one of the peer navigators in Wellington, and I think they're looking for another one, actually. So if everyone's to do that and have a chat, but also, uh, So when somebody is newly diagnosed or at risk of dropping out of care, uh, they'll be referred to a peer navigator. [00:48:00] Um uh, who is also living with HIV and can talk in an open and honest personal level of what it's like to live with HIV. So things like which pharmers are pharmacies are helpful and you know that kind of thing. Um, so it's essentially to normalise the experience of, um, how it is. I mean, physically, we're gonna be fine as long as we sustain or achieve and then sustain an undetectable viral load. The most damaging thing that affects us is the isolation and stigma. [00:48:30] And, um and this can happen at any stage of the diagnosis or journey, even after years of living with HIV. Um, this isolation stigma is something we all too often get used to that er rather than stand up to. And it's something that we often don't even recognise anymore. So that's something we should it help helpful to be reminded of. So from a few meetings with the Navigator, what tends to happen is that person will become more comfortable with their status and then feel comfortable [00:49:00] enough to meet other local people living with HIV and come along to one of our, um, body deposited monthly meetups. So this is on the third Tuesday of every month, every month, and we get a chance to, uh, kind of socially catch up. There'll be a topic we discuss or someone is invited to present on a topic, and then we'll head out for some delicious and cheap dumplings. Um, So when I started this group two years ago, um, for the first three or four months, there were two or three of us at each [00:49:30] meeting. And and now there's 35 that come along. Um, so it's been a really successful kind of thing. People are valuing connection. Um, so from this group, there are other activities and events that people can go on to now that they have a supportive and understanding base. Um, such as the Positive Speakers Bureau, which is and are governed by positive women, Um, and also the PO Positive Leader Leadership Development Programme. So many acronyms in this sector, [00:50:00] um, and both of these trainings are really incredible enriching weekends, and people often go on from those things to do some really amazing things in the community. A group of the Wellington PLD I graduates recently started Project Toto. I haven't said that right. Sorry. Thank you. And, um and so this this is a project that is its aim is to record [00:50:30] publish and archive stories of long term survivors with a focus on local and aotearoa stories. This project was inspired by similar long term survivors projects one happening in the world in San Francisco called Let's Kick Ass. I'm not being rude. It's AIDS Survivor syndrome, Um, and which was started by a San Francisco based long term survivors group who, while suffering from AIDS Survivor syndrome, were witnessing their stories [00:51:00] being eradicated from the public record within their own lifetime, which is clearly not OK. Um, so all of these services groups and projects provide support for people living with HIV, and it's really great that newly diagnosed people are now getting into the support straight away. Um, it's important to remember that quite often it's people living with HIV who have had had it for a long time and kind of just get on with it. Um, who can be at most risk of isolation and internalised stigma [00:51:30] and even dropping out of care? And as we've seen, there can be some pretty devastating repercussions when that happens. And so when I I you know, I get a little concerned when I hear people say I don't need support, you know, because you know, I used to say that as well. Um, there are also other online platforms for support, such as the institute of many, or Tim, which is another PLD. I graduate, Um, started that one. And also positive kiwis, amongst others. Um, [00:52:00] support to me means connection with somebody else or other people. And connection requires a kind of exposure of the self. And exposure is the antidote to stigma and isolation. And so wherever you are on your journey or where you're companion in somebody on a journey, then support can make a real difference on behalf of, uh, people living with HIV in Wellington. I'd like to thank James Rice, who's [00:52:30] here somewhere and the ID team at the hospital and also Ron and Eric for organising today. Um, and also thanks for listening, listening to me today. And if anybody wants to get in touch about any of the services I spoke to, then please do come and say hello. Thank you. Hi. Um, I'm gonna talk about positive women. Positive women is a support organisation [00:53:00] for women and families living with HIV. It was started in, um, in 1990. Um, at that time there were a lot of, um, gay men being diagnosed with HIV. And we started at the end of the eighties to see women being diagnosed. But there were no, um, facilities available, Really, that were women focused. And as a result of that, positive women were started. A lot of those women were that started the organisation Were women living with HIV [00:53:30] and most of those women are no longer with us. And, um but I just really want to acknowledge those looking back at the past because it was because of those women that positive women are still here as an organisation. 28 years later, Um, you know, HIV, I'm gonna talk specifically about women because that's our focus. But, you know, if we look at the the earlier days of HIV, it wasn't called that it was called AIDS, and women in the earlier days were, um, encouraged [00:54:00] to to abort their Children, um were encouraged not to have Children And what we've seen over the years because of the antiretrovirals that women are now able to have babies that are now not living with HIV. Um, now, with the, um also with the antiretrovirals and the new equals. You, um, able to have unprotected sex with a partner and have babies naturally before that, they used to use the old turkey based method or infertility and going to the fertility clinics. [00:54:30] So there's been huge changes in that regard for women. And, um, I guess one thing I really want to focus. I'm only gonna do a very short talk because I know you're tired. It's the end of the evening nearly. But something that has been of huge concern for us is, um, in 2014, um, a woman called Tanya Booker. Um was in hospital. Uh, she was very, very sick. She had been sick for two years and she had been in and out of hospital, had lots of operations, had lots of blood tests. Um, [00:55:00] and nobody could identify what was wrong with her. Finally, after, um, having PC P, one of the AIDS defining illnesses. She was, um, tested for HIV and was diagnosed as positive, and, um, was supposed to be OK. She's gonna get well, get rid of the PC P and, um, get onto antiretrovirals. Unfortunately, the PC P had ravaged her body so badly that she died. So five days later, at the same time, we also had [00:55:30] another woman exactly the same time who spoke to you earlier this evening in hospital with pretty similar kind of conditions. Been sick for many, many years in and out of hospitals tested nobody thinking to offer an HIV test. Finally, for this woman. She was offered a test, um, and and survived. However, she has really, um, huge, um, complications as a result of that. So her life is no longer what it was before she was diagnosed. [00:56:00] As a result, positive women has been campaigning, um, really strongly over the last few years to, um, ensure that the health profession offers tests for women because women are not seen to be a naturalist group. So it's really disheartening to hear that last year a woman was in hospital again and, um, in a coma. And finally they decided to give her an HIV test. Um and she was diagnosed with HIV and died three days later. [00:56:30] So I think you know, for myself, uh, this is my 30th year of living with HIV. I'm not quite sure how I survived those days. Um, and when I was diagnosed, there were no medications. But when I think that you know these two women, three women, actually, um, one thankfully survived through that, but the other two dying in this day and age where there's absolutely no need for people to be dying. Um, the statistics show that, um, 46% of women are [00:57:00] diagnosed with a CD four count, less than 300 76% of women with a CD four count, Um, below 500. For those of you who don't know what a CD four count is, that's basically your immune system. So the lower that count is, um the less healthy you are and and the more difficult it is to recoup. So I just wanna leave, um, with a message. Really? And I'd like everyone in the room if you can to really campaign in any any way that you can that, um, HIV testing [00:57:30] be offered as a routine diagnostic process for anybody. Um, and including women in particular, There's no, you know, type. Anybody can contract HIV. So thank you very much for having me here. Cut. Everyone, wake up. OK, Vote for me. [00:58:00] No. God, Don't vote for me. Uh, so, um, my name is Lee. I'm the community engagement coordinator at the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. Um so networking and supporting with other organisations plays a big part in my role. Uh, without the their support, we we wouldn't succeed at all. Um, not only organisations, but our wonderful community members, uh are, um are so important. Uh, without [00:58:30] all, uh, without all of us together, uh, it would be impossible of reaching our goals to end in new HIV transmissions, uh, as well as destigmatize HIV within our communities. Uh, more so towards people living with IV by educating with the UVL and U equals U campaigns, which is coming out shortly. So watch this space. Um, in Wellington. Uh, the health services such as regional health and public health, [00:59:00] uh, sexual health, needle exchange, uh, medical centres, uh, NZ PC and also with body positive when I use Wellington base. Uh, and many more. Uh, all have a close working relationship and has always been a massive supporter, which we are truly grateful, uh, within, uh, youth services and organisations such as, uh, vibe um evolve, uh, youth one. I have to say this slow youth, [00:59:30] One stop shop. Is that right? Yes. Just yes. Uh, inside out outer spaces. Taranaki, Rainbow mal Directions, Directions. Youth services. Uh, youth services, trust Capital, youth services, Uh, to name a few, uh, to up their support is so important in forming, uh, our queer trends youth and students around HIV A I DS stigma and [01:00:00] testing, uh, and our prevention strategies, especially with prep being more accessible. Uh, vic Uni, uh, mass welltech EIT. And you, um, universities are also great supporters and have had their collateral condoms and testing in their health services. Uh, rainbow, uh, venues such as S and MS, Ivy Bar, Fringe bar, uh, Phoenix Cafe and [01:00:30] Unity Books, Uh, for their ongoing support throughout the years, Uh, and also Wellington's Rainbow support groups as well, um, our wonderful volunteer not forgetting our wonderful volunteers, uh, group that are continuously weekly supporting, packing condoms and distribute that get distributed around our regions, Uh, regional venues from TAA to Hawke's Bay, all the way down to Wellington, Uh, also supporting our sponsored events such as, uh, out in the park, [01:01:00] uh, pride parade and World AIDS Day. Uh, and that's just to name a few, uh, thank you again for your support. We really can't do this without you. Killed her? [01:01:30] [01:02:00] [01:02:30] Yeah. [01:03:00] For those who don't know I am Kayla Rian. I was sitting over there ready to do a little speech. For some reason, I don't think it's, um right. So I'm going to just say how I feel. When we saw the names [01:03:30] on the wall there, I realised I knew nearly half of those people. I was honoured and privileged to meet a man. 30 years ago, his name was Ta Donohue. Now he was HIV positive. He later come to the AIDS. But during his time of his illness, he did not sit idly by in silence and suffer. He went out, he took upon himself and [01:04:00] he began a project which was the national people living with a union and magazine so he can give to those people like himself. Information regarding medications available. Um, safe living efficacy and support network. That was 30 years ago. Over the years, what was known as the NPL W a union [01:04:30] has progressed, and today it is known as body positive. I'd like to give a big thank you to Bruce, who I have actually known for quite a number of years. But, um, to me personally, body positive is an outstanding organisation. Why? Some people might think I'm [01:05:00] all on to body positive because they give back to those with HIV and a I DS what society and even some of our own communities have taken away love, understanding, compassion, guidance and hope. But most importantly, they gave him a voice. [01:05:30] One of the most important things that they have given them back is dignity. I was very privileged, as I said before, to meet Donohue. Like Karen, who I've known for a few years, she mentioned something which could something can be. And, um, Mr Vick Burrell. [01:06:00] I was with the for the last 24 hours. He was in hospital here in Wellington. I was his bodyguard. I ensure no one to when you want to rest. Bye. I took on the right. I took on the role of caregiver. I changed his bed linen. I changed his [01:06:30] diapers. I took him for a sneaky smoke outside. Yeah, they gonna lock me up in the hospital, but, um, the whole thing over these years has become too much for me to sort of like cope with. I lost my brother many, many years ago when the virus was first around, but not really recognised. My brother. Some of you know him, his name was he used [01:07:00] to live and work for unfortunately, back then, people could see the effects of when when you got the virus and you passing away. But I know because I could see I could the lesions on his arms under his skin. Um, I'm one of those silly people. It takes me a while to let go of my grief for anyone who's passed. [01:07:30] But I remember See, back in back in the day, the candlelight memorial. It was like a grand event. Love, laughter, sadness, fond memories of those of our loved ones that we have lost. We shouldn't pick it that we should bring it back to how it was. This is not just us taking a few hours out of our day on a Sunday once [01:08:00] in a while to show up and say, Yeah, we support. I am going to try and get the community to come together next year with my friends and we're gonna bring it back. How it was we had the quilt. Remember the quilt? Where is it? We owe our friends loved ones, brothers and sisters Dignity in death as we do in life. [01:08:30] And that's how we should remember them with our fond memories of good time's head. And, you know, the last hugs and intimate moments shared. I mean, let let us not let the light burn out or fade away Let it burn even brighter in our hearts. [01:09:00] Um, Bruce Body positive does a job. As I said before, they like the front line. We have great organisations who help promote. As my friend Leo has explained before, I'm actually the, um, one of the founding members for NZ PC. We distribute condoms. What have you We do our part? Um, [01:09:30] we're all there to support, but I think a little bit more needs to be done. I noticed that over the years body positive was there in regards to people like Vic Bird. They gave him back everything. They gave him his dignity. He passed the way he wanted as though it was going to a coffee shop and having a coffee. Everything was done According to his wishes. There were no one there to say. You can't do this. You can't [01:10:00] do that. But when push comes to shove on the last day when he was due to travel back from Wellington up to where he was with body positive that step forward, we'll pay for the transport. We'll arrange the ambulance to pick you up and so forth. From what I hear, it was an excellent um sorry for, you know, Excellent. Um, I suppose since I spent time [01:10:30] writing this thing, I might as well read the last part. Yeah, yeah, I thought you like that one. OK, we must support the good work that that has been done by such groups like Body Positive and the The Candlelight Memorial was a grand event. Let us not always allow that light to fade, [01:11:00] but to forever be brighter in our hearts. OK, I've got some words to say about now is a community group based in Wellington [01:11:30] that welcomes people of diverse sexual and gender identity. Maori are the indigenous people of New Zealand in modern terminology. Is a Maori individual that identifies as queer, gay, lesbian, bisexual, trans the or purpose of the group is a prime is primarily for building its community, telling [01:12:00] its stories and leaving a legacy that will expire inspire others exists for the community and gives meaning to its through different threads Advice, advocacy and support of L GP T I community we take this time to thank you for sharing and participating in this age International candlelight. Thank you. [01:12:30] No, uh closing words May the road rise to meet you May the wind be always at your back May the sun shine warm upon your face The rains fall soft upon your fields And until we meet again May God hold you in the palm of her hand Amen. [01:13:00] OK, thanks.

IRN: 1234
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089831
TITLE: IDAHOBIT 2018
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VOICES: Andrew Falloon; Bella Simpson; Brendan McBryde; Brody Leathem; Chris Bishop; Jan Logie; Jem Traylen; Kura Moeahu; Lola Elle Bellamy-Hill; Louisa Wall; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Nicola Willis; Taine Polkinghorne; Tim Barnett; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2000s; 2010s; Andrew Falloon; Bella Simpson; Bisexual flag; Brendan McBryde; Brody Leathem; Chris Bishop; Civil Union Act (2004); Destiny Church; Enough is Enough (2004, Destiny Church rally); Georgina Beyer; Green Party; Human Rights Commission; InsideOUT Kōaro; International Day Against Homophobia, Biphobia, Transphobia and Intersexphobia (IDAHOIBT - 17 May); Intersex flag; Jacinda Ardern; Jan Logie; Jem Traylen; Kura Moeahu; Lola Elle Bellamy-Hill; Louisa Wall; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Member of Parliament; Mental Health Foundation; National Party; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand Labour Party; Nicola Willis; Parliament buildings; Pink Shirt Day; Rainbow NZ Parliamentary Network; Rainbow Youth; Rainbow flag; Sexual Abuse Prevention Network; Taine Polkinghorne; Tim Barnett; Tino Rangatiratanga; Tino Rangatiratanga flag; Transgender flag; Trevor Mallard; Tīwhanawhana; acceptance; adoption; biphobia; bisexual; budget; community; compassion; diversity; diversity education; education; flags; gay; government; health; hive mind; homophobia; homosexual; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; human rights; indigenous peoples; inspiration; intersex; intersex phobia; leadership; legal rights; lesbian; love; media; non-binary; queer; school; takatāpui; transgender; transphobia; visibility; youth
DATE: 17 May 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So this morning we're at parliament. Um, it's the weather has cleared up. It's been pouring all week, and we have this. It's literally stopped raining 20 minutes ago. Um, it's nice. No breeze, no wind, which is rare. Um, and we're here for International Day against homophobia, biphobia, transphobia and intersex phobia. Yeah, and and from my perspective, um, all the that means prayers. We've been saying, uh, for our rainbow gods to shine down on us have come true. I mean, it's a very [00:00:30] special day today. Uh, for a couple of years now, we've been able to fly the rainbow flag, But today to also fly our trans flag, our flag, our intersex flag, which really does encompass all of our rainbow communities, I think is something that we, as New Zealand, should be incredibly proud of. So I do want to take the opportunity to thank Mr Speaker, Uh, because in fact, he is the one who's made this possible. And already there's a massive gathering of people so happy. Uh, Ida, Hobbit day, everybody. Yeah. And [00:01:00] don't forget your pink shirts tomorrow. So? So where did this come from? What's the history of the flags flying at Parliament. Uh, so the history of the flags flying at Parliament really started with the 30th anniversary of homosexual law reform. That was the first ever time the rainbow flag had been flown. Uh, last year, our cross party Rainbow Group asked Mr Speaker if we could fly the rainbow flag on a day, Uh, and he consented. And this year we've expanded it. As I said to four flags, Uh, one of the ongoing [00:01:30] questions is about indigenous representation. Um, and that will happen. I don't think, uh, there is a generic indigenous rainbow flag across the world, so we would have to look at what that flag is for for us in New Zealand. And to be honest, I think it is the flag because are part of. So if we were to have one, that would be the flag. What is the significance of flying flags in Parliament? Um, it really highlights the government's support [00:02:00] towards our communities. Um, it takes it from that like, we're a really supportive phase to actually like we're doing everything we can to show that we're here. We care. We're visible, um, and that we are wanting to make a difference within our wider community. And I think by, um, working and pushing really hard to get more flags out here is really great. Oh, no, I agree. I think that, uh, the relationship that, um, parliament actually has with our rainbow communities has been consolidated [00:02:30] since the establishment of our cross party group. It's great to see the Human Rights Commission here, in fact, and they are going to become more of an active partner in enabling us to come together. And they're more of a critical link with the community because a lot of the issues we continue to fight for our human rights issues. They are issues to do with, uh, our public services. Are we sufficiently supported in our education system in our health system and our justice system? So the partners that we have actually reinforced the theme this year, which is alliances [00:03:00] for solidarity. And so we know now as a community that we're not alone, that we're 100% supported, I believe by, uh, those institutions, um, including parliament. So I'm I'm incredibly proud of our community and like, shout out to Louisa, who has actively pushed for better rights within our community and isn't just the whole generic. The homosexuals need more rights. It's actually everything. It's the wider community, the trans community, the intersex community [00:03:30] by a community and the gay community. If somebody couldn't be here today, would you have any special message for them? I think my special message is really that there are a lot of us out and proud here to support. Please, don't ever feel like you're alone. Uh, actually, we're a pretty strong, solid group of people that are always available to to talk and support, especially our young ones, who are just realising who they are. I mean, they're incredibly vulnerable. Some of them, um, [00:04:00] so I know that you're never alone and that your identity is valid. It's real. And it's important. It doesn't matter what anyone else says. That identity is yours, and you can do with it whatever you want, not what others tell you to do. Could you just describe for me, um, what the significance is of, um, the flags being flown at Parliament today, and for me personally, that there is going to be an intersex flag raised this morning. I've been a member of the Rainbow Community all my life. But as far as I know, [00:04:30] this is the first in the world. There's never been an intersex flag raised in front of a Parliament anywhere so historic, wonderful, exciting. So, um, it's a It's an important morning. We are thinking about homophobia, transphobia. And so there's two parts to today the celebration and excitement, but actually calling out the fact that these issues still exist in New Zealand and we've still got more work to do. Well, we're raising four [00:05:00] flags this morning outside Parliament, the rainbow flag, the trans flag, the flag and the intersex flag. As he said, the speaker, Trevor Mallard has graciously agreed to to do that. And we're just really excited to see, um, that kind of representation outside of our House of Representatives. What? What do the flags mean to you? Personally? I'm a trans person, a trans guy. So, um, as well, I'm really excited that there's going to be, um, my flag flying today outside. [00:05:30] So for me, um, because of my age, I came out under the rainbow flag. So a queer identified person all my life, I'm also non-binary So the transgender flag has meaning for me. But I guess what touches my heart this morning is the intersex flag. Because if you like, it's the newest kid on the block. And I'm just proud that it will also be flying alongside the other three flags this morning. I feel like it's a It's a [00:06:00] symbolic acknowledgement. I mean, it is only 11 gesture and there's there's a lot else which goes around this gesture to make it really credible and meaningful. Um, but would this have happened 5, 10, 15 years ago? Yeah, I think it's really, really significant just to have visibility. It's important not to only have visibility, but but it is. Yeah, it's a good place to stand. So [00:06:30] yes. Uh, we're here on the Thursday the 17th of May, which is not only Budget Day here at Parliament, but we're celebrating the International Day against homophobia, bi AOA and transphobia. And this is at least the second time. It's been marked here at Parliament, um, with a ceremonial raising of flags. But this morning we are going to be flying four flags, the rainbow flag, the flag, the trans flag and the intersex flag. And, uh, we've invited representatives of gender and sexual minorities community from around the country to to be here with us to celebrate it. Uh, Lesa [00:07:00] Wall will be hosting, and, uh, yeah, we're ready for a bit of a a bit of a celebration here. Why is it significant to to have the flags raised on the four quarter of parliament? Well, um, it's I suppose that the the the principle is that it symbolises that New Zealand, uh, in terms of its policy and its its government attitude towards human rights. Uh, is that, uh, you know, equality is enshrined in our in the way that we do things here. So the fact [00:07:30] that it's flying right outside the houses of Parliament is about as as official, an endorsement of the sentiment that you could get to to to your knowledge, Are there any other community flags that are raised on the full court of Parliament? To my knowledge, no. The only flags that are typically raised at Parliament are country flags for visiting delegations. So if there's a group coming from the Philippines, for example, we'll put up the Philippine flag. Um, th this is unusual. [00:08:00] I believe in the sense that we're not flying geographical flags. We're flying flags that represent communities. So how did you get involved? Uh, well, I'm the executive assistant to Louisa Wall, and she often dreams up, um, crazy and brilliant ideas like this. So, um yeah, I believe she She took the reins on this event last year. And, uh, just due to its success and her continued involvement with the community is doing it again. And I'm along for the ride. And you mentioned earlier about some groups that are going to be attending today. Can you tell me, um, [00:08:30] who who's gonna be attending? I certainly can. I can. I can do my best. We're going to have representatives from the New Zealand AIDS Foundation inside out. Sexual abuse Prevention, Mental Health Foundation. Um, various students associations. We've got Rainbow Youth and, of course, the Human Rights Commission, who have been basically co organising this whole thing along the way. If somebody couldn't be here today and, uh, you had a message for them, what would that be? Love. Love for everyone. Basically, that's that's it. [00:09:00] Very shortly. The flags are about to go up, but the first one to go up will be the New Zealand flag and then, um, and then followed by the rainbow flags. And I understand that they'll be going up one by one. And as that happens, as each one goes up, there will be a to the flags. Basically, it's lifting it up to to the universe. Um and then once the have done, I understand we've got a here to to and [00:09:30] and then once, once that that's we've done the four flags and the we're gonna have a photo on the steps of Parliament so we can record it. And then we're gonna go and have a and A Yeah, yeah, [00:10:00] [00:10:30] [00:11:00] in the the [00:11:30] hey the hey, you [00:12:00] Sorry. I [00:12:30] [00:13:00] [00:13:30] pretty Yeah, [00:14:00] [00:14:30] [00:15:00] we teach it and teach it earlier. See? Said right it [00:15:30] to [00:16:00] Hello, baby. [00:16:30] The speakers of parliament And then we'll go, Tim, What is it like seeing the, um, the full flag flying on the court of Parliament today? Well, it reminds me the last time I saw a rainbow flag flying from here was actually over the door of Parliament against the rules. When the destiny march was sitting in parliament, The 5000 guys in black shirts coming up here, and Georgina Baer [00:17:00] and Ramon, my partner and a few others managed to get a rainbow flag flying off Parliament just to make the point. So I think we come a few days since since then that would be 2004. So, yeah, I mean 14 years, not even a generation. And and there's this wonderful sense of acceptance. There's always a way to go. But I mean, I think we have made extraordinary strong between getting getting some sense of legality and getting those fundamental rights and then almost the same length of time [00:17:30] until we're We're now here and we're proud and we're we're open. What are some of the things that still need to be striven for? What? What are some of the issues? Still, I think probably the only the only law reform one which is fundamental is the adoption issue, which has got caught up in a much bigger adoption reform matter. But I think we have a government now with the mindset to change that, and apart from that, it's really about implementation. It's always about, I mean, whether it's sensitive policies around suicide, around schools, around a whole lot of [00:18:00] other environments. It's just making sure that we are recognised and that we're there, that we're named, that we we're consulted and that we're part of the conversation. And I think having having a bunch of MPs not only actually not only lesbian and gay transgender MPs here, but also those. I mean, most of the MPs who turned up this morning aren't from any of those categories. They actually people who are actively and warmly supportive. And it's it's actually fascinating to see that you've got MPs here. I mean, right across the spectrum. So whereas [00:18:30] the National MPs used to turn up with these things where you can predict which ones are going to come now, these these this stuff is pretty much mainstream so that that sense of struggle is a lot more subtle than it used to be. It was pretty overt, pretty angry, and now it's, uh, it's in the background. The odd person says dumb things, But, uh, I think we leave it often for the media to condemn them, and I think the media also shifted on as well. If somebody couldn't be here today, what would be a message for them? do you think? I think the message [00:19:00] is this is the most powerful institution in the land that in in the space of just over one generation, really it's moved from having massive petitions being presented on the steps against our our right to exist, really through to a situation where, where the flags fly outside, where parliament embraces a lesbian, intersex, gay transgender bunch of activists. And [00:19:30] I think that's all that's all a wonderful statement. Can you describe what it's like seeing these flags up here? Oh, look, it's just fantastic. And it's, you know, I think the fact you've got MP S from basically across the Parliament here and obviously I'm the the national rep on the the cross party Rainbow Network. Um, got Andrew here and, um, who's just come into Parliament and Wallace, who's just coming into Parliament as well from national. I think the fact you've got the whole parliament here, um, represented I think it's the most important thing that it's Parliament, saying that we want to be a country [00:20:00] of inclusivity. We want to be a country that recognises diversity. We want to be a compassionate society and allow everyone to fulfil their potential. Uh, no matter what background they come from, or no matter what gender they are, or no matter what sexuality they are, so, you know, it's it was quite uplifting to stand here this morning, and, you know, as the as the sun comes up to, uh, watch the faces go up at the same time. What about you, Andrew? Oh, look wonderful. I mean, as Chris said, uh, it's just a shine. Uh, it's just a sign for us as a parliament that we are, uh, as open as we can be to all people of all backgrounds, uh, and and and and and for me as a new MP, [00:20:30] uh, just, uh, getting across and and meeting as many people as they can from all backgrounds and being as inclusive as we can. Yeah, look the of diversity and a statement of inclusivity, and that's a great way to start the day. What is it like seeing the four flags flying at Parliament? I think it's incredibly beautiful, and I I'm really surprised and a little surprised by how symbolic it feels to me to see the two New Zealand flags and then the buy flag the intersex flag, the rainbow flag and the trans flag. It [00:21:00] feels like an absolute kind of display of the beauty of diversity and who we are as a country. Well, um I was in tears, basically when the rainbow flag went up, and I just, um I'm just almost speechless. In fact, I was also looking up at the top floor of the beehive and saying, Thank you, Jacinda. Um and I think it's symbolic the flag went up first because to be honest, in our community, they're the biggest minority, and they have no visibility whatsoever. [00:21:30] And then the intersex one, which is like again, you know, they're right at the back of the queue and they need the most help because nobody understands or he has even heard of them. Then we've got the rainbow flag, which is the whole centre of our universe, and then the the trans flag, which is just like for us trans people who, like we've been waiting decades for some help from our community because, you know, basically our life expectancy is probably about 20 years less than the average person in this country. So we [00:22:00] expect big things from this government and they said they're going to deliver and we're going to hold them to that. I don't know. I just felt very inspired. You know, there's nothing especially seeing the communal spirit and seeing kind of one like low key cheer when they're like everything's being raised. I don't know. It's just it's good to know there's, like, a high of mind, I guess, in this kind of like drowning head of climate, you know what I mean? I don't know. I'm just too early to be inspirational, I guess. [00:22:30] Jan, can I just ask you if somebody couldn't be here this morning to see the flags raised? What? What what message would you give to them? Well, that I guess our diverse communities are part of the work of Parliament, and it's fantastic to see them reflected on our forecourt and that this is, I guess part of leadership is to bring our communities that have been locked out into, um, [00:23:00] this place that is supposedly the place of representatives, and it's really beautiful to see the kind of the dawn rise and and our flags rise for a better future. I don't know. It's a bit cheesy, but it's kind of yeah, it feels cool.

IRN: 1232
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089830
TITLE: Rainbow history - Shift hui (2018)
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VOICES: Aliyah Winter; Lee Eklund; Max Tweedie
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; About Face: Jewel's Darl (tv, 1985); Act Up; Aliyah Winter; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Aunty Dana's Op Shop; Carmen Rupe; Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Carterton; Dana de Milo; Democratic Republic of the Congo; Eartha Kitt; Evolve Wellington Youth Service; Family Planning; Gender Minorities Aotearoa (GMA); Georgina Beyer; Green Cross Pharmacy; Grim Reaper (advertisement); Grindr; HIV / AIDS; HIV stigma; HIV transmission; Intersex Trust Aotearoa New Zealand (ITANZ); Intersexion (film); Lee Eklund; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Max Tweedie; Member of Parliament; Māori Women's Welfare League; NZ On Screen; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Parliament buildings; Paul Henry; Pharmaceutical Management Agency (Pharmac); PrEP (Pre-Exposure Prophylaxis); PrEP shaming; Prostitution Reform Act (2003); STI; San Francisco; Shift hui; Shift hui (2018); Sydney; Te Horouta Marae; Truvada; Undetectable = Untransmittable (U=U, campaign); United Kingdom; United States of America; Vancouver; Wairarapa; Youth; abortion; bird flu; cancer; coming out; condomless sex; condoms; dating; dating app; discrimination; gender identity; gonorrhea; history; homosexual law reform; injection drug user (IDU); intersex; marriage equality; medications; methamphetamine; msm; nude beaches; police; pornography; prevention; public health; radio; sex; sex education; sex positivity; sex work; sexual health; sexual identity; swine flu; testing; traffic light; transgender; undetectable viral load; visibility
DATE: 20 April 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Te Horouta Marae, Whitford Brown Avenue, Papakōwhai, Porirua
CONTEXT: An exploration of some of the fascinating stories from the histories of our queer communities - focusing on trans history in Wellington and the history of HIV AIDS in New Zealand. Speakers include Aliyah Winter, Lee Eklund and Max Tweedie. A special thank you to the participants and InsideOUT for allowing this session to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um, everyone. Um my name is Max, and I see her pronouns and I work for the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. My name's AA. She her pronouns, And I'm I'm just here in this panel to talk to you about. We're also waiting for the wonderful Lee, who for some reason, has disappeared, um, and was going to lead the history part. Um, but I guess, um, I yeah, I don't know. What do you want to start? [00:00:30] I'm gonna talk a little bit about trans history in Wellington and some of the people that, um trans and intersex history and some of the people that sort of paved the way for that. So some of this information might be familiar to you, but I just thought I would, you know, kind of give a a brief overview of this kind of stuff. So does anyone know Georgina Baer? Yeah, everyone's heard of her. So Georgina, by, um, [00:01:00] she was actually born in. And, um, which is a suburb in Wellington. Um, she was, um, a trans woman. And she was actually the first, um, trans person to be elected to parliament in the world. So that's a really awesome thing because that she was the first, you know, And a lot of people kind of don't always know about that. Um, so by, uh, um, she [00:01:30] became a part of the Wellington gay nightclub scene initially as a singer and a drag queen and performer and later as a sex worker as well, which was a big part of her work. So she did a lot of work towards, um, decriminalising prostitution as well. Um, and she also when she was elected to parliament, she was living in the in this place called, which is sort of quite a, um has a reputation for being quite a small place. I mean, [00:02:00] yeah, it's sort of like further in India, in the middle of the North Island. Um, and weirdly enough, she also worked on Paul Henry's radio station. Um, which is just funny. Um, yeah, that's basically what I wanted to say about her. She was in this really great film as well called Jill's doll, which was sort of revolutionary for its time. I think it was made in the early eighties, and you can watch it on [00:02:30] NZ on screen. Um, and it's a great film about the relationship between a drag queen and a trans woman, and Georgina plays a Trans woman in the film. Um, I also wanted to talk about Marie Mitchell. Does anyone know who money is? Yeah, that's really cool. Um, so since, um, 1996 Marie Mitchell has been actively involved in education on intersex and gender variance issues. So they've done a lot of work [00:03:00] for intersex people, but also for trans people as well. Attending, um, conferences and advocating for, um, health, lecturing at universities, running workshops around the world and TV documentaries, a film and a photography book. So there's a really great, um, documentary about money's work called Intersection about their life as well. Um, and there's a There's a lot of, um, kind of stuff online about [00:03:30] money that is really good to look at. Um and yeah, man. Also set up, um, the Intersex Trust of a New Zealand, um, which was sort of one of the first, um, organisations of its kind in the world as well, specifically for intersex people. Um, which is really awesome. And that's awesome to have someone like that who's still very active [00:04:00] in the the Wellington Queer community and in the international intersex community as well. Um, yeah. Another person I wanted to talk about is Donna De Milo. Does anyone know who she is? Was she recently passed away this year? Um, so she was a, um a local trans woman in Wellington. And at the time that she was sort of coming of age was in the, um, [00:04:30] early 19 sixties, she moved from Auckland to Wellington, and at that time it was still illegal to be, um, you know, a member of the opposite sex wearing clothing of the opposite gender. Um, so this was a time where lots of trans people were being thrown in jail just for wearing the clothes they wanted to wear. Um, and she's been She was a relentless advocate for the trans community, Um, and [00:05:00] was also involved in a lot of HIV and AIDS prevention work, Um, and worked for the Maori Women's Welfare League as well. Um, yeah, and she just she left such a big imprint on the community. And now there is a shop named after her. So there's an organisation called gender minorities. Um, and they're based out of, um, a place in Wellington. And they have an op shop where all the funds [00:05:30] from the op shop go towards, um, go towards the organisation and the op shop is named Auntie Op Shop. Um, yeah. I also wanted to talk about Carmen. Does anyone know Carmen? Yes. She's pretty awesome. Um, so she was a a businesswoman, a brothel keeper, LGBT rights and HIV AIDS activist. Um, and she's really well known here and also [00:06:00] in Australia. She spent a lot of time in Sydney, and that sort of she lived a lot of her life there as well. She was born in, which is sort of a small town, further up north. Um, and she was conscripted into the military in 1955 training as a nurse. And in the same year, she did an impression of Eartha Kitt, who was an old, tiny TV star. Um, and this [00:06:30] was a performance to all of her kind of comrades in the Army, and they gave her a standing ovation the first time she ever did it. And that basically was an indication to her that she a loved performing and B, um, sort of the beginning of her. Um trans journey as well. Um, And then two years later, she moved to Kings Cross in Sydney, where she, um, started transitioning. Um, there's a quote from her here. [00:07:00] As soon as I heard about drag shows opening there, I said, Bye bye. Men's clothes. I never put anything on since never any. Any men's clothes, she means, um, yeah, and equally at this time, police were very, very against trans people, and Carmen was arrested and beaten several times in the fifties and sixties. Um, there's another quote from her here. The police were very, very heavy. They hated gay people. They hated drag queens and they hated lesbians. They used to take us into the police station and give us [00:07:30] a hiding and beat us up. I was locked in Long Bay Prison about a dozen times, but it made me a stronger person today. Um, in 1968 she moved to Wellington. She was a bit done with the kind of difficulty of living in Sydney, and she opened up a coffee bar, which was also a brothel, and with some inheritance that she had from her grandfather, and she named it Carmen's International Coffee Lounge. And it was a famous local hangout for, um, the queer community, basically, and particularly a haven [00:08:00] for trans women. Um, and there's sort of an interesting story that goes along with the coffee lounge, which is that people who lots of people were there just to socialise and have coffee and eat some food and kind of hang out. And then, um, some people were there for to access the, uh, sex working services as well. And people who wanted to indicate that would, um, order a drink and leave their cup in a certain way. Um, so there was there was sort of a language there of like if they wanted [00:08:30] some services, they would leave their cup. It would be, but it would be pretty strange. It was things like tipping your cup on its side or putting a plate on top of your cup and things like they were quite specific, sort of sort of things. And it was generally known who the clients were coming into this kind of place. And that was really just a rule to get around the fact that, um, sex work was illegal at that time. Um, [00:09:00] yeah. And in 1977. She ran for mayor of Wellington. Um, she was, unfortunately, unsuccessful. But she had a really great campaign and actually kind of drummed up a lot of support. Um, she supported gay marriage. Uh, yeah, she legalised prostitution. She advocated for sex education in schools, nude beaches and towards decriminalising abortion. Um, yeah. And all of those proposed reforms [00:09:30] that she was part of proposing are now legal in New Zealand. Um, yeah. And also, if you are in Wellington around the Cuba street area, um, they have changed the green man on the walking lights to a silhouette of Carmen, which is pretty cool. So that's something to look out for. And that's all I have to say. Thank you. Um, yeah. With with cars, traffic lights. [00:10:00] So it makes me laugh because she's the green lady. It should have been the Red Lady because, you know, you put a red light on, and that's what she used to do back in the day. Was, um yeah, so her being green, I think she would be. She would have preferred to be honest. Um, but, uh uh, Donna, um, going back to Donna, Donna was a very good friend of mine. And, um, the stories that she she's told people about back in the day was just horrific. Um, like you said [00:10:30] about the police towards Carmen as well as it wasn't just it was all the girls. And the way that the police used to treat those as well as gay people was just shocking. Um, but I do know that it was the gay community that was probably hiding behind the trans community and the trans community were a lot stronger and could handle a lot more confrontation in the gay community. So they were in the front pretty much taking a lot more than we did for sure. Um, but unfortunately, she did pass away this [00:11:00] year. Um, very quickly. Um, within four months of being diagnosed with cancer, she passed away, which was I. I still can't believe it. To be honest, I still can't believe she's gone, but, um, she's definitely still around. I have to say with that big smile and those big teeth. Bless her. Um, So look, I'm gonna talk about, um uh, the history that I'll talk about, um because I work for the New Zealand AIDS foundation. Uh, I'm a sexual health promoter, and this is Max who works alongside [00:11:30] us as well. So what's your role, Love? Um, so my role is so I'm based up in Auckland, Um, in volunteer events, Um, but also youth and the community engagement team, which is pretty awesome. Cool. And he's a lot younger than me. If you could tell him it's the morning. Don't start. So, um, so, um, the reason why I I'm gonna, um, talk about, um, the AIDS just [00:12:00] briefly the AIDS epidemic. Because it's a huge part of my work and also, um, men who have sex with men. Um, because this all interlinks with the law reform. So, um, no one really knows when the aid effort. Well, when when it first started. But the first case was in San Francisco in 1981 and they didn't know what it was, and there was it was predominantly guys that were [00:12:30] getting really sick, and also there was no cure, and they were dying. So, um, so as you can imagine, it was absolutely freaking everybody out. And, um, and for many of upset with men knowing that men were the ones that were getting more infected was was quite horrific. And then it started where people were dying because there was no cure for it. There was no medication or anything. Um, and that basically led to, um, What do we do here? You know, we need to start [00:13:00] acting on this. And there was a There was a group called Act Up That was in, um, that was in America that, uh, were protesting for medication for better research because no one was doing anything at all. Um, so getting back to, uh, New Zealand. Um, so before 1986 it was illegal not to be gay, but to have sex. So work that out. So you can be gay, but you can't have sex. How [00:13:30] boring is that? What's the? Well, you know, I mean, if if you don't, if you don't have set, that's fine. But majority of people you know probably do so so something needed to be changed. So obviously the AIDS epidemic was happening. And how are we? How are they gonna control this when it's illegal to be? It wasn't. It wasn't really. For women having sex with women, it was based [00:14:00] mainly for men who have sex with men. Um, so how can we sort this epidemic out? Because no man is going to go to a doctor to get tested, to see if they're positive or not, because it was illegal. So this is what was a huge part of the law reform, so that if it's legal to obsess, then people are going to come forward and start testing, and that's exactly what happened. [00:14:30] So with the law reform, um, it wasn't just gay men that was protesting or lobbying. It was everybody. It was straight. It was by It was Trans. It was lesbian. It was everybody. And it made a huge difference. And obviously, the bill passed in 1986. And that's when the, um, New Zealand AIDS Foundation was founded. Um, so skipping forward a few years to the early nineties when I knew I was gay from [00:15:00] a a very young age, probably younger, to be honest and II, I just, like, wear my shoes as well. So, um, she used to get mad at me. I used to scuff the heels, but, you know, pick your feet up late. Um, So, um, I knew from a very young age and I can remember being, um it was on the TV that there was a an advert and it was the Grim Reaper that was chiselling aids into a tomb [00:15:30] stone. And it's it it said it in a really dark, you know, like you get those scary movies and they're doing a premiere and you've got that really scary dark voice. They did it in that And I can remember seeing and from I can remember seeing it. And I can remember from a very young age knowing what I was and it absolutely petrified me because I was like, How am I going to be what I am when you know when everybody is dying around me? So, um, through [00:16:00] this AIDS epidemic, it actually stopped me from being coming out as a gay man. And I don't think you can blame it, Really, to be honest, because obviously everybody's dying. Um, it was a it was a big fight, because you are. I think that I'm not going to be way the only one in this room, but I think we've all sooner or like we've all fought and felt as though that we're not really normal. And you you fight what you [00:16:30] are to fit into society, which I did. Um, so that was one of the reasons why the I stopped coming out was because of the AIDS epidemic. Um, and so moving on to that, obviously, the medication has got a lot better. And now that people are taking medication, that no one is dying anymore, so it is actually liable you can live a long, healthy life with the medication that's out there. Where? Back [00:17:00] in the day, um, people that were living with HIV and on medication were taking 16 tablets a day. And, you know, they were so toxic that you know that there's a lot of people now that are living with HIV that are having a few health problems because of the toxic medication. Um, and what it is now is completely and utterly different. Um, actually, I'm gonna get back to, uh it [00:17:30] was a family planning yesterday that somebody asked a question about prep, didn't they? And they said to come to, um, the New Zealand to to come to the aid the AIDS Foundation. I mean, if you run the AIDS Foundation to find out information where you can get it, then that that that's the right the right thing to do. But we don't prescribe it. We, um, a doctor can prescribe it. As a matter of fact, anybody, anybody here from Wellington knows evolved. So there's two doctors that evolve [00:18:00] are prescribing. And as far as I know that what's the is the is the age limit? Or is it? If you've got consent from your parents to take this medication, then they can prescribe it to you if you don't use condoms. If you do, you're fine. Carry on using condoms because it's gonna stop STIs. But it's not gonna stop HIV infections. And once that you are infected with HIV, you will be on medication for the rest of your life. It's not a death [00:18:30] sentence. Remember that it's a lifestyle change, and there's one thing that we say that when people do get tested, we do turn around Well, they say No news is good news, which I don't like at all. It's not bad news. If we ring you and say that you are positive, it's just a lifestyle change, you know, and a lot of people that are living with HIV these days are probably more healthier than people that are negative because they go and get regular check ups by the doctor. [00:19:00] And, uh, yeah, and it's they are a lot more healthier. Um, and even if you're on prep, um, can I can I hand it over to you? Because, of course, because Max here is a prep user. Has anybody met anybody that's been taking prep before? Of course you have love. Um, So, um, I'm gonna I'll hand it over to you for your experience. Really? And because [00:19:30] he's he's quite because you're quite you're very young. Aren't you? Jealous? Really. Don't get old. Um yeah. So I, I think it is quite interesting, because for me that when I started finding out about prep, this was incredibly revolutionary, that there was another way that we could actually prevent, um, HIV transmissions. Um, that which didn't involve condoms, and I think to to be able to get be there from, you know, from 1984 when the AIDS Foundation was founded to where we are now, which [00:20:00] is only about roughly about 30 years later to have a different um, prevention method that actually sits alongside, um, condoms, I think is really amazing, I think one because we've been drilled the condom message for, like, since, you know, we're growing up it. It's kind of like the, um the the message that we got in in health class in high school, and that was kind of about it that was relevant to our health and sexual health. So I think, um, yeah, having this this pill, this one [00:20:30] pill a day tool is incredible in terms of HIV prevention. So what it is is prep. Um, it kind of it stands for pre exposure prophylaxis. And essentially what it is is it's an It was an It's originally a medication that people living with HIV took to suppress the amount of, um, to suppress the viral load that they had, um, inside their bodies. And And I think one day they just thought, What if this could actually be used to prevent HIV from, um, being able to kind of get into your viral [00:21:00] system and, um, and start that? So they tested it and and they were right. It could. So that's kind of how it began. So it's It's not a new medication, um, from the sense of a treatment, but the actual from the prevention side, Um, it is so it's recently been funded by pharmac, which means it's accessible for people, Um, that are at high risk of contracting HIV. Um, and that high risk category is is really an interesting one. Um, because it's something [00:21:30] that doctors will, um, check specifically, um, it can be particularly uncomfortable. Uh, I think because the PHARMAC guidelines haven't quite caught up with where kind of our community is at especially around, um, gender and sexual identities. But in general, the PHARMAC guidelines are for, um, for gay and bisexual identifying, um, guys and also for trans people. So that's trans people in general. That's trans women. That's trans men. Um, so I think if you for self identifying people as kind of masculine, [00:22:00] um, then that's you're able to access that if you're also having, um, sex, um, with, um, people that also identify as masculine and and that, um, and identify as gay or bisexual in that sexuality space. Um, and you have to kind of, I think, and for me, why I'm on prep is because you can't. So to get on prep, you have to have had instances of, um, condom less sex in the past and kind of potential for the future. Um, and I'm going to be quite frank here. Condoms, like, aren't my [00:22:30] favourite thing in the world. They are really annoying. Um, they like And let's be real. Um, it feels better without a condom. And I feel like I can say that because it does, Um, but also because that was never I think growing up there was kind of two things. One I never knew anyone or knew of anyone that had passed away of AIDS related illnesses. So this HIV thing wasn't as much of a big deal. Um, and I think of. And second, I think with the what we're exposed to, and especially with porn, is [00:23:00] that a lot of it now is is unprotected. Um, and that that's because of, you know, the advancements that they've been able to make in terms of keeping their actors safe. But that is not quite translated. And then that's kind of the messages that we receive and think that it's totally fine. So for me, um, it was never. It's not something that I like condoms and not something that I've always used. Um, And I think in that sense, I've just been able to, you know, I haven't I've never I haven't contracted HIV um, which like at least it isn't inherently a good [00:23:30] or bad thing. It just would have been a lifestyle change. But I still put myself and my health at risk, um, kind of unknowingly at first and then it was kind of something that I kind of continue doing. So for me, being able to take prep means that I can kind of continue doing that and not using condoms, which I like. Even if I didn't have prep, I probably would have, anyway, which is not essentially a sexual health message from the AIDS Foundation. It's just a personal kind of thing, and I think to acknowledge that is totally cool. Um, because we're super sex [00:24:00] positive. We want you guys to have, like, we want everyone to have the best sex as possible. And if that doesn't include condoms, then we still want you to be safe, and we still want you to take prep. And that's why it's a fantastic option. Um, so to be able to access prep? Yeah, it's It's a conversation that you have to have with a doctor. It doesn't have to be a family GP. Um, for those in Wellington or Auckland and those sorts of centres, you can go to your sexual health doctor, Um, and they're also able to prescribe it. Um, and like, I kind of mentioned quickly yesterday there's a map that we've got on our ending HIV website that show all doctors that have [00:24:30] prescribed prep in the past and kind of know how it works and are able to have those conversations, Um, as well. So that's a really good place to start. For me, the process was super easy. Um, from doctor consultation to, um, actually getting it in my hands was about a couple of weeks. Um, and it's $5 for a three month, um, prescription. So it's super accessible and a cost sort of sense. Um, and you just take it one pill every day. Um, and you're protected from HIV, which is, um, super awesome and a massive [00:25:00] development, um, in that space as well. And I think the third I want to also touch on this with. There's also a third kind of prevention method, um, which is a breakthrough in the last kind of couple of years in terms of science, which is what we call an undetectable viral load. So for people that are living with HIV, they can take, um, they can if they take and stay on, um, medication that suppresses the viral load, the amount of HIV they've got in their bodies. Um, they can reach what's called an undetectable status. And essentially, what that means is that [00:25:30] the medication has suppressed the amount of HIV, um, in their blood count, which means they can't pass HIV on even if they're having unprotected sex. Um, and there was a study that was done. Um, and there was they basically did 36,000 instances of people, um, who were HIV positive having sex or people who are HIV negative, um, and of those, and that was without condoms or without, um, other protection. Uh, and there were zero instances of HIV being passed on. So [00:26:00] it's a super exciting space if you've ever seen U equals you, um, undetectable equals untranslated. Viral load is also a really, Um, it's a also great prevention method that we've got on hand because it means that people living with HIV, um, aren't able to pass it on if they're on sustained treatment, which is pretty awesome. And it also kind of, I think, as well it's really cool because it also kind of gets rid of that, um, stigma for people living with HIV. And they don't feel like, um, they [00:26:30] have to, you know, they're forced to, you know, wear condoms or or whatever and that sort of space and are able to, um, be healthy and stay healthy in that sort of sense as well. Yeah, for example, people who use it. It's different because the prep that [00:27:00] is the prep is is is what is used, and it's basically concentrated in, um, it's it's concentrated in the in your So that's why that they use that. But if you if you, um needle user, then so it's different, isn't it? It's not, actually, is it not? I'm learning from you. So, um, the pharmac guide So prep is so the When I talk about prep being available, I'm talking about in a pharmac sense, So pharmac [00:27:30] that they, um pharmac is the the pharmaceutical body. So when you go to a A, you get a pharmacy and you get a $5 prescription that's through a pharmac subsidy. So it's our wonderful public health system in a, um so the pharmac guidelines to be able to access it. Um, if so, one of the criteria, like one of the criteria, is either you've had instances of, um, with anal sex in the last three months, you've either had or you've had, um, other, um, erectile, um, sexual transmitted infections [00:28:00] like gonorrhoea. And the other one is or you use methamphetamine as well. So, um, so for those for that as well, prep is, um, available because it still prevents HIV in that instance. But in in a general sense, if if your doctor doesn't feel like you meet the pharmac funding criteria or you don't meet the pharmac funding criteria and you want to try it out, um, you the doctor is still able to provide a prescription. Um, but they just can't. They're not able to then give [00:28:30] you access to the the subsidised, um, prep, but basically through breakthroughs and kind of other, um pharmacies and funding for that sort of stuff. You're still able to import, um, prep from what's called the Green Cross Pharmacy based over in the UK. Um, and they can send you a prescription for prep, and it's roughly about it's a little bit more expensive. It's $65 for a three month supply of 65 New Zealand dollars. Um, so for those that aren't eligible, that's also a really great option as well. But, [00:29:00] um, to answer your question, yes. Um, but it's again. It's a It's a conversation that you have to have with your doctor around That, too. Um, I, I will I. I will say this lot. That prep is becoming very, very popular. If you're on the everybody, we all go on the date and apps so much now because I'm in my head sometimes. No. Um, So, um, there's more and more people that have been coming on prep, So, I, I I'll give you a little [00:29:30] example here. So when I went to the states, um, on the way back home, um, you know, on my holidays, I thought, Oh, I'll go on grinder. I'm on my holidays. I'm entitled you know. So So I went on, I went on grinder and, um uh, you know, all chatting away. And, uh, I had a debate with a couple of people that were really I got stigmatised for being a condom user. I couldn't believe it. And it happened [00:30:00] on the way back in Vancouver as well. I was like, What is going on here? It was so pro prep over there that they were just using prep and nothing else. And what scares me here is it's gonna happen the same If someone says that they're on prep, that's all good. You take your That's the way that you treat your sexual health if you don't want. Don't be pressurised into having unprotected sex because they say you don't need to wear anything because we're on prep. You know, you need to feel [00:30:30] comfortable. Never feel as though you have to do something that you never that that's not the case. So it's either you've got to trust that person or not. So at the end of the day, just use condoms. If you're you've got to feel comfortable, do never feel pressurised to take it to stop taking anything don't Don't feel pressurised. No, I was all about taking pills down. Not taking anything. Dirty ticket. Honestly, Yes. Um so [00:31:00] you can still Yeah, totally. Now there is a There is a resistant gonorrhoea. It's not really hit the borders of New Zealand yet, but it it's happening. It's absolutely happening sooner or later, things mutate. HIV is a mutation. So II, I look at it like this. So the bird flu and the swine flu, right? So the bird flu, it's it's a it comes from birds [00:31:30] and it mutated to affect humans. So that's the same as what HIV did back in. Does anybody know where our HIV started? Yes. And that's how it started from year. We don't know when Years and years ago. And it was in the Congo where there was actually eating Earth primates. And obviously there wasn't, you know, that they wasn't cooking them properly, or, um and that's how it started. So it's a mutation and sooner. I mean, maybe in 100 years or whatever it's it will mutate, you know? And prep is [00:32:00] pretty new. The medication for HIV is pretty new. Who knows if that's gonna mutate? No, one knows. So at the end of the day, you can't go wrong with condoms. I'm a condom user. I have been since I've been, uh, since I've been very, very young. So that's what I mean. It's a sexual preference. I'm not gonna judge you because, you know you like to use Prep and he's not going to judge me, and that's the way it should be. It's respecting everybody's choice, you know? So so, yeah, it's all about, you know, just just respect that person's choice and [00:32:30] don't get into a big debate like I did. I was like, It's ruining my holiday. I couldn't believe this actual debate, And I was, you know, it was It was like it was like a work issue. Like I'm on holidays. I talk about it, but I couldn't believe it. And, um, New Zealand has been slow getting on prep. Don't get me wrong. Um, but we have been a little bit wary about it. And, uh, even in, um, England, the statistics that have come back that well, surely the sti I rates will be going up, but actually [00:33:00] in a couple of years, because you have to go to the doctors every three months to get checked out. So you have to get your kidneys check, check kidneys, your bloods and STI. It's maintaining that sexual health and guys particularly many of offsets with them. Not gay guys, many of offsets with men and by guys the worst to actually go to the doctors. Men in general. Does your dad go to the doctors or is he a staunch man and goes, No, I'm all right. I'll just follow on, You know, [00:33:30] like that Exactly. It is. It's like that, and and and to get to get checked every three months, and it really levelled out surprisingly so. But it is. It works. It's stopping HIV transmission, but it's not stopping sti IS. So I think that's our message is that we want you should feel empowered to take control of your own sexual health. How I choose to do that through prep through not getting HIV and Lee chooses to do that condoms to not get HIV um, and I. I think there's also [00:34:00] a real a real portion, and I've been, um, there's AAA little thing that's starting to emerge. It's about prep shaming, Um, and it's It's basically slut shaming for like oh, well, you prep. So you must be a slut and it's like, Well, not necessarily actually, um, but and it's one of those things that's emerging, So I think it's also not making It's just how I. I just want to take this pill daily so that if you know, for for whatever reason, that I then end up, you know, having sex with someone, then I'm protected from HIV no matter what. And if that person [00:34:30] chooses to use a condom, then, um, we use a condom, and that's great. Um, if you know, if someone's got an undetectable viral load and and you still want to use a condom, that's also fine. If there's prep and UVL like, I think there's now a multi, a multitude of ways that you can stay safe and it's up to. It's up to you to take control of your sexual health and, um and there's no yeah, I think also what they said is you have to go to the doctor every three months now and get a full health check up and and bloods and sort of stuff and and that makes me do that every three months [00:35:00] without fail or I don't get my, um, repeat prescription. So there are kind of there are definite. Even though prep doesn't protect me from other STIs. It does make me get tested every three months. Um, and still pretty cautious about that sort of stuff. So, yeah, does anyone ask any questions? Any questions, any personal questions? I don't care. You can ask what you like. I'll tell you, whatever you want up are not [00:35:30] resting. I'll just say that to hint, because I'm not the one that's going to be. I'll have to ask him. Believe me, he's like Queen Latifah. Isn't he even know what Queen Latifah is? Latifa. Sorry who? One day, one day it will happen. It will happen. I just wanted to say, if you [00:36:00] want, I was going to show some videos as well, so I might put together a little, do with some links to some interesting stuff about some cool people, and I'll post it on the page. I will do that. So that's that's what the people you've just been talking about, isn't it? Some other people as well from around the world and if you've got any other questions for me, I'm really open talking about my experience with prep. So if you want to talk to me about it, ask me anything. Um you want to know? And, [00:36:30] um, i'll be able to tell you, so I'll be hanging around for today and tomorrow, so feel free to just come up as well. Any questions? Yeah, She fell, of course, for our present.

IRN: 1231
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/shift_2018_self_care_tactics_for_mental_health.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004535
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089829
TITLE: Self care tactics for mental health - Shift hui (2018)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alex Ker; Aliyah Winter; Jarrod Klooster; Kate Aschoff; Richard Fray; Theta Likins
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC); Alex Ker; Aliyah Winter; Buddhism; InsideOUT Kōaro; Jarrod Klooster; John Kirwan; Kate Aschoff; National Certificate of Educational Achievement (NCEA); Porirua; Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD); Richard Fray; Shift hui; Shift hui (2018); Te Horouta Marae; Theta Likins; Youth; addiction; anxiety; back pain; befriending yourself; bike ride; biphobia; boundaries; bravery; budget; bullying; burnout; capitalism; chronic pain; colonialism; community; compassion; consent; cooking; dancing; depression; diary; dissociation; dysphoria; eating; empathy; employment; family; feelings; friends; happiness; headaches; healing; health; health system; heteronormativity; hui; inner parent; inner voice; kindness; laughter; love; love yourself; mania; meditation; mental health; movies; music; oppression; organised; organising; pain; parents; patriarchal system; persistence; physical pain; pronouns; relationships; resilience; routine; secondary school; self awareness; self care; self defence; self respect; self-acceptance; self-critical; sleep; socialise; socialism; structure; substance abuse; suicide; suicide prevention; time; tough love; transphobia; treat; video games; volunteer; walking; water; wellness; youth
DATE: 20 April 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Te Horouta Marae, Whitford Brown Avenue, Papakōwhai, Porirua
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Right. Hi, everyone. Uh, my name is Alex. Um, I'm gonna be facilitating this panel discussion on, um, tactics for self care and mental health. Um, and as we know, this is, um, the theme of this is wellness. So this is, um, really, hopefully helpful. Be helpful for all of you, Um, to hear a little bit about what our panellists have to say. Um, on this topic, um, as it's it's a pretty big reality that a lot of people [00:00:30] in our community, um, face mental health issues. Um And so and it's not always easy to, um know how to take care of ourselves and our bodies and our minds. It's easy to forget that we have bodies sometimes, Um, it's easy to neglect our mental health. But on the other hand, um, there are some really helpful things and practical things that we can, um, teach ourselves and learn and share within our community about [00:01:00] what? What we do find helpful in those times of crises or when we're feeling stressed or anxious or really low. Um, so I thought we'd just start off by introducing ourselves. Um, if you want to share a little bit about your your journey. Feel free to do so, um, maybe something about self-care what self-care means to you. Um, and I just wanna acknowledge that we're all, like, at very different stages within our experiences of mental health and and [00:01:30] we all we all feel different things at different points, and things come and go. So just want to acknowledge that, um, yeah. So, um, my name is, um I don't know what else we say. Health history. Um, I go by all day. Um, and I was diagnosed with depression and a few other things, like, five years ago. Yeah. Um, my name is Kate. I use they then pronounce, um [00:02:00] and saying Kara, plus anxiety disassociation, Um, and a bit of mania. Fun. I'm Rick. Richard. He pronouns, uh, I've had moderate to chronic back pain and headaches since I was about 11, 12 years old, and so self care for mentally is very important to me because I already have a lot of physical pain going on. So it's just about, man, you know? So I'm very focused on managing selfcare because of keeping mental [00:02:30] emotional. Well, because my physicals aren't well most of the time everyone. My name is the I use the pronouns. Um, just a snippet of my approach to mental health. Um, I do live with a chronic pain from an injury, um, over a decade ago and one of the ways that I have, um, worked with that physical pain and also mental pain. Um, living in the patriarchy is, uh, through [00:03:00] meditation, so I'll probably talk a bit about that. Hi, guys. Um, I'm Jay. I use their them pronouns. Um, I haven't officially been diagnosed with anything, but I've, um, really struggled with my mental health in general, Um, with, like, depressive feelings and anxious feelings. Um, since I was probably 13 or 14. Um, yeah, and I've sort of had a very, like, up and down journey with it and got some cool tips to help [00:03:30] you cope. Hi, I'm Jared. Um, hear him pronounce. Um, for me, it would probably just be kind of like, um, friendships ending and like relationships ending, but then also, like restarting from that as well and kind of like self-care around. That is just I don't know, just doing what it is for you to be happy. And that's kind of what I'll probably be doing. Awesome. Thank you, everyone. Um, so [00:04:00] I thought that we could, um just each of us we could talk about something that we find really helpful for our, um, mental health and self care. So maybe talking about one or two specific things that you have found really helpful, um, to you and then explain. Yeah, How that's benefited you and your mental health. Anyone can start. We don't have to go in a particular order. Well, I find selfcare. The definite definition of the word is is really being [00:04:30] self-aware and acting accordingly, which is you can say. Oh, crap. I only got four hours sleep last night. OK, but what are you gonna do about it? So self-care is then going, I'm gonna make sure I get an early night sleep tonight and try and catch up. So that's like number one, understand? The word is is really, you know, acknowledge what might be wrong and just also see how you can try and fix it. So it it it I don't know, part of like being proactive, proactive, because that also feels good as well. You can wake [00:05:00] up the next morning and go, Yeah, II. I did try and get more sleep tonight, and it's sometimes hard to do when you're in that state of when you are feeling down. It's hard to pick yourself up in those situations, but maybe having some reminder external reminder that that's important. Yeah, um, I find that one of the things that I've recently realised is really important in terms of self-care and mental health, but also being in a community of young people but also of queer people [00:05:30] where, um, like lots of different, complicated, simultaneous mental health issues exist at once in one person but in multiple people as well. And so when you have that many people, um, potentially struggling all at once, it can become really important to have boundaries because, like, I kind of think of it as like, you can't bail out a sinking ship with the bucket filled with holes. And sometimes that's what it can feel like when you and the majority of your friends are depressed or anxious or suicidal, and it's really overwhelming and [00:06:00] you're trying to pick someone else up while you're not really that OK yourself. And so I think it can make it really important that you kind of are laying out people where your energy is at where your capacity is at and what your limits are in terms of. Like if, like, you're kind of like OK, I'm out of my depth on this one and I think you need to, like, find out someone else or someone with more experience or more expertise to take this on because it's too much for me, um, and that it's OK [00:06:30] to do that, even if it is your friends and like, you want to help them. But also there's a limit to what you can give or what you can muster up as well as like, but like, you're maybe not the yeah, in the best position to be doing it, Um, and so it was like It's definitely like a help your friends thing. But it's also like if helping your friends is actually getting you to a point of absolute burnout, then that's it's not safe either. So and the same on the other side. Don't [00:07:00] self care isn't dumping all your problems onto your friends? It's asking, Hey, can I dump my problems onto You are of the I'm self caring. You're self caring self-care together, OK? Did you want to? Well, yeah. I mean, I was gonna pretty much say really similar to Kara about kind of learning. Something I've been thinking about a lot lately is kind of saying no when people come to you asking for help because they think especially at this in queer communities and friendships like, we lean on [00:07:30] each other a lot with some quite heavy stuff. And sometimes it's kind of best to say, Hey, like, I totally hear what you're feeling right now, and I sympathise, and I empathise, but, like, I'm not in a space right now where I can help you with this. Um, how about you talk to this person or how about you, da da da like, and I'll check in with you in the morning and it's just kind of separating yourself like just kind of keeping yourself safe and supporting others. And I think I mean, I think that goes both ways as well. Like if [00:08:00] you're asking someone for support, like checking in like Is this like are you Cove? If I have a little, we have to talk about this thing like is now an OK time Pretty much what you were saying. Yeah, yeah, To piggyback off what you're saying. You know, consent, I think is often looked at in a very, uh, almost like binary way. Is it like, is it a, You know, can can this certain thing happen in this certain context? Often it's thought about in terms of sex and sexuality. [00:08:30] But consent is applicable in every aspect of every relationship, from my perspective. And when it comes to mental health, when I, um, do make the choice to check in with the people around me Or, you know, if I'm able to say, Hey, friend, you know, are you available to talk to me about this thing? Um, it gives them context to be able to honour themselves and to honour our relationship. Um, I think one of the edges of what we're skirting around right now is that if I love you, then I'm gonna give [00:09:00] everything and be available constantly, and that a relationship is based on these absolutes of I'm constantly available for to meet all of your needs. And that's just not sustainable. I've found at all. Um, the other thing that I would add to self care in terms of like, lifelong goals, um is the act and the practise of befriending oneself. And that is something that, uh, you know, because [00:09:30] we're all changing beings and because the world is constantly putting things in our way that bring up discomfort. Um, there is there's no arrival of. I've fully befriended my myself myself. I've fully done the work as I've experienced it. Um, but it's the act of of building that into one's day, the act of of making that a part of one's life, where I'm gonna bring in that self reflection I'm gonna bring. I'm gonna nurture my self awareness so that I can when hopefully in a positive relationship, someone [00:10:00] asks me if I'm available, I can I can actually love them and honour that relationship by saying I can't because I love you and I love myself. And this is what this this is how to nurture this relationship. This is how to make it sustainable. Um, yeah, kind of like adding on to that as well as kind of finding that equal balance between, like, the people you meet as well. So yes, you can be, like, down sometimes. And yes, other people can be dumb, but like, yeah, just kind of finding that balance between you two and just kind of making it seem [00:10:30] like it will work in order to be happy as well. Yeah. Um, yeah. It's a really good point. Um, so much to work with. Um, yeah. I think like, as others have said, being nice to yourself is really, really important. Um, even if like, you just start saying nice things about yourself in your head that you don't believe, um, you you would be really surprised how much of a difference that makes. So instead of like, if you make a mistake thinking, Oh, God, I'm such like I'm such an idiot. Like I've ruined everything [00:11:00] you know, like, very quickly. You can spiral down that rabbit hole sometimes. If you see that, like start to happen, you can be like no, actually like no, Like, I'm not. I'm gonna try and think a nice thing about myself, even if you don't believe it over time, um, you start thinking in a more kind way about yourself. Um and also like we just one thing that I find really helpful in, like, my own personal self care is, um, being hyper always, um, which I know, like it takes [00:11:30] a while to be able to get to that stage where you can, like, sort of plan things in advance. Um, but for me, like in little sets, what that looks like is making checklists and breaking down big, like difficult tasks into lots of small, manageable ones and sort of like, maybe being like, OK, today I'm gonna do this small thing and feel a sense of accomplishment in doing that because even that might feel like a lot on this day, Um, or setting aside some time to do like, uh, an hour a day to do, like, admin and reply to all those [00:12:00] emails I don't want to, but need to to be a student and a volunteer and stuff. Um, yeah, Or it might be like having a diary. And just like writing down when you've got commitments so that you don't feel taken by surprise when they actually arrive. Um, just little little things to make your life a bit easier and a bit more manageable in the long run. Um, I find it really helpful. I think an important one is is love yourself. But tough love is always a little helpful, too, like [00:12:30] you might not really want to eat those vegetables. But you know they're good for you, right? Like it's just a basic example, but it's the same of you might feel depressed or something. And you you stay inside a lot, and that's fine to do for, say, a little while to kind of help recoup yourself. But there is a point where maybe it's a good idea just to see what, just to see one friend just say hi or or or just nag them to come over and say hi to you. But you know, and and and it's totally fine to just tiptoe your way out back into social life. But it's important to get that tough love [00:13:00] of Just just do it. Just go do it. Go do it. You need it. You need to say hi to someone. You need a good laugh, have some jokes with some friends. You know, it's tough. Love is important as as as important as love, I Yeah, there's something really, um, poignant about what you just brought up Richard. A few of us were chatting over lunch about the importance of like, you folks know what I thought? What I mean when I mentioned your your inner voice, like or that you maybe hear an inner voice that there's There's there's something inside of [00:13:30] I'll speak for myself. Um, I have you know, uh, let's see, where do I wanna start with this? First of all, um, like patriarchy and colonialism have, I think disenfranchised and put a lot of pressure around, uh, neurodiversity in the room. So for those of you that, like, do hear multiple voices and and that, like, have I that identify with that, um, I wanna make sure that what I say is not at all on the edges of shaming you. Only that if, as in in [00:14:00] my personal growth in life, the more that I have listened to myself. The more time that I have spent self reflecting, the more that I can hear. Like you might think of them like the little the devil on your shoulder versus the angel. Like who you're gonna listen to, the more that I look like Look into those and and do the personal work of, um, being on a mental health journey. The more that I realise, there's actually quite a few. There's there's a multiplicity of attitudes and perspectives that if I listen in, I can hear and something that was brought up over at the table is the the nurturing and loving inner [00:14:30] parent parent. And, you know, it's like, you know, tough love is black and white. Um, could be like, Oh, you have to do this and you have to do that But sometimes an an inner parent could be like This is really important that you do this and I'm going to sort of hold space for for that process. Um, I know for myself a big part of my mental health journey was grappling with my mother's substance abuse journey and that being the child of an addict household brought a lot of barriers [00:15:00] and and things to work with, uh, in in growing up and growing into myself and and developing that So one of the biggest parts of my mental health journey and recovery is developing an inner loving parent that can say what you know, not just like you have to do this this way, but someone that can can actually nurture myself, you know, and and not having a perfect parent that met all of my needs throughout my entire life. Like I doubt many people in the world get, um, to be able to have that voice, be a part of the the sort [00:15:30] of symphony that's happening inside me and to and to nurture that voice and to to, you know, offer myself tools, um, to to work with that. It's been a very healing experience. And if any of you have questions about that, I can talk to you more after the panel. Hm? So if it's a if it's a school, holidays and your parent voice is going, Oh, go to bed, get a good night's sleep, you go. No, I don't need to. That's fine, you know generally. But if it's if it's a school night, you know, let that inner parents say Go to go to bed early. You've got school tomorrow, OK, fair. Fine, fine. I'll do it. [00:16:00] So what I'm hearing is that self-care it. It is hard work, and it's probably one of the hardest things that we do because I don't. It's why. Why is it that we're so its so much? Yeah, it involves so much self criticism. It does, but it's that fine balance you need to give yourself room and space, and you need to be easy and kind on yourself. Show that self compassion that we always talk about. But at the same time, it does involve a little bit of even if you're not feeling like doing [00:16:30] something kind to yourself, even if you're not believing it, you just sometimes have to just drop the ball and and do it anyway. And you'll more than likely feel better afterwards. So just maybe even keeping that thought in the back of your head that I if I don't want to do it, as long as I know that I I know I'll feel better afterwards. If you can see the the Long-term end goal of of feeling better afterwards, you go. Oh yeah, I did it. Who finally got that out? Yeah, another, another choice shouldn't [00:17:00] feel like a chore, but sometimes it does. Yeah, certainly. I mean, it's it's maintenance, it is it. It's a chore. It's a maintenance you have to do. You gotta brush your teeth. You got to wipe your butt. You gotta make sure your head is clean. It's maintenance. It's supposed to be boring and and not fun to do. But it is still important. It is. OK, Um, yeah. I just wanted to comment on what you were saying about, like, self criticism, and I think, like because I'm kind of all about, like, positive and negative words and associations and I think sometimes, like rather than thinking [00:17:30] about self criticism, like kind of thinking about it as self reflection. So rather than like yeah, rather than like, you're critiquing the But I don't know the stuff you're feeling or thinking or doing. It's kind of like actually reflecting on it. So it's like we're being non judgmental, and we're just kind of assessing it for what it is and thinking like, Why do I feel this like, Is that actually a real thing? I'm feeling like, Why do I think? And like, kind of just like go like looking at things rather than like [00:18:00] but yeah, I. I kind of like feel it as like a looking out rather than like crushing in kind of thing. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's a good perspective. Looking at it, Um, just touching back on more like, um, positive practical things that we like to do. Um, like they do meditation. Um, are there other sort of tangible things that we can do? I say laughing with friends, laughing with friends, laughing with friends. It's always a good I. I find that one that helps me the most. It doesn't matter how sore my back [00:18:30] is that day. If my friend makes me it says it says a bad pun or something, It's great. It makes me feel a lot better. Yeah, I think there's something to be said for structure and routine. Um, I know for me and the times where I've had the the best mental health or the longest streaks of feeling positive, Um, it's because I've built in structure to my days and have a have a way that, um, you know, I'm able to make sure that I'm getting enough sleep and that I'm eating three square meals and that I'm attending to my life in ways that are that [00:19:00] it's relevant and I find that like it can be good to have sort of a sort of imagined routine or to do list, or like whatever, like a plan in place so that if you and it can be a really loose plan like I, I don't use that term very, um, specifically. But like if you're starting to sort of downward spiral or have burnout or for me, if I have, like, um, post traumatic stress, um, flare up, then I kind of need to take the time to actually acknowledge that this is a hard time and that maybe [00:19:30] when normally if I'm not struggling with this sort of thing, I will be doing more than just the basics. But like sometimes I I find that it's important to be like OK, well, this week's been really hard, and I'm just gonna acknowledge that, so this week I'm probably gonna be a bit of a recluse. I'm gonna do my basics. I might not shower as much, and then once I've worked through that, I'm gonna like, have more energy, be able to kind of open up what I'm able to do. But like I like having that routine of, like, what do I do when I'm really struggling What's the sort of bare minimum stuff that I can [00:20:00] do That'll get me through? And maybe I'm not having the best time, but I'm I'm acknowledging that it's hard and I'm gonna, like, spend that week just like surviving it. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Kind of with that as well, Like acknowledging what you're, like, feeling like I for myself. Like I know. Like you guys like to plan things. Um, but on the other side, Like going outdoors and just being like away from everything and just doing yourself like, I love going for walks by myself [00:20:30] or just maybe watching a movie by myself. Um, just getting away from everything and just focusing on yourself is kind of the best thing you could do as well. Yeah. Yeah. And like, um, going off of that as well. Like, um, you have to live with yourself forever. So why, that wasn't so, um so like, you might as well like, like, be nice to yourself and do nice things for yourself. Like by [00:21:00] yourself, um, for example, over like, um, summer. I was working full time and was in a different city and missing my family and missing my partner and my friends, Um, and I didn't really have a lot of time to myself. Um, so one day, I decided on a Friday to be like I'm working from home, um, and just decided to, like, do a really nice day of things that I enjoyed. So I, like, went on a big long bike ride. Um, that was like an hour and a half and then came [00:21:30] back and had a nap in the sun, had a shower, took myself out to a fancy lunch and got all up just to, like, hang out in a restaurant alone and eat oysters and drink wine. Um, and then I went home and, like, baked and cooked dinner for the people I was living with, and that was like, honestly, such a nice and beautiful day. And I had such a good time just hanging out by myself. Um, and usually, like, I think a lot of people wouldn't really think of doing things like that for themselves, like just enjoying time in your own company and like, doing things that you enjoy that [00:22:00] you might not otherwise do. Um, and I think like in terms of short term mental health like that's quite valuable as well as just, like, treat yourself. Yeah, but not not in an excessive way. Treat is a treat because it treats you need to have money for rent. So I said, yeah, like routine. Um, like, as part of your routine, Just eating healthy food and getting good nights sleep. Throw into your routine as well, Like socialising with friends on the weekend and just or [00:22:30] even just scheduling time for yourself. But, yeah, the routines routines are a good one. One other thing, too, Um, about the process of I love what you shared about taking yourself out for treats is, um you know, when I when I have those thoughts that creep up in my head there's a couple of things that I do the ones that are that are just like, Oh, I can't think this sometimes I will literally just sing them away, be like la la la, la la No, no. Um, But one of the reasons that that I I do that and that I've developed that practise is because, um, you know, I really [00:23:00] want to be a good friend to myself. and and like it was said here is, uh, even though the self the ego right is is growing and adapting and changing all the time. Um, I really do wanna do right by my life force and by the opportunity that I have here, like being a human being in this world alive right now. Um and that means, you know, compassion in from my Buddhist perspective, you know, compassion isn't, uh all beings are entitled to compassion. And that does include myself And, um, you know, when when those [00:23:30] thoughts come up, it's like, Would I say this to a friend of mine? Would would I say, would I look at them in the face and say the things that I think to myself in my dark hours like No way. And if I can treat myself like I caught myself just the other day, I'm like, Wow, I am really a person who is trying to learn right now, you know, it can really be like with that much kind of practise to switch it and be like I, you know, to have again that compassion and rootedness like I am doing a hard thing. Good job me. Keep going. I love you. Right. [00:24:00] To have that be the central narrative of my life is like it takes reat, and you can do it totally. And it is not a selfish thing to do. Right. But you're self first. True. Yeah, but being selfish is more taking advantage of others for your own gain. Yeah, that's that's selfish. Self care is taking advantage of yourself for your own. Um, a lot of a lot [00:24:30] of the time we hear the word resilience come up in in self-care and getting through getting through life in general. Um, I was wondering whether you think that the the term, like, the concept of resilience or like and getting, like, you know, picking yourself back up. Um, if you fall fall over whether you think that's a helpful thing, Um, whether you think there are other ways that we can sort of think about self-care and [00:25:00] and looking after ourselves in in times of in times of, um, when we're not feeling great. Yeah. Yeah. Um, well, we were talking about this this morning. Um, because my high school was very, like, all about emotional resilience and like getting through the hard times to pass N CE A because I thought that was the focus. And like I think it it's really like until right now. I didn't actually, like, swap it around in my head. But this morning I was saying to Alex like, [00:25:30] Oh, you know, I don't really like the idea of resilience. It's like, you know, pushing your feelings to the side blah, blah, blah. But I was just thinking now that actually like the times where I let myself be sick and I myself have symptoms and I let myself feel what I'm actually feeling. I think that is a form of resilience because like that's me being resilient against the illness is actually giving myself time to be ill and have, like, you know, like not push it down because by pushing it down, [00:26:00] it's It's not actually letting it have space to breathe, and you kind of need that to be able to work for yourself. Resilience can certainly be a necessary component. Sometimes, like if you're supporting a family, if you might need to be resilient and just get through that work week like it sometimes you know there are extreme situations, but otherwise, in terms of like mental health in terms of mental health, generally, [00:26:30] um, just talk to somebody. I think the word resilience to me doesn't necessarily mean being like your ability to cope in the moment. I think, um, the like What resilience means is being a is like, recognising that you're having a hard time. Like Kate was saying, Um and like giving yourself time to, like, experience that and like, get better slowly. And that might mean, like taking time off of school or like just deciding that you're [00:27:00] not gonna reply to those emails right now or like just doing any number of things. And I think, um, I think it's not like because some, some people might think that like, Oh, it's how fast you can recover from this thing. But I don't think it's necessarily that. I think it's just the process, um, of recovering, and that's like looks different for everyone and it takes different amounts of time. Um, yeah, and I think I. I definitely think like it's an important component of self care, but not in the way that a lot of people [00:27:30] think, because I could I could have been resilient and and put up with the boys in my school. But I said I wanted to kick them in the nuts, so I kept them in the nuts. Me self defence. Yeah. So sometimes you can go. No, I'm not gonna put up with that for me. Like resilience. Kind of is, um yeah, it is like trying to get back up on your feet, But like, for me, when I go through things like, it's not gonna take overnight to do things like so I just focus on myself like, even [00:28:00] if you have to shout out your friends for quite a while but, like, just kind of, Yeah, allow yourself to get back up at your own pace. Don't like rush it. There's nobody telling you to get over things. You just gotta kinda go at your own pace and then yeah, and I think there's strength in, like, confronting how you're feeling And, like, not in, like, a negative way, but like in recognising how you're feeling and putting the tiger on the table and having a yell at it, Um, [00:28:30] yeah, and just like recognising like this is how I feel and this is like what it's gonna take for me to like, not feel like this, Um, anymore. I feel a bit better. Yeah, it's acknowledging. I don't feel that great and then going, I'll watch a movie, they'll they'll cheer me up. I'll watch a comedy. It's It's acting as well as acknowledging, which is, I think, the important part. I feel like sometimes the way that I've heard resilience we talked about in [00:29:00] the sort of mainstream mental health kind of all that's around with John and his ads and stuff, where it sort of feels like resilience is being treated as if it's a substitute for systems that are oppressing people not actually being changed. And like I think we will probably on the same page that like like he and patriarchy and transphobia and all those sorts of things shouldn't exist. They shouldn't be institutionalised into our mental health care system and our health care system. [00:29:30] And so, like the idea that minorities or whatever word you wanna use should take it upon themselves to become so strong that they can deal with this amount of like degradation and exclusion at an institutional, national and global level is just like ridiculous and like, really unfair to like. Put that on to the people who are being oppressed by their systems to like, Oh, you can just advocate for yourself when your doctor is being transphobic or whatever and it's just like they shouldn't be doing that. And so I feel like [00:30:00] it's like separate from this idea that you should take it all on board yourself and like, cope with the conditions. I think it is important that you can kind of have this ability to work through things and to persist and to survive. Um, but I don't think you should have to constantly be the one, like as an individual, but as a community taking on board this crap that's dealt to you sort of thing. So I guess it's like I kind of hate [00:30:30] that word in the way that it's used with that idea behind it, that this is your burden and society is not going to change for you. And I think that those systems should change. Um, I got a deluge of of custom, of of co-workers all coming up to me. Oh, you're so brave. You're so brave. When I came out of work and I. I don't like being called brave because I shouldn't have to be brave, right? Like in this this situation that's not should be a scary thing to [00:31:00] II. I don't like being called brave, but all my my mom and her friends all call me brave. I'm like, No, no, you're not. Yeah, they're all looking at it from a perspective. We're looking at it from the queer perspective. Like Why can we just be not just, like with resilience of coping with, like transphobia or biphobia and stuff, but also this idea that resilience is like, if you're resilient, then you can get back to work, or then you can be in full time employment And, like, I just don't think that that's for everyone or for anyone like, [00:31:30] um, like I don't think it is. It is our economic system, like capitalism is a mess. I know. Um, like, I don't think the goal like the way AC C works where they're trying to push people off of their supported payments or whatever instead of being like, Well, maybe this person needs to not work like maybe that should be what's considered, and some people with mental illnesses and chronic pain on, like, I don't think the bar of success is that they manage to, like, put up with all the suffering so that they [00:32:00] can get into employment. Like, I think it's quite coercive sometimes. Like, you'll tough it out. And I don't think people should have to like, yeah, yeah. Or at least just better navigating like more appropriate jobs. Yeah. If if someone's got a leg injury, well, you can give them a disc job. You know, like, I'm sure there should be. There could be a way around that. Mm. I'm not sure if I should. I mean, like, contributing to society. I mean, [00:32:30] yeah, I think contributing to society isn't interesting. Even volunteer work and stuff like that. Yeah, it can be meaningful. I think that a lot of people and I guess I'm speaking for mostly myself. But the way that work and certain education systems are structured is working against you. So, um, stuff like sitting exams or, um, making meetings or doing projects or, like, these things actually don't [00:33:00] work for the individual. They work for the, um I guess the system, whatever system it is and I think I think work is like I mean, yes, it's a way to move society forward. But, like with hashtag socialism, um, you know, just Yeah, I don't know. It just kind of feeds into that whole of it. Like you are a worker. That is your purpose. Like you exist, exist to work and contribute to society rather than, like, contribute to your own well-being. I think it's just like an interesting [00:33:30] thing to kind of have to think about. Yeah. Um OK, great. Um so let's just wrap up. I did want to leave some time, just in case anyone else wanted to contribute some of their, um, tactics for mental health and looking after themselves, if you want to share anything or if you also have any questions, so yeah, um, South car on a budget and not just like a money budget, but also, like a time budget of like, if your life is really busy. [00:34:00] Me too. We've got a little bit of spare time. And what's your advice on something that's not expensive that you can do to trick yourself? You know, um, take really long bathroom breaks at work, like shove your book down your pants. Talk to your mum like do it on your boss's time. They ask me, I think also just sleep. [00:34:30] I think sleep is such an underrated thing. Like Like I find my like. I definitely know for myself, like my depression and anxiety are so much lower when I've had, like, a solid eight or nine hours sleep. And I think that is something we kind of deprive ourselves of quite a bit and definitely makes a big difference. Lack of sleep can can prevent the the, um HTP, the five HD chemical producing in your brain, which is the happiness chemical. So getting good sleep is very helpful towards depression, [00:35:00] I say hard to do when you're depressed, So it's a bit of a paradise. Sorry about that. Um, I say have a dance. Any chance you get, turn on your favourite jams and just shake it out. That's what I That's my go to shake it and you do it. So, um, we'll just go to, um I just wanted to say, as someone who has struggled with a cohort of lots of different things that came on time now, um, and is still kind of [00:35:30] voice heard that it's really important to remember that when you're doing stuff, you're not so good. That's also OK and that we often get stuck in this kind of really Oh, God, I've got to get as much sleep. And actually, sometimes you've gotta be a better friend yourself here and that sort of, you know, like and I think the problem, that is, sometimes we don't do it quite right for a day so stuck [00:36:00] on you. I know you feel like shit. You know, Excuse my language. It's all your fault that if you do a bad job or you have a really cracked day or week, whatever fine. You know, that's cool. We survived it. And all the time I get you to keep trying. So I just wanted to That's why yeah, yeah, I One thing that I've been doing for I sat down originally [00:36:30] feel better. And then I I wrote it on a spreadsheet. Um, so it's kind of like a to do list, but not a to do list. It sort of just like me keeping track of what? You know, my how I felt, um, whether I did, whether I dance or listen to music or messaged a friend or went outside or well, you know, and you're unable [00:37:00] one you like to do Another one that I have on here is at least 2000 video games. It wasn't like, um and it's not so much about, like, forcing myself into it. Although I keep in the point, really love. So, like, if I listen to it for half time, that counts. If I get on my friend for a minute, that counts. Um, but sometimes it's really just start it, and then you're like, no here, So I might as well [00:37:30] just keep Oh, actually got better. Um, but then I go, Hey, I'm really noticing that, you know, I was a piece of I had They really didn't do any of those things. It was pretty bad. So it's kind of like, you know, something about that in that relationship, this is, you know, really see what it is without pressure without being pressure. [00:38:00] Yeah, I can say that. Uh, well, yeah, one thing like that that really works for me is is kind of being aware of the environment in in a grateful sense, like we have running water. That is so cool, right? Yeah. And and I get that is that is what that is. Generally, my go to on my Depression days is I I'll go grab a glass of water specifically to go. This is awesome. And and then and then I'll go to the bathroom and I'll go. This [00:38:30] is awesome. Just the fact that we have indoor plumbing and our and our hygiene. It's just that is awesome. And that's just that's that can get me through a Depression day. Just the mere concept of indoor plumbing. Just get really excited about toilets. Toilets are great for hygiene. Um, we have quite a few hands up. I'm just, um, aware of the time. How many? Two more. OK, the high. Um, so we done [00:39:00] things that I worked on with my in terms of like, it's hard to see, like, what's real and what isn't and what's like rational thinking. So the tool that she gave me, which had been the first time you was, um when you first start, you wrote it down. Um, but usually like evidence for and against. So for example, um, if [00:39:30] I go to a party that, you know, People think that I'm weird. Um, I'll get out the people and do evidence for and against. And I I'll find that, you know, the evidence against is, you know, vastly way before. Um, it's just nice to see it work in a tangible way. Getting things on a piece of paper. Um, last one. Yeah. OK. Um Well, personally, with the divorce thing, I treat myself like I'm someone [00:40:00] else. I don't compare myself to other people. I don't go like, Oh, Stella wouldn't still lie to myself. Um, I kind of I think, um, OK, if I were someone else, how would I think? Think them, I think. What would I think of them? I think you guys are all really empathetic people. So you can probably do this and say, um, if you fell down the stairs after getting up and getting a certificate, You, um if you find yourself beating yourself up inside, um, if you saw [00:40:30] Stella falling down the stairs after getting her, you would feel empathetic towards her, and you'd say, Oh, my gosh, poor thing. You know, you wouldn't be getting up and saying, Oh, why did you fall down the stairs so I kind of reverse that thinking and kind of try to think myself like I would think of someone else doing that thing that comes from being your own friend, right? And treating yourself how you would treat others. Be your own friend. Be your own parent. Be your own loving time by myself. I thank [00:41:00] you. Good to you, panellist. Um and thanks everyone for listening and contributing.

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TITLE: Coming out, negotiating identities and solidarity - Shift hui (2018)
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VOICES: Aliyah Winter; Brittany Hobcraft; Caity Briggs; Jarrod Klooster; Jaye Barclay; Neo Kenny
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aliyah Winter; Brittany Hobcraft; Caity Briggs; Christmas; Elizabeth Kerekere; InsideOUT Kōaro; Jarrod Klooster; Jaye Barclay; Māori; Neo Kenny; Porirua; Queenstown; Scotland; Shift hui; Shift hui (2018); United Kingdom; Wellington; Youth; advice; agender; authentic self; bigender; bisexual; breakdown; broken; bullying; cars; cisgender; colonialism; coming out; conservative; crying; education; effeminate; ethnic identity; ethnicity; friends; gay; gender; gender fluid; gender identity; going through a phase; google. com; grandparents; heteronormativity; heterosexual; hui; instagram. com; internet; intersectionality; journey; kissing; labels; lesbian; mental health; non-binary; pansexual; parents; primary school; pronouns; queer; safe space; school; school camp; secondary school; sexual identity; sexual orientation; shade; shame; social media; social networking; social studies; solidarity; speech; straight ally; support; takatāpui; teacher; tease; trans woman; transfeminine; transgender; transition; transmasculine; transmasculinity; txt; university; whānau; youtube. com
DATE: 20 April 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Te Horouta Marae, Whitford Brown Avenue, Papakōwhai, Porirua
CONTEXT: The panel is facilitated by Caity Briggs, with panelists Aliyah Winter, Jaye Barclay, Jarrod Klooster, Brittany Hobcraft, Neo Kenny and Sloan. A special thank you to the participants and InsideOUT for allowing this session to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um, So I'm Katie, and I use pronouns. Um, and so we're doing a panel on coming out, Uh, labels negotiating identity and solidarity. Um, it is what it says on the tin as it says on the thing. Um and so first, I just want to get a lovely panellists introduce themselves. I manage their pro. And any identifiers that Kilda, that's me. Um, I'm Brit, and I identify [00:00:30] as that is what I guess is my label. Um, and I use the E pronouns and there's lots of intersections within my identity, which we'll probably get into later. Hi. I'm Jared. Um, I use any pronouns. I'm quite open to any of them. And I identify as gay. Yeah, I am slow. I use [00:01:00] data pronouns and I identify as non-binary um, a new I use pronouns I identify as non-binary and gay. Hey, everyone, I'm Zoe. Um, I usually then pronounce, um I'm not a big fan of labels, but I don't mind the word queer because it's quite broad. I'm Jay. Um, I use and I I did. Yeah. Cool. Um, sorry. I got to say for a second there, Um, so my next question for you all is. [00:01:30] What was it like coming out to yourself? Like, what was that journey like? How did you come to realise you're part of this rainbow? Mm question. Right. Which time? Each each time. Yeah. I first came out as, um by when I was about 13. Um, there was a new girl in class, [00:02:00] and we clicked off really, really well. And, um, she said to me about three hours into this radical new friendship Oh, I just wanna, you know, let you know that, um, I'm by like, I hope that doesn't make anything weird. And I was like, What? What even is that? Like, there's something other than just hit like That's wild. And so then about a month after processing that, and I sort of discussed it with her a bit more and looked into it for myself and that sort of thing, and I was like, That's that's That's cool. [00:02:30] And then, about three years after that, I came out as Pan, um, and just sort of decided by actually didn't really fit me. Um, and that for me, it wasn't so much the, um It just didn't feel like the label that I could identify with, Um, and the more I was sort of looking into different identities, I sort of realised that actually, there's a lot more than just, you know, the classic L, GB and T. [00:03:00] There's more than four, you know, that sort of thing. Um and so I sort of took the identity of Pan as, like, the best option that I had at the time. Um, and I was attracted to people's personalities rather than them as a physical being and, you know, that sort of thing. So I really identified with it, Um, but didn't Yeah, I didn't feel like I fit in that box. Still, but it was [00:03:30] the best I had. And then, um, similar to what Jay was saying earlier, um, around, um, meeting the beautiful Elizabeth, Um, at my first ever, um, and I just lost my crack a little bit because I was like, Whoa, that's That's definitely me. Um, and being Maori has been a journey of identity of its own, um, with a lot of different, um, intergenerational trauma and that [00:04:00] sort of thing. So being able to accept that, as for me to be able to openly say? Actually, that's my identity. And that's super valid Has been a long journey. Um, so, yeah, I think that's me. So for me, um, mine kind of was like, I was kind of, like at the stage of just being, like, sexually confused, like I didn't really know what it was because, um, in primary, I would always get, like, [00:04:30] teased and bullied because I was quite feminine rather than, like, masculine. So I'd always have, like, the higher voice. Um, it was quite pitchy. And everybody kind of just, like was assuming my sexuality when I wasn't even sure of it myself. Um, which kind of made it hard? Because that happened all the way to high school. So I would always get, like, mocked and teased for that. But I never knew until I don't know. I just But I've like Loki secretly liked guys, but I just didn't tell anybody. [00:05:00] Um, and then and then I came to high school. This was only two years ago that I kind of actually, um, accepted the fact that, um, I was kind of different, um, that I was actually gay, like I never accepted it myself until, um I? Because I always, um, volunteered to do things, um, within, like, the sexuality and mental health, Like, um, kind of groups and stuff. So I was always helping out, and that kind of helped me to come out and know more information and just kind of made [00:05:30] the process easier. Um, so that's me coming out. Um, but it was kind of just always a difficult thing because I didn't know how people would react around me. Um, so that kind of made it difficult. But since, like, I've been out, if anybody asks me, I'm literally just straight up, like I have no care anymore because, like, that process was really hard enough, just allowing yourself to just keep that kind of, like, label for yourself kind of helps you more, and it just makes [00:06:00] everything seem easier. So you just like, I don't I'm not ashamed of, like, my sexuality. I just keep I'm just always like, yeah, I'm gay. I'm gay. When I went to Queenstown, I literally told the teacher Yeah, I'm super gay, and that kind of made everything easier. And then everybody knew I was gay, so life was easier. Um, I was like 11 and just started high school because it's really different in the UK. And I remember writing [00:06:30] on the bathroom walls. Uh, I think I might be a lesbian. What do I do? And I had, like, two responses within a week. The first one was like, When you learn how to spell it, right, you'll know you. And then the other one was like, Look, just chill. You'll figure it out. And I'm like, OK, cool. Well, that's obviously a problem for later, Sloan. So I procrastinated it for about 23 years. I was, like, 13. And I'm like, Oh, my God, I think I like girls. So I, like, came [00:07:00] out of the buy first and then fluctuated through that, moved to New Zealand and was like, Oh, nope, just really, really gay. And then, quite recently, I started questioning my gender, and I'm like, What? What is What is gender? Um, yay, um, discovered like non-binary stuff thanks to YouTube and was like, Yeah, that fits. But like also, I'm a boy. Um but they then pronounced and um, [00:07:30] yeah, I think that's about it. My folks were really cool about it, like coming from Scotland. Everything's really, really different to New Zealand. Like the way you're brought up. Everyone's more conservative and very stuck in their ways. And I feel like my parents have gone quite far with that. Yeah, um, I had a quite stereotypical journey. Um, I found out about been gay stuff. [00:08:00] I learned it was a thing on the internet. And, um, for a while I was, like, really invested. And I was like, a a really good ally to the LGBT community, and I was always, like, super into it. And then I realised, Hey, I'm gay. And I actually started with, um, identifying as Pan because I thought I was attracted to guys as well. And, um, just like a few years ago, I realised no, not attracted to guys. And then somewhere in there, I found [00:08:30] out about non-binary, um, identities. And I started, You know, I thought I was gender fluid at first and then a gender and then just settled finally on non-binary. And, um, I came out to my mother in a really tearful like I was, like, full on, like, sobbing as I came out, because in my mind, it was something sort of shameful. Um, obviously, I know now it's not. But at the time, it was quite, um, [00:09:00] a thing. And then I came out to my entire year in a speech because we had to do speeches and we could do it on anything. So I did it on non binary identities and like, um, how that how, like, there's, like, about transphobia and stuff. So I came out to my entire year with, like, a different name and pronouns, and I sort of regret it. But then, at the same time, I know I educated a whole lot of people, and they were really cool about it to my face at least. And, um, I've come [00:09:30] out to lots of my family. But then my mother was also like, Don't come out to your grandparents because it's, like, hard for them. But then I came out anyway, because screw her in, like, the best way. Like that's I'm Yeah, um, but thanks to the intimate for educating me, um, I never really came out as people tend to think of coming out. Uh, I just began to live more [00:10:00] and more as my authentic self. The more I uncovered who that was, um, in. In an ideal world, no one would assume anyone's gender or sex or sexuality. So I don't think it's my responsibility to come out to anyone. Um, but that's probably influenced by the fact that I don't associate with myself with a gender or sexuality, So it's not like I'm going to come out as anything or it's not like I'm going to talk about where I fit within a system of labels and constructs [00:10:30] that I'd actually just like to opt out of altogether. Uh, they have been many situations where people have assumed things about my identity, and I've then said or done things that have contradicted what they've assumed. And lots of people can think of that as as coming out, and that's totally valid. But that's not really how I think of it. I think of it as them being unaware or them being indirectly called out. Um, so it's it's on them, it's not on me. So [00:11:00] yeah, coming out hasn't really been an experience that I feel like I've had or needed. I've just lived more as my authentic self cool. Um, I first realised my attraction to one when I was, like 11. Um, and then in health class, someone some random student who had done research said, Don't worry, everyone has a gay face. You'll just forget about it. And I was like, Do better forget about this for four years. Um, and then sort of, like, came out as [00:11:30] by when I was 15, and I was really like, Who? Yeah, everyone. I'll tell the whole world. Um, but I feel like even back then that was sort of a cover for my own insecurity about it. Like I'm realising this five years down the track, I actually was still tackling a lot of my own internalised stuff. Um, and I sort of acted in a very, very stereotypical way because I thought like, well, I didn't fit into that group, the straight group. So this is how I have to act to fit into the the by group, Um, [00:12:00] and sort of figured out that I wasn't cisgender when I was about 17. Um, I went through, like, a whole lot of different labels, Um, like bi gender, then a gender, then a gender trans masculine. Um And then I learned about Tau and realised Hey, this is so much easier than giving myself a million micro labels, and it's actually much more comfortable. Um, so, yeah. Like, as I mentioned previously, my relationship to my gender is very complicated. Um, because [00:12:30] of the constructs of colonialism and how I fit into all that, um, with being Maori and also being just very mixed race in general. Like, um, I'm also like, anti European and have, like, Ukrainian and Japanese ancestry. Um, so there's, like, a whole lot of intersectionality that plays into my identity as well as, like, my my gender sexuality, my sex and, um, my cultures and my ethnicity. [00:13:00] Um, yeah. So it's been a bit of a wild ride having to navigate all of those separate things. Um, but it teaches you a lot about, um, just being empathetic for other people because everyone has really different experiences. Um, and yeah, my family have been pretty chill. Pretty chill about it. It's been a bit of a journey with them, too, but, um, like it is with any any family. Really? Um, yeah, that's me. Yeah, I was just [00:13:30] gonna do that. Everyone. I'm a She had pronouns. Um, I was a little bit late this morning. My apologies, Um, and I identify as trans feminine and also as a trans woman and also as queer. Um, so I've definitely had a long journey with coming out as well come out many times. Um, and it's sort of hard to say, Like, I've always known that I was queer because it was very obvious from you know, when you first start [00:14:00] to speak and first start to be a person in the world. Um, but I came out. I guess the first time I came out was when I was about 14 or 15, and I came out as bi very tentatively, sort of like 1 ft out of the closet door and then went back in straight away after a lot of people clapped back. Um uh, yeah, and that was difficult. And then I was just sort of unspoken queer during [00:14:30] high school. Um, I didn't really specifically talk to people about it, but I just was sleeping with who I was sleeping with and having relationships with people. But I did sort of keep it to myself as well. I was quite guarded and private. Um, and it wasn't really until I moved away from high school and moved to Wellington that I started to figure out that I was probably Trans and then I didn't transition until my early twenties. [00:15:00] And then I first came out as non-binary, and I didn't know if I so that was like my social transition. And I didn't know if I wanted to, you know, take medical steps or whatever, and then I decided that I did. And then I came out again as a trans woman, mainly because it was so difficult for all of my friends and family to understand what non binary was. And so I also have, like quite a complicated relationship to labels where I'm quite fine [00:15:30] to be called, you know, a trans woman and have that because it's easier for people to understand. But equally I don't actually identify most of the time on the binary. And, um, yeah, and my sexuality is queer. So yeah, that's been my journey. Just give you a chance. Um, and then the next question and some of you have already mentioned it, which is really cool, [00:16:00] um, as a part of your coming out story, because obviously coming out can be. If it's something you're doing a daily thing, or whenever you start a new job or meet new people, you may or may not choose to come out. So if you want to hear a story of that, whether it be to family or friends or that first time you say the words out loud, Hm? Hi. You're on the spot now. Mm. Ok, um, So, [00:16:30] um, again, I think because there's been so many times, um, with different identities and different crowds and different spaces. Um, I think when I was younger, I sort of hadn't been through, um, a journey with myself. If that makes sense, like I get, life is with yourself. And, you know, um but that, like, I hadn't fully actually understood where I was, [00:17:00] Um, and who I was and all that sort of thing. Um, what makes me me, um and so, Yeah, I think I sort of got into this space of almost, like, analysing spaces before I went into them. Um, and the second I walked through the door, I was analysing, actually, Am I safe to be who I think I am at the moment or um, you know, whatever identity that I was identifying with at the time, actually, is it safe to share [00:17:30] that here? And, um, am I gonna be accepted? And actually, am I in the, you know, the right head space to be able to deal with any questions or with any, um, rude things to come from it or anything like that? Um, and so I think it sort of became part of my norm. And it actually took quite a lot of learning to get out of, um, and thanks. And yeah. So I think in that sense, it was always quite interesting. [00:18:00] But, um, I came out to my whole social studies class when I first came out because I knew that I wasn't the only one in the class, and so I sort of assessed it, and I sort of went, you know, actually, I've already know that I've got at least one support person in this space, so I know I'm going to be safe. Um, and I Yeah, it was quite a mixed field. Some people were like, Oh, cool, whatever. Like what's new? And then other people, I think, [00:18:30] were definitely more. What's that You're weird. You're different, you know, that sort of thing. Um, but again, I think I was lucky enough to be able to focus on the support systems that I did have at that time. Um, and to be able to really try and strengthen those because that's what I needed at that time. Um, so, yeah, so for me, like coming out story was kind of like I don't know. So I went to a camp first, and, um, it [00:19:00] was like we were celebrating, and then we'd all share story each and then one person like I wasn't out yet. And one person shared their story and I felt so, like, broken inside that I, like, ran out of the room and I don't know. I just, like, was so ashamed of who I was because I wasn't out. And they just outed themselves to everyone. And then it wasn't until I got back at school the following Monday, and, um, at school, I didn't talk to anyone. I shut [00:19:30] everybody out. They asked me how I am, and I was just like, hm, like I would not talk to anyone. And it was until I got home that day that I kind of was like, I don't know, I was trying to, like, put into words how my day was, but couldn't actually get get into words. And then I knew for a fact that was kind of my time to actually come out like it was perfect for me. So, um, I did mine on social media. I did it on INSTAGRAM. I like my personal, [00:20:00] So nobody else saw it. So I was only coming out to my group of friends. Um, so I did that and it was like, three posts long. So, like it was like a story rather than, like, I'm gay. It was just a story. And then, um Then everybody was commenting. I got a few phone calls and everybody was just, like, happy, like I'd expect, like so much hate from people. But it was just for me to come to terms with myself. And then it was when I went to school the next day that it wasn't [00:20:30] just my group of friends that knew I was gay, like everybody at school knew I was gay because they shared it amongst everyone. And it was kind of like I was kind of like the only out person at my school which kind of was really cool at the same time, but quite difficult. And it was just quite amazing that you find so much support for everybody and like, they'd ask you all these questions like, Oh, cool. So like, um, how did you know you were gay or you get those people that were like, I? I already knew you were gay and you're like, [00:21:00] hm can't assume. But, um, yeah, it was quite it was just a cool process, um, of how I got there and I just felt like, quite amazing. And then I just tell people that story and I came up to my friends before my actual family. So because I wanted that support because I see them every day, even though I see my parents every day. But they were the ones that I wanted to surround myself with more. Yeah, um, I came out to my mum in a really emotional way. I, [00:21:30] like tried coming out to her a bunch of times before, and she was just kind of like having none of it. It was great. Um, but I had, like, a day off school, and I was She was talking to someone and I had a full breakdown in the living room and just started crying. And she's like, shit, what? And like, ran over and like, hugged me, and she's like, What's going on? And I told her, like loads of traumatic stuff and I was like, I don't feel anything for guys. I'm really gay. And she's like, Oh, OK, and like, hugged me and she's like, You know, No, no, nothing's your fault. You know? Everything's great. [00:22:00] It's gonna be great. And like, I already came out to all of my friends before, Like Jared said, I wanted that support. So I knew that if anything went bad at home, I had someone to go to. Um, but yeah, she took it all right. After, like, three attempts of trying to come out to her as different things. Um, yeah, that was pretty much it, um I came out to my friends over text and literally everyone I came out to came out to me in return. [00:22:30] Like there was not one person that didn't come out. It was incredible. That's a whole another level of finding them before you're out together. Uh, I don't really think I have any specific experiences to share, but my general experience has been that, um I guess growing up, I had hetero noms and gender roles very much imposed on me. And I didn't have [00:23:00] any understanding of gender or sexuality diversity or anything like that. Um, so then when I started university and I got some autonomy from my family and I started meeting cool people in the rainbow community and educating myself, I realised that I had a lot of stuff to work out for myself and like my own happiness and well-being. And since then, I feel like I've been on a constant journey of unlearning all of this stuff that I believed about myself and about my role in the world [00:23:30] in order to uncover who I am underneath all of that and separate to all of that. And that's something that I'm still working on. Um, I also came out to my friends first after, like me gushing about a friend online who was a girl and was close friends with another girl. And my dumb 14 year old asked was like, Ah, she said [00:24:00] that she wants to kiss me. Why does that make me feel like you know, Um but then she also said that she wants to kiss this other girl. Maybe I'm just jealous of how close their friendship is. That's difficult. Um, and so they, like, took it fine. They were like, we literally suggested maybe this was the case when you said that you're jealous, but Yeah, cool. Um, but the sort of like the my like most, I guess, um, [00:24:30] important memory of, like, coming out, which which was, like, the first time I came out to my mom, um was when I, like, came out as buy when I was 15, we were in the car on the way home from the place we both worked at, Um, and I've come out to both my parents separately for both my gender and my sexuality. And every time it was in a car driving somewhere, um, relatable. Um, So I remember I was just like you have to say it, Mum, like, I'm bye. And she was [00:25:00] like, I don't think so. And then we just talk about it for a wee while. Um, And that wasn't necessarily a thing of like like she just didn't like have that as much when she was younger, Um, and so that was a bit of a process. Being like, um, yes, I'm actually, by now I'm not a lesbian because none of my relationships have worked out with men. Shade. Um, like I do like men like it's fine. Um, and I think like with all of the times that I've come out to my family, it's been [00:25:30] like a bit of a weird, like learning experience for both of us, like me and learning to be patient, um, and like understanding that they're not being like, not saying like, kind of ignorant things out of, like, spite. It's just because they genuinely don't know. Um and, yeah, I guess, just like it's been like a long educating, like road of like self discovery for, like both me and my family. And yeah, it's been a cool process. Um, [00:26:00] I also came up to my mum in the car, in a moving vehicle, driving back from Christmas, because in my head I was sort of like if it goes badly, I was coming up to her as trance and I was like, If it goes badly, then I can just get out and get a bus somewhere else, and it didn't go badly at all. That was kind of a, um an over over anticipation of bad reaction on my part. But, um, yeah, it was sort of just a simple conversation where we were [00:26:30] kind of like silent for a bit, and she kind of knew that I wanted to say something but didn't know what it was gonna be. And then I was just like I'm and then she was like, Oh, yeah, I thought so. And then we drove all the way home. Um, you have time for cool. Um, so what we'll do is any questions we'll do during quiet time [00:27:00] because I think the most important part is a piece of advice you'd give the young people here who are still need to start that coming out process again. This was on the email. No, I know. I'm processing and thinking. OK, so, um, I guess thinking about the last question in mind, I think there's been more times that I've actually come out as Maori. Um and that took a lot because um, [00:27:30] the yeah, there's a whole lot of journey behind that. And so for me, um, I was white. I wasn't raised, um, on a I wasn't raised knowing my I wasn't I didn't even know I was Maori until I was about 14. And, um, a lot of different things just around, you know, that whole culture side of, um, me that actually for a long time. Um, it's still very new for me to proudly be able to say [00:28:00] I'm, um And it's been less than a year. Um, but And again, that's because my journey, um, around that was because I I was invalidating myself. Um, and that actually just be you because you can come out as many times as you want, as we've just discussed. Um, but that actually, you are super valid as you, um [00:28:30] And so I think just embrace that. Yeah, my piece of advice is probably Yeah. Just don't be ashamed of who you are, Um, and, like, it may take people time to, like, accept who you are, but never be ashamed of who you are. Just keep doing you. And if they don't like you, then then you don't need to like them back. So just just keep [00:29:00] living. You'll do amazing things. So, yeah, I think my bit of advice would be You don't have to feel the need to come out if you're not safe. Like, make sure you're safe before you come out like you have something to fall back on. You have somewhere to go because like you don't wanna feel like you have nothing or noone because that sucks. This [00:29:30] is about like, after coming out, you don't have to be the source of information for everyone. Um, because like since I came out, everyone's everyone's come to me, especially because I came out to my everyone came up to me and was like, What's this? What's that? What's what is gay, what is by what is Trans? And you can just be like, Hey, google it, you don't have to be there to educate them like it's not your job just because you're LGBT. My advice would be that you, do. You [00:30:00] and that whatever you choose to do or not to do should be for yourself. Um, also to remember that it's OK not to have all the answers. It's OK to change your identity or to try different labels or names or experiences to see what works for you and what doesn't, especially in a society that's so obsessed with putting people into boxes. It's, um, all part of connecting with who you are and who you want to be. Um, I'd also say connecting with other people [00:30:30] and, uh, people who understand or people provide who provide you with a safe space to be who you are, because it can be a very, uh, lonely and hard journey if you do it in isolation. Um, my advice is just, I guess, um, take your time And, um, that relates to what, um, Zoe was saying with, like this, you have honestly, so much time to try different things and explore yourself. Um, [00:31:00] and that's like a lot of trial and error and a lot of, um, like self reflection and introspection. And it's not always like an easy thing to do, Um, or like it's not always like an easy feeling to pin down, and it can take a while. Um, and there's like no queer rule book that says you have to pick one and then say this for the rest of your life. Um so, like, don't freak out if things change. Or if you find that you're a different person further down the line, because people change and it's [00:31:30] a normal part of life. I don't know what else I can add. Really, I think you guys said everything, but yeah, I'll just reiterate, I guess, like, yeah, if you don't just always be aware of yourself and how you're feeling with the kind of process of coming out and keep yourself safe and yeah, if you are unsure, that's totally fine. And there can be a lot of cognitive dissonance for people when you're kind of like not sure what's going on or but just if [00:32:00] you can just try and sit with it. Um, yeah, you don't have to make up your mind straight away or ever if you don't want to clear yeah, to violence. OK, um, so Jared's just said, What about her? Her aunt out? Do I have advice? And I hadn't thought that far ahead. Um, my advice would be that you don't have that. It's already been said. You don't have to [00:32:30] rush it. You don't have to be like OK, well, now I know that I'm bi or I'm not. I'm a gender or whatever you have to tell people. That's you know, sometimes you're like, Oh, I found that. It's an exciting thing. I feel like I should tell the world you don't have to. Sometimes it's nice just to sit and know that you know who you are. And that's the most important thing. Yeah, it was asked to move around as clips or whatever they are reasonable, mhm.

IRN: 1194
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/expungement_of_convictions_parliament_3_april_2018.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004533
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089827
TITLE: Parliament: third reading of the Criminal Records (Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences) Bill
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Adrian Rurawhe; Andrew Bayly; Andrew Falloon; Andrew Little; Anne Tolley; Chris Bishop; Chris Finlayson; Darroch Ball; Duncan Webb; Grant Robertson; Jan Logie; Jenny Salesa; Joanne Hayes; Louisa Wall; Maggie Barry; Matt King; Raymond Huo
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; 2010s; Adrian Rurawhe; Alan Turing; Alan Turing law; Amy Adams; Andrew Bayly; Andrew Falloon; Andrew Little; Anne Tolley; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Campaign to Pardon Gays in Aotearoa; Canada; Charles Brasch; Charles Mackay; Chinese; Chris Finlayson; Civil Union Act (2004); Community Law (Wellington); Crimes Act (1908); Crimes Act (1961); Crimes Amendment Bill (1974, Venn Young); Criminal Records (Clean Slate) Act (2004); Criminal Records (Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences) Act 2018; Darroch Ball; Duncan Webb; Enigma machine; Fran Wilde; Frank Sargeson; Geneva; Geoff Smith; Georgina Beyer; Germany; Gordon Brown; Grant Robertson; Helen Clark; Historic Convictions; Hocken Library (Dunedin); Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Human Rights Act (1993); ILGA World; Inter-Parliamentary Union; Jan Logie; Jenny Salesa; Joanne Hayes; John Fleet; John Graham-Cumming; John Wolfenden; Justice Committee; Kaleidoscope Trust; Katherine O'Regan; Kevin Hague; Kiritapu Allan; Leonard Hollobon; Louisa Wall; Maggie Barry; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Matt King; Member of Parliament; National Party; New Zealand First; New Zealand Labour Party; Norman Jones; Norman Kirk; Offences against the Person Act (1867); Parliament buildings; Raymond Huo; Rodney Kennedy; Rowan Williams; Secretary for Justice; South Africa; State-Sponsored Homophobia report (ILGA); The Fruits of Our Labours (book); Tim Barnett; Toss Woollaston; Trevor Mallard; United Kingdom; Vulnerable Children Act (2014); Walter D'Arcy Cresswell; Wellington; Winston Peters; Wiremu Demchick; Wolfenden report; Yogyakarta Principles (2006); acceptance; apology; arts; attitude; aversion therapy; bisexual; blackmail; chemical castration; colonialism; colonisation; compensation; convictions; crime; crimes against humanity; criminal background check; criminal history; criminal record; discrimination; employment; execution; expungement; family; fear; florist; gay; gender diverse; gender identity; government; guilt; hate; homophobia; homosexual; homosexual law reform petition; human rights; imprisonment; law; legislation; lesbian; love; mental illness; overseas travel; pedophilia; petition; petition on historic convictions; police; poll tax; restorative practice; school; select committee; self esteem; self hate; self loathing; self-acceptance; shame; stigma; takatāpui; trans; transgender; transphobia; unnatural offence; women; writing
DATE: 3 April 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Call on government Order of the day Number two Criminal records Expungement of Convictions for historical homosexual Offences Bill Third Reading I call the Honourable Andrew Little Mr Speaker I move that the Criminal Records Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences Offences Bill Be now read a third time Madam Speaker. The bill addresses the prejudice, stigma and other negative effects [00:00:30] caused by convictions for historical homosexual offences. The Justice and Electoral Committee considered the petition from and 2111 others calling for an apology to those convicted of consensual homosexual acts prior to 1986 and the process for reversing those convictions. An apology was made in the house on the sixth of July 2017 by my predecessor as Minister of Justice, the Honourable Amy Adams and [00:01:00] the bill has created a process for expunging the these convictions from criminal records. The bill provides for a statutory scheme that allows people convicted of historical homosexual offences to apply to have their convictions expunged. The Secretary for Justice must be satisfied on the balance of probabilities that the conduct would not be an offence under today's law. In particular, this will include the secretary being satisfied that all parties involved were [00:01:30] 16 years or older and the conduct was consensual. A convicted person or a representative of the convicted person, if they are uh deceased, can make an application for expungement eligibility under the scheme is for people convicted of any of five specific offences. These include offences that were decriminalised under the Homosexual Law Reform Act in 1986 and their predecessor offences. If expungement is granted, [00:02:00] it entitles the convicted person to declare they have no such conviction for any purpose under New Zealand law and the conviction will not appear on any criminal history check. It's an offence for officials to disclose expunged convictions. There would be no compensation, however, as this would go beyond the purpose of the scheme, which is to prevent further negative effects from the stigma of conviction. There's no general principle that a person who's [00:02:30] convicted of a repeal offence is entitled to compensation on the repeal of the offence. In this instance, there's no suggestion that the convictions in question were wrongfully imposed as they were in accordance with the law at the time. The bill sends a clear signal that discrimination against homosexual people is no longer acceptable and that we are committed to putting right wrongs from the past. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank a number of people [00:03:00] who've been instrumental in the passage of this bill. Firstly, the honourable Amy Adams, who introduced the bill to the House. Secondly, the members of the Justice Committee who spent considerable time and effort hearing submissions, considering very carefully the detail of the bill and coming up with the bill that is more or less intact as we embark on its third reading. I'd like to thank all parliamentary parties for their backing of the bill and for the constructive [00:03:30] way in which this bill has progressed through every stage of the House. The bill has enjoyed widespread support as it has passed through the House. Can I acknowledge the many, many other citizens, including the women and lesbian women who have been part of this cause for justice, supporting the men and their families who have been wrongly stigmatised for so long? Both be before, but especially since the passage of the Homosexual Law Reform Act in 1986 [00:04:00] Madam Speaker, the one of the calls and the permission from was for an apology. And indeed, the honourable Amy Adams referred to a motion in the house or in fact, moved a motion in the house providing for that apology. That was, in terms of apologising to new what were described as homosexual New Zealanders who were convicted for consensual adult activity and to recognise the [00:04:30] tremendous hurt and suffering that those men and their families have gone through. Can I say not? Because the Apolo that apology was not genuine. It was from this Parliament. But can I say an ad, a personal touch that is the current minister of justice on behalf of this house and all members who have passed through it since parliament was established in New Zealand. Sorry to those men [00:05:00] who have carried the stigma and shame of doing nothing other than expressing the love for the person that they did love. And for the families who have shared that shame and embarrassment as well. And to the many thousands of others who lived in eternal fear of a law that was unjust and to our mind and proper that we have enjoyed [00:05:30] the benefit of a better enlightenment if I could put it that way. A better sense of justice, of respect for the dignity of the person and who they are. And this law goes some way to recognising that for the many, many men who were treated in the most unjust way for who they were and and for doing nothing other than [00:06:00] expressing their love. It is the right thing for this house to do. Uh, Madam Speaker, can I also address another issue that came up in submissions? And that was the call for compensation And the committee having considered that request from submissions, not all submitters, uh, but enough to make it an issue worthy of further consideration. The committee acknowledged that it was too complex a task, uh, [00:06:30] to set up not only a process where every individual has their personal circumstances considered in the process of achieving an expungement, but then to consider whether compensation ought to be payable and therefore, you know, and if so, how much that was going to be. Too complicated. So But that does not mean that members of this house and indeed the government bureaucracy that will now be put in place to administer the [00:07:00] scheme provided for in this bill, Uh, does not consider that we must continue as a nation, recognising the diversity of all people in this country their sexuality and sexual orientation and looking for opportunities to celebrate that diversity. Uh, and, uh, to continue to acknowledge what a richer country [00:07:30] we are for allowing people to express themselves and who they are. As I said, Madam Speaker, this bill will go some way to putting right a wrong that has been on the records of the thousands of men affected by the unjust law. Uh, that was finally removed in 1986. It will go some way, but it will never replace the years and decades of hurt and harm that have been caused as a result. [00:08:00] Madam Speaker, we can be thankful to some small degree that this house and this generation recognises the injustice, uh, and has put that right and and it is recognised across this house from all members from all parties who have, uh, united together to express this act of justice. Uh, so on that basis, Madam Speaker, [00:08:30] I once again thank those citizens who were brave enough and courageous enough to bring this matter to the attention of the House to express thanks to all members of the House who have been involved either through the select committee or simply as members voting on this bill to have to have brought that insidious injustice to an end. And finally to commend this bill to the house. Madam Speaker, the question is that the motion be agreed to [00:09:00] Chris Bishop, Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Today is a historic day for the parliament because the Parliament is going to unanimously apologise and pass legislation which allows people convicted men convicted of homosexual offences prior to 1986 to wipe those convictions from the statute book. And I want to acknowledge, um, first of all, the minister for his, um, ongoing [00:09:30] leadership in this area. Uh, but also the honourable Amy Adams, the minister of Justice, who introduced, uh, the legislation, uh, in the previous parliament. But more importantly, I want to acknowledge, uh, and the 2111 others who signed the petition that brought that issue to the Justice Committee, the Justice and Electoral Committee, as it then was in the last parliament. Uh, and, uh, all my colleagues on that committee who considered, uh, that particular [00:10:00] petition. Also, I want to acknowledge, uh, Kevin Hague, who I'm sure is watching the debate tonight because it was Kevin, uh, who presented the petition on behalf of Mr um And I know we're joined in the house tonight by Georgina Buyer, uh, as well, fantastic to see you in the chamber. Uh, Georgina. And for your leadership over many years on issues like this and others. It's 32 years since homosexual law reform seems hard to believe, really. 32 [00:10:30] years, and, uh, sadly, this this parliament doesn't have very many members left who were around at the time. But I've talked to the honourable Anne King who's just left us, and I've talked to Trevor Mallard. Um, I haven't talked to Winston Peters about it, but I have talked to Trevor Mallard, and it's hard for people of my age and generation to get their heads around the vitriol and the hate, uh, and the [00:11:00] anger and the sense of controversy at the time, 800,000 people signed a petition, and it turns out that a lot of those 800,000 were dead or they were Children or they weren't actually real people. But regardless of how you measure it, hundreds of thousands of people signed petitions asking that the that the wild bill uh, not proceed. It's hard for people of my [00:11:30] age who were. I was three at the time, perhaps four, to understand the hate. And so New Zealand has come a long way since 1986. And I acknowledge Louisa Wall and her contribution to our next steps on the evolution, uh, with the marriage equality legislation in 2013. And this, I believe is is just a further progression of trying to create a New Zealand where people of all backgrounds, all sexualities, [00:12:00] all genders, are welcomed and embraced for who they are, Uh, and for their own individual humanity. Of course, It was then Young who introduced the first legislation in 1974 to decriminalise homosexuality, uh, between consenting adults between 21 years and over and and Norman Kirk opposed it, says Christopher Fin. [00:12:30] But but people have been people in this house have made the efforts over many years to try and put wrong try and put right what is wrong, and this legislation is a continuation of it. So what does it actually do? Well, in a in a technical sense, it allows people who are convicted of specific offences under the Crimes Act related to sexual activity between males 16 years and over, uh, to apply [00:13:00] to the Secretary of Justice. To have those convictions expunge the five specific offences 1 41 in decency between males 1 42 sodomy 1 46 Keeping place of resort for homosexual acts 1. 53 and section 1 54 and attempt to commit an unnatural offence And we think about 1000 people were affected by these offences prior to 1986. So it allows, uh, people [00:13:30] who were convicted of those offences to apply to the secretary. It's done on the papers. Uh, the secretary is responsible for determining applications on a case by case basis. The law is modelled on, uh, overseas jurisdictions, uh, the United Kingdom, where it's known as law, Of course. Uh, various parts of Australia and the Justice and Electoral Committee actually travelled to Australia, uh, in the last parliament to hear from other jurisdictions as to how they did it. And we've made some technical amendments [00:14:00] to the legislation to reflect that. But in general, the the bill as introduced was a pretty good one, because it reflected what's happened in overseas jurisdictions. So in a technical sense, it's a It's a fine piece of legislation, but the most important thing that it does, uh, Madam Speaker, is it puts right wrongs from the past. It is the Parliament, saying unanimously these laws should never have been the law. [00:14:30] It's Parliament saying these laws were wrong and we are going to express our condemnation of those laws by expunging or allowing people who are convicted of those by those laws the ability to expunge them from their own records. And it is Parliament saying to the rainbow community and those who were affected by the laws, you should not have to bear the stigma and the shame [00:15:00] and the height any more, because now you have the ability to wipe it from, uh, the books and make sure that that ongoing sense of shame and stigma does not continue at its core. Madam Speaker, This bill has a very simple notion put in right what is and [00:15:30] was wrong and in my first reading in my speech on the first reading of this bill, Madam Speaker, I did say, and that I did admit that I did struggle with the concept for some time for a couple of reasons. One, I thought it would be very difficult to unpick uh, conduct that everyone now agrees should have been legal from that which was not legal and should never have been legal. And there was some advice and evidence [00:16:00] that the police were often not exactly particularly picky about what particular offences they chose to charge people under. And it turns out that we can move through that, and it turns out that the enough records exist and, um, to be able to unpick that. But I did. I was worried about that, and I was also worried about the concept of rewriting history. I was worried about the Parliament looking back and saying, Essentially, these laws should never have existed and and I think you do need to [00:16:30] be. We do need to be wary as a Parliament about when we do something like this. We do because it is essentially recast in history, whether we like it or not, and we obviously don't. The laws that existed prior to 1986 were the law. That was the law of the land and people were convicted. But the thing is, when you talk to the people who are affected by the laws, when you have the conversations and you hear the evidence and we did at select committee [00:17:00] and I have done through my engagement in the community and you listen to the experiences and you listen to what people went through and you you reflect on, how can that be the New Zealand? How can that How could that have even happened in New Zealand? And you just have to You just have to acknowledge that the Parliament this is the right thing to do. Uh, for the parliament, it's the right thing to do [00:17:30] to say to our rainbow community, your individual and collective humanity is affirmed and solidified by this legislation. These laws should never have been in place. They did do harm. They did cause grief. They did cause dissent, and they did cause hate. And the parliament is now making a unanimous stand for tolerance [00:18:00] and equality and diversity. And I am so very pleased to commend this bill to the house. Six. I call the Honourable Grant Roberts. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. And thank you for the opportunity to take a call in this, uh, third reading debate, Madam Speaker. Uh, a few years ago, after one of the Labour Party's leadership contests, we had a couple. Um I, uh, took some. I took some time out [00:18:30] and I went down to Dunedin, and I went to the Hockin library in Dunedin, and I went there to look into a person who in many years to come when I leave this place I want to write a book about and his name is Rodney Kennedy. And Rodney, Um, I won't go into the connection that I have with Rodney Kendy. But Rodney Kenny was an amazing man. Patron of the arts. Uh, supported Colin McCann, toss Williston. Incredible person had a long running, uh, relationship and, um, potentially [00:19:00] platonic relationship with Charles Brash, uh, the poet, uh, and was an incredible person and has never really been recognised. I my belief for what he did in his contribution to the arts. And when I was looking at some of his, uh, records, I came across, uh, a very, very small envelope, which he in. It was, uh, he had addressed it to Charles Brash, who at that point wasn't living in Dunedin but was living in Christchurch. This would be in the 19 late 19 fifties, [00:19:30] early 19 sixties, and inside the envelope was a very, very small newspaper clipping, which said, Rodney Eric Kennedy was today discharged from the conviction of indecency with another male. And what Rodney Kennedy had obviously done was that he'd clipped that out of the paper, and he'd sent it in an envelope to Charles Brash. There were no other words in the envelope, no letter, [00:20:00] nothing. Just this clipping. And Rodney Kennedy and Charles Brash moved in circles, particularly Charles Brash moved in circles where the shame and the fear and the anxiety and the depression caused by the illegality of homosexuality and by the arrests and by the attitude of the police of the time would have been unbearable. And in this incredibly poignant moment, it captured for me the impact [00:20:30] it had on these men's lives. They could barely speak to one another about this. Rodney Kennedy added no words to that clipping. He couldn't express himself and how he felt to a man he was close to very close to and shared a relationship with. That was the state of fear that these men lived in. And it is to Rodney Kennedy [00:21:00] to Norris Davey and to the less famous when Norris Davey became Frank Sarge and the less famous men that we stand tonight as a parliament and we say we're sorry and I say more than that as I did in my first reading, I say, I'm sorry as a man who has been able to live my life relatively freely as a homosexual male, a person who's able to come to this Parliament [00:21:30] and get heckled and abused by the national party because I'm the finance spokesman, not because I'm a gay man. That's a fantastic advance that is built on the shoulders of those men and not just of those men who were arrested or convicted or who spent time in prison, but of those men who just live their lives as a gay man [00:22:00] who actually just tried to survive through those years. So to all of the men who were not arrested and their families, we also say sorry because this rule law was and is wrong. And the fact that we can expunge, uh, the convictions today is a mighty step forward for addressing that. But the constant fear and the reminder of the worthlessness and the shame of your [00:22:30] mere existence is not something we can put away so easily because it echoes through generations. And I've been deeply moved by the men and their families who have written to me since this legislation came forward. And since the first reading, who have expressed the fact that finally there is a time for them to feel some self-worth. But we can't undo what's been done to them. But we [00:23:00] can now say it was wrong. We are sorry, and we want to say that out loud to me, These men are heroes. They are people that we should look up to. They are people who now need to know that their country actually does value them. I want to thank as others have tonight for starting this through his petition. It was a brave act, and it was supported by more than 2000 other people. All of them, uh, deserve credit. I also [00:23:30] want to add my thanks to Amy Adams, the Minister of Justice, who introduced the legislation and to Andrew Little, my colleague, who has shepherd it through and also to the Select Committee. The select committee improved this bill. The Select committee have made it particularly in terms of travelling overseas. Uh, I believe that they have a strengthened what Parliament is trying to achieve here so that hopefully, uh, when people travel, they won't be required to disclose a conviction that is no longer, uh, with them. Madam Speaker. [00:24:00] It's important for me to address the topic of compensation tonight. There were many submissions of the or a large percentage of the submissions that came to the committee that sought compensation. Uh, for the men involved. I have to tell you that the men themselves have mixed views on that matter. Some would like, I believe, to see compensation. Others believe that that is an impossible thing to calculate, and actually not what they want the focus of this to [00:24:30] be about. So we have to recognise and accept that there are mixed views about that question. What I want to focus on Madam Speaker is that while there may not be compensation. I can give my personal commitment that there will be a legacy that we, as a parliament in the future, will be able to find a way to pay tribute to those who have gone before and give to those who are to come. [00:25:00] Because Madam Speaker, the journey that this bill that the the the step this bill takes represents another step in a journey, a journey that we can point to great milestones. And Chris Bishop has already done some of this to the Homosexual Law Reform Act and the incredible work of Fran Wilde to the Human Rights Act and the tremendous work of Catherine O'Regan in supporting that forward to the Civil Union Bill, a civil [00:25:30] union act with Tim Barnett, Georgina buyer and others who did such a fantastic, uh, job there and forward to marriage equality with my colleague uh Lewis, a driving that piece of legislation and supported by by fantastic people such as Kevin Hagan and Jan Loki. Those are important steps on the journey, and this is another one. But there are more to come because Madam Speaker, we should not be naive that if you're a young trans person growing up in rural [00:26:00] New Zealand today, your life is not easy. You're likely to be subject to discrimination. You're likely to feel the stigma and the hurt that these men felt. Actually, if you're a young gay man growing up in some of those places, you will still feel the same. Not every school in our country is a safe place if you are gay or lesbian or bisexual or transgender or intersex. Not every community in New Zealand is a safe place. [00:26:30] There is still more work to do. There is still some legal recognition to sort out when it comes to our trans community to make sure that they believe that the Human Rights Act actually works in their favour. And there is a tremendous amount of work to do to make sure that every young New Zealander grows up believing in themselves, believing in their own value and knowing that society supports them. That society says you have self-worth. [00:27:00] You are an important person, you have great potential and whether you are gay or whether you have gender diversity, or you are questioning that we will support you through that. So the legacy of tonight for me has to be that we continue the journey towards not just tolerance but acceptance and embracing diversity. And in saying that is what makes our country a great country to live in. But [00:27:30] we know we have more to do, so there will be more that comes from tonight. But for now, I commend this bill. I celebrate the fact that we are expunging these convictions. I say sorry again to the men and their families and commit again to supporting a legacy from this that will ensure that in the future, generations of young people know they matter. Love is not a crime. They should be who they are. [00:28:00] Madam Speaker, I call the Honourable Maggie Barry. Thank you, Madam Speaker, I am very proud tonight to be part of this group of people who are making change as we reflect on the amount of change uh, that we have witnessed going back 32 years to the homosexual law reform bill, Uh, in another life, Uh, I was, uh, a radio interviewer. And in the lead up to that legislation going through, I interviewed uh, Norm Jones, [00:28:30] known as the mouth from the South and Fran Wild in a talkback session, which remains one of the most torrid of my broadcasting career. Uh, Norm at that stage had a stick, and he wheeled it. He wielded it and attempted to bash Fran Wilde, who was sitting across from him with the microphone in between, It was commercial radio, madam Chair and I went to a break. And I said things that I could not repeat in this house, uh, to the member of parliament for Invercargill at the time and [00:29:00] suggested that if there was the faintest murmur of anger and antagonism, he would be gone. And I would spend the rest of the three hours, uh, taking talk back with only Fran Wilde that did, in fact silence him for a while. But when people have alluded to and talked about the courage and the courage it takes to make change, I think that it is an opportunity to reflect on how far we have come. Yes, as the um, the speakers have said, we've still got a long way to go to build a more tolerant and accepting society. But this is a bill [00:29:30] that was long overdue. This is a place that took too long to change the wrongs of the past. But it has done so now, and it is doing so tonight. And I add my apology to the men down the decades who have suffered as a result of the love that they have felt as an natural instinct for another person that those are the the crimes that are not crimes. These are the places where we need to consider the consequences and the unintended consequences sometimes of laws. [00:30:00] But these laws, when they were enacted and when they were enforced, were cruel. And the men who suffered under their the yoke of these laws, uh, lived in fear. I was brought up in this area. My mother was a florist, uh, on Molesworth street. Her business partner was gay. That wasn't a word that was ever used, of course, in that context, uh, but he was somebody who, uh, was a florist. Uh, he was beloved of his mother. He was an only child. He was blackmailed. And my mother [00:30:30] came home. Uh, very upset and very distressed. Uh, because, uh, one of her best friends had decided to leave the country to go to South Africa. other side of the world. He didn't know anyone. And to start his business a fresh because he could not bear the idea that his mother would find out who he really was. He then left the country. He never returned. He never said goodbye to his mother. In those days, uh, there wasn't the phone calls, the skyping and so forth. Obviously. So the the price [00:31:00] that that family paid represents to me the human individual suffering, Uh, his mother was beside herself and terribly distressed and couldn't understand it. And he never explained because he couldn't. He didn't want her to feel the shame and the stigma and the fear that came with bearing such a freak. And he had that terrible burden. And for me, as a child growing up, I could see that there was something very wrong about stopping that man, uh, from [00:31:30] being honest about himself, maybe to his wider family, Uh, but certainly to the bad people that were blackmailing him him And using these laws, uh, to, uh, to bring about dreadful, tragic and unnecessary consequences. We all I'm sure have stories of this kind. I know that in an era that I've grown up in. There's been enormous change, and we're not quite there yet. But this bill, uh, with the expunging, uh which, you know, means that a person with a criminal record will be amended [00:32:00] to ensure that the conviction does not appear on a criminal history check for any purpose in New Zealand. And that person will be entitled to declare that they have no such conviction. That is enormous, I think, building on again the courage of the people who lead the change. And I commend Louisa Wall, who's in this house tonight on the courage that she showed. These are you. You pay the cost and the penalties and the hatred and derision that I know Fran Wilde experienced and also probably [00:32:30] Louisa as well, uh, moments. But you did the right thing. And tonight, in this house, we are doing the right thing. So in closing, I would say that to all the men who have lived in fear, who have lived with self loathing and a sense that they are are not as good as other people that they have because of this law, even the ones that have passed But for the ones that are there now they have the opportunity to live their lives as they ought to live them. We, as lawmakers, I think, should [00:33:00] save this precious evening and the the all that has gone before it, Uh, with Amy Adams introducing the bill, Uh, with, uh, the current minister carrying it forward and with all the support and genuine sentiment and heart and intellectual rigour as well through the select committee process. And I commend the select committee for the changes that they made because they were ones that enhanced, uh, what what this law change was setting out to do. So those who took the courage and the leadership, I commend you to those who put up with, uh, the [00:33:30] indignity and the horror of of being made to feel the way they did. I commend you as well, and I acknowledge your strength. And again I add my apologies to what has been a long overdue. But tonight is the time when we do reflect we've come a long way and we need it to. So I commend this bill to the house I call Derek. Thank you, Madam Speaker. It's a pleasure to rise on behalf of New Zealand first in full support of the criminal [00:34:00] records expungement of convictions for historical homosexual offences. Bill um, earlier, Chris Bishop mentioned the number 800,000, uh, for the signatures that were gathered originally, Um, and in my ignorance, I didn't know that that was that such a larger number. And that's an extraordinary number of people, um, to, um, want to utilise our their democratic right and their views and do it strongly. Um, and I made a little bit of a gasp because it was such a huge [00:34:30] number. And Patterson, my colleague sitting next to me on my left, went over and said, I signed that petition. Uh, so I think that, um and I would have too, to be honest, but I was only four years old at the time. Uh, but, um, I think that, um, it it somewhat highlights something that Maggie Barry actually said as well, Which was this is far too late. Uh, the apology in and itself 32 some years later, Uh, and I was thinking earlier on about, um Why that was, and [00:35:00] why that why it was too late. And was it a Was it a a factor of, um, the legislation needed to catch up with society or the other way around. Was it society need to be able to catch up, uh, to the legislation to see it through this house. Um, or was it a fact of this house, Uh, and the members of it needing to catch up with the rest of society and what they wanted originally, um, it was and it's I think it's it's one of those bills. Madam Speaker [00:35:30] that, um it has been unfortunate somewhat that it has taken so long to write its natural course even before its consideration. Uh, with the, uh, petition being presented some 30 odd years after, um, the law was had been decriminalising homosexuality, um, 2017 just last year. The bill was introduced in 2018 here today, Um, and in the process of the third reading, we hear a reiteration of the apology [00:36:00] that is much needed. Um, in the passing of this bill as well. On behalf of New Zealand, first, I'd like to congratulate this house, um, for being, um uh, collaborative and, uh, and unanimous in the support for this bill. I believe that it was, uh, Matt King, who said that when he was on the justice Committee, um, his first taste of of a bill going through was this bill, Uh, and he was bitterly disappointed. Um, that, um, other bills didn't [00:36:30] go through in such a collaborative way. He thought that that's how the all the committees worked. Um, and, um, perhaps they should in the future, um, like to congratulate, um, Amy Adams for firstly bringing it to the to the house. And, um, given the apology late last year under the national government and also the current minister as well. Um, Andrew Little for reiterating and seeing this through the house. Also, the all the members of the Justice Committee, whether they be under the national government or the current government, uh, seeing [00:37:00] this through from the second reading through to the final reading in such a speedy manner, I think one of the most important things uh, Madam Speaker, is to remember that legislation like this, um, and, um, obviously speaking about this one in particular, it's not about the law. It's not about the legislation. It's not about a piece of paper that that law legislation is written on or the words. It's actually about the people. Uh, and they are real. [00:37:30] They are real people. Um, they have real families. And the effects of of what happened to those people and their families 30 some years ago still affects them in a very, very real way. Um, and I think that it was, um, one of the important steps in the process of this bill going through the house, uh, was the committee stage, and that allowed people to submit And for us as representatives to hear those stories, whether that be from [00:38:00] people who experienced it firsthand or their loved ones who, um, were representing them. A very important part of the process of this bill going through, um, and finally, uh, Madam Speaker, I, um, going and being able to speak on this bill from the second reading forward, it's made me wonder a little bit, um, about the current laws that we have. And maybe if we look back in five years or 10 years [00:38:30] or 30 or 50 years, what laws, perhaps at that stage will look back and say, Why didn't we change it sooner? Why were we blinded Why were we misguided? Uh, and how could we have been so wrong? Uh, so I think the these types of legislation this one in particular allows, uh, members of this house to reflect on the current situation. Um, a little bit more vividly, um, and a little bit more, uh, with the greater context and the, uh, and [00:39:00] have an appreciation of who we actually represent and where society is today. New Zealand first fully supports this legislation. Madam Speaker, I call Andrew. Thank you, Madam Speaker. It's a privilege to be, uh, taking another brief speech on the criminal records Expungement of convictions for historical homosexual offences. Bill this evening. Uh, Grant Robertson earlier in the debate, uh, spoke about the number of challenges that are ahead of us and I think laid down a challenge to us as parliamentarians [00:39:30] to continue the fight that many parliamentarians have fought over, uh, over over many generations and decades. I was born in 1983. Nearly all of my life homosexual acts between consenting adults have been legal. And I look around the house and I see the Chloe SWR. I see the car and I see the Chris bishops and I like to think the future is in pretty good hands. During the second reading, uh, I spoke about the profound impact that convictions, uh, have had on the men that have carried [00:40:00] them unjustly for many years. After that speech, I was contacted by a man in my electorate who had a different story, but one that I think is important. Nonetheless, he told me about growing up in New Zealand in the 19 sixties and seventies and the as a as a young gay man and the impact that the law had on him. He was never arrested, never charged and never convicted. But it did affect him. It affected him because he said that the law said to him [00:40:30] that what he was was wrong, what he was was immoral and what he was was illegal. And so when he eventually came out to his parents to his family, they shunned him. That might have happened regardless of the legality. But to have the government essentially back that position is what hurt him and continues to hurt him the most. He's only just reconciled with his sister [00:41:00] and mother. After many years of being apart I accept that the legislation that we're passing tonight won't do anything for him. It won't do anything to say that what he went through was wrong. But he asked if I would tell his story. Madam Speaker, I said during during an earlier speech that every member of this parliament should be proud to see this law pass. We should. But I'm pleased that speakers tonight have also acknowledged [00:41:30] the wrong that the law placed on the men that affected this is the right thing to do. It goes as far as we can to remove the black stain that this country has on its history, and I commend it to the house. Take care. I called Jan Logie. Thank you, Madam Speaker. It's a huge honour for me to again be able to stand and speak on behalf of the Green Party in support of this legislation and um to note Georgina by [00:42:00] sitting in the house as well. It's as it seems, appropriate for a piece of legislation that is so significant and when she's been at the leader, um, up front on many of these issues in our community and in this house, I also want to specifically thank and the 2000 other petition signees and the campaign group Pardon gaze and a for all of their work getting us to this [00:42:30] point, um presented the green Party MP Kevin Hague with the petition petition. That was the immediate catalyst, Um, first for the apology and this legislation to enable men convicted of indecency between males of sodomy or of keeping places of resort for homosexual activities, which I always thought sounds like quite a good time. Um, to be able to apply in writing [00:43:00] for the secretary of justice to have their criminal record expunged. And it wasn't a matter of chance that, uh, Kevin Hague received the petition. He had previously unsuccessfully, I might say, approached the prime minister to for justice um, seeking such legislation. And, um, he did this because Kevin was an out gay man in the 19 eighties, living under the cloud of these oppressive laws and [00:43:30] campaigning for decriminalisation. He was one of those men who put his life at risk for this campaign and for our collective well-being. And he knew well many men who had their lives destroyed by these convictions, or even just the threat of such a conviction. So while I certainly need to acknowledge the previous minister of Justice, Amy Adams, for bringing this bill and the current minister, Andrew [00:44:00] Little, for seeing it to third reading so expeditiously, I do want to acknowledge Kevin Hague and de as significant forces behind this significant piece of legislation. It was the parliaments of the early 19 hundreds that introduced or legalised homophobia in this country. Those laws overrode indigenous laws, which held that both [00:44:30] same sex attraction and diverse gender identities and expressions were natural. That was the state status quo before the government introduced legislation to legalise homophobia and hatred. So it is our job to remove the harm from the laws that were created by this place and to apologise because it was harm [00:45:00] that we created from this house. And I do think it is worth following on from some of the other reflections and to take a moment to feel some satisfaction in how uncontested this legislation has been. It is encouraging that we've progressed so far since some homosexual law reform in 1986 when so many New Zealanders seemed [00:45:30] to believe that homosexuals, gays, lesbians, bisexuals were an abomination to God were mentally ill, that we were sexual perverts and all paedophiles. Those views, though, were a reflection of the legislative status quo of the time of those laws that had been introduced in the early 19 hundreds. [00:46:00] Those views that we now um, recall with a slight sense of horror, reflected the law. The law reinforced those beliefs and through the process of the petition and then the select committee hearings on the bill, we have heard again how many lives were ruined by those laws. And we've heard the experiences of men [00:46:30] who were convicted and men who were not convicted but had their lives made small when they could have been huge. And we heard of people isolated and stigmatised and beaten and abused because of these laws and these convictions. And we know that people have died and sadly still in some cases, continue to die because of homophobia. [00:47:00] This legislation that we are now seeking to expunge the convictions that were a result of legitimised the view that homosexuality was a mental illness and this ended up seeing people hospitalised and electrocuted and tortured by our state as a result of being who they were and loving who they loved. We need to remove the convictions [00:47:30] and the shame from these innocent men who suffered horribly because of the decisions of Parliament to criminalise them. Many gay and bisexual men lived in constant fear of being discovered. Many did things they were not proud of to try and protect themselves. This legislation can't fix it all. There were famous incidents. A previously [00:48:00] incredibly popular mayor of Whanganui was given 15 years of hard labour for attempted murder after shooting another gay man who was attempting to blackmail him. This incident led and the media around it to many gay men and bisexual men leaving the country, as we've heard described already. It was a common situation for men to leave and go over to another country to escape [00:48:30] the homophobia here. And this mayor's conviction, um, will not be expunged by this legislation. Obviously, it's not covering attempted murder. Um, but I hope the apology and this debate around this legislation does extend to remove the shame and blame from all the men and their families affected by this legislation directly and indirectly, and also to [00:49:00] note that well respected closet new Zealand author who was given a suspended sentence in return for giving evidence that sentenced an older gay man to six years of hard labour for being gay, who never ever mentioned that incident again. Because of the shame, we can only assume of feeling responsible for that man's conviction and pain. [00:49:30] So do those men who were criminalised and irreparably hurt and who have been left, in the words of one submitter with quote, self hatred, worthlessness, unjustified guilt and shame. Unquote, I want to repeat that the shame belongs with this parliament and our society for robbing you of your inherent and inalienable right [00:50:00] to be who you are and love who you love. We cannot undo the damage, but I hope that today represents another step towards healing for you and for us as a society and has been noted by previous speakers. We do this homophobia. When you pass the law and decriminalise it does not disappear. We still [00:50:30] feel it in our schools and in our communities and in people's lives, and I will echo the words of Grant Robinson on saying the only reason I can understand that we have not ensured access to basic healthcare and basic legal rights for people. Uh, transgender people can only to my mind, be a result of the outstanding impact of these laws. And we in this house need to make [00:51:00] that connection to be able to move forward. It is not enough to say sorry. And to enable people to get the convictions wiped out, we need to wipe out homophobia and transphobia from every part of our society. And I am proud and the green party to stand in this house in one of those moments. We are where we are making a united commitment to do that. [00:51:30] Madam Speaker, I call Matt King. It's a real pleasure to take this, uh, call on this third reading of the, uh, expungement of of convictions for historical homosexual offences. Bill, um, I I've got to acknowledge, um, Amy Honourable Amy Adams for her work. And also, I've got to acknowledge this coalition government for taking it on and seeing it through to the end. And I'd also like to acknowledge Georgina buyer in the house today. Um, [00:52:00] now, this bill seeks to reduce the prejudice, stigma, negative lifelong effects of a conviction for historical homosexual offences. so it's about it's about being fair. It's about putting things right. It enables them to apply to have their conviction for indecency between males sodomy or keeping a place of resort or attempts to do the same to have them expunged. Now, prior to the Homosexual Law Reform Act of 1986 it was [00:52:30] a criminal offence for sexual activities between males over 16. And that fact astounds me. And I think back to 1986. What was I What was I doing in 1986? Well, I was a school leaver, and, uh, to think that when I was at school, it was an offence. Um, I struggle to believe that. But then what also surprises me is that Andrew Flo and Chris Bishop were only two or three at the time, and I thought they were a lot older than me. So So I feel positively old. [00:53:00] Those who positively old. So between 1965 and 19, 86/1000 men were convicted of indecency between males. My grandfather was a policeman during this time. He was a policeman for 30 years, knowing him as I do, I can't imagine him ever arresting someone for, um, this sort of offence. However, he's not alive today, so I can't ask him, but I would love to ask him. And if he if he did, I want to know, um I want I would understand his thinking, [00:53:30] but thankfully, we live in, uh, modern times now, and, uh, we're putting this to bed, so that's great. I was a member of the select committee and I heard some harrowing and, um, emotive submissions from some of these people. The select committee process is really important so that these people can be heard. Attitudes have changed, and I welcome that change, and the world is a better place for it. I'd like to acknowledge the brave view of Dem and over 2000 petitioners, [00:54:00] and it's pointless having offences such as these removed from the statute book without having the expungement legislation to accompany it. It's well overdue. And I'm proud to be part of a parliament that enacts this accordingly. We support this and we commend it to the house. Thank you. I call Doctor Duncan Webb. Thank you, Madam Speaker. I understand this is a split call. It is a split call I'll give you a ball [00:54:30] at one minute. Thank you, Madam Speaker, This I'd like to really start this by saying that one of my mentors in politics was, uh, Tim Barnett, a gay man who was the MP for Christchurch Central for many years. And I must acknowledge the leadership that he and many like him, uh, have really, uh, had in politics because, um as he [00:55:00] showed me the ropes and I worked within his electorate, uh, it was whilst he was clearly and openly gay and accepted that as part of his identity, it never became a defining point about how we work together. And it was simply part of the natural landscape. And I think that that's perhaps, uh, the difference, Uh, that we see today from many years ago when something like that would [00:55:30] have been, uh a huge, um, issue, Uh, a fact which would mark everything. But here today what we are saying as we pass the criminal records ex expungement of convictions for historical homosexual offences, Bill is that those things are rapidly receding in the past. And I know that, uh, this is yet another step along that road and is uh, Jan [00:56:00] Logie stated I. I don't think we've finished that road yet. There's still work to be done. And I know that even in my own electorate, uh, there are a number of trans people who are talking to me about things, aspects of the law that they see, uh, as needing attention. And I tend to agree that there's work to be done there. But it is. I do commend, uh, Amy Adams for listening. Um, and even though there [00:56:30] were significant technical hurdles for introducing this bill into the house, um, for Andrew Little for picking it up, uh, for the select committee for doing such a good job, uh, with the work that they had ahead of them. And it must be said that, you know, for a lawyer, the concept of expungement is important. Um, it's not simply, uh um, a pardon. It's not saying that although you have a conviction [00:57:00] by some kind of prerogative of mercy, we are reversing that it's saying that this should never have happened, that this was a wrong and this is yet another occasion upon. And I think it's good to see politics moving into an age where we can apologise. We can look back and say we were wrong. The government of the day took [00:57:30] a wrong approach and we are sorry. And as Andrew Little stated, compensation may well be too hard. But I'm not sure that compensation actually meets the need of saying this should never have happened. And your record is expunged. It is wiped clean. That conviction never occurred. You never committed a crime. [00:58:00] So whilst that can be righted by law, the record can be wiped clean. There are, of course, the other aspects the much more personal aspects, the stigma and the effects of a conviction which I think we need to accept can never be put right. We cannot turn the clock back. But it is, [00:58:30] uh it is pleasing that the house has taken unanimously this step in saying these offences are ex sponged they cannot be referred to. They cannot be asked about if you travel overseas. They never existed. So whilst the impact of these convictions will no doubt last for the entire lives of the men convicted of them in terms of at least [00:59:00] the eyes of the law, they are gone. They are gone forever. And for that reason, Madam Speaker, I commend this bill to the house I call Joanne Hayes. Thank you, Madam Speaker. And I rise to take a call on the third reading of the criminal records Expungement of convictions for historical homosexual offences. Madam Speaker. And as I've been listening on the television and on the contributions in the house tonight, [00:59:30] I feel privileged to be able to speak on this third reading. Um, Madam Speaker, um, I want to, uh, thank Amy Adams, um, for taking the time, the honourable Amy Adams, for taking the time to listen to the petitioner back in the day and, um, to bring forward this bill. And I also want to thank the government, um, for picking this bill up and taking it through to fruition. Too many lives have been affected by this, um, by the convictions, [01:00:00] the wrong convictions, Madam Speaker. And, um, too many, uh, skilled people have, um, have lost out on really good, um, opportunities and employment in other areas because of the criminal conviction, the homosexual criminal conviction. Um, Madam Speaker. And so I think tonight it is a um It is a momentous time. Um, for this house to come together as one, to, finalise [01:00:30] the reading and to, um, ensure that this bill, um does, um, reach this royal assent? Um, Madam Speaker. So it is with, um heartfelt. Um heartfelt. Um, um, I I'm I'm not trying trying not to say pleasure, but it's It's my heartfelt, um, convictions that I want to stand here and and and support this third reading Madam Speaker and committing it to the house. And I want to thank everybody [01:01:00] that was involved in getting it to the stage. Thank you, Madam Speaker. I commend the bill. Thank you, Madam Speaker. I call Raymond. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Uh, tonight is one of those moments that all parties come to support a bill that is intended to provide a humble but meaningful measure of restorative justice. Advocates have long called for convictions for, uh, historical [01:01:30] homosexual offences to be expunged. And tonight, um, we will see that a not wrong is finally to be Write it. I regard it as kind of a privilege to be able to not only witness the parliamentary debates, but also be part of the process as chair of the Justice committee. I can report that this bill was the very first bill [01:02:00] that the committee reported back to the house. On that note, I think it is fitting for me to thank all the members past and present for their contributions. I thank in particular, uh, the Minister, the honourable Andrew Little for making this bill one of the government's priorities. I thank the then Minister of Justice, the honourable Amy Adams, for initiating this process and this bill in 2017. [01:02:30] I thank also, uh, our officials and all of the submitters who helped make some necessary but important amendments to better reflect the intent of this bill. The purpose of this bill is to remove the stigma, prejudice and other negative effects arising from, uh, the conviction of historical homosexual offences. [01:03:00] This bill is the first, uh, of this type in New Zealand, the law which indicates, uh, the extraordinary nature of this kind of historical offences, uh, which were decriminalised by the homosexual, um reform Act 1987. No longer would men, uh, having consensual sex with each other, be liable [01:03:30] to prosecution and a term of imprisonment no longer. The man in that situation. Would it be subject to the specific offences under the Crimes Act 1961 or the Crimes Act 19 08. I acknowledge all those people who are behind the Homosexual Law Reform Act in 1986 the campaign to reform the law moved beyond the gay community [01:04:00] to wider issues of human rights and the discrimination in that regard. I believe it is fitting, if I may, to extend the apology to all LGBT community. Now, members of all parties have made uh, moving speeches, acknowledging the wrongs that have been done to the affected parties and their families. Those prosecuted [01:04:30] have faced and just travel restrictions and difficulty gaining employment for decades in terms of the employment and the likely impact under this bill. I particularly thank, uh, community law in Wellington and Lower Heart and all other submitters with regard to the detailed analysis and the eventual removal of Section [01:05:00] 13 sub two. To ensure the employment opportunities for those affected parties would not be jeopardised on the bill's third reading, it is important for us to reflect on some important issues. Like other members who spoke before me have acknowledged the first, uh, of such kind of an issue is compensation, and some submits raised concerns that this bill has not [01:05:30] gone far enough and claimed that lack of compensation could be seen as a potential breach of the gear principle. Some submitters, uh, also raised the possibility that the establishment of a charitable trust similar to the charitable trust would go some way to help address the issue. Now. The poll tax was a kind of A tax [01:06:00] uh imposed on the early Chinese immigrants between 18 81 to 1944. Only the Chinese people were forced to pay as much as £100 then the equivalent of about 10 years work to come to New Zealand in 2002. The Prime Minister Helen Clark apologised on behalf of the parliament [01:06:30] to the Chinese community over the racially discriminatory legislation, and the uh charitable trust has subsequently been established. And this year, during the Chinese New Year celebration at Parliament, the trust launched a new book entitled The Fruits of Our Labels, which uncovered the forgotten world of that part of the Chinese history in New Zealand. Now [01:07:00] back to this bill, I acknowledge contributions from submits and all members who spoke earlier. And I agree and note that in terms of compensation, we should keep the conversation open. As far as this bill is concerned, compensation goes beyond the scope of this bill. There is no general principle that a person who is convicted of a repealed, uh offence is entitled [01:07:30] to compensation on the repeal of that particular offence. Clause 22 of the bill does not limit other measures. And the Bill of Rights Act 1990 which protects the individual's right to issue civil proceedings against the crown and further Clause 22 does not, uh, exclude other rights to compensation which may be pursued under [01:08:00] the existing legislation. So this policy initiative aligns with the approach in comparable overseas jurisdictions. It also makes a clear distinction between, uh, convictions that were wrong at law and convictions for offences, uh, that have been repealed in the case of the convictions for historical homosexual offences. Uh, there is no suggestion that [01:08:30] these convictions were wrongfully imposed as the war at that time. Uh, with the with the law at that time, Madam Speaker Clause nine confirms the effect of, uh, the expungement, the person with the expunged conviction is entitled to, uh, to declare that they have no such, uh, conviction. And the conviction will be removed from any [01:09:00] criminal, uh, check, uh, for any purpose in New Zealand in, um in response to a question or to a question from an overseas jurisdiction will depend on the actual wording of that question. For instance, if an official or an individual are asked whether an individual has ever been convicted of an offence in New Zealand, they would [01:09:30] declare that they have. But if the question is is whether the individual has any convictions, they would answer No, because the convictions and any criminal records arising from that have been expunged and have no, um and no longer have any effect in New Zealand for any purpose. Lastly, Madam Speaker, I'd like to touch upon the relationship with other laws, not [01:10:00] the criminal records. Kling Slate Act 2004. That, uh, clean slate act is designed to allow individuals with less serious convictions and and who have been convicted conviction free for a long time to conceal their convictions in most circumstances. But there are exceptions. The key difference is that while clean is temporary and the concealed officers can be [01:10:30] revealed again. For instance, uh, under the, uh uh um, uh, vulnerable Children's act. The expungement bill does not permit the disclosure, uh, for any purpose in New Zealand. So this bill is intended to provide a humble but meaningful, uh, measure of restorative justice. I can manage this bill to the house. I call Andrew Bailey. [01:11:00] Thank you, Madam Speaker. Uh, it's my pleasure to be talking on the criminal records. Expungement of convictions for historical homosexual offences. Third reading, Madam Speaker. Tonight's one of those rare opportunities where we in Parliament come together to right or wrong, And it's actually rather nice to be sitting and just listening to the thoughtful, careful and at times moving speeches [01:11:30] from many members of the House in dealing with this issue and discussing it in full. I wasn't a member of the Justice Select Committee that heard all the, um, different submissions, but I do know that they were a particularly hard working committee. And I also want to acknowledge honourable Amy Adams for introducing this bill to the house, but also the honourable Andrew Little for, uh, pursuing it and seeing it through to fruition. [01:12:00] This bill is about the expungement of criminal offences. And what the word expungement means is that the conviction will no longer appear on on any criminal history check, and people will be entitled to declare that they have no such conviction. Now. Exp punishment goes beyond the, um, rights that, uh, go with a concealing a conviction under the [01:12:30] Clean Slate Act of 2004 under the clean slate bill or act, a concealed conviction may still be disclosed in certain a certain circumstances. But what this bill does do, um, Mr Speaker, is it places rules on agencies in particular about holding personal information and making sure that, um, men with such convictions are are are no longer [01:13:00] available to be, um, disclosed. In fact, out and no such information can be held. And so, Mr Speaker I, I want to congratulate all those who started out on this journey. Um, we've heard about some of them tonight, Fran Wild. Um and I acknowledge, uh, georginia by, uh, sitting here in the chair tonight, uh, to my right, Mr Speaker, But, um, it's also a journey that, uh, many people have been involved in. And, [01:13:30] uh, I also hoping that my good friends from my electorate, um, Mr Jeff Smith and his partner, John Fleet, are watching this, Um, as this bill comes to a fruition tonight, uh, Mr Speaker, because I think it's, um, a wonderful opportunity to be part of this to be able to see this bill through to its fruition and see it pass unanimous unanimously, which I hope will happen very shortly. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. [01:14:00] I call Lewis a war. It is my pleasure to speak on the third reading of the criminal records expungement of convictions for historical homosexual offences. Bill and I thought I'd take us through, uh, a bit of a history lesson. And I want to start with, uh, a quote from the kale. Uh, kaleidoscope trust speaking out the rights of LGBT citizens from across the commonwealth. And [01:14:30] it reads, As with the abolition of slavery, the decriminalisation of homosexuality in our time must be an act of law. And I want to quote from Sir John Wolfenden, uh, when he urged Britain in 1957 and he said unless a deliberate attempt is made by society acting through the agency of the law to equate the sphere of crime with that of sin, there must remain a realm of private [01:15:00] morality and immorality, which is in brief in crude terms, not the law's business. Uh, and, uh, this particular, uh, publication, which was published in 2005, ends with a conclusion for by, uh, Ram. And it says, and I quote that that was a must now inspire us in the countries of the Commonwealth to rid ourselves of this archaic legal inheritance. We [01:15:30] are here to call for that decriminalising act of law, and by it an end to the wrong we do to our brothers and sisters who like us all members of what Dr Rowan Williams, the former Archbishop of Canterbury, called the Commonwealth of God. And I want to reference that because in fact, uh, at the moment there are 72 countries in the world where being LGBTI Q means you're a criminal. Uh, there are [01:16:00] 13 countries in the world currently, uh, where if you are LGBTI Q, the punishment is death. And unfortunately, of those 72 countries, 36 of those countries are commonwealth countries. So that's 50% of the countries in the world that criminalise homosexuals are commonwealth countries. So our experience of the criminalization of homosexuality started 100 and 51 years ago, Uh, with the 18 67 offences [01:16:30] against the person act and it was in that year that the punishment ceased to be execution, but it actually was, uh, imprisonment for life. And so, 100 and 51 years later, I think I stand here proudly as a member of this house, uh, to end what I am going to label a crime against humanity. And I label it a crime against humanity by definition, because it's acts that are deliberately committed as part [01:17:00] of a widespread or systemic attack or individual attack directed against any civilian or an identifiable part of a civilian population. Uh, which is the International Lesbian, Gay, bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association? Uh, released a report last year. It's quite thick, and it's titled State sponsored Homophobia. And so we are here today because we are ending the remnants [01:17:30] of state sponsored sponsored homophobia. I would like to thank uh, win Dimick who in July 2016, uh, with MP Kevin Hague presented a petition to Parliament that has resulted in an apology. And I want to acknowledge the honourable Amy Adams, uh, for that apology. And it also called for legislation that expunges convictions for homosexuals doing what homosexuals [01:18:00] do, which is making love to other homosexuals. We do do other things. But in fact, uh, that's what we were criminalised for for loving the person that we chose to be with. Now the definition of expungement is a process by which record of criminal conviction is destroyed or sealed. And then we treat this convic this conviction as it as if it had never occurred. And for [01:18:30] me, that is the beauty of this piece of legislation. Because we are saying that homosexuality being a crime, people going to jail, people being punished should never have occurred. But this legislative reform, actually, uh, began with a petition in the UK in 2009 by John Graham Cumming and John Graham. Cumming wanted an official apology for Alan Turing. We all know who Alan Turing [01:19:00] is. He broke the German Enigma code. He was convicted in 1952 for being a homosexual man who engaged in consensual homosexual acts with a 19 year old man. What happened to Alan Turing? Alan Turing had to choose between going to prison or being chemically castrated. He chose to be chemically castrated. And in 1954 at the age of 41 years, he committed suicide. [01:19:30] And so John Graham coming, wrote to the Queen, and he wanted a posthumous knighthood for Alan Turing. And so, on the ninth of September 2009, the prime minister of England, Gordon Brown, apologised to Alan Turing. And in 2007, that apology was extended to all homosexuals convicted of consensual homosexual con conduct, which in the UK is between 50,000 [01:20:00] and 100,000 men. Now what they said about was a process that actually I'm really proud. New Zealand, uh, is at the forefront of with Australia. So South Australia, New South Wales, Victoria AC, T, Tasmania. They have all enacted expungement legislation, and tonight we also join Canada, and we join Germany in every jurisdiction. [01:20:30] We've issued an apology and the importance of the apo. That apology, I don't think can be underestimated because, as I pointed out earlier, we should never have been criminals and we should never have endured, I guess the legacy of that. What? What that criminality said to ourselves and also said to society, I do want to highlight that in other jurisdictions, they have actually compensated people in [01:21:00] Canada. They created an $85 million fund to compensate individuals. Uh, and just recently, I'm not sure if you know this Grant They've actually, um, settled a class action because people who were in the military and people who were federal employees lost their careers. And so Canada has $100 million fund to compensate those who are criminalised for being themselves. Plus, they have a $250,000 fund for community projects to combat [01:21:30] homophobia. And in 2019 in Canada will be the 50th anniversary of homosexual law reform in Germany. Uh, they had 100 and 50,000 people who are criminalised for being homosexuals. 5000 are still living, So they have engaged in a personal compensation process. €3000 as a base payment and €1500 for every year spent in prison. Uh, I've actually just come back from [01:22:00] Geneva. I was over there as part of the Interparliamentary Union and believe it or not, since 18 89 we have never had a debate at the IP U about LGBTI rights. And so, of the 162 member nations, we actually had a forum where we were able to talk about LGBTI rights. And the outcome of that process in Geneva was a vote [01:22:30] 31 4, 26 against and at the next IP U. For the first time in its history, they will actually have a panel and discuss the rights of LGBTI peoples in the role of Parliament. Uh, in ending this apparent discrimination perpetrated by the state, I'm incredibly proud to come from a country and a parliament that after 100 and 51 years of colonisation, lest we forget, [01:23:00] these laws came from our coloniser. This is part of our colonial history, and it's incredibly interesting when you go to these IP U forums and you have, uh, the African countries and you have the Asian countries and they all talk about this being abnormal behaviour. But the reality is the condemnation of this behaviour came from England, and I believe that England is [01:23:30] a colonising power still has a lot of work to do to help us move from a world that is filled with hate to a world that's filled with love. And so I'm incredibly proud of our parliament because we've stood up for love tonight and I want to thank all those involved, uh, in bringing this piece of legislation to the house. The question is that the motion be agreed to those of that opinion [01:24:00] will say I to the contrary. No, the eyes have it. Records expungement of convictions for historical homosexual offences Bill Third reading. I call on government order of the day number three Residential tenancies prohibiting letting fees [01:24:30] Amendment Bill interrupted debate on first reading our members the last time that the house was considering the residential tenancy prohibiting letting the amendment Bill, the Honourable Jenny Saa had the call and she has seven minutes and 50 seconds remaining. Should she so wish to do so? Mr. Speaker, I call the honourable Jenny Sasa. Thank you, Mr Speaker. And what a night to be here in the house of Parliament and [01:25:00] a New Zealand. I want to just acknowledge all of the speakers that have spoken before me on the previous bill, How wonderful it is to be here tonight and to see that we, as members of Parliament, can actually unanimously agree on this legislation on doing what is right. Mr. Speaker, thank you for this opportunity to speak on the residential tenancies prohibiting letting fees amendment bill.

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TITLE: Parliament: committee stage of the Criminal Records (Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences) Bill
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VOICES: Adrian Rurawhe; Alfred Ngaro; Andrew Little; Barbara Kuriger; Clare Curran; Darroch Ball; Duncan Webb; Ginny Andersen; Greg O'Connor; Hamish Walker; Kiritapu Allan; Kris Faafoi; Matt King; Poto Williams; Priyanca Radhakrishnan; Raymond Huo; Trevor Mallard; Tāmati Coffey
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; 2010s; Adrian Rurawhe; Alfred Ngaro; Amy Adams; Andrew Little; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Australia; Barbara Kuriger; Bill of Rights Act (1990); Clare Curran; Crimes Act (1908); Crimes Act (1961); Criminal Records (Clean Slate) Act (2004); Criminal Records (Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences) Act 2018; Darroch Ball; Duncan Webb; Ginny Andersen; Greg O'Connor; Hamish Walker; Historic Convictions; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Justice Committee; Kiritapu Allan; Kris Faafoi; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Matt King; Member of Parliament; National Party; New Zealand Labour Party; New Zealand Police; Poto Williams; Priyanca Radhakrishnan; Public Records Act (2005); Raymond Huo; Secretary for Justice; Statistics New Zealand; Trevor Mallard; Tāmati Coffey; United Kingdom; Vulnerable Children Act (2014); Wales; Wellington; Wiremu Demchick; Yogyakarta Principles (2006); buggery; compensation; concealed conviction; consensual sex; consent; convictions; crime; criminal background check; criminal history; criminal record; criminalisation; decriminalisation; discrimination; expungement; family; fear; gay; gender identity; homosexual; homosexual law reform; indecent act; law; legislation; marae; mental health; pardon; petition; petition on historic convictions; police; prejudice; select committee; sexual orientation; stigma; tangi; transexual; transgender; trauma; unnatural offence; whānau
DATE: 28 March 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the committee stage of the Criminal Records (Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences) Bill. It was introduced into Parliament by the Justice Minister Amy Adams on 6 July 2017. It is the first expungement scheme to be created in New Zealand. The Bill was reported back to the House without amendment. The report was then unanimously adopted.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Criminal records Expungement of Convictions for historical Homosexual offences Bill Committee stage I declare the House and Committee for consideration of the criminal Records Expungement of convictions for historical homosexual offences Bill Madam Chair Mr. Speaker, Members of the house is in committee for consideration of the criminal records Expungement of convictions for historical homosexual offences Bill, the question [00:00:30] is that part one stand part I called Allen Um Madam Chair I seek leave for all provisions of the criminal records Expungement of conviction for historical homosexual offences Bill to be taken as one debate leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There appears to be none. The question is that Parts one and two schedules one and two and clauses one and two stand part [00:01:00] Madam Cheer I call, uh, madam Chair. It's an absolute delight to be able to take a call. Uh, in regards to the, um criminal records of expungement of convictions for the historical, um, homosexual offences Bill Um uh a and in particular, uh, for this reading, Uh, for this, um, debate this committee [00:01:30] of the whole house debate. Uh, Madam Chair, um, and having regard to this very significant and important. Um, uh uh, Bill that I'm proud to see that there is universal and widespread agreement across the house for the, uh, the the ethos that underpins that That does expunge those that were convicted under our previous law, Uh, for the simple act of being able to [00:02:00] love somebody. Ah, Madam chair. Um, Now, I just have a couple of questions, uh, for, uh, the minister in regards to, um, some of the finer details of the bill. Uh, Madam Chair, um, now the general effects of expungement. Um, II. I wanted to understand, uh, with a conviction. Uh, for an expungement under New Zealand [00:02:30] law would have a a broader purpose. Um, uh uh, When When members, Uh, sorry. When people who had been convicted under the previous law where they would be required to disclose, uh, still be required to disclose, Uh, those, uh, former convictions in any overseas jurisdictions. Um, And whether that was universal across the board. So I just, um I want to understand [00:03:00] that, uh uh, and if the minister could step us through that a little bit, um, image here. I, I guess for me from on a personal note, Um you know, a couple of weeks ago, my, um My, my, um Uncle Darcy, uh, he was my Nana's youngest brother. He, um he passed away, but he was, um he he went, he he moved from our and, uh, as a young man moved up to, um, Auckland, the [00:03:30] the city of bright lights to live a life. Um, that in our small town wasn't, um wasn't viewed with much favour, and, uh, at his at his funeral, there was a range of people that came, uh, that talked about the lifestyle of the queens. Uh, that lived up in Auckland, which my uncle was very heavily involved in in that community. And, uh, as they gave these stories, um, both inside the [00:04:00] and outside of the, uh, outside, uh, that they spoke of the the weight of what? It was to be a young man, uh, as they were, uh, some of them, um, in constant fear of hiding from the law, uh, being disconnected from their families. And they spoke about the impacts of being able to, uh, travel universally. Well, actually, just to just to live their life actually and get jobs, decent jobs, and, uh, without having [00:04:30] to make disclosures of those, um, of those criminal offences. Yeah, just because of the fact that, uh, they they loved, uh uh uh. They love somebody of the same sex. So that was a topic that was very much a part of discussion at my, uh, my uncle Darcy. And so if the minister might be so kind to, um, just give some, uh, update for those that might be watching this debate at home and and also for myself, uh, to understand exactly [00:05:00] what the nature and extent of expungement, uh, of those domestic, uh, convictions will mean here, um, for those members living outside the country. Thank you, madam Chair. I call a rash. Thank you, Madam Chair. Um, there are some bills that we debate in this house that that strikes straight at the heart of people's lived existence. People's suffering, fear and hurt and gives us an opportunity to remedy that. And this bill really [00:05:30] does that. Um, I just also want to say that it was an absolute privilege to be part of the select committee that, um um that went through this bill that heard public submissions to this bill and actually worked very well together to make some amendments to part of this bill, which I will go through today as well. So I just want to, uh, firstly, thank the the former minister, um, the honourable Amy Adams for her work on this, the current minister, [00:06:00] the Honourable Andrew Little, uh, for his work on this and my colleagues on the select committee. And of course, those who submitted to this bill as well. We heard some very emotive and very emotional submissions. And I want to acknowledge that, um, part one of this bill, uh, looks at basically, uh, the purpose of of this act. What? What does this act do This The reason that we're here today, and, um, this goes back to the way I began. Actually, um, for those of us in this [00:06:30] house, there is immense power here to impact people's lives. It's a little bit like fire. Sometimes we don't get it right, and it ruins people's lives completely, and sometimes we have the opportunity to remedy it. Now the Crimes Act 1961 and its predecessor in 19 08 criminalised sexual activity between males 16 years and over between that time and 1986 when the Homosexual Law Reform [00:07:00] Act decrimi decriminalised the same activity. We saw a number of people who were caught in a space where just being themselves meant that they were they became criminals or were deemed criminals by society. According to the Department of Statistics. Between that time period, nearly 1000 men were convicted of indecency between males. About 100 and 38 of them had a sentence of imprisonment, and many others either had fines [00:07:30] or community based sentences as well. Quite apart from that was the abject fear that they lived in of law enforcement agencies. The stigma that they suffered. Young men who were thrown out of home for being homosexual, um, huge implications on their health, their mental health. And so this bill puts that gives us an opportunity if passed. To put that straight, it also sends a really clear signal to future generations of young people in the LGBT Q I community [00:08:00] as well. So what does it do? The purpose of this act is to reduce to address that stigma, that prejudice that the young men who were convicted have faced because it's all well and good for us to say post 1986 that this is no longer criminal, but it's a whole different matter for it. Still to be on people's criminal records when they, um either apply for a job or are considered for any position or status of some sort. So this addresses that issue. Um, [00:08:30] it enables an application for expungement of the conviction to be made under this act, uh, parts of the act that I will get into, uh, shortly sort of outline. Who's eligible to make the application? Um, whether it's the person who's been convicted themselves or someone acting on their behalf as well. And actually, both are eligible to, um to apply for a for an expungement, and I'll go into that a little bit. But one also looks at the interpretation. [00:09:00] The definitions. Who does this apply to, um and how? And it lays that out quite quite clearly. I just want to draw your attention, Madam Chair to Clause to Clause four and those who are watching as well. Um, as an example of the types of, um, issues we debated, uh, in a lot of depth, actually, at select committee. So um, for example, criminal record of a conviction for a historical offence. Um, initially in the act, uh, it it was was written down as, [00:09:30] um uh, an official record. We've changed that. Or suggested select committee suggested that that be changed to a public record. So that it So that we align the definition better with section four of the Public Records Act. Um, 2005. There are a few other, um, changes in clause four as well. That will give a better meaning to, uh, the expungement per se. Uh, the other part of, um, part one, of course, is the definition of [00:10:00] historical homosexual offences, and it's quite specific as to who can apply. So what sorts of convictions must a person, um, have had in order to be eligible to apply for this madam chair? Thank you. So, um, so it it lays out in in clause five. So basically, there is the time period that I laid out at this at the start. That's between 19 08 and 1986. So from the start of the Crimes Act, that criminalised [00:10:30] such behaviour right through to 1986 with the homosexual Reform Law Reform Act that decriminalised the same behaviour. So that's the time period within which people who have had such a historical, um, conviction can apply for the expungement. The other relevant part that's outlined in Clause four and I'll, I'll, I'll just read this bit because it's quite detailed. Uh, the sections that have been repealed the specific sections of the Crimes Act that have been repealed, [00:11:00] um, are section 1 41 and that deals with indecency between Male so that Section 1 41 of the Crimes Act 1961 Section two. Sorry, Section 142 Deals with Sodomy Section 1 46. Keeping place of resort for homosexual Acts, Section 153. Unnatural offence of the Crimes Act 19 08. So that's the predecessor act, but only to the extent that the section covers committing buggery with any other male [00:11:30] human being section in 154. Attempt to commit unnatural offence so similar to the previous one, but an attempt rather than the actual offence being committed as well. So people within that time frame who were convicted under any of those sections five sections that I've outlined will be eligible to apply for the expungement of that conviction. Um, now, this also applies to those who might [00:12:00] have passed on since that time, so they may not be able to apply in person, but a representative someone from their family perhaps can apply on their behalf as well. And I'll just, um, at this point draw attention to the fact that some submitters at, uh, select committee, um, alluded to the fact that potentially this act should go a little bit further, Um, and apply an automatic expungement, um, to everyone who so those 1000 people, perhaps [00:12:30] that we have details for, um who would be eligible, but that that was considered by select committee. But the advice that was received was that that blanket or automatic expungement actually might leave a few people out. So, um, a proactive application for expungement was actually better and meant that people could, um, we potentially included more people in that. The other point to note, of course, is that, um, these convictions actually brought about a lot of trauma [00:13:00] for those who who were convicted. And so it's not everybody who would want to be, uh we want to have to revisit that trauma as well. And an automatic expungement might put people in that position. So instead of that, it was better that people applied if they wanted an expungement. Now, part two is the test for expungement. Um, so who's eligible? Now? We've gone through the, um, the time period and the specific convictions under the two Crimes Act. I've also mentioned that the that [00:13:30] the person themselves or a representative, and that's in clause eight, part two of the act. Now the test is that the conduct constituting the offence if engaged in now, so when the application is made, would not constitute an offence. So basically, what we're saying is we had a law back then that criminalised people just being who they were, we don't think that was right. And if the conduct that they engage in at the time actually happened [00:14:00] today, they wouldn't be convicted. So that's pretty much the test, which then rules out, for example, uh, cases of rape, uh, cases where there was no consent. That would have been an offence back then, Also because it was, uh, between males. Um, that part of it would no longer hold under current law, but the lack of consent would so those that fall into that category, this act clarifies, uh, would not would not fall into or that would [00:14:30] not be expunged. Basically, that particular conviction would not be so. Part two of the act lays out quite clearly the instances in which it would not, um, the the conviction would not be expunged. There are also parts, um, in part two, that that basically says that a status cannot be refused or revoked. So basically a person who has an expunged conviction, um, should not be disqualified on that grounds for employment or [00:15:00] for any other, uh, appointment or post so quite detailed. Um, uh, in the act. I have a question, though, for the minister. And that's around compensation that came out, uh, in the select committee as to why that wasn't part of this act. Uh, it would be good to get clarity. Thank you. Thank you. Um, First of all, uh, I'd like to acknowledge, uh, the members of the Justice Select Committee that are here today, including the chair. Ramon and I'd like to acknowledge that the great work done on this [00:15:30] by the Honourable Amy, Amy Adams. And also, I'd like to acknowledge the honourable Andrew Little for taking it on. Um, now, But I was on the put on the Justice Select Committee. Um, when I first became an MP, which is only a few months ago, and, uh, I I was learning about how select committees work. And I thought that, um, listening to dealing with this particular case was the way select committees operate. And I didn't realise that it's not always the case, um, this important piece of legislation [00:16:00] I'm proud to have served on it. And I found that the whole select committee across parties supported this and and quite frankly, it's a it's a it's a no-brainer to support in anyway, Very collegial manner that we dealt with it. Um, and And what I found was that select committee members brought, um, their own life experiences to the, um, to the discussion. And, uh, and in particular, we had Jenny Anderson, who's got a background with police and intelligence and, uh, and justice. And we also [00:16:30] had the the dinosaur up there, Um, Greg O'Connor. 30 years in the police, um, and huge amounts of invaluable experience and I say that quite fondly. Um, so he brought a lot to the table. Um, And also, uh, the officials that are here today also bought, uh, their contribution. And so, uh, we all work together, and we we I think we got a good result. Um, now, one of the things we argued about or talked about actually discussed. We didn't argue. We talked about [00:17:00] it was what the definition of, um, sponging would be or what would literally it would mean. Would it mean that, um, on the computer screen, it said that the conviction and then it had the word expunge by it or did Did it mean that, uh, that there was no reference to what the conviction was? And it was just said expunge and the the officials came back with, um the what? They believed it would be the way to deal with it. Um, and that was just to have the word expunge. But from our experiences [00:17:30] in the police and and others, we felt that any reference on that computer screen to that could identify what That what it was, uh, would defeat the purpose. Uh, so then the officials came back to us and said, Well, why don't we just make it an offence to disclose whatever it was on the screen, But I have to hark back to an experience or my experience when I was in the police, was that, um and it doesn't relate to this particular thing, but it relates it is along the similar lines. And that was, uh, a school [00:18:00] teacher that came to the area. And, um, he he had he had a, uh some some convictions. Um, just a minor one very minor one. And people within the courthouse, uh, is a small town. And people within the courthouse, um, had access to that information and and disclosed, and it caused them a lot of problems. Very minor stuff, nothing to do with this, but it caused them problems. So from my own experience, I felt that, um, the computer record itself had [00:18:30] to have no reference, um, in there, otherwise it would defeat the purpose. And, uh, I believe that's where we've gone with it. So, um, that's my contribution. I have to say it was a pleasure to be part of the team. I'm no longer no on that select committee. I've been moved to transport infrastructure, but it was a pleasure to be on that team. Um, it's a pleasure to be part of this, uh, process. And I recommend it to the house. The honourable Andrew Little. Thank you, madam Chair. And thank you. Members, too. For your contribution. So far, uh, to, uh, Mr [00:19:00] King, it's It's good for members, um, and legislation like this to be able to bring their personal experiences. And it's for that reason that the bill specifically provides not only for the expungement and whatever nature that takes, but actually that subsequent disclosure by an official of a conviction that, uh, uh has been expunged, um, or to lead to consequences, too. So, um, it was good to be able to bring that insight. Um, can I just come to a couple of the the questions that have been raised? Uh uh, by [00:19:30] members so far? So, um, asked a couple of questions. One about the extent of expungement and the other about what is disclosed. So, in relation to the extent of expungement, the bill is pretty clear. The specified offences, uh, which have led to a conviction. Um, those are expunged from the record. But if somebody has or is convicted of an offence such as disorderly behaviour [00:20:00] that might relate to the same sort of conduct that would otherwise have led to those other offences, the offence of disorderly behaviour will not be expunged. But then the failure to expunge that particular offence will not lead to an inference or an implication that, uh, the person making the application, um, has engaged in, uh ho a homosexual offence and therefore subject to the discrimination that might be associated [00:20:30] with that on the issue of of what is disclosed and particularly in relation to, uh, dealing with overseas bodies and organisations and parties, um, I think the the bill and the consideration by the committee, uh, saw that this was particularly problematic. In any event, it will come down to the sort of question that is asked. So if the question is, do you have a relevant conviction or a conviction? [00:21:00] And in this case, a conviction under this bill has been expunged, then the person is quite free to say no. There is no conviction because it has been expunged. If, however, the question is, have you been arrested for an offence that will not allow the person to say no. They have not been arrested. Um, they will. They will have to disclose that they've been arrested. They will not have to disclose the offence. Um, so people do need to understand that particular [00:21:30] limitation. Um, I'm thankful to Rada Krishnan for her, uh, AAA of the issues that she gave. Um and she notes the in a sense, arbitrary date about or around which the historical offending is, uh is limited. And it is offences after the fourth of August 19. 08, because it deals with the legislation. The first legislation that provided for these offences, which was the legislation [00:22:00] that took effect from the Fourth of August 19. 08. And then subsequently the Crimes Act 1961. Obvious question is, why wouldn't you go, uh, to a period early than 19 08. And I think the committee made a pretty pragmatic conclusion, which was that it is most unlikely that there would even be descendants who would be concerned enough about convictions made before 19 08 be able to warrant the system to be able to accommodate that. And so yes, the cut off date, uh, back [00:22:30] to 19. 08 is arbitrary. But I think there are good reasons for that in terms of the specific question that, uh, Ms Rada krishnan raised, which is why compensation has not been provided for. And I think it was pretty clear from a policy point of view. And I think this committee discovered it was just going to be too problematic. And I think it is true also to say that there are mixed views within, uh, the community about whether compensation is warranted or justified. Um, and And even [00:23:00] if you did want to work out a compensation regime, how would that work? What are you compensating or what is the extent of compensation? And in the end, I think what is what most of the matters raised was, uh, in order to remove the stigma associated with a conviction for these offences. That or the conduct that is no longer regarded as a criminal offence, it is removing the record of that offence. And that is the right outcome to achieve, Um, rather than trying to come up with a complex arrangement for, [00:23:30] uh, for compensation. Uh, so on that note, Madam chair. Happy to answer those questions. And I look forward to the ongoing discussion I call Raymond. I chair. Um I was late in returning to the debating chamber to take my call because, uh, honourable, uh, honourable, uh, bar and I had a joined a meeting with the clerk of the justice committee. So it is very fitting for me to thank the clerk for his contributions. Uh, it's a very busy, uh, very effective, [00:24:00] uh, committee. And we did enjoy the work. And congratulations are in order, uh, for the minister in the chair, uh, on, uh, making this bill one of the government's priorities. And also for the then Minister of Justice, the honourable Amy Adam, uh, on putting up the bill in the first place last year. Um, at the committee of the whole house stage. It is very appropriate [00:24:30] for me to touch upon some important issues raised by members at the second reading. Those issues included, for instance, eligibility illegality, the real effect of expungement and also, as the minister just touched upon the issues around compensation. Some of these issues were difficulty ones and without [00:25:00] the input of the submitters and people in the know and without the help of the officials, we simply could not get the point of where we are now. Uh, for instance, the original Clause 13 sub clause two, could be interpreted as such that those job applicants could be seen as agreeing or consenting [00:25:30] to the disclosure of the expanded convictions. Uh, even if, uh, those sort of convictions are not relevant to the job at all. And this is not at all the intention or the purpose of this bill, uh, 13. Clause 13 2 is a difficulty one, simply because, uh it concerns with the, uh, this bill's [00:26:00] relationship with other pieces of legislation, especially the vulnerable Children's act. Having said that, I should acknowledge our officials, uh, who have, uh, done a great job. And the officials are in the debating chamber. I acknowledge their knowledge, input and level of professionalism. And also, I'd like to acknowledge and thank, uh, parliamentary council office, uh, particularly Mr [00:26:30] Ross Carter. Uh, they have always taken the optimal drafting approach, which has been reflected in the great deal in the shape of this bill, back to some important points raised by, uh, members, uh, during the second reading speech. Uh, the first one, obviously, regarding the records. Uh, because this is about the real effect [00:27:00] of the expungement. And when talking about the checks or, uh, records, there are generally two, kinds of such kind of, uh, records. One is AC MS a case management system. And the other one is, uh, criminal and traffic conviction. Uh, history report, uh, with regard to, uh, C MS case management assistant. Uh, operationally, the court record will be retained [00:27:30] in the C MS, uh, which is the court's database? A court staff member, uh, with access to C MS for the criminal jurisdiction will be able to view the records. Um, all charges are recorded in C MS. This includes a verse if they have been withdrawn by leave, dismissed, acquitted or crushed, uh, on appeal, et cetera. It would [00:28:00] be undesirable to remove expanded convictions from case management system, as this system is intended to provide a full record of all court activity. At the select committee session, we did hear submissions from those concerned about the record and the real effect of the expungement and one or two submitters risk the point given This is, uh, nature [00:28:30] and the nature of expand. And why not remove the entire thing from any such kind of record? Uh, records at all, Mr Madam Chair, Madam chair. Thank you, madam Chair. So to reinforce that sort of a view, it is it would be undesirable, uh, to remove expunged convictions from the C MS simply because this system is intended to provide a full record of all court activity. However, for the purpose of [00:29:00] this bill, um, that expunged conviction would not appear on the individual's criminal and traffic conviction. Uh, history, Uh uh, report, Uh, some submitters raised, uh, their concerns or some proposals with regard to the compensation. As the minister just said, there's no such kind of a principle to [00:29:30] support such kind of, uh, compensation, because, uh, there is no general that a person who is convicted on a repealed offence is entitled to compensation. Uh, on the repeal of the offence Now, yesterday, when I made my contribution, I did mention about the Georgia Carter principle because some submitters raised their concerns that without a conversation [00:30:00] or lack of such kind of, uh, uh, policy initiative, we could be seen as potentially in breach of the Georgia Carter principle. Now Georgia car principle is a set of a principle established in 2006 about human rights in the sexual orientation and gender identity space. The principles affirm binding international legal standards with which all states must comply. There are 29 such kind of principles [00:30:30] together with additional recommendations. Uh, representatives from UK US, Australia, Canada and New Zealand were among the signatories. We acknowledge the concerns raised by submitters. However, compensation goes beyond, uh, the purpose of the scheme, which is to prevent, uh, as the minister Minister just said, which is present prevent further negative effects from the stigma [00:31:00] of a conversation. Uh, having said that Clause 22 however, of this bill does not limit uh, other measures and the Bill of Rights Act 1990 which protects the right to bring civil litigations against the crown. Uh, further clause 22 does not exclude other rights to, uh, compensation, which may be pursued under existing legislation. [00:31:30] So for those who are concerned about lack of compensation or there's no mechanism provided under this bill, what we can confirm this this, uh, particular, uh, clause or initial policy initiatives. Um, align well, with the approach in comparable, uh, office jurisdictions. Uh, another matter. Um, the minister in the chair just touched upon this about the 19 08 [00:32:00] cut off. Because under this bill, uh uh, it concerns with the two pieces of crimes act if you like. Uh, the first one is crimes act 1961. The the other one is crimes Act 19. 08. What? What I could add on to, uh, the contributions made by the minister and other members is that in practise, the secretary for Justice may [00:32:30] receive a few applications for offending over this time period because the convicted persons would be deceased and potential representatives of the convicted persons are unlikely to have knowledge of the convictions now offences Prior to the Crimes Act, 19 08 were not included. As any convicted persons from this era would have been born [00:33:00] in 18 92 at the latest, Namely, uh, at the age of 16. So, having said that, um, I'd like to take this opportunity to, um uh thank uh, those people who's involved not only, uh, behind this this bill, but also the petition in 2014 of Dam and 2111 [00:33:30] other people behind this petition, which we considered along with this bill. Thank you, madam. Che. I call Greg O'Connor. Madam Speaker. Um, it gives me pleasure to rise on the criminal records. Expungement of conviction for historical homosexual offences. Bill, um, one of my colleagues across the house, uh, described me as a dinosaur some minutes ago. Um, relation to my time in police. Um, [00:34:00] it did cause me to reflect that, um I did spend some time, um, as a police officer in New Zealand police. And I was indeed, um, in place at a time when police were actively policing these these acts. Um, Section 41 in decency between males. Section 142, Sodomy 146. Keeping place a resort for homosexual acts. Section 153. Unnatural offence, Section 154. Attempt to commit unnatural offences. [00:34:30] And as I sat on the select committee and considered the submitters considered the bill, um, it did, uh, cause me to give thought to just what it was like in those days. Um, those days as those in the sixties seventies, eighties even, um, for those who were brought into the criminal justice system because it wasn't just a conviction, [00:35:00] it was, uh, everything that went with that, Um, a lot of the latter years, a lot of the policing of the act was around. And particularly in Wellington around Marion Street, where a lot of, um, transsexual, um, men, Um, a lot of, um, homosexual men, um would, uh, nightly be brought into the Wellington Central police station and charged with associated offences. [00:35:30] So as I considered that, um, I looked at, uh, the different parts of the bill, um, I couldn't help but, uh, having context for what it was we were actually doing and achieving with this bill and that complemented by the submitters who bought their own stories and their own experiences to the select committee. Um, it really did give me a sense that this is a very right thing to be doing. Um, [00:36:00] saying that I think we should remember that we are in another time now. And we shouldn't be too hard on those who were responsible for the legislation, um, or the enforcement of saying in that period because, um, quite frankly, that was another time, but we are now in a time when we are, I think, take a much broader view of, um, the effect of some relatively narrow views um, placed [00:36:30] into criminal justice system can have on the lives of people. Um, particularly those who are part of this and I. I look at what the bill was attempting to actually achieve, um, and its outset. And one of the main parts of that, of course, was that, uh, it was essentially to achieve that [00:37:00] reduce prejudice, stigma and other negative effects. And I go to clause three, the purpose of the act to reduce prejudice, stigma and other negative effects arising from a conviction for historical homosexual offence, Um, and doing that, allowing on application by the convicted person, um, or a representative on their behalf if they are deceased to expunge a historical heterosexual offence if it meets the test for expungement. [00:37:30] And I think that, uh, I, I refer to, um that part of the act where the classes of people who are able to apply on behalf of a deceased person about the executor, the administrator, or the trustee of their estate, or their spouse, civil union partner, de facto partner, parent, sibling or child. Um, the deposition of representative also includes anyone who has requested to be a representative, [00:38:00] and the secretary has granted that request. Um, and I There was some discussion, um, at select committee, Um, as to the extent that it should be applied to those who had passed on, But, uh, certainly the agreement was that, um the pain was often so great. Um, for those individuals, um, that it did actually carry on well beyond the grave and in fact, to family representatives. [00:38:30] Um, Madam Speaker, Um, I commend, um, this bill, um and I would thank you, man. I called Jenny Anderson. Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity to speak on the criminal records, expungement and convictions for historical homosexual offences. And as a member of the, uh, select committee that considered, uh, this bill, it's been, um, really a great privilege to see it progress through these final stages, [00:39:00] and in particular knowing that the the burden that will be lifted off many shoulders of New Zealand men who have been, uh, wrongfully convicted, uh, in the past. So what? This legislation, uh, effectively does is, it sets up a scheme that opens, uh, individuals to be able to apply an application for those that have, uh, been charged and convicted of specific offences that are listed in this, uh, piece of legislation [00:39:30] in particular, sexual conduct between men consenting between 16 years and over or by a family member. So if someone has deceased, it's able to be applied for by a family member of the person affected. And it's important to note, too, that this application process is free. Uh, and it's good to see so many of the, um, submissions that we heard at select committee, uh, raise the question of compensation, uh, under the bill [00:40:00] and whether or not, uh, compensation should be provided, Uh, and that's in clause 22 of, uh, of the bill. And it clearly stipulates that no compensation will be provided for those that had convictions that expunged. And while um, many of those submitters felt who had suffered wrong would like to have been, um, given consideration to that, uh, it's important to note that, um, [00:40:30] we are aware that men convicted of these offences suffered real harm as a result, but, uh, to go further than that. Uh, it was not required. So, uh, there were submitters who agreed with that position of the committee, and and the resolution has been that Clause 22 in fact, provides that there will not be, um, compensation able to be provided. It's important that, um we look at how this bill enables, Um, those, [00:41:00] uh, to, um, look at the case by case analysis. So in clause eight, the scheme requires a case by case assessment of the relevant facts to determine whether the conduct of a person was charged, um, and whether that was, in fact, unlawful today. And it's important to note that that decision is in fact made by the secretary for justice. So there's no need for applicants to appear in person for that. And if a person's conviction [00:41:30] is expunged, the conviction will not appear on a criminal record or a check for any other purpose. And it's also important to note that they will be entitled to declare, if requested, in any way for filling out a job application in terms of requiring to declare their criminal history, that there's no reason for that to be declared in that space, and that is also great to see. Um, there's been a number of, um [00:42:00] uh, comments, too. Made around, uh, clause nine, the general effects of expungement. And that was an issue that the committee also, uh, looked at very closely. So clause nine confirms the effects of expungement and the person with that expunge conviction, um, does not, uh, is entitled to declare they have no such conviction. So the committee, um, has made an amendment to that clause nine to include, um, that the expungement does not authorise [00:42:30] or require the destruction of criminal records of expunged convictions, as stated in the explanatory note on the official record. Um, and it's also important to note that there's been, um, another amendment under clause 13, which notes that it is an offence to unlawfully disclose the information, um, and and the requirement to make sure that is concealed. And so that's an important note, too, that, uh, we live in a in a small country [00:43:00] and people are often accessing records. So by putting the burden of proof on somebody else, for whatever official reason is looking through records to make sure that that is an offence to disclose it. Um, under this legislation to protect, um, really, the privacy of those people who have been wrongfully convicted in the past. Um, it's been, uh, a real privilege to be participating in a bill at this stage after hearing, uh, those submissions firsthand from people affected. And I'm proud to see a strong [00:43:30] bill, uh, that enables the wrongs of the past to be put right and to give people a sense of of that justice. So without further ado, I commend this bill to the house I call the Honourable Andrew Little. Thank you, madam Chair once again thank members for their contributions, and I like to take a moment to respond to as some of the issues raised. Uh, our colleague, uh, Raymond Hare referred to, um clause nine, sub clause seven. And the fact [00:44:00] that court records, um, will continue to be retained. So this is a process. This bill allows for a process for the conviction to be expunged and therefore for the person making the application to not be required to disclose that there was a conviction. That is the nature of expungement. And for those requesting that information not to be able to have access to it, but it doesn't mean that the that the record of the conviction, um, is therefore [00:44:30] destroyed. It is important. Is, uh, I think the select committee was advised that public records, because of the obligations under other statutory obligations, need to be maintained that a combination of the application for expungement, which is then granted changing the or altering what is appears in the record it's accessible to officials. Um, who would be providing information and also constraining those officials from disclosing [00:45:00] a conviction that is otherwise exposed, I think, provides the protection and the certainty that those making applications under this bill, uh, would be looking for, uh, once again, Mr. Hore, um, raises a question about compensation. And he notes that, uh, there is still a right for those who have been convicted under previous legislation and who would be entitled to an expungement under this legislation [00:45:30] to bring claims for damages in relation to conduct against them while in custody or uh, while, uh, incarcerated or otherwise, while while being handled by the authorities, uh, in relation to the offence, which they were subsequently convicted of, There is that angle but compensation merely for the effect of convic. Uh, conviction which would lead to an expungement under this legislation, is too problematic and too complex to contemplate. Uh, which is [00:46:00] why, uh, the bill does not provide for compensation in which, Why the gov Why the government also outside the the confines of the legislation, is not considering a compensation regime? Um, the Honourable member Greg O'Connor um referred in his contribution to, uh the definition of people who can apply for expungement on behalf of those [00:46:30] who have been convicted. And so those who are deceased but who had a conviction, uh, can posthumously achieve an expungement if someone applies on their behalf. And so the legislation calls for a definition of a representative of those people. Um, and that is clearly laid out. And and, uh, Mr O'Connor very assiduously and I would say with great eloquence went through those who are defined as a representative who can make that application. Um, and [00:47:00] it does require it does require some proximity of relationship, uh, to to achieve that is, it is not any old, uh, J blogs can turn up there and apply on behalf of somebody they don't know. Uh, but because they are a busy body and might have some interest in some historical figure, um, it has to be somebody, um uh, a member of the family bearing a mind that a conviction of a person under the the those, uh, historical offences, um, will [00:47:30] feel a sense of shame as well. And it is as much for the assuagement of their sense of shame as much as for the person who had the conviction as well. And finally, uh, Jenny Anderson, uh, referred to the issue about compensation again in clause 22 and confirm the select committee's view is that compensation is not provided for uh, but then Ms Anderson focused on the test for expungement. And what that taste for expungement focuses on is not just merely [00:48:00] the conviction, it's the conduct underlying the conviction And that allows the secretary of Justice who has to consider the applications for expungement to consider whether the nature of the conduct that led to the conviction, um was GE was innocent was was consensual or whether there was a, uh, a predatory character to it or coercion or some other, uh, nature of the conduct that vitiated consent that you would expect there to be, um, [00:48:30] in relation to activities, uh, that that today would not attract a criminal sanction. So those things are covered off. Uh, and once again, I thank members for their questions, and I look forward to the ongoing discussion I call the Honourable Thank you, madam Chair. It's, um I feel quite, um, proud and humbled to take a call on this bill. Such a necessary piece of legislation, Um, in the healing process, which continues around [00:49:00] the stigma, Um, that has persisted despite the 1986 piece of legislation. But the stigma that has been, um, suffered by people, um, who are being punished or have felt that they continue to be punished for being themselves by previous criminal convictions. Um, and, uh, I feel really proud of the the whole of this parliament. Uh, and, um, the parliament of New Zealand that, uh, that we are taking [00:49:30] this step. I've got some specific questions. Um, around, uh, the, uh, section 13. Uh, clause. Sorry. Clause 13 A, which was, um, inserted at the select committee process, which was around the offence to require or request that individual disregard expungement, um, and note that again, the purpose of the bill to reduce prejudice, stigma and all the other negative effects arising [00:50:00] from the conviction for historical homosexual offence. Um, but the select committee, uh, obviously felt concerned enough to want to insert a new clause. And I don't know whether that was as a result of, um, good work just by the select committee members, um, thinking of all the unintended consequences or whether this came from submissions, Um, the 37 submissions, But the concern that in some situations, even if a conviction [00:50:30] had been successfully expunged, that people might still be required to disclose the fact of the conviction. And so the insertion of clause 13 A makes it an explicit offence to require or request an individual to disregard the effect of expungement under the spill. So my question to the chair to the minister and the chair is, um, around the problem definition around that was there, Um [00:51:00] uh, a a set of circumstances where in actual cases where, um, it was concerned this kind of behaviour would occur and and also, um what what would be the process for, um, for actually uh, enacting that offence is how does how does it become an offence? Has what? What? What was [00:51:30] the thought that went into that? And and And I'll just remind the house that, um section uh, clause 13 a, um, has, um, two parts to it. Um, the first part. The person commits an offence if that person, uh, requires or request that an individual disregards the effective expungement under the act when answering a question about the individual's criminal history or disclosing information concerning any convictions of the [00:52:00] individual or both or, um, or they disregard the effective exp expungement under the act. So it sounds as if it's blatant disregard of what this legislation actually stands for, and that there is concern that there is still the prejudice that exists partly in our community, where there are people who would disregard and, um uh, and And if they did, then as a as 0. 2. [00:52:30] That a person commits an offence is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $10,000 as to what thought has gone into how that would actually, um, be enacted. And what would the recourse be? Because if if they wanted to get their, um, conviction expunge they have to apply. Am I correct to the minister? So how does how do you actually get that offence to occur? Does it have to go through the minister to be referred to the court? Or [00:53:00] is there some other mechanism? I guess that's the question I have for the chair on this bill. Um um and I. I certainly am not disagreeing with clause the 13 A. I think it's, um uh, it it's obviously but showed good thinking by the select committee members. But I just, um, on reading through it. And of course not having been at the select committee, um, and am unsure about how that actually played out. Other than that, this is, um, other than having that question answered, this is an extremely [00:53:30] important, um, uh, piece of legislation, part of the healing process. Um, commend it to the house, uh, called Dr Duncan Webb. Madam, it's really just a short point, uh, that I'd like to put to the minister, and it's around clause five of the act which defines historical homosexual offences. Uh, my concern is that there are a number of offences which may have been, uh, lead to conviction. [00:54:00] Um, but which don't fall within those in particular, um, offences which the prosecutor chose to prosecute under some act which didn't have necessarily a homosexual element to it. And examples might be, um, a loitering offence or an indecent exposure offence which, nevertheless, um, were triggered by behaviour. Um, which in fact was [00:54:30] came to the attention of the authorities, the police, Because it had this this homosexual element, which now would not even raise an eyebrow. Uh, a As I read the act, a person who has been convicted of an offence which the prosecutor might in fact have prosecuted because it seemed the less invidious offence to prosecute, will know nevertheless now be tarred with that offence and can't come to the come to come forward and say this is, in fact, and [00:55:00] in substance um, a historic homosexual offence. And because of what appeared to be almost an act of mercy of the prosecutor um, I, I can't now have that that offence expunge, but nevertheless, um, it still carries with it all of the difficulties, um, of of a of an offence that would have to be disclosed. Um if requested. And that does seem to me to be something of a of a mismatch. Now, I, I accept that the [00:55:30] difficulties of proof, uh, around that may be difficult, particularly with the of time. Uh, but it does seem to me particularly for people who are, um, and whose, um prospects and reputation is is affected by this, uh, that it would be appropriate for them to be able to come forward and say, This is a This is a real matter of concern to me. This is, in fact, an offence I should never have been convicted of because it attracts it. It's it's only attracted attention because of my homosexual [00:56:00] conduct. So, Minister, I won't take any more time. It's just a short point. Uh, but I would like to see, uh, your response to that. I call the Honourable and, um similar to my colleague Duncan Webb. Um, just one issue that I wanted to raise, um, with the minister. And I know that interpretations aren't always the most exciting, uh, part of a bill. But I do want to focus in on the interpretation of representative um, which [00:56:30] is clause four, Madam chair. Uh, which sets out, um, that if someone is deceased and on their behalf, um, someone wants to get a conviction expunged. It sets out exactly who, uh, within the bill. Um, is able to do that as a representative. Um, it goes through the list of, um, the executor administrator of a trustee acting on behalf, uh, a spouse or civil union partner or de facto partner of the convicted person. Um, and the issue that I have, um, and or the question that I'd like to ask [00:57:00] is around four, is around C. And that is, um, the definition in terms of, uh, family. Because it is very prescriptive to, um, a parent, sibling or child or the convicted person, uh, can act as a representative. Um, just looking forward, uh, to clause five and the timings around where, um, these convictions may have happened. Um, beginning in August 19 08 and ending in August 1986 is quite a long [00:57:30] time frame. Um, So there could be, uh, a situation where it's not a parent, sibling or child, uh, of a convicted person. But it may be a grandchild or great grandchild of a person that has been convicted under these previous laws, who may want to see, um, the conviction expunged. And I guess the question I would like to ask is whether there is any scope to broaden out. And we're talking about [00:58:00] family who can be a representative of the convicted person who is now deceased, um, either to be less prescriptive or to include grand grandchildren and great grandchildren. Um, because I think we may get into a situation where there's two tests for direct descendants of people who have been convicted of first a proving their worthiness as a representative. Um, And if it were a direct descendant of mine, uh, I find that possibly a little bit offensive, [00:58:30] Um, and and two convincing, uh, the the system that the conviction should or could be expunged. So I guess, um, the very simple question is, can we look at that? Um III. I know that D allows the secretary to deem somebody else who may be an appropriate person to act on behalf of a deceased convicted person. Um, but with with a topic so sensitive, um, and would be felt [00:59:00] quite acutely by grandchildren or great grandchildren of people who are convicted. I think we should seriously think about broadening out the definition of a representative in terms of family members, uh, so that we don't have a two step test for them. Honourable Andrew Little. Thank you, madam Chair. Um, just to, um, uh, respond to some of the questions that have been raised in the last two or three contributions. Can I tend to [00:59:30] the intervention by the honourable Claire? Um, who raised a question about clause 13 A, uh, which makes it an offence to require or request that an individual dis disregard expungement. And as I understood, uh uh, Miss Karen, she had two questions. One is, um uh, focusing on the circumstances in which that might arise and and why did the committee think it was necessary to provide a remedy to this possibility? This [01:00:00] possibility And then secondly, how would the offence be enforced? So on the first, um, this provision mirrors a similar provision in the clean slate legislation. So, uh, somebody who meets the conditions of that legislation of going through a period of time, um, where they have not committed an offence, that a low level offence that they had previously been convicted of. They can apply to, um, have their [01:00:30] criminal record effectively, uh, cleaned up. Hence the name clean Slate. What I think was, uh, under that legislation, What the what parliament at that time considered was the possibility that a person seeking information about prior convictions might try to circumvent the benefit of the legislation by saying, uh, I not only require you to tell me your current convictions, but ask you to disregard your rights [01:01:00] under in that case, the clean slate legislation. And it is important when, considering this bill and the fact that people are now or will wish to use it to remove the more stigmatic convictions that they have, that they should not be imposed upon by others and invited to abandon the rights they will have under the bill. You can imagine a situation in which a an employer or [01:01:30] a private organisation, or whoever who is seeking information about a person because they want to understand about them, perhaps understand about their past track record, may be brazen enough to say effectively. We know you have these rights and the benefit of this legislation, but we will insist that you abandon your rights under the legislation, and we're going to demand that you provide this information and if you don't we will effectively discriminate against you to [01:02:00] allow an employer or an organisation. To do that would be to defeat the objective of the legislation, which is to remove discrimination and stigma associated with a conviction for a homosexual offence that is, in this day and age, not an offence. So, um, it it plays a very important role and the members of the committee are to be congratulated for having the wisdom to insert their provision in there. How would it be enforced where the reality is? It [01:02:30] would require a complaint to the police because if an organisation seeking information which they're not entitled to and in effect seeking information which the person being asked to supply it is not obliged under this legislation, in effect is protected, uh, from disclosing it. Um, uh, they should not. That organisation should not be able to conduct themselves in that way. They should not be able [01:03:00] to defeat the the individual person's rights and the benefits they would have under this legislation. Uh, so they would lay a complaint with the police and the penalty is set at $10,000. Which is an indication from this parliament that discriminatory action is seen as a serious thing by this parliament that one citizen, one legal entity should not be able to discriminate against uh, an individual. Um [01:03:30] uh, my colleague Duncan, Whip Doctor Duncan Whip asked about clause five and the fact that that clause which defines the historical offences which are the subject of the legislation, um is very specific about the particular offences which can be expunged on application to the Secretary of Justice and doctor, we asked the obvious question Why, uh could not other offences that may have [01:04:00] in their commission related to homosexual conduct can they not be the subject of an application for expungement? And the problem with that is, if you if you consider offences like, uh, disorderly conduct or exposure, uh, can't remember the technical nature of your, uh, madam chair? Um uh, is that it? It would add considerable complexity to the job of the Secretary of Justice to consider applications [01:04:30] for offences that can be applied in a in a number of situations, many of which would be legitimate reasons for the conviction and for which there will be no legitimate reasons to not continue to record that conviction. Um, there would be, you know, something like an offence, Like disorderly conduct has an enormous breadth of application. And so, um, although the conduct to which it might apply, uh, might [01:05:00] be homosexual conduct, which this bill, in its specificity, is seeking to avoid the stigma associated with it to determine whether or not the particular offence on that person's record relates to homosexual conduct or something else would add considerable, um, effort and, uh, complexity, that it would make the bill unworkable. So I think the committee has struck the right balance and ensuring [01:05:30] that the bill remains workable and achieves its fundamental objective, which is removing the stigma of criminal offences from a day and age when it was regarded as criminal, but which, in this day and age is not, um, and and to then and therefore remove the stigma and shame associated with that. If I could turn to the question raised by the honourable Christopher, uh, in his contribution, which [01:06:00] is the definition of representative under Clause four, and he's right. The definition of representative goes through a number of steps. There's the legal agents, uh, that a person may have um And then there are the family members and they combined to, um uh the the There are your spouse and civil union partners and what have you. Then there are family members and parent, sibling or child. And the question quite legitimate. Question is, why not a grandchild, given that the bill will apply [01:06:30] to offences that go back to the fourth of August 19 08. And if there is somebody who has a conviction in 19 09 In this day and age, it is most likely going to be a grandchild who will want to make the application. But I think he also, uh, touches on the answer to the question, which is that, uh, clause D or paragraph? D of that, uh, definition of representative allows the Secretary of Justice to exercise a discretion to allow somebody who does not [01:07:00] fall into the definitions and paragraphs a B and C to also make the application and therefore have the application, uh, considered. And I think that is, um, the basis on which a grandchild or or some other it might be a a nephew or a grand nephew or grand niece might make the application. I think what the Secretary of Justice will look for is a familial link, a proximity of the person making the application to the person who has the conviction. Um, on the on the basis [01:07:30] that a conviction of this nature and a day and age and an unenlightened age when these convictions were happening, um, is as much a source of shame to the family as it is to the individual, uh, itself. And when the individual has passed on and deceased the family, it is possible for that family to continue to wear the embarrassment and the shame of that conviction, which they should not. And so I think the the member should be reassured if I can do so [01:08:00] that the Secretary of Justice, uh, would be expected to, uh, take a fair, large and liberal interpretation, uh, of his or her discretion under paragraph D to ensure that, uh, this bill is of value to those who suffered the ignominy of a conviction for conduct, which today is not at all regarded as criminal. So I thank the member for bringing that issue to the attention of the House. But I consider that it is, uh, covered [01:08:30] off by the, um uh, the other provisions in the bill. Um, I call Barbara al. I move that the question be now put. Um, I call coffee. Uh, thank you, Mr Chair. I think the opportunity to talk on this particular bill, uh, and as I get up here and I, uh, have listened to a few of the contributions from some of the members in this house. Uh, I just want to remind the house that, uh, we are We [01:09:00] were once, um, part of the problem. Uh, actually, we were the ones that made the laws that everybody had to follow. And so, as we um, praise, uh, the work that we do Um, I I just caution that we also praise that. Well, remember that we were actually once part of the problem. Um, and for that reason, I'm I'm happy. And I'm sad to stand here and take a call on this. Uh, I'm standing on behalf of all of those people that can't be here today, Of course. Uh, but who have had to live with the guilt and the shame of [01:09:30] having a conviction under this particular, um, under this particular act of parliament. And it's for that reason that I I stood proudly in support of the marriage equality bill back in 2014, um, so that people could understand that things were changing, that times are changing. And I'm happy to say that Parliament, uh, through this particular bill here is also changing as well. Uh, if there's somebody in particular that needs some thanks just in relation to this particular bill, it is, um, the petition of and the 2111 [01:10:00] people that signed his petition, Uh, that came before the house, and, uh, and I just want to, uh, just read it out, Uh, that, in the manner of those who were convicted of consensual consensual homosexual acts prior to the Homosexual Law Reform Act 1986 that the house promptly issued an official apology to those convicted and B pass legislation, which sets out a process for reversing the convictions of those convicted, both living and deceased [01:10:30] in a manner which upholds the manner and the dignity of those convicted. Um, I would like to uh, commend. And all of those people that signed this particular petition, uh, to bring this bill before the house. If anybody needs things, it's actually them. Uh, I want to, uh I want to also, uh, just, uh, raise a point about the, uh the what? What I see is is is very necessary. Uh, the ability for, um, somebody to apply on somebody else's [01:11:00] behalf. Um, I just wanted to touch on that wee point, because, uh, there are many people who, uh, have had convictions against their name for a long time now, uh, who have since passed on. And, uh, for that reason, it is only right, uh, that somebody be able to, uh, apply, uh, for this, uh, expungement on their behalf. Uh, so I commend the committee, um, and and also the minister for making sure that that's a a key part of it. Um, so that we can have representatives, uh, that [01:11:30] can step in on behalf of their, um, their their family member, uh, their friend, their, uh, to be able to make things right. Uh, 1000 people. They say 1000 people may be eligible to apply under this scheme. based on, um, based on data that has been gathered by the Department of Statistics. And for that reason, I look forward to, um uh, to monitoring the process and seeing, uh, the names of people coming out of the shadows, uh, who have been firmly standing [01:12:00] in the shadows for quite some time. Uh, for those prosecutions that were held in 1919, 65 and 1986. Uh, I did want to, uh, just ask the minister one question about the compensation question. I know that, uh, I've been, uh, spoken to by some members of the, uh, of the community of the rainbow community in particular. Uh, just asking that question around, um, compensation. I understand firmly that that's not part of this, but I did want to know, uh, so that I can report back to the community [01:12:30] about why there wasn't the question of compensation raised, Um, and also the difference between an expungement and a pardon, too, because, uh, to normal people out there that don't sit here in the hallowed halls of Parliament, um, they may not understand the difference between those two particular terms. Uh, so just a bit of clarification uh, around that, uh, would also be very welcome. Uh, I'm happy to understand that this is part of a of A of an international movement of, [01:13:00] um, of countries that are, um that are undertaking this process. Uh, I understand that our scheme is particularly mirrored on, um, on the scheme. Uh, that was put through in Australia. Um, and we're going to align our particular bill. Uh, that way, Uh, of course, it has been done in England and in Wales, too. Uh, so I was just trying to understand, uh, what exactly the differences were in those two, as I've only recently come, uh, come [01:13:30] before this particular piece of of legislation. So if we could just, uh, having a have have a wee bit of an explanation as to what the difference was between, uh, the England and Wales situation and why we chose to align ourselves, uh, with the Australians. That would be great. Thank you. Um, I call the Honourable Alfred be now put. Um, I call, uh, Derek ball. Uh, thank you, Mr Chair. I just want to take a very quick call. And, um, in fact, just add a couple of questions or [01:14:00] supplementaries, I guess to, um, the member that just, um, set down some of the coffees questions because they were all revolve around the same topics. The first was the, uh, representative. I know it's been brought up quite a number of times, and you have answered questions, Minister, Um, first of all, I think it's actually one of the most important, um, clauses that's in there because, um, uh, it actually allows the family members to be able to get some reconciliation. Um, for, um, their past loved [01:14:30] ones. Um, I know that the honourable Chris asked if there should be some consideration about, uh, widen the scope for the family members. And I know that you answered that question, sir. Um, but, uh, um, I'm wondering if there's been any consideration and specifically talking about, um, clause 15, 3 and four. So, first of all, the secretary must decide as soon as it is reasonably practical whether the person can represent the convicted person. Um, now, [01:15:00] I know that there's the, um the consideration, but whether the family and the other considerations as well, but is there any situation where they do lie? Um, let's Let's just say, um, within that framework, and be a direct descendant IE, a child or a grandchild or a brother or a sister, that wouldn't necessarily be an a an able representative of that individual. And I guess that moves on to that. That fourth, uh, clause, [01:15:30] um, where it says the secretary's decision must be based on where the representation concerned will be in the interests of the deceased convicted person. So what circumstances? And I know that the that the, um the the, uh circumstances of those individuals and their families would be quite varied and unique. So whether that comes down to an individual, um, looking at them, the secretary, looking at them as individual, separate, very unique circumstances, [01:16:00] or whether there are, um, a few boundaries or rules or regulations or considerations that are existing now that would be applied and F and used to philtre before it got to that unique individual stage. So that's the first question for the minister. Um, and the second one also revolves around the no entitlement to compensation. And, um, the that question has been brought a couple of times, and the minister has, um, answered and, [01:16:30] uh, from what I can recall. The minister has explained it by saying that it's the main reason if not the only reason is because it's quite pro problematic and not disagreeing with that at all. Um, but I'm wondering if there has been consideration through the select committee phase. Um, where the, um, guidelines around compensation that already exist from the Ministry of Justice were used and or considered to justify no compensation. And I know [01:17:00] one of the, um clear. Well, from what I've read of the, um what was on the on the Ministry of Justice websites was the clear difference. I think one of the differences between the situation that we're talking about in this bill to normal compensation was that, um a, uh an individual was imprisoned because they broke the law and they found that they didn't break that law, whereas in this situation, the law itself was expunged even though they did break the law. So I know it sounds a little bit ambiguous, [01:17:30] but, um, I I think that if the minister could explain whether or not that part of the of of the, um, um, Ministry of Justice guidelines were used or not, or whether it was just simply because it was problematic. And that was the end of the conversation. So, um, those are the 22 questions. I've got to add them to the mix. Thank you, Mr Chair. Um, I call the Honourable Andrew. Uh, thank you, Mr Chair. Um, if I could just now respond to the latest set of queries, [01:18:00] Uh, so to the honourable member to Coffey, who has raised a couple of questions. One about compensation and effectively, why not? And perhaps I'll take the opportunity in answering Mr Coffey's question to answer also Derek Ball's question. Um, it was considered, as I understand it, it occupied a significant amount of the committee's time to consider the issue of compensation. Submitters raised it. And it's a legitimate question to ask, uh, given [01:18:30] that the law changed, people have been tarred with a criminal sanction for conduct. That certainly is not criminal today, and we would argue it should never have been criminal. Um, but that was a less enlightened age. In 1986 we became enlightened. The difficulty with compensation is that there will be different circumstances for different people that might call for varying levels of compensation, [01:19:00] Uh, and that then makes it very complex and very complicated. And so the decision was made not to provide for compensation. It would be equally unfair to say, right, Everybody gets the same amount if if that were the, the government were minded to do that. But that would not be to take into account the circumstances that some faced. For some, the humiliation may have been greater because of the nature of the arrest, the circumstances in which they were detained, the, uh, length of time [01:19:30] they were incarcerated, Um, and whether or not they were subjected to further prejudice and discrimination while they were in the state's custody. So huge complexity about a formula to achieve compensation. And in the end, the judgement was that it was just too hard. Um, and, uh, I think Mr Ball makes a very, um, important point, which is that right now we have compensation for those who are imprisoned [01:20:00] wrongfully, and it is then discovered that the offence for which they are imprisoned, they actually never committed. They never committed the act which lead lead to the conviction that led to them being imprisoned, and they should therefore never have been detained at all in prison, and they are compensated for that. What we're doing here is saying that there was conduct that was regarded as criminal conduct at once upon a time in our history, whether we agree with that or not. Now, [01:20:30] we clearly disagree with it now because in 1986 we passed a law saying that conduct is no longer criminal. And now we're going taking the further step of saying those who were criminalised by that conduct but who are otherwise innocent. We are going to expunge the record of that, uh, that criminality. But the act happened, the conduct happened. And, uh, we can't We might be able to expunge the criminal record. We can't expunge the the act that, in fact, took place. [01:21:00] Um, and if I could turn to, uh, that segues nicely into the second question. Asked by, uh, Mr Coffey, which was the difference between an expungement and a pardon. The expungement is of the criminal record. It says this record should not exist. We've made the enlightened decision that even though you were convicted because of the conduct that you engaged in at a time when that conduct was criminal. It is no longer criminal. You should not continue to carry [01:21:30] the shame and humiliation of a criminal record. Because in this day and age, we don't regard that conduct as criminal. So we will expunge the record. A pardon applies where you were accused of conduct, which was criminal. But you are later discovered to have never committed that conduct, and therefore, you should never have been criminalised in that sort of way. So that is why we talk about expungement. In these circumstances, we don't talk about a pardon because the conduct, in fact [01:22:00] happened. Uh, even though, uh, that conduct happening today, you know, would not would not be criminal would therefore not attract criminal sanction. Um, but But there is that difference. So on that basis, um, I think the committee has done a very good job in distilling out What is the appropriate action to take? It is an expungement, um, and and that gets us to where we are. I know. Mr Coffey referred to the petition. Um, they also called upon, uh, the parliament to make an apology [01:22:30] to those convicted and the honourable Amy Adams, who was the minister or she was the minister who took up this legislation originally sponsored It brought it to the house. And in the first reading, uh, she provided the apology that was called for in the petition. And I think when we get to the third reading, we will no doubt underscore that, because I think that is a legitimate thing to do. I'm Hamish Walker. I over the question we now put, uh, the question [01:23:00] is that the question be now, put those of that opinion will say I those against will say no. The eyes have it. The question is that parts one and two schedules one and two and clauses one and two stand part. All those in favour say I all those against say no. The eyes [01:23:30] have it. I will report the bill with out amendment. You done, members. The house has resumed. Um, Madam Speaker, The committee has considered the criminal records expungement of convictions for historical homosexual offences bill and reports without amendment. [01:24:00] I move that the report be adopted. The question is that the report be adopted. Those of that opinion will say I to the contrary. No, the eyes have it the bill is set down for third reading. Next sitting day, I call on government order of the day number two.

IRN: 1192
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089825
TITLE: Parliament: second reading of the Criminal Records (Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences) Bill
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VOICES: Adrian Rurawhe; Amy Adams; Andrew Falloon; Andrew Little; Chris Bishop; Darroch Ball; David Seymour; Ginny Andersen; Grant Robertson; Jan Logie; Maggie Barry; Matt King; Poto Williams; Priyanca Radhakrishnan; Raymond Huo; Tim van de Molen
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; 2010s; ACT New Zealand; Adrian Rurawhe; Alan Turing; Amy Adams; Andrew Falloon; Aotearoa New Zealand; Canada; Chris Bishop; Crimes Act (1908); Crimes Act (1961); Crimes Amendment Bill (1974, Venn Young); Criminal Records (Clean Slate) Act (2004); Criminal Records (Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences) Act 2018; Darroch Ball; David Seymour; Denis O'Rourke; Fran Wilde; Gay Purge (Canada); Germany; Ginny Andersen; Grant Robertson; Historic Convictions; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Human Rights Act (1993); Human Rights Commission; Jan Logie; Jonathan Young; Justice Committee; Maggie Barry; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Matt King; Member of Parliament; National Party; Nazi Germany; New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF); New Zealand First; New Zealand Labour Party; New Zealand Law Society; OUSA Queer Support (Otago University Students' Association); Parliament buildings; Poto Williams; Priyanca Radhakrishnan; Public Records Act (2005); Rainbow Wellington; Raymond Huo; Secretary for Justice; Ted Greensmith-West; Tim van de Molen; Venn Young; Vulnerable Children Act (2014); Wellington; Wiremu Demchick; Yogyakarta Principles (2006); apology; attempted suicide; attitude; bisexual; chant; children; compensation; computer science; computers; concealed conviction; consensual sex; consent; convictions; criminal background check; criminal record; criminalisation; death penalty; decriminalisation; discrimination; employment; equality; expungement; freedom; fruit; fruit machine (homosexuality test); future; gay; gender; gender identity; gender-affirming surgery; government; guilt; homosexual; homosexual law reform; hope; identity; intersex; justice; law; legislation; marriage; marriage equality; mental health; overseas travel; petition; petition on historic convictions; politics; prejudice; public toilet; respect; rewrite history; select committee; self esteem; self hate; sexuality; shame; stigma; submission; suicide; support; tolerance; trans; transgender; unnatural offence; youth
DATE: 27 March 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I call on Government Order of the day Number two criminal records Expungement of convictions for historical homosexual offences Bill Second reading. Mr Speaker The Honourable Andrew Little I move that the criminal records expungement of convictions for historical homosexual offences Bill be now read a second time, Mr Speaker on the This bill demonstrates the government's ongoing commitment to right the wrongs of the past For those who were convicted of [00:00:30] historical homosexual offences prior to the Homosexual Law Reform Act of 1986 I'd like to particularly acknowledge the work of my predecessor as Minister of Justice, the honourable Amy Adams, who introduced this bill originally to parliament Uh and, uh, initially shepherded it, uh, through the house. I want to also thank members of the Justice Committee for their consideration of the bill. The committee received 37 submissions and has recommended that the bill proceed with some [00:01:00] amendments. Almost every submission expressed clear support for the intent of the bill. The committee heard 10 oral submissions and I'd like to thank those submitters for sharing their stories. Many submitters commended the bill for introducing a novel scheme and were positive about the change that this bill would bring. The committee has recommended a small number of changes which will ensure that the bill achieves its intended purpose. [00:01:30] The Homosexual Law Reform Act of 1986 decriminalised sexual conduct between consenting males aged 16 years and over the rights to be free from discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation was later recognised in the Human Rights Act of 1993. Allowing historical convictions for homosexual offences to remain on a person's criminal history perpetuates the stigma that those convictions carry. And it should never [00:02:00] be beyond this house to recognise that laws passed in earlier generations when different values and more applied, uh, can have consequences which it is in the power of this house to provide redress for the purpose of this bill is to address the ongoing stigma, prejudice and other negative effects arising from a conviction for a historical homosexual offence by creating a statutory scheme for [00:02:30] a convicted person or a representative on their behalf. If that person is deceased to apply for the conviction to be expunged, if the application is successful, the conviction will not appear on a criminal history check and the person will not be required to disclose information about the expunged conviction for any purpose and indeed, anybody who then discloses that conviction, uh, we not authorised to do so commits an offence under the act. The scheme applies [00:03:00] to Crimes Act 1961 offences that were repealed by the Homosexual Law Reform Act in 1986 and their predecessor offences under the Crimes Act 19 08. The bill provides for the Secretary of Justice to consider whether their applications for expungement meet the statutory test. The test is that the behaviour would no longer constitute an offence under today's law. That takes account of the possibility that some of those convictions, uh related to, [00:03:30] uh, genuinely criminal conduct and the nature of predatory offences or assaults that went beyond, uh, merely consensual conduct between, uh between men. The committee recommended changes to improve offence provisions to better align with other legislation and to ensure that people are not put under pressure to disclose their expunged convictions. A further change is the inclusion of a provision which makes [00:04:00] it explicit that expungement of a conviction does not authorise or require the destruction of criminal records of expunged convictions. Other changes are relatively minor and technical. Some small amendments to wording have been recommended to align the bill with the language used in the Public Records Act 2005. This bill's purpose is to provide for an expungement scheme to reduce prejudice, stigma and other negative effects arising from [00:04:30] a conviction for a historical homosexual offence. The bill empowers those convicted and their representatives by providing a simple, low cost and effective way to right the wrongs of the past. With the committee's recommended changes, I'm confident that the bill will more effectively achieve these objectives and I conclude by addressing one other point that was commonly raised in the submissions and that is the issue of compensation. The committee necessarily considered that issue [00:05:00] of compensation and in the end concluded that it was not possible to consider or to recommend a scheme that would provide a compensation. Uh, that would be easy to apply or streamline and take account of the variety of different circumstances in which the original offences were committed and that would now be expunged. Uh, and so the government, at least, um, will not be providing or will not be entertaining a compensation regime. [00:05:30] Uh, as a consequence of this bill, Uh, Mr Speaker, on that basis and with those comments, I commend this bill to the house. The question is that the motion be agreed to Mr Speaker, the honourable Amy Adams. Mr. Speaker, I'm very proud to take a call in the second reading on the criminal records Expungement of convictions for historical homosexual offences. Bill, Uh, and I say I'm very proud because I do take, uh, an enormous sense of pride. Uh, in that this piece of work came about, [00:06:00] uh, under my tenure as minister of Justice and under, uh, the National Party's period of government. Uh, and I want to acknowledge the the current minister, Andrew Little, obviously, for continuing the work with the same degree of commitment, uh, and urgency, actually, to get it in place that we certainly had on this side of the house. There aren't that many opportunities in this house where you get the chance to do something. Uh, that just simply feels at a very innate level, right? Uh, and this bill feels like that to me. It's always [00:06:30] felt, uh, like that to me. And I also want to put on record that It's one of those equally rare chances in this house to do something I hope continue to be. Collectively, I certainly that has been the experience to date, but that is absolutely above party politics. Uh, now, those of us who have been members of this house for some time know that there are more occasions than the public. Probably see where we do work, actually, for what is simply the right thing to do and in the best interests of this country, irrespective of party loans. Uh, and [00:07:00] this piece of legislation has certainly been one of those and will certainly stand out, uh, in my memory. For that reason, uh, I want to acknowledge the work of the select committee, as the Minister has done. I had the privilege of sitting on that select committee while it was considering, uh, this bill and in, uh, in in most of its consideration, uh, and again on that committee. And I acknowledge the chair, um, Mr Ray Hall, who who chaired the committee through that process again, sir, it was incredibly heartening to see, uh, a group of committee [00:07:30] members who actually hunted in a bit of a pack uh, vis a vis officials. Really? There was the committee members that are on one side all lining up with a very similar view of what we wanted to see happen, Uh, and and on occasion, running up against, uh perhaps, um, some drafters and some officials who hadn't quite understood exactly how we wanted it to work. And I want to just record in this contribution that, actually, the members of the committee representing members across the house were really clear. When this bill talked about being an expungement scheme. We wanted [00:08:00] it to be an expungement scheme IE that the conviction was as if it had never happened, not a scheme whereby the convictions still remained on record, But everyone was just directed to disregard it. Uh, and to us on the committee, that was a really important distinction. And we believed, uh, to the submitters and those of those affected by this legislation. An incredibly important distinction to make. This was always to be more than simply, uh, the clean slate Act two point. Oh, this is the first [00:08:30] time this parliament will have ever created an expungement scheme like this. Now, in one sense, it didn't help us because there was a lack of simple precedent. But actually, it reflected the the seriousness with which we took this issue and the depth of feeling about the fact that this these laws, the laws that these men were convicted under are now seen as absolutely wrong, fundamentally wrong, and that those men should not have born the scar of that criminal conviction. Now, for this parliament [00:09:00] to do what it can do to redress that it is important that the expungement goes far beyond simply a You are not allowed to discriminate on the basis of this conviction. Sorry, Mr Speaker. Certainly not you. The society is not allowed to discriminate on the basis of these convictions and becomes as close as we could, uh, physically and practically get it to a situation where these convictions and as if it as if as if they never existed, uh, for the purposes of New Zealand law. Uh, Mr Speaker, in the first reading, [00:09:30] uh, of this bill, we didn't just move the first reading of the bill and send it off to select committee in the way in which we normally did. This house also passed a motion that I moved that this parliament apologised to those homosexual New Zealanders who are convicted for consensual adult activity and recognise the tremendous hurt and suffering those men and their families have gone through and the continued effects that those convictions have had on them. We put on the record that this house deeply regretted the hurt and stigma [00:10:00] suffered by the many hundreds of New Zealand men who were turned into criminals by a law that was profoundly wrong. And for that, this house, this Parliament, put on record that it was sorry. We acknowledged that those men should never have been burdened with conviction. And we wanted to recognise the continued effects that the convictions had had on their lives and the lives of their family. Now, Mr Speaker, when we as the government at that time decided to move that motion and with the support of other parties in the house, passed [00:10:30] that motion, it was a very deliberate decision that it was this parliament as an institution that would apologise and express in its most sincere form the sense of regret, the understanding of the hurt and the desire to put it right again. Mr. Speaker that is, in my experience and my understanding quite unique. And I do hope that this bill that that apology and that the action of this house to move with some pace actually, [00:11:00] I might not always seem like it from the outside looking in, but with some pace given all of the other work that's going on to put this bill into law does reflect our real desire to bring this awful period of our history, uh, to a close, as far as we can ever rewrite history. And that was certainly a theme in the select committee. We can't change history and actually, nor should we want to, because sometimes remembering the wrongs of the past is incredibly important. So we weren't trying to rewrite history and blanket from history, [00:11:30] but we were absolutely setting out to ensure that the impact of these criminal convictions, the tag of criminality, uh, the stigma that settled on these men and their families should be removed. As far as this house could, uh, could, uh, physically make that possible, Mr. Speaker, I think the bill now is in a better state than when I introduced it to the house. So I'm certainly happy to acknowledge that, uh, I think we have got it far more to the place, uh, that we had we as a government [00:12:00] introducing it, and this house had wanted it to be at first reading. I think it does go as far as we practically can to make those Acknowledgments and to right those wrongs. Mr. Speaker, it is a bill that I'm incredibly proud of. It is a bill that I do hope and believe will help to heal those wounds. Uh, and it is a bill that I'm very pleased to support. Speaker, Um, I called Derek Wall. [00:12:30] Uh, thank you, Mr Speaker. It's a, um, a pleasure to rise on path of New Zealand first, um, in support of the criminal records expungement of convictions for historical homosexual offences. Bill, um, as we've heard from the Minister and other, um, contributions so far, this bill seeks to reduce the prejudice, stigma and all other negative effects arising from a conviction, uh, for historical homosexual offences. It also entitles the convicted person to declare that they have no [00:13:00] such conviction under New Zealand law and that the conviction would no longer appear on a criminal history. Risk? Uh, check. Um, so it's actually not that often that, um you get to stand up in the house and speak on a bill that has 100% full support from every member of this house. Um, but I think also, um, the most important part is, um, I feel from my perspective, there's no politics involved with [00:13:30] this. I think that, um we have all recognised as a country, Um, and the representatives here of that country that, um, there are There were some terrible wrongs that occurred. And we had the responsibility in this house to not only recognise those wrongs but also apologise for, um, our role as a government and the leaders of that country. Um, and though that hurt and unnecessary hurt on those individuals, [00:14:00] um, New Zealand first obviously fully supports this, uh, piece of legislation, sir, and backs the apology and this movement through the house of this legislation. It it also supports the, uh, the recommendations for the changes. The slight changes, uh, in the select committee and the amendments, uh, from the select committee. Um, this bill actually does highlight sort of double edged sword. Um, it's, uh, it highlights, [00:14:30] um, somewhat of a stain on on our country's history. Um, and the effect that we have we had on some individuals because of their personal orientation. But also, it shows, I think, um, the other side of the coin where it shows how far we've actually come. Um, since, uh, that not not so long ago. And, um, O'Rourke took the first call and was involved with the, um, with the select committee process of this bill. And I only took over this obviously this year, but, um, [00:15:00] one of the things that I know I know that I think everybody out there in the in the general public understands that it wasn't that long ago that we had a law against homosexual orientation. Uh, and you know what? What? What this bill actually highlights to me was, in fact, it wasn't. It was such a short period ago in 1986 which was in my life time. And I find that it's, um, unimaginable, uh, for anybody of the new generation that was born post that time to actually comprehend and to understand. [00:15:30] Um, of course, it's, uh It's never too late to apologise, sir. Um and it's never too late to admit to wrongdoings, and that's what this legislation allows. Uh, unfortunately, it is too late in some circumstances to avoid the massive damage that was caused to some of those individuals to innocent people. And, uh, we need to acknowledge that there's three main issues that this [00:16:00] bill seeks to accomplish, And it does. I believe so. The first is that it reconfirms the freedom of people to lawfully express their sexuality and be free from prejudice or any prejudice. In doing so, The second it avoids huge disadvantage, uh, suffering such a conviction, uh, in in, uh, in regards to having to disclose the conviction in terms of employment and so on. But most importantly, the third [00:16:30] one, sir, is that it goes some way hopefully, to restore some sort of self esteem to those individuals helps them enhance their mental well being and self-worth, uh, for all of those who suffered convictions. One of the most important aspects of this piece of legislation going through is that, um it's not just a piece of paper that they were and are real life stories and individuals that were affected by this [00:17:00] and I think that it's important to not just speak about the what's written in the legislation, the bill that's going through this house but how it has or how the previous law affected specific individuals and their stories. And I'd just like to take the next couple of minutes and, uh, 32 or three of the, um, submissions that I have, um, gone through and really stand out for me. So, um, one states that these [00:17:30] convictions destroyed careers, including, in the case of our friend, a top honours graduate of Port Sea officer cadet school, forcing his resignation from his post as a younger youngest ever captain to hold a commission in the New Zealand Army. More significantly, they cause substantial trauma and loss of dignity to those affected and the quotes from that individual. This conviction still leads up to 53 years to self hatred, worthlessness, unjustified [00:18:00] guilt and shame to relive the anguish and pain. Chronic drinking and self-destruction took control over the next 10 to 15 years until the realisation that I wasn't a two headed monster and there were many others like me throughout the world. I love my country but live in fear of being found out of further humiliate humiliation, panic attacks. When I see a an un, a uniformed police officer and a general feeling of being unworthy to myself, [00:18:30] something few others would understand Another one, sir, I had never been arrested before or been in trouble with the police. I was charged with keeping a place of resort for indecent act between males. There was the abuse, bashings and terror that followed from anti gay bigots. This conviction has affected me personally and financially ever since, hindering my employment prospects and overseas travel. I've been active doing voluntary work, [00:19:00] but I have been disadvantaged when background checks have been required for some organisations. Uh, and this one actually from a different perspective, sir, It was from a young New Zealander who didn't live in those times. They say I'm a criminal in 76 countries and I am so thankful that I'm not seen as a criminal in my home country. I am the hateful words spoken by the mouths of many, whether it is in high school [00:19:30] halls or behind some walls. Hate speech is still prevalent in our society. I am dead. The death sentence in five countries. I'm the noose tightening around their neck or the shot from the electric chair because they couldn't. They could have been me if I was born in a different place. And if I had spoken up, then some people cannot be a voice. 31 years ago, I could have been behind bars for just being who I am. And lastly, sir, I think everyone has heard [00:20:00] of, um well, one of the most notable examples of being convicted for their sexual orientation. Uh, and that individual was, um, Alan Turing, not a New Zealander, but, um, he was obviously British, but this suffered under the same legislation that occurred back then. Uh, he was a highly influential in the development of the theoretical computer science. Turing is widely considered to be the father of theoretical computer science and artificial [00:20:30] intelligence. He was responsible for breaking the Nazi Enigma code during World War Two. His work gave the Allies the edge they needed to win the war in Europe and led to the creation of the computer. Uh, defiant. Sorry. In 1952 he was arrested and charged with indecency after a brief relationship with another man Hamas was still a crime in Great Britain at that time. Defiant, he did not deny the charges. When he was arrested, the first [00:21:00] thing he said was he thought that this should not be against the law. He gave a statement that was unapologetic. That detailed what had happened took his own life. In 1954 2 years of being outed as gay. He died from eating an apple laced with cyanide, and he was only 41 years old. So I think that, um, those individual cases that we heard from the submitters and just a few of them and, um, [00:21:30] that one of the most famous examples of the hugely negative effects, um, that a piece of horrid legislation that that previously existed prior to 1986 does on individuals. I'm very proud of this house moving forward as one and reaching to New Zealand first is part of that and passing this legislation. Thank you, sir. I call the Honourable Maggie Barry. Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is with great pride. I rise to speak at the second reading of the criminal records Expungement [00:22:00] of convictions for historical homosexual offences. Uh, national, Of course, supports this bill? Uh, because it builds on the work of the former minister of Justice Amy Adams, who's took an earlier call in this house in July last year when the first reading came through and the apology, uh, was given. I feel it was an extremely significant milestone, Uh, really a place of watershed time in this house. Actually, I'm searching for the right words because this is a house that has lagged behind where it ought to have been [00:22:30] on this particular issue. This is a scheme that is long overdue. It is a step towards addressing the stigma, the prejudice and the pain that many New Zealanders had to live with unfairly. And it has helped to put right or wrong that has stood for too many years 32 years ago in this place the Homosexual Law Reform Act, decriminalised homosexual conduct between consenting males, 16 years of age and older. It then took Parliament [00:23:00] a further seven years, uh, to amend the law to allow the right to be free from discrimination on the grounds of homosexual orientation, which was recognised in the Human Rights Act of 1993. It then took another 25 years to pass the marriage definition of Marriage Amendment Act. In 2013, I was a member of Parliament in this house, and I'm proud to say, uh, I voted on all three readings in favour of that piece of legislation allowing same sex couples to legally marry. [00:23:30] Uh, this parliament has taken its time to address the rights of the past, but we are doing it again today with the second reading at the first reading, Uh, the then Minister Amy Adams, who referred to it again in her earlier call, made an apology on behalf of all of Parliament about the hurt and the stigma suffered by men who were made into criminals. Uh, when the provisions of this act come in and I think it will, uh, quite swiftly because it is supported across the house, as others have said, that is a rarity. [00:24:00] Uh, but the main provisions will be that people will be able to and eligible to apply if they were convicted of specific offences under the Crimes Act relating to sexual activity between males. 16 years of over those were the acts of course that were decriminalised under the homosexual law Reform Act of 1986. So there are five main offences. I won't go through them. Uh, the the presiding minister did that a few moments ago, but I think it it is very important to recognise, [00:24:30] uh, that the sexual activity, uh, must have been consensual and that both parties were over 16 years of age. I know that there were people who made admissions who felt that, uh, that the age should not be relevant. But, uh, the criminal act factor still applies of over the age of 16 now, So I know that the select committee at the time the Justice Select Committee, of which I am a member, currently uh, really debated that extensively. But I think it is important to acknowledge that the process as well is [00:25:00] one that is is a different one for this parliament. Um, there are many differences about this piece of legislation. I'll highlight a couple of them. The secretary for justice will be the individual responsible for determining determining applications on a case by case basis. But this will not mean that uh, men will be expected to come forth and give evidence here in person even, uh the secretary will be able to require applicants to provide relevant information on request if necessary [00:25:30] to make the decision. But the process should be as easy as possible, and I think that that is important. These men have suffered enough and for long enough, so if an application is approved, their conviction would be expunged and that expungement is noted in official records. But what does that mean? In practise? It means that the person, formally with a criminal record, would be entitled to declare that they have no conviction and that their conviction would not appear on any official criminal record. Uh, for those [00:26:00] of us who are laypeople and don't understand the the minutia of the law sometimes, uh, in this case, uh, it is important, I think, to note that the Justice Select Committee took a lot of time, uh, to talk about expungement, which is, as others have mentioned, very rare, uh, in New Zealand law. The significance of it is that if it went to a concealed conviction, which was, I think what was initially proposed, then that conviction may still be disclosed in certain situations, and a person must be conviction free for seven [00:26:30] years and have never been imprisoned to be eligible under the act. And expungement, though, will be available regardless of any subsequent offending and the sentence imposed. I think that is extremely important, and expungement it is if it never existed, and nor should it have. But we are putting that record straight. And that's important because of the psychological impact that this legislation, uh, the former laws really, uh, have had on the victims and the the people who have been supposed to be perpetrators. [00:27:00] And the previous speaker, uh, gave some very moving examples of, uh of people whose lives have been blighted, overshadowed and shortened, sometimes at their own hand. By that sense of shame, it is not to be taken lightly. Experiencing discrimination on the basis of sexuality is not something that happens in New Zealand anymore, and nor should it, uh, it can have an impact on an individual's opportunities. Uh, not only in their employment, I mean, for example, uh, they wouldn't be able to take on governance roles on [00:27:30] committees and so forth, uh, because a criminal conviction would not allow them to do that. But they wouldn't even necessarily be able to travel to places. Uh, and these are the sort of, uh, ongoing issues with people with criminal convictions, uh, that are really important to note, because it really does contain people's lives and restrain people's lives in a way that is manifestly unfair. It seems to me that this is a piece of legislation that, uh, really is tidying up some of the bad practises of the past. [00:28:00] And I think that the 10 submissions I think it was that the justice Committee heard outlined the the reasons why it was so important, uh, to to men who are alive, but also those who have passed away. And this bill allows people to be able to put their, uh, their relative or their their friends' case forward, uh, and to ask for that expungement. And I think that when you're putting right historical wrongs, it's very important to understand that, uh, for those who have passed that it is still important as it is in war records. [00:28:30] Actually, uh, when people have been, uh, um, unlawfully or inappropriately found guilty, uh, in a wartime situation, uh, their families spend sometimes generations, uh, trying to put their military record right and to put their side of the story. I think it is a very important element of this legislation that does allow, uh, that posthumous recognition, uh, of innocence and expungement, I think is the key note here. So, uh, I think that this bill will proceed [00:29:00] This this will go through the house, Uh, smoothly. I hope it does. Uh, it can't come soon enough. And I would urge all members of this house to continue to make their points, but also to move this piece of legislation through as quickly as possible. Uh, because it is a wrong that needs to be put right as soon as possible. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I call the Honourable Grant Robertson. Thank you very much. Mr Speaker. Thank you for the opportunity to contribute to the second reading of this bill. Uh, in the first reading, uh, of this [00:29:30] bill, I made, uh, a speech that really II, I hope, uh, set up for for myself and for others. The premise behind why we need this legislation. Uh, and it's been mentioned by a number of other colleagues, and and I think it's important that we don't lose sight of what now will become a slightly technical debate about elements of the bill. What we're trying to achieve here and what we are doing, as other speakers have said, is trying [00:30:00] to write AAA vastly unjust, wrong, uh, that existed in our society for so long. It was interesting to me, Mr Speaker, when reading the submissions that came in on this legislation to the select committee just how many of them came from young people from people whose life and existence is far removed from that of the men who were convicted, uh, under this unjust law And I [00:30:30] was struck particularly, and my colleague Derek Ball has already quoted from this person's submission. But from the teenager who submitted to the committee and used this phrase, which I think is an extraordinary one. Love used to carry a prison sentence in this very country until 1986. For a teenager to say that so clearly and starkly to this house is to me, uh, a validation of a number of things, including our select committee process, actually, [00:31:00] but also of the fact that we have a new generation of young um LG BT IQ people coming through who have the most extraordinary, uh, vision not only of their own lives but also looking back to the past. And I think we need to acknowledge that that happened in, uh, the select committee process. Mr. Speaker, uh, I want to talk for the most part in the second reading, as I think we're actually meant to do about, uh, the select committee process [00:31:30] and acknowledge the fact that, um, the committee has done some useful things in terms of dealing with the issues that were raised in front of them. And, um, the whole question of what an expunged conviction is, uh, the movement from defining a criminal record. Um, and replacing that with official record, I think is a step forward because I think that acknowledges that a criminal record could be defined as quite a narrow term. Uh, the official record means that we cover, uh, a wider set of public records, [00:32:00] particularly those, um, in line with the Public Records Act. And it also makes it more similar to the clean slate act. I think that will go some way to, uh, uh, meeting the concerns of of MP S. Who, uh, sorry of Of submitters who came to MP S with that. The other matter that I know a number of submitters were concerned about was the question of whether or not the language in the bill was limiting, uh, what we were doing here today to New Zealand and that it would, in fact, uh, not help, [00:32:30] uh, people who were working or travelling overseas and that, um we were, in fact writing the bill in such a way as to as to cause there. And I note that the committee is, uh is looking at clarifying clause nine to remove the word only from the phrase for the purposes only of the laws of New Zealand. Because we do, I believe, as a parliament want this, uh uh, expungement to be recognised in overseas jurisdictions. That is only right. Right. Uh, it is only right that [00:33:00] we as a parliament, take some responsibility for that. I do, of course, note that we can't take full responsibility for the laws of other countries. But what we can do is ensure that our law facilitates and supports people. Um, who have been affected by these unjust convictions, uh, from travelling overseas. Mr. Speaker, The other and, um, more far reaching thing that I think came out from the, uh, select committee submissions is the importance of noting that this, uh, [00:33:30] this piece of legislation matters not only for the people who are still alive today who had convictions not only for the families of people who were convicted, but also for the wider community. Um, in the LGBTI Q community. And I think that was starkly drawn out by the submissions that came from organisations Um that represent, uh uh, uh youth, um, all the way through to the law, society and [00:34:00] others and that we as a parliament as we pass this legislation, not have to realise that not only does the weight of history land on our shoulders, but also the weight of the future and time and time again, what the submissions here, um do is call this parliament to action to continue to make New Zealand a place where people can be who they are, where people are supported to live lives of dignity and hope and free from [00:34:30] discrimination. And those submissions, time and time again raised the issues that still exist in our community. Some of them are legislative particularly for the trans community. Some of them are attitudinal for people, for young people expressing still the discrimination that they feel in their communities. And some of them are about the way in which we continue to support people, be it the Transcom community seeking, uh, gender surgery [00:35:00] or be it, Uh, uh, health services, social services that are provided. And, Mr Speaker, while this particular bill cannot do much about that, I think we owe it to the people who submitted to the committee to acknowledge and to recognise the fact that we are on a journey here. And it's a journey that this bill takes an important step in. But it is not the end of that journey. And there were several submissions, Mr Speaker, that went [00:35:30] down this path. And I do want to make a special reference to someone who is known to me. I should say, Uh uh, Greens West, who in his, uh, submission, I think very eloquently talked about the issues that are in front of us. Um, today and I just want to quote briefly from the end of his submission. Everything that I do in my life is to ensure that those LGBT kids coming through the system today do not have to experience the same struggles that I did [00:36:00] growing up in New Zealand. These are exactly the same goals of those brave men who fought for decriminalisation in the nineties, in the eighties and of those who suffered in silence for decades. We have a long journey before us in order to treat achieve true equity and equality for LGBT New Zealanders. And Ted is writing to the committee here. I invite each and every member of the select committee to join me and the hundreds of other G BT New Zealanders in that journey. We need you. [00:36:30] Parliament needs to hear the call of those in our community who are saying they still need us. This is an important step. This is a useful and important piece of legislation that will mean an enormous amount to the people who carry the shame and the stigma. Still, today of the convictions that they got, we must make sure, as we move through the remaining stages of the bill, that we make the bill as clear as possible. And I believe the Select [00:37:00] Committee changes do that, that that is what we will be doing today for them and for their families. And then we must redouble our efforts to make sure that as a parliament we do everything we can to support the young people. Not only those who submitted, but those who are still, uh, working their way, uh, through, uh, their own journey, Mr Speaker I. I won't delay the house much longer on this matter. Other than to say I'm very pleased that the legislation has found its way to this stage. There is an important [00:37:30] issue that needs to be acknowledged in my final period, and that is the call for compensation. We need to acknowledge that members of our community have come to the select committee and asked for this. We also need to acknowledge that this is an issue where there are divided opinions about compensation. I hope as we move through the committee of the whole house, stage members of the committee will talk through the way they came to their decision about this. It is not an easy topic, but it is [00:38:00] important that we give honour to those who submitted, uh on this matter and the people that they represent. I continue to believe there are a number of ways available to the government and to this parliament to think about how we honour the men who were so unjustly convicted the men whose lives were ruined and the men whose lives were ended by this. There are a number of ways forward for this parliament in this country. I want that dialogue to continue. And I think it's [00:38:30] very important that, uh, we do that as part of of this bill process. Mr. Speaker, I want to end my contribution by acknowledging every single person who made a submission to the select committee the people that they represent and the committee members themselves. This is our democracy working. Well, it is also a lesson and a story for us to continue to hearing here in the years to come. Mr. Speaker, I call Chris Fisher. Well, thank you very much. Uh, Mr Speaker. And, [00:39:00] uh, I just want to, uh, agree with what Mr Robertson's said in the house so far. Uh, this is a profoundly important, uh, bill, uh, for New Zealand's Parliament and for our democracy. Uh, and it's fantastic that it will, I believe, receive unanimous support in the parliament and 32 years on from homosexual law reform in 1986 and the rancorous, uh, antagonistic, putting it mildly, [00:39:30] uh, debate and the tortured passage of that piece of legislation through the parliament on a personal vote, a conscience issue. Members divided morally and politically. Uh, and, um, engaged, some of whom Some of them engaging in appalling behaviour 32 years on from that, uh, it's just a testament to how far we've come as a country that, uh, we will have a bill before the house [00:40:00] that not only affirms homosexual law reform in 1986 but actually seeks to wipe from the record books, uh, convictions under the law as it existed prior to 1986. And that bill will pass parliament unanimously. Uh, and the apology that Parliament has given at the same time, uh, that the honourable Amy Adams delivered when she was minister of Justice in the last parliament. Uh, because of the bill [00:40:30] passed unanimously, Parliament is every single person to a man and a woman, uh, endorsing, uh, that message of reconciliation and of, um, justice and doing justice to be more precise I do want to echo what Grant Robertson said in his remarks about how we have a long way to go, Uh, in that strive for equality and tolerance in our society and creating a New Zealand where [00:41:00] every young person in particular, uh, no matter their sexuality or their gender, uh, can grow up living in a society where they feel they are valued and they feel that they are they are respected. Uh, and that, uh, they are acknowledged, Uh, and their dignity is upheld. Uh, we have a long way to go. We have come a long way. Uh, but we have a long way to go, and I'm looking forward to being part of that conversation, uh, as [00:41:30] we move forward into the 21st century. It was a privilege to work on this bill, um, in the Justice and Electoral Committee in the last parliament and the renamed Justice Committee, uh, in the new parliament. Uh, it's a shortened committee title, but we seem to have picked up double the work because law and order has been folded into us. Um, and, uh, I see my colleague Raymond Ho, Uh, perhaps a bit because, um It looks like from, uh, the order paper. We're going to get even more work, Uh, over the next few months. But that's OK. We're very hard [00:42:00] working committee. Um, and, uh, I know members from both sides really enjoyed working on this new colleague, Uh, Greg, uh, O'Connor from And, uh, Jenny Anderson from Labour, Uh, and rarin from labour as well. We really enjoyed working on this really important bill. Um, and I think we've made some useful changes, actually, Uh, Madam Speaker, um, we, you know, we interrogated the substance of the bill really closely. We really did, uh, get really down into the weeds of the bill because the operation of the expungement regime is [00:42:30] of vital importance to, you know, the purpose of the bill, Uh, and giving effect to what? What the purpose of it is, which is to wipe from the statute books and wipe from the record books. Uh, the the history of that conviction and the conviction, uh, itself and, um, members previously have gone through some of the, um, quite technical changes we've made around, uh, criminal records. Uh, what official records means, uh, amending the definition of a sponge conviction in [00:43:00] section uh, in in section nine. And clause nine of the bill. Uh, and those are very useful. Uh, changes. Uh, Madam Speaker, um, enough. The only thing left for me to do, uh, madam Chair is to commend the bill to the house. And I'm looking forward to its speedy passage through committee of the whole and also its third reading I call Jan Logan. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Um, it's also with great pleasure that I rise to speak to this the second reading of the criminal records [00:43:30] expungement of convictions for historical homosexual offences bill, um, and want to share the views and the sentiment that's being expressed in the house tonight of the importance of this bill and also, um, acknowledge the origins of this and the fact that I think it's also a victory for the parliamentary process and democracy in itself where we'd had quite [00:44:00] a few years of members of the LGBT Q i community calling for the expungement of homosexual con actions, and that seemed to be falling on un hearing ears. And then, um, a young person put together a petition that and got over 2000 signatures which was presented to parliament asking for an [00:44:30] apology for, um, those who were convicted of homosexual, um, crimes and for this legislation. And through that process, the view of the government changed and to the point that we now have unanimous support in this house for the apology previously and now this legislation to expunge those [00:45:00] convictions. And it is a wonderful thing to see that working effectively. Um, I, too, just want to, um, echoes some of the sentiments that were in the submissions and noting that while the primary purpose of this bill is to seek to reduce prejudice, stigma and all other negative effects arising from a conviction for historical homosexual offence, um [00:45:30] that this legislation which is so significant to those men and their families because lives were ruined and ended early as a result of the prejudice that was created by our laws, the impact has also been wider, and the significance of this legislation is wider. And I would also like to quote from the submission from Ted Green Smith West that Grant Robertson also previously, [00:46:00] um, referenced as well, where he was saying that as a younger, um, queer man that for him The primary purpose of this bill was that this is an opportunity to recognise and address the wrongs of the past, to remember and recognise the sacrifice of these brave gay and bisexual men and to pave the path forwards so that as a society [00:46:30] and as a parliament, we never make the same mistakes again. And for me, that's there's a lot of things in that short statement. It's about recognising the harm and the wrongs and how profound they were, but also recognising that journey of sacrifice for those men, many of them who were got those convictions from being brave [00:47:00] enough to push against that prejudice, to try and still express themselves love in a way that created a crack that opened up to enable the later homosexual law reform that enabled people like me and others to stand in this house, stand in our identity, um, proudly. And that was an extraordinary sacrifice that so many of us have [00:47:30] benefited from. And it also speaks to the point that has previously also been made is that we still have a long way to go to remove prejudice and discrimination and totality from our law books and from our society and that still too many members of the LGBT Q I play a plus community, particularly trans and intersex. People suffer very [00:48:00] severe discrimination, and their lives, too all too often end early because of that discrimination. So this piece of legislation is significant. It places our history in front of us to enable us to make choices about how we move forward. And that is a challenge to us as well as a moment [00:48:30] to celebrate how far we've come. And I also want to pick up on some points made in a submission, um, from the University Students Association Queer Support Group in Dunedin, where they talk about, um that this legislation tells young people that the Ile IEG illegality [00:49:00] of homosexuality was a thing of the past and that some wrongs can be righted, not reversed, but right, it and that diversity is important and needs to be celebrated and not shunned. And I think that calls us to action. Still, they also made a point that I think is worth repeating later on in the submission where they spoke about and, [00:49:30] um, as young people talking to older gay men that had experienced this legislation and living in the environment of this legislation. Where, um, this person had spoken to an older man and he was talking about when he was stopped by police when he used the public toilets, because he was indecently exposing himself to other men in the toilet when he was only using the bathroom. And I think [00:50:00] that story for me speaks to how pervasive the impact of that law was. It was not just the harm that was done to the men who ended up convicted and living lives, stigmatised by that conviction and spending time in prison for being who they were. But it was the environment that was created for [00:50:30] many, if not many men who had to live in a way that was unnatural to them, to be able to try and protect themselves from that prejudiced law. And that that man had spoken as well about how he married a woman at 23 as many of his friends did, because that is what you did. That was what you had to do to hide and protect [00:51:00] yourselves. And obviously that would have had a profound impact on his life as well as the lives of the women that these men married and their families. So there is much for us to fix. And it is great to have this legislation in the House to be able to enable the expungement of those deeply wrong, um, convictions. And I would like [00:51:30] just to touch on two some of the points in the work that was done in the committee to make sure that it better reflected the intent of this house to ensure that it, um, would address the issue for people travelling internationally and not just limit it, um, for providing that expungement and um in New Zealand. And that also, [00:52:00] um, that there was a change to from criminal records to official records so that it's similar to the clean slate bill and affects a wider set of records and thus better protection. And a more complete, uh, implement, I guess, enables a better implementation of the intent of the legislation. And I also too, want to finish on the point about the call for compensation and [00:52:30] hope to see wider discussion of that either in this house, through the debate on this bill or within government, and would again touch on, and I know that there were different views presented in the select committee of some men saying, and people saying that was not the point of this The point was to make it clear that this law was wrong and to expunge those convictions. It wasn't about money. I would, though, point [00:53:00] that in one of the submissions. The example was given of international recent international precedent in Germany, Um, where compensation has been provided and men were expected to receive about 4760 New Zealand dollars in compensation for their convictions, plus 2380 for every year they spent in prison. It's not huge. It's doable. We can do this if I call Matt [00:53:30] King. It's a pleasure to speak on this bill, uh, which we all support. Uh, quite frankly, it's a NO-BRAINER. I'd like to acknowledge the honourable Amy Adams for the large amount of work that she carried out on this important piece of legislation, which was referred to the Justice Select Committee last year. I'd also like to acknowledge the current government for reinstating this important piece of legislation, and I'd like to acknowledge the current Justice Select Committee chair Raymond who? Who does a fantastic job as part of this, uh, current Parliament's [00:54:00] Justice Select Committee. I I've heard some pretty convincing and emotional submissions from people grossly affected by these outdated laws. Quite frankly, this legislation is well overdue. It allows people that have previously been convicted of sexual specific sexual acts that in our modern society are now not considered criminals to stand before us and declare that they are conviction free. This fact is very important for many men we've heard [00:54:30] from. In my view, it's pointless having offences such as these removed from the statute book without having this expungement legislation to accompany it. We have heard some harrowing submissions from members of the public about how this has affected their lives, and I want to recount one particular story which stuck with me. We heard from this poor man who recount who recounted how many years ago, at the age of 19, [00:55:00] he had been caught and convicted of a sexual act with another male, an offence which has now been removed from the statute books but back then was illegal. He had been employed in a chosen profession which I won't disclose for privacy reasons for over 30 years, very successfully, he decided to take some time away from his profession and return to it. A few years later, on returning, he applied for [00:55:30] two different jobs and he would have been successful but for a refusal due to failing to pass the background checks based on his prior conviction. Now this background check by an anomaly included references to sections covering sexual offences which are not relevant today due to the removal of the offence from the statute law. Ultimately, he was devastated by this, and it eventually led to suicide attempts [00:56:00] and a very low point in his life. I felt that there was no one in that select committee room that day that did not feel this man's pain. It's one of the reasons why I became a politician to help right the wrongs. Accordingly, we support this very worthwhile and life changing legislation. We see. I called Ginny Anderson. [00:56:30] This is a split call. You have five minutes. This bill is part of a progressive journey for want of a better word of, uh, change in New Zealand. And I'm proud to see, um, that there is agreement across the house on making positive change that directly affects the lives of many New Zealanders. I vividly remember as about seven or eight years old coming out on the streets of Christchurch after a family meal to [00:57:00] stumble into a protest on the streets, and I'd never seen anything like it before. I'd never seen people so angry people calling out obscenities at one end words that I was never allowed to use at home or even at school and on the other side, people calling out out of the closets and into the street. I didn't know what it meant. I remember asking my parents, What was it about? Why were these guys in the cupboard anyway? And and why couldn't they be out and [00:57:30] learning about the types of discrimination that had happened in New Zealand? So I'm really proud to see this journey come so far that the Homosexual Law Reform Act in 1986 in some ways is being, um, let to take its full course by this piece of legislation that removes the stigma and the discrimination of those that were wrongfully convicted under that previous legislation. So I am I'm proud to be part of that. [00:58:00] I'm also, um, proud as a new MP to this house. For this to be the first piece of legislation that I have spoken on at second reading that I've directly heard submissions from from members of the public and as we've we've heard already. Some of those submissions were really moving. Uh, and it's a It's a great as a as a former public servant who only got to write papers and draw diagrams to be able to directly engage [00:58:30] with the public and understand firsthand about how laws can impact on people's lives and to be grateful of the opportunity that we have here to undo those wrongs. While this legislation can't undo the hurt that was caused, I hope and I'm sure others here do today hope that this will help, uh, to to patch up to help move forward and to create a better country for people going forwards. While [00:59:00] we are reminded when we look at how far we've come in my lifetime, from when I was a a child, seeing those protests to where we're at right now, we still have a long way to go and We have a long way to go further, and I believe that that's our duty to keep changing attitudes, to keep challenging those who choose to discriminate in order to keep that that journey moving. There were two submissions that I'll quickly [00:59:30] refer to, um, and the first has already been mentioned in terms of someone who's had employment opportunities removed from them as a direct result of having convictions under the previous legislation. So this is important that we have a practical purpose, that people should not be denied the right to a job because they're working with Children and they've failed a background check That's unacceptable. That is blatant discrimination, and this legislation [01:00:00] is definitely needed in order to put that right. Well, I also heard from a good friend who's already been mentioned tonight, which is Ted Green Smith West. Um, and he to me really represented at Select Committee, a new generation of young people in the LGBT community that aren't prepared to sit back, who want to take action, who are prepared to be politically active and want their voices heard, and that is encouraging. So I see this legislation as twofold [01:00:30] as fixing those wrongs but also providing a new environment of hope and of giving young people a country where they can be proud of who they are. And that is so important that we have those young people prepared to step up and take that. Finally, I would like to acknowledge the work of Amy Adams, who, uh, the deputy chair of that committee was passionate also about this legislation. As the former minister of Justice, she had expertise in this area [01:01:00] and knew the legislation very well. That facilitated my colleagues here today from the Justice Committee to fully understand legislation quickly and get to grips with what we had in front of us. So I acknowledge her contribution. I have no further comments. I'm proud to speak on this bill, and I commend it to the house. Andrew, Uh, thank you, Madam Speaker. It's a privilege to be speaking this afternoon. Uh, on the second reading of the criminal records, uh, expungement of convictions for historical homosexual [01:01:30] offences. I'd like to commend, uh, the current Minister of Justice, Andrew Little, uh, for for progressing, uh, the bill, uh, but also commend and congratulate the previous Minister of Justice, Amy Adams. uh, for her dedication. Uh, there's been a lot of talk over many years about expunging homosexual, uh, offences. And I don't think, uh, it wouldn't have happened without, uh, her hard work, Uh, over over the last few years, Mr Speaker. Madam Speaker other. Uh, this bill has been a long time coming in 1974 [01:02:00] a national MP by the name of, uh, Vin Young, who was the father of Jonathan Young. Uh, a friend and colleague of ours, Jonathan Young, uh, introduced a bill to permit, uh, private homosexual acts. That bill was unfortunately defeated, but was revived in the 19 eighties by Fran Wilde. And I'd like to, uh, join other colleagues in a acknowledging her tonight. The Homosexual Law Reform Act was passed in July 1986 and came into effect in August of that year. [01:02:30] The act decriminalised sexual acts between men aged 16 and over. However, convictions prior to that have remained providing a permanent scar for those men who carry them. Madam Speaker. It was an absolute privilege and honour to sit on the Justice Select Committee that, uh, considered this bill. My colleague Amy Adams has already commented on the collegial atmosphere of that bill. Uh, at times it was, I think, eight members [01:03:00] of the committee versus the officials, Uh, rather than, uh, labour versus national, uh, national MP S. Uh, but that's the way it should be on important legislation such as this. Uh, my colleague, Matt King has already commented, uh, on the very emotional testimony that was given at at that committee. Sometimes it was very challenging to sit there and listen to it and hear the stories. Uh, and the experiences that some of these men have gone through, uh, in the past and in more recent years. Uh, I'm conscious that this bill [01:03:30] will never make up for the hurt that those men suffered over many decades. And it won't erase the black stain on this nation's history. I I It is, however, the right thing to do. And I hope it brings some sense of closure for those men and their families. Every member of this Parliament should be proud to see this Bill passage. Thank you. [01:04:00] I call David Seymour. Uh, thank you, madam Speaker and I rise on behalf of the act party to take a very short call. Uh, in support of the criminal records expungement of convictions for historical homosexual offences. Bill uh, I can only join with other members in saying that this is a wonderful occasion to see members from five different parties coming together unanimously [01:04:30] to say that these historical convictions are wrong, they were hurtful and they should be gone. Indeed, it's part of our tradition that we have worked on throughout our history as a nation to gradually expand the sphere of human rights so that people have the right to be who they want to be and act as they wish to act, so long as they are harming [01:05:00] nobody else. The men who were affected by these convictions did not hurt anybody else and what they did, but they were nonetheless victimised by the state Under the laws made by this parliament. It's an important time for us to remember, as lawmakers here in this house, that the power of the state that we are charged with restraining can do real harm [01:05:30] to the lives of innocent individuals. If we get it wrong, that is why we should always exercise restraint in law making. We should always reserve a special place for the rights of the individual when we make laws. And we should always look up to the very basic principle that my choice is what I'm what I choose to do. And if I'm causing no harm, it shouldn't bother you. Your [01:06:00] choice is who you choose to be. And if you're causing no harm, then you're right with me. That is a principle on which to make laws, Madam Speaker. And I am so proud to stand here with five other parties supporting this bill through its second reading because it's the right thing to do. And it signals the continued growth of our modern, sophisticated, liberal and tolerant nation. New Zealand. Thank you, madam [01:06:30] Chair. I'm sorry, I call Priyanka. Rarin. Thank you, Madam Speaker. It is an absolute honour to stand and take a call on the second reading of the criminal Records Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences Act. Um, it was also, um, an incredible privilege. As, uh, colleagues of the Justice Select Committee have said, uh, before me today it [01:07:00] was an absolute privilege to be part of the select committee that considered this bill that heard the submissions to this bill and received advice on it as well. Um, many people I speak to, um talk about the fact that at times things are rather adversarial in this house. And again, as other members have pointed out, um, you know, I wish they could have actually seen us in action at the Justice Select Committee, because that's absolutely how it should be. And it was such a pleasure [01:07:30] to work with members from across the house on this bill and refining this bill. Um, as has been said already this afternoon, this is, um, a piece of legislation that will introduce a scheme to wipe convictions For those, um, who have, you know, to wipe the convictions of historical homosexual offences. It is a progression of change, and it's one that as a new MP, I'm incredibly [01:08:00] proud to be part of, um, it it it follows on from the homosexual law reform bill back in 1986 that was passed by the fourth Labour government since then. This particular, um, you know the previous piece of legislation that actually criminalised homosexual men has ceased to have any meaning. It ceases to have any meaning for us legally today. But Of course, we've heard from those who have suffered for many years as a result [01:08:30] of those convictions, Um, it also follows on from the passing of the marriage definition of marriage amendment Act 2013 that allowed same sex couples to marry legally. And, of course, the apology that was given by the former minister of Justice, the honourable Amy Adams. And at this point, I too, want to acknowledge the work that she has put into the bill. Um, and of course, also our current Justice Minister, Um, the Honourable Andrew Little [01:09:00] for carrying on with this piece of work as well. So this bill, this this piece of legislation goes to the heart of the hurt and stigma that so many have experienced over the years. Young men we've heard who have been arrested and convicted for just being who they are, um, people, men who have lived in constant fear of law enforcement, the health, including the mental health implications of this fear [01:09:30] and the convictions as well. All for just being who they are. And this is really what this piece of legislation does. It celebrates, and it allows us to celebrate who we are. by lifting that stigma and that hurt. So how does this bill work? We've actually heard about, um, the fact that men with convictions for historical homosexual offences can apply for those offences for those convictions to be expunged. Basically, what we're saying [01:10:00] here today is that it never should have happened. And with this piece of legislation, it will be as though it didn't for, um, you know, purposes of applying for a job. Um, and and, um from the from from the legal point of view, it won't completely be deleted from records, because this is a record of of something that's happened and really something that we're not proud of a collective shame. In fact, um, I'll touch on one aspect of, um, submissions [01:10:30] that were considered by the select committee that members haven't actually alluded to so far. And that's the fact that some submitters and I think it was The Human Rights Commission was one of them that suggested that it be an automatic expungement that was considered by the committee. But, uh, the advice that we received was that that automatic expungement wouldn't actually capture everyone who was affected by the convictions and that proactive applications was a better way to go to [01:11:00] ensure that a wider group of people or more people who were who were affected by this could actually apply to have them expunged. We worked incredibly hard to ensure that it went a lot further than the clean slate act as well. Such that it wasn't just that, um, it it, you know, it wouldn't be recorded, but that it actually, uh would the effect would be that it ceases ceases to exist, in essence, from a legal point of view. Um, as was mentioned before, this [01:11:30] does apply to New Zealand law. Um order, order. The member's time has expired. Thank you. And I commend it to the house. I called Tim. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Look, it's a privilege to rise as our last speaker on this bill. And I certainly endorse those comments we've heard previously today and and commend this bill. It is well past time, and it is actually fantastic to see that this is now happening To be able to [01:12:00] expunge these historical convictions, I can just imagine would be such a weight off the shoulders of those people that have had this hanging over their heads unfairly for far too many years. It, I believe, enables us as a country to actually celebrate our diversity. So much better to celebrate the the the uniqueness that we have as New Zealanders to recognise that people are different and something like this should not be considered a criminal act. [01:12:30] So again, I would just like to acknowledge that the hard work of the select committee and pushing this through they've done a fantastic job and hearing some of the stories we've heard earlier today just reiterates the need for this piece of legislation and also just echoing David Seymour's comments earlier. It is a nice recognition to see every party speaking in support of this bill and acknowledging that indeed it is certainly time to address these [01:13:00] concerns and to move forward as a much more open and inclusive society. So, on that behalf, Madam Speaker, I would like to commend this bill to the house I call Raymond Hall. Thank you, Madam Speaker. First of all, I'd like to thank the Minister of Justice, the honourable Andrew Little, for making, uh, this bill one of the government's priorities. Uh, the purpose of this bill is to reduce stigma uh, prejudice and, uh, other negative effects [01:13:30] arising from a conviction. Uh, for a historical homosexual offences. Uh, offence. Uh, the bill is the first of its type in New Zealand law, which indicates the extraordinary nature of historical homosexual offences. These offences were targeted at a specific group in the community and criminalised sexual activity between homosexual men. [01:14:00] This bill demonstrates the government's contribution and commitment to right the wrongs of the past. For those who were convicted of offences prior to the Homosexual Law Reform Act 1986. As the Honourable Grant Robinson stated earlier, uh, it is important to acknowledge that the illegality of homos homosexuality prior to the 1986 [01:14:30] legislation ruined lives. The shame, the stigma and the hurt caused was unbearable for many. On that note, I should congratulate the then Minister of Justice, the honourable Amy Adams, for putting up the bill last year, and I acknowledge her contribution at the Select Committee we had We [01:15:00] had worked very closely at the Justice Select Committee and I enjoyed her knowledge and commitments, uh, to help make the bill what it is now. It is very fitting in my capacity as a chair of the Justice Committee to thank the honourable Amy Adams for her contributions at the committee and wish her good luck and enjoy her new role as spokesperson for finance for, uh, the opposition [01:15:30] party. Uh, I'd like also to thank Matt King and Andrew Flo, who have also moved on to take up other roles in other select committees following the leadership change of the National Party and the subsequent reshuffle. This is the second reading of this bill. I should acknowledge the submitters. Uh, we have received the submissions from 37 submitters. Those [01:16:00] submissions were very helpful, especially concerning the bill's relationship with other piece, uh, pieces of legislation such as vulnerable Children's act. And I'll come to those issues at committee of the whole house. Uh, stage. It is important to acknowledge that the illegality of hoo uh, homosexuality prior to the 1986 legislation, uh, ruined lives. And that's not [01:16:30] only happening in New Zealand, that's kind of a worldwide issue. Many would remember the gay perch campaign in Canada. Uh, the gay perch campaign. Um, the gay pi was a campaign, uh, in Canada, um, to remove homosexuals from military and public service from 19 sixties to [01:17:00] 1996. This was a systematic government policy, and a device was developed to detect uh, homosexuality known as the fruit machine. The device was supposed to be able to identify gay men who were referred to as fruits. The Canadian police collected files on over 9000 suspected gay [01:17:30] men, and as a result, a significant number of workers did lose their job. Uh, discrimination aside, the test was faulty and had no scientific merits. Now I cited the Canadian experience to show it is not easy for us to come to the point of where we are now. So I should acknowledge all those people who had involved in making the 1986 New Zealand [01:18:00] legislation a possibility. Thanks to that piece of legislation, no longer no longer would men having consensual sex with each other be liable to prosecution and to a term of imprisonment. The campaign to reform the law moved beyond the gay community to wider issues of human rights and discrimination. Back to this bill, the bill provides [01:18:30] for a statutory scheme that allows a convicted person or a representative on behalf of the convicted person if they are deceased, to apply to have a conviction. Expunge the secretary for justice uh decides whether the application meets the test for expungement, which is the contact would not constitute an offence. Under today's law, Clause eight set out the test for expungement. The test [01:19:00] again is that the contact constituting the offence then would no longer constitute an offence. Now, under the laws of New Zealand, the test was framed, framed in such a way to ensure that any contact which is considered still to be a criminal would not be expunged. The bill entitles the convicted [01:19:30] person to declare that they have no such conviction for any purpose. Uh, and then New Zealand, the law. The conviction will not appear on a criminal history check or record if the application for expungement is granted in terms of the criminal records or checks. Uh, there are two types of such kind of, uh, records. One is AC MC Uh uh case management system. The other one is catch a criminal and traffic conviction History [01:20:00] report for the purpose of this bill, what I can say is, uh, for those whose conviction been successfully successfully expanded the conviction would not appear on the individual's catch report. The bill identifies those who are eligible to have the convictions expunged. To be eligible to apply, a person must have been convicted of one of the specific offences under the Crimes Act 1961 [01:20:30] or equivalent UH offences under the Crimes Act 19 08, The New Zealand Law Society and Rainbow Wellington do not support excluding uh offences prior to 19 08. Uh, they claim that not that not extending the scope of the scheme to offences prior to the Crimes Act 19 08, seems to be arbitrary and there is no clear rationale behind such kind of a policy initiative. [01:21:00] The committee did consider whether the scope of the scheme should be extended to predecessor offences contained in legislation prior to 19 08. This would eventually include pieces of legislation of the 1800 the relevant UK legislation so far as it uh, it was part of the Law of New Zealand. In practise, the secretary may receive a few applications for offending over this time period [01:21:30] because the convicted persons would be deceased and potential representatives of the convicted persons are unlikely to have knowledge to have knowledge of the convictions. Several submitters raise the lack of compensation as an issue. UH, some submitters are also claim the lack of compensation could be seen as a potential breach of the Georgia Carter principle. Now, Georgia Carter is the name of the city in Indonesia, [01:22:00] I believe where the principle was established, uh, I'll come to that point at the committee of the whole House stage. But, uh, in terms of some issues raised by the honourable Grant, Robertson and other speakers who who spoke earlier, uh, we do acknowledge the importance of conversation. However, conversation goes beyond the purpose of the scheme, which is to prevent further negative effects from the stigma of a conversation. There is no [01:22:30] general principle that a person who is convicted of a repealed offence is entitled to compensation on the repeal of that offence. But I do note the contribution from previous speakers, and I do believe we should keep the conversation open, and I look forward to further debate at the committee of the whole house. Thank you. The question is that the motion be agreed to those of that opinion will say I to the contrary. No, the eyes have it. [01:23:00] Criminal records Ex Expansion of convictions for historical homosexual offences Bill second reading. The bill is set down for committee stage. Next Sitting day call on government order of the day number three.

IRN: 2075
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/wellington_international_pride_parade_2019.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004561
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089855
TITLE: Wellington International Pride Parade 2019
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alan Granville; Allan Lennie; Amanduh la Whore; Andrea Trueman; Anny da Silva Freitas; Art Daniel; Blair McDougall; Brendan Keys; Chris Bensemann; Chris Bishop; Des Smith; Fraser Carter; Garth Bloomfield; Gavin Young; Gerard Wood; Grant Robertson; Hayley Young; Hemi Frires; Jackson Whitham; Jan Logie; Jelmer Snijder; John Jolliff; Julia Barnett; Justin Lester; Kaine Thompson; Katherine Williams; Kelly Adams; Kirsty Farrant; Linda Luong; Louisa Wall; Maaike Fisher; Mari North; Mia Slapper; Mira Woldberg; Paul Eagle; Petrina Chai; Philip van Dyke; Richard Gilhooly; Richard Tait; Sam Stead; Sandy Taylor; Sarah Coulthard; Scotty Matthews; Stephen Phillips; Tangi Walsh; Tania Bermudez; Todd Hamilton-Crook; Tāmati Coffey; Vivian Smith; Wesley Johnson
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1737 Need to Talk; 2010s; Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC); Air New Zealand; Alan Granville; Allan Lennie; Amanduh la Whore; Amy Adams; Andrea Trueman; Anny da Silva Freitas; Aotearoa New Zealand; Art Daniel; Auckland Pride Festival; Auckland Pride festival (2019); Bear New Zealand; Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Act 2021; Blair McDougall; Brendan Keys; Canada; Chief of Defence Force; Chorus; Chorus Corner of Drag (Wellington Pride); Chris Bensemann; Chris Bishop; Christchurch terror attack (2019); Coca-Cola Amatil New Zealand; Countdown supermarket; Criminal Records (Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences) Act 2018; Department of Corrections; Des Smith; Destiny Church; Diversity and Inclusion Council (St John); Dykes on Bikes; Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands; Events; Fire and Emergency New Zealand; Firth rainbow concrete truck; Fletcher Building; Fraser Carter; Fraser Shaw; Garth Bloomfield; Gavin Young; Gerard Wood; Golden Bay Cement; Grant Robertson; Green Party; Hayley Young; Heather Henare-Coolen; Hemi Frires; Hero (Auckland); Hikoi to Out in the Park; Human Rights Act (1993); ILGA World Conference (2019); Israel Folau; Jackson Whitham; Jelmer Snijder; John Jolliff; Julia Barnett; Justin Lester; Kaine Thompson; Karen O'Leary; Katherine Williams; Kelly Adams; Kevin Hague; Kevin Short; Kirsty Farrant; Light Armoured Vehicle (NZDF); Linda Luong; Louisa Wall; Maaike Fisher; Mari North; Mia Slapper; Mira Woldberg; NZ Rugby; NZEI Te Riu Roa; National Party; National Telehealth Service; Netherlands; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF); New Zealand Labour Party; New Zealand Lesbian Social Group (Facebook); New Zealand Police; New Zealand Young Nationals; Nicola Young; Orchestra Wellington; Out at PSA Network; OverWatch (NZ Defence Force); Paul Eagle; Penelope England; Petrina Chai; Philip van Dyke; Post Primary Teachers Association (PPTA); Pride Network (ACC); Pride Parade (Wellington); Pride parade; Pride parade (Auckland); Queer at Council (WCC); Rachel Green; Rainbow Diversity Club (Department of Corrections); Rainbow Rendezvous (WelTec); Rainbow Tick; Rainbow Wellington; Rainbow flag; Richard Gilhooly; Richard Tait; Sam Stead; San Francisco; Sandy Taylor; Sarah Coulthard; Scotty Matthews; St John Ambulance of New Zealand; State Services Commission; Stephen Phillips; Sydney Mardi Gras; Tangi Walsh; Tania Bermudez; Tennyson Street; To Be Who I Am (2008); Todd Hamilton-Crook; Tommy's Real Estate; Tāmati Coffey; United States of America; Upper Hutt Rural Fire Force; Urge bar (Auckland); Vivian Smith; WelTec; Wellington; Wellington Batucada; Wellington City Council; Wellington City Library; Wellington Free Ambulance; Wellington International Pride Parade (WIPP); Wesley Johnson; Weta Digital; Whitireia New Zealand; Winstone Aggregates; Wiremu Demchick; ahi (fire); ambulance; bagpipes; balloons; bear; bisexual; book bike (Wellington City Libraries); clothing; delft blue kissing couple; diversity; diversity and inclusion; division; drag; education; employment; equality; facebook. com; film; gay; hate speech; heterosexual; homophobia; homosexual; human rights; inclusion; indigenous peoples; institutional racism; lesbian; library; marriage equality; minority; motorbike; non-binary; police; pride affinity group; pronouns; rainbow concrete mixer; rainbow police car; rugby; safe space; self identification; social media; suicide; teacher; teaching; trans; transgender; transphobia; uniform; unions; visibility; wind
DATE: 11 May 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Audio from the Wellington International Pride Parade held in May 2019. The parade was originally meant to take place on 16 March, but after the Christchurch terror attacks on the 15th, it was moved to 11 May. A special thank you to the participants and organisers for allowing us to record the parade. This event also marked the Chief of Defence's first participation in a pride parade.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So I'm a green party MP and today I will be for the first time in my life, a dike on a bike which I've got to say, comes at the top of the list for me today. And but right now we're standing in Tennyson Street and people are starting to gather for the parade. And in front of me, I can see the, uh, primary teachers union with a beautiful sign saying Teachers with pride. There's a little contingent so far of the greens and there's a Rainbow Police car and there is [00:00:30] a highland band with their bagpipes, and my Scottish roots are singing as I see them with their rainbow flags on their bagpipes and behind me I can see the Dutch embassies, two kissing boys, inflatables reaching up into the sky. So it's looking appropriately rainbow and fabulous and queer, and we're in May, which for Wellington, I mean, this is an amazing weather for Wellington because it normally it's rainy and windy and it's still windy today. But it's now [00:01:00] I'm going to an existential crisis at the moment about climate change, so this observation doesn't make me feel good, but, you know, we're We're working with what we've got and we should celebrate the good bits. Maybe I don't know. Now, the last time we talked was it was almost It was. It was just over a year ago. So much has happened since then. Should we cover some of that off? So, like, I mean, there was the Auckland Pride parade, which kind of imploded. Did you have any thoughts on that? Well, the greens, [00:01:30] um we marched in the Auckland Pride march and I've got to say, despite the tensions and the sadness I have around the, um, community dividing and imploding, it was beautiful. It was from my experience, it really felt like a difference of walking and being observed by others, um, to being in a massive community, taking over [00:02:00] and I. I found it incredibly special. And, um and I think there was a lot of complexity in that, um, the tensions and the debate and I really hope that we can bring the best of it all together, and and I know that's gonna be hard conversations. Yeah. Uh, also in the last year, we had the passing of the historic homosexual offences. Expungement bill. I know which is amazing, [00:02:30] because I remember, um, Kevin Hague receiving the petition and, um, the debate within the community, which felt like, you know, like, it was the seeds of an idea and to actually then see, and the minister at the initially rejecting it and then changing her mind, Um, which was the minister, I think Amy Adams and then seeing it go through like, it's not that often you get to [00:03:00] see that process happen. And I think it was quite a special and important moment for us as a country. Yeah, we had the, uh, deferral of the gender self-identity bill. I I'm saying deeply if you can't hear that, um, it's just something I find completely gutting. Um, and I, I do not buy the argument that there are, um, significant legal issues to work through. The only [00:03:30] things that I heard in the examples given around that suggested, um, the possibility of rolling back the few existing rights, which I find deeply disturbing. But we are working, um, with, uh, a cross party to try and get us on a track of resolving that because, you know, it's been over 10 years since the human Rights Commission put out their report to be who I am, and this is the first [00:04:00] direct piece of legislative change out of that 10 years later. So to me, it's really important that we do this and get it right. And do you have any thoughts on, Um I mean, we've had Israel Folau in the last couple of days coming up with his anti gay social media stuff. Um, do you have any thoughts about hate speech and whether we can say whatever we want to say? Um so the greens have been, um, really promoting the need for consideration [00:04:30] of our, uh, laws and making sure that they can apply to groups rather than just direct individuals. Um and and I know it's one of those things where we have to make sure that, uh, we're able to have the conversations to progress people's ideas in our society, but and recognise rather than but that some ideas and particularly [00:05:00] an environment where social media is kind of enabling people kind of I don't know, trapping people in kind of these groups of like minded things where things can fester and real harm can result out of it. when their ideas aren't being challenged. I think, you know, we've got to work out how as a country, we protect everyone and move forward and rights. And I think the debate about hate [00:05:30] speech is a critical part of that. And, of course, the most tragic event for generations will be the the the mosque Massacres in Christchurch. Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, and the the heartbreaking part of that of how, on one hand, it was just so completely shocking and shook my sense of who we are as a country. And also the need to acknowledge that, um, muslim communities [00:06:00] had been warning us and that they had been feeling this increase in kind of white supremacy. And those two things, um, can both be true. That we have a real problem with, um, racism as we do homophobia and transphobia, and we can consider ourselves a peaceful people. And those things are not compatible, but can both coexist, [00:06:30] which I guess leads us back to why we have pride parades in terms of visibility and just showing love and support. Yeah, exactly. And, um challenging, um, the negative stereotypes and embracing them and owning them at times. You know, like even down to those things around. Dyke used to be an insult, or, um and and it's possible to own that and claim it and and feel [00:07:00] the pride of it. Oh, and there's my ancestors singing in the background. OK, Mary. So we're walking up Tennyson Street, Uh, before the pride parade, can you just describe for me what we're seeing? Well, I'm standing right beside the countdown truck which has been wearing its pride colours for Oh, my God, more than six months and my local countdown shops got pride flags ever since the first pride [00:07:30] parade. I love the support from the organisation, and I'm sure they've got queer staff. So I just think it's wonderful that my environment has the pride flags in it. And now we've got the fire engines, the fire engines, all co more fire engines, and I know what they are. They've probably got proper names, but I don't know, but fancy how fire engines being an appropriate. I'm delighted with this world because I always think of them as, um stalwarts of, [00:08:00] um uh, the society which need to be need to protect. And now they're being proud and pride covered. This one's called the Upper Hutt Rural Fire. So pride and fire engines are wonderful. And and here's all my friends from lower hut, all the girls from lower hut are here, covered in looking like Lumberjacks and rainbow Lumberjacks. Hello, girls! Yay! Huh? And there's an organisation they selling [00:08:30] pump water with pride flags. So obviously, this is exciting. And here's something that I don't quite know how to handle. And I think it's a It's a tank. It might even be an underwater Submersible tank on wheels, and it's got a couple of pride flags on it. So there we are, the I guess, by the colour of them, the Army and we've got Army in the Pride parade. It's a very exciting vehicle. Chorus are in [00:09:00] our parade, and now we're getting towards that ambulance people. But they ambulance, they are, and they've got the most fabulous, um, wigs. I've got wig envy, rainbow wig, envy for the for the people in Saint John's People ambulance and everybody's got these colourful T shirts on this. We're all we're here for all our communities. Fabulous. Thank you. Saint John's. [00:09:30] Thank you. So here we have Winstons, Winstone first truck and the first cement truck has been rainbow. You know, those great big turning like an enormous great Children's top spinning top? Well, that turns and makes cement. It's got the rainbow colours all over it that will spin when it goes, and it's got little silver stripes [00:10:00] between it, so they have done it beautifully. It's just beautifully painted. What an amazing thing for Is it first or Fletcher? I think it's Firth. Yes, yeah, yeah. So we we've walked Tennyson Street. We're still waiting on a whole lot more groups to come. But what? What do you think when you see all these all these rainbows on Tennyson Street? Um, I think this is a safe place. First of all, it appeals to the safety in me that, um that Wellington [00:10:30] is fine to be queer. It's fine to be queer in Wellington. And when I was walking down the street, people were saying, What is this? Oh, perhaps it's the gays come to town, and I'm thinking now, is this a friendly comment or is this a threatening comment? And they were all friendly comments. They're all friendly, and I think, um We're so popular that even the organisations want to join in with us because it's good to be seen to be friendly with the queers. Now, when did that happen? I'm amazed. I'm absolutely amazed because can you remember [00:11:00] a time when that that wasn't the case? Yes. When I came out, it was dangerous. And we were If I walked down the street with my girlfriend, we were always, um, uh ridiculed and possibly hit. Um, and people with lesbian businesses were firebombed. There were two fire bombings. There was a killing when I came out to the environment that I came out to be queer in was quite threatening. And I was [00:11:30] I was very shy about telling anyone that I was queer. And now people want to be seen as queer friendly, and it's safe to be queer. And we, um we've got human rights, which we didn't used to have, like, we have the right to marry and we have the right to be employed. And that's a recent thing in New Zealand's history. And I'm very proud of that. Very proud of that. Hi, I'm Flying [00:12:00] Officer Hemi frs I'm, uh, with the Royal New Zealand Air Force, and I'm marching today with the New Zealand Defence Force contingent. And what a large contingent today. Yeah, yeah, I think we're pushing up towards about 100 people today, which is a really awesome turnout. Really happy to see it. Not only people, but also you've got some vehicles as well. Yeah, we've managed to, uh, rustle up a LA from the Army to turn out, which is really cool. I think. Unfortunately, this year we couldn't have, uh, an aircraft fly past, but, uh, we'll see if, uh, someone's turned it on the background. I'm not sure. Can you just describe what a lab is? A lab is a light armoured vehicle. The army use it, uh, for [00:12:30] sort of light reconnaissance patrols, Uh, a couple of people inside. And, uh, yeah, they use it for sort of security operations. So why is it important for the defence force to be marching today? Well, I mean, it's important for everyone to be able to march today in celebration of diversity and inclusion. Um, it's really important for the defence force because we've got people from all walks of life. Uh, we love having them here and it's a really important message that, um everyone gets to see that we are an inclusive organisation that loves, uh, everyone, regardless of who they are and what they bring to the table. Uh, because everyone has value to add. [00:13:00] And and that's what we're trying to really bring on board. You're celebrating a 25th anniversary of inclusion. Is that right? Yeah, that's right. So, 25 years ago, uh, it was just after the 93 Human Rights Act came into force. Uh, it's where the New Zealand Defence Force, uh, really started to, um, embrace the inclusion of all of its people. So no longer was it a crime to, uh, to be homosexual while serving, uh, 25 years ago Today is a really interesting time for a large majority of the organisation who are right under their age. So lots of our young people today never [00:13:30] lived in a world where, uh, it was a crime to serve in the, uh in uniform when you were a homosexual. Um, but there are some people out there who have some stories or some experiences from family and friends, and it's really important that we sort of celebrate where we've come from and the the leaps and bounds We've come forward, uh, in that 25 year time frame and you've now got an organisation. What? Overwatch? Or it's more a group, isn't it? Within the defence force. Yeah. So Overwatch is the defence forces are prior to finish group, uh, our LGBTI Q plus community. [00:14:00] Um, but also, it's really important that Overwatch reaches out to support the commanders, the friends, allies, families of people. So it's more than just our rainbow community in defence. It's actually everyone that benefits from an organisation that's out to support that diversity. Have you marched in a pride parade before? Yes, I have, uh, we marched in, uh, Auckland Pride in 2013 when it started back after its sort of 10 year hiatus. Uh, that was a really interesting time for us as we we stepped out for the first time in uniform. And, uh, there was some interesting, [00:14:30] uh, on look from, uh, the organisation and from the community. And, uh, we came away as the crowd favourite that day, which is a really heartening message to us about, um how forward? Thinking New Zealand was and accepting its military as, uh, an inclusive organisation on a personal note, What was that like to march on that day? Uh, a little bit terrifying, uh, at first. And then it ended up being an hour of of marching in uniform, which has worked to us. Um, but being cheered at the entire time, and I couldn't keep the smile off [00:15:00] my face. And we're supposed to look very, uh, straight straight laced in uniform, but couldn't keep the smile off my face. Had a really wonderful time and just felt so encouraged that there was this outpouring of love from the Auckland community. You know, for the hour that we were marching down the road that day, it was really cool. And so I'm hoping that today we look the same. Why do you think pride events are important? I think pride events are important because it lets us, uh, demonstrate that we care. Uh, it lets us demonstrate that, um, we make an effort. So, um, all of [00:15:30] our service chiefs here, uh, today are are busy people who have made the time to to come in and march with us, and there is a visible demonstration on their part that they are supportive of diversity and inclusion of the LGBTI Q plus community. And what that should do is philtre down to all levels of command and everyone through our organisation and let the public see as well that even our chief executives are here celebrating that diversity. And, uh, and the rainbow community that's here today. So you're saying that the chiefs of what Navy, Army [00:16:00] and Air Force are here today? Yeah, that's correct. So the chief of Defence Force is here. We have the chiefs of, uh, Army Air, the some component commander from the Navy. Uh, I think I saw, uh, someone from Joint Forces. The warrant officers of the defence Force are all here. Um, there's a huge turnout from, um, our seniors, Uh, there's also the defence attache from Australia who's joined us today. Uh, because they are just in the same place in their journey and and really supportive as well. So we really, truly have a really good turnout of senior representation from the organisation. [00:16:30] OK, we're in Tennyson Street, which is, um, in the centre of Wellington City. We're under our wetter digital Mary which is our pride base here. Um, we are standing next to a giant wetter which has been constructed out of, um, eco balloons, which are 100% compostible. So, um, that's pretty exciting. We've got balloon artists over here constructing, um, uh, wetter that are going to be on people's backs. So, um, and they cater we of all ages. So we've got adults, we've got juvenile, and we've got baby wetter. So, [00:17:00] um yeah. So we're in our pride hub here for we are digital. These are amazing creations. Wow. How long did it take to actually make one? So one of those takes about 40 minutes to make one of those medium sized backpacks which we we're describing as the juvenile. Um, and true with a digital style. Joe leg would be pleased with that. Um, yeah, this big, we, um he's been Yeah, he's he's been he's had a few design changes, and, um, yeah, he's he's really come along. Evolution [00:17:30] at the moment, actually. So how do you think this is going to go in Wellington's wind? Well, that'll be exciting. Um, but yes, but, um, we've got some We've got some really strong gaffer tape, you know, because that's how we roll in the film industry. So we're just gonna Gaff like crazy and, um yeah, and just hang on to it. If I have to jump up there like, grab it and go way up into the air and it'll be fine if I have to jump up there, that's what will happen. Find that will just make the wetter seem more alive and animated with our [00:18:00] wind, Right? So why is it important for wetter to be here today? I think it's I mean, it's really important for us to show that we support the LBGT I community and, you know, and also just look around you. Everybody's here today, so I think that just says and I'll tell you what the other thing is after what's happened a few months a few weeks ago, this is even more important. It's just sad that it was. We had to cancel it the first time, but I think we've got a wonderful turnout again. But for whether it's important, we want to make sure that we're saying to everybody anyone can work for us. [00:18:30] It's a place that we think it is inclusive, and it and basically it should be open for everybody. That's what it's all about. Yeah, And say to the community, This is important. Not just for but for everybody. That's that's what we're here for. All humans. We support all humans. I think What's nice about representing that, Right? And we What's nice about coming to an event like this is it does show that we not only as support LGBT Q I community, but we also support, um, any minority and anyone who needs support and help, you know, women, indigenous [00:19:00] people, everybody, all humans. So is this the first time that we has been in a parade? No. We actually entered last year, but we just had a little small. We just dipped our toe in the water last year, and, um and we got a taste for it, and we thought, Oh, no, this is us. Come on. Let's see what we can do this year. And I'm really excited about next year. You know, who knows what that's gonna look like. So can you describe what the feeling was like last year, like marching in a parade? We were really, um, surprised, as we walked through the streets, [00:19:30] people actually yelling and waving at us and being really happy to see us, you know, walking in the parade. That was really cool. We didn't expect that. You know, you sort of walking on you feel sort of famous, you know, people are going. Yeah, we and they were waving, clipping from apartments as we walked down Courtney Place, and we all looked at each other and went, Wow, that was amazing. We almost had tears in our eyes, you know? Well, I did, because I cry at the top of the head, but, um, everybody knows that that's OK. Um, but yeah. Um I think it was just that that the people people really embraced us, and we're really happy to see us. And for our LGBT Q I [00:20:00] crew, um we all came together, and now we've We've just built this lovely friendship, and it's really nice, you know? So it's super cool was amazing because we just started decided on it like I don't know how many weeks beforehand we just started a pride initiative as part of the DN. I stuff got diversity inclusivity going on, we to digital, and when we sort of came together. I think there was 19 of us registered to start with, but as we walked through the streets, we had colleagues and stuff that was just jumping in and joining us, and we swelled up to over 40. In the end, by the time we got to the end, so [00:20:30] we actually grew. And as we went away handing out spare t-shirts to our colleagues and stuff that were just in the crowd 100 and 53. So we've tripled more than tripled. I know. Good Segway. Yeah. Six of Hi, I'm Vivian. And I'm I'm, uh, one of the administrators for the New Zealand Lesbian Social Group, which is an online group on Facebook. And what brought you to pride today? Um, we're here to celebrate [00:21:00] with the rest of our community. I think it's important for us to make ourselves out there in the community. I think the more that we have these events and the more that people see that we're just members of the general public that, um yeah, we've become more accepted. Yeah. How many pride events have you, uh, marched on? I've done the Auckland pride twice and This is my third Wellington. And can you compare what happens in Auckland to what happens in Wellington in terms of pride? Parades? Um, Auckland's obviously much huger Wellington's. It's still quite [00:21:30] new. So, um, it it was much bigger, although that's changed slightly now. Um, yeah, but Wellington's really catching up. It's getting bigger and bigger every year. Do you have any thoughts on on what happened with Auckland Pride this year? In terms of it just seem to kind of have a huge implosion. Um, just lots of differing opinions. Um, they've kind of got it sorted now. So that's good. Yeah. We're just concentrating on making sure that Wellington gets bigger and tell me about your Facebook group. How did that come about? Um, a couple of us. Um, Rachel Green is actually the one that started [00:22:00] our group. Um, just a group where young New Zealand lesbians can go to talk about the community. Some youngsters that are coming out and need a bit of support from the community. Um, yeah, we're a very diverse and inclusive group. So is the, um, kind of online groups now, is that the the way that people are meeting each other and socialising. Yeah, that's a good way. And I think it's a good start for, um, youngsters that are, um, starting to question, Um, yeah, it's just a place to to [00:22:30] go and to be able to meet people without the face to face confrontation, to start off with. Just Yeah, it's a good starting point, I think. What are the biggest issues? Do you think facing kind of rainbow communities in New Zealand today? Um, people making the assumption. I think that, um, you know, we have marriage equality now, and, um, we should just suck it up and, you know, fit in with the rest of the people. But, um, we still got a long way to go. And, um, I think we should still be celebrating what we've achieved so far. [00:23:00] Are there any particular things that the, um community should be focusing their energies on? Um, I suppose just the at the moment Transphobia seems to be one of our biggest issues. And, um, our group is extremely accepting of, um, trans lesbians. A lot of groups aren't um, yeah, we just wanna make sure that we focus on the fact that trans women who are do consider themselves lesbians are accepted by the rest of the lesbian community. Is that quite a thing in the, um, kind of lesbian community at the moment, in terms of [00:23:30] acceptance or nominal acceptance? Yeah, sort of. I think you know, the lesbian community is quite aware of, um, the turf that they call, you know, the trans exclusionary? Um, yeah. So we are in the lesbian social group that we run. We just focus on making sure that those people are included and they are accepted in our community. Can you describe for me what it's actually like too much in a private? Oh, my gosh, it's amazing. The public, um, on the sides of the streets, cheering [00:24:00] and the excitement of being in our community. It's a celebration. It's like, the most fun. It's always enjoyable every year. Um, my name is Kane. I've actually volunteered to be a member of the, uh, Wellington International Pride Parade Board. Um, my day job is I work for council. But of course, I'm happy to be here to support uh, the parade today. We're expecting about 1800 people to be participating today. Um, a number of vehicles, some of them quite interesting. Um, so hopefully today goes really well. Now, this is happening in [00:24:30] May, but it was originally planned for march. WWW. Why the change? Um, obviously, there was, um Christchurch happened, and we were booked to, uh, have our parade on the 16th of March. We felt at the time, Obviously, it's not appropriate for us to be out celebrating and partying. Um, we wanted to stand with the rest of New Zealand and acknowledge that something bad really bad had happened in New Zealand and that it was appropriate for us to wait. And we think that, um now is the appropriate time. So the mosque massacres happened on the Friday and the parade was due for the Saturday What was [00:25:00] that like in terms of having to to to one think about cancellation or persuade or and and reorganising it? I think like all New Zealanders and like everybody all around the world, we were shocked. And our first, uh, reaction, of course, is as human beings. We were sharing, um, empathy and care for the people of Christchurch. Um, obviously, our next task was then to consider what we would do with our parade. We met quite late on the Friday night. It wasn't the best, uh, obviously time to be meeting. But, um, we had to meet to discuss whether we cancelled or [00:25:30] whether we postponed. And we felt that, um, we wanted to be an event that in time people of Wellington would look to and say, Yes, it is time to regroup. It is time to stand back up and reclaim our lives back and our lifestyles. And, um So that's why we went ahead with a couple of months after you were saying that there's around 1800 people going to be turning up today. Can you, um, just paint a picture of some of the groups that are going to be marching? Um, um, there are 1800 people, 41 groups from all walks of life from the New Zealand Defence [00:26:00] force through to small community organisations who represent parts of the LGBT Q I community, um, through to the local council, through to, um, energy companies and a whole range of people. So we are about making sure that operator is diverse and inclusive, and anyone who wants to work with us is more than welcome to walk with us. So organisations say, like the police in corrections Will they be marching and will they be marching in uniform? Um, we have welcomed the police here today. We have said to the police that it's not our our decision to, uh, determine [00:26:30] for them what they will wear and what they won't wear. Um, we wanted to take a slightly different approach in in Wellington. Uh, we recognise that there are cultural concerns around the country, and we we're making our own decisions, and we've worked with the police to say it is your choice. Um, And again, this is about us being diverse and inclusive. Can you just describe for me the parade route through Central Wellington? Um, it will start here in Tennyson Street, um, which is just behind Courtney Place. And then it will move to Courtney Place all the way along through to Taranaki Street and then to the [00:27:00] waterfront. Um, so pretty simple, really. But, um, it will take longer than we think. Probably for for someone to walk a distance of about 1. 5 kilometres to the waterfront. It will probably take about an hour. So, uh, it should be great. Should be fun. And this year, you you've got a couple of stages dotted throughout the event we have, um so we're starting with the chorus corner of drag. Uh, couple of well known, uh, drag performers will be, uh, at the first corner at the next corner, we'll have a stage set up with performances from cultural groups from around Wellington, including [00:27:30] the NZSO uh, Wellington Orchestra. And then through to the waterfront, we will have a DJ playing. So, uh, and that's, um, people wanting to talk to me. So, um so, yeah, pretty pretty active event today. Lots of people around. And hopefully, um, a great day. My name's, uh, Inspector Chris Penman. I'm the acting district commander for Wellington District today. I'm here with a large contingent of the New Zealand police, um, to celebrate, uh, with with the rainbow [00:28:00] community and the so fantastic day when you say large, How many people are participating? About 60 police from both police national headquarters from the the Royal New Zealand Police College from Wellington district and from and from, uh, certainly from the probably the lower North island. And I see you're in a variety of clothing. Some are in uniforms. We've got T shirts. Can you describe, uh, what people are wearing and why they're wearing what they're wearing? So we've got, um we'll have staff here that are on duty that will be looking after, [00:28:30] um, just on the outside of the parade, looking after things for for us. And then we've got staff that are off duty, but here in uniform, uh, our constabulary staff. And then we've got our non constabulary staff who are are here in the rainbow t-shirts and with, uh, police identification as well. So and then we also got our Pacifica patrollers and our ethnic patrollers. So, uh, who are supporting us as well? So the Auckland Pride parade had some issues with police wearing uniforms. How was that resolved in Wellington? [00:29:00] Uh, we haven't experienced any of that down in Wellington. Nothing at all. So it hasn't been an issue for us at all. Taking on, um, that Auckland experience with the Auckland Pride parade. Um, have the police, uh, changed how they deal with Rainbow Communities. We've had a really close, uh, liaison and relationship with the, um the Pride Pride parade organisers over the last, probably six months. Plus, um, So it was all about making sure that we had strong communication, that that we weren't necessarily, [00:29:30] um, doing anything that, uh, wasn't in step with what? Their arrangements, what they wanted to achieve with the parade. So have you mentioned in a pride parade before? Yes, last year. And how was that? It was great. It was, um Look, I would have would have liked more people to have been in the parade and supporting the parade, and, um, look at already, I can see that there's a lot more vibrant even this year. So, um, year on year, I expect it's gonna build. So why do you think pride parades are important [00:30:00] to celebrate diversity in our community? Um, we want to make sure we are here and, uh, demonstrating that we have diversity in our organisation, that diversity in our organisation is important, that we need to reflect the community. But we also need to actually support the rainbow community. Um, and in celebrating the pride, pride and celebrating diversity in in in all all our communities, my name is Kirsty Farran. And I'm here with PPT a The secondary teachers [00:30:30] union. So we've got to ban our teachers with pride. And how many are going to be participating today? That is a big, unknown question. Um, I'm hoping that we're gonna have a reasonable group of, um, teacher, uh, LGBTI, plus teachers and allies in our group. We've also joined this year with the NZD I, which is the primary teachers union. And I've got no idea how many of them are coming, so it's a surprise for us all. And will this be a walking float or you You've got vehicles involved? Oh, no. We just walk. We don't do [00:31:00] vehicles, but you're you're wearing some some pride stuff. Uh, yeah, we have a, um a union, um, pride t-shirt that I wear to all events like this. Um, and I guess the reason we come to things like this is because I think it's really important that teachers are visible in this space. Teachers are often the first people that students will come out to in their journey, and teachers are really responsible for making schools a safe space for our young people. And we're conscious that, um, that's not always the case. So, [00:31:30] uh, that's why we're here so that we can be visible and, um, show our support for young people. So what? What? Why do you think? Uh, pride events like this are important. Um, I think pride events are really important because they provide a space for members in the community who don't feel, um, out particularly out who aren't out to see themselves represented. Um, if I use an example, there's a whole lot of teachers who still don't feel safe to be out in their schools. [00:32:00] And if they can see teachers at an event like this along with everybody else, of course, then it may mean that they feel safe to come out in their schools and to therefore be a role model for students in their schools. And what does, uh, marching and pride mean to you personally? Oh, I really enjoy it. Um, partly, I really enjoy the kind of the atmosphere and being surrounded by so many other queer people as a um It's like it's a hugely uplifting experience and III I do it every year in [00:32:30] some form or other normally in the the youth. But this year, we're back in the, um, big event because the didn't go ahead. But it's I just find it really uplifting to be surrounded by so many people in such a positive atmosphere because so often, um, sexuality and gender diversity can be a source of tension. And, um, you know, you just have to look at recent media and social media issues around that, so it's really nice to see something positive in the community. Speaking of tension, there has been some tension earlier this year [00:33:00] with the Auckland Pride parade and, uh, mainly around things like the police marching in uniform. Do you have any thoughts on that? I, ah, I try hard not to get involved in that sort of stuff. I One of my biggest challenges is around, Um, one of the kind of issues was around institutional racism. And what really worries me is if we take out organisations who are institutionally racist, then there's gonna be a huge There's gonna be no one left [00:33:30] in the parade. And so I think, um, you know, you could argue that there's aspects of certainly aspects of education that are considered that they have evidence of institutional racism, so that that really worries me that if we start to put that kind of lens on things, that that can become a bigger thing. Um, but apart from that, um, for us, it's just really important to be visible and in the parade, What do you think? Uh, some of the biggest issues facing rainbow communities are these days. [00:34:00] Um oh, that's a tough question, I I One of the big issues, I think, is fracture and division within the broader community. And we're not big. Um, And if we start to become more fractured, then that makes that creates all these sort of divisions. We need to work collectively to get change and some of those divisions I find really difficult to handle. Um, so I'd really like to see a more sort of collective approach to lots of things. [00:34:30] Um, I think we still have issues for many of our, um, for many of our transgender members around, Um, I work for a union, so I worry about workplace issues so around, um, security and employment. Um, the same could be said for, you know, sort of lesbian and gay members as well. But that's and and by members, actually, but we've sort of where I see the biggest evidence now is for our Trans members who are often really, um, persecuted in workplaces and have great difficulty. And [00:35:00] within schools, I think our young, transgender and gender diverse students are the ones that are having the roughest time. So I'm I'm 23 years old. Um, I'm here on behalf of our company in New Zealand. Why is it important for Air New Zealand to be here? Oh, I think it's It's a company value that we have is like being yourself and, you know, being welcoming and everything. And, uh, something they really push is individuality and being unique. So if a company like, you know, that's so [00:35:30] proud of it and so broad, Um, I think it's very important for us to be here to show everyone that we are proud of it. So being here to support everyone. Yeah. Have you marched in a pride parade before? No. This is my first. Yeah, First time. Uh, so what do you What are you kind of thinking we like? Well, I just from picturing like, uh, like previous ones that I've seen, you know, it's vibrant. It's happy. It's about um, celeb. It's a big celebration. That's what it is. So I think it's all of that is just is what I'm expecting. [00:36:00] I think it's what what will happen today. So, yeah. So how many people from Air New Zealand are marching? Um, I think within our our float and everyone who's supporting and helping with New Zealand, there's about 100 of them. So it's quite a big, quite a big group. Yeah, and can you describe the float and also what you guys are wearing? So everyone that we've got a range. So we've got people who are like wearing t-shirts like us. We've got people who are dressing up in drag. Um, we have our management who are in their uniforms, and so there's a big range of things. Our float consists [00:36:30] of our company vehicles. Um, they've got a truck and they've got, uh, banners and rainbow everything. So, yeah, why do you think, uh, pride parades are important because it's it's a statement. You know, it, it's it's letting everyone know that I don't know if you haven't come out or if you haven't discovered who you fully are or anything like people are here to support. And there's there's all these companies. Everyone throughout New Zealand is here to to showcase that and it I feel very supported in it. And I feel [00:37:00] if anyone wants to come and experience it and feel it and be a part of it, and they could obviously take something away with them, So I feel it's very important. Yeah. So my name is Hayley Young. I'm one of the lead marshals for the countdown float. My name is Patrina Chai. I'm the events coordinator for the National Telehealth Service. And we're here representing 1737. Need to talk. Firstly, what's a lead marshal do? So a lead marshal is basically [00:37:30] just in charge of making sure that everyone stays a safe distance away from the vehicles and just making sure that everyone's safe. Um, it's I basically just came here. We're gonna, um, get organised when the rest of the team gets here so they know where to go. And that sort of thing. Is this the first parade you've been in? No countdown, actually. Um was in the Pride parade last year as well. Um, it was our first year last year and It was a lot of fun. So, um, we decided to do it again this year with [00:38:00] our, uh, one of our online trucks. We get it wrapped up in some pride, um, stickers and stuff, and it's It's really awesome. It's a lot of fun. Can you describe the feeling of what it's like to march in a pride parade? Basically, for me, it's an overwhelming feeling of community. Um, the sense of community and coming together and support that you feel, uh, when you're walking in the Pride Parade just, you know, like it shows how important [00:38:30] inclusion is for New Zealanders, and it shows how important it is in our, you know, Wellington is a pretty small community and for so many people to get behind and support the Pride parade, it's amazing, like it's it's fantastic to see all the support that comes out. Um, it's really overwhelming walking down the street and seeing how many people come out and and support and to to see everyone who is supporting Um, it's fantastic. And you're here with, [00:39:00] uh, need to talk. 1737. What is that? So 1737 is the national mental health and addictions helpline. Um, we're just over a year old. We're run by the National Telehealth service. So we also run health line, the Depression, helpline, alcohol and drug helpline and many, many more. And we are one of the sponsors this year. Why is it important to be part of a pride parade? It's about inclusivity and, um, community. It's just making sure everybody knows that, you know, [00:39:30] they're accepted and cherished and looked after. What does pride mean to you? Pride. Um, to me, pride means being accepted, Being proud of who you are and just not being afraid. Yeah, and, you know, just feeling loved. You know, um, pride to me is all about inclusivity. So for ages and ages, you know, the gay community and everything [00:40:00] they had to hide. And now pride is about being proud of who you are. It's about being yourself and the community. Um, pride is about making sure that everybody is supported and everybody has a way to be themselves. How are you gonna go walking with this wind and these signs? We'll see. No idea. I already feel like my fake eyelashes are gonna blow me away. So, [00:40:30] um, we have balloons coming, so I'm a bit worried about that. But, hey, it's all about having fun and showing the community that, you know, we're here for them. Yeah. Guth Bloomfield and I work for AC, C and AC. C is in the parade today. Absolutely. Yeah, we've got a, um, walking float. So we've got probably 30 40 people joining us, which should be really fun. Yeah. So how easy or hard was it to get 30 or 40 people wanting to be [00:41:00] in the parade? Really easy, actually. Um, all it really took was an email to our buildings and lots of really keen people and, um, really, quite quite easy to organise. And And we we got funding as well, which is great. So we have and a banner, so yeah, real easy. And so this is the what? The second year you've been in Wellington? Yeah. We've been in the Auckland Pride parade previously, and then this is our second year that we've been involved in Wellington. Can you describe what, uh, last year's parade was like when you were marching? Um, fantastic. You know, it was a little bit never been in a parade before wasn't knowing what to expect. You know, what [00:41:30] would people's response be to AC C being in the parade? But it was really supportive. And everyone who was in the parade just loved it and was really keen to come and do it again this year. Can you describe, uh, the the feeling that it gave you just really proud to be part of the community and to be and a bunch of people who are celebrating diversity and celebrating the people we are. I just felt, you know, it was it was a great feeling, you know? Really, really elated. Yeah. So, diversity and AC C How is diversity managed in AC? C? Yes. So, um, diversity [00:42:00] and inclusion has become more and more important. And actually, as a result of, um, us being involved in the parade last year, you know, somebody said, Hey, I'm really interested in starting up a private network at AC C. Uh, so since then, that's gone live. Um, and we've now, um, organically grown. And we've got people in different sites of AC C who join in when we have meetings by video conference, and, uh so originally, you know, more and more things are happening with our pride network. And so it really sort of became the launch pad for, um, the community being a bit more visible at AC C. But it's something that AC C is really strong [00:42:30] on and really wanting to do a lot better. So you know, it's exciting. And so what does your internal network, Uh what what do they do? So we're just sort of still forming? Um, you know, we had a launch. Um, even the Minister for AC C came along, which was great. Um, but ideally, we want to be a supportive environment for people, um, to talk through some of the issues that still face the organisation, both for our staff and also our clients, Um, and also supportive for people. Maybe that aren't safe. Don't feel safe being out at work or ready to be out at work. So really, you know, a place [00:43:00] to come together to discuss issues, be a help for the organisation, but then also supportive for our network as well are are you able to mention just some of the issues that that still need working on? Yeah. So, um, you know, one of the issues we are looking at at the moment is that you can only have male or female in our co system when you lodge a claim. So for non binary clients, you know, that's that's not a good thing. So that sparked a really good conversation around the organisation and how we fix that, Um, had lots of inquiries about, you know, how do we, uh, work with transgender clients? You know what's appropriate and what's not appropriate [00:43:30] and what you know what works for them. So it's been a really good start for a whole lot of discussions at AC C. So So So where do you think that network will go in the future? What? What are you hoping for? Yeah, so I think as we sort of form and get a lot stronger, I think we'll become the voice for the rain community at AC C, but also for our clients. And I think you know, we'll have a much more, you know, bigger input into the policies that get developed. Um, when we're dealing with, especially with, you know, clients in the rainbow community and I think that's got to be a good thing, um and and just, you know, help with people's recovery. Um, if [00:44:00] we are sensitive to the needs they have, you know? So I think, you know, that's where we'd like to see it go. Yeah, today. Why do you think pride events like this are important? You know, I think there's still, um, issues. And I think there's still discrimination out there that the community, um, faces. So it's a chance to get together and be proud of who we are and celebrate who we are. Um, but the thing I enjoy about the AC C, um, you know, floaters we have a whole lot of people who are, you know, supporters. So they come along because they support who we are in our community, and that's really exciting. So [00:44:30] to be strong, um, knowing that there's still discrimination out there, there's still issues we need to work on. We are with the Netherlands Embassy in New Zealand. We're at the Pride parade with our Dutch kissing boys dolls. So they're about 10 ft tall. Um, so they are in in the traditional del blue, which is a Dutch traditional, uh, Dutch traditional dolls. And they've been travelling around the world. They've been at the pride in Ottawa, in Canada, used by the [00:45:00] Dutch Embassy over there. And now they're in Wellington. They've come all the way from Canada, and we're going to use them to show our support for the LGBTI community in New Zealand and around the world. So who came up with a design? I believe it was the embassy in Ottawa. Yes, and now they're here. So how have they been received in other pride parades? Oh, yeah, they've been They've been a great success. And they've been in Wellington for a while as well. They've been at the World Conference in March. We [00:45:30] had them at the King's Day reception at the residence of the ambassador. And now they're here to join us in the parade. Why is it important for the embassy to be here today? Well, we feel it's promoting social acceptance and human rights of LGBT. People here in New Zealand and worldwide is at the heart of our human rights policy. Have any of you been in a pride parade before? I have, but ages ago, so I'm really excited to be a part of it again with the Netherlands Embassy. [00:46:00] Can you describe what that feeling is like? Actually, it's really incredible to hear just to see everyone here. The music is going and everyone's really festive. They're ready to go. Yeah. No, I've I've never marched in a parade. I've been to a parade. Um, I have some friends that are part of the LGBTI community, so I think it's a Yeah, it's a it's a It's a great thing to do to to show show support. Yeah, well, it's the first time to march in it. So I'm very excited. Yeah. And, um, why a pride parade so important? Because [00:46:30] it's important to show that everybody supports human rights for LGBT and that it's not just for the LGBTI community itself that the Dutch Embassy, the Dutch government, but also everybody who feels like they want to step up for human rights. So, uh, I'm Fraser. I work for Wellington City Council, uh, in the libraries. And, um, Wellington City Council is quite a queer friendly employer. Um, and it's also trying to foster a queer friendly city. Um, and [00:47:00] so Wellington City Council is a big supporter of pride. Uh, Wellington and pride in general. Um, And so we love to come out each year, uh, and support the the Pride parade. And this will be the third year. Um, we were definitely in Yeah, last year and the year before, uh, and support the out in the park and things like that as well. Um, so we've got the one of the iconic Wellington crocodile bikes today, and usually it's used by the library as a book bike [00:47:30] giving away free books to people around the city. Um, but, uh, for we, we clipped it up a bit and dick it out and bring it out for the pride parade. And so, what will the, um, city council employees be wearing? What? What kind of costumes? Um, so we've tried to encourage everyone to wear, um, something fire related, uh, to fit in with the theme. Um, but if they don't have anything, they could find anything, then, um, rainbow outfits, But also, uh, Wellington. City Council has produced some t-shirts for the employees, Uh, that say absolutely [00:48:00] fabulously Wellington, um, kind of a spinoff of the of the city's motto. And and so, Yeah, a lot of the staff will be wearing wearing those now. There seems to be a big truck coming our way very shortly. Can you just, um, describe it for me? I think that's the, um, the rainbow concrete mixer. Oh, no. Yes, it is the rainbow concrete mixer. So I believe it's, um, from Fletchers. Um, and they've, uh, cutted out one of their massive con mix. Cover [00:48:30] it in a rain flag. Uh, it's fantastic to see. It's huge. Now, now, Fraser, we we're doing this parade in May, which is in Wellington, is often quite cold and chilly and rainy and windy. Can you describe what the weather's like today? It's beautiful Wellington day. Uh, a little bit of wind, but, um, no, there's there's blue skies a few clouds around, but, um, a bit of sun it's not cold. Yes. No, it's lovely. The wind. The wind is making all the the pride [00:49:00] Flags flutter. So is this the first parade you've been in or you've been in an earlier ones? Uh, this is my third Wellington Pro parade. Can you describe what the what? The feeling is like being in a pride parade? Uh, it's fantastic. There's a lot of support from people along the streets, uh, people come out and, uh, there's people along tennis and street living in apartments, watching the, uh, the parade being put together, hanging out their balconies with, uh, flags and watching everything going on. And the community sort of comes together [00:49:30] for it, which is really, really cool to see why do you think these kind of events are important? Uh, I think it's, um it's It's two things that, um allows the queer community to have, um, have an opportunity to to celebrate and to, um, show themselves off. It brings people together. Um, and it helps, uh, the non queer community in Wellington, um, have some visibility and get involved with the queer community and, um, sort of have some buy in, um, and brings [00:50:00] brings the whole community together. Yeah. So, um, my name's Jackson. I'm the operations process manager for Saint John. And, um, I'm also the North Island representative on the Diversity and Inclusion Council specialising in the rainbow portfolio. So, um, I've organised the team down here, and, um, obviously what? Saint John doesn't operate the emergency ambulance service in Wellington, but it's really important that we you know that we are still here and proud, and our people that are still in Wellington can come out and be their true [00:50:30] staff. So, uh, you you're teaming up with Wellington free ambulance? Uh, well, it's coincidence, actually, that Wellington Free and Saint John are back to back in the parade, which is nice. We have a really close working relationship with Wellington free. So it just makes sense that we're going to have a party together today. So why is it important for Saint John to be here? We know that, uh, there's a lot of work to be done in this space looking after our rainbow communities, and we know that 10% of our workforce is identifies as LGBTI. [00:51:00] Uh, so it's just really important that we show visibility to our staff and to our people and our supporters, customers, patients, um, to know that we're an inclusive organisation and personally for you, What does it mean? Being in a pride parade? Look, it's somewhere where I can come out and be authentically me. And, um, I think it's great to just to be amongst other people that are supportive and, um, show your true colours and just have a really good day celebrating with like-minded people. So when you talk about kind of being authentically [00:51:30] me when you're at work, it's a John. Do you feel that you can be you? Yeah, absolutely. Um, I've been working with Saint John for, uh, 10 years now, and I, I know we've We've come a long way in that time, And, um, I'm proud to be able to be who I am at work. And, um, there's no prejudice or judgement that goes on, um and we've got a really inclusive organisation. We're the only emergency services with a rainbow tick. Uh, and we've done a lot of work in that space to to make sure Saint John is a safe and welcoming organisation for everyone. [00:52:00] So on a practical level, what does having a rainbow tick mean? It just basically means that we are everything that we're doing and our policies And, um, what we do at work is is kind of it's proven that you know that we are an organisation that, um that is inclusive. And I guess it's just nice to have that recognition officially from an organisation who comes in and independently looks at everything. And, uh, you know, other people can know [00:52:30] that Saint John is a safe place to work. So during that rainbow tick, uh, certification process, did you notice a change in the kind of culture at Saint John? Has it? Has it changed the culture? Yeah, I think so. I think, uh, you know, we we now we're much more out, and we're attending pride events throughout the country. We go to winter pride, Auckland Pride. Um, we've done events in Christchurch, and, uh, it's it's more than just attending the events, though we do. We're rolling out a lot of education, uh, particularly to our front line [00:53:00] staff so that they can better treat people. And, you know, a lot of it comes down to education. And, um, just knowing how to, um, how to deal with people from the community, Can you describe for me what it's like being inappropriate? It's just so it's just a thrill of walking down the street with everybody and, um, people going crazy for for rainbow and just being fabulous. II I think it's just great to get that feeling of support from the [00:53:30] crowd. And we, um it's the people that march with us are not just identifying from the LGBTI community. There's, um, these people that identify as heterosexual and they just have the time of their life walking with us and just hearing the the support from the community. So it's really great. My name's Kelly Adams. We're getting ready for the parade. We're right at the front of the parade on Cambridge Terrace. So we're a couple of minutes away from Start. And can you describe what's in front of us? Yeah, we've got some amazing motorbikes and [00:54:00] we've got a track. We've got some special guests on our track, including Karen O'Leary, the famous officer O'Leary from Wellington Paranormal as well as, um, the greens MP Jan Logie. We've got some hot bikes, all types and some very nice people. And is this the first time that we've had dyke and bikes in Wellington? It is as far as we're aware. Yeah, it is. And its current incarnation, this is This is the first time. So it's great. And so have you both, um, been on dykes and bikes before? Uh, no, [00:54:30] I haven't. Um I'm not sure if Tanya has No, I haven't. I'm from Vancouver, and I've seen it all my life And I. I finally made a dream come true to make be in one and actually help make it happen. So how did it happen this year? Um, Kelly and I just said we wanted it, so we made it happen. Basically, Yeah. And what do you think it would be like leading the parade? Uh, well, we we don't know. Really. Um, we're we're hoping there will be loads of people out, um, to watch us. Um, it'll be noisy, that's for sure. The noise is already happening. Um, everyone's [00:55:00] pretty enthusiastic, so Yeah, it's gonna be good fun. Yeah, it's gonna be amazing. Um, we're gonna rev it up. Our hearts are gonna be pounding, and we're gonna be excited, and it'll be great. Why are pride parades so important? Oh, amazing question not to bring it down, but so many people all over the world don't have the same rights we do. So even just having parades here helps them have hope as well. I like to think of that. And I also like to think of people that are still facing [00:55:30] a lot of problems and boundaries like trans folk. So we're here for them. So I'm, um, Steve Phillips, controller for upper rural fire. And so we've got two trucks here today, and about 10 of our crew. Uh, so a little smoke chaser that's been decorated now, and our big flagship tanker as well. That's also been decorated up at the moment. Can you just describe the the decorations? Yep. So, um, rainbow coloured flags and stuff on the side there, um, on both trucks and yeah, Pride parade banner. And, [00:56:00] uh, yeah, and what we've done, uh, separate to that as well, and in anticipation of the first parade has gone out and got some, uh, got some decorations from one of the companies in town just to brighten things up on the day. Yeah. Is this the first time that fire and emergency have have, uh, been in pride as fire and emergency? I believe so. And it's certainly the first time that any of the rural brigades in the Wellington area have participated that we're aware of anyway. But, uh, i'll tell you what, everybody's got stuck in behind it, and, um, it's looking like it's gonna be a hell of a lot of fun. Why was it important to be an appro breed? Well, for where [00:56:30] we stand because we're a volunteer organisation where our particular brigade is. And so we've got all sorts of, uh, different ethnicities, age groups, um, you know, backgrounds and stuff like that. And so we sort of inherently we understand diversity, right at the, you know, at the level that we work with. So, uh, for us, it resonates. Yeah, that's something that we can, uh, we can identify with for sure. What are you expecting from today's breed? Oh, maybe greater awareness. Um, and just the fact, too. I think that we come out the other side of it, and the the Wellington [00:57:00] public and the New Zealand public can see the fact that emergency services such as ours are sinked in with something like this is there's a good message that comes from that as well. Part and parcel of the community, the larger community. Yep. So, um, I am the business development manager for Coca Cola ML, and, uh, we're here with a great team of people to support the Pride parade. Is this the first pride parade you've been in? It is In fact, I've been in Wellington for about 12 years now, and this will have to be my first one, and I'm very excited to be a part [00:57:30] of it. Why isn't it important for Coke to be here today? Um, to show our support for the, uh, LGBT Q community? Um, we very we We were the first company in New Zealand to, uh, get the the the rainbow tick mark. Um, so we're very proud to be a part of that, Uh, and to be the first company to be to to receive that, um so to be part of the parade today means a lot to us and and to the G BT Q members of our, uh, of our staff. So, practically speaking, [00:58:00] what does a rainbow tick mean for, um, a Coke? Um, it means, um, uh, equality. It means that we can come to work, uh, and be part of a a company that supports, um, and and accepts us for who we are, Um, And to be part of a great organisation like Coca Cola and means a lot to the L GB QT members, uh, staff. And for those who want to be part of the organisation. So today, can you describe, uh, what your staff will be [00:58:30] wearing and the kind of float? Right. So we got, um, the, uh, pump ute with us, and we've decorated in the beautiful rainbow colours. Um, we've got, uh, T-shirts, which have got the, um, heart on it. Um, Glitter, um, with, uh, with with with a coke bottle. Um and yeah. So that's what we'll be working today with flying high with our with our pride colours today. How many participants do you think you'll have? Uh, we've got about 15 participants [00:59:00] today. Why do you think pride parades are important? We we are part of a a lot bigger community than just our community. Um, so to show love, um, to everybody else just means that we, um, are are are loved and supported by everybody else here in Wellington. Um, we want to show that everybody is not alone. Um, that we're all in this together and to have communities and, uh, organisations like just expresses that you know, they are with [00:59:30] us and stand by us, no matter what. Hi, my name is Catherine, and I am with the department of Corrections. And Catherine, we're here for the PRI parade. Is this your first pro parade? It is my first pride probe. Yes. And what are you looking forward to? I am looking forward to seeing all the colour and all the heavy faces. Yeah, of everybody here and tell me, is this the first time that corrections has marched in Wellington? I'm unsure because I'm new to corrections, but, uh, yeah, we have got a rainbow diversity Club, which has nearly been formed, [01:00:00] I think, in the past year, um, so part of that diversity group and representation, we come to the pride parade. So how many people from corrections today are marching? Oh, I'm not sure. Maybe about 30 of us 40. Yeah, I hope so. Yeah. And can you describe what you are wearing? Ah, today we all have our corrections diversity, t-shirts. And, uh, we have, uh, them all in different colours. And along with the different colours are different words, including a diversity [01:00:30] inclusion, et cetera. Yeah. So why do you think it's important for corrections to be here today? I think it's important for corrections as a department to stand for all of the smaller groups within the department because we all come together to make the department what it is. And so by celebrating our our groups, our diverse groups, our rainbow and our, uh, different ethnicities, religions and everything. Um, that's what makes the department such a [01:01:00] special and successful department. So the diversity group within corrections, Um what what kind of things do they do? So there is a committee, um, within the Rainbow Network. Um, and they, uh, they meet frequently, and they discuss the inclusion of the rainbow community within corrections. How we can be, um, more represented and supported within the department, um, as well as, uh, coming along to events like this and being able to celebrate [01:01:30] our our differences and our, um, special attributes that we have as members of the department. Now we're actually sitting on Tennyson Street, and there are, like, hundreds of people in a whole variety of colours. Can you describe the feeling the feeling? Oh, I feel ecstatic. So I think that the whole vibe along the street is just it's excitement. It's it's happiness. Yes, it's It's a wonderful feeling. I'm Sam ST I'm president of the young nationals and I'm here with National with pride, which is the, um, LGBT T plus group [01:02:00] within the National party. Um, and we're part of the the Pride community. Why is it important to be here today? We think it's really important to show people that, um, the National Party does have a pride wing to it. We do have a pride element, including the young Nats and our, um, national with pride. Um, and we think it's just really important to show our support for the community and show that we're here and we're out and proud. How big is the group within national party. So it stretches across the country. Um, wouldn't be able to give you a number. Um, but it is cross across the country in every major city, and, you know, we partake in pride events up in Auckland, Wellington, Um, and then different little ones, actually, [01:02:30] in the south island where, you know, you get 25 30 people out to a pride picnic and things like that. But, you know, we make sure we're there for those as well. And so today, um, how many people will be marching? I think we have around 20 people today marching. Yeah. Yeah, which is exciting. We've had a few people, unfortunately, quite sick. Um, time of the year, I guess. But, um, yeah, we're hoping for a reasonable turn out. Yeah. And have you marched in a pride parade before We have? Yeah. So I think this is our second or third year in the Wellington Pride parade. Um, but up in Auckland, we were one of the first groups to start with the, um, pride parade in Ponsonby. Um, so, you know, we definitely have a proud tradition of of being part of these events. Yeah. [01:03:00] Can you tell me what it's like to march in a pride breed? It's a lot of fun that that's probably the best way to summarise it. Um, we really like engaging with everyone and and just the kind of camaraderie and community that you get from everyone out. And, you know, marching is is really energising and a lot of fun. Yeah, And for you personally, um, how does it feel? Great. Really, Really. Enjoy it. This is one of my favourite events of the year. Absolutely. Yeah. So with the national, are there any policies being worked on to do with the Rainbow LGBTI communities. Sure. So, um, within I can only speak within the act because that's my kind of area of purview [01:03:30] of the national park. Um, but we definitely do. So, um, for example, most recently worked with Amy Adams, and she was Minister of Justice around the, um uh, removal of gay historical gay crime. Criminal conviction. Sorry, I was my words, Um, but that was probably our biggest and most recent push. Um, but in general, we have a really strong group of, um, of LGBT plus allies and and members of the community that that work on and advance the the policy agenda. Um, for for that group? Absolutely. What kind of issues are most concerning to Rainbow Community members, Uh, [01:04:00] in New Zealand today. So obviously I don't want to speak for the whole community because everyone's got their own particular issue. But from my perspective, I think it's around inclusivity and making sure everyone is embraced for who they are. Um, and given the opportunity to, um succeed as who they are and live their life as who they are and have the community really wrap around and and look after them. And not just the LGBT community, but the the whole community of New Zealand. Absolutely. Are there any particular bits of kind of, uh, legislation or law that, um, the young nets want to see changed in terms of rainbow LGBTI communities? Um, again, I think most recently, like I said, the the removal of, [01:04:30] um, historical gay crime rate and the biggest piece that we think was really, really important. Um, but we think, you know, supporting, um, legislation that stopped the that stops discrimination against LGT. Plus community is is really important to keep advancing. Absolutely. Um, do you have any thoughts on the, uh, gender self-identity legislation? Um, I haven't We haven't taken an official position on that. Um, so it's up to our members to decide how they how they swing on that on that particular issue. Um, so, yeah, we'll leave it open to the members to decide on that one. Good day. I'm Todd. I'm on the board of the Wellington International Pride Parade. [01:05:00] Uh, here for the parade on Saturday afternoon. How is it shaping up, Todd? It's good. Uh, we've obviously after the events in Christchurch where we had to postpone the parade. Uh, we've still got a really good number of floats around about 38 floats where we did have sort of 43. So a couple dropped off due to, uh, whatever, uh, logistical reasons. But there were some good numbers for today. And can you describe the weather? Because I'm sure Wellington in May is not normally like this. There's a gentle little zier today, which is quite nice, as our Wellingtons know, But the weather forecast as we can see, we've got a bit of sun coming through. It's meant to be all good. It's [01:05:30] only half past one, but I reckon it's gonna be good for the parade. Why are these kind of parades important? Todd, Look, it's all about inclusion. It's all about the community. Um, obviously with the events in Christchurch, it's pretty hard to, uh, come back for something like that. But I think it's important for all members of the community to get together and rally around the people. What was it like? Because the the the the the mosque massacres happened on the Friday night. The parade was due on the next day on the Saturday What was that kind of meeting on Friday night, like so we convened a meeting at my place around about 9. 30 10 o'clock on the Friday night. Obviously, [01:06:00] we took a lot of console from the police from defence and a lot of people like that. But we just thought that the mood of the country wouldn't be accepting for a parade to, um for, uh, diversity and things on a Saturday. So we just thought it's not the right thing to do, So we just postponed it. We didn't cancel it, which was important. We thought postponing it was actually a better way to go. It must have been a bit of a logistical nightmare in terms of like, uh, one, postponing it, particularly when it was happening within 24 hours. It wasn't easy. Like, uh, a lot of the people had spent a lot of time and money and effort [01:06:30] to go on a lot of the floats and the for the parade. Uh, some of them aren't gonna be here this time around, which is unfortunate, but the bulk of the people are. And look, we know that a lot of people spend a lot of money on their floats. So, um unfortunately, it just it it happened. And we just had to take the the temperature of the actual country personally. What do you get out of, uh, being in a price rate? Look, I work for a fairly well known company in Wellington, so we support the community. Um, and it's just great to have everyone on board. You've obviously got, uh, Windstone Transport. You've got New Zealand fire service. You've got the police. [01:07:00] It's all about being inclusive. So it's actually, uh, what? Something. Something that we like to do for the Wellington community. I'm Art Daniel and I'm the organiser for the Public Service Association's out at PS a network which represents the interests of the rainbow community. And what does the out at PS a network do? OK, so we try to make sure that within all of the working places and we have many as you can imagine with PS a being the largest union in the country, we have [01:07:30] over 70,000 members. Our goal is to make sure that all rainbow people, all of the rainbow, are able to bring the whole of themselves to work. And research is very clear that not only is it better for that individual to be their authentic self, it's almost almost always better for the organisation in terms of productivity and success, with you being at the coal face, so to speak. Are you seeing workplaces getting more inclusive, more diverse? Yes, yes, definitely. [01:08:00] In fact, wonderful thing is happening within the public sector. The State Services Commission has been encouraging all of the ministries and state sector organisations to establish their own rainbow networks, and so those are springing up everywhere. In fact, I noticed A CC's Rainbow Network is here today, and even more so, the State Services Commission is encouraging those networks to work together, and a PSA has [01:08:30] also been part of that process. So in the public sector, certainly there would still be some pockets of the employers. We deal with where there are still issues in terms of true equality. So we keep working on trying to improve that. What kind of issues? Uh, well, even just being out, Yeah, and then issues over some of the issues, uh, that are peculiar to trans people in terms of being able to present as [01:09:00] the gender they really are in terms of access to, uh, all gender bathrooms and that sort of thing. Yeah. So, today, uh, you're you're marching in the pride parade. Why are pride parades important? Well, we feel quite strongly that if an organisation is saying that they are rainbow friendly, that they they need to make a statement by being at events that are important to the rainbow community and showing that face, you know, that we're here [01:09:30] and that we support the rainbow community. So how many people are marching today? I think around 15. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And can you describe for me what it's actually like to march in a pride breed? It's really quite exciting. Yeah, there's so much energy. And to see all the variety and the diversity and coming, I'm nearly 65. So I certainly remember the days when I was illegal, and so it's quite amazing to be part of a group. And in a country where [01:10:00] people are accepted for who they are, when was your first parade? I think it was one of the hero parades in Auckland. Yeah, Yeah, I come from a very conservative part of the US, and so I was not actually aware of Pride Parade. So my first one was hero, and I and I actually was on a float for the, um, the AIDS quilt. The the the hero Parades [01:10:30] were huge. I mean, hundreds of thousands of people. Um, tell me what that must have been like. Well, for me, Like I said, coming coming from a background where I'd never seen anything, it was really overwhelming. In fact, uh, I remember telling Kevin Hagg, who was a director at the time, that that I was blown away. In fact, there were tears in my eyes. It was like, Wow, I've come to a country where I can be myself. What do you think? Some of the biggest issues for rainbow LGBTI communities are in New Zealand at the moment, I think [01:11:00] particularly some elements. Some groups within the community still haven't achieved what say gay men and lesbians have achieved, in particular trans people and intersex people. And we need to keep working, I think, to make sure there's true understanding and integration and realisation that this diversity is part of what makes our planet an amazing, beautiful place. So I'm Sarah. I'm the communications [01:11:30] advisor at Wellington Free ambulance. Um, and I'm here with staff and volunteers and supporters of Wellington free. And why are you here today? So Wellington free is definitely all about being here for our communities. So that's our slogan on our, um, on our vehicle and on our jerseys today. We're here for all our communities, and we really value and cherish, um, the support that we get from our communities, the patients that we see in the community, Um, and not only the communities we really value, um, the diversity of the staff that that are involved. So, yeah. Can you just describe, um, how you've [01:12:00] dicked out your vehicles today? Indeed. So we have a special, um, vehicle called the People's Ambulance, which was fundraising by the people for the people, Um, during our 90th anniversary in 2017. So what we've done for a special edition of the People's ambulance is we've rainbow it. So not only is it the people's ambulance, it also some rainbow people on the top as a reflective strip. And it's got some, um, rainbow flags on the side where it has the people's ambulance branding. Um, we've got banners. We've got, uh, rainbow balloons that are yet to come out because it's a bit windy in Wellington at the moment. [01:12:30] So we're just gonna wait until the last minute for those just to it is light for Wellington for sure, For sure, for sure. So how did Wellington free get involved in in the pride festivities? Um, so we were aware that obviously it happened down here, but actually, we hadn't been involved. This is our first year for being involved. Um, it just it was something that we knew that was going on and staff were interested. It was just that getting everyone together and making it happen. But we spoke with our colleagues at ST John Ambulance, our friends at Fire and Emergency New Zealand and our friends at NZ Police and [01:13:00] everyone was getting involved. And we all chatted and worked together and had a lot, you know, various coffee mornings to sort of say, what should we all do? And here we all are. And so how many people are going to be marching with you today? Uh, so we've got about 40. We've got about 40 staff, which is really cool. We got 40 staff and volunteers. And we also work with, um, real estate agents. Tommy's. They support us every year. So we've got about 10 of their staff marching with us as well. So it'll be cool. So, what are you hoping to get out of us? Um, just a lot of fun and a lot of awareness. Um, we like to be visible in our community to let people know who we are and what [01:13:30] we do. Um, and we just want them to know that we're here for them, um, and and and we're, you know, supportive and inclusive of everything that we do. And, um, we just want to show people that we're here, and we love our community. And we love Wellington and, um, have a bit of fun. Why do you think, um, pride events like this are important. They're really important. Exactly for that to raise awareness and show people the diversity of the communities that we have. Um, just because, you know, we might not all be the same. I mean, he wants to all be the same. That would be boring. So, um, I think it's really important [01:14:00] to make that, you know, raise that profile and hype that awareness and everyone like I'm here looking at a, um you know, um, a concrete cement mixer that's been rainbow out. And I'm looking at vehicles that are rainbow out. And I just think it's really lovely and light and fun and heartful And who would not want to be involved in pride? Hi. Uh, my name is Alan Granville, and I'm here today representing Bear in New Zealand and be in New Zealand. Tell me about that. Uh, so basically, it's a fairly loose, uh, kind of social group of guys who kind of identify or admirers [01:14:30] of gentlemen who are bears or perceived to be bears. Um, I've been helping run the group now for several years now, and I used to run urge bar up in K Road. Um, so, yes, we're help our very first time. We're actually at this parade. So could you give me a bit of a definition of what a beer is? The age old question? What is a bear? Um, it's pretty much, uh, guys who tend to be larger set pretty much got facial hair. Uh, that tends to be the, uh, the the stereotype image of what the bear is and people [01:15:00] who like that, Uh, But these days, as as as time has gone on, that kind of stereotype seems to kind of be, uh, changing an awful lot. Like my younger people, people who actually don't have facial hair, people who go to the gym all the time. So it's a very much of a changing involving kind of group. Basically, it's basically guys who like guys. And why is it important for you all to be marching today? Um, again, it's showing visibility and showing, um, who we're representing and that, um, that there are different groups of people out there that often you may not see [01:15:30] through various kind of media. Um, you look at very much many magazines and kind of posters for dance events. And, you know, every guy look like these a kind of guys, which we all know that 99% of people aren't that, and actually, you can actually just be who you want to be. And you don't have to be an absolute gym bunny. You can go to the gym if you want to, Of course. Um, but it just guys who who focus on themselves for you personally. What's it like marching? Um, well, I've I've done the Auckland one a couple of times [01:16:00] now and it's I moved down to Wellington last year, and so it's just great to actually get a representation down here in Wellington. Um, I went to last year's parade and it was great fun, but we weren't part of it. Um, so it's great. Just be participating in it this time. So this is the first time that be as New Zealand has participated in Wellington. That's correct. Yes, the first one we've done Auckland for maybe four or five years now, I think. But it's the first one we're here. Can you compare, um, the Auckland parade to to the one in Wellington? Um, the Auckland, Well, the Auckland one is is obviously quite large. [01:16:30] I mean, in sa Ponson Bay. And it's, uh, it's not quite as easy to get to get to the crowd. This this one is much more interactive with the crowd. Um, and it's kind of a much more kind of feels like more of a homegrown one. This one, not in any way just saying to Auckland Because Auckland is great. They they they put on a great performance. Um, so this one just seems to be more kind of closer to the people. What do you think? Some of the biggest issues facing, uh, LGBTI member communities are in New Zealand at the moment. Um, obviously, uh, the, uh the the suicide [01:17:00] and the youth is is huge at the moment. And the, um obviously, the implications of the Israel Folau statement and everything that's come out very recently has brought that to the fore. It's so good to see so many people coming out against that and supporting the GL BT community. Um, I think it's it's important. The visibility. Um, it would be great if there was more sportsmen, for example. I know this country. So it's all about the sport, and it's about the rugby. It'd be great if we had some more kind of out stars. [01:17:30] Um, so I think that that representation and and and and seeing people out there who are kind of like us, um is is hugely important. Is that so? We are a student group from tech, and, um, it was born from a student group Rainbow Rendezvous. And I've got some students with me today marching. So it's just helping promote the rainbow. People are safe within and welltech and it's an establishment [01:18:00] group towards endeavouring to bring equality into the educational tertiary process within the institutes as well. So why is it important to be marching today? Um, we've got a wide spectrum of studentss at tech and and we just feel like we want to just represent everybody and, you know, march for equality. And we're involving everybody from every spectrum of life. Everyone, everyone is welcome. Everyone's involved. That's our mantra. Motto. We're open to students past, present and future staff past, present [01:18:30] and future who need ongoing education and professional development and rainbow needs. So OK, so what is it like marching in a Well, this is my first time. Yeah, this is my first time. So what are you looking forward to? Well, I don't I actually looking at all of this. I'm like, Damn, what am I missing out on? So yeah, I don't know. I'm looking forward to, you know, getting out there and seeing the reaction getting a bit of free. Well, almost free publicity For how little The fees were [01:19:00] for us, so yeah, Yeah. Same. This is my first one as well. Um, and this is well taken Rea's first time in marching in the pride parade So we're hoping to make it an annual thing. Now, I've been told we're the only tertiary institute marching today. There's a lot of corporate defence force RS A and everyone out here, but no other tertiary institute is marching today. So I'm Gavin from Rainbow Wellington. We've got a group here today that is marching in the parade parade. Um, so we try [01:19:30] and participate every year, and, um, it's fantastic. Fantastic. Uh, parade this year, it's looking really, really good. Yeah. So we're in Tennyson Street before the parade starts. Hundreds of people Can you just describe, uh, what you can see? Well, there's just an amazing array of different coloured rainbows, And, uh, all the banks have come together to celebrate, uh, together, uh, which is, which is fantastic to see. Um, there's a lot of bands, a lot of noise, and I gather the police are also marching in uniform, which is quite quite [01:20:00] good. And something that we're We're, um, certainly happy with That's, uh, quite different from the, uh, Auckland experience. Yeah, uh, yeah. I mean, they had their, you know, they had their reasons for for doing what they did. But I, um we were keen that that didn't sort of happen in Wellington. So you've been to to numerous pride events over the years. Um, can you compare this to something that happened, Say, 10, 15 years ago or even further? Um, yeah. No, this is it just doesn't compare. Uh, we we we're [01:20:30] never able to get this number of, um of people on a, you know, on a celebration march or parade. Uh, it just doesn't compare. It's amazing. And I think it's much bigger than last year, too. Um, yeah. I don't know for what reason, but it's, uh, looks really well supported. Why do you think pride parades are important? Um, I think it gives people the opportunity to, you know, to celebrate, you know, being themselves being different. And, um and yeah, it's good. [01:21:00] And so you're marching with rainbow Wellington. Can you just tell me a wee bit about rainbow Wellington? OK, Rainbow Wellington is, um uh if you like a an overarching organisation for of organisations in Wellington, we we're a charitable trust. So we and we also have, you know, formal bank accounts and formal structure of the board. Um and we So we do social activities. We do some political activities. We do submissions to parliament and so on. Um and we also support community groups with grants. [01:21:30] So I was just talking to the organisers of this, um today and said, you know, we should have a talk about how we can get more community groups to participate next year. I'm Alan. Lenny. Um, I'm here with Fletcher Building. Um, we're here today with representatives from across the whole company, um, to diversion, inclusion and our LGBTI community at Fletcher Building. Now, you've not only got people marching, but also you've got a couple of vehicles. Can you describe them for me? [01:22:00] Yeah. So, first up, we have, um, Shane, who's, uh, Winston Winston aggregates quarry manager here in Wellington. And so he leads the parade, and he's got, um, rainbow flashing lights on the top, and that's then followed by our Golden Bay Cement truck and tanker. Um, And then after that, we have our first concrete truck. Um with a ball that's wrapped in rainbow Colour. And following that, we have [01:22:30] our Winstone aggregates, um, truck and trailer. Um, and all the vehicles have rainbow decker on them. Um, and they're a permanent member of the fleet, so they drive around Wellington, and we have one across the country. Um, and it's part of our commitment to diversion inclusion and the LGBTI community and really showing and signifying that Fletcher building is a place, um, where everyone's accepted. So why is it important for Fletchers [01:23:00] to be here today? Um, I think it just clears and sends out a clear signal that, you know, we're leaders in the industry. Um, that diversity and inclusion is something that's really important to us and that, you know, we support the LGBTI community. Is this the first time you've matched in a parade? No. Um I previously marched in the parade in Auckland. Um, twice. Um, so, yeah, this is my third time marching in the parade. Well, what's what's the feeling like [01:23:30] it's It's awesome. It really is. Um, we've got, like, a real positive vibe here today. We've got a lot of people. There's people flowing from Auckland. There's people from all around Wellington across the country come together to and pride today. So it really is awesome. Hi. I'm, um Annie. I'm I identify as a non binary lesbian. Queer pronouns. She her they them And I am in Tennyson Street [01:24:00] on the way to begin an awesome pride here in Wellington. And who are you with today with Wellington, but samba here. And, um, they've played almost every pride parade, haven't they? In the last couple of years? Yeah, they have. Yeah, we've been very supportive, um, for the well way back. But the last couple of years, we've been involved, and yeah, yeah, Tennyson Street is absolutely packed with people. Can you just what you can [01:24:30] see? Oh, my gosh. Just beautiful, vibrant colours, Lots of smiley happy faces. The vibe is just quite infectious. Actually, I'm quite, um I'm a wee bit overwhelmed, to be honest with you. There's a lot of, um, there's a lot of I'm just the vibe is really quite different. I would say this year, um, I'm just feeling the love. That's it. Why? Why do you think pride parades are important? Uh, visibility in one word. [01:25:00] Uh, we need to have more visibility, take up more space. We We are, um, in the communities, but we don't all have a chance to come together and support those that can actually be visible. So it's so hugely important for those that have, um, pave the way to be able to make it easier for everybody else to just, uh, um come out if they choose to come out. Of course. But, uh, they shouldn't have to choose to come out. They should just be able to be themselves. So this is an opportunity to go. We're here. We're here. And, [01:25:30] um, I come and celebrate. Can you describe what the experience of of marching in a parade is like? Um, it's Oh, gosh. Well, being, uh, it's, um how do I say it? Probably the best way to capture it would be, um I play a big drum. So it's about the heart beat. So I am part of a big batter here. We're all one. So it's an opportunity. Those for about 50 of us to all come together and somehow in sync without talking. Um, play the same, uh beats [01:26:00] the same, um, rhythms, and it feels like it's community. So it's Yeah. So it's just a beautiful experience to be able to do that. Yeah. Hi. I'm Julia, and I'm at the very beginning of the gay parade today. And all of all of, um, flags are flying. The rainbow flags are flying and the dikes on bikes are just about to start, and they look fantastic. Can you describe some of the bikes? Oh, well, we've got, um, Harley's, I think, [01:26:30] um, What's this? The sea something. Is that a Honda? Um, we've got a wonderful one over here. You got a camera? Um, it's, uh, almost like a a mini car. Really? With no roof. Um, um, we've got a lovely woman here who's the MC, and I think she's going to have a hell of a time with her feet. Her shoes don't fit her properly, and they're already sore, but they are high heels, and she looks [01:27:00] fabulous. So is this the first parade you've attended, or have you? I've been to some in San Francisco, and, um, I've got friends, um, who helped organise the Air New Zealand section. So, um no, no, it's not new to me. Why do you think pride. Parades are important. Well, actually, I mean here in Wellington are totally accepted, but I don't think in the rural areas in New Zealand they're still accepted. But, um I I don't really [01:27:30] know because, um, to me, we're all one. What's the feeling you get from pride parades? The ones you've seen in the past? I've always totally enjoyed them. I love the flamboyance. Uh, the comma. I've just been to the most wonderful gay. Um, birthday in Westport. Um, 60th. And my friend flew in from the US along with a lot of others, and we had a wonderful time. There are about 40 of us down there in Westport, so it was a wonderful, flamboyant time, I can [01:28:00] tell you. Hey, look, they're just about to They're just about to start. So I'm just gonna ask you to commentate as they come through. You just Oh, God. Well, here we go. The flags are flying. OK, and here it is. Dogs on bikes. Can you hear them? That lovely throaty roar. Do I have to keep going? Oh, God, why can't you do it? Look, we've got floral decorations on some of the bikes, uh, ribbons [01:28:30] Uh oh. Look, there's a woman, um, here in a fantastic leopard skin outfit, she looks a bit like a cat, Um, and on the back as well. And she's got a dog. So she looks like a cat, and she's got a dog on the back. And so here's the last of them, and I can't even describe that. But how you pronounce that one? There's some unusual names on these bikes and what's coming up after dikes on bikes. Then we've got the fleet building. [01:29:00] Oh, wow. Oh, wow. In the gay parade and then in parade Pride, Pride, let me get it right. Quite short shorts. Oh, come on, hang on. Oh, not really. Short short. No, no, I wouldn't say that. I've seen some water, but it's lovely to see there's about. There's about 10, 12 of them of Fletchers. So that's pretty good. And I've all got pink hard hats on. Very nice. Oh, and here we've got this [01:29:30] wonderful truck come out. Well, Winston's here, but I love this truck. Here can. This is a big American Kenworth truck. Fantastic. Oh, God, I like it. Ah, And here we've got first concrete. And look the, um, tumbler or mixer. The huge mixer on the back. The tumbler is [01:30:00] all in the in the pride parade colours and the colours of the rainbow. Fantastic. I'm Chris Bishop. I'm the MP for heart south. I'm a national party MP marching with the national party at the Wellington International Pride Parade just down in Courtney Place at the moment, Uh, great feeling out here at the moment. Um, we're just marching to celebrate diversity and tolerance even more important these days. Uh, in New Zealand in, uh, 2019. So, uh, you were here last year? How does this compare to last year's one? We were here last year. [01:30:30] Last year was sort of, uh it's a very loud concrete truck. We were here last year as the sun was going down, uh, around about five or 5. 30 last year. It's mid afternoon. So a slightly different crowd, a bit more subdued, a bit more of a lesser, um, you know, lesser crowd, I suspect, but, um look, it's just great to see so many people out and about, and, uh, just be marching with the national party. So why do you think pro parades are important. Oh, look, I think it's really important just to send a message. It's really important that cities come together, you know, every [01:31:00] now and then to send a message that tolerance and diversity is really important, that everyone's valued, uh, no matter their sexuality or their gender orientation. Uh, and actually, no matter what religion or faith they are, everyone's important, um and, you know, entitled to equal equal respect and human dignity. So rich hooli. I'm with New Zealand Rugby. Um, obviously here supporting the rainbow community. So it's pretty exciting. Actually, it's, you know, there's lots going on, lots of colour, lots of different [01:31:30] faces. And yeah, it's it's just really cool to be here. Is this the first time you marched in appropriate, uh, in Wellington? Yes. Uh, so we were in the Auckland parade last year. Um, which is really great and back. First time in Wellington. So can you describe the atmosphere? How does it feel? Uh, lots of noise. It's very exciting. I think, um, you know, people are just, uh, just really excited to be, you know, out and about. And and, as I say, just really supporting the community, which is awesome. Why is it important for New Zealand rugby to be here today? Uh, well, we've always said, you know, like it's about, um, showing [01:32:00] everybody that that rugby is for everybody. It's a it's a game for all, and And we, you know, we really mean. And so I think we want to be here, Um, really representing the game and and making sure that people see that it's visible. We out here in the community, so Yeah, cool. How many participants do you have today? Uh, we've got about 20 here, but, um, lots more. Obviously around about, uh, very supportive as well, but just couldn't make it today because clearly, on a Saturday afternoon, there's lots of rugby going on and And why? Pride parades important. Um, it's just a visible A really visible, [01:32:30] you know, Um I guess way of supporting. You know what is a really important, um, you know, thing for for the the community and our game. So, yeah, we we really wanted to be out here and and in as much colour and and, um, and numbers as possible. I'm Justin Leon there of Wellington. We're down at the Wellington International Pride parade and you got thousands of people lying in the streets. Uh, a wonderful sense of love and huge support for our pride community. And you're looking for your flute? Yeah, I'm just trying to find the welling City Council team. We've just, uh we'll just, uh, cut [01:33:00] the symbolic ribbons. So now I'm gonna find the council team and because I know that we've got a hugely board of team there, and, uh, and our queer council group as well going to join them in March in the parade. What about Wellington's weather? Who would have thought this would have been May? Yeah, it's beautiful. It's, uh yeah, certainly. Someone's, uh, looking down upon us. Favourably. Um, look, uh, yeah, wonderful weather, very mild. And, um, who knows a little bit of drizzle later on a big gay rainbow in the too. Can you describe the size of the crowd? It's a huge crowd. We've got thousands [01:33:30] of people lining at the length of Courtney Place. We've got, I think, more than 40 groups marching today, ranging all the way from Fletcher Building to the defence Force. The Air Force, Uh, a whole lot of public institutions and private organisations as well. Huge, huge support. It's amazing. Now, A couple of years ago you said you were gonna bling up your mural robes. It hasn't quite happened, has it? Now? Amanda Hall is gonna dress me up today, but I think she's been busy dressing herself up. So, um, although I did have the Christchurch deputy mayor, he's here today and he's [01:34:00] wearing hot pants and that's about it. He's, um, oil all oiled up. So the challenge is next year I'll look, who knows. But at the moment we're outside the opera house. I'm with the Fire Brigades Beautiful entry as I'm walking from the chorus corner of drag to get after my shows down to the main stage to join my sisters, who have been hosting today. So how was the Drake stage? It was amazing. It was a really great way just to showcase some really fabulous queens from Wellington [01:34:30] and not have to worry about, you know, the weather. Anything else happening this to his church? You're looking amazing. Can you describe what you're wearing? Thank you. It's a self creation teaming with our theme of fire this year as a board member of the Wellington International International Pride Parade. I thought I'd better team with a theme or get a hiding from Amanda. Can you describe the, um, the crowd today? The crowd has been phenomenal for an event that we have put back on after a bit [01:35:00] of a hiatus due to the tragic events in Christchurch, we are so stoked that everyone's come out to support Wellington International Pride Parade 2019. Can you just describe, um, the the the fire float that's about campaign? They haven't put my fire out, though. They're obviously off duty, but I love a good man in uniform or a woman. Oh, look at, um, the crowds really great today. Um, it's it's it. It is a really cool that Wellington [01:35:30] vibe about it. I mean, I keep running into people on the sidelines, and I keep seeing friends in the parade, so I think it's got that really cool. You know, Wellington Village. Feel about it. Um, someone was saying this is not Mardi Gras. And I was like, Yeah, thank God. Because, you know, this is this is typically Wellington, right? So how would you How would you describe Mardi Gras? Um glitzy, Big, massive. I mean, really commercial. What I like about this is that, um it's it's got a real community [01:36:00] feel. It really reflects who and what what? We are in Wellington. What is the, um what is the best float you've seen so far? Um, I was quite impressed with the firefighters, and, um, I was just talking to the Dutch ambassador before, and she said that she's got this really cool float coming on with, um, big, you know, sort of dolls kissing each other, So yeah, I'm quite looking forward to that. Yeah. Can you just describe to me what's coming towards us now? OK, so, uh, we [01:36:30] a shopping trolley looks like with a pink flamingo in it. It's the countdown float. So Yeah. There you go. Um, a lot of, um, local businesses, um, are are represented here today, which is which is really cool, too. Yeah. Oh, OK. Here. We have some cool dancers making a lot of noise, [01:37:00] and, um and and really cutting some nice moves coming up the street. It's amazing. Here comes the Wellington City Council. Uh, the Where's the mayor should be here somewhere. [01:37:30] He, uh the the mayor is in one of those four wheeled bicycles that annoys me on an Oriental parade. But he looks amazing. He looks, Yeah, fantastic. He's it's jammed on the back. There's quite a few of them on that little, um, very, very, um, colourfully decorated four wheeled bicycle. And there's a lot of bubbles being blown. I I spy some other counsellors. Nicola Young. It's extremely eco-friendly. [01:38:00] Yeah, the mayor is blowing bubbles and peddling his four wheeled bicycle and waving at me right now. Hi, Mayor. Excellent. That's fantastic. [01:38:30] So, Jared, here we are marching in the Pride Parade. How's it feeling? Oh, it's great. This is the first time I've marched as a non uniform member, a civilian employee with the defence force, and it it. It makes me feel just as proud to be here with the Overwatch group rather than marching in uniform. But every year we do it, it gets bigger and better, uh, great [01:39:00] support from our organisation and great from the public. Jared, if we just turn around behind us, What? What can we see? It's a light armoured vehicle. Go. Yeah, so it's the first time we parade a light armoured vehicle in the parade, but, uh, every float requires a vehicle, so we thought, Well, we'll we'll bring one that really means something to us. So that's, uh, part of our core equipment to carry out the missions the government sent to hold overseas. I've got to say, that doesn't look light at all. It looks huge. Oh, yeah, There are. There are heavier [01:39:30] armoured vehicles. We only have, uh, light armoured vehicles in New Zealand. Yeah, so So what does it mean to you to be kind of marching and praying? Well, I think it's It's a recognition originally about the pride movement, which, of course, initially focused on, uh, just on, um, homosexuality and gays. But of course, now it's evolved into a celebration of the the entire community and all the aspects that that embraces and also give us those who support us on a day to day basis the opportunity to, [01:40:00] you know, public acknowledge that, uh, support they give us as well. And what does it mean to you personally? Oh, I just think they're they're my colleagues. They're my friends. Um, and I'm very proud of all of them. Um and I very appreciate of the support I've received over the 30 odd years that I've served in the defence force and this chairing is actually for the defence force, isn't it? Yeah, it's very it's It's a great acknowledgement by the the people of New Zealand to the work we do and the fact that we're an organisation that supports all our people. [01:40:30] I'm I'm the Dutch ambassador here in Wellington for New Zealand and we're participating in Wellington's prize. Yeah, we wanted to participate this year actually because I think it's an important thing in the foreign policy of the Netherlands. We promote human rights of LGBTI worldwide member of the Equal Rights Coalition, and we are active wherever we can can be. Can you describe your float, please? Now my float is actually my staff. That's of course, the core [01:41:00] of the float and their families, but also the inflatable kissing dolls del blue really, really dark and they signified importance that the Netherlands government attaches to the human rights of LGBT. Is this the first pride parade you walked in? Really? I walked also in the one in Amsterdam, which is a bit of a different atmosphere and its own canals because I was not really walking. But this is like the first one in New Zealand. As I recently arrived. Can you describe the feeling, please? It's [01:41:30] fabulous. I think that the atmosphere is great. All kinds of people, really a diverse range of people are older people. Young people LGBTI whatever and it's really a fantastic atmosphere. Why do you think pride parades are important? I think it's important to realise that something that not only for like New Zealand, but I think also worldwide that you can be the person that you actually want to be without fearing of discrimination, violence or whatever. I think it's important to celebrate [01:42:00] it every year. So Grant Robertson, um MP for Wellington, Central Minister of Finance. We're standing outside the grand on Courtney Place behind two, as they were described to me blue blobby, um, who are kissing each other, Which is a good thing. Um, yeah, and part of the rainbow Labour, Um, team that's here at the Pride parade and what a team. Because to our left, we have Thomas Coffy and to our right, we have Paul Eagle a front row to die for. I would say so grant. Why Pride parades important. They [01:42:30] remain important. What I said when I was on the stage actually is to celebrate, um, the past to be able to acknowledge the people who got us to where we are today, Um, which is a huge journey, but also to think about the future. And the fact that, you know, being a young, queer person still isn't easy for a lot of people. There's still a lot of discrimination. There's still an opportunity for us to alter, embrace diversity in our country. And so for me, these parades are just so important for giving people that sense of hope. You know, I was watching a whole group of young queer people today, [01:43:00] and I could tell that this was one of the first times that they had actually been out and about. And I just think that's fantastic. Yeah, well, talking about giving people hope. So you're the Minister of Finance Budget coming up. Is there anything in there specifically for LGBTI Rainbow people will have to wait, but, um, we're certainly very well aware, particularly with the big focus we've got on mental health this year, that mental health issues are a massive challenge for our communities. And so, yeah, um, I don't get to reveal the budget early, but what I can say is that we're very aware of of [01:43:30] the particular needs of our communities and being well and being mentally well. And how is that portfolio going for you personally? The finance one. It's great. It's a massive privilege. You know, I get to be part of the really big decisions we make as a government, and and part of, I hope in making New Zealand a better place. And, um, yeah, you know, it's pretty busy, quite stressful, but massive privilege. Can you describe the scene in front of us? So, in front of us, we've got this a massive sea of flags of rainbow and [01:44:00] green party banners and blue banners. And along the side, it's we've got, you know, ordinary Wellingtons who've got smiles on their faces, which is just, you know, a fantastic thing. It's a Saturday afternoon in May, Um, and there's all these people gathered around all and you go down the chute here as we reach Taranaki Street. Um and it kind of makes the parade come in really tight and really close and you just feel all the energy and it it's just fantastic. Oh, look, I. I can't believe how dynamic it is. It's vibrant. There's so much [01:44:30] energy. It's amazing. It's fantastic. And you look amazing. Thank you. Yes. So I decided I needed to go all out this year. So I've got my rainbow sequenced outfit on and my trans earrings, which I actually have deliberately worn. I think it's really important to emphasise trans non-binary, uh, issues for me. They are still, um, areas that we have to work harder on. Can you describe the feeling of what it's like to be in a breed? [01:45:00] I think what I've seen today is so much pride from right across society, corporate New Zealand. But I've loved our defence force and just Yeah, we've had the Army, the police, the Navy, uh, those who are defending our shores who are here in numbers. And there's just so much energy. It's loud. People are dancing, there's music. The crowds are thick. Everybody is here to show that this is a really special and important event for Wellington. [01:45:30] So, yeah, I just want to say congratulations to Mayor Justin Lester and his council. Uh, they've actually, I think created an international pride event that hopefully will become part of the international calendar. And we'll have visitors flock to Wellington to be part of it. Bye. Tell me, how's it going, Amanda? Huge. Much bigger than I thought it was gonna be. And it's relentless. Hi, everyone. Ya Labour Party. [01:46:00] I love them. This is just breathtaking. How many people are marching? Do you think there is approximately 2800? 2800 Amazing hello in New Zealand as one of our major sponsors. Hi. In New Zealand, they have flown all the way from all over the world. Wow! [01:46:30] And they're hot. Oh, look, look, look. You look out here and the imagination, the number of people involved. Absolutely astounding. I'm through to bits. Absolutely true. Congratulations to the organisers. The energy is is there's an of joy and the is magic. Now I see this. You've actually got your police cat. Oh, yes, Yeah. I have [01:47:00] to support the police because I didn't like what Auckland did. And here we are. I think they're just about to come up now. I've also got my New York vest on. And I don't know if I will dare take my shirt off and buy jocks. I see the police here. Look at that. We got the police. Isn't that wonderful? [01:47:30] I mean, they get enough flack, and we know what it's like to get Flack. And here we are. We've got the police. So where are you? Where are you? Great. You got to get a photo with the commissioner, Commissioner. [01:48:00] Yes. So, have you guys been to a bride parade before? This is my first time. Uh, this is my first time, too. And can you describe it? How was it? It was really fun. Like, at first I thought it was really, like, not many people around because I arrived a little bit early, [01:48:30] so a little bit disappointed, But then it turned out really cool. A lot of people I feel like home. Uh, yeah, it's really great. It's, like, really great being represented and being visible. And just like being able to be open like this, What was your, um, favourite kind of float? Uh oh. It's hard to choose. Uh, probably The tank there is like a an armoured vehicle rolling fast. I didn't expect that. I like the big balloon right [01:49:00] there. Oh, yeah, Yeah. I like that one right there. Really cool. Why are pride Parade is important? Why do you like them? Oh, because it bring people together and like Like we have somewhere that we can relate and our orientation and diversity. That's really cool. I think it's a great way for the queer community to come together and to really be accepted in society. [01:49:30] We have to be visible. We have to be known that we are here and we are not leaving. What was the feeling when you saw the parade go past feel really right? There's a lot of hot. It's a great feeling, just like it's a good feeling. Just like energetic. Just like being able to be here is like a really good feeling. Hello? Hello, Dave. Look, we're not [01:50:00] going to be long. We just wanted to say a few, Thank you. First of all to all of you guys to be part of this now, I've got a few people standing here who have made this all happen. By the way, my name's Richard. I'm the chair of the Wellington International Pride parade board. This has been a journey. It's been a journey with the cancellation or the postponement, but we made it happen. And pride is back. We have taken the streets [01:50:30] back just quickly. I'm gonna start at the far end here. Todd Hamilton. Cook supplied the car. Heather Ha. Penelope England Mia slapper. She does have another name. Simon. Our own City councillor, Nicola Young. Without her, the council wouldn't have helped us so much. So, Nicola, she's our door opener. And then Fraser Shaw. [01:51:00] He's just been amazing. And of course, no introduction is needed for this one. Mr. Amanda LA. OK, we're gonna let the music go. We're gonna replay the parade, so please stay along. See what you missed, because the whole thing is gonna go up here. Thank you.

IRN: 2084
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/tranzform_wai_ho.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004563
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089857
TITLE: Wai Ho - Tranzform
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Wai Ho
INTERVIEWER: Will Hansen
TAGS: 2000s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bella Simpson; Brendan Goudswaard; Evolve Wellington Youth Service; Gay Line Wellington; Icebreakers; InsideOUT Kōaro; KAHA Youth Hui (2007); KAHA Youth Hui (2009); Kazam Youth Hui (2011); School's Out (Wellington); Shift hui; Tabby Besley; Tranzform (Wellington); Vibe (Lower and Upper Hutt); Wai Ho; Wellington; Wellington Gay Switchboard; Wellington Gay Welfare Group; Wellington High School; Will Hansen; Youth; coming out; counselling; family; gender-affirming surgery; genderqueer; google. com; guidance; homophobia; peer support; posters; safety; school; shyness; social change; social media; support; surgery; trans; trans visibility; transgender; transphobia; two-spirit; visibility; youth; youth group; youth work
DATE: 19 May 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Wai Ho, co-founder of Tranzform, talks about the early days of the youth support group which was established in Wellington in 2008.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So my first question for you is when did you first get involved with transform? Um I was really trying to remember what year it was, and I have absolutely failed. I even googled it and come up with anything. But, um, it was when I was working, as I think it was something like the community development worker or officer Wellington Gay Welfare Group, um, had some money to hire [00:00:30] to be able to employ somebody. And so they employed me. I was already running, um, schools out at the time, So I think schools that has been going for quite a long time. And then it maybe stopped for a little bit and start again and that kind of thing. So I was doing that. And then I was employed with Wellington Gay Welfare Group, and then I actually don't know how how it all happened. But Brooklyn Michelle and she's this two spirit Trans woman, Native [00:01:00] American Trans woman from the States. And she was in Wellington, and I don't know how I met her. Maybe just kind of Wellington queer stuff, but yeah, we we got chatting and decided to start a trans group because schools out was I had a little byline. It was probably something like queer questioning that, but yeah, we thought we, um it would be good to have a specifically trans one, because I guess there's some you [00:01:30] know, specific things about being Trans, which aren't always around other queer stuff or whatever. So, yeah, I think we just started it. And I, I really have no idea what year that was. It was desperately. I mean, it's probably got to be a good 10 years ago or something now, but yeah, I don't know if you chat to Brooklyn, she might have a better idea. Actually, Bella Bella might know, or we could just minus Bella's age, [00:02:00] then from now, because when Bella started, she was she was, like, 10 or 11. So it was probably like, whatever Bella is now, I think she said 2009. Yeah, that sounds about right. That's, like, a decade ago. Yeah, I was just wondering if you'd like to explain just a little bit what the Wellington Gay welfare group was. Oh, no, I hope I can. They are a group of I think they've been around [00:02:30] for a really, really long time. I think they started the switchboards for when you when there was no Internet. And you thought you were gay. And so you looked it up in the paper and you rang a phone number. So when I started there, the phone number was still going, so we'd still get calls then. And so, yeah, they had a roster of I think it was all men at that point. Um, and so you're involved with them, And with schools out were you were saying? I think schools out started in Wellington high school again. [00:03:00] No idea what year, but it was for, um, yeah, I guess. Queer young people, and maybe eventually And I think they maybe had lots of people like young people coming from schools that weren't Wellington High. And so maybe it got moved off, you know, and and amongst these years and different incarnations got moved off premise like off off school grounds so that, you know, other people could feel more comfortable coming or something like that. Um, and I think when I [00:03:30] got involved with the facilitating it, um, had it just kind of started up again, or yeah, at that point in time, Whatever year that was around, then I was facilitating that group along with, um Brendan. Go. Yeah. Cool. Um, so why did you form transform? Well, I guess schools out was mostly young, queer people who didn't feel like they were particularly [00:04:00] questioning the gender. It was more about sexuality and sexual orientation. Um, and it felt like, Yeah, I guess it felt like the trans stuff felt a bit different than your standard Kind of, you know, um, L GB kind of, you know, after school support group or after school Social group. Even so, I think Transform got set up as, um, more of a support group. Whereas [00:04:30] schools out at that time, I don't know what it's like now was totally a support group, but it was also very, very social. So I mean, I think we probably did do some support, but the large yeah, felt like schools out was very largely about, you know, young people meeting up with each other. And we have just have quite a bit of fun and, you know, do social things and kind of hang out. And that was less supporting and less talking about the issues seriously as [00:05:00] opposed to just, you know, hanging out. So I think transform. We realised we thought maybe there would be a need for for having a specific kind of trans space. Um, trans group for young people as well as, um, yeah. To be more kind of support focused. I mean, potentially at the time we were getting more inquiries. Or maybe there was some kind of external driver where someone was like, Hey, you I should set up a transport group, but yeah, [00:05:30] just kind of can't really remember. Yeah. Do you want to explain a little bit more? Why there was that, like, um, why there was the different need for Trans group, Like a square group. Like what? The difference was between the needs of those two. Um, yeah, I. I don't know about everybody else, but I feel like for me. So for me at the time, I wasn't. Wasn't out as Trans or I didn't think I was trans at [00:06:00] that stage. I think I was maybe identifying as gender queer. Um, and that didn't feel yeah. Being trans didn't feel so pressing for me at that stage. I mean, it did not long after, but, um yeah, I guess the difference for me was around. Hm. Maybe visibility stuff. So it seemed like people did know what gay was, and people did know what lesbian was and bisexual and that, um [00:06:30] those things were not kind of accepted, Accepted were kind of known about and maybe a little bit more readily accepted. And the Trans felt, um I guess new or newer in regards to yeah, discussions and groups and visibility and, um, teachers struggling with it in in schools. Or, um, [00:07:00] because also in my role, um, with Wellington Gay Welfare Group was Yeah, just, I guess, supporting parents and chatting to to schools and other kind of groups, you know? And it seemed like they had had a decent handle on, um, queer stuff or gay stuff and lesbian stuff, as in people knew what it was. And they were like, Oh, OK, kind of thing. Where? Yeah, it seemed like there was a lot more confusion, a lot more questions, [00:07:30] Um, and just needing people needing and wanting more information around being Trans, I think, were there many other trans groups, uh, similar to this one around before transform or I have no idea. I'm sure they were, but, um, I yeah, I don't think there was a group for young trans people at the time, which was probably why we set one up. Yeah. [00:08:00] Oh, wow. So what were the, um, aims of transform? What did you want to achieve with the group? I think for me, I think it was just simply having a support space. And I think that, um when you often when you create a good, solid space for people to be in and come to they come to it and often do the support work, you know, with each other and with themselves, as long as the space is kind of facilitated [00:08:30] and held Well, so in a way, yeah. It was just making a space for people to come. Yeah. So what kind of activities did you do? Oh, I'm trying to think, um, I think I don't even know how often we were meeting at that stage. Maybe it was once every couple of weeks, um, schools out me every week, and I think transform didn't meet as frequently as that. Maybe it was once, once a month. Maybe [00:09:00] it was once a fortnight. I'm not quite sure. Um, we do. Yeah, People felt it. It felt like people were a lot more shy. And so we had to do way more icebreakers of which I have a love hate relationship with icebreakers. But, yeah, schools. That seems to be really lots of, you know, it was really boisterous, and, um, people weren't shy. Well, I'm sure people were, but a lot of people weren't shy as schools out, whereas transform people seemed Yeah. [00:09:30] Why do you think that people were, um I guess for me thinking about being trans and coming out of Trans as Trans was a lot harder, and I had to do a lot more thinking about it, Maybe because there was less visibility. Whereas at that time, being a queer woman, I felt like there was a fair bit of visibility, so I couldn't I could I could see it in kind of, you know, subcultural pop culture and be like, [00:10:00] Yeah, that's me. No, I'm a butch woman. I'm a queer woman. Cool. You know, and the beef comes from other people being eggs. Um, as opposed to mean potentially questioning anything. Um, and I think with the trans stuff. I was for me. There's there was it just seemed like it wasn't as visible. And so I couldn't look at a television programme or a magazine [00:10:30] or some kind of pop cultural reference and be like, Oh, oh, right. I'm trying, OK? Yeah. So maybe it felt more, um, I don't know, complex or trying or whatever. Yeah. And I think, um, did we talk lots about? We didn't talk a whole heap about medical staff, but I, I suppose because there can be a a medical aspect to being Trans. Um, [00:11:00] and that is hard to access, I guess. Or it can be a stressful thing to access that That's another cause of, you know, concern or stress or whatever in a way that, you know, maybe coming out as gay or lesbian isn't you know? So, yeah, I'm not Yeah, I'm not sure. How many members did you have at the start? Oh, it really varied. So sometimes we'd have, you know, just half a dozen people. [00:11:30] Sometimes it'd be Yeah, you know, 15, 20 people. And so it kind of quite varied. What did we do? So we did ice breakers. We had chats about different things. Um, sometimes we'd have topics. Maybe that we talk about, um Do we get speakers in? Yeah, I think maybe we got speakers in. Maybe we did social things. I can't really remember it all very, very, very sorry. No, don't apologise. Um, I was wondering, [00:12:00] uh, how did you, like, um, reach out to, like, get more members? Hm? That's a good question. We had posters. I'm not sure where we put them, but if we had them, we must have put them somewhere. Oh, yes, we actually. Oh, maybe one year, someone gave us a whole lot of envelopes, like postage paid envelopes. Um, and we posted them out to most of the schools, probably in Wellington. I think that we had contacts with, uh, lots of guidance [00:12:30] counsellors. So either there was people who knew guidance counsellors in schools or we just had a big email list and we were in touch with. Yeah, a few kind of support staff and counsellors around Wellington schools. So I think we probably told them about the group. Um, are they called youth one stop shops or something like that? Kind of like evolve or vibe out in the hut, and so we let them know. I think we already had a lot of schools out contacts with a lot [00:13:00] of schools and, um, like youth services and that kind of thing. So we probably said, Oh, you know how we've got schools out? We've also got a group for trans people as well. You know, young trans queer people as well. So yeah, that's probably how it got out. And maybe, I mean, Brooklyn did more of the social media stuff, so maybe she did some tech savvy kind of thing. Um, so it's, um I feel like there's two ways to phrase [00:13:30] the question, but why did you feel that transform was important? Um, like for you personally, I guess in a way of setting up a support group. You you know, maybe I was setting up a support group for myself as well. So that was probably really helpful for me. I remember it also being around the time there was. I mean, I think inside out and Tabby still run a whole lot of what are they called? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's got a name, but I can't [00:14:00] remember the name shift. That's right. And I think before shift or round shift or concurrently with shift there was and there was and there was just a few other funny names of other things. But yeah, I think they were kind of regular or semi regular. Um, you know, que que trains or queer youth camps. Um and yeah, they often had different forum, of which things were talked about. So I remember [00:14:30] I remember going to a trans Or maybe I don't know if it was a trans one, but it was, you know, kind of like a Trans one and being like, crying and, you know, Yeah. And so, um, and I guess just coming to terms with being trans and being like, Oh, do I have to come out again? It sucks. Yeah. So I remember it being, you know, clumped around that whole time. So I think it was really useful for me to be kind of [00:15:00] officially, you know, helping facilitate a group. But also it being something that I needed and being able to, um, have contact with other young people and chat with them as well. Yeah, because how old were you then? when you first got involved? Um, I'm 37 now, so I guess I would have been, you know, if it was 10 years ago, I would have been 27 and I transitioned when I was 28. So, yeah, I would have totally been the precursor to transitioning. Um and [00:15:30] why do you feel that transform was important, Just like generally as something for the community, if you feel it was important, I mean, I guess it is. I hope that one day it doesn't have to exist because there's so much kind of support in people's everyday lives and school communities and families that you know. But for now, I think it's important because yeah, there's still a shit tonne of prejudice and bigotry and then just kind of plain [00:16:00] old misunderstanding. Um, that is around out there. And so if there's something that you know your floundering school counsellor or you're worried, you know, parent or your confused teacher can be like, um well, there's this group. How about you go to that? Then? I think that's a good resource and a good kind of conversation starter. And yeah, um, were there any particularly memorable events or [00:16:30] moments that you can recall from? No, not really. Oh, it was so long ago. How long were you involved with it? I didn't even know. I don't think I was involved for long. I was only with Wellington Gay Welfare Group for a couple of years, so might have only been a year with transform. Um, so reflecting back. What do you feel that, um, the group has achieved in the last 10 [00:17:00] years? I haven't really kept track of the group at all, but it feels like for queer and trans youth, the infrastructure is way, way, way more solid. So there seems to be, um, yeah, it doesn't seem to be an informal group that's sitting around and the people change and, you know, it seems to be I. I don't know quite how the structure is set up now, but it seems to be that there's way more funding. There's way more awareness [00:17:30] and the groups are connected not just kind of locally and regionally, but nationally as well. Um, and that could just be my perception for seeing things on social media, but it does feel like, Yeah, there's, um, lots more training involved um, and lots more supervision. Um, which I think is really, really good. Yeah. And, um, my last question for you is is, uh how do you think things have changed for trans youth in the past 10 [00:18:00] years? Oh, I'm not really sure. I hope that there's been more support in schools, more education in schools around it. Um, I know there's been stuff happening at kind of government, level around rights, stuff and education stuff and health stuff. Um, so I think it's all kind of ticking along nicely and how that plays out, actually, on the ground in a young trans person's life. [00:18:30] I, I you know, I don't know. I hope it's better, but I suspect it. Sometimes it's not, but yeah, but I guess, yeah, it seems it feels like there's a bunch more support and infrastructure and hopefully information and knowledge out there. What about, um, because you were talking a lot about visibility before? Do you feel that there's more visibility and is it a helpful visibility or do you feel that is, or maybe not helpful visibility? But the visibility that we have [00:19:00] is it helpful or it feels like there's more visibility publicly, Um, with celebrities and that kind of thing and whether it's visibility or scrutiny, I think is another thing, and and how visibility can lead to yeah, people being unsafe, Um, and to more open prejudice. I don't know. [00:19:30] I think that yeah, visibility is quite a fraught what's assumed to be quite a simple, positive thing, and I think it's can be a little bit more fraught and, um, almost paradoxical or contradictory than that. So, yeah, in what ways do you mean that it's fraught or well, I guess there's lots of ways in which trans people and queer people are extremely visible, and it means that their bodies and our bodies are made unsafe because of that visibility. [00:20:00] So I think if you want to talk about visibility without talking about social change without talking about, you know, bigotry and prejudice and violence and homophobia and transphobia, then you have to yeah, be like, well, does visibility. You know, What does visibility mean in a homophobic transphobic society? You know, whether that's online or whether that's, you know, on the street or in workplaces [00:20:30] or in schools. Yeah. How how does visibility? Yeah, What does that actually mean? You know, for people's bodies.

IRN: 2085
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/tranzform_bella_simpson.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004564
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089858
TITLE: Bella Simpson - Tranzform
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Bella Simpson
INTERVIEWER: Will Hansen
TAGS: 2000s; 2010s; Agender New Zealand; Aotearoa New Zealand; Assume Nothing (photographic exhibition); Auckland; Bella Simpson; Dancing with the Stars (tv); Dominion Post (newspaper); Elizabeth Kerekere; Evolve Wellington Youth Service; Felix Desmarais; Grant Robertson; Green Party; InsideOUT Kōaro; Jack Byrne; Jan Logie; Justin Lester; KAHA Youth Hui (2009); Kazam Youth Hui (2011); Louisa Wall; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Meghan Markle; NZAF Ā whina Centre; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF); New Zealand Labour Party; Palmerston North; Rainbow Crossing (Wellington); Rainbow Youth; Rebecca Swan; School's Out (Wellington); Shift hui; St Andrew's on the Terrace; The Wellbeing Budget 2019; Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); Transamerica (2005); Tranzform (Wellington); Tāmati Coffey; Tīwhanawhana; Ugly Betty (tv); Vigil for Zena Campbell (2018); Wellington; Wellington City Council; Will Hansen; Zena Campbell; board games; coming out; cross dressing; cross political party working group; family; feminism; funding; government; hui; lol (laugh out loud); media; military; politics; pride; pronouns; royal family; social; social media; social networking; socialise; support; trans; trans umbrella; trans visibility; transgender; transphobia; vigil; visibility; volunteer; youth; youth ball; youth group
DATE: 19 May 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Bella Simpson talks about being one of the first members of Tranzform, a youth support group established in Wellington in 2008.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi. My name is Bella. Um, I usually she her pronouns and, um, yeah, I'm a trans woman, and I've been out for for 11. 5 years. I just think about that one. Um, awesome. And so, uh, we had a day to talk about, um transform. Um, so when did you first get involved with Transform? Um, So when I first came out, um, I was seeing Marie as a counsellor, and money was supporting [00:00:30] myself and my family. Um, and we One of the things that Mary had talked about was transform was starting up and that it could be a really good opportunity for me. Um and so I started going along, and Dad was really supportive, and I was living in the hut at the time, and so he would come into the city and pick me up afterwards. And there was, um, an event in Palmerston North that he drove a whole lot of us to Palmerston north for and, um [00:01:00] yeah, so I started going, Yeah, when I was 11, and I just kept going until I was sort of old enough and didn't need the support. Um, and it sort of got more from support to social for me. So, yeah, How many people were involved when you first went? Um, there was a really small office in that AIDS foundation, and I think it was about five or six. and it fluctuated. So like when we were first in the AIDS Foundation, [00:01:30] it was packed, and it was a really small office. And then we moved to evolve and was on that little alleyway where the chocolate factory is now. Street? Yeah, yeah. Um, and they had their big room where there is a bar now, um, and we used to We met in there before it was a bar. And, um, that that was when there was maybe 234 of us, and some weeks there would be more. Some weeks, there would be less. But, um, yeah, I was [00:02:00] sort of always going because I didn't have anyone else trans in my life. That was the only, um, like, visibility. I really had, um but I was the youngest person by about 10 years. Um and then in general, LGBT like events, um, like a and things. I was the youngest person by, like, five years So wherever I went, I was just ridiculously the youngest. Um, which is interesting, because when you look at it now, [00:02:30] we have these really young kids coming out. Um, and there's so much more opportunities for them to come out and be themselves. So it's really interesting sort of sitting back and watching that huge culture shift, um, of how our community is sort of coming out and shifting and changing and growing. So, yeah. So you first went when you were 11. You? Yeah. And, um, it might have been 2008. [00:03:00] Um, so and when you say, it turns from kind of social support into being more social, do you think is that perhaps because as you got older, you were the same age as the others. Or I think for me it was more just that, um, I was much more sure of who I was and that I wasn't looking. I guess for that reassurance. And I wasn't looking. Um, I wasn't needing to be around. I wasn't [00:03:30] needing the support. Really. I was really just needing to be around people who were like me socially. Um, yeah, because at school there was no one else out. So I was the only one out. I was the only guy in the village. So, um, yeah, it was sort of a social opportunity. Um, So do you know why the group was formed? Um, I think that the group was formed because at the time, [00:04:00] there was schools out and schools out for a long time was really the gay group, right? That's where the gay guys went. And, um, that was their space. Um, and I think before my time, there was, um, transphobic stuff that was happening within that space. But, um, I don't think that that was sort of anyone's fault. I think when we look at it in the context of that time, it was not Trans issues were still not like a visible issue. Um, and they [00:04:30] weren't being highlighted. Um, you know, I think this is a few years after Transamerica had come out and we had a trans character, an ugly Betty who was played by a woman. So, you know, like it wasn't peak trans visibility. Um, so there was more a need for a group because there wasn't anywhere else for us to go. So Um, yeah. Had you met anyone who was Trans before going to transform? No. Yeah. No, it was transform [00:05:00] was the first time that I met. Um, Trans people, um I met Marie, and, um then I think it was maybe 2009 in, like, their holidays. I went to, um, um, which was organised by Elizabeth. And that was sort of my first time being around any, like, major queer people. You know, we're talking like a couple of 100 queer people in this. And, um, I think a lot [00:05:30] of people remember me from waking them up with pots and, like, running around in like a pink tutu might have gotten a name for myself. But, um, it was a really fun opportunity. And I think that was the first time that I really realised that there was a community out there and that it wasn't just me going alone by myself. Um, yeah. How did that feel to be? Um, it was really [00:06:00] exciting, and it was really reassuring. Um, to have that visibility to have that support. Um, and a lot of people were there to learn new things and to meet new people But for me, it was more just, um, an opportunity to be around people like me. Um, and to I think I ended up talking in one of the workshops as well. And that wasn't something that I had signed up for. But it was something that was important for those around [00:06:30] me, and it was just a really good learning opportunity. And, yeah, a reassuring moment for me. Yeah. So I guess you had already addressed that there weren't really any other similar groups before that one that were for trans people. Not that I'm aware of. No, um, there was, like nothing else was really brought up. You know, when you sort of searched for trans issues, you were sort of getting cross dresser and agenda and things like that, um, which are their own groups and they, [00:07:00] you know, for their own older people. Not maybe for an 11 year old. So, um, do you know what kind of did transform have any particular goals in mind when setting it up? Um, I'm not sure, because I wasn't really a part of that setting up phase, I think, um, as it grew bigger, or as it kept going? I think that it sort of, um there [00:07:30] was a lot more structure put in place around, you know, we'd have a social time, so that would be, like, board games. And then there'd be another time. The opposite time would be, you know, having someone come in and do a talk or education sort of thing. And, um, that was always really good. And yeah, there wasn't. Um I'm sure that there were goals and things, but that was not something that I was really aware of at that time. Fair enough. So what kind of, um, activities would you do? I can't really remember. I think [00:08:00] we used to do crafts. And we did, Um, we did, like round table discussions. And, um, I know that when I turned 13, they did a birthday party for me. They made me this beautiful, um, piece of art that has this big bee on it with butterflies all around it and and it it says It says it's got the big be in it. Then it says is for beautiful under it, and it's really beautiful. And it's one of my favourite things. [00:08:30] Um, yeah, I think it was really nice to have, like, another birthday party with, like, a second family. Almost. You know, um, how long do you think it took before they began to feel like a second family. Um, I don't think it was that long. I think that once we had moved to the new site, um, I felt very much like at home. I felt very comfortable. And I felt, um, [00:09:00] yeah, it just felt like what I needed, you know, And it just I would come in after school, and, um, I would generally be the first person there, and I could just sort of hang out and be myself and not have to worry. Um, I don't think I did any homework, which I probably should have done, but like, whatever. Yeah, more important things eat the food. But then I think when it moved when evolve moved over to the corner of [00:09:30] manners in Cuba, that's sort of when I stopped going. And I think that that was when I was around 15, 16. So, um, I just didn't have the need for it. You know, I sort of built up a social group at high school, and I had friends around me, and I, um, was in a sort of better place in my life. So, um, yeah, were any of, um So are you still friends with many of the people that you were in contact with and transform? [00:10:00] Um, yeah. Yeah, definitely. I'm still friends with a couple of them, Um, on the social media. Um, I'm trying. I don't think I really catch up with many of them anymore, though, Um, but not in a. Like, um, I hate each other just in, like, we're all busy working adults, so it's hard to find time, but, um, and he's in England, in Ireland, Scotland UK over the [00:10:30] other one. So but, um, we follow each other on the instagram and the and stuff so that that, like, with any intermediate school kind of you're still always friends, But, um, it just changes as you get older. So for sure, um, why did why did you feel, um, that transform was important for you personally, Um, it was important for me because it just sort of solidified that I wasn't this freak like I wasn't someone different. There was other [00:11:00] people like me that I could be who I wanted to be, and I, um and that Yeah, it just sort of affirmed how I was. And because you get that real negative rhetoric at the time, anyway, um, via the media and social media and even sometimes at school, that just sort of leaves you wondering and thinking, Um, so then you know, to have that one place where everything sort of reaffirmed it like, This is your space, These [00:11:30] are your people, and that's fine. And you're doing fine. You know, it's nice. That's awesome. Um, and so I guess, why do you think that transform was important? Just kind of all together as like, a space? I think, um, as time goes on, there will always be a need for somewhere like transform. There's always gonna be young trans people coming out who are so lost and have no idea where to start. But if their starting point is a group like transform, and then [00:12:00] it's a really important place to build that support network around them to learn in healthy ways, um, about all sorts of things that they need and, um, sort of have that connection within their own community that they may not have had else Where or, um, in other ways, particularly when a family is aren't supportive, then it helps to create that support network around them. Um, yeah. Were there any, uh, kind of memorable events or or moments that, [00:12:30] um when we went to Palmerston North, Um, that was really cute. So there was, um, Jack. Brian was on the Human Rights Commission. Um, and his partner was doing the assume. Nothing exhibition. Um and it was in Palmerston North, and so part of the Human Rights Commission was that they were going to organise a conference based around the exhibition. And so we went to talk about [00:13:00] transforming what that means And like, you've got to think that I was maybe 12 11 at this stage, and I was going to Palmerston North like Dad was dropping us off. And he was leaving like he was coming back the next day. And it was great. Like, I just remember, um, going to the supermarket, and they're like, you can get whatever you want and like you, telling like a 12 year old can get whatever you want in a supermarket is like mind blowing. You know, um, but Brooklyn was so good and so responsible, like no better. You know, [00:13:30] like you're not having three types of ice cream, you know, like so That's so cute. Yeah. Um and so, yeah, that was That was, I think, one of the one of the real memorable transform moments. And then there was the as well, the that was really, really lovely. Um, and that was where I first met Elizabeth and my family. My dad met Elizabeth as well. Um, yeah, yeah. Um, yeah. [00:14:00] So they were the first main, like events that I really remember. And, um, I guess from transform that lead into doing other activism sort of work and speaking at other events. And there was the, um that happened in Auckland, which is done with the money that coffee had won, was dancing with the stars. And it was all And so there was a big bus of, like, trans women schools out people that, like, went up to Auckland [00:14:30] or whatever. And that was awesome. You know, like this. Yeah, I just remember, you know, a crack of dawn. It was like, 5. 30 in the morning, all getting onto this bus and just what was it? But a malady was playing. Then the Spice World was playing. And then the Rocky Horror Picture show, like all this, like real camp films. Um, yeah. So there was that, and yeah, just like, just like the small moments as well of just, you know, having a laugh and playing games. [00:15:00] And, yeah, it was really good. Really cute. I was wondering if you want to elaborate on what, um, assume nothing was what the Yeah. So I assume nothing was, um it was a really groundbreaking photography exhibition. Um, it was at the heart, and it was it travelled the country, but it was at the and it was in the museum as well. And, um, Rebecca Swan, [00:15:30] I think her name was She is a photographer. And, um, she was documenting trans intersex bodies, um, and was photographing them. And, you know, some of them were had writing on their chest saying, like, I'm not a monster and like, this is who I am. And it was, um it was sort of putting a face to the rhetoric that you hear in the media and the negativity that you hear and the lies that are said, um, so it was quite a powerful thing. And [00:16:00] when you think as well that this was, you know, like 2009, 2010 like this was unheard of to put like a naked trans person in a museum. You know, Um, yeah, it was I was really young, so it sort of went over my head. But I've got the the book with all the photos in it now. And now that I look at it as I'm older, I'm like, wow, like they did good to get this, like, you know, in, um such prestigious places. [00:16:30] So, yeah, and and so you all bust up the transform or Yeah. So Dad drove us sweat, and it was just packed full of trans people and like all of our luggage to Palmerston North, and he dropped us all off. And then, yeah, he came and picked us all up the next day, and it was just really cute. And you got to think dad was in the army, you know? He's like a real military guy. He's not anymore. But he was, and, um, he was always really [00:17:00] proud of it. and always really happy to support. And yeah, it was just He was really cute. So awesome. Yeah. Um, and you mentioned I. I didn't catch the name but another that you went to the Do you want to talk about that a little bit as well. So was in 2009. And I think that that one, I think that that was, like, maybe the second or the third. I think it had run before I had gone. But, um, that was with the I think it was in foundation [00:17:30] and there might have been another org. That's not around now. Um, and it was kind of like inside out that they have now, but not just for young people. Because, of course, the youngest person was me at 11. And then there was someone who was like, 16. And then everyone else was in their twenties. So it was, like, quite like a different age bracket. Um, and I honestly can't remember a huge amount of the content of it. I just remember that I because I was [00:18:00] so young. I had a private room with Brooklyn and Brooklyn's husband at the time. Um, and that like, of course, young person. I was up really early, and I was helping him with breakfast, and then, like, you're going to wake everyone up. And so I was like, Well, give me a pen and a wooden spoon and yeah, waking everyone up and I just think you're a little 12 year old. Don't really get mad. Yeah, Yeah. All the lights are on. Someone's going around like banging a pot. Yeah, [00:18:30] that was me. Yeah. Yeah. And then the other one was, which was, um that was up in Auckland. And, um, I don't really know what that one was about, either. I think that that was really an opportunity to utilise the money that had been raised for Rainbow. You, um, in a way that actually benefited all of the community and brought everyone together, um, to network to meet, to start conversations, to learn, [00:19:00] um, and yeah, so that was that was quite nice. That was, um, that one was really big, actually, because it was on a proper campground. So there was, like, bunk beds and stuff. Um, and I remember getting really angry, and I demanded a room change because they wanted to put me with. There were a lot of other, like, people who had young kids, and they were all in a room. And they wanted to put me in the room with all these kids. And I was like, I'm not a child in context. [00:19:30] It's like you've got to think that I hadn't been surrounded by kids, you know, like, I've been surrounded by all these other people. So I was a lot more mature, in a sense, um, and so I got put in with a couple of the schools out facilitators, and that was really cute, but yeah, it's like I'm not sleeping with these kids like moment. How old are you? Like maybe, like, 14. 15 When you're 14. 15, you don't want to be with them. I mean, like, they [00:20:00] were like, some of them were like young. Some of them were 13 12, you know, definitely in the age. Right. But because I hadn't been surrounded by that, like, for me, it was like, Who do you think I am? Like, I don't deserve it. Um, so, like, I guess reflecting back, um, what do you feel That, uh, has been transform's biggest achievements Um, I think Transform's biggest achievement is the fact that it's still going. I think [00:20:30] that through all the hurdles, um, having no sustainable funding is another big thing. The fact that it's still going coming into it, it's like 11th year is phenomenal, and I think that that is something that, um doesn't get enough recognition that it hasn't faulted over those 11 years. You know, there's been hurdles and it's been stressful, and there's been volunteer breakdowns because it's been so stressful. But it's still always had a space within our community, and it's always still been there to support people. [00:21:00] And it's always, um, yeah, been that hub. So, um, that in itself is a massive achievement. But, um, I think moving forward when council needs to look at more long term sustainable funding. And I think the government also should be held accountable for that. Um and yeah, so this well-being budget we'll see, but not holding out of my house. But hey, it's fine. We've got a rainbow crossing. [00:21:30] We don't have any money to pay for a venue. We can just sit in the middle of the road. Maybe they'll build us a trans umbrella that we can sit under when I was just sitting on the crossing cars like a political statement, but also like, Well, where else are we supposed to go like? This is supposed to make us feel safer. Didn't you say this was our space? [00:22:00] That's so funny. Yeah, um, I do. You think, um, I suppose maybe this is too big a question I was gonna ask. Do you feel hopeful that there might be any kind of kind of government support at any stage? Or do you think it's still, um I think it's interesting because I find a lot of the labour MP S are all talk. So, you know, they've always been there for our community, but now they're back in power, so I feel like they're not [00:22:30] quite as much as they were. But I think if the greens are still with us, then I have high hopes that they will, Um, I know that they've, you know, managed to get through a lot of what they've wanted to get through. And I'm sure that coming up to the next election, that that will be on their agendas, But I don't have high hopes for Justin Lester. I feel very much, um, like he's definitely all talk. Um, and it it's also the thing of you know, you can say [00:23:00] that there's funding for us, but when we say we need funding, that doesn't mean that we're gonna that we have the time and the resources to constantly be applying for funding grants that aren't actually going to do a huge amount, but also within then having to compete with other marginalised groups within the city. So, um, that's not sustainable. And, um, yeah, so it'll be interesting, sort of where it goes over the next two years with the different budgets and elections that are happening. Um, [00:23:30] yeah, like when you look at it as well in the sense of, like the community events that I've been to the elite ones, I'm saying in brackets because you know, So there's so many events in our community that are invite only. So then it's like it's community, but it's invite only so sorry you're not on the list, but so many of them. Um, you know, for years we always had our good old faithfuls. We had Jen, Louisa and Grant, and then in the last, like, couple of years. You really only see Jen. [00:24:00] You don't see the other two anymore nearly as much as you used to. Um, which is sad in a way that, um you know, we help sort of get them where they are. And now they're just sort of like, Well, I'm too busy for you. Whereas it's the Yeah, Jan is always there, you know? And she's always, um, whether it's a face or whether it's behind the scenes, she's always has that support. So that green wig, but not just like the green wig, but also, you know, like [00:24:30] at Xena's vigil, she was there, you know, like, that was not an event for her to publicise off. That was her being there for the community. And that's a really powerful, important moment. And that was the sort of thing that I would have expected. Like Grant to try and be at, You know, um and I don't think he was He might have been, but I don't think so. Do you want, um, just for the recording purposes? Say what zenas event was? Yeah. So, um, at the start of last year, 2018 was murdered and she was left in her car. [00:25:00] Um, and there was awful reporting done on it. There was, um, so much misgender. And there was, um it was just an awful, like, two months. I think it was. And in the end, no one was sort of talking about it. No one was acknowledging it. And, um, I'm a real believer and you can't complain if you don't do something about it. It's like when people are like, I don't like the government, But I also don't vote because I don't believe in it. It's like, Well, OK, you can't complain about it if you haven't, [00:25:30] you know, done something. So I had worked with the council to organise a vigil for people to come together and to grieve together and to acknowledge in a way, um, that we would be together. Um, and it was really difficult because one of the comments that really left me was one of the ladies from Saint Andrews on the terrace, and she was really upset, and she was like, This is the first year that we'll have someone from New Zealand to say on transgender day remembrance, and that was [00:26:00] really hard. Um, and it wasn't an event to come and to be a publicised event. It was an event for us to come together as a community, and Jan showed up to that and none of the others did. Um and you've got to think that there is a Rainbow Cross party caucus, right? Like there are rainbow members of Parliament that you would have expected some of them to show up, and they didn't. Um, the council was really supportive, and I don't think Justin showed up either. I think that he had something else happening. Um, [00:26:30] and the Dominion Post was terrible and they really wanted They had said to me the day before that they wanted to talk to family and stuff. And I said, Don't bother. No one's interested. We're not giving you any time to run any more shit like it's not happening. It was very aggressive. I'm real strict on this media. We're not giving you time of day. If you're not going to show that respect back to us, it's a two way thing. Um, but we were really lucky because Felix [00:27:00] was there who was a part of our community and is now working at the Dom Post. And, um, he was like, I just want to, you know, take some photos and do some interviews, if that's OK. And I was like, of course, like, I'm here to support that, um, but then there was also, like, the like, a really high up manager at the Dominion Post was there, and I told him to fuck off. I was like, We don't want you here. Family doesn't want you here. You can leave. Um, [00:27:30] and then the next day, Felix's article and the photos and Zena was like front page, and it was all properly gendered. And it was like we have waited, like, two months for this to happen, and it was finally there, and it was, um yeah, it was really powerful. And it was really important. So and I think Lena had actually attended, transform or had, you know, seek out that support via evolve. So yeah, good on you standing up to the dom post. I mean, it's not the first time I'm pretty aggressive [00:28:00] with media. Um I think the day before the youth ball, when we first did the first Wellington Pride Youth Ball um, someone from one news called and they're like, Hey, we really want to interview some trans people about how awful their school balls were and how this will be better. And I It's like, OK, so that's not happening because you can't just come. But you would think that we had two weeks full of, you know, first time youth events. We had 12 youth events that had never happened before, including, like a private walkthrough of an exhibition at the City [00:28:30] Art Gallery and Drake Queen Story time. And now you're coming to us on the very last day saying, You want to do something with a sad spin not happening If you really want to be supportive of our community, you could have come two weeks ago and you could have said We want to highlight the positives that you're doing and the volunteers in the car were like, Oh, my gosh, I like It was peak stress, like I had only just been confirmed the budget for the ball that morning, and it was happening the next day. [00:29:00] Um, and we still had so much to do and get ready, and I had just finished work early to try and get a lot of it done. And then this person called and she was so cheery, and I was like, No, not happening. So, um yeah, and they have a history of yelling at me. Be proud of awesome. Um, I have one last question. Um, and [00:29:30] how do you think that things have changed for trans youth over the last 10 years? Um, I think it's changed significantly. So I think that, um, internationally, it's changed. We've got so much more digital support as well. Um, and with groups like transform, there is the opportunity for trans people to come out at such younger ages. Um, and there's more education for their parents and their families as well, because I think that that was sort of one of the biggest hurdles [00:30:00] was that we were dealing with a generation that excuse me, had never experiences. They never understood this, you know, they have had really only sort of heard about the radical gays from the eighties, you know, um so, having trans people, they that was a whole new ball game for them. Um, so with the education and understanding and their positive visibility, it's meant that our trans young people have been able to come out be themselves, Um, and also just the labels that people use [00:30:30] and the pronouns that people use. And, um, it's all just shaped and grown in such a beautiful, big, supportive way. There's still, um, a huge underlying issue of the turfs. Um, do you want to explain what is? Um, yeah. So the trans exclusionary radical feminists who, um, their sort of views are that trans women aren't real women and that they're just women pretending to infiltrate men's spaces. Um, and that, um, trans [00:31:00] men are just lesbians that have been coerced by said Trans woman um, lesbian, like we support their choices. We just immensely disagree with them. Um, and I, I don't think that they fully grasp the harm and the hurt that their messages portray. Um, and yes, I think having these feminist exclusionary people, [00:31:30] um, it's a really big underlying issue. But I'm going to put my own horn for a second. And last year I got the opportunity to meet the Duchess of Sussex, me and Michael, and it was a part of an event that I was there with rainbow youth. Um and I was like, you know, it was set up in a way that you were going to meet one of the Royals, right? And so Francis, from Rain Youth was like, OK, what are we going to talk about? And I was like, Well, OK, this is my second event, like with the Royals. Like [00:32:00] I went to Government house and I heard her speak about her feminism and all of that and how important and empowering it is and stuff. And so I was like, What we're going to talk about is we're going to talk about if we're going to talk about feminism, that that includes Trans Woman and that, um she acknowledges that in both England and New Zealand, there's a huge uprising of trans exclusionary feminism at the moment. And they were like, Oh, yeah, yeah, whatever. And so then Megan came over and she was like, So tell me about the work you do. And I was like, Let me tell you, and I was like, [00:32:30] um talking about how you know at the moment in England and New Zealand, we've got such a large uprising of feminism that doesn't include trans woman and she grabbed my arm. And she's like, Oh, my gosh, I was hearing about this, and I was horrified. Tell me more. And I was like, Oh, here we go. This is perfect. So, um, knowing that the Royals are on the same board as us makes me feel a little bit more hopeful in the, um, ways that we talk about [00:33:00] feminism, Um, and that it is a really big issue. But at the same time, it's a really small vocal minority that just happen to have a lot of money in power, which is disappointing, but, um hopeful. Yeah, awesome. Well, um, do you have any other thoughts about anything that you want to talk about now, or, um, no, I don't think so. I think that pretty much, um, sort of sums up transform and yeah.

IRN: 2076
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/auckland_pride_max_tweedie.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004565
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089859
TITLE: Max Tweedie - Director of Auckland Pride
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Max Tweedie
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; ASB Bank; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland Pride Festival; Auckland Pride festival (2019); Auckland Pride festival (2020); Max Tweedie; OUTLine NZ; Pride parade (Auckland); Rainbow Pride Auckland; Rainbow Youth; Spark; Stonewall riots (1969); Wellington; corporate sponsorship; heteronormativity; intersex; non-binary; police; queer; trans; transgender; uniform
DATE: 28 May 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Max Tweedie talks about becoming the new Director of Auckland Pride. This interview was recorded a month prior to Max starting in the role on 24 June 2019.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Max Tweedy, and I have just been appointed the new director of Pride. Um, for the Auckland Pride Festival Incorporated. Um, and I've, uh, grew up in Wellington and moved to Auckland about a year and a half ago. Um, have been highly involved in kind of community work in rainbow communities and so really excited to take this role on what does the role involve? So the role is essentially, it takes, um, all of the responsibility of the operation aspects of the Auckland Pride Festival, Um, from the board, uh, and [00:00:30] kind of puts it all into one role. So, um, that's, you know, around funding around media around, um, planning the festival, and and, um, stakeholders and sponsorships and all of the kind of, um, all of that stuff that makes that festival so good. Um uh comes into my role. So it's all that operational aspect. So, what drew you to this role? Um, I loved the Auckland Pride Festival this year. The 2019 Pride Festival. I, um the the more kind of grassroots, [00:01:00] uh, nature that it took, um, the form that that took really, um, resonated with me and my, um, the way that I see pride. Um, and so to me, it was a fantastic opportunity to be able to kind of, uh, continue to support Auckland pride in the in the amazing work that they do, uh, and kind of bring my own skills and and and values and and way that I see pride to ensure that we create an amazing Auckland Pride festival in 2020 beyond. That, [00:01:30] um, really recognises and reflects the diversity of our rainbow communities and and looks to kind of, um, empower them, um, and and also and celebrate where we've come from and and showcase some artists and all that sort of stuff. So, yeah. So then what does mean to you? I mean, I guess pride for me, um, has its fundamental roots. Um, going all the way back to stonewall. Um, you know, in in 1969 and and looking at the kind of the liberation movement, um, and [00:02:00] the kind of the fight that it was against the status quo. Um, pride to me is political. Um, it it kind of it it represents, and it challenges that heter noms nom, um, status quo that has, um, structurally disadvantaged us throughout our history. Um, so pride is about celebrating our community. It's about celebrating our uniqueness of what makes us queer. Um, and why that's so important. Um, and actually, what we have to offer [00:02:30] to to the world to society, um, and our different perspectives. So for me, pride is it's a celebration, um, of who we are. Um, Now, it's also a celebration of how far we've come. But I believe it should also be a platform of of where we get to go. And I think that's still especially relevant. Um, in a so 2019, uh, the Auckland community seem to have, uh, fractured around the kind of Pride festival and Pride parade in particular. How are you going to, uh, bring those communities [00:03:00] back together? Yeah, and that's a that's a difficult one. And and, um, a question that I think not only myself, but the the Pride board and our kind of community as a whole have is kind of reckoning with at the moment. But for me, I think we have to return to our really core values and our shared, um, experiences of what it is to be queer, um, and understanding, um, and really going back to those fundamental roots of Of why is why what makes us queer. Why is that so important? Um, and and what do those [00:03:30] values of what we all believe pride should be actually look like and kind of have those discussions from a values based perspective. I think we got caught up, um, in a lot of the details, um, where potentially people needed to take a step back and look at it and look at actually a bigger picture. Um, on both sides of the argument. Um, so I I'm really looking forward to having some really, um, really in depth discussions with the community and and hearing their ideas. About what? That [00:04:00] you know what that festival looks like from that values perspective. So So this is more than the parade itself. This is the festival wide. You? Yeah, absolutely. Um the I mean, the Auckland Pride Festival has always been more than just the parade. Um, the the parade has been a fantastic showcase historically. Um, but also, we've had some amazing queer artists activists, um, all sorts of people who have been able to put events on, um, during the festival and kind of share the the wonderfulness of their queerness. So, um, [00:04:30] certainly the discussions about about the essence of what it is to be queer and in the community, and And what does the festival represents that I think takes place across the whole, um, festival and not just the, um, not just the parade. So So what are your initial thoughts in terms of bringing communities back together or or building those bridges again? Yeah, I think it's the community who that have been had. Um, you know, and the pride board have already started having those conversations again. The Pride board held [00:05:00] a couple of, um who, um, earlier in the year, um, to to to go. What does that actually 2020 look like? So I think it's, um I think it's very easy for those discussions to be held, um, online and not such a healthy and constructive way. Um, so I'm really interested in in in bringing people together in spaces and having a well facilitated, um, area where we can really flesh these ideas out and and understand from that values perspective. What does pride mean to people? And therefore, what does that actually look like? So I think it's about [00:05:30] I think it's about conversations. I think it's about looking at it from a values based perspective, Um, and making sure that everyone feels heard and valued. Um, in that discussion, do you think the Auckland Pride board should have done anything differently this year? Uh, from how they how they acted reacted. I think looking back on it is not essentially helpful. Um, and I don't think, um, like, what? What's done is done. And what we have to do is we have to ensure, um, that the festival represents our our community. [00:06:00] Um, and I would I would say that it did this year. Um, and I'm and I'm definitely looking forward to delivering one that does it this year. So So? So what do you think the biggest challenges are for the 2020 festival? I think I mean, I think we've probably touched on them already. I think the the challenges about that, um, as a more, um, full community buy in getting that back. Um, that's a challenge. And I think also obviously with the um, set up of a of an organisation that says that they're going to deliver a pride [00:06:30] parade as well. Um, rainbow pride, Auckland, um, that, you know, ensuring that, uh, working with them and and a relationship with them is constructive and serves actually in the best interests of our community. So I think those are the kind of two key challenges that certainly look for and that spread that goes, you know, that's a role also, not just for myself as director, but also for, um, that elected, you know, board that sits above me as well. It's a kind of mixed governments, governance and and operational type, uh, to deal. But we certainly work together to ensure the best outcomes for our community. So [00:07:00] some of the issues that, uh, cropped up this year were things like, um, corporate sponsorship, corporate participation and also things like police and corrections wearing uniforms. Do you have any thoughts on those? I think obviously I think there's a role for, um, corporations. Um, because they you know, and I but I think there's a it doesn't necessarily play out the way that necessarily we've seen it play out. I really like the examples of organisations such as Spark really backing outlined, Um, and obviously seeing a synergy [00:07:30] in their work, uh, and, you know, outline, um, being able to, you know, spark providing outline with a whole bunch of resources and actually really supporting them in the work they do, Um, and, you know, with with a SB the way that they sponsor Rainbow Youth and and are behind rainbow youth on a whole bunch of their activities. That, to me, is a much better synergy for Corporates to actually invest in our community. Um, so I guess that that would be where my thinking is, I. I would I would kind of, um, hope for a more meaningful engagement, [00:08:00] Um from from businesses in that space. Um, but I mean, you know, and on the on the police coming into this, it's no secret I've been, um I was a supporter of the board's decision to, um to ask police to to just march in T shirts. Um, but you know that that conversation going forward is is one that we're having going to have constructively with, um, the New Zealand Police. And ultimately it's a decision for the um, the Pride Board about their involvement going forward. And this year So [00:08:30] the the the the kind of, um, Auckland parade, as we kind of knew it over the previous years didn't happen. But a march did happen, and you marched in that. How was that? It was fantastic. Um, I loved it. It was it felt really centred in community. It felt centred in like in more of those queer roots that I was talking about, You know, there were There were people that were celebrating how far we come. There were people, especially from our trans non-binary intersex communities that were looking [00:09:00] at how far we get to go and and using this march through Auckland's busiest street as a platform to be able to show people that we have work to do. And that to me, um, is, you know, quite core to what pride is. Um, there were roughly I think the estimate was 3. 5 1000 people, um, that did that march from Albert Park to Myers Park, and and the feeling the vibe was was it was so it was so beautifully queer. It was so full of pride and celebration and happiness. And it was, [00:09:30] um it was truly fantastic. Certainly a different feeling. Um, it's a different feeling. I'm not saying that, you know, like in a pride parade. You know, I was in the Auckland Pride parade. I've been the Wellington one and also over in Sydney at Mardi Gras and being in their parade, the feelings are all different. Um, and and the vibes all different. But I certainly love the community grassroots queer feeling of of the march. So, um, and I think a lot of the community did, too. So looking forward to the Pride Festival in 2020 what will a successful festival look like? [00:10:00] What? What for? You successful festival for me. I don't want to kind of quantify it at the moment. Obviously, I'm not in the role yet, so I haven't looked at how, you know, like, actually those numbers in terms of maybe festival registrations or audience numbers. Um, but what I am keen on is delivering a festival that celebrates how far we've come and celebrates those pioneers that have brought us to where we've come that showcases the diversity and the brilliance of our queer communities. Um and and and whatever form [00:10:30] that takes art performance, drag all those sorts of things from a really community perspective and empowering those that maybe haven't been able to participate in the festival before to be able to do that, um, but also provide a platform where we're able to look at and kind of fight for the rights that we're still yet to gain. Um, you know, and these things are as simple as banning conversion therapy or, um, you know, the birth certificate legislation so that trans people can self identify or protections for intersex [00:11:00] people. Human rights act like there's a bread. There's so many, um, areas in which we've got work to do and and so I think that that pride is a is a fantastic platform for us to to look at where we have to go. Um, and I certainly am keen to to ensure, um, that that that is a platform that we empower those people within the communities that may have felt a bit shut out of pride before, um, to to have their voices heard.

IRN: 2079
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/parliaments_rainbow_room_interviews.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004566
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089860
TITLE: Rainbow Room interviews
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Des Smith; Georgina Beyer; Louisa Wall; Tim Barnett
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Assembly Of God; Bill Logan; Charles Chauvel; Chris Carter; Christianity; Civil Union Act (2004); Des Smith; Elizabeth Kerekere; Fran Wilde; Georgina Beyer; Grant Robertson; Heterosexuals Unafraid of Gays (HUG); Homosexual Law Reform; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Human Rights Act (1993); John Jolliff; Katherine O'Regan; Louisa Wall; Lower Hutt; Manners Mall; Margaret Wilson; Marilyn Waring; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Member of Parliament; New Zealand Police; Parliament buildings; Paul Noble; Salvation Army; Stonewall riots (1969); Tim Barnett; Tino Rangatiratanga flag; Trevor Mallard; United States of America; Wellington; Wellington Pride; Zealandia; age of consent; birthday; civil unions; cooking; diversity; environment; gay; homosexual; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; inclusion; lesbian; marriage; marriage equality; newspapers; petition; photocopy; police; politics; posters; takatāpui; taonga; transgender
DATE: 28 May 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Yeah. Tim Barnett as a member of Parliament from 1996 to 2008. Um, I guess I was the first guy who was openly gay before he got elected to Parliament. I mean, the Rainbow Room now the revamped, wonderful, simple but colourful rainbow room where we actually have the images of the queer PS, which was one thing, Uh, just 11 years ago, we thought was too much to do and too complicated. But now it's a sign of progress [00:00:30] that the pitchers are up, up and proud, and that and this is an emotional night and it's a really special time to be here. And Timmy, you you had a hand in in making the original Rainbow Room. Yeah, because we're in a corridor of parliament which has the the Maori Affairs Room. It has a room dedicated women parliamentarians to Pacific Island parliamentarians to Asian parliamentarians and my rationality. So why why have we got that and not a rainbow room and persuaded the outgoing speaker [00:01:00] in 2008 to actually agree to a room being dedicated? It was pretty low key, but also quite a powerful event in here a lot of tears. I remember Marilyn Waring was here, and for her it was, I think, the first time she'd been back to the building for many years. So it was a quiet beginning for the whole thing I wrote. I was leaving Parliament that year. I wrote to all the the queer PS elected in this election and said to them, Just make sure you act as guardians and I think they have done because [00:01:30] it's taken time. But now now we have a parliamentary leadership here keen to celebrate these things, and that's simply wonderful. And it's just been refurbished. And it's coming up to the 50th anniversary of Yeah, indeed. And what better this is? I mean, this is really the story here of, uh, of getting on for 50 years and when Marilyn first got into the Parliament. So this is our own 50 years of celebration. 50 years of political movements, but also with [00:02:00] the six pieces of legislation on the wall. It's actually a room which isn't just about people. It's also about real laws passed in this place, and that's what political legacy is all about. So when you walk into this room. Now What? What? What is the feeling you get? The feeling is that we've not only arrived, but we're here to stay that this is an embedded part of this building to signify our collective contribution as queer MP S. But also the fact that we're here [00:02:30] on behalf of a big movement without which that legislation will never have passed. And we rely on our our straight brothers and sisters in this place to make progress. Oh, hi. I'm Georgina Baer. Currently, we're standing outside Select Committee room number 11 in our parliament. Uh, but it's got a new name now, or a renew name. It's the Rainbow Room. And what an amazing event tonight. So we've had a book launch, and also [00:03:00] the relaunch of this rainbow room. That's right. It's been a significant evening. And, um, I have to say the do a horrible sort of select committee functional room that it was is now alive with bright colour and a true reflection of our wonderfully diverse rainbow community. It is marvellous to see the honouring of, um, the pieces of legislation. At least four or five of them at least, um, have been framed and properly given a place of honour, um, as one thing [00:03:30] and some rather fun photographs of all the to date 16 out gay MP S who have served in our New Zealand Parliament now during the launch. Um, there were quite a number of accolades for you. What was it like receiving those those words? Well, obviously they are always very humbling to hear, particularly when it's from people who are from overseas. And, um, you know, we have this tall poppy syndrome thing that goes on here in New Zealand quite often, and we're a humble people, really quite modest [00:04:00] in many ways. And, um, but to hear reflected back that any impact I might have had by my activities and politics or anything else had a profound effect for younger people who saw hope and worth fighting to live, but only with equality. And fair enough, too. And I'm just one of many. I stand on the shoulders. Obviously, that term has been used a lot of, uh, people [00:04:30] who went before me. I came at a time that for the transgender community, it gave a boost to morale, um, internationally and of course, locally, um, to see that the art of the possible is attainable when it seems so impossible. So that's always good to leave that kind of hope. When you walked into the rainbow Room tonight, what was the feeling you got? Oh, I got a feeling of happy warmth descending upon [00:05:00] me It felt embracing, actually very comfortable and at home, uh, for a place that's in an institution like parliament a space that, um, uh represents and reflects us, but celebrates us, I get a sense of celebration. I mean, I'd have to say the Pacific Island Room is vibrant, obviously with a focus on P i art and culture and et cetera. The women's suffrage room is simple. Similar of Maori Affairs Select Committee room, Beautiful Tonga, Um, in there. [00:05:30] So our rainbow room is now a rainbow. Tonga placed in our parliament a very appropriate place. It's also the 50th anniversary coming up of Stonewall in the United States. And I'm wondering, what would you if if I said to you say something to somebody in 50 years time, say something to like an LGBTI person in 50 years time? What would that be? That I hope you are living the freedom we all desired and largely achieved. And that you can live your lives [00:06:00] happy in your own skin. My advice would be still be vigilant. There will be elements in our wider society that will be haters, and we need to stand up to them. I'm sure that won't change sadly, by the time this message gets to you. Um, but, um uh, but nevertheless, I hope you live a future that we, at this point in time, dreamed of achieving. It's [00:06:30] here MP for, uh, lesbian. And we're here outside the Fabulous Relaunch Rainbow Room at the New Zealand Parliament. Can you tell me what it was like to walk into the Rainbow Room tonight? It was actually pretty sensational. To be honest, it is just a fabulous celebration. Uh, of all the work that's happened in this Parliament that is specific to our GVT saw these amazing people smiling back at me. Uh, one of which was me. But the fact that 16 of us have graced these hallowed, uh, walls [00:07:00] and actually been involved in the parliamentary process And then to see Elizabeth S piece of art as a centrepiece with an array of our flags including our flag to symbolise our indigenous identity is incredibly special. And also to see people like Fran Wilde and Georgina here. Oh, look, Fran, Georgina. Catherine O'Regan. Marilyn Waring. You know, these are our pioneers. Joined by Chris Carter. Tim Barnett, [00:07:30] Um, Charles who unfortunately, wasn't here, Grant. I mean, there's just a lot of us. So, actually, if you think about, uh, our contribution to the Parliament, it has been about issues to do with social justice. Human rights. Um, but it's a wonderful feeling to be so celebrated, to be honest, and that was kind of my point. We've moved on beyond just a chronology of things that have happened in this place to the ability to tell our stories ourselves in our own words. And then to, um, celebrate the identity [00:08:00] that is our G BT IQ. Plus, it's pretty cool. I'm very, very proud of our parliament and our speaker, uh, for his leadership and making this happen. And why is it important to have a rainbow room within Parliament itself? Because it is a specific identity that speaks to, uh, our support for but also recognition and celebration of. And that's, uh, for me um, one of the most important things. We are being very clear as a parliament that LGBTI Q [00:08:30] people are, uh, contributors in this house, and we deserve a specific space. Uh, that celebrates and acknowledges our work here. And so I think, to be honest, it's going to become a highlight of all the tours. I'm pretty certain if they do, uh, a bit of a survey at the end and say, which room was your favourite? I'm picking that. Our one is because it's so diverse and it's so inclusive. And I think that's the other thing that speaks to me. It's just so bright, vibrant and [00:09:00] colourful. And I hope that every single LGBTI young person who walks into that room sees themselves and says, Wow, I'm I belong. I'm here in parliament, you know, I have a place, Uh, I have a In some ways, this is that place and I want our young people to be able to use this facility so that, I think is the other aspect is how can we promote us usage a bit more so that our community can have these celebrations? We've We've had young people previously with the uh, Wellington Pride Festival. [00:09:30] So we've hosted afternoon teas. Um but I think now we need to open the doors wider and allow more of us to come in. So, deers here we are at the launch of the Rainbow Room in Parliament, and we've just gone through a very moving opening ceremony. Well, it was moving also the people surrounding who were involved. And I stood next to Fran M. And while I was staying next to her, I had these visions of homosexual law reform [00:10:00] and her office in parliament and how active I was was and also the the campaign and what we were doing. And we were putting posters up around the town. And every time we did it, Fran's office was blasted with phone calls from the anti. Now one guy used to come round with a paint scraper and scrape them off. So the next night, I went with a friend who helped out and we had a ladder. So we put up way high. We waited [00:10:30] and along came this so-called Christian to scrape our posters off. And of course, he stood there. He could not get to them. So there we are but we did. But when Fran was there, I did have a flashback of quite a lot that happened during homosexual reform. It was a struggle, and there was things that were very hard to cope with at times. But I must say that Bill Logan, who unfortunately is not here tonight was a person who saved lives. And [00:11:00] I remember when one time I was so down and it was Bill Logan who was the helper. So there we are, So homosexual law reform. I mean, that's over 30 years ago. But to you, does it just seem like yesterday? Well, it did seem like yesterday when Fran was standing next to me, I had these visions of going up to that office in Parliament and those days you didn't have to go through security like you do now. So it was just roaring up the stairs into Fran's office, seeing what I could do, and then I was told, Oh, I've had all these phone [00:11:30] calls, all these posters up around the town again. And then, uh, there were other thing issues like we had a lot of printed material to put out, and, uh, I used to use the copy machines in parliament. Don't tell anybody that, but it was a way to get this message across. And then we did lots of handouts and manners Mall, um, which was great. The worst place doing homosexual law reform was High Street Lower hut. We actually were spat [00:12:00] on by a group from the Assembly of God church and our table tipped over. But manners mall Wellington was wonderful. People were so supportive. And if you got someone up coming up to you who was anti there was soon plenty of people around who were supportive. But some odd things did happen during that time. I remember some policemen coming up and with their wives, and they said, Well, you got lesbians and gays. Well, can't you just put a lesbian [00:12:30] with a gay and there's no problem. And I remember a wife of one of them lunged them and said, Don't be so bloody stupid. But anyway, that was, uh, lots of memories came back standing next to Fran Fran, and I imagine it would have been a completely different atmosphere because back then, it wasn't guaranteed. The bill would get passed, and we we tonight we're celebrating, but then it must have been incredibly, um, scary. Well, the thing with Fran was she was worried about [00:13:00] people like myself who had come out at that period and become very public, because then we would have been targeted by the police. Now, during the presentation of the homosexual law reform, um, at Parliament of the, uh, anti, um protest the What was it the the petition. A petition with the petition on which was like a Nuremberg rally. Now, Paul Noble, who was Maori and tattooed, was whacked [00:13:30] on the head and shoved into a paddy wagon. And I was doing more to Rab Rebel or the crowd than Paul Noble. But because I was white and I remember that and thinking Oh, Paul should never have been, uh, treated like that. And then what I did was, uh, the police were lined up so we couldn't go near all these, uh, so called Christians and Salvation Army. And I had a hug badge. I don't know if you know about hug, but [00:14:00] the hug heterosexuals una afraid of gaze. I had, um I had one pink triangle and nine hug badges, and I said OK and I counted out 10 policemen and I yelled out to the crowd. Which one do we put the peg triangle on? And which one do we put the hug badge on? And of course, the crowd loved it. But I tell you what. When I looked around at the faces of the police at that stage because they were supporting what was [00:14:30] the law? When I looked around and I saw, I thought, Fuck, I'm in for trouble and I disappeared. But, uh, the interesting thing is, it was at that time that John first noticed me and I was collecting $5 off people, each person to put an ad in the dom or in the papers in New Zealand. We were collecting money of What was it, 16 or nothing? It was equality because [00:15:00] a lot were would have voted for 21 and we were 16 or nothing. And so we wanted this ad in the paper and I was collecting money. And that was the time that John and I first made contact. And John is your husband. That's right. We are married and we had the first civil union in New Zealand. Well, I don't know if it was the first civil union. But our civil union, uh, certificate The licence is CU one. And we [00:15:30] We were there to get up at the office right on that first day, and we got CU one. And then we got our civil union, and that was in 2005 on the first of May. And then we had a wedding 10 years to the exact, uh, time, Uh, 10 years later, 2015, we had our wedding where we held it at. And Grant Robertson said tonight in his speech that, [00:16:00] um uh, John is 90 this year. In a couple of weeks, I'm John's 90. I'm 80. So that makes us 100 and 70 now, other than all the gay rights and every other thing I'm planting 170 native trees around, uh, like in the hills that, uh, and reforestation and around Cummings Park. 100 and 70 native trees to celebrate our anniversary or our birthdays. [00:16:30] Oh, that's so sweet. So there we are, So not only on human rights, but I think, uh, environmental. Um, yeah, I. I, uh, an awareness of the environment that we've got to really, really start getting more people aware of the environment. So, deers would you like to give a very special birthday message to John via this recording? Of course. Yeah. Yeah. John, it's been a fabulous time with you, right? For 31 [00:17:00] years of living together and I just wanna just say you are the greatest. And maybe we have more years of where we can really enjoy life. And we are going to New York. We're flying off to New York to, uh, help or enjoy the celebrations of the 50th anniversary of Stonewall. So, uh, yeah. So, John. Yeah. You are very special. And, uh, you've kept me. Uh, [00:17:30] yeah, Fed. He's a good cook. I don't know if you remember what the, um what was It was the push for the marriage equality bill. And John and I gave a submission, and it was the guy in parliament with a and, uh, he said, Oh, if you get married, who will be the mis and who will be the missus? And I thought, Oh, stupid question. But I said to him, Look, if it's any help to you, John does most of the cooking so that [00:18:00] that sort of broke the ice. And there we are. So there we are, but, um, I do most of the gardening. John does most of the cooking, but we don't play roles. No, we are two men married and happy. Yeah.

IRN: 2077
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/parliaments_rainbow_room_reopening.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004567
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089861
TITLE: Re-opening of the Rainbow Room at Parliament
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Adrian Rurawhe; Andrew Reynolds; Grant Robertson; Jan Logie; Louisa Wall; Peter Tatchell; Sarah McBride; Trevor Mallard
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Adrian Rurawhe; Andrew Reynolds; Aotearoa New Zealand; Chris Bishop; Chris Carter; Criminal Records (Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences) Act 2018; Des Smith; Elizabeth Kerekere; Fran Wilde; Gandhi; Harvey Milk; Historic Convictions; Jack O'Donnell; John Jolliff; Katherine O'Regan; Margaret Wilson; Marilyn Waring; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Member of Parliament; Parliament buildings; Peter Tatchell; Rainbow Room; Ruth Dyson; San Francisco; Sarah McBride; Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar; Stonewall riots (1969); The Children of Harvey Milk (book); Tim Barnett; United States of America; Venn Young; Wellington; YMCA (Wellington); activism; books; gay; lesbian; love; politics; trans; transexual; transgender
DATE: 28 May 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, [00:00:30] and, uh [00:01:00] uh [00:01:30] oh. Oh, it to go Mhm. I know. And Yeah, OK. [00:02:00] Oh, Oh, oh, yeah. Uh, [00:02:30] everybody. And welcome to the relaunch of our rainbow Room and also the launch of, uh, the Children [00:03:00] of Harvey Milk Book. Can I firstly, thank uh, our colleague Adrian for his tonight. And also obviously an acknowledgement of, uh, Mr Speaker for his hosting. Can I also add our welcome to our international guests to Andy and your team, Uh, and many others who have travelled to be here, uh, we particularly want to acknowledge our community members, our community leaders, and [00:03:30] I think you all should be aware we have youth representatives from all of our political parties that was specifically done because we wanted to acknowledge, I guess the history, the legacy, but also the fact we've got a lot more work to do. So Jen and I co-chair our cross party LGBT group with Chris Bishop, who sends his apologies. I see, uh, Erica Stanford here, And if there are any, there are many other colleagues but the people that have been actively involved [00:04:00] in our cross party group, uh, and I also want to acknowledge the diplomatic community have joined us tonight We have representatives from the USA from Australia, from France, Britain, Argentina, Canada, the Netherlands and Germany. So we are here of project uplift. And that's what I'm gonna call it, Mr. Speaker, we'll talk about that. Uh, and also the launch of the book for Children of Harvey Milk. There are posters, uh, at the end of where the books are [00:04:30] it celebrate the 16 LGBT, uh, members of our parliament. So that's my welcome. I'm not I'm gonna over to my colleague, uh, who's going to do a more formal welcome? Not sure about the formal bit. Um, I don't think it's our typical style, but I did want to acknowledge, um, add my voice as a co-chair to acknowledge all of you here, Mr Speaker, Former and current ministers [00:05:00] and members of Parliament, members of the Rainbow Network uh, members of the diplomatic corps CEO commissioner, who I understand is here, and the head of parliamentary services, the deputy clerk of the Health and House and the team responsible for the amazing room that we're about to see, uh, this evening and the youth wings of our political parties and community leaders and friends. Um, so just to explain that the [00:05:30] Rainbow Network is Parliament's equivalent of a gay straight alliance that you might find in a school where a mix of people from different parties, but and sexual orientations I think we've all got the same gender identity but not making assumptions. Um, and we're all committed to progressing LGBT QI a plus rights through parliament. Um, and we all you network into our [00:06:00] parties to do this. Um, and I behalf of one of the co chairs I really want to add our we my welcome to this event, the opening of the Rainbow Room that finally, I think, reflects the vibrancy and diversity of our community And, um, and the documentary that we will see telling our story and the New Zealand launch of the book Children of Harvey Milk on how LGBT Q politicians [00:06:30] change the world. And I do just want to say that, um and no disrespect to those who were involved with the previous incarnation of the Rainbow Room. Um, but I do think it's fair to say that while it's been great to have it here, it was really dreary and depressing um, rather than inspiring, and I don't think it reflected our fabulousness. So it's nice to see that it finally, I think, will go some way to [00:07:00] reflecting the fabulousness of our community. So I'd also want to just note that last year, Parliament unanimously supported legislation to enable the expungement of homosexual convictions, and the government issued an apology for effectively ruining the lives of those men and many people around them. That, for me, was an acknowledgement that decisions made in this place [00:07:30] have caused enduring harm to rainbow communities. We know that we haven't eliminated yet all the attitudes and policies that cause harm to our community. But it's great to take a moment to recognise the influence of our activists inside and outside of here, to help our democracy deliver for all [00:08:00] people. We have a much better chance of supporting everyone when our parliament reflects our diversity and when our communities can see the harmful history acknowledged and progress continuing, I hope Andrew's book in this room and documentary help inspire us on all recounts because we still have much [00:08:30] work to do. So thanks again to everyone here for all your work inside and outside of this place. It's always lovely. Thank you. So I'm a virgin at being an MC, believe it or not. So I'm slightly, uh, no, I'm not terrified. Actually, this is pretty fabulous. Looking at it, all of you. [00:09:00] Amazing people. It's now my great honour to ask one of our true champions, actually, and I want to knowledge, uh, the right honourable Trevor Mallard as being one of those Queer straight Alliance champions. His work in this area, uh, is unquestioned. And so it gives me great pleasure, Mr. Speaker to actually invite you to speak to us. [00:09:30] Um, I feel like I'm the third string welcome, uh, as as part of this and with an ever moving, um, thing in front of me. But I do want to, uh, in particular acknowledge your Excellencies from the diplomatic core. Our guests from throughout the Rainbow Rainbow community from a diverse range of organisations and people from government [00:10:00] um, special mention of Louisa and Jan Chris for the work that you've done, uh, leading this group, um, in, uh, in into grant. Um, I do want to, uh, also, um because I thought Marilyn was going to be here to acknowledge Marilynn wearing and the work that she did, period that she was hearing immediately afterwards. And I think especially in supporting a nervous young member from Hamilton. Uh, during [00:10:30] the mid 19 eighties, she was a example. And in tremendous report, um, I also want to acknowledge, uh, Cynthia Fran who Who did, uh, in that time and Ruth Dyson who voluntarily, uh, did, uh um there are, um, two, former [00:11:00] late members Vin Young and Catherine O'Regan, who, I think if we're talking about allies were allies, uh, in a time when it was just so much harder to do that sort of beside of me. Um, the room refurbishment has just not been a visual one. it's one of significance. It is brighter. And it is a sign of the diverse and inclusive parliament, [00:11:30] which is just so different from the Parliament that I was first a member of, um, I'm not sure if I'll pass on to Margaret Wilson, who has sent her apologies. In fact, Margaret is has been my support crew over the last week or so. Um um, Margaret, uh, dedicated the room in 2008. I won't pass on the fact that everyone thinks that it was, um, dreary. Um [00:12:00] uh, but it's good to get some of the legislation, uh, into the room, Uh, including in and just noting that the marriage equality bill, uh, has not, uh, had not passed at the time. If I seem slightly distracted now, it's because I've got really new hearing aids which run into my from my phone into my ear, and my phone is ringing and none of you can hear it, but it's really, really distracting. Um, but, you know, we've we've got a [00:12:30] lot of we've got a lot of progress that's been made over the over the decades since the room was opened. But we can continue to do more. We can strive to do better. And we can keep on honouring the people who shine leadership, uh, in the area. Um, our our society has changed, uh, and sort of slowly and often a bit behind society, sometimes a little bit ahead of society. Uh, our laws have changed, [00:13:00] too, and that's part of the role of members of Parliament. Um, we have artwork from Elizabeth, which is of special significance, and I'm sure people will enjoy. And I would like to, uh, add to the thanks to the team that put all of us especially so much, but especially the room together from the parliamentary service, the office of the clerk engagement team from the the whole parliamentary engagement team. We used to have [00:13:30] two. Now we have one special thanks to Jack O'Donnell, who has put an hours of work into the documentary the whole project team, the person who who's ringing me back now, uh, Darryl Lawson, Uh, who project managed the refurbishment and displays? Uh, Winton Homes, Uh, for, uh, coordinating, uh, with the parliamentary rainbow network, uh, into Luke Harris for working on the legislation on the walls. Um, so I do want to [00:14:00] pay tribute to people who have worked on this project since the beginning. Should be proud of the work. And I just hope the room can be a firm symbol for everyone. No matter who you are or who you love. This is your parliament. Your house. And it is your democracy. Thank you very much. So I just wanna add [00:14:30] thanks to Carmen Moran, Uh, and also to the wonderful rain in Jan's office. Ray when you've been absolutely outstanding in an acknowledgement of my E A Joel, uh, as well. So without further ado, this man's got other things on his mind, but his priority is being here tonight. He is our finance minister. He is one of our co master of our rainbow community. It is the honourable Grant Robertson. [00:15:00] I'm tempted to say I won't bother giving my speech because I'm sure it's already been leaked to the audience. But, um but given that I haven't actually written anything down, then, um, that that's not possible. Um, firstly, can I add my thanks to Louisa Jan Chris, the whole of the network? Uh, and [00:15:30] also, um, the speaker of the house. Um, this is actually a really cool place to do a function. I've never been to one in this atrium here, and it's a beautiful part of the building. So thank you, Trevor, for, uh, having us here today. Also add my acknowledgements to all of the dignitaries in the room, particularly the diplomatic corps, but also this the amazing array of of friendly faces that I see out in front of me. There are representatives of our community here in Wellington, particularly who I look at and I I miss, actually, [00:16:00] because I don't get to go to melan Scott's bar as often as I'd like to, Um um, I got in trouble for doing this at the parade, but I want to make a special reference to two of the activists who've already been referred to. And they've been activists throughout every piece of the legislation that's on the walls of the room. You'll see that, and that's Des Smith and John Joli who are right in the middle of the room there. Um, the the leg, the dear and John's legacy [00:16:30] in terms of activism in Wellington is just, uh, un unparalleled. Um, and I got the thing I got in trouble about Was was telling everybody. So I've done it in public, John. So I'm gonna do it again. Is to wish John um particularly a very happy 90th birthday for the other day. So well done, John. And I tell you what, John. If John if I'm rocking a pink sweater at 90 the way you are, then I'll be very, very happy indeed. Um, really What? I want [00:17:00] to do two things tonight. The first of those is to acknowledge, um, the past and I'm and the good news. I'm also going to do the present and the future. And so John and dear are part of all of those three. But But it is really important to take a moment at this time to think about the legacy that brought us to where we are today and the shoulders on whom the people on whose shoulders we stand. Um, because none of us would be here and be in that group of current crop of parliamentarians if it weren't for the people who [00:17:30] fought and struggled when things were much, much tougher than they are today. They're very tough for some people today, and it's still a real journey and a real struggle for people as they come to terms with themselves and their community. Um uh reacts to that. But that struggle over the past is just huge. And and Trevor has spoken. And, you know, I've just ducked into the Rainbow Room because I'm probably gonna have to leave early. So I snuck in to see what it looks like. It looks amazing, has really pulled out the budget on the light bulbs. I can tell you it's right in [00:18:00] there. Um, but But as I But as I stood in there, I did reflect on the fact that that, you know, we only come here on the shoulders of those who've gone before. And so there's several of the people in the room for whom I I give that to. But I just think all of us know and and it's already been mentioned the expungement legislation that we passed last year. And you know, any of the stories that that those of us who've worked with people who wanted their convictions expunge when you hear those stories you just realise, as Jan said, the devastating [00:18:30] effect, um, on people's lives. But then the fortitude and the courage that those people have showed are are coming forward from here. Um, and as I say, I think there's some fantastic photograph question there of most of the list of MP S that you read out. Melissa. Um, I reckon maybe we might create a little allies corner, Um, at some point. And, um, just a little one, you know, um, down there, because I think we do owe a lot. Also not only to our rainbow community, but also to our allies that have gone before [00:19:00] us as well. In terms of the present, I just really want to celebrate the the fact that we have this network, uh, that it is doing such good work and looking at the issues that are still unresolved. And I particularly want to make an an acknowledgment in that context to our trans. Um, we know that there is more to do. And as the world moves and evolves and rolls, we must make sure that as a parliament, we're there, um, walking alongside and leading where we possibly can and then also [00:19:30] to the future. I know that the youth wings of the political parties are here. Um, I hope, um, and I won't choose which people, but I hope that many of you will find a place for yourself here or in other elected offices over time, and that you'll be able to stand on the shoulders again of what has gone before Fran has arrived. Hello, Fran. Fran Wilde. Definitely head of the allies' corner. Um, so yeah, I really look and I'm hugely inspired by [00:20:00] the activism of the generations that are coming through and on all issues, but including on issues to do with the rainbow community. And so I really want to acknowledge all of you. So for me, this is an extremely proud day that this parliament, um, now has a room that is joyous and full of light. Uh, but also a place that acknowledges our legacy and where we want to go in the future. I do, however, want to talk a little bit about the book that we're also here, um, to celebrate today. The Children of Harvey Milk. Um, Andrew Reynolds' [00:20:30] book. Um, I have a story to tell Andrew about this book. Uh, at Christmas time, I was in San Francisco. Predictable holiday destination. Uh, and, um, my partner ALF got bored with me hanging out at the bookshop. And so he took off to go and have a look around Chinatown. And I was leafing through the books and I picked this up, and I genuinely didn't know that it had come out. I knew some work had been done on it, but I didn't know that it came out and I picked it up, and I did what all of you have to admit those [00:21:00] of you in public life do when you see a book like this. I went to the index and I looked at the index and I thought, Oh, you know, I've had nothing to do with this book. I'm not gonna be in here. And then I saw that I was and I said out loud, Oh, my God, I'm in here Now. You're in San Francisco, you're in the United States, and that means that whatever you say or do, everybody else is involved in. And so a woman who was standing a few, um, paces along went, Are you are you really in there? And so I showed her that I was. [00:21:30] And then we looked at the page where I was referred to, and we read that out. And then she got all these other people from behind the counter to come over and say and say he's in the book. He's in the book. Uh, it was It is and was a great moment to see that. But actually, it is a tremendous, uh, set of stories which are all very different in their own way about how LGBT Q politicians have changed the world, [00:22:00] the struggles that people have been through but the great things that we've done as well. And so Andrew and the team, I really want to acknowledge this book. I think it is a fantastic contribution. Harvey is one of my political heroes. I've quoted him in Parliament multiple times, and I want to finish with one of the things that actually is mentioned in the book that I did say that when the marriage equality bill, um, was went through II, I quoted the story of of Harvey Milk talking about the kid [00:22:30] from Altoona, Pennsylvania, who rings him up. Um, after he's been elected to just say thank you and what I want to do today. And and he carried on and said that what we've got to do is give people hope, because if you don't have hope, you don't have much else, and hope doesn't do everything. But hope does, um, fuel the engine of our movement, fuel the hopes of all of our people. So the dreams of all of our people. So on behalf of all of us, I hope I can say to [00:23:00] Andrew and the team this book fills me with hope and joy. Thank you very much for having published it in. So consider this a game of rugby. That's the first quarter. The second, uh, quarter is going to be the screening of this amazing documentary. Uh, but before I do that, I do want to acknowledge Tim Barnett. It was actually Tim's request, uh, to [00:23:30] the honourable Margaret Wilson for the Rainbow Room, Uh, that it came to be. And actually, I think the distinction between the room historically and today is that historically, we celebrated the community and we celebrated the pieces of legislation that we collectively work to get through. What you'll see going forward actually is a celebration of the actors involved in that, And Fran, being here is incredibly special. Uh, but the one thing I do want to highlight is that law reform [00:24:00] has only been possible because of cross party work. And I want to acknowledge how important it is that we've got representatives here from the National Party from the Green Party from, uh, New Zealand. First, anyone in the house there used to be historically some support there, obviously the Labour Party. But we can't do this unless we build coalitions across the house. And so the second part of this, for, uh, act, uh, is a screening of this wonderful documentary by Jack O'Donnell. And I welcome [00:24:30] people to come and get drinks down here. Uh, and after this, uh, we will then hear from Professor Andrew Reynolds before the Mr Speaker leads us through to the Rainbow Room. So whoever's got the button, let's play the documentary Ilda. Hello? Oh, everybody. Where's [00:25:00] Georgina? The diva? Where is she? You made me cry. Uh, can I just say that kind of typifies what tonight is all about? We've gone from this chronicle of legislation that we've, uh, had passed through the house to telling our stories in this amazing celebration. So we're up to the third quarter team, and it's my absolute pleasure now to introduce to you all, [00:25:30] Professor uh, Andy Reynolds, who is an absolute champion for our community. What he's done since 1976 is look at every single parliament in the world and correct me if I'm wrong. But there's been 396 of us, and of those 16 have come from our parliament. So this amazing man has chosen to dedicate his life to our celebration [00:26:00] and in that celebration to enable us to tell our story. So it's my absolute honour and privilege to introduce Andy. I'll let him introduce Peter and Sarah because they're pretty special people, too. Uh, but, uh, Andy, thank you so much for coming to a New Zealand to launch a book. And obviously, I'm incredibly proud to call you my my friend Andy Reynolds. Thank you. [00:26:30] Thank you so much, Louisa. Really. It's a joy and an honour to be here. I know you're all very keen to look at the Rainbow Room, so we'll only keep this third quarter to a few more minutes. Um, I'm really grateful to the speaker of the House to the Rainbow Network and all the out LGBT Q I MP S that we have with us today and all the out MP S that have been in New Zealand's parliamentary history. Um, [00:27:00] I am a British person. I live in America. I sat through your prime minister's question time today, so I know that politics can be an ugly sport. Politics is often brings out some of the worst behaviours of humanity, and we often underestimate and perhaps target politicians with behaviours that we see as the most [00:27:30] negative. But if you think about it, politics has the capacity to transform lives and in the gay rights in the LGBT Q field, we see that remarkable capacity of individuals through their own willpower, through their own strength, through their own tenacity, through their own courage to transform the lies. As Chris Carter said of Children up and down the country, the book in some ways seems like an academic [00:28:00] treatise on elections and government and legislation exceptionally tedious. But it's not about that at all. It's about love, and I don't want to over sentimentalise this, but I will. It's about big and small love, because politicians who are out LGBT Q representatives around the world generate empathy and respect and reservoirs of love [00:28:30] from their straight and CIS gendered colleagues and constituents and friends and families. The book tells stories, as Grant noted, of those queer politicians sitting next to the straight politician for years and years, and after a decade or so, the straight politician turns to their queer colleague and says, on marriage equality, I can't vote [00:29:00] against you anymore. You're my friend. I know your husband. I know your kids. This is ridiculous. I'm not going to vote against you because you are you. You are Daniel. You are Jasmine. You are my friend. And that is true throughout the world, in legislatures that have out politicians. And I also think LGBT Q politicians in New Zealand and elsewhere have this capacity for a nation to rethink who it is. [00:29:30] I've spent a lot of time in Ireland over the last few years. And certainly New Zealand is a replica of the Irish experience. Ireland has said to its queer Children We're sorry. Come home. That poor gay kid growing up on the west coast of Ireland who couldn't survive as a gay kid in Ireland, fled to Australia or New Zealand to become a doctor. And in 2016, [00:30:00] Ireland said, You can come home now. We're sorry and that love for your people, that love for your Children is a dramatic enhancement of the quality of everybody's lives. And that even stretches in the book to families, the nuclear family, the father who was unable to embrace his gay son until his member of Parliament came out as gay, and the father rethinks his preconceived notions. [00:30:30] It is a remarkable level of power that individual members of Parliament who identify as queer have over the recent history, and I think we sometimes get complacent. But we should never underestimate this visibility. The Talmon says that even in the dark, the smallest of lights can illuminate one member of Parliament [00:31:00] one councillor, one visible legitimate representative of the queer community illuminates a very dark place for that kid growing up in a rural area who is beaten and humiliated every day for his or her sexual orientation or gender identity. They're little points of light, and so that's why it's such an honour for me to be in this room with many of the LGBT politicians from New Zealand. [00:31:30] But I want to acknowledge three individuals that as an observer have meant a lot to me. Chris Carter, being the first out member of parliament in New Zealand, transformed the psychology of what it was to be a queer person in New Zealand again. Sometimes we underestimate the challenge of being first. There's no role model, there's no safety nets. All the weight [00:32:00] of the community is on your shoulders. You speak for every day everywhere. And I think Chris Carter, who sadly is not with us today, should be recognised for his remarkable contribution to transforming society in New Zealand. Secondly, my friend Louisa Wald, who I've had the great fortune of travelling around the world with and talking about the book and other wear issues. I'm an observer, [00:32:30] and like everybody else around the world, I watched that video of marriage, equality being passed and I. I watched the gallery break into the song, and I watched the joy of the nation saying, This is who we are and it wasn't just Louisa, but Louisa gathered that wellspring of decency and harness them. And to me, it's symbolic [00:33:00] of what a nation can become. And I think Louise's leadership is transformative, and people around the world almost cry when they meet her joy because of that moment and what she's done. And finally, I want to pay testament to Georgina Beyer outside of these boundaries outside of this coastland, there isn't a person I know who is not Trans or who is not gender non conforming or, uh, intersects. Who [00:33:30] doesn't look to Georgina Baer as the iconic Gandhi of the movement. I know that's how she sees herself. But being the first in the world again is a remarkable achievement, and her courage, her tenacity, her authenticity transforms hearts and minds. I don't want to be melodramatic, but we know that queer kids around the world, [00:34:00] in places that are less affirming than in New Zealand, struggle every day with anxiety, with depression, with suicidal thoughts. But we know that when they see somebody in legitimate positions of power around them, they are reassured. They feel validated. They feel worthy. They feel they can aspire to something in the future. So every queer out elected politician in the newspaper [00:34:30] on television is life affirming and to many millions of kids, that is life changing. And in many cases that is life saving. Because you see yourself as an authentic, real, legitimate person member of humanity and you see a pathway out of the difficulties. I've got the great fortune to travel with friends on this book tour, and we started in Australia [00:35:00] and then we came to New Zealand. We did Melbourne, Sydney, Auckland and now in the parliament in Wellington. I brought with me one of my friends from the United States, Sarah McBride, who's gonna very briefly speak to you in a second America, As you know, its state is telling trans people that they are invalid. States within the union are penalising and perniciously attacking [00:35:30] trans people. Sarah McBride was the first trans person in America to speak to a major party national convention in 2016, the convention that nominated Hillary Clinton. Sarah was the first trans person to work as an openly Trans person in the White House under President Obama. She has become the authentic voice of progress and change of decency in the trans movement [00:36:00] in America, and you will hear much more from her over the years. And after she speaks, we'll hear from Peter Tatchell. Many of you will know of Peter Tatchell. Peter Tatchell has been an advocate for human rights and queer rights for almost half a century, which is remarkable because he's only 32. That's a joke. Um, Peter came through one of the most homophobic [00:36:30] and pernicious attacks upon any gay person in a by election in Britain in 1983 and after that he dedicated himself to the extra political avenue of transforming our idea of where human rights should lie. He campaigns for the individual and the community. He is an equal opportunity advocate for any marginalised group, and he has done more than almost any other person [00:37:00] in the Western world that I know of to protect and save and enhance the beauty of every individual in the world. So it's a great pleasure for me to invite up Sarah McBride and Peter Tatchell, who will bring you greetings from their home countries. Thank you so much, Andy. Uh, good evening, everyone. Mr. Speaker, it's an honour to be with [00:37:30] you this evening. Americans aren't known for our self awareness, but I'm going to be self aware and try to keep this brief. Um, it is incredibly fitting that this new and improved Rainbow Room will be dedicated near the 50th anniversary of the Stonewall uprising in New York City because one of the many, many legacies of Stonewall is the power of an individual act to reverberate around the world. And at a time when LGBT [00:38:00] Q people find themselves under attack in far too many corners of the globe, including in my home country of the United States. The actions and the work here in the New Zealand Parliament have never been more important because for the last several decades you all have been at the forefront of the movement for the rights and dignity of LGBT Q people around the world, from marriage, equality to the globally historic election of Georgina Baer. You all have not just made change for people here in New [00:38:30] Zealand. You have set the bar and challenged the world to live up to our highest ideals and to be our best Selves. And so my hope, as we dedicate this Rainbow Room, is that the work and the words and the actions that fill it in the years to come will be work and actions that continue to challenge not just people in New Zealand to be better, but continue to challenge advocates and activists and politicians [00:39:00] and people around the globe to move equality and justice forward for LGBT Q people to continue to set that bar higher and higher to continue to challenge the world to continue to demonstrate through the power of your example, that equality must always win, and someday, years from now when? As we say in the United States, our understanding of we, the people, finally includes all of us. A young LGBTQ kid will grow [00:39:30] up here in Wellington or in Russia or in South America or in New York City, and never have to know what these moments of progress felt like to all of us, because they will never know anything different. And that will be because of advocates and activists and out politicians who dreamed of a different world. It will be because of everyday people who marched and fought for a better tomorrow. It will, because of allies who stood up or spoke out. It will be because of all of you. And so it is an honour to be with you [00:40:00] tonight. And it's a privilege to be with you in this fight. Thank you so much for your hospitals, hospitality and welcome welcoming us this evening. Thank you all. Well, it's great to be back in Wellington after an absence of 48 years. I came here in 1971 en route from Melbourne to London and stayed in the Wellington Y MC a [00:40:30] uh for those of you, perhaps don't know Y MC A stands for young men's Christian association. From my memory of the Wellington Y MC A. In those days, there were an awful lot of very handsome young men, but not much Christian association. I, too, want to pay tribute to out LGBT plus candidates and elected officials here in New Zealand [00:41:00] and around the world and the contribution they have made to transforming their societies. Um, not only in many cases, on gender and sexual minority issues, but many of these out LGBT politicians have also been champions of women's equality of indigenous and ethnic minority rights of environmental protection and the rights and social justice of working people. [00:41:30] They have been true. Change makers change makers for our communities, but change makers also for the wider society as well. In a month's time, we'll be celebrating the Stonewall uprising in New York in 1969. It was a fight back, the first major fight back against police harassment of our communities, and that was very important. [00:42:00] But perhaps the most important thing that came out of the Stonewall uprising was the formation of the Gay Liberation Front, first in New York and then other American cities and then cities across the world. And I was greatly privileged at the age of 19 to join the newly formed London Gay Liberation Front. All these movements had one or two things in common. First of all, they had an agenda [00:42:30] not just of LGBT plus rights, but of social transformation. They wanted equality but a new, higher level of equality, not mere conformity or a stimulation to what existed, but a vision of what society could be a new vision of equality that would benefit not just LGBT plus people, but also straight and cisgender people as well. And that movement also allied [00:43:00] with other social movements in the knowledge and understanding that united together we are stronger. So in London we worked with the Women's and Black Liberation Movement. We support the struggles of trade unions and working class people for social justice. Sometimes that support was not reciprocated. But we said whatever you fail to do to us, we will nevertheless support you. And in the end, those other social [00:43:30] movements came to understand that our movement was also important and they, too, eventually gave us solidarity. As we look forward to this historic stonewall, 50 celebration. I ask that we all renew that fight and that vision for a better society. In my own words don't accept society as it is dream of what society could be [00:44:00] and then help make it happen. Thank you so much. Well, team, we're in the last quarter and before we move through and we follow Mr Speaker, our Pied Piper, Uh, I just want to quote Harvey milk. All young people, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity, deserve a safe and supportive environment in which to achieve their [00:44:30] full potential. That's what it's all about. So, Mr Speaker, uh, wherever you are Yeah, we you know, you know, have this done. [00:45:00] You're all politicians. Get on this side. Yeah, the shortest one in front. Thank you. Alright. OK, come on, then. Come on. Come on, come on in. It gives me lots [00:45:30] of pleasure to declare the rainbow room reopened. Getting a bit serious. [00:46:00] Very good. Oh, should we bring the steps.

IRN: 2081
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/our_stonewall.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004568
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089862
TITLE: Our Stonewall
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Andrew Reynolds; Dana de Milo; Des Smith; Drew Hadwen; Elizabeth Kerekere; Gareth Watkins; Georgina Beyer; Hugh Young; Jan Logie; John Jolliff; Johnny Croskery; Kassie Hartendorp; Kevin Haunui; Peter Tatchell; Rev Dr Susan Jones; Richard Benge; Roger Smith; Sarah McBride; Will Hansen
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; AIDS Memorial Quilt; AIDS roadshow; Alison Laurie; Amanduh la Whore; Amazons Softball Club (Wellington); Andrew Reynolds; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland Pride Festival; Auckland Pride festival (2019); Australia; Beacons of Hope (Wellington); Bill Logan; Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Act 2021; Bruce Burnett; Candlelight Memorials; Carmen Rupe; Celia Wade-Brown; Chief of Defence Force; Chris Carter; Chrissy Witoko; Civil Union Act (2004); Coca-Cola Amatil New Zealand; Dana de Milo; Daniel Fielding; Des Smith; Destiny Church; Devotion (Wellington); Devotion Festival (Wellington); Devotion parade; Drew Hadwen; Elizabeth Kerekere; Family First NZ; Fletcher Building; Fran Wilde; Frank Lund; Gareth Farr; Gareth Watkins; Georgina Beyer; Grant Robertson; Hares and Hyenas (bookstore); Helen Houghton; Helen Kelly; Heterosexuals Unafraid of Gays (HUG); Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Hugh Young; Human Rights Act (1993); If I should die (book); Ihumatao; InsideOUT Kōaro; Intersex Trust Aotearoa New Zealand (ITANZ); Jan Logie; John Jolliff; Johnny Croskery; Julie Glamuzina; Justin Lester; Kevin Haunui; Lesbian and Gay Fair; Light Armoured Vehicle (NZDF); Louisa Wall; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Margaret Mayman; Mark Blumskey; Matariki; Maxine Wilkinson; Melbourne; Member of Parliament; Māori; NZAF Ā whina Centre; Neil Costelloe; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; New Zealand Council of Trade Unions (CTU); New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF); Ngahuia Te Awekotuku; Nik Dimopoulos; Out in the Park (Wellington); Parliament buildings; People with AIDS Collective; Peter Cuthbert; Peter Tatchell; Phil Parkinson; Pink washing; Pride Parade (Wellington); Pride parade; Pride parade (Auckland); Prostitution Reform Act (2003); Radio New Zealand National; Rainbow Crossing (Wellington); Rainbow Room; Rainbow Tick; Rainbow Wellington; Rainbow flag; Rally for Marriage Equality; Rev Dr Susan Jones; Richard Benge; Robert Gant; Roger Smith; Russell McVeagh; Sarah McBride; Shift hui; Shift hui (2019); Sister Paula Brettkelly; South Africa; Speak Up For Women NZ; St Andrew's on the Terrace; St Peter's church; Stonewall Inn; Stonewall riots (1969); Stuart Pearce; Tararua Tramping Club; The Queer Avengers (Wellington); Tim Barnett; Tom McLean; Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); Tīwhanawhana; Tīwhanawhana Trust; United Nations; United States of America; Very Rev John Murray; Wellington; Wellington International Pride Parade (WIPP); Will Hansen; World AIDS Day; actions; activism; activities; advocate; allies; anxiety; apartheid; bisexual; church; civil unions; depression; diversity; diversity and inclusion; flags; gay; homonormativity; homophobia; homosexual; homosexual law reform; hope; hui; human rights; indigenous peoples; institutional homophobia; institutional racism; marae; marriage equality; oppression; people of colour; police; police image work; politics; prison; prisoner double-bunking; prisoners; provocation defence; queer; rage; raids; rainbow capitalism; religion; rimming; state violence; suicide; takatāpui; trans; transgender; transgender activism; transphobia; transphobic violence; violence; youth
DATE: 29 June 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Tararua Tramping Club, 4 Moncrieff Street, Mount Victoria, Wellington
CONTEXT: 2019 marks the 50th anniversary of the Stonewall Uprising in New York City. The uprising, which began on 28 June 1969, is seen by many as a key moment in the birth of the Gay Liberation movement and the modern fight for LGBTI rainbow rights, particularly in the USA. In New Zealand the push for homosexual law reform and equality had begun years earlier.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: And welcome along to this, um, very special event held on the 50th anniversary of the Stonewall uprising in New York City. Um, the uprising, which began on the 28th of June 1969 is seen by many as a key moment in the birth of, uh, gay liberation movements and the modern fight for LGBTI rainbow rights, particularly in the US, but also, uh, around the world. In New Zealand, the push for homosexual law reform and equality [00:00:30] had actually had begun years earlier. And so this event, uh, which we've called, uh, our stone wall, uh, marks the uprising in New York City, but also acknowledges and focuses on our local LGBTI rainbow people and events that have shaped our communities. Uh, so first some introductions. Uh, my name is Gareth. I'm Roger. I'm well, and together we're Gareth. Roger. And will, um uh, so today's event is split into, [00:01:00] uh, three parts. It will go for about 90 minutes, and the first part will be roger and I, um, we're gonna dive into the Pride NZ audio Archive and pull out some audio and just give you some A a taste of, um, some Wellington history and some Wellington activities that have really shaped, um, our our cultures here, Um, obviously, we can't cover all our histories in 30 minutes over five decades. Um, and so we're we're drawing some representative stories out. Um, so So that will be for the [00:01:30] 1st 30 minutes. And then, um, will is going to be talking about, um what still needs to be done. Where where are we now and what still needs to be done. And then in the last part, um, it's it's over to you. If you'd like to comment or, um, share a story, you're more than welcome to come up and and and share it would be It would be great to to hear your voices. Uh, just to note, we are audio recording this for pride. And so it's it will go online as an audio document. If you don't want to be recorded when [00:02:00] you come up, Um just say I don't want to be recorded and we and we'll edit you out. Well, we see this event as part of a larger conversation inspired by the 50th anniversary of stonewall in New York, but also inspired locally by recent in January this year called Pride and Beyond the Led by Cassie, came about after divisions within our communities relating to various issues, including police, marching or [00:02:30] not in the Auckland Pride parade, Some of the take home messages from the with the importance of dialoguing face to face rather than through social media, creating safe spaces for differing opinions. Looking for things that bind us together rather than focusing on our differences and using whatever privilege you have to support others is a really significant group in Wellington. It's a group that welcomes people of diverse sexualities [00:03:00] and gender identity. It's been led by Elizabeth and Kevin, who's at the back there for almost two decades and has tirelessly surrounded and supported our LGBTI rainbow communities. And our presentation will keep coming back to a whole variety of groups that have surrounded communities or become focal points themselves. But let's, uh, start with a little bit about, uh, Stonewall uprising itself. Uh, the uprising was a series [00:03:30] of spontaneous violent demonstrations or riots, uh, by members of the Rainbow Communities in New York City. The uprising was sparked by a police raid in the early hours of Saturday. Uh, the 28th of June 1969 at the Stonewall Inn. Now, at that time, police raids on gay bars were quite common. So that would happen every couple of weeks. The Stonewall Inn had turned into a AAA, primarily gay establishment in 1966. When, um, uh, three members of the Mafia, [00:04:00] uh, purchased the inn, and, um, from that point, it was seen as a as a gay venue. At that time, it was the largest gay establishment in the US, and it was the only bar for gay men in New York City where they could dance together once a week. A police officer would collect envelopes of cash as a payoff. Um, as the Stonewall had no liquor licence. So there was a real, um, interesting relationship between the police and the bar itself. So why was an uprising half a world away? Um, so [00:04:30] significant to New Zealanders? Um, but also people around the globe. Well, to give you a brief explanation, here is Peter Tatchell, um, who was recently in Wellington at the relaunch of the Rainbow Room at Parliament. So the Rainbow Room here at Parliament is actually one of the select committee rooms, um, in Parliament buildings. So it's it's really worth a visit, uh, decorated with various rainbow flags. Well, various flags, um, photographs and artwork paying tribute to, um, our Rainbow Communities. Originally [00:05:00] from Australia, Peter Tatchell is a British human rights campaigner and was co-founder of the direct action group Outrage. It was a fight back, the first major fight back against police harassment of our communities, and that was very important. But perhaps the most important thing that came out of the Stonewall uprising was the formation of the Gay Liberation Front, first in New York and then other American cities and then cities [00:05:30] across the world. All these movements had one or two things in common. First of all, they had an agenda not just of LGBT plus rights, but of social transformation. They wanted equality, but a new, higher level of equality, not mere conformity or a stimulation to what existed, but a vision of what society could be a new vision of equality [00:06:00] that would benefit not just LGBT plus people, but also straight and cisgender people as well. And early deliberation Front flyer uh, from the late 19 sixties in the US read Do you think homosexuals are revolting? You bet your sweet ass we are. So also at the relaunch of the Rainbow Room here in Wellington, uh, was Sarah McBride. And in 2012, Sarah became the first openly transgender [00:06:30] woman to work in the White House in any capacity. It is incredibly fitting that this new and improved Rainbow room will be dedicated near the 50th anniversary of the Stonewall uprising in New York City. Because one of the many, many legacies of Stonewall is the power of an individual act to reverberate around the world. And at a time when LGBT Q people find themselves under attack [00:07:00] in far too many corners of the globe, including in my home country of the United States, the actions and the work here in the New Zealand Parliament have never been more important. Because for the last several decades, you all have been at the forefront of the movement for the rights and dignity of LGBT Q people around the world, from marriage equality to the globally historic election of Georgina Bayer. You all have not just made change for people here in New Zealand. You have set the bar and [00:07:30] challenged the world to live up to our highest ideals and to be our best Selves. So right from the early days of gay liberation street marches were used to create visibility and raise awareness. And, uh, street marches were happening here in New Zealand, too. From the very early days. There's a really wonderful bit of, um, television footage from 1974 from June 1974 showing a young man, um, with his elderly father in Coromandel. And, um, they're just about to march down the street and [00:08:00] he's gonna march solo in solidarity. And it's going to be his own march, which is really, um, really quite quite special. So what is pride? Very, very interesting question. Um, here is a member of Parliament, Jan Loy, describing what pride means to her. Uh, and this is taken from February 2018. Pride is a time of celebration and affirmation for people who identify as gay, lesbian, [00:08:30] bisexual, transgender, intersex, gender, fluid, gender, queer, pansexual, asexuals, queer and questioning. And while we have come a long way as a country [00:09:00] from when homosexuality and trans people were criminalised, we are still a long way from fully realising our human rights. For many of us, our moments of peace and our moments of celebration have been hard fought for So our celebrations, in fact are often acts of defiance as well as an expression of joy, and at times they are also all [00:09:30] too often an act of mourning. The Stonewall uprising influenced many in New Zealand, but it hasn't been the only international influence. In the 19 fifties and sixties, our communities were strongly influenced by what was happening in the United Kingdom. In 1967 2 years before Stonewall, around 100 and 50 people met at Wellington Central Library to endorse the formation of the Wolfenden Association, uh, and campaigned [00:10:00] for homosexual law reform. The group's name, uh, referenced Lord Wolfenden, who a decade earlier had chaired a committee in the United Kingdom that recommended homosexual behaviour between consenting adults in private, should no longer be a criminal offence. Our WOLFENDEN association soon changed its name to the New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society. They published a pamphlet that claimed that there were at least 40,000 homosexual men in New Zealand who [00:10:30] need understanding rather than persecution. Well, the, um, the seeds of the law Reform Society can be traced back right the way to 1963 when it as part of Wellington's Dorian Society. A legal subcommittee was formed to explore the possibility of law reform. Now the Dorian is New Zealand's first documented organisation, uh, for homosexual men. Although homosexuality was never mentioned in the club's official documents, there have also been other international influences, [00:11:00] too. In the mid 19 eighties, uh, spokespeople from the conservative religious right in the US were brought to New Zealand, uh, to try and stop homosexual law reform In 2004. Destiny, New Zealand brought over Martin Luther King Junior's, uh, daughter to oppose civil unions. Um, she told a meeting in Auckland that her father didn't take a bullet for same sex unions. And just recently, the international protest movement against police participating in pride events has influenced pride activities here in New Zealand, [00:11:30] particularly in Auckland, debates about police and correction staff marching, tore Auckland pride apart, resulting in a smaller but powerful grassroots march 1 person that took part in both the Auckland Hashtag our march and Wellington's International Pride Parade was MP Jan Logie, the greens Um we marched in the Auckland Pride march and I've got to say, despite [00:12:00] the tensions and the sadness I have around the, um, community dividing and imploding, it was beautiful. It was from my experience. It really felt like a difference of walking and being observed by others, um, to being in a massive community, taking over and I. I found it incredibly special. And I think there was a lot of complexity in that, um, the [00:12:30] tensions and the debate, and I really hope that we can bring the best of it all together, and and I know that's gonna be hard conversations a couple that supported police marching with Des Smith and John Jolliff, the first couple in New Zealand to be given a civil union licence. John turned 90 this year, and Des turned 80. Des was one of the founders of the Lesbian and Gay Fair in Wellington, the forerunner of the out [00:13:00] in the park. Here they are at the launch of this year's Pride Festival, going back 30 or so years, there were just 10 stores and a fair in Newtown school, a fair for a fair law, and it's come a long way thank goodness. Just remembering the very first fear and the battle. I had to hold it. A Newtown school hall. The headmaster said no. But there was a woman on the on part of the administration of the Newtown School, and she said [00:13:30] yes. Did you ever imagine that you would be able to walk down Courtney Place or on the waterfront and see Rainbow flags and go past the airport and see a huge big rainbow on the front? No. No, I didn't think I didn't even think about that. It was bad enough trying to get our flags and things around the Newtown. And I remember the taking the posters around to different shops to display and the flack I got from some of them. And so will you both be marching in this year's Pride parade? [00:14:00] We will, We will, definitely. Oh, yes. We'll be there. We did march on the first one. We got, uh, rotten tomato chucked at us. And I'm very, very happy to march with any policeman in uniform. I've got a police hat to wear in the parade and a new, uh, New York Police Department Jockstrap. So that's all you're wearing a jockstrap and a hand. Uh, no. No one wants to see an old guy like me. But what What? Good idea. [00:14:30] In their lifetimes, Dez and John have seen attitudes towards LGBTI brain that people will change dramatically. And so too has the late, uh, Donna de Milo, uh, saw a huge change in her lifetime. In an interview from 2012, Dana remembers how poorly transgender people were treated back in the 19 sixties and seventies. Quote Transgender people were the face of gayness because gay men could run and hide behind their male clothes. We were the ones who got picked on. [00:15:00] So Donna was born in Auckland in 1946. She ran away from home on Queen's birthday weekend when she was just 13. Uh, she moved to Wellington as a teenager in the 19 sixties, sleeping for the first two weeks in the toilets of the uh Wellington Railway station. She worked as a waitress at Carmen Rue La nightclub, as well as doing sex work. In 2012. Dana talked about how she and others were targeted by some in the police force. If you're different, [00:15:30] you don't go near a policeman because they're God unto themselves. You know, there's one here that used to arrest me nearly every night of the week, you know, take me to the cells and make me dress and undress for every person that worked there. And then to make it his business, I'd fall asleep to wait till the next lot came on, and he'd make me wake me up and make me do it all over again. And there was nothing I could do about it. No matter how I protested, there was nothing I could do about it. He was God. You couldn't if you they he'd [00:16:00] say, um, get in the car And I'd say, But I've done nothing wrong. He'd say, Get in the car. I'd say I've done nothing wrong. If you don't get in the car, I'll have you up for for hampering a policeman in his line of duty. So I get in the car and he'd make his drivers because he always you had underlings with them and they'd be the ones that he'd make. Arrest me, not him. And he'd make the guy speed off. And of course, we're talking sixties, you know, 63 456. And there was no seat belts, and he'd tear make him tear around at 80 miles [00:16:30] an hour around the streets. And I hated speed. And he he knew your Achilles' heels, you see, And he knew I hated speed. Unless I'm in charge of it and I can control it. And he'd be abusing me, calling me a shirt lifter, which I didn't even know what it meant. A poo pusher and calling me names. And does your mother know you're a fucking freak and you know, and you fuck ass and I, I don't do that sort of thing. You know, All this used to really upset me, and then he'd make him pull into an alleyway and turn on the lights. Of course, it's dark in there and I turn [00:17:00] on the inside light and you can see yourself in the in the window of the car and he'd push my face and and push it and push it and push it into the window until I said fuck off or pig or something. Go! Gotcha! In a recent sense, I arrested arrested, you know, that's what they called you. It the Amanda Lahore had previously recounted a story about the brutal beating of Dana in police custody and how Carmen Repe took Dana [00:17:30] back out onto Cuba Street dressed to the nines, and Carmen said to her, Don't look down. No matter the pain. No matter the tears don't look down. Carmen's legacy is still felt strongly here in Wellington. The rainbow crossing on Dixon Street was launched in tribute to her in October 2018. She appears on the pedestrian crossing lights in Cuba Street, and some of her most significant were gifted to papa after her death in 2011. Carmen's legacy [00:18:00] also lists brightly in the people who knew her. People like Georgina by Georgina said that one of the proudest moments as a member of Parliament was when she and MP S, Tim Barnett and Chris Carter welcomed Carmen back to Parliament in 2006 to meet the prime minister and the leader of the opposition. This happened during Carmen's trip back from Sydney for her 70th birthday. Her birthday celebrations were held at the boat shed by Frank Kitts Park. [00:18:30] Carmen was escorted by two muscle men who were her personal servants for the night, there was a guard of honour. The Australian High commissioner spoke. The mayor of Wellington presented her with the keys to the city. Former vice squad detectives presented her with the order of the pink policeman's hat. A real police helmet painted pink, complete with feathers. Well, uh, two people that, uh, regularly performed at Carmen's nightclub Laval were, uh, Johnny Cross and Tony [00:19:00] Roger. Uh, Johnny also used to take part in the devotion parades, Uh, with his dogs in the 19 nineties. Well, my pets. Yes, I I'm rather crazy. They're They're not really my pets. They're my Children. Um, they they're Maltese Maltese dogs. Absolutely divine. I would take them on the floats when I was doing the devotion parades in Wellington. Um, they always look glamorous. They always sat in well with the white fox fur because they look the [00:19:30] same as but they were alive, you see? Yes, they they're rather wonderful, but, um very, very gay looking dogs. They are? Yeah. Yeah. It seems as though as they pass on to their reward in heaven, I seem to be blessed or whatever you like to call it with more that arrive. I think word has got around that people who can't cope with them anymore, they know that there is somebody who can, and I seem to [00:20:00] collect them. Yeah, well, Johnny worked quietly and tirelessly as a volunteer with local HIV AIDS communities. He did one on one support but also could be seen regularly collecting on World Aids Day, often farewell. People with a signature have a gay day. The community response to New Zealand HIV AIDS ramped up in 1983 when Bruce Burnett, an early activist [00:20:30] and educator, returned to Auckland from San Francisco. So, uh, Bruce began a one-man tour of the country attempting to educate gay men on AIDS. Running parallel to Bruce's tour was the formation of the nationwide AIDS support Network. It was established by Bruce and other community members around the country and in Wellington by people like Bill Logan and Phil Parkinson. By 1985 the AIDS support network had gained government funding and had under undergone an organisational shift and so became the New Zealand AIDS [00:21:00] Foundation. A couple of years later, local journalist Tom McClean began documenting his life with HIV A. I DS in his book. If I should die. Tom noted that in New Zealand in the late 19 eighties, the life expectancy of a person with aid after their first bout of pneumonia was just nine months. Less than 10% of those those diagnosed with AIDS in New Zealand in 1990 were alive five years later. Well, here's, uh, Richard Binge talking about, [00:21:30] uh, what it was like in the late 19 eighties here in Wellington and also about the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt. So Richard worked at the New Zealand AIDS Foundation's Athena Centre and was one of the organisers for the beacons of Hope memorials, um, displays of the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt and also those devotion festivals and marches in the 19 nineties. We didn't know who was going to die next. We didn't know who was sick next. There was a very strong sense of urgency, [00:22:00] emergency guilt, shame, fear, shock, loss and grief. And what happens internationally is that when terrible things happen to people like when tragedy happens in communities, people get together. When there's [00:22:30] no cure, When there's no answers and there's nothing else to do, you hold on to one another, and it creates groupings and holdings and doings. And so when the first quilt was made, which Kevin referred to, was an expression of loss and grief. But above [00:23:00] all the need to remember that his lover ever lived, because if his body has been taken away and cremated within minutes, you have to have something to hold on to. So the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt was established by the people with AIDS Collective, uh, which actually started here in Wellington. And it was a Wellington and, uh, Daniel Fielding and [00:23:30] others who established that in the in the late 19 eighties. The first panel of the New Zealand quilt was made by Daniel for his partner, Peter, who died in 1988 Another Wellington who worked tirelessly in the area of HIV A I DS, uh was sister Paula Brett Kelly. Uh, in this audio clip, Drew Hadwin, who was also heavily involved in the devotion festivals and Beacon of Hope memorials in the 19 nineties remembers Sister Paula. [00:24:00] I remember the day I met her. I'd sort of seen her in the centre and thought, Oh, is it? You know, she seems a nice, older person, and she's always said hello, but I'd never had a proper interaction with her. And one day we'd, um, turn up for the condom packing. And there were none of the other a centre staff there. So she was on the phones, and I just about fell over. I heard this beautiful, smaller, older woman just say, Well, yes, dear, but I don't [00:24:30] think you were licking the toilet seat. Perhaps you were. And then she, you know, started to describe rimming. And I just stood with my mouth wide open going Wow. Um, I think the, um Wellington Rainbow Communities and particularly the centre and all of us were so lucky that she was one of our team because she had humour. But she also had a real knack of getting [00:25:00] people to come on board and getting people to do stuff. So Sister Paula reminds us of the importance of allies. Well, two churches that have been strong allies for rainbow communities in Wellington uh, Saint Peter's and Willis Street and Saint Andrews on the terrace. And this is a a lovely image from, uh, 2016. This is the glamour phones performing Gareth Fars During these days, Uh, a choral work written to mark the 30th [00:25:30] anniversary of homosexual law reform. In 1975 the very Reverend John Murray became minister at Saint Andrews and oversaw the church as a centre for social justice. And more recently, the Reverend Doctor, Margaret Maman was prominent in fighting for marriage equality. But just listen to how the Reverend Doctor Susan Jones opened a recent service at Saint Andrews. This is from last year, Good morning, and welcome to worship at Saint Andrews on the terrace. Our service [00:26:00] begins with the gathering words which are inside the front cover of the order in this place. All are welcome. The tall, the the shy and the out there in this place, all are accepted sis and trans gay, lesbian, straight and bisexual. In this place, all are loved simply because we are all [00:26:30] human beings in this place. All are honoured for the struggle between commemoration and celebration goes on for all of us all of the time. And just imagine, you know, if all churches were as as open as Saint Andrews, well, local rainbow communities have had other high profile allies. Allies, too, including many of the recent mayors of Wellington. [00:27:00] So we think of Justin Lester, Celia Wade Brown, Mark Plums and Fran Wilde. And, of course, Fran, as a member of Parliament, was instrumental in passing the homosexual law reform bill of introducing it into Parliament and then seeing it passed in the mid 19 eighties. And there was some lovely shots. This is, uh, Bill Logan, Fran and Alison Laurie, who, uh, were really prominent activists and really fought really hard for homosexual law reform. This was taken in 2011 and the the, um, in the midst of [00:27:30] telling, uh uh, homosexual law reform stories at there are some wonderful images. One of the hallmarks of homos sexual law reform in New Zealand was the way groups worked together for a common cause. Here's Elizabeth, who would later found I was part of a coalition then of political groups that would work really closely together. So Maori pakeha Pacific island with all sorts of different political viewpoints, and the real [00:28:00] value for me was that model that said, we always looked at how we had similar interests and how we could work together rather than concentrating on what was different and, uh, and made it difficult to work. And so what we would do is is each of us would identify what were the key needs in our particular areas and our particular interests. And then the other groups will come together to support what was happening around law reform [00:28:30] and basic human rights was something that affected all of us, no matter how we identified. And so I think still, to this day, that is how II I look at when I'm thinking around political action is always looking to how we connect, how we can work together, how we can support, uh, the issues that affect us in different ways and also recognise that people need their own space. People need to be able to meet as Maori only as women only as lesbian or [00:29:00] queer or as trans, uh, to have the space to a just the support. Just to be able to free to be, to be yourself, to be free to be yourself. But also, um, to get that clear headspace, you need to do your own thinking and planning. But then, for to be able to come out to your allies and say right, this is the focus for this and this is how we can move forward. And I think I still use that model today. That sounds sounds fantastic. It sounds very, um, sounds very constructive. [00:29:30] We got a lot of work done, I. I from a very young age of just thought my life activism isn't a thing I do in my spare time. It is my life and everything I do folds into that. As I like to say, What do we get up for in the morning, if not to change the world? There are many, uh, local LGBTI rainbow organisations that have been established and then dispersed over the over the many decades. Some, like heterosexuals unafraid of gays or hug uh, were formed around [00:30:00] homosexual law reform. Others like Gap, the Gay Association of Professionals, which is now called Rainbow Wellington, uh was about networking is about networking and social activities. The QUER Avengers formed earlier this decade after there was a A an increase in quob violence. Um, on the street, uh, the lesbian radio programme, which is now called quilted bananas, uh began as a way of community building in a time before social media and smartphones. Uh, we had sports teams like the Amazons and the Crazy [00:30:30] nights. And then there are newer support and advocacy agencies, uh, like gender minorities and inside out. And then there are also individuals that have done both small and large actions. So people like Marie Mitchell, um, Chris, Pauline Simmons, B Arthur and Betty Armstrong and from the early part of the 20th century, artists like, um, Robert Gant and the writer Katherine Mansfield. If we go back 30 years to the mid 19 eighties, uh, during homosexual law reform, [00:31:00] um, there were were many inspired, um, individual acts, for example, uh, activist Neil Costello having a passionate kiss on, uh, Lampton qua in the middle of rush hour traffic, um, or Julie and Maxine Wilkinson, who you'd see in this image here, um, sharing a passionate kiss during an anti law reform rally in Wellington Town Hall. And this made it to the, um, the paper the next day. Well, there have also been a number of other significant pieces of legislation that have had a real impact [00:31:30] on LGBTI Rainbow communities. The Human Rights Act outlawed discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, amongst other things. The civil Unions Act gave same sex and de facto couples, uh, the chance to be legally recognised. The Prostitution Reform Act, decriminalised sex work, affording sex workers the same rights and protections as any other worker. The historic convictions expungement legislation gave men and their families the opportunity to wipe convictions [00:32:00] for certain consensual homosexual activity. The provocation defence legislation was repealed, removing the gay panic defence from our legal system. And in 2012, Louisa Wall's marriage amendment legislation was introduced. Well, uh, this audio clip features, uh, voices of young activists. They were young back in 2012, um, fighting for marriage equality, Um, and it ends with the late Helen Kelly, uh, talking on the steps of Parliament. [00:32:30] My name is Brodie Packer, and I'm very, very for the bill. It's just, you know, a basic human equal, right? My name is Josh, and I think that it is an extremely necessary step to the future of properly cutting out homophobia. Hi, my name is Cassie, and I am in support of the bill because I think that is one really important step in gaining fuller quality for people. I'm Yeah, and I think it's fantastic I'm a lesbian and I guess it kind of just makes sense, like in terms of not being discriminated against [00:33:00] for something that is not wrong or not in your control in any way. And I just I know I think it's just time. It's time for us to move forward. 68, 2468. Not this, thank you. And the CTU is so proud to be invited to speak to this very important rally on this historic and wonderful day in New Zealand's history. [00:33:30] This legislation is not only important for what it stands for the equality and the fairness that it brings, but it's also a chance for us to send a message, a message to New Zealand young people that actually what is important. What is worth standing up for is love is friendship is equality and is fairness. That's what's contained in this. And if more laws were based based on those principles, this country would be a better place. [00:34:00] I recently, uh, went to hear a speaker from the South African apartheid movement. He was talking about the wonderful contribution New Zealand has made to end that terrible system so far away when apartheid was oppressing millions and millions of black people, people there. The thing that struck me, as he described that system, was he said, the law, the law of the country told us where we could eat what buses we could catch, what schools we went to. My God. [00:34:30] It even said who we could love and who we could marry. And he thanked this country for bringing an end to that sort of discrim discrimination there. And today, this parliament a time to celebrate this parliament, it will bring an end to the discrimination here. So on those same steps and the steps of Parliament in 2004, uh, MP, Georgina Baer was confronting members of Destiny Church over whether we should have [00:35:00] civil unions in New Zealand in New Zealand or not. And I'm happy to stare you in the eye. Why do you hate people like us? Be real Christians? I've known much more Christian charity from other people than what I've seen from you today. Well, I'm gonna come and look at each and every one of you. I don't mind [00:35:30] at all. Your hatred is totally intolerable. Why do you deny law abiding New Zealand citizens who happen to have a difference the same rights as yourself. How dare you use the cloak of Christianity when you are in to your Children? Prejudice, discrimination toward people like me, gays and lesbians and other people [00:36:00] who live differently. But abide the law and pay their taxes. Why do you do this to us? You're not going to win. You haven't. I have trust in New Zealanders that they will be fair minded as they always have been, because the democracy that I live in made it possible for somebody like me to be here in this place, serving the privilege of service to people in New Zealand. And you would deny me [00:36:30] rights. Why do you do that? Georgina Baer Georgina was born and raised in Wellington. In 1995 she was elected mayor of of the Carterton District, uh, the first transgender person in the world to hold a mayoralty. And then, in 1999 she moved from local government to becoming a member of Parliament, the first openly transgender member of parliament in the world. Among other things, Georgina fought for prostitution reform, [00:37:00] civil unions and gender gender identity legislation. More recently, she's travelled to the United Kingdom to speak at the Oxford Union. Well, we'll end, uh, this first presentation, with a clip from the author Andrew Reynolds, speaking in Wellington, talking about the influence of the LGBTI Rainbow politicians, including Georgina. That and the influence that they've had on the international landscape [00:37:30] outside of these boundaries. Outside of this coastland, there isn't a person I know who is not Trans or who's not gender non conforming or intersex. Who doesn't look to Georgina Baer as the iconic Gandhi of the movement. Being the first in the world again is a remarkable achievement, and her courage, her tenacity, her authenticity transforms hearts and minds. [00:38:00] I don't want to be melodramatic, but we know that queer kids around the world, in places that are less affirming than in New Zealand, struggle every day with anxiety, with depression, with suicidal thoughts. But we know that when they see somebody in legitimate positions of power around them, they are reassured. They feel validated. They feel worthy. They feel they can aspire to something in [00:38:30] the future. So every queer out elected politician in the newspaper on television is life affirming and to many millions of kids. That is life changing. And in many cases, that is life saving. Because you see yourself as an authentic, real, legitimate person member of humanity, and you see a pathway out of the difficulties. [00:39:00] Andrew Reynolds talking at the launch of his book, The Children of Harvey Milk. Uh, the book looked at rainbow politicians internationally, including many New Zealand ones. Um, and their influence. Well, hopefully this first presentation has given you a bit of a taster of some of the amazing, um, people and events that have happened within New Zealand and within specifically in Wellington. Um, and we would love to, um, hear your views. Um, after will's presentation, there will be a chance for you to comment and and share. [00:39:30] Um, and we'd love to to kind of hear your, um, ideas as well. Um, but for now, uh, we're gonna do a very quick change of the power point and, uh, then introduce, uh, will. So thank you so much. Uh, from Roger and myself for that first presentation. Yeah. Hello, everyone. [00:40:00] Um, thank you all for coming. Uh, so we're all here today? Uh, because in New York, 50 years and one day ago, on June 28th, 1969 police raided the Stonewall Inn. This was a routine practise designed to intimidate the undesirables who frequented the bar. Um, at a time when police brutality against queer people was not only the norm but was an accepted and even celebrated part of of means of societal control by the heterosexual [00:40:30] majority, the scene of police violence. The rating of the bar itself was all very normal for 1969 but as we know it was what happened next. That wasn't as the cops were forcing people into police vans, the patrons that were hanging around outside of the bar began to throw pocket change at the arresting officers. Before too long, spare change was followed by bottles and then by bricks. A crowd of angry queer people had gathered, and with the majority [00:41:00] of the patrons now outside of the bar, they were able to force the police to retreat back into the Stonewall Inn. A tactical team eventually had to be called in to rescue the police squad. The street battle continued for another two nights and a blast of radical collectivity, trans and gender nonconforming people. Queers of colour. Butchers, drag queens, hair fairies, homeless street youth, sex workers and others took up arms and fought back against the generations of [00:41:30] oppression that they had been forced to survive. 50 years later, on May 12th, 2019, police raided a queer bookshop by day, bar by night named Hiss and hyenas in Melbourne. At no stage did I. Did they identify themselves as the police. They stormed into the apartment above the shop where the owners were sleeping, shining torches in their faces and making it impossible for the owners to identify [00:42:00] the intruders panicked. Nick Demopoulos, one of the bar's co-owner, fled and was fled, Uh, thinking that he was, uh, thinking that it was an anti gay home invasion, and he was subsequently arrested on the street to quote the bars. Other co-owner speaking on Demopoulos path. He said he could only see boots and rifles and was assuming he was going to be bashed or shot. He said he thought he was about to be killed. He sustained major bruising on his [00:42:30] head. His arm was torn from its socket by the police and shattered in several places and and he has since lost full use of it. The police had mistakenly I had mistakenly identified Demopoulos as a suspect in a home invasion and Carjacking case. They apologised for the incident, but denied claims that they had failed to identify themselves, arguing that the incident was recorded. No such recording has been since been made available. [00:43:00] So here we have two cases of unwarranted administrative surveillance, brutal force and trauma at the hands of the police 50 years apart. What has changed in my opinion? Most significantly, the reaction to it the ways that anti queer violence at the hands of the police is popularly understood has changed dramatically between stonewall and now, despite the fact that I would argue that a lot of the violence itself hasn't [00:43:30] in the case of his and hyenas, they go fund me, raised $12,000. The local queer community expressed an outpouring of support and they gained some coverage in international media. However, there was certainly no mass collective rage, no response calling to fight back, and the story never made the front pages, nor was there much of an attempt to understand the raid in the broader context of the systematic violence that queer people do still face under the relentless [00:44:00] force of the prison industrial complex. You might be critical that I've chosen to speak about two events that both happened overseas. You might argue that the police are not like that here. Certainly, I think it's important not to make generalisations or universal organisations when it comes to history. And anyone who knows me know that I can complain endlessly about the aist historical trend that americanizes so much of queer history. But the very fact that you're all here today for an event [00:44:30] titled Our Stonewall shows we often find solidarity internationally because we share the same sites of trauma, pain and oppression. So why did we riot in 1969 but not in 2019? That requires a very complex answer, but I think that a large part of it has to do with the lengths that the police force have gone to use a queer narrative of history. For their own ends, the police engage [00:45:00] in what is known as image work, which is defined by academic Emma K Russell as the activities the police force engage in to project positive meanings of policing in order to counteract the negative press resulting from police. Abuse of power and excessive use of force. Police involvement and pride is part of this image work. The visibility of police at pride not only reinforces the idea that police are welcoming and inclusive, but it also contributes to the normalisation [00:45:30] of queerness as something that can be continually policed and regulated. Police participation and pride today is positioned in opposition to past practises like that at Stonewall and thereby constructed as being, in contrast, more modern, adaptive and tolerant. Yes, police may have been like that in the past. They may have once been violent, but they've come so far and they're just not like that anymore. Homophobia and transphobia is constructed [00:46:00] as a memory of unresolved pain for queer people, a memory that threatens the possibility of building positive police rainbow relations. The onus is placed on queer people to put these violences behind us so that we can move forward. The task becomes to get over it as though when you're over it, it is gone. But you can't get over what is still happening. Some queer people are more likely [00:46:30] than others to be the target of continued violence. Those people are most often of colour and trans. By their own admission, the police have work to do. The police continue to use disproportionate levels of physical force against Maori. As of 2017, Maori are 7. 7 times more likely than to be victims of police brutality. Additionally, controversial double bunking prison policies introduced in 2010 have put transgender inmates at higher risks [00:47:00] of assault despite arguing that they are actively trying to improve rainbow relations. In 2016, the police decided to drop their compulsory sexual orientation and gender identity training for staff. And in 2018, when asked by the Auckland Pride Board not to wear uniforms as a gesture of solidarity towards those for whom the uniform represented violence and trauma, they refused and dropped out of the parade. And yet in Wellington [00:47:30] they marched as an organisation in uniform and in marching. The police asserted themselves as queer allies, but the statistics and the lived experiences simply don't back this up. This kind of image work was also really clear with regards to the inclusion of the defence force in Wellington Pride, who had also pulled out of Auckland pride earlier in the year. It was the first time that a chief of the New Zealand defence force had marched in a pride parade in New [00:48:00] Zealand and it's one of the few times that it's ever happened globally. The defence force was celebrating 25 years since they began allowing openly homosexual men and women to join the forces in 1994. Many people worked really hard to achieve that milestone. There are plenty of caring, well meaning queer people who enjoy their jobs in institutions such as these which have an anti queer history and believe that the best course of action is to try and initiate change from within. [00:48:30] In many cases they've put a lot on the line to nudge their organisations along the path to acceptance and I'll never understand the weight of that sacrifice. I'm not at all trying to knock those people. Squadron leader Stu Pearce commented that knowing we have the support from the very top is encouraging and empowering and sets the tone for an organisation that values all of its people no matter what point of difference might exist, and that's his perspective. And frankly, [00:49:00] I can understand how wonderful it does feel to feel that you are working in a place that accepts you for who you are. But that is only one perspective. When the Auckland Pride board made the decision to ban police uniforms, not the people under the uniforms themselves, they did so because they recognised that we need to balance these various perspectives and needs of our community. It was a compromise that was made after extensive community consultation that involved police [00:49:30] representatives, because the Pride Board recognised that all of us who are queer have a right to celebrate our pride in an environment where they feel safe. They determined that the inclusion of uniformed police officers meant ignoring the safety of some of our most marginalised community members Maori, Pacifica and Trans people. Most especially banning uniforms was meant as a sign of solidarity, recognising that not everyone has had the same positive experiences [00:50:00] with the police because it's what the uniforms represent that matters. It's what the tank represents that matters. One attendee at Wellington Pride expressed on Facebook their feelings of profound distress and anxiety when the tank came rolling down the street, having grown up in a family that had been victims of war overseas and recognising the tank only as a symbol of death, destruction and power. No matter how many rainbow flags you put on it, a tank will have always [00:50:30] been designed as something that was intended to kill people. Corporate involvement and pride is also of concern Among such business. Fletcher's construction We're also at the Wellington parade. Meanwhile, their coworkers continued to plan the government approved development of housing near the protected Stone Fields Reserve at I, having recently cut off power to those who have lived there for the past three years. In protest of this continued act of colonial [00:51:00] violence, the government and Fletchers have both been criticised by the UN for failing to uphold treaty obligations and contravening the UN Declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples. Not only this, but Fletcher and other corporations like Coca Cola, Russell, McVeigh, Vodafone, Westpac and Skycity have recently been scrutinised for their use of the rainbow tech as nothing more than a marketing scheme and mask behind which severe homophobic and transphobic bullying [00:51:30] occurs. An RNZ article published in May detailed severe cases of homophobia and transphobia at these businesses to the detriment of queer workers, mental health and safety. Several workers interviewed from these businesses had been bullied so badly it drove them to contemplate suicide. One employee at Russell McVeigh described the Rainbow Tech as a farce, arguing that having a rainbow friendly workplace is not about having some workshops [00:52:00] with a few staff once, but rather it's an ongoing thing. It is worth noting that all of these rainbow tech accredited organisations dropped out of Auckland pride following the board's decision to ban police uniforms. I feel that this is a clear indicator of where their loyalties lie. This is known as pink washing, the process whereby corporations, state institutions and even whole countries seek to improve their public image by presenting [00:52:30] themselves as queer friendly without actually implementing any meaningful change. It is part of a larger problem known as Homo Norma. The approach to queer rights that, to quote queer theorist Lisa Duggan, does not contest dominant heteronormative assumptions and institutions but upholds and sustains them. While promising the possibility of a demobilised gay constituency and a privatised, depoliticized gay culture [00:53:00] anchored in domesticity and consumption What this means is that as more rights for queer people are gained and there is more straight acceptance of them, the challenge becomes. How do we maintain Queerness's essential queerness? How do we ensure that the activist roots of pride aren't assimilated into a globalised, homogenous, straight dominated, consumer driven culture? While the straight majority now accepts queer people, there is an implicit [00:53:30] assumption that we will act in acceptable ways as defined by them those of us who continue not to do so, particularly trans people and most especially trans people of colour, whether or not by choice are then those who are most continually placed in danger, critiquing rainbow capitalism and all the rainbow flags around town that it produces can be really difficult because who doesn't want to see rainbow flags everywhere? I only came out five [00:54:00] years ago, and I can hardly imagine how I would have felt when I was 17, frightened beyond words with parents, hardly speaking to me. Seeing all of these shops flying rainbow flags, it would have made me feel seen. Sometimes it still does, and it makes so many others feel so happy, and our ancestors, the Queer Generations before me fought so hard for us. Lives were lost for us. People fought tooth and nail for me. And because of that, I am able to enjoy [00:54:30] the wonder of walking through a city decked out in rainbow flags celebrating the thing about myself, which before now was openly shunned and hated by society. And it is so hard to understand how to create a meaningful dialogue about that progress, one that appreciates fully what our elders have done for us while still giving us the space to critique what work yet still needs to be done. I think that part of the problem is that I will never, ever be able to truly [00:55:00] fully appreciate what my queer elders have done for me because I was never there. I was never there, and I can study it and study it as much as I like. I'm obsessed with it. I'm obsessed with queer history. I'm obsessed with understanding, trying to understand what my queer elders have done for my generation and how what I can do for them. And I've been chasing this intergenerational connection and community, and I still will never be able to truly understand the sacrifices [00:55:30] that were made and what it really meant to be there. So all I can do is speak to my own experiences. I consider myself lucky because although I am Trans, I am white and I am red as male and that does mean that I have certain privileges. Compared to my trans siblings, I am not often made to feel uncomfortable or unsafe. I was lured to Wellington on the promise that it was a queer city [00:56:00] and that I would feel at home here. When Wellington City Council announced their plans for a rainbow crossing on Cuba Street, I was really excited. I thought it was gonna be a great way to pay homage to Wellington's queer history. And I was pleased at the opening to hear Grant Robertson talk not only about Carmen but also to and highlight the leadership of trans women of colour in our communities and in our history. But it wasn't long before the crossing was covered in black skid [00:56:30] marks, and this crossing, which was designed to make people like me feel happy and safe, very quickly became for me just another reminder of how much people can hate me. I see it, and I see the aggressive skid marks on it, and I remember all of the times that people have yelled slurs at me from cars. I remember how terrified I felt when a transphobic ex coworker threatens me from across the road. I remember my friend [00:57:00] showing me the broken glass on the street outside of their flat, where men had thrown bottles at them the night before because they couldn't tell if they were a boy or a girl. I remember the smile on the face of the man who wouldn't stop beating me, and how he and his friends laughed with each other while their boots crushed into my back. The crossing has just become for me, another site of anti queer violence, another reminder of how much people hate us. [00:57:30] Antique violence still happens, but we are no longer allowed to call for change. We are only allowed to celebrate diversity. We are told to be patient, to bring people with us, and that this is about finding the middle ground, that the police and the Corporates are trying, that they'll stop trying if we exclude them that they have a right to march with their logos too. But this language of balancing competing rights ignores the fact that there are people who are actively campaigning [00:58:00] in New Zealand to remove preexisting rights for trans and queer people. It ignores the fact that the issue of anti queer violence still exists and it is life threatening. We're told we've come so far. If we push any further, we'll push people away. But we are not given access to resources or to education. We are given representation. We are sold a product, the illusion of equality. And it is ultimately empty. [00:58:30] Absolutely in so many ways, US queer millennials have never had it so good. We are the generation who will see HIV eradicated. We have to worry far less about getting beaten up just for walking down the street. We've gained visibility and we have the opportunity to even have conversations similar to this one on the front pages of our national media, and we owe it all to the generations that have come for us. But our fight is not over. [00:59:00] It looks in many ways very different in 2019 than it did in 1969 or 1986 But the point is is that it is still raging. To suggest that queer millennials don't face brutalities or dangers at all is simply preposterous. In particular, I really want to highlight today that there is still a global epidemic of violence against trans people and most especially against trans women of colour. [00:59:30] In a there is a movement to criminalise and dehumanise our existence. This primarily takes two strands. In one camp, we have the classic right wing extremist movement, spearheaded traditionally by the likes of fundamentalist groups like Family First and Destiny Church. But now, complemented by the efforts of neo Nazis such as the Dominion movement, the Second Strand is in some ways more nefarious as they come from our own community. They are known as trans exclusionary radical feminists, [01:00:00] named as such because they exclude trans women trans people from their definition of feminism. They include groups like Speak Up for Women who advocate for a twisted feminism that argues that in imitating women, trans women are raping womankind and placing women and girls in danger. This is despite the fact that international and local research confirms time and time and again that transgender women experience far higher rates of [01:00:30] discrimination and violence than non transgender women. TFS are a small but vocal minority with a relatively powerful media presence. Member of Parliament Louisa Wall spoke at their last public event. Their current campaign is against the births, deaths, marriages, relationships, registration bill, which simply makes it easier for trans people to affirm and their legally and legally document our correct gender. They criticise this bill because [01:01:00] they believe that trans women are actually men. And that and that, uh, and allowing people to self determine their gender Biology will become meaningless and predatory men will be allowed to change their recorded gender willy nilly in order to prey on women and girls in bathrooms. I use the word believe because, despite claiming to be evidence based on their website, speak up for women, never actually ever, ever cite any evidence to back any of this up. Although trans exclusionary [01:01:30] radical feminists generally claim to be left wing, they are heavily supported by and work with traditionalist right wingers like family. First, their most recent vocal attack on us was by an affiliate of family first and registered secondary school teacher Helen Houghton, whose petition to stop transgender teaching in schools, was presented to Parliament in April and gained over 35,000 signatures. They claim that teaching Children about gender promotes gender discordant [01:02:00] behaviour and thereby interferes with nature. Most of the time, when I'm asked to give a speech, it's generally about queer history, and I go to great pains to tell happy stories since popular tellings of our history, so love to focus on only the tragic parts. This is one of the first times that I've ever been asked to speak about what I think about today, and I wanted to write something that was equally exciting. [01:02:30] And of course, there are loads of groups who are doing such important work that I could highlight gender minorities facing down. All of this overwhelming transphobia coming from every side intersex trust, a N fighting the so often unrecognised fight for intersex lives to, as Gareth and Roger said, really holding the community together and doing incredible advocacy work and bringing with them their most wonderful songs. Gareth and Roger themselves, who work tirelessly [01:03:00] to preserve the voices of our community and in doing so, enact a very powerful form of resistance, refusing to allow our voices to go unheard, undocumented and erased. Just earlier this year, I was privileged enough to go to inside Out Shift, and I was so inspired by the Ranga, aged 15 to 20 who were all so sweet and so lovely and clearly so comfortable in this queer safe space that the organisers and volunteers had so lovingly put together. They spoke so eloquently [01:03:30] of the issues that concern them, and I'm so excited to work alongside them in the near future. I don't mean to sound hopeless because I absolutely am not. But I felt that the most important thing that I could do today was to underscore the fact that we have not yet achieved liberation that is yet to come, and we owe it to our community members today to keep pushing forward. I want to return to a quote I had on the screen before I began talking. John Nestle, a lesbian [01:04:00] activist and historian from the United States, wrote. One of the lessons I have learned in trying to live with history is that for every repression we have found a suitable form of resistance. Our history is the chronicle of our vitality our passion, our cunning and at many times our integrity. We must now work out a way by which we can honour both the old and the new. We must look for connections rather than judgments. I hope in my reflections today [01:04:30] that I have honoured this commitment to speak without judgement. But instead, with a sense of urgency and with insistence on the on honouring the voices of both the old and the new, there is surely no better way to honour all of the work that the generations have come before mine and what they have achieved for our benefit than by continuing to fight for what is right. We fight today because they fought for us yesterday. The revolution our people deserve is not yet [01:05:00] concluded. Thank you for inviting me to speak today, Um, and for all of you for coming to listen. OK, well, I have so many thoughts going on in my head at the moment. It's gonna take me weeks to [01:05:30] to unpack that all. Um thank you will. So much. That was That was really thought provoking. I, um we really appreciate that. Thank you. Um, now is your opportunity. If you'd like to, uh, say a few words if you have any thoughts on, uh what what you've heard today, uh, any thoughts on where we're at? Um, please, you're more than welcome to come up and share. Um, just a reminder that, um, this is being recorded and will be put online. If you don't want to be recorded, just say so. And we'll edit it out later. But, [01:06:00] um, does anyone want to come up? Um, I just wanted to thank you guys. It was really amazing. Um, you got me crying. Um, I guess one thing that like I always want to hear more about is the place of, like, um, indigenous ideas about gender and sexuality and how they fit into our, um, narrative of liberation. [01:06:30] Um, I just don't know enough about it. Um, But what I do know from hearing people like is that things used to be real good before colonisation. Um, yeah, that's just my comment. Thank you, everyone, uh, just like to thank [01:07:00] you both for your presentations. Really thought provoking. And also it was it was great to look at some of the memories that were up on the screen. I think at this, Uh, I'm gonna change tech slightly in terms of my response today. It's, uh, the time of at the moment. And so it's one of those occasions where we not only remember the past, but we look to the future about our aspirations for [01:07:30] the societies that we want to live in. And I think these are some of the things that have come through today. Um, and I am so for me. Um, what means is that I have a, um I have a connection both to the LGBTI side of the community, and I have a connection to the the Maori side of the community. And so, for me, [01:08:00] um, is is about, um, realising that there are things missing in my life that are that have not come to fruition yet. So what that means is that on my Maori side, there are things that need to be addressed that makes it safe for me as to exist in this country and in the same way as a gay person. [01:08:30] There are things that need to be realised for me to feel safe in this community. And so, um, I wanted to, um just reflect that the, uh that the revolution is never complete because we could go through our different lives. And we have different aspirations at our different times during our lives. So that's why I think it will never be complete, because our aspirations will [01:09:00] always aim for higher things in our society. And I just wanted to reflect that back in response to the the um today from the perspective of of Indigenous, Yes. Perhaps there were times when things were were great, but I'm looking forward now in terms of how it should be going forward. So for me, I know that there are issues within our Maori culture that need to be addressed in terms of how safe is it to be who [01:09:30] we are on the really, and that's a big challenge, um, ahead of us, not quite sure how that's gonna go. But we all have our different voices. And we all have our different, um, lives. And I guess where we intersect is where we come together as a community to progress it. So I agree on some things at high levels and other other things. There are so many things going on. I think Well, [01:10:00] I'll just concentrate on the thing that I can can, um, make some influence on Thank you, Kevin. Anyone else like to you? I'll go on the record, but my thoughts are very much in flux. So if somebody plays us back to me to 50 years from now, I'll be long [01:10:30] dead. Um, first, um, just do remember how far we have come in nine. When the Homosexual Law Reform Society was founded, a Christchurch branch was formed and my mother was a foundation member. Please don't clap because [01:11:00] she was in denial about me and I was a mummy's boy. And so I was in denial about me for a very long time. But at that meeting, um, somebody asked rhetorically Now, say, here now, my mother always used to say, Always answer a rhetorical question. [01:11:30] Never answer an implied question like somebody's been another captain. Well, somebody asked rhetorically, you know, to indicate how bad things were, who here would stand up and say I am homosexual? And as my mother reported it to me, she said, And you know, some fool got up and said, I am [01:12:00] No, you don't that one full. Think of that one fool in 1967. Was it, uh, how brave they were, how unique they were, what a pioneer they were. God, I admire that fool. So that's the one thing now will. Thank you very much for your presentation that, you know, it really [01:12:30] tried to and half succeeded in shaking me out of my complacency. Because, as you may have seen on Facebook, I had strong reservations about that armoured vehicle. It wasn't actually a tank, it had wheels, and it didn't have a big gun on top. It was, uh, They call it an LAV, I think. But it had a tiny little rainbow flag on it. I thought what? And also this I sort of looked around This great big [01:13:00] thing was here, you know, it was like Martians have come. Um, but, you know, it took that to to shake me. But you've made the point that all this corporate branding, all this and, you know, the, um, commodification of gayness. And you know, all the issues you raised were very, um you know, pertinent [01:13:30] and be before you started. I was thinking What? What if the Pride Parades Pride Committee said OK, you can come in the parade, but you've got to have more diversity, more rainbows, more unicorns than you have branding. But what you've said, You know, as you said, it doesn't matter how many rainbows you have if the like. If the underlying thing isn't isn't good, if the if the rainbow tick doesn't mean a damn thing. [01:14:00] So thank you very much. And I You know, I Well, we've come a long way, and we've got a long way to go. Thank you. Thank you. Hugh. Is there anyone else who would like to say a word or two? No. All [01:14:30] right, then. Well, I think that draws our session this afternoon to a close. Um, I'd just like to before we close acknowledge those activists who have gone before us. Um, but who are no longer with us? Um, I'd like to thank those who've, um, spoken this afternoon. I'd like to thank will very much for his amazing, amazing talk. Um, I'd like to thank the taro tramping club for allowing us the use of the hall. Um, and most of all, I'd like to thank [01:15:00] you all for coming along, um, and joining us for this commemoration of our stone wall. Thanks very much. Yeah.

IRN: 2082
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/in_the_rainbow.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004569
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089863
TITLE: In the Rainbow
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Holly McMahon; Rose McMahon
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; FtM; Holly McMahon; In the Rainbow (tv series); London; Rainbow Crossing (Wellington); Rainbow flag; Rose McMahon; Scarlett Johansson; TVNZ (Television New Zealand); TVNZ OnDemand; United Kingdom; Wellington; World War 2; acting; arts; bisexual; coming of age; coming out; crying; documentary; envy; facebook. com; film; film making; friends; funding; gay; history; ice woman; internet; interviewing; lesbian; media; passion; queer; rainbows; representation; screen writing; siblings; social media; social networking; transgender; youth
DATE: 13 July 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Rainbow Crossing (Wellington), cnr Dixon and Cuba Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Rose McMahon (series creator) and Holly McMahon (writer) talk about the seven-part series In the Rainbow, produced for TVNZ OnDemand. The series tells seven coming-of-age stories of LGBTQ+ youth in New Zealand. You can view the series here.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So in the Rainbow, it's a series. It's a seven part TV and Z Man series, and it's all about LGBT youth. Um, but I've used each colour of the rainbow, um, to tint and also tied to the emotion of the story. So, for example, Episode one is red and the emotion is passion. Um, and then, like green is envy. So it kind of it ties over with the emotion of the story as well. Well, including the iconic rainbow flag. So where did the series idea come from? Um, it kind of came for a very long time of a lot of people [00:00:30] sharing their stories with me. Um, I've always wanted to make content that, um, very much shines a light on unrepresented topics and communities. Um and so it was kind of a lot of people came to me with stories and had shared things with me over the years. Just little anecdotes and that sort of stuff. Um, and I just thought it would be an amazing thing to take these true stories and show them to the rest of the country. So why was it important to make it now, um, I think Why is it not important to make it now? I think that even though it's 2019, the rainbow community [00:01:00] is still very underrepresented, especially on screen. Um, and I think that any time is important to make it so Why not now? How did you get into filmmaking? Um, I have always been incredibly passionate for, like, all of the arts. Um, and filmmaking kind of struck me when I think I was about 12. And I was on my first feature film set, and I was like, This is amazing. I want to do this forever. And so when I was 15, I started up my own film production company, um, and started making my own short films. So, yeah, [00:01:30] going from a short film to a seven part series is is quite a jump. Can you tell me about that process? Uh, yes. It was quite a jump for me. I kind of to to make sure I didn't just have a breakdown and freak out about it. Um, I thought about it as I I'm making seven short films. And that's how I kind of pictured it in my mind. Um, but it was amazing. And It was very terrifying working with such a big crew because a lot of the a lot of the crew members who were kind of assistants I hadn't met like other people had met them. And so I turned out on the first day and I was like, Oh, my God, there's so many people here. [00:02:00] I have to keep an eye on all of them. Um, so it was a little bit terrifying, but a really good experience as well. So so did the series actually start kind of development and production before you pitched it to TV NZ? Or is it kind of one of the things that happens at the same time? Um so it did. It was an idea. Well, before I pitched it to TV NZ. Um, but it was really good, because in the pitching process to TV NZ, I had to write a three page overview on basically why I thought it was important what it was going to be like and all that sort of thing, which was actually really good for me [00:02:30] to kind of take all these ideas that I had and kind of fine tune it into explaining it in three pages, so yeah, it was kind of it kind of ran parallel, but the idea was a lot earlier. So and what was the response from TV NZ? Um, it was amazing. I remember I got the email from them saying that I was in the top 10 in the country. Um, which meant that I still wasn't good. I hadn't been differently funded yet, but I got that, Got that. And they were really they were really amazing about it. A lot of people have asked me because so I'm only 18. And a lot of people have asked me how they responded to the fact that I was [00:03:00] 18 and I said that it's really interesting because it's actually people outside of the big networks that respond differently to my age. Whereas TV NZ were just really supportive, They were like, we can kind of We'll provide you anything you need to kind of make this happen. So they were really cool about it. And you say funding. Um, what kind of funding are we talking? So they pretty much, um, funded us to make it so they gave us certain segments of funding to then pay out the cast and crew and everything which was awesome for me because I've always worked on basically just asking people, please be in my [00:03:30] be it I was like, Please be in my short film I can't pay you anything, But please do it because because you love film. Um, so it was really cool to actually be able to give something to people for their time. You've talked briefly about, um, where some of the stories came from. I was just wondering, can you talk about the process of actually kind of writing these seven stories? Yeah. So the the the it's all inspired by true stories. And, um, a series of them came from people that I know who I actually sat down and interviewed, uh, which was really cool. And then also a lot of people anonymously submitted [00:04:00] stories. And so they did them over the Internet and just wrote down their story and then said, uh, which was a really cool way to get people who probably wouldn't want to have their name face attached to something to be able to share something so personal. And so from that I just went about basically looking at the stories that I had and kind of working them into a structure. And a lot of them are actually almost a true adaption of the story, so they're not even inspired by it's like a It's like a straight tour. Um, so yeah, and then kind of putting them together and writing what we have now because there isn't a lot [00:04:30] of kind of LGBTI rainbow content created in New Zealand in terms of like being on TV or whatever. Did you find? Find any, uh, pressure that to to kind of represent everybody? I did. And I did have a lot of people say to me afterwards, they were like, Oh, why did you not show this story or this story? And the thing was for me is I really wanted to add such cover the basics like cover just the kind of the everyday stories and just kind of all the main ones. And I'm like, Well, and in season two, I'll go way more into depth with all the other stories. [00:05:00] But for now, this is kind of what we have. Um, and I did. I've had amazing feedback from anyone from everyone. Um I don't know if I've actually heard a piece of negative feedback yet, which is really cool. So, yeah, can you talk a wee bit about the importance of local stories and local voices? Because so much in the media is international. Yeah, I think it's so important. And that's something big for me as well is all the stories are from New Zealanders, Um, and one of my cast members, um, he said that something he loved about it was knowing that this represented like it fully [00:05:30] 100% represented the queer experience of growing up in New Zealand. Um, and so I think it's really important because we do watch so much content that is from overseas. Um, and to be able to actually see something from people who like they're just they're just people in New Zealand. I think that's really cool. So, yeah, what was the story that affected you the most? Oh, I love them all. But whenever people ask me this, I always say, I always say Episode three. so that's it's a story. So it's yellow. Um, and it's a story about, um, [00:06:00] a young gay man who hasn't come out yet and he discovers when he's going through some of the stuff, he discovers some quite interesting information about his grandfather, Um, and the fact that actually he was gay back in the time of the war and again all inspired by true stories. And that one really touched me. Um, but that was like that one I always loved and I could never read or anything without crying. But then also the second episode, which is, um, it's a sibling based episode and having a sibling of my own, Um, that was and it's [00:06:30] like it's a sisterhood type thing. And so that one emotionally really kind of hit me as well. Yeah, thinking about, um uh, people in earlier times have you seen a lot of, um, early New Zealand queer film? Uh, yes, I have. I have seen some, um, again. There's kind of, like a lot more documentary based stuff. Um, but it was just around. A lot of people have said to me like, Did you take kind of something from that? But in a way, and a lot of people who write stuff, they're kind of like you almost want to distance yourself a little bit when you're writing from [00:07:00] the other content to make sure that you don't make it like that. If that makes sense, Um, but yeah, yeah, there's lots of there's lots of great content. Not enough, though just thinking about some of the the those earlier pieces those earlier films Can you compare, uh, their subject matter to your subject matter or the way that they filmed it to the way you film it Now? Um, so, like, I do think that it's like there are a lot of crossovers, something that was really big for me was that a lot of a lot of queer content that I've seen has either been very big on [00:07:30] kind of going into specifically. And that's what a lot of people have said to me like gay the gay stories. And so something that was really big for me was actually going into the full LGBT having all of those stories, Um, and also I feel like something for me was that I felt like a lot of them. They were they were great and they were, but they weren't very like, visually beautiful, which is why I really wanted to do the whole rainbow thing and make it something that you watch. And you're like, visually, this looks incredible. Um, and so that was really big for me. Just because I thought then people would really enjoy watching it. Because [00:08:00] people love people, love watching stuff that's aesthetically pleasing, don't they? Yeah. Do you see yourself in any of these stories or any of these experiences? Um, I think I can relate to quite a few of them. Um, but a lot of people have actually asked me whether I put anything of my experiences in it. Um, And in that I didn't I didn't want to because I almost wanted to have, uh I wanted to show everyone else I didn't want to make it a platform to be like, Oh, this is something about me. It's just like it's It's about the rest of New Zealand. [00:08:30] Um, but, yes, I can relate to a lot of the a lot of the scenarios. Yeah. How easy or difficult was it to find actors for the series? Um, I think that some of them were really easy to find. Um, some were harder. There were a few bits that I was extremely specific about. So, like, for example, Episode four has a trans girl in it. And I was like, We have to have a trans girl like we just have to I can't I can't do it any other way. It was It wasn't the time we were wasn't after the wasn't that long after the whole, um, What's the name? Scarlett Johansson thing went down and I was like, I cannot do [00:09:00] that. Um and also I really wanted to show that these are queer stories, but they're also played by queer actors. And so that was really big for me, but there were a few a few cast members that were very hard to find, but we found them. So So that's good. What do you want people to take away from from the series after seeing it? Um, I think there's two really big things that I think, uh, like, I really want people to take away from it. And that is for for the queer community to watch it and really see themselves represented on screen and kind of be able [00:09:30] to go. Oh, my gosh, First of all, like this happened to me and then people actually connecting over it. And I saw that very early on when we were going over scripts and people. Actually, they were reading something and they were like, Oh my God, this happened to me and someone else was like Oh my God, this happened to me too And so I think it's a really big connection with that and also for people who aren't in the queer community to really watch it and get a deeper understanding into a lot of the not first of all, like a lot of struggles that people go through. But also there's a lot of relation. Like a lot of people who have seen it have said to me, even [00:10:00] though they're straight, have kind of been like I can almost relate to this story And I think that that's something really big that I want people to take away from. It is, it's everything is just like it's just human emotion, like there's nothing kind of It's just it's just people and they're just dealing with the same problems and with with family and love and all that sort of thing. So, yeah, did anything surprise you during the production of the of the series. Um, what's what? Surprised me? Well, I did actually have. I love I love sharing this because there was this one little surprise that I had And, um and it was with one of my camera guys, [00:10:30] and he's a very I love. I love this camera guy. Um and but he's a very like he's a very serious person. Um, and he was. We were filming Episode Orange which episode two, And it was like, the fourth day or something, and I went over to check his camera, and I was like, Oh, I'll just stand here and watch it through your camera for a little bit And, um and as we were as we were filming it, he started getting like, I looked over and I was like, He's getting a little bit teary. I was like, Oh, my gosh, what's happening here? And I didn't want to say anything. Um, but then a few days later, we were reviewing [00:11:00] the footage. Um, and this story is about, um, a young as born a female who feels that she is a male, and, um and he was looking at it, and he was like Oh, this this story. I really loved it because my stepsister recently told us at Christmas that she actually wants to be our stepbrother. Um, and so for him, hitting that, like, really personal note and actually me seeing that on only the the first week of filming, that was really cool. And that did surprise me a lot for you. What has been the most kind of emotional [00:11:30] part of of this journey? Because I know that if you're looking at a story on film or writing it, you're reading it or seeing it over and over again in the editing process. What? What? At what point is it really emotional for you? Um, it was Everything is very emotional. The getting the true stories was probably one of the most emotional parts for me is actually reading these people's stories, and it really hit me like I think about one of the stories I got in while we were overseas. And I was standing in the middle of Oxford Street in London and I was just crying. I was like I was just like, Oh my God, this is so [00:12:00] like amazing. Um, but like every part is very emotional for me. Seeing the actors bring it to life, that always hits me very hard. It's kind of like seeing them relive something. Um, and also probably personally for me when it actually came out and actually, people seeing it. And the day it came out on TV NZ like my inbox just started flooding up on like my social media with people being like, Oh, my God. People didn't even know being like we've seen it, we love it like this sort of thing. And that was very unreal for me. Um, and also people [00:12:30] who are total strangers who recognise me and talk to me, Um, like, literally on my flight down here. Well, I had 22 girls were sitting next to me and one of them, like we would we were literally we'd just take it off and one of them lean over to me and she was like, This may sound really weird, but I knew that girl who made in the rainbow, and I was just like, Oh, my God, what is happening right now? Um and so that stuff for me is to kind of see the effects that it's having on the country is really cool, and that's very emotional. Tell me more about, um, the response you've had to the series. Uh, it's been it's been [00:13:00] really good. Like I said, I haven't I haven't heard anything bad, but I just wonder if any said, if everyone just hides it from me, they're just like, Don't look over here. Don't look over here. Um, but it's been really good. I've had lots of lots of positive feedback from both cast and crew. My friends just complete strangers. Um, I've literally so many people who have just come up to me and being like, Oh my God, Like every every night I'm in town in Auckland and there'll be someone who just grabs me, and they're like, Oh, hi, Rose And I'm like, I don't know who you are, and they just say to me, They're like, Oh, I've seen your series and it's amazing. So that's really cool. Um, and something [00:13:30] that's really cool for me as well as some of the stories are inspired by people that I know. And so those people, their response to it was super cool. And like, for example, one of the the episode Episode six the two girls that was inspired by people that we're very close to their family, friends of ours. Um, and one of them came to the screening and she said to me she was like, Oh my God, the actors even look like us. And so seeing stuff like that and hearing that sort of thing just makes me even more happy that I made it. So yeah, it's such a powerful thing when you actually see [00:14:00] yourself represented on screen. When was the first time you saw yourself represented on screen? Oh, I don't know if I've ever seen myself represented on screen. It's very hard. I feel like there's a lot of there's a lot of stuff out there, but and that's a that's a big thing for me as well. I don't know if I think that I watch media and I'm like, Oh, I can kind of I connect to this character. I connect to that character, but I don't know if I've ever seen someone exactly like me. I think I'm I think I'm a little bit too weird. I can see my sister chuckling at me being like you're a little bit too weird to be on screen. [00:14:30] Oh, OK. So apparently I'm the home alone kid. Um, so, yeah, I think I think that there's definitely there's definitely some movies that I watch. And the biggest thing that I relate to in media is when I see a very small, determined child and I'm like, That's me right there. Um, I remember we used to read the books. The event Were they the adventures of Sophie? What was her name? Sophie. And Mum was always like, This is exactly you. She's just determined and small. And I'm like, Yeah, that's true. So yeah. Now, Holly, uh, the sister, um, you were also part of the series. Yeah. [00:15:00] Uh, yes. I helped out with some of the back end writing work before the, um, scripts were submitted to TV NZ. How was that? It was very interesting. I am letting my writing go out into the world is always a struggle, but it was very cool to see the stories I wrote be on screen and being filmed. I went up for the filming of the last episodes that I wrote, and I cried every take and I got made fun of endlessly for that. But this was actually one of my favourite things [00:15:30] is my sister is a bit of because she can be a bit of an ice woman sometimes. And she was like, the whole day of filming. I was like it was during the day and I was like, Isn't it sweet? Isn't it sweet? And she's just And she was just Yeah, yeah, sure, sure. And then we got to the We were filming the last scene, and it's like, if you haven't seen it, the the end of the last episode is extremely emotional. Like, this is the play. Go watch it right now. Um, and we were filming it and I was moving with the camera and I sit back and I turned around and Holly was just their ball, her eyes out. And I was like, Yes, I've done it, I've got to the ice square. [00:16:00] So that was also a very good moment for me. So, Holly, why is it so emotional when you when you see your scripts coming to life like that? I guess because it's so uncommon to find media that you relate to, and I know that I am more than Rose. Put myself into the scripts that I write and seeing those stories. And, I don't know, it feels like I am. I created a happy ending, and it makes me feel like I can create happy endings in the real world. [00:16:30] It makes me happy. Yeah. I mean, what what was it important to have? Happy endings? Yes. I feel like so much of the queer media that's published either gets stuck in the tropes of the struggles of coming out. Or they end up with, uh, with unhappy endings. I got that feedback from a friend of mine who watched it, and she said that in, um, one of the episodes, she was convinced that something was gonna happen and it was going to, like, fall apart, and it was gonna be an unhappy ending, But she was really shocked when it was just wholesome and sweet at the end. And I feel [00:17:00] like I feel like there's a lot of tragedies in gay media, and there needs to be more happy endings, to be honest. Well, a happy ending that you kind of alluded to, uh, at the start was series two. Yes, Yes. So, I, I am very keen to make a season two of this. Um, in fact, I say that, in fact, scrap that scrap those words. I'm like, I'm making a season two of it with, like, so TV and Z. Yeah, but that's that's the one. So yes, I, I wanna make a season two. I've always want to make a season two. [00:17:30] I think it's something that really kind of it deserves more like, there's more. There's more to tell. And so I really want I really want to do that again. Yeah. Do you have any advice for, um up and coming? Uh, LGBTI Rainbow Filmmakers. Um, I would say, Just go do it. This is my This is my life. Advice for anyone is just get out there, make content, grab some people. Um, for me, I'm like when I made my first short film at 15, which again? My sister Holly wrote, um, And for me, whenever I watch it, I cringe because I'm [00:18:00] just like, there's so many bits that I did wrong. But I think that if you just get out there and make stuff, people will enjoy it and they'll watch it, and that's the only way of getting better is just by creating content for people to watch. Now we are standing at the Rainbow Crossing, and I wonder, can you talk to me just on a personal note? What does, um, visibility and being at a rainbow crossing and doing a Rainbow Series mean to you? Um, I think that, like I said, it's a very big visibility thing. I think that people in the queer community [00:18:30] really need to see themselves represented in the media. Um, and I think it can have a big effect on a lot of people who can be struggling. And I think that seeing open queer rainbow stuff is so important. Um, a lot of people said it at stuff like schools where people are encouraged like teachers to put on rainbow pins and then it makes it makes kids feel like I know this person is supportive and so I think seeing visually, um, Rainbow makes the younger generation be like there is. There is hope for change, like it's it's [00:19:00] coming, um, and so I think that's super important. I mean, Rose pretty much summed it up. I just think that it's it's so important to be able to see yourself. Media is such an important part of our society today, and to be able to see yourself represented in in an authentic way on screen is incredibly important because for so long, any portrayals of queer people in the media has been refined to the queer coding of villains or unhappy stories, and it's time for a change.

IRN: 2086
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/jan_logie_tours_the_rainbow_room.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004570
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089864
TITLE: Jan Logie tours the Rainbow Room
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Jan Logie
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2000s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asexual flag; Bisexual flag; Black, Asian and minority ethnic flag; Charles Chauvel; Chlöe Swarbrick; Chris Carter; Civil Union Act (2004); Claudette Hauiti; Criminal Records (Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences) Act 2018; Crown Law Office; Elizabeth Kerekere; Fran Wilde; Georgina Beyer; Grant Robertson; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Human Rights Act (1993); Intersex flag; Jan Logie; Kevin Hague; Kiritapu Allan; Louisa Wall; Mana Takatāpui (art work); Margaret Wilson; Marilyn Waring; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Maryan Street; Member of Parliament; New Zealand flag; Pansexual flag; Parliament buildings; Paul Foster-Bell; Rainbow Room; Rainbow flag; Relationships (Statutory References) Act 2005; Tim Barnett; Tino Rangatiratanga flag; Toss Woollaston; Transgender flag; Trevor Mallard; Tāmati Coffey; Wellington; allies; arts; bisexual; colonisation; community; cross political party working group; democracy; discrimination; diversity; documentary; flags; gay; homosexual law reform; hope; intersex; law; legislation; lesbian; marginalisation; marginalised communities; painting; relationships; takatāpui; trans; transgender
DATE: 21 August 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: MP Jan Logie tours the newly refurnished Rainbow Room at Parliament.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So I'm Jan Lo. I'm a green party, uh, MP and one of the co-chair of the cross party Rainbow Network here in our parliament. And we are standing right now in the Rainbow Room, which is one of the, uh, select committee rooms in Parliament that is themed to represent a community, Uh, that has potentially been marginalised and not, um, fully [00:00:30] recognised by our parliament. What is the history of the Rainbow Room? So it was, um, created in 2008 by the then speaker Margaret Wilson in recognition that, um, actually LGBT QA a plus. People in New Zealand had contributed a lot to the country and that there was value in them having a visible space in our parliament. Why do you think it's important? Well, [00:01:00] for me, I think two reasons one, an acknowledgement that the laws and that have been created in this place caused profound harm to huge numbers of people from our community. And I hope us having a visible presence here will help prevent that happening again. And I also think it's really important that when there is that kind of history [00:01:30] and, um when a community is marginalised and experiences discrimination in the population that parliament does what it can even in the small things like our spaces to, um, counter that discrimination and show that this parliament represents everyone. When [00:02:00] you say that there were laws that that weren't so good for LGBTI communities, what were those laws? Well, you know, the parliament created the laws that criminalised homosexuality as an example and pre colonisation. There was, um you know, there's evidence that we have of, um, communities embracing sexual and gender diversity and the colonial powers [00:02:30] and laws created by this place overturned that and, um, criminalised us in terms of, uh, creating a space within, um, Parliament itself. How easy, Or how hard was it to create a Rambo room? Well, actually, I wasn't around at the time. Um, that Margaret Ms. Wilson made that decision. I guess it's about having a speaker in the House who who gets the importance [00:03:00] of democracy and being inclusive. Um, and who's willing to take that leadership? And she did. And I, I think you know the result speaks for itself. Yeah, so it's just actually been relaunched a couple of months ago. Can you describe what it looked like prior to the relaunch And what it looks like now. Yeah, um well, you know, like a credit to the speaker for creating the room, but I've got to say it was a bit depressing. It [00:03:30] was, um It had kind of blue, green duck, eggshell kind of paint. And, um, some, you know, admirable artworks from people with, uh, like, toss Williston. You know, so But in those colours that were very, you know, you're kind of in bed rocking kind of mood to them. It it didn't evoke [00:04:00] or, um, the vibrancy of our communities to me anyway. And I found it a bit drag and depressing, to be honest. And so today, how does it look? Well, today is an absolute contrast where we've got really fresh white paint that just kind of sings of, um, kind of, you know, aliveness and freshness. And we have a selection of our beautiful flags, [00:04:30] um, here in the room and, uh, artwork by Elizabeth, uh, which is with the rainbow, um, colours on panels. And then there's the photos of, uh, out MP S, um, on the walls and, uh, pieces of the significant legislation. So it's really it's got the [00:05:00] colour that reflects our community, I think. Can you actually just go around and look at the photographs to begin with? And maybe if you could just name the people and also give me, um what was what was the criteria for actually being on the wall here? So the criteria was for somebody to have been in Parliament and to have been out and to want their picture on the wall. And so we have Marilyn, we who was, um, the first out MP, um, Ed, um, against her will, [00:05:30] actually in the community. Um, but had the public get behind her after that, which is a pretty, I think inspiring part of our history as a country makes me feel good about us. And then Chris Carter, uh, who was, um, elected in 93 and then Tim Barnett and Georgina ba obviously, uh, you know, thought of us. And she says, you know, the first out, Trans, um, gender member of a parliament [00:06:00] anywhere in the world. Um, which is I've got to say for me being, uh, one of those moments where I felt really great about our country. Um, and then Marion Street from 2005. And Charles 2006. And then Kevin Haig and Grant Robertson and Lesa Wall all came in in 2008. And was there anyone that, um, didn't want to be on the wall that you approached and they didn't want to be there? Um, [00:06:30] my understanding is that yes, there are. And obviously I'm not going to name them because they are choosing not to be, um, not wanting to be part of that history. Yeah, um, and then on this side, we've got me and then Paul Foster Bell, I then, um Claude, uh, and coffee and Tau Allen and Chloe Schrock and her adorable puppy. So [00:07:00] now, um, there are some absences here and I I think of, um, the the Allies over the years, people like Fran and Trevor Mallard. Why aren't they up? Well, I guess that's something that we could consider for, um, for another part of the room. I think the, um there is an importance to for me at least to acknowledge the out MP S because when particularly [00:07:30] you're kind of a young queer or a parent of a young one coming out and not knowing if the world's going to be OK for them to actually see that there are members of Parliament who are standing proudly and their sexuality or gender identity, I think gives hope. And so I think that in itself is really important. But I do think, um, you're right. Allies have played a really significant roles for us in [00:08:00] this place, and that would be good to acknowledge them On the, um I say back wall, I guess, um, you've got six pieces of legislation. Can you take me through? Uh, what those bits of legislation are and why they're significant. Um, so the first one is homosexual law reform, which, uh, was the decriminalisation of homosexuality. Um, and then, um and which was, I guess, the first piece of positive law reform as I understand it [00:08:30] in this country that, um, around restoring, uh, our access to rights to exist as we are. And next. Um, in that vein came the Human Rights Act, which was a protection, um, from discrimination, uh, and on the grounds of sexual orientation and also, um, include sex. And it's been great that the current Minister for [00:09:00] Justice has acknowledged the benefit of clarifying that this legislation and the Human Rights Act does protect, um, transgender people and non-binary people from discrimination as well. There'd been a crown law, um, opinion that the existing legislation does. But the way it's framed is less than ideal. And, um, and people don't feel that it does. [00:09:30] And that's really important that it's clear. And then the Civil Union Act in 2004, which was, um, I guess the precursor to marriage equality, uh, and set up the option for people to have civil partnerships. And, um, that and I still remember the conversations in the community at the time, and some of them being particularly amongst lesbians, really hated anti um, the [00:10:00] idea of kind of, you know, patriarchal, uh, relationship models. And yeah, so it's. But that was the start of a movement to, um, I guess, yeah, towards marriage. Equality. And then there's the, um, Relationship Statutory References Act of 2005, which I think was enabling people. It was ensuring that, um, property [00:10:30] relationship forms enabled it wasn't necessarily male husband, wife that it, um, enabled same sex relationships to be covered by those forms and then marriage, equality and then the expungement of convictions for historical homosexual offences, the most recent in 2018. And to have, um, homosexual law reform at one end. And then the expungement at the other is a kind of a nice book marking and quite remarkable [00:11:00] that all of these bits of legislation have happened in the last, What, 30 30 or so years? Absolutely. It's, you know, sometimes I reflect on the amount while I get really frustrated with the, you know, the things that we haven't done yet that just seem to me, um, just so frustrating. And I'm just like, Why can't we get on and just do it? This is not that hard, but to see actually how far we've come in 30 years. [00:11:30] It's, um you know, it's inspiring me to think of that. Well, maybe we can just keep moving and get it done. Now when we twirl around and we're looking at the front of the room now and we've got, uh, numerous, uh, flags. Why was it significant? Why is it important to have not just the rainbow flag, but all these other flags here? I guess we've had, um, the representation to us particularly, um, from some [00:12:00] younger members of the community, but not exclusively that for them, the rainbow flag doesn't resonate. And when they see it, they, um, that it represents more, um, gay and lesbian, Um and particularly for young, trans and intersex people, actually, um, have and bisexuals as well. I've heard most strongly from that. They, um they identify most strongly with their flags. And, um, [00:12:30] this idea of our community or being a kind of a coherent kind of single thing isn't quite right, right? Like, actually, which is the idea behind the rainbow flag is the differences. But, um, that we're stronger when the rainbow flag is there and other people can see their specific identity flags as well. Can you just take me through which flags we've got here? Sure. So we've got [00:13:00] the asexuals flag, then the intersex flag, and then the pansexual flag, the trans flag, the LGBT pride flag, New Zealand flag, the flag, and the black Asian and minority ethnic rainbow flag and the bisexual flag. And hanging right in the middle of the room is just an amazing, um, artwork by Elizabeth. Can you tell me about that? Yeah, it is. It's so vibrant and so beautiful. [00:13:30] So it is. Um, you've got two wooden panels on the side, and then they look like, um with those kind of rods that form the basis of a tuk tuk panel. Um, and almost it's got a kind of an arrow image to it, and then going across, uh, making the tuk tuk panels is a, um, a rainbow flag image. And it's just vibrant and beautiful. [00:14:00] And it was commissioned by Parliament, Um, after the passing of the marriage equality legislation. Yeah. Stunning. Can you tell me what it was like? Uh, being here on that relaunch of the room a couple of months ago, and you had all these, um, uh, rainbow elders here and former MP S. It was really beautiful. It was, um you know, like, the idea for me is that Parliament [00:14:30] should be a group of, um, people who represent our communities who are of our communities, not, you know, these people stuck in a separate world, and, um, and for people who have just spent so much of their lives, whether that be, by the decades of some of our elders, but also just in the proportion of their lives. For some of [00:15:00] our young ones, really just giving of themselves for our community and pushing for justice and equality, Um, to have them in here And, um, kind of, I guess I hope that it felt to them as if they really felt that, um, this space was a reflection of their contribution. [00:15:30] Like, that's what I hope because, um because that's what I want it to be and what it represents for me. And, um, and it was really beautiful and really special. One of the things we haven't mentioned was that there was a special documentary made for the room, which is about 30 minutes. Um, tell me about that. Um, yeah. So there's a fabulous little documentary making team here at Parliament now, and it's kind of a new thing. There's a really talented guy, Jack. [00:16:00] And so he made a documentary, Um, about, um, kind of, I guess some of the history around, uh, out MP S in parliament. And so the documentary is available on the parliamentary website now, but also, um, they can people can have it screened here if they come and have a visit to the room. Um, and it's really moving. I thought it's really well made. And some powerful [00:16:30] stories about moments in our history and some of the passing of the legislation. Yeah. Now you mentioned about visiting the room. How does one visit the Rainbow Room in Parliament? And what, What can be done here? Well, so this is a select committee room. So, um, which is where select committees consider pieces of legislation, um, and hear submissions from the public. So this room will be used at different times for all sorts of different pieces of legislation. [00:17:00] We use this for the expungement of the convictions for most of that hearing, but before it was done up, um, so probably nobody noticed it was a rainbow room. Um, but and also it can be I've lusa Wall and I have hosted an event here, Um, I think as part of one of the local pride festivals, where it was kind of an afternoon tea, Um, with, uh, I think it was kind of rainbow youth or inside [00:17:30] out kind of young ones, which was really lovely. Um, And people, if they want to come visit. They can either give the give me a call or give one of their local MP S a call and ask, um, to come and be shown around or call the, um tour desk at Parliament and, um, get them to arrange a viewing of the room.

IRN: 2090
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TITLE: Rainbow taonga at Te Papa (2019)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Stephanie Gibson
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; Alan Bracegirdle; All Blacks; Aotearoa New Zealand; Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Act 2021; Carmen Rupe; Collections Online (Te Papa); Drew Hadwen; Frank Lund; Gender Minorities Aotearoa (GMA); Getty Vocabularies; Grant Robertson; HIV / AIDS; Heterosexuals Unafraid of Gays (HUG); Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Hugh Young; Jimmy D; Johnny Croskery; Krazy Knights (Wellington rugby team); LGBT; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Library of Congress; Lindah Lepou; Lynette Townsend; Me Too movement; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; Norman Jones; Pink Shirt Day; Pride 101 (Te Papa, 2019); Rainbow Community Collections at Te Papa (document, 2018); Rainbow Heroes (Auckland rugby team); Rainbow Youth; Stephanie Gibson; Time's Up movement; Wellington; Wellington Pride Festival (2019); Will Hansen; activism; advocate; archives; arts; badges; binary; blogs; bullying; bullying prevention; classification; conflict; crown; digitisation; diversity; diversity and inclusion; embroidery; fa'afafine; fashion; gender; gender diverse; history; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; human rights; internet; intersectionality; intersex; language; museums; non-binary; photography; pink triangle (symbol); posters; privilege; pronouns; research; rugby; safe sex; safe space; sport; takatāpui; testosterone (T); thesaurus; transgender; transition; youth; zeitgeist
DATE: 28 August 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa, 55 Cable Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast curator Stephanie Gibson talks about rainbow taonga held in the Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Stephanie Gibson. I'm a curator of New Zealand histories and cultures. And in my team, we also have Pacific cultures. Curators. So we work together. Stephanie. It was just over three years ago that you and I and, uh, fellow curator Lynette Townsend, uh, were talking about rainbow, uh, LGBTI collections at te Papa. Three years has gone so fast. Um, I'm wondering, can you tell me what new acquisitions in terms of LGBTI Rainbow, Uh, [00:00:30] items you have now at Papa. In those three years, we've been collecting steadily since 2016. And, uh, we've been trying to collect as diversely as possible and with community, um, people. So, for example, we've met with, uh, gender minorities, and we are collecting their most recent sets of posters. So we've, uh, recently acquired their gender diversity posters that were seen in Wellington and all around New Zealand and city streets over the last year. And we're currently [00:01:00] in the process of collecting their, um, their BDMRR bill posters. What is the BDDMR? That's the births, deaths, marriages, relationships, registration, bill. So had Papa had a relationship with gender minorities? A before this, and if not, how did you? How did you develop that relationship? Well, I always take a very gentle approach. So I I began personally by just wandering along to see them and have [00:01:30] a chat and talk about all sorts of matters. And, uh then we became a bit more formal, and then two of us went and had a proper meeting, and, uh, we had a wonderful, another wonderful, um, conversation. And from there it's just grown. So, uh, we identified the posters around town as being really important sort of zeitgeist movement. They're very positive posters about gender diversity, about trans experience. And we felt that that was a real game changer out in public. [00:02:00] And we really wanted to document those posters. And then they they're doing wonderful work which continues on, and we want to keep collecting their work. I imagine you must have to be quite careful being a national institution and approaching um a a community organisation For them not to feel kind of O overpowered. How do you How do How do you, um how do you do that? We take a very gentle approach. We try and start. Basically, [00:02:30] we the ideal is to meet people on their own territory and not make it hard for them. So, uh, working with their hours because a lot of people are part time or they're voluntary. So we try and go to them, and we keep it light and gentle. And we basically want to start a new friendship essentially and that there are no walls between us and that we want to, uh, work with them and work to their strengths and only [00:03:00] if they want to. It's all done with their permission and their desire to be involved. We don't push anything. It's it's not fair on people, so it's very organic. And I guess what you're looking at long term is to be collecting things that will be here forever. Absolutely so we're looking for material that's nationally significant, and it needs to be significant on many levels. So it really needs to speak to, uh, some very [00:03:30] big stories, but also, um, everyday experience as well. And it needs to be compelling, so it needs to have an interesting sort of material and visual uh, aspects. For example, the gender minorities posters are actually beautiful, beautifully designed and very compelling as objects in themselves. Uh, they need to represent, uh, maybe a zeitgeist moment as well. Uh, a turning point in society and culture and history. [00:04:00] Um, sometimes, uh, objects have a very long reach deep into the past, and they can help us understand the past. And they can also help us sort of, uh, almost, uh, provide a road map for the future as well. You know, we need to know where we've been and to help us to to go into the future. So with gender minorities now, what was what was the thing that prompted you to suddenly say, We need this material at Papa when, uh, it's act of Parliament. [00:04:30] It's mandated to represent all New Zealanders, and we don't it because it's we haven't been able to, sometimes because of resources and other competing priorities, and we desperately want to represent all New Zealanders. It's a very genuine it's mandated, but that, of course, requires work. And you've got to actually go out, got to go outside the building and actually form relationships and work alongside people to see what they might want to to do. What do they want to [00:05:00] see in the national collection? It's not all about what I think it's We need to think it all think about it all together. So were you having, um, discussions or working groups before you actually started approaching? Say, gender minorities, uh, or other organisations Did you did you have a kind of a sense of what should be collected? Uh, well, we've got great collections already. Uh, most of our LGBT Q I plus collecting started in the nineties when they were preparing for Papa. So there've been [00:05:30] various curators and various advisory groups and and advisors in the community that have helped us over the years and also LGBT Q I plus members of staff. So it's been this If you looked back into the last 2025 years, you would see lots of work quietly going on. Uh, so it's not like we're doing anything new. We're just building on past work, and it's been, uh, it's been a rich tapestry of involvement. [00:06:00] Uh, and it does. Things do change over time, and new groups flourish, and we form new relationships. Sometimes, uh, they can be people that have approached us or we've approached people. So it's it is a very organic process. What are some of the other things that you've collected over the last three years? We've collected, uh, a fantastic rugby ball assigned rugby ball. So what is significant [00:06:30] about this rugby ball? This is a very exciting object because we have, uh, the we have expected rugby objects in the collection. So we have all black uniforms and we have famous rugby balls from famous matches. But this rugby ball, this is from the first interprovincial gay rugby match. So both teams were comprised of gay players and this happened in 1998 and it was the crazy knights versus the rainbow heroes. [00:07:00] And then all the members of those teams signed the ball and then they presented it to one of the most ardent fan, Alan Bracegirdle. And then recently Alan felt that it needed to come back to New Zealand and go to a good home. And so, uh, through various channels, including yourself, Gareth, um, the ball came here to, and we're very excited because it helps. It helps. Uh, I don't know if the word is disrupt or it modifies that that national story of rugby that you expect to see in a museum, [00:07:30] and it just brings a whole new story in, and it complicates that story. And we think that's a It's a wonderful vehicle to tell other stories. You you were saying 1998. So that's actually very recent, that that that that this game happened, that these teams existed. I know that that's almost It's almost shocking. These most of these people, probably still all alive and still active. Some of them might even be still playing rugby. And it is so recent, and I think some people at the time in 98 had misgivings about having a gay team. Now, why [00:08:00] on earth you still need to have a gay team, but you still need even today you still need safe place, safe places. Uh, you still need to remind people about diversity. Um, so I think the ball is a great symbol of it. Am I right in thinking that Grant Robertson played on this team? Absolutely. He was a big part of the team, and he's spoken about it publicly a lot and how important it was for him. He met his partner in the team playing, [00:08:30] and it's hugely important, and he was a minister of sport. So it's quite wonderful that full circle there for his particular story. So has the rugby ball come to you, uh, covered in dirt? I mean, obviously, it's a used rugby ball. Is it dirty, or have you cleaned it? As far as I know, it's not dirty. It's it's compressed. It's lost its ear, so it will probably need a wee bit of a pump up if we're going to put it on display. But it's been very carefully looked after What else has come into the collections? So we've also been, uh, this year we've [00:09:00] been collecting around trans experiences, So we've worked with a wonderful young Trans man, Will Hanson and collected his transitional objects. So he curated them for us and then wrote about them himself. So that's been a wonderful project and very powerful objects like his chest binders, an empty box of testosterone, Um, and also a quirky objects that might surprise people like a a crown that he was given when he was [00:09:30] crowned by his friends as the king of the king of the ball. So quite a beautiful range of objects, also a little embroidery of his new name will with which his friend embroidered for him. So very touching, very intimate. And a very powerful story about transitioning in New Zealand. And in these days, that must be incredibly special, having such personal objects that are kind of so singular. But but also II, I guess, speak to a lot of people's experiences. [00:10:00] Absolutely. That's our key aim. We can only collect a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny fragment of New Zealanders experiences. There's only so much you can collect, so it's very We are very careful and very mindful about collecting a story that can speak to many people. And I think a lot of people will engage with Will's story on many levels. You know, he talks about, uh uh, his body, his, um, changing body and how he coped with, um, anxieties around [00:10:30] that. And a lot of people will respond to that whether or not they're trans. So what will happen with these objects? Will they go on display? Will there Will there be an exhibition At the moment, we are just aiming to get them onto our collections online so that they're virtually accessible. So that's our first aim. And then eventually we would love them to be part of our history. Renewal shows if we get that opportunity, but at the moment we don't have any display ideas firmly organised. But I hope [00:11:00] we can do virtual display. One of the things that's really jumped out to me over the last three years is the development of collections online. Um, I was really fortunate the other day to see online, uh, the photograph albums of Johnny Cross and Frankie L And, uh, yeah, maybe. Could you talk to me about, um, the the the kind of digitization of LGBTI Rainbow collections at Papa? Yes, it's been a great boon to, um, visibility access for researchers. [00:11:30] Collections online is just a marvellous tour, and it's the best thing that could have happened. Really. So our aim is to get everything online with a really good photograph and a good interpretive, what we call a Web summary. So there's lots of information that makers are named that personal stories are told. It's all done with people's permission, of course. Uh, so we're always very careful about consent. What? You know, what we write is, um, the and approved by the people involved and that they give [00:12:00] their full consent. So once they've got got that full consent, then we can celebrate the material and release it online. Uh, the other side of that, of course, is making it easily findable. And we've been doing a bit of work around that and trying to classify our rainbow collections in more appropriate ways and more easily findable ways. And that's quite a mission because our database relies on Northern Hemisphere classification systems, Um, namely the Library of Congress. The [00:12:30] so And they are a little bit, I would say, quite conservative, maybe traditional in their, um, gender terms, particularly around rainbow terms. But we've had a We've had a really good experience this year in digging deep into those the and releasing better terms that better better describe the New Zealand, uh, rainbow experience. For example, we've been able to surface the acronym LGBT, which encompasses a whole lot of other acronyms like LGBT [00:13:00] Q. These the So do not include the word queer or the word rainbow, but they include just about every other term that New Zealanders would be familiar with. So we're just trying to apply the terms as uniformly and as widespread as possible so that researchers and, um, anybody looking for rainbow material hopefully will find it. It's not precise, and it's not perfect, but we are improving it as we go. I think you talked about last [00:13:30] time about even if there isn't a term as such in the that, you can add it to your description. Yes, that absolutely thank you for saying that. So in our Web summaries and their free text, you can put any term you like. So there we can put rainbow and queer, and you're quite right. You can search you. If you search queer, those records will pop up. So it's about being really strategic and really careful in your naming and describing in your in your narratives to make sure that you've got that terminology [00:14:00] coming through. How was that for, um, say, Will's collection coming in? Were there any, uh, things around about? You know, how Will wanted to name things as opposed to what you actually had in your database. That's a really good question. Uh, II, I think, because he's a researcher, Uh, already he's doing a masters in trans history and politics, and he was familiar with the National Library systems. Um, he saw alliances. So we didn't see any issues there [00:14:30] with that, um, that classifying or that describing that was a very smooth process. And is it something of a new thing where you actually get the person depositing to actually write, say, the descriptions or the summaries, as opposed to, like a curator later on, absolutely generally speaking to date on the whole, curators have drafted the interpretive material and then checked it past the person. Uh, sometimes it's just been because we've [00:15:00] brought all the information together from different perspectives. It's not always about that one person's perspective. It's often a bigger story that the person's story fits into. So therefore we've drafted the interpretation and then checked it past them. But with will it is his story. The history story dominates, and we wanted to dominate because it actually still will speak to a bigger story itself. So we were very determined that his words would be the record for [00:15:30] these objects. So So just thinking about kind of the and classification are you actively going through and and tagging, uh, objects with kind of LGBTI tags? Yes. So what I've done just off my own batch with the history collection objects at Papa is I identified what objects were overtly associated with Rainbow history and LGBT Q I plus stories and makers. And I was actually able to [00:16:00] tag 730 individual object records that were very clearly about LGBT Q I plus experiences. And I thought that was really exciting because that actually indicates that there's probably many, many, many more objects that aren't so obviously identifiable but actually might be in that realm. And there's also, of course, all the other departments at Papa that might be able to tag their objects as well. So that's like art photography. Um [00:16:30] uh, Maori. The Pacific team are starting to take their objects, too, so it's quite exciting when you think about that. The power of tagging or taking is probably not quite weird, but the power of classifying in using those terms that people can find. So So how did you how did you initially come up with that list of of 700 plus items? I mean, how how did you know that? Well, I must say I knew a lot of them because I've collected a lot of the objects, and I know from the history of the last 25 years, um, where those objects are. [00:17:00] So I it it was quite clear to me how to bring those together and also talking to my curatorial colleagues as well. Sometimes I there's subjects and talking to our art curator. Some of the art curators have tagged their classified their objects as well. So you do need to keep talking to people. I call it socialising the idea amongst, um, curators. So you need to keep talking to colleagues and asking them, You know, what is in your collections that might have a rainbow story or rainbow influence and just [00:17:30] getting to to sort of really dig deep and think about it. So does that mean I could go on the te Papa Collections online website and enter that tag for, say, LGBTI? And it would bring up all those results? Well, you have to be quite precise. This is the problem with it. You have to enter LGBT because it's a northern Hemisphere acronym. Yes. So if you enter LGBT that will bring up those objects. What other objects have come [00:18:00] in? Well, I I'm very passionate about small, everyday objects, how people self identify in small ways that are manageable for them. So I particularly love things like posters and T shirts and badges. Uh, so I personally collected the some very, very tiny pronoun badges, which are made by, um, Rainbow Youth. I think they do wonderful work, and I thought this was a really cool way just to get that whole, Uh, it's [00:18:30] it's it's OK. And you should ask what people's pronoun pronouns are. And I thought, What can participate in that by collecting the material culture of pronoun? And I think that's it's sort of like a It's just a very small, tiny activism. I think that museums can engage in is collect the material that people are using to make the world a better place. Essentially, it's a little bit of human rights work, and I think even though badges are tiny, uh, takes courage to wear them. And, uh, these little pronoun badges, if you wear them, they start a dialogue [00:19:00] with people. People ask you, you know, what is your pronoun? Why do you need to why are you wearing your pronouns? And I think, uh, I think it's a really It's a really nice way to access those stories and those important changes in society. Can you just describe what the badges look like? Well, they're very plain, everything tiny. They're white with pink text on them. One says they slash them. One says she slash her, and one says he slash him. So these are just some of the pronouns [00:19:30] available. I mean, there are multiple pronouns out there, and it's, um it's expanding territory. And it's just really interesting that I think Papa, uh, tapa is a national museum needs to capture these little moments. Uh, that I call them Little Zeitgeist moments as society expands its thinking beyond the binary. So these badges, even though they're tiny, they are hugely significant. But they are tiny, but it's not [00:20:00] a tiny amount of work that goes into, like acquiring something like that. Can you tell me how much time it would take to, say, acquire these three badges? Absolutely. It takes a lot of time because we need to write a very well informed justification proposal to collect anything, and it needs to be well thought out and a reference to work. So I need to look at the literature and look at, uh, what's happening in history and place the badges in a wider context. And it needs to be very [00:20:30] well thought out. And they now need the support of my curatorial colleagues as well. And then, if everybody supports it, then I need my head of department to support it. If they support it, then, um then it goes to our senior collection development committee, and then they decide whether or not it should come to the national collection. So it's a very long process, but it begins with me seeing something that I think is nationally significant and then working it up and justifying it [00:21:00] for the national collection in front of me. You've got a document that you wrote in October 2018 called Rainbow Community Collections at te Papa. Tell me about that. So last year I felt very passionate that I wanted to document uh what we the work we do because I firmly believe we're papa is a human rights museum, and I really wanted to document what we do and what we aspire to do with our Rainbow community collections at Papa. So I wrote a document [00:21:30] which I shared with my team and and everybody is, you know, really excited. And it's it's been very useful. So it talks about the fact that we do collect and we do display objects and stories which reflect and materialise LGBT Q I plus life and experiences and histories and a we actually do do that work and our aims are always to represent the diversity and richness of our rainbow communities. And we want to bring hidden histories to light with people's permission. [00:22:00] We want to work with people and we want to. We want to collaborate with people with community advisors. We want Coco collect and co curate, and we often use the disability activist motto, which is nothing about us without us. So we always want to be fair and work with people and we want to be an advocate for rainbow communities as well. You know, we can engage in contemporary discussions on gender diversity and some of the issues facing Rainbow communities. You know, we can be a safe place for those conversations. We want to be relevant to people. [00:22:30] So we sort of what, what we've been observing over the last few years is this incredible sort of opening up and expanding of, um, rainbow life and experience and terminology, and, uh, and where we're going, where where are we going in the future? We want to be part of all that. So this is sort of why I wanted to write a document about where we've been and where we're going and what we hope for. One of those, um, discussion points in your document is under the title discussions [00:23:00] to be held. What are the discussions that you wanted to hold? Well, we wanted to talk about how we name and frame our collections. Uh, so the acronyms we use, the classification systems we use, and we've talked quite a bit about that, uh, talking about how do we want to, um, use our indigenous terms and our Pacific gender terms? Uh, like, for example. And we wanted to, uh, really sort of work across to [00:23:30] papa. We wanted to work with our like, even our HR team. You know, uh, is to Papa, you know, Are we fit for purpose when it comes to our rainbow communities and how we collect and how we interact? Oh, And also we wanted to look at our public programmes. You know, our exhibitions often we privilege, uh, sort of overt stories that people might expect to see. Like, for example, flamboyant stories like can, uh, homosexual law reform, you know, moments [00:24:00] of great conflict and anxiety and change. So we've we've we've been thinking about How do we actually just tell everyday stories? You know, we don't It doesn't always have to be these big, loud moments or moments of anxiety and conflict. We could tell just everyday stories through a rainbow lens. So we've been trying to challenge ourselves in that way. And I guess for, um, objects That may not be, um, kind of outwardly rainbow. [00:24:30] But I mean, everyone is full of a whole range of different intersectionality. And so, um, I guess how you say that somebody is from the Rainbow Communities when in fact, the exhibition might not be about the Rainbow Communities. It's a really good point. It's what story do you privilege and because, uh, papa tends to have a very less is more approach on the exhibition floor because we really want people to have a good experience. So we don't want to overwhelm them with, [00:25:00] um, too many stories. Sometimes you do privilege, certain aspects of an object in the person's story, and you might not reference their rainbow story at all or their experience at all. And other times you will. So it's a very careful curatorial, um, decision making process where we all work together collaboratively with our, um, audience and Insight team about how do you get the right stories across and be really fair to the maker or fear to the objects [00:25:30] stories? And it is tricky. It is tricky. What are some of the other objects that have come in? So we are constantly looking, uh, to fill gaps in the past record. And, uh, we've had some lovely opportunities to collect objects around the homosexual law reform campaign in 1985 and 1986 and again, Gareth, you've helped us with that too. You you've got your eye out there, and sometimes people need a little bit of support and encouragement to offer things to Papa. They don't think that they they're all post [00:26:00] or or all placard which have find a place here. But it does find a place. We're very keen because we had very small holdings around the homosexual law reform campaign. Uh, for example, we collected this wonderful, uh, placard by Hugh Young, which says, I signed 27 times. It's very obscure, but it's it's history, and its moment is incredibly significant because it was made by hug supporters during, um, some of the worst moments of the campaign. For example, when the antireformers, led by [00:26:30] MP Norm Jones, um, collected this huge petition against, um, reforming the law and presented to Parliament on the steps of Parliament. But many of the boxes were half empty or multiple signatures from the same people or false signatures. And so Hugh Young, who was part of the heterosexuals unafraid of gays movement. He and his friends painted these placards and has said, I signed 27 times and they held it up as the petition was being presented on [00:27:00] the steps of Parliament. So it's very ironic. It's very subtle. You have to know the context, so we very carefully have, um, interpreted it so that people understand what the object means. But Hugh himself, I think, was a bit worried that it was subtle and that maybe nobody would want it, but he had carefully looked after it all these years, and I think it's just marvellous that he was that he felt safe enough to actually give it to the National Museum, where it's found a place of honour. And what what are some of the other, uh, items [00:27:30] that have come in over the last couple of years? How we've been able to collect more, uh, wonderful posters, particularly New Zealand AIDS Foundation, safer sex posters and anti discrimination posters about Taku peoples? And they've been very powerful. So from sort of the nine, well, actually going back to about the eighties now we've We're starting to get reasonable, safer sex campaign posters, and we've come up to recent times up up to about two years ago. We've got posters from those campaigns, and it's just to show [00:28:00] the changing concerns around HIV and AIDS and how those concerns are, uh, disseminated in city streets. What sort of community groups are being targeted? Sometimes the posters are very targeted. Sometimes they're quite wide in their reach. But we just want to try and track those changes and imagery and messaging over the last generation. Uh, we're also keeping our eye on fashion. So we've recently collected Jimmy Dee's wonderful [00:28:30] gender bender collection recently where he's looking at how, uh, gender informs clothing and he's deconstructed it. Uh, we also collected Linda Lapo work. She's a designer, and we collected some really amazing set pieces from her work, and we've also collected just just looking for collecting around our gaps. So we collected a few posters in a badge from Lagos, the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand. They had some spare copies [00:29:00] of really important posters looking at pride and devotion in the nineties and a really fantastic early badge from the late 19 seventies, which says, We are everywhere, which is wonderful Pink Triangle badge. So we're also on the lookout for those really important symbols in rainbow history, like the Rainbow and the Pink Triangle, Um, and looking to fill some of those important gaps around our social history. Well, well, Speaking of social history, I was really impressed to see that during this year's Pride [00:29:30] Festival, um, te papa was doing, uh, a 101 event, uh, around um, LGBTI Rainbow Communities. And I just wonder if you could maybe talk about that, but also some of the other kind of access and publication opportunities that have happened, uh, with regard to these these collections over the last couple of years. Yes, we've had some wonderful access opportunities over the last couple of years, and I'm very proud of them because with the wider team at Papa, we've been [00:30:00] able to actually provide access in quite different ways from the wonderful friends event Pride 101, which was held this year where we had some really exciting speakers and a really great appreciative audience. And that was a wonderful thing to see the friends doing. And then we were able to very quickly publish one of the speeches by Drew Hedwin, who is one of the co directors of Pride this year, and we managed to provide our blogging platform to their work, and that was a wonderful [00:30:30] moment. Um, and we we offered two lots of tours at our different, uh, locations up to street here at where we got out our fashion collection, our Rainbow fashion collections, our homosexual law reform objects, the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt. We really were able to celebrate the diversity of our collections on different physical locations. That's very exciting. To be able to do that. It takes a lot of work, but people really appreciate it, and it's really meaningful [00:31:00] for us. The staff as well. We get a lot out of it. Sometimes you can call that a knowledge exchange sort of situation. That's why I love the events, because people bring so much to the events and tell us amazing things. And we end up having quite a an emotional as well as an intellectual exchange. And I love that about access events. So we've been able to get the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt out, probably about twice a year for various events and, uh, from young people. We've had secondary school school [00:31:30] students view it right through to your walking tour right through to pride events, um, through to artist events. So it's actually had some really interesting interactions, and it's kept that quilt alive. You know, it's it's a community. Um, it has very, uh, important national and international stories embedded in it. It's not just, um, of interest to the Rainbow Communities. It's of interest to everybody, and it's been a real thrill to share it widely, and it's beautifully online, too. Of [00:32:00] course, I've got to say that seeing something online and then seeing it in the physical space, um, are quite different. Uh, quite different feelings, aren't they? Absolutely, uh, researchers often come to us and say, I want to see this, and I wanna see this and I want to see this, so I start them. I start by sending them the collections online links they like, you know, zoom in. You'll see all the detail on this photo and then let me know if you want to see it in the flesh, and people invariably do come back and say, Yes, I do want to see it in the flesh, And it's very important that people [00:32:30] actually do if they can see it, because there's something about the material presence of an object and it will move you in unexpected ways, and you can never always know what those ways will be. And you can intellectualise all you like about objects. But when you're in the presence of an object, it can actually be quite a different thing, and it can make you think new thoughts and make new connections and it can be very inspiring. So So one of the things that struck me over the last couple of years, [00:33:00] uh, at te papa is, uh, Papa has been involved in Pink Shirt Day, which was originally about, um, homophobic bullying, but has kind of, um, broadened out into, um, being, um, an anti-bullying day. Um, internationally, Um, can you tell me about the papa's involvement in that? So te Papa has observed Pink Shirt Day now for the last two years since 2018 and lots of staff have engaged with it and it's been really successful, and it seems to me it's a kind of interesting [00:33:30] times that we live in, and I think it's it's probably been inflicted to by the me too movement and times up movements. So it's become much broader than its original. I think that's a good thing. Looking to the future. What do you think the Papas collection policies will be around Rainbow LGBTI going forward? Well, we will always have an inclusive collection strategy. We will always try and represent all New Zealanders, [00:34:00] no matter where they've come from or what their orientation is or what their identity is that's always going to be the aim, and it's it links right back to our act of Parliament. But it depends on the, uh, the the take. We, uh, decide on each year how we going to actually manifest that each year and our actual actual collecting. So this year we're focused on trans experiences, and as we go forward, I we will [00:34:30] broaden that out. And we will look at intersex experiences and other experiences because it's really important that we diversify the collections as much as possible. So it's just gently finding our way forward. But there is There is complete commitment in my team, and I guess the more that you collect, the more that other people will be saying, Well, why aren't you collecting me? So are you open for people to be coming to you and saying, Well, you should be collecting this experience? Absolutely. [00:35:00] Because we we're only a very small demographic here behind the scenes, so we actually need people's advice and guidance and suggestions. It's it's just critical that we work with New Zealanders on deciding what to collect. And even though I say that I at the end of the day we we can only collect a fragment, just fragments of experience. But we want to hear what people think those fragments should be, because it's very important that the National Museum represents as much [00:35:30] of New Zealand as possible.

IRN: 2089
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/poutokomanawa_the_carmen_rupe_generation_opening_night.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004573
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089867
TITLE: Poutokomanawa: The Carmen Rupe Generation - opening night
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Chanel Hati; Georgina Beyer; Glenda Hughes; Jaenine Parkinson; Kevin Haunui; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Rangimoana Taylor; Taupuruariki Brightwell; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1950s; 1960s; 1970s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Barry Crump; Bistro bar; Carmen Rupe; Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Carol de Winter; Catherine Healy; Chanel Hati; Chris Parkin; Chrissy Witoko Memorial Trust; Club Exotic; Club Exotique; Cuba Mall; Cuba Street; Dana de Milo; Egyptian Tearooms; Georgie Keyse; Georgina Beyer; Glenda Hughes; Gypsy (Wellington); Hole in the Wall; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Jacquie Grant; Jaenine Parkinson; James Carroll; Kathy Parkin; Kevin Haunui; Kirkcaldie and Stains; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Martin Luther King Jr; Michael Barrymore; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; NZ Truth; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; New Zealand Portrait Gallery; Nicole Duval; Phyliss Munro; Pose (tv series); Poutokomanawa (artwork); Poutokomanawa: The Carmen Rupe Generation (exhibition, 2019); Prostitution Reform Act (2003); Rangi Carroll; Rangimoana Taylor; Robert Jones; Rongowhakaata; Roy Stacey; Royal Oak Hotel; Salvation Army Citadel; Sam Orchard; Simon Witoko; Sunset Strip; Sydney; Talei Langley; Taupuruariki Brightwell; Tavern bar (Royal Oak Hotel); Ted Cox; The Purple Onion; Tim Barnett; Tīwhanawhana; Vivian Street; Wally Martin; Wellington; Whetu Tirikatene Sullivan; Wilsons Whisky; activism; alcohol; alcohol laws; alcohol license; ancestors; arts; beneficiaries; coffee bar; coffin; colonisation; conservative; elders; exhibition; helmet; homosexual law reform; law; manaakitanga; marae; marriage equality; music; photography; police; politics; postcard; pou; poutokomanawa; raids; rangatahi; roast; runaway; safe space; sex work; takatāpui; the dole (unemployment benefit); toasted sandwich; trans; transexual; transgender; tupuna; tupuna takatāpui; visibility; window dressing
DATE: 20 September 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: New Zealand Portrait Gallery, Shed 11/60 Lady Elizabeth Lane, Pipitea, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the opening night of Poutokomanawa: The Carmen Rupe Generation. The exhibition runs from 20 September - 15 December 2019 at the New Zealand Portrait Gallery in Wellington. A special thank you to the organisers and speakers for allowing this event to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: [00:00:30] [00:01:00] [00:01:30] thank Donald. Oh, wow. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Fantastic. It's, uh, amazing to see such a wonderful crowd here this evening. [00:02:00] I'm Malcolm Kennedy Vaughn, and I'm going to be your MC for this, uh, lovely lovely opening of this exhibition. And I must say, what a fantastic job the portrait Gallery has done for this exhibition. It certainly brings back some fantastic memories and, uh, thank you to Fantastic. We'll be going to hear a little bit more of the, uh, the guys and the girls a little bit later on in the programme. I have a honour. It's an honour. And I feel so privileged to be here tonight to do this event. Um, [00:02:30] I look back at this, uh, portraits in here, and they are truly outstanding to see yourself from so many years ago and people pointing out to you. Well, you know, time does take its toll on everybody, but, uh, hey, listen, we're all still here, but it's truly fantastic. Um, our family, This is where it all began many, many years ago. And I've always, um, had a fond love for our transgender community. Uh, for many, many years, [00:03:00] when I was in the 17 and 18 year old um, age bracket. I spent quite a bit of time. I can tell you down at Carmen's coffee Lounge and not just there for the coffee, I can tell you, but it's, uh, truly been, um, a mind blowing experience to see people that you haven't seen for years. But I don't want to bore you too much with, uh, my time. I'd like to introduce to you now, um, Janine Parkinson, who is the, uh, director for the New Zealand Port trade Gallery? Janine, [00:03:30] if I can have you up here a moment, please. Big hand, please. Fantastic job. Hm? [00:04:00] Parkinson. Good evening, everyone. I'm delighted you could all join us here tonight to celebrate the opening of the common generation. My name is Janine Parkinson, and I am the director of the New Zealand Portrait Gallery. [00:04:30] In my personal introduction, I just explained that I was born in up the coast, which is south of the river. But I live now here in Wellington. There are many thanks and acknowledgements that I have to share tonight. Um, but first I would like to acknowledge Carmen Carmen Rupe, Chrissy Ko Dana Demilo Georgina, Baa and all those of their generation and many of whom have passed [00:05:00] away now and whose stellar personality is an enormous contribution. We are celebrating with this exhibition. I also would like to especially, um, acknowledge Dion who I know as a member of the community who passed away just recently, and I will let others acknowledge her more fully. I would like to extend a very special thanks to Chanel hati, who has worked alongside us tirelessly to make this exhibition. [00:05:30] Um, Chanel will say a few words in a minute, but we have a very special gift that we would like to present to her. So if you would just join us a little bit up here for a minute. And while I do that I would also like to, um acknowledge and thank Tale Langley and Georgie Keys, who, um, worked on curating this exhibition alongside Chanel. So a big thanks to Chanel, something little handmade for [00:06:00] you. Yeah. Um, we also have many, um, young artists who have participated in the exhibition, Um, two of which are here tonight with us. Ari Brightwell, Uh, and Sam Orchard. Um, yeah, we've got a few little things for you, too. Thank you. And, um, also to for the wonderful, um, as [00:06:30] we came in and for, um, helping us with arranging tonight. So thank you very much for your support. Yeah, um, no. Exhibition is an island, and we've done, uh, we've made this with the the help and support of our many, uh, trustees, a number of whom are here tonight, Um, our big friends community, Um, our many volunteers and our small but very tight knit team. So, um, my thanks to all [00:07:00] of you for supporting us and what we do. Um, especially we've got a number of the New Zealand Portrait Gallery is not a government funded organisation. We rely on donations and support from our members of our community. And I'd like to acknowledge Chris and Kay Park and who have, um, supported a publicist for this exhibition so we can help get the story out. So it's amazing what, um, small contributions like that can do for us. Um, the Chrissy to trust is a sponsor of this exhibition, and so a big thank you to [00:07:30] all of them. They've also supported this opening, and we'll be supporting some, uh, public programmes throughout the exhibition. Last but definitely not not least I'd like to thank the New Zealand prostitutes' collective who have catered the event, which you'll see enjoy soon and also for their support of Chanel, who has given huge amounts of time. Um, so behind every great woman. There's a great team. Of course, Um, we have enjoyed beginning to share [00:08:00] this exhibition with everyone, and I think the trend that has started with everyone kind of coming out and sharing their stories with us, um will continue as the exhibition goes on for the next three months. Um, we have, as I mentioned, a special public programme to support the exhibition, and Scottie and Ma are gonna lead a community conversation to let those stories be told a more fully than we could do on the walls. Um, and that'll be Saturday, the 11th of October at 1 p. m. So you're all invited to come along to that, and, [00:08:30] um, help us fill in some of the blanks in that storytelling. Um, and if you'd like to take a memento of the exhibition home with you, we've made a, uh, limited edition, um, of postcards. So you can buy those at the front. Now, without any further ado, I'd like to invite my team to join us up here because we have a that we've, um, done a little bit of preparation on, um especially for you and you If you know the words which I'm sure you will please join the clear. [00:09:00] Do you see it in my eye? Oh, wait time so we wouldn't take We go But, [00:09:30] baby Yeah, yeah, he Thank you, Janine. And all the crew from the New Zealand portrait gley, uh, gallery. Fantastic. Um, I think the best thing to do [00:10:00] right now would bring on, um uh, a woman who I have fond, fond memories of who as, uh, Jeanine has just said has done a lot for this exhibition. Could you please put your hands together and welcome on stage the one and only Chanel cutting out in the heat? Um [00:10:30] uh, [00:11:00] thanks everybody for coming. It's really touching to, um see everybody here tonight. Um, first of all, I just want to say, um, we thought of a concept for, for for the exhibition, and it was and is the Central Ridge Pole in the middle of a and like those safe spaces that are [00:11:30] common And that Chrissy provided, um this is where people gathered, uh, who were family And, um, who knew each other. And it's very similar to how they gather on the So we saw Carmen, Chris, Donna, Jackie Grant as well. We saw them as our Poe. Or if we can literally translate that, um, as our pillars of our [00:12:00] community. And, um, you know, those times back in the 19 seventies were quite hard. I mean, I was a bit apprehensive about doing this because I don't go. I'm not that era. But I know the stories. I know the people, I know the history. And so I thought, Just do it because they're my elders, As I am [00:12:30] an elder to the younger generation and, you know, to work on this exhibition with these beautiful ladies. It has been a It's been a real honour because I've never done anything like this like this before. But, um, it's been a wonderful journey to see it come to its. Its completion is just like it's just, like, so, so satisfying and to see to see you all here tonight, you know, we, we, we we we think [00:13:00] about car. And, um um, back in in her day and and all the conservative views and and all the restrictions, uh, the restrictive laws. And, um, what Carmen did is she rekindled that debate about sex work. Um, and gay rights. And you really do need somebody to have their conversation. [00:13:30] Um, Martin Luther King once said I have a dream, and their dream may not be fulfilled in that generation, but with perseverance. Um, and 11 united voice. I'm, I assure you, it will happen in the next generation. And it has all the things they come and dreamed about in her day were gay rights. Uh, legalisation [00:14:00] of, uh, legalisation of sex work, restrictions on alcohol. All these things we have today because somebody dreamed that dream and the next generation stood up and spoke about it. And it was amazing because it went from very a very conservative stance on these issues and over the years, into a more liberal view. And [00:14:30] because of those dreams, it's what we have today. We have We have marriage equality. We have decriminalisation of sex work. We have, uh, homosexual law reform and, um, I'm proud that in my generation, I'd love to see all that. I also want to say that we had a very, um, strained relationship with the police back in those [00:15:00] days. But I'll tell you what, they did what they did, because that's what they had to do. And all those to all those you know, people who were police officers who showed compassion and empathy. And you know who you are. If you're here tonight, we just want to say thank you and to end. I just want to say that this is this is about keeping, um, a legacy keeping our stories [00:15:30] alive for the next generation because they will be asking why is why do you have it? Why do we have it so good? But we just look to the past and at the end I just want to say to come and to all those who stood for us as we stand today because you stood for us. OK, take it. [00:16:00] [00:16:30] Vo my heat. Bye. Yeah, I I'm not too late, [00:17:00] I think. Two miles. Ok? That part, I hope. [00:17:30] Yeah. Oh, they found out that Yeah, [00:18:00] [00:18:30] yeah, yeah, I get that in. OK, one. [00:19:00] Well, again. Thank you to And, uh, Chanel. Amazing speech, darling. Absolutely fab. I found myself watering up a wee bit. Fantastic. Uh, I'm gonna open the floor a wee. But now I've got a few people that I would like to, uh, get to say a few words. Um, one of them is a former Commonwealth Games champion. She's a former police officer who got to wear the first boots in town, if I remember rightly. And she was a police officer that showed that love and the compassion. She's currently, uh, standing [00:19:30] for the Wellington Regional Council. Could you please welcome to the floor one and only Glenda Hughes, Firstly, Chanel. I want to thank you. You made me tear up as well. But, um, I think I wanna I wanna do two bits. One is that I'm here on behalf of the family. So some of you may not know, but I've actually lived with Chrissy's brother for the last 25 years. And [00:20:00] I met his brother, her brother, our brother, because it was always very hard with he was never quite sure he'd He'd make comments sometimes. I met Chrissy before I met and I met Chrissy when I was a police woman because she was on the front door of most of the nightclubs around town where the girls used to run away to And I mean, um Young missing girls from schools and things like that. And Chrissy and I had this deal where [00:20:30] she would keep them all at a table and she would buy them all toasted sandwiches and then I would come in and I would talk to them all. And the reason that she got me to do that was because she knew that I wouldn't take them back to the cells, that I wouldn't charge them, but that I would talk through with them how they needed to manage all the different things that were going on in their lives and then take them home. And we started doing that, believe it or not. In 1970 [00:21:00] when she was involved, Um, I think it was at that stage, the Sunset Strip, and she was on the door there. Simon was there. He was about 15. I was 20. And whenever I came in the door, he used to run and hide because he shouldn't have been there and he shouldn't have been drinking. I have no control now. What I want [00:21:30] to tell you about the family is I think they they sort of they hid their lights under a bushel. That particular family they are. Most of them are now in Hawke's Bay. A lot of them have passed on, but they were phenomenal musicians and phenomenal talent. And some of you may not be aware that Chrissy used to do the window dressing for and stains and that wonderful Christmas display that you used to see every year was [00:22:00] done by Chrissy We. And now what I would say is we're on to the third generation. So I'm looking after Chrissy's great, uh, great nieces and nephews. And you'll all be pleased to know that one is coming, uh, to Wellington next year to live with us. And he's going to Victoria University to study law. Uh, one of the daughters is currently, um, captain of the Hawke's Bay Netball. The niece is captain of the Hawke's Bay Netball team, [00:22:30] and another one is currently leading the Kaha Group for So what Chrissy did was not just for your community. She also was a great leader for her own, and that came about after her father first rejected her. And yet, at the end, I think she was her father's favourite, so she completely turned it. The other thing about [00:23:00] her was she had a a pretty good political lineage as well, which I argue with over now because he argues with me about being a politician and says This is shocking and why am I doing it? So I just every now and remind him that his great great aunty was, um Sullivan, the first Maori woman in, uh, Parliament and his ancestor was Sir James Carroll, the first Maori to ever be a prime minister in this country. [00:23:30] And he was an acting prime minister. So I I and also the collages that you see out there were donated by the because I can remember. Chrissy, who sometimes needed to do things, secretly grabbed me, pushed me into a car on Vivian Street and said, Glenda, I'm not very well and I said, I've been telling you that for four years and she said, I need to give you a message and I said, What's that? She said. Those collages that are on the walls [00:24:00] in my evergreen must go to the museum now, After she passed on, they went missing for a while and we had to find them again. And then we got the to actually sign them over to She would be absolutely just smiling and everything about today's because this was what she dreamed. That absolute acknowledgement from a police woman's point of view. What I want to say to you is [00:24:30] your community taught me so much. You had compassion. You had talent. You had wonderful conversation. Um, I was one of the only police women in Wellington at the time. There was only six of us here. And, um, the squad that I belong to was probably the meanest squad as far as Viard Street was concerned. And in the end, I was able to convince them to let me deal with it. [00:25:00] Um, which was really good because a lot of them were quite prejudiced and and what Janel was talking about, You know how sometimes the police were not fair, But all I can say to you is that you actually gave me the same respect and dignity, and you looked after me well, and you made sure that I was all OK, I can remember once, and I think it's Georgina mentioned it in her book where I did sit a few of you down and say You actually don't need to work in the sex industry. You can get jobs anywhere. I didn't [00:25:30] expect Georgina to do what she did. That wasn't that wasn't really in my mind. But I still remember recently going, um, to, uh when Jenny and and Dana passed on. And Jenny was still working in the job that she got at the time that I said to her, You don't have to work at which was at the hospital and the hospital thought so much of her that they let her continue to work there when she couldn't turn up all the time and they made, uh, allowances for [00:26:00] her. So what? What I want to say is, uh, finally, I'm not I was asked to tell you the funny stories about where I found the alcohol. Um, and the, uh What is it? What is it? The 35 ft pipe that was in Alibaba's that we did several raids we couldn't actually find the whiskey. Um, and I started to get the blame because what happened was the cops would go in, they would buy the whiskey, then they'd come back and they say we're going to raid the Sunset Strip. And I was on the raid and they'd get there and they couldn't find any whiskey and they'd go. Glenda [00:26:30] Hughes has told them We know Glenda Hughes told them so in the end, I decided to every time they did a raid on it, I'd say, All right, you're doing a raid. I am standing behind beside the Sergeant from this moment on, so you can see everything I do. But the day we found it, it was my flatmate that found it. He was a policeman at the time, and what happened was he just went along the walls and started pushing these, uh, pushing the walls. And what they had in there was phenomenal. They had the cleaners cupboard, which had disinfectant [00:27:00] bottles on the top of it. Um, and that was absolutely full of whiskey. And then they had this long plastic pipe that went through all of the walls a couple of cupboards and came out underneath the sink and it had a piece of wood that you just pulled down immediately. The cops came in and and pushed the taps back into the wall. Anyway, they found it. My flatmate found it. He pulls the pipe out. And of course, what happens is he's got this, you know, feet [00:27:30] and feet of whiskey pouring all over him because he's got this pipe from him. And he turned around and said to Karen or tell me who it was, Was it? He said to Fran, Um, can you stop it? She said, you started it, You stop it. And I guess one of the other ones, which I'll probably give away a trade secret here, was when um Chrissy was very sick and Simon and I had been overseas and we knew that someone else is running the coffee bar. And so I said to Simon, Oh, you know, we [00:28:00] should bring some whiskey back, you know, so that they can Actually, there used to be a little bit of whiskey and the coffee there on the odd occasion. Um and so anyway, we bought this beautiful whiskey at, um at the airport, and when we got back in. Um, what happened was I went over there to see how everything was, and, um, they said, Oh, they don't like the whiskey. And so I did some inquiries and discovered that I don't know whether all of you knew that you'd been drinking home brew from [00:28:30] and the issue was that this was real whiskey and the final story that I'll leave you with which Which sort of gives you a view of Chrissy? I walked up Vivian Street one day because I lived just down from where the evergreen was, and I walked up Vivian Street one day, and I noticed that the roller door was down on the window of the, um of the place and I thought, Oh, I wonder what's going on because I was worried about it. So I knocked on the door and Chrissie opened and she said, Come [00:29:00] in And I said, What's going on? And she said, Oh, Mr Barry Moore is here and he's drunk and I don't want the public to see. So I've pulled the the the door down so that they can't see and about, since it's about 15 minutes later, I mean, Mr Barry Moore from England, by the way, and about 15 minutes later, this huge limousine came up. Two guys came rushing in. They grabbed Barry Moore, put him in the car and drove off. And the next day, on [00:29:30] the front of the Sunday news was the story Barry Moore given up drink. And I thought, just as well, they didn't get their photo at two o'clock this morning. So I think I think I hope that's that just gives you a feel. But look, I do. I, I would like to personally thank Papa for this because I absolutely know. Um, you know how Chrissy would feel about this. And the only reason the we family aren't here today is there's actually a big musicians, uh, thing going on in in Waikato, and they're all up there, um, doing [00:30:00] what they do. Well, thank you. Oh, fantastic. Glenda, you gotta come to that storytelling. You've got to come to that. I think you've got a lot more stories there. And I think Karen, you've probably got a few. So please do come to it. It's gonna be fantastic, OK? Our next week I'd like to invite up her. Well, she knows, needs no introduction. Really whatsoever. Former mayor of Carterton former labour MP Could you please welcome my lifetime friend for over 40 years? Georgina Baer. [00:30:30] Uh, everybody. What a wonderful evening to be here. Linda. So glad to see you, my darling. After a after a wee while and yes, I I did mention in my book, uh, I think I called it, um, firm compassion that you and Ted Cox bestowed on us in the scene at that time. [00:31:00] It is wonderful to be here with some of my contemporaries and Chanel. Thank you. And your co-creator for honouring our dear Carmen in this way and therefore honouring all of our generation and those that came after, um, us, uh, for everything. Brilliant. And, um And like Linda said, uh, you don't have to just work on the street. And and you and many of us have proved that we are the living legacy post Carmen and Chrissy and [00:31:30] oh, Jackie is still with us. That's right. And, um, I know we should all take a moment, of course, to think and reflect upon those who have passed. Um, there are few of us left now. Um uh, uh uh, on the cold of she's still with us up in Auckland and all of that and Carmen had this incredible connection. We have taken her as a Wellington based person, but of course, her personality. Her fabulousness spread [00:32:00] far beyond, uh, Wellington. She did have an early period in her life, which was significant in Auckland when she worked for Wally Martin, the the San Francisco and, um oh, I can't remember the name of the other night club Now strip club up there and one of the first trans anyhow to work in a strip club. Um, in those days, they were pioneering days. Then that's the late fifties early sixties when Carmen had that and then before she went and had her for first time round in Australia as [00:32:30] Kiwi, Carmen. And some of those photographs are among the, um, collages and and the memorabilia surrounding, uh, the Carmen portrait. Um, that has been done. It's wonderful to look back and see some of that stuff. Um, I'm a beneficiary of the shoulders I stand upon, and so are we all. Really? None of us ever thought, you know that in our lifetimes we would see the incredible change in acceptance [00:33:00] that has come for trans people. We are not finished yet, of course. But it has given the new generation of transgender activists a voice that they are using very strongly. Now I might have. And while we might, um, have issues ourselves of our generation, uh, with some of the new things that have merged under the 30 odd definitions of transgender, um, it was quite confined to vocabulary back in our day of, um what was what? But now that's expanded. [00:33:30] And this is a wonderful development. All we wanted, really, I guess, was to be able to fulfil our own potential. But societal mores and law are prevented that from happening to a great decree, the degree some of the pioneering things that come and trail blazed other than what was mentioned regarding her, her attitudes and wanting to liberalise things like sex workers. Chanel has mentioned all those things and [00:34:00] the liquor liberalisation and and so on and so forth. But, um, it started a conversation. Carol de Winter, um, ended up in court. She was one of our early, um uh, sex changes. Um, the misdemeanour that she was in trouble with. And I think Roy Stacey probably, um um um uh was the one that defended her, as did a lot of Carmen's, uh, particular and peculiar cases that appeared before the law because the law had no way of dealing [00:34:30] with that kind of sex change anyhow. And through the process of, uh, of that law was amended and changed little by little to accommodate what they saw as this new phenomena of transgender and reassignment. And what do they mean, Women? Because under the law, uh, those of us who are trans women were legally male, and that was difficult in all sorts of ways. I can tell you we would go to the [00:35:00] Dole office to try and sign up for the unemployment benefit we wouldn't be granted because we'd be told to go and be the men we were and get out there and have a job. I've told this numerous times in various interviews and et cetera, And, um, it was a dehumanising thing to have happen, and we were left with extraordinarily little choice of where we were to exist in society. So with the likes of Carmen and Jackie and Chrissie and that Who were our pillars? Absolutely. [00:35:30] They were, um, along with their own contemporaries. We can't forget. Oh, I'm not gonna start rattling off the names. I'm bound to forget some. But gypsy, you know, all the ones I mentioned, you know, all of them, Um, and a little bit like, um, pose. I don't know if anyone's seen pose yet like that. We did have sort of houses. There was shell and street. There was Phyllis Monroe. Um, there was Duncan Terrace. There was a street with Carroll and all of them. There were various houses around [00:36:00] where we newbies who came along could be taken in. Thank God I never ended up at shells. And, um and, um but and all of those and lots, lots of lots of ones started out, Um, their young trans lives, as we were in those days, uh, being, um nurtured, if you could call it that. Hardened up a little bit, actually, to the scene on the street that we were about to enter into. We all dived into an abyss that we [00:36:30] didn't really understand because we were compelled and convinced to be the people who we are. And when you're a transgender woman at least. Anyhow, you can't hide it if we would address and be who we are. It was blatantly obvious in the street, of course. Carmen punched it through the roof like a galleon sailing down Cuba Mall and her via Lucas red and gold splotched gowns, her cavernous chest exposed to all [00:37:00] and on occasions when it suited her Go and photo bomb one and just drop it below the tips. And there she'd be. And um, hey, hey, that's what she would do. She did that with the governor general out of the Trentham races one year and just at the right moment, as the photographer is about to tell you, there she is and she pops them out. She must have kept the truth newspaper going for a decade, at least because of her notorious but wonderful personality. Her sense of man to [00:37:30] she was a person whose warmth of character was infectious upon any New Zealander that came across her. When you get ordinary, straight New Zealanders sort of saying, Oh, when we were in Wellington, we've got to go to the coffee lounge or at least drive down Vivian Street to see the beautiful exotica that wandered up and down the street, The colour that help to give the Cuba Quarter and and and Vivian Street and all of that. Um, it's bohemian feel. It's sort of, you know, anti-establishment and all of that kind [00:38:00] of thing. It was a wonderful period. Um, for better or for worse. And in the Wellington nightlife scene and the nightclubs, you know, I'd start off at the busy bee, you know, town at the Royal Oak Hotel and the tavern bar and the bistro and et cetera. And all of that, uh, the bistro would be full of all the seamen and the Trans and the prostitutes. And it was quite a sort of an eclectic mix in there. When the pub shut at 10 o'clock at night, we all pour out. And, um, and and those of [00:38:30] us would start to wander up Vivian Street, uh, to Vivian Street, where some of us worked at the club. Exotic the purple onion, the hole in the wall. Um, there was a whole culture that was there. Chanel touched on a very important point. A safe haven for us to be who we are, and Carmen provided that with her early coffee lounge. Down further down. Uh um, Vivian Street right next door to the Salvation Army. Citadelle, of course. Do you remember [00:39:00] that? And, of course, Uh uh, through car, and I got my first client. And, um, always used to wonder how Carmen could walk in the front door of the coffee lounge and the kitchen didn't really have an exit out the back. But all of a sudden, Carmen would have disappeared. And it wasn't until she gave me my first client. Ah, that the secret was revealed because, as carmen always used to say, I think she mentions it in the in the Georgia girl do. It was tea and tiny downstairs and dessert upstairs, [00:39:30] and each of the rooms that she had up there had a different theme. There was an Egyptian theme, and she was famous for having a coffin up there and all of that sort of thing. It wasn't unknown for Carmen to hang out the front window upstairs of her, um, apartment up there. And, of course, um, she'd be doing her, uh what would you call it? Uh, hawking, um, out onto the street hair tits out and all of that while she's being, um, servicing [00:40:00] from behind, if you understand what what? I mean, um uh, So the secret was that there was an alleyway down beside the coffee lounge and a doorway entrance to go upstairs to that. But also, there was an internal door, uh, concealed by a huge tapestry, Uh, that Carmen could have hanging on the wall. And, of course, you just roll back the tapestry. And while a client went outside into the outside entrance, uh, the girl, uh, would nip him through the store and be there to open the [00:40:30] outside door upstairs to the and, um and all of that. And so that's how those funny little things were not unlike what they used to do with the whiskey. Who remembers Wilson's whiskey at the Evergreen? Oh, bloody gut rock. That was, uh, Or maybe it was the home brew from it probably was a bit of both evergreen, um, cosy in the front part had the bay window, which we all want to sit in because then you could [00:41:00] watch everyone out on the street and and keep an eye out. I can, in my mind's eye. Now I can see you know, Geraldine. Geraldine? She'd be going there under the table, wouldn't she? Remember, Girls, please validate me. And that's, um, you know, on all of this going on great, wonderful times, some amazing people and our elders at the time keep an eye out for us. But they could be firm, too. Um, [00:41:30] they had to help harden us up for the very tough life we did live a very tough life. Although you put the veneer of smile and I have to say drugs helped us along the way and booze and all of that kind of thing. But we were living in a quite cruel world then in comparison to now and our in that regard, um, gave us a platform and with encouragement from the likes of Glenda who were symbols of authority. I guess in those days, and we had very cynical [00:42:00] view of authority, particularly police. But that has changed over the years. And we have been able to make use of our talents. We have been able to go way beyond just being scrubbers street queens, and we have been able to achieve an all echelons of our society and life. And you know what the great thing about that is is that we have a contribution to make, and we have now been given the opportunity to make [00:42:30] it and the liberation for us. I mean, I'm I'm looking at Karen over here and to think that she's excelled well in her area of working and, um, the food industry at pack and save to management levels and, uh, very well respected in that Chanel. I understand you're about to go and do some university stuff and and and all of that, which is which is wonderful. But what you've been doing to date has been fantastic. When we did the Prostitution Reform Act, this was another legacy of Carmen who planted the seed [00:43:00] certainly back in 77 when she ran for the mayoralty. Um, she wasn't successful, but boy, she did it for the publicity. Anyhow, she said, uh, she wouldn't have had a clue what to do. If she'd become a male, she'd be able to cut the ribbons and do the ceremonial. But the actual work that needs to be done, she might have had difficulty with, uh but nonetheless, and I do have a slight cynicism about why Bob Jones back someone like her. Um uh, to run for males Who? But the visibility that was important. And she made [00:43:30] it. You know, you could look at that and say, Well, OK, as a citizen, anyone can run for these positions and she's just proved the point. And she was much beloved. She has, in my view, Carmen and Chrissy as well. But Carmen, of course, stole the limelight in many ways because the media warmed her, such as it was in those days. Um, but she set a standard that we all live by. Um, and most people are very [00:44:00] endeared to her and have little to say against Carmen. She's part of our folklore in New Zealand. Now she's legendary, and, um, she'll always be remembered. She fits into that slot of people like a Barry Crump. You know, that kind of Kiwi icon that's there and Carmen will always be that Chrissy and everybody else vitally important as well. Of course, I might never have been able to do what I did. I never thought I'd be going into politics, but, [00:44:30] you know, you know, you just dive into these things and have a go, and it all turned out. And so for me personally, part of what I felt committed that I had to do was to conduct myself with dignity and integrity. So there was never a bad reflection on my trans community. You mightn't have always agreed with things might have said and done. Uh, but the fact that I did it with dignity and integrity is to honour all of those who have gone before us, whose shoulders I definitely stand on. And now you're [00:45:00] gonna stand on mine and those of us of my generation now to take it to punch it even further till we get what is equality. So I'll conclude I could carry on forever. I better come along to the story night, too. Now, you know, to tell a few stories, I, um you know, to tell a few stories of it, um, grateful is not enough, um, to say thank you, Uh, to all of those of Carmen's generation [00:45:30] who went through tougher times than we did who broke down the barriers a little bit so that some of us could come along and tear them down even further um, that is our obligation, I believe, um, as the next generation. And now some of us who are of an age where really we should shut our mouths and stand back a bit and let these young activists get on with it. I I just got someone needs to so it shut sometimes. But, you know, we've got a challenge sometimes the debate [00:46:00] that, uh, that begins, uh, and people who are particularly passionate about a student and it gives them an opportunity to anchor their debate and to anchor it, There's nothing to be afraid of to have robust debate, particularly at the moment around transgender issues, which are, you know, there's now 30 odd definitions of transgender, whereas before it was confined down to about five. So that's how much the world has changed in New Zealand. And we've been leaders. [00:46:30] We have all each and every one of us. It's not just those of us that make the headlines, um, from time to time, we get to do the right things. Um, I'm grateful. I don't know if I'd be the person I am today, and I don't know if I'd been able to advocate on things like prostitution reform when the opportunity came up and I happened to find myself in Parliament at that time. And along with Tim Barnett and Catherine Healey, et cetera, um worked and lobbied hard on a very controversial issue. Um, [00:47:00] but the sky has not fallen and life has been made better. And New Zealand came to accept at the end of the day, um that this was a more realistic way of dealing with an issue like prostitution because it was easily swept under under the carpet and all sorts of horrors happened for those who work in the industry when that is what happens. So we brought it out into the light to give it some disinfectant if you like, And we gave it some regulation for occupational health and safety reasons all the kinds of things [00:47:30] that Carmen advocated way back then. So, in conclusion, everybody thank you for attending tonight again. Compliments to the New Zealand portrait gallery, uh, for mounting this, um, exhibition, and particularly again to thank Chanel and her co-creator for bringing it all together. You have gifted us a tonne. Oh, ladies and gentleman Georgina Baer. [00:48:00] I just got one more speaker I'd like to bring up. And it's a fellow artist and contributor here for New Zealand. Portrait Gully. Uh, gallery at Ricky. Would you like to come and say a few wisdom? Kill it. Uh, [00:48:30] [00:49:00] so cure to everyone. Um Who? I'm pretty speechless. Um, I'm incredibly overwhelmed by what has happened tonight. Um, first of all, I would love to thank the New Zealand Portrait Gallery, uh, especially, um, Tale and Georgie for their contribution and their hard work to make this all happen. And especially, uh, [00:49:30] Chanel, um who I look up to and all of our of the past and present. I speak today is one of the, um who lives on in this day and age. And when I was called, um, to be a part of this project, um, really I I wasn't sure what to say. It was it was such a a huge honour, um, to to be a part of this and [00:50:00] in terms of the the where I stood at, I never had the honour of meeting our great leaders and the ones that that made this all possible for myself and others to walk the streets today without feeling the weight come down on us as in the past decades that they fought so hard for to achieve. And another thing too when I see my in front of everyone, as you all know, represents your genealogy, [00:50:30] the land you come from and your ancestors and who you are and to Maori, your your identity, your means everything to you to who you are. And for us to be who we are and who we need to be and who we know we are as a key fundamental to that. Our ancestors have suffered greatly and have fought too for now, for us to stand on our land and to be who we are today and all aspects of life. And so to be [00:51:00] asked to to dedicate, um what I knew or who what I have to this project was quite overwhelming. And so, being going to the te Papa to to view the collection of Chrissy's work, um was very, very much a lot to take in because not only I was looking at something incredibly precious to our society. I was looking at also at my [00:51:30] and the very people who helped me stand where I AM today and I could say that for the today who are carrying on their work and still fighting today for our rights but more so accessibility to what we need to have access to today in terms of health care and mental health, which is also a very big topic still running today. And without that and without them, I do not think myself and everyone who comes later would [00:52:00] be here today or many of us will not be here today through the struggle that they have fought for and in terms of my commitment to this, um my myself as an artist, um, and I come from a line of artists, um, the 27th generation of my family stretching back all the way to our in that time, which my father has bestowed on me. Use my knowledge and also my my essence and passion for what [00:52:30] I love, but also to tell our story of the whole event and our ancestors. So the piece I dedicated to the NZ portrait gallery and to and so all of our, um is called, which is the standing heartbeat or standing post of a A is built of your ancestors. When you walk into a you are walking inside the eponymous ancestor of the area and it is your ancestors, your [00:53:00] who give you the strength to survive today. And so when I look back to our and our in those times who struggled, I also think of my S them as my ancestors and also our ancestors of the past who went through the same hardships. And I always acknowledge them and thank them for what they have fought for for us today. And so the painting I dedicated is everything I have experienced, but not just that. The stories I have [00:53:30] heard in the I have spent time with Amalgamated into one, and the style I chose is the style of a pope, because a poet symbolises your ancestors and the shoulders that you stand on because they are the ones that have built your foundation. They are the ones that have brought you into this world, and they are the ones that will always be with you through now and the afterlife and forever until you join them. And so the the the [00:54:00] level of the painting I created goes into three levels. The first level at the bottom, it's called was a prophecy given by a that lived in in 17 66 called and he prophesized a long, long night was to come ahead 17 69. The arrival of the Endeavour and also the first European contact [00:54:30] happened, and from then on, much of much struggle became to come in, especially within our own identity. Our identity was targeted the most, and what came with that too was as well that was affected by that tremendously. And so the bottom part of the painting represents that the effects of the missionaries arriving, but also the establishments of government and colonialism which theorised who we are and to make it normal in society [00:55:00] or to make give the impression in society of who we are is wrong or not appropriate for the time, but which our ancestors fought hard for to reclaim. The second level is based on that time within the 20th century of our leaders going becoming who they are still holding on to that, knowing that they, uh, they know who they are and fighting for that, and so therefore throughout, through the presence of being visible [00:55:30] and also striving to achieve, um, the rights for everyone and to fight for it came into being, and that leads to the top pope. So the middle is called, and I can relate to all of our across across the Pacific. All have a name for our society and also a place for our people. So coming to Maori, here is the word, and that's what the middle part is named after. The top part is called [00:56:00] means to uplift, and that is at the top is the result of what we have fought for, where the figure is standing proud, performing a and the that expression shows our mana and our prestige, and one of it is attained and has been given to. And with that comes victory, but not also that it comes to Reg. Gather one's strength and to pass on to the next generation and the next. Throughout my lifetime, I've [00:56:30] seen more change in the past decade than I've seen throughout the history of New Zealand, especially with what I've looked for the people I've talked to and what I've seen. And so, looking at everything today and what we have today, it's incredible how far we've come. And I have the utmost confidence that my generation, and also the generation after me, will continue to bring bring us higher and higher into that realm. [00:57:00] And so, without further ado, I would like to end. That is that the top part is where we are now, and there's still plenty more to go. However, we are achieving much more process and a much shorter amount of time. And I've seen that happen quite rapidly, which I'm very proud of. So I would like to thank all our leaders of the past. I would like to thank all our leaders today. And I also like to thank our who are leading the movement to bring [00:57:30] to the level where it once was with our ancestors. Thank you. Fantastic. Well, uh, my part of the night is just about over, but I've I've got to, uh, just a few more words, and that is looking around this exhibition, and, um, I it takes me back to, um, the occasion of Carmen's 70th birthday [00:58:00] party, and we threw a fantastic birthday party for her down at the boat shed. What? We didn't tell Carmen it was going to be your birthday party and a celebrity roast. So we managed to, uh all the girls came from Auckland to came down. All the girls from the past at the coffee lounge arrived. It was a fantastic night, but we also managed to track down two of the original police officers that did the arresting of Carmen. Every time she got busted for alcohol, we invited her to come and say a few words. We also managed to make them pay for [00:58:30] their own tickets and their fares. So we got her money back on that night. They presented her with that lilac policeman's helmet with the, uh, pink feather boa. So to see that on display tonight is absolutely fantastic. Certainly brings back the memories for me. Um, all I want to say now is please talk to your friends. Talk to everybody about this exhibition. Talk to, uh, the rest of our younger transgender community, make them come down here and see this [00:59:00] exhibition. Because if it wasn't for Carmen and those girls, I firmly believe we would not be not just the transgender community, but the LGBT community as well. They opened the door for us. They gave us a life as well. So, uh, on that note, ladies and gentlemen, um, I'm going to finish up. I'm gonna hand you back to, uh, for a and then I do believe there's gonna be some, uh, food served and, uh, light refreshments. Please spread the word about this exhibition. [00:59:30] He [01:00:00] [01:00:30] Yeah, time [01:01:00] return [01:01:30] to go. [01:02:00] [01:02:30] Um um.

IRN: 2088
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TITLE: Poutokomanawa: The Carmen Rupe Generation - interviews
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VOICES: Chanel Hati; Georgie Keyse; Kay'la Riarn; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Talei Langley; Will Hansen
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bamboo Bar; Carmen Rupe; Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Chanel Hati; Chrissy Witoko; Chrissy Witoko Memorial Trust; Dana de Milo; Georgie Keyse; Georgina Beyer; Gypsy (Wellington); Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Jack Trolove; Jacquie Grant; Jennifer Edwards; Kay'la Riarn; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Marilyn Monroe; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand Portrait Gallery; Nicolette Page; Pound nightclub; Poutokomanawa: The Carmen Rupe Generation (exhibition, 2019); Prostitution Reform Act (2003); Sam Orchard; Scott Kennedy; Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar; Sydney; Talei Langley; Taupuruariki Brightwell; The Balcony / Le Balcon; Tutankhamun; Wellington; Will Hansen; artist; arts; collage; community; community response; community support; conservative; criminalisation; exhibition; friends; happiness; helmet; history; homosexual law reform; identity; language; law; marae; marriage equality; photography; police; pou; poutokomanawa; research; safe sex; safe space; sex work; taonga; trans; transexual; transgender; visual arts
DATE: 20 September 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: New Zealand Portrait Gallery, Shed 11/60 Lady Elizabeth Lane, Pipitea, Wellington
CONTEXT: Interviews with people at the opening of the exhibition Poutokomanawa: The Carmen Rupe Generation. The exhibition runs from 20 September - 15 December 2019 at the New Zealand Portrait Gallery in Wellington.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, hi. I'm Tale Langley. Um, I'm the registrar at the New Zealand Portrait Gallery, and we're in the, um, mana exhibition that is opening this evening and tell me about the exhibition. The gallery acquired a portrait of, um, Carmen Rue from an artist by the name of Nicollette Page. And, um, we thought we needed to have an exhibition to celebrate, um, receiving this portrait. So we [00:00:30] got in touch with the transgender community to find out what kind of exhibition they wanted. Um, and we ended up with, um, Chanel and Ari Brightwell helping us out with the exhibition, and they came up with this concept of Manu. So they wanted the exhibition to be, um, a celebration of, um, transgender, who were kind of the foundation. The foundation of their definitely. And so what? What were your [00:01:00] roles? Um, I came on after the kind of the concept had been decided on, and I had met with, and I came in then and started helping out. So I've just been support and yeah, helping things happen, research as well. So I've done quite a bit of research. So listening to a lot of the interviews with um, Donna And digging into stuff about Carmen and Chrissie and Georgina as well as some of the contemporary stuff that's going on. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess [00:01:30] we've considered that, um, Chanel and Ari have been leading the direction of the exhibition, and we've been doing the research and the work to support it to happen. So can you describe, uh, some of the objects and items in the exhibition? So, um, this is our wall of Carmen. Um, And in this carmen section, we have, um, a number of things that came from, uh, te Papa. Papa has a really interesting collection [00:02:00] of Carmen's, um, memorabilia. I guess it would be, um, so we have This is really interesting here, which is my We've titled it my last male photograph. Um, because that's what Carmen had titled it. Um, And when she donated, um, her stuff to the museum, she wrote stories on the backs of them of what they were. So everything that te papa has from Carmen is covered in her writing, which is kind of amazing. Um, and we really liked this [00:02:30] object originally when we first started talking about it, we talked about displaying it, um, face in words. So with just the back and the story from Carmen showing, um, but then we had more discussions with various people in the community, and they said, no. She's given it to the museum, um, and wanted it to be told as part of her story. So, um, we have it displayed face out. But also, we've got, um, an image of the back there, which, um, is kind of a an interesting [00:03:00] kind of almost a kind of a, um, statement on the back. And then this very large portrait. Why is this portrait so significant? Well, we we acquired the portrait because Carmen is significant. Um, she's a bold and colourful local character with lots of great stories to tell. And for that us that's really key is that we can use this portrait to tell all sorts of stories. Yeah, and this portrait is going into the permanent collections. That's right. She's, [00:03:30] um, the first transgender portrait in our collection. Um, so she gives us some important diversity. Our collection is, um, we don't have a budget to collect, so it's very opportunistic. So it's really nice to have something so exciting coming into the collection, and it's interesting. You say, um, transgender, because I've heard interviews where Carmen identifies as transsexual and I'm interested in how language has changed over time. How have you navigated that [00:04:00] in the exhibition? That's something that I've noticed a lot in doing this exhibition being of a younger generation in the way that some of the older generation talk is completely different to what I'm used to. So there is a bit of navigating what is correct and what isn't, Um, when in writing the labels, everything went through Chanel, she looked over everything. She actually wrote a great deal of the the labels that are in the exhibition. So that meant that she was making sure that things were OK, according to her, [00:04:30] and she is close to that generation. So that's one of the ways that we tried to make sure that it was all good in that way. It's definitely something that we noticed, um, working on the exhibition, that there's really big differences in how the older generation talk about themselves and think about themselves as well. Think about their identity to, um, somebody younger, like Ari who, um, came in saying I identify as a woman, you know, right at the start. Um, yeah, it's a little more hazy, I think, with some of the older [00:05:00] generation, can you talk about, um, the community response to this? So far So it hasn't opened yet. But I mean, in in doing the research and and getting the objects and and what's the community response been like, uh, it's been very positive and very supportive. Um, kind of almost over too much. Yeah. Everybody wants to get involved, which is wonderful, actually, for us because, um, that's also part of the attraction of this, um, particular portrait. And doing this show was making connections [00:05:30] with a new community. I think everybody that we've talked to is really leaned into being part of it as well. She now especially has been phenomenal. You know, this is so far out of what she usually does, and she's really leaned into doing it. The support, the support she's had, even from her employer, who's the prostitutes collective, um, has been amazing as well. They've allowed her time to come and, um, work on this and be part of things and helped her out with, um Yeah, just everything that they could. So, yeah, [00:06:00] and I'm really pleased with how much of her input has come through in the final product as well. I think that's really great to see. Tell me about, uh, these here from OK, this one. This one's a little bit contentious, actually. Um, so te papa didn't have a lot of information about what this particular, um, thing is, it's a bust of common. Um, Papa have two of these, and I know from photographs that Carmen had [00:06:30] more than two of them. She had, um quite a number of kind of Egyptian themed, um, things. And, um, so this one, I spoke to a few people, and I spoke to Jackie Grant, and she said to me that this one actually came from her cafe originally, um, which was themed and that she had used this bust to paint a mural of in her cafe. Um, but we also know that Carmen herself had several [00:07:00] Egyptian themed cafes. So, um, it could also have come from one of those. Yeah, and above that, we have a pedestrian crossing light. I was Come on it. Yeah, I borrowed from the council which was, um, quite fun talking to them about that. Their traffic guy, um, they also commented to us that they've sent one of these off to a museum in UK. Um, just recently for, um, some sort of display, which is kind of interesting. [00:07:30] And the wall is just full of portraits and photographs. Where did they all come from? Um, uh, there's quite a few of them have come from Scott and Mouse Cocktail Bar, Um, and then Karen Timms, who had a lot of Donna's photos. So she's lent us a great deal of stuff to stick up there as well. Um, and then some of it's to Papa. This is really just a collection from a lot of places. Yeah, Yeah, we kind of put a call out, and we're like, if anyone's got anything, let us know. Yeah, and we also tried [00:08:00] to pick things that we could see in in our portrait. Um, so the portrait that we've got here shows um, Carmen in her apartment in Sydney, with all of her photographs and artefacts, kind of around her in her kind of eclectic, um, aesthetic. And so we wanted to kind of have that coming out of the painting and onto the wall. And also, we've tried to, um, track down some of the items that are actually in the painting and have them here in person. So? So this exhibition is way [00:08:30] more than Carmen. It's It's a whole generation here. Yeah, absolutely. It's way more than Carmen. Um, the the concept was that Carmen is one of the, um, kind of elders of the community who, um, has allowed things to progress to where they are now who held up the community. And so we picked other individuals who also had, um, a similarly influential role, um, in supporting the community in activism or in providing employment in safe places for people. [00:09:00] What about these amazing photo montages from we, um yeah. So te papa has a big collection of these. I think there's somewhere around there's got to be at least 20 of them. We we went over to Papa, um, and had a look through all of them. And we've selected just a tiny handful of them, um, which, um, cover a number of eras and we tried to pick ones that were representative of, um, various eras. [00:09:30] Um and also ones that, um, showed the individuals that were profiling in the show. Um, but they're kind of amazing artefacts of their time. They're kind of a where's where's Waldo of of, um of all the people in the community at the time And, um, events at the time. And yeah, um, also a lot of the locations the the coffee bars and the and the clubs. And speaking of artefacts, is that a pink policeman's head? I see. Yeah, that's [00:10:00] got to be one of the favourite, um, items of the exhibition. So that was the helmet that was gifted to Carmen on her. Was it her 70th birthday? Um, by two policemen that had previously arrested her. So they came. I believe they came up from Christchurch, um, to go to her party and present her with this beautifully decorated helmet as kind of a gesture of reconciliation. And it's it's also got a really interesting inscription in the inside, I guess. Also, in that case, um, is a Carmen [00:10:30] condom packet. Um, with her portrait on it, um, that was given out. I gather at the 70th party. Um, and it has an in a sort of a quote on the inside saying that Carmen credits her long and happy life to safe sex, which is kind of wonderful. So so far we've talked about some of the historic, but but also this contemporary works here as well. Yeah, yeah. So we've got works from Sam Orchard. Uh, Jack Love and [00:11:00] A A created a piece, especially for the exhibition. She was part of coming up with the theme, and her work represents that theme. Um, and Sam talks about sort of 10 years of his experience working with the trans community and what changes still need to happen and what needs to go forward. And I think that's a nice touch to the show is saying, Look how far things have come. But look how far we still need to go and there's a There's a positive note to the what's happened. But then a nice a nice sort of call [00:11:30] to action, I guess. Yeah, in putting this exhibition together, what personally have you got out of it? Um, it's been a really interesting and different exhibition for me to work on, um, in terms of working with some of the artefacts and working with the community and a really nice and supportive community to work with. Everyone's been so lovely. And, you know, I've never had so many Xs at the end of ticks from people that I've never even met. It's wonderful. It's been really nice. Yeah, yeah, I agree. I've met. [00:12:00] I've met some amazing people and I, who I now consider to be good friends, actually. So it's been really great and great for the gallery to connect with a new community. Um and yeah, bring more people in. Alright. As we're walking in the as we walk in the doors, I'm very excited. Um, I love Carmen. From what I've researched and read about her, Um, I really like how the wall is decorated. That looks kind of like Carmen's space [00:12:30] and that it's all, like, cool all the photos. Oh, they're so lovely. Oh, they really I love that. There's collages like Chris collages and little news play for clippings. So can you recognise anyone? Will? Yeah. Uh, Georgina baa Donna Demilo. Jennifer Edwards. Jackie Grant Gypsy. Uh, Chris, did I say her already? Oh, lots of familiar faces. [00:13:00] I wanna try and find Dianne and and and Chanel. I'm sure that they're in here somewhere. I don't know if I'd recognise a younger photo of them, though, but lots of lots of Donna and Carmen and Chrissy. That's cool. And what do you think about Carmen's new portrait? The portrait is amazing. I love how they've included all her background. Like all of the stuff that she had in the background, that's really cool. I love the the portrait of Marilyn Monroe. I saw, I think the the maybe the same postcard that is archived at the Lisbon and Gay Archives. And it was the first thing [00:13:30] I comments that I saw and I opened the box, and it was my first time in the archives. I opened the box and there's this little postcard of Marilyn Monroe and she's written over it. And then I turned it over and on the back she had a lipstick on it, so it was clearly quite special. So that's really cool. It's amazing. It's really cool. So will as an historian, uh, when you see all this these historic on the walls of the gallery, what? What does that make you feel? Ah, I feel real impressed and touched that it's [00:14:00] in a in A in a gallery because it's such important and fantastic history. That's not ever, really. It just not often enough at all. Um, celebrated. And it's so It's such a a vital piece of history and especially given that, like Trans people are so often deprived of their history and that that's such a big part of our oppression, I think, is the denial of our history. So to like, see it being celebrated and in such like, um, in such a detailed way as well, like, I really feel like they've captured a whole lot of facets of it that, um, wouldn't have been captured [00:14:30] if they just had, like, the paintings and a few professional photos. But they've got all the photos of them partying and stuff as well, which is so lovely and like snippets of of the news, prints and stuff. Yeah, I really feel like it all in all, Chris's colleges over there, too. Yeah, I think it's just amazing to see all the friendships laid out as well. Like the people in the photographs clearly love each other a lot, and they're having a lot of fun, and I think that's a really huge part of the story, is that sense of community and and friendship, and they're all living together and, you know, working together. And it's such a tight knit group and [00:15:00] the fact that they're all still friends today, right, is evident of that, too. So, yeah, I think it's really lovely. It's cool and amazing to see Carmen so big as well. I think right, like she's a big personality, so she should be painted big as well. And what about this, um, mask I didn't even know. Is that one of cars? Was it in one of her? Oh, it's in her coffee lounge, and it's a rather than a mask. That's really cool. It's cool to see pieces that would have actually been in a coffee lounge because I've not. There's not much footage or anything of it that I've seen. So that's cool to think that [00:15:30] there's a physical object that was in her her place and you would have seen these Chrissy we panels before you. Yeah, yeah, I've looked at them a lot on They're so beautiful. They're so beautiful. I think the way that Chrissy put them together is so lovely is that I think there's like a real like artistry to them, and I also think that it's like, really she was preserving history and in a way that it wouldn't have been preserved. Perhaps if it was just a bunch of photographs sitting in a stack. And it like, tells to put them together in collage [00:16:00] and tells its own story that the photograph alone doesn't do as well, Right? So that's really lovely. Now what is it like seeing these photographic colleges from the sixties and seventies of of our communities and knowing that there are a whole lot of diverse people coming before us? I just think it's so important. I just feel like for me, this kind of trans history is really what informs my identity. I don't think that II I can't imagine being Trans and not knowing [00:16:30] about these things. I think it's so important because it makes me feel less isolated and it makes me feel like I have a sense of importance because they have a sense of history, and even though I'm not related to any of these people, I'm related to them. I suppose, in the broader sense of, uh, I stand on their shoulders and they're the ones who pave the path for me and sort of see them looking all so beautiful and and and just so happy and joyful is like a really affirming, especially because there's that whole stereotype that back in the day, if you were Trans, you were, you know, locked up or you [00:17:00] were sick and perverted and sad all the time and just crying all the time. And like, obviously that's so not true from these photos, right? So that's a really cool, affirming thing to to see. I think now one of the things over here is a pink policeman's hat, which was given to Carmen from the police officers who used to arrest her. I've seen this A. It's really interesting, especially. It's really interesting, given the, um, obviously the dynamic with the police. Um, I don't know. I have such complex feelings [00:17:30] about our history with the police, and I think that a lot of like, obviously, while there was a lot of friendliness and like, even like like deep friendship between, um women like Carmen and the police, I do still, I am still super critical of the prison industrial complex and all of it all that it represents, regardless of how pink and pretty it looks in in in this. But it's definitely something that I don't know. It's something that I need to think about more, I think, and something that I don't quite understand, but that I want to try and understand, because it's an important part of of the history. [00:18:00] What I find really interesting is that you had two groups of people all Carmen and the police officers, um, almost completely different ends of the spectrum. And yet at the end of their lives or close to the end of their lives, they they actually came together. That's a lovely kind of human story. Yeah, yeah, I think that it's, um, nice that they're able to look past differences. And maybe that the police realised that actually what they were doing, like imprisoning all these queens for doing nothing, you know, criminal. [00:18:30] I mean, obviously it was criminalised, but it it's not, it's not. They weren't doing anything bad. They weren't hurting anyone, is what I'm trying to say. So hopefully I guess I like to think of that as a gesture of someone who realised that, actually, maybe any of that animosity wasn't was misguided. Yeah. What do you think people will will take away from this exhibition? I don't know. I mean, I feel so overwhelmed. I've only stood in here for, like, what, five minutes? I hope that people take away that we have a really important history that just like [00:19:00] that, our history is just as profound as anyone else's history. And that, like our history, is really fun. And actually, the fun in itself is profound and important, you know, like our history doesn't have to necessarily be serious and tragic for it to be something that's important and worth remembering. I hope that people come away with a sense that they see that they, like, especially younger people like me, come away with a sense that they see how vibrant and awesome and, uh, wonderful our past really is. And it's important. It's [00:19:30] just so important. And it's so important for us younger generations to see our history and and recognise that we have a place in our history, Um, that we're not some kind of crazy new phenomenon, um, and that we still continue to fight today for what they fought for us and all the incredible things they did for us back then. Ah, yeah. Tonight we're down at the, uh, New Zealand portrait galley, and we're here for the opening of, uh, which is the, uh, car, uh, car generation. It's fantastic [00:20:00] exhibition. It's gonna be amazing. We looked around. What I've seen on the wall is outstanding. And it's a good way to remember the old days lost but not forgotten. It's fantastic. And so you would have known a lot of those people on the wall. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I think they're the ones that made us street wise. I mean, they were our leaders When you look back in the day, Carmen was absolutely fantastic and car in the old Carmen's Coffee lounge, a great place that we used to all frequent on many, many occasions. And, of course, when she opened up the balcony, we all sort of shot up there as well. Great place to be great place to be for younger generations who who [00:20:30] maybe don't have a sense of what it was like back in the sixties and seventies. Can you paint a picture of of Of what it was like for rainbow communities. Uh, it was a lot tougher then. I think, you know, in the in the in the old days, we didn't have the, uh, relaxed and and legal lifestyle that we certainly have now. And it was certainly a, uh, an era where you had to, uh, watch your back, so to speak. And I think that when we look back on those days, um, the community back then was a lot closer. There was more brother and sisterhood there. Everybody looked after each other. Um, I think we've lost that today. And I really believe [00:21:00] that, uh, a lot of the younger generation perhaps need to come and have a look at this exhibition and and go back in time and learned about their and learn about their history and their culture because it's where we all started. And if it wasn't for Carmen, we wouldn't be where we are today. One of the things. One of the lovely things I saw, um, just looking at the exhibition was people making connections between all the people on the wall and just that that interconnectedness. Oh, it's fantastic. It's amazing. You looking up there myself, and people are saying, Oh, my God, There you are. And there you are over there. And that's the sort of thing it was. [00:21:30] And and and for people like Chrissy and Carmen to put these, um, uh, montages together is absolutely fantastic. It's it's captured our history, And it's something that we should never, ever lose sight of is our history. I'm Chanel Chanel, and we're here at the Portrait Gallery. And we're here to, um, honour Carmen and other trans women, um, who have contributed to our community. And, um, we're going to, uh, remember [00:22:00] all those good things that they did The safe spaces they provided, um, the the the the How they paved the way for, for for the future generation. Now, you are very influential in creating this space and this exhibition. Um, can you describe it for me? It's sort of to me, it's a It's a It's a kind of a like a time capsule. You know, it captures the community over the last 40 years, Um, [00:22:30] a snapshot in time, that's what That that's basically what it is. And so both, um, Kayla and Chanel. I mean, you know a lot of these people in the images that are being seen tonight. How does it make you feel when you when you see these people on the wall nostalgic? Yeah, believe that. Like, even though we came a little bit after coming with her, we were actually part of that kind of generation changeover. [00:23:00] And now to be in our age and to look back at all of us, it's just Yeah, you're looking at a picture. You go remember when we used to, You know, those kind of things. It's good. What about you? Well, we we we live in a generation that saw those changes that are come and come and only dreamed of at a time when, uh, things were very conservative views, rest restrictive laws. She rekindled the debate. [00:23:30] Um, and and those issues, um, even at the risk of, uh, her getting into trouble. And, uh, but she was She was what she was. These issues needed to be brought to the forefront, and and and she raised them. And, um, because she raised them it it it brought it to the attention of the public, a very conservative, um, public view. But As the years went by a conservative, their conservative stance on on issues like gay rights and sex work became a more liberal view. [00:24:00] And and it is you can see that today with the homosexual law, reform, marriage, equality and the decriminalisation of sex work. So if Carmen was to look down on us tonight, what do you think she would be thinking? Hard to say that what? That lady Carmen. But I'm sure she would be quite pleased. And, you know, to see how the generation that followed her have progressed and continue what she started. Basically, [00:24:30] she would be she she she she would be very happy. I think she would be. She would be crying because, um, you know, she saw some changes in her time. And, um, I think, um, she would be very pleased and she's not here. So we need to keep telling those stories to keep the community alive. Um, and she's a very important part of that story. Can you tell me a wee bit about the title of this exhibition? Ok, so the exhibition, [00:25:00] uh, the concept for the exhibition is man and of course, is the is the ridge pole in the middle of that that supports the house. In Maori, we use metaphors like you can say when? When? When A when a elder dies, a has fallen in the forest. So with we use that because we used, uh, we we we saw car and Chris and all these ones that contributed to our community as the Po. Or if you translate it into English, the pillars of our community. [00:25:30] So and the is basically Carmen and Chrissie provided safe spaces, and these are spaces where we gather like they do on because we were family. So I thought the would be appropriate for as as as the title, for for this, um, exhibition. Yeah, so Carmen features very heavily in this exhibition, but also, um, there are a whole range of other, um, Wellington icons. [00:26:00] Can you Can you just name them for me? Jackie Grant, for instance, she was around when Carmen Carmen was, um, was first, um, starting her business. And Jackie Jackie was around then And, um, she still continues to to do her work. She's been, um, a member of the Human Rights Committee, and she's also a founding member of the Memorial Trust. We have, uh, Georgina Baer, and we all know her story. So, um, she's she's she's very important, [00:26:30] Chris. She provided a safe space when Carmen left New Zealand. So that followed on. So So So they kind of took over from one another. And Carmen paved the way for for for the next generation to enter political spaces and all these good things they did. Donna de Milo, Donna de Milo. She was lovely. They all contributed in their own way. And for me, particularly with Donna, is sometimes it's not so much what you do. It's your presence that speaks for itself. [00:27:00] You're talking about safe spaces, and I wonder, where are the safe spaces today? Well, like when we come along and see, we've now got like the NC PC for us. Those that still work. This is a safe zone. But a majority of the places around Wellington, um, like certain clubs that save those for us, we, we, we, we we have to acknowledge that there are people like me and Scottie who have been who who [00:27:30] who who need to be acknowledged because they've been around just as long as as Chrissy and they've had several safe spaces. They've had the, um the bamboo, the pound, and they're still providing a safe space with the S and M. So they need to be, um, acknowledged because they're carrying on where where Chrissy left off, you know? And, you know, and I'm very, very proud of Mel and Scottie and they speak. They speak for our community as well, you know? And they they they they were loved by all these girls, [00:28:00] these older girls. Um, Mel? Yeah, because he he you know, he he goes back, too. So but he's still providing a safe space. Even today. One of the things I love about this exhibition is not only the, um, uh, historic and and photographs, but also the contemporary. There's there's some contemporary art as well. Can you tell me about that? Well, this, um well, she she she she has done a piece, Uh, the jack. He's, um he's [00:28:30] done a piece as well. And, um and and and it's all to do with, um uh, the exhibition A, uh, that she she paid to speaks about, um the, um the journey. The journey from from the The Times that the girls were arrested to to kind of like the freedom that people would experience today, thanks to changes in the law. Chanel just finally, What would you want people to take away from this exhibition? [00:29:00] What? How would you want them to feel at the end of this? Well, II, I want them to feel that, um, that that this community, these people that are featured in this community are people that stood up for for them and and and spoke for them and, uh, paved the way, paved the way for for for pave the way for a for a better world, for the for the next generation. You know, um, you know, the all the good things that we that that we enjoy [00:29:30] our freedoms we enjoy today are because of those that have gone before us, and they should be, and they should be honoured and continue to be honoured.

IRN: 1191
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/launch_of_the_touring_topp_twins_exhibition_2018.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004530
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089824
TITLE: Launch of the touring Topp Twins exhibition (2018)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Andy Lowe; Bill Macnaught; Hugh Karena; Jacinda Ardern; Jools Topp; Lynda Topp; Topp Twins
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1080 poison; 2010s; Andy Lowe; Aotearoa New Zealand; Arani Cuthbert; Bastion Point; Bill Macnaught; Charles, Prince of Wales; Clare Curran; Department of Internal Affairs; Diva Productions; Grant Robertson; Grant Smith; Green Party; He Tohu (National Library exhibition); Helen Clark; Homosexual Law Reform; Hugh Karena; Iain Lees-Galloway; Jacinda Ardern; Jools Topp; Lynda Topp; Member of Parliament; Michigan Womyn's Music Festival; Māori; National Library of New Zealand; National Party; New Zealand First; New Zealand Labour Party; Palmerston North; Parliament buildings; Phil Goff; Sian Torrington; Springbok rugby tour (1981); TM2025 (Te Manawa Museum of Art, Science and History); TVNZ (Television New Zealand); Te Manawa Museum; The Topp Twins: an exhibition for New Zealand; Topp Twins; Untouchable Girls (song); Waikato; Waikato Coalfields Museum; Wellington; Women's suffrage petition (1893); activism; anti-nuclear movement; audience; cancer; caravan; comedy; exhibition; farm; farming; homosexual law reform; land rights; lesbian; love; march; music; parents; performance; politics; singing; takatāpui; television; tolerance; trademe. co. nz; twitter. com; wahine toa; women
DATE: 26 March 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: National Library of New Zealand, 70 Molesworth Street, Thorndon, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the launch of the touring Topp Twins exhibition, held at the National Library of New Zealand in Wellington on Monday 26 March 2018. The exhibition runs from the 27 March 2018 - 22 September 2018. The original exhibition was shown at Te Manawa Museum in 2017 and was curated by Sian Torrington. A special thank you to the National Library for allowing us to record and share this event.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: [00:00:30] [00:01:00] [00:01:30] Uh uh [00:02:00] uh. [00:02:30] Good answer. [00:03:00] No. My distinguished guests. Ladies and gentlemen, it's a very great pleasure for me to welcome you all to the National Library of New Zealand tonight. My name is Bill McNatt. I'm the national librarian, and we're delighted to host the top twins and exhibition for New Zealand. A celebration [00:03:30] of Joe's and Linda Top's unique contribution to New Zealand's social, cultural and political landscape. The exhibition was developed by colleagues at Museum in Palmerston North, and we're proud to partner with them in bringing it to Wellington, the first stop on a national tour. It's my pleasure to acknowledge some of the many distinguished guests here tonight. First of all, our Prime Minister, right. Honourable Jacinda Ardern. [00:04:00] Welcome. Uh, the Honourable Grant Robertson. Uh, the honourable Clare Curran, I believe, is here. Uh, the Honourable Ian Lees. Galloway is here and special. Welcome back to former Prime Minister, the right honourable Helen Clark. I would also like to acknowledge those who have travelled from the man to be here tonight, including [00:04:30] Mayor of Palmerston North, Grant Smith. Welcome back. An exhibition celebrating the lives and work of two iconic Kiwi musicians and entertainers who have always pushed the boundaries seems very fitting this year. Not only are the top twins celebrating their 60th birthday, but 2018 also marks 100 and 25 years since thousands of New Zealand women pushed the boundaries [00:05:00] so that New Zealand became the first country in the world where women won the right to vote. And the 18 93 suffrage petition that they signed is right here at the National Library as part of the exhibition, which is open this evening for anyone who has not yet had the opportunity to go and visit. So the Top Twins exhibition is in good company. We're also pleased to add our own top twins collection [00:05:30] from the Alexander Turnbull Library to the exhibition that's travelled here from to Man. The library holds such archival gems as newspaper clippings, posters and photos donated by Diva Productions back in 2013, and you'll get to see some of this in the exhibition this evening. I'd also like to thank my Public Programmes Team for arranging this exhibition at the National Library and also for looking after us all this evening and speaking of looking after [00:06:00] us all, I do have a brief health and safety message to share in the event of an earthquake. Drop, cover and hold. Do not leave the building. Wait for national library staff to give further instructions. If there is an evacuation exit out of the main entrance, turn left, go down the stairs, cross the road and meet on the other side of a street for smaller emergencies. The toilets are located through [00:06:30] the door just there. And finally, if you are a Twitter, our exhibition hashtag is hashtag camp Mother, Thank you for being here this evening, and it's my pleasure now to introduce to Mana's chief executive, Andy Lowe, who will tell you more about the exhibition. Please welcome Andy. Yeah, [00:07:00] [00:07:30] [00:08:00] it's wonderful to be here tonight, representing to Manu Museum of Art, Science and History in the North. This is a really special occasion for us, the launch of the national tour of our exhibition, top twins and exhibition for New Zealand, and how better to launch it than in the presence of our prime minister and Helen Clark, who also happened to be a big top Twins fans. I'd like to acknowledge all our visitors from Palmerston North [00:08:30] tonight, including the mayor. Grant Smith, MP Ian Lees Galloway, Palmerston North City Councillors. Rachel Bowen, Manu Trust Board members and staff. Janet, Thank you. It's great that you've made the journey tonight. The much longer journey has been the creation of this top Twins exhibition story, which began back in 2010. Um, when I was working at the Waikato Museum, the nearby Huntley Coalfields [00:09:00] Museum was developing an exhibition about the top twins because that's the hometown or kind of close and asked us if we could help. Um, so long story short, there's still a nice, big, um, pink painting of the twins on the wall, Um, in Huntley that can be seen as you drive in. At that time, we talked about how good it would be to do an exhibition that toured the country and perhaps the world to celebrate these national treasures. The top twins. And so we talked about it again for the next few years, [00:09:30] and I started at in 2012, and with some driven people on the project Christelle Plimer, Leslie Fowler, Sean Torrington and many others. It finally happened the 1981 Springbok tour, anti nuclear protests homosexual law reform, Maori land rights in point. Jules and Linda stepped up to the mark often in front of these protests, then sang in concerts in the following days, raising funds to get those people who'd been arrested out of jail. Many of [00:10:00] us remember you on those marches you sang Good night, Irene for your mum. From the stage of the Michigan Women's Festival. My partner was there and she cried during protest marches to meeting Prince Charles and Lady Camila on TV and radio cassettes C, DS and YouTube. And now here. Well, it was in Palmerston North and now here in Wellington. Jules and Linda Camp Mother, Camp Leader, Ken and Ken, our much [00:10:30] loved rural girls, our untouchable girls who do a bit of music and a bit of horses. You rack us up, you touch our hearts and continue to help shape this nation. You've encouraged us to stand up, to have guts to stand together. You shared your story and through song with a joke or two and an excellent yodel. It's wonderful to see you again tonight. You need to be celebrated over and over. This project has had huge support throughout, not least at all. From George and Linda, the production agency Diva Productions, [00:11:00] Palmerston North City Council. Jude Benson, Now our team on the job, Olivia Co. And who got it here? It is going to to to a number of venues around New Zealand, creating and touring exhibitions around New Zealand is something to man has done for many years and does quite well. It'll be a really big part of our exciting future as we embark on a project we're calling TM 2025. Recently, the Palmerston North City Council gave us the green light to progress high level planning for this creation of the arts and cultural powerhouse [00:11:30] for, uh, Palmerston North for consideration as part of the long term plan to needs more up to date spaces in which to host its diverse communities and deliver world class experiences. So that's what we're working on right now. Finally, I'd like to thank Bill McNorton, his national library team, for hosting this exhibition, sharing this launch and recognising the potential of this show. We hope to see you all tonight and please tell your friends and family to come and see this exhibition. [00:12:00] Thanks very much, Andy. It has been a real pleasure working with your team from Mana. Ladies and gentlemen, please. Now, welcome our Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern. If anyone's wondering why [00:12:30] there's a seat on the stage that was thoughtfully provided for for me, But I continue to defy the odds by standing through my pregnancy. But I thank you very much. Um, for for the care and the invitation to be here is truly an honour, Bill. And I thank you and your team at the national Library for the role you have played in continuing to extend the tour of this wonderful, um, exhibition and Andy for the work that you and all of the, um uh, [00:13:00] team did, uh, to get it to the position it's in now. Um, absolutely fantastic. And thank you. Um, I see you have your local MP here, um, continuing to claim, uh, obviously alongside you and rightly so, um, some of the honours tonight and he is fiercely proud of his region, and we'll be fiercely proud of you. I know, too. Um, can I acknowledge the right honourable Helen Clark. Uh, and I have to say, Helen, when when I leave this role of 10 years later, [00:13:30] I still elicit a whoop from a crowd. I will feel very, very pleased You set the bar very, very high. And it's only fitting that you're here. Of course. Um, you're, um, present in the exhibition and obviously a part of this wonderful, um, story and the pride we feel in the top twins. I acknowledged, um, Grant Robertson. He's, uh, obviously the associate minister of arts. Uh, he's he was Oh, there we go. He's never quiet when he, uh, associate Minister of Arts, Obviously our Minister of finance and our local [00:14:00] MP. Um uh, So I like any excuse to be here. Basically. So, um, a pleasure to have him here, Um, as well. And finally, may grant, um, thank you for your ongoing support of, um What? We have touring now, too. But of course, most importantly, I want to acknowledge the top twins. Um, and I was so delighted to see this invitation come in and did not hesitate for a moment to say that I wanted to be here. Um, actually, I was thinking of the all of the reasons that these three main ones that I just wanted to reflect on quickly [00:14:30] because I'm now standing between you and this stage. Um, the first reason was because I grew up with you. Um uh, I can't, you know, Remember a time when I wasn't aware of who you were and what you represented, Uh, and how proud I felt whenever I saw someone reflecting back to me, The people I was growing up around, I grew up in Morrisville. Ken and Ken feel very familiar to me as characters. Um, but so do, um, Camp leader and camp mother. Possibly [00:15:00] because I saw myself and some of those I don't have a sequent onesie, um, to speak of, But there was something about those characters that just were truly kiwi and that no one else captured the way that you captured. And and, um, I think probably everyone feels that, um, in some way, the second reason was because that you were more than just, um, comedians. And you were more than, um, performers and artists. You were You were activists. And, of [00:15:30] course, growing up, I was always looking for those role models. Um, particularly role models like that who came from backgrounds like mine, where traditionally people didn't speak up. Always. Particularly not on issues like bastion point, uh, or on issues like nuclear, uh, anti the anti nuclear movement, or like, homosexual law reform. But that is what you did. And, uh, you did it with, um, humour and Grace. Uh, and you made your voice heard. And I have such an appreciation [00:16:00] for that. Obviously, it was in your blood, because I understand that you have, uh, aunts who are on the woman's suffrage petition. Um, Myrtle and Charlotte. I understand, uh, here already, um, listed on that petition. So that speaks obviously to your lineage, Um, as well. But my third reason for wanting to be here is because I have some of your stuff. Um, and by that, I don't mean albums. I mean, I have your caravan, I should add. I bought it through totally legitimate means. Um, but, um, [00:16:30] the the little baby star liner, Um uh, from I think it was dated in the 19 fifties, uh, which originally I think you purchased and had living in Grey. Lynn. Uh, when I first became an MP, I decided I wanted a caravan to do my electorate work. Um, following in the in the steps of, um, MP greats like Helen, who had an old oxford, I think mine. I wanted something a bit smaller so that I could park it. Um, and I found this one online on, um, trade me That was only 8 ft, absolutely [00:17:00] miniature, and I absolutely fell in love with it. It didn't appear to be worthy in any sense of the word. In fact, in the description, it acknowledged that it had chickens living in it. Um, the pitchers told a very telling story, and I remember my father saying, You are mad that Chassie will be full of rust. Um, but without even seeing it, um, I decided I was going to bid on it. It had a little note, though, that said it used to be a TV prop caravan. And I thought, that's curious. So I called. And, uh, little [00:17:30] did I know I was calling the home of one of the tops and then had it explained to me that it was the old caravan used for some of the Camp leader camp mother skits. And, of course, that then sealed the deal for me. There was no way I was walking away from this trade me auction. Um, it was hard fought. There was someone else bidding against me. And I still to this day, remember sitting in my office in parliament, uh, on my well Sorry. I was on the computer watching this roll through, and I was losing Suddenly, my phone flashed up [00:18:00] my desk phone. Phil Goff, leader of the Labour Party at that time, was calling me Phil never calls me. I pick up the phone, and I said, Can't talk. Bidding. Um and I took it. I took it out. Um, I to this day feel so proud to have that tiny little slice, um, of Kiwi history. Um, and even just the story of coming to pick it up. Uh, and, uh, as I arrived, uh, being greeted by, [00:18:30] uh, All right, come on in here and take a look to, um I remember trying to defend myself as being from morrinsville. I was wearing heels on a farm, which is never a good look. Um, but I feel so proud to have that little bit of Kiwi history, even if it it it it absorbed, um, the, um money I'd put aside for a deposit on a home, Um, fixing it up. But I think I can speak for any everyone, regardless of whether it's something physical or it's something spiritual. There's a little [00:19:00] piece of you and all of us if we can claim you in that way. And I wanna thank you for the years that you've given us and the years that we still expect from you to come. So without further ado, can I welcome to the stage Linda and Jules talk. Why, Yeah, [00:19:30] 80. It's no. Then Oh. Oh, the the the That you [00:20:00] Hi. Hi. Bye. Yeah, Be strong. [00:20:30] Yeah, This is pretty cool. Hey, um, I was just saying to you know, when people get an exhibition in the museum, they usually dead, and it's really exciting to be here live. Um, in this exhibition, I'd like to acknowledge, uh, Jacinda to us, she's just Jacinda. She'll always be just as the the girl who bought our caravan. We had [00:21:00] a $1 reserve on it, and she paid 1200 bucks for it. Paid 14. 14. He paid 14. OK, she's She's young and silly. And we'd also like to, uh, acknowledge Helen for being here Who's always been there for us, right From the word go. When we were little fellas, she was our prime minister. And it's really beautiful to have Helen and Jacinda here as our prime ministers. As from now on, woman should [00:21:30] only ever be prime ministers in New Zealand. I've toured a little idea with, uh, becoming, uh, you know, getting involved in politics. Uh, Jules and I have actually kept out of politics for the last year or so. We just didn't want to steal your thunder at all, But, um but I think, uh, we had a classic moment with our mom and dad, Uh, our dad's 90 mum's 87. And, uh, we were sitting down having tea with them a couple of nights ago, [00:22:00] and they were invited to come. They're up in still, and they were invited down here and they said, Oh, it's too far to go. It's too far to go and stuff. And then Mum, just out of the blue, she said, And then I said, You know, there'll be lots of famous people there, you know? I think the prime minister is coming, and Mum goes that Jacinda. Isn't she a lovely girl? She's doing a lovely job, too. Lovely. Now, this is two old national farmers who have always always voted national, and [00:22:30] we came from them. We came from our mom and dad farm good farming stock national. But they allowed us to be the top twins. They allowed us to be who we are. So a big thank you to all the people around us. Um, our mom and dad were always there for us as kids. Um, our prime ministers, our women prime ministers have always not all all of them. There was one that just sort of, you know, faked it for a little while. And, [00:23:00] um and I'd also like to acknowledge all, uh, the people who have worked with us over the years Uh, a is here with us. She's our manager and has been for over 25 years now, So we've got a really, you know, pretty good, uh, partnership. Now, um, she's done an amazing job by looking after us, but also allowing us to make the decisions as well as her. So, um, you know, because nobody's ever told us what to do, [00:23:30] Nobody's ever gonna tell us what to do. We will always be who we are. We'd like to thank um all the team that worked that worked on our TV programmes. Felicity is here our our current director of our TV programmes. He's done a fantastic job. Um we're surrounded by amazing women and that is, you know, really important. And there's a few sort of good blokes too who happen to put this exhibition together, so we'd like to thank all of them. I would also like to thank all the amazing New Zealanders [00:24:00] who have all followed us and been with us on our journey. They have done an amazing job, um, being there for us. You know, if if it wasn't for our audiences and our fans and what have you they then we wouldn't be who we are. You know, if you want to put a show on, you got to have an audience and and the Kiwis have come on board and we we feel so proud that we can perform in New Zealand and we perform to moms and dads and teenage kids and babies and grandparents [00:24:30] and national people and labour and labour and the greens and New Zealand. First, they all come to our show. So we have crossed the board. You know, we have crossed all the boundaries, and I think, you know, um, it's part of it is us. But the other part of it is that we live in New Zealand, the most incredible place in the world. You know, it is really amazing. Um uh, my sister here, she's, you know, a big part of what's happened [00:25:00] for me as well. Um, without her, I'd be nothing, as I said before, and and she's always said that as well. We've had our ups and downs in our lives. Um, but we've always always loved each other and always always stayed together as sisters and and always sisters, as in, uh, relatives, sisters and sisters and fighting for what we believe in. And, um, I think that, you know, uh, there [00:25:30] was a time when, when Jules, uh, had a little healthcare. Uh, you know, the the big cancer came along, and, um, you know, a lot of people have been affected by cancer in New Zealand. We're not sure. Quite quite sure why it is, I think probably getting rid of 10 and 80 out of this country for a start would be good. Just a little reminder there, Jacinda, Uh uh would be a good start. Let's get rid of all the poison out of this country and make it the best, the most incredible place in the world. People will want to come here, you know, [00:26:00] they they want to come here already. But let's make it the best best place in the world. And Jules did have a little skier, the cancer. I'm not sure if it was a 10 80 when we were growing up because they were chopping it all over the countryside. They still are, um and we need to get rid of that. But Jules, uh managed to get through that, and I was her caregiver for eight months, and she did say to me that it was quite good. Now that she's she's in good health. But she's glad that she's got a twin sister in case she does get sick. She said she's keeping me [00:26:30] for parts. Um, I'm I'm gonna, uh, finish up and just thank everybody for being here tonight because this is the start of the tour of the top exhibition. And it is, um, you know, it just feels like an honour that that people have made an effort to, you know, you know, put a little show on for us, you know, about us and, um, and that other people can come and see it. And so, um, I'd like to thank you all for being here. You know, you are [00:27:00] part of this. You are part of New Zealand. You're part of our journey. It's not just our journey. It's everybody's journey. And I think, you know, we we have shown the rest of the world that we are an incredible, tolerant, wise, amazing people who live in this country. I'm gonna hand over to, and then I think we probably might sing a song. What do you reckon? [00:27:30] Uh, not really. Much else to say. Really? Linda, really. You know, she's always been a talker, and, um, you know, everything that we do now is for love, and it's important we remember that because we're all here because we love something we do. And it's not about whether we're famous or how much money we have or how many cars we have parked in the garage or a jet ski or any any of the things that we think [00:28:00] that might make us feel happy. We're only happy when we're connected to our friends. We're connected to the people that we care about, and we're connected to the people that are going in the right direction and the people who aren't going in the right direction. We will honour them and listen to their story, too, because that is the only way we will ever find a way of going forward. Because what happens is our life has been about being tolerant. Our part of our life is about being tolerant to people and [00:28:30] understanding that when we listen to them, sometimes they come with us, they join our role, they join our road and they come and become part of something that's bigger and brighter and beautiful. And, you know, we need more of that in this country. We need positive news and good news and good people to follow. And I know that you know, we've had many a good time, a great time in our lives [00:29:00] performing and those times are not over. We've got plenty of parties to go to. I know Jacinda is a good girl. Because when she came, she opened the door of my caravan and it fell off. She was still committed to buying it. So, um, this is all good. This is great. We might as well finish off with a song about something we wrote a long time ago. It's about us. It can be about you if you want it to be. It's about being untouchable, and we all are. And honestly, [00:29:30] it is about love [00:30:00] down there. Put something decent on the TV for us. [00:30:30] Thank. I don't know whether anyone is officially opening the door of [00:31:00] the exhibition, but we've got an exhibition to go to. What do you reckon? Spend your money?

IRN: 1189
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/vigil_for_zena.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004528
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089822
TITLE: Vigil for Zena
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Bella Simpson; Brian Dawson; Chris Campbell; Fleur Fitzsimons; Jan Logie; Jem Traylen; Kassie Hartendorp; Kevin Haunui; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aro valley; Bella Simpson; Brian Dawson; Buddhism; Chris Campbell; Civic Square / Te Ngākau; Evolve Wellington Youth Service; Fleur Fitzsimons; Jan Logie; Jem Traylen; Justin Lester; Kassie Hartendorp; Kevin Haunui; Louisa Wall; Michael Fowler Centre; Tranzform (Wellington); Tīwhanawhana; Vigil for Zena Campbell (2018); Wellington City Council; Zena Campbell; activism; chant; crime; death; domestic violence; facebook. com; family; grief; hate crime; karakia; lighting of building exterior; moment of silence; remembrance; respite; safety; school; trans; transgender; transphobic violence; vigil; waiata; wind; youth
DATE: 20 March 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Civic Square / Te Ngākau, Civic Square/Te Ngākau, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the Vigil for Zena Campbell, held in Civic Square on 20 March 2018. Zena died on the 11 February 2018 in Wellington. A special thank you to Bella Simpson and the Campbell family for allowing us to record this event. Note: some wind noise and distortion happen at points in this recording.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh uh. We're about to begin now. A ceremony, uh, for for to begin the ceremony. We'll just have a to start, And we'll then sing a song to celebrate that. And to start the the, um, proceedings. Um, this evening there is a song sheet and the song that we will sing following the [00:00:30] is You're welcome to join in. [00:01:00] Um, [00:01:30] [00:02:00] [00:02:30] no. Yeah, [00:03:00] the [00:03:30] [00:04:00] Yeah feel [00:04:30] [00:05:00] Yeah. Second. Hello. Um, my name is Bella. Thank you to for opening this space for us this evening. Um, and thank you. The to the city Council for giving us a space. Um, this evening it's been amazing. Your support [00:05:30] and how fast you've jumped in to just offer anything you can. Um, your quick responses has been amazing. So we're going to start this evening with a moment of silence for Zeena. Then we're going to hear from, um, Councillor Brian Dawson. Um, Fleur, I forgot your last name, Um, and Jan Logie. And then we're gonna open up the space for, um if anyone would like to say anything, OK, [00:06:00] so we'll just start with a moment of silence. OK, so [00:06:30] I'm not normally one to Prew. Write my speeches I'm a firm believer in winging it on the spot, but this evening I felt a need to write out what I wanted to say. Um, on the 11th of February, we lost a beautiful person from our Trans was murdered, and her life was just beginning, and it's been taken away from her and her family. I went to high school with, and Zeena was always up for banter and always up for a good laugh. And I'm really sad that I never got a chance to know her more [00:07:00] outside of high school. Um, as Trans women, we're told that we have a really rough life expectancy of about 41. Um, and that's something we often don't think much of. But this is a stark reminder of the reality for our trans and gender diverse, the hurdles that we constantly have to face just to be ourselves. I was really saddened to see that no one was talking about Xena, and when it was put through the media, it was done terribly. I spoke to friends about how sad and mad I was, and the most common response I got was Wait, [00:07:30] Was this America this evening? I really want us to come together and we're gonna say her name. We aren't going to turn a blind eye to domestic violence towards trans people in our city. We won't turn a blind eye when our Trans are under attack. We live in a city that is full of diversity and with a mayor who is actively working to make our city a safer place for our Trans. Unfortunately, he couldn't be here this evening, but instead he is organised for the Michael F Lights to be turned on and the trans flag colours [00:08:00] for Zena. It's a little bit bright right now, but, um, they'll be on later this evening. Um, we need to take our anger and our sadness and keep pushing forward. We need to look after look after each other, we need to learn. And Wellington needs to know this won't be happening on our streets. We won't stand for this. Whether it was a hate crime or domestic violence. The reality is that Xena is no longer here. And she had so much positive light to offer the world, and we will not let her death go unnoticed. [00:08:30] So, um, if Brian would you like to say some things first? Thanks. Bella, Um, I want to start by actually acknowledging you, Bella, and thank you so much for organising this. This is really important. So my name is Brian Dawson. I'm one of the city councillors. I'm one of the city councillors for the Lampton ward for the central area. Um, but for me, I, I live in a And for me, this is about what goes on in my own backyard and, uh, acknowledging that [00:09:00] this is horrendous and tragic, and there's no other words for it, but that this is something that we shouldn't have in our city. But we do. Every life that is stolen by violence steals just a little bit of light from the world around us. And I guess my very brief request tonight is that we all play our part in claiming back some of that light, Uh, that we all play our part in not letting violence turn [00:09:30] us into hate haters that we don't let violence change us into being something that we don't want our city to be. Uh, for me as an a resident, Uh, I was shocked that something like this could happen in my streets. And I'm determined that we won't turn the blind eye that you talked about, Bella, that we will not simply forget that this sort of thing is happening. And so on behalf of myself and my colleagues in the Lampton Ward I, I want to say that we take this seriously. I want to say that most importantly, that, uh, truth [00:10:00] will always beat falsehood. That love will always beat hate. And that light will always be darkness in the end. And so no matter how dark it seems at the moment, I know that we can continue to claim back that light. One practical thing I do want to say is that we do have a condolence book that is gonna be at reception at council, Uh, over the next week or so And we'd really welcome everyone who would like to come in to sign that book to write a note to Zea. Uh, and we'll make sure that gets back to the right people afterwards, So please [00:10:30] do take advantage of that. Thank you so much for showing up tonight and it's actually floating around at the moment at the at the moment. So if you get a chance tonight, sign it Otherwise at reception over the next week or so Flow if you'd like to. My name is Fleur Fitzsimmons and I'm a Wellington City councillor with portfolio responsibility [00:11:00] for making our city safe. I just want to start by expressing my deep condolences to family to friends, to classmates, to everyone here for the loss of Zena. I really want to also, uh, applaud the transgender community for your activism and for the organisers, Uh, for organising this today, it's, uh, a very, very important issue. We must make sure that everyone, uh, especially [00:11:30] members of the transgender community, are safe in our houses, on our streets, in our prisons, in our workplaces, everywhere. And I salute you for organising this and I salute you for demanding more and demanding better. And I encourage you to keep doing that. Um but it shouldn't just fall on you. We all have to take responsibility for this and I want to commit to you that as the Wellington City Councillor, with responsibility for [00:12:00] city safety, I will do everything I can do to make our city as safe as possible and I just want to leave you with, um, some final words really about grief and encouraging you all to remember that grief can present itself in different and unexpected ways over time and just urge you as I'm sure you will, to look after each other and look after yourselves. And if you need help, seek help. And if anyone you know needs [00:12:30] help, make sure they seek help as well. Thank you. Jan. If you'd like to say some words, thank you to Jan whose office got back to my last minute email this morning. So, um so, firstly, to acknowledge, uh, family and friends, Um, and the grief that's here for the loss of, [00:13:00] um, Zea Campbell from your lives and our community. And, um, thanks to Bella to pulling us together to have a chance to actually remember in a positive way and to kind of reclaim our space as a community in support of each other. I want to, I guess [00:13:30] acknowledge and to also give apologies for Louisa Wall, who wanted to be here today, um, and is here in spirit, but had to had work that she wasn't allowed to get out of, um, but she is here. And, um, as a team in parliament, we want to let you know that we are standing with you in a commitment to addressing this [00:14:00] violence. And that's kind of you know, that there's two levels of that because I want to acknowledge, too, that when somebody's murdered in this way, when we know discrimination exists in our society that that feeds violence, then actually we've lost a person. But we also feel a loss in ourselves because it feels as if it happens to part of us as well. And we need [00:14:30] to stand with each other to support and to challenge that. And, um, I yeah, it's, you know, it's hard to know exactly what we, um what to say in the face of that kind of violence. Um, but we need to do more. And the starting point is to be coming together and to be sharing our [00:15:00] grief and to be listening and to committing to difference. Um, and I also just want to, um Yeah, I guess end on that same note about just reaching out to each other and, um, that this can This will yeah, no longer be that we can do better than this. [00:15:30] Thank you. So I'm going to open up the mic now. Um, and you're welcome to say a few words A poem, a prayer, Sing a wee song if you want. Um, just be mindful that we've got pride. N is recording this evening. Um, and so that will be on the nz dot com website. Um, and news talk ZB is here, and there's a handful of other media places here. So, um, if [00:16:00] media is not your friend, then apologies in advance. Hi. I'm Campbell, Xena's father. I just like the family and friends of Zena and everyone who knew her. Um, that's come here tonight. Thank you very much. Um, she'd really appreciate it. Um, and it's sad that she was taken from us through an act of violence. [00:16:30] Um, from a domestic way, it's just not on. Um, but thank you, Bella, for, um, getting everybody together and Alex for getting everybody together at short notice. Thank you very much. Anyway, for family and friends coming together. Thank you. The other thing I didn't mention is there are three buckets floating around by three great volunteers. Um, raising some funds for the family. [00:17:00] So if you'd like to donate a gold coin some dollars. That would be really lovely. Um, does anyone else Would anyone else like to say anything? Hi, everybody. Um I'd just like to thank you all for coming. Um, Zena, I miss you, you little unicorn. You were a pain in the ass. But [00:17:30] I miss you, and I love you dearly. This might get a little loud. I'm just going to do a Buddhist chant for my dear friend. Zena Ring, Ring, [00:18:00] ring. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, I'm and this is Johnny. Hi, everyone. Um, my name is Johnny. I met Zenith, um, in respite. And we spent a bit of time together there. And, um, after that, she came to live [00:18:30] with me in my house while she was looking for a place to stay. Um, I got to know her quite well. Um, even though, you know, we only spent about a month together. Um, in the time that I knew her, she was always easygoing, friendly. She welcomed everyone with open arms she was accepting and understanding. Uh, she was sympathetic. Her pos, uh, her positive attitude towards life influenced a lot of, uh, a lot of my friends and myself. Um, [00:19:00] in the time that I knew her, she was focusing on, um, getting her life on track. And that was going really well. And it's such a shame that she didn't get to make any more progress. It was stolen from her. Um, she wanted people to be a lot more free, live their life in a more positive and humble environment. And I miss her a lot. Thank you. Hello. I'm a resident of street. None of us [00:19:30] knew Zea before she arrived, and I sneaked a suspicion she hasn't left yet. But on behalf of the street, maybe a bit presumptuous of me, but wherever you are, if you want to stay, you need to stay in street until all is resolved. You are now part of our urban. [00:20:00] Um, I'm Cassie. I just want to ask if there's any former or current evolved staff who might want to come up and stand with me if they feel able. And if anyone from transform wants to come up as well. Um, Zeena was just an incredible ball of energy. Um, I don't think we'll ever meet anyone quite like her, and we were so lucky to have known her. And these are some of the people [00:20:30] who worked alongside her as nurses. Um, I was a youth worker at one stage, um, and from Transformers. Well, who are passionate about supporting young, transgender and gender diverse people, and we just want to say that she'll be dely missed by us. Um, the work we do is for people like Xena, and just a reminder that if you're really hurting, we're here for you as well. Thank you. [00:21:00] Yeah, I think it just really highlights how vulnerable we are as trans people. And, um, you kind of hear all these stats, but when you actually see somebody, you know kind of it, it hits you in the kind of work that evolve and outer spaces does out of it, because we basically have to. Thanks. [00:21:30] Um, I'm really touched to see so many people come along, particularly from all different parts of the community. And to know that that, um, Wellington supports us. Um, I really just wanted to say a really short cut here that's in the the sheet that we handed out and then to sing it together. If you'd like to join in, [00:22:00] [00:22:30] OK, I might hand it back over to [00:23:00] then if no one else wanted to say anything. OK, thank you once again for coming to claim the space in which to acknowledge zenas passing to acknowledge to the to acknowledge our to each other as a community. Um, we're going to close [00:23:30] off this little space for the time being, and, uh, we're going to sing a, uh, we've come together in sadness, but we also need to leave and make sure that we're nice and healthy, Uh, when we leave the space. And so this is really about, um, cleansing ourselves, uh, with the elements that are around us to, um and it talks about, um, [00:24:00] casting aside all those things that trouble us, all those things that bind us and weigh us down. It also talks about, uh uh, you know, the spirit, the spirit flying as high as it can. So it goes to the place where the sun never stops shining, uh, and things like that. So, um, this is a little a little You may have heard it. Please join in. And then following that, we'll have a quick that will close off [00:24:30] the session, OK? [00:25:00] And [00:25:30] [00:26:00] [00:26:30] [00:27:00] [00:27:30] [00:28:00] [00:28:30] she on me. Thank you.

IRN: 1188
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/wellington_international_pride_parade_2018.html
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089821
TITLE: Wellington International Pride Parade 2018
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Adeline S. Greig; Ahi Wi-Hongi; Ariana Tikao; Caleb Gordon; Chelsea O'Reilly; Chris Bensemann; Christian Jones; Gareth Farr; Garth Bloomfield; Grant Robertson; Jan Logie; Jim Waters; Joe Kearns; Justin Lester; Maggie Shippam; Nicola Willis; Pamela Hancock; Paul Eagle; Roger Swanson; Spanky Jackson; Tania Beckett; Taupuruariki Brightwell; Tracey Thompson; Valerie Love
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; ASB Bank; Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC); Adeline S. Greig; Ahi Wi-Hongi; Amnesty International; Aotearoa New Zealand; Ariana Tikao; Aunty Dana's Op Shop; BMW cars; Bulls; Caleb Gordon; Census (2018); Chelsea O'Reilly; Chris Bensemann; Christian Jones; Civil Union Act (2004); Countdown supermarket; Counties Manukau; Department of Internal Affairs; E tu (union); Events; Fran Wilde; Gareth Farr; Garth Bloomfield; Gender Minorities Aotearoa (GMA); Grant Robertson; Green Party; HIV / AIDS; Helen Clark; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Human Rights Act (1993); Hurricanes (rugby team); ILGA World Conference (2019); InsideOUT Kōaro; Jacinda Ardern; Jan Logie; Jenny Shipley; Jim Waters; Joe Kearns; Justin Lester; Lilith LaCroix; Louisa Wall; Maggie Shippam; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Member of Parliament; Miss Ribena; NZEI Te Riu Roa; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; National Library of New Zealand; National Party; New York City; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand Council of Trade Unions (CTU); New Zealand Labour Party; New Zealand Nurses Organisation; New Zealand Police; Nicola Willis; Out at PSA Network; Out at Work Network; Out in the Park (Wellington); Pamela Hancock; Paul Eagle; Post Primary Teachers Association (PPTA); PrEP (Pre-Exposure Prophylaxis); Pride Parade (Wellington); Pride parade; Pride precinct; Public Service Association (PSA); Rainbow Crossing (Wellington); Rainbow Tick; Rainbow Wellington; Rainbow flag; Regenerate Magazine; Richter City Roller Derby; Roger Swanson; Rongotai; Spanky Jackson; Sydney Mardi Gras; Tania Beckett; Taupuruariki Brightwell; Tawa College; Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington; Tertiary Education Union Te Hautu Kahurangi o Aotearoa; The Gender Centre (Wellington); Toronto; Tracey Thompson; Tīwhanawhana; Valerie Love; Wellington; Wellington Batucada; Wellington City Council; Wellington High School; Wellington International Pride Parade (WIPP); Wellington Pride Festival (2018); World AIDS Day; Xero; acceptance; balloons; bisexual; census; children; church; civil unions; coming out; community; corporate sponsorship; death penalty; diversity; education; equality; flags; funding; gender affirming healthcare; gender-affirming surgery; government; health care; health funding; homelessness; homosexual; homosexual law reform; human rights; invisibility; lesbian; love; marginalisation; marginalised communities; marriage equality; mayor; mayoral chain; mental health; non-binary; parade; percussion; police; poverty; rainbow police car; representation; reproductive rights; roller derby; rugby; school safety audit (ERO); scouts; sponsorship; sport; straight; t-shirts; takatāpui; teacher; tolerance; trans; transgender; transition; unions; visibility; worker's rights; workplace bullying
DATE: 10 March 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Audio from the Wellington International Pride Parade 2018. A special thank you to the participants and organisers for allowing us to record this event.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi. It's Gareth Farr reporting live from the Wellington International Pride Parade. There's a There's the most astonishing amount of gorgeous people I can see huge balloons. I can see the the the greens have a contingent. Yay for the greens. And I can also see um, percussion. And look, I know this is this is audio, but you should You should [00:00:30] see how gorgeous I look to do a description for me. No, you do. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. So So So what? So what are you What are you wearing? I decided I decided that I would do, um, sort of concert tales, which is Gareth and drag face, which is Lilith. And, um, I think you're gonna have to refer to me as gorilla [00:01:00] gorilla. If somebody couldn't be here tonight, what would you want to say to them? 00, Well, it would be It would be all of my favourite friends from the States. And, um, it I tell you what, what it would be is that New Zealand is such an amazing place to be a LGBTI person. Because [00:01:30] people look at this. People accept you and they love you. And it's not just about toleration, it's about actual acceptance. And I, I think that's so important. So, um, we have the Pride parade coming up towards us, and, um, it's quite an amazing event. And, um, where the city are involved in mushing for the day, I can see some half naked people. I was expecting that. [00:02:00] And just lots of colour and happy people kind of celebrating. Kind of What's going on? Um, this is the best. I've seen it in Wellington. Actually, it used to be a lot more tamer. So it's cool to see it kind of get what Auckland gets because I think we're better. And so you were saying you're marshalling How are you marshalling tonight? Also, we're using our awesome skating skills that we learn in the art of Derby, uh, to pretty much control the parade to help the other marshals as well. Um, pretty much monitor things and, you know, make sure the parade [00:02:30] goes smoothly as well, right? Yeah, we're just kind of here to keep the peace. I think, um, I don't think anyone is going to be too outrageous, but it's just our thing of that. If anything, does happen. Obviously, it's just to kind of move it along. Nothing to see here and make sure everyone's safe. What is it like for you personally to be to be, uh, rolling in a parade like this? Oh, I think it's a It's a great privilege. Um, we've come so far in the world today, you know, in terms of the LGBT community. And so [00:03:00] to be a part of this today, especially representing as a league and roller derby as well, because there's there's such a huge LGBT community in roller Derby and, you know, internationally, you know, our our rules state to protect, you know, people of sexualities and gender. You know, publicly, I believe we're one of the only sports that have actually announced that officially. So I think for us to be here, we're just showing that and showing that anyone you can join our league and roller derby and have a bit of fun and we're all together, [00:03:30] you know? Yeah. I mean, it's it's kind of awesome, like, um, to be able to have, uh, transgender people or lesbians in any way how they kind of identify themselves, play in this awesome sport worldwide. Um, and be the first sport. That's kind of pioneering the way to do that. Um, and it's just a sport. I've stuck to the longest for myself. I've played lots of sport, but I've never been in one as inclusive as this, and it actually does feel like a family. So it's really cool to be here with our extended family [00:04:00] and being part of it. So I'm seeing right in front of me a wonderful rainbow flag. And then there are two arches of rainbow balloons which are looking quite fabulous and some Bata drummers and some tie dyed rainbow t-shirts that I'm quite envious of. With my green tradition, I think I should own one and some wonderful rainbow greens with love, heart signs and and oh, I see M, Rabia and [00:04:30] some roller derby girls. It's all going on and looking great. And don't I look great? Yes. Hello? Greens. Yes, I like to. Would you like to support gay and lesbians? Absolutely. Being one myself. I would love to thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. Jen, could you describe what you're wearing as well? Ah, well, I have, um, squid, high tops and a [00:05:00] fabulous 19 seventies green house coat with polka dots and a, um, Afro made out of a tutu that's also green, with a very subtle black dress underneath. I'm going for subtle this year. Jane. Why is it important to be marching in a parade like this? Well, just I mean, all too often we're still invisible, and there's a consequence of being invisible. It kind of, you know, makes you feel smaller and makes life harder. So coming out and being [00:05:30] visible and proud and joining community, it just it makes a difference. And also like if people are feeling disconnected or alone or struggling with anything, then really, I would say my experience was reaching out to community, and getting involved in things actually enriches your life. What we're seeing is a large collection of people, all brightly coloured and in rainbow colours. [00:06:00] Um, certainly some lovely balloon collections of, um, parades going obviously hit in the parade, I would say, Um, lots of pretty frocks. Very nice frocks to fun, fun are over there warming up. So that's really nice to see. So very nice. We are obviously seeing the younger generations that have followed on from us. Uh, from the early days of of law reform, most of these people probably weren't born yet. So it's [00:06:30] quite nice to see that that there's still gay people interested in in keeping things going back then it was all just felt very closeted and very, very, um, unpublished by the public and and by organisations. But today you've got I mean, we're marching with internal affairs today, so you know, like that. And I see the police are here and I see some other organisations are here as well so the whole dynamics have changed and the young people are every multi multiple colour and [00:07:00] and the variety that you never even think of, you know, like 40 years ago. Yes. It's nice to be marching with the police instead of having them charging into the pubs at night to give us an ugly stare Would you have ever imagined 30 years ago that, uh, you this would be like this today? Not at the time, not at the time, but, uh, once, once we got over the first hurdle, there was a bit of hope. Yeah, I. I think once once the law [00:07:30] reform happened, then you could see other things happening and things changed. And then, um and there was a sort of, like, almost a progression of change happening. And once the Human Rights Act act changed, and then we got on to civil unions and marriage. Equality. I mean, there is a sort of, but plus, I think there were other things in between that were sort of, you know, minor tweaks of the law that made, uh, uh, diversity and gays and lesbians trans welcome or able to live their lives without having to feel as though they have to constantly fight against the stream. And now, of course, [00:08:00] uh, it's just been announced just this week that, uh, Wellington is getting a rainbow crossing on Cuba Street. How bold. We are coming. Yeah, well, oh, it's amazing, you know that We've always had good support from the council and with some respect from Fran Wilde, who was our mayor for many years and things like that. So we had really good people, but it's just nice seeing it coming out in a bit more public in a playful way and an enjoyable way, you know, not not too serious. Just, you know, like a rainbow crossing in a you know, um, rainbow umbrella. I saw I saw the picture as well. So you know, very nice. [00:08:30] I could have had one of those. You could What? II. I work Friday mornings at a church. I won't say which one, because I didn't want to shock anyone, but there was a rainbow umbrella left in the office. And I thought maybe I should just borrow that today. That would be very nice. Who knows what the weather is going to be? It was lovely tonight. Beautiful, fine weather and its like, chilly breeze. It's good Wellington breeze, but, uh, but very nice on a personal note. What is it like for you both to be [00:09:00] marching in a parade like this? Oh, well, I'm quite proud. I'm quite happy to be here and to show my support because we've given our support, as you say for the last 30 years. So, um, it's good to be able to keep doing it, Although I'm getting a bit creaky now, and I must put my back out tonight and didn't show up. So here we go. I think it's nice to be able to celebrate rather than, you know, march for a particular issue, just to, you know, that sort of have time to celebration. [00:09:30] And I think that's really what I'm enjoying tonight. Justin. Um, this week you have announced something very special in Wellington. Yeah. This week we've announced, or later in the year, we're going to be, um yeah, delivering a rainbow crossing for Wellington. We want to create a, uh, a pride precinct in Wellington and around Cuba Street. And it's a, I think, a logical location. And people want to see a greater awareness around rainbow community and pride issues. Is it the first one in New Zealand? I think it is. Um, I don't want to, uh, lay claim [00:10:00] to something because I don't know what's in other parts of the country, but I'm certainly not aware of one. And how did it come about, um, talking with the pride community? Um, and saying how can we help, um, create a greater awareness? Also, we've got the conference in March 2019. Uh, so we wanted to We create a legacy project around that because the first time it's been held in the Southern Hemisphere. So, um, we'll look at? We'll look at art murals. Um, sculptural form, uh, the things we can do to and flags as well. Other things we can do to [00:10:30] create a precinct around Cuba Street. It's fantastic. Oh, yeah, I'm looking forward to It's gonna be good fun. It's again just working with the private community to make sure, um, people on board and they got some good ideas and we'll try and roll them out. So we're here tonight for the pride parade in Wellington. Can you tell me what you're wearing? I'm wearing my, uh, my robe and chains. Uh, because Amanda Hare has been organising it. She said, Look, we want to see some bling. Um, so, yeah, check on the robes and the chain. So it's I'm a little bit overdressed, but it's all right. It's a cracking night. I got a t-shirt on underneath so fairly relaxed and, uh, [00:11:00] for you personally. What? What is it like marching in a in a pride parade? Oh, great. It's all about, uh, yeah, respect for one another. Uh, it's around making sure that within the pride community, equal citizens, um, and that we're we're highlighting, uh, any particular issues? Um and it's just good fun. It's good, wholesome, fun being. It's bold, lots of colour, Uh, and A and a great sense of pride. Grant. So we're here at pride, and you have been here before, Gareth, like every year. But, um, it's different now because [00:11:30] you are now in government. I know. How is that going? It's great. It's really busy, Um, but it's a lot of fun, and, um, I don't know it. It's after 10 years of being in opposition. It really feels like we can do things now, you know? I mean, that's the you know, there are stresses and strains from being in government, but the fact that you at the end of the day are able to actually put stuff into place is great. So for rainbow LGBTI communities, what's on the agenda? Yeah, well, I think we all understand that we got more to do in terms of the trans community in terms [00:12:00] of services, health services, um, gender assignment of surgeries, but just the whole way in which, uh, public services work for the trans community. And then there's the question of whether or not there needs to be a change in legislation and, you know, I. I believe it does. Um, the Human Rights Act can be amended, and I think that will happen. So that's that's right up there on the agenda. Um, we've made some progress already. We've got, um, increased funding for prep. So we've actually got, you know, much wider access for that now, which is really, really good and and will go a long way towards the [00:12:30] ending. HIV goal. Um, and still working on some other way that social services like wins and others work with our queer community. Um, but that's on the agenda within the education system. We've got work going on, um, to to improve the way that our school inspections actually look at, um, the kind of safe environment being provided for queer kids. So we're making some progress on that. So, yeah, there's there's good things happening. Didn't quite get there for the census this time round. Uh, but we will sort that out for next time. And that is coming, isn't it? It is. You know something? It was a matter of timing. We just didn't get into government quick enough to be [00:13:00] able to get a census or a series of census questions that allow people to acknowledge sexuality and gender identity. But we'll get there. And how good was it? Uh, for Auckland pride to have Jacinda Ardern marching. It was so great. In fact, that was a really quite amazing event. Uh, people were just really excited to see her there. Jacinda marched in pride parades for seven or eight years. I've been with her doing those, but to have the the the actual prime minister of the day walking down the street, you know Jenny Shipley, Helen Clark, They both went to the parade, stayed [00:13:30] there, but they didn't march. Jacinda marched. And I think that was a really powerful message. And so marching today. What does that mean for you? It's just another great opportunity for for the city of Wellington to show that that we're a city that's proud of our diversity. I think of all the cities in New Zealand, Wellington is the one that actually does the best at not just tolerating our diversity but actually embracing it and celebrating it. And that's what tonight's about for me, if somebody couldn't be here tonight for whatever reason. What? What kind of message would you like to give them? Um, [00:14:00] what I'd say is know that your city is proud of you, Uh, know that this is a place where you can genuinely be yourself and and and be the person that you want to be. And if there's people out there who are still struggling with their identity, which we know that there are, uh, just know that there is a community still out there that's there to support you and that you can be part of Well, we're representing gender minorities and Auntie Donna's Op Shop and the Gender Centre and inside out is coming. Also, we're doing a float together and [00:14:30] NZ PC. So we mostly we're a walking float. We've got, um, lots of people have painted these big trans flag coloured signs and everybody's just getting ready, having a little pre party dress up at the op shop. And then they're all coming down here to hold a big banner and walk together. And people have made signs that say the messages that they want to say about health care. So we're like a trans healthcare sort of float. And then we've also done up the van which is the Auntie Donnas shop, Um, with [00:15:00] a big trans flag on top and a mannequin holding a sign with a health care for all. Can you tell me a wee bit about Auntie Donna's op shop? Yeah. Auntie Donna's op shop is a fundraising store for, uh, um, gender minorities. So it sells secondhand clothing and toys and, you know, accessories and stuff like that. We raise money for transgender community development through gender minorities through the op shop. And that's also what we're representing here in [00:15:30] the parade. Can you read some of the signs out for me? Um, I should probably say the address of the op shop, which is on one of our sites. 128 ab Smith Street, Wellington. Um, we have signs like non binary, not confused or health care for all. We have one that says health care now, um, access to health care saves lives, and health care is a human. Right. Um, there's one that says 40 year waiting list and a question mark. So is is that still the current [00:16:00] situation? There's a 40 year waiting list for for gender affirming surgery. Yeah, we do have a surgeon Now who's going to be performing those surgeries in New Zealand? So we're hoping they're gonna clear the list quickly. And, um, yeah, do them at a bit of a faster rate, but we're not sure exactly how they're going to do that yet. Where is that surgeon based county? So they're up north. Yeah. And, uh, prior to that, what what were people having to do? Just wait for 40 years? Um, if people [00:16:30] could self fund, then they could take themselves overseas. The Trans guys could have surgery, um, through the public waiting list. But it's one every two years and two trans women every two years. Or is it every three years? Every three years. Maybe very, very slow. So the the options were either waiting years to get a publicly funded one or raising the large amount of money that you need to fly to another country and get it done yourself. In a lot [00:17:00] of cases, which definitely wasn't accessible for most people. What kind of money would that cost? Um, tens of thousands of dollars. Yeah, which is well out of the reach of most people. Yeah. And for like, trans men, it was like about $200,000 per stage of surgery. So usually four or $600,000. Yeah. So it's huge. It's definitely not the sort of money most people can save. So having [00:17:30] um, a surgeon in New Zealand is a is a good step forward. What? What are other things that can be done? Um, that that would improve the situation. We do lots of training with, um, doctors and health care providers. And so we work together with, um, there's like a cross agency health trans health, um, group set up with the DH, B and endocrinologists and student health and mental Health and us and some other community groups. So we work with them to try and develop a good pathway for things like hormones and stuff like that, [00:18:00] and put the kind of supports in place so that we can hopefully get some action happening. Yeah, we do lots of, um, going to seminars and things like that and speaking, talking to doctors and things about how to prescribe for trans patients, because it's pretty easy on a personal note. What is it like for you to be in a in a parade like this. Oh, it's awesome. It's really great. Um, it's really fun. I'm glad we're doing this in Wellington, and it's cool seeing all these people show up and everybody's excited and [00:18:30] yeah, we're really looking forward to it. And we're really happy to be able to have a float. That's for trans health care. And, like, you know, lots of trans people and everyone else who's keen to support can come along and jump in. Yeah, so that's awesome. I'm Joe. I'm the logistics officer for the, uh, uh, 2018 pride parade, And, uh, we're about to kick off, Uh, maybe 1500 possibly 2000 people, um, to walk through the [00:19:00] streets of wellington, uh, showing their wes and how proud they are of themselves and each other. Yeah, I'm really excited, actually. Can you give me an idea of of some of the groups that are going to be parading? Yep. Uh, really diverse, Really diverse. Um, So we've got, uh, gender minorities and, um, inside out. Um, there's a few youth are the scouts are walking with us. Countdown. Really Awesome. Countdown have done some amazing things lately. Um, zero [00:19:30] and, uh, obviously the police. Uh, we've got three political parties, the three major political parties National green and, uh, labour. Um, yeah, it was a BMW because, you know, we like to drive nice cars. So So who's leading the parade today? So leading out the parade is, um, back to and they will be. So we wanted to We wanted to, um, lead out with the bang and then this their musicians, They'll be playing [00:20:00] as they, um, open the parade. So just lead out with the bang show who we are behind them. We've got the green party because you know, why not? And they're awesome. Good on them for coming into the parade. Really excited. There's a nice, diverse, um, view of the community here, and, um, it's just gonna be really good. Everybody's in a really good mood and beautiful weather. I mean, uh, earlier in the week, I was thinking, Oh, the rain was coming in. There was going to be wind, but it's turned out really lovely. Yes, I ordered this weather. [00:20:30] OK, there's no there's no parade without, you know, beautiful sun. Uh, a lot of people were complaining that it might be too late for kids. But I remember being a kid, you know, and going out for the, uh, guy forks and being how excited that it was at seven o'clock or eight o'clock and being up that late, that was the excitement of my year. So, you know, hopefully a lot of kids will be there as well. In fact, I know they will be. And we're expecting large crowds of Spectators as well. Um, upwards of a few 1000 [00:21:00] actually several 1000. So this is quite different from, um, say last year when it was done during the day time. What? What are the just call differences between doing a daytime parade and doing something kind of early evening? Easier? Would you believe there's a lot less traffic on the roads? It's a lot easier to close the roads. Uh, Saturday during the day is, uh, the heaviest traffic in Wellington Saturday and Sunday. It is now, and, um so that makes it very hard. A on the traffic [00:21:30] and B on the parade as well. Getting through. Yeah, so other logistics. I guess it's easy to get people here during the day. They just get out of bed and roll down um, they they kind of have to, um, organise themselves to get here at 7 p. m. you know? So there's that and a few people don't like to come out at night. There's also that but a lot of us, like, really like to come out at night. What is the, um, most important thing of of pride parades or or pride events? [00:22:00] Um, sort of, uh, diversity, Um, and sort of inclusiveness and just having a bloody good time. And so who which group are you with? Uh, Wellington Garda. So Wellington Baard are samba band of 17 years in Wellington. We get dragged out when it's sunny like this, which is awesome. We always get dragged out when it's raining and when it's windy. And the whole idea is to bring joy to people's lives. Is this the first pride parade you mentioned? This is mine. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but the [00:22:30] band has done the last few years. I think so. Yeah. And so what are you expecting? Uh, just have a bloody good time. Um, make a lot of noise and I looking around me. Um, yeah, some pretty impressive outfits on, so it's gonna be awesome. Can you describe some of the things you can see? A building site? Yeah, but if we turn the other way, Ok, right. There you go. Um, corporate sponsorship. Um, so I get a bit cynical, but that's all good. Um, but lots of people that are putting glitz and glamour on their normal logos. [00:23:00] Um, plus some other community groups with important messages by looks of things and also the police, uh, with an awesome cop car in rainbow glitzy colours. Would you like to be stopped by one of those? I mean, is that kind of the arrest you'd be looking for? Sorry, I'm turning around on I, uh So I'm the organiser for the AC C. Um, participation in the parade. I guess. You know, we like to think of ourselves as a really diverse, inclusive organisation, Um, both in the people that work for us, but also the the the people that we serve in the community. So we just sort of [00:23:30] wanted to celebrate that and represent that. So So how did this come about at AC C this year? So we've been in the Auckland Pride parade for the last two years and it's been really successful. And, um, people in the organisation were, you know, really happy about it. So I was really keen for us to take to take part in Wellington as well. And so put the word out in our, um, head office and in our branches sort of in the Wellington region and had a really good response. And how many people have you got marching today? Probably somewhere between 50 60. Yeah, so really a huge response from everybody Really keen to participate and excited that AC [00:24:00] C is participating. Are there any kind of, uh, gender or sexuality policies that AC C has internally? Uh, certainly there is. And we're kind of really focusing on that a lot more. Now, um, we're trying to represent more of the communities that we actually, um are working in and and people that we serve. So it's definitely a big focus for AC C at the moment on a personal note, what's it like? Uh, marching and appro breed? Um, I've never marched it the first time, so I'm really looking forward to it. I'm really proud to work for an organisation that's so supportive, and I'm really happy for us to participate in this [00:24:30] and just to see how supportive so many staff were as well. Uh, so so I see you're you're unpacking your your gear. So you've you've got some t-shirts? Yeah, definitely. So we've got different, uh, rainbow t-shirts. Um, we've also got a rainbow sort of corporate flag. Uh, that's being designed with the AC C logo on it. And we've also got a banner and music. What are you going to be playing? Uh, a pretty camp playlist that I've put together. So I'm here with, uh, the Public Service Association. So PS a And so we've got a network within an organisation called [00:25:00] out at PS A For all of our union members who are, um, gender or sexual diverse. And so basically, we're here today just to kind of make ourselves publicly visible because we it's our belief that when you go to work, you should be able to take your whole self to work. And that includes, um, being able to be at work and be who you are when it comes to like your gender and your sexuality. Are they? So what does the network do? So we do a lot of advocacy work, mainly. So if [00:25:30] if in a in a workplace has an issue that kind of comes about due to them trying to live their lives themselves from a genuine sexual perspective or even any wider kind of workplace issue, they can come to us and talk about it in a kind of far more comfortable way, because we're can kind of understand the issues a little bit more, uh, with a bit more nuance. And then we also do a lot of work within an organisation, the wider union movement as well, trying to help other people who are organisers or work for a union to kind of better understand the issues that people who are gender, sexual, diverse might face in the workplace. So [00:26:00] what kind of issues have you come across? Um, and so, uh, some of them are just, like, really simple stuff, like workplace bullying. That's always gonna be an issue, Unfortunately, and so it's just about making sure that any conversations we're having about bullying like zero tolerance of bullying in the workplace also including um, any type of conversation around sexual and gender diversity, and that there's kind of no place for that in the workplace. Uh, we've also been doing support for people who, um might be looking to transition in the workplace or going and and kind of offering them, being [00:26:30] there to offer support with them and sit with them when they're having conversations with the workplace about what it would look like if they've been to transition within the workplace, even going through to people who have faced unfair dismissal based on the fact that they've been dismissed from work because of who they are and kind of offering them support through, um, kind of the actual legal process around that and just being being someone who's there for them in that time, because it is often very difficult and very fraught. So are you keeping the stats? Uh, over the years, in terms of the amount of bullying [00:27:00] in terms of gender or or sexual orientation? Um, going up or down like we do our best to try and like capture that. But it's always really difficult, because I mean, one of the things that you do often face is people who aren't always comfortable being out in the workplace. If they do encounter the issue and they leave. They're not going to kind of pursue anything around that, because, especially if they're not out to themselves, their family or wider community, if they feel like they're being bullied based on bullied at the workplace based on that and then they leave work because of it, they're not gonna kind of pursue it anyway because it's gonna involve [00:27:30] them being out of the game. And that's a conversation we keep having with people who are like the statistics are quite low. This isn't even happening. We're like, Well, that's because people don't want to do this because like it involves them having to help themselves to make themselves really identifiable. And if they've left because that makes them uncomfortable, they're not gonna do it to kind of actually kind of push their rights any further, and so that's why we're just trying to push it like a wider, broader culture change within workplaces to make it safer for these people. Are there any other unions that are that are doing some of the things there's been unions around? So the New Zealand [00:28:00] Council of Trade Unions has a a work group that sit across kind of all the unions. And that's, um we kind of support them and sit on it as well. And so kind of any you can jump on board. A number of the unions have been setting up networks. So, um, I think the nurses nursing unions just set up a work for them. Um, a two have an own network, and there's also within the three teaching unions have all kind of started to get together and really start pushing just to, um, so within teaching. There's a real kind of advocacy for our teachers who they can feel supported in their workplace. [00:28:30] On a personal note for you, what's it like being in a in a pride parade? Um, it's really exciting. I mean, oh, I I basically there because I think it's really important to be seen and be visible because it's something I wish I saw more of when I was growing up. Especially it's, um, expanding what a pride parade can be or who's in it. So I think having a wider, diverse of people, groups of people in it, So us coming forward is like we're workers. We're unionists. We you know, you can come to us with issues. Um, just kind of that really sending a statement around the fact that you can be who you [00:29:00] want to be at all times. Alright. And last, but certainly not least the gorgeous Justin Lester. If you'd make your way to the stage if it wasn't for the Wellington City Council and Justin Lesser, we would not be here, so give him a big round of applause. Come on, you can do better than that. Uh, we are incredibly proud in this city to support this event. And I'm here on behalf of all Wellingtons. Wellington has always been at the forefront [00:29:30] of the rainbow community in highlighting rainbow issues. Whether it be homosexual law reform going back 32 years or more recently, marriage, equality things aren't perfect. And it's our job to make them to strive to improve them and to make them even better. And that's why we're here today. I want to make sure that you're loud. I'm proud this evening. You look fantastic. We love the colour. The city is right behind you and I'm happy to support it now gives me great pleasure to officially open [00:30:00] the Wellington International Pride Parade in 2018. Ladies and gentlemen Justin Lesser. Alright, It's your time. It's our time. Wellington, make yourself shine. Wellington International Pride 2018. Here we go. [00:30:30] Yeah, At the moment there's a float with some very colourful people on board. Um, yeah, I think on the front float, we've got Lewis Wall as well. Yes, that's right. Um, with a bright yellow daffodil kind of a head piece on And, yeah, the dancers with their, um, spangles and sparkles coming towards us now, uh, hot pants and, um, some great headpieces. [00:31:00] Oh, I see. Wonderful. Um, uh, Women in sequin dresses and dancing and a wonderful drag queen and a headdress with beautiful. It looks like a peacock and a wonderful, wonderful, um, drumming. Fabulous dancing. It's fantastic. Now the green party coming up and, oh, all sorts of wonderful things are happening. Oh, roller blades. [00:31:30] People are bites. That's cool. Look at her. Isn't she fabulous? This is scrape green. The green part and Logan compare other. That's fantastic. Coming along here. Oh, there's just people everywhere. Beautiful colours, [00:32:00] rainbow everywhere. Rainbow flags. The scouts are here. That's pretty cool. Yeah, lots of young people. It's wonderful. See many so many young people in this parade, Fantastic National Party are here. I'm Nicola Willis and I'm a national, soon to be MP, and I am marching with a whole bunch of national supporters to [00:32:30] celebrate the Pride parade and celebrate Wellington's diversity. Well, congratulations on going into Parliament as well. Thank you. I'm absolutely thrilled. And I'm really looking forward to representing a lot of people in this city. So is this the first pride parade you've been in? It is the first pride parade I've been in, and I am so pleased to be here. I've been to out in the park on a couple of occasions, and I've always loved that celebration. This has a whole you know, lift and vibe, and it's fantastic to be here. Can you describe the atmosphere? Oh, look, we've got a really upbeat atmosphere. I think there's a sense of fun and a sense of excitement [00:33:00] and a really real sense of inclusivity and togetherness. Why are these kind of pride parades important? I think it's a way to celebrate the diversity of our community. It's a way of celebrating different sexualities, different ways that people express themselves and the different identities that people have and celebrate the fact that we can all be different together. What are the what are some of the biggest issues facing LGBTI rainbow communities at the moment? Uh, some of the issues that people raise with me, particularly in the trans community, around healthcare and access there, [00:33:30] and particularly around young people and mental health, young people who identify as LGBT Q and the challenges that they can have with mental health and getting support. If somebody can't be here tonight for whatever reason, what kind of message would you give to them? Make sure you come. It is so much fun. There's so many lovely people here and who doesn't love a rainbow. So my name is Tracy Thomson. I'm in the New Zealand police here in Wellington District, and we are very proudly walking in the Pride parade in 2018. [00:34:00] So you've got a lovely banner in front of you and behind you you've got something very special. We've got our rainbow car, uh, which made its debut in the Auckland Pro Parade and celebrating diversity and and Pride and the New Zealand Police diversity um is recognising diversity as one of our values. Can you describe the car? Our car? Well, it's an operational police car, and, uh, it was, uh, painted up in rainbow colours special to celebrate Pride parade. And we're going to keep it as an operational [00:34:30] police car. It's gonna remain a car in Auckland in the community section. So what is it like to actually march in a and appropriate? Oh, it's fantastic. It's positive engagement with our communities, and that's what we encourage our staff to do. And we want to be here. And I'm hearing lots of applause as well. Oh, yes. I mean, we were out at the out in the park parade as well, and, uh, we were very well received. The the community are very supportive of us. Just on a personal note. What? What is it like being here tonight? Oh, you know, it's [00:35:00] my husband's birthday, and I'm here, um, rather than at home with him, because I wanted to be here. It's just fabulous. Uh, it's all about our people and our communities. OK, I'm Chris Benzin. I'm the area commander of Wellington City, and, uh, and we've got about 30 of us on the police staff here today and the parade so fantastic to be part of the pride community here today, Um, and just just enjoying the occasion. And look at all the Wellington people. We out here actually, just just [00:35:30] really taking part in it. It's great to see, and I look every year after year. This is getting bigger and better. So fantastic. Why is it important for the police to be here and so visible? Oh, it just demonstrates how commitment to valuing the diversity and and not only the New Zealand police workforce, but, um, and in our community that we serve as well. So it's fantastic. You know, everyone's smiling. That's what I you know. That's why I can't get over. It's just everyone's just smiling and enjoying the time. So it's awesome. I'm Pamela Hancock and I'm from bulls, and I'm here for this occasion [00:36:00] on Courtney Place. It's lovely, isn't it? It's just like the Gumboot festival at home and happy really, where I grew up? No, it's absolutely fabulous, isn't it? I'm just so thrilled that all sorts of people get to do it. Not only gays and lesbians and trans but everyone. I mean, look who's out there. Thousands. And if you're on the radio, unfortunately, you can't see this amazing colour. That's it. It's just wonderful. There are so many people. There are, you know, letters in the year, [00:36:30] um, people in white people in rainbow there are floats to support the new prep pill. Um, for ending HIV there are drag queens. There are all sorts straights and gays and lesbians and trans, even a 63 year old woman like me. So who are you here? I'm here with the prep. Um, float. I did a fundraiser with them a a year ago for a stay. We've raised about $300 and it worked out really [00:37:00] well. So, yes, I support it incredibly, you know? Absolutely. Is this the first pride parade you've been in in my 63 years? This is the first pride I've been in, and it's absolutely fabulous. It's wonderful, isn't it? You don't get something like this in bulls. You know, if if somebody was listening in bulls to this, what would you say to them? Hello, darling. That's what I'd say. They didn't know. I mean, they already know my name. It's Pam here. Really? Support everyone around you and everyone outside [00:37:30] of the You got to love everyone, don't you, darlings? Uh, I'm well, I'm with zero. And will. Why are you marching today? Um, just cos I think people should be free to be proud of who they are, and zero believes in that. And they help support you with that. So how many people from zero are marching? Um, 20 or three for you personally. What's it like marching in a pride parade? Um, it's great. It's the first pride parade I've ever been in, Um, and the first time wearing a skirt in public. So it's great. How would you describe [00:38:00] tonight's atmosphere? Um, everyone's really excited to be here, um, proud to be who they are. You know, no matter who they are, it's great. I'm Valerie Love, and I'm with the Department of Internal Affairs and also the National Library, which is the part of the department I work for. Where are we standing? So at the moment, we're in Courtney Place and there's a great crowd out here, and it's really wonderful to see all the energy and the excitement. We've got a banner that says, We take pride in what [00:38:30] we do, which is one of the DIA slogans, and it's been great to see people really responding to that and just yeah, it's been awesome. Can you describe the crowd? Lots of enthusiasm, lots of young people, but also older people and a mix of tourists and locals. And it's great. Is this the first pride parade you've been in? Um, no. I've been in pride parades in New York and Toronto. Um, but this is my first New Zealand pride parade. But [00:39:00] I went to Sydney last year and I was actually there with my parents who were visiting me in New Zealand, and we went over to Sydney for a long weekend and it happened to be gay Mardi Gras over there, and we all went to the parade together. And I was so impressed by how much government participation there was in all of the political parties. And I thought, you know, next year I want to organise something for D A. So we can be part of it here in Wellington. Why do you think parades are important? I think the visibility is really important. I think It's a nice [00:39:30] way of getting out in the community and showing that we support the LGBTQ community and that we are the LGBT community and also allies. So we have a mix of people walking today with DIA, and it's awesome. If somebody couldn't be here tonight, what would you say to them to come next year? And also to know that there's lots of really supportive people in the National Library and at Dia and Archives New Zealand? So there's lots of really interesting history [00:40:00] about the LGBTQ community in New Zealand, and so you can come and do research and find out more. And there's lots of people that are willing to help. Um, my name is Jamie. Um, we're in, um, Courtney place for the, um, the K parade. I've been I've been to to Auckland for a long, long time. I never been to the to the parade. The K parade? Yeah. So first time, How does it feel? I love [00:40:30] it. Yeah, Ok, well, I'm Jim Waters. I'm a, um, effectively a secretary. Write the New Zealand from Wayne Wellington, And, uh, why are we here? We're We're here to, um, support visibility to promote the groups that, um, support the gay and lesbian community in Wellington. Um, not necessarily gay and lesbian, including a wider group of bisexual, transgender and intersex and, um and so on. Um and and it's very important for people [00:41:00] to feel feel safe and and, um, able to, um, stand up and be themselves. Jim, is this your first, uh, rainbow parade? It is indeed. Last year, I was, um, on out in the park, and they were doing it at the same time, and you couldn't be in two places at once. Can you describe for me the the atmosphere tonight? Oh, it's very buoyant. It's very, uh, everyone seems to be having a great time, including the crowd. Um, there's a lot of people watching, which is fantastic, too. Yeah. How many people do you think there are a couple [00:41:30] of 1000? Perhaps. I don't know. Up to you, it's important for for people like everyone. Everyone needs to, um, remember that people for everyone, it's a journey. So even even even people coming out now and and when When you might think that Oh, it's all that's all old history. It's It's still a journey for people. It's still important for people to feel they're supported by community. And there's someone for them who is who is on their side. Yeah. So I'm with students from Tawa College. Uh, Wellington High [00:42:00] School, Um, Victoria University and all, um, amnesty groups around the city. Um, and we're just here to say that love is a human, right, um, and stand up for the rights of everyone, regardless of their sexual orientation. Gender? Um, anything, really. We all deserve our human rights in terms of Amnesty International. What are the what are the main kind of areas? Um, of LGBTI rights that that you're looking at so internationally? We look at transgender rights, the rights rights [00:42:30] to gay marriage, reproductive rights. Any rights that are human rights are the rights of gay and LGBT plus people. So, for instance, in 74 countries around the world, it's actually illegal to be gay, and you can be persecuted by government and in 13 of those countries, the penalty for being gay is the death penalty, which we see as completely unacceptable because sexual orientation is just a part of who we are. And it definitely should not be punished with death. So a [00:43:00] lot of what they do is trying to campaign for laws to be changed and for positive legislation. And what about in New Zealand? What are the main issues for LGBTI Rainbow communities? Um, I would say, um, rights of transgender people and access to healthcare. Um, there's Yeah, there's a lot of issues, and I'm not especially an expert in that area. Um, but I think just general, um, being accepted by society. Also, um, even though we do have gay [00:43:30] marriage and we have other, um, good legislation, Yeah. There's all sorts of things that need to be improved. Yeah. Um, so I'm with the gender minorities, Trans healthcare now float. Um, and it's in response to the protest that was up in Auckland for their pride. Uh, festival, um, pretty much it's just demanding. Um, yeah, More support around around trans healthcare. What is the situation [00:44:00] like in New Zealand now? Am I allowed to swear shit, It's Yeah. Shit. Um, it's not good. Um, I know my friend, uh, she's hoping she's a trans woman, and it's looking like, um, she'll be in her late sixties when she gets the surgery. that she needs, So it it's not hopeful. Um, yeah, it's not good. What is one thing that could be done now [00:44:30] that would that would alleviate that funding? Yeah, definitely funding. Um, but I think, yeah, it would be good to get, like, a range of people who have experienced, um, the trend, um, health care system, because they all know more about it than I do. But yeah, funding is most important. Why is it important to be in a parade like this? Uh, representation, especially for people who [00:45:00] aren't out. Um, And seeing that, you know, there's a community who are backing them and are supporting them and seeing that it's OK to be, um, in the rainbow community. Um, and seeing that, like, if they are to come out. Um, yeah, there's a community who will back them. Um, yeah. And just to celebrate our community as well celebrate all the good things because I think often we think about all the bad things in our community. But there's [00:45:30] so many beautiful, amazing things that we have to offer. So, yeah. Um, So we got contacted by pride, and he asked us if we wanted to be part of the parade because they thought we were We were because so I have to say pride have been very supportive of regenerate, which is really cool. So tell me, what is Regenerate Magazine? It's New Zealand's first Street Paper Street magazine. We're an organisation which provide work opportunities for people affected by homelessness and poverty. [00:46:00] Three of our guys here currently are experiencing homelessness. So we're trying to trying to reintegrate people back into work back into society and helping people back onto the feet. So what is it like being part of a pride parade? Awesome. Really great atmosphere. Really good people. Really nice vibe. So, um, is this your first pride parade? Uh, yes, it is. Um, I'm a writer and distributor with the magazine, but yeah, that's the first time I've done something like this. Can you describe what the the [00:46:30] crowd's been like? Oh, fantastic. Everybody's really received it and really enthusiastic and supportive of, um, a lot of the causes and stuff that's going on here, which is pretty awesome. Why do you think, uh, parades like this are important? Um, because more often than not, people are really marginalised and stuff like that. You know, the LGBT community and stuff like that. I mean, for myself, I'm straight in that. So But, um, [00:47:00] I guess I figure it's you really need to celebrate who you are, and it's really great that there are opportunities to do that because it's very easy being straight and stuff like that. But I imagine it's quite hard to be out, you know, gay or whatnot. And being able to do that in, like a fantastic and loud way like this is really awesome. I'm Chelsea O'Reilly from a SB. And we are on Taranaki Street. Why is it important for a SB to be here? Um, because [00:47:30] we take, uh, diversity in the workplace. Really, really seriously. And we're incredibly proud of everyone that works for us. So to be here today is really important. And, yeah, it's a big part of who we are. So when you say you take it seriously, what what does a SB do? Um, we are a member of the Rainbow Tech. So we take Yeah, yeah, we're, um, quite heavily involved. Um, and we pride ourselves on ensuring that everyone who works for us feels comfortable and who they want to be. Is this the first pride you've been? Yeah. Yeah. This is the first time a SBS been part of it, actually. Absolutely amazing. And we will be back [00:48:00] next year. I'm Paul Eagle. I'm the member of Parliament for And we're here in the heart of Wellington City in the Wellington Pride parade for 2018. And can you describe the atmosphere for me? Oh, this is aesthetic stuff. People are excited. Uh, everyone's smiling. Uh, and look, it doesn't matter where you're from today. Everyone's here having a great time. Is this the first pride parade you've been in? This is my second parade. This is Wellington's second parade. And, uh, look, [00:48:30] I'm really proud of all of Wellington's communities. I've got many a friend in the rainbow community who has, over the many years I've been alive, talked through their struggles with me. I'm in a position now where I can continue the work of those who have gone before, and I'm really proud, and I want to do them proud and make sure that I'm all things are genuine about being here. Um so yeah, without a doubt, I'm here and I'll be here next year, too. I should say that the police siren we're hearing in the background [00:49:00] is from the Rainbow Police car. Well, I was in police and and I remember at the time a decade ago talking about these very things. Look, let's get out there as as police and and show that we can. And look, the car for those who aren't here is painted in rainbow stripes, and it just shows the police have come a long way, too. And we need those those public service entities who have histories, uh, to show that they, [00:49:30] too have moved on and progressed. Can you describe the crowd? Oh, look, it's really packed here. Uh, last year it was a smaller crowd. This year, it's a much bigger crowd. Next year will even be, um, bigger. I know people who have said we're not going to the hurricane first game tonight. We'd rather come to the Pride Festival, the Pride parade, and and those are the decisions that Wellington are actually making hurricanes versus crusaders. No, we're going to the pride parade. [00:50:00] Well, it sounds a very sensible decision. I think it is, I think, and this is the sort of place Wellington is. People are saying, Look, this is what makes Wellington different. Um, you you you don't have to be, um, in places like Auckland to, um celebrate your uniqueness or or what makes you different. Um, And look, as a former deputy mayor of Wellington, former city councillor, um, these are the sorts of initiatives that put Wellington on the map. But they do [00:50:30] it and I use this term before in an authentic and genuine manner. And someone said to me recently, Why is it taking Wellington so long to put a parade together? And I said, because sometimes the timing is not right and it's not doing it because someone's telling you to do it. It's doing it because you believe the time is right and and, uh and we can show our our our colours Um, honestly, Well, talking about showing our colours, uh, Wellington is gonna get probably New Zealand's first rainbow crossing once again, just like the police car. [00:51:00] You're seeing a visual statement, people being boldly proud, um, things that they wouldn't have done maybe even three years ago. Uh, so So times have moved on, and people are saying? Look, people aren't questioning whether that's good use of ratepayers money, taxpayers, dollars they say, Oh, look, this is just part of life living here in New Zealand. If somebody couldn't be here for whatever reason, what would What message would you give them? I would give them the message that we are here on your behalf celebrating your what makes you unique, [00:51:30] special, but also normal and part of Wellington City. Oh, really? [00:52:00] We 35.

IRN: 1187
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/opening_of_wellington_international_pride_parade_2018.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004526
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089820
TITLE: Opening of Wellington International Pride Parade (2018)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Gareth Farr; Georgina Beyer; Grant Robertson; Jan Logie; Jaye Glam Morgan; Justin Lester; Lady Tranise Bonet; Louisa Wall; Spanky Jackson; Tee Wineera
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Amanduh la Whore; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Carmen Rupe; Dana de Milo; Gareth Farr; Georgina Beyer; Grant Robertson; Jan Logie; Jaye Glam Morgan; Justin Lester; Lady Tranise Bonet; Lilith LaCroix; Louisa Wall; Melbourne; Pound nightclub; Pride Parade (Wellington); Pride parade; Rainbow flag; Robert Muldoon; Ruth Richardson; Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar; Shelley Te Waiariki Howard; Spanky Jackson; Tee Wineera; Tennyson Street; Tīwhanawhana; Wellington; Wellington City Council; bisexual; drag; gay; homophobia; homosexual law reform; intersex; karakia; lesbian; love; marriage equality; rainbow ribbon; safe sex; sex; takatāpui; trans; transgender; visibility
DATE: 10 March 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Tennyson Street, Tennyson Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the opening of the Wellington International Pride Parade. Note the small amount of audio distortion on the recording was due to the PA system distorting at the event.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: International Pro 2008. Oh, that's fantastic. My name is Spanky Jackson. I'm an original Wellington girl, but I've been in Melbourne for the last few years and it's such an honour to be here with you tonight and you're looking amazing. Big round of A. You're too kind. Alright, ladies and gentlemen, I'd just like to go through that. We would like to thank [00:00:30] some of our sponsors, and without them, we wouldn't be here today. So let's a round of applause first while we're up. Yeah, alright, so big. Thank you to Wellington City Council City Council. Thank you to the Mayor Justin Lister and his team Wellington City Council Suzanne Tamaki Maria Toby Akerson First Sovereign QT Museum Wellington General Merritt, Manager Garth The Gorgeous Chrissie Cummings Chris Le Region News Francis King and Madeleine [00:01:00] IOM Max Brewery Where the ravers it is this evening. Annette Farrington and her team, the Grand Foxy Ryan and her team Mae Eugene Perrett and her team, the French Bar Liz Christie, Andrew Arborist Nicole Harris and her team cut the mustard Liz Santos, Amber and her team film for change Helena Coolen and Horatio Ramirez and Jessie Wig Entertainment. Amanda Lahore, Planet Enterprises, [00:01:30] Clare Concrete Bar, Dixie McGregor, the Trinity Group BMW, Sandy McFadden and the team at zero. Give it up for our sponsors. Special mention also to Debbie Powell, David Brindle, Ed McCurley, Suzanne Taplin, Joe Kearns and all the many hundreds and the thousands and all of you beautiful people here this evening. Let's have a great time. [00:02:00] All right? So I would love it. I'd like to welcome to the stage, Al and he is gonna have a for our safe parade. Here we go. Welcome to the stage. [00:02:30] [00:03:00] [00:03:30] Will be out on [00:04:00] [00:04:30] Why do [00:05:00] fuck? No, I ladies [00:05:30] and gentlemen, please give it up A Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Alright, ladies. And that is not good. Alright, ladies and gentlemen, here to cut the colour of hot pink. We're going to cut the the rainbow flag today. I would like to welcome to the stage the gorgeous Georgina buyer. Thank [00:06:00] you, my darling. Good at the farm. No, We're gonna have a fabulous evening tonight. I. I expect if you sore heads in the morning. You're looking fabulous. We are out. We are proud. We are going to show our appreciation to our city for their fabulous acceptance. We're going to show our country we can do it as well as anyone. And, uh, all we can expect is for you to go out there and show that on on behalf [00:06:30] of all of us as you parade around the city. But right now, my job is now apparently the pink stands for sex. I haven't had any for a while, so come on. Um, and for self realisation. So on that note, I think most of us here are self realised. I might have been responsible for some [00:07:00] of it way in the past, as I found myself. And, of course, all of us are gonna have sex, aren't we? You worship? Please don't, um, you can join in. Um, it's quite alright. Just before I cut this fabulous ribbon, I'd like to acknowledge our, um, Minister of the Crown, our first out gay finance minister. I don't think Muldoon would have fitted that mould. Um, [00:07:30] Ruth Richardson. So Louis Wall and Jan Logie are also with us tonight and you'll see a bit of them a little later. In the meantime, let me cut my ribbon and keep this brief. Yeah, right, if it can. Who provided the blunt sisters? They're obviously from the bloody warehouse or a $2 shop. Um, with the top. Use the [00:08:00] the sure What does this mean? That we're tough nuts to trade. Here we go. This is be warned. All the other, um, ribbon covers. Thanks, Spanky. Ladies and gentlemen, give it up at Georgina. Next. I would [00:08:30] like to welcome to the stage acclaimed New Zealand composer, percussionist and drag diva Gareth Farr. For fucks sake. There's no way I'm getting up on that. Um, hello. I've decided to come out as likely Gareth and slightly Lilith, just to, you know, just for the diversity of you beautiful [00:09:00] people. So, um, if it's Gareth and Lilith, you might have to call me Gorie tonight. Gorilla. Beautiful name. Anyway, happy pride. And I adore you. And I I'm sorry, but I do have to go with my cards because I just turned 50 last week. That's it. Oh, for fuck's [00:09:30] sake. I could have said 60 anyway, tonight. Um, my colour from the rainbow flag is red. Red is obviously for love. Uh, but also, red is for the blood spilled on the streets. The thing is, homophobes find us threatening. [00:10:00] They are threatened by us. Homophobia is a fear. Um, it's an irrational fear and irrational. Fear comes from ignorance, and ignorance comes from a lack of exposure. So my answer to this is Wellington. Let's expose ourselves, do it whether that means walking [00:10:30] down the street hand in hand with your partner or whether that means walking down Queen Street or Courtney Place in a ball gown and a big old wig. Do it, That's what will make things change. And that's what will make homophobia be a thing of our dark, distant past. Happy fried, [00:11:00] gorgeous LGBTI girlfriends love you all. Oh, fuck! Fuck! So and we just test it. Alright, alright. Pardon? I got the sharp ones, but ladies and gentlemen, give it up for Gareth. [00:11:30] Next, I would like to welcome set designer and noted drag diva Lady Trenice Bone. Can you see me down here? Just It's a little bit hard to get up there. I actually was given the colour orange, but I didn't get told until about an hour ago, so I came into the wrong colour. Sorry about that, but here's my sister representing Orange. So we blue today to come [00:12:00] at me. I see you over there red at heart but blue on the outside Just joking. I'm here to represent my darling drag divas and sisters of Aotearoa. I cut my teeth at pound nightclub 17 fucking years ago, and I'm still hurting it. So thank you, melan Scottie for giving me a chance when I walked in there as a very undesirable little gay boy and a pair of heels and a bit of lipstick and look at [00:12:30] her now, look at I live in Auckland, of course, but I do call Wellington my home. I'm here all the time. Last year I worked on, uh, World of Wearable Arts. You may have heard that show. Just a little one. I was, of course, the director. Let's not keep that a secret. And, um, I went to to so I have a lot of roots here in, um So thank you for having me here today. I do wish you [00:13:00] all a very, very happy pride. Stay. Stay safe. Have fun. Last year I worked on the Auckland Pride parade and designed the um ending HIV float. So it's very important to me. Do do all of those things test often. Stay safe and use protection. There we go. So happy pride had the best time. I'll be on the float, so I better run and cut my ribbon. I'm orange. Hopefully these scissors work today. [00:13:30] 123 Yeah, Yeah! Thank you, my darling. Happy pride Everybody Count on ladies and gentlemen, give it up for Lady Trenice. Next. I would like to welcome labour MP Louisa Wall to the stage, please. And her colour is yellow, representing sunlight and enlightenment. [00:14:00] Uh, I've taken this really seriously, so please bear with me. But I've got a little and it starts off about our amazing rainbow flag, which is a symbol of hope and peace. So I have the pleasure of speaking to yellow and our flag of solidarity. It represents sunlight [00:14:30] and sunshine. We will not be in the dark anymore. It represents enlightenment. It also represents remembrance. So I want to take this opportunity to remember our fire. And this time last year I shared a car with her in the Pride parade and also last week. I want to acknowledge that as a representative of the car float. The incredible [00:15:00] work that Carmen did because they are our heroes, our pioneers, our ancestors, who have taken us from the darkness into today's beautiful and bright light. Yellow also represents clarity of thought, wisdom, orderliness and positive and abundant energy. So as we must strive for the ability through loving, caring and nurturing environments for our LGBTI Q plus community to [00:15:30] be proud of their range identity and our rainbow identities. So whether we're lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans intersex, questioning or other gender identities or sexual orientations, Queer third gender to spirit to know who we are, where we have come from, and be aware and proud of our to strive through collective action, for [00:16:00] understanding of the aims and values of cooperation and collaboration. We need our advocates and to form alliances built on mutual respect and trust. And I'd like to acknowledge our Mayor Justin and our amazing Wellington City Council team, Amanda and the Whip Team and our LGBTI community for combining for coming together in that spirit of cooperation for this second we [00:16:30] event. So it's been my absolute pleasure to represent represent us here tonight, and so all of us be strong be steadfast. Be willing. Happy pride Wellington. Ladies and gentlemen, Louisa Wall [00:17:00] Next, I would like to welcome Green Party MP Jan Loy looking fabulous today. Ah, you've all gone all out. I love it. I put on my subtle outfit tonight. Um, I'm not sure if you can tell what colour I'm going to be. Um, but it might be green. So it's really lovely to be here with you all tonight [00:17:30] for Wellington's second Pride parade and our first international pride parade. Um, And I my ribbon is green, which represents nature and harmony, and I've just got to acknowledged to and Kevin in particular for looking gorgeous and representing that point so perfectly because there have been some [00:18:00] attempts by some people to suggest that our sexualities and gender identities and beings aren't natural. Well, screw that. We are who we are, and we are proud to be who we are. And how could you resist this gorgeousness? And why would you want to? Exactly. [00:18:30] And for me, I do want to because I know there has been some tension in recent times, within or from outside the community in relation to our diversity, and I just want to acknowledge that for me, that sense of harmony and our rainbow is all of us being able to step into our spaces and be truly who we are. And that there is pride [00:19:00] in being gay and that there is pride in being lesbian and that there is pride in being bisexual and that there is pride in being Trans and that there is pride in being. And there is pride in being queer and pan and who we are. We have a right to stand proud, and the world is a hell of a lot better when we [00:19:30] can. Yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, Jan Logie. Next welcome to the stage, Wellington Fashion and icon Jay Glam Morgan. Hey, how was everybody? I wanted to be on the stage so you could all see my gorgeous outfit. Um, [00:20:00] I'm here this evening to celebrate us all being as one and us, um, being a part of a But mainly I'm here to represent my Trans brothers and sisters and, um, on a not a dampening note on a lovely note, I'm also here to represent my Auntie Donna. Um, she's here with us. I can feel her. We've recently lost her. So yeah, to Donna. Everyone, Um and I just [00:20:30] wanted to keep this really short and sweet. I'm absolutely honoured to be up here, and I love you all. Have a really awesome pride. Love you, ladies and gentlemen, give it up for you again next to the stage Labour MP. Grant Robertson, please come on down. [00:21:00] I killed it. It is just a fantastic sight to stand here in Wellington and just take a look around everybody at what's around you and beside you. This is pride in our community. You look fabulous. A fantastic turnout tonight. I just want to say two quick things. The first of those is on a night like this. I always like to reflect on who's gone before us. The people who didn't have the opportunity to march in a pride parade but stood [00:21:30] up for our community. The people who fought for homosexual law reform the people who continue to fight for rights for our trans community the people who have fought all the way through decades to make sure that we can stand here tonight. I'm proud of those people. And on that I want to make my own special reference tonight, not only to Dana de Milo, who we miss so much, but also to Shelley. Shelley, Toki Howard, who we lost this year. Um, Shelley would have been here. Shelley would have been proud [00:22:00] to Shelley and the rest of the trans community. I want to say we've made so much progress for the rights of the rainbow community, but there's still more to do for our trans community. And we all need to take up that challenge on behalf of our rainbow community. So let's do that. Ladies and gentlemen have a fantastic pride. I'm proud of this city. It's a city where we've moved past the idea of tolerance to one where we accept and we revel in our diversity. Be proud. Happy pride. [00:22:30] Uh, ladies and gentlemen, Grant Robertson, please. Alright. And last, but certainly not least the gorgeous Justin Lester. If you'd make your way to the stage if it wasn't for the Wellington City Council and Justin Lesser, we would not be here, So give him a big round of applause. Come on. Met. [00:23:00] Uh, thank you, Spanky. Uh uh. I. I do want to acknowledge and reflect on those words by Grant and Louisa and Jan and Georgina. Uh, ge Georgina. Thank you for the invitation. I look forward to taking you up on that later on. Uh, we are incredibly proud in this city to support this event. And I'm here on behalf of all Wellingtons. Wellington has always been at the forefront of the rainbow community in highlighting rainbow issues. Whether it be homosexual [00:23:30] law reform going back 32 years or more recently, marriage, equality things aren't perfect. And it's our job to make them to strive, to improve them and to make them even better. And that's why we're here today. I want to make sure that you're loud. I'm proud this evening. You look fantastic. We love the colour. The city is right behind you and I'm happy to support it. Now gives me great pleasure to officially open the Wellington International [00:24:00] Pride Parade in 2018. Ladies and gentlemen Justin Lesser. Alright, It's your time. It's our time. Wellington, make yourself shine. Wellington International Pride 2018 Here we go.

IRN: 1186
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/a_fresh_start_for_human_rights.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004525
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089819
TITLE: A Fresh Start for Human Rights
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Aimee Eastwood; Claire Miller; Jem Traylen; Jim Waters; Linda Wallace; Maggie Shippam
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; Aimee Eastwood; Annette King; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bill of Rights Act (1990); Census (2018); Claire Miller; District Health Board (DHB); Employment Relations Act (2000); Geoffrey Palmer; Human Rights Act (1993); Human Rights Commission; Human Rights Review Tribunal; Iceland; InsideOUT Kōaro; International Women's Day; Jacinda Ardern; Jem Traylen; Jim Waters; Julie Anne Genter; Linda Wallace; Maggie Shippam; Me Too movement; Medical Appeal Board; Outerspaces (Wellington); Parliament buildings; Privacy Act (1993); Public Service Association (PSA); Rainbow Wellington; Social Security Appeal Authority; St Andrew's on the Terrace; Statistics New Zealand; To Be Who I Am (2008); Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948); Waikato; Waikato Queer Youth; Wellington; Wellington Pride Festival (2018); Whitireia New Zealand; Youthline; activism; beneficiaries; benefits; census; common law; deadname; disability; discrimination; employment; equal employment opportunities; equality; exclusion; forum; gender expression; gender identity; gender pay gap; gender standard (Statistics New Zealand); gender-affirming surgery; health rights; health system; hormone replacement therapy (HRT); human rights; intersex; journalism; justice; law; nurse; pay equity; prison; pronouns; religion; robots; sexual orientation; state sector; teacher; trans; transgender; transgender activism; transphobia; tribunal; unemployment; unions; volunteer
DATE: 7 March 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: St Andrew's on the Terrace, 30 The Terrace, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the public forum A Fresh Start for Human Rights, held during Wellington's Pride festival at St Andrew's on 7 March 2018.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So I'm Jim Tray. Um, I'm a transgender activist. I've been involved in the Wellington community for about three years. Um, currently on the board of Rainbow Wellington. And, um, I'll get into later. While I was inspired to give this talk. Um, I'll just leave it there. Should we go around this way? Yeah. And I'm Jim Water. So I'm also a I'm Linda Wallace, and I'm [00:00:30] an from the I work with. Thank you. Um, my name's Claire Miller. I just have an interest in human rights and inclusiveness, and I have a a transgender nephew who I'm very proud of. And, um, Yeah, my name is Amy Eastwood. I'm, um, a student journalist with Polytechnic. [00:01:00] Um, I'm also transgender as a footnote. Uh, my name is Maggie. Um, I use the their pronouns. Um, I'm a volunteer with youth line and set out and outer spaces, um, and have volunteered with them for about six years. OK, cool. OK, so I'm gonna move things along because, um, we've got just under an hour just to see if he wants to go to the other thing that's on tonight [00:01:30] can make it. Um, I've basically divided this into um, five or six parts. And I thought since it's a small group rather than me like talk for half an hour and then having a discussion at the end, I thought it would be quite OK, like I'll go through each bit and then stop. And then anybody who wants to make a comment or ask a question or give feedback or start a discussion we can do that. Um, we'll just keep an eye on the time as we go. So this is about [00:02:00] 10 minutes for each little part. So the the origin of this presentation, um, I'm obviously coming from a transgender perspective, but the idea is is that this is really just a case study which says something about our entire human rights system, which basically affects everybody. So I'm also going to talk about a couple of other perspectives on human rights in New Zealand. But I'm gonna start off with the one that, um, that inspired this talk. So, um, 10 years [00:02:30] ago, the Human Rights Commission had an inquiry, um, into discrimination experienced by transgender and intersex people in New Zealand. And, um, this is their quite well known report to be who I am, which they published exactly 10 years ago last month. Um, and this is really, I think, a key quote from the report. It's basically said, um, the lives of trans people in New Zealand are marked by discrimination, severe [00:03:00] barriers to equitable health services and limited legal and public recognition of who they are. So it's quite quite a quite a, um, a damning finding, um, about where New Zealand was at 10 years ago. Um, and I think the reason to start off why it was particularly damning back in 2008 is that basically parliament had outlawed discrimination against transgender people as well as other minorities in 1993. [00:03:30] So this is 17 years later, and basically, we've got an official government, um, all independent, um, commission report saying, Well, actually, transgender people still experiencing discrimination on an everyday basis, and it's not just, um you know, other New Zealanders who are discriminating against them. They had a whole lot of recommendations, um, for a whole raft of government agencies, so basically crown. You know, agents of the Crown government [00:04:00] departments were also, um, quite discriminatory in their policies and and their systems and structures as well. So, um, so I think that's quite a big indictment on on our human rights system in itself. But that was 10 years ago. And, um, the next slide. Um, it was basically a quote from a medical journal article that was published last year when, um, some of the leading medical professionals in this country undertook a survey of, of [00:04:30] all the district health boards to ask them about surgical services being provided to transgender people. Now, in this case, they're not talking about genital reconstruction surgeries. They're talking about a whole. There's a whole range of surgeries that, um, transgender people might need access to, like, um um, chest surgeries. Or there's a whole range of surgeries. So and they are all surgeries that district boards or hospitals would be providing to other kinds of people for other kinds of situations like, [00:05:00] um, cancer or all kinds of reasons. And, um, what that survey found was that basically, even though those surgeries could be provided to transgender people and we're being provided to non transgender people, um, in most cases, they weren't being offered, um, to transgender people, so there was clear discrimination like and this is Well, back then. It was nearly 10 years after the human rights, um, inquiry report. [00:05:30] So, um and that's just one example, Um, probably looking at our most important issue that transgender people face, which is inequities in the health system. But it's just one of many examples of how basically nothing really changed as a result of of that report, Um, in Rainbow Wellington. Um, I did some research where I did a postal. I did a survey. I emailed all the DH BS and most of the government agencies to ask them. First of all, what was the [00:06:00] system that they set up to make sure that they complied with the requirements of the Human Rights Act? And the answer for most of them was after a very long paragraph like this, I said, saying, Well, actually, we don't have one. And the other thing I asked them was, Did they do anything? What? What did they do? Um, in response to the, um, to the to be who I am reporting again after, you know, re writing by basically saying, Well, we didn't really do anything much at all, If anything so so [00:06:30] This is really what I'm saying is a first case study into human rights system. How is it that Parliament can say discrimination against transgender people? Um is outlawed in this country. 10 years later, we have an official inquiry that says, Well, it's still happening. Government agencies are doing it. They should all be doing, um, these changes to make sure that we get rid of discrimination and then 10 years after that again, nothing has changed so that [00:07:00] there seems to be, um, quite strong evidence that there's something seriously flawed about our human rights system. Um, at least the legally driven aspect of it. Um, So So that's my first case study. Um, would anybody else like to share or comment on that? Um, I'm actually looking into this at the moment. Uh, it's actually much better than Trans, but I'll start off with talking about Trans. I've been chasing up Statistics [00:07:30] New Zealand about the census and what the hell they plan to do about it. Um, but in my, uh, badgering, I've also found that it's not just trans people. It's a whole lot of other minority groups, like people with disabilities, mental illnesses, all sorts of things. And I'm beginning to come to the conclusion I correct me if I'm wrong that none of these changes can actually happen until they actually know how many of us there actually are. And so it seems to me [00:08:00] that this problem with the census is actually right at the root of these changes. Not happening. Um, and I, I frankly don't think that Statistics New Zealand are really taking this seriously enough. Um, but I was wondering if anyone else in the group has any thoughts about whether I'm Overblowing this as part of the problem or if I'm bang on the money with that, Um, I suspect that you've probably hit the nub in terms of [00:08:30] that being the most logical centre for the gaining of that knowledge about various minority groups. I mean, personally, I think the census this year was just, you know, I don't know what the hell they're expecting to get out of it, but there were a whole lot of various groups in society that were, I think, going to be potentially disenfranchised by the census, Um or just not count it, which was the same thing to me. Um and [00:09:00] probably to most of you here as well. Um, I have a concern about the way that the census was worded about the fact that it didn't appear to be entirely inclusive. Um, and I would have thought that we were sophisticated enough as a nation that whoever designed that census, you'd have to think if you got your head under a rock because the reasoning behind them, not the option and pre me if I'm wrong was the fact that [00:09:30] from the last time that they did it, they thought it wasn't like a real number, right? Yeah, The reason they gave me was something like that. And they said that in April they're going to ask gender identity and sexual orientation as part of the General Social survey. But I've heard conflicting information that they're going to include sexual orientation and not gender identity. So at the at this very moment, I'm nagging them by email, trying to get an interview, and they don't seem [00:10:00] to enthusiastic about that. They do get stats from other other bodies and other other sources, but I just can't like, you know, I can't understand. I'm sorry. I am sorry. Amy. I. I just can't understand. I would have thought the census would have been an great opportunity to capture that. What do they mean by not capturing the numbers? Maybe, um, these that the, [00:10:30] um The amount, like from the last census, the amount of people that, um, sort of answered, I'm not sure if there was, like, another little box or something that, um, people were lying or if it wasn't, like, an accurate number, I think, um, so what my understanding of what's been going on with the census? I mean, for a start, with the Human Rights Act being passed in 1993 and 1994 the State Department should have started a project to include us and other Rambo [00:11:00] minorities in the census. But they didn't. And, um And then, you know, 10 years ago after that report came out to be who I am again that they should have thought Oh, well, we better get on with including transgender people in the census. But again, they didn't. It was it was only because of constant lobbying and campaigning by the rainbow community. That and in fact, I think it was just through the normal consultation process, getting feedback from the normal going out of the community. We're going to do a census [00:11:30] in a couple of years. What do you think we should do about it? Getting that feedback Or you need to include sexual orientation and gender identity that they finally about, um, a year or two ago got on with trying to put us in the census. And, of course, um, they What I understand is they went out maybe about a year ago, and they did a test run of the new questions, like not just us, but, um, you know, there's some new stuff in there about Maori housing and all this. So they field tested all the questions [00:12:00] and they weren't satisfied with the responses. They got back on gender identity and sexual orientation. They thought, um, they're going to have to keep reworking it, but it wasn't ready to go in the census, so Well, that might sound OK, but then begs the question. Why did you leave it so long? Why didn't you start working on this years ago and anticipate, You know, you might have to have two or three goals at coming up with test questions to to, you know, before you it [00:12:30] was sorted out. So to me, I just felt really quite hurt as a transgender person. And, um, I still haven't actually decided whether or not I'm actually going to participate in the census because I just feel like I'm just thinking this is symbolically speaking. I just feel like I'm being totally excluded by the country, which I'm supposed to belong to that like, um like I I've been approaching us, putting my transgender identity aside [00:13:00] and approaching it purely as a journalist. And let me tell you that journalists need those stats. So when I'm doing a story when I'm doing a story not just on, um, transgender issues but disabled issues or sexual orientation issues, aids, all sorts of stuff. I just can't find the information. And and so and and from what I've seen and I've been following this quite closely is when people who are intersex or gender, variant [00:13:30] or transgendered, or any other, like some people with disabilities, write to stats and try to get answers about how to answer this thing. They they get varying responses like stats and doesn't even know how they're supposed to be filling it out. So what? I did personally and I don't care if I get in trouble for it is I just take female. Um, put my dead name and my name I use in the female, and I'm just [00:14:00] like, yeah, you guys can figure it out. If you're not gonna give me a box, I'll make you figure it out. Um, it's tough because as aside from obviously, I feel excluded as a trans person. But even looking at it from a more practical point of view healthcare, Um, as a trans woman who's on H RT, whose body is full of oestrogen, not testosterone, for example, I might get breast cancer. [00:14:30] Mhm. So wouldn't it make more sense for me to take female than male? And so you run into all these things which are not. They are a matter of human rights, but they're not just a matter of being left out. They're actually really important practical issues, um, about health care. But also there's also prisons and employment and all sorts of stuff. Um, and I think James is right. They should [00:15:00] have got onto this. And what I what? I really can't figure out. And maybe I'm just being Duff is how you can have a religion section where you write something in and people write in Jedi. And then you're worried that someone might write in something funny, like trans human Martian cyborg for the gender orientation. I mean, it doesn't It seems a little it seems like a cop out to me. OK, so I just want to wrap up that first case study because the point to remember is is what I'm trying [00:15:30] to get it. OK, obviously, transgender people face all these issues the healthcare system and not counting the census and all that. But how is it that parliament has outlawed discrimination? And yet, you know, a department of the Crown can go on year after year, just, you know, blatantly ignoring that part of the law and and get away with it. That's that's the issue that I really want to get at is. Is that why? How is it that our human rights system really is so weak and it's not, really, you know, delivering as it should. Government protects itself. Of course, by [00:16:00] that government departments can be challenged. Um, well, I I'm not. I'm not a law specialist, so I can't really speak to that. OK, so my next case study, um, tomorrow is is International Women's Day. So I thought I would talk about an issue that's that's relevant to that. So, as you know, um, in fact, had quite a lot of publicity in the last few years. Um, there's a gender pay gap that, um, various political parties have proposed solutions to [00:16:30] this draught bills flying around all over the place as to how to solve this problem. But again, I want to come back to It's a similar story, um, discriminating, Um, in terms of the gender pay gap was outlawed by Parliament in New Zealand, and I haven't got my phone in front of me, but I believe it was 1972. So it has actually been against the law to have basically a gender pay gap that you can't explain away from something other than this person is more qualified than that person. [00:17:00] Because the research shows that 20% of the gap can be explained by differences in, um, that you might be able to justify, like, you know, if if women take five years off work to have a family. They've got five years less work experience, so they only only all that sort of stuff only explains 20% of the gap. There's 80% of that wage gap that research. After the researcher says you can't explain it any other way than it's just blatant discrimination. So again, this is something that has been against the law for since 1972. [00:17:30] Um, I'm not good with math, but that's something like 40 or so years ago. So that's yeah. So how is it that, um, that again this thing just carries on year after year after year? Until finally, um, I think it was 2014 or thereabouts? A couple of very interesting court cases were brought by, um, someone who basically, let's say, works in the rest home [00:18:00] industry and basically said, OK, so I'm getting paid the same as a man doing this exact job. But the reason I'm getting paid less on average than most men is because most people who do this job are women, so that isn't equal pay for equal work. You're just you're discriminating against the whole industry, and, um, and those court cases, um, were actually quite successful. And that's what's led to this whole, um, protocol change. Now, first, the government, um, negotiated a package [00:18:30] deal and proposed some bills, and I don't know how far they got from Parliament and then the incoming government, um, has now I think both Labour and the greens have got their own, um, proposed policy solutions. But the only reason we're talking about this is simply because one person is talking to the union and says, Well, let's let's let's take them to court. Why did it take 40 years for us to suddenly get around enforcing a law? Um, that that that women had already spent like, half a century campaigning for in the first place. So [00:19:00] it's again, part of the story is that, you know, we have to wait a long, long, long, long time, um, to to get any kind of justice in terms of human rights. Um, so again, would anybody like to share? Um, on this other case study to do with the gender pay gap? Um, I'm just gonna put forward. I think this is rubbish, but one of the, um, [00:19:30] one of the defences that's been put forward is that women tend to work lower paying jobs. But, um, but from what I've found out, um, no, this is within a job. This is within two people working the same job, but we're going to hear that excuse quite often. Yeah, well, one of the graphs I would have like to show you is, um, basically the average weekly wage for men and for women. And, [00:20:00] um, there's about a $4 difference and you can see the graph. I had a graph that goes from 1990 up to about a couple of years ago, and it's kind of interesting. Um, the gap has narrowed a little bit, but again, one of the interesting things that you can see is two thirds of the decrease in the gap isn't because suddenly, society became more enlightened and started paying, you know, women's jobs more two thirds of the gap simply because wages have actually [00:20:30] basically decreased for men. So basically male dominated industries are all like manufacturing all those sorts of jobs. Um, basically, wage rates have been in decline for a generation, and that's the reason that that women are basically a big part of the reason women are catching up to me is that men are going backwards because of how the economic system is, um, so and we're still left with that. But we're still left with a persistent gap of about three or $4 on average per hour. [00:21:00] Um, that, as I said, the academics can only really explain maybe about 20% of that through things that kind of perhaps make reasonable sense other than pure discrimination. Um, the third thing that I want to talk about are our what are called tribunals. Now what is a tribunal? A tribunal is something that kind of looks like a court, but it's not. It's it's, it's It's slightly less formal. Um, it's supposed to, um, deal [00:21:30] with disputes in a way that's lower cost than going to court. And they've been set up to to cover various specialist things, including having a dispute over your rights under the Human Rights Act. So if you had a serious dispute on the Human Rights Act and it failed at mediation, it would go to something called the Human Rights Review Tribunal. That's one of dozens of of tribunals that impinge on human rights such as, Um, there's a tribunal that's around the Privacy act. Um, [00:22:00] there's another one. if you're a beneficiary and you're in dispute with work and income again, those disputes will go to a tribunal. Now. One of the things that's, um, that's blown up over the last few years is that these tribunals are getting longer and longer in terms of how long they take to settle matters. So can you imagine like you're on a beneficiary, You're an argument with an income, and you're saying like I should [00:22:30] be getting an extra $20 a week, which, for example, which, if you, a beneficiary could actually be, you know, a huge deal. But can you imagine waiting for over a year to get through that system to be found out? Actually, you were right. You you do deserve to get an extra $20 a week. And now finally, we're going to write out this check and you sort of go Well, that would have been great a year ago, but I finally just got off the dole the other day and I'm back in work. So you know that money I can put in my savings account, but it didn't really help me when I needed it. So we [00:23:00] have these kinds of issues in the human rights system. It's even worse. You can wait typically now two years, to even get an initial hearing. And like three years, it's now gone up three years now to actually get a decision. So, like you've faced some, really, quite if it's going if it's going through that system, this is a pretty, um, very serious case of discrimination with with quite substantial evidence supporting it. So it's, um, [00:23:30] and to wait three years to actually, you know, get justice from, Let's say, an employer who discriminate against you or a hospital or whatever it is or it could be, um, it could be that you were handicapped and there was something that a school was supposed to do. And, you know, you spent three years with this hanging over you before it got sorted. Can you imagine the impact on people's lives and a tribunal that set up to discuss human rights, basically exacerbating those [00:24:00] human rights? Well, it's gotten so bad that the chair of the not the Human Rights Commission, but the human Rights Review Tribunal. Um, basically, has he He's been furiously writing to to the minister's response bill. You know that every year for the last several years and now, um, made public his criticisms of the tribunal was almost that exact exact comment. It's basically [00:24:30] it's like it makes the whole system pointless if you can't help out these vulnerable people, people on the tribunal. I think basically what he is saying is that so presumably they would have divisions of the tribunal, so they didn't all have to sit together for the one case. I don't know if that's what the intention was, but, um, well, basically, it's in this case. It's essentially about resourcing. The government wasn't prepared to give them the money that they needed to get all the people they needed to hear the cases within a reasonable time [00:25:00] frame something maybe I don't know a lot about, like, tribunals and that sort of thing. But in terms of like bias, how do they screen the tribunal against things like that? For example, like if you're going to the tribunal for a gender pay gap, or like you know, a woman, um receives discrimination, and she goes to a tribunal that's filled with men. Um, like, what do they do in that sort of? I have absolutely [00:25:30] no idea. And it's also been raised as an issue. It's like, um, who who gets to a point that people who sit on these tribunals is that a fair process? They tend to be just, like, kind of mates of the government of the day. What's the process? Is it something that's going to be set up? So it is a fair and inclusive? I might be something to that because I work with a tribunal before a tribunal. I should. But I have some interaction with a tribunal completely unrelated to any of these matters. By the way, [00:26:00] tribunals Somebody who wants to sit on a tribunal. Um, my understanding is they need to apply through the Ministry of Justice. So there'll be, um, a vacancy noted on a on a tribunal board for want of a better expression, and then the the applicants will apply, and they have to. My understanding is they go through a relatively rigorous process, Um, through this application process, they have to show, um, you know, good [00:26:30] legal academic application. They have to show knowledge in relevant areas of the law. And they have to. There are tests for bias and neutrality as well when they go through that process. So I can only speak to the tribunal that I work with. But my understanding is that that's a relatively generic approach across tribunals. All right, so I don't know if I've answered it. [00:27:00] Thank you. Thank you. Um, so that's just a very quick look at, you know, three issues that are going on with our human rights system, which which tend to suggest that, um, our human rights system is not really working as we would like it to work that, um, you know, discrimination is not something that, um even though it's been outlawed, is easily going [00:27:30] to be made to go away, because no effort has really been put into, um, the enforcement side. So we basically, um I kind of guess my key messages is we have these nice words written into Parliament, but they're just kind of empty words on paper for a lot of people. Um, maybe there are some people who, you know they get through, you know, the tribunal system and they eventually get justice. But on on the whole. Like when? If if, If these tribunal systems are taking so long, [00:28:00] and if government departments can simply ignore anything that comes out of the human rights system, then then obviously, um, we can't rely on on that system to basically make much, much of an advance in our human rights. In fact, most of the changes that we've really seen, for example, coming back to transgender people because that's the area I really know about. I don't think you can really attribute it to any of these things like sure, this report came out. But But I kind of think like if the report hadn't come out then the few advances [00:28:30] that we've seen probably would have happened anyway because of the ongoing pressure from the various, you know, activist groups and so on and because, you know, public perceptions and attitudes are slowly changing. But it's not really happening because of any of those institutions. So that's why I thought, Well, I mean, the system is so broken. We really need to start having a conversation about Isn't it time? You know, we really, you know, almost started again with with working out How How [00:29:00] is it that we can actually, um, do something? Is it just that, you know, there's nothing that we can do? Well, I've got my I've got a final case study from another country called Iceland, which is going to end things on a more positive note. So Iceland, if you don't know much about them, um, you're probably aware that most Nordic countries are reasonably culturally enlightening societies, and and, um, you know, have really good welfare states and all that sort of thing and perhaps reasonable attitudes towards women. Well, Iceland, apparently, [00:29:30] um, from a lot of different assessments is kind of like a world leader in women's rights. In fact, they first elected, um directly elected a female president in 1980. So, in fact, they even had There's a big cultural moment they had in 1975 where literally they had a national women's strike, which literally meant, uh, 90% of women not only did not go to work, they refused to do any child care or cooking or community work or anything for one day, and it completely threw the country into turmoil. [00:30:00] And this kind of this is what's kind of pack behind. Um, this cultural change which lead to them, you know, electing a woman as the head of the state a few days later. And other things which are quite world leading now, Um, and and on various assessments. So, like, um, nearly half of the MP S are women. Um, nearly half of of their seats on company boards are women. Um, nearly half of management positions are women, um, [00:30:30] and so on. And so I can go through all these stats and Iceland basically, you know, kind of leads the world on on most of them now, but they also have a gender pay gap, and it's and it's quite a substantial pay gap. It's like around 14 or 15% depending on how you measure it, which is kind of similar league as as our own, um, and and they've also got equal pay legislation, which they've had even longer. They've had equal pay legislation since I think 1961. So they've had it even 10 years longer than [00:31:00] we have. And again, despite that culture, this this gender pay gap persisted, and, um, but it's I think it's a very good illustration of, um, I think an important principle of where there is a will. There is a way. So they decided, like, this pay gap is unacceptable. How can we actually change it? We've got these pretty words on paper saying there shall not be a pay gap, but obviously there is one. So basically what What they did with their law, which came into [00:31:30] effect at the start of this year, was they said, OK, we got this saying, like, there shouldn't be a pay gap. Now we're gonna add in all these enforcement mechanisms to make sure that actually, that's what actually happens. So this has been in development for a few years about, um, five years ago, they got together and created this voluntary, um, standard where, um, a business could get audited rigorously, independently audited to show [00:32:00] that they were paying equal pay and then they could advertise. Hey, we're an equal pay company. So it's a bit like what we've done here in a with like the living wage you can be, you can be accredited as a living wage employer. Um, I think although the process for this equal pay thing is probably even more rigorous and more substantial. Um, so this came in as a thing that you can show you've got these kind of, um, you know, ethical credentials as a as an employer, and then, um so just recently, they started. Well, [00:32:30] um, that kind of took us so far, but the, you know, the gap is still there, and another experiment they ran was they brought in quotas for, um, women on company boards. And I don't know quite how the system works, but that is kind of the reason why they went from, like, 20% of seats on company boards being women to It's nearly, I think it's up around the mid 40 44%. Something like that. It was essentially, um as I said, Like without that kind of legal [00:33:00] framework, kind of pushing things along as well. You're not really going to get there. So they kind of they learned from that. And they said, Well, what's the equivalent thing we can do with this gender pay gap? Or we've got this kind of voluntary system. Why don't we make it compulsory? And that's essentially what they've done. So, um, when it comes into effect properly, if if you, um, are an employer, Um, and it starts off the big companies and employers, like ones that have more than about. I think 75 employees have got a year [00:33:30] to get themselves, you know, sorted and audited. They have to basically, they have to prove basically, the onus of proof is now on the employer to show that they're on equal pay. I mean, they can't just go. Well, look, you know, there's a pay gap there, but it's all because, you know, like, the women aren't haven't got university degrees or something they've actually got You gotta have robust evidence, and you've got to be independently certified by somebody who's qualified to show that Yes, you are. You you've proven that you're, [00:34:00] um you're on equal pay. Otherwise, you get not only you get named and shame, but you get fined something like $700 a day. So the big the big, um, the big employers, like government departments and hospitals and the and the, you know, bigger private sector employers have got one year to get this into play, and then the, um, remaining employers who've got 25 or more employees have got have got, um, basically four years, including this year to, um sort [00:34:30] themselves out. And so for me, that illustrates the idea that, like these problems can be solved if you want to solve them. And it's not about in a sense, they really haven't introduced any more, right. They're still saying it's still equal pay for equal work. It's the same right as you had before. But it actually it's going to include an enforcement system that actually that's got some hope of actually working. And I think that's basically you know, the missing element is that we'd rather [00:35:00] had words on paper that we know aren't really going to be enforced rigorously. That's how we get these kind of laws on the books. But what we really need to start looking at what is more of a robust system, um, doesn't necessarily have to follow that sort of model, But I think it's that sort of thinking like, you know, this problem can be solved if we want to solve it. Um, So before I move on to a more general discussion, um, has anybody like to share on what I've just said about this sort of Icelandic [00:35:30] model, I presume. Equal pay free for work is more likely to apply in the public service, as a matter of fact. Or would that be a naive assumption compared with the private sector? Are you talking about in New Zealand, or, um, I honestly wouldn't know. Um and I don't know if I'd make that assumption because I think you got to remember, like, for example, who are the biggest employers of [00:36:00] nurses? Yeah, you know, sort of a lot of the female dominated occupations are actually state sector occupations, maybe even teachers. Now, they reckon not much recruitment of men because of child abuse issues and all sorts of things that men shy away from teaching. Now, I don't know if that's correct, but that's what's been reported. There's an awful lot of work down in this area, isn't there? I mean, I mean, in terms of, like, the union movements, um, [00:36:30] and and I send you a call. And it came time saying this was the lack of the lack of advancement in this area was the thing that was frustrating to him. Um, perhaps it was the frustration on the number of MP S, Uh, and the gender gap within MP. But I, I seem to recall that that being one of her main motivations and being active and you think that P A would have taken the matter up Well, I I [00:37:00] mean, you've got an active thing going on. I'm not quite sure what, what what it is. But it's been going for years. Sorry. The states on the gender pay gap. I mean, where do they come from? It You find the gap like you can define it. Um I mean, there's, you know, there's different ways of looking at it, like you can just get the average hourly pay rate, for example, or, you know, there's lots of different ways of [00:37:30] defining it. But the stats will come from stats and Z. Essentially, you know, they they collect all the data on on what people are being paid. Um, they do a special employment. They quite a farm does lots and lots of surveys. In fact, as was briefly mentioned, this one coming out starting actually next month, um, the National Social Survey, where, as I understand it, they are going to include a question on sexual orientation. But they haven't committed to including a question [00:38:00] on gender identity. And they kept very quiet about about that. Um, so, yeah, transgender people miss out again? It seems to be a bit of a thing. Um, we'll be sending off a furious letter, won't you? No. I'm gonna be nagging. Yeah, businesses get surveyed all the time and have to handle all sorts of data, which which then gets cleared by the State Department. And that's where this [00:38:30] comes from. One of the interest for me at the other end of the gender pay gap is that often, um, women don't actually realise that they are. There is a gap in an organisation where they might get sometimes talking about this gender pay gap. Yeah, but I wouldn't have a quote because, um, one of my one of the the clauses in my employment contract is that I don't talk about [00:39:00] but but also there's another aspect to that in that New Zealanders, like all English speaking countries, I don't know how Americans are like about this, but we don't like talking about how much we get paid. It's considered to be quite rude in our culture. So very often you can be doing the same job as someone else, and you'd never even think to ask them how to be nosy from you. It's funny how these some of these customers whose interests they actually see. [00:39:30] Um, as I understand it, most of the policy proposals that are on the table are about kind of addressing that part of it, which is like it will show in this business. The gender pay gap is 8%. I don't think that's any of the proposals are going as far as the isolated proposal, which is like, If you've got a gap, you know you're in trouble. Um, well, actually, to be technical, The Iceland thing isn't saying you can have a gap, but you got to basically be able to robustly prove why. [00:40:00] You know, you might have a 5% gap, how that can be justified. For example, Um, I think it's quite interesting, like I get really interested in how Hollywood, um, people talk about actresses getting paid less than men, and there's also the me too movement. But it's quite interesting how like Hollywood is The problems in Hollywood are actually indicative of the whole of society but it's in Hollywood that we noticed [00:40:30] in first. The media focus on Hollywood because they're prettier attracts a lot more extroverts. Speak out. All right. So, um, the next thing I want to talk about is what would a fresh start for human rights actually look like? And so I went back to the original United Nations Declaration on Human Rights, which dates back to [00:41:00] the period straight after World War Two, which New Zealand was one of the first to sign up to that. And when you look through those rights, you realise some of those rights have been written into our law, like the Bill of Rights Act and the Human Rights Act and the Privacy Act and various other acts and so on. And some of the rights haven't. And it's kind of some of the ones that have actually been written into law. The works, it's not actually like, Oh, that's great. Well, now we've got this right not to be arrested without due calls and that sort of thing. But actually [00:41:30] we've had that right for 1000 years, anyway, Actually, before the Bill of Rights Act came along, and the Human Rights Act came along. Um, there There was already existing law that gave us most of those kind of basic civil rights, like, you know, due process and law and the right to have your property confiscated. And so there was already quite a lot of that there. So it seems that actually, most of the law in our human rights system, all that really did was kind of just tidy up [00:42:00] and make all nice flash and polished more or less what our existing rights were. Um, the rights that did get sort of skipped over in that declaration of human rights are things like the right to employment, the right to Social Security and all those sorts of things. So you don't see that in the Bill of Rights Act, and you don't see that in the Human Rights Act. The Human Rights Act is really essentially an anti discrimination act, and not much more. So the first thing if we're going to go back and say, Well, there's something fundamentally wrong [00:42:30] with the human rights system. Maybe we also need to go back right back to the beginning and actually ask ourselves, Well, which rights should actually be you know actual rights that actually means something and not just sitting on a piece of paper that we've sort of symbolically signed up to. And and as we learn tonight, if you're going along going along to the other presentation tonight, basically every few years New Zealand has to stand up in front of the United Nations get criticised by half a dozen other countries for, you know, not doing enough on unemployment and [00:43:00] those sorts of things. But apart from that, there's no real enforcement of those rights. So So the first thing to consider is that maybe we need to start again and and actually look at all these rights and make sure there's some kind of system that addresses them. Um, even if it's a start off by making it very transparent, what our performance is on these rights, like having an independent body actually saying this is actually the true measure of unemployment and how well it's going well, this is the true measure of poverty, and how many people [00:43:30] are actually meeting the poverty line and and so on. Um, but when we do have these other rights to make sure that, like I said, There's an actual system of enforcement, um, that that is actually going to work. So, um, and in terms of taking action again, this isn't something that's really on the political agenda. It's kind of it's It's like we take for granted that, Oh, we've got a Human Rights Act and the Human Rights Commission. But [00:44:00] no one's people are talking about individual things. Individual problems like the transgender community is quite up in arms about. We've still got no access to real access to health care, but no one's actually looking about how this overall system is really broken. It's not on the political agenda yet, so I sort of feel like if we are going to make something, um, change, it's going to be a bit of a long term project, and what we really need to start off with is is to build up a network of people who are interested in this issue [00:44:30] who want to research it, Um, not for, you know, academic publication, but to actually present a robust critical case that that's a problem that needs to be addressed, that there are solutions and they'll find sky solutions like this Icelandic model for example that can actually address the problems. If we do want to, if we have that political will and to start to start maybe getting it on the agenda for maybe for the next election, which which comes around pretty quickly in New Zealand like it's only like we'd have to probably [00:45:00] work on this for no more than two years before they start knocking on people's doors in Parliament and saying, Hey, this is something that your party should really have in your policy proposals for the next election. So that's really where I'm coming from, um, in terms of this discussion, But, um, great to hear some of your feedback and ideas as well. So final thoughts and feedback from people. Well, I know that Jeff Palmer, who of course, is responsible for the [00:45:30] um, bill of New Zealand bill of drugs, said at the time. And he may have changed his mind since. Of course, um, that the economic and social rights weren't considered because of the resource implications and the worry. I suppose you could call it that the state would end up with, um, demands on it that couldn't be met, that I'm paraphrasing, but that that sounds. That sounds [00:46:00] like something that he would say, but that, And so the rights that are there are basically I suppose you could say they're about liberties in a way. And, of course, people like to say, Oh, it goes back to Magna Carta, which, of course, people forget was actually a an arrangement between the crown and the nobles who were often fighting each other and even trial by jury can't entirely [00:46:30] be based on that. But there is one good clause which says, and it still applies is that justice delayed? Is justice denied That is one of the that. And of course, what has happened is the the, um rights in the Bill of Rights. The New Zealand Bill of Rights are really, I think, articulations [00:47:00] of of the common law. In many ways and statute, law is now probably more important than common law because common law was judge made law and some of it was positively mediaeval. Um, but anyway, I better stop on. Can I ask you a question? I just wanted to ask you whether you thought the answer is to do an amendment to the Human Rights Act or whether um, you would feel that it's you want a new start with something different? [00:47:30] Well, I think we need to think in terms of a system. And the and the Human Rights Act is in fact, only one piece of law. So there's several pieces of law. And as we see, I mean, for example, if we just focus on anti discrimination, which is a big, important part of our human rights, particularly transgender or, um, a sexual minority or whatever, Um, and how that system isn't working, it's it's we don't need. We don't really need the law to say you've got more rights, you need [00:48:00] ground. Well, it's basically it's the enforcement and the compliance and the fact that state agencies can seem to just ignore the law, even though the law says it's, you know, it's binding on them. Sorry, Maggie's got a point, definitely something that I've been seeing pop up quite frequently. So, um, at the like, various different conferences they go to and the different communities that come along [00:48:30] to that, um, they'll be talking about like how they're fine with signing things and they want to be like world leaders with things but they're not good with enforcement. And that's what everyone has been saying is they want them to, like, walk the walk, not just talk the talk regarding employment. There's I OK, this might sound like science fiction, but it's actually damn, it's reality. The unemployment problem is only gonna get worse. [00:49:00] And so you get these people stuck in the past saying off the employment rate just gets better. Then people will employ people because of the free market and that the fact of the matter is is that the robots are taking over. I'm not joking. This is a very real thing. The government I was talking to and about this. The government is well aware of this self serve machines, um, automation, all that kind of stuff. So when we talk about economic rights, [00:49:30] it's pretty obvious I, in my opinion, that we need new laws because the world is changing and, um, well, I don't know, but that but that is that is seriously like People laugh at me, they say, Oh, you've been watching Too much Terminator. But no, no. Yeah, and you can laugh and I laugh, too. But no, no, no. It's a real thing. It's a real thing to be more work done on what the jobs of the future really are, assuming that there will still be some [00:50:00] sorts of jobs. And, um, because there's also suggestions that the Polytech are not resourced enough to help with retraining and things like that, that was the whole point of going to be a lot of relearning and retraining. The new campus is deliberately set up, and Jacinda Ardern opened it, and she said, This is This is the training of the future, as in what we train people in is going to change. But But my point is, it's easier to discriminate [00:50:30] people for jobs if there's less jobs to go around. And that's a very so if you want equal employment and jobs, you can't rely on the free market to do it because it ain't gonna do it. OK, um, I'm aware of the time anybody got any quick final make. One final point in relation to Here's a bit of legislation, but let's not give effect to it because it might create social and economic problems. We've got a lot of legislation there [00:51:00] that's not being put into effect and organisations are being prosecuted. For example, um, the Employment Relations Act is something I know about. So if an organisation doesn't, um you know, they they'll have all the policies under the ER A. But don't give effect to those policies and can't prove that they are doing that They can be and are prosecuted under the under the ER A and and that is happening fairly regularly. So [00:51:30] I'm kind of thinking Will organisations have to to prove that they can give effect to this legislation? Why aren't state agencies being challenged that they are not potentially giving effect to the legislation that we've been discussing here? And it just seems, you know, I mean, put it bluntly. It's a WTF moment for me. OK, well, that kind of that kind [00:52:00] of like where I got to as well on this issue. Yeah, so maybe we leave it on that eloquent note. Thank you all very much for coming out on this cold and wet and windy night and maybe I'll catch up with you later in the evening. Just up the road. Thank you. 1004.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089818
TITLE: Welby Ings on Sparrow
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VOICES: Welby Ings
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1940s; 2010s; ANZAC Day; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland Pride festival (2018); Australian and New Zealand Army Corps (ANZAC); Berlin; Boy (film, Welby Ings); Canada; Christchurch Pride festival (2018); Creative New Zealand; Egypt; Germany; God's Own Country (film); Interfilm Festival (Berlin); James Wallace; Kevin Todd; Moonlight (film); Nazi Germany; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand Film Commission; New Zealand International Film Festival; Ngā Taonga Sound and Vision; Out On Film (film festival); Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD); Pride parade; Punch (film); Robin Murphy; Rule Foundation; Sparrow (film); Welby Ings; Wellington; Wellington Pride Festival (2018); World War 2; audience; bird; boosted; boxing; coming out; crowd funding; crowd sourcing; desertion; diversity; emotional; family; fear; film; film festival; flying; gay; homophobia; homosexual; image+nation (film festival); invisibility; letter; mental breakdown; military; narrative; post gay; psychiatric hospital; shell shock; silence; stereotypes; suicide; takatāpui; uniform
DATE: 3 March 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast writer and director Welby Ings talks about his new short film Sparrow.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So we're standing on Wellington's waterfront. It's a beautiful, sunny summer's day and there are heaps of people around. Um, this was actually the place 100 years ago, or just over 100 years ago, where troops departed for World War One. it was also the place where troops departed for World War Two. And, um, I have with me will be who's just, uh, finished a movie. Uh, about, uh, a troop story in World War Two will be Can you tell me about it? So it's it's called Sparrow, and [00:00:30] it's a a short film, but it's based on a true story in New Zealand, but one that hasn't been documented. And it's about, uh, one of those those hidden areas, like desertion and suicide in war, but also about gay men in war. So those three areas are almost and visible in our story. So when you talk about people leaving here and coming back, even though those our people were there fighting in the war, they came back as heterosexual or nothing the way they're perceived. But similarly, if they [00:01:00] attempted to commit suicide or deserted, they were the The story was played right down, so it didn't interrupt the heroic narrative of the surviving, sacrificing soldier. So how did you come across the story? It's family. It's in the family. It's in the extended family. And, uh, I didn't realise I didn't actually realise that even existed. We used to. You know, my my great uncle used to march in the ANZAC parade with my my, uh, my cousin used to wear all these medals, and we always understood that this that the you know, that their [00:01:30] grandfather had, uh, had died in the war and he had died a hero saving soldiers. And he got all these medals and the family wore them in the parades. He didn't die in the war. He was brought back and put in a psychiatric institution because he attempted to desert. And so that's I mean, in the first World War, we were calling that shell shock today, we'd call it, um, post traumatic shock. But, uh, at that time in the first World War, we actually rendered that, so it was no longer a condition. So it became No, it was no longer a diagnosable [00:02:00] condition. So these men came back and they had there was nothing registered wrong with them. And so they either disappeared back into families. Uh, with chronic alcoholism unable to sleep, sometimes unable to walk properly, a lot of them committed suicide. Or they were put into psychiatric hospitals. But into the back wings, not in the front wings of hospital or so if they're in a public hospital, they the men with physical injuries were in the front wards, and the men with the psychological injuries were at the back where you didn't have to encounter them. [00:02:30] So what was it like? Uh, bringing a story to the screen, which was obviously so personal, so close to your own family. So I had to protect, uh, I had to protect the family for they they didn't want it as a documentary. And I can understand that a documentary is very invasive. Um, so II I decided to take a completely different approach. And I, I did it as the most beautiful poetic story I could tell about the most terrible, heartbreaking situation. So, you know, the core [00:03:00] of it was that he signed up with his mate and his, um they went when they were fighting in Egypt. There was a very poor commanding officer. These these men were lovers. It was understood and completely accepted by the other men who were fighting. Um, and when his mate was shot due to the bad um, um, commands of the officer that he he took off his uniform. So he stripped naked. So if you in in war, if you take off your uniform, you you technically desert. So he [00:03:30] stripped and then carried the body of his mate out into the gunfire. And he wasn't shot by the Germans in Egypt, but he came back with an injury in his back. So he was shot. He had to have been shot by the by the New Zealanders. And it's just showing at one little, tiny, tiny scene in the film. And you go, OK, so clearly it wasn't the Germans who shot him. So he was charged with desertion. But because he was they considered that he he was mentally unstable and that it had a kind of a meltdown. He was put in the psychiatric hospital, but [00:04:00] the the difficulty was that the family couldn't cope with the the shame of the story. So they invented another story around him and he died in the hospital. The family never came to see him. And all I had to go on was the letters that had written to his son asking him to come and see him. And in amongst those there were these pieces of story that I put together that I was able to piece together for for Sparrow. What was it like? The process of uncovering that story in relation to how your family dealt with this kind of, um, discovery. [00:04:30] Uncover. So it was just it. It's still silenced within the extended family. The story and I and I understand that. And that's why I I'm very careful about how much information I give away, because it's a kind of coming out. And if you know, if we're not ready to come out and people have got our story, then we have to treat that with respect. And I think that's one of the things I learned as a gay man is when you're approaching people's stories, they are the people who who should make the decision about how far out they come. So when they give you permission to do something, you have to work in parameters. [00:05:00] So, um, there's still much in the parades, and everything's still accepted. And the the film is done in such a way that it doesn't point the finger clearly at anybody. So, uh, so there's a passing parade of Wellington waterfront. So which a world away from war stories? Really? So, um, so you know, in as a filmmaker or any kind of storyteller when you have somebody else's story, you either can treat it very exploitive and and, uh, and create something of high impact [00:05:30] that's going to gather in audiences. And people are going to be able to play the voyeur on somebody's difficult story. Or conversely, you treat it, uh, with exquisite beauty and and delicacy. So it's the most light handed film I've ever made, and, um, and you watch it and it unfolds almost hypnotically. And then you understand, at the same time what a terrible, gut wrenching thing this is that's happening. And it doesn't have any spoken dialogue. It has only one tiny piece where the the so [00:06:00] it maps two stories together. It maps that story and a so this was part of the way. I kind of kind of hid the story. Um, it also takes the story of of my childhood where I I used to believe I could fly and I used to wear wings to school. And, uh, that's why that's a false tooth in the front that I got smacked out primary because of that. But but in the in his letters, he talks. So I used to feed the sparrows and think I was a sparrow. But in his letters he talked about the fact that the men found a sparrow and they kept it in the dugouts [00:06:30] and they fed it their rations. So I pushed those two stories together. That would it be if the boy discovered these letters and tried to make meaning of it, Tying his story of, um, thinking he's a sparrow and feeding sparrows and the the the the the his grandfather's story of, um, protecting a sparrow and the sparrow being the only way they could show love in this environment was the care of this bird and the bird bird. At the end of the film, we [00:07:00] see the bird back in the present and the I'm not gonna say how the film ends, but you'll see it's very delicately done. It's trying to weave those two things together in the publicity for the film. You're saying that you want to get this to the widest possible audience, and I'm wondering if you can talk about, um, making a rainbow themed film for a wider audience. Yes, So, I, I have this anxiety about feeding a ghetto that I because I don't think ghettos help us. Um, and while recently we've seen things like Moonlight [00:07:30] and God's Own Country, those films that we call them crossover. But I actually don't even think that I. I just think that, um, any film can explore the human condition, and it can choose to either treat it as light entertainment. Or it can ask profound questions and that people are interested in the human condition. The difficulty is with the film is that it doesn't do it in a very, um, it's not social realism. And so you've got a a subject that you expect to see handled like that handled very lyrically. [00:08:00] So it's done really well in festivals, not just the LGBT festivals. It's you know, it's been in Paris and Berlin had huge trouble getting an uptake. So it wasn't selected for the New Zealand Film Festival. And then when you see what's in there, it's a mile away, stylistically and I I mean, I understand all my work is kind of, um, a mile away. Stylistically, perhaps, But you know, and I don't begrudge that I just understand that you, when you're making stories that sit outside of the the expected frame, you're [00:08:30] going to have to work a little harder to get those stories taken up or you have to search to find those places. But once they get, once it starts rolling, then you're fine. But but I thought that's what film festivals were all about, presenting stuff that you wouldn't necessarily see in a normal week. So film festivals are interesting because they all have a kind of a personality. They have very diverse personalities, so but they also have to balance something that audiences that they have to predict an audience. So that and [00:09:00] I have I have nothing against the New Zealand film festival that brings in great films, but in the end you you have to make they have to make a call going. What is the ethos What is the spirit of our festival and what is the body of work that best exemplifies that and is going to get an audience so that, um so some LGBT festivals would would never pick Sparrow. But then lots of, um, uh, kind of films that are, uh, festivals that are interested in cinematic innovation. They pick it up. [00:09:30] So my my sense is just because something's new doesn't give it a ticket into a festival. You know, you've described your filmmaking process in the past as, um, kind of drawing out the stories. So not having a script and not necessarily having a storyboard. Can you tell me about that process? So this this film had hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of drawings in it because I was wrestling with I was wrestling with. How do you take the profound and make it beautiful? And, um, so it took me a long time [00:10:00] to get there, and especially because I had to try and understand the texture of the emotion in it. And and you can't do that with words. And, uh, so the stories went through a lot of transitions, So if you, uh, the the pictures went through a lot of transitions. So in the end, I ended up with about four seminal images that I I recognised, as in the film. And they are actually created in the film. They those images actually appear there. So when he is shot, that is, there's actually a drawing of that which I don't normally use. Uh, images didactically. [00:10:30] I don't use them to kind of go. This is specifically what it was. The rest of them are finding the tone of the work, but they are around. Um, you know, they are around. I mean, we were shooting Egypt in a in a quarry in in the pouring rain. And although it doesn't look like that in the film, we were cutting channels in the mud to get rid of the rid of the water. But because you understand, you know, really understood what? This Hm. Uh, it's gonna sound strange what this mell and tasted like it was [00:11:00] quite easy to go. OK, so here we've got pouring rain in the quarry. This is the way we're gonna have to shoot it to get the taste that taste in the film. And I. I think it worked, and so quite a large cast. 70. So for a short film like this is like not a new normal New Zealand short film. So traditionally, I, I sometimes think New Zealand is a little conservative with the way it perceives short film it they normally go single narrative straight Arc one protagonist, 15 minutes, um, limited cast [00:11:30] limited budget and you create something like this and you go, Well, let's just forget all of that and go, How do we tell a profound story? So in this case, yep, 70 70. But I had AAA wonderful Robin Murphy who produced it. She was really good and we had amazing good will. So one of the lovely things is when you build a reputation in the country, even if you sit outside the mainstream the goodwill we had coming into it. So we had, you know, some of the country's best people just going look, we'll work for next to nothing, because we think [00:12:00] this is a story that should happen, so they're very humbling. But you you as a as it puts a burden on you because you you have to make it really good because it's the only way you can give back to these people for the generosity they've poured into the work. So it's not as if it's it's not an experiment. It's It's a a fulfilling of a dream, such that it lives up to what it says it could be. What about financing? Was it hard to get funding for this project? Oh, fuck, yes. So So we we took it twice to the film commission, [00:12:30] and both times they said no. Um, and that's fine. They've got a limited amount of stuff that they can fund. And, um, you know, I've never been funded by them. We've always had it either through Creative New Zealand or other areas in this one. we knew it was going to be quite hard film to get the subject sounded enticing. But when you saw the way it was going to be treated, it kind of put people off because they went well, it would be great if it was a do. And, um, so we we I I got some money for an award [00:13:00] academic award, and and so that gave me 20 grand. And then, uh, university gave me 10, and then we crowd funded And, uh, you know, I'm I was very new to crowd funding, and I actually I find it very exposing it. It's not a thing that I I like, but But I have to say that, uh, I understand now why it's so important because a lot of the art that gets made in New Zealand actually happens because of that and the generosity of people with that and the the phenomenal power of social [00:13:30] media, which was, you know, I don't even have a I don't have any social media presence such a private guy. But the film does And, um, yeah, so, so I, I realise. And now I I you know, I donate to things like boost it because I actually see that it's part of us, uh, feeding the lifeblood of the country because our funding agencies won't always move towards the more risky edge stuff. But it's that stuff that moves us culturally forward gets us telling stories that might that might add to the way we tell stories, rather [00:14:00] than play into the safe zone of another safe story that will get its audience that will get its money back. Or that approach. Do you think there is an element of homophobia? It's a Well, that's a really interesting question. So we're all supposed to say now that we're all post gay and everything's cool? Well, I think that's bollocks. I think it's far more difficult to discern it now. But I, I I'll give you an example that ran up to against recently when someone went, Oh, [00:14:30] well, we don't you know, we've already got a gay movie that's just come out and you go, Oh, so is there a head count for this? You know, no one goes. There's already a heterosexual movie out, but so So women. Um uh, ethnic minorities. Minorities face this a lot, but it's one of those. It's those kind of like New Century stuff that where something where where Rainbow pride and and the all the banks in New Zealand march in the pride parades and wave their flags and the gay men stand on the on the side and wave [00:15:00] and look at it. And but in fact, underneath that, on a deeper level, we've run the risk of becoming a tokenized tick to get a rainbow tick. We've become a thing to get on side to show how tolerant something is. So when we throw the word diversity around, I'm very suspicious of it because I think we've become a commode. Um, social. Uh um object. Almost. So I know this sounds a little uncharitable, so [00:15:30] it's a lot better than being, You know, I remember the early days of marching down Queen Street in parades of eight people and being spat at. It's a long way from there, but it hasn't gone. Fear is still fear and fear of difference is still fear of difference and a being accommodated because you are fashionable to be accommodated. I mean, I sometimes wonder if we didn't have the pink dollar. Whether we be where we are in reality, I mean, why are banks turning some assaults To be, um, to show how loyal they are? That doesn't actually happen because of a social conscience [00:16:00] and then moving on from the the the funding issues. What about getting people to actually act in a gay themed, uh, film or actually being part of it? What did did you have any challenges there? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. No, no, no, no, no. There's no problem although interesting, because we've just finished casting for the the the new feature and, um, one of the guys. There's a young guy in it and he is, He is. He's vicious, [00:16:30] but he's also he's the most. He's the guy with the biggest balls in the film. He's the most. He's the truest man in the film, but it's a very he's a He starts off as a very unlikable character, so I didn't want to create one of those. Oh, he's the gay guy that we're all going to love and feel sorry for. Like he's got a mouth like a septic tank. And he's he's very, very tough. And, um and we had It was interesting because he's about 18 years old, and so we had. Well, kids were interested. Someone's parents weren't that keen that their kid [00:17:00] auditioned, although we had. I mean, let's say we had lots of people auditioned for it, and we found somebody really good. I just can't talk about that until it's in production. So Sparrow has been seen internationally. Um, can you run through some of the festivals that it's been to? She also, uh, it was in Interfilm Berlin which is what? That's the big, uh um, German International Short Film Festival. And that's the film. That's the festival that boy won back in 2004. So, um, and it's been in our, um [00:17:30] so some of the LGBT festivals there's, uh, Montreal. There's, um, Philadelphia. There's Atlanta. There's Paris. There's I can't remember them all. It's terrible Robin to keep going. Oh, it's in this one. It's in this one. You go, Oh, good and all. All you do is a filmmaker going. Shit. I hope they got really good projection and really good sound, you know, because that's it. That's the true reason that you and as a director you want it there because all the work you put into the fine tuning of it is lost [00:18:00] if they if it's played on a bad system. And, uh, whereas generally in festivals, the stuff's on really great screens, so you know you'll see it for its richness. And what about screenings in New Zealand? So, uh, Robin said it. It's available just for this little gap before it goes into it into the other festivals. And she said, Well, why don't we bring it home and do something for New Zealand. And we had the first people who were in to support this was actually the Rule Foundation, and it was so touching [00:18:30] because, I mean, we're sure our people are short of money. I mean, you might call about the pink dollar, but we're trying to run so many things to try and lift our community and support it that they would support something like this. But they gave us two grants and then, uh, James Wallace came in, but and I kept thinking, Well, in truth, I'm a gay man, and I'm standing on my feet when mates of mine top themselves during AIDS or went into the closet and stayed there. So how can I give back? So we've done things [00:19:00] like, uh, we we screened it in Auckland and in Christchurch and Dunedin as part of the pride thing. Um, so in Auckland, it was for to earn money for the AIDS Foundation. Um, Wellington. It's for the archives, but that's because we actually used a lot of archive material. When I was, they were they were pretty. They were very good. So, um, it was just a way we just go. I think this thing I was talking about before that often these films you because they're fed on such generosity, you have to turn around at the end and go, Well, what can we do in return to, um, [00:19:30] to to feed back? Because this these stories, if they're important, they only exist because of that support. But if you don't feed support, if you don't give back, you just become another draw on limited resources. And so, you know, like the Auckland one. The theatre was packed, and and, uh, it was great to be able to go. Well, there's something, you know, something that we can give back to. That's a really good cause and and, um, yeah, so that's kind of the approach that we've taken. And did your family see it? Yeah, Yeah, Oh, yeah. They [00:20:00] were all cast and crew screening, so they're very they're very well. Their nuclear family did, um, the wider part of the extended family, uh, they I showed the people that it was directly related to, and I showed them the an uncut version of it to check that everything was fine. But I also showed them because you do have to take it to a screen play at some point because you got to give directions for your your actors and your your your crew. So I showed them that they wanted two things changed, which was absolutely fair. And, uh, so I kind of, you know, because you're treating with [00:20:30] some reverence. So that was all that was all fine. But But the understanding is, and you know, that's why I'm careful in the interview. Uh, I can't expose them because they're not ready to come out with that yet. And, um, you know, and that's perfectly understandable. There's lots and lots of those stories in this country that still I just said that people's over the tea cups and people's houses and they don't get out there. They're not. They're not going into the oral histories yet. What's the reaction been from the audiences that have seen him crying? Yeah, yeah, because [00:21:00] it's It's very It's fucking sad at the end, uh, sad in a kind of beautiful way, but it actually ends with a actually euphorically in a in a very delicate way. But it's not a redemption story, you know, Um, so and and I think it's also it's it's tuned so so emotionally, delicately that it's quite it's not hard to push people's hearts just over the edge with it and a director as a manipulative shit. [00:21:30] And that's what I set out to do. So it's had a It had an amazing, uh, I couldn't get to Berlin when it was an inter film, but, um, one of our one of our crew was over there, so she introduced it and she said it had just astounding reaction. So and that's and that's interesting because it was a film that actually showed the Germans as compassionate, you know? So it was an interesting thing to take a story in there that was around a difficult part of their history, too. And, um, and for it to be reacted to in the way it was, so it was great. [00:22:00] And this story springboards into your new feature. Yeah. So this is, uh, one of the reasons I wanted to make it was that, um, the feature, actually, the the boy who's the who believes he can fly is actually the feature picks him up about, uh, 11 years later and everything that he had become in The film has fallen apart and he's become a boxer and he's living his dad's dream. And and that's actually what he's wrestling against in the short film. And so, and and [00:22:30] he doesn't realise that that's at the beginning of the film, that he's gay. But by the end of the film, he's kind of. But he's a heroic boxer in a small town. So it kind of looks at the hyper masculinity of small towns and where, where our sports people sit in that in that world And, you know, my it was based loosely. No, I guess I could say it was inspired by my partner, who was, um, the Kevin Todd who, um died of AIDS in the 19 nineties. And he came from a boxing family. But he became a, uh he [00:23:00] represented New Zealand in the Commonwealth Games as a as a triple jumper, and he trained a lot of a lot of G BT athletes, a lot of our sprint champs, and, um and so I kind of wanted to. I drew a lot on the difficult relationship that he had with family and with the wider world in in in punch. And when is that due for production? Well, we're just trying to argue it across the line with the film commission at the moment, So we've got international distributors for it. So it's got It's got, we've, [00:23:30] we've We've always had really good international reaction to the stuff. It's just getting it, uh, just getting it across the line here. That's that's always the the slightly bigger, um, difficulty. But, you know, I'm an optimistic man and and stubborn as hell. And somewhere between those, we'll get the film. We'll get the film across the board, but we're not going to get. We're not gonna have, like, a 5 million budget for it at all. But because I'm so fussy about production values, we've got to have enough to make sure that it's a really [00:24:00] a magnificent film, you know, And just finally just heading back to Sparrow. What WW What do you come away from seeing Sparrow When When it's on the screen? What do what do you feel? Um, that's a really hard question. So on one level, uh, I moved into film from Theatre for a reason is that film is a durable, is something durable remains at the end of it. So you know, I'm not leaving kids behind on the earth, So I want [00:24:30] to make sure that when I go, what I do leave here is of quality and is worth something worth something both artistically and socially. So, uh, I come away proud, but always riddled with a little bit of doubt, because I'm such a perfectionist that I'll see anything that's wrong, even if maybe other people don't. So and that's the same with everything I do. But, uh, but I, I now know that I treated that story with absolute dignity and reverence, and it took something where there's a statistic saying, You know, five [00:25:00] men attempted, uh, committed suicide. I know that's not true, and that's all there is in New Zealand for those stories. Well, here's one that now sits in the cinema and goes, you know, there's another. There's another version of this, and also it's given. I mean, as gay men growing up, trying to find where you were in wars in times of war, we were rendered invisible. So you go well. Here's at least one where we it's absolutely upfront about it. It goes. These men were not judged by their colleagues in the [00:25:30] in the in the trenches or the or the dugouts. They they weren't all all pariah. These are men thrown into difficult conditions, and there was actually a very high level of wasn't even tolerance. It was just like accommodation. And so that's kind of not in the history books, because there's a lot of homophobia exists in the meta narrative of war around masculinity because it's seen as some kind of threat to masculinity, which causes bollocks. And I guess you know, we can often presume that historians, [00:26:00] when they're looking back at war stories, are kind of acting in a kind of a neutral space. But actually, if they are homophobic themselves, they they would never have those stories. There's no neutral space in the telling of stories of war. Even the the stories that get nominated are nominated unevenly So and so I understand myself as subjective, too. Uh, the difficulty is, I don't believe that war is a when people talk about the theatre of war, I don't think it's a theatre. I think it's the failure of civilization and to, and so I'm really [00:26:30] interested in making sure those difficult, difficult human things that are involved in in something like, well, I. I mean, I did film title sequence for, um TV and when we go to war, which is World War One, you know, and and I make that stuff commercially, but it it actually truly just reinforces the known stories. And so, you know, if you if you try to expand this, you know, look at our own stories when when we were trying to get something more authentic than gay. Guy likes to shop with his best [00:27:00] friends, who's a woman and wears designer labels. Or, um, gay guy is an unremorseful slut who has. He hangs out in bars and backrooms, whatever. So we have those awful cliches that sit there and still pro still propagated today. We think it's acceptance it's not. It's narrowing down who we are. So when our wider stories of gay guy who's a boxer in a small town, they don't get it, they don't get out there. We we've got this. Let's get the gay character so we often become the character in somebody else's story, and as a character, we're supposed to be lovable. [00:27:30] Well, we're prickly, and we're as prickly as anybody else. And so getting those prickly, um, personalities but also prickly, uh, ethical stories out, I think is, is part of contributing to a better fabric in your country.

IRN: 1179
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/pardon_me_alan_turing.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004523
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089817
TITLE: Pardon Me Alan Turing
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Stephen Lunt
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1940s; 2010s; Alan Turing; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland Pride Festival; Bats Theatre; Benedict Cumberbatch; Criminal Records (Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences) Act 2018; Enigma machine; Historic Convictions; Nazi Germany; Oscar Wilde; Pardon Me Alan Turing (play); Rainbow Wellington; Rule Foundation; Stephen Fry; Stephen Lunt; The Imitation Game (film); United Kingdom; Wellington; Wellington Pride Festival (2018); World War 2; chemical castration; computer science; computers; convictions; courts; entrapment; family; forgiveness; history; homosexual; humour; law; marriage; maths; pardon; patriotism; poisoning; politics; prison; relationships; research; social media; suicide; theatre; visa; writing
DATE: 1 March 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Bats Theatre, 1 Kent Terrace, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast writer Stephen Lunt talks about the play Pardon Me Alan Turing. The play runs at Bats Theatre in Wellington from 1 March - 4 March 2018.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: We're in the heyday. Dome of Bats Theatre. Um, so it's one of the three spaces that Bats has, and it has an amazing dome right above us, that which has independent lighting. So it can be a list of any colour, which is amazing for the show, um, and has pillars. And it's actually perfect for the show, really, And this is the first time the show has been in Wellington. It is actually. Yeah, it's It's the first time it's been out of Auckland. So even [00:00:30] though it's set in the UK um, Auckland's, it's had two season and development season and, um, the, uh, the Auckland Pride uh, season of it. So how did the play come about? I've been writing it for a number of years. I saw the imitation game, um, which was about Alan Turing and his life and sort of an area which wasn't really covered, which was about his conviction, [00:01:00] um, or potential conviction, Which was he received, Um, an alternative to a conviction. And I thought it was an area that hadn't been covered I didn't really know about, so I started researching that and thought it's there was there wasn't even talk then, about, um, the pardons, um, being extended or to anyone else. It just It had just been given to Alan Turing at the time, so [00:01:30] I thought it needs more, um it needs to be brought to the public more, more. So before we go any further, can you just elaborate on who Alan Turing was? And and and what was his convictions? So, Alan Turing, um, he was a genius mathematician and computer scientist. And he well, basically he They say that he broke the enigma codes during World War Two. So he, um [00:02:00] they say he shortened the war by two years because of his abilities. He he he designed a machine and built a machine that broke the code. And then Nazis were so confident that it couldn't be broken, that they didn't believe that it had. And so, yeah, the British government kept a secret for so long that they managed to win the war by strategy, basically, but he Yeah, his advances in computer science are are basically why [00:02:30] we have why computers are where they are today. He had the idea of actually what a computer could be. Artificial intelligence and was fascinated by that. So, yeah, uh, British, Um, during the, um, was working for the British government during the the war of the thirties and forties. Then, um, he was involved in, um he basically had a relationship with someone who, um, [00:03:00] who stole some stuff from him. So he reported it, um, but didn't report that he was having a relationship with them. And it came out that he was having a relationship, and then he had to go to court. And, um, the alternative to the conviction for being homosexual, which was legal at the time homosexual activities, um, was that he was a chemical castration, which is, um, artificial oestrogen. So he Yeah, he [00:03:30] underwent that afterwards. Um, so to avoid prison. Yeah. So that's how Yeah, That's how it came about that, uh, the the pardon was given to him well, after he was dead. And, um, a long time after, um, he he died. Um, So they say that he committed suicide, but, um, it could have also been just, um, vapour that it could have been because he [00:04:00] did experiments in his back room, but yeah, So it could have been that as well, but it was a long time after he died that the pardons came out, Um, the pardon for him, and then it wasn't extended to anybody else except him, which is bizarre for the fact that, um, they were pardoning him for him, his homosexuality, but not actually acknowledging all of the amazing stuff that he did. And it was seen to be only his patriotism is was the reason why they gave him a pardon in the first place. So yeah, and so you were saying you you saw a movie about his life. And then what [00:04:30] were the things in that movie that weren't covered? That kind of inspired you to write? The The play was it was more about his life and obviously, the amazing things he did in computer science. Um, and then they kind of skipped over the relationship quite broadly. Um, and his conviction. So I just think it thought it needed to be, um, needed more detail about that and actually need more work needed to be done towards, um, the pardons being extended [00:05:00] to the the other men. The thousands of other men who were who had been convicted under the same the same law for hundreds of years. Um and just because they weren't famous, they weren't considered important enough to to be pardoned as well. So it was. It's just to the fight that actually be Cumberbatch and Stephen Fry were campaigning for. Um, obviously they come back to playing and Turing in the film, and [00:05:30] and then the the campaign started for trying to extend these pardons in the UK. And then they see here as well in New Zealand. So, yeah, tell me about some of the other characters in the play. So it also features Oscar Wilde. Um, so there's there's four storylines. Um, one is of Alan Turing and his life, Um, especially, um, how His family, um, treated him during [00:06:00] the period where he, um, was was in court and being convicted, Um, and his childhood as well. And how they treated him through that, um, O, Oscar Wilde and, um, him his his life, uh, is is being married, but also being distanced in that marriage. And, uh, before he was, um, convicted and sent to prison for 22 years [00:06:30] for hard labour. Also, there's a modern story line which is the um, the the fight towards the pardons being being extended. Um, so it's that mainly focused on, uh, just before the pardons were, um were extended in the UK. And then the first reading being passed here. And there is a a purgatory, um, storyline, which is if Oscar Wilde and Alan Turing knew each other and what their relationship would be, [00:07:00] Um, So they're having a Alan Turing is direct directness and intelligence against, uh, wild wit and humour and how that and that's just seems to work really well, as soon as I started writing it, knowing the two characters, um how well, they kind of played off each other. I I read a review recently, Um, that that that says about, um, the play the humour seduces you. Then the themes confront you. Yeah. I mean, [00:07:30] I don't I don't think if you if you there is a play that, um, keeps punching. Um, tragedy, tragedy, tragedy all the way through. It numbs an audience. I feel like humour lifts the audience out and makes them think about the issues more because they're laughing at it. But sometimes they think they shouldn't be laughing at it because it's a serious matter. And then sometimes they're laughing at it and going, Oh, yeah, that's true. And they relate to it. Um, I think humour is a good way of of bringing issues to the fore and making the audience think about [00:08:00] it. Um, if you keep, um, trudging through and hitting the audience with stuff is it's it's it's gonna, um, head against a blank wall after a while because the audience will just put up a wall of numb to it after a while. Yeah, I think humour is a really good tool. So on the face of it, um, giving a pardon for an historic offence is kind of pretty sounds kind of cut and dry, but you're saying there are there are [00:08:30] multiple issues within that. Yeah. Yeah, Well, there are There are the issues of what is a pardon. Um, the word pardon invokes ideas of, of being forgiven for something that you've done wrong, which even which the law is trying to to quash sentences. So it's not that the government is forgiving, uh, for something that they should be. It it it shouldn't be a pardon. It should [00:09:00] be, Uh um, Just a quashing of sentences because it's there was nothing wrong. Um, with what people were doing at the time. Um, it was just an offence that the government has had in vote. So, um yeah, and so it's the issues of what is a pardon. Why? Why? We're using the word pardon. And, um, what damage has been done by the government and therefore society for that length of time. And [00:09:30] can we actually ever wipe Wipe the slate clean is it's people have been seen as guilty for so long that are, they are always going to be seen as guilty no matter what. Um, the government says now or some people say now within society. Um, it's, um the rainbow community is seen in a in A in a shadow. Still, even now, [00:10:00] and times have moved on, but and laws are changing, but it's gonna take a long time for for society to change their opinions and views on the community. Am I right in thinking that this had its premier performances prior to the historic conviction legislation being introduced in New Zealand? Um, actually, just after so I was I've been writing it for a few years [00:10:30] before, Um, the convictions, uh, before the law change came into place. Um And then two weeks before the development season opened, the first reading was passed, so I then had to slightly rewrite the end. It didn't change the theme to it because it was always about the fight towards the change in the law. But the end of the play had was up to present day [00:11:00] and present moments. So I had to change that to to be that that the laws had had changed in the UK. And then, actually, it was pretty quickly that the reading had been passed here, so and that came into place so quickly it we talk about it. And it was It was a year that people have been talking and saying, Oh, yeah, yeah, we we are putting a a reading through, and you know it's being processed. And it's like, Well, how many years is this gonna take? And then, you know, with [00:11:30] within a few days, it had passed. And, um then, yeah, it was an exciting time because, you know, it was it was in current news. And it's so rare that you're writing a play where it changes so quickly, even just before and during the the run of the play. Um, yeah, because it takes so long for for the players to get onto the stage. It kind of highlighted that. Perhaps there needs to be more ways [00:12:00] for players to get on quickly if they're dealing with current events because they change so quickly. But it was exciting at the time because we could use all of that publicity and go look at this isn't the news. This is happening right now. This is what it's about. And so what was the audience reaction to that to that first production? Uh, we got we got really good feedback. Um, I invited a lot of friends along, obviously, because it was my my first full length show, which, um, was really exciting. And a lot of the audience members were completely unaware [00:12:30] of the history behind it. The history behind these famous characters, what they went through and the fact that the law change had only just come into place after 100/100 years. Um, and actually a lot of them were shocked and really touched by and upset as well as a lot of people who were emotionally upset yeah, were crying during the performance because they just didn't realise that this had happened and and actually were [00:13:00] upset that they didn't know about it. So I think it's really important in the fact that it's letting people it's letting people into this important piece of history and and the background behind it. Um, also, um, I've got an amazing cast, which I've still still got. Now it's the third season of the shows. Same casts, same director. So it's it's really it's developed over time, and the [00:13:30] cast have really embedded their characters and know them inside out. And the relationships are are are amazing. So and I've got an amazing technical person who's because there's so there's four different storylines. Actually, making those it clear that we're in different places is a is a challenge in itself. So, using lighting and background sound, we've managed to do that and it's and it's pretty clear now, So it has developed and changed. But since the first development season and [00:14:00] also using people's feedback and using critical feedback, we've managed to clarify what we had first and then Now I think we're in a really good place for the show in terms of audience feedback. Have you had, um, either men that were directly affected by these convictions or the families or friends of these men contact you? I have had a few messages through social media, um, which don't directly say I have a conviction, [00:14:30] but also but more so say that this has touched me and it and this has, um, affected me and and and, um, they connect with the themes. And they said that within within messages and which makes me think that there might be something else that, um which is, which is the thing at the time. At the moment, it's we might be able to change the laws, but if people have to apply [00:15:00] for them to be changed, they don't want to go back. They've been hiding it for so long. They don't want to think about that. They don't want to apply to a government and to through the police who convicted them in the first place. Um, especially if they were entrapped by some of the methods that were used back then to, um to entrap men. Um and then to convict them and under under that entrapment. Um, so yet the messages are more cryptic [00:15:30] and and you have to read a little bit more into them because people don't want to admit that they have convictions and that this has happened to them, even though we now well, society now should think that it's there was nothing wrong with what happened back then. But still, they've been hiding with someone, and they didn't want to talk about it or admit it or even relive it. And those convictions still, uh, can affect people on their daily lives. I, I imagine, like travel and and things like that, [00:16:00] Yeah. I mean, applying for visas for different countries applying for work. Um, if they do a criminal records check, the those convictions are the on the, um, the offenders list. So they're on the list with, um, paedophiles, um, and rapists. And that's lifelong, though it it doesn't end after a certain period. That's for the rest of their lives. So there are men that have passed away with [00:16:30] with those convictions, and and some are still alive with those convictions. So think the men that are still alive thinking back then when they were convicted, it was a very different world. So I think things haven't changed enough for them to to be able to face up to that. Do you know the extent of the number of convictions in New Zealand? Um, that that were brought about because of this? The there wasn't. [00:17:00] I think I think the government have actually explicitly said how many? Because they kept They've released records for the eighties and nineties, I think. And there was a lot I think I've I've written down somewhere that there were thousands of convictions during that period. So if we extend it to, you know, over 100 years, then we're we're talking of tens of thousands of men here, Um, in [00:17:30] the UK. It's, uh, around 50,000 men that were convicted under that under their law, Um, during the period that we we deal with in the play. So is a lot of men affected? Um, that's you know that that I've lived with this for so long that and it's taken so long for it to change. Um, and a lot of families that, um [00:18:00] of these men probably don't know about it. So even if they have passed away, if they don't know about it, then they're not going to apply for for a pardon. Or some of the families don't want to face face that either. So, yeah, it's it's affected a lot of people. And for it to have taken as long as is it's quite horrific, really. So what hooked you into this particular topic to for your first full length play? What? What was it that drew you in? [00:18:30] Well, I, I I've written full place before. It's just the first one that that has gone on. I thought it was so current that it needed to. I've developed and and developed it to try and get it on stage. Um, as soon as soon as I as I could I was As soon as I was happy with it. Um, I just I. I don't consider myself a political person, really in, like, everyday life. But my writing seems to always have political themes. I always seem to need [00:19:00] a, uh uh a purpose for a play. And for this the purpose was so strong and so current that I I felt like it. It needed to be written, and I don't I didn't feel like it had been publicised or had been touched by anyone else, um, on in theatre or on screen. So I thought it was a Yeah. I thought it was important. Important enough to to write a full length play and had enough [00:19:30] in it for a full length play. It probably has enough in it for several plays. Um, yeah, but this is this is the culmination of years of work. And yeah, I'm I'm pretty pleased with with how it's been, um, received and and and how it and the messages that it's, um, that it puts across. Now, can you talk to me about the differences between writing, say, for, um, a rainbow [00:20:00] queer audience and writing for a mainstream audience? And you know what those differences are? Well, I think an audience has to connect with themes and has and they have to connect with the characters. So if I was to write, uh, I play with the same themes, but featuring characters that were not from the rainbow community. I don't I don't feel like, um, people would connect as much. And [00:20:30] to the to the characters or the things because they wouldn't believe that the characters would connect to those themes either. So I feel like, um, to relate to a, um to a Romeo community that has to feature characters that they recognise and and believe that those characters have a passion for those themes and, um, have been affected by those themes. So I think you [00:21:00] you have to you have to know what who your audience is and whether they will be interested in in the characters and the and the the play that's being put together. So you were writing specifically for a rainbow audience? Yes, yes. But also, I feel it's important for for everyone to to to know about these themes. I. I do feel like, um, a lot of people within the rainbow [00:21:30] community don't know the extent to, um, to how these laws have affected people, especially younger people who've who've grown up in a in a, um, community that that hasn't had these laws. Um, and I feel like our our audience has has been an older, um, audience who still remember, uh, people. And and there's laws that that that affected [00:22:00] those people. Um, it would be great to get a younger audience. So I think get them interested in in how history has affected where they are now because it definitely has affected the world that we live in today. So yeah, II. I think everyone needs to know about these things, especially if we want to continue changing the law. Um, it's only had its, um, first read through passed, so it isn't actually in [00:22:30] law yet in New Zealand, even though it is in the UK. So it still needs work and and even the fact that we have to you have to apply for, um for it's, you know, for you to have your record expunged raises issues as well, especially for people who are still embarrassed about it. What about the marketing of the play and also getting sponsorship for the play? Is it harder if it's a rainbow play? [00:23:00] I feel like you. There are specific organisations that, um, are are able to help the rainbow community, which is great. We we got funding from a royal foundation and um Rainbow New Zealand, which, um which has really helped, especially with the the transfer for is really it has been quite expensive taking bringing actors down from Auckland, putting them up here per D MS, um so that they can, you know, stay here, especially if they're not working at the time. [00:23:30] Um, whilst they're here. So it's been essential that we got funding, but the play is specific enough and has political issues that still need to be addressed. And I feel like those organisations really saw what the saw the importance in those issues. And that's why we we got the funding from them and thought that the the patrons and, um, their their networks would support it as well. So will this play, um, be seen [00:24:00] in other centres around New Zealand? Um, there's no plans as of yet, so we're hoping that we can get it on in the UK at some point. Um, um, I'm approaching theatres and producers over there to see if we can get it on it. It's It would be, uh, a big job producing wise to try and, um get a A company to to go over to, um to the UK. But I mean, there are funding bodies that, um would [00:24:30] help with that, but it's so hard to to take things abroad. It was hard enough getting funding to bring it down here. Um, I think, uh, it it does, It's It's the things are worth publicising all over New Zealand. And, uh, some of the reviews that we got also said that it deserves to be on in every major centre in the world. Um, so that wasn't that was actually a review. And an audience member said that it [00:25:00] should It should be in every major city, which, um, I would agree with it because there are still places where these laws are still in place. Never mind, um, men with with with convictions. Um, there are still men being convicted in some countries even now, So it's it's really important. What have you taken from the play? You know, you've obviously written it. Researched it, um, when you see it being performed on stage, when you see the audience [00:25:30] reactions. Uh, what what do you take away from it? I've learned a lot about especially. I mean, I researching the play has been so fun and and learning about the world of Alan Turing and Oscar Wilde, um, completely different worlds and some of the um, some of their history, the things that they actually quotes, that they've said and, um, places that they've been the stories [00:26:00] of of those places has been really interesting and and try and really trying to recreate that those places and those situations on stage has been really fun. Audience reaction. Um, I think it has been what What I hoped for was that people laugh at in at the comedy in it and don't hold themselves back. [00:26:30] Um, and you speaking to people afterwards and and and reading reviews they, they get what the messages are, they get the characters and they are touched by the the themes. So I feel like I've succeeded in what I wanted in order to get from it, but also succeeded in creating authentic characters that people relate to and know from their own [00:27:00] knowledge of of those characters and and connect to them and and feel for what they've gone through.

IRN: 1178
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/lbgti_plus_education_forum.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004522
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089816
TITLE: LBGTI+ education forum
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: David Pegram; Grant Jones; Josh Espino; Katy Hodgson; Kirsty Farrant; Neo Kenny; Ri Comer; Richard Arnold; Tabby Besley
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; Ami Polonsky; Aotearoa New Zealand; Burnside High School (Christchurch); Christchurch; Community Law (Wellington); Day of Silence; Diversity Group (Newlands College); Dominion Post (newspaper); Gays and Lesbians in Education (GLE); Gracefully Grayson (book); Grant Jones; Human Rights Commission; InsideOUT Kōaro; Jem Traylen; Josh Espino; Katy Hodgson; Kirsty Farrant; Ministry of Education; NZEI Te Riu Roa; Nayland Alliance of Gays and Straights (NAGS); Nayland College; Nelson; Neo Kenny; Newlands; Newlands College; Onslow College; Orlando Bloom; Otago; Out Loud; Post Primary Teachers Association (PPTA); Queen Margaret College; Rainbow Taskforce for Safe Schools (PPTA); Rainbow Wellington; Ri Comer; Richard Arnold; Robin Duff; St Andrew's on the Terrace; Super Ultra Rainbow Alliance (Wellington); Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington; UltraViolet club (Wellington High School); United Kingdom; Wellington; Wellington College; Wellington East Girls' College; Wellington High School; Wellington Pride Festival (2018); Youth; athletics; biphobia; bisexual; bullying; coming out; diversity education; diversity training; dykeosaurus; education; family; gender education; gender identity; gender neutral bathrooms; gender neutral uniform; gender-neutral toilets; headmaster; health curriculum; health education; homophobia; homophobic bullying; homosexual; human rights; intermediate school; lesbian; library; media; parenting; parents; peer support; preferred name; primary school; pronouns; queer straight alliance (QSA); religion; restorative practice; rugby; safe space; safety; school counselor; school uniform; single sex schools; sport; teacher; teachers college; teaching; trans; transgender; transphobia; university; visibility; youth; youth group
DATE: 27 February 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: St Andrew's on the Terrace, 30 The Terrace, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the LBGTI+ education forum, held during Wellington's Pride festival at St Andrews on the Terrace on 27 February 2018. The event was organised by Rainbow Wellington. A special thank you to Rainbow Wellington, St Andrew's and all of the participants for allowing us to record and share this forum.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um, this is the Pride Festival Education forum. We've been organised, organised by, uh, Rainbow Wellington. But with the great participation of all of these wonderful people who I'm going to introduce you to in a moment. The idea behind this is to air some issues from personal perspectives from organisational perspectives from your perspectives, um, about education and, uh, young people [00:00:30] and LGBT QI a plus. Um, So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna introduce the speakers that we have. Um and then after that, they're gonna hand the microphone alone along and address you each for a few minutes. After that, we're gonna have a big talk together about the issues that have come up. We'll hand a microphone around, um, so that you can ask questions and be heard. OK, so I'm Richard Arnold. I'm the chair of Rainbow Wellington, [00:01:00] chair of the board. We're at, uh, Wellington's falling over lobbying and network and socialising, um, network and all, uh, events like this are very much part of what we like to do to to bring issues for discussion. Um, we have David Pegram here, who was born in London and has taught for three years in the West Indies 10 years in London and for the past 30 years, has been at Newlands College and deputy principal since 2000. Next to him is Kirsty Farran, the rainbow coordinator at [00:01:30] the PPTPPT, a union head office. Um next to her is Tabby Beazley, who is the national coordinator and founder of Inside Out, which is a national charity that works to give young people of minority sexualities, genders and sex characteristics across a a sense of safety and belonging in their schools and communities. Next to Kirsty, we have Josh. Uh, Josh founded a private QS a group a super Ultra Rainbow [00:02:00] alliance, six years ago. While they were in Year 10. They have now graduated but still support the group for Rainbow Youth. Um, that attend their old high school next to Josh. We have re She is currently ultraviolet at Wellington High School and is in year 12, and this will be her second year running the club as well as running debating at Wellington High. Then we have the, uh uh they're currently a leader of the ultraviolet group at Wellington High, and they previously started, uh, a QS a straight alliance [00:02:30] at Queen Margaret College. OK, so now it's gonna be over to you to say whatever it is you'd like to say within a few minutes. OK, so we'll start with David. They're just gonna hand the microphone along. Um, when I thought about what I wanted to, um, say here today, the title came into my mind of, um, in schools. Everything's changed and nothing's changed. Now I just want to pursue that theme of Everything's changed and nothing's changed. We have [00:03:00] a diversity group at New College. Two of our students are here today, Anna here and Natalie. So they'll keep me honest in terms of what I'm going to say. And we meet Monday on a lunch time. And yesterday lunchtime, I said, Look, I've been invited to this forum, uh, tomorrow night, and I'd like your perspective on what you think is happening in schools at the moment. From an LGBTI Q perspective, whiteboard divided it into two. on the left [00:03:30] hand side, we put what's good at new college at the moment and on the right hand side. Um, what's not so good? And I left it over to them. Then we had a red pen and a blue pen. Uh, they filled in the what's good side within three minutes and took 27 minutes to fill out the what's Not good? Um, side. And I thought I'd just tell you I I'd share with you what they think their perspective of what a college education for LGBTI [00:04:00] Q kids are like. At the moment. The top of their list for what's good is that there are chilled students at school, and that was their words chilled, um, students. And they contradicted that later on. And they said there was no bullying. They like the fact we've got a QS a. So we've got a Queer Straight Alliance. And, uh, for those of you that don't know, that means it's an open forum, an open group. It's public publicised across the school. It's a blend of queer and straight students, um, who meet together to push the frontiers [00:04:30] forward. Um, they said our school was accepting. They like the fact that we've got We're very relaxed about uniforms. So although we're very strict on uniform itself, we're completely relaxed about which parts of the uniform, uh, students wear. So you can. We would have traditionally had a boy's uniform and a girl's uniform, and now it's just a complete a complete bed. Wear what you like. As long as you're wearing uniform, you can wear what were traditionally the boys bottoms and the girls tops or or whatever. [00:05:00] Um, they love the they said they like the fact that, um, we're accepting of whatever name students want to be called. And so our administration systems within the school allow, um, for a student to have a given name, but also to have a preferred name. And those can be in contradiction to each other in terms of gender identity. And they like the fact that we had a diversity group running at school and that they did in three minutes and then the other 27 minutes, some of which is a bit of a contradiction, [00:05:30] was into, um, this derogatory language in the school. It's all around. It's something they meet. Um, every day. There are still put downs in the school from other students. Teachers don't take action, um, on those put downs so they're ignored within a classroom situation. Um, bathrooms and changing rooms are the same nightmare as they were 50 years ago within schools for our LGBTI kids. Uh, one of them said, um, I'm in year [00:06:00] 12. Now, I no longer have to do PE I no longer have to be in the changing rooms. That was my decision to come out this year because I couldn't before. Um, at that time, um, they don't like the fact that the staff keep calling them. He and she and they'd like their own pronouns. Um, and they say that people still don't understand within the school and that there is still a huge amount of education to be done. Sorry, that was more than two minutes. [00:06:30] Hi. Um, I'm Kirsty Farran. One of my roles is to coordinate the Rainbow Task Force at PPT. A. It's a small part of my job, but it's a part of my job that I enjoy the most. And within that role, um, one of the things I do is travel the country and go and visit schools and deliver workshops about making the school more inclusive. Um, I guess what I want to talk about really is my experience of doing that. I was a teacher at Newlands College before [00:07:00] I started this job, so I know David quite well, and I know Newlands College quite well. Um, but what I wanted to talk about was my experience visiting other schools and the messages that I get back from schools when I go to do a workshop and probably the biggest hurdle I think schools are facing at the moment or that they feel they're facing at the moment is every school feels like it's reinventing the wheel. And it's struggling with making the same decisions and the same, um, kind of organisational choice around things like uniform [00:07:30] toilets, changing rooms. And there's a feeling from many schools that they're unsupported in some of those decisions. So things like, for example, toilets are a really expensive thing. If you want to change them in your school and do it, um, in a you know, completely safe way, Um, and therefore it becomes something that's often done, uh, as an add on or when you're redoing your school or something like that. It's not something that's necessarily easily changed in some schools. Um, many [00:08:00] schools face challenges around, Um, I get actually, the other thing I should probably say, is that the workshops that I do generally are in, um, either girls schools or Co-ed schools. I think in the two years I've been involved, we've been to two boys schools, which I think is kind of interesting in itself. Um, but schools are also starting to face challenges and questions about the actual nature of single sex schooling. Why do we have boys, schools and girls School is a girls school still a girls school if it now [00:08:30] has trans male students in it. And what does that mean in terms of enrollments within the school? From a legal perspective, Um, as students come through. And I guess the The thing that kind of warms my heart when I go to all these schools is that although schools feel like they're struggling, they're genuinely trying to do the right thing for the young people. The reality is so that there are some teachers who haven't quite caught up with the changes. Um, and, um, I'm always interested. Every single [00:09:00] school I go into the evaluation at the end. There's always at least one teacher who puts one. It's not at all relevant to me this workshop, and I find that really hard to believe because they're working with teenagers. Of course it's relevant to them. So I think, you know well, I work for a union that represents teachers. The reality is there are some teachers in this area who are really slow to catch up and and are struggling to see what they should be doing. But I feel a sense of hope because schools are working through some of these processes [00:09:30] Tato and Te Bisley from inside out. Uh, so I was very lucky when I was, um a Well, my first high school that I went to was, um, very homophobic environment. Luckily for me, I was only there for a year. And then I moved to the first school in New Zealand that had a quest straight alliance in Nelson at NA College. And for me, as a young person, that was an amazing experience. This was back in 2000 and seven. so to have that group in my school that kind of affirmed my identity and let me know who I was was OK, [00:10:00] uh was incredible. But it was a very rare experience at that time. Very few, um, schools in the country had anything kind of like that. Um, So kind of my experience has been coming from having that, um, as a young person at school and knowing what it felt to have that, um and then supporting lots of other schools in Nelson, Um, initially to also start those groups. Um, And then after I finished school, we started to get lots of requests from other people all around the country. Kind of saying, Why does Nelson have the support? What about the rest of the country? Um, how do we get these groups in our school? [00:10:30] And that's kind of what motivated me to start inside out. So originally, um, the idea was very much focused on, um, quest, alliances and wanting to that every school in New Zealand should have a group like that for students. Um, that that was a really powerful way that we could make a change. Um, we've now been going for five years, and so over that time, we've kind of expanded that vision and kind of looked at, um, there are so many different ways that we can make schools inclusive and safe environments for young people in our community. Um, and as Chrissie kind of touched on lots of schools or some schools, particularly [00:11:00] religious schools and boys schools. Um, are gonna take a longer process often or like, aren't always ready for a group straight away. So it's other steps that might need to come first for that to be enabled. Um, that's not a structural at all. There are also lots of, um, boys and religious schools that do have these groups or are taking, um, changes. A lot of it will come back to the school staff and the senior leadership, Um, unfortunately, and kind of the culture of that school in the first place and whether the students feel safe enough to talk about their experiences or to like, if it's [00:11:30] a safe enough environment for them to challenge those kind of systems. Um, so inside out, we are a national organisation, and we do a lot of, um, all sorts of work. We kind of, um, the place that people come to for anything around schools and rainbow issues. So, um, resources. So, uh, we've got one on studying and strengthening rain diversity group. Uh, we put out a resource on making school safer for trans and gender diverse, um, young people, which we sent, um, two free copies to every secondary school in New Zealand last year. And a lot of [00:12:00] those schools actually came back and ordered more copies to distribute around their staff, which was really awesome. And I think a lot of the time now, especially looking back since when I was at high school, and it was, like, very rare for this to be talked about. Um, my school was kind of this one off to now. Look at where things have come over the last. Um, just the last five years since since I has been going, um, there's so much more kind of support and willingness from schools to to engage. Um, not all the time. Not all the time, by any means. There's still a long way to go for lots of them as well. Um, but [00:12:30] a lot of them are really grateful to be having this kind of material and and for for someone to be able to give them that kind of guidance or like, are looking for workshops like what? The PPT. A offer? What? Inside out offers. Um, so I think for me one of the biggest issues is actually the kind of lack of support from government to get behind organisations like inside out. Um, because what we're doing really is making sure schools are safe so that our young people are continuing to live. Um, if their school is not a safe place for them to be who they are, that's gonna be really detrimental to their mental health. Um, [00:13:00] yeah, so for me, I'm just kind of really frustrated. Now there's like there's clear demand from schools from students. Why the government not coming in to really kind of come behind that and support resource our work? Um and also, I think, as you touched on, there's a lot of this, like every school thinks that they have to kind of figure things out for themselves. Um, when it's not really like they come and talk to us, we'll be like it's very easy, like put up a new sign or like I don't know, there's lots of kind of things. So if there was some kind of like template policies or things like that, and like endorsed by the Ministry of Education in particular, I think [00:13:30] that would be really helpful moving forward. Um, we did work with them last year on an inclusive guide for schools around LGBTI students. So that's really awesome to come from the Ministry of Education. But at the same time, that process was really frustrating to work on them. Work on it with them, um, because most of it was doing stuff like linking to our resources, which they wouldn't fund. Um, and which we're out of print of and all this kind of stuff. It's like, OK, so you're using our work to make yourselves look good and look like you're doing something. You're not actually supporting the work. So that's kind of my little [00:14:00] thing. And the last reason I brought along is our latest one, which is on legal rights for young people with minority, um, sexualities and genders at school. And so we get a lot of questions from young people who are experiencing discrimination in their schools. Whether that's, um, issues around like, the more common things we hear about tends to be like toilets and uniforms and that kind of stuff, um, also things like, uh, I wasn't allowed to do my speech on homophobia. Um, even though that fit the assignment just because my teacher didn't like that as a topic or, um, I got told off for [00:14:30] wearing, like, a rainbow badge on my bag, Like all these kind of, like, miniscule things that are really actually acts of homophobia, biphobia and transphobia in our schools, often coming from staff. So, um, this kind of now exists as something that young people can, um, take as an external resource to their school and say, actually, these are my rights. And we worked on this, um, with community law. So it's kind of based in the law. Cool. I got a lot. I could say I'll pass it on. Thank you. Hi. Um, I'm Josh. Uh, I've been running my private [00:15:00] group at my old high school Wellington College for six years now. Um, I graduated two years ago, so I don't actually know what it's been like since I left because I left and I did not go back because it was so bad. Um, but my experience with homophobia and bullying at school was quite bad, and I felt that nobody really paid attention to it up until either It made the school bad look [00:15:30] bad or it made people realise like, Oh, this is a problem that we need to fix. So when I was in year 10 and I realised that nobody didn't, like, didn't really care about all the all the boys and the, um the trans girls at that high school Wellington College is an all boys school, but there are a few a few girls in there, but they can't come out because it's such a terrible place. Um, and I started, um, my group because [00:16:00] nobody else was doing anything and it was private It. I started it outside of school grounds and really it it was just to make sure that everybody was safe and people had someone to talk to. And there were people that were that were higher up in school that could do something about it. And some teachers were there for us. It was awesome. Um, some teachers weren't. I remember somebody that was high up in the school when I was trying to run. Um, the day of silence, [00:16:30] I was told that I was only allowed to print out 10 posters to a two hour promote the day of silence and I think you told me that it was, like, not ok for them to tell me that they only that they were only allowed to that. They told me that I was only allowed to put up 10 posters. So what I did, because I want to stick with the 10 posters. I went to the library and I printed out 10 really big, really bold and really out their posters, [00:17:00] and I stuck them everywhere throughout the school. And I gave people little stickers, um, on the day just to show their support. Um And then there were people who were showing their support because they only wanted to not speak to anybody for the whole day. But, um, yeah, it's just it's It's been a journey for all the students that have gone to Wellington College because we just don't feel heard, Uh, and nothing [00:17:30] that we ever complain about to people. It doesn't get solved. And things just keep escalating to this point where you just don't want to say anything and for like, a whole six months, I didn't tell anybody about all of my bullying, but after a while I was like, You know what I'm just gonna throw it out there because it's kind of important. Um, but yeah, I just I founded the group on the basis that, uh, it is a trust tree. It is a safe space. [00:18:00] Everybody climbs and nobody falls. And that is my look on all walks of life because I don't want anybody to fall out of a tree. I want everybody to get to the top, no matter how difficult things get. How do we pull that up, like on the spot? Good luck. Cheers, sweetie. Um, I'm I currently attend Wellington High School, and I've been running the QS a ultraviolet there [00:18:30] for This is the second year now, and I'm kind of the main coordinator and plant I do all the like book work or the legal work or the planning things out, writing things out, and so that's been pretty successful. We've had a, like, has a lot more accepting of, I guess, LGBT students. Because we have no uniform. We have. It's coed. Um, we have a really open senior staff. Like I'm like mates with all the deputy principals and the principal, like, I make them coffee and whatnot. So it's really nice to have, [00:19:00] like, an open relationship with them. And I guess the biggest thing that we're trying to focus on as a school is both promoting, um, like, quite out loud pride instead of, um, you know, closeted pride and trying to make our school like the safest place it can possibly be. We've done a lot of work with Tabby, and we've done a lot of work with the rest of the inside out team and like, Conor and whatnot. And so we're trying, I think, now, to promote, um, where you [00:19:30] created an event a couple of years back called out loud. It was kind of an alternative to day of silence, because you're like, Day of silence is great, all right? And what not and showing solidarity to, like, LGBT movement or what not, But how about we just the exact opposite, and, like, make a whole day of it, make it really loud, make it really fun, Like, start selling me and we raise money for inside out, which we'll be doing again this year. So hit us up. Um, and so that's kind of the goal, as I can, uh, just our school event and [00:20:00] throughout running ultraviolet. It just provides a safe space every Thursday lunchtime where you know all your groups can come and hang out and we can have lessons. We do a bit of sex, ed. We do a lot of, um, like talking about LGBT people in politics or like disabled LGBT people. And so it's kind of just like highlighting all the issues that we should address. And like all the inclusiveness that needs to happen, I think what we want to do this year is helping other schools in our area. So places like Wellington, East Coast College or Wellington College itself [00:20:30] just to try and get, um their inclusiveness is almost like not as probably even better than Wellington highs, which is proving to be really difficult. But we we have the opportunity to work with Tabby. We have the opportunity to work with, you know, like pride and like, um, Wellington organisation. So yeah, really excited about that? I'm super busy right now. It's gonna It's gonna be fine, but yeah. Um, I'm I go to Wellington High now, and I have been there for [00:21:00] almost a year. Maybe, um, it's really good. Like the teachers at the start of the year asked pronouns and like, preferred names and you can have preferred names on the roll, and it's really good. But, um, before that, I went to Queen Margaret College, which wasn't so good. Um, what I'm gonna be talking about is the the QS a which I started, Um, so, after years of years of previous students before me trying to get it, um, they would not allow it. It was specifically the principal, [00:21:30] um, as well as the senior staff and, like, lots of them were on board, but the principal just wouldn't allow it. So I had to go to Tabby who, um, talked to community law and was just and they told us like, OK, that's not legal. So we got a letter from them who we showed to our principal and the senior staff, and they were like, OK, fine. But here are the rules, and the rules were, um, had to be seniors only because what if the young ones thought they were gay? [00:22:00] Um, it had to be called the Diversity group, which is fine. Um uh, word of mouth only. No posters up, no Facebook presents. You can only tell people about it. Um, not in the notices. Nowhere. Which we weren't too happy about. Um and it had to be held in the council's office, which is really small, and it also made us feel like it was something to be fixed, which obviously it isn't. So, um, [00:22:30] that was a struggle for a while. And, um, it only got fixed when the principal left Ju just this year. So now they've got a new principal who's really good, but, um, those were the struggles at Queen Margaret's, and the teachers were all all right about it, like I emailed them so with my pronouns and names saying, Hey, this is what's up. And they were all pretty good about it as well as the students. But, um, I know several students in the years above and below me who [00:23:00] were bullied out of Queen Margaret's because they were LGBT, especially Trans, and it's getting better. But there's still ages to go. And that's Yeah, that was a fantastic array of, uh, inputs here from, um, teachers and organisers and, of course, people living through recent times. Um, it's an It's an unimaginable change for me to listen to how New Zealand schools have [00:23:30] changed over the past decades. I was lucky enough to go to Burnside High in in, um in Christchurch. And Robin Duff was my English teacher. And so he was chair of the PPT A or whatever. The president of the PPT a, um, an out gay man. And this was in the 19 seventies, Um, and he was someone who took young LGBT students under his wing way back then. But of course, so many. And I include myself among the, uh, we [00:24:00] went out, we were too terrified, even even with this very friendly, wonderful person there to support us. So it's fantastic to hear there are organisations now self organised, um, within schools. But as we heard, there's still a long way to go. All right, so now it's time to hear from everyone who's come. So what we're gonna do now is I'll I'll just hand this microphone around. You can direct your questions or comments to the entire entire panel or to, [00:24:30] uh, particular people. If you've got a question that you'd like to ask to someone specifically. So if someone does have a question just put your hand up now and I'll come and hand you the microphone. Yes. Hello. Um, I was just wondering if there were any specific things when you establish queer straight alliances or queer advocacy groups that were easier to do. And then things or that tend to be done quite quickly versus things that if people seem to keep putting roadblocks on, especially [00:25:00] in the long term. But also in the short term, uh, roadblocks. Um, there was a There was a lot of roadblocks when I was organising my one because everybody would be like, Why are you all in that room like you? A lot of people would be like, Why are you all inside the library like meeting room? That that's really gay. And I was like, Well, that's the point. I mean, we're we're trying to do something about it, or people would be like nobody actually cares. And it's like, Well, people cared enough to kick you out of the [00:25:30] room. So we're here now. Um, other roadblocks walking around school was a roadblock. You at my school, you couldn't really walk around and keep your head up. Because if you did, if you made eye contact with the wrong person. You are in so much trouble. Um, and some of the easy things to get around was just staying in class or like staying after, for me, at least, was staying after class and talking to your teacher and being [00:26:00] like, Oh, I'm being bothered by this person. And then sometimes it would get sorted out. Sometimes it would go into the trash, and other times it would just, like, disappear completely. Um, but yeah, it was It's kind of difficult. Kind of. Yeah, um, something that was really easy was getting people along because apparently there's heaps of LGBT people at Queen Margaret's, um, but then the the hard thing was getting [00:26:30] teachers on board, um, who were willing to put in the time to supervise or help out young LGBT students. How? How often you have to get the big legal stick out like you did with Queen Margaret. Um, fortunately, I think that's the only time it doesn't make clean Mars look good. Um, it has it has come close. Another. Um, I may have sent it recently. Someone too. Actually, I can't remember. Um, [00:27:00] yeah, but now we've got that guide, which will hopefully kind of mean it won't get to that point where we need to have a a letter directly to the school. Kind of saying and so our our process after which we haven't had to do. But, um, if they had denied that after that kind of legal opinion, we would have been supported, um, neo and the school, the students to take it to the Human Rights Commission. So that's kind of what we would offer a school in that situation. Um, yeah, going back to the the question. I think it's really, um, dependent on the school itself, like it's and the student, [00:27:30] too. Like everybody's experience is different and every school is so different. So for some schools, like starting a group might be a really easy thing. But getting, um, the teachers to use the right pronouns might be really, really difficult. Um, yeah, so I think. And I think, too, if we look at different parts of our community. Um, for example, a gay student who's very confident in their identity may not have any, um, trouble being bullied at school because often if you put yourself out there enough, then people will kind of if you're confident in yourself, people won't give you so much stuff. [00:28:00] Um, not always, But often we kind of see that. And whereas if you, um if you are a trans person, for example maybe facing, um um, you might be facing a lot more kind of, um, bullying and discrimination. So we've definitely had schools, too, Where two students experience from within our community, Um, differ, like, really vastly. So I went to high school was like relatively easy to get both students on board [00:28:30] and both teachers on board, because the teachers are about being really inclusive. And we have, like, a restorative process for, like, all sorts of, um, different issues. The hottest thing is just kind of what Tabby said was legal matters. So like getting the bathroom sort in the changing rooms and then getting, um, uh, open gender category in athletics because there's a whole lot of laws and regulations surrounding that. And like it, can you be trans and, like attend athletics on a you know, regional level. So it's difficult to get past, you know, like governmental [00:29:00] barriers, and also get it like difficult getting like, if you need funding for certain things, it's frustrating, but yeah, different experiences. So Katie Hodgson, Onslow College College, Ex Western Heights High School. Um, I. I can't take any responsibility. So I responded when, um, there was a need. Appeared at the school for a gay straight [00:29:30] alliance. Now, one of the things for me is I'm I'm an art teacher at school, and I know with that comes responsibility. Um uh for example, our gay straight allowances are coming from the student's perspective. OK, um, so for myself, I know I there's the conflict between me being someone who's in a position of power, and I'm also a position of responsibility and also [00:30:00] in a position of recognising a need but also recognising that they it really needs to come from the students. I guess my question is for you guys in terms of what you would want from someone like me, what would you want? What would that look like? Say, um, I kind of I think the most important thing for being like a teacher in that kind of position [00:30:30] is kind of acting as like an enabler for things, So it's a lot more difficult to voice out on a larger scale if you're a student and to voice out for legal matters if you're a student. So I think, um, being like a person to go to for that is one of the most important things. And I I like it high. It's a lot, well, high. It's a lot more, um, like less of an authority imbalance between students and peers, at least at least for myself and for ultraviolet because we have, you know, like [00:31:00] teacher like enablers rather than teacher micro managers. So I guess it's just, you know, like taking it with a grain of salt and trying to, like, find out what works and what you need to be there. And, like just listening to the students and what they need rather than trying to be like, you know, forcing them into situations like should we do like like this? Or you should do this as like USA. I think that's important for students to know that they have, like the power to kind of get things going. But they have you to go to [00:31:30] Um, I think it's good from a teacher's perspective, because I I know kind of a bit of both perspectives because I've, like, graduated school and, like I was had a really close relationship with all the teachers that were really supportive. So I knew what they would have to do to have something, um, be done. So I think it's best if teachers who are either supportive or out or feel [00:32:00] that they need to, uh, be be up at some point at some height of support for the students is to remain on neutral ground. So be there for the students, but also be there for the people who aren't wanting to accept them. Because then you have to understand from both sides because you have to understand how the the queer kids, the students [00:32:30] going to get along with the people who don't believe in them. If if you're only focused on one side of something, the other side can get really, really angry and vice versa. Um, it's I. I think if everybody understands each other and creates a A grounds for where we can all work together, it would be a lot better for a lot more people. Um, just really quickly just let the students lead it like at Q MC, The councillor [00:33:00] wanted to do everything even though it was a student run club. So, like, once you've got it going, let the students like, obviously support. But yeah, absolutely. What these two have said kind of letting the students lead it. But I think being a visible presence makes like such a difference to the students knowing that there is kind of an L a among staff. Um, I know for me, having like an art teacher at my school meant so much as a young person and and that person not being afraid to kind of show that. And I don't I don't think that [00:33:30] responsibility should be on every art teacher, but, um, I know it made a difference to me and, um I think, yeah, just being a real advocate for that group and using your your privileged position as a staff member to kind of advocate for them or, um, go along if they are meeting with senior leadership about something going along with that and supporting their and kind of being that in between where you can, um but letting them be the ones deciding what they're fighting for and that kind of thing. Um, I was just gonna say, I think as a teacher, being an art teacher [00:34:00] is a is a really critical thing because you're showing that, you know, as a teacher, you're a normal person. Um, and I know I was certainly accused by one of my colleagues, not maliciously, but, you know, she said to me one day, Oh, the students know so much about you that's so wrong that you're revealing so much of your personal life. And I said, Well, what do they actually know about me? They know that I have a female partner and they know I have a cat. They don't know the name of my partner. They've never met [00:34:30] my partner. They know your who your husband is. They've met your Children. They know where you live. I said they know a lot more about your personal life than they know about mine. So I think sometimes a different kind of bar is placed on, um, out teachers because people you know are are concerned that you're gonna be ramming it down, the students throats and all this sort of stuff. And it's not like that at all. The other thing I would say, too, is that amongst the membership of PPT. A, there are teachers who don't feel safe to be out [00:35:00] in their school. And I know this is about, um, really a focus on young people. But I think we also need to remember that for a lot of, um, teachers, they are in communities where they don't feel safe to be out. And I think that's really sad that if the teachers feel like they can't be out, imagine what it must be like to be a young person in that school. A university lecturer at Victoria and I've only just put a rainbow flag on my door after meeting with, um, the students, uh, unq students who said that they appreciated [00:35:30] it. I also struggle with this power gradient power. Gradient is extreme, so I like my office to be very neutral and grey in a sense that the students don't feel that they're coming into anything where they're being judged in any way at all. It's entirely academic, but, um, but I think it's worth pointing out that we exist everywhere, especially at university, too. Is anyone at university, By the way, anyone just a few few people. Very good. Any more questions? [00:36:00] Oh, yes. Thank you. I'm I'm particularly interested to hear from the representatives whether they be teachers or students, including in the audience provision that is currently being made within your school of the school that you know of for unisex toilets and unisex changing rooms. Now, David, I on made reference to the fact that, uh, the change rooms do have implications for some people as far as whether they participate [00:36:30] in PE or not. So I'd be just interested. Also, people from the floor to to contribute to this from your own knowledge. Um, from from my point of view, um, Quest trade alliance. Last year, their project was to put a proposal to the board of trustees for unisex toilets. Um, which they did very successfully. Um, but, um, as Kirsty said, [00:37:00] there's huge, huge sums of money involved. You're talking tens of thousands of dollars for conversions and probably close to, um, hundreds of, uh, you know, just over 100,000 mark. Um, so, uh, for us, it's on our, um, property plan. It's on the five year property plan, but there we go. It's A. It's a lot of money when there are a lot of pressures on schools to fix roofs and to mend the plumbing and to replace the 50 [00:37:30] year old boiler and all that sort of stuff. So there there are. There's not enough money to to go around. On the other hand, Wellington High School. So we there was in my year nine when I just first joined the QS a then known as Queer Support. Um, it was our very first project to get gender neutral at least bathrooms and, like, if we're lucky, a changing room and so that was pitched by the leaders, then who I won't name. And also, um, another like outside source [00:38:00] who just graduated from high that wanted to help with that. And so the main thing was just writing the letter of why it was important and pitching that to the board, making sure everybody was on the same page of why we needed them and where they would go. And so it might just be unique to Wellington High. But we have like, uh, quite a few bathrooms, like we have a bathroom block because it would were mainly a vertical school. I guess you could say And so it was basically just pick a floor. And the most money involved was [00:38:30] just removing, like changing the signs from girls bathroom to boys, bathroom to bathroom like that was it? There are already a couple of changing rooms in the very like top ones that worked out well, but I think almost to contradict the point of, like tens of thousands of dollars pour into it. I don't think it's necessary to, um, say that because, uh, genuinely, the most thing you have to do is just, like pick a bathroom to change or pick all of them to change and just just change the signs. I think a lot of [00:39:00] like one of the main excuses by the board is like, Oh, it will cost so much money when really it won't And it's doing so much good to all of the LGBT students or all the people who just don't like feel comfortable defining in like an A or B category of gender. I think it's within their full right to say, like I like an open space bathroom, so yeah, no, we have that had been here for four years. Is anyone from the floor who'd like to add something about their experience at their school [00:39:30] or from I've only been at the school since the start of term, but we have unisex toilets. Hi. My name is Sarah. I'm actually here as a parent. And, um, I've met you before when my daughter first came out. And I'm interested to meet you. David, I've got a 10 year old transgender daughter, and she's in the Newlands community. Um, when [00:40:00] we had the bathroom discussion with the school, the decision was made that the staff toilets would become un at the time. They did actually have a gay teacher at the school, and so that made it a little bit easier. But, um, again, I mean, I'm working in education as well the pressures and the amount of money it is to change those kind of things. Excuse me. I'm a bit It's like, um, puts a lot of pressure on schools, but my daughter still gets bullied [00:40:30] going into the girls toilets at her current primary school. Um, and I think my question for you, Christine David, is Has there been Have you done any work with the intermediate in the primary schools. And are you looking at doing things like that? Because it's very much needed? Um, we're kind of on our own sailing through this. I know a lot of the focus is on young people and youth, and I think that's fantastic, and I don't want to take away from that. But for my daughter, my family, there's zero support. We [00:41:00] don't know where we should go to get support. And although our primary school has been fantastic, um, I think the general feeling I get is yes, you can have whatever you want. Let's just not make a big song and dance about it so my daughter can be who she is at her school, but just not too loudly, Um, and that can get very frustrating as a parent, because you want your child to obviously be everything they want to be and be supported, but also [00:41:30] from an education point of view, we've got health education this year, and I have tried repeatedly to start a dialogue with my school about how they're going to include my daughter in that. Where is she gonna go when they split the boys in that room. The girls in that room and how are they gonna discuss gender? So that's as a parent. And then as an educator, Mr Duff is my English teacher at Burnside as well. Small world. Um, I'm really interested in that. I'm interested in how we start to draw down the education [00:42:00] and the practises you have happening in high school and get them into the intermediate and get them into the primary school because our kids don't suddenly just become trans when they're 14 or they don't suddenly become gay when they're 14 and enter a high school. So, yeah, that's I've got lots of things I could say that that's a good start. I'll I'll start. Should I, David, um, one of the challenges for PPT A is that we're a secondary teachers union. And so therefore, um, you know, I mean, secondary teachers are paying subscriptions to be part of [00:42:30] our union, so therefore, obviously we work with secondary schools, But what I would say is, I I've put quite hard to try and get at least into intermediate schools in a slightly devious way, where if schools contact me if we have one member in that school, and it's usually a technology teacher. Then I would argue that we have membership there. And so therefore, we could work with that school, and I've tried to convince intermediate schools that that would be a useful thing, but I haven't got there yet. Um, we have to be really careful [00:43:00] about not stepping on the primary teachers. Um, patch and, um, as far as I'm aware, they do absolutely nothing in this area, which is which is a challenge. The other thing that I would say, too, is that, um when we go to an area school, so an area school, if you don't know what an area school is, it covers everything from year 1 to 13 in a single on a single site. Um, our workshop, um, is offered to the whole staff. So there are pockets [00:43:30] where teachers who are in primary and intermediate, um, are getting our message. But it is a real challenge, and I think it's a It's a real issue. When you look at the statistics from the Youth 2000 survey. How many students know by the age of 11 that they're either the same or both Sex attracted or that they're transgender, that, you know, it's not like you. Suddenly you're right. You don't turn on a switch when you get to secondary school and suddenly say, Oh, look at that. Now I realise that I'm a lesbian. Um, it it doesn't work like [00:44:00] that. And I think there is a need to move into, um, younger, you know, to support schools to support younger people. But I'm not I'm not the answer. Um, but I'm trying in slightly subversive ways that keep doing it. You raised heaps and heaps of issues. Um and, um, I, I think, sort of in the general public's defence. What I'd like to say is that things are moving so rapidly in these areas that even [00:44:30] us who are so close to it, have some difficulty keeping up with the changes that are happening within our society and particularly with in the youth society, that those people that are on the fringes or completely outside Sometimes what I think is we perceive as resistance from them is just a lack of understanding of what's going on. And there's a fair amount of education that needs to go on. I'd love to get? Um, I may have more links into the new I do [00:45:00] have more links into the new educational community. Then you might have I'd love to get alongside you and see what crow bars. We can work together to end up at school, but she's still she starts next year, and we just need some help. And I am aware of who are not openly out who need that support. Right now. We need to talk. Is everyone else who'd like to talk? Just on this issue is about Started off with bathrooms. Oh, sorry. Here we go. [00:45:30] Yeah. So first, just really want to acknowledge what the situation that you're in and that a lot of people are in because there isn't that support, and that sucks. Um, just yeah, really feel that. And again, back to what I said at the start. If we I guess our point of view from inside out was that we would love to be able to do that work. It's just a matter of capacity. We're struggling to do what we are already doing. Um, And to do that well, we need we need to have that focus area. Um however, [00:46:00] we do? If a school reaches out to us, then we will work with them. Um, we tried to get to reach out to you. We just don't have the capacity to put a lot of work. We just don't have the resourcing to to go out there and encourage them to come to us. Um, but if they are willing to pay us for training, um, then we would absolutely love to do that. We have worked with a few intermediates. Um, and sometimes we get really, like last year. I remember we got a few emails from, like, intermediate students who were doing their like assignments on stuff [00:46:30] and wanted to do like an interview about transphobia and stuff. And I was like, This is amazing at this age, even at 10 are very aware of these social issues. But as adults, we seem to think that they're too young to discuss them or handle them. This is exactly what my daughter is facing as well. Is that No, you're a child. You do not know what you're talking about. So just sit down and be quiet. And so that's a dialogue we need to show for sure. get him on the gun. Yeah, I think that's really important because, you [00:47:00] know, whenever we have, like discussions with kids, even with stuff about, like, not gay related issues, just like, you know, bullying or like, even stuff like climate change, they really like they absorb it all. And so I don't know why we don't have, like, you know, gender education in primary schools and people just not being educated about things. My postgraduate work has been looking at this stuff, and a lot of it comes from fear and misunderstanding. So that's what you guys do. What you guys are doing is shift it, helping [00:47:30] to shift that, and it will trickle down just very slowly. Uh, I guess one more thing is that some of and wherever possible, we do try to make our work inclusive of the broader education spectrum. So that resource on making schools safer for trans youth, for example, is is definitely applicable to most school settings. Um, this year we're doing a new project which is focused on, um, kind of rainbow visibility in libraries. So that will be something that we will be open to any age group of library Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and just really [00:48:00] trying to have that kind of in school and community libraries Representation of rainbow communities. Getting schools to do a display once. Let's see. It doesn't sound like much, but I kind of OK, um, my school did a, um an ex. An exhibit an ex. Not really an exhibit. Um, it was like a a thing in the library. It's like a It's called a It's called a punk. Just play board. Thank you. Um, um, so, uh, my the [00:48:30] group that I ran that I run Oh, God. Um uh, we we picked out a lot of different books. Uh, that had to do with queer people and queer straight alliances and how it's progressed through the years. And like the history of gay people and what we've had to go through, and we just put it up in one whole display and people students mostly were actually paying attention to it. Some people were picking up the books and reading it and being like, Oh, [00:49:00] I should really stop bullying these people and some. Yeah, um, some boys who had bullied me in the past when they saw that they came up to me and apologised. So even if it's just those little things that that you, it just in accepts the idea into other people's brains that it's so that there is something wrong. But it's it's not being gay. Being gay is OK, this is the trust tree. Everybody climbs and nobody falls. [00:49:30] I just wanted to add to what you are saying. I am co leading um, Newlands colleges QS A this year. Um, last year we touched on changing the health curriculum. So when your daughter gets to Newlands College, she will not need to worry about which group she's going to go into. It will. We wanted to get We're going to start off with getting more of it out there because all [00:50:00] we ever we we when we did health, it was they dipped a toe into the LGBT Q pool and that was it. And so we're going to get them to dive in. They are going to get in that pool. Um, and if they don't, we will push them. No. Um but yes. So they brought up a very good point. Um, in the QSA, I will try to get involved [00:50:30] with the intermediate and the primary, if possible. Because if we get students from five knowing that it's OK to like everyone or not everyone or people who look the same as them, then they're then going to go into college and intermediate and university and life and know that that's normal and normalising [00:51:00] removing. And so five year olds, when they're then 20 they're going to see if other people if other people are going, Hey, you know, that's kind of gay. They're gonna be like, What's wrong with being gay? So it's just, yeah, we need to start kids early if you need resources for, like sorry if you need resources for like any health related things hit us up or question [00:51:30] Mark Tabb me up because, boy, do we have them. If you want a parent L I and new ones to work alongside you, I'm more than happy. You. First of all, that's a really suave way to like get someone's number. But but, um, I had a comment and a question, but now I've got two comments and a question 1st. 1st of all, if you're looking for gay literature, shameless plug for gracefully Grayson. It's a great book. Love it. Um, my second [00:52:00] comment is you're a great parent. I love you. And my third call. My My question actually is to Miss Barron and Mr Pegram. How was it? Like when you first came out at school to your students? What? What? What happened? What was it like? Oh, when I did my teacher education, which was quite a long time ago in the 19 nineties, uh, I made a decision that I wasn't going to be out as a student teacher because I wanted a job [00:52:30] at the end, and I was fearful that I might not get one. And as soon as I started teaching, I was out. And, uh, uh, I think being out has been hugely protective for me and teaching I. I started teaching at the same time as a colleague who didn't want to be out and spent two years fighting fires with people. Kind of name calling. And, um, the story I used to describe this for myself is walking into the classroom one day and a student I don't I didn't see who it was. I just heard a voice, [00:53:00] um, as I walked into the room. All I heard was Dios sour, and I was immediately offended by the implication. I was old for a start. And so I said at the end of the lesson, you know, whoever said that, could you just stay behind at the end and carry it on? Have my lesson At the end, seven boys all stayed behind, and they all told me what they said. They'd said other things as well that I hadn't heard. Sometimes it's helpful being a bit deaf. And I said to them, That's like me saying to you Year nine, Maori boy, because [00:53:30] you know, he was a Maori boy and I I said that This, you know, it doesn't mean anything. It doesn't offend me if you call me a lesbian because I am a lesbian and I just never got hassled again. And so I think there's a huge amount of power in that. But I think the other kind of side of that is for the queer kids. It was really important to be out as a teacher. And, you know, sometimes, um, I was the first person that they came out to, and, um uh you know, it was [00:54:00] one of those kind of privileges almost as a teacher that you were able to support young people as they kind of started on their own journey to work out where they were going to go and that you know what, What was gonna happen for them, where they were going to end up? Um, I've never had any problem but or never had any serious problem. But I think that, uh, queer teachers are in the same as any other minority group. That's a teacher. You have to be good, otherwise you be picked on. So [00:54:30] I've always got the impression that if I wasn't good at what I do, and I think I'm good at what I do that I wasn't good at at what I do, my sexual orientation would be picked upon as the excuse to have a go at me. And I think that's the same for for all sorts of minority groups within the teaching profession and perhaps within the wider community as well. What stage of your career did you come out? Um, Well, Robin Duff keeps on being mentioned. Um, here and, um [00:55:00] really Oh, a little bit um, in England that that's over 30 years ago. But but really, here in New Zealand. Just about 30 years ago, a gay teachers gay lesbian Teachers group was formed by Robin and, um, one of his, um, friends called gays and lesbians everywhere in education. And, uh, we had a fair amount of media publicity at the time, So, uh, for a number of articles in the post and then the local papers And, um so, yeah, that was 30 [00:55:30] years ago. Can I just say I'm amazed by the stories of courage we're hearing from all these young people coming out and setting up their own organisations in the face of adversity. And, um, I just take my hats off to you all for for pushing on and, um, doing it. We all feel at risk when we come out, um, come out of the closet first. But to do it at school and not know that you're going to be supported is a massive thing. So I'm I'm amazed and very, very admiring [00:56:00] on the side of the stage. Um, any other comments from the floor to you? I was just rather disappointed. Um, the limited progress at well in college because I remember the long term principal. I think he might just be finishing. But when he came to that job so many years ago, he he's he I remember him saying that he want he was going to address homophobia. So that's somebody at the top. I'm just I'm just wondering, Josh, if you got any sort of comment on that in school [00:56:30] um indeed, so were Were you a teacher at Wellington College or were you? No. OK, um so there is only so much that the headmaster can do. Um and I mean that in the sense that I've I've seen. I've seen him. I've spoken to him a lot. Every time he saw me throughout high school or any of the boys that were also being bullied, he would always ask them he would stop them, even if they're about to get on the bus like, are you OK? And [00:57:00] it was really helpful that that was a thing, because that at least we could speak to him directly because nobody, a majority of people wouldn't even see the headmaster. Most of the time, you would only see your teachers or, um your tutors are the teacher aides, and that's all you would have to talk to. So he was there in the sense that he was supporting us like that. But I feel that just talking about it really doesn't do anything. You have to actually take [00:57:30] an action. Um, and that's part of the reason why I found it here in the first place was because nobody was listening to us. Nobody was really doing anything. People were saying that they were doing something and nothing had been done. I remember reporting, um, an incident that happened. And then I got I went back to the same person that I reported it to a little while later, and they were just like what? Well, one thing. And I was like, You forgot. OK, thanks. [00:58:00] You're a decent person. Um, but, uh, it's it's It's such a difficult thing to talk about that school because if you didn't fit a certain category a certain hierarchy in the social hierarchy of the school, for instance, if you didn't do a sport if you weren't in any production, if you weren't a prefect, if you weren't a leader of some sort of thing you didn't really matter like if you were in a sports team [00:58:30] and you like this happened to me. I reported somebody who was bullying me and a few of my other friends, and they were only given one detention. But the thing that they had done was so bad and at such a huge magnitude that it was only one detention. The reason why was because he had rugby practise after school and he had to go play the game because the school was so fixated on keeping that trophy cabinet full. [00:59:00] And that is the most annoying thing is because is that they're more worried about how they look towards towards everybody else, that they don't realise what they're not doing for. The students who need those things are making them look even worse, which is why things explode like every time well into college goes on the news. I'm like, Oh, here we are again like it's it's so bad, it's It's not a safe place. It's coming from a personal point of view. It's not a safe space for [00:59:30] students, not a safe space for some teachers. And it's just not a safe space for even kids who are an intermediate Coming in like when you said before that your daughter is going is like you don't know what she's gonna go through when she gets into college. Like I feel for that because I didn't know what I was getting into going to an all boys school like I was. The reason the reason how I figured out I was gay [01:00:00] was like, Oh, my God, look, Orlando Bloom and I was like, Whoa, I'm gay! But And then I realised, like, um and then I realised high school. I was like, Oh, there's a lot of boys there and a lot of problems and I didn't I didn't have time to understand that when I went into year nine. So I think getting students while they're young and telling people that things need to be done is what's going to make things better for everyone else. Like if you're gay or not, if you're accepting or not, it's just gonna make things better for everyone [01:00:30] because, like if you if you don't believe in gay people or gay marriage, just don't marry somebody of the same sex. I'm back, Um, so I'm no longer at, uh, high school. I'm now enjoying university, but there was a QS a sit up, Um, soon after I left and I still kind of sitting up, and I was really just wondering what your advice would be a in setting up. And also then, especially in approaching the [01:01:00] school leadership around specific issues and proposals and things like that, especially because they recently got, like, allocated $13 million to help rebuild the school or not rebuild it. But change it. So I was just wondering from everyone, because clearly there's a lot of angles here. What would your advice be to up and coming? Q SAS? Um, for the leaders, there's a Wellington QS, a leaders group, and that's been really helpful, like there's lots of resources and you can talk about what, what [01:01:30] direction You want to go with the group and like you can. It's really good. You can also connect with all the other leaders in like the Wellington region, so you can like, make connections and help other people out and get resource to them. And it's like How would you, like, supervise by inside out and kind of run by people there So it's just so helpful to have access to, like, literally anything you could want. But Tabby is probably your girl for the question. Oh, yes. Um [01:02:00] um, for me starting because they're starting a QS a right or trying to Oh, they've just started. Ok, um, if it's entirely student run, um, it's it's better if you have bigger numbers because that you won't have to have one person doing everything. Um, I started my one myself. That was girl, that was stressful. Um uh, and it was like the the second I had [01:02:30] more people coming into the group and being like, I can help, I can do this. It was so much easier. Um, so going on Facebook pages where other leaders are going to going to inside out and having meetings with other people are just going out into town and hanging out with other people or people who have just left high school or people who have just started uni. It's easier to work together in a big group rather than work by yourself in your own little corner and and just have everything [01:03:00] on your back. It just doesn't feel good. Uh, so I know you're talking about a school in south, um, central Otago. Is that right? Yeah. So, unfortunately, don't have access to our Wellington QS a support group. Um, we get first disconnecting with inside out. We have a national schools network. We can send them out resources we're available to do, um, video or email chats with people. Kind of like digital mentoring around, um, groups with anyone in the country. Um, I think in terms of that stuff, like getting things through senior leadership, et cetera. [01:03:30] Having like an ally on the staff, like having a staff member or several that are supporting the group that can, um, help them with those. I think Josh raised a really great, um, point about where possible, Not having it all full on one student because that people burn out and it can actually be a huge responsibility. Um, being like and so he was dressed up. Yeah, being, um, being one. Um, I know when I was at school, just being like that person at school and everyone, even the staff would come to you for [01:04:00] everything. Um, and often you're dealing with other young people who might be having really hard mental health times. Back when I was at school, there were people being kicked out of home, Um, all sorts of stuff, and having that as a young person, feeling like that's your responsibility to respond to can be huge. So definitely connecting them in with, um, support from their peers, their staff and that will be made like a top thing. Um, reading our resources using them. Um, the one on studying and strength of diversity groups has heaps of tips on kind of what to do challenges that come up all sorts of stuff. [01:04:30] Google inside out. Ask for Tabby. Have an ally on the staff. Just a quick point. Um, the easiest, like the best thing that we've done for, like continuation of a group is try and have at least one person in one year who's like, willing to help out, because then you know that there's always gonna be at least somebody at a meeting. If somebody's like on a school trip or like the club might die, it's it's good to have like a junior. That's like I am really keen to find them, um, something good for starting. [01:05:00] Q SAS is asking the students what they want. Like, um, we had a, like, an anonymous survey. If anyone didn't want to speak up because it can often be really hard to start the discussion. And, um, asking students at Queen Margaret was just the best way for us to see what they wanted to do and where they want to go with it. Well, I think we're out of time. So, um, we can continue the discussion of, um, over refreshments, which are gonna be through that door and, uh, two flights up to, um, the common room before [01:05:30] we do this first up. That way, though, um, I'd just like to, uh, thank our panel so very much. Um, let's all show our gratitude. It's really great to to hear these. These courageous stories and so much progress has been in in, um, our lifetimes. Um, I'd also like to thank very much for the community of Saint Andrews on the terrace who have provided this wonderful space to us. The Reverend Susan Jon Jones, [01:06:00] Jim tray from the Saint Andrews community. Other volunteers who have made this possible. I like to thank inside out for being there. Um, David and Kirsty for coming to speak. And Josh and Neo, Thank you so much. So, um, now we will, uh, move upstairs, so thanks very much for everyone for coming.

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TITLE: Rainbow elders panel (2018)
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VOICES: Amanduh la Whore; Colin Daley; Georgina Beyer; Kay Jones; Maggie Shippam; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Prue Hyman; Rosie Leadbitter
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 17-19 Tory Street; 1950s; 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; 2000s; 2010s; About Face: Jewel's Darl (tv, 1985); Alfies 1; Amanduh la Whore; Aotearoa New Zealand; April Ashley; Auckland; Australia; Bob Scott Retirement Village (Lower Hutt); Brian Tamaki; Caitlyn Jenner; Carmen Rupe; Carterton; Carterton Community Centre; Catherine Tizard; Cees Kooge; Change for the Better: The Story of Georgina Beyer As Told to Cathy Casey (2000, book); Chris Carter; Christchurch; Christine Jorgensen; Civil Union Act (2004); Colin Daley; Dana de Milo; Danny La Rue; Danyon Loader; Dennis Altman; Dominion Post (newspaper); Dorothy Booth; Edmund Hillary; Enough is Enough (2004, Destiny Church rally); Fergus Collinson; Fran Wilde; Gateways club (London); Gay Christian Network; Georgina Beyer; Government House; HIV / AIDS; Helen Clark; Holmes (tv); Homosexual Law Reform; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Homosexual: oppression and liberation (book); Human Rights Act (1993); InsideOUT Kōaro; Intersex Trust Aotearoa New Zealand (ITANZ); Jan Morris; Japan; Jem Traylen; Jim Bolger; Joan Bolger; Judith Dale; Judith Tizard; Julian Mounter; Julie Watson; Kassie Hartendorp; Kay Jones; Kerry Prendergast; Lesbian Line (Wellington); Lexie Matheson; Lianne Dalziel; London; Maggie Shippam; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Member of Parliament; Metropolitan Community Church; Mormonism; Māori; National Party; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; New Zealand Labour Party; Norman Jones; Nuremberg Rally; Older People; Onslow College; Out (magazine); Out in the Park (Wellington); Owen Shanks; Parliament buildings; Paul Henry; Paul Holmes; Peter Wells; Phil Parkinson; Pink Triangle (magazine); Pink Triangle collective; Playboy (magazine); Pope John Paul II; Prostitution Reform Act (2003); Prue Hyman; QUILTED BANANAS (Wellington Access Radio); Queen Elizabeth II; Queen Street (Auckland); Rainbow Elders Panel (2018); Resource Management Act (1991); Richard Hanna; Rodney Knight; Rosie Leadbitter; Ruth Richardson; Salvation Army; School's Out (Wellington); Scott Kennedy; Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar; Sonja Davies; St. Vincent's Hospital (Sydney); Steve Danby; Stonewall (UK group); Sydney; Tabby Besley; Tim Barnett; Tiny Tina; Tipene O'Regan; Tokoroa; Troy Perry; United Kingdom; United States of America; Victoria Club; Vivian Street; Vladimir Luxuria; Wairarapa; Wellington; Whanganui; William Woodley-Hartley; Winston Peters; Youthline; a gay disease (HIV AIDS); acceptance; accessibility; activism; alcohol; anti Vietnam War protest; bars; benefits; binary; bisexual; books; brass bands; burnout; censorship; children; church; community; council; counselling; courts; cricket; cruising; deafness; disability; dog; drag; economics; economist; education; elders; faith; farm; farming; feminism; freaks; french; friends; gender identity; gender illusionist; health; history; homelessness; homophobia; homosexual; homosexual law reform; honesty; hope; hospital; human rights; humour; identity; internet; intersex; iwi; knowledge; leadership; lesbian; lesbian feminism; library; local government; marginalisation; marginalised communities; mayor; media; non-binary; online ministry; onsen; opportunity shop; pets; police; politics; protest; public toilet; public transport; queer; religion; renal failure; respect; rest homes; rural; school; second-wave feminism; sex work; shoes; sport; sports dyke; sprung; squash; support; television; tikanga; tinnitus; trans; transexual; transgender; transition; transvestite; walking; wisdom; youth; youth work
DATE: 25 February 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: 17-19 Tory Street, 17-19 Tory Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the Rainbow elders panel, held during Wellington's Pride festival at 19 Tory Street on 25 February 2018. The event was organised by InsideOUT and hosted by Maggie Shippam and Rosie Leadbitter. A special thank you to InsideOUT and all of the participants for allowing us to record and share this event.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Dog. Yes. OK, [00:00:30] OK. [00:01:00] Um, so, yeah, Thank you. Everyone for coming. Um, we're relatively new at this. So, um, just bear with us. Um, yeah. So, uh, the panel that we're having today is just, um, in regards to the elders in our community. And, um, some of the experiences that they've had with, um, law reform, um, and paving the way [00:01:30] for the rights that we have today. So, yeah, we just kind of want to hear from them. Yeah. Their views on how they feel, the kind of landscape culturally has changed over time. Um, for everyone in the rainbow community. And, um, yeah, just to speak to certain issues that they may face, um, being rainbow elders specifically. And if there's any campaigns that they were involved in Just a bit more detail about that, because we see history is really important for us to um, yeah, remember [00:02:00] now, Um, So we're just gonna be doing intro introductions, uh, name pronouns and what you do. Um, So my name is Maggie. I use Say them pronouns. Um, I'm a phone counsellor with youth line. I'm also a youth worker with inside out. Um, and, um soon to be a, um a youth worker with schools out. [00:02:30] Cool. Um, my name is Rosie. I share her pronouns. Um, I Yeah, do some volunteering with inside out, such as this event. And, um yeah, do work. Um, in the healthcare sector. Um, my name is Georgina Buyer Ms Georgina buyer. That's all you need to know. Um, former politician, former sex worker, [00:03:00] Um, and a community worker. And a whole range of things which I won't go into now because there are more interesting people than I on the panel. Uh, my name is Colin. Um, you can call me Colin. Um, I'm OK with he is as well. Um, my background is in education. I spent many years in education now sort of semi retired by doing a lot of work, particularly amongst the faith communities [00:03:30] and the LGBT community, and trying to just do a lot of the reconciliation of bridging. You know that because of the divides that have taken place. So that's my privilege. Um, Kay Jones. I'm a facilitator of many online groups, Um, like Wellington Bisexual women's group, Wellington Interfaith Community, Wellington Unitarians Group. I help run hackathons in the tech [00:04:00] sector I'm a member of more groups than I can name in the time we have available. And I'm also, um, fifth generation New Zealander, third generation Wellington. And my grandmother used to babysit Don Brash father. Sorry, Pacific. I'm Prue Hyman. Um, I describe myself as a lesbian feminist economist, amongst other things. Alternative economist. [00:04:30] Um, but I'm now in inverted commerce and, uh, within lesbian communities I've done, um, I've done, um, a variety of things. My current main activity is, uh, lesbian radio, uh, which is on access on Sunday mornings. And, um, is, uh, try it got broader and appeals to the whole queer community. Um, my name. Bruce Mitchell. [00:05:00] Thank you so much for organising the event this afternoon. Um, then they as pronouns and I wear a number of hats, but the two main ones is I'm a counsellor psychotherapist. With that, I work part time, and I'm the executive director and co-chair of it. 10 and six. Trust A in New Zealand, and it's wonderful being here this afternoon, everyone. [00:05:30] I'm Amanda La Hare. Uh, my occupation. Basically primarily as a gender illusionist. So I create the illusion of gender and an entertainment forum and, like, I'm I'm really I don't know whether Elder is the right word for me, but I'm grateful to have this opportunity to be part of this project. Thank you. And I forgot to add she or they, um, I [00:06:00] thank you. Um, so our first question, um, just to open it up. Um, is could you speak about your coming out experience specifically how you identified when you came out or whether there's been sort of changes in that over time and how you feel that was influenced by your surroundings? I came out, I suppose, at the Georgina speaking, Um um, out at the age of 16. It was around [00:06:30] 1975. Um uh, when I did come out and assume and must begin my transition, it was very definite. I knew exactly what I wanted. Once I had learned and discovered that I could be, uh, because back in those days, you were, um uh, homosexual. You were lesbian. Um, and you had drag queens, but there was no sort of transgender distinctions or anything like that in those times. Uh, before I was more educated [00:07:00] and understood. Um, I thought I might be homosexual. uh, the manifestations of my transsexual, which is the which is AAA similar story for many, if not all of us, Um, is that it manifested itself before the age of five. the displays of it still remained with me until I was 789. Uh, the social and parental disapproval, um, was immense. And, um, and very [00:07:30] overpowering. So one tended to hide it until I rested myself away from the establishment, including family, in order to go out and discover that I was able to achieve I always wanted to achieve and nothing. And no one ever since then has ever been able to change that. I have been utterly certain in who I am. In fact, I was liberated the day I burned everything that was male about me, me, me up. But Scottie and Mel will tell you that story because he was there. [00:08:00] My contact with the rainbow community, um, seriously began in Wellington in about 1976 when I met people like Mal Vaughn and flattered with, um we were flattered together, and they, uh, guided me into, uh, what was to be my transitional period, I think, And thank God for that, um, Carmen's coffee lounge. There were safe places where you could be, but we were still ultra marginal. Absolutely. Even within our own rainbow community. Gay men didn't want to be seen out with drag queens on [00:08:30] the street because I might spring them. This is the sort of culture that we tended to exist and not be sprung amongst ourselves. We could be cool, but not outwardly in public. I'll finish there as my coming out experience and pass on to others. Thank you. Um, so I was a product of the mid fifties, which meant that by the time we got to the end of the sixties, I was discovering an attraction to boys, Um, didn't understand it. I was brought up in a conservative [00:09:00] evangelical church. My parents were ministers, and we'll talk a bit about that in a moment. Um, however, when I was about 16, as a result of them retiring, moving away, I was sent to board with another family, and, uh, the dynamics changed. And I discovered the gay subculture that existed in Christchurch in the early seventies. I discovered, um, that Well, I didn't think there were any other people like me. I found there [00:09:30] were a lot of married men who actually wanted to know people like me. Uh, and I discovered a lot of interesting people, but of course you didn't talk about it. And you know, you you always try to be the best little boy you could, you know, getting the best grades you could at school and being focused on that when I was about 20. I remember one time, and now you'll understand that, you know, bars and clubs didn't really exist that far. And the place gay men would meet was be out doing the beat. In other words, you cruising [00:10:00] in public toilets. And I do recall the police on one occasion discovering me there and wonder and making a very clean, uh, statement that you know what we do with boys like you. We lock you up. It sent me into trying to lock down. And I wanted to sort of, you know, I don't want to be like this anymore, But the church couldn't help. My church were totally inept. I drifted on and sort of keep being that dual personality. I had 22 person until [00:10:30] 1986 now I'd started coming out slowly to family. It was an ongoing process. But in 1985 law reform, my church, the Salvation Army, of which I was a member and proud to be you may remember, made a statement. They were going to visit every house with a petition and we had some horrendous stuff that happened. And I could no longer remain silent. And as a member [00:11:00] of the Salvation Army, I knew what it would mean. I spoke out and I kept on speaking out. And the more I spoke out, others joined me. Just one thing Before I move on what happened in 1985? A lot of people didn't believe they knew gay men or gay or gay people or any people. They we were invisible. You didn't, you know? But actually they were our workmates. They were our colleagues. They were people into school with. And in 1985 suddenly people were saying, I [00:11:30] will not be quiet anymore. I am going to come out and you discovered that you had gay workmates. You had gay friends and you could see a lot of people struggling with that. Kara. Thank you. for that? Um, a lot of what your has said I can relate to, because I think at one stage, we even went to the same high school. Yeah, that. [00:12:00] So there was that thing of I'd been saying to people since primary school even, um, I like boys. I like girls, so I didn't have a name for it. By the time I was 15, I was contacting lesbian line and finding out what sort of is there and went along to a coffee meeting and met some wonderful women. But they weren't exactly the same as me. And there was also the thing. I didn't really relate to a lot of feminism [00:12:30] and stuff identified as a woman because I didn't feel that was me. I didn't think I was a man, but again, big sort of gaps Where there weren't the names, the labels, the, uh, information. My name is Kay, and I'm a book addict. So I started reading and going online. I remember reading homosexuality by Dennis Altman when I was, um 16 and sort of contacting sort of other people. But in terms of the anything more than saying, I like these people. [00:13:00] Yes, I started telling friends at high school by the time I was 15 or 16 that this is who I'm attracted to, or or like, um, and doing my own thing, going off to book, um, shops and looking at playboys and in second hand bookshops and thinking, Yeah, they look pretty cool. Um, and signing a petition and handing over some money to support homosexual law reform. Asking my cousin, are you gay? And he said no. But yeah, was, um, he left New Zealand [00:13:30] to go to Australia. This is before homosexual law reform because he couldn't feel safe living in New Zealand in case he got picked up or family got to find out. Um, and by the time I was at university, I was joining any of the groups that I could. So when it comes to what names I might have called for myself or the processes, I can now be fully. I had a job interview last week and they asked in the, um is there anything else you want to tell me? Oh, I've been [00:14:00] a co facilitator of the Wellington Bisexual Women's Group for, um, over 25 years. Yeah, and that's now, OK to say in an interview. But it certainly wasn't when I started at work, so But it is that also that thing over the years, it's like you tell something to a person I'm by. Oh, no, that doesn't exist. You're really this or or that, um, And so it's ongoing. Over and over. Yes, I still am. Yeah. 30 plus 40 years later. Yeah, Still here. [00:14:30] Um, I was born in 1943 and I'm 74. So one of the older ones here, I don't like the term elder just getting older. We all are. Um and I was born in London. Um, and I did say to people like through the inside out people, maybe I shouldn't be on this panel because I was wasn't brought up here. I was 25 when I arrived in New Zealand, but they insisted, so that's all right. [00:15:00] Um, I wasn't aware, uh, of, um, being any different from anyone else. Um, when I was young, though, looking back, I can I can see signs. Um, I'm not heavily into the whether we're born or made or choose or anything else. I think it's different for different people, which I think is absolutely fine. And I completely accept that a lot of, um, lesbians, gay men, trans all sorts of people think they were are sure they were born that way. [00:15:30] And that's fine. I'm sure they were if they think that way. But I don't know whether I was born a lesbian. I have no idea. And I don't care. I choose to be a lesbian. I live as a lesbian and have done for very many years. And, uh, I was 23 before I had that realisation, which came with a bump, uh, with another woman who was a New Zealander, which is how I ended up back here. Uh, and we're still good friends. Um, and, uh, [00:16:00] in coming out in in London, I guess I. I was, uh, What would have been called in those days? A sports dyke? Uh, cricket Dyke. As a cricketer, cricket has always been heavily lesbian and probably still is, although it's not as overt, I think, as it used to be, as it's got more professional and so on it probably it always hit it. To some extent, it probably hides it more. Um, there's plenty of other sports that, I mean, attract lesbians as well. Um, and they're all [00:16:30] over the place. That's that's great. Um, so I didn't, uh and I probably wasn't anything like as out as I thought I was. I mean, I adapted quite quickly and was very happy about, uh, being involved with a woman. I didn't get involved in England in a very heavily lesbian scene, apart from my, uh, my friend, who was more experienced than me and my partner at the time saying that one is and that one is and that one might be. And I gradually got my [00:17:00] dark spotting, uh, mechanism more developed myself. But you can be terribly wrong because we are everywhere. We look like everything. And so so does the whole of queer community. And, uh, I think that's great. And it it doesn't matter that much. But there was certainly some safety, particularly We're talking about the mid 6 19 sixties, which is, well, pre stone wall or any anything else public, and it certainly [00:17:30] was not easy. The gateways club some of you may have heard of existed in London, and I did go there a couple of times But we weren't. We weren't in the predominantly lesbian scene. I wasn't out at work. It didn't occur to me whether I didn't even think about whether I was out or not. I was in a relationship, and that was fine. Um, that started to change, particularly came to New Zealand to say in 1969 it's still pretty, very much community activity. Of course, there's loads [00:18:00] of lesbians and gay men around. I'm sure there were also loads of bisexuals and trans and intersex, but they weren't even those terms. And th and thinking that way wasn't very heavily part of it in those days, it was lesbians and gay, mainly as far as community was concerned, uh, to the extent there was community and there was I mean, there were, of course, groups of people. There was mostly too much drinking and bar scenes in those days because there was nowhere or much else to meet, except perhaps in their own homes. [00:18:30] Um, cricket here was as lesbian as in England and cricket, and, uh, we used to go to the pub after after games and sometimes the um, people's homes and so on and and That was the sort of scene in those days, Um, I gradually, as the seventies came on, and, uh, um, second wave feminism and lesbian and gay activity. Both, um, got going [00:19:00] in a much more organised fashion and got more confident and could start developing community. Um, I, uh, was still a sports like, but I was also becoming a lesbian feminist. I was a lefty. I was teaching economics at Vic, and I was pretty. I stood out like a sore thumb there. As I was, I was out to, uh, staff and often to students. There was times when I came out to every class, um, [00:19:30] I got I didn't always do it, but But I often did, and, um and but the process of coming out goes on forever. It's as I'm sure you all know, I mean it. Uh, I had came to New Zealand partly to run away from my mother, who was not at all happy about the fact she wasn't gonna have Jewish grandchildren from me. And in those days, lesbians didn't. Just towards the end of my childbearing years, they might have just started having choosing [00:20:00] to have kids, but it was just a bit late for me. Um, so, uh, I gradually became more and more, um, out. But you go on. I mean, in doing the homosexual law reform bill. And months later in the mid eighties, um, a group of us got special all over the middle pages of the Dominion Post. And, uh, that was, you know, more out to more people than before. And then you start discussing with your squash club people that [00:20:30] you might not have talked too much about it before, and so on. So it's an ongoing process. Thanks, Prue. Um, yes. Coming up for me has been AAA process and a journey, mostly because the reality that I have as an intersex non-binary person, the the images, the languages, the words weren't there at all when I was growing up when I was a teenager, So I grew up in the centre of the North Island. [00:21:00] It was conservative, intensely homophobic. I recently met, um, someone that I went to high school with, and we were talking about that. So there was a group of us who were high school friends, and we used to call ourselves the freaks. Um, simply because we saw ourselves as being different. But certainly we didn't talk about being queer. Um, though it turned out that 90% of that group probably [00:21:30] were So my first coming out was as a queer, identified person, and it was important to me, I I was living in Whanganui at the time, and the group was primarily gay men. Um and then my journey has just continued since then A bit like you, So I didn't come out as an intersex person until 22 years ago, and I came out on Paul Holmes television, [00:22:00] so it was like I had had media training. If you're going to do this, you do it sort of once and quite loud. So that was reasonably effective. And then, you know, I, I want to back to the youth in this room because the non binary language has come from you and that has been profoundly impactful on on my life and journey and watching the development of our community in terms of deepening [00:22:30] who we are has been a magical part of the last 10 years. Good. Hi, everyone. This is really interesting. Like you hear a lot of and that's shared with you and and for me, Um, we've just lost a very important person more, especially in my life, down in and for for her whole journey her last bye bye. Georgina was there to witness it. Um, I learned so much and so much, [00:23:00] um, history. And now, listening to this, I'm learning even more history. So I'm just wondering what's going on with me at the moment. Why I'm getting all of this in terms of, um my coming out story. I don't have one. I never came out. I was never in. You know, people say I came out, girl, I never was in. I grew up in a family. My father is French and my mother is Maori. So we grew up speaking French and Maori. In our family. I have nine sisters [00:23:30] and seven brothers, and we grew up in which is the roughest town in the centre of the North Island. I was always loved and, you know, I would wear my sister's dresses and my mom would say now that shade is not good for you, dear. You know, And then I'd wear my dad's gum boots and I'd put a tea towel on my head because I like the way girls had long hair. So I'd try and get AAA white tail so that it looked blonde and I'd walk [00:24:00] down the back of the farm and I was the child that was sensitive. And when someone hurt, I cried. I was the child that had a natural instinct to sense when there was something, um, happening. So my grandmother took me as a as a very young child away from my brothers and sisters. So I thought that that my sisters are much older. [00:24:30] When my sister would come and visit Nanny, I thought she was nanny's friend. My sisters are very fair. If you look at this girl here with the blonde hair, that is what my sisters look like. Our boys come up very dark with very light coloured eyes and black hair, and our girls will come out white and blonde. So when this white lady would come to nanny's house, I thought she was a friend of nanny's from church. I had no idea that that was actually my sister, and I didn't realise I had nephews and nieces that were older than me [00:25:00] because they were born before me. In fact, the year I was born, my mother's three daughters were pregnant at the same time, so we were all born six weeks apart. So when my sisters went back to work, my mother took the Children. So these four people, I thought, were my brothers and sisters and the other people the ladies, because Mum couldn't handle the Children. These white ladies used to come and pick up my brothers and sisters and take them home. I had no idea that was actually my sister's [00:25:30] picking up my nephews and nieces, so I grew up in a very loving, sheltered, nurturing environment. Um, my mother was very, um, earthy. You know, we had because we had so many Children. We lived on a farm. If you were given the job of tomatoes and there were no tomatoes for the family, you were taken behind the chicken patch and bashed. Or if your chicken died because you didn't look after it, you got bashed not by your parents by your brothers [00:26:00] and sisters. So I learned very much that it was a community. Everything that you did was nothing was your own. Your dresses your shoes. I don't think I had my first pair of shoes till I was 14 because we could just couldn't afford it. And I remember one story when I was in high school. Um, I couldn't fit any of my brother's jumpers, you know, the high school jumpers, the uniform and we couldn't afford to buy one. So Mum took me to a hooker hooker shop, which is an opportunity shop, and I thought it was something like Harrod's because I'd never seen [00:26:30] so many clothes on hangers before and I had $2 and that to me was like $2000. And I was a 13 year old child and I picked this jumper and I was so proud. And I wore it to school on my first day and John Jansen saw the jumper and he goes, Hey, you've got my jumper on. You better fuck up. My mother took me to Harrod's to buy this jumper, and it cost $2. Thank you, he said. No, that's my jumper. My mum knitted it. No, she didn't. You're a liar. [00:27:00] And he said, No, look at the tag tag and I lifted up the tag and it had John Jensen's name sewn in it, and I realised then we were different. I was different. Not only was I di II, I always had acceptance for my family, but going into a a school. Then people are saying, Why do you walk that way? I'm I'm walking. Why do you talk that way? I had no idea, but because I had all this and all this nurture from [00:27:30] my family, those people. I don't care about you people because you're not part of my life. My people were my family and my brothers and my sisters and my history, my people. My. That's what I held fast to So hearing these coming out stories I don't remember ever being in. I don't remember ever being frightened. I understood that I was different and I accepted that, and I never made excuses. I never tried to fit in, You know, you either [00:28:00] like a person or you don't, and that's your That's your privilege. I'm who I am and I present who I choose to when I choose, and when people say, How do you identify yourself? I identify myself as a living being that breathes and loves and cares. However you want to pocket me is up to you. So for me, I like man said, I congratulate our youth because you know, I'm learning so [00:28:30] much like our elders, our grown people. Um I'm learning so much from the from the Children, and it makes gives me hope. And I have grandchildren. I have three grandchildren. Um, and I look at them and I. I teach them that no one can pocket you anywhere. No one. They call me grandma. But I said to them, No one pockets you. Only you can do that to you. And no one can love you as much as you can. Love you. [00:29:00] So in terms of my coming out story, I was never out. I was always in. Thank you. No. So the next question is, would you consider yourself I would describe myself as very, very young. Thank you so very much. When I read your on your email, how would you feel about being an elder? How No. How No. Jesus Lord, you know, as long as Thailand [00:29:30] exists and they have surgery for your eyes and they can take away half your stomach, honey, I will always be young and it makes and you know what? What is age really I? I think at my age that I might know more than this young lady here because she's young. That in our world is not true. This young lady might have read the interweb. Uh, thank you so much. You're so clever. Um, you know, young [00:30:00] people have access to the Internet. I'm only just learning it. So my my history my, my, is mine. And I have no way to judge or gauge how intellectual she is or what her experience is. And we may be different in age, but we may have the exact same knowledge base purely because of our age. When you get to a certain age, you have to squint a little bit. Not that I do it. Mind you, you have to squint a little bit to read [00:30:30] and I. I digest so much information from listening to younger people because I'm learning so much about our history, who we are and where we can go, you know, And where the youth are leading us. And I think it's exciting. So in terms of, um being called an elder no No, thank you. And a sort of tour that I'm an older person in the community, [00:31:00] and we operate in most of our groups on a basis of delegated leadership. So what we're talking about as elders, I think, as leaders. So, um, I see leaders in this room around me. I mean, Tabby's won a young leaders award. I mean, you know, great sort of there, but and then that's not to say, you know, she's not in case he's not, and and Jim's not and you know, because we are. We have got lots of leaders in the room, but also, we team tag a lot when we need somebody [00:31:30] to help us with something like Craig was leading a process and had great support. But everybody, in a way, is a leader. And so whether you're older or younger and we're learning from each other all the time, so yeah, I'm old. I'm counting down to retirement, getting that, um, unconditional sort of, you know, benefit income from the the the government. Sure, but, um yeah, not elder. Yeah, I guess, uh, for me, [00:32:00] it's something that's more been bestowed rather than self identified. Um, I would have been probably in my late forties when I started not noticing a phenomenon, particularly through some of my connections through faith communities, where I was able to have conversations with with, uh, younger folk who were coming in and asking questions. As a result of that, I got very involved in an international organisation, which was the Gay Christian Network. And, um, as I started [00:32:30] travelling a lot to that, I found a lot of the younger a lot of the young folk and we, you know, 18 through to 30 would be gravitating. And it was a bit like, you know, sitting around your story, tell us your story, and I used to find it intriguing because they had bestowed that, um, responsibility and role on me. But not only that, there was a great deal of respect that came with that. So to honour the respect, I [00:33:00] was happy to say Yes, I'll embrace that which has been given. But not only do I see myself an elder in that responsive in that in that respect, I've mentioned that I have my background of Salvation Army. What I've also found is that within the church who were very homophobic who were very close to being responsive to what our stories were about, are now also starting to say, Tell us more of your story, help us understand, help [00:33:30] us learn. And I again take that role. And if I'm given that opportunity and send as an elder to do that, then so be it. Because if, as I uh, dialogue with folk and as I share and as we listen and as we you know, we go through the pains and the joys if in the process they can look and say because of this conversation because of this person, I am grateful that I'm no longer [00:34:00] needing to be afraid. I'm grateful that I no longer need to be worried about who I am. And that is happening not only in the LGBT community. It's happening in our supportive community and our advocates. It's happening in our schools. It's happening in our churches. So for me you can call me what you like. But I will be If you want to say, you know Papa, Daddy or whatever it is, Um, yeah, so be it. Who would like it next? Well, [00:34:30] as I said, I don't like the term elder. I don't know what it connotates, but it doesn't connotate anything positive to me. Um, I don't mind the fact that I'm distinctly older than I used to be. And people want to call me an old lesbian. That's OK. Um, I, uh but in terms of, um, the difference it makes by being older, uh, it's not as huge as all that if you're lucky enough to have good health. And I mean, health is a crucial [00:35:00] thing both for older people and for others. I mean, there are people who have, uh, disabling conditions or who, uh, have really serious illnesses very young. And, um, often it's It's that that that is distinguishing if you're lucky enough to be reasonably in reasonable health, which I am lucky enough to be, Um then things aren't too bad. You can go on doing things, but you have a bit less energy. Um, I've noticed that, um, my age group, uh, tend to have lunch [00:35:30] parties or early evening parties. We don't have parties that start at eight o'clock and go up till midnight. I don't come to your or your dances that in the that start at nine or 10 at night. That just doesn't work for me anymore. And those sorts of things change as you get older. Uh, do not for everybody. Some people may have the energy to go on being up at four. In the morning when they're 90. But I don't, Um, so there are There are things that that [00:36:00] do change. Um, but, uh, I think, um, you're as old as you feel as far as, um, What you know as being if you're thinking of elder more in terms of being respected for having knowledge as people have talked about, Well, um, I have some things about which I know a lot, and if I get asked to talk about them and so on to to different groups, then that's absolutely fine. But, um, um, I tend personally to have the regret that I don't have as much as I would like to to do with really [00:36:30] much younger age groups. You tend to have your main friendship networks amongst people you've known a while who are a lot of them is your own age. Or maybe within 10 or 15 years at least I don't have much to do with people in their tens and twenties, Um, and and thirties, uh, because I didn't have Children. And a lot of my lesbian friends do have Children, and I like to have as much contact as I can with the next generation and the one after, Um, but, uh, you have to make an effort [00:37:00] to do so if you haven't had your own offspring. And that's one important thing. And it's really nice to have things to do with with groups such as this at a very mixed age, Um, I happily accept the term Rainbow Elder. Um, I take it as a mark of an endearment and as a mark of respect for however many years 1 may have spent longer than you and experiencing. I believe we have wisdom to, um, [00:37:30] to impart from our experience. And I would expect that most of us on this panel, if not all of us, are very open to your questioning, which I think is more important than asking, um, a few sort of, uh, set up questions to go on with. That's gonna be the interesting part of this forum. Um, I'll accept the Rainbow Elder thing as long as it has no connotation towards the church of the Latter day Saints or any other religious outfit that has elders in their congregation. [00:38:00] I'm also comfortable with the term elder. Um, I've spent a lot of time in Maori community so and understand that and the responsibilities that go with the title and and the intersex community as I look around, um, there are not very many people around the world who are activists at the front line. Um, and it's a hard place [00:38:30] to be, So we have terrible burnout. And the other thing is, I look around each year, we seem to lose disproportionately more people than the base population. So, um, there's not a lot of us that are making old bones. And so that's another thing to think about as well. But it's a privilege to be here and again. Thank you for the invitation. Um, yeah, I guess. Just, um, with this next question. [00:39:00] Um, yeah, it's just we just kind of want you to maybe, um, talk more about a specific campaign that you've been involved in, Um, and how you feel that campaign sort of changed the landscape. Um, culturally for rainbow people, whether it be homosexual law reform or anything of that kind of elk that you want to talk about. Yeah. Question six. Yeah, sure. Sorry. Cool. [00:39:30] My involvement with homosexual law reform was relatively superficial. I was in my twenties. I was living in Auckland. Um, I moved up there from Wellington in 1984 and I was working at Alfie's nightclub, a gay nightclub, Very well known nightclub in Auckland at that time in a drag show. Um, but the owners of our club owned a magazine called Out magazine, which was one I think I may be corrected of about only two. At the time that had a national [00:40:00] coverage. There was Pink triangle, and there was out magazine. So that was one of the few journalistic avenues by which we could get the message of, uh, a protest et cetera and support, obviously for homosexual law reform as it was coming along. So that was sort of an important element. In 1985 I got to make a short film called Jules Dahl with a gay filmmaker called Peter Wells. It was about a story on the day of the life of a transsexual and a transvestite [00:40:30] and, um, very simple. No sex, no, nothing controversial. But it did get banned from going on television when the series we were part of was about to screen. Uh, because the censor of the day decided that the subject matter of Jules Dahl was contrary to the public's good taste. We got a new director of television, I think came and then Julian Mounter, and he sort of dismissed that ruling on that so they could get this whole series of about face on to screen. It would have been one of the first films regarding [00:41:00] our particular transgender issues told in a dramatic story, Yes, but a more realistic reflection of our lives, um, through this particular couple and, um, then being the caricature or the Danny LA or the tiny Tina, uh, sort of mocking of transgender in a way. And I don't want to disparage the entertainment value of some of some of that that went down. But Jules Dale was a little bit pioneering [00:41:30] for our stories to be told. Um, he helpfully, in fact, I was in Auckland last week and Lexie Matheson looked at me and cited the fact that she saw Jules Dahl in 1986 or whenever it aired on TV. It was a profound life changing experience for her to be who she is today. So that was a huge compliment. And and an example, Uh, at the end of that film. And during that film, um, we were right in the venal argument [00:42:00] of homosexual law reform. And while we were shooting a scene one night in Queen Street, Wellington, it was a sun, uh, Auckland. Rather, Um, it was a, um, Sunday night, and every Sunday night, the Salvation Army, um, marched down Queen Street to have a prayer meeting in Victoria Street off Queen Street. And as an absolute, um, Improvisation, if I could put it that way, um, Peter, the director would finish filming what we had to suddenly said, Look, we're just going [00:42:30] to get this. We don't know if it'll be film worthy or whatever, uh, to be in the final cut. But would you and my co star, um, Richard Hanna, who was playing the role of Mandy I was Jewel, um, we were asked to just as the Salvation Army came down with the tambourines going and the trumpets and the singing and all of that coming down Queen Street Would we just run out in front of them and sort of mockingly march in front of them? Uh, which we happily didn't thought. It was a bit of fun and all of that. [00:43:00] And then they wheeled around into Victoria Street to, uh, um establish themselves for their prayer meeting. And Peter said, Look, could you just do one more thing and go and rush up and stand beside them? Uh, sort of again in a slightly mockingly way, uh, which we did. We got it all on film, and it did end up in the film. And, um and that was sort of, uh, you know, on cellu Lloyd to recall that this contribution that the film crew of Jules Dale could make to, you know, pro homosexual [00:43:30] law reform we will do. And to also, um, take a swipe at the Salvation Army, who, as has been mentioned, was venal against the whole thing. Um, you know, at the time. And so, um, the final line that I had, uh, uh, in the final shot of the film and we were just again told to improvise this conversation because we were walking away from the camera. Um, Richard and I and I just dreamed up this line out of the top of my head, chatting away to Mandy. Character going. Do [00:44:00] you remember this guy called Norm Jones? Well, I ran into him one night down on Vivian Street. And and Norm Jones, for those of you who may not be aware, was a national party MP who to me coined the most the most venal, um, public display of outrage at the gay community by announcing on stage at the Auckland Town Hall to a huge pro gay rally that was happening in there that night. Get back to the gutters from where you came. And that was the [00:44:30] kind of attitude. And who won? I'm so glad Georgina, uh mentioned that story because I certainly remember the movie. I remember that scene, and I also was very much aware of the cognitive dissonance that came, particularly with where the Salvation Army stood. You see, a lot of my friends in the Salvation Army did not [00:45:00] necessarily want to align themselves with any form of negative thinking, but we had three people at the top who took it upon themselves to make a national statement. Now I had to drive. I'd been overseas, came back to Wellington, and it would have been about 1982. And I had I. I sort of had two persona, you know, go to church on Sunday. Go to the victor. Um, some of you may remember we used to have a club around the, um, Oriental Bay called. Do you remember the Victoria [00:45:30] Club? Some of you may Well, well, the Victoria Club was a place where you could meet and you couldn't get a licence to have a gay club. So what they did they They purchased a restaurant, which was a level below, and it had, um it had an attached bar upstairs, and the all drinks would be served to the paying customers in the restaurant, which left the upstairs bar, which was covered by the restaurant for people to be able to meet and enjoy. [00:46:00] And I got, uh, met people from the Victoria Club, and they were affable people. I like their company. Um and so this was a way we worked around being able to get a licence to run a gay club. And so I had this dual persona. Um, I do remember writing to every MP. And, you know, those were the days where you just about had to go through and photocopy. There was no, um, writing and telling them this was this was wrong. Um, I made some interesting connections. Some of you [00:46:30] may remember the name, uh, Phil Parkinson. Now, I remember on one particular Friday morning, it was in March 1985. Phil rang me at work and he said, Colin, I need to ask you a question. There is a rumour that is going around that the Salvation Army is just about to put out a statement that they're going to do this. And I thought to myself, they're not that stupid. They wouldn't do it, you know, they're not. You know, we we are more mature than that. They wouldn't do it. So I rang the head of, [00:47:00] um, our our human relations, the chap with the name of Rodney Knight now and told them Look, there's a rumour you need to know this so that you know, when it comes out, you you're already really prepared to be able to uh, dispel it. And I received a very cold. Um, it was just as if to say, I've pushed some buttons here. So I said to Rodney, Tell me, is this true? And the response was the [00:47:30] Salvation Army is doing what the Salvation Army has to do. And I said, You know what? You have just made the biggest stuff up in life. This will come back and haunt us for years and years to come. That was 1985. I had no idea how prophetic that would be. But what was interesting was, as and as history has now proven, is that yeah, there were only two or three people at the top and they banded together and had a bit of power. [00:48:00] They didn't talk to London. The advice that came from the International Salvation Army in London was we wouldn't have done that. That's not how that's not the image we want. So you know, it's something that has taken has taken time. What I did do, though. And, you know, we're talking a bit about the communities. What I found I have done. I had two options. Basically turn around and say, Look, stuff you church stuff, you faith stuff, All this stuff, you know, you're not nice to know. And I sort of sense, you know, if change is gonna come, change is [00:48:30] gonna come from a growth of people inside who, you know, if we share our stories as we as we let people see the real us and, uh, it was hard, but I chose that path rather than the other. And I look back over the last 30 years, and I'm grateful because I still hold on to a very strong faith. I hold on to a faith that has actually allowed me to share stories. I'm involved very much in online ministries. Now, I do a lot of we, um, started [00:49:00] a small group of people online. So salvation is for a more inclusive church. We now have over, uh, about 2200 people in our community, and they're sharing sources and stories, and it spread internationally the same with the, um, Christian Fellowship Group, which I just started for me as a group, you know, to be a part of and to actually watch it grow. And what watch stories? One of the Yeah. Yeah, Before you hand on Just a brief thing. Um, I wanted [00:49:30] to say homosexual law reform was fought under a climate when HIV and AIDS had just hit the world. And that was a hugely and potentially damaging thing to have happened at that time. You have no idea what it was like to be gay or anything at that time when HIV came out. And all the misrepresentation, the misunderstanding, the not actually knowing exactly what IV and AIDS was about at that time worldwide. And so for Fran to lead [00:50:00] homosexual law reform under that climate was very difficult. It was very easy for the naysayers to supporting homosexual law reform, Um, to now be confronted with this at that time and completely discredited what was termed a gay disease. I was just wondering if you could talk a little bit more about your involvement and like where the kind of trans community was during, um, the time of homosexual law reform. Well, the trans community [00:50:30] in a more sort of distinct term of male to female or female to male, uh, were present at that time. We weren't necessarily hugely high profile activists, but we attended the protests we were there to support, I think in that way. And, um, we have to remember that the gay community itself was coming to terms with the new coalescing that was mentioned before between each other lesbians, gay men or whatever than [00:51:00] we had been before. The trans community, I have to say, were scary to some, even within our own rainbow community was very easy for a trans. Let's say Carmen, to be out or whatever like that, and you could spring someone who was gay who was not wanting to be quite that out. Those kinds of situations would occur. Um, I use the term. It's a bit traumatic, but we were a scum of the Earth in many ways, the trans community. And yet we couldn't hide ourselves because we dressed and [00:51:30] behaved as we felt and it was blatantly obvious, and that would engender some very negative stuff towards us. Uh, but we were there. We were supportive because of the principle that we put aside. Our particular difference is we have a common goal in mind that we we must aim for, and it's going to be a stepping stone towards the human rights amendments in 93 etcetera. Two civil unions to marriage. Equality. It's a marathon. It's not a a sprint, [00:52:00] that's for sure. Thank you. Question. Oh, cool. Thanks. Um, who would you consider to be your elders? Um, I really like hearing, um that you feel it's something that's bestowed upon you. So I'm interested to know who you would bestow that on, um, from your own time. Especially talking about how visibility and the ability to make records is something that's quite recent. Things [00:52:30] like magazines, radio, film, Internet and so on is something that's grown throughout your lifetime. But what about people that you knew when you were in your twenties or in your teens who were, um born and died before being able to have even half the openness that we have because we don't have their records? But you do because you remember them? Um, that's not a specific question, but I'm really interested to know just from anyone. If you have a well, I know absolutely who I want to talk [00:53:00] about. Please do. I am as a youngster, I didn't know what transgender was until I saw Reina Buyer um and I saw the integrity the decency that she represented her honesty to me was incredible. And I. I remember distinctly having conversations with my grandmother, Um, the fact that she was Maori and that she wasn't afraid to talk about her Maori [00:53:30] to she wasn't afraid to to be who she was. So, for me, not only did Regina, I look upon her as an elder, but I also look upon her as, uh, uh, a leader in terms of our commit a community. She was never afraid to speak her truth and to challenge people and their beliefs. And I think as a young person, that's what we all need, someone who's going to challenge the general populace, [00:54:00] not not in an offensive way, because she was never offensive. She was honest, not in a confronting way. She was honest. And I think when you're looking at a leader as, um, someone that's going to guide you, you need somebody that has a sense of honesty and integrity, to their Selves, to themselves, but also an appreciation of their truth and where they sit in their community and to me. Georgina Baer has always had that [00:54:30] she's always had that simplicity and that elegance that, um, I aspire to hence wearing her hair do today. Thank you, Kara. Um I. I want to mention a few people, not just because of who they were as individuals and still are, but because of what they did. So Pink Triangle was the other magazine that came out and I was on the collective for woman and nine men. Um, and so Stephen Danby, who was the at the time [00:55:00] always trying to get the stories and trying to sort of get things. And so it was putting the the word out there, the women who ran lesbian line and through whom I sort of had had contact. And I don't always know their names because that wasn't how it was set up. Um, Tim Barnett, who did a lot of behind the scene, work for for legal representations, and he's still part of New Zealand. And he was an MP. And again, yes, he was out and gay and had been involved in the UK and setting up stonewall. But part of his thing was to bring other [00:55:30] people together into the space and in our local community. Um, Mal Vaughn and Scottie, who have run so many pubs and open spaces that and provided financial support and and charity to enable events to happen in our community. So there's those people who have supported things in an open way. They're there and, you know, I totally I them, I guess there was very few people I would identify. But I remember people like the Reverend Troy Perry [00:56:00] from the United States, who in 1970 set up the Metropolitan Community Church because they were not ministering to the, uh, you know, the spiritual needs of people and basically made made it known You are welcome at our church. We will love you. We will demonstrate what it means to be, and and I use the Christian terms here, you know, the follow of Christ and that church took off, And I, as a person right around the other part of [00:56:30] the world, was starting to listen and say, you know, you can actually have faith and to be, um, same sex When I came, um, during 1985 1 of the things that was a real struggle was that as a gay man, a lot of my gay friends did not want to know me because I was a member of the Salvation Army. But in the same way a lot of my Salvation Army friends didn't want to know me because I was a gay man and there was a very narrow road [00:57:00] that you could stare down. But there were people, and I look also, I think of some names and one name that just comes to mind. Um, I'm sure will remember. Do you remember Case Coo? Yes. Yes. Well, I mentioned Case case was someone, of course, I met through the Victoria Club. Um, we celebrated his life on Friday. Um, Judith Thus, another person I think of, I think of people like Owen Shanks, [00:57:30] who for many years lived, um, as a man, you know, with, um with HIV, but just was such a strong person and very much out, you know, just giving the message. You don't have to be frightened of us. You've got you know, we are. We are here. And what was also particularly noticeable was while we while we as a community and particularly gay men and, um, the LGBT community can be can be quite determined [00:58:00] in their views. And they can be. You know, um, the people that I have find I look up to are those who demonstrated Grace who allowed space for, You know, we may have different views, but we're in this together. Let us work towards a common goal. And while we're doing it, if we can find the common language, if we can find a way in which we can love each other and respect each other, then that's even a good thing. [00:58:30] Um, for the first time in our history, um, we have actually got a very visible, um, ageing, uh, queer population. Um, So my question is, is, uh what challenges have you faced in recent years? Um, as you've gotten older. And what can us younger ones do to support you? Um, given that so much of your lives was actually given up fighting for the freedoms we have today. So what can we [00:59:00] do? Well, I'll tell you one of the things and it breaks my heart. I've seen this time and time again. I saw this again in mid January where we farewelled Fergus Collinson. Now Fergus was a man. If you knew him, he was a very visible person. Great artist. But very if you met him in the street, you knew you weren't going to get away without a a hug. And you know something? Really? Quite. You know, but Fergus passed away in his apartment, and it [00:59:30] was four days before they found his body. Now, I had this real fear of getting old, and then people aren't even there to know that you've gone. Um, So what can we do? I guess Well, part of it is just building communities, looking after those who, you know, you know, your friends staying in touch. I'm trying to make an effort. Now, I've got a few older friends, and I've said to them, You know, give me a ring every you know, [01:00:00] you know, every couple of days just to you know, even if you've got nothing to say except hello. I miss you. I want to talk with you. Um, we also think about how how do we look at as we age? Um, going use being able to access, um, residential care? Um, I was talking to a couple yesterday at out in the park, and I hadn't seen them for some time. And I said where are you living? Because every time I knew them, they were selling the house they said we are now living in. Um, [01:00:30] now which Scott, Um, home in Baton. Is it Ron Scott or Tom Scott? That anyway, there's a residential home. Bob Scott. We're living in the Bob Scott home in and we love it. We've got our own apartment. We we can have our flowers and we're the first openly gay couple there, and people love us. So So I guess you know, there's still opportunity. Just a little one, as I've got older and [01:01:00] it'll happen to most of you, too. My hearing's got worse. So I live with tinnitus and the background noise becomes sort of, um, a bit intrusive. And it's sometimes hard to see people if they turn away. And I can't see the face while they're talking with me. It's also meant that I've become more aware of other people who are disabled or who have impairment and challenges to get to things. So my friends who are in wheelchairs wouldn't be able to get over the lip to get into this place necessarily. So when I'm running an event, [01:01:30] I try and think about accessibility issues to try and think. Are there people who I'd like to invite, who would really sort of add something? And can I make sure that the venue and everything about it is going to make it easy enough for them to get there? Is it the right time of day? What's the public transport like? You know, when I had my car accident last year and the car was written off, I was using public transport. And if I couldn't get to something in a place but caught by that way, I wouldn't go. And so it's that thing of like as, um, you know, hearing [01:02:00] people still want to be part of communities and have the options. But it may just be that little bit of wrap around thinking one in four people in New Zealand is living with a disability. Within 30 years, it's gonna be one in three, so that's just something. And it's not just older people, but there are younger people living with these issues. But, you know, trying to find, you know, thinking about how to include us would be good. In some ways, I don't think it's any different for us than it is for anybody else who's ageing. Um, there are ageing issues [01:02:30] for everyone, and some will have, um, support networks that are stronger than others. Some will have have Children and so on. Um, but you can't live through them either. You've, uh, some will have communities and and local, um, people. I think it is very important that that you do have a community. And I think as you if you lose, um, the ability to, uh, to walk to the shops and so on things become really [01:03:00] serious. And our health system is not particularly good at supporting. It's it's not bad, but it's not that good. Certainly the business of, uh if you need to go into a retirement village or then into residential care and so on. It's really important to, um, attack the homophobia to To there there is increasing, um, sensitivity. In some cases, we've got resources. We've developed resources ourselves, um, to, uh, make [01:03:30] sure that, um next of kin is use that that if you you have a partner, you can demonstrate your love for each other just the same as any heterosexual couple. Good. But you're gonna have encounter the old homophobic staff member anywhere. And, uh, all that needs needs tackling. But certainly, I mean, my age group start talking to each other a lot about these issues. I mean, I don't have a single blood relation in New Zealand. I don't have Children. I'm very my partner Dropped dead three years ago after we [01:04:00] did 20 years together. Um, it's something, uh, that I do have to think about these days. I'm because I'm healthy. But I do try and keep in contact with friends and so on. Um and, um, I think you know the business of having mixed age. Um, uh, contacts is important too, for everyone. I've I've been reading the other day about, um uh, rest home. Nothing to do with lesbian gay community. [01:04:30] But where, um, young people go in and make friends with some of the people living there. All those sorts of things, the things we can we can do, and and it's good both for the older people and for the younger people. Uh, pets are good. My dog's damn important to me, but you know, all these things are things we need to think about. lovely question. Lots and lots of issues. Um, a few years ago, I I did a video with, um Julie Watson [01:05:00] up in Auckland. He's part of the Silver Rainbow Project, and at at the moment, I can earn money, so I'm OK, but I'm part of the community that has no resource. So the idea of growing old and then being incapacitated terrifies me because our elder community is binary and there is no place at the moment for someone like me. So, yeah, there's a big piece of work to do there. It's a beautiful question. And thank [01:05:30] you for asking it in most recent years for me. Um, I I've had renal failure and sort of been hugely hit by that health issue for the last four or five years until I got my kidney transplant and the kidney I received from a gay man, I might add, and, um, happily, I'm proudly so it just happened like that. Hugely generous. How do you say thank you for something as amazing as that? So that [01:06:00] is a health challenge. And that was the first time I'd really been knocked by and I couldn't control. It just happened and we had to deal and how I've come out the other side dodged a bullet there, going along the lines of some of the words that have been said already, we have a future, Um, uh, before us where I think we are probably underserved. Certainly underfunded and resourced to actually take care of our of our very elderly who are now going into, uh, perhaps hospice situations. Um, uh, rest home situations [01:06:30] and that kind of thing to my knowledge. And I may stand to be corrected. There is no particularly dedicated facility. Um, that can treat us with the dignity. I'll give you the example of one of my icons if we were talking about that before and again. I'm sorry. I have to mention it. But, madam Carmen, um, when she died in Sydney. Sorry. I'm, um Well, she had [01:07:00] huge support from those who were close to her over there at the time. The hospital facility didn't didn't treat her with the dignity. She deserved that. We couldn't bring her back here to New Zealand, which really was her home. She lies lonely in a cemetery somewhere out of Sydney. And we can't go to her unless we happen to be there. It's those kinds of things that matter [01:07:30] is marking such a figure as her. Like that, she, um, provided safety. She provided friendliness. Her hugely high profile in this country broke down attitudinal barriers and, um, her girls who were for her, even Cal and herself when they got hauled up in front of court to things little law changes that occurred because of some of those appearances [01:08:00] with the small stepping that lead us to more equality, respect and recognition for our particular special place in our society. I think of international people like Christine Jorgenson, who had to suffer the ire as a one of the regarded as the first sexually reassigned transgender woman in the world back in the 19 fifties. Can you imagine the She was that day's [01:08:30] Caitlyn Jenner, if I can put it that way. Um, Jan Morris, a renowned internationally acclaimed author who, when she was still male, climbed Everest with Hillary to report on that people like this who who have done a April Ashley, a famous Vogue model, um, the visibility mentioned before, starts with people like that who step out from the crowd make themselves vulnerable to that out there [01:09:00] for the sake that we begin that we can have something as we grow on, uh, be proud of, I think for you, the younger generation today think of how we care for each other. We may dispute with each other often over particular things. But at the end of the day, collectively, we got to look after each other. Um, at the end of the day, it's vital And continue to remember, as the AIDS quilt shows us, um, to celebrate the shoulders, who we all stand [01:09:30] upon who made us able to get this far, and we've got further to go. Sorry about that. That was one of the things that hurt the most. I could not go to my beloveds funeral. Who would out both of us. Any other questions? Yeah, I had a bunch [01:10:00] of questions, but now I can barely hold it together. So thanks to um, no, it was so moving to hear you speak. I wanted to say because I grew up in the I kind of wanted to. This is more comment to you. Um, you Your name in my household was treated with such respect and with such love. And I think that you had such a profound impact on the community and how they responded to L GP T sort of issues. But I wanted to, um he you reflect a little bit on what it was like when you're going into politics [01:10:30] and you were sort of embracing your You've embraced your identity and like what thoughts you had about going into politics. Or do you have any major reservations? Or were you always just all in? Thank you for that question. Um, politics had never been on my radar ever. I Like I said, I may have participated in the odd protest, but didn't we all back in Vietnam War days and and and certainly for, uh, a law reform and any other [01:11:00] sort of human rights? I think my leftist leanings, um, manifested themselves before I even understood what left and right. And politics even meant it was just the way I I sort of went the first of all. I had never thought that I would find myself living in the wire wrapper, but through various circumstances there I was in 1990 had a job at the, uh uh Well, I went on a government funded training scheme, actually for, uh, um, the tops programme at the Carterton Community Centre. And [01:11:30] with my involvement in that arena of community work and things like that, I became more aware than I ever had been before as an individual of, uh, community issues beyond my own queer issues, if you know what I mean. Always having to prove myself. Yes, you can be best actress nominee. Yes, you can. You get on TV. But is it enough? You know, doing dramas which I have to say were important in their own little right that they progressed our social history a bit more than that. And I was fortunate enough to be one among a few, um, who [01:12:00] were able to have that opportunity. Um, at that time, it wasn't normal. Politics essentially started because of Ruth Richardson's mother of all budgets, which essentially took about 25% of the then benefit rate across the board, Um, throughout the whole nation. And if you didn't think that there was going to be some kind of social consequence, certainly. Um, after that, well, there was, and in a place like Carterton. Um, at that time, we had homelessness in [01:12:30] Carterton. I mean, excuse me. People were sleeping in the fort down at the local park. They were sneaking around people's backyards. So community members, especially elderly, were getting a bit concerned about all of this going on. And I think we had one or two police who worked in carterton at that time to try and cover those sorts of things as a community centre. We took on board this temporary homeless situation, got people sorted with their benefits, et cetera, to be getting exactly what they are entitled to much of like, what happens a lot these days. [01:13:00] And, uh, we approached the local council because we had been donated a caravan, a decent one, which we could use as very temporary housing that was sheltered and warm and et cetera. And we went to the council to ask them if they would provide us the community centre, which ran on the smell of an oily rag, Um, for a powered caravan site at the local um, council owned Caravan Park. And they turned us down flat. And the excuse was, Oh, those are social issues. [01:13:30] Uh, we don't deal with that stuff here. Um, that's a central government matter. So Buck passing was stuff for a powered caravan site for a very temporary period of time so that we could put a person in there that was safer and better than sleeping on the park bench. You know all of that? Well, we got racked up about it. The 92 local body elections came along, and somebody in the centre suggested that I should run for the council. And, um, I said, what the hell did I do? Actually, you know, um, no one gave me the handbook on how this all works [01:14:00] or whatever. So, um, jokingly, But to use it as a platform in the campaign to highlight our social issues in that particular town and district, that's what we were going to use it for. I ran on a ticket with a retired vicar, the Reverend William Woodley Hartley, who was about 80 something at the time. But he was strongly supportive of some of the stuff that we were doing. And so there were lots of, you know, actress and the bishop jokes going on about him and me running on that ticket failed in that very first, um, election [01:14:30] attempt. And, um, I was the highest polling, unsuccessful candidate. And I thought I had done darn well for a trainee that turned up in town a year or two beforehand and now wants to sit on the holy cow of the council. Are you kidding me? But I'd missed out by 14 votes and thought damn good result for a first time outing, given all my history, which was completely out there. My life has always been an open book. I haven't hidden anything. If you expect people in, uh, to vote you into public office, [01:15:00] they need to know exactly who it is they are considering to vote for. I wish a few more politicians would do that. Um, but anyhow, um, that was that I was terrified. When I got elected in 1993 in a by-election, I walked into a council chamber knowing that a majority if not all of them were found my transgenderism to be abhorrent. And, um, what the hell is it doing sitting at this council table? The only woman on the council at the time, Dorothy Booth was [01:15:30] just happy a skirt walked into the room. Um, she because she'd been totally dominated by the most majority male members around that council. My credibility wasn't taken seriously at all. I was sidelined and not involved in more crucial council things. And remember, no one handed me the the the book. I had to be resourceful enough to find out about what it is we do here. Resource Management Act had come into effect. Part of the Resource Management Act requirements [01:16:00] for a council at that time was to set up a consultative procedure with local iwi. I was the first Maori to be elected to the District Council. Guess who they all turn to to run away and get draught policy together on all of that. Me, I'm about as steeped in Maori as, um the extent of my I say that a bit to and I'm a bit more informed and and and, uh, about that now, but really, I was a Maori [01:16:30] if I can put it like that and, um and so I really shouldn't have been taking on this really important policy that we were trying to draught. But I did because I saw it as an opportunity one to prove myself to learn. Um, you know how to go through this process? Long story, short cut to today, except for a few amendments to move with the times. Um, that consultative procedure with in the district still exists today. So, um, you know, we did something right. Establish credibility. [01:17:00] Parliament. Oh, sorry. Mayoralty next, when it was suggested that I should run for the mayoralty because I was just grateful that I was on the council. Now the mayor, you got to be kidding. This is rural redneck New Zealand. You could well understand running for the mayoralty. And, um, of course, history will note that I won that mayoral election in 95 and then these world first things being thrown at me, I've modified the and I'm proud [01:17:30] of them. New Zealand should be proud of them. They're certainly not as proud of being the first tranny to be, you know, serving on those sorts of things as they are, say, of, um, women getting the vote, for example, which I you know, I think it's pretty equal kind of thing the first time. This country, you know, does these kinds of things which become world leading and highly respected. Um, Parliament. I was not. I thought I was fine being the mayor of I loved the job. It was community, you know, It just fitted everything that I'd [01:18:00] done beforehand had nothing actually to do with being transgender. And that's the people of the end of they knew my story. You'd think they'd just turf me out like that. Not at all. They'll spot a fake at 50 paces, I tell you. And if they thought for a moment you were being insincere, not genuine at all telling lies, um, obfuscating or whatever like that they'll soon to you They'll like that. They're straight up people and whatever particular way they want to sort of fit [01:18:30] you into into it. Sonny Davies says it best in the Georgia Girl documentary about me when an old national party stalwart farmer up in the Danny area, um turned around when he was questioned about whether or not um who he was considering to vote into power, um, into the local seat. And the two major choices were myself and Paul, Henry and um and he turned around and he said, I voted national all my life. But I think [01:19:00] I might vote for that Georgina buyer because she's a damn good chap, So OK, I, I could be offended by that. But I wasn't. I thought, Well, whatever way you can put that to rights in your own head. As long as I've got your vote, baby, that's all I care about. And I did. And will you infect the rest of your national party friends up at that end of it? Um, you know, with all of that. And perhaps he did. And in fact, for a labour person to win that seat, you have to win over National party vote. Um, [01:19:30] Parliament boy. Oh, boy. Um, it was a, um it was odd. I mean, at least I had the background of local government to assist me with now what kind of political environment I was in. Um, I won a general seat unusual for a Maori to do. I was one of only two Maori in the parliament at the time that held a general seat myself and Winston Peters. And, um, that's changed, of course, since, [01:20:00] um and and rightfully so, um, the learning curve is huge. Just to understand how that facility works, Um, the immense amount of resource at your fingertips that it took me a year or more to really fully understand. Um, and all of that. And then Tim, of course, was Bob. Tim Barnett was bubbling along with a couple of issues. And the first one up was, uh, prostitution reform coming up for its first reading in our first term and same with civil [01:20:30] unions. And I, of course, got drawn into those. And so, while I was achieving things for my electorate, this huge demand because of my profile as a trans person member of the rainbow community, the pressure from the gay community to also be out of everything for them and so on and so forth. And I had to make some unpleasant decisions sometimes on just where I was going to put my time and resources. And it wasn't always for the gay community, because [01:21:00] I had to ask myself, Who's put me here? The people of the They must be my first priority. Then the party, of course, is quite demanding on your attention and things like that. And then I could work on rainbow issues, which I did, and belonged to the Rainbow Sector, et cetera. And there were only me, Tim Barnett and Chris Carter who were out and gay in Parliament at the time. And so to achieve what? II. I credit Tim with driving, um, Civil Union, certainly from the parliamentary. And I know [01:21:30] it took a huge network from out of Parliament to help that happen. Uh, against the odds we were facing, I thoroughly enjoyed and appreciated the ups and downs, the horrors, the whatever of that campaign and hardened me up as far as politics was concerned. A scary place for a transgender person. You're the only one in the world. Everyone has a demand out there for you. I happily say that not long after Vladimir Luxa got elected into the Italian Parliament. [01:22:00] So from New Zealand, and with me, this sort of, um, cascade of other people who had always wanted to be in that kind of political arena could do it because me and New Zealand and the rapper broke the mould and pushed it forward, and people could say, Well, we can move forward, and it has in some jurisdictions and in other areas, and that's a positive thing I I'll stop now because everyone will be getting, um, a bit bored with all this. If you really want to read [01:22:30] some of it, you can read up to my life till 1998 in a book called A Change for the Better, which is in the library here in Wellington. I haven't even got a copy of Oh, really, Really? At the Wellington City Council with Kerry Prendergast here and everything. Oh, fantastic. Um, I give great credit to the people of the for showing other rural conservative areas of New Zealand. Don't be afraid of people like us. She's done good by us, and I can't see why. Anybody else that wants to follow on her shoes [01:23:00] can't do the same. So, um, we might just yeah, wrap up the the, um, question segment. Um, just with one more question. Um, so, yeah, we kind of just wanted, um, you guys to share any sort of humorous experience you've had, Um, as you know, being part of the rainbow community [01:23:30] or your interactions with others outside of the rainbow community. Um, Georgina, about the Salvation Army was obviously a good one, but yeah, anything sort of of that nature that you want to share as a memory. Um, let me start. Uh, II. I look back on this and sort of sort of crack up. OK, As I've been quite clear, I've put my colours out there. I'm very much involved in the Salvation Army. Now, my heritage is also playing in the Salvation Army Band, [01:24:00] the very band that Georgina was able to go and join in Auckland. Now it's an interesting group to play with. Uh, yes, you could call them homophobic, but they don't actually want to be seen as being excluding people. So they sort of have these little games. They play, you know? Oh, yes, we love you. You're welcome. And they'll never tell you to go away because that's not what Christians do. But what they'll say is, you know, and so I I sort [01:24:30] of dealt with this for some years. Well, one of the things my Salvation Army band that I'm involved in here in Wellington, it's actually the premier band. We do a lot of, um, in ministry and international travel. And in 2007, we had been invited, um, to return to Japan for a ministry tour, and that meant concerts and, you know, church staff and outdoors. And it was the third time. It was the first time I went with them, and I thought, I don't know if [01:25:00] I want to travel for 10 days with all these guys. And I don't think there were any women in the group. Pretty homophobic group. But look, I'll do it. I mean, they knew they knew I was gay, but you just didn't rub their nose in it. On one evening the Japanese hosts came to us and they worked us pretty hard. And they said to us, We have a special treat for you tonight we're going to give you a night off, and tonight we are going to have give. You have a chance to have an on. Now, if you know Japanese [01:25:30] culture and onsen is the environment where you know you go in and you yourself, you get naked, you scrub yourself down and host yourself off and then jump in a very hot tub. And it's all done as God created us. And I'm thinking to myself, Well, they know I'm gay. I've been invited, but probably not a good idea to go. Probably so I said to them, Hey, guys, look, it's OK. You go and enjoy yourself. Um, I'll [01:26:00] see you in the morning, I. I was thinking, you know, if I was a woman, certainly I wouldn't have been going and jumping in the tub with all these guys. And I said So It's OK. I won't. I'll see you in the morning. I had four guys come to Oh, don't be ridiculous. You're a part of us. You're important to us. And one came Trump. Come on, let's get naked together and there. And at that point, I think any pretence of these guys saying, you know, it might have been homophobic. It dropped. [01:26:30] And that's the story. I remind them of a couple of little one ones more. I've probably been the butt of the joke more often than telling the joke. Um, so, uh, one workplace I was in one of the women at the tea room says, Oh, I hear you're bisexual. Um, does that mean you have to bis now? I didn't instantly think of the the, you know the had joined her about [01:27:00] Oh, just as well. I'm independently wealthy you know. So I took it seriously. Later on that day, I got called into the boss's office and told off her, speaking inappropriately about my sex life in the tea room. Well, I wasn't gonna take that. And I explained the situation to her glaring at the same time that I knew that she was bisexual and it was not owning to it. Um, I got it back down from the boss. And who then, um, spoke to the other coworker about, [01:27:30] um, that thing. But it's that thing of like and just one last image as a little, uh, a younger child going through, um, family photos. I came across this 10, that's really interesting. My father, dressed in drag for a rugby club, do never spoke of it, but it was like, it's always nice to have that other look at somebody. Yeah, just one other little thing. My mother lovely Christian woman. Godly woman loved me dearly, [01:28:00] but really couldn't get a head around what it meant to be a gay man. A few weeks or months before she passed on. Um, she gave me a birthday card. Now, to this day, I do not know whether she actually understood what that card said or not. But on the outside, it said, I wish you peace. I wish you joy you turned over. I wish you'd find a nice toy boy. [01:28:30] I could have a number of funny little, um, anecdotes about things. Um well, I will talk about I've been elected the mayor of CARTERTON. A month later, I was had, uh, received an invitation to attend Government House for the, um uh, the queen was there. Dame Cath was our governor general at the time. And secretly and quietly before I became elected as the mayor, her and her daughter, Judith Tizard, um, sent me a $50 donation each for my campaign. [01:29:00] Just quietly, don't tell anyone. And, um, which was lovely of them, and I had never met either of them before. Now I'm mayor. A month later, I'm heading off down to Government house in Wellington to attend this garden party in her honour. And, um and I'm just in the crowd with everyone else. I saw met Leanne Dalzell for the first time there, and she remembers this this occurrence that happened. And, um, and I over Daniel who was our big time Olympic [01:29:30] swimming person. Then, uh, this is 1995. I'm I'm talking about. And, um So when the queen came out and was going, you know, and sort of form formalities happening and the, you know, the people parted because Dame Cath was escorting the queen down the front lawn through the, uh people and introducing to her to people whose names Dame Cath could remember and, um, no doubt and are heading for a VIP tent at the bottom [01:30:00] of the garden. Um, down there were all the good and the great of parliament and the diplomatic corps and mare, et cetera, et cetera. People like that were in a roped off area, so we the 600 pled standing behind the rope were not to go, no further kind of thing. I rushed to the sort of line we were all standing to see the queen. I'd never seen the queen in the flesh before. And so, you know, um, and I was there, and, um, Dame Keith comes down towards us over the other [01:30:30] side, where she's introducing people. Keith clocks me over the other side, and I'm standing next to these two very plu ladies who then prepared themselves for meeting the queen as they saw Kath heading in our general direction, Uh, with the Queen. And they even disposed of their champagne glasses that they were holding on behind them without sort of thinking and prepared themselves for the introduction to the Queen, to which Dame Cath turned around and looked me straight in the eyes. And she said, Your Majesty, I'd like to introduce you to the first, Um, uh, to [01:31:00] the newly elected mayor of Carterton Georgina Baer. The two ladies next to me just about fell apart that the queen should be risked at such embarrassment to be meeting someone like me because I was a bit high profile at the time. And, um, and all of that and I started to chat with the queen when she heard the name Carterton. Um, she, um said, Oh, yes, carterton. We have one in Oxfordshire and I said, and I said, you know, I said, Oh, well, that's wonderful. I said I must get in touch with the local mayor [01:31:30] and and make sister cities out of us or something like that. He said, Yes, we fly in and out of the air base there in in in Carterton, Oxfordshire quite often. And, um so, yes, I know what you mean. And that was sort of that. An off down to the VIP tent with Cath. The two ladies were I had to go and get another glass of champagne to just believe what they'd seen this tranny had been, Uh, well, I'm looking at all the people in the VIP area thinking now that would be handy to make a connection with the mayor of, [01:32:00] um, the connection with the Prime Minister Bulger. It was at the time so And I just thought, I wonder what would happen if I just walked in there, you know, with the people who were sort of guarding the entrance to it, Sort of stop me or whatever. So I looked confident and stood up, and actually, as I'm walking towards them, I said, Oh, hello. Good afternoon. Thank you for what you're doing. Thank you. And just walk past them. And the next thing I know, I was in there, and the next thing you know I'm in there, so I'm chatting away. I introduce myself to Tiffany O'Regan. Um um, get acknowledged [01:32:30] by Mr Bulger and all of that and that sort of thing. I'm having a yarn with Joan Bulger who's there. And she said, Oh, I see. Um, you were introduced to the Queen and I said, Yes, first real queen I've ever met without thinking what I was saying, I hadn't practised it. It wasn't strategized. It just came out of my mouth. Well, it was It was true, the first real queen I've ever met. And, um, and all of that and Joan Bulger, titted and I and I suddenly realise what I said and I said, Oh, my goodness, I said, Just as well, [01:33:00] there's no reporters in here. She points to, um, a Dominion Post reporter standing with an ear shot who caught everything because it was the headline in The Dominion the next day and all of that. So that was sort of rather funny. I met the Queen several times after, Um, since that particular time in 95. I met her at the in the, um, receiving line at the airport when she came for her Silver Jubilee in, uh, in, uh, 2000. When was that? 2002 or something like that. And, [01:33:30] um, the scandal on that one was, and the big picture was of me and the queen shaking hands because it was the first public sort of thing. You know, when we were out in the public and the press packs are there and they took a photo of her and I meeting because people thought, Oh, there'll be a headline on this and there was in the British newspapers the following day. I sort of had headlines like, Bye, George, it's the Queen and then a rather sort of nice, possibly insulting, but a nice you know, sort of friendly article. Helen Clark, as prime minister, wears evening [01:34:00] trousers to the state dinner in a day or, you know, a day or two after. And she was ridiculed and pilloried through every publication in the UK because she wore trousers, not a dress. You know, if you're going to dine with the queen and all of that, you know, you got to wear the proper thing, a ridiculous thing to have had happened and, um, you know, and all of that, So that's just just one more. There's quite a few. I gotta write a book. I found myself at a conference [01:34:30] of 100 parliamentarian women from around the world who are meeting to discuss Children who are put on the front line of war around the world and into sex trafficking and human trafficking and things like that. So we were meeting in Rome, we had our conference and the last thing on the agenda, Um uh, for the for the week that we were there was to go to the Vatican and, uh, we thought, Oh, great, you know, and we'll be there. We'll be able to see the Pope will come out and do this Friday thing or whatever he does. And and I was all excited. I was looking forward to seeing the Sistine Chapel in Saint Peter's. [01:35:00] We get there and we got escorted not towards Saint Peter's, but to the papal apartments. And we were taken up to this chamber, and I kept on thinking, Oh, gosh, I wonder who's walked these steps and all of that sort of thing, and, um, we get up to this chamber, we could see where the pope was going to come in, and all of that sort of stuff everybody surged down the front of the room. Particularly, uh, some of the Asians, Filipinos, for example. And South American, devoutly Catholic people. Um, you know, who didn't expect that we were going to [01:35:30] have this intimacy with the pope? That it was with us and not with the thousands of others outside or whatever like that. So they were beside themselves. In fact, I was really taken, um, by the the the feeling that came over them and they knew they were going to get this. I missed on getting anywhere near the front to get a good view or whatever like that. So I ended three rows from the back, but on the aisle, Well, the pope actually arrived from behind us, not up the front, coming out of some side doors from behind us. And And he [01:36:00] was on his John Paul the second he was wheelchair bound at that time, and his assistants helped him and got him lined up at the, uh, you know, beginning of the passageway down to where his papal throne was gonna be. And he would address us and everything from there and before they sort of, you know, they didn't get got his gowns and things all sorted while he's sitting. He's standing right next to me was sitting right next to me and I'm looking straight at him. And so when he was, um, uh, together he looks up at me and that way he did and blesses me. And this cold [01:36:30] chill ran through me and thought, I am the least Christian person. I am Catholic person in this room, and I'm getting blessed by the pope. When I came back to New Zealand, I had to go and do battle with Brian Tamaki on the TV. And I made some disparaging remarks he had made against me at that time or whatever. And then I turned around and said, At least at the end of the day, Brian, I've been blessed by a pope, And, um, thank you. Thank you. [01:37:00] You guys, any specific stories or can't compete with that? Yeah, I don't think any of us can compete with that. Um, I don't have lots of funny intersex stories, but what I do have is my dad's stupid sense of humour. And it served me Well. This is, um, as you know, from pitch in America. there are [01:37:30] intersex has been around forever. In fact, we know there's intersex dinosaurs. And I'm very proud that the largest dinosaur that was on planet Earth was here in a and it was a vegetarian. So because of red hair and in New Zealand, like, um, America symbolically, that's roughly how many intersex people there are. So same as people with red hair [01:38:00] for the formal segment. Um, but yeah, feel free to stick around and, um, do some mingling and things, but yeah, we just kind of want to, um yeah, express our thanks to you guys and, um yeah, give you a little a little something as a token about immense appreciation for coming here today and sharing your wealth of of stories and experience with us. And there was such a great broad spectrum of, um yeah, like, experience [01:38:30] here today. So it was a complete honour to have you all here to be so generous. Said by others before that, I really appreciate We really appreciate that you've made this forum available. Um, I think we do have things to share with you if you want to hear them. And if you want to know them. And for heaven's sake, don't be afraid ever to approach us over some matter or whatever. We might be able to help, you know, um, by sharing some wisdom. So thank you for this. I think it's positive [01:39:00] our younger generation didn't what most of us here have work to achieve in our lives one way or another to have this youth who in who feel confident that the future is secure, uh, for activism to continue and, uh, where it's until it's not necessary anymore.

IRN: 1190
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/a_place_to_stand.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004529
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089823
TITLE: A Place to Stand
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Jan Logie; Trevor Mallard
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Census (2018); Dana de Milo; District Health Board (DHB); Green Party; HIV / AIDS; James Shaw; Jan Logie; Member of Parliament; Parliament TV; Parliament buildings; Pharmaceutical Management Agency (Pharmac); PrEP (Pre-Exposure Prophylaxis); Statistics New Zealand; Wellington; affirmation; birth certificate; celebration; census; defiance; driver licence; gender affirming healthcare; gender marker; gender reassignment surgery; gender-affirming surgery; homosexual law reform; human rights; identity documents; lesbian; mourning; passport; politics; pride; queer; school; select committee; self identification; trans; transgender
DATE: 14 February 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Mr Speaker. Um, firstly, Mr Speaker, I need to acknowledge the passing of a of the Wellington LGBT Q I community Dana Demilo. In recent days, she was one of our torch holders who created space for so many of us to walk into. And she will be sorely missed by many, Dana. But speaking of great queens, it is pride [00:00:30] season, Mr Speaker, Um, pride is a time of celebration and affirmation for people who identify as gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, intersex, gender, [00:01:00] fluid, gender, queer, pansexual, asexuals, queer and questioning. And while we have come a long way as a country from when homosexuality and trans people were criminalised, we are still a long way from fully realising our human rights. For many of us, our moments of peace and our moments of celebration have been hard fought for So [00:01:30] our celebrations, in fact, are often acts of defiance as well as an expression of joy. And at times, they are also all too often an act of mourning. My ability to stand here open and proud of my lesbian identity comes from the bravery and political advocacy of my elders like Dana. Um, so I'm proud to stand as a green party MP to ensure that [00:02:00] this house and our political platform enables all the members of my community to find a strong place to stand. It's all too often that I hear about the premature death of queer and trans people, sadly, mostly trans people within my community, because they could not find that place to stand. We [00:02:30] all grieve for them and ourselves that we still live in a world where some lives seem to matter more so in the spirit of pride. I would like to draw the house's attention today to some of the work that we need to do to help provide a strong place for my community to stand. And I do want to acknowledge the minister, James Shaw, the minister for statistics for [00:03:00] the leadership and support. He is offering Statistics New Zealand to make sure that the data is collected to enable us to make our case to government for funding. I also want to acknowledge pharmac for their decision to fund prep as a um HIV, the prevention tool and the toolkit to end HIV by 2025 and I also want to celebrate the opportunity in select committee at the moment in [00:03:30] government administration, that gives us the opportunity to create a system that ensures that changes to gender markers on official documents are easy to use, consistent across passports, driver's licence and birth certificates and based on a principle of self identification. So there are rooms and progress is being made, but there is still outstanding issues that we need to turn our [00:04:00] focus to. We need to ensure that access to gender in affirmation, surgery and services are available in all DH BS. A survey in 2014 of DH B showed that nine of them provided a said that they provided no healthcare services at all to trans people in this country. Now that is unacceptable. And when we [00:04:30] know that Trans people can be waiting between 40 70 years to access surgery, we really do have to think that maybe this appalling failure and the gulf between need and supply could only be a result of an attitude that is prejudiced and trivialised, and we need to take action on this. We also need to do more work to ensure our schools are safe and inclusive for our young people. They are unsafe [00:05:00] at the moment and lead and contribute to high rates of suicide. There is much that we need to do to unleash the fabulous of my community, and I hope this House will help.

IRN: 1176
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_2018_opening.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004518
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089812
TITLE: Out in the Park opening (2018)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Harlie Lux; Jan Logie; Justin Lester; Kevin Haunui; Louisa Wall; Lucy Forrestal; Paul Eagle; Steven Mawhinney; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Dana de Milo; Georgina Beyer; Harlie Lux; ILGA World Conference (2019); Jan Logie; Justin Lester; Kevin Haunui; Louisa Wall; Lucy Forrestal; Member of Parliament; Miss Capital Drag (2017); Out in the Park (Wellington); Parliament buildings; Paul Eagle; Pride; Pride precinct; Rainbow Crossing (Wellington); Shelley Te Waiariki Howard; Tīwhanawhana; Virginia Parker-Bowles; Waitangi Park; Wellington Pride Festival (2018); drag; waiata
DATE: 24 February 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Waitangi Park, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the opening of Out in the Park. The event took place on 24 February 2018 at Waitangi Park, Wellington.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hm. Better. Ta [00:00:30] 15 The Yeah. [00:01:00] Hi. Yeah. See you. It's pretty [00:01:30] welcome. Everyone to out in the park. [00:02:00] Uh, just before we begin this week, Uh, welcome to, uh, everyone who's come along all our [00:02:30] the mayor MP S. Um, our fabulous, uh, elders, our youth. Uh, all of our community have come along today. My welcome. So just to begin our our and then following, that will be some speeches and those speeches. [00:03:00] [00:03:30] Morning. Come on. Come on. [00:04:00] That got no. Hi. Oh, I don't know. [00:04:30] Ta, then. Yeah, I in [00:05:00] my I I i [00:05:30] to I Yeah. Migrant. How are you? Hi. Hi. [00:06:00] See, Lady, Uh, good morning. And welcome to out in the park 2018. My name is Steven. I am Co-chair and part of the organising committee for our Wellington, The group that brings you out in the park and the Wellington Pride Festival to [00:06:30] we are so, uh, honoured. And, uh, privileged to have played a role in creating a diverse, inclusive and celebratory annual Wellington Pride Festival to this year has seen an incredible assortment of events which represent, promote and celebrate a variety of values we strongly believe are essential for the LGBT TQIAF plus community diversity, inclusiveness [00:07:00] and respect have been strong themes throughout our planning and the list of events that we have in our programme for the 2, uh, 18 festival. Uh, we can't wait to share them from all of us on the committee. Greg Wilson, my fellow chair. Steve and our secretary, Leon McGowan Wilson, our treasurer funding Arthur Roxy from entertainment. Elizabeth Uh uh, the fabulous person who actually put this all together for today. Uh, Richard [00:07:30] from our coms and Josh, our youth and community liaison. These people have been working tirelessly for you over the last nine months to make this and the festival a reality. Uh, we hope you enjoy it for us today. We have massive, massive a lineup of entertainment for you across the whole day. As you can see, there is over 70 stalls around for you to have a peruse. We've got some tasty food around. Uh, but I do want to take, uh, a brief moment, [00:08:00] uh, to acknowledge, uh, all the people that are not with us here today. Uh, this last year has taken quite a toll on our community, and we've lost some very strong people and strong leaders from our community. One of these, uh, is Virginia Burns. A K, a Virginia Parker Bowles. She's actually part of the reasons why myself and a lot of the committee asked that stood for the committee this year because of her beliefs and her, uh, determination to create fabulous events. Uh, and I've been given permission from her partner Jack [00:08:30] to read, uh, a piece, Uh, from vs final statement to the community before she passed away. This was, uh, for a memorial held for her, um, either Beaver. And later that evening, uh uh, after this memorial, which we managed to watch live, uh, she passed away, surrounded by friends and family. So I just want to take a minute to read this little passage. Um, and then I'd like to take a minute Silence for us to remember any of our loved ones that are not here with us today. He was diagnosed with [00:09:00] breast cancer in 2013. It stopped me from committing, uh, continuing my community work. And I'm really annoyed about that, but I'm excited about what? You lovely. Uh, li can get out and together and achieve all around this park today, Uh, there is talent and skill and willingness to build on the past successes. So if your event mildly interested, [00:09:30] jump in and get involved, as they say, Sorry, uh, make Wellington's queer events as big shiny as they can be. There's room for everyone you know you want to. Anything that pops in your head can be done. There is plenty of people to help you to achieve your vision. You just have to treat them well. And you will find the right to support the event and connect with your audience. Took my love. Virginia, please take a moment. Silence. [00:10:00] Thank you. Uh, it is now my honour to welcome to the stage, uh, our fabulous mayor of Wellington, Justin Lester, to open our festivities. [00:10:30] Thank you very much, Stephen. I do want to acknowledge a few people here amongst, uh, the many young people, uh, and, uh, our entire community, uh, Paul Eagle, Louisa Wall and Jan Logie. Great to see you all here. And thank you for your support up in the big house in Parliament as well. Uh, 32 years we've been having it out in the park in the city, and it's getting bigger, bolder and brighter every year. And I know next year is going to be a busy year. Uh, to, [00:11:00] uh, the next 12 months, in total next year will be hosting the conference, Uh, for the first time in Wellington for the first time here in the Southern Hemisphere. And we're looking to mark that in the city as well, by creating a pride precinct in and around Cuba, street with rainbow crossings and flags and being bold and bright and making sure the entire city and all of New Zealand is aware of our support for the pride community. So I'm really looking forward to that. Uh, why is this important for us? And why do we want to celebrate? [00:11:30] Uh, the Pride community? Or we wanna make sure we're, uh, inclusive, that we're diverse and that we're making a safe environment for all of our young people. All of our and the entire pride community. So today enjoy you being you And what, right now, I'd like to welcome to the stage uh, Jan Logie to say a few words. Yeah, [00:12:00] it is lovely to see all of your faces. and to have seen all our young people coming in to this space today. It kind of gives me hope. Um, for where we're going, Um I do too. Want to, um, acknowledge those who have passed in the last year? Um, V and Shelley Howard and Dana Demilo. These are were really important [00:12:30] people to a lot of us who opened up the space for us to be able to stand here and feel strong and proud. And, you know, while we celebrate with pride all too often there's still underlying grief for our friends and people we love who, um, have, you know, past or, um being a victim to the discrimination that we're fighting against. So, [00:13:00] um, I want to acknowledge everyone, um, here, who is continuing to stand proud and strong to make sure that those spaces are free and open for all of us to be as wonderful and fabulous as we are and yeah, yes, and all of our diversity and the absolute brightness and wonderfulness [00:13:30] that we give to communities when we're able to be ourselves in all of our diversity. And I want to let you know that in parliament we are doing our best to keep that fight going to get rid of the discrimination and to make sure that everyone has access to good health care, safe environments and the freedom to be. And we know we still have work to do, and we are committed to doing that for all of us. [00:14:00] Thank you, Jen. That's also my honour to welcome Louisa Wall and Paul Eagle to the stage to say a few words like to acknowledge Kevin and our and also our amazing inside out for marching to this amazing out in the park event. So I want [00:14:30] to to Justin and our council leadership for providing this opportunity. So I've flown down from Tamaki Mako because your MP grant Robin Robertson is over at the Winter Olympics. So I'm the But we also have here the amazing Paul Eagle who's the MP for. And I know that Paul, uh, to our community 100% just adding on what Jan said. And I'd like to acknowledge the leadership [00:15:00] of Jan because we do have a cross party that is fighting hard for our rights. But we can't do the work that we do without you because It's all about all of us being really clear about what our needs and aspirations are and us using the platform that we have as members of parliament, to advocate and to be activists sometimes about what our needs and aspirations are. I see the amazing Georgina buyer down here, one [00:15:30] of our icons, and I just want us all to remember that 32 years ago, when this event started, we were fighting homosexual law reform, and it was about us being equal citizens in our own country, and we've come a long way since then, but we've got a long way to go. So we're all here today to celebrate all of us. The LGBTI Q two plus plus plus, whatever it might be, [00:16:00] this is about being inclusive. There's no I guess, opinions or decisions made about how people express themselves because we need a community that embraces one another, and we collectively experience discrimination and stigmatisation. And today is a day where we're all free to be who we are. Paul, would you like to have a little? I think Look, I endorse everything that Lusa has said, and we were talking just before [00:16:30] we came up on stage and said today is about love too. So we thought, Let's sing to a together. So we're going to get you up on your feet and I'm going to get our wonderful here, uh, to kick us off on the And for those who don't know it, just listen in and pick up a few key words and let's all do this together. Um, [00:17:00] no. Oh, my God. Come here. Yeah. [00:17:30] Cheers down. Um, here, Kai Koto killed up. Yes, the main city of [00:18:00] now [00:18:30] Yeah, yeah, yeah 1010 Yeah, [00:19:00] yeah, yeah [00:19:30] fun in my dark care night bye. We we We are not [00:20:00] won it I food Exactly in my Yeah. No. Yeah, but [00:20:30] what? That Well, But then, uh, you know so again [00:21:00] you know. Oh, you please join me and thank it again. Thank you to WW for opening our festival for us. Just one note from our Fear Director Elizabeth Marshall. She's the one again that was here to to put this together. She just wants to make sure that you guys have a fantastic day today to keep coming to these events, [00:21:30] to keep enjoying yourselves and to keep having fun just as V wanted. Just so you want to know these programmes for the festival over at a HQ Over there There's a big one on the board But right now it is my honour to officially open out in the park and the Wellington Pride Festival to please welcome your MC today our youth MC, Lucy and the fabulous mixed capital drag Harley Lux Hello [00:22:00] and welcome to Out in the park 2018 I'm your youth MC for the day Lucy Flores and I am Miss Capital Drag 2017 Harley las So, Lucy, are you excited for today? I am very excited. Are you guys excited for today? I wanna hear you say that a little loud. Are you excited for today? [00:22:30] That's more like it. So, Lucy, what does pride mean to you? Well, this is my third year coming to out in the park. The first year I came was 2016 and I came. It was probably a few months after I came out to my mum. Um, I came out to her while we were watching MasterChef, and I was like, Ok, I'm gonna do it in the first ad break, and [00:23:00] I didn't do it until the ending credits because I was so nervous. But it went really well. And a few months later, we came to out in the park 2016, which was the year the parade went around the waterfront and, yeah, last year was amazing. And little did I know that I would be standing here M seeing the entire day this year. Yeah. So, Harley, what does pride [00:23:30] mean to you? Um, pride means, uh so this is probably the fifth or sixth out in the park. I have been to, um and pride means to me is it's It's just so amazing to see everybody just coming together and celebrating family. Um, this is the second time I've ever stood on this stage. And last year I was just performing, and now I'm co MC with the gorgeous Lucy, and it is the most amazing experience, and it's so amazing to see all your gorgeous faces. [00:24:00] So let's have a great day. So we would just like to thank really quickly Park Road post production who have set up this entire stage in lighting. They are an internationally renowned purpose built facility, providing award winning sound and picture finishing in Miramar. [00:24:30] Alright and we also would like to thank Wellington Hospitality Group, Wellington's leading and fastest growing hospitality group with 18 different venues and our local region. They are passionate at about about thriving Wellington and supporting our local communities. Amazing! Now whose first time is it here today? Oh, we've got heaps in the front. That's exciting. Are you having a good time? [00:25:00] And whose second time is it? Amazing! Alright. Can we do some practising of applause now? Are you ready? Can you give me a five out of 10 round of applause? Ok, what about a seven out of 10 round of applause? [00:25:30] And what about a 10 out of 10 round of a ball? No. Alright. I would love to bring on your first act for this amazing day. They are the invisible bisexuals. You probably haven't seen them, but with yuk and violin in hand, these lounge lizards play good old fashioned parlour tunes just like your Nana likes dripping [00:26:00] with filthy innuendo. Also just how your Nana likes Please give a 10 out of 10 round of applause for the invisible bisexual. Can I talk? I.

IRN: 1181
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_2018_maddy_drew.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004513
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089807
TITLE: Maddy Drew - Out in the Park (2018)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Maddy Drew
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Canterbury earthquake 2011; Census (2011); Census (2013); Census (2018); Human Rights Commission; James Shaw; Lesbian and Gay Fair; Maddy Drew; Newtown; Newtown School; Out in the Park (Wellington); Statistics New Zealand; Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington; Two Ticks Campaign (2011 Census); UniQ Victoria (Wellington); Wellington; Wellington Pride Festival (2018); bigotry; census; coming out; engagement; gender identity; gender standard (Statistics New Zealand); intersex; media; non-binary; queer; sexual identity; statistics; survey; trans; youth
DATE: 24 February 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Waitangi Park, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Maddy Drew talks about the upcoming Census, and the earlier Two Ticks campaign which attempted to jam the Census in 2011.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: We're at the out in the park. Uh, pride festival. Um, I've only just arrived. Um, so just catching up with friends and so on at the stores, bumping into people I haven't seen for a while. Um, it's a lovely Wellington day. There's a little bit of a breeze. Yeah, that's lovely. There's lots of people here. It's huge. So just arriving. So what is your kind of initial impression? I don't know everybody anymore. Um, so many people, so many people. This is awesome. [00:00:30] Like I think back to, um What was it called back then? It was out in the square before that. So back at Newtown School, the Newtown School fair? Because I grew up in Newtown and I went to Newtown School and I went to South Wellington Intermediate and, um yeah, so I was going to the fair before I was well before I knew I was queer. Even if other people knew that I was, Um, yeah, it's just it's grown so much. It's so awesome. There's so many different people here and everybody looks happy. It's cool [00:01:00] now. I was talking to some politicians earlier on today, and they were talking about the, um, James Shaw census change to include both gender and identity questions. And then I thought, Maddie, you've done some stuff in the you've done stuff in the past and you were responsible for the two ticks. Yeah, Yeah, I was, um, I. I was one of the people involved for the two ticks campaign to jam the census in 2011. Um, so that was born out of [00:01:30] about 10 years of, of engaging, um, through every channel available, um, with government departments, Um, particularly with statistics New Zealand. Um, obviously the Human Rights Commission. Um, but we got to the point where we've been engaging and engaging and engaging and they weren't changing, and they weren't listening that, you know, they might even agree with us. Um, but then they'd say, it's too difficult we can't do it. Um, so how how I got into it was, um I went to Victoria University and I was at the library [00:02:00] one day, and they had a survey like, you know, just a little survey, just a little user survey. And the first question was, Are you male or female? And I was like, This is stupid. They've got Trans students. They've got Trans staff. They should be more inclusive. But also, what are they gonna do with it? If, um if they find that 100% of the people who are filling out their survey are female, are they finally gonna put more toilets in? Because the only ones that have queues are women's ones? And that would actually be useful. But they wouldn't. They would just go. Oh, that's interesting. Maybe [00:02:30] I wonder why only women filled out the survey and not change anything. So what's the value of the information? What's the point in collecting it and alienating people and then not using it? So I I said this to a staff member and they said, Oh, that's a very good point. And, you know, I talked to a manager and oh, that's a very good point. And, um, they took my details. They came, went away, they came back, um, in a few weeks and they said, Oh, we collected that way because the university collects it that way. [00:03:00] And I'm so kicked off that that years of of engaging so you know, long story short the university collected that that way because the Ministry of Education collected it that way. And the Ministry of Education collected it that way because the government needed it that way because Statistics New Zealand collected it that way. And so, yeah, started engaging with stats N and, um with with the two Ticks campaign. What we realised was that if you get the question wrong, they impute the data, which means [00:03:30] they make it up for you, and they've got a method for how they make it up. Um, and it's, firstly, they try to guess it from your name, and then they try and guess it from your relationships to other people in the house. Like, Have you said that you're a mother, for example? Then they'll they'll guess that you're female. There's a whole methodology for making up. Finally, if they can't guess from any of that, then they flip a coin like they they they actually flip a coin that's in the standard. That's in their sex standard. Um, but there was something at the bottom [00:04:00] there, if I remember rightly, which said that if, um, more than point, uh, point 1% of people got the question wrong. Um, it made the data invalid. And we were like, Here's our end. And so we started this 26 for six campaign. You gotta remember, this is, at the time of, like, the Bill and Ben party like, there's gonna be all our community who are gonna do it to be supportive. And then there's gonna be all these people who are gonna be, like, two ticks for sex. I like sex. I like it twice. [00:04:30] Um, um yeah, it was in the media. Um, we were all set, and then the Christchurch earthquake happened, and the census was cancelled. And, um, yeah, my heart goes out to the people in Christchurch. But I was annoyed that the census was cancelled because we were all set for this. We were totally gonna ruin their data because the data have been wrong all along. And what value is [00:05:00] it if it had been wrong? Because they they had kept saying, we need to be able to compare, and it's like, but the data is wrong and you're using it to develop health services, and you're using it to justify political and policy decisions. And it's wrong. It's wrong because there are. There are people who are not male and female or or female. So there are in six people, and there are people in between. And trans people, and you're excluding them. And what's the point? So how long has that conversation been going on? [00:05:30] Uh oh, I. I mean, I. I only came out when I was 18, and it will have been going a long time before that. Like, I'm sure there are people around who would know, Um, more than me, like, Yeah, I just got involved through through uni and and two ticks and so on. Um but yeah. If you go and have a look when they when stats NZ did start looking at changing their gender standards. Um, for the 2013 census, they actually, they cite [00:06:00] the two ticks campaign as as one of the drivers for that, like, yes, recognised by the government. Finally. So what? What are your thoughts on, um, Minister James Shaw coming out and saying yes, they are going to put gender and sexuality, um, questions in the census. It's not going to be in this census. Do you have any thoughts on that? I think there's There's no value in doing the census. If the information that you're collecting is wrong because you're using, [00:06:30] um, methodology that is seriously, seriously outdated. They're asking the same question that they've asked since they started doing it. As far as I know, maybe, but, you know, for for a long time that's how they've asked the question. Are you male or female? And that's it. And that's not useful. And that hasn't been useful for a long time. Um, why would you not delay the census and get the get the information? Correct. Um, so I've I've tried requesting a paper form so that I can still tick both boxes [00:07:00] and, um, you call the 080, 800 number. You push one to request paper forms. You push one to request them in English. You push one to request it for your household and you enter the code that's on the letter that's been mailed to you and you push hash and and then it cuts you off. And so you ring and say, Did that work? And they're like, Oh, we don't know what happened there. Oh, we can't. We can't do it because your code's already been used. And you're like Ah, yeah. Did they know? Did they put my number in the system [00:07:30] so that were they deeply suspicious of me? No, I think it's just the system is overloaded or broken or something. But surely that also points to the the the how flawed that is. If, for instance, you don't have Internet connections and and then they suddenly saying that your number is invalid because you've tried once, and it didn't work. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Like hello. Uh, bring on the next one and bring on the engagement because [00:08:00] there was a long engagement process, um, around the 2013 1, and they ended up going with a a question for the gender standard. That was really rubbish. Um, it was kind of like they'd taken consensus, uh, but not got not understood. Consensus. They just taken bits of what everybody had said and kind of mashed it together. Um, so, uh, the evidence internationally, this kind of agreement around this now is that a two step question is the best way to go. That's the most inclusive, um, [00:08:30] and the most useful in terms of the data that you can get out of that as well. So for health service and social service provision that collects really rich data like that's the stuff that we need. Yeah, Yeah, just, uh, bringing us back to where we are today, which is out in the park. Why do you think these kind of events are important? Um, because there's still there's still a lot of bigotry, and, um, it's It's not just it's not just for the queer community, [00:09:00] but for any kind of minorities. You need to be able to find people who you can relate with, um, in order to be well in the world. Um, so finding finding your niche is really important. And hopefully people are making connections here, and they can find their niche.

IRN: 1182
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_2018_louisa_wall.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004512
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089806
TITLE: Louisa Wall - Out in the Park (2018)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Louisa Wall
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Big Gay Out (Auckland); Bisexual flag; Chris Bishop; David Seymour; Education Review Office (ERO); HIV / AIDS; Hikoi to Out in the Park; Human Rights Commission; InsideOUT Kōaro; Intersex flag; Jacinda Ardern; Justin Lester; Louisa Wall; Manatū Hauora Ministry of Health; Member of Parliament; New Zealand Labour Party; Out in the Park (Wellington); Paediatric Society of New Zealand (PSNZ); Parliament buildings; PrEP (Pre-Exposure Prophylaxis); Pride Parade (Wellington); Pride parade; Pride parade (Auckland); Rainbow flag; Transgender flag; Tīwhanawhana; Waitangi Park; Wellington; Wellington City Council; Wellington Pride Festival (2018); bisexual; criminalisation; cross political party working group; discrimination; diversity; flags; gender affirming healthcare; gender reassignment surgery; gender-affirming surgery; government; homosexual law reform; intersex; school; school safety audit (ERO); suicide; trans; youth
DATE: 24 February 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Waitangi Park, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So we were at the Amazing Waitangi Park here in Wellington, and the event we're at is called out in the park. And we had this most amazing welcome by today after a whole lot of young people from inside out marched here. And it's just the most fantastic vibe that I've ever think I've seen here and after 32 years. It's wonderful that this level of support from our community and and wider community because I [00:00:30] do believe there are more than just LGBT people here. I think the straight people have infiltrated our event. Now, just before we started recording, Um, there were some young people that came up to you and just said, Thank you for legalising us. It's been amazing. Actually, it is amazing. And especially when you think of this event specifically because it started in 1986 and in 1986 As we all know, we've yet to go through homosexual law reform. And so we were fighting, uh, to be [00:01:00] valued as citizens of our country. You know, in our past, we have been treated as criminals and some of us have convictions and have, um, been to jail and experience huge discrimination and trauma, Um, which has led to lives of drug, alcohol dependency, suicide issues. And I think, what have been most, um, heartened by. There's a lot of young people wearing intersex flags and trans flags and buy flags, and [00:01:30] it's just so cool like we are absolutely, um, a rainbow. You know, actually, and it's wonderful that we are able to come together. I mean under the umbrella of the Rainbow Team, because it's still a struggle in society for us not to be discriminated against and to be treated equally. So the fact that everyone can come express themselves is no judgement. We can be who we are, and all of our beauty is fabulous. [00:02:00] Now, one of the big things that's changed since we last saw each other, which was, I think, last year at Pride. Um, you're now in government. We are in government. So when we were not in government, we formed a a cross party group. And so myself, Jan Logie, um, Chris Bishop and David Seymour have been working together across the house to look at issues that are specifically relevant to our rainbow communities, and a lot of the advocacy has been writing to ministers. [00:02:30] It's been working with organisations like the Human Rights Commission and so last time I think we particularly managed, um, to advocate for our intersex community. And so we've had, um via the Paediatric Society, funded by the Ministry of Health. A group for that now will specifically look at best practise guidelines, issues of consent, uh, for the our intersex community. How do we support parents? What are the best practise guidelines? Um, around that issue. Um, so now [00:03:00] that we're in government, actually, a lot of the things we've been writing to ministers about, like aero and making sure that our schools are safe for our LGBT youth we can actually implement as the government. So do you have anything in the pipeline that's that's coming up in the next couple of months? Oh, we've got lots in the pipeline. So, obviously with funding for prep, um, there's been a big emphasis on our inability as a country to perform, um, gender affirmation surgery. Um, it's certainly been something that we're focused [00:03:30] on because, um, we know there's over 90 people on the waiting list, you know, and there's no relief for them other than possibly being sent overseas. But the government have been incredibly negligent in this area, I believe because we know that, um, people who are trapped in a body that doesn't align with how they see themselves, um, end up becoming depressed. And, you know, a lot of our young people, especially our our trans young people, attempt suicide at four times, Um, the average rate. So [00:04:00] those have been our big focus areas. And to say that we're not focused on them now is not correct. I mean, they've become more of a focus. Um and so, yes, we're doing everything that we can to make sure that we're in a position to, um, as a country be able to deliver those services ourselves and not rely on sending our young people and actually anybody on the list, because some people have been on the list for over 10 years, you know, overseas. And it's it's been a tragic [00:04:30] set of circumstances, to be honest, and one where we haven't prioritised the needs of our community. It's really heartening to see, say, in the Auckland Pride, where Jacinda, the prime minister is marching, so coming right from the top. You've got that support for LGBTI rainbow issues. And I think with Jacinda, her history within the party has been standing in our Auckland central electorate. So to say that she has an an affinity with our community is kind of misrepresenting the past. And now that she's the prime [00:05:00] minister, I mean, it was just natural for her to keep doing what she has been doing participating in our big day out, um, and bringing her caravan and, you know, being the hub for our Labour party store. Um, historically at our out in the park. So, yeah, I mean, we're very fortunate, I think, to have, um, at the moment, leadership who absolutely supports our community, values our community. And now we're in a position we have to do everything we can to make sure that our community needs [00:05:30] are as important as other communities and that we actually have resolutions of some of these long standing issues for you personally. What does being at something like out in the park mean for you? Oh, for me, it means I get to enjoy and, um, celebrate with our community, our diversity, and I've got to say that, Um it's wonderful. I look around and I see so many young people. I see a lot of young people, as I said before, who are proud to display [00:06:00] their trans flags, their flags. Um and there's a lot of harmony here today, like it actually feels like a celebration and it's busier than I've ever seen it before. So people who don't understand what it's like to be a stigmatised discriminate, discriminated against group, having the ability to be visible for people to collect the eyes. I never underestimate the strength and that ability for us to come together. So thank you to Justin and Wellington City [00:06:30] Council team. We couldn't do it without them. Thank you to the people of Wellington for coming out and showing support, but mostly thank you to our rainbow community who is no longer afraid to be out and proud. Now we we're not gonna hide away any longer. You know those days are gone, and that's what today signifies. For me. It's kind of the dawn of a bright brand new day.

IRN: 1183
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_2018_jan_logie.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004508
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089802
TITLE: Jan Logie - Out in the Park (2018)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Jan Logie
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Act 2021; Dana de Milo; Education Review Office (ERO); Green Party; James Shaw; Jan Logie; Member of Parliament; Out in the Park (Wellington); Parliament buildings; Shelley Te Waiariki Howard; Statistics New Zealand; Virginia Parker-Bowles; Waitangi Park; Wellington; Wellington City Library; Wellington Pride Festival (2018); birth certificate; bisexual; books; data; diversity; domestic violence; family; government; kapa haka; leadership; lesbian; queer; remembrance; school safety audit (ERO); select committee; sexual violence; statistics; writing
DATE: 24 February 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Waitangi Park, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast MP Jan Logie reflects on Out in the Park and talks about some of the current LGBTI rainbow issues the government is focusing on.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So we're at out in the park, just standing by the Wellington Library stall of, um, queer books and queer literary icons. And we are celebrating the fabulous diversity in Wellington. It's very diverse today, isn't it? Yeah, it's gorgeous. I'm just loving it. So we've got beers and skirts and queers and trousers and lesbians and bisexuals and [00:00:30] groups. We've got everyone, and it's looking gorgeous. Things have changed since the last time we talked. And you are now in government. Yes. I've got a new role as parliamentary undersecretary to the Minister of Justice with a focus on ending domestic and sexual violence. Yeah, which is really exciting. So, um, I'm part of the executive and this, you know, progressive new government. [00:01:00] What does this new government mean for rainbow LGBTI communities? Well, I guess some of the signals that we've had so far are a prime minister marching in the Auckland Pride parade for the first time ever. Um, we've had the minister for Statistics Green. Uh, Minister James Shaw, Um, clearly communicating to LGBT Q I plus communities that, um he wants Statistics [00:01:30] New Zealand to prioritise our inclusion in surveys. Make sure that we build up a, um, uh, evidence base for our, um, policy needs. And, um, you know, there's been a few other things happening, which I think, uh, show a positive signs that we can make some real progress. Can you mention those? Um, so? Well, I guess at the moment in the select committee [00:02:00] as well, we've got the birth deaths and marriages bill, um, where there's the opportunity to change the process of changing your gender or sex marker on your birth certificate. Um, and my hope is that the select committee report that unanimously recommended that that be process be based on self identification rather than put in the hands of the court to decide somebody's sex or gender. Um, I'm hopeful that we're going to get that through, um, which [00:02:30] is pretty exciting. Um, there's a lot of murmurings happening. Um, though nothing conclusive yet around possible positive initiatives in terms of, um, accessible health care. Yeah. Um, and also around the education review offers going into schools and doing the audit for safety. Um, so I think there's a lot [00:03:00] to be hopeful, I think. And how have you found the transition going from opposition to government It's really exciting. I mean, to be really honest. It's taken, but it's taken a while to get my head around The fact that I don't have to, you know, go out to the community and create this big lobby that I can just go and talk to somebody and say How about we do this like that is quite a quite a significant change. Um, there's a lot of a lot [00:03:30] of work that has to happen behind the scenes to be able to turn the ship around to getting the kind of results that we need. But, um, but it's exciting. I think it was you that mentioned earlier on in the day about remembering people like Donna Shelley and the, you know, amazing leaders who were really active and contributed so much in our community as elders. And, you know, they've been younger than me. But, um, and [00:04:00] the you know that the loss of them has really felt yeah, and and that you know, the people who I know who passed who were leaders. But I'm also aware of, you know, some of the young ones who I didn't know whose names weren't known to as many of us but were really dear to their friends who, um, you know, may have passed far too early. And, yeah, so, like, it's it is [00:04:30] that thing of coming and celebrating in the pride and also acknowledging that there is for many people, that underlying grief at the same time. Yeah, so on a personal note, what does being here today mean to you? I guess it's a chance to like, if I'm really honest, just relax and soak up and feel like, you know, this is kind of it really is just this sense of kind of family. I know it's a cliche to say, but it really does feel like that to me. It's just like, Oh, [00:05:00] all these people I love and I never get to see And we're all in one place. Yes, like my girlfriend is standing beside me, who I never get to see and and just like, how wonderful is that? Yeah, it.

IRN: 1212
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_2018_valda_edyvane.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004520
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089814
TITLE: Valda Edyvane (Armstrong and Arthur charitable Trust for Lesbians) - Out in the Park (2018)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Valda Edyvane
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Armstrong and Arthur Charitable Trust for Lesbians; Bea Arthur; Bette Armstrong; DANSS (Wellington); Lesbian Information, Library and Archives Centre (LILAC); Out in the Park (Wellington); Out in the Square (Wellington); QUILTED BANANAS (Wellington Access Radio); The Drag Kings (Wellington); Valda Edyvane; Victoria Club; Waitangi Park; Wellington; archives; coming out; dancing; dinner parties; diversity; funding; gay; homosexual law reform; lesbian; older age; role model; visibility
DATE: 24 February 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Waitangi Park, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Valda Edyvane talks about the Armstrong and Arthur Charitable Trust for Lesbians.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm, um, with the Armstrong and Arthur Charitable Trust for lesbians. And, um, we have make a regular, um, presence out in the park. And, uh, we are very happy to, uh, interact with our members of the community and other interested parties and the work that we do for the trust and your still today, you've got lots of photos of, um, be and B. Yes, we have. Um this is a new, um, [00:00:30] a new thing that we've introduced because we were interested in digitising some of the photos of, uh, B and B, but also, uh, show the communities, particularly the youngsters, uh, that that these women had a very interesting life and, uh, how they were behind setting up of the trust. It's such a lovely idea to to kind of keep their spirit alive and and to have their their images here today. It was actually very [00:01:00] it was marvellous. Compiling this is just a sample that we had copied because we do have their photo albums in our archives, and, uh, it really made the women seem to come alive again. I vaguely remember, be and be, uh, they came out to their communities in the 19 eighties during the homosexual law reform. And that's when I I met them. But of course, they'd been around a lot earlier than that. And, um, some, some [00:01:30] of the, um the guys the gay guys will remember and because they were members of the Victoria Club around an Oriental bay, Uh, they actually died in the early two thousands, and our trust went on from there. How is how is the trust going? What? What are some of the projects you've been working on? Well, we have regular funding for the, uh, lesbian library, lilac and the Wellington Community Lesbian [00:02:00] Radio Programme. We've given some money to the drag kings lately and to dance the same sex dancing competitions. Unfortunately, because of our, um, interest rates and our, um, restricted finance our restricted income, we don't have quite as much money to give out as we did. But, um, these are our core core things And be and be, of course, were very keen dancers. And, um, I [00:02:30] I'm sure if they were here today, they'd just be overwhelmed. So what do you think they would have made of? I mean, there are so many people There's so much diversity. Um, so different from the mid eighties. I imagine. I think, Well, I think they would have been overwhelmed. I'm not quite sure if they would have that. They wouldn't have had culture shock because of of the diversity now. But, um, they did, um, have a wide range of friends in, um, in our communities. [00:03:00] And, um and some of those, um, friends participated in their their, um, rather popular um, dinner parties. Uh, but II, I don't know. I mean, I think they were way ahead of their time. And I'd like to think that, you know, they they would be proud. And we're very proud of them. And on a personal note, What? What is it like for you to be at an event like this today? Well, I've been at various fairs and [00:03:30] out in the squares and parks for a number of years, and I think it's very, very important to be visible. But as an older lesbian now, I think it's you know, it's important that I keep coming because, um, we need always need role models. And I mean, I'd like to think, um, just my presence here might you know, inspire some some younger women, Uh, and also that for those women who are a bit older [00:04:00] that you don't have to fade away and, um, go and live in the suburbs and never come out to things like this. And you might not, um, and, uh, always agree with everything, but there's enough here, I think, to to enjoy and inspire and stimulate. And I just think it's it's really, really important that we we come and support, um and be visible.

IRN: 1211
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_2018_randy_and_eddie_2_gaze.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004519
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089813
TITLE: Randy and Eddie (2 Gaze) - Out in the Park (2018)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Out in the Park (Wellington); Waitangi Park; Wellington; acceptance; apparel; artist; arts; clothing; community; environment; fear; fun; punk culture; queer; safe space; upcycle; validation
DATE: 24 February 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Waitangi Park, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Randy and Eddie from 2 Gaze talk about their clothing business.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So we're at, um, out in the park in Waitangi Park. Um, we own a business called two gay. So that's spelled, uh, two number two GAZE. So to gas. Um, it's also a play on words. Um, and we sell, um, screen printed apparel, Uh, t-shirts and, uh, punk patches. So we use upcycled, um, clothing. And, um, we do all the screen printing ourselves. And, uh, this is our first out in the [00:00:30] park, and we just try to keep it, try to keep it green by using, like, old t-shirts and fabric that no one wants to use anymore. Yep. That's pretty much what we do. So where did the idea come about from? Um Well, we we met at art school. Um, a couple of in 2016. So, um, uh, we bonded over kind of a a love of, like, punk DAY patches and T shirts and stuff. And we decided to, [00:01:00] um, do stuff together. Yeah, we both loved the idea of, um making like putting our own designs onto clothing and sort of just wearing art rather than just plain clothes or having to spend lots of money on designs that we wanted otherwise. Um, I think, um, first and foremost, we're artists and not, um, retailers. So it's mainly, [00:01:30] um, getting our our image out there, and, um, we're also doing a queer, um, environmentally friendly. Um, FRL. Yeah. So it's great. We love it. And so what brought you to out in the park today? Um, actually, just by chance, seeing the posters, um, they were doing a call for stall holders, and, um, me and we do the, um we do the market circuit in Wellington. Um, just in the small kind of independent ones. Uh, and, uh, we [00:02:00] decided, why not take a chance? And it's It's probably one of our best days yet. So can you describe the atmosphere? Oh, I see everyone walking around in groups. So there's this huge kind of community kind of vibe, and it's I feel really safe here, and it's great. It's so colourful and bright. And even though the wind really isn't on our side, we're still kind of, um we're still having a lot of fun. Yeah, it's like it's so Wellington [00:02:30] like we should have We should have known this is Wellington. But, um, it's great. And it's the most Wellington weather. So, have you been involved in, like, um, other pride events, you know, in the previous years? Uh, no. We've We've really, um, attended them. And I think this is our first time actually being a part of an event that's huge. And, um, it's really cool. I mean, like, um Elizabeth, who is the main volunteer? Um, for the, uh, stores, Uh, she's, um, really good at setting [00:03:00] everything up and, like, we, um we we had a table for us wedding, and it's really cool, so yeah. No, I definitely wanna come back again. If somebody couldn't attend today for whatever reason, why would you have a, like a message for them? Um, basically, just even like you don't you can be an ally. I mean, you don't have necessarily have to be, um, LGBT, uh, to be here. Um, it's a great event. Uh, there's [00:03:30] like, there's so much art and performance and just this amazing atmosphere. And, um, I just recommend it to everyone. I mean, and there's even like these, these dogs here, which is like one of the best things ever, And, um, it's really cool to see all these um, a lot of young people as well, especially since, um, like with recent years and and, um, there's less fear, I suppose, for young, queer people and, um and yeah, and [00:04:00] it's great. It's I mean, you should be here if you're not. It's probably one of the most open spaces I've been to like, because sometimes with queer spaces like you can worry about, like some of the other, like lesser known identities and like whether everyone's like on on the same level of understanding so. But with here, I'm usually really happy with, like just how validating it is. Overall, I think, [00:04:30] um, there's a part of today that's a lot of that's educating a lot of people as well. Um, and I mean, a lot of people wouldn't know that this event would be here in, um and wouldn't think that it will be relevant to them. But it is. I think, this this event has something for everyone, even if it's just acceptance and learning more and having fun. Yeah.

IRN: 1210
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_2018_millie.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004517
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089811
TITLE: Millie (St Vincent de Paul Society Wellington) - Out in the Park (2018)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; 2nd hand clothing; Aotearoa New Zealand; Kilbirnie; Out in the Park (Wellington); ReSew initiative (Wellington); St Vincent de Paul Society (Wellington); Waitangi Park; Wellington; Work and Income (WINZ); advocate; budgeting; bunting; church; clothing; courts; finances; food parcel; foodbank; home support; housing; pregnancy assistance; sewing; social services; social work; visitation
DATE: 24 February 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Waitangi Park, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Millie from the St Vincent de Paul Society talks about why they are at Out in the Park and the ReSew initiative.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um, so we are at the vine Wellington tent. So that's Saint Vincent de Paul society. Wellington. Um, we're here just promoting our social services, Um, so that all of our communities know that they can come to us for help. Um, so that covers our social work, uh, food, bank, visitations, and pregnancy assistance. And we also have our new project RESO. So that's up cycling all of our textile waste from shops and turning them into new products. So we're making rainbow bunting here at the moment. [00:00:30] Yeah, And so you do volunteer work at Vinnie's? Yes. Um, I myself am the coms and marketing manager. Um, but we have a huge volunteer, um, support group, so Yeah. So tell me about some of the programmes that that that Vinny's office? Yep. Um, so we provide our social worker. She can't be here today, so we have a mannequin stand in for her. Um, but she does a lot of advocacy. Um, a lot of, uh, budgeting advice. Um, she'll come with you to whether [00:01:00] it's immigration wins housing, um, to court. She'll come in and help support you through those, um, situations. Um she also offers home support. So that's providing furniture, Um, clothing, utensils, Um, if you need it. Yeah, whatever you need. She's there to support you, and then we have our food bank. So that's providing, um, family and single food parcels. So that's for immediate assistance or long term support. And then we've got our pregnancy assistant. [00:01:30] So that's for new moms, um, supporting them and their families. Providing baby clothing, reusable nappies, maternity clothes. Um, just any support in that area? Um, and then here we've got reso. So that's our new big project. Um, so that's, uh, based on our Kilburn shop. And, um, we've got a whole sewing department there creating new products out of all of our textile wastes. Um, because we have spent a lot of money on dumping textiles that we can't sell in our shop. So we're trying to [00:02:00] repurpose them now for for good. So does have, like, specific rainbow L GB IQ, um, policies. Um, no, we just pretty much all of our services are open to everyone and anyone. Um, yeah. So that's we don't have anything specifically written into our policies. Um, our team going forward do want to push more of that for it to become formalised, but yeah, it's just showing that our services are for everyone. Um, there is a church [00:02:30] element to some of this, so we want to make sure that that's not a barrier for people coming to us. Um, it is a free judgement. Uh, non judgmental, Um, confidential service. So, um, we just want to know that you want people to know that they can come to us. Um, yeah. Is this the first time that Vinny has been at out in the park? Yes. Yes, it is. Um, we as a team just thought it was really important. Um, that this part of the community know that they can come to us. Um, a lot of our clients do [00:03:00] come from this community, so we we support them, and we want to make sure that everyone else knows that, too. So what are some of the biggest issues that you have kind of come across with, um, rainbow alg by our community members? Um, I think it's just that they face themselves in daily life. Um, yeah, I think it's that because there's yeah, the barriers that they're facing financially. Maybe, um, finding homes or just dealing with some of the or like some of the organisations like wins, [00:03:30] and that if there's any barriers that they're facing, we want to be there to back them up and make sure that they get what they deserve. And they're entitled to what they what they need. Um, so we're just a support service, really? To make sure that they get what they need, Yeah.

IRN: 1209
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_2018_merv_ransom.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004516
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089810
TITLE: Merv Ransom - Out in the Park (2018)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Merv Ransom
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Census (2018); Criminal Records (Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences) Act 2018; Department of Internal Affairs; Education Review Office (ERO); Grant Robertson; Green Party; Human Rights Commission; ILGA World; ILGA World Conference (2019); InsideOUT Kōaro; International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association (ILGA); James Shaw; Jan Logie; Merv Ransom; New Zealand Labour Party; Out in the Park (Wellington); Public Service Association (PSA); St Vincent de Paul Society (Wellington); Waitangi Park; Wellington; bottom; census; drag; government; judgement; marriage equality; plebiscite; polarisation; polarity; promiscuity; rainbow desk; school; school safety audit (ERO); stereotypes; takatāpui; top; visibility
DATE: 24 February 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Waitangi Park, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Merv Ransom talks about Out in the Park and some of the current issues facing LGBTI rainbow communities.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So move. Can you just describe what you can see around you? Sure. Uh, Waitangi Park. Actually, I think this year everyone seems to have gotten younger. The crowd seems a lot younger this year. We're just getting older. Yeah. Yeah, that that's right. One or the other. And everyone seems happy. Nice weather. So there's good turnout. What? What are some of the stores you can see? Um, well, I was the first one I went to, because there's that, um, conference next year. PS [00:00:30] A Used to be a member of them, uh, labour party greens. I can see lots of food. Saint Vincent's workshop, I think. With Glenn. So, yeah, a mixture of political community, rainbow kind of stores. So move. Why? Why do you think these kind of events are important? Um, because then you're not hiding in shadows and you're visible in the community. Very important. Yeah, I'm 100% pro being visible because [00:01:00] otherwise, you know, you're kind of, um not seen. Not represented. Kind of like the census stuff that needs to be rectified. So So what is it? What's happening with the census at the moment? So my understanding, because I've been in Aussie is that, um they did some initial testing, and the answers could be either misconstrued or I think the data was going to be hard for them to collect. And, um, James Shaw, the minister, he's, um, fixing [00:01:30] that with the person responsible for the census. I think so. We're not gonna see the results, though, until, um, the next census is my understanding. But it's I, I guess a step forward when you've got the minister saying, Well, actually, we are gonna do this totally. And I think the lady I forget her name acknowledged that, um, yeah, there was some difficulty, but she's pro getting it. She's not one of those, um, obstructive kind of people, so I think that will be sorted eventually. So [00:02:00] there's the, um, census thing going on at the moment. But also, there's the, uh, historic conviction, uh, bill going through parliament. What are some of the other things? Um, kind of in 2018 that are affecting, um, rainbow LGBTI communities that that should be looked at. Oh, well, I think the biggest thing that I have well, I felt since I got back is that las in government. So you got, you know, Grant Robert Jan Lo. Um I think the time is [00:02:30] right, you know, for us to make momentum. I think it's good. I don't have too many worries at the moment about how we're how we're progressing. You know, if marriage equality just build on the gains since then, No, I think we're in a good place. And And you were saying that you've just come back from Australia? Yeah. Um, so their marriage equality was that a few months now. So yeah. So they finally got their act together and, um, passed that legislation. So yeah, it was good to feel like a Kiwi was, you know, over [00:03:00] there. And we were ahead of the times, Those Aussies. So what was the mood like over there? Oh, like a bit indignant, like, you know, they've been pushing it, and then that plebiscite. So it was, um I think they were suspicious that they were trying to get the public, um, animosity going because of the process over there. But, um, I think they ended up just essentially voting on it. And, you know, finally doing what they were meant to do with their [00:03:30] mandate as, um MP S and yeah, finally happened because it was a long time. It was, like about 10 years, wasn't it? I think so. Yeah. It had taken ages. I don't know what it was, but, you know, finally they got got through it. Yeah. So what do you think are some of the biggest issues um, around today for for for, um, LGBTI Rainbow Communities in New Zealand? Um, I think, um, and I'm thinking of inside out at the moment, So er so [00:04:00] schools being audited better. Is that so? You know, with our coming out stage and all that, so that could be more closely monitored. We could get our rainbow desk back into existence, you know, maybe under the Department of Internal Affairs. God. What? I've got a whole freaking work. Pro programme. I should share with you. What? What? What is the rainbow desk? I've never heard that. Um, so this is what I've heard, so don't quote me. Um, except we're being recorded. [00:04:30] Um, back in the day, all legislation supposedly had to pass through this rainbow desk to check its rainbow friendliness. Yeah, and somehow that died. And now we need to resurrect it, so that will require some lobbying. But we've got a receptive audience now, I think, with with labour and greens, so and and so where would that sit? Would that be like, say, Department of Internal Affairs or something? I think that would be the logical [00:05:00] place. I think it was under that department back in the day. I think that Yeah, to me or maybe the, you know, Human Rights Commission or just anywhere, Really? As long as we have influence, you know? Yeah. It's a great idea. Yeah, that's why we need to bring it back. So, um, tell me what What does a day like today mean to you? Um, I'm just into being out there, being proud of who you are, you know, common [00:05:30] issues coming together. I like this sort of stuff. I prefer this to the scene where you get stereotyped. Yeah, that's why I prefer this kind of thing. Does that still happen? Yeah. Hell, yeah. We can't be complacent. Yeah, we can't be complacent. So if I said to you, what are the kind of stereotypes that are kind of around at the moment? What would they be um, all promiscuous. All go to clubs. All go to saunas, top and bottom polarities. That's just a few [00:06:00] that we all do drag. It's interesting how some things change and then other things don't appear to it Seems you know that that that was something going on 2030 years ago. Yeah. Yeah, like I haven't tested that theory out. I must admit for a while, but I just like to do my own thing. That's why I identify, because it includes my culture as well. You know, we get to define ourselves. Not other people put labels and categories on us. If somebody wasn't able to be here today, what kind of message [00:06:30] would you like to give to them that you should consider yourself welcome? And if any little bitchy scene queen gets clicky on you, you need to report that because what I've found is that sometimes our community can be the most judgmental you should be all embracing. And I don't tolerate that crap. So we need to weed those out in our community and put them in that person. She's like, Would you have liked to have been judged that way? Like you're not XYZ enough for our community. So we need [00:07:00] to be a bit more all embracing. So make sure you feel welcome, and if not, let me know.

IRN: 1208
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_2018_max_tweedie.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004515
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089809
TITLE: Max Tweedie (New Zealand AIDS Foundation) - Out in the Park (2018)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Max Tweedie
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland Pride Festival; Ending HIV (campaign); HIV / AIDS; HIV education; Hikoi to Out in the Park; Max Tweedie; Out in the Park (Wellington); Pharmaceutical Management Agency (Pharmac); PrEP (Pre-Exposure Prophylaxis); STI; Waitangi Park; Wellington; community; condoms; diversity; health; health care; health education; safe sex; sexual health; undetectable viral load
DATE: 24 February 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Waitangi Park, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Max Tweedie from the New Zealand AIDS Foundation talks about the Ending HIV campaign. Its aim is to end new HIV transmission by 2025.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So we're, um, out in the park and the beautiful Waitangi Park on a gorgeous Wellington day. And I'm here with our New Zealand AIDS Foundation staff at our ending HIV tent. Um, we're kind of here for a couple of reasons. So the first reason is to talk to people about prep, which is the new HIV prevention tool that's been funded by pharmac, uh, from March 1st, and also to, uh, kind of still push, uh, condoms and have a really fun space that our community can come hang out and talk about ways that they can stay safe. So is this. The first year prep [00:00:30] has been available in New Zealand. Uh, so prep has been available in New Zealand, Um, previously. But it's kind of been there's been a few hoops to jump through. It's been has to import it from overseas. Only a few doctors have known about it. Um, so now PHARMAC has kind of said that they'll fund the drug. It's gonna be $5 for a three month supply. Um, and basically, it means that you can just go to your doctor, um, like, usual and basically get and get a prescription for prep. Not all doctors are yet to kind of know about it and understand it and be really competent with prescribing it. So, um, if you if it's something [00:01:00] that people are interested in, there's a list of prep prescribing doctors on our website that people can get to and make sure they're going to the right place. So is this the the message from the AIDS Foundation? Now it's both prep and condom use. Yeah, definitely. Um, yeah, there's kind of there's now kind of three key ways to say safe. The first is, um, and condoms, which has kind of been our message for a while. Our second is prep because it's proven to, um, protect people from IV. But also for the third kind of way is for people living with HIV, um, and are on sustained treatment. [00:01:30] Often they have, um, what's called an undetectable viral load. And that means that if they're having unprotected sex, they are still unable to pass HIV on. So that's the third way, um, that people can protect themselves from IV, and we're going to be talking a little bit about that kind of in the coming in the coming year, which is exciting. So how are the community responding now to, um, the AIDS Foundation's messaging? Yeah, it's been quite interesting because quite previously, the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. Our message has been condoms, condoms, condoms, condoms. And now, for us to have kind of 22 [00:02:00] really new brand new ways of of protecting people from HIV. Um, it's super exciting to be able to share those messages in the community. And I think the community, they're pretty excited, too, because, uh, you know not, you know, condoms are for everyone. Not everyone enjoys using condoms. Um, so it's great that there are other ways to kind of prevent HIV, and it's really great that we're able to talk about those and engage with the community, and it seems pretty receptive. Um, there's obviously we've still got a lot of questions and stuff as people have got concerns. But it's been really great being able to engage with people and have really cool conversations [00:02:30] and and hopefully to help achieve us in our, you know, in HIV by 2025. And so you say concerns. What are what are the biggest concerns people have? I think people, um, and people that have been in the community for a long time that have, you know, been around since the eighties and stuff. Um, you know, they they're almost afraid of of drifting from the condom message. Um, obviously, if you're on prep or, um or, um, an undetectable viral load is the way that you stay safe. Obviously, there are still risks of contracting other STIs. So I guess there are concerns around that, [00:03:00] but, um, but, you know, they're being managed. And obviously there's also concerns about, um, you know, people saying they're on prep and maybe not being on prep. But it's really because fast the message is now you have to take, you know, you have to take control of your own of your own sexual health, and it's in your hands. And I think prep is great because it empowers people to do that. Um, so, yeah, we've had a couple of concerns, but it's been nothing major at all. Um, and had some really good responses from the general messaging. So, on a personal note, uh, what's it like for you being here today? [00:03:30] Oh, it's fantastic. Um, I've just I'm mainly I'm Auckland based at the moment. Um, so we just come back off off Auckland Pride. Um, and now, being out in the park, seeing our amazing community come out and it's beautiful had the beautiful of the youth coming in. And then, obviously, it's just amazing to see our community come together, um, so beautifully and so beautifully diverse, Um, as well. So it means a lot for me to be here to be proud. Um, and to see such a beautiful, accepted community and being [00:04:00] welcomed by the mayor, it's just it's really fantastic for us to be here and be a part of it If somebody wasn't able to be here today for whatever reason, what would you like to what kind of message would you give to them? Uh, if you're not able to be here for whatever reason, I think, um, what I really like, you know, is there a There's a massive community here. It's a community full of, um A. And it's a community full of, um, acceptance and love. Um, so if you can't be here because if you're not, you can't really? You don't feel like you can show yourself here yet. Then there's a whole community out here waiting for you. Um, that our community supports [00:04:30] you and loves you. Um, and, uh, kind of up and down the country, no matter where you are, uh, you are loved, and we can't wait to see you in the space when you when you finally kind of, uh, come out and get to be with us.

IRN: 1207
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_2018_mani_bruce_mitchell.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004514
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089808
TITLE: Mani Bruce Mitchell (Intersex Awareness New Zealand) - Out in the Park (2018)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Mani Bruce Mitchell
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bangkok; ILGA Oceania; ILGA World; ILGA World Conference (2019); International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association (ILGA); Intersex Trust Aotearoa New Zealand (ITANZ); Justin Lester; Kaupapa Māori; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Michael Fowler Centre; Māori; Out in the Park (Wellington); Pacific; Pride precinct; Rainbow Youth; Stonewall riots (1969); Tīwhanawhana; Waitangi Park; Wellington; bisexual; conference; diversity; gay; harbour; host ropu; human rights; indigenous peoples; intersex; intersex visibility; kaupapa; lesbian; mayor; safe space; street queen; transgender; visibility; waka ama
DATE: 24 February 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Waitangi Park, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Mani Bruce Mitchell from Intersex Awareness New Zealand talks about the upcoming ILGA World conference in Wellington in 2019.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: We're here in Waitangi Park. It's the out in the park, gay and lesbian, transgender, bisexual and intersex Fair plus plus plus. And the reason that we're here is for two reasons. So visualising the issue of intersex. But also, we're here talking about this time next year as the World Conference. So this is a conference, a human rights conference, [00:00:30] and exciting. We will have the world here, so we will have people from literally all over the world. Um, probably about 600 delegates and the conference will be in the centre. So if people are interested, they can go online and register. And conferences are not everybody's thing, but the really important thing. We are hosting the conference. So every night of the conference there will be events. [00:01:00] And if people are interested in and hosting people from around the world, then they certainly should contact us. Is this the first time? Uh, the conference has been held in New Zealand. It's the first time the Elga Conference has been in this part of the world. So it's never ever been done into the Pacific before. So the conference last year was in Bangkok, and typically you would go opposite so it would go back to Europe. But because [00:01:30] it's never been to the Pacific before, it had never been to Asia before. There was a decision to come down here. So you know, it's huge. Have the themes been announced yet in terms of what the conference will be about? The Elga themes have not been announced. But we the host, um, who hold, if you like, create the basket that the conference is held in. We're very clear that there will be a visible of indigenous culture. [00:02:00] So the conference will be held in Maori values, and this is a profoundly important issue all around the world to visualise indigenous culture. So I think in our community in general, we we're at a point where we need to create safe spaces for the marginal members of our community and get better at recognising the diversity. If you like, of the rainbow community [00:02:30] and thinking about as we move forward, we need to move everybody forward. Um, and not the privileged members of our of our community. It was really lovely earlier on hearing, um, Mayor Justin Lester saying that he wants to make something really big for next year, Whether I think he was he talking about a kind of a like a rainbow precinct around Cuba Street. And we're just starting to explore that I want the whole city just glittering and rainbow. Um, so at night, every single [00:03:00] shop window would would be, you know, filled up with coloured lights. I I absolutely. And you know, last night I was watching the on the harbour and I just towards the end, the WAKA crew went out with a little LED lights on the back and I thought, How cool is that? Like, we've got a beautiful, magnificent city and I think we could make the experience of people coming here to to a incredibly memorable. [00:03:30] So a conference with 600 delegates is not just going to happen by itself. Who's organising it? Is it? Do you have a huge team of people? So Elga organises the conference, and that's the reason that they do it only once every two years because it's a huge undertaking. But the other thing about next year it's the 40th anniversary. So, you know they have 40 years of history of doing this. They know how to do it, and they do it incredibly well. I've had the privilege [00:04:00] of being to two world conferences, but there must be a local component. That's that's that's helping organise. So how it works is that, um, local community groups and there's three of us. So there's intersex trust to and Rainbow Youth, uh, the host. And so we hold. We do all the on on ground local logistics, and then the conference itself arrives from over the world. And if people, [00:04:30] if people are interested, they can register online. There's a website, Um, if people want to be involved in the conference in terms of presenting, then they can contact one of us. And you were saying that it was the 40th anniversary, and that is the 40th anniversary of Elga itself. So there's two anniversaries, and this is quite important and significant. So the first is the 40th anniversary of Elga. So when it was set up and it's the oldest gay and lesbian [00:05:00] organisation in the world, so you know that's important. But next year is the 40th anniversary of Stonewall, so it's going to be a a dual anniversary. So I want to also make sure that our conference visible S and and celebrates our street queens. You know, because when we talk about gay liberation, that was actually our our street queens who got out there and started the fight with the police. This sounds like an amazing, [00:05:30] amazing, um, event. Well, it's gonna be a It's gonna be over a couple of weeks. Is it? So the actual conference is over a week, But the Elga world board and their representatives arrived the week before, so, yes, there will be people here in Wellington for a fortnight, so yeah, get excited, um, ideas and get in touch with us.

IRN: 1206
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_2018_loretta_hunt_tevaga.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004511
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089805
TITLE: Loretta Hunt-Tevaga (NZ Police) - Out in the Park (2018)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Loretta Hunt-Tevaga
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Amanduh la Whore; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland Pride Festival; Diversity Liaison Officers (police); Loretta Hunt-Tevaga; New Zealand Police; Out in the Park (Wellington); Pride Parade (Wellington); Pride parade; Pride parade (Auckland); Waitangi Park; Wellington; community; diversity; police; rainbow police car
DATE: 24 February 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Waitangi Park, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Loretta Hunt-Tevaga talks about the New Zealand Police stall at Out in the Park.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So we're at out in the park today at Waitangi Park, And, uh, the store I'm with is New Zealand police. And why are you here? So we're here to support, um, diversity. So how does diversity work within the police force itself? So diversity is part of police core values. Um, And without diversity, uh, we wouldn't be able to be the police that we are today [00:00:30] because you also have, um, the diversity to liaison officers. Yes, we do. So they work together very closely together with our rainbow communities, um, to show engagement and support, um, and keep the police updated in regards to what events are taking place. And any issues and concerns also, that our communities are facing. Uh, do you know how long those, um, deal offices have been in place? Is that a new thing? No. So, as far as I know, I've been in the police for eight years, and I've known of the DL OS for [00:01:00] the last three years since being involved with the Pride Festival. And so So So you've been involved with other pride festivals? Yes. So, last year was my first time being involved in supporting, uh and it was fantastic. So I arranged and organised police to be part of, um, the Pride parade itself. What was that like? It was fantastic. Yeah, it was a great day. We had great support from the police. Great presence. Um, and I just want to show our support for our communities. And was [00:01:30] that the one in Wellington or Auckland Wellington? Because that was one of the first times that I've actually gone through the city streets for, like, about 20 years. Yeah. So, um, I was in contact with Amanda Laa. And so it was through her that, um, gave me the opportunity as police to get the police to support the event. And are you going to be involved in this year's parade? Yes, definitely. So I'm also organising police to be part of it. I actually drove the parade vehicle from Auckland yesterday [00:02:00] to make sure that it would be part of today's event as well as Pride parade. And this is a special police car painted in lovely colours. Yes, it is. So it's it was specifically painted for, um, our rainbow communities in these kind of events. And so they were looking at moving the stickers, but they're looking at now keeping the vehicle, um, as a community vehicle up in Auckland. Wow, that's great. And have you heard how how the Auckland Pride Parade went in terms of the the police? Uh, [00:02:30] just watching on the news. And they're yet to give us feedback in regards to, uh, the Pride Festival. Uh, the pride parade. But just looking at the photos and looking and from the news. I mean, it was an awesome event. It was huge. Yeah. What do you think is the importance of things like pride, parades and pride events? Uh, the importance is we are part of the same community. So whether you're black or white, um, we are one community, and we need to [00:03:00] work, uh, a lot closely together and support each other and, um, in our differences, um, because that's what makes the world a better place. Yeah. Yeah.

IRN: 1205
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_2018_lauren_wilkerson.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004510
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089804
TITLE: Lauren Wilkerson (Mercer) - Out in the Park (2018)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Lauren Wilkerson
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Hikoi to Out in the Park; Kiwisaver; Lauren Wilkerson; Melbourne; Mercer New Zealand; Midsumma Festival (Melbourne); Out in the Park (Wellington); Rainbow Tick; Sydney Mardi Gras; Waitangi Park; Wellington; aged care; ageing; ageing workforce; diversity; finances; financial wellness; gender equality; gender transition in the workplace; mental health; mercerfinancialservices. co. nz; rest homes; retirement; transition; youth
DATE: 24 February 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Waitangi Park, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Lauren Wilkerson from Mercer New Zealand talks about financial wellness amongst rainbow LGBTI communities.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Currently, we're at Waitangi Park, just behind Chaffer Dock in Wellington. So we're celebrating the Pride Festival this year. So this is the first day of the two week festival that's going on. Um, yeah, and there are a lot of rainbows. It's amazing. It's an amazing amount of people. Yeah, so good. And the pride that came in this morning was so good having the youth groups march in with all their pride. They said, 1234, open up the closet door, which was amazing, you know? And it's great that [00:00:30] you've got young, really young people coming in to pride who are just exposed to stuff like this and who are still fighting the fight. So yeah, it's good. And so which store are you here today with? So I am the Mercer Kiwisaver store. So we're just talking to people about kiwisaver about savings and obviously raising awareness with the young people and financial wellness retirement planning. But there's quite a few people who don't I don't know what Mercer do because we are, you know, are quite [00:01:00] small compared with the banks. Um, so it's just promoting our products, but also financial wellness as a whole. Does financial wellness impact rainbow LGBTI communities differently than than the wider community? Yeah, absolutely. So Mercer released some research. Um, just last year, in terms of the ageing workforce. Um, because what we do find, um and this isn't a generalisation. This is just what the research shows. So, um, older rainbow community members are less likely to have Children [00:01:30] possibly less likely to be married or have a partner, um, at later stages of life. And so they do. They do really suffer financially when they don't have some dependent to to kind of grow old with, um, but also with the ageing workforce going into care homes as well we're talking about, um, you know, if someone identifies a particular way and they go into a home, there's huge education to be done around that. So it's making sure they feel comfortable enough to go into a home [00:02:00] that is, is where they can be gender affirming and be proud of who they are and not be forced to wear the wrong clothing. So, yeah, it's, um it's just setting people up, Um, for for the future, really. And I think you know, there's a lot of things that the rainbow community do suffer from. And I think being financially aware, you know, normally kids will turn to a parent or, um, you know, someone senior in their family, they might not even have that. So they have a very kind of youthful community around them, which is great, [00:02:30] but they might not have someone who can give them guidance and stuff like this. So does Mercer have any specific rainbow or GB kind of policies? Yeah, absolutely. So, um, last year we got our rainbow tick, and as part of that, we've just tried to find the gaps and the holes in our policies. And so the, um, this year we released our transitioning in the workplace, Um, guidelines. So for anyone who's transitioning at work and we find there's not much advice for either [00:03:00] the person who needs to transition or or HR and people managers who are helping the person transition. And so we've also made all our parental leave policies inclusive. So whether that's surrogacy, same sex couples, single parents, everyone gets treated the same. So equality is a huge thing for us. And what does the rainbow tick mean? So for us, the rainbow tick means that starting to join, um, a collective group of, um of companies and government. Private. It [00:03:30] doesn't matter who you are. Um, just to kind of share ideas. Um, it takes away the competition of trying to sell a product and breaks down those walls. And it's where we can share ideas and give advice. You know, we've done our HR policies. We know some people are at the start, their rainbow tick journey. So we want to help them along, and it for us. Also. We can, you know, put something like a rainbow on the website. People go and go to us. They know we're inclusive and diverse. It's not just about, um, but it's not just about [00:04:00] the label. For us, it's It's the essence of Mercer being diverse and inclusive. So we have, um, resource groups for pride, for women, for gender equality, but also for a accessibility and inclusion. Mental health awareness, um, racially, racially and ethical. Um, you know, policies and being mindful of that. So it's it's diversity as a whole for us. So is this the first time that has been at a pride event Uh, no. So this is the second time we've done [00:04:30] a Wellington pride event. Um, and we have also done a couple in Melbourne. We do midsummer, and we're trying to get into the Sydney Mardi Gras scene as well. So we're just trying to raise our profile, I think mainly to show that we're an inclusive, um, employer as well. You know, like there's great talent out there and it's been proved that you need a diverse workforce in order to do well in business. So we want young, well, young and old to know that we are diverse and we're welcoming. So if you've had troubles [00:05:00] in the past with different companies that don't accept you for who you are, come to us, you know, the whole the whole essence for us is bring your whole self to work. So we have a running hashtag at work to to bring your whole self because if you can't, then it's detrimental to you to your mental health, to your colleagues. You're not productive. You don't you know you struggle. So So you have to be able to do that on a personal note. What does it mean for you to be here today. Uh, for me. Well, um, as a member of the Rainbow [00:05:30] community, I have always attended a pride wherever I can. Last year, I thought, you know what? I'm going to bring Mercer to to pride. And for me, it was getting people aware of what kiwisaver is to be honest and helping them with the financial education and financial wellness. Because so many people don't know what it is. They don't know why it's there. They're scared of it. Um, they think people are going to take the money or they're gonna lose money. So for me, it's just it's getting people aware of of what they can do with their money and getting them set [00:06:00] up for for life. Really? You know, and I I want to help them. And obviously, being part of the rainbow community is really important for me to educate those younger than me, um, to to to their potential, as as anything. If somebody couldn't attend today, for whatever reason, do you have a message for those people? Well, so plug me. So, um, we do me a financial services dot co dot U dot co dot NZ. So go to the website. We have our Kiwi saver [00:06:30] and flexi saver products. We have free financial advice so you can ring us and speak to someone for free to work out what you want to do with your money. Um, we are a diverse and inclusive employer. So if you're looking to get into the financial, um, workforce or the corporate workforce or you want a change, we do such an array of things, then get in touch with us if you're interested. Um, and I think holistically, you know, you're not alone. There [00:07:00] are thousands and millions and billions of people out there that are part of the rainbow community. And I know if you're at home and if you're struggling with coming to terms with maybe differences within yourself, um or, you know, you're scared that, you know, maybe your parents or your relatives won't accept you. There is an entire rainbow family out there that will take you, so just don't be afraid. And, uh, yeah, we'll support you.

IRN: 1204
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_2018_lagi_tuimavave.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004509
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089803
TITLE: Lagi Tuimavave (Wellington Community Law Centre) - Out in the Park (2018)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Lagi Tuimavave
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Community Law (Wellington); Lagi Tuimavave; Out in the Park (Wellington); Waitangi Park; Wellington; advice; beneficiaries; birth certificate; gender identity; identity documents; law; legal rights; records; trans; transgender
DATE: 24 February 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Waitangi Park, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Lagi Tuimavave talks about the work of the Wellington Community Law Centre.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So I'm here with the Wellington Community Law Centre and we are at the out in the park, Um, queer Festival Celebrating, Um, our gay and lesbian. So what can the community law Centre do for rainbow LGBT R communities? Well, so we offer free legal advice. We offer service, offer family law services, which includes, um, helping them change the agenda on their birth certificate. So just explaining the process, how it works, what's required. [00:00:30] And it's explained in simple English so that, you know, they can understand. And they know it's not a scary process. Um, and we also help them with, um, other rights. We just we pretty much explain what are the rights they have. So what it's like to identify as a male or female. Um, what that means what that will require of them. Like in terms of which toilets they use medical medical care. Um, helping them correct [00:01:00] their records. Yeah, all sorts of things. It's just explaining what rights they have and and telling them that they do have rights. Yeah. So how big a need is it for? Do do you get a lot of people contacting you? We haven't had a lot of people, but we have had a few people, like I can say I've had I've served a client who's come in to for help explaining, um, court documents, you know, he she wanted to change the gender, Um, and was just confused about filling out some forms. [00:01:30] And so we were able to sit down with him, um, and fill out some forms and explain the process. And then, yeah, it just made things simple for him. Um, but that's that's the one that I've had the experience of of helping. But I'm sure at the community Law Centre, all throughout New Zealand will have had a few as well. Yeah, and in terms of changing birth certificates and that, I mean, is it hard in New Zealand at the moment to to go through that process? [00:02:00] Um, no, it's not hard. It's just that when you've got a piece of legislation in front of you that you are having to understand and you don't have any legal background, it's going to be hard. Um, and also it's a long process. So sometimes the wait can make people unsettled. Can make people question what's happened to the application. But when you go to the community Law centre, you know they will tell you. OK, this is approximately how long you have to wait because other [00:02:30] agencies have to send information to the court. So and by this time you probably hear from them. So we encourage our clients to come back. And if they are worried, if they need further help to write a letter, drop a letter to send somewhere, but yeah, we always make sure that they can come back to us if they need further help. And in your experience, have you found that the other agencies are respectful? Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. Um well, this is the legal rights, and you can't deny anyone their legal rights. So if [00:03:00] those agencies are required to send information, then they need to do it. Um, if they can't do it, then they must give reasons for withholding information. Yeah. So who can visit the community Law centre? Anyone and everyone, um, we look at particularly serve there. Those with very low income who will receive benefit, um, students, Um, those who are unemployed or have Yeah, unemployed. [00:03:30] Um, just community people. Just pretty much anyone will assess whether we can give legal advice to you, but yeah, to a whole lot of people in the community. And so personally, what does it mean to you today to to be at something like out in the park? It's wonderful because, you know, legal rights and legal services are so often denied to people. Um, and with such a community, that's growing. It's so important for them to know that we are a safe place for them to come [00:04:00] to as well, because we do have services that will help them. Um, and we do not deny that sort of right and service to them, Yeah.

IRN: 1203
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_2018_trudie.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004507
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089801
TITLE: Trudie (New Zealand AIDS Foundation) - Out in the Park (2018)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Trudie
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Christchurch; Dunedin; HIV / AIDS; HIV / AIDS; HIV education; NZAF Ā whina Centre; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Out in the Park (Wellington); Queenstown; STI; Trudie; Waitangi Park; Wellington; Wellington Sexual Health Service; chlamydia; endinghiv. org. nz; gonorrhea; syphilis; testing
DATE: 24 February 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Waitangi Park, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: Trudie from the New Zealand AIDS Foundation talks about rapid HIV and Syphilis testing at Out in the Park.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi. I'm Trudie with the New Zealand AIDS Foundation's Athena Centre over at Willis Street in Wellington. And we're here today doing free HIV and syphilis. Rapid testing. It's just a small prick in the finger where we extract a wee bit of blood and we are able to then put the blood into the testing cassette, and then our clients can go off on their way. And what we say is no news is good news. So we don't give any results today. Um, but we [00:00:30] will follow up with anyone who needs additional information and who has a positive, uh, preliminary diagnosis. I. I guess one of the, uh things would be often people would be anxious, I imagine. Yes, some people may be really anxious, and so we try to give them some information that no matter what the result is, they can still have a wonderful quality of life. And if they don't want to test today, we show them how to book a test on our website so that they can come to our centre, and if they're not from Wellington, [00:01:00] we let them know that we actually also have centres in Auckland in Christchurch, as well as some services for the regions as well. What we say in terms of ending HIV and new HIV infections, it's really important that we test often. So a good part of having a healthy sexual life is to know your status and by knowing your status testing. Often we can end new HIV transmission by 2025. [00:01:30] And you were saying earlier that you're also testing for other SS. Yeah, that's right. So we're here today with our lovely partner from the Cuba Street Clinic testing for other SD. So sexual health is doing gonorrhoea and chlamydia testing and we are testing for syphilis. There is a growing number of syphilis cases and so we really want to have the community come and get tested and know where they are for you personally. What? What is it like being [00:02:00] out in the park today? You know, being here today is really special for me because already since we've been setting up this morning, older men in the gay community have come and they've talked about how this didn't exist when they were younger. They some have shared their stories about being prosecuted in the past and what they've been through, so to see the joy of the community and everyone coming and celebrating together, I think it's really important from [00:02:30] a multi generation perspective because things have come really far in terms of equality and we still have a ways to go. But they've come incredibly far and New Zealand has really led the way. If somebody can't be here today, would you have a message for them? Yeah, if you can't be here today in terms of testing, we have our website ending HIV dot org dot nz where you can go online and you can book a test again. That's ending HIV dot org dot NZ to book a test [00:03:00] with us. And if you can't be here to partake in the celebrations, there are still pride events that will be happening in Wellington over the next few weeks, as well as Christchurch, Dunedin and Queenstown. Yeah.

IRN: 1202
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_2018_fiona_mcnamara.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004506
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089800
TITLE: Fiona McNamara (Sexual Abuse Prevention Network) - Out in the Park (2018)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Fiona McNamara
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Fiona McNamara; InsideOUT Kōaro; Out in the Park (Wellington); Rainbow Youth; Rape Crisis; Sexual Abuse Prevention Network; Waitangi Park; Wellington; Wellington Rape Crisis; education; gender diverse; marginalisation; marginalised communities; power; prevention; queer; school; sexual abuse; sexual violence; sexuality; statistics; trans; transgender; visibility
DATE: 24 February 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Waitangi Park, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Fiona McNamara talks about the Sexual Abuse Prevention Network.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So, um, I'm here with sexual abuse prevention network, and we're sharing a story with Wellington rape crisis. So we're two agencies that work collaboratively together. Um and, um, sexual abuse prevention network does work around preventing sexual violence. So we do a lot of consent education in schools, um, educating about healthy relationships and unhealthy relationship ships. And what abuse is what it looks like, How you can intervene, Um, and how you can support someone if they do experience sexual violence and Wellington [00:00:30] rape crisis works with people who have experienced sexual abuse in their friends, family and whanau. Do you have any specific workshops or policies around Rainbow LGBTI communities? Yes. So at sexual abuse prevention network in our education programmes, we talk a lot about gender and sexuality diversity. So we see that as really important as part of the way to prevent sexual violence. Queer communities experience really high rates of sexual violence higher than other communities, [00:01:00] and which is a really awful shocking thing. And, um so we see it as really important to educate people about diverse genders and sexualities, um, have a greater awareness and understanding. And, um yeah, and that's sort of part of that picture of preventing sexual violence and having a sort of happier, healthier society as a whole. Yeah. So you're saying that there are higher rates. Do you know why that is? I don't know why that is, um, specifically, but I sort of have some ideas around [00:01:30] that, I guess I think that, um, sexual abuse is often about power. And so I think that people, if there are, um, minority groups that often people can take that opportunity to abuse someone by, um, if a group is already marginalised or, um, sort of seen, Yeah, is seen as other then that can lead to, um, the unhealthy power dynamics that can lead to unhealthy relationships and abuse. Um, yeah, I think also, there's been less sort of research and understanding [00:02:00] around the dynamics of sexual violence within queer relationships and queer communities. And there's much more of an analysis and more research around, um, relationships where men abuse women. So, um, I think it's an area that definitely needs a lot more, um, research and understanding. Yeah. Are you aware of any, um, projects coming up that kind of will address that, um, there are there are bits and pieces of work happening. Um, I can't think of something off the top of my head. Um, but definitely [00:02:30] a lot of the organisations that work in rainbow communities, um, like rainbow youth inside out. Um, and lots of com groups like that do do work aro around this area and collaborate with agencies like ours as well. I just find it amazing to think that what What would happen if some something like Rainbow Youth or inside out weren't there? Because, I mean, how how how would you get to those communities? I think, um, we do a lot of work like in schools. So we're working in mainstream communities and being really aware that there are, of course, LGBT Q I identifying [00:03:00] people within those groups, um, and definitely like being able to talk to groups like inside out, um, Rainbow Youth and network with those groups is a really great way to be able to reach communities. Um, we have in the past run workshops specifically with those groups or collaborated with them, or they've helped bring people along. Um, and so that is yeah. I think those groups are, like, incredibly valuable in terms of, um, bringing communities together and people having a place to go and, you know, friends and people to talk to about shared [00:03:30] experiences. Um, but also, yeah, so that there's They also hold a lot of expertise within those communities as well. So that's really valuable to feed into the work that we do. Yeah. Why is it important to to be out here today? Um, I think it's really important still to raise people's awareness of the issue of sexual abuse. Um, in all communities, Um, but including in LGBT Q I communities, I think, um, it's still quite poorly understood as an issue, and also, people often don't realise [00:04:00] quite how widespread it is. So actually, we are still at a stage where we do need to increase the visibility of that issue, Um, and make people aware that it does actually happen and that it happens a lot. Um, I mean, the stats in New Zealand are really, really high. So, um, that some of the research we have shows that it's estimated one in four women, one in 6 to 10 men and one in two trans people will experience sexual abuse in their lifetime. Um, which is, of course, um really [00:04:30] high, far too high in any of those stats, but particularly the Trans Stat is like, really shocking. Um, and so I think a lot of people aren't aware of that. So, actually, just sort of being out here and letting people know that, um, it's an issue of being able to talk about it and let people know that they can come and have a chat with us. Um, there are support services available. If if that's something that that's a road they want to go down. Um, and also that there is education, and there's hope for prevention because it is absolutely preventable. Yeah, that, um, transgender [00:05:00] stat is shocking. Yeah, really Appallingly high stat. Um, yeah. I find that one incredibly shocking to hear. Yeah. Yeah. So on a personal note, what is it like for you being here today at out in the park? Um, I'm really enjoying it. It's really it's a really nice event. Um, I think something I really enjoy doing this work is like coming to events like this that are like a festival and a positive because, you know, it's easy to kind of feel really bad [00:05:30] and down when you're working on a really serious and awful topic. Um, but coming here is great and seeing a celebration that is also a really important part of the prevention picture. Um, increasing visibility for LGBT Q I people and celebrating that is so important in terms of getting rid of those things I was talking about before with sort of marginalisation and, um, that kind of thing sort of normalising, diverse genders and sexualities Bringing them together and celebrating them is really important. Yeah, you home.

IRN: 1201
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_2018_fiona_mcgregor.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004505
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089799
TITLE: Fiona McGregor (Wellington City Libraries) - Out in the Park (2018)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Fiona McGregor
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Audre Lorde; Christopher Isherwood; Fiona McGregor; Gertrude Stein; James Baldwin; Michel Foucault; Oscar Wilde; Out in the Park (Wellington); Patricia Highsmith; Sappho; Virginia Woolf; Vita Sackville-West; Waitangi Park; Wellington; Wellington City Council; Wellington City Library; William S. Burroughs; badges; book bike (Wellington City Libraries); ebook; language; library; lover; outing; rainbow; research
DATE: 24 February 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Waitangi Park, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Fiona McGregor talks about the Wellington City Libraries stall at Out in the Park.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm here today with, uh, Wellington City libraries, which is part of Wellington City Council. And we're really kind of showing the talking to the community about, um, our, uh, ebooks that you can download, but also some of the other services that you can use for free with your library card. And I What we've found in the last three years of being here at out in the park is that, um a lot of people don't know that they that we have eBooks for download and other types of services, but particularly LGBTI Q A books as well. So [00:00:30] as somebody who spends their day, um, putting a lot of these services together for the online community. Um, it's actually really thrilling to come here and be able to talk to people and tell them about it in person and did. I mean, there's so many people around your your store. That's right. I must admit that we do have free badges of literary icons and people do really like that. So that's really neat. Yeah, and it looks like some have already kind of like I was going to say, sold out. But no, they have gone Yes, The first one to go was Sao. So [00:01:00] more Saffo next year, obviously. And more Gertrude Stein. So but, um but yeah. No, we, uh we bring along the book bike as well, which is really neat. Um and so, um, it just gives us an opportunity to kind of share what we have with the community, and and, um yeah, take part in a really thrilling day. So, yeah. Take me through some of the literary queer icons. Yeah. Um, yeah. We have Virginia Wolf who? Somebody asked me before whether she wrote thrillers. And I said, um, no, um And, um so [00:01:30] And who is her special friend? And James Baldwin, William Burroughs and Patricia Highsmith, of course. And Audrey Lord Christopher Isherwood, Michelle Foca and sign Oscar Wilde. And, of course, we made extra Oscar Wilde this year because last year we ran out of him really fast. So and, um, yeah, as I said, O as well. So no, we love We love bringing these badges here, and we've also got little rainbow ones [00:02:00] with our library icon on them as well. So yeah. Now I'm really interested in how you actually talk about, uh relationships that happened back in history. But you don't know whether they were lesbian or gay or putting these, um, current constructs on their relationships. How do you navigate that? Oh, that's a good point, actually. Um, I guess we just, uh, do some research. Make sure that there is some validation to choosing these people. Obviously, we use copyright free images as well for our badges. [00:02:30] Um and, uh, yeah, we we certainly don't out anybody. We and they, they generally have been, uh, if we do put them on a badge, they've been there for a number of years. Yeah, and they do have a have a connection to the LGBTI Q community. Yeah. You talking about somebody's special friend, you know? Do you Do you say special friend, or do you say lover? Do you say partner? Well, that's very true. Yeah, this is the first year that we've had Vita. So, um yeah, she's she's more of [00:03:00] a fringe person. I think. Um, although the badge is really lovely, we haven't given away so many of hers, so But no, I would I would say lover, but, um I I know that other people have a different view of that. Yeah, Yeah. On a personal note, Um, what is it like for you being here on out in the park or out in the park? Oh, I love being here, Out in the park. I mean, this is I've been coming here for a number of years, um, as part of another community group as well. But I guess just being here in [00:03:30] the community and seeing many young people as well engaging in our community is is really fantastic. And just seeing the breadth of the community too, is, um, all the different Um uh, flavours for want of another term of of our broader community. So and everybody is just such a fun feeling. Yeah, yeah.

IRN: 1200
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_2018_des_and_john.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004504
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089798
TITLE: Des Smith and John Jolliff - Out in the Park (2018)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Des Smith; John Jolliff
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Cees Kooge; Dana de Milo; Des Smith; Fran Wilde; Grain of Salt; John Jolliff; John McKay; Lesbian and Gay Fair; Out in the Park (Wellington); Salvation Army; Shelley Te Waiariki Howard; St Vincent de Paul Society (Wellington); Victoria Club; Virginia Parker-Bowles; Waitangi Park; Wellington; conservation; homosexual law reform; police; vigilance; visibility
DATE: 24 February 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Waitangi Park, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Des and John talk about Out in the Park and reflect on how it all started back in 1986.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So was, uh, dear and John Des and John. Well, now you've got a long history with this fear, don't you? I have very long history seeing me. I started up with two others in 1986 before homosexual law reform was passed. And then, uh, the following year, I continued on my own and ran it for 10 years. The joy was it was a fair for a fair law. That was how it was promoted and happened since we've had some fair laws. So what, this? Did you ever think it would be [00:00:30] around 32 years after after you had formed it? No, I didn't think about that. But all I know that is, I It worked well, and I That's why I kept that up for 10 years. But then it was the threat of of divorce if I read another one that after 10 years, Yeah, but because in those days would take about three months off work to organise it. Yeah, and that meant no income. That was starving. [00:01:00] So when you look around today, um, can you describe for me What? What, What we're seeing? Yeah, it's just that a lot of people and the diversity of the people, the colour and also the noise and and and lots of people to wave out to. But we know which is great. And yeah, it's it's just changed. And a lot of young people and, uh, and so many more people from when we first started. So that was great 11 [00:01:30] of the joys is that, uh, there are people here who would have nothing to do with this in 1986. I mean, you have got ST Vincent de Paul running a store, and Vinnie would not even take a poster in Newtown for the fairs. Yeah, and of course, we all know the history of the Salvation Army, and I'm still not likely to buy anything off their store. I have to admit that, uh, I still feel a little bit. Uh uh. I think my he is sort of get a raise or whatever, but [00:02:00] anyway, when I do see the religious groups which gave us such a hard time, so anyway. But that's in the past. Let's go forward well, and it's good to see that there's there's real energy. It it seems I've just visited a couple of the stalls. There seems to be a real energy for change, for making things more inclusive and more accepting that that's true. And and this is it And the visibility is the importance. And people say, Why do you need a gay lesbian [00:02:30] pride march? Why do you need a fair if we don't? We're not visible. We get lost from everyone else and therefore homophobia will increase and racism and all those things that we don't want in our society. So, yeah, be out. Be proud Picking up on Desi's Point. I've never forgotten Fran Wild during law reform, so there are two vs. You need to remember visibility and vigilance because there are people who still want to turn back the clock. And as Des is, if [00:03:00] we're not visible, they might just get an edge in and sort of change political views. It's been quite a sad year for the Wellington kind of rainbow LGBTI communities with a number of people passing away people like, you know, Donna de Milo and Shelley and, um, Virginia case. And yes, yes. Do you have any memories that you want to share? Well with Dana? I mean, Dana to us is magic or was magic. She was amazing because [00:03:30] a person who is transgender, who stood up and if you know about her history and the way the cops treated her way back and took her to the police station and made a strip off to put men's clothing on. And I mean, that would not happen now. I mean, anything like that happening now would just hit the headlines. And so yeah, and I remember Case and, uh, John Mackay, people like that who were so involved with the Victoria Club [00:04:00] and also the grain assault, the restaurant they ran. And yeah, it's, uh yeah, but I suppose now nearly 80 that, uh, it won't be long before we'll be talked about hopefully Or maybe we'll be forgotten silently fade away. I don't believe that you'll be forgotten or silently fade away, just trying to get that feeling. But what I but most [00:04:30] of my energies now, I just feel very comfortable that the gay community is out there. So most of my energies now with conservation and I often said, uh, if it weren't through the bigots and of homophobia, conservation would have gained far more because that's where my first lover has been involved with restoration of our forests and also of educating people on how to look after the Earth. And [00:05:00] let's hope we look after the people. They are on the earth and we look after the Earth. So that's where my energy is these days. I don't think I can really add to that except go back to your comment about Donna. I think Donna was absolutely incredible. She had a terrible time and she didn't seem to harbour any bitterness. And she had a charm and an energy, and it was just a sheer delight. And I shall miss her very much if somebody [00:05:30] can't attend today or can't attend the other pride events, for whatever reason. What what kind of message would you like to give them? Just, uh, be out. Be proud and just remember that, uh, it's a good idea to try and support the gay community events because that way we are we are out and and that for those who can't attend for other reasons or are still [00:06:00] hiding in the closet, just think about who you are. Feel OK and comfortable with who you are. and then you can go forth in life and enjoy it. Have fun, I. I would endorse that. I would say it's very important to be out if you possibly can. But if you can't enjoy life and there's nothing to stop you from coming to a gay fair because you don't have to be gay to do so. This is a community event, a broader community [00:06:30] event, and that's one of the very important things that has happened. It's not an isolated clique which is healthy or a fair. We're part of the community, their own good on us.

IRN: 1199
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_2018_david_do.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004503
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089797
TITLE: David Do (New Zealand Labour Party) - Out in the Park (2018)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: David Do
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Big Gay Out (Auckland); David Do; Gisborne; Grant Robertson; Louisa Wall; New Zealand Labour Party; Out in the Park (Wellington); Palmerston North; Wairarapa; Waitangi Park; Wellington; adoption; government; health care; politics; pride; school; volunteer
DATE: 24 February 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Waitangi Park, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast David Do talks about the New Zealand Labour Party stall at Out in the Park.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: We're currently at out in the park. It's a sunny day with just a light wind. So it's a very nice day. And I'm part of the labour stall, uh, in the middle of the park, surrounded by stores and lots of people and different colours and so forth. So we're here to, uh, promote the Labour Party, give people a chance to sign up to what we're up to, uh, and just give away stickers and, um, yeah, just be positive. So, um, a big change has happened since last out in the park, which is that labour is now [00:00:30] in government. Um, what does that mean for rainbow LGBTI communities? I think having a labour led government means we have a much greater chance to make people's lives better. A lot of our policies are really grounded in what the community has said they want and need so better health care, better education, improving the workplace, and many other things as well. Um, one of the other things is just the tone of government being optimistic for the country and being supportive of people being more enabling, being relentlessly [00:01:00] proud of the community. And labour has always been quite an ally of the community. I would say over the past 30 years we've passed laws that have made people's lives better. And when we've been in government and had a chance to carry out policies, we've made things better for people. So that's why we're here. To promote labour just to be here. People have been grabbing all our stickers, colourful stickers. So we just want to keep that going. We also have now, um, some pretty high ranking, um, out [00:01:30] members of parliament. So I'm thinking of Lassa Wall. I'm thinking also of Grant Robertson being the the finance Minister. What impact do you think that will have on, um, the the the government and what legislation goes through? I'm hopeful that having uh, rainbow MP S amongst the labour cabinet and government will mean that, um, policies that affect all New Zealanders get implemented, but also to make sure that the Rainbow Policies that we campaigned about in the election also [00:02:00] become part of the mix and actually get carried out. Um, I guess there is always a balance between MPs being quite busy with there being a minister and a main portfolio versus also giving attention to particular communities. Um, but I think I'm hopeful we can actually achieve that right balance and just start making progress on most fronts. It won't always come immediately. Change never happens immediately necessarily. But I would say from a Labour [00:02:30] Volunteers point of view, I'm much more hopeful we can go in the right direction, but it will take a bit of time. Um, I think I think it's up to all of us, not just people inside the Labour Party, but also people just in the community to keep raising the issues that are important to them. For example, uh, making sure that healthcare is fully inclusive of transgender people, uh, adoption laws, safer schools. I think it's more just to keep raising that so that the government can hear that that that's what we are concerned [00:03:00] about it and actually act on it. So our job is certainly not done just because our party is in government. We need to make sure our policies are carried out, so I'd encourage you know, everyone just to keep raising their voice. Um, just in it just it's just a general principle, really, of what a government should be doing for its citizens, including Rainbow Citizens on a personal level. What does, uh, being out in the park mean to you? Yeah, I'm sort of comparing my outland and park experience this time with, I think last year or the year before. I mean, Outland and Park [00:03:30] is so much bigger than it was, but it has also managed to keep that happy, relaxed, positive feel. I've We've just had huge positively today in a relaxed way. So it's, you know, there's lots of music, lots of people milling around, lots of families, lots of same sex couples. I mean to me, From my point of view, it's far more relaxed and positive than ever before. Um, I think being in the park that it's a lot more space helps with that. And [00:04:00] maybe it's just the climate. I mean, it's possible, you know, having a new government and the tone from the top actually really matters with political leadership. That might help a bit of that. Perhaps, um so yeah, I mean, I'm hopeful that, you know, when we have out in the park next year in 2019, we'll still be feeling the same way because we would have made some progress on a number of things. And just finally, if somebody couldn't have attended here today, for whatever reason, uh, do you have any message for them? [00:04:30] If you can come to Wellington to come down for the day or the weekend, we've had a actually, at the store. We've had a number of, uh, school students from who have come down and even a person from Gisborne and a person from Palmerston North who've come by the stall and got in a sticker. Um, so I'd encourage people to come down for the weekend because it really will be. It's It's just such a nice feeling and I I mean, I mean, another point from a personal point of view is, um when I was in Auckland and [00:05:00] I went to my first big gay out and this was maybe 10 years ago, I actually felt like overwhelmed at first because I hadn't seen so many queer people all together, sort of relatively like, just in a happy, relaxed atmosphere. Uh, but then I warmed up to it and really got into it, and that's what I encourage one of the people at our store. They just just be in it for a while and you warm up and really enjoy it. Um, because it's really important. We have spaces like this as well as ensuring that all the organisations that play a [00:05:30] part in ensuring this freedom and progress are here to to, you know, promote and and represent themselves to people too. So, um do come down for the weekend. Wellington is a nice place to go.

IRN: 1198
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_2018_craig_hutson.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004502
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089796
TITLE: Craig Hutson - Out in the Park (2018)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Craig Hutson
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Christianity; Craig Hutson; Criminal Records (Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences) Act 2018; Faith Communities United in Love; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Intersex Youth Aotearoa; Out in the Park (Wellington); Salvation Army; St Andrew's on the Terrace; St Peter's church; Waitangi Park; Wellington; acceptance; church; closet; closeted; education; expungement; faith; family; fundraising; gender identity; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; isolation; parents; petition; petition on historic convictions; pride; salvationist; visibility
DATE: 24 February 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Waitangi Park, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Craig Hutson talks about being part of the Salvation Army and also being part of the Faith Communities United in Love stall at Out in the Park.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um, so we're at the faith communities United Love store. Um, we're made up of a group of, um, people, LGBTI, allies, friends, family, um, from a number of different faith groups and just here to, um, sort of spread the message of love, but also, um, challenge some of the, um, paths within different faith communities that, um, are anti LGBTI, um or, [00:00:30] you know, a bit convoluted or on a journey. So So So which faith communities are you Are you representing here today? Um, so we've got, um, Saint Andrews on the terrace. We've got Saint Peter's. We've got, um, a number of people from the Salvation Army. Um, which is on a bit of a path, um, of of conversation and change. And so we're representing ourselves as, um, individual salvation iss, who are sort of doing work to, um, [00:01:00] challenge some of those, um, some of the views that, um, in the past have not necessarily been in line with affirming the LGBTI community. So you're a salvation yourself. I'm a salvation. So how how do you feel within that? Within that space? I mean, because, as you say, I mean, you know, you go back 30 years, and it was pretty anti, I suppose. In terms of my personal story, it's, um it was a very it was a very hard road, to be honest. And, um, I came out about five years [00:01:30] ago, um, in the closet pretty much completely for that period of time. Very isolated. Um, and the last five years has really been a journey of, um I guess reconnecting with family, um, affirming myself, um, and trying to bring those two parts together. Um, because I guess, um, there is often a view that being a Christian and being gay or, um, LGBTI is [00:02:00] not something that can be together. Um, and definitely, um, salvation and G BT I, um, and trying to sort of navigate a little bit of the fact that there was, um, some of the things that happened during the 1986 law reform. Um, yeah, navigate that, um, myself, um, often feeling isolated by that, um, but also, yeah, just working towards, um, continually having conversations and, um, trying to [00:02:30] educate people within the Salvation Army. Um, around, you know, being LGBTI. And do you think it is changing? I do. It's just um it's one of those things that I've had to have those points where you have to show a bit of patience, you know? And I think after, I mean, I was in the closet for probably 33 from birth, you know, 33 years, Um, And when you've been in that space for that period of time, there is this real [00:03:00] desire to sort of like, we've got to see this change. Um, and yeah, there has to have I've had to sort of show, I suppose a bit of grace and understand. Um I mean, I myself had to sort of work on a lot of my views and challenge, um, internal internalised homophobia, and, um, you know, my ideas on on gender identity. Um, And so yeah, I, I guess it. This is the thing [00:03:30] that, um, visibility is important. Um, I've been really lucky to have gained almost sort of 99%. Um, in my coming out experience, 99% positive. Um, people affirmed me people. Um, my parents both told me they're so proud. Um and yeah, I suppose it just is that thing. We we keep being visible. We we keep having those conversations [00:04:00] and, um, bit by bit. So you know, when people are confronted with it, Well, we've got people who we love that are in our community. Um, it organically kind of creates that change. So, um, it's still there. There's a way to go, but we are working on it. So So what is it like for you personally today to be here, really visible at out in the park? Um, and also being a salvation. Um, well, let's say last year was the first year that we, um we managed to kind of get the blessing [00:04:30] from, um, some of the senior leadership within the Salvation Army to actually wear our red shield. Um, and I think for me, it was one of those, um, I was actually we got the blessing so we can wear it. It's just some of the knowledge that, um you know, I think some people can potentially see it as offensive, Um, because of what happened in 1986. Um, and potentially because of some of the ongoing stuff. Um, so I think there's a [00:05:00] little bit. Last year there was a bit of hesitancy. I had to kind of, um, dig deep a bit and just affirm, um, who I am and kind of know that for me. It's, uh I'm about everyone feeling good. You know, I'm about affirming same sex relationships. I'm about affirming people's gender identity. Um, actually, at the store today with fund raising, Um, as part of our, um, baking, we've got a jar for a half of the intersex, um, youth. Um, so I I'm all about [00:05:30] that, um And I think this year there's a you know, I jumped that hurdle, um, last year. And yeah, it really is just like I'm here. I know who I am. Um, and the only way he's kind of forward. Um, yeah, and it's really nice to see that you're you're creating a space where you're opening up conversations where people can actually come and talk to you and say, Well, you know, this is maybe what happened and and actually have a dialogue with you, Definitely. And, um, it's quite good. Um I mean, I I've probably been involved [00:06:00] in a lot of the logistics this time, so I haven't had too many conversations, but definitely last year it was really good to um, I think often when we've had conflict, uh, people can get very entrenched in opposing sort of, um, places and views. And, um, I went to the the 30 year anniversary of the law reform. Um, and yeah, again, sort of a bit of that nervousness around like, Oh, you know, Salvation Army. Really, [00:06:30] Um, has a little bit of a people. People have an axe to grind, and rightly so, um, I was still relatively new to being out and still actually working on, um, because it's not just that one. Like, you know, some people it is like, Hey, for me, it's definitely been getting comfortable As I become more open, become more authentic with who I am, um, deal with the the sort of, um, that kind of dynamic that that creates around you. Um and [00:07:00] yeah, I suppose, Um, yeah, it is that thing. There's these often these entrenched, opposing views, and and And you can start to lose what? The truth is behind that, um, and there can be these very blinkering comments, um, and say the Salvation Army side there can be this like, Oh, this is, um this is what it is. to be LGBTI or we've decided all this stuff. And, um, I noticed that the, um yeah, the anniversary of the law reform. Sometimes there are these comments Where, [00:07:30] um, with the Salvation Army. Uh, they were very blinding, and there's truth to it. But, um, you know, some of the stuff that I found out recently was that, um the petition was started by another church, and it's the Salvation Army that did come behind and endorse it, but in that there was actually, um, we have the, um, territorial leader, Um, and, uh, with some of his members around him, they had decided [00:08:00] Oh, we will endorse the petition. Um, one of his offs siders. Um, actually said, I don't think that's something we really want to do. I think that that will create what it eventually did. A lot of damage. Um, and he actually sent through to, um, the international headquarters. You know, this is what's happening here. What do you recommend? I. I really feel that we shouldn't be endorsing this petition. I don't think that it's something that, um is going to be good for us and definitely not good for [00:08:30] just people within our, um, you know, within New Zealand. And, um, yeah, because I suppose back then it was just letters and telephones it did take, um, by the time the response came back, the local leadership in New Zealand had already decided, Um, you know, this is this is what we're doing and and endorsed it. Um, and and, you know, we ended up as we did. Um, but it's just this point in my coming out just learning, um, things that, you know, There's [00:09:00] a lot of salvation that didn't agree with it at the time. Um, And for me personally, um, it's quite strange because I guess, you know, you have a lot of stuff that put self doubt into you, Um, made you, like, what are people going to think if they know that I'm gay? Um, and, uh, interestingly, my my dad's the national director of the, um, social policy and parliamentary unit for the Salvation Army. Um, and he was writing stuff on, um, you know, challenging [00:09:30] some of the views on homosexuality before I came out. Um, and so his motivation, you could say, Oh, his motivation. He's got a gay son. Well, it wasn't actually, um, that's become more of a motivation now that he knows. But, um, yeah, right. Probably from the time of the law reform. You know, someone asked him, Would you like to sign this petition? And he said, Oh, no, no. Actually, I don't know if I really agree with it. Um, so he's He's been a, um you know, big [00:10:00] advocate for me. Um, and, uh, recently, um, we, uh, as part of the faith community stores, um, a number of the out in the parks. We, um, had a petition here for the, um, retrospective pardoning of gay men. Um, prior to the law reform, um, and, you know, recently that was submitted, and that's sort of going through the process. Um, but just last year, the Salvation Army, um, social policy and parliamentary [00:10:30] unit put forward a submission to, um, support the expungement of the historic convictions. So there is change kind of happening. What is it personally like for you to be here on a on a day like today? Um, yeah, it's that thing. I guess it's a journey. It's been a journey, I think. When I first turned up to some of the um, pride events. Yeah, there was a lot of the apprehension. There's like, there's those points like, Oh, my gosh. Like what? What if people [00:11:00] see me here, you know, and yeah, I mean, part of it is just like, Well, you've got to be who you are. Um, sometimes, depending on on you know what you've been through That does take a bit of time to To to get there. Um but I'd say this year definitely is the first year that I just am in that place where it's like, I am who I am And all the parts of Of what? Banks? Me up as a person, um, continually just come together. And I get that harmony I. I, um [00:11:30] Yeah, you're just able to sort of be you in all the different ways, so yeah.

IRN: 1197
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_2018_charlotte_gamble_stott_anz.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004501
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089795
TITLE: Charlotte Gamble-Stott (ANZ) - Out in the Park (2018)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Charlotte Gamble-Stott
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; ANZ Bank New Zealand; Aotearoa New Zealand; Charlotte Gamble-Stott; Hold Tight (campaign); Out in the Park (Wellington); Waitangi Park; Wellington; diversity; employment; love; pride; pronouns; public display of affection (PDA); support; trans; transgender; transition
DATE: 24 February 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Waitangi Park, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Charlotte Gamble-Stott talks about the Hold Tight campaign and working at ANZ.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So we're currently at, uh, out in the park. Uh, I see a lot of people that are really happy shaking hands. Uh, it's all very cute. The atmosphere is really light. So it's nice and just everyone's coming together and just kind of sharing what they love. And it just so happens that they love each other. And who are you with today? Charlotte? Uh, so I'm with my workplace a NZ. And my hat's just flown off. Um, so we're basically here just offering free cash out for everyone. We've got some, um, floor mats. We've got some whole tight wrist bands because there's been a really big campaign we've been pushing at the moment. [00:00:30] Um, so we're basically just here supporting all the pride people and just making sure that they know that their banks behind them as well. So tell me about the whole tight campaign. What is that? Um so without crying, I don't know if I could, but the whole tight campaign is basically, uh, a big campaign. The a NC has been running across the Tasman where most people have felt that if they've been holding hands in public that they've been silently judged or even sometimes forcefully judged. So what we are trying to say is that hold tight because if you [00:01:00] keep holding, everyone is going to be supporting you. There are some people that unfortunately, are not going to change, and they are going to view you and judge you. But we are behind you, and so is everyone else. So that's what the whole tight campaign is about. So has that ever happened to yourself personally in terms of being judged by holding hands? I'm gonna be honest. Uh, it's never happened at work. My work is lovely. Um, and it's never happened outside because I feel like while maybe not as a whole Wellington is just a wonderful place to be for anyone. Pride from my perspective. So what does a NZ [00:01:30] like to work for in terms of, um, kind of rainbow LGBTI communities? Um, well, honestly, the fact that we're here today kind of speaks volumes about what the A NZ will support and the fact that they've got all these internal, um things to support LGBT Q. As soon as I came out as trans gender, I got so many emails from my bosses and their bosses saying, Hey, um, if you ever need any support, I even had one of my like, higher up bosses in where I work Come around and be like, Hey, you know, if you're struggling or anything like that, come to me directly. And I was honestly quite surprised and scared because that's my boss's [00:02:00] boss's boss. And I'm like, Oh, thanks. So, um honestly, a NZ is wonderful to work for and without seeming completely self serving, Um, I honestly love working for them whether or not I am pride. So what was it like kind of receiving those emails? Because I I mean, were you expecting that? No. I was kind of expecting it to just be like under the table, like, just swept under the carpet like, Oh, OK, that's cool. That doesn't really matter. Um, but it was kind of more than that. It was kind of like, OK, you've shown the strength because the reason I did [00:02:30] come out was, uh, there was a big post on our little internal system, saying, um, the whole tight campaigns going on. Have you ever felt discouraged? Have you ever felt scared? How did you come out tell, you know, just share your experiences and this is internal, So this is not external at all. Um And so there were a lot of people that were just sharing their experiences, and I decided to do the same. And that's basically how I came out to my whole workplace is just explaining because I didn't think that it would go to everyone, but everyone has seen it. And everyone, um, you know, my colleagues started going Oh, OK, so this is what you would like to be [00:03:00] referred to. Um and, you know, the bosses came around and said, Hey, you know, we accept you. That's perfectly fine. If you need any sort of help with your transition, let me know. So it was honestly quite surprising, but in a very, very good way. So what does a day like today mean for you? Honestly, it doesn't really mean that much to myself as a whole, just because of all the support I've always had. But it means that I can actually come here and show that I am supportive of other people, like I do that [00:03:30] on a daily basis. But this is just more so to say, Here I am here. This is me and I'm also seeing you as you are and you are accepted by myself and so many other people. So I'm just here to basically get in the culture. Make sure that everyone understands that they are loved. And if I can help in any way, shape or form with doing that love, then that's perfectly fine. What would you say to somebody that maybe can't be here today? For whatever reason, I would say you're still loved. Even though you can't make it to the physical location. You are still here in spirit and we still all [00:04:00] love you. And thank you so much for being yourself.

IRN: 1196
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_2018_caitlin.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004500
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089794
TITLE: Caitlin (Scouts New Zealand) - Out in the Park (2018)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Out in the Park (Wellington); Queen's Scout Award; Scouts New Zealand; Waitangi Park; Wellington; inclusion; inclusive space; leadership; scouts; sport; volunteer; youth
DATE: 24 February 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Waitangi Park, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Caitlin talks about Scouts New Zealand involvement in Out in the Park.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So we are at out in the park, Wellington, which is very exciting. And, uh, I am here with scouts. New Zealand. We've been here, uh, a couple of times. Officially, we've been to, um, out in the park twice officially, But we've also been out wearing our scarves and uniforms to various pride parades across the country and across the world. Four years. So yeah. So what prompted the change a couple of years ago to have scouts here, mostly just someone organising it. We've always been an inclusive [00:00:30] movement. We've always been about making sure that everyone knows about us, but we're just getting a little bit better at showing it. Now. Um, we've had an inclusive, diverse movement for a very, very long time. We've, um we are completely open to everyone. Um, but yeah, just having someone to organise it because we're all volunteers. It's a volunteer movement. So getting someone who actually has the time to organise it can be challenging in between all of our other scouting commitments, So yeah. So can you run through what benefits for LGBTI rainbow? [00:01:00] Uh, youth, Uh, scouts offer, I think for me, um, as a member of the community. What mattered most to me was the fact that it is such an inclusive space where you can be absolutely whoever you are today. It doesn't matter who you were yesterday or who you're going to be tomorrow we accept you and love you for who you are now. And, um, you are welcome to to come and experiment with with who you are, which is great for for our younger members, um, figuring themselves out and there is no judgement at all. We are [00:01:30] happy to talk. All of the leaders are always happy to talk about whatever is going on with our young people. And we really care about our young people. So it's a great space for development regardless of which of the acronym you fit into, um and yeah, we're just all about making sure that everyone can develop at their own pace and learn by doing and learn by making awesome choices. And so is that inclusive of, uh so for all the leaders as well, of course. Yes, absolutely. Definitely. We we welcome leaders, [00:02:00] um, anywhere and everywhere. We actually we've got weight lists and a lot of our groups. Um, there are kids who really want to join scouting. But, um, we sometimes do struggle with leaders. So, yes, leaders of all types, shapes and sizes, we're all about it. So what for you is the best part about scouts? I think it's such a great way to learn in a fun context. So we do a lot of different projects, and actually, I've had the the privilege of, um, of sitting on what we call, um, Queen Scout is a a big [00:02:30] award. And what part of that is a big conversation that we have with the the people who are completing it? And you get to ask them about their journey and what they've learned. And every single one is different. It's all a massive learning experience, and often they only realise, right at the end how much they've learned almost by accident, just through doing activities through organising camps, through going tramping Um, through we did. We did a chocolate night recently where we literally just melted chocolate and shoved things in and made awesome [00:03:00] gifts to give to parents and friends at Easter time or wherever, wherever you like. So and and people don't realise how much they're learning until they get to the end and go. Actually, I learned how to organise. I learned how to lead a team. I learned how to source various things from from suppliers. And suddenly you end up with a 17 year old who can run an event for 300 people. Um, no sweat, because they've done it before. So how is how is this still being received today? I think it's going really well. We've had so much, um, so many people [00:03:30] coming over and saying hi and asking what we're about. I think there's a lot of people who kind of know that scouts exists, but they potentially just didn't really know where to start about getting their kids involved. I think in New Zealand we're really good about getting kids involved sports, but there's so much more. There's so many more opportunities for what we call informal, uh, education, and that's what we're all about. So, yeah, we've had a lot of people getting getting interested coming along, Um, a lot of people asking about becoming leaders, which is very exciting and for you personally, [00:04:00] what does it mean to be here today? I love coming to all of these events because it's so incredible being surrounded by, uh, a group of people who just feel so much love for the community around them. It's such a close community, and I love that no matter who you are, you're you're at home here, you're accepted and that's I mean, that's scouting for me as well, and I just love seeing it in a wider community context.

IRN: 1195
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_2018_adam_and_chaz.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004499
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089793
TITLE: Adam Reynolds and Chaz Harris - Out in the Park (2018)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Adam Reynolds; Chaz Harris
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Adam Reynolds; Aotearoa New Zealand; Big Gay Out (Auckland); Bo Moore; Chaz Harris; Christine Luiten; Ian McKellen; Jaimee Poipoi; Maiden Voyage (book); Out in the Park (Wellington); Promised Land (book); Teen Vogue (magazine); Waitangi Park; Wellington; buzzfeed. com; children; drawing; fairy tale; film; gay; illustrator; kickstarter. com; parents; pirate; prince; publishing; single mothers; takatāpui; upworthy. com; women; writing
DATE: 24 February 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Waitangi Park, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Adam Reynolds and Chaz Harris, co-authors of Promised Land, talk about the children's fairy tale book and the upcoming Maiden Voyage.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So we're the coauthors of Promised Land, which is in a gay fairy tale story book for Children. It's about a prince and a farm boy who meet and fall in love. When was this published? Um, we published it, Um, in. So it's Valentine's Day 26 2017. Um, it's been out for about a year now and then had lots of press, you know, like up with the team Bogue and Ian McKellen is a fan. So got an amazing [00:00:30] quote from him. Um and yeah, it was just been great. And then we recently did another Kickstarter to fund our second book. So is it the kind of reaction that you expected when you were publishing? Yeah, it was It was the reaction that we hoped we would get because we wrote the book we wrote the sort of book that we wish we had had when we were growing up and that we hope, will help a lot of Children of tomorrow and today and you know, the future. So we have had a fantastic response. We've had so [00:01:00] many people tell us, come and see us and say how much they've loved the book. how much their kids have loved the book. Some people have said they've had to read, read the book to their kids every night for two whole weeks. So it's been Yeah, a great response. And so tell me about the second book that you're working on. It's maiden voyage. So it's a female driven pirate adventure. Um, which is coming out in June. We've got a co author, Jamie Poo, Um, who identifies as [00:01:30] and Christine Luton and be Moore Are co illustrators, um, who work on both books. Yeah. So what got you inspired to actually create a book? Um, I think Well, because we're we we're writers and filmmakers. We, you know, we'd love to see this story kind of get into other media eventually. Um, but we knew that a Children's book version was something that was achievable, and we could go and Kickstarter and that. So, um yeah, we collaborated on the story [00:02:00] and then figured, Yeah, we'll we'll fund that. What's the most surprising reaction you've had to the book? Uh, it's sort of not surprising, but it was great in terms of, um, how many women contacted us. And even in the reviews that we've read online of it. They're, like, very empowering for women. And, um, it was our goal was to avoid the damsels in distress. Fairy tale trope. So that's been really great that that that was sort of the thing that we hope people would get from it. [00:02:30] But then it actually happened. Um, and then, yeah, I don't know if there's other other surprises. Single moms like single. There's two single moms in our story which we never really thought about. But we heard from three single moms who were like, I've never seen single moms represented in the Children's book. And I was like, Oh, OK, yeah. Um, and then definitely we knew that, um, representing people of colour and, you know, kind of a bit more intersectional as well. That's made a big difference. And today the reaction at out in the park. How's that been for you guys [00:03:00] really great so far? Yeah. People who have You've already got the book who are coming up and like, Oh, I just came to see See you guys and someone who had a t-shirt, um, of the book on wearing it around out in the park, which is awesome. And we I think our favourite one so far has been this little girl who came up with her mum and she sat and she read every page and then turned, turned up to her mom and nodded with a smile. And yeah, I want the book. OK, yeah, that's good. Let's go [00:03:30] on a personal note. What does it mean for you guys to be, um, out here today at out in the park? Um, it's great just being, you know, being with our community. We went up to Auckland recently and got rained out. So it's nice that it's sunny Wellington, like, played nice with the weather as well, so yeah, No, I love meeting all the people here and just being a part of this atmosphere and yeah, just It's so cool, so much fun. Everyone here it's loving themselves and being proud, and that's just the best that anyone can hope for. [00:04:00] So yeah.

IRN: 1177
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_park_2018_hikoi.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004498
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089792
TITLE: Hikoi to Out in the Park (2018)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Adrienne Girling; Chrissi Johnson; Drew Hadwen; Karen Harris; Kirsty Farrant; Steven Mawhinney
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Adrienne Girling; Aotearoa New Zealand; Chrissi Johnson; Drew Hadwen; Hikoi to Out in the Park; InsideOUT Kōaro; Karen Harris; Kirsty Farrant; Out in the Park (Wellington); Outerspaces (Wellington); Paekākāriki; Paekākāriki Pride; Post Primary Teachers Association (PPTA); Pride; Pride parade; Steven Mawhinney; Val Little; Wellington; Wellington Pride Festival (2018); Women's Movement; Youth; craftivism; knitting; moment of silence; school; support; teacher; teaching; visibility; youth; youth group
DATE: 24 February 2018
YEAR: 2018
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Audio from the hikoi to Out in the Park. The hikoi began in Civic Square and walked around Wellington's waterfront to Waitangi Park.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um, we are at the square. Um, we're here for Wellington. Um, the opening of, um out in the park. It's for the LGBT plus community to support everyone within Wellington. And, um, our young and old people can come and join. Is this the first pride event you've been to? Um, this is probably my second one in Wellington. I've [00:00:30] been to one in, Um, that was more of sort of community based around, um, they tried to set a world record, but I don't know if they achieved it or not. And was that world record was that for the the shortest pride walk? That's heaps of fun. Yeah, well, really enjoyed ourselves and stuff. Yeah. [00:01:00] So why do you think? Um, these kind of private events are important. Um, sort of for all of our rights. And, you know, everyone has rights and stuff to support them and stuff. And for you both. Is this the first pride event you've been to third for me? Yeah. And, um, yeah, we just come here to support Kayla, and, um, yeah, I'm really into, um, letting young people sort of have the freedom that they're getting nowadays. You know, It's a really good [00:01:30] thing. So, yeah, hopefully it sort of continues. You know, eventually, it'll be just, um, just part of society. It won't be something that's different, you know? Can you see that change in society? I can see that. Yeah. I think everyone's going to be the same eventually. You know, um, this is just the beginning. So, um, yeah, I see the future as a sort of a very liberated, much more open minded, You know what I mean? Can you describe, um, the kind of feeling that you get from these [00:02:00] kind of events? Um, well, it's different, but I'm quite accepting of most people. Yeah, it's quite a good thing to come to. Yeah, I'm sort of very, um I feel sort of part of it. Like part of it. You know, you just sort of feel accepted, you know? It's a nice feeling. It is. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. I like meeting different people from different cultures. And, um, yes. Fitting in with everyone within my community. [00:02:30] Um, yeah. It's good to meet other people from all over the place. And if somebody couldn't be here today for whatever reason, Um, would you have a message for them. Um, just wanna say be yourself and don't be of who you are. And stuff is, um, continue to believe in what you believe in. So what do you think the, um, the reason for holding a pride parade or walk? [00:03:00] Um, I reckon LGBT people need to know that there's other people out there and it's just a great, um it's a safe place. And it's a place where we can all come together and celebrate our differences. And so today, who are you marching with? Um, I'm marching for inside out, which is an organisation that helps LGBT youth in New Zealand. And I volunteer for them. And so, in terms of volunteering, what what kind of work do you do? Um, just [00:03:30] this month, I handled the receipts. Um, I made this beautiful sign I've helped out at, like, school events, uh, fundraisers, all sorts of things. So why is it important for groups like inside out to exist? Um, well, the organ, uh, the founders realised that there weren't enough. Um, organisations focused on LGBT youth, and that was really needed in our country. Because even though we're quite progressive, there was. There's still heaps [00:04:00] of issues and, um, inside out have slowly been combating that, but there's still ages to go, but they've been really good. What has inside out given to you? Um, every year they run the shift, which is it just feels like going home. It's like a, um, like a camp for a few days for LGBT youth. And it's just amazing. Everyone feels like family, and it feels like home. And, um, LG, uh, inside out has just helped me to exist more [00:04:30] safely and happily. That's the kind of feeling I also get from say, like, pride events as well that just kind of real sense of family. I mean, is that the kind of feeling that you get? Absolutely. That's the reason I come. So, Karen, what are we up to? Uh, so we're just at the beginning of the walk, um, starting in Civic Square, and at the moment we're just getting the flags together because we've got our we got, like, 10 flags that represent different parts of our community. So we're just trying to get the flags together so that we can take them on the walk. So these the flags will be leading [00:05:00] the parade. Yeah, probably. Um, And again, just as a way of obviously having something really visual to lead the parade, but also a way of just trying to represent our diversity. And so, yeah, there's 10 flags as representing a range of different groups. And so, yeah, they'll lead. We'll ask different people just to hold them and take them through to the park. And then we'll walk from Civic Square down into Waitangi Park to join the rest of them down there. Amazing colours people are wearing today. It's very vibrant. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it always is, but I think particularly this year, [00:05:30] um, because they've promoted it as a youth, you know, a Children and youth. Um, walk. And I just think that our Children and young people, people just always come out looking amazing and just so full of energy and vibrancy. So I think they look really coloured, But also, they just bring a different energy. I think as well. So, um, although the walk is aimed at everybody, um, we are you know, we are hoping that there's lots of young people and Children here today. If somebody can't be here today. What would be the message from you to them? Ah, so so especially for young [00:06:00] people and Children. I guess what we're hoping is is that it gives that message of, um it's OK to be who you are and also that there are plenty of other people around that you can connect in with. And I think that's one of the most important things about today is that people do get to see that there are other people that maybe they identify with, Or maybe they just get to meet some new people. But there are other people out there and so many great groups and organisations for well, for everybody, but particularly for young people and Children. I think so, Um, hopefully that's the [00:06:30] message they get is that there are things they can come and get involved with, or come and speak to people they can just come and speak to, or even just watch from afar if they're not ready to be fully in it at the moment. So, um so for people that aren't here, um I'd say Just look out and get involved when you can. Yeah, I see. Like people just being in a space where they can feel comfortable with themselves and just being truly themselves and like being proud. Just so many people being themselves and having really beautiful outfits, for one thing and [00:07:00] some a site that makes my heart really happy and kind of numerous flags. Can you tell me which flags we can see? Oh, so many. Um, we were actually just naming a few of them. But, of course, the classic rainbow Flags. So many of those, um, but even flags that get more specific. Like like lipstick, lesbian flags, gender queer flags, intersex flags, trans flags, um, asexuals flags. Yeah, Jami sexual flags. Like there's just every flag I can think of is around here. [00:07:30] And so is this the first time you you've you've marched in a pre? Um, not the first. Last year was my first, but, um, this year is my first as a confident queer. Yeah, Last year was also my first. Uh, we went together last year as well. So, um, yeah, it's really cool coming back to it. Yeah. So tell me, what was the the first time? Like, um, I felt really uplifted. It was just um, not long after I was sort of discovering sexuality and stuff, and the amount of acceptance I felt [00:08:00] was just really amazing. And it made me it really encouraged me to be myself even more. Yeah, it was a big turning point in my life. Yeah, and it felt incredibly validating. Like I felt like, Yeah, this is who I am. And I'm so comfortable here. And it was like I was kind of home, like it felt really, really comfortable. Yeah, absolutely. For sure, I do definitely reflect a lot on it. I still look at the pictures that we took last year of me, just like shyly posing with the flag. Um, and yeah, this year I get to come with my girlfriend, and [00:08:30] it's amazing. Yeah, like you. You basically said it. I'm like, I have nothing really to add for that. It just is amazing. Like, I just love it. So, what do you think? Some of the biggest issues still facing kind of rainbow queer communities are today. Um, there's still people that aren't as accepting, and I think as understanding especially, I think the trans community is really, um, underrepresented in like media and things like that. It's something that we can definitely do more for and every day, do more to recognise. [00:09:00] I mean, yeah, yeah, I agree. It's like, um, you know, I think we're getting there, But there's still a lack of representation for a lot of people who aren't, like, just like homosexual, where that I find is getting a lot more representation than people who have more. Like say what people would say complex sexualities like asexuality or demisexuality and things like that. Um And I think, yeah, just close mindedness is still an issue that, like we're still trying to break [00:09:30] the barriers of. Yeah. So if somebody couldn't be here today for whatever reason, what would be the kind of message you would want to give them? Oh, that, Um, just be yourself. Um, I guess that's just a really, like, cheesy, easy little message. But I mean, even if you look at pictures from today, know that everyone here, um, is supporting you, and everyone is definitely gonna be welcoming. Yeah, and you're not alone. Yeah. So So what do these kind of pride events mean to you? To me, it's, um [00:10:00] it's It's a whole mixture of things. I guess it's remembering where we've come from, uh, our culture ourselves And, um, just coming together and unity to to share and that pride, visibility. And, um, you know, I know we bang on about the youth, but it is It's about, you know? So you're in the this morning and then, um, what does the rest of the day hold for you? Probably some nasty sunburn hoping there will be candy floss. [00:10:30] Just catching up with people that, you know, you might only see at pride, um, or at funerals throughout the year. Or who you haven't seen in ages because they've been away. But yeah. Also checking out what community groups from all around the region are there and supporting them, who we can Just being together. One big, proud lot. If if if there was somebody that couldn't be here today, for whatever reason, you know, would you have, like, a message for them? Uh, you know? Yeah. For whatever reason. [00:11:00] Gosh, you're here. You know, if you want to be here, you're here with us, and and we're we're there with you. Prides for everybody everywhere. So, Chrissy, um can you describe for me what you can see in front of us. Oh, awesome. A great collection of, um, queer, happy and very prideful folks here. A lot of youth. It's great. Um, and I expect that we're going to get a really good pride parade here today. Have you been to any appropriate? Uh, yeah, [00:11:30] a good few. And I'm also involved in pride, which we do in, um, over labour weekend in, uh, so we'll be doing a big festival again this year. I knit pride, um, Beanies. So, uh, yeah, it's one of my one of my things now. So this is the festival up the coast where you did you break the world record for the shortest? Yes, we have the world's shortest pride parade. So we have a bit of a warm up first down the, um, down the parade, and then we get actually into [00:12:00] and we go across the crossing, which we are trying very hard this year to get our, uh, rainbow crossing in Paki. So we're going to organise a, um, a meeting and a discussion soon on that. So how long is the shortest parade parade? Actually, I can't tell you I haven't measured it. Um, but it is just our crossing. And it is quite a small street, uh, beach road. It's quite narrow, but, um, we certainly rock it. Yeah, And I heard there was a huge crowd. Uh, last year, How big was it? It [00:12:30] was a good amount of pie anyway, and plenty of people from, um, around and about. So we're hoping to grow the the festival every year, So yeah, why is it important to have, uh, festivals right throughout the country rather than just, like, say, in the main centres? Um, I think it shows that we've got, you know, queer queer folk everywhere and that we we are proud, and we are there and that we need to still actually battle homophobia, and we need to battle a lot of prejudices. So I think it's really important that actually, people, you know, get out there and and show their [00:13:00] colours. What's the kind of feeling you get from pride parades or pride events? Um, great sense of community, um, people banding together, everybody being happy, being themselves, being true to themselves. When did you start knitting? Um, rainbow beanies. Uh, I started doing the rainbow hats about two months before pride. And and so that's October. I knocked 60 out in two months. Yeah, I'm a bit of an obsessive NT, um, [00:13:30] and raise $300 for, um, outer spaces, which is, you know, the LGBTI Q, um, youth charity. So I'm doing that again. So I flog my hats off at $25 a pop. $5 from every hat goes to outer spaces. And so how long does it take you to make one? Uh, a good few hours? So I sit and watch mindless TV sometimes Or, you know, put YouTube on and, um, and do it on trains and in public spaces, because craft is a thing, too. And it's good to get those conversations [00:14:00] out there craft. So tell me more about that. How did you get into that? OK, so, um, I started knitting women's movement hats, the pink ones, um, and started doing it in public spaces because you end up with those interesting conversations and I was commuting to into the city all the time. So, um, Down Time was knitting time. And, um, a friend of mine who, uh, Val Little who is involved with the the whole PICO Pride thing and a lot of events. Um, she threw her pink one to Cindy Lauper at the Cindy Lauper concert [00:14:30] last year. So I am a craft to the stars as well. And, um, I just ended up with all my varied colours of wools last year and thought I'd not myself a pride hat. I needed my flatmate one, and I knew they'd go off in P cock. So it's become a thing. It's become a thing. It's so cool. So tell me if somebody can't be here during the the the pride or out in the square, for whatever reason, what would you say to them? Um know that there is a really great community and a really strong community. [00:15:00] Um, be you, like, just be you and and and live your life how you want to And, um, yeah, be proud. We can see lots of queer people young and older, And so I should say, young at heart, lots of rainbow flags, a little girl in a rainbow skirt and, um, lots of quite happy people. There's [00:15:30] so much here today, isn't there? Yeah, there is lots of rainbow colours. So have you. Have you done? Have you participated in a lot of pride events? Yes. I love the fear. I love the parade. I love going to the parade first and then the fair And, uh, just catching up with everybody feeling proud and you just feel really good to be part of a community. So what was the, uh, earliest pride events that you've been to 0, 100 [00:16:00] years ago? Quite a long time ago. Um, I may be young at heart, but I'm very old, but, I mean, the the the response must have changed from the public. Yes, definitely. The response has definitely changed from the public. I was involved with the, um, protests about the homosexual law reform. And, um My God, has the response changed. Tell me what it was like back then. Well, it was a pretty hard time. There was so much bigotry coming out of the woodwork. [00:16:30] It was appalling. So you have to walk past, um, Norm Jones on the corner with his table with all his awful stuff and the Salvation Army petition. It was really quite horrible. Quite yuck. Knowing what a lot of people were thinking about us, and we went on the big march. But my mother wanted to come, and I said to her, Don't come because I was afraid for her safety, but it actually was fine. And it was really empowering. And I was sorry that I told her not to come, [00:17:00] but, um, because I was proud that she wanted to come. But I Yeah, it was just that there were no guarantees that destiny Church was out there, all sorts of people. So, yeah, it was a little bit intimidating, but we won, so it was all good. It's quite amazing to think that actually, that was only 30 years ago. A huge change, really, isn't it? Yeah, it is. And I was so proud to be in glamour phones and be singing and celebrating at Parliament for the 30 [00:17:30] year anniversary. I was so proud to have been part of both. It was awesome. Is this the first, uh, or parade you've been in? No. I, um, have been in a few of them over the years. I was a secondary school teacher, and so, as a teacher, I've always felt it was really important to, um uh, walk in parades like this to be a sort of visible role model for young people. And, um, although I don't teach anymore, I now work for the secondary teachers union. So that's what brings me here this year. We've got a group [00:18:00] walking in the parade. So do you think it's changed, uh, much for, uh, rainbow LGBTI? Um, kids in in school nowadays? Um, I think there's definitely been some shifts. If I think back to, um, even when I started teaching 20 years ago, I think it was difficult for kids to be, um, lesbian or gay in schools. And that was kind of odd, you know, it was seen as a rare sort of thing. Now I think there are still a lot of challenges for, particularly our young trans people and our young people in rural [00:18:30] communities. And I'd probably say, also in, um, some of the more conservative or traditional kind of schools as well, particularly all boys schools, I think, are more challenging places for some of the young people. And and what about for, um, rainbow LGBTI Q teachers? It's been a, I think, a long journey. I know when I started teaching 20 years ago. I made a conscious decision not to be out while I was doing my teacher education because I wanted to guarantee I got a job at the end. And as soon as I had a job, I was absolutely out in the school that I was in. And I think [00:19:00] that's shifted. But, um, in my role at PPTI, I still get calls from, um, schools and teachers where teachers are having a bit of a rough time in schools. But I think it is a lot more accepting than it used to be. So But you you were obviously concerned that it might have an effect on on getting a job. Yeah, 20 years ago, definitely. I did worry about that. Um, I don't think that that issue exists in the same way now for lesbian and gay teachers. Um, and I don't know about trans teachers. There's so few of them, I guess around. Why do you think [00:19:30] pride, parades and pride festivals are important? Um, I think it's really important for, um, public visibility for people to see for non queer members of the public to see the queer community out having a good time and just, you know, being normal because we are normal. Um, but I think it's also really important for people in the community who are queer who don't feel so confident or comfortable in being out, being able to see themselves reflected. Can you describe the feeling [00:20:00] of of participating in in A In an event like this? I really enjoy it. Um, I was in Auckland last week for the, um, Pride Parade and I. I feel like a pride tourist. Um, and what I really loved about that was, uh, we were walking, um, under the teachers with pride banner there as well. And it was fantastic. The number of older people from the community who came up to us and said things like, Gosh, I wish we'd had teachers like you when we were at school. But then also all along in the along [00:20:30] road, all the young people that really cheered for the teachers, the sort of recognition that you know, teachers probably are a bit of crusty old people to them, but that actually, you know, for a lot of them they could see themselves reflected back, which was really nice. Is there something that you would say to people that actually can't attend today. For for whatever reason, Um, I think the reality is not everybody can be out and about and, um, visible in the community. And I know when I go into schools to do workshops, there are teachers who, [00:21:00] you know, slip me notes to say thank you for coming to the school. They don't feel confident enough to be out in the school. And, you know, it must be the same in communities that there must be people who don't feel confident to be out. So I guess for them, it's just really important that they know that these sorts of events are going on and that there are people in the community who are there for them. Uh, hi. Uh, my name is Steven. I'm co-chair of our Wellington, the organisation that has organised the Pride Festival this week. And we are so absolutely excited to have this, [00:21:30] uh, youth walk and community to out in the park. Uh, from here. Uh, brief history for you. This fair has been running for over 32 years. Uh, started the Newtown fair, Uh, and four or 56 years ago, it was actually run here in Civic Square and, uh, three or four years ago, they moved it to a park because it just keeps growing, and it just keeps getting better. So I want to thank each and every single one of you for coming along here. Uh, we are now at Wellington. Felt it really important to have this little, uh, walk [00:22:00] here from from the square, Uh, involving the youth, because the youth is the future. I know it's cheesy to say, but it is. And we need to make sure you guys have your place to stand and have your say. So I'm gonna pass over now to Stacey from inside out to say a few words. Hi, everyone. Uh, I'm Stacey from inside out. Um, thank you all so much for being here. I think, like you said, it's so important to have, uh, a youth walk like this because the youth are possibly the biggest part of our community. We're the ones [00:22:30] who are going to be making change in the next 2030 40 years. Um, what I was thinking we could do is have a quick minute of silence for those who've lost their lives in fighting for the rights that we have today. Because I also think it's important to acknowledge that we are so lucky to be able to have events like this without fear. And there were people before us who who still had events like this, but they were shrouded in fear. So a minute of silence, please. [00:23:00] So wonderful. Thank you so much. So [00:23:30] I think it's time to get started. Have a wonderful day. Stay safe. Stay safe. Wear sunscreen. Um, I think the sun's supposed to come out a little bit later. Hopefully, um, so have a good one. OK, what's gonna happen from here? Guys? We're gonna follow all our pride flags that we have up along the front here. Our inside our team are holding them. Uh, we're gonna lead the way up. We're going to follow the ramps the best we can. Drew and Pauline are gonna lead us, and we're going to have a great time. We want to be loud. We want to be proud. We want to have fun. We're gonna be meet, uh, wait just [00:24:00] at the entrance of Waitangi Park and and to it is going to welcome the he on to the, uh, park, and then the official ceremonies will begin. So as they as a um giving us the Kaka and, um, they are going to, uh, we're gonna walk onto the front here. Alright? Are we ready? Tang, Are you ready? 123. [00:24:30] Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Here. Here. So what's it like leading the parade? Um, a little bit daunting. A little bit daunting, but exciting nonetheless, I think. I mean, we're all young people here, and we're really excited to be [00:25:00] able to represent other young people. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Another chance. This next one, we're gonna go out of the closet and into the streets, OK? 321 and into the streets, [00:25:30] out of the closet and into the streets, out of the closet and into the streets, out of the closet and into the streets, out of the closet and into the streets, out of the closet and into the streets, Out of the closet. And enter the streets Out of the closet and into the streets. That's right. Hi. Can you describe this? Oh, my God. It's so exciting. So, people, The parade the walking parade, I guess [00:26:00] on the waterfront are coming towards us. People giving me hugs. Um, just very colourful, very lively. It's great to hear some new chants as we go along so people can really hear us and see us. Um and I'm actually quite happy to not be organising this year, so I get to stand out in front and watch the whole thing go pass. Very fun. Atmosphere. This one go. [00:26:30] 1234 Open up and close the door. 5678. Don't assume your kids are straight, I think. 5678. 123, 5678. Say 1, 10. Yeah. Thank you. [00:27:00] Next it love it. Love it. Me 1000. Yeah. [00:27:30] Everyone's a little quip here. Everyone's a little quip. Hey. Yeah, listen here. Everyone's a little quip. Hey, you listen here. Everyone's a Hey, you listen here. Everyone's a little quip. Hey, you listen here. Everyone's a little quip. Hey, everyone's a little quick. Yeah, [00:28:00] Are you? Oh.

IRN: 1173
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/papa_and_pcn.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004497
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089791
TITLE: People Against Prisons Aotearoa and the Prisoner Correspondence Network
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Kate McIntyre
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; ANZ Bank New Zealand; Canada; Department of Corrections; Emilie Rākete; Kate McIntyre; Orange Is the New Black (tv); Out in the Park (Wellington); Parliament buildings; People Against Prisons Aotearoa (formerly known as No Pride In Prisons); Pink washing; Pride Parade (Wellington); Pride parade (Auckland); Prisoner Correspondence Network; Queer liberation; Wellington; advocate; boredom; crime; disadvantage; holiday cards; illiteracy; lesbian; letter; lobbying; loneliness; marginalisation; marginalised communities; media; oppression; outing; penpals; politics; prison; prisoners; protest; radical politics; rainbows; safety; sexual violence; social media; solitary confinement; support; television; trans; transgender; violence; women
DATE: 10 December 2017
YEAR: 2017
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm Kate McIntyre, and I am a organiser for, um, people against Prisons A a Wellington based organiser. So, um, what we do at Papa is we, um, advocate for, um, for prisoners, and we, um we push Our ultimate goal is prison abolition. So we, um you know, we target the Department of Corrections. We advocate for prisoners on the inside. We have, um, the PC N as our, uh, sort of system organisation that is run [00:00:30] from within, Papa. But, um, and you organise a penpal network, um, so that prisoners can be in contact with the outside. And what I do is I organise the Wellington branch. And, um, I also am in charge with, um, sort of lobbying parliament. So we write submissions to try and stop bills from passing or in support of bills passing. Um, talk with MP sometimes and try and, um, push for reforms that we think would be helpful. So [00:01:00] where did Papa come from? Um, people against prisons was originally no pride in prisons and started in 2015. Um, on the announcement that corrections officers would be marching in uniform at the Auckland Pride parade. And so what happened was, um that went ahead. And, um, several of the original members in Auckland, um, protested that, and, uh, one of our organisers was injured, and that made world headlines. Um, because, [00:01:30] yes, she was, um a you know, Trans woman, um, protesting the inclusion of corrections officers and pride because, um, of the abuse that, um in particular, queer and trans prisoners face in prisons and how that's really unacceptable. And, um, it just illustrated how she, um, when she was injured by security at pride, Um, that there was no place for, um, radical politics and pride or for, um, particular, um, marginalised, [00:02:00] more marginalised members of the LGBT community. Um, and then and then from there, um, formed no pride in prisons. Originally, it was just the words printed on the banner, but the media gave us that name and it stuck. And, um, from there, we started advocating for, um, prisoners in particular. Um, a couple of trans women got in contact with us in prisons, and we managed to organise for one of them to be transferred out of a men's prison to um, a women's prison where she, [00:02:30] um was a lot safer and less vulnerable to sexual violence against her. And then we campaigned to, um, on behalf of another prisoner after, um, she was raped in prison. She was put in solitary confinement, and we campaigned to get her out of there. And, uh, recently, we, um, launched, um, an in solitary confinement campaign. So we're broadening that ground work, the ground work that was done there. We're, um, broadening and and, [00:03:00] um, pushing for the complete abolition of solitary confinement in New Zealand. Um, yeah. So, um, no pride in prisons. Um, earlier this year became people against prisons. And we, um, made that change for a few reasons. Um, late last year, we voted, we decided that, um, we would no longer be an exclusively queer and trans organisation that we would advocate for all prisoners because we wanted, um, for as [00:03:30] many, um prisoners as possible to and ex prisoners as possible to join us. And regardless of their sexual orientation, it didn't matter. We just wanted them and our movement and also, um, through the prisoner correspondence network. We were getting penpal requests from a lot of, um, a lot of straight prisoners. And that was for a few reasons. Um, it really wasn't safe for a lot of the people we were writing to, um, to be receiving mail from an explicitly like, queer organisation with rainbows all over [00:04:00] everything. Um, so, like so? So some of them were a bit subtle about it when promote when promoting the per prisoner correspondence network to other prisoners. And so we were getting requests from a lot of straight prisoners. Um, who just wanted a pen pal. And, um, so that yeah, that that was, um, So we and we weren't in a position where we wanted to deny them, um, support just because they weren't queer, Chas. So when you say it wasn't necessarily safe, where are those safety issues coming from? So, yeah, the prisoner correspondence [00:04:30] network originally started to provide queer and trans prisoners and a network linked to their community outside of prisons. And but a lot of people in prison are closeted or, um, and prison itself is, um, quite an oppressive and closeting atmosphere in general, where you don't want to be too out, even if you are out. And so, um, so on on one hand, we were getting, um, straight people um who [00:05:00] their friends weren't out to, their friends who promoted the PC into them, went out to, and they were writing. And But we're also getting people who, um, might not be comfortable, you know, being out. But they they want to, um, find those links. So it's also a matter of that. Nothing in prison is quite ever quite secure. Uh, often mailed up, incoming and outgoing. Mail does get read by correction staff, and some of them can be very, um, cruel and, um, homophobic. [00:05:30] And yeah, and they can They can out prisoners as well. So So where did the idea for the correspondence network come from? Is that something somebody had seen overseas, or was it an original idea? Yeah, it was an idea we got from a Canadian group that was doing it. And, um, so we launched the prisoner correspondence network about June or July last year. It was, and it was inspired by, um, people in Canada who are doing the same thing, and they call it the Prisoner Correspondence Network as well. Um, we just thought like it's a great [00:06:00] idea. It, um, gives us a link to prisoners that builds networks, um, between prisoners and free people. And, um, it it's how we can get advocacy requests. Um, for prisoners who might need, um, a bit more than just a penpal who might need people to actually step in on behalf of them. So how has the scheme gone? It's been going for over a year now. How? How How is it working? It's going great. As far as I know, we we've grown a huge amount. We often, um, grow in particular prisons [00:06:30] where we have a couple of like people who have successful, um, links with people who have pen pals. And they will spread the word so we'll get bursts of people within particular prisons. And then there'll be other prisons where we haven't gained so much traction. Like, um, we're working on expanding into women's prisons because, um, there's not too many in there. So is it hard to to get people to to want to be pen pals on the outside? Um, it's it's quite easy to sell when [00:07:00] you, um, describe it as brightening someone's day. Um, which is often how we, um, describe it like it's just a very simple thing that people can do for people incarcerated to, um, you know, brighten their day and, um, brighten their experience of their, um, quite awful experience of being incarcerated. And, um, I think there's a there's a growing interest and, um, you know, re humanising prisoners and that. So, um, I think we've got a [00:07:30] lot of interest outside, and we we definitely have. We have over 200 pen pals, some of them overseas, because all you have to do is write a letter or send an email, um, which gets scanned and sent to them. So we have a couple of pen pals who are even overseas. Yeah. What do you think the, um, the benefits are for both the pen pals and and and the people inside for being part of this network, Prisoners get a a place where they can express themselves and express. [00:08:00] Um, some of the things that the really repressive prison environment will try and, um, stamp out of them or push down Prisons are not are not good places for, um being expressive, So it's really good for them. Um, they get to build links with people outside. They get to practise their, um, writing skills because there's quite high rates of illiteracy in prisons as well. So, um, it gives them that ability and, um yeah, and we can, um And then they can ask for advocacy [00:08:30] as well. Um, so we they can ask if, um, we can do more for them than just write to prisoners, and and we can arrange that. So it's it's been really good. And then people on the on the outside they get a look into what it's like inside prisons. They get to, um they get to talk to someone who might not be from from the same sort of world as them. And, um, because a lot, because a lot of, um, the problem with prisons is [00:09:00] that the violence that goes on in there is happening out of sight and out of mind. Um, these people actually have windows inside where they can. They can understand better. Um, what's really going on? So how did you get involved? Um, I got involved, um, early last year in 2016, I started. Not really as a member. I was always, um, interested in no pride in prisons from the beginning from its genesis when, um you [00:09:30] know, we protested the pride parade, and, um, Emmy was injured. I was always I always had an interest in the organisation. And then I made friends with someone in Wellington who was starting up the Wellington branch. And, um And then, like early last year, I started to tag along to the Wellington out in the park meetings and try and lobby them to stop corrections from being involved, um, for 2017, and that was successful. But, um, and [00:10:00] then I did take a couple of trips to Auckland. I met everyone up there, and, uh and then we became a bit more organised and like, a bit more centralist in the way we organised. And so, um, I stepped up and and became parliamentary advocacy coordinator. So, like the person who lobbies Parliament in Wellington and and yeah, that's that's me. I joined at first because I was an emerging, um, [00:10:30] lesbian who, um, was learning, learning about the, um, applying a more radical politics to the politics of, um, queer liberation. And, um, I was really incensed by, um, the liberalness of of pride and and the fact that, um, corrections officers were allowed to March and the fact that there were people being actively excluded from it. Um, but yeah, further down the line, I'm really glad that we're not an exclusively [00:11:00] queer and trans organisation anymore. And and I'm really glad that we're, um, building ourselves to be bigger than that to be the the face of prison abolition, rather than, uh, the branch of a movement that doesn't quite exist yet. Yeah. Was it hard to move away from just being a, um, a kind of a queer focused organisation to to broaden it out? I think it was easier to be honest for the reasons I mentioned before that, Um, there's a lot of a lot of, um, prisoners and a lot of [00:11:30] people who have an interest in prison reform and prison abolition who, um, didn't have a movement to join, and they were kind of being included anyway, like with the straight pen pals who were writing to us. And we were like, Of course, we're gonna try and find you a pen pal anyway, and so we just, um becoming what was no longer a queer and trans organisation was really just us being honest with ourselves and realising that we're weren't quite that anymore. It didn't mean that all the organisers, [00:12:00] um, the original members turned straight all of a sudden. Definitely not. Um, And there's still a very strong interest in in, um, anti pink washing politics. But but we our our focus is to, you know, target the Department of Corrections more generally. So I remember seeing some media around about the the protesting of the pride parades and that, um, I had read that corrections were going to make attempts at at at at kind of, um, having more [00:12:30] inclusive policies. Do you know, as it happened, um, I think that the the violence that corrections does is is it can't really be reformed. Um, they they'll talk about being more inclusive ones, and they do have, you know, police corrections. They do have diversity liaison people. But at the end of the day, um, you know, queer and trans prisoners, they're still experiencing violence, as all prisoners are, because it's a space of violence and a space of, um [00:13:00] of oppression. And so I can't think I don't think they can ever move away from that. And we we see it all over with, um, you know, a NZ which, um, that they'll, um, do all these inclusive policies their GT MS and their um, But in the end, it's really just about, um, trying to capitalise off a market and, like, present themselves as a kind of ethical organisation or or business. [00:13:30] And, um, but they're still, um, exploiting their workers, exploiting their in the environment. They they have their fingers on a lot of pies all over the world that exploit people in the environment. Yeah. So, looking forward to say, uh, next year's pride parades in both Auckland and Wellington is that something that, uh, you're going to be targeting or advocating that corrections? Don't be a part of, um we won't protest it if they are included. Because we we've moved beyond that [00:14:00] now. And, um uh, happy with the work we do more generally, um, not focused around politics of pride, but, um, politics of prisons as a whole. But we would still, you know, encourage people to, um object and protest that decision. And, um, I like there was a brief, um, window earlier this year where we thought that corrections officers were going to be, um protest. Um, sorry. Marching in the Wellington Pride parade, and [00:14:30] there was a bit of an internal debate, and we decided not to protest it. But there were still a lot of people in Wellington who were really incensed about the decision, and they wanted to protest it, and we were encouraging that. But then it was announced that, um, they actually wouldn't be marching anymore. And so that was a bit of a relief, but yeah, today we're at a workshop, a very special workshop. Can you tell me what you're doing today? OK, so today we're crafting a whole lot of holiday cards to send to our incarcerated [00:15:00] pin pals across New Zealand. And, um, the the goal is to, you know, just really brighten up their day and let them know that they're, um, supported and being thought of around the holiday season. Um, we did this last year, and it was very successful. And all of the, um, incarcerated pen pals were very, um, had a very positive reaction to that to being sent to a whole lot of holiday cards. And so we're doing that again. And we've had workshops in Auckland [00:15:30] yesterday and we're having another one in Wellington today. And so can you paint a picture for me? What? It's like, um, for an incarcerated person on Christmas Day. What do they What would they, um, receive if nothing, um, I've seen some corrections PR about, um, you know, Christmas pageants and and so on. But for a lot of people, it's still a very lonely experience. Um, some might get to see their families, but others. Um, some people are estranged from their families, and they actually have very few links [00:16:00] on the outside, which is what the prisoner correspondence network is supposed to combat and and create links between people. Um, my friend has a pen pal in, um, prison. Who, um, he could remember the exact date of his last visit, and it was over a year ago. So, um so, yeah, for a lot of them, it's just very lonely and and quite depressing around the holiday season. Just being in in prison and [00:16:30] not being able to be outside and enjoying the holidays. So, um, even though, you know, corrections might put on a couple of festivities, I think it would still be very depressing. Yeah. Uh, so I'm Tom, um, recent graduate from thick work at the university. Still, um, what brought me here today? Was it just see something very easy and sweet to do around the holiday period where we're all supposedly [00:17:00] thinking about other people and, um, you know, celebrating the end of the year and that sort of stuff. Had you been involved with, um, either no pride in prisons or the prisoner correspondence network before? Uh, so, yeah, I found the PC N network through, um, social media basically just ended up following people who work for, um, people against prisons. And so I signed up for that network, um, over in a few letters and then [00:17:30] saw that they were doing this through in social media. What are the, um, benefits of of being a pen pal? Um, they were, from my perspective, from someone obviously not in prison that just it. It it opens up, uh, you know, a side of life that you're just not exposed to. You get kind of, you know, over determined narratives about prisoners most of the time and just, you know, see that they they're people [00:18:00] with their own struggles, Like like anybody but you know, that's been also magnified by the largest problem, isn't it? Um, And then from what I've gathered from talking to my pin pals, it just seems like loneliness and boredom is a big part of life in prison and, you know, talking about stuff, talking about stuff that's not prison talking about, You know, pretty much anything with them seems to give some sort of relief or, you know, something Every rep prive [00:18:30] from day to day life. What? What? What have you learned? What is the biggest thing that you've kind of taken away so far? Um, you just it's so easy to take for granted your own, sort of like freedoms. And you, you sort of like, you know, you're sitting on at home after work and you're feeling bored and you don't know what to do with yourself. And then you're like, Well, like I could put something back, I could help somebody. There's people in worst situations, basically, [00:19:00] just Yeah, yeah, I don't know really how to find that without sounding kind of cheesy and corny. It must also be a very interesting experience. Where rather than just seeing, um, you know, prisoners as a as a mass group, You're actually dealing on a 1 to 1 basis. Yeah, it's you. You start seeing you start seeing the same sort of stories come back up as well. Like such similar, like backgrounds that, you know, you get like, you [00:19:30] get the individual like the particular But then it's You can then, like, build a more accurate kind of network or like frame around how to understand a lot of these problems, I think, rather than as you say, just seeing, you know, prisoners within a prison system. It's people within the, you know. Yeah. Interlinked. The matrix of things. Basically. So what are some of the things that you kind of see coming up time and time again? Um, just disadvantage. Really? [00:20:00] Like it all seems to start very early. Um, like, yeah, they often talk about their childhood and, yeah, Has it changed your, um, outlook on corrections and prisons in New Zealand? Yeah, it's helped me Kind of I. I think I began seriously questioning things at university. Um, obviously, it's where we get exposed to a lot of new ideas, and yeah, this has [00:20:30] helped Kind of kind of make my own feelings, more firm that like it's It's it's OK to talk about the prison system in corrections on a conceptual level and what might be good and what might be bad in terms of how we want to resist or whatever. But then seeing actual individual lives within that system obviously kind of brings it, you know, firms up your sort of like thinking behind it and like what? You're really trying to [00:21:00] help and who you're trying to help. Yeah, I've really grown a lot in my skills and my ability to advocate for people, and it's been a really, um, a great experience of growth for me. I've become a bit, um, more so, but, um like I used to watch orange is the new black. And now I can't anymore because the issue has gotten far too real for me. Um, that the show just seems to be trivialising [00:21:30] it, um, for me. But I also have friends in the organisation who love that show. So that's just a me thing. Um, I I'm just feel like this is what I want to do. Um, for as long as possible, is continue to advocate for prisoners whether that's an outside or inside. If I end up going to prison one day, hopefully not. Um, just just, you know, pushing and pushing to, you know, minimise [00:22:00] the violence that corrections does and then towards prison abolition. This is this is what I want to be doing. And I'm really happy to be here. Yeah.

IRN: 1135
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/lets_talk_about_hate_speech.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004496
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089790
TITLE: Lets talk about hate speech
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Damian Light; Gayaal Iddamalgoda; Jan Logie; Logan Robertson; Nicola Willis; Philip Lynch; Stephen Berry
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; ACT New Zealand; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Baptist Church; Brian Tamaki; Conservative Party NZ; Cuba; Damian Light; Destiny Church; Donald Trump; Gayaal Iddamalgoda; General election; Human Rights Act (1993); Jan Logie; Logan Robertson; Migrant and Refugee Rights Campaign (MARRC); National Party; Nazism; New Zealand Herald; New Zealand Police; Newshub; Nicola Willis; Philip Lynch; Rainbow Election Forum (2017); Rainbow Wellington; Republic of Cuba; SoundCloud; St Andrew's on the Terrace; Stephen Berry; United Future; United States of America; Venezuela; Wellington; WestCity Bible Baptist Church (Auckland); censorship; church; community; crime; discrimination; facebook. com; fascism; free speech; gay; government; hate; hate speech; homosexual; incitement; law; love; media; murder; newspapers; police; politics; rugby; suicide; transgender; violence; youtube. com
DATE: 22 August 2017
YEAR: 2017
LOCATION: St Andrew's on the Terrace, 30 The Terrace, Wellington
CONTEXT: Please note that this audio podcast contains hate speech that may disturb some listeners.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um, in a free country, freedom of speech is probably about the most important value we have. And so that's why we cannot have laws banning hate speech. Uh, people like Brian Tamaki. He's a scumbag piece of shit, but he has the right to express his shitty views. And we also have the right to call him out on how shitty those views are. That's what freedom is about. Um, what about people with free speech? Who, um, are told to go kill themselves or, you know, um, yeah, if trans people [00:00:30] in particular, if people tell you to jump off a bridge, do you do it? No, of course not. It it is disgusting speech. It is disgusting speech, but that is part of living in a free country. And that is why you have the freedom to tell these people how disgusting they are. That was act Party representative Stephen Berry during the Rainbow Election Forum, held at Saint Andrews on the Terrace, Wellington, on the 22nd of August [00:01:00] 2017. A month earlier, on the 23rd of July, a sermon was preached by Pastor Robertson at the West City Bible Baptist Church. in Auckland. It was then uploaded onto the Internet and distributed via YouTube and Soundcloud. Here's a brief excerpt sourced from YouTube. My view on marriage is that the Bible never mentions it. So I'm not against them getting married as long as a bullet goes through their head the moment they kiss because that's what it talks about. You know, not [00:01:30] Homo marriage, but a Homo death. No, there There's no such thing as Mary, and it's not even be human. But that's what should happen. The police investigated the pastor and then dropped their investigation, stating to newshub that no criminal offence has been committed. After the Rainbow Election Forum in Wellington, I asked as many party representatives as I could find about their thoughts on hate speech and in particular, the Auckland pastor's recent sermon. Uh, so my name's Damien Light. [00:02:00] I'm a party president for United Future and our spokesman for Diversity. Um, when I saw that information come out, that was last week. Um, I it was of two minds. I was. First of all, I was thinking he's a horrible person. Don't want to give me a time. I'm just gonna, like, block you know, ignore that and just pretend that you know, that's horrible, who exist. But then I remember that that that's that's effectively condoning the actions, and it just endorsing it. Silence is is not enough. We need to actually speak out against these things. So I, um I've [00:02:30] been quite strong, um, saying that it's it's a horrendous thing. Um, he needs to be called out on it. Um, the good news is that he was investigated, but yeah, it's not a crime. Um, and so we've talked about, um, changing the Human Rights Act to make, um, discrimination and hate against people based on their gender or their how they self identify, um, as a crime. I hope we need to call it out. Specifically, um, I think it's always been kind of implied that that is discrimination. It's wrong. But we need to be quite specific about it. Um, I think we do need to be careful [00:03:00] about, um, censoring people. Um, there's a There's a if you censor, um, free speech, then you can end up in a kind of a kind of, um, Orwellian kind of a controlled sort of police state. I don't think that's what we're talking about. We're not heading there. We're not even near there. Um, we're talking about, um, quite specific, um, protections for people who, um, who, frankly, have been have been abused and discriminated against for so long. Um, we're talking about giving them some protections. Um, and the other thing is why I think it's important to talk about [00:03:30] it. Talk out against it is for other people who sit, and this is one of my passions, especially as a young person growing up. You see these comments being made and you see people supporting them. And if you don't see people speaking out against it, you think, oh, everybody else agrees with that? I'm alone in the world. Nobody. You know, I'm I'm different. I'm I'm not in a good way. I'm you know, I'm isolated. And so it's really important that, um, political parties and the government in particular speaks out against these issues. Um, and this hate that comes out so that we that people can see that it's not acceptable [00:04:00] and that people are standing up for them. Um, and I think the government needs to take a stronger stance on that, even just simply coming out and condemning it. Um, we talked a little bit before about, um, issues around the world as well. It's the same kind of thing if we don't come out and actively condemn it, Um, other people will see that that that that silence and they'll see that it's, um it's acceptance of it. And that's it simply isn't good enough. Um, so we need to do more for that, Um, particularly for our young people. I think coming, coming through, um, who see that as, um, an issue. And they see themselves being isolated. [00:04:30] So when you heard his statements, how did it affect you? Personally, I was really angry. I, um I saw her on Facebook, and I sat there with her. I was gonna respond to it. And I sat there for a couple of minutes, just sort of wanting to write and and all I could think of was, you know, uh, not equally bad, but some pretty horrendous sort of responses. Um what I thought of them or what? Or what? You know, um, but I realised that, uh, responding with hate with hate doesn't solve any problems. Um, and so, [00:05:00] yeah, I I decided to take a higher road and condemn what he'd said and why it was bad. Um, and why we need to speak out against it. Um, but yeah, personally, it really it really annoys me. Um, that he had done it, that he obviously did come out with it. And I originally thought I was annoyed cos it was a New Zealand Herald article. I was upset that they'd reported on it thinking they're giving this guy airtime, But again, it's that silence ignoring it's not gonna make it go away. So, um, I guess it gave people the opportunity to speak out against it. So, yeah, angry, though, would be my immediate [00:05:30] response. Yeah, really angry Nicola Willis from the national party. So obviously those comments by that pastor were disgusting. And what was good to see was that they were widely criticised by a broad range of New Zealanders. I don't think anyone defended him, and that's right and proper. Um, I think my, um, concern with these issues is that where people make those comments that we stand up and we condemn them for them. Do you think we need to actually hate speech legislation? [00:06:00] I wouldn't jump into that because any legislation like that runs the risk of oppressing people's right to free speech. And when we look at the change that has happened in our community over time, often that has happened because people have been able to speak freely. Uh, but I don't think that speech, the right to free speech means that you can be a complete idiot. Um, and be really nasty. Yeah. So whether or not legislation is required, there isn't something. I mean, it's just not something I would jump into So you would defend his right to be able [00:06:30] to say what he said. Um, I don't think he should have said what he said. I absolutely don't think he should have said what he said. Um, and I think it was offensive and intolerable, and I think that's the message he would have received loud and clear. So why do you think? I mean, the police came out saying that they couldn't prosecute him because he hadn't broken any law. I mean, do you have any thoughts on that? Well, um, I think that if I were him and I had received headlines across the country from from people telling me that what I had said was [00:07:00] disgusting. I would be reflecting right now and I would not be making those comments again. And I am glad that that's the way our New Zealand community works, that we turn on people who use such horrible speech. So I'm Stephen Berry on number five on the list for the ACT party. Um, I hate hate speech as much as anyone else, but I also believe in freedom of speech more, uh, more than I dislike hate speech. Um, the guy from West Auckland, what he said was absolutely disgusting. Um, I absolutely [00:07:30] unreservedly condemn it. Um, but it's probably as disgusting as you can get without actually inciting violence. And you know what value is free speech if we don't protect unpopular speech. See, II, I would question that he wasn't inciting violence because he did say, actually that that gay people should have bullets through their heads. So I mean, why isn't that inciting violence? Um, if he was actually getting people together and organising them to go and put bullets through people's heads, that would be a different thing if he was [00:08:00] leading a rally um, telling the people following him to put bullets through their heads That would be inciting violence. It is a very, very fine line. Um, and it's one that he danced to Mary Jig over, but it doesn't quite cross the threshold of incitement. But as I say, just because I believe passionately in freedom of speech, that is not an endorsement of the disgusting things that this person has said. And, um, the fact is that we have freedom of speech. Not that we can talk about the weather, but because we can say very controversial [00:08:30] things. So would you back in any way any kind of hate speech legislation? Uh, no, Absolutely not. And I mean, the thing is, um, me and you talking about this disgusting prick. There's also hate speech. So, you know, our idea shouldn't be suppressed anymore than his idea should be suppressed. Um, and the good thing about freedom of speech is that it shines the sunlight on the disgusting people in our country. Um, if we did [00:09:00] have restrictive hate speech laws, it'd probably be a bit quieter about them, and we wouldn't be able to single them out. So, um, yeah, freedom of speech will, uh, show more sunlight than any laws banning hate speech. But surely there's a difference between somebody that might be, say, in a position where they're talking to a large congregation, and and then you've got other, more vulnerable members of society who can't actually step up and and, like, you were saying in the in the in the forum here, you that can't step up and say, [00:09:30] Actually, I think you're a disgusting prick. They they don't have the where with all to to do that. Well, you know, not everybody can play rugby either. But we don't make the rules of rugby easier so that everybody can score a try. Um, someone earlier asked me about Well, what if someone's telling me to commit suicide? Um, but, you know, probably not a big surprise. People have told me to commit suicide, and you know what? I didn't do it, but then some people do, and some people can't, [00:10:00] um, respond like that. I understand that. And, um so I guess that's why politicians have a role in this society to stand up for those people. But we don't create a free society by passing laws which restrict freedom of speech. If you want to see a country where freedom of speech is restricted, Um, look at Venezuela, it's an absolute disaster. Um, Cuba, the whole of Eastern Europe before communism fell. And you know, it's a pretty long list and those [00:10:30] countries are miserable. Poor, terrible people were locked up in jail for saying the wrong sorts of speech. Freedom of speech is the most important value we have in a free society. Unfortunately, you're going to get some scumbags who say things like that. But if we take steps like hate speech laws to ban them from doing it well, we're just doing the same sort of fascist approach that those other countries I mentioned had So Jan Lo, Green Party MP and Rainbow Spokesperson Um so I've been [00:11:00] following that in the media along, I guess, with everyone else in the community being horrified by it, and but made a decision not to speak publicly about it, because this is the second time that he's done that and his congregation has grown since the first time, and I, I don't want to give him any more public attention in terms of that hatefulness because I think he's in a process of trying to recruit based on those [00:11:30] views. And I do think this is an example, though, that we do need to look at our hate speech legislation. And we also need to renew efforts of community building and establish links between diverse communities and engaging, um, some of the mainstream churches and some of that work with the more outlying churches. I was really surprised the police coming out saying that they couldn't prosecute. There was [00:12:00] no there's no criminal act. Yeah, And despite that being very, um, being felt by many of us, I think as as a threat of violence and an incitement to violence. But, um, I I think it is a call for us to look at our legislation. So So what do you think could be changed in the legislation? What? What would you look at? Yeah, see, I'm I'm not exactly sure. That's, you know, the politicians answer when I don't have the answer is like, [00:12:30] I think we need to review it and look to it to what we need to do to be able to, um, make sure that, you know, people aren't threatening violence against members of our community and that whether that's through the Human Rights Act or whether that's, you know, another place that we need to be looking at, that Yeah, I'm Philip Lynch with the Conservative Party. I'm not sure about hate speech laws as such, but I know we should absolutely abhor anything that denigrates [00:13:00] anybody else. For whatever reason, I mean, you can't build a country on hate. I mean, there have been plenty of examples of that through history, and they just fall over. You've got to build a country through love, and that means for everybody. We're all different. Uh, but that doesn't mean to say we're not special. Everybody is special, and everybody should be respected regardless of who they are or what they are. And I don't know that people might say you need a law, but should we need a law just to have people be decent to one another? But then what happens [00:13:30] when when you do get, say, like, the pastor in Auckland coming up with these these these quite, um, extreme views. Uh, I mean, what do you do if you don't have a law against that? Well, I don't know that the how many people are actually listening to him and and and doing anything other than ridiculing him and saying That's the craziest thing I've ever heard. I mean, you can go in there, you can lock him up, I guess, and say that this man is mentally deranged. But you know, I, I don't hear that. There's a chorus of approval for what he's doing, and I think that's the answer. I think most people, [00:14:00] the vast majority of people, are poor, that sort of business, And I don't think you need actually a law to to say what you're doing is wrong. Hi, I'm Gada from the migrant Refugee Rights campaign. Um, I think it's interesting how if you defame an individual, particularly a wealthy individual, they'll take you to court and sue the pants off you. But you can defame and denigrate vulnerable groups. Look, I think freedom of speech is very important, and I support people's right to be wrong about certain things, you know, even [00:14:30] if they are homophobic or racist. But when you you know, when you when you're a particular kind of person, you know who is advocating you know, killing minorities or whatever these people aren't. They're not buying into freedom of speech. You know, if you look at the way you know, fascists and Nazis have come to power, they don't They don't go around debating people. They go around shooting people in the head. Look, I don't I don't believe that laws are effective in smashing [00:15:00] fascism and hate. I think communities are. But, you know, hate speech is not hate. Speech legislation is not the worst thing in the world. According to me, I think there is just one other comment. I think there are already laws about inciting people to violence, and you can be charged with those sort of laws. And I think that's where it where it lies. I mean, if people are saying to someone you should go out and shoot that person in the head because you don't like the way they are, Um, that's diabolical stuff. You know? That's a fascist response to people just living their own lives. [00:15:30] Yeah, I think it's just really it's really important to bear in mind, sort of like this trend of sort of right wing fanaticism that's rearing its ugly head around the world in Trump's America and in Europe. So we should take this kind of thing quite seriously and sure, I hope that this person is Magal. I'm sure he is. But you know, as I said, you know these people don't win by spreading good ideas. They win by [00:16:00] doing violent things.

IRN: 1134
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_election_forum_2017.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004495
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089789
TITLE: Rainbow Election Forum 2017
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Damian Light; Gayaal Iddamalgoda; Grant Robertson; Jan Logie; Lauren Wilkerson; Nicola Willis; Paddy Plunket; Pete Young; Philip Lynch; Richard Arnold; Stephen Berry
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; ACT New Zealand; Aceh (Indonesia); Africa; Amy Adams; Animal Agenda Aotearoa (campaign); Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Bill English; Brian Tamaki; Campaign to Pardon Gays in Aotearoa; Charlottesville; Chechnya; Conservative Party NZ; Criminal Records (Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences) Act 2018; Damian Light; David Do; David Seymour; Democrats for Social Credit; Destiny Church; District Health Board (DHB); Education Review Office (ERO); Embassy of the Russian Federation in New Zealand; Ethiopia; Foreshore and Seabed Act (2004); Gareth Morgan; Gayaal Iddamalgoda; General election; Gisborne; Grant Jones; Grant Robertson; HIV / AIDS; Hekia Parata; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Housing New Zealand; Human Rights Commission; Ian Anderson; Indonesia; InsideOUT Kōaro; Jan Logie; John Banks; Judith Butler; Karl Popper; Lauren Wilkerson; Louisa Wall; Migrant and Refugee Rights Campaign (MARRC); Mojo Mathers; Māori; Nathan Ross; National Party; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand First; New Zealand Labour Party; Nicola Willis; Nikki Kaye; Paddy Plunket; Pakeha; Paul Foster-Bell; People Against Prisons Aotearoa (formerly known as No Pride In Prisons); Pete Young; Peter Dunne; Philip Lynch; Post Primary Teachers Association (PPTA); PrEP (Pre-Exposure Prophylaxis); Qtopia (Christchurch); Rainbow Election Forum (2017); Rainbow Wellington; Rainbow Youth; Rev Dr Susan Jones; Richard Arnold; Richard Prebble; Roger Douglas; Sam Orchard; Shakti New Zealand; St Andrew's on the Terrace; Switzerland; Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington; Te Paati Māori; The Opportunities Party (TOP); Tino Rangatiratanga; Tiriti o Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi; Tommy Hamilton; United Future; United Nations; Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948); Wellington; Wiremu Demchick; Women's Refuge; acceptance; access; access to health care; addiction; adoption; alcohol and drug abuse; animal rights; animals; anxiety; apology; beneficiaries; benefits; binding referendum; biphobia; birth certificate; bisexual; blood donation; cats; charter schools; children; civil unions; climate change; compassion; conscience vote; conservative; convention refugee; cross political party working group; depathologise; depression; discrimination; diversity; education; emergency housing; employment; family; fascism; forum; freedom of expression; funding; gay; gender identity; gender reassignment surgery; government; hate; hate speech; health care; health funding; health system; homelessness; homophobia; homophobic violence; homosexual law reform; housing; housing crisis; human rights; identity; identity documents; identity politics; inequality; internet; intolerance; leadership; mana; manaakitanga; marginalisation; marginalised communities; marriage equality; mental health; open borders; pansy; pardon; parents; people of colour; petition; petition on historic convictions; policy; politics; prison; queer straight alliance (QSA); racism; rainbow parents; rainbow refugee; refugee; refugee quota; rent; resource; rural; safe sex; school; school counselor; self harm; sex education; sexual identity; social housing; socialism; suicide; suicide prevention; surgeon; surgery; takatāpui; tax; teacher; teaching; tolerance; transgender; transgender bullying; unconditional basic income; urban; veganism; video; violence; youth
DATE: 22 August 2017
YEAR: 2017
LOCATION: St Andrew's on the Terrace, 30 The Terrace, Wellington
CONTEXT: After the forum we interviewed some of the representatives about their views on hate speech. This audio can be found here
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: OK. Oh, in the middle. Hello, everyone. As I said earlier, I'm Richard Arnold. I'm the chair of Rainbow Wellington, and we're hosting this event in what is proving to be the most interesting run up to an election that we've had in a long, long time. And it's good to see so many many people come out to see this happen. Um, especially lots of young people who are of great interest in the electorate at the moment. [00:00:30] Um, I'm now going to invite all of our, uh, politicians who are coming to speak to us tonight to come up to the stage and take seats wherever they like. So we're very pleased to have everyone here. Um, I'd like to say thank you. First of all, uh, to Saint Andrews. Susan who's, uh, hosted us here in this wonderful venue, this wonderful community venue. Um, and it's great that, uh, we can be here thanks to the politicians for turning up, so we'll hear from them shortly. Um, thanks to you guys for turning up and, [00:01:00] uh, facing them. Um, I'd also like to thank uh, the rest of the rainbow Wellington board who helped run this event But also we've got some volunteers from inside out. And, um from, uh, Pride New Zealand and possibly from other places as well. So I can't remember We're collecting, um, money for for those, uh, community organisations at the front. So that's, uh, little, um dishes there. You're also very welcome. If you'd like to join Rainbow Wellington if you haven't, we're Wellington's [00:01:30] networking, social connecting lobbying organisation. So we do various things apart from our monthly drinks. We, um, run events like this. Um and also we put submissions into, um Parliament, for example, where we've got a submission in on the expungement of historical offences Bill that's currently under consideration. Parliament. OK, so I want to explain now how this event is going to work. So there are going to be three phases after this one. Phase one is we're gonna invite each [00:02:00] of the, uh, the, um politicians to have have a four minute uninterrupted speech, and Lauren Wilkerson is going to see that. So it is a strict four minutes. You may not go over. There is a dinging bell. Um, that will interrupt you if you go beyond that. Um, Phase two is a question and answer from the floor, which I will wrangle so you'll have an opportunity to ask questions and we'll have some of the politicians answer. It won't be feasible to have every person answer every question. So we'll, um, [00:02:30] we'll do subsets of that. That'll be the end of the formal proceedings. After that, we'll have a mix and mingle. You'll be able to meet the candidates face to face 1 to 1 over some refreshments. So that's food and drink that we have. OK, so without further ado, I'll just run through who we have here. We have Grant Robertson from Labour Phil Lynch from, um, the Conservatives Pete Young from the Democrats Nicola Willis from National Jane Logie from Green. [00:03:00] Just, um uh, gala is from, uh, the migrants Paddy blanket from the Opportunities Party, Damien Light from United Future and Stephen Berry from act. So I'm gonna hand over to Lauren. Uh, welcome. Thank you for coming. Um, so, yes, like Richard said, we'll get four minutes, um, slots per [00:03:30] party. Um, we'll keep them to a tight time frame. Um, please. Uh, hold on to your questions until after they've spoken, so we'll start with the Grant Robertson, and we'll hand the mic around. So, Grant, if you'd like to take the floor Uh uh, Greetings, everybody. It's great to see a good crowd here today. Uh, and also, I'd like to add my thanks to Susan for having us here. Once again, Uh, at Saint Andrews on the terrace. I feel almost [00:04:00] like I've refound my presbyterian, uh, roots because I seem to find myself at Saint Andrews on the terrace on a very regular basis, but pretty much always talk about rainbow related matters. So, uh, that's a very good thing. Um, I've handed round to you, or hopefully, most of you have got access to a copy of a summary of our rainbow labour policy that we're taking to this 2017 election. I'm extremely proud of this policy. What it is is a continuation and a reaffirmation of the Labour [00:04:30] Party's support for our communities. Uh, we can go back to the 19 eighties and see the Labour Party's legacy, and in terms of homosexual law reform through the civil unions, marriage, equality with lewis', uh, bill there. We are proud of that legacy. But we also know that there is always more to do in the journey towards fairness and social justice in the journey towards, uh, equality, acceptance and embracing of all of our communities. So I'm going to work you through two [00:05:00] or three of the highlights of that policy. Now, um, it is a summary, too, because being the Labour Party, we have, like, an eight page document that goes with it. But we thought we'd give you the, uh, the 2. 5 page version today. And it really is built around those three themes around access around freedom and around equality. And when it comes to access, the issues that we want to highlight this year are our support for the New Zealand AIDS Foundation's campaign to end HIV by 2025 in New Zealand. New transmissions of HIV. [00:05:30] This is completely possible now, and actually it's a moral imperative for New Zealand that we step up and we do this. A core element of that is access to prep, but it is also so about access to education, the ongoing social marketing campaigns that NZAF does regular testing and counselling services. We can do this if we commit ourselves to it, and we need to do it because we've actually seen a record level of new transmissions of HIV in the last year. [00:06:00] The time has come for us to step up and join that campaign, and we're very proud to do that. The other particular issue around access that I want to highlight is towards affordable health care for our communities and in particular for the trans community. Uh, the time has come for us to address a terrible injustice not only in terms of access to surgeries, which is horrifically low in New Zealand at the moment, but also in terms of broader health, health care and the health needs of our transgender community being met. [00:06:30] So we will make that a priority. Labour is going to add $8 billion to the health budget over the next four years, on top of what's been committed by National in the budget this year. We can do that because we're not prioritising tax cuts. We think it is better for our community to come together. We can be a lot better together, and we can actually provide the kind of quality health services such as those for our trans community. Uh, if we make those choices as a country. [00:07:00] 20 bucks a week in your pocket for a tax cut might sound good, but I'd rather see our whole community able to access quality health care services as a priority for us. When it comes to the issue of freedom. I really just want to talk briefly, and there's a lot more to the policy here. But I want to talk briefly about the importance of safe schools and a safe environment for young people to grow up in. Uh, the cross party group that we've had in Parliament has done some really good work [00:07:30] around, starting to improve what the Education Review Office needs to do when it goes into a school. How many? 10 seconds? Um, we can do a lot more in that regard in terms of enforcing the guidelines that we've got and in terms of equality, we've still got a legislative thing to do, and that is to make sure that we eliminate discrimination on the grounds of gender identity from our law. Lots more in the policy. You'll see it soon. Thank you, Gran. That's great, Phil. [00:08:00] Thank you very much. I'm Philip Lynch. I represent the Conservative Party, Uh, in the Rima electorate, I only found out it was about quarter past five that, uh, I've been trying to contact Lauren for quite some time during the last week, and particularly during the last couple of days to see whether or not I'd be able to be here. And I got the confirmation that 5 15. So I run all the way from upper hut to be here. So excuse me if I'm a bit out of breath and, uh, I don't hold [00:08:30] it against you That you didn't give me a standing ovation when my name was announced. I represent the Conservative Party partly and mainly probably because I agree with them that for New Zealand and New Zealanders to reach their full potential, we need to reinvest in families, families to the foundation of a healthy society. And a multigenerational families are the pillars in that society. Government doesn't trump family because government cannot supply Children the love that only your mom and dad can provide. [00:09:00] If we're serious about tackling issues like child abuse, child poverty, substance abuse and suicide, then we need to teach our young people how to build, develop and maintain healthy, long lasting relationships knowing that the best place for Children to grow up is with the mum and dad that love them and each other. And that's part of the, uh that's part of the standard text. I'm going to go away from that and just say to you that the Conservative Party does not have as far as I know, [00:09:30] Uh, any specific poli, uh, policies R related to GB double T IP Q plus, as was, uh, mentioned to us in the circular. But I'd like to speak to you tonight, if I may, just for a few minutes about inequality. Uh, and there are two glaring inequalities. Um, discriminations, I believe that exist in New Zealand and have done for some time. Uh, the first of that is a financial discrimination. [00:10:00] It came about principally in the 19 eighties when the new right decided that there was a better way of running the economy. And what happened was, uh, the few at the top picked up most of the Berries and the many at the bottom got the stones that were left out of them. Uh, there's something wrong with the taxation system and a and a, uh, system and a government, which seems to reward the few at the expense of the many. And we believe that there is a better way of collecting [00:10:30] money because see, governments actually don't have any money. I mean, I know that Grant's talked about 8 billion. He's going to throw around. They don't have any money at all other than what they take out of your pocket and borrow. And right at the moment we'll have people going around the country telling you how much they're going to spend to do all these things. They're spending your money, and we believe that the best way for you to get ahead and everybody to get ahead is to take less of your money. And one of the ways of doing that is to change the system we have [00:11:00] of collecting on everything we buy. Uh, currently, you pay GST on everything 15%. So if you go into a supermarket and get a trolley with $100 worth of retail goods, you'll pay 100 and $15 for that. We believe that if you use a financial transaction tax instead of GST and you set that tax at half a cent in the dollar, then your trolley will cost you $100. 50 [00:11:30] instead of 100 and 15. And you can do the math if you want to. It works out. It also means that if you want to sell a million dollars worth of shares, you'll pay $5000 for the privilege of that. And if you want to use that million dollars to buy another, uh, lot of shares, you'll pay another 5000 on that. So it's just reorganising where the money is coming from. And I reiterate government doesn't have any money other than it takes from us. The second thing, uh, the discrimination. The worst discrimination [00:12:00] in New Zealand is discrimination against one group of New Zealanders because of their size, place of residence and age. I'll talk about that later. Thank you, Phil. Thank you. Uh, moving on to Pete Young from, uh, Democrats. Yeah, Uh, greetings. All, Um, I'm always used to going last because of my surname. So this is really strange for me, and Yeah, I'm, uh I'm here on behalf of the Democrats for social credit. [00:12:30] Uh, unfortunately, we don't we don't have a candidate anywhere in the Wellington region. Uh, but many thanks to the organisers who've kindly allowed us to have some speaking time. Um, so I'm just here as an informal party rep to do that. Um, I want to talk to you this evening. Um, about how I see our party's philosophy and policies being, um, very supportive of of your needs and aspirations. Um, our party constitution sets out [00:13:00] as fundamental beliefs that systems should be made for people. Uh, not people for systems, Um, and that the the individual is more important than the state. So those are our starting principles. Um, in respect of what I have to say, um, tonight, uh, so we have among our party's fundamental policies, uh, universal basic income UB I, um, as a right of citizenship. Personally, I'd prefer to see that as [00:13:30] a right of, uh, of residency or even of humanity. But that's that's where it is at the moment. Um, with economic security, Uh, I believe that we could shake off many of the shackles of conformity and oppression, Uh, on our individuality. Uh, well, at least it would help, um, free education. Free health care, including mental health care and old age care. Uh, those would certainly help, For example, [00:14:00] to reduce the risk and the number of suicides, we we want to put human rights into a a written constitution. Um, your human rights against discrimination, uh, on the grounds of sex, for example, or sexual orientation would be set up as the highest law, uh, at the level of the highest law constitutional law, Um, over the heads of politicians who might ever want to, um, [00:14:30] kick that around. Um, obviously, uh, the protections against discrimination should extend to adoption. Uh, surrogacy and excess issues. Uh, however, the protections in the Bora in the Human Rights Act as they stand, um, are actually still rather slim. So we we would simply welcome you to join us and help us develop our policy. Uh, two things that really need explaining. Uh, first, [00:15:00] how would we fund all this? Well, some of you may remember that we are the party of, um, monetary reform. Um, you know, we can never shake that label. The funny money party. So there, I put it out there for you. Um uh, but, uh, I can't Can't go into that in any any detail. I don't know. Perhaps in question time, someone might like to ask a question. Um, and then the the last item I want to cover is that we actually have a policy for citizens initiated [00:15:30] binding referenda. And I know that many of you will be shuddering, even at the mere mention of that policy. Uh, but, uh, however, please remember that our party's policy is first of all to put your human rights into, um, constitutional law and so that they would be removed. Uh, the protections against discrimination would be removed from the political realm. Uh, this is how it's been done in in Switzerland. And although I'm no expert, I understand that the experience [00:16:00] of, uh, ill two plus has not been bad in Switzerland. Um, thank you. Uh, so, um, the constitution would prohibit any binding referenda or, for that matter, any politician from targeting you as as minorities That Thank you very much, Nicholas. Thank you very much. Good evening. My name's Nicola Willis and I'm nationals candidate here in Wellington [00:16:30] Central. And I just want to start by addressing that gentleman and saying that families come in all shapes and sizes. And what matters is not the gender or sexuality of the parents, but that the Children are loved. I'm a new candidate. I haven't been in our parliament, so I don't have a track record of having voted on the pieces of legislation that are important [00:17:00] to your community. However, I do have very strong values as relates to these issues. And I want to be clear with you tonight about those values. First of those values is that I want to see the rights of our rainbow communities upheld and protected. The second of those values is that I want to see young people, uh, from the LGBTI community growing up feeling included, recognised and safe from bullying and hate. And I in particular, want to recognise [00:17:30] that it is young people in the LGBTI community that are disproportionately likely to suffer from mental health, illness, um, mental health challenges and from suicide. And that is a that is a devastating fact. And it's one that we have to work together as a country, uh, to confront, um, I myself am a mother of four Children, and I want to know that growing up in New Zealand. My Children will be treated well and respected no matter how they identify according to their gender or sexuality. [00:18:00] Finally, um, I want to acknowledge, um, in in echoing the sentiment of grant that there are a range of issues that we need to continue to make progress on, Uh and that will continue to come up in progressive parliaments. And where those issues and challenges come up, I think organisations like Rainbow Wellington uh, and other groups throughout the country have a particularly important role. And I want to today commit to working with you to be an ally for you. Uh, and to be a voice in the national party caucus, [00:18:30] that can be a conscience on these issues. So having spoken of those values, I do want to acknowledge the progress that this previous Parliament that just dissolved this week has made. It was fantastic to see, um, an apology made to those convicted of offences under the homosexuality, um, clauses of previous legislation, Uh, that apology and the fact that it was universally upheld in Parliament, I think was a great sign of where we've come to, um and [00:19:00] it's good to see that legislation brought before the house to provide a pardon for those offences. That is fantastic progress. Um, it's also good to see that we have the AIDS foundation supported, um, and its goal to see New Zealand be HIV free. But I want to just, um, in the final minute or two of my four minutes. Um, talk about this issue of LGBTI Q youth. This is an issue that Nikki Kay, our minister for youth, has given particular, uh, attention to, [00:19:30] uh, with increased funding for rainbow youths and inside out in particular, uh, and the development of a cross agency response group, uh, to support, uh, the range of initiatives across government that need to happen here. Um, so clearly what needs to happen is that we need to support organisations to provide the mentoring and the leadership and the demonstration of how our young people should be treated. And I want to see that work continue. Uh, and I was really pleased to see, in the recent mental health package [00:20:00] policy package released by the government, um, more than $8 million committed to, uh, mental health resilience in schools. Um, finally, in closing, can I just uh, recommit that. I want to continue to work with organisations like Rainbow Wellington and affirm the work that you do. OK, Jan, Um it's really lovely to be here. [00:20:30] Um the So I want to speak a bit tonight about the work that we've done in this parliament that this parliament, um I initiated a cross party working group on LGBT Q I rights and which I co-chair with Paul Foster Bell from the National Party and Louisa Wall from Labour and involves members where it initially involve members from every single party. But New Zealand first has been a little bit tentative, so we're not quite sure where they stand on it, But [00:21:00] this It's been one of the hardest working committees in Parliament. Actually, we wrote to all of the ministers asking them what they were doing to progress LGBT Q i rights and that had been raised by our communities and and sent to the United Nations. So that was around issues of health care issues around identity, documents, safety, safety in prison, safety in our school system and inclusiveness. And so then some of the answers we got [00:21:30] back were kind of disappointing and we wrote back and engaged again. And we worked with, um, David Seymour from the act party, um, to lobby, um, the then minister of Education to get some progress on our schools so that they have now committed to, um, a review of the sexuality guidelines in practise in our schools, and that's dealing with consent. But it's also dealing with the inclusivity of the sex education [00:22:00] in schools. And they've committed to er reviewing safety of our schools for trans students, which is really long overdue. I think it needed and should be wider than just trans students because we know that the rates of bullying for LGBT Q i students, it's severe and the impact is long lasting. But it is a start, and we managed to host all sorts of really wonderful events and had members from the community come in and [00:22:30] educate us on issues so that we could go back into our caucuses and lobby for change. And so that's I feel has been real progress for Parliament, and the Greens also separately been very proud to be able to be your representatives to receive your petition. So we've received the petition from Tommy Hamilton and others around access to health health care for trans people in New Zealand. [00:23:00] Um, that Parliament considered sadly, the greens and labour put in a minority view on the report of that, um, consideration because it really wasn't good enough. The government somehow just won't go there when we had nine DH BS tell us that they provide no health care services, we're not just talking surgery, no health care services to trans people. We have a real problem, and just a review is not good enough. [00:23:30] We were also pleased to receive the petition from around the expungement of homosexual convictions that is now wonderfully resulted in the introduction of legislation and most recently, the petition from Alison Hamlet and others around enabling people. And we've made a recommendation that people should be able to change their gender identity markers on their birth certificate on basis of self identification, that our gender identity should not be [00:24:00] up to the decision of a court or a health professional that that is really nothing really more personal than that. And so we look forward to being in a government to be able to keep this relationship going to be able to ensure that we properly fund all of our organisations around the country to be able to do the policy work and the linking and make sure that all government services from work and income from housing to older [00:24:30] New Zealanders to social development, all of them actually properly consider what our needs are and put the policy and funding in place to meet them. Everyone. It's a great honour to be here and I'd like to thank the organisers for for having me. Um, I think, uh, speaking from the migrant Refugee Rights campaign, the conversation that I want to contribute [00:25:00] to is how, um there's an intersection between the oppression that migrants and refugees face and the oppression that the queer community faces. And, um, I think it's important to note in the spirit of that conversation that there is an international trend. We see it here with migrants and refugees being blamed for pretty much any social and economic problem. But there is an international trend of migrants and refugees [00:25:30] being blamed for homophobia. OK, and I just want to read a quick quote from Judith Butler. We all have noticed this is when she refused a prize from Berlin Pride. We all have noticed that gay, bisexual, lesbian, trans and queer people can be instrumental by those who want to wage wars, IE culture wars against migrants by means of forced Islamophobia and military wars [00:26:00] against Iraq and Afghanistan. In these times, and by these means we we are recruited for nationalism and militarism. Currently, many European governments claim that our gay, lesbian and queer rights must be protected and that we are made to believe that the new hatred of immigrants is necessary to protect us. Therefore, we can say no to such a deal. To be able to say no under these circumstances is what I call courage. [00:26:30] But who says no and who experiences this racism, who are the queers who really fight against such politics. And she goes on to list a number of organisations that have hero heroically fought against such politics. And in New Zealand, I am thinking of, uh, movements such as no pride in prisons who have been working, who have been working closely with the disproportionately large number of Maori, um trans and queer uh, inmates, um, and who have now become a broader prison [00:27:00] abolition movement So, um, I'd like to recognise their work. And I'd also like to recognise the work of Shakti. Um uh though they are not a specifically queer or they are currently as you as you know, struggling for funding under the national government. And it is wrong and shameful that they are being denied that funding and being told that the needs of migrant refugee women and queer people can be catered to by the existing [00:27:30] women's refuges and other refuges that exist. Um, look, of course, migrants and refugees among them. There will be quob people, but also there are queer and trans migrants and refugees. And I want to start a conversation about, um, you know, how can we help these people who face the double the double burden, the double edged sword of queer and racism. So, um, what we call for is that queer queer organisations [00:28:00] be given full funding and because in a in a system of inequality in a system of inequality, migrants, refugees, people of colour and queer people are all in the same lot. We're all over represented among the homeless. We are all over represented by among the those who suffer from poor health. And this is a system of inequality. So I want to call on all of us. We're all allies to smash the system of exploitation, inequality, [00:28:30] racism, homophobia, sexism, et cetera, et cetera. Cool. Um, thank you to Saint Andrews and Rainbow Wellington for hosting this evening. And, uh, warm Wellington. Welcome to, uh, the lesbians, gays, bisexuals, transgenders, transsexuals, [00:29:00] intersexual, asexuals, pansexual, queer and straight people here this evening. Um, I'm Patty. Patty Plunkett. I'm the opportunities party candidate for the electorate in this election, um, announced today. So, um, yeah, uh, the, um yeah, I just like to to, um, talk to gay and to say that the Opportunities Party is committed to quadrupling the refugee [00:29:30] quota, Um, for New Zealand. So that people, um, who are suffering elsewhere in the world can come here and be safe, including people who are persecuted for their sexuality. Um, and we know there are many of those in the world. Um, so the the Opportunities Party is committed to equality for Maori, for women, and for queer people. Um, we're all included and and I'd like to read the, um, the Universal [00:30:00] Declaration of Human Rights article 25. Which, um, you know, I'm I'm I'm blown away by how much commonality there is. Um, amongst the people who are speaking here tonight, I think we all want this right. Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of themselves and their family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services and the right to security in the event of unemployment sickness, disability, [00:30:30] widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood and circumstances beyond their control. And this impacts everybody. Right? Um, and it particularly impacts on people who are marginalised, um, or stigmatised or discriminated against. Um, And although we have, um, more rights and getting towards equal rights under the law, um, I'm really aware that, um, that queer people face, [00:31:00] um, family rejection, social and employment discrimination and increased fear of violence. Um, and suffer from the stresses that living with that cause, um, so tops commitment. Very strong commitment to housing. Um, and, uh, housing is, and a reasonable standard [00:31:30] of living for for all of us, will will really make a difference there. And we we're talking about, um, not taking a $20 tax cut. But actually taxing all the homes that we have here, including the family home, significantly change the structure of our economy so that we can actually have homes for everybody, not just houses for 50% of the population and increasing renters rights. [00:32:00] Um, and that's going to put us all in a more secure position where we can contribute more fully to our communities to our families and and participate in society, you know, and and we know that discrimination, discrimination and marginalisation also lead to mental health issues and increased addictions in our communities, and top is committed to increasing the spending significantly [00:32:30] massively in those areas. $450 million worth of new spending, which is over three times what the Labour Party have committed to spending on mental health services in this election and some of the other. The other things that they're committed to are, um, you know, ending the dehumanising welfare system, Um, by phasing in, um, a universal basic income, including starting off with unconditional basic income for 18 to 23 year olds, reducing our prison numbers by 40% and reducing [00:33:00] reliance on the carbon economy by 2050. Thank you. OK, just two more speakers to go. So get your questions ready. So we now have Damien light. Thank you. Um Good evening, everybody. Uh, yeah. My name is Damien Light. I'm a party president. Um, for United Future. Um, I'm I'm a candidate for botany, Um, which is up in Auckland. But I've flown down here and talked to you guys today, Um, partly because, [00:33:30] um, I'm a spokesman for diversity, Um, as well. So, um, I wanted to come down. We had some of the other candidates wanted to come, but I really wanted to come and speak. Um, before I kick off, I just want to acknowledge, um, Wellington, um, for for hosting this event for having us here tonight. Um, also for, um, for the work that the MP S have done so far. Um, just in the last couple of years, um, to improve, um, situations in New Zealand. Um, but also, I see our candidates here as well, and obviously you guys for coming along, um, here. And finally I want to acknowledge my, um my boyfriend who's in the audience, um, [00:34:00] for, um for coming along, putting up with me, Um, and supporting me. I wouldn't be able to do this election without him. He's, um he puts up with a lot, um, including having with billboards and things as well. So he's he's quite good. He's a keeper, That one. Um, so I, I guess I can't really talk tonight without addressing sort of the elephant in the room. Um, obviously, yesterday, um, Peter Dunn, Who's our party leader? Um, one of the longest serving MP S, Um, in New Zealand. Parliament, um, indicated that he's not going to be seeking reelection, so he's retiring. Um, huge loss for us. It's a real shame. Um, Peter is [00:34:30] the reason I got involved in politics. Um, I. I wanted to, um, to get on board with the party that believed, um, in helping people. Um, and one of my, um, things that I love about Peter is Peter is one of the last, uh, MP S in parliament. Currently, um, who voted for, um, the homosexual, um, reform act and back in 19, all back in 1986. Um, and I'm he's proud of that, and I was just catching up with him. Paul's meeting and He's, um, proud of that. And he's He's pleased he voted for it. Um, it was a looking [00:35:00] back on it. Now, you think, um, it was It was a really close vote, and he was proud for it. Um, there's a couple of other MP S left in parliament, Um, who will be continuing through who also voted for it. Um, and one who voted against it. So, um, it's worth doing your research. Um, they're not here tonight. They ask a few questions. Um, So what am I here to talk about? So you don't know future? Who are we? Um, we're we're a small party. Obviously, Um, we've worked with National. We work with labour. Um, we think, um, the government has a role to create an environment where everybody has the opportunity to thrive, [00:35:30] no matter who they are or where they've come from. And we want New Zealand to be the best place to live, to work and to raise a family. And I use the word family, and I'm not ashamed to use the word family. It's not a narrow definition of the word family. It's the broadest sense. Um, people who they are who they who they identify as themselves. Raising Children, um, in a loving environment. So, um, we have we think families are really important to us. Um, but we're not. We're not narrow minded about it. Um, I had the pleasure this year, Um, a few weeks ago of launching our diversity [00:36:00] policy, uh, policy, um, which has got lots of good stuff in it. I won't go through all of it. I'll just talk about a couple of key points. Um, there's sort of four areas. One of them is as young people. Um, an open personal experience growing up being young. Being different is quite a challenge when you realise that you're different to everybody else around you. So we want to see more funding for schools to make sure they've got support groups. Um, but also that we're training our training, our teachers and our counsellors and our youth, um, community groups as well to understand, um, [00:36:30] the different challenges that people in in our community face so that they can, um, be respectful and and responsive. Um, so particularly around suicide support as well, which were overrepresented, which is a which is terrible. Um, health care and wellness. Um, absolutely. Making sure that our our DH BS and all our health providers have the funding plans, but also practical applications They're actually putting in place. Um, better health care for people. Um, particularly trends, but not not exclusively. Um, 15 seconds. [00:37:00] Oh, hang on time. Um, funding, uh, New Zealand aids to get, um, to end AIDS. We can do it. Um, reviewing the blood donations. Um, also got some stuff on gender diversity. Sorry, Um, including identification papers as you see fit. Um, and also justice and fairness, making sure our justice system is fair. Thank you. Iona. Damien. And finally, Stephen. A colleague told me that before, Um, he said it's easier to come [00:37:30] out as gay in the act party than it is to come out as an act supporter with his gay friends. So it tells you how far we've come. But while we're now mostly equal before the law, there are some challenges our community faces out of proportion to our numbers. Uh, mental health issues such as depression and anxiety are ones that I myself am only too familiar with. And that's why I'm so passionate about trying to help other people too. And while I'll be announcing a mental health policy in world record time, government expenditure [00:38:00] on health per head of population is at its highest level. It has ever been in 2017 and that's been the trend since 2009. Our number of practising physi physicians at three per 1000 is the highest level ever, and the number of psychiatric beds available is double 2009 levels. Despite the surveys by the Ministry of Health show that patient satisfaction is at its lowest level since 2006. So we don't have a problem with resources. What we have a problem with is structure. New [00:38:30] Zealand's health system is bureaucratically top heavy, with 20 DH BS governed by 11 members, seven of which are elected every three years. Their books are a mess with a collective deficit of $90 million. We need to restructure this model to make it more efficient use of taxpayer resources. Replacing the 20 DH BS with five Health administration territories and their boards will be professionals wholly appointed by the Ministry of Health. 70% of people who commit suicide have [00:39:00] no prior contact with mental health providers. So this shows that the greatest gains our government can make is through awareness campaigns to make people aware of services available and that can be done with with individuals sharing their personal stories. Finally, new innovations need to be made in developing existing mental health sector to make better use of the resources allocated and eliminate waiting lists for treatment, the [00:39:30] ACT Party will set up a $30 million trial fund to be divided amongst the mental health departments of the five HATS. That's the Health Administration territories and they will identify and liaise with various non-government organisations in the area. Now I knew that would happen with three pieces of paper. Now those non-government organisations could be charities. They could be char uh community groups or they could be private health enterprises. [00:40:00] Patients will be provided with the opportunity to commence their treatment via these non-government organisations as an alternative to waiting on the public health list and the cost of going through those NGO S will be fully funded by the government. Continual part participation by these NGO S will depend on the arrangements that they've made and targets that have been set if they meet those targets and get our mental mental health waiting lists down, they'll continue with us. If they don't, [00:40:30] they won't. Um I think that this will be a bit more innovative than just throwing more money at it, as we've been doing for the last 2030 years. And I think if we want a different result, it's time we tried a different approach. Thank you very much, Kilda. Stephen. OK, we'll now open it up to the floor for questions. So there are a few rules around our questions. Obviously, we're going to run out of time, so please don't have [00:41:00] your own speech. Just ask your question. If you have a particular party you would like to direct your question to, then just let us us know and stand up. Use the mic that's going to be floating around the floor. Jim, our fellow rainbow Wellington board member, has a microphone. Um, Richard, also, do you want to get amongst the floor? We can have a couple of people flying around. OK, um, hands up. Who has a question? Uh what, uh what will you do? Uh, this is all the candidates. Uh, what will you do to address, [00:41:30] uh, queer and trans homelessness in particular among youth. OK, who would like to answer that question? We'll just fit a couple of you in homelessness. I think that's, um you know why I'm standing here today for the top party. I mean, it's it's it's a real issue. We all need homes. And at the moment, we've got enough bedrooms in New Zealand for everybody, but we don't have everybody in them. Um so the the approach to tax assets, um, [00:42:00] and reduce the tax on income that will make 80% of us better off financially will also reduce the amount of investment that been made and houses. It will take the heat out of the housing market, and houses will become more affordable. At the same time, the Opportunities Party has got a renters. Was there anyone else who wanted to answer? Jan. Let's get to you. Um, so we've got a comprehensive response to housing [00:42:30] and addressing homelessness and improving renters rights as well. I would also say that I do think that there needs to be a queer, specific, specific response for emergency housing, Um, in particular. But I was I was lucky to be part of big sleep out in Auckland and raising funding for a specific trial for, um, a queer lead community development response to homelessness in the community up there. And we need to be spreading that around the country. The needs are specific [00:43:00] and that the generic response won't work. Thanks, Dan Grant. Sure. Yeah. So, um yeah, homelessness, I think, is the biggest sort of indicator that there's a serious systemic problem with inequality. Um, and the inequality between the wealthy and the the poorest. Um, And I think there's a huge advertisement for nationals, uh, policy on social housing, which is the Gordon Wilson Flats, which the Environment Court [00:43:30] has recently found should be declared a national, um uh, protected monument because one of two examples of housing blocks that have been built by the national party. So Grant Yeah, they'd have to come from the forties or fifties if they were. Um, I just really want to back What? What? Essentially what? Jan, um, has said but one and say that the critical thing here is actually so and fixing the overall housing crisis. And I want to make two points one you don't sell [00:44:00] state houses in the middle of a housing crisis. You build state houses, and that's what we've got to be doing. The second point is to pick up Jan's point on the fact that we actually need Queer Pacific strategies to address homelessness. I've been working with a group of 16 to 18 year olds in Wellington who are homeless, who actually cannot get access to housing New Zealand because they're under 18 and they can't sign a lease. We actually do need to work on, um, Collective Solutions, Wellington City Housing, New Zealand To address that [00:44:30] one more. OK, we'll go to Stephen. The Act party released its policy two weeks ago. Um, it's quite simple to get the housing market working like it should, uh, we would abolish the metropolitan Urban Limit around Auckland, and that would open up room for 600,000 new homes in Auckland. Uh, simple economics. If you restrict supply to housing, the price goes up. So we need to get [00:45:00] rid of the limits on housing so that the market can meet the demand. And finally, Nicola, um uh, just first to say that you do take down houses when they're full of mould. They're not insulated, and they're not warm and dry places for people to live, and then you build better ones. And that's what we're doing. And we've committed to building 2000 a year in Labour are only committed to building 1000 a year, so that's an interesting contrast. But anyway, in terms of your question, which is about homelessness, we are committed to the housing first approach, which says, [00:45:30] Put a roof over someone's head and then wrap the services around them in order to keep them in that tenancy. And that would apply, uh, to the Trans and queer community as well. Uh, just a note. Um, try and keep your questions directed to three or four parties and we'll try and keep the answers, um, limited about 30 seconds or a minute, because we will run out of time. So, Jim, my question is, to the top candidate, um, Gareth Morgan has been quoted as [00:46:00] saying, Oh, well, I've heard the top party describe to me as the Green Party without the identity politics, and I thought that that was pretty accurate. Um, I've heard Gareth Morgan mention his disdain for the identity politics personally, Um, both in his visit to Vic and in his most recent live video from GSB. Um, Rainbow is identity politics. That's what we are. Uh, he also used the word he used the word pansies as a gay slur in the video from Gisborne. So [00:46:30] I just I I don't see how you actually had any queer policy to address here, So I'm just wondering how you expect us to stand up for your right that he used the word pansies and the video from as a slur to refer to gay people he didn't use it to refer to, but he had a specific question for a specific answer. OK, just getting getting the detail on that I. I Yeah, how annoying for him to say [00:47:00] such such things, You know that I'm annoyed, too. And, um, yeah, at the moment, I'm getting used to, um, to standing here as a politician. There are There are things that that I care about and that I'm going to put my energy and concern into, and that's addressing, um, lack of housing for so many people here. Um, the fact that climate change is hitting us like a tonne of bricks and and that we all need to be, um, fighting that and taking action [00:47:30] on it and not worrying about what, Gareth? Ok, Jim, we've got a few questions down here. My particular question is highly specific. It's to the conservative and also the Social Credit Party. Could you please tell us if you have a GL BT IQ, uh, policy and if so, just briefly what it is? And is that policy published on your website? Thank you. I'll beat [00:48:00] the time limit. No, we don't have. And no, I don't think it is on the website. Um, we you know, I wish that I could say we had a specific, um, policy, but, um, I think that our party can really say that, uh, we have such a central focus on human rights. Um, is is so fundamental, you know, we want it to be part basically constitutional so that it's above the level of political football. Um [00:48:30] uh, just in just in relation to housing. If I can slip that in now, we we have the old Labour Party from the first Labour Party, uh, policy from 1935 where they use reserve bank credit, uh, for housing so that we're gonna go to the left hand side of the room. Hands up. Yes. Hello. Um, I just wanted to ask a question, um, to Gael and Jan. But if anyone else wants to answer, they're also welcome. Um, it was just about, um, from someone who has been a beneficiary. [00:49:00] Um, over the last term. Um, I've got a lot of concerns about beneficiary rights and particularly the, um, obviously IANS. Already an already talked about the, um, homeless problem. But I also see a correlation between the homelessness and the tightening of beneficiary rights and access to welfare. And I want to know what's going to be done to tackle how that particularly affects trends in queer people in our communities. Thank you. [00:49:30] Yeah, It's, uh it's disgusting the way beneficiaries are treated like criminals, you know, because there was there was a time there was a time when there was no no unemployment in New Zealand. Right. And you know, this whole idea that beneficiaries are not working because they're lazy? What happened in the 19 eighties to make everyone lazy? Yeah. Yeah, What he said, um, like, [00:50:00] yeah, but This is a big focus for us in this election. We've put it all on the line to try and change the culture of work and income. That is dehumanising and stigmatising. The Human Rights Commission did a survey a couple of years ago looking at discrimination New Zealand, the most discriminated against group in the country where people receiving benefits and we've got to change it. We've got to end the financial sanctions and the cruelty of that system [00:50:30] and check out hashtag we are beneficiaries that Sam Orchard from Auckland is doing Yeah, Jim. Thank you, sir. Hello. Good evening. My name is Ni I am from, uh, Ethiopia Community Chairman and I'm a former refugee. So through my 12 years being in New Zealand, [00:51:00] I enjoy it. It's my country. I love everybody. It is great. But one thing I really upset, really disappointed. There was around 3 million refugees from Africa suffering in the different places. Most of them indeed in the ocean anyway, So before I go there, I have a question for [00:51:30] National Party. I spoke on the front Immigration Minister and we've been discriminated. The refugee quota, the refugee from Africa, the door was closed a long time ago. But yes, there is a lot of people from Middle East other countries appreciate Great. Why? Why not from Africa, [00:52:00] are we because of the colour or we are not good people. We are naughty. We are contributing everything. What we can through everything. So as a community leader, I've been through they We are the hard worker people, which we came from the very hard life and appreciate We make things. Most of the refugee people who came and the family are there. They are [00:52:30] the bone for the economy. Doing what? Most of our kiwi people, they don't do it cleaning the first thing they will say. I wanna get a job cleaning. They say yes. OK. Why is the why is we've been discriminated. I'm asking National party. I don't know. And then what is for the other parties? How we work together. Thank you. [00:53:00] Thank you for your question. First, can I just say welcome? Thank you for coming to New Zealand. It's great to have you here. And, um absolutely. We in the National Party appreciate the contribution of the African community to New Zealand. We welcome you here Um, and in terms of the refugee policy, um, I am not aware of any discriminatory policy, uh, within our refugee approach, which would preclude people from Africa coming here. And if there were such a, [00:53:30] um, inclusion in the policy, that would be, um, wrong. So I welcome you. I affirm you in the contribution that your community makes to New Zealand. Yeah, Yes, there are. There is discrimination against refugees from Africa and the Middle East. No, outside of the emergency quota for the Syrian refugee crisis. There is a policy that restricts refugees to people only having existing family members. So I thought [00:54:00] long and hard as to why, when there is one of the biggest humanitarian crises of our of our time, why there is this strange policy targeting Africans and Middle Eastern refugees, and I've come to the conclusion that it is inexplicably racist. So yeah, that's probably the answer to your question. OK, anything like that, we're gonna go to the left. Down here is, um my question is to labour and the green candidates. So, obviously both your parties have comprehensive rainbow [00:54:30] policies, which is really good. If New Zealand votes to change the government this year. Which one of those policies would you most want to make happen in government? What? Well, you go first because I've got so many good ones. I want to think about it. I I'm gonna use one of those politician answers and and say that it's getting the strategy and the cross government approach so that we get change in health care. We get change in work and income, we get [00:55:00] change in housing and we get it right across the board for everyone. Because actually, we've waited too long, actually, Um and and it is, really it's like choosing your favourite child. You know, you don't want to do that. Uh uh. So all all of the policies, um, fit together as part of an agenda for fairness and equality. But if I really have to pick one thing out, I feel like from the last Labour government, we've got real unfinished business and our support of the transgender [00:55:30] community, both in terms of the rights issue and the health care issue. And I feel a personal, uh, burden to do something about that. OK, questions. Hi. Sorry. I don't know if you guys are aware, Uh, this is for Labour, the conservatives and national. If you guys are aware of Karl Popper's paradox of intolerance, where if you have a tolerant society who supports intolerance, you end up having intolerant people who take over, [00:56:00] Um, in light of an event such as we recently had in Charlottesville, should we start cracking down on people who are gonna start being intolerant of the LGBT Q I community in New Zealand? Who would like to take that first? Um, it's well, since I read K Popper, but, uh, yeah, look, I I've got quite a strong view about the fact that we don't have strong enough laws on hate speech in New Zealand, and I do think we need to do more on that. But I've got a really specific point I want to make about tolerance. I'm absolutely [00:56:30] sick to death of the word tolerance in relation to our community. Uh, I want us to focus. I want us to focus on acceptance and embracing diversity and then celebrating diversity right across our country because that will make us the best possible country. So let's ditch the tolerance and take the journey to acceptance celebration OK, thank you very much. I think it for everybody in [00:57:00] New Zealand. We should all be aware of the fact that we are all immigrants from somewhere or the descendants of immigrants from somewhere, and everybody should be treated equally, given a fair go. I think that's what the the Kiwi dream is that everybody in this country gets a fair shake regardless of what they are, who they are or any any particular group they attach to. And that's that's my view. That's the view of the conservative Party. Well, I'll have to see you afterwards so I can [00:57:30] add that to my postelection reading list. Um, because I haven't, um, been familiar with it in the past. But look, uh, the way I the way I see it, is that as politicians, we have an obligation as public figures to call out hate speech when we see it or to call out bad behaviour when we see it. Um, because we as leaders in the community, um, can have an impact that way. Um, I do have respect for the notion of free speech. Um, but where that starts going downhill into being violent speech, Um, [00:58:00] then you know, we make we must use the law to come down on those things. Thank you. Um, in a free country, freedom of speech is probably about the most important value we have. And so that's why we cannot have laws banning hate speech. Uh, people like Brian Tamaki, he's a scumbag piece of shit, but he has the right to express his shitty views. And we also have the right to call him out on how shitty those views are. That's what freedom is about. [00:58:30] Thank you for your question. This is a question for act specifically. Um what about people with free speech? Who, um, are told to go kill themselves or, you know, um, yeah, if trans people in particular, if people tell you to jump off a bridge, do you do it? No, of course not. It it is disgusting speech. It is disgusting speech, [00:59:00] but that is part of living in a free country. And that is why you have the freedom to tell these people how disgusting they are. OK, Now, um, thank you. I don't really, uh I I I'm a socialist, so I don't read. Um, but II I went through a phase. I went through a phase, but, um, no, no, I Well, look, anyway, talk about that later. Look, um Hey, look, Fascists. People Who did you know that committed [00:59:30] the crime at Charlottesville? They're not. They don't play by the rules of speech. You know, um, the idea is you have a marketplace of ideas, you know, and like, you change your mind if you're proven wrong. But they are thugs. They are thugs who who who suppress people, oppress people. Right? So there's no reason with them Hate speech legislation is not the worst thing. So my my question is addressed to the [01:00:00] empty chair. Why is the the Maori Party not represented? Why is Maori not mentioned nor the discussed at all? Uh, the Maori party were invited. Um, unfortunately, they had no candidate who was available. Likewise, New Zealand first were invited, uh, initially said that they could come, but they were unable in the final event. [01:00:30] Um, in terms of the cross party group within parliament, and actually, I've found them constructive. Um, I've got a question for Mr Lynch. Um, you have come and talked about tax policy and about the importance of um, a mother and father [01:01:00] in a family. Did you understand what this forum was when you were going to come here? Yes. Yes, I did. And I'd like to thank you all for not throwing fruit at me. I realised when I came here tonight that my views may not go down exactly with everybody else. But the one question I'd like to and I'm just saying that they are talking about optimum not only family arrangement, but I'd like to [01:01:30] people here if they'd like to put up their hand Anybody who is not the product of a father's sperm and a mother's egg. OK, there was a question down here. Um, I would follow up, Christian, but I don't want to give them any more air time, to be honest. Um, So, um, my question is to, um Nicola Willis. [01:02:00] Um, basically, uh, over the last nine years, real in real terms, funding for health has decreased around between 1. 7 and $2. 3 billion. Um, those figures are kind of thrown around, but they're pretty much agreed on that there's been a decrease in real term funding. Um, at the moment, because there are? No, Um, there's currently no, um, surgeons in New Zealand that can do gender reassignment surgery. Why, over the last nine years, has funding decreased for, um, DH BS in real terms? And why, after nine [01:02:30] years, is there no one that can do gender reassignment surgery? So can I just first say that those figures aren't broadly agreed on? Uh, they're a subject of a lot of debate in this election campaign. I want to acknowledge that in real terms, our health budget has gone from about 6% of GDP in the, um nine years ago to about 6. 5% of GDP. Now it has increased from 11. 9 billion to 16. 7 billion. [01:03:00] And when you look at that on a per capita basis, it amounts to an increase. So you can argue that there have been cuts, but it is very hard for me to understand how the number 16. 7 is less than 11. 9. What that has meant is that DH BS around the country have had more funding. But to your specific question, which is on the issue of surgeons to carry out trans surgery, I did look into that issue as I was preparing for this forum. And I understand that that's about, um, how much surgery is carried out and the need for them to continue to be doing that regularly. Um, [01:03:30] and it's something I would like to look into further. Yeah, um, I just II I stand to be corrected on this if I'm wrong, but I understand that the waiting list could be cleared for as little as $5 million by using, um, overseas. But in Australia, where they've got access to it. So the $5 million in the scheme of things is pittance. I mean, we throw $26 million at a flag referendum we can't find, you know, $5 billion for surgery. It's It's just it is insane. So we can do it. Um, I think the honest answer is it's a question of priorities. [01:04:00] Um, and I don't think this government sees it as a priority, which is a real deep concern. Um, and it it it goes to the health care across the board. They've cut funding. Um, they're trying to save costs. I understand that, um, but I think health care is something we cannot afford to be cheap on. Thank you. True. I This is something that I feel quite strongly about because some of my very close friends, um, have have gone through this process. Um, I just think it's really bizarre that, you know, gender reassignment is still so medicalized. You have to be diagnosed [01:04:30] with a mental illness, you know, to to be able to to have it, you know? I mean, it's it's it's bizarre. I think we just need to change the way that, um, you know, Trans people are are viewed, you know it. It's a fundamental problem and they Yeah, it's it's disgusting and it's it's bizarre to me. I think there's a lot of work that needs to be done. We do need to de pathologize um, being Trans. We also, [01:05:00] um, need to ensure that there's a nationwide strategy for health care and that its ability to get surgery as well as Endo, um, easily accessible right across the country. And if it means clearing the backlog of people waiting who have been told it's going to be their entire life before, they'd get the surgery here in New Zealand by going overseas. That's probably what we need to do. But we need to actually train and build up the capacity for people to be able to have the aftercare service in this country, which is not [01:05:30] a reality when people have to travel overseas. So because of the quick bell, everything that Jan just said is correct. But I do want to take up the point about the overall funding of health care because it is simply not true to say that our health budget has kept up with inflation and our growing population. It just hasn't. The work we did was done by info metrics. It says that it's $2. 3 billion and everything you see [01:06:00] in the health care system today. You must see it through that lens. Yes, it's about priorities. But it's also about actually saying we're gonna prioritise funding for health. Yeah, yeah. I was just about to hand this, uh, microphone to someone to ask a question, but there's a dearth of questions coming from the back of the room. So if anybody wants to get brave in a minute and they have a question, um, it'll be great. Hello? Just, um, a question specifically about biphobia in [01:06:30] the Rainbow community. Bisexuals have particularly high mental health issues, and bisexual women experience, um, sexual violence at a much higher rate than homosexual and straight women. So I'm wondering if anyone has any specific policies to deal with biphobia both within the Rainbow community and beyond. Who would like to take that Jan again? For me, that comes back to developing our own services and making sure that the mainstream services are accessible for everyone but that actually, we start [01:07:00] funding and resourcing the development of buy social services that include mental health care that is specific. So you don't have to worry about whether this person is gonna understand you or whether they're going to be perpetuating the prejudice that you've been experiencing around you. And we need to go back into the schools in terms of that elimination of discrimination that's happening in that really early stage. Did anyone else want to take the question just just [01:07:30] really briefly? It is about the creation of those policies and you know, Jen made the point earlier about the number of district health boards who had no policies whatsoever when it came to the support and health care of trans. Uh uh, People the same applies right across our communities. Uh, and we'll only get that if we actually say that, that is what we want the district health to do, or we want other services to do. And, you know, the lobbying and advocacy of people in this community has made a really big difference in that regard. But it does come down to [01:08:00] those government agencies understanding that it is their job to provide fair and equitable services for everybody. Sorry. Um, I just want to add I agree with what's been said, but I just wanted to add, I guess I think the schools is a big, important part of it. We need to get, um, a proper support to our schools so that at a young age, that's being understood. Um, and I But I also agree with what Grant said is that I think government has to take a role in that, Um, I think attitudes are slowly changing. Um, but, um, [01:08:30] tolerance isn't enough. It needs to be inclusive. Um, an understanding of it, um, people talking about it is really important. So people understand that Hey, this is not unusual. Um, and, um, but I think the government taking a lead and make it really clear that that kind of behaviour is not acceptable is absolutely critical for it. Thanks. Uh, Jim. And then we'll go down here. Um, I would like to hear from any candidate willing to to state clearly [01:09:00] how they believe the they should honour the Treaty of Waitangi. In terms of further legislation. I believe the track record to date is somewhat appalling. And I I'm interested to hear, um what everyone's attitude is going forward. OK, I'll get this. I think one of the, um, important things to to the top party is to to properly [01:09:30] honour the treaty and to understand what that means to understand that it's, um, about, um, ownership of resources and the use of those resources. Um, and and that's really important that the um, Gareth Morgan did announce on the weekend that a non-negotiable for top is to maintain Maori seats and, um suggested that it should be people with specific Maori interests that are, uh, um within those seats, [01:10:00] um, so that they can be represented fully without interference from other other interests. Um good. Good question. Um, look, uh, the Treaty of Waitangi guaranteed sovereignty to the indigenous people and that has not been honoured in any meaningful sense. When you look at the fact that 60% of the female prison population, 50% of the male prison population are Maori, there is a system of disenfranchising [01:10:30] and stripping Maori of their of their sovereignty and their manner. So, yes, we call for and we also call for open borders with the Pacific because we believe that the immigration policy should be based on Thank you for the question. Um, for the greens is one of our foundation principles is honouring or wait. And it's, you know, acknowledgement of that enables us to be here in in this [01:11:00] country. Um and so we announced just recently a policy that we would, um, for us. None of the settlements have been full and final, and so that we are open for those to be renegotiated and I, I would say for I don't think we get much of an idea around this. I said in on some of the hearings on this, and I was appalled as this naive to find out that the crown sees what language is able to be used in the retelling [01:11:30] of the history. It's another act of political power and displacement of Maori, and it needs to be undone. OK, The act the Act Party fully supports the Treaty of Waitangi. It established three things, uh, British sovereignty, the rights of British subjects for Maori and protection of private property rights for Maori. And, uh, we oppose the foreshore and sea foreshore and seabed leg, leg foreshore [01:12:00] and seabed legislation. We oppose that because we think there was a disgusting abuse of property rights and the right to go to court and will also point out we have voted for more Treaty of Waitangi settlements than the Green Party. Thank you. OK, we had a question down the back. Yes. Um so education is something that I guess has come up for a lot of people. And I'd just like to know a little bit more about, um for those parties who have education policies, what that might look like because [01:12:30] teachers are already so stressed and national particularly for you. If classroom sizes increase any more. I'm concerned about how teachers might view added restrictions and education around, uh, the rainbow community. If that would just become more onerous for them and actually be counterproductive. OK, we'll go to Nicola first. Um so the the first thing is to recognise that the New Zealand curriculum requires [01:13:00] schools to ensure that Children are included and that they are do not have their rights abused in any way and that they're accepted, Um, in all of their diversity. The the second thing is that we have had, um, sexual health guidelines that were updated in 2015 about the way that sexuality is taught in schools and that there are some updated and clearer guidelines about making sure that people of all sexualities and genders are made to feel included in that teaching. Um, there has been a lot of discussion about whether more, um, whether [01:13:30] more should be done with the guidelines that are available to schools. And we have been listening to that. Um, but I, I really hear your point, which is we have to be really careful before we give another dictate to a school about what they do. Um, allowing schools to do what's right in their communities is an important principle of the New Zealand education system grant. So on the bit of paper that we handed out, you'll see some of the specific things that we want to do. But I want to answer your question, which is about the burden that's placed [01:14:00] on teachers. And I've got a couple of really specific things that will help free up some time, uh, abolishing national standards and actually, uh, supporting teachers to be the best teachers that they can possibly be through. Um, a big investment in professional development programmes, some of which will include the ability to actually be able to implement the sexuality, education guidelines and support to be able to provide that really inclusive environment. So [01:14:30] that but also, um, there's an example where, um, I want to talk about where Utopia in Christchurch and this is happening in some other places. So that's a queer based community organisation. They've gone into schools. They audit the school in terms of the safety of the spaces. They sit in on classes and audit them and provide the teachers with the feed back so that they can do it in an inclusive way. They look at the policies they talk and educate the teachers. And it's not just about changing the curricula or doing adding extra [01:15:00] things on. It's just about shifting what is being done so that it's inclusive and safe, and it can be done without being resource intensive. Uh, like the deputy leader of the Labour Party, I'm a big supporter of charter schools. Charter schools are working that. And, um, if we want to reduce class sizes, I think we need to reward teachers, uh, for for the work they do. And we need to pay the very best teachers much more money. Unfortunately, the PPT [01:15:30] A doesn't like that because it discriminates against the incapable teachers. But we believe in rewarding people for doing well. And that's how you'll improve education. Chris didn't get. I'm just thinking listening to the Tonight We're a very urban group of people, and I'm aware of how hard it is to grow up gay or queer in a country town or a provincial community. And I wonder if in where [01:16:00] some of these resources we're talking about just aren't available. What kind of policies have you got to reach out to all the other kids? And and for that matter. Adults take luck. Yeah, I just think that's such a great point. You know, we, um in this room are fairly like minded. And we should recognise that that is not always the case throughout New Zealand. And if we can expand the might of this room across [01:16:30] New Zealand, then more Children, uh, will grow up, uh, better in in this country. But in terms of your question, I I'm really impressed by the work that inside out has been doing. And one of the things they created was videos, um, which can be used for, um, discussing issues of sexuality and discussing rainbow Youth. Sorry, I'm sorry, but I, um, con conflated. I'd like to acknowledge your work and of course, those resources can be used anywhere in the country. And that is the value of technology and the value of organisations like Rainbow Youth coming up with resources that [01:17:00] can be used anywhere. Yeah, I mean, the point I was going to make I think it is a great point and I think we should never forget that For all the advances that we've made in New Zealand, there are still people who are are tonight. Really scared to be who they are, Um, all around the country. And so I think it's a really great point. Actually, when Nicholas said that we're a like minded room, I think there might be a bit of debate about that, but actually on this, But actually, on this point, I do want to say that actually, the key to [01:17:30] it is groups like schools out inside out, Rainbow youth being supported, uh, sufficiently to actually be in those communities. Nicky N has done some good things there, but we can build on that so that those, uh, young people, particularly growing up in rural New Zealand, see and meet people just like them and know that they can have a good life. OK, Questions. Yeah. Uh, hi there. Yeah. I just wanted to invite any of the candidates to come up and, um, discuss [01:18:00] any action plans that they had, um, around delivering, um, health care, especially mental health. Care to, um, the Takata community. Um, yeah. Cool. Thank you. Hands up. Yeah. Um, someone once said that, um, my, uh, campaign is just basically don't pick on migrants and socialism, so but look, I'll, um look what I what I think is, you know, absolutely. As I've said before, uh, we need to fund a community [01:18:30] organisations and, um, you know, we need we need more funding. And instead of shutting down funding for, you know, groups, like, for example, we need to increase funding. And I think we should tax the rich, tax them tax, their bones, tax their bones. Sure, John and I I it's kind of similar to the other answers, but I think we've got to resource to be able to develop [01:19:00] the strategy and give them the resources to be able to roll it out. There's, you know, the government has explicitly excluded and from groups from the mental health strategies in the past, and we've got to make sure that we're part of it, and we're driving it. There's a lot of knowledge and a lot of health giving, um, ways of being within those communities that we need to extend. Thank you. OK, [01:19:30] five minutes. If you've got a question. Get your hand up, Jim, down the front. Just want to talk about, um So obviously, earlier this year, um, Russia had a crisis with in Chechnya. Um, and I was I stood outside the Russian embassy with Jan, Um, and I know that Grant was also there. Um, but I just want to ask, in terms of in the government, Um, there was no we heard nothing from the national government in terms of a condemnation of the of the killings of of, um LGBT [01:20:00] QI a people in Chechnya. So I guess what is your human rights priorities? Because obviously here, you know, we we've got some great rights. We enjoy great rights. We've got progress. But around the world, it's a lot worse. So what would you do in in government to advance human rights for our community around the world? Who would like to take that question? As I said, I'm I'm not in government. I'm a candidate. And if I was in government, I would condemn that, uh, that [01:20:30] the actions in Chechnya as well, uh, and I think that in government, we have to, uh, where we see, um, where we see countries violating rights. Um, we have to speak out, but of course. Uh, we do that primarily through international organisations. Um yeah, and I think one of the things we've seen is if if a government doesn't come out strongly and condemn it, we all know that that they they either they don't care or they're they're effective to be endorsing it. And I think when New Zealand particularly we have some, we have some good rights in New Zealand. We're not there. We've still got a long way to [01:21:00] go. But, um, when we don't come out and condemn that loudly and clearly, when it happens, it's it's it's what? Frankly, it's embarrassing, I guess, is New Zealand. I kind of think Well, you know, we're actually standing up for this stuff. Are we only doing it in New Zealand because it gets us votes or or we actually believe in it. Um, but we need to be louder on this stuff, um, and and and people say, Oh, no, we don't want to risk our trade partnerships, But that's not If you can't talk to your trade partners and say Look, that's not acceptable, that's not acceptable. That's not acceptable. Then what are we doing out there? So we need to be responsible. We used to be a world leader in human rights, but we've let that slip and We need to, um, get back [01:21:30] to that. Um yeah, I. I think this is a test of whether or not we we really are affirming human rights. And I think it's actually really I'm really pleased you asked the question because, you know, there is an awful lot for us to do inside New Zealand. But where you are being killed for being who you are, Um, where you you know, we're a government. A state is sanctioning that we have to stand up. Which is why Jan and myself and other MP [01:22:00] S were up at the Russian Embassy. It's why we've talked to the Indonesians about Banda Aceh. It's why we continue to raise those issues in international for us. So it's it's in the written document. But it is actually, you know, I'm just making the point. There's a big policy here, but it is actually a really important thing. I hope that everyone goes away from here tonight, which is that we redouble our efforts to stand up for for our rainbow communities worldwide. Oh, yeah, absolutely. [01:22:30] Um, the the killings in the Russian Federation should be condemned. And, you know, the homophobic rise of homophobic conservatism in in that part of the world. Terrible. Um, let's welcome, uh, queer refugees from around the world. Um, yeah. We need to have a clear government statements around this. New Zealand actually traditionally has been really good in terms of promoting LGBT Q I rights through the United Nations. We have been one of the leaders around [01:23:00] that Lewis and I have been involved in international parliament S forums. There was security called because we tried to get a special topic on LGBTI rights. Um, and the Middle East and the African countries who want to kill us were, um, upset and the security were called, um and because it's got to happen, we do have the ability to use our voices here. And there are people in other countries who do not have that right, [01:23:30] without fear of death. As a responsibility for us to use the voice, we're gonna go online. We have a question online on the Internet. The Internet is talking to us. OK, so the question is it was a bit a little bit, uh, conversation before that. The LGBT rights and human rights are compassion, and it's about accepting other but and also [01:24:00] in the LGBT community. There is, uh, a more variety of people that believe in animal rights and veganism. What are the major parties? What is your opinion about veganism animal rights? Uh, in New Zealand, Who would like to take that question? I think the deathly silence means no one has vegan policies or animal rights policies. [01:24:30] So, um, sort of a hard thing to do without the Internet being in the room. Um, so So, yeah, we have, um we have a strong set of policies around, um, improvements for animal rights improvements for particularly farm animals in New Zealand as well. But, um, I just encourage people to go to our website to find that, um and I'm not a vegan. There was a, um There was a group, I think I. I think it's called animal action. Um, I can't remember the name, but they recently recently it was like a couple [01:25:00] of weeks ago, they did a report on all the parties. They spoke to all the parties about and they ranked them sort of top, you know, bad to worse. Bad to good. Sorry. Good to bad. Um, and there are good results. And I know some of the parties up here did quite well. Um well, the reason I'm talking about this because we did quite well, um, so, you know, Trump, But I can't remember the specifics, but, um, obviously, we need to do more for animals. Um, I know animal inspectors. More welfare. Um, there was a case recently with some, um, cows, town and south. Is there some horrible things? Um, and they got charged, like, a couple of 10 grand or something. It's just not enough. So, um yeah, there is [01:25:30] some information on the internet, but yeah, you know, it's really, really bad for animals. Uh, capitalism. It's really shit. Really shit for animals, you know, Because, like, uh, it is a system that promotes, uh, factory farming or waste of food and meat. It's a system that allows cows and, um, livestock to shit in the rivers. I don't know if I can say things like that, but, um, but yeah, OK, that's all I have to say. [01:26:00] Um, well, we like cats. I, uh But I also like a burger, so I've got to be honest about that. Um And look, there's been actually a lot of reform happening in the animal welfare space. Um, And during this parliament, the government has been working really closely with the agricultural sector in a number of areas, uh, to ensure that there are more humane practises on New Zealand farms. So, um, you can look at that legislation as a, um as a record of itself. [01:26:30] Mojo matters would kill me if I didn't stand up and say, um that we put a lot of work into animal rights. Um, and it's a very we've got a comprehensive policy in that space. She's been doing amazing work. Um, and like I, I actually get the link in terms of the question around veganism and compassion and that sense of our interconnectedness and responsibility to everyone. I'm not I'm not there yet and we don't have a policy on it, but But I understand where the question is coming from. [01:27:00] So you've got a question down here? I know that labour touches on on your policy already, but what specifically are any of you going to do to support queer parents trying to raise families? Um, my family, in particular I know has had horrific experiences with places like Plunkett. Um, any childcare providers and schools. So what specifically are you going to do to try and combat that? Um, absolutely. We we've [01:27:30] talked a lot about, like, more funding for groups and government need to fund things, and that's important. But I think one of the things the government is not good at doing is also making sure that the agencies in particular, uh, understand and are taking the lead on that. So we want to see more, um, specific policies, um, that are directing our government agencies in particular, um, to actually engage with and understand the responsibilities and how they can help and support. Um, because there's nothing worse than being a parent or something. And you're going along to a government organisation to get some help. Um, and then you just hit this wall of [01:28:00] I don't know who you are, what you're doing here. Um, so we need to do more, So funding is obviously part of it, But I think, um, education for particularly government agencies to get better and where they don't have the answers, they don't understand. We need to give them the resources and connect them with groups that can help them understand and learn. OK, one or two more questions answer that question. So, um, part the, uh, unconditional basic income, uh, that the Opportunities Party [01:28:30] will introduce, um, will go to parents of, um, of young Children to to people with young Children. Um, and that's irrespective of their orientation or any other demographic factors. So, um, it supports them. It it's It's an acknowledgement that that's an important role to play as far as treatment by agencies Go. Um, I'm not sure that we've got a policy on that, but it certainly support anything that made people feel welcome and included in our society. [01:29:00] All of us. Thank you. Thank you. We had a question. Yeah. Do you want to go down the back, Richard? And we'll take one more after that. Um, so, like, our current Prime Minister, uh, voted against the civil union and the gay marriage. Um, and now he's done a U turn and said that he actually does support it. So I guess my question is, uh, how are we going to foster a trust in parties that have back [01:29:30] sled on some of the things that they've said in support of our community. Great question. Who would like to take that look? You know, the marriage legislation through Parliament was a conscience issue for the major parties. So there were people in the Labour Party and people in the National Party who voted against marriage equality legislation. Um, but equally, there are a number of very strong voices in the national caucus who support [01:30:00] the rights of your community and stand up for them. And Nicky Kay has been really instrumental there. And I assure you, there are lots of voices coming through. Uh, that share that perspective. Thank you. Um, I just want to It was an opening. I can't not take it. Um, so for the greens, it's not a conscience issue. It's our policy. It's the thing of human rights aren't up to conscience. [01:30:30] Um, in the act party, everything's a conscience issue, because we like freedom of choice. Uh, in the 1986 vote, Sir Roger Douglas and Richard Prell, two people have done more to improve New Zealand than anybody else I can think of Voted for homosexual law reform. And when it came to gay marriage, John Banks, the, uh you know, the old homophobe John Banks. Well, he actually voted for marriage. Equality, too, because we turned on. [01:31:00] Yeah. Um, look, II, I think this is a really important point about how we actually get things to happen. And I just ask you to take a look at the parties that have driven change and the parties that continue to drive and support change. And, you know, I don't I. I completely acknowledge that Nicola is, you know, saying what she thinks and what she believes and that she will be an ally and a supporter for our communities. And and I think that's great, but but it's Yeah, and there'll be people. But [01:31:30] leadership does matter. And the signal that leaders send really really matters in terms of the way people feel in our country and our ability to make change. So that's the point I'd make Richard. How are we doing for time, OK? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Is there anyone who hasn't asked who would like to ask a question? Thank you again. Thank you for [01:32:00] opportunities. I would like to ask national. Sorry if I didn't pronounce your name. The reality people are facing I can assure I can tell you right now. The housing crisis is Yeah, the housing crisis. Is it? I'm going there. The housing crisis is yes, but because of the from housing New Zealand and then work [01:32:30] and it's not working. The system is not working. OK, I'm asking the question. I'm asking the question. OK? Is there any chance that the government is changing about housing and the working income combining together people suffering when you are in the power? Are you going to change it or you gonna leave it? That is it. Can I just first acknowledge that when it comes to leading change, I want to acknowledge Amy Adams, who [01:33:00] brought before Parliament the milestone legislation to expand homosexual convictions. Um, and who also worked with the parliament to get an apology. So that is leadership. And that came from national, Um, in terms of the housing question, I don't want to, um, take over the next five minutes by telling you all of our housing policy about three simple things. We are building more social houses. We are ensuring that there is more land released so that more developers can build more houses and we are funding uh, [01:33:30] to ensure that there is more emergency housing available in New Zealand. So we are working hard on this on all fronts. Uh, and this is an issue that we share a desire to make sure that housing is more affordable and more people, uh, can own their own home in New Zealand. Um, the National Party had a golden opportunity to to reform the Resource Management Act. A few months ago, United Future and Act got together to come up with a way that it could pass. National chose politics [01:34:00] over principle. They did a deal with the Maori Party which will have absolutely no impact on house prices without five act MP S in the next Parliament, we will not have the resource management Act reform needed to build 600,000 more houses in Auckland. What are their own? Um and that brings us to the close of our Q and a We are now going to mix and mingle. So for those of you who didn't want to put your hand up and ask [01:34:30] a question, please come and ask these guys anything that's bothering you or any concerns you have. We have food, drinks and refreshments at the back, so please hang around. Thank you.

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TITLE: Gareth Farr profile
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VOICES: Gareth Farr
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; 2010s; ABBA; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland Metropolitan College; Australia; Bjorn Ulvaeus; Boy George; Brent Coutts; Criminal Records (Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences) Act 2018; Devotion (Wellington); Don McGlashan; Drum Drag; During These Days (composition); During These Days (poem); Eastman School of Music (New York); Gareth Farr; Historic Convictions; Homosexual Law Reform; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Legislative Council Chamber; Lilith LaCroix; Lord's Prayer; Melbourne; Mercury Theatre (Auckland); Naming Ourselves (poem); New Zealand Symphony Orchestra; Parliament buildings; Paul Jenden; Philip Patston; Rochester New York (USA); St Andrew's on the Terrace; The Adventures of Priscilla; Queen of the Desert (film); The Glamaphones; United States of America; Wellington; Wellington Town Hall; William Shakespeare; activism; birthday; bullying; bum fucker; choirs; classical music; closet; composition; difference; drag; dresses; fa'afafine; facial hair; faggot; fairy dress; fakaleiti; gay; goatee; growing up; hair; hair style; homophobia; homophobic bullying; homosexual law reform; intermediate school; law; makeup; music; pardon; performance; politics; poof; poofter; primary school; queer; religion; rugby; school; secondary school; self confidence; setting text to music; sex; tape recorders; theatre; travel; university
DATE: 1 August 2017
YEAR: 2017
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Gareth. Uh, last year in 2016, there was, uh, a work of yours that was premiered called During these days, which was, um, as part of the commemorations of the 30th anniversary of homosexual law reform in New Zealand. And you said to me at that time when, uh, just before the premier that this was the first overtly gay political work that you had done. Can you tell me about that? Right. And I absolutely, I did. And, um, I I It's it's funny thinking about that [00:00:30] now because it was the first time anyone had asked me to write a piece of music that that spoke to, uh, a political gay theme. Um, and I guess you know, my music tends not to be about specifically anything. It's about the music, and it's always interesting being asked specifically to do something that that says to the audience what it is. Um, especially something. So, [00:01:00] um heated and topical, as it was at the time, because it was the anniversary and and way back dredging up my memories of being in my I guess, early twenties. Um, late teens? No, I was in my late teens and and sort of trying to channel that into a piece of music and I. I tend I tend not to do that. I [00:01:30] tend to let the you know, the notes on the piano, tell me how to write the music. So that was a really interesting one. And I guess I I looked to the text that I had, um I'd asked the the glamour phones, the the wonderful choir that sung it, um, to come up with a text for me. Uh, I was quite busy at the time, and I knew that I wouldn't have time to to to research it, [00:02:00] um, and they came up with two fabulous poems. Uh, and they really the two of them are are are are quite, um, different. There were two poems that we ended up with. Um, one was, uh, simply a a poem. That was, um, a list of all of the names that gay men and women had been called, Um, either supportively from the community, [00:02:30] uh, or cultural or derogatory, some hugely derogatory. And and it was a a fascinating exercise for me to translate that into a coral piece. And, uh, you know, there was there were things from the Pacific island community like, um and but they were It's also bum. [00:03:00] Yeah, And And it was really interesting to to to work with this poem, particularly collaboratively, because I did want to I did want the choir to have a say in how this would work and rehearsal. It turned out that, um, so many people wanted because I I'd assigned one word. And I think there are about 25 or something like that. Terms. And I just set up this texture [00:03:30] that the choir was just sort of sort of murmuring, murmuring. You can't really hear what they're saying, But then a soloist just speaks out gay, and everyone wanted bum fucker. I think I told you this the last time you interviewed me, actually, because I'd only just had that rehearsal, and it was like everyone wanted to say, Bum fucker. Well, I don't blame them. I would want to say it too, but, um, it was a It [00:04:00] was a really interesting process of of working with the choir and and the other the other text. Um, which was I is the poem that's called during these days. Um I. I had a much more lyrical romantic, uh, interpretation of that. So I kind of slammed them up against each other and just just, you know, I I What happened was worked. It [00:04:30] was wonderful. Did these texts resonate for you? Um, uh, personally, or were you more of a kind of an outsider looking at these texts in a kind of an objective kind of way? I think this this sort of goes way into how I interpret any text. Um, when I'm trying to set it to music and my struggle, maybe it's not a struggle, [00:05:00] but it's a it's two. It's two brains. It's my, um, emotional brain, my personal history brain and my composer brain. And my composer brain always goes straight to How is that going to sit? Um, as far as the scan of the music goes, as far as the inherent rhythm that the poet has already [00:05:30] or lyricist has already put into those words that I need to pay attention to, um and that for me, that always comes first. Because IIII I do adore setting words to music. II I, you know, working with Paul Jen for so many projects um uh, it's it's one of my favourite things to do. Uh, and I I've I've said a lot [00:06:00] of text to music. Um, but the first thing is always the composer brain comes in and says, OK, you got to figure out what that rhythm that that poet is trying to tell you. Um and then the other level is, what do I think of it? And often I have to remind myself, you know, two weeks into the process going Hey, you actually haven't read this as a poem. You've [00:06:30] just been like da da da da da da da da da da da You're just trying to find these rhythms and just just read it. And what does this say to you? So I think it was exactly the same with this process. You know, I. I had to sit back and go, OK, think about these words. Think about these words. And that's where the, um well, in this particular piece, that's where the darker images came from, where [00:07:00] I really thought, you know, it's a celebration, but you can't ignore the bad shit. You know, you cannot ignore that. It has to be part of this thing. So there are a lot of bits that I loved it when we performed it at Parliament as well, because the the concert in at Saint Andrews was, um, you know, was one thing but so good at Parliament. There's all these sort of spooky [00:07:30] whisperings, sort of sound like a black mess. At times. It's like, Oh, it's the Great Hall at Parliament. Lovely. So you were saying earlier that you would have been a teenager during law reform in the mid eighties? Um, what was your experience of that time? I had this overlap of, uh, finally being free of high school. Even though I went to a fabulous high school, I was [00:08:00] still slightly close, Um, when I went to university, which would have been about 86. And so there was this transition for me that coincided with the transition of New Zealand society into dealing with homosexuality, um, politically, in in their face and just dealing with it. [00:08:30] And so it was very gentle for me. There was a real sort of lovely cross fade. Um, and before I knew it, um, you know, things were legal and I was already thinking I I have no idea what it would have been like to for it not to be legal, because I was 18 and I had a lot of friends who were a generation older than me. [00:09:00] Um, you know, and just, you know, seeing seeing on the news recently that people that got men have been pardoned for having sex. I mean, I laughed when that news bulletin came on, but it's I guess it's it's not funny at all. It's horrendous. But I just laughed because it's unthinkable that that that would happen in this country. But [00:09:30] a lot of things, you know, it it it doesn't take a lot of decades to to change, to change the world. So did you ever feel, um, as a teenager that that kind of sense that, uh, the the criminality did Did you ever think that you were illegal? No, Absolutely not. II, I I don't even think I don't even think I knew it was illegal when [00:10:00] I was a teenager. I, I would say my really conscious, uh, gay years were about 13, 14, 15, 16. And then that was the th Those years were the ones where I was figuring out, OK, this is not what everyone does. And I am a little bit different in many [00:10:30] ways, and I No, I don't even think I would have known it was illegal. But also at the time, you know, for me, it was it was about dreamy things like, um, hairstyles and music choice and things like that. It it it It wasn't about sex ever for me as a teenager. [00:11:00] And were you accepted as a gay teenager, then I've always felt that, um, that I've always been out and that there was this brief period, Um, when I was about 11 or 12, 11 and 12, that just sucked the life out of me as far as who I thought [00:11:30] I was. And, you know, when I was, um, when I was seven, my dad worked at the Mercury Theatre. He was an actor at the Mercury Theatre, and he brought home all of these costumes one day. And this is the blue fairy dress. Oh, I love the blue fairy dress. Yeah, and I used to wear it when I was about six or seven, and that was no problem [00:12:00] at home. It was no problem. whatsoever at home and, um, primary school from all the way up, uh, up to I guess. What? Uh, 11 years old, there was never any issue, and then I went to intermediate school. Um, I hope these things don't exist anymore, but it's this awful thing of two years in a school where [00:12:30] you suddenly don't know anyone. And, well, I don't know if it's part of the part of the technique of designing an intermediate school, but the bullying was unbelievable for me. It was terrible. Um, so I had two years of I've suddenly being called a faggot. I had no idea what they were talking about. Um [00:13:00] I thought I thought Bjorn from eba was pretty dishy. And I look at photos now and I go. Gareth, Gareth! Gareth. What were you thinking? But I did I. I thought he was OK, but they call me Puff at intermediate school, not at primary school and not at high school. Because, you know, we were all adults by then. The two [00:13:30] years of intermediate school they got me. And now I think back and I How the fuck did they know? I didn't even know I didn't know what any of that meant. I didn't know what any of that meant. But two years of bullying at that age is enough to need years of therapy, darling. And I [00:14:00] think that, you know, there's a slow sort of cross fade back into normality at the age of 20. Um oh, you lost the plot now? Well, in those intermediate years, I mean, when you didn't know what proof was when you didn't know what they were kind of abusing or bullying you for what was going through your head. Well, I guess I was aware of the fact that I was different. [00:14:30] And I guess I was aware of the fact that I liked my differentness because I didn't like them because they were the, you know, the the the the horrible, horrible boys who were just saying things I didn't relate to smelling like I didn't relate to, Um, just my first [00:15:00] day, You know, actually, if you go back to primary school and, um, my mother could probably tell you more about this, but, um, first day of primary school, when I was five, I lined up in the girls line because I had no interest in lining up in the boys line because they were horrible and they smelt their head and they played rugby. And I I don't play rugby. [00:15:30] Um, but it it it's that that whole Yeah. Was it just the pupils, or was it also the teachers or structures In terms of, like, the intermediate bullying in primary school? I was allowed to be exactly who I wanted to be always, Um, intermediate was just this, you know, it was this barrage [00:16:00] of rules that, uh and you know, I. I have to say that, you know, this is I guess it was 1979 and 1980. Um, and we all sang the Lord's Prayer at assembly, you know, and they probably were some non Christians in the crowd. Me, um it it's [00:16:30] you know, when I when I hear kids who are at that age just tossing the word go around like they have no idea what it means and in a really negative way or calling a boy. Oh, you're a girl. So those [00:17:00] two years, how did that time affect you? So for me, um, these two years of intermediate school was just complete dip in self belief because I was a gorgeous kid and I had no problem wearing a dress. And I just did what I wanted to do. [00:17:30] And I was, But also, you know, I. I remember liking spanners and and I. I had a a reel to reel tape recorder that my dad had brought home from the Mercury Theatre. And I took her to bets, and I was really boy, and I was really girls, and it was all good. And I all of a sudden had this sort of brick thrown in my head. [00:18:00] Um, when I went to intermediate school, I don't know what it is about this, but everything was horrible for two years, and it took well, it took It took eight years to recover, and by the time I was just recovering was probably around my first or second year of university at Auckland [00:18:30] University. And then I just sort of think that, you know, Then I had to go. All right, I'm gay. Right? OK, now I'll be a gay grown up, please. And that's what I did. And you were saying earlier that when you went to university, you were slightly close and I'm just wondering what does slightly close mean? I think it's the It's the tail end of [00:19:00] a a dodo. It's this little bit here. There was just a little bit hanging over from I'm still a bad person and this is not right. And then Oh, my goodness, I've just met a gay person at Auckland University and he's also a composer, and he's a little bit cute and oh, fuck it. He's not interested in me. And [00:19:30] all of a sudden there was no backlash. There was no response. It was like, Oh, OK, well, right, let's get the fuck on with life. But this wasn't a time. So we're talking about the late eighties. This is 86. Yes. So I in wider society you've got, um, you know, really, uh, a lot [00:20:00] of kind of, uh, GB I political going on, you've got things that are rainbow communities are way more prominent, like the homosexual law reform and the activism have any impact on your life. At that time, I, uh I had a huge amount of things happen to me at the age of about 18. Um, I had just graduated from [00:20:30] a wonderful high school metro, Um, which was the alternative college? That pretty much let you do anything you want. And I was lucky enough to have Don McGlashen turn up as my high school music teacher. Um, so a lot was going on musically and at the same time, Um, III I was going What? I could actually [00:21:00] stop being embarrassed and ashamed about this thing that I like boys, and that was happening at the same time. And then university was happening at the same time, and it was like, Bam, bam, bam, bam! And it was all about music. It was all about music. And after things settled down a little bit at university, I suddenly thought, [00:21:30] OK, well, we can start thinking about this boy thing again. Um And then I went to the States to do my master's degree in Rochester, New York, and I. I was in this tiny little, um, community of of Drag in [00:22:00] upstate New York, in Rochester, New York. Um, we were just all about the show, and we were about putting on a show. You know, there were 200 people that turn up every single Sunday to see the show and it's It was so important and it was so important. And it was it was really important for that community because, you know, I mean I. I hate to say it, but Rochester, New [00:22:30] York, was a bit of a scary city. Um, there's no way you would walk down the street in downtown Rochester looking a little bit gay or even forbid hand in hand with your boyfriend. I mean, you'd be shot. Um, and it's it's cities like that in the States where you find the best drag shows because you have to have that. [00:23:00] You have to have that. Otherwise, um, where do you go? You know, So we were I was a drag queen in in in that show for, um for three years. So was that the first time you had done drag? Well, no. Um, I suppose the first time I did drag was putting on the fairy dress that my dad brought home [00:23:30] from the Mercury Theatre at the age of eight. But I, I, um I remember turning up in Rochester and people saying, You know what? This is amazing drag show here. I thought upstate New York, there's probably a whole lot of football players and dresses and I did go there and it was one of the best drag shows I've ever seen in my life. And I thought, Well, I've never done drag before at [00:24:00] how hard can it be? You know, I'm I'm used to being on stage, put on a dress and do it. And it was absolute nightmare. It was. The dress I bought from the $2 shop was was too tight. I couldn't remember the words. The lights were in my eyes and I got off stage and I thought, This is This is terrible. What am I [00:24:30] going to do? And I thought, Well, I'm going to have to figure out how to do it properly, So that's what I did. I spent the next week really figuring out how to do this, and I didn't let myself off the hook. I knew that nervousness is not going to be an issue because I've done this before. And next week I fucking nailed it. Yeah, and then I got And then [00:25:00] and then, you know, in a small town in America, it's very easy to get a following. I was like famous in my own town. So why drag again? I? I have to go back to little six year old seven year old Gareth, who likes to wear dresses. I don't know why you like to do that. Um uh the mid late [00:25:30] teens Gareth, who was absolutely gob smacked by boy George, When do you really want to hurt me? Came out. I was like, Oh, what's that? Who's that? What is that? That is that's something that I've never had a word for or a name for. [00:26:00] And there it is. And now it's just now it's boy George and, you know, I, I I've I've, um I've been to a gig of his in in Melbourne and stood 6 ft away from him and thought, I do want to burst up to you and say you have no idea what you did for me, but I think I'd just leave you alone. Might be Yeah, probably. Your security guards might punch me in the face, but, um [00:26:30] and then he did this beautiful DJ set and was wearing makeup and a beautiful diamante hat and still the the drag icon that I knew, but not drag. He was he had a goatee and still wearing eye makeup. And just this just this blend of what could be what can be [00:27:00] what anyone can be and a very just still so inspiring. So So where did lift your your drag persona come from? Well, she just Lilith appeared from nowhere. Um, I guess Lilith really appeared when I was studying in the States, and it was so much about, um, [00:27:30] you know, my friends at Eastman in New York saying, Go, go on. There's a show, you know? Go and have a look. Just go. And and I was like, Oh, for God's sake, I'm I'm from New Zealand. I'm doing a masters in composition. I'm gonna be the worst in the class. I'm from the bottom of the world and slowly but surely it occurred to me by seeing everyone else in the class. It was like, Yeah, actually, I'm kind of the top of the [00:28:00] class, right, Time to go to the drag show, and I did, and I thought, Oh, well, And it was just when, uh, Priscilla queen of the desert came out and they all thought I was Australian, so I thought I'd just milk that it's like, No, I'm from New Zealand. It's Oh, no, Never mind. I'm from Australia, and it just was it was just good timing, but that was absolutely a a stage [00:28:30] persona that I thought, Well, I can do this. This is what I do. I perform on stage. Why not do this as well? So you were back with Lilith in New Zealand in the early nineties? Yeah, after studying in the States, Uh, yeah, I. I came back to New Zealand and I felt that I'd had such fun, Uh, three years in the States doing a a drag [00:29:00] show, which was, you know, there were people who you know there was. You know, every Sunday night we did a drag show and there were 200 people there. Um, and they were fans, you know, and it's it was kind of funny, but it was It was so it was so addictive. Um, and I really I really took it seriously when I was, and I really learned how to do makeup and hair [00:29:30] and how to make outfits and, um, on, you know, $2. 50. And then when I got back to new Zealand. Uh, it was ban back to being an adult. Um, because professional life had just started for me at the same time. And so drag was potentially something that I would have to drop, [00:30:00] but the that didn't happen because I just couldn't drop it. It was so much. It had become so much a part of my life in that three years that I was in the States. You know, I spent three years developing everything I I did through a master's degree in composition, which was huge, huge, but also exactly the same time. [00:30:30] I spent three years developing a drag queen, which is a fairly unusual thing for most Masters composition students to say, I suppose, Well, and I think New Zealand hadn't seen this before. They hadn't seen a serious classical composer and a drag artist in the same in the same body. Well, I, I think that's what [00:31:00] I slowly over, I guess, a period of a year and a half two years. Um, I started to see that there there was no there was no press. And you see, the thing is, I I'm laughing as I'm saying this, but I find that hysterically funny. I do find this hysterically funny. And and this is so much a part [00:31:30] of my, um, my personality that is obviously a part of my drag personality. It's a part of my composer personality. It's a part of my neither of those personalities. They're all the same thing. And III I see drama and humour. I see humour in sadness. I see sadness in humour, and I this is this is nothing new. Shakespeare did [00:32:00] this quite a lot and I don't understand the initial. Um, it wasn't a backlash. I got a little bit of a maybe an eyelash. Uh, when I first came back that you you can't be doing these things at the same time. Gareth dear, I think you probably want to just, you know, just [00:32:30] do the composition thing. Just maybe don't try and mix it up with the drag thing. And I was like, You know what? Fuck it. No, no, absolutely. No. They are the same thing. Um, even though at that point I hadn't still figured out how to present them in a in a medium that made it make sense because I was still sort of doing lip syncing, but then wanted [00:33:00] to combine it with, uh, you know, orchestra or or or or drumming or percussion ensemble or all of these things. And I took me a long time to figure that out. And then I think about the devotion Festival say, was it 1997 where you were with the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra on one night, And then the next night you were doing drum drag in the same venue? Yeah, [00:33:30] kind of II. I have to look back on on that week as one of the most surreal weeks of my life. Um, commissioned to write the orchestral piece to, um, celebrate the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra's 50th birthday. Um, and to be one of the percussionists in that piece. And I deliberately made the percussionists the heroes [00:34:00] of the piece. Of course. Uh and then 24 hours later, um, the Devotion gay and lesbian dance party was in the same in the Wellington town hall. Same venue and I. I did this. I did this, um, dance lip sync percussion number with [00:34:30] a team of I don't know about 15 dancers rising up out of the floor on the Wellington town hall stage lift, which is usually only used to to get the bloody Steinway into the into the theatre. But I used it to get my ass out of the basement. Yeah, so that was That was an interesting week of my life. [00:35:00] You were saying about the 50th anniversary of the symphony orchestra. Next year, 2018 is your 50th birthday, and I'm wondering, what does that mean for you? Mhm. Fuck A lot more landscaping work, darling. It's a It's a tricky one. II. I don't [00:35:30] have anything profound to say. You'll get there, bitch. Just put that Gareth Watkins you'll get there, you bitch! And you're still look 10 years younger than me, for fuck's sake. We just do that one more time and I won't talk over it. Um, I can do that any time you like. Gareth, welcome you. [00:36:00] Um Now I've spilled a drink, for fuck's sake. Right. This is this is this is supposed to be getting too serious. Ok, um, mentioning the 50th anniversary of the NZO kind of leads me on to my final question, I guess, is that next year 2018 is going to be your 50th birthday. [00:36:30] And I'm wondering I mean, does that hold any significance for you, or what does that mean for you? Uh, well, for a start, I'm I'm planning a huge party, and I think I'm just gonna tour the world and take my party everywhere. I. I feel like I guess I feel like I'm an old all of a sudden and and I should I should be profound [00:37:00] about about my concepts. But truth be told, I'm not I I'm I'm still 22. I'm still I'm still figuring it out. And I, I like the fact that that every single project I'm given is just another another step. Um, no, I'm still 25. [00:37:30] 22 18, 17, 16, 12.

IRN: 1132
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/tiwhanawhana_celebrates_matariki.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004493
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089787
TITLE: Tīwhanawhana celebrates Matariki
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ani Waapu; Ariana Tikao; Kevin Haunui; Paul Diamond; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Alexander Turnbull Library; Ani Waapu; Aotearoa New Zealand; Ariana Tikao; Carmen Rupe; Catherine Bisley; Chanel Hati; Dominion Post (newspaper); Elizabeth Kerekere; Jack Trolove; Kassie Hartendorp; Kava Club (Wellington); Kerry Tankard; Kevin Haunui; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Lilburn Room; Linda Evans; Linda Martin; Mahinarangi Tocker; Matariki; Metiria Turei; Māori; Mātauranga Māori; Natalie Marshall; National Library of New Zealand; Ngāti Porou; Out in the Park (Wellington); Paul Diamond; Rainbow Wellington; Rangiora; Sara Fraser; Sian Torrington; Sydney; Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington; Te Reo Māori; Tommy Hamilton; Tupu-a-nuku; Tupu-a-rangi; Tīwhanawhana; Uru-a-rangi; Waipuna-a-rangi; Waita; Waiti; Wellington; colonialism; colonisation; facebook. com; femininity; hidden history; history; identity; korero; library; mana; mana wahine; mihimihi; narrative; persistence; photography; pridenz. com; rainbows; resistance; strength; takatāpui; taonga; transgender; visibility; wahine; wahine Maori; waiata; whānau; women; youth
DATE: 29 July 2017
YEAR: 2017
LOCATION: National Library of New Zealand, 70 Molesworth Street, Thorndon, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the Tiwhanawhana Celebrates Matariki event held at the National Library of New Zealand in Wellington on 29 July 2017. The event involved waiata, a special showing of the Wahine exhibition: Beyond the 'dusky maiden' Ki tua o te 'puhi kiri rauwhero', a showing of selected Maori material by curators of the Lesbian and Gay Archives (LAGANZ) and a community discussion about the role of women for Takatapui (this recording only features the welcome and community discussion). A special thank you to the participants for allowing this event to be recorded and shared.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, uh [00:00:30] uh uh [00:01:00] [00:01:30] uh uh. [00:02:00] Ah! Uh uh [00:02:30] uh Ah. Give me a more Uh uh [00:03:00] [00:03:30] [00:04:00] OK, monkey that. Yeah, there more to it. No luck out there. Oh, Oh, [00:04:30] by a day, we can get that out. Bye to I get to Hello? Yeah, [00:05:00] yeah. Happy day him. Bye. I [00:05:30] here. Uh [00:06:00] uh uh, Or, [00:06:30] uh, yeah. Uh [00:07:00] uh uh uh [00:07:30] uh uh [00:08:00] uh. We here to, uh uh [00:08:30] um uh [00:09:00] uh. Just a quick welcome to our community who come here today we sing a little song about We've just started learning So a [00:09:30] Should we just stand over here [00:10:00] [00:10:30] [00:11:00] but mhm I I [00:11:30] Yeah. [00:12:00] Hey. White White to Kingdom [00:12:30] killed us. I, um Yeah. Oh, very special. Special day. Um, today I would just share one. [00:13:00] that just popped into my mind listening to you guys, um, we go, um, and the that talks about, um So, um, you know, gathering knowledge. And and so to me, uh, really, after the rainy days that we've had, um Oh, sorry. Another of it is that is, um, an [00:13:30] of and is also so, um, to me, it makes, um, sort of a special connection today with um, after a rainy day yesterday having, um um yeah. So today is a, um a great day for us. Um, we we've got, um, Ariana here, one of the curators [00:14:00] of, um, on the dusk. He made it. So, um, an amazing exhibition upstairs. Um, and I'll leave all of the about that for for that part. Um, and we've also got, um, the legend, um, with Evans here and some of our our from the staff here as well. Um, just to share and And what is here? Because it is all of ours. And I think that's a message that I'm trying to get across to everyone. That this It's funny. It seems like this big imposing thing, but it is for everyone to come in and see. [00:14:30] And there's plenty here for our community as well. So I'm just the day to sort of gather together and and share and and particularly about the of the mana of So Yeah, so is my name. Um and so a quick word about if you don't know about, uh, Community Group based here in Wellington. Many of us at home are here today, and there are many of us who [00:15:00] are also not able to be present. But the purpose of our group is to essentially act as a space for in Wellington to come together, um, to build community. So building community not just amongst ourselves, but amongst the wider community to tell our stories. So all of us have got a place to tell our stories and a place to leave a legacy meaning, uh, a pathway for others to follow. So that's essentially [00:15:30] the the the aim of our our group here. I forgot to say a special mention to lay gas. Thank you also for your participation. I'm a member of Lays, too. So I forget about those things sometimes. Um and that's also great to see people from the wider community here. So So let me know your Facebook name. That's all I can do. But she's lovely, but she's actually from [00:16:00] Alton out out in the park there. And then there's Richard over here from Rainbow Wellington. Who is here. So, uh, it's great to see everybody. Today is an opportunity, um, for to come along and bring the community to the National Library to the Alexandra Turnbull Library. Um, there's that opportunity to see what's here. There's an opportunity for us to have a talk about and give some [00:16:30] feedback about, uh, some of the exhibitions, but also to generate conversation, uh, which will have an opportunity after, um, going around the exhibitions. Um, today, just with the and the the size of the exhibition space, Um, we just feel it's best to have two groups, and we do a swapping over kind of thing. So half of us will go with Ariana and go through, um, the exhibition on the and the other half will go into the little burn [00:17:00] room with some of our curators here. Um, and then we've, um, brought up some of the items there for us to have a look at and have a, um and then, after a certain amount of time, about half an hour, then we'll swap over, and so everyone will get to see everything, and then we'll come back downstairs for one on a Yeah. Any cool? Um, so we'll just split up into roughly groups of 10. Just just 22. [00:17:30] So, um, just a Well, you can make up your little but, um Ariana, stand and then and then start to the stairwell and 10 people follow Ariana and the rest of us will just gather. Here I wait, Wait, [00:18:00] YTY that. Have a seat. Have a seat if you want. Just a quick explanation about the this here. You can see from the English version that, uh, talking about the stars that gather at this time of the month. Uh, and these stars [00:18:30] are the of, and they, uh, are seen at the beginning of the new Maori New Year. And, um, my explanation this morning, uh, why it such an important time of the year is because from my understanding, um uh, about the of and the is that, um it's a time to to celebrate. Um, [00:19:00] it's a time of celebration. So the stars, uh, that are named here represent different things that, um, help us in our lives. So, uh, whether those things that grow in the ground or those things that are that uh um come from the air, uh, from the sea. Wait, wait. From fresh water from rainwater from the winds, [00:19:30] these are the the the the names of of some of those stars in particular. And and then there are two other stars, uh, named as well, which is the star where we remember those who have passed on and which is the star to whom we direct our wishes for the the coming year. So [00:20:00] the importance of the mother of these stars is that, um when those stars were seen, depending on how brightly or not they shone or were seen was an auger of how well things might be for those stars that they represented. So if you saw the star of Nuku so looking at the food that comes from the ground and it was shining really brightly, it was perhaps a foretell [00:20:30] that it was going to be a good year for crops. And for other things, it might not be such a good year. So that's my understanding and explanation around. Um, but it's only my explanation, and there's lots of explanations and other people will have other stories. So this is just 11 explanation, and it was just my excuse to have a with you while we were all coming back together as well. And the purpose of this session [00:21:00] is to get some feedback about our today, which is about, uh, wahine. And so you've been through some some exhibitions which have focused us on, particularly about wahine Maori. Uh, and so for this session, um, what we'd like to do is to get some feedback, Really from people, Uh, about that in one or two or no more than 10 words? No, I'm just kidding. But, [00:21:30] um, they will try and, um uh, give enough space for everyone to to provide some some reflections, Uh, about the the exhibition, what you saw or what you may not have seen. Perhaps that that might be, um, useful, Um, for consideration. Uh, and even reflecting on those people in our community, whether they're here in Wellington or further [00:22:00] a field that you think also could fit into this category of celebration of man and the way that we're going to do this is in the, um, form of passing the and, um, we're going to a bit like a session. So for people who are familiar with the session, you sort of get to say who you are, Uh uh, in one or no more than 10 words. [00:22:30] Um, but, um and then perhaps, um so that everyone gets to to meet each other through this process because it's been a bit quick so far. But perhaps we might have a bit of time to devote to each other. And don't worry, we won't forget if you haven't had a chance to speak because, um, we'll just make sure that a gets to you and this is going to be the the microphone. And so the microphone will just move around from one person [00:23:00] to the other, just moving around in the circle rather than going backwards and forwards, right? It'll just go around that way. Did I miss anything out? Just sounded like everything was happening. Um, so I've just explained what we're going to be doing, Um, in terms of reflections, considerations in the Maori, Uh, and using the arcade. Yeah, I think maybe I'll just add [00:23:30] in that, um, with the exhibition and and perhaps you pick this up and this has been said, but, um, we've been trying to really just evoke and create a space for everyone to share what it is that, um means to you the manner of or reflecting on on and your lives who are important or role models or those sorts of things. So any of those sorts of welcome here today? Yeah, you too. So I'll start with me, [00:24:00] then we can end with you. And so, um, for me, they, uh, have always been important role models for me in terms of in particular. So So I think of my mother. I think of my grandmother, and I think of them as being anchors in our, um And so I also see Maori within our community as a similar [00:24:30] thing for me anchors. They around whom? Um, friends, Uh uh, Come together. Around. That's just me. [00:25:00] Um, uh, um uh and, um um And, um I'd just like to say [00:25:30] that, um what means to me? Um, straight away, my mother comes to my mind because she was the strength in our family, and, um, she was the one that we all went to. So, um, to me, it means strength. Thank you for having me. Uh, my name is Vaughn Lloyd Jones. Uh, my iwi is Wallace clan, and I'm from Wellington. I grew up in, and, uh, it's been a really pleasure. Real pleasure to be [00:26:00] here. Um, my son's Maori and I've got friends in this group So it's just nice to get immersed. And I've learned a lot, and I think I'm definitely history from the point of people experiencing it from women and, uh, in is is fantastic. So please keep it up. Thank you for having me. Um um, [00:26:30] core McDonald. Um no, I grew up in, um, down near, um, and yeah, it was an incredible opportunity this morning. It just feels like like, my best day. And, um, yeah, I still am really just reeling from it all. I feel like [00:27:00] I I feel like it needs kind of weeks to gestate, but, um, the thing that really it just is staying with me of through everything is, um is actually, um your about the, um the fingernails and the gifting and the, um Oh, yeah, there's something there that's just working. It's magic, and I yeah, I don't know. [00:27:30] It's too early. It's too early to do it. Yeah, but and also just, um, beautiful. Just to have this celebration. And I guess in my personal life, I think of I was raised by my nana and great auntie and and a Yeah, and a pretty fierce matriarchy. And, um, yeah, So this just feels like a It's nice. Fully met energy resonate throughout all of this as well. Yeah, that feels special. Kilda. [00:28:00] Hi. My name is Renita. Owen. I'm from I was brought up in, Um, I was brought up in the Tongan family. As you all know, Um, there wasn't much in life to actually have because I was brought up by my auntie. My parents had to go to work, and my auntie's got about five or six Children. She brought up my sisters and brothers and all of us and means to me is [00:28:30] beautiful because you know, when you have those friends and those people and you know, those beautiful people that actually, like, literally got me to know who I am and literally got to make me grow up and actually know that I am a transgender. But I'm a girl that's beautiful. And, you know, I give my heart to everyone and looking at it in public, it makes me feel [00:29:00] like, you know, we can be strong. We are beautiful people today, so why put your head down and look at yourself and say to yourself that you are clear because in your heart. You're beautiful and take every single part of it as loving as enjoyment. You know, because as you see people today, they don't know who they are. They don't know what they wanna be. But if you take one step at a time and that [00:29:30] you gradually grow up, you actually know that you are beautiful people. We are from different cultures. We bring many experts that we have. So thank you, everybody. Um um [00:30:00] um, I would just like to say that, um, the power of the woman is, uh of the wahine is undeniable. And what I got from here is that you looking at this, uh, exhibition has has included Carmen and has given us girls as, um [00:30:30] transgender. Uh, so this expression has put us and put us somewhere and given us a space. And to me, that's quite that's quite, um, heartfelt. And, um, because in society, it's it's completely different. We're kind of like invisible, but to to see you put us somewhere up there is, um yeah, it was really It was really hard for [00:31:00] me and to me. Um, the the the power of the woman like I said, is undeniable. They are the bearers of life. And to me, that's not a gift that's a superpower. And so my acknowledgment to, um and it's nice to see, um, an exhibition about wahine because there's really not enough of them. And that space she gave [00:31:30] us is just touch me. So, everybody, my name is, um I'm not very good at speaking. Um, it's been amazing today. I enjoyed today. Very interesting, actually. I saw a photo of me today. I tried to make it. I was 24 but I was 38 [00:32:00] but, yeah, it's been really fabulous today. I really enjoy it. And thank you very much. Thank you. Um, um, So although I'm, you know, my experiences of Maori women have been that they're exceptionally strong people and, uh, you know, given the, um, the kind of things that they have to cope with in our society [00:32:30] that as women have to all women have to, but, um, as Maori women, they have to be even stronger. And, um, you know, I I'm I'm over awed by the the amount of the, um responsibilities they take on the number of Children they have. And, uh, they bring up and the way they have worked to revitalise, um to continue culture traditions. Um, I think women really are the bearers of in the, um [00:33:00] they they carry on the culture, you know, and that so they they have a Yeah, I greatly in all of that. And it's wonderful to see an exhibition which celebrates it. Thank you. Yeah. Hi, everyone. My name is and I come to be here from Via the South of India, Malaysia, Auckland, and now I'm present. Um, I really loved the exhibition. It was, um, so beautiful to see [00:33:30] the threads from the past to now, Um, I think that's what I really appreciated about it the most. Thank you. Hello. I'm Annabelle Fagan. I come from and I swore I saw a Riki flying past my window today. So that was good luck that I came in here and Jo enjoyed the exhibition. Yeah. Uh uh, [00:34:00] um I feel very privileged to come and see this exhibition in the company of this group, and I definitely want to come back and see it again. And I'm so interested how the the colonising our eye has created an image of, uh young Maori women that make some sort of objectified and distant and sort of not of the current [00:34:30] world And how we move through to women who are the kind of strong we know. And I've been so privileged to know some absolutely super Maori and see them represented there just absolutely great. Um, I'm Linda Martin. Um, the the exhibition, you know, starting from all those [00:35:00] early images of Maori women and trying to make them passive and objectified images. And, um, I think back to when I was in early, teen and my family moved up to the bay of plenty. And I worked on a one summer job working on a farm, selling, um, watermelon and stuff on the side of the road. And I would hear these Maori women working in the fields behind me and I never [00:35:30] saw them. And they're all speaking. And, um, uh, I was just I don't know how to explain the the feeling and and then I was in for a year. And when I was at the, um uh, I was, um, living at the nurses' Hostel. I was there at the time. And again, there are all these Maori women working there and they were so staunch and a bit [00:36:00] scary. Um, but they were so strong and so thinking about that and thinking about the exhibition and how my ancestors as part of the colonial colonialist, Um, like I said, try to make these amazing women passive objects. And I think of now and I think of all these just [00:36:30] wonderful, amazing, strong Maori women who are so so fucking strong with all the shit that's still going on in our country. And, um, you know, the the members of I want to acknowledge you for your Oh, sorry for your strength and your beauty and living your lives. And I want to give a shout out to Cassie, [00:37:00] who's just this amazing, amazing, wonderful young Maori woman. And I want to give a shout out to and all the shit she's getting in the media. And she's another strong Maori woman who did what she needed to do to look after her Children. And so I just want to give this as a working class New Zealander. I want to [00:37:30] just, um, pay my respect to these Maori women who survive and persist with others. Negativity in the in our world and they just continue to bloom and and be strong and stay staunch. And I think that's more than 10 words. Um uh, [00:38:00] asks to Ada Um, yeah, I it's it's a great privilege to be here with the today. Um, and, uh, one of my favourite moments was, uh, being with the material from Gans and all of the images of Carmen and people talking about, um, who [00:38:30] they knew and their memories. And for me, that was, um that's kind of the importance of archives and making them, like you said, um, accessible to people because they're, um they're the people who allow us to be who we are. So yeah, um, I think that exhibition is is very, very moving and powerful and really important, and I'll come back for a longer visit. [00:39:00] Um, I've spent so much time in this building in the last 18 years in and out researching, and it always feels like home walking back in that door. But today really felt like a connection to our histories women of New Zealand women and [00:39:30] is Linda and other women here, said the the example of strength. The example of persistence and resistance that Mana Wahine shows us. And I think of my grannies. And like Linda, I was working class Pakeha my Nana worked in and Hastings and in her later years, and we share some of those stories rural women in New Zealand, we share some of [00:40:00] the same experiences, but we don't talk about it as an identifying experience very often. And I know in my genealogy my the woman in my family didn't do that. I forgot to say who I am. So my name's Kerry tank, and I'm not usually around here. I'm usually up in the Waikato now. So a couple of people were stunned to see me here today because they didn't get much of a heads up. But, yeah, thank you for for putting this exhibition up, because it really is heartwarming [00:40:30] to see the narratives of all of us included. And to see that, um, to see the narratives that bring in sisters that bring in all of the the diverse and strong people that that have been included in the history of women in New Zealand. So I'll stop now. Uh, everybody. My name is Sarah. [00:41:00] Um, yeah, like everybody else. I found the, um, exhibition really moving and really powerful. And I just hope that anybody that comes through the front door and has a look at it starts to acknowledge, um, more and encourage the voice of our because I think that's the way forward for a through the voices of our those who have gone before us and those who are around us today. Uh um, my [00:41:30] name is Tommy Hamilton. I've just moved to Wellington from Auckland, and I just want to acknowledge that student teacher relationship here. You walked in earlier, and I was like, I know that person. So I really want to apologise for not connecting you because we're not in Auckland. So that's my excuse. Um, but lots of people around the room I've met and briefly seen, I'm also, um, engaged with the through my partner, Jack, who performs with you guys. But I work in the community, so I wear many different [00:42:00] hats. Um, but this morning I just walked in and trying to get Jack here on time. It's like, Oh, what are we doing? Where are we going? What's happening? Um, there's a fun thing. OK, I'll come. Um, and then I kind of turned up. And as we were going upstairs, I was going to get coffee to wake up, and I was going to miss out on all this amazing stuff. So, um, which the first room we went into was the room with the, uh with all the books and things. And, um and [00:42:30] I could feel all this weaving, which is, you know, the to me symbolic of, um, not of of everything about femininity is weaving. And then I started to sense and hear similar to Sean stories of people saying, Oh, you know, the, um the the connection to directly to this group of people that was in those pictures and images. And in the words and the narratives that were being echoed [00:43:00] physically in the room and in the exhibition as well. Um, so that to me is, uh, is is also heartening. And, uh, that brings visibility to our people, our peoples, in our different communities, in the rainbow, um, realm. And I guess I just want to also say, as a transgender person also, um, my connection to what? To to femininity has got [00:43:30] sort of cells and DNA in it, and recently my mother passed and I had a weird kind of experience inwardly around the notion of feminine qualities around the ideas of, um, matriarchy and the ideas of how things pass down and how you know, there's all sorts of ways we present to the outside world. But there's lots of different ways we connect to, um oh, our our ideas of being female [00:44:00] woman wahine and all those cultural contexts. So sometimes, um, it's made me curious about the physicality of some of the faces and the peoples and how we how those women have learned to be women. It makes me think about how we learn these ways of, of, of, um, how those are intergenerational stories and how those stories come from many generations of our our female origin. So, um, I guess sort of, that's where my spiritual [00:44:30] head is going. So, um, it was really informative, and it was wonderful to be with you to on this journey and the other people who are with us today. So for me, um, having just recently lost my mother was really quite moving, so I just like to thank everyone for coming along on the journey with me. Even though you didn't realise you were doing that, you did a good job. Thank you. Yeah. Fix. Uh um, my name is James. I'm from Wellington. Grew up in the hills [00:45:00] over the West over that way. Um, it's always a privilege to be with an associated the people that associates and brings together, um, like Chanel, the the the seeing, Um, Carmen in that collection was fantastic. And and also to to to see to as well, just for I used to be a big fan of hers, So it was awesome to see her photo. But, um, the exhibition [00:45:30] both both parts of the exhibition is something very, very strong special. And I hope, um, a lot of people get to see it, because whether you want to or not, you're gonna be affected by it. I think it's a strong show. Um, yeah. Woman power. Go for it. Thanks. Hi, everyone. I'm Natalie Marshall. I'm the curator of photographs here at the Turnbull Library. Um, a big part of what [00:46:00] I do every day is caring for the collections that we have here and building them and the hope that they will reflect all New Zealanders. Um, but one of the most pleasurable parts of the job is showing the collection to people that have real connections with us. So thank you all for coming today and being so engaged and looking through the collections and finding yourselves there or people you know, There, that's that's a real, um, rewarding part of the job for me. [00:46:30] Um, as I was saying in my, um, it's a real honour for us to hear that you're here today and also personally for me, it's lovely to be with, um, again, Um, because I'm one of your alumni. Um, but I just wanted to mention Oh, and I want to acknowledge, [00:47:00] um, the exhibition teams you've got some of the one curator is not here, but you, too, for coming up with this idea. It was a brilliant idea. And, um, great that were were to get on board with that, but also my other colleagues, for for supporting it, and I just thought I'd mention a couple of things to you. Uh, just perhaps to to bear in mind that, as I said in my this is your library, This is the the is the National Library of New Zealand. So that means that it is about all of us. [00:47:30] And exhibitions like the one you've seen are only possible because people have been generous enough to deposit their with us. So always mindful of, um, opportunities just to, you know, well, most of them getting muddled researching. Um, So if you were thinking about, like, exhibitions, like books like your own sort of your own family history, you need to always remember that us and other repositories are here, Um uh, for you. And there are ways of accessing it. So basically, you know, is via Linda and [00:48:00] Roger Swanson. But there are other ways that the rest of us can help with that. And then there are other collections that's through curators like us. So I'm the Maori curator here and work with Natalie and the other curators up on level two. And it's really always good for us because, you know, we're on top of There are three layers below us, and there are also stores underneath that building the rugby building across the way. Um, the collections here are enormous. The apparently we've got 13 kilometres of papers people's papers of manuscripts. So you could work here [00:48:30] for a lifetime and you never really. You only get to know little bits, and I'd heard a bit about the Carmen Collection. But it was really lovely seeing it today and seeing the way she had engaged with Turnbull and our colleague John Sullivan, who used to be the head of the photo archive. And he sits next to me and he's one of our real treasures. And she said, Dear John, you know, she she's writing and addressing John and all the annotations and and that's really special because it means I felt so comfortable with that collection because she was so keen for it to be here and for us [00:49:00] to be able to and others in the to be able to engage with it. So, um, that's and we were just talking about how that's quite unusual, Actually, you sometimes might have photos that have, uh, labels that were done for the family, but this is kind of neat. How she said, Hello, Turnbull. Hello, John. And she she's writing all this stuff on it and then, um, think about the record of our time and and what we're going through at the moment and the How would you want people here in 30 40 years to be gathering and those guys in 2017? What were [00:49:30] they? What were they like? You know, So But what will it be? You know, and we don't want it to just be the Dominion that records us and our time. And that's what's great about and the other collections is that it's our own kind of record of the time. So I want to acknowledge my mate and colleague Gareth Pride, New Zealand, which is a fantastic sort of, um, database. It's it's enormous, um, in terms of a record of what we're doing. So it's great that Gareth's here today, but do be mindful of that. You know, all of the you can see what Legans is about. All of those groups we're part of, [00:50:00] um, it's really important that the that the records of those groups, you know that can be through oral history can be through pamphlets, newsletters, all that stuff you were looking at upstairs and that's in the exhibition. Um, just be mindful of hassling whoever the secretary is and saying Hey, go ring Linda, get that stuff deposited. So, Richard, um, I had exactly the same thought [00:50:30] about, um, rooms like this. Pictures of rooms like this. I sat in the seventies and the eighties, political groups and groups of people who came together for different reasons. And the recording of those events were so important for for later, when you thought it was silly to be taking a photo or these people taking a photo, let's get on with the work. But the photo was the thing that you have in your hands later that you remember and brings the pain, the pain of that work back again and the joy of it. So, um, so I really [00:51:00] was wondering what a 30 year on from now exhibition was going to be like. Who's gonna be there? Would I be there? And, um, what would what would we be looking at? And the other thing specifically about man there is I'm I'm a teacher at Victoria University, and I'm, um, students learn, I hope from me, but I've got a particular student at the moment. I was thinking of to to Kevin from the river, and she's a biologist, and she's working on fish, but from a from A from a Maori perspective, [00:51:30] a manga mari perspective and goodness me. I mean, there are times when she's really uncertain. I'm explaining something to her, but there are times that suddenly I'm the student and she's explaining carefully to me how it all works. And, um, when I think of, she's the person that leaps into my mind at this moment. So I'm very happy to, um, be able to supervise her work. Thank you so much for sharing all of your beautiful today. And, [00:52:00] um, yeah, it's just really generous, you know, to be hearing your stories. And, um, yeah, what else can I say? Um, yeah, last night I flew down to for the green party, um, campaign launch to sing down there. And when I arrived, there was this amazing rainbow in the sky, uh, up against these dark clouds. And, um, yeah, [00:52:30] I was just really struck by the beauty of that, um of that up there. And, um, often, rainbows, you know, within that Maori society were were seen in terms of how they appeared and when they appeared, you know? And so yeah, like, um a and um, even mentioning this morning about, um yeah, those connections, um, with as well being here. So I think that was also a nice for today. [00:53:00] That, um, that we were going to go well with our, um, yeah, I I'm sad in a way that I wasn't able to be there with, um, with you in the other room as well at the same time as being in the exhibition, because, yeah, that, um, car collection in particular for me was a real pleasure to to come across, um, during our research period, Um, and yeah, just that that personal connection, Um, and her really [00:53:30] strong intention with those, um, notes that she annotated everywhere. And her, um, you know, marker pen. Um, and, yeah, at the very end, when she talks about, um, that if any of the arrived and wanted to intervene in this the collection being here that, um, you know, this was her intention that they'd be here for people to access, um, which [00:54:00] was really strong was a bit like a a will. You know, um, and John, um, was sharing some stories about, uh, going to Sydney and, um, speaking with her about um, bringing the collection here. So, um, yeah, I don't want to say anything more, but, um, just thank you. Thank you. [00:54:30] And I'm just going to capture those voices that hadn't been heard yet. Um, um no core Trevor Buick. Cool. Sylvia Oliver. [00:55:00] Cool. Bruce Levy took a fire core. Rachel Jackson. Ah, thank you very much for today. It was a, um, a great [00:55:30] privilege to come and see the exhibition. Um, I saw some old friends and photo albums and brought back a lot of memories. Um, and, um, just wanna say again, Thank you. It's been an awesome special day. And, um, the other thing was, um my Children are and we were upstairs and saw, um, a direct, um, descendant from them, which [00:56:00] was special for me and special for them. So thank you, Um, Or to, [00:56:30] um, thank you so very much to our creators today. That was so, so lovely up here at the pictures to see cars and all the all the girls that have gone, um, that have gone, um, our sisters that have gone lovely to see our sister up over [00:57:00] here. Very young version of you. I was lovely. was just saying, I am so definitely gonna come back and see those voters up over there. So thank you. [00:57:30] Um, KKKK. Um and, uh, I, um [00:58:00] for, um, putting on this beautiful exhibition, uh, for hosting us, uh, to everyone who is here, Um, I've I'm gonna go and spend more time than the dusk he made in, um, beyond the dusky made in exhibition, because I think that small size of time wasn't enough. And there's so much more to be learned and gained from that space. And I'm very appreciative for it. Um, and [00:58:30] also appreciative to yeah, very honoured to sit alongside some really incredible wahine in there and also in us young punks, Maori punks in that in that space feels feels really great. And I guess also just want to thank um, as well. I spent the last part just looking through a, um a, um, a magazine that was, um, produced by Maori lesbians for Maori lesbians [00:59:00] in the eighties. And it was both, um, both heartwarming and really sad to see that. Then they were talking about the exact same things that we talk about now. Um, and in particular, I was struck by them talking about just yeah, what it means to, um, have our sexuality identity and our cultural identity and how you keep those identities intact, which is sometimes quite difficult because [00:59:30] of colonisation and because of everything. So, um so, yeah, so I feel really stoked to have been able to read some of those words from ones that have gone before me. So for that, my name is from, um, far north. Um, but no, we, uh, come back down the lines on, um Oh, the is, um coffee. Come along. Uh [01:00:00] um, east coast. Um, um, south island. Um, um And what do you think? Um, creators. And that because, um, I did studies and that there on some of the people that I saw in the pictures and that there, you know, but I I forgot their names, but it was good. Um, you [01:00:30] know, to have, um, recap on those, um, people as well, You know, that was up there, and it was good, you know, to see, um, the photographs in that there of, um you know, Carmen and that there because it gives me a outlook, too. Of what we can pull together, you know, as a community as well. And I just [01:01:00] thought, Oh, you got to go back over the years now, you know, Was it because people have got a lot of photos and that there that they don't just give out? You know, But, um, have them in the archives or something like that There, You know, this is the place for it. National, Um, library. Yes. Um, thank you for today, you know, And, um, when we went out, we all, um, upstairs in that there to [01:01:30] the exhibitions and that there, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Thank you very much. Kill the rich. Um, um, so you've already heard, But I guess, um a KANAKAN depending on how we've met and all of that sort of stuff. Um, but, um, just, I guess, to make the point here at work, I am known [01:02:00] as a just my little way of, um, bringing out into my space every, um, every time I come to work, So Yeah. So, um, um, my job here is actually research access. So, um, you know, I heard lots of people talking about really enjoying seeing the collections and oh, don't make me have to leave. Our time is up. And, um so actually, that's my job. So if you come and ask for a and then I can help you access [01:02:30] them, all of our staff can help you access. But, um, you know, we So you also feel free to ask Ask for me, and I'll come out and help you with that, Um, and yeah, just to to follow up with what Paul was saying that, um I've become really quite mindful of of the space here. There's so many amazing collections here to see and for all of us to come in and view. Um, but it's also made me think of, like, what are all the great things that are going on and definitely with we're all over town, right? Opening all kinds of things [01:03:00] and blessing all sorts of stuff all over town. Um, but also, with my own experience with coming into the is the strength that I have, um, gained within myself and my own identity. And so just to acknowledge, um, the for for helping me along on my journey. And, um so another way to sort of, um, empower our to come generations to come is also to to just think about what can we bring in here for? Yeah, for people to see for future. So, um, yeah, um [01:03:30] um And so, everybody, thank you so much for coming. Um, when I I was quite lucky to see, um, Ariana again. Part of research access. Um, just she was coming in and having a look at the different collections, I was like, Oh, I'm seeing a lot of going on over here. What are you up to? Oh, what's going on? Like, Oh, we could maybe put together a few events around it. And so that's kind of how I like slide in here. Um, and then, yeah, we've been able to put together some really cool events. I don't know if you've seen them going on on Facebook or not, [01:04:00] but yeah, some amazing speakers coming through and got some more coming up. Um, and one of the things that we really wanted to do when we were talking about stuff is is to really show that this is a place for everyone in our communities. And so for me, it was a real no brainer. My to come in here and also just, um I had heard lots, you know, from Elizabeth and Kevin about leg ends. But I didn't really understand what it was. Um, and so being in here again, sort of another chance to learn about those things and and all of us to understand that this space is [01:04:30] is for us and and what it is that we can do for people coming forward as well. Um, so yeah, and that's sort of how this event has sort of has come together. And so thank you so much to everyone for coming along. Um, it's really Yeah, my is very full right now. I feel really great. Um, having my here and my, um who just really jumped on board. This is a great And, um, just to say that Linda Evans, the leg curator, she, um, was unable [01:05:00] to come down for the but she asked me to pass on just her token of thanks to everyone and similar to Natalie. Just that, being able to connect community with what is here. Yeah, because I spend so much time looking after this whole and and making sure that we we get great Tonga and to keep those stories alive. Um, but to be able to connect them with community and with community, who it really means something to us is such a great honour. And so she, um, really just wanted to share that with everyone as well. So [01:05:30] yeah, um, and I guess for this whole story for me has all been about so, um, coming into so Elizabeth Maori, um, invited me into and ever since then, you know, sort of learning heaps from her and from all of the and here with Ariana learning lots from her in this space and just the whole so many strong Maori women, um, so resilient and and [01:06:00] doing amazing things so great to be able to celebrate that all with with everyone here today. And thank you for the beautiful, like all the timing of it. The time to look back and to look forward and and the place of the archives and thinking about, um, our stories now and how they'll be viewed and times to come. So it's just such a beautiful, like coming together, everything. Just working really well. So thank you everybody for coming. Um, and I might just point out. You know, part of my job, our events. We've been up and we've got [01:06:30] lunchtime talks, Um, on Friday, so after one. So, um, this week we have some staff who who'll bring up some from the archives and from their talking about who have, um, inspired them on on their journeys. And then in the following week, we have, um on August the 11th, we have doctor a lot coming down from Vic. She, um, is a historian up there, and she's gonna come and won't tell you too much about it. But it is titled owning our dusky cells [01:07:00] Sex, sexuality and women's business or something like that or something about skin. Anyway, Come along. And then, um, on the 12th, we have a cool collab with club. So, um, organised that another there? Um, but yeah, we'll be down at flux, um, with the Wellington Museum. And, um, creators have come in and had a look at the exhibition and like, you were continuing to come in because you [01:07:30] you could see it multiple times, and, you know, everything needs to gestate. Um, So they're going to be giving some creative responses to the exhibition that night from five o'clock. So, yeah, have a look on Facebook or on our website. Those events are up there. And, um, I think is that you think just check out. But really, really thankful for your coming here today. And, um, can't talk about Maori without talking about my aunties. Who? Um, [01:08:00] my dad was one of 17 or 18 kids, and of them, um, five are left and four are Maori. One is, um, a male. And he has survived, I think, because he ran away to Perth, the strength of the and the so, Yeah. Oh, I might just hand over to, um, Kevin Kilda. Um [01:08:30] um um, just thinking, uh, the national library. The curators. Now that I know he called you a here, I'm thinking, how come she going on? Um, and to everyone that came along today, [01:09:00] um, to help realise this, um, and to learn, um, and to think and to reflect about what we may do going forward is is really, really has been a valuable moment. And to have members of the wider community here has also been really valuable in terms of that interaction as well. Um, and so with that this was going [01:09:30] to conclude. I will have a KA shortly after I hand it back to Paul. Who's going to going to close off our session today, even though he doesn't know it yet. Um, And also, um um, but yeah, just to give thanks. Thank you for everything that has happened today. And so I think it's probably right that we probably sing a song for that before while Paul composes himself and thinks about what he's going to do next. [01:10:00] [01:10:30] [01:11:00] [01:11:30] [01:12:00] Yeah. Uh [01:12:30] uh. [01:13:00] I have something to eat, please.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089786
TITLE: Rachel Hoskin - Butch: a photographic exploration
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VOICES: Rachel Hoskin
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Butch on Butch (exhibition/series); Charlotte Museum; Hamilton; Jools Topp; Lynda Topp; Museums Aotearoa; Museums Aotearoa conference (2017); Palmerston North; Philippines; Rachel Hoskin; Rebecca Swan; San Francisco; Sian Torrington; Te Manawa Museum; The Exquisite Wound (2017, Rebecca Swan); The Topp Twins: an exhibition for New Zealand; Topp Twins; United States of America; Universal College of Learning (UCOL); Wellington; academics; accountancy; butch; butch dyke; butch flight; butch visibility; diesel dyke; dildo; dog; dyke; exhibition; extinction; facebook. com; femininity; femme; identity; imagery; interviewing; masculinity; perception; photography; research; smiling; soft butch; subservient; survey; surveymonkey. com; tattoo; tough; transition; visibility; wahine toa
DATE: 9 July 2017
YEAR: 2017
LOCATION: Te Manawa Museum, 326 Main Street, Palmerston North
CONTEXT: In this podcast photographer Rachel Hoskin talks about Butch: A Photographic Exploration, a social project of reaction to Butch women. The exhibition ran from 18 May - 18 June 2017 at Te Manawa, Palmerston North. Rachel also talks to Jac about the larger research study into changing perceptions of Butch women.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: The exhibition, uh, came from a academic, uh, research project that I'm currently doing. And it's more about the perceptions of butch women and how they may have changed within society. So it's so realistically, what I tried to do is take photos of Butch woman in a more, uh, possibly hard or standoffish pose. And then, um, another one that's a little bit softer, showing the more, uh, relatable [00:00:30] side, um, and put them side by side in the exhibition, um, to see what the perceptions might be from the public. How many women did you have involved in these photos? There was 10, including myself. And the exhibition was up for how long? Uh, just over a month. Um, and so part of this was that I was going to do some, um, public perception study while the exhibition was up at, uh, the problem being was that it probably just hit [00:01:00] a slightly off target market at a museum. So, uh, people who were coming through were generally more receptive to artwork, and so the perception might have been a bit flawed. So, uh, so that part of the study is going to be, um, done separately now. So the exhibition was just something for itself. Maybe some visibility for Butch and so Well, well, the exhibition was up. What? What were the reactions you were getting to it. Most of the reactions were positive. Um, but they were from LGBT [00:01:30] Q I community. Mostly the the So the responses that I was getting was probably mostly from the LGBT Q I community and, um, the staff at as well, so they were positive. But again, probably not the responses that I was needing to find out which is more about the general General society views right? What? Why why are you doing that? So, um, it's something that I'm interested in, um, being butch myself. Um, I am really interested in how the perceptions may have changed. [00:02:00] I also know that, um, in society today, it is much easier for young women to transition. Um, and some participants that I have interviewed have mentioned about how Butch identity may become extinct in the near in the near future. And that really interests me. It interests me about how butch women see themselves and how the public see Butch woman as well. Um, and just the whole thing is just fascinating. And I think it was really worth the study to put [00:02:30] in to see, um if perceptions of in society are changing towards Butch woman identity. When you say changing what and what sort of time frame to talk? Yeah, So that's the interesting part. Because I haven't really gone back and had a look at what perception is, um has just been anecdotal. And the anecdotal is around. Um, you know, when I was growing up back in the seventies and eighties, um, and the word dike, Um, you know, the the diesel dyke, the butch dyke, the, [00:03:00] um you know, that sort of those sort of terms, those derogatory terms back then, um showed public perception of Butch Woman not as a positive thing. And quite a few of those terms are reclaimed. Reclaim terms. And I love that they reclaimed terms, and I love them. And I love those terms. Um, and that's why I wanted to see, but they reclaimed terms within the LGBT Q I community. And so they still perhaps have a negative connotation for those outside of that community. [00:03:30] And so they can still be used in a draw way. But I'm really keen to see if general Society look at bow images and still do that whole, um, you know, diesel dike or she should be a man. Or is it a woman? Is it a man? But that whole negative reaction to it, I'm really interested to see if that is still around. And that's still present in society, right? And so that's what you'll be measuring through interviews, correct. So I'm actually doing surveying now. So So, um, it'll be through survey monkey. [00:04:00] And it will be, um it's about collecting responses to So what? What it's gonna be is we're gonna show I'm going to show the, um the full, um, Butch a hard, harder image and a soft image, but not next to each other. So it's going to be randomised so that so and then it's gonna be a like it scale. So people will be able to go in and show whether they feel really positive towards the image or really negative towards the image. And then at the end, it talks about whether they have photographic, um, experience because that will come [00:04:30] into the their interpretation of the LGBT Q I um, if they have friends that are LGBT Q I All those questions have to come at the end because that can, um that that can sway their responses. Um, so it'll be quite interesting for when I actually write up the paper on it. Um, how that how we see that perception if it has changed or or how it might have changed. Change? What's your what's your starting point? So So So my benchmark [00:05:00] is back in and when um, Butch lesbian or Butch woman is a is a negative thing is a It's a, um, and societal views from back in the eighties where Butch woman might have, you know, that whole diesel dike, that negative connotation to it, that, um so that I want to see if it's become more positive over over time. How are you selecting participants? That's see, That's so that's what I'm working through at the moment. Um, so the participants will probably [00:05:30] be selected, um, via, uh, boosted Facebook posts, mostly because that way you can target a specific set of of audience, or you can have, um, your audience set out so that it's not just one group of people um, or one portion of society that I can get a whole lot. Um, and that's running through the, uh, the UO research subcommittee at the moment just to make sure that there's no ethical issues around that. And what is your What are your studies? [00:06:00] What do you study? So so that. Well, that's just, um, part of PB RF stuff. So, um, so that's the performance based research funds, uh, for government. So, um, so that's so basically in my role as head of school for creative industries at UC. Um, I'm required to do research. I have, um, that sits under my responsibility. Um, degrees and master's degrees. Um, so as part of that, um, I, I really need to make sure that I'm an active researcher, and this is the research project [00:06:30] that I have decided to do this year. Um, it changes every year. I do different projects every year, but this is the one that I'm currently working on. Um, and the, um PB RF ratings. Um, that needs to be, uh, has to be a, uh, an output that has been, um, quality assured. And so, by having my, um, exhibition at man uh, it has been approved to be at man. I had to go through an application process and and stuff to get it in here. And so that means [00:07:00] it has been quality assured in that in that aspect. And what do you hope will come from your your research and your paper? I want more visibility for Butch Woman I want I really want to have more butch woman. And, you know, I was inspired not only by your work, but work that's been happening in San Francisco, um, to do more of this work because Butch photography but photography but Butch Imagery, uh, Butch woman imagery. Um, it's just I think more visibility [00:07:30] will help people to young young woman to make that decision of whether they need to transition or they want to live as a butch woman. Because previously I had pressures growing up that, um, that questioned whether I should be transitioning, um, as a butch woman myself and and it was just societal pressures that made me question that I. I love being a butch woman, but woman being a butch woman, that's my identity, and I love it, and I wouldn't change it for anything. Um, but [00:08:00] I can see societal pressures can influence people in certain directions and I. I want to make sure that having Butch Woman is visible shows that there is an identity there and that that's an option. So I because I think they're kind of two issues, really. I think there's there is a blurring for some people around that transitional path that that's that's something that they that is in their thinking. Um, however it's it's [00:08:30] for me. It would be if people are transitioning and they go through that, it's they're finding their true identity. And they may have come from a place of being botch or actually experience my friends. And and there is there is more of the opening up of the option, and it's not an easy road to take for anyone. So it's, um, II. I would I don't think everyone who is going into um into transitioning, [00:09:00] um necessarily is putting aside being a butch woman, because that's actually not what they were. That's right, Yeah, no, and that's absolutely true. But there's been a lot of stuff that's inspired me recently in the news. We are not in new Zealand and other places. Butch women are forced to transition, and, um so so this is in the Philippines. So there's been a news article recently about the in the Philippines, and there was an interview done with, um, a now a young man who said that he was [00:09:30] forced into transitioning and doesn't want to be a man. Wants to be a butch woman, um, but wasn't allowed to in that society. And it's I don't think that's the same in New Zealand. I don't but I think it's a worldwide issue. I. I think that, you know Yes, sure, that's a that's a cultural. That's a cultural thing, But it is happening. It can happen anywhere. It could be pressures from, um from from anywhere. Yeah. I mean, II, I kind of feel in in New Zealand that, um there there has been there has [00:10:00] been a bit of an attitude over the years towards people who have transitioned Where, um it is It is sort of like, Oh, you know, why can't you just be Butch White? What are you doing? You just sort of like Butch Flight is is one is one term I've used and I think it's more of an opening of the conversation to say, actually that, you know, this is an option someone is able to take now and they they don't have to identify as a lesbian, but woman. So if that's not true to them, I completely I completely [00:10:30] agree with that. And I always know that there's a scale, Um, there there's a sliding scale of, you know I need to transition. This is who I am and this is life threatening for me. I need to be who I am, um, and and and and others who find that pressure. And it's really interesting having been talking to the participants from my study, Um, who think that, you know, Butch identity is going to, um is going to become extinct and other young butch woman who who say that they want but to be more visible, [00:11:00] um, in society, um and and have that as making sure that people know that that's there, that that culture, that our culture is there. Um, And it was really interesting seeing that because the women in my study, uh, identify as Butch woman and are very, very proud to be butch woman. Um and so the their history, their experiences, and the reason why they were participating in that study was really interesting to me. And it really resonated with me as well, because it was part of my reasoning for [00:11:30] doing the study. They all had to say to you, they all had to confirm with you that they were butch women to be in this correct. So because so So here was the thing. I put a call out for Butch Woman women who identify as Butch. Um And so, you know, there was a lot of there was a lot of people tagging others in in my post and saying, You know, this would be great for you and they're like, No, I'm not Butch. And it might appear to others that they might be, but they don't self identify as Butch, and so that that's where I wanted to make [00:12:00] sure that the woman in my study self-identity as Butch and and that was really important. I had the same issue with the butch and Butch And where, um where, uh, my photos, um, ended up being about people who identified as Butch or felt they were seen as Butch. And no, that wasn't actually a gender thing. It was butch itself and it. And it turned out to be most mostly women, mostly lesbian [00:12:30] women. Um, but not all, um, and And I had to swap exactly kind of the same as you from going approaching people who I thought were butch and happy to be identified as that and getting really burnt in that process to more of you contact me. That's right. Yeah. And I. I realised that quite quickly, um, that I wasn't going to go out to a woman and say, Oh, you But come and do my study because very much, even though they [00:13:00] might perceive to be butch from society, they don't identify as being butch themselves. And I wanted to be very, very clear that in my study these were women who self identify as butch women. It's quite a Western concept, too. Yeah, very much so. Yeah, it really is. Yeah. Um, yeah. So and my one identified as to, rather than as as that made so much more sense for her. Um And have [00:13:30] you, um in terms of the exhibition being on it to and having a lot of LGBT coming through. That must be really cool. Like visibility in Palmerston North would have been the first butcher exhibition here, I think. Yeah, well, it turned out to be in a really cool month, because here we had Rebecca Swan with her exquisite wound, Uh, which is just absolutely flooring. It's [00:14:00] just so good. Um and, um, we had also, you know, the top twins and, you know, fell at the same time as the, um, as the National Museums Conference. And we had the lesbian, um, museum here. Um, and it was just, I don't know, it seemed to be lesbian month at, and but it was just It was just brilliant. I just everything fell into place because because we're at the opening of the top Twins exhibition. I know that that Jules and Linda came down. Yes, they did. Yes, they did. They came to have a look through [00:14:30] the exhibition, and, um, and was actually looking at more of the finer detail of the images rather than overall. There's a butch woman, but, um, the the well, I had one participant who, um, had a a Nana tattoo and a love heart. on her arm, and they were absolutely fascinated by the the context of or the Maybe it was more of the, um the displacement between the tattoo and the softness of the tattoo compared to the way she looked and the hardness of the image describe some of the other images. I know a couple of friends [00:15:00] minor in there, and they look like they're playing with a dildo. You know what? There was a vacuum cleaner and no one else. I didn't notice it at the time, and I put it up in Mana, and staff were like, That's a dildo! And I'm like, No, it's not. It's a vacuum cleaner. I swear it's a vacuum cleaner. Um, but actually, it works either way, I guess. Um, but, um, but that was really quite cool, because, um, that participant identified as soft, but which is what I identify with as well, um, and I really like the idea of having that [00:15:30] subservient, um, image in there. That was on, in contrast to a bit of a harder look that she had and it was awesome. Um, and, um, and other participants, um, wanted to be seen with their animals so their dog in the and that was a more of a softer approach. Um, and then they have a slightly harder, harder look. And these images were done in a way that the participants wanted to be seen. So I didn't necessarily direct them. Although, to be fair, some of the some of the participants said to me, How do I look, Butch? [00:16:00] You know, how do you, you know, how am I gonna How do I look hard? And I'm like, Just don't smile. It's gonna work for you. It's fine. Um, and they're like, Oh, yeah, cool. And then, um and then So I did. I did a lot of shoots in Wellington. I did some in palms north. I did some in Hamilton and some in Auckland. Um, and the participants were really open to, um very open to the the harder, softer contrast of those images. Um and, um, some of them that I did one here in Palmerston North and she's a young butch lesbian, and she [00:16:30] wanted to be seen because she's an accountant and she wanted to be seen in that corporate world. So she was dressed in a suit, um, and wanted to be seen. As you know, this is this is an option, you know, You know, Butch woman in a successful corporate role and to be seen that way, and and that was really cool as well. What? What do you see? As as harder and softer. What does that mean to you? So that so what that means to me? And what the participants were trying to get across is that contrast between a softer, more approachable look and a harder, more standoffish [00:17:00] kind of, uh, you know, if if if I'm not smiling, some people could could think that I look hard, That's, you know, a a perception could be my perception that I'm projecting, perhaps, but, um, so it So sometimes I feel like, you know, we can project ourselves to be harder, and sometimes we can project ourselves to be softer and more approachable, so harder being tough, tough, tough, but tough. So, um so yeah, that's that's how I That's [00:17:30] how I was wanting to to see those two images and that contrast between them. I wanted to see it. As you know, we're not always looking that we're not always looking that tough We're not always tough that we we do have our soft sides. Uh, and that's part of that was part of that, um, that duality of those images as well. Do you see it? Harder, harder, softer, As in terms of masculinity, femininity can have. It can be related to that. Um, so that's that's fully dependent on the reception [00:18:00] theory. I think it's fully depended on how the audience or viewer wants to see those images. Um, I when we photographed them, the participant was happy to be seen in that softer, more approachable role as well as But we didn't mention it as a feminine masculine that wasn't mentioned at all in the when we discussed it with the participants. But, um, but that could be seen as that. And absolutely, um, yeah, yeah. Did FM identity [00:18:30] come up through any of this? No, Not mentioned once. Yeah, not mentioned once at all. And, um, I spent quite a good time with the participants as well, and then mostly in their homes or wherever they wanted to be, um, to have those images done. Um, and not once did fem identity or fem discussions come up. It was all around the butch identity and why they want to participate and how they wanted to be seen. So you do your paper, then what? Well, I hope [00:19:00] to get it published in a number of different places. Um, depending on the outcomes. You know, some of them might be a bit more neutral than I expect, but that's still an outcome. Um, so hopefully you get it published. I've had I've been approached by the trans community, and, um, and the, um, gay male community as well, uh, to do similar studies in those areas. And I'm absolutely open to that. Um, I The research is funded by UC. Um, and it's just a matter of me putting in, you know, a research application form [00:19:30] to just extend the study into other areas, so people will be able to access your research at some point. Yeah, absolutely. They will be. Yeah. I'll be able to put those, um, and have those available. Um, they will, um I need to find out where they will be, but, um, they'll be made public. Um, the the findings that the articles will all be made public this 2018. No, this will be the end of this year of 2017. Yeah. End of 2017 is there. Is there any website [00:20:00] or anything where people can go now to look at what you're doing? Um, at the moment? No, that will probably be set up a little later on. Um, once I have the research and the data collected to then do those findings.

IRN: 1129
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089785
TITLE: Matt talks about MALGRA
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 1980s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Christchurch; Club Q (Palmerston North); Connor McLeod; Fran Wilde; GLITTFAB Symposium (2016, Palmerston North); Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Jac Lynch; Jem Traylen; Louisa Wall; Manawatu Lesbian and Gay Rights Association (MALGRA); Manawatū; Mani Bruce Mitchell; New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF); Out (magazine); Palmerston North; Palmerston North GLITTFAB Wellbeing Network; Premier Drapery Company Ltd (PDC) store (Palmerston North); Rachel Hoskin; Rebecca Swan; Square Edge Arts Centre (Palmerston North); Tabby Besley; Te Manawa Museum; Tommy Hamilton; Topp Twins; advertising; ageing; butch; coming out; criminalisation; homosexual law reform; magazines; military; parties; safe space; support; trans; transgender
DATE: 9 July 2017
YEAR: 2017
LOCATION: Te Manawa Museum, 326 Main Street, Palmerston North
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Matt, can you tell us when you first started? It would have been in the mid eighties when I moved here from Christchurch. But, um, yeah, these are Yeah, it was an interesting time. It was an interesting space, and and a whole group of new people. Some I knew, but, um, many I didn't. So were you out when you Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Um, and I was a little astonished how you know [00:00:30] he was this organisation functioning. So well, having having, um, come from, I guess a city where being out was was cool, but, um, there were still risks, and so I wasn't sure what? What? The measure was here. Um, and unfortunately, I met up with really good people who who were very good guides. And I mean, there were great people running this organisation at that stage. People at, um, Peter and Kevin and and Eddie and [00:01:00] and Bill and people like this who who really set, I guess a good, solid framework for the organisation. What was the role of the organisation? I think it was it was around ensuring that that they were safe, safe, um, venues or a safe place for people to meet, um, and certainly an opportunity for people to respond to the what was then, of course, the legal challenges that we [00:01:30] were facing. So it was an organising and safe place, supportive social role. So they would they would organise monthly functions and that sort of thing. Um, and they did that really, really well. But at the same time, there was a focus on our rights and, um, and the need to address those huge gaps and to address the fact that at this time it was still a criminal offence for men. Do you remember any of the activities that [00:02:00] would have put in, um, around the social functions? There were great parties. Really, really good parties. Yeah. Those those folks knew how to throw a party. Um and, um and and lots of, um, focus, I think around, um, making sure that that, you know, people could get there, that the information was there. Um, but then, as well, there was the realisation in, [00:02:30] um 80 85 when Fran Wilde stepped forward and people started to respond to that. So already, um, people like Peter and Kevin had been, you know, quite, um, quite open about where they were at and, um, and about themselves and educating, um, different groups. And I think that was really valuable. How did people find out about how did they? Then it was advertised in most of the magazines, [00:03:00] like out and the like and and the safe space. The space that I remember was up the back of the square edge, the P DC. That was the one I knew, too. And then, um so the P DC rooms and then, um, later square edge. When, when, Um, we started club queuing. Yeah. Um, so what's the role of Mal now? Now? So Mal has moved, I think, beyond providing [00:03:30] specifically a nightclub, um, and moving more toward recognising that there are other needs people within our community have. I mean, I think the provision of of a space like a gay bar is is probably not there for many, many people. But the need for a safe place or a point to connect with others is still there. Um and that's an ongoing thing. I think when people [00:04:00] are are identifying who they are, where they're at, um and and where they're at, um, with with who they're at, sort of that whole process, um, that each of us engages in our own way. I think having a network that people can connect with and often they're going to, um they may go to different agencies. So what meal is doing is connecting with our community much more so we've kind of come out of the closet [00:04:30] in many ways. Um, and we're much more open about who we are, where we are, Um, is here we are at, um so one of the things we developed was the glip fab well being network. Now, the glit fab well, being network is about, um, working in partnership with our community. So we're not necessarily going to be providing all these amazing services around the community. But there are people who are doing that, and what we [00:05:00] want to do is to really support them in that role. And it can be a challenging process for many a challenging role. So, um, when practitioners are in need of information or a point of connection with others who are sharing that kind of work, it's really beneficial to have a good network, a network that can be pulled together at any time. And so so if there are professionals out around [00:05:30] the man who who aren't touch with someone who's queer, identified or gay, lesbian, bisexual Trans, if they are needing to get hold of someone for some advice or put people into it and people are doing that So, um and part of that, I think there's still that need for those baseline support groups, you know, those, um and certainly for our young people, definitely. We need those. And so Meal is looking at What is our role [00:06:00] in this And what do we need to do? Do we need to do it ourselves? Um, as a starting point. And so certainly looking at that, um, there are some supports already out there for for, um, people who are engaging trans issues. Um and, um, the challenges experienced in that we're not in a position to really work with that. That's not our US. But we do know people. So, um, [00:06:30] again, it's recognising. There are some people who are who are identifying who they are at a or speaking out about who they are at a later age. And while there are supports for younger people. Does Mal have a responsibility or a role, then, um, around working with people who are who are in that older age group. Um, because, like, I always think the needs we have are across the life span, and it's great that those services are are there for [00:07:00] our youth. But we we can't forget that, you know, there there are older people in our community, and we need to nurture them, too. Um, and I think so looking at that. And then, um, I'm thinking, Does Mel need to provide this? And if it does, who who's the best people to do it? And I always think people who walk that journey are always the best people. So linking into our own again, Um, and one of the other things we do is each year we [00:07:30] have a symposium, so we bring speakers together. We bring experienced people together and have them share their experience, share their their community development skills, their knowledge, their understanding and one or two people can pick up on that. So, last year, we had, um Well, we had a good learning last year. Never do it at labour weekend because everyone goes away, but, um, at Labour Weekend last year, we had great people, like and? [00:08:00] And Tom, um, we had, um, Tabby and Connor come through, and that was really good. You know, we we had awesome, awesome people, um, and and, um, to come and speak to us and challenge us and ask questions. And, of course, it finished with our opportunity then to feed back to our local MP. Um, City council people, and also, um, to have Louisa Wall join us. [00:08:30] So we were able to feed back, so it kind of came to a conclusion with that and then the ongoing challenge of moving on from there. So we're doing that and looking at how can we best meet, um, meet our community and make sure that our community is safe. So when we talk about a safe place, we're not just talking about a social venue, we're talking within all context. So that symposium was for the 30th anniversary [00:09:00] of Oh, no, that was That was just last year, did it? Yeah, we just did it. And so that was the glit symposium. And this year, we're doing symposium too, which would be an interesting challenge. so again we want to bring in speakers. There are there are people we would love to involve, for example, from the military from, um around our community to hear their experiences and [00:09:30] learn So with with that. So this move to to It's not as if you've got an office space or any permanent presence like that, is it? It's Can you tell us more about the place to be it? Really? It's a place to be and it places us. I think then that broader spectrum, that broader rainbow of what is the man too? If you look at Manu as really reflecting its community, then man is most definitely doing that with us [00:10:00] being here from our point of view. Um, but also it gives us the opportunity to reach out and connect with others. Um, so previously we'd been in square edge, so we've been down the back of the the long lane, which was safe for some people, but not for everyone. And then, of course, we we were upstairs, which was sort of like a closet upstairs. And I think we've come out in so many ways, and this is our our [00:10:30] I guess locating ourselves much more clearly within our broader community, so you can access. It's kind of lovely. That top Twins exhibition is on at the moment. It is so cool. Rebecca Swan's exhibition is very clear, and we had we had Rachel's exhibition on Butch and um, yeah, so you know, it's great to see this happening in Palmerston North. Who would have thought, um, that we would be doing this? It's just [00:11:00] really quite exciting.

IRN: 1128
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089784
TITLE: Krys Baker talks about MALGRA
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Krys Baker
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 2010s; Club Q (Palmerston North); Jac Lynch; Krys Baker; Lesbian support group (Palmerston North); Manawatu Lesbian and Gay Rights Association (MALGRA); Manawatu Scottish Hall (Palmerston North); Palmerston North; Palmerston North Women's Health Collective; Rachel Hoskin; Square Edge Arts Centre (Palmerston North); Te Manawa Museum; Women's Centre (Palmerston North); Women's bookshop (Palmerston North); ageing; bisexual; books; charity; coming out; community; disability; disability rights; family; feminism; gay; hardship fund; health care; intersex; lesbian; lesbian separatism; pool; safe space; soccer; softball; support; t-shirts; transgender; whānau
DATE: 9 July 2017
YEAR: 2017
LOCATION: Te Manawa Museum, 326 Main Street, Palmerston North
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So I'm with Chris Baker. I first met, Met Chris, Um, when I came to Palmerston North in 1988 and was desperate to come out. And the only way that I felt that I could do it was keep going into the woman's pork shop where I would see you, Chris. And you always gave me a lovely smile. Thank you. Um, and from there, eventually, Yeah, I ended up myself going into a flat with, um, lesbians joining the soccer team, joining the softball team and turning up [00:00:30] at pretty frequently. Um, what was your role in in at that time, Chris? Um, well, as far as is concerned, I've been, um, different had different positions in it. You know, um, I've been a past president, vice president, welfare officers, and part of when the lesbian line got up and running, there was a group of us that got us got that going. And the lesbian support group. And we had a little [00:01:00] office in square where we used to answer the phones on the Sunday night. I got someone else, and they were more nervous than me. Yeah, so I was sort of involved in that and, um through and yeah, because some of the the woman was when I first come out and, you know, I was 27 or something. We got involved in the community in the early eighties, [00:01:30] so So And then I got involved in the woman shop, so it was all interconnected, and I just got involved with the, you know, the social side and the committees and, you know, I was part of it. So it was always sort of part of my life and meeting people and and also being part of I had that sort of all interconnection with that, And the women and the women have collective, so it all sort of become interconnected. And and as you said, the shop was a good [00:02:00] place where a lot of people came and just sort of stepping in and, you know, because we had the books and, um, and all that and it was a safe place. I remember we had a chair by the desk, and it was always full. There's always people sitting there and just wanting to talk and you know, so how how important was it to be working alongside the guys on Well, well, to me personally, Um, it's never been, [00:02:30] and I suppose that's where I sort of come from. It's, um even though I sort of came out as a lesbian, I still had a lot of closeness with the guys, you know, because that's part of my life. There's always men in my life one way or the other and all this, but But we were a community, and the community was everybody. Whether you you were gay bisexual, you know, um, lesbian, [00:03:00] feminist, separatist, whatever we had all. So it was to me, it was important because, you know, a lot, you know, and the safety. You know, I suppose in some ways in those days lesbians, we had a lot going on. But I used to feel for the men because it was a lot more unsafe in some ways. But, you know, I just felt as a community that was what [00:03:30] community was about. It was all of us, not just one or the other. So, um, I know that changed from man to Gay Rights Association to M. So got the big L in there, and that was part of it is because it wasn't just about the gay rights. You know, it first started off with the men getting together, and that's the end of the, you know, in the 40 years ago, where they first met, [00:04:00] um, they used to meet at each other's homes and then they had, um was it on the corner there, One of the pubs I used to go up to and then they met Scottish Hall. They did all those things, and then the woman got more involved, and I think that probably would have been the early eighties. Um, there was a lot of, you know, women that I met, though, when I first came out. So it was important that it was inclusive, that it wasn't just about the men. I think [00:04:30] they started it as far as that's concerned, but it became more inclusive. And even like today, it's more with transgender and intersex, and it's just but we can't keep changing names all the time. How many T shirts can you have? A. How many colours? So I think, um, it just become very important because a lot of on the committees when I was involved there was, you know, there was men and women. [00:05:00] And I think we went to a stage that the president was a man in The vice president was a woman I was trying to think when I was president. Who was the vice president. Can't remember. But so it was sort of that and we had, you know, the lesbian support groups, and we had all those connections. And then when we moved up to the square where we had the club, too, that was it was a more social. We all met up there. We had the groups that met up there. We had the libraries, we had the resources, [00:05:30] and it was a great place in those days. But then it became more focused on the club, which to me, was a bit sad. But, um, but we still had a good place up there, you know? We got them play pool and, yeah, we had the nice lounge area. And so we had the libraries and and I think I was lucky for the woman shop that I had the resources that when women come out, I usually had the books [00:06:00] lost a few over the years, giving them out, but yeah, so this moving into To what? What do you think that means for? Well, I've gotta be honest. And I spoke to I've sort of gone through different feelings about it because having been part of at the beginning, when we didn't have a base and then we went through and we had the base, you know, we had the square edge, and then we had and, [00:06:30] um, we had our office and I wasn't sort of involved. I, you know, I've only been back in New Zealand since about 2011, and I've only just started getting back, you know, involved with Melbourne in the last year or so, I sort of felt a bit sad that we'd lost our base. I thought, How is this gonna work? And I thought, you know, and I went through like, I felt like we'd sort of gone a bit backwards, but having got involved with the committee [00:07:00] now, I think Well, maybe sometimes we need to go back to see where we come from for us to move forward. That's how I look at things. So I'm hoping that this No, I believe it will be a good move, You know that if we get more and with the committee, you know, and I probably bring a bit of the old stuff to it. Being the that we can, um, move forward and get back out of the community is what [00:07:30] we're supposed to be because there's lots of groups out there you know that need us. Still, we may feel a bit safer going out, um, to clubs and that, But there's still what's behind the You know, there's that whole connection with families and, you know, still a lot of families don't accept and, um, I want that to come out more that you know, that we're still out there and we still [00:08:00] that we're like everybody. Some of us got Children and you know, we're mothers. So there's still that role for the welfare. And, you know, we're talking about the um, hardship fund, which I'll be involved with and just supporting are gay, and an area I'm interested in is is lesbian gay with disabilities having disabilities and also our ageing community. [00:08:30] What's you know, what's gonna happen when we all end up in old people's homes, you know, you know, how is it? Do they go back in the closet. So the other areas I'm really interested in as we move forward, because it's not just about, you know, all the trend is about as we grow old. And it's also about, you know, we do have health issues and how do we support our our community? And there's a lot [00:09:00] that are at home, and I've worked in the community sector where there's a lot of people that don't go out. How do we reach them? And the lesbian and gay community? How do we reach them? Have you guys got ideas for us? Well, no, I think because I've just come back on and I you know, I said to Rachel that I'm really interested in that area so hopefully we can develop it over the next. You know, time because there's Rachel said. We are the oldest [00:09:30] club in New Zealand. It first started, really, and I think the guys started meeting about August November around that area. But we've always celebrated on Labour weekend. There's always been the shows every labour weekend. We used to always go out to the um was it the river? So I think it's it's part of us developing. We're getting older, and it it sounds like you've [00:10:00] got the space available space to have an office that you maintain. Well, that's right, you know, And I think that way we might be able to put what money? And we're going to become a charity because we haven't been able to be a charity, and I'm really looking forward to that. Um, to me, that means we become more of the community. We can get the funding, we can do more for our people. So and that's just what I'm here back here doing. Like that's all I want [00:10:30] is to work with the community. I might have one area. I'm more interested than the others. But, um, we all we're all gonna have different areas. We're going to be more passionate about.

IRN: 1127
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/malgra_welcomed_to_te_manawa_museum.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004489
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089783
TITLE: MALGRA welcomed to Te Manawa Museum
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Andy Lowe; Rachel Hoskin
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1970s; 2010s; Andrew Clayton; Andy Lowe; Aotearoa New Zealand; Club Q (Palmerston North); Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Jac Lynch; Manawatu Lesbian and Gay Rights Association (MALGRA); Manawatū; Museums Aotearoa; Museums Aotearoa conference (2017); Palmerston North; Rachel Hoskin; Square Edge Arts Centre (Palmerston North); Te Manawa Museum; Virginia Parker-Bowles; Wellington; bisexual; civil rights; conservative; exhibition; gay; hardship fund; homosexual law reform; human rights; inclusion; inclusive space; lesbian; museums; queer; queer rights; sexual rights; transgender; visibility; volunteer
DATE: 9 July 2017
YEAR: 2017
LOCATION: Te Manawa Museum, 326 Main Street, Palmerston North
CONTEXT: Audio from the welcoming ceremony for the Manawatu Lesbian and Gay Rights Association (MALGRA) to Te Manawa Museum. MALGRA is New Zealand's longest running LGBTI rainbow rights and social organisation. It has been running since 1977.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um it's just a fantastic, fantastic morning, and, um, we're so happy to see you all here. My name is Andy Lo. I'm the chief executive here at I've been here for a few years. Um and, um, today is a really, really important day for [00:00:30] us. Um, it's very, very exciting and heartwarming and a whole lot of other things. Um, and, uh, we just wanted to really welcome, um, lesbian Gay Rights Association here, uh, into into the building and into our our, um, our philosophies going forward. Um, it's as you will know it's international, um, day of, um, law reform in New Zealand. And it's the anniversary. That's hugely important for us to do this on. [00:01:00] So, um, there's a lot of a lot of background to that, and a lot of thinking that we've put into this and with Mel over the years has been working with us anyway over the last few years on a number of things, and it's so it's not a new thing. Um, Rachel and Andy have recently helped on the, um, National Museums conference that was held in Palmerston North. Um, and the theme was inclusivity. But Andy and Rachel were kind of key to that in terms of what museums could be doing in this country, but also in other countries. So people came from [00:01:30] all around New Zealand to to part, you know, to participate in the conference, and, uh, and was really, really integral to that. So thank you so much for all your work you've been doing over the last few years. And for this community, As you all know, it's a fairly, um, conservative community. So we have a lot to do, uh, in terms of, um, you know, working, working in that space, The people who have done that over the years anyway, So there's, you know, it's it's not, um, it's not a new thing, but, um, we just wanted to keep keep working on it, and we've got a lot to do. And we really thank those who have come from Wellington as well [00:02:00] today because it's a huge mission. And, uh, we know that some of you have come. Um, Jack, we really acknowledge your recent, um, partners, you know, departure from here. And, uh, know about all those sadnesses that people bring with them. So it's important that we recognise those today, and I just really wanted to welcome you. It's fantastic to see you all here, and we've got so much to do. Hey. And we're not gonna stop. We've just done a few little things, but we're not gonna stop. So, um, I'm gonna hand it over to Rachel, who's the president of now. [00:02:30] Thanks, Andy. So, um, as Andy said, I'm Rachel Hoskin, and I'm the president of Mel. Um and so we've got a bit of work to do. So, um, we have moved to, um, to from square, where we were just surviving. So Mel has been in the state of just surviving for a couple of years since we closed club Q. Um, closing of club Q was actually a good thing. So, uh, the the reason why club Q existed was to provide a safe space [00:03:00] for LGBT Q I, um if that's not needed, that's a good thing. So, um, so we were OK to let that go. Um, we went into, uh, square, and we just started to just survive. Um, obviously paying rent. And, um, and trying to just see what what needed to be done in the community. had been quite difficult for us. So moving in here with Andy's offer of being able to come to to Manu, uh, was a huge blessing for us, because now we we're able to to concentrate on what needs to happen [00:03:30] in our community. Um, and the current committee has, uh, looked at a few things. Um, one is we want to be more visible. Um, we want to provide, uh, a hardship fund for our community and set that up. Um, and we want to provide more events for our community as well. So, um, that kind of goes hand in hand with the visibility, actually, um, but, uh, those are the things that we want to be concentrating on now. So, uh, we're working really, really hard. Um, on those things, Uh, but we also have our 40th anniversary this year. So turns [00:04:00] 40 as the longest running gay organisation in the country. Um, and we're really, really proud of that. And it has been solely run over that 40 years on volunteers, never a paid person in in any position. So that's in itself is saying how strong? Um, our community is, um so we're really proud of that fact, um, club Q ran for, um, many, many years solely on volunteers. Um and, um, and all of our committee members are all volunteers, and our community is now banding together to, [00:04:30] uh, plan for our 40th anniversary events. That will happen in Labour weekend this year, which, uh, the majority of those if not all of them will happen at. So, um, so we're really looking forward to that. Um, So, um so, Yeah. So we're We're, um We're just working towards our our three goals at the moment of the visibility, uh, events and the hardship fund. Um, and trying to make sure that we reassess the needs of our community as we go along, because that's the most important thing. So that's what we're working on. That's what we're doing. We have a huge history behind us, [00:05:00] and we're gonna do some exhibitions over this year, uh, both at square and to show that history. Um and hopefully that will help with our visibility as well. So, uh, thanks, Andy. Thanks for allowing us to come into to Manu and help to move the organisation forward. Um, because I think that's really important.

IRN: 1130
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/sian_torrington_topp_twins.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004488
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089782
TITLE: Sian Torrington on the Topp Twins exhibition
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Sian Torrington
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 2010s; Alexander McQueen; Alexander Turnbull Library; Andy Lowe; Anti Springbok tour march (1985); Anti Springbok tour protest (1981); Aotearoa New Zealand; Arani Cuthbert; Auckland; Bastion Point; Bastion Point occupation (1982); Butch (2017, photographic exhibition); David Bowie; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Jools Topp; Lynda Topp; Manawatū; March against sexual violence (2017, Parliament); Mayor of Auckland; Museums Aotearoa; Museums Aotearoa conference (2017); National Library of New Zealand; Ngā Taonga Sound and Vision; Palmerston North; Rachel Hoskin; Sian Torrington; Springbok rugby tour (1981); Te Manawa Museum; The Topp Twins: an exhibition for New Zealand; Tomboy (song); Topp Twins; Waikato; We Don't Have To Be The Building (2016); Wellington; activism; anti-nuclear movement; archives; busking; butch; comedy; costumes; dance; dancing; dog; dress up; environment; exhibition; farm; farming; fearless; femininity; feminisation; fun; gender; gender equality; homosexual law reform; internet; interviewing; invisibility; kaupapa; kindness; laughter; lesbian; lyrics; makeup; masculine; museums; music; op shops; parents; performance; politics; posters; protest; queer; radio; rural; singing; social history; social justice; social media; television; working class
DATE: 6 July 2017
YEAR: 2017
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Sian Torrington, curator of the Topp Twins exhibition, talks about the process of developing the exhibition at Te Manawa Museum in Palmerston North. The exhibition ran from 20 May – 29 October 2017.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So, Andy Lowe, Uh, the director of Te Manu has been wanting to do an exhibition on the top twins for a number of years and been talking to, um, the them and their management about the idea of doing that. He was involved in the first exhibition, Um, in the Waikato, Um and so it Yeah, it felt like now was a really good time to do that. And he asked [00:00:30] me to curate it because of my previous, uh, project around homosexual law reform and activism and community engagement in that way. Yeah. So? So why are the top twins important? Um, the top twins are important for 1000 reasons, and I'm sure everyone in New Zealand probably has an answer to that, um, and and different answers. And maybe that's part of what makes them [00:01:00] important, because they are important to so many people in so many different ways and across really diverse identities and communities. Yeah, and I think one of the kind of phrases that kept coming up through the exhibition was, um they make us laugh, and they make us think, um and and it's fun. Um, so I think those three things are. Yeah, Makes them pretty important. And you were saying that there was an earlier exhibition on the top twins? When did that [00:01:30] happen? So that was, um I can't remember the exact date, but, um, in in 2012. That exhibition. Um, so that was the first exhibition on them. Uh, but it was It was very small. It was in a regional museum. And, um so, yeah, so that was a good sort of starting point. So in the archives, I found the object list for the exhibition. So [00:02:00] everything that they had, um, on show, um, to sort of see Yeah, see, See where the ideas started, really? To make an exhibition. So that quite surprises me because the top twins have been around well since at least the early eighties. If not, but before then, why do you think the first exhibition happened in 2012, I? I am not sure if people I think it's more of a contemporary thing to think about making exhibitions [00:02:30] about about musicians or about, um, particular people who are not necessarily artists like the Alexander McQueen exhibition or the David Bowie exhibition or, um, sort of looking at those all of the ephemera that's around a performative career. Um, so, yeah, and we're really lucky, because their, um, management and a Cuthbert has been [00:03:00] their manager for 30 years, and she's really kept everything. So we're extremely lucky to have all of that. Yeah. So, uh I mean, where do you start? Where did you start with With looking at the material I started, um, in the archives. So, uh, the top twins and their management deposited their, um, their collection into the Alexander Turnbull library at the National [00:03:30] library a couple of years ago. So that was really great, because it's all been catalogued. It's all been sorted through. Um, so that's where I started. And I spent many, many, many days, um, in the in the library, going through all sorts of things. Posters, set lists, uh, flyers, fan mail, um, documentation around tours. So, looking for looking for the [00:04:00] stories and the objects that were going to help us to tell those stories. Really? Yeah. So that's that's where I started. Kind of getting my own head around around the the sort of back stories. Yeah. And also in in, um, watching hundreds of hours of top twins footage of TV shows and concerts and everything that's in that's available there. Yeah. [00:04:30] So did you come across anything kind of unexpected? Um, I think the, um I didn't really know about how their career started. And I found that just a really fascinating thread about King on the streets in Auckland and being just going to Auckland being broke, going. Let's, uh we've got the guitars in the car, let's sing. And that being [00:05:00] the first, um, yeah, sort of public experience of singing on the street and making money and going, Oh, this works And then doing that every Saturday night for the next couple of years, you know? So I really, really enjoyed that story. Yeah, there's some amazing footage from those early days of the bus in a We were just so together. Yeah, they're just so they're so energetic. I think that really strikes me about [00:05:30] that early footage. Uh, even if they I could just watch their dancing in those performances. They're such physical performers and sort of back bends and, you know, it's like 100% commitment at all times. Yeah. Yeah, and fearless. That's What? II? I found it a very, um, encouraging experience making this show being part of making this show because they they [00:06:00] just went for it. And when I watch buskers on the street, I think about that and I sort of think you're either doing it or you're not doing it, you know? And if you're doing it, you've got to give it, give it everything and that's what that's what they did. And people were just so drawn to that. Yeah, and I guess fearless in some of the topics they were were choosing to sing about as well in in their kind of activist role. Absolutely. I mean, they are so direct with the lyrics. [00:06:30] They're So, um, I mean, my partner is a journalist and they often say to me with my own writing and just say what you mean. Say exactly what you mean and and it it's great to hear those kind of lyrics where they couldn't be any more direct and and sort of challenging and also really, really funny. And I think there's something that's, um, it's almost like it's funny or it's it's liberating to hear that kind of directness [00:07:00] because It's the sort of thing that we might think, but, oh, you couldn't quite say it like that, you know? But they say it for us. Yeah, and I mean, New Zealand was so different back in the early eighties. I mean, do you have any sense of how they were? Um, how they were received, um, back in those early days? Yeah. I mean, I think because because they were funny, it's so disarming and watching. There's, uh, a lot [00:07:30] of footage in the archives of of early tours. Um, and seeing how they they relate to people all over the country. And that's that's what I think is is really incredible about them because they can talk to radical queers. They can talk to farmers, they can talk to housewives, they can talk to the Farmers Federation union at a, um, a MP show and people we'll talk [00:08:00] to them and I they they really they really remind. Linda in particular, really reminds me of my first girlfriend, who is probably about the same age as them now. And and her thing was, she's, um uh, she's a working class person, and that's something that I get really strongly from them is they are working class farming girls, and that's how they talk to people. And that's what my ex-girlfriend was like. You just you just talk to. She used to say, [00:08:30] You just don't give people any any space to be homophobic. You just right up there and you stick your hand out and you say, Hey, how are you doing? You know, and um yeah, I think that's what they're like, too. And it's awesome. So talk me through some of the themes of the exhibition. So the exhibition starts with, um, their early lives and growing up. So it's just called Who are the top twins? Um, so looking at them growing up on the farm and um, leaving [00:09:00] home and going and doing Army training and and early activist stuff, um, And then and it goes into, uh, love for New Zealand, which is all about their TV TV shows. So I wanted people to have an opportunity to just sit down and watch the telly. Um, because that's how a lot of people you know came into contact with them in in our lounges. So I wanted it to feel a bit like a lounge, [00:09:30] and you can just sit there and watch the TV and have a laugh. Um, so that's the first two sections. And, um, there's also a whole lot of material around the TV shows and them going overseas and, um, that kind of thing. And then we go into a section that's been very popular, Um, which is called Becoming the Characters. Um, so that's, uh, that's all about their characters. So we are really lucky to have some original [00:10:00] costumes, Um, some of the very first costumes that they wore for many, many years. Um, and that's really wonderful. And we've got sort of sketches of of the costumes and makeup sheets. And so I wanted to try and take people sort of backstage, and there's footage of them talking about how they develop the characters and how they perform them. And then there's sets of, uh, of of costumes [00:10:30] that you can try on, and scripts and encouragement to to play. And so that's one of the things that I've been seeing. The most of on Social media is, uh, what we were hoping for, which is people dressing up and taking selfies and having a laugh. Um, and that was one of the parts that people said, Oh, you museum people said, Oh, you're crazy. No one will do that And I said, OK, well, we'll we'll just see a, um And on the [00:11:00] opening opening night, Linda and Jules were there and their parents and their brother and his partner, and, um and so we got to that section and people, uh, people just just went for it. Uh, a city councillor just put on a costume and said to her mate, Come on, come on. And so they were. They were can and can and they just picked up a script and did this performance. And Jules and Linda were absolutely cracking up and thought it was hilarious and were filming them. And I thought, This is Wow, This is a real sort [00:11:30] of, you know, snaking. It's own tale kind of moment. Where there's, you know, it's Jewel and Linda. And then there's the costumes. And then there's the real costumes behind us, and it's all and it's all just a laugh. And they had they had an audience, you know, these performers and everyone applauded, and so that was kind of my dream come true, really, is that I wanted people to be able to to to play and be expressive in in the in the gallery, in the museum. Yeah. So there's [00:12:00] some of the themes there's more. Yeah, and and then I guess with all that, uh, humour going on underneath that there's a whole lot of really heavy, heavy, quite heavy topics like, um, you know, LGBTI inclusion. Um, gender equality. I mean, they've been at the forefront of some really strong activist movements. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we could have made a whole show just about that. Really? Um, and the activism, uh, section [00:12:30] is the way that the, uh, the designer worked it, which was so beautifully done is that that was sort of the the centre of the show. And then everything. You can see that that section from every other part of the show. So it's kind of like the the the heart of what? They're what they're doing the drive of what they're doing. And they talk about it like that. Um, they both say, uh, you know, Jules says I, I don't think there's a day of my life [00:13:00] where I didn't feel political, you know, or, um Linda talking about, You know, it's not like you wake up one day and think, Oh, I don't feel like being political today. It's just, you know, you that's who you are, and you care. And, um so, yes, So that's a really important part of the show. And we focused on the four main, um, protest movements of of that time of of the 19 eighties. So, um, homosexual law reform, anti nuclear [00:13:30] protests, um, bastion point and the Springboks, of course, the Springbok. So, um, those those four are sort of the main themes. And it was exciting to have a show where you've got such personal, well loved people who also their lives almost kind of narrate a social history of that time. Um, and we wanted to. One [00:14:00] thing I'm really interested in in terms of social history is how we connect with each other through generations. So, um, Jules and Linda are nearly 60. Um, And when I interviewed them, they it was the day after all of these young people young women had marched on Parliament against sexual violence. Um, and they and they talked about that and they said, You know, it's really important that we that we know who fought for our rights in the past and [00:14:30] we celebrate them, and, um but they said, You know, those those 13 year olds you know, marching on parliament, we want to be there cheering them on and saying You go, girl, you know, And I found that really, really moving, You know, it's like, That's what That's what I hope the show can do for, for for people is go. You know, people have been doing this a long time and fighting for a long time, and this is how they did it. And you can do it [00:15:00] too. And you are doing it, you know, And we talked about how, um, that kind of protesting is is coming back. Um, and we're seeing it all over the world, people on the on the street and with placards and and meeting and the the insecurity of the Internet as a forum, you know, and people going back to to meeting in person. Um, so yeah, that's that's one of the things that I hope the show can can [00:15:30] give to people is is encouragement and, um, seeing that it's been done before, and it worked. So keep going. Yeah. So where do you think? Uh, Jules and Linda's kind of sense of social justice and activism comes from they say it comes from their upbringing. Um, and that they were always brought up That, uh, you should never you should never hate anyone and that you should that you should be [00:16:00] kind. And that fairness was really, really important. Um, so I mean, for me, that that goes back to that working class farming sort of, uh, values and and ethics really about Well, that's that's just not really on, is it? You know, it's, uh it's really refreshing to hear them talk about that kind of stuff because they keep it really simple. Um, so when they talk about the the the Springbok [00:16:30] and they say, um, you know, we grew up watching rugby and we used to get up in the middle of the night and watch rugby, and but when that was happening, we had to say to Mom and Dad, Hey, you know we're against the tour because it's it's not fair. And people are not. People are getting people are getting hurt and we we want to stand up for them, you know? So that's that's what they identify. Yeah, I'm really interested [00:17:00] in how we get a sense of a person or people from what they leave behind. And so you're in the archive. You're looking at all this material that I've collected over the years. How does your sense of the top twins from that compare to when you actually meet them? Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things that was really striking for me about the archives, um, is how much work has [00:17:30] gone into their career. Because, you see, you see all of the bookings. You see all of the fan mail, which they've answered You, um you see all of the planning and the, um you know, one episode about dogs and how many dogs they went through to find the right kind of dogs. And, uh, you know, all the permissions to use places. And I think for me, that was, you know, and as an artist as well myself [00:18:00] is like, Oh, yeah, all the stuff that you don't see when you just go to a show and you have a fantastic time And you think, Oh, that was great, you know, and they they look like they're having a fantastic time. And they are. But they've also worked really, really, really hard to bring you that experience in such a beautiful, seamless way. Um, so that's something that came across from the archives. And, um, yeah, I think it is really hard to get a real picture. For what? What [00:18:30] people leave behind. I mean, with them because they have the, uh because, of course, they have all the television shows and the recordings, and they they're very articulate talking about themselves. So they, uh, radio interviews. And so it all kind of comes together to make a picture. Um, but one thing I really wanted to try and get across in the show as a queer person, um, is what I don't [00:19:00] think comes across when you watch them on television and, um is that they're butchers, you know? There, there's there's strong, um, gruff butchers when you meet them, you know, and And it was great, because I Oh, yes, yes, I know this. I know this, uh, way of being, you know, and it takes a while to warm up and and they're not sure about you and and then Oh, OK, Yeah. You're you're all right, you know? And so, I, [00:19:30] I wanted to get that across in the show somehow as well, because I, um I I love that identity. I love butchers. They're wonderful. Um, and how does that go in? And so there was There are some images in the show that are, uh, you know, they they're very masculine. They're on motorbikes, they've got leather jackets on. And to me, it's like, Well, that's that's them just being [00:20:00] themselves, you know, um, being who they are just as people without all the characters without all of that stuff. Um, So it was really important to me that those, uh, those images went into the show and one of their newest songs, Jules has written it. And, um, I think it's just called tomboy. And it's it's all about that it's all about being butch being a tomboy. Um and so it was. I really want to honour that and make sure that came through. [00:20:30] Yeah, I mean that that's really interesting. In terms of of that kind of identity being invisible in some situations and I'm wondering, Do you think was that the top twins themselves constructing the kind of identity that they wanted out there in public? Or was it like, say, TV saying, Oh, you can't be too. But I think it's really interesting, because I think they, um like when they can and can. You know, people don't see them as butch [00:21:00] lesbians. They see them as can and can they see them as men? And so that's That's a really interesting sort of conversation around that. But I I know that they have been sort of, Yeah, Ma made up to sort of feminised a bit. Or, you know, So when we talked, there was sort of discussion around that of, Oh, don't use that photo. I always hated that photo, and it's It's the photos where someone has tried to, um, put more makeup on them or [00:21:30] feminise them in a particular way. Um, and there were some really interesting conversations around that within the team of of sort of well, should we make them a bit softer and me sort of going No, let's not make them a bit softer. Let's just leave them as as strong stroppy butchers, and that's really, really cool. Um, and yeah, we wanna we want to see that. And we want to celebrate that. Yeah, And in the in the museum, which is so wonderful. Um, [00:22:00] for the opening, there was, uh, an exhibition at the same time, Uh, which is called Butch, Um, by Rachel Hoskins. And it's a really wonderful photographic project of photographs of of butchers. And so, uh, I felt so good about that. I thought, Oh, that's such a wonderful welcome. Um, for them and acknowledgement. And so we we went through that that show as well together. And and so [00:22:30] that was That was neat. Yeah. It's good to see our people. So what is it like when you're curating an exhibition? That is, um, highlighting living people. Um, what is it like in terms of negotiating with those people in terms of how they're portrayed? What are the stories that are accentuated? Um, yeah, II. I guess I'm kind of trying to figure out, uh, how much control did the twins have? [00:23:00] And at what point did they come into the exhibition? Um I mean, my first answer to that question is it's terrifying. Um, So at the opening, it was it was really terrifying thinking. What are they gonna think? You know, and, yeah, living people, their parents, their you know, their people coming and and seeing. But, um, Jules and Linda, uh, made quite a conscious decision to just trust us and let it let it happen. Um, so they [00:23:30] got to see, they sort of they didn't want to see anything until it was All the ideas were all sort of a bit developed. And there was kind of a first draught, Really. And then we went to Auckland and met with their management and talked them through everything and left them with all of the plans and said, Look, you know, if anything needs to change, that's fine. Um, And then we went up, Um, in about March, I think, and met with Jules and Linda, [00:24:00] and that's when I interviewed them. And they gave us a lot of costumes and sort of, but it they they wanted it to be a surprise. So it was. It was a surprise, Um, exactly what it looked like. Um, and the museum, I thought, organised it really beautifully for the opening, so that they They went up first with their family, and and me and Andy and and yeah, cut the ribbon and but also went through [00:24:30] the show first. And people really respected that. People came in behind them. And, um so I think for them, it was, uh there were a lot of things that they had forgotten about. Um, so there was some really lovely kind of moments of of Oh, look at this Jaws. Look at Look, this is so and so and so that was That was really That was really lovely. Um, and parts where? Um Linda [00:25:00] Linda didn't have her have her glasses with her. So I said, What's this? What's this? And I said, this is the speech, uh, that account mother gave when when she ran for Auckland mayor. And so I I stood there and and and read her the speech. So it was, uh, it deeply relieving to feel like, Yeah, it's it's, uh it's a good reflection. It's an interesting reflection. And and that's what I. I worked very hard to make it as true [00:25:30] to to them and to their methods and to their and how they've run their career. the way that the show is and the way that audiences are invited to engage with it. So, um, they're very much, you know, do it yourself. Um, you know, how do we make the characters we go shopping, you know, So it was like, cool, Let people dress up. You know, I tried to take the lead on what to do [00:26:00] from what they've done. Um, yeah. And so what has the response been? The response has been really good, I think. I mean, I'm I'm here in Wellington, the shows in Palmerston North. So I don't get to kind of go and hang out and watch people going through the show. But I, I was there for, of course, for the opening. And there were a lot of people there, and there was a lot of a lot of laughter, a lot of spending time, Um, and a lot of responses. So in the activism [00:26:30] section, you're able to write on a mini placard what's important to you, You know, What do we need to change? What do we need to do now? And so those were really filling up with people's ideas. Um, And then I went back. Uh, there was the museum's a conference, and so, uh, I I went and just hung out. It's nice to just watch what people are doing. So it was great to see that people were just sitting down and watching TV [00:27:00] for a while, Um, and people with their kids and trying things on. And, um, yeah, so I think it's I think it's been really good. What's your favourite object? Or story or narrative? Um, there's a few. But I, I do really love the, um, camp mother running for Auckland Mayor. Um, for me, that's it. It's such an inspiring and fascinating and [00:27:30] queer story about, um, being being really political, seeing something that doesn't feel OK and going. I want to do something about that and doing it in a way which is so funny and so, uh and so political at the same time. So I love those kind of things where it's like you don't have to, uh, you don't have to play their game and wear a suit and sort of, you know, to engage [00:28:00] with politics. You can actually do it creatively and rebelliously, and people will follow you because, as Linda said when she was talking about it. You know, I'm a comedian. I'm a performer. So yeah, I know how to do a debate. I know how to win a debate. I know how to carry an audience, you know? And you think Wow. Yeah, absolutely. Those are all of the things that actually politics are about as well. Is that real performance? And, um, yeah, getting people to [00:28:30] come with you. So, II, I love that story. Yeah, yeah. Will the exhibition turn into anything else? So, like, a book or some online presence? Where do you think it will go from here? I mean that, um there are plans to tour the exhibition. Um, so that will take different forms and different museums. So, um, I, I really hope that people go and see it in Palmerston North because it's [00:29:00] like, that's, you know, that's the kind of ultimate way that we designed it. And and it's got all of the objects in and everything. Um, but I think yeah, I mean, I think that it has a lot of potential to have an online presence as well. And I think that it, um it starts a lot of wider conversations as well around social history and activism and and and play [00:29:30] and how that can happen. And, um so, yeah, I'm hoping that some things may unfold around that, Um, I also the interview that I did with them. I just wanted to put the whole kind of two hours into the show, which, obviously, you can't do so in the show. There's, you know, like one minute clips that you can listen to. But there are extended pieces, which, um, hopefully are gonna go up as as podcasts so that people can listen to, [00:30:00] you know, 10 minutes of, um, you know, Jules and Linda talking about how we're going to save the environment, for example, or, um so that was a really nice part of the show, because it's it's now it's it's them reflecting on on the themes of the show and on contemporary life, you know. Now, in March 2017, so, yeah, and just finally, what's what's next for Sean? [00:30:30] What's next for Sean? Um well, I want to unfold some of the things that, uh, that came up out of. We don't have to be the building, so I want to, um, make a publication about that and also hoping to run quite a big event. Um, which will bring together a lot of the things we've been talking [00:31:00] about. How do we How do we archive queer stories? How do we share them? How do we talk to each other across, um, across generations? Yeah, that kind of thing. And more art making and hopefully more curating shows. I mean, I really loved doing this show very, very special. Um, and very, very precious to to me personally to Yeah, have have been asked to do that. It was a real honour. Yeah.

IRN: 1123
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/expungement_of_convictions_parliament_6_july_2017.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004487
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089781
TITLE: Parliament: first reading of the Criminal Records (Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences) Bill
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Amy Adams; Annette King; Chris Bishop; David Carter; Denis O'Rourke; Grant Robertson; Jan Logie; Jono Naylor; Louisa Wall; Marama Davidson; Marama Fox; Paul Foster-Bell; Sarah Dowie; Trevor Mallard
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1960s; 1980s; 2010s; Aceh (Indonesia); Alan Turing; Amy Adams; Annette King; Anti Springbok tour protest (1981); Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Campaign to Pardon Gays in Aotearoa; Canada; Chris Bishop; Civil Union Act (2004); Crimes Act (1908); Crimes Act (1961); Criminal Records (Clean Slate) Act (2004); Criminal Records (Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences) Act 2018; David Carter; Denis O'Rourke; Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT); Fran Wilde; Frank Sargeson; Germany; Godfrey Wilson; Grant Robertson; Green Party; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Horowhenua; Human Rights Act (1993); Indonesia; Invercargill; Jan Logie; Jono Naylor; Justice Committee; Katherine O'Regan; Kevin Hague; LV Martin and Sons; Leonard Hollobon; Lindsay Tisch; Louisa Wall; Marama Davidson; Marama Fox; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Massey University; Maureen Pugh; Member of Parliament; Ministry of Justice; National Party; New Plymouth Prison; New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF); New Zealand First; New Zealand Herald; New Zealand Labour Party; Ngahuia Te Awekotuku; Norman Jones; Paul Foster-Bell; Peter Dunne; Ruth Dyson; Sarah Dowie; Secretary for Justice; Springbok rugby tour (1981); St Peter's church; Statistics New Zealand; Te Paati Māori; Trevor Mallard; United Kingdom; Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948); Wellington; Wiremu Demchick; acceptance; age of consent; apology; army; aversion therapy; church; civil unions; coming out; compensation; consensual sex; convictions; criminal background check; criminalisation; depression; dignity; discrimination; diversity; drug therapy; embarrassment; employment; equality; family; flogged; gay; gender identity; government; gross indecency; hate; homophobia; homosexual; human rights; indecent act; indecent assault; isolation; love; marriage; marriage equality; mental health; murder; pansy; pardon; parents; persecution; perversion; petition; police; prejudice; prison; prisoners; psychiatric hospital; psychiatric treatment; psychiatrist; queer; religion; respect; select committee; self confidence; self esteem; self hate; sex; sexual abuse; shame; sodomy; stigma; suicide; tolerance; transgender; travel; whakapapa; whipped; whānau; youth
DATE: 6 July 2017
YEAR: 2017
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I call on Government Orders of the Day Numbers one and two Criminal records Expungement of convictions for historical homosexual offences Bill First reading and government notice of motion number one regarding an apology to homosexual New Zealanders convicted for consensual adult activity The Honourable Amy Adams. Mr Speaker, I move that the criminal records expungement of convictions for historical homosexual offences [00:00:30] Bill be now read a first time I nominate the Justice and Electoral Committee to consider the bill. I also move government notice of motion number one that this house apologise to those homosexual New Zealanders who are convicted for consensual adult activity and recognise the tremendous hurt and suffering those men and their families have gone through and the continued effects the convictions have had on them. Mr. Speaker, today we're putting on the record that this house deeply [00:01:00] regrets the hurt and stigma suffered by the many hundreds of New Zealand men who were turned into criminals by a law that was profoundly wrong. And for that we are sorry. We're acknowledging that these men should never have been burdened with criminal convictions and we're recognising the continued effects that the convictions have had on their lives and the lives of their families. New Zealand has a proud reputation for fairness, freedom and diversity. It's unimaginable today that we would criminalise [00:01:30] consensual sexual activity between adults. Almost four years ago, this parliament passed the Marriage Definition of Marriage Amendment Act 2013 to allow same sex couples to legally marry, and I was proud to vote in favour of it. Today is another historic day for the New Zealand gay community and their families as Parliament formally apologises for the hurt caused by the convictions and takes the first reading of a bill to expunge those convictions, [00:02:00] Mr Speaker, it is never too late to apologise. While we cannot ever erase the injustice, this apology is a symbolic but an important act that we hope will help address the harm and right this historic wrong. The Homosexual Law Reform Act of 1986 decriminalised sexual conduct between consenting males aged 16 and older, the right to be free from discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation, was later [00:02:30] recognised in the Human Rights Act of 1993. However, convictions for those offences remain on record. This means that they can appear in criminal history checks and those New Zealanders continue to be tainted with the stigma that such convictions carry. This bill seeks to address the ongoing stigma, prejudice and other negative effects arising from a conviction for a historical homosexual offence by creating a statutory scheme for [00:03:00] a convicted person or a representative on their behalf of that person is deceased to apply for the conviction to be expunged. This is the first expungement scheme ever to be created in New Zealand, reflecting the uniqueness of the situation. I cannot think of any other situation where a government in this country would seek to rewrite criminal histories based on changes in societal views. It is clear that the laws under which the men are affected were convicted [00:03:30] have not represented the views of most New Zealanders for many years, and it's right that we now formally recognise that while it's impossible to know the exact numbers, it's estimated that around 1000 people may be eligible to apply under the scheme. This is based on analysis of conviction data published by the then Department of Statistics on people convicted of indecency between males, which was the most common offence prosecuted between 1965 and 1986. [00:04:00] The bill provides that the Secretary of justice will be the decision maker and expungement applications. The secretary will determine on the balance of probabilities whether the application meets the test for expungement. If the application is successful, the conviction would not appear on a criminal history check and the person would not be required to disclose information about the expunged conviction for any purpose. It will be as if they were never convicted. It will be free to apply for an expungement, [00:04:30] and the test will be that the conduct constituent uh constituting the offence would not be an offence. Under today's law, this test is necessary to ensure that historical convictions are not expunged if the conduct was nonconsensual or the parties were not of legal age. In other words, if the behaviour would still be considered criminal today, five historical his uh homosexual offences are covered by this bill. These include offences under the Crimes Act 1961 that were repealed by the Homosexual [00:05:00] Law Reform Act of 1986 and the predecessors of those offences under the Crimes Act 19 08. The offences involve those of indecency between males, sodomy and the keeping of places of resort for homosexual acts. The scheme will be open to applications from people with historical convictions for offences relating to sexual conduct between consenting men. If the person is deceased, a representative, such as a family member or partner, will be able to make the application [00:05:30] on their behalf. The primary obligation to provide information and support of an application will fall on the applicant and the secretary of justice will be able to obtain any further information he or she considers necessary to make a proper assessment of the application. The applicant will not be required to make any appearance in person, nor will the effect of the application be made public to protect the privacy of those involved. The bill is modelled on a number of schemes in Australian states, England and Wales. [00:06:00] The New Zealand scheme is more closely aligned with those in Australian states where people can apply to have their convictions disregarded. It would not be appropriate to go further and create a blanket pardon for all historical uh, convictions for homosexual offences. It is possible that people convicted under the appeal offences would have been convicted for conduct, which is still illegal today, for example, if the activities concerned were not consensual. A case by case assessment of the facts of each case is therefore necessary [00:06:30] to clarify whether the conduct would be lawful. Under the current law, the bill relies on an application by the effective person or their representative because not every convicted person will want an investigation into the history of their conviction. There is a need to respect the privacy of those who choose, for whatever reason not to pursue the option of having a conviction expunged. In addition, there would be real limitations on the ability to investigate a case without the cooperation of the affected person, [00:07:00] as they will often be the primary source of information for the decision maker. Mr Speaker, let me once again acknowledge the enormous pain that the New Zealanders affected by these convictions have lived with. It is my hope that this bill and Parliament's apology will go some way towards addressing that as well as acting to once and for all. Remove the taint and the label of criminality we want by these actions to formally acknowledge and put on record [00:07:30] both the hurt and the damage caused and the fact that those convictions should not have occurred. Mr. Speaker, I proudly commend the bill to the house. Very good [00:08:00] morning. Um, the question is that the motion be agreed to Grant Robertson. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I want to thank the minister for her motion [00:08:30] and the bill that she is bringing before the house today and for her personal leadership in bringing this important matter before us. It's hard from a perspective of 2017 to comprehend a world in which it was a crime for two adult men to love one another. It is harder still to imagine the feelings of anxiety, fear, despair and depression that such a law engendered. [00:09:00] I cannot say it better than one of the submitters on petition who quoted a man whose conviction forced him to resign from the army. And these are his words. This conviction still leads after 53 years to self hatred, worthlessness, unjustified guilt and shame to relieve the anguish and pain. Chronic drinking and self-destruction took control over [00:09:30] the next 10 to 15 years until the realisation that I was not a two headed monster, and there were many others like me throughout the world. He he goes on. I love my country but live in fear of being found out of further humiliation. Panic attacks When I see a uniformed police officer and a general feeling of being unworthy to be myself, something few others would understand should this petition [00:10:00] be approved, it would be it would be, at this late point in my life, a chance to respect myself and to feel some dignity in my final years. Mr. Speaker, we owe him and thousands like him. Not just an apology, but our respect and a sense of dignity. This apology and this bill begin to do that. Two weekends ago, I had the honour of attending [00:10:30] a service to mark the 50th anniversary of the delivery of a sermon by the Reverend Godfrey Wilson at Saint Paul's Church in Willow Street in June 1967 highlighting the treatment of homosexuals. It was a radical call for acceptance and inclusion at that time, the core of the sermon is about a man named John who is met by a prison chaplain. John is an able person, intelligent. He works in a bank, but he's now [00:11:00] in prison. He had found love with Colin, and they had moved into a flat together. It wasn't easy. There were tensions and quarrels, but there was also love. After being together a year, the landlord gave them notice. Another tenant had complained about about pansies in the building. In the stress that followed, the relationship between John and Colin ended, John became depressed and his life spiralled down until he was imprisoned for 12 [00:11:30] months for his homosexual activities. John said to the chaplain, And I quote, If you fall in love and marry, that's fine. But if I fall in love and want to share it, that's perversion and must be persecuted and punished. Do you wonder that I have thought of suicide? What is there for me? Who cares about me? Mr. Speaker, let us be clear. The illegality of homosexuality, the arrests and [00:12:00] the imprisonments and the fear of that happening did not just ruin lives and destroy potential. It killed people. Hundreds, possibly thousands of lives have been lost because men could not bear the shame, the stigma and the hurt caused by this parliament and the way that society viewed them as criminals. It is for all of that that we must apologise [00:12:30] and as a government and a parliament to those men who are still alive and to those that have passed on and their families and to those families. It is important that you take the opportunity afforded by this legislation to give dignity and death to your relatives that this parliament did not allow them in life. I also want to speak today to those gay men who were [00:13:00] not convicted in this period, but rather who lived through it in the face of discrimination in the face of hate and in the face of stigma. We also owe all of you an apology. Whether you were convicted or not, this law was wrong and made your life worse. I want to salute the bravery and courage of all of those homosexual men who lived [00:13:30] through that and then protested and then brought that to the attention of the world. I think in 1986 of those gay men who signed a letter in the New Zealand Herald that put their name to their sexuality and put at risk their lives and their careers that bravery and courage should be acknowledged today as well. On a personal note, Mr Speaker, to all those men, I add my apology. [00:14:00] But I want to do more than that. I want to say that I respect you. I honour you and I stand on your shoulders. Today. The fact that I, as a gay man, can be out and proud and a member of Parliament is but a small tribute to you. But more so than that, Mr Speaker, Next year, ALF and I will celebrate 20 years of being together and early the next year 10 years of our civil Union. And next [00:14:30] week we'll get to look after our grandchildren in the school holidays. All things that would have been unimaginable to you. But yet which are your legacy? We owe to you as well that we will continue to fight for inclusion and fairness for all in our society. Mr. Speaker, Turning to the bill itself In the last 30 years, much has been achieved from homosexual law reform to the Human Rights Act to civil unions to marriage, equality. [00:15:00] And it was right that those things were done. But now is the right time to make this wrong right and expunge for all time. Those unwarranted and hurtful convictions. Creating a process to do this is going to be difficult. Other countries and jurisdictions have grappled with how to make this work. I look forward to a select committee process on this bill that finds a process that is as fair and as quick as it can be in the UK. They have found categories of convictions that are easily [00:15:30] identifiable as simply being the result of being lewd conduct. I acknowledge in New Zealand it is not as easy to separate that out. And we need look no further, Mr Speaker than the life of one of our greatest authors, Frank Sarge. For this, Frank began life as Norris Davey, a gay man. Norris had a number of casual relationships with men and in the late 19 twenties, and Wellington went home with another man named Leonard. Hola. Police had been monitoring Mr Holi and burst into his room when Frank and he were in [00:16:00] bed together. They were arrested for committing indecent assault. They were, of course not, but rather two consenting adults. In any event, Frank was convinced to testify that he was an innocent party in return for a suspended sentence. Whereas Mr Holi got five years hard labour at New Plymouth Prison. How on earth do we untangle cases such as this? Where everything is not as it appears. I think the committee will need to work hard to find a process that [00:16:30] is not unnecessarily burdensome and in it has an element of trust in those who survive and their families. Mr. Speaker, I want to in my final, uh, period of time, look towards the future. The other issue that the Committee is going to have to deal with is that of compensation. This is a fraud issue. I know that in other countries, particularly in Germany, in just the last few weeks, they have established a system of compensation. I encourage the committee [00:17:00] to look carefully at this issue, to see what is possible and to even consider the option of being a little creative about the possibility of using some form of funding and money to support those today who come out those today who grapple with their gender identity. Because, Mr Speaker, what we should do on this occasion today is not just apologise for the wrongs of the past, but make a commitment to take the journey from our current tolerance of difference [00:17:30] and diversity to one of acceptance, embracing and celebrating diversity. Because for all of the legislation that we have passed the opportunities we have created, we are not there yet because even today the shame and hurt of being different from the majority still exists. Young people are still given the message that being who they are simply being in love is something that the rest of society is tolerating. Putting up with allowing That's not good enough, Mr [00:18:00] Speaker, today not just gay men, but lesbian, bisexual, transgender, intersex and all the colours of the rainbow need to know that we love them for who they are and the rich and amazing contributions that they make. Today is a day to celebrate progress. But if there's a chance to make wrong right that wrong of the past, we must give the ultimate legacy of a country that includes embraces and cares for all our people. [00:18:30] I I call uh, Mr Speaker in speaking to the criminal records expungement of convictions [00:19:00] for historical homosexual offences. Bill, I want to begin by thanking the chair of the Justice and Electoral Select Committee, Sarah do for yielding what would traditionally be her call in this debate to me, uh, as the first openly gay member of the national caucus, I'm very proud that it is a national government which has taken this step, uh, to do the right thing and to to, um, make some amends for these historic wrongs, which we are discussing today. [00:19:30] I want to also observe, um, that it's a very, uh, strong female member of justice who follows in a strong tradition of female members who have, um, brought justice and clarity in these regards. And I'm talking about, of course, uh, Dame Fran Wilde, who was, uh, the driving force behind decriminalisation in the 19 eighties. I'm talking about the honourable Catherine O'Regan, who is associate minister of health. Uh, made the crucial contribution that saw, uh, discrimination [00:20:00] against people on the basis of sexuality being made illegal in 1993. I also acknowledge across the aisle in the house today, Lesa Wall, Uh, who's Bill brought in? Marriage equality. Uh, and today, the honourable Amy Adams, who is Minister of Justice, uh, is is, uh, seeking to expunge the criminal records for those who apply for it, Uh, in, uh, what I think is a a very important piece of legislation. Uh, Grant Robertson, Uh, who [00:20:30] said Nothing I disagree with in his speech. It's the first time ever. Probably, uh, in this house, Um, Grant observed that, uh, in the past, people were stigmatised, not just those who were convicted of offences. Um, but the entire LGBT community was stigmatised. And that by, uh, passing this legislation that we may actually, uh, bring some, uh, give dignity to those people. Well, I actually think it will also [00:21:00] restore dignity to this house. Uh, I'm a very proud, uh, supporter of our relationship with the United Kingdom. We inherited much, Uh, that is good from our colonial and imperial forebear. But the persecution of gay men in particular was one of those things that we inherited, uh, through our, um, crimes act. It was, uh, embedded by an act of this parliament in 19 08 and further embedded in 1961. And frankly, in my view, uh, Mr [00:21:30] Speaker, those were measures which actually brought, uh, shame upon this house and diminished our mana as a Legislature, which should have, uh, pride in being fair minded at treating people equally and, uh, and supporting a country which values diversity. So I think, uh, in considering this act today, we are going some way to restoring Mana, uh, to this house, which might otherwise have been diminished by those steps in the past. So this isn't just [00:22:00] a theoretical, uh, or symbolic measure. It will have a practical effect for a number of New Zealanders. Uh, last year, I met a gentleman who, uh, had an historic, uh, conviction, uh, for homosexual offences. Uh, who is a teacher? He's still a teacher. He's in his sixties now. And every five years he has to renew his teaching certificate, uh, with educ cans or previously, the teaching council. And this is a gentleman who has to, on a five yearly basis, explain to whoever is his principal at the time [00:22:30] why his criminal record comes back from the Ministry of Justice with an historic sexual offence listed, Uh, this is embarrassing and upsetting for him and obviously a cause for concern in in in any school when they're going through the proper process of verifying that their teachers are safe people to have around young, uh, New Zealanders, our Children of this country. Um, and this is an example of a real person who, uh, through the passage of this bill, uh, once his application [00:23:00] is processed, uh, will not face that unnecessary stigma, uh, that he has to live with. Uh, today, uh, sir, I think, um, there are some challenges involved in this. We, uh, on the Justice and Electoral Committee had the advantage of visiting, uh, Sydney and discussing, uh, with the justice officials of the state of New South Wales. The process they went through when they considered their version of this bill. Um, but I think, uh, those issues can easily be overcome, uh, through the hardworking, uh, [00:23:30] efforts of the Justice Select committee. Uh, so this bill, um, fixes, uh uh or at least gives some redress to a real issue for several 100 New Zealanders who are still affected by these historical convictions. It also sends, I think, a powerful message to our LGBT community in New Zealand, particularly the younger members of that community, that they are valued that their lives are worthwhile, that we, as a parliament do care that [00:24:00] we want to see every New Zealander treated fairly. Uh, and we want to right the wrongs of the past. I think it's an excellent bill. I commend my colleague, the honourable Amy Adams, for getting it through to this point, and I hope it will be passed unopposed in this house. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr. Speaker, This is a red letter day. It is a day that is both noteworthy and will be memorable, Memorable [00:24:30] for many, memorable for gay men, persecuted and prosecuted for having consensual sex with another man, men who were isolated and alienated and forced to seek relationships in places like public toilets and secrecy and in fear. This day will be memorable for family and friends who have waited since the passage of the Homosexual law reform bill [00:25:00] on the 11th of July 1986 31 years on, 31 years on, since a politician in this house told gay men to go back to the sewers where they belong, 31 years since conceptual, consensual sex stopped being a criminal offence with terms of imprisonment. Mr. Speaker, there are very few of us left in this house [00:25:30] today who supported homosexual law reform back in 1986. It's so much easier, I have to say. Now Trevor Mallard, Peter Dunn and myself are the last remaining members who voted for that bill. I also want to acknowledge Ruth Dyson, who did a lot of work on for this bill. Working for Fran Wild stuck in Fran's house [00:26:00] for week after week, working on submissions for members Today, it is hard to imagine the fierceness of the debate of the time, month after month of foul rhetoric, of intense pressures put on members of Parliament not to vote for the bill, the threats, the months of filibuster by the opponents. And I was a new member of parliament in a rural seat in New Zealand, the seat of [00:26:30] and I was told, if I voted for homosexual law reform, I would lose my seat. In fact, at the following election, I increased my majority. I want to commend the courage of the campaigners for reform reform. Before homosexual law, Bill was passed right through to today. They are our heroes. They were on the streets. They campaigned, they petitioned, they never stopped. [00:27:00] And I want to today, knowing that Fran Wilde is not in New Zealand at the moment to commend her courage, she was perhaps the most courageous member of Parliament that I have ever met. So on the 11th of July 1986 a bill was passed. The war was won, but not the battle that is taking longer. There are still human rights to be addressed, and I just want to mention [00:27:30] one particular group transsexual people, transgender people. I think there is still too much discrimination, too much stigmatisation of this very vulnerable group. And I look forward when we can remove that discrimination for these people as well. I commend the minister for bringing the bill and the apology to this house. I think hope that it was a report [00:28:00] that I sent to her, which I'm going to read part of in a moment from one of my constituents that led her to changing her mind about having uh, an expunging bill because she did write to me in April last year, saying there was no she had no plans to have such a bill. I sent her a signed a statement from a constituent who has been visiting me since 1998. [00:28:30] And I have to say, since 1998 I have been advocating for there to be such a bill, and I'm sorry that we could not and did not. In our clean Slate bill of 2004 includes, uh, such a provision because between 1980 1986 the Ministry of Justice shows just in that small period alone, there were 879 convictions for men who had consensual sex [00:29:00] with men. My constituent came to me once again 18 months ago, and I said, put down exactly what you went through, and I will give it to the minister. We both signed the statement. I'm not going to identify my constituent and I'm not going to read all of it, but I want you to hear this part. I met X at the end of 1968 when I was 18 years old. In my first year at University, [00:29:30] I had known for several years I was gay and we began a relationship, and I frequently stayed overnight in his flat. An ex flatmate informed the police that we were queers. That night we went to bed and We were woken at 5 a. m. by a torch being flashed in our face and being gruffly told by two male police officers to get out of bed. We were arrested and taken [00:30:00] to the police station. The end result was X and I were charged and convicted of indecent assault on each other, and we were sentenced to 18 months probation. We were directed by the magistrate to never see each other again, to report regularly to the CIB office and to take psychiatric help As directed. I was sent to a psychiatric hospital where I was psychoanalysed [00:30:30] and after two weeks told was told by the psychologist that I was more sane than most people outside. But my Self-esteem had been shattered. I was very upset and my my parents were troubled by the arrest. Because of the deep embarrassment I have felt about the conviction, I have never travelled to a country which would require a visa. I have never worked overseas, which [00:31:00] I'd very much like to do. I have had no other convictions since 1969. It may seem strange to somebody who's not experienced this, but I feel I am haunted by it. I feel. Think about it every day, every night I spend time locking doors and windows before I go to bed to ensure no intruder will enter again while I'm asleep. I've never told anybody, but at times [00:31:30] I feel unworthy wondering what people would say about somebody if they knew the charge, indecent assault on a male and not understanding what really happened for 28 years. I feel I did not feel able to discuss it with anybody except two friends. And this is signed by my constituent, but also by his lover of the time. And I hope [00:32:00] that this bill will expunge this man's conviction because that is what it must do. I'm not saying it's going to be easy because there is a process that must go through and there is going to be a decision made by somebody else that it has to be expunged. But I hope that we are on. We are on the right track, Mr Speaker, With this bill, I also applaud the apology. It is a very fulsome apology. [00:32:30] I just put one little note in here. I found it sort of ironic that on the day of this apology, The deputy prime minister said she didn't believe in mass apologies and she would only thought of individual ones when it came to those who are asking for help. Um who've been discriminated against in institutions. But this is to the minister a very good apology and we are a generous people. Mr Speaker, we have apologised before [00:33:00] a Labour government apologised to the Chinese in New Zealand who were forced to pay a poll tax because they were Chinese. We apologise to Samoa for the suppression of a national, the nationalistic movement when they were under our rule, we've apologised for other things. Uh, we are a generous people and this is an apology that is long overdue. I know that it will be welcomed by so many people. I certainly welcome it. [00:33:30] And in my dying days of being in this parliament, I am just so pleased to see that we have such an apology and a bill to finish this part of what has been discrimination over so many decades in fact generations. So, Mr Speaker, I commend the minister and I commend this house and hope that every member of it will go and vote for the bill and support the apology. [00:34:00] The people who have suffered for so long deserve nothing less. Mr. Chair, I call Sarah do. Oh, thank you, Mr Chair. It truly is an honour and a privilege, uh, to rise in support of this motion of apology and in favour of the, uh, criminal records expungement of convictions for historical homosexual offences. Bill [00:34:30] in its first reading, and the significance of this day is not lost on me. It is significant for New Zealand. It is significant for the LGBT community. And, um, it goes to start the process, um, of healing, uh, to start overcoming some of the hurt that these men have experienced some of the prejudice that these men have experienced, uh, who were consenting adults, Um, [00:35:00] but convicted of a crime that, quite frankly, um, I can't imagine a New Zealand, uh, back in the day when if you were a consenting adult, that you couldn't love a person because they were the same sex or they may be a different race or whatever the prejudice may be, But I certainly can't imagine in New Zealand, um, back in those times. So to live through that must have been incredibly distressing [00:35:30] to be punished for it must have been horrific. And the ramifications of such convictions are life changing as those men walked through life. Um, but as I said, this is a significant day for New Zealand for the LGBT community and for this house as we start, uh, to right the wrongs of the past and move forward. And I am very, very pleased to be the chair of the Justice [00:36:00] and Electoral Select Committee, uh, to lead this process as we do so and so to pay tribute to the Justice and Electoral Select Committee. Uh, who have heard from Dek, um, the petitioner who, um, called for this very subject to be, um, investigated. And for us as a committee, too, to visit Australia, to look at their expungement schemes on this issue. To compare and contrast, I [00:36:30] feel that our collegial committee is best placed to start looking at the issues of this scheme, uh, to look at the advantages and disadvantages of, uh, looking at evidence on the papers, uh, looking at evidence on the balance of pro, uh, probabilities and looking at some of the, uh, old offences that some of these men's men were charged at and what that would bring about, um, and what it [00:37:00] would look like as a final scheme for expungement. I feel that we are best placed to, uh, debate that fairly. And, uh, to look at that in an analytical way to bring about, uh, the best result for these people that have been subjected to this, uh, prejudice, which we all know is, uh, as I said before, distressing and and quite wrong. So I look forward, [00:37:30] uh, to this bill, uh, coming to our select committee, uh, to us calling for submissions. Um, including, uh, what the petitioner has brought to our committee by way of information and processing that and working collegially, uh, to get the best result for these people and for New Zealand moving forward. And as such, um, again, I say a significant day for New Zealand and the L GB community, and, [00:38:00] uh, I commend this bill to the house I call Jan Logie. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Um, it's a huge honour for me to be able to stand and speak in support of this legislation today. And I want to start by acknowledging the community presence here today. Um, and I know it organised at late notice on a work day. Um, it's I think it it signifies the importance of [00:38:30] this to all of us in the community. And I think you do honour to our elders who we are today acknowledging, and also, um, recognising that the shame that they've been carrying has been felt by all of us. So thank you for being here and for your, um I also want to specifically thank um and the campaign to pardon gays and a, um who presented the green [00:39:00] party MP Kevin Hague with the position that was the immediate catalyst for this apology and the expungement that will follow. Well done. You, um you know, it was not a matter of chance. I suspect that Kevin received the petition, considering the greens have always voted unanimously in support of progressive LGBTI Q a legislation. Um, but it's also, I assume because Kevin was [00:39:30] an out gay man in the 19 eighties, living under the cloud of these oppressive lords and campaigning for decriminalisation, he was one of those men who put his life at risk for this campaign and for our collective well-being. Kevin, who sadly um, is not able to be here today because he's no longer in Parliament, asked me to, um, let people know that he's watching and to acknowledge the [00:40:00] work of Jen Lawless, Rian Thomas and Sam Carter, who worked in his office assisting with the setup of this petition. And as it went along, um, today's apology to the bisexual and gay men convicted for consensual adult activities will be a statement as a statement from this parliament. It was the parliament that in 19 05 and 1961 introduced or legalised [00:40:30] homophobia it over. Those laws overrode indigenous laws that held same and both attracted practises and people and diverse gender expression as natural. That was the status quo. Before this government introduced legislation to introduce homophobia, parliament passed the laws that made these [00:41:00] men and so many others outlaws. So it is appropriate that we collectively apologise in the from the petition, the select the Justice and Electoral Select Committee heard from men whose lives were ruined by these laws and their experiences of being convicted. We heard of men whose lives were made small when they could have been huge [00:41:30] because of these convictions. We heard of people isolated and stigmatised and beaten and abused because of these laws and these convictions, and we know that people died as a result of this homophobia. And surely this legislation supported the legitimization [00:42:00] of seeing homosexuality as a mental illness that saw gay people institutionalised through the sixties and seventies and subjected to elect ECT where we know, through that same period where men were being sent to jail, they were also being institutionalised, tied up and drugged and given electrocution through the state's institutionalised homophobia. [00:42:30] We need to acknowledge the harm that has been created before we can undo it. And that is a lesson that I hope this parliament sits and absorbs because it goes beyond this piece of legislation. We need to consider that in many other contexts, and we are being asked to at the moment to those men who were criminalised [00:43:00] and irreparably hurt, who have been left, in the words of one submitter with quote, self hatred, worthlessness, unjustified guilt and shame. Unquote, On behalf of the Green Party, I want to say clearly the shame does not belong with you. The shame belongs with this parliament and our [00:43:30] society for robbing you of your inherent and inalienable rights. We can't undo the damage. But we have listened and heard. We hope that today represents another step towards healing for you. I also hope this house and our country takes today as a moment to reflect. [00:44:00] There is still much work to do to eliminate the prejudice, fear and hatred that these laws established and embedded in our society. Surely the impact of these laws can be the only explanation for the failure of successive governments to ensure access to health care for trans people, for the failure [00:44:30] to ensure our young people are not made invisible in our schools for the failure to ensure the basic safety of our Children at school. That this parliament has still does not seem to have absorbed the fact that actually we still seem to carry a sense of shame associated with our existence. Because of these laws, [00:45:00] we still need to unpack that and disassociate from that shame and embrace our diversity in this country because we will all be better off for it. I want to in the final minutes that I have to address the specific provisions in this bill, Um, that the bill will create a system where men convicted, um, of indecency between males of sodomy of keeping [00:45:30] um, places of resort for homosexual activities can apply in writing to the secretary of justice to have their record expunged, um, and that families of convicted people will also be able to apply on their behalf. And I hope, through the select committee process that we'll have a chance to consider the definition of family in that sense, whether it needs to be a biological family or our sense of family to be able to apply for our [00:46:00] brothers and sisters, our brothers who may not still be with us, and I do want to acknowledge that this was not what and the petitioners were hoping for. They were hoping that there would be a proactive act action taken by the state to review all of the cases and pardon those who were eligible that it would not be reliant on, um, people [00:46:30] applying for this and that. Um, and I do want to acknowledge that, uh, we've heard, um, and the evidence from the officials was that, um, that they considered proactively identifying people with, um, convictions would be, um, probably too expensive and might be re traumatising for the people involved. For the greens, always the test of whether something is going to be re traumatising is to ask. [00:47:00] You know, I think that's really the best test, and that that would have been ideal to be able to check that out, Um, a little more thoroughly, and I'm not sure whether this has ended up on the exact right side of it, but this is a good first step. Um, and I do want to acknowledge that the minister initially said that it would be too hard to do this even because, um that these convictions were tied up with offences like child abuse and other terrible sex [00:47:30] offences. And it was great to hear from the petitioners clearly saying that is the reason to do this because our people, our family members, have been lumped in with people who committed grievous harm against others just for being themselves. And so on that note again, I say the shame does not belong with you. This is the start of more work to unpack that shame [00:48:00] for all of us. I call uh, thank you, Mr Speaker New Zealand first fully supports the motion for an apology. And I would like to thank the minister for being willing to give it on behalf of the whole parliament and also for the way in which she expressed it. New Zealand first also [00:48:30] supports the bill in its entirety. Mr. Speaker, convictions for homosexual offences, especially for those in uh except rather for those involving minors under 16 and except for those involving genuine public order offences, were based on bad law law which was contrary to natural Reason law which was contrary to natural law. They were evil laws [00:49:00] with tragic effects. For those who suffered the convictions under them, those laws and the convictions pursuant to them were and still are an utter disgrace and they were a fundamental and extreme breach of human rights. That's now, of course, confirmed under the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act and also the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and therefore [00:49:30] the apology is very well deserved and grossly overdue. But as the minister said, it's never too late to apologise. And today we are seeing that happening. But it is of course, too late to avoid the massive damage caused caused by those evil laws. And, uh, by the apology, and through this bill, we will a address, at least some of that, but certainly not all of it. So the bill itself is very welcome [00:50:00] because it enables an application for expungement, uh, through the Secretary of Justice by an eligible person not only, uh, for a living person, but also and I think this is very important by the personal representative of a deceased person. And I think that post mortem expungement is just as important. In fact, maybe even in some ways more important than those on behalf of living [00:50:30] persons. The basis of the test for expungement is the conduct constituting the offence would not constitute an offence under the law of New Zealand right now, today and I think that's the appropriate way to deal with it. I want to mention what I think are the three main values for the, um for this bill and what it achieves. And the first is this. It reconfirms the freedom for [00:51:00] people to lawfully express their sexuality and to be free from prejudice and legal sanction for doing so, it reconfirms that. Secondly, it avoids the huge disadvantage of a person suffering such a conviction from being required to disclose their convention conviction, conviction for employment purposes and other such purposes. And, uh, of course, there is the whole issue [00:51:30] of criminal history checks as well. A conviction of this kind as we know can hugely limit a person's opportunities for employment. And I think it's worth just reading out, UH, Section 95. And this is what it says. Any criminal record of the expunged conviction or the nondisclosure of any criminal record of the expunged conviction is not a [00:52:00] proper ground for a refusing the convicted person. Any appointment, post status or privilege, or B revoking any appointment, status or privilege held by the convicted person or dismissing the convicted person from any post I. I think that sums it up very well indeed. And the third of those values that I spoke of is this, and it's the most important one of all because it restores self-esteem and enhances [00:52:30] the mental health and the self-worth of the people who suffered those terrible convictions. As we all know, many suicides will have resulted from that, and I hope that Finally, we'll see to an end of that sort of tragic consequence of those evil laws. What the bill itself actually does, uh, for those who are not aware, is that if a person's application is approved under the scheme, then [00:53:00] firstly, the person's criminal record will be amended to ensure the conviction does not appear on a criminal history check for any purpose, uh, in New Zealand and secondly, the person will be entitled to declare that they have no conviction. I think that's incredibly important. It's an absolute right, and it is now in law in New Zealand when this bill passes. [00:53:30] So for all practical purposes within New Zealand, those convictions would be treated as if the person had had never been convicted at all the best possible result. Now, um, the expungement scheme will only apply to specified repealed offences, and those are listed in Section 52. Um, and the scheme will not apply of course, to people convicted of public order offences and or those [00:54:00] involving participants who are under age 16 years, and that's obviously appropriate. The secretary of justice will have responsibility for determining the applications, uh, for the expungement of the specified offences and they will do that in a very simple way on the basis of papers provided without the need for an oral hearing. Except however, that if there are expe uh, exceptional circumstances, then an oral hearing could be held. [00:54:30] But normally you wouldn't expect that an an oral hearing would be necessary. And it's good to see that that can be avoided. And it's also good to see that under Clause 13, any person who unlawfully discloses any expunge offence commits an offence and may be liable to a fine of up to $20,000 and that sort of sanction would be well deserved. And if that actually happened, So it's a very good bill, [00:55:00] um, Mr Speaker One which New Zealand first fully supports. And I want to reiterate also New Zealand first full, uh, support and appreciation for the apology made by the minister. I do hope that with the passing of this legislation, a whole chapter, a whole sad chapter of New Zealand's history can finally be put behind us and that the people who are directly affected will now [00:55:30] feel that they can get rid of that stigma and any record of the offences which they should never have been convicted of in the first place. The passing of this bill will be a proud day for this parliament and a proud day for New Zealand. And I look forward to the final reading, uh, when it eventually comes through. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I called Jono Naylor. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Uh, it's been interesting to listen to the debate as it's been going through so far [00:56:00] this afternoon. And I was thinking back to 1986. Uh, when? Uh, the law, uh, passed to actually, uh, legalise homosexual behaviour. And, uh, in in 1986. I was a Massey University student, 19 year old Massey University student who wore gum boots to lectures. Um, I don't actually recall, uh, what my views were at the time. Actually, I, I Seriously, I remember the issue going on, but I can't actually recall, uh, what my personal views [00:56:30] about it were, Although New Zealand was clearly divided, uh, at the time, Uh, the fact that I can't recall which way I thought about it obviously suggests to me that it wasn't important enough for me personally at that stage to engage with it. Um, I was happy enough to march for this against the Springbok tour. Uh, that got my blood to boil, but sadly, uh, this issue, I guess, didn't get me out of bed to to do something about it. I say that because right now I've got a [00:57:00] 19 year old son who also attends Massey University. Thankfully, he's smart enough that he doesn't wear gum boots to lectures and, uh, is a little more sophisticated than I ever was at that age. But it would be it's It's fantastic. I think that my son has grown up in a society in New Zealand where it's inconceivable to him that actually this behaviour was ever against the law. And I'm grateful that as a society, we've moved on to the point where we can actually understand, [00:57:30] Uh, that, actually this law should never have been in place in the first place. Mr. Speaker, Uh, it was a privilege to be a part of the Justice and Electoral Select Committee to hear submitters on the, uh, petition. Because, Mr Speaker, we heard some stories that would make most people's, uh, blood, uh, curdle. And it was just, uh just horrible to hear [00:58:00] of some of the things that some men were subjected to because of the laws of New Zealand. And, uh, you know, I think as a as a as a nation, we've got to sort of stand up now and say that wasn't OK. It was never OK that they should have ever have been convicted in the first place. And it definitely wasn't OK the way they were treated afterwards. Mr. Speaker, uh, there was that old LV Martin ad back in the eighties as [00:58:30] well, where he said, If something's not put right, I'll put it right because it's the putting right that matters. And, Mr Speaker, we can never, um, eliminate the experiences that those people had at the hands of the New Zealand law. We can't undo it. But, Mr Speaker, we can apologise. We can ensure that it never happens again. And we can ensure by passing this legislation that those convictions that they had uh, no [00:59:00] longer victimise them because they have to keep declaring it. Mr. Speaker, this is a good bill. It is an important apology. I commend it to the house. Uh, and while chances are I won't be here when it goes through the Justice and Electoral Select Committee. I have full confidence in the Parliament of New Zealand and this age and this time to do the right thing. And I commend this bill to the house. Uh, the the next call is a split call. [00:59:30] Mama Davidson. Five minutes. It's incredibly humbling, Mr Speaker, to be here to be able to stand and support today. It's a special day. I will start by acknowledging the petition of Jim. The petition asks that in the matter of those convicted of consensual homosexual acts prior to the Homosexual Law Reform Act 1986 their house a promptly issued an official apology to the convicted and [01:00:00] B pass legislation, which sets out a process for reversing the conviction of those convicted, both living and deceased in a manner which upholds the manner and dignity of those convicted. And that is why we are here today. I had the honour of hosting in my office today, and even he himself admits that it was not purely himself, but a whole lot of people who have campaigned and have [01:00:30] caused us to be here standing on such an important day when we return the mana to people who are just us, they're just our family. They're just our friends. They're just our elders. They're just part of our communities and our homes and our society. I want to acknowledge, in particular a young man who was murdered, uh, for being gay. Uh, when I was a young girl. [01:01:00] Um, homophobia has killed too many people and even less than killing people, it has harmed people in a way that has been traumatic for generations. Actually, I cannot stand today without thinking about a particular man who was killed who for being gay. I think about what he lost in his life. Maybe he might have chosen to be a father with a lover [01:01:30] with a husband. Maybe he might have been an amazing uncle. Maybe he might have been a grandfather who knows because he lost his life. And I send my love to his family because the person who stole his life was my family. Homosexuality, homophobia has taken too many lives, [01:02:00] and today it is an honour to put some money back into the lives that we have taken. I want to acknowledge the people in Maori who have continued to fight to return to our pre colonised notions of what sexuality homosexuality actually is. If we had all [01:02:30] as a world held on to the more inclusive notions that define you starting from your we would all be better off today if we had have all welcomed the less narrow and restricting uh, definitions of who stands with Mana. We would all be better off today. People like Doctor Leonie Ham, doctor [01:03:00] alongside so many others who are working so hard to restore those true meanings of of, of sexuality, of gender and what the definition of family is. There's a lot of healing that hopefully can can be recognised. Today is one important, [01:03:30] possibly small but one important start of the work that we all have to keep doing because the lives damaged by homophobia, the lives damaged by the legalised homophobia that that the House of Representatives upheld for one for far too long. One second of that legislation was too long and we upheld it for far longer than one second Mr Speaker, I look forward to the changes that this action and [01:04:00] many other actions of recognising that those, uh, those people are just ours, that we belong to them and they belong to us. I look forward to the work that we will continue to do together, including expunging the criminal records of people who are just our And I want to finish up by again sending my love to the family of the young man whose life was [01:04:30] taken by my uncle. We lost two men to homophobia. Thank you. Motherfucker. I call Fox five minutes. [01:05:00] Mr. Speaker, today is absolutely a historic day and should be recognised. And you can just tell some days you can just tell when you come into the house some days that it is special that we're doing something good and right and just and I feel like that today, although like, it feels a little bit ironic that while outside we were receiving a petition and letters from thousands [01:05:30] who were sexually abused in state care and we refused to apologise or hold an inquiry. Yet we do it today, but it's still right to do so. Let's celebrate the Justice and Electoral Select Committee. I want to acknowledge the collegiality of our committee. When we received, um when we received, uh the petition worked really hard. There was not one dissenting voice at any time at any time. It was never an issue that [01:06:00] we were going to get there. We just needed to find the way. And so we took it very seriously as we do most of the things in our committee because there are serious issues. We heard from submitters the abhorrent treatment, torture, isolation, beatings that were carried out by our officials after they were arrested. You know, the stigma [01:06:30] and the shame that then, uh, continued to hurt the lives of these men on and on and on and on. And no matter what we think I I it it shocked me today to find out I didn't understand that we made homophobia illegal. It shocked me to think that we did that only just in the sixties. Um, earlier in the term, I got to travel to Gisborne and [01:07:00] to see a group of young people who had, um taken, uh, had received some suicide prevention money. They called themselves Unity. They're a group of young, um, mainly Maori young people who are struggling with their own sexuality and the depression that that caused and uh, their fight to overcome their suicidal thoughts and tendencies while they struggled to understand their sexuality and to have someone find a place, [01:07:30] Have someone listen. They made a documentary. They made a documentary of the history of of, um, homophobic law reform, homosexual law reform in this country. And they documented Fran Wild's fight, the protests, the arrests, uh, the marriage equality bill. And they said, This is what this country has overcome. [01:08:00] And now we're young and we want to, uh, find our place and be accepted and told their own stories. And it was so healing for them to do that. And I felt like a bit of a proud mom having having fought for that that allowed them to do it. And so no matter what your personal feelings with, and I understand that people might have religious ideals that differ, but arresting somebody [01:08:30] for simply loving who they love is not right. And I'm so proud to be part of this government that has agreed to expunge this record and to apologise when we alleviate the stigma, then we alleviate the harm and the hurt and the pain, and people can start to heal we can't make up for the years that have been wasted coming to this point, we can't. [01:09:00] But we can help to lift the burden. And we can help to send a message to our young people of today that actually, you don't have to be ashamed. You can stand proud and you can find support. And you don't have to hide. And you don't have to worry about being arrested. And so, Mr Speaker, the Maori party absolutely support this bill, and we look forward to it coming to the Justice Electoral Select Committee so that we can ensure the passage of it, uh, is [01:09:30] well defined. And the process by which these convictions can be expunged, uh, can be done as simply as possible, though we understand it's gonna be an effort, but we're willing to give it a go. Mr. Speaker Chris Fisher. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Sir, I was born in 1983 and three years later, uh, Fran Wilde and her colleagues in that reforming fourth Labour government led the charge on homosexual law reform. [01:10:00] I have read the of that period. I have read the newspaper articles. I have talked to people who lived through that experience. I've seen the photos of the alleged 800,000 people who signed the petition on the forecourt, presenting it on the forecourt of Parliament. Against that bill, I've seen the language. It is unimaginable in 2017 to look back and think Just, uh, 30 a bit more years ago, New Zealanders could behave [01:10:30] and say those things and that the parliament, uh, could be so divided on what is fundamentally a human rights issue, how far we have come since 1986 but also sir, echoing Grant Robertson's excellent contribution in the House, how far we have still to go and today's motion and this bill is one step on that journey towards equality, respect, dignity and human [01:11:00] rights. The machinery of this law and the proposal are a bit complex, but at its core is a very simple notion. It's the parliament saying these laws should never have been the law. It's the parliament saying those laws were wrong. It's the parliament, saying to the community, Homosexual community, you should not bear the stigma [01:11:30] and the shame any longer, and we are going to put right what was wrong. So at the core of this bill is a very simple notion, a correct notion, a morally right notion. And that's why I'm so strong, so proud to support it. Allied to this bill is an apology. And I There was some debate about whether or not the parliament should do this and whether or not that motion should accompany the bill. I, I think [01:12:00] it was the right thing to do. I, I genuinely do because what's what. What the Parliament is doing is saying sorry to the men who were convicted of offences that criminalised love by two men. The parliament says sorry to the families of men who suffered trauma, despair, some [01:12:30] who even took their lives. The Parliament says sorry to the L GB ITQ community, generally for the shame and the stigma and for the persecution state sanctioned persecution. The Parliament says Sorry and I will freely admit to the house, sir, that I initially when I was confronted with this with this issue, [01:13:00] I did struggle with the notion of, uh, expungement for a couple of reasons. One is as, uh, members have averted to in their speeches the difficulty of trying to unpick and untangle uh, offences that criminalised consenting behaviour that should never have been a crime from behaviour. That should definitely be a crime. Uh, sexual abuse, uh, and and, um, and worse [01:13:30] violent offences. And the evidence from officials was that that was tricky. So that was the first issue. And secondly, I'll freely admit that I struggled with the notion, uh, of trying to rewrite history and whether we like it or not, and and I for one. And I think the parliament agrees those laws should never have been in place. They were That was the law of New Zealand up until homosexual law reform in 1987. And [01:14:00] in some ways it's It's a difficult notion. It's a difficult thing to grasp. But the history should be basically re, you know, revised so that we say that those laws were never actually in place when in fact they were. And and I struggled with that, um, as a concept. But the thing that got me to was were the people who turned up at our committee and gave [01:14:30] heartbreaking evidence and testimony that just made you wanna cry about the ongoing, uh, anger and pain and shame and suffering that they and their families have endured because of these laws. And so I decided essentially that the ongoing pain and harm that has been caused by these laws means that they should go [01:15:00] or means that we should act as if they have never. They were never in place that we need to expunge them and expunge those records from history. And the parliament has done this before. That's the other thing. This is not some. This is reasonably novel, but it's not completely novel. The parliament has done this before, and we need to do it again. Parliament has done this before in relation to, uh, a narrow niche niche class [01:15:30] of people, uh, forget the actual legislation. But it's from the early two thousands to do with, uh, war crime to do with, um military offences in the early two thousands. The Parliament has done this before and we can do it again. We can untangle the offences that genuinely should never have been crimes and those offences uh, that should and still remain crimes. But we can do that at the same time as saying to [01:16:00] homosexual community what the what was in place prior to 1987 was wrong. It was a moral. They were inhumane. And the Parliament says sorry to you for those laws. I commend this bill to the house. Um, it's my pleasure as a member of the Justice and Electoral Select Committee [01:16:30] to speak on this, the criminal records expungement of convictions for historical homosexual offences. Bill. And this is its first reading. Uh, I particularly want to start with an acknowledgement of a colleague who's no longer here. And that is Kevin Hague, who A year ago today presented the petition of dim in 2111 others. That is, uh, my colleague Davidson read out earlier, asked for [01:17:00] uh uh, uh Ask this house to promptly issue an official apology to those convicted and secondly, uh, to pass legislation which sets out a process for reversing the convictions of those convicted, both living or deceased, in a manner which upholds the manner and dignity of those convicted. Wow. So that started, uh, that process started for, uh, and all those involved in collecting those signatures in December, uh, [01:17:30] 2014, and I think we should put it into a global context. actually, uh, because in 2013 by royal pardon, Alan Turing, uh, was given a pardon for, uh, gross and decency and that gross indecency, uh, was part of the legislation, uh, that we inherited, uh, in our country, And it started a process, uh, in the UK that actually, on the [01:18:00] 31st of January this year saw more than 15,000, uh, UK men who were convicted of gross and indecency Having those offences, uh, expunged. And what that led to around the world were jurisdictions, uh, and our community in Australia and Canada and Germany all over the world actually seeking, uh, the same recourse that had been given to Alan Turing, [01:18:30] uh, given to him because of his contribution to the World War Two, uh, events. Uh, and because of his, I guess service to the country he was given a pardon. Um, when I look at the convictions in New Zealand, uh, actually, under the offences against the person act of 18 67 if you were convicted, you could spend your whole life in prison, uh, for, [01:19:00] uh, committing gross indecency. Uh, that was then altered in 18 93. Where if you were convicted of sodomy. It was punishable by life imprisonment with hard labour labour. Uh, but the interesting thing is that indecency between males also, uh, provided an opportunity for us to be flogged and whipped. And I say that because in a this year, we've had men who were flogged and whipped because they were caught [01:19:30] having sex. And so, you know, we've moved a long way to where we are today. We're in 1986. Uh, under the Homosexual Law Reform Act, we discriminated male, same sex, consensual intercourse. But what we also did, uh, was equalise the age and we made us equal, uh, to other New Zealanders, um, in highlighting, uh, Kevin's involvement in the petition with [01:20:00] I also want to, um, talk about some of the things that he talked about at the time. And he said that, um, so he was the only MP who could have been convicted who was in the house. And I acknowledge my colleague Grant Robertson, who's, um, he's too young, but he's sitting beside me now, But he said that the impact of of those, um, who were caught was massive. They lost their jobs. They lost their houses, they lost their families. A lot of them were isolated. [01:20:30] And you can imagine, uh, how that disposition then contributed to how most of them live the rest of their lives in poverty as drug alcohol addicted people, Uh, depressed people. And some of them did, uh, commit suicide. But the one thing that struck me with what Kevin shared was, um, when they were convicted, uh, the private lives were read out in a summary [01:21:00] of effects in courts and on sentence and on and on sentencing. Their names were published in the local newspaper for all to see, so they were altered. So it wasn't a private thing that happened, actually was an incredibly public thing to happen. And for a lot of them, they did. They lost their entire family community network. Which is why a lot of our fled to Australia to start a new life. [01:21:30] I also wanted to highlight, uh, where I think this bill emanated from. Because Minister Adams, when the petition was presented, uh, to the house initially stated that it could require a case by case investigation and that it could be too difficult, but what she also said was that she would wait for our justice and Electoral, uh, select committee to consider the petition before she made any decision and what I would like [01:22:00] to acknowledge. Uh, my colleague on the Justice and Electoral Select Committee, who are members of the government. So I want to acknowledge, Sarah, do our chair. I want to acknowledge Chris Bishop. I want to acknowledge Paul Foster Bell. I want to acknowledge John O'Neil, and I want to acknowledge Maureen and also Mama Fox, because you obviously kept the minister breast with what was happening before the select committee in terms of the petition. And I actually think that's what drove her and the government to [01:22:30] bring in this piece of legislation to the House. And it also says something to me about the process of this house and the value of petitions and the process that happens in select committees to, you know, to lead to an output such as a piece of legislation which is in effect going to, uh, implement everything that the petition asked for. And that is an incredibly valuable thing. And I think we should all cherish the moment [01:23:00] because it says our democracy works. You know, we've all contributed to this bill being here today on the backs of our ancestors, all those who have come before us. And so I'm going to take an opportunity because we're going to also, uh, very soon be, uh, talking about another very important piece of legislation and what I want to highlight in the oranga tamariki legislation that we're about to debate. And it's wonderful that the minister is in the house at the [01:23:30] moment is that, uh, under the Oranga tamariki legislation, we have recognised the child's right Children young person's right to their sexual orientation and gender identity. And I think that's an incredibly profound thing. And I just want to read a quote from Lord McNally talking about Alan Turing's royal pardon. And I quote the law at the time, required a prosecution. And as such, long standing policy has been accept that [01:24:00] such convictions took place. And rather than trying to alter the historical context and to put right what cannot be put right, ensure ensure instead that we never again return to those times. And so the reason I highlight that minister is because Children in care now have the right to their sexual orientation and gender identity. But what that then means for us and for the public service in the public sector [01:24:30] is that those Children who are may be intersex and may be trans. They deserve access to health services that are going to ensure that their identity is supported, that they shouldn't have to face and return two times where they are discriminated against, where they're persecuted, where actually they're invisible. And that's why, as a member of our cross party Rainbow Group, [01:25:00] we've been fighting for visibility in the education sector, which is why we've said to er, why aren't you specifically looking at the well-being of our LGBTI Q when you go to our high schools? That's why we've highlighted in the health sector. And I've got a meeting, uh, with Minister Coleman coming up that our intersex Children their health needs aren't being met, that our Trans Children, their health needs aren't being met. And so for me, that's what [01:25:30] this provides. It provides now another platform where we continue to springboard for, uh so this is never the end. I mean, for me, it's always like, you know, struggle without end because there are always discriminations, uh, in our law and in our system that needs to be addressed and rectified. So today is an incredibly special day. Uh, I also want to commend the government for the apology. [01:26:00] Uh, Anne King, uh, highlighted that we've done this previously with the Chinese community and with the Samoan community. And so it's appropriate today that we also acknowledge that our LGBTI Q, our homosexual community and a in New Zealand deserve an apology from the state. Because we we're not criminals. We never were. And we never should have been Kilda. [01:26:30] The question is that the criminal records expungement of convictions for historical homosexual offences Bill be now read a first time. Those of that opinion will say I to the contrary. No, the eyes have it. Criminal records, expungement of convictions, Historical homosexual offences Bill first reading The question now is that the bill be [01:27:00] considered by the Justice and Electoral Committee. Those of that opinion will say I to the contrary know the eyes have it. The question now is that this house apologise to those homosexual New Zealanders who were convicted for consensual adult activity and recognise the tremendous hurt and suffering. Those men and their families have gone through and the continued effects convictions [01:27:30] have had on them. Those of that opinion will say I to the contrary Opinion will say no. The eyes have it. I, uh, call on government orders of the day number three and four.

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TITLE: St Peters church service (2017)
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VOICES: Annette Cater; Bob Scott; Graham-Michoel; Neill Ballantyne
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1960s; 2010s; Anglican Church; Annette Cater; Anthony Jennings; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bob Scott; Christianity; Godfrey Wilson; Graham-Michoel; Grant Robertson; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Marton; Member of Parliament; Neill Ballantyne; Parliament buildings; Radio New Zealand National; Rainbow flag; St Peter's church; St. Paul; Thomas Merton; Wellington; a born bachelor; acceptance; accomodation; archives; blackmail; choice; church; crime; criminalisation; discrimination; eviction; exclusion; faith; family; gay; history; homosexual; homosexual law reform; law; lesbian; love; marginalisation; marginalised communities; marriage; outsider; pansy; persecution; prejudice; prison; prisoners; promiscuity; queer; radio; rainbow banner; relationships; religion; sexuality; sin; spirituality; suicide; theatre; transgender; unconditional love; victim
DATE: 25 June 2017
YEAR: 2017
LOCATION: St Peter's church, cnr Willis and Ghuznee Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: The anniversary service was held at St Peter's church in Wellington on 25 June 2017. It was led by the Reverend Annette Cater and featured Br. Graham-Michoel introducing and reading Reverend Wilson's original sermon. The service also featured Neill Ballantyne and co speaking the dialogue and Bob Scott offering prayers of the people.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Good morning, everybody. A warm, warm welcome this Sunday morning for this wonderful service, the celebration of 50th anniversary of Godfrey Wilson's groundbreaking sermon. I am Reverend Anne Cater. I am the priest in charge here at Saint Peter's Willis Street and is my utter privilege to be presiding here this morning. Um, at this point, I'd just like to introduce some of our guests who [00:00:30] I am sharing the space with this morning. It's absolutely wonderful, very packed up here. So we have the lovely Bishop Rema, who's come down from Auckland. Martin and I have someone who for some of you might find a bit familiar. It's Bob Scott. We've got him over there. Neil's going to guide him through, and it is wonderful to have you here with us this morning. Our service [00:01:00] begins on page 456 of the New Zealand Prayer book and the name of God, creator, redeemer and giver of life, Grace to you and peace from God, our creator, the love at our beginning and without end in our midst and with us. [00:01:30] Pulpits have been the place of history making since the earliest Christian times. The pulpit or pulpit to give it its proper name was the place for speaking, inherited from our Jewish origins and throughout the church. The ancient Greek beer means both platform and steps [00:02:00] and was used for a variety of secular, raised speaking platforms in both ancient Greece and Rome. And from those times to today, the central raised platform in both Jewish synagogues and in Christian churches is the place for the word, though nowadays our sermons and our addresses are often from the ambo or the lectern, whichever name you want to give it. [00:02:30] I'm rather pleased that this pulpit remains here because this, too, is a place of history making. On the 26th of June 1967 a startling sermon was preached from this platform by the then vicar, the Reverend Godfrey Wilson. It was history making because [00:03:00] it may well have been the first sermon of its kind in the country. It probably was, and certainly the first sermon of its kind to be broadcast live on national radio, and it shocked it, shocked because it used an almost forbidden word 50 years ago. Homosexuality, not an eyebrow raised today. [00:03:30] But then Godfrey was good at shocking people. What Godfrey preached was delivered in the certainty that it was and is the church's job to take the Gospel to the margins to break open God's word. That the challenge is and always will be to articulate [00:04:00] gospel principles consistently and implement them compassionately. For we must preach that human flourishing is a primary goal far more important than the protection of our institutions. Preaching is part of the paradox of worship. God works within us [00:04:30] and within worship, something that never absolves us from the responsibility of making our responses. Worship is the mutual giving and receiving of worth, for that is what the meaning of worship is worth and preaching is, or at least it should be, part of that. It is not simply a means to an end. It is not about making better informed [00:05:00] Christians. It is not just about teaching, and it is not just about ethical instruction. It is part of our worship as a whole, and thus it must be inclusive. Worship, then, is liturgical action that helps us to see the world transformed, and a sermon must be part of that. [00:05:30] There you go. Good sign of a solid pulpit. You can give it a good healthy thump now and again, just like a desk in Parliament Grant. They come from the same origins a few weeks ago, and it reminded us that the core of what is often referred to as Good Shepherd Sunday is the unmistakable message that we are all both [00:06:00] leaders and followers. Over several decades of varied ministry, I have been humbled by those who have pursued a life of faith in a church that has not always welcomed or valued them for their worth. The gay and lesbian and intersex members of our Church, of the Church as a whole and as one of the sheep, I have been constantly [00:06:30] reminded that we need to hear their voices time and again and take seriously their experiences. They show us continually show us a valuable expression of mercy in CA. In calling the church to be more inclusive, more Christlike, despite being given so many reasons to walk away. [00:07:00] So very sadly, so many have done just that and walked away. It was once said of Godfrey Wilson, following one of his numerous controversial sermons. He bleats like a sheep, and I hope that he heard that that he took it as a compliment. 50 years on. It is an [00:07:30] immense honour and privilege to repeat Godfrey's sermon and to reflect on the pastoral leadership of one who was so often thought of as a black sheep in the bigger flock, the church. And so to that sermon, Godfrey's text was from the epistle of John from both Chapter three and four [00:08:00] Little Children. Let us love not in word or in speech, but indeed. And in truth, if anyone says, I love God and hates his brother, he is a liar for he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen cannot love God, who he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him that he who loves [00:08:30] God should love his brother, also love people, times without number. He's pondered the use and the abuse of that familiar and ambiguous word, and now the prison chaplain has used it, sitting there in his office, listening to John's story. John has been three weeks in prison. Perhaps [00:09:00] the three blackest weeks of a life already overburdened with shadow put him in a group of other men of say, around 30. You would see nothing to mark him as different. He is able, intelligent and well thought of in the bank where he once worked. But he is different. John is a homosexual. It is his own sex that he is attracted to. [00:09:30] And it is with men that he seeks to make those loving relationships on which any full life as a person depends. I don't know. When John first realised he was different, his mother, to whom he was very close, had sometimes commented on the lack of interest in girls. But that was earlier. He was a born bachelor, he said, not wanting to hurt, and in time [00:10:00] she recognised and accepted. When he left home to work in Wellington, he was trying hard to come to terms with his condition. He led quite a full social life and made friends, particularly in the amateur drama group that he joined. But he kept telling himself, This is as far as I can go. Just friends he knew only too well what society thinks of homosexuals. [00:10:30] After all, didn't he read the newspapers and hadn't he overheard the land lady telling her friends with some disgust that she thought she had a queer among the borders. It was like background radiation, the attitudes, the things you read and heard. John tried, but he only seemed to become more and more aware of something vital, lacking of a growing emptiness [00:11:00] at the centre of his life. He wanted to give himself to love and to be loved. But how could he? The way he was? Well, John did fall in love with a young man. He met on a night in a coffee bar and got talking to him. Colin was his name. They clicked, as we say of men and women who fall in love, and after some months of courtship, they moved into a flat [00:11:30] together. John took these steps in fear and trembling. It wasn't altogether satisfactory. There were tensions, quarrels, sometimes jealousy over friends, as in other human relationships. But there was also love, genuine care for each other and a fulfilling experience of faith in life. In partnership, [00:12:00] John couldn't imagine the return to his solitary. They had been together for nearly a year when their landlord gave them notice. Apparently another tenant had complained to him about having queers for neighbours and about the pack of pansies who came around visiting. He was sorry, but he didn't want to upset his fellow tenants. There was no use making a fuss [00:12:30] after all, as far as they were concerned, he had the whip hand. John and Colin quarrelled over the upheaval, and the relationship ended on a sour note. To cut a long story short, John went back to his solitary boarding house existence, but now he was getting bitter. He felt more deprived and frustrated than before. [00:13:00] And it was this coupled with the desperate desire to regain something of what he had lost, that drove him from one casual relationship to another and finally into the arms of the law. He got probation for the first offence, but the second time it was 12 months imprisonment. What's the use? John said to the chaplain. [00:13:30] I've tried to fit in. I've tried to live my life and find happiness like everyone else. I didn't ask to be homosexual. I didn't choose to be different. And yet you've made me an outsider, a criminal, a greater threat to society, apparently, than the adulterer who breaks up a home or the man who gets a girl pregnant and leaves her holding the baby [00:14:00] and look. If you fall in love and marry, that's fine. But if I fall in love and want to share it, that's perversion and must be persecuted and punished. Do you wonder that I've thought of suicide? What, then is there for me? Who cares about me? Yes, who cares? [00:14:30] Well, I'm glad I'm not that chaplain. I wouldn't know what to say to someone in John's position. I mean, hearing about John, I suddenly realised how easy it would be to take for granted the love and affection and care and friendship that I enjoy. I'd better try imagining how I'd feel if people whispered behind my back every time I took a girlfriend home. Or even worse, if I'd been evicted because of what other tenants [00:15:00] said when I tried to settle down with my wife. More reason than for for helping men like John just to see what they lack to see that God intended human nature to find fulfilment in marriage and the raising of a family. Yeah, but but not everyone gets married, but some choose not to look for various good reasons, and sheer force of circumstances prevents others. Mm. And what's this force of circumstances that prevented [00:15:30] John from getting married? He simply wasn't born the way so much of society still treats us normal. Whatever that means. A born bachelor? Is that what you mean? That's what he told his mother, you remember? But they both knew it wasn't true. Even if that's what they would have liked to have. Now, Now, you know as well as I do that our sexual tendencies become fairly set at an age when we are too young to have much influence on what happens. John [00:16:00] could no more have prevented his sexual outlook than you could. Yours or I could be, No matter how rich you're objectively speaking, yours might be. Ah, So you do agree that it's better not to be a homosexual. You're missing the point. You're missing the point. You're You're still assuming that John had some choice in his sexuality when in fact, he didn't look, Surely you must have had some. Well, you ask yourself. Did you choose your sexual [00:16:30] outlook? Did you well put it like that? I suppose a person can't help being born left handed, but the scripture tells us that it might be at the worst. Unhealthy. Is it a sin if a person grows up with a different kind of sexual personality? We know it's not a sin to be left handed. So why should a homosexual be a be a sin? Mm. I must admit, I never thought of quite [00:17:00] like that before. I suppose what you mean is that it's not sinful to feel affection for one's own sex. Oh, everyone does that up to a point. I suppose it's a sexual behaviour which results from letting these impulses run away with you. That's the really the sinful thing. I guess you could say that. And of course, in the same in the case of heterosexuals, right, it's those who abuse their gift of sexuality. Who sin? Yes, [00:17:30] I see that clearly enough. But there is another side to the picture. Hm. Surely the rest of the community has the right to ensure that this sort of behaviour doesn't get out of hand. Isn't it just as much for their own good as let some restraint just put on them. But can the community really restrain them? Well, there is the law. And if you break that you must be. But by condemning [00:18:00] him, the community hasn't solved his problem. In fact, it's made it worse right. In the end, the community's worst fears will be confirmed, and this will be taken as conclusive proof that prison is the only place for him. It's that old excuse for ignoring the problem. Oh, thank God we've moved on from that theory. Wow. But we've got to keep coming back to the same fundamental problem. Saint Paul [00:18:30] denounces homosexual sin. But haven't we learned a great deal about sex since those days? Paul and the Old Testament writers had the mistaken idea, which we've already been into. That homosexual choose what it is to be. It doesn't help me to see what John's supposed sin is. Now you're making unnecessary difficulties. I thought we'd already agreed that his [00:19:00] sin was his abuse of God's gift of sexuality. No, not at all. John is a homosexual. Take his relationship with Colin, But was he abusing his gift of sexuality and therefore sinning? I'm I'm sorry, II. I don't quite follow it. Well, is it like this? Much of Christianity continues to condemn homosexuality, for it represents the denial of what is the good life. Saint Paul, for instance, talks about deeds [00:19:30] prompted by love. And although it's an old fashioned word, it does at least help us what he, uh, think about what he thought sexual sin is. And he says, it's a lack of respect for yourself or for other people and sexual relations. It's a sort of disrespect or abuse that leads to deliberately establishing a sexual relationship simply for what you can get out of it. You know as well as I do that we have. If we have that sort of attitude to sex, then it's not long [00:20:00] before the whole meaning gets destroyed. Sex is part of a creative relationship in which two people can exchange, exchange, love, affection in which they share a common life and common interests and responsibilities. Outside of this commitment, sex becomes a destructive force. You get tension, jealousy, instability and decay. Yes, but isn't this a different situation where one kind of marriage and having Children isn't a possibility [00:20:30] simply because the couple are homosexual and yet their love is genuine? They are committed to each other and they want to make a life together. Is it really necessarily sinful for sex to come into this Well, if you put it like that, but why I'm not so sure. But go on. I feel John has been made a victim of his sexuality. He is aware of his outlook, but he's told it's not a gift but a curse. He's [00:21:00] aware of its potentiality for good and for bad, perhaps more aware in a way than we who take our sexual gifts for granted. But he is told that however he expresses them, he is sinning. He wants to use his gifts in a creative way, but he has warned that he must inevitably destroy. He wants us to share an ordinary give and take of love and affection. He wants to have this sort of relationship with another person, without which all but the exceptional few find [00:21:30] life dull and empty. But he is told to repress his evil urges, just like you and me. He finds it perfectly natural to want to fulfil the physical side of his nature, not for what he can get out of it, but for what he can give into it. But he is told that this is condemned Now. I don't find any destructive work at force at work. In this particular case, I see no exploitation, [00:22:00] no denial of personal worth, only the needs and limitation of a human being trying to find fulfilment in ways that will be rewarding and enriching. But if you believe this, then it's impossible for us to say whether John is sinning or not. You would need to know so many things about his personal, his inner life to be at all. And why should we? Why should we decide that question? Is it our place to delve into anyone's personal life? Surely [00:22:30] only God sees the heart and the soul, and it is in a position to weigh up a person's worth. Hm? I am beginning to see what you mean. You mean we've all sinned in some way or another, haven't we? And if we don't constantly remind ourselves of this basic fact about human nature, we're in grave danger of putting ourselves in God's place. Now. What it amounts to is this that it's not our place to judge and condemn exactly. [00:23:00] But it's something so much more positive than that. For me. The whole meaning of Christianity boils down to God's concern for all people, no matter who they are or what they have done. We are all made in God's image. God accepts us all, not just in word and his speech, as the reading put it, but indeed, and in truth, God got so deeply involved with us that he even became one of us and died for us and all this so that we could [00:23:30] stop merely existing and begin living life to the full acceptance is the key word, and you can't accept unless you love, love, Christian love the sort of love God has for us and to offer us. It isn't a transient feeling we enjoy while it lasts, but a demand to accept all people as God accepts them with no reservation, unconditional love. It's the idea that rigid black and [00:24:00] white distinctions are possible that I want to reject. Isn't that the lesson we learned from John's story? We know that times have changed dramatically in half a century. We know that 30 years ago there was a law reform that decriminalised homosexuality. Sadly, an act of parliament doesn't change everybody's minds or [00:24:30] lives. The legacy of Godfrey's sermon is a reminder that we still have a long way to go in caring for the marginalised of our society. Sure, we don't lock people up anymore, and we don't necessarily reject certain lifestyles we might decide are unhealthy before we inquire of our own minds. What would be the reaction of Jesus? [00:25:00] But that is where we have to start the reaction of Jesus not in the court of Parliament. Through that secu, though, that secu route may sometimes be a help. But here, at the heart of the Christian family, God's house is where we start and in private conversations with God in our prayer life, no matter who we are, [00:25:30] unconditional means exactly that it means unconditional. The infinite value of human life is to be both Touchstone and foundation for determining the morality of a given act or issue. Christian morality should be more concerned with the well being and the dignity of each [00:26:00] and every person than with the rules, norms or canonical commandments. That is the teaching of Jesus. I cannot deny the faithful scholarship of Bible loving, truth seeking Jesus loving and unbiased scholars who find no other alternative but to conclude [00:26:30] that the Bible is actually affirming of LGBT Q I and all the rest people I cannot condemn where there is certain certainty but an undeniable history of wrongful judging, disapproving and damning things later proven to be benign. Even Duba. I am learning never to trust [00:27:00] a conservative church that demands I love conditionally. Surely it should be the desire of us all to live life beyond condemning, discriminating and sin labelling mantras of any church that crucifies first and consults Jesus. Later, I leave you with these few words [00:27:30] of blessed Thomas Merton. The whole idea of compassion is based on a keen awareness of the interdependence of all living beings, which are all part of one another and all involved in one another. Oh man, caring God. [00:28:00] We thank you for your gifts in creation for our world. So for our land, its beauty and its resources, we pray for those who make decisions about the resources of the Earth, possibly for those who work on land and sea, in city and in industry. [00:28:30] For artists, scientists and visionaries, the creation curator God will lay before you the last 50 years of slowly moving understanding of the love relationships [00:29:00] between those who are accepted and those who are not. We give thanks to you for the witness of Godfrey and Mary Rose their ministry in this place, we give thanks for those during the last 50 years who've ploughed through the intolerable conferences, [00:29:30] commissions, reflections for 30 years and still not reached a common decision. We pray for your forgiveness of this institution in that matter. [00:30:00] We remember the thousands of people whom the church ignored sometimes hastened the time when people committed suicide because they felt lost and un cared for. We pray for the families [00:30:30] of those people whose agony continued for years and years. And so now we pray clearly that our church, in its meetings and its reflections at the local level, may see new light may see new energy [00:31:00] may claim some joy in our determination for joy and for love. Our prayer is that in the next few years we we may continue to march forward seeking new truths, new commitment in the name of love. [00:31:30] Instead of waiting for yet another commission, we ask this in the name of Jesus who taught us how to love. I mean, I no [00:32:00] [00:32:30] yeah, [00:33:00] [00:33:30] [00:34:00] [00:34:30] most loving god creator and redeemer We give you thanks for this foretaste of your glory through Christ and with all your saints, we offer ourselves and our [00:35:00] lives to your service. Send us out in the power of your spirit to stand with you in your world. We ask this through Jesus Christ, the servant, our friend and brother. Amen. Um, I'm going to take liberties. Uh, one of the things we'd like to do today is bless our beautiful rainbow banner. Um, you can see it draping artistically in the corner over there. Um, it was [00:35:30] created for a gathering spiritual gathering last year. Um, and we would like to take today as an opportunity to bless it. Um, and because of the nature of today's celebration, I wanted I couldn't help myself. I had to be part of it, too. So you'll see. There's a bit of a rainbow banner on the lick. Turn over there with a cross on it. My parents were members of this congregation 50 years ago, and Godfrey Wilson was their vicar, and they were married here in 1969 by [00:36:00] Godfrey and my mother. One of the things that she has given me is She's a person who makes vests for clergy and priests and deacons around the country. And as a result, she's got a lot of fabric. Um, So I said to her, What I'd like to do is create a banner to remember and recognise this 50th anniversary. So all the fabric from that banner as pieces that was set aside for investments for clergy in this country. [00:36:30] And I thought more than appropriate that we use that for our banner here today. So I get to, um, have a little bit of something here, um, and weave my story further to the wonderful story and legacy of this parish and all that it stands for and all that. I hope that it stands for in the future. Yeah, Alright. So in that spirit, [00:37:00] for all those rainbow banners and and flags that we have in this vicinity right now, um, we know that in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in it. And God said, it is good, all of it. And so in that spirit, may these banners be a symbol of that all encompassing, generous, amazing, unending love for all that all [00:37:30] who see it may be overwhelmed by the power of that love and know God, that you are a god of love. And we bless these banners. In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen. I'm going to hand over to Bishop to give the blessing God to be with you. Oh, [00:38:00] and always angels watch you Oh, God. The and spirit and keep you peace. Peace be with you and air Go [00:38:30] rejoicing on. Mm, yeah.

IRN: 1120
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/service_for_virginia_burns.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004485
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089779
TITLE: Service for Virginia Burns
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Arthur Grooby; Ben Mills; David Birrell; Elizabeth Kerekere; Greig Wilson; Herwig Raubal; Penny Salmon; Rebecca Elizabeth Taylor; Ruth Mundy; Shelley Te Waiariki Howard; Sian Torrington; Vaughan Meneses
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Adele; Alex Efimoff; Aotearoa New Zealand; Arthur Grooby; Asia Pacific Outgames; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Ben Mills; Conrad Johnston; David Birrell; David Harkins; Elizabeth Kerekere; Fabulunch; Fleetwood Mac; France; George Michael; Greig Wilson; HIV / AIDS; Henare Mahanga; Herwig Raubal; Hirini Melbourne; Inland Revenue Department; Ireland; Jac Lynch; Judi Burns; Maya Angelou; Michael O'Connor; Naming New Zealand; Netherlands; Old St Paul's; Out Wellington Inc.; Out in the Park (Wellington); Out in the Square (Wellington); Out in the carPark (Wellington); Outerspaces (Wellington); Penny Salmon; Pereana Pitman; Rebecca Elizabeth Taylor; Roxy Coervers; Ruth Mundy; Sandra Dickson; School's Out (Wellington); Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar; She Is Gone (poem); Shelley Te Waiariki Howard; Sian Torrington; Southern Cross Garden Bar; Stevie Nicks; Students Against Dangerous Driving (SADD); Te Reo Māori; The Dixie Chicks; This is a Femme Slam (poem); Topp Twins; Tranzform (Wellington); Tyrone Russell; United States of America; Upper Hutt; Vaughan Meneses; Virginia Parker-Bowles; Wellington; Wellington Binder Exchange; biphobia; bowls; butch femme; cancer; children; civil unions; clothing; coming out; community; community support; drama; employment; environment; facebook. com; family; femininity; femme queen; friends; gay; growing up; homophobia; human rights; humour; karakia; legacy; lesbian; love; masculinity; music; poetry; pridenz. com; queer; slam poetry; sleeveless dress; solar energy; sport; tax; trans; transphobia; values; visibility; vox pop; waiata; whānau; women; youth; youth group
DATE: 23 June 2017
YEAR: 2017
LOCATION: Old St Paul's, 34 Mulgrave Street, Pipitea, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: [00:00:30] welcome to all of you. From across our diverse fabulousness. I see that the Wellington rain has not dampened. Uh, the rainbow Glen. My name is Elizabeth, and it is my great honour to open our ceremony today as our joy and remembrance of Virginia's life weaves through our denial and grief [00:01:00] at her loss. So we acknowledge the interconnectedness of all things in the universe. We greet our earth Mother, Papa, all of the goddesses, all of the spiritual and magical beings and whose world we're privileged to live. We acknowledge the of this area. Where and Jack have created their life. Together we pay tribute to this sacred space and all of those that have born witness [00:01:30] to the celebration and tears of our our families and our communities. And we remember those who have passed to the burns ancestors who have come all the way from Northern Ireland to celebrate the descendant. I don't know what all those Protestants will be thinking about being in this Anglican church, but we thank you. We thank all of those ancestors for the power. [00:02:00] That is the the that we honour here today. We have come together today to celebrate and honour the life of Virginia Burns to remember her and make our farewells. We're drawn here by the love and respect of a truly amazing person. My name is David Burrell, and it's my honour to be your guide through the service today we're joined by Virginia's [00:02:30] parents, Judy and Harry Burns, her sister Emma, and members of her family. We're also thinking of her grandmother, Hazel, who was unable to travel for the service today but is in our thoughts. We're also joined by the junior's partner, Jack Lynch, her family and friends. Some of you may not know that Jack and had a civil union at their home last week. Um, Jack described it as the most romantic moment of her life. [00:03:00] Then there's these wider family, that's all of you. They felt very strongly that she was part of a huge extended family, and that's why we all gather here today to celebrate her life. I have a set of things that we need to work through to all the friends who have supported Virginia and Jack during the seven years together, and those who stepped in to help [00:03:30] Virginia during her four years of treatment, especially her chemo club. Thanks to the group of lovelies who have helped pull the service together and keep Jack and Food Company and good humour, I also want to thank Eva Beaver Bar for the Amazing Tribute held last Sunday. This was an amazing event that the community held for V. Although V and Jack couldn't be there in person. [00:04:00] I also want to thank Mark Holland and her helpers who have created a work of art on on these casket. It is truly beautiful. And now, for the safety messages, I know they would want us all to be safe. And we are in Wellington. So if there's an earthquake, drop cover and hold on, it goes without saying that this is a non-smoking service. [00:04:30] This building has three safety exits one behind and one either side. This is also a really good time to just check your phones to make sure they're off. Um, the service is being recorded and will be made available on pride NZ dot com. Can I ask that you all stand and join in the singing of [00:05:00] Yeah, really hard. [00:05:30] He he [00:06:00] see [00:06:30] he he Yeah, I Yeah, [00:07:00] really. You can see thank you. Please be seated. Today. We will not be having a formal eulogy. Instead, [00:07:30] we're gonna have tributes from friends and family that will paint a picture of the and the life that she had with us. The first of these will be read by Vaughan on behalf of these parents and family. This will be followed by Greg, Penny and Arthur. I'm [00:08:00] honoured to be asked to read today and to speak of a few words on behalf of Judy who's V's mum. But before I read Judy's words, I'd like to say a few words about the relationship I had with the and I know that many of us have this this kind of connection with her in life. There are often only one or two people you can talk to about anything and everything. And was that person for me? Our relationship mostly centred on numerous [00:08:30] conversations over lemon and ginger tea or coffee. With a few outings and community gatherings on the fringes, I would send her a one word text with coffee, and she would find a reason to escape the IRD and we we we'd meet downstairs at Mojo and on a fine day we'd sit on the grass outside the railway station and we'd talk one day. Not long after her first round of treatment, I meet her for lunch at where I was supposed to. Eventually, she swanned in, crowned [00:09:00] with her latest Beanie and with a bright smile on her face, said, Sorry I'm late. I've got cancer, I replied. Hard enough. I've got AIDS and I still need it on time. And then we pissed ourselves laughing and carried on with our conversations. When we got together, we we talked of life, the universe and everything from business and money, things like whether to buy one apartment or two or whether or not to invest in [00:09:30] butlers. And we'd done talked through art and science, the stupidity of trump, the absurdity of Colin Craig and the general fabulous of queers. We talked about tax policy, the rights of trans people and how go set a watchman impacted on our impressions of To Kill a Mockingbird. We also discuss deeply personal things, like our relationships and breakups. We talked about our fears [00:10:00] and our vulnerabilities. We gave each other advice, tried ideas on for size and provided a different perspective we could disagree, but no matter what, we were always on each other's side like so many of us. I trusted, admired and loved her because she was really easy to love. I know many of us had similar kinds of conversations with me, and the day always [00:10:30] went better afterwards than it was before. It was her superpower, really. It takes a village to raise a child, and I'd like to thank her family's whole village for bringing this amazing human into our world. All of us here today know that they didn't just help us raise us up as people. She helped raise our village, and [00:11:00] now I'm going to read some words from Bee's mum, Judy, about her reflections and memories from Bee's childhood. She was quite a bossy child. At 2. 5 years, she was going up mom's back steps along with Robert, who was 20 months her cousin and pushed them off into the cactus that grew there. And Jennifer had to lay him down and pick out the prickles from his bum, one by one, with him going at each extraction. She loved hanging up on our fence with her thumb in her mouth, [00:11:30] advising the neighbours the best, the best way she should discipline. Her son, Ginny Rose was only 3. 5 at the time, and he was two. She went to a birthday party when she was about five, and they had a running race. But Virginia ran around a trailer, and instead of coming directly back, so they came in last. She hated walking, would have gone to school in a year if she had had the chance. And we wore out five of them before she got to school. She even walked with the disabled kids at high school. So she got out of the cross country running. [00:12:00] She was involved with AD, which is students against drunk driving and pity your sister didn't take after in that regard. When Gemma started yelling in the night when she was 10 months old, Virginia said to me, You said this was going to be a good thing for all of us. Mom and Gemma continued to scream the place down. For the next 15 months, she wore in striped PJS with braces to hold them up at school when she was in the seventh form. As that was the latest thing for her. I made her a lovely black [00:12:30] velvet halted neck long dress for a ball gown. She looked beautiful, but she never wore it again. Bought a new one The next year, she thought I could just put a bit of material around her and make something without a pattern, as if she were a Barbie doll, and I was expected to make the dress she wanted. She had a Cabbage Patch doll, which she carried everywhere when she was about seven, and it's still on the shelf in her room, along with others of her dolls. Although Layla now plays with her Barbies, she stayed with us until she was 19 and then into a flat in town while she was at drama school, [00:13:00] getting an LTCL and drama and from there to uni in Wellington, living in a real dive in Glen Road in Calvin, with water streaming down the bathroom walls. Unbelievable. But she was happy there and took us to see the glow worms on the bank at night on the Botanic Gardens. And when I said she was lucky to get a job at Jackie, she replied. They are very lucky to have me work for them, and that was her attitude to life. The Invincible Miss Burns At six. She was very [00:13:30] much loved, the first grandchild, and it is terrible to think she didn't make it love Judy. Good morning. Firstly, it's a great privilege to have the opportunity to speak today at the send off, V has tirelessly worked on so many community projects and events over many years. Too many to list. Sunday's event to V with Love is [00:14:00] probably the only event she did not organise herself, although she did have a hand in making it a fundraiser for Outer spaces. That's a group supporting queer and trans youth and a fundraiser. It was out, and also out. Wellington, who run out in the park, actually pledged $500 just two nights ago to bring the total funds raised in V's name to over 3. 5 $1000. Pretty ace, a V. [00:14:30] The sense of community spirit together in that room on Sunday was glam. It was a true testament to of the appreciation from the community for the for her endless hours of meetings and community work, her tireless energy and massive thanks to our amazing team, Roxy and crew for organising it all awesome. V was heavily involved in out in the park for a number of years chair co-chair, community liaison, marketing [00:15:00] and every other role you could possibly imagine either on the board or working behind the scenes. But she would say her role was making shit happen. I'm not sure if you can say that in the church, but just dead. V has a a sense of calmness that no one else I have ever met can replicate. V was [00:15:30] the calming voice at the meetings when everyone was pulling their hair out days before the big event, and we didn't have a health and safety plan for the City Council, and the whole thing might not happen. But then V just sorts it all out and everything works out perfectly. Even when we was going through her first round of treatment, she still never missed a board meeting. She would just rock up with a smile on her face and always look for the good and everything, and we learned a lot from Virginia. One of these great qualities [00:16:00] was acceptance of people and differences in fact, V embraced differences and was a true champion for diversity, a rich quality in a human being. It was these innate qualities that drove her passion and the many community projects she immersed herself in over the years. Thanks must go to Jack for letting us have so much of V's time for these projects and a rock solid support of [00:16:30] V and her various community projects. One of the great qualities that I loved about V was her ability to see the big picture. If she had a USB in the side of her head, she could have just plugged in a printer, and it would. And it would print out an image of her master plan full colour HD that with the picture set in her head, she would get to work and she would rally [00:17:00] people. She would attend endless meetings, late night phone calls and do what it took to make it happen. One of those printouts would turn out to be the Asia Pacific Out games. She was co-chair in 2012. I think it was hosting over 1300 sports people in uh, the the the Gay Games here in Wellington and ambitious event that set a blueprint for the future Asia Asia Pacific Out games in the future. [00:17:30] I first met when she was co-chair of the out games, and she was on the hunt for some sponsorship cash. I always remember, um, meeting her, and she was wearing a fabulous bright green jacket, ubi cool, oversized sunglasses and a little beanie. I thought, Wow, high fashion, lesbian. [00:18:00] One of her other great qualities was her sense of humour. This operated like a well oiled machine, and it was available on demand even with her cancer. And she told me just five weeks ago that her cancer was now palliative care. She just shrugged her shoulders and said, Yeah, it's a bit shit. I've seen it twice Now these legacy will continue in the community events she was instrumental in growing [00:18:30] and her final words on Sunday, she encouraged members of our community to get involved in making big, shiny LGBT Q I star events happen. By the way. The out Wellington a GM is Tuesday night next week, and there's an opportunity right there. If you're thinking about getting involved in your community, I know we would have loved this little shout out V, you will be greatly missed around the board tables, coffee tables and dinner [00:19:00] tables. You inspired us. You taught us you made us laugh. You made us feel good. The world is a better place because of you. Everyone They used to come to work every day with a cherry Morina every day, no matter what. I'm penny from the Inland Revenue and [00:19:30] I were researchers together at IRD and she was my best friend at work. We, um, had lots of coffees as well, and, um, talked about much the same things. And it's a wonder that she even got work done given that we were always having coffee with her. So, um, but given all that, she was amazing at her job. And we all miss her so much. I feel so humbled and honoured to talk [00:20:00] about today. And I asked the team and others who have worked with V to share some things that they loved about her. And like the good researchers that we both are, I've seen them up into a list of a few words firstly that describe V at work warmth, passion, encouragement, stylish strong values, loved her job. Butler's [00:20:30] chocolate at team meetings. Kind, thoughtful, ambitious, inspiring, brilliant, bright, collaborative, inclusive, hugely missed and hashtag red. Who knows what a vox pop is? Well, researchers at Inland Revenue know, and I think that's pretty impressive. Given we've got an average age of about 50 in our team, it means voice of the people. And [00:21:00] it's a poll, um, asking a question and giving a range of options, and they convinced me to help her with this. She does that. It's a strength of hers, inviting others to bring her along a new plans to improve the world. Her red ideas. She used things like Fox Pops to bring people together. We started it out as a simple voting for our favourite spread on toast and moved [00:21:30] into one of my faves, which was Today is so awesome yesterday as well jelly and with very big responses like Totes And it better be. And in the end, it was developed in a way to build a positive team culture, about studying from youth, engaging how people felt about organisational change coming up in the future, and I loved working with their own with UV, [00:22:00] and it really did help build a better culture in our team. And it's just but one example of the amazing work you did strong values. You are steadfast in your values. You made people stick to this, made us accountable and be our best Selves. Always you are unforgiving. If someone failed you in living theirs, you supported colleagues to support their family members with LGBTI Q plus challenges. [00:22:30] I'm gonna miss you so much be in the lost opportunities for our friendship. There is so much I didn't know about you and I honestly thought I was gonna have a lifetime of friendship to get to know all of you. I was looking forward to the amazing role model that she would be to my own Children. Especially Grace, who puts boy characters in new stories who have boyfriends and describe and describe drag queens taking over social media? Yep. [00:23:00] And we get to see people like Lasha. Saint Redfern read adorable stories about penguins with two dads at the library in events like Sunday, which is not bad for a straight white family from so instead be your influence will be in honour of my memory of you because you made me a better parent friend in person. You left all our worlds better to finish. There's [00:23:30] some especially lovely quotes from your work friends, starting with Grahams, Graham said she understood me better than anyone else or even myself. From time is not measured by the years we lived, but the number of deeds we do and the joy we give from Peter, I can only say what I'm sure lots of others would say was how amazing he was to have in the team. As a person, she was so [00:24:00] kind and thoughtful and as a colleague, inspiring totally brilliant person. I miss her heaps from Paul Weaver, passionate about what was right and would not accept what wasn't the support and encouragement she gave others was brilliant from our manager, Helen hard to find the right words for what they meant to us. I will remember her great energy, warmth and enthusiasm and love of her job. She lit up [00:24:30] the room, and from her manager, Paul, it's so hard to put you in a sentence for you were so much to so many people. I'll remember you as someone full of life and ambition for what can be always willing to push the boundaries. You challenged us to think so differently about our work in the communities and people we work for. You gave so much and had so much yet to give. And finally a beautiful poem written by her colleague [00:25:00] and friend Mike O'Connor. It's called Hashtag genius. Sweet, sweet Virginia Plain and simply You rocked You will always be on my mind. All my memories gather around here. Modest lady stranger to blue water dark and dusty painted on the sky, Misty taste of moonshine teardrop in my eye. See it out west sometime. [00:25:30] My name is Arthur, and I'm one of a group of friends of these that called ourselves the Woollies made up of Virginia Tyrone, Ellen Gordon Roger myself [00:26:00] and I've got the privilege of speaking for the group. We were just a small group of gay friends from different backgrounds, but with lots in common life and circumstance just threw us together and we made the most of it. We talked up large. We partied, we observed, we supported each other. We questioned and challenged each other, and we had the most fabulous time together. Both here in New Zealand and abroad, [00:26:30] and we always came back together. Asking for more Virginia was, is and will continue to be a part of that tight woollies union. Jack's kindly referred to the wolf in one of her Facebook posts in the in the last week as a group of smart, gregarious gay men that Virginia regarded as their gay brothers. Well, Jack, that's a very generous description. Firstly, I consider myself to be the [00:27:00] least gregarious of the bunch. And to be honest, I'm not quite sure what gregarious means I should have. I guess I should have Googled it before I came, so that makes me a bit low in the smart stakes as well. But what I do know is that we all adore, and we continue to adore our beautiful friend. You know, I've heard a lot of people talking about the legacy that Virginia leaves and what a legacy it is. We here [00:27:30] are all testament to that, a legacy of what she's done for the community, for people she cared for and how she helped to shape the way we act we give and how we think. Well, it's made me think about our power to create a legacy. One of my favourite poets, Maya Angelo, once said, Your legacy is every life you have touched. I'll say that again. Your legacy [00:28:00] is every life you have touched. And Virginia touched us all through her dignity, her self determination, her grace and beauty, her smile and her love. And it showed me a very simple truth. Feel everything you love, because every moment you are building your legacy, believe in yourself. Back yourself to win. Go out there and make [00:28:30] a difference and be you, Virginia. You did. And you have. It's something that I'll always remember about you. It makes me smile and makes us all stronger. Thank you. Love you. Thank you. Vaughan, [00:29:00] Greg, Penny and Arthur, Um, for our next set of tributes, we're going to have Rebecca followed by her work. And Sean, I'd just like to, uh, read a short poem. Um, it's called. She is Gone by David Harkins. You can shed tears that she is gone or you can smile because she has lived. [00:29:30] You can close your eyes and pray that she will come back Or you can open your eyes and see all she has left your heart can be empty because you can't see her or you can be full of the love you shared. You can turn your back on tomorrow and live yesterday. Or you can be happy for tomorrow because of yesterday you can remember her [00:30:00] and only that she's gone. Or you can cherish her memory and let it live on You can cry and close your mind, Be empty and turn your back or you can do what she would want. Smile. Open your eyes, love and go on. Um, my name's Herwig, and I'm a friend of Virginia's. Um, I first [00:30:30] met Virginia in 2005. She'd moved into, um, 100 and 85 Victoria Street. I lived in an apartment, uh, two floors above her. I'd see her in the hallways and in the in the lifts without actually knowing her. But it was obvious what a a special person she was. She'd always greet you. Very. Um, there was a big friendly hi and a big smile on her face. There was a She was clearly Well, you know, a stylish lady. She was very, um, always well dressed. She has fantastic coats. Um you know, the big glasses [00:31:00] there was always, um some there was something about her. Without even knowing her. I knew she was special. Um, shortly after moving in, she joined the body Corporate Committee, of which I was chair. It's fair to say we had some work to do in the in the building and, um, basically virgin. I ran it, Um, she she was fantastic. I think about the jobs that she used to do. So, um, in, um, we had on the fourth floor outside, there was some graffiti there. So Verge [00:31:30] decided she was gonna get a cherry picker, and she was gonna paint it out. So she did do that. She got, um she blocked off some parking spaces outside the building. She hired a cherry picker. She taught herself how to drive the damn thing. And then, um, breaking about 20 health and safety laws. She went up there and she painted it out. And actually, that plate paint's still there. Um, by the way, the apartments we had were very nice apartments, but the lobby on the ground floor was pretty crap. And she decided [00:32:00] that she was going to turn it into something that was gave a better first impression to people who were visiting us. So she came to me and said, um, is it OK if I spend some body corporate money on some paint? Um, I'll do all the work. Sure. Off you go. So she bought some paint. Um, and at three o'clock in the morning on a Saturday morning now most people would dress up in overalls and stuff for that kind of work. But but not Virginia. She was dressed as she always was, spectacularly. [00:32:30] Um, but she had a great big plastic thing over her like some oversized condom, and she painted it away. And actually, there was a guy who lived above me who was a, um a bit of a problem in the building, to be honest. And we worked out why it was a bit of a problem, because he came home completely stoned while she was doing it. And so he he she got into a conversation with him about, um perhaps he should lift his game while she was painting this thing in an oversized condom. It's amazing. She was a visionary. Um, so she wanted our building to reduce [00:33:00] its carbon footprint. So she got some, um uh, sky, um, uh, sun light things on the on the roof so that we could power the the heating on the pool via via solar energy. But when she decided that she wanted to put windmills on the top of the top of the building in order to, um, make us get us off the electricity grid completely, I decided she had gone a little bit too far. And maybe I should exercise a little bit of discretion. Our friendship, of course, formed out of that time we had on [00:33:30] the on the body corporate committee. Um, and it's I don't really know how it happened. We just sort of tended to find ourselves in each other's apartments. We never really arranged it. Um, the thing that drew us together largely was that we were both, um, alcoholics. Um, I do remember one, particular Monday night. I actually I have no idea how it happened, but we found I. I found myself in her apartment. Um, at about four o'clock in the morning, I thought, What the hell am I doing here? It's I've got to go to work tomorrow. [00:34:00] and I'm completely drunk. So and I think what happened was that we we decided we'd have a quick drink after work, and we just enjoyed ourselves too much. And before we knew it, it was four o'clock in the morning and I was stumbling up the fire stairs. Um, I think our friendship was characterised as being easy. Um, I didn't You never had to work for it. Um, you just run into her in the street, and suddenly you'd find yourself talking about any topic. She was passionate about. Everything. I think, um, she was obviously, um, into her arts, [00:34:30] and she she loved reading. Um, she was fiercely political. Um, in fact, I was afraid sometimes to express any opinion because I thought I'd get my head bitten off. Um, we had a quiz team which we used to really enjoy, which did the music quiz at the Southern Cross for for for a number of years. Um, I was the only heterosexual on the, uh on the team, and she named us a gaggle of gays, which I thought was a such a fantastic name and was, uh, the reason one of the it's just typical of her that she would should name a quiz [00:35:00] team that, um she was really proud of the stuff she did with, uh, the out in the park and and and the gay, um, the the the out games and so on. Um, she, um whilst I wasn't part of that community, she talked to me endlessly about how proud she was of the work she did with those groups. Um, she loved working at the at the ID. When I first met her, she was working for DIA. Um, but most of the time she worked at the IRD. Um, and I've never seen anyone so passionate about tax. [00:35:30] Um, II. I know more about research on tax than I actually wanted to know. Um, and I will spend the next few weeks trying to forget it. Um, but I think she saw it. Saw it as what it truly is that in fact, it's the way the society raises money to do good. Um, and I think that's why she was passionate about it. And she saw her job as doing good, and I think she generally did. Um, obviously, she was ultimately, she was diagnosed with cancer a number of years ago. Um, [00:36:00] I can't imagine that anyone would hold chemo parties, but obviously she did. And whilst I personally never attended them, I was able to see what she was wearing to chemo parties. Through what? Her posts on Facebook. And, you know, the fabulous shoes she'd wear and all those sort of things. Um, I'm sure she's the only person who's faced such a challenge in that way, But of course, she beat cancer. Um, and life went back to normal. Um, until about 10 months ago, when she was in my home and she told me [00:36:30] that it was back and she wouldn't survive it. Um, after I sort of pulled myself together, I asked her, What could we do for her to just and help me enjoy the rest of my life, please? And frankly, I think that's what everybody did. I mean, I think back to the birthday party, she had, um, last year, Um, the party she had in her apartment following the I can't remember what it's called, but the the the Mexican Festival. They had, um, uh below her and she she had a party in her in her home. Um, all the friends that were [00:37:00] around her, um, basically to her last moments, Um, we did help her enjoy the rest of her life. I'm really proud of that. Um, and in fact, she also went to the quite recently. She went to the Dixie Chicks and A and Adele and so on, despite being very sick, um, you know, it's it's it's great that she managed to enjoy the last days. I thought she faced her mortality in a way that I hope I'm brave enough to do. If I have the same, you know, I have to face the same thing. [00:37:30] The last time I saw her before the the day she died was, uh I had my wife and I had drinks with her in, um in Golding's bar. She was clearly very sick. Her breathing was laboured underneath it all. However, there was still the same effervescent Virginia. Um, what will I remember? I remember the glint in her eye when she was excited. Obviously, she was always excited, but when she was particularly excited, um, the genuine smile, Um, and [00:38:00] the huge laugh she had, um I think the other things I remember on a a few years ago, we went to see, um, Fleetwood Mac. Uh, my wife and I went to see Fleetwood Mac with her. Um, she she was a particular fan of Stephen. Nick gonna finish with a quote from Stephen. Nick the clouds Never expect it when it rains but the sea changes colours, but the sea does not change. Goodbye, Virge. I won't forget you. [00:38:30] I'm Sean. Uh, the You're a mighty and fierce fem queen. And it's an honour to read this for you. This is a fem slam. You say no one can read you. [00:39:00] And I think I am trying. You say you want too much. And I say, I am tired of pretending I don't want anything. I thought I can't possibly be a lesbian because the beings I relate to are those divine drag queens La Leon Queen Proud, hardheaded tutu goddess princess, baby witch bitch slut loveliness [00:39:30] hards and softs pirate proud, glitter crazed, hot headed high homo I submit, I admit I say please dance with me. Soft is stronger than hard. I can't be reasonable. It's just too limited My washing lines my room while I grasp for words and bravery to reach to be fearless. I [00:40:00] invited you because I didn't want anyone to be alone. However it is, we should be able to be close to one another when it is awkward when we hold. When it is hard, when there is not light when the glitter has run down the drain. When your body remembers when my body remembers and dreams the shame you poured me, let it be different. Let us be brave. You have so much swagger. [00:40:30] We have been called many things in our lives. And then lately someone called me a peacock. They made me screech and perform on a street corner, dancing on curbs and feeling my spin stretch and lift sky proud, shimmering feathers showing off their butch found my fam and there was joy and terror in it. Terror of revealing, showing wearing skirts of not being queer enough, [00:41:00] political enough if I care so much about expression and beauty and process and art, and I don't know the right words for anything, but I want to Is that enough? And if I can't walk in high heels or write as well as I want is that enough and if what I want to do when they tell you ugly things in your ear and threaten you and block my path is smother them with colour. Is this enough? And when they make me fear to walk my own [00:41:30] town without a big black coat, if all I want to do is make an army of glittering, dripping soldiers who flood bigness and love and wash the streets with shiny paths. Is this resistance enough? We are in this together. Write to her. Your one abandoned movement has opened a new room in me. It is filled with treasure. [00:42:00] I got lost in Gallery Lafayette. I was at the perfume counter and everything was gold and sweet and pink. My ancestors sailed and fought and fell out for generations over gold. I waited there, waited for my real parents to come and pick me up the ones who are millionaires, the ones who will buy me all of these gold things, she says, sitting here on [00:42:30] this sofa beside my daughter. I have to tell you, you have no idea what it's like to be a woman in this world. I will use everything I have to defend you I have your back and I will put my body before them. Write to him. What have I not told you? I have not told you this. That I would fight bare knuckle to be loved my whole life by boys [00:43:00] like you to find these places that are always being found and always being lost and trying to speak. I would blood my elbows to get into here to get the hands like yours all the way until I catch my breath and catch you. I have not told you that this trying lusting experiment this reaching for more. This balancing on faith is all there is and all I want there to be and all I look for nets when my [00:43:30] head swims and loses its ground Those nets are also made by us by our kind By all of our kind there is kindness in queer. I have not told you that. Yes, we love in different ways and we love different things. But when we love each other, it is the right thing. I have not told you that every sequin every shine that reflects us both every fierce, every high heel, every [00:44:00] telling every showing it is for me. And it is for you because you see me and that we defend this kingdom of ours tooth and nail and fight and beg and kneel before it and water it and need it. Raise it, hide it, shelter it Because we know what home is worth. Home is what we build together. We love you for you. [00:44:30] Thank you. Rebecca, Herwig and Sean. We're now going to have a song from Ruth. Who's going to perform for us today? Yeah. Dream [00:45:00] [00:45:30] right. [00:46:00] [00:46:30] Mhm. Right. Time, please. [00:47:00] Bye. [00:47:30] Right. Draw straight [00:48:00] was drawing him. [00:48:30] We [00:49:00] we [00:49:30] we [00:50:00] Thank you, Rose. Can I now invite Shelley who will read messages from these boys who are overseas? Yes. V has boys overseas. Quite a few of them. Shelley will be followed by Ben, who will be reading messages from another friend in the US. [00:50:30] Yeah, my name is Shelley, and I can't even recall actually where uh or when? I certainly know where uh I met was at Scott and and I think many of us probably first encountered her in that, uh, establishment, um, years ago. But my memory of V my memories of V are difficult to separate from [00:51:00] Jack and, uh, to me, they've struck me as a as a homogeneous whole, uh, the peer of them two quite different people in appearance, um, and perhaps conduct. And it's sort of, but it But it struck me that their relationship [00:51:30] was singularly good, um, strong. And I was thinking in the share of all places this morning, how how is it that this symmetry this, uh, synergy, um, was happening and it And it struck me that here we have two people, um, with very similar qualities. They've got strength. Uh, they've got courage, uh, empathy, empathy [00:52:00] and spa, um, energy and such giving, uh, to our communities. Um, And you wonder where sort of how two people who are so alike can get on without any sort of a a acrimony and and, um, and friction. And, uh, and it struck me that perhaps the difference was in Jack [00:52:30] to me. He strikes me as the ideal, if you like masculine and and Elizabeth the ideal feminine. And I think that's the yin and yang of their relationship that kept them so strong together. So everything else and they worked together that if you like that masculinity that Yin and Yang brought them together and made them into a fantastic hole. And that's how I think of of [00:53:00] both of you, Jack. You and sorry. And, um and I think that's how I I'll always see you, because you both brings, um, brings so much to our lives. So thank you. Thank you. And thank you. V. Uh, I'm very fortunate to be asked to speak to, um the tributes from these boys. Uh, I have three to speak [00:53:30] to, so please bear with me. Unfortunately, if they sound repetitious, I cannot apologise. I've had no input into the writing of these. They've come from people from different countries from different parts of the world. And they've all come to this one point connected by the one person who brings the same expressions of love in from everybody. So bear with me. When we arrived in New Zealand back in 2011, we were feeling blessed. The ultimate gift [00:54:00] from God was to get a chance to meet with one of the most incredible and kindest people on Earth. Virginia made us feel at home that very specific place where your heart belongs. She was the one who made us realise that everything is possible with good will, respect and engagement, that nothing resists openness, free love, good conversations and a glass of white wine on a Friday evening when we finally had to leave, we were certainly sad, [00:54:30] but we were no longer the same. We had been re-energized and ready to spread all around the message of tolerance, acceptance and care. Virginia, thanks for everything you have done and offered. You will always live on in our hearts, and we promise to be the proud and devoted messengers of your approach to life with all our love, Julian and Vincent, that's from France. [00:55:00] Second, I'm so fortunate that V was one of the first people I met among the close friendships that developed upon my arrival in Wellington. Like many, I was instantly drawn to a fabulous style, cheeky sense of humour and her zest for life. I think many will agree that being friends with V was like having your own personal cheerleader. She was perpetually optimistic and supportive of her friends and always eager and willing to join them in whatever adventures came along. I'll always cherish [00:55:30] the many laughs, squee, deep conversations and silly moments. We shared both with each other and with friends. It is impossible to list all of the amazing things about V. Fearless, engaging, dedicated, intelligent, positive, loving and gorgeous. Inside and out are only a few that spring to mind. The taught me that friendships are not the result of time, but of laughter and moments [00:56:00] shared. My life is exponentially better because of his mark on it. I miss you, dear friend. Love always Alan. It's Alan McKenna. I'm not sure where Alan is now. Is he back in Canada or yeah, Third one Virginia as a natural people connector. She welcomed us warmly into the Wellington LGBTI community when we arrived in 2010. Our our arrival coincided [00:56:30] with the preparations for a major rainbow event here in Wellington. We then quickly worked out ideas on how the Dutch Embassy could support the art games. Virginia, combining professionalism with an elegant, charming approach, made it easy to convince Ambassador a van der to support the human rights conference being held concurrently. With the Out games being inspired by her energetic presence in the community, Arno decided to join her team in organising the following out in the square event. [00:57:00] Unfortunately, in 2013, the time came for us to leave beautiful Wellington and its loving community. Having lived abroad for 20 years, we felt we should return to Holland and strive for a similar sense of community at home. It was lovely, then, to meet up with again in 2014 with Virginia and Jack and some of you in Dublin, where Ben's old choir, the glamour phones, participated in the various voices event. Thank you, Virginia, for everything [00:57:30] you gave to the LGBTI community, but also for being such a an inspiration to ourselves. And and I'd just like to finish with another personal, um, thing Virginia has that had that unique quality of being in a crowd and yet still being able to engage you in a personal, intimate conversation. And I remember having one such conversation, uh, playing bowls [00:58:00] one Sunday in, uh in the lower hut, and, uh, she was talking about my style and reckon I should be wearing sleeveless tops or dresses and the like and, uh, and I complained that No, I've spent the best part of five decades trying to be butch and everything that that's not feminine about me, uh, and living the lie. And so having come out and being Trans, the last thing I wanted to do was [00:58:30] was present anything that would would be hint at masculinity but told me but and encouraged me that, you know, that was really just a part of who I am and that, um, I should embrace that. And so the know, [00:59:00] um, I'm just here on behalf of Tyrone, who's in Columbus, Ohio, looking up at his parents. Um, I think I've been chosen to speak to him by on behalf of him. Because we look the same. I'm I'm a little bit taller, so don't tell him yet. And I think, um, before I start, I think if he was here, he would probably start this by saying, Hey, boo boo. Um, Virginia lived in a magical bubble in which anyone who [00:59:30] entered felt appreciated, Appreciated for the person we show we choose to show the world and celebrated for who we are in our souls. There was a moment at one of these sores where she was gifted a dance from some of her friends. Two morph suited artists danced amongst the assembled group of bankers and barristers, drag performers and civil servants. Whilst the lyrics My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard swirled from the speakers. That was a powerful moment that could [01:00:00] only have happened because of the There is a phrase that states pain is caused from lack of from a lack of space. So it should be no surprise that I have been changed for the better by having been in Ger's space, a space she filled with laughter and music, passion and ideas, eloquent pronunciation, a healthy dish of subversion and, of course, love. And that was the true magic of Verge love, love, Tyrone. [01:00:30] Thank you, Shelley and Ben, Can I ask the team from outer spaces to come forward now with their tribute to the hi there? I'm here today to speak on behalf of Outer Spaces, an organisation that we supported for many years and to whom we are so grateful. With the help of those in the organisation who have been involved for longer than I and have had the privilege to work with V over many years, I'd like to share [01:01:00] with you some of the amazing things that V has done not just for outer spaces but for the wider community of rainbow Youth in Wellington. In preparation for this speech, I was encouraged by a fellow board member, Sandra, to take a listen to some interviews with V on the Pride NZ website. Um, Sandra felt that V was well represented there, speaking passionately about our Rainbow communities. She was right. There was so much passion. There was her talking about transphobia, homophobia and [01:01:30] biphobia. There's her talking about queering up places and the importance of community and all the events that she was a part of organising over many, many years here in Wellington. And amongst all of this, she delivers a very clear message that young people in rainbow communities still experience all kinds of challenges in coming out and deciding to transition, and she stresses the importance of supporting young people against the effects of oppression. I'm a member of this younger queer community, [01:02:00] and while I didn't know V well, I've certainly benefited from her passion, her generosity and her legacy. It was really special for me to hear her speak passionately about the young rainbow community. It really gave me an insight into the driving force behind her many generous acts. Recently I've learned how much of a fierce, fabulous FM V was. And on behalf of outer spaces, I'd like to say how much her fierce fighting spirit has meant to us [01:02:30] over the years. Outer Spaces is the umbrella organisation in Wellington, which brings together sexuality and gender diverse youth support initiatives, including schools out transform, naming New Zealand and the binder exchange Outer spaces is a meeting ground, a place of joint work and support. V and her partner, Jack, have been an unwavering. They've been unwavering supporters of outer spaces and all our youth initiatives. And for many years [01:03:00] now, in fact, together V and Jack have organised so many fundraising events for outer spaces, it's hard to remember them all. One such event was the fabulous. The first Feb, I'm told, was in 2013 and since then has been a near annual event. Along with organising and hosting these events, Jack and V also managed to encourage their friends to perform um at the lunches, which was a very strategic move to encourage [01:03:30] the attendees to open up their wallets and donate even more money to other spaces cash that was so desperately needed by us to keep running our Rainbow Youth support groups Here in Wellington. Those faul lunches weren't just about raising money, though. They were also a valuable opportunity to connect older rainbow folks to the work being done by us young At each faul lunch representatives from the various organisations under the umbrella of outer spaces were invited to attend and speak about the work being done [01:04:00] back in 2015. While I was a facilitator for schools at, I had the privilege of attending one such event. For me, this opportunity was powerful not only because it was a chance to speak to these generous benefactors about the amazing work that we were doing, but it was also a really special opportunity for me to meet older LGBT folk. There can sometimes be a disconnect between generations within our rainbow community, Um, but this fabulous was an opportunity to build a bridge [01:04:30] of understanding between young and old er um, to to extend our rainbow. Sometimes as a rainbow young person, it's easy to think that you're alone out here, but to see all those incredible, successful older queer folk who had, in my opinion, made it was really powerful for me, a reminder about the of visibility just being out and proud and yourself is a powerful tool and [01:05:00] a reminder for me just how important outer spaces is. Of course, Faul lunches weren't the only way they showed her support for outer spaces. There were other fundraising efforts, too, like finding us rent and office furniture and passionately gathering volunteers to help with youth events in Wellington. More recently, there was the famous George Michael auction on Trade Me uh, Jack, and we managed to get their hands on the incredible winged and belled Saint George Michael Cutter that was positioned in the Iko Iko window for Pride Week. [01:05:30] The fact that after a ferocious bidding war, we bought George to make sure her and Jack didn't have to part with his fabulousness. Tells us, tells us all that we need to know about her. She was sheer class, queer to the bone and a staunch giver to outer spaces and, by extension, all rainbow young people in Wellington. Many of you will know that V's generosity to outer spaces extended right up until the moment that she left this place. She insisted those [01:06:00] attending the community event in her honour last Sunday gave A to us it feels to us like she was thinking about how to make the world a better place, a safer place, a more celebratory place for rainbow young people, right up until her last breath. Outer Spaces would like to express our deepest respect and love to V and to Jack and to everyone out here today to mourn her. She was a very special woman [01:06:30] that we feel richer for having known for having known. We are grateful for the way she modelled what being a member of the rainbow community should be about supporting all of us to fight fiercely for our rights to celebrate who we are. Thank you. V has created a message for us all, and it's available here today. Please take a copy when you leave these parents Judy and Harry [01:07:00] and her partner Jack. Thank you for your love and support that you've extended here today. Following the service, we invite you to join us for refreshments at the hall at Saint Andrews, on the terrace for anybody who wants to brave the Wellington weather out there? You're welcome to join us. In a walking procession through the terrace via Parliament's front lawn. A small group of friends and family will leave at 2 p. m. for a private cremation. Then [01:07:30] a gathering to share stories, laughs, tears and hugs will be held at Viva in Dixon Street at 3 30 with cocktails at S and M Bar in Cuba Street. At 5 30 you are most welcome to join us to celebrate our dearest thee. It's time to draw our ceremony to a close and our final. We call [01:08:00] on the supreme sacredness to release me to free her heart, her body and her spirit. I invite you all to help me do that. And so there's a couple of places in the that we need your reply. And so when I say at the end, I'll call out and you reply. So practise that now. So I'll go and you go [01:08:30] and then the next one I'll call out and then you go one more time. And what that means is that we are all agreed. So be it that we are united in our purpose and I just want to acknowledge that there's some of us some of you out there who are not quite there yet. [01:09:00] You wish you could have seen me one more time. Uh, you wish you could have done something You wish she hadn't done something. But in this space, V can see right into your heart. So let us revel in our shared love for Virginia Rose Bins, and we will send her off. And the absolute style that she deserves in the most glamorous [01:09:30] casket on the planet, the V box. Mhm. I would now like to invite up our pool bearers. Arthur, Ben, Debbie, Stu, Roger and Ed. I [01:10:00] would also like to invite up gay. And if there are any other in the house, I would like you to come up to be by me up here as well. So once you're in position, we'll do our We'll finish this together and let's send her off. [01:10:30] It it. Put it out. [01:11:00] Yeah, 15. [01:11:30] [01:12:00] Why, thank you, Captain. Yeah, [01:12:30] [01:13:00] [01:13:30] Yeah. Oh, [01:14:00] talk. [01:14:30] Yeah, [01:15:00] yeah, yeah.

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TITLE: John Jakeman - hairdressing
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VOICES: John Jakeman
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1950s; 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; Aldof Roder; Allan McCready; Antiques Roadshow (tv); Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Australia; BBC; Barcelona; California; Castel Felice (ship); Cat Stevens; Catalan; Colombo Plan; Continental Hairdressing Academy (Wellington); Deborah Vivien Cavendish; Derek Elvy; Donovan; Doreen Kelso; Downton Abbey (tv); Edward VIII; Egypt; Europe; Film Society; Francisco Franco; General election; General election (1960); Germany; Grahame Thorne; Hannah Playhouse; Harrods (UK); Homewood (British High Commission); Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); James Penny; Jewish community; John Chico; John Jakeman; Karori; Karori Reservoir; Kilbirnie; Lady Bledisloe; Lady Carnarvon; Lady Grandy; Lady Victoria Diana Leatham; London; Lord Mountbatten; Marianne Faithfull; Marie Antoinette; Mary Quant; Michael Beel; Māori; New Zealand Labour Party; Newtown School; Otaki electorate; Paraparaumu; Paris; Princess Margaret; QSMV Dominion Monarch (ship); Queen Mary; Raumati; Sandie Shaw; Spain; The Beatles; The Rolling Stones; Tom Cameron; Tutankhamun; United Kingdom; United States of America; Unity Theatre (Wellington); Valentino and Rita Of Knightsbridge; Vienna; Wainuiomata; Warsaw; Wellington; Wellington Institute of Technology; West End (London); White Heron Motor Lodge; World War 2; Zimbabwe; abdication; accountancy; appendix; apprenticeship; aristocrat; artist; arts; backcombing; ballet; barber; bars; beehive hairstyle; boat; bullying; bus; camp; caning; class; clothing; corporal punishment; cruise ship; dictatorship; drugs; elocution lesson; family; farm; farming; film; fur coat; gardening; gay; granny / aunty; hair; hair style; hairdressing; health; health care; homophobic bullying; homosexual law reform; industrial course; jeweler; jewellery; lolita; makeup; marcelling (hair); marriage; media; mining; mistress; parents; perm; photography; poultry; radio; royal family; royal hairdresser; rugby; satin pillowcase; school; seamstress; self-evident; servant; sexual liberation; sissy; skragged; sport; theatre; training; travel; unisex salon; upper class; volcano; watchmaker
DATE: 28 May 2017
YEAR: 2017
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast John Jakeman talks about his career as a hairdresser - in Wellington, London and Europe, from the 1960s onwards.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I had no idea what I wanted to do when I was at college, and I was not a good student. Um, I found college boring. Um, I was copying a lot of name calling. Um, I didn't really mind it. Um, but, uh, I used to get into a lot of physical fights, Uh, with boys, uh, picking on me and that. And of course, I had learned to retaliate physically having two older brothers. I knew how to look after myself. And so I was constantly getting into fights and getting into trouble to be hauled up. And of course, um, you know, you'd get [00:00:30] the cane and all that sort of thing Corporal punishment. And I was getting the cane probably most days at school, either for disruptive behaviour in class, because I was an attention grabber, but also, um, just, you know, fidgeting and talking and and carrying on. I was just bored senseless with it. And, um, I had had exams at school, and they telephoned my mother, and they said, Mrs Cameron, we really don't want him back next year. He's just [00:01:00] he's wasting his own time and hours, and he's Yeah, you need to think seriously about what he's going to be doing. And what year was this? Um, that would have been 1963. Yes. And what kind of names were the kids calling you Queenie? Mostly, um, you got all the usual ones, you know, like being called Stuart. I was called stew Pot and stew ball. I didn't mind those. Those sort of that was what you did in those days. But, Queenie, I didn't [00:01:30] really mind it. Uh, until one day I realised that some of my friends and in my class and it was an all male class because I wasn't a good academic academic achiever. I was put into what's called an in an industrial, um course. So woodwork and carpentry and horticulture and technical drawing and all the things that I absolutely loathed I would have liked to have done art and languages and music and all sorts of other interesting things. One of the boys actually said to me, um, why did your parents [00:02:00] call you Queenie? That just changed name for a boy. Because usually it was a Maori girl's name. And, um, I said, it's not It's Stuart. And I mean, we had been at college together, right from the third form, and he never he never knew that. Um, And then when teachers sometimes called me it, um, that gave licence to some of the bully boys then to really, um, you know, whack at you in break time and things like that because I felt well, you know, it's [00:02:30] it's Condoned. And the other thing was, um, rugby. Everyone had to play rugby. And at Newtown School primary school, I loved rugby. We used to play rugby a lot, and I enjoyed rugby. I'm from a rugby, rugby playing family. My parents are crazy about rugby, and my both my brothers and everybody way back. And so, um, when I got to the teachers there had a different attitude to rugby. If you didn't perform well in the classroom, [00:03:00] they'd be the same person, would be taking you for rugby. And so they would carry over that frustration they felt for you. Um, and I was naturally very self evident. I mean, I had always been a city, um, boy and a and a high voice, and I had to had elocution training, so I did stick out a bit Um, And also, if you didn't perform well on the field, they carried it back into the classroom. Conversely, I went home to Mom and I said, I hate I'm hating [00:03:30] rugby. I want to stop playing rugby And she said, Well, that's a shame Me who loved it and everything. So she went down to see them, and, uh, she just had a meeting with the teacher and she said, Look, you know, he always loved his rugby. And at Newtown, I thought he had a lot of potential and because it was strong and quick and, um, he, uh, was very, very assailed by that A. You know, don't forget. This was in the late 19 fifties and she was a woman and he was a man and [00:04:00] an academic, and she was a seamstress. So you know, Taylor. So that was sort of thing was in the background there. Well, the very next morning, he told the whole class in front of me before morning talks that Cameron's mother came down to say, and everybody then, of course, had licence to laugh their heads off and a lot of mocking. And then when we had footie that afternoon. Um, he made me the principal catcher in the line out, and I ended up being absolutely scragg. And [00:04:30] I decided that was it. And yeah. So, anyway, school was not a very good experience. And going back to why, you know, I started on hairdressing. I came home and she said to me that they're absolutely sick of you and they don't want you back. And I and she you've got to think about what you're going to do with your life and I said no And she said, Well, um, working at her sewing machine as she did, she was an art work at Taylor. She said, Um, I've been listening to Doreen's Woman's Hour and Doreen [00:05:00] Kelso and, um, she'd been down to a hairdressing academy in Lower Cuba Street Continental Hairdressing Academy. It was run by European Jews. A lot of them had been used to a very good lifestyle pre the war, and there were people of refinement, a lot of them, and they'd had a terrible time. They had tattoos on their wrists from the camps, and, um, you could see that they had been marked by that. But also [00:05:30] here they were suddenly in New Zealand and I mean an absolute backwater. In those days, it was, like, ghastly and no culture for those sort of people. And they've been used to Vienna or Warsaw or wherever they were. And, um, So anyway, she said to me, My mother, um, I'm gonna give you one and six and you take the unit into Wellington and you go to interview them and I said, Oh, Mum, I said, People are giving me a hard enough time about you know how I am And, [00:06:00] um, you know, it's gonna be terrible. And she said, No, Well, you know, um, go and see about it She said, You do enjoy women's company and you love being around women's chat. And she said, And I think with your elocution background, you'll be very presentable. And she said, You've done my hair all your life and I did. I used to do mad little wonky things on her hair, and, um, she then would do me a manicure. I'd put my hair in rollers and I'd go to school the next morning, [00:06:30] and that was an eye opener, and, um so Mom kind of cultivated that in me. And I think it was from what we alluded to last time that in her family, there had always been theatrical people. And, um so I went into town, did the interview, and, um, came back. And, um, my parents put up the 80 Guineas, uh, for the six month course, and she also told me that we would be moving back to Wellington. They decided that South [00:07:00] was great, but back to Wellington. And, uh, Dad had ran run for parliament and had lost out. And I had left a real man. He took it very personally. He saw it as a personal rejection rather than voter apathy. Which it was, uh, Tom Cameron. And, um, it was a labour ticket, and he was running against, um Oh, what was his name? McCreedy. Later, Minister of Police, I think, um, who was from an old, you [00:07:30] know, horror funeral family and had all the pedigree, you know, And what have you where his dad was a really working class labour man and and drove the local rubbish truck. Um, at that stage, he had been a watchmaker and jeweller, but he was yes. What eventually ended up there So what other occupations? Um, were you thinking of as a as a teenager? Did you have any other dreams In terms of what you wanted to do? I would have loved to have been a farmer. [00:08:00] I would have loved to go on farming. I would have made a good farmer. I love animal husbandry. Um, and I like working with stock. Um, I also was mad on chickens. That's my hobby. I used to keep little bantams as pets, but it got more and more and more. And I got very, very involved in, um, poultry. Um, even as a little kid And, um, I'd visit people's homes to see their FS, and they'd ask me questions about them and I'd read it all up. Mom and Dad had bought me books, and, [00:08:30] um, I thought I might be a poultry farmer. And, um, I even got a job actually, at a poultry farm up at, and I used to get 10 shillings a day for that, and mostly it was shovelling manure into sex. But we you know, we had to collect eggs and, um, help him with shifting fowls and all that sort of thing and I actually really loved that. He was a Dutchman and new with his young wife. And, um, I think he's still up there. Poultry farming, Quite [00:09:00] elderly. Now, Um, but yes. So Mum said to me, you know that now the farming really wasn't an option. And, um, you'd have to have money to buy the land. And what have you So for them to put up the for me to do the hairdressing course was really quite a thing. I worked at nights cleaning offices to pay them back while I was doing the course, And, um, so that, you know, by the time I'd finished, I paid them off. And, um, I remember, um, a lot of the students [00:09:30] of the programme. They were mostly girls, but there are a couple of Jewish fellas. It had always been a very good job for Jewish men because they have the background, you see, working with the public and and the money to set up a shop. And, of course, their parents would have been in the service industries as well. And, uh, would know exactly what was the right thing to do. And, um, I remember this Dutchman came down. Do [00:10:00] as we called him. Um, he turned up at the at the academy and he told them he was looking for a boy as a trainee in, and they said to him that I'd be just right for him. So I worked for, um, in, um until from 1964 through to 1967. But prior to that, while I was still doing the hairdressing course, we were still living in south [00:10:30] on a Saturday, A school? Uh, an old bus would come by, um, at certain spots. It would pick people up to take them up to beach to the Picture theatre, local Picture Theatre. And of course, it was quite a social social thing. The bus lots of laughter and talking and floating and carrying on. And, um, there's always a lot of excitement. But everyone had heard that I had done it start to do hairdressing. And there was a girl on the bus, [00:11:00] and she was, um, quite a low Lita. She was, and, um, she'd been doing hairdressing on Lampton Quay, so she'd heard, and she got me to sit by her, and she was talking to me about hairdressing and what they were doing at the salon. And where did I think I'd be working? So by the time I got off, everyone was sort of a little bit. Hm? I wonder what that was all about. And I had been outside the picture theatre with the other young fellas and horsing [00:11:30] around and carrying on as he did in those days and a bit of banter. And when I walked into the picture theatre, someone yelled out, Look at old Queenie. He's a bloody hairdresser and everybody titted and laughed, and I just I just carried on, you know, I was used to that, but I went home and I said to Mum, I've I'm over it. And that's when she actually really Then I think it was Yeah, we're we're moving out. We'll go back. [00:12:00] And so for them, it was a big thing. They lost all their friends and everything, and they started again in Dad got a job up at the, um, reservoir there. So there was a house going with the job, so it was perfect for me. I could walk up the hill to and, uh, birdwood street every day and walk back down you think about it now, it would kill me. But, um yeah, so that's how I got into hair dressing. And, um and as my mother said to me, she [00:12:30] said, It's a job which can take you anywhere, and you can work anywhere in the world and travel, you know, was a big thing. So I met, um, a guy who lived on the terrace. He was a well known person because of age, I suppose, because he was a black man and black men just didn't exist in Wellington at the time. Really? And his name was Johnny Chico and he was studying accountancy, [00:13:00] accountancy at Victoria University. He and I, as I said, I had to work at nights to pay off the course and then also I worked at nights because I wanted to have enough money quickly to leave New Zealand. I decided I wanted out. I wanted to get to London and or Germany. I didn't mind which, but I wanted out. So I had this wonderful job at the, uh, White Heron restaurant out in at the Mermaid restaurant. It was called in the White [00:13:30] Heron Motor Lodge, and Johnny was a kitchen hand there with me. So we got to really know each other, and I'm really quite fascinated with him. He was from Rhodesia, and he came out on what was called the Colombo Plan, which was an agreement to exchange students between, um Commonwealth Countries. And of course, in those days, Zimbabwe was Rhodesia. And, um I think really, what drew us together was that II I was doing the hairdressing, and I'd come in for a bit of street bullying, [00:14:00] you know? And as I think I told you last time guys elbowing you, shouldering you off the pavement and yelling things and that because I'd be out with the hairdressing girls and I looked a bit sissy. Johnny, Um, because being black, um, I don't think he really came in for what you'd call racial discrimination, But it was very hard for him to make friends. And because we had met uh, working in the restaurant, we used to have to spend a lot of time together, and he was a great mate. Um, and he really [00:14:30] opened my eyes to this other world beyond New Zealand, you know, even though he had come virtually from the then Rhodesia to New Zealand. He said, There's another world out there, and I think this is something that you should aim for. And, um, so really? And he and I corresponded the entire time that I was away overseas, and I was away for about seven years, and, um, it was just so thrilling to come back and meet up with him again. Now, of course. You know, nearly [00:15:00] 30. And I was in my late twenties. Um, no, it was a great friendship, but yes, Um, I, I really feel that for me, hairdressing was the perfect choice as a career, and it served me very well. Can you tell me about, uh, what you were taught at the academy? Yes. Well, of course, the hairdressers that were training us. Um, I still remember them. Um, they, of course, apart from the continental trainers that we had, uh, Mrs [00:15:30] Gluck and, uh, one or two others. Um, we also had, um uh he was a really lovely fellow. He was, um, an older man. And, um, he had two lovely daughters, and, um, he had obviously been a highly skilled hairdresser in his day. And Mrs Knight And what they? They had been training, of course, in the thirties, forties and fifties, because they were they weren't young people. And, um, so they had a wealth of skills. And when [00:16:00] I look back on it, um, of course we were, you know, 1964. Hairdressing was really taking off with the whole change that was coming in with Beatlemania. Um, Mary Quant Vidal Sassoon. Um, the beehives, um, back combing and teasing the They're very extreme hairdressing. I mean, we were going back to hairstyles, which had their foundation in that period of Murray on to an I mean, the makeup as well. You know, false, [00:16:30] um, beauty spots and, um, eyelashes, false eyelashes, the very pale foundation makeup, um, the coral, pink and white lipsticks, Um, and the eyeliner, Um and of course, um, you know, the guys were now wearing the the the stove pipe trousers, and it was in the Beatles style. He, um they taught us wonderful skills, um, and skills that were very relevant to them. [00:17:00] So when we left that course, we had learned everything we needed to know to be competent hairdressers and really all we got was a polishing up by the employer. Uh, so virtually you were earning money immediately for your employer. Um, and although there was, uh, a very strict period of trainee in the salons, there wasn't an actual apprenticeship. The apprenticeship was established in, I think, the early seventies. So I I didn't actually do an apprenticeship [00:17:30] of hairdressing. Um, in many ways, I think they served us better doing those six month courses than what the students now have currently with the year long and two year long hairdressing courses. Because I feel that students need to young, um, hairdressers need to get out into the real world of hairdressing smartly so that they are moulded to that environment not as students in the school or academy, because [00:18:00] they pick up unfortunately, bad attitudes and habits. And it makes it very hard then for a hairdresser employer to break those habits and train them to Well, now you're actually in the real world of hairdressing, and it's a whole different ball game. I'm not your tutor. I'm your employer. So what I say goes, Whereas when they've been working under the supervision of tutors, it's a whole different, uh, ethos. So what were the hairstyles that you were doing [00:18:30] in the sixties in Well, we were doing an awful lot of the, um, with the regular clients, a lot of the, um, standard weekly shampoo and set. I mean, every woman who had, uh, any money at all would have her hair done every week. And mostly, um, we she we would be the only people who would shampoo it for her because the hairdos were quite different. So ladies didn't wash her hair every day like they do now. They went and had it set, washed and set, [00:19:00] um, meaning put rollers. While the hair was wet and dried under a great big dryer, they were taken out of the dryer. Rollers were removed after they had cooled, and the hair was brushed vigorously to break up all the roller partings and then brushed into the line of the actual style where the rollers had been placed. The rollers were placed always in, um, formation to create the desired style outcomes. He didn't just plonk [00:19:30] and curless willy nilly. You actually followed a pattern. Strict pattern. And, um then, um uh, after the brushing into the line of the style, if they wanted and mostly did you back combed it, meaning that the hair was knotted at its root base in large pieces to provide a padding for you to smooth the front hair over. So you couldn't see the back combed or knotted here. But it gave that volume and height. And you know, you may well have photos [00:20:00] of your own, um, Nana in her day with a great big hair do. And that's how that we did it that was sprayed liberally to hold it in place. Um, they would have a satin pillow to sleep on so that the hair didn't shift around as it would on a cotton pillow. They would wear nets over their hair. Or they would wrap their hair in a silk scarf so that when they woke up in the morning, they literally just skimmed it lightly over with the little comb or little comb brush and poked and prodded at it to [00:20:30] get the volume right. Sprayed it again and off they went, Um, and of course, today we think, oh, washing your hair only once a week. Well, actually, we probably today over wash our hair. We don't allow hair time to actually be conditioned by the natural oils. And, um, of course, today we're sort of a bit over about that sort of thing. But in human history, it wasn't always so, um, we did those Those are the standard, you know, matrons, [00:21:00] the the housewives, Um, that we did a lot of perming. Everyone had perms and just about everybody. Um, so, uh, as well as spending, um, her 15 shillings or whatever It was a week on a shampoo set. She also paid 6 to 8 Guineas every 10 weeks for a perm. And, of course, they also had colours and quite extreme colours as well, because it was the sixties, and so hairdressing was a very profitable [00:21:30] business. My boss's wife had some beautiful fur coats and the manufacturing jewellers in Lampton Quay. They learned to welcome her. When she walked in the door, there was money, and it was hardly profitable. I was being paid £7. 02 and six a week. No. Five Guineas. Sorry. I was being paid five Guineas, which is 20 shillings and 1, um, 21 shillings, 20 shillings to the pound. [00:22:00] So I was being paid five Guineas. Um, and of course, when you think I was probably doing three or four poms a day at 6 to 8 Guineas each he was and then shampooing set and cutting and doing all sorts of other things too. It was hugely profitable hugely. Um, and that's why I had a, uh, a night job. I could get £7. 02 and six a week washing dishes. And so by the time I was 20 I had probably about £3500 in the bank, which was a lot [00:22:30] of money. I could have bought a house in in road for that then that not being a very fashionable area in those days. What about the, uh, male haircuts of the time men would never see be seen dead anywhere near a lady's hairdressing salon? The girls that I worked with always had boyfriends, Plenty of them because they were, you know, the girls knew how to do themselves up and not quite glamorous. So to, uh for a guy to be dating a lady's hairdresser girl, well, [00:23:00] you know, she'll be turning heads. As he walked down the street, the guys would wait outside and they would walk around on the pavement, not looking like they were looking in the hairdressing salon. Um, even if her husband came to collect to his wife, he would wait outside. It was just like I wouldn't be seen dead going in or out of the place. Um and then all of a sudden, in the 19 seventies, they deserved Developed a concept of what's called unisex hairdressing. [00:23:30] Barbering had gone down, the quite literally, the young guys all wanted longer hair. The barbers went up to doing it. If the young guys wanted a trim or a style, they were just just likely to get massacred by a barber because the barbers were trained in Clipper work from the fifties and further back. So they really went up to doing that. So the the hairdressers decided, Well, there's an opening here. So they started to, uh, brand themselves as unisex, [00:24:00] meaning both. And all of a sudden it caught on. And I tell you what. It was a boom time, and the guys spent money on their hair. Um, you know, and they'd come in, have it shampooed, um, cut and styled and dried off a bit and off they'd go. But some of them would have a few, um, blonde bits put in. And these are straight guys, too. Um, it became acceptable to have that beach boy look, um, so we would use what's called the old streaking cap on them and pull through a few [00:24:30] streaks and bleach them up. So the boys looked like they'd been out in the sun for a few weeks. Um, and they'd come in with their girlfriends at the same time. And then, of course, the eighties big hair perming caught on. So we had the guys being permed and that for hairdressing salons, the Perming salon was a wealthy salon. There was a lot of money in it, and, um, it's some of the guys looked [00:25:00] amazing with a bit of a curl. I mean, there were disasters, but a lot of them, you know, they wanted that sort of cat Stevens kind of look and yeah, they look great. Um, you know, suddenly they look like Charles the first or someone you know of England. Ringlet curls all over it. It looked great, and it wasn't considered effeminate or anything. At the time, it was considered Well, that's what guys do, but there is the famous story, isn't there? Where a sports commentator who I shall not name, suddenly appeared on television on his usual Saturday [00:25:30] night programme to discuss the rugby of the day. People like my father would be all be watching that and he'd had his hair permed and it was a disaster. He just didn't look right with it, just didn't look right at all. And, you know, overnight it killed the male perming industry. It just stopped just like that. That was the end of that. And kiss that goodbye. They've been such a wonderful form of income because you did all kinds of perms on them they didn't want just ring little curls, and they sometimes [00:26:00] they wanted real Afros. You know, I mean, talking here about the big Afro here, Um, and it looked good on some of the Maori guys. A lot of them and also on the guys. And then some just wanted a bit of volume to make their hair look a bit thicker. So just like women, Did you know it was considered normal for a while there, I think, um, it may 1 day come back. Who knows? But I don't. I don't know. The hairdressers don't seem to be behind that. No, they don't seem to really want to revive [00:26:30] the perming craze. So back in the early sixties, when it it it was, um, you know, AAA female salon. How were you treated as a gay man in that environment? Um, I did come in for some derision. Um, from some women, Um, they'd come to the salon and see, uh, me there, uh, working. And they'd make comments to the headdress about Oh, what's he doing in here? And how ridiculous. And what he needs is a good game [00:27:00] of rugby. And I bet he does ballet and his part time and those sort of comments. Um, I found with those sort of people, you just would be exquisitely polite and caring, and they would get the message. Um, but mostly I found the better educated women and certainly the more worldly women. I thought it was marvellous and were very encouraging and would let me do the hair, even though I didn't [00:27:30] do it as well as my employer. They would say, I don't mind if Stuart does my hair. And for Mr that was great. because he could offload clients on to me. And that's how I started to get my clean to really. And, um, I could still remember those ladies, Um, to this day, you know, 50 odd years later and think, Well, gosh, you know, I owe them. And one day, um, because being in, we were close to the, um, the British Consulate, Homewood. [00:28:00] And they would host, um, dignitaries from England because the, um, the alliance between New Zealand in military, uh, was much stronger then with Britain, and so many of the naval people and military people who came up from Britain would be hosted at Homewood. Um, and, of course, would be liaising with their counter New Zealand counterparts. And, um, so one day I was there and and I saw this very dignified looking man walking down the road, [00:28:30] and I realised it was Lord Louis Mount Batten. Anyway, about an hour later, I get a phone call from Lady McLennan at the, uh at Homewood, and she said, Look, we've got Lady Pamela here, Lord Louis's daughter, and she said, um, she's very particular, and she wants her hair washed and set, and I had to trim it, too. Can't remember. Anyway, that was my introduction to dealing with aristocracy, [00:29:00] and I realised it was this other class of person. It wasn't that she was, um, snobby or or anything else. She was just used to a different kind of relationship with serving people and, um, sort of shades of Downton Abbey, I suppose, in a way. And she was so impressed with her hair that she made mention of me to a lady Grandy. That's a name and a half, isn't it? Her husband was, um, very, [00:29:30] very high up in the Admiralty in England anyway, lo and behold, he came out with her and we got a phone call again from Lady McLean, and she said You'll be required to clear the sun on. She said, There, there can't be other ladies in there. So Dolf said, Well, that's all right. Let him clean. And you've got a quiet afternoon and I can telephone some of the people and put them off. But, um, Lady Grandy would need to be here at one o'clock, she said, when she walks in the door, stand at attention and just nod [00:30:00] your head before and don't speak to her until she speaks to you. But Wow. So anyway, he said to me, You can do her here because he was a real Dutchman. He did not fall in for that bullshit. I mean, he was from a very humble background and not Rotterdam. And his mother used to sell herrings off a tray around the streets of Rotterdam. You know, it was a Cockney, really, a Dutch version of a Cockney. So he wasn't gonna have truck with that because I was dying to terrified as well. [00:30:30] She turned up and she had a she held up to to look at us and her hair was up and a sort of a bun on top of her head, very high collar. And she was about 6 ft two, very slim and skinny, but and quite an older woman. And she was formidable. You could tell. And so, um, I attended to her, and during the process, um, she told me about her sons and their military. Um, one was in Egypt. There was a big drama [00:31:00] going on there, and, um, she said to me that she would would get her hair done. A knights bridge and I said to her, Well, I wanted to go to London and that I would be looking for a job. She said, Would you like a letter of introduction? I said I would, My lady, I said I'd be very, very grateful. I said. Then I shall send you a letter from Britain and it will be a letter of introduction to Valentino and readers in Road Knights Bridge. I said, Well, thank you very much. It's very gracious of you. And [00:31:30] I went home and Mom said, Yes, this is perfect. She said, Oh, I do hope she writes back. Well, she did. Lady McLean brought the letter down herself. And so I, um, wrote a letter to them in London and, um, to, uh, Valentino and Rita and I said that that was the name of the business. It was a a court appointed hairdressing. So we had the the royal court emblem above the door. There was a butler, um, two [00:32:00] receptionists. There was a resident, uh, housemaid. She served the ladies while they were under the dryer. We had a full time cook. She prepared little salads and club sandwiches. Um, we had a boy who was a runner, boy, he could fly out up Brompton Road to the nearest bar and bring back, um, alcoholic refreshment. Should they want one under the Yes, you know, come flying down the road, uh, with a little tray with a glass on it with the the double gin and ice for my lady. And, [00:32:30] um, I wrote to them and they said We will be pleased to meet you. What I hadn't realised was that titles and names really go in England, and they still do. It was astounding how, nearly 40 years later, when I went to work on cruise ships at age 58 and I mean, I stopped working for Valentino and Rita when I was 21. Um, that presenting their, [00:33:00] um, reference and just the mention of them, even though they didn't even know that was enough that I'd worked in a quarter pointed hairdressers. That was enough. Even 40 years later, they were They knew I'd be right for attending to that class of people that they that are on the more exclusive cruise ships, the ones where there's only about 304 100 passengers with a caring staff of about 500 [00:33:30] I had to share a cabin with one of the butlers. Um, it was a great adventure, but yes, it that's how I came to, um, get into the hairdressing. And and as I said, by the time I was 20 I turned 20 in April, and in the October I sailed on the cast Felice for London. And, uh, yeah, And what was that, like leaving New Zealand for the first time. I really had a strong spiritual love for my country. [00:34:00] I I remember we sailed out of Auckland. I had to fly to Auckland and, um, get to the wharf. It was all quite frightening, you know, It was, you know, take a bus into town and find the wharf, and you sort of terrified You're gonna miss the boat and all that carry on. And, um, we we were sailing out of Auckland and I remember looking back and I didn't know Auckland. I'd only been there once before, but it was New Zealand and we were going past the islands [00:34:30] of the Gulf and passed and out towards the ocean. And I keep thinking I may never come back. I may never come back. And that's how I felt, too. I didn't want to, actually, And, um, I thought I would stay away forever if I could. I was over it. You know, it just that I I wanted more out of life, and there's been a lot of New Zealanders before me who felt the same. And I felt I could get recognition in overseas. I never made it big, but I had a damn good [00:35:00] time, you know? And it was wonderful for me and very, very enriching. Um, so the cruise ship, the cruise ship the the passenger ship, of course, was its own little floating island of humanity. We were all mostly, um, young people going on a working holiday. So it was a hell of a lot of boozing and shagging going on and shipboard romances and tantrums and heartbreaks and all the usual things that happen between young people who are totally unsupervised. Um, many [00:35:30] of us had never been away from home before in our lives. I mean, the the six week, um, sailing to Europe was the like, a huge for a lot of them myself. Um, I was not at ease with my gayness. even though I was very self evident, I still didn't really want to really say yes. That's what I am. I mean, the word gay wasn't really bended around. You would have to say Yes, I'm a homo, And that would be that was it. So I at first to keep myself to myself pretty well. I [00:36:00] was hit on by quite a few of the crew. They were Italians. And, um, I would sort of be, um I was fascinated and titillated and terrified. Um, and, of course, a few of the guys, too. Um, you know, some of them from from the Outback of Australia and whatever. And like I told you, you know, about the first World War episode. We were all thrown together, and they were looking for a mate and, um, quite keen on the lady to dress a boy and, um, had a few of those little, um, [00:36:30] sort of things too. But unfortunately, Gareth, I never followed through on it. And now I could kick myself all those wonderful adventures that I could have had. Um, but I made some great friends. And when by the time we got to London, uh, we booed in Southampton. We disembarked in Southampton and went on the train up to Waterloo. Um, I quickly liaised with some of the boys from the ship, and, uh, we ended up, you know, in, um in rooms [00:37:00] and sharing digs. It was great. It really was wonderful. So what was London like in 1967? Um, England swings like a pendulum do. It was absolutely rocking. I mean, we were at the height of Beatlemania, but then it was Donovan. It was black, Dusty Springfield, Marianne Faithful. Or it was Sandy Shore. It was just absolutely thumping. And you saw because I was working in hands road Knightsbridge. [00:37:30] So you walked down from the Piccadilly underground along Brompton Road and even in in in at that early time of the morning, you saw people who just looked amazing, you know, beautiful coats and clothing, you know, And the West end, um, after work. Sometimes myself and my coworkers, they were girls. Um, we would go down Sloan Square, and, um, of course you saw the you know, the the of young upper class people that would be drinking in the fashionable [00:38:00] bars of Kings Road. And sometimes we would go into a bar and the Rolling Stones would be just be leaving or, um, yes. Or you'd go into a men's a menswear shop and there'd be someone, you know. And you think, Oh, gosh, So and so And they were buying clothing where we worked. Um, we opened out onto the side entrance of Harrod's and because it was more discreet. That's where personages would arrive in their chauffeured cars. The chauffeur would pull [00:38:30] up, leap out, open up the back door, and Princess Margaret or Mary Anne faithful, or someone would dart in the side entrance of Harrods and go straight through to the food hall. Um, they would all be prepped. They were arriving. And so you saw a a fascinating side. It was It was very, very yes. Marvellous. One of my roommates, um, I ended up sharing a bed. Sit with him. Um, he got to know he was gay. [00:39:00] But, you know, we never, ever talked about it. We lived together for about two or three months or more. We never actually said, you know, do you think you might be gay and discuss it? We never. But he, um He worked um, in one of the tailoring manufacturers, Um uh, in London, Um, gourmet suits. I think it was. And he was doing a trainee ship there. And, um, he got to know guys from the BBC, and I now know why BBC [00:39:30] is called Auntie. It was one of the campus places you could ever imagine. He came back from a party one night, and he told me he'd been had a few drinks with Sherlock Holmes. It was the actor who played Sherlock Holmes or whatever. And, um, yes, um, I never got into that. It terrified the the thought of it terrified the wits out of me. I don't think I felt I had the confidence. Now I think, Gosh, I would have loved it. It would be just so interesting and so fascinating. Yeah, that's a little sideline, [00:40:00] but, you know, going up Carnaby Street, um, buying your clothes. Um, you know, there was a an upstairs in the attic, actually, of Harrods. They opened it up and made it to a young person's clothing. Um, outlet. And it was catering to the Sloan Rangers to the upper class, but because they'd have sales periodically. And you could get amazing clothing. And, of course, they were dressing people like the Rolling Stones and And what [00:40:30] have you so that it was, um it was a fascinating time in London. I loved it, but by the time I'd been there 18 months, I really wanted to go somewhere else. And I've been thinking about going to a northern city. Um, but of course, everyone in London when you discussed that would go. Oh, no, you don't want to go to York. And you don't want to go to places like that because they sort of thought, Oh, that would be horrible. And, um So I started to look towards, um, going to Spain [00:41:00] before we get to Spain. Can you just tell me? So did your letter of introduction Was that basically as good as a job offer? Oh, yes, it was. Yes, it was. Yes. She never came to the salon when I was there. She never once came. I always think I wonder if she'll turn up one day. She never did. Not once she probably lives somewhere in the country. You see, she live on she would live on an A state. She probably only would have come up to London for shows and things like that. But she was an older [00:41:30] woman, so she probably didn't bother with much with that, you know now, but but it is no doubt about it. That was like they employed me unseen, basically, just on the strength of this aristocratic woman's, uh, women. Really? Yes. And was the work that you were doing in the same as what you were doing in London? No. No, um, I owe a lot to that lady Grandy. Actually, [00:42:00] she she really did. She she put herself out there for me? No, The people I worked for in London were very elderly. Mr Valentino, as we called him. His real name was Jim Perry. Penny Jim Penny. He was an Anglo Indian. A very handsome, older man. Very, very handsome. He and Miss had been married for many, many, many, many years. She had been one of London's sort of beauties, but she wasn't of the upper class, [00:42:30] but she attended to them as a beautician and facialist. So she had an insight into all the gossip that was going on around the abdication. So they talked about the education as if it happened yesterday, that woman and what she had done to the royal family and poor Queen Mary, you know, and to them, it was just like it was still happening. That was the era. So she was doing facials and treatments, which she made up herself. She was quite a little, you know, chemist [00:43:00] in her own. Right. Um, I think she was a Belgium origin French Belgium origin originally. So she had a little bit of a flair there, you know, And, um, obviously that she was held in very high regard. So she while she had them lying on her table or bench, um, she would hear all the news. And, you know, like in the song, you know, I danced with a, uh, a woman who danced with the dance with the Prince of Wales. You know the song. I can't [00:43:30] remember it now. It was literally like that. And I mean, they knew that the abdication was coming before it actually came. They were on the inside. They were hearing it. So the hairdressing they were doing, they were still doing clients from the thirties and forties and a certain type of English lady does not change with fashion. She still has her hair done as she always had it done and the same style of makeup. So for me, it was like sometimes I was seeing people that looked like [00:44:00] Egyptian mummy, they they kind of never had changed. And, um, they were still coming to the same hairdresser and wearing the same style of makeup as they'd worn as young girls. Someone looked like they had a flower bag bashed on their face, absolutely white, the eyelids and everything. It just looked like they cover their faces in corn flour and then little weird cupid bow, lips, cheeks, um, and still spoke in that [00:44:30] style of the thirties. You know what what was considered chic speak, You know, which was so dated? Well, especially in the sixties, because language is changing so much with, you know, everything that I mentioned earlier. Um, they still had the Marcel waves. So we had a French gentleman. He had been actually a military man. Um, prior to the war in France and he had had I think he was part of the thing he had had to get out. And so he [00:45:00] was in London um, Stuart Albert And he had a little burner, a little spirits burner. And he would heat the curling irons on that and they would come in. Um, and they would, um, on their dry hair. He would to it. It's called Tonging, and he would create these amazing waves and curls all over their heads. And very you would have seen this stuff sort of things that we saw in the thirties, you know, beautifully waved, and it was called a mass cell [00:45:30] wave because it was done with hot irons and it would last them four weeks. And what they would do is they would powder it with dry shampoo to keep it clean. And, um, because once it would have been pressed into the waves, literally like pressing clothing. Once it had been pressed, It just stayed there. Yes, and you'd hear him click, click, click, click, click, click of the irons as he because he had to keep them working quick because they could easily burn through the hair. You would test them on brown paper to see [00:46:00] if they were hot enough or too hot, too hot. Apply them to the hair. It would just go straight through them and burn them right off. Um, so it was quite a tricky thing. Uh, they used to do finger waves. They used to do these wonderful, mad, old, up to sort of, um, reminiscent of Downton Abbey, the Dowager duchess. Um, well, some of the clients were dowager duchesses. You know, lady and all sorts of people were coming in, Um, the the now deceased doger, duchess of [00:46:30] Devonshire. She'd been one of the, um uh, her and her sisters had been considered the beauties of, um of London in their in their day. What were they called? They can't think of it now, but, um, yes. Um, So you I was being introduced to an A class of people I could never have hoped to have met. It was quite fascinating. It was really was. And I think back now, I think how fortunate I was you had to learn how to address them all according to their rank. You know, um, a lady [00:47:00] and, um, you know, Your Grace and the whole thing. Or Duchess Duchess, Of course, being the wife of a duke, and yes, it's quite interesting. We had members of the royal family, not the royal ones, because a lot of people, you know, realise that the now deceased queen mother had an extensive family in Scotland who was Scottish nobility. But they weren't royalty. Um, they would come to get their hair done done when they came down to visit family at Buckingham Palace, I suppose, or out [00:47:30] at Windsor. And it was astounding how they looked like the queen. Some of them there was a definitely she's the bows lion thing is there. Um, yes, it was. It was, uh, the were dated compared to what I was used to in. And I mean, Mr Valentino, I wished to him one day about it, and he said, Well, what You've got to understand, Stuart. He said, Ladies like to look like ladies. They don't want to look fashionable. They want to look that that when you like. As I said [00:48:00] when I first laid eyes on Lady Grandy, you knew you were in the presence of someone that's not really of this planet. They're of another world. And that was the kind of world I was moving in. Yes. And did you find that they would, um uh, chat to you that you would be AAA confidant. Well, it's quite interesting. Those ladies, um, had been brought up serves. So they never confided. You bet you were very valued. You You were an extension of the servant [00:48:30] class because you were waiting on them and they were used to being dressed and cared for at home. So we were just an extension of that. But as a New Zealander and I copped a bit of jealousy for this from my coworkers, they find us English. Generally find us hard to really click into a social level A because we're not into the kind of pecking order thing as they are quite the same. Although it does exist in New Zealand, as you're probably aware, [00:49:00] they find it hard to to put us into a social class with the aristocracy, many of them in the nobility having country estates. These were sequestered in the war to bullet young boys coming back from the front. So many of them had very wonderful, um, experiences of caring for and being part of the whole thing of caring for wounded New Zealand soldiers and insects. And they and I don't think [00:49:30] every new Zealander is aware of just how grateful the older generation, especially the informed and educated, the aristocracy, the nobility, the debt they really felt they had to us, the Commonwealth troops, they really were held us very, very dear. These unsophisticated, catered young soldiers long way from their moms and dads fighting for empire in Europe again, This is the second World War I'm talking about. [00:50:00] And, um, here they were living in, you know, these these estates had been converted into, you know, convalescent hospitals and hospitals. And they had very, very fond memories of them. Some of the, um, women and nobility had had family associations in New Zealand, not because they had been had relatives here. They had had money here in the old days of the gold, and New Zealand has always [00:50:30] gone through booms and busts. And there were times when New Zealand really did drum. It was booming. I just mentioned gold. But there had been curry. There had been all sorts of things. Wool meat. Um, they had associations that way. I mean, how did these wonderful estates survive financially? Probably because Granddad opened up freezing works and slaughterhouses in New Zealand or wherever throughout the British world. So that's how they they they had a a real link [00:51:00] to us. I. I actually, um, suffered ill health at one stage I. I had peritonitis and best appendix and septicaemia and I was hospitalised. I was visited in a public wing by some really amazing people. And I think I touched on that last time. You know, Lady B turned up because of the association with New Zealand. She I had never done her hair. But obviously, Mr Ball, my boss must have mentioned all the young New Zealanders in hospital. And she turned [00:51:30] up with her two daughters and they brought me Lucas and some fruit. Um, there are other ones, too. And of course, I was in a public ward at Saint Mary's Paddington with about 30 or 40 other men in the ward with me, Um, and because their families are coming to visit and they were just regular people when these people turned up, Of course, as I said, you know, when you're in the presence of them, um, but just very refined and very yes, you know, refined [00:52:00] people, but very human and very caring. And they were quite amazed. You know, I was a bit in awe of my Copas by that, you know that? Goodness, how how are you getting visits from people like that? Um, so I was very, very Yeah, my parents were very, very touched. Very, very touched when I told them Lady B particularly, was very, very her link with New Zealand and the the whole thing. Um, you could tell You could tell they loved [00:52:30] New Zealand. And they loved New Zealanders. Yes. Can you think of any other memorable clientele? Well, Lady Carnarvon, as I said, she she came with her daughter and her grandson, who I think is now the current duke of, um or Lord, whatever he is, um, he was about my age. Well, I'm 70 so he'd be 70 now. But Lady Caernarvon, she was just an old lady with walking sticks and, uh, you know, everyone was, you know, fluffing around her and making her comfortable [00:53:00] and getting attended to. And it was only years and years and years later I was watching footage from, um you know, Lord Caravan's, uh, expedition to Egypt and the whole thing that there were movies of her actual films taken off her beside the diggings and and it really hit me. I thought, Yes, I knew who Lady Carnarvon was. I knew that she was the wife of Lord Carnarvon and Carmen's tomb and everything, but it really humanised her to me. And it discussed the relationship [00:53:30] in this documentary and how difficult it had been for her with him out there, and his health was deteriorating. Um, and the whole thing of their estate, um, as I said also, um, the dowager Duchess of Devonshire that day she wasn't the Dowager she had. She she brought in two of her little girls. Uh, I don't know if she had more, but she brought in these two little girls, and I was to trim their hair, and they were quite imperious. Little girls, I can tell [00:54:00] you, too. They, um again, they were used to that, um, being attended to, and I was to attend to them. And you could see that there was the there was that little tone of command there about Well, you really do know what you're doing, don't you? And this was from a girl for about six. Yes. Um, that that that was fascinating. I. I found out later years later that, um, the duchess to be mad on fowls, which was something I could have, uh, shared with [00:54:30] her. And she was a well known breeder of Rhode Island Red fowls. Um, And we also had, um a Lady Elizabeth. Um, she got married while I was doing her hair. Um, no, I wasn't doing her hair and did her hair. She was a Cockney girl. She was a delight. She real real little Eliah to do. And, um, Lady Elizabeth Leon's family had been attached to the court of Henry the eighth. I think her [00:55:00] ancestor was Cromwell. And so they're old aristo aristocracy, like the Spencers. They're not of the Georgian, which we have now. They were of the previous the indigenous aristocracy of England. When England was ruled by British born, um, kings and queens, she got married. And, of course, um, being old blood, Um, the queen and everybody else would have attended that wedding. You could imagine the wedding presents. [00:55:30] The wedding presents would have been divine. It was on all the papers a lot. They went on this wonderful honeymoon when I got back everything they'd been given had been looted. Every single gift you could imagine devastating. She was a lovely woman. Um, very natural. Um, but as I said, you were in the presence of a lady. Um, and [00:56:00] years and years later, I was watching, um, Antiques Roadshow. And she's one of the consultants on fine bone China. I think it was. And I went Oh, my God. This lady Elizabeth Ham. So that was you know, so every now and again, they do crop up even now. And I see them, I think. Oh, well, that's someone from the shop. That's someone from Valentino and Rita's. Hm. So did you ever keep, um, hair clippings of of famous people? No. [00:56:30] And you know, no. And I'll tell you another thing, I. I regret that I used to get invites from them to go to their country homes and they'd say, Oh, you know, you can catch a train in Paddington and, um, go down to such and such, and you'll change there. And you there's a little train that goes on to so and so and we will send the man to collect you. What? You know, why don't you come down on a Saturday afternoon. You can stay Sunday evening and I I'll tell Mr Valentino you won't be back [00:57:00] on the Monday that you can start on the Tuesday and you can have a nice weekend away from London because don't forget, London was very polluted. And, um, I mean, the air was ghastly in those days, and your clothing got crying and everything, and they they knew I was from New Zealand and they felt he would really benefit from fresh air and country life. And you could tell they really meant it. I would think, Oh, my my mother was very angry with me when I told her years later. She said, What a lost opportunity [00:57:30] I used to think. Oh, no, I couldn't. What if I didn't know how to conduct myself at the table or or what if something awful happened? I broke something, and I just I'd always make an excuse. Say Well. Oh, thank you. You know Oh, it's very kind of you, but I'd never follow it up. I'd never follow it up and say, Well, actually, I'd love to come and see you, and it would have been a wonderful, wonderful experience and they would have really made a fuss of me. And, um, it's not often you get an invite [00:58:00] to the home of an aristocratic family in England, and that happened quite a few times. In fact, I seem to remember Lady B Low even offered and said to me that if you need somewhere to recoup, um, you know, we'd be happy to have you to our home. You know, things like that. It it gives you it gave you another insight. People who have real class don't have to try and show it. It's It's there. It's self evident just in the way they they are the air [00:58:30] about them. You can tell you're in the presence of another type of human being. They're dying out. Of course now, But I did say somewhere in England there still exists a similar class of people. Yes. So so were you when you went to Europe. Were you, uh, hairdressing there as well? Oh, yes, yes, yes. I. I went to Spain and immediately had to get a job. Hairdressing. I couldn't speak Spanish at all. Um, it was just what you pick up off songs, you know, via my darling [00:59:00] and a a, um, I had to learn real quick. And, um, of course, in Barcelona, everyone speaks Catalan, even though it was forbidden by by the government decree, Um, you literally could be imprisoned or shot for speaking Catalan in public. Um, and so all my friends were Catalan, and so I had to learn to understand that otherwise I missed out on everything. All the jokes and all the fun and all the stories. But for the the actual spoken [00:59:30] language, um, it was practical to learn, um, classic Spanish and, um, yes. And I had to learn very, very, very quickly. And you do when you're large dependent on it. Um, the first song I worked in was a cell which catered to mistresses of top government, local government officials. They were all, um, from, uh, Castile. They were non Catalan. Um, they all spoke there Castilian, Spanish, [01:00:00] and they were all very respectable. But they were mistresses. And, um, and wives sometimes of, um, government functionaries, functionaries in Barcelona local government, because there was no, um administration Catalan administration in those days, uh, Franco held that very much the centrist government, and that was very much held in the, um in the hands of military people and and people with whom the government was totally confident. [01:00:30] The, um, regime was it was getting on towards the end of its due date. And, um, like a lot of those sort of movements, they were fighting very hard to keep it alive. So they were actually getting tighter again and and being, um, actually nastier in a way to maintain, um, the hold on government, which, of course, Franco intended to pass over directly to the king, and the king would become the next dictator [01:01:00] of Spain. Uh, but he very wonderfully didn't, Um I think Franco really underestimated Juan Carlos. Yes. And and and again, when you're doing your hairdressing work, how different was it in Spain to say? Yes, that was a learning curve. Um, because Spanish women go for big hair and, um, to impress, um, but in a Latin way, um, and colour, [01:01:30] of course. Uh, the what was considered fashionable in Spain in those days was not what would have been considered fashionable in Anglo Saxon countries. So I had to learn another fashion expression, but, um, hairdressing was very, very important. All women, regardless of social stature, would get their hair done because men expected the wife to look good and to make the most of her self, you know? So very [01:02:00] elderly women, very elderly, had their hair dyed. I mean, right up to the last minute. They still had the hair dyed. And, um, of course, being blonde was a big thing. So you had to, you know, lots and lots of Spanish women wanted very blonde fair hair. Um, it was highly regarded. So, you know, we did a lot of blending work. Um, straightening and smoothing as well, you know, to take the kinks and the waves out of the hair. Um, the hairdressing salon didn't have an appointment system. [01:02:30] You literally just like here in a barbershop. You rocked on up and just waited to turn. So the gossiping and the talking and the laughing and the shrieking, um, was was it was incredible. Um, And you you saw all sides of every story while you were doing here? Yes, because just, you know, because everybody would be talking together. The person you were talking on would still be working on would be talking to the people who are waiting and and and, of course, they get very animated. I used to [01:03:00] think they were having arguments. I thought they were all screaming at each other. But it wasn't. It was just They were being exuberant and getting carried away with their stories, you know, hands going and facial expressions too, You know, I love them. I love the Spanish people, and they have such a wonderful, wonderful history. There's the the wonderful light of it. And there's also the terrible dark of it. Hm? Yes. And so what was it like [01:03:30] coming back to New Zealand? Because I didn't you come back, like in the early seventies? Yeah, I came back in, uh, 74. Franco was still alive, so he died after I got back. Um, that was culture shock. I really I I because I had left New Zealand as a 20 year old, and I came back sort of about 25 26 years old. Um, it was weird. It was my country, but it wasn't anymore. And everything had changed. Um, you know, [01:04:00] there was a different kind of people walking around on the streets racially. I'm talking about um, you know, there was a lot more, um, Maori in the cities a hell of a lot more, Uh, in Pacifica. Um, there seemed to be a lot more, um, foreigners around, Um, because Wellington had become very sophisticated, and it was lovely. Um, you know, coffee bars and restaurants and and lots and lots of pubs and bars. I loved it. It was really buzzing. [01:04:30] And as I think I told you, I came back to what was a free society. I had not been living in a free society. When you're living in it, you just go by the rules, and that's what you all you know. Um, but suddenly you came back. And, you know, we really do have something, something rather incredible here. And, you know, when we look back, this is pre the, um, homosexual law reform. Um, being a homosexual in Wellington, Was there no, big? Really. I mean, you ran into incidents [01:05:00] as like, I touched on previously with you. Um, but it was great. I mean, people in Spain were being hauled off gay people being hauled off to camps to be treated, and God knows what they did to them. when they got them there. Um, you know, people disappeared. They're still digging them up beside highways and things. It was a terrible time. We didn't know any of that was really going on. Well, we I think we sort of so, like any regime. You kind of you just keep your nose out of [01:05:30] it. Yes. And you go on. But yes. No, Wellington was great. And, um, there was a real sense of theatre and art in Wellington. Um, you know, Downstage Theatre. Um, Unity Theatre, the, um Wellington um, art society. Um, artists were having exhibitions because in Spain, you had to be very careful. If you're an artist, you know, everything had to be according to, you know, whereas here it was [01:06:00] astounding, and I was going to photographic exhibitions and artistic exhibitions. And suddenly I realised that being quite openly gay and dressing up to it was made quite a celebrity in those little environments. People were really all quite pleased. You came to the exhibition and they'd make sure they invited you again because they wanted a little bit of that difference at their exhibitions, you know? And I still know, Do know some of those artists Victoria G, Andre Franken and others from [01:06:30] those a lot of them, sadly and have deceased. But yes, it was great. A great time, Gareth. It really was. I belonged to the Film Society. Um and I found that I could go there, you know, wearing quite sort of out there clothes. I'm talking about male attire, but really out there and, um, knowing a blink, it was considered great, you know? Um, yes. As I said, Wellington had a really a real It was called the Queen City. [01:07:00] It was It was good to be gay in Wellington at that time. Yes, we take the bad with it. There's the dark side of everything, isn't there? But basically, it was a good place to be. Lots to do and lots of fun. Yes. And then you moved to hairdressing on a cruise ship. Well, that was much later. Gareth, that was I was in my late fifties, so I don't know. So I mean, when I came back in the seventies, I think I touched on it. I I went to work, [01:07:30] I was working as a barman, and we discussed that, um that that really is what I needed. In light of what I just told you, I really need to be zapped. I needed to be really hit in the face with, with the morality that was of the seventies and a Western free democracy. And, of course, we were mirroring everything that was going on in California out here, you know? And, um, the whole drug culture thing was very much coming in, of course, in the seventies. And, of course, sexual [01:08:00] liberation. Um, yes. After that, I mean, I owned Salon and for many, many years, as I said, I, um, worked as part of a sales team as a product usage educator. Um, for a while, three years. And then I did tutoring, uh, at, uh, Wellington Institute of Technology for 12 years. And then I was at the end of that, and I thought, What can I do That's totally different. And I thought, Well, all I know is hairdressing. So [01:08:30] I went online, and I saw that there were jobs on cruise ships offering for hairdressers. Everybody who I told about it, um who was in hairdressing and said, Oh, they want young people. No, they didn't. And because as I said when I got there and produced the Lady Grandy recommendation in Valentino and Rita, Um uh, resume on my work? Um, they they were very keen to have me. And that was really great, because suddenly [01:09:00] a it gave me the opportunity to be back in the northern hemisphere again where I thought I'd never be ever again, um, to be able to walk the streets of London prior to my first embarkation, and then also to revisit Spain after 35 years to go back to a place which now is, uh, a constitutional monarchy along the lines of what we've got here in New Zealand. Absolute liberty, Um, in incredible, really celebrating that liberty. Um, [01:09:30] but cruise ships was great. A whole different type of conversation with a whole different range of people that were totally different from where I'd been in the I used to think sometimes I'd be sailing along, and at night you'd go up on the deck when the passengers by now would have settled down and you could walk the deck and look out and I'd be looking out. You see little islands in the Caribbean going by and little lights glinting and looking like like a When you look across [01:10:00] at, you know, that sort of thing. And I'd think about that. I mean, we passed that island where it was next to volcano, and you could see it. The lava glowing up in the up in the sky above And you realise, Oh, that must be that island. They had to evacuate it. But I was thinking, You're a long way from now, John. It was great. It was a good feeling. I would have continued more years. But I got to age 61 and it really I wanted to come [01:10:30] back on shore. I wanted to garden again. I love gardening. I wanted to be able to drive a car. All those things, you know, and for me ship life. Um, you know, I alluded to it earlier. I make sailing. I took to go to England in 1967. Um, the people that work on the cruise ships are very high standard of of expectation. You know, the service must be absolutely go beyond, um, the passenger expectation. [01:11:00] So when they play hard, they play hard, and it's a very peculiarly heterosexual environment. The crew is mainly heterosexuals. I people who said to me, Oh, gosh, you're gonna have a ball. It's gonna be so gay. Might have been in the fifties and sixties with the Dominion monarch and the rest of them. Not anymore. It's very much a heterosexual, um, sort of career working on cruise ships, and it suits them well. And, of course, there's a huge turnover of staff [01:11:30] all the time. People's contracts would end in one port, and a new lot of people would come on to take their places. Three days later, you call into another port, someone else had to lot would have to disembark, and another lot would come on. So there was new faces all the time in the crew bar. And you can imagine the romances and everything else that was going on because I was like, Granddad, I used to be the shoulder to cry on. Um and, uh, you know, be like the the parent figure. Um, [01:12:00] there was a few gay guys. Um, and I sprung a couple of very discreet gay women. Um, yeah, but, um and I mean, some of the passengers were obviously gay, especially on the elite one, I was on with. There was only about 400 passengers. We would get groups of gay men coming on together who would be, um, they'd obviously be pals back in San Francisco or Sydney or wherever they were from. [01:12:30] And they would, um, be all great mates. And they decide, Let's go all and have a cruise together sometimes. Gareth, they were marvellous fun. They were there to have a good time. Other times you'd get a group and demanding and all making scenes in the spa about the towels weren't folded properly, or my light bulb wasn't working or, um, something wasn't. You know, all the flowers weren't fresh, really making scenes. [01:13:00] And I said to my spa manager, who was a delightful Hungarian man and really lovely looking and a very nice person. I said, they're doing this to compile a whole of things to talk about at the next dinner parties when they get back to wherever they're from. I said there and I showed them how sort of thing you know, But, um, yes, it it it was a It was a very good insight, um, into that world as well into the gay world as well. Yes. Uh, [01:13:30] you know, you you saw gay men that, um, in some of these groups who were people that were extremely wealthy in their own right, and they knew it. Um, but they made it through the arts or through industry. They just been really clever, but also happened to be gay. The gayner did not define them. The defining was the the beautiful homes and their lifestyles and their friends. Um, you know. And, uh, so it was an eye opener. Um, and I realised that, you know, I did My little life [01:14:00] passed me by back in New Zealand, but I don't regret it. Oh, you always have a few little things, but yeah, it was good. So what do you think? On reflection Now, what do you think hairdressing has given you? Hairdressing for me? Personally, um, has been a wonderful vehicle. It's take me around the world. It, uh it's given me a wonderful career. It hasn't been for me [01:14:30] an extremely lucrative career. Um, I did have a very successful business. However, the more successful it is and the greater the turnover, the more staff products lighting, heating, hot water, you need to cope with it. Profitability not to be confused with cash flow. Um, but it provides us with a good lifestyle because that cash flow was, you know, there. But at the end of it, you don't [01:15:00] walk away with being able to buy the beautiful home necessarily. And not like, As I said earlier with my previous employers when I was young, it has changed. Hairdressing has changed. I think hairdressing is a calling. If you If you don't have artistic flair, don't delude yourself. Hairdressing is not for you. A monkey can cut here. Um, do you want to be a monkey? But to sculpt a head of hair with scissors [01:15:30] and razors and clippers, um, to be able to create from a head of hair, a beautiful work of art in a in a beautiful hair design and a and a gorgeous, up to and elegant style that takes a special artistic flair and a and a love that art is not going to be on that wall lasting forever. She's gonna wash it all out, or it's gonna grow. And it's gone. Unless there's beautiful photos of it, [01:16:00] somewhere of her. With it. No I do regret I didn't take more photos of some of my work. I know there are photos here in Wellington of my work going back 2030 years and people's family albums, but they probably don't know who did that hair do. Um, because I was a good hairdresser. I still am. And I was well sought after for, um, those more, um, extravagant hairdos of that period. You know, the updos, as we call them, long hair swept up on top and with all [01:16:30] the detail work, Um, now, hairdressers, uh, I would recommend it to someone who wants to do something very artistic and creative and who loves people. You must love humanity. You've got to be able to handle people and modify your personality. According to this, as I was to earlier working on the Aristocrats and the nobility. But then, if you're working on the lady who runs the little Greek fish and chip shop or the little lady [01:17:00] that just has house cleaning, they're all customers. They're all clients, and you adapt. You adapt your personal. You modify your personality so they feel at ease so they can open up to you and not feel intimidated by you and feel that they can trust you with their hair or that you will do the best for them. Some of them don't even know what they want. They're looking to you for that, you know? So no hairdressing, um, is, uh, is is wonderful. And I think now, with the more session stylists, [01:17:30] um, you know that, um, Derek and Michael Beal working in unison with clothing, makeup, uh, film, um, magazines, Uh, it It's wonderful. It's always been been done. But it's it's phenomenal now because media is everything now and those boys are riding the crest of the wave now and all power to them all power to them. It's been wonderful to [01:18:00] see how Derek, um you know, he's I think he's originally just from the hut. Um, but how? He has really made a wonderful career and has achieved both financially but artistically and still is and still is and so respected and so well regarded. I met him when he was really young. I saw him in a pub. He was just with a couple of friends. He's very shy, and I So I flounced over to his table and I said, Oh, hello, I said, I believe you're doing hairdressing and said Yes, [01:18:30] I said, I believe that you should go to Paris and he said, Oh, do you think so? I said, Oh, I believe you've got it He'd been one win winning competitions and I'd seen his work and I thought, if he got in those days, it took about 30 years ago. Now, Um, I thought, if you could get something like Paris and Understudy to one of the great hairdressers of those days, but he didn't. But he is, however more he's more New York than he is Paris. He is. He's great. Yeah, so [01:19:00] and I I think that he still has a very viable career. Um, and there's still huge money to be made in it. You know, I've just mentioned, but I've never been one of those. And I've, um I've just been a hairdresser, and I've been a hair stylist. Hair designer? Yes. Happy to work for a wage, happy to work with people. And I just love it. And I would hope to continue it for many years to come. And I'm aged 70 now. I'd still I'd still like to be doing a bit of hairdressing [01:19:30] in 10 years time If people want me. If there's a demand for my work, why not? Hm?

IRN: 1111
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TITLE: International AIDS Candlelight Memorial (2017)
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VOICES: Chanel Hati; Grant Robertson; Jason Myers; Kay Jones; Kay'la Riarn; Kjel Griffiths; Rev Roger Pym; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; AIDS Support Network; Andrew Little; Aotearoa New Zealand; Big Gay Out (Auckland); Bill English; Body Positive; CD4 count; CD4 threshold; Candlelight Memorials; Chanel Hati; Chrissy Witoko; Ending HIV (campaign); Governor-General of New Zealand; Grant Robertson; Green Party; HIV / AIDS; HIV education; HIV stigma; Jason Myers; Kay Jones; Kay'la Riarn; Kjel Griffiths; Malaysia; Manatū Hauora Ministry of Health; Metiria Turei; Ministry of Social Development; Māori; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; New Zealand Labour Party; Patsy Reddy; Pharmaceutical Management Agency (Pharmac); PrEP (Pre-Exposure Prophylaxis); Rev Roger Pym; Sister Paula Brettkelly; Tararua Tramping Club; Tīwhanawhana; Unitarian church; Vaughan Meneses; Wellington; Work and Income (WINZ); alcohol; anal sex; bisexual; church; coming out; community; community support; discrimination; friends; funding; gay; health; health care; heterosexual; honour-shame culture; hospital; loss; love; parents; remembrance; safe sex; self hate; self loathing; sex work; stigma; stole; support; testing; trans; transgender; trench foot; trench mouth; whakawahine; women; youth
DATE: 21 May 2017
YEAR: 2017
LOCATION: Tararua Tramping Club, 4 Moncrieff Street, Mount Victoria, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Welcome this afternoon to the AIDS candlelight memorial ceremony. My name is Roger. I'm a member of body positive, and I'm a staff member in Auckland. I'm also a Unitarian church minister. And just before I give you the notices about, um, where the toilets are, I'd like to read part of a statement from the Unitarian Church. Um, because I've been, um, accosted by two people who've left [00:00:30] because of my presence. So, um, I have as much right to be here as any of you do. This was made in 1989 by the Unitarian Universalist Assembly in America because the member congregations of the Unitarian Universal Association have affirmed and covenant to promote the inherent worth and dignity of every person and justice, equity and compassion in human relations. [00:01:00] Because we reject the fear and loathing of the human body and sexuality instilled by some religious traditions, and we reject the notion of disease as divine punishment or natural retribution for moral failure. We resolve that health care must be for all The statement called upon individual Unitarians and member congregations [00:01:30] and affiliated organisations and on the religious community at large to work with compassion and imagination to care for people living with HIV. So there may be some religions who have blood on their hands. Um, the Unitarian church doesn't have blood on its hands. So I'm here as a person living with HIV, an ordained minister of a Unitarian church [00:02:00] and a staff member of body positive. Yeah. So I was diagnosed in 2005. Um, and I've I think this is the third time I've come to Wellington. So also, you'll notice in your service sheet or your ceremony sheet. Sorry, I shouldn't use a religious word. Um, at the back of the room, there is a memory book. The tree has been turned into a memory book. So we you see tree [00:02:30] where you're going to write your little things on a tree, And I think it's, um and the yes wishing tree The wishing tree has become a wishing book. So made by, uh, Gerard out of a a set of drawers. I don't know what he had in the drawers before he made it, but it's a beautiful book, so I think that's all I needed to say. So now we have the wonderful [00:03:00] our group to sing for us of [00:03:30] [00:04:00] [00:04:30] [00:05:00] and now we have the reading from political parties. Um, is there I mean, we've got a real politician here, so I suppose we should start with you, Grant. Um uh, I'll start by reading the the message [00:05:30] that I've got in front of me and then I might say one or two other brief things after that message to the International AIDS Candlelight Memorial 21st of May 2017 from the leader of the Labour Party, Andrew Little to all who are gathered together today for the 2017 International AIDS Candlelight Memorial. I send my support and to body positive positive women, the New Zealand AIDS Foundation and all those who helped organise these events and undertake the important work on HIV and a I SI. Thank you. [00:06:00] Each year on this occasion, my mind turns to the people of my generation who were young men and women As the world became aware of AIDS and who did not survive into their middle age as I have, I mourned for them and I think of their friends and families who saw them die from a disease. We did not fully understand events like this and symbols like the quilts that have been made around the world are our public to memorial to what are also deeply felt. Private losses [00:06:30] to those friends and family. Please know that your loved ones are remembered As the decades have passed, we have learned far more about HIV and A I DS. But still there is so much more to do. The theme of this year's international AIDS Candlelight Memorial is ending AIDS together around the world. 33 million people are living with HIV today through international solidarity, access to medicines, education and reducing stigma. We can rid the world of HIV and [00:07:00] A I DS here at home. The New Zealand AIDS Foundation have launched the ending HIV campaign. I was proud to sign the New Zealand Labour Party up to that campaign at the big day out in February. This is an ambitious campaign to end transmission of HIV by 2025. We can do this together with a combination of safe sex education and practise early and regular testing and access to medicines including prep. We can stop the transmissions, but it's a big ask and one [00:07:30] that all of us have to support with long term dedication and commitment. You have that from me and the Labour Party. I also want to acknowledge tonight those who are living with HIV living with a chronic illness is tough, but the more so with HIV, there is still significant stigma attached to positive people. We can only break that down by talking and listening. As one positive person has said, you can live with the virus, but the stigma will kill you emotionally. I encourage [00:08:00] you to talk about HIV. That's the only way we can fight the stigma. So to all those living with HIV, I acknowledge you your courage and I give you my support. So all of us on this international AIDS candlelight Memorial Day join together and say for the sake of all of those who have gone before, we can end HIV and AIDS together. Andrew Little, leader of the Labour Party. That's Andrew's um, message to you today. Jo may or may not have [00:08:30] had something to do with writing. I just wanted to say a couple of things, Ron, um, and Leslie asked me to to say a couple of things today and I won't speak for too long because there are a number of other other people to speak today. But I was reflecting, uh that when I came out to my mother to nearly 26 years ago, something like that. The very first words she said to me and she's a lovely and understanding and supportive woman were don't get AIDS. [00:09:00] And I think at that time in the late eighties, early nineties, that was the message that a lot of young men coming out would have got from their parents. And I think now about the stigma that was attached then and now to HIV and AIDS. And there was a, uh there's a series of stories on the New Zealand AIDS Foundation website about people living with HIV, and one of the one of the people in there talks about dusting off the cob webs of 30 years of stigma. [00:09:30] And I think the time is now right to do that. We never forget those people who lost their lives, the people who were our heroes, who were our friends, who were the people who faced an incredible disease at a time when we didn't understand it. We never forget them. We mourn their loss, and we remember them every day. But we also live today. We live today in a world where, as as [00:10:00] it was said in Andrew's note, the stigma might kill more than the virus. So let's make the thing that we take away as we stand here in in 2017 that we must end the stigma. We must say that living with HIV is a chronic illness. It's something that requires management support, access to resources. But it's also a life, a good life, a life that we can support. So let's get rid of the stigma. After 30 years, [00:10:30] celebrate the community that we are today support positive people who are all around us and remember those who've gone before. And now we have a message to be, um, from the Governor General to be read to us today. This is a message for the AIDS Candlelight Memorial 2017 from the right, Honourable Dame Patsy Whitty, Governor general of [00:11:00] New Zealand, as governor general and patron of the AIDS Foundation, I send my best wishes to everyone taking part in the AIDS candlelight memorial this year. It is important to take this time to pause and honour loved ones, friends and colleagues, the people who died before their time and to show solidarity with those who are living with HIV. We can be thankful that medical treatments are now widely available in New Zealand, but we also know that complacency [00:11:30] is not an option. I commend the vital work undertaken by the AIDS Foundation to raise awareness about risky practises and to provide support wherever and whenever it is needed. Today, as you express solidarity with people at similar memorial gatherings around the world, it will be in the hope that people in those countries who countries who are living with HIV will receive the support and assistance that they need, whatever their circumstances, [00:12:00] we have two left, one from the, um the Green Party and one from the national Party. So whoever gets up here first can read it first. I'm not showing my political leanings there either. Uh, my name is I am also a man living with HIV, and, um, I'm going to be reading a message from [00:12:30] today from the greens and a bit like Grant. My mum also told me not to get AIDS. Oops, um, so to everyone attending the international AIDS can memorial. This memorial provides every year a special opportunity to pause, reflect and remember those we have lost to HIV and AIDS. The Green Party joins with you in this community act of collective remembrance. The last few years have unfortunately seen a rise of people being diagnosed with HIV AIDS. [00:13:00] We still desperately need health promotion work happening to ensure that people know the risks they faced. We must remain vigilant to HIV and AIDS in the hope that people do not have to continue suffering unnecessarily as treatments improve and people's quality of life continues to improve. Let us not forget the many talented and beautiful people we have lost too soon to this pandemic. I wish to acknowledge all of those that have stood by their friends and often painful journeys. It can be a long and lonely path. [00:13:30] In a many people living with HIV and AIDS have been gay or bisexual men who have faced the double jeopardy of prejudice associated with their illness and sexual orientation. The Green Party is proud to have always taken a strong stand against such prejudice and to have played a role in making things better, We will be continuing this needed work. We remain committed to working towards a world without prejudice and seeing that the people get the medical and social support that HIV and AIDS people have required a loving [00:14:00] memory of those taken too soon. Co-leader of the Green Party like I, I I'm just like to read out a, uh a letter from the right Honourable Bill English uh, Prime Minister of New Zealand message to the uh 2017 International AIDS Candlelight Memorial Service. Today we pay tribute to those New Zealanders who have died from HIV and AIDS at the annual Candlelight Memorial Service. [00:14:30] I would like to offer my condolences to those who have lost their loved ones to the disease. I know some of you here tonight will be living with the disease and want to know that there's hope. This year's theme for the memorial ending HIV together aligns with NZ aids Foundation aspiration to make New Zealand HIV free. The government supports this aim and funds effective targeted prevention programmes to make [00:15:00] this a reality as part of the budget for 2017 and building on last year's record investment we invest. We're increasing pharma budget by another $60 million providing more New Zealanders with access to new medicines. Pharmac has begun begun consulting on a on a suite of anti-infective, including early access to four HIV antri vials benefiting [00:15:30] around 3000 New Zealanders. As prime Minister, I acknowledge the positive contribution body positive New Zealand makes to raising awareness in New Zealand and the work that they do for New Zealanders with HIV and AIDS. Thank you again for your good work. Uh, right. Honourable Bill English Thanks you. And now, Cal. Cal, would you like to [00:16:00] come up and share some of your story with us? Like Roger says, My name's Cal. I've been living with HIV for 13 years, 10 of which were not much fun. But the last three I've been helped to a healthier, happier place where I've found true friends and loved ones and guides, many of whom I see here today. Um, [00:16:30] I know it's all been said earlier, but a lot has changed since our people were struggling and dying of HIV and AIDS. For some of us, it seems not so long ago and I'm grateful for your experience and and I respect your resilience for those like me. It seemed so long ago so far removed from our present time where there was no news of AIDS in our sheltered land. [00:17:00] But it is still a major life event for those of us who are infected. I know a lot of people don't like that word. Um, and and it's a killer for an unlucky few of us in New Zealand. You know, some of us, some of our Kiwi women who have lived without risk and are therefore not at risk, are too often not tested until they are sick. And, uh hm, [00:17:30] Yeah, and we have lost some some women, of course. As someone who has been a gay man and has transitioned and being a sex worker, I was certainly at risk. Um, when I was diagnosed seven years ago, I was ignorant of the reality our forebearers fought for. I was, um, ignorant of the combination therapy that can now reverse the effects of [00:18:00] HIV and the reality that we who are positive and aware of our health needs stand to live as long, if not longer, than those who choose to be ignorant. of the costs of modern food and modern lifestyles. Um, and it was mentioned earlier that I sort of jumped the gun a bit and say the latest factors that we who are stably medicated are not [00:18:30] infectious. We can't pass on HIV and, you know, and it's good for me to know that I no longer have what I termed as poisonous blood. We we are aware of our body's needs, you know? Therefore, we can live long, productive lives. But my ignorance at the point of diagnosis led me to disbelieve the specialists. My self loathing of my [00:19:00] dress choice. And, um, my sexual predilection led me to believe that I was cursed and I was doomed and I was gonna die. I felt I deserved the fate that was stealing my energy, wasting my muscles and corroding my skin. As the early effects of HIV became apparent, I began to give up on life, and I began to [00:19:30] drink a lot more and eat a lot less and, you know, smoke too much as well. But in hindsight, I got a taste of what it was like for our honoured dead. You know, um, mine was a bit psychosomatic. It wasn't actually real, but but I withered and disappeared. But those days of letting H I affect the victim before [00:20:00] treatment are now over. Uh, no. Others need to fade until their CD four. their CD four count reaches 300 like minded. Um, now, medical intervention. Well, hopefully pharmac will implement immediate medical intervention so no others will get sick and suffer the guilt and shame of looking like they have AIDS. You know, I lost. [00:20:30] I lost 13 kg. Um, I had trench mouth. I had trench foot. Um, and all my fillings fell out. So I did have little, little, little, um you know, nothing like what the people who came before us had, you know, just but still, to me, it was a big thing. But in reality, due to HIV, [00:21:00] I have learned to survive. And I have grown to to thrive through the wisdom hard, hard learned by our forebearers. I have become stronger than I was as a negative person. Through the support of our HIV networks, I have overcome my self hatred and destruction. I have become open about what was my killer secret. A secret that I kept from my family for five years. [00:21:30] I kept from everybody, my friends, family and all. So here I am, standing up publicly to say HIV is still here. Our rates of infection are still high, and the ignorance of the many is still creating stigma for the brave few of us who love our people enough to stand up and be HIV positive. So now, instead of hiding in the dark, away from memories [00:22:00] from public scrutiny and the judgement of my peers, I'm standing up to the stigma and discrimination that has lent AIDS and HIV aids the hidden status that it has now to creep once more among our people. I'm no longer the six sheep hiding in the shadows. I'm a proud woman in sharing my light, [00:22:30] loving my people, laughing and living with my friends, living the life I almost gave up on to the fullest of all my heart being strong for those who come after us and honouring those who came before us. Thank you all for listening. [00:23:00] Thank you very much. I just like I was a bit thrown at the beginning because I had to do that long thing up from the Unitarian Church. But I just wanted to tell you some of you know, the story about the style a few years ago, um, one of our members in, um, Auckland was dying. And, um, I journeyed with him through that that, um, process. And, um, he liked a bit of bling. So, um, I had this rather boring looking style that no bling [00:23:30] on it, and within a week, it had bling on it. So I was told I had to wear it at every HIV funeral or memorial. So that's another reason why I'm dressed up in church gown. So I'm sorry. I feel sorry for the people that left, but that's their choice anyway. Now, um, it's, um, time to ask Jason Myers to come and talk to us. [00:24:00] Uh, and thank you, K. That's certainly a humbling act to follow. Uh, my name is Jason Myers, and I'm the executive director of the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. Uh, and it's my privilege and pleasure to be with you here in Wellington today. Uh, as the world gathers, uh, for what, uh is is an enduring event, the international AIDS Candlelight memorial, Uh, as an act of [00:24:30] global solidarity. Uh, it's It's a time for us to remember those gone before a time for us to break down barriers of stigma and a time, uh, to look forward with hope the world has committed to ending the AIDS epidemic by 2030 the theme for this year's memorial, uh, is fittingly ending AIDS together. The extraordinary accomplishments of the last 15 years, both in increasing access to HIV treatments and [00:25:00] reducing AIDS mortality in the developing world, has inspired a real global confidence that the idea of ending AIDS together is a realistic one agreeing on and then resourcing the how, uh is now the challenge, of course, and the next urgent step that must be taken. We in Aotearoa New Zealand have a special and unique opportunity to lead the way. Over more than three decades, this country was the first [00:25:30] to see a decline in AIDS deaths in the world and through over 30 years of health promotion, work and supporting people living with HIV, we have managed to maintain one of the lowest HIV prevalence rates in the world Today. The New Zealand epidemic is comparatively small and concentrated, and it is in this context that the potential to reduce, halt, reverse and ultimately end new transmissions [00:26:00] is a real possibility. At the same time, however, HIV is stubbornly evading control. Annual diagnoses have been steadily rising for five years, and 2015 saw the highest number of new infections recorded since records began. Sadly, the 2016 data, due to be released in just a couple of weeks, shows that rising trend continuing. I cannot emphasise [00:26:30] enough that if there was ever a time in this country's response to HIV for renewed commitment at the highest level and for urgent action, it is now. The opportunity is the is that the world of HIV prevention has been through nothing short of a revolution. Scientific breakthroughs have shown that treatment based prevention can complement existing condom promotion efforts to drive down and [00:27:00] ultimately end new HIV infection. We know, for example, that the risk of serious illness or death is almost 66% lower for those people who start treatment immediately upon diagnosis than for whom treatment is delayed. We also know that if people living with HIV can access medication, achieve and maintain an undetectable viral load, then the risk of them transmitting HIV [00:27:30] through sex is removed. It is for this reason that pharmac must remove the current threshold for treatment access three years later than they should have. It is current. It is contrary to all WHO recommendations. And there are 34 countries in the developed world who already offer immediate access to HIV treatment. We should all welcome currents uh, pharmac current consultation and I encourage [00:28:00] all of you to engage in that process before the consultation closes this coming Friday. We also know that pre exposure prophylaxis the use of an HIV medication by HIV negative people in order to reduce their risk of HIV infection is extremely effective at preventing HIV and would have a significant impact on HIV incidents in this country if it was made available to those who need it. [00:28:30] Prep programmes are already bringing success in England, Australia and the United States and New Zealand must urgently act to make it accessible to those at highest risk of HIV. Of course, there is much to lose in the context of treatment based prevention. We must continue to promote condom use as the most effective HIV and ST I prevention tool at a population level for treatment as prevention To be effective, [00:29:00] we must also significantly increase the level of HIV testing for those most at risk finding the estimated 600 people living with HIV and a who don't know it, linking them to care and supporting them. The 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development and Agenda, which this country is required to report progress against, is underpinned by the values of inclusion, equity and social justice. If, [00:29:30] as a sector in A, we can live these values, if we can secure urgent and renewed high level government commitment, if we can inspire, mobilise and work alongside key impacted communities if we can collaborate through innovative and progressive cross sector initiatives. If we can successfully challenge and remove HIV stigma and discrimination and provide better support to people living with HIV, [00:30:00] then we can end HIV transmission. In this country, there is much to be done, but for today, let us collectively honour celebrate love and remember those people who came before us as we leave here this afternoon, let it be our commitment to them that we will do everything we can to end AIDS together [00:30:30] and Now we're going to hear from two young two young people's perspective about, um, being gay and what they've learned about HIV A. I DS in New Zealand, and, um, there's two people going to read that isn't there. My name is Jacob. I was born in God 20 years ago. My life was turned up [00:31:00] down when I slept with an older man in a public toilet when I was 17. About six months later, I was told by a friend that this man died from HIV complication. I did not know where to turn. I went to the doctor and he ran a series. After a six month period for HIV and other sexual [00:31:30] transmitted diseases for a few months, I was angry that this man did not share his status even if he was on medication and may have been undetectable. There is always a chance in saying that I would still have had safe sex with this man. I made three calls to the AIDS Foundation line for support and information, and [00:32:00] two days later I received a return call that last four minutes and two weeks for pamphlets. Even today, I feel betrayed that even in our school system and country towns. Information is not readily available. People may say use the Internet, but 50% of the information is false or out of debt. Thank you for this opportunity [00:32:30] to share part of my story. Hello, everyone. My name is Nicholas. So I'm reading this on behalf of someone from Malaysia. So I am a 17 years old boy from Malaysia. I've known about HIV because I first knew that sex can cause several kinds of diseases. As I knew more about sexual related diseases, I eventually started hearing [00:33:00] about HIV, and that and that is common with gay and bi men. HIV is transmitted by NO sex, and I believe the reason why this happens is because a lot of people are desperate for an O sex, especially without a condom. Yeah, I know that they would like to feel each other's body body parts without a condom without knowing the risks for me. I'm always careful [00:33:30] who I have sex with and what type of sex will we perform? If everyone can do this, it will significantly reduce the number of HIV records in the future. Thank you. There's now an opportunity for anyone who'd like to share some words to come up the front and, um, share with us. Um, most of you know me. My name is Kayla. Um, [00:34:00] this is the first time I've returned to Canada for many, many years because I just got to overwhelmed for my friends part in the world. Um, most of us these days think our struggle is stronger, hurts more cuts deeper, does not do anything in comparison to what our friends went through or continue to go through. [00:34:30] Um, while I've been an avid supporter of safe sex, um, information networks, everything. For the last 30 years, I've been a supporter of the AIDS Foundation and, of course, the New Zealand prostitutes collective. Um, I just find it very difficult. What people do not actually support those living with the virus. It's all well and true to say, we support [00:35:00] to stop a I DS HIV. But what about supporting the people who are living with it? I'm not just saying words. Uh, we support you. How about a bit of Yeah, we'll we'll build this. We'll fundraise for you to make your life a little bit easier in these last days or whatever you might have. First of all, I want to excuse my voice. I'm very, um I haven't spoken in years at [00:35:30] one of these gatherings. It just brings up so many emotions. When they played the, um, list of names every second or third person on that list, I knew. Sorry, but, I mean, I've been around it for over 40 years and I had [00:36:00] a brother. His name was Garth. He worked in the, um, street area. Must be an idea. OK, One of the ladies who passed away many years ago, Um, my brother worked for her. He lived in her home. He passed away from lymphatic cancer. That was when the virus was becoming known as being [00:36:30] HIV A I DS I knew enough to know the difference. I saw the Asian. Yeah, my brother to me because I knew his lifestyle, who he came in contact with. And it wasn't. It was unprotected, unsafe sex. OK, but in the vicinity where he was living. And things like that is very possible [00:37:00] that it may have been HIV. He showed signs the physical sites that we've come to know today, but unfortunately, but in those days it was. He can't He can't have that. He's heterosexual. He can't have that. That kind of stigma has changed because no one's exempt from that. You know, I sometimes feel I go through a similar situation [00:37:30] as those living with HIV aids. But I'm not that lucky to have, um, suffer so much. I can suffer a lot of a lot of things from a lot of people. Intolerance, discrimination, segregation. I mean, what have I got going for me? I'm a hard cast. I'm 6 ft three tall. I'm a transsexual. I got a loud mouth. [00:38:00] Yeah, And who do you think would like to discriminate discriminate against people like me rather than a gay person or a lesbian person? Ministry of Health, Government departments, Working income, social felt everywhere. Hospitals? I went to hospital years ago. I was choking eight people stood around me and watched me choke. My son, who is also trained, stood there and had [00:38:30] to physically push a doctor to get my get attention to help me. Since then, I've suffered like th problems and that. But I mean, that's nothing compared to what? A person who's living with HIV. These days goes through what goes through their mind constantly. It's not like Oh, we have. We'll stop and have a coffee and a cigarette and take a break from this. They can't do that. Sorry. So [00:39:00] sorry for rambling on, But, um, I'd like to give a big shout out to all of those unrecognised people who have passed on with HIV. Those are the indigenous Maori transsexuals. What have you We have contributed to the whole community all of these years, and it's to a degree. It's feeling a little bit stigmatised. It needs to be brought to the forefront. It's not one particular group. It's all [00:39:30] people who have the virus. It's not because you might have the virus, but you're in that category and we are supporting this one. No, if anyone has it or slim with it, you support the whole lot. That's the basis of a community that comes together to support. It's well and true. It's all well and good that you can speak about your support. It's your actions that prove your man. Thank you very much. [00:40:00] So to all of you that are gathered here today to, uh, celebrate and remember those [00:40:30] that have departed into the night. Um, first of all, I just want to say that um um I wrote this last last year. Um, when you asked if somebody had something to say, I was going to write something, but I didn't have anything because I didn't write anything. So I thought this year I'm gonna write something to to say so This is something that I wrote in honour of, um all our friends [00:41:00] that have passed away OK, today you have called my name and in spirit here I am I'm one of many and a sea of stars rekindle my spirit with the words of remembrance that I may be But for a moment [00:41:30] present in the minds of those that I once knew then set me free Let me fly to the great beyond Until I am once again call to mind Let me return refreshed and ever more youthful Then the last time you call my name Put the buns of French out May we never forget [00:42:00] In the name of love Let us always remember My name is Kay Jones and I'm a member of the local Unitarian group Like Roger is here I'm also a member of Wellington's bisexual community, which, as many people would know, have faced a lot [00:42:30] of stigma in relation to being labelled as the way that the virus will get into the heterosexual community. But more than that, the reason I'm here today is because I'm a third generation Wellington and with a family of we've always helped in our families with people who've been unwell and who even counted viruses sickness as community issues. So back in the eighties, when HIV and Virus, the HIV virus, was [00:43:00] known in Wellington, one of the things that I did because my friends were sick was I joined the AIDS Foundation's Volunteers team. This was before it was called AIDS Foundation. So in those days there was not enough people but still people who wanted to help. Now, some of you in the room will remember sister Paula Brett Kelly, who was again a member of faith and who looked after so many people and became such a part of the community and over at the time, [00:43:30] yes, there were names that, like Kayla, said, I didn't know all of those people, but there are names there that I did know and others who weren't on the list, who were friends who were sick and who lived with it. I've got friends now who are living healthy lives with the virus, and I think that's great. But I'd certainly echo the calls. We've got to end the stigma. I mean, if people could be openly sharing and getting the support they need and if there was an increase in support, not the cuts like we're currently facing from, you [00:44:00] know, the AIDS Foundation have had its funding cut from government. People think the virus is gone, it isn't. But at the same time, the only way we're actually gonna make sure that everybody is healthy into the future is to keep on spreading the messages. Because there are still young people today getting infected, not knowing what the risks are and not knowing that. Oh, yeah, it's cool as medicine. Yeah, but it doesn't mean that people have as healthy a life as they could do if they didn't have to face the the illness issues [00:44:30] of people today who are, I don't know, find that they're diabetic. All the doctors sort of say, Oh, well, if you do this, you can sort of overcome the illness. You can't overcome HIV Not yet. And it may be some years before there's actually a cure for it. But in the meantime, sharing the information is something that I'm sure everybody in this does that sharing. But I'm just sort of reiterating that it's a good thing to be doing. And it's not just about people who are gay and the whole gay disease thing. Anybody can get sick. [00:45:00] And everybody should be OK about saying I'm sick. I need support. Thank you. Any others, there'll be plenty of time over. Um, some, uh um, refreshments. Following this. I'd like to remember a friend of mine who, um, she was diagnosed early on in the, um, HIV [00:45:30] virus, and she was pregnant with twins at the time. Um, those twins were terminated. Thankfully, these days, babies can be born without HIV, so I think that's something that we can be grateful for, but I just want to sort of say a heads up for Sophie. Well, I think that brings us to the end of our ceremony, [00:46:00] and I'd like to encourage you all to go forth from here and the strength that you have gathered from this gathering and the strength of universal love, whether that be God for you or whether it be a tree for you, go forth from here in strength and courage and make a change in the world. Amen.

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TITLE: IDAHOBIT 2017
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VOICES: Bella Simpson; Elizabeth Kerekere; George Coulton; Grant Robertson; Jack Byrne; Jan Logie; Jem Traylen; Kevin Haunui; Louisa Wall; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Moana Eruera; Nicola Willis; Peter Dunne; Richard Tankersley; Tabby Besley; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; 2010s; Allyson Hamblett; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bella Simpson; Bill of Rights Act (1990); Chris Bishop; Chris Carter; Cynthia Brophy; Declaration of Independence; Department of Corrections; District Health Board (DHB); Education Review Office (ERO); Elizabeth Kerekere; Ending HIV (campaign); Evolve Wellington Youth Service; Family court; Gender Identity, Gender Expression and Sex Characteristics Act (2015, Malta); George Coulton; Grant Robertson; Green Party; HIV / AIDS; He Tohu (National Library exhibition); Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Human Rights Act (1993); Human Rights Commission; ILGA World; InsideOUT Kōaro; International Day Against Homophobia, Biphobia, Transphobia and Intersexphobia (IDAHOIBT - 17 May); Intersex Trust Aotearoa New Zealand (ITANZ); Intersex roundtable; Invercargill; Ireland; Jack Byrne; Jan Logie; Jem Traylen; Jillian Chrisp; Jonathan Coleman; Jonathan Sinclair; Kevin Hague; Kevin Haunui; Kyle Stutter; Louisa Wall; Male Survivors of Sexual Assault Trust (MOSAIC); Malta; Manatū Hauora Ministry of Health; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Marama Fox; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Member of Parliament; Moana Eruera; National Party; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand Labour Party; Ngāti Toa Rangatira; Nicola Willis; Nikki Kaye; Parliament buildings; Pastor Martin Niemoller; Paul Foster-Bell; Peter Dunne; Pink Shirt Day; PrEP (Pre-Exposure Prophylaxis); Rainbow NZ Parliamentary Network; Rainbow Wellington; Rainbow Youth; Rainbow flag; Rangimarie Turuki Rose Pere; Richard Tankersley; Scotland; Shift hui; Shift hui (2017); Social Policy Evaluation and Research Unit (Superu); Statistics New Zealand; Tabby Besley; Te Paati Māori; Te Ururoa Flavell; Tiriti o Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi; To Be Who I Am (2008); Tommy Hamilton; Tīwhanawhana; Tīwhanawhana Trust; United Future; Wellington; Whanau Ora; Whanganui; Whangarei; Women's suffrage petition (1893); World Health Organization (WHO); acceptance; adoption; ageing; anti discrimination; attitude; bathrooms; biphobia; birth certificate; bisexual; bullying; community; corrective surgery; culture; death certificate; detention centre; difference; discrimination; diversity; elder issues; equality; family; flags; funding; gender affirming healthcare; gender expression; gender identity; gender neutral bathrooms; gender reassignment surgery; genderqueer; government; health; health care; health rights; health system; high cost treatment pool (Ministry of Health); homelessness; homophobia; homophobic violence; homosexual; homosexual law reform; hope; hui; human rights; identity documents; intersex; intersex phobia; kaupapa; law; legal gender recognition; mana wahine; marriage equality; medicalisation; medications; mental health; national rainbow strategy; normalisation surgery; passport; politics; positive ageing; prison; rangatahi; resource; respect; safe space; safety; school; sex characteristics; sexual violence; solidarity; stamps; stigma; stress; suicide; surgery; survey; takatāpui; tangata ira tane; taonga; tolerance; top surgery; torture; training; trans; transgender; transphobia; validation; volunteer; wahine toa; waiata; whakawahine; whānau; youth
DATE: 17 May 2017
YEAR: 2017
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um [00:00:30] uh [00:01:00] uh uh. It is my pleasure as a co-chair of our cross party Rainbow [00:01:30] Network. And on behalf of myself, Janie and Paul Foster Bell to welcome you here tonight, Um, just wanted to share. Uh, I guess our journey is the Rainbow Cross party network. We were only established on the second of June, 2015, and it was an auspicious day because it was Pink shirt day. And so on the 26th of May, which is next Friday, we will again celebrate Pink Shirt Day. And I just wanted to remind us that Pink Shirt Day is about stopping, bullying, [00:02:00] celebrating diversity, promoting positive and positive social relationships. And it's about us, I guess, defining community. And so I see tonight's event about, uh is about defining community. And so I want to acknowledge who has been a critical partner, Uh, in our cross party group helping to to define community. I want to acknowledge I tens I want to acknowledge inside out, and I want to acknowledge the Human Rights Commission, and I thank you, Richard and and the team, [00:02:30] uh, for your support of this. Now, what is this? I hot Ida Hobbit, as we've termed it ourselves, Uh, it's it's really interesting to look at the history, Uh, because the reason that we're here today was because our community mobilised in 2004 to form a day in 2005 celebrated on the 17th of May because that's when homosexuality ceased to be classified as a disease by the World Health Organisation. And [00:03:00] that original, um, celebration was about ensuring that homophobia was eradicated around the world. Uh, in 2009, we added to homophobia transphobia in 2015. We added biphobia and actually here in Aotearoa in New Zealand in 2017, we've had we've added intersex phobia. So it really is, uh uh for us Uh, a monumentous, I think occasion because we are, uh, for the very [00:03:30] first time joining our international community. And so I acknowledge that in over 100 and 20 countries around the world, we all stand in solidarity. We stand in solidarity because we are standing for the up for the rights of our community. And so tonight we're going to hear from our community, uh, in that community in collaboration with our political leadership, Hopefully are developing, developing, uh, defining the solutions that I think are going to make our community better. So let's all enjoy tonight. [00:04:00] [00:04:30] [00:05:00] [00:05:30] [00:06:00] Sure. In that, uh [00:06:30] uh uh. First and foremost, I'd like [00:07:00] to acknowledge the of this place. Uh, and who we gathered into the trust for their welcome and their opening to our evening. I'd like to acknowledge this house and the that is outside the House of Representatives. Uh, that is the house for all people in New Zealand. Uh, and the treasured forecourt, Uh, that is outside. I'd like to pay, uh, our respects to those we are connected to [00:07:30] who have died in recent times. In particular, I'd make mention of the mother of Tom Hamilton, uh, one of the collaborators on this project. Uh, Thomas was who, and his mother's funeral was this week. So to all families who were briefed at this time, I like to also highlight once again the symbolic raising of the rainbow flag on the parliamentary forecourt this morning, which, to me signifies that rainbow people are very much part of this country. And I pay my respects to members of this house that are gathered here [00:08:00] of the different parties, those who've gathered to take part and those who are not here. You have a huge role to play in the life of our democracy. And and it's very important, um, that we engage with you. So thank you very much. Those of you who are here and also I I like to thank you, uh, for the invitation of the parliament to gather here under this roof and to dialogue here and particularly acknowledge the leadership of the cross party Rainbow Group Lesa Jan Paul in particular, for your support to this [00:08:30] and also acknowledge the communities who have gathered all of you who are interested but also to the significant work that our community leaders have, uh, who are going to speak tonight, have done in preparing for this panel, uh, presentation in the the panel discussion. Uh, and last but not least, greetings to my colleagues here from the Human Rights Commission. Briefly, I'm going to introduce to you, um, Joel Crisp, who is, uh, uh, the special projects manager who's been, uh, sharing [00:09:00] the leadership of this work with Moana. I, uh, a senior human rights uh, specialist, uh, in the Wellington office and we also have with us our chief financial officer uh, Kyle Kyle, Lovely to have you with us and alongside the rest of us in the commission and apologies from our CEO. Cynthia Brophy was called away to something else at the last minute, but it was very much her intention to be here. M, maybe if the MP S who are going to speak those who are going to speak can please come up and take these seats here. Um, so please come forward [00:09:30] and we've got Nicola Willis. Nicola here. Good. Hello, Nicola. I just met you just before. Please come up now, Nicola, I'll talk to talk about Nicola as well, So please come up and take a seat. So, please, people, you're welcome to our, um our MP S and Nicola, a parliamentary candidate who's standing in, um so I'll start with the ones the one furthest away from me Grant Robertson from the Labour Party. Please give me your give me a hand. [00:10:00] Jane Lugi for on the greens, uh, Peter Dunn, who is the not just the representative of, uh, United future, but is the party leader of United Future and also great. Welcome to Nicola Willis, national candidate for Wellington Central, please. [00:10:30] So how these people got here is there was an invitation sent to all the party leaders to provide somebody for this, Um, for this panel discussion and one of the party leaders has come in person, which is just great. Um, thank you, Peter. Lovely to have you with us. A lot of choice. And I know that Peter has offered an apology. He needs to leave early. So when he's speaking, we'll be asking him to speak first, Um, the other. Thank you. The other, um, the other ones we've drawn [00:11:00] by a lot. And, um, so there's some random stuff going on there. Um, so apologies from Chris Bishop, who's from the national Party who was due to be here. And this is what this piece of paper was. So, uh, Chris is not able to be here. So what's gonna happen is that our rainbow community people here have a presentation to make to our parliamentarians, and they're going to work their way through that. And then there will be an opportunity to, uh for the parliamentarians to respond how [00:11:30] we're going to work. That is the rainbow community. People are going to speak for four minutes each and there'll be a warning at three ish Says, uh, Elizabeth's going to introduce the overall, and there'll be a little bit bit more time there. The other speakers are gonna try and work on four minutes. And then the parliamentarians again will speak for about five minutes in response. And then we'll open up a discussion at, uh uh uh uh uh And And at that point, we'll be able to take questions from the, uh, Rainbow community reps. But also, we can take questions from the floor. [00:12:00] So now, without further ado, I'd like to hand over, uh, proceedings at this point. Unless I'm missing something. No, I'm good to Elizabeth. Uh, who is going to introduce the Yeah, uh, it's wonderful to be here amongst you tonight. [00:12:30] Uh, in particular. We do thank the Rainbow Parliamentary Network for helping make this happen. Uh, my name is Elizabeth. I'm chair of Trust, and we advocate for so all Maori who are with diverse sexes, sexualities and genders, uh, and sex characteristics. So including, uh, lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans intersex and queer. And tonight you saw an example of how we roll where we see that the cultural [00:13:00] is always connected into the political. The, um I don't know that there's evidence or that I can prove this, but I'm willing to bet that in this on this day, the International Day against homophobia, biphobia and transphobia, I'm willing to bet that we're one of the only places in the world where leading rainbow organisations are sitting down and having a conversation with representatives from the every ruling party in their country. And I'm pretty proud [00:13:30] of that and I'm excited about what will happen after that. So tonight most of the speakers tonight represent, uh, members of the coalition that was formed to create this, uh so as was mentioned, Human Rights Commission I inside out, but also mosaic and Rainbow Wellington So a mixture human rights institutions, national and local organisations. The report that was sent to the MP S brought together [00:14:00] as much research as is available in this country about the issues that are facing us. Uh, but also we we created a survey that went out, and about 250 members of our community, uh responded to say what are our priorities amongst. There are many, many issues facing us, some parts of our communities in different ways. What are the priorities? But also what are the things that actually government can do something about? There are many other issues which we need to work on inside our own communities and things that we will work on with our [00:14:30] and and the different communities that we operate within. So the first thing that we looked at was around. The key issues which have consistently over the last 10 20 years, have consistently been brought up by the Human Rights Commission and by our NGO S across the country are the rights to equality and non-discrimination safety and security for all of us. Uh, with specific concerns about violence for our young people, within schools [00:15:00] and within our communities and places of detention, uh, that we should be able to have the highest levels of health and access to the health care we need when we need it. Freedom from torture and cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment or punishment in healthcare settings and protection from medical abuses, particularly for trans and intersex people. The right to recognition before the law uh, partly in relation to legal [00:15:30] gender recognition. Uh, for those who are non-binary, uh, but also in other areas that affect very specific parts of our community, such as adoption. Now, the online survey that we put out and when we we've just done an initial a breakdown of that data. Uh, but the key priorities really resounding. Numbers coming from people were around access to health care, violence and bullying in schools. [00:16:00] Uh, there was a focus on trans people into sex and young people. So our presentation reflects a combination of those things. So we will have speakers to talk about inclusive health care, particularly, uh, including mental health care for all of our communities are barriers to gender affirming health care for trans and gender diverse people. Human rights violations experienced by intersex people, particularly [00:16:30] in health care settings, are bullying and the need for diversity support inside of schools and violence against people with rainbow identities. And their last one is specifically around, uh, legal gender recognition and adoption. So this is not every issue that is facing us, and we understand that these things are interconnected. Uh, we cannot usefully or meaningfully always separate these out for this purpose, though, when we're dealing with government, we have to say [00:17:00] this department deals with this thing. This is this is what happens here. Uh, people have specific policies in different ways. So as a community, we weave those things together. Uh, for the purposes of this and and dealing with government and agencies, we have to find ways of separating. So finally, I would like to just point out that we still need further data collection about the issues facing our communities. We still need significant funding of rainbow organisations who are doing work in this area [00:17:30] and other areas that we have no real infrastructure to support, uh, resources for peer led initiatives, especially in the youth sector, and effective participation by our people and our communities. Whether they identify under a rainbow identity or not, whether they claim a flag or not, Uh, and whether they feel like they're part of a community, actually, anybody with diverse sexes, genders, sexualities and sex characteristics should be safe in this country. [00:18:00] Sorry, And of course, this is not the end of the story. This is just the next stage of we were up to in our relationship with government, uh, projects going forward, Uh, include National Rainbow Strategy, which we're working on and, uh, also the world conference that we're hosting here in this country. I hope that we have some things that come from this night that we've got some pretty amazing things to show off about when we invite the rest of the world to our country. [00:18:30] I It's going to, um, Elizabeth. Thank you for that. I'm just going to introduce the speakers one by one as they're ready to go. So, first up, um, Juana I, senior human rights specialist, Human Rights Commission Wellington. Uh [00:19:00] um um, ladies and gentlemen, members of Parliament. Uh, welcome to this evening's event. Uh, my name is I'm a senior human rights specialist here with the Human Rights Commission in Wellington. Uh, the area that, um, [00:19:30] I wish to address with you this evening is the health care for rainbow people. Um, and I'm probably going to do it differently to what others are, and I'm actually going to read you. Um, what was, uh, what came from the survey? Uh, that we sent out and was taken in the report that was compiled by Elizabeth and particularly Jack. So with regards to health care and Rainbow People research, as you know, uh, shows rainbow communities, like other minorities, experience persistent underlying stress [00:20:00] from being in a hostile environment in which their behaviour, values, appearance and or actions are different from the dominant majority. Homophobia. Transphobia biphobia stigma, including self stigma, isolation and secrecy, are likely to cause chronic stress for rainbow communities and individuals. And it's difficult because few New Zealand services request information and insufficient research has been undertaken on best practise to improve health outcomes, [00:20:30] the development of appropriate programmes and policies and the training for health care professionals have been slow. And studies show, uh, studies have found significant gaps in health service provision. Survey respondents, for example, identified that one health priority for gay men is the securing of pharmac funding for prep when prescribed as an HIV medication. Part of the work, uh, that the commission is doing in this area and in particular will be [00:21:00] covered off a little later on, uh, by Michell under intersex, um is around, um, the, uh, working with the Ministry of Health today. Uh, my colleagues and others, uh, have had meetings with Statistics New Zealand, uh, around the fact that, uh, data, um, is difficult, uh, to collect or has not been collected, Uh, with regards to our rainbow communities And also a meeting this morning with the Department of Corrections as well. Um, around what is happening [00:21:30] with regards to the health and care, uh, for trans prisoners. So all of these issues are issues that you will be aware of. Uh, and, of course, uh, we're looking forward to this evening, uh, to our members of parliament addressing those things, too. Thank you very much. Moana, Uh, the next, uh, speaker is going to be Jim. Jim Tray is an executive member from Rainbow Wellington. [00:22:00] Yo, um, I just want to acknowledge the reason I'm speaking tonight is to stand in for Tommy Hamilton, who, as Richard mentioned before, has suffered a a, um, family bereavement. So I just want to again send our and a out to Tommy and and friends. So, uh, tonight I'm speaking on the topic of trans healthcare. Um, the context really for trans people is, [00:22:30] um, that until probably only half a century ago, we lived in underground existence, and it's been a very long and slow and painful struggle to actually get any human rights for the trans people. Um and I mean, as recently as the 19 sixties, we could actually just be arrested on site. So those are the things that are still within the living experience of of the trans community. And no area is progress probably slower [00:23:00] and more painful and more overdue and more needed than the health care system. Now, this is not a new thing that's been put forward. It's being put forward time and time again. Um, and if we turn the clock back to um, the early nineties, this Parliament passed not only a Bill of Rights Act but also a human rights act to outlaw any kind of discrimination essentially against anybody. And, um, [00:23:30] I think it's it says something about our human rights institutions that about 15 years after those laws have been passed, the Human Rights Commission can conduct an inquiry that concludes that trans people experience discrimination, not like from time to time, or, you know, the odd person here or there. But it's actually part of their daily existence. So that's 15 years after that. That has actually been outlawed in this country. [00:24:00] And, um, then you might think Well, OK, so there are some people out there who have the wrong attitude, but really, what that report was saying was that it was actually government departments who are still, um, responsible for the most important forms of discrimination. And it's government agencies that really needs to be taking attention to this issue. And here we are, 10 years after that inquiry, and still there's been very, very little progress, particularly in the area of health [00:24:30] care. And what progress we have had has really had nothing to do with a response to that report. It's really simply because there are so many Trans people now coming out to their doctors and entering the health care system and the health care system having to respond and a few, um, really good professionals and people in that system who I want to acknowledge, Um, really trying to push this issue along. But it is, [00:25:00] as I said, a very long and painful process, and I think that's what's underlying the course. Action is this overall underlying message that it's long overdue, and it's about time that you know the human rights of trans people in the health care system was taken seriously. Um, now, I also want to acknowledge that as part of this very slow, painful process, that there are district health boards who have set up, um, programmes [00:25:30] and working groups to look into this issue. But again, I think the theme is it's very slow progress, like even three years into a project like that that would have produced a very flimsy discussion document that outlines perhaps the hope of what proper trans health care might look like in a broad outline. So I hope we can achieve much more than that in the next three years. And essentially, yes, it does come down to funding. [00:26:00] And at the moment, I think, um, well, it's great that some DH BS are taking on this responsibility. Um, it's a complex and difficult health care problem to address, and we are a small country, and I think we need to really be a bit more organised with our resources and how we address this problem. And I think, um, it's quite well known that the um, current minister's position is that it's the DH BS responsibility, But I think we need to see more [00:26:30] leadership from the minister and the Ministry of Health on this. And I think our community would also like to point out there is actually one area where the Ministry of Health does have formal responsibility, and that's a certain stream of funding called the High Cost Treatment Pool. And I'd like to point out, given what I said about discrimination, that gender, um, surgeries funded from that pool are the only kind of treatment that has a waiting list. And it's not an insignificant [00:27:00] waiting list. I think everybody knows how significant that waiting list is. So if that's not a clear cut case of discrimination, I don't know what it is, Um, but as well as funding, it's also about helping to create an organised pathway because I think what most Trans people will say that it's just like going into this bizarre kind of epic journey where you get passed from one person to another who doesn't know anything really about what they're doing. [00:27:30] So, um, nobody really knows quite in the system, um, in terms of providing an end to end treatment programme for trans people and you end up navigating your way through this kind of maze. Some people, depending on their background and the DH B may fare better than others. But that's essentially why one of the action points is really about training and awareness and making it clear what the system is supposed to be. [00:28:00] Your last point. I think, um, Well, yes, that was basically the third point, but basically the last, the last thing a trans person wants when they have the courage to come out to a healthcare professional is to kind of be left, you know, met with a blank stare as to how am I supposed to treat you? So, um, so it's about time we really cracked on and solve this problem in this country. Thank you. [00:28:30] Now, I, I thank you so much, Jim. I know it's hard to get these things, um, out and in, uh, such a short time. I know the, uh, members have been offered a full copy of the report back to the programme, and our next speaker is going to be man Manie. Bruce Mitchell, the executive director of Ian Intersex Awareness. Trust a New Zealand. Please welcome this. [00:29:00] Um, everyone, and particularly to you, our our guests who have come to hear us tonight and everybody else who's here. Uh, Marie Bruce Mitchell. I'm an intersex person. Grew up on the banks of the river on my dad's side, led back to Scotland on Mum's side and Milligan to Ireland. So I'm not going to reiterate what's in front of you [00:29:30] with the report. I'm going to go back to something I'm wearing here, um, the the colours and the symbol for the intersex movement. And it's really interesting that our young people have made this badge the colours of yellow and purple. But you can see here a heart we have to change not just for intersex people, but holding the hearts of this community and change homophobia. That's what tonight is about. So [00:30:00] when I think about intersex, let's go back to the birth of the intersex baby and I want to create a New Zealand where when that baby arrives, it's safe that we have staff who have been trained, what to do, that we have staff who know how to talk to the family in a gentle, kind, loving, informed way, and we take away the terror that currently is part of the intersex birth. So for the last 60 [00:30:30] years in this country, we've had a model, um, a medical driven model where we haven't done that. Loving hasn't been part of what is going on. So when we change things, I'm talking about the people there in the room and then providing support for the family for the so that the parents can hold this reality, which is often a shock, and go with it in a different place. Many years ago, I talked [00:31:00] to Rose Petty, who told me what used to happen in Maori community before Europeans arrived here. And she said, the old people used to say yes, they were very familiar with this reality. This is old. It's one of our young people said they were probably intersect dinosaurs, she said. The old people would say This child is a Tonga, a treasure who's [00:31:30] being sent to teach us something, Not what a child who's been sent to teach us something, and I'd like us to get back to that place. So we're talking about making it different for the birth of Children, and then the other thing is we have the 60 year history of people who have been hurt by this system, and we need some compensation and to address that issue. So [00:32:00] how do we do this? It's very simple. We need money, we need funding and we need an education system. And just like the young ones. Who said we need heart? Finally, how many of us are there? People say this is very rare. There's not very many of us wrong. Um, the young people have worked out There are as many intersex people, uh, as there are people with red hair. So if you think of the people that you know who have red hair, that's an equivalent of how many people you know [00:32:30] who are intersex. We can change this. We can change discrimination and fear. We just need the heart and the willingness to do it. Thank you. You the money. So, um, our next speaker is Tabby Beasley, national coordinator for inside out. Please come forward. [00:33:00] You, um I'm the founder and national coordinator of Inside Out. We're a national charity that aims to give young people of minority sexualities, genders and sex characteristics a sense of safety and belonging in their schools. and communities. Safety for our young people is one of the biggest issues facing rainbow young people for rainbow communities in a and across the globe. I think it's really important to recognise that all of the issues that we talk about tonight are affecting our young people. But some of the most pressing [00:33:30] issues are bullying and safety in schools, access to mental health support and transition pathways, and the huge need for resourcing training and support for our youth organisations across the country who are working in this sector a few weeks ago. Inside Out Friend Shift, which is our national youth. It brings young people from across the country all the way from to this time together for four days or workshops. It's an opportunity for young people to connect with their community, be in a space where they were free to be themselves and take away skills, knowledge, inspiration and strength to go back and make changes [00:34:00] in their own lives and communities. I want to share some quotes from the evaluations that young people who attended filled out um and note that these aren't the minorities of those stories. There were many many that I could have shared. And I just want to honour, um those young people for sharing their truth and, um, allowing me to share them as well. I now feel more confident in everyday life just knowing that there are people like those at the in the world who can remind me that I'm valid and that I'm not alone. [00:34:30] I was pretty close to suicide before the Hui. In all honesty, everything seemed too far away and I had no one. Now I feel at least like I need to stay alive for the next. Before coming to, I felt completely alone and like nobody understood the struggles I face daily. But after connecting with people here, I realised I am not alone and I'm going away with a new group of friends going through a similar thing. I now feel more hopeful about my future and transition. Being surrounded by people who understand and respect my identity has made me feel less alone. And I feel like the new skills I have learned will have a huge [00:35:00] benefit to me in lots of different areas. I feel like I wanted and that I'm loved and that I'm valid places like this are so rare that when you find them you have to hold on to them. Young people in New Zealand's Rainbow Communities are five times more likely to attempt suicide. Yet the services that are working to save these young people's lives are constantly struggling. Underresourced shift is just one example of numerous youth and volunteer led initiatives around the country where our communities are vital [00:35:30] to create better outcomes. For our, I think the quotes I've shared illustrate the huge impact that can be had on a young person when they get to experience what it's like to be in a safe environment, one that validates them, cares for them, empowers them, provides opportunity for meaningful learning and gives them permission to just be themselves. Imagine the possibilities for our young people, our country's future. If every environment they were in was providing those basic measures for well-being safety and belonging [00:36:00] just in our schools alone, there is so much potential to create positive change. However, the Year 2000 research by the University of Auckland showed us that there was no change in the huge amount of bullying that young student face in over 10 years. that statistic horrifies me because it shows the severe lack of care and action from government and education providers to do anything about it. I want to challenge all of our politicians in the room tonight to be part of making a difference in this area. I believe these statistics can change [00:36:30] trans bisexual, gay, lesbian, sex, gender queer young people aren't going away. In fact, more and more of us are opening up about our experiences and asking for respect. For the most part, our organisations and our young people know what needs to be done to make it better. We just ask you to please, please start listening. Yeah, Good to telly. [00:37:00] I noticed. Um, Peter, you're, um, looking at your watch. And I know that you're on a time frame. I'm wondering if we might just take, uh, at some point soon we'll take a break. I know you won't have had a chance to hear everybody, but you may be able to offer your response to what you've heard so far before you go. If you want to come here, Peter, please come forward or from there, If you want, we can move a microphone for you, Kilda, and thank you very much for the indulgence [00:37:30] of letting me say a few words at this stage. I'm trying to be in about three places at once this evening, and it's sort of working, but, uh, clocks are rather rigid. I've got to begin with a gentle chide to grant. I'm not here tonight because I have no option. I'm here tonight because I want to be here because I support your cause and because I feel very strongly about the sorts of things that we've seen spoken of this evening. I'm one of, I think, only three members of Parliament today who was in [00:38:00] Parliament to vote for the homosexual law reform in 1980 Bill in 1986. And I've seen a huge change in attitudes since that time when we recall the 30th anniversary last year and the horror stories of what went on around that bill completely unprecedented by today's imagination. But if you look at what's happened over the intervening 30 years, I think that we now are at a space where the tolerance, the understanding and the coming together [00:38:30] that you speak of, we can start to seriously think about achieving I. I don't have time to go through everything in your manifesto. Uh, a lot of it. I have very strong support for And when United Future releases its policy in due course, you'll see that reflected. But I think that comes down to a couple of very basic and important points. They may sound trite, they're not meant to, but they are genuine. Every New Zealander has a right to be tolerated and respected. [00:39:00] That is unconditional. The health system has to respond as best it can to the needs of all New Zealanders. I think the point that Marie made before I think it was Marie might have been the speaker before her, about the shortages of qualified staff in critical areas and the long waiting lists, Um, is, I think, one we've got to do much more to address. I think that we need to start to talk about the reduction of bullying homophobia. [00:39:30] However it's displayed in the education system in the workplace. I think it's diminishing in the community, although I still think there are pretty strong pockets of intolerance that need to be overcome. So I simply want to say, uh that that you have my support. I appreciated the invitation to be here at the time that this was being put together. I didn't imagine I was going to end up in this situation at this evening. It's quite interesting, actually. I've just come from launching some postage stamps to commemorate [00:40:00] the opening of the new exhibition on Friday, the the New Home for the 18 35 Declaration of Independence, the Treaty of Waitangi and the Women's Suffrage Petition. And one of you may wonder where I'm heading with this. I'll be very brief. One of the themes of that is about connections, about bringing people together, about making links about building our community. It seems to me it's entirely appropriate that I should have come from that to this occasion this evening because it's the same sorts of connections [00:40:30] that we need to make. Connections are about respect, connections are about understanding. Connections are not about judgement. They're not about whether one has prejudices or not. They are about treating every single one of us as equal and every single single one of us as having a right to enjoy what we regard as the New Zealand way of life. so I believe that this is an important occasion and I'm very grateful for the opportunity of being present. I want to assure [00:41:00] you of my support. And as I say, many of the things you're talking about we will reflect in our policy when it's released. In due course, we will support you and we'll give you all the assistance that we can. But I think at the end of the day, this is a story about the evolution of New Zealand and New Zealanders. Attitudes changing and New Zealand is becoming are much more open minded and tolerant. And I'll just make a slight comment. It doesn't affect anyone on the panel. There are some parties out there at the moment who are seeking to revert away from tolerance. [00:41:30] And you might think that you are the target. You may not be, but remember, Pastor Nila. Thank you. Thank you. The honourable Peter Dunn. Please give him a hand. We're going to continue with our, um, presentation on issues of importance to, uh, to young people. Bella Simpson, a trans youth advocate. Please come and speak to us. [00:42:00] Thank you. Um, so tonight I chose to wear black to acknowledge the young lives that we've lost due to a lack of safety support and LGBTI education within our schools. Um, schools have a responsibility to be a safe environment for students. And as you've heard this evening, that's not the case. At the moment. I'd like to highlight a key point from a lot of these discussions as well. When students talk about being bullied, this isn't just from other students. This is also from teachers, deans, [00:42:30] support staff and counsellors. These are the adults that are supposed to be there to help support students and make sure that they are safe. It's important that teachers have professional development to help learn and understand what some of their students are going through. It's also important that staff put their personal beliefs aside and focus on the student and what will help them. A student shouldn't have to teach their house teacher in class about how sexuality is fluid and that gender isn't just male and female. Sexuality and gender identity are these big, beautiful interchanging spectrums, [00:43:00] and all identities are valid. How does this relate to me and my school experience as a Trans woman who came out at the end of primary school. I've often been the one educating staff and students. I've had to support students who haven't been feeling supported from their schools. And it's a lot of responsibility to put onto a young person who just wanted a normal high school experience. You'd think that as time went on and young people felt more comfortable to be themselves as schools, more of an effort to be more educated, understanding and safe for their students. But again, as [00:43:30] you've heard from te, this is not the case. Time and time again, we see young people fighting and standing up to people in power just to make their high school experience safe and more comfortable not just for them, but for those around them who don't have the opportunities to stand up and say that something's not OK. A simple example is gender neutral bathrooms. Students are working really hard to make them happen in our schools, and I know a lot of people will be thinking it's not that important. I don't know why you're complaining or from a personal experience. I can tell you that holding on [00:44:00] for 12 plus hours is not fun and I'm pretty sure I've, like, screwed my bladder. So being trans can mean that sometimes and sometimes I mean, almost all of the time. Public gendered bathrooms are just not an option. They're just not safe. We need the government to step up and actually say that the education review office is not doing their job well enough. There are huge aspects of our schools that are not safe for our students. Young people are dying while attending our schools, and I don't know why we're OK with that. So thank you. [00:44:30] Thank you very, very much. Uh, Bella, our next speaker is George Colton, Youth and LGBTI, plus peer support worker for Mosaic here in Wellington. Please welcome back. Awesome. I just want to thank you all for being here. Um, I know that it's quite easy to think that we've done quite a lot in New Zealand and we do like to consider ourselves free of violence, but [00:45:00] that's simply not the case. Every single thing we've talked about here is violence against our people. Whether we have gender neutral bathrooms in a school, if it's not there, that is violent. How somebody is supposed to go through their day without even access to a toilet. It's something that's so simple that can be so easily introduced in policy that it's staggering, that it hasn't been done. So the work I do is I work with male victims of sexual violence. The reason I have to work with male victims is and sticking in the binary is because [00:45:30] there's no other way to receive funding currently. So we work all the way up into. We are the only service for males, and there's only two of us in my office. Um, 60% of the individuals I work with are rainbow. That means of the one in six men in New Zealand that will experience sexual violence. 60% of those that I'm seeing are rainbow themselves. I think the fact that this number is so high goes to show that these populations are being targeted. Our people [00:46:00] aren't safe, whether it's in schools or whether it's in the community. I don't think any of us will stand here and say that you know of a rainbow plus person that has been free of violence their entire life. I don't know anybody and I would think that the people coming forward, I would have liked to have seen a really huge change and unfortunately it's not happening. I was invited to work at shift. It was an absolutely phenomenal experience. But I think the hardest thing for me to see from that was all of these bright, beautiful [00:46:30] and coloured individuals are still suffering. These are our youth that are coming forward. These are our future. And if these people aren't free of violence, well, what can they expect of their youth? We need to do this for them and it's simply not acceptable. The levels of violence we have in New Zealand is off the charts and internationally recognise that we are one of the worst in health outcomes for violence. We have such huge suicide rates for our youth and the funding for the services that are working on these front lines [00:47:00] are actively being cut. I know of services up and down Wellington that have lost staff. I know of places that are subsiding entirely on charitable donations, and if we don't have these services, people will die. It's not a question of if it's not a question of when. Sorry, it's a question of When are we going to help these people? If we don't, there's not going to be a future for us. And as much as I'd like to stand here and say that everything's happy and shiny, it's really not. We must do better. And it's down to you [00:47:30] guys to make this happen for us. The communities are out here, and we're doing all that we can. But we can't subside on nothing. We can't keep pushing and pushing and pushing and just hitting a wall. We must do better. Thank you, George. Thank you very, very much. We've got one final speaker from the community presentation, Uh, before we turn the tables [00:48:00] and ask our, uh, parliamentary representatives and and candidate to, um, offer their, uh, responses. But in the meantime, please. Jack Byrne, independent researcher and consultant, including to the A PF, which is the Asia Pacific Forum of National Human Rights Institutions. And he is based in Auckland. Please give Jack a welcome hand, and I'm gonna be really short because I know people [00:48:30] you know want to hear from, um, the politicians at the front table and maybe have a chance to to talk as Well, um, laws matter, too. The the the better I've got at the end is legal is about how laws protect and recognise our communities, and they're always part of the equation. They're always part of the solution. They're not sufficient on their own. And maybe I'll start, for example, with the Human Rights Act. We all [00:49:00] know, you know, I worked at the commission. I would say to everyone here you are covered by the Human Rights Act. The commission says you are covered. Bring your complaints. But I know the community doesn't feel that, and I know why. It's because it's not obvious in the act. It says sex, including pregnancy and childbirth, and somehow that's meant to cover trans and intersex people. The good news is it does because the commission accepts your complaints. But there are other people out in [00:49:30] the community who will say it doesn't cover us, and I guess one of the things I say changing the law and making it more explicit would be a good symbol. But more than anything, each time crown law or a minister says you are all covered, so we have to do nothing. What we actually need them to do is tell schools what it means for our communities. Tell workplaces what it means for our communities because at the moment it's like it's all fine and it's not so that guidance. If you think we're all covered, then put it [00:50:00] into action. Create guidelines for schools, create better guidelines for workplaces and include gender expression as well. Because that's the one where it's really, really unclear. Um so laws are part of it, but on their own, they're not enough. The next one was legal gender recognition, like we've got world leading policy in New Zealand with passports and driver licence, but it is still really, really, really hard to change your birth certificate. You have to show medical evidence well, it's [00:50:30] hard enough to get to see a hormone specialist in this country, let alone get them to write you something that you can take to the family court. It costs money, and it's inaccessible to go through that process. If we were a country in Europe, we would be now one of the 22 countries in Europe that the European Court of Human Rights told in the last month that they had to remove any medical requirements for legal gender recognition. And we still have full birth certificates, a requirement for medical evidence. So we've got the solutions [00:51:00] with our passports and driver's licence. We've got a petition to the government administration committee saying, Let's do it for other documents because if we don't make it clear for both certificates, then most of us have incongruent documents, and that's not something you want. When in this world now to have documents that one thing says one thing, another says something else. It also is really important at particular times in your life. If you can't change your birth certificate, you die. Your death certificate will have the sex on it that is on your birth certificate. [00:51:30] If you have a child, your child, you will be listed on your child's birth certificate based on what's on your birth certificate. So it is important and the last one was adoption was just to say, sometimes our fights and our challenges are ones that we share with others in the community. So a lot through marriage equality has been one in terms of adoption, but the the the community we need to stand with now is all de facto couples because it's de facto couples who still do not have the right [00:52:00] to adopt as a couple. Thank you, Jack. Amazing people. You've done incredibly well with our even with our little chopping and changing in the middle. Um, and so now is the time for our MP S and Nicola to, uh, offer some responses. And, uh, I said there was a little bit of, uh, a little bit of, um there was a bit of a draw that happened [00:52:30] on. So, uh, I warned Jan that she was going to be up next after after Peter. And then after that, we'll hear from Nicola, and we'll leave Grant to go last but mean of me. I know. Sorry. But, uh, if we could, uh, take speakers in that order and again, please feel free to come this way or to stay in your seats. Um, the So I'm speaking tonight on Oh, actually, first, I've got a message from the Maori party. Um, they were unable [00:53:00] to be here tonight, Um, because both, um Mama Fox and are out of the country. So they've written a message, so I will just read that so that you know that they're here as well. Um So the Maori party joins with other parties today to recognise International Day against homophobia, biphobia and transphobia 2017. We join with yourselves and others throughout the world in raising the awareness [00:53:30] of violence, discrimination and repression of LGBT Q communities. While this is an opportunity to acknowledge this day and be part of the dialogue and to hear the and engage with wider society, we also want to acknowledge today as a day of celebration of the strength and perseverance of our rainbow. A has come some way to acknowledging the needs of our rainbow community, but we have a very long way to go [00:54:00] as the findings of the report for the panel Rep Presentation on Human rights issues and Rainbow's Communities details. We acknowledge the 26 recommendations over six sections in the report and will work with the Rainbow Community, the Human Rights Commission, Intersex Trust and the other groups represented here today. To address these recommendations, the Maori Party is committed to supporting the rainbow community and support [00:54:30] everyone here to stand strong against any violation of human rights. We believe in restoring the essence of who we are as to be able to create opportunities to determine our own pathways. It's about our health, our homes and our communities, the future of which lies in our hands. Yeah. [00:55:00] Um, so there's there are a lot of things that need to be done. And first up, I want to, um to thank everyone in this room for the work that you are doing and for the authors of this report, um, who have put these recommendations to us? Um, we know our family and our communities [00:55:30] are hanging in there, and that's not the best we can do as a country and that all of the people we love deserve so much more. And you have been fighting this fight for so long and and I really, on behalf of the Green Party, I want you to know that we [00:56:00] are with you in this struggle. Um, and I want to just specifically address some of the, um, calls for action and let you know that, like, I think we should be judged on our actions as well as our commitments. And so to let you know, some of the things that we have been doing up to this point so that you can judge our, um, commitment based on that. So, um, in terms of the [00:56:30] first point around health care, Um, my colleague who deserted me, Kevin Haig, Um, which I'm still a little bitter about, Um, he accepted the petition from Tommy Hamilton. Um, around access, um, for health care for trans people in New Zealand and wrote the minority report, Um, at the end. And in that report, [00:57:00] Um, and I think we've heard very clearly tonight about the waiting list. One of the other things that just drives me mad and I think is completely unacceptable. That I haven't heard articulated is the fact that in the of DH BS nine DH BS said they provided no services to trans people and that there is no other area of health care in this country where nine DH BS would say they do not provide for [00:57:30] an entire grouping of people, and it is completely unacceptable. And in the minority report to that petition, um, we committed to developing a national surgical service, um, for surgeries and that it should establish minimum requirements for DH BS in connection with endocrinology. I always struggle over that word and mental health services for trans and intersex New Zealanders, Um, and recognising that that will need to be across primary, [00:58:00] secondary and tertiary level health care services and that the government should also clarify for all DH BS that acceptability of the way all services are provided to trans and intersex New Zealanders is a minimum quality requirement and should provide training services if these are required to meet this the standard. So we have a very clear on record commitment to making progress, and I think it's completely [00:58:30] unacceptable that when the case has been made So, um, clearly to this parliament that there has not been any progress and it's not good enough. And I hope people vote to change that. Um, I would also like to say that, um, we were part of, um and it was an incredible honour. I must say to be part of the intersex round table organised, um, by the Intersex Trust and the Human Rights Commission, [00:59:00] Um and that our policy position, um, has been to work in partnership with intersex people, um, to develop appropriate policies and we absolutely endorse the recommendations that were made out of that round table and in government. The Greens will commit to developing and implementing a child's rights based health care protocol for intersex Children and securing bodily integrity of every [00:59:30] child born in this country and to investigate the incident of surgical and other medical treatment. And I say treatment of intersex Children without informed consent because without informed consent, I do not believe we can even use the language treatment. It's abuse and it needs to end. And we are committing to that, um, in terms of bullying in the schools that my colleague again well before my time Kevin initiated, [01:00:00] um research and funded that into, um, what needed to be done in schools and developed a suite of policies for making our schools safe and again commissioned research to investigate whether er were doing their job or not, and clearly found out that they're not. And in the cross-party Working group, we've been working to, um to get this as a special topic for EO to be investigating our schools. And alongside of that, I have been pushing, and I've written to the minister [01:00:30] to be getting resources for our community based organisations to be able to do that, work in schools, to get the teachers up to speed, to make sure that there are appropriate toilets to make sure that there are policies and that those policies are known. And I I think we can train um the mainstream organisations. But we need to resource our people to do it because we are going to do it best because we have the stake in it [01:01:00] and there would be so many more benefits from us having our organisations with permanent funding and resource and our society will know so much more when we have an established ongoing presence where we can develop that thinking and that advocacy. OK, great. Um and so that goes across. We also, um, support the need for research. And um, we got in the, um so in select [01:01:30] committees, we review institutions and so the Families Commission or super and the annual review of that organisation. We got them to, um and the select Committee to recommend that they needed to be permanent research, um, for quantitative and qualitative data relating to our people, particularly under this government, where there's a focus on, um investment, Um, for, um, social investment, which is all going to be data driven. And there's no data about [01:02:00] us. So that means there's no argument and there's no within that model justification for any of our organisations or needs being met. So that has to be there. And we have put that, um, into some of the political system and are calling for a response for that at the moment. We also supported the, um, petition from Alison Hamlet, um, around changes to, um, birth certificates and making that on a basis of self I education. Um, [01:02:30] And for me, it's a core issue, like you don't get much more personal than your gender identity. Why any system ever put that in the hands of a doctor or a court is beyond me, like surely it's a fundamental right to define our own gender. OK, so And on that note, um, I just want to again just say thank you all so much [01:03:00] for the work that you are doing with no resource and no, and without the due recognition that you deserve, because you are saving lives in the interim until we can fix the system. Thank you. Jane. Um I'm not sure how much notice you got, Nicola, but you're very brave stepping in at such short notice. Nicola Willis, national [01:03:30] candidate for Wellington Central. Please come forward. Uh, thank you all for having me. Um, it's really wonderful to be here. I'm here because an invitation went out for this event, and I thought, Well, I have to be there because I want to stand up and affirm my personal commitment, uh, to the rights of the LGBTI community and the rainbow community. And so that's why I'm here. Um, I'm not here because [01:04:00] I'm a member of parliament or because I have, uh, within my hands right now the power to change any of the things that you have talked about tonight. So I stand here on that basis, and I'm, uh, very grateful that I'm getting to speak. Regardless, what I can say, um, is is thank you to all of the speakers. Um, because I have learned a lot from you tonight, uh, and listening to you So Elizabeth Moana Jim Marie Tabby. George. [01:04:30] Jack. Thank you. Um, you, uh, and and Bella, I'm sorry. Thank you very much for, for your words which clearly take bravery and also reflect a great commitment. Um, and I want to acknowledge the work of everyone in this room who has done so much to fight for the rights of a community and who are continuing to fight for those rights. Um, and you've made great advances. Uh, I want to single out Lesa. Um, marriage. Equality has been a wonderful thing for New Zealand. And [01:05:00] I'm so grateful that I've been able to celebrate family weddings, uh, with my Children, that wouldn't that we wouldn't have been able to go to, um a few years ago. And I think you've shown us the power that leadership can have in this area and the advances that are possible. Um, and I think it's in that spirit that I'd respond particularly to what said which is that fundamentally, when we have these things in our hearts, we are it is possible to make changes. So in acknowledging, uh, the work [01:05:30] that's been done, we also need to acknowledge the work that's yet to be done. And it's clear listening today, Uh, and and it's clear from the experiences that so many of you are having, uh, that there is more work to be done. So I, on behalf of the National Party, can acknowledge our party's commitment to the rights of rainbow people. Um, our stand against homophobia biop transphobia, intersex phobia. I want to acknowledge the work of my colleagues, uh, in [01:06:00] particular. Paul Foster Bell, who sits on the committee, uh, with Louisa. And I want to acknowledge particularly the commitment of Nicky Kay, who has in particular ensured an increase in funding for Rainbow Youth to ensure that they are able to expand, uh, the initiatives that they provide to provide services to young people. Um, when it comes to the specific calls to action and the report that you've issued, um, straight up didn't know that I was going to be, um, here didn't haven't [01:06:30] had access to the report. But the commitment that I offer to you is that I am going to read that report in detail, and I'm going to understand it. Um, and I will study it, and where appropriate, I will commend those things to my colleagues. Um, and that is something that I make a commitment to. As I stand for Parliament, I stand here with my conscience that I must ensure that my Children grow up in a community where each of us have the rights that are actually written into our law and that, as a community, we [01:07:00] have decided must be upheld. And so, where there are barriers to that occurring, um, I want to advocate to have those barriers taken down. Um, And so that's how where I stand from a position of conscience. And I'm quite happy to continue that with my party, uh, into the future. And so that's how that's on that basis that I stand here today. Um, I'm not gonna take my full six minutes. Um, but I, I do want to to end by saying that I want to acknowledge the hurt of so many [01:07:30] clearly in this room. Um, that deserves to be acknowledged. Um, but when hearing, uh, the words from the Maori Party, I thought, Yes, yes, I want to do that too. I do want to do some celebrating because we have come a long way. Uh, and we have do so much better in this country than in so many other countries around the world, and we should be proud of that and we should see in that the possibility and the potential that we will continue to do better and that we will continue to have momentum forward. [01:08:00] So I look forward to continuing this conversation with all of you to continuing to learn from you to studying the work that you have done, uh, and to responding to it in more detail and talking to my parliamentary colleagues about it. Thank you, Nicola. Thank you very, very much. Our final speaker from our, uh, parliamentary panel is from the Labour Party. Grant Robertson, Please. [01:08:30] Uh, greetings, everybody. Welcome to Parliament. Your place. Stay as long as you like. Um, I'm gonna take Nicholas' other two minutes too, by the way, because I've got a lot to say. Um, the first thing I do want to do is add my, um, thanks to everyone who contributed to the report, but especially to the people who spoke tonight, [01:09:00] Um, that was an act of courage for everybody, but I really do. I know it's a terrible thing to do, but I really do want to single out Tay and Bella for the leadership that you show among uh um, you are doing marketable things. Both of you. Let's give a big round of and I wanna obviously acknowledge, um, my parliamentary colleagues Nicola, um Willis as well and particularly, uh, Lewis A uh [01:09:30] So the flag outside today, a bit of a history lesson on the flag outside today. We got it up last year for the 30th anniversary of homosexual law reform, and I was not sure we'd ever get it up again, but Lesa made it happen. So, um, Lou, thank you so much for doing that. And the group and Jan and Paul. But but I, I actually I know Jan and Paul worked hard, but if you've ever been on the other end of Lesa wanting something to happen, um, she used to do this on the rugby field as well. It just happens. So, um, Lou, um, thank you so much [01:10:00] for for what you did in making that happen. Um, George, I want to start with something that that you said about how there isn't a person in our broader community who doesn't know about violence. And I think it's a really important place to start. In 1996 I walked out the door of a nightclub in Wellington and took three steps out and a guy punched me in the mouth and said, You fag it as I hit the ground I've never forgotten that ever. It's 21 years ago and you can tell in my voice what it does [01:10:30] to me when I think about it and I'm a a big, bigger then a big white male and that's what happened to me so that legacy of violence is wrong and it affects every single person who makes a call about being who they are about standing up and saying who they are. So we gotta start there. We got to start there by saying That's wrong [01:11:00] and it doesn't happen and we do everything in our power not just as politicians, but as all of us in our community to support people who go through that, but also to make sure that we stop it from happening because we can start with all the policy things I'm gonna get into them in a minute. Labour Party got lots of policy, but but we've got to start at that level of what is and isn't right, what's right and wrong in the world, and that's important. And while I'm on that point, I've got a word I don't want [01:11:30] us to use anymore. And that's tolerance. I'm sick of it. I'm not here to be tolerated. None of you are. What you are are here to be accepted, embraced and understood. That's what we gotta do. So that's that's my little bit on that. 26 recommendations are all good. Let's just do them. Bye. But since you've got me up here, um, [01:12:00] on the legislative side of things, I want to acknowledge Jack and what you said, Jack and, um, I also want to acknowledge him for to be who I am as well in 2008, and and say that it is hugely regretful that we didn't follow through. We went out of government. So we lost the ability to follow through in the governmental sense on that. You're right about, um, the commission and what it does. But the Human Rights Act doesn't currently give, um, people from the trans community from broader genders, communities, [01:12:30] um, any confidence that that is real, and so clearly we have to address that legislative matter. I actually think we need a fresh approach on legislation. And, um, we've been taking a look at Malta's gender identity, gender expression and sex characteristics act, um, which actually provides a different model for how you can go about this. It has a very practical purpose, which makes it extremely easy to deal with the birth certificate issue that we've been talking about [01:13:00] tonight that takes away the medical component of it and just makes it something that you say quite a simple approach. It's got a lot more to it than that. And it provides, I think, some of the confidence that, um, gender queer communities are looking for in terms of this. So that's our starting point about a fresh approach of looking at legislation. Um, you know, legislation doesn't easily translate from one country to another, so you've got to take a look at it. But the principles that lie behind that we think are are particularly important, and that would then lead [01:13:30] to the reformation of birth, deaths and marriages and other acts and potentially even the Human Rights Act itself. But I think we need to take a fresh approach now with where we are in the world today. uh, in terms of legislation, I could say a whole lot more about that. But even with stealing everyone else's minutes, I'll run out of time. Um, the the second area I wanna I want to talk about is is in schools. And in 2008, Chris Carter made a change when he was education minister to the way that the education review office did it work, did it work [01:14:00] and asked them specifically to include in every report something about safety in schools. And here's what various people have mentioned good intent, not followed up by action. So now we know that that hasn't happened. And so we now have to go back again, and we've got I'm sitting here in front by the way of our 2017 policy, which actually hasn't been through its final stages. But I'm basically just telling you it, so just, you know, when it gets ticked off later go. Oh, wow. Grant never mentioned that that night, but, uh, but, you know, we we do want [01:14:30] to see, um, intensive intervention and proper support for rainbow youth in the school system. Schools have got to have both policies and then be chased up on their policies. Um and and that is about everything. Sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression into sex. We, uh, yes. Implement the Ministry of Education sexual education guidelines in the health curriculum and then making er actually look at the experience and well being of rainbow community students. It's essential. The health system, everything that everybody has said. Absolutely [01:15:00] yes. In my community here in Wellington, we have the most incredible youth health service in the world that is stuffed at the moment because it's not being funded properly. And, um, this is the bit where I go hyper political on all of you for tonight. The health system is completely being undermined by gross underfunding. There is no target for mental health at the moment. The government doesn't take it seriously. That will only happen if you change the government because that's how we'll get the funding that actually needs to happen into the health system. And organisations [01:15:30] like Evolve can get what they need. We're fully committed to the ending HIV campaign as promoted by the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, Um, that includes not only access to drugs, but also early treatment testing, education research and more. Um, we can do that. It's actually an exciting possibility for all of us. I just want to talk about because Richard is gonna bring his bell again in a minute. I've got to talk about two areas that haven't really been mentioned tonight. Homelessness and tackling, particularly youth, homelessness, but actually not just youth homelessness. Our [01:16:00] communities experience higher rates of homelessness just as we do high rates of suicide as well. We have a huge issue there. We need specific housing for young, um, Rainbow Youth. We also need housing as as our communities grow a little older as well. Um, not able, perhaps to have the security that you might have. Um, if you had a a, another kind of life that you would live. So I think that's got to be a really important part. Supporting positive ageing is a hugely significant, um, thing to do. And then just I want to say something to her around the intersex community. Um, we [01:16:30] have to stop the medical model and we join, um, the Green party in in saying that we'll implement a child rights based health care protocol for intersex Children That is one of those things in our society I think we could probably all agree on. I will finish it there. I actually have a lot more that I could say, and I'm very happy to talk to people afterwards. We, too stand on our record in the Labour Party from the very beginning of having been there for our communities. And we're still there today. [01:17:00] Thank you so much for your generosity and, uh, sticking to the times that we've set out. And I, I really appreciate the the volume of work that's been put in by the presenters. Um, and the care that you've taken in terms of reading the reports before you came because you couldn't possibly have heard everything tonight. [01:17:30] So it's that you've had to do some homework and thank you very, very much. Um, and also to Peter for, uh, the work that you've done. Um, so we're getting to that time where we're going to want to move next door. Um, and it's left to me to, uh, do a very quick bit of summing up. I don't really need to sum up things in terms of issues. I think they're very very clear. And the responses that you've heard, um, acknowledge the significance [01:18:00] of the issues that have been put there, some with more weight, some with less weight. But, uh, there there's a lot there. But look, please. My thanks. First and foremost to the cross party rainbow MP S Group who has brought this together under the house. Uh, the the roof of the house of parliament, please. Um and not just the MP S, but their staff, their long suffering PAS who have been. And we've got Joe [01:18:30] here, and I don't think we've got Brady here, and I don't think we've got Jessie here, but they've been amazing in terms of, um, working with us to make this happen. So thank you so much. Um, Nicola and the MP S that have come. Thank you so much for coming and listening and responding and being part of tonight. Please. Um the presenters from the Rainbow Communities and from the Human Rights Commission. [01:19:00] All of you, Um really incredibly valuable work bringing the issues forward. Please, Everybody, give them a hand. Uh, and also, uh, last, but certainly not least, you members of the community, both rainbow and probably no non rainbow communities who have come here to share this share. The acknowledgement of this day, the International Day Against homophobia, biphobia and transphobia in this place [01:19:30] with this event and coming and sharing in this, because without you here, um, this would be a pretty quiet experience. We've got an audience, you're going to be able to participate. So thank you so much for being here and being party to this. So give yourselves a hand, everybody. And just one final acknowledgement before I hand over to Kevin, um, to do the And when he's done the we're going [01:20:00] to invite you all to sting to stand and sing to A which was the That was sung when the rainbow flag was hoisted above the forecourt this morning So we can start our day and finish our day with singing that, um but in a further acknowledgement, to make, uh, that we've had here this evening the British High Commissioner to New Zealand. Jonathan Sinclair. Your Excellency, it's been great to have you here. And I hope, um, you've really enjoyed your time. And I'm sure that, um, many of our people are going to look forward to [01:20:30] sharing a bite to eat and a cup of tea with you, uh, in the room next door. But, uh, thank you very much for gracing us with your presence and spending your evening with us. Thank you, Kevin. I'll, um I think I'll finish there, but, uh, lovely to be here. And, um from the Human Rights Commission. It's been great to be part of this and being part of the collaboration with the parliamentarians with the community organisations and with the community at large. [01:21:00] Uh um, probably I should also thank Richard for, um, being for this evening. So Richard and I just have one more job for you at the end. If you could start our song, that would be fantastic. Thank you very much. [01:21:30] Please rise as you are able. Oh, up for Oh, Um [01:22:00] oh. Oh. Here. [01:22:30] Thank you. Thank you.

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VOICES: John Jakeman
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1890s; 1900s; 1910s; 1940s; 1950s; 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; Alfred Kinsey; Alice Cooper; Anti Springbok tour protest (1981); Aotearoa New Zealand; Arnold Nordmeyer; Auckland; Australian and New Zealand Army Corps (ANZAC); Barcelona; Berhampore; Bistro bar; Boer War; California; Carl Jung; Carmen Rupe; Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Charles Allan Aberhart; Christchurch; Christianity; Club bar (Royal Oak Hotel); Colin Moyle; Constable Street; Cuba Street; Dana de Milo; David Bowie; Disabled Servicemen's Re-establishment League; Dominion Hotel; Dorian Society; Dunedin; Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT); Erich Fromm; Flapper; Forester's Arms Hotel; Fran Wilde; France; Francisco Franco; Germany; God; Grand Hotel; Hagley Park; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); James Smith's; Janis Joplin; John Jakeman; Jon English; Karori; Karori Reservoir; Kinsey Reports; Korean War; Letsbian club (sp? Wellington); Marilyn Waring; Member of Parliament; Mexicali bar (Wellington); Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; Māori; Nairn Street (Wellington); New Zealand Army; New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF); New Zealand Labour Party; Newtown; Newtown School; Parliament buildings; Porirua Mental Hospital; Powder Puff (referred to as the Powder Poof, Wellington); Queen's City (Wellington); RNZAF Base Shelly Bay; Railway Tavern; Raumati; Regent Tavern; Royal Oak Hotel; STI; Sigmund Freud; Spain; Springbok rugby tour (1981); Stonewall riots (1969); Stuart Cameron; Tavern bar (Royal Oak Hotel); The Balcony / Le Balcon; The Joy of Sex (book); Thomas Cameron; Toledo bar (Royal Oak Hotel); Trentham Military Camp; United Kingdom; United States of America; Vietnam War; Wainuiomata; Wairarapa; Wallaceville House (Upper Hutt); Wellington; Wellington City Library; Wellington Free Kindergarten Association; Wellington Railway Station; Wellington Regional Hospital; World War 1; World War 2; acceptance; activism; amphetamines; arts; aversion therapy; babysitting; bar queens; barber; barman; bars; beating; beats; birth name; bisexual; bog queens; boxing; brothels; cats bar; cheese; children; church; cinema; closeted; clothing; conversion / reparative therapy; crime; cross dressing; cruise ship; cruising; dance; demon (undercover police); depression; discrimination; dress up; dressed up; dresses; drugs; effeminate; elocution lesson; engagement; entrapment; faggot; family; farming; fear; feminism; flamboyant; freedom; gay; gay liberation movement; gloves; gonorrhea; granny / aunty; hair; hairdressing; hand movements; hat; heroin; heteronormativity; hit; holding hands; homeguard; homophobic violence; homosexual; homosexual law reform; horse; hunting; hunting lesbian; idealism; institutionalised homosexuality; internal stigma; internalised homophobia; internet; jeweler; jewellery; journalism; judgement; kissing; language; lavender trousers; law; lesbian; limp-wristed; march; marriage; mental illness; military; mincing; miscarriage; mon mari; monogamy; murder; my hat; name change; newspapers; oppression; pansy; persecution; pervert; pig hunting; pocket money; police; poof; poofter; property rights; psychiatric hospital; psychiatric treatment; public affection; public display of affection (PDA); public toilet; public transport; queer; queer bashing; raids; refugee; relationships; religion; rural; sailor; self-evident; sex work; sexual revolution; sexuality; ships; shoes; single beds; sissy; slow dance; smuggle; special friends; sprung; stables; tea party; the other side; theatre; theatrical; toasted sandwich; tram; transexual; transgender; transvestism; transvestite; undercover police; violence; voice; watchmaker; wedding; wharves; white feather; wig; wine; women's liberation movement
DATE: 13 May 2017
YEAR: 2017
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast John Jakeman talks about growing up in Wellington in the 1950s, working at the Royal Oak tavern in the 1970s, police persecution, homosexual law reform and marriage.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, my name is John Jake. I was born in Wellington, New Zealand. Um, my family were always based in the southern suburbs of, um, Wellington, so I lived in Newtown in my early years. In fact, my, uh, first home there is a tiny boy was in Constable Street, Newtown. My father had a watchmaker and jewellery business there. My mother had been raised in, so we had strong, um, familial ties and extended family [00:00:30] ties to South Wellington. Yeah. And what year were you born? 1947. So this year? 70 years old. Yeah. So can you recall what it was like just coming out of World War two? Do you have any early memories of that? Yes, I can, because I went to Newtown school. Um, we had, um quite a few Greek refugee kids, Um, who had, um, come to New Zealand because of New Zealand action at the beginning of the war in Cyprus and other parts of [00:01:00] Greece. Um, and they had been because they had helped New Zealand soldiers and that when the Germans counter invaded, um, they were given special condition to come to New Zealand. So But all the boys um, at school, we always like to boast about what our father did in the war. And, um, I found that, um, I keep coming up against a brick wall. Dad and mum about that. It was not something they wanted to discuss at all. I found out later that Dad actually had, of course, been conscripted into the army. [00:01:30] They'd taken them over the from the Trentham training camp, but the convoy truck went over the edge and went flying down into the ravine. Several young men were killed, I believe. But Dad, um, suffered virtually a broken back. So, um, he was, um, no, not fit for overseas action. So he's part of the home guard. They lived in, um, number 14, Constable Street. And they received the envelopes, um, through the [00:02:00] letter box with the white feathers. They had a lot of verbal abuse because my two brothers were born during the war. So to see a wife, young wife walking around with a pram, two baby boys and a husband on her arm, even though he was in home guard uniform, Um, people? Yes. When their own husbands and brothers and fathers had been gone. Um it wasn't pleasant. So for my family, um, staunchly labour and anti-war. Anyway, um, it wasn't a pleasant time, [00:02:30] but yeah, boys used to always post about where their father was if they were in a camp, you know, prisoner war camp, that sort of thing. Can you Can you recall what impact? Uh, those, uh, white feathers had on your dad? I think it was terrible. I think that, um for dad, he was a real man's man. He was a hard man. Um, and, uh, one of the I still that you'd say no. Dad knew how to look after himself. He'd been a trained boxer. And in fact, he was the official timekeeper for the New Zealand Boxing [00:03:00] Association. Right up almost till he died. So being a watchmaker and jeweller, and that's how that came about. He got training with disabled servicemen, Disabled Serviceman's League as a watchmaker and jeweller, So he had his own jewellery, watchmaker and jewellery shop in Newtown for many, many years when I was a little boy. So he, um it was horrible. It was horrible for Dad. And, um, I think very, very demoralising because everybody wanted to do their bit, you know, King and country. Yes. [00:03:30] So if we were to go back and look at the records, um, we wouldn't find a a Jake watchmaker, would. He, um, was known as Tom Cameron Thomas. William Cameron. Um, however, he didn't change his name by deed. Poll to Cameron. Um, until 1967 I believe at the instigation of Arnold, nor my dad was very active in the Labour Party. And it was Arnold that said, Tom, we actually need to really clear this up because we don't want a a scandal about [00:04:00] who is this man, really? And, uh, so, really, my father was technically Thomas, William Jake most of his life. But in 1967 he he did change his name to formally to Cameron as a family name. However, we had all been born prior to that, we were all registered as Cameron. It's just the way things were then. I think, and so at some point, you you've changed your your name. Yes, I did. Uh, I changed my name in my late thirties. I was contemplating [00:04:30] marriage, and I eventually did marry a very lovely lady. Um and I did, um, decide that if I was going to have Children, I'd found out about this name change. We we were brought up not knowing about it. It was at one of those skeletons in the family closet. Um, and, um I thought, Well, this is a bit ridiculous. Why? We were wandering around being called Cameron when we're not. And, um, I decided that I wanted to be John Jake, So, yeah, but prior to that, as I said, I, I had earlier been called Stuart Cameron changed [00:05:00] it to John Cameron, then John. Jake. So for friends, it's been a bit of a journey, but, uh, I feel a lot better about myself for it. And you mentioned marriage. So how would you kind of identify in terms of your sexuality? Um well, right from a very little boy. I was what, you know, a sissy little boy. And I loved all those sort of things of that. My mother was very social, and she was with, um, all kinds of societies, you know, one free kindergarten [00:05:30] and united mothers and all kinds of, um, leagues and on hospital board. So of course, she did a lot of entertaining and entertain entertaining of women. So tea parties with the trolley and the whole And, of course, Dad having a watchmaker jewellers, the very best of China. Um, they were all wonderful bakers, and so I loved to hover around that and see what they're wearing. And I love to spy on their conversations. And of course, they'd say, Go outside and play And I would hide [00:06:00] just through there at the door and sort of listen and eavesdrop, And you learned their little coded language and they would say things like, um oh, have you seen, um, the lately and I go no and say, Oh, she's looking interesting. Very interesting. Hm. Quite interesting. Oh, how are they going to cope with that? And I began to realise that interesting meant, of course, pick some not too welcome. Baby was on the [00:06:30] way or a, you know, a little afterthought. You know, that sort of thing. But I loved, um I've always loved that sort of, um, the way they were dressed in 19 fifties, the hats and all that sort of thing. And I think everybody around me, they they all knew and they knew, You know that You hear someone comments. He should have been a girl and that sort of comment, and then it never really worried me. Can you recall any coded language say, for homosexual or gay? How did they describe the other side? [00:07:00] He's yes, he's the other side. That was just said. Oh, and everyone knew, um, or they say, Oh, he's got special friends and they go, Oh, yes, you know, And, um, of course, you know, you had to use things always, uh, a pansy and that but they didn't say that as a derogative. That was that was just a like Now you might say, you know, he's gay or, uh, what have you? I mean, it's it's all changed. I mean, once [00:07:30] upon a time, even as a gay man, you would never use the quer word or in heaven for bad a faggot word. And I must say I as a gay man, I will only accept it on my terms. People use those terms around me because, hm. You know, I remember a time as I said to you earlier. It hasn't always been fashionable to be a gay person, male or female. So? So what? What term would you prefer? Um Oh. I refer to myself [00:08:00] as gay and, um yeah, you know people. Yes. I don't mind. You know, as I say, it's good to be on. Uh, my, uh, with my OK as it were, you know? I mean, so you I've got lots of really great straight male friends, and I'm very dear to me, and they are very special friendships. And they're hard people, you know, pig hunting and all the whole thing where I live. That's what you know, I was in for many years. And, um so I have some very good [00:08:30] friends from those days, and we still contact. They would they would be very protective and defensive of me if, you know, they thought anything was going on. Um, and they know that we have a real mutually trusting relationship, friendship and their wives. And they adore me and their close friends, too. Um, but they might say, Oh, yes, I'll they get. That's fine. There's no problem. I'm not precious about it. I'm not precious about it. No, it's, You know, you don't walk around waiting to be offended. [00:09:00] Do you? Or shouldn't do so That coded language about, say, playing for the other side or on the other side? Was that the what 19 fifties was? See, I was born in 1947 so I sort of became aware of all this Sort of like 1955 56. Um, that was when you know, But then I was about five or six years old, seven years old, And it was then I started to experiment with dressing up myself. You know, um, every family had a dressing up box, [00:09:30] and, um, grandmothers and and different people in the family would, um you know, I don't need this old fox fur anymore. Or this funny old hat that was last, you know, year season, whatever. And we would have this wonderful box, which every now and again we were allowed to get it out and do dress ups. And of course, it didn't. It was, regardless of, um, all kids did it. Little straight little boys and everybody all dressed up as different things. I like dressing up, of course, in, [00:10:00] um, mum's old shoes. She had her size 3 ft, so, you know, typical. She was, um you know, uh, a flapper in her day. So, of course, a tiny feet. So of course they fitted very well. And, um, and just putting on all that and traps around the house and having fun. And Mom never batted an eyelid. And in fact, um, we sort of enter into it. I'd come out to the kitchen wearing all this and with my sister, and we'd all be doled up and mum would, um oh, you know, I've got two ladies [00:10:30] visiting me today, and, um, would you like a glass of cordial, you know, And it was great fun. Um, and then I started to want to do it outside. And so, um, Mum wouldn't get back from the shop. You know where dad was till about 55. 30. So I would get home from school, And, um, by about 3. 30 I'd rush to the dress up box rush out with, um I always have a little bit of pocket money. And for [00:11:00] a penny, you could get a ride down to the, um hospital Wellington Hospital on the tram. And so I'd get on the tram because there would be all these people coming back from the zoo or whatever to go back downtown and I'd get into the ladies' compartment. There was always a ladies' compartment in the trams. Men did not go in there. And, um because the ladies would be dolled up in those days, You know, the whole twin set the gloves, the whole thing, and, uh, we'd zoom off on the tram, the conductor would come around and [00:11:30] because I would put on a persona. And then when I got down to the, um hospital, I'd cross the crossing. You know, cars would stop, you know, and I'd wait and catch the tram back up. And the idea was, get home, get the gear off. And because Mom didn't really want me, I don't think, but I've got a shrewd idea. They knew. They must have known. But I would, um, get on the tram to go back, and I can remember one instance, uh, I obviously used to I would get [00:12:00] so into the fantasy. I would talk to myself in those conversations. So I was talking about earlier as I'd overheard, you see, so I'd be talking to myself. It would be a two person conversation in my mind, so I'd be going so and so It's interesting. My hat Would that be a fact? All those old Kiwis, you know, fancy that. And then this in what I thought was a lady's voice. And I could still remember these ladies sitting opposite me. And they're all dressed up with those little hats with the little veils down, [00:12:30] you know, and Bunches of fruit on top or a bird. You know, 19 fifties, a full thing, and you'd see them kind of looking at each other and kind of smiling and thinking, My goodness, you know, my hat, as they would say in those days, you know, And then because I'd get off trailing my dress behind me because it was too too long for me. And, um, yes, I must have looked to real sight, but that was, um Yeah, that that was my earliest recollection [00:13:00] of other little boys at school. Didn't do that. And if they saw me, I didn't give a damn. You know, innocence is bliss, you know, I just had no idea that it was This was unusual. It was just something I did. And of course it was, um it was a real attention grabber and I love that, too. So So did anyone recognise you? I think they did. I said my mother was very well known in the shop, and they would see me down at the shop playing, and because sometimes you had to come home back from school and they'd [00:13:30] say, We want you to stay at the shop today because we're going to be doing something else, you know. So, yes. I mean, when Newtown in those days was a community very much a community, there were families that have lived there for generations. It underwent a total change in character in the late 19 fifties. Um, just a lot of the old families moved out and those houses became flats. And yeah, So why do you think your family was so accepting? I mean, if if if they knew this was going on, where did that acceptance come from? It's [00:14:00] only in later life that I realised that because, um, as I told you, I did go away and live overseas, and when I came back, I think it must have been by this time. I was in my mid twenties and I was wearing clothes that I had bought overseas, which were pretty out there by New Zealand standards, even in the seventies. Um, and also my mannerisms. I found that they never blinked. And it was only later on that things started to come out about that in the family. There had been other men like this [00:14:30] and, um what they called theatrical. They didn't attach a homosexual gay label to it. I think they just thought, Oh, isn't he a card? Isn't he funny? And his friends and, gosh, they are They funny when they play the band, you and they all dressed up and they, you know, singing at parties entertaining People were starved for that sort of thing. So New Zealand was a pretty grey sort of place. And not all families even had a radio in those days. And [00:15:00] we're talking about before the first World War. Um, these were uncles of my mother in and, um so, um, I don't know how many, but I do know that, um, one or two of them were part of a group and they would get around Wellington singing at people's parties and performing at pubs by invitation. Yes, just, you know, And of course, people just loved it because people starve for live entertainment. Especially if it was what it was for free. [00:15:30] And the the boys would be having lots of fun doing it. And the onlookers loved it, too, because it was a card. It was funny. It was Yes. Yeah. So this would have been Edwardian Wellington? Yeah. Edward in Wellington. And those, um, boys? Well, several of them died in the first World War. Yes. And so that history kind of went away, But my there was in living memory of my mother. Yes, [00:16:00] of course it was. So Yeah, because my mother was born in 19 09. So, yeah. So she she grew up seeing them dressed up. And the fan? Yes. Lots of fun. Hm. So there was family acceptance. What about, um, within yourself? I mean, did you not totally, Gareth? No I. I struggled with it. I would have loved to have been straight. I used to really wish I was, um and [00:16:30] because I wanted just to be like everybody else. Not because I wanted, um a boring old life as a heterosexual. Now I wanted family and Children. I just loved Children. I'm powerfully maternal, paternal by nature. I love babies and small Children and caring for them. And I know a lot about it because I've grown up with all that. And I was often babysitting as I was growing up because they neighbours and knew that I was good with little babies and Children. So II, I just today [00:17:00] I saw a man. He's 45. I used to babysit him when he was little. And so, um, Brooklyn. Sorry. So I loved family, and I wanted that more than anything else. Um and so I turned to religion thinking that that would help me, Um, that I've got if you know, if Jesus would only, you know, and it never happened. And I genuinely went through a terrible dark decade. Really? [00:17:30] Where? Um Yes, from probably around about 1966 up until the mid seventies, where I certainly was not self accepting. I certainly was not prepared to accept it. I was I would go through long, long periods of, um, celibacy and then eventually, just craving some kind of physicality, some kind of affection I would succumb, and, um, then I'd rack myself over it and [00:18:00] beat myself up badly about it and and beg forgiveness, you know, and, um, and torment myself over it. I mean, don't forget. I mean, I spent 4. 5 years living in Barcelona, and, um, you know, I was a good head and shoulders taller than everybody else around me, and, um, and good looking with us. And, um, I would often be pursued, you know, you'd realise someone was following you from the bus following you to your door, hovering around, and and [00:18:30] you'd be in the way. They looked at you, you know, They say in the song Spanish eyes, you would see it and you'd realise Oh, and I would be tempted like mad. As I said every now and again, I would succumb, I think. Oh, you know, to hell with it, you know? Yeah. I mean, we all have a right to affection if we want it. And sexuality, and I would rationalise it. But then I would This is what you know. Being staunchly Christian can do it. No, [00:19:00] you've really disappointed us all up here. You know, God's very angry, You know that. Yes, I still Yeah. I must say, uh, sometimes have my little moments with that one. So around the same time. So we're talking. I'm thinking about, like, 1963 when Charles A was killed in park, uh, by a group of youths. Did that have any impact on you Because you would have been a teenager at that point? Yes. [00:19:30] Um, and of course, you'd hear the way the adults talked about it. Um, because that was there. Now that was different. You see, like there was, um a man was murdered in the street. There was a cottage at the top of the street, but notorious. And there was a Dutch guy that it was his territory. Gay fella. I just see him around the town. Big, strong looking fella. Uh, but that was his place. And, um, and other gay people need to stay away. You know, he would shoot them away. Get them away. This was his [00:20:00] his place. He got murdered up there. Um, when those sort of things happened, um, and gay beatings. I think people thought well, they're perverts, and they deserved it. That was now different. That was different from being a pansy funny person at a party that was different from you know, cups of tea and tiny cakes. And, oh, isn't he entertaining? And he's so intellectual, wasn't he? And isn't he funny? No, this was different. These are [00:20:30] sort of people that hung around Wellington Wharf. Haunted the railway station, hung around public toilets in the library, You know, that sort of thing. So the public generally know very anti it. It was like, got what he deserved. Even though some of the poor things were murdered. I'm beaten horribly, Yes. And even notable people parliamentarians that got caught out. I mean, I remember Carmen when she [00:21:00] said, uh, because we used to talk about it, you know, and, uh, she said, Oh, there's quite a few of them in parliament. And next minute she was called up to Parliament to address them on it. Yes, and one of my friends went with her as part of her retinue. They really got themselves full dolled up to go to Parliament. They were gonna make They knew the cameras would be there. This is in the, uh, late seventies. Yeah, yeah. Yes, it was Yes. Yes. I can't remember the exact years. I'm not good at years. Yeah, I still remember [00:21:30] it, though. Yeah, As I said, one of my closest friend. Yeah. So just heading back to the sixties, Where would you meet People like you. You you were saying? I mean, you you mentioned a couple of places, like the the Toilets and that. So that's the kind of the the beach, the confusing area. It's funny how gay people had categories amongst themselves, and it was based around where they liked to meet men. So you had, um, bar queens, and they hang around the bars, [00:22:00] and there were well known bars where things are a bit flexible. Um, and, um, you knew that there were those kind of bisexual closet males married very often. Um, who would be there? Um, And if you and you, you had to be discreet, but you had to have a way of letting them know mannerisms or something you wore that made them think, Oh, he's a little bit because remember, this was New Zealand back then. Um, and [00:22:30] that where they would realise. Oh, he's not quite like, run of the mill, and they would twig. Um, So you had your bar queens, and then you had, um as we were saying earlier, Public toilet, Bob Queens. They all had names. Everybody used to know their name, and it was based on either a physical characteristic. Like if they're a little bit lame, it'd be all hobbies down there. Yes. Or you know, the Flying Dutchman? Yes, Onion Head. You know, because one guy was going bald, he used to run a raw onion into [00:23:00] Pete in the hope of growing the hair back. So onion head and long, many years after he had long stopped doing that experiment, he was still onion head. Um, and they would have their favourite places. Um, but then, you know, there was beaches and the wharves railway station, those sort of place anywhere where the public were coming and going and that, Yeah, you know it. It's, um it was very much hit and miss kind of thing. [00:23:30] You know, the people weren't so what would it say? Gays didn't really look so much for relationships then because it really wasn't acceptable to families very often, But they did do it. They did do it. Yeah. So what were some of the things that you did to make yourself kind of recognisable? to other people. Um, well, I was I've always been, um, self evident and that with my mannerisms and I have a high voice. And for that, I had elocution training. So [00:24:00] I spoke in a way which, to most people, was effeminate in New Zealand. Um, if you print, I don't talk like it now, but vowel sounds, um, people say you should be in the theatre, John, um, you know that that would set you aside or set you apart is Oops. There's something going on there. So, um, I found that, um, there was no need to really advertise too much, but don't forget, we lived in the era of the limp wrist, lavender, trouser, pansy, [00:24:30] mincing down manor Street That you saw that quite a bit. Those have all gone now. You never see that the min and pansy with the shoulder bag? No, they're not around anymore. That was the way people advertised. You had to be pretty blatant. And that way, um, if you went somewhere like a beat like we were talking about earlier, an onlooker who could be injured would see you arrive and think, Oh, there's one. That's a that's certain [00:25:00] and things can happen quite quickly. Yes. So, in a way, it was wearing your heart on your shoulder and getting out there and letting everyone know. Yes, but in my case, um, I know people all and being a ladies hairdresser, you were in the industry, and people knew you were, um And when you're mixing with ladies and women, um, all the time your conversation style is around that sort of style as well, So they know. Oh, this is a man that's used to being around [00:25:30] the ladies. Yeah, that So that set you aside as well. You know, people knew. Yeah, and And somebody commented to me, um, a while ago about Wellington being known as the Queen City. Oh, very much. In fact, it always made us laugh when Auckland suddenly declared itself the Queen City based all around its harbour. And it's wonderful yachting and and that's great. But we were always the Queen City and always had been going right back to Victorian times. Don't forget, Wellington [00:26:00] was the city of brothels, and I mean Taranaki Street. Um street. Um uh, yes, right up to street. The old was lined with with brothels And so, um, there was so as with that goes the other side of it, too. If men weren't that interested in women, there was plenty of the other as well. And, um, you know, you could always go out and find a lonely [00:26:30] sailor. Don't forget Wellington Harbour when I was young and prior to that, and you see old photos, the harbours were sailing vessels. They were all sailors, and they were looking for a good time. We used to have some fabulous time. Fabulous parties, American ships coming in. Brits, French, fabulous. The the streets would be thronging with them. They'd all be in uniform French boys with their pompoms on their tops, you know? And what have you and the Yanks? And of course, you know, the coffee bar culture. [00:27:00] You know, um, Marie and all those places and you'd go in and and parties and a street and all those sort of streets around here, too. And so people had parties after the pubs closed, and if the ship was important, they'd always have three or four or five or more guys from the ship. Great fun. You know, I, I I've lost the thread of the question. You asked. Really? We were just talking about, um, how Wellington used to be known as the Queen City. Oh, yes. And so, um, there was [00:27:30] always, um, a lot of, um And, um, so you saw people who were obviously dressed up, as we call it, um, and, um, wigs and the whole drama or whatever. Um and so it was very like it was very much in your face. You know, you're walking up Cuba street, you know, or anywhere. Um, you would see, um, trans and gay men, As I said, the mincing pansy. So [00:28:00] And Wellington was always considered quite a safe city for that Christchurch. Not funny enough. And we need and even less Auckland. Um, remember going up there in the early seventies. And that was at that time when Wellington still was very much that city that we're just talking about? No, Not like Wellington. No. Wellington has always been pretty blatantly, uh, blatant about it. Now. I think it goes right back to that era that I talked about earlier. Where I mean, everyone knew really what was [00:28:30] going on in those private hotels and places, You know that lined the streets down there in the central city. Yeah. So how did the general population, um, react to, say, the mining pansy or the or the Oh, well, I can. I've seen them being set upon a group of young guys come along and next minute, jeering and yelling. And the next minute full on, um, I mean myself. I was studying hairdressing at the time at our hairdressing academy [00:29:00] at 43 Lower Cuba Street. And, um, myself and the other students of hairdressing there was probably only a couple of guys, but most of them were girls. We'd all go out, you know, after a day and you'd get, um they'd see guys coming towards you, Um, on James Smith's corner or along Manor Street. There would they'd see you coming along with these girls yakking away about what had happened during the day, and they would deliberately shoulder you off the pavement and tell you get out [00:29:30] of the way. Um, I've been walking along Man Street on a Friday night, and that, of course, was the busiest, busiest night of the week. That was all the shops were open till nine o'clock. The streets were very much like a European street. People thronging It was I loved going downtown on a Friday night. I just shopping. And what have you but also to meet friends? What have you? And, um uh, a truck went past me on Manor Street, A high truck and the guy on me loudly after [00:30:00] first bellowing at me that I was a puff or something and it got me one. And everyone around me on the pavement laughed. And I remember that thinking how horrible. You know, I'd never encountered that. It it went on. I can remember people just like in pubs, you know? I mean, I've been in a bar myself, the Regent Tavern, and had guys come over to the table you're drinking and tell you to get Get out, you know, and go away is not for your type. I've been kicked out [00:30:30] of the of a hotel for being obviously gay. I wasn't doing anything. I just turned up and was told your type are not allowed in here. It was a grand hotel. Yes. Your your lot are not allowed in here. But I remember in the region Yes, and sitting upon us and next minute, a table of very, um, well presented transvestites who were not obviously transvestites. They came rushing over. And did they deal to those guys? I've never seen a [00:31:00] group of real, quite strong men dispatch so quickly. Yeah, it was amazing. Yeah, absolutely amazing. You know, um, but that was good, because that shows solidarity. Because it wasn't always mostly the tranny hated the gays, the queers, as I called them. And they called the Dorian Club the Queer Club and queer. Don't forget was a bad word. I mean, I myself, I've been admonished strongly in those days by actually referring to the Queer [00:31:30] Club myself. It slipped out, but from other homosexuals, um, who were very obvious. But they did not like that term. Um and likewise, a lot of gay men did not like men dressed up the drag queens that did not like them. I think it was jealousy, actually. On both. Well, yeah, I don't know. Jealousy, perhaps? Yeah, it was, like very, very divided. Whereas now it's quite peculiar. It's It's quite the reverse. I find that a lot of the gay guys [00:32:00] they really love the trannies, they they celebrate them and, um, it's changed. Yeah. Yes. And no doubt it will change again too. We always go in cycles. I think at the moment we're going through a very, very good era for gay people. Um, I never, ever have any trouble now at all. Um, ever And, um, it's quite celebrated. It's quite open. I find straight people talk about the wedding. They went to where the girls got married [00:32:30] or the two guys got married or my son's marrying his partner. And what have you it? It can change. And we're seeing that even in America, there is a swinging around. Laws can go backwards and I. I think it's wonderful where we're at at the moment in New Zealand and Long may at last, um, and we can still take it for granted, but it can swing back the other way. Yeah, Yes, I want to take you back to the 19 sixties. So when you're [00:33:00] when you're a teenager, I'm fascinated that nowadays, um, teenagers can go online and they can discover themselves, and they can learn about a whole range of things. But back then, in the sixties, how did you find out about homosexuality? like I mean, we did. Where did that information come from? Yes, well, that's an interesting point, because you used to hear a lot. Um, Gareth of the I thought I was the only one in the world, and I did go through a little [00:33:30] bit of that because my parents and my family, we moved to, um up the coast to and, uh, when I was about 11 and up there was a totally different environment for me in Newtown. As I said earlier in this talk, uh, quite different, you know, feeling to it. Um, they're far more parochial. And, um, where is it? I didn't feel people were bigoted or anything, but it was just different. And, um, it wasn't discussed, [00:34:00] but I could discuss it with Mum. Funny enough, my mother was ahead of herself there, I think her own life experience and those things I touched on earlier. So I could always talk to Mum about heterosexual sexuality. Um, all those things that a boy wants to hear about, You know, um, I am curious, um, and and gayness, too. And she would touch on it anyway, sometimes, I think because she knew what was going on. She knew the struggle. She could see the religious [00:34:30] thing. She was quite worried about that. She was quite worried about that. And she could see it wasn't making me happy. And that I'd come back feeling worse than what I, you know, had when I left home. Um, and she was trying to, I think mentor me through it, but yes, an answer to your question there. And there wasn't a lot of discussion about it either, you know? And they weren't the reference books and things like that. I can remember, you know, reading a book which was very celebrated. Um, some years later, of [00:35:00] course, it was called The Joy of Sex. And I thought, Oh, this will have something about it. Oh, and it was awful. The section on gay sexuality. It was horrible. It was a perversion, and it was unnatural. And, um, it even spoke about certain case studies they've done and how you know. Really? Yeah, it was. And all this. So it didn't make you feel very good about yourself. The Kinsey report was marvellous because that really blew everyone away, so to [00:35:30] speak. Um, it was very, very much you know, something that came out with figures that showed, like this one in 10 is an obvious homosexual, but probably there's another five of them who are part time and or closeted, and they probably just a further one or two which have experimented in other times at different stages of their lives, never gone back to it. But I've certainly done something about it. And that was like, Wow! And they said that was definite, [00:36:00] that those figures were based on years and years of study of an Anglo Saxon culture. I must say it was very Anglo Saxon based, quite a different story in Latin countries or Asian countries. Um, yeah. So, um, they those are the ways you found out. And for me, um, spending those years in Spain from age 21 till I was 25. We, of course, living under the Franco regime, [00:36:30] Um, and a very Catholic militarist country, something unlike we could ever imagine in New Zealand. Um, and the very repressive against obvious homosexuality homosexuals were carted off, actually to special camps to be dealt with. Um, but on the But there was so much hypocrisy because, uh, the virginity in women was very highly steamed. If we went out in a group with [00:37:00] girls, you went in a group. Always. That's the only way the family would feel comfortable about it. So the girls were chaperoning each other. Um, and it was all pretty innocent. Naive stuff, flirting and a lot of carry on homosexuality was never ever discussed. Um, if you saw someone that was obviously homosexual, it was like derided. But the the hugely funny thing about it was that probably I'll be careful here. Probably 75% of males [00:37:30] at that time had homosexual experiences because it was about the only way available. Unless you went, you know, had the money to go with a good prostitute lady prostitute. It was the only way to have an outlet. So it was kind of, um, you know, something was there, but we didn't acknowledge it. So cinemas and and again parks places like that, you couldn't fail. You couldn't always tonnes of it in Spain. [00:38:00] So when I came back here with that Christian thing and feeling all wonky about it, I was still pretty feeling not very happy about, you know, Stewart, the homosexual and people would say to me, I mean, you're gay, aren't you? And I go, Oh, not really. You know, I thought, Well, no, I'm not going to admit to that. Um, the best thing that ever happened was I got a job at the Royal Oak Hotel as a barman. And, of course, there were several bars there. There was an upstairs bar called the Toledo, [00:38:30] which was for out of town travellers sales reps, et cetera. And it went on, you know, you could meet people, you know, And, um but it was very discreet and and and in a very, um, nice environment Downstairs, however, there was a public bar which is one of the biggest public bars in New Zealand. And that's where the workman and the Navy drank and certainly, um, obvious [00:39:00] pansies and trannies would get sent up gutless in there. But you never fail to miss, because once the men had had a few drinks, a bit of fun, and, uh, you'd see them disappear and realise, Oops. So someone's hit someone's, you know, scored. Um, Then there was another bar which was openly gay, and that was called the, um Oh dear. Oh, No, no. Yes, the tavern. That's right, the tavern bar. And [00:39:30] that really was for, you know, straight gay guys and the the the female hangers ons, you know, great fun. And then, of course, there was the bistro. And that was really sailors, Um, and drag queens prostitutes? Yes. And, uh, people came from all over the Lower North Island to visit the place just to see what it was like. You saw funny little farm and farmer groups of husbands and wives that come to Wellington for some [00:40:00] conference, but they went to the bistro to have a look People knew. And, of course, there was a certain hour of the evening around seven o'clock when the Queens would start arriving. Everyone wanted to be sitting down and watching that door as they came in because they would be dressed up to the nines. You know, full nineties seventies regalia, back combed hair and the false eyelashes and glitter. And the whole Yes. Hm. Spectacular. Spectacular. [00:40:30] Well, for me getting a job in the club bar, which is another little internal bar. Um, I. I had a guy, um, working with me who was quite obviously gay. Um we actually really turned that around, and suddenly we had people coming in there who were also gay. Um, and but also a lot of straight people. And it was a very, very nice atmosphere. For the first time in my life, I began to realise it was cool to feel comfortable about yourself. [00:41:00] And I remember a friend saying to me, John, just give to us. It's what you are. Just enjoy your life, John. And I thought that's true. And he said, Just you know, Jesus loves you. It's why you're you're still alive. You haven't been struck by lightning, just, you know, because I had confided to him he's deceased. Unfortunately, he was only 23 when he died. Um, another one of all those ones that died of heroin [00:41:30] overdoses in the day Wellington was awash with it at the time. You know, Mr Asia thing and all that going on, um and it was fashionable just like me now, but, um yeah, so I started to really Then get informed. I started to go to parties as a gay man and really have a good time. Yeah, great fun. It was run happiest time of my life. Really there? Yeah. So? So when were you working at the Royal Oak? Um, that would have been, um, as I say, I'm [00:42:00] not too good on years. It would have been probably 1975 76. I've actually got a reference from them with the dates on it. So at home somewhere. Yeah, but it was It was really an eye opener for me. And I found that people, um, were quite and straight people quite keen just to talk to you about yourself and about themselves. And it was like, you know, ladies hairdressers, and they always say, You know, people must talk to you about the most amazing things they do with [00:42:30] their too Well, in those days, not now. It's totally different. But in those days, a guy would come in at about two o'clock and he'd stay till about eight or nine o'clock and just sipping away and yacking away. And you got to know them all. You got to know what they drank. You know, you there at the bar, You know, that sort of thing. Hm. So describe to me where the royal oak was and and how many people were there on an average night. It was always thronging, always thronging. As I said, it was [00:43:00] a destination. It's a lower Cuba street, Um, at a junction there with Manor Street. Um, just opposite the on the other side of the James Smith corner. And James Smith's Corner was a great place for people to meet because all the buses came past James Smith. So people would say, Meet you outside James Smith's Everybody. And So it was a a great, and the hotel itself was a fabulous looking building, and it's just a terrible shame that they demolished it because the Hulk they've got there now is just ghastly [00:43:30] and and it's so quickly dated and tired, and they tried to turn it into a gay venue, and it was It just didn't work. But the hotel, if it'd be standing now, it would have been just an amazing place to have in the centre of a city because there was wonderful suites upstairs, and I said, all these bars, restaurants, it was just really and classy. It had been there since 18 90 or something. I mean, it was built in that style. It took them three weeks, [00:44:00] I think to demolish it. That's how strongly built it was. It had been built to last like a mausoleum to last forever. But suddenly, you know, all these wonderful buildings were being demolished, Not because of earthquakes or anything. We just get rid of the old buildings, but modern ones there. Yeah. So the mid seventies This is prior to homosexual law reform. Yes. So, with things still on the down low Oh, it was awful. Um, the police were [00:44:30] always driving around in the Holden Kingswood cars. Bored out of their brains most of the time, mostly recruited from places like and, um, no, I idea they didn't get the training like they do now in sociology and and and human the varieties of human being. They were just intolerant of the law was on their side. It was unlawful, and you could be stopped for suspicion of it. So, um, walking along [00:45:00] the street, um, well, that king incident, you wouldn't turn to a cop and say, Look what's just happened to me, Take his number. I'm going. No, that wouldn't happen. And you'd be walking home. Um, sometimes in a of an evening, and they would just stop you Pull over and stop you. Hey, come over here! And Ah, this tiresome routine. And where have you been? I've been at work. Where are you going? What's your work? Where's your address? Who were you talking to? That man down [00:45:30] there? No, I wasn't. We saw you talking to that man. I didn't Trying to get you flustered, trying to get you to lose your temper and stuff. And then they could help you. Because if you said, look, just leave me well alone or whatever, then you they've got you. And of course, some of my friends they got got. And, um, I remember one friend. He he'd been a a rousing and a sharing gang with the woman there. He'd always he was Maori. Lovely fella. Um very, [00:46:00] very, very sissy. And so he'd been just He was a Roy with the woman and the cheering sheds, but he'd come to Wellington to live and and to enjoy his life. And he he was what you'd call a mincing pansy. And I remember this night he got holed up and I was in the the next morning I was in the club bar cleaning up and getting it ready for opening. And next minute there he was in front of me in a terrible state. And, um, he had been hauled up the night before [00:46:30] taken down to the police station, and they'd hit him with rolled up newspapers. And they'd to get him to tell him who he knew and who was coming to the club bar. He he he had told them that he he liked to drink at the club bar because they asked him, Where did you go to drink? And he just said, Oh, the club bar. Oh, and they were trying to get names of other homosexuals because don't forget, homosexual were perverts. And, um, there was that thing with Children, you know? And all that carry on. [00:47:00] Um and they they were hitting him with rolled up newspapers. And then they emptied out his shoulder bag and they found lip salve. And I think they found an eyelash, mascara and a few silly things like that. As I said he was, he was very sissy. Um, and they really they had him then and they got him to write down all the names. And he was just be had himself over it. I I've done something to him. I said, Now, look, this is our secret and you not to tell anyone. [00:47:30] Don't you tell the flatmates. Don't you tell anyone what's happened. Go home, clean yourself up, go to sleep and forget it. Nothing will come of it. I just thought, you know, let it go. He was beside himself because he thought that well, he, you know, he had betrayed all his friends and that sort of thing did go on that sort of thing. Yes. Yeah. I seem to recall, in an interview with, um, Donna de Milo, [00:48:00] um, where she was saying about how the police used to provoke her, and yeah, and then then because she was so tall. Um oh, yes. I remember, uh, I caught a boy. Uh, I had my own business and he was stealing money, and my accountant phoned me, and he said there's, uh, money missing from the takings each week. He said, I can't account for it, and he said It's quite substantial, You know, it was in those days. It was a lot. $50 a week, $20 a week and and he said. [00:48:30] It's it's amounted up to a couple of 1000 he said, Who's been doing the banking every day? And I said, Oh, we got this trainee And I said, He seems to be really good at all, that sort of thing. You'd reconcile the checks and fill in the banking slips in those days and off. You'd go with the banking bag to the bank. He was pocketing it, wasn't he? So anyway, the accountant turned up and he had phoned the police, and suddenly there they were in the shop and I could see this boy was absolutely terrified. The police took him down to the police station, [00:49:00] and then about an hour later, I got a phone call and I said, Um, you know what's happening, And, um, I'm fully expecting him to tell me that. Well, actually, he's confessed. They said, um, he's in a terrible state. Um and, um, he's only, um, 18 or whatever he was, and they said, You're lucky it's not you we're coming up for because he pleaded this whole thing of I'm working with these gay guys and I, uh, you know, got and they just went with us so nothing [00:49:30] came of it. He never even got taken for theft as a servant. Nothing. It was like you deserve it. Yes. And that made me realise that, you know, the police at the time will follow the law just like they did in the 81 tour. They will do what they're told. And I saw that in Spain very much because we were getting to the end of Franco's reign. And, of course, [00:50:00] the old hierarchy. The old regime was was shrinking. It was dying with him. And so people were flexing their muscles for freedom, just as we were in New Zealand. And and particularly the 81 rugby tour you really saw out there? I saw something I had not seen since I've been in Barcelona. That was incredible. Um and, um, people. Yeah, it it wasn't It wasn't nice. No, it wasn't nice, That sort of thing. Yeah. [00:50:30] Mm. You you mentioned just before that, um, the police were using rolled up newspapers. Why would they use rolled up newspapers? I think it was a way of whacking you and making a loud noise, but not actually really leaving a a mark. Yeah, they would whack you, like on the back and on you. You know that? Like that and or on your head. Um, And it didn't leave a Yeah, that was the way it was. Um, and of course, there was AAA huge, um, [00:51:00] amount of covert surveillance around the bars and clubs. You know, a lot of, um What, you called undercover cops. Now, what they were looking for was dope. Um, you know, I had a friend who sold four tabs of LSD to an undercover cop. The cops solicited it and wanted to know, you know, in the bistro bar at the Royal Oak Hotel. That young guy got four years for that. Yeah, um, but as far as the gays were concerned, and I think that's where this what I was explaining before [00:51:30] they wanted to know who were gay and they wanted to know about their activities. Um, it was like this hidden society, you see, And so you had people coming into the bar and people got to know them. They Oh, he's a demon, you know? And they would be taking note of who was there and, um yes, asking names, you know who's that guy over there and that sort of thing, you know? So, yes, and I remember, like, one night at [00:52:00] the Dorian Club. Now, the Dorian Club was a membership only club for gentlemen. Gay gentlemen. You It was by subscription only, um, and you had to be recommended and introduced by a friend. Um, that's how serious it was. They took it that, you know, it not be perceived as something criminal, but of course, it was a gay man's club. Now it was all by today. Stems pretty corny on a Sunday afternoon because there was nothing happened in New [00:52:30] Zealand on Sunday afternoons. It was wine and cheese and classical music. Mostly it was the older gays would go down there for that, and it was a chance to chat. And, yeah, wine and cheese and classical music. Um, Then on a Friday night after nine o'clock, when the shops all closed, there was a disco night, you know, disco and, um, you you you you were admitted and they were always very careful about who came in because it had [00:53:00] to be no minor and all this you had to be with a member, and they would have a stereo. No booze, no alcohol. Um, just soft drinks. It was all pretty corny, but it was a chance for gay men to chat and laugh and dance and have a coffee and a toasted sandwich and all good fun that got raided several times on one rate, though they carted everybody out, they were all appeared. They were held in the cells over the weekend on [00:53:30] the Monday morning they were before the magistrate. Many of them Oh, they all had their names published and they many of them lost their jobs. Half the window dresses of James Smith and Kirk and stains lost their jobs because that was it. You were a criminal, and it was a criminal activity. And one or two of the people there were, um and of course, that was really something they loved. Yes, if they could get hold [00:54:00] of that sort of thing. Um, one of the fellas I knew he was an older guy. He would have been in his fifties, and he had quite a womanly look about him. And he loved dressing up. He was very good at it. And being English, and he distinctly English tone. Um, they never sprung that he was a man and he just walked out. He was just considered an English woman who just happened to be visiting the Dorian Club. I was laughed about that with a Scottish partner. [00:54:30] Yes, really? Quite funny, but, um yeah, so that was the era we lived in. Um, you know, it It was it was an illegal activity. And you did not have rights under the law, you know, um, yes, if they raided a party for something, Whatever. If you happen to be there and you were gay, you'd go down for that too, you know? Um, yes. And what about entrapment? Did the police try to Yes, they did. Yes, they did. [00:55:00] And people used to talk about it and gossip about it. For example, there were well known beats, and especially around, you know, some of those public places the library, outdoor toilets, you know, and place like and I'd say, Be very, very careful. There's this gorgeous guy down there, and he's very, very leave that to imagination Gareth and not afraid to flaunt it. Watch him. He's a cop. Watch him. And yes, they [00:55:30] did. Yes, they did catch people like that. Yeah. And, um and also, they would raid places like that, too. Yeah, And if you even if just happened to be in the vicinity, I was walking home once past the old town hall. I lived in the central city. I've been to a, um, a dinner party in Oriental Bay, and I was walking along along the sort of wharf part home, you know, still on. Not on the wharf, but, you know, where is now And, um walked down and [00:56:00] thought at the town hall, I'll turn up Cuba Street and home to street where I lived. They had done a raid, and they saw me, and they were determined I was coming with them. Um, it was only through quite stern, staunch talk from me. And luckily, I've got that ability, um, that I didn't and wasn't taken, but, yes, they they they said they'd seen me soliciting. They'd see me approaching men. I said, it's absolute rubbish. I've got people that can vouch [00:56:30] for you that with with me that 20 minutes ago I was at a dinner party and I'm on my way home. And, um, When once they were, But these were cops. They were young guys. Young idiots, you know. And the police had far less accountability then Nowadays, well, look, we know from some of the things that went on police rapes and what have you You know, now it's very different. So so do you think for them it was It was just sport and bored. And, [00:57:00] uh, it was something to go back to the station and say, you know, what have you been doing all night? Oh, well, actually, you know, they had something to write in their notebooks. Hm? Yeah. And it was quite legitimate for them, you know? Good. Give them a hard time. They need it. I mean, as I say, there was so many gay people and obviously gay people in Wellington. It was, as I said earlier, the Queen City. They couldn't fail. Yes. Always. Always sport to be had. Hm. You [00:57:30] were saying earlier about, um, some of the clientele in the bars at the Royal Oak and you mentioned service people, and so was that quite a quite a big component of of the bars. So? So people from the military well, at that time in the seventies. Um, you you had, um a lot of guys that were in the New Zealand Army and in the forces. And, uh, and we had military bases in Wellington, You know, Port Chen and other places. Um, Shelley Bay. [00:58:00] Um, Trent, uh, what have you? Um, they they would come to Wellington to have a bit of a night out, and they they Of course, they knew the gay bars to go to if they were gay. So you often have guys come in that were with the military on one in one way or another. Navy, Air Force, um, army, you know, infantrymen and that. Yeah. And, um, they knew they could go especially in the club bar, Because if someone saw them there, if they were sprung by [00:58:30] someone else at the base, it wasn't an actual gay bar. It wasn't like being in the tavern or in the bistro. Um, mind you in the bistro, you could always get away with saying, Oh, it's just the sightseeing. You know, uh, it's called those queens dressed up. Ha ha ha. You know, um, no. So this was different in the in the, um, club bar and said it was a mixed and quite quite a nice class of people went there, but yeah, yeah, servicemen. [00:59:00] I mean, it's always existed. And it was while I was there, um, about I used to open the bar. I think I can't remember now. It's all those years ago, probably about 11 o'clock. And, um, I'd get down there and I would be cleaning up the bar, getting it all ready, uh, for the opening. And I had quite a little lot of older men that used to come there. Who'd been going there? Don't forget. That place had been a pub since the Victorian era. So [00:59:30] there were men that have been going there since they were young men, and they were now in their seventies and eighties. I had a couple of them who had been at the, um Anyway, um, some of these old fellas were real old things, and they loved to talk amongst themselves about the war, the first World War, mostly. And, um, because these were men that were in their eighties. So they were the first World War, and, um, one old fellow used to come in. He had two walking sticks [01:00:00] He had a beautiful fedora hat and a lovely coat and very tailored looking. And he would He was just a petite man. And he would come in the door of the, uh, bar. It would take him nearly half an hour to really go the like the 20 ft from the door to the bar. By that time, I would have got his drink. And, um, I think he had a rum and clothes and a little short five ounce [01:00:30] beer to wash it down. And I got to know him, and I could see he was He was beautifully spoken. He was obviously, uh, of a an upper class background. And he was he'd been educated, and he told me that he'd been raised in. Um, the and his family were landed people up there, and he used to talk about the lovely parties that his parents attended, and they would go for days sometimes to get to these old homes [01:01:00] out in the countryside and with horses and drys and coaches. In those days, I suppose of that would have been cars and and probably, you know, the early cars and they'd have these wonderful, um, balls and parties at people's homes, and they would stay for 5 to 6 days. And he said that, um, we sort of got to know each other enough that he would sort of let his guard down. And he said, because he was quite, um, what you'd call effeminate by nature, but in a refined way, not in a sissy way. [01:01:30] He had mannerisms, you know, a bit like some of those sort of English types, you know, the hands and facial gestures. And he said that How, um there's a little bit of Sheni used to go on down at the stables. I mean, always found it a reason to disappear from the party or go down to see if the horse was all right. And you got to know that if that, um, you could get down there at the same time that and of course they did. They check the horses, had their oats for the night [01:02:00] and groom them and whatever that you needed to do, check. They were OK, but it was a rendezvous, and he said it wasn't sordid, and it wasn't necessarily what they would have thought of as homosexual, but it was because, you know, even the term homosexual wasn't really known. It was more or less, um, fooling around, fooling around pretty innocent stuff. Probably. Um, they wouldn't be gay by orientation. A lot of them. It was just an outlet. It was [01:02:30] just something you did. And with a with a special mate, you know, and, um and very And as he said, very, very loving And not something you talked about. Um, together. It would when it happened, it happened. And then we forget about it to the next episode. But you didn't forget about it, Of course. And you always contrive to get back together for another episode because it was rather wonderful. And, um yes. And as I said earlier, there was there wasn't [01:03:00] the, um the affection shown, um, day to day, like there is now and touching. And, um, just genuine things that we are now. No. People were much more sto stoical and withheld and did not express themselves, um by, you know, touching even, you know, innocent touching. This wasn't protocol. So these opportunities for loving and holding [01:03:30] and and and and sharing physicality were was wonderful. And so did he also go through the war World War One? Yes, he did. He later on. And I I got to know him really well, he he would come in once or twice a week, Um, because he he he realised he had a mate that he could talk to. And, um, he, of course, was conscripted, um, into the war effort in [01:04:00] the first World War, and he ended up in France. Now, that's when I began to notice that none of the other old vets would talk to him. In fact, he always his posse was right up the other end of the bar. So I used to have to go all the way up his end to serve him and then all the way down to the other way in to serve the others. And, um, when I went to serve them, if I'd been talking to him, they would smile away about him and, uh, you [01:04:30] know, and then one day he told me why I you know, II. I wonder why it was he wasn't with the others because they all love to talk about, you know, the war. And, um, he said to me that soon after he arrived in France. Um, they were taken up to go to the front and a superior officer high ranking, something like a major or something. You know, I don't know for certain, um, recognised [01:05:00] in him that he was a sensitive young lad and had him, um, sequester as aid to camp. So, in other words, he was to, um, keep the officers room or tent or whatever, and care for him. Help make sure his laundry was done and be his aide to camp. And so he never really saw frontline action. And it was pretty obvious. Well, that it was a homosexual [01:05:30] relationship, and, um, but had to be very discreet, But it was a homosexual relationship, and it was obvious to the other soldiers as well, because they could see he never actually went to the front where they all were. And it was terrible, you know? I mean, my own grandfather served there. It was a terrible thing. Um, we all know about the the trenches. So he avoided, um, close, combative action. [01:06:00] And they still held that against him to that day. Um, he came back. And his parents, um and this is where an article I saw on Facebook touched a chord. Um, because this woman was writing about her own father and said how he came under pressure and finally was obliged to marry because his parents said, we have to have a child to pass on the farm. The same happened with this gentleman. [01:06:30] He married and he had about eight Children. Um, and, um, but when his wife died, he went back into his. He came to Wellington to live where he wasn't going to cause embarrassment to his Children. Um, who had all done very, very well. Of course, they had benefited from a a wonderful upbringing. And that was the class of people we're talking about earlier. Um, and they were all academics and professionals. Um, but here they are. Their little old dad Was this [01:07:00] little old auntie getting around Wellington, you know, and, um yeah, it it was a, uh, an amazing insight, um, into a world which I had not No, no. Oh, he also told me there was a a hell of a lot of it went on. He said that was the hypocrisy of it because you had young guys coming together from all over Australia and New Zealand fighting to as a unit together the ANZAC ANZAC. And he said [01:07:30] they came from all the most remote to the most city dwelling. All backgrounds, all thrown in together and tremendous friendships were forged. Um, they had to look to each other for psycho emotional and sexual, um, support that some of them were, um, back home in Australia, New Zealand, um, homosexuals. They were living their lives, as in the in those days as you could as actual [01:08:00] homosexuals. Now, they were with, you know, lots of other men. And I suppose you've heard of institutional, um, homosexuality where men or women can be thrown together in a, um, a single sex environment. And then it becomes an unwritten rule that we don't really talk about it, but it certainly goes on because there isn't the outlet. You see that in in in the forces, you see that in in prisons, you see that in all sorts of environments where you know they're they're monos. [01:08:30] And he said it went on, and in fact, he said that the rate of infection, um, and gonorrhoea was huge and at one stage stopped the advance he told me about that, and he said that that because he was talking about those old bugger down the other end of the bar. You know, if you know, I'm telling you, it went on and he said that about this. At one stage, the advance was halted because there so many men, um, who were infected with, [01:09:00] um, sexually transmitted disease. Yeah, Gonorrhoea, probably. Yeah. Hm. I say he was a gentleman, so he didn't speak graphically like I am now. It was just more sort of, um, you know, you you expect to catch on to what he was talking about. It must be a really position as a as a bar person. I've never forgotten to be in those situation. Never forgotten. I've often thought about him. He used to dress up. His name was [01:09:30] is that amazing? He used to still dress up, and he was well, in his eighties with his two walking sticks. Yes. And of course, you know, he was He was had always obviously been a very fine featured young man. So he he just looked like any other little old dear little old lady dressed up. So he's still dressed up. Isn't that incredible? Just thinking about some of the other, um, clientele in the bars in the seventies. Did you get a sense the, um, times were [01:10:00] changing in terms of all the kind of political activism and all the gay liberation that was happening in the seventies? Did you see that in the in the bar scene as well? Not so much because you've got a AAA real mixture of people. So, um, and the dominant culture was the the culture of, um, it's not a good thing, you know, And it's illegal. And, of course, as I said earlier, undercover cops and and all that, um, but it certainly went on, and there was a revolution happening. [01:10:30] Um, because amongst young people, don't forget, I was just in my mid twenties, but a lot of my friends were younger. Um, certainly, suddenly it was like, let it all hang out, you know? And if you have an inclination that way, why not do it? I mean, Janis Joplin and everybody else was advocating this, And, um, you know, that whole thing that was coming out of, um, California, um, and, uh, sexual liberation. And, um, if you feel the need do it. And especially, [01:11:00] of course, a lot of people were smoking dope. Um, and that loosened things up a lot. And, of course, we look, you know, at that era, we were the baby boomers, and we were all going through that that stage of our life where we all wanted a good time, you know, sex, love and rock and roll and drugs and the whole package. So, yeah, it's an amazing era to live in. And we were all very idealistic. We really thought we could change the world by this, that the hippie thing was going to [01:11:30] really change it. People were going to love each other more. Then there wouldn't be wars because our fathers had all gone to war. Um, so Vietnam was very bad in Korea. That was bad. It was really not. Not not good. Um, but when you look back at it, you think how naive we all were. But we we we were full of ideals like that, and and women's live was just beginning to And, um, many of us were male feminists. Um, if there can be such a thing and really felt that [01:12:00] there was a real need for equality with women. And, um, and that women could do anything. And, um, yes. And I heard just thinking of that. I heard that, uh, women weren't allowed into public bars. No. Oh, no, no, no. They were not. No, they weren't allowed. Especially unaccompanied. No, definitely not. It was, You know, that was that They often had what was called a was a horrible term of cats bar in some of the pubs. And that was where a like a in the Rovers [01:12:30] return on Coronation Street. The snug A man wouldn't be seen dead in there, but that's where women could go and and and be quite respectable, you know, and have a drink. Um, a woman could always go into a bar with her husband. Um, you know, and and I had quite a few of my customers that that their wives would meet them, um, after work on a Friday night, they'd come into the bar, have a few drinks and go somewhere nice for a meal, Um, and then do some shopping and go home. That [01:13:00] was a New Zealand thing to do, but, um no, but the royal oak don't forget that was different. The Royal oak was a place where, yes, women could would go on their own. Because who, you know, There were bars there. It was obvious that, um, prostitution was going on, And, um, everyone turned a blind eye to that. That that wasn't persecuted. Being gay was, but no, even no one bothered about that. And for other bars, the reason why women couldn't [01:13:30] go into a bar alone was because, Well, I think, um, the bar didn't want to lose its reputation as being a respectable place that respectable people would stop going there. Um, if the single woman was sitting there and getting inebriated or or just drinking and smoking, it was was, you know, and so they the bars were very aware of that. Um, especially the more, um, upper class bars. Like I said, the grand hotel and what have you Those are places where [01:14:00] gentry went to drink, so, Yeah, it's different. If, um, it was a group of women who are obviously I suppose, um, professionals. That was different. Um, women in business suits, you know, as women did in those days. Civil servant women. And what have you, uh, professionals, lawyers? That was that was different. But just for an ordinary woman to walk in No, not really. It's strange, isn't it to think about that now. But as I said, you know, [01:14:30] um, bars are funny about things like there was a a hotel that's closed now it's called. It was called the Railway Tavern after the demise of the Royal Oak and it was demolished. And what have you that took over as a gay venue? There was a downstairs public bar. It was pretty rough. But upstairs, um, there was a jukebox. And you you could have a really good time and gaze of of all kinds of persuasions, men and women. And you could dance. There was a dance floor. [01:15:00] It obviously in its day in the forties or earlier, had been an entertainment room, and and so we we went up there and had lots of fun. The publican, uh, began to get complaints downstairs. So some of them have seen a lot of those going up there. And and I'm telling you that for about eight or nine or more months it thronged upstairs with gaze. He must have made a fortune out of it. Suddenly he barred them. The pub died. [01:15:30] Yes. And that was it. He did. He thought that his tavern was going to get a bad name. It's crazy. It just was not a business like decision. Um, and suddenly we all had to find another venue because going to the pub was People did know. So now I haven't been in a pub for years, but going to the pub was part of your social life. You all had a favourite place to go to, you know, for drinks and meet friends. Yeah, and And so what other news were there? Dominion Tavern. [01:16:00] That was a famous, uh, place and a very sort of, um flexible. Yes, Uh, lots of gays went there, and you could be quite open in there in the tavern. Um, the forester arms was another one that was in street. Um, that was a character pub. You you got real characters there, and it was interesting is you know, you didn't just go there to drink. You went there to people watch. It was quite fascinating. [01:16:30] Eccentric people, you know, I loved it there because I just lived up the road So it was near very near home. So I used to love going there, and, um, I'd whack on a frock. Sometimes I fly in there myself, you know? Um, great. You know, there's an area out the back where you could smoke, you know, and, uh, the barman didn't even bat an isle, [01:17:00] but, uh, there are also places like, um uh, balcony. Um Oh. Well, that was with the site of what became Carmen's balcony down there. Um and, um, it's now Victoria Street, isn't it? Victoria Street? Yes. That originally had been the site of the Mexicali. The Mexicali was a sailor hooker joint and very notorious. [01:17:30] Always featured in the truth. People will be arrested and and raids took place at the Mexicali. It was fights used to erupt and and out onto the streets, you know, and people going for it later on, Um, it changed. It closed down because I think it was just being persecuted into the ground, and someone took it over, and they called it the powder Poof. And that's where I met Dana. We were all 16, you know, 17 years old, [01:18:00] and, um, we we used to go down there. And, of course, you could smuggle in a hip flask of spirit. So you went up to the the bar, and there was a someone who looked like a sumo wrestler in a dress called Geraldine. She would serve the Coca Cola, and, uh, you'd take it back to your table in the glass and, um, just discreetly top up with spirits, rum or something, you know? And that was all very, But [01:18:30] we would be raided. And, um, of course, uh, they had a back door. And of course, suddenly Geraldine come flying out and she go get out, everybody. And we'd fly out the back door and the cops had rush in the front door. Everyone went, you know, But it was a fabulous place because it was a real gay venue. And mom and dad didn't mind me going down there. I'd take the Morris 1000 and drive down, park up, go in, and, um, all pretty innocent stuff when you think about it. But it's an amazing place, [01:19:00] because that was before the Royal Oak Bistro that took over. We're talking here about 1964 65. And it was, um, yes, it was like a zoo. You know, you saw people turn up there. Oh, my God. What the hell is that? You know, it wasn't an astounding because, as I said earlier, New Zealand was pretty plain stitching, Really? So when you saw the exotic, it really was like, wow, you know, But there was, um, other venues. There was a a lesbian joint up in Vivian Street [01:19:30] right up Vivian Street. And it was called the lesbian, and that was a club lesbian. And that was the gay women's plan. And no men were allowed in there. Um, And then, of course, there was, uh, the Mon Marie and all other places. Um, where you could go, Uh, you know, for coffees and that it was Wellington was an exciting place. You know, there was lots of funny little knocks to go to and where you could, really, and all with different characters. And you could really enjoy yourself, [01:20:00] really have fun. But you always had an eye to the queer Basher Brigade and the cops. Um, it wasn't, you know, you had to have your wits about you, and you could be pretty flamboyant, but then you choose your time and place for that. You know, times were changing, though, weren't they? Because they were Gareth. And, um, it was, um really, You know, we were really being oppressed at one stage there, and, um, there was certain members of parliament. They were absolutely obsessed [01:20:30] with homosexuality, anti it, and Oh, and we'd had a few scandals in Parliament. You know, as I said, Carmen being hauled up. And then, of course, a couple of members of parliament got caught. Um, you know, around the town and, um, you know, lost their position very abruptly, and truth got hold of in the newspaper, got hold of all that. Um, and, um yeah. So there was a striving towards change, and we were beginning gay people were beginning to get sick of it, and [01:21:00] we're beginning to, and and we were beginning to hit back and the stonewall riot, the the word of that got around that we could, you know, we could defend ourselves. And as I said earlier, when I was chatting to you, I've been in a place where I saw it happen, you know, and, um and and as I said earlier, people like Geraldine And that that you know, you that they were, um, able to well and truly defend themselves. So we were starting to think Well, yeah. You know, you whack me, I'll whack you right [01:21:30] back. And and with society, we began to realise that we were actually in lots of positions throughout journalism. Um, the arts, um, the the the sciences and the professions. And why are we the needing to be, um, like this? Why do we have to be hiding ourselves? You know, and, um, we began to just like the women's lib movement. Feminist being said, Well, why do we have to take this position? [01:22:00] So when Fran Wilde stood and God bless her, she she championed it. And, oh, we'd had an openly lesbian member of Panama. Um uh, wearing, um and it was really wonderful. You know, She's the youngest member of parliament, and there she was as an outer, fully young lesbian. Well, look what they did to her through the press. You know, she was branded a hunting lesbians. Awful term. She was out to to take housewives away from their husbands [01:22:30] and families. It crazy, absolutely loony stuff. But that's what we just like we're seeing now in America the same rhetoric. Well, we went through all that, and then gradually Fran start to get a foothold properly, and it became obvious that it was it was going to happen. And it was really wonderful. It was really It was just such a relief. The homosexual law reform. And then when it went on further and we actually got legal rights in our relationships, [01:23:00] property rights, you know, um, that we had redress through the legal system. I mean, I had heard of gay fellas and long term relationships who had beautiful homes full of lovely things. Um, and one died and the family of the other one would come in and absolutely loot the place. And the remaining partner would come back from his funeral going through his grief from the funeral. [01:23:30] Go come back full of grief. And there was the family taking all the white wear and the jewellery and the the dog, even. Yes, that happened a lot. And so I think it's really good the way it is now. I mean, a lot of these gay men and women living together in those days, um, they accumulated a good life together, you know? And they worked hard and had lovely things around them. And it's awful to think that that [01:24:00] they had there was nothing legally they could do about it because their relationship was not recognised by law. In fact, it would be persecuted by law, persecuted. They had no right under law. Uh, and we are living in a very wonderful time. Now. We really are so for you personally before homosexual law reform, did you feel like a criminal? Did it have any impact on you? Um, you did, because you were you were [01:24:30] and your activity was, you know, illegal. Um, if if the police raided and caught two men in bed Well, you you went for it. Um, if two men, uh, were kissing in a bar holding hands showing affection, um, in a public place, um, and, heaven forbid, to be caught in a peace raid in a of a flat and and caught in bed together, um, very definitely. You would go for it. And I can remember in those days [01:25:00] and quite some notable people which whose names I won't mention they always had single beds in separate bedrooms. Even though they'd lived together as partners for many, many years, and their friends and guests never ever mentioned it. Oh, why do you not? You know, never. It was you did not go there because it was not safe to go there. So you you did what they called. Um, I had an old friend. He said you never give them the benefit of benefit of the doubt. Never give them the benefit of the doubt. Always [01:25:30] they know, but they don't know. And that's the way you played us. Yes. And of course, it wasn't just the the criminal aspect of it there was. Don't forget, homosexuality was considered a mental disorder, and it could be cured, you know? And, um ECT and, um, revulsion therapy. And, um, that that was practised in New Zealand. And I knew people, um, who had been hauled off, uh, at their parents [01:26:00] instigation, um, to lunatic asylum. That's putting it bluntly. And, um and they had been there and had received shock treatment and it and and all kinds of other special things to to cure them. I mean, Freudian theory. Freudian theory was based on it being an ear of neurosis. It was not normal under Freud, um, changed all that and, um, and [01:26:30] and others and and absolutely debunked all that argument from Eric from I thought he was wonderful. Um, but as I said earlier, you know, books are on on sexuality. Um, which were very popular state of homosexual. Homosexuality was an A of thing. It was just not normal. And it was it was twisted and bad. It didn't help to make you feel very good about yourself. But this, um, woman she was a professional woman, used to come into [01:27:00] the club bar. And, um, she always smoked a cigarette with a cigarette holder and quite a mysterious sort of, um, woman. And, um, she came out to me that she was a lesbian and lived in Brooklyn, and her partner came in with her once, and, um, she was lovely, and, uh, but she told me that she'd spent quite a period of her life, Um, early womanhood in being treated for her lesbianism. I just couldn't get over it. She'd had shock therapy [01:27:30] and everything, a very intelligent and well educated woman from a very good family. And of course, you know, the shame and horror of her daughter that was an obvious lesbian was just too much to bear. Oh, I had a friend that was hauled off in an aeroplane at Wellington Airport, and, um, she was going to go to Sydney, I think, Or Auckland, I can't remember. And, um, she was hauled off and taken away in a police car, and, uh, she was taken to her father, who was [01:28:00] a a GP. And, um, the family lawyer and one other person was involved in a professional nature. That's all it took to say that she was a lesbian and she needed to be helped. And it was out of her hands. She was as sane as you and I. But she went in there. She's yes, but the weird thing about it, Gareth was I. I found it subsequently. It was just a phase she was going through Anyway. She was full on into her lesbianism. But she's a married grandmother living in Sydney now, and that era is all behind [01:28:30] her. But And that's the way it works sometimes, you know. But yes, I was a very there was fear. There was fear. Yes, very much so. And so What was it like going through homosexual law reform in the mid eighties? Did you have much to do with it? I not actively. I didn't know. No, I didn't. I was very busy with my own business. Um, and, um, I had staff and and a business partner, and we were we we were working in [01:29:00] and hairdressing there, and, um, we were completely out, and it was fabulous. It was There was no problem at all. In fact, my business partner is closer friend of, um, Dana Demilo and had been working with Carmen closely. Um, and, um had turned his life around it were without turning it around, but just was now, actually, now in another phase of his life. And he's still working as a hairdresser in the city and doing very, very well. And, [01:29:30] um, so we we were very busy with that. And the activist side of it was more intellectual, like the university students were great. The university students, straight and gay, they were great. They saw this as a cause. Um, and yeah, I think a lot of gay people, really gay people were a bit frightened of really appearing on the marches. Um, you know, there were marches around the city, and I remember I've got [01:30:00] a friend now and he said he went on the march and he said he saw people he knew really well. Gay people on the sideline, not joining the march, just watching. And he said, Well, why aren't they up here? And he said he realised it was fear, and yet they were, um, not closer to homosexuals. They were gay guys. And no one is gay, but didn't really want to be up there. No. And that was one of the things that was a bit of a let down. Really? Um, even though I, as I said, [01:30:30] I wasn't actually out there marching either, but, um, to hear that sort of story, I thought, Well, that's yeah, they weren't all out there being brave and marching along, you know, Pigeon Parkway and down Mount Lampton. Yes. Yes. So did the passing of the law reform bill. Did that have any effect on you? Well, it was huge. It was just a sense of relief, you know, It was suddenly we weren't, [01:31:00] um, criminals, and we weren't, um, you know those things I mentioned earlier wouldn't happen anymore. It was funny. The place where our buddies, suddenly they were our buddies and they, um and they all faded away very quickly. It was like it disappeared overnight and you could walk along the street and not worry about being stopped by cops. And you knew you had representation and law. If you were beaten, you know, queer bashing sort of disappeared. [01:31:30] Um, it just stopped because young guys bashing up queers Well, that's what young guys should do too. Those perverts, they all stopped. And, um, yeah, there was. It was quite amazing, really. I, I think in New Zealand it's been a very, very interesting story. And I had friends visiting from Germany, for example. And they were amazed how easy it was to be homosexual in New Zealand. And that's from Germany, you know, in the in the late seventies, they said, you know, but because Germany [01:32:00] at that time had a very strong religious ethic too, you know, very, very Catholic in the South, very Protestant in the north still had that thing of the militarist background with the wars. Um so these grandsons and sons, it was sort of still a bit of a thing. You wouldn't go home and say to Mom and Dad. Guess what? I'm a you know, it didn't. Yeah. So New Zealand has been pretty good, and I think homosexual law reform and our champion, Fran [01:32:30] Wilde. And, um, yes, it was great. Really good. So then reflecting back on, say, your own family, were they, um, accepting when you were kind of fully out. So yes. Oh, yes, yes. So So you could talk about I could go home with my 28 inch green velvet flares with the silver studs and the and the platform boots with the high heels and the, um, the mad top and multiple [01:33:00] pierced earrings and black fingernails. Hair dyed absolutely mahogany red. Because I had hair then, um, and oh, and of course, John English. You know, the, um, rock star the, uh the coal around the eyes. Um, because, you know, bisexuality was very fashionable. We had the phenomenon of Ziggy Stardust and, you know, spiders from Mars and the whole drama Alice Cooper. Um, you know, it was fashionable to be bisexual or ABIs or [01:33:30] who cared, You know, it didn't really matter anymore. You know. And I guess this kind of leads into your your marriage in 87. So, a year after law reform, you're you're getting married? Yes. Well, as I said earlier, I, um I used to always go out with women and and for fun, you know, and I hadn't. I I'm still got my closest friends are mainly women. Um, heterosexual women. Um, I have gay lady friends, of [01:34:00] course, as well, but well, probably I can't really say that because I've got some real close male friends that are, you know, out sticking pigs. Probably at this moment, Um, in the bush, I mean, but anyway, um, yeah, And with this particular woman, um, we used to see a lot of each other and then one particular evening, I. I told her that that I was a bit frightened of the way it was going that, um I sort of wanted to sort of be more [01:34:30] than just friends, but I wasn't sure that a I was physically up to it. You know, at the end of the day, this was going to be a very new and novel experience for me leaping into bed with a woman um, and she was really great and very supportive and very caring about it and reassured me, and she I can handle it either way. You know, if it doesn't work out, we we're still friends, and and so we lived together for three years. We we did it all formally. We got formally engaged. We [01:35:00] were engaged for two years, um, and had an engagement party. And then we had a formal, proper wedding out at, um, Wallace house. We, um, ended up living in, um, we were there for 16 years, and then yes, things wound down, and it was obvious that we were both ready for a change. So I, um, came out of that at age 56 and two years later, after struggling with a mortgage on my own and the [01:35:30] whole debacle, um, I through the dinner set in the air and went working as a hairdresser on the international cruise ship circuit at age 58. And, um, in the Northern Hemisphere and for 2. 5, nearly three years I did that. And in between contracts, I would do freedom. Travelling, camping, uh, yes, camping freedom, travelling around Europe. So I was able to go back to London, Um, which I left in 1969. Um, between going back from, you know, returning from Spain [01:36:00] to New Zealand, I was able to revisit Barcelona. Look up, old friends. I found one of my old employers now aged 93 friends I had worked with, It was abs. I just turned up on their doorstep totally unannounced. After 35 years. It was incredible. Um, and it was one. And it was amazing how I could still speak Spanish, you know? And, um and, yeah, meet their meet their wives and the whole drama. Yeah, it was great. [01:36:30] Really wonderful. Um, and I came back to New Zealand and settled down again in 20 08. 20. 09. Yeah. So, yeah, it was marvellous. Great. Great experience. So what was it like being in a marriage and in a in a kind of a more hetero Yes, a gay man in a heterosexual marriage. Hm? Well, when I first, um, started [01:37:00] going out with her as a friend, um, everyone no one better. Because I was always turning up at parties and dinners and that with a lady friend and, um, and great, you know, and I had friends that were straight and gay and everything else in between married and single. Um, and I had a very extensive social life. I've always been very social and enjoyed it. Um, So when they first meet her, um, everyone was great. And then they began to perceive, you know, that I was sitting [01:37:30] with her in the evening, like, throughout the evening on the sofa, or I would dance with her and slow dance with her, um, which, you know, we did in those days. And then they began to realise that it's not just one of John's friends, and so I started to announce that you know that, Yeah, We're actually living together, and, you know, we've done it, and, um, I got some amazing reactions. [01:38:00] Some of my gay friends were really disgusted with me. It was like I had gone over to the other side. I you know, we Oh, So you're not gay now? You're not one of us anymore. And I said, no, I'm still gay. Well, then why are you with her, and really very stridently anti it and and really start to be horrible to her, too, So I'd stopped seeing them. That was the end of those friends. And they were really good friendships. Lots of fun. Um, and I just [01:38:30] realised that they really couldn't handle John now that he was straight. I wasn't straight. I just I was a gay man. That just happened to be in a heterosexual relationship. But I still was a gay man and I wasn't being actively gay. I was in a monogamous, loving relationship. Some of the straight friends, Garrett. They too, especially some of the women and the wives, very betrayed. Felt that I had all these years being deceptive [01:39:00] and deceiving and falsely presenting myself that I was really had been always perhaps heterosexual, but was covering it with us gay facade. And so many of these have been close friends. And we would go out together and their husbands would stay at home looking after the Children. We'd go to a movie. We'd go to an art exhibition together, the husbands absolutely trusting. This is so and so's gay friend John. This is fine. Suddenly [01:39:30] Oh, wow. So those friendships, they ended them? Yes, some of them, very angrily. What are you trying to prove you don't have to prove anything. You're making a mistake. You know, um, why do you feel you need to do this, You know, be true to yourself. And so yeah, and, um, but then there were the others who just didn't blink. They saw [01:40:00] that we were happy. They saw that I had found something special. And they were They came and celebrated it with us. And, you know, by attending our wedding and and sharing our joys and our sorrows, we had various miscarriages happen. They were great, and, um and we're still friends to this day, but there are those that to this day, those of them that are alive still that I somehow it was like I'd gone mad. Yes. Yes. [01:40:30] And, um so I had reverse discrimination. Now I've been discriminated against for being gay. Now it's been discriminated against for going straight, Which I wasn't, of course, but yeah. And, um, that's where I found that the Queens the Donna of this world and Dion Gypsy didn't blink When I presented my wife to them first time up. They [01:41:00] they were very nice. Hm. So I found an acceptance there. Yes.

IRN: 1109
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/geovana_peres.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004480
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089774
TITLE: Geovana Peres
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Geovana Peres
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asia Pacific Outgames; Auckland; Benji Watt; Brazil; Geovana Peres; Mayhem Boxing; New Zealand National (NZNBF Version) Light Heavyweight title; Proud to Play NZ (2016); Raw Photography; Terrence Batchelor; World Boxing News; boxing; coming out; confidence; facebook. com; friends; lesbian; parents; relationships; religion; role model; social media; social networking; sport; university; women
DATE: 6 May 2017
YEAR: 2017
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Boxer Geovana Peres talks to Benji Watt about winning the New Zealand National (NZNBF Version) Light Heavyweight title in April 2017. In winning the fight against Nailini Helu, Geovana became the first openly out person to win a New Zealand professional boxing title.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: At the moment. Uh, I can say I'm a lesbian one. Yeah, but I have had experience with men. Yeah, in the past. So when did you actually, uh, first, um, acknowledge that you were attracted to female when I was at the university in Brazil? I was 21 years old. Uh, I felt a little bit weird in the beginning. I was like, What's happening to me? Because I was attracted to a girl that [00:00:30] used to play a soccer indoor with me. And I was like, um, trying to understand what what was happening. Uh, And then I had a conversation with one of my best friends, and I explained to her what was happening, and she said to me, Just enjoy it. And then I let it go, and here I am. So you're from Brazil? Well, I I was born in my family, still lives [00:01:00] there, but I was living Florianopolis. That actually is. The gay capital in Brazil is known by the gay capital in Brazil. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, is it a very religious country? Yeah. We have a variety of religions in Brazil. Yeah, it's but we have many, many kinds of religions nowadays, Not only Catholic, Uh, the variety is really increasing. Yeah. Yeah. [00:01:30] So, um, did you come out when you were in Brazil, or did you come out in New Zealand? No. When I was in Brazil when I was 21 years old, I have been in New Zealand only for seven years, So yeah, all all my life I have spent in Brazil. Yeah. Who do you come out to? Your parents or your friends? My friends first. And then after a while, I decided to tell my parents about not hide because they needed to [00:02:00] know this is who I am. Uh, this is part of who I am, so you don't need to accept, But you need to respect. That's it. And then I told them how How did your parents feel about you coming out? Oh, my mom went crazy. Uh, my dad didn't say anything My mom really didn't like. But as I said to, I made very clear to her. You don't need to accept. But I would like you to respect [00:02:30] my choices and who I am. So and that's it. We we've got a little bit, um, separate after, but uh, after a couple of months, we were all fine. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, when did you started getting into boxing? Two years ago. Two years ago. And did you do? Oh, yeah, you did. Uh, amateurs. You did? Uh, 11 corporate. Oh, yeah. One corporate and two amateurs. I started with [00:03:00] the fight night, and I did two corporate fights, one amateur fight, and then I'm on the pro. Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Uh, and your trainer is Terry, isn't it, Terry? And mayhem. Boxing, boxing. When you first started training with him, did they knew that you were a lesbian or Oh, well, I don't know if they knew, but I don't need to tell much about me, because people I think they realise. And Rachel is [00:03:30] always with me. That my girlfriend. So they realise that we were partners and they never asked. I never told, But it's not difficult to figure out there was no problems at all. Nothing at all. No, I never, never had any problems. Because I'm very confident about who I am and what I am. And if people don't like to be, is that you should not mind. So that's it. So, uh, when you became a pro, um, how was [00:04:00] that for you? Uh was a new chapter in my boxing career because I, I had a first fight amateur, and due to my age, I couldn't carry on an amateur. So and my coach really believed on me and thought that I had skills enough. And now I always believed in myself, too. So he asked me if I would like to said, Yeah, let's go for it because I really like challenges. I am a really [00:04:30] high achiever, so and I really have big goals for myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, uh, what's it like? Being the first lesbian New Zealand champion was quite surprising for me. I never thought about that because I went, uh, when I started boxing. It's my primary focus is boxing and finding out that I am the first, uh, woman to [00:05:00] win um, a New Zealand boxing time. Being lesbian was quite surprising. I felt very proud, and I think I can be I thought I could be a really role model for other people. And if I can help someone find confidence and fight for what they want, you know, and really be strong and believe in themselves that they can do whatever they want, despite everything, you know, because this, [00:05:30] um being a lesbian is not who I am. It's part of who I am. And if I can help someone, uh, be more confident, Uh, give it being a role model, I'll be more than happy to do it. So what's great is that we're actually not just, uh, getting a lot of support for that. You're also getting a lot of support for the LGBT community. Well, yeah, it's it's amazing. And I feel very grateful. And, [00:06:00] um, if I can touch people and help through this, uh, magazines or websites, you know, um, touch more people, and they are who they are. They are beautiful the way they are. It's I'm happy. And I'm really grateful for this, um, people giving me an opportunity to really try to change other people's lives. So, um, on Facebook, you could, uh, You [00:06:30] probably saw, um there were a couple of comments on Facebook that are saying, um what? Um, this doesn't really matter. Who cares about, um, being the first LGBT this, Um how do you feel about those sorts of comments that are going across Facebook. To be honest, I haven't seen. And to be honest, I I don't care about because my PRI primary focus is boxing. Um, this came along as a consequence because it's part of who [00:07:00] I am. It's great. But seriously, I don't give, um I don't mind what about people think, you know, because I will keep doing what I do. I will keep being myself. It doesn't matter who. It's on my way. So, um, how's, uh, your partner feel about, uh, going into the boxing ring? Well, I think I think she should answer that because I can't answer for her. It's her [00:07:30] her feeling as well. I don't know. She has to answer. Um, I would say I'm very proud, um, of Giovanna and and her journey and to have been there from when she did fight night and and watching her progress as an athlete and also as a woman, um, and inspiring people around her. She's a role model for other people on her team mayhem, but she's also, um, [00:08:00] a role model for other aspiring athletes, whether it's in boxing or it's in other sports as Well, um, she never lets anything get in her way. She is relentless, um, on achieving her goals. So I'm very proud. Yeah. So, um, before becoming a boxer or even drawing Boxer, did you ever receive any abuse because of your, um, being, um, lesbian or being gay? Not that I remember of, [00:08:30] because I'm very confident about who I am. And, uh, I don't let, uh, negative comments affect me, So I pretty much, uh, try to keep people negative people away from me. I don't like dramas in my life. I'm very short and sharp. Very directive. So if I don't like, I will tell the person I didn't like So, [00:09:00] uh, so from the moment that you are confident about who you are and what you want to achieve, it's much easier to keep focused and isolate, not isolate is not the word, but, uh, keeping these people away from you because he was so focused and he was so confident about what you can achieve and who you are that you can [00:09:30] compartmentalise these bad things and let it go. You know, it's just about to let it go. There are things that out of our control for sure. So external things that we can't control. But for sure. One thing we can't control is the way we feel and the way we react to that external things. So knowing who you are and knowing what triggers you and [00:10:00] how to control yourself really empowers you to keep it going in your journey, journey and not being affected for things that happening around you, the external factors, the external factors, they will always be there. You can't control them, but definitely you can control what's inside of you and how you feel and how you react to these things. So, um, the news of you being champion actually reached [00:10:30] international media as well with, um, with one of the biggest news outlets for boxing with a world boxing news. Um, how how do you feel about you becoming an international star per se? Well, I never thought about that, but just to I will embrace it and, you know, enjoy it. You know, that's it. When you when you love something, when you love you what you do, you have to enjoy it, you [00:11:00] know, and be happy. That's it. So, um, what's next in your career? I don't know yet. What's the next goal? My coach is is studying the possibilities. But I can tell you that I really have huge goals in my mind. Um, and I will try to go as far as I can go. That's the main thing for me. Do you ever want to go back to Brazil and fight there one day? Uh, [00:11:30] I would go back there to fight, but not to leave anymore. No, I here is my home now, But if I had to go there to have a fight, I would I would do it. No problem. Yeah. So, um, I think, uh, we have this, uh, the game. There's a certain games that happen around here sometimes. So it's called the out games. Uh, I think they're also called proud to play sometimes. Um, would you like to see them bring boxing into their, um, [00:12:00] their games? Uh, I never heard about this. To be honest, I don't know how it works. I like the Commonwealth Games, but the gay community, I think, would be great, don't you think? Because would give more chance for people, show their you know and well and have a beautiful life, a beautiful career and experience something different. [00:12:30] I think it wouldn't be nice. And, um, what would you like to say to your fans? I would like to say, um, as a one quote I gave to you and one of our sheds on the over the MS NN Uh, sometimes people with small minds, they can't understand the way we are big spirits, because I strongly believe that, uh, we are big spirits, [00:13:00] you know, because we have a mission to accomplish in this life. And sometimes you are going to be hated. You are going to be mocked in. People are going to talk about you. People are going to, uh, laugh of you, so But, you know, forget it. Try to focus in what you want. Know yourself very well. Be the captain of your own ship and take [00:13:30] the leads of your own life and go ahead And what happens around you just let it go.

IRN: 1119
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/shift_2017_rainbows_in_a_monochrome_world.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004479
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089773
TITLE: Rainbows in a Monochrome World - Shift hui 2017
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Dani Pickering; Jaye Barclay; Lee Eklund; Tarn Billingsley
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Barbie dolls; Bell's palsy; Bible; Canary Islands; Catholic school; Catholicism; Christchurch; Christianity; Dani Pickering; Grim Reaper (advertisement); HIV stigma; Hepatitis; InsideOUT Kōaro; Invercargill; Japan; Jaye Barclay; Lee Eklund; Lilly Loudmouth; Lutheranism; Mormonism; Māori; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; Native American culture; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Pakeha; Porirua; Positive Speakers Bureau; Rachel Dolezal; Russia; Seattle; Shift hui; Shift hui (2017); Tabby Besley; Tamaki; Tarn Billingsley; Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington; Te Horouta Marae; Te Wananga o Aotearoa; Ukraine; United Kingdom; United States of America; Westboro Baptist Church; abuse; acceptance; agender; air cadets; anti-capitalism; birth name; bisexual; bogan; bullying; camp; capitalism; change; chill; church; cisgender; closet; coeducation; coming out; condoms; confession; cooking; cross dressing; dating; depression; diverse sexuality; diversity; drag; drama; dresses; drugs; embarrassment; employment; faith; family; femininity; femme; fluidity; friends; gaith (gay faith); gay years; gender; gender diverse; gender fluid; gender identity; going through a phase; health education; hell; homelessness; homophobia; hormone replacement therapy (HRT); hormone treatment; hospitality; hui; identity; internet; intersectionality; invisibility; invisiblising; library; love; mental health; minority; moustache; needle exchange programme; non-binary; oppression; pansexual; parents; people of colour; plague; preferred name; pronouns; queer; queer straight alliance (QSA); racism; rainbow power; rainbow relationships; relationships; religion; religious education; religious homophobia; rural; school; sex; sex education; sex work; sexual health; sexual identity; side hoe; single sex schools; sissy; stepfather; stereotypes; stigma; suicide; support; trans; transgender; transmasculine; truth or dare; twink; two-spirit; volunteer; workshop; worship; youth; youth group
DATE: 19 April 2017
YEAR: 2017
LOCATION: Te Horouta Marae, Whitford Brown Avenue, Papakōwhai, Porirua
CONTEXT: Navigating the world as someone from rainbow communities brings with it many challenges, taking different forms for different people. Dani, Lee, Lilly, Brandon, Ethan, Jaye and Tarn share some of their experiences coming out across different settings - with family, at school, work and coming from a background of faith.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Morning. So this, um, first workshop today is rainbows in a monochrome world. Navigating the world as someone from Rainbow communities brings with it many challenges taking different forms for different people. Danny, Lee, Lily, Brandon, Jay and Tan will share some of their experiences coming out across different settings with family at school work and coming from a background of faith, I'm gonna hand over to Danny to introduce this idea further. OK? Um, yeah. Everyone, [00:00:30] Um, yeah. So, uh, I'm Danny. Uh, I'm also president of UN of Victoria, Um, where I just did a discussion on this. So one of the big ideas are from, So I kind of kept my life in biological years and also gay years because it just so happened that when I accepted myself for who I was, I, um it was on my birthday. So it's really easy for me to count, though. So in the 6. 5 [00:01:00] gay years that I've had under my belt Now, um, I've been thinking about it like, um especially like in terms of this structure of the closet and coming out in terms of, um well, the closet is this very, very big thing that, you know, kind of chases us all our lives in a way, um, and coming out as only one small part of that as one. A single strategy that we actually use to combat that when it's far [00:01:30] from the only way that we keep ourselves mentally healthy, that we can navigate our lives. Um, in that monochrome world, basically, Um, so with that in mind, I guess I'll just jump into my coming out story. Um, so I'm from originally I was born in Tamaki. Um, but when I was 3. 5 years old, I moved up to Seattle because that's where my mom's side of the family lives. And, um, I spent [00:02:00] most of my childhood and adolescence there. And in that time, um, my schooling experience was I wasn't I was in a public school, it wasn't a very and so it wasn't like, officially, a very religious school, But it was a very religious school. Um, so we had a very large, um, Catholic community and a Mormon community. Um, and because of living in the States, I was also very proximal to the [00:02:30] Westboro Baptist Church just via the Internet basically, um, and all of these had, like, put a lot a lot of different kinds of pressure on me. Um, before I'd even realised, like I had that self realisation of Oh, my God, I'm a queer. Um, so despite all of that, like I was actually in a very a liberal accepting sort of a Lutheran church and in the midst all of these other denominations and contexts and sort of thing. And, um, [00:03:00] but they were also very, very silent on any sort of rainbow issues. And so, during my teenage years, I kind of took that as affirmation of just the the homophobic, the transphobic, all of that vitriol that was, um, being spewed by defectively their peers, um, and the other denominations nearby and everything, um And so, like, of course, that had a very negative impact on my everything. [00:03:30] More or less. So, um, all of that pressure and all that religious context too, meant that, like, um, because I had built up coming out to be this end or be or thing, um, that it just it felt like a confession in the end. So, um, it was it was it was confessing my sins in a way like and because that's kind of how we talk about sex these days when we take it, um, from private person, like, you know, one on one, whether [00:04:00] that's like actually sexually or just like talking about sex sort of thing, it's usually like that, whereas like bringing it into a public space like like this, I guess like Oh, my God, we're being live Streamed right now, um, like very, very, very public space. Um, you know, it's it it it's kind of taken the form of confession. And I hate that. I really, really do, because it's sort of like you lose control of it. At that point, you lose control of like, um of just kind of having that [00:04:30] agency of who you are and being able to articulate that in a way that, um, is yours. And so when I did come out, um, it was to like it was initially to my mother, who then couldn't keep the secret from my dad and valued stuff. But like we've all we've all talked like, I should preface all of this by saying I'm on very good terms with all of my family. Um, we are. We've we've worked through all of this, and it took a lot of work, and, [00:05:00] um, ja will talk about that a little bit more. Um Well, their version of of their events. But like, um, it was, but yeah, it it came down to, like they just didn't know how to handle it because I didn't even prepare them at all. Like, um, because when I when I came out, like after I left high school too, Like No way, um, they, uh, like I. I was a shock to a lot of people, which is like, really funny if you you look at me now, you listen to me now. Like I everyone thought I was a straight [00:05:30] guy like No, no, it was a huge shock to a lot of people. And it was real, which was really, really funny, but like, um but especially to my to my parents, and that was really rough. And, um, for them and for me and like like now, like in hindsight, I can recognise that, but it was still like, OK, I've been through the wringer on this. I've been suicidal. I've been all of the I've gone through so much crap over this, and you're gonna you know, and you're gonna say that it's been hard on you, but like it so it took, You know, it took me years to be able to look back on that [00:06:00] and be like, OK, well, yeah, it was a shock. There was no way for them to prepare for that. Like I turned coming out into a confession of sin, basically, and they didn't know how to react to that. Basically, um And so, like, I I'm sharing this story now, basically, because it was like the way that I went about it just wasn't worth it because, you know, I didn't, like drop, because apparently I didn't drop any hints. Um, so, you know, and they just They just were, like, whether that was just being, like, conscious [00:06:30] or not. Like, they just weren't picking up on it. And so, like, there was no way for them to prepare. Um, and that was, like, my big mistake that I just want to share and, like, make sure that never happens again, I guess. Um, make sure that, like when we talk about coming out, that It's only one of the strategies in which we navigate our livelihoods and our well-being and that sort of thing. Um and that you take that strategy very, very, very seriously. If it is something that you need to you feel that you need to opt for. [00:07:00] OK, Uh uh uh, I'm a second year student at Victoria University of Wellington. I'm studying 1 million things. Um, and I'm also secretary on the board for inside Out. Um, I identify as bye. And that's kind of what I figured out first, um, and I [00:07:30] also identify as, like, age and the trans masculine. So I use them or hear him pronouns. Um, today, I'm going to talk about, um, coming out like, kind of versus, um, family and family dynamics and also like, like as a process that, like, is like, absolutely 100% a choice. Like you don't have to come out like, Hey, everyone, this is me. Shout it from the rooftops. You can like, do it with select people and people you feel safe with and how it's like a continuous [00:08:00] process. Um, launching into my story, um, I started questioning my sexuality when I was like 11. And I have this really, really vivid memory of being in, like, a an intermediate health class. And, um, some girls had made this animation about like, Oh, these are symptoms of menstruation. And one of them was like, Oh, you might find girls attractive, but don't worry, that's just a face. I was like, OK, that's shell. And then I just forgot about it for, like, five years. [00:08:30] Um so, like, whoops. Um, yeah. And then I kind of, um, started questioning again in early high school. And, um, like when I was about 15, it was like, OK, yeah. Um, this is definitely a thing. And, um, only like, it took me a very small amount of time to come out to my family because I was young and like, really like, Yeah, let's do it. Let's go. Um, and so I told my friends first [00:09:00] that I was by and then I told my mum first, Um and her reaction was not exactly as I had expected. Um, it's kind of one of those things where when I was, like, younger, me and my friends used to be like, Oh, like, not truth or dear. Yeah, OK, Yeah, truth or dear. And then you'd pick truth, and then someone would be like to you out of the three of us. Who do you think is the most likely to be a lesbian? And like, I would always be like, Oh, not me, guys. [00:09:30] I'm totally straight. And then, like, um, I got to kind of, like, be a bit older, and I was like, Cool, like, nice. I have all these preconceived notions of what it means to be LGBT, and I need to dismantle that within myself. Um, and when I told my mum that I was by, she was like, Oh, no, I don't think you are. You don't have the personality for it. And I was like, What does that mean? Um, And then, like because of her reaction, I didn't tell my dad for several months, and then he kind of gave me the whole Oh, but, you know, like, women are just more attractive [00:10:00] and, like, Oh, yeah, I had a girlfriend once who was by, But she never dated any girls. And I was like, Cool. Thanks. Um, and it, like, took them a while to come around But eventually both of them were like, Yeah, cool. You like whoever you like. It's shell. Um, and, uh, it was a similar situation with my gender. I didn't figure that one out until, like, the beginning of year 13. So, like, a couple of years ago Now, [00:10:30] um, And for me, like, I had a lot of trouble with it because I really strongly identified kind of with womanhood because, like, it had shaped my experiences growing up. And we live in a very patriarchal society. So, like, I experienced a lot of, like, sexism and sexual harassment growing up. Um, because of that, and like, part of me was kind of skid to, like, let that identity go. But at the same time, it made me feel really dysphoric thinking about myself like that. Um, And then like when I told both [00:11:00] of my Oh, I think I told Mum again first, and she was like, Hm hm. No. And then I told Dad later, and he also was like, Hm, no, um, and at first, both of them were like, We don't want to use your like, chosen new name. We want to keep using your birth name because we gave it to you. Um, and both of them were like, No, they then pronounced no, um, but like, it's been a couple of years now. And now my whole family, including my two younger brothers, who are 12 and 15, um, use my chosen name, [00:11:30] which is really cool, because I didn't When I first came out, I didn't ever think that that would be something like any of them would be open to, um, still working on the pronouns. But, um, with my parents, I think that it's just because they're of a different generation and it takes them a little longer to adjust. Um, so I guess my like message with my coming out story, like with that part of it is that even though like it can take, like, well, because we all when we figure out that we're gender [00:12:00] diverse or sexuality diverse, like go through different processes of dismantling our own, um, homophobia, biphobia and transphobia within ourselves and that also, like extends to our families. Like when you first figure it out, You're like, Oh, no, But that can't possibly be true, because I mean, I'm not like this stereotype that I've seen. Or like I don't I I I'm not like this one person that I know who is, um, and it's like a similar thing [00:12:30] with, I think, particularly our parents, because my mom, when I told her that I was non-binary was like, Oh, well, when we were growing up, there was only, like, gay and lesbian, and maybe, but like, I never knew any trans people. Um, and like, yeah, it's a process for them as well, like kind of learning more and like being a bit more accepting and more open minded. Um, and that doesn't come naturally for everyone and for some people like, it might not happen. But I think [00:13:00] it's worthwhile. Like when you do come out if your family like, initially, like, not if they're like if they're, like, super homophobic and like No, never talking to you again, then maybe you don't hold out like hope as much. But like, um, your family, like, ultimately, can be, um, some of your like best supporters. Um, if you like, give them a little bit of time to kind of learn a bit more for my mom [00:13:30] with the because at first I identified as bi gender for her. That was, um, she She does like a lot of research on everything that she like, doesn't know much about. Um and she went to watch a documentary on, um two spirit for Native Americans because, like like it's a lot of people say that it's like the principle, not principles. Like the description of it is fairly similar to, like some other genders that we've like given labels to in a Western context. And she, like, cried when she watched it because she could relate. And she kind of understood how I felt [00:14:00] a bit better and also for her. That was when I chose a different name for her. That was, um, she reflected back on her own name which, like, um full like her full name is like feminine, But she goes by a masculine, shortened version of it. And she was. She remembered growing up that she always hated it when people called her her full name and that, like her mom, hated it. But she wanted to be called something else, and she was like, Oh, that's how my child feels like Yeah, I can like, understand that [00:14:30] Um, yeah. And I guess the other thing I wanted to say was that, um don't, like, put pressure on yourself to come out to everyone all at once, or even to, like, come out at all if you're not in a safe environment where you don't feel like you can tell people that you're LGBT because you're maybe at risk of violence or if, um, the person is not very trustworthy and might out you to people who, like could be discriminatory towards you. Then you don't have to tell them, um, I kind of well, like [00:15:00] for me. As soon as I figured out I was I was like, Hey, everyone immediately Because that's just me. I just wanted to like it to be out there, and I just wanted to not have to pretend to be something I wasn't anymore. Um, but it was more difficult with my gender because, um, I was and still am dating, um, my boyfriend, who is, um cisgender heterosexual. And at high school that had, like, a lot of really, like a lot of people, thought that it was their business to ask about our relationship when [00:15:30] it's not like I kind of used Oh, yeah, I'm questioning my gender is like a hypothetical in this very heated discussion that I was having, Even though I already knew that I was like, Trans and immediately this person was like, Hey, everyone, Hey, everyone. Jay doesn't identify as this this girl anymore. And then, like, I had a bunch of people going up to my boyfriend and being like, does this mean you broke up with Jay? If they transition, Um, it's OK, Don't worry. Um, so yeah, like, and it's it. It is a continuous [00:16:00] process. You meet new people in your everyday life and, like they won't know or like, might not know unless you tell them. Um, like I've been at my current work for six months, and I pretty much immediately told them that I was Why? Because generally people are, like, more OK with that, like in my experience. But I've only told like one of my co-workers that I'm Trans. Um and my employees still don't know, and I don't think I'll tell them any time soon. Um, and some of my friends know and some of my friends don't and like, [00:16:30] you know, you don't have to be out to everyone at once. You don't have to be out to anyone. You can just be out to people you trust. And, um, that's all I have to say. Um, let me know if you can hear me, OK? All right. Um, just be like, speak up. Um, so my name is Tom. Um, I am a social work student at just down the road a bit, um, and [00:17:00] I am really happy to be here with all of you. It's really exciting to be part of a again. Um, so totally. Also, what? I kind of wanted to talk about a little bit as well as my coming out story. Is that thing of like, you like, there's this perceived kind of thing of like when? Like, I get asked all the time. When did you come out? And I'm like, yesterday the day before. Like most days of my life. It feels, um and that's not the case for everybody, but [00:17:30] coming out, um, for me at least, is something that happens a lot. Um, sometimes people don't believe me. They're like, Oh, really? No, You're so not You don't look gay, and I'm just like I am extremely gay. Very. And this is what a gay looks like. This is what a queer person looks like. Um, so also, I identify as fem um, and my sexuality, my gender, like fem, is a really big part of, um, who I am. [00:18:00] Um, and it has been a really important part of kind of my journey of coming out to myself. Um, so I kind of feel like I have two main coming outs. Um, when I think back on my life, Um, So I grew up in very rural settings. My family are just like big old hillbillies. My parents met at the village that we live in in the local pub. Both of my fair sides of my family still live there. My cousins and everything. Um, so, yeah, I grew up like that pretty hillbilly. [00:18:30] And so when I started high school, it was quite a way away from where I lived, and it was quite separate. And I started high school, and I was like, Oh, my gosh, there's this girl in my drama class, this amazing punk girl. And I was like, What are these feelings I'm having like this is because before, I'd just been like boys. I have crushes on boys. Amazing. And then I was like, Yeah, just kidding. Um, and this is when I was 12. Um, [00:19:00] yeah. So it was coming out to myself for a while. I was like, Is it just because I'm at an all girls school and I don't know any boys, and I'm like, might as well have a crush on someone? No, like, 13 years down the track? No. Still like this, But, um, it did put me off speaking about how I was feeling for a little while. So eventually, I told, um, a couple of my friends that I was by, um, this was about 13 or 14, and [00:19:30] so I don't know what health education, like sex it is like these days, but at my school, it was pretty average. And one day we were sitting in class. And like the only things about gender and sexuality that we were given, we got, like, a little list. And the teacher was like, Here you go. What do you think a gay is? What do you think a bisexual is? And then, like, left the room and everyone was like gays. And then this one girl. Yeah, and I was just sitting there like, Yeah, gays. Funny. [00:20:00] Um, And then this one girl in my class who was quite scary. Um, she was, like, the bad girl of our year. She was like, Is anyone in this class? Gay. And one of my friends turned to me and was like, Tom and I was just like, what? Um And then everyone was like, Are you? And I couldn't lie like I don't I can't lie. I was just like, yeah, like, dying inside, like, yes, I am. And everyone was [00:20:30] like, Oh, cool. Oh, my God. Do you think she's hot? Do you think I'm hot? And I was like, You're not my type. Um, And I was like, looking at that girl who was like, Are you gay? I was like, you. Thanks. Thanks a lot. But it turned out she was also a gay, and she was my first love. We dated later on. It was awesome. Yeah. So that was my first big coming out. It was it was more an outing than a coming out, but I think it was actually it wasn't great, but it [00:21:00] was manageable for me. Um, at the time, I was had a really cool group of friends. Um, and it turns out many of us were also trans queer. So many other things. Um, I don't know if you had saw Spencer in here doing the Healthy Relationships Workshop yesterday, so we went to high school together, and that was like, one of the best things for me. Having Spence and other people like that around, um really made a difference because we had our own little crow of people. Um, so my other big coming [00:21:30] out was with my family. And like I said, my family kind of hillbillies, they're amazing. I love them, but for sure, like just hunting farming, like, just all that kind of stuff. Um, so I was quite nervous to come out. And when I did tell my mom I was about 15. And because of the separation between the hillbilly life and my town school life, I was able to keep it a secret from them When, like everyone else and my friends knew and my school and all this stuff. And, um So I told [00:22:00] my mum one day. And so I was sitting on the bench and she looked at me and she was like, You look like you have something you want to tell me. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, like what the hell, Mum? OK, I like girls. And she was just like, OK? And I found out later that she thought I was gonna tell her that I was pregnant. So actually she was like, she was like, OK, like what the hell, But OK, um and I said, don't tell Dad, but she immediately went and told Dad, of course, like what? A snitch. Um [00:22:30] but yeah, I. I was nervous about my dad knowing because I guess even in your own family, there's these preconceived notions about what it means to be from a rural community, a small community, Um, where everyone knows everyone and all the gossip gets around like that. Like, one minute you say something, Nick, like your nana rings you up and she's, like, such and such from down the road had such and such saying that you're this Yeah. Um, but so I was nervous about my dad knowing, um, he had said at one point a couple of years before [00:23:00] that. I don't mind lesbians as long as none of my daughters are them. And I was just sitting there like, oh, looking forward to telling you, Dad, Um, but actually, he my family, you know, it wasn't something they really had come across. But with time and just kind of having space to, um, just kind of not talk about it because we don't really talk about stuff in my family, but just to kind of readjust to that difference [00:23:30] in how they saw me Because I didn't suspect, because I was just out there playing with Barbies every day. Like when I was little. Like they Yeah, like, did not have that kind of concept of fem queerness. Um, they actually kind of came around really awesomely eventually. Um, one time, this guy in the village tried to, like, Bible, bash me and be like gays or against the Lord. And my dad just came along, his moustache bristling, and he was like, She can do whatever she wants to do. And I was like, Yes, [00:24:00] thanks, Dad. The hillbilly man is on my side. Um, yeah. So coming up for me it was It was hard. Um, but it was good as well. And it wasn't It didn't necessarily happen in some ways in safe ways that being out of was not a safe thing to happen. Um, and so I really do stand behind that thing of, like, it's really important that it happens at a time that feels safe and OK for you. Um, if you can make sure you have people around you [00:24:30] that can support you. Um, if things don't go well with your family that you have a place to go all those kind of things, just if you can, um, I think that's really important. Um and yeah, just yeah, I think for a lot, a lot of us. I'm sure many of you get this, like, kind of also keeping in mind that coming out is not a one time thing. Um, for some of us, yeah, it's for the rest of our life, and it does get a lot easier as you become more confident and more supported [00:25:00] in your identity. And once those really important people are out of the way, then it's so much easier just to be like, Hello, World I am a big old gay look at me. Like because, Yeah, once that's done, Um, usually it's a lot safer. Cool. I think that's all I have to say. Thank you for listening in. Everybody ready for some tragic stories? [00:25:30] Um, OK, my name is Brandon here in pronouns. I'm a year 13 this year. They said it was going to be a good year, but it's really boring so far. Um, OK, so coming out stories is gonna to be tragic. Um, was it my parents were actually the best coming out story. Let's talk in the details of how it came out. Apart from clear Internet history, [00:26:00] that's the most PG way possible. Um, so one morning, my parents when my dad came in and then I don't know what they were coming in. They closed the door and he was just kneeling right by my bed. And I'm just like, What the hell is going on? Has someone died in my family or something? And he he looked at me. I had a scared face. He was just like, It's not as if I'm gonna No, wait. What is it? This is ages ago. This was like when I was, like, 10. [00:26:30] Um oh, God, my mind's gone blank. But at one stage, she was just like, we know you're gay, son, and we'll accept you as long as you don't put us in a retirement home when you're old, when we're older and I'm just like, Thanks, I guess I didn't know how to respond to that one. Like I was, like, half asleep and half awake. So I I wasn't really registering anything apart from my mum saying When's dinner? Because she didn't really care at all. That [00:27:00] was literally my coming out story for my parents. Just one talk. And now my dad never leaves me alone. He's just like, when you gonna bring a boy over and I'm just like, OK, but I'm not really gonna bring them to you because you'll draw them with the 21 questions like you do, my friends. That's why I never have any friends over because they all get scared of you. Hm? Yeah. My mum's sister just loves me anyway, so I'm just like, yes, Mum, She doesn't scare [00:27:30] anybody. I'm one of my friends, so I'm, like, happy for that. That's why I always make my mom do everything instead of my dad. I make him sit in the room. OK, well, aside from that I went to a Catholic school. They said they wanted to send me to a Catholic school. And I'm just like, OK, this will, This will be a good experience. They were wrong. I always proved them wrong. Um, it was around Year 10 [00:28:00] I. I started, like getting feelings for all of these guys. I'm pretty sure I had crushes on half of the guys in, like, the entire year level. It just It's just so bad. Um, I don't know. It's just like everybody's talking about these girls. It's like a really boy environment, like they're all talking about girls they want to get with girls, they want to do stuff with girls and I'm sitting there going. I have none of these feelings at all, so I never connected with any of the guys there. [00:28:30] And so I was that little innocent kid in the corner just sitting there listening to everybody going on about how fabulous girls are and was a Catholic school. It's just all about a girl and a guy, and they never touched on anything, even in health. Anything about guy and guy or girl and girl. So they all in education. They were all taught all of the different Bible verses. And then there was that Bible [00:29:00] verse where it says, Man shall not lie with man, and I'm sitting there going, Oh, crap. I'm getting these feelings Should should I be like, repent my sins or something somewhere and yeah, When I finally gave the courage to come out, it was not really a courage. It's more like I did it in the most ironic of classes religious education. I put like the horrible cars that come out in. But I stole somebody else's thunder, my friend, [00:29:30] who's still my friend now. And my only friend from that school that's left. Um, he came out in the RE class, and so I thought this would be a good opportunity. I am gay, too. Yeah, and all of the people in this group were just staring at us, and we're just like, um yes, we're gay. I don't think they talked to us for about two weeks. And then yeah, before that, all of the guys thought I was like, one with [00:30:00] them like they wouldn't mind me being the quiet one, but they would still include me and stuff. But as soon as I did come out, their perspectives of me changed kind of and kind of notice it in the way that they act towards you. Like and I like other classes and instead of like, including me in the conversations, there would be, like, little secu chats without me now. And it would be like when I walk past, I would get these really weird looks from the guys, and I'm just literally [00:30:30] I think they thought I was gonna hit on them. And I'm just like, No, I'm not attracted to like half of you guys. So you guys have nothing to worry about. I wouldn't even go there it so that happened for, like, another year or so. Just me chilling through a class and religious education and all that. It just wasn't really an environment that I thought that I would stay in because they weren't including me in anything. I felt like that one [00:31:00] little person that had his own little bubble that just didn't fit in anywhere. So I chose to move schools. Most of my friends said it was running away, But I'm just like, No, I want to get to go to a school that actually is an environment where I can connect with people and actually have a social life. For once I'm alone and still sitting in my bed for most of my life. But yeah, it's just [00:31:30] It was really hard because most of the friends that I thought I had they just slowly drifted away from me as soon as they knew that. And I was soon just left with myself in the library with, like, the other gay kid, which is not too bad because we're just sitting there admiring all of the guys downstairs. Yeah, so that happened. And when I when I actually moved schools, it was like everybody wondered why I was going, and I'm just like, I don't really have to explain to myself why I'm moving [00:32:00] like it was probably really evident while I was moving, but it just never clicks into their head. Like the way that they act affects you like just boys. It's all I can say. Boys straight boys. Mm. So when I did finally move which is last year. Um, it was really weird because I'd never had [00:32:30] I hadn't been there to coed school for a while because my Catholic school was just the only boys school. So when I went there, I'm just like, how do I socialise with girls now? I've been so like, living with, like, guys for so long that I don't actually know how to, like, chat with the girl, even though there's probably all of the straight guys lives. But yeah, that was my dilemma. But I ended up making really good friends there. But I was still scared of coming [00:33:00] out to them because I was afraid what was going to happen. What happened at the Catholic school would happen at this new public school, because what is it? The social atmospheres of schools sometimes don't change with different schools, like the same views from society sit with in the same mindsets in different areas. So I was really scared, But then when I did come out, it turns out all of them were [00:33:30] queen. Anyways, I'm pretty sure I came out. Two of the girls came out as we're pretty sure one other guy there is gay or we got hope. And I hope I'd actually get a relationship out of this for once. Um, yeah, I was actually really good, really supportive and get yourself a really good group of friends. And if they really actually do drift [00:34:00] away from you and that don't be scared to go and find other people because it's actually the best thing ever. Like they have become like my side hose. That's not a good word. They're actually my side hose. And I'm just like I walk through the school. Just be like, Yeah, these are my friends now. Yeah, and it's good because they introduced me to parties and they had the best thing ever. Yes, I actually don't know where I'm going [00:34:30] with this, but yeah, those are my change coming out stories. Moral of the story is don't be afraid of change. Like if one thing isn't working out for you. And if you're in a social environment, don't be scared to opt into another one, take a risk and hope for the best, because sometimes it's like the best thing of your entire life, and you get really good friends that you'll stay with for a while because I'm pretty sure I'll stay with [00:35:00] these friends for a very long time. They've got all of the same interests as me, the same guy interests as me, really good band, a conversation about different guys, various topics that I shall not go into. I'm really trying to make this really PG. Um, yeah, I still haven't got some. Like, all of my friends at the new School are like girls now, like I've since [00:35:30] my first thing with guys at the Catholic school has just put me off with trying to be friends with the guys at all. It's like one of those experiences where it's like you want to be friends with guys, but you just don't want that backlash again because my community, even though Wellington is really big, my area is really small, where everybody knows people so and we're all our schools are, like, all within five minute walk of each other. So when you go to the mall, I still [00:36:00] see those burners boys walking by and they give me the weirdest as looks and they're just like, Hey Brandon! And they just like it's really annoying. And it's weird because There's other people in the public around and I really don't want to, like, have everybody know it's Brandon and a little sissy boy. I'm just like it's really annoying and I want to go up and punch them. But I, I refrain myself and just walk away, even though if I got the scarf, I wanted to, like, wrap it around the next check on them. [00:36:30] It's just one of those little things that I just walk away, and it doesn't help that my house is like down the road from that school. So I have to, like, make it from my school to my house very quickly and try to avoid as much as boy. So that's like a daily mission for me right now is trying to avoid these boys who just think that I'm like that one little feminine boy when I'm like No, I don't identify as feminine at all like physical futures and that, [00:37:00] but they automatically think that I'm feminine because I'm gay and it's just like social views that just really get to me, and I just want to strangle society by the neck. If it ever had, like a physical form, it just be like my gayness will just kill you slowly. Yeah, horrible stories. Don't be afraid. Take a leap of face Even [00:37:30] though I kind of ran away from the faith that I was in But yeah, take a leap, Take a leap of faith. Let's see gai faith. There we go. Gaith Tongue Twister Word. Faith. I hate that word. Um, yeah, that's me, folks. OK. Hi, everyone. Um, my name is Lily, and [00:38:00] I am a third year student from Victoria. Um, when I first came out, I identified as bisexual, and about two years ago Now, um, I rediscovered that I am pansexual, Um, and that, um I guess today what I want to talk about in terms of my coming out story is that, um, fluidity is good. Um and that even though I don't identify as gender fluid or, um, fluid [00:38:30] in my sexuality that I definitely believe in all aspects of life, you know, your identity, um, like your future plans, Um, friends And, yeah, everything in your life that fluidity is good. And that change is OK. Um, So when I first came out, it was to my parents, Um bless their souls. I come from a very religious background. Um, so religious and Christianity and also a lot of very strong Maori [00:39:00] values. Um, and the the church that I grew up in, um, I actually am very grateful for a lot of the morals that they taught me. And also just generally how to how to work hard and also accepting and empathy. Um, I think that also helped me a lot in terms of accepting myself, um, and kind of navigating who I am and that changing. Like, even though I have changed, [00:39:30] I guess in terms of that over the years that that is OK, um, because we're all human. Um, So when I first came out, it was to my mum, and it's funny because, um, I'm very much a daddy's girl like I love like Like I love Mum, but I'm different. Like Dad just asked Daddy for everything. Um, so And when I came up to mum, I was like, Oh, this is gonna be the hard one. So I'll do this one first. Um, and it ended up [00:40:00] going kind of the way that I thought it would, um, you know, the typical Oh, You know, it's just a phase. You grow out of it. We all went through it, and I'm like, we all went through it. Um, Well, anyway, um, but yeah. So I was like, OK, that was chill. Dad would be great. Um, and I went to go tell Dad I started shaking a bit, and I'm like, No, this is gonna be fine. It's Dad. Um, and it turned out, um, that [00:40:30] that's his story, so I won't go into it. But, um, that in his life, he'd had some kind of run ins with people of different sexualities that weren't too great. Um, and because of that, he wasn't too great with my sexuality. Um, when I came up to him, he kind of just went a bit quiet, went and got his Bible and came up to me and was like, Here you go. And I looked at the page and I'm like, reading up, reading up reading. I'm like, Ok, um, so they've lumped homosexuals [00:41:00] and with prostitutes, and they were all going to help. OK, thanks, Dad. Ok, um, so that was not the best. Um, after reading that, I kind of just you know, went away for a bit. Had a bit of a cry, but, um like to say after all of that, it's been a couple of years now, and my family are very, very supportive. Um, generally, everyone knows. Everyone knows now, because at the time I had a girlfriend, and so yeah, so, Well, my nan I When I told my nan she was like, bring her to the 60th, [00:41:30] I'm like, OK, cool. And then everyone ended up finding out that way. Um, so even though, yeah, at the beginning, it was hard. Um, and it was definitely an emotional and spiritual journey. Um, that it does get better that time heals all wounds. Um, and that the people who who do really love you, they will overcome their own obstacles. You just need to give them time. Um, so in terms of the fluidity thing, [00:42:00] um, when I first came out to my friends, um, I changed friend groups a lot in high school because I was just a little fickle child. I just was like, I just said this and this and this, um and, um, the first group of friends that I had when I came out to them. Um, it was It seemed really breezy. It seemed great. They were really accepting. Um, you know. Oh, it's fine. Some of them were like, Oh, you know, the old questions are are you attracted to any of us? Blah, blah, blah, blah, And then one of them funny life. Oh, [00:42:30] yeah. Are you attracted to me? No. Um, no, not really. Why don't you think I'm pretty? And I'm like, like this? It doesn't work that way, like, but yeah, um, so it seemed all fine, and then, actually a a couple of months later, Um, not going into the details, they ended up using what they knew about my sexuality against me. Um, and certain arguments. Um, and that's why I ended up leaving that group. Because [00:43:00] it's, um yeah, like they're all lovely people. And I definitely don't have anything against them, but in terms of at the time, like, it was really hurtful. And I guess in terms, in terms of talking about fluidity, that it is OK. Um, yeah, in terms of like like if you feel like you're running away, don't put that on yourself. Like, um, things change in life and like you are, you are allowed to leave certain friend groups and leave schools [00:43:30] and leave towns. Um, if that is what you think is best for you, Um, because at the end of the day, you are only responsible for you. And so, like, doing what's best for your life is primarily important. Um, and saying that now, obviously, I've got a great group of friends who you know, um, I like I know that for a lot of people, their sexuality and their gender is a huge part of them and a really big deal. But for me, I'm just like, yeah, I'm I'm just gender and I'm pens. Yeah. So [00:44:00] what's for dinner? Um, you know, like, um but I guess in terms of that whole Yeah, um, fluidity thing and coming out, um, that Yeah, you, like the others, have said you can come out to one person. You can come out to everyone. And the thing is, is that, um, like in terms of changing your sexuality or rediscovering your real sexuality or whatever that means for you? Um, you know, you you can go back and tell friends and family that, but you don't have to. [00:44:30] You know, you could just show up with a girlfriend or a boyfriend or and then just everyone finds out then and that's OK. Like, um, I think in terms of it all is that taking the time to to really know you and coming up to yourself is what's important. Um, and that not judging yourself for changing it, you know, is is important, too. Um, yeah, that's me. [00:45:00] Hi. Um, I'm Ethan. I go by, he pronounce preferably, um, this is sort of a spontaneous. I was sitting down and feeling quite inspired, so I thought I'd share my story, too. Um, I am going to be very disorientated throughout this whole story. It won't fit together until [00:45:30] sort of the end. When you realise that actually, the end probably should have been told first, and the start probably should have been at the end. But I'll start off with saying that, um, this is not really about me. It's about the same moral that we've sort of been getting on to about change and how change is a fantastical thing. And you should always embrace it at all times and get addicted to it. because getting addicted to change is a fantastic and healthy addiction. I recommend it to everybody. Um, [00:46:00] So I guess I'll begin with, uh, I, if you couldn't tell, have never had a true male father figure. Um, my biological father, Um, I guess you could call him a rabbit or a mouse. Um, he likes to have Children and run away. Uh, so when I was about two years old, my father cheated on my mother and my mother dragged him outside the door and said, Bye bye. Um, [00:46:30] and he went on to create my other seven brothers and sisters. Um, So I then grew up in a house and forgot that I had a biological father because my mom got with a new man who also happened to be friends with my, um, father at the time. Um, not anymore. Uh, and so that was where my other little brother came from. Number eight, [00:47:00] and I grew up until about 10, thinking he was my full brother. That er was my biological father, and everything was going really smoothly. Um, from about the age of eight, I sort of knew that I liked guys like more than I liked girls, but I hung out with girls all the time. I didn't really understand how that worked. And I didn't know what it was because I grew up in a Christchurch Bogan family. Um, and I got to the age of [00:47:30] about 12, and this is where the fun parts start coming in. Uh, and I said, Hey, Mum, what does it mean to be gay? And she said, Oh, don't worry about it, it doesn't matter. It doesn't apply to you. So I thought, OK, that's cool. Then we sort of got past that. I sort of went through school being very unusual shaving my head. Um, you know, all of those Christchurch Bogan things, um, and got [00:48:00] to year nine at high school. And, uh, there was the school gay because he was the only one that was out the only one out of all 2000 students. Um and so it sort of progressed to the point. I think I came out at school and at home at very similar times, like within the same week. But then again, coming out is something that you don't do for a week. You start, and then you stop by the time your heart stops. It's a constant thing. You just don't [00:48:30] stop coming out. Um, so I sat down with my mom again, and at this time, she, um, had been in a relationship for a few years with a new man after being married for six months with the man I thought was my father, then finding out I had another father. But that's a whole another story. Very complicated, very long, very touchy emotional, Um, and so I at the time was, of course, very confused about everything that went on in my life. And I said, Mom, [00:49:00] I think I'm bisexual And she said, It's probably just a phase. We've all heard that one before, and me sort of sticking to the whole stereotypical thing, left that for about a month and then sort of went, No, Mom, I'm gay And she said, No, you've got to stick your stick and everything before you know what you are. Hm. Um, so that was interesting, and sort of at that point is when my mother's partner sort of showed his true colours [00:49:30] as a Christchurch Bogan, who also believed in extreme racism and extreme homophobia. Um, he was quite a physically abusive, emotionally abusive, mentally abusive human, not someone I recommend you ever deal with. Um, And then I came out at school and immediately because I wasn't a part of the air Cadet Force. Um, was now known as the school gay. Oh, it's that gay kid. Let's be friends with him because he's gay and he's going to be a great time. So my school outing was a [00:50:00] quite comfortable, quite relaxing, quite involved my home outing by the time I was 14, I sort of jumped out the window one morning at 7 a. m. and went and lived with my Gran for six months. Um, and then, after living with my grandmother to really embrace the whole homosexuality thing, um, and often dressed me up in her clothes for entertainment purposes, Um, [00:50:30] me and Gran went through a bit of a fallout, which was really quite sad, because I have a very strong relationship with my grandmother, and I do now. Thank goodness, um, and so in 2015, I left my grandmother's house, too, and sort of jumped around my friend's houses until I ended up living on the streets for a month, which is a very, um, eye opening experience, very disturbing experience. And, um, [00:51:00] getting past that, I found this fantastic flat who accepted me, even though all of them, all 12 of these people living in a house with nine bedrooms, um, were Christian and lovely and really accepting. And I really like to push that because I think that there's this, um, uncomfortability around the Christianity religion and that they all think that we're going to hell and, you know, we're just sort of devil spawn. [00:51:30] Um, So I sort of really appreciated the fact that these people brought me in and looked after me, and it was supposed to be two days. It turned into two weeks, and then it turned into what is now almost two years. Um, and I have found a great load of people, and my friend group always changes. I sort of jump to one friend group. And it's not always for bad reasons. It's more just we are different people now. It's been some time, and we just [00:52:00] sort of split and make new friends. Um, and I think sort of the direction I'm going once again is that change is a fantastic thing. And if you get into a situation that you like, if you don't like, if it's mediocre, if it's fantastic, just change it again. Because the next thing is coming. And the more you postpone it, the more you're going to sort of get that idea that change is a horrible thing. I like where I am now. This is good, but I think you don't realise that it could probably get better. And, um, yeah, thanks for listening. [00:52:30] Mhm respect. Morning to everyone. I thought I actually think it's a microphone. I'll just relax. Everyone. How are you? Did you sleep well? I don't You're lying. Are you? Yeah, exactly. But I lie. OK, so, um, my name is Lee, uh, Lee Eckland. And, um, I work [00:53:00] for the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, so I'm a sexual health promoter for gay and bisexual men. I will be doing a presentation today at 12 o'clock, and just, uh, I'm just gonna give you a little bit of a spiel about it. So I've got a positive speaker that's gonna come in about living with HIV and also about sexuality as well. So, um It's a very inspiring story. So, um yeah, just putting that out there. So, uh OK, so I was born in 1974. You you went Wow. [00:53:30] Like shocked. I know. I know, right? Oh, there you go. Uh, so Thank you, love. Uh, so, yeah. 1974. Um, I was born in England, Uh, town. So it's a very small fishing town. Um, so as you can imagine already that actually being a gay person in a small town was quite hard. Um, so, um, I started. I knew that I was a gay man when I was 10 [00:54:00] year old. I knew from a very, very early age, and the stronger my feelings got the worse. II I It wasn't for me to handle it, really, To be honest, I felt as though it was quite wrong to be like that. Um, especially at that age. Um, also not forgetting. When I was coming into my early teens that the epidemic of HIV and a I was absolutely rife and gay guys were dying. It was a plague, and [00:54:30] there was no cure. No one knew what it was. So that left a massive imprint in my mind. I can always remember there was an advert, and it was from such and such. And it's one of their most successful, um, adverts ever. And it was an advert of a gravestone. Um, and a grim Reaper chiselling AIDS kills, um, and it adds something about gay men underneath it. So [00:55:00] basically, he was scaring people not to have sex because there was nothing that they could do. There was no medication or anything. So, uh, so from that from then on, that absolutely imprinted in my mind that I cannot be a gay man because I will die. Um, and basically, he was stigmatising aids and HIV at that stage. But, um, because it was so lethal back in those days, I think there was a right to feel like that. Um, so as I got older, [00:55:30] my feelings were stronger and stronger. So I started, uh, dating girls at 16. So, um, still knowing what I was, um I did love them for them. Um, don't get me wrong. Um, but I still knew all the way through dating girls to the age of 21 that I knew I was a gay man, actually, my my ex girlfriend told me I was gay. So game over really, isn't it? [00:56:00] It really is. And her name was Tony. And she says to me, You didn't go out me because my name's Tony. And I was like, Fuck! Like, seriously, did you ever think of a man when we was, you know? And I was like, No, not at all. You know, I didn't know any different. I didn't sleep with a man at all, so I didn't know what it was like. So, you know, I I It was Yeah, I was bursting at the scenes to come out of the closet, to be honest, So So, um yeah. So from the age of 16 to 21 [00:56:30] I was dating girls, and then I slept with a man at 21 and it felt so right. But it was so wrong, which even messed my head up even more. Um, probably one of the other reasons for me not coming out of the closet as well was at school. Um, I did get bullied at school. Um, because I was 5 ft and a cigarette paper. I was tiny. Um, [00:57:00] so you know the short young kids at school. That was very late at growing up in every department. Um, so, you know, I was He was a target, really? And I was a little camp little twink. That voice didn't break till I was 16 17 or something. So, um and it was about I think it was proving people, right? I didn't want to prove those people right that bullied me. You know, I just wanted to stick by it and think, No, you're not right. [00:57:30] You know, I, I can get over this. And clearly, as we all know, you can't get away from what you are. Really? So you know, if you know that you got you are you can't You're not going to fight it. You can. Or you can live life absolutely miserably. Like a lot of older guys in our community back in the day, um, in the fifties and sixties, you know, um, they just followed protocol, like, got married and had kids and and imagine living a life like that, you know? [00:58:00] So So I think we've got it definitely a lot easier today than than they had it back in the day. So coming out to my parents. So 22 weeks after I engaged with this man. It's nice, man. Jordy, actually, um, two weeks after I engaged with this man, I was speaking to a friend of mine on the phone and my mother [00:58:30] just burst the door open and just looked at me, and she was grey, and she just said, Please tell me it's not true. So I'm like, um Ok, um, I'll call you back later. I've got something to talk to my mother about. And that even made me worse because I just thought, you know, they're embarrassed. I'm embarrassed in the family, you know? It's it's it's, you know, and it made me feel even more awful. So So I went downstairs and I explained to my mum, [00:59:00] I've I've always known um, you know, I, I can't fight this anymore. I can't. So you're gonna have to get used to it enough. Really. Um, so she told me not to tell my father for three years. Well, she told me not to tell my father, so fair enough. You know my dad better than me, Apparently. So I'm not gonna tell him. Uh, so, uh, when I was 20 just turned 24. I moved to the Canary Islands so called Tenerife. So imagine Ibiza. [00:59:30] So if you can imagine 24 moving to a tropical island for four years, it was fun. But I really moved away to be to to come out being a gay man, which I feel is wrong. Really. No one should really move away from where they're from to feel comfortable. But the problem was is that when I was, um when I moved away, my parents are still coming over to come and see me, but because my father didn't know, my mother knew I had to go around telling all my friends [01:00:00] just to be careful. And I was like, What? What the hell am I What am I doing? You know, I've moved 2000 miles away to actually come out of the closet. Um, it wasn't happening, So er my mum told me. She said, OK, you can tell your father. So I told my father because I was very upset about meeting someone, and it didn't work out. Uh, and then, uh, So I told him and, um, the room went absolutely quiet. So he I think that he was a bit shocked as well. So what I didn't know until [01:00:30] two days afterwards is that when my father went back to the apartment, he passed out. So my mum's got a tea towel and waff at him trying to wake him up with a tea towel. Um, and two weeks later, it so the side of his face had dropped. So I was like, Oh my God, he's had a stroke and it's my fault, but it obviously it it's got nothing to do with that ball. You can just happen at any time at all. So there was that stress on it on top as well. So [01:01:00] as the years go on, they got a lot more used to it. And do you know what it was down to that they wasn't embarrassed about me. In the fifties and sixties, gays were beaten up. They were so stigmatised and they were even killed, especially in a small town like mine. And they thought that that's what people, other people are going to treat me like, so that's what they worried about. So as soon as they knew that, everybody just treat me the same as just a normal person. That's when they was at peace of mind. And [01:01:30] as soon as my father knew that I was a gay man, that's when I started living life because I had nothing to hide anymore because he was the only person. They were the main people that I wanted to know and and everybody else knew, probably apart from them beforehand. So, yeah, um, as soon as they found out, that's when I was just being myself. So So now you know, I. I do drag now and again. My mother sends me sequin dresses through the post. My father will say, Oh, there's a number that I think it would be quite [01:02:00] funny for you. Um, it's like he's my manager. My mom's a wardrobe manager. It's It's amazing. And I never would have thought that it would have, you know, been like this. Yes, love Lily. A little loud mouth. Hey, hey, hey, Elizabeth. She's a She's an acquired taste. She's a 50 year old barfly from, um, the rovers return if you want to be perfectly honest, but yeah, but yeah, and I just think, um and my mom [01:02:30] loves it. she loves. Like she does a couple of YouTube videos. She she she absolutely loves it. And I never would have thought in years earlier that my life would have been like it was now. And I think that coming to New Zealand as well has definitely inspired me to be even more so Because I think that New Zealand's pretty much got it up there with laws and regulations for, you know, homosexual law reform, marriage, equality. The needle exchange as well is a new one. That's huge. The prostitutes collective it. You know, I, I could [01:03:00] go on. I think that this is definitely lead by example. And I feel very privileged to to call this my home now, to be honest, um, is there any other do you want? I think is that do you? No more. You found out some juice on Lily E. Ok, um 00, Um, yeah. I was wondering what is the needle exchange? [01:03:30] The the needle exchange, um is DH DP. So it's a needle exchange for, uh, people that use needles. And it's not necessarily drugs. It's for for steroids as well. And and other medications as well. So Yeah, there's a lot of stigma with that as well. But because they have got a needle exchange here, it's reducing infections of hepatitis, C and even HIV. So it's reduced it massively and it works. It's not promoting drug use. [01:04:00] It's like I I'm a sex promoter. So condom use is a is a must for us. It's our number one. I'm not promoting sex. I'm promoting safe sex, you know? And it's working. Yeah, yeah. Did you ever Did you ever expect to be cooking for a whole bunch of gas like No. So I was doing hospitality for 15 years, And, um, for me to come into this to to to [01:04:30] come to the health sector to be a health promoter I was volunteering for the New Zealand A foundation for for 3. 5 years. So for me, volunteering has completely changed my my career path, and this is and I've been wanting to know what my dream job is. And for years I came to 39 and I was like, I still don't know what. Well, actually, about 38 37 I still don't know what I want to do. I'm getting old I need to know, and it's it's bullshit. You don't You know what you want to do, and there's no time [01:05:00] span on it. So a bit of advice really don't stress out if you don't know what you want to do until you early third, you know, mid thirties, early forties, because it you don't know. It'll just come to you like that. It it's It's strange how things work out. It really is. But yeah. Oh, yeah. Um, we'll open up the panel for, I guess, like everyone for questions, for everyone, but yeah, OK, so I'm just wondering, we can go on and on [01:05:30] and on about how we have been rejected from the majority, like within our lifetime. I, I was just wondering, Have you guys ever experienced some, like, rejection or detachment from the LGBT Q plus community at any time? Um, for myself personally, um, not so much rejection. But, um, there is like, an element of, um to me. Often people don't in our community [01:06:00] don't believe or don't take me seriously as a queer person, um, as part of the community. Um, and that can be like being kind of invisible within the community can actually be really hard. Um, yeah, because you don't want to change who you are. Um, and you who you are is legitimate. And you know, all those things. Um, yeah, but sometimes not being taken seriously and not being seen by [01:06:30] the our own like community can be really hard. So that's one thing that I've, um, had a hard time with. Yeah, within the community. Um, OK, um, for me, specifically, I'm very, very, very mixed in terms of my cultures. My mum is half Japanese and half Ukrainian. And then on my dad's side, I'm like, miscellaneous into and also Maori. Um, so I kind of, like fit into a lot of different cultures and also, like, I'm transgender. And then also, I've got a diverse sexuality, So I've got [01:07:00] a lot of minority boxes that I fit into, Um, And for me, sometimes I struggle with a little bit of like, lack of intersectionality. Like some Well, like, particularly in high school. I only went to like, a couple of sessions of the QS A because, um, uh, some of the members, like it was predominantly very pakeha. And some of the members would be like, Oh, like, especially when Rachel Do came into mainstream media being like guys. I'm white, but I'm actually black. Um, [01:07:30] I, um, saw a lot of, um pakeha members of my schools QS a being like, Well, I don't see how it's different. And I was like, uh, I don't really like as one of the only Maori people in the group have to be the one to explain to you why that's bad. Like, I would like you to just be a little bit more in section in intersectional and go like research, all of the stuff on your own instead of kind of being like, No, it's cool. So, like, yeah, for me. Um, that's where I struggle a little bit. Um, but like [01:08:00] generally in my adult life recently, it's been pretty good with inside out so good at the moment. So 6. 5 gay years later. Um, I guess a lot of my I I've started to become stable in the idea of my identity as being unstable in a way so, you know, um and just there's just a a massive blur between my gender [01:08:30] identity and my sexuality because neither of them are clear cut. Of course. And I think a lot of that probably resonates to a lot of people in the room. Um, and watching the live stream. Hello? Um, so, like, where was I going to go with that? Um, so there's a lot of confusion about where I belong in, like, certain, you know, subsets of our spaces and and and in our in our communities and, like, you know, our larger rainbow community and that sort of thing. Um, And [01:09:00] despite saying that there's a larger rainbow community, you know, it's still a very, very small one. It's very insular. Uh, I discovered last night that there are people here from Invercargill and like and, you know, and we've got people from far north come from to shift as well. And like all of that like means that, you know, we deal with like, so was it was it Stewart? Ethan, why do I think? Stuart, I'm so sorry. Um, but like what you were saying [01:09:30] about, like, you know it, take that risk and, um, take that leap of faith or from faith, as it were, um, to like, you know, go to different, like find different friend circles and stuff. Um, that's really, really I. I I'll cosponsor that advice to an extent. Um, but it was also like, uh, as far as the rain community goes, there's a limit to that. And we have to be careful about how we're navigating our those relationships with each other. Right? Um, whether you're coming from a position of privilege or not just being aware [01:10:00] that, um, you know, there's only so many of us here, and, uh, that we've got to be very careful about how, um, we're navigating not just, you know, figuring out who we are and our identities and stuff. And that's very important, but also being aware that that comes in the context of everybody around us doing the same thing. And that's kind of the nuts and bolts of rainbow community. And if we're gonna have a rainbow community, we've got to be striking. You know that balance between ourselves and the collective [01:10:30] Well, my transition into the new school wasn't all going in happy with little fairies. Um, there was one aspect of like there were already, like, a whole group of gay people already there, and at one stage it was kind of a they. They made it a competition between me and them kind of thing. It's like I don't know what happened, but it's just since I was the new [01:11:00] person on the boat, they saw me as kind of like, you know, um, schools have, like, social hierarchies or something, so they saw themselves as like the only gay person. And as soon as I went into there, they saw me as they they tried being friends with me, But then they eventually they saw me as competition. And I'm just like I'm OK, and so every time, So they've kind of, like, got their little friends group. But they're they're always causing trouble with me now, and it's like [01:11:30] they're trying to make my social life kind of down there so they can be up there, so to say it's just like they want to keep on top of the crown and they don't want anybody else to take it. And as soon as they see someone new coming in, they want to pretty much keep me in my place down there, and I just want to be friends with them, that's all. And every time I try and be friends with them, they wedge something between us, [01:12:00] and it's like, very annoying. And it's just like change is a very like, good thing, but going into it blind sometimes you just don't see the real side of some people that you try and make friends with. And that's a real danger sometimes, but still take a leap without faith, like, Yeah. Hi. Yeah, So I noticed. Um, a lot of people brought up, um, religion slash Christianity. And that's [01:12:30] something that, um, really kind of speaks to me as a lesbian and former Christian who's really, really struggled with that whole journey. Um, so I was just wondering, um, like, if I could hear more about that kind of thing. Like for people that that relates to Because I've had both positive experiences with friends that are Christian, um, and accepted me. And then I've had negative experiences with who think that it's demonic and like, something [01:13:00] totally within your control and like, the whole repression of that. So that's kind of less a question and more like an invitation to elaborate. Yeah. Um, yeah. So I was raised Christian. I am no longer. Um, so I guess with my like how it related to my coming out and stuff. I had a lot of sort of false starts before I kind of realised. Oh, my God, I'm gay. [01:13:30] Um, and then Trans and Non-binary and whatever else came after that as well. Once I actually had the language to explain those things. Um, but for me, like one of my like and I And, you know, I went through several depressive episodes and the first one, you know, and like, I just struggled to understand why they were why they were happening to me, I guess. And, um, with the first one, I ended up just well, I lost my religious face because of that first one, because I was like, No, but my my my conclusion [01:14:00] after nine months of being really, really, really poor mental health, you know, my conclusion was, um you know, there's no way and benevolent God would put people through this sort of test. This is just in, like, literally insane. Like, actually, I was just, you know, out of just totally out of it mentally, um and so that so that so that kind of triggered my crisis of faith. Um, and, uh, so sort of almost actually ended up testing the waters for coming up [01:14:30] before I realised that that was what I was doing because this was all still, like I was 18 when I was like, Oh, my God, actually, I'm gay. What am I going to do about myself for my life? Um, but, uh, so this was, like, 15 or 16 Where, um, I was looking at, you know? Oh, I don't believe in God anymore. What just happened after that? Nine months And, like, um, I I So I tested the waters that Christmas, and I was like, um, Mum, Dad, I don't want to go to the Christmas service. I don't believe in God anymore. And my dad goes, No, you do. Yeah, [01:15:00] you do. You know, I mean, you believe in God. No, you can't. You can't do that. No, you're not. I'm an atheist. No, you're not. No, you're not. So when I was getting ready to poise to come out and stuff, I was just terrified that he was going to be his reaction, right? No, you're not. Um, but it was interesting How those like those overlaps actually allowed. Give me. Gave me another opportunity to sort of test the waters as well. Um, instead of like, doing the well, I also did the whole test in the waters with I think I might be buying a card as well. Um, [01:15:30] but like that also, So I managed. I guess I managed to present it as an opportunity. Yeah. Um, yeah, uh, in terms of any kind of spirituality, I think it is, um, a really difficult journey when your identity clashes with, you know, your belief systems and especially growing up, um, Christian or growing up in any faith. Um, And then suddenly, you know, um, a part of [01:16:00] your identity Kind of being a bad part of that faith is, um, it definitely you have a war within yourself. You do, um, for a long, long time. Um and I guess the things that I've learned from it, um are that, um, it's it is difficult and that finding good mentors, finding good support. Um, actually, one of the best people for that support was, um, the [01:16:30] previous pastor of my church. Um, she was a stone and um, not in the way that we had huge discussions about my sexuality and like, Oh, yeah, you know, um, talking about, um it was, like, for me, it was more the fact that she was just very steady, Um, and treated me the same and, um, didn't didn't make a big old fuss about it, which, um, at the time, actually was what I needed the most. Um, in terms of having friends that will accept you. It's amazing. [01:17:00] Um, and that that's the thing. Like, there will be people anywhere. Um, no matter if they're religious or not or, you know, from from different backgrounds or, um, you know, any kind of context like that, there are gonna be people who will accept you and reject you. Um, and it's just I guess, uh, it's kind of a The thing to do is having to find the people who will be there for you and not exactly cutting off the people who won't. But, um, putting down boundaries [01:17:30] and saying, Look, this this is who I am, and if you're not going to accept me for who I am, then I can't have you coming into my space I can't have you coming in to my life and wreaking that havoc, you know, because, I mean, I'm sure you guys will relate. We've we've fought ourselves and you know, other other people in our lives to to be where we are today, um, and that also, in terms of going forward with religion, like, I'm I don't say that I'm Christian [01:18:00] anymore, but I haven't put the not, like, completely shut the door. Um, So because there are parts of the religion that, um, are the faith and the practises that that have made me who I am, Um, and I think they're still very, very beautiful. Um, and the way that I've moved forward with that is that, um, like, it's like some people think it's kind of wrong to go to services and not kind of announce that, you know, like you, you're, [01:18:30] you know, not of, um, you know, straight sexuality or your gender. But the thing is, is that you don't have to feel pressured or like, you're a a bad person for going to any kind of religious thing where they believe that these people shouldn't be here. Um, because at the end, of the day. Um, I feel like a lot of religions are about accepting and love and peace. And so if people aren't going to practise what they preach, then that's their That's their problem. [01:19:00] And it has nothing to do with who you are. Um, and it's just the fact that we're all human and that we're all evolving and struggling and that those people just have a bit more to struggle. And that's OK. Um, yeah, we just have one online question, which is a pretty broad question. So you're all welcome to answer it. Um, if you had one wish for the LGBT Q plus community, what would it be and why, thank you. I think it's a pretty generic wish. And as much as I love being special, [01:19:30] I think it would be fantastic, you know? And I think all of us probably secretly wish this somewhere down deep in our hearts that one day you can just be like I mean, coming out just doesn't exist. It's just like you don't assume anything you don't. It's just like Oh, mom, Dad, Oh, school. Oh, everyone. I like guys and they're just like cool. What's next thanks. Yeah. Um, I guess my wish. Um, after being at the [01:20:00] would be for that, um, towns and countries and, well, just general communities, um, come to not only accept us, but support us and, you know, give us resources and funding and support just general support so that we can keep having workshops and camps and having areas where people can feel safe to be who they are and tell their stories and learn and share. Um, yeah, that would be a awesome wish for [01:20:30] me. Yeah, my way would be probably less boundaries between everybody like religion, LGBT, Q, different people, just those boundaries that separate us into different groups. Just to go all together and us to just mingle together because it's just like we're all the same. In essence, although we have different unique beliefs, we're all one [01:21:00] people in the end, that's it. We're just one group of people living on a really lonely planet. So it's like it's just all be one instead of divided. Um, I have so many wishes for our communities, um, but I think one that I like stands out to me at the moment. Is that, um, that our relationships, not just our intimate, like our partner relationships, [01:21:30] but our friendships and our queer way of being with each other. Um, I'd love to see that celebrated because I think that that is just for me. It's been like one of the absolute best parts of my life, and I think that we have a really special thing that we can offer each other and also everyone else everyone else who's not part of our communities. And I really would just love to see, um, that recognised and celebrated, Um, as much as it should be. Um, OK, my big [01:22:00] wish for, um, LGBT communities all over the world is, um, the deconstruction of institutionalised systems of oppression against trans and gay and everything. Um um and also just, like free. Like cheap access to healthcare for trans people. Please. Like please, um, like like, make it easier. Don't You don't have to be diagnosed with some stupid disorder to be trans like, Let people just, like, have access to hormones [01:22:30] when they need it. Um, and also like the end of violence towards G BT people. My and my thoughts are with the people in Russia, right? now? Um, yeah. It would be great if that stopped. Cool. Ja. Jay saw a whole heap of my thunder. So all I So all I'm going to say is smash capitalism. [01:23:00] It's sad to be so Got nothing to say now, which has not happened often. Uh, a perfect example. The law reform 1986. It wasn't just gay men that lobbied for that. It was it was everybody. A community can make such a change in life in society. It's important that everybody just we stick together because you you don't know whether we we we'll need that again one day. I'll tell you that now. So, um, it's just rainbow power, [01:23:30] isn't it? Puke and rainbows everywhere.

IRN: 1108
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089772
TITLE: Chechnya Vigil
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Amanduh la Whore; Jan Logie; Max Tweedie; Shelley Te Waiariki Howard
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Adrian Renor; Amanduh la Whore; Amnesty International; Aotea Square (Auckland); Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auschwitz concentration camp; Australian High Commission; Canada; Chechnya; Chechnya Vigil (Wellington); Donald Trump; Embassy of the Russian Federation in New Zealand; European Union; Germany; God; Grant Robertson; Jan Logie; Max Tweedie; Member of Parliament; Mr Gay Wellington; Murray McCully; Nazi Germany; Ngāti Raukawa; Nigeria; Parliament buildings; Rainbow NZ Parliamentary Network; Rainbow flag; Roxy Coervers; Russia; Shelley Te Waiariki Howard; Shift hui; Shift hui (2017); The Holocaust; Uganda; United Kingdom; United States of America; abuse; activism; bigotry; binary; bisexual; community; concentration camp; crime; cross political party working group; death; democracy; diversity; education; facebook. com; flags; freedom; gay; gender; gender binary; gender diverse; government; homophobic violence; homosexual law reform; hope; human rights; indigenous peoples; indigenous rights; kaumatua; love; marae; murder; non-binary; people of colour; photography; police; politics; prayer; public display of affection (PDA); queer; school; silence; singing; social media; social networking; solidarity; state violence; support; torture; tupuna; tupuna takatāpui; vigil; violence; waiata; whenua; whānau; women; youth
DATE: 18 April 2017
YEAR: 2017
LOCATION: Embassy of the Russian Federation in New Zealand, 57 Messines Road, Karori, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the Chechnya Vigil held outside the Russian embassy in Wellington. The candlelight vigil was organised to show solidarity with the people who have reportedly been rounded up in Chechnya because of their gay or bisexual orientation (or perceived sexual orientation) and then detained in concentration-like prisons. Some of these people are now missing and at least three have been murdered.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So the reason why we're here is because of the incident that's happening in Chechnya. It's, uh the reports that I've heard have come from London and Canada, and that is 100 gay men have been dragged out of their homes, tortured and abused. One lady made a statement to the British press that her 18 year old son you [00:00:30] know how you bend your knee like this. His knee was smashed so that his leg bent up, not down. He was dragged out of his home. Now you imagine as a mother or as a brother of an 18 year old boy being dragged out of your home and then going missing. Nobody knows where this boy is because England has made a big fuss. Then America. And Sunday it was Canada [00:01:00] in New Zealand. We decided to run concurrently with Auckland to show our disdain for what's happening in Chechnya and to bring awareness to our New Zealand government to the foreign minister of foreign affairs, to ask him if he would do something you imagine. Do we all know about AWI that happened in the Second World War with the Jews? That same process is happening now and the more silent [00:01:30] we are national internationally, the more people will die. So if we weren't here tonight, those people over there that are suffering and that are frightened about what tomorrow's gonna bring, just the fact that there is someone listening on the outside. Can you imagine how uplifting it is for them? I talked to the police commissioner yesterday and told him what we were doing today. Apparently, the Russians are very anti protest, [00:02:00] so they're gonna get very angry feelings. So what the police commissioner has asked in Auckland? They're gonna chant and they're gonna make a lot of noise because they're in a square because we are here in Wellington. We were offered the steps of Parliament, but I said to them I'd rather not go to Parliament. We have the embassy right here. Why don't we stand outside the embassy and just be quiet? And I think taken take this opportunity [00:02:30] to be still and think of the three men that were murdered on Thursday and that 18 year old boy that disappeared. Now there are there are four questions that need to be addressed, So we're going to ask them concurrently. Oh, Hello. Oh, I can't hear you like to know what happened. Oh, a There have been three murders, my love. We're just here. It's three murders in Chechnya, my [00:03:00] love. So we're just here paying, um, homage to the people that were killed. Now can she can all my love bubble I. I can't hear you screaming at me like that from way up there. So what did you say? Oh, no, no, no. Could you kindly come out and converse? That would be delicious. OK, so I guess if they do want to talk, we're going to be as diplomatic [00:03:30] as possible. Is that OK? And I think as honest as possible. If they're asking questions, we will be deliberate with our answers. But I'm gonna hand this time over to Jan, and I'm just going to converse with Roxy and I'll go and see what these people are doing. Well, um, I'm here on behalf of the Green Party, but also the parliamentary Rainbow Network, which is a, um, group of MP S across [00:04:00] all the different parties in parliament, Um, who are standing up for LGBTI rights. And we just, um, were asked to come and talk about what's been happening, and Amanda's, you know, talk to you a bit about that in some of the reports. And we know that the US, um, have condemned what's happening in Chechnya. The European Union president has also spoken out, and the cross party network has written to our [00:04:30] minister of foreign affairs asking, um, him to stand up and ask the Russian government to investigate what's happening, that there needs to be clearly immediately an end to the violence. The men who are being illegally detained must be released, and there needs to be a proper investigation into what's going on. Um, [00:05:00] and that and around the world, we need to stand in solidarity with those men. And they are gay and bisexual men and men who are perceived to be gay or bisexual, who have been taken and detained in what has been described as concentration camps and that we know that speaking up is that silence is a form of death, and without [00:05:30] speaking up, we are in some ways, um, allowing that violence to happen. So it's really great to see all of you here, and we will keep um and letting them waiting to hear from the minister and, um, pushing if we don't hear back from him soon about the New Zealand government's response so that, you know, our government can stand up on behalf of all of us to make sure that we're part of a really [00:06:00] strong position internationally, that human rights are universal. They're not just for some groups of people, you know. And there, sadly, are still too many countries in the world that don't see us as fully human. And that means that in places like a where we've made certain progress, we have more duty to be able to stand on behalf of those other people who have been silenced [00:06:30] and indeed murdered, as is the case in Chechnya. So thanks. Oh, and I should have said, too, that Grant Robertson said he wasn't in town today and I did say I would pass on that. He's here in spirit and as part of the cross party network, um, and is doing whatever he can and looking for the opportunity to support as well. So Jan, why has the government been so slow to respond? I I'm not sure, um [00:07:00] we know that actually, New Zealand's been really good on these issues in the past. And I know when Russia was, um, pushing the traditional family values platform in the UN Human Rights Council as a trying way to suppress LGBTI rights and discussion, New Zealand was one of the active campaigners against that. And we've we've traditionally been one of the global leaders, so I'm hoping it's just for administrative reasons that they haven't, you [00:07:30] know, spoken up yet. But apparently there are no gay people in Chechnya. I yes, yeah, there's no problem. And there's no gay people and, um which, you know, like, how disturbing is that? It's just such an extreme comment. And it, you know, though, there are echoes of that for me in terms of some of the schools in New Zealand who have said that there's no yeah [00:08:00] to take your government sending this to the people in Chechnya who have been detained for being gay or bisexual. OK, what's your position with the embassy? Hi. Ok, thank you. Just repeat, repeat. What's your position here? [00:08:30] What's your position here at the embassy? You know I am not speak good. Speak English. You speak in Chechnya [00:09:00] on in here. This guy. Yeah. I want to show more picture. Please, please, [00:09:30] Please. Please. You, You, you, you No, no, no. You He likes cameras. Ok, Ok. Oh, uh, my yes. Hasn't [00:10:00] list. Yeah, yeah. So if you if you could imagine if this is what they're doing here in our country, imagine what they're doing to the gay men in Chechnya. [00:10:30] And it was another. I don't know whether Roxy given you any information yet. Roxy, have you been able to talk? The rock has got amazing information of how we can support, um, the people over there. But another thing that I noticed was I didn't realise out of the population of Chechnya, they have no gay people. Yes. Yes. So neither do I. But, you know, this is this is we're creating history here. Everybody, and [00:11:00] this is empowering to know that, especially seeing so many young faces you people little do you know it? We won't be around forever. We are like your or the on the but we won't be around forever. And the thing that absolutely grabs me and excites me so much is that there are young people willing to stand up and have a voice and speak when no one else can. [00:11:30] Everyone, uh, as Amanda touched on before she said, I had a few more ways in which you could help raise awareness and help with the cause. There's not much that we can do being in New Zealand, but the smallest things really can make a difference. The first thing that you can do is you can write to your ministers. You can write to your local MP S, your government officials. I know we've got Jan here and we are waiting to hear back. But the more pressure that we can apply, the further and faster we'll get a response [00:12:00] I'm gonna get run over by cars, makes me nervous. Um, the second thing we can do is that there is an Amnesty International petition running at the moment. What I'll do is I'll post it into the Facebook event when I get home so that y'all can click through and link on that, Um, there are a number of organisations collecting donations directly for um LGBTI Q a plus groups on the ground in Chechnya. They're operating underground. Obviously you can't be open. You can't be proud. [00:12:30] You can't outwardly help the people in need. But there are organisations that are working externally to provide that money. Um so I'm sure you will know the background to this that has been covered before. Um, the most important thing is that this is a peaceful vigil of solidarity. This is this is not an outspoken action. This is This is a call to our government for action to show that Oh, hello. [00:13:00] That we care and that we're we're watching and we support our gay brothers in Chechnya. Um, here is the release Gay men arrested in a purge in the Russian region of Chechnya are being held in concentration camp style prisons. Russian newspapers and human rights group report that more than 100 gay men have been detained in connection with their nontraditional sexual orientation or suspicion of such as part of a purge. Several people [00:13:30] were also reportedly feared dead following violent raids. Um, as a follow on from that, there have been three confirmed fatalities and the dissemination of information is not really flowing freely. So there's no counting how far that's moved on. Oh, reports have emerged since that the men arrested are being kept in horrific, horrific, concentration camp style prisons where violent abuse and torture is common. There's reports of electrocution. There is reports of brutal beatings, the [00:14:00] men of their some of the men. Some of the hostages are being released on the proviso that when they are released back to their families, their families murder them. There is no there's. There's no way you can escape from that And a chilling response, The Chechen government spokesperson denied that there are any gay people to detain, insisting that you can't detain and harass someone who doesn't exist in the republic. That is a direct quote from the spokesperson. The Kremlin also denied any knowledge of a purge, [00:14:30] so they're denying anything is even happening in the first place, which is delightful. The purpose of this evening is just a peaceful standing in solidarity with those affected with their families, their lovers, their Children, their coworkers and everyone affected as such. Yeah, so basically, go and check out the links for that. The event for those petition links and make as much noise as you can. Silence is apathy, [00:15:00] and apathy is not what we need in 2017, and not what we need fighting against something like this. Someone else want to say something to anybody? How do you young people feel? II. I remember when I first got the, um Oh, hold it up. Call. Um, I remember when I got the news alert on my phone, Um, that this was happening. [00:15:30] Um, And it it immediately broke my heart because obviously we know that Russia doesn't have the best track record with, you know, LGBT rights or human rights, for that matter. Um and then, yeah, reading the reports that there have been people murdered that they, um they're being tortured. But I think worst of all that they're being forced to torture each other. There are reports that they're forced to beat each other and out each other and, um, cause more harm in their community. And that really breaks my heart as a as [00:16:00] a 19 year old gay man. It really breaks my heart that there is that I live. I'm so privileged to live and to be born in New Zealand, where I don't have to worry about holding my boyfriend's hand down the street that I'm fear of being tortured and imprisoned for being who I am, um and yeah, I think it's really important. And it's so heartwarming that we're all here together to share in that message of so solidarity and that message of hope, Um, and stand with human rights across the world. Because if [00:16:30] if if not us, then who? Um and yeah, we we can't go unheard. And, um, it's a real, um I think privilege to be able to stand here and speak openly with a pride flag around my neck. Um, without fear of, um, Reprisal. So, um, I'm really privileged to be standing here, Um, and glad that I can share that privilege to help share the voices of those that have been silent. So, yeah, thank you for being that killed her. Right. [00:17:00] Hi. Hi. Is Amanda here? You're a OK. Cool. Um, you can't stay on the road. You need to move on to the footpath in a way, and it's the driveway. You you have to do it. We're happy to do what you do need to do, but you need to do it on the footpath. You cannot. People come in. It's a very great street. Um, [00:17:30] onto the footpath, please. Not blocking the driveway. What is the protest about the gathering for? Is it a protest? Or is it? No, it's just a vigil. There's been a tonne and chicha with three men. So what we doing here? And they were LGBTI. So we're just here paying homage. OK, how long do you intend to stay here? We didn't actually have a time frame. Do you have to? Not at all. [00:18:00] But it is half past seven at night and you're not making work. And to make sure those men are taken out of detention and released and kept safe you are you going to be here? It's OK. Don't get [00:18:30] about the sedation here. The situation. How can you not be aware? There is no So there's no situation in Chechnya and there's no situation outside your embassy. So does everyone need a little update on what's happening in my love? Oh, yes. [00:19:00] OK, So what's happening thus far is the New Zealand Police Department has officially come to support us, Really. And their biggest concern is that we stay off the road as much as possible because what we're doing is we're frightening people as they come around, they see a great big, huge white Christmas tree and they want to run. So if we can frighten people, stay to the left. The boy who I spoke with his name is Bastian. He didn't give an [00:19:30] official position with the Russian embassy, and he didn't really want to speak while he was being recorded. So I couldn't ask him any questions and that the police have just informed us if I can put it to you simply. This is just like being on a We have to have as much respect for their for their people for their as we would if we were gonna step onto a [00:20:00] I'm Stefan. I'm part German, and I actually grew up with the history of the German people and concentration camps, and it took me. It's part of the German psyche. I guess you you take a long time to process the history. And, um, I had lots of conversations with survivors of concentration camps, um, and family members who experience this and I'm I'm just horrified that in my lifetime, [00:20:30] um, people would be taken away and locked up in consultation camps for being just like me. And like you, I'm just and and I'm also disgusted that our government hasn't put out any statements in that regard. Um, I think the European Union is showing the way. And I, I just wish that our government, you know, lived up to their dreams of being, you know, liberal democracy. An example [00:21:00] to everyone else. Um, there's so much more that we can do to raise awareness. And, um, yeah, I just want to thank you. You and everyone who's here. Uh, because this is really, um gives me warmth, uh, to my heart, uh, that there are people around the world who care enough, uh, to stand up and and and say, This is not good, and that's that's not good. Uh, we need to change things. Um, but I also like to to remind everyone that what's happening [00:21:30] in Chechnya is horrible. But there are other countries in the world like Uganda and, uh, lots of African countries where gay men and women, um, and others are persecuted as well, and we should we we cannot forget about them as well. So, um, our, um you know, the rights and the freedom that we enjoy here in New Zealand is really, um a privilege. Um, we need to remember those who are elsewhere who are not enjoying the same rights. [00:22:00] Um, and and still activate to to try to change that. Thank you. Thank you so much. Uh, my name's Shelley. Some of you know me. Um, yeah, I came here with the intention of protesting and to give a bit of an explanation of the markings on my hat and on in the back of my jacket. I was struck by the irony that, uh, police and Russian [00:22:30] police carry the label homo on their, uh, on their uniforms. That's Russian for police, but but the irony is completely not lost on me. Um, and II. I wore that label and represented myself as a outlandish police person for the purpose of highlighting the ridiculousness of what is going on. Uh, and not just with the, um [00:23:00] programme that's going on at the moment for gay people in in Chechnya, but for the whole issue of bigotry and non inclusiveness that permits the whole world at the moment, it's a global issue, and and it affects all sorts of different people. Queer folk are not alone in the struggle. People of colour still struggle. Women still struggle for status and [00:23:30] recognition in so many different countries. There is an awful lot of work to do in the in the forum of of Human Rights and and it's we all of us are fighting for the same in gold. While it is great for us as a queer community to come together in A in A situation like this, we shouldn't lose sight of all of those other, um, people who are suffering in dignity and bigotry around the world and for many of them, various [00:24:00] forms of violence and abuse. And we need to, uh and we need, I think, to pull together as a whole, all of our groups and all of our supporters and come back to it as a whole because I firmly believe that if we can do that and start pulling together in the commonality of of the of our own, uh, individual goals and achievements, that we will suddenly realise that actually we are probably the majority and that we can if using [00:24:30] the power of people, affect real physical change, we need to change the narrative by which we think and operate, and that means turning the binary on its head and accepting that diversity is the human condition, not not binary. Binary is just a part of the human condition, and all of us are human. And we should start from that level of thinking and approach all of our problems and all of the issues from that perspective, not trying to accommodate [00:25:00] around the binary narrative. That's where we lose all the time. Shelley. Sorry. Can I just get you to stand there? Does everyone know what binary means? We all do. Just because I'm not used to this. Shelley, can you explain to me what binary means? The binary narrative, uh, that I refer to as the narrative that I grew up with, that men were males, women were female, [00:25:30] that there were only two genders, that that was the basis for all existence, life in particular human life. And that all of the rules, all of the regulations that I grew up with were built and based around that. So the segregation in terms of toilets and and all of those other things that we've come to accept as normal and that's the danger that's become the normal, so everything that has happened since. In terms of human rights, even the [00:26:00] even the homosexual law reform is based around a accommodation to fit with that normal. That should be the other way around. That's my argument. Thank you. Thank you. Ok, um my, um my Hi. I'm Lynn. And my first response on hearing about the, uh, church near torture council is that any society that persecutes one group makes the whole society unsafe because that means there is no freedom [00:26:30] at all. For anyone in that society, there's just a climate of fear, and it stifles growth and creativity and just freedom. That's my basically my response. Thank you. Hi. So, um, I'm American, so I think especially concerning my country and everything that's just been going on lately. Um, I think it's so important. I think what matters most is education [00:27:00] is people just don't understand. They just they just see it and they're like, Oh, I don't want to bother or I just don't They just don't understand it. And I think it just takes education and just understanding. And and I know it's kind of ironic because we have Donald Trump. So, um, but that's why I came to New Zealand because I was like, I do not want to put up with that. So I just left. And I think a lot of people now realise how important it is just to get educated [00:27:30] and see even the people that you're putting in power. You know, just how how much power they have and what they can do. And it's scary. And welcome to New Zealand. Thank you for having me. Hi. Sorry. I wish I had a stool. Um, I'm Adrian. Um, tomorrow, I'm going to, um, be working, um, at a that we throw every [00:28:00] year for clear Go. Um, and, um, i'll be doing a couple of workshops there and just hanging out with, um, our young ones. And, um, I know that a lot of them have been feeling really feeling this. Um and so a lot of what we plan to do with the is, like support and uplift and build back the confidence and strength again. And I definitely will be mentioning this because this is a lovely turnout and a lovely thing that we're doing. So I just wanted to thank everyone for doing this, [00:28:30] So thank you Mr Gay. Well, congratulations. Well, I was talking before, and somebody suggested I should perhaps get it on record. Um, a a couple of years ago, there was a protest outside the Australian High Commission. I think it is here in Wellington where we, um, were concerned about, uh, West Australia and its legislation to take, um, indigenous people from their tribal lands and bring [00:29:00] them into, um, settlements, not which probably turned out to be not, unlike concentration camps in form. But anyway, as an aside, um, we gathered as a slightly larger party outside the Australian High Commission. We did block the entrance way, and we did block part of the road. Um, there was no police presence, so I just thought that might be a point of interest in relation to what's going on here. [00:29:30] Does anybody know any Maori songs? Um, I don't wanna know about peace and love. She's been saying very silent, but she she is, um a very, um um amazing, uh, young, um uh, Maori leader. And, um, she's been saying very humbly quiet, but I think she should come up the front. What? What's a gorgeous song? [00:30:00] Um, there's so many gorgeous songs. Uh, you too. [00:30:30] Oh, you haven't finished yet? One more, you know, Does everyone know? Does anyone know? Oh, God. [00:31:00] Tea. Oh, my Oh, OK, I [00:31:30] Yeah. Oh, mhm. Fuck. Hey, no Pick up, OK? [00:32:00] Yeah. Oh, hey, the Oh, ok. Mhm. Oh, on to hey! Oh, [00:32:30] oh, no. I mhm fuck to pick up, OK? Oh, my [00:33:00] to table. Mhm. OK, to I Oh, first point. Oh, hey, [00:33:30] Uh, mean yeah. Did you feel the and the way I sang that in in, um where I'm from? That song is always sung to that pass. So as a child, [00:34:00] I was told When you sing it, you sing it as if that queer was inside your your your inside your body So that when hears it he knows that you are singing to the dead and I think that's appropriate. So while I sang that second verse in my heart I thought of those men that may have been alone and they didn't [00:34:30] have a And I hope that somewhere and that they would have heard that song. I knew that I was singing like I was singing it to my own because really, when we pass from this world. Everyone, we are all blood and bone and sin you. There is no distinction between colour [00:35:00] or gender. The only distinction that we have is the and the love that we leave. And this is something you can all be proud of because right now you are showing your and you are showing your love. And hopefully those men that passed and the people that are in pain right now are feeling us and knowing that somebody in the darkness keys So that's a great thing. [00:35:30] And for all the people, all our that are passed. If you're here tonight and you have a mummy or a hurt, share that quietly to yourself and know that someone's listening and that someone cares, I think that would be a really poignant time to just bow our heads. Would anybody like to offer [00:36:00] our prayer for tonight just in memory of those that aren't here and also to commemorate those men in Chechnya that had passed? No. Because they're the reason why we've come together. Ah God, we just, um [00:36:30] no matter where we come from with this we are all hurting because our brothers and sisters are hurting um we just want to leave it at your feet and show our love and how much we deeply care for, um our across the world. And we just we we put it down and we rest and that things can and will change and have changed. Um, And we we have faith in the power of community and of coming [00:37:00] together and of singing and not of violence. And we just pray that it at a time such as this that we continue to come together, continue to put love at the forefront of our tongues and our actions. God, we're so thankful for this privilege that we have to sing together and to use our privilege for those who don't have the same rights as we do right now in your name, we [00:37:30] pray. Amen. Sure. Right. Let's sing one song together, shall we? Pork? Yeah. Water [00:38:00] my Oh, come Yeah, [00:38:30] out here. No way. Tell you VD oil. No. Yeah, yeah. [00:39:00] No. Yeah a you. [00:39:30] Thank you so much for being here. I'd like to especially thank Roxy. You little trooper. Just amazing. Anybody needs anything done, find her on Facebook. She is amazing. She's like I dream of Jeannie. Honestly, Roxy, thank you. From the the bottom of my heart. Man, I thank you so [00:40:00] much for for coming and doing this and being here. You are delicious. And to our gorgeous MP. Jen Lo, let's have a huge round of applause for Jen. Thank you for your continued support. Thank you. Is your favourite.

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TITLE: Wellington Pride Parade 2017
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VOICES: Adrienne Girling; Amanduh la Whore; Deborah Stewart; Des Smith; Grant Robertson; Heta Timu; James Bennett; Jan Logie; John Jolliff; Jonathan Gee; Justin Lester; Kate Aschoff; Kevin Haunui; Louisa Wall; Mari North; Miss Cola; Rawa Karetai; Suzanne Tamaki
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; 2010s; ANZ Bank New Zealand; Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC); Adrienne Girling; Amanduh la Whore; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Australia; Bisexual flag; Christianity; Connor McLeod; Courtenay Place; DANSS (Wellington); Dana de Milo; Day of Silence; Deborah Stewart; Des Smith; Devotion (Wellington); Devotion parade; Different Strokes Wellington (DSW); Donald Trump; Education Review Office (ERO); Ending HIV (campaign); Grant Robertson; Green Party; HIV / AIDS; HIV education; HIV stigma; Heta Timu; InsideOUT Kōaro; James Bennett; Jan Logie; John Jolliff; Jonathan Gee; Justin Lester; Kate Aschoff; Kevin Haunui; London; Louisa Wall; Love parade (Wellington); Mari North; Member of Parliament; Miss Cola; NZAF Ā whina Centre; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand Council of Trade Unions (CTU); New Zealand Labour Party; New Zealand Police; New Zealand Union of Students' Associations; Out in the Park (Wellington); Pansexual flag; Paris; Post Primary Teachers Association (PPTA); Pride; Pride Parade (Wellington); Pride parade; Pride parade (Auckland); Rainbow Pages; Rainbow flag; Rawa Karetai; Segway; Shift hui; Singapore; Suzanne Tamaki; Sydney; Sydney Mardi Gras; Tennyson Street; Transgender flag; Tīwhanawhana; Waitangi Park; Wellington; Wellington Batucada; Wellington City Council; Wellington Pride Festival (2017); acceptance; attack; bisexual; church; community; condoms; dance; dignity agenda; drag; endocrinologist; flags; gay; gender dysphoria; gender identity; gender reassignment surgery; genderqueer; health; health care; health rights; health system; homophobia; homophobic violence; homosexual law reform; hormone replacement therapy (HRT); hormone treatment; intersex; lesbian; marriage equality; mayor; non-binary; pansexual; parade; police; queer; safe sex; safe space; school; sex education; stigma; suicide prevention; support; surgery; teacher; tertiary education; transgender; university; visibility; volunteer; whānau; women's rights; youth; youth group
DATE: 18 March 2017
YEAR: 2017
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Audio from the Wellington Pride Parade 2017. This was the first time in over two decades that a pride parade has marched through the city. A special thank you to the participants and organisers for allowing us to record this event.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Can we all just line up over here and kneel down so that everyone has an opportunity to be in the photograph? This looks great. You all look fabulous and so clean. Brendan, glasses out, please. Thank you. Standing up straight, Long necks. Thank you so much. Now let's have your hands up and go have your pride. 5432 now! Oh, my God, That sounded like my mother's funeral. [00:00:30] Now let's do it again. And let's all say happy pride like you mean it. 54321. Oh, that was delicious. I'm Suzanne Tay. I'm with Wellington City Council and I got wrangled in today by Amanda. Thanks a lot, Amanda. Um and she's asked me to lead the parade, which is an absolute privilege. It's so great to be here with the community today. [00:01:00] Um, it's It's also quite sad because a lot of the community aren't here today. And it's nice to see a lot of young people here as well who are really, really proud to be gay and out there, and and we're going to be walking through the streets of Wellington. I'm gonna be interested to see what the responses are like from the people out there. And then the other thing I'm here for as well as my boss told me, I have to keep an eye on the health and safety. So I'm on a Segway. I think I'm probably the worst person right [00:01:30] now to be thinking about health and safety, but I'm sure it'll be fabulous and everyone's going to have a great time. I might go look at that flag. It's amazing. Wow, How big is it? Is it like 20 metres? Something like that? That is stunning. Oh, wow, that looks incredible. That is gonna look so epic going down Courtney place. Right? So we gotta make sure that we keep within the the two lanes that we're at. So you guys sometimes [00:02:00] may need to walk closer together, but the idea is to try and keep it as tall as possible and try not to drag it along the road because it's actually a very special flag. It's, uh, one of our international flags that's come all the way in from across the seas to be with us today. It's 50 metres long, and it has been at the front of many parades around the world. So everybody knows now where they are standing. I think we've got it all up. Let's see whether we can get it up in the air and see whether we can get it to [00:02:30] perfect. That's beautiful. If you guys keep it nice and level, then it's gonna look perfect. But hold it in one hand and wave with the other and enjoy yourselves. Have a great time. Thanks so much student association for for walking the flank. My name is Jonathan G. I'm here representing the New Zealand Union of Students Associations. So I'm here to say that, um, tertiary institutions should be an inclusive environment for, um, people of LGBT [00:03:00] Q I, um of that community. And you're doing something very special today with the pride parade. Uh, yes, we are. We're carrying this very, very, uh, special flag. Yes. So what does it mean to carry the rainbow flag? Um, so we got told about the the history of the flag and how, um, it was, um, stitched by, um, by families who had family members who died of HIV, um, in London. And it's been, um, around Pride parades around, um, in London. and Paris, [00:03:30] and it's just most recently been in Singapore. Um, and it's the first time ever that it's been here in New Zealand. So I think it's a very, very special thing. Yeah, so it's not only the main rainbow flag, but we've got a multitude of flags here. Can we go through? Uh, some of the other flags we've got. OK, so this one that I'm wearing is the trans flag, so that can also encompass gender queer non-binary, if that's the flag that people want to identify with, Uh, this flag here is the bisexual flag, and this one is the pan sexual flag. And this is the [00:04:00] main gay pride Rainbow flag. I know that the, um, bisexual flag is like pink and blue make purple or something like that. That's why they've chosen these colours for it. I'm not too sure about the other ones, but I'm not too sure about the symbolism of the flag. But, um, Pansexuality is, um I guess, sexuality that encompasses all genders, male, female and everything in between. What does carrying the flag in the pride parade mean to you today? [00:04:30] I didn't actually know we were going to be doing it. Um, but oh, my God, This is like a really huge honour. I'm, like, really, like, humbled to know that we we're gonna be carrying this and that. It's like the first pride parade in, like, almost 30 years and that we're going to be the ones that are, like, you know, carrying the torch for, like, future generations of LGBT Q people. Yeah, it's Yeah, it's a It's a massive honour. There's so much, um, sacrifice [00:05:00] involved in, like this particular flag. Um and yeah, it's a huge, huge honour to carry it. Yeah, definitely. Like, um, I started coming out this summer as bisexual, And so I came here, not really, you know, wanting to be a part of it, But I wasn't expecting to be part of something so huge and significant. So I feel very privileged to be here with the uni. Um, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's just an absolute honour. I mean, it's really hard not to want to cry when you hear about the story behind it, because it's so amazing what these [00:05:30] people have done after what they had to go through. And I just think that we're so privileged, and And I feel very humbled to be asked to, you know, be a part of carrying this flag with so much meaning behind it. Yeah, I think, yeah, it's such an incredible privilege to be able to to hold this flag. And, um yeah, and I couldn't help but getting bit of goosebumps when we were talk When, um, the history of it was, um, talked about to us. So, um yeah. No, it's really, really, um, fantastic that we have this opportunity and, um, they said that they want us to to carry it because [00:06:00] we're the, um we're young people and we are the leaders of the future who can hopefully sort of carry a a new sort of inclusive culture. Um um of the queer community, um, into New Zealand society. So it's it's very very, uh, special. Ok, Hi. I'm Adrian Girling, and I'm the chair of Wellington Pride. So kind of the chair of this whole operation, which just feels really surreal to me. Um, you know, we started modestly with a parade [00:06:30] two years ago in 2015 and started to take over the footpaths and the waterfront. And, you know, we started to make ourselves known and visible and people really got into it. But to see where we've come in such a short period of time. Two years on in 2017, seeing so many people, so many colourful floats and lots of different organisations represented. I'm just looking at just a [00:07:00] burst of colour here, balloons everywhere and glitter and rainbows and fairy wings. It's just we're taking over and we're going to actually shut down the streets. I can't wait. I'm so excited. So So where are you marching? What are the streets? So we're in Tennyson Street right now, and then we'll be leaving Tennyson going down Cambridge Street towards Courtney Place and then we'll be going all the way down Courtney Place to Taranaki Street. So you know, Courtney Place is one of our big, big [00:07:30] main streets in Wellington. So we're shutting down the traffic and we will be making our presence known and have so much fun. Then once we get to Taranaki, we'll go down towards the waterfront and sort of disembark somewhere on the waterfront so all of the vehicles and floats will leave at that point and the rest of us will walk into Waitangi Park and we will kick off out in the park for the day. So why is why are pride parades important? I just think we need our community. [00:08:00] There's so much to our community. We're not very visible. So I just I tell this story that I tried to get involved in the community just like four years ago in Wellington, and it took me months. It took me months to find a community and and it was a lot of digging online and it didn't feel like it was something that was easily accessible and visible. And once I got in, Oh man, I got in and you know, now it's hard not to see the community, especially today. But [00:08:30] but it's hard to reach out to people who want to join us and the rest of the city, our allies, to come and support us. And on top of that, there are still so many issues that we need to push forward for our community. I mean, there's shocking statistics for our young people. We still have really high suicide rates for our young trans gay queer youth. There's some you know difficult [00:09:00] truths about our community still, and so it's not just a big celebration, it's also Hey, we're still here and we need to make sure that we get what we need for our community and make sure that we keep people safe and that people can be proud to be who they are. And we can also do that by being fabulous and showing off all our amazing creativity and our amazing spirit. And I think that's what today is about. I'm Jan Logie. I'm a Green Party MP, and we are currently, [00:09:30] um, in Tennyson Street and Wellington, with a whole bunch of gorgeous looking queers getting ready for the Pride parade. Now, this is the first time in a few years that the Pride parades actually, um, gone on Wellington streets. It's been going around the waterfront for a couple of years. What is the significance of like going through city streets? I think it's really it's claiming our space, and there is something really poignant about it for me. I remember being on the last devotion parade through the streets and gathering, and it feels [00:10:00] like the town is yours. Not that you're kind of relegated to, you know, uh, a space on the edge that actually, you know, we are part of this town in the heart of the town. So what was that last parade like going through the city? Oh, see, I was a young thing at that time, and it was so fun. It was really That's my memory of it. I dressed as a, um, as a black theory, and, um and it was just like it really [00:10:30] was a total celebration. And we were all spending the day being like Happy Devotion Day. And it was, you know, like, that's such a gorgeous spirit to bring to the city. Yeah, OK, so we're inside out, and we've got a bunch of young people, and we're about to march in the parade. We are dressing in vers vests, uh, for no reason other than that's all decorations we could get. And we're just gonna hold up our signs and walk down the street and [00:11:00] hold up our banner and be young people in the parade. Can you describe what? What? You've what you've brought along. OK, so I've got a bunch of glitter hats and we've got these diamonds that we hope to coordinate. Everyone hold them up so that they end up in the shape of a heart. Um, but I'm not managing that because that sounds too hard. And this right here is our cow that we're gonna push down the street and know it. So [00:11:30] why is it important for young people to be marching in pride? Kate, would you like to, um because it lets young people be seen in the queer community. And I think because we know that there are a lot of events and they're generally 18 plus and so it's really important for young queer youth to be able to be seen in the herd as well and enjoy this experience of who they are. Kate's just come on as co chairs to the inside out board, really lucky to have her thank you and inside out. What's that? Well, inside out is a national organisation that works with [00:12:00] queer youth and families in A. So we do we run national hoodies for it's like kind of a camp over three days for young people to connect with each other. We run day of Site, which is also a national um programme about um, bringing attention to bullying amongst queer youth. We make resources for families and schools. Our biggest aim is to create a world where it's safe for our young people to be who they are. I'm Stefan. [00:12:30] I just wanted to do something new and join in the parade, and I feel like it would help me meet people from different walks of life and different characters. Uh, yeah, I'm Jay, and I'm just It seems like fun. I want to give back to the community, and it's a chance to meet other people in the LGBT community. Hi, I'm, um I'm here to support diversity, and, you know, that comes with, um, people from all walks of life. So, [00:13:00] you know, it's important to just be a part of this and show that we support their their way of living. So why is a pride parade important? Or why is a Pride festival important? I feel like, um, some parts of the gay community and the concept of gayness isn't quite in the public's mind. We aren't quite fully aware or accepting of what goes on. So I just feel like a pride would bring [00:13:30] unity. Uh, yeah. Similar thoughts. I mean, there's often not a lot of visibility of the queer community and especially I'm trans in. The trans community in particular, doesn't have much visibility, doesn't have much acceptance. So it's a good chance to kind of get out there and really just have fun. All pride events are pro important. Uh, because pride is important, Um, because it's not really natural for an oppressed group to have pride. Um, so for us to get together and be like, [00:14:00] you know, we we're like in the minority. But we're alike, and we support each other and for the rest of the city to see that for us to be visible for like, a few hours is cool. Yeah, visibility is important. And, uh, I'm a teacher, so I've invited a lot of my families and students to come, So I want them to see, however, they identify in the future that this is just normal and you can just be yourself and have a good time, and [00:14:30] it doesn't matter what other people say. So I'm Lewis Wall, a very proud member of Parliament and a very proud member of our rainbow community, and we are in Wellington, uh, for the inaugural Pride Parade with a gazillion people around and just so much excitement, it's it's amazing to be here when we reflect on the last year, what have some of the biggest issues been for Rainbow people in New Zealand? Oh, look, I think the biggest issues now are around [00:15:00] the issues of full equality, and particularly for our trans and intersex community. I think that the complexity of gender identity is now becoming more and more and I'll say mainstream because people are starting to talk about these issues. I think historically, uh, we've hidden the fact that some of our Children are born into sex or that, uh, some of our Children have different, uh, gender identities to their biological identities, and parents haven't been able to articulate it. I don't think clinicians have been, uh, fully [00:15:30] able to articulate the needs of our communities. But the reality is we're a natural phenomenon, which means, uh, that we're not abnormal. We're actually normal parts of the human family, and I think the issue is about how we best deal, particularly with young people who becoming who they are as a challenge. But it's not a challenge when we all stand together and use our voice collectively to say we've got Children and particularly young people right around the country who need support. And so we have to [00:16:00] support our young people in that process. So what needs to change in the next year? Well, I think the biggest change has to be an investment, um, by our health system and getting the clinicians who are able to perform what seems to be the last part of that process. I think we've got psychologists. We've got endocrinologists so we can do the, um, diagnosis of gender dysphoria. Young people can be on a pathway to hormone therapy, but we haven't got the last bit of the process, right? That is we don't have a surgeon [00:16:30] who can perform surgeries in our own country. Um, I think that from my perspective, we are contributing to the youth suicide issue in our community, and I think we just have to just continue to speak out and highlight the need and actually force in the end, the government to treat us like equal citizens and to prioritise the health services that we require. So at present, we don't actually have a surgeon in New Zealand that that will do those surgeries. That's right. He retired four years ago and we haven't replaced him. [00:17:00] And he was only one person, and he did. He actually could do the top surgeries, but we've never had anybody who had the capacity to do the bottom surgery in transitioning particularly, uh, from female to male. Um, but we now know we we've got over 100 people on the waiting list, and I think it's absolutely unacceptable that people have to wait 32 years to have a surgery. Uh, that actually is crucial to them being able to live and function in in in our community. And, [00:17:30] uh, we've had some media just recently about people who have chosen to go overseas and the complications of those surgeries. So when they come, come back to New Zealand, where they aren't covered by AC C. So you know, these are these aren't complex issues. This is our responsibility. People shouldn't have to do this by themselves. Communities shouldn't have to do it by themselves. No one chooses. Uh, so I think go through a pretty painful process. Both psychologically, uh, and physically So we have to as [00:18:00] a as a country, be responsive to the needs of all of our community, which includes our LGBTI and our trans communities. I'm with the dance float Dance. Wellington. Yeah. Hi. I'm Deborah Stewart, and I'm with the dance. Um, float as well. Thanks. Hi. I'm Mary North and I hang around with and Deborah. And what is the dance float? The dance float is, uh, to talk about and to show that the the Wellingtons, same sex, [00:18:30] um, dance group, which is a a open to everyone. That's for, um, same sex and friends. And that's, uh we have lessons every Sunday, and we do it by so everyone. It's open to everyone and everyone who come and learn to dance and have a lovely time. And you don't need a partner. You just come and have a great time. And how big is the group? Recently, we've been getting good numbers and we've got some new kids starting with us as well. And the numbers have been ranging [00:19:00] from 20 to 30 people every Sunday. So today is, uh, pride. And we've got a pride parade coming up. What are you going to be doing in the parade. We're going to be dancing the clap clap dance But there will be twirling and there will be flourishes. Did you guess? And we change partners. Yes, you do. Why do you think? Uh, something like a pride parade is important. I think it's it's as we've seen [00:19:30] with with Trump is that people think, Well, you don't need to have a pride parade. You don't need to have any of that sort of thing because everyone just accepts it now. But, um, as you've seen with the swing to the right wing right around the world, actually, we still have to be out there and and fight for for gay rights and for women's rights. And for all those rights that everyone thought we'd already got. Yeah, I, I just like Debra. I think you know, we definitely need to be still visible still out there educating people, still [00:20:00] making people aware of, um, people passing away with, um AIDS issues and also, um, LGBTI issues as well that are still being ignored or the stigma that goes with it still, And our friends and families are going to come out and cheer us and, um, I guess that doesn't happen often in a girl's life that we get applauded for being gay because there is stigma. There is, um we are the other. [00:20:30] We are marginalised, but not today. And, um, all our friends and families and coworkers are coming out to cheer us and join in. And one of the big differences in today's parade in Wellington is that it's actually going through the streets of Wellington, whereas for the last couple of years it's just been on the waterfront. So that's That's quite a big change, isn't it? Isn't it lovely? Isn't it lovely? Yeah. When was the last time it was on the streets? Do you know, I do remember. I do remember I was walking with the lesbian mothers because there were some cute girls there and [00:21:00] it would have been about 15 years ago. And I remember walking from Civic Square down Willis Street, and, um, it was quite business like, and that we all walked along. It has. It's This year's parade is going to be far more, um, filled with flourishes because we've got the drag queens organising it so 15 years ago, so that that would have been early two thousands. What? What was the response like from the crowds? Um, it was pretty good. But when we went past the [00:21:30] bars, it wasn't so good. And we did get pelted with eggs on occasion from the Christians, got together with their little packets of eggs and threw eggs at us mothers and Children. So I'm looking forward to the fabulousness of this parade and be able to do it again without getting attacked. Um, I'm James Bennett. I'm from Rainbow Pages. Um, we're one of the major sponsors of the Wellington Pride Festival. So we're really proud to to be the first time ever, Um, sponsoring this and being part of a parade that hasn't been around [00:22:00] for 27 years. And so what's your role to do? My role today is to drive the front vehicle, Um, my Rainbow Mobile, which you'll probably see, Um, and on the back of my vehicle, I've got, um, his lordship, the mayor and, um MP. Grant Robinson. Um, and then we have, um, some other dignitaries in the the cars behind us. So, um, we're we're we're leading the parade right through the and then, um escorting the the VIP S through to out the park, which is going [00:22:30] to be a great day. Is this the first parade parade you've been in? Um, this is the first Wellington Pride parade I've been in. No, I've been in many a pride parade. I'm getting a bit older. Um, I used to be one of the organisers of Mardi Gras in Sydney, so I've walked in seven of those, um, I've done two Auckland Pride parades, and, um, this is the first Wellington. So what is the Mardi Gras like in Sydney? It's a beast. Um, I think Mardi Gras, because [00:23:00] it's been growing now for 37 years. Um, it's so well established. And it is a beacon for the Southern Hemisphere to support, um, the Rainbow Communities. And it's just turned into something that's quite special. And, um, I must admit I'm a Kiwi. I moved to Sydney for five years to to work for Mardi Gras. Um, my first Mardi Gras parade. You just feel oh, it's it's It's an amazing feeling because you've got 300,000 people on the side of the road. [00:23:30] Uh, usually around about 10,000 people in the parade. Um, doesn't matter where you are in the parade you just have there. You're just oozing everybody's energy, and it's it's quite astounding. This last Auckland pride parade. Um, I was in, um, and actually walked it instead of driving it. Um, and it was a whole different feeling doing it in your own country. Um, so proud of those guys and so proud of Wellington, um, pride for for getting this one back up [00:24:00] and running, and we hope to develop it in years. And I'm certainly going to put my support and my business support behind the Wellington Pride Festival in the coming years to develop it into an event that's recognised internationally. And I think we can get there. We're going to go from a small parade, maybe today with 20 odd floats to hopefully next year, increasing that by another 20 making it bigger, brighter, more beautiful and and more fabulous. I'm Grant Robinson. I'm the MP for Wellington Central, [00:24:30] and we are standing in Tennyson Street in Wellington ready to go in the first Pride parade in 20 plus years. There's a bit of debate going on because I remember a devotion parade but, um, yeah, amazing to see this happening and such a good thing. How was that devotion? Uh, parade received all those years ago. Yeah, I My memories are really quite vague for me. It was a really big deal because I'd only just moved to Wellington and only just come out, and it was sort of, you know, quite a a different experience. Um, I don't entirely remember how it was received. Actually, I remember [00:25:00] the party a lot better, actually, which was great fun down on the waterfront. Uh, but yeah, no. Look, I think a lot's changed, obviously in in that time, and that was 10 years on from homosexual law reform or thereabouts, and so was still quite new and fresh. And and there was still a lot of of what had happened during, um, law reform was lingering over us. I look around the crowd today and there's this huge group of young people who are growing up in a world that the one that we hoped we would create, you know, of actually feeling [00:25:30] comfortable in who they are. And this is a great way for them to get on the streets of Wellington and express that. So what are some of the challenges still facing Rainbow people in New Zealand? Oh, you know, there's there's the straight out legislative stuff around the trans community and gender identity generally, and that is becoming more and more prominent an issue. And obviously I think we're going to have to resolve that at a legislative level. Then there really is what, um, Charles shall always used to call the dignity agenda, which is how do we translate having made these legislative advances [00:26:00] into all people of all backgrounds, living lives of dignity. And you know that that requires attitudinal change, and that's hard. And so that's going to take a lot more time, I think, particularly in that context of schools and knowing that schools are still not all safe environments for our young queer community. That's got to be one of the biggest changes we make. There's a lot of work to do with the education review office with the curriculum, with schools themselves and making sure we create really safe spaces for young people. And so that's probably [00:26:30] for me sits at the top of the list. Health services, access for trans community to health services. And, um, we've got the current situation with NZAF really struggling to keep its funding going. Um, you know, they've got this fantastic ending HIV programme, but it's not gonna work unless they've got support from Central government for funding. Hello, I'm Thomas. I am with the Iman HIV Foundation float. Um, we all do the condom wrapping the condoms that they give out of the bars. So we got [00:27:00] it involved through that. But also, it's just I don't know, It just seemed like a really fun time. I swapped shifts at the last minute because I realised how fun it was gonna be. And it is a good cause. Me, Uh, I I'm supporting my friends. Uh, I'm a straight man, but that's OK. Uh, breeder. Filthy breeders? No, but, uh, as as Thomas and Shorter, one of my closest friends, You know, I support I support their lifestyle. I support their choices, provided that they're safe about it, which they are, which otherwise, they wouldn't be if they're not safe. So, you know, love is love. We're all here for everyone. So that's me. [00:27:30] Um, I'm Sean. Uh, same as Thomas. I'm just here to support the IN and any HIV float. Um, when I moved down to Wellington last year, um, the condom wrapping, condom wrapping and condom packing and the YC group kinda provided a space for me to kind of like grow, um, grow within the community and actually make other gay friends and such, um and yeah, it's just been great ever since. Like, I met Tom, who's one of my best mates through everything. And [00:28:00] yeah, it's just been an awesome time ever since. And that's why I'm here today. Basically, I'm Kelly Anna. I'm just here to support my friends and look pretty basically my job, But I'm with ending. I'm with ending HIV as well, and we go every Wednesday to pack, um, condoms at the centre. So if you're in Wellington and you want to do it, then come along from 5 to 7, that's a plug. It's a lot like being in a knitting club like you just gas bag while you're doing something simple with your hands. It's really nice chips. You might not get any because I eat them [00:28:30] all, but there are chips, but yeah, it's it's it's a fun time. So we're just bringing that fun time to the parade today, so hopefully that comes through. So what are the biggest issues with HIV education in in this country today? Stigma is definitely one of the biggest issues. Um, for those who are both at risk of contracting and also those who have contracted, um, general education in schools for, um, non heterosexual purposes is also [00:29:00] a big issue coming from, uh, rural high school and such. We didn't really get any education at all. Outside of you know, where a condom. If you're doing it with someone else, um, left it at that. And then yeah, also, just a lot of misinformation about treatment as prevention programmes, Uh, tas and, um, pre exposure prophylaxis. Um, prep The thing with the education with sex ed in schools is it could be incredibly hit and miss. [00:29:30] Some schools are brilliant and some schools are terrible. And when I was at school, our sex said for same sex people amounted to gay people exist, but I have a friend of mine who was absolutely terrified of being gay because he came away thinking legitimately thinking that if you have gay sex, you will have you will get AIDS because HIV is spontaneously created [00:30:00] when you have gay sex, which is absurd. But it terrified him for ages. And, um, you know, we do. We need something more comprehensive, and we need everyone to do it curriculum type thing, as opposed to just, uh, you know, no guidelines skills. Do what you want to the level that you want, as we currently have now. So, ladies and gentlemen, what we're gonna do now is we're gonna have the cutting [00:30:30] of the ribbon, which is quite significant for our LGBT T I community. Shut up, Ladies and gentlemen, can we just have a moment as Kevin is going to give us our blessing that will protect us while we're walking in the parade? Uh uh. [00:31:00] [00:31:30] You killed him. So now we're gonna have the mayor who's going to speak very loudly so that you can all hear. Thank you. Just thank you, Amanda. And it's great to see you here today. Now, I I've worn my best blank. Amanda said wear you blank. I don't normally wear these to bed. At least not on a Saturday morning. Monday to Friday? Yes, I do. Uh, but I think [00:32:00] it's about time we upgraded the robes. I think it's about time. Here in Wellington. We reflected a mode. Modern Wellington added a bit more colour and perhaps even a rainbow. So give us a year or two and we'll see at the next parade. We'll make sure we've got some rainbow robes to match. The bling and the flair. I'm looking forward. Uh, bride, uh, week and the festival and the parade today to absolutely taking over Wellington. I want to hear the shit you shouting out loud. I want to see some colour, [00:32:30] and I wanna see some flair. We've lived in Wellington for many decades around gay pride around homosexual law reform around marriage, equality. And I wanna thank the leaders Here are representatives of Parliament as well for the contribution you made. Thank you. Yeah, we're going to start cutting the ribbons now, So if you wanna take a photo of this very symbolic today, Wellington, Justin Lester cuts a red ribbon [00:33:00] symbolising sex and blood. No, it doesn't. Blood is in family. Then we have Suzanne Tamaki, Get off your bike club. There she is. Suzanne Tay from the Wellington City Council, who are who is our cultural events organiser. She'll cut the purple one, which means spirituality, ladies and gentlemen. So what? The wall is next cutting the blue ribbon [00:33:30] which represents royalty. Ladies and gentlemen, we heard from the Green Party. Janie, she's cutting the green ribbon, which is growth. We have Nick Grunge. Who is going to cut the orange turban representing. Then we have Dana Demilo [00:34:00] cutting the yellow ribbon, which is remembrance. Last but not least, we have Ginny Ginny. Where are my love, Ginny? Cutting the peak ribbon, which symbolises us as a community. We can now officially say, Let's start pride Wellington 2017 [00:34:30] at the moment where you can see the drag queens on the plate with the beautiful colours of, uh, balloons and rainbow bags. And next up, we've got, um, HIV ending HIV is a new campaign for the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, uh, moving towards the idea that we actually be able to have zero discrimination and zero, infections, uh, in 2025. So that's pretty cool. He's got some gorgeous men on the back of the truck there. [00:35:00] Look at that. He's got his shirt off. Ah, So dreamy Take her home. And then we've also got a whole bunch of the volunteers from the New Zealand AIDS Foundation that pack all the condoms. So it's really cool to see them out. Really nice to see some great support from the community. And we've also got a whole lot of people from Wellington coming out to see the parade. It's fantastic. Then we've got the PPT. A. Uh, they're one of the unions here for [00:35:30] teachers in the PS A. So the union members right here It's fantastic. They were all out and they're having a great laugh supporting with the CT US. And of course, we've got the DS W swing group. Now they are great. You can see them naked in the pool sometime. Very nice. I see. It's an amazing sea of colour. An amazing sea of rainbows. This is incredible. This is incredible. That Wellington has got back to this. I remember [00:36:00] the devotion parade. It was it was amazing. And it is just heartening to see the mayor, you know, on a float leading out our community. Oh, this is unreal. Absolutely unreal. Yeah, very emotional. Um wow. Yeah. Wow! This is absolutely astounding because my mind goes back 30 years and this would not have happened. And we [00:36:30] have so many different groups, so much joy, so many people standing up and say, Well, I am who I am and it's good to be who I am It's wonderful. Yeah, I was on one of the first we had and we did have tomatoes and eggs chucked on us. But this is just so wonderful. And I mean, look at that crowd. I mean, there's so many happy people and it's just wonderful visibility and a good on Wellington. Great. [00:37:00] And just look at the amount of flags and colour That is wonderful. Oh, we've got a faith. Communities united in love build bridges, not walls. And all these signs wonderful. We we had the mayor and, uh, the local parliamentary member in the same car in the parade. It was wonderful. What support? [00:37:30] We've just had a sort of a Christian group which are gay. We've had the trans people, which are also fabulous. Now we've got a whole lot of people which oh, there's a lesbian social group. They're actually quite we're actually banging the drums. Behind them are the police. Where are you from, My love? Oh, pride dot com How fabulous. But I miss cola and I've just come down to support Wellington pride because the girls always come up and support us. So I'm down here supporting them as well. Are you in a bad one? [00:38:00] Are you having a good one? Are you having a drink? I will. In a minute. I think it all. So So what? Do what do we have here? OK, so here we have. I'm gonna have a look because I haven't got my glasses on, but they look like a gay drum banking association. So So you're saying everything is kind of soft focus at the moment? Yeah, it is actually because I can't really see because I haven't got my granny glasses on. It's not a good look, actually, but I'm looking at the one behind, and it looks quite now if they turn that banner [00:38:30] around, you probably could see if you want to bend over into my my floral bouquet. Can you see what says lesbians bend a bit further? New Zealand Lesbian Group. Well, social group, That's well, everyone needs one of those and we've got the New Zealand police coming up behind. And there is Oh, my gosh! Here's my dra Oh, no! Those are the Those are dogs! OK, sorry, My bad. Let's give them away. Can you do a Yhoo? [00:39:00] A gay Yhoo? Can you do a gay Yoho? And our last lot? We're coming to the end of it now. Our last group looks like they're gay. The cheerleading association. I could be wrong or a NZ. Who do you bank with? You don't bank. I'm like it. Sort of like a tap and go machine myself. I never decline. So a NZ are the last group And then we've just got a whole lot of bunch of people down here who I think are just [00:39:30] out to support Fabulous, fabulous people. Fabulous! It's been a fabulous day. Happy pride. Wellington, everyone. How? Ok, they're actually letting off. What? I like to look at it as it's a buka spray. So that's why now I'm not gonna get this out of the synthetic. We thank you. Have a fabulous day. Thank you, babe. Happy pride [00:40:00] it, Amanda, How did it go? This is amazing, I. I sort of kind of expected or hoped for about 30. Well, no say 20 floats and 300 people today. As you can see, we've had about 29 floats and about 1400 people. So it's amazing. This has been absolutely incredible, I think, because it's being held in Wellington after 27 years, an amazing accomplishment for the Wellington City Council. Also for our gay [00:40:30] community. I think this is a an A an eclectic array of spirit Mana and Tonga that we've done today. I'm really, really happy. Really happy. Thanks, Annie.

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TITLE: Human Rights with Richard Tankersley
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VOICES: Richard Tankersley
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1940s; 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; Amy Adams; Anglicanism; Anti Springbok tour protest (1981); Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Bill of Rights Act (1990); Bishop Jean Baptiste Pompallier; Canada; Cashel Mall (Christchurch); Catholicism; Celebrants Association of New Zealand (CANZ); China; Christchurch; Civil Union Act (2004); Committee on the Rights of the Child (CRC); Convention against Torture and Other Cruel; Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment; Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (1979); Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (UNCERD); Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities (CRPD); Convention on the Rights of the Child (1990); Crown Law Office; Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples (2007); District Health Board (DHB); Family court; Fiji; Fran Wilde; Gender Identity Bill (2004); Geneva; Health And Disability Commissioner; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Human Rights Act (1993); Human Rights Commission; India; Indonesia; International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (1976); International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (1976); Intersex Trust Aotearoa New Zealand (ITANZ); Israel; Jackie Blue; Japan; Jeff Montgomery; Jem Traylen; Judith Collins; Julie Watson; Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (KSA); Korea; Louisa Wall; Manatū Hauora Ministry of Health; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Member of Parliament; Māori; Ngāi Tahu; Palestine; Parliament buildings; Pasifika; People Against Prisons Aotearoa (formerly known as No Pride In Prisons); Philippines; Presbyterian; Rainbow Wellington; Richard Tankersley; SOGII Universal Periodic Review (UPR) Coalition; Salvation Army; Samoa; Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity (SOGI); Silver Rainbow; Singapore; Sri Lanka; St Andrew's on the Terrace; State of Qatar; Statistics New Zealand; Switzerland; The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan; Tiriti o Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi; To Be Who I Am (2008); United Kingdom; United Nations; United States of America; Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948); Universal Periodic Review (UPR); Wellington; Wellington Pride Festival (2017); World War 2; accomodation; activism; aged care; ageing; anti discrimination; birth certificate; bullying; bullying prevention; celebrant; census; church; cis; civil rights; civil society; civil unions; civil war; convictions; corrective surgery; coup; covenant; crime; criminalisation; cultural consultant; declaration; decriminalisation; democratic rights; disability; disability rights; discrimination; dispute resolution; driver licence; education; elders; employment; equality; freedom; funeral; gay; gay panic defence; gender; gender diverse; gender expression; gender identity; gender reassignment surgery; government; health; health care; health rights; health system; helmet; homophobia; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; human rights; identity; identity documents; indigenous peoples; intersex; justice; lesbian; march; marginalisation; marginalised communities; marriage; marriage certificate; marriage equality; marriage records; normalisation surgery; pardon; passport; pay equity; peace; petition; petition on historic convictions; prevention; prison; privilege; queer; rally; sexual orientation; sport; statistics; surgery; takatāpui; transgender; treaty; universal human rights; violence prevention; wedding; youth
DATE: 16 March 2017
YEAR: 2017
LOCATION: St Andrew's on the Terrace, 30 The Terrace, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Killed everybody, as Jim said And thank you, Jim, for the invitation and thank you to Saint Andrews for for hosting this event. Um, my name is Richard Tankersley. I've been a commissioner at the New Zealand Human Rights Commission since September 2008, which is rather a long time given that I was appointed on a five year warrant and I'm still sitting there pending, um, replacement decisions made by the minister. So I'm very happy to still be here and still be in a position to have these conversations with communities, Among [00:00:30] other things. Um, I'm based in Christchurch. My appointment is at 0. 3 So I do other things with my life. Um, I'm a celebrant. I do weddings and funerals. I was a lay minister in the Anglican church many years ago. I don't hold that office anymore, but I still carry on some of the some of the work. Um, that, uh, entailed in that, particularly in taking funerals. Um, and while I never took weddings while I was a lay minister, I certainly do now, [00:01:00] um, and some of my works in the rainbow community and some of it's not some of my works in the Maori community, and some of it's not I'm descent and pretty active in, um, Maori things down in the south. Um, and, uh, also, I'm a consultant, a cultural consultant, and offer training and organisational development work. Um, particularly aimed at the health sector, but I'm not limited to that. [00:01:30] So, um, if we flick on, um, to the next slide, there it is. Richard Tankersley, Human Rights Commission and former criminal. Um, And I'm saying that because, of course, before 1986 if I chose to have sex, uh, according to my orientation, then I was committing an act. Uh, that was against the Crimes Act at the time, and I was being a criminal. I was never caught and convicted as a criminal. Um, but I certainly carried out what would have been then deemed criminal behaviour. [00:02:00] And I say these things in the light of the Minister's Minister of Justice uh, Amy Adams decision to engage, uh, in in a a consideration of a a process to quash historic convictions. Um, that were made under that legislation that was repealed in 19. Uh, was counteracted in 1986. Um, with certain limits on and and the the discussion will be not tonight's discussion. But the minister's discussion and the legislation [00:02:30] that empowers it will will, um, be working out with the limits and boundaries around those quashing will be. So where are we gonna go? Um, this is essentially what I'd like to cover. Where do our human rights come from? Some milestones of human rights, uh, relating to sexual orientation, gender identity and intersex. Now that acronym. It's a jargon thing. What did soggy mean? So they say sexual orientation, [00:03:00] gender identity, and intersect. So this is a generic term that covers, um, for us particularly, uh, the human rights of people with, um, minority sexual orientation and gender identity and gender expression. So that's where that acronym comes from. SOGI I So, um uh, a little bit about the Human Rights Commission. And if you want to access our complaints service, we'll let you know how to do that. Um, we [00:03:30] want to talk about making changes to the world to better realise human rights. And then I've got some thoughts about, um how we go about that. So where do our human rights come from? It's all very well to talk about human rights, but where do they come from and how do we define them? So in the in the throes of the end of the the middle and the end of the Second World War is the United Nations Charter was [00:04:00] being drafted. They also drafted, uh, a a declaration, a universal declaration of human rights, And that was put before the General Assembly on the 10th of December in 1948. And it was passed by the General Assembly. And it's, uh, got numerous articles, and you can find it on the UN website. You can find it in lots of places, and it essentially is an aspirational document [00:04:30] that outlines what are the rights of human people in the light and and and the is at the start. It talks about, um, you know, in generic general terms, the experiences that we've just had, uh, in the earlier part of the 20th century in terms of going to war against each other and committing atrocities. But the queer is, uh, that I, um, want to reflect on, uh in this is the recognition of the inherent dignity [00:05:00] and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world. That is one of the assumptions that underpins the declaration of human rights is actually that the equity and human rights are the foundations of freedom, justice and peace in the world. So the declaration [00:05:30] goes on to articulate a whole range of rights. And again, I I'm not going to have time in a one hour session to go through what those are in 1967. So now another generation on from that the dialogue had continued and before the General Assembly. Then they gave voice to two covenants, and they call these the two major covenants of human rights. One covers civil and political [00:06:00] rights and the IC CPR, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the other covers economic, cultural and social rights. The International Covenant on Economic, Culture and Social Rights put before the General Assembly on the 16th of December in 1966 from those two covenants, then the human rights of a whole range of groups of people, [00:06:30] Um, people whose rights have been, were seen as vulnerable and needed more articulate expression have been, um, covered off and, uh, described in a range of other human rights instruments that are called treaties. So you've got a declaration, an aspirational document. Covenants, which lots of countries signed that said, we choose to do these things because we believe in the declaration [00:07:00] and then as subsets of those covenants that these treaties are like, how do we then meet the obligations that we signed up in the covenant? So the UN charters, treaties and declarations, Um, and very briefly, the, uh, convention to eliminate all forms of racial discrimination in, uh, 1965 the CONVEN Convention to eliminate all forms of discrimination against women in 1979. [00:07:30] And, um, also in 1979 the UN Convention on the Rights of the child 1979. Those were the the first of Well, they're not that not the only things that the UN dealt with in those times, but they are three big conventions or treaties that was that were put before the General Assembly. In those times we move on to the next slide, we've got some more, um, two more documents, two more treaties and a declaration. [00:08:00] The convention against Torture, Um, which is actually the Convention Against Torture and other cruel inhumane, which I've spelled incorrectly on the slide. But never mind or degrading treatment or punishment. Inhuman. But it's inhumane, I think so. The convention against torture. So that covers the rights of people in detention. Those sort of things. Uh, and then much more recently in 2006, the convention to, uh, 2007. But, um, [00:08:30] yeah, 67. The Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. Also in 2007, um, was the United Nations declaration again, not a treaty and aspirational document on the rights of indigenous peoples. But that has shaped, uh, the international dialogue on what happens for, um, indigenous peoples. For the last 10 years, New Zealand was reasonably slow to, um, endorse that [00:09:00] New Zealand, Australia, US and Canada. Um, actually, you know, pop pop populations with large numbers of indigenous peoples were the ones that were reasonably tardy. Everybody has now signed up to it, including us, Um, or at least removed the reservations from that. What we do if we move on to the next slide. What happens when a country. So you you put this, uh, treaty before the United Nations and then an individual country either signs it or they don't. And so when New [00:09:30] Zealand signs a a treaty at the United Nations, then we agree to do a number of things. But the two major things that we agree to is that we agree to make happen the progressive realisation of the rights that are referred to in that treaty in our own domestic situation. OK, so we don't say we magically click our heels together and those rights are automatically in place because we have to put them through the [00:10:00] mechanisms of our own, um, our own law, our leg, our legislative process. We need to bring them into our codes. What we undertake is that we undertake to progressively realise those rights in our domestic situation, and we agree to know to to to no backsliding, no retrogressive moves, no falling back. Once you've taken a progressive realisation, step in the realisation of human rights, then the UN expects [00:10:30] that we don't go back. OK, so you have a change of government If you ratified some of these human rights, the the the convention would say No, do not go back on those things. You've made a positive step to acknowledge. To honour a treaty that you've signed. You can't go back. So when you've signed a UN instrument, then there's an accountability process. And, um, all of the instruments have got accountability processes, [00:11:00] and they've all got committees that then examine a country on its compliance with that particular treaty. So there's, um, the convention to, uh, eliminate racial discrimination. And of course, then there's the Committee on Ending Racial Discrimination. So, uh, likewise with, um, the, um, with the women's convention, like this committee on the on the status of women, there's all those things. And again, the, um, most recent [00:11:30] convention big convention was that on the rights of people with disabilities. And again, it's got its own committee. They all have. The two governments have also got committees. What they put in place, um, more, more recently is a a five year. It's now a five year cycle process for each country called the Universal Periodic Review. And that's where the country's whole entire human rights record is examined by the United Nations. And I think what we'll find is that there will be less and less reporting against [00:12:00] individual treaties and more and more reporting in the universal periodic review simply because the mechanisms of the UN have gotten very, very cluttered. Um, with the various treaties and the various reporting and it becomes, I suspect it's becoming unwieldy and unmanageable. And so, um, we, uh, we did U PR two years ago. So we've got another one coming up. Uh, it it seems to come around reasonably quickly. [00:12:30] So what happens? Let's take the U PR the universal periodic review as an example. So what is required then, is that we go to the Human Rights Council at Geneva. Um, and we appear before, um, a an examining committee, which is made up of delegates from a number of different states. Uh, that are, um, party to that to that treaty to that process. And those rotate around, uh, and so you go [00:13:00] to the Human Rights Council and you, um, make a presentation. So there's three fold. There's a threefold, um, effort to the presentation, the government, the Minister of Justice, and what causes a report to be made to that, uh, body, the Human Rights Commission as a national human rights institution, which is what we are, and we are accredited to the United Nations. As a national human rights institution, we make our own report independent [00:13:30] of the government and then civil society groups involved in that area of human rights or those areas of human rights, then have an opportunity to submit third party reports to that process. So you get a much It's not just from one direction. It's not just the government saying Oh yes, we're doing this. We're ticking all the boxes. We're doing very well, thank you very much. They might say that. But unless the NGO sector, the sectors that are involved organisations actually agree with that and [00:14:00] if the independent human rights body agrees with that, then that's fine. There are probably going to be divergent views. And so the the committee then sits and understands the breadth of views and then will come up with recommendations, feedback to the country on how to improve its human rights, its domestic human rights situation from the viewpoint of that UN body. So that's what happens. So here, So that's what I mean by international. [00:14:30] So, uh, on the slide sorry. I've got reporting to an examination by UN treaty bodies, um international mo monitoring processes, Um, the role of states, which is the role of the other states involved in that treaty, or in the the Universal Review. And they examine the role of, um, our own government to present, um, a report, our national human rights institution. In this case, we're called the Human Rights Commission, presenting our own report and then civil society [00:15:00] presenting the third rate of reports and I've got a hand up. So I've got a question with the U PR the last one that was held. I was somewhat involved, at least on the periphery of it. And the interesting thing was that the government called for confrontation. If you could call it that, um, with the civil society, which was pretty, um, controlled. Yes, it didn't really get a lot of [00:15:30] scope, but some of the civil society groups did put things in which the government completely ignored the final report. When it came back from, um, the UN, the, um, two affairs held, uh, sort of a This is what happened. And this is the result and stuff like that and What we discovered is that from the time after, uh, consultation [00:16:00] is called for, there is no scope for civil society to have any further input into what the government has decided to do. They say, Oh, we've been here, We've talked to them, We've taken the stuff on board and this is what our plan of attack is. But there's no civil society input into that. I think that that process is more fluid now than I think it's growing. I think it is as I understand it, It's changing now for all that. You're speaking [00:16:30] to somebody who hasn't gone to the UN and reported to a treaty body. I've been I've been to the Asia Pacific Forum of National Human Rights Institutions. But that was, uh, about our involvement in supporting other in a new national human rights institutions and our engagement there rather than specifically to a treaty. I'm one of the few commissioners that doesn't hasn't gone to do that. Um, certainly what we did have in the last U PR from a sexual orientation and gender identity and intersex point of view, was a coalition of [00:17:00] NGO S who did put a report into the, um, process. And, um, what we got out of it, um, was a bit interesting because it it the the report highlighted some very strongly some areas of human rights that needed work because of the quirks of the UN system. The the state parties that were examining us were quite quite a few of them were reasonably queasy about sexual orientation [00:17:30] and gender identity issues. And so we didn't get the recommendations back that we that those that our work deserved, um, or the work of the coalition deserved. And in fact, the commission didn't argue with the coalition either. Um, what we find that what we did get was a, um a statement from the minister saying Yes. I acknowledge that these areas need work and, yes, I will continue to work on these things [00:18:00] in conjunction with affected communities. Now, that was Minister Collins, and we're still holding the government to the minister's statement that we will, you know, we've taken that in good faith, and we'll continue to move forward on that basis. What I think you will find is that civil society will get more and more organised around the U PR as, um the cycle becomes apparent and they won't wait to be invited by the government to have input [00:18:30] into those things. I think you'll find that it will become a lot more proactive. That's as I read it. Now, again, I'm not the article. It's good news because the power of the first thing we other nation states could comment on your and that pressure from other states was quite important. I would have a much better chance. [00:19:00] I would. I would agree with you. And I think we certainly will have within sexual orientation, gender identity into sex. I think we will have a much stronger We'll be ready for it a lot, a lot earlier this time than than we might have been in the past in all the things you listed, where there was a human rights, you know, um, focus, like women and Children. You didn't actually [00:19:30] mention one around, because how do you actually get a review when it's not actually an agreed? So we don't have a specific treaty on sexual orientation and gender identity, and it's highly unlikely, given the makeup of the UN, that we're going to get one and we can't even get agreement on these things inside the Anglican Church, for example, with the plethora of people from of bishops from, um developing nations where you know [00:20:00] their theology gets in the way of their ability to include people. Now that be it. Now I say, This is somebody that's been involved in the Anglican Church, even though I was raised as a Catholic so you know. But II, I had a conversation earlier on, So I've got Presbyterians on the side of the family as well. So we're pretty. We're pretty Maori faith in my in my family. But certainly I don't think we're likely to be able to get AAA the promulgation of a treaty at the UN on sexual orientation. Gender identity. We have to go back to the declaration and we have to go to those two covenants [00:20:30] and those covenants. And the Declaration and those covenants set is the premise is that every person is born free and equal in dignity and rights. Full stop and the two covenants civil and political rights and, um, economic, cultural and social rights are promoted on that basis. And so what the treaties do is that they illuminate the covenants more. But just because we haven't managed [00:21:00] to get a treaty in place for a particular group of people doesn't mean to say that those human rights aren't seen as important in the UN framework by by the UN by people in the UN. It's about the nature of the, um the emphasis and the politics of state parties that are involved in any particular time. Do you think you will get any progress? Because as I understand it, even Human Rights Council had, um, States like Saudi Arabia on it, for God's sake. I mean, [00:21:30] one hope is that we we got those sorts of countries, and they also like to target the democratic countries and keep away from the absolute despotic Look, I, I think that the UN is a very, very large and very, very cumbersome beast, and I can't imagine it's going to get lots better in terms of its mechanisms. Um, I. I think it is what it is, and we work with what we can work with. But, uh, look, I agree with you, but, [00:22:00] uh uh, the other thing about countries that have a national human rights institution that doesn't mean to say that they're saying that their human rights record is perfect. We've got one. Australia's got one. Samoa has now got one. And that's the first one. That's eventuated in the Pacific since Fiji got deregistered after the coup. Um, but there's none in Singapore because Singapore doesn't need a human rights commission. Um, but there's one. There's one in [00:22:30] Indonesia and there's one in the Philippines. And there's one in India. No, there is one in Mongolia, but there isn't one in China. Japan is. I'm not sure about Japan. It's a little while since I was involved in the A PF meetings. But at that point, um uh, Palestine had just been admitted as an observer in its own right. The Palestinian Authority, even though they didn't have a state, Israel didn't have one. Um, [00:23:00] Qatar was on the way in. Jordan has one. So, you know, there's all the way from there, um, down, uh, Korea. I think I mentioned Sri Lanka has one, and I'm not sure what their status is because they were being pushed out to observe a status because the government was interfering with their independence because, uh, that's another. That's another story. Let's let me not get Thank you. Let me not go down that track. Otherwise I'll keep you here till 10 o'clock at night. Um, but, look, I, um I agree with [00:23:30] you around the limitations of the UN framework. Um, let me press on a little bit. So how do our rights fit in? And this is sort of answering your question that you had the Universal Declaration and the covenant. All the rights referred to and the other instruments apply to all people, including those with diverse sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression. Because all humans are born free and equal in dignity and rights [00:24:00] terms of the domestic law. So what What have we done about, um, progressing? Uh, the rights of, um, the Rainbow Communities in our law. So we go back to 1986 and I talked about myself as a former criminal because prior to the decriminalisation of homosexual activity, I was engaged in such naughty things. And so I was engaging in criminal activity before July 1986 because I'm old enough to have [00:24:30] done that. And, um so this bill came in and it was very much a very very big thing in Wellington, of course, because the MP for Wellington Central was the person whose name the bill was promoted and Fran Wild. Um, so it was introduced. It was introduced in two parts, and the two parts were one to decriminalise, um, same sex activity between, um, consenting adults. [00:25:00] Uh, and the second part was to include sexual orientation in the anti discrimination provisions of the Human Rights Act. So it was in two parts. It was very divisive. You will remember those of you who are Wellingtons. It was very divisive, particularly with the launching of a petition that was set up by a couple of MP S and then very quickly, um, connected by a couple of very conservative business people and then promulgated, particularly through, [00:25:30] um, the Salvation Army at that time who took up. That is a mission for themselves. Um, and there were street matches, lots of street matches. So you had this petition rally on the steps of Parliament. Many of the signatures, um, were subsequently disregarded by the processes of vetting that took place after that. Um, but the around it was amazing and outrageous and actually quite [00:26:00] scary from my point of view. Um um And then there was there were street marches all over the country and lots and lots of places. I was involved in the 1981 Springbok tour marches, I think 1986 85 86. Marches for homosexual law Reform was scarier from my point of view, because there weren't as many people marching in the streets. There weren't as many of us 1981. There were thousands, thousands, many thousands. I remember being part of a march [00:26:30] of about 15,000 people in Christchurch, or at least a rally of 15,000 people after four marches that converged on the square. We had nothing like that in Christchurch. But we marched anyway on a Friday night down the cash, some of us wearing, you know, skid helmets to stop concrete things hitting us. So it was a bit scary, really. And I think the insults were, um, probably the most outrageous things I've heard in my life. [00:27:00] The outcome of that was that the first part was passed on the ninth of July in 1986 and the second part was lost. That second part was the guarantee of human rights and discrimination, um, human rights protection under the Human Rights Act at that time, subsequent to that, in 1990 the government passed a Bill of Rights Act a charter of rights particularly [00:27:30] focused on, um um, mostly on civil and political rights. Um, not as entrenched legislation. It's a simple act of parliament, so it can be repealed at any time. I think that's a constitutional weakness in our in our country. But that's another discussion. Um, but non-discrimination in minority rights were included. Um, and so the Bill of Rights covers general areas of human rights, particularly life [00:28:00] and the security of the person. Democratic and civil rights, nondiscrimination and minority rights, uh, around search and arrest and detention around the right to, um, just criminal procedure and the right to justice in general. On the back of that, Then comes the Human Rights Act in, um 1993 [00:28:30] and in that revision of Human Rights Act were, uh, was included the rights, uh, for sexual orientation to be included as a, um, and UN and illegal grounds for discrimination, uh, under that act. So let me just tell you what those protections are So the Human Rights Act 1993 which has been [00:29:00] amended subsequently. But the anti discrimination provisions are pretty much the same. Protects people in this country from unlawful discrimination and harassment in a number of areas of life. Sex, gender. And I've You'll see I've put gender identity next to that, and I'm going to come back to that OK? Sex, gender, marital status, religious belief, ethical belief, colour, race, ethnic and national origins, age, disability, political opinion, employment status, family status. And we added [00:29:30] sexual orientation to that. Now the reason I put gender identity in red next to sex but gender is that the the gender identity is not specifically mentioned in the legislation. Any subsequent, uh, attempt to, um, amend the Human Rights Act to include gender identity hasn't gotten very far. And we have an opinion from the Crown Law Office in 2006. I think it was [00:30:00] IE, the office of the solicitor general that says We don't need to do this because transgender people are covered by the provisions of gender in the Human Rights Act. This hasn't ever been tested in a court by anybody taking a case for or against that provision. And, um, I think it would be better personally, Um, if that was considered [00:30:30] for amendment before somebody has to actually go to court to see if they've got rights or not. That's how I see it now. There are some different opinions, but that's how I see it now. The it's prohibited disc to discriminate on those grounds in the following areas of life, which is the next slide in the government or public sector. The government's got to behave itself, um, in employment and education and access to public places and vehicles and facilities. So you can't be kicked off the bus because [00:31:00] you look like a lesbian doesn't work. Um, you're gonna be in trouble if you do that. Provision of goods and services, provision of land, housing and accommodation, and industrial and professional associations and partnerships. There have been some other human rights changes subsequent to that civil unions 2004 end of the homosexual panic defence. In 2009, which wasn't legislation, it was just removed essentially [00:31:30] by again. The Crown Law Office basically said this is no longer an acceptable defence for violent assault or manslaughter. or murder. Oh, somebody made a pass at me. So I killed him. Yeah, that was, uh, the mitigation defence. Basically, the mitigation defence no longer sits as as a viable defence in New Zealand. And that really wasn't noted too well on the way past. But it's a significant piece of, um, significant improvement Marriage Equality [00:32:00] 2013 and subsequent to, um, the work, the work that was done by the Human Rights Commission and published in 2008, which was a an inquiry into the rights of transgender people. Um, there are a number of recommendations that came to that. It was called to be who I am. We still have that up on our website, and it's there as a reference. And one of those things was about gender identity, documentation and people being able to with some [00:32:30] ease without having to go through, you know, years of legal battles to change their gender on their official documents that started to happen isn't totally finished yet, But now you can get a passport with the gender of your choice. Or, in fact, with indeterminant gender gender marked by an X on your passport. Your driver's licence you can now have with your, um with your gender on it as you want it, rather than as somebody else has decided. Or as is on your best of it. If you want to change your birth certificate, you still got [00:33:00] to currently go through the family court process. So there's a bit of work that needs to be done there. I've got lots of stuff about the Human Rights Commission. Um, and given that we're running out of time, I might just skip through a few slides. But people can ask me questions if you want about, um, the nature of the commission. But if we Nick Nick forward to number 29 LGBT rights and Communities, [00:33:30] there we go. That's the one particularly I think we've made reference to all of those things apart from currently. We're we're engaged with the intersex trust of A in New Zealand, um, and, um, with, uh, a number of other people involved in a a round table process, Um, on, uh, what happens for Children who are born with, um, ambiguous genitalia? Um, [00:34:00] well, a whole range of what the clinicians will say are disorders. Um, in terms of uh, the physical, um, the physical sex characteristics, um, which is where the term intersex is being used by people who have experience of those conditions in their lives. So we have intersex people and clinicians and midwives and human rights people all around a round table [00:34:30] working on how do we change our practise around that? Because at the moment, parents can consent to Children having essentially compulsory, um, corrective surgery. And sometimes essentially, sometimes they get it wrong and the correction goes the wrong way. And then you have a child growing up with a AAA with a gender identity issue after they've had surgery. Um, and the Committee on the Rights of the child actually [00:35:00] sent a recommendation back, uh, recently saying, Actually, this isn't OK. International Best practise is that you don't perform that sort of surgery. You need to have a look at your stuff. We were already in the process of doing this, so we're coming towards the end of that project. But that's one of the things where the commission has been active in moving things along. So it's not just about making public statements. It's not just about Billboard. It's actually about getting people around the table and getting them to talk to each other from their different points of [00:35:30] view. And it's been an incredibly productive discussion so far. Um, and we're now working towards getting the Ministry of Health to, um, have some avenues for getting some quality feedback into their, um, regulatory processes around these things. Let's, um, flick ahead. Skip ahead. There is significant back up back one. So there are a significant number of human rights matters that are still to be addressed. [00:36:00] And this isn't just about being addressed by the Human Rights Commission. This is about These are some of the human rights issues that are outstanding for people in the rainbow spectrum. And that's the first thing the right for intersex young people do not have a non consented gen genital normalisation surgery. This is a work in process from my point of view. And this isn't something that we campaign on but actually pay equity for women. Doctor Jackie Blue, our EEO commissioner, has been talking lots about this in the in the last while. And, you [00:36:30] know, we're still we're in the two thousands, you know, we in in 2017 and the pay gap between men and women in this country is still huge. And so if you look at that on the rainbow spectrum, it's basically saying that all the women and the trans women are probably going to be at a disadvantage as a pattern, not individual ones necessarily. But that's I think that's a human rights issue within our spectrum and that what that means is [00:37:00] that within our commission and within other organisations, you can walk, work across work programmes and say actually what are the impacts on this for trans people? What are the impacts on this for lesbians? Prevention of violence and bullying, particularly our young people and particularly in education and in sports sectors needs to be. We need to continue looking at and there are things going on in that sector. If we move on one access to health care for trans people, particularly around gender reassignment. [00:37:30] We've got major issues in this country around gender reassignment. We don't have any capacity to do any gender reassignment because the funding is so poor sparse that we can't actually attract a surgeon to the country because the the ministry essentially is only funding three female male to female surgeries every two years and one female to male. And that's not enough surgery to keep a surgeon interested. If they're a specialist, [00:38:00] um, and so that's and and in fact there isn't. In fact, even though they've got that small capacity, there isn't currently a surgeon in the country. Those are some of the things that need to be advanced, continually advanced with the Ministry of Health Statistics New Zealand. And there again, there are conversations going on here. But if you don't count people, we don't count. If we don't know how many same sex couple households there are in the country, you can't count. You can't actually start making [00:38:30] policy decisions on an informed basis. And it's not just about households, but, uh, they are working on that. They have developed a standard for sexual orientation, gender identity. They haven't agreed to put that into a census yet, but that's still work in progress. And again, we've talked about gender identity documentation, um, based on self identity rather than based on a medical model really important stuff. Let's move on to another one. Some of my thoughts. [00:39:00] One of the problems, one of the challenges that I see is that in terms of this pathway of the realisation of human rights and I've got a big rant there that I'm just going to keep for another day, one of the challenges I see is that actually, the majority of the people in the Rainbow communities are reasonably comfortable in terms of the realisation of their human rights. Tick the box. OK, One of the challenges that I think has happened is that people [00:39:30] have taken a breather and said, OK, we've won this right here. This right here, this right here, this right here Oh, we're really tired. Let's stop. Let's have a cup of tea or a gin or a margarita and that's turned into a a night out or it turned into a week of gins and margaritas. In fact, it's been two or three years of gins and margaritas since marriage equality and the breadth of the community is not totally enrolled in what's going on for trans people. At the moment, the rights of [00:40:00] trans people in prisons has been quite high profile within the Rainbow Communities. But I haven't heard a chorus of approval or disapproval in the direction of the minister, not from the broad community. And what seems to be happening is that the the the vocal stuff is left to a bunch of now reasonably high profile, a small group of reasonably high profile trans activists that are highlighting those things. But there's no backing coming because people are a little bit burnt out. [00:40:30] Well, I think we need to un burn ourselves out, and I think we need to put our foot back on the gas again. That's how I see it. And but from a human rights commission point of view, unless the communities get in there and do stuff, it's actually not. Not as easy for us to AAA to be activist about these things because, of course the Human Rights Commission isn't the opposition. The opposition is the opposition. The government is the government. So we have to [00:41:00] be careful about how we articulate our concern about things and we do articulate and we do articulate independently of the government. We get ourselves somewhat unpopular with them from time to time, and if we didn't, I'd be very disappointed. So we need to be able to do that. Most outstanding human rights issues impact on trans and intersex people at the moment on and because of, um, [00:41:30] other demographics on Maori, Pacifica and other ethnic minorities and on young people, because these are the people that are vulnerable in our, uh and let me let me add to that list. I did this up pretty quickly and in fact, our ageing population. We're in danger of a whole chunk of our population being marginalised and isolated because they move out of the mainstream community and into aged care. And [00:42:00] there's a there's a project going on out of Auckland called Silver Rainbow, where this is being worked on. Um, Julie, who used to work for the commission, is, um, passionate about those things, and she's doing that. But there's very little movement at the moment on how people survive in their post 65 years with dignity and with the free exercise of the human rights. There's an article in the online last week that I read [00:42:30] that said, essentially, some ageing rainbow people are having to go back into the closet when they go into aged care. OK, well, that's not ok, man, that's not OK for me because I burnt down the closet door when I came out. There isn't a closet left, for better or for worse, and I think that's how it's going to be. So there's quite a bit of work to be done there. What I'm suggested then, in summary, is that people with more influence, um than than than others [00:43:00] have often had many of their rights realised and that we need to work together to finish the job. Um, so let's do it together. Rainbow is way stronger than monochrome. We need to build internal alliances between the colours of the rainbow. We need to collaborate, communicate and forge your head together and in my rent. Um, I spoke a little bit about the monochrome and the the colours of the rainbow. One of the things is that people have gotten very comfortable [00:43:30] and they basically go to a single colour of the rainbow, which is my flavour, and they sit there and that sits sort of relatively com comfortably in mainstream society. But we tend to leave people behind. If we do that, we tend to leave people behind these strong encouragement by the forces of society, mainstream society, whether it's intentional or not to not scare the horses. [00:44:00] Yes, you can do this. Yes, you can be, you know, a little bit rainbow around the edges, but don't go overboard. You know, just get on with your normal life and we'll be fine. Well, from my point of view, actually, we were born to scare the horses, and I'm not mean to horses, but, you know, it's it's It's a metaphor, isn't it? It's about let's not trigger the anxieties and the worries and the phobias and the misinformed concerns [00:44:30] of people that could do with a bit of learning could do with a bit of education. Could do with a bit of engagement with some fabulous people. Yeah, let's not. Let's not choose to not scare the horses. Let's say, actually, the horses are are are representing some things that really could be dismantled with some engagement. And that's part of what my rent was about. I'm happy to answer some questions if anyone's got questions, I've, um, taken up lots of your time, [00:45:00] but I think that's the last slide. Yes, please. Uh, last week's lecture mentioned that it was hard to get DH BS to take any notice of any operations that transgender people wish to have. Now, is there any you specifically target educating this kill bulls, too? Alleviate this. So [00:45:30] I might. Can I go back to you and ask about this specifically about DH BS? Or is the Ministry of Health? It's DB because it's not just what you call gender assignment surgeries. There's a whole range of surgeries. Some of them are performed at the DH B level, and some DH BS are actually quite good and others like, Oh, no, because a lot of these surgeries aren't aren't just like surgeries that you just do on trans people there. A lot of therapies are therapies that have been developed [00:46:00] for other health conditions. Might be, say, a cancer operation might be something that's relevant. And they say, Oh, no, we couldn't do that for a trans person. That's basically what you get from some DH PS, which would seem to me to be a prima facie discrimination. Exactly. Yeah, and, uh, from my point of view, I think that's unacceptable. That's how I see it just on the face of that, Um and and it would be very interesting if a complaint were made [00:46:30] to one of the jurisdictions about discrimination on that basis, and you'd have two pathways, one would be to the Human Rights Commission. Through that process, the other one might well be to the Health and Disability Commissioner's office because they have a director of proceedings as well. And I would encourage that avenue to be explored if it hasn't been explored already. Because, um, just if they're saying we're not going to perform that on a trans person, then there's [00:47:00] a case for that to be looked at by one of those jurisdictions, at least one of those jurisdictions. That's how I would see it. Does it really need an individual to bring forward a complaint? If you can show that they've got a policy not to provide the service that you're providing for other people? I I would want I would want a letter from the from the If it comes from the surgeon, I'd want a letter from that surgeon in writing or from the because it's already been documented. [00:47:30] There's been various studies in recent years where they've surveyed the H BS to say What services are you making available? And there's a very wide disparity. That's already I'd be I'd be having conversations with watchdogs about that. Simply. I simply would, Um and there's a range of possibilities, but and I again commissioners don't take complaints and don't act are actively [00:48:00] involved in complaint resolution. We have an independent. Thank you. We have an in a statutory officer within the organisation that runs the mediation service, and the commissioners are actually deliberately kept out of that. We don't interfere in that process in terms of what's taken up and what isn't. Actually, um, when you said, um, we need the broader community, you know, not just some Trans people. Trans activist was the phrase you used. [00:48:30] Um, So what does you know? ST Andrews is part of the broader community. A cohesive group on this. This. So what kind of things do we need to do? Do we need to write to DH B? You know what? What kind of stuff do you do? Well, uh, again, what can be done depends on where you are in the process. But I would say if there was a, um, a project that's being driven by trans people [00:49:00] within your within your reach. And you wanted to support. You'd have the conversation with those drivers and say, What's the best support that could be? And it might very well be, um, sending letters. It may very well be meeting and lobbying. It may very well be fundraising for particular, um, political activities. Um, it may be a whole range of possibilities. And again, um, have conversations, and the commission will do the things that it does [00:49:30] now. I didn't go through all the statutory functions and how we do stuff, but, you know, we're we're a small outfit that are, uh, are there for promotion and protection of human rights and promotion of harmonious relations between people in this country. Um and, um, dispute resolution is one of the the key things that we have, um, and our capacity to run huge campaigns at the moment is is not that large as you can imagine. Um, [00:50:00] but we can see having a facilitative role in things is one of the things that works particularly well for us. Like the work that's being done in the Intersect space at the moment, um, I can see that we might be able to develop a project, um, again in the trend space for, for with specific outcomes where we do some more work, Um, or at least some responsive work. If it's not called a project, I mean, it's [00:50:30] all naming, really. But the project would if there's a project held within the, um, community of trans people that you're connected with, then that's where your support would go particularly well. I would have thought and again have conversations. Hello again. Hello? Yes, it I get that. From what? You didn't say that there. Or maybe I gathered wrongly that there isn't a universal support between the LGBT [00:51:00] Q I community on trans gender that they're not gay people aren't necessarily or even lesbian people aren't necessarily concerned with. What I'm suggesting is that people have gotten a bit better weary and have slowed down. That what I've written any any, any sort of? No, I wouldn't call it a civil war, I think I. I think I think [00:51:30] I would characterise it as a little bit of battle weariness and a little bit of thank God we've achieved that. Let's have a let's sit back and enjoy ourselves a little bit. But one of the symptoms of that or one of the fallout from that is that I think people that are still battling get left behind a little bit. And I don't personally, I don't like that. And this is me personally, rather than me Human Rights Commission. And when it comes to that, this is me as part of the part part of the rainbow community. And I say these things and I say these things inside my own community and every every so [00:52:00] often somebody grumpy at me for that. And I don't mind really, because I think we do have to work together. Um, and I don't. The idea that we leave people behind doesn't sit comfortably with me. It just doesn't Would this be partly to do with the fact of of a number thing that you've got lots of lots of and the trend is actually quite a little pro. Is [00:52:30] that part of the problem? And the other one that could be That could be one of the reasons that are missing that also need some work done. Well, I think that the, um I mean, look, there are bands of even within those categories of trans people and intersex people there's a whole range of life experiences in there. What I've learned from and look, I, I didn't know much about, um, issues for intersex people until we got [00:53:00] involved. I mean, having had conversations with a small number of intersex people, but not to great detail. But now I understand there are sort of the doctors say there are 100 different medical conditions that occur very rarely in a in in a small number of people that, they would say, make up this bunch of people that self identify as as being intersex people. Intersex is a a social terminology. It's not a medical terminology, but it covers a whole range of medical conditions. Um, it's a social [00:53:30] construct, and, um, some of those people do not want to be associated to a large extent with the rainbow community. They don't want to be associated as being different or don't don't want to be differentiated on that basis. They're essentially getting on with their their lives, and they have a condition which they have to deal with the doctor for or that they had surgery for when they were a kid, and they've having to have that recorrect or something, but there's a whole range of things experiences there, you know, I wasn't aware of that [00:54:00] Mini rainbow within the Rainbow if you want. Until I was party to this project last year. Um, there's a range of life experiences within the communities that would be generically referred to as as Trans as well. And people have different stories, way different stories. And I've learned some of those along the way and the the work that I've been privileged to be part of with trans communities supporting the implementation of that review, which I wasn't on the commission when they did that review. But I [00:54:30] was there for some of the follow up and just listening to stories. People have got greatly divergent experiences, Um, and again there's, I think you're right. There's a small number of people, but for those small number of people, these human rights issues are very, very important, uh, incredibly important. And, um, from my point of view, uh, as a as a CIS gendered and cisgender means you're of [00:55:00] a gender that is congruent with, you know, the sex you were born as as opposed to transgender, which is the other way around a CIS gendered gay male, Um, who identifies as both gay and Takata because of the Maori side of me, which is really very important. You know, I'm pretty damned privileged because we've ticked most of the boxes that are important to me as an individual person, but as a social person, as a part of a community, we haven't finished. Uh and, um, you know, [00:55:30] I can sit in a in a position of privilege and then enjoy it and soak it up, or I can sit in a position of privilege and say, Well, let's not sit and soak it up because we haven't finished. That's I think, what I'm talking about. What about the churches, uh, claiming the right to discriminate? You like to comment about that? In what context? In same sex marriage, for instance, the church has forbidden [00:56:00] ministers to We traversed that, um, when the marriage equality legislation went through and the commission was, um, comfortable upholding both sets of rights at the same time. And I think we we thought that where we got to where, um uh, the provision that was inserted into the marriage act that said that ministers, religious and organisational ministers [00:56:30] essentially, uh, whose the where the tenets of their faith go against them, carrying out same sex marriages. Marriages essentially will not be required to solemnise those marriages by the state now that because there's two sets of rights here, the right that was expressed as marriage equality on the one hand and the right of freedom of religious expression on the other. And when you get competing rights, uh, the the [00:57:00] first response is to try and uphold both of those and to have some balance to those things. And, um, that's where we got to. That's what Lewis had put into the legislation in response to that sort of feedback, even though probably it wasn't required because, in fact, the act did say and still says that a celebrant the present presentation of a valid marriage licence authorised but doesn't authorises but does not compel the [00:57:30] celebrant to solemnise the marriage. Um, but the UN clarity was there. If if that minister then said and I'm doing it on the basis of the sexual orientation of the couple, then they might still fall afoul of the anti discrimination provisions of the Human Rights Act and so that section was put in to clarify that the the churches and their appointment basis is different. They are appointed by the Registrar General upon the recommendation of the church not appointed by the registrar [00:58:00] general as being, um an independent celebrant at the community in the community and meeting a particular, um, need in the in the general community. So I I'm comfortable with that. That's where we got to end. It allowed us to put marriage equality through, um with people being relatively OK. No, not everyone was ecstatic about it. So where is the basis for for for for religious freedom? In terms of New [00:58:30] Zealand, where does that those rights? They sit within the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and within the, um, within the covenants and and and it also sets, I think you'll also you'll also find if, um, that the the unwritten fourth article of the Treaty of Waitangi actually espoused religious freedom as, uh, one of the tenets of the treaty. And it was wasn't [00:59:00] written into the treaty. But it was added verbally upon the urging of Bishop Pompeo at the signing that said, essentially, the various faiths of, um the different churches and of Maori would be preserved. The rights to those things would be preserved in the treaty. Now it's interesting. I don't know this, but my guess because the Catholics had only been here for about two years, so I think they thought they were on the back foot at that point anyway. Um, but, um and they didn't want the Anglicans and the Methodists to have too much of [00:59:30] a head start, but I think it was an interesting thing. Um, and I have a wry smile when I think about it, but actually I think it was captured in the treaty as well. But there is a difference between institutional rights or institutional expressions of religion and and the individual, the beliefs or whatever rather than individual. Yes, yes, I. I see that difference certainly in terms of the marriage act, certainly in terms of the marriage act, if I go back to [01:00:00] that because that's where the question was originally couched. It is institutional celebrants that are excused in that act. And in fact, the ruling that we have from the Registrar General of Marriages is that independent celebrants, people that are appointed as state celebs, Non-religious celebrants, non organisational celebrants are not going to be permitted. Or excuse that in terms of that's what we have from Jeff Montgomery. And that's certainly a viewpoint [01:00:30] that I've held as a human rights commissioner, and I'm and I'm active in the in in the affairs of the celebrants Association, and I've been party to some of these dialogues. But Jeff certainly confirms the position that I had promoted already was an individual independent. Sullivant aren't going to be able to discriminate with impunity on that on those grounds, they can not, according to the RG, no got one more. And then I think we might need to go and have a cup of tea. How [01:01:00] we're doing it, too. Um, yeah, that to do with the Marriage Equality Act? Yes. Um, I'm a minister, and I conducted, um, same sex weddings. Uh, but I've done so as because I'm also I'm a civil celebrant, you know? So you're appointed as an appointed as an independent celebrant, and so really, you know, the the the state is now saying to me, You cannot refuse if I've ever wanted to [01:01:30] no, not refuse to conduct a same sex wedding. Um, but my church would be saying you must You must give you So you have both registrations. No, I've only got the one right now, but question really was, um Where or isn't actually specified in when you sign marriage [01:02:00] documents and all that, the actual gender of the people concerned. I don't I can't remember when they, um births, deaths and marriages have now changed their documentation process when they generate a copy of particulars of marriage. It used to be a form that was handwritten on or typed on. Now they generate a new one based on their interview with the couple. And so it will say Bride, bride, groom Or it might say, bride, bride. Or it might say, groom, groom or it might say, partner, partner. [01:02:30] And so the the celebrant will know that you're dealing with a bride and a bride because it will say so in those copy of the particulars. So and and it's all printed with with the names, the addresses, the parents, all that stuff is all printed out from the database that they've taken with their interview with the couple. Thank you.

IRN: 1103
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/galathea_into_the_bush.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004475
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089769
TITLE: Galathea: Into the Bush (2016)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ania Upstill; Hilary Penwarden
INTERVIEWER: Hilary Penwarden
TAGS: 2010s; Ania Upstill; Berkeley (California, USA); Berkeley High School (California, USA); Buddies in Bad Times Theatre (Canada); Canada; Donald Trump; Galathea: Into the Bush (play); Hilary Penwarden; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); InsideOUT Kōaro; John Lyly; Lambton Quay; Midland Park; Pop-up Globe (Auckland); Public Trust building; The Globe Theatre (London); Toronto; Trivia (Roman goddess); United Kingdom; United States of America; Urban Dream Brokerage; Venus (Roman goddess); Wellington; Wellington High School; William Shakespeare; academia; acting; alienation; artist; arts; asexual; bisexual; citizenship; comedy; diversity; early modern theatre; empathy; found space; gay; gender identity; gods; hate; heterosexual; homosexual; homosexual law reform; identity; identity politics; internet; lesbian; love; marriage equality; media; music; non-binary; parents; participatory theatre; politics; pronouns; queer; queer theatre; representation; sexuality; stereotypes; storytelling; study; television; theatre; tokenism; touch; trans; transgender; university; virginity; writing
DATE: 11 November 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Hilary Penwarden talks to Ania Upstill about producing queer theatre and the upcoming production Galathea: Into the Bush. The production runs from 23 November - 3 December 2016.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I suppose I find Theatre quite, um, artistically satisfying. I mean, I don't think it's my main form of artistic expression. And also, I think it can tell stories in a way that go maybe above and beyond what we normally see in text or in even just casual conversation. I think it's really a really powerful medium. Uh, especially now, in a time of TV and film so readily available. Uh, what [00:00:30] do you think that does for theatre Now, does that that it does that, um, inspire you to keep going with it even more when you know people can just so easily sit at home and download something on their laptop and not go out. And what does that do for you as a theatre maker when you're looking at your art, I think it challenges theatre to, uh, exploit or explore what makes theatre different. Which, I would say is the live performance aspect. Uh, you can't get [00:01:00] that level of human connection from sitting at home by yourself watching a screen. And even if you're sitting at home with other people, you know, enjoying a film or enjoying a show, uh, that art is not being made live in front of you. You actually, you're not watching the human error, and you're not really watching the skill that goes into it. Um, and the spontaneity that you can really get from theatre. So I guess I'm interested in theatre That, uh, really explores what being live means. [00:01:30] I'm not really interested in naturalistic theatre, especially naturalistic theatre in conventional theatre spaces, because it doesn't. Yeah, it doesn't do what I think Theatre does best, right? So with what Anya thinks Theatre does best in mind, can you tell us about your current project at the moment? Sure. Um, So, Galia Colin into the Bush is an adaptation of the early modern play [00:02:00] Galia by John Lily, who was an almost exact contemporary of Shakespeare. What inspired me to look at the play in the first place was that it has a homosexual love story. Um, the basic outline of the play is or I just say that the sort of context of the play is, uh it opens. Um, with the threat of a sea monster, there's a sea monster that's sent every five years to eat the most beautiful, beautiful [00:02:30] or actually the beautiful is the word used in the play The beautiful version. Um, and there's two fathers in the original and parents in our version, uh, who dress their beautiful daughters up as boys and send them into the forest where, of course, it being an early modern play. They meet and fall in love and at the end of the original. So they've dressed up their Children separately, each separately thinking that they have the beautiful daughter. So they want to protect her and send send them out as a forest dressed as boys, not knowing that the other other [00:03:00] parent is doing that as well. Yes, yeah, exactly. And the classic misunderstanding classic misunderstanding. Um, and they don't really like being dressed as boys, and they're a bit upset about the whole situation and they find gods in the forest, and it all becomes a bit mixed up. And there's a lot of fun to be had, uh, in the original, Um, the Venus comes in at the end as part of resolving the whole plot twists. I won't give it all away and [00:03:30] agrees that they can be in love but promises to turn one into a boy. So that they can be together, which is heterosexual. Yeah. So it's like I say, homosexual attraction, which is turned into a hes relationship, which is the resolution, the happy resolution I and this version, that doesn't happen. Uh, and it actually ends with a homosexual wedding, which, of course, is a great way of celebrating 30 years of homosexual law reform. Yeah, tell me more about, um, why you chose [00:04:00] Galia in terms of, uh, you know, being excited about 30 years of homosexual law reform and is is, um, and maybe your background as a theatre maker and working with early modern Elizabethan ticks. Sure. So I've done a lot of Shakespeare. I've directed a lot of Shakespeare. I've actually done a lot of Shakespeare. Uh, it's a particular I guess. Interesting skill set of mine. Uh, what I find intriguing about early Modern Theatre is is actually the the theatrical conventions [00:04:30] as well as the language. So, uh, what we see, actually well, in New Zealand now at the pop up globe, but or at Shakespeare Globe in London, which is, you know, the actors talk to the audience, they can see each other. It's a very live experience, and that's what attracts me to it. Um, so, yeah, I've done a lot of early modern Drama Gate as an early modern play in its original version, in terms of Why queering it and why a queer play as a queer [00:05:00] theatre maker, I find that there's so little representation. There's so Little Theatre where we see queer characters where we see any sort of queer love. Um, and I'm using the term queer to You're really as LGBT Q. You know, all the rainbow community, Uh, I use the term queer, but it sort of like the rainbow community. Um, and it's a real shame, especially because I know so many theatre makers who [00:05:30] are a part of the rainbow community. And I think it's really hard that we are expected to participate in theatre and never see ourselves represented and never be able to play characters that are actual representations of ourselves. I mean, of course, acting is about not being yourself, but it is hard that there's there aren't even those opportunities. So when I was looking at doing Galia, I wanted [00:06:00] it to showcase um, a number of, uh, gender identities and sexualities that aren't normally seen on stage. And when I was looking at first looking at doing the play, we had a few workshops with members of the queer community and a workshop with the youth from inside out about what they wanted to see on stage. Because I don't want to just be about me like we're not all just queer ladies. Um, so yeah, I mean, [00:06:30] then the main message was, we want to see more, more and more different things. Um, something I didn't anticipate. Asexuals. So there is an asexuals character in the play, and there's a character that uses that. They then pronouns Um, yeah. So it's been an interesting, interesting journey, like a learning experience as well, which is awesome. Um, you? Yeah, you bring up the term queer a lot. And I wondering what queer means to you. And perhaps what queer theatre means to you [00:07:00] as a queer as a self identified queer person? Sure. How do you use the term? Yeah, uh I mean, I use the term queer. I say I choose to use the term queer because I'm what some people would term bisexual. But I also don't believe that it's a binary and bisexual inherently implies that it's a binary. You can love men or women or both. Um, and obviously we know that there's not just men and women, so it, you know, to me, queer resonates [00:07:30] on a more profound level. And also, I think queer applies to gender as well. I don't believe that we're either male or female. So, you know, if you if you identify as queer, it means you can allow yourself more flexibility in your gender as well as your sexuality. So you're acknowledging, like a spectrum of gender, A spectrum of both, Um and I don't Yeah, I don't feel like a typical [00:08:00] woman all the time. So why should I have to just be like I'm just this, um that said I mean I. I don't identify as gender queer, I think in the way that some people do as and it's not a strong part of my identity. I more just deny it as a binary. Um, yeah. Did that answer your question? Yeah, it does. Thank you. Um, Queer Theatre. Is that why Queer Theatre? You're right. I think we need more theatre that that challenges the binary [00:08:30] and also, um, in often in theatre. When you have characters that are part of the sort of rainbow community, they're very, very token and stereotypical and I mean, that's problematic in a lot of ways. But also we don't often see we don't see a variety of those characters. You know, like we see we usually see one lesbian in a play and like they're defining characteristic, is that they're a lesbian. [00:09:00] We see one gay man, and they're defining characteristic is that they're a gay man, and it's like these people are just people. I I tried to career gate much more like broadly in terms of creating, I think, hopefully a world in the play that is queer, not just character by character and a world in which people can be on that spectrum and not be questioned on it. And it's not the thing that defines them. So it sounds like, um, Queer Theatre to you [00:09:30] comes with its own sort of political agenda, if you like or or at least philosophy is that, um in terms of, um, the way that you set up your rehearsals and the way that you work with people and work with ideas. Is that, um are you bringing in? You're actively bringing in this philosophy and and being mindful of of the the politics around queerness [00:10:00] is that particularly in this project? I there are All of the actors are in are just are queer or not of them identify as queer, But they're all part of the rainbow community. Um and that's a big part of this project for me. I don't I mean it. I mean, Queer Theatre is a really hard thing to nail down, right? Like I mean, you could arguably say that Queer Theatre is any theatre that has, uh, relationships [00:10:30] in it that are non non straight or, you know, that involve non cisgender people. You'd actually I mean, you'd know more about about Queer Theatre than I was. How do you define Queer Theatre? Having just done an honours degree in theatre focusing on New Zealand for theatre, the interviewee switches over to the interviewer. Um, yeah. No, uh, I think it is all the things that you said, particularly around celebrating difference and and rejecting boxes [00:11:00] and binaries because society is so good at telling us that we need to be the same and putting down people that are different. And so queerness and queer Theatre to me is theatre. That raises up those differences and celebrates them in a way that people can empathise with. So it's it's that balance of look, we are different. Let's celebrate difference. But let's also do [00:11:30] that in a way that doesn't alienate people. That doesn't, um, that that encourages and fosters understanding between different communities and different cultures. That's that's a big part of it for me. And, um, there's not really in New Zealand a history of, um, strong, uh, theatre companies that have that as a man manifesto. We definitely we've had clear queer playwrights, [00:12:00] Um, but in terms of, um, bodies of theatre makers that have come together over a long period of time to keep making queer work that challenges and fosters Queer Theatre, Uh, it's doesn't really exist in New Zealand at the moment, and the way that exists that it does exist in other countries, like, um particularly, um, America and the UK. But also Canada has buddies, buddies, and bad Times Theatre, which is, um, world renowned for alternative [00:12:30] Queer Theatre. Uh, the yeah, we seem to be a little bit behind, perhaps a little bit timid in sharing our queer stories in New Zealand, which and a small small population as well. So it's that definitely, um, your project is something that I want to get behind. And, uh, speaking of that, I had another question. Oh, yes. So with the politics of Queerness and and [00:13:00] that celebrating difference and and all that goes with that and this production of Gaia into the bush, do you think, um, the project will appeal to straight people? And do you think straight audiences will, um, get as much out of this as queer people Will? They might get more out of it. Um, no, I yes, I think so. The when it's a comedy who doesn't love a good bloody comedy? It's a comedy about mistaken [00:13:30] identities, which is, you know, great. I mean, it's about, you know, falling in love, which most many people have. That experience, I would say, and it's, uh although it is quite strong in its especially its visual representation of queerness, it isn't I don't think, uh, inaccessible. It doesn't expect that the audience [00:14:00] know anything about the rainbow community coming into it. I don't think there's anything in the play that is accessible sense, except perhaps the use of they. Them pronouns. But we've kind of subtly worked that in. So one of the one of the characters corrects another character on their not use of they them pronouns. So you know, we can all have great learning learning in the room. Um, I mean, I think I should say I think straight audiences will learn more, uh, rainbow [00:14:30] audiences will resonate. I think it'll be more a more powerful experience for them because again, I don't think that or because we're so we see ourselves, we're so deprived. Yes, yes. But it's interesting that you say that. What you what you think of his career Career Theatre is, um, linked to building empathy because I think that's what theatre, as opposed to film or TV does so well. And so I think it's actually very is very important that we get straight audiences [00:15:00] I shouldn't even say straight. I mean, who knows if they actually are straight? People who see themselves as straightness even exist. Well, uh, to, um to see the play. And, um, we've had a bit of a bit of an interesting time with publicity in terms of learning, in terms of learning that that, uh, the term queer doesn't doesn't, uh people don't know what the queer means, which I think is a good a good learning I and yeah, that [00:15:30] that if you emphasise the queerness of a production too much, that may actually alienate people, which is not something that I thought of, but I mean, I grew up in Berkeley, in California, which is, you know, one of the most liberal cities in the United States, if not the most liberal. And like we had a I had a we had a family friend growing up, who taught me at Element at primary school and who was openly lesbian. So I just don't have a a barrier to it that other people might. Your high school Berkeley high school. I just text you yesterday [00:16:00] asking you, Did you go to Berkeley High? And you said why? And I said because they're staging a massive walkout right now, um, and protested the election of Trump, which I was like, Yes, you are from a very liberal, very liberal community. Um oh, maybe quickly tell me a little bit about how you, uh, how long you've been in New Zealand and your background there? Because you may have noticed that you have an American accent. Do I still, um, uh I mean, [00:16:30] I've I've lived in New Zealand for the past five years, and I finished high school in New Zealand at Wellington High, Uh, before going to university in the States. So I've lived in New Zealand, I guess, for about nine years, but consistently for the past five. Right? So you can go for citizenship this year, can you? Yes, I can. Well, that's cool. Um, great. And, uh, and in terms of, um, welcoming and people for whom the rainbow Community might be a new [00:17:00] experience, that's sort of built into the play a little bit, isn't it? In the way that you've your vision of the production, we've added in a goddess, uh, called trivia. Who's a real Roman goddess, You know, it's a great name. Uh, who is sort of the keeper of the space? Uh, she was the Roman goddess of thresholds and barriers and boundary crossings. So it's it's quite appropriate. She also officiates the wedding at the end. Um, and yes, she [00:17:30] welcomes the entire audience into the space and, uh, kind of outlines a little bit of the rules, or at least the sort of, um, how the space operates the space. The venue is also, uh, a gonna be a community space during the day, Uh, the days that the production is on, so we'll have a couple activities for the for anyone? For the the public who want to come. And what is the venue? Uh, it's the Grand Hall at the Public Trust Building on Lambton Quay, which is the corner of [00:18:00] Stout Street in Lampton Key, which is quite a is, uh, brokered through urban dream brokerage who aim to fill empty sites with art. And they've done a great job finding us a fantastic venue. Oh, tell me. Tell me a little bit more about the building. Yes, it's a historic building that's been kind of, uh, rescued and renovated, the it used to house retail, and it'll probably house retail again, but we've kind of snuck in at a point where no one [00:18:30] has decided to use it for retail. It's still a little bit under. It's not under construction. because it's probably safe. But, um, they haven't quite, you know, painted everything. And so we can potentially paint and exciting things in space. And is that, um, that location is that, uh, fitting in with your vision for the production? That kind of Yeah, well, I wanted to do it outside of the theatre. I was always aimed to be, [00:19:00] uh, site influenced. And actually, it's probably more appropriate now that it's on Lambton Quay, because the play actually starts outside. It starts in Midland Park. And the first few scenes are out there because we kind of follow the, um the girls who are dressed as boys into the bush tide. And I really wanted that sense of transition from an outside world, which is a kind of more, more, uh, socially conservative version [00:19:30] of our world. So I kind of framed it as, like, kind of like like the 19 fifties in terms of, uh, gendered, um, gender requirements. So, the you know, the girls are you would have been, you know, very like very feminine. Expected to be very feminine. And this outside world, uh, and then they sort of come into this world where those rules just don't apply, which is where most of the play takes place. So it also again, it allows the audience to transition. So they're not just [00:20:00] they They'll just have to step into a very unfamiliar and potentially terrifying rainbow world where people can might be gay. And, um, is it helpful to you, um, not having a traditional theatre space in that sense and what you're trying to do? Definitely. I don't think we would get the same people coming to the show if it was a traditional theatre space. I don't think it has the, uh, elitist kind of connotations of theatre. [00:20:30] I think it allows people to experience it in a new way. You know, they don't just come into a theatre expecting to sit down and have the lights go down. And, you know, the players are in front of them, and then the lights to go down again and the play to end. It doesn't have that feel. It allows it to be more immersive and more experiential. Uh, so, uh, is this, uh, participatory theatre that we're talking about? Here it is. I would call it involved Theatre. Um, again, It's It's very uh, I've used very early [00:21:00] modern conventions in the sense that or embraced early modern conventions because it's an early modern play. Originally, uh, in terms of the actors, talk to the audience and there's no fourth wall. You know, they the actors, might come through the audience. We have set up a system whereby audience members can indicate whether or not they feel comfortable being touched, because that was actually something that came out of the workshops that we did as people were like, Well, I don't always want to be touched by random strangers. That is fair [00:21:30] enough. We will make it clear to the actors that they should not touch you if you do not want to be touched. So, yeah, I'd say participatory Kind of definitely. Uh, yeah involved, audience involved. And that sounds also live music. Just had to throw that in there. Yeah, everyone loves some live music like a gig, but not. Is there anything else about the play that you would like us to know? Yeah, I think [00:22:00] it's been really It's just been really great working on something that's so openly queer. You know, I think often we kind of like halfway go to the Queer Theatre by, like making a character queer or making a relationship gay. And it's like this has just been, like, all or nothing. You know, the the start of the play is great, but that's intentional to kind of highlight, like the limits of that world view. [00:22:30] Um, and it actually feels, uh, very important to be working on it now, given the recent election of Donald Trump as president, um, it's a chance, I think, to create something that, uh, goes against that rhetoric of hatred and isolation and, yeah, just a fear of otherness. And it's a comedy. [00:23:00] And with that, with that in mind is, are there plans for you to keep, um, making Queer Theatre in the future? I'm not sure. Yeah, yes. Uh, but I should actually ask you that question because you're the one who's been talking about Queer Theatre. But we may be over our interview time, so just leave that as a little little dangling. Um, question. Oh, thank you. Thank you.

IRN: 1102
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/tranzform_2nd_hand_clothing_sale_2016.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004474
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089768
TITLE: Tranzform - 2nd hand clothing sale (2016)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Taupuruariki Brightwell
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 17-19 Tory Street; 2010s; 2nd hand clothing; 2nd hand clothing trip; Aotearoa New Zealand; Ara Taiohi; Brooklynne Michelle; District Health Board (DHB); Evolve Wellington Youth Service; Gisborne; Ngati Toa; Ngati Tuwharetoa; Ngāpuhi; Ngāti Porou; Opportunity for Animals; Taupuruariki Brightwell; Tranzform (Wellington); Wellington; clothing; coming out; community; diversity; donation; facilitator; femme; fundraising; gender diverse; gender identity; health; health care; health system; judgement; masculine; mis-pronoun; pronouns; respect; safe space; safety; shopping; social; support; transition; volunteer; website
DATE: 22 October 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: 17-19 Tory Street, 17-19 Tory Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Ariki Brightwell talks about Tranzform's first 2nd hand clothing sale, which takes place on Sunday 23 October 2016 in Wellington. You can visit the Tranzform website here
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is a, uh I'm originally from Gisborne. Um, been living in Wellington for about 10 years now, Uh, I've loved the place and, um, yeah, I never, never got tired of it. It's a lovely community. So, um, where we are, we're on, um, 17 Tory street. So that's right in the heart of Wellington. And, um, 17 Tory Street is a public gallery, and, um, they lead their spaces to artists and, um, people who run certain communities. So it's Yeah, [00:00:30] it's all around. And today is a very special event. Can you tell me about that? So, um, what's happening today is that we are setting up for our, um first, um, transform second hand store sale organised by me and, uh, yeah, um, it's gonna right now, we've got some a lot of donations, a lot of volunteers, and, you know, it's It just shows the heart and the love from the Wellington community. What has transformed. So, um, transform is a, um it's a social and support group [00:01:00] for, um, transgender and gender diverse youth. So, um, essentially, um, because of the lack of information there is with the DH B and other um GPS and, um, practitioners. Um, people come to us, we all band together and share. Um, the knowledge we've learned and information that we've learned on how to deal with the system and other things people may have trouble with. So, yeah, we mainly assist with those things. And, um, we, uh we usually, um, have [00:01:30] our sessions at a world youth clinic. So where did transform come from? So transform is, um, pretty much from Wellington. It started in Wellington, Um, roughly almost 10 years ago, Um, by an individual. Um, her name is, uh, Brooklyn. Michelle, Um, a trans woman who came from the United States. And so, um, she's been living here pretty much around the same time. And so, um, she found that there was no nothing much around at the [00:02:00] time. So she founded the group, and it's been going ever since. You've got a really informative website with a lot of resources. Can you tell me about some of the things that you offer? Ah, yes. So, um, our website is pretty much like a collaboration, so we all get together and all the we we usually brainstorm ideas with the group and the facilitators. And so the information is, um, revolves around safety. Um, where's the best place to find where you need to go? Because everyone's journey is different. And so, essentially, [00:02:30] it's full of information. Say, um, which practitioners to go to which psychiatrist to go to and counsellors and so on and who not to go to in terms of, um, people's experience and what they came out of that it's also, you know, um, it also links to us as a group, and people want to get in touch with us, they can find us through the website, and, yeah, and, um, we can progress from there. One of the resources I've seen on the site is about, um, shopping experiences for clothing. Can you talk to me about some of the issues that that that people [00:03:00] face when they're shopping? Yes. So, um, we have run sessions where we talked about this topic, and, um, yeah, many do find it very difficult, um, to enter the stores and shop for clothing that that suits their identity. Um, we found that, you know, either the staff members, um, you know, are unaware, um, unaware about, um, gender identity and you know, and And what the pronouns are, Um, we also have stores where? Yeah, it can be quite awkward and and, [00:03:30] you know, and and and sometimes insulting. So, um, what we really do here is, like, we usually come up with information or advice or probably like, um, stores to go to, um and, you know, and usually the advice we would give is, like, if you do feel quite uncomfortable, you either, um, look us up and see which stores we recommend in the Wellington region. Or, um, it's best to take a French. And, um, I also, um, started doing like, field trips. Um, at the [00:04:00] time, Um, of course we got, um and we use some of that funding to do, um, second hand clothing trips. So that was one of our ways around it. So we we go as a group of people, um, you know, we're all comfortable with each other, and so we go to a store, and we, uh, we're all there for advice, and it's a lot more safer over the environment. So I think the the issue there is pretty much safety as well in the stores and feeling comfortable with how you're treated because a lot of times it can be very, [00:04:30] um, very rough. So what would your advice be to a shop owner in terms of how do you make people comfortable, And how do you make people safe? Um, I guess it comes down to good customer service. You know, um, treat. Treat them with respect. You know, don't be afraid to ask for their pronouns, you know, if you're unsure, because that's that's, um, something we always taught from the get go. You know, when someone asks, asks you, um for your pronoun if you're then she here, um, it's it's it's always good to ask, and it's [00:05:00] quite respectful. And it's to it's to avoid upsetting that individual. And, um, you know, do not don't judge the, um, an individual what they choose to wear, because that individual is trying to find what suits them, regardless of the type of clothing it is. Yeah, be open. So is this sale that you're setting up for tomorrow? Is this a response to the need for for people to find safe places to go and purchase clothing? Yeah, in a way, yes. Um, it's kind of like, um, two [00:05:30] birds with one stone. So yeah, in a way, it is, um, a setting up, like an environment where everyone's welcome to, you know, spend time and pick what they want, Um, and surrounded by people, you know, that will, um, that understand and are deeply respectful their decisions. And it is also, um, a fundraiser for the group to allow us to continue with these activities. And since this is the first one, I'm very excited how it's going to go tomorrow. And I do plan on doing one [00:06:00] next year as well. At some point, can you describe, um, the the the the the amount of clothing. I mean, you've got so much in the space at the moment. So, like, where did it all come from And and describe some of the clothing. Well, um, the types of clothing we have, we have, um, quite a broad range, all shapes and sizes and styles. And, um, you know, we we make we make the effort not to categorise clothing in respective genders, you know, like men and women. So we go by, um, Fein [00:06:30] and masculine and you know, so that's more based on the style of the clothing. Um and so, Yeah, everything really came from the Wellington community. So So were you expecting this amount of clothing? Uh, no, I wasn't. I was very surprised on the amount that kept coming in. It was like a whole torrent of clothing. And, um, we were meant to get a, um an entire, um, bundle of clothing from the opportunity store with the colour, But I had to cancel that. [00:07:00] And, um yeah, I. I sorted through, um, most of the bags myself during the months to come. Um, because all the other facilitators in the groups are quite busy doing their part in the group. So, yeah, this was my sole responsibility. And, um yeah. No, I just absolutely love it. How many items do you think there are? Hard to say. Hey, what do you guys reckon? Um, thousands. Yeah, hundreds, thousands. [00:07:30] Um, there's there's a lot to go around, and we got a lot of pants, a lot, a lot of pants. Yeah, and dresses and jerseys and jackets. Those are the the majority. So yeah. Um, yeah. So So can you talk to me a wee bit about um, the importance of safe spaces like like this, For instance. Um, the importance of a safe space is to be able to, you know, be in an environment where you're comfortable to be here, [00:08:00] Um, without the fear of being judged or any negative reaction which can happen in the public. Unfortunately, um, my I, I believe you know that we shouldn't be in a society where we, you know, have to develop the safe spaces, you know, to feel safe. But unfortunately, and you know how society thinks and how things go. Um, it's crucial that we set things up. Um, because it also gives the individual the time to, um recollect and and [00:08:30] think about where they at and also to, um, have conversations and ask questions that they could never do in public, either with their friends or families. And, um, and by doing it, it creates a great opportunity to learn more and and gain more confidence in oneself and give them the strength to take on the outside world when they're ready. And also, if anything happens, there's a, um, there's always that safe point they can return to, you know, for more advice and and help if they need to. So what's drawn you [00:09:00] into, um, setting up events like this and and being so active in the community? Well, for starters, I'm living in Wellington for almost 10 years. I, I absolutely love this place. Um, I love the community. And, um, I've been, um, volunteering, um, at a second hand store, um, opportunities for animals for two years now, Um, and I really fell in love with, you know, um, making my part in the community and helping out and raising funds for [00:09:30] a good cause and a a lovely organisation. So, yeah, that's, um that's what really inspired me to do this line of work as well. Um, and because I wanted to use the skills I learned from my volunteer work and apply it to, um, helping, you know, um, the group I I facilitate for and gather the funds so we can continue helping. So how long have you been involved with the transform? I've been involved with the transform for roughly three years now. [00:10:00] Yeah, and what drew you to the group? Well, that's that's a good question. Uh, so I was when What kind of drew me to the group is that I was told about it, um, during my early days of transitioning so because when when I first came out? Yeah. I, um luckily, I had some individuals that were in the LGBT community, which helped me. Um and then from there I was led to the group and then from the group. I've I've stuck with them ever since and and they've helped me tremendously [00:10:30] with my journey and to get me where I'm at. And that's why I became a facilitator and and the representative will transform later down the line because when I see, um, new people coming into the group that are going through the same issues uh, it's a very personal thing for me, and I understand deeply what they're going through, and so I just It's just my way of returning the favour. So the group's really helped me get through it. And so now I want to Yeah, help them back. So over the period you've worked with transform and the number of people [00:11:00] that you've you've, um, had in contact with Are the experiences similar over time, or is it harder now than it was three years ago. Is it easier now? Um, yeah, there are. There are similar experiences over time. Uh, but it always in the end, everyone's very different. Um, the journey is similar, but everyone's story is completely different. And the way they get there, um, is is completely different. Um, but what we can relate is what What we can relate [00:11:30] to is, like what it feels like, You know, um, what you what you're going through? And, um, just making that connection. And I think for me, I'm I'm in a position now where I am. Um I have the strength to, um, take all that on board and and help people out because, um, like I said, what the group did to me to get where I'm at, Yeah, has allowed me to do that. We We talked, um, earlier about some of the stores in Wellington. And I'm wondering, are there specific stores that you would like to kind of applaud in terms of their [00:12:00] their openness? Oh, absolutely. Um, opportunities for animals. Um, so I said, Yeah, I've been volunteering at them for a while now, and they are, uh, fantastic. I find them one of the the best second hand stores in Wellington. Um, because it's not only that they are placed in parts of Wellington with such a diverse, multicultural community. Um, you know, we're very friendly, and, you know, we don't really, um, stay inside the box. You know, we try things we laid back and, [00:12:30] you know, and we sell clothing at very affordable prices. So and And also, you know, unjudgmental group everyone's welcome to come in and participate and volunteer for us. Yeah. In this event, do you think this will be a regular thing? An annual event? Uh, yeah. Um, I plan. I plan to down the line. You know, um, depending on how, um, today's event goes, Yeah, um, there probably will be another, um, second hand trading event. Um, next [00:13:00] year at some point, Uh, when I get this time to organising it and probably during the height of the summer season will probably be a good idea. Yeah, but I also forgot to say as well, um, many of the resources, the hangers and the racks, and also, um, the assistance I've got to set this up. Um, did come from the, um, opportunities for animals as well, so I can't thank them enough. And one thing we haven't mentioned is actually, uh, the the opening hours for the the event tomorrow. When is that? Uh, So we are opening, um, Sunday, the 23rd, Um, [00:13:30] we're opening at nine in the morning and closing at five. And we have, um we have plenty of the sale and at very, very affordable prices, it's a steal.

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TITLE: Youth Voices (2016)
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VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Alan Turing; Aotearoa New Zealand; Deadpool; Pride; Pride parade; Sally Ride; Space; Troye Sivan; Tyler Oakley; Vivienne Westwood; Vogue (magazine); YouTubers; acceptance; asexual; backstory; birth name; bisexual; bisexual invisibility; bullying; checklist; church; clothing; colour; coming out; community; computers; depression; design; diverse sexuality; diversity group; family; fashion; fetishisation; fetishism; gatekeeping; gay; gender identity; gender neutral clothing; gender nonconforming; gender unbiased clothes; genderless clothing; hope; mainstream; media; mental health; mental illness; mirror; modeling; monogamy; music; omnisexual; pansexual; photography; piercing; polysexual; promiscuity; pronouns; queer; queer spectrum; schizophrenia; school; sex; sexual identity; sexuality; shame; slut; stereotypes; suicide; support; teacher; television; texture; tragic backstory; trans; unidentified voice(s); vicar; youth; youth group; youtube. com
DATE: 17 October 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: This podcast is brought to you by pride NZ dot com. Uh, we're from a high school in New Zealand. Uh, we meet once a week privately. Just because some people aren't out for a privacy thing, we're gonna talk about what it's like to live in a New Zealand high school being diverse. I'm sha. I'm Alex. I'm Xavier. I'm Kylie. So to start us off, Alex, what expires you and why? I mean, I mean, inspires not expires. Yeah, I'm expired. Um, [00:00:30] I'm expired by music, I suppose. Not for any particular reason other than it keeps me balanced in terms of, like, mood and stuff, being trans and depressed and stuff. It allows me to express myself without needing to use words. So, um, I guess that inspires me the most. Makes my life a bit easier. So you, um, personally, what inspire what inspires me [00:01:00] in life are historical people that have achieved great things while being queer, such as the most famous one being is Alan turning, who was known for pretty much almost shortening the war by a good few years, As well as proposing the first ideas, what would possibly become the basic ideas of artificial intelligence and computing, and I mean tragically, they ended up committing suicide. But, oh, well. And just people like that along with him, as well as people like Sally [00:01:30] Wright, who was not only the first female astronaut but also the first known queer astronaut as well. And it just it. So it gives me a certain hope, thinking that if people that have been queer can achieve so much, well, then there's no real limit to what people can achieve in the future. What about you, sharp? Oh, you guys are talking about all the serious stuff and I'm just sitting here like YouTubers like I don't know I. I guess I figured out my, uh, my own sexuality [00:02:00] from watching people like Tyler Oakley or choice of A and seeing how comfortable they were with themselves and realising that like I could be like if I was comfortable with myself, maybe I could actually get somewhere I don't know. But, um, yeah, I guess the community surrounding those guys was like one of the big things that inspires me. That's cute. That's how I figured myself out watching YouTube videos anyway. So YouTube videos are like life. They're very much [00:02:30] an upgoing media. What about you, Kylie? What inspires you and why? Well, we did. Fashion is my life. I found a lot of like inspiration throughout, like fashion and just exploring different mediums to do with, like textures and colours and like variations of garments. And I, like, literally feel like there's a lot of designers out there who are on the queer [00:03:00] Spectrum and even like a lot of like models are coming through as like expressing their sexuality and even on like the cover of Vogue. Recently, they've had their first like trans model on the cover of Vogue, which I think is like a great achievement. And, yeah, there's some really cool like gender nonconforming models on, like Super models and stuff at the moment that are real cute. And a lot of clothes are now coming through as gender lists. [00:03:30] And like a lot of the new sort of fall like this new season, there's been a lot of gist spectrums on like the runway, especially from like the Vin West, which has been quite fluid with her sexuality, like portraying through her garments, which I love and I walked in on my dad, like watching a video on Facebook. And it was about our new stores were, like coming up with, um, gender unbiased clothes. And I was real excited because I thought it was an ad for an actual store and I was so excited. [00:04:00] And then I realised it was just a little podcast thing. It was sad. Did you see the video of the kid where it was like this eight year old girl in, like, target or whatever? And they were like, Oh, what do you like about these clothes versus these clothes? And it was basically this kid slamming like, um, feminine clothing and how it was like, Oh, I'm supposed to be beautiful. And then all the boy's clothes were supposed to be like, Oh, I'm adventurous and I'm a daredevil [00:04:30] or whatever. Like, can't we be both a man? I wish I had thought about that when I was a kid. Like my childhood would have been so much better if I had actually thought about that kind of thing. I would have figured myself out earlier. Yeah, sure. What challenges have you faced as a queer young person? I don't know. I never really faced, like, big challenges like people slamming me because I had a weird sexuality. I faced more the stereotype of people thinking that I'd had a bad life because I had [00:05:00] a diverse sexuality. So it's not so much the actual repercussions of themselves as the repercussions of those repercussions. It was, yeah, so, like, I don't know. I've never really liked the stereotype of everyone who's not straight, having some terrible back story with, like, horrible things happening to them and terrible bullying. But I had bullying anyway, but that was completely unrelated. But like, yeah, so I guess it'd be nice if people started, like treating us [00:05:30] more like we're normal people because we are, We're not. We're not all we don't all have crazy mental illnesses and terrible backstories. And like shitty lives, some of us are actually have pretty great lives, to be honest, like I'm in a real good space right now. So the biggest problem is people not understanding that I'm in a good space. I think the tragic backstory thing, though, is pretty old fashioned because, like with being queer and gay and stuff it's really come into, I don't wanna say mainstream [00:06:00] media, but it's become I don't want to say normal either. But yeah, people expressing their queer identity has become so much more normal that the tragic backstory thing has become more of a stereotype than an actual reality. And it becomes so much more like heard of throughout the media because it's more like accepted nowadays. Yeah, when, like 10 years ago, people who were queered most likely had a tragic back story because it wasn't accepted. [00:06:30] And it's also in the vein of wanting to treat like a person, not an endangered species. So what about you, Kylie? What challenges have you faced as a queer person? Um, as a queer person, I think a lot of like the troubles would be to do with probably being accepted, although along a lot like the broader spectrum has generally been like 95% of the time. But like even at my job, [00:07:00] there's still people that, like throw a sly comments sometimes. And, you know, that's just part like, you gotta accept that there is always gonna be people who's not gonna be like accepting of that and also with like family coming to terms with the like. I just accepted that. It's gonna take them a while to, like, come to terms like when I did come out. So, like, I've never really faced challenges, I wouldn't really say I've been bullied. I've been [00:07:30] pretty glad that I've been able to, like, handle myself throughout my high school years surrounding my sexuality. But yeah, I think acceptance like it's in a good space at the moment, but it has a long way to go going back to hell. I didn't experience those things when I came out to my parents, but most kids got like, Oh, we'll help you through this. I got a me too, from my dad. I said, I'm bisexual and he's like me, too. And I was like, OK, [00:08:00] so I never had those problems. I had a lot. I was surrounded by people who understood, I guess. And so they just Yeah, they just kept on going, which was cool. What about you, Alex? Um, what challenges have you faced being a queer young person? What? How much time do we have? Um, I guess being altered to my parents by my principal was probably the biggest one. I um came out to one of my teachers because [00:08:30] I felt safe enough in order to do so. But I felt like the school was trying to save themselves before they were trying to put and trying to put my safety at risk whilst telling my parents when I knew they wouldn't accept me. So all the while I have come out to my parents. They don't understand and they don't accept. So they've denied it. And it's like I'm going to have to come out again, Uh, because being a Trans person with my family is not exactly the easiest thing My parents [00:09:00] don't think it exists, especially my dad. He thinks that everything is black and white and that there's either male or female and is someone who falls more on the masculine side, but definitely in the middle. Um, it's been really tough for myself, especially trying to figure my sexuality out as well, because I mean I call myself gay because I'm into guys more than girls. But I mean, really asexuality comes [00:09:30] into it, too, because I don't really like to think about that sort of stuff like the sexual side of things, because it just makes me uncomfortable. You'd rather just discover yourself first. Like, would you rather just, like, focus on who you are rather than having to, like, focus on who you'd want to be with? Um, kind of. I mean, I know I like guys, but I think it's more of a I'm uncomfortable with my body because it's not how I see myself. So I don't really want people looking [00:10:00] at me or like trying to be sexual with someone because it just makes me uncomfortable. So I guess I find it harder than the other people here just because gender identities a lot harder to come to terms with rather than sexuality, I guess. Yeah, yeah, because, like sexuality, at least you feel like you're in your own body. Yeah, well, when I look in the mirror, it's kind of like, Oh, well, it's like a painful reminder. Yeah, [00:10:30] and I feel really disconnected, like I know it's me. But like, I look in the mirror and I don't recognise myself. I look at old photos and it's like, Oh, that's me. But it's like I don't remember. It's almost like there's someone else's memories, which is a bit sad, but, you know, I know what you mean. What about you and Xavier? Um, personally, to my knowledge or [00:11:00] I, I don't remember it. But as far as I know, I haven't actually directly experienced a heck of a lot of sort of struggle or challenges. For the most part, it's been Oh, yeah, I'm by. So what? Big whoop. Um but I think from the idea of the community is that while I don't face it, one thing that I have known that is a big problem throughout much of the queer community and that I know is faced by by people or as many others is, [00:11:30] um, gatekeeping from within the community itself with I know with by people and play many of the other similar sexualities where they go If you're if you simply don't look queer enough like you're too gay to be straight and you're too straight to be gay exactly. You're ostracised by both sides of the community and it's often very frustrating and and coupled with that, there's also the problem of the whole B and visibility as well, because when you're [00:12:00] not being gate kept, you're often also just ignored and the spotlight is very much shoved away from you, and even some people just flat out deny that you exist. Funny thing is that there is the main letter in the LGBT movement, but yeah, um and also at the same time, there's also the problem throughout it with the fetishization of by people as well as other similar sexualities of Oh, you must sleep with anyone and everyone [00:12:30] when in fact no, that's just wrong. That's wrong. Yeah, like I feel like a lot of people see like, yeah, sorry. The bisexual people, as like sluts promise you down to, like, straight to like, Oh, like they like both sexualities. They must just, like, be like, Oh, who am I going to sleep with tonight and then just go for anyone? Sort of a sort of going for anyone with a pulse. I feel like that's how people see a lot [00:13:00] of poly sexual people in general. So that's like poly sexual like ranging from pan to homosexual to bisexual all of the like people who like both genders in general, like, um, I don't know, I feel like, but we're not sluts. We're just people like because I I gotta explain to me as a checklist, like for people who you want to date, There's always a checklist of things you want from them. And for a lot of people, gender is the very first thing you think of. Like, Do I want a guy or a girl? For a lot of, um, Polys people? It's [00:13:30] that isn't on the checklist. There's no gender like we don't care what gender it is, what they are looking for a personality, not a gender, and, like fair enough if you want a specific gender. But I personal like we personally, I know a lot of poly sexual people who just don't care. Like like we don't care. I get along with you really well. I like wanting to be attracted to a person rather than a set of genitals. Well, no, it's it's That's kind of like putting it down to people who want a specific gender. But I [00:14:00] guess the best way to compare it to people who want a specific gender would be like, You don't if you don't want someone who's really short, I guess like like if you don't or if you don't care what height someone is or if you don't care what, uh, eye colour they have. I guess it's more close enough to that. It's kind of like, Oh, I'm monogamous just like you except my pool of applicants is slightly bigger. I feel like outside of gender, I'm a lot more picky than some people, but I'm [00:14:30] really picky outside of gender. So it's not that the poll is bigger. It's just that our checklist is different. Yeah, it's kind of like that with sort of being queer in general. It's just it's not that we're we are different or whatever. It's just our checklist is different compared to yours or whatever, which I think is a really good way to put it that way. To put it. It's like the difference between people who like Macs and people who like PC. Your checklist for what you want on a computer is different to their checklist. It's not like you're [00:15:00] two completely different people. Yeah, two completely different species. Maybe that's how some people look at it. I don't know. Do you guys want to talk about coming out or is that a bit? We totally could. That could be could be quite a good topic. OK? Me, Kylie, you go. So, um, I would say to most part, I was, like, pressured by my friends to do it. They're like, you got to just get it over and done with sort of thing. I was like, Oh, OK, [00:15:30] we've known you for years. Yeah, but somehow my parents did not see that, um, which I don't understand that they're just so deeply in denial. So I got asked to partake in a like, video recorded interview for television, and it was really fun. We just got asked some questions. We got filmed. It was a really good time. Um, but it was also, like, very open. We discussed a lot of [00:16:00] things, you know, like a lot of personal things. We discussed our home life and everything, blah, blah, blah. I signed the contract and it got aired, and my parents were gonna obviously be watching it. I knew that they already watched this show, so I was kind of like crap, like I've done it now like it's happening. So I had to basically tell them beforehand because I feel like they would have been quite offended. The fact that I'd rather [00:16:30] the whole country know before I personally tell them. So I had to, like, tell them basically I was, like, time pressured to tell them before this aired, and we did the interview on like, I think it was a Thursday or Friday and the show is being aired on the Monday night And I was like, OEMG, um so I basically went home the night of the interview. I told my mum upstairs, blah, blah, blah. There were some tears, and I was advised by my mother not to tell my [00:17:00] father as she knew he was gonna react badly. But I did it anyway. And yeah, things kind of did, like, not go too well. I ended up leaving. I wasn't at home for about three weeks, blah, blah, blah, just to give them time to cool down. Then I came back, and I kind of things just, like, went back to normal, I guess, Um, and now I guess he's like, on the mend to being a bit more accepting of me. And like I recently [00:17:30] got a piercing, which was kind of like a big step towards, like, sort of my sexual identity sort of embracing it, I guess, Um, not that only, like gay people get feelings, but a few, um and yeah, so I guess it just is very different for other people. But I guess if I hadn't have done that interview, I wouldn't have been time pressured. And even still to this day, I might not have done it. So [00:18:00] yeah. What about you? How did you come out? What was it like? So I was I was another person that did the interview with Kylie here. And unlike, unlike him, I didn't actually tell my parents before it aired. Stupidly, the only person that knew was my mother, who actually had to sign the permission slip. And things were interesting to say the least. Um instead of my instead of my father watching the interview and asking me about it, [00:18:30] He didn't watch it. My grandparents watched it. They told him he complained to them. He complained to the school. He complained to my mother before finally saying that he was disappointed in me for not telling him and proceeded to try and turn it into a sob story about how I shouldn't have gone on national television before him. Um, but yeah, fun times. Um, as as for him finally accepting it. Um, it was simply a matter of that. It wasn't that big a deal, in my opinion. And coming out doesn't have to be [00:19:00] this huge show of display with tears and hugs and presents and all cake and shit. Yeah, fair enough. But sometimes it's just simply, well, you never you never asked. So I never told. And it's It's a It's a piece of your personality that there is no one defining moment of I must now suddenly tell everyone. But But, yeah, it is, it isn't. It isn't always a massive thing [00:19:30] that you have to make a huge show about. Sometimes you don't even have to tell anyone. You can just keep it to yourself or tell a slick member of friends. Ultimately, it's your identity, and it's your choice to come out how you want or where you want. You never come out once you come out, like to everyone and like everyone individually and like it's kind of the same with, like mental issues as well. I have to tell everyone that I'm schizophrenic, and every time it's weirder than the last, like I haven't told these guys and they [00:20:00] just learned that so fun times. But if you come out to like everyone individually, it's not like you come out once and then it's over with like, Oh, yeah, it keeps on going and going Everyone like I I'm personally omni sexual and everyone's like What does that mean? And you have to do like I generally define it as Deadpool, except rather than having Deadpool's different perception of genders, I know I have a normal perception of genders. I just don't care, and people didn't really understand [00:20:30] that. But I have the amount of times I've said that is getting into the way too high numbers now. So yeah, um, but the first time I came out, it was to I think it was to my boyfriend who's still my boyfriend to this day because he came out as by a couple of years before we started dating. So the first time I came out was to him cos I like, I knew that he'd already been through all this and that he knew, know what was best to do, and he was like, Oh, that's all [00:21:00] good and he's like, Oh, yeah, So I literally just He was talking about how he first he told his mum, and then he told some of his friends and like what sort of support they gave him and, yeah, it was pretty good. And things sort of went smoothly from there. I've never really had an adverse reaction except for one person. And that was just funny. Like, that was just really funny. So I've never really had. Like, from my perspective, [00:21:30] I've never had a bad reaction. So yeah, my coming out has been pretty good. Yeah, and similar to what you said is that, um, come coming out is simply just telling another piece of your personality. I mean, it's like saying that you have brown here, or I mean, it wasn't already apparently obvious, but yeah, it's just another. It's just another aspect of your personality. And what about you, Alex? Um, what is your tail? This is gonna take us another half an hour. [00:22:00] I came out in waves. Um, the first person who probably noticed rather than I told was Xavier because I started posting about it online. But the first person that I really told I first said that I was questioning my gender and that was to my two best friends. And they were like, Oh, cool, what pronouns do you want me to use? And that was probably the best way they could [00:22:30] have reacted because it allowed me to decide more than anything else. I still wasn't quite sure of how I was identifying. So just saying Oh, for now, just use they Them pronouns made me feel like I had some control over my identity rather than I was being forced to conform to these pronouns that I had been assigned to me at birth. And as I started to realise who I was, this people who I came out to first stopped. They just didn't care, and they just [00:23:00] swapped pronouns real easily. But when I officially came out to one of my teachers, that got out of hand, out of hand and I was forced out to my parents by my principal and, well, I've already told that story so, but I guess at the moment it's OK. Um, I'm out at home, but I'm not out at the same [00:23:30] time. Like my parents know, I'm going through gender issues, but they don't really know that I've stopped going through the issues and I know who I am. Um, all of my friends take it, um, for what it is and accept my identity, and I'm out at work. So the only people who really call me by my birth name or whatever are my immediate family, which is understandable to a certain extent because they're still trying to [00:24:00] what they think has helped me through it all. But I don't know, coming out was all right. I mean, it wasn't, but it is now. I came. I came out to my dad in the middle of an L DB two parade. That's cute. Yeah, he was. So when I it's a bit of a long story, but from when I was 10, the vicar at our church left and because he had he had an affair with his wife. But what my parents never told me was he was having an affair [00:24:30] with a man. So we met him at the Pride parade. And I was like, Dad, what did you tell me about our vicar? And he was like, he left the church because he's gay. and I was like, that would have been so nice to know a couple of years ago, Um, you know, all the like, inspiring. But, um, so I was like, What if I said I was in the LGBT Q plus Spectrum and he was like, I would say, me too. And I was like, [00:25:00] OK? And so we came out to each other in the middle of an LGBT. Q plus pride parade. That's adorable. It it was It was great. It was like looking back on. It's like the cutest story I've got in my entire life. But yeah, any final thoughts? Um, that was a really nice counselling session. Thanks, guys. Yeah, therapy. Um, a lasting message that would be for those that are listening to the edited and [00:25:30] probably much more concise and accurate podcast is that ultimately, your identity is what you make of it. Coming out as your choice as well as, um, not everything is doom and gloom, but at the same time, not everything is happy. LGBT parades and gay vicar. Um uh, the best advice is to try and take it in stride and that there are always groups to help um, [00:26:00] pride and Z and the website. This is going to be posted on and most likely have a list of groups that you can contact if you need any help. And there is no shame in reaching out a hand for help. In other words, you you exactly.

IRN: 1095
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/homelessness.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004472
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089766
TITLE: Homelessness in 2016
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Kassie Hartendorp; Sandra Dickson
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Ara Taiohi; Evolve Wellington Youth Service; Green Party; Hohou Te Rongo Kahukura - Outing Violence; Homelessness Inquiry (2016); Human Rights Commission; Kabel Manga; Kapiti Youth Support; Kassie Hartendorp; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Māori; Neoliberalism; New Zealand Labour Party; Ngati Kahungunu ki Poneke Community Services; Ngāti Raukawa; PFLAG; Sandra Dickson; Street Outreach Team (Wellington); Te Mahana Homelessness Strategy; Te Paati Māori; To Be Who I Am (2008); University of Otago; Vibe (Lower and Upper Hutt); Wellington; Wellington Boys and Girls Institute (BGI); Whanganui; Youth One Stop Shops; Zeal (Wellington); access to health care; accomodation; activism; addiction; aged care; awhi; biphobia; bisexual; capitalism; colonisation; convictions; couchsurfing; disability; discrimination; disposable income; diversity education; emergency housing; employment; family of origin; family rejection; fightback. org. nz; free health care; funding; gender; gender diverse; health; health care; homelessness; hormone replacement therapy (HRT); hormone treatment; housing; housing crisis; housing market; inclusion; intimate partner violence; invisibility; invisiblising; kaupapa; logical family; marginalisation; marginalised communities; marriage equality; mental health; mentor; normalisation; normalisation of homelessness; parents; passing; peer support; poverty; priorities; racism; rejection; research; resource; rural; safe space; safety; same-sex partner violence; self determination; sexual violence; stigma; street homelessness; support; takatāpui; trans; transgender; transition; transphobia; under the cosh; urban; violence; visibility; volunteer; vulnerability; whānau; youth; youth work
DATE: 6 October 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um my name is Cassie. I, um, come from and I'm a youth worker with Evolve Wellington Youth Service. Um, and [00:00:30] I'm here just discussing homelessness. Um, and the I, I guess in the wake of, um being asked by my organisation that I'm a part of to make a submission for the cross party inquiry into the issue around homelessness. Um, and I'm Sandra Dixon, and I'm part of this conversation because the organisation I work for, um, which is a national youth development. Um, peak body has an interest [00:01:00] in this area because of specific vulnerabilities for young people around homelessness. And I think some more context of that is that we were asked to We were told that there weren't any submissions on homelessness from a rainbow perspective. So we within a couple of weeks, um, organised, um, to come together, as was it two different organisations to be able to, uh, present and submit on the actual nature of homelessness [00:01:30] from an LGBTI Q perspective. Um, so yeah, that's kind of how we came to be in this conversation. Yeah, we, um I think the the importance of having rainbow experiences described in a public forum felt huge to me. And I think to you, too, without speaking for you. Um, basically, if we're not at the table describing those vulnerabilities, then they get left out of strategic thinking of planning of resourcing. [00:02:00] Um and that feels unacceptable to me, given the things that we know from the work we do and from the lives we lead. Actually. And my experience has also been that, um when these kinds of conversations have come up in the past, because there's not many funded or resourced organisations around the health and well-being of rainbow people within aotearoa, um either from a youth perspective or from a general perspective, it means that there's often not people [00:02:30] around who are able to speak to our experiences in these forums. And so they go on and they go ahead and you get an idea and a capturing of, um, the the general state of Homelessness. But you you aren't able to hone into what the specific nature of what our communities might be experiencing. So it was really exciting to be able to actually have people who we who are in networks to be able to just come forward and just put something together, even if it was in a short amount of time. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I [00:03:00] wonder if we should start by defining homelessness in terms of how we understand it. Um, so I guess for me, I think the general public thinks about homelessness as street homelessness. And while that's horrific and awful, um, for me, homelessness is about much, much more than that. It's about having access. Having a home is about having access to a safe, secure space that you have some control over, Um, how people enter and leave that is free from all kinds of violence. [00:03:30] Um, and that you have some kind of control over being warm enough, being secure all of those kinds of things. If you don't have access to that, then I think we're you're in a situation where your housing is insufficient, and actually, you can be defined as homeless, as far as I'm concerned. Hm. I'm trying to think of the exact definition from the mahanna strategy from the Wellington City Council, and I think it talks about yeah, includes rough sleeping, but it also includes uninhabitable housing. [00:04:00] Um, and I guess when we come from this, we're talking about? Yeah, what it means to be in spaces that are actually, um, safe, you know, ideally physically, emotionally and spiritually as well. And that can sometimes added an extra layer in terms of what we're talking about, because, you know, to us, it's a big deal. If one you know, your gender that is assigned at birth is allowed back home. But the gender that you actually are is not allowed [00:04:30] back home, and that might not be picked up and more general kind of definitions of homelessness, I think. I guess the, um like many of the definitions that the state uses in New Zealand, that definition of street homeless is, um, really skewed towards a particular demographic which is basically men, um, so defining homelessness more broadly lets us look at how precarious and unsafe housing is for lots of groups, including rainbow people. Yeah, first, just thinking [00:05:00] about how big a problem is homelessness for rainbow people. Um, are you aware of any studies or data that currently exist? Uh, you know, as usual, the state isn't very good at counting the experiences of marginalised people. I don't think, um and particularly not very good at counting the experiences of sex, sexuality and gender diverse people. Um, so no, we've got rubbish data around this in New Zealand. We've got some indications from overseas [00:05:30] that higher proportions of rainbow young people than other young people are homeless. Um, and we've got some data that he has collected, um, which I think is really useful for this conversation. Um, so in terms of what what, um does really is we support people working with young people to do that work well and safely, and, um, and to enhance young people's opportunities to thrive. Really, And part of that work over the last four [00:06:00] years has been working with groups that are supporting rainbow young people, um, and and helping them do exciting, fantastic things. Um, and part of that has been discovering that there were 57 groups around the country working with rainbow young people at the moment in New Zealand. Um, those are the groups we've engaged with over the last two years, which was extraordinary. Obviously, I don't know that anyone had any idea that we had quite that many groups working to keep our rainbow young people safe, and it kind [00:06:30] of reflects how unsafe our communities are. I think, um so I guess that's the first bit. And the the second bit of work around that is really to ensure that the mainstream youth sector, um, has the supports. It needs to do that work well, because we're a mainstream organisation, we're not a Rabo specific organisation. Um, so part of our work over the last two or three years has been to ask the organisation supporting rainbow young people, what kinds of stuff they're doing and why that's mattering to the rainbow young people they're working [00:07:00] with. And our concern around homelessness came out of those, um, surveys and forums and and funding streams that we've had there. Um and I guess the figures I want to throw around. Um, So the 57 organisations around the country supporting rainbow young people the survey that we put out to those groups out of the groups that responded we had 59% So quite a lot more than half, saying that they'd helped a rainbow young person find emergency accommodation. [00:07:30] So someone in their groups had come and said, Home isn't safe for me. I've got nowhere to go. Um and that figure is awful. But the figure that I feel personally, even more disturbed by is that just over half of the groups that answered our survey had actually had to take someone home themselves, had had to have a volunteer who's always a Rambo young person as well take someone home because there was nowhere safe for that young person to go. So the existing homelessness services were not [00:08:00] appropriate, not safe, not available to Rainbow young people, perhaps as well. Um, and I think that's a pretty shocking state of affairs. To be honest, when we've got our volunteer groups having to hold that level of, um, vulnerability, really? You know, half our groups around the country that's for me. That's shocking. Yeah, it definitely reflects my experience within those groups as well. Yeah, yeah, I think. And again, coming back to [00:08:30] In general, homelessness is a really hard thing to track, like, as you say, any marginalised group, but in particular homelessness. Because a lot of the ways in which people gather data are usually from people having a having a stable home, and with those different layers of homelessness, it becomes really difficult. So a lot of people who may be couchsurfing or in transitional housing would not necessarily identify with the term homeless because it does carry a stigma. So in general, [00:09:00] homelessness is hard to track, and it becomes even more hard to track when it's for different marginalised groups. So I guess what I would be saying is, you know, it would be really useful to have more data. I think at present there is some work that is being taken is that at the University of Otago that is looking specifically into rainbow experiences of homelessness. So it's fantastic that that work is being done, you know, Back in 2008, the Human Rights Commission, um, went through an inquiry into Trans people's experiences in New [00:09:30] Zealand, and they found that Trans people were describing discrimination experiences in housing that were making their housing environments unsafe so we might not have, um we might not have the number data, but we've certainly got the stories that have been told for quite some time now about problems in accessing safe housing for rainbow people. I think, Yeah, absolutely. And I think it also goes to show that these these issues have been raised. However, [00:10:00] it doesn't mean that there's been any motivation for those in power to be able to follow up on that. So even, you know, there's this tendency that we need to have data and research to back everything up and albeit that helps. And it is important. But actually, you know, even if we did have that, it doesn't necessarily mean that that would translate into into more comprehensive support. And And you kind of have to know where to look for the information, too. Uh, you know, like if I think about the [00:10:30] the recent work that did that, that around, um, partner and sexual violence The people that answered our survey were not going to domestic violence services even when they needed them, because they knew those services were for them. So we've got there another place where you know, if we're leaving a relationship that's abusive, we've got nowhere to go except to our mates, probably. So there's all these these little indications of a problem existing. I guess so, I. [00:11:00] I think that it's you know there's lots of different causes of homelessness and we can talk about them in a bit But I definitely think that, you know, there is still a stigma around sexuality and gender, which can mean a higher risk of family rejection. Quite simply, um, family are not always equipped to be able to be able to support young people when they come out, and and even if they did want to, it doesn't mean that it's necessarily always going to happen for a whole variety of reasons. Um, [00:11:30] and that family rejection still does happen. Um, and this can be even harder if there's more marginalisation on top of this. I guess as well as this. It can be harder for people who are adults and having left home and being aged to live on their own. Um, within the current structure that we have, we currently depend on getting housing by usually, um, a landlord or property development or property management company. Being in charge of [00:12:00] that interaction and what I found from talking to young people is that generally, already being young can disadvantage them. And on top of that, if they do not have what is read or seen or presented as normative bodies, normative lifestyles, then it can mean that they are just driven further down the list of of being, you know, priority clients or tenants. Yeah, absolutely. [00:12:30] So, yeah, I think that that that is a concern that can affect people who might be particularly transgender and unable to so called pass. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree with all of that. And, um, I guess I'd say, too, that I think there's other structural issues that come into play here in terms of discrimination that sex, sexuality and gender diverse people experience around, um, employment and health care, meaning that we [00:13:00] sometimes have costs that other people don't have. And actually, disposable income matters when it comes to housing. So I think we've got, um we don't have any anything to prove that we're more at risk of homelessness, But we've got a whole bunch of kind of quite obvious, um, social norms and values and experiences of discrimination. I mean, I don't know that I would know anyone my age, and I'm in my forties who hasn't experienced rejection from landlords based on [00:13:30] sexuality or gender identity. And I imagine that's true across ages. And I think just linking into I mean the general causes of homelessness is talked about by local councils and services say that it's usually linked to poverty, mental health experiences, disabilities, addiction issues, emotional health and trauma, sexuality and gender convictions and imprisonment, unemployment and low wages [00:14:00] and a lack of affordable housing. So that's how they perceive of general homelessness. And it's also not hard to conceive how a lot of those different layers can affect, uh, sexuality and gender diverse people at the same rates, if not higher rates as well. And so you're already talking about people. I mean, for example, if you've had family rejection that could, you know, lead to emotional health and trauma. Um, there's plenty [00:14:30] of people who are sexuality and gender diverse who also have experiences with a lot of those different areas. So are they more at risk of being homeless? I would probably say that they are one of those really high risk populations, most certainly, and I think also wanting to add as well that, um, the how I say the housing crisis because there is a term that is currently being used within the media to describe what's taking place within [00:15:00] home ownership and home buying, and so on. I would say that the housing crisis has been in existence for a really, really long time. But this is just, you know, the current way that it's been talked about. And I think the way that our society is organised in terms of housing really, really exacerbates this issue. So in particular the majority of young people that I work with are always in transient housing situations and in low quality housing. My own house [00:15:30] has four leaks in it. At present, we're pretty much all queer or trans people who live there, um, with little power or ability to be able to negotiate, having a warmer, healthier, safer place to be able to live. And we consider our ourselves lucky that we even have a house and this is being, you know, a 27 year old. So I guess thinking about the general environment and market in terms of housing. It is not one that is geared towards human and social [00:16:00] need to begin with. And so then when you have any added marginalisation or experience beyond that, it's only going to make that harder and harder from there. Yeah, totally. I could not agree more with all of that. I think, um when I was thinking about the the question of what causes homeless homelessness, all of that stuff you talked about. Although I'm quite fascinated that the City Council doesn't think racism might be an issue there, that's interesting. Um, and and I guess for me, the fundamental driver [00:16:30] is that our housing situation in New Zealand has been set up as a site of profit, not as a site of need, Which means that everything that drives how our housing market operates and even the fact I'm using housing market, you know, um, is about building money for people who have enough money to be buying a house in the first place. Um, and when that's how your whole situation around providing housing for people is set up, needs are [00:17:00] invisible, you know? And I think I think that's what we see in terms of discrimination. I don't think we talk about discrimination very well in a whole bunch of ways around housing, but certainly not around those experiences for Rainbow people. And I guess the other part of that in terms of the the more at risk question, is that, um, if if we're more likely to be homeless anyway, and we think we probably are. And if we're in this kind of situation, where greed is, what's driving housing not need? We're also in a situation where the social services that [00:17:30] are set up to respond to homelessness in New Zealand they are under the cosh because that's how social services are at the moment they're set up for, um, people, they're set up for heterosexual people. Finding emergency housing for us is more complicated, because sometimes the gender of services is not appropriate for us. Sometimes the vocation of faith based settings is not appropriate for us. Sometimes there's been, um, no consideration around how we might make those [00:18:00] spaces safer for us. In fact, I'd say, almost always there's been no consideration about how we make those those spaces safer. So we've got this, um, world where housing is a problem for Stop. We've got the discrimination that the Rainbow Communities experience, and then we've got these social services that don't fit for us, so that whole picture adds up to a real mess. I think around homelessness for us. There's a quote here as well. Um, from an article that I wrote possibly a couple of years back, which is based on the fight back website. [00:18:30] And the quote here says the link between colonisation, poverty and homelessness runs strong, and I guess just wanting to ask and talk about what we've already touched on here. But if there's any further comments around the further layers that can add comple complexity, um, to the issue around housing, yeah, I feel like you said in what said about eight words what I just said about 900 [00:19:00] because that's I mean, that sums it up. Actually, the problem is that we've got a, um, a system that it's a white system. It's a colonial system. It's a capitalist system, and it's been set up in a neoliberal world to, um, not prioritise housing for everybody in New Zealand. Absolutely. I think the other thing as well is that, um, the data, at least what is being seen, for example, just on, um, street [00:19:30] homelessness in Wellington is that and this is general homelessness is that the majority of those people on the streets are Maori. Um, and I don't think that that can be ignored. Um, and I absolutely think that that's linked back to our history of colonisation, particularly a lot of people who are really disconnected from the places where they've been, whether or not there's broken relationships, trauma, violence, addictions and so on. Um [00:20:00] and I think that just adds an extra layer, um, to what we're kind of grappling with here at the same time. Um And so I would say that particularly if you are Maori or and, um, within the rainbow community questioning your sexuality or gender, it is likely from just looking at what we've already got, that it's going to be even more difficult for you to be able to provide housing, which [00:20:30] is just this really twisted, awful, but also sadly commonplace occurrence that takes place within colonised countries. So, um so yeah, I guess that's just one of one of the things that has been seen quite generally. Yeah. The next question here is is homelessness just affecting youth? Um, and you know, the the focus of being involved in the submission was young people, because that's our core business. [00:21:00] Um, but we can you know, a lot of the issues that we've talked to here today. Discrimination, access to employment and so on might not improve as we age. Actually, as rainbow people, Um, I think the the stuff that is a little bit different for older rainbow people is that we're not, um, necessarily as dependent on our family of origin, um, around safe housing. Although I know it can also be true that that that kind of [00:21:30] that shift over time creates isolation in quite an ongoing way. And that's sort of some of the stuff that you were just speaking to. I think, um, there's certainly the question of how appropriate our aged care facilities are. I think for older rainbow people, and you know, I don't I don't feel like I know enough about that to comment. But it's something that would be interesting to look at more closely. Probably. I mean, homelessness as a whole is definitely not just affecting youth. Um, and [00:22:00] from my experience, most of the mainstream services are more generally dealing with adults. Um, tracking adults supporting adults. They're quite I think they're usually more visible in some cases as well. Um, and I know that there's been a move to addressing more youth homelessness in particular. Um, that has been happening from a more general level. Um, but again, [00:22:30] when it comes back to being in that highly competitive market, I think a lot of it often comes down to whether or not you're able to pass, which is a really big thing. So, for example, you know an older trans man who has been on hormone therapy for a number of years, Um may have a different experience to an older Trans woman who is, has had the same experience and is not, but is not able to pass or has transitioned at a later age. Um [00:23:00] and yeah, I think it's really while a lot of the kind of focus gets put on young people, often within Rainbow communities. And because I think young people have fought for that to be the case. Um, I really do think that, like, I wouldn't want to see an invisible of what happens particularly to older trans people when it comes to housing and homelessness. And I think the difference the only difference that often comes back is again [00:23:30] not as dependent on family of origin and possibly having more disposable income, Possibly, but not always. So yeah, um whereas young people If you're living with your family, it's You're in a really different situation. If you are kicked out or need to leave home. I wonder if there's some differences, too, around, um, capacity for support within the community, which is still completely unacceptable, actually, that we're having to house one another because housing [00:24:00] is so hard to get into. But I know myself, You know, I'm in a position now where I can put my friends up or people I know up or people that other people ask me to put up. Um, because I have a lot more control over my housing situation than I did when I was younger. So I can do that. Um, and I do do that, and I wonder if that's a little bit more accessible when you've been out for a bit longer and you're a bit older, Maybe, yeah, definitely. There is a question here [00:24:30] just about the difference in experiences and responses to homelessness between rural and urban settings. Um, and I'm wondering if we want to talk about that. I think earlier we both talked about that. Our majority of our experiences, if I'm right, is from an urban setting um, but did want to mention that it seems kind of common that there are less least clear services, often in [00:25:00] rural settings. They are able to provide that support that you're referring to before Sandra. But also we talked about how it is quite common for people questioning their sexuality or gender to, um, or identifying as non straight or non heterosexual to wait until they move away from their family of origin or their town of origin before they come out. I think that's a really unfortunately common [00:25:30] narrative, not for everyone. Um, and in doing so, I would say that we could possibly infer that it means that people are usually just waiting out and staying with staying in the closet, so to speak, while they're in rural environments. But this is this is just us kind of making guesses rather than speaking from direct experience, shooting the breeze a bit and I, I guess I think, too, in terms of the work that [00:26:00] he has been doing those 57 youth groups around the country, they're not all in Wellington, Christchurch and Auckland. You know they are all over the place. There are all kinds of little groups springing up because the situation for young people where they are is not OK for rainbow young people. So I'd say, um, if rainbow homelessness is hidden in the broader sense, it's pro, possibly even more hidden in the rural sense. Hm. So have we seen [00:26:30] a support within Rainbow Communities for Rainbow homelessness? Or does it feel like there's been a lack of that? Uh, I think we've seen some groups, and some people consistently try and talk about this issue. I think that for me personally, there's been a fear at times that when, um, things like marriage equality have happened, that we haven't always kept our eye on some of the ways that some people in our community [00:27:00] are still really vulnerable and really marginalised. So I'd say that, um, it's not always as bigger priority for Rainbow Communities as personally. I think it should be, Um, I think sometimes the support inside the rainbow community comes more pragmatically than that, though you know, So it might not necessarily be people talking about it, um, or agitating for it or or organising activist stuff about it. It might [00:27:30] come from, actually, people sleep on my sofa when they need to, and I think that happens all the time. You know, I know, I know that's something that happens in my household. And I know lots and lots and lots of people who make that happen when there's housing need for us. So there's that kind of practical, beautiful stuff that Rainbow community members do for one another. So in that way, yes, I think it's it's still live for us. I agree 100%. I think that our communities have had to take each other in and look after each other, as you say, [00:28:00] and there has been some really beautiful UM, support that has come come from that. And in fact we often know that if we don't take someone in, we don't know if anyone else is, um so I think that, yes, that that definitely does happen in terms of the broader question around kind of agitating around around homelessness. I think it's hard. I honestly think that a lot of forms of homelessness, um, are really normalised within our society, [00:28:30] and this is my experience of within an urban setting, but it's it's quite normalised that you will be out of a home or out of a flat for a degree of time while you're trying to find another place to live, because there's not that many houses that seem available. And so I think in some I I would make a guess to say that maybe it doesn't feel like it's a need to be really, um, fought for because [00:29:00] yeah is often quite quite normalised, Um, but again, I think that, you know, we're not often thinking about this real specific nature of of how we deal with this around sexuality and gender and calling it for what it is as well. I mean, homelessness isn't always again, as I said, a word that people will use, but it's essentially what's happening. I completely agree with that, and it's a really interesting way of thinking about it. Actually, we are so used [00:29:30] to, you know, headlines about baby boomers, Children not being able to buy housing, but buy houses that they want to. And that being the way we talk about housing A rather than actually there's a hell of a lot of New Zealanders living in substandard accommodation and that's not OK. Um, yeah, I think that's definitely true. So we as we mentioned, we made a submission on behalf of a couple of organisations. If we could just take some time to explain, [00:30:00] um, what they are and you've already talked about, but maybe what they're doing in this area at the moment, if anything Yeah, yeah. Um So I did talk about a I'll just put it all together in one place though. So, um, I do contract work for around rainbow young people. Um, and the the They're a peak body for youth development in a New Zealand. They're an umbrella organisation with 900 members. And those members include, [00:30:30] um, individuals working with young people like youth workers or health clinicians or teachers. They include organisations like schools or youth health services or faith based, um youth support groups and they include national organisations. So the, um the ability for to have a, um a kind of really well rounded view of what's happening for young people is quite high, which makes it a really good place to work. Actually, um and and the is around supporting [00:31:00] people working with young people to be more connected, effective and accountable. Um and I I guess the the reason he is active in this space is some very ethical and full of integrity. Um, leaders, really, over the last couple of years, who've looked at the consistent feedback the youth sector is giving of feeling like they don't yet have the tools to best support sex, sexuality and gender diverse young people and wanting help with that. So [00:31:30] our role really has been around, um, lifting the voices and supporting the voices of people working with rainbow young people and being a bridge between the mainstream sector, including providing and and creating tools for the mainstream sector to be, um, to be safer, really, to be safe places to be a young person, um, and and and in terms of ongoing work for a in this area, um, we'll continue to We will definitely continue to be talking [00:32:00] about the the information that we have and that we hold, and we'll continue to be creating resources to help those mainstream environments shift their practise. And I guess around now, if we think about that in terms of homelessness, having housing facilities for young people that are inappropriate for rainbow young people, for example, that would be an area that we would see as being something that we could help with, Um, in terms of increasing competencies with working with rainbow young [00:32:30] people, which might mean things like changing the physical set out of a place so that we don't have gender separate spaces. We have spaces that are that are more mixed. Or it might mean having, um, policies that aren't discriminating around the gender that someone's been assigned at birth. Or it might mean having, um, challenges to services that are operating for young women, making sure that they're including trans young women, too. There's a whole bunch of ways that we would do that work, I think, yeah. [00:33:00] Do you want to speak to the queer and trends Grant? You know, um, they weren't specific to this, but I think they were a really important and key part of the community capacity in many different areas. Um, I guess the I see that his work here he goes back four or five years now. Um, and probably three years ago now, we, um, began distributing queer and trends grants, which were small grants for organisations [00:33:30] with a focus or groups with a focus on rainbow young people, and they were basically grants for those groups to be able to do whatever they thought they wanted to do. Um And so there was something really beautiful about not having, you know, stuff tied to it. That was about what funders wanted. It was totally about what community wanted. Um, and the person who facilitated that was from the rain Bay community. It was the wonderful cable with extensive experience in in youth work. Um, and [00:34:00] one of the pieces of feedback we got consistently from from that work was that it was wonderful for those groups not to have to explain why they needed money to do this or that because actually, cable got it and was able to hold that to hold that knowledge inside. And I guess the stuff that came out of that well, firstly, the survey results that I talked about earlier that came out of that. But we also, um we've done some specific things to answer some of the queries we got at the time. So one of the [00:34:30] things the 57 groups around the country said to us was we can't access funding because whenever we try. We get told that actually, the things that we're saying are made up and unless we can trot out a young person to tell a horror story about suicidality that actually our funders in our local places don't believe us. And actually, it's not OK for us to be trotting out young people to tell horror stories about their lives. Um, so we put together some, um, some infographics [00:35:00] actually to to help people tell those stories and help them access funding where they were. Um, and I guess that's kind of been part of the response from the Queer Insurance grants process. Was listening to those 57 groups around the country helping them create tools that help them do their work better, as well as providing the small grants of funding. And unfortunately, the, um, that small grants funding wasn't offered to us in the in 2016. Um, [00:35:30] we're hopeful it will be reoffered again, but at the moment that that that stream of funding has dried up despite our needs not having dried up, and I want to acknowledge as well the way that that was done, because I think that, um, it was giving communities, the agency and the ability and the resources to be able to decide what was best for them and just go and roll that out. So what you found that there were, I would say, quite a lot of groups of, of queer or trans people that otherwise would [00:36:00] have usually been quite marginalised. Um, whether it's different ethnic groups, whether or not it's just different backgrounds, um, cultural spaces and so on. We're now able to just be given the resources to run with what they wanted to do. And I think that was really about self determination in a way as well. So I just really want to acknowledge that we some work from and and overseeing that in terms of evolved Wellington youth Um service, Um, so our service is A is a part of the one [00:36:30] youth, one stop shop model. We operate from a wraparound model of care, and the idea is that we want to be able to break down barriers for young people being able to access health care and support. So we're based in inner city Wellington. But there's many different services, such as our own, that operate across the country um, to name a few yachts in Palmerston North, um, and Vibe in the heart and youth service. And And And I would say [00:37:00] that a lot of these services are often at the forefront of engaging with around sexuality and gender, and probably because that is what we're seeing. And so therefore, we are responding to that. So we are about one of kind of a broader a broader model. Um, and what we do is we offer free health care and support for young people aged 10 to 25 and that can look like, uh, GPS for free. It can look like sexual health nurses, general, nursing youth [00:37:30] workers, um, counsellors, mental health support. So there's a whole range of different places in this one building. Essentially, um, now, part of my role as mentioned, is that I'm a youth worker here. The majority of my work is one on one mentoring and support to young people, um, and occasionally running groups as well. Um, the majority of the work that I currently do is in supporting sexuality and gender diverse young people, and [00:38:00] that's been quite a specific thing that has come from my own particular background, and I'm really lucky to be able to do that work. Um, I'm very thankful to our manager because she is the only reason I would say that we're in a position to even be able to do this work. Otherwise, it's seen as this this luxury. Um, but yes, there's a lot that is able to be done within this. Um, a lot of my work is supporting young trans people through their transition, whether or not [00:38:30] it's giving them the latest info on where they need to go to, um, get hormone therapy, finding a trans friendly place or, um, linking them in with other groups, or even just a place to explore their gender or sexuality in terms of uh so I guess what we're able to We actually have quite a high number of, uh, particularly gender diverse young people that access our service. Um, and this has taken a while of building up a relationship. And [00:39:00] what that means is we're already seeing a lot of young, transgender people, and we are also seeing young homeless people as well. And often these two can overlap. Um, one of the appeal of our services is that because we're free, we're able to really provide a service to people who are on low incomes on benefits or, for example, of trans young people who need multiple, um, visits for health care. Um, they're able to access us for free. [00:39:30] So that's really, really handy now in terms of their homeless homelessness stuff. Specifically, we are a member of the street outreach team that, um, that monitors the numbers of homeless people or, um, beggars or rough sleepers who are on the Wellington streets. So, um, so I'm a member of that group. Um, during this winter, we noticed an increase in general homelessness among young people. So we [00:40:00] started up a collaborative, a project with three other organisations BG I, zeal and services. And we started putting on a free meal for young people who may not be able to afford meals so easily. So we did that this winter. We also offer just ongoing support in general for people who are struggling with homelessness. And we have free showers available as well, which is often a bit of a magnet, particularly to people who are on the streets, um, [00:40:30] and with myself and with other people who have experienced around sexuality and gender diversity at this At this service, that means that we're really able to hone in and provide 1 to 1 support for young people within the situation. So that's the majority of work that we're doing and we'll hopefully be continuing to do What would you like to see? Change both immediately in the longer term. And this is always the million dollar question, isn't it? Do you have any thoughts on this? And oh, many, [00:41:00] many, many thoughts? Um, I mean the first thing. And this is an issue in every single kind of area of of social life, really. And health. Life for rainbow people, I think, is that we need to be included in the strategic planning and resourcing of what's happening out there. Because if we're not, then we're always having to try and make services that haven't been set up for us or responses that haven't been set up for us. We're trying to make them fit, and they just don't so that visibility. [00:41:30] And this is the reason that we went to the homelessness inquiry that visibility of our needs needs to be built into strategic planning from the very beginning. Um, that means that we should There shouldn't be a homelessness strategy written in New Zealand That doesn't talk about how to respond to rainbow young people or rainbow people in general. Um, that means that we need to have way better systems of collecting information than we have now. Um, I think our data collection in New Zealand is horrific. In many [00:42:00] ways, it needs to be more accurate, because otherwise the resourcing that we need won't happen. Um, so that's my first rant. And that would be my rant about almost any issue you can come across, actually, um, so that's not actually probably that specific to homelessness. Then I've got two more kind of rent things I want to say. Would you like to go? OK, so the first thing is, I think we need some specific services here. You know, I think that, um, that the ability to kind of even explore what it would look like [00:42:30] for rainbow young people to have everything that they need around housing isn't going to happen in mainstream services. I think we need some, um, some emergency hostel accommodation that is safe for us. and has been set up for us and then added to that, I think we need our mainstream services to be much better equipped to be dealing with rainbow young people. So that means that it should be a requirement. If you're going to be receiving any kind of funding that actually you're audited around how you respond to rainbow experiences, which means that you [00:43:00] understand what transitioning means and you understand what it means to look like a service and to be a service in which trans people are welcome and provided with what they need and treated in ways that demonstrate respect and make sure that that service is a service that is safe for people to use. Um, and at the moment we just have nothing like that happening, unfortunately at all. So those would be my two, the strategic inclusion, the data collection and then the specific [00:43:30] services and the mainstream youth services being better equipped, those would be my kind of key first steps, and I think mine kind of continue down from that point. So once all of that has been done, I, I think it would be useful to be able to have some form of space institution, a place where actually our knowledge is around health. Rainbow health is collected and acted [00:44:00] upon. I think at the moment we have, you know, in terms of our communities, we have pockets of knowledge from dedicated people who have usually put their love and time into doing this without much money. Um, but also it's so easy for that knowledge to be lost and high turnover of those people in those positions. I'm particularly thinking about those small services who have had amazing superstars doing that work of housing. Young people get [00:44:30] burnt out and then disappear. And I'm thinking, Where does that knowledge go? Um, once all of that disappearing has happened. So I think that thinking about organisations or places where we can start collectivising this knowledge not just around homelessness but the intersections of health and sexuality and gender, which is just a huge massive area that is so under scrutinised, funded and resource within a, um, having [00:45:00] that place would be really, really helpful. And I don't know exactly what that would look like, but at the moment everything's very scattered. I think that, um, one issue that I see is that family parents are not equipped with the knowledge and the tools to be able to adequately support their young people. And so what that usually means is, um, young people will be going through their huge journey in terms of their sexuality or gender, and parents will really be left out of the dark in the dark about what's going on. And there's not many [00:45:30] places where those two journeys are bridged. So at the moment, the majority of support that we have for looks like either the few or the 57 organisations providing a bit of ad hoc support or P flags that have been set up in the past. Um, but I wouldn't even say that there's a huge presence of those at this point in time. That's my understanding. There's two that are live that I'm aware of. So two yeah, compared to the 57 other organisations. [00:46:00] So, yeah, where are the places where families can start finding their way to, um, link in and support so that family rejection isn't such a norm? Um, the other thing I'm thinking about is that's not going to happen in every single situation, even if you have families who know all about it. So where are the safe places that people can go if that doesn't work out? And there have been discussions over whether or not hostels or emergency accommodation or anything like that would be the right fit. And I don't have the answer to that exactly. [00:46:30] I think that needs to come from the communities themselves, what that would look like. Um, but there's very little emergency transitional housing in general. So thinking about what that could look like, Uh, lastly, I think that yeah, the housing crisis crises need to be really firmly addressed within aotearoa and not just left up to the market to determine whether or not we have a safe living place to be able to dwell in. And that's not going to happen overnight. But I do think that, [00:47:00] um, while that continues to be the case, it's going to be hard for any marginalised person to be able to find safe, stable, adequate housing. Yeah, totally. I totally agree with all of that. I think that, um, that sort of wider structural stuff around the housing in general. And I guess for me too, the wider structural stuff around homophobia, biphobia transphobia racism As long as those things are not, um addressed, Recognised responded to, we're going to continue to have housing vulnerabilities. [00:47:30] Uh, so there's there's stuff around making sure that our family and are safer for our rainbow young people. And there's stuff around making sure that our communities are safer for all of us, which means challenging and addressing transphobia, biphobia and homophobia. It says, What can we do as rainbow communities to support this? Obviously they just support all the things that just were mentioned. You could just listen to us and just roll that out. That would be really great [00:48:00] in syndrome manifesto. Hm. There's something for me in this around making sure that we continue to prioritise and listen to our most marginalised people, I guess, and I'm not sure that we always do that enough. Um, I think we should continue, and I know we will continue to do all the great and beautiful stuff that we do to support one another when we need one another. I think you know our chosen family, or, as I like to call it, my logical family, as opposed to my biological family. My logical family [00:48:30] is a critical support for me. And I think the ways that we continue to support one another around that is really important. Yeah, absolutely. I. I think that Rainbow Communities have just done such an amazing job of, you know, often just trying to keep each other alive and survive through this. And so I think we need to just keep doing that, Um, and also work out ways that we can yes, not forget about the most marginalised or the most poorest queers who are not able to afford, um, homes and [00:49:00] so on. Keep it on the agenda. Probably something, too, about seeing each other in this week. A like I think sometimes we're very, very critical of each other, actually, in terms of the groups that are active in support spaces. And at the end of the day, you know, all of our is about lifting up all of us. So, supporting the beautiful work that is going on already, I think that's really important. I agree.

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TITLE: Archives New Zealand
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VOICES: Donal Raethel
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1900s; 1910s; 1940s; 1970s; 1980s; 2nd New Zealand Expeditionary Force; Alexander Turnbull Library; Amy Bock; Aotearoa New Zealand; Archives New Zealand; Auckland War Memorial Museum; Australia; Bougainville Island; Captain James Cook; Carmen Rupe; Charles Mackay; Civil Union Act (2004); Criminal Records (Clean Slate) Act (2004); Denmark; Donal Raethel; Fran Wilde; German; Hjelmar von Dannevill; Hocken Library (Dunedin); Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Indecent Publications Act (1963); Kelburn; Listener (magazine); London; Manatū Hauora Ministry of Health; Marlene Dietrich; Matiu / Somes Island; Member of Parliament; Ministry of Justice; Miramar; NZ Truth; National Party Research Unit; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand Broadcasting Corporation (NZBC); New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF); Pacific; Police Gazette; Police Offences Act (1927); Privacy Act (1993); Privileges Committee; Public Records Act (2005); Ralph Dyer; Royal Commission; Society and the Homosexual (G Westwood, 1952); Sydney; United Kingdom; Walter D'Arcy Cresswell; Wellington; Whanganui; Women's suffrage petition (1893); World War 1; World War 2; anxiety; arts; assumptions; censorship; civil unions; clothing; copyright; coroner; coroners inquest; court-martial; courts; customs; divorce; drag; education; enemy alien; film; funding; gay; governance; government; hair; health; homosexual; homosexual law reform; homosexual law reform petition; indecent assault; indecent publications; language; law; lesbian; marriage; media; medicine; military; military service records; newspapers; paperspast. natlib. govt. nz; performance; petition; photography; police; police records; prisoners; privacy; records; relationships; research; school; security; select committee; stigma; television; trans; transexual; transgender; transition; women
DATE: 4 October 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm a a senior archivist here. I've been here at archives in New Zealand for about eight years. The difference between our holdings and other institutions is that we hold the New Zealand government record so we don't go out to collect a broad range of community based records such as Alexander Turnbull Library may collect. We certainly don't purchase records. The records come to us usually directly from the government [00:00:30] agency that has created or used or inherited those records. Uh, that's the main difference between us and a library, uh, or a large institution like Alexander Turnbull or the or Auckland War Memorial Museum. So can you give me an example of a government agency? What are we talking about? Government agency might include a ministry, Um, would include the courts. New Zealand police, uh, government [00:01:00] departments, uh, in it includes a royal commissions, um, includes, um, government agencies involved in health and education. Um, schools in the past have deposited material with us either directly or through the the erstwhile, um, education boards. So it's a fairly broad range of institutions around the country that we broadly call [00:01:30] government agencies. So would it go as far as say say, like the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, which is funded via the Ministry of Health. No, no, it wouldn't. That's a stand alone organisation that exists with financial support. Um, but it is not deemed to be a New Zealand government agency. It, uh, as a trust or as as a separate entity, it has its own life outside government. So can you give me the, uh, um the scope of the collections, the size [00:02:00] and how far back the collection is going? We collect records regardless of medium. So if they are deemed to be a permanent value perpetual value, then we would take them in. If they're New Zealand government records now, that can be film. It can be audio tape. Uh, it can, in some limited instances, be published material, but usually it will be one off material. It can be old fashioned paper files. It can be artwork. [00:02:30] If the artwork is deemed to be a government record. Such as, for example, the national collection of war art. That is a government record. It's a record of New Zealanders experience in places and times of war. Um so the scope extends as broadly as it can in terms of medium. Now we're moving more into bringing in born digital records. So they do not have to be hard copies. They can be born digital [00:03:00] the size of the holdings. Well, that's a moot point. Um, here in the Wellington office, by far the largest repository, we have approximately 80 kilometres of shelving or the equivalent of 80 kilometres of shelving in this building. We've got smaller holdings in the Auckland, Christchurch and Dunedin offices. But certainly it would be over 100 well over 100 kilometres of shelves. Uh, of of holdings. Um, our earliest record, [00:03:30] rather bizarrely is not. In fact, it couldn't be deemed to be a New Zealand government record. Um, but it was given to the New Zealand government. Um, it's a letter from Captain James Cook, uh, to Captain Clark, uh, on the I. I hope I remember this correctly on the second voyage cook made around the world. So it was given to New Zealand by the city of London. Uh, and it ended up in archives here. [00:04:00] That's by far our oldest record. But most of the records we hold are from 18 40 onwards when a a European style government bureaucracy is created here. So a bureaucracy of that sort starts creating records. So the records start from that point and grow in size from then on. Yeah, and so is it compulsory for government agencies to deposit with you? [00:04:30] No. No, it's not compulsory. Um, determinations have to be made about whether or not the records are deemed to be of permanent value. Certainly not all records are kept permanently. Um, all government agencies, um, are held by the conditions of the Public Records Act. So the relationship and the and the the fact of whether they are beholden to deposit certain records with us is determined by that act. [00:05:00] So that becomes the field in which we work. The parameters are set by the act. There would be an enormous quantity that's held long term by an agency and then disposed of one way or another after a specified period of time. As you can appreciate the amount of record created nowadays, it's simply impossible to keep the lot. It can't be done in relation to rainbow communities. What does [00:05:30] archives New Zealand hold? We hold here wondrous treasures, I think, is the best way to put it. Um, we hold records here from agencies, New Zealand government departments about those government agencies, relationship and dealings with New Zealand people so that it can be any one of many, many, many agencies that will have had dealings [00:06:00] with members of our communities. So they may be the fairly obvious kinds of records. They may be records like court records or police records, but they can be a much wider set of records. So there's no narrow scope where where our records sit within the larger holdings. Uh, that makes searching sometimes quite slow and makes surprises even more wonderful. Um, I would [00:06:30] say possibly the majority of records will be those records that fall within law in the broadest sense, Um, and also within the governance or parliamentary process. We have a significant number of records that relate to things such as parliamentary select committee hearings and findings, petitions and so on. But there's certainly more wider [00:07:00] scope than just those. Maybe be an opportunity here to even bring up AAA specific example Here, Um, I have on the table here in front of me as a small selection of some of the records that we've identified over the last few years. Um, one of them is a collection of newspaper clippings. Um, that has come to us, uh, from the old Parliamentary, the national parliamentary research unit. [00:07:30] Now they would have over the decades, collected newspaper clippings from around a vast number of topics that they decided to keep tabs on what was out there in the public arena. This one here, this record here is a box full of paper newspaper clippings regarding homosexual law reform so that if I just open the box up and we will just see that it's a a relatively unsorted pile of newspaper clippings but nevertheless would be incredibly [00:08:00] useful for a researcher in that it brings together what's in the public arena. And it also shows us what was available easily to parliamentarians when they were wanting to research homosexual law reform so that the service provided within the parliamentary services have bequeathed that to us. So we can now look back and say, Well, what was it? Parliamentarians and previous previous parliaments [00:08:30] were laying their hands on to make their decisions. So it's not just about the object, but it's actually where the object came from who was using it and why they were using it. Yes, exactly. And what influence it may have had on decision making. Um, if one analysed the newspaper reports that have been clipped out of the papers and put in there, are they supportive of law reform? Um, was there a suggestion in looking in them that there was a bias against law reform? [00:09:00] We don't know. Until we actually had a really thorough look what? Newspapers were being sourced. Um, were they just the the the large national papers that were providing that sort of information, or maybe something like the or was it smaller local, regional and even small town papers that were being sourced with those local community? Uh, opinions or purported opinions be made available in that way to MP [00:09:30] S. That's the kind of research you could get, perhaps from a record such as this. Are there other topics covered by the parliamentary library that have got kind of rainbow connections? Yes, Yes, certainly. Well, coming out of Parliament, the parliament, if I speak more broadly about parliament itself, as well as the the research unit we have here a wonderful record entitled it's from the 37th Parliament. So it's 1975 [00:10:00] and it's from the Privileges Committee. And it's an inquiry they made into Carmen. And when she spoke on television, she made some statements on television about the statistical probability of there being homosexual members of Parliament. And this caused great ruckus, and she was hauled before the Parliamentary Privileges Committee. Um, and [00:10:30] so this is a record of those events. Um, now we would find that utterly absurd to even suggest that she was impugning the the the the morals, you know, the the vigour of the purity of the parliamentarians. But at that time, it was considered that she had overstepped the mark. Um and so there is a record of that happening in 1975 and her response also [00:11:00] to the accusation and the charge that she had breached parliamentary privilege. And I'm not sure, was she found kind of guilty of breaching or Yeah, yeah. Essentially, Yes. My understanding from memory is that yes, it was a breach of privilege. Um, and the and there were repercussions. So the difficulties were not only for herself, but, uh, also the, uh I'm pretty sure in those days, it was still the NZ BC. [00:11:30] So the interviewer, uh, there were a number of people who became involved in it. Um, I don't remember any severe sanctions placed against her. Um, but there was the potential of that happening. Um, breach of parliamentary privilege is is can be a very severe. There can be severe outcomes from that. So, um, we have, um yeah, a number of such reports and other things coming out of parliament [00:12:00] or parliamentary services parliamentarians. Um, we have one here, for example. Much more recently. It's a, uh, the Justice and Electoral Committee. And they're reporting upon, uh, the civil Union bill. So once the bill had been submitted and then submissions are made in response to the bill, we can now look at how it was that that committee responded and the bill that they sorry the report that they wrote as a response to public [00:12:30] feedback they got So is everything that's tabled in Parliament. Does that eventually come to archives? Not necessarily, as I understand it, but usually usually our holdings for records that are tabled go way, way back into the 19th century. So very frequently they will be. I'm not aware of many of them that early or any of them. In fact, that early, uh, having a specific rainbow connection or LGBTI [00:13:00] can connection. But certainly there are petitions. There are reports of this that and the other. So things like, say, the, uh, the anti homosexual law reform petition from 85 86. Do you do? Do you have that? I've never cited it. Um, but I Yes, I assume so. Because we have we do hold petitions once they come to us. Um, the most famous of which is the women's suffrage petition of 18 93 the final and successful petition [00:13:30] that is by far the most famous of those petitions. But there are many, many petitions that come through to us. They can be quite small, and they can be of tens of thousands of signatories. So how long does it take you to process and accession? Something after the event. So you've got civil unions from, what, 2005 ish. How long does it take it before it's publicly available? That is incredibly [00:14:00] variable. Records don't necessarily come to us immediately or promptly. There is a kind of understanding that records should be available for us to make a determination about after 25 years, but not necessarily. Some records will come much sooner than that if they are not needed for any further government or business. If a government function ceases to exist, then the records might come to us something like a royal [00:14:30] commission. Once that royal commission is wound up, then that that function of the government examining those matters that finishes so the records become available to us very quickly. Other records might remain with an agency because they say, Well, we might need them or we are still using them even many years later, Um, other records, to be honest, may be just sitting somewhere, and there are plenty of instances of records sitting in places and being unearthed [00:15:00] as it were, and then people making an appraisal how to deal with them. What's the appropriate place for those to go? Do they need to be kept forever and so on? So that's a very, very variable, um, outcome for records once they're created or once they're finished with even and just thinking about, say, the um Select Committee for the Civil Union act that was all public. Well, I think most of it was [00:15:30] when it comes to archives, New Zealand, Does it still Is it still public? Can Can the public still access that material freely? Yes. Yes. These records that I've got here with me today. These are all public open records. Um, and I wouldn't be talking about them, particularly if they were not unrestricted or open. Certainly there are large numbers of records that are restricted have restrictions placed on their access. That [00:16:00] usually is for privacy reasons. It may be for preservation reasons. The record may be too delicate and too fragile. So we would make the record available in some other format. Some of them may be restricted for reasons of for diplomatic sensitivities. Um, national security and so on. Um, physical security building plans, for example, at Parliament house are not available to the general public. But by [00:16:30] the most part, the records we deal with are restricted either under the Privacy Act or under the clean Slate act. So those that relate to criminal convictions have limitations placed on their access so that that has a direct impact. When we're dealing with the histories of gay men being charged under the Police Offences Act, for example. Those records are not necessarily available for quite some [00:17:00] time, however, in that instance, and in all instances where a record is restricted, there are provisions for a researcher to make application for access for research purposes, and conditions may be placed on that researcher um, the agency that still controls their records might want to be satisfied that personal privacy is no longer placed at risk. For example, evidence [00:17:30] that that individual has passed away might be required, and then privacy is no longer such a great concern. Um, so there are ways in which you can do research even if the records are nominally restricted, there's just some other processes and procedures to go through to get the permissions. Are you aware of some kind of, uh, significant court cases or police cases involving rainbow people that you have material on? Yes, [00:18:00] Um, we have an interesting record here in front of me. Now, this is, um, but it's not so much a police file there. There's police involvement in it. Um, and I will show you the photos and the and the photographs of this remarkable woman will be going online. I understand, but here she is. Here. Um, her name is Doctor Daville. She stated that she was danish. Now this record that we have [00:18:30] of her about her dates from the first World War, she came to the notice of the authorities because they weren't sure whether she was Danish or German. She was not a British subject. Um so therefore, she was deemed to be an alien. They had to decide whether she was an enemy, alien or not. Now, as you can see from the photographs, she wore men's clothing [00:19:00] for for the tie, the high collar, the jacket, the watch chain. She wore very short hair, but she did at the same time wear a very long skirt. She's the most wonderful dress since an extraordinary woman she lived with a woman in Kilborn. Um, some research has been done to her. Certainly she warrants a lot more, but we We're assuming that a great deal of her difficulty with New Zealand authorities is that they [00:19:30] couldn't quite deal with the fact that not only weren't they sure about her political allegiances during times of war, First world war, but Maybe they couldn't actually deal with the the clothes she wore. They couldn't deal with her views on medicine. For example, The, um they couldn't deal with the fact that she was quite probably the lover of a woman, and they were living together up in Kilburn. Uh, so there are a lot of she came to to the attention of [00:20:00] police and army authorities because of that. And so and we have AAA fairly good file about her and a verbatim record of her interviews with, um the figures who of the personnel who interviewed her and tried to work out what? How they were going to deal with her in in in the middle of the war. Was she a threat to national security? For example, how did she come to the attention of the authorities? She, like anyone who was not a British subject [00:20:30] at that time, would have been investigated during during the period of the first World War. Um, and they immediately would have decided that she was an alien IE, not a British subject. Then they had to make a determination. Was she an enemy alien? Was she a German national? Although she said she was of Danish background, and some of the documentation on here suggests that they weren't sure whether to believe her or not, because everything else in her story is pretty fluid. [00:21:00] She's not someone who's going to stick to the hard and fast rules of society. So she's presumably a bit suspect as far as a very straight laced society would have been at the time of the concerns and even the paranoia that swept around in that period from 1914 to 1918. So in the documentation are they open about, say, her relationship with another woman? I mean, the kind of language that's being used. Are they? Are [00:21:30] they using words like lesbian? No, I'm not aware of that. It's quite some time since I've read. Read this. No, I don't remember that being stated, but it is mentioned that she lives lives in KBO. Um, it doesn't That is simply part of the mosaic of her nonconformity, I think rather than, um, something to absolutely focus on. At that time, they they were just on edge, it seems, [00:22:00] because of her general nonconformity and dress and her attitudes towards modern Western medicine, For example, she had a clinic. She ran out AM memory, which was probably what now? Nowadays, we would call of a holistic nature rather than a very, um, how would you call it? A A straight, [00:22:30] um, science driven, uh, medical profession driven approach to illness and well and well being. So she she stepped outside the boundaries in a lot of ways. Yeah. When you're looking at these early records, do you have tips for, um, the kind of language that kind of flags somebody as possibly different rainbow? What sort of what What words do [00:23:00] you look for? Um, I did a little test earlier today. Just checking on our main listing system for indecent assault. And I took that test as following your suggestion. When? When you'd emailed me earlier. Um, so using terms or words like that can be useful, but indecent assault can certainly be perpetrated by a man against a woman. So it's not necessarily [00:23:30] a rainbow matter. And it's not necessarily relating to the two men having having sex together, although it may be, um, but certainly if you're doing research, you would want to get as broad a set of search terms. Um, so I wrote out a small list, and I printed out rather a list here of the records that we have listed with the word homosexual [00:24:00] in them. And surprisingly, there's only 81 in all our millions of records, only 81. So a lot of them are about homosexual law reform. Um, and most of them are relatively recent. Um, the oldest one of the oldest ones here, for example, is, um, there's a 1930 to 1973 record, uh, medical treatment and services medical special treatment for homosexual, [00:24:30] uh, prisoners. And this is for Justice Department. Now that is a restricted record. It is publicly listed. There's no restriction on the listing of that in public, but it's quite likely that that that contains the names of individuals. So that is a restricted record. And that would need approvals before that could be made available to a researcher. Um, [00:25:00] we have, uh, indecent publications. Um, for example, Doubtful Publication Society and the homosexual Budgie Westwood. So that's been brought to the attention of customs. So that brings us into another whole field of control of our lives through through censorship, for example. And there are a number of censorship related records that we hold that can be quite useful in examining that way in which we had to interact with the state [00:25:30] and the state impinged on our lives through the decades. I did another search simply searching for the word, um, lesbian in the titles of records. Um, and here there were only 44 records. So again, mostly fairly recent and very much to do with the rep. Uh, the writing of, uh, reports applications, uh, for funding [00:26:00] for women's suffrage year, Uh, projects, for example, Um, and so on. So one does have to be fairly broad. And rather than just the really obvious keyword searches, does the archive retrospectively go back and tag records? If it becomes known that this person was homosexual even though they wouldn't necessarily use homosexual back then Yeah. No, we don't. We don't have [00:26:30] a tagging facility on our current listing system. Um, it was used for a short while on another set of records we had on a separate system, but it did not progress. So that idea of tagging is not is not in use at the moment. There is a There is a facility for adding short notes so that if a researcher wanted to let us know that something warranted [00:27:00] a note, we could add a note. But that's only available for staff members to activate. And we would have to be let Nose and some institutions around the world have public tagging and public note making. We don't have that currently. So if we go back to the example of the doctor in World War One, if we didn't know she was in a relationship with another woman, how would we? How would we know she was possibly [00:27:30] a lesbian? We wouldn't. Um this is one of the factors at work in our holdings that things come to light through use, um, and and people searching, possibly searching for something else entirely and coming across records that that suddenly shine light on an individual's life. And we say, Ah, there's something we couldn't have found out simply by the listings. [00:28:00] We might come across them, for example. Uh, if there is some kind of, as it were de facto cross referencing for something like, uh from papers past, for example, um, recently we had a researcher contact us, um, to ask for a copy of an individual's coroner's inquest file that is open. Uh, and the person doing the research [00:28:30] had been on, uh, papers passed and discovered that this individual had lived her life all her adult life as a woman but had been born a boy and lived the first several years of her life as a male child. And then sometime in her teens, she took women's clothing, moved well away from where she was brought up and reinvented her public self as [00:29:00] a woman. So that became, um, came to light because this person had found reference to that, actually, in a truth article. Not surprisingly, it's the sort of thing that, um, appallingly truth, uh, headlined when the when the matter became, uh, public. Uh, in 1946 truths Headline has kept a grotesque secret for 41 years. Um, and it only [00:29:30] became public knowledge, uh, that she had been born a boy and lived her life mostly as a woman. After she died, she died very suddenly, and it was the coroner. It was during the coronial inquiry that it became public knowledge that, uh, anatomically, uh, she was a man and it and it was kind of scandalous. It was a terrible event and the newspapers probably loved it. Um, [00:30:00] but to read the coronial inquest now is actually very poignant. Um, she had married and so to read the statement from her husband and they had been together for many decades and his statements, I would take them with a sprain of salt. He says he didn't know at the time, and they did not live together and sleep together as man and wife once he found out. We don't know now [00:30:30] at this point, whether that was the case. But there is a sadness about the story I personally feel in that because of the stigma associated, um, she had to lead, lead her life so hidden that it only became public knowledge upon death. So that is an instance of a of a another source leading the research to records we hold. And what a quandary, Because on one hand, I'm thinking of the truth. What a what a nasty [00:31:00] little newspaper. But unless you had that newspaper and that article and that headline, you may never have come across the story. Exactly. Exactly. And and truth is one of those resources that people, particularly for family history purposes we'll find out a great deal because there are a lot of things happening and always are a lot of things happening in families that are not passed down generation to generation. Whereas in this at this time, truth was reporting [00:31:30] things such as divorces and they can be it can be a very useful source for people, uh, to to find information about past members of family or other people where it was not talked about. So truth can be a very useful entry into prohibited histories and purposefully consciously forgotten histories. Um, one place, um, where you [00:32:00] will find very public histories is where that kind of information becomes very public and Amy Bock being an example of of someone whose life is thrown wide open to public examination. Um, and we have a few records regarding Amy Bock. Um, particularly I have here on the table photographs. Now, this is a really good example of a record that has survived from the most unlikely source [00:32:30] it survived. The photograph has survived because someone took her photograph and then applied for copyright applications. The copyright of the photograph So we have. The record is only about Amy Bock, because there was public interest in her and the fact that she lived and dressed as a man. And then someone saw that there was a pound to be made there. And so I photographed her and and and got copyright over the photograph. [00:33:00] So that's a fairly good example of a fairly obscure source, but nevertheless a wonderfully valuable source. If we want to see photographs of Amy Bock and can you just describe, um, Amy Bock's story like What kind of era was she in now? Amy Bock. I was very early 20th century, Um, I have the record 1909 is the year in which the application for copyright was made. Um, I don't [00:33:30] know her life in detail, but she lived, and I'm in a bit of a quandary here as to say she or he, because she is always known as Amy. Although lived under a number of male persona with a number of male personas and whether she identified as a man, she certainly identified as a man publicly, um, ran into trouble with the law on a number of occasions as a fraudster. [00:34:00] Um, and so the courts were told, fraudulently married a young woman. Um, And then the young woman found out that her new husband was, in fact, biologically a woman. And and this hit the news that the marriage was dissolved by the state. It was It's personally. I find it interesting that partly her story, but also the ongoing interest [00:34:30] in her story right up until the 19 seventies. Um, her story is still told, for example, in New Zealand heritage magazines that came out. It's the first time I ever saw a photograph of Amy Bock was 70 years, or more than 70 years after the big events where she became. It's not as if she is personally, um, I would say, a historically significant individual and what she did. Maybe it's more to do with the set of [00:35:00] anxieties her life unleashed or brought to light with the New Zealand society. That there was this discomfort, uh, about a woman living her life as a man. Uh, and also perhaps it illustrates her life. She maybe felt that she had no options other than to live by certain fraudulent means financially fraudulent. For example, um because other options were closed [00:35:30] to her. So those those are some of the interesting things that arise out of her her life and and what we know of her life now, the image that was, um, asked to be copyright is that the one that, um subsequently made was made into a postcard. Uh, no. This is a slightly different one, I think, from what you may be familiar with, but, um, we'll have a look here. I think that [00:36:00] might be the one that it's a lovely portrait of a of a gentleman sitting with a neat haircut that probably would sit quite well in in a lot of coffee lounges in town at the moment. Um, with a high collar again, um, double, um, waistcoat, um, wearing a medal of some sort that I can't quite make out what it is. So and that was dated. [00:36:30] Uh, this this application is 1909. Now, I don't know whether you want me to speak about other kinds of photos. I know that, um, I don't want to overshadow our discussion about photographs, but they are often, um very interesting. Interesting ways in which to to get into a story or there are clues and photos that were not apparent at the time of the making of the photo. [00:37:00] Um, for example, we have an album here, official photographs of the second New Zealand Expeditionary Force in the Pacific. So we're talking about the latter part of the 19 forties, Um, when New Zealand forces are in the Pacific. And this album here, um, is a dated August and September 1943. Now, this is another example of [00:37:30] a history that's sitting here and you would not know to look in this small photo album. Uh, unless you had an inkling to have a look and you'll see lots of photos of men in uniform, uh, at work, um, swimming, Um, in the Pacific. More photos of officers, for example. Uh, and so on various army activities in the Pacific. And, of course, one of the activities [00:38:00] is drag these wonderful photographs of of performers, um, soldiers, um, in the field, uh, up in the Pacific And this performer here and she's really damn glamorous goes by the extraordinary name of Marlena Heat rash. Uh, I It's a name that will live forever, I reckon. Marlena die. Uh, might be quite [00:38:30] pleased to be remembered as Melena. Heat rash. Um, we have a number of other performers, uh, drag performers who were, uh, getting together to put on musical entertainment, Uh, for the rest of the troops, Uh, while they're out in the Pacific, in Bougainville and other places. Um, we have someone here. Perhaps. I think he's looking rather a little bit more like, um, we're looking a little Latin, isn't he? The Carmen Miranda? [00:39:00] Maybe, Um oh, no. Her name here is Minnie from Trinidad. OK, so I'm I don't know the details of this, but I understand that some of these guys doing, um, getting into drag performance at this time went on to full full careers. Um, to to a lesser degree, I think in New Zealand and more in Sydney. So what is it like when you're you're going through albums [00:39:30] and you suddenly come across these kind of bread crumbs, these remnants of of kind of histories? It's a buzz. It's really great. It's I think I mentioned earlier. There are a golden tree. There are treasures sitting within our holdings, and you don't know when you're going to come across them. It's not only a buzz in terms of the immediate thing that you're holding, but also the fact that they may well be a trail to further records. So [00:40:00] once having seen these photos and the named performers and their non drag names their names as soldiers, then it would actually open up the opportunity for a researcher to say, Well, who was this person? Where did he live? What happened after the war? For example, Um, did he go back into civilian life and live no more and drag? Or did he go into [00:40:30] what? Now we would call a queer lifestyle. We don't know. And but these are ways of examining that If there's a little little trail a little, um uh, a few crumbs here, as you said to to lead you on the path of doing research. Yeah, another really interesting set of records we have. And we go right back, perhaps to the beginning of what we're talking about in in our communities. Uh, dealings with the law [00:41:00] are police records now, generally speaking, they are restricted for 100 years. You can get permissions from the New Zealand police to access those and you provide them with your reasons. And there may be conditions placed upon your use of the information, but, um, New Zealand police gazettes are open earlier than that. And the police gazettes do hold some wonderful information. Um, and we do have, for example, here [00:41:30] this will take me just a moment to open this one up, but a police gazette, and it's from 1920. And this holds information in here, including a photograph again, um, of Charles Mackay or of Charles McKay. Now, if my memory serves me well, he was, uh, had been mayor [00:42:00] of, uh, or Wanganui, as it was known to many at that time and was charged with attempted murder. He was homosexual. He was a married man. And there is a long story about, um, the circumstances of that, uh, attempted murder. Um, why, why it occurred? The consequences for him. Um, and indeed, the consequences [00:42:30] for the city. Um, so there's a little remnant of that story sitting in here. Uh, that would give you a lead in to other police records. That might be quite valuable for your record, Uh, for your research. Um, And what would What was the police because it used for the police. Gazettes were are a published work, Although not made available to the general public, they came out [00:43:00] on a fairly frequent basis, uh, and were sent out to every police station in the country. And I have a suspicion, also to every customs house so that the local police and customs officers had a record of what was going on in the rest of the country in terms of police business, it might have photos, um, of people who were wanted. It would certainly have information about people [00:43:30] who had been charged and found guilty. It would have information about recently released prisoners so that a local copper wouldn't go hunting down or following up someone who was legitimately on the streets. So there was AAA frequent, uh, information coming out out about so and so is released from jail, but it will have information about how long they've been there and what the charge was, and so on. So the police gazettes can be quite, uh, succinct [00:44:00] in the records they hold, but but have a really nice set of detail there, uh, about individuals either wanted or currently under arrest or recently released and so on so that they are a wonderful resource. They've they've only just been, um, not all of them, but many of them being digitised and can be viewed online. So they're a great resource. One of the other sets of records. [00:44:30] I know that there was some interest in as to whether they held information to, uh, Rainbow researchers and researchers in our into our lives and our community lives of the first World War Military service records. These have all been digitised and put online. I'm not aware of there being any specific references. If there were, I think [00:45:00] generally it might only show up. If it did exist, it would probably show up in court martial type records because I think if there might be inferences, you might be able to get inferences of of a man nominating as his best as the next of kin. Another man who is simply, uh, categorised as friend. Certainly that wouldn't always be [00:45:30] the case that they were lovers. But if you were being sent overseas, then maybe you you might nominate. If you had a male lover and you were a man going overseas, you might nominate your lover as your next of kin. So there might be ways of reading those those records with an open mind and and to see whether they might lead you to further investigation and further results. But that would have to be done very carefully. I think with those records, you wouldn't want to make too many assumptions about the nature [00:46:00] of relationships. There would have been many men going overseas who had no family, for example, in New Zealand. Um, and therefore, somebody did nominate another good male friend. So how that would work? One would have to kind of think about how you are interpreting that information. Unless I guess you came from the standpoint that everyone's homosexual until proven otherwise. Well, true enough. True enough. Yes. Yeah, [00:46:30] Yes. I can't argue with that one. I can't argue with that one. I think there would be a fair number of records in there that would be recording the lives and experiences of men who who enjoyed the loving and sexual company of other men. Their lives would be recorded in first World War Service records, but not that aspect of their lives. So they may well be useful for, uh, enlarging [00:47:00] the picture of a known individual you might be researching. Yeah, just, uh, going back to the political records. And we were talking about, um how things tabled in Parliament often come to archives. New Zealand. What about, um, personal correspondence to members of parliament? So, for instance, uh, Fran Wilde had quite a few papers that were destroyed in a Bernie storage unit. Wouldn't they have come to somewhere like archives [00:47:30] New Zealand? Or is there a difference between personal papers? And yes, there is. And and, um, my understanding of this is that under the act that we operate under section 42 of the act does have some stipulations about which of those records come to us or are eligible to come to us, which we may take in. And generally they only apply to ministers papers. Um, So if you are not a minister, [00:48:00] then but you are an MP. Then your papers remain yours. So that's your business and your relationship with your electorate. Your relationship with the broader community, your relationship with the parliament and your party. Uh, if you are a member of a party so that those records do not have to come to us. Um, ministers papers, Yes, they may come to us, but not necessarily. [00:48:30] And it's a matter of working through the various ways in which that section of the act can be applied as to whether we would want to take in those that minister's papers or not. Certainly some ministers papers don't come to us. They will go to other repositories. So our holdings, for example, of prime ministerial papers is quite patchy in that some prime ministers have lodged their papers with other institutions. Um, [00:49:00] for whatever reason. And that's her or his decision to make, um, But we do have some significant collections, and then others may have part of their collection. They hold their papers with us, and part have gone elsewhere. So that's that's a quite a complex matter that that's determined when the negotiations occur, Uh, between a minister or former minister and or [00:49:30] his or her estate, for example, uh, and who? Whoever might be the recipient of those papers. So if you were researching a minister's a former minister's papers, it would be a good idea to have a fairly broad understanding of where they may have gone. They may have come here to archives. New Zealand. They may have remained with the family. They may have gone to Alexander Turnbull, for example. They may have gone to a university library. [00:50:00] There are all sorts of places that would be options that you'd have to consider when doing your research. Which leads perfectly into the question about how does one go about searching archives? New Zealand? Well, research here is available to absolutely anyone. Um, assuming that any given record that you're interested is unrestricted, that it is open. You can simply come into the office that holds that record. And [00:50:30] the majority of the records are held here in the Wellington office. If you're not already registered with us, you register with us. It takes about four minutes. It's a bit like getting a library card. All you need to bring with you is some photo ID. Most people bring in their driver's licence or a passport. Uh, you can bring in, um, student ID and various other forms of ID. We sign you up, we give you a card. Uh, and then you can request items to be brought to you in the reading room. [00:51:00] You may need some assistance in working your way through the finding aids that we have the various databases. Um, they're not necessarily the easiest databases to work with. They are not, strictly speaking, catalogues like a library catalogue. They are listing systems. So, um, but we have staff here always to assist people doing that research. It's best to bear in mind that although the [00:51:30] majority of the records are here in the Wellington office, some records are held locally in Auckland, Christchurch or Dunedin. And that particularly applies to some records, such as a court records. Um, so if you're wanting to look at records coming out of, for example, the Rotorua Supreme Court or Hamilton, Auckland or Tahou District Court, all those kinds of records you would be going to our Auckland office and [00:52:00] then similarly, for those courts of, uh of Canterbury and Westland would be in the, uh Christchurch office and Dunedin office holding the Otago and Southland Court records. So there is some divvying up in that sense of records being held locally. Um, but that's the approach is quite straightforward, and it's not limited to some. As some instances, you'll find around the world where you have to be a bona fide day researcher. [00:52:30] No, no, not here. You just are an interested person who wants to come in and you can be a professional researcher. You can be a secondary school student doing your your school assignments. It makes no difference to us in terms of the services we provide. You can ring us. Um, I don't have the phone number to hand, but it's better if you're wanting to contact the Wellington office to email. If you're wanting to make first contact to discuss your research [00:53:00] needs, then you can always just reach us at research dot archives at DIA dot gov T dot NZ. And we will take that your inquiry and, uh, get back to you offering whatever advice we did you know, seems appropriate at the time. It may be that we say Well, yes, we've got plenty of stuff here. Come on in and get rid. Bring your ID. Bring a camera. We [00:53:30] encourage people to bring their own cameras. About 98% of the records we hold we can permit or we indeed encourage people to take their own photographs. So bring a camera. Bring your ID and and begin your research. And I do like, uh, the the the point you made a bit earlier about, um, say looking at the truth to get, uh, a kind of a bread crumb or the start of a trail Because I'm thinking that if you go to archives, New Zealand just say I want to see something [00:54:00] about homosexuality. I don't know the specifics. It must be very hard to actually kind of narrow it down. So, actually, if you've got a newspaper article that you can go OK 1942 January This is the name? Yeah, uh, newspaper articles. Um, references given in published works are great. So if you are reading a published book or a report monograph of some sort [00:54:30] and it gives reference to an archives New Zealand item, they can be incredibly useful. If you're starting out from absolute scratch, then it's a very good idea to see what's out there in the published world. Someone's already more than likely done at least some of this research before. And if if they are writing in a in a manner, uh, where they're wanting that information to be out there available, then hopefully, they've given their references. Uh, and they can be incredibly useful [00:55:00] for speeding your research up and helping you focus more precisely on what you want to research and how you can get to where you want to be. Um, other other ways of, uh, focusing your research or getting those lead ins will be simply to speak with other people who may have, uh, undertaken the research as well as publish books and so on. There may well be, uh, articles and other fairly popular, uh, journals or in [00:55:30] academic journals and so on. So they're all worth having a look at as well. Um, going online. Having a look online as well as hard copy is can be really useful. Yeah, In your time at archives New Zealand, what has been the, uh, most thrilling or most significant kind of rainbow? Uh, discovery? You've come across Not thrilling, but, um, poignant, I think is the one we mentioned earlier [00:56:00] this this one, this this small record coming from the coroner's office about someone who lived her life, um, and looped her life in a way that presumably was satisfactory to her. And despite the constraints placed on her life in New Zealand in the 19 twenties and thirties and forties. I find that a very, very poignant story and the story of [00:56:30] the probable difficulty of her husband, um after it was discovered, that he had married someone who had been been a boy and lived, lived childhood and early adolescence as a boy before changing identity. Um, although not changing physical nature, I found that a very poignant story that that there's a reality and a personal touch in there. Um, [00:57:00] the surviving partner speaks in that record of saying to the coroner and to the police, This is the day I've been dreading so that he had always worried, um, that the life that they had led would would perhaps be ridiculed would certainly be held out, held up to public [00:57:30] gaze in a way that he certainly didn't want to be gazed at. Um, and I think that's a powerful statement about many people's lives and those earlier generations who just wanted to live their lives in love and and peace within community and stigma prevented them doing so or prevented them living it outwardly and openly. So that's the That's the one [00:58:00] I'll nominate for your question. I am quite touched by their story.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089764
TITLE: Kathy Baldock
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VOICES: Kathy Baldock
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; Alan Chambers; Alliance Defending Freedom; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australian Christian Lobby; Australians for Equality; Bible; Christianity; Conservative Christianity; Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM); Donald Trump; Equal Rights Amendment (USA); Evangelical Christianity; Exodus International; Focus on the Family; Gay Christian Network; God; God and the Gay Christian (book); Hillary Clinton; Houston; Kathy Baldock; Liberty Counsel; Louisa Wall; Matthew Vines; Mormonism; New York City; PFLAG (USA); Salvation Army; Supreme Court of the United States; Sydney; The Family Research Council; The Reformation Project; The Trevor Project; United Families International; United Nations; United States of America; Wellington; World Congress of Families (2013); activism; adoption; adultery; alcohol; behaviour modification; blogs; born again (Christianity); canyonwalkerconnections. com; church; civil rights; complementarianism; conservative; conversion / reparative therapy; divorce; down-low; drugs; education; equality; faith; family; feminism; gay; gender identity; hate; hate speech; history; home school; honour-shame culture; human rights; justice; lesbian; love; lust; marriage; marriage equality; mental health; misogyny; mixed-orientation marriage; parents; patriarchal system; peace; people of colour; plebiscite; politics; protest; religion; reproductive rights; scripture; sexual orientation; shame; stigma; straight; support; theology; tradition; tramping; women; youth
DATE: 25 September 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: What the religious community and the conservative politicians did in the late 19 seventies, early 19 eighties in the United States. Uh, we're seeing it now in the elections, this merger of religion and politics and how strong it's become and that merger I often call it an unholy marriage. That merger of religion and politics has poisoned both. So the church has has used the LGBT community as a wedge [00:00:30] to control people with fear and power. And politics has used LGBT people as a wedge to get voters conservative voters into the voting booths. And it worked. And it's worked for four decades. It's actually still working in our current trump, uh, Clinton election. And but what we also see is the effects that, um, slowly progressive Christians [00:01:00] are starting to understand that there's another way to see Scripture. So that hold that has been so prominent, particularly in the nineties and the early two thousands is starting to lose its grip and power in the United States. So those groups of conservative politicians and lobbyists and Christians have gone to other countries, so they've gone to the Eastern bloc European nations into the Serb nations. The Serbian nations over there. [00:01:30] They've gone into, um, absolutely Africa, uh, South America. And we started exporting our products, our hate products into both Australia and New Zealand and the UK in the early two thousands. We can see it in the elections of 2004 in Australia, our conservative lobbyist started to inform Australian [00:02:00] politicians of how to motivate those conservative voters. So what's going on in Australia right now? And in in opposing marriage equality? Some of that opposition and the the the points of objection have absolutely been informed by Americans. So can you give me some examples of what people are doing? Well, the Family Research Council is a very big lobby group. It's probably one of our most prominent, and they have legal arms that [00:02:30] are associated with them. Liberty Council, et cetera. They're the ones that if you follow American politics. When marriage equality passed in the United States and there were county registrars that refused to issue licence to same sex couples, people like Liberty Council and Alliance defending freedom came in for free and supported those those public officials that would not extend those licences to same sex couples, and [00:03:00] they are very strong, uh, legal arms behind some of these Christian right lobby groups. So Family Research Council is one of the strongest focus on the family is also in there. And there were absolutely meetings in 2004 between Family Research Council and, uh, Australian Christian lobby to of how to when they introduce the restrictions on marriage of one man and one woman to the Australian [00:03:30] Constitution, Family Research Council advised them, Since Australia is more of a secular nation to perhaps remove some of the religious language that absolutely works in the United States and pose it as more of a traditional family, this is the way family looks. Uh, um, safe schools, all of those, the the the language that is saying the same thing. But they've removed [00:04:00] the Christian out of it. And they did advise the Australian Christian lobby of how how to position those objections to, uh, extending marriage equality to same sex couples. So we have been here and in 2013, when Sydney hosted the World Congress of Families that invited hundreds and hundreds of conservative Christians and politician merges into Australia, [00:04:30] and they they had an impact as well, so it's not working particularly well in the United States. But some of those groups then start to export it. There's a very active group within the United Nations called United Families International, and they're based in in, uh, Phoenix, Arizona, and they're very under the radar. But what they do is they go into the UN and they've been working there for 15 years now. And they help in air quotes [00:05:00] countries to preserve the their version of the traditional view of marriage to moderate women's reproductive rights, to watch how other countries deal with gender identity issues and sexual orientation. And they are. They are American and they are more men based. They're not sanctioned by the Mormon church. But all the leadership are Mormon, and they're very secretive, and they're hard [00:05:30] to get a hold of unless you know what you're looking for. I mean, if you go to their website, it's just pictures of beautiful families together. But when you dig in there into the papers, there's some destructive stuff, and even Family Research Council the same thing. You can go and look at other countries that are opposing marriage equality, and you can look at the position papers that are supposedly put out by their local organisations, and it's the same points. It's the same footnotes [00:06:00] as what Americans have tried and exported and used and has been successful. So a plebiscite has just been announced in Australia and you, you've been to Australia recently. What is the mood? What is the feeling over in Australia at the moment? What I'm hearing, my friends say, and the media and other pastors is they're incredibly concerned about the effect of lifting this, this lid on the potentiality of hate speech [00:06:30] from the Australian Christian lobby and the effects that may have on LGBT youth in particular. Unlike the United States, where we have the Trevor Project, which takes care of LGBT youth. So there's a hotline that's been set up for. I mean, I don't know the exact year, but it seems to me like they've been around for eight or nine years, and it is a is a dedicated hotline for LGBT youth, and so kids can call when they're suffering mental health issues [00:07:00] or, um, suicide. Suicidal I and Australia doesn't have that. I think theirs is called Lifeline and but it's not set aside to understand the particular needs of LGBT youth. And when that lid comes off of what people can say in Objection the Australian Christian lobby family first, all of those groups will start pumping out this information that's not science [00:07:30] based. It's not based. Uh, it doesn't have the support of mental health professionals. It doesn't have the support of medical health professionals. They'll just start speaking their lies. And it's an absolute. It's a level of ignorance that will be paid for by the public, and it's ignorance that can be easily offset if they would just listen to somebody else. But they don't. When I was in Australia, [00:08:00] one of my friends offered to take me up to Canberra for the day. So I went up to Canberra and I went to the offices of the Australian Christian lobby, and I've done this so many times in the United States. I'm pretty well known for it because I can pass as you know what I actually am, uh, evangelical Christian. I home schooled my Children. I'm of that ilk. So I go in as this little bubble of energy and ask for information and then, uh, we stood outside with protest signs, and so [00:08:30] I got to go into their offices and they're actually Oh, my goodness. The day before, I had been in the offices of Australians for equality. And then the very next day I was in Australian Christian lobby and just the vibe that's given off of the two. You go into Australian Christian lobby, and it's like going into, uh, a shop that used to make rubber stamps, you know? And they're trying to find their way that that we no longer use the paid [00:09:00] and the received stamps that used to be so prominent in offices. And they just seem to have that vibe of they're just from 20 years ago and they can't find their way and they're trying to. They're banding together in this old nostalgia and not listening to the outside and, um, II. I wish the politicians in Australia would just do the day job that they've been paid [00:09:30] to do and elected to do and just vote their conscience because over 70% of the country is for marriage equality. And when Americans got marriage equality, of course, it came through the Supreme Court But it was slightly above 50% of Americans that supported a marriage equality when we got it. And Australia is so far ahead of us in in numbers, [00:10:00] and Australia is so much better at protection of sexual orientation and gender identity that it to an outsider, it appears ridiculous that a small group of conservatives have controlled this human rights conversation. It it doesn't make sense. But having done so much work on history and understanding how small groups of power can often dictate conversations, [00:10:30] I get that. But it shouldn't be. So. What, then, is the concern to have a plebiscite or referendum? If there is, say, 70% in favour of marriage equality, Why why is it a concern to to have a referendum rather than a vote? Well, I know that the side that doesn't want the plebiscite is concerned because it's not binding and because it's not binding and there's an expensive money thrown at it that [00:11:00] will just give people a another view of a public opinion. They've already got the public opinion, and the big negative is the words that are gonna come out. The posters, the billboards, you know, a kid riding down the street on the bus, looking up at the billboard day after day on his school route, seeing how disgusting he is and how he's an abomination to God and how he doesn't have access to equal equal protections and rights. And, [00:11:30] you know, families don't look like they include him. And it it's just that day to day destruction, um, people that were supporting a plebiscite even just a few months ago. They don't appear to be supporting the plebiscite now. Money, expense time. That's the other thing is so they they they find out the numbers and it still doesn't mandate that the politicians [00:12:00] do anything immediately and they could just call for a vote. But you know, the way party politics works, probably people are saying not gonna happen until the change in government. And it's It's shocking that 21 countries can already have marriage equality. When I was coming over here from the States and I said to my friends, I'm going over for a month to speak in Australia, basically around the issue of marriage equality, [00:12:30] there was not one person I spoke to that that that knew Australia didn't have marriage equality. They all assumed Australia had it but good on New Zealand that you had it. I had breakfast the other day with Louisa Wall and what a fabulous woman. And what I was very intrigued by was people will say, Of course, she proposed marriage equality because she's [00:13:00] a lesbian and in a relationship and would want to get married to her partner. But that was not her motivation. I. I pick at these things. I can hear what people are saying. And her motivation came from her father, who taught her what justice and equality and fairness look like. And that's what she is motivated by. And people sometimes do things because of justice and fairness and equality. I mean, I'm a straight evangelical Christian. I have two Children who are 28 [00:13:30] and 30 adults. I would know I'd be the easiest mother on the planet to come out to. My kids are straight, but I do the work I do because it's right, my faith informs me, and, uh pushes me forward passionately. My faith doesn't stand in the way of me wanting to fight for equality for others, and Louisa had has the same passion. She's, uh New Zealand is so fortunate to have this wonderful woman working [00:14:00] on Ju justice issues. And she's moving on to other justice issues, too. She's she's not done great, great representative. She is. Another group that you've met with in New Zealand has been the Salvation Army. The Salvation Army and Rainbow Communities have not always kind of got on that. Well, I didn't I didn't know that history until I got here. My host that I've known for eight years through conferences in the United States is [00:14:30] part of the Salvation Army leadership here. And so the first night that I came to Wellington, I did a three hour teaching to 50 Salvation Army officers and leaders that were selected. They were hand picked to come to my presentation because what I teach is I call it untangling the mess. And it looks at this timeline and foundation of human sexuality, the roles between men and women, of dominance and submission, politics, psychoanalysis, [00:15:00] uh, and religion. And once I place this incredibly strong foundation, then I go back, and I look at the scriptures that have that's that refer to same sex behaviour in context. So this group was specifically picked because they are leaning towards inclusion. And the reception I got was spectacular, very appreciative, so appreciative that I was invited to come back to the headquarters the next [00:15:30] day and speak to four more leaders. And what I am hearing from them and from my friend, is that the Salvation Army is trying to I don't know if I want to say, Turn the ship. They want to be who they envision themselves to be as a place that's welcoming and safe for all and the problems from 1985 that the Salvation [00:16:00] Army when they got involved in, um, I don't know if you call them the sodomy laws or the homosexuality laws. When they strongly worked against the LGBT community going door to door, that's had a long term effect and they know it and they're trying to recover. First of all, I think all of them would say that everyone is welcome, but sometimes that's code for saying you're welcome, but you have to keep a lid on it or you have to change. What [00:16:30] I'm hearing from the leadership is they're really grappling with understanding, sexual orientation and gender identity and it's genuine. They're genuinely struggling to repair the damage of the past, but they're also trying to to work gently with their their people, to educate and to have conversations. [00:17:00] I see them as a group that wants to openly have these cons. Well, maybe not openly yet, but have these conversations of a broader, more gracious inclusion, and they're aware that they need education. So I applaud the fact that they invited me in because I'm very well known as an activist in the United States within Christian communities, and it's pretty brave when people ask me to come in. And for someone that has the reputation of conservative and [00:17:30] anti gay that Salvation Army has had. This was a good move on their part, and I also see that there could be a time in future where I know they're gonna invite me back. But I would like them to invite me back in a broader conference context so that I can teach, take the heat, take the weight of it, just have somebody say, let's just listen to her because when people hear the bigger teaching that I do, [00:18:00] it's very compelling because it's well researched, and it I don't discount any Scriptures. I just put them in context. So Salvation Army knows and is aware when, in a smaller conference in an outlying area, a kid in a youth group will ask a question about being gay. And when a youth leader may, from the old context their own understanding, slam down on that kid [00:18:30] and say, homosexuality is a sin. Salvation Army headquarters leaders hear about that and they go in and they mediate and they moderate and they speak to those leaders when they hear that stuff is going on. Now they deal with it, and that should be encouraging. So what got you to this point? What got you to be, um, touring the world? Being an educator? Facilitator? What? What is your story? So in in 2001, [00:19:00] I was going through a divorce, and I'm I would have considered myself Orthodox Christian, as I said, evangelical. But my marriage was falling apart, and that's very shaming for a conservative evangelical home. Schooling mom very shaming, and I don't mean to position myself as some stay at home home school. Mom, I helped run a business. I have an engineering degree. I'm I'm very well educated, but it was It was just [00:19:30] I was in that Christian bubble and I had never had any gay person in my life. This is in my mid forties, Come out to me and say I am gay, which is when you put it in context before 2000. That would be understandable, especially if you were hanging out in evangelical bubbles. So as my marriage started to fall apart in order to deal with it appropriately because my husband had committed adultery and I didn't want to fall into that, [00:20:00] I didn't want to do revenge. Adultery. I didn't want to do anything inappropriate. I wanted to do the right stuff. My kids were 14 and 15, and I decided to expend my mental energy by taking an Italian class and my physical energy by hiking every day. And in my Italian class, I was paired up with the only gay man in the class for the semester, and in hiking I there was a woman that was hiking just as much as me in the same [00:20:30] paces, and, you know, as it would be, she is a lesbian. So she's a totally unlike me. Uh, at the time, she was agnostic, Hispanic, last name, woman of colour, Dark colour. Uh, and native American, she's coached, so couldn't be any more different than me. And in just a relationship with her, my ideas of what gay. And with Tom, too, That's her name is, and with Tom, my ideas of what it meant to be gay [00:21:00] were broken down because I could see people for the first time, and two major thoughts had to be destroyed. Um, they were experiencing love in their relationships, not lust as I had been told. And they knew they were gay or different or something from a very early age, which was not what I was told. So in just shutting my mouth, Um, and because at that time since my marriage was falling apart, I didn't have this [00:21:30] big, great thing to ex uh, export to them. That this is, you know, this is what's gonna change and improve your life because my life was falling apart. I never lost faith, but how can you export this great model of something when it's not even working for you? So in relationship, I got to be around lots of gay people, and suddenly my my circles were gay people. But still, for five years I didn't meet any people that said they were both gay and Christian, so I didn't have to engage [00:22:00] my own theology. And about five years later, just through a series of events reading an article on the front page of The New York Times about the gay Christian network, I saw that there was an organisation that existed that was gay and Christian, and those were two words I'd never put together. So I went to their conference as the first straight attendee in 2007. And in the beginning I was, uh, a A listener and a hearer and observing and trying to figure this out so that I could speak back to my tribe. And then the next few years [00:22:30] I was the encouraging mother because parents weren't showing up and then trying to engage my community, I realised that there were breakdowns in communication over scriptural passages because people would end it by saying, Well, that's your interpretation. That's my interpretation. So I had to try to find another way of communicating it, which ended up with the book. So for three years I sat and researched this book, and now I go and teach. So my my role has greatly changed. But [00:23:00] I see what I'm doing as very productive because I'm seeing both LGBT people looking at this and saying, Wait a minute. This was never the intention of the Bible. I see LGBT people learning their own history, which is kind of funny because I'm a evangelical straight person and I'm teaching history and, um, or LGBT history. And then I'm also helping to, um, inform, educate, open the minds of undermine the [00:23:30] myth of straight people that have had no consideration of equality within the church. And I work with pastors behind the scenes a lot behind the scenes because if a pastor comes out as affirming even in the United States right now, uh, evangelical pastor comes out as affirming, fully inclusive, no difference between heterosexual and homosexual members of their congregation, they are still losing. It's a shocking number between 2080% of their congregation within 2 [00:24:00] to 4 months, so education has to happen, so it's not we're not gonna get there. Churches are not gonna become more safer and more inclusive with simply talking about Bible verses. It's gonna take number one relationships and education and what has started to happen in the last four years that has had a great amount of impact. Our parents, um, standing up for their Children. This wouldn't was not seen four [00:24:30] years ago. In churches, we've always had P flag. I imagine you have a version of P flag but P flag even in 2010, P flag wouldn't engage the religious community. When I went and spoke at their national conference in 2010, I was their first speaker of faith. So they they were not trying to engage the people that had done so much damage either. But now P flag is very does, uh, welcome, uh, Christian [00:25:00] parents of LGBT youth. But there's the they're getting motivated by organisations like the Gay Christian Network, The conference last year, which was about 1500 people in Houston. About 10% of those people are parents, so parents are in every denomination. You know, most congregations, every state, and they're speaking up for their Children and this is a dynamic that's adding to this, uh, organic movement [00:25:30] within grassroots movement within churches. So, you know, just imagine all of this stuff happening once LGBT Christians standing firm and saying, No, we wanna have this conversation. Parents doing the same education coming from really excellent resources outside the church, people coming into the church to have private conversations, pastors knowing that they have to engage this conversation on some level, and they're seeking out information [00:26:00] and and cultural acceptance of LGBT people. All these things are working together to create, um, an imperative for pastors to to risk looking at a different interpretation, another point of view, and it although it's a huge risk. I also believe that most of the people that are called to be pastors have the heart of a pastor [00:26:30] and want to do what's right by people. But it is still a huge risk for pastors to say. I am going to welcome all there's a financial risk which some people may discount. But if you're a pastor of a church that has a mortgage and maybe five other pastors on staff and you're responsible for those pastors livelihoods and maybe you're there and they're not your other, your other leaders are not there. [00:27:00] It's a big risk. So what I'm seeing that's working and we don't have a model yet, So I'm hoping we can come up with the You know, several of the leaders people that are working in this can come up with a model that works better. So there's not so many radical losses within, uh communities. But we know that it includes a pastor first laying a foundation of teaching grace and welcome to all people in his congregation, then creating [00:27:30] safe spaces for LGBT people within faith communities to start interacting with other people in the faith community and educating pastors and LGBT Christians within those communities of ever expanding circles of people that want to be in the conversation, so that instead of someone walking out of a church, not just with their money but that's a reality. But people staying in a church to possibly learn and change themselves. So it's [00:28:00] a big thing to shift. But I think within three years in the United States this will be a dominant motion and the tipping point will start to hit. I mean it all it takes for something to tip is 20% 4 and I can see those numbers ever increasing. Since 2004 and 2004, 13% of white evangelical Protestants were for same sex marriage, [00:28:30] marriage, equality and a study done just last month in, um, September of 2016. 34% of white evangelical Protestants, which are the most conservative people we have in the United States, are supportive of same sex marriage. That's a that's a big shift for the most conservative people you have. So marriage equality has added to that and all those other dynamics I just talked about. [00:29:00] So it's a ball that rolls. And once it goes, you know, sorry Australian Christian lobby like you can't recapture this one. This one's this. It's it's, it's moving and it's a seesaw. It's gonna tip. And there's no going back to the destructive, not traditional views of this for 45 years of, uh, dialogue and saying that the Bible says certain things does not a tradition make. I'd like to look at the 2000 years [00:29:30] of history of love and acceptance and equality and uh, inclusion before those last nasty 45 years being a straight person. Does that allow you different access to To churches, To to congregations? Yes, yes. And what kind of difference? So once so G BT Christians. I work closely with a young man named Matthew Vines. Matthew and [00:30:00] I are very close friends. I'm on the board of his his group called the Reformation Project. He's the author of God and the Gay Christian. Some people, he has great access. But there are those that think that Matthew only wants to have this conversation because he is indeed himself a gay Christian. So, of course, the fact that he's a gay Christian would not let him, they imagine, be open to what God says about issues. So people almost expect LGBT [00:30:30] Christians to be able to and want to fight for themselves. But when something disrupts the norm, So when someone comes along that disrupts what you expect in the normal pattern Um so here I am straight, I'm I'm 60. So I'm the age of most of the people I'm trying to communicate with and the fact that my kids are are straight also, and it it it people get curious as to, [00:31:00] you know, why do you care? Why is this an important issue to you? And when I talk about biblical justice, they they start to understand that. But what I'm really finding interesting and I have found interesting over the years is this is still at the core. This non acceptance of LGBT people in faith communities at the core is an issue of male female dominance. Male female roles in human sexuality. That's what it's all about. [00:31:30] The difference that, um, people want to persist and keep strong walls between genders. Because if the gender paradigm falls down, if the gender differences, the gender, uh, the gender identities fall away, then the paradigm of white heterosexual male dominance, patriarchy, gender hierarchy and churches fall apart. And if that falls apart, [00:32:00] then women are gonna have to be included because in conservative churches, women are still not allowed to be teachers, preachers and leaders. So when someone like me comes along and has better research than certainly a huge majority of the people, I'm trying to talk to it. It and I'm straight, and I apparently have no reason to do this. It's compelling in that. Why does she care? [00:32:30] Why does she keep going so I do get audience. And then there's this also interesting dynamic that people imagine that Well, people say I should talk to her and I'm gonna let her in because she's just a woman. What damage or what harm could she possibly do? I'll listen to her to say that I've listened to her and then I'll just move on and people don't imagine that I could be as challenging as I am. I mean, I. I smile a lot. [00:33:00] I'm pretty nice. And so it would be easy to let me in the door. And then once I get in the door, um, I ask I think the the the quality that I have is I ask I can hear where people's, um difficult points are the push points. And because I'm well educated on this and have had thousands of conversations, I've gotten to a point where I can ask really good questions [00:33:30] and I can ask questions that I know challenge someone to the core and then let them sit with it. I'm not, uh, aggressive. I'm not I mean, I'm I. I drive forward. Uh, I'm not certainly not a pushover, but I'm not an angry, aggressive mess. And, um, it's just a way of challenging pastors. And it works. It definitely works. And I'm seeing changes as fun to be part of it. Um, [00:34:00] because I see changes. But I also at the core of me, I am a Christian, and I think there is a lot of good if people want access to faith. I want people to have that access. I'm not a person that pushes my faith on anyone. But if people want access, I don't want any walls to that access anymore. I want just a level table to sit at, and I work to break down those walls. Do you find that? It's kind of, um, tiresome. [00:34:30] Are you? Are you getting the same arguments time and time again? In terms of these are the six passages that refer to same sex behaviour. These are the answers, you know, or or that whole thing of, um I hear what you're saying, but I just disagree with it. So get getting beyond the agree. Disagree? Yes, I hear the same objections all the time. I read the same objections all the time. And so what I do is I challenge people's thoughts behind those objections because [00:35:00] the theology that supports or they think support those objections, the theology and the history and the lack of putting those objections into context. It is so non academic and so sloppy. I was when I was in Sydney a week and a half ago. I went to a Sydney. Anglican churches are known as the most conservative churches in Australia, and I went to I actually went to two different Sydney Anglican [00:35:30] churches and just happened the night I went there that the pastor was speaking about marriage and how and then, of course, he had to talk about gender because marriage is, he says. You know, God says from the beginning, only a man and a woman, and the way he supported that it was This is my best word for it sloppy and non academic, because if when people try to engage marriage as posed by God, [00:36:00] you know, 2000 years ago, and when it was written about in Genesis 3400 years ago, it was written about all of those cultures where those words were written into Were cultures, ancient cultures of gender, hierarchy and patriarchy. There was no other way to imagine it. There was no other way to look at that. And they when they talk about it when they stand in 2016 and they read those verses written 3400, written about [00:36:30] 3400 years ago or 2000 years ago, they are not engaging any of the social history and understanding of human sexuality. Human sexuality. That's mostly happened in the last 100 years, but the social history of even marriage that's been happening since the beginning of the 18 hundreds. I have yet to read a book supporting traditional marriage from the other side, where the bibliography or the footnotes ever engage any books on the social [00:37:00] history of marriage at all. It's like these years of the difference. The roles between men and women and gender hierarchy and patriarchy have never happened. And I wanna say to them So if your spouse has cancer, do you go back to first century acts where they just said, When someone is sick, the elders of the church lay hands on them and pray for them? No, you've let what we've learned inform you of how to deal with your spouse and prolong their life. No, let's forget all of [00:37:30] that. Let's just go in. Let's get the people of the church and I'm not discounting prayer. Let's just get the elders of the church, Put some oil on your spouse's head and pray for healing and walk away. No, we we let what we've learned inform us about. We've let what we've learned about the difference in races, inform us, and we no longer have slavery in the United States. We have slavery around the world still, and we've let as much as our society is let. We're still not as equal as you are in New [00:38:00] Zealand, but we've let women rise above the restrictions that women supposedly are restricted by in the Bible. And we're in the same struggle that we've been with those where the Bible has been interpreted through the eyes of patriarchy and gender hierarchy and white supremacy. And this is just just the next issue where we have to say, Wait a minute, it's been written through those lenses, and we've [00:38:30] been interpreting through those lenses, but we're a more pluralistic society where equality has happened. I mean, even the Bible will tell us that in the end, there are no differences between genders. There are no differences between races, and Jesus said it himself. He said, Pray the kingdom of God come to he to earth. So we're supposed to pray for the things that we know will be. And there's no difference between genders and in the end, [00:39:00] in in in revelations in the In the Book of Revelations. But yet Christians are still trying to hold on to this patriarchal view that should be in church, so they'll use terms like complementarity and procreation. And these are new arguments against same sex marriage against anything other than a male female relationship. For instance, Sydney pastors speak [00:39:30] about complimentary as if it's been a tradition enshrined in Christianity since the beginning of time. And it was created in the late 19 eighties as a reaction to biblical feminism. Because when feminism hit worldwide in the sixties and seventies, well, not worldwide in the sixties and seventies, they were in at first trying to control women, so they couldn't say patriarch anymore. So they made up this lovely new word called complimentary [00:40:00] is so that all these pastors talk about it as if it's always been, and it's really only been talking about anatomical differences since the early 19 nineties that is not traditional Christianity, that is new, politically religious, power motivated interpretation that keeps the people in control or the people that want to be in control in control. [00:40:30] How do you think your faith has changed since, um, the the the the marriage break up in the early two thousands and your journey now with with the kind of LGBTI communities, I think I'm a better representation of Jesus. If you had asked me if I was a good Christian, then I would have said absolutely that I understood. You know, a lot of words in Greek and Hebrew, [00:41:00] and I led women's Bible studies, and I went to church every Sunday, and I would have told you that I was, you know, the top of the class. But now, 15 years later, I know my Christianity is not about how I perform. According to this imaginary checklist I had of what a Christian was because it was imaginary, it was what I was given. [00:41:30] Now my Christianity is what I try to do is to be a representative of who I read Jesus is, and once that that relationship between me and God is established. And in my view, in my theology I, I have that relationship established through Jesus to God. The next practising of my Christianity is supposed [00:42:00] to be, um, a horizontal expression of my Christianity. So it is. How do I treat others? Can other people see something good within me? But it's not even that motivation of Can you see what's in me so that you can be like me? That's not the motivation at all. The motivation is how do I effectively represent what my belief system is inside by treating others fairly and equally? [00:42:30] And I think my faith, my faith, my relationship with God is much stronger than it ever was in the days when I was doing the checklist. Because working in justice working in a faith movement is it's this cement that puts all of your beliefs into alignment, and it's always challenged and ever challenged, and other people get challenged and their their justice work. I think justice work [00:43:00] is Christian work should be justice work, and mine happens to be inclusion of LGBT people, other people, other Christians work within poverty or desperately needed in the United States. Right now, racism pastors need to be rising up in the United States, in particular over the issue of racism and faith communities and people of I don't wanna say real faith, because that's a judgement. But people of faith that [00:43:30] closely resembles what we would hope Jesus would be in terms of loving and embracing. All that kind of faith can change dialogues and social situations when people of faith who are driven and sometimes they're driven so hard that they don't back down when it gets difficult. When those people are driven to good justice, actions changes can be made. So I think I'm a much better person. [00:44:00] I I can. I can be in relationships with people that I probably could have never before because all of those barriers are down of putting, you know, assessing them according to a checklist, too, and then having a goal of doing something with them. Now I just try to treat people lovingly and and fairly and and how I know that God is in it and that it's good is [00:44:30] II. I experience joy and peace, so I really do live a life of, like, this internal joy and peace. I know I'm in alignment with. However, people would call that higher power. I'm in a pretty controversial area, but that joy and peace are really solidly in alignment with me and I I feel good and I'm calm and I just keep moving forward [00:45:00] in in your work. Do you get, um, harassed or threatened? Because I imagine it would be quite quite challenging. Yeah, uh, when I first. So I don't call myself a blogger anymore. But in 2000, I think and and seven or eight, I started blogging, and I blog under Canyon Walker. I write and blog under Canyon Walker connections dot com, but now it's turned into a resource site. But when I first started blogging, so in 4008, even in [00:45:30] the United States, people were straight. People were not having this conversation. Evangelicals were not supposed to have this conversation straight. People were evangelicals were not supposed to. And there, uh, there were almost no role or role models. There was one, role model that was sitting on the fence, and I knew that wasn't a role model I wanted to follow. So in the beginning, I would get my mail would be about for every, uh, 10 letters. No, out of 20 [00:46:00] letters, emails I would get one would be way to go and 19 would be. You know, you're going to hell, you're a harlot. And because I'm a woman, there would be all anatomical body parts thrown in those comments too pretty mean stuff. And they would typically be from somebody with a, um, an authoritarian background. Because you can find who people are pretty easily, at least where they post or their interest, you can figure them out. Most of those were people with police or military backgrounds. [00:46:30] And then the second group that I was getting was black women that were objecting to what I was doing. And then the the and I told people in Australia this which is pretty surprising, but not um, the the number one. we don't like kay. Letters that were coming from outside the United States were from Australian men bar none. So those are my groups of people Australian men, and they would throw body parts in the conversation all the time And then it started shifting about [00:47:00] seven or eight. No. Five or six years ago, it started semi balancing. And now, um, now it's 25 to 1 positive, But I have gotten a death threat, uh, on the phone. So I I protect myself now a lot. Um, I have had pastors treat me dismissively in a way that they would never treat a man. I've been physically thrown out of a church [00:47:30] for standing up, and I was just gonna make a one minute, 22nd statement on the dangers of reparative therapy on LGBT youth. You know, in terms of suicide, depression, alcohol and drug use STD S and I had all the stats, and that's all I was planning on doing saying. But somebody tipped them off that I was there and they even knew exactly what I was saying, which was not offensive. It was just research. And I had two church, uh, three church security guards and two plainclothes policemen positioned waiting for me to stand up, and they dragged [00:48:00] me out. I've, uh, been pursued online incessantly by a a deranged man who made 20 videos about me in 26 days and it sounds harmless until you realise how destructive this person was, and I just kept getting his YouTube station shut down. And then a year later, I found out who he was through a series of Circumstancess found out he was an assembly of God's pastor in Texas, and I tried to talk to his pastor about, uh, appropriate [00:48:30] reconciliation like I wanted this guy to to see what he had done to a real human being. Pastor wouldn't wouldn't listen to me. He actually gave me the You're being too emotional, Missy. Statement. That's a button pusher for me and, um, trying to talk to him about for three months. He wouldn't talk to me. So I happen to be in Texas for I. I live in Nevada and Texas is, uh, a 27 hour drive to give you, you know, a distance. And I [00:49:00] went in on a Sunday morning when I knew this assistant pastor would be on the stage practising his music and walked in at 10 15 on a Sunday morning and confronted this guy right on the stage. And that blew that little church up on that lovely Sunday morning. But yeah, but but I think I hope I put off an air of Yeah, come talk to me. But I think I also now to people they see I am strong. I'm, uh I'm I'm [00:49:30] I'm approachable, but I'm strong. And the way I sometimes say to people is, I was born in New York City. I cannot help this. And so although people can want to now come and try to give me their barrage of hatred because, as I said, there's so much misogyny mixed up in this conversation, I don't allow it. So when it starts to come at me, if a person keeps driving towards me, I walk away from conversations all the time, and then [00:50:00] I get pegged as stupid or she can't handle the questions or she doesn't know the answers. But I would rather preserve my own inte integrity than to engage in in silly conversations. But I think once people start with me, that misogyny doesn't work. And but yeah, it's it's been an interesting walk as a woman, but I think I really do think my age is an asset in this. Because [00:50:30] I came of age in the 19 seventies, I turned 1970. I turned 14. I went to high school and college in the 19 seventies, which in the United States was the decade of feminism, and we've never hit it again. It it just has not been equal or paralleled. 1982 in the United States. The religious right was already in place, trying to imagine unimaginably not [00:51:00] allow the Equal Rights Amendment to pass, and it never passed it. Still, to this day has not passed. And so, I, I say to people, I stood up when I was 14 and I never sat down. So although yes, this stuff comes at me, I've just got these pieces in place that I can only say God knew the pieces of the puzzle to put in place so that I could stand against the hatred. I've gotten way better at it, and it's gotten way less too. So Oh, my [00:51:30] goodness, it's getting It's getting good. And you're saying that one of those groups was black women? Oh, yeah, like where does that come from? So I think well and so because there's part of this conversation in the United States that people use and I don't use it as a lead, a lead conversation. But it will be that it's just the next civil rights movement. Like black. Civil rights was the last civil rights movement, and this is [00:52:00] the next civil rights movement. So people have objected to a correlation between LGBT rights and the rights of people of colour. And there's also a denial within the black community that there's any kind of same sex interaction there. The, um the percentage of men on the the down low, you know, being in heterosexual relationships and [00:52:30] then having gay relationships on the side. The percentage of men in the black community is far higher than in the white community, because in the black community it's less acceptable for a man. To you know, an air quote strongly act like a woman, take the position of a woman, be penetrated like a woman, penetrate another man like a woman. All of that. Those gender roles are strongly, more strongly entre entrenched [00:53:00] in not just the black community, the black community. The women have spoken up strongly, but those same dynamics are entrenched in the Asian Pacific island cultures, cultures that are honour, shame, culture, those cultures really struggle with same sex relationships. But people in the Asian Pacific island cultures are polite, and they don't speak up with the vehemence [00:53:30] that some other cultures speak up with. So, yeah, so it's It's interesting, but those are my three top ones authoritarian authoritarians, black women and then Australian men. You know, I could go on a show and say, What do these three groups people have in common and probably nobody could ever guess it. You briefly mentioned reparative therapy. I've never heard of that. What? What is that? Oh, you [00:54:00] poor New Zealander. It's still going on in the United States. So it started in the mid seventies in the United States. So we are the the the creators and exporters of all things bright and beautiful. And not and so in the 19 seventies, as as the the designation of mental illness came off of homosexuality in the United States and the American psychological and medical associations in 1973 [00:54:30] um, and the gay people in the in in the gay community were starting to organise for civil rights. All of this thing would have just organically moved. It would have just people would have come into their civil rights, but political parties were starting to understand that they could use this hatred that Anita Bryant. I mean, check the history created about, um, gay people recruiting and, uh, recruiting her Children. All [00:55:00] of this was starting to happen in the seventies. And what the conservative Christians and conservative politicians that were trying to get Republicans are conservatives back into power. Saw that this whole thing about the dirty, filthy gays, the re the child recruiting gays was starting to work. And so when we started to get this issue into the church, then the church realised we can't really have gay people in our churches, So surely we must be able to fix them. [00:55:30] And it was also during a movement of what was called name it and claim it, blab it and grab it. You know, prosperity, doctrine, word of faith, movement, so that all you would really have to say is, I give this up, I'm no longer gay, I'm straight. And then those people could be merged into the church. So organisations started the first one being exodus. It started as a church prayer group, actually, in 1973 and by 1976 it had it had morphed into an organisation that said, We can change [00:56:00] your sexual orientation. They were grabbing back to information from the sixties from medical information from the sixties that was never based in research. And they were grabbing it forward now slapping Bible verses onto it mostly first Corinthians 6 11, which, which said, You know, some of you were this this, this this and homosexuals and such were some of you. So they would go on to that verse and they'd say, say, Look, see Paul knew homosexuals and he said and and it and it says [00:56:30] he knew some that were homosexuals, and they no longer are. So you must be able to not be a homosexual anymore, too. So let's do these programmes Where and these These are true. Let's teach men. There's a place in Marin County. Let's teach men to throw footballs and work on their engines, and the lesbians may have to teach them that. But in the other side of the room, let's teach lesbians how to put dresses on and do their hair and do their makeup and walk a certain way. [00:57:00] So part of It was behavioural modification, and a lot of those people they were getting in the in the beginning years were coming out of that. You know, hippie movement, Jesus movement, a lot of free stuff, everything going on and and because of the stigma of being gay, even they may have been into drugs and alcohol. So maybe Christianity. Faith helped them not be drug addicts and alcoholics anymore. But that was a behaviour modification. They thought, Well, let's also tack on this sexual orientation. So in the beginning, [00:57:30] it was just let's modify all this stuff and people thought it was working. And in the eighties it grew, and in the nineties it became politicised under a man named Alan Chambers. In the nineties it became politicised, and it was very much in churches. And there were all kinds of ministries all over the United States that promised pastors that you send your you know, you outsource your gay people to me, and we can change them from homosexual [00:58:00] to heterosexual. And they also so not only did they push reparative therapy so changing from gay to straight, and they said that it was highly successful. Not, but we can. Also, um, the other part of this is not only can we help them not be gay anymore, but if you're not quite there yet, the last thing you need to do as a step of obedience to God is to marry a person of the opposite sex in absolute faith, knowing that God [00:58:30] will bring you those passions and emotions. So that's called mixed orientation marriage. And there's an age of people kind of amorphic lines. But in that mid forties and above that had been exposed to reparative therapy, they were also told to get married. And there's this horrible number of Christian people that have been in these mixed orientation marriages, and now they're sort of at the ages. On [00:59:00] the end of those ages, the kids get out of the house and the husband and wife look to each other, and there's never been anything there. And it's I'm watching People go through it late in life late in their sixties and seventies, and I know hundreds of people who have been married to the opposite sex person, and it never was right. And so others will say, Well, they created great families and what about those families and you say, Well, same sex couples can create great families, too. And what I see [00:59:30] is a lot of my friends adopting Children out of the foster care system and being incredible parents. There's these kids that heterosexuals don't want that gay couples are taking and they're doing a great job. Um, so reparative therapy. It's still going on, and it's still going on in Australia. And so it's Christian based groups with broken, discarded medical information, [01:00:00] wrapping that around misinterpreted verses of the Bible and selling a promise that will never happen. We certainly had groups in the, I think in the seventies and eighties here that that were doing that and I I just hadn't heard it called reparative therapy before thinking right back to the start of the interview, where we were talking about kind of exporting hatred and exporting kind of ideas from the US to places like Australia and New Zealand. You were saying that [01:00:30] not only had it happened in Australia, but also things had been exported from the US and come to New Zealand. Can you do you have examples of that? I don't have. I haven't. I haven't done the research here yet, but I'm fairly sure I'm going to find those same examples. Um, I don't have specifics on New Zealand, Uh, because I didn't know I was gonna be working in New Zealand. I thought I was gonna come here and hike your beautiful mountains, and that didn't happen. But what I plan on doing [01:01:00] is I plan on taking my book and I think in in the end of November through December and part of some some, um, slower times for me in 27, 2017. I'm looking at three people I want to work with in Australia. And I'm gonna try to find someone in New Zealand that can help me research and adapt my book to these markets. Mostly though, to Australia, because the marriage problem [01:01:30] is going to even when they vote for marriage equality. The problem is so entrenched in the churches that they're they're right now about where we were 10 years ago. But they're gonna zip right up to where we are currently. It's gonna happen very quickly. So I'm trying to adapt my work because the foundation is so solid. Just take all these things and interact put them on the timeline that I've already created and make it work for Australia. And last night I was talking to someone [01:02:00] I've got to also make this work for New Zealand. And, you know, I said to my friend in the Salvation Army and the Salvation Army is gonna be part of that, you know, part of that history and work with, uh, writers and editors in Australia and New Zealand to make it current and accessible to these cultures and get it out as soon as I can so that I can help impact the conversation because it's all the same history, all the same stigma, all the same differences between men and women. [01:02:30] But it's it's really I studied the Australian part. I understand the Australian part with a working conversation, but it's really interesting to watch that there are pivotal people in countries that either do good things or bad things that the the conversation moves forward. But at what pace is it gonna move forward? Is it gonna be knocked off track by 20 years by this group? Is it gonna be pushed forward 15 years [01:03:00] by this person? There are people that that impact that progression. But the progression does move forward. So I don't understand the New Zealand part yet, but within three months I will.

IRN: 1088
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/leaving_a_legacy.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004469
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089763
TITLE: Leaving a Legacy
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Connor McLeod; Elizabeth Kerekere; Gareth Watkins; Kevin Haunui; Linda Evans; Sian Torrington; Tabby Besley; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Adrienne Girling; Alexander Turnbull Library; Aotearoa New Zealand; Ara Taiohi; Bay of Plenty; Civil Union Act (2004); Connor McLeod; Day of Silence; Destiny Church; Elizabeth Kerekere; Ellen Faed; Gareth Watkins; Gay BC (Wellington Access Radio); Gay Fathers group (Wellington); HIV / AIDS; InsideOUT Kōaro; Kapiti Gay (Coast Access Radio); Karen Harris; Kevin Haunui; Lesbian Information, Library and Archives Centre (LILAC); Lesbian Wellington; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Lesbian and Gay Rights Resource Centre; Linda Evans; Mahara Davis; Murupara; Māori; National Gay Rights Coalition; Out in the Park (Wellington); Phil Parkinson; Pink Triangle collective; QUILTED BANANAS (Wellington Access Radio); Radio New Zealand; Roger Swanson; Rotorua; Samesame But Different (2016); Sian Torrington; Solidarity with Orlando Candlelight Vigil (Wellington); Tabby Besley; Te Kooti Arikirangi Te Turuki; Te Matatini; Te Whaiti; Thistle Hall; Tony Reed; Tīwhanawhana; We Don't Have To Be The Building (2016); Wellington; Wellington Access Radio; Wellington Pride; accessibility; activism; archives; arson; arts; civil unions; facebook. com; gay; growing up; homosexual law reform; identity; instagram. com; invisibility; language; legacy; lesbian; march; oral history; politics; preservation; protest; representation; research; restorative practice; school; social media; suicide; support; takatāpui; teaching; training; trans; twitter. com; waiata; whakapapa; youth
DATE: 14 September 2016
YEAR: 2016
LOCATION: Thistle Hall, First floor, 293 Cuba Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the Leaving a Legacy workshop held at Thistle Hall, Wellington on 14 September 2016. The workshop looked at creative ways to record and preserve our diverse identities, cultures and world views. It was organised by Tiwhanawhana and the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ) and facilitated by Elizabeth Kerekere.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: [00:00:30] OK [00:01:00] [00:01:30] killed. [00:02:00] Thank you all for coming. I'm really excited because, uh, for history has arranged a series of events. The first, uh, was with Wellington Parade, uh, to do the movie night and the dance with dance. Uh, we had the dance upstairs on Saturday, and then the opening to our exhibition here was on Monday, so I know I'm always Yep, we're gonna dance, We're gonna party, [00:02:30] we're going to do art, and we're going to have fun, and then we're going to do some work. So this is the work bit. So thank you for coming for this. So our format for tonight Quick fire. I know people have got great things going on on their lives, even if that includes being on the couch watching TV. Uh so So I appreciate you've taken time out of your evening to be here, so we got two segments to tonight. The first we're going to hear from some speakers people who work and [00:03:00] who do things in our community and do different ways of collecting information. And, uh, yeah, how do we keep our stories alive with some of the some examples of that? And then we're just going to spend the second hour doing some quick work shopping things. Get out of the chair, do some moving around. And it's not, like interrupt interpretive dance or anything or something. Not that kind of out of your chair thing. But, uh, yes. And so I would like to introduce our first speaker, and we're going to Each [00:03:30] of the speakers will introduce actually themselves. And we're going to get the ball rolling. And you know the order speaker. So we'll just roll, I'll remind you after each. So we're gonna start. Thank you so much. We're gonna invite you to come on up and have a recording. Uh, I'm, uh, Gareth Watkins. And, um, I, uh, founded pride NZ in 2009. So I'm going to talk a wee bit about my background and also pride NZ. Um, but firstly, [00:04:00] thank you, um, Elizabeth And for for for offering this opportunity, it's really fantastic to be able to come and speak and and share, um, to give you a bit of background about me. Um, Mum came from Yorkshire in England and Dad came from in Wales and they came out to New Zealand in 1960 something in the sixties. Um, and I was born in Wellington in the seventies. Um, my connections with the United Kingdom have really kind [00:04:30] of been disconnected, So I've I've kind of lost really connections with which was a small Welsh mining village in Yorkshire. And, um, it just, I think, points to the, um those connections can easily be lost within a generation. Um, and I kind of feel that a wee bit about the Rainbow Communities as well. It's very easily to forget, you know, what's what's been before us. And so I think that's one of the drivers for me, for pride, DNZ is to make sure we or we try not to forget. Um, I've been working [00:05:00] in radio since, uh, 1990 mainly in public radio. But I've also done commercial radio and, um, Wellington access community radio uh, two stories from Radio New Zealand, um, which I thought were quite interesting in the mid nineties. I wanted to make, um, Rainbow related documentaries. And so I went to a senior manager there, and they turned around and said, You can't have gay voices on the radio, because if one minority group are on air, then [00:05:30] others will. And I was thinking, Well, what's the problem? Um, but there was a problem. And so a lot of the documentaries I was making in the nineties actually were broadcast overseas, but they were never broadcast in New Zealand. So there's a There's a about six documentaries that haven't been broadcast in New Zealand. Um, which is is kind of interesting. Um, the thing that pushed me out of Radio New Zealand in 2006 was a was a, um, quite a. It was a small thing, but it [00:06:00] was a huge thing as well was that, um we had done a programme on disability, and there was an advert for that that played on the on on air. And a senior manager said, We must take this off air because this person sounds retarded in quotation marks. And I just could not believe the fact that, um, the managers at the time couldn't allow other voices to to to be on radio. So, um, I did a quick exit of Radio New Zealand and went to, uh, access radio [00:06:30] in Wellington. And access radio is a community station that has had a long association with a whole variety of groups and individuals. Um, that allows anyone to broadcast and has had a long association with, uh, Rainbow Communities. So right back from the early broadcast in 1981 I think on the first broadcast, there was, um uh, a lesbian feminist programme. Um and, um then there was the lesbian community programme. Right from which Linda was, um, set up, [00:07:00] um, one of the founders in BC, which was around kind of homosexual. Yeah, Yeah, it's an amazing, um, community platform to to to allow people to to, um, put across their views. In 2008, I undertook a Winston Churchill Memorial fellowship when I was at access radio to look at community media in California in the US and to look at sustainability. How do how do we keep things going? Because access is always on a knife edge between [00:07:30] whether it broadcasts or whether it doesn't, um, got really inspired. Came back to New Zealand thinking that Oh, there was all these wonderful people with so much passion. So I put a proposal into New Zealand on air to get funding for a nationwide radio rainbow programme that would have regional reporters and they would come together and would do a weekly, um, programme. That was rejected. Um, New Zealand on air said that, um, it needed to have a commercial backing in terms of like you had to go to, like, AM or some [00:08:00] commercial station. And there was no way that a commercial station station was going to run half an hour of, you know, queer content and that kind of form. Um and so I've applied to N on air about four times with various themes around that that kind of Pride NZ type thing of having long form, um, rainbow related material and four times they've said no. Um, but being turned down financially was actually really good, because actually, it prompts you. It says, Oh, well, [00:08:30] you know, do it yourself. Use the resources that you've got. Don't wait for government funding. Even if it's small, start small and just keep doing it. And, um, it has been going for seven years Now, Um, this actually is the seventh 100th recording that we're doing tonight, which is really cool to me. Yeah. Um, and to me, it's just amazing that it has kept going. And I think the reason it's kept going is because, um, [00:09:00] we just do it as we can when we can. We don't try and be this huge big organisation. It is. You know, if we've got the resource at the time, we do it. Otherwise, we just say, Well, that that would be nice to do. Let's work, work towards towards it. So we're not really setting ourselves up to kind of be huge and possibly fail. Um, so basically, I'm the, uh, executive editor, And then I coordinate recording projects, bringing people in to do projects like, um, Jack did a wonderful project around the on botch series. Um, also [00:09:30] the homosexual law reform interviews. And he's done. And Connor has done some really amazing youth interviews. Um, yeah. So it's kind of bringing people in and and getting them kind of involved. And I love that idea of peer to peer interviewing. So it's youth interviewing youth, um, or or elders interviewing elders. Um, just because you have different access and those different groups ask different questions. So it's not always coming from the same point of view. Um, which [00:10:00] I really love. Um, so some of the recordings we do are are one on one interviews so reflective, say, looking back at somebody's life, looking back at a career, um, or current interviews. So it's, uh, what is happening to somebody in the moment. There's nothing like that kind of energy of We don't quite know what's going to happen, you know, there's a there's a real energy to it that you don't get it. If you're reflecting back on something, um, we do a one off recording. So like the Orlando Shooting Memorial, Um, which was, [00:10:30] um, done by inside out, which organised that which was an amazing event. Uh, conferences like the proud Conference, Um, and even 30 years since homosexual law reform we're still having first, Like last year we had the first was at the Writers Festival in Auckland, the first time in 30 years that that that that had happened. Um, so we were able to record that, Um, so for me, it's not about one project standing out. It's about just the fact that pride NZ exists after seven years and that each [00:11:00] recording builds this and contributes to this body of, of of knowledge that we can share and kind of maintain, Um, for me, Yeah, it's all about the, you know, the voices, that kind of challenge, what I think and challenge what other people think, but also a firm, um, community as well. So I get a lot of kind of, um, comfort from hearing kind of rainbow voices in terms of, um, gaps or concerns stories that aren't being [00:11:30] told. Uh, you know, there are thousands of stories and voices that aren't being heard. Um, but I don't think it's one organisation that will collect those stories. And sometimes stories aren't meant to be kept. You know, sometimes they they they they just go, they are, and they go, Um, but so for pride and Z, it's it's doing what we can, but also trying to help enable other groups to do their thing. So, um, offering training for other groups to do podcasts and and [00:12:00] to get on radio to kind of, um, be an enabler enabler. Sorry. Um, yeah, through training and support. Um, my biggest concern. Really. And I think, um, Ellen will echo this is the the vulnerability of digital files. That so we've got 700 recordings on pride NZ. They're on two hard drives that have to migrate every four years. If they don't get migrated, the hard drive might fail. What happens if both hard drives [00:12:30] fail? You know, we're we're we're stuffed. So the fragility of digital files is is huge. So, I, I think, um, we'd love to work with, you know, in terms of developing a way of making sure that we can, um, keep those digital files because it's not like a bit of paper or a photograph, which may survive 100 years. Um, in four years time, those files might not, um, so it's kind of scary thinking in those terms, but, um, yeah, thank you so much for inviting me. And, um, [00:13:00] I hope that was interesting. I realise now I need to take notes. Um, yeah, Kevin, honey is my name, and my background is Maori effectively. My both my parents are Maori come from different parts of the country. [00:13:30] And, um, of course, I inherited their histories of where they came from in terms of, um, uh, the people that went before them and the histories that were going on at the time, Um, for them. So I was brought up in the Bay of Plenty and born in spent my early life in places like and which are really, [00:14:00] really tiny places. Uh, where forestry was the main income for the small town of and native forestry was the probably the, um, the income. But my parents were teachers, so they were, um they were they they came through the Ardmore teachers College system, which [00:14:30] means, I think these days that they were they were prepared to be teachers in a certain way. Uh, as Maori teachers, they had to save a little bit of time at Native Maori schools before they then went to, um, primary schools. And I guess the reason why I'm telling you a little bit about my in that sense and those histories is because, um here to talk really about [00:15:00] as the or songs as the, um, as the means by which legacies, uh, the means by which politics, uh, the means by which emotions and all those sorts of things are are conveyed. And so part of the history that comes from my father's side, um, comes down through to who was a, uh Well, actually, [00:15:30] where I come from, and the the stories that the people told me they use the word, which means a mischief. So and I think that was somebody that challenges, um, conventions maybe or the way that that things are done. And so, uh, was a particular form of protest that, um, uh, used to used to use [00:16:00] change the words, uh, reframe a and actually, uh, play it back or sing it back to his detractors. And so there's a famous, uh uh, I think it is is like a chant, uh, called, uh, which is sung along the East Coast. And he reframed that particular, uh, to talk [00:16:30] about all the things that were going on at the time land wars or land sales and so forth. So I talk about that because, uh, I've done a little composing, and the compositions that I wrote about come from the perspective of being gay or in today's society. And so the song for me was [00:17:00] a way of using the tools that I was most, um, comfortable with, particularly with songs, uh, but using those tools to reframe the voices, which I wasn't hearing when I was growing up in terms of being uh, there were no stories. There were no novels. Really? Um, there were No, there was No, there was no history. There was no scholarly base around, uh, around. And so [00:17:30] I'd always grown up as a as a youngster, knowing very well that I was same sex attracted or sexually attracted, probably sexually attracted to men. Well, became men at that time, was sexually attracted to anything that was not anything but, um, sexually attractive. That's what I said. But the, um [00:18:00] And now I got it. But basically, the song was written to at a time when, uh, the civil union bill was was being debated. And the very public face of Maori during that time was, um the destiny Church marches because they were predominantly Maori. And the church is all in black was also around the similar time [00:18:30] that, um, even the church and the Maori Church, in terms of bishop was saying, Oh, you know, blah, blah, blah, those sort of things. So this this particular song was was written in response to what I was seeing, and actually, I was in Sydney at the time that those marches were happening and and I saw it on TV, which actually, uh gave it an even greater sense of of, uh, importance to me, because here I was sitting overseas, watching [00:19:00] this going on and thinking that this is what people are seeing over in Sydney, and this is what they're thinking that Maori are all about. And I thought, No, it's not not the case. So it is about creating it is about creating a legacy. But in the first instance, it was actually a political response. Uh, and the legacy actually actually came after that because the legacy is that people wanted to sing it. People wanted [00:19:30] to create actions to go with the song, and it took about five years or six years before the actions actually came to the song. Um, they And when I talk about the song, I know we're talking about words, but there's actually a whole lot more to it as well. The whole storyline of the journey within the within the song the, um, the different layers within the song. So that, um, [00:20:00] one of the layers is actually follows a welcoming process of with a and right through to when you've finished your speeches and sung your song and you're coming together and so forth. Um, the other. The other aspects of it was to use the language of our forefathers as well. So it actually uses a lot of language that wasn't developed by me, but phrases that are well known within Maori to [00:20:30] reflect the thoughts that I wanted to give them that song. So I think to myself, What can we learn from from, well, absolutely heaps. Um, but as I say, it was also using the tools that I thought was most effective for my primary audience, which was Maori and are an essential part of that. That audience, [00:21:00] I think, and just a quick note to add to that because the humility that is Kevin uh, is that we make sure as a group, as we give life to that by always singing it, it's our signature. And when we teach it, we always teach the words, uh, what it means in English, the history of it. And let's [00:21:30] say that that in that moment when Kevin was reacting to what was happening here and he wrote these amazing, beautiful words, but still it's 12 years later, we're still singing it we sung it on Monday night and and so that that's the way a lot of it. One of the comments that was made at about is all these new ways are written every two years for these big, massive performances and never sung again because they they're responding to issues of the day. But then there's no groups [00:22:00] are writing the next ones and performing the next ones. And that's Thomas. I just wanted to add that it's still there. Yeah, got it up. Um, my name is Linda Evans, and I'm here partly as one of the curators of the lesbian and gay archives. Um, [00:22:30] my personal, um, background is a kind of a hybrid. My biological family, um, is in Irish and English, um, and came to this country sort of from the in the second half of the 19th century, right through to the thirties, various waves, um, and the Irish were Irish Catholics, So there was a particular perspective on history. Um, and, uh my. But then, [00:23:00] for me, also, a big part of my background is being part of women's liberation and lesbian feminism, and that's sort of my That's my family as much as anything. Both, you know, both are not, um and also, um, for many years now I've lived in, so that's kind of become my place, even though it's not where I was born. Um, and the lesbian gay archives is, um, an organisation that has been around [00:23:30] since 1977 in a slightly different form. And it's a little bit like, um, Kevin was saying, you know, it came from activism, and I really like that. Um, it was the archive. It was called the Lesbian and Gay Rights Resource Centre. And it was in a house in a building in street, which has since been demolished. Um, and it was the archives of the National Gay Rights Coalition, Um, and Pink Triangle newspaper. And, [00:24:00] in fact, one of the, um, Roger Swanson. Who's the other, um, curator of the archive. Um, one of our colleagues at work was one of the people who started organising those papers on a PE P job in the very beginning. So that was quite a neat kind of beginning. Um, and so there was. But then it became, like a resource centre that was consciously developed by, um uh, a couple of guys, um, who were, um, librarians. And the last one was Phil Parkinson, who worked [00:24:30] really hard for many, many years, Did a huge amount of work on the archive and building it up and making sure it was well documented. Um, then and and also, it was used as an in an activist way. It was really important for law reform. It sort of produced, um, background material and information for MP S and really became a specialist, um, archive on HIV A. I DS as well. So it's kind of, you know, got a real activist background. Um, [00:25:00] it, uh, in, um 1986. Uh, there was a fire, an arson attack on the archive. And so at that time, everyone regrouped and thought, What? How can we make it more secure? It's very vulnerable being in a building that has other, you know, political groups, um, community groups, people living, you know, so you can't It's not a secure building, and you didn't want it to be one. But, um, So with the cooperation of, um, Phil Parkinson's colleagues from the Turnbull, [00:25:30] um, most of the collection was salvaged and an arrangement evolved with the Turnbull Library so that the archive could be kept kept safe and secure there, which has got its pluses and minuses. It's certainly safe, Um, and the Turnbull houses it and provides helps us provide access to the collection. The trust still owns the collection. Um, but of course, it's not a place people can just walk into and browse. So we have to work out other ways to make things more accessible. [00:26:00] And I think that's a kind of a part, a big thing for me, of working out other other ways to make things available while still encouraging everyone to come in as well. Because there'll be things that we're not going to be putting on the Internet or making easily available outside because, you know, people's names are there. People's personal details are there the, um, Gans collects, uh, manuscripts like papers of groups, the papers of individuals. So, uh, which is, you know, really important and a really important [00:26:30] aspect of any archive. Our groups, papers don't always survive. Um, people move on, people move house. You know, sometimes the record keeping is not great. Um, because because of the activist nature of many of the groups. Um, and we have posters, other kinds of things that are produced in the course of creating our cultures, creating our political groups, um, and our events and our political actions. So, [00:27:00] um, posters, flyers, ephemera, buttons, you know, all of that kind of material. But also, we're interested in personal accounts of what, um people's experiences are and their observations and their thoughts about things. And I guess that's where the oral history came in, which I see that Elizabeth has kind of put me down for as well, because it's my day job as, um, curator of the Oral History Centre, as was now [00:27:30] the oral history and sound collection at the Alexander Turnbull Library. And um, that's a job which at the moment focuses on the the collection of recordings of interviews and events, um, but also can be involved with, um, training and research and other aspects as well. And I think oral history is really valuable as a way of, um eliciting, um, material making sure people's voices are included, especially if they may not have [00:28:00] large numbers of papers or large or or a whole lot of other photographs or whatever to show for their lives and their activities. But it's I mean, I think oral history is valuable, whether you're well known or not, because it can cover those mundane aspects of life. It can cover people's personal reflections. And I think one of the things where it differs a little bit from what Gareth is doing, which is so valuable having all the material that's readily available is if if people wanted [00:28:30] to speak, um, frankly, they can retain some control over access to the material for some time if they want to, so that we can say, You know, we'd like to gather sensitive material on quite a sensitive topic and people to be free to talk openly about it. And then, um, it can be restricted for a certain time or there can be a permission procedure. So it's just got that extra layer possible and then, you know, maybe in in way into the future it will be available more [00:29:00] widely. But, um, for now, it can be, um, mediated the access to it. So, um, I think one of the well, if you talk about a project that was, um that I was and and we I think we all have been happy with. It's been used and used and used as the work we've done over the years around homosexual law reform. And Gareth did some really valuable digitization work for us when we got a, um, a small grant and we were able to digitise recordings relevant [00:29:30] to law reform some of those on Pride NZ and, um, David Henley's wonderful photographs that have been the images you often see of, um, especially of the Wellington aspect of the law reform campaign. But we'd like to, you know, make more material available now and work on some other topics, because what anything that's readily available is what gets used. And I think we would have noticed that during the, um, celebrations, the anniversaries and stuff everyone reaches for the material [00:30:00] that's readily available. And those are the images that get reproduced, and those are the sound bites that get reproduced. And so it was great that we had them there. Now we want to do more, um, in terms of the gaps. Uh, well, there's lots of gaps. I mean, we try to be comprehensive about all of our related communities, and, um, we do have some overseas material because it's no doubt been really influential in, uh, in, um, what's happened here? And people have [00:30:30] travelled to and fro. Um, people have read stuff from overseas and been inspired by it. Uh uh, the digital, the the fact that we don't have the ability yet to do preservation of digital material, we can collect it, but we don't have that access to preservation yet. That's one of our most urgent and pressing needs. Um, and I think the other, um, Gap for us is is a just, um Well, as people will know who volunteered to do [00:31:00] volunteer work at the archive, we're kind of only on the threshold of organising ourselves to move forward with that, um, being able to draw on community resources. And we always would like more and, um, personal stories, personal photographs, so on. So if you've got anything that you think would be, um, a good contribution to the archive, please talk to me or to roger. And, um, we'd be really happy to talk with you about it. And if anyone's got any questions [00:31:30] later, happy to answer them Still that trying to try put channels on OK and pressing. Um, I'm Sean Torrington, and I've just finished a project [00:32:00] called We Don't Have To Be the Building, which is currently on Courtney Place in the light boxes. And, um, I'm here via video to, uh, talk about some of the processes around, um, recording our stories through creative means, Um, through that project. So it was, uh, for me, it was about looking for my queer, um, ancestors through activism and and art making, uh, starting [00:32:30] with homosexual law reform 30 years ago. So that was a real catalyst for me this year. It really kicked me into action and, uh, sort of gave me permission to to look for, uh, look for some of our stories as well. Um, I used a consent based model for this project, so I felt like it was OK for me to ask for people to be involved and talk to me and and sit for me to be drawn. Uh, as long [00:33:00] as it was always ok for people to say no at any point through the through the process. Someone asked me recently what the methodology was, Um and, uh, I said curiosity, creativity, uh, care, layering acceptance stuff like that. So for me, it was quite a, uh uh, a human sort of project. It wasn't academic, but it was a research project, um, through various [00:33:30] media. So I started in in the, uh, lesbian and gay archives, and they showed me a lot of stuff about about the history that I didn't know, and particularly around solidarity, politics, conflict and divisions within our community divisions that were then there 30 years ago and that are still there Now, they showed me things I didn't expect. Uh, the project was focused on the [00:34:00] queer female support of homosexual law reform and from there, an expanded look at what prevents us from freely accessing and exploring our own bodies, genders and sexualities. One of the things I found in the archives in La Annes was, uh, about the exclusion of bisexual women at that time in the eighties and nineties, from from feminists from lesbian spaces from women's spaces. [00:34:30] Uh, I didn't know about that. It was really painful to, uh, learn about that and read about that in the archives. And as a researcher and as an artist, I had to address that in my project. um so and that was that was one of the points when the project started to become more about solidarity and how we reach each other across our differences. Um, than than maybe about maybe about anything else. Um, So I I had [00:35:00] to rely on my own friendships and my own, uh um relationships of trust to ask for those those stories in the project. And they're in one of the light boxes. There was also Solidarity called for in the archives for land rights and honour in, or, um, and people talked a lot about caring about oppression that doesn't directly affect you. Uh, people saw homosexual law reform as a human rights issue that affected [00:35:30] us at all. Um, and for me, that was really motivating, um, to think about creative ways to bring us together. Um, I heard this, uh, this word, um, from Moana Jackson last week. The the work to bring us together, Um and yeah, I feel like that's really, really important. Um, I wanted the project to be intergenerational, and that's one of the things that's happened [00:36:00] through the archives. It's allowed me to put the voices of our ancestors into those light boxes, Uh, some of whom I know and some of whom. I don't, um, and and through that, I guess I've produced a new archive of of our Stories of embodied creative, uh, research and documentation. Um, I just wanted to talk a little bit about, um So everything in this project was [00:36:30] invented. It was about listening and being guided. And the last stage was the was the dawn blessing, and the knowledge and wisdom of how to do that was brought by, uh was powerful and generous and wise. And I will always be deeply grateful for that. Uh, I understand also that that was a real moment in our in our, um and, uh, history. And that's all been documented as well. [00:37:00] So everything's been documented through photographs and audio and video, and, uh, as well as drawing and and writing. Um, the project was a range of experimental offers, and it was really revelatory for me about the ability of creative practise to here, Hold, reflect and record our stories. Um, And to do that through workshops through drawing people through, asking [00:37:30] people for their story. Um, And for me, as an artist, uh, for that to be a, uh, a service that I could offer to my community to be a a kind of skilled vessel for those those stories. So, um, that's my contribution to to tonight, [00:38:00] uh, and be the national coordinator of Inside Out. I just wanted to thank Elizabeth and for, um, inviting us here to be part of this tonight. I think it's really Yeah, it's a little bit intimidating speaking, um, after these wonderful people who have been collecting, um, all this history and I guess because we're an organisation that has only been around for four years and everything's new and we're talking about social media, um, and we've done lots of work with people like Gareth, um, and Shan. Um and actually, just this week, we've been putting together a little pile [00:38:30] to submit to LA So it's really exciting. Um, yeah. So I'm ky. Um I grew up in the UK. Suffolk East Anglia. Um, my family. My mom's side is, um, comes from Inverness in Scotland, um, and moved to, um England. She doesn't know the, um yeah, she doesn't know her, her dad. So that part of our family is a little a gap for us. Um, my dad's side of the family are mostly, um, English, with also some Russian and Japanese [00:39:00] connections. So we've kind of Yeah, it fits from here and there. Um, and my family moved over to, um, New Zealand in 2005. Um, my parents split up, and my mum decided to escape and go on holiday for six months, and she asked us where we wanted to go, and we were really into Lord of the Rings. So we said New Zealand, Um, nine days later, we flew here and never went back. Um, I mean, I've now been 10 years later, I went back for my first time, and it was Yeah. So [00:39:30] we, um we were really lucky to to come to a and, um, eventually get residency here, And, um, just so, so grateful for that. Yeah, that journey. Um, and here I've lived in, um, Nelson. Um, now Wellington. Newtown. Um, I'm really happy to be here. Yeah. Hi. Uh, I'm Conor. Uh, I'm I'm Or which is top of the South Island. Um, I grew up in Fiji. I lived [00:40:00] there for eight years of my life, and then I shifted to Nelson. Um, and I did lots of, like, activist kind of stuff there. As a teenager, I've always been a very idealistic kind of person. Very big dreamer. And so I went to school right after Tabby and, um led Nan's alliance of Queers and Straits after her and I was on the board of down there. And then Tay invited me into to be a part of inside out when I shifted to Wellington a couple of years ago. [00:40:30] So now I'm schools coordinator at inside out. I do, Um I just network with schools, and, uh, I guess a lot of our work can be found on social media and Tabby and I constantly, like, watch. We post on the Facebook, all the Twitter, all the instagram, and I don't know. It feels weird having like an actual presentation about that, because it's just like, I don't know. It's like, how do we make this sound intelligent? [00:41:00] Um, so, yeah, I'm really I'm really happy to be here, and I think a large part of what we do inside out is we're a by youth for youth organisation, so it's pretty intimidating being, um surrounded a lot in our work by people who are a lot older and experienced than us. But we like to think that we have some kind of youth. The perspectives? Um, yeah. So inside out. So a national charity, um, established four [00:41:30] years ago, um, kind of came out of, um, get my experience at high school going to the first, um, school, probably in the whole Asia Pacific region, to have a Queer Strait alliance or Rambo diversity group. When I was coming out, that was just incredible to have my school kind of affirming who I was and to have a peer group, um, to support me in that. But through that, I learned that a lot of other young people didn't have that same experience. Um, and that Yeah, there's some really horrific bullying going on across the country in our schools. Um, and that still [00:42:00] is, um so, yeah, I got involved in setting up a community group for Nelson called which Conor and I were both part of. And then, um, yeah, once you finish school, there's not really much to do in Nelson. So it was kind of like, OK, I need to get out of here. Um, but also, there's this I don't want to stop doing this work. It's so important. And, um, through that work, we got in touch with lots of other groups or schools that get in touch with us, Kind of wanting to know how they could start up similar groups. Um, so I just kind of really saw when we were talking about gaps. So we saw this [00:42:30] gap for, um, yeah, an organisation to really be doing work to support our schools, um, to support our our people in remote communities to be safe at school. Um, so that's kind of where inside out started, and then it's just grown and grown. Um, we've kind of expanded our vision to be a bit broader and think about all the ways that we can make our people feel safer in our in our communities. Um, schools are still our main, um, focus because we can't do everything, so we've got to start somewhere, but, um, yeah, we like to look at different ways that we can do that. [00:43:00] So can everybody read that this is inside out? We are. We are, um so right here. It says the concept of inside out is about supporting people to be happy and accepting of themselves on the inside and then continuing that support to see them be a positive influence in their communities, using their story to help others. So I'm over really big. Well, we're all really big supporters of telling our personal [00:43:30] stories, and we do that all all of our workshops and things like that. It really helps because most of our educators are usually career, so they usually have lots of lots of stories. Um, and next slide. Cool. So, um, as a youth organisation, social media is vital. Um, because that is how you reach a lot of young people. Um, so that's our Facebook page promoting tonight's again hope to get some people along. Did anyone see it? I don't [00:44:00] know. Um, there we go. Um, one really cool thing about Facebook in terms of again looking at, like where the gaps are. Is that on Facebook? You can through a page. You can do this thing called insights, and you can actually see who is interacting with your page so you can see, um, like what age groups whereabouts in the country they are, um, gender. Um, you can see how many people have interacted with each post that you do and stuff. So that's, um that can be really useful in terms of maybe figuring out, um, who you're [00:44:30] not reaching, um, through this platform or, um what? Things are working well to post this is our instagram, um, on the web, it looks different on your phone. Um, one thing I love about Instagram is that you can when you get what Instagram. Ok, great question. So Instagram is basically a mobile app. Um, where you share photos? Um, you can see. [00:45:00] Um guess the insta part is is the idea that it's meant to be kind of instant so you can show and people can see what you're doing in that moment. Um, I can't say we're that good at doing the moment. I I'm a later gramme kind of person. Um, yeah. Um, and a lot of young people, um, use instagram. So, and it's I guess it's Yeah, it's really visual. So it's just the image you can put a little caption. Um, but it's mostly yeah, about kind of the image and whatever that portrays. Um so for us, we mostly use it to when we're at events. So we probably [00:45:30] do one tonight to be like, Hey, we're here doing this cool thing. And then, um anyone who likes our page can Yeah, see what we've been doing. And, um, I guess it's a way of sort of like a newsletter, but like a constant one in a way, because it's kind of people constantly knowing what you're, um what things you're involved in or supporting in the community. Or, um yeah, so one thing I like is that on instagram, you can, um, attach your location. You can put you where where you are, and then people can search that location and see all the photos that were taken there. So, for example, [00:46:00] um, last week we had our National Day of Silence campaign, which is about, um, breaking silence in schools about homophobia, biphobia and transphobia, and the silencing that lots of young people have to go through about their identities. Um, so we went along to Wellington Girls College and, um, they did a open mic to break the silence. We, um, had a little chat, and then on Instagram, we were able to share that photo and put Wellington Girls College. So now when everyone, anyone, maybe past students or whoever looks up Wellington Girls College on Instagram, they'll see this photo with the rainbow flag and [00:46:30] the day of silent stuff. So it's kind of it's also attaching history to like places in a way, which is Yeah, another way of just leaving that legacy. Um, that's our Twitter page currently looking for board members if anyone's interested in it, Um uh, yeah, again, we have tend to have a slightly older audience following us on Twitter. So it's interesting as well to see if you put things out on different the same things on different platforms, what responses you get or who will be engaged. Um, cool thing about Twitter is that you can re retweet so you can [00:47:00] share what other people have posted. So, like, today, we retweeted or yesterday, um, Rainbow youth, um, up in Auckland, they were sharing a research study, um, that people who are Asian and part of the rainbow community So you just click a little button, and then that also goes out to all the people that follow us as well um, YouTube? Um, yeah. So less social media. Because that's I guess that Yeah, that video and sharing stories. But, um, it's another way that we like to Yeah, put things out there especially, um, through some of our, um, youth who events [00:47:30] that we've done kind of capturing little experiences of that and putting it out to, um, people. And I think, Yeah, I'd like to. I'd like to think that in however many years time, people will be able to watch those and get a little glimpse of what we created in those environments. Um, these are lots for our recent day of silence campaign getting young people to share some of their personal stories. Um, so, yeah, again. Kind of what it's like in 2016. We've got some from the year before as well, so maybe Yeah, What's it gonna be like in 10 years time? Um, when we [00:48:00] you know, if we're catching those stories about schools, what? What will it change? It's quite exciting. Yeah. So I just wanted to talk about a day of silence campaign as one example of a way that we use social media. So that's, um, when I asked you to put your hands up. I just explain. OK, so I'm gonna explain the concept of a hashtag. Um, so I'll try and probably not the next person. Um, so [00:48:30] can you help me here? How do you say it's your slide? Ok, cool. OK, so a hashtag um no, actually, why? Why? It's a hashtag Anyway, That's a hashtag. Um, you can make a hashtag of anything so we could make one for this event. We could put hashtag leaving a legacy or something on lots of social media platforms. People will be able to, um, search for that and then all the posts that anyone has ever tagged with that, um, will [00:49:00] come up. So it's officially used on Instagram, Twitter and Tumblr. Not so much on Facebook a little bit. Um, it's like a library catalogue. Yeah, that's what you're told. It's totally out of date. It was really useful for the day of silence because we'd be able to kind of track how the campaign's going [00:49:30] across the country through that hashtag so we'd search it up, and then we'd be able to put that all on our website and stuff. Yeah, and Yeah. So I guess hashtags are often used by people who have similar interests, and they're often used for events. Um, for people to kind of collect things like this. So those are some of the, um, things that got submitted, um, through us on our Facebook, the south east of silence. That's part of the campaign where people, um either themselves or the organisation says what they're doing to break the silence about homophobia, [00:50:00] biphobia and transphobia. Um, yeah, which is cool. Um, and this is just an example of some of the ones that we found by, um by putting in the hashtag um, day of silence. We did that on INSTAGRAM. These are some of the pictures that came up from New Zealand, and these are complete, completely different people. We've never met some of those people. They are in different parts of the country, um, who have who are joining our campaign and taking part in their local communities. Um, and they can then search that [00:50:30] and see who else is taking part. And I think especially as a national organisation, I think social media is something that's so important for us as a way to for people to feel connected and especially for young people, young people in rainbow communities, um, in rural communities, um, as a way for them to feel like they're connected to something bigger and there are other people out there to support them. So, yeah, um, I have Twitter, So, yeah, I wanted to talk a little bit about that connection because I think for a lot of young people, social media is this huge. [00:51:00] Um, connection. Uh, so we, um, have an annual at we we gather young people, old people, mostly young people from all over the country to come to and have about three nights. So, like four days of, um, workshops and and food and just kind of all getting to know each other. And for a lot of people, it's kind of the first time [00:51:30] they've been able to express their their gender, their identity, their just who they are in an open and safe place. So, um, we advertise that through social media, people find out about it through social media, and afterwards, um, all of the people that were at our, um, go into, like a facebook group and they all stay connected So, um, that's the group. And, um, those [00:52:00] are some of the kind of the comments that we get afterwards. People are still posting on from, like, even just a a few days ago. So that top one says I had a mean cry this morning because I realised I had so much support when I came out. Jena Floyd, all I gotta say is, thank you, everyone, for showing me who I truly am. Much love. And the bottom one is quite It's just those kind of comments came up a lot. And so it was also important for us to be able to see the value of our work [00:52:30] and show kind of all of this connectivity with all these young people. And I think even that that might not be recorded. It is leaving a legacy through the connections formed and the friendships made. Um, and it was like that for me in 2012 when I went to, um when I was a when I was a who we participant. Um, and those groups aren't just limited to chef. [00:53:00] Um, they're, like in so many different, um organisations throughout the country. Um, right from Dunedin right up to all, all around. Basically, they're all these different groups. And, um, I think it's just really important to acknowledge, like those connections and how they are being charged through social media and especially people of rural communities feeling more connected to, um, a wider community. Um, but I [00:53:30] have some. As for the gaps, Um, I had some questions so that I don't know the answer to I'm not a social media expert, Um, who has access to social media technology and who doesn't? Does the consum of social media limit its gope? By that, I mean, um, social media is something that's very fast and often kind of superficial. Um, it could be very raw, but it's something that's kind of it's a popularity contest a lot. So the most popular [00:54:00] stuff is generally the most consumed, and people want to put stuff on there that's popular. And I feel like that kind of limits. Sometimes what we can put on social media are our online connections as real or as powerful. I don't really have an answer, but I feel like a lot of people, um, would argue that they aren't and a lot of people would argue that they are, um, as a collaborative field over written and subjectivity. By that, I mean, social media is something that's created by everyone. It's like a hive mind, and [00:54:30] everybody has their own agenda with social media. So when we've got, like, a hive mind full of agendas and subjectivity like, can we really find, like, a truthful narrative in that? Yeah. Thank you. Wonderful. Thank you, everybody. I was just really struck by what you said just then, about the most popular stories [00:55:00] being the ones that get retold. And that totally fits in with what was said earlier about, uh, even within the archive, the stuff that's most readily available and most popular gets told over and over. So it's something just to bear in mind that even if we've collected the information, there's still particular narratives that get recycled and reinforced because of its ease of access or its perceived popularity. So, Kilda, we're going to take a break on this section, have [00:55:30] a stretch come outside, have a drink, and we're going to start the next section of tonight already. So this is gonna be cool. The last part of the section. And just so people are aware, part of this, uh, coming to this workshop came out [00:56:00] of two places, one of them was talking about strategic planning. Some of the things that, uh, we need to take leadership for and responsibility for or support, uh within our different communities. And the other part of it is the project is leading with the national Rainbow strategy, and that is about wanting to coordinate our efforts across the country and across our diverse communities. And so, of course, keeping our stories, making sure they're told and recorded and preserved [00:56:30] as a key part of that. So just to flag, I will not be writing this out and sending them to people. It's not gonna happen. This is the process. It's us talking. It's us thinking. And then this gets fed into the groups that will be will do some of this work. And so that's why splitting up issues is so important because some of it it's gonna be really obvious. Key organisations will take on those roles, but others it's as communities and as groups [00:57:00] and people who work together. How do we collectively work on some of those things So we're going to take people who feel an affinity to a particular section. I want you to grab off that section off the wall and find you a space, uh, where you can go back and grab your chairs to come out here. Um, sit around the tables, uh, or or just talk amongst yourself and just think, What are some of the key priorities that need to [00:57:30] happen in that area? And who should do it? Because dealing with homelessness and and visibility of LGBTI Q young people who are homeless, who's responsible for that? We don't have a specific group that does that. So therefore is does it mean we need a new group or are there particular groups who are on the edge of that? Uh, that could work together to progress that as an issue if we think that's a particular priority. [00:58:00] And I would just like to say how how pleased I am that even though this is a particular focus for this evening, how broad everybody has has been in their thinking and again that says to me, how connected are the people in this room and how connected our community is that we're thinking way, way past our little parts of what we do and and how we think so I'm guessing the practical things. People who work in archives, libraries and recording specifically might like to take [00:58:30] this away. We don't have a lot of paper, so write small and as many posters as you like to write a novel. It could be like a whole multicoloured chart because Elizabeth forgot the whiteboard backers. Uh, yes. So I'd like to suggest you grab those ones. Uh, people who are particularly interested in around identity and visibility and voices is probably another natural grouping, Uh, these [00:59:00] ones around representation and how communities can work. And then over here, yeah, overlooking voices. How do we actually get to increase the numbers of voices? So these are clearly overlapping as well, and that's fine. OK, good question. If we can. If we're thinking about areas or [00:59:30] organisations beyond just the LGBTI organisations, can we point them out? We think that, uh, that it's essential either government or or or you know, United Nations should get on to this. If we think that that's a that should be definitely like other groups who are not in the room and other organisations and agencies because then that that sends a signal about who we need to partner with, who we need to [01:00:00] put pressure on. Absolutely. Definitely. So just I would like people to come over and even grab some things off here, form a little group, and it could be completely random. That's all good. And just have a think about what we actually what are some of the great creative [01:00:30] ways that we can start addressing? Given what we already do so well in our community, how do we use the systems? We've all got set up the frameworks we have. How do we, uh, yeah, start sorting this out. Fine. OK, well, this group of, um, archivists and librarian took those kind of issues. Um, [01:01:00] not not solely There's There's sort of more policy and inclusiveness things, but, um, we sort of group them into the need for, um, preservation of digital records of the communities and of individuals. Um, so long term preservation and how we work this out. And then, um, archiving of social media, which is an ongoing headache for many communities all over the world. But, um, so that's something that's that's being worked on. And we want to keep [01:01:30] in touch with the work that other groups are doing, um, different sorts of access to LGBTI, Q plus et cetera, including online access. So that was all the different ways of making material, and that's in our archives in some way, or being contributed accessible to different communities, which may be physically or it may be online. And [01:02:00] one thing about the one sort of, um, sub group, I guess, was that it's important, for example, especially relating to social media is to keep records of passwords and so on, which, um, is like we were comparing it to, you know, um, PO box keys and bank account signatories and all those sort of things that groups have to keep a track of keeping having, um, really good documentation of all of these processes. Um, [01:02:30] and there was a specific, uh, proposal for, um, a queer digital working group to meet, start meeting regularly, which has been discussed before, so hopefully we can make it happen. And then there were more, um, policy things about making ends in particular, um, more responsive to connecting with younger generations and the perception of Legans is only for lesbians [01:03:00] and gays. So those are issues to be dealt with. And then there was other kind of ethical issues that were mentioned and, um, maintaining the continua continuity of collecting. So it was There's this. So this was all about practicalities and policies of archiving and preserving the material that record our records, our existence now, and contributes to all [01:03:30] the legacies we want to leave. Awesome. Thank you. Can I just say Yeah, which is, uh, about, um, connecting up the dots beyond our known world of collectors and archivists through to the other museums and other institutions, places, universities and stuff like that and have things that's right, making those known well and sometimes and supporting [01:04:00] them to interpret them too. Yeah, Papa te papa Y places does make an effort to interpret. Whereas some places don't even start to identify things as of interest researchers into same relationships or whatever. However, we want to express it. Awesome. Thank you Came in. So these homelessness and disability were areas that [01:04:30] were looked at, and I guess these are wider society issues as well as LGBTI issues and the, um and really, it was just a concern about keeping the profile, raising the profile of of those things, um, improving the services, particularly for people with disabilities. Um, but the other thing was actually raising the quality of our life expectations. In terms of, you know, there there's life beyond [01:05:00] being hopeless, maybe in down and out if they're homeless or stuff like that or they're in that situation because financially, economically, the world's against them, that type of thing. So it's raising society's expectations of what we should be should expect. And I think it's probably us supporting our gay lesbian, um, welfare groups which exist in the community that you know they are there and encouraging [01:05:30] them, supporting them, working for them or getting involved. And the other issue was burnout, which would sort of changed around a little bit. But this was recognising people who work really hard in the community for the work that they they given. I guess the priorities were ensuring that we all take care of each other, um, each other's health risk sharing the load. Have fun, I guess might actually be quite good. But also, [01:06:00] um, having clear visions and values around the work that you're doing so that it has real meaning. And you know what? You're focusing on the not so much the burn out, but the one before, which is services and that for old people. I don't think that, um, that's something that's really had much work done on it yet. And it's another sort of end of of the sort of is can [01:06:30] be can be isolated. And it's an area where it's very difficult to get even older people interested. They they seem to want to shut their, uh, we we tried in Rainbow Wellington. There was a member of the board who really tried to get sort of an sort of an elderly gay project up, he said. Whenever he spoke to people, they just did not want to know. And it wasn't just the young ones that that said that. So that's part of the part of the whole battle. People [01:07:00] want to close their eyes, and there is to the problem until it probably hits them. And thank you, can I just just wise if someone's made a suggestion to add something, could you please whoever had that she physically add that so we don't lose any of that Killed her. Um, I'm Adrian. Um, and our our group talked mostly about infighting within our community. Um, and I think [01:07:30] this actually relates a bit to the burnout, one that just came up. But, um, just that, particularly for those of us who are working in organisations working in groups working to create events um, that's the place that I'm speaking from. Um, there's just, uh maybe I'll just tell a personal my personal story, but, um, so and I'll throw Karen in it, too. So Karen and I run, um, are part of the organising team running Wellington pride and down in the park. [01:08:00] And so a lot of what we do in particular is trying to represent put on events every year to represent the entire of the community that everyone in the community is there LGBT QI a and, you know, every letter possible, the new emerging ones that are coming all the time. And we're trying really hard to represent all of the diversity cultural age. Um, you know so many different things. And in that space, it's really difficult because a lot of groups come together [01:08:30] and are are fighting each other. There's a lot of fighting that goes on, um, and not just disagreements, but really kind of attacking each other. And there's a lot of emotional stuff happening. Um, and so we just talked a lot about that in our group. So what What are some of the solutions or suggestions for for dealing with that, Um, and some We talked a lot about what we could learn from the past. And, um, this isn't a new issue that we're We have factions or different, [01:09:00] you know, divisions in our community. But at various points in time, we've come together. We've crossed those those divisions and come together to fight against a common cause, say, for homosexual law reform or different things. Um, like marriage equality where we have these big big issues. So it's kind of like a unifying issue, and we were just talking about what? Maybe we need something like that now. And what is that one unifying issue? That or maybe multiple. Um, but what are those unifying issues for [01:09:30] our entire community? So we didn't have an answer to that, but I'm just putting that out to the room. Um, and Maybe that would help us try to start working together a bit more. Um, but we also talked about maybe having regular conferences, Um, actually calling it out, calling out the fact that we are There is a lot of this fighting going on. Um, and maybe we need to find different ways to listen to each other better and have safer spaces. And so have a space specifically for [01:10:00] that on a regular basis, maybe or once a year or whoever redirect the energy. So, actually, maybe it's OK that there's all obviously, it's OK that there's different views. Um, but how do we have a safe space for that to happen and learn about each other as the community evolves over time and changes? Yeah, because, I mean, we're talking here about all the different issues. We just happen to get this one. But all the other issues we want people to be able to come together and work together. Uh, and so that's not happening. That well, [01:10:30] uh, you know often. So what are some of the solutions to that? Um and yeah, and then this contributes to burn out. All of this stuff contributes to burn out and taking care of each other, I think is a really good thing. But often we're not taking care of each other. So how do we address that? Um, again, that's a question for the room. Oh, and there was some stuff around visibility and just, you know, who's when we're making really difficult decisions? Um, for instance, [01:11:00] another personal example. Or from the work that we do around, um, cancelling movie fundraisers, for instance. You know, this is something that we we often talk about. We'll have a fundraiser with the movie, and then you have people who say, Oh, we don't like the way that our group is being represented in that film, for instance, And then we as a committee sit around and debate it for hours. We don't just make that decision lightly. We sit around and we go OK, which way do we go with this decision? Um, and often there it's disagreements, [01:11:30] dissenting views. Some people will be unhappy if you cancel, and some people will be unhappy if you show it. So who's who do you go with in that case? And so we often end up going well, Actually, it's the people who have less power who have, um, are more vulnerable and have less visibility in our community who we end up siding with often, um, not siding with. But we go with, you know, that decision goes that way. But that's just in our our committee. But, you know, so there's just a lot. I think those [01:12:00] discussions need to happen at a wider level rather than just in our little, you know, small com committee. But maybe we should all be having those discussions as a community so that we've got these different opinions and experiences. Let's name it and then do something more positive with them. You need to just right naming it. And can I also add restorative practise? Yes. [01:12:30] And our last group. Oh, your new speakers. If you'd like to introduce yourself as well, just your name. And she came to, um so really, we were almost not quite a group of people along the way, but anyway, um, this was really my interest. There was sort of some very diverse things that I've pulled [01:13:00] in here, and so we were really talking about, um because some of them were about, um really What we don't know about the community, so it's about the doing the research. So there's the research that you're going to see, you know, all the all the things that you're going to record. And, um so, yeah, there's the oral histories of different groups. But there's also other social, uh, social research and you know, so even so, there's a lot of anecdotal evidence, you know, and comments that people make about the community, but that has not been researched properly [01:13:30] in many areas. I'm sure you're aware, you know, just looking something that I saw, um was reading about the other day that how little research had been done on suicide for, um, young or all, um, gay people. And even though it's anecdotally known that there's a lot, it's very, very hard to find that out because it's not recorded at the time. And there's all those kinds of, you know, so the research wouldn't just be purely research. It would be it would have practical, um, outcomes for gay people, [01:14:00] and that's it's who's doing the research. I mean, it's not really done through organisations doing it as individuals or, you know, through university or whatever and I don't know if I just put a big question mark about groups being involved in research. Couple of reasons, you know, not sure about the funding either, you know, as to where they come. But, I mean, it's the basis of, um, you building up a a big picture, Really? A full picture of the gay community. [01:14:30] Oh, thank you so much. Well, thank you, everybody, for your contributions. And and we believe that a lot of what we've captured in the stickers and on the papers is a type of a guide to where we're going to keep moving. But also, the conversations that you're having in the room, we believe will be part of what happens after this and how things develop in the future. [01:15:00] Uh, so a final thank you. And we hope you had fun this evening. Or at least be sure that you actually did some work and it was really valuable. Uh, as I say, we're not necessarily going to write back and report directly that this is an informal group of people who happen to be able to come tonight and were interested that there are many other people are going to feed in to different parts of the strategy. But but for sure Ends is going to be continuing [01:15:30] to work on this To for sure we'll be continuing to work on this and and through that, working with all the organisations, because I just want to do a quick recap of actually the organisations that are represented. And not necessarily that you're here with your head on to speak on their behalf, but just who's in the room? So I would just like to, uh, do a final work round to finish off. Uh so you know, and and so I'm on the peak body for youth development. [01:16:00] Uh, so I'd like to just do a quick work round of organisations um, and gay archives Violent Wellington Lesbian website. Uh, lesbian and gay are guys. It's, um really the, uh my radio programme cap gag which I do on Coast access radio, uh, Wellington Pride and out in the park, [01:16:30] uh, like Wellington Pride and Lesbian radio show. The gay fathers group and myself personally volunteer for games. I'm just an individual, but I I've become a recent negative volunteer. Thank you so much. And that's also I just wonder if we could do a quick to finish things off. And that's our night.

IRN: 2316
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/international_aids_candlelight_memorial_2019.html
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089856
TITLE: International AIDS Candlelight Memorial (2019)
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VOICES: Abby Leota; Alex Anderson; Bill Logan; Fer Dossaints; James Rice-Davies; Kevin Haunui; Lee Eklund; Matt Sharpe; The Glamaphones; Trish McBride; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Abby Leota; Alex Anderson; Aotearoa New Zealand; Big Gay Out (Auckland); Body Positive; Candlelight Memorials; Fer Dossaints; Governor-General of New Zealand; HIV / AIDS; HIV education; HIV stigma; James Rice-Davies; Lee Eklund; Matt Sharpe; NZAF Ā whina Centre; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Patsy Reddy; Positive Speakers Bureau; Positive Women Inc; PrEP (Pre-Exposure Prophylaxis); Richard Tankersley; STI; Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar; Sister Paula Brettkelly; Tararua Tramping Club; Tom O'Donoghue; Trish McBride; Undetectable = Untransmittable (U=U, campaign); Wellington
DATE: 19 May 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Tararua Tramping Club, 4 Moncrieff Street, Mount Victoria, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: No. [00:00:30] Yeah, [00:01:00] You! [00:01:30] Oh, [00:02:00] bye. [00:02:30] Yeah, one time, [00:03:00] [00:03:30] everybody. The International AIDS can Candlelight Memorial is much more than just a memorial. The international AIDS Candlelight memorial serves as a community mobilisation campaign and to raise social consciousness about HIV and AIDS. The memorial serves as an important intervention for global solidarity, breaking down barriers of stigma and discrimination [00:04:00] and giving hope to new generations. Leadership by people living with HIV and affected by HIV is important part of the international AIDS Candlelight memorial as long as the education and social interaction. Um so each year, the New Zealand uh, political parties share their vision and support for those living with HIV and their supporters. So I'd like to invite Bill, uh, to read the [00:04:30] letter from the Governor General Government House, New Zealand 36 years ago, the first candle lit march to bring AIDS out of the dark and into the light of public awareness took place in San Francisco. In the years since, the tradition of candlelight vigils and marches for AIDS awareness has served both as a memorial and as a platform [00:05:00] for activism all around the world. It is important to take a moment to think of those who are no longer with us and those for whom life with HIV AIDS is a daily reality. It is equally important to continue to push for better treatments and an end to stigmatisation for all people living with HIV A. I DS [00:05:30] treatment and knowledge of HIV AIDS has improved greatly in New Zealand since 1983. In other parts of the world, the situation is vastly different, with treatment not so easily available and people with HIV aids forced into the shadows. The theme for this year's events intensifying the Fight for health and rights is a reminder [00:06:00] that we all still need to work to keep these issues in the public eye. Lives depend on it. I send my best wishes to everyone attending this year's memorial. It signed Dame Patsy Reddy, Governor General of New Zealand. Thanks, Bill. Um, I'd like to now invite, uh, cami to read [00:06:30] a letter from our Prime Minister. This is a message from the Labour leader Jacinda Ardern for the 2019 International AIDS Candlelit Memorial Service. I'd like to send my support in a to everyone gathered for this year's international AIDS Candlelight memorial. Too many have lost loved ones and friends to AIDS. And today we remember all of those who are no longer with us. Last year we celebrated a significant drop in the number of New Zealanders diagnosed with HIV. This is good news, [00:07:00] but we know there is still more to do. We are committed to continuing this work alongside those dedicated organisations that day in and day out undertake important work on HIV and AIDS whether you're providing health care or taking part in advocacy and education. Thank you. Your efforts are saving lives, changing attitudes and making a difference. I'd also like to acknowledge all those New Zealanders living with HIV. I hope those perspectives and experience you bring lead [00:07:30] to changes that we need. I'm proud of the work our government has done in this space, including making sure prep is funded by I look forward to continuing this work in the year ahead. Together we can end the transmission of HIV and make sure everyone is able to receive the health care and support they need. That's coming. Thank you. Um, there are other letters from, uh, the political parties, uh, that are on display in the entrance of the hall. [00:08:00] Um, I'd like to, uh, invite, uh, Trish to stage play. So, uh, Trish has an experience of a spiritual guide. Chaplain in mental health Con, uh, context counsellor. Uh, educator and writer Trish will speak about her experiences and involvement in the community. Over to you, my love. Thank you. [00:08:30] I feel very humble after watching the stories and simply being asked to come and talk to you tonight. I was a volunteer at our through the most of the 19 nineties. It was a huge learning curve for me and some very precious memories of the things that happened that I attended [00:09:00] or became involved in or learned. The first one I want to talk about is my first candlelight memorial 1991. Parliament grounds. Da scary, actually. And the speeches, Doctor Rodenberg saying there's a cure for AIDS. [00:09:30] It's love because love takes away the fear. Tom O'Donoghue, They called him of the community, saying I am a gay man and I'm HIV positive. I've never heard anyone saying that before. Ever let alone in front of an audience of I don't know, 500 1000. A lot of people [00:10:00] and then up the main driveway of Parliament and down the steps from behind the General Assembly Library came this astonishing spectacle. Two processions of people with flaming torches. Now they sticks this long and flames that long. It was spine [00:10:30] tingling, and it was a real mediaeval spectacle. And these people stood in a circle on the forecourt of Parliament, and the 179 names of people who had died in New Zealand at that point were read out. And then towards the end of that part of the ceremony, [00:11:00] the bells at Saint Paul's Cathedral told there was a choir singing grant us peace. And then there were the fireworks, the great stars of celebration and hope. So it was just an amazing experience for me, of a community. Truth speaking at the time when truth speaking had its significant [00:11:30] hazards. Now a bit more about Tom. He was an educator. He touched people in all sorts of settings. He spoke in prisoners. He talked to the police to educate them. He went to Parliament and lobbied for the rights and legislation, and his passion was encouraging [00:12:00] people in disclosure because living with the burden of secrecy was too hard, and I'd encourage you to have a look at him online and just see the breadth of this man's, um, experience and wisdom. Um, his funeral at Old Saint Paul's. He was six years from diagnosis in 88 through to 94 people from so many walks [00:12:30] of life, Alexis, a Trans woman, said. He stopped me committing suicide. He taught me to look inside myself, throw away the rubbish and treasure the rest. Catherine O'Regan, who was the minister of Health at that stage, she cried because he'd made such a huge impression on her with his multiple visits to her office. [00:13:00] So yes, look up, one of your yeah, four fathers, Another of the heroes. Um, the other person that I wanted to talk about is Paula Brett Kelly, who was a tiny little Catholic nun who was quite terrified when she offered herself as a volunteer somewhere in the late eighties. She had been a teacher, [00:13:30] and she became the education officer and human rights officer for a centre. She, um yes, she just became a heart of that of that community. She mentored me when I was terrified and She said to me, You get in there and you love and you will be the one to gain. And so it was. So Paula [00:14:00] was blessing couples back in the 19 eighties. I don't know that the cardinal was very chuffed, but, um, Paula was Paula and she knew truth when she saw it when she heard it when she listened to the stories and she taught me a great deal. So I just want to encourage all of you because the [00:14:30] community I encountered at that point was so accepting, so focused on preserving and honouring Mana was so focused on courage of being together and even back then was looking at the fight for health and rights. So the other [00:15:00] thing that I wanted to say about Paula was that in the early days, she, um and others recognised that this concerned women as well. Two things that she was part of initiating. One was a support group for the moms, the sisters, the wives, the girlfriends and the first two or three women. While I was there who were HIV positive because [00:15:30] it hadn't been a virus that affected women until people started going Oh yes, it does. And the other thing was, um, beginning a an information process for women. And so there was a committee again that I was a tiny part of where Catherine Healey and Paula and a few other health related people put together. [00:16:00] The first information, I think, in the country for women and AIDS. So I'd like to kind of give this to anybody here who's interested in that story. So yes, the courage, yes, the love and I just want to say, encourage you to honour the history that you've seen the history of the people here in Wellington. [00:16:30] It's your history. And while you are busy intensifying the right for fight for health and rights, keep treasuring where you've come from. Keep treasuring the people who have been the heroes in the community here in Wellington. And so just keep that of love, of respect, of current but most of all, the love because [00:17:00] love takes away the fear. Thank you, Trish. Ok, so tonight, uh, we have members of the health and support service sectors. Um, here to answer some questions from the community and leading this panel is Richard tankers. Um, so Richard is a marriage celebrant with a diverse, uh, with a diverse work [00:17:30] and life experience in different cultures in health, human rights and social services in administration, event management, theatre and community development. Really? That's fabulous. Yeah, but you're still doing it, though. You you run rings around some of us young as humans, like, come young. Um, including within, but in no way limited to iwi Maori and LGBT community. Sir Richard over to [00:18:00] you, darling of And, uh, first of all, um, thank you to the organising group for inviting me to take a part. Uh, in this, um, this evening's memorial. Um, and I feel pretty. I've only been living in Wellington for six months, so, uh, to get an invite at such, uh, after such a short tenure is, um, very flattering. So thank you very much. Um, So today's questions were compiled by members of the community, and there will be time for some audience [00:18:30] participation at the end. Um, the first set of questions will be directed to individual members of the panel, followed by, um, a set of statements with questions to the panel as a whole. Um, and when panellists introduce themselves, I will invite them, uh, to, uh well, sorry when they speak. Um, I'll, uh First, I'll ask them to let us know if they're interested in taking individual questions over coffee later on. Um and and that way, uh, we'll increase [00:19:00] the, uh, engagement with our with our audience. Um, but, uh, during the session, I am gonna go going to ask panellists to be pretty brief in their answers, given that we've got quite a few questions. Um, we've got four panellists and theoretic use this, but it's gonna last 25 minutes. So, um uh, I look forward to, uh, seeing if we can manage that. But anyway, in no particular order, I'm going to introduce our panellists, Abby Leota, having a career in both the not for profit, not for profit and private sectors. Abby [00:19:30] is motivated by people and the power of a voice. She's also passionate about the Positive Speakers Bureau programme. Would you please give her a hand? Alex Anderson, NZAF, uh, health regional manager, working with both the Wellington Centre and te Christchurch teams to help ensure they offer a range of services that meet the needs of their priority populations. Please, uh welcome Alex. [00:20:00] Matt Sharp is, uh, as you've seen the co-founder of the Po Toi Toi project and Wellington's peer Navigator for Bos Body Positive. This role supports newly diagnosed people with HIV. Matt is also a host for the monthly body Positive social and meet up at S and M, please. A hand for Matt. And last but not least, James Rice Davies is a nurse specialist in mental health, [00:20:30] palliative care and HIV and remains very passionate about HIV. After 30 years of working in this area, please, would you give him a round of applause? Right. Well, I'm gonna sit down now, and I'm gonna ask my questions from the chair. They call it cheering, don't they? Right. OK, the first question is for Abby. Sorry. The first question is for Alex. I went off the script. Alex, What can we do to reduce stigma against people [00:21:00] living with HIV? Yeah, this is a really big question. I think, um, I might actually give each of the panel members a really quick moment to speak about this because each of the organisations is doing something really special. The one thing I'll quickly say is that, um, stigma looks different in every single space. And I think there's a huge difference between stigma, say, in the workplace or, um, other places that you may face in society and that online, particularly with men who have sex with men, say on grind or in other spaces. And I'm really very thoughtful about [00:21:30] that. Um, you know, we did some great stuff this year, uh, with the body positive around addressing stigma based on the fact that a Brunton survey said that, uh, 46% of people were concerned if someone with HIV cooked them food. And so working with Bo body positive this year at the big day out, we were able to deliver a store with exactly that. And really, um, confront those ideas and and that stigma, uh, straight on head on. Uh, so some of the things we're doing to kind of reduce stigma, [00:22:00] I guess just having our social group really helps. Um, people. It's quite an open forum where people can come and participate, um, and feel included in the community. Um, the project came out of a, um um a workshop about how we can reduce stigma in our society and in our community. So that's one project that kind of came into fruition. And, of course, um, the Positive Speakers Bureau is about empowering people living with HIV to be the educators and be the face of HIV, [00:22:30] um, to help reduce stigma. So thank you. Change. OK, all good. I'm gonna follow up now with a question for Matt. What is U equals you. So U equals, um And [00:23:00] so, uh, and undetectable equals IV stigma improve the lives of people living with HIV and to end the global HIV epidemic. Thank you. Thank you. So if you hand the microphone to Abby, ey might tell us how has, uh, U equals you impacted on couples having Children? Um, so you equals you has actually been practised [00:23:30] in the heterosexual community around, um, reproductive health and rights, I think for for at least since 2008 with this study, Um, So what you equals you has done for us has ratified. Um, what a practise that we've been doing and really validated that and enforced. Um uh, I guess that the message that it's actually ok, um, but primarily I think it's, uh, changed. The, uh, couples living in fear of [00:24:00] infecting. Um, you know, a loved one. And I think for anyone living with HIV, we relate that, um, nobody ever wants to hurt someone they love and and having not having to live in that fear anymore. Um, and that they can have a beautiful and loving um, relationship. Thank you. While we're talking, um, about U equals you. Maybe James could, uh, answer a question for us. Um, James is the U equals U and prep [00:24:30] campaign influencing the rise in other STD S. And if yes, why do you believe this to be true? Uh, I'll ignore the second part because, um, my thought is Is that, um hey, you go. You isn't isn't, um, increasing the rate of SD I or the use of prep? Um, my glass tends to be half full. And [00:25:00] my thought is Is that, um, people who are on the prep programme are also having regular sexual health checkups, um, on a three monthly basis as a way forward of getting their prep script as such. So, if anything, I think what we should be looking at is that prep as such is engaging people around their sexual health for the first time, we've got a programme that engages people to come into the health services, get a full [00:25:30] ST I screen and pick up their prep script if that's what they're there for. Um, I think I think it's a way, a way forward, rather than seeing it as what some people see it as being a licence just to have lots of unprotected sex and and potentially that the rate of his SDIS will rise. Um, I'm not. I'm not convinced that's the case. Now, if you hang on to the microphone, I might actually follow up with a a second question for you. Um, James, are [00:26:00] there laws in New Zealand that protect the confidentiality and human rights of people living with HIV? I suppose the the laws that we have in New Zealand and we're lucky compared to other countries in the world is is that for example, um, same sex relationships, you don't go to prison, uh, sex work. You don't go to prison, and I suppose from that point of view we do have laws that protect human rights. In that way, [00:26:30] those groups can be overly affected by the rate of HIV But at least when they access healthcare, they're not frightened that they're then going to be put in prison on top of that. So I suppose, from a point of view of human rights, I suppose, living in New Zealand, I suppose we do have the law, some good basic laws that protect us. Um, and as far as confidentiality is concerned, I don't think there's any extra laws as far as confidentiality [00:27:00] is concerned around HIV Uh, but, um, in a health care setting. But obviously anybody with any type of diagnosis who attends a service, whether it's for breast cancer or or whether it's, you know, to, you know, to have the, you know, a new hip The confidentiality is such is that if you're caring for that person, you cannot disclose to your friends or loved ones when you go home, those the [00:27:30] people's names that you've been looking at after at work. So, to my knowledge, there isn't anything extra that protects HIV as code. Isn't it the name of the protecting, uh, legislation or the code that comes out of the Health Privacy Act? Yeah, OK, uh, Matt, time for another question for Matt. Um and it's a it's a it's a two pronged one. Well, Matt, what's the focus of support networks like Body Positive and the [00:28:00] AIDS Foundation? Now, the number of HIV cases has been declining. And will these support networks look further? A field? Now there are cases of other untreatable STD S appearing in New Zealand. Two prongs. Ok, um, first question, um, so our work really focuses on, um, supporting people to engage and remain in care. Um, so we work working on, um, other parts of their lives, which may affect the ability to focus on their health. Um, such as stigma, which we talked about before. Loneliness, [00:28:30] isolation, um, addiction issues, mental health, um, issues and other kind of things like that. Um, And for the second part of the question, um, syphilis is quite an epidemic, um, in New Zealand at the moment. Especially among, um, um, men having sex with men. Um, so removing these barriers, um, that people can get tested and treated easily. The things like HIV, hep C. Um, syphilis is important. Um, for our entire community. Um, [00:29:00] there's actually been two cases of antibacterial resistant gonorrhoea recorded in Australia, and both treated. Um, not in New Zealand so far. Um, but it's important that we don't build, uh, build fear around, um STIs, um, and just encourage people to engage in testing and treatment and not be afraid to notify their partners and get tested as well. Did any of the other organisations want to respond to that question? I know it was directed at Matt, but no. Or if [00:29:30] you're happy with the answer, we can move on as an exceptional answer. I just want to say that, really, all of our services are funded by the Ministry of Health and they almost set, uh, because of the funding, what we do and don't in regards to priority populations. Um, look, we'd all love to work with as many people as we can and and keep this fight, But, uh, unless we get the money to do the work, we just keep stretching our resources thinner and thinner and and and I guess that's something that we're all you know continually thinking about. I can't speak to the others, but we've not had a, uh, increase in our funding for over 10 years. [00:30:00] So we're working on the same money um And so it's, you know, really tight. Thank you. Um, Abby. Question for you. Uh, can a woman living with HIV pass the virus on to her unborn baby? Um, if a woman is on effective, um, treatment, the the risk is less than 1%. Unfortunately for those that don't know that they're HIV positive or, um, don't have access to treatment. Um, [00:30:30] the risk range ranges between 25 and 45%. So, really, we're looking at risks. If you're on anti, um, medication that there's it's almost cancels out any risk. So in New Zealand, uh, when we've known that moms have been HIV positive, there's been no babies born, uh, in New Zealand. HIV positive. Uh, since I can't remember the exact date for a very long time, So yeah, it's it's looking very good. Thank you very much. We're going now [00:31:00] to our last of the, uh, individual questions, and we're back to Alex. And I've kept you for last because this is a This is a looking forward question. Um, Alex, what's next on the campaign trail for HIV HIV awareness in New Zealand, I can only speak from the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, and you might want to chuck some stuff in, um, afterwards. Three years ago, we had a big change. Transformationally in regards of an organisation with historically been HIV prevention and really focusing on condoms. [00:31:30] Uh, luckily, we're getting way more HIV prevention tools in our, um, belts now. And so when we look at things like, uh, still condoms, but, uh, U equals you, uh, we look at tests or treatment as prevention. Um, we look at, you know, um, keeping people engaged with health care and promoting testing. Um, there's probably something really else I'm missing. Prep, of course. How can I forget that? You know, these are these are tools that are really changing the landscape. And it's really about how do we communicate this So that, um, the average [00:32:00] New Zealander actually understands that because I think this loops back to stigma. I've recently moved down to Wellington. I want to share a really quick story with you. Um, I was living with my niece. Um, really smart switched on young lady and her partner, and they're asking me So you know, what is this? What do you actually do and what's changed? And I'm like, Well, do you know about prep? And this is the medication. This is what it does. And I could literally hear their brain cells exploding like you know. Oh, my God. You mean that you can take medication now and you're sexually at no risk of passing this on? Oh, you know, this this [00:32:30] the ideas that we have in our society for a large chunk of people are very outdated. And so I believe the more we can work on the general population level as well as those that are most impacted by HIV is really the the key work we need to do. Yeah. Thank you. It's about making our service more accessible and acceptable to everybody. I guess in a nutshell. We're happy to move on from that point. Thank you very much. So we've got, um we can do a time check with our organisers one more minute. [00:33:00] Just when we get to the question for the whole panel, he says I've got one more minute. So, uh, this is for each of your organisations. How do you evaluate programmes that you've instigated to affect change? And is it uh is it internal or external and independent. So what are your evaluation programmes like for the for the work that you do very briefly from from a health care point of view, then obviously what we're able to do is monitor that, uh, there's 430 people [00:33:30] in the Wellington region who are diagnosed with HIV and about 80 people who aren't diagnosed. Uh, for the 430 people who attend the Wellington service, then, um, going back to the U equals U policy is that 97 per cent of all our patients hit undetectable viral load, no virus in their blood. So that's easy. From a point of view of saying, you know, there's very few people who choose not to take treatment after diagnosis, and the people who do take [00:34:00] treatment have no virus in their blood. They haven't got rid of it, but they've been able to switch it off and put it to sleep. And that's because they take treatment daily. Um, so from that point of view, Wellington and the whole of New Zealand does very well as far as hitting undetectable levels for the people who engage in care so clinical follow up evaluation techniques. Um, Yep. Um, so for those people who are using our services for testing or for accessing therapeutic care, um, so be that a counsellor. They we ask [00:34:30] them to provide us feedback at the end of their their care. So we're really keen to Are we working for you as as what we're doing accessible and acceptable. Um, but we also, uh, every six months, uh, where a survey goes out and it's for 1000 MS M to understand are our social media messages getting out there in regards to, uh, HIV prevention tools? And how is this impacting behaviour change in regards to adopting some of those And that's handled by an external company, uh, surveys rather than so we we send those out. But there was also [00:35:00] one other piece of that which was the gaps and go survey, which was an externally funded by the Ministry of Health. And unfortunately, it stopped about four years ago. I have heard the local government well, the government is going to reengage this fingers crossed. They keep their, uh, their promise because it really is an exceptionally valuable tool to look into the insights of MS M. Um, so body positive usually works at the individual level. Um, and assessment is performed internally with each person to assess how invention, uh, has worked. Usually, we continue to [00:35:30] be engaged with individuals into a satisfactory outcome. Um, as has occurred. Um, Just to follow up on that, um, also, we engage with the New Zealand Stigma index, which will, um, provide a baseline of stigma as experienced by individual people living with HIV and will be able to track and change over time. Um, specifically the Positive Speakers Bureau. We do a function called triangulation. I love that word. Um, where we, [00:36:00] um So we offer a free service, um, where they are trained speakers and we gather data. So feedback from the host, the person that's booked, um, to make sure that we're meeting the expectations, we get feedback from the audience, um, to see how, um impacted them or affected them. And we also asked the speaker because, um, you know, and then we look at all of that data together, um, to see, um, if if we felt that it met, met what we were trying to achieve, OK, I've got one more question for the whole panel. You've [00:36:30] got 15 seconds each. We'll start with Abby. OK? What are we doing To encourage the majority of people living in stable relationships unaware of their partner's status to get tested. What are we doing to encourage those Those? Uh, sure. Look, um, New Zealand has lost, uh, two women to aids. Um, undiagnosed late diagnosis in the last couple of years. And so we've done recently done a campaign around Tonya, uh, and her legacy of her family. And so it's just around, um, get [00:37:00] tested. You know, women get HIV, too. Um And you know, I always say, if you want to test me, then you know why. Why? Why wouldn't you Why wouldn't you test somebody? So yeah, um, with you, um, most people living with HIV and so with US U and most people living with IV are in stable relationships and are not infectious. Um, by removing the stigma around HIV, I would assume that the partner is aware of the status and has been engaged in testing [00:37:30] already. Um, ongoing testing isn't necessary as S EU really does work. Um, for us in that space, we have an annual uh, drive on testing, which goes out to a wide range of people. We're also doing some stuff around home testing kits. We were able to send kits out to anywhere in New Zealand that allow people to create the do the test by themselves at home, so that can be right up to. So it's about getting tests to those that are dispersed and maybe be able, aren't aren't able to access. Um, testing. [00:38:00] From my point of view, it's more around education for health care providers, and there's still a lot of barriers. As far as offering HIV test is concerned, even in GP, Practise says, because there is very much a 19 eighties 19 nineties thinking about HIV. So it's from my point of view, it's more around education of healthcare providers and trying to lower some of those barriers and make and facilitating more easier access to testing. [00:38:30] Thank you. Well, that comes to the end of our formal questions that were submitted by the community before we began the the event. Um, just wondering if we do have a couple of minutes for one or two questions from the floor. Um, if anyone's, uh would like to ask a question or make a comment. Then there's some space. Now, um, for you to do that, do you think that there will be a law change where [00:39:00] now that HIV positive people have to declare the state as if they do use condom condom sex. But now that you equals you is around and they know that they're undetectable. Will that be a law change? Do you, In your opinion, I think potentially what will happen is is that, um So what Lee's referring to is that you don't have to disclose your HIV status as long as you're using condoms. Yeah, but you could [00:39:30] end up going to court if you didn't use condoms and didn't disclose with the U equals you or undetectable viral load. It would be nice that we if we could change the law now to say that if somebody's undetectable, they can't pass on HIV. So why would they end up in court? I think most probably what will end up happening is is that somebody will end up going to court, who's undetectable, who hasn't passed it on, and that [00:40:00] will make the change rather than us doing something proactively, if you see what I mean. I think that's the sad bit of it in the pan that France may have done some stuff in there. I had a funny feeling. France is actually really leading this area. And I I remember reading something that they've actually progressed some laws around us, so I watched the space. I think people are already moving on this, some other. Yeah, I'd like it. Um, I'd like [00:40:30] it to be recognised by the Ministry of Health as as a as a treatment, uh, preventive treatment first. And then, um, and then look to to to for the law to trickle down. But it's a proactive approach rather than a reactive. Yeah. Thank you. I just wanted to ask, um, about, uh what sort of news do we have, uh, regarding a potential cure or next generation, [00:41:00] uh, medications. Stuff like that? Um, yeah, cure wise. You know, every if you if you sort of think every 10 years, there has been a huge change in HIV care. So when I started in the eighties, everybody just died. We didn't have any treatment. It was a life threatening illness. People just died. Now you're saying, You know, 35 years later, you're saying on a diagnosis if if early, then you've got a normal life [00:41:30] expectancy, I'm assuming that in the next decade we'll have something that either can turn it off completely so you don't have to take daily treatment, potentially a vaccine and and perhaps some way of clearing, uh, HIV out of sanctuary sites. Um, but all of H I HIV is is is unusual in the fact that it it doesn't replicate well, so you have different viruses in the blood, so it's hard to get a vaccine because if you think of it as a lock and [00:42:00] a key situation, the lock keeps changing all the time. So it's very difficult for scientists to come up with something that fits several different locks when, rather than one key to fit one lock. And that's where the the crunch happens. But people are still working on it and and looking at how you know how we can clear it out or switch it off, I think that might be time that I stand up and, um, on your behalf would like to thank our panellists. So if you [00:42:30] could please give them around the floor. So you've been with, uh, James Rise Davies, Matt Sharp, Alex Anderson and Abby Leota. Thank you very much. Fabulous. So I'm going to invite, um, uh, one of our young speakers, So I want to invite do, um, So fair was born in Argentina, and he lived in Mexico [00:43:00] and recently travelled around the world Fair is a LGBTI Q plus a musician, human rights activist and animal rights activist for identifies as a feminist. I you my love. Hi. Thank you so much. Uh, to everyone for being here [00:43:30] and caring, Uh, thank you to everyone involved in this beautiful, uh, memorial. I just wanna share some thoughts with you and some memories. Um, So when I was around nine years old, someone told me that, um, if I was gay, I would, uh, get ate and die, and it made me cry. Um, years later, Um, I went to this sex education class, [00:44:00] and they barely mention HIV as an STD. And I also remember a lot of people using, um, HIV and AIDS as an insult. So naturally, I grew up scared of it, even though I didn't really know what it was or the difference between one and the other. Um, so years later, whenever I would go get tested, I would panic. And it was [00:44:30] really difficult. And I would think, um, things like I don't really wanna know. I'd rather not know I kill myself if I get it. This is the worst thing that could happen to me and stuff like that. So it was very, very, very difficult. Um, when I was invited, um, to come here tonight and and speak here, which I feel very honoured. Thank you so much. Um, [00:45:00] I wanted to do a little research, so I, uh, went on the Internet, of course. And I also had a conversation with some friends just to see what have changed in the last years. And I was I couldn't believe it when I talked with grown up people, um, professionals, artists, uh, role models for kids and people who has travelled the world educated people. And they were [00:45:30] telling me stuff like, um, I don't wanna get tested. I don't know the difference between, uh, any kind of STD SI. I have a risky behaviour, but I'm I'm afraid of it and I don't wanna know and I'd rather not know. And I was like, uh, some people even would tell me like that. That's for gay people or promiscuous people. So they were so wrong and I couldn't believe it, like it was like being on a time [00:46:00] capsule. Um, then I went on the internet and I was reading the news. And there are some countries, like, uh, well, a lot of countries, actually. But for example, Mexico or Argentina, which now are struggling to provide, uh, antiretrovirals and other medication related to SC DS forget about preps. Uh, [00:46:30] so there are people on the street telling the government that they need to deal with it. And whenever I would go to the comments, there were again all of these messages filled with hatred, uh, people wishing, uh, people to die and using HIV and AIDS as an insult again. So I started wondering, like, how do we [00:47:00] really end HIV if one of the root, uh, issues with it is still there and nothing has changed? Uh, which is the lack of empathy and the lack of tolerance and the lack of love and, uh, the stigma? Um, it's Yeah, it's actually very, very sad. Um, we need to fight [00:47:30] all of this. So I would like to encourage all of you to become activists and to recruit other people and just normalise conversations about STD S because it's still a taboo. It's still a taboo. There's a lot of people who just try to look the other way because it's uncomfortable to talk about this. So if we start normalising this, we're gonna be closer [00:48:00] to, uh, a potential, uh, heal Because, as he said, darling, and it was beautiful, all love, um can kill, hate and and fear We need to end fear and we need to end with the HIV closet and all kind of STD S closet. Um so first things first, Uh, um, I'm an activist. I I [00:48:30] and I'm a musician. I've written songs about abuse, and, uh, I've given speeches about, um, abortion, Um, LGBTI Q rights. And I've never talked about HIV before. So, um, I guess this is my chance. Um yeah, I. I was diagnosed in 2014 [00:49:00] and I was so depressed for three months I thought my life was over. I thought I couldn't travel anymore. And I thought I would never have a partner. Um, truth is, um I started travelling more than ever since that I started having a healthier lifestyle, and I also started having more meaningful relationships with others and with myself [00:49:30] because I became more aware and more conscious of who I am and what I want. Um, there are a lot of things that are changing in the world and not in a good way. Uh, there are some leaders in the world who have an speech of hatred and fascism, so we need to stand together, and we need to [00:50:00] to to face it and fight it. We need to do that. Uh, because we can't keep going backwards or keep stuck. Uh, so the time is now and it's in our hands. That's pretty much it. Thank you so much. Uh, OK, [00:50:30] so now it's time to reflect, uh, remember and celebrate the lives of our friends, partners and family members that are no longer with us, as well as remembering those who still struggle with stigma and lack of support. There is still so much work to be done to break down the barriers of stigma and misconception in today's world, today's memorial has highlighted the struggle of other nations with human [00:51:00] rights and access to HIV and AIDS support. Members of the community will now present four candles representing our solidarity and support of all nations struggling with human rights, lack of HIV AIDS, support and medications. So I'd like to invite up to present a candle presenting human rights. [00:51:30] Next person I'd like to is glacier to present the candle representing access to medication just at the back of the room there love to go around the back and come forward. The next person I'd like to invite up is Phil to present a candle representing access to education. And, um, I'd like to invite the glamour phones to present a candle for basic [00:52:00] human needs. OK, Lighting of the candles represents our memories of those who have passed, as well as to raise awareness and hope for the future. We now invite you to place names on the memorial tree at the at the hall entrance and then proceed to the memorial tables to light your candles. The memorial book is located [00:52:30] at the entrance way. For those who want to write a message. [00:53:00] [00:53:30] [00:54:00] Um, so we now invite er anyone who would like to say anything anyone, be I. I just want to If I may say something, we've been bloody successful. Look, I know that there's a hell of a lot of work to be done. [00:54:30] I know that it's still really hard. I know that there's still people hurting. I know that there's still a great deal of stigma. But when we started out, fuck, it was a lot worse. You know, there were. I know I [00:55:00] can I can list over 50 names of friends who died in this generation. Thank God around that numbers of New Zealanders who die We have made immense strides and that is your victory. [00:55:30] It's really, really good work that is being done and has been done. And may it continue. Thanks. I want to give three fold. Thanks. First of all, thanks for the who died over 20 years ago. He is my beautiful [00:56:00] butterfly, my monarch. I still see him very often and I'll thank him for the memory and the joy that he has given me and many others. Then I'd like to thank the organisations that have helped him the prostitutes collective, the AIDS Foundation. And we went together for the various times that he wanted to be tested and was too frightened to go by himself. These organisations are ongoing and I'd like to thank [00:56:30] you for the help that you have given him while he was still with us even though it was a long time ago. And thirdly, I'd like to thank you for organising the continuation of these evenings, which gives me the opportunity to give a little tear of thanks and memory. Thank you. [00:57:00] That's it for the evening. So I'd really like to thank you for coming to these, um the candle memorials. And Jared, you done an amazing job, darling. You have to say so because he I'm good. Don't worry for not forgetting it and also the rest of the team for helping out in the kitchen also organise it and to our run to round applause. Thank you. You're welcome. And for [00:57:30] MC. Thanks. Thanks, Jay. This is your life. Thanks, love. And just to, um the speeches that have been given tonight, Uh, but also to, um, acknowledge that in, uh, that we've, uh, visited. Been visited for a short time by those people that, uh [00:58:00] we, uh, want to remember. Uh, but we also now say to those that we are remembering Go back to your place and we'll call you again and we'll join together again. But leave those people to those people and us to ourselves Here, Uh, and as we say in Maori, [00:58:30] I good, Thanks. 10 9. What? Damn. [00:59:00] Yeah. P Two [00:59:30] No [01:00:00] fun Me? [01:00:30] [01:01:00] Yeah, OK, good. I'm sorry.

IRN: 2094
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/poutokomanawa_carmen_rupe_generation_storytelling.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004574
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089868
TITLE: Poutokomanawa: The Carmen Rupe Generation - storytelling
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Chanel Hati; Georgina Beyer; Kay'la Riarn; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 10 o'clock closing; 1950s; 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; 2010s; African Room (Carmen's International Coffee Lounge); Alfies 1; Alfies 2; Aotearoa New Zealand; Arthur Baysting; Arthur Porritt; Auckland; Australia; Barry Crump; Basin Reserve; Bellamys; Big Teds; Bisexual flag; Bistro bar; Bloomers Review (Alfies); Bojangles; Boy George; Buckwheat; Carmen Miranda; Carmen Rupe; Carmen's Curio Shop (second location); Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Carol de Winter; Carterton; Casper's Bar and Cafe; Chanel Hati; Chrissy Witoko; Civil Union Act (2004); Club Exotic; Club Exotique; Colin Moyle; Criminal Records (Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences) Act 2018; Cuba Street; David Lange; Destiny Church; Dorian Society; Egyptian Room (Carmen's International Coffee Lounge); Egyptian Tearooms; Elizabeth Kerekere; Evergreen Coffee House; Flesh (Auckland); From the Hutt Valley to Hawaii (documentary); Gary Glitter; Georgina Beyer; Golden Stiletto Awards (Auckland); Gypsy (Wellington); Hedy Lamarr; Helen Clark; Human Rights Act (1993); ILGA World; ILGA World Conference (2019); Intersex flag; Jacquie Grant; Karangahape Road; Kay'la Riarn; Kelly Ellis; LV Martin and Sons; Lola (Wellington); Loreena (Wellington); Lou Reed; Mae West; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Marion Street; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Massey University; Member of Parliament; Michael Fowler; Mr Asia drug syndicate; NZ Truth; New Zealand Portrait Gallery; Niccole Duval; Oaks Coffee Shop; Parliament buildings; Paul Fitzharris; Phyliss Munro; Playgirls (revue); Pose (tv series); Poutokomanawa: The Carmen Rupe Generation (exhibition, 2019); Privileges Committee; Prostitution Reform Act (2003); Rainbow Crossing (Wellington); Rainbow Room; Rainbow flag; Rangi Carroll; Red Mole (performance group); Relationships (Statutory References) Act 2005; Rion McKenzie; Robert Jones; Robert Muldoon; Roy Stacey; Royal Oak Hotel; Salvation Army Citadel; Staircase nightclub; Sunset Strip; Sydney; Taumarunui; Tavern bar (Royal Oak Hotel); The Balcony / Le Balcon; The Boatshed; The Rocky Horror Picture Show; Tim Barnett; Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); Transgender flag; Trevor Morley; Victoria Street; Vivian Street; Wally Martin; Wayne Mapp; Wellington; Willis Street; Women's Movement; Yvette Kennedy; alcohol; alcohol laws; alcohol license; arrest; attitude; attitudinal change; breasts; busted; civil unions; closet; coffin; courts; discrimination; drag; drugs; dyslexia; exotic dancer; expungement; family; felonious intent; female impersonation; flags; fur coat; gay; gender reassignment surgery; ghetto blaster; hawking; helmet; homosexual law reform; identity documents; kapa haka; legacy; lesbian; manaakitanga; marriage equality; mayor; media; milk treatment station (Wellington); night porter; paper lantern; plucked; police; rogue and vagabond; roller; safe house; safe space; scum; sex work; singing; slap; snake dancing; stigma; toasted sandwich; traffic light; trans; trans visibility; transgender; unspring; velvet painting; visibility; wig
DATE: 19 October 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: New Zealand Portrait Gallery, Shed 11/60 Lady Elizabeth Lane, Pipitea, Wellington
CONTEXT: As part of the exhibition Poutokomanawa: The Carmen Rupe Generation, community members came together to recount stories of people, places and events in Wellington in the 1960s and 1970s. A special thank you to the organisers and speakers for allowing this event to be recorded and shared. This storytelling event also marked the 800th audio recording for PrideNZ. com
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Good afternoon. It's great to see you all here. A user that could make it. And I gather that you obviously have seen the exhibition. Um, it was an honour to be here to do the launch of the exhibition with my favourite friend Georgina. And I can honestly say the Carmen era the Lost Generation was absolutely fantastic and I I just wanna, um I think what we're basically here to do this afternoon is to relate a few stories of that we can remember from our time at Carmen's Coffee Lounge. And I'm sure Georgina has got a few stories. And Kayla and of course, [00:00:30] um, Chanel as well. Um, for me, it started many, many years ago, um, as, um a AAA brief, quick history II. I was fortunate to have a documentary done about me, um, by the former television school, and it was called from the Hutt Valley, took away and, um, humble beginnings, uh, left home at a very, very early age and hit Wellington and, uh, got a job working in, uh, the oaks, the Royal Oak Hotel, which is synonymous history in Wellington. And of course, that's, um, where [00:01:00] I first met Georgina. And, um, I was working up in the, uh, oaks coffee shop in the Royal Oak Hotel. Georgina was the night porter, and we had some fun times there. And, of course, this was the times The early days when, um, 10 o'clock closing was around in those days and we'd all scarf off home. Georgina and I were fanning up on Buller Street with our dear friend R on McKenzie, who also he worked at the club exotic. He was the one of the male dancers up there, and we'd we'd leave, we'd leave work, we'd race home, throw on some drag, and then we'd go up to Buller Street, [00:01:30] throw on some drag, and then we'd hit down and we'd go and hit all the clubs we'd go to, like, the sunset we'd go down to, um uh, Ali bars the cave. Um, and of course, inevitably would always end up at Carmen's coffee lounge. Um, and, um, I never thought that all these years later, um, I'd be standing here talking about a bit of history, um, a part of our history that made us all very, very street wise. Um, I met some amazing people would would be one of them a few years [00:02:00] later. Um, but some amazing afternoon. Come on. And, darling, we're just starting, baby, sit down, pull up and feel and relax. Um, uh, I met him at Carmen's Coffee Lounge was just the most outs. And when you were young and naive, we were 16 17 and and, um, we'd throw our drag and we thought we were shit hot. We were hot stuff, you know, We'd go to the bars and clubs and drag. Then we'd end down at Carmen's and the famous toasted sandwiches. And, of course, if you wanted a little bourbon or a little whiskey would come out in the teapot with the car was really [00:02:30] nice and magic. And of course, in those days we were all cracking it to earn a living. None of us had really jobs. We were working in the oaks. We weren't earning a top dollar. Then it was, you know, pretty poor money, working in a coffee shop and as a night. But we'd go down there and, um, Carmen always made us feel extremely welcome. The younger you were should take you under her wing and look after you and it would be sitting down there and dragged. Should have a little coffee cup system. We should have a coffee cup upside down with a handle facing right mean that the client would like a transgender. Or if [00:03:00] it was standing up with a handle facing the opposite direction. He wanted a AAA female impersonator with a Penis. You know, that sort of code thing was happening. It was magic. And Carmen would quite often walk up to you and say, Excuse me, darling, I think there's a gentleman over there would like to see you. So you'd go, You'd go and sit down at the table with the with the gentleman and have coffee with them. More nice little bourbon or something out of a teapot. It was absolutely fantastic. And then you'd strike up your deal and you'd make the money for the night. That's how we paid our rent in those days. It was fantastic. There was [00:03:30] so many, many characters that we enjoyed working at Carmen's coffee lounge. Um, I think that there was, uh, one I call the most amazing Lola, Um, who was, uh, worked. And Lola was a little, um without being disrespectful A little bit dipsy. Um, but, um, she thought she was glamorous. She was fantastic. And she should be in the kitchen and she'd have a she'd be doing the dishes and she'd have her her her long gloves on, and she'd have her rubber gloves over her normal gloves while she's doing the dishes. But she'd have all her rings on the outside of the rubber [00:04:00] gloves so everybody else could still see her jewellery. So Lola was an amazing character. She was, um, as I said, she did the dishes with the little rubber gloves on and her jewellery on the outside. And, um, every in the in the old days, up in, um to, uh, to street where now where the, um the warehouse stationery is that used to be the old milk treatment station. And, uh, where the milk was bottled and delivered around to the various places and milk trucks would come and go. And, of course, every morning [00:04:30] at two o'clock in the morning would go go down to the milk treatment and pick up the milk for the cafe. So Lola was one of those old wicker baskets, you know, one of the little old ladies used the wicker baskets on the trolley. Lola would wheel it out there at two o'clock in the morning and she'd be going down and, of course, then the rubbish truck would come down the road. She give him a little way, he'd stop and pull over and they live around back behind the building, and she'd blow him off there, and then she jump in the jump on, you know, a little trolley and wander off back down the road. And, uh, the rubbish man would just jump in his truck. [00:05:00] He had his fear. You'd only drive off. Lola was a character. I managed to see Lola in Auckland a few years ago, and she's still, um, working the streets up in road. And, um, I. I don't know how old would Lola be now to be easily, but I mean, she's she's worked that street so much. Um, she's got this fabulous pair of little heels with fabric on the on the shoes, but she's walked that street so much she's worn the heels down, and all the fabric on the on the hill is [00:05:30] rolling up the hill. The hill gets worn down more rolls up, rolls up further up the hill. Uh uh, up the hill. So Lola was one of the characters there. And, of course, um, we were just talking with Kayla and and Chanel, um, earlier on at the front, we talk talking about lorina, um, another one of the transgender who who was, uh, always a famous, um, in Carmen's cocky lounge. She had, um, very much like Angelica Houston, that black hair with the long black hair, you know, And, um, she had the most amazing [00:06:00] nose, and we always used to say, I'm sure they are. I was thinking, but we always used to think that we used to call a clutch, and it should give you an idea. They had designed the Mount Rupe ski slope of Lorena's nose like sweeping, but she was stunning. She was an absolutely amazing character, and she always had this thing about, you know, you know a girl and she'd flick her hair. And this long black, angelic, no hair would swing around and hit her in [00:06:30] the face on the other side. Um, and and she was well known for that very, very well known for that flick. And if you talk to anybody about Lorena and they'll always say to you, Lorena Oh, you girl. And remember that hair So look, she'd go away. She's now living over in Featherston, and I actually recently downloaded a photo of her, and she hasn't aged a bit. She absolutely still looks bloody fantastic. Um, we used to have some amazing types in Carmen. Um, she did look after us. Amazingly, Um, I never thought, you know, years and years later. I never honestly predicted [00:07:00] myself to be here talking about this today. Um, Carmen and her girls made us all very, very streetwise and with us being the young members of the gay community and we thought we were having a ball dressing a drag and having a great time. You know, um, Nicole Dell, the fabulous Nicole Deval is still in Auckland Herald And Nico now she's well into her seventies seventies, 76 Marie. Thank you, Nicole. And, uh, Nicole was a of course, moved to Auckland eventually. And, um, of [00:07:30] course was one of the headlining acts along with Georgina for the Fabulous Bloomers Review, which was performing at Alfie's nightclub in Auckland and of course. Then they would come down to Wellington to the down here and do shows. Well, at one part, there was a bunch of us young boys that were all doing the drain together, and we were living in, um, an apartment block down by the Basin Reserve. It's now called Zena Apartments, but in those days it used to be, um, the sea four flats, and we have a top level flat there, and we overlooked the Basin Reserve. So we got to watch all the cricket and the rugby and everything that was happening there for free. It was amazing when Nicole [00:08:00] came down, she was down here and she was working with for for quite some time down here. She said, Oh, girl, I need a place to stay and we're going on. We've got a spare room. So we put the up in the, um, in the single room, and I've got to say she's probably one of the few transgender girls that I know that I have every electrical appliance going in the house at once. She'd be sitting there. She'd have the ironing board going, the ironing iron plug done. She'd be ironing away doing something. She'd have heated rollers in her hair. She did have another heated rollers on her head, Piece [00:08:30] on a wing block going fag, hanging out the mouth, talking on the phone, ironing away, doing all this stuff. And, uh, every electrical appliance in the house was going. And then when she walked out, she was Jerry Hall's version of, um, uh, Jerry Hall. She was absolutely stunning. She had a regular client that she used to go out and have relationships with, and he was working with and, um, in payment every night, she'd come home and she'd have another ghetto blaster on her shoulder. Here, girls. Look, I've got another one tonight, you know, Block them [00:09:00] down there. We had we had Ghetto Blaster coming out of our ass. She was great. And we learned a lot from Mackay. I remember one particular night we'd all been sitting around and we all got pretty stoned, You know, Nicole said I'm going. I'm going to bed. I'm fucking knackered. She was in there. She just passed out of sleep, and we were all bloody kids, and we were having fun. And you know, that old thing about You know, if you put somebody's hand in the bowl of water, they're gonna piss the deer. We all stuck in there and the guy was out. Hang out. We got this pot of boiling not boiling, but more water. We stuck it under [00:09:30] her hand, and we're all sitting around there Googling, Googling, Googling, waiting for her to piss the dead, and all of a sudden she jump out of this. We all fucking fled out of the room. It was amazing. But these are some of the fun times we had with these with these girls, they were truly, truly amazing. And they they taught us how to be street wise. And if you did something wrong, you got the And if you got the slap, you know, you did something wrong and you learn from that slap. Um, they were amazing girls. Absolutely fantastic times. Um, there was Lorena. [00:10:00] There was Lola. Chanel was there in those days. We were all bloody doing the street. We were all trying to earn a bloody quid. It was an amazing time in our life. III I look back and I think, um what an uh, an amazing time. I had and I would never change for one minute any of my life. I. I have no regrets for where I've come from, what I've done or where I've ended up. Um and I and I think it's just through the tenacity of learning from these these girls, these amazing girls that made us streetwise. They gave us They put [00:10:30] us on the right path in in in our life, and I firmly believe that it hadn't been for Carmen and all of those girls. We probably as a gay community wouldn't be where we are today. And if you look back to the times when Carmen would walk down Wall Street and she had been fucking amazing knockers out there and the police couldn't do anything about it because legally she was still classed as a man. And it wasn't illegal for a man to walk down the street topless, so they couldn't do anything about it. And I think that's what made Carmen gave her the notoriety to who she was [00:11:00] and and gave her that path. People loved it because she didn't. She had the audacity to do it and know that she can get away with It was absolutely fantastic. Many years later. Of course, we did Carmen's, um, 70th birthday party. And I think I mentioned this at the opening of the, um, exhibition. And, uh, we didn't tell Carmen, but we we, um for her, it was her 70th birthday. But it was actually her 70th birthday and celebrity roast. And over the months of build up, we we'd managed to go through and get all these people from Nicole [00:11:30] came down from Auckland. A lot of the show girls came down from Auckland. Um, Natasha, that was Natasha. Natasha is another one. She she was this big Samoan drag queen. Absolutely amazing. She used to chase me around cars. Fuck you run in horror. Um, many years later, we became really, really good friends. She was absolutely amazing. It was sad that we'd been overseas. And we got back and, um, found out that had passed away. And it was just, um I'm so glad that [00:12:00] after all those times of she used to scare the shit out of me, um, that we actually got to go and spend some time with her. Um, Scott. And over in Auckland, we I think we run in Auckland at the, um Oh, I can't remember the name of the hotel, but it was the Golden Stiletto awards. Um, it was the, um, Sheridan Sheridan later, and Natasha is there. She says to us, um, girl, what are you doing? So we're gonna go out clubbing after the shit She come back to my place. She said, We'll go back there. She said, we smoke. She said you'll meet my husband. She said, we'll all go out. [00:12:30] So we jumped into this taxi. She got this taxi and she got an Asian taxi driver. This was at the she on the top of Kay Road there, you know, And she drove all the way to bloody grave to her place. And she says to the tax driver, Now you sit there and you don't go and you wait till I come out. Otherwise you don't get paid and we've taken us back into town. So we've been inside. She had this amazing husband. He was He was lying up in bed. She said, Oh, I just put me home. I'm gonna have a smoke. So we sat down and had a smoke with a boyfriend and he was hot. She had taste [00:13:00] that good. And, uh, we're sitting there and then she goes into a drawer and she started pulling out $100 notes. And she's going here, darling, $100 for you for drinks and $100 for you to go to Tasha. If we don't need your money, darling, we've got our own. She goes all right, then. Then she she puts all the money back in her pocket. We go back out. Of course. The Asian taxi driver is still sitting there. And so where we going? So we went to AAA Gay. A gay bar in Auckland. Um, the one that burned down, um, flesh. [00:13:30] Thank you. We went into flesh, and Natasha is a bit of a shark on the pool table. We didn't know this, but she says to darling, she said, I'll get the first round and she said, You go and set up the pool table. OK, so and I go and set up the pool table. Next minute. There's three waiters coming out with a tray with 12 bourbon and Cokes on each tray. I got the first round and you wouldn't take my money. So I got the drinks. She was fantastic. So it was really hard. Really, really hard for us when we found out Matt had died. Um, [00:14:00] an amazing An amazing, amazing transgender woman. Absolutely beautiful. There were many characters of those days that, um we're outstanding. And I as I said before, I firmly believe they they paved the way for us. Um, we've got Margie. I see Mars here. I'm sure we might have to drag you up again. You might be able to swing a few stories for us. Darling, we like that, um I. I think that's just as I was saying. The the amazing thing was doing [00:14:30] Carmen's, um, seventh birthday party and doing the celebrity roast. And we managed to track down Carmen quite often, but she never had the licence. So she quite often would get busted for selling illegal alcohol without a licence. And we actually managed to get the two cops that regularly busted her, um, at Carmen's Coffee lounge, and we brought them to Wellington. Um, we managed to get them to pay for their own air fares up and to pay for their own tickets to the function and it was them that presented her that fabulous [00:15:00] policeman's helmet, which is covered in pink feather. Bowers and, um, the gallery were very lucky to be able to get that from the museum. And, um, the feather bars had gone, But I see they actually managed to put the pink feathers back around it again. And I think that's how it should remain. And when he goes back to the museum, I think they should leave those pink ribbons on there, because that was the gift that she was given. And they need to look after that and keep them for prosperity. Um, of course, Many years later, Carmen moved on. She did the balcony, um, down in Victoria, where the National Library is, [00:15:30] uh, the one that's currently closed through with whatever. Um, Carmen started that there, Um, more girls again, the late, fabulous gypsy. And we used to go up to Carmen. She'd let us all in. She'd never judge us, and we'd sit. The other girls would entertain us of all their shows. And And you, of course, you get all the, um, the rugby yo that wanted to go out there and, you know, look at the fucking circus, you know, Let's go and see these trannies and all that gypsy. There's no one to argue with. And if you went up to the balcony, the stairs were like this. You walked [00:16:00] in up this massive line of stairs. And there these two rly yobo that were in the in the balcony one night, the cars cars there and they started heckling the girls gypsy just walked over. Excuse me, gentlemen. She grabbed them both by the scruff of the neck, one in each hand, dragged them to the top of the stairs and just went And all you could see was these two bodies rolling down the stairs. Nobody fucked the gypsy. Nobody fucked with Gypsy. She's absolutely fantastic. There are so many, many characters. Um, I probably will think [00:16:30] a little bit more of some of them later on, but right now I'm gonna hand you over to Georgino because she's got a few stories that she'd like to tell you. As a child, we haven't got enough time to go through all of them. So? So the common era really was from the late 19 fifties, um, through until the 19 eighties. Um when Carmen left New Zealand in about 81 to go and live in Australia [00:17:00] more permanently than here. So in the late 19 fifties, she was, I guess, an exotic dancer. And she was certainly one of the first transgenders who worked in a strip club. Uh, it was either the San Francisco or the crazy horse or something on K Road in Auckland. And the owner of the place was a guy called Wally Martin and Wally, um allowed, um, Carmen to perform on stage in those days. Carmen was really [00:17:30] stunning. Very, very slim. And she was an exotic dancer. Um, after she did her time, um, up on K Road there with Wally Martin in the clubs there she went to Australia and continued her her exotic dancing, um, and called herself Kiwi Carmen. Um, in those days, she would dance with snakes. This is what I mean by an exotic dancer and, um, and other sort of paraphernalia like that. [00:18:00] She, of course, had modelled her image her style of, um, the golden years of Hollywood, particularly the stars, uh, the the Marda, um, Carmen Marda and, um, and another fabulous female stars of the golden age of movies. And, um and so she fashioned herself to look a little bit outstanding as she got older and became a trademark. [00:18:30] Um, come and worked over in in Sydney and in Australia for quite a while, And, um, before she came back here to establish, um, what became, um, her well known businesses here in Wellington. Come, of course, from, um, originally and, uh, where she was born. She was very close to her mother and, um, and had a always up until she passed away very close to her car and being Maori. Of course, she [00:19:00] always had a connection to her, her Maori to and she carried that on even when she was living in Australia, more full time. A little kaha group, you know, got together, um, over there. And there's some fabulous photos of Carmen and full, um, traditional Maori regalia with only a touch that Carmen could add. That probably wasn't I like high hair and, um, and things that glitter. Um, Carmen's peak of fame really [00:19:30] grew during the sixties when she opened the coffee lounge down here in Wellington and things like that and really peaked. Oh, right from the late sixties through until the seventies. And and the eighties, Um, or the early eighties, at least. Anyhow, um, at the height of her fame, I guess in the mid to late sixties into the seventies, um, and she became famous because you've got to remember that we do not have the telecommunications [00:20:00] technology that we have today. Um, then, um, and she was a huge feature and probably helped to fund the truth newspaper for about 10 or 15 years, I guess. Um, and And that built up And, of course, uh, the, um semi regular arrests. That would happen. As as, uh uh, Amal had had said over, like, licence and stuff. But some of her more interesting cases that she was involved with was involved. Some of the [00:20:30] girls who worked at the balcony and, um and we had 10, God. Name just went out of my head. Um, anyhow, um, there was a beautiful, um uh, transgender woman. God, no, not, um um car winter. That's rough. Carol Winter and And those people at the balcony, um, all the queens were [00:21:00] stunning looking and, um, costumed beautifully and quite talented. It wasn't until somebody opened their mouth that people might have. And this was the art of drag in those days, um, it was that somebody could come in and see an artist on stage and not for a minute think that it wasn't anything other than a woman until, uh, in the old, um, drag artistry days, they would pull off the web at the end of doing something, and everyone would be shocked. And of course, nobody is quite that shocked [00:21:30] anymore about that. But I know that was the sort of gimmick, you know, that was the thing. So it was try to be uns spring, as we called ourselves in those days. And then afterwards it might be revealed, or or, uh realised that, um, all these are very special women. Um, you know, in those days, anyhow, with Carol de Winter and maybe one or two others, Carol had had a sex change, [00:22:00] but she got arrested, um, in the coffee lounge or wherever it was and had to end up going to court. And, of course, Carmen was, um, helping to support her. And I think had, um, retained, uh, a well known lawyer in Wellington in those days called Roy Stacey. And, um and Roy, um, defended this case in court. The issue that they had at the court, that is, was that legally, [00:22:30] Carroll was a man, but she'd had reassignment surgery, so she was a sex change. And I think that I can't remember or recall all the details of how the case went on, but it actually began the altering and changing of law of how to treat, um, a transgender person in front of the judge. I can remember when I got arrested myself for frequenting with Felonious in team as the and a, which I'm sure a few of us here might [00:23:00] have that charge against us. It doesn't exist. It doesn't because they didn't know how to treat male prostitutes, which is how we were under the law and so frequenting. It's just being around somewhere a lot. Um, but with Felonious intent, sort of meaning that we were out to sort of, you know, um, get some money. Yeah, yeah, to To to commit a crime and then deemed the rogue and a vagabond because we were [00:23:30] working off the street. And in those days, this Roe and Vagabond Law existed because I think from the Depression days or whatever. Um, you weren't allowed to have less than a a minimum amount of money on you. Uh, and if you didn't Well, you were, um, plucked and popped on the city mission for the night or whatever. Or in the cells? Probably more likely. But for charges that we got in those days, if we were unlucky enough to be caught, and quite often we were it became [00:24:00] regular. Um And so when we went to court, then that was the charge. And I can still recall fronting up to the district Court judge on the Monday morning after having spent Friday when I'd got plucked off the street in the cells, the male cells of what was in the wearing Taylor Street police station, um, down there and spent the whole weekend in there with the males are full of gang members and stuff. There was the sort of partitioned toilet in the corner of the goddamn cell. And I tell you, there was nothing more disgusting. And of course [00:24:30] we would be there full makeup and Friday nights going out here by Monday morning, fronting up to the judge. We look like shit. And, um, as you could imagine. And there was no no consideration given to us as trans people, um, you know, of of any kind of regard for us. We were scum, and we were the lowest of the low and that sort of sense, and that's how we were treated. Um, anyhow, most of us sort of thought, Oh, well, we got plucked out [00:25:00] of the many times you might have had clients and things. And the 50 buck fine that we got was sort of cheap tax, Really. And, uh, cheers. Thank you. Um, Carmen had the original coffee lounge, um, further down Vivian Street than where some of us might might remember it next to the Salvation Army citadel. It had a, um, very colourful and exotic, um, facade on the front of the building with minarets like [00:25:30] the Taj Mahal and stuff like that, Um, to give you a sort of sense that you were going be going into something quite special. Um, it was quite a small venue, really. In the scheme of things as we look at it today, Um, and the room was it was, um or the the the coffee bar was sort of decorated with paintings of Madam Carly and those old 19 sixties velvet paintings of women and things like that. Um, it had huge red lanterns, Chinese lanterns [00:26:00] that hung from the ceiling with big gold tassels on them. Uh, the walls were painted red. It was all sort of, you know, leaning towards that way. It was eclectic, and, um, and full of Carmen's exotica and up above the coffee lounge. Carmen had, um, her living quarters, and she had the rooms divided up into different themes. They were at the African Room and the Egyptian room, and famously, she had a coffin upstairs, which sort of became [00:26:30] legendary, you know, and that sort of thing. And as Mel mentioned when, uh, Carmen might have sort of a client for us after doing the tea cups thing, um, and all of that on the table, Carmen and come and sort of let you know that there was a person who was interested in you and the client would be, um, directed to go out of the coffee lounge and out onto the street in an alleyway ram between, um, uh, the coffee, the [00:27:00] coffee lounge venue. And what would now be the new Um, What's that one on street? Um, yeah. No, no, no. Um, anyhow, um, it doesn't matter. Um, really there. And, um and the client would go around to the outside door, entrance to the apartment, and then Carmen would have big tapestries on the wall inside, and she'd get the girl and she'd lift the tapestry. And there was an internal door, uh, to the apartment. [00:27:30] And so if you went through that door, the client would be knocking on the outside door. You'd open it. Hello? And here we are. And upstairs would go and do the business. It wasn't unknown for Carmen to be, um, Hawking. I suppose you'd call it from her upstairs bedroom window. Um, tips out on the street fully beautiful and wonderful. While she's taking care of business behind her. And, um, which was in some time Miles mentioned [00:28:00] Lola. There was Gypsy. There was Dion. There was Chrissy. There was a whole We call them the Big and, um, Geraldine and shell. And a whole lot of Phyllis Monroe Cardigan Bay. Um, you know who would who would be our elders? I guess for those of us who are young and new to the scene now was right. We met in about 1975 76 when I had not [00:28:30] long moved to Wellington and as a night porter for a short time at the Royal Oak. And there, of course, we were introduced to the Bistro bar and the tavern bar, which were infamous in those days. The bistro would be full of, uh, Trans, um, and sailors and prostitutes. The tavern bar was basically was essentially meant to be a gay man's bar. It wasn't advertised as such. It just became that or whatever. And me, me and Leon worked upstairs [00:29:00] in the hotel and is quite rightly, he he did, um, do the, uh, just the the the music at the club exotic for the shows, Um, that we were in stripping and up there. But he also moonlighted while he was working as a, um or bar manager upstairs, um, of the restaurant, wasn't it? And, um, and he would moonlight being the sweet transvestite act at Carmen's balcony. This was in the dying days of Carmen's [00:29:30] balcony. Um, and, uh, which was a fabulous um, you know, drag show that we had down here, Um, you know, at that time and took me one night to see the show there, And I had never really encountered, um, trans like that before. I really didn't even know about Carmen. But through my association with Mel and Leon, you know, at that time, I soon learned pretty quick. And that was the first time when I went to the balcony that I saw, um, a cast of transgender [00:30:00] women performing, and I never looked back from them myself. It was It was the It was the affirmation I needed that answered my own internal struggle with who and what I am et cetera Like that. And that confirmed I never looked back from that time onwards. And, um, the balcony, uh, closed, I think, in the closing year or 12 months or so of it. A, um, well known New Zealand um, entertainment [00:30:30] group called Red Mole. Um uh, Arthur based and various other people like that who are in the show. But they went off overseas and did very well for themselves. And they were quite well known here as a sort of, um, travelling troupe of performers. Uh, they weren't trains or anything like that, but they used that venue, Um, which Carlin happily gave them to and just remarking on, Yes, Gypsy would be on the door at the balcony. But also there would be Jeannette Jeannette McLaughlin, who, um, [00:31:00] and Maureen, you know, would be out there except Jeanette would get a little unscrupulous sometimes and sort of go. Oh, that's a dollar for Carmen. A dollar for me. A dollar for Carmen. A dollar for me. You know, naughty things will go on like that sometimes. Um, Carmen had various businesses she's often talked about as as being entrepreneurial. And she was for, um, a person of her sort in those days. And as far as Carmen was concerned, as publicity grew for her, and she became quite a famous [00:31:30] figure in New Zealand at that time, but with a salacious bent to it, any publicity was good publicity. As far as she was concerned, it helped business all the time. And the kinds of businesses that Carmen ran were her coffee lounge. Uh, the balcony, um, she had a curio shop for a while up in Plymouth steps. She had the Egyptian tea rooms in Upper Cuba street. Uh um, for a while, just to name a few of her, um, sort of, uh, businesses that she [00:32:00] had going. And then, of course, she had her famous boarding house in Moxam Avenue. Hm? Boarding house. Hm. And, um, more like bro boarding brothel house. But But, you know, this was business, and it was a boarding house. And those and those sorts, um, sorts of things. Carmen's venues offered a safe haven. I think Chanel has mentioned this before, and [00:32:30] many of us have for those of us who are new and green and coming into the scene. And yet it was rough justice. Sometimes for us to learn how to fit in number one rule. You never punched any other girl's client by god, if you did, you were soon slapped down very quickly. Uh, by that and, uh, some, you know, when we're young and we're beautiful and that some of the slightly older ones that have had one too many, um whatever shall comes to mind for out of the out of the blue just slack [00:33:00] you across the face. You are too fucking good looking Whack. 00, so sorry about that. Trying to make it, um, like that. And I don't know if any of you have seen or heard of the, um, series called Coming Out of America and they talk about the, um, homes and the houses and the mothers and things like that. Well, some of these older queens were just like that, and they were homes. I guess you could call them around. Welling wellington. At [00:33:30] the time she had up in street, she had a house there which would be full of the and lots of queens who went and lived there for a wee while. And they soon left as soon as they could. Uh, Monroe used to have a house up in Home Street. Um, Carroll had a place up in the street up there in, and they were very Duncan Terrace was another place that had them. And, um, when the lease ran out for Carmen's coffee lounge, [00:34:00] the original site and everything like that, Carmen moved temporary very temporarily for a short time and had a coffee lounge, um, upstairs, in a building on Lower Cuba Street and next door up there were the, um was the Greek gambling club where the Greeks gambled up there. She was there only very temporarily. And then the ever, um, or what became the evergreen came up and she moved in there. Um, but then in the early eighties, when car and left New Zealand for tax purposes and, um, [00:34:30] and everything she, um Chrissy we took, uh, took over the lease on on the, um evergreen and that became famous and synonymous with Chrissy even till now. Uh, but the legacy that Carmen had left as far as having some safe havens of entertainment and stuff was was carried on by Chrissy. Now Chrissy was around, certainly during Carmen's heyday. So was Jackie Grant. Jackie was another, um, Trans [00:35:00] woman who had the businesses and things like that. Um, at the time, Carmen seemed to be the one that grabbed the headlines. Um, she had a an amazingly warm personality. A great sense of a, um, a customer to any of her, um, establishments was warmly welcomed. No sense of threat or whatever like that, um, which was sort of wonderful. So generally, members of the public, um, found it, um, quite comfortable. [00:35:30] And E collective to go and and sort of naughty to go to somewhere like Carmen. The whole Vivian Street scene in those days had colour. It had life. It was vibrant. Yeah, it was a little bit, Sort of, you know, um, salacious, I suppose. In lots of ways, Uh, but I think the clear that used to come through, um and I don't mean, you know, for sex or anything like that. But those would want to come and have a sort of wild night out. After the pubs shut at 10, there was very little left a few nightclubs around town. [00:36:00] But the last place that you might be able to get some booze would be at the coffee lounge or at the evergreen or whatever before the old coffee lounge closed. Nicole Deval took over the lease for a year, the last year of it. And at that time, Nicole was living out in, um, Island Bay, I think with uh, Diana Adams and Vicky Crystal, and, um, and a few others like that. And, um and that's where she was during that period of time when Nicole had been here. I think when mel [00:36:30] was talking about it before, um, she did spend some time living at what was the old Egyptian Embassy? An oriental terrace around an Oriental bay, which is very flash place, you know, a bunch of queens and gypsy and Helena and their lived in one of those beautiful San Francisco turn of the last century houses on Oriental Bay. Um, those ones there, um, they were sort of, uh uh, you know, dingy in those days. Those houses who would have thought [00:37:00] Now, that'd be gazillion dollar properties, Um, and all of that. But, you know, that's where where, Uh, some of us, uh, lived. So the little touches of law and things because of arrests and court cases that came up caused a conundrum for the legal fraternity and for Parliament. I guess at the end of the day of how to address this emerging and growing population of trans people, particularly as far as gay Night life was concerned at the time, it was very confined. [00:37:30] The lesbians would have had a club of their own, and the gay men had a club of their own. The Dorian Society, originally down Lambton Quay and then it moved up to Willow Street, um, behind at the Willow Street village there. Um uh, for some time and trans weren't often allowed to go, and some of us were. The favourite ones were allowed to go because that was the exclusive only. But when homosexual law reform and things like that came along, the barriers between the Trans the [00:38:00] gay men, the gay women began to melt. Uh, because we all needed to work together going for the same cause. So our mobilisation and, of course, transgender people were the most obvious of gay people. I mean, you can't deny with Carmen sailing like a gallon down Cuba mall and her via Lucas beautiful gowns and her hair forever and her botanical garden in the hair And, um, and all of that and those lips and her cavernous Grand [00:38:30] Canyon of the chest and which would be out there. And she became notable because of her lovely sense of humour, her cheekiness, the art of the double on to, uh, which she could do very well in public and private situations. And, um, one famous photo should be in the archives of the truth newspaper one year. I think Sir Arthur was our governor general and she had come and had reason to be out at the races of re one year and managed to be in [00:39:00] the general vicinity of the governor General, um, at the time. And, uh, she, uh, a photo was teed up and car and went to sort of stand near the Governor General like that again with a cavernous cleavage and all of that sort of stuff. And just as the photo is about to be taken, she popped her tits out. And, of course, that would have made the front page of the newspaper, or at least page three and, you know, and it was funny little gimmicks like that the car would do from time to time. Um, I should stop talking [00:39:30] with these other two girls. Um, have a Have a say. Um, Carmen knew every business owner down Cuba street. Um, it would be her routine to go for a walk down Cuba Street and Cuba more and everything like that. And she would be saying hello to all of us. Even at me. Hardware, the English and foreign food company that was up there and all of those sort of shops in those days when she was just going out to do her shopping. So she became [00:40:00] a beloved local character, and Wellington came to embrace her. There was something sort of and she became famous. And why that is important for us as a transgender community is that our visibility was being lifted by Certainly this one person as far as the national scene was concerned. And that helped to desensitise, uh, hatred, frankly, and fear of people like us in those days, but because she seemed to be warm, the heart [00:40:30] of many in the country. I mean, but I, I have people coming up to me as Oh, yes, we went to Carmen's Coffee lounge, and all those years ago, they actually quite like telling these naughty stories, Um, you know, Oh, when they went there, A few famous people, of course. David Long. He famously, um, frequented the, um, coffee lounge. Nothing for more than coffee, I suppose. Lou Reed and his then transgender girlfriend, um, went to the coffee lounge. Um, when he was here on on [00:41:00] one of the concerts, she had the great and the good pass through there. And she knew all of the, um movers and shakers in Wellington at the time. Um uh, Bob Jones, of course. Famously, of course. He he backed her, um, for the Wellington May And I have to say, one of my uncles, Trevor was in in amongst all of that as well. I have my, um I have a view of why Bob was happy to do that. I think he wanted to upset local government at the [00:41:30] time and just sort of thought he'd put someone like, you know, back someone like Carmen because that would just be absolutely sensational. And it was. And Carmen loved it. And she would get a little coterie of girls to travel around with her to her campaign, meeting things and things like that. Sometimes she'd pull up in a nice black limousine and all of that wearing hats and everything and and the two or three girls would have to pop out and play lady and waiting with her and all of that, you know, to help support her into things like that. Big billboards everywhere and some of the things we see [00:42:00] in the exhibition there about her. And of course, she, um, went on a on a platform that was about liberalising things such as our liquor laws at the time, such as prostitution reform such as homosexual, um, homosexuality and and reform, You know of all of that. And she was talking about on a very public platform, those kinds of things back in those days, probably with the hand of Bob Jones and his little bunch of cronies who are helping to write her press statements. [00:42:30] Because Carmen was dyslexic. Um, she couldn't read. Um very well, um, and that kind of thing, and she sure couldn't write. I mean, have you received cards from Carmen and stuff like that? And you see a little scrawl at the bottom of a photo, a new photo she might send to you or whatever like that you could tell that she wasn't, you know, into doing that. And, um, but she would have firmly believed in those things and still did that in her lifetime. She would have seen all of that come to pass as [00:43:00] a wonderful testament to somebody stepping forward and, you know, and making those pleas, I guess for us to look at those, um, some of those laws and of course, helped to, you know, open the world, Uh, for us, in many ways, um, everything we've got today. Well, it is, Yes. And, um, and those of us who have come after have built on top of that legacy, of course. And as far as her running for the mayor, she's got fourth in the Wellington mayoral. [00:43:30] Um, she missed out to Sir Michael Fowler, who became the mayor then. And, um, at that time, and really, she had a pretty damn good run. Um, in that campaign to be at least fourth in that election. That was amazing, because it was just that a person, a drag queen or whatever would run for those things. So when it came to my time many years later, um, to stand in local government, uh, I wasn't a precedent. [00:44:00] Not in that sense. Carmen had run beforehand and had laid a certain amount of sort of 00, yeah. There wasn't that much shock horror in Iran except the shock. Horror was in part, Really. And, um, and, um and of course, you know, the rest is history. Um, as far as I'm concerned. But if it hadn't been for people, um, like, car like Nicole, like all of that generation. Really, That helped to uplift the next ones. Those of us you know [00:44:30] who who came along later, Um, when she had her 70th birthday. And there's a photo of out in this exhibition of me and Carmen, uh, standing at the front door of parliament. So after we had the birthday down at the boat shed on the waterfront here, um, a day or two later, um, Tim Barnett And I said, Well, we've got to have come to Parliament for dinner, and, [00:45:00] um And so we organised that, and the photo of Carmen and me there is on that occasion, and we weren't going to take it through the beehive entrance of, um I said, no girlfriend. You're gonna walk up the front steps of this goddamn parliament because it was the first time that Carmen had been back to Parliament since she had been hauled in to front the Privileges Committee in 1975. She had done an interview on television because she was about to write a book, [00:45:30] and I can't remember the name of the reporter, but he was well known and well, well regarded at the time and during the course of that interview, she mentioned that she knew of at least one homosexual who was in Parliament and knew more. And on the strength of that, Muldoon, who I think was a member of the opposition or leader of the opposition or something at the time had her hauled in front of the Privileges Committee of the Parliament. Um, and she was censored. Now, to many people think Oh, yes. So what? You were censored. But [00:46:00] in the parliamentary term, that's quite a thing to be censored. You cannot leave there and ever talk about, um, any suggestion and all she did was make a sort of an innuendo that she knew of at least one and that there might be others in there. And she was hauled in front of Parliament terrifying experience, I could imagine for her famous photo of Carmen standing with her fox and and, um, on the steps of Parliament when she went to go and, uh, front, all of that, [00:46:30] and went in there and front of that committee and came out having been CD and she couldn't reveal anything more. She knew about around about that same time. Um uh and this is will give you an idea of how low life we as a gay community were in those days. Muldoon suggested that an MP called Colin Moyle might be gay, and it destroyed that man's life and career in Parliament. Um, you [00:47:00] know, at that time, So, um, Carmen fronting up to parliament, and now we move on some years, and she's there, coming for dinner. Um, and I had stupidly said to her because she sort of said, Oh, can I bring you know, one or two with me? 30 turned up, She came with her entourage and we had dinner in the and the in there and every member of Parliament who came and had dinner in there that night, Um, all came and [00:47:30] paid their respects to come and come and directly and personally, including Helen Clark. And, um, I can remember a former national MP called Wayne MAPP, um, who was one of the first in the room after we'd all been seated in the restaurant. And, um, and he walked in and was just taken aback at this array of trains that were sitting in in parliament with Carmen at the head of the table and everything like that. And he [00:48:00] said to me later, he said, You know what? The first thing was that that struck me as soon as I walked in there. He said there was this weird concoction of perfume at him because everyone had wore their, you know, best Charlie perfume, um, or white diamond. Um, whatever it might have been of the day and all of that. So it was lovely to have her back there. And I am so pleased that she was treated with the respect and everything from members of Parliament, Um, in their, uh, that night when I became [00:48:30] elected, not just as mayor, but when I went to parliament to Carmen was very pleased about that. And she was so proud, You know, that one of her girls or or you know, from that time wasn't quite a pro, but, um, but, you know, um, she sort of felt that that was good to see that, uh, came And how funny. Now we have about 16 out gay members in our parliament. Don't tell the rest of the world because some might think that now the gay community is disproportionately [00:49:00] represented in our parliament for the size of our population across the board. But sadly, I am still the first and only transgender woman, Um, who has been elected to Parliament and to And I'm hoping, uh, although, uh, in the 2014 election and that he called Kelly Ellis from in, um, north, You know, up in Northland there, uh, she ran for the Labour Party in the 2014 election for the seat. Unfortunately, [00:49:30] she was not successful. Um, I'm hoping, and I am sure there will be other trans people, um, who will have a go at politics in some respect. And, um, and be the second? You know, I suppose. But I guess just to wind up my little bit for now, um, all of that that went before, built up towards people like myself, uh, a whole range [00:50:00] of well known rainbow people now who have excelled in the area of Endeavour. Um, and it also we have to acknowledge the maturing attitude of the New Zealand citizen over those years. Yes, Difficult. In the sixties seventies and somewhat into the eighties until homosexual law reform came along in 93 we had our human rights amendments. Um included into it. Um, 2003 [00:50:30] 4, we do the civil union act. Um, the statutory references amendment bill, which was actually the more important bill to pass. Um, along with civil union, because that's a statutory references amendment bill amended over 100 other acts of parliament, um, to take into consideration. Um, uh, you know, all the other law that it would be consequential to and things like that. We then moved forward to, of course, Louisa [00:51:00] Wall bringing us marriage equality. And in that short period between 2004 and about 2009 10, or whenever it was we did, um um, uh, marriage, equality, that it was a nation by majority who were telling us the country Oh, for God's sake, marriage, equality. Give it to them by majority. Now, that's a huge attitudinal change that had happened even from civil unions. Those of you who may recall civil union was a venal, nasty, [00:51:30] horrible debate for our community to have to go through. And, of course, I famously had my battles with Destiny Church and Brian Tamaki and all of those sorts of, uh, naysayers to us and, um, and you know, and And we got through that just, um, to get civil unions through. And then not less than 10 years later, we have marriage equality in the nation, saying, Come on, come on, just let them have it. And I think that is a great [00:52:00] thing to have happened, because now you know, they are with us, not against us. The nation I'm in, you know, uh, by majority. We still have our enemies, of course. And, uh, but and they will always be present and the naysayers to us. But, uh, we have shown that we could stand up against them, and it hadn't been for pioneers like Carmen, like Gypsy like Chrissy um, you know, all of them before us and Nicole and all the Auckland Queens and and things like that, we might not be quite the community we are today [00:52:30] or things mightn't have happened as quickly as is there is one more important piece of, uh, legislation to mention that passed. Uh um, So we've got five pieces of rainbow related legislation starting off from homosexual law reform, the human rights amendments, the civil unions, the marriage equality and the latest, and perhaps In some ways, the most important was that all gay men who were convicted of homosexuality back in that day have had their crimes [00:53:00] wiped entirely. And that's great for those who have survived. Um, having been arrested in those times and suffered the ignominy of all of that. But for many, it destroyed their lives and their careers irreparably. Um, because of those anti homosexual, uh, laws that were then So, um, in a relatively short time period, 30 40 years, um, we have come quite a long way, and I know there's a lot more work [00:53:30] to do. And now transgender issues are are floating to the top very much so, uh, the, um, conference seminar that's just been cancelled at Massey University. Um, for these feminists who have a huge issue with transgender and, uh, wish to keep us in a box, um, and I will be helping to fight against that. I think when it, um when it comes to the fore, because we do have a piece of legislation before Parliament now delayed at a second reason. Um, [00:54:00] but that's that I winded up common fabulous person. She is, as has become as much a Kiwi icon as a Tim Shad as a Sam Hunt as a Barry Crump. She's part of our country's folklore. She's regarded affectionately by everyone. She has things that lights to. We get a statue sometime or whatever like that in in [00:54:30] an appropriate place. She was an important piece of New Zealand's social development and the liberation, Um, and part of the liberation of the rainbow community in New Zealand. I'll leave it at that now and pass over to, uh, Chanel, who will have some other things to add. I hope. Chanel, by the way, for those of you who are underwear. She co curated this exhibition, and, um, and I've said it before, but I'll say it again. Congratulations. It's a fantastic [00:55:00] honour for for Carmen and for those of us that are in those little bits of photos framed up out there. I was shocked to see some of me, Um, but everybody. So I'm going to talk about, um, the eighties. So we came in on the wave of the eighties, and the 19 eighties was a time was was a time for was it was a period of change, and I think part of that change, Um, [00:55:30] For the community, for for for for the New Zealand public and for the world Green came in on, um, like when you in in in in that time all the singers who were known then as gender bender like boy George and the high shoulders padded jacket, the makeup and all that kind of, um all all all that kind of stuff It it kind of it kind of mellowed out people's ideas [00:56:00] that about about our community that that that they didn't have in the seventies because in the, um, Tina was talking about, uh, Carmen and how she was in front of, um, that privileges that privileges Committee because you in in those days you just didn't do that because being gay could cost you your job. And when she was talking about how, How, how [00:56:30] How, um, a lot of that kind of stuff has been good for somebody has wrecked other lives and, you know, coming out you you could be fired. So it was better to stay, stay safe and come under the what she was doing. She was just rekindling those issues that people never talked about because in those days you're gay and that's all you're ever gonna be. You're never gonna be anything else than gay and Trans and that's where you belong. And she [00:57:00] she she she rekindled that that that that that that talk about about that kind of thing. And, um, she did it with a lot of style and she with a smile. And, um, she was very, um, uh, she she was engaging and she was somebody that, like there are some people in this world that they don't really need any words, the presence in themselves. And she was one of those people. You could just see her and go, Oh, my gosh, it's calm. [00:57:30] It's calm. And and I remember, um, the 70th birthday at the boat, Those two police officers and I and and And I know them through my work who they were, that was, and and they were really high profile. And they did arrest her back in the day. It strange that when the Prostitution Law Reform Act passed, they created this committee so [00:58:00] the committee would monitor it. Five years down the line, they come back and review it. And Paul Harris was the chair of that committee. So that's really funny how things have come around and, um, talking about the changes. I mean, when we came, we were like, the new We were, like, the new girls on the block, and we've never seen other transistors so big. They were huge. And, you know, we we were We were [00:58:30] just amazed, um, and it kind of intimidated because they were a little bit, They were bigger, and we were skinnier. And yeah, we were young and they were big. Your voice is like in those days, a roller. A roller was a was a, um, somebody who stole somebody else's money. So we had no idea what a roller was. So every time they said it to us, we're like, what? And then we'd go up the stairs and there'd be another trans guy even [00:59:00] bigger. One saying I've never seen you before. I Oh, no, no. We we we knew We're from Auckland. You don't grow up. Do you think that word again? What the hell is that? What is that word? And after a while we really realised what it was and they never You never introduced yourselves to them. They came to you. That's the That was the rule. Never go up to a older girl with you. They'd come to you in their own time. And, um, eventually [00:59:30] we're talking about We were talking about houses, houses. Um, well, we had a house because we were the new ones. So we had 40 Colombo street and that was our house. And the reason why we had, um, houses in those days is because of discrimination and stigma. A lot of girls were out there because it was so hard to find a job and they were discriminated against even when it came to housing. It's like, Oh, no, you're not. I'm [01:00:00] not giving my I'm not renting my place to you. You're a six week. Even if you weren't so that's the reason that everybody had households. So if one got a house, seven would move in. Then it was like, Yeah, I know I lived in a house like that, but it was good because it taught you to how to how to engage with other people, how to how to when you go out by yourself. How how how you you'll know how to look after yourself. Learn how to pay your [01:00:30] rent and and and all that kind of stuff. So it was a learning experience for all of us in that time. In that time, we saw a lot of changes uncommon pave the way for people to enter into political spaces. Um, I went to the to the conference, and this is where people from all over the world came. And somebody said to me, I flew into your country. They said the [01:01:00] first thing I saw was a rainbow in the airport. They said I came into the city. You've got a train ski on the traffic lights and you've got this rainbow crossing. She goes. I hope you realise how how lucky you are in your country, she said, Because we, we we we we're a million years away from that and in our country, she said, we walked up the street, nobody even looked at us. You know, she goes, we felt so comfortable. She goes, [01:01:30] You hosted us so well because, uh, New Zealand had done the bit for for the and Thailand. And, um, that's how we won the bid for it. And they were just blown away by by by by New Zealand. It's not not just the beauty of our our of the people, the inclusiveness. And they said, I mean, look, you've got a bisexual, you've got a rainbow. You've got a trans flag [01:02:00] outside your parliament. They go, this is Oh, it's got the rainbow room in parliament. This is this is amazing. And you have rainbow people in your parliament. They go, you you are so far ahead of the world. And they said, and we're so privileged to to to To to come here and and, um you know, that makes me proud because, um, we've broken a lot of barriers like we do in New Zealand. I mean, Georgina, that's that. That was huge. And, [01:02:30] um, you know, you need somebody to to to like that torch, so you know, you can carry it. Someone else can carry it down, uh, in in the future. And I think that, um, as Trans people we do have, we do. Luckily in New Zealand for trans girls, we do have some really good things. We can have an F on the passport and we can have an F on our driver's licence, and you can go and have an [01:03:00] F put on your birth certificate if you want to. But that's brought trans girls into conflict with a lot of, um, um, feminist groups, because they believe that, um, trans women are stealing their space, and I think that's really, really sad. And it's even in our own community, you know? And we we are the probably the most, you know, marginalised ones out of all out. Really. And I think that's really sad. And but it's the way that that that that that the world [01:03:30] is today and, you know, hopefully something can be done in the future. And yeah, um, so yeah, to this whole exhibition about Carmen. I was asked to do it, and I really wasn't sure because, um, I'm an era after, but I know all these girls. I did a show with Georgina. We did play girls back in 1981. We were back in 1981. We did a show called Fake Girls and we performed [01:04:00] for Alvi Martin for the young ones. There was Harvey Norman's Martin and he came right. We put it right, and she she was stunning. She did. She did. That's right. No lines just off the cuff. She was amazing. She was stunning. And I was really honoured to to to to do a show. Um um with Georgina and, um and and how much you've done [01:04:30] you You You've done, um, in terms of, um, being a being an icon for 1978. Well, into you were in 1978. Were you in that line? I'm not that house. Yeah, the eighties. That's that's Queen of Queen. Oh, OK. Yes. Right. [01:05:00] Anyway, so So So we have come a really long way in terms of our our community and and and all our young people in our community have can. And and and And I'm glad that some of you are here because you can listen to these stories and know that that, you know, there's this beautiful quote that she stopped that she had, and it goes something like, I stand on the shoulders of those that went before me, [01:05:30] and now people stand on the shoulders of people like me. And, um, when we think about it, it's those those who went before you that made their plan. So you don't have to, um you don't have to have it so hard. We do still have issues today. Maybe that we need to to fix up. But they're not as bad as they used to be. Back in the very conservative days when it was even illegal for you to put a dress on. And it was illegal for you to [01:06:00] wear women's underwear. Yeah, and it was illegal for you to be gay. I remember with the boys in the high street in Auckland, and, um, they were always getting back in the early eighties, and they were always getting busted by the police going in under cover. And on top of them, they had the police on the street, you know, doing undercover things and busting busting, um, the girls on the street so you know, things that you know. But with all these new changes the homosexual law, reform, prostitution, law reform act, you know all these [01:06:30] things, all all these changes have come around, and they've been, and they've been positive because you don't have to go through all that that stuff again. We we we have our rights. And, you know, we just, um, think about all those other countries that don't have it. And, you know, hopefully one day they will. So, anyway, um, that was nice to talk to you. And it's, um that's me. [01:07:00] Thank you. So I just before I indicate I just that 1978 drag contest was a Miss Wellington drag contest. And, um, there's a a well known, uh, woman, um editor, journalist for the listener, Helen Pak was her name decided to do a feature story on that particular event in 1978 Miss Wellington drag contest. And there's just a wonderful lineup of of we're all standing, you know, [01:07:30] there it's a great, um, shot of all of us. Then, um a, uh a friend of all of ours called Kennedy won the Miss Wellington drag contest and I won miss personality. And, um, our prizes were to go to Auckland for their, um uh for their drag contest, which was done under the theme of the Debutant Ball. And since he be had won, um, the contest in Wellington. She was allowed to go up and be a judge and certainly [01:08:00] a VIP special guest. But I just my prize for winning this personality was to go to the Auckland thing. So I went up there, too, and then I cheekily entered it and won. And so we brought it back to Wellington. You know, um, in that sense, Um, yeah. And then a little while later, we did that, um, play girl show with a flatmate of mine at the time. Um, and it had, um Renee. Renee, Paul was in it. Chanel was in it. Sarah, [01:08:30] she was in it. I was in it. And Donna de Paul, uh, was in it, and I only got I mean, really a Maori doing May west. Um, but we had a wonderful woman called Tina Harris that made our our set of costumes. Um, uh, for that particular show. And they were like, she was the television New Zealand wardrobe mistress, um, at that time out at a and she made a beautiful set of four cost for the ascot out of my fair lady. And they were made to [01:09:00] absolutely, as you would see it as though, um, Beaton, who designed the costumes, um, for the ascot in the movie. Um, fabulous. And she made the May outfit, which I managed to fit into, which was red and black. And I had to wear this blonde wig and you come up and see me some time. You know, I Yeah, I made it up anyhow. Fabulous years, lots of entertainment and lots of fun. But Kayla can add to [01:09:30] all of this. So, um yeah, I'm about the youngest. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Right. But I know how I remember that many years ago, when I was about 16 17, I had left school and got a job [01:10:00] in a place called Town House on Oriental Bay. And, like we had, like, Charlie and various guests, American artists turn. So I was privileged to take a tray of food to the room. It was cool. It was, like, part of my life then and I thought, That's it. Um, but, see, I had to walk from Orange Bay all the way through Courtney Place down street to the station, [01:10:30] and after that for a while, and then one night I was coming home very young, and this big person come out the door, he goes, how are you? And I sort of like, see all these, um, tits. And I heard a lot of music and I could remember the big bust and the big here. And would you like to come in? Oh, no. I've got to go home. And like, I just recently got [01:11:00] out of school. And it turns out this person was Cal and this is the club that she had. If I had known that I was gone, I had to lay the train home and I would have gone in, you know, because it was really, really, really good atmosphere in there. And, um, I kept doing that for a while, and I moved town. But when I come back to Wellington, I met up with my friend Chanel. Now, me and Chanel have actually been friends for, like 40 [01:11:30] years now, So, um, but you're not that young, about 20 years younger than you. But, um, what I mean by that is that with us and the closeness of the girls in that that that we had our houses, Yes, we had our communities and we had, like, our families because some of us, as you [01:12:00] might know now, these days, the young ones get kicked out of home. They they get, uh, disowned and stuff like that. But When you come into your own little community and you get to of friends, your friends will be there to pick you up, help you off the ground and you fall over. If you're sad, depressed, what have you help you through? Things we built up our own network, our own little families. Hence our own houses. And there's usually the one person who is at the main, you know, the mother [01:12:30] of the house type thing that you looked up to got to buy. We can come. Oh, you do this, Do that. Do that. You want a house, do this, do that and that, and you go out. And it was an entire community now working on Marion Street. Yeah. Um um Well, unfortunately, because I'm 6 ft three, you add five inch heels to there. That's 68. [01:13:00] And if you if you recall the sign post they have on the corner street with the stop sign, I can go out there and the sign will be right there. Yeah, so and I Yeah, I sort of have this, um, moral walk when I walked in, You know where I tried to be, as as they could but yeah, I mean, hello, 6 ft eight and stood out like this sort of stuff. But to me, working on the street [01:13:30] area was actually fun, because when most people get up in the morning and they get ready and they have breakfast and go out to work and they were all bloody week or 11 day for to get paid sort of thing, you know? And they come home at night and do usual stuff, have dinner, relax and go to bed. Well, when they come home, we would sort of like to get ready on. You're in your bedroom and you go like this and [01:14:00] piss off, you know, and you just get yourself. Then you go out and you'll be in a good mood. We didn't have to worry really about getting into any nightclubs because they were predominantly straight. At that time, we had a nightclub which used to be run by the girls in Cuba. Street called Something now or Or was. Then there was a big car park. Then there was the region where we worked in the street. So we [01:14:30] had our own nightclub, you know, listening and would have a good time. We we all all be happy. Stop and talk to the next person. How you go? Oh, yeah. I'll get back to you soon. I just got a It was like that night, but it was like waking up going to the shop sort of thing. Um, it went really smoothly. And it was actually really enjoyable lifestyle. Well, for me myself, um, over the years, that sort of declined because we had the, um [01:15:00] uh, prostitution law reform Bill pass, which made it a lot better for all six workers. So but, um, six workers have gone still more indoors from the street area, but they're still working. I mean, yeah, I'm still working. Yeah. Sorry. Um, but anyway, getting back to the point with me, I am the chef and caterer. So when I was young, first time I really met Georgie. I was working [01:15:30] in a club called, uh a in Auckland with my boyfriend, and they were doing, um, and down the road with, like, um, another club, not staircase. And some of you may know, um, and the old crowd they were like, Yeah, those two. And it's like staircase actually went up about 30 0 fr [01:16:00] stairs to go to the club. They had the piano bar and everything. That was cool. You get back on the street, and then you get run into all these. Oh, you were one of those to me. It was sorry. Oh, you were one of those. Really? Yeah. Um, I was raised in a large family. I've got, like, six brothers, so I thought I was taught you back down. And that was taught to me by my mother. Funny, of course. But [01:16:30] after that, I sort of hung around that scene, the nightclub scene. And when I moved to Wellington, I started working in various, um, cafes, and I met way back this one. I met me in a place called the Society many, many years ago, and there were three of the people there, and they actually did drag shows. And then I was asked to do one. [01:17:00] Hence began my performance, um, era sort of thing. We flown on through that, and we still remain friends to stay. I went from there and then, um, I was given a job job opportunity. I was one of the first trans bouncers in the club down in Edward Straight off. Yeah. And then, um, after that, it was just like I went. And, um, remember, [01:17:30] they open up another out in Wellington. So I went there to work as a cleaner. Next minute I'm hosting Thursday drag show. And next minute, Miss Hot Legs by jingles. And then Miss hostess. And I was, like, to me, that was just helping my community. Nothing was expected. It's just Yeah, it just happened. Things happen. And it turned out to be excellent, like, [01:18:00] um, comparison to say straight people mundane life. Do this, Do that. But every single time when you go out, like at in our night life, there was something different. Um, something more exciting about it. I don't know. Like, you see, one of the girls come out and next minute. Oh, you look really good. How did you get like that? And, you know, just, uh the enthusiasm of some of the girls [01:18:30] was just over the top. We had When I was working on the street, we had a girl. I forgot her name. Now she's passed on, and she had an amazing voice. Sounded very much like Anita Baker. If you know who that was? And she used to stand on the corner of the street and sing a cappella and nowhere to live life. People used to throw money at her. And then we had another girl called Joe Chanel. Um, now [01:19:00] she was a very good singer as well. It's like that the girls had different talents. But see through all of that these days, that's what we did back then. Used to what you do in your youth. But when you get older, you want to go and do this. Be a newspaper report or what have you? But see the girls. We're not totally useless. We're productive. We went on. Some of us become politicians, [01:19:30] business owners, um, medical professionals and things like that. We contribute to the community more than people actually realise. Like I mean, I've been doing, um, an outreach programme for about 30 years. Um, I help. It's helping the community in regards to Carmen. It was years later, and my friend Jackie Grant approached me and she [01:20:00] says, Oh, I need a chef and I What for? Oh, she goes, Oh, so yeah, so she two kitchens we were working on one to begin with. And then there's Jackie there and there's this lady there and they started arguing and I had enough. So I went out and said, Look here, you two fucking kids Shut the fuck out. We've got about 400 people. Sorry. Feet, blah, blah, blah. And I got put over to the kitchen. [01:20:30] I don't know why, but I got put into a separate kitchen. And between myself and Jackie, we had fed 400 plus people plus seconds to go around. And that was S 70th birthday, and a few days later, we were asked to go out and have at Parliament. And, um, the funny thing about that I used to work in, I think I saved you a toasty [01:21:00] one. Um, I used to work in, and the crowd that worked there on that night that we went for dinner had never seen me like this. And we were sitting there and there was about 18 or so of us in one big table and Carmen so over here and then and walks and she's sitting on a table like this, a small table on the side. So she was like visiting [01:21:30] and I thought, Well, that's unusual, but yeah, that was a good night. It was like a recognition of our community and, um, recognition of calm herself. That was amazing. And then we walked through and because the kitchen door happened to be there. And this chef particular chef who had a fancy on me then when I worked there sort of looked like this. And, you know, what I did was and it's like, Yeah, to me, that was a bonus. [01:22:00] It's like I've arrived. And since then I My main thing now is I put my work into catering food, volunteer work and stuff like that, So yeah, but I mean, overall, our lifestyle is not as bad as people think, because at times we suffer through it to be who we are. We have to take in what others give, [01:22:30] like the gay community, the bullshit harassment, discrimination, all that stuff. We have to take that in from our own family. First, the neglect, rejection, discrimination, hatred, getting beaten up by our members of family losing friends, losing family. You going to Wellington where we found our new families, and I mean, honestly, I consider most of my sisters better quality [01:23:00] than my own family. My own flesh and blood. But yeah, I love them. I thank you. I was just gonna wind it up because we must be there over time. Now, with just one funny little story. Well, I thought it was funny at some time. Can't remember the year it must have been the eighties or whenever it was, um, Gary Glitter starred [01:23:30] in The Rocky Horror Show at the Opera house in Wellington. And Carmen, of course, received complimentary tickets to go along and see The Rocky Horror Show. And Gary Glitter was playing Frank and, um so come and said Georgie, come, come with me. I've got two tickets and I thought, Oh, yeah, OK, I you know, I've been trotting along with her, obviously as a kind of lady in waiting, [01:24:00] you know, for Carmen, you know, to go and get her a cup of tea or go and get her a sandwich or go and get her ice cream or whatever like that. You always had one of us that would sort of trot along, uh, to these things on this particular night, we turn up at the opera house and we're sitting up in the circle. Her seats are at the front of the circle, you know, prime sort of VIP seats. We arrive, um, at theatre, we go to take our seats, and, of course, everyone knows Carmen, and she's Hello, darling. Hello. Lovely to see you. Oh, I must come, you know, And, [01:24:30] um and all of that and being very gracious in her own way, we go up and, um, she waited outside the door into the theatre upstairs until most people had already sat down. And then she would walk in resplendent, regal, doffing head at everybody. And then we get down to the front because we were on the front, right? Everything like that. And then she'd turn around and just take a big bow. So that [01:25:00] was lovely. And then we'd sit down and watch the show show finishes, and she, um, got up just as the lights were about the house lights were about to come up and come on. So that again, she's standing there, ready to walk up the stairs to to leave the place and just, uh, this was just part of her wonderful personality. And people loved it. They almost gave her a round of applause for it. Um, OK, so we get outside of the, uh, theatre [01:25:30] onto the landing to go downstairs and and leave the building and everything like that. Carmen had a a big velvet carpet bag. I suppose we would have called it, but it was made out of, um, velvet. So it was like you had those, um, a curtain railings, which was a big pole with two big round knobs at the end of it. And she had two of those for both sides back for some reason, she bmp the bag on the mud staircase going down and one of the balls rolled off and the bag Coll and [01:26:00] all its contents fell across the floor of the stairs, bouncing down her lipsticks, her condoms or whatever. Um, the hell bouncing down there. And would you believe she just stood there looking like a damsel in distress, And everybody else who was leaving the theatre at the same time picked up all her stuff to hand it back to her. This was the kind of command that come and could hold in a funny situation like, yeah, I got a verbal clip over the ear as we left because I just laughed when the bag all collapsed [01:26:30] down there. And I was, you know, and everything like that. She was not amused about that. And, um, and on our way, leaving the theatre, I got a bit a bit of a ear bashing from and off she get, uh, is one of our mothers. It was just the nature of Carmen. Her her? I don't know. She she seemed to attract some form of affection from people, mostly and, um, and respect in an odd sort [01:27:00] of way. So, as Kayla just said then, by the time we did stuff at party with many later years later, it was an absolute recognition. And yes, we do have a rainbow room in Parliament. We just relaunched it a few months ago. And it does have all the flags of all the rainbow communities hanging in there and the most beautiful piece of art work by, um, Elizabeth, Um, that hangs in the middle of it all, which tells its own story. Uh, what do you call that? [01:27:30] What's the of this, um, a piece of art there? And then at the other end of that select committee room at select committee room 10 or 11. And, um and the reason why we have a rainbow room is because we have a woman Suffrage room. We have a Maori Affairs Select Committee room. We have a Pacific Island room. We have a rainbow room. Um, so it just seems appropriate. And that anchors for us as a community, [01:28:00] the level of respect and acceptance. If it's in our Parliament, then, baby, you know, we we've arrived as far as that's concerned. And we are accepted on the other wall at the end, where from where all the flags are are the five pieces of legislation that have brought us to this point, and hopefully we'll add some more, Um, in the not too distant future, uh, particularly for the trans community. If there are any divisions between our rainbow community are come on, we're diverse. [01:28:30] We are gonna have disagreements and things at the moment. It is going to be this transgender issues, um, that are, um, that are rs to the top, because transgender, the term now has about 30 definitions of what a transgender person is. It's not just a trans man or a trans woman. It's just gender. It's non binary. It's gender fluid. It's a it can go on and on and on and all of that. And so and with the, um, [01:29:00] since we're also an alphabet community LGBTI, QXW and so on and so forth. Um and all of that, I think that's an example of now that generally as a rainbow community, we enjoy a level of liberty and participation in our society. That's realistic so that we can actually be positive contributors, uh, to our society and live worthwhile our lives for ourselves that don't rely us being a burden on the state, [01:29:30] which is what we ended up becoming. It makes no sense to have people just because you've got some moral issue about us. We don't invade your better. Please don't invade mine and that kind of thing. But with the transgender, um, issues these days, there's gonna be a bit of division even amongst the gay men regarding some transgender stuff. Obviously, some gay women have got issues with the trans women. That's why the I don't like using the term. I think it's a bit derogatory, but it's been commonly called the trans exclusionary radical feminists [01:30:00] turf they have. They have been now, and one of them those seminars has just been cancelled by Massey University. Uh, because of one of the controversial speakers that was coming. I'm a supporter of the freedom of speech, and I certainly don't mind, uh, that there are, um, deeply held. Um uh, contrary views to what we might think. It's about robust debate, and we must be mature enough to listen to each other and what it is we're having. But all I'm hearing now is a bitch [01:30:30] going on between these particular feminists and the transgender community and frankly, that will get us nowhere. It all is is just a scratch match between, um, both of us saying insulting and horrible and hateful and hurtful things about each other that will get us nowhere. We have to work through the issues, and I think some women who have got issues about growing transgender liberty, particularly when it comes to having pieces of law changed to, um have their non [01:31:00] binary gender acknowledged on all of their particular documents and things like that. And this is where some of these women are saying that women's spaces are now that they have fought hard for through the women's movement of the seventies and eighties. But, you know, and so on is now being encroached upon by. Well, frankly, I've been using a woman's toilet ever since I popped a frock on. And, um, I've never had an incident in any of them from women, you know, in particular. And I don't go out of my way to make them feel uncomfortable, But [01:31:30] they have some issues about just that alone, um, let alone, uh, that everything that women have fought for to get their liberty and equality. Um, and there we want the same actually seems sort of almost hypocritical that they would use the same hate prejudice, discrimination, conscious or unconscious bias. Whatever you want to call us against trans women in particular. Um, and it really isn't helpful, so I hope we move on. Um, I'll wind it up for a show. OK, so, [01:32:00] ladies and gentlemen, I think, um, there's a whole lot more we could probably talk about. There are many other people that, um, you know, could come along and and shed even more light on it. But suffice to say that the common era was an era of growth. And, um, it wasn't all easy, that's for sure. Yes, we sort of enjoyed. We had our life for our own security, frankly, and sense of community and to support each other. Uh, we all took drugs, We all. It was just that kind of pure [01:32:30] drugs, not the, um you know, um and you know, when a trip with a trip, baby speed ball, you know what I mean? And, um and it was pure. And things like heroin and cocaine was rare because it wasn't easily imported into New Zealand in those days. Uh, but when I read about the sticks and the Buddhist sticks Oh, yes, most certainly until Mr Asia got went under and all of those things. So it was quite a mix of life, [01:33:00] but, uh, I have to say, in the 30 40 years, as you know, as before, our lives as a rainbow community have been extraordinarily liberated, and we are living more fulfilling lives. We can pursue whatever endeavour we want to go for now. And if someone throws discrimination in our face or prejudice in our face, we have law that backs up to fight it, to call it out to stamp it out. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for spending some time with us telling a few stories. [01:33:30] Um, about the era, Um, I think with the next exhibition, because I'm sure there's some more photos to come out. We can more properly cover the eighties and and onwards because this exhibition essentially covers the, um, sixties through to the mid seventies and starting the the eighties. So thank you all have a wonderful evening and go all blacks. [01:34:00] Oh, just some light refreshments are being, um, served over here. So before you all whiz away, please have a wee drink, and I'd bite to eat and, uh, thank you to the New Zealand Portrait Gallery for hosting this particular session on, um, the car era. Cheers.

IRN: 2093
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/a_rainbow_in_the_village_2019.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004575
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089869
TITLE: A Rainbow in the Village (2019)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Andrew Needs; Ann-Marie Stapp; Anna Walsh; Christopher Drinkwater; Coral Trimmer; Corinne Guldmann; Danielle Burns; Donna Reed; Hugh Young; Jac Lynch; Jessica Bryan; Jon Trimmer; Linda McLaughlan; Mark Amery; Pat McIntosh; Rob Sumby; Robert O'Shea; Val Little; Will Walsh
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; A Rainbow in the Village; Andrew Needs; Ann-Marie Stapp; Anna Walsh; Antarctica; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Austria; Bible; Campbell Park; Cardinal Bi Crikey; Christopher Drinkwater; Coral Trimmer; Corinne Guldmann; Danielle Burns; Donna Reed; Dublin; Dykes on Bikes; Fire and Emergency New Zealand; Georgina Beyer; Hugh Young; InsideOUT Kōaro; Ireland; Jac Lynch; Jessica Bryan; Jon Trimmer; Kapiti Coast District Council; Kapiti Youth Support; Kate Torrens; Labour weekend; Linda McLaughlan; London; Mark Amery; NZ Transport Agency (NZTA); Paekākāriki; Paekākāriki Pops; Paekākāriki Pride; Pat McIntosh; Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD); Pride parade; Project Youth (Kapiti Youth Support); Rainbow Crossing (Paekākāriki); Rainbow flag; Rob Sumby; Robert O'Shea; St Peter's Village Hall; Stonewall riots (1969); Sweden; Tasmania; The World's (Unofficial) Shortest Pride Parade; Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); Transgender flag; United Kingdom; Val Little; Will Walsh; activism; activities; bigotry; bike ride; bullying; bullying prevention; celebration; children; clothing; community; cycling; dance; dance party; disability; disco; diversity; family; film festival; gay; homophobia; homosexual law reform; hookups; hug; inclusion; knitting; lesbian; love; marriage equality; moon landing (1969); paekakariki. nz; petition; pride; primary school; protest; queer; rainbows; reading; religion; retirement; rural; safe space; sea; shortest pride parade; solidarity; suicide; taiko; trans; transgender; transphobia; unicorn; yarn bombing; Ōtaki
DATE: 26 October 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Paekākāriki, Paekākāriki, Kapiti Coast District
CONTEXT: Organisers, participants and spectators talk about the world's (unofficial) shortest pride parade - held during Paekakariki's annual pride festival.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: OK, I'm Pat McIntosh. I'm part of, um, vinyl and proud with my partner and lovely wife, Val Little. And, um, I'm standing on the main road or street of at the yearly labour weekend A rainbow in the village festival that's been going for three years now. And, um, how did it start? It started with a dance party, uh, way back four years ago. And, uh, we were aware [00:00:30] that Georgina buyer was struggling with health issues, and, um, it wasn't looking good, so we decided to just raise some money for Georgie to do whatever Georgie wanted to do with it. So she came along to, um the first, uh, the first dance party we call it. Did we call it a rainbow? I think we did. We did. We did. So we called it a rainbow in the village, and we had this amazing night of of raising funds and having this great dance, and it was like I think it was probably about half past one after we'd packed up, or [00:01:00] it might have been the next morning, but after over a drink, we thought we actually need to do something with this idea and turn it into a rainbow festival. So we basically got on book the hall for the next three years, and, um and, um yeah, and decided if we're going to do this, we have to commit to losing our labour weekends. So we both agreed, and we got a team of people, lovely people around us, and and thus a rainbow in the village was formed into the Pride Festival. So, Val, what is [00:01:30] the Pride festival now? Now it's It's kind of like a growing beast. It's, um so it's three years old. The the festival part of it, um, it's quite naughty. Yeah. I mean, we to be honest, we don't get permission to do most of it. Um, we've had some interesting conversations with the local council just over the last week. They've been amazing. Actually, they could close us down because we don't follow any rules. Um, but from going forward, [00:02:00] So yeah, so now it's, um you know, we started the the first one was the parade, and we we've coined it. We've claimed it as the world's shortest pride parade, which is basically just across the crossing. Yeah, the pedestrian crossing, which is painted every year by some Banksy artists in the village. We wake up and there it is. There's a there's a rainbow crossing and it just sort of pops up and we go. Gosh, that looks good But I think they've outdone [00:02:30] themselves this year because it's looking absolutely stunning. And and have you done research? And have you found that this is the shortest pride parade in the world? There's one other in the states that didn't email me back when I asked them to give them the length of their one. But after doing a bit of research, it seemed that our one is, you know, we tried for his book of records on the first attempt, but, um, they said, they say there's no category or something for things like that for length. I don't know. Um, So anyway, we we've claimed it as the [00:03:00] unofficial world's shortest, and nobody's, you know, come back to us or push back about it. So we we're owning that. So every year we start, they assemble down at Camp Park, Uh, we call the war up for the parade down the parade. Then they come down on Beach Street with Taco drummers. And then we have a ribbon and we cut it and all the kids at the front, and everyone runs across well, walks across the crossing. And that's the official parade. Yeah, and it's just a buzz. So buzzy. So yeah, [00:03:30] And so from that we've we've, you know, added quite a few other events. So there's always a dance party. We had the world's smallest film festival last year. We did one film, so we're sort of into that sort of style of we're sort of the the earliest ever. Well, we think we're the earliest dance party Rainbow Dance Party, because it's finishing at 10 45 tonight due to noise control in the village. So you know, But it's four hours, but it's, you know, it does finish early, but, you know, things rock a bit different in the village, don't they? So but no, we we've [00:04:00] had big buy in this year from the school. They were the first, uh, inside out has come. They came up this week, and, uh, they told me that, uh, it was the first primary school in New Zealand to invite inside out. So that happened this week. So We're pretty chuffed about that. And and the kids have been tie dying T shirts and it's just like, uh, I don't know, There's just a real buzz so that, you know, the whole village has picked up on it. So we've got a quiz night happening on Sunday night. [00:04:30] Um, and the proceeds from that are going to go to school for their rainbow resources. So they're going to buy books for their library. Um, training, I guess. For the teachers support for students that might need it. Yes. The other one is going to youth services. Uh, the project youth, um, side of it. And they got all the funds last year that we raised this year. We decided to split it and bring some back into back into the primary school into, But they'll be getting all the rest of the funds from the dance tonight [00:05:00] and the other events that we're running. So Yeah. So there's 10 events all together. Yeah. Yeah. So it's sort of grown into this beast day, and we wanted it to be as inclusive and family friendly and everything. So we've got picnics and a swim. What else have we got the rain through the park. Um, we've got a rainbow launch of a book by Kate Torrance, Rainbow Rider that that's been happening here in the village Sunday Exclusive exclusive thing [00:05:30] I was looking for exclusive, so, yeah, we've got some lovely stuff, and it just everyone gets behind it, so yeah, and it's a safe place because you've the research has just come out. You say, counting ourselves? Yeah, has a very high incidence of youth suicide. Yeah, Um, there was a spate a few years ago. Um, and yeah, it's Yeah, it's a very mixed kind of community. So we're really aware that [00:06:00] there are a lot of young people who don't feel safe or feel ok about being themselves. So, you know, this is a real nod to to safety, inclusion, belonging. Yeah, And we we saw it on the faces of the, uh, project youth that came down. They actually lead our parade last year, and and just to be in a real inclusive environment, and you could see them just shining. And we actually had someone come out in our very first festival way after they were performing, and they actually came out to the group. So, [00:06:30] you know, it was a big, big move by him. And, um yeah, and it just feels like a really safe environment for Labour weekend for people to come to and see that, um, you know that I don't know What's the word? There's love, It's not Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We all can live together and love each other and, uh, and embrace diversity. And can you talk about some of the participants like the the the numbers of people that come and where they're coming from? Well, we, uh, the parade's probably got about 300 [00:07:00] people that that we've got that comes along to it. Um, and the dance party will have about 100 and 60 70 people that comes to that. Um, and then the Rainbow Picnic. We probably had about 50 60 people there last year. So it's it's building. It's sort of word of mouth. It's but but we want to keep it sort of boutique and not have AAA commercial huge commercial, um, influence on this. So, um and people are coming from I mean, we've got people that come down from Auckland for it. Wellington, of course, we're trying [00:07:30] to get people to come up on the trains, but there's never trains on Labour Weekend, but, you know, come up from for a day or a couple of days. Come and stay camp or get yourself a book of batch. So word's getting around a people from Palmerston North for coming down from the rainbow community up there. So you know, it's it's it's got a real vibe. Nice vibe. And what about, um, sponsorship is Are there businesses sponsoring you? We've got this year for the first time, we had the community trust Come on board and give us money. So basically, you help us with the hall hire. So [00:08:00] that's that's sort of covered that So that's great. So that means all funds from that the dance and the weekend you're having the hall, uh, raised. Go back to youth services, which is cool. Um, the business is get on board with donating prices for the night. Um, we've had great response from them. Um, and other than that, there's no commercial. Uh, well, we we donate our services as well. I'm proud. And we DJ DJ the dance for free. And I think I mean, that's Our point of difference is that we're not a big sort of, you know, we [00:08:30] we don't have sponsorship. We don't. It's not a corporate kind of institution, you know, lead thing. It's just a village pride festival, basically, right at the start, it was sort of a, um that's how we wanted to run it. So And we had a great group, you know, of of people in the village that are on board doing this. So if you want to run through Daniel Daniel So she runs the parade. She's the most unflappable person I think I've ever met. So she herds cats, [00:09:00] um, literally down the parade. And, um, yeah, so she's amazing. Chrissie, you've probably seen heaps of, um, yarn bombing around the the rainbow yarn bombing. That's wonderful, Chrissy. She makes, um, rainbow hats. She knits everything. She's Yeah, she did a rainbow readings to the kids last week, so that was really cool. Um, so she's just so proactive. So she's put PICO on the map with, I should say, with the yarn bombing, you know, it's lovely to come into the village and just see all this beautiful rainbow [00:09:30] everywhere. So, uh, yeah, And so it's a small committee of about five of us, and then we just sort of feed out the events to other people that come on board. We found that's the easiest way to do it. So But we've got a sort of template now that's working. So, uh, yeah, we'll just have to get a bit more legal, I guess. I suppose we do. Now there has been, uh, two pieces of controversy that I'm aware of. One was, uh, this rainbow crossing. Can you tell me what's happened this year for? For four years. When we [00:10:00] first did Georgie's dance, we arrived in the village. I was actually living over in the hut and we drove in on the morning to set up, and it had been chalked a rainbow, and it was just beautiful. It just put a big in her face. So we thought, Oh, that is gorgeous. Next year it got chalked again. Uh, that's the second year, Third year it got painted by some Banksy. It it it it it was. It was the thought was there. But it was a little bit messy, and I think they've taken the feedback on board and done a beautiful job this [00:10:30] year, so it's totally illegal. So we have bank A Banksy, a Banksy in the village that does this, Uh, and it just pops up. You wake up and you've got a rainbow crossing complaint. There was one complaint to the council. They have to act on it. Um, and they were saying because it confuses drive drivers. I don't know why. Because it actually, if you look at it, the white Pops better, I reckon, than just the grey. But anyway, so there we go. Yeah, somebody's actually just crossed the road. Um, are you able to tell me, were you confused crossing [00:11:00] the rainbow crossing? No. No, not at all. I was actually going to offer this, um, water blast out the white stripes. So it's just colours. Only you get rid of the white and it'll all be fine, wouldn't it? No. I think I think it's nonsense that someone's confused about that personally. Yeah, looks good. I think there's, you know, possible homophobia at the core of that one. But, you know, we don't know. And there's a rules. Um, rainbow crossings are popping up all around the world. Uh, and Town's done one. [00:11:30] Wellington's done one palmy has done one, but it's binding Palmerston North. Many people, um, but it's finding a way around the NZT a laws to to actually get something happening. So we're going to have to get creative. Um, it won't look like that. But if if we can get the village behind us to do something like this and put on the map as you know, we wanted to be the first We talked about it three years ago, but But we'd got council said, You know, No, you can't do it. So basically, we need to do a good pitch, get the village behind [00:12:00] us, do a good proposal and see what we can do. A petition going at the moment to get a permanent fixture. But you know who knows it. So what is the council going to do now that it's painted? They were supposed to come yesterday to water blast it off, So we kind of milling around, see if you know this water Blaster was going to turn up, but it didn't. So I guess it get done on Tuesday when they're open again. And, you know, we've heard through the grapevine. It's been done with, um, proper safety road marking temp paint [00:12:30] that they use. So it's not like they've come in and done done it stupidly. They've thought about about it this year, so yeah, so it's safe and, um, yeah, they will. They will water blast that off on Tuesday, but it's it was great that they didn't actually do it yesterday because the look on the kids' faces has been amazing. The kids love it. You see lots of people having their photos taken on it and everything. So yeah, it puts a smile on people's face. How can you know you're not going to turn, turn rainbow just from walking across the rainbow [00:13:00] crossing? Well, we try. But hey, now, the other thing that I was aware of was, um, a couple of days ago, Um um, the organisers put out a statement saying that there wasn't to be any bullying, belittling or discriminatory behaviour. Why was that necessary? Oh, there's been, um, some pretty awful activity around, um, towards trans women. Specifically, um, there's a few people who live up this way that hold some quite [00:13:30] strong views about, you know, trans women are not real women, so we don't want that kind of element here at all. We absolutely stand beside our Trans and we just felt like it was really important to make that statement so that if we do see anything like that, we can act on it. We've now got given ourselves a mandate to do that. Um, I mean, last year we had some 33 guys reading the Bible just down there beside the what used to be the post office. They were just quietly reading the Bible. It's fine, you know, [00:14:00] like they were cardinal by crikey came along, Jack Lynch and, you know, had a good chat to them and, you know, then we got it sorted. I mean, they weren't nasty. They were just maybe confused. Maybe they just needed to go across the crossing. They just wanted to see what a pride festivals like. So that's their way of just coming in, having a little look. They looked like the unhappiest people here. So you know. But you know, if there's if there's outright kind of hatred or or, you know, just, um, just really bad messaging, we we're gonna stamp [00:14:30] on it Basically, we made the decision a number of months ago to put the the trans flag with the rainbow flag. This year we had two rainbow flags last year. So put the trans flag up, so yeah, so we we you know, we just want to get people. Um, I don't know is I hate it when when our own community starts tearing each other apart, it sort of feels like we're back at the homosexual law reform. And we don't want to do that. Yeah, So just just finally, um, personally, what does, [00:15:00] um, putting on this pride festival mean to you both? I mean, I could I don't know, pride. It's just I just I feel really proud. And I feel really lucky that we live in this country in this village that is, that we have the laws that we do, that we've come as far as we have. Um, but it's also a nod that we've still got work to do, you know, um and I think this is just a really joyful way of, of getting everybody on board and keeping [00:15:30] going, keeping the movement going, And for me, it's like, you know, you remember your own coming out story. And as an older, uh, lesbian, it's like, I want to create a safe space on the coast. And this village is the ideal place to do it from. And, um, for our younger youth, um, that to come and come Come here. Yeah. And celebrate it with families. Um, it's such a diverse, wonderful community that that is holding it. So it's the perfect place to, um, [00:16:00] just bring them here for Labour Weekend and show them how How, um, our community is diverse. And how How much love There is so very important with our youth that's coming through. Can S You've just walked across the rainbow crossing. Um What? What do you think about it? I thought it was very bright and cheerful and gives a good feeling for the town. I love it. It's great. Were you confused by crossing? No, not at all. Not at all. And do you think drivers would be confused [00:16:30] when they see that? No, no, no. Do you think we're older drivers, so they'll be fine. Do you think it should be a permanent crossing like this? Absolutely. Yes. Why is that? Oh, because I think it represents the pride New Zealand and also just a nice thing for yes, I agree. Yeah, and kids will grow up with it, too. So that's very powerful. My [00:17:00] name's Rob SUNY and we're in ST Peter's Hall in Pai and Rob, something very special is going to happen this afternoon. Yeah, yes, there's going to be a pride parade, followed by a kids' disco and then the pride dance. And what's your involvement? Um, I've been assisting with the organisation and, um, putting up the bunting, balloons and the decorations for the dance party as well as [00:17:30] the after party. Can you describe, um, the layout of the hall and what it looks like? OK, the layout is, um so we've got a fairly traditional hall. We've got, um, rainbow flags. Um, fairy lights. We've got balloons filled with helium with long ribbons on them. Um, yeah, that's well in something quite large in the centre of the space, which [00:18:00] is a rocket like a rocket. Um, because the theme is space oddity. And that being because it's the 50th year, 50th year anniversary of landing on the Moon and the 50th year anniversary of Stonewall also and stonewall was the the kind of New York uprising? Yes. Yeah. Um, so yeah, so something so, so two things to sort of celebrate, you know, landing on the moon and also [00:18:30] recognising Stonewall at the same time, Which do you think was more important? Stonewall. So So how did you get involved in organising, uh, two very good friends of mine, Um asked if I would get involved and I said, yes, I would, Um I just sort of, um, just graduated as a nurse, and so I had some free time, and so I was available and yeah, so I thought, Yeah, I'll get involved. So I did. And and so what do you [00:19:00] get out of it? Well, working with friends, Um, And I suppose also getting to know a wider, you know, actually creating a bit of a wider network of friends within the community and and as a whole, because I've been fairly transient, you know, come and go out for work purposes. So not much haven't had that much time to get to know people in the community. So this is a really good way of doing that. So yeah. So So directly outside the hall. We've got the, um, amazing rainbow [00:19:30] crossing, and that is where the Pride Parade happens. What is it like seeing hundreds of people walk across that crossing? Fantastic. It's a It's a fabulous, um, the gay community as well as, um, it involves everyone in the community, so it's not just exclusively gay. It actually involves everyone in the community, but it's like, um, it's it's a togetherness, you know? So, [00:20:00] yeah, that's probably the best way I can describe it. Is everyone coming together and supporting each other? So And what is the kind of feeling that you get when you when when you see all those people, Um uh, I feel supported. And there's a network of people out there, and, um, it's encouraging. It's, um, empowering all those really wonderful sort of, you know, cliche words that you you know one can use. Um, [00:20:30] but yeah, most of all, I think it's like you feel like part of a family. That's the big thing. Yeah. What about the difference between having like a a local pride and a say, a larger pride in in a main city? Um, are there any differences? Community? So um, a smaller event means that the community is more involved, and it's also an opportunity for them to get to know each other more, You know, on a on a closer level. Um, a bigger [00:21:00] event is, um you know, again, more people. Um, So you don't perhaps get that that sort of perhaps intimacy that you would with a more a more a local event? Um, yeah, that's really the best way I can. Sort of, um yeah. Sort of describe a larger event as opposed to a local event. Yeah. So you're relying on the local community to do things, whereas in a wider event, you might have a wider community involvement. [00:21:30] Um, so, yeah, and just finally, what's your most favourite pride memory? Uh uh. Really? The dance party? Yeah. Just being able to get out there and just, you know, shake it about and just Yeah, have fun and see my friends. So, yeah, would probably be the dance party. He's a bit of a show, too. Uh, yeah. So that's my favourite thing. Um, of the of the of [00:22:00] Sort of like the weekend, So, yeah, I'm sitting on the beautiful coast of Pai on the coast of, uh, the Wellington region. Um, and I'm watching the sea just lightly roll in, but it is a bit chilly. I think this is southerly off that south island over there. My hometown Just over there. Um, so we are about to take off on the third, uh, unofficial smallest pride parade. [00:22:30] Uh, this is the third one, and I've been to the other two. Last year I was the first dike on a bike, and, uh, it was pretty cool. But this year, my feet are too sore to to manage that. So I'm here, and I'm gonna try and walk it. Uh, I think I think this is wonderful. This is this little lesbian haven for the last 30 years that I know of, and a lot of, um, lesbian couples retire [00:23:00] to this area. I myself, I'm from So that's about 50 K up the line. Um, but I wanted to be with my friends today, Even though you were saying this is the possibly the shortest pride parade. There's still a lot of people that turn up, aren't there. I seem to remember the hundreds of us last year, and, uh, and then there's a few 100 waiting for us at the other end. The first year we did it, we did it in the evening. And we coincided it with walking across the pedestrian crossing into the hall to have a dance. And, [00:23:30] uh, that that was, uh, fairly hilarious because it looked like the Pride parade was crossing the crossing. That was it. So it really was very short. Um, but this is not as short as you think it is. This is a long, um, coastal road, and, uh, I haven't measured the route. And, um, my feet are already starting to complain, and we haven't started yet, but unofficial shortest pride parade. I think there's an application to Guinness Book of Records for that to be true. Um, And I hope that is [00:24:00] why is it important for, um, uh, local communities to have pride, pride, events, pride, parades rather than the, you know, kind of larger, just larger cities. I think that comes back to the issue of local local response local community connection, that that's where we have to go. We've had years of corporate big think big, and this is the local community saying this is ours. This is us. And you can see that in the painted, um, pedestrian crossing [00:24:30] down by where the hall is, where we will end up. Of course, that's been beautifully chopped up into rainbow and, uh, various, uh, flag colours, um, and has been met with a complaint from a local community. Homophobe, uh, and, um, I believe the council's gonna water blasted off. But we I noticed at about two o'clock this morning that little the organiser of this parade has started a petition that this pedestrian crossing being be painted in rainbow colours [00:25:00] like we have in Wellington. And, um, and that this village of Paki claimed that it is the lesbian haven of the world. So what do you get out of, uh, pride events and Pride parades? I'm a disabled dyke. I don't get out very much. I have multiple sclerosis. Um, I've recently this year been quite crippled with arthritis. On top of that, and I have, uh, PTSD, which makes me highly anxious. And it's difficult to be out and about so I don't get out and about [00:25:30] like I used to when I was in my twenties. I'm in my fifties now. And this is my annual event. This is where I come, and, um, I see people I don't see all year apart from on Facebook or Twitter. And I get my annual hugs, lots of them, and, um, get to have a quick chat chat, and then I get to go home and the safety of my own home. Put my feet up and relax, knowing that, um, I'm still part of something. That's very cool. We're in on the, uh, [00:26:00] parade, and we're about to take part in the world's most, uh, the world's unofficial shortest parade parade. Well, is this the first time you've been in a parade? Yes, it is. Yes, it is. So how are you feeling? A bit nervous, but, um, yeah, I'm excited. Have you seen parades on on TV or on the Net before? Yeah, Yeah, I've, um I always love looking at them and, um, keeping up with all the ones around the world. And so, um, who are you here [00:26:30] today with, uh, I'm here with, um my group from KES. Uh, we're a little after school group that meets every Wednesdays. Um, and we just, you know, get together and hang out. And, um, we just support each other. And so why are those kind of groups important? It's really, really important because it gives you the opportunity to actually come out of your shell, you know, not have to hide anything. Um, and it's great because once you start talking about it [00:27:00] and once you, um you know you can start to understand everything and it's helped me a lot, you know, understand who I am and who I want to be. Why do you think, uh, pride, parades? Pride events are important because it's a celebration of the community that we have. And, um, it's you know, it's showing that we're here and, um, you know, we're part of the community, and, um, we're a really strong family together. And, um, when we're [00:27:30] all together, you know we can accomplish great things. I am Daniel. I'm one of the organisers of the Pride Festival and the parade. And so today, in just about maybe 20 minutes, we'll start the parade. We expect a couple 100 people to come down. What's special about this parade? Um, well, I guess it's special because of Kiriki is so special. We've got such a beautiful, diverse community. Um, and a lot of people willing to come out and support our rainbow [00:28:00] community. And I've heard it's the shortest breed. Yeah, well, it is pretty short. Paki is small, so we don't even do the whole length of the village. Um, so it's from Campbell Park to Saint Peter's home. And so can you describe, um, the participants who who takes part, um, heaps and heaps of our community do? The school is a huge part of it. We'll have lots of the kids come out today. We've made tie dye T shirts over the week, and they've made a beautiful banner with the kids. [00:28:30] Uh, handprints. So I think all of the kids in the school have put a handprint on their banner. Um, and we have people that come from Wellington all over the coast. Um, just come to with us. So why do you think localised pride events are important? I think it helps to celebrate our smaller communities. The big pride events are amazing because, of course, we're all celebrating together, and we get hundreds and hundreds of people. But when it's the small community, it feels so much [00:29:00] more closer to home, and we get to celebrate together with people that we see every day. There's been a little bit of controversy this year with the Rainbow Crossing and that apparently it's been, um, confusing and dazzling drivers. Um, what's your take on that? Uh, well, we do. We do understand that, Uh, it's it's something that we need to get done legally. Um, and it has been done over the last few years. There's always seems to be a group that comes out and does it either in chalk or this year. I think it's temporary road paint. Um, we [00:29:30] all think most people in the community think it's an absolutely wonderful thing, but we do have to get it done legally, and that's going to be going through NZ. Can you describe for me the feeling of actually doing the march doing the parade? Um, and what that's like, Oh, goodness. Well, I think any pride parade pride march is a wonderful thing because, well, I mean, originally, it was a protest, you know, a political demonstration, and nowadays it is a celebration. So it's a beautiful thing. And when we come out and [00:30:00] we have all the kids and our community dresses up and everyone's really colourful. And there's music. It's just it's a lovely feeling. And it feels like an inclusive community, which it is. The thing that really struck me is that it feels a lot more kind of grassroots and localised and not having a lot of kind of corporate sponsorship. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. We don't really have any interest in getting corporate sponsorship. Um, we will hopefully get funding from the, uh, district council in the future [00:30:30] so we can do maybe some larger events, get a stage and music. Um, but yeah, it's really just keeping it local. Always. And so what? Um, what do pride events mean to you? It's a celebration. It's celebrating where we've come from, what we've achieved over time and in the future, making it even better for our tamariki. Well, this is a big welcome to Campbell Park Getting ready for the thousands that are going [00:31:00] to turn up for the parade. Now, this is the third year of the parade. Have you been in previous parades? Yeah, I came last year. Yeah, it was great. Can you describe what the feeling was like, Oh, just really passionate and fun and noisy and whistles and shouting and yeah, yeah, I. I think for me the best was the public waving from their houses and calling out and really awesome supported. Yeah. Now, this is a really special parade [00:31:30] because it is the shortest pride parade in the world. Um, but before that pride parade actually goes across the rainbow crossing, um, there's a a 10, 15 minute walk from here at Campbell Park, Um, along the beach front to the pedestrian crossing. And that's it's the pedestrian crossing. That's the measurement. We've got to beat Antarctica this year. Surely. What? What happens in Antarctica? They beat us for the shortest gay parade. Why do you think pride [00:32:00] parades are important? Oh, that's a good one. That's because the straight parades every day, actually, I've just come back from London and, um and, uh, the pride there was, uh, 30,000 more, the response to participate and a million on the side of the road. So to go from that to the goodness Book of records world shortest parades, Just a [00:32:30] So So why do you think, um, doing a local parade is important verse something say like a A large pride parade in a city, Uh, because and it ends at Saint Peter's, and and the minister at Saint Peter's refused to marry a same sex couple. So then the idea came well, we'll colour the pedestrian crossing straight to the church and and it just blossomed from that from that. So you know, it's about claiming back, isn't it? And to do [00:33:00] it small and locally, you know there's no big business. There's no army trucks. There's no big Corporates. It's just community and family. I'm L. I'm from Austria. But we currently live in New Zealand in Wellington, and a friend of ours told us about it, and I think it's a good thing to do. Have you ever been to like a really localised kind of smallish pride parade before? No, I haven't been. Actually, I've been to the big one in Austria, [00:33:30] but, uh, in Austria we had a while ago. We had a quite a small parade as well, and it was actually the reason was because there was a homophobic attack attack in a small local village. And then they organised this parade, which I think was a really good thing, and a lot of people showed up. So yeah, so have either of you been in pride parades before? No. No. And so what do you expect? What's the feeling you think you'll get? Um, [00:34:00] I think I'm just just it's kind of novelty that you're just walking across a crossing. It's kind of fun, But it's also exciting that it is a small place because usually small places are known as being more homophobic and not accepting. So it's it's just exciting. Yeah, yeah, I think so, too. I think it's good to bring it out of the cities to the countryside a little bit And actually, yeah, so more people and get more people involved. And [00:34:30] I think that's a good thing. Why are pride? Pride is important. Uh, I think they're still important. I mean, we have more, uh, gay people have more rights now, and, uh, but still, it's important to show that, uh, we're still not there where we want to be. And I think that's a good cause. And you when you see those parades and families joining and, uh, a lot of straight people join as well. I think That's a really good, uh, thing that's happening now You just add that it's good to always celebrate being yourself, [00:35:00] but it's also important to remember historically how far um, LGBT plus community has come. Um, and always good to be more visible I'm a poor and lonely cowboy Bye man On a long and dusty road I'm looking for a place where I can lay my load I'm fractured and I'm tired [00:35:30] I need to rest my head There's a place down there In where I can get a bed Lonely cowboy on a long and dusty, lonely Cal on a long and dusty road It's a cowboy song, Really It's not really a fine man song [00:36:00] farming some more fast like this. Yeah, I'm so my name is Jessica. Brian. And I'm representing fins. Yeah, uh, me as well So far. An emergency in New Zealand and the volunteer Fire Brigade. And is this the first [00:36:30] time that you've been in the parade? Yes, it is for me. Uh, yeah. We watched the first year, though, from the sidelines. Yeah, And can you describe what the first year was like? Um, yeah, it was just like a really nice experience. There's lots of community atmosphere, um, and sort of friends of ours and helped to organise it. So it was really cool to see, um, how much they were able to bring together and how much support there was within the community. Yeah, it was, um we just caught the end of it. It was very colourful and bright and busy and yeah, looking [00:37:00] forward to that again today. And so today, not only have you brought yourselves, but you've also brought, um, some equipment here. Oh, yeah. So we've brought the fire truck along. Um, and we also have a, like, four wheel drive unit that we've got along as well. And about, um, maybe eight members of our crew are coming along. So why is it important for the, um, fire and emergency to to be in a parade like this? Um, I think, Well, we're both queer, So I think it's nice to show that we support, uh, our diverse, diverse range of people [00:37:30] and backgrounds. Um, And to show that we're there to support the community. Yeah. Yeah, I think especially for us being the brigade and looking out for Paki as a community is a really diverse place. This is us showing that we're supporting our local community. You know, we're part of that all as individuals as well. So it's important that we represent and so as individuals. What what do pride events mean to you? Um, it's a time just to celebrate our differences and come together. [00:38:00] Yeah, for us, it's just another day of being ourselves, and, um, being able to do that in a supportive, inclusive environment. Hi, my name's Roanne, and I've been coming to these parades for a number of years. And what keeps you coming back to these parades? Um, it's just a great chance for the community to show its support for, um LBGTQ. Can you describe, um, the first time you you were in the parade? Well, it was a lot smaller than it is now. It's gathered some momentum, which is really great, and it's really nice [00:38:30] to see supportive of it. So lots of neighbours put out, you know, pride, flags and to and wave at everyone as they go past. I'm pretty sure if you had this sort of thing in some place you probably get beer cans thrown at you So, you know, we're really lucky that he is so supportive of it. Can you tell me, uh, can you describe the feeling of what it's like to to to be in a parade? Um oh, it's just a feeling of community. Really? Um, and it's just [00:39:00] I mean, it's only once a year, and it means that we don't have to travel in town, and lots of people come here. And there's so many events that are around us. So we've got, um, the dance tonight. We had a quiz night last year, and I think we've got one today. Oh, sorry. This weekend, um, there's swimming. There's family. So yeah, it's bike rides. Um, yeah, it's it's really encompassing. Why are pride events? Pride Parade is important [00:39:30] help out here. Why? A pride parade is important. Oh, because it's an opportunity to, you know, for the community to come together visibly and be seen and feel OK to be a scene. And, um, yeah, it's that for so long, it's not been, um, acceptable. And now we're finally having that opportunity to be proud of who we are and, um, stand collectively, so yeah, yeah. What? She said [00:40:00] my name's Debbie, and, um, we're looking at a beautiful rainbow pride flag the epitome of the the parade. Really? It it leads the parade. It it shows our pride for for the weekend. And it just gets everything going for for and and just excites everybody. It just makes the day. Can you describe what you're wearing? Uh, I'm actually wearing the, um the gay flag, the flag and, uh, various [00:40:30] other very, um, colourful pride out, uh, articles. Um, this year I've brought my drum along to make lots of noise and the zoo to get going. So hopefully everyone's in really good spirits, and we will join in with us. Yeah, and I'm I'm wearing a little ensemble of rainbow colours. Uh, I think I don't I don't know a colourful, um, rainbow lay. And we have a local Who? A wonderful woman. Chrissy who, um, knits these fantastic, [00:41:00] um rainbow little cat hats type thing. And we've, of course, got our added little hair pieces. And I've got a tambourine. Now. Does Chrissy also do the yarn bombing that I've seen around town? Yes, she's just fantastic. And she, um she did some fantastic stuff for the school and read, um, a whole lot of, um, queer friendly books to the kids. And yeah, she's a a local Jim. Absolutely. Yeah, we [00:41:30] love we love Chrissy. Every time you go out, you see somewhere that she's been again and we know that Chrissy's around the village. So tell me, what is it like to march in this pride parade? It's fantastic. It's We've been every year since it started, and it is just it just fills your heart. It's really wonderful to be in a community where we we're walking along the parade with the sea on one side and all these people coming out from on the house and the houses cheering us and and everyone's just so happy and it sounds really [00:42:00] cliche, but it's so full of love and so full of joy, and it's for everybody. It's It's wonderful. Yeah, we just love to see the whole village get involved with with us. Um, a lot of the time we don't see a lot of these people in the village, and this is one day where everyone comes out and celebrates and just gets right into it. So what do you think The difference is between having, um, uh, this localised parade and say, a larger parade say, in Wellington or Auckland. Um, I think it's just really close knit community, the feel about [00:42:30] it. Everyone is really on board and, um, and wants to celebrate with us. Yeah, and it is about being home and, you know, like feeling this village is for everyone. And we all celebrate our differences and our diversity and and who we are. So it's, um it just feels because it's smaller, it's smaller and it's more intimate. There's no, um, big corporate kind of anything. It's just us and everything that we bring with it. And what gorgeous weather I know. It's [00:43:00] just we were windy, but it's great for the flags. And, um, it's a typical day. Oh, open up your closet door. 5678. Don't assume your kids are straight. Me? Open [00:43:30] up the closet door. 5678 Don't assume your kids are straight. Do be Open up the closet door. 5678. Don't assume your kids are straight. Fine. Yeah, sure. Sorry. I [00:44:00] yeah. Ah, no, him He is. My name is Hugh Young. I've been out since, uh, 1986. And, uh, I was in a long time before that, and, [00:44:30] uh, it's just lovely to be out with people who don't care what you are. Hugh, can you describe, um, the atmosphere today? Oh, it's joyous. It's lovely. It's a wonderful atmosphere. Is this Is this the first time you've you? You've marched in the parade at? No, it's the second, um, two years ago I came, but I saw how far we had to go, and I didn't do the whole distance. Just the pedestrian crossing. Why are pride parades so important? Oh, it's solidarity. [00:45:00] It's friendship. It's, um, hooking up. It's I've never hooked up at a grade that I can remember, but, um, no, it's, um, it's It's It's I think it's very good for the general public to see that, um, people are much more varied than they might have imagined. Um, it's it's, uh, it's It's a lovely human event and it's holiday. It's festive. You know when When we when we've got an excuse [00:45:30] for a party, Let's do it. Oh, it's great, doesn't it? Lovely. All the colours are the kids dancing. It's fun. Can you describe what we're in amongst at the moment. Oh, well, here at the front, we've got the big pride flag, and we've got heaps of the kids carrying it. Some of them are going under it and out of it in front of it all over. And we got the school just behind us with their beautiful banner and then the rest of our lovely community. Oh, my God. It's just a a giggle of gay coming down the the the road. Now, [00:46:00] um, they're blind in the breeze. They rainbow flags, uh, full out there. There's a couple of absolute queers coming past here with the whole drum set and everything. Keep going. Is this the first pride parade you've seen here? Uh, we've only been here a couple of months, so, uh, yeah, but we were looking forward to it. So, uh, and it's good. They've got a nice Well, it is a nice day. It's a bit breezy, but it's sunny, uh, compared to what we've had. So it's nice that everyone's out, and I'd say there's a lot of people [00:46:30] pull from here, but I'd say there's also people that have caught the train in or driven up from Wellington. So nice to see people supporting. Is it the shortest or the smallest? I think it's the shortest. Certainly not the smallest. Right? Fantastic. Yeah. No, it's cool. Very cool. And how how many is this? This This is the well, this will be the third year that they've They've marched. Um, but I think the first time that the fire service has been here, right? Yeah. OK, well, that's a volunteer fire service there's about. I think that's our next door neighbour here is in [00:47:00] the volunteer fire service. She said there's about 40 of them all together, so they're a pretty vital part of the community, so Yeah, Cool. Welcome, everybody to the podcast and that we crossing shit. Not sure. [00:47:30] The shortest pride. Pride. Right here. Let's do Hey. Oh, let's have a big round of applause for the Macoco drummers. Thank you all very much for coming and supporting this [00:48:00] event. And thank you. Beautiful people. Beautiful community, everybody that's come out to make this what it is today. Thank you very, very much. So you have Pride Festival weekend. Why do we do this? Originally, the pride parades were protests. There were political demonstrations. But today it's a celebration. It's a celebration of what we've achieved over the time. It's a celebration of ourselves and our social acceptance. It's a celebration of our diversity. [00:48:30] So we celebrate and thank you for all celebrating with us all weekend. We have events and of course it's all to celebrate. We love celebrating the rainbow community, but we also do it for our tamariki. We do it so that their future does not have the pain that was in our past and that's why we're really proud that from all the proceeds we get from the events we run this weekend, we can donate them. [00:49:00] And this year we are really, really proud to be able to donate really close to home and donate to the school and another organisation that does a lot for our community. That we're really proud to donate to is the youth project and KS and I just have to thank everybody that comes together to put this weekend together. Everybody puts [00:49:30] in their time and their energy so that we can all have this colour and this beauty and this happiness, so thank you to everybody who put in time for this weekend, so I won't hold you up from celebrating. There's going to be the kids disco in the hall. There's lots of yummy stuff to eat. And it's a beautiful day. What more could we ask for? So thank you again to everybody for coming out. Thank you for celebrating. Thank you for doing this for our tamariki [00:50:00] and for our community. Thank you very much. I'm John Trimmer, and we are in my hometown. Uh, I've lived here for well over 40 years. My darling sister has just come back. I just come back from living in Australia for far too long, and she's now a resident and the gay parade parades are wonderful and they're getting better and better. But I adore [00:50:30] these drumming. Have you recorded some of those? I've recorded some of it. Yes, Yes. Wonderful. That is wonderful. So is this the first pride parade you've seen in? No, Um, I try to get to all of them, but there are times when, um, I've got other things to do. Yes, so I can't like tonight. We're going out to dinner with the ex deputy mayor of um and his good lady. And, uh so [00:51:00] that's it. John, could you describe what the parade looked like? Um, it seemed to take a long time. Um, but it didn't really. Along the the parade, the foreshore There are lots of people in wonderful bright costumes, colourful clothes, waving banners. And I think every now and now and then chanting out whatever their little groups were. And as you can see up there on the banks of the church, there are dogs dressed up in bright colours [00:51:30] and colours and everything else. And, um, I mean, what can you say? It's It's a wonderful thing. I wish this had had have happened in my childhood. In actual fact, um, I was just telling my sister here wouldn't the oldies in our family who are no longer with us, they would not quite believe it. And I when I hear these drums, I start [00:52:00] to get weepy. I do. Because the drumming is wonderful. Can you describe the atmosphere for me today? Yes. Um, great jubilation. And, um, fun of the fair. Everybody is here. Everybody of all persuasions and ethnicities and whatever you want to call it. Absolutely. And they are wearing anything and everything they like. What what's what's the feeling you get from these pride breeds. It [00:52:30] seals the wonderful, um, thing of our village. It is the most. My God. Look at the warrior queen there. Um uh, it it does. It's It's our village. It's open. Everybody loves everybody. So much love around. It's extraordinary. I've never experienced anything like this. That's why my sister moved back from Melbourne. I couldn't stand it there any longer. And I said, Yahoo, about time. [00:53:00] OK, nice to meet you. Could you just describe who's walking past us at the moment? Um, I think that somebody from another planet, because they've got a big pink, fluffy ear and a turquoise furry body with a sort of a tartan shirt on and followed by a couple of unit fairies. It looks like it's very impressive, isn't it? Yeah. Very impressive and very hot. It's It's quite sunny today, [00:53:30] and I think, Yeah, I could be quite steamy inside that costume. So can you describe, uh, what what you are wearing? Sure. I might. I might, um I say I'm wearing I'm wearing, like, a an eighties jumpsuit. Um, that someone did say to me before, um, that, you know, it's very Kath and Kim, which I took obviously as a compliment. Um, some gold Chinese shoes, uh, little white, um, blonde wig. And, um, I've got a tutu around my head. Um, that would have fitted our daughter. [00:54:00] Probably when she was about six. Maybe, um, obviously didn't go around my way. So all my head's fine and and some really nice, fruity earrings that I was really pleased to find this week. Uh, I also wearing a tutu on my head. Maybe that's where they should go. And, um, with a flowery shirt and apparently leg warmers on my arms, Um, and a skirt and tights and some blue sweat shoes. Yeah. We've just come to the end [00:54:30] of the shortest pride parade. Um, how was that to be part of? Oh, just gorgeous. Yeah, we love we love our community. And I think this parade does kind of probably gets more and more popular every year, and, um, everyone's a part of it. It doesn't matter kind of what walk of life you've got. And, um, and the kids at the school really gets well behind it. So and I think That's really, um, exciting because it gives, um It just gives hope for the future. If if if we can start the right on the right way with [00:55:00] our kids, then you know there won't be any more bigotry. Hopefully one day? Yeah, A bit like a kind of I don't know, Sherbert bomb. Little nugget of things just crossing the road there. Everybody just going off. It's great. I thought it was awesome. What's the kind of feeling that you got being a participant? Oh, just just really happy. And, um, and part of something that, um, you know, that means means something. Just yeah. Full of love. Yeah. It's good to see people, like, you know, shouting and singing about [00:55:30] who they are. It doesn't matter who they are, just, you know, and being proud of it. Well, I guess that's part of it, Isn't it? The flag and all of that? Yeah. Yeah. What do you think? The difference is between these kind of localised pride events and the larger ones in cities. Well, everyone knows each other here. Um, So, um, you know, there isn't, You know, if it's and it's an incredibly sort of supportive environment? Um, I don't know. It's probably got that. Yeah. It's got that extra sort of interesting thing when you've got really close relationships with people. [00:56:00] Um, yeah. Yeah. Well, I've never been to I don't know if I've been to I've been to somewhere like Nottingham Carnival. Notting Hill Carnival. Sorry. Um, I guess that is slightly different because you do have a, like side liners and then the paraders, whereas there doesn't seem to be any side liners here. It's just everybody joining in. So yeah, that's cool. My name's Joe and I live on the parade, so it goes right past my house. So I thought, um, I would go down and join in. Is this the first time you've you've joined [00:56:30] in? Uh, yes. I've only lived in since February. And can you describe what was the feeling like, Um, it was it was really uplifting and really nice and friendly. And, um, yeah, it felt like a community because I don't know anybody here, but it felt like people coming together. It was really nice. It has. It has a very inclusive field, doesn't it? Yes, absolutely. Yeah, very inclusive. And what a gorgeous day eventually. I [00:57:00] mean, I think the wind is just part of it, isn't it? Well, I come from the tropics, so obviously I'm taking my thermals off a special occasion. Can you describe what it was like to be in the parade? I was just friendly, and everybody was chatty and nice, and, um, it was like it was bright. And, um, yeah, it was, um It was energetic. Yeah. What's the what is the importance of having a pride parade or a pride event? Um, I think a lot of [00:57:30] the time people focus on, um, pride in Sydney or in big cities where everybody goes. And it goes on, you know, in right into the night. Um, but I think it's important that, um, small and local, Um, And I think, um, I think the has quite a high gay and lesbian, um, residents from what I can tell. So, um, so why not? Why not here? Hi, my name [00:58:00] is Pete, and I came to this parade because I think it's very interesting to have this little town in the suburbs, and they have the shortest parade in the world, and it's just crossing the street. Actually and it's really nice to see all these different people, like very young kids, but also all the people. And it's like a nice family event. And yeah, is this the first pride parade you've been in? No, I've been to a couple of them, Uh, but I've never been to such a small one. I've once been to Sweden and there was a similar atmosphere. It was during day [00:58:30] time. It was like this whole family event going on really nice atmosphere, because there's other cities where it's more like a party. But this is my Yeah, So can you describe what the feeling was like to to walk on the parade? Yeah, it was nice when I mean, when you walk through the this neighbourhood, it's very quiet. But then some older people came on the balconies and they were waving at you and yeah, it It's just, uh it was very friendly and welcoming. And yeah, [00:59:00] it was a positive, very energetic. At the end, there was these drummers playing and everybody was into that. Now we got this kids disco when you cross the rainbow crossing. Did you feel confused because there there has been kind of some news items about, um, people being confused as they come to that crossing. How? How was it for you? Yes, so many colours. I was so confused. I hardly made it the five steps. No, of course it's It's no trouble or anything at all. We get a crossing in Wellington as well. We dream of colours [00:59:30] in other cities as well. So I don't see any problem or any trouble that might cause it didn't make you start questioning your your sexuality and identity. Not really. No, I'm pretty sure I know about my identity. Why do you think? Uh, a localised pride event is, uh, important. Compared to, say, like these bigger ones in cities, just the setting is a different setting because you always have these bubbles in the cities where, like, let's say, a lot of of the Remo communities concentrated, they have their own neighbourhoods. [01:00:00] And I think when you go to more rural areas, um, I think it's, uh they're not as used to to seeing queer people, and it's not that present. And so it's nice that you see that they also support it in a way by like, looking at you and waving and and maybe even coming here. And, uh, it's also good, I guess, to raise awareness. And you mentioned, if you're a young kid growing up in a more rural area, um, it's it's nice to see Maybe if you're gay and you're six years old [01:00:30] and you see stuff going on like that, you feel, Ah, I'm not the only one. So that's, um that's a good thing. Yeah. Hi, my name's kin. I'm from Tasmania and I came here today because my girlfriend took me on a trip and it just so happened to be a gay pride parade, which I was incredibly excited about because it meant I could turn a look. Um, it's pretty much the same. Well, I Well, I live in Wellington, and so I basically decided, um, long weekend found out there was gay pride, and my friends are down here. So I thought, Let's go and see how the pride's going. [01:01:00] So I know we have pride parades in Wellington, but what about Tasmania? Well, actually, there is one in Hobart, but it's not. It's not very out and about there. I think there needs to be more done really. So can you describe what today's pride parade was like? I thought it was fabulous. Just any bunch of people getting together to celebrate. Freedom is fabulous anywhere in the world. Yeah, No, I totally agree. I mean, especially in this day and age when you know you think about America and [01:01:30] some of the legislation that's been going on, you know, anti trans legislation, stuff that's being Mike Pence is not particularly a great fan of the trans community. So there's all those sort of things, um, where we become more extreme and so gay rights where we get them. But then also, they're taken away. There's gay marriage, and then it's taken away. So these parades are still really important. Yeah, more so. I think now the end of the parade was walking over the Rainbow Crossing, and there has been some controversy this year about that, saying it was confusing for people. [01:02:00] How did you find walking on it? Well, the way that I understood it was that it's the shortest parade in the world because it is from one side of the road to the other, which I think is a fabulous idea because it allows the parade to grow, but it will still always have the badge of the shortest unless somebody walks on half of the road somewhere else. I wasn't at that part, so I can't contribute. Sorry, I just arrived 20 minutes ago, [01:02:30] but But you have walked over the crossing. That didn't confuse you? No, not at all. Not at all, Actually. I got here before everybody else and I've got all my fabulous photos in the middle of the crossing on my own. That sounds cool. Any confusion for you? Confusion. No, no. Absolutely No. Seemed pretty clear and straightforward. Yeah, so it was cool. Yeah, And it's a lovely day and everyone's dressed and looking wonderful and, you know, flamboyant, [01:03:00] which is really cool. So why are pride events, pride, parades important? Well, pride? Parades are important because it's important for people to celebrate, and it's it's for everybody. I mean, it's not about you know so much about sexuality. It's about the union of of Everybody. That's why I think they're important. Well, I think like, uh, pride like it will always be relevant, and it will always be important, like as long as there's, uh, transphobia or homophobia [01:03:30] or, you know, prejudice or stereotypes, then the pride will, you know, does marches still need to be, um, continued. You know, it always needs to be relevant, you know? So it's a yeah, I think it will always be important. People have fought for rights. I mean, where I grew up in Dublin, and so and Dublin. For years, I assumed we were I was sort of ignorant. In my early twenties, I just thought, Oh, you know, I'm able to go to gay clubs. There's so many gay clubs and just assumed [01:04:00] that things were OK, but there wasn't How do I say it like, I mean, I'd never questioned the idea of gay marriage. I thought that was stupid. Now, obviously, I think it's really important, and they should have it. But so even ideologically like back in my twenties, there were things that I never questioned, which now I see is like, you know, a bad idea. Yeah, we should have had gay marriage and there should be these things. So, you know, and I thought it was like, sort of freedom of movement. But, you know, I don't know. I mean, there's always room for improvement. Having said [01:04:30] that, like, Dublin is a very gay friendly city and has some of the best gay bars in the world. I think by prejudice did they do they have crossings? Um, I don't know about gay crossings to have the gay pride and all that. And, um, one of the times I really missed not being in Dublin was when gay marriage got brought in by referendum. So it was a vote. And so there'd been a big, long chase to that. And when that happened, and when it was announced, the whole city was packed, Yeah, and I was just like it was raining in Wellington and I was [01:05:00] like, you know, just going to the cinema. Yeah. And then I get these drunken phone calls from my friends, and it's like, you know, and they're all on these. You're looking at the videos, and it's all sunny over there, and they're all crying with joy because of the pray the marriage thing being announced. And I was just, like, so green. I was just so pissed off I was like, Yeah, whatever. You sound really drunk. You sound really drunk, you know, It was just like I mean to just call out because I'm jealous, but yeah, no III. I definitely missed. I would have loved them to be over there. [01:05:30] I was actually here when the gay marriage got voted here. As, um, a few of us were invited to see it in parliament, so that was a bit more low key, But it was still obviously a historical event, so that was great. And of course, after the parade, you get the parties and I'm from Sydney, and I went to I started going to the Mardi Gras in the early nineties and I would have to say Like after the the walk, best parties in the world That's like, You can't [01:06:00] beat them. You really can't beat them. Hi, I'm Tony, and I'm here today. I've been This is my third year coming, and I enjoy coming, So yeah. Can you compare this year to the previous years? Has it grown? Has it developed? Yeah, I think it has a little bit more people. Um, yeah. And just seems to be more diverse with the people as well. I think it seems very inclusive. Yeah. Yeah, a lot more inclusive. maybe this year. I just think it's getting bigger and people are coming [01:06:30] for the whole event and celebrating diversity, I suppose, over the weekend. What? What is your favourite event? The parade today. And why is that Just that's the only one I'm doing this year. Yeah. Can you describe what it's like to to, uh, be in a parade like that? Um uh, it's a sense of belonging and being with people who love each other for who they are. And, yeah, no judgement, like it's a safe place to be. Can you describe for me what the parade was like [01:07:00] to do? Oh, it was just totally awesome. We had the wind of that back, which was a really, really nice feeling. It gave the flags a bit of, um and there's just a great sense of celebration. I think one of the things I loved was that you're actually parading past homes and you know, all these people coming out and finding ways they might be shy of being part of a parade, but it gives them a chance to kind of actually contribute in in these kind of ways. Uh, yeah, it's just a wonderful thing. There's just also just an incredible diversity of people involved [01:07:30] here, I think, and having a labour weekend at the same time as our school gala and plant sale. Also, there's just a kind of sense of everything's kind of yeah, fused together. I. I get a real sense of inclusiveness here. Absolutely. I think there is inclusiveness. I mean, I. I think every community is really diverse. And that maybe doesn't go for everyone like the The Painted zebra crossing here is not liked by some people in the community. So I think if anything, he is in danger sometimes of deciding that we love pride and we love this. And we love that [01:08:00] When, um you know, I think democracy is about everyone having a voice. So I think we've got an interesting political challenge as a village in terms of because I, I I'd love to think a future here is really great participatory democracy, and, um, yeah, that's about everybody. So it is inclusive. I think it's a very inclusive place, Uh, and that makes it an interesting place to to live there. There was some controversy this year with the, uh, rainbow crossing and and I. I thought there was a complaint. Wasn't there saying it was? It was confusing for for drivers. [01:08:30] Did you feel that? Well, I don't think it's confusing. I think the pest. The problem is the pedestrian crossing is already quite dangerous. Um, I. I don't see an issue with it myself personally, but, um, it's it's a difficult issue when it's essentially illegal and it's a, uh, it's a land transport issue and the council don't really have any say in it other than having to spend thousands of dollars to mop it up. So it's it's It's kind of a really interesting issue. Um, I'm glad it's there. And I, I think, in terms of, uh, queer activists and other [01:09:00] community activists in the community. You know, we should continue to paint it, but, uh, it's it's a complex issue. Yeah, What was it like? Can you describe for me what it was like to actually to to to walk across the crossing? Because that is the parade, isn't it? Ah, it's just really nice. There is something actually really cool about this kind of compressed stage. It's a catwalk, right? So it's the parade is catwalk as pedestrian. Rainbow is a good and I think that's really, really cool. Um, we got, uh, we We've got a banner [01:09:30] that we made for dot NZ our website this year. We got to parade with that for the first time this year. So that was actually for a few of us that have been involved locally in developing our identity. And this, uh, this this platform for the community, that was pretty special. Uh, well, we run a business in Paki called Paki Pops where we make, um, real fruit, handmade gourmet popsicles. And, um, we wanted to support the Pride Parade and the Pride Festival, and we made special rainbow Pops for the day. So we've been selling those. They're five different [01:10:00] colours, and we donate a dollar from every pop sold to project youth at youth support. Hm. So what what is project youth? Um, it's a social and support group for Rainbow. Are you defying young people? And it's run by capital youth support up in. Yeah, and I think a lot of some of the funds that are being raised this weekend are are going towards it. Not just us, but yeah. And how have the Popsicles been selling really well, We, um we sold out really quickly last year, so we've made double the amount and we've sold out again. So we have to [01:10:30] make more next year. What's the, uh, what's the most favourite colour? Oh, I like the I like the green. It's like a kiwi fruit and lime. It's really zingy and kind of tasty. So that's pretty nice. Yeah, I don't know. I yeah, I don't know. I like the orange one. It's kind of a new newish one for us. It's got carrot and ginger in it, so it's pretty exciting. So you must have so much fun. Like creating these these new new flavours here we do, Yeah, that's the part that really it's the funnest part of it. It's very time consuming doing a pop like this [01:11:00] because you have to layer it and freeze it and then put the next layer and freeze it and things like that. But it's really fun figuring out how to do that and how to make it look right. And so, yeah, it's good kind of getting creative on it. Yeah. Can you describe, um, the atmosphere today? Uh, I think it's amazing, like it is just the best of and, um, just so amazing. We can be this tiny little village and we can host something like this and just, um, everybody just in such a good mood and the sunshine having a great time all around, the kids having an incredible time in the disco [01:11:30] and their rainbow, you know, their rainbow hair and their rainbow face paint. And I just think it's just the best of the best of people, really. It's Yeah, it's lovely, lovely atmosphere. Why do you think these localised pride events are are so important? Um, I don't know. I guess it it enables people from every area to come out and and get involved with their community, I suppose. And I guess if you're not growing up in a big city, you might not see people around you that you can necessarily identify [01:12:00] with or, um, and so it's kind of good to have it in these kind of smaller towns as well, where it shows that we are. We might be a small town, but really diverse. I think that's a good thing for young people to be able to see. So So So we've just seen, uh, the the world's shortest pride parade. How did that? How was that for you? Quite emotional, actually. But it was fabulous. It was great to be part of it. Yeah, And to cross the the cross lane. That was a great when you say emotional. What? What emotions were you feeling? Pride. [01:12:30] Um, yeah, I know. Yeah. Happiness. Yeah. Good to be part of it. Good to be part of this generation. Actually, I was thinking maybe 30 years ago, it wouldn't have been like this. So it's great to see it. And a lot of young people here today, we noticed that was amazing. Two amazing lesbian women had their dogs dressed up really neat, and I carried one of their flakes for them. That was awesome. Just meet some friends going to catch up with them later on tonight at the dance. So that's really nice. Is this the first pride parade that you've been in? [01:13:00] No, no. I've been in a few in Wellington. Yeah, for yes, but not pride. We've done Wellington quite a few years and yeah, Dublin as well. And London? Yeah. Can you describe I mean, I'm thinking London, London is huge. Can you describe, um, the difference between say, like a London pride event and and what we've had today? I think the difference for me is you just get to know people here in a much smaller place. London. You're just part of a bigger thing. But here you can join in and be part and like, be one. [01:13:30] The community was amazing. And Children from the school that all got in and involved. And it was just awesome to see the local fire service. Uh, just great. Yeah. Why are these pride parades important, I think, to celebrate the diversity of of other cultures, but also who we are and what we are. And, yeah, that's one of the main reasons. And will I'm going to give the last word to you. Means chairs. Good health in Irish. [01:14:00] Yes. And I think, Well, that could be my theme for it. Chairs and good health.

IRN: 2098
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/transgender_day_of_remembrance_2019.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004578
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089872
TITLE: Transgender Day of Remembrance 2019
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Bronwyn White; Frances Porter; Rev Dr Susan Jones; The Glamaphones
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Bronwyn White; Frances Porter; Knox Church (Lower Hutt); Leonard Bernstein; Rev Dr Susan Jones; St Andrew's on the Terrace; The Glamaphones; Transgender Day of Remembrance; Transgender flag; trans; trans awareness; transgender; transphobia; transphobic violence
DATE: 17 November 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: St Andrew's on the Terrace, 30 The Terrace, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the service at St Andrews on the Terrace, Wellington to mark the 20th Transgender Day of Remembrance. The service occurred on Sunday 17 November, with the Day of Remembrance on the 20th November. A special thank you to St Andrew's for allowing this event to be recorded and shared. This recording has been slightly edited, with some parts of the service not included.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Good morning and welcome to Saint Andrews on the terrace this morning, this transgender day of remembrance Morning. Our opening words are inside the order of service. All human beings are valuable simply because they are human. All human beings are worth loving simply because they are human. Whether we understand an other or not, [00:00:30] whether they are different, they are due respect and the expectation of life. All human beings are due unconditional love. All humankind, all orientations, all genders. All people are welcome here. So may it always be [00:01:00] [00:01:30] welcome everyone and welcome be phones. I see that you're tastefully arrived in a raid [00:02:00] and transgender colours. Very cool. Very cool. It's lovely to have you here, I. I kind of rushed by you a bit busily, uh, as you all came into church. But it's lovely to have you here. Thank you very much for coming and friends of yours, which I can see dotted through the congregation and regular ST Andrews people. Welcome. It's, um, good to have us together and to celebrate where we can celebrate. Let us pray. [00:02:30] We come with joy that we can celebrate an open and free space here in this place. We come with joy that everyone here is welcome, loved and accepted that everyone here is free to come free to be who they are. We give thanks for the privilege that we have living [00:03:00] in a country where we are making progress towards greater acceptance of all. But we remember the shadow side of today. And we think of those families and people for whom life is fearful and difficult, dangerous and risky just because of who they are. And so we remember them as we gather today keeping them close in our hearts. [00:03:30] So may it be And to join with that prayer we say together the Lord's Prayer or the Jesus prayer, which is on the laminated card in your order of service eternal spirit, life giver, pain bearer, love maker, source of all that is and that shall be father and mother of us all loving God [00:04:00] in whom is heaven The hallowing of your name echo through the universe. The way of your justice be followed by the peoples of the world. Your Heaney will be done by all creative beings. Your commonwealth of peace and freedom. Sustain our hope and come on Earth with the bread we need for today. Feed us in the hurts we absorb from one another. Forgive [00:04:30] us in times of temptation and test strengthen us from trials too great to endure. Spare us from the grip of all that is evil. Free us for your reign and the glory of the power that is love now and forever. Amen. Jim Cotter, who paraphrased the prayer for us is, uh, was a gay Anglican [00:05:00] priest who used to live on the border of Wales. Um, he died just a couple of years ago, but his prayers and paraphrases of psalms are much loved, Right. We have a rainbow candle here. It needs lighting. Who could do that? Right? One of these days, you're gonna knock the lighting candle flying. You might need to just run [00:05:30] a little bit slower, right? What are we gonna do? We need four jobs. Just if you hand the paper to kezia Kezia lights the taper and Emily lights the candle and then I get to blow it out. That's right. We've got it sorted. Yeah, well done. Very theatrical. So we like [00:06:00] the rainbow candle to show that everyone's included. And that includes your Children, too. Come on, we'll sit down. I think Alan's got the story. No, I'll have I'll have. I'll have those. Thank you. He's stealing my wax. Does Ellen here? Oh, OK. So do you want to sit down? Ale. What are all the candles? Well, that's a very good question. OK, [00:06:30] so today is a day called today, Is it? Well, not today. What's the date? Today is the 17th, but on the 20th of November, there is a day that's celebrated. Well, it's not celebrated. That's the wrong word. I think the word is commemorated, which is a bit of a sad word. It's called Transgender Day of Remembrance, and it's remembering a lot of people all over the world [00:07:00] who have a lot of trouble in their life because people don't like them and they don't like them because they're people who felt really not right in their bodies. And they were. They perhaps look to other people like they're a girl or they look to other people like they're a boy, but that doesn't really fit with them. And so after a lot of a lot of thought and a lot of talking to a lot of people. They decide that they need to change and it takes a lot of effort, a lot of effort, [00:07:30] and you don't do it just like that. You don't just decide I'll be a boy tomorrow. It's not that simple. And so a lot of people find that hard to take a lot of other people. And so in other places in the world, fortunately, not usually New Zealand people are really mean to them, and they beat them up, and sometimes they even kill them. That's awful, isn't it? The worst thing ever could have happened and guess what those people are killing those people need [00:08:00] no Well, once you start that, you just get on and on and on all the time. Well, that some people say that some people say you've got to fight fire with fire, but I don't think it always gets you into a good position. So it's a bit of a sad day today. I mean, one of the good things about today is that we've got the flags out because we were a rainbow church, and if you have a look at the morning tea table, you'll see special transgender um, table cloths and they've got pink [00:08:30] and blue and white. And if you have a look at the choir when it stands up, you'll see that they're wearing pink and blue and white and those are the transgender colours. OK, Yeah, that's right. So we've got now a real treat for you because the choir I especially arranged for the choir to sing while you were still here. So they're gonna sing two songs from West Side Story. They offered that, But I thought, Yeah, West Side Story. Leonard Bernstein, my hero when I was [00:09:00] a teenager and I was telling them that I heard him conduct a New York Philharmonic orchestra in Christchurch in New Zealand, and you know what he did? He sat in the middle at the grand piano with his back to the audience with the orchestra all around him, and he played the piano part of the Mozart Piano Concerto, and he conducted with one hand. When it was free, he conducted the orchestra and he played the piano at the same time. It was amazing, absolutely amazing. So [00:09:30] we're getting them to come up now and they're gonna sing two songs from West side story. Yes. [00:10:00] [00:10:30] [00:11:00] [00:11:30] [00:12:00] Yeah. [00:12:30] [00:13:00] [00:13:30] [00:14:00] So later we're going to light candles. Do you want to light a candle before you go? And when you do, you might like to think in your head Lovely thoughts for people who find that people are mean to them. OK, each take one. Right. So we might like to stand [00:14:30] And we are now going to send you to the Rainbow Room where you can hear stories, ask questions, have fun and we all say we bless you. Amen. And we pass the peace. The to the readings [00:15:00] the first one from the Hebrew Bible. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native born. Love them as yourself. For you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord Your God. The gospel reading is from Matthew [00:15:30] the greatest commandment. Hearing that Jesus had silenced the sauces, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law tested them with this question teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law. Jesus replied, Love the Lord your God, with all your heart and with all [00:16:00] your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment and The second is like it. Love your neighbour as yourself. All the law and the prophets hang on these Two Commandments. The contemporary reading violence towards the transgender community, [00:16:30] the 2014 lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, Queer and HIV affected Hate violence Report from the National Coalition of Anti Violence Projects shows that of the victims murdered, 80% were people of colour, 55% were transgender women and 50% were transgender women of colour [00:17:00] transgender women. Survivors of hate violence were also more likely to experience police violence, physical violence, discrimination, harassment, sexual violence, threats and intimidation compared to those who are not transgender women. Findings from the Injustice at Every Turn report conducted [00:17:30] by the National Centre for Transgender Equality and the National LGBT Q Task Force showed alarming rates of violence and harassment experienced by the more than 6000 Chan transgender respondents across a variety of contexts, including educational settings at work in interactions with police and with family members [00:18:00] at homeless shelters, in accessing public accommodations and in jails and in prisons. As murders of transgender people often go unreported and the identity of transgender murder victims is often misreported, there is no way to know accurate numbers [00:18:30] for the word in Scripture for the word among us for the word within us, we give thanks. It's not really a reading to give thanks for is it? Let us pray as we ponder love in the light of that last reading May our [00:19:00] hearts be open and our ears ready to hear what we need to hear. So may it be I mean, greetings to you and greetings to those who are listening on the Pride website. Uh, service is being recorded for that website this morning. A crucial underpinning philosophy in our western society is dualistic thinking [00:19:30] things, and people are neatly categorised into either or you are. For instance, this kind of thinking says, either good or bad. You might be black or white. You might be fat or thin, tall or short, clever or dumb. You may already be protesting in your mind. They're very crude categories, certainly, and they're designed to stop us thinking, just apply the appropriate dualism, [00:20:00] and we know exactly where everyone is and what's more how they should be treated. These dualistic pairings not only sort people into different camps, a value judgement is placed on the different sides of the dualism. For instance, here's a short list that are usually put together. Good goes with bad law abiding with law breaking public and private are rated as good and bad. Logic is [00:20:30] obviously better than a motion rational, irrational white black, and you'll notice that the list on the left are all under the word good. And so they've been given a value that they're better than the things on the list on the right. Sometimes an exceptional circumstance will turn this around. For example, the All Blacks have made black a colour of honour. But looking at this list, you can see why it has been traditionally hard for people of colour to make it [00:21:00] to elected office or high positions in corporations. Because if you're on the right hand list, for some reason, it's difficult to be on the left hand list for another. It also explains why, when an all black sheds a tear, it especially mentioned that they are being emotional because it's a little bit difficult to deal with an emotional all black because emotion is a wrong thing, [00:21:30] according to Dualist of thinking, it's still a difficult concept to attach to these men, who in every other respect, tick all the boxes on the left because yes, on that good side is the word male. And on the bad side is the word female. And here is the crunch for transgender days of remembrance and for most of the homophobia that swirls around the gay community, even in the most enlightened of societies [00:22:00] Yeah, there they go, male on the good side and female on the right side and notice there's only male or female. No in betweens are offered. These dualisms I want to state this morning are not Christian ideas. Plato might be the first Westerner whose philosophy revolved around a dualistic view of the mind and the body. Aristotle took a different tack, [00:22:30] but he still used dualistic thinking later on in the Enlightenment period, the philosopher who said, I think therefore I am picked up dualism in his work. The Enlightenment has had a widely per per pervasive effect on our thinking in the Western world, and so the cars endorsement of this was pivotal to dualism becoming a bedrock of Western society. That is not to say that Christianity did not pick this [00:23:00] up and use it sometimes to devastating effect. As we well know, Thomas Aquinas and others who followed him in the mediaeval period made use of the dualistic concept so effectively that they have come in many places to be inextricably linked with Christian thought and practise. Yet Jesus is explicitly working against those dualisms in today's gospel reading, when he says that the greatest commandment has two inextricably [00:23:30] linked halves, the love of God and the love of self and neighbour, you'll recognise. However, some religious concepts in the list below added to the ones you've already seen sin. I'll put sin on the wrong side. Ya sin is good. Yes, we can all go home. [00:24:00] That's a real Freudian slip, isn't it? Just imagine virtue on the left and sit on the right. You'll never be able to from now on, heaven and hell and in a faithful and backslider backslider was a word used in the fundamentalist church I grew up in her. It caused the fear of hell to, um, tremble within you. It is important that we always consider our context, though we [00:24:30] may feel that we need to use philosophical tools to explain ourselves in the current climate, we need to be careful that the master's tools are not building a completely different house from the one we intended. So it has been with the use of Dualisms. Whenever we find in Scripture a dualistic approach, we may need to say to ourselves, What is this author trying to do here? Whom are they trying to convince? Are they speaking to the Greeks present in their contemporary audience? Is [00:25:00] this an accurate representation of the way Jesus taught and lived? Because Jesus was notorious for consorting with publicans and non kosher Jews, people who were usually on his contemporaries Bad list. His disciple group included women whom he obviously valued more than the average man of the time. He healed the Roman Centurion son as well as a Jewish girl. He advocated cooperating with the occupying Roman force. [00:25:30] At the time, he broke taboo after taboo, helping people on the sacred Sabbath, telling stories about the Samaritan helping one of their deadly enemies, the Jews. And he spoke to a Samaritan woman himself, alone by well, breaking several rules of engagement at the time, all at once. I often think that the various admonitions in the Bible and the rules devised by the church are safety nets for ordinary people who [00:26:00] don't have the wisdom and discernment and love or the courage that Jesus showed. Rules draw the lines for us. They tell us what to do. But as we increasingly find out once a line is drawn, people are left on the outside as well as included on the inside. Whenever you begin a group, you inevitably define yourself over and against another group. So has been the case with all religions, all political parties and probably to the rainbow [00:26:30] community. Each letter under the rainbow umbrella of LB LGBT, Q I and one of our congregation adds U for unknown has its parameters that are held dear by that group. I admire the rainbow community as it strives to hold all these diverse communities together. Sexual orientation, we have found, as we've educated ourselves here at Saint Andrews is very different from sexual identity, and the understandings [00:27:00] needed to talk and act intelligently about both are quite diverse. The rainbow umbrella is a marvellous thing, but even in ancient scripture, way back in Leviticus, written hundreds of years before Jesus arrived on the earth. The people are urged to welcome those different from them. The dualism represented here is the foreigner and the native born. The people of Israel who are being addressed here are reminded that they once [00:27:30] came from somewhere else from Egypt and the commander to love them as yourself. Some of us struggle to love ourselves. This is another unfortunate legacy of a corrupted gospel. We're each worthy of love simply because we are human beings. It doesn't matter if our nose turns up or down, whether we're of a different orientation from the majority, whether we're professional or a beneficiary or [00:28:00] a low wage earner or homeless, all of us are worthy of love and deserving of being treated with dignity and respect. This love should be truly unconditional, not delivered only if we have been good or if we go to church regularly or if we have worked hard at our job or got good grades. No, all of us are lovable and are loved [00:28:30] and deserve that love just because we breathe in and out about 12 to 20 times a minute. In fact, on a bad day, it's a good idea to sit quietly, just noticing your breath, going in and out and murmuring to yourself. Love and stress out as we live and breathe, we are loved. It embarrasses me that it's necessary to say this, but [00:29:00] it is so I probably don't say it often enough. The spiritual journey, essentially is a journey towards greater and greater awareness of love. Love within us, love for ourselves first, which is not selfish or greedy. If we do not pay respect and give dignity to ourselves, then it follows that we cannot truly love others. In both the Hebrew Bible and the Gospel, we are told that our love for our neighbour springs [00:29:30] out of our love for ourselves. If we think we're a little scummy, then we're gonna think that of other people, too. Unconditional love does away with the dualisms list, especially with the value distance between those two poles. Unconditional love loves the good and the bad, and all the flavours in between those two poles unconditional, loving people means that men and women [00:30:00] are the objects of our love, as well as those who find that the hard division between genders doesn't work for them anymore. Every letter of the rainbow continuum deserves respect and dignity, love and support, and even and straight. People need a little love now and again, irritating people need our love. So do annoying people and smelly people and people on the opposite end of the political spectrum from us. All of us, whether [00:30:30] we are inside the lines drawn by the church or outside them, need to be sceptical of some of the admonitions and warnings delivered by religious authorities and think more often like Jesus did and act more often like Jesus did out of love. He called people out for doing hurt for and hypocritical things out of love. He included the outcast and the maimed Out of love. He took the hit when it came, not backing down from his rule [00:31:00] breaking love, Let's live and work and act and love like he did unconditionally. I once told my mother that when I talked with Children in church, I wanted them to know that God loved them to bits. Hm, she said. We were in the car and after a few more miles down the road, she said. But you'd have to be careful. Let's not be careful. Let's [00:31:30] be loving. If we had love in the world like this description from the 13th chapter of the first letter to the church in Corinth, we would not need to have a transgender day of remembrance. Love is patient. Love is kind. It does not envy. It does not boast. It is not proud. It does not dishonour others. It is not self seeking. It is not easily angered. It keeps no [00:32:00] record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts always. Hopes always preserves. Love never fails the space of quiet. [00:32:30] So may it be I mean, gramophones are going to sing to us again. And, uh, where also going to offer you the opportunity to light a candle like the Children did before. So you can come up and light candles while they're singing, or you can sit and listen to them and then light candles. Um, it's [00:33:00] up to you, but we are now going to light candles for those people who haven't encountered unconditional love in their lives and who have found that life is mean, cruel, dangerous and risky. [00:33:30] [00:34:00] [00:34:30] [00:35:00] [00:35:30] [00:36:00] [00:36:30] [00:37:00] As the candles bring light into this room may light come into the lives of those who live in the darkness [00:37:30] of fear and hate. So may it be we pray in solidarity with the peoples of the world and for our communities. We reflect upon the many ways in which people envisage the greatest good, the myriad images and mythologies to give meaning to our existence, to affirm our authenticity for songs and stories [00:38:00] for novels and documentaries for posts and comic strips that offer insights into each other's experiences. We give thanks. We contemplate the many names and aspects of God that humans have evolved over millennia to explain the cycles of our lives and of the life around us, the spectrum of possibilities in humanity and nature. And in our abundant universe, [00:38:30] we hold in our hearts people already queuing outside the city mission to receive emergency Christmas food parcels. We think of defence force personnel and a crew from fire and emergency going to help battle bushfires in New South Wales of people left homeless, bereaved, injured of exhausted and injured firefighters of authorities [00:39:00] dealing with people who deliberately started some fires of communities destroyed and faith and others goodwill lost. We think, too, of bushfires that are putting a New Caledonia's biodiversity and fauna at risk and looking to transgender day of remembrance. On Wednesday, we remember the transgender people whose lives have been lost [00:39:30] to anti transgender violence this year and over many years we hold in our hearts all those struggling with misunderstanding, rejection and abuse for being the way they are, the way they were created for transitioning into the whole and beautiful Selves. They are meant to be in our circle of prayer. Today we think of the people of Switzerland and Liechtenstein [00:40:00] and the Council of Christian Churches in Switzerland. We remember the detainees of Manus and Nauru Islands yearning that their cases be resolved in New Zealand. Each week we remember members of Parliament, and today we name list MP S, David Carter and Liz Craig. And here in the Central Presbytery, we pray for the leaders and people of Knox Presbyterian Church in lower hut. [00:40:30] In the creation around us, we see signs of hope and flags of courage in the blooming pink of and in the brilliant white of bush, Cletus and mountain Robinwood, the clear blue Chatham Island. Forget me not and we rejoice in the rainbow, flourish of and and [00:41:00] lewd or and and the flourishing of rainbow sensitivity in our communities as we commit to creating a safer, nonviolent world for all of us. We give thanks for a creative spirit that cannot be contained by labels or limited by beliefs. And for the ways our lives and perceptions are constantly evolving, adapting, transitioning, [00:41:30] transforming and being reborn. And we bring together our affirmations and prayers with the prayer for Saint Andrews. It's on the laminated card in your, uh, order of service For those of you who are joining us as visitors today, we invite you to join in the prayer as an affirmation for your people and your place as well as for ours. And we say together, [00:42:00] renew your people God, and renew our life in this place. Give us a new spirit of unity with all who follow Christ and a new spirit of love towards all people. Bless the city in which we live that it may be a place where honest dealing, good government, the desire for beauty and the care for others flourish. Bless this church that what we know of your will may [00:42:30] become what we do and what we believe the strong impulse of our worship and workmen. [00:43:00] So go out into that world and love everybody to bits because God loves you to bits and know that as you [00:43:30] go, as I always say, every Sunday loves around you every moment of every day.

IRN: 2097
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/launch_of_trans_past_trans_present_making_trans_histories.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004579
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089873
TITLE: Launch of Trans Past, Trans Present: Making Trans Histories
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Kay'la Riarn; Rangimoana Taylor; Will Hansen
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Kay'la Riarn; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; Rangimoana Taylor; Trans Past, Trans Present: Making Trans Histories; Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); Wellington; Will Hansen; museums; takatāpui; trans; transgender; whakawahine
DATE: 17 November 2019
YEAR: 2019
LOCATION: Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa, 55 Cable Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: [00:00:30] My name is Nina. Hey, [00:01:00] no, mate. AM [00:01:30] to call my [00:02:00] my name. The more you care to care No might. Hi. Am I Hi. Am I in 1994. 19. Uh, sorry. 1984. [00:02:30] Many of the older people here marched to get a change to make us legal. Before that, we could be put in prison Just if somebody said that we were not straight. And people like these people here fought for that right that all must be accepted. [00:03:00] All must be accepted. And so they fought for their titles and I then acknowledge those. But I also acknowledge our young ones. There needs to be a change for you as well. We are from one tree of Aotearoa, [00:03:30] New Zealand. But we are many branches and every branch has a right to be here. When I said those who don't speak Maori saying, I'm thinking it's men, men, men, it's not The most important thing is the people, the people, it is the people and it is a fight. It is a fight. [00:04:00] It makes us stronger. And just when I get to my seventies, I'm thinking, Well, there we are. No more fights for me and hello, then I've got to come up again. And that's fantastic. Plenty of time to lie down when you're dead. Plenty of time to do that. You have every right to name you as you feel. As you know, it's right for you. Nobody can tell you what to call yourselves. Nobody. Nobody [00:04:30] has that right? Nobody. And so, as I hope you can respect us who fought for the right as being that we will honour you in what you think is right or what you know is right. I hope I have been supportive. What? [00:05:00] I hope that you appreciate the struggles that we went through just to be accepted as we are. And in return, I hope we will accept you to be as you are. We have no right to judge because we were judged very harshly. [00:05:30] I see some of my sisters over here. They know what I'm talking about. They know I was there when police used to raid the clubs. I was there when I was arrested. I was there when I was beaten up because I wouldn't sit down. I was there when we marched. We were there in tears [00:06:00] doing the Hakka and believe me when some of these do the haka, you better watch out because they'll come at you with everything they've got and that includes stiletto heels. Hi. [00:06:30] You have youth on your side and the struggle will be there. It is difficult because by not having it there we may be forming another form of racism of saying You're not like me and therefore you don't exist. And we had that as Maori. You must call yourself a New Zealander [00:07:00] and that's fine. But I am Maori. I am. I am from this land. I am not of Maori descent. I am Maori, but I am of European descent. I don't live in Europe anymore. OK, you are our hopes for the future. And if when you get older there are others who may need a change, [00:07:30] which is maybe not what you think. Please understand them how they feel. I'll tell you one thing. I love being a minority. I put the Treaty of Waitangi at every place I can I said, Oh, I think I have that Under the Treaty of Waitangi I can cross the road now I you can't hit me under the Treaty of Waitangi. I on this road. All right, So I have some humour with it. Support each [00:08:00] other. Support these people who have fought and new people here. Look out for these ones. Look out for these ones. People like Kayla. You have treasured me when I have gone through hard times. So have you. You have treasured me. You have helped me [00:08:30] come to terms with things. I can't thank you enough for that. It just is. It just is. But now we asked you to do another one. Please, For these young ones. Be with them. Be with them. Please don't judge us. No. Well, yeah, a little bit. A little bit. Like I said. Plenty of time to sort of relax. When you're dead, stay alive. Be alive [00:09:00] and too much lying down. Then people will think you're dead. But stand up and they will know you're alive. You see, we [00:09:30] are part of you and you are part of us. And thank God there's change all the time. It's great. OK, my way up. [00:10:00] Hey. So what we say is this Who will look after the Finns when we have gone? We asked that it be you Did it be you let it be you. [00:10:30] Thank you for that. Um, that was really beautiful. Thank you so much. It's really an honour to have you here and have you speak. Um, and I really don't know how to follow what you've just did. I feel like you've summed it all up. Um, thank you so much. Um, thank you so much, everyone for being here today, Uh, it means so much to me and everyone else on the team that's been putting this project together. Um, so yeah. So for those of you who don't know me, [00:11:00] uh, my name is will I was the trans person that te Papa contracted to do this project. Um, with the public programmes team. Uh, when I was six years old, I used to live in Wellington, and I used to be my parents every weekend to come to te Papa. Um and so it's really beyond amazing to be with working alongside now. It's really as a childhood dream come true. So, um yeah, and to work into on trans stuff, which, as we all know is the best stuff, um is is really really beyond, uh, didn't [00:11:30] think I'd get to do this. So there's really nothing more I care about than, uh, recording, preserving and, uh, sharing, uh, trans and queer history. So, um, I'm really thrilled to have this experience. Um, I want to do a whole bunch of Thank you, Uh, firstly, and most for, um, you know, everyone that's made this project possible. Uh, particularly the The folks at gender minorities, Um, who have held me accountable and encouraged me to do better. Um, this project really would have been impossible without the enthusiasm and [00:12:00] time. Um, and just dedication that G MA have, uh, put towards this project. Um, most especially, uh, so I really can't thank you. All of you from G MA enough for, um, your guidance and your energy. Um, I have to give a special shout out to Kayla. Kayla, I know you're sick of me saying thank you and sorry all the time. Um, but I really do mean it. And I have to say one more big. Thank you. Uh, you've been so helpful, and you've put up with all my phone calls and and, uh, and and all my modelling and all my [00:12:30] a a lack of clear, uh, clear speaking, which I'm exhibiting right now. Um, so and the way you've been able to pull everyone together and marshal the troops and just support me and encourage me, um has been really, really lovely. So thank you so much. It means so much to me that you're here and that you managed to get everyone here, Um, a huge thank you. Also to the other facilitators and volunteers who we coordinate with to bring this project to life, especially Rosie and Compass from inside out. Um, so Marco and Oscar from transform? Uh, you've all been so lovely [00:13:00] to work with and really great at handling my bed time arrangement. So, uh, thank you for that. Um, and to the team, it's a curators. Step and clear, Uh, for all your work on trans collections and getting me on board, Daniel, for all your enthusiasm and your dedication and doing all these beautiful photographs with just a a black scarf and and all of that, You did such a spectacular job, and they look so awesome. Thank you, Daniel. Um, Victoria, who unfortunately, couldn't be here today, but she has been so amazing and brought so much joy [00:13:30] to the project and is such a master of copyright. So we're really grateful to have her on the team. Um uh, Amber, who made the incredible zine, which you're all welcome to take on a copy of I hope you all liked our surprise. Um, and anyone who's not here who have participated in the project, if you tell them to get in touch with us, we'll send them, You know, a copy of it. Um, and a few stories didn't make it in time because we had a deadline to obviously print those off. Uh, but we'll put those in, and we can send out, uh, copies if anyone wants them, so just let us know. Um, [00:14:00] but most of all, I really, really want to thank Allie. Allie Holland, Um, from my public programmes teammate. It just really wouldn't have happened without Ellie. It was all Ellie's idea. Even though she says she gets shaking her head and saying in this museum of trans and stuff, But she was the one who actually decided to, uh, you know, create who she was the one who made this whole thing happen. Um, and all has started off as just a cool colleague. Um um but actually has become one of my really good friends and has been really helpful to me, even through a couple of breakdowns, which I had. So thank you, Ellie. [00:14:30] Um, you're someone who's so passionate about using the power of, um, museums to uplift communities and to record stories, and it's really inspiring. And it's really, um, made me think completely differently, actually, about what I want to continue doing. So Thank you, Ellie. Um, most importantly, though, an enormous thank you to all of you. Who, um, gave your who who participated in this project. Um, thank you for being so open hearted and so willing to share stories of your lives with us. Um, some [00:15:00] of your stories have been really personal and vulnerable, and it means a lot to me and to everyone else involved with this, um, that you've trusted us with preserving and sharing them. Um, and I can't tell you how much I really do believe that it will mean to people 10, 2030 50 100 years from now. Um, this is gonna be an Evergreen project we have, Right. So it'll be It'll be there, which is really cool. Um, so, yeah. I mean, if I'm from being really honest, I have found the last kind [00:15:30] of couple of months, uh, pretty tough in terms of. There's been a lot of tough stuff going on. I'm sure a lot of you share, uh, share how I've been feeling. I mean, we've been fighting all of this stuff for a long time, but in particular for me, even in the last few weeks. I mean, anti trans really happening at Parliament on Friday. It's a pretty, um, intense. Kind of, uh, it's been quite an intense time. Um, it feels kind of like it's almost every day that you see something in the news about, you know, speak up for women or all of those anti trans groups, uh, who are trying to define us out of existence. [00:16:00] Um, they don't want us, Uh, especially trans women in particular. Right. They target trans women most especially, and they don't want trans women in bathrooms. They don't want trans people in sports teams. They don't want trans people to be here. And, uh, I think this is really cool. It's been This is what's kind of uplifted me through. All of that is talking to all of you through this project because it's like, tough luck, trans phobes. We've always been here. We're always gonna be here. We're at least always gonna be online on a So so, uh, you know, you [00:16:30] It's, you know, our stories are now being platformed by a national museum, which is, I think, really, really cool, Um, and really important. And it means, you know, we just I think in general we should let no one deny us. Um, our our trans history, Uh, we have so much to be grateful to our elders for, especially the strong waka, uh, who have continued who have and who continue to lead the way for us. Um, and I'm so grateful that that some of you could join us today. I know you smile on me because [00:17:00] I keep saying thank you. Um, but I'm really proud that, uh, we can preserve a bit of that history which is happening today right now, which is a intergenerational history, of course. Um, so that future generations have something to look back on. Um, this collection of trans stories is really beautiful and really diverse. I think it makes a really clear statement that there are so many different ways of being and doing Trans. Um, and I think that that's just so lovely. And I think that it's also really funny that I was more surprised by someone bringing along [00:17:30] a laptop than I was over. So that's that's something you don't get often. Um, uh, we I think when we're when we've been doing this project, what we've really been trying to do is hold space. For all the diversity of experience here, um, the most important thing, as Rangi Moana said, is that that we can do for each other is to listen with an open heart and an open mind. Some of us, you know, might find certain words or out theres, uh, ideas outdated. Others of us might [00:18:00] find them too newfangled. And, uh, some of us might place importance on surgery. Others couldn't care less. Um, some of us might not feel all too similar to another person who uses the same words as ourselves to describe themselves. Um, and we might all feel we might some of us feel uneasy to be sitting under the same umbrella, uh, trans umbrella. But I ask you, if you do feel uneasy to, I encourage you to think about your uneasiness and ask yourself why you feel that way. Because when we think about it, none of us are [00:18:30] only Trans. We are all so many other things, and we all bring our uniqueness and all of our understandings and other parts of our lives back into our experience of being trans and understanding what trans means to each of us. So none of us is less right than the other. None of us is less important than the other. And I think it's really vital, as Ray Moana really eloquently said that, uh, we not be dismissive of those identities. We do not understand. Um and I think, um, for me personally, I think that the beauty of trans communities is that we have such diversity right? And we have [00:19:00] sometimes confusion, and I think that we can find a lot of joy in that confusion. Um, and I think that's that's something to be celebrated. Um, and I think as equally as we need to recognise and respect all of our different experiences of gender. We also need to recognise that there is something that has connected us all and brought us all into the room together. And that is the joy that we all take in being who we are against any others who would tell us that we should not be. That is that we have not We have come to We have been able to come [00:19:30] here together today because all of us, as Trans people, have, uh, been able to figure out something about ourselves that others have Maybe made it difficult. Maybe not, but for probably a lot of us have, um and that takes, I think, a lot of strength. So I think that we should embrace each other as we do ourselves, uh, with open hearts and open minds. Um, and that's really what trans pride means to me. Uh, so thank you all so much for being a part of this. I'm sorry. I rambled on quite a long. Um, I didn't practise [00:20:00] this first, which I should have. Um but now I want to open the floor to anyone else who wants to speak no pressure. Only if you want to uh, share the story of your object. We gotta keep it relatively short, cos uh, we've only got a limited amount of time. Um, so if anyone would like to take the first leap, Thank you. So thank you. This [00:20:30] happens to me all the time. Um, like, for example, we have a candlelight memorial once a year, and it's to remember all those of our friends who have passed away from HIV and AIDS. Um, that has a very special place in my heart because so many of my friends through the years and decades have actually passed on from HIV and a IS. So I'm there along to support any programme that they do. And yes, it does [00:21:00] affect us in a big way. It's a silent thing we don't talk about, but we've got to acknowledge it. Um, the reason I got up is because I was sitting there and I was listening to Oh, well, sorry, I've got my glasses on. I actually had a photo, which I showed Well, and, um, I chose that it was done many years ago down in Christchurch at a [00:21:30] and, um, I was the only transsexual there, and the rest of them, believe it or not, or actually, your age or younger. And that pre predates the whole transgender movement. Bring, you know, when transgender, the word term come out to the forefront. This precedes that. So that was like and it made me think, and I was like, Well, I was there with these people, and they kicked it off, so they sort of also had part of, [00:22:00] um, how easy it is these days. A little bit easier for you. Um, for all of you here. Um, from personally, I don't back down. I love a good debate. Um, I actually learned over the years to communicate, Understand? Listen, be tolerant of any other gender parent [00:22:30] show, uh, had stated before my myself and my friends have been through a Sorry, um, I just speak clearly. We've been through a shitload of stuff over the years, but not only for our rights, our rights to survive. We have to face that to me. When I was growing up, um, I got to the point. I've been through the whole spectrum, [00:23:00] and then I suddenly realised this is not me. Then I realised I'm actually transsexual and I've progressed, but to be who you are, you have got to realise first and foremost to keep it in your mind. Realise all the crap the bull bullying, the violence, negativity, their pronouns, discrimination, prejudice, medical, uh, discrimination. All of that. What people throw out at you, You got to take it to be who you are. I took it [00:23:30] and look at me now. I mean, I've got gorgeous friends. Um, What's the life? Yeah, but to me, I realise you've got to take it in what society? Throw it out if you're gay and they call you like the F word or queer. If you want to be who you are and stand up and progress, you take it on board and say, Well, yeah, that's part of the, um, part of my journey. You eventually let that stuff eventually [00:24:00] get gets old and goes away, and they've got no reason to say it anymore. Um, what I'm sort of trying to say is that I was quite exclusive. Yeah, I said it. Um, as far as when I was mentioned before, I didn't and wouldn't recognise any other gender apart from myself. However, when will come up I had decided to approach me etcetera, [00:24:30] and I pulled out the photo. Since then, in the last few weeks, sort of thing. I've been thinking. No, I can't do this just for myself. I gotta help young people. And that's well, apparently the path of my life at the moment. So at the end, the the photo I had done I had done, um, And at the end of it, um, I did say that I will speak for those who can't be heard, and I'll make sure our trans histories are never [00:25:00] forgotten. Thank you. Thank you so much. Kayla. Um, and you really? You already have been doing work to make sure our transistors have not been forgotten. So, you know, thank you.

IRN: 642
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_jayden.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004012
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089306
TITLE: Jayden - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Closet Space; Manawatū; Q12 (series); Whanganui; abuse; coming out; family; hormone replacement therapy (HRT); internet; lesbian; parents; relationships; school; social; social media; straight; support; surgery; testosterone (T); transgender; transition; transphobia; youth
DATE: 16 August 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Whanganui, Whanganui, Manawatū
CONTEXT: In this podcast Jayden talks about being young, straight and transgender in 2012. Jayden's partner Amber was also interviewed for Q12.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? Good. Thank you. Um, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Um, I live in Do business studies. Course studies. What type of business? Just general business. Are you looking to open up your own business or some sort of, I don't know, really. Just something handy to have something good on the CV. So, um, what about your interest in hobbies? Playing music. [00:00:30] What type of music? So, like disturbed or Metallica or Black Sabbath? Down. Did you went to Smashing Pumpkins in Auckland? I went into the producer the other week. I can't remember who his name is, but yeah, sure came introduce you both. Yes. So how [00:01:00] old are you? 2020. What is your, um what is your original sex? Um, female. And what is your gender identity? Male. Male. What is your culture? Identity. It's necessary. Kiwi European, You see. And what is your sexuality? Straight. Straight. So, um, when did you realise you were transgender? [00:01:30] Um, basically, Well, you know, you don't realise it, but you do. You realise it to a degree. But when I was 16, I came out as a train to peers and basically after going online and researching a bit about that kind of stuff really opened my eyes that it was possible. So I decided to go down that road myself. Did you have to? Can you explain to me, [00:02:00] um, because I don't interview a lot of transgender people. What was the process of going through process, process of realisation or process of realisation, that well, how you grew up or anything like that. So first I came out as lesbian when I was 12. 13. So, you know, sexually, I was attracted to females and then still didn't quite feel right, didn't fit in to the community and the gender groups [00:02:30] and whatnot and started researching, as I said after that. And then I came across transgenders and did more research into that and then decided to start the steps to transitioning. So, living as a male for two years prior to to starting hormones. And now yeah, got tea, litres and all that kind of stuff and yeah, [00:03:00] what's your what stage are you up to now? Um, I'm on hormones at the moment and getting surgery in three weeks. So when you're on, hormones are there side effects to them. Uh, side effects, good hair growth. Even the good side of it, The good side of things. Um, it's not really negatives to, well, health wise. They say there are, but not really. Realistically, [00:03:30] they aren't. Yeah, pretty much. Do you have to be on, like, any special diet to be on these hormones or or anything at all? No. No diet, no special exercise regime? Nothing. No, Just go to the gym, go to the gym seven days a week. Who be active when you came out as transgender, did you? Are you out to a body that's a bit hard to drop me [00:04:00] out? Yeah. Yeah. Out to everyone that needs to know. Yeah, um came out to my peers first, then came out to my mother later down the line, and everyone just followed suit, and, Yeah, I tried a little stealth for most of the time. Has everybody been accepting? Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Yeah, so But it all does. What [00:04:30] was the main that you actually got on crying? No, but they they were all positive in the end. Oh, my God. Why didn't you tell me earlier or something like that? mum was crying and just did the what did I do wrong? And yeah, and everyone else was just Oh, we knew we were waiting for you to tell us when you came out as lesbian originally, [00:05:00] to your did you actually come out as lesbian? Yeah. I came out to a degree to some people. Did you come out to your mother? What was her reaction to that? That was also tears. Yeah, and then she kicked me out for a couple of weeks and long story short. Got back in there? Yeah. Do you actually live with your mother now or partner now? So you don't have. So you're [00:05:30] not going to get kicked out for that? No, thank goodness. That would be quite strange. Getting kicked out from your own home by your mother. Yeah, I was kind of prepared for it at that stage, though, because I had already done the what's going to happen. Research and was a possibility. And I thought it would be a possibility and happens and just went to my brother's house and stay with him for a few weeks. Yeah. [00:06:00] So what happens after hormones? Um, after hormones, surgeries, surgeries, Yeah. What's the first one? Top surgery. Which is chest reconstruction, then neck surgery, Probably a hysterectomy and then final bottom surgery. So, um, so I heard that you had to pay for it for yourself. Is [00:06:30] there actually any funding available anywhere? Um, funding for surgeries is available. Yeah, it's just DH B based. Yeah. Yeah. So how much does it generally cost? Depending on the areas. So if you go through funding, it's free completely. But if not, the average price in New Zealand would be about 15,000. Just depends who you go to and how far away they are. How about anywhere [00:07:00] else? Uh, down south is there would be kind of cheap. 10,000. And then overseas, there are about 5 6000 I looked into. Yeah, And then for other surgeries, you can go up to $100,000 mark. Oh, yeah. Is that in New Zealand or overseas? New Zealand can't do that. Surgery? Yeah, overseas, Thailand [00:07:30] or UK. I think I think Thailand was, like, 10,000 for bottom surgery as as far as I'm aware of. And then UK is quite expensive, but they may be like you lattes at the hospital or something. Yeah, well, for top surgery, so I hope so. Would you like caviar for that? Yeah. Fun times. So, um, you've had a good support system, haven't you? [00:08:00] Yeah, definitely. Here in this place here. Helped a hell of a lot. Is it a very accepting community? I probably not. No, no. It depends who you tell. It depends who you tell. Depends who knows? Yeah. Different sections. Shouting it out on the street. I'm transgendered. Oh, shit. Come and praise me. We're probably not like that, but you get the [00:08:30] point. Yeah, but no, no, I don't care who knows it. Yeah. So, um, how long have you been at closet space? Probably about 56 years or five? Six years. I say I've been around ages. How long has the group been running? Good question. I think it's been about 10, 11, 12 years now. So quite a while. Yeah. Must be surely Yeah. Long enough for people to know [00:09:00] that at least 10 years. Yeah. So, um, so that's a bit of a support system for you as well. Yeah. It's probably the main support group. Has the peer group seen you slow transition. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So, um, you're in a relationship Currently, obviously. So how about, um have you been in other relationships before? I say this [00:09:30] is my first real relationship as a trans man, I think. Hey. Hey. How long have you two been dating? How would you like to answer that? A year and a bit. That's over a year that please don't hurt me. It's not my [00:10:00] fault. There's not enough time, so I can't remember. Oh, shit in my head. Oh, Whoops. So, um so obviously, um, how has the transitioning affected the relationship? I'd say more in a positive [00:10:30] way. A little, Um, say both happier and myself, which lets me commit to my partner more. Yeah. Yeah. How about you? How you feel, personally? So, um, how do you meet other people in the community? The transgender community online? [00:11:00] New Zealand. Trans guys got a website on Facebook? Yeah. Is it quite active? Uh, yeah, Quite active. It's about 90 80 people in there, and that's across the country. Is there many trans people in? I know of one other trans guy. 2222. Yeah, just, um Just [00:11:30] how about like, um, in the area, aren't we? So, yeah. Um, not really that I'm aware of. I'm not so sure. I don't Don't explore. Really. Hey, you're transcended, too, So let's have a party. I got the barbecue. Oh. How was it for you? Oh, it's fine. Yeah. Yeah. So, [00:12:00] um, so you meet people through, um, close space as well. Yeah. Yeah. How about, um, anywhere else? No, not really. Only online and through space. So what is your definition of virginity when two people, um, intimate will be each other [00:12:30] the first time? Yes, I Yeah. To be honest, I say virginity is Yeah. Yeah. Uh, do you think there are actually any other forms of virginity? Hm. Not really. You don't think so? Well, you're talking normal. What? People class as virginity or any type of virginity. Well, that's what he says. Your anal virginity, your [00:13:00] vaginal virginity and so many sexual sexual. All right, So, um, have you experienced or sorry? You saw it in anyway and free. And you have you experienced [00:13:30] any abusive behaviour or abuse because of, um, being transgender? Uh, mostly variable, but define abuse. Abuse can be many things. It could be it could be physical, verbal, anything. So since been out as Trans, I mostly just verbal, but nothing recently. Nothing too bad. I'm generally still feeling. So have, um what [00:14:00] do they say? Uh, I was the little I can't remember what it was. I was the kid at my old work here. Did they start referring me to that old movie? It know, but but yeah, so, you know, just basic bullying is mostly but And the most famous, the most famous [00:14:30] question famous. Are you a boy or a girl? You get that one. But that's not really well, it's more like Miseducation. Yes. What? What? What do you say to that? Oh, boy, Depends who they are. Really, Really does depend who they are, right? Oh, thank you to the interview. Um, is there anything else you [00:15:00] want to say, right. Thanks. See you later.

IRN: 641
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_amber.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004011
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089305
TITLE: Amber - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Closet Space; Q12 (series); Whanganui; family; fear; friends; hormone replacement therapy (HRT); hysterectomy; mental health; music; pansexual; relationships; school; sex; stigma; straight; testosterone (T); transgender; transition; trust; youth
DATE: 16 August 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Whanganui, Whanganui, Manawatū
CONTEXT: In this podcast Amber talks about being young, straight and in a relationship with a transgender person. Amber's partner Jayden was also interviewed for Q12.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. What's your name? How are you today? I'm all right. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? I'm 21. I was born in. And at the moment this year, I'm doing a course which qualifies me to be a mental health support worker and breathe. Um God, I forgot what I was going to say. Oh, yeah? So what's your interest in hobbies? Interest in hobbies? Well, obviously mental health psychology. I like craft stuff. [00:00:30] I like music, but I don't play music. Yeah, I love me. Me, I like to three days Grace. It's like, softer, slightly softer. More than the disturbed. And some of it down. I'm just not yet yet. Her slow, slow, slow [00:01:00] getting there. Yeah. So you've lived in all your life. Have you travelled? Have you travelled out? I've seen some places, but not much in New Zealand? No, like I've never been to Auckland. For example. Everyone's stumped at that, Have you? Have you ever thought about coming to Auckland? I want to one day just to see it say I've been there slightly scared. [00:01:30] Yeah, that's big. I don't know what's gonna happen exactly. So, um, what is your sex, your original sex and your gender identity and your culture identity. Um, New Zealand. And what is your I'm straight. The first straight interview. Yeah, You got to help me. Yeah, but [00:02:00] you're dating someone that's transgender, indeed. Yeah. So what's it been like with you? Um, while he's transitioning. Can you rephrase that question? Sorry. You slowly see him change to a different person. So well, kind of different person. Let's rephrase that. I answer this question my way. When I first met Jay, he looked like this to me without the well, he looked. When I met Jay, he presented to me as a male. He wasn't on [00:02:30] the hormones at that stage, so dating him to me wasn't hard because I never met Jay prior to Jay. I don't know that other person. I've never met the other person. To me, Jay has always just been Jay the way he is today. And in the beginning of our relationship, it was hard because I I got faced with lots of questions myself. Are you lesbian? Are you lesbian? All the time from both family and friends. But over this time, I've managed to convince someone I'm still straight, and I accept it. [00:03:00] Has it been hard at all? So you're being fully accepted? Um, accepting for it. Of course. I'm non judgmental. I'm fully in support of Jay when I open minded fully. So you, um you also are very open to the queer community as well. Yes, I am. Yeah. So, um, so do you come to closet space with, um, Joe? I started coming last year when I met Jay and I've been coming since support everyone just be there. [00:03:30] You're like, Oh, hello. No, they will welcome me. You know, I'm straight now. Happy to have me there. Be a little cheerleader joking. Just waving your, um LGBT Pride flag. Something like that. Yeah. So, um, you being straight When did you realise? I suppose [00:04:00] I realised when I was 12 years old when I had my first boyfriend. I suppose I realised that then if not earlier, I don't know. Yeah. Have you always been attracted to boys? Yes. Yes, yes. Um, So when you first realised, how did you feel when you first realised you were straight? Didn't feel anything because that well, I'm gonna embarrass myself for listen [00:04:30] to you, but OK. When I first met my first boyfriend, I didn't know much about the sexual nature of things. Like, I'm gonna embarrass myself so much in this next sentence. When I first met my partner, I was that naive. I didn't know how guys saw girls and vice versa. Like, Oh, how do I say this to embarrass myself? I can't put it this way. As a straight woman, I never knew straight guys were interested in my body like my breast. For example, [00:05:00] when I first met my boyfriend, that's when I finally woke up and clicked. Hello. So yes, me. So you being straight for me, I didn't really realise anything because, like I say, I was naive back then, with the sexual orientation and everything, I didn't know what a lesbian was or gay. I was just me. I just was attracted to boys, and that's all I knew. It had no label for me until I was older. I I realised, Oh, these gays, these lesbians, blah, blah, blah. I'm obviously straight because I don't fit into those [00:05:30] categories. And when I met Jay, for example, I didn't know what transgender was either. I had one friend prior to him, but my other friend how to explain it, How to explain it, you know? Well, my other friend, he's about 40 something, and he's not gonna transition the way Jay is. He just lives every day. He just lives every day dressed in a male's clothing, you know, presenting himself that way and not going the full medical thing. So when I met Jay, it was really interesting for me [00:06:00] to, you know, meet someone trains and to hear this whole new thing and fully grasp the idea. And when I met Jay, like I say, he was not quite where he is now on team that I'm the one that got him there. We were sitting down on Victoria Avenue here outside Countdown one night, and Jay was sitting there telling me about, you know, he wants to transition. He wants to be a man. So I said to him, You know, do you want to wake up in 20 years when you're 40 be a chick still, or do you want to be the man you're supposed to be? And that's when he thought, you know, right, [00:06:30] So since then we went to see um, as a psychologist counsellor, we call a psychologist to get the tea letter to start JR hormones, which the tea letter is written to something called the Harry Benjamin of Cares About. It's about 100 and something pages. It's an American standard thing, and it's how they diagnose a transgender so they look at different things, like childhood. You know, where the where the feelings start, [00:07:00] how examples all these different things to determine if they're trans or not. And Jay was lucky that lady agreed that he's Trans, that he got his friends or his tea leader. And then, after you get a tea litter, you go to see what's called an endocrinologist, which are the people who put you on hormones. So after Jay got his tea litter, he had to wait a couple of months to go see the Endo went down there that day. They did a few standard tests, you know, weight, height, anything like that. [00:07:30] Make sure he's healthy enough to be put on testosterone to blood test. Yes, they did that prior to to make sure his liver and kidney and all that were OK to put a new hormone into his body. So that was all fine. And then that day, Jay went home a script, happy as he had to wait a couple of weeks, so to get a script filled. Because at the time, testosterone is not in the country. But no, it was. And then so after that, after you get your chosen hormone, like for Jay, obviously is testosterone because he's a male, [00:08:00] you know? Um so he gets, for example, for Jay. He gets an injection three weekly. Every third week, he gets an injection of testosterone, and I think it's like two point. Oh, is it 2. 7 mils? Yeah, 2. 5 miles. So he'll get that injection for the rest of his life. But it will change once he becomes older. He'll get it maybe, like once a month, once every two months. Um, basically, So you once you get on the testosterone, you chosen hormone. You go see the endo every so often, like every 2 to 3 [00:08:30] months just to get some more blood tests, make sure it's all working for you. See what changes of the year etcetera. And then, after you're on your hormones you go for the top surgery, which, like JC, does to get the breasts removed. How long does it take before you, um, from going from testosterone, staying from testosterone to doing the first surgery, You have to go get another letter before you can go for top surgery. You have to go back to either the psychologist. You went for a tea letter or a completely different [00:09:00] one and then get another letter saying, You know it's OK to go do this. You're mentally stable. I think I think you can do it prior to starting hormones, though, there's no actual time. You just have to make sure that you have all you know to back you up. But most people prefer you to be on hormones first. It's not. You don't have to. It's not definitely hormones. First, it's preferred for most surgeons. Most surgeons won't operate on you unless [00:09:30] you've got hormones first and then after the top surgery or somewhere between starting hormones and the surgeries to get the hysterectomy. Am I saying it right because I get them confused? Sorry. I always say, mastectomy or something different. I keep them confused. Um, so you go for the hysterectomy, which has to happen pretty soon after you start testosterone and otherwise you run the risk of ovarian cancer five years. So Jay's got five years to get that done. [00:10:00] Hysterectomy is to get the womb and the ovaries taken out, or the lady bits. Otherwise, yeah, you can get about ovarian cancer because the testosterone running for your system and you've got the female body parts. Obviously not that much. Yeah. You don't need them. Don't want them. Yeah. So the female parts are like, What the fuck is this happening? And then when you go for her hysterectomy, God record my voice completely. I mean, I'm glad this interview gets typed up horror. Um, [00:10:30] when you go through ectomy, you get the choice whether to preserve your eggs or not. So if you get your eggs preserved, then obviously you can get them implanted into your partner to carry your egg, your baby if you choose. But that's a decision every Trans person has to choose for themselves. As for me and Jay, Jay's still trying to decide what he wants to do as his partner. I'm trying to push him to save them, but at the end of the day, he's his own person. If he doesn't want to, then that's up to him. Hm. [00:11:00] Oh, God. Did I paid all too much. Sorry, I do. That's great. Um, I'm just trying to think What else would you want to hear about if you think, um, God, I've wanted to do this for so long. That's why I was so keen to. Seriously, I like, Ever since I met Jay, I've been all about Trans. It's all I've been about and I've been longing for the day that someone want to come talk to me and hear my stories. The straight guilt date, the Trans person. Not that, um not that Jay's make people get me famous, [00:11:30] you know? But I just wanted to share that with someone. How do you feel while he's going through the transition? Oh, OK, here's what the or honesty comes out at first. Like I said, I was unsure because of all this stigmatisation against me. Like I didn't like being called a lesbian. Even my own mother thought I was a lesbian. She thought that for ages I'm not. But anyway, my main concern was before Jay [00:12:00] starting testosterone. I was scared shitless. I was scared that Jay would start this hormone and he would completely change and he wouldn't love me anymore and he wouldn't know me. Obviously my fears are stupid. A hormone can't do that. But at the time, I was honestly scared I was gonna lose my jay. But no, we made it through that. And we're stronger and happier and yeah, I support turn out into a completely different person. I was terrified. [00:12:30] I was terrified he would take this hormone and it would change his mind or strength and met much that I would wake up one day next to a stranger this pop up this manly. But yeah, the changes in Jay have been slow. And if I'd be honest, I haven't noticed them because, like, as Jay's already said, we lived together and, like we came and said, Yes, once and Misty is like, Wow, your voice. And I'm thinking what? And Jay's like, huh? And then she's like, It's got so much [00:13:00] deeper. Yeah, and I had no idea myself neither Jay. But, you know, I was so scared of the changes yet when they start happening, I had no idea they were happening like his voice deepening. I can't even tell you. When it deepened, it just happened. Jay's got videos of him prior to see his voice. It's amazing to hear her say it's amazing. How high was it? Probably as high as mine right now. [00:13:30] No, I don't think it was that high. Like he obviously had a female voice because it didn't hit the hormone in the system. But it wasn't like a real It wasn't a real soft, ladylike voice. I don't know how to explain it or put it this way. I can't really remember what he sounded like. But all I can tell you is this. It was never a real soft, ladylike voice like, unless you knew Jay Prior or you looked at him long enough to click, you wouldn't know he [00:14:00] wasn't a girl. You know, you wouldn't have never known that. That's all I'm saying. Sorry if I'm but he was never that soft tone. So, um, so has the Has your relationship ever been affected because of him being transgender? In what way? Jay's gonna kill me for saying this, but our relationship [00:14:30] has been hard. I won't go into detail. It's so personal struggles. But yes, it hurts hard times. But one of the hardest things I found dating Jay as a transgender person is we've been together for like, just over a year now. But it took him about I know about 67 months to trust me enough for me to see him naked like completely light so naked. It took him about 67 months and trust me that way. And if I be honest, that was hard for me [00:15:00] because like I like, I always understood Jay and I always you know, I showed my respect and not force it upon him because, you know, I understand it's hard for him. It's not quite his, you know, it's got the body he wants. So, please, I want us to see it. But I found it hard for me as a part because, you know, I felt like my boyfriend was holding back this big part of him from me, like I didn't know him. But no, that that we talked about that and Jay understood where I was coming from. And then time went on a little bit further and he trusted me. And now now there's nothing Jay holds back from [00:15:30] me. You know, I know everything about him, and he knows everything about me and our relationships improved. I really don't think our relationship would be any stronger if it tried. You know, like the Jays transitioning. It's just made us grow together because, like I say, I've been there throughout the whole transition, and I've been to every appointment. I went to the I went to all the endos except for the last one, because I couldn't make it like course. But it's OK, you know. So I've been there for [00:16:00] six of the way, and it's just made us stronger. And it's made us grow together as people because being there for Out of all, it's been a learning curve for Jay going through it all. And for all the things you know, I've learned alongside him. So it's Yeah, it's been really good, helped us grow. Have you, um, met anybody else from the transgender community? Yes, I have one other friend who I spoke about, who I met prior to Jay. And we also have another [00:16:30] friend who I met through Jay, another trans friend and We also have a couple of other guys that we met from that trans website that came down to about I might have been about a month ago. They stayed at our place for a couple of nights, so yeah, it's good to meet them. And they got, they shared, they shared their stories with us and we shared our stories and, you know, they told us about them. They talk about us. And when we told them that I was straight, they were go because [00:17:00] yeah, because one of the one of the guys had a partner and his partner was lesbian. So she took a bit of time to adjust to, you know, the partner country, et cetera. So, yeah, they were all gobsmacked. I was straight. And if I be completely honest, which I like to think I can stay in this interview, I hate feeling this way because and I hate staying in front of Jay. But before I met Jay, I didn't understand how because, like my other, my other trans friend, [00:17:30] um, he often said that he wanted a straight be of a straight woman or a bisexual, and if I'd be honest, I didn't understand how a straight woman could want to go down that road. I feel awful saying that and I don't get me wrong. I really do. But now I get it because I suppose in saying that I've grown up and I've matured, You know, like I. I assume you don't talk about I say pen sexual. I agree with that like I call myself straight. [00:18:00] But if someone really wants to argue with me, I'd say I'm pens because to me, like to me, Jay is a man, But I love her not because of who he was, because he is now. He's just Jay. He could be like he could, you know, have purple is brought like the green spots all over him. You know, he's just Jay. I hope he doesn't have purple ears. That means he cut the circulation cuts off. All I'm saying is, you know what I'm saying is, I've grown up now and I've I've learned a lot and it doesn't matter who they are, what they look like. [00:18:30] So I feel bad that I used to think that way, But I'm talking about three or four years ago, so give me a break. I'm sorry. I'm prepping too much and breathe. Um, how do you meet other people in the trans community in the trans community? I don't really. Or in the trans community, I don't really meet people as [00:19:00] such. Like Jay said, He's on that Facebook page, but I'm not on it. Since I'm not Trans, I can't join it. Oh, no. I think you can join it for being the partner. No, no, it's the only quote. I'm not included, so basically, yeah, I just I meet people with Jay. Like when those people came to stay with us. Obviously, I met them. Yeah. So what is your definition of virginity? [00:19:30] All honesty. I don't know what to make of it. Because it's virginity, as you see for, like, a straight girl and, boy, you know, go figure. But as when it comes to the lesbian and gay community, if I be honest, I don't really have a comment when it comes to virginity, because obviously I'm not lesbian, so I've never been with a girl. So I I don't I don't know. Sorry. I just don't I don't know. I don't know what would be classed the game lesbian community is for myself as an individual. It's It's basically [00:20:00] to me as an individual. It's when two people get intimate in a way where, OK, I scratch that. I have no idea Scratch that. So when they get intimate in a sense of sexual sex, sexually intimate with the genitalia area, should we say it like that politely. Do you mind if I ask a personal question? Um, have you two ever been intimate with each other? [00:20:30] We have. Has it? Has it been hard to do so? I wouldn't like when you say hard. Do you mean hard in the emotional, mental or physically or what? Are you going towards all of above? You can individually if you want. OK, emotionally, it's, I don't know. Can I say on the interview? Is it gonna be emotionally? [00:21:00] It's the great be sticks with the head. OK, it's not a it was OK or not, but no, emotionally, emotionally, it's fantastic because it's probably I don't I don't think it's Jay as a person. I think it's just our relationship, but emotionally it's fantastic because for the first time, I feel like I'm with the guy who actually fall on loves Me back, [00:21:30] so I don't think it's emotionally special, because Jay the person, I think it just comes back to our relationship. But emotionally, yeah, we had It really is, Yeah, mentally, too. We go that far. Oh, but you know that embarrassing. He's great. [00:22:00] It. So I have to ask, um, have you experienced any abuse or abusive behaviour because of, um, you dating a transgender person? I haven't experienced? A. I've experienced a lot of questions. IE. Are you gay? Lesbian? Straight? How [00:22:30] do you have sex? I've been asked that one a lot. I guess it's more of a People aren't very educated on that certain subject. I can appreciate that. But I also think that these people need to mind your own business. Like people who ask me, these questions generally are my friends. If I be honest, they generally are our friends. But I won't answer them because to me it's mine and Jay's personal sex life. If we want them to know them, we'll sit there and tell them all about it. But [00:23:00] we don't you know, so don't go in front of them personally. I just think it's rude. I don't ask them how they have sex with their friends or their people. They don't even have sex with my boyfriend. OK, well, um thank you for the interview. Yeah, so good. Thank you.

IRN: 640
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_ethan.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004010
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089304
TITLE: Ethan - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; New Plymouth; Q12 (series); Taranaki; Taranaki LGBTQ; Waves Taranaki; We Are Who We Are; abuse; arts; bisexual; cars; counselling; family; friends; gay; homophobia; music; painting; public display of affection (PDA); regions; relationships; religion; runaway; school; school counselor; support; youth
DATE: 10 August 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: New Plymouth, New Plymouth, Taranaki
CONTEXT: In this podcast Ethan talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm very good. Thank you. How are you? Good. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Um, what do you want to know? Well, um, tell us about your personality. What do you do? Um, Anything, Um, personality wise. I'm really open minded. I'm a bit crazy. Sometimes. You'll get used to that. Um, [00:00:30] I like to paint. I like to write music, play instruments, fix cars. Yeah, that's pretty much all I do really got the whole tie thing going on. You got so formal. You were I didn't have any time to, um, change before I came in from school. So fair enough. The is not school regulation, but I don't give a shit. So, um, what I was gonna [00:01:00] say. So what do you like to do? Like interests? Hobbies, right? Music, fixed cars, fix a car person. Very much so. I've got three of mine classic cars. Yeah. Are you involved with the Taranaki community a lot? Um, yes, and no. Only certain parts of it, Like car clubs. [00:01:30] LGBT Q. Um, that's pretty much it, actually. So, um, what is your sex? As in gender? I'm a male What is your gender identity? I'm gay. Sex? Yes. Did Your identity is also male. It's also everything male. And, um, what culture [00:02:00] are you? Or ethnicity? Uh, New Zealand. European. So, um, you're a gay male. Uh, when did you realise? Um, well, I thought Oh, I know. I was by since 2009, and I've only just realise that I'm gay at these at the end of last year. [00:02:30] Yeah. Um, how did you feel when you felt that you were attracted to the same gender or sex? I was surprised, actually, because my parents brought me up strictly Christian. What sort of crap? But I don't really believe in all that sort of stuff, so I'm quite out of the norm. You're very like, strictly I don't care about spirituality [00:03:00] or religious kind of thing. I'm me blah, blah, blah. Kind of pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so you're quite shocked about this? I was like, Hm. That's new. Uh, no, I could go this way. This is different. I like it. Yeah. So you had to Did you feel like you had to keep it secret from people at at first? Yes, because um, was [00:03:30] this, um, all my friends there was I knew no gay people or white people. And because most schools are so small and there's everyone knows me so well, and they would be shocked to know if I was gay or like that. So I didn't want to tell him as sudden as I could have. Are you actually out at the moment or completely, completely raging homosexual? Just look at my tie. [00:04:00] You got the whole pink tie going? Yeah, The green beanie, the shirts, the pants. When did you come out? At the start of last year. Last year? Yeah. Yeah. Um who did you come out to first? Ah, First I came out to my best friend, and then I came out to a couple of my teachers who I like a lot like [00:04:30] the family. Pretty much the close teachers. And then did you come out to your family after that? Funny enough, my family was the last people I know of. Was it when you told your friends were, um are you with at school for your friends at the same same friends or stuff like that? Did they start telling everybody or they skipped it to themselves. Um, the ones I told [00:05:00] to keep to themselves, they did, which is good. But the others, they just didn't really mind. They didn't know who knew or whatever. So it actually spread like wildfire. End of the day, Not in a small school. That that's that's actually quite shocking. Really? Yeah, because you'll think that by the end of the day, everybody will know pretty much. I thought that, too. But it didn't happen. It didn't happen. No, I was very surprised. Did you think? Did you ever think in [00:05:30] a way that that's your way of trying to get everybody to know is to tell someone and get them to tell everybody else? I thought about that. But that's not That's not how I am. I have to tell everyone by myself. So, um, what is being Was it like being in the group that you're in right now? Really awesome. All these people, they're pretty much family now. [00:06:00] I've known them for a pretty short time, and we we're just a close knit group. Really? It's really good. So, um, are they quite involved with the Taranaki community? Yep. I would say so try to be at least try to Yeah. Yeah. So, um, what were the main reactions you got on when you were coming out? Um, from my teachers, they were surprised, [00:06:30] but they were good about it. And friends? Pretty much the same. And parents, I don't know because I didn't stick around that long. Are you not living with your parents now? I am now. But when I told them I ran away for a couple of weeks just to let things settle, settle there and let them come to terms with it. Did you stay with a friend? I stayed with lots of friends. Oh, just moving from house to house. Yeah, and all their parents did [00:07:00] their parents know or some of them did. But I'm not sure a couple of them did. I don't know. Well, I probably know now, but yeah, So it was like going from house to house. Was it a bit difficult for you doing that or No, it was really easy. Oh, this casually turned up pretty much. Yeah. Hi. Yeah, I'm his friend. Yeah, Yeah. Can I stay? I can. Awesome. Why am I doing [00:07:30] it? Long story. Very long. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, how do you feel about, um, after telling everybody and stuff? I feel really great. Actually, no more hiding who I am. I can be me. Finally. How do you feel? How did you feel at the time? Really? Really nervous. Very scared. Very scared. Yeah. Unpredictable environment kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. So, [00:08:00] um, did you have support that helped you with, um Well, you probably did have support for otherwise you wouldn't be going from house to house to staying with. Yeah, I had my friends and a couple of teachers And my counsellor. When did you start joining the LGBT Group? Pretty much since it first began. When was that? Um, February, I think. This year. Oh, so all all brand [00:08:30] new? Pretty much. Yeah. So, um, so as a group, so being a new group, it's still coming to terms. Still coming into the community in a way and coming out to the community, It like it like a little child. Yeah. Yeah. So you love it? Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah. So, um, have you been in a relationship before? I've been in a few in a few. I'm just I've just come out of fun. [00:09:00] So, being all out has that ever affected your relationship Being extremely out, uh, being, um, being extremely out Has that ever affected your relationship? No. Has, uh, have has your relationships your partners have Were they out as well? Um, most of them were. But one guy he wasn't. So was it slightly hard [00:09:30] to do? It was, in fact, that's why I ended it. Because I couldn't have him living alone. Have both of us living alone. Yeah. Without, um, was it P A public affection. And you like. Do you like doing public affection? Um, depends where I am. I mean, there's levels not extremely like walking down the street holding hands. That's fine [00:10:00] with me. But, like in a public restaurant or something like that, it's a bit awkward going to a movie theatre. A movie theatre is all right. Don't elaborate. Um, so how do you meet other people in the community? Um, mainly through the group. Yep. And I just walk out the door and to say hi to random people and hi, I'm gay. You are too. Well, yeah, it's always a bonus. [00:10:30] You hope so. What's the major, the big hang out place on Taranaki for, um, LGBT. People here at wave at downstairs wave down the base. Don't say that. Yeah, we have this place called the basement in Auckland. That that? Yeah, that's all you need to know. Don't make it sound [00:11:00] like that Here. No, it's nothing like that here. No, no. You like tea and coffee and studio in a room in a room? Yeah. So, um, I what is your definition in virginity? Never had sex. No, I'm not. I'm not asking you. Are you a virgin? But is that your definition? Yeah, pretty much. Do you think someone who's never had sex, [00:11:30] someone who's never had a relationship or anything Do? Do you think there are different types of virginity? Yeah, because that's just my view of it. There's plenty of other views of it, So yeah, that's just your opinion and specific type Life. Yeah. Yeah. So have you ever received abusive behaviour or abuse because of your sexuality or gender identity? I have, Yes. Would you like to elaborate? [00:12:00] Um, around schools. Some of the people, um, they don't like gays at all, so they're always putting me down calling me a fag and all that, but I just turn the other cheek and walk off. Have you, um, ever seen a school counsellor? Yes. Yeah, which, uh, have they been quite good with sexuality or talking to you and stuff? Yeah. They've been [00:12:30] really good with it. Um, I know that there's a lot of school counsellors that aren't actually very supportive. So and it's one. A good key issue that we need to touch on in, um, in New Zealand is to make sure that everybody is equal, especially with school counsellors. So, yeah. So he's being all good and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. Does he know about the group? Yes. Actually, he He's the one who told [00:13:00] me about it. He's the one that told you about it? Yeah, he told me about it. Then I went to a different counsellor. Then they said that there was a group starting up and so went second week. So people are starting to get to know about the group and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. So I see that everybody is so everybody is so close in the, um in your group and community in a way Yeah, it's very It's very. Is it because it's a small community in general, [00:13:30] or, um, I think that is a a main factor of it, but it's just because they're such good people. That is so close. Ok, well, uh, thank you very much for the interview. You're very welcome. Thank you.

IRN: 639
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_shaun.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004009
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089303
TITLE: Shaun - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 1990s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Bent Taranaki; New Plymouth; Q12 (series); Rainbow Youth; School's Out (Wellington); Taranaki LGBTQ; Terry Parkes; Waves Taranaki; We Are Who We Are; Wellington; cars; civil unions; coming out; education; family; friends; gay; gaynz. com; homophobia; homosexual law reform; marriage; marriage equality; media; nzdating. com; parents; public display of affection (PDA); relationships; school; social; sport; surfing; television
DATE: 10 August 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: New Plymouth, New Plymouth, Taranaki
CONTEXT: In this podcast Shaun talks about being gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I am good. How are you? I am good. What is your name? My name is Sean. That is good. Good to have a good name. Sean is a good name. Yes. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Um, I'm 29. A typical Taranaki boy into cars into the surf and to just having a bit of fun. What is a typical Taranaki boy? Um, apart from what I just said, um pretty laid back Cruz [00:00:30] kind of guy that goes with the flow. Have you lived in Taranaki all your life? Majority of my life. I did spend about up to seven years in Wellington. So what's the big difference? Um, what is the big difference between Taranaki and Wellington? I wouldn't say there's a great bit of difference other than the sheer size of of both cities. But I found after living in Auckland for about three months, that Wellington was just the largest size new place. [00:01:00] A bank of New Plymouth. Just a big new Plymouth where a lot of people know each other. I still think that Wellington is more like Devonport. Have you been to Devonport? I've been over to Devonport, but only really just to visit. I haven't seen the social side of deport. I don't know about social side, but the look of it, It looks like a big, massive Devonport with all the little hills and just the crazy, Not houses. And yeah, and the streets look the same. [00:01:30] Churches all narrow and twisted and wined. But it still looks pretty. Yeah. So, um, what is your gender identity? I would classify myself as a gay, my gender male. And that's your sex as well? Yes. And what do you express yourself as? As feminine? Me. [00:02:00] Say that again. What do you express yourself as feminine or masculine or anything else, I would say. Quite masculine, I guess. Definitely not feminine. Maybe after a bottle of wine or two, you just walk around and go. Hey, No, you don't do that. No living in Taranaki. What's it like being gay? Are you Are you out of the closet? Yes, I am out. Um, Been out [00:02:30] now for 13 years. 13 years, 13 years. So being out in Taranaki, What is it like? Right at the start. Um, I found it quite difficult. Um not so much with my friends. Like my closest friends. They stayed quite true to me, but it was more the other people, like I had a bit of stick from a couple of teachers, Um, which in turn I left school just because I couldn't handle it because there was no one to talk to. It felt like it was No, it was sort of my word against the teacher's word. [00:03:00] Um And I mean, I was heavily into skating then as well, when I was sort of pushed out of that kind of group and just felt a little bit isolated at the start. Whereas today, I mean how every time I drop my fiance off no problems with giving him a kiss goodbye and wish him a good day's work or dropping them off at the airport. And a little bit of PD to show my love to him won't stop me. So he doesn't have [00:03:30] a problem with PDA. No, he not so much me at the start, it was quite difficult, but we are getting used to it. So, um, you're a nineties kid, aren't you? Eighties, eighties eighties, growing in high school here nineties high school nineties left in 95. When did you realise that about your sexuality? I realised about my sexuality. Probably about [00:04:00] third form, or what's that? Year nine. Now, did you went to, like, an all boys school or unisex school? I went to sponsor college, which is coed school. Um, so I mean, it was a mixture of all, but, um, I just found that even though I was dating girls because that was just what you did, I secretly had a friend on the side that would fall around. Did you feel like you had to, like, keep a secret? I did feel I had to keep it a secret. And I kept [00:04:30] a secret for three years. From the day I knew, I kind of liked guys a bit more than girls and then to actually going Well, I made my choice that this is what I going to be. So So who did you come out of the closet to first? Um, I came out of the closet first to my one of my mates, Um, which then, by about lunch time, half the school knew so [00:05:00] typical high school wasn't quite the Maybe the best move I made, but it did make it a lot easier to kind of just snowballed and yeah, yeah. So how did he how? What? What was his reaction to it? Apart from telling everybody in the school, um, I mean, a lot of them, not just him, but a lot of my friends were like, Are you serious? You don't fit the stereotypical game, boy. Um, so they they took it quite well, [00:05:30] and they were a little shocked and did take him a little while. I was like, Well, what do I have to do to prove that I am, But, um, after the years go by, I mean, they just they didn't care at all, which is good. How about your parents? Parents? Wow. I had a quite a 50 50 of that. Um, the first was, of course, to tell my mum because my parents split up when I was about two. Mum gave him the ultimatum to choose either us, the family or the alcohol. And [00:06:00] unfortunately, he chose the alcohol. So he wasn't a great deal of our life. But, um, even though Mum always said, you know, whoever you are, you're still, my son, Um, whatever you do, I'll still love you no matter what. Um, which actually made it harder to tell her because it felt like I was going to slightly let her down, but, um, I couldn't tell her face to face. I wrote her a letter, and, um, she just turned around and she goes, um, she always knew which. It sounds like the typical thing that mothers [00:06:30] always say, But, I mean, she backed it up with saying, Well, every time you brought home your girlfriends, it was dead silent. But every time you had your friend over, there was always a lot of giggling and banging and crashing. Um, and then I thought it was about a couple of months after coming out to Mum. I thought, Well, it's best I tell my dad and I saw him in passing in the street and I said, Hey, Dad, I've got you know, someone tell you that I'm gay and he just looked me dead in the eyes and says, You're not My son walked off and and I hadn't seen him for 10 years [00:07:00] until a couple of years back when me and my fiance we turned up, we thought we better see what what his reaction is to see if he wants to be a part of us again. Um, he did make amends. He did say sorry, but 10 years during that difficult time of being like an early teenager to sort of coming into an adult life, it was the biggest part. I kind of needed my father and he wasn't there. So it it's hard to make an amends to something that he turned his back [00:07:30] on me to start with. Oh, I guess it's quite funny when your mum says, Oh, I've always known because you always think How did you know? Did the rainbow just came out of your uterus when I was when you were giving birth to me? Or I don't know what it is with parents or with your mom, but, um, I found, like with a lot of partners that I've had over the years, they are the closest to their mom. So they have that quite strong bond and, [00:08:00] um, in our family, where we've got a lot of mixed blood and a particular part of our mixed blood was, um, Sweden gipsies, which not the ones that you see on TV like they punch the shit out of people. We were the original travelling gipsies, and they've always had a saying that, um when you are carried, your mum has a feeling of who you're gonna [00:08:30] be and what you're gonna be and that while you're in the room, your life has already been placed in front of you and that's where the whole deja vu comes from. And so she knew from day dot and without even dressing up when you're a kid in your sister's clothes and total yeah, for me, my sister just forced it on to me, It's like, Oh, yeah, um, I guess growing up in the nineties when law reform was still [00:09:00] fresh and there was that thing in 1993 where, uh, we could actually not be discriminated because of our sexuality, everything is still fresh back then. Yeah, it was still fresh. I mean, it it it took a lot of time for it to actually come to here in. I mean, if it really wasn't for the media, I think we'd still be quite backwards as in regards to who we want to be, Um, if you don't sort of fit the life of being [00:09:30] a a an oil and gas or a farmer or an office person, you know, you're really not made for this place. But come all the media attention, even like Sean Street doing all the gay actors that they've done over the past has helped a hell of a lot in the way of how he sees the, um, GB LT life. So being in civil union [00:10:00] civil union was passed in 2004 and was this possibility that gay marriage will be passed? Maybe next year. What is it like being around that time? Where everything has there been, like, big arguments happening around this area or any big protests? Um, I don't think there's been any protests. Um, but in saying that also, I haven't really heard of too many civil unions [00:10:30] happened in this town. Um I mean, I don't know the stats of it, but, I mean, I've never been I've never attended a civil union, Um, me and my partner, we've still yet to have ours, but, um, I'm actually kind of waiting to have the full marriage rights. Um, I think it's a great movement and we should be treated equally. Not because of our our gender or our Orient sexual orientation. [00:11:00] Um, but I mean insane. I would like to see it more publicised here in Taranaki. I mean, I think we only have one civil union or or one openly gay civil union person here in Taranaki. And that's Terry Parks. Um, who when he's doing the best he can, trying to help [00:11:30] the sexual orientated people to get out there and get married and enjoy their marriage life, I guess the married life getting excited. Do you know, um, where gay people or the LGBT community like to hang out in Taranaki? Um, for a while there in my earlier part, um, we had a youth group called Bent, and it [00:12:00] was quite an interesting name. It was bent Taranaki. Um, And during I think the early two thousands we used to host the, uh, national camp and so over. Queen's birthday. Yeah. Over. No, no, not not the, um We had a a gay youth. Camp Howard here in Taranaki. Um, which we had a lot of people all over the nation come in and it was Howard over birthday because apparently [00:12:30] that's our weekend, our birthday. And, um, it was really good. And then, of course, I moved away from New Plymouth. Um, after the group slowly just disappeared, there was a lot more people just not attending, Um, due to the fact that we had quite a specific, um, cut off age and a lot of us hit that age. And then there was just nothing. Um and then it's only over sort of the last year or so that I found out that, um, there's [00:13:00] another youth group here in waves, which is open to all ages. However, the timing of meetings is quite hard for the people who are maybe slightly older, not quite 30 but are working full time. It's hard to sort of come to a group at four o'clock on a Friday. Have you ever thought about opening your own group for that age barrier type thing? It's funny you say that because, yes, I was looking at opening a sort [00:13:30] of like a bend the reunion or almost be the reunion. But a more of a, um, casual sort of meeting that you could just go in and just stay in contact. And, um, I mean, a lot of us now are probably pushing 30 which apparently is gay death. And, um, I would probably like to see a group come together to us are turning 30 maybe do, like, [00:14:00] good old home dinner parties or cliche. It's like like old high school reunions in the reunion. Maybe a gay camp somewhere along the lines. Have you actually, um, ever been in contact, like with Rambo? You for the QS a network? Um, through I mean, we got all our funding through the Rainbow Network, um, and Rainbow Youth up in Auckland. And I did attend a couple of meetings while I was a bit younger and travelling [00:14:30] to Auckland quite a lot. Um, so I felt I could be myself in Auckland and unlike here, being sort of locked away. And I did attend a couple of groups. I don't know if it was Rainbow Youth home, but we used to meet in camo on K Road. I'm not entirely sure I think, but how long ago was it? This is in the nineties. I don't know much about the nineties. You know about. It's probably it's possible. It's possible because I know [00:15:00] that because back then it wasn't just a bar. It was a cafe type thing. Now it's a, um Well, then then it turned more into a bar type scene, but still in a cafe. Now it's a nightclub. It's called DNA now, right? So it has changed a lot. Yeah, it was a cafe. Yeah, it was bought out three years ago or five years ago. And then two years ago, they turned it into DNA, which I helped build with the lighting and stuff like that. And now it's [00:15:30] a failed nightclub, but still going on? Well, that well, that's good. Yeah, because it was Yeah, I would say late nineties, early two thousands. And it was quite informal. You just turned up at around the time and you just sit and chat and have fun and just meet other people. Um, who may not have had the chance to meet other people, depending on their lifestyles. Um, in Wellington, I didn't really attend any at all. I did want to [00:16:00] sort of go through a couple of the youth groups down there, but I felt that at the time, my age was sort of on the older side to one youth group that I only knew about, which was schools out down in Wellington. Um, so So, um, how long have you been in your current relationship? Me and my partner have been in a relationship for three years. Which is that your first relationship [00:16:30] or definitely not my first relationship. But it is my longest relationship. Strongest as well and strongest. Yeah, we met in Wellington after chatting on NZ dating, So we got the true love story. That is a true love story. You know how rare that is. And, um, it's quite funny. We actually met physically in a hospital. It just gets even better. [00:17:00] Yeah, I was up there visiting my friend's daughter who was a a teenage pregnancy. And at the time, um CJ was staying at the hospital hostels because he had quite a bad coming out. Um, his parents were heavily religious and they said, um oh, he had to get his own linen. He had to get his own towels. He had to go to the the [00:17:30] laundry mat and wash all separately. It couldn't be washed with the family's clothes and he just couldn't handle it anymore. And he just left. No turning back. Um, so yeah, and he sort of We met. And then we had a month. He went back to South Africa for a month, and we sort of had the the chance to really think is is this a relationship that we want to build, or is it just a shag here now and see you later? [00:18:00] Um And then when he came back, of course, he moved in with me after knowing each other for a month. And now we're three years together. So a proper love relationship. It was a lucky love relationship. I was a bit hesitant at the start because he is seven years my junior. Um, so he's a nineties nineties kid. Um, but after I got to know him better over time, I kind of knew that he wasn't here for a short time. And [00:18:30] hence came our engagement. And now yeah, I'm married. That's good. So, um, changing the topic, uh, how do you meet other people? How do I meet other people in the community, in the community. Um, in the past, I when I was trying to meet people. It was all through. Sort of NZ dating, um, gay NZ dot com and a few [00:19:00] other websites like that. Um, in this town, I mean, no one's really flamboyant. Um, so it was hard to sort of just meet people randomly like there's no gay club. You can't just There was a cruising spot, but that was a bit seedy. And I am not sure I haven't done a drive by for a while, but we used to go for a drive by just to see who was around. Still [00:19:30] from when, you know, you were a teenager to now, nearly 30. Um, there would be still probably some that meet up in the local areas. Um, but nowadays, I think it's through friends of friends. Um, I don't have any direct friendships here in New Plymouth other than some of my exes. Um, but then we just keep that sort of as a a chat basis. Um, if we bump each other into the street, we'll say hi, but it's [00:20:00] nothing. Sort of. Let's go for coffee. So, uh, what is your definition in virginity definition in virginity like, Yeah, I would say Yeah. 00. See, I considered myself losing my virginity the first time I slept with a guy. And then I was lucky I got to lose it again when I first tried it with a girl and realised [00:20:30] that that wasn't me. Um, so I would say any kind of sexual act of any sort of type I would class as losing your virginity. Ok, um, have you experienced abuse or abusive behaviour from people because of your sexual only verbal? Um oh, but there was this one time in Auckland. Oh, this one time I was getting excited. There. [00:21:00] I was, um, rather drunk. And there was this girl, a girl in the in the main street. And she just had these really unusual pants. And I walked up to her and I was just saying how how cool her pants were looking. And her boyfriends sort of punched me in the door and said, Piss off, you little faggot. And apart from that, a little bit of verbal abuse when it first came out. But nothing, nothing. Nothing major. OK, uh, thank you [00:21:30] for the interview. Thank you. Thanks.

IRN: 638
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_royale.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004008
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089302
TITLE: Royale - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; New Plymouth; Taranaki; Taranaki LGBTQ; Waves Taranaki; We Are Who We Are; bisexual; coming out; dance; family; friends; music; panromantic; relationships; school; sex; social media; support; transgender; youth
DATE: 10 August 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: New Plymouth, New Plymouth, Taranaki
CONTEXT: In this podcast Royale talks about being young, bisexual and panromantic in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm good. Thank you. That's good. Uh, what is your name? Royal Royal. I love that Russian royal. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Um, it's not really much to tell. I'm a very interesting person. Uh, I work as a waitress. I don't go to school anymore. And I basically do nothing every day because I only work on weekends. So what a great life. It's fantastic. [00:00:30] So, um, what about your personality? Can you tell us a little bit about your personality? Um, it's usually a bit up and down, but I generally I do try to be a bubbly person because I notice that it makes other people happy when I'm happy. So I generally like to be most often happy. But if something's bad, then I'm just like, Oh, I hate my life. Yeah. So what is what is your hobbies [00:01:00] and or do you have any hobbies or what is your likes? Um um, like, I kind of like bits of everything because my dad's a hunter fisherman and my mom's very artsy craftsy, So I kind of got both, but I love dancing and singing and playing guitar and hanging out with friends is a good thing that makes me happy. Like playing guitar. What's your favourite song? I don't have a favourite song. I feel like the other songs get left out. So I don't like favourites. Really? Oh, [00:01:30] that's so cute. I don't want to. You're leaving out all these bunch of the songs? I have feelings here pretty much. They're like my Children. I remember I. I think, um, I can't remember if this is a Madonna quote or anything like that. I can't remember who it is, but I remember something like that. Um, I think it was Madonna. She said that I cannot choose any of my favourite songs because it's like choosing. [00:02:00] Um, it's like choosing Which one's my favourite child, but we all know which one it is. It's Stephanie. No, no. Um, I think your favourite song is like like a prayer. Um, Anyway, what is your gender identity? Gender identity. First, what is your sex? I am a female. OK? Your gender identity. Um, it's kind of like [00:02:30] I'm asking you, Are you transgender? Do you identify your gender to be male or female or any other gender that I am a female and I identify myself as a female. OK? And what is your sexuality? I am bisexual. Bisexual? And what is? How do you express yourself? Do you express yourself feminine or masculine or any other way, but are both really but more feminine than anything? OK, so, um, when did you realise that you were attracted [00:03:00] to the same gender? Um, I think it was about two years ago when I was at girls high because I was surrounded by girls and I was like, Wow, Wow, she is She's really hot. And then I was like, Wait, why am I thinking that like, I was really confused for about a year and like, I didn't have I. I had so many friends I [00:03:30] like, but I didn't know whether any of them were gay or bi, so I didn't have anyone I could talk to about it. So I got really confused and I just pushed it aside and said, No, I'm completely straight. And then I found friends that I found out with and you know, gay and I was like, Oh, it's OK to be there, you know, like it's OK to be to have feelings for both genders like and so I was like, Ok, well, I'm gonna I'm gonna accept it. I'm you know, I like both [00:04:00] genders. I am. And it felt so good to accept it. Like, do you feel that you're bi or pansexual? Um, do you know what sexual? Yes, I do. I do. Um, I think, like I'd identify myself to identify myself as a pan romantic bisexual, like I would date a transgender like I have, but I don't feel sexually attracted to them, like, you know. So, yeah, I would date a a transgender [00:04:30] person, but I'm not sexually attracted to them, so I wouldn't I wouldn't identify myself as pansexual. I identify myself as a pan romantic bisexual, going all complicated here, getting real complicated going into details. How do you feel? I know, Um, So So when you first realised that you're, um obviously you already answer it. When you first realised, you kind of felt [00:05:00] that you had to keep it a secret. I was like, I didn't know many people that were in it. It seemed kind of wrong to me at the time because I was young. and I You know, I didn't know anything about it, and it just felt wrong and I didn't, like, didn't want to tell my friends how I was feeling because I'd scared the judgement and be like, Oh, you like chicks? You might like me. Oh, go away. You know, like so I was scared of like [00:05:30] about it. I didn't. I wanted to keep it a secret. And I just ended up pushing it out of my head and out of my mind. Have you ever thought that you could actually say to them like, Oh, you like males? And you never say that to them kind of thing? Not really. No, I don't think so. You're thinking that now. I was like, Hey, that's a good point. I should have said that. Whoops. Um, So you are you out of the closet or, um, the imaginary [00:06:00] closet, I wonder. Yeah, I guess you could say that. Like all my friends know, I'm very open about it. If someone asks me, I'll tell them. You know, it's not a secret anymore. The only person like the only people that don't know is my family. Like I'm not even sure if my mother completely knows, Like I hunt at things and I tell her that I'm coming here to group. But I don't think she completely understands that. Because I haven't, you know, said to her mum I'm by like, she [00:06:30] I think she just kind of guesses. Really? Yeah. And I haven't told my dad because he thinks I'm an angel, and I don't I'm scared about his reaction. Yeah. Yeah. So, um who have you told first? I can't actually remember how I told first. Do you remember the main reactions that people gave out? It was mainly just Oh, [00:07:00] OK, I didn't know that about you, but OK, I still accept you as who you are, because I'm fairly certain the people who I first told were by themselves or, you know, gay themselves. So they understood. So, like, it wasn't like, Oh, my God. What? It was like, Oh, that's cool, you know? So what would the grandparents think? Yeah, think about the Children when somebody please think about the Children. So [00:07:30] it's like that skit that I did before. It's like, um, gay parents when a gay, when a straight child came out to the gay parents. It was like Dad, Dad, I'm straight. Oh, no. Well, the guy. Oh, funny. Anyhoo, um, so they were all fine with it? [00:08:00] Yeah, they were really accepting, which was really good, because I was so scared of it, and so wanting it to keep it a secret, it was so good to have somebody who understood and accepted me. Yeah. Yeah. So I kind of got distracted because I was playing Crocodile Rock. Um, that's very hard to concentrate. Um, so yeah. So when did you join up with this group? The LGBT? [00:08:30] Well, I was talking to, like before it all first started. She's saying I'm going to start a G BT group, and I said, Oh, that's, you know, really cool and like And it all started, and I didn't end up coming to the meetings because, like, I just kept on slipping my mind. And only recently I started to, you know, regularly come to the meetings and like, it's been really good. I'm really glad that somebody started this and, you know, [00:09:00] and now we both friends and becoming like a family. Yeah. Yeah, pretty much like I met so many new amazing people like and I'm like, I found out so many people that I didn't know were that way inclined, Like people that I went to school with, I found out that they're bi or, you know, a lesbian, and I'm like, Oh, wow, I didn't know that about you, you know, like, they probably didn't know that about me either. So it's it's really I think it's a really good thing that they've done this. [00:09:30] Yeah. So, um, this has become your main support system in a way, hasn't it? Yeah, because, like, um, So you got a nickname, Mom? Oh, he's my son. Um, Facebook. So I call on my son because, like, he's like a son to me. I look after him, watch out for him and all that. So, um yeah, Theresa. It [00:10:00] pretty much has become like a support group for me because, like, I have so many friends that come to this group and that are my friends outside of this group. So I know I can talk to them about anything. I know I can talk to anyone in this group about anything, and they'll be there for me, which is a really good thing because I haven't had that before, but I haven't had a definitive people that I can go to and say, Look, I need your help. I'm going through a rough patch. I need to talk to somebody, and now I do. And it feels really good. [00:10:30] Yeah. So, um, you've been in a couple of relationships before? Yes. Were they both males or a couple of them? Females or transgender? I've generally been in relationships with males. I've been in one relationship with a transgender. Um, I've never been in a relationship with a female because I haven't actually found, like, I've been attracted to females. I've liked, you know, girls. [00:11:00] But I haven't found any of them that felt the same about me. Like so I haven't actually had a chance to be in a relationship with a girl. And a lot of people have given me shit about that, like, because people that know I'm by and a lot of people say to me, You know, Oh, you're not by because you haven't been in a relationship with a girl. It's like, Well, no, that's That's not right. Just because I haven't been in a relationship one doesn't mean I'm not, you know, attracted to them doesn't mean I don't like them. And like, [00:11:30] so, Yeah, that that was really it's been really tough on me people saying that like, because they don't have the right to say that. And so yeah, mainly guys, one transgender and no girls. So, um, being in the closet from your family has that ever affected your relationship with a transgender person? No, because I live with my mom. Um, I see [00:12:00] my dad every now and again, but I don't live with them. And, um, Mum just thought, like, because the transgender person there was a female that was wanting to be a guy and mom just thought it was one of my girl mates, uh, that, you know, she came around and hung out and, you know, had sleepovers and all that stuff, so it didn't affect family life in any way. Really, Uh, have you ever been [00:12:30] scared to be in a relationship with someone or try to get into a relationship and no, really? Like, I don't really see what this is to be scared of about getting into a relationship. You know, if you like somebody If you love spending time with them, then there's really nothing to be scared about. And if you're scared about something in a relationship, then obviously something's not right, because [00:13:00] there shouldn't be anything to be scared about. Really. OK, um, so what is your definition in virginity? My definition in virginity confused, elaborate On. A lot of people have their own definition of virginity, and it's a bit a lot of people. It's a big discussion that people don't even know what virginity is. Or some people don't even have meaning of virginity because it doesn't matter or [00:13:30] doesn't have meaning to themselves. To me, virginity is being like never being sexually active or to be. It's kind of like being pure in a way like like being completely pure and clean and innocent and like, when you're a virgin, you're just like, yeah, they like pure and clean. [00:14:00] But not I'm not saying like not being a virgin is dirty and gross and yucky, but it's like it's just that sense of purity, the experiences that you haven't had yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah, pretty much so, Um, how do you meet other people in the LGBT community? Just through the group or, um, a lot of people I've met in the LGBT community is like through my friends, because my friends have friends that are, you know, LGBT. [00:14:30] And so I meet them and I'm I'm a very outgoing person. Like when I meet somebody, I'll be like, Hey, how's it going? I'm royal, you know, and give them a hug and all that. So, like, I'm a very friendly person. So it's not like I have trouble making friends or anything. So it's just like, Yeah. Oh, thank you for the interview. That's all right. Thank you for interviewing me. Not a problem.

IRN: 637
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_lou.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004007
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089301
TITLE: Lou - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Grindr; New Plymouth; Q12 (series); Taranaki; Taranaki LGBTQ; Waves Taranaki; We Are Who We Are; cis female; coming out; community; demisexual; family; gender identity; genderqueer; identity; marriage; marriage equality; media; nzdating. com; panromantic; pets; piercing; politics; regions; relationships; religion; sex; sexuality; social media; support; youth
DATE: 11 August 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: New Plymouth, New Plymouth, Taranaki
CONTEXT: In this podcast Lou talks about being young, demisexual and panromantic in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm smashing, darling. How are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm smashing, darling. I'm smashing as well. It's like smashing Punkin. Smashing, Smashing darling. Smashing chick bongs. I'm really in dollars shaken, not stirred. OK, um, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? I'm Lou. I'm 22. Um, Lou, 22. I like to rhyme if I have the time. Um, I'm Yeah, I'm 22. [00:00:30] I have piercings. Um, I'm queer of some variety. Um I like stuff and rats. I like rats, Right. I like rats. Do you have a rat tail? I want a rattail. I did have a rattail. I had eight rats at one point. They're not the crazy cat lady. No, I'm the crazy rat lady. I am the crazy rat lady. So you're like eating rata toy. Oh, yeah? Yeah. How many piercings do you [00:01:00] have? Um, 99123456. 123456789. Don't show me that one. Um, so you're 22. You are. Um What's your name? Um, What is your sex? Um, I am a female [00:01:30] female, You know, you you know, the whole line between sis and da da da. So your gender identity is female? Yeah. Yeah, I'm gender queer or gender. Fuck. Can I say gender? Fuck, I'm saying gender. Fuck. You're saying gender. Fuck. Damn right. Yes. And what is your sexuality? Um, demisexual Pan Romantic. We're going all technical here, but as you can see here in the textbook, [00:02:00] you can you know what this is about? Can you actually explain that for some of the people who have any ideas who pan romantic is kind of like pansexual in that I can feel romantic towards males, females, intersex, transgender, the whole the whole spectrum of of people. Um, but when it comes to the actual sex [00:02:30] itself, uh, I don't have that. I don't have that feeling. Um, it takes a lot of actual getting to know a person and having that connection before I could open myself up to sexual activity. That is quite descriptive. Thank you. So, um, when did you first realise? Yes, Lincoln Park is probably in the background. Um, when [00:03:00] did you first realise that you were attracted to Well, can I say, attracted to the same gender? Well, I feel attraction. Just not sexual attraction. Um Oh, OK, uh, when I was 13, um, in my music theory class, we had a new kid, and I thought he was delicious. We we got along like a house on fire. And, um, it wasn't [00:03:30] until we were in the same changing room that I actually realised that he was a He was a chick, um, which was very awkward for me because I was brought up super Catholic, and all of that stuff was very much frowned upon. You know, pray the gay away. Um, but I was really surprised to realise that I didn't actually care that he was a she I just liked, liked him for who he was. And he actually prefers male gender pronouns, I think. Anyway, um, [00:04:00] was he actually, um, so he was into six or no, he was female, but he was very Andy, so he kind of So he was a female, but he would prefer, um, being called a male. Well, not that not at that point in time. Um, it's just been since we both left high school, and he, you know, got all of his fan girls in Wellington that it really? Um I don't think he actually cares. And I really like [00:04:30] that I. I mean, he's, like, a real inspiration to me because I wish I could care that little about about my own gender, because, I mean, I still question it sometimes was like, you know, who is it that does, man, I feel like a woman should IT Yes. You know, the whole, like men's shirts, short skirts, top hats and shit, The whole feminine but [00:05:00] semi looking, quite acting masculine, like Yeah. Yeah, that's that's very attractive to me. Um, pride? Absolutely. Um, I really do go for the for people that kind of cross those boundaries. Um, like, it wasn't wonderful [00:05:30] photos of big kind of mountain men looking dudes with the shaggy hair and the big beards and the septum, piercings and stuff in, um, beautiful lacy dresses. And I thought, Wow, that is beautiful. That is fantastic. You're really attracted to masculine people, aren't you? Not necessarily masculine people. Um I like my guys fem I like I like fem guys and masculine girls. [00:06:00] Yeah, and masculine girls, but not not too masculine. I mean, like, you don't want them to grow a beard, or they can if they like. I mean, you know, if they want to. I mean, I plan on, um, drawing on a different moustache every day for November to raise money for whatever November's for, mainly because I want to wear a prostate cancer. Prostate cancer, mainly. Just because I want to wear a different moustache every day just to, you know, [00:06:30] be a bit of a gender fuck. Really? Um, like, um, Alan Page has that kind of aspect to her that I like. I mean, yeah. Yes. So going back to the question. So you realised when you were 13, when you when I was 13, [00:07:00] and I got a crush on a guy that was actually a girl. So, um, from you know, yeah dot Whenever we were playing dress up, I wanted to. I wanted to be the prince. Yeah, princesses are boring, and they just sit in their towers twiddling their hair, whereas princes are handsome and they get to go out and slay dragons and get all the chicks and do stuff and have fun thrown away. You kind of always known, but not always like self consciously. You did, But you didn't. Yeah. So, um, [00:07:30] when you how did you feel At the time where you actually came to terms like, Oh, my God. I'm starting to have feelings for this for the same gender, but at the same time, I just feelings to, um, males as well. Um oh, I was Oh, I was surprised. And I was I was a little bit ashamed in the beginning because that's [00:08:00] how I'd been raised. It wasn't the kind of thing that you did it like. Hm. This is new. Yeah. This is This is this is new. This is this is interesting. This is something I really need to look into. Because if it's a if it's a bad thing, I want to stop it. And if it's a good thing, then I want to, you know, explore it. Um, but I just noticed that you got your nails done. Yes, I'm a zebra. Is that I thought it was like Katy Perry. Oh, OK. Well, maybe that too. Or Katy Perry. Nail polish. [00:08:30] Shitty, dodgy Asian shop white with black cracking stuff on it. Yeah, I like it, though. Um, but yeah, it was a bit awkward. because there was a beautiful gay boy a few years older than me at school. Um, that went to our church and he was obviously very gay. He took he he wore glitter and took a boy to the ball and stuff, but he wasn't shy about it. But I mentioned I mentioned [00:09:00] to my mum that David was gay and Mum was like, Oh, no, he's not. He can't be. I was like, Well, yes, he's not, You know, he's pretty fabulous and he's out there and stuff and oh, no, no, he's not gay. He can't be gay And I'm like, Yeah, he can, you know, he texted me the other day saying, I'm in Wellington loving it. There's so many cute boys. Paul, Louise, he he did that for your sake. He said there were cute boys. For your sake. Um, how many self-respecting straight guys text anyone saying OMG There's so many [00:09:30] cute boys here. Uh, and she's Oh, no, no, he couldn't. He couldn't be gay because he goes to our church and we wouldn't give him communion if he was gay. And it's like, Well, that's a reflection on your fucking church. It's nothing to do with his sexuality. So, yeah, After that conversation, I was just like, Ah, maybe we'll just keep that quiet. Yeah, We'll just keep that quiet for a while. So have you actually come out to your parents now? Kind of. [00:10:00] Actually, it was earlier this year because, uh, my mom thinks that everything I do I do with the intention of shocking her. How lovely. Yeah. So she's deliberately not shocked. She you know, she she doesn't want to give me the satisfaction of of reacting how she thinks I want her to react. She's quite good because I don't actually care. Um, it's like, um Mum, I'm gay. I'm not shocked. No, [00:10:30] that's that's That's fine. That's how it is. Yes. No. Um, but yeah. I mean, I dated a trans guy for a while. Um, and I told him he was a trans guy, and we both went to girls high back in the day. And Mum's just like, Oh, OK, that's that's fine. Whatever. I'm not shocked. But then, I mean, after what, half a year of helping to do the, uh, Taranaki LGBT Q thing. [00:11:00] Mum was somewhere else, and I was talking to her about LGBT. And she's like, So which one are you? Yeah, which which letter are you? Are you the L or are you the T or I'm the B? Because, well, there's no There's no category for demisexual Pan Romantic. So I was like, I'm I'm by that all that and she's like, Oh, OK. Well, actually, well, when you think about LGBT is not actually a common thrace anymore, we actually prefer to use LGBTI [00:11:30] Q, which is lesbian, intersex and queer, which I guess when you say queer, that kind of covers everything in a way, even though not a lot of people like to use that. But still, I still I think the science get used to that. Yeah. Yeah, and it's good. It's nice to, um remember all of our list mentioned. Yeah, because if we if we [00:12:00] had a big word, we'll be eventually naming every fucking letter of the alphabet and double ups and there'd be stars and, you know, like, Trans Star. And not just that. It would be like G BT IQLMFOM OPW T, FA OBBQ helicopter ruffle, ruffle [00:12:30] iron, et cetera. So, um, you've come out to your parents kind of in a way, yeah. Um, as far as I can tell, they're probably aware of it by now. Because I told my mom that I was coming here. And, um, something about how interesting Conta is. Gender speculum, speculum, spectrum, nothing [00:13:00] to do with speculums. Nothing. Um, and Mum said something about how old? Well, there's only a couple of genders and only a couple of sexualities. So you know, chances are there are going to be double ups. And I'm like Mum, there are heaps, you know, like both gender and sexuality and gender identity. And everything in between is is a spectrum. And Mum's like, Oh, Louise, I think you're on quite a few spectrums. [00:13:30] I'm like, Thanks, Mom, because, yeah, I, I think she's trying to understand. Well, I have. I have some variety of mild autism, which is a spectrum as well, so she's like, Oh, Louise, you and your spectrums. And that's what's just some There's theory, saying that, um, people are arrogant because they're uneducated. However, there are some people who are open minded and [00:14:00] arrogant because they're willing to learn, but no one's actually been telling them or, and there's close minded arrogant where you should just probably stay away from them. Yeah, Yeah. Um, I'm pretty sure if and when I do get a girlfriend or a long term, some kind of variety of gendered partner, Uh, my parents are just gonna shake [00:14:30] their heads and go, you know, But at the same time, I'm not shocked. No, no, not shocked. A little disappointed, but I'm not shocked. I'm not shocked. No, I always knew you'd do something like this to us. Louise always knew you'd be the one that did something to us like this. Always having to push those boundaries. Yes. Everything I do, I do to influence you. Nothing to do with anything about how I think [00:15:00] or feel. It's all about getting back at you because I'm some rebellious teenager, silly people. OK, when did you come out of the closet? Um, I don't think I was actually ever in there like the imaginary The imaginary Closet of wonder with unicorns. If you're so deep in there that you can see Narnia. Yeah, yeah, I mean, occasionally, I find I still [00:15:30] find myself finding Christmas presents. It's Yeah, sometimes, like, you know, with my grandmother and things It's like, you know, I grow my hair and dye it brown or blonde and, you know, put on nice clothes and Oh, hello, Louise. Have you got a boyfriend? Oh, not yet, Nana. But, you know, I'm sure I'll find a nice boy and give you lots of great grandkids. [00:16:00] Oh, that's nice, dear, but yeah, it's quite funny, because that's what my grandparents say to me now. Hello, Ben. Have you got a nice boyfriend? Oh, that's good. Oh, yeah. Yeah, for me. It took a while. Yeah. Um, I don't I don't know if I ever did, like, come out of the closet, because I only really thought I had, [00:16:30] like, 1 ft in there with the rainbow sock on, obviously the rainbow sock in the closet. You know, that's what they should do for like, um, an artistic photography thing. They should get a closet. One person that is like rainbow leg in the closet. That's all happy. And like the other half of them is out of the closet. It's all black and white, like business suit with, like, one pants leg rolled up with a with a sock and a sock. [00:17:00] A brown sock brown sock and a business shoe and a rainbow sock and a ruby slipper. Ruby slipper? Yeah, a friend of Dorothy's. Man, I think it should be like a team, like a like a 17 year old team. One is in, like, um, uniform. Because that that's a good idea. Yeah, that's it. I wonder if we could make, like, a half, Um, schoolboy Short, half skirt kind of deal. [00:17:30] That's stereotypical. I suppose it is. Probably like skinny jeans. Yes. Skinny jeans, skinny jeans, skinny jeans. Um, back to what we were. Don't you sidetrack me. You derailed my train of thought, so I only have a one track mind. So you work with, um You kind of work with wave, don't you? In a way, um, yeah, well, I don't. I work with them. I don't work for them. I, um you're a volunteer of facilitation, but unofficial [00:18:00] either. I'm an official volunteer facilitator. Yeah, um, you do more work than the facilitators themselves. I do. Um the Yeah, um it's a really good thing, and I'm so I'm so glad that waves has actually allowed us to do it because we are overdue for for some kind of outlet for the queer Youth. Um, a parent. I mean, I moved here in 2007, [00:18:30] and there was always a poster in waves that said, Like, you know, Rainbow Youth kind of thing meets this Wednesday or something. And I said, Oh, wicked. So we're doing this Rainbow Youth thing on Wednesday. 00, now there's an old poster it it, You know, we haven't done it in in years and we'll bring it back sometime. And you know it will happen all the time. I'd go in there and say, Hey, you know, how's that happening? How's that happening? Where are you from, man? It's still I see the poster. Take the poster [00:19:00] down if you're not going to do the thing. So I take the poster down. And that was 2007 and this is 2012 and it took. It took Tegan. You know, she did that all herself. To which, in a way, she's great that she created the space. It was fantastic, Um, even though she's not wholehearted into it nowadays, but at least at the moment, she's not, although she is very busy because she's a performer and I love that word performer [00:19:30] as a mom. Dad, I'm a thespian. A thespian? Yeah. Mom, Dad, I'm a thespian. But no. Can you explain what a thespian a thespian is? Um, someone in the in the theatre. Like a lesbian theatre person? No, the word is thespian. Uh, mainly goes by, like I think it was kind of Shakespearean, um, attitude. And, like, plays and things. It just happens to sound a bit like [00:20:00] lesbian, so that's quite convenient. Um, but yeah, I mean, I was, I think, um, in the nineties, there was, um, there was a youth. There was a LGBT group called. I forgot what it's called it. I think it starts with S. It's it's something silly, like not completely silly, but silly. It's spit or something like that. Squirt squirt. [00:20:30] That's a good name. I think it's called. I'm not. It should be called squirt. If there isn't one, we should make one called. I'm not entirely sure, though. I think it's called Squirt or something like that. But I interviewed someone the other day and they said in the nineties they had a, um, or nineties early two thousands. They had a youth group. And, um, their group was called LGBT Squirt or something like that. But, um because that, um because there was, like, this big age bracket [00:21:00] between, like, um, all the people that went originally grew out of that and they couldn't keep it running. Because people grow out of it. You grow out of being? Well, no, not grow out. But people start having lives and away and having families of their own, I suppose. Yeah. So they couldn't, actually. Yeah. And plus, the younger ones can really hang out with a whole group of people who are, like in their forties. Yeah, I can see that [00:21:30] being interesting, though it is really good to have Kimberly in our group. Her being like, early forties. It's nice to have a an older perspective compared to, you know. Yeah. So, um, you've been in relationships before. Um, I've been in a couple of relationships before, mainly with males and mainly with, well, kind of entirely with males. Because I I consider my trans guy as a guy because, you know, so yeah, [00:22:00] fully with males, though, I. I mean, I'm not adverse to females. I just haven't found any yet that I have the right one. Yeah, I haven't. I haven't found the right one yet. Whereas I find it's easier to, um to get a boy because, you know, they're all, like, all sex. And as much as I'm not all sex it, you know, for a while, at least they [00:22:30] can. They can pretend that they're going to get laid out of this. Um, and even if you just get them to start humping your leg a little bit like yeah. Good boy. Good boy. Here, here is a pillow. There you go. Yeah, Yeah. Hump the elmo. The elbow. Yeah. Oh, like that. That ducky on Click that the dog would always hump the movie. We've had them say in the club. Um, but yeah, I mean, [00:23:00] I was All of my partners have wanted to get laid. Um, and they've booked. Sorry. And they've got rid of me when they didn't, um, which is disappointing, but well, if that's what a relationship is based on, then they're not getting a relationship with me. Um, [00:23:30] I Yeah. So I've Sometimes I get really frustrated at myself. Oh, I might tear up, but sometimes I get very frustrated at myself for not having that sex drive and that sexual nature about me, because I just I suppose this is how full on homosexual feel all the time in that. [00:24:00] Gosh, sometimes I just wish that I was like the rest and I Everything would just be so much easier for me if I if I fit it in, Um, because I mean as simple as it is to not feel sexual, it's very difficult because sex is such a big thing in every relationship. I mean, it's not the only thing in every relationship, obviously, but it definitely is [00:24:30] quite a big thing, particularly when you between the ages of about 15 and 25 because that's the you know, that's the sexual time. Yeah, that's the prime time for sowing your wild oats, and when you hit 30 you're practically dead. 30 is practically 50 which is practically dead. So I feel as though I'm kind of missing out on some amazing experiences because I'm not sexual or well, [00:25:00] I am sexual but not super sexual, because I actually have to spend a lot of time with someone and get to know them and trust them before I can open up. It just feels like it would be so much easier if I could just go. You know, you're attractive. I have sexual attraction towards you. Do you have sexual attraction towards me? Yes. Well, let us have intercourse. You know, I don't think they actually do it like that. It's more of [00:25:30] a you know. Yeah, It it's more of a Oh, you get drunk and wake up next to someone naked. But they don't do that anymore either. Yeah, well, you know what I mean, though it's more like go on grinding And like I like, Hey, you have an attractive photo. I have an attractive photo, too, and then they meet up in person. It's like you're nothing like the photo, but But you're here, so bend over. Yeah, exactly. You know. Oh, well, heck, I'll make do, um, And if if I could get, [00:26:00] like, sexual release, which I hear is so amazing, um, and I could give someone else sexual release, which I hear is so amazing. Um, it would be fantastic if myself and someone else could get together and give each other mutual sexual release. But since I don't I don't think that well, I don't feel that and I don't I can't do that. Um, it just makes me feel as though I'm missing [00:26:30] something, missing some big important thing, and it's just kind of disappointing. And sometimes I get really angry at myself for for not just biting the bullet or a pillow as it is, um and yeah, you know, and not just making myself go out and have those sexual experiences because everyone else tells [00:27:00] me about how their sexual experiences have helped them grow as a person and make new friends and associates and lovers and all of that stuff. And sometimes I do get angry at myself for not having the balls to go out and force myself into things that I wouldn't actually be comfortable in but would apparently help me grow as a person. I think that's not actually a problem that you don't want to have the I don't actually think this. I know that it's not a problem having a big high [00:27:30] sex sex drive. It's a thing that sex is not actually that important. And well, if someone can't accept that day, well, then they're not the right person. No, they're not. But and everybody is different in their own way because they were born this way. I guess I am on the right track, baby, you're born this way. Um, so it is particularly hard between the ages of about 15 and 25 to find a partner [00:28:00] that is OK with a sexless relationship. Um, because that is your your prime time for you know, all of that shit. But yeah. Given time, I guess. Yeah. So, um, you work in the community a lot, Little bit, Um, how is the community? Accept the group? Ah, they don't, [00:28:30] um, they put up with it, but yeah, they they they tolerate it because, you know, the idea is funny to them. Um, and they were like, Oh, we're a versatile community. We accept everybody, but truly, we don't We just tolerate it. Yeah. It's like, See, we allow those homos to get together in a in a quiet place, far away from us to to do their little homo business. See, we're accepting. [00:29:00] I mean, if you know, if they if they, you know, come out on the street with all of their homos, they'll get you know they'll get ridiculed and bashed. But, hey, at least we have a little separate segregated group for them to go and be their homos in diversity diversity. See, we have our we have separate special groups for those minorities to go be minorities in. What does this sound like? [00:29:30] Then They're going to have, like, gay water, gay drinking fountains and gay buses and gay toilets. Oh, no. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. Well, no. Oh, dear, but yeah, they I would like to think that they're accepting, but, um I mean, [00:30:00] um, when the group first started and the idea of, you know, trying to get marriage equality legalised, which looks so exciting. Oh, we're on the verge of something Amazing. We're on the right track on the right track, baby. Hell, yeah. Um, on stuff they did a, um is it a poll? You know, what do you think of, you know, [00:30:30] gay marriage and homos in general? And there were a lot of very closed minded, very negative, very ignorant people that came out of the woodwork. Um, sadly, most of them were locals, which it's Taranaki. So I suppose they're, you know, farmers that rather buck a cow than someone with their own gender. Um, [00:31:00] but it was also good because a lot of supporters came out and said, Well, you know, I'm straight. But I have gay friends, and, um, you know, they've all moved off elsewhere now. But if they'd had a group like this when we were younger, it would have been fantastic for them kind of thing. So it does go both ways. Um, there there will always be haters, but it's good that there are also supporters [00:31:30] that out when the haters do rear their ugly heads. I think also, in a way, during the next couple of years, while while this bill is going through, it's going to be quite tough for the community. But that's when we need to stay, stick strongly together. Um, I mean, especially in locals. And um, yeah, since it's come out, I mean, I've deliberately avoided talkback radio because I don't want to hear all the bigots. I just don't or the big gets as I like to call them, Um, [00:32:00] because it's just sad, but yeah, it is gonna be very hard for for us as a as a community of Rainbow Children. Um, over the next few years, But I, I believe that we can sit together and support each other and stay strong. And even if the bill doesn't pass even if we land back in square one the next few years, we will have [00:32:30] refined and reinforced and created a strong, stable community. Something that we've actually missed for a long time. Long time, Um, and yeah. I mean, even if this bill does fall flat, it will have given us an opportunity to get out and say, you know, we're here. We're queer. Get used to it kind of thing. Um hey, homophobia's got to go. Yeah, exactly. [00:33:00] So, um so how do you meet other people in the community? Do you just meet them through, um, the group or um, or do they actually come to you? Because I've noticed that you're like you're becoming like the mother. Gay? Yeah. Um, I am a bit of a fruit fly. How do I call myself? Um oh, [00:33:30] I mean, I'm a member of a lot of Facebook groups. Uh, you know, love knows no gender and no hate. And, you know, Taranaki, LGBT, Q and LGBT Q in general. And, um NZ gender queer, which is a fantastic, fantastic community. Um, lots of laughs with other like minded and not [00:34:00] quite like gendered but different people. Um, actually to, uh, help Try to get people to come to the the meetings. I went on NZ dating, and I went like, right, you know, search Taranaki female gay, See people, you know, message them and say, Hey, there's this fantastic thing happening, You know, this is the link to the [00:34:30] Facebook profile. This is when it's happening, rock up, you know? And then I did the same for gay males and transgender. Um, and I got a bit of interest. I mean, I think only a couple actually came to the meetings, but I've been in contact with others that aren't quite either are too busy to come to the meetings or aren't quite ready to come to the meetings. But it's still nice to have someone [00:35:00] out there, you know, be in contact with people and be able to support some people. Um, and I also know people that have joined um joined LGBT Q groups under aliases, you know, completely separate profiles because they don't want. They're not ready. Well, well, they're ready. But everyone else they know isn't ready for them to be themselves quite yet. [00:35:30] And that always breaks my heart, because I've never really had that problem. So, um, what is your definition in virginity? Virginity? Uh uh. That's a good question. Um um, sticking, [00:36:00] uh, if you're a dude that's sticking your Penis in any artifice and if you're a chick, it's sticking. Uh, any other part of someone else's body into your vagina? Um Well, well, that was what I originally thought, Um, although now I'm thinking close [00:36:30] to like that's much too technical. I think virginity is one of those things. You choose whether or not you've still got it or not, because I think virginity should be classed in having like, positive mutual intercourse with someone that you love, at least at the time. [00:37:00] Um so Heck, that means that there will be some you know, 14 year old kids out there who aren't virgins by my definition. And then there will also be some people that are in their forties that are virgins by my definition, because either coerced sex or drugged sex or un you know, loveless sex isn't. Shouldn't count towards the [00:37:30] the virginity or the the the purity of the person. Cos I mean, up until that point, it's just practise runs. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, cos then you get people that have been kitty fucked at age four and you want them to be virgins. Good God, You want them to be virgins, so they should be able to choose to say no. That was nothing. That [00:38:00] wasn't That doesn't count. You know, this special moment that I am sharing myself with someone and they are sharing themselves with me is the time that I have chosen to say yes. This is when I am giving my virginity to someone. Oh, thank you for the interview. Oh, thank you. I enjoyed it. Thank you.

IRN: 636
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_skye.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004006
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089300
TITLE: Skye - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Bay of Plenty; Rotorua; The Two Way Closet; abuse; closeted; coming out; dance; family; friends; homophobia; lesbian; regions; religion; school; single sex schools; social; support; violence; youth
DATE: 19 July 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Rotorua, Rotorua, Bay of Plenty
CONTEXT: In this podcast Skye talks about being young and lesbian in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm great, I guess. That's good. What's your name? Sky. Where are you from? Have you always been from Roto? I have. Yeah, I have. Yeah. So, um, are you moving somewhere else Soon. Um, I want to move to Auckland at the end of the year. We'll start next year, but I'm not sure yet. Possibilities? Yeah. Why is that? There's this, like, dance group thing up [00:00:30] there that they wanted me to join. Like my mate wanted me to join. So, you know, that's the only reason. Dance group. Oh, it's like, um, hip hop R and B group like, I can't remember what it's called. But, you know, they wanted me to join it, so it's like a three month contract. So I have to go to Auckland for that. And you're a good dancer. Not really, but they teach you, So I guess that's all good. I wonder why they want to hire you. Even though I have no idea. It was that random. They needed new [00:01:00] dances and stuff. They only had 37. They need, like, I don't know, a few 100 or something. But, you know, they kind of like, you just go in and you dance with them. And then they say, whether they want you or not, And then you get a three month contract, and if they like you after that and you stay on for another, like, three months at a time. So have you done that already? Just the dancing part auditioning. I haven't started that yet, but they want you anyway. Yeah, they do. They do, but I don't know. [00:01:30] So, um, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Um, I go to an all girl school, which sucks. And, yeah, I'm gay. I don't know. That's about it, I guess. Music. I like all music, actually. Anything like not really. I listen to, like, hip hop. Listen to metal and whatever. Really? You're not going to go screaming out? [00:02:00] Yes, I could. I remember this time where someone actually wanted to do that on an interview. I did not want that crazy. So, um, socialising you like socialise? Yeah, I do it all the time. Heaps of people come to my house and stuff. Your house is the place to be pretty much It's like the main place for my friends to shop like I don't really go to their places. Everyone shows up my mind. We have drinks and stuff. [00:02:30] So So, what's your gender identity? Gender identity? What do you mean? How do you, um What is your gender? What, like male or female? Female? Some people say their sex identity, what their sexes could be, what they physically are, and their gender identity is how they feel they are. And how do you express yourself as, [00:03:00] like, feminine or masculine? Know? I think I'd be in the middle of that like Soft Butch or hard fin. I don't know. A little bit in between a little bit. And what is your sexuality? Lesbian and proud. Very proud. Very proud of this field. So what was the, um When did you realise? Um, my my gay brother used to tease me about it when [00:03:30] I was growing up, But no II. I thought I like girls when I was, like, 10 or 11. And then? Yeah, I just knew from them Gay brother. Oh, yeah. My older brother Mark. He's 22 23 and he's gay, So Yeah, it was easier. Is there anybody else in the family. That's gas or just him that I'm aware of at the moment. But, yeah, your parents just randomly come out a bit awkward. The gene, [00:04:00] it seems like it runs in the family. Like my little sister was like, Oh, can I have a girlfriend? And I'm like, No, Hannah, you can't have a girlfriend. Just a little bit. So 10. 11 when you realise 10 or 11 when I fully realised. How about when you accepted it? I accepted it when I was about 13. Like, fully accepted [00:04:30] it. Did you ever feel that you had to keep it secret from everybody? I had to keep it a secret from my dad. I knew that. But my friends and stuff No. I told them everyone knew it before. I did. Apparently so like me. He was very obvious. And apparently I I come across as like lesbian, so I don't really need to tell people. I am. So how did you feel when you realised? Weird. Like I don't know. [00:05:00] I didn't feel normal, But my brother was gay, so that was easier. Like talk to him about it. This is new. I know. So when did you come out? Um, I came out. Oh, my God. Well, I was forced to come out when I was 13 because my dad caught me with my girlfriend, so yeah. Yeah. So he he kind of realised then my mum, she [00:05:30] said she's always known. So I don't know. It was easy with her. You know, I slightly want to imagine what the what the parents conversation would be the secret conversations that they always have when they find out. So Oh, the son is gay. The daughter is lesbian. What's next? My mom thinks it's funny because she just Oh, I don't know. My dad hates it. My dad hates gay, so I can't talk about it. Um, talk to him about being gay and stuff. [00:06:00] I mean, it's just crazy. Why do you think he hates it? Um, I don't know. He's always been homophobic. I don't know. Just doesn't think it's normal because he's like Christian and stuff. So yeah, yeah, like destiny church people. But he's not that hard core into it. He just hates gays. He wanted us to grow up and, like, have kids and stuff. And me and my brother can't well, we can, but not not in this legal society currently [00:06:30] not in the heterosexual way, but yeah. Yeah. So, um, how did you come out to everybody? Um Well, uh, I don't know. Kind of just eased into it. Told some people. Told some others And then I don't know. Everyone just knew I was gay. It was pretty easy for me. It wasn't for many other people. It wasn't easy for my brother because [00:07:00] he was the only gay one he knew. So, yeah. Was he shocked? Um, kind of a little bit, I guess. I don't know. Did he want to be like the only gay one in the family? Um, yeah, he's a bit like that. Damn. I wanted to be the special one. Yeah, he thinks he's better than one. And he's always like, Oh, I'm the prettiest one. And I'm like, Oh, God, you go, bitch. Please, Pretty much. But we get along heaps. Well, not anymore. But we used to. So how did [00:07:30] you feel about everybody's reactions at first? I didn't. I didn't like it how people would judge me about it. But now I'm just open about it. And people like throw random comments at me, and I just scream at them back, and I just don't care. Like, how does your friends react? Um, they were OK with it because I've been around a lot of like, I've got a lot of gay friends and stuff, so they didn't really It didn't bother them. They thought I was like, Oh, we always [00:08:00] knew because we are, too. Exactly. So when you came out, did you notice people start coming to you about, um oh, I'm actually kind of gay as well. I'm in the closet all the time like heaps of chicks and guys come up to me and, like, talked about it and, like, asked me how to like how they should come out and how they should tell their parents and stuff. And I don't know. I know, but, you know, it's cool. Cool. So [00:08:30] you you have a bit of a support system? I guess so. Well, I live with and Mark's a tranny, and I love Mark. You are my tranny. Mark is my trainee. He hates being called a tranny, but I call him that. So So you don't live at home anymore? No, I do but Mark just lives with us. Understandable kind of thing. Well, yeah, I love Mark. He's, like, my best friend, [00:09:00] so Ok, enough about me. Yeah, your next dollar. He says, Mark in the nervous corner. Where am I? I I've kind of lost myself. Um, So you've been in relationships before with girls with boys as well. Um, I tried that phase, and it was gross. I didn't like it at all, so yeah, [00:09:30] I, like put that thing back in your pants like it's looking at me with that one eye. Exactly. Oh, yeah. You just Yeah. Don't vomit memories. So, what were the relationships like for you? Uh, but they were all right. Some of them Aren't that be because, you know, girls with girls and stuff? Yeah, [00:10:00] It was hard, though, because people, like, don't like gays, so it kind of makes us like I don't know. Have you dated people in the closet? I have dated people in the closet, and I hate it. Like my last girlfriend I had, She was 21 and she would lie about me to everyone be like, Oh, it's just a friend, just a friend. And it just pissed me off like she's 21 and not out of the closet. So it annoyed me. So it was [00:10:30] a very awkward situation. It was I didn't know that she wasn't out like she was to some of her friends, but just not her family and stuff. So I don't know, she kept me a secret. I don't like being kept a secret like, especially if I'm out. So did you. Ever. So you never really had to, like, be yourself with each other when you were around each other. When you're around the family, we had to be real distant and stuff [00:11:00] around her friends. It was OK, but like her parents and her family and stuff had to act a little distant and be like, Oh, yeah, we're just friends. We're just holding hands because it's the fun. Thing is it's 2012. That's what we do these days. Yeah, exactly. Oh, yeah. I don't know. It just annoyed me. So, um, what was that? [00:11:30] Jordan. Um OK, um So how do you meet other people like gays? Um, through other gay friends? I don't know. It's just like when you're gay, you know, gay people because you attract the same type of people. So I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Is there a group in Aunt Ro Ro now? Uh, I wouldn't say a group of gays. It was like, Oh, I don't know. Like they all scattered around the [00:12:00] place doing their own thing. Really? It was originally a group of what happened. Uh, the group, uh, the group split up because dramas and stuff, and that was a two way closet, so that didn't last that long. Didn't think it would either. Why is that? Just gay dramas, you know? So and so slept with so and so. And that's my ex girlfriend. Yeah, just stuff like that. So what is your definition of virginity? Virginity? Um, it's a hard one. [00:12:30] Virginity, like as in, like, gay virginity or stuff or for your virginity to be taken. I reckon that's when you get intimate with the other. It doesn't have to be like, if you're a girl, you get intimate with a guy or whatever. Yeah, I reckon it's just when you get like, I don't know like, if you were a girl and you were to sleep with another girl, you would have lost your like gay virginity or whatever. So I don't know there's different forms of virginity. [00:13:00] Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. It confuses me a bit. People have their own definitions and stuff, so I have no idea. It's like one big maze of virginity. Yeah, it is. It is. It's crazy. It's like coming out of the course. That's a form of virginity. When you think about it, it is, Yeah, I think it's like I don't know how to explain it. It's really hard to explain. Know, kind of like going from one Dr like [00:13:30] one dramatic change to another, I guess. But like life changing, I don't know. Kind of Yeah. Have you ever experienced abuse or abusive behaviour because of your sexuality? Yep. A lot of it. A lot of physical and emotional and like screaming on the streets and stuff like that. Yeah, but that was probably the least of it all. It's been pretty bad. Like he beat me up and then beat up my girlfriend. [00:14:00] So it was like big court cases going and stuff. So that was probably the most like, the biggest thing. Yeah, very dramatic. But besides that. It's just been, like people yelling comments and, like, people at school trying to, like, push me around and stuff and, like, I don't know, stating the obvious being like, Oh, you're a lesbian And I'm like, Yeah, yeah, I am. I'm a lesbian. Get over it. Tell me something I don't know. Yeah, they they they, like, insult me as if I'm gonna, like, you know, prey on them and, like, be like, [00:14:30] Oh, you're hot. Come here. But no, no. Come here, little girl. Let me touch you. I want to do that. I have candy in my van into the dark side. Then Darth Vader, music comes was doing a little dance. The jellyfish jellyfish [00:15:00] makes you feel like your head. Is that what you do when you dance? Yeah, it is what I do Like that. Like we were trying to be a fish. We're like having a fish dance like the same. Yeah, OK, this interview is getting off topic. Um, so, uh, so, um, do you have any other comments? Um, not that I can think [00:15:30] of at the moment. No. Ok, well, thank you for the interview. Thank you for interviewing me.

IRN: 635
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_mark.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004005
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089299
TITLE: Mark - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bay of Plenty; Q12 (series); Rotorua; abuse; bullying; coming out; family; friends; gay; homophobia; hormone replacement therapy (HRT); internet; makeup; music; regions; relationships; social; transgender; violence; youth
DATE: 19 July 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Rotorua, Rotorua, Bay of Plenty
CONTEXT: In this podcast Mark talks about being young, transgender and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm good. Thank you. That's good. What's your name? My name's Mark. Where are you from? I've always been from Born and bred. Yeah. Born in bridge. And you're born this way. I was born this gay. Born this gay? Brilliant. Yeah, I'm beautiful. My gay. Um I can be one. Sorry. It's already the beginning of the interview. I've always lost track. Oh, yes. [00:00:30] Um, So, yeah. Um, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Well, OK, I'm pretty. Oh, I love love, love Lady Gaga. Because what gay person doesn't you know, someone has no soul? Yeah, Christian, I don't know what else to say. I'm fabulous. Fabulous. Absolutely fabulous. [00:01:00] So you don't like So you're not a religious person? Oh, definitely not or spiritual. What? Oh, spirit. Spiritual. Ah, no. No. So you like to socialise a lot? Um, on Facebook? Yeah. Go out. And not really with her with the sky most of the time, but yeah, that's pretty much it. I I'm a shy person, and yet you're sitting [00:01:30] on the couch talking to me. Surprisingly, yes. This was not supposed to happen. No, it wasn't. I came for your interview. Yeah. OK, so, um, do you like music? Oh, I love music. Yeah, not only that, but other crap as well. Other crap. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was all I did. [00:02:00] Yeah. I. I like lots of music, like different genre, you know, Hobbies, hobbies. Do you have any hobbies? Smoking? That's not a hobby. That's a habit drinking Starbucks. Is that Is that the hangout area? In as well as Hamilton, of course. In different locations? No. The hangout area is sky's dungeon. Sky dungeon, Sky dungeon. Yeah. Oh, [00:02:30] so that's what they call it. The dungeons. Yeah. And put some chains up and some whips. The whoops. Gotta have the whips. Yeah. So, um, so what is your gender identity? Um, I was born a male. I grew up as a male. And then I think it was three years ago. I decided to dress as a female, So Yeah, I'm female. You [00:03:00] identify yourself as a female. How do you express yourself? Masculine? Feminine. I'm definitely feminine. Yeah. Express yourself. Yeah. Yeah, if you know Madonna who? I'm just kidding. Just kidding. Just kidding For the person that's listening to this interview. Don't break the computer. Put the laptop down and breathe. I stick in that. [00:03:30] Don't come looking for me either. Um, so when did you realise? Oh, wait. What's your sexuality? My sexuality? Yes. Um, I'm gay. You're gay? I'm just I'm just gay. So when did you realise? Well, I think I grew up gay, but I didn't realise till I was, like, a teenager. And then I was like, Oh, yeah, I like Penis. [00:04:00] Penis. Penis wasn't always on the mind. And, Yeah, so you identify as female. Have you actually taken any hormones or anything like that? Um, not yet. Are you planning to? I'm planning to. Yeah. I'm just a bit slack at that. I know how to I just need to wait for the right time. For, like, for when I feel right about it. Yeah. You're looking for your moment. Yeah. Looking for my moment to shine the moment of? [00:04:30] I wouldn't call it that, do you? Uh, so do you have your own name? Um, we were actually thinking of names. I was gonna go with Nadia, but that's my cousin's name. And I don't want to steal her name. There was Twiggy. That's my Starbucks name? Twiggy? Yeah. Just because I'm a twig. Yeah. Yeah. And now where? Southern America. Yeah. Yeah. Is that Southern American? [00:05:00] No. Yeah. Yeah, that's yeah. Isn't German or Russian? Russian? Yeah. Uh, no. Russian jet. Yeah, very very. Um, So when did you realise again? Sorry, um, about Well, I [00:05:30] didn't. I fully realised about, like, three years ago when I started dressing as a female. And, um, when did you accept it? Oh, I kind of had a feeling that I was gay. I just accepted it anyway, but you've always accepted it. So there was no window period where you think Oh, I don't want to feel this way. No, no, no. It was like, Oh, I'm gay. I feel comfortable. So, yeah, I don't really care what people [00:06:00] think either. They could just be fucked. Yeah. Oh, that's all right. Um, so So you've never thought of, um are you actually out? Um, to my friends, But to my family, I think I What? What do your family think about you being transgendered? Um, they haven't said anything about it. My dad loves me for who I am. He said He said he's proud of me, and I guess that's [00:06:30] OK. It's a good thing. It's a good thing. Yeah, Um I haven't actually told them I'm gay, but they just know. So why tell them? Yeah, they've always had that. They've always new car. Yeah, they've always known. I think I hope so. I just don't want to tell them. I don't know how to approach them about it, and I'll just get really drunk. And one day I'm gay. So after those that you've got [00:07:00] good makeup on Oh, thanks. Did you do it yourself or Yeah, I'm obsessed with makeup. Aren't we all? Yeah. What do you use? What do I use? Yeah, Like, makeup, makeup? Um, whatever I can get my hands on. I love that. So you're so you're out to your friends and you expect you suspect expect suspect Suspect, um, your parents to know? Yeah, [00:07:30] yeah, yeah. So what's the reaction? What were the reactions like from my friends? They were just like, OK, cool. Like, they accepted me, and they didn't really care because they're gay anyway, So everything's been, like, positive. Mainly, Um, yeah. Yeah, Well, not everything, but, you know, um, [00:08:00] so you still go to school? No, I left, like, a year ago. A year ago? Hate school. And why did I get I got picked on and I just had enough. What school did you go to? Western Heights. Yeah, it was a homophobic school. Uh, there was some gay people there, but they got along with them, but I think they were, like, in the closet. But I knew they were gay because my gator was just dinging born this way ring to Yeah. [00:08:30] Um, yeah, I left because I got picked on. I couldn't handle it. I was just like, No, I'm gonna go somewhere where people accept me. Calm down. Calm down. Seven people. Um, So, um, so how did you feel about people's reactions? Um, well, I was just glad because I I told them I was just glad that they were all like, Oh, that's disgusting. We're not your friend anymore. But [00:09:00] I think that's the case with some of them because, um, I've actually lost quite a few friends from leaving school, but I think that was from leaving school, but I don't know, but I told them when I left and Yeah, yeah, yeah. So um you've had a bit of a support system there. Uh, not really. Not really. No. You had your friends or Well, they didn't know how to, like, approach it. They were [00:09:30] just like, OK, cool. Like and just carried on living our lives. Like like normal. Did you have any support system? I just had myself. I just kept telling myself that everything's OK. And you're I'm fabulous. Yeah, I can get through it. And I did. I still am. And you're happy? I'm happy. Happy Chappy. Kind of happy as Larry. Whoever Larry is, whoever that is. Who is Larry? Does anybody know who Larry is? Happy as Larry? [00:10:00] So have you ever been in a relationship? Um, not yet. Not yet. I mean, I'm looking, but it's hard because is a dump. And no one here is gay. This is a group of friends, and that's the gay group. Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah, they're all lesbians. It's hard for gay men to come out because is very judgmental about It's a very area. Yeah, they're accepting of lesbians, but [00:10:30] so you've got it easy, but yeah, ain't real. They're nonexistent. So, um, so how, um how do you meet other people? Um oh, I don't even know. I just meet them randomly. Those come to you? I pretty much. But I actually didn't have much friends before I met Sky, and then I met her. [00:11:00] And then I just met all her friends that would come over home, became friends with them and all their friends and their friends' friends. So yeah, I'm Yeah. So you love a sky I love? Yeah. I love with Sky how that situation came about, Um, I wouldn't leave. I just wouldn't leave. And I was just like, I don't care. I'm gonna give your mum some board. I'm gonna stay here. How long has it been? Now what? Four months? [00:11:30] Five months? I wasn't living there. Then, technically, technically, I went home for, like, two days and then came back and then started living there five months. Yeah. How did your parents take that? They were happy. They kept asking me, asking me if I was going to live with sky. And I was like, No, I can't bother by. There's too many people who are already. And then I was just like, Hey, I'm living here. See you later. and you're off. Yeah. So, um, what is your definition of virginity? What is my definition [00:12:00] of virginity? Who? Uh, uh, uh, I don't even know. Is there even a definition? Is there even a definition? What do you feel as a What do you feel? What virginity is, uh, when you have sex for the first time. First time? Yeah. Isn't that what everyone thinks of? Everybody has a different Everybody has a different, [00:12:30] different definition. Everybody has a different definition of virginity. So, um, let's look at my book. Um, have you experienced or gotten any abusive or abusive behaviour because it's your sexuality or being transgender? Um, well, my dad beat me up once, but I don't think that was because I'm gay. I don't know. We were drinking one night, [00:13:00] and it might have been actually because Yeah, and II I threw my can at him and I was like, Excuse me for saying this, but I was like, Fuck you. You're not my dad. Blah, blah, blah went inside. And then you just come in and started beating me up. And I was like, Who kicked him in the face with one of my heels? I ran. Yeah. Got a taxi and went to my aunt's house. Yeah, but I don't think that was because I'm gay. I don't know, but he was drunk. [00:13:30] And was it just a random drunk situation? Yeah, it was actually That ruined the night, though. But I remember that. Did you live somewhere else after that? Or, um I did, actually. I. I think it was a month after that. I was sick of that, like my family, because I kept arguing with them. So I moved to Hamilton, and I lived with, um my uncle's girlfriend's daughter. [00:14:00] Oh, Casey, we're going complicated. Yeah, uh, I lived there for six months. I was doing a course, and then I had to move back because the course ended and I wasn't getting any funding because I couldn't find a job while I was the course. It was like school. Pretty much level four. I didn't even know. I can't remember. It was like, um what was it? It's like English stuff. [00:14:30] Something Q a pretty much. But for university entrance, it's like a UE kind. Of course thing to get 11, as it was. Yeah, and yeah. And then I moved back, and then I think it was Three months later, I moved on with sky, and I'm happy. Very happy. Very happy. [00:15:00] So, um, do you have any other comments you you would like to make? Um, no, no, I'll stop. Well, thank you for the interview. Oh, no problem.

IRN: 631
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_alex_rae.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004004
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089298
TITLE: Alex-Rae - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Hamilton; Shine nightclub; Waikato; Waikato Queer Youth; Wellington; bullying; cis female; coming out; drag; early childhood education; education; family; friends; media; music; pansexual; relationships; religion; school; single sex schools; support; transgender; youth
DATE: 17 July 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Waikato, Waikato, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alex-Rae talks about being young and pansexual in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I am absolutely fantastic. How are you? I'm absolutely fantastic. So who are you? My name is Alex Ray. I'm from Hamilton. How much of a description do we need? As much as you want. Um, yeah. I work in childcare. I am queer. Identifying. Identifying? Yep. And, um what was I going to say? Purple [00:00:30] favourite music. Oh, that's a toughie. Don't even get me started on that. It's I got too much time anyway. Oh, wow. That quite like alternative rock bands. Yeah, mixed it with maybe a bit. A bit of gaga Always got like the gaga like park going like what? A famous song like paper cut or not? No, I got a tangent now. Don't you know Lincoln Park? Lincoln Park are crap. OK, fine. OK, fine. 30 seconds to Mars or something. Oh, yeah, yeah, [00:01:00] yeah. Give me some of that. Yeah. So closer to the edge, going closer to the edge. That sounds good. I should make that. That sounds like a good remix, but closer to the edge of glory, I like that. It was cool. Ok, um, warm toast. So yeah, just give that give that um, So you work [00:01:30] at Wacky? I do. I am a youth mentor at Wacky and I have been for since February this year. So that's how long is that? Like six months. Six months? Not. Not bad. And I've been a member here since 2009. I believe that sounds about right. So how old are you? I'm 18 years old, and I was 15 when I started. So have you always been a Hamilton person? Yes, I was born here. I lived in Wellington for a small part [00:02:00] of my life, and I've been around various places in the Waikato but mainly centred in Hamilton split custody between, like, four different families. So that's fun to fun. So as you went to Wellington, I was like, No, too much politics around here. I was, like, seven. And it was just crap. My dad forced me to move there. That was cool. Like around the time with Helen Clark. Oh, yeah. May have been actually. Ah, it takes me back. I don't think I ever actually saw the beehive. The entire [00:02:30] time I lived there, I went to a pupa like once a Clark. Anyway, So what's your gender identity. Um, I am AC female and your gender expression. I express myself as mostly female. Mostly mostly. I'm known to occasionally bind when the mood takes me. Just come out and say hello. I'm Bruce. Yeah, well, I've always been interested in becoming a drag king, [00:03:00] but I'm not sure I'd be much good at it. What would you be? What would your song be closer to? The closest to the age of We have to make it first. Oh, you just you just go on a bit far. I don't think I can think of that right now. Have to be a classic. Definitely, Definitely Have to be a classic. A rock song. Oh, yeah, yeah. Um a CDC. I don't know about that. Oh, into sand, [00:03:30] man. Oh, yeah, that's a good song. Is that metal? I've always liked that song. Yeah. Um, So what is your sexuality? Um, I identify currently as pansexual, pansexual. I dabbled in being bi and I claimed to be lesbian for a while, but I think I'm sticking with pan a bit everywhere. Yeah, Yeah. [00:04:00] Spread. Spread it all out. Put my feelers out there. It's like english breakfast in a way, I can't limit myself. The sausage of eggs. Is it English? Breakfast? Oh, no. I said egg this breakfast for waffles. OK, You know, I'm cold toasting that. Is it awkward even more when I say I'm I'm hungry. Was it because [00:04:30] I said waffles? Are you hungry already? I'm hungry now. Yeah, that that made a little awkward. Waffles. English breakfast? Yes. Um, where am I? Um so when did you realise that I was identifying? Oh, let's see. I actually the first time I was ever attracted to a female because, you know, I think that's probably a pretty good place to start was I was about 12 years old and I met [00:05:00] an openly bisexual woman who was maybe five years older than me. She was my best friend's older sister, and she was she was pretty cool. And at the time, I just thought she's pretty cool. And then after a while, I was like, You're actually pretty alright. And then I kind of denied it for a little while from there and then probably again when I was 14 and I had my first girlfriend. When did you accept it? I've always been accepting of it. I was raised in a household where you love who you love, And it doesn't matter if you want to explain [00:05:30] it to anybody. My grandmother is a lesbian. My brother is transgender, and pretty much doesn't really matter. So I didn't need to accept it because it was just a part of life. I was pre accepting pre accepting. So, like a prepaid card. Similar, similar sort of scenario. Yeah, I was ready. I was prepared for it. I'm prepared to be queer. Yeah, something like that. Yeah. Go into a shop to buy a prepaid like I want. I want to buy some pre paid. Accepting this, please. [00:06:00] I love this interview. Um, and was great. Yes, you are. Great. Um, So when did you came out of the closet? Ok, now you make things interesting. You mean to the community in general, to my family, to my friends, just wherever you started. Um OK, well, you know, obviously, first you've got to come out to yourself. So coming into the realisation in which I was great, I find, um then I [00:06:30] had a few girlfriends and a few boyfriends kind of in secret for a while, mostly because my parents thought I was too young to date. So it wasn't that I didn't come out that I was pretending that I didn't like anybody. Then when I was maybe 15, I was dating a young lady and, um, she wanted to stay at my house for the holidays. So we just kind of walked into my parents' house. And I said, This is my girlfriend Insert name here. And they were like, Oh, OK, that's so I came out to my dad and my stepmom, so they said, Oh, hello. [00:07:00] Insert name here. Yeah, exactly. And it was just didn't really matter carried on from there. And I came up to my mother by a similar sort of scenario Where I went. It's my girlfriend's birthday party. Can you drop me over to her house? Oh, who's your girlfriend and first name Pretty much, actually may be a different person. Come to think of it, think about it. Come with mum first. And then I started going to wacky, and I was outed at school by a then wacky member. And that wasn't all that great because she outed me as being a lesbian, [00:07:30] which I wasn't. And at an all girls school that was not overly acceptable, Especially in my very conservative group of friends. Yeah, some, some of some of the girls be like lesbian. That was pretty much the gist of it. I got shunned out of existence, and I was left with three friends from the entirety of high school because everyone else decided that the dirty lesbian must want to hit on me. But actual fact, I was like, Seriously, I'm not touch with a barge pole like don't flatter yourself. [00:08:00] How about, um did people start coming towards you saying, Oh, I'm actually a lesbian or Yes, that was mostly bisexual because, you know, girls are really proud of themselves and they're bisexual, and usually it's because I've had too many vodkas. So I had a few people that were sort of like I kind of know, being like, Oh, do your friends accept you because I'm actually buying. I'm worried I'm not going to have any friends. And I'm like, Well, no, my friends don't accept me, but good luck with that. And like, 000, yeah. But But you know, I'm here for you girl [00:08:30] whose name I'm not totally sure of. Thanks for coming out to me. Exactly. Yeah, that's probably the gist of it. Really? Yeah. So there are the girls that, um that didn't that were like and the girls are like and they were, like, after all that, actually, um, a friend and I were involved in a news article in the Wakata times about, um, you know, the queer youth community in the Waikato. [00:09:00] And I didn't It didn't occur to me then that, um I wasn't out to my extended family. And all of my grandparents are subscribers to the Waikato Times, so yeah, the next Christmas was was pretty interesting. I think my younger cousin said something to me along the lines of You didn't tell me you were gay. It's probably saying that I did as well. So mostly my coming out was forced, forced upon me, thrust upon me slightly unintentional, but accidental. [00:09:30] But, like, um, most of my family didn't actually mind. Really? Like my paternal grandfather is the pastor of a born again Christian church. And he's just sort of pretending it's not happening, I think, and my Nana is it's actually kind of OK. She quite likes my partner. Fun time. So you've had a bit of a support system? Yeah, it was there from the start. Um, my brother, [00:10:00] who? That That's Trans. He's not actually my brother, but he's my cousin all raised together. Um, he was always there for me from the beginning because he came out first as being bisexual, and I think he like he was a lesbian and he went back to being bisexual, and he came out as Trans. So he sort of came out almost adjacent to me because his took such a drawn out process. And it took so much longer to explain to everyone what Trans was that I don't know. It kind of think it distracted from me a little bit, which made it easier because [00:10:30] they would. They weren't scandalised by the fact that I liked girls. They were too busy being like, How does that work? How are you now? Um, they must They must have the gene. Yeah, I actually I'm a firm believer in the queer Jean. Yeah, it's It's pretty pretty obvious in my family. Yeah, positive results. We're just just, you know, getting all in there. Nice. It's nice. Yeah. You've got the Jean Good jeans, blue jeans, blue jeans. No, that would be the pink jeans. Rainbow jeans. Yeah, Rain jeans. [00:11:00] I really hope those don't exist. I. I actually can see myself I. I remember seeing this poster of a sperm. That's, um, rainbow coloured. Not not a real sperm. This is the poster saying the rainbow Jean. That sounds like a really gross way to put it like they could have used a DNA. Was it a helix thing? Was they called DNA The spiral that is a rainbow. That might have been nice. It was a cartoon. It was a proper tali shape. [00:11:30] Gross. I feel like that. So you obviously you've had a few relationships? Um, yes, I've actually been out with more boys than girls. Um, my current partner was female when we met. And, um, 52 years now, and six months ago, he came up to me as friends, so I kind of to stop pretending I was a lesbian and then identify the fact that I actually am transsexual. Because despite the fact he's now male, I'm still very much in love with him and That's really the only relationship worth mentioning, [00:12:00] I believe is the current. We live in the present in the present, and every other relationship has a certain name here. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. So, um, how do you meet other people in the queer community? Um well, when I first came out, well, you know, when I first began the journey of self realisation and I, um, started attending Wacky, I met quite little people in the queer community that I would not have met otherwise. So, um, yeah, probably wacky is a really big one. Now that [00:12:30] I'm over 18, I suppose I meet them and shine the local gay club, turning into an advertising campaign. Come to the local shine gay club. We call it shine because we know that you like to shine, even though mostly it's kind of older men who are probably too busy being like, not sure about you. You're too female for me to pay any attention to. That's that's great. That's really cool. Because if you go to a straight bar, everybody's just grinding up and your girl and he's like, [00:13:00] do you mind straight bars? Actually, Well, I don't really see them as straight bars. They're just sort of clubs that aren't gay clubs. I suppose there are bars I don't normally get hit on. I'm normally with my boyfriend. Anyway, it's usually a pretty good kind of like Don't fucking look at me signal. I think you do the whole, like holding hands like That's right. I think I've made that noise, though. I have my puzzles. [00:13:30] I'm not sure I could do that. It sounds like elbow Kind of Ma ma, ma song. Sorry. That was kind of creepy. I'm the in the class. OK, Um um OK, let's start the interview from here. OK, Where am I? Oh, yeah. So what's your definition of virginity? Virginity? [00:14:00] Um Well, OK. I saw myself as a virgin until the first time anyone did anything to me that involved being below my waist. Pretty much kissing, you know, that's whatever anything that's sort of in that upper region. I don't You know, I would still consider myself a virgin. Had nothing have happened below the waist. That's my That's my theory. So have you ever received any abusive behaviours? [00:14:30] Um, probably mainly at school, but like, it wasn't all that bad it was more the exclusion more than anything like I didn't get things yelled at me or thrown at me like my story is definitely not as graphic as some other ones I've heard. But, um, just things like walking into a classroom and hearing girls across the room going Oh, look, there's that lesbian like things like that more than anything else. Um, did you used to turn around and say, Oh, it yeah, No, because I was too afraid they were going to punch [00:15:00] me. I just sort of sat down and pretend it wasn't happening. And then at lunch time, I would go and sit with my two friends and tell them about it, and I'd be like, Don't worry about it, Don't listen to her. And then someone later told me that I should have just had on them because that would have really freaked them out. And I was like, Oh, who told me that when I was at high school, that would be like a lot more helpful, like I just hold you down like I seriously, I should have done that looking back. But, you know, I think I was a bit too timid, timid. I'm not now, obviously. OK, [00:15:30] well, thank you for the interview. That was That was speed. It was only 16 minutes. Wow. Yeah. Anyway, thank you. Oh, you're very much welcome.

IRN: 630
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_nate.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004003
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089297
TITLE: Nate - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Hamilton; Q12 (series); Rainbow Youth; Waikato Queer Youth; bisexual; coming out; depression; early childhood education; education; family; identity; internet; relationships; school; self harm; self hate; suicide; support; teaching; transgender; transition; youth
DATE: 17 July 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Waikato, Waikato, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Nate talks about being young, transgender and bisexual in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm good. Thank you. That is. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? OK, um, my name is Nate and I am the youth coordinator at Yes, um, also known as wacky. Wacky? Yeah. Um, I started coming as a youth member to wacky, uh, about two years ago before I was in a staff position. Um, when I had just, um, come out to all my friends and stuff as Trans. So it was a big support for me. [00:00:30] Um, I'm also an early childhood teacher, and that's about it. So you're from Hamilton from Hamilton? Have you always been from Hamilton? Yeah. Born in Hamilton. So you're a proper Hamilton person Proper. Never moved outside of Hamilton. So it's like the big barriers. I shall not leave this place. The dome, the dome. But it is a dome. Really? Because there's like hills surrounding us, isn't it? Apart from the lakes and the river [00:01:00] and the bridges bridges follow the river. Follow the river to get out of here, follow the river and return again. Go to lake. Yeah. So, um what is so How old are you? I am 24. 24. Yes. Finally. Someone that's older than me. Um, what is your gender identity? Um, male. Male. Is that, um your [00:01:30] sex sex gender as well? No. No. And what is your I am bisexual. Bisexual. And what's your cultural identity? Um, Kiwi. And what is your gender Gender expression? Uh, pretty. Um, it depends on the day. Um, I present [00:02:00] mainly masculine in a slightly camp way sometimes. So this guy wake up and say hello. My name is Nate. Yes, it is. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Just have their foot stomping and the other one skipping. Done. Done. It was like I'm gonna wear all black in my metallics and then something that was like, I'm gonna get a sparkles with a tutu. Yes, yes. The two tree sparkles that even a tutu to work. [00:02:30] So, um so when did you realise that you were, um, transgender? Um I've always known it was something slightly obscure about myself, but I, I only found the word that kind of clicked in to everything when I was about 16 and then continued to deny it until I was, like, 19. Yeah. So how about, um when did you realise that you were by, [00:03:00] um, really early. Like I kind of discovered I liked, um, both genders when I was about 10. You know where you go through that? I'm an old hand stage. I was holding everyone's hand. I was the bridge between the groups. It was like, bring everybody together. Yeah. Don't touch me. You got you got girls. Wait, wait. Did you hang on? Did [00:03:30] you do the whole boat thing, didn't you? Oh, you got G like you are a girl. No, no, I'm not. She was like, Wait, am I? Damn, That doesn't make sense. That makes sense whatsoever. There's a pink tag that just came out of nowhere. The return of the wacky pass. The return of the wacky password. Fun. Oh, yes. Um, So how did you feel when you realised you were a boy? [00:04:00] Um, yeah. Confused. Like I felt really weird. Especially at a young age. Yeah, I was like, I think it is just like one. I'll just roll with it. It wasn't until, like, I think, the end of middle school. Then it started to become apparent that it wasn't actually OK in most people's terms, like, hey, you can't do that. Even though at league, because you're allowed in those times. This is like when I'm, like, under 14. So [00:04:30] it was just like, you know, the nineties, the nineties, one of the good old nineties. The and, um, when How did you feel when you realised that you were a train? Um, horrible II. I I did a lot of, um, self hate in regards to that. Like, Oh, you know, you're a freak. It can't be like this. It's not true. Blah, blah, blah. No one's like this in the world. You're just a weirdo, blah, [00:05:00] blah, blah. Um, it took a long time to come to terms with it within myself. How did you, um, accepted it, or how did you feel when you accepted it? Um, I basically was going through a huge spell of depression and was like, Well, I can't be like this, so I'm just going to kill myself, and then that didn't work. And I kind of came out the other side saying, OK, I've got to embrace this where my life is just gonna be nothing. So it was just kind of like a get over it and embrace yourself kind of moment, [00:05:30] and it was really freeing, but still kind of isolating. Did you find someone to help you with support or anything? Um, the first person in my family that I came out to was, um, my sister, Alex. And, um, I basically just started dressing like, binding. And then just because we had real movie dates because we didn't see each other often. And I just started dressing, um, as male and binding and stuff, and she just she was like, Oh, what's your name then? And then that's that [00:06:00] was me coming out to her basically. And then from there, she's just been a constant support, which is awesome. So do you keep in contact with her? She comes. She'll be here later. She's one of these mentors. And, um how, um when did you How did you feel when you, um when did you accepted that you were a boy? Um, high school. High school? Yeah. Although I, I wasn't very vocal about the [00:06:30] lack of the girl bits, but I I it was still knowing, you know? And I was still ok with it. I was like, Yeah, when did you come out? um, the end of high school, Like the last year that I was in high school because, you know, I wanted to date people, so I had to tell them. So have you been fully transitioned? And what do you mean, like Yeah, because that's a really That's a That's a broad question. Um, no, [00:07:00] I am currently on hormones and waiting for etcetera. When do you know? When you get to the surgery? Um, top surgery. I'm on a six month waiting list, and then it depends At the end of the six month waiting list, they either bump you off and start you again. Or if you actually get what you need, it's a It's a loophole. A big, complicated thing. Public health service. Um, do you have to pay for [00:07:30] that? Um, if you get it like the bare minimum chance that it gets funded. Um, the only thing you have to pay is a private consultant consultant fee. Um, but most likely, yes, I have to pay for it. Yeah. So what is the average for, um, for that, um, cost in New Zealand, it's anywhere between 16 to 60,000. Um, in America, it's, um [00:08:00] between 40,000. And in Thailand, it's average between, um 9000 NZ dollars and $13,000. So you've done your research? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've lived in. So you go and do it in New Zealand or, um, no, probably in either, um San Francisco or Thailand, Like a little bit exotic [00:08:30] and cheaper and cheaper when you're adding up like hotels and flights and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Is that all included as well, um, only in Thailand, only in Thailand. Oh, that's quite cheap. Yeah, it is. It's ridiculously cheap. I wonder why this makes you feel a bit like wonder, but at the same time. But then at the same, it's like, No, it's cheaper. So when you first, [00:09:00] um, accepted, um, your sexuality as being Why did you ever feel that you had to keep it a secret? Um, no, I've always been pretty open about it, But once that I was past that point of Oh, like I don't go to someone and say hi, I'm Nate. I'm bisexual. And Trans, it's like stuff like that. But like I'm not, if someone asks me or if it comes up about relationships. I'm just tell them the truth about you being Trans. [00:09:30] This came out. Yeah, I was just, you know, not hide it. Um, even with the kids at work, um, which was I was real nervous about at first. But, you know, sometimes they still ask me you were a girl. Yes. When you first started it were you, um were you going through transitioning Or when I first started work? Nope. Uh, I I started, um, where I work currently? I. I started [00:10:00] work there when I was just leaving high school. So, um, I've been there about six years. So So I came out in a month working man, which was a bit rocky in a way. A little. Yeah, actually, I was more worried about how people reacted than they actually reacted. So because at a young age, they don't react or anything. They'll be like, Oh, I have a foot. Yeah. Yeah. Ask you five questions about it and then forget about it. Yeah, And then come back five minutes later. Yeah, basically, Yeah. So you've [00:10:30] had a Do you have a support system there with work or with, um, with your sexuality? and Trans. Yeah, um, is a huge and my family has been amazing. And like rainbow youth, did Ra youth help? Um, Tommy meeting Tommy was awesome. Um, I've met him through a Trans one on one workshop, which was ah, for Hamilton. Like that was like, it blew my mind like, because that was, like, the second time that I've ever heard anyone say [00:11:00] the words like transgender and stuff like that. And, um, I took my well, my mom took me along, and, um, that was like the information from that was just amazing. Like, Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so you got Is there going to be a group that's going to be set up for created for trans? For the trans community? Yes. Um, there is, um, with wacky we're currently working on, um, a transgender. Um, like, just meet up like that happen because, um, at the moment, it's kind of a gap [00:11:30] between, um, younger generation and the older generation of trans people which, um, a gender and that I cover and stuff, but so we're looking to fill the gap because I know what it's like to not have that kind of people. You can relate to, and it's kind of scary. So what's it like working with wacky? Awesome. It's like one of my passions. Basically, um, occasionally you get the little ones just running around and yeah, yeah, as you can probably hear through the door. [00:12:00] Oh, it's gone. Quiet. Maybe I can hear. That's for real. Yeah. So, marshmallows, Yes. Marshmallows? No. That's the first thing that came to my mind. Um, so your family relationships? Yes. Yes. So would you like to tell us about your relationships? In what sense? Well, how they, um, how being trans affected them or [00:12:30] you've been coming out affected them in any way. Um, I was only out into my relationships as Trans. Um, because I've only had two actual long term relationships like that was kind of like a couple of months. Yeah. You basically just the water on the side. You actually like what you you know, um, compatible. Do they know now? Um, yeah, yeah. I mean, [00:13:00] yeah, um and we're still friends I'm still friends with. So, um, which is cool, but yeah. So how about so? Did they were they all fine with you being trans in Both, Um by yet No one cared about that. Um, the trend thing was slightly I. I think, um, it was hard to understand. Like, it was like a concept that no one had, actually, you know, come across. When was this? Um, the first time [00:13:30] I came out in a relationship was when I was 19. Um, it was my long term boyfriend who had been going out for, like, two years, so that was kind of big, Like he always knew that I was just kind of slightly tomboyish and stuff like that, but yeah. And how about the other one? Um, that was Anita. And I was laughing at the my voice when I said that, um, she met me when I was, um, out and at, So Yeah. So, um, [00:14:00] how do you meet other people? And like, um, in the trans community? Oh, mostly Facebook. Is it, like Facebook groups for them and stuff? Do they come to you asking for advice and stuff? Yeah, I get quite a lot of that. And, um, since I've been out at, there's actually been a lot of other people who have come out as Trans, which was quite interesting. Just, um, the dynamics of the group changing and stuff like that Has it, um, increase the group's population? [00:14:30] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, So what is your definition of virginity? Uh um, that's, like a random impression change. OK, Um, no, it's just that, um, everybody has a different definition, so I always thought it would be relevant to that at the same time. It's not, um I suppose you can have, like, your boy virgin. There's the first, like sexual the first time we have sex. [00:15:00] But then I guess as well as the first time we have sex with the opposite of sex, which is you go cherry or whatever. Yeah. So, um, have you ever received any abuse? Um, actually, no. No. Maybe like a drunken verbal abuse, but no. Nothing. Do you have anything else to say? No. No. Thank you for the interview. Thank [00:15:30] you.

IRN: 629
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_billie.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004002
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089296
TITLE: Billie - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Hamilton; Q12 (series); South Africa; Starbucks Hamilton; Waikato; Waikato Queer Youth; coming out; death; education; feminism; lesbian; parents; relationships; spirituality; support; women; youth
DATE: 17 July 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Waikato, Waikato, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Billie talks about being young and lesbian in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm very well, Thank you. What's your name? Um, Billy. Is that your real name? No, it's not. It's a name I prefer. Prefer? Yes. Yes. So can you tell us about yourself? Um, I was born in Cape Town, South Africa. I've only been in New Zealand for three years now. I plan to stay for about three more years because I want to, um, get a degree, a graphic design degree. And, um, from there, go to Japan and teach English for [00:00:30] a bit. Yeah, that's I think that's me so far. So you live in Hamilton? Yes. Yes. I kind of live in Hamilton the whole three years. Um, no. I spent my first year in a bit in Auckland, and then we moved here. I think maybe two years or so ago. Yeah. I love Hamilton. Yeah, Yeah. You like Hamilton by hills and they have a river. Yeah. Yeah, I think like I find quite perfect. Like it's not too big and it's not too small. It's just [00:01:00] right. And really nice. This one is too big. This one is too fair. This one's too soft. This one's too small This one's all just right. Not where you got the hair. Oh, true. True. It's the one side. I'm half gold Lots. There we go. So, um, how old are you? I'm 18. 18? Yes. Um, what is your gender identity? [00:01:30] Female. I'm a feminine lesbian. So that's how you express? Um, yeah, yeah, because, I mean, you get masculine lesbians who I think are called dikes or something. I'm not too sure if it's an offensive term, but there's just something going. Oh, it's like us when we like to call ourselves fakes or we like to call ourselves queers. But when someone else says it, how dare they come? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like you can't call someone a nigger if you If you're white, you know, you gotta be nigger to call a nigger nigger. [00:02:00] OK, now we're just getting confused. So what is your sexual? Oh, yeah, Lesbian. Yeah, yeah, lesbian. Um, when did you realise, um, from a wee age, I always knew that I had some attraction to women because, um, I just I've summed it up as my appreciation for women. Like I've always loved being surrounded with women. I was always [00:02:30] around beautiful women. I was brought up by a single mom. My mom is everything to me. And not only my mom. Like my grandma, I've never, never had a masculine figure in my life. And it's my life's turned out pretty OK so far, you know, here in Hamilton? Yeah. Here in Hamilton. Yeah, but, um yeah, II. I honestly, I love women. I. I appreciate them more than the average person would. You know, it's It's an appreciation far beyond sexuality. It's not I'm [00:03:00] not a lesbian, because I, I appreciate a woman. You know, I'm a lesbian because it's partly who I am, but I've always known from a young age that, you know, I was different. Different? That's the name. Yeah. Yeah. It's all, um, is who you're attracted to. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, like when we younger we experiment with, you know, with people. And I've always enjoyed being with women. You don't have to go on. [00:03:30] I was like, what else do I say? Shit. Did I really say that? Same thing incriminating, but yeah. I mean, did you accept that you're, um, that you're a lesbian? Um, did you actually have a little stage where you were denying it for a little bit, and then you accepted it. Yeah, well, I suppose I could sort of say yes, but I never denied being attracted to women. It's not something I wasn't proud of. I was quite proud of [00:04:00] who I am, and you know what and how I've become. But, um, there was a stage where I thought because I mean, in society today, we're told that being a homosexual is a bad thing. You know, it's not a bad thing. It's not right. It's not normal. And yes, there was times where, you know, I met a few guys and, um, I think some sort of relationship or something. But it's I was never really there. I always felt that, you know, I was wasting my time Firstly, and they were wasting their time, you know? How did I make [00:04:30] them think that I was head of the hills, like in love with them? When really, I wasn't I was just trying to, you know, fit in and find find some sort of bearing. Yeah, but, um, everything happened at quite a young age for me. I grew up really, really fast so yeah. Yeah. So I think in today's society, people are more open about sexuality than they used to be. Yeah, I'm glad. So too. I mean, I don't see why I have to hide my identity for anybody you know, if you come up to me and introduce me and say, Oh, hi, I'm so and [00:05:00] so Then I could be like, Yeah, I'm Sinead or whatever. Billy and I and I'm a lesbian. I'm a proud lesbian. I love being proud. I'm proud of who I am and where I've come from, you know? And everything I've done in my life Yeah, I think, like, five years ago, there was a small toleration these days that are like, yay gay people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's changed, like, even in, like, back in the day, too. Where women had many more rights. Now, today, you know, women have sort of started, you know, they stood up, stand up and standing [00:05:30] up, for they stood up for themselves, and they presented themselves as a proud, feminine woman who is capable of doing so much more. You know, I, I wouldn't say we're equal to, you know, men. But we are capable of doing our own thing and being independent, too. We don't need to depend on, you know, a man. Yeah. So, um, have you ever fought there to keep your sexuality a secret from other people? Um, were you just very open about [00:06:00] it? I'm very open about it. But I am aware that it could make some people feel uncomfortable. Like I'm not a religious person, but I am quite spiritual. So I do go to churches. I can go to any holy sanction and just feel at peace. But I do know that at some churches won't openly say that I'm a lesbian. But if I was asked, I would say yes, I am. I'm gay, and that's it. And people are shocked, and they sort of get over it eventually because there's nothing they can do about it. You know? They can't pray it out of me. They can't, [00:06:30] you know, beat it out of me. They can't call me names and expect me to, you know, be straight after that. So, yeah. So, um, so you're not So you never really were in the closet, weren't you? No. There was no closet for me to step out of the closet is just where clothes are. My imagination, like the closet is something we've created for ourselves. And we come up well, we we come up with the stories like, Oh, this is how I came out the closet, you know? [00:07:00] But I've never I don't always see the need for a closet. You know, maybe there is a point in your life where you're uncertain of your sexual identity. But then you discover it after and then you just embrace it for what it is. Not like stepping out is not a big deal for me. I mean, I've met heaps of queer people who still would still be in the closet. But it's just that they respect their personal life and they keep their personal life private from everybody else. Go visit other people's closets like, Hey, what's in your closet [00:07:30] closet? It's quite comfy in here. You've got the whole couch, the TV. Why is he glitter on the wall? That'd be your closet. No closet. What closet? Yeah, yeah, the closet. I can't even fit in my closet anymore. I've outgrown my closet. Wow. Yeah. You had a closet, then I'm too shiny to be in the closet. I'm too fabulous. Yeah. [00:08:00] Where was I? So, um, So people come to do they come out to you? Um, yes. Yes. I've had two mates so far that have come out to me. And it's just amazing to see how much they've grown to and how how they've established. Um, the identity, too, with, you know, coming out firstly and then everything else after, because, I mean, there are people who are still in the closet, and they [00:08:30] feel that they have to pretend they're someone they're not. And I just think it's unfair because we were granted free will. And with free will, we're entitled to express ourselves in whatever manner we feel. Need Yeah, express your ma. So you've had a Do you have a bit of a support system? Um What, for myself? Yeah. Um, yeah, Well, I, I am my own support person. You know, I haven't, [00:09:00] um, had the need to talk to or rely on other people because, I mean, I've lost heaps of people in my life, and losing people from a young age sort of makes you depend on yourself in a way and it's not always easy, but I sort of overcome my battles by just being me and understanding that I am the way I am and that I can get through this, you know, without involving anybody else. Yeah, but I suppose my mum would be my support person. But [00:09:30] our relationship after her husband has been a bit tense, you know? So Mum and I aren't as close as we were six years ago. Yeah, but I suppose in a sense, maybe she'd been my support person when sexuality was still tolerated. Yeah. Yeah. Gosh. Like because, um my dad died when I was two years old, and all I ever had is my mum for about 12 years until she remarried. And, um, that was insane for me. I couldn't understand it because I'm [00:10:00] a very selfish person. And I didn't see why I had to share my mum with this man I can't tolerate, you know. And, you know, it wasn't only that I couldn't personally tolerate him, is that he didn't treat mum the way she she deserved to be treated. And I just thought it was so wrong for her to go through all that you know, and it it just like it broke up our relationship, and we drifted apart. But now that he's sort of out of the picture, we sort of grown back together again. But there's still that friction, you know. There's missing years. Yeah, Yeah, that still sort of impact our relationship at the moment. [00:10:30] Yeah. How was her reaction when you came when you told her? Well, she she sort of understood it. But in mum's head, she thinks it's a phase. And I understand why she thinks so. Because, I mean, she was my age and younger. She went through the same phase herself. And, you know, she settled down with a man who she loved. And she probably thinks that in her little mind that that would happen to me too, you know, And I mean, I don't hate her for thinking that way. You know, we we are entitled to our own opinions, [00:11:00] and that's just mum's opinion. But she, um she doesn't scrutinise me or she's not angry at me for being who I am. She she's brought me up the way I am today, you know, expressing who I am and my identity. Yeah, So, um, have you ever been in a relationship before? Yes, I have. Yeah. You wanna tell us about your relationship? Um, well, there was a point where I [00:11:30] was dating guys, and all that was quite dysfunctional because it didn't end too well, you know, they ended up hating me, because, um, I just wasn't me. Like I can't pretend I'm someone I know. I find it very difficult. And maybe in the beginning, I thought I did like you very much. And then I came to my senses and I thought to myself like, I don't like, What am I doing wasting my time, like in your time? Yeah, but like with, um, with girls I've been with it's been quite different, like all my ex girlfriends and I were friends, which is a good thing because none of [00:12:00] my ex-boyfriends and I are friends like they can't stand me, man. But, um, relationships for me personally is quite hard, because I I I'll class myself as a commitment phobe like, I find it really difficult to commit to someone. I think it's also because it's my my ego, in a sense, too, Like, I believe that I can do everything by myself. And I'm a strong and independent woman. And that sort of interferes when you when you you want to not settle down. But when you share your life with someone is, you know, being in [00:12:30] a relationship because that person wants to be a part of you, and you kind of grow together. But, um, yeah, my relationships were interesting, but last very long. No, I have a habit of, um I love that word. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because, I mean, they were beautiful, and there was times where weren't so beautiful, but, yeah, they were interesting. Yeah, sometimes interesting isn't always a good word, you know, But it's sort of like, you know, like sums up most of [00:13:00] what it was. Yeah. So, um, what is your definition of virginity? My definition of virginity would be purity. You know, like, um, I know in some cases, some people's virginity is taken from them, and I believe that if it was taken from you without your consent, that you can get it back, you know, because you're still pure in your heart. And if you know, but for me, like if virginity [00:13:30] was something I could see it would be the sky because it's so pure and so beautiful and out of control. You know, it's like we can't control it. And neither can we have virginity because we can't keep it forever. Oh, well, some people will try and keep it forever, but, um, it's just a lot of people believe that. Yeah, no, no, they don't. But I think it's because they misunderstood the whole form of virginity. You [00:14:00] know, it is your innocence and your purity. It was the beginning of your life matter, you know? So, yeah, I think that would be my definition of virginity that random things happening outside. So how do you meet other people? Um, I'm a very outgoing person. I'm an extrovert. So I find it real easy to meet people. If it was just walking down the street and saying hi to someone or, you know, sitting in Starbucks and just meeting someone random, you know, and just talking [00:14:30] to them. Yeah, because I believe sometimes that, um, you know, we all have our down moments and just being polite to someone, like smiling at them or saying hi sort of brightens their day and it makes like it sort of makes me feel good too. Just being nice to someone for no reason. You don't have to have a reason for good. You know, you can just do it because you want to. Yeah, I first that Starbucks is the place to go for the queer community in Hamilton. Yes, I'm not too sure about anywhere else but Hamilton, definitely. Like after group, [00:15:00] we just head off to Starbucks at the end. Chill. Um, maybe we may go tonight. Yeah, but we usually like sometimes we go on Wednesdays, too. And then after Starbucks, we go shoot some pool, but yeah, it's it's it's good that we can go out there and still be together and still be a community, because heaps of the time, we just or you find gay groups that are just, you know, out in their little group environment. And as soon as they go out, they just stay out. Yeah. Yeah, and [00:15:30] it's like it can be OK, like pretty much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I even understand that being a youth work too. If I see a group member, I can't just blatantly be like, Hey, are you coming in a group today. And if they're with their friends and they're not out, you know, they might I. I didn't want to out anyone. I feel it's wrong. If you want to come out and express your sexuality, then you should do that. You should be the person to do that. Nobody else. So have you received any abuse or abusive behaviour? [00:16:00] No. Like, I wouldn't class it as abuse. But I do get the odd occasion where we asked, like really weird questions, especially about, like, you know, in the bedroom. And, um yeah, yeah, honestly, Like, I just walked out of wacky this once and well, the footpath is really narrow. And, um, I stopped because I saw this man and then he stopped because he saw me. And then he's like, No, no, you walk. And I was like, No, no, no, You go and then we end up walking together, and we walked together for I think about, like, maybe close to 20 minutes, and we were just We just started talking randomly, [00:16:30] and then he asked me where I came from, and I was like, Oh, just like, um group. And he was like, Oh, what is it? I was like, Oh, it's a gay group where gay people get together and socialise and what not? And he was like, Oh, that's cool. And he's like, I've never met a gay person before And I was like, Oh, first time for everything And, um, he asked me like What is it like being gay? And then he asked me something Really on the lines of, um, do gay people straight People have the same organs. And I was like, Well, besides our genitalia, Yes, you know, we pretty much are the same. It's just how [00:17:00] how we love and who we love, you know. But I like even at school, I've been bombarded with girls, but I wasn't intimidated by it because they asked me all these questions. And I know that they may not ever find another gay person who's as open as I am to actually answer their questions because they could come up with all sorts of assumptions and make fun of queer people where we're not here. We're not here as a joke, you know, And um, I think Al, I don't know, like people are different, [00:17:30] but I think like open minded queer people and extroverts. We should actually be open enough to talk about our sexuality and our community because there's a whole other world out there and they don't know much about us, you know? And it's good to just kind of get it out, answer these silly questions. And if you like, there were times where I felt really uncomfortable. And I just say, You know what? I don't feel too comfortable answering this, But if you have another question just like, shouldn't ask me. Yeah, well, thank you for the interview. Oh, you're welcome. Any time.

IRN: 628
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_dylan.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004001
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089295
TITLE: Dylan - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Hamilton; Q12 (series); STI; Shine nightclub; Starbucks Hamilton; Waikato; Wellington; abuse; alcohol and drug abuse; coming out; divorce; family; friends; gay; homophobia; relationships; safe sex; sex; venues; youth
DATE: 16 July 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Waikato, Waikato, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Dylan talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So can you tell us a little bit about yourself? I'm a hairdresser. I 19. Um gay. Do you like music? I like music. What type of music? Lady Gaga, Micky Little Wayne Little way and movies. Have you seen that already? So how's your social life? It's pretty well go out when I can. [00:00:30] You go out when you can. You go out to shine. It's good. Is it fun? It is fun. Yeah. Do you have a little bit of a take along person with you? Yes, I do. Is he sitting in the corner with you right now? Yes. He's sitting in the corner. Yeah. Is he hugging himself like a little teddy bear? Yes, he is sometimes. So you're 1919? And you're a male male? No. [00:01:00] How do you express yourself? How do I express myself? Masculine, Feminine. Both both masculine and feminine. Yes. Yes. OK. Um when? So you're gay. True? Yes. When did you realise? Third time, 13. 13. So what was happening around that time when you were 13? Experimenting with who? People. People [00:01:30] not mention any names? No cookies, Cookies, donkeys. Ok, ignore the strange person that's hanging himself in the corner of a person. So you're experimenting. Did you accept your sexuality? Um, around that time, Not at that time. I did it when I was a little bit older. Did you think it was just a phase that you were going through? [00:02:00] Obviously, it wasn't No. What a strange face that would be. Yeah, as he nods away. So, um, so when you're going through these experimenting or these thoughts or these feelings did you ever thought Hey, this is new. Maybe I should keep this a secret, just in case people might discriminate of some sort. Yes, I did. For a long period of time until I actually came out. When [00:02:30] did you come out? About 16. And when did you accept it? Then the same time as you come out. So a bit of a break. About three years. So what was going through your head during that three years? Um, people would accept me for who I am. What was going through your head when you came out? How do I tell people? [00:03:00] How so? How about your friends? How do they react? I'm like, Oh, my God. You're going like Oh, my God. Let's go to the mall and put on makeup and ouch. Slap my hand against the wall. Um, how about your parents? They were pretty accepted. How about the cousin that's hugging himself in the corner? Yes. How? How did you feel? [00:03:30] Well, it was obvious at the age of, like, seven, he was always the dresses. Nicely, I guess. And then, uh then, like, 15. I saw him when he was 15, and he still dressed like that. And I was like, He has to be gay. He's gotta be gay. And then, yeah, he just told me. And I said, I know. And he goes, uh, how do you know it? It just came out recently, and it's just obvious, man. [00:04:00] Quite funny. That does actually sound like you. That and now you're going to be the guy hugging yourself in the corner. Pretty much so, um, in a way, did you actually felt that you had to keep it a secret before you came out? Yeah. Kind of. A few people. Like who? Some are very old mates. Um, [00:04:30] because they went really there. They didn't really accept that. But now they do, but yeah. So, um, when you came out. Did any other people actually felt like they had to? Um Did they realise that they were coming out as well? Or they were not at the time. No, not at the time. No, no, there was there were a couple, but But not till later on. Later on in life, I should say, [00:05:00] Yeah. So what has changed since then? I'm not open with myself. Um um, a lot's changed. Um, friends have have more friends or friends have stayed you. I've noticed you've moved around a lot as well. Yes, I've moved a lot. Would you like to elaborate? [00:05:30] Um, when I was, how old was I? I was Would have been Seven parents got a divorce, went through hell, Um, moving from Hamilton Termino and then to Auckland and Wellington and back to Hamilton, back to Wellington, Back to Hamilton. It was kind of a a big tennis match. And one point, [00:06:00] Australia and Australia. I was the ex partner, alcoholic, alcoholic. So you've had a lot of support from your friends. And obviously your family says the cousin in the corner. Yeah, yeah. Oh, there'll be no Oh, cousin le Love [00:06:30] cousin in love always forever. So, um, so you've been in a lot of relationships? Yes. Would you like to elaborate? Um um um Mhm. I wouldn't want to remember. I don't go through that [00:07:00] stuff again. I wouldn't I wouldn't want to go through the stuff of being through, like, talk about and stuff like that. Do you have a number of how many relationships you've been in? It just goes a lot. A lot. Do you know? All right. Um, so has your life, um, affected your relationships in any way? Yes. How about [00:07:30] your sexuality With coming out being open at the age of 16? Yes. And when was your first relationship? The day you came out. That, um, would have been around about 14. My first official relationship. Yeah, that was back in here in high school. Yes. [00:08:00] Yes. The good old days. The good old good old days. You want to tell us about that relationship or not? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. So how do you meet each other? People in the community. Um, go out, Have a drink. I've also noticed that, um [00:08:30] in Hamilton, every all the gay people go to Starbucks? Yes, they do. They coffee. Coffee hoos. Do you go there? No, I don't like coffee. No, he doesn't like coffee. Apparently, I love coffee, So, yeah, you go to, um, Starbucks? Is that like, their little unofficial youth gay group? In a way, love to catch up. Um, chill. Have a coffee. [00:09:00] Have you ever went to any of the LGBT groups or anywhere in the country? Not at this previous moment. No. How about in the past? No, no, not Rainbow Wacky schools out in Wellington. No, no, no. You had to think about it. Have I said no? No, I. I do have a lot of [00:09:30] friends in the LGBTI Q. I think so. You think so? Talk. I don't know if anyone actually goes to these kind of meetings and stuff. I mean, like, I mean, in general, do you have a lot of gay friends? Yes. Pipes, pipes. It's like the big group. Big group. Yeah. So, um, you go to shine often when I can. When I can. When you can. When I can. [00:10:00] When you can. Do you see a lot of the same face over and over and over. again. I Is there much of a, um, crowd to hear when you do you think about, um, sometimes, depending on what day it is. And if there's a show. Show you. Do you, um, do people always go for the same person every time they go there or try to change or anything like [00:10:30] that? They're all the same. They they always go to the same person. Yeah, like I'm gonna go to shine. Oh, it's all the same faces. Oh, OK. I'll just sleep with you and see if there's a fun And people come out from the mountain and that kind of stuff where someone's new, they always pronounce the new fresh meat car, though. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, obviously Hamilton has a chlamydia. [00:11:00] Has a has a reputation. What, New Zealand? No, I don't know. I've heard the highest second highest, either. So, um, is that is that a rumour or a fact that it's the highest or second highest chlamydia in New Zealand? I would not know. Do you have No, No, I don't. No, I'm very safe. That's a good [00:11:30] boy. He's safe. Very safe. Very safe. Sorry. I'm just chewing on this biscuit. he's very safe with a biscuit. Yes, he's chewing on the biscuit Hush in the corner, Quiet in the cheap seats. Fun times. OK, so, um, here's a really difficult question. What is your definition of virginity? My Oh, my God. Um, [00:12:00] do do you have a definition? It's just good to have sex. What do you think? I think it's just you have sex for the first time Actual sex for the first time. This is just What is that? How about you? Do you agree You disagree or you have your own thoughts, your own twists? Um, you're in playtime, [00:12:30] um, playing around Well, a lot of people think that I reckon it should be something special. A lot of people think that virginity is different layers of what virginity is like. Some people think that your first time that you should have if you even lose your virginity, that it should be special with someone that you care about. Mhm. OK, what do you think [00:13:00] about what he just said? No, he's right. It's jolly good. So, um, have you received or experienced any abuse or abusive behaviour in the past because of your sexuality or any other reason, I guess. Would you like to elaborate? Are you sure? Positive. Positive as the finger gets flipped. Um, excuse [00:13:30] me. I'm coughing. So, um, how how many people do you think there is in the gay scene in Hamilton? Quite a handful. Handful, Handful. Not more than a handful of, um do you want, like, a number or your average thought? Hm. There's a few. There's plenty. There's plenty Come to Hamilton [00:14:00] and time. So how about in Wellington? Because you go to Wellington often a way. Um, yes, a handful. It a handful hands. A very, very big handful. So our Wellington Hamilton and Auckland And where whereabouts were you in Australia? Melbourne, Melbourne, Victoria, [00:14:30] Melbourne Place thing Melbourne Victoria of some sorts of across the ditch of the Tasman. Um, what's your favourite area or community? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Favourite thing about Melbourne or how your favourite community community, gay community or area. I didn't really experience any gay community over over there. How about in Auckland? What's your favourite? If you wanted to be in any of those four areas, [00:15:00] where would you want to be? Oh, it's a tricky question. Not to be in all of them. So to fly a private jet fly over each area. Um uh, you don't know. I don't know. I love them all. You love them. More reasons. Linda. How about Auckland? What's your favourite part about [00:15:30] Auckland? Um, they would have to be the life style. How about Hamilton? Um, it's quiet here, and it's Yeah. How about Wellington? Is [00:16:00] a big, big, big story. Just the past memories from past memories. Well, thank you for the interview. You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you. For the person that's hiding in the corner that keeps on hugging himself is.

IRN: 627
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_name_withheld_7.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004000
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089294
TITLE: [name withheld 7] - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Hamilton; Q12 (series); STI; Shine nightclub; Starbucks Hamilton; Waikato; abuse; family; friends; gay; internet; parents; pets; public affection; regions; relationships; safe sex; school; sex; single sex schools; social; social media; support; twitter. com; youth
DATE: 16 July 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Waikato, Waikato, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast [name withheld] talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm good. Thanks. That is good. How old are you? I'm 20. OK. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? I work in a supermarket. Live in Hamilton. That's it. Really? You like music? Yeah. I like pop music. I like Lady Gaga. Yeah. What do you like to do in your spare time? I just like to hang out with mates and drink coffee. Is that where's the usual [00:00:30] area That you like to hang out? Usually Starbucks with all the rest of the gas in Hamilton. So that's where they go. Starbucks? Is that the usual gay gay area? Yep. Is was there another area at any point? Not really. There's no real place for guys to hang out in Hamilton. Apart from the shine shine, they only gave her bar in Hamilton. Yep. That's it. Fun times. Do [00:01:00] you go there often? Usually. Um, every Saturday night when I go out, I'll stop on the show. See some friends. It used to be only a one night a week thing, wasn't it? It did, but it's open Thursdays, Fridays and Saturday nights. Now why do you think of that? I think it's become more popular. There's a lot more open gay in Hamilton and a lot more, um, by and transgender lesbians and all that as well. And there's also a lot of straight people that hang out [00:01:30] there too, which is pretty fun. Hamilton has become more accepting, I think. Finally. Yeah. So, um, how about the Do you go to the youth group here Often? I have never been to the youth group, but I've heard about it. It's not really my style of things, but I have a few friends that go to it. Not your scene. Not really, No. So, um, what's your gender identity? My gender identity? Well, I'm a gay male. [00:02:00] Gay male. How do you express yourself? I don't feel the need to express myself. Really? So it's casually just It's just who I am. I'm gay. I'm proud. I'm happy, right? Oh, so, um, when did you first realise that you were gay? Um, probably around, like, 15. 16. Sort of when I sort of started to notice I was attracted to guys. Yeah. So, [00:02:30] in high school, Yeah, in high school, Pretty much. Yeah. And an all boys school in high school. That probably puts a dot on things. Yeah. So, um, did you ever had to feel like you had to keep it a secret for everybody? Not really. No, I wasn't as open as I am now, But I wasn't, like, fully closeted, like my friends, you and family. So, yeah, I've been out since I pretty much realised [00:03:00] that's it. Really? Did you have, like, some sort of feelings in class or something? Not really, No. I was attracted to a few of my classmates, but didn't do anything about it, you know? Did you ever thought that they were or not? Really, just They were classmates, and that was it, Really? Right. So, um, so did you ever thought that you had to keep like, [00:03:30] Oh, wow, this is different or something like that. Did you feel like it was a little bit different than usual? Or a little bit at high school? But once I left high school, not at all. It was like, Oh, OK. I'm normal. Yeah, pretty much so. Um what? How did people react when you first told them? Um, my dad doesn't like that I'm gay. He still doesn't. But [00:04:00] that's just who he is, I guess. Is he more open to the idea now? Since it's been a few years since he's processed it. Yeah, he is. He is a bit more, but he doesn't talk about it. Not at all. It's like the, um, taboo taboo. Pretty much taboo subject. Yeah, my mom's all good with it. She's happy. And my friends are my friends, so, yeah. Um, So, um, how long did it take for you? Before [00:04:30] you realised for you to come out around 16, I think. I mean, like, was it like, did it take, like, a few weeks before you're like, Oh, I'm not sure. Um, yeah, probably. Like a couple of months after I started realising I liked guys and then sort of accepting the fact and all that and sort of telling everyone so, Yeah, there's generally a bit of a process before realising and accepting. [00:05:00] Yeah. How long was that process for you? I'm not really sure. Yes. Work out one. It wasn't one of those. Or was it was it? One day I was like, Oh, I have a erection over that guy in this class. It could have been I can't really remember. It was just one of those situations. Like Oh, OK. Yeah, I think it was. Yeah. OK, so how about what's your relationships, Like [00:05:30] my relationships? Um, I've been in a few relationships. Um, would you like to explain your current? No, not like to my current relationship veto on the current relationship. So, um, you get a lot of support when you came out? Yeah. My friends really supported me. My family? Not as much. [00:06:00] Oh, straight away. At least not straight away. They did eventually. How about your distant family members? I didn't see my distance. Family members very often. So do they know They do. And they seem to be all right with it. I've introduced him to to one of my boyfriends before. Mm. So it's just all happy family almost most of the time. Happy family here. Did you ever had to, like, practise on your coming [00:06:30] coming out to, like any animals or anything like that? No, I just sort of thought it through my head and then said it. So do you have any pets? I used to have a dog, but she died like, two months ago. It was really sad. Try to check on the dog death. Yeah, I've actually found out that some people actually like to come out to their animals before, um, before [00:07:00] telling people, that's kind of weird. I don't Wouldn't really talk to my pets. Like in that sort of way apart from Oh, you're so cut the F. I have to tell you this I'm gay. Well, right, right. Well, the grandparents will think right. Well, will my kit in the sink. You're no owner of mine. So you're not like [00:07:30] that? Not at all. No. Yeah. So, um, you being out in Had you been out ever affected your relationship or how you realised you affected your relationships? In the past, I've dated a few guys who weren't out, and that was a really weird experience because he didn't like to hold hands or kiss in public, which I'd like to do [00:08:00] so. That was kind of a bit different. It was always, like a certain awkward situation, one after another, pretty much especially when we went out for dinner or to a movie or something. Yeah, which in the movies, everything goes dark, then everything's fine until just unless an usher walk past or something like that? Yeah, Pretty much. It was. Yeah, a lot of awkward moments sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. Did you ever? [00:08:30] Was it the reason was that one of the reasons why you broke up with that certain person or Yeah, it was one of the major reasons that upset you a little bit. I did a bit, but there was other reasons to OK, Another personal question. What? Um, what is your definition of virginity? Virginity? Virginity? Um, I'd say there's different levels [00:09:00] of virginity for me. There was, like, oral and then anal virginity. And that's I think it do. Um, do do they have the same meaning to you? Well, not meaning, but same effect of those two. Virginity. I think they're both different. Like an is sort of really intimate. And you that with someone [00:09:30] you love, whereas by jobs. Not so much. Yeah. Yeah. Where it's very open. And pretty much like a gay handshake. I've never heard that before. I heard it on Twitter yesterday, so I thought I had to bring that up. So this is what gay handshakes are. It's got something to do with twitter and blowjobs. Pretty much. Uh, I should not tweet that [00:10:00] I tweeted like, 10 times yesterday. You 10 times I saw it and retweeted a lot. Everyone seemed to be in agreeance. Is it like, did they actually trend in New Zealand? That or it might have. It was pretty popular. The trend of the gay handshake of blow jobs. Just talking about Twitter. I found Twitter to be, like a really, really great place for, um, gay youth in New Zealand. Because there are a lot of people on there that tweet and socialise. [00:10:30] It's a very good way to express themselves in a way where the only thing people can do is just say stuff. And when they actually do, like, posts or anything, it's not like Facebook. Yeah, where it's easy to look at your past. Well, it is easy to look at your past, but the only thing you can show is your statuses and blah, blah, blah, blah How you express yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um how do you meet [00:11:00] other people? How do I meet other people? Um usually through friends like and parties and all that, like, in town, and went out drinking with friends. You meet new people. Try not to break into the dance. New York? Not at all. So, um, have you ever received any abusive behaviour from [00:11:30] general public family members, Friends, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah? Um, not really. I've had a few people yell stuff at me and my boyfriend when we were walking down the street. But he usually deals with that by yelling something back at them, and that's very, very funny. And they run away. Oh, please, please elaborate. Um, Well, we were walking in the mall one day and some guy yelled out Homos. So then my boyfriend turned [00:12:00] around and yelled out a lot of abusive things, which I should not say. Go ahead. Um, he called him a fucking retard and a whole lot of other things. Is there any, um, any point where I was like, Oh, would you like to, um, would you like to flip your cock out so I can suck it for you? No, I know. I know a few people who do just, um, just [00:12:30] shouting flirtations back to them, and they usually run and they usually run away. That would be very funny to say you should try it. I will. One day. Brilliant. So, um so is there in Hamilton? There's this reputation of chlamydia going around. I think it's completely untrue. Why is that? I've never had chlamydia, and neither has any. I know. [00:13:00] I think it was just like a rumour. And it's probably more to of the university and those study girls, I'd say I'm not very well. I know a few things about comedy. I'm not very up to date, but I know a few things, but I'm not. But the details of it I'm not very sure, is it. Um, I'm sure that once you have chlamydia, you can't get rid of unless you've found out about it very soon. [00:13:30] I have no idea. I think it burns when you pee. I think, um I know, I know that, um, what happens is that if you have chlamydia, it actually closes up the, um the tubes, like from from your testicles to your Penis and the ovaries as well. So it's painful as it probably is, so that affects your your sex life anyway. But I think that's, um you get it's a permanent thing, right? I don't know. I've [00:14:00] never had it. Never want to have you ever had U DS Never always save sex. Always use condoms. Good bye. OK, that is the end of the interview. Would you like to say anything else? No, thanks. Thanks for interviewing me. It was awesome Fun, was it? It was ok. Not a problem. Thank you.

IRN: 626
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_thomas.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003999
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089293
TITLE: Thomas - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Hamilton; Q12 (series); Waikato; abuse; bisexual; bullying; coming out; cooking; family; friends; internet; mountain biking; movies; music; nature; parents; regions; relationships; social media; sport; support; tramping; youth
DATE: 17 July 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Waikato, Waikato, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Thomas talks about being young and bisexual in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? Good. That is good. Um, So what's your name? Thomas Thomas. And where are you from? Waikato. Waikato? Where abouts? Is that near the caves? Yes. Yeah. It's a very small community there, isn't it? Very small, but very community based. So, like, everybody knows everybody. Yes, definitely. Yeah. So, um, do you have lots of business down there and not in the winter, but a lot in the summer [00:00:30] with the caves and stuff? Yes. You get a lot of rain. So what do you do as a job? I work in a kitchen, being a dishy hand, a kitchen hand. As you say. I do all the prep work. Do all the breads, do all the desserts. I clean the kitchen as well. Yeah. So the kitchen bitch? Yeah. Oh, bend over. Um, so can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Um, [00:01:00] I'm not sure. I'm not very good at this. I haven't anything about yourself. Yeah, I like about music. Do you like music? I like listening to music. And I can write music a lot better than I can read or play music. Yeah. Do you like to listen artists, art anything? Industrial or heavy metal. So you you're a goth? No, [00:01:30] this is a heavy metal. Yeah, I like. I like my beat to be quite consistently heavy. So, um, how about like, movies? You socialise a lot. I don't socialise much at all. I've never really had friends. Um Hm. Movies. That's a hard one. It would be men behind the sun, which is a really real type of violence movie, and it's quite disturbing. What is it about? [00:02:00] Um, it's kind of the Japanese version of a prisoner of war camp. And it's about some of the stuff that goes on in there and some of the tests. And it's a horror movie. Yeah. So, um, how old are you? Um, 17. 17? Almost 18. Yes. Got short. Short. Um, So what gender identity are you? Male? Male. And how do you express yourself? That's good. Um, And what is your sexuality? Bye bye. [00:02:30] And when did you realise that you had attractions to the same sex? I don't know. I just kind of felt it. I don't really have any particular thing that just I was. How old were you? Oh, it would have been two years ago, so that would have been 16. 16. Did you feel like Hey, this is new? No, not really. I just went with the flow. I've always been a person that's gone with the flow. I've always said to myself, Keep moving, keep going no matter which direction you step. So I was [00:03:00] just like, OK, so So you've always been like, Yeah, it's I I'll find out someday, find out, as I confirmed it last month that I was definitely by. How about, um, attractions to girls? I'll definitely pick a girl over a man, but I'd still go and have fun with both. Do you Have you had relationships with any of the sexes? No, I've always been a loner. Never had a relationship with either. [00:03:30] So, um, So you're in the closet? Uh, no, not really. I'm just I'm lacked social skills for the amount of bulling I've had over the years. So I've never made an effort and too scared to make an effort to really socialise. I've never really been in the closet. Just lack social skills from my previous history at school, and I just can't be bothered just telling your parents or anything like that or no, not really. I can't really be bothered. It's just no point [00:04:00] until I actually get into. If I got into a serious relationship, I definitely would. Yeah, so you don't feel like it's just he had to keep it a secret you just don't want. There's just no point at the moment. There's nothing like I'm doing anything. So if your parents came up to you and asked you, Are you by, would you tell them I'm reasonably honest with her parents? So I definitely would if they asked, they would. Yeah, and this is obviously people around that I didn't particularly want to hear. I'd probably tell them a bit later. Yeah, so if [00:04:30] you could tell them, how would you tell them? Um, I'll probably just say, Ah, I'm not sure. Actually, I would never I've never really considered it because I'm usually just straight up and ask them would just say I'm by If they were asked, it's going to get much complicated. I would say it outright to them and not like through text or Facebook. Comment. No, definitely not. I'm rather honest. My parents and my parents have always encouraged me to be honest with them. So if something needs to be honest, it's It's gonna be said honestly and upfront. How do you think they would [00:05:00] react? Wouldn't really care. They'd be just like, Oh, well, you know, it's his life. He chooses how to live it like, Oh, really? OK, squirrels. No, no, not really. There's no squirrels here, so kiwis, kiwis, Kiwis. Good kiwi. Yeah, something like that. You know, you don't see a lot of kiwis here? No, I have held one in my life for like, two minutes. It's Ivan Kiwis. You hold one [00:05:30] for yes, I we we we Bush back bashing for maybe an hour and a half to go and re a kiwi in the back of car workers. Some good friends of my dad. That's quite dock, uh, conscious and stuff and all sorts of stuff. Are they vicious birds or Yes, they're very feisty and they look smooth, but they're definitely not smooth. They're incredibly rough. So they really itchy. They were mind kicking your ass. No, they would. They're worse than possums. And possums [00:06:00] are pretty violent. I nearly lost my thumb to a possum and a kiwi would quite happily do more damage. I remember once I was chased down the road from possum. Yeah, I I've still got scars right around my thumb from it. Um, So what else do you do when it comes to that sort of thing? Do you usually go down like Bush Wing or something? Not very. Not very often. I like to get into more tramping. It's kind of a thing. I like escaping the world. It's just you, the bush and nothing else. [00:06:30] No noise. Nobody to bother you. Not in a hippie type way. No, literally. It is just to escape the world. You can feel nothing when you're out there by yourself and you meet the most random or strangers walking out in there. If you meet somebody out there, they're going to be friendly. There's never anybody horrible out in the bush. Well, 99% of the time, especially where most trampers like me that like to go. Where do you like to go anywhere with a hut? And that probably [00:07:00] takes at least three hours to get to. Have you actually been to National Park National Park as middle of the North? Yes, because my dad lived about, uh, 20 KS 25 ks at O PC. Uh, the I PC Village. Yeah. So have you done that little walk tramp kind of thing? Uh, no, not the one out there. I I've done. I've seen a few tracks out there. I've been my dad used to play, um, play [00:07:30] around there as a kid. A lot out at Bush when he was a teenager. Hm. Yeah. So, um, how did you How do you feel being in, Um, not you're open about it, But you're not telling anybody kind of thing. Uh, no. Unless I know that they buy, they don't make an effort to, you know, make sure that they know How do you feel when you hang around how the people there are gay by or just fun? You know, it doesn't really bother me. I have [00:08:00] nothing against anybody. Really. I've always lived my life. Nothing against people when you got enough. If you have enough bulling in your life, you learn to forgive Really? Well, because you know, so don't mean much when you when you deal with this much stuff in your life and people are forced to say sorry. You just give up having any meaning for Sorry and give up your aggression against anybody. You just learn to like people too easily. So, um, do you have any sort of support? No, [00:08:30] not really. My mum would be rather supporting, but that'd be about it. She's really supportive about things, but Oh, look, my mom took in a girl that was having a few issues with her Real well, her adopted mum. And, um so So she's a lesbian. So we buy one of the two. So she's a good person to talk to and a couple of really good friends back from school, because I only I only had good friends from school, so yeah, I, I I'm reasonably well [00:09:00] supported of anything. You know, it happened in my life. If you, um if you could tell anybody, who would you tell? Um, I've actually told quite a lot of people. Mainly, my good friends, apart from your friends, your family members. I've told my brother and I technically call her my sister, but she's not. And that'd be about it so far. It would be it. Why is your brother, sister, brother and my sister. She She's, um, kind of [00:09:30] transgender. No, she's, um She wasn't actually anything to do with our family. Mum just took her own because she was having issues at home. Fair enough. So, um, have you ever been in relationships? No. Never. Never. Never. Because I'm too much of a loner and lack too much social skills. Why is that? Why do you feel that? Um, I just don't have enough. I've just gave up and trying to get close to people because or make friends with people and just giving up. I can [00:10:00] be stuffed. So have, do you think that being in you being, well, you're not in the closet? But you just can't be bothered telling anybody, right? No, There's nothing to do with that. It literally is to do with the lack of social skills and the lack of kind of feeling I have for people. You know, when you deal with 11 years of bullying for like your first year, you ever went to school in primary, right through to your last one. really does [00:10:30] make you not want to be around people because you're just too much fear to be near people because you think they'll judge you. How about your friends that you have right now? Um, in terms of what you do, you socialise with them a lot. Uh, well, mainly because I live in Hawke's Bay. Um, it's a bit a bit annoying. I I've caught up with an old school friend from primary recently, which was good, And also one of my friends was recently up [00:11:00] in, and I caught up with him, which was good, but that'd be about it before that. It would have been a year and a half since I last been to a friend's house. Or I even caught up with a friend other than my online friends, which don't really count because I don't really know them in real life, but I have good friends. So, um, do you have a What is your definition in virginity? Um, well, once you've had any intercourse with either sex, really, Is that your only definition? Yes. That would be [00:11:30] your own definition, because it is exactly what it is. It doesn't need to be more complicated about it. Some people think otherwise. Yeah, some people think that you kind of need you. You lose your male virginity to a man, and you also lose lose your female one if you get what I mean. Some people think that there's more layers of virginity than there is in two just sex and stuff. It's just, you know, once you've had intercourse with another human being, that's, you know you've lost it. [00:12:00] So are you religious at any, uh, definitely not. And I I still, Technically, I technically think even science is technically a religion because, you know, it all is just an explanation of the universe and each one. It's another layer of more complexity and more realistically. So in a way, you're like an atheist or just no III. I don't like to be labelled with anything like that. I'm literally just don't believe in stuff like that because they're all still [00:12:30] explanations of the universe. But obviously I still support science more because it makes more logical sense. But, you know, religion does offer morals and science doesn't, so it is kind of handy in that aspect. So you've been bullied a lot. Lots, mainly. My high school and community years were all physical and previous to that was all, um, mental kind of verbal stuff. So you've never been abused about your sexuality? No, because I didn't express it at school or anything because I used to use usually Just sit [00:13:00] in the corner, cross legged through all the lunchtime and stuff, or hide away in the Student Learning Centre or a library in all the world. Try and avoid people. Do you have, like, a little sanctuary where you go to each lunch time when you're in high school or something? When I was, uh, no, not really. I would literally cross my legs, cross my arms, sit, sit in the corner for nearly an hour, wait till the bell rang and eat my lunch. Good lunch. What did you have for lunch? [00:13:30] Oh, my mom's a great cook. So we used to have things like leftover rice and stuff like that with really nice stir fry on top. Really nice stew and stuff. That's why I enjoy cooking. I brought $600 knives, but I will. Have you ever thought about going to a tech or something for hospitality? Um, no, not really. Um, I've looked into that, but, you know, um, it's kind of difficult for me to explain. Not sure if I could really explain [00:14:00] it. Hm. Oh, well, is it like something about your social skills or no nothing to do with that? It's just I don't I I've working in the kitchen and knowing how much I I haven't really particularly enjoyed it working in the kitchen. It's not particularly an environment I like working in. You know, I can be passionate about the cooking, but the way it works in the kitchen, I don't particularly enjoy it. I could easily own a cafe, though, if I wanted to. You prefer the coffee a lot? Yeah. So [00:14:30] you have a bit of a coffee addiction, don't you? Not really. More of a extreme passion for coffee, A rather over the top one as well. And I really love the flavour of coffee. And I love showing people that there are different types of coffee than just coffee and water. And, yeah, there's there's more. There's there's really nice stuff you can. The world has a lot to offer that you know, most Western world people don't get to try because it's just usually milk and sugar, and that's it with their coffee. Then there's more to try than [00:15:00] just that. So, um, New Zealand is the only one is the only place that has flat whites? Yes, it's the only place that they call them flat bits, but some Yes, some countries call them by different names. It'll be just like a coffee with milk, please. And, you know, and that'll be it. And then they'll give it a fancy name. The fluffy one. A fancy name just because a a flat white or something random like that. Thank you for the interview.

IRN: 624
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_josh.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003998
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089292
TITLE: Josh - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Family Bar (Auckland); Hui Putahi (2012); Karangahape Road; Q12 (series); Wellington; abuse; bisexual; coming out; dance; dating; friends; gay; gym; internet; internet dating; parents; relationships; sex; sexuality; social media; spirituality; sport; support; youth
DATE: 2 July 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Josh talks about being young and gay in 2012. Josh talked to Ben during the Hui Putahi, held at Tapu te Ranga Marae in Wellington, 7-10 July.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm great. Now you're sick. Yeah. Yeah, he got a bit of a cold stuff. He knows it's OK. I'm feeling the same way. So can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Well, from South Africa originally I've lived in New Zealand for four years. Um, I do events management and wedding planning as my job. And I'm studying architecture. You look a bit irish. Uh, yeah. I do have Irish blood from my grand [00:00:30] my grandpa's side. So Dad's side? Yeah, you're short and you're a bit of a knob. And also you've got green glitter for you. Um leprechaun? Yeah. Leprechaun. Yeah, it's my pot of gold. It's your pot of gold. You jump up and, like, click your heels together. Oh, yeah, Totally. Seriously. I said no. I was waiting for that. We could do like a video or do a video [00:01:00] and put it on the website. Sorry to disappoint. Damn. Um OK. So how old are you? I am 20 years old. 20 years old? Yeah, 20 years old, 20 years old? Yes. What is your sex? My sex are male. What is your gender identity? My gender identity is male. Male? What is your sexuality? Gay. What is your cultural identity? [00:01:30] No, no, no. What culture do you Oh, culture? I don't really have one. I'm kind of like spiritual. Yeah. Not religious. Not religious at all. God, far from it. No pun intended. Um um what is How do you express yourself? Um, Max? Um no, kind of. I don't know. Am I straight acted? [00:02:00] No, no, I'm not, So yeah, I. I don't know. I'm kind of a good mix. Feminine, masculine in between. In between. Yeah, Yeah. Kind of like me anyway. Yeah. Yeah. So when did you realise that you're fabulously gay? Um, when I was nine, Actually, that's a good start. Yeah. What happened? Uh, young age experience. [00:02:30] Um Oh, yeah. Would you like to, um, elaborate? Not really. Unless you'd like to. Yes, please. Ok, found a porno and copied. Except I was with a guy. That's why did you find a gay porno or found a straight porno? And you experimented on whatever we could. [00:03:00] I'm guessing you experience it on, like, your friends or something like that. Yeah, Exactly. That's the things that people actually do these days. Um anyway, Um, how did you feel when you realise, Bit confused. I had a stage where I was by, um and then very, very quickly Stepped out of it, Kind of slapped myself and said, Ok, well, I'm gay and I'm here. So you went through a denial? Yeah, pretty much. How [00:03:30] long was that sage? Uh, probably about a year. Yeah. So I knew I was. I was definitely gay by Ted 11, but I was the Yeah, it was a bit of an internal conflict. Did you understand all that when you were at that age? Um, not really. Although I didn't know what I wanted. So you did what you, ma for my age of marriage. So when [00:04:00] were you living in South Africa? At the time, or Yeah, I was. Yeah. So it was more of a play date. That kind of went to a little adult. They open about sexuality in South Africa. Um, it depends where you are. Yeah, there is a huge, huge gay movement in South Africa where they do gay pride and huge masquerades, street runs and things like that. But then there are other places where it's shown upon and I'm sure you've heard of, [00:04:30] like, the Uganda kind of stuff and yeah. So, yeah, it's it's hard to say. When have you? When did you move to New Zealand? I? I moved to New Zealand. And four years ago. Uh, 2008, 2000, 9. 2000. 9. 2009. There we go. Four years ago. 2008. That's five years is a bit off. Yeah. Do they teach that in? [00:05:00] I'm kidding. I did much better at maths. Yeah, I think that's because our our students are quite stupid. Um, So when did you come out? When did I come out? Well, yes, I am out. I came out to my family when I was 13, and I came out to my friends actually, three years ago, or I've actually slowly been telling people [00:05:30] as I go along. Yeah, as of two years. No. Three years ago, I kind of just come out. Yeah. Would you like to loud, loud and proud. Would you like to expand on that? What actually happened? How did you tell them? Um, I I kind of told, uh Well, when I got here, I had finished school I'd already matriculated, so it was a little easier because I didn't have to go through the school thing. Uh, and that's a bit of a click. So yeah, [00:06:00] much harder. But once I had moved into the UD stage, it was much easier to tell people, because obviously there's a whole lot. There's there's a whole lot of people like me at uni, so it's not as everyone's fabulous, everybody's fabulous and everybody's got their own identity. Yeah, so yeah, so that's kind of how it happened. So it was just a lot easier at that stage. Or at that later stage, what was the main reactions? Did you get about, um, being [00:06:30] openly gay, a lot of my girlfriends? Because I didn't really have a lot of guy friends. To be honest, the only real guy friends that I had was because I did. I did Jeb a lot. Yeah, I love I love a gay boy doing gym. I love weights. I'm a weight trader. Ah, those types of gay boy. There's either the awkward gay boy or the muscular gay boy that checks out other [00:07:00] guys. Exactly. Which one were you? I'm not 100% sure I don't want to say anything. That would sound bad. I think it's more the muscular gay boy checking out other flat it. So, Yeah, I'm really into that. So, um yeah, so that I, I still kind of keep it a bit promiscuous and a bit and a bit to the side. I don't openly run it and say, Hey, I'm gay kind of thing. But skipping your step? Yeah, or skipper [00:07:30] by step kind of thing. I just keep a PC if someone asks me. Yeah, I'm gay. So, you know, like, have a tattoo across it. Yeah, exactly. It was a rainbow flag. I mean, I want to walk into gym with full makeup on. Oh, that's actually quite interesting. So, like to self do that later. So yeah, that's that's really how how I've adjusted to the community and yeah, it's been much easier [00:08:00] since I moved to New Zealand. Yeah. What's, um, family, like for you or K Road? I should say, um, family bar. It's my home. Everybody knows me. I'm a huge regular. Ah, I know all the all the cross dresses and all the trad, all the drag queens, all the exactly. Yeah, and they all know me by first name, so yeah, I'm out and proud when I'm there. [00:08:30] There, I wear a site. So, um, there's been a lot of rumours saying that K Road or, um, family bar is actually quite dangerous. Um, I wouldn't say that I would. I wouldn't say that at all. I love family. I feel 100% secure there. Um, it's where I can be exactly who I want to be. I don't have to worry about any repercussions. And everybody accepts everybody. [00:09:00] Yeah, it's just a great environment. I love it. And another thing is that family bar attracts a lot of underage people as well. It does, Um, but I think that that's monitored and considered. So I think. And I don't think that there's well to my experience. I don't think that there's anybody that's out to find underage people, um, and put them in a dangerous situation. So, yeah, I think it's a pretty safe environment, even with those risks. [00:09:30] Yeah. So do you have a lot of support? Do I have a lot of support? Yes, I do. Is a huge fan of mine. She like your little fag hag. Oh, yeah, Totally. Is she the same height as you, or Yes, she is. So I literally little fag. Exactly a little fag hag. Um, yeah, but she's kind of like rock. I could go and tell her anything. You should get her to join P flag. I should. And she would happily join. Yeah, So, alongside [00:10:00] my mother, I was like, Oh, after this, I'll have to grab something. Yes. So, um, where was I? So you've been in relationships before? Yes. I've been in four relationships before. Uh, well, long term relationships. Uh, two of them were online. Um, and I kind of flew back and forth, didn't work out. Don't think I'd ever do a long distance relationship again. Uh, yeah. Just too depressing. Um, and yeah, I've [00:10:30] had two other relationships, just not the right people, but we've stayed friends. How long did they all lasted? Um, the two. Well, the first online relationship was my longest relationship, which is a year and a half. Um, but that was long distance to Miami. So very long distance. Um, yeah. Use a pot of gold. Yeah, exactly. The rainbow over to my throw. My pot of gold at Air New Zealand fly over. Um, [00:11:00] so, yeah, that's pretty much how my bank ended up, but, um, yeah, after that, I had another one for six months. Um, just didn't turn out. Um, wasn't the person I wanted to be with. Um and then I've had two others, which had just been more casual, more open. Yeah. Um, I just Yeah, we've just decided it's just we'd rather be friends. Were they, like, a couple of months or a couple of weeks kind of thing? Uh, yeah, the [00:11:30] last two. The last one was three months and actually from a person that I met at Family Bar. Um, and the previous one was a seven month relationship. So Yeah. So a bit of time? Yeah. I wouldn't say that I'm a person practically married. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, I do have experience in relationships, and I know exactly what I want. So until I find it, they'll just be [00:12:00] long periods of time. Yeah, People are looking for your pot of gold. Exactly. Um, so what is your definition of virginity? My definition of virginity O. Well, I lost one at nine. So So, um How would you? Yeah. So, uh, virginity, uh, it's it's a special thing. I kind of regret that I lost mine at, uh I would have rather done it with [00:12:30] someone a lot more special. Someone that I knew a whole lot more. Not that a first grade kind of friend wasn't someone that I knew for a very long time, but we had play dates for years, but still, it just wasn't the same kind of connection. So, yeah, virginity is just a special thing, and people should hold on to it. So how do you meet other people? How do I meet other people? I dance. So you just go of [00:13:00] of of of Oh, hello towards me? Yeah. It's like, Hello. How's it going? Yes. Yes, you go. No, I don't find you attractive. Go away. Born this way. It's kind of a combination. It's dancing. And then there was smoking in my rest Break between dancers and yeah, stop smoking for three weeks. Yeah. So yeah, it's still going, So yeah, the [00:13:30] only smoking you get is the smoke that's in the family bar. Yeah. Yeah, I do get asphyxiated every now and then, but not about the smoke raids. I hate that thing. Sorry. So, um, you also make people a grinder? I do. I do. I love to see what's out there. Who's out there? I've mainly made a lot more friends on grinder than I have. Um, found anybody? Uh, [00:14:00] yeah, I've not one before. One night stands. I don't think. Do you use other sites? Do I use other sites? I have been on other sites I've been on. OK, Cupid. I've been on just guys. I'm still a frequent visitor on just guys, but that's mainly because I have lots of friends overseas. So, you know, I've never heard of those two websites before. Just guys dot Net. It's the greatest website for overseas relationships, Not NZD or bed. Really easy to use. Um, [00:14:30] no, because it's more of a Facebook kind of thing. So you've got a full on profile, You don't have just a single page kind of thing, and you can add it and update it. Yeah, it's kind of like a yeah, a dating site with the model of Facebook kind of thing, so yeah, OK, keep it. Not so much. Not too much of a fan but I don't want to bash it. So So, um, have you experienced city abuse? Uh, yes. In my first relationship. Uh, more mental [00:15:00] abuse and Yeah, Cheating. Yeah. So, about anything else because of your sexuality, uh, I have I have experienced a lot of Well, I'm very, uh, people stealing your pot of gold. I'm very loud, and I'm very bolshy. And if someone says something that offends me, I'll tell them that it offends me. So I generally initiate something that turns into something bigger. [00:15:30] So there has been a lot of incidents, uh, where I have gotten into fights, I guess, with people who don't tolerate other people or they make stupid comments that they have no idea about. So my pot of gold? Yeah, exactly. Oh, thank you for that. If you no worries. Thanks.

IRN: 625
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_aj.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003997
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089291
TITLE: AJ - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Christchurch; Q12 (series); Stand Up For Love; arts; bisexual; coming out; dance; family; fear; friends; identity; music; parents; relationships; sexuality; social; venues; visual arts; youth
DATE: 2 July 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast AJ talks about being young and bisexual in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How are you today? I'm good. That's good. Who are you? A. Are you sure that I am? You sure you seemed like unsure about that? No, I wasn't sure what you wanted me to say. Um, hi. Um so how how old are you? 19. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? OK, well, I'm AJ and I study graphic design in Auckland, originally from Christchurch. And, um and yeah, I'm basically, [00:00:30] um, big Adam le fan and obsessed with Hollywood. If you're wanting to be a designer in L A with flashing lights and Glier money things designer to the star. So you're quite special for this tour that I'm doing. Can you tell us why? How so? What have you designed? I designed a logo for the Q 12 tour. Yes, which is amazing, [00:01:00] by the way. Yes, and also featured in my magazine called Work. Yes. Which is out now, which will be out soon. Hopefully in July, sometime or August, sometime soon. That's become a promotional interview out now. Um, work magazine featuring people. Um, So, um, can you tell us what gender identity you are? Female and culture identity. [00:01:30] Like, what is that. What culture do you mainly identify with? Like? Yeah, um, and your sexuality? Bisexual, bisexual? You seem unsure because I was just gonna say bye. And then I was like, Oh, bisexual. So So when did you realise that you were a boy? Um, I was probably I know I was quite young. [00:02:00] Probably maybe like 15. Yeah, What we're like, what gave you the click to realising that you were a boy? I don't know, I was kind of friends, but I've always been friends of, like, a community of people that are quite open and, you know, different genders and everything. And, I don't know, I just kind of when Brown was getting boyfriends when Brown was getting girlfriends in my group, I was just like, Hey, I don't really care. Love is love and yeah, Have you ever [00:02:30] thought I was like, Hey, this is new. It wasn't really a big like progression. Like, I don't think there was a moment where I went. Hey, I think I buy like I think it was just kind of a why choose? I was like, Oh, girl next to me. You're a girl. I'm a girl. I like guys as well kind of thing. Or I kind of I just realise that I'm kind of attracted to the person and not the gender. So kind of like pansexual, in a way, not pansexual, because I think Pan is kind of buy in disguise. Oh, [00:03:00] what I was always taught is that, um, as pansexual as what I was taught. Pansexual is in love with the person, not the gender, but I think that's kind of buy as well. I think they're similar. Similar, but in different ways. So, um so how did you feel when you realised I was gonna fight about it? I remember I didn't want to. Kind of like my friend was like, Oh, you have to come out. You have to come out. And I was like, Why? Like it there? [00:03:30] You wouldn't come out if you're straight. Um, so there wasn't, like, a big kind of turning point. And I wasn't, like, upset by the fact or anything, because I was like, Oh, cool, you know? Yeah. So you you never was in that moment where you had to keep a secret from everybody? Not really. Um I mean, there was a time where I was kind of a little bit hesitant to kind of, you know, when people would ask and I was a little bit hesitant, but I think that's just because everyone wants you to turn around like as a girl. You know, everyone kind of wants [00:04:00] to turn around and be like, Yeah, like guys, because it's the like quote, normal thing to do or whatever. But I think is not as difficult as it would be to come out as like gay or lesbian, because it's kind of, you know, you could end up. Your parents always go, Oh, you could end up with a boy. It's like wishful thinking, wishful thinking, wish thinking, wishful thinking and wishful thinking. So true, Yes, but I think [00:04:30] you are like everyone's kind of buy until you're with a partner. So, you know, I suppose it changes a little bit. Do you think that parents, um, see, want their Children to be the golden child to be like a little image of themselves? In a way, I think, But, um, I don't know. I think it's important to kind of find that place where you identify yourself and not as the product of your parents. Um, which is kind of a hard thing to get past. But [00:05:00] once you get there, it's a good place. Especially when you're changing. Um, when you're a different sexuality to, they are. Yeah, exactly. But I think it kind of it doesn't come up in, like, conversation as much as a lot of people think it would like. I don't think I've ever had my parents go like, What are you? Um I think my I think my brother kind of caught on this, Um, but yeah, I don't It's never I've never had a real big Congo with them over it. Yeah. So, um, where [00:05:30] am I? So you've had a girlfriend in the past? I haven't had a girlfriend. I've been, like, attracted to girls, but, um, I've had, like, three relationships. And, um, like I dated a guy for I've had long term relationships, So, yeah, I haven't explored as much. So, um, going back to when you you weren't really in the closet. So you never were in the closet, were you? No. No. [00:06:00] Yeah. The closet is unknown territory for you, I think. Well, I don't know, because yeah, like I said, I've never had a point where someone's actually asked me directly. So it's never kind of come up. Your closet is filled with glitter and and things, and, um, looking at it, it looks like, um, makeup and Chris Allen. Oh, my God. Yeah. That's Chris Allen in the closet. He should come out of there. [00:06:30] They had the little man crush with Adams. That's their child. So true. So how did you feel when you, um when you realised that you were a boy, I think kind of quite liberated in a way, because it was kind of like, I don't know. I think you spend like, at some point, I think we all spend whether we realise it or not. You kind of identifying with who you are? Um, so I think kind of liberated when [00:07:00] you realise who you are. Um, yeah. So I feel liberated. Yeah. And how do you feel when people started learning about your sexuality? Um, like, see, my friends are quite they're all quite open, so they're all quite good about it. I haven't really had, um I've only probably had a couple of people in my life that would kind of disagree with it. Um, but then, like I said, I've kind of dated guys, so they were fine with it. Ah, so that's what means Ah, [00:07:30] um, but I don't know. I think, Yeah, your close friends kind of stick by you, and they don't care. They don't see you for a sexuality. They see you for who you are. So, um, you've got a lot of support in your little step, don't you? Yeah. From my friends. Not so much family. Um, but I've been kind of away from home long enough to kind of rely more on my friends than my family. And your friends are the ones that stick with you. So you're very independent. Yeah. Yeah. [00:08:00] You're a strong, confident bullet. Yeah. Just don't take my friends. Let's don't take the glitches. You know, it's like the Guyer poster anything. Do not take my sparkles. It was, um, say, um, you can never take my leather. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. So you've been in relationships with mainly guys, though? Yeah. I mean, I've, like, I know, fooled around with a few chicks. Um, but [00:08:30] yeah, kind of relationships with guys. I'm still young. So I don't really play. I'm quite career orientated, and I'm quite goal orientated. So I kind of put them before relationships. In a way, um, so but yeah, I've been with What do you mean by ex Exclusive? Oh, God. Well, exclusive meaning, like with guys. As in what I'd call a relationship. Because, you know, you can say that you're with someone for, like, a week for [00:09:00] a few days, and it doesn't really work out or something. So I think exclusive, as in long term kind of relationships. Not like VIP exclusive kind of thing. Like that's my That's my main one. So go go in a suit on limousines everywhere. Yeah. No, no, no, I'm not a whore. Escorts. So, um, with your does any of, um then [00:09:30] with your sexuality, does that affect any of your relationships? Um, not really. I think there's a few people that when they find out, it's kind of a little bit like Oh, like I don't know. I think I've had a few friends of mine that are girls who have kind of gone. Oh, well, I'm not gonna do that because it suddenly becomes weird, like there's suddenly kind of a barrier. But, um, mostly, I think, um, it's funny. The guys are more hesitant about it than girls [00:10:00] I, I feel because Yeah, but then again, as I said, a lot of the people I hang out with are kind of identify as gay or bisexual or lesbian. So it's not a new thing. I think we'd be more surprised if someone was like, I'm straight. We'd be like, What? Oh, no, we have a straight up. What are the grandparents got to think? Yes, save the Children go out with a church [00:10:30] group going Oh, straight is not natural. Yeah, well, you know, I like to flip around like, you know, there's that kind of slang thing and, like, especially primary school, Um, when kids are like, Oh, that's so gay and they use it as a negative and me and my friends always go well, that's so straight like what you're doing right now, because I think the straight lifestyle is a lot more boring. Live it up a little bit like the conversation I had the other day is when you see a straight male dancing in the club, that's kind of awkward. [00:11:00] It is the most awkward thing, like I spend a lot of time in gay clubs and then I go to a straight club and it's just the strangest thing, like, it's just not as fun. I also found that show when you're like straight people in a club, like all the girls, that they never go to straight clubs. I always go to gay clubs because the straight A normal straight club is too awkward for them. Yeah, well, I just think there's something about going to a club, and I think going to a club is a very liberating kind [00:11:30] of your chance to be free for a night or a few hours or however long you go. And I think there's more freedom in gay clubs. Um, than there is kind of in straight clubs, because in straight clubs everyone goes to pick up someone, whereas gay lads, everyone kind of just goes to have a good time. They're still hooking up, but they're still hooking out that it is more of a. It's more of a party there. I think, like because a lot of people just sit at the bar and, like someone has come to them and I like Are you really having a good night dating your drink? That you better be a good drink [00:12:00] as well? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cuter bartenders at gay clubs, too. So how do you meet other people in the community? I don't really know. I think it's a very It's a crossover. Like you kind of meet someone, and they know someone else, and, um, they're very attracted to you. I've noticed. It's quite funny. Yeah, I've, um but I I don't really know. I kind of meet them through each other. And you're very active in the community. Yeah. I don't know. I just Maybe I just club at the right places and [00:12:30] go to the right events. You've got, like, Rainbow Youth behind you and stand up for love project that you're doing. Yeah, I try to be kind of I try to be kind of active in it because I've had a lot of friends that have kind of although it hasn't affected me the kind of dark side of it all And, um, you know, just sort of coming out. And, you know, that's lead to a few people, like committing suicide as such and It's kind of I don't think anyone should have to feel that way. So I think I I find it really important to kind of stand [00:13:00] up and kind of stop that from happening. So you want to tell us about your project? Um, stand up. Love is kind of, uh, what we're doing is we're creating t-shirts and we're pairing up with different celebrities and particularly musicians, um, around the world and we are creating walking inspirational messages. So we're splashing song lyrics out of context onto t-shirts and clothing and then we are selling these online with the support of celebrities. [00:13:30] And then all the proceeds are going to go towards charitable trusts such as Rainbow Youth and New Zealand and also Trevor Project, which is in America and kind of more global. Um and then in turn, that can kind of go towards suicide prevention programmes, um, educational programmes, awareness and schools. And, you know, it kind of because when we came up with the project, it was like we were just one person. Well, there was three of us, but it was just one idea and we had to kind of it's harder [00:14:00] to make a difference when there's just three of you. Um, but yeah, it's kind of we're hoping to kind of get it into schools. And really, because when people see a celebrity that they're a fan of, they're gonna listen to them more than they're gonna listen to three young girls that are just, you know, they're gonna listen to Would you listen to me, or would you listen to Lady Gaga like you're kind of more hooked to that. So you've got Adam on board as well, don't you? We do. We've got, um I can't dish too many [00:14:30] names at this point, because until it kind of launches that, yeah, we've got a few people lined up some big names that are yeah. Um, so going for a more personal thing? What is your definition in virginity? Oh, good. Um, I don't even know to answer that one. Can I play the on that one? Um, I [00:15:00] I don't even know what to answer to that one. Rephrase your question. Rephrase it. Um, well, and and some some people, especially in religion. The first virginity is the first time you do something sexual or or or some people just think the first time you have sex. Some people think it's and multiple things the first time you do anything. It's like your lamb. But virginity I said, It's the first time [00:15:30] in a sexual way would be virginity or spiritually or anything like that. First time for anything? Yeah, I think, Yeah, I'd name it in a sexual sense, because I think, um, you know, just kissing someone isn't like a commitment in a way, does It probably makes me sound like a slut, but I think a kiss like that, what is the play is because he's not a contract. So and it's true because, you know, you go to parties and I go to parties and, um, you know, you do end up like [00:16:00] kissing and you know you can kiss people goodbye and you can kiss people one night at a club. But I don't think that's losing your vigil like, because it's not a contract. That was very nice. Exactly. So, yeah, so do you have any other comments you'd like to make? Um, I just think for anyone that's kind of that is bi or gay or identified as anything other than straight that you should kind of not be afraid to kind of get out there. Because if you've got [00:16:30] friends and they're true friends, they're gonna support you. And I think the fear is that no one will support you. And a lot of people don't wait for that chance to kind of give someone the time to stand up and go. Hey, it doesn't matter. And you'd be surprised how many people don't care about what you identify as because people don't come up to you and be a friend. And the first question isn't what is your sexuality? And if it is, then they're not worth your time. So I think people are gonna stick [00:17:00] by you and especially for young people. You need to get over the fear of kind of coming out because we are in 2012 and it's a different age and people are more accepting. And there's more people out there. And, um, it's not we we kind of past the point where sexuality was a boundary, and especially in New Zealand, you know, we don't live in a place where you can get fired for your sexuality, and there's not as much discrimination, So I think there's that kind of little voice in people's kids that go, I'm not going to come out. I'm [00:17:30] just gonna I'm not gonna do this. I'm gonna be really upset and live in my own little bubble when it's really not that scary on the other side. So Yeah, well, thank you for the interview.

IRN: 623
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_allia.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003996
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089290
TITLE: Allia - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2000s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Hui Putahi (2012); Q12 (series); Tapu te Ranga Marae; Wellington; bullying; cis female; coming out; foster homes; homophobia; identity; internet; pansexual; parents; pets; queer straight alliance (QSA); regions; relationships; school; school prom; sex; sexuality; social media; youth
DATE: 9 July 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Allia talks about being young and pansexual in 2012. Allia talked to Ben during the Hui Putahi, held at Tapu te Ranga Marae in Wellington, 7-10 July.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? Great. And where are you from? Auckland. What part? West Auckland, West Auckland. And what is your name? Aah! Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Um well, I've been through fost homes my whole life, Um, being put with different families, having to adapt to having different parents and different lifestyles and having my parents have different views on my lifestyle and going from rural to urban areas and [00:00:30] seeing the community's views on different lifestyles. That's pretty much so. You want to tell us? Um What? Um, some examples of those, um well, I was lucky. The rural area I was in was only when I was a baby, but looking back at them now, some of the people that I was close to us as accepting of my lifestyle and the first foster family I was in were real conservative Christians, and but they've changed now and now they're really accepting of me. And I think we've [00:01:00] actually gotten closer over it because I helped them open up to them as people because now they're able to accept the community more so they're more comfortable in their own skin. That's I did not know that. Um, So you're here at the Yes, Yes. What is the, um It's to help students organise Q SAS at their high schools or maintain their Q SAS. So we're here in Wellington. It's a beautiful day, Kind of. [00:01:30] Yeah. Yeah. You're the only warm person from the blankets. Yeah, and I have the least warm blanket, but I'm the warmest. You're the warmest with the thinnest blanket out, which makes no typical sense. What bear blames Teddy bear. Um, So what is your, um how do you feel about being here, etcetera? Um, it's the most comfortable I felt in my life. Like I'm around the nicest people I've ever met. And it's just I feel [00:02:00] like myself for the first time, and it's been great. You don't have to be like Bitch, please. I do that at home just for the hell of it. Just for the hell of it. Just go up to your mother, not even my personality. I'm just like you know what? I'm going to do this because it sounds cool. Just go up to your mother and say, Bitch, please. And then she just screams at you. I don't live at home anymore. But I do it to the person I live with. I just boarding with a random family boarding with a random family bitch. Please [00:02:30] work. Work it. So, um so what is your gender identity? Female CIS female. And what is your What is your expression? Female feminine? Well, actually, I'm sort of I don't like skirts and dresses and not that sort of feminine. But I'm not very butch and manly. I just I'm sort of in the mid ground. And what is your cultural [00:03:00] identity? Meaning Ethnic European, European and well, not necessarily. Um, you what you are, But you could actually, um, culturally be with Maori if you wanted to be. I'm European. And what is your sexuality? Pansexual. Pansexual. So I've for me not a lot of people know what pansexual is. Do [00:03:30] you want to tell us what your what pansexual is? Hey, Well, pansexual is actually got a lot of different meanings for different people. But the way I use it is attraction on a spiritual level where I'm going to fall in love with a personality. I don't actually see what people look like. I couldn't describe what someone looked like to you. Um and I'm just going to fall in love with the person. And I don't notice gender. I don't notice skin colour. I don't notice eye colour. It's just they're all a blur, But they're amazing people. And that's who I'm going to fall in love [00:04:00] with a cookie. So, um, when did you realise that you're a pansexual? I chose to be a pansexual you to be a pan. I didn't want to single out one gender. I just I felt that was for me. I couldn't do that. So I'm one of the few people that chose to be gay. It's rare. So when did you choose, then, Um Well, I was always sort of didn't understand sexuality in a way. And then I realised about last year [00:04:30] beginning of last year to midway through that, you know, this is what I want to be. I was always, like, confused about what? That was for me. And then I heard the term pansexual. And so I was like, Yes, that's me. That's who I want to be. That's what I want. Yeah. Last year, how did you feel? Um, sort of happy, like I'd finally found who I was and who I wanted to be happy. Yeah, I just felt content that, you know, I'd finally found who I was because, [00:05:00] you know, that's always a long journey. So you're proper happy, not happy. Happy if there's a difference, we'd happy I jumped up and down in excitement, and I was like, Yes, I know who I am. I'm Benex. Yeah, it wasn't that dramatic a little bit, actually. I was pretty over the moon about it. Luckily, my family wasn't home because I didn't want to come out to them yet. Sort of. Yeah. When did you come out? I came out of last year in an argument with my mother, [00:05:30] but I didn't want to, because she's homophobic towards gay guys. And I didn't want to be accepted by her. Just because I'm a female like a spear at the moment burst out like I'm or she was dogging on gay guys with a whole bunch of Jehovah witnesses, and I just burst into tears and I go fuck you. I'm gay. And I'm really angry that the only reason you're going to accept me is because I am a chick and you won't accept my two gay brothers because they have a dick. And I even considered getting a sex change and becoming a gay guy [00:06:00] just to piss her off. Is that something that you wanted really or Well, I've considered it a few times. I think it would be real interesting, and I could adapt to that. And it would be fun. Um, I'm happy as I am at the moment, but it's something I would consider seriously, that's that's good. Um, so who was the first person? So your mother was the first person you came out to? Or, um, I came out pretty sure. [00:06:30] I came out to one of my friends first, Um, because my whole group of friends just assumed I was a lesbian and I became the school faggot. So I've sort of adapted that and just I pretend I'm a lesbian. At school. I came with you went with a lesbian to the prom. Yeah. If I'm going to be the school faggot, then I'm going to be the school faggot with all I am. But, you know, I've explained to my friends what I am, and a lot of them are actually envious of my sexuality and the ability to not judge. So, yeah, I've noticed that you're extreme [00:07:00] Adam Lambert fan. Yeah, extreme is a little underrated, isn't it? Underrated. Extreme, Um, uber obsessed. He's the centre of my world, actually. Yeah, well, it's actually funny because I hated him for two years, and I like all his friends and family better than him. He's just sort of the centre of it all. And he's the easiest to portray to people as a fan girl. Like I was like, Oh my God, Sally And they were like, Who's Sally? Where do you go? Adam Weber and [00:07:30] everyone around him. They understand that. So So if you want to tell us who Sally is, his gorgeous finish model boyfriend is a hunk of a dude. Just saying So is Neil. Oh my God. Oh, look, there is a cat. Hello, cat, Black and white. It's behind the heater Blackie. So here at the everybody's been screaming out cat because [00:08:00] there's three of them, three of them, the black and white one, which apparently is Blacky. There's a tabby cat. I'm not sure it's name. And then there's another one, which is a kitten. And what's the tabby one? Uh, one's hunger. The great one. I got one down in the flat next door. I see the one up here called Hunger Buster. Yeah. Oh, hello, Black. [00:08:30] I think they all do. We forced to love Cuddles. Yeah. Yeah. This interview is being a bit he's gone straight to cats. What do you like about cats? Um, their independence and their fuck your attitude. And they keep your lap warm. Oh, my God. I think we can listen to this pairing. Think everybody listening to this. Um, and you would go? Oh, right [00:09:00] now. So, um, continuing with the interview, We've gone a bit off track, but oh, well, how did people react when you came out? Um, they were all exciting, um, accepting about it. My mom is still convinced I'm a lesbian, and she can't grasp the concept of pansexual. And that frustrates me so much because it's just sort of made boundaries on my life. Like she just assumes everything I do is lesbian, and she won't accept the fact. And then I tell her that I might end up with [00:09:30] a guy, and then she goes, So you're straight, and she has no concept of in between and where all my friends understand it. You know, having your family not understand It is so hard because it's like they're refusing to accept you as you They're wanting to put a label on you so, bitch. Yeah, Yeah, it's a bit mixed up, and but But the people I care about because I'm going in the end, my friends are the people I'm going to turn to because I know that they're the accepting [00:10:00] ones. So I felt who I'm closest to now who is who are you closer to J AJ AJ my best. I tell her everything and and my best friend for 12 years was my pet pig because she was always there for me and she wouldn't tell any of my secrets. And she never judged me. And I think you know, having an animal to be your best friend is [00:10:30] the safest option sometimes. So, um so that's your support. What are you doing? Of course Has been anything you got me, you poor thing. You've got me. OK, we have to hold on to the she'll destroy my papers. Um, queer Kitty, kitty um So [00:11:00] you've been in relationships before? No, no, no. Why is that? Um I'm quite happy with being single. I haven't fully found myself yet as a person. And I don't want to start looking for someone else before I found myself. Have you been attracted to other people? Yes. Have you been like, Well, not, like crush? Like I want to grab you kind of thing. I've never been in lust and lust. You ever been lost? How have [00:11:30] you been in love? No, I've been in love. I've had crushes. I have a crush at the moment. Never in lust, though never in lust. So, um, has your sexuality or your family ever affected your, um your you getting into a relationship with someone or looking for something? Um, I don't think it would be a boundary, but I just haven't tried yet. And I'm hoping it's not going to be a boundary for me. Do you have boundaries for yourself? What [00:12:00] do you mean by that? Like, do you have any mental boundaries that stop you from doing things? Um, I guess everyone's got a few. You know, I do have a few. I couldn't tell you them right now because I can't think of them. But, you know, I guess when the time arises, I would have some boundaries. Yeah, I think the cat was I think the cat is our boundary at the moment because it's very It's a distraction. Boundary. Hello, Kitty. Come on. Oh, here it comes. Here comes Blackie. Oh, you're so cute. [00:12:30] Listen to Oh, if I could take a photo and put it online, I would show all of you who are listening to this. Um oh, yeah. OK, um, so are you sorry for a very, very, very personal question? But are you a virgin? Yes, I'm a virgin. How cold is that toast? Um, well, I mean, I've [00:13:00] When I was eight, I had my first kiss, and it was with another girl. Um, we were playing Harry Potter and she was playing Harry and I was playing her, and that was before Herman and Ron got together. So we just assumed Harry and her wouldn't get get together, But I don't really count that she doesn't even remember it. Um, so I think I've ruled that out, and I haven't even so at the moment. No, first kiss. No relations. It's not. It wasn't a proper I'm in love Kiss. No, it was You're [00:13:30] Harry. I'm Hermione. Let's make out without actually making up. This is a pretend peak kiss. Yeah. So what is your definition on virgin? Um, I think there's levels of it. I think you know, there's, You know, at the moment I'm fully, you know, um, how do I explain this? There's like, like a colour spectrum or without being a colour spectrum like there's like, I think there's even feeling virginity. [00:14:00] Like, if you've never fallen in love with someone that's a type of virginity, because virginity is about relationships and sex and there's sex. And then there's penetration sex. So it's just all forms of virginity. So in a way, you can't really say what is virginity? Because it's too categorised. Yeah, yeah. So you think that virginity is more not of one thing? It's a whole bunch of things. There's different virginity like me and my friends joke [00:14:30] that if you haven't seen the Rocky Horr pitch show, you're a virgin. And as soon as you've watched it, you've lost your virginity. It's like the rocky virginity. Yeah, I've lost my rocky virginity. You've lost my rocky virginity. I lost it when I was four years old, dear. Yeah, um it's like, um, it's not just that I had a perfect example. I forgot it. How dare I? So, um, how do you meet other people in your community [00:15:00] or in the community? Don't meet other people in the community. You don't? No, no. I live on the computer or AJ. I met her because we were wearing the same Adam Lambert T shirt. And so we were like, Hey, same t-shirt buddies. And now we're best friends. And it turned out I'd been her friend on the Internet for a few years, which is quite funny. Yeah, I think that's how I meet most of my friends is via the Internet. I don't like the people in my community. So, so far [00:15:30] is that is it because of the region you live in or West Auckland is gangs and drugs, and I'm not interested in that, and I don't want to be a part of that. So I don't want to be a part of the people surrounding that. The kitchen is biting me. Good old kitty. So um, how about other parts of Auckland, though, um, don't really leave my town. I couldn't even direct you around my town. I just never leave the house. I'm a bit of a hermit, so I don't talk to people. The only place you go to is just to, [00:16:00] like, unite or school or my school or a school. I went to the rain Youth for the first time this week because I'm getting involved in that. But I'm not involved in that yet. And now they get inspiring you. Hello? Oh, this is this interview has turned into the interview about the cat. Yeah, well, the cat could be gay. We can't make assumptions. Let's ask the cat, Are we allowed to ask the allowed to ask the kitty? [00:16:30] Let's see. Are you straight or gay? OK, Or any other LGBTI Q? No, we don't have it. He's content with his sexuality. He's content and it's gender identity. It's gender identity. What? I wonder what gender this cat is. Well, we can't even check that because we can find out it's sex, but we can't find out it's gender because cats don't OK, let's find out the sex shall we? [00:17:00] It was a female little female cat. That's quite awkward. Oh, it has gone hiding in there. I don't like be anymore. He doesn't like me. So have you ever experienced any abuse or abusive behaviour by people? Um, last year at school, I was getting to threats because I was the school figure. And at that point, they didn't even know I was gay or a pan or whatever. Um, they just found someone [00:17:30] who looked weak to pick on, and they didn't realise that I would turn out to be one of the biggest gay supporters in the school and turn it all against them. And you've silenced all the critics from taking AJ to your ball. Yeah, well, since I took a chick to prom, they haven't called me a faggot. I think it was the big holy shit. She is gay. And this has been affecting her moment and that that even though they knew it was affecting me by taking a G two prom, it was a big [00:18:00] Well, she's still proud. And she's going to be gay. No matter what we say, we can't change that. I think also, in a way, It's just that when they insult you by calling you gay, it's not an actual insult. They're trying to find a way to insult when you're straight because you when you're if you're straight and you're been called gay, you react. But if you really are gay and you and you actually come out as gay, for example to the ball, [00:18:30] they be like, Holy shit, they are actually gay. We can't actually. OK, um, new plan. No, that's exactly it. Yeah, well, thank you for the interview. That's right. Had fun. So did I. That's the cat. It's all about the cat. It's all about the cat. Thank you. It's all good.

IRN: 601
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_antica.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003995
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089289
TITLE: Antica - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Hui Putahi (2012); InsideOUT Kōaro; Q12 (series); Rainbow Youth; Tapu te Ranga Marae; Wellington; androgynous; bullying; coming out; family; friends; gender identity; growing up; homophobia; identity; lesbian; parents; queer straight alliance (QSA); relationships; school; sex; support; youth
DATE: 9 July 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Antica talks about being young and lesbian in 2012. Antica talked to Ben during the Hui Putahi, held at Tapu te Ranga Marae in Wellington, 7-10 July.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How are you today? I'm good. Thanks. Benji, How are you? I'm fantastic. Who are you and where are you from? Auckland. Where are you originally from Auckland, as well? Yes, I'm originally from Auckland. How old are you? 17. 17. You're almost 18. Almost 18 and three days. Two days? Two days. Even better. Yeah, exactly. So you're here at the Yes, I am sitting with you on a bed. On a bed. Your bed? Yeah. Morgan's bed. Very descriptive. [00:00:30] How are you feeling? At the pretty good. Nice to be around. Same sort of people. Same interest. You know what? You want to share any of your experience so far? Um, you're sitting on a bed. I'm sitting on a bed doing a really lovely interview. No, Um, I don't know. Just learning heaps of new things, extending my knowledge of Q SAS and how to run them and maintain them and different stuff about political stuff. And it's been really good. So can you tell us about yourself? [00:01:00] Um, well, I'm 17 year old lesbian Lisbon lesbian. Um and I work with rain now and then, Um, it is my goal to work with them full time in the future. Um, I What? I sort of know Lisbon. The new lesbian? Yeah. Lisbon. That's what I am, the Lisbon. Um So what's it like being still in school? Are you still in school? [00:01:30] I am still in school. It's pretty good. Um, my school was really good with, like, the whole, like, queer stuff. Pretty accepting. I had my own QS a, um and we got the school on TV on 60 minutes for it, which was pretty cool. It was, like, two years ago when I set it up. Yeah, it was good. So you're famous now? Yeah. Yeah, Pretty much famous glory. I'm just a big star. Really? Obviously, I had to get your autograph, so [00:02:00] keep that paper I signed. It would be worth it for few years. So So, um, everything's all fine and dandy, then? Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah, it's really good. So, um, what do you identify with as your gender female? And what is your gender expression? Um, no, I'm not going to say because that's that's a derogatory term. Um, I would say quite Ando and, um but you [00:02:30] know just how I express myself. But some people like to categorise that, but I don't I don't see it as a category, but if you're going to give it a name, I'd say Ando. What does Andy mean? Um, it's kind of like you don't really how to explain it. I just express myself how I feel, but it just appears in, like, a gender neutral sort of way. So, you know, for some people, that might mean to me I look more masculine, but some people that might mean I'm a little more feminine. It just depends how I feel. Like expressing myself at the time. [00:03:00] So, yeah, it's a good way to look at it. Um, so your sexuality is Lisbon. Lisbon. Lisbon. So when did you realise that you were a lesbian? I realised I was a lesbian just five seconds ago. Five seconds ago. Yeah. Um, no, I didn't really realise. I just kind of came to terms with it because, like, I, I've been brought up in a really gay friendly environment. I've been brought up by two lesbians, so I've been exposed [00:03:30] to this sort of stuff from pretty much when I was a baby. But, um, so it's never really been a problem for me. I've never actually had to come out to anyone. But I've kind of just come to terms with myself. So I kind of came up to to myself more than anyone else. So that would have been about 13 14. So it was not really about realisation. It was more about accepting, just accepting and just being like, Well, this is who I am. So have you ever thought it was like, Oh, wow, I'm listening. This is new thing [00:04:00] or no, because you were brought out. It's never really been like a new thing to me or a shock or anything, because I've been exposed to it like my whole life. So kind of just came real easy for me, Scott, When you're thinking when you think about if you turned out straight and you had two lesbian parents, they'd be like, Oh, Oh, what the grandparents gonna think? Um, I don't think it would really be a shock because, like, you know, because my Nana and her partner have always said, [00:04:30] you know, we love you no matter what you do like even like, You know, if I wasn't gay, they'd still have the same love for me. We just kind of have, like, a real special kind of connecting bond now because of it. And we kind of, like, make jokes about each other's sexuality and stuff. So it's a really good relationship between us. So, um, how about coming out? How is coming out to them? Um well, I kind of sat down because I kind of told him when I got my my head like a crush on a girl. And I was like, I like this girl and my nan was like, It's about time, Like [00:05:00] we've known it since you were, like, six. And I was like, Oh, well, why didn't you mention it earlier? She's like, Oh, no, I thought we let you, like, figure it out yourself. You know, it's all about fighting it out yourself. So, yeah, they just kind of like I was like, Yeah, it was great about time and just made jokes about it, and it was, like, automatically desensitised. So I never had a real issue with it. Well, that's good. How about your friends? Um, my friends have always known like because they say I appear quite masculine and androgynous [00:05:30] and stuff so they've always kind of known, even like my primary school friends, who I haven't talked to since I was, like, 10. I spoken to him recently and they and they were like, Oh, you have a girlfriend, blah, blah, blah. I was like, Yeah, yeah, And like, Oh, we've always known like me and my parents always used to talk about it and be like, Oh, I bet she's going to be a lesbian or, you know, that sort of thing. So, yeah, thanks. Yeah, like I've never actually had an issue with anyone like telling them about my sexuality and stuff. So it's good. So have you ever had, um so being in that [00:06:00] sort of environment, Have you ever had issues in the community? Um, I have had a small amount of issues in the community because there are certain people who used to go to my school who had, you know, quite strong opinions about gays and lesbians and et cetera, et cetera. Um, but they they only kind of raised their issues when I started my QS a and they express it in a way of like violence, like throwing things at the building and like doing a protest against me and all that sort [00:06:30] of thing, but yeah, shit's crazy man. Just the one person doing this. It was sort of lead by one person. But then, of course, you know, in high school, yeah, One person, everyone follows a small pack of guys who are like gay is not the way you pray out the gay, you're disgusting. And I was like, You know what I'm going to take? I'm gonna take this to, like, a senior member of the school and address it properly because it is an issue If it's gonna happen to me, who Because people see me as like a a leader in the school because, you know, and a lot of people [00:07:00] kind of look up to me and how I handle things. So I didn't want to retaliate in a way, um, that would make me look just as bad as them. So I I took it maturely and kind of was just, like, took it to a senior staff member and then addressed it. You know pretty well, And then the situation was handled and, you know, they got what was you know, they got a good talking to about it, so that was really good. But that's the only real issue I've had in the community having only one issue. That's a good thing. Yeah, it is. It's really good. So, um, so your [00:07:30] friends were fine. Um, with you being out, how about, um, people That's not your friends. Apart from the big, random protest that just randomly happened at school. Oh, which, by the way, if the if the teachers didn't even notice that there's a big random protest, it's a bit, yeah. How does random people from the streets take it? Um, I want to say random people on the street. I'd say People are like, you know, at school [00:08:00] who your acquaintances, but you never really hang out with. They kind of see it as like a like a good thing. Like they're like, Oh, like when I'm at a party so like, Oh, this isn't teacher. She's a lesbian. It's like, Oh, OK, automatic label. But that's OK because you know that's how they want to go about it. But they kind of like see it in like an appreciative way because they always come up to me like, oh you're so brave, like you're so confident in who you are, and it's really you know, it's good to see someone so confident, and it kind of like they kind of boost their spirits about it. So, like people who I'm not that close to or like, complete strangers who know of me are real, have [00:08:30] a really good like outlook on me and a good opinion of me, Which is nice to know. Yeah, it's real good. So how did you feel when you came out? Um, relieved, because it was it was more of a thing for myself than anyone else. But yeah, I just finally felt that I could just come to turn to myself and just, like, be able to express myself without being like, What am I doing? Am I doing this right? Like, what am I doing? And then, of course, it helped as well, because, um, I was involved at rain view at the time. And so that meant I had that extra support there. [00:09:00] And people like Priscilla and Tommy and all the other, um, my ex facilitators who were there at the time they really helped me through it, which was really good. And you You've been around with you for like a while now, haven't you? Yeah. I've been doing this since I was just turned 14 and 18. Yeah, four years. Four years? That's really good. Not as long as Tommy. He's been there for ages. Oh, yeah, he works there. There's different. Yeah. So, um, [00:09:30] so you've had a few a lot of positive things as well. So have you been in relationships? I have, Yes. How are the relationships for you? They were great. Like, you know, just loving who I love really, really good with, um, Has you having two lesbian parents affected your relationship at all? Or, um, I'd say it's hasn't affected it, but it's kind of made it a bit easier because, um, [00:10:00] one of the persons people I dated recently her parents at first were not accepting of her sexuality and mine and our relationship in general, like they were just like, this is not this is such a shock to us, you know, we don't understand it. And so the other the other person kind of found comfort within my family because we're so accepting. And there's like, it's pretty much a house full of gays. Really? And so it's actually quite a plus, because a couple of my closest friends are lesbians as well, and their parents don't know about it. And so, you know, it's [00:10:30] kind of like a big shelter, like a house where you can go and just feel safe. So it's been really good. So, yeah, a whole bunch of gays in one house. Yeah, pretty much. That's all it is. Like the re enactment of queers folk. Pretty much the dirtiness, of course. Yeah. Um, So what is your definition of virginity? Virginity? Um wow. Well, he wouldn't [00:11:00] not having sex with someone like I don't know. It's such a strong emotional word. It's a word. Like it's really I Hm? Yeah. I don't really know what to say about that. Other than, like, it's just a word with a meaning, You know? Of course, it means more to a person. It's different to every person, but yeah, you can go to toast for I'm about to say, [00:11:30] um, are you a virgin? I'm not a virgin. You don't have to share the experiences if you don't want to. Cold toast. Oh, this house is freezing, and then the freezer hit cold toasting. OK, um, so do people get jealous of you having a lesbian parents? Um, I think a couple of my friends do because of [00:12:00] their situation. They can't tell their parents. I wouldn't call it jealousy because, like, you know, their parents are their parents, and I'm sure they love them and stuff, but I think like some people see it as a really good thing, but I don't see I just see it as normal. So, you know, But definitely I think it's been helpful for my friends and like everyone around me to know that, you know, if anyone's having trouble or like because one of my best guy friends, he's gay. And he was having real trouble with his parents. His dad was really just cruel about the whole thing when [00:12:30] he came out to him. And so my Nana and I went around and picked him up and stuff, and he and he lived with us for like two weeks, so that was really nice. And he, like we talked about the situation that he was in, and we managed to, like, just kind of solve the problem. And so and now he has a pretty good relationship with his dad. So I think it's it's really good that people know that, like me and my family are there for anyone, so it's really good. Um, So what else? What other support do you have? Um, [00:13:00] aside from Rainbow Youth and my family, I have my friends. They're really supportive. Like we've been friends for ages, so they don't really see my sexuality as anything. Um, yeah, that's why I really have Really? Because, you know, you have a really good alternation. You have a good family, and you have good friends. What else? What do you need? Yeah, and yeah. So you've never had really big, massive issues apart from, um, a random protest. Have you had within the, um, big massive issues within the community, [00:13:30] like big, massive arguments about, um, within the community about the most random subjects or something like that? Um, no, it's actually been really chill. I'm actually really grateful because I've heard, like, horror stories about stuff, and it's like, Oh, I can't imagine what that's like, but I've actually it's been really good. Yeah. Have you, um, apart from the big, massive protest. Have you received any abuse? Um, yeah, I have over the years, but that's just what comes with it. Because, like, I understand that [00:14:00] it is. Even though it is class as homophobia, I kind of respect it as someone else's opinion because, like, I'm not gonna hate them for their opinion, because if they're gonna hate me for mine sort of thing, So I just kind of see it as like a Well, I'm I don't agree with that, but I respect what you're saying. I understand, like, you know, people, certain upbringings, certain sort of stuff that I don't agree with anything, but, you know, but yeah, I just don't see it as an issue. You've never been the reactive person through those abuse, haven't [00:14:30] you? No. I've never really like directly or intentionally retaliated. It could be a moment where I just be like so Yeah, but I've never actually, like, retaliated any hateful or any, like, intentionally harming like actions towards them, because that just makes you just as bad as them. Well, thank you for the interview. That's fine.

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TITLE: Benji Watt - Q12
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VOICES: Benji Watt
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2000s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Benji Watt; Closet Space; Gisborne; Grindr; Hamilton; Hawkes Bay; Karangahape Road; Manawatū; Masterton; Napier; New Plymouth; New Zealand Radio Training School; Palmerston North; Rainbow Youth; Rotorua; Taranaki; Taupo; Tauranga; Wairarapa; Wellington; Whanganui; Whangarei; abuse; bebo. com; bullying; clothing; coming out; community; confidence; diversity; facebook. com; family; friends; gay; gender identity; grandparents; homophobia; internet; labels; language; love; makeup; manhunt. com; media; music; nzdating. com; parents; peer support; public display of affection (PDA); queer straight alliance (QSA); radio; relationships; religion; school; sex; sexuality; single sex schools; support; transvestism; txt; youth
DATE: 18 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Benji Watt, producer of Q12 The Tour, talks about the tour and his personal journey.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So I'm really excited now because, um, binge has just walked in. Uh, we're now in Wellington, and Bing is just about to complete, uh, Q 12 the tour in 2012, and, uh, Binge, What is Q 12? The tour Q 12, the tour. How can I say this? Um, Q 12 tour is a tour or as a project where I go around the North Island, interviewing all the LGBTI Q communities about realisation coming out, relationships, [00:00:30] socialising, bringing up stories, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And it's about finding those voices that wanted to be spoken out. Spoken out. And also, it also helps for research as well. So when you say around the North Island, what centres did you visit? Um, I started off in Wellington for, and then I went back to Auckland [00:01:00] with Plus, we had the pre, um, project for Q 12 before Q 12 to to came. And then, um, I went to Hamilton Rotorua, Um new Plymouth Marton, palmy and fielding as well on the side trip. Um, where else and also Napier? And now I'm back in Wellington. And in that time, how many people did you speak to, I think I I was counting [00:01:30] on my way here. I think it was like, um, there was 27 males, 9, uh, 17 females. And I think there was a few of them that were transgender, That amount of people. I mean, that must be quite a rare event to actually go and be able to talk to 50 young people about being LGBTI in New Zealand in 2012. How easy [00:02:00] was it to find that many people? Well, all the other. Most of it depends on the centres, Actually, because some centres like, um like palmy was quite easy. There's people, um, you just I had lots of friends in palmy and they were like, Oh, yeah, he's so enthusiastic. They want to get their voices heard who and like some other, some others weren't because they don't have, uh, they don't have a group or they their groups is, [00:02:30] um, breaking down slowly because it's a new group, but they haven't been taught leadership how to sustain a group. And some places, um, aren't the very conservative I think it's called. Yeah, conserve. The communities are very conservative and not very open to the idea of sexuality. So how did you make initial contact with people? Facebook was a big help, but I got rainbow youth to help me a lot. Like they They got me in touch [00:03:00] with some people in Wellington for the and then I started, like, adding people on Facebook and adding groups on Facebook. And eventually the word got out there. Hey, is coming to this place? In fact, um, in the closet space for, um, the person who facilitates their made it a big deal on the Facebook page. Like, Wow, Q 12 is coming to You must come to this group this week because [00:03:30] this is so amazing. Like, Wow, that must have been quite neat to have that level of kind of enthusiasm. Yeah, I felt like a rock star, I. I did not expect it whatsoever. I didn't expect to get so many, like, 14 interviews in palmy and, like, seven interviews in So it was amazing. What kind of age range were you interviewing? 18. Well, my age range. I put it on for 18 to 27 generally. [00:04:00] And the majority of people where where did they kind of fall on that, uh 20. They're in the early twenties that the early twenties are very social, so they really Yeah. However I did got a lot of 18 year olds as well. How did you find talking to people of that age group? Because you were what, about 20 now as well. So you're basically doing kind of peer to peer interviewing. Hm? Well, it was quite easy, really, Because I'm a very people person. [00:04:30] I talk to everybody. I It wasn't really much of a difficulty. I mean, there was a few the occasional person that didn't like to talk, and I practically had to beat the answers out of them And, like, kept on asking, not asking. Oh, yeah, I was asking. I kept on asking extra questions so I can talk so I can, like, extend the interviews to what I felt like was a good time for an interview. But for me, it was actually a good, [00:05:00] uh, I was quite it was quite easy for me to actually talk to people. You mentioned the term LGBTI, and I'm wondering, was there much difference around the north Island? Um, in terms of how people, uh, identify themselves because I'm thinking they could use the term queer or gay. Uh, how was that? How did you find that? It was quite, um, interesting, because they were quite they were quite happy about identifying themselves as queer. And I've [00:05:30] heard, like, the first one of the interviews, there was someone who was demisexual. And they said that demisexual is kind of like, um, it's kind of like asexuals in a way, but it's not at the same time, like demisexual is you won't have sex with someone until you feel like you have made a strong emotional bond with them. So to go over that boundary of having a sexual connection with them, which could [00:06:00] be either post marriage or not. Yeah, and they were quite open about, um, how they identify themselves in the sexuality type of way. But at the same time, they didn't like to be putting the, um, a label on themselves. Yeah. What do you think has been the hardest part of of doing the tour sleeping? Um, it's very tiring the tour because some [00:06:30] my my main job of the tour is actually getting the name out there and, like hanging out with the groups and the people around them. So sometimes I'd wake up at six. In the morning just to plan out, schedule my day, get get some interviews done people showing me around this place and then, uh, get more interviews done, and then go back home late at night and do some editing and probably won't get go to sleep till 12 o'clock. Hm. [00:07:00] So it was very That's probably the hardest thing for me in terms of, uh, the amount of time it took and, uh, what you were actually doing on the tour. Is it what you expected it would be? No. No, I didn't expect. I didn't expect it to be so tiring, but I actually loved every minute of it. I loved I loved the travelling as well, because, um, I haven't actually, I've never travelled around New Zealand like this before, and [00:07:30] I've never seen so much scenery before, So they always say that New Zealand is such a beautiful country, but I never actually expected that it was this beautiful, especially going on the buses. And I didn't expect it being like I said, I didn't expect it being tiring, but I guess that comes with the programme. Really? You need if you're tired, that means you've been working hard, so yeah, you say that? Uh, it was, you know, physically demanding physically tiring. What about psychologically [00:08:00] tiring? I'm I'm thinking that if you were talking with 50 people and almost taking on board their stories, what was that like? Funny enough. It was actually quite easy for me. I don't I. I was expecting it. It would actually be, um, emotionally tiring. But I had a lot of support. So it was a problem for me. Like I always had, um, people there, just in case like I had, um, Rain, you, Chaplain Lisa, Um, Mum, my adopted dad [00:08:30] and my boyfriend as well. If I ever wanted to, you know, talk on Facebook on the Internet. But I never came to the point when I went Oh, my God, I'm stressed because I'm listening to everybody else or about me kind of thing, But no, I was all fine and happy, and I was excited being around new people every day. Were there any kind of reoccurring issues that came up in the interviews? Kind of independently of, of kind of what you were asking, Did you notice any kind of themes coming out? Actually, yes. [00:09:00] I think the biggest thing I've actually learned was was actually in my last question when I I actually asked, um, do you have you ever experienced or received any abuse or abusive behaviour? Because your gender identity or sexuality and, um, the majority, they they've practically said, um, on average, they say that they've got a lot of verbal abuse and that, and the people who have been physically abused say that [00:09:30] they affect, um that the verbal abuse affected them more than the physical abuse. And, uh, she painted a picture that, um how, um, that verbally, uh, affects you more than a punch or, um, being big enough because I guess, um, emotions is more of a emotions, or the more [00:10:00] in the mind is that she is more of their life than the faces on the outside kind of thing. Were there any other surprises? There was always a surprise, but I don't know. And when someone said demisexual, there was a bit a bit of a surprise for me, But, um, I think when I was in New Plymouth, I did an interview that lasted 38 minutes. That was when I realised that. I think that was the biggest surprise. Yeah, [00:10:30] I think, um, another surprise was in. I was interviewing a guy, and, um, they were He were, um there were some when I asked that question. Some people, um he told me that some people were actually outside his garage door once banging on the door just because, um, they knew that two gay people lived in that house, and then they went away and came back with more people to do that. Yeah, [00:11:00] I think that was the biggest surprise. What about funny moments? Oh, there's plenty of funny moments. I, uh I have a very a very all over place. Uh, that's my personality. I'm very all over place. So And that's the same with my emotions at times. But when I'm very, um when I'm having funny moments, I have funny moments, especially with, um well, one of the interviews in, uh, Hamilton. It was the [00:11:30] most hilarious interview ever because we had this. We went off to start talking about How would Lady Gaga collaborate with 30 seconds to Mars and mid interview? I think um I even started thinking closer to the edge of glory. There's the new song. Hey, so you've actually, um, sent me your question list, and I was wondering, would you, uh Would you like me to ask you the same questions? I was waiting for [00:12:00] this. Go ahead. Well, I might skip the first one, which was Hello. How are you today? Well, maybe not. How are you today? I'm tired. I'm I'm actually good. I'm glad that I'm happy that I'm very excited for the tour. I'm very excited that it's almost over at the same time, but I'm excited about the outcome. What's gonna come after the tour? Could you tell me a little bit about yourself? Um, I'm [00:12:30] a fun, bubbly person. Like I said before, I My I'm I'm bit everywhere. So is my emotions, but in a good way. Um, I'm a happy person. I'm a very outgoing person. Uh, I used to. I've lived in Auckland, New Zealand, for the whole of my life, born and bred there and raised. And, um um I always forget how people always answer these questions. [00:13:00] I always do the same thing. What would you like to know? Um, yeah, I'm into pop rock type music. Uh, I used to go to radio school and graduated, which has got this is how I got my experience of doing the whole, um, Q 12, the tour. And I'm currently working at Civic Theatre, and I'm loving it. Next year, I'll be going to a T for events management. Uh, bachelor [00:13:30] of events management, which is a three year course. So Yeah. What gender do you identify with Male, but yeah, male and sexuality. Gay, Very fabulously gay. Uh, this is an interesting question that you've written down here. How do you express yourself? Um, there is a reason why I wrote that down. Um, when I was at the it's actually opened my eyes because, um, there's the thing. How it there's a chart. They [00:14:00] draw a chart for us. How sex, gender, identity, sexuality and expression is completely different things. But at the same time, they all work around each other. It creates a picture for yourself, and it tells you how what you are and what kind of way. But a lot of people, when I actually asked that question, people, um, they're very hesitant of ask answering it. But at the same time, they weren't because when they, uh um, a couple [00:14:30] of people thought that, um I was asking them to label themselves and I was like, um, which There's probably one thing I should have explained a bit more before I answered the I did the interview, but yeah, for me, uh, how I expressed myself. Um, when a couple like last year, I used to be a transvestite, which is a gay. Could be straight or gay person dressed up in girl clothes with, um, and wear [00:15:00] makeup or no makeup, but not in a drag queen type way. Yeah, but, um, I guess I'm in between between masculine and feminine. I'm like my my door. My I'm actually opening a door, but I haven't actually walked through yet. My my arm is through there, but not really kind of thing. Yeah. So you're an open door? Yeah, I'm an open door. Yeah, that's why that's how I express myself an open door. So when did you realise you were going [00:15:30] magical moment? Um, I guess, um I realised that when I was age, because I I guess I went through puberty. quite young as a child. I mean, I started getting erections at the age of age, and so I started having feelings for people for, But I went through a big denial phase that lasted about, [00:16:00] um I can't even remember about 78 years before accepting it, but, um, yeah, I realised, especially when, um, everybody. Everybody was like, there was one girl in class and everybody was like, Wow, she's amazing. And like, I used to lie to myself to say that, but in secret [00:16:30] I was I had a big crush on my best friend. However, I kind of I kept on. I kept on battling myself, which is quite unheard of, really, because I was at the age of eight. It was like 1998 19. No, even before that 2000? Yeah, 2000, 2000, 2001. 2000. Yeah, which is, like, before we had civil union, which was in 2004. So, um, [00:17:00] yeah, I went through a big denial period, and when I turned 13, I was like, Oh, I must be by because I was still lying to myself. I have to be attracted to girls because everybody else is Until this one time when I was experimenting with my friend, as you do so at the age of 13, what was going through your head in terms of your your thinking that you you might be bisexual? Well, [00:17:30] I, I definitely knew I had attractions to guys. And, like, um, but I just couldn't accept myself for being gay at that point because I still I kept on telling my I kept on lying to myself. I have to be. I have to have attractions to girls because this is the normal thing to do. As I fought, I went to, like a very homophobic school, and I had to keep a secret to myself. Where, uh, because, um, they used to be beaten. Gay [00:18:00] people used to be beaten up and Ridic and all the gay people just kept it to themselves and stuff. And but yeah, that was in high school and intermediate school. I was still I was still learning about sexuality, so I don't know. I just watch. I don't know, I could be, but yeah, when I was in high school, I was like, I'm I can't be gay yet. or something like that. So what kind of abuse? Um, would, uh, gay people get around 2006. [00:18:30] You know, the kind of language? Well, um, I went to West Lake Boys High School. I'm not scared of saying that name, because at that time, um, Westlake Boys High School had the reputation of being Homo Hill and saying that everybody that comes out of there is gay. And the that's from all the other schools saying that to them And the best way that, um, the students cope at that school [00:19:00] was to be a homophobic to, um, try and get rid of that reputation. So they're incredibly homophobic, like, um, not not the teachers or anything like that. However, I found out recently the teachers, um um, that school does not allow any, um, diversity groups because they they said, Oh, that that's where all the gay kids will hang out. And people will start being mean to them and the like. We don't allow [00:19:30] religious groups either because of the same reason. And I found out legally, they're not allowed to do that, so yeah. Anyway, um, but yeah, they used They used to like throw stuff at the gay kids and stuff like that. The teachers always supported her sexuality especially, um, because there was the hot teacher and all the guys were staring at her ass and I was the only one doing [00:20:00] the work. And she was like and she went up to me and one once and said, Ben, you're gay, aren't you? And it was like, uh, I'm not entirely sure yet How would you know? And she said, Well, the others are staring at my ass. You're the only one that's actually got in a mirror to my class. So yeah, and so when somebody actually [00:20:30] kind of I, I I'm not sure if the words confronts you with with that saying You're gay, aren't you? Uh, what does that do to you immediately? You'll put up your own your own, um, psychological protector barrier type thing. And you go like, what the fuck thing. But of course it's my teacher. And there's and I knew that there's confidentiality over it, blah, blah, blah, blah. And [00:21:00] so I just had to say yes kind of thing. But I wasn't at that time, I still wasn't sure. So I said I wasn't sure. So when did you become as sure? Um well, when I was seven, my coming out story is, when I became sure was when I came out, which is the next question. As I remember, by coming out story, it was quite interesting when I in 2008 I came out to my [00:21:30] mother through a text message saying that I was by because my sister kind of manipulated me in doing so, which got that out of the way. But I kind of had a plan, like because exactly on the same day a year later, I said I didn't actually realise. But I was actually saying to people that I'm gay and I didn't actually realise until I came to my mother when she came to me. I was like, You've been telling people that you're gay. Are you gay? [00:22:00] I was like, Yes, I. I am gay. And then that's when I actually clicked that I was actually gay. It it was interesting. It was interesting because when I actually realised that I was gay and accepted it, it was the same moment where I actually came out to my mother. So and what happened? Well, she took three months to, like Go. Oh, my God. My my son's gay. And she was She had to get used to the fact that her son's [00:22:30] gonna start wearing makeup now, but, um, after three months, she was fine with it. Um, she's super supportive. Like I've got my adopted dad, Um, who's like my father type thing? Um, he's he's gay and he lives in my garage where, like, recreated the garage so he can actually live in there. And, um, my mom has a T shirt that says, I love my gay son and on the back has a rainbow flag. Just rewind a wee bit. So you're saying that you've got [00:23:00] an adoptive dad who lives in your garage? It's complicated. Uh, I met him at, uh, during when I was in radio school, and he he's he was, like, 45 and he became the father figure because my my biological dad and my mom got divorced when I was like around five, and my dad lives in Sydney. So I and even though my biological dad was there until I was 16, I didn't have a father [00:23:30] figure in my life. Um, throughout. And I kind of resented my dad for a while. I kind of, uh, and a little bit in a way, I could say that I actually hated him for a bit. And then I think recently I've kind of gotten over that, but main mainly, it's because he's now in a different side of the world. He's He lives in Sydney now, and he's travelling Athens. I think Europe or something like that. And, um, I kind of had to accept [00:24:00] it. I accepted it. And that's who he is and stuff like that. Anyway, um, so, uh, me and Carl got closer, and he just became the father figure of my life. And eventually, um uh he needed a place to stay. And I said, Hey, Mom. Well, he met Mom a couple of times and said, Well, Carl needs a place to stay. Can we put in garage? Because he he loves [00:24:30] living garage garages because, um, it's like his own place. It's like his own home. So I we rebuilt the garage into a rumpus room cut type thing and he lives in there. What was the reaction like from other people maybe, uh, the extended family and friends to you coming out. Oh, funny story. My brother before I came out to him, he was quite homophobic. But I think that was him trying to connect with me in a way to try to be funny, because that's his way of doing things. He wanted to [00:25:00] be funny and connect with me. And then I came out to him and he said, I um just as long I don't care if you if you're gay, straight by male female If you vote for labour, this is very much of a national voter. If you vote for labour, labour, green or anything like that, just as long as you don't play Xbox, you're still my brother. He's very anti Xbox. [00:25:30] Um, my sister, she her reaction was like, Oh, OK, another black sheep in the family and I was like, Yeah, right. I'm more of the rainbow one. I'm more brighter than you and my grandparents. I've I It took me two years. I think two years could be two years. Oh, no. It took me a year for me to, um after I came out to actually come out to them [00:26:00] which was because I was very scared to tell Tell them. But, um, I even I actually said OK, I don't want to tell them, Mom, I don't want to tell them. You have to tell them and she did for me and, um and it was quite funny. Mom said, I got some, uh, I wasn't there, but she she told me saying that I've got something to tell you And she said, What? Ben's gay. It was like, Yes, he is. Oh, we've known that for years. [00:26:30] It was quite funny. However, I, I still I think they've realised that they've accepted it. But occasionally they get uncomfortable with it because, like, I've only met one of my boyfriends and he was a very touchy feely type guy. He kept on touching my hair like grooming me and stuff like that and my grandparents. I said to Mom behind my back. Oh, he just keep on touching. He should keep his hands to himself, [00:27:00] which I found it quite funny. Um, my cousins, I don't know I. I don't know. They've assumed so Yeah, And my friends, when I first came out to my friends, they thought that This is a general reaction. Back in, uh, 2009 when I 2010 when I was coming out. Um, the general reaction was, if you come out for a text message, [00:27:30] they think that it was just being hacked. Someone has your phone. And then, um it was quite funny because then they Then they came to me and said, Oh, we thought, um, at first we thought it was that. But then more people started talking about, and then people just start to realise that you're actually gay. I was like, Yes, um, but they all accepted it. And I think the biggest thing was is that one of one [00:28:00] of my friends was very religious and very homophobic, and he said, and the biggest thing was, Well, we didn't talk. We don't talk much now, but it was kind of like a big oh, my God. Moment. So he came to me and said, Oh, we found I found out that you were coming out of the closet. Well, at least you're out now and you get true to yourself, and you're true to everybody else. Which to me, that was him accepting it. So Yeah. And how [00:28:30] did it change you? Well, before I came out, I was very hidden to myself. I. I had scruffy clothes. I looked. I was very chubby and I didn't have I. I guess I was still finding myself in a way. And well, after I changed, after I came out of the closet, I just styled myself up. I came out of the closet with good style, changed my hair, [00:29:00] straightened it practically every day. And I was glamorous. Every step footsteps I took, I got trail was following, I guess. And then I started getting camper because I that's at the time, I thought that was how I was supposed to be. But then I become me. So, yeah. Do you think it's easier now with, um, so much kind of queerness in kind of media and people quite openly talking about, you know, [00:29:30] gay, lesbian, transgender, uh, amongst you know, friends and and workmates? Is it easier now to come out? Do you think? Well, I don't know, uh, I wasn't very involved. A lot of it's quite strange because I wasn't very involved with the gay community at all until, um, 2000 late 2010 when I first went to Rain Youth in October 2010 and then And then I started going to groups until then, So I [00:30:00] don't really I don't know if I can actually answer that question, because people, um, I've noticed when I was on tour, a lot of people, even when they're not even out they evolve the gay community and, um, which made it easier for them, I guess. I guess these days it is easier to come out than it was back when I was because I had no knowledge of the gay community at all. So now [00:30:30] it's more a bit more open these days. And yeah, what prompted you to go to somewhere like youth? Uh, a friend on Bebo was the big thing in 2009, 2010. And then Facebook came along, but, um, someone was like, uh, it was a friend on Bebo. I think it was some random. It was like, Come on, I need to take you to Rainbow. It wasn't even a group or anything. It was just into the drop in centre, so I can, you know, say, like, Hi, I'm been la la da da da [00:31:00] da da car thing. And, yeah, had you experienced, um, a kind of an environment where there were just lots of gay people before. No, it was the big When I first went into, uh, LGBT group, I was like, um I was like, Hey, I know you. I know you. I don't know the rest of you. I was like, Well, well, but this was when we were in a coffee shop, so it was a little bit more [00:31:30] open and everything like that, but which has changed. Now everything's more. They have their own centre or not their own centre, but they have a little venue for themselves. But, um, I've never I didn't It didn't actually become a bit of a shock for me. I just fit right in. So, yeah. Can you recall how you felt? Um, just walking in there for the first time. Um I mean, I've seen walking [00:32:00] in. I was very nervous going into, like, the drop in centre for the first time because I used to, like, go, like walking up and down, just like, oh, I won't go in there but I can't. So I just bugger off somewhere else. And then someone just, like, practically pushed me through the door. So I was very scared. But now, but then when I got through, I was fitting in. So yeah, it it's there's a psychological door that I couldn't get through. Yeah. What do you think? Uh, organisations [00:32:30] like Rainbow Youth. What what value do they have for, um, LGBT youth? Um, they have big value, because I guess, um, about rainbow you if we wouldn't have a way to connect with each other. And I guess that's one thing that, um, we all and the rest of me, especially when we're much older because we forget about how we came together. Well, how I came together with the group [00:33:00] with the gay community, and that was with rain, youth and rain. Youth is actually great value because they do bring the gay community together, or the young gay community together. It's like the introduction into the gay community. I find it quite interesting. Um, when you were talking before about your adoptive dad and how, um, there's that kind of intergenerational thing going on, and I wonder, I mean is there? You know, in your [00:33:30] experience, has there been much of that where, you know, you've actually interacted with across generations in the kind of queer community? Well, he was. My adopted dad was the first stepped into the meeting Older, um, meeting older people who are more mature than me to actually talk about what happened in, like, Pre-law Reform was on the ground and stuff like that. So and that kind of after meeting Carl, [00:34:00] it was more of a big eye opener because I was saying to learn more things about gay history because I was like, I was clueless about the gay history until I met Carl and, well, things kept on. Um um I kept on, like, learning about things that happened in the past. And yeah and I. I think, um, it's good to because he was a became a good mentor for me as well as a father figure. [00:34:30] Speaking of, uh, relationships, I'm moving on to the next questions on your list. And I was just wondering. So the next question you have, um, is, um, all about relationships, and I'm wondering, um, you know, have you ever been in a in a relationship before and And when was that Fuck I've been in many relationships. Um, there is There is a thing, um, relation to I've kind of actually, [00:35:00] I had to reword the question from how many relationships you've been in, How many flis you've been in because a lot of people kept on changing, Um kept on having different opinions and relationships. And when I changed the question, everybody agreed with it so well, actually, it was unanimous how I actually changed the questions and they agreed with me how there's a difference between a relationship where it's fully serious and there's a fling which a fling would probably be less than a month, and [00:35:30] a relationship was fully over a month. So I guess when it comes to fling I've seen and I 13, 12 flings and I've been in four relationships. Yeah, my longest relationship was six months on and off, which was like it was, like, on and off. And then there was a full, um, [00:36:00] another. And two relationships were like four months. One of them was on and off. One was completely four months and one another. One was like two months. I think, And then the rest were like Flink. Uh, I went through a lot of relationships I've had. I used to be a sex addict when I was when I first came out I I attracted to the gay community like metal and a magnet, and I guess I was still I didn't actually know [00:36:30] what love was until I dated someone. I think that lasted a month or so and which he broke up with me and I was devastated. And that was, I guess, my first death on becoming a mature person, having my heart broken for the first time kind of thing. And then I guess I mean, like, this year, I've tried dating, Like, last year. I tried dating, like, 10 people, and before that was like, [00:37:00] four. This year, I've only dated like I tried to date two people, but they only lasted four weeks, so yeah, and I'm in a I'm in the relationship right now. That's in in the third week, so nothing serious, but, you know, Yeah, but, um, yeah, I wonder if that whole thing of you know, uh, when you come out, you just kind of well, for some people they They just really hit the scene and really seek out [00:37:30] a lot of partners. And I mean, that happens both at a young age and also when people come out at an older age. Uh, do you? Do you think that's, um, something to do with just kind of, um, these kind of pent up feelings suddenly being allowed to exist? I think more. It's it it could be. But I think my thoughts is I think people are trying to find themselves in a way they're trying to find what love is they're trying to find, um, what type of the gay community, even [00:38:00] though it's small, it's actually big. There's so much variety like there's, um, the gay community is very like in categories, which is it's quite funny because even though it's so small, we're big enough to actually go against each other, Which someone told me once saying that when the gay community got their rights to be who they are these days, they you know, you think, um, these days before the [00:38:30] marriage thing went to parliament, they were fighting against each other because they can't find anything to unify each other with and so the only thing they could fight as each other. But, um uh, I think it's because people are find a bit finding myself of themselves, Like for myself. I That's how I did it. It's because that's what I think it is. It's because I was trying to find myself, and [00:39:00] it was more like I didn't until recently. This year. That's when I became I became properly mature, and I actually found myself. I know what I want. I know. Yeah, you've mentioned relationships being more than a month flings being around less than a month. Are there things? Are there things? Are there names for things that are kind of less than you know, like a week? [00:39:30] A quick fuck? Um, no, I think it's a very short fling, But, um, I think I think, um, a lot of people, uh, have a a lot of people have different, um, different ideas for a relationship. And fling is, however, it's very close together that unanimous that there is such thing as flings and relationships there. Yeah, but the time difference is a bit different. [00:40:00] However, I heard there was this. There was this YouTube video saying How to break up with someone. And, um, they he said that if you're breaking up with him within the week, it will be OK to send a text message. If it's over a week, it's OK to give them a call. If it's over a month, you need to do it in person or you break their heart and you become an asshole. Yeah. How are you meeting people? How? What are the ways of of meeting people nowadays? [00:40:30] Um, big way is NZD manhunt grinder who just just go back. Uh, so NZD is what? New Zealand dating dot com manhunt dating dot com or dot net, I think one of the two and there's an iPhone, um, iPod touch app thing, or android called grinder, which is the biggest thing ever because it's like the closest person to you. And it actually finds you, um, like [00:41:00] it brings up, like, doesn't bring up Google maps, But it goes with Google maps like the GPS kind of thing, and it locates the closest person to you, but it doesn't tell you where they are, but yeah, it's the closest person. Yeah. Also, um, meeting a lot of people I've met a lot of people in person through friends. And Facebook helps a lot, especially with the tours Facebook. Hm. So with something like grinder, you could then say you might be sitting in the movies or whatever, and it would tell you who's in the room, [00:41:30] Not necessarily because they have. They would have to have grinder as well, and you need to have Internet to to use it. So if if the grinder is on and your grinder is on, then yes, then it will come up with, like saying this person is three metres away or something like that. And it's free for coffee. Well, it comes up. Well, everybody. Every profile is different. There's like some people say NSA, which [00:42:00] is no strings attached. It's mainly a hookup site. More than anything else, but not not, not really, uh, some Some people are actually taken, and they're just looking for friends. So, yeah, so, uh, you've got, uh, NSA. What? What are some of the other, uh, little acronyms? Um, like for manhunt? They have a whole list. I can't even remember most of them because it's a big list [00:42:30] like, um, but it's just practically tell, um, say every single sexual thing that you can imagine, like as a tick box or anything like that. So what's the most people you've encountered on grinder? Like what kind of event? Oh, I, I haven't actually really went to an event to actually look for grinder. But however, um, I want to try one day this. I actually do want to try one day, go to the big day out and turn on my grinder to see how many people are so close [00:43:00] together. But yeah, but I haven't, actually, um oh, the most, Actually, the most I can actually say is that a family gay bars birthday? I think there was, like, four people in one room that had the grinder on at the same time. But yeah, coming to the next question on your list of questions that you were actually asking people on the tour. And I'm not sure if it would be a question that I would have ever thought of. Kind of asking, [00:43:30] which was, you know, what's your definition of virginity? And I'm wondering how you came up with that question and and kind of, uh, the responses, but also what your response would be. But everybody has a different opinion on it to everybody. And it's something about sex. And I think I can't go. I me Personally. I felt too uncomfortable to ask him about what type of sex they were into or stuff like that. So the next best thing was to ask them their [00:44:00] their personal opinion on virginity and, well, there were so many responses. But everything always started off. Um, every guaranteed, every single, um, interview started off. It was like, uh, exactly like that. I don't know. I haven't thought about it before. Well, there was. There's three that did that, but, um, a lot of reactions were like purity, [00:44:30] um, about being pure. A lot of people saying it's the first time they found love is not necessarily a sexual thing. Some people say it's an emotional thing. Some people, it's a physical thing. Some people, it's a religious thing. I think my favourite reaction up reaction, Um, answer was, um, one of them, which is my favourite interview, was, um, when someone was talking about virginity, how virginity was [00:45:00] was really something back in the olden days, where it was a lot of value to a female when they, um because a virgin was a big thing. It was like, Hm. And like especially like no sex before marriage type thing. But And he thought that virginity doesn't have any value these days, which I disagree because I think my personal opinion and virginity I think there's not virginity [00:45:30] is hard to define because I think there's more than one definition of virginity. I think there's completely a lot of meanings to virginity. I do agree with the fact that the first time you fall in love, you can lose your virginity. There is sexual virginity. When you 1st, 1st time you had sex and there's also the random virginity. Like the first time I went to a Lady Gaga concert kind of thing. I lost my gaga virginity. Yeah, so, yeah, that's my definition. [00:46:00] It's the three definition. My three definitions random First time you fall in love the first time you have sex and it's penetration for not yeah, and then getting from that question on your list to the the the next question, um, which is about, um, being abused, you know, have you been abused in any way whether it's physical, mental, sexual. Um, how did people respond to that? Well, I've put abuse as as the [00:46:30] last one, because it's the most difficult question throughout the whole thing. A few people, um, had problems with it, but they told told it a coup. Um, like, after the interview, there was one and specifically, um, one broke down in tears straight afterwards, which, um, which was fine later. But, um, luckily, not during the interview. But a lot of a lot of people were OK with answering [00:47:00] because they want, um, because even though they had to tell their, um, tell them it was more of like it was the past. It's not happening anymore kind of thing. Yeah. And how would you answer that question for me? Um, I never was really physically abused. Uh, I was I've never really was emotionally abused. When when it comes to that either. I mean, there was always the people that try to scream out faggot and stuff like that, and I was like, Yeah, I am well done. [00:47:30] Well done. But I never really was abused. Now, at the end of the North Island tour and after doing 47 interviews, which is just amazing and three more to come. So you 50 all up? Uh, what are your thoughts? I mean, how do you think it went? I think it went amazing. Uh, it was tiring, but amazing. I loved every second of it. I'm still very I'm glad it's over, but [00:48:00] I'm not at the same time because it was a fun tour of meeting so many people. And in fact, I wish I could actually do it again. I probably will do just do one big holiday, just travelling all around the North Island. But yeah, that's that's really my thoughts on it.

IRN: 597
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089287
TITLE: Grant - Older Gay Men
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VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: John Kelly
TAGS: 1940s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; John Kelly; World War 2; ageing; coming out; death; depression; elder care; elder issues; elders; family; gay; growing up; health; health system; legacy; mental health; older age; parents; relationships; rest homes; sex; suicide; support
DATE: 12 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Grant talks about caring for his elderly partner.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: At the age of 50. In your fifties, you're not an older person, but you're here because you're a partner of Ray, who is 88 years old. He was born in 1924. So we'll be talking about issues surrounding his care and any problems you have in dealing with it all. As half of a gay couple first, what what age related problems does Ray have? I guess I need to say at the beginning he has an underlying Crohn's [00:00:30] disease, and this has been going since he was 60. But but now, as an older person, there are things that have come up prostate cancer, which they can't operate on. Um, there's, um, skin, um, cancers that they can remove. Sometimes he has, um, um, macular degeneration. And what's happened is that one of his eyes has actually [00:01:00] collapsed, and now it's gone. He's gone blind out of that eye. The other eye. He's slowly losing the eyesight, and and every so often they have an injection which keeps things in tow. And the, um, he has a level of balancing. Um, but then this is, I guess, related to, um, that he has dementia, vascular dementia and that plays havoc with your brain and so on [00:01:30] and over all these. He has, um, a level of depression that comes and goes. He has some ways of dealing with it. Um, and we're not on any medication. He's not on any medication with that, um, we've spoken to his doctor, and Ray has clearly said that he doesn't want to go on any any medication to do to to do with that. When you guys, uh, your relationship has been going for 14 years and you started [00:02:00] off in set separate homes, When did that change it? It actually changed When, um well, well, Ray had ended up by being put on a rest time because he had, um, had major, um, pro health problems. And while he was in the hospital, they suggested he go into a rest home and after, um, about eight months in the rest home. Um, I, [00:02:30] um, had been during that eight months, I'd been running his house, mowing the lawns, and so on. I'd been, um, doing my own house, the lawns and and he has cats. Um, and also I'd be visiting him every day, So it was quite stress. And I moved into his house just to reduce my running around and And that, and, um, as soon as I moved into, uh, his house, he decided he was going to move home to [00:03:00] his own house because there was going to be someone there to look after him. Um, and this was, um um, in early, Um uh, 2, 2010, I think. Yeah, a couple of years ago, when he was in, was he in a rest home? Did you say yes? He was in a rest home. Um, the the rest home was recommended to him, Uh, when he was in the hospital, the hospital suggested I go and look at, [00:03:30] um, some rest homes. They suggested one particular rest home, and I said he suggested another. And they said, um, I think you should go and look at this restaurant first. So? So I followed their advice, Uh, which I think was really good advice. And, um um, the rest home, uh, was a nice place. I spoke to the manager, and, um, she, uh, quickly ascertained that [00:04:00] we were a gay couple. And, um, so right from the beginning, she was aware of Ray and my, um relationship. Um, and then further through the the time when Ray was there, um, she said there's an article that had come in about, um, gay and gays in the rest home and some of the things she showed me, she was horrified that the potentially people weren't. [00:04:30] Um uh she didn't think that people were given the true information because she she felt that her rest home, um, was sensitive enough to cater for all people. I said to her, even if someone had, um um HIV or AIDS And she said, There's no difference. People are people are people. And I thought, Well, this is really, um a nice private rest home so that obviously there are [00:05:00] rest homes around that can can deal with that. Um, Anyway, uh, as I said earlier, as soon as I moved into Ray's house, um, he decided he no longer wanted to be in the rest home. And, um, he was he's back home again, which, which gave him, gave him a lot more energy. And, um, but with his cats and and all all that well, how how has your own life changed? then? Well, I, I had a, um a small business, [00:05:30] um, greeting cards business. And, um, I found that trying to look after Ray and, um, run the business was just way beyond a joke. So So I, um, I let the business go go, uh, business. Go. Uh, I actually gave it away to various people. And, um, and has been looking after Ray full time. When when did he retire? Was the early eighties. Is that right? Um, yeah, there was, um um he was in the clothing industry and the the cotton that he was in, [00:06:00] um, closed down, and, um and he found it quite frustrating. Um, not having anything to do, uh, And he found he a friend of his, uh was, um, second hand goods for sale. And he looked up, worked with him for a while, and, um, then that's when he was diagnosed with, um, the crows. Can you tell me anything about Ray's early life? Any of the stories he told you? [00:06:30] Oh, yeah, he he told me all sorts of stories. I'll try and remember some of them. The one that, um I think is really funny was, um often people would get together on, uh, Saturday afternoon or or on Sunday afternoon. And, um, they'd be drinking parties and so on. One of the friends, um, seemed to be an organiser of people, and and he would organise, um, people to bring different plates to make [00:07:00] up the meal. And, um, he would, um he would have, They would have, um, um, glass and crockery and and silver. And one occasion, they took all these over to a nearby cemetery and sat in the cemetery and, um and, uh, and enjoyed the meal and the passers by and they'd wave out and and, um, it's just sounds like a fun sort of fun time. That was that was gay times. What? What year? What [00:07:30] year would that be? Roughly. Oh, I. I think it would be in the, um, in the fifties. Maybe early sixties. Well, I know he was gay from an early age. Yeah. Now, um, the the things that he he told me is there, um as, um, kids. He would he would play with other boys. And, um, when you say, play with other boys, you mean play with other boys, as in sexually? Yes, um and, [00:08:00] uh, there were, um, people that he would remember, and he knew that they went off to war. Second World War. Um, and some of them never returned. And there were others that came back and got married. And and he just couldn't understand why someone that he had been so intimate with with, um would suddenly change the side of the fence or whatever expression is, I don't know, right? Um and [00:08:30] there were there was a friend, um, that had a, um a holiday batch, and they would all go out. Um, spend the time on the holiday beach, uh, for weekends and and Christmas times. And there was one. I don't know the story very well, but but there was, um um they had a, like, a a rowboat. And these guys were in the rowboat. And and then, um, one of the other neighbouring batches yelled out, Um, there [00:09:00] go the queens. And then they said they were the river boat queens. OK, I wonder where that was. That was probably on, wasn't it? They've been going down there for a long, long time. I think has been there for a long time, isn't it when you two got together. Did you have any thoughts of the future? And in that did you and in any way anticipate the problems you're encountering now because of your age difference? Um, no. [00:09:30] No. Um, in in fact, um, when I entered the relationship, I knew that Ray had a lot more money and property than I had. And I said to him that should things change, I'm quite happy just to walk away and leave with nothing. That's what we discuss with that. Um, And then, um, as time went by that well, um, has raised health deteriorated of more recent times. So, um, we found, [00:10:00] um, health problems. And there was no way that I could even consider not, you know, being there for him and the fact that, um, we got so close and we talked about things so much. Um, I just had to I knew I had to be there for him. So, um, it wasn't something that we discussed when we got together, but it was something that became, um, just a part of the relationship is when you we felt we cared [00:10:30] about each other and we were so honest around our situations. For example, when, um, we were having sex and Ray had had a prostate. Um, what do you call it when they they investigate the area with a needle? Um, and, um, he he had blood coming out of an area which you normally don't have blood coming out, and, um, gave me a fright. And and so from that point on, we decided that we would honestly talk about absolutely everything [00:11:00] that would that was going on for for both of us. So you've spoken about dying as well? Um, more, more of recent times. Yeah, well, well, the thing is, at one stage, Ray said, um, well, I'm gonna die. And then, um, health issues would come along, and then they'd say, Oh, I wish I could die. I wanna die. And, um um And so it started. We started talking about What are we going to [00:11:30] do when what his needs are when he dies? Like, um, the the ashes. Um I mean, his, um whether he gets cremated or whether he gets buried. And he decided that ashes were the best way. And it meant I knew where I had to find out where they were going to go. And we initially thought somewhere in Auckland, But then, um, talking further, he wanted to his his ashes to be with his parents. And so, um, it took [00:12:00] a little bit to to juggle that. And, um uh, it meant that I, um, met one of his nieces. And, um, there was a, um, a little bit concerned about that, because because by going and seeing her, I'm actually coming out to Ray's, um, Ray's niece. But also Ray's coming out in the process. And the fact that here a man of his in his eighties is coming out to his niece, um is [00:12:30] kind of a was was kind of a funny scary to him, I think. But, yes, I did. Uh, Ray looked after his parents for a long time, I think. Well, his mother, his father, died when he was, um, about six. he he his father died of a brain haemorrhage. No brain haemorrhage. Um, can, uh, tumour. Um And, um so he actually can only remember one have only one memory of his father. Um, and so, um, [00:13:00] when ray was a child, he looked after his mother And then he had the, um the fortunate He was in the fortunate situation that people weren't or his mother wasn't expecting him to get married because he was looking after her so he could remain as a single man and get away with it quite legitimately with everyone. And and, um and his mom was happy that he was, um, still looking after him and so on. [00:13:30] So he was never pressured to get married then? Oh, absolutely not. No, his mother would have Would have gone along with it, but she would have been very unhappy because we would be here. The person that looked after her, Indeed, when he was in the clothing industry, Um, I think he would have had some. He worked with a lot of women, didn't he? Yeah. Um, any stories about that? Um Well, yeah, the the what was what was quite interesting. And this is the things that he said that [00:14:00] he would, um, they would ask him to go dancing because they knew that they were safe. They That wasn't, um They didn't feel it. Didn't feel as though, um, he was going to try and take advantage of them. and, uh, there was actually 11 person at the at the factory. She liked to go dancing. And at one stage, Ray was boarding with, um with her and her husband. And, um, [00:14:30] he Ray would take her out to the the dance hall or whatever wherever they went. Um, and the husband was quite happy to stay at home, and it was kind of an odd situation, so, you know, But But he knew that the husband knew that his wife was safe because he was going out with Ray, although I don't think they ever discussed anything about homosexuality. But it was assumed then that they knew you. Ray assumed that he knew that they knew he was gay, [00:15:00] but But it wasn't discussed a lot of stuff in the times that this weren't discussed. Well, considering your age is now you're in your fifties and Ray is 88. Do you still have a sex life? Oh, yeah, actually, what's what's kind of interesting is, and I guess it's part of the dementia because there's a lot of things that Ray can't do. Um uh, the things that he can do is is things sexually [00:15:30] and And so, um, three, the day or the night, Um, I get manhandled quite a lot. How do I, um And, um that sometimes that I have to ask him just to be a little more around it. So So, Yeah, we we do still have a, um an active, um, sex life. I think, um, [00:16:00] I find it, um um, quite amazing, because I would have never thought someone of 88 still, um, en enjoying and and, um, wanting to participate in in a sex life. There's hope for us all. Yes, absolutely. When, uh, when you you and Ray talk to each other, Is he happy that you're looking after him? That's a silly question. Of course he is. But he worries. He worries [00:16:30] about you, doesn't he? Yeah, well, sometimes he said to me, um and are Are you sure you want to be with me? And, um uh, that, uh, he's asking genuinely. And I know, um, where he's come from because he wants me to be, um, um, happy about life and that. And I always say, Yes, because I do. I feel [00:17:00] I'm happy to be with him. Um, part of it is that he brings a lot of, um, a lot of fun and and joy. He's He's in the old sense of the term gay. He's he's quite a gay character. He's He's a very happy person. Um, and I think, um, I think the fact that it's a question that gets asked is often in in any relationship, gay [00:17:30] or straight, Um, people don't ask the other partner, Do they want to be in that relationship? And Ray is genuinely, genuinely asking me if I'm really happy to be with him in this relationship. It's wonderful. How does Ray think of himself in in terms of what? How would he describe himself as a gay man? The terms have changed over the years, certainly since he was born. [00:18:00] Camp used to be a very strong word that is not used anymore or not used much to describe yourself these days. No, I don't think he looks of himself as as being gay or straight. He just he just a person that's being true to himself. And, um, is that what you're meaning? Well, yes, I was wondering whether he thought of himself as gay queer as a homosexual. [00:18:30] He doesn't bother to think about it. I guess gay is the term that he's comfortable with. He hasn't said about gay or queer or any other term. How about you? As a matter of interest, how do you think of yourself? Oh, gay OK, yes, it's usually a very commonly accepted word these days, I think. What advice would you personally give to anyone contemplating a relationship with an older [00:19:00] man? Well, it's it it it's actually becomes a, um to to your relationship. Uh, I think I never thought of that when I got into a relationship with Ray, but But that's the situation that I'm in now. And and we actually talk about, um, yeah, the fact that one of us is gonna die now the thing that I guess concerns [00:19:30] me a little bit because, um, years ago I had a stroke and the possibility that I died. Then I see that it could be either it could be me, or it could be Ray, even though, um, that's a situation. Um, Ray would certainly be cared for. He he'd obviously at his age, he'd have to go into a home, wouldn't he? Yes, he would. And and This is one area that he absolutely hates. The fact that, um, I'm at home with him. [00:20:00] Um, um, he has a lot more energy being being in the home environment, His own home. Um, and I notice that when he goes away for two weeks to spite, um, while I need a break, his depression kicks in. He says, um, I wish I could die. Um, all these things and the fact that visitors do come and see him, he [00:20:30] doesn't remember the visitors now with his dementia. And, um uh, there was there was one time when he was actually in in a live in situation where he was concerned that people would come in and kill him because being a gay man, Um, and I guess it's all, um, being away from his home environment. He's like, at the house he's in. He's been in the same house [00:21:00] for over 60 years. Um, it's got so many memories. He's done a lot of things to the house. Um, and, um, there's a There's a sense of security in his own home, and he certainly he certainly doesn't get that from being in, uh, in a rest home um, see the kind of dementia that he has. The vascular dementia. Um, he he know he remembers what he doesn't remember. And, um, [00:21:30] and things of being at home with us. I. I guess a lot of gay people have pets, as as their Children and rays always had the cats as his Children. And, um, the Children are there with him, so yeah, he's a big garden, too, which used to take up an enormous amount of his time. Probably takes an enormous amount of your time these days. Does he still enjoy his garden? Absolutely. Yes. We're, um we're enjoying [00:22:00] the, um there's the magnolia that's in full bloom at the moment. Um, it's, um I don't know what to kind of make do. And there's a number of chameleon trees that are that him and his mother planted. Um, and and these these trees all have a history to him, um, of where the where the plants came from and the reason that they got that one because his mother liked the flowers and and so on, he raised Ray's life at home with his mother as a gay man. [00:22:30] How did how did he manage that. He just said he was going to the pictures. Um, was never, never discussed. His mother didn't know anything. Um, and, um, he would be going out with friends often or to the pictures. Um, and no, it was it was never discussed. The fact that Ray was there and was looking after her was all she wanted. So was he able to bring friends home? [00:23:00] I don't mean to be, but but did did. Yes. He did have friends visit, visit him, and, um, he at one stage, he had somebody staying with them. And, um uh, I think one one time they got sort of caught out, but, um, because because the mother liked the the the young man. Then certain things were overlooked. Anything else you want to talk [00:23:30] about with Ray about Ray before we finish? Um, Well, yeah, I, I guess that, um What's what's really nice is the support that we're getting, um, we get, um, support from public service. And, um, we've got, um, um the health department. And, um, we have a person coming in with showering because of raised balance. Um, and [00:24:00] what? What I've found is when people know that we're a gay couple. And, um, the history of gay people is that often when people get to a stage where their health deteriorates and and going into any institution like a rest home or so on is, um, committing suicide is the is the easy option out of that, um, a lot of gay. Well, I've heard a number of people say that that's how they're going to end their life. [00:24:30] Now, that's something that Ray and I have talked about. And Ray said that he just doesn't feel like he would want to commit suicide to to get out of this, Um, uh, the situation he's in, but there are times he'd like to die, but he's certainly not going to do it. No. No. And because of that, um, we have, um the mental health, um, come in and and help us in in in lots of ways, like services that they, um, they [00:25:00] offer, There's, um um there's also a men's group that he goes to, which is with, um, older men with dementia, and, uh, at this stage, he's the only gay one there. But the the fact that, um, he can go somewhere and feel a little bit more, um, alive about being with. He was accepted as a gay man in that group. Well, they don't know that I, I guess the one. The one thing that Ray [00:25:30] is really upset about is that, um, his friends of years. He said he wishes that they would visit him and and hardly any visit him now, particularly with his dementia, because he he asked, he asks the same questions. You know, um, over and over again. I think I think that that some of us who visit him and not he doesn't remember that we've done it. No, he doesn't. But the fact that, um, at home, um, we really [00:26:00] have people come in to see him. He is one person that that comes in, but, um um, because Ray is seen as being looked after at home, then they don't need to go and visit him. And and that's the times that, um, we thought of be nice to have it. And that's and I guess that's why it's really important that I have this men's group that he can go to. So he has a level of socialisation, um, that he would otherwise miss out on.

IRN: 596
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/older_gay_men_donald_stenhouse.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003992
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089286
TITLE: Donald Stenhouse - Older Gay Men
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Donald Stenhouse
INTERVIEWER: John Kelly
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Donald Stenhouse; Jim Courtney; John Kelly; LSD; Older Gay Men; Queer Stories Our Fathers Never Told Us (2011 oral history project); Scotland; Sigmund Freud; Tanzania; United Kingdom; ageing; drug therapy; elder issues; elders; family; gay; health; health system; homosexual law reform; mental health; mental illness; older age; relationships; retirement
DATE: 4 September 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Don talks about what it's like to be an older gay man. Don died on 7 January 2018.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My childhood from the age of one onwards was in, uh, Tanzania, as it's now called. But it was in those days, Tanika and then, uh, from my teenage years were in in Scotland. So what? So what school of schooling did you have? Good question. Well, the schooling in Tanika was pretty extraordinary. As you can imagine, this this was during [00:00:30] World War Two, and I mean a remote outpost of the Empire. It wasn't really able to command, um, a set of very good teachers. However, they did their best, and, uh, it was quite chaotic, but I did learn something. So at what point in your life did you realise you were gay? Um, I think at the onset of puberty, [00:01:00] it's I mean, it only dawned on me slowly, and I can't say that there were would have been any particular point when, uh, I there was a sort of, uh, you know, a bright light suddenly switched on. Oh, that's what I am. So there were any gay issues arising from your the jobs you had ever not. Not that I'm aware of, [00:01:30] um, in the sense that I was just accepted for who I was, um, And what people could make what they liked of that they didn't I. I didn't let everybody know I was gay, But quite a few people either guessed or ended up knowing, and that didn't cause any trouble, right? You had you had interviews with a psychiatrist at once in your life, didn't you? Can you tell me about that? Well, [00:02:00] um, this is by the time I was getting really quite troubled by being gay, um, and I had sort of moved away quite quickly from the kind of religious attitude to, uh, being gay the sort of punitive it's forbidden, Uh, and was interested in and a little inclined to accept the medical model that it was some sort of psychiatric illness. [00:02:30] So I thought right, Well, I'll go and see a psychiatrist, and, uh, he was a very kind man who agreed to see me and, uh, but was sort of Freudian. And so there were long sessions of free association, and I was not very good at that. Um, I don't know how you what being good at. It means, but but, uh, I [00:03:00] was pretty sure I wasn't. I think I was a very uptight and inhibited, young fella, and not really able to free associate easily. Um, and I think my interpretation of this may be wrong, but I think it towards the in the end, he got fed up of me, thought, Well, I'm never going to get anywhere with this fellow. He was, of course, trying to cure me. Which it was a mistake on his part. Uh, and as far as he was concerned, you know, it [00:03:30] was going nowhere. So he thought, Well, why don't I offer him LSD? That might disinhibit him a bit. And so I had four LSD trips which you haven't forgotten about. No, I have not. They were wonderful and did Did it teach him? Did he learn anything about after the end of that? Uh, I left his care. I was grateful to him. [00:04:00] I mean, he had he tried to care for me, and he had done his best. But I think the only benefit I obtained from it all was apart from knowing what an LSD trip was like, um, was that I'd had to get up and go to do something rather than just wallowing around and increasing levels of self pity. Or so you must. You must have confirmed in your own mind then that that gayness was all right. Was that round? About [00:04:30] that time I stopped worrying, I thought, and in particular, I stopped worrying partly because I happened to be reading some Freud. And, uh, I read a letter Freud had written to obviously a gay man's mother and his mother had written to Freud. And, uh, Freud said, stop worrying about it. You know, um, there been lots of gay people in history. [00:05:00] Um, there's nothing wrong with them and just let him get on with life. And your Freudian man tried to. He did? Yes. So there's a paradox there. He maybe hadn't read that letter. Maybe not. No. So are you. Are you currently in a stable relationship? How long have you been in that? Um, I think about eight years, right? And as as you're getting older [00:05:30] as you without a so-called nuclear family present, does it present any problems? I think it does. Yes. Um, you see, my family are all in Scotland, and, uh, I would be very happy if, in fact, they were here. Uh, but I but I'm not aware of any problems that I can't deal with, at least at the moment. So what support are you going to need as [00:06:00] you get older? Uh-huh. Ok, well, well, actually, um, can you tell us something about your health, then? All right. Well, my health, uh, has been in recent years. Uh, the only word I can say is chaotic. Um, I've got oh, what's it called? Temporal lobe epilepsy. And in addition to that, I'm developing Parkinson's [00:06:30] disease, on top of which I have what is laughably called benign, essential tremor. And there's something else I can't remember even what it is now. That's enough to be going on with that. That's going to create a few problems. I think it will. So how are you going to deal with it? I don't know. I haven't thought that II I do think about it. But then I think Well, um, whatever [00:07:00] happens in the future is so unpredictable, and the rate at which it happens is too unpredictable for me to to think. Give it any sensible thought. So like a lot of people, sometimes if the problem is too hard, you just don't try and solve it. Um, have you thought of where you're going to live when you can't live in your present house? Yes. Given that some thought, [00:07:30] um, we've my partner and I have been looking at retirement villages. Right. And I think it will have to be something along those lines. Uh, I can't imagine anything other than that, at least being available in contemporary New Zealand. What sort of place are you looking for? And or I'll I'll broaden that a little bit. Do you? Would you Would you look for a gay friendly one? Would you look for a gay run one [00:08:00] if there was a gay run Run? Um, uh, yes, I I Well, I'd be interested to have a look at it. I I I'm quite interested in an initiative that seems to be developing for, uh, a a gay retirement environment. Um, I can't help feeling that will be a very difficult thing to unscramble, because there will be [00:08:30] a lot of problems. Yeah, um, and maybe a gay friendly one would be more significant. And I think from my observations anyway, that they all the people who have shown us, um, villas or flat or apartments or whatever, have not better to deny it, that we're obviously a gay couple that hasn't concerned them at all. I think what would probably [00:09:00] be more likely to happen is that some of the other elder elderly people would be living in the past and might might be a bit hard to handle. Yes, this could be interesting, couldn't it? There is apparently a gay, um, and Lesbian Retirement Village either being built or, uh already built in in Victoria in Australia, so [00:09:30] but I don't know what the status of that is. But I think if if people are going to start looking for some sort of arrangement here, they'd be very wise to go over there and have a look. Yes, it would be interesting. Um, gay males and and gay ladies living together, too, because normally there's not a lot of lot of mix in New Zealand. No, uh, I can see why, too, Um, I, I would foresee two problems. One is that the women live much longer than men, [00:10:00] and so they would almost certainly develop. Uh, if it didn't start that way, they would almost certainly develop AAA majority of lesbian rights and well that I think might present trouble. Actually, there's a lot of times I think that that problem exists already there's more and more women than, um, Have you made a watertight will? In other words, that your your [00:10:30] family is, uh, couldn't overturn if they wanted to. Because you're gay. I hope so. I've tried to you. You you've had that in mind? Yes, Fair enough. But I It's my belief that neither my brother nor his offspring would even dream of trying to overturn it. But people do behave very strangely. Unfortunately, it does happen, doesn't it? So you've [00:11:00] You're doing the best to provide for your future. You've probably done that all your working life. Actually, I think I'm quite comfortable. Ok, um, if you were suddenly single, what would you do? Oh, I can't answer that. I think I would, uh, I've always felt, uh, this was something my sister, uh, taught me. If that's the right word, uh, that the the best compliment you can pay, [00:11:30] Uh, a dead partner is to in in due course, uh, form another partnership. Ok, um, you know, you do get people who sort of maybe women more prone to do this than men. I'm not sure but who Who feel that if they would be betraying the previous relationship if they formed another one, and so they never do. But I, I don't think that's the case at all. I think it's [00:12:00] a compliment to the previous relationship if you enter another one in due course. So I suppose I would want, uh, to find somebody else but it. But, you know, at the age of 75 Yes, your choice is restricted. Your options are OK. What would you What would you change in your life if you could? I think I would have [00:12:30] preferred a different career. Really? Yes. I don't mean not medicine, but, um, the specialty I would most like to have done is the one that in fact, would apply to me now. And that is neurology. Paradoxically, um but but to do I did did look into it. And the option I was given was to go to London [00:13:00] to Queen Square Hospital for nervous diseases. I think it used to be called and study neurology there. And I. I didn't really want to go back to Britain. We're talking about moving countries. You you were offered a job in Melbourne. At one stage I talk about that, um, and your reasons for not not I. I did part of my training as a specialist in [00:13:30] in the the Children's Hospital in Melbourne and I loved that job. It was very good, and I think I was good at it. Um and perhaps the confirmation of that is that I was several times offered a senior post there. I thought very hard about it, and I knew that I would be happy in the job and I wasn't. I was unafraid of that. [00:14:00] But I think once some staff members at that in that era, this is the early seventies twigged that I was gay then A lot of these, um, very good, but very ambitious hospital. I mean, hospitals filled with very ambitious people. There would be, uh, almost certainly that would be used. [00:14:30] Um, in a variety of ways, I did know somebody there who was gay. And, uh uh, I remember him being talked about in a very derogatory way. I thought, Well, I don't want that. So that's why you turn those jobs because I was not because I didn't want the job. So were there any other instances where you didn't accept something or didn't do [00:15:00] something because you were gay? Not that I can think of. No, Uh, I didn't let other than that. I didn't let being gay, uh, interfere with my career. Then what's what? How different was your life before the homosexual law reform bill was passed? Well, in fact, not different. Um, I mean, it was a relief to have it over and done with, and, [00:15:30] uh, but I really from the beginning of adulthood decided that I wasn't going to let being gay. Um, harm my personal life. Uh, I'm I'm a domesticated sort of guy, so I like long term relationship and I. I didn't think that I was going to let that get in the way. It [00:16:00] whether it caused any harm to me or not, I have no idea. And I wouldn't know. I would have turned out to be a lovely fellow. Anyway, you.

IRN: 590
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/marriage_equality_parliament_29_august_2012.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003991
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089285
TITLE: Parliament: first reading of the Marriage (Definition of Marriage) Amendment Bill
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: David Clark; Jami-Lee Ross; John Hayes; Kevin Hague; Lockwood Smith; Louisa Wall; Nikki Kaye; Paul Hutchison; Su'a William Sio; Tim Macindoe; Winston Peters
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: Aotearoa New Zealand; Christianity; Civil Union Act (2004); David Clark; Georgina Beyer; Jami-Lee Ross; John Hayes; Kevin Hague; Lockwood Smith; Louisa Wall; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); New Zealand Herald; Nikki Kaye; Parliament TV; Parliament buildings; Paul Hutchison; Presbyterian; Prostitution Reform Act (2003); Raymond Huo; Su'a William Sio; Tim Macindoe; Wellington; Winston Peters; church; civil unions; human rights; law; marriage; marriage equality; politics; religion
DATE: 29 August 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the first reading of the Marriage (Definition of Marriage) Amendment Bill, introduced into Parliament by Labour MP Louisa Wall on 29 August 2012. The Bill passed its first reading - 80 ayes / 40 noes.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I call on members Order of the day Number four, Marriage Definition of Marriage amendment Bill. First reading. Louisa Wall Speaker uh, Mr Speaker Definition of Marriage Amendment Bill. Now be read a first time I nominate the Government Administration Committee to consider the bill. Mr. Speaker, I am proud to be the sponsor of this bill before the house, which seeks to define [00:00:30] marriage as between two people, regardless of their sex, sexual orientation or gender identity. It is generally known as the bill, which will enable marriage equality between consenting adults underpinned by principles of love, fairness and equality of opportunity for all New Zealand citizens. The bill has attracted passionate reactions from a number of quarters, and the result of that passion has seen statements that reflect the diversity of opinions across our society. [00:01:00] This ability to engage and to make a statement and to have a say about this issue is fundamental, and I want to highlight that this is an important aspect of a modern democratic society. The starting point for this bill rests with our role on the international stage. In 1944 when the founding Document of the United Nations, the United Nations charter was being developed, New Zealand pushed for a stronger [00:01:30] focus on human rights and in 1948 we again played an important and effective role in drafting the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. We saw the need for such a declaration and participated in its instigation and development. This is not surprising given that we lead the world in enabling women to have the right to vote. We did that in 18 93 and it took the United States another 27 years to reach that same [00:02:00] point. That sexual orientation is a ground of unlawful discrimination is not a matter of dispute. In 1993 we as a country amended the Human Rights Commission Act 1919 77 to outlaw discrimination on a wider variety of grounds, including sexual orientation. This is what we must always remember. When we discuss this issue, this issue will make all citizens and people of New Zealand equal under the law, [00:02:30] given that currently same gender couples cannot obtain a marriage licence from the state. What my bill does not do is require any personal church to carry out a marriage if it does not fit with the beliefs of the celebrant or the religious interpretation a church has. Section 29 remains in place and makes it clear that once a marriage licence is obtained by a couple, it does not oblige a minister [00:03:00] or celebrant to marry that couple. That is the situation now and nothing will change. And because we have freedom of religion in New Zealand, no religious body is bound to marry a couple. If that marriage is at odds with their religious belief for churches and religious institutions, such discrimination would be justified under Section five of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990 based on the right to freedom of religion, specifically the manifestation [00:03:30] of religion and belief. Under Section 15 of this act. It is the state's role to uphold our laws and our international obligations and to ensure everyone has equality under the law. The church can discriminate, but the state should not and cannot. We as parliamentarians, belong to the only institution in New Zealand, our parliament that makes our laws and upholds not only these laws but our international obligations [00:04:00] as well. It is not the state's role to sanction heterosexuality or homosexuality. We recognise that as a country in 1986 when we decriminalised homosexual acts. Nor is it the state's role to judge the marriages of its citizens. Civil marriage is the legal concept of marriage as a governmental institution, irrespective of religious affiliation in accordance with the marriage laws of the state. [00:04:30] Marriage as an institution predates government and Christianity. It has been part of civilizations and cultures and has over that time changed dramatically. Same sex marriage between men was not uncommon in the days of the Roman Emperor Nero. The Catholic Church initially saw the institution of marriage as tainted and undesirable and advocated chastity and celibacy. Once the church adopted an adapted marriage, [00:05:00] it was for life. It could not be dissolved. Married women assumed the identity of their husband, and he received all her property by marriage. The legal doctrine of ture meant a woman had no legal status. She could not own property, enter into contracts or earn money or obtain an education without her husband's consent. The church and state has at different times refused to marry people who have been divorced, refused to marry a different people [00:05:30] of different faiths and refused to marry people of different races. Those restrictions have changed because they were not fair and just women were not able to be guardians of their Children upon a divorce or separation. A law was needed to change that for women to own property required law changes. As recently as 18 84 a woman was only able to obtain a divorce from her husband if there was another cause alongside [00:06:00] adultery such as extreme cruelty, desertion or incest. A man, however, could obtain a divorce immediately on the basis of his wife's adultery. These are all part of the historical matrix that is marriage. Thankfully, the need to change some of the laws has been recognised and implemented, with women obtaining the right to vote and finally having legal status. The greatest transformation of marriage began. [00:06:30] There are a number of shocking historical facts that surround the subject, and we walk at how, in a civilised society this could happen. Today is the time to open the institution of marriage to all people who are eligible. There is no reasonable ground on which the state should deny any citizen the right to enter the institution of marriage if he or she chooses. That is not the process of inclusion and to any person concerned about [00:07:00] their own beliefs and how they wish to celebrate marriage. It is important to always remember that this bill allows a couple to only obtain a marriage licence. It does not mean that a minister or celebrant must marry the couple. Section 29 of the Marriage Act 1955 says that, and this will not change. Some people have suggested the church cannot share its view about marriage because of Section 55 56 of the Marriage Act. Section 56 says that a person cannot [00:07:30] state that another person's marriage is not legal. That does not concern the general view of marriage but is directed to an individual. And the reality is that, once sanctioned by law, the marriage is legal and no church person should be stating otherwise. I want to highlight two specific consequences if my bill becomes law under Section three of our current adoption act, a joint application to adopt can only be made by spouses or by the birth parent [00:08:00] and his or her spouse. A spouse is a marital partner, so if you are married you spouses. Therefore, under the current wording of the Adoption Act, same sex marital partners their spouses would be able to make a joint application to adopt. There are shortcomings in our current adoption Act and the care of Children Reform Bill that is also on the ballot, uh, would be unaffected by this bill. Also, an obvious consequential amendment is Section [00:08:30] 2, uh 30 subsection two of the birth Death Marriages and Relationships Registration Act 1995. This provision limits a trans person who is married and who gets a family court declaration under section 28 of this act to change their sex details from having those details amended on a birth certificate. This section should be deleted. A marriage has stood, uh, strong through the significant change of, uh, one partner. Transitioning from one sex to another [00:09:00] should remain recognised under New Zealand law, how any person's marriage is performed has never been the state's business. Whether it be cultural, religious or civil, it is the decision for the couple, and their what this bill will do is enable that decision to be made and for all people to have the same choices about how they make a commitment to one another where it requires a licence. The state should not exclude any citizen that is otherwise eligible to exclude two people from obtaining a marriage [00:09:30] licence based on their sexual orientation and gender identity is not tolerable. And we have an opportunity as a parliament to rectify this discriminatory, unequal and unfair application of the law. Thank you. There we go. [00:10:00] Order, order. Before I put the question and call the next speaker, I must remind our guests in the gallery they cannot take part in any proceedings in the house, much as they may wish to. Members and visitors in the gallery cannot applaud or express any view on the debate in the house. I apologise for that. But those are the rules of the of the house. The question is that [00:10:30] the motion be agreed to. I normally go to, uh, Nikki K. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to support the marriage definition of marriage amendment Bill. I want to congratulate Louisa Wall for bringing this bill to the House. Today is an important day for New Zealand because I hope that we are on the cusp of passing [00:11:00] a piece of legislation that will strengthen the rights and freedoms of a significant group of New Zealanders. In this house there is huge diversity. We were born in places across New Zealand, from taka to to villages in Samoa. We have MP S of different ethnicities Samoan, Korean, Chinese pakeha and many more. We have [00:11:30] MP S of different faiths, Muslim to Sikh, to Christian. We are a house of representatives. We reflect the diversity of New Zealand and our families are also different. What binds us together is a shared sense of justice, fairness and a heartfelt belief in this amazing, democratic, hardworking country. My grandfather fought for our freedom, as did many members. Relatives in this house. Ronald Reagan once said. Freedom [00:12:00] is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our Children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for protected and handed on them to do the same. New Zealand has a proud history of leading in issues of equality. This bill, in my view, is about justice and the basic right of every New Zealander to have equality before the law. Civil unions gave us a step forward in that conferred [00:12:30] many rights to New Zealanders who had been deprived of them of the past. However, it did not guarantee every New Zealander the ability to marry the person they love. It did not guarantee an equality of status of relationship. I go further and say that this bill not only get confers every New Zealander and equality before the law in terms of their relationship, but it gives a dignity and acceptance to [00:13:00] a group of New Zealanders not long ago who were criminalised for the people they love. I stand before you today as a member of the National Party, as a national party, we have a strong history of bringing together different groups of New Zealanders. Recently, the prime minister commented on the founders of the National Party. He said they thought that the individual freedom promoted by national involved many diverse groups with conflicting [00:13:30] interests. Tolerance was the key to working through those conflicts, giving everyone a say but also ensuring the party ultimately focused on the good of the country as a whole. That is why I accept that being a champion of freedom is also about accepting that others may hold strong opposing views and that they have the right to voice and exercise those views in this house. We may vote differently [00:14:00] on the side of the house on conscience issues, but we are bound by a quality of opportunity. We are a party that has always treasured freedom and choice. We are a party that is often regarded the unwelcome hand of the nanny state reaching into the homes of many New Zealand families. It would be remiss of me not to acknowledge some of the people and the liberal members in the past that have fought on this side of the house for freedom. Young proposed the first attempt at homosexual law reform. Marilyn [00:14:30] wearing dedicated her time in parliament and her academic career to issues of equality. The right honourable Jenny Shipley proposed and helped pass the human rights legislation. I also stand before you today as the member for Auckland Central. I represent the wonderful suburbs of Graylan, Ponsonby and Rocky Bay and a huge LGBT community, but at a personal level, regardless of [00:15:00] the fact that I am a member of the National Party and a member for Auckland Central, I support this bill because I actually believe it is the right thing to do. I know the arguments in opposition. I do not believe that tradition is a good reason to block same sex couples from the ability to marry. If we had accepted in this house the arguments of tradition, then women would have never got the vote and women would not be sitting in this chamber this evening. In terms of [00:15:30] religion, there will be ministers and people of different faiths supporting the bill and some who oppose it. Some have raised issues of religious freedom and I believe those issues can be worked through at Select committee. I know how important this bill is for many young New Zealanders. Young New Zealanders overwhelmingly support this bill. When I look to the future of this country and the many people that will come after us in this house, I believe if this [00:16:00] legislation does not pass today, it will eventually pass. I meet young New Zealanders every day who are who are very diverse. They are more diverse than their previous generation and they have a high level of tolerance and respect for people's differences. They do not shun those differences. In fact, they celebrate them. I stand here as a New Zealander with eight siblings. I have had lots of parents, several stepparents. [00:16:30] I have a mother who has a boyfriend of 25 years and I have a father who has several marriages. Dad, I think you have used my quota. The point that I make is that New Zealand family structures are very diverse and a major reason that I support this bill is that I want every New Zealander and I cannot deny any New Zealander the ability [00:17:00] to marry the person they love. I stand here as a New Zealander that believes not just in the equality of of the law, but also as someone who has seen both people prejudiced and teased in the broad light of day in this country. I have seen the subtle prejudice, the people who say their partners are not invited to work functions, the people who feel uncomfortable holding hands down the street or who may not [00:17:30] be invited to the family Christmas. I see it through my electorate office. I see it in the street. The prevention of prejudice is not just the role of parliamentarians in this house. Our country would be a lot stronger if we all practise, practise the values of greater tolerance, respect, understanding and compassion for fellow New Zealanders. I have met through my office people who are scared to come out to their friends, their families, their colleagues and their community. In fact, [00:18:00] the saddest result of prejudice that I have seen has been and is reflected in the high number of youth LGBT suicides. Some of these people have taken their life because they they cannot see themselves accepted. They cannot see themselves being happy. This parliament has an opportunity through legislation to help change that I will vote for marriage equality so that every New [00:18:30] Zealander can marry who they want to love. This bill enshrines a principle that society supports loving and committed relationships between two people and all of over the 10,000 constituency queries that I have had. I have never had anyone who has said they want to be married to more than one person. As a legislator, I support New Zealand having [00:19:00] laws that recognise the value of two people making a commitment to each other in law. My idea of strong family policies is initiatives that support the well-being of Children and education and health and that enable two committed people to be in a relationship have that recognised in law. That is why I believe the institution of marriage can actually [00:19:30] be strengthened by enabling more people to marry. I want to acknowledge some people who have, uh, been on this road and have fought for freedom within our party. I want to acknowledge, uh, Sean Top, Sean Wallace. Megan Campbell. I want to acknowledge worried that Mr Speaker, I am pleased to support [00:20:00] this marriage equality bill to the house because I believe that this bill is fundamentally about justice, freedom and equality of opportunity. It is actually a reason I'm a member of the National Party. Our country, in my view, will be a much better place for enabling every New Zealander to walk with a little more freedom this evening. [00:20:30] I commend this bill to the house, Sir William Seal. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I stand here as an elected representative in this house elected by the people of it is an electorate that is close to my heart. They put me here by giving me their confidence that I would fairly and fully represent them as the angry member of Parliament. [00:21:00] I am privileged with the stewardship that I've been given by the community and their key priorities to determine the things that I advocate and stand on. They expect me to represent their voice without fear and even at the risk of standing alone or being called names that hurt and upset families watching on. With that in mind, I appreciate that I represent a different point of view, one that is perhaps contrary to the majority view of this house. [00:21:30] So to my colleagues, whose views may differ from those that I represent, I stand in opposition to this bill with a total commitment to defend your right to disagree with me. As a member of the Labour Party, we are a broad and diverse party of people with different points of views in almost every issue. And on this particular issue, it is labour party policy that this matter be voted on as a matter of conscience. I therefore claim that right to vote on this [00:22:00] issue in accordance with the dictates of my own conscience and allow all MP S the same privilege. This is a matter that is very sensitive for many in my constituency within the Pacific and faith community, even within my own family, within the fraternity, even within the Pacific, same sex, uh, community. It is a difficult issues, and the views are very divided. Many in the community want [00:22:30] Parliament to focus on the more weightier matters of putting food on the table and paying the bills, and not on matters that are considered private, personal and religious in nature. In the Samoan community, many recognise some on same sex relationships and to the extent that they are given very high ranking titles. But everyone conducts their affairs within the boundaries of culture [00:23:00] and religion. I understand the desire of the gay community who want to have same sex marriage. But many who oppose this bill believe that the civil union and the statutory relationship laws already provide these legal rights to same sex couples. Many believe that this legislation ought to be strengthened rather than changing marriage to incorporate same sex marriage. If parliament is to change this long held standard [00:23:30] of marriage between a man and a woman. By passing this legislation, we not only change the definition of marriage, we change its meaning and the fundamental basis of marriage. This change will have enduring ramifications for future generations. We do not know what those ramifications are, but there is concern within my community. It is not a small change. It is a significant move. All I would [00:24:00] say to members of parliament and to the wider community as we have conversations about this bill and its ramifications. I would implore everyone on both sides of the argument to keep the conversation safe, respectful and dignified. Peace to you all. Kevin Hague. Mr Speaker, I'm proud to stand tonight to [00:24:30] congratulate my friend and colleague Louisa Ha, and to say that all Green Party MP S will be voting for this bill. The New Zealand Adolescent Health Research Group has shown that teenagers who are same sex attracted have disproportionately high rates of alcohol and other drug abuse problems. Depression, other mental health problems, self-harm unsafe sexual behaviour, including HIV risk [00:25:00] and suicide attempts. In 2007 20% of these young people had attempted suicide in the past year. That's five times the rate of their heterosexual peers. All of these issues are strongly associated with psychosocial risk risk factors like low self esteem and feelings of isolation and worthlessness. Research is unequivocal [00:25:30] that these in turn, are very strongly associated with the experience of discrimination or, alternatively, the experience of hiding one's sexual orientation to avoid discrimination. When I worked at the New Zealand AIDS Foundation in the early 19 nineties, we produced a poster that said Simply, HIV attacks the body prejudice attacks the spirit both can kill. The effects [00:26:00] of this corrosive social environment on the individual also include anti gay bullying, harassment and violence. If we want to do something about the terrible burden of misery, illness and death being faced by young, lesbian, gay and transgender people, then we have to do something about prejudice and discrimination for me, that is why marriage equality is so important. [00:26:30] The message that the state currently sends through this discriminatory law undermines these young people and fuels and gives heart to prejudice. That is why it must change. A law that treats all couples equally, does the reverse. It undermines prejudice. It empowers the marginalised, and it creates a healthier and happier society. That's why, even if civil unions carried exactly [00:27:00] the same rights and responsibilities, they would still not be enough all of the time that heterosexual couples have access to the status of marriage and we do not, a message is sent that we are less than normal. And if anyone disputes that, imagine if the situation were reversed. How would heterosexual people feel if they couldn't marry? My partner and I have been together [00:27:30] for 28 years. This month. My guess is that that is longer than most heterosexual marriages. At the beginning, we could have been fired from our jobs, kicked out of our home, denied goods and services and arrested and imprisoned for being who we are and expressing our love to allow us the right to marry. Would right and injustice bring great benefit not only to us, but to all of those [00:28:00] marginalised young people and harm absolutely nobody, in the words of a former and great member of this house, Brian Donnelly. I used to often tell my students, You don't make your own candle shine more brightly by blowing out somebody else's. And the converse of that adage is my own candle will not glow more dimly if I should light somebody else's, he asked this [00:28:30] question. How will my own marriage be diminished by the passage of this legislation. He was talking about civil unions. The answer and I am convinced it is the correct answer is it will not make one iota of difference. If that is the case. What is so dreadfully wrong in allowing other New Zealanders of a different disposition to make long term public commitment for someone they love? I have friends right across this house, and I want to particularly [00:29:00] acknowledge those who have changed their minds to support this bill and also those who will oppose tonight but have genuinely open minds, uh, to the possibility of change. But I say to others, your vote on this bill will stand against your name forever. It is up to you on which side of history you will be remembered. The right Honourable Winston Peters. Mr. Speaker, [00:29:30] New Zealand has a proud democratic tradition. The principles of democracy are deeply ingrained in our political culture. We are one of only nine countries worldwide that can claim an unbroken line of democracy that is holding elections every three years since 18 54. The concept that every adult is entitled to an equal say is a fundamental part of who we are as a nation. And yet there is still an assumption in this house that members know better than the public [00:30:00] when it comes to issues of morality. The conscience vote exists because it's believed that MP S possess some sort of unique ethical view or intellectual capacity that entitles a greater say than the ordinary voter. That is an archaic belief that has no place in a modern democracy or 21st century New Zealand. This type of conscience vote is a relic of a bygone age. It's inherently anti democratic, and it's time MP S on both sides [00:30:30] of the house consigned to the dustbin of history, that is, there is no reason why the public should be denied the opportunity to decide this debate. The Marriage amendment bill would change institutional marriage as we know it. This matter is by definition, one of public morality, and if New Zealand is to have a public morality, it must be decided by the public, the voters of New Zealand. We propose an amendment to Ms Wall's bill [00:31:00] that would require a binding referendum to be held upon the bill's passage, which referendum depending on the outcome would be a catalyst as to whether the bill becomes law or otherwise. That proposal was rejected on the grounds that, according to some media driven polls, 60% of New Zealanders support same sex marriage. That may or may not be the case, but the only way to test and determine that is by way of referendum. Such a major legislative change [00:31:30] should be based on the collective will of the people, not 100 and 21 temporary empowered members of parliament. New Zealand should make these decisions collectively as a nation. There are those here in this institution and outside who would plead But MP S are elected to make these tough decisions. If that's true, which party campaigned on this issue? And where was this issue in the lead up to the 2011 election? Where is the transparency of campaign commitments that would lead some [00:32:00] MP S to believe and conclude that they were elected on this issue? The fact is, they were not for at no time did they ever campaign on it. This parliament is now wrestling with alcohol legislation which they themselves decided upon and created an unholy mess. This is a parliament that decided to legalise prostitution without real safeguards. And now all over New Zealand, communities are alarmed at what is happening in hitherto safe business and community areas. What could [00:32:30] possibly be wrong or unprincipled or unethical or immoral? And then the people decide a moral issue for themselves? What unique insights, understanding or greater level of perception do parliamentarians exclusively have that are not shared by the New Zealand people? This party began nine years ago, firmly believing in the far greater use of referendum mandate. We have never changed our view on that, even to the extent that we put a major macroeconomic [00:33:00] issue like compulsory savings to the people of this country in a referendum in 9 97 we could have just taken the arrogant view then that we should just ram it through parliament. But we didn't and although the public voted a different view to ours, we accepted the public's right to have their say. And since that time we've seen all man of changes such as the abolition of the Privy Council and New Zealand honour system, the abandonment of Queen's Council, for example, all [00:33:30] ram through this parliament, the last two being overturned by a Labour government. It begs the question. Is this parliamentary superiority a transient, transient chimeric thing? Not from from New Zealand as Fiji, where the military have seized government and constantly argued that they are backed by the people? And many of us have responded rightly. I say, If that's so, why not hold an election and prove it and thereby remove all doubt? [00:34:00] Likewise, Tonight we say, Let's ask the people to obtain a proper durable mandate. You know, it's truly ironic to see so many people swearing daily their allegiance to democracy, as MP S do every day. And yet, when a true opportunity for real democracy expanded democracy is presented before them, so many have no desire to allow it to happen. Those of us who argue for a full public referendum on this issue are satisfied [00:34:30] to accept the public's will. We are satisfied to take our instructions from the people. We believe the member's time has expired. Sorry I didn't hear the bell, sir. I gave the member a one minute bill. Well, apologise. I just finish off then because the member didn't hear. I apologise. It was my fault. I allow the member to finish my fault. I didn't ring along enough, right? Thank you, Mr Speaker. What grounds could those who think otherwise possibly have [00:35:00] one has to wonder what priority some MP S have When again, today, hundreds of people face losing their jobs, such as another tranche of gold miners on the West Coast. Any emergency debate about them? Or do we just consign hundreds of families with the scrap people of the free market and call this a more important issue? Therefore, the marriage of Bill without a referendum is opposed by New Zealand. First, we oppose this parliament again, ignoring the people's view whatever the people's view [00:35:30] may be. And I ask, why are so many here not prepared to trust the people on these issues? Tim McIndoe, Mr. Speaker, When this bill was drawn, I indicated that I would vote against it. The reasons that I gave to the media and my constituents at that time remain important to me. But the intense public interest shown in this matter has prompted me to go much further. In my thinking, [00:36:00] I approach the issue as one who respects and wishes to protect the institution of marriage in its historical and current form. I believe that a major purpose of New Zealand's civil union legislation, which was passed before I became an MP, was to protect the legal rights of gay and de facto couples. In my opinion, if more protection is needed and it may be, it should be achieved by amending that legislation, not the marriage act. I've offered to meet supporters of this bill in my electorate [00:36:30] to discuss what could be achieved by such a compromise. I accept that ours is a secular society. But for me and many other New Zealanders, our attitude is also deeply embedded in our Christian belief in the sanctity of marriage. I chose that word deliberately not because I expect everyone else to view marriage in that way, but because it's how I see it. And New Zealanders have a right to understand what the values and beliefs of their MP S are, especially at times such as this. [00:37:00] One of my favourite plays is Robert Boltz, a man for all Seasons. Tonight, for me might be best described as a Sir Thomas Moore moment for some members of this house and For many members of the public, especially those in the younger demographic, this is a fairly easy question to answer. They have emailed and written to me and posted their views on Facebook, urging me to change my mind. To them, it's a simple human rights issue. We are all created equal. We should be treated equally under the law [00:37:30] and the state has no right. Nor is there any public interest in denying New Zealand is the legal authority to marry on the grounds that both partners are male or both are female. For me, however, and many other New Zealanders, the issue is not that simple. Nor is it a question of the state denying the human rights of some citizens. I would never condone the suppression of my gay friends and constituents. Human rights. I do not judge them nor regard them in any way as inferior. Each [00:38:00] day, sir, we commence our sittings in this house with a prayer that we will conduct our affairs and those of this country to the glory of God's holy name, the maintenance of true religion and justice and the public welfare, peace and tranquilly of New Zealand. It has become fashionable to demean the role of churches and society. But our modern nation was founded on Christian values, with a rich Christian heritage dating back many centuries brought to these shores by our ancestors. That heritage [00:38:30] underpins our democratic tradition, our legal system, our traditional family structures and the freedoms that we so often take for granted. We should not take those institutions lightly. And in matters such as the issue we are debating tonight, we should be respectful of the voices of our church leaders. Although ours is essentially a Christian heritage, we are increasingly a multicultural and a multifaith society. While there are many differences reflected in that diversity, attitudes to marriage and its special [00:39:00] status as a relationship between one man and one woman who honour and remain faithful to each other are consistent. I hope we will hear from representatives of those various faith communities during this debate. Yesterday, 70 Christian church leaders, including numerous national heads of major church denominations, both Catholic and Protestant, released a joint personal statement in response to this bill, and I believe it is important that it become part of the record of this first reading debate. [00:39:30] We have made this joint statement, said the reverend doctor Richard Waugh, because members of parliament need to be in no doubt what mainstream Christian views are on this matter. This issue is not about equality, but about the nature of marriage. All human beings are equal in the sight of both God and society. But not all relationships are the same. Marriage has uniquely been about the union of Male and female. The state should not presume to reengineer a basic human institution. [00:40:00] The complementary role of both male and female is basic to the very character of marriage. Along with having and raising Children, same sex relationships are intrinsically different, so can never be regarded as true marriage marriage as we understand it, sir, has for many centuries been the basis of the traditional family unit. During my lifetime, the family has come under increasing attack in a variety of ways, and I believe our society is much poorer for that. In the joint statement from the churches, the [00:40:30] minister, the ministers, urged parliamentarians to take seriously that for a very significant proportion of the New Zealand public marriage is more than just a legal agreement or social contract. But has a sacred character to it and that many people, Christian and other otherwise feel very strongly that the nature of marriage should not be interfered with. Sir, I understand the distress of many in our community around this issue. I wish I could say more and respond more to those representations I've received. But I do pray that we will make the right decision [00:41:00] this evening. Doctor David Clarke, Mr. Speaker, Some senior colleagues, uh, I respect greatly have requested. I consider seeking a call on this contentious bill and having given the matter thought I now stand in the house to speak my truth on this matter. Many of you following this debate will know that I am a Presbyterian minister. I've been a part of similar debates [00:41:30] in the church in recent decades, but in this house I do not formally represent the church. I represent the North and in this debate, my own conscience. Across the church as across society, there are many views on the issues of sexuality and marriage. Like all MP, SI have been lobbied heavily by people on both sides of the argument. [00:42:00] I want to relate a couple of stories that uh, have come to me through that experience. The first is of an elderly gay man, a friend of mine who petitioned me not to support this legislation because, in his view, he fought for civil unions. He fought for equality before the law, and he got it. He didn't want the heterosexual baggage of property rights and other history [00:42:30] that is associated with marriage. And rightly, he points to the Christian scriptures where he says, there is no model for marriage that is consistent. What we have in the Old Testament is largely polygamy, and there is an absence of advice, certainly from Jesus in the New Testament on the topic of marriage, I suspect he would say it would be of the view that marriage, uh, is frequently paraded by in the media by those [00:43:00] who claim, uh, a Christian viewpoint is really a thinly veiled defence of Victorian morality. A second person who petitioned me against supporting this was a young pastor from a church in my electorate who was very genuinely concerned by some research he had read that suggested that Children who grow up, uh, raised by parents who are not their biological parents are likely to be worse off [00:43:30] and have worse life outcomes. He was very serious and genuine in his concerns. I also received many voices in favour of this legislation, and particularly from younger members of the gay, lesbian, bi and transgender community. And many people in that community can simply not understand what the fuss is about. And, I think also of gay and lesbian couples, I know who are both who who [00:44:00] are fantastic parents of fantastic Children. Personally, I would prefer a model like the German one, where civil unions are conducted by state by the state, for all couples and marriages are carried out outside the state's grasp for religious or other reasons. But that's not what's on offer here. I've been persuaded in this debate by [00:44:30] two things in particular. Marriage is to most people a secular term, certainly for younger folk, And I know, for example, in the Presbyterian Church, uh, where I was trained and had practised that marriage was never regarded as a sacrament. That's why Presbyterian ministers were amongst the first in New Zealand to conduct garden weddings. The second thing that has persuaded me is that overseas [00:45:00] there is still discrimination against those who cannot claim, uh, marriage, who cannot tick the marriage box. The strongest support for marriage equality that I have experienced has come from the age group most likely to be engaging in marriage in the future. It is for those people who will be inheriting and carrying forward the institution of marriage that I am supporting the bill. I'm mindful that many of my colleagues from across the house [00:45:30] who would claim a strong faith background do not support this view. I am respectful of their beliefs. And while I know that they have carefully and prayerfully examined their own consciences, I'm mindful that they may come to a different view to me. My thoughts are with them and with people wrestling personally with the impact of this bill on their lives. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Doctor Paul Hutchison, Speaker from the outset, [00:46:00] I want to acknowledge the whistle wall and her thoughtfulness and preparedness to speak with me at very short notice, both knowledgeably and incredibly wisely on this very important bill. Secondly, might I acknowledge my constituents in who have answered many, uh uh surveys that I have put out and have thoughtfully and with great effort and passion sent me many [00:46:30] emails and letters regarding this bill. I've thought long and hard about it, and despite The Herald depicting me this morning as voting against it and many attempts, I simply cannot instruct. I cannot construct a strong enough intellectual, moral health or even spiritual argument against [00:47:00] it. Consequently, I will be voting for it, as was also mentioned by The Herald a few weeks ago. Within a few hours of this bill being drawn from the ballot, I had the Christian lobby in my local electorate asking for an appointment, and they certainly gave me their very clear views, which I respect. But subsequent to that, I have had many conversations [00:47:30] throughout the electorate, from people from many walks of life. I very much respect that Louisa Wall sees. The major issue is about ensuring that all New Zealanders have equal rights, regardless of gender or sexual orientation. We have a separate system of separation of church and state, and this bill clearly relates only to civil law and preserves [00:48:00] the right of churches to decide who they may marry. I very much appreciate I very much hope that the churches appreciate that fact, I would certainly be against the bill if that was not the case. My initial reticence in supporting the bill came from my concern that some of the issues around it have not been fully explored by way of national conversations, that there is no strong New Zealand evidence base [00:48:30] and that we are travelling fast to come to a result on an issue that many New Zealanders on either side feel very deeply about issues, issues that have profound sociological implications, I ask, should the New Zealand Parliament be in the first instant, initiating UH, expert or select committee inquiries into the new birth technologies, adoption, the spectrum of sexuality and gender difference, Children's rights and [00:49:00] the evidence from the New Zealand experience so far, be it fairly short. I understand that currently a female adult in New Zealand can adopt both a boy and a girl, but a male can only adopt a boy and only in exceptional circumstances, a girl with the passage of this bill that will change instantaneously. And that is a big change that does need exploring. [00:49:30] But in the end, it boils down to the same presence. Pre premise that all new Zealanders should have the right to civil marriage irrespective of race, sex or gender. I was deeply concerned to hear that gay adolescents have a suicide rate 5 to 8 times that of heterosexual adolescence in a country that already has an appallingly high suicide rate. And on conversations with the honourable Marion Street [00:50:00] and Kevin Haig, they both tell me that it will make a profound difference to the marginalisation that adolescents feel from a health perspective. We should be doing every everything possible to create an environment in New Zealand where everyone feels they are included. I accept that I'm impressed that the Anglican church here in New Zealand is moving, albeit slowly but progressively by appointing a commission of study led by Sir Anan [00:50:30] Sat and Tamati read, I want to see these issues widely debated and studied in the New Zealand context, and I hope they will submit to the Select Committee. Finally, Mr Speaker, I sincerely hope that the committee process will be thorough and robust and will be committed to openly address the sort of issues I have brought up and many more. While I personally would have preferred a slower process regarding [00:51:00] this legislation. As I said earlier, I simply cannot construct an intellectual, moral health or spiritual argument against it. In fact, the reverse is very much the case. I support it. John Hayes, Mr Speaker In 2005 while campaigning for election to this parliament, many people expressed their concern and anger [00:51:30] that the then a member of parliament, Georgina Baer, failed to represent their views on the issue of prostitution reform. When elected, I undertook to reflect the electorate's views, and I will do that on this legislation designed to promote the Labour Party's social reform agenda. I trust the instincts of my constituents. They provide a perspective which is not imposed by this House nor force. Whatever differences there may be among us as there must be nothing will shake my conviction [00:52:00] from supporting the majority view in my electorate. My judgement on this bill is in step with many constituents I've spoken to on the street, in the shops, the businesses and the bars between and Martin Borough. Like them, I consider the bill to be a side show. There are more serious issues which this house should be focused on. My constituents don't understand why a change in civil marriage is important, They say it will impact on a few be noticed in their daily life by even fewer people [00:52:30] and have minimal, if any, direct impact on most New Zealanders. In response to my request for constituents' views, I have received several 1000 replies by way of phone calls, letters and emails. Constituents who support the bill argue that discrimination of any kind has no place in New Zealand. They say we need to look no further than the laws enacted by this parliament over many years, which have broken down barriers and the open doors for all who live in this country. They [00:53:00] say our Bill of Rights Act affirms that everyone has the right to freedom from discrimination, and our human right act prohibits discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. Yet two men or two women are prohibited from marrying. They say that in the 21st century New Zealand, we should not be willing to accept a legal system which effectively cast one group of people into the role of second class citizens on the grounds of the SE sexual orientation. Those in [00:53:30] my electorate who oppose the bill do so for a range of reasons, they have widely differing political views. They have differing religious beliefs. They are both religious and non religious views set against the same sex marriage. For Christians, marriage involves vows before God and witnesses for a man and a woman to commit to one another, to procreate and to raise Children for all religions. Marriage is not defined by love. It is defined as a union between a man and a woman for procreation. [00:54:00] Many of my constituents believe marriage was introduced into society through religious channels, and religion shows marriage to have anything to do with same partnerships. For these people, it is not possible for marriage to be redefined beyond the boundaries of a woman and a man. They worry that if marriage is redefined once, it could continue to be redefined. They see this bill as legalising by stealth, the adoption of Children by gay parents. They fear [00:54:30] the extension of boundaries to include relationships. We do not, as a society, currently condone polygamous relationships, incestuous relationships. These are very genuine concerns to many of my constituents, Mr Speaker, there are many arguments from the religious perspective. However, increasingly marriage is not based on one religion or on a on a union. Some constituents point out that marriage as a union between a man and a woman [00:55:00] and predates even the Bible as a foundation for our society. To them, I note that the Roman Emperor Nero around 900 BC. Entered into marriage with a male slave. I see plenty of unions take place in New Zealand between a man and a woman without any religious context. These are sometimes called marriages and use a celebrant rather than a priest. Or sometimes these couples choose to have a civil union. Some couples choose not to acknowledge their relationship in any way [00:55:30] other than by living together. Many in my electorate consider same sex couples to have the same means of acknowledging their relationship as heteros couples through civil union constituents. Then ask why the same sex couples need to reclassify this union as a marriage. A New Zealand civil union offers the same rights and benefits to parties as spouses to a marriage. The only major difference apart from labels associated is that unlike a marriage, civil unions are a civil matter not conducted through a church. It is obvious [00:56:00] these. These issues expose a much deeper question for churches and the wider community. What ought to be the involvement of the state in what are essentially religious and spiritual sacraments? Some constituents would rather there were a complete divorce between the state's recognition of a marriage, civil union and the churches. Solomon. Blessing of matrimony as is in the case of many European countries, the fact is a civil union is the same as a marriage and arose as a road. So the legal issue appears mere semantics. Each [00:56:30] of us present today are fleeting, transient. On the stage of this country's history, we do not have the right to aside the traditions which exist in our communities. It is ours alone to deal with. As we wish. It is not our alone to deal with. As we wish. This place belongs to every New Zealander. That is why I have asked my constituents how I should represent their views on this issue. Time has expired, so they want me to vote against the bill. [00:57:00] Jamie Lee Ross, Mr Speaker, I am pleased to have an opportunity to outline for the house the reasons why I will be voting in favour of this bill About nine years ago, when I decided to join a political party, I considered carefully the values and beliefs that I feel strongly about. After some time, I decided to join the national party because National most closely resembles what I believe in. Tonight, when I walk into the eyes lobby [00:57:30] to vote on this marriage amendment bill, it's because I want to stay true to the core beliefs of the National Party. Three of these beliefs are equal citizenship and equal opportunity, individual freedom and choice and strong families and caring communities. When I consider the reasons why I came into politics, when I consider the strong values and principles I believe in, I simply cannot see a way in which I could vote against this bill, believing in equal citizenship an equal [00:58:00] opportunity is not a part time belief. If we to stand in this house and champion the rights of New Zealanders to be treated equally, we must apply that principle across the board. As a New Zealander of a younger generation, I find it hard to fathom that not long before I was born, we actually had a law that said homosexuality was illegal. I also find it hard to understand why it wasn't until a few years ago that Parliament allowed same [00:58:30] sex couples to have their relationships recognised in law. And now I find myself questioning why I, as a heterosexual New Zealander, have a legislative right to marry. That same sex couples do not. When my wife and I got married four years ago, we did so because we love each other. We did so because we wanted to spend the rest of our lives with each other. We chose to get married because we could, and because that's what [00:59:00] you do when you want to have legal recognition of your relationship with the most wonderful, caring and beautiful person in your life, you get married. Most New Zealanders have the ability to get married like Lucy and I did. But without this legislation, passing a portion of society doesn't have that opportunity that that leads me to question to the question of why. Why should parliament tell some New Zealanders [00:59:30] that they don't have the same freedoms as others? Why should Parliament tell the nation that we believe in individual freedom and personal responsibility, but only when we agree with the type of relationship the person is in, I believe strongly in individual freedom. I believe strongly in all New Zealanders being able to determine their own destiny. And if two loving, consenting adults want to get married, I'm not affected in any way. Allowing same sex [01:00:00] couples to marry has absolutely no impact on couples that are already married, and we shouldn't be afraid of it. We've all been receiving a lot of emails today. I don't agree with everything that people are saying, but I do find myself agreeing with the recurring theme. Marriage is the foundation for a loving family environment. If that is true, if that is what we believe is a fundamental basis of marriage, [01:00:30] then that can only be an argument in favour of this bill because like it or not, up and down this country, Children are being raised in homes by same sex couples. If it is believed that marriage provides greater protections for those Children. If it is believed that marriage gives those Children a more loving and caring environment to grow up in, then we should do it for those Children. Mr. Speaker, [01:01:00] the law allowed me the good fortune to marry my wife and bring a child into a loving married relationship. I believe in individual freedom and equal opportunity. I believe all New Zealanders should have the same freedoms and opportunities regardless of their sexual orientation. I don't feel threatened. I don't think there is anything abnormal about being gay or lesbian. What is abnormal [01:01:30] is believing that only some people can be as happy as those of us living in a stable, loving and caring marriage. I hope this Parliament can extend the opportunity to get married to all New Zealanders. Louisa Wall in reply, Mr. Speaker, Once again, Mr Speaker, in this closing reply, I would like to acknowledge that the fight for all New Zealanders to be recognised as equal citizens under [01:02:00] the law is one that has been fought in a for around 50 years. And to that end, I wish to acknowledge two women who are here tonight who were the litigants in the quilter case that brought this issue to the fore and recognised that changes were necessary to bring about equality. Uh, were matters for Parliament. Jules Joslin and Jenny Rohan applied for a marriage licence in 1995 almost 10 years after homosexual law reform, and were denied. They and two [01:02:30] other couples challenged that action through the high Court and Court of Appeal. They then took the matter to the United Nations Human Rights Committee to test that denial against the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. Incrementally, their courage in challenging the discriminatory implementation of the provisions in the Marriage Act set the platform for the consideration of this bill. Tonight I want to acknowledge all people involved in the campaign for marriage equality [01:03:00] people from across the political spectrum representing rainbow groups, Queer Strait alliance groups, uh, groups, human rights advocates and groups, our religious leadership in communities and many others who are fighting for legalised love, those who have blogged, those who have shared their stories in the media and those who have led to meetings and discussions in our families and communities. Thank you for your solidarity in advancing the rights of other New Zealanders and proud citizens of our country. [01:03:30] I specifically want to acknowledge our pacific and ethnic communities. I mean no disrespect to you, your beliefs and values and those of your heritage countries of origin are valid. The purpose and intent of this bill is very clear. It means that the law and the and the social and civil institutions that that law governs apply equally to everyone. It means that a couple who so choose can apply for and receive a marriage licence from the state. [01:04:00] What it does not do is affect a person's own beliefs about marriage. The fact that a couple wants to make a commitment to each other by marriage is a cause of celebration and can only benefit our society and families as a whole. Marginalising and discriminating against particular sectors do not benefit society and families. It is a simple choice. Do we support discriminatory laws or not? I know I don't and hopefully that is true [01:04:30] of most of the members of this House. History tells us that the struggles for the gay community, as with any minority, have often been cruel. What has been heartening in this discussion has been the positive response from younger people across the board. It is a generational issue, but it it is also a issue about personal experience and the fact that when you have a friend or a member who is gay. You don't want them to suffer or have [01:05:00] less rights than you. That is not fair or just. Equality for all New Zealand citizens under the law is not a moral issue. It is an issue of the inherent equal value and worth of every New Zealand citizen in a modern democratic society. The state currently discriminates. That is not fair or just. We should not. We should be valuing and including all members of our society. The state doesn't limit [01:05:30] a New Zealand citizen in their ability to get a passport. If you are a New Zealand citizen and fill in the forms correctly and meet criteria that apply to all people and pay the fee, you will get one. The state doesn't limit a New Zealand citizen and their ability to get a driver's licence. If you are a New Zealand citizen and fill in the forms correctly and meet criteria that all people must meet and pay the fee, you will get one. So why do we tolerate the state not giving New Zealand citizens [01:06:00] a marriage licence based purely on their sexual orientation and gender identity? We know why many of the churches do not support this bill fundamentally, because their first principle is that homosexuals are sinners and homosexuality is a sin. But in New Zealand, there is clear and transparent separation of church and state. It's about time that separation was recognised within the context [01:06:30] of marriage in New Zealand and in the state's role in the marriage act through the issuing of a marriage licence. No, thank you. [01:07:00] Order. The question is that the motion be agreed to those of that opinion will say I to the contrary. No, the eyes have it is a personal vote called for a personal vote has been called for A personal vote will be held. Ring the bells, the [01:07:30] eyes will go to the right The nose to the left abstentions will come to the table. The teller I do not have no the teller for the eyes will be lean. The teller for the nose will be. We need a teller for the nose order lean Dalzell, [01:08:00] tell her for the eyes. Tim McIndoe will be teller for the nose. Abstentions will be recorded by the clerk. Proxy votes must be marked as such. The question is that the marriage definition of marriage amendment bill. Be now read [01:08:30] a first time. Not sure the eyes are 78. [01:09:00] The nose are 40. There are no abstentions. The eyes have it. Order Marriage Definition of marriage amendment bill First reading [01:09:30] the question is that the marriage definition of marriage amendment bill be considered by the Government Administration Committee. Those of that opinion will say I the contrary know the eyes have it. I call on members Order of the day Number five I beg your pardon? Unlock the doors Minimum minimum Wage Amendment bill first reading.

IRN: 588
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/marriage_equality_march_participants_29_august_2012.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003990
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089284
TITLE: Participants in Marriage Equality march
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Broden Packer; Courtney Phillips; Jan Logie; Kassie Hartendorp; Virginia Parker-Bowles
INTERVIEWER: Jo Jackson / Grizz
TAGS: Aotearoa New Zealand; Broden Packer; Campaign for Marriage Equality; Courtney Phillips; Jan Logie; Jo Jackson / Grizz; Kassie Hartendorp; LegaliseLove (Wellington); Louisa Wall; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Member of Parliament; Rally for Marriage Equality; Virginia Parker-Bowles; Wellington; Whitireia New Zealand; activism; chant; civil unions; community; gay; human rights; identity; law; lesbian; marriage; marriage equality; politics; social; youth
DATE: 29 August 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Jo Jackson talks to people taking part in the Marriage Equality march through the streets of central Wellington.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Brodie Packer, and I'm very, very for the bill. It's just, you know, a basic human equal, right? Yeah. I'm all for the bill. I like I like the It's kind of silly that there's even a bill, like, it should just be like a human. You know, I want to go to my brother's wedding and my friend's wedding, and, um, brilliant gay weddings will be so much more extravagant than straight weddings, like, Come on, you're just cutting yourself off from a lot of cool parties if you don't. Not for the bill. Um, so you you know a lot of people that [00:00:30] will be affected by the bill in that case, the gays Excellent. Brilliant. Thank you very much. No problem. My name is Josh, and I think that it is an extremely necessary step to the future of properly cutting out homophobia. Hi, my name is Cassie, and I am in support of the bill because I think that is one really important step and gaining fuller quality for, um, queer people. Totally. Um, do you guys know lots of people that will be affected by the bill? Um, I think that I I like. [00:01:00] I do know people who their lives will open up a lot. Now that they're able to do this, it will make a big impact on their lives. Um, so I think that's really a really important job. Well, yeah. Definitely. Um, myself, um, pretty much most of my friends, um, the way to public, they'll be a because obviously, their opinions will have to shift. Cool. Thanks so much. Uh, I'm yeah, and I think it's fantastic. I'm Chris. I think it's great. Yeah. Why? Why do you Why do you guys [00:01:30] in support of it? Why are you guys in support of it? Even, um well, I'm a lesbian. And I guess it kind of just makes sense, like in terms of, um, not being discriminated against, uh, for something that is not wrong or not in your control in any way. And it just I know. I think it's just time. It's time for us to move forward. Yeah, I'd agree with that. I think it's just about time that we got on board as a country. Can I interview you? Yes. Um, can you tell me your name and what you think of the bill, [00:02:00] um, Harriet Or has And I think it's good. I think it's we, you know, we're moving forward in our cultural times, and I feel New Zealand needs to keep up with the other countries around the world who are doing the same thing. Totally. Um, so you think that, uh, being a a marriage equality is is an important um, yeah, I think that's the next step and the step of long rights that need to be fulfilled. Clear. Um, so, yeah. Are you Are you pleased with the turnout here? Do you think that's all? I'm really happy with the turnout. I was. [00:02:30] I'm so happy. And the weather is so nice. It's gonna be a good day. Do you, um, do you have confidence that the bill will go through? Yes. Complete confidence. Awesome. Thanks so much. I meet you and you Radio. Yeah. I meet you in the Oh, yeah. Yeah. He Helene grizelda or Joe or Annie or or a lot of, um, journalism. [00:03:00] And we're covering the rally. Oh, I'm I'm audio recording from my Yeah, so I know that you are, um, about to ask you a few questions. There we go. a bit more professional. OK, so, um, I'm here today because I think that, um, marriage, equality is something really important. And something that, um, we as a country should be, should be endorsing [00:03:30] and and and have, I guess I just I just think it's something really important. Yeah. And I'm here to show my support, mainly. Do you mind if I interview you? Yeah, sure. Uh, can you tell me your name and what you think of the bill? Um, Courtney Phillips and I don't agree with the bill. Does that make sense? I support this right. Support marriage. Equality? Yes. Why do you support it? Well, my parents used to own [00:04:00] a gay bar, and we have lots of gay friends, and they all supported as well. So kind of, Becky, our friends and their values. So you know a lot of people that will be affected by the bill? Yes. How do you think New Zealand the rest of New Zealand will react to the bill? To be honest, I'm not too not too well, I think, but I think it's a lack of knowledge, and they should be wired up on it a little bit more, and then hopefully they'll be on our side. Do you think the bill will pass? [00:04:30] I've got no idea, to be honest. Yeah. Thanks so much. Um, my name's Ariel, and I think it's awesome. I think it needs to be legal, Trent. And why do you support the bill? Well, love is love. Really? Like, Why can't people have rights? Why can't they do it just because they love the same sex? So I see no reason to segregate individuality in any other subject. How do you think [00:05:00] the rest of New Zealand will react to this bill? Um, I think New Zealand is a pretty good country. I think it's just the government. To be honest, it's the people that run it. The people in it are good. It's the people that run it. Not so good. Um, and do you think that they will pass? I hope so. I hope so. Thanks so much. Oh, [00:05:30] just what's all this? Hey, do you mind if I interview you? Cool. Um, could I get you to tell me your names and what you think about the bill? Oh, I'm Virgen and, um, I'm a lesbian, so I'm in total support of the bill, and I can't wait till it comes through. Hey. Hi. I'm Alison, and I'm Of course I'm in support of the bill. Thanks so much. Right. Me? [00:06:00] Ok, has got to go. Wow. Has got to go. Hey, hey, hey, hey. Great. And we And what do you think of the bill? Uh, my name's Sarah Havis. And [00:06:30] I'm really proud to support a bill that will, uh, give equal rights to love of equal value. I think it's really important, and I'm confident that it will pass. Thanks so much. Down. One, 82468 2468. [00:07:00] Excuse me. Can I interview you? Sure. Can you tell me your name and what you think of the marriage equality Bill? Bob and I support it. Yeah. Yeah. Why? Why is that? Uh, well, I think, um, gay people have had a pretty hard time. Uh, you know, over a long time. And I don't see why they shouldn't be able to get married like everybody else. I think a lot of people these days [00:07:30] don't get married anyway. I mean, a lot of de facto relationships and things. Things like that So, um, yeah, I think that they should be able to get married if they want to get married. Yeah. Do you think the rest of New Zealand will have a similar opinion to you? Well, the opinions are certainly divided, so I really don't know about that. So that's going to be interesting to find out. Do you think the bill will pass? I think it probably will. I think more and more people are getting more liberal and being more reasonable about these things. And it's social progress. Really? Yeah. Thanks so much. [00:08:00] Hey, uh, do you mind if I interview you? Sure. Um, can you tell me your name and whether you're in support of the bill or not? My name is Tracy. I'm absolutely in support of it. Cool. Um, why is that? Well, why not? I haven't found one valid reason why they shouldn't be allowed to marry. Show me one. and do you think the rest of New Zealand will have the same view as you? Oh, no, they won't. Of course they won't. That's why we're out. They're out protesting. But I think that a lot of people do I don't know Some people have different reasons why they do [00:08:30] and why they don't. But I don't think everyone will have to say about it. But they should have. And, um do you think the bill will pass? I think it will. I think it will it Will we go one more time? Come out? I don't know. When The quiz on my chair, My number? Oh, I'm not. [00:09:00] I Yeah. Now the equal. Do you mind if I interview you? Can you tell me your name and whether you're in support of the bell [00:09:30] or not? I'm Jim, and I am that It's about time that everyone got a quality. You know, it doesn't matter who you're in love with. If you want to be with them, why shouldn't you be allowed to be? And do you think the rest of New Zealand will have the same view as you hope so Do you think the bill will pass? I think it probably will. It's about time. I mean, it seems to be moving that way that the people, you know, they are kind of getting the idea that, you know, the old fashioned views [00:10:00] are well, yeah, they're old fashioned. now that they don't have, there's no reason for them to not be equal marriage now. Thank you so much in here. May I interview you? Of course. You. Excellent. Um, can you tell me whether you're in support of the bill or not in support of the bill? It's well over. Why? Why are you in one? Because I think the message that it sends to, um our [00:10:30] communities and to me that actually my life is equal. It's about that. Um do you think the rest of New Zealand will agree with you? I feel like the majority does. Listen to that. I was involved in the early stages of the civil Union discussions was that eight years ago and there was just no public acceptance for marriage at all. So that's what we had to go for. Whereas now society has moved on, and this is absolutely an option and is absolutely [00:11:00] sure thanks so much. 2468, 82468. Marriage is a civil right? What? Marriage is a civil right? What is right. [00:11:30] And you Can you tell me your names and whether you're in support of the bill or not I'm Emily. And yes, I'm totally in the borders. And yes, definitely that love is love. Like you cannot quantify it. This is something that everybody has a right to, and they should be able to be with whoever they feel are changing. [00:12:00] It seems stupid not to, um Do you think the rest of New Zealand are in agreement with you? I think, Yeah. I think the majority are with it. And you think the bill will pass? Hopefully, yeah. Hopefully. I hope it will. Thanks so much. How are you feeling? Are we gonna celebrate tonight? When this bill passes, I'm And [00:12:30] I'm one of the, um, people that's been working on the campaign for marriage Equality. We've been working really hard to organise Australia and also to lobby and support this bill.

IRN: 589
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/marriage_equality_march_speeches_29_august_2012.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004212
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089506
TITLE: Speeches before Marriage Equality march
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Andrew Cunningham; Brooklynne Kennedy; James Sleep; Joseph Habgood
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: Andrew Cunningham; Aotearoa New Zealand; Book of Leviticus; Brooklynne Kennedy; Campaign for Marriage Equality; Civic Square / Te Ngākau; Harvey Milk; James Sleep; Joseph Habgood; LegaliseLove (Wellington); Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Rally for Marriage Equality; Wellington; activism; civil unions; community; human rights; identity; law; marriage; marriage equality; politics; social; youth
DATE: 29 August 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Civic Square / Te Ngākau, Civic Square/Te Ngākau, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio of the speeches before the march for Marriage Equality. Speakers include Brooklynne Kennedy, Joseph Habgood and James Sleep.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: We are gathered here today to celebrate and to share our joy and our excitement and to show passionate support for the marriage of equality bill. Whatever brings you here today, whether you're here because you want to walk your daughter down the aisle because you want to support your gay brother, your transgender be grind your lesbian granddaughter, [00:00:30] your bisexual mum, because you like your son or your daughter to grow up, knowing that if they're gay, they will be treated equally and with respect and that their love will be seen as special as anybody else's. Whether you're here like me, because one day you'd really love to walk down the aisle and marry the love of your life. Or if you're just here because you genuinely believe in equality for all New Zealanders, Welcome before we get to Parliament today, [00:01:00] before we head to parliament today we have a few wonderful speakers to get us started, the first of which is the fabulous and beautiful Brooklyn Kennedy. Let's give her a round of applause. Can you hear me? I know you're expecting a speech about marriage equality, but honestly, that's [00:01:30] boring and expecting. Instead, I want to talk to you about strawberries. I hate them. They are disgusting and icky. They have no place in my kitchen or in the world. I want to campaign against strawberries. Let's rid the world of this scourge. This is how it works, right? If I don't like something, I can make sure no one gets to have it. No strawberries for you. No strawberries for you. No strawberry, [00:02:00] for all of you. We want Wait. That's not how the world works. I can just like something and it can exist. This means I think that I despise other people can participate in, like eating strawberries or being a national supporter, [00:02:30] huh? I guess I don't have to act like a petulant child. Why does it seem that a portion of our society hasn't seemed to grasp this concept yet? If you don't like something, don't partake in it. I don't like strawberries. I won't eat them. You can have my share. Don't like gay sex. Don't have it. I'll take your share. [00:03:00] Don't like a game. Don't want a gay marriage. Don't have one who I have yet to hear. A solid piece of evidence on why marriage equality shouldn't exist. And if I hear one more Leviticus quote, I am going to scream I as a Christian, I am very, very familiar with Leviticus. It's the boring chapter that tells you things that you can and cannot do, mostly those you can't. It's also the the Conservatives [00:03:30] Favour ammunition to fire at gay rights groups. The van is 18 22. States do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman. It is an abomination. Other things that Leviticus goes on to say. Our abominations are barred mixed fibre clothing, shellfish, bacon and all ham and burying a grudge. It further goes on to say, If your house gets mildew, you need to tear it down, wash [00:04:00] each stone and put it back together or else it is an abomination. Those who continue to live in it. Abomination. Kiss also says that you shall love your neighbour as you love yourself. Thus you shall not spread hate If you spread hate, you guessed it abomination. No one. No one abomination is greater than another abomination. All abominations are equal. So to those [00:04:30] Christians out there who are wearing their cotton poly bland suits eating their mint mint and cheese pies, spreading hate and buring a garage. I count five of our nations for you today, whereas I've only had gay sex. Perhaps you should worry about your own soul. Furthermore, the whole discussion about Leviticus would make more sense if we were a Christian nation, which we are not. Practise your beliefs and believe whatever you want. For all I care, you can worship your left [00:05:00] nipple as the great Holy nipple Lord. As long as you aren't hurting yourself or others, who cares? But here's the thing. I'll keep my beliefs to my life. You keep yours to yours. The other argument is it will damage the sanctity of marriage. Oh yes, two people who love each other vowing to love each other forever is so much more damaging to marriages sanctity than, say, divorce. Want to protect marriages, [00:05:30] sanctity and divorces. Oh, but also marriage is about procreation. Seriously, I mean, seriously. So when a man's going out to a bar, sees a girl he likes eventually gets engaged to her, his main thoughts are man. We will breed well together to have great Children. I don't think so. If marriage is just about procreation. Why do we let bearing women [00:06:00] and sterile men marry? Why do we let those past child bearing age marry? Why don't we annul all marriages that have gone 246 or 88 years without procreating? Because marriage isn't about procreation. Marriage is about love about commitment. Marriage is about sharing a bond and being with each other. Marriage Equality will not tear apart the morality of this nation or this [00:06:30] world. It will mean that more people who love each other will be able to marry. It will mean two people of any gender combination who love each other who can adopt a child and raise it in a happy home. It will simply mean more love. It will mean more happiness. It will mean more joy. If you disagree with more love, more happiness or more joy in this world, then you [00:07:00] are the sick ones. You are the abomination. Go! Go! Oh, are you speaking here? Here, bro? Thank you, Brooklyn. Our next speaker is the lovely Joseph. Yeah, well, everyone, Today is the day Today we [00:07:30] passed yet another milestone towards the New Zealand values of tolerance. A fair go for all and celebrating our distances being fully reflected in our laws. Among us today are people of different religions supporters of political parties across the spectrum, youth and adults LGBT, Q I and straight cisgender transgender and gender queer, all united by the common certainty that preventing people from getting married is just not safe. Today [00:08:00] we're marching for love and equality. We're marching to give all New Zealanders a fair go. We're marching so that we don't live in a society where the majority gets to decide how the minority has to live. But we're also marching so that our friends, our brothers and sisters, our sons and daughters, only just coming to terms with their own identity with their own sexual orientation and beset on all sides from religious bullying can look to the government of this country and hear them say with one resounding [00:08:30] voice. Who you are is OK. Oh yes, that is a message that needs to come across loud and clear, and that message is more important than any other that we hold against each other religious, political or otherwise. When a child realises that they may not be the gender that they were assigned at birth. That shouldn't mean that they know they get less rights as an adult. [00:09:00] When a young person realises they may be falling in love with someone and they're deciding whether they can fix that love or not. With all the heartache, headaches aren't cluttering. People are smart that that decision always goes with, even when you're not facing alienation from your friends and family. As a result, an obscure statute from the 19 fifties should be the last thing on their mind. We can all march today and the warm blow of knowledge that New Zealand is with us. The vast majority [00:09:30] of New Zealanders agree that love is love together. Let's all be empowered by their knowledge and thank the campaigners before us and their efforts in decriminalising homosexuality in 1980 1986 and making it a crime to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation in 1993 and winning the debate to allow couples to enter civil unions in 2004. Let's march knowing that on our side as public opinion, the weight of history and love itself. Let's make this happen. [00:10:00] Who Who? Yeah, yeah. Thank you, Joseph. Our next speaker is James Lee told everybody. I just want to say like, what a glorious day to be here together, celebrating the advancement of human rights in this country. We're here today to celebrate equality, something as beautiful as [00:10:30] equality as equal rights. So every single New Zealander can marry the person they love. And so we need modern legislation to make that happen. And that's what we're going to see today and hopefully in the next few months. But I just want to say that this is deeper than in any institution. This is about eradicating Homo homophobia and stigma that continues to sit on the shoulders of LGBT people across this country. This is about law reform that has the potential to radically change attitudes in this country. And that's what this is about. That's what we're marching for. [00:11:00] It's equality, and I want to send a message to the MP S this afternoon who continue to sit on the other side of this debate, and I want to use, uh, I want to use a phrase from half milk, um, our inspiration from San Francisco and that is that it takes no compromising to give people their rights. It takes no money to respect the individual. And it takes no survey to remove repression. Kha, let's take this fight all the way to Parliament. [00:11:30] We were going to have an open mic section now and I'd like to sincerely apologise. We're running out of time to do that because we need to get to Parliament at one. So I'm sorry about that. Um, but we do have time for, um a quick message from our safety team. Officer Andrew, Open mic at the other end then, eh? Hello? Wellington [00:12:00] didn't know if that worked. That's kind of cool. Hi, guys. Uh, today I'm leading the safety team. If everyone looks around, we have safety officers at the back and these people in the front, they're all wearing orange, orange, high visor, and they're here to keep us safe. I don't think just a couple of notes of housekeeping. First [00:12:30] things first. We have been given the roads to be used by the New Zealand police, and they're here today to keep us safe. So let's give a big round of applause for them. We've had a series of really, really amazing speakers today, and I just want to say something about this rally. This is a celebration. We are here to celebrate [00:13:00] marriage, equality and the passing of today's bill. When we march down the street today, we will be smiling. Our safety team will be smiling because today we make history today, every single one of us, no matter who you love [00:13:30] or who you care about or what your gender or sexuality is Today we are all equal and we can show New Zealand that amazing. We have had a long, long battle for equality and today we can take a break from having to fight and we can finally sit back and celebrate as we move towards a brighter future. [00:14:00] Yeah, so on that note, let's show New Zealand that we deserve this, that we really do just on a final note. Just so you guys are aware we may be encountering some resistance that we've heard over the stuff website. I just want to say they have a right to talk to, but we are more [00:14:30] and we are more joyful and we are more happy and more celebrating than any other group. So when we see people who say that what we're doing is not right. All we do is smile straight at them because we know that we will win this. I don't do that. Let's make it happen that way.

IRN: 587
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/marriage_equality_rally_29_august_2012.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003989
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089283
TITLE: Rally for Marriage Equality
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Bill Logan; Clare Brockett; Conrad Reyners; Helen Kelly; Kevin Hague; Kevin Haunui; Louisa Wall; Margaret Mayman; Rangimoana Taylor; Tau Henare; Tīwhanawhana
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; 2010s; African American; Anti-Apartheid Movement; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bible; Bill Logan; Campaign for Marriage Equality; Clare Brockett; Conrad Reyners; Fran Wilde; Helen Kelly; Jan Logie; Kevin Hague; Kevin Haunui; LegaliseLove (Wellington); Louisa Wall; Mana Party; Margaret Mayman; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Marriage Equality; Marriage Equality Campaign (Wellington); Member of Parliament; National Party; New Zealand Council of Trade Unions (CTU); New Zealand First; New Zealand Herald; New Zealand Labour Party; Parliament buildings; Rally for Marriage Equality; Rangimoana Taylor; Rosa Parks; South Africa; St Andrew's on the Terrace; Tau Henare; Te Paati Māori; The Wizard of Oz; Tīwhanawhana; Wellington; activism; allies; apartheid; bisexual; church; civil unions; community; discrimination; equality; faith; family; gay; heterosexual; holding hands; homosexual; homosexual law reform; human rights; identity; law; lesbian; love; marriage; marriage equality; marriageequality. co. nz; parents; politics; relationships; religion; scaremonger; select committee; social; straight; tolerance; transgender; visibility
DATE: 29 August 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the rally for Marriage Equality, held on the steps of Parliament, 29 August 2012 - the day that the Marriage Amendment Bill was introduced into Parliament by Labour MP Louisa Wall. Images from the rally can be viewed here and the subsequent Parliamentary proceedings can be heard here
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How are you feeling? Are we here to celebrate marriage Equality night when this bill passes Fantastic. Fantastic. I'm Conray Ray, and I'm one of the, um, people that's been working on the campaign for marriage Equality. We've been working really hard to organise this rally and also to lobby and support this bill. Um, I'm gonna be your MC for this afternoon's festivities. So So [00:00:30] what I wanna do first is I just want to invite the local iwi to come and sing a lovely to get us in the mood and to celebrate the spell. Yeah, what I can do, [00:01:00] Go ahead and 30 and I to the Yeah, they are [00:01:30] mhm. And then they keep that boy a He did not. Ah, I did, I but to a [00:02:00] Hey, you, everybody. [00:02:30] My name is and I would like to just talk about some of the people over many years who have made this happen today. Those of you who remember the eighties Fran Wilde, who put her, who put her political career on the line to come out in support of gay rights. I really do think without that lady, many of us wouldn't be here today so a round of applause. [00:03:00] And today we have another lady to thank from Parliament. Louisa Wall. We are not asking for anything that has not been given to everyone else in our nation. [00:03:30] And we love this nation as much as anyone. And if people say to me, if you don't like the law and you're going to protest, why don't you go to some other countries which don't have protest? And I say to them, No, you would fit in a lot better than I would mhm to all those people of the Rainbow Nation who are here today [00:04:00] and to all those families of those people all those mums and dads, brothers and sisters and friends who are not gay but are here supporting us today. Can we have a round of applause? Because they are with us? [00:04:30] I know there are some people who say that What is this going to do for marriage? Absolutely nothing. For those of you who already are and a lot for us and me marrying my partner is not going to upset your marriage. If you are straight unless you are worried there could be someone turning in your marriage you don't have to worry about it. And for the truly honesty, most of you. I don't want you [00:05:00] in our camp, not a to everyone who has arrived here today. Life, energy, be yours. And it is fantastic [00:05:30] to see so many different people from so many diverse backgrounds here today To celebrate fairness and to celebrate equality and to remove discrimination in New Zealand, I'd now like to introduce our very own Rosa Parks and the number one marriage equality campaigner in New Zealand, the labour MP For Mana Louisa, [00:06:00] it was a very, uh, important message that was given on the founding of our nation. We are one people. What I want to do in acknowledging all of you who are here today is to say we stand strong as one people in our country. I want to thank you all for being here today. And when we talk about the Rainbow Nation, they usually talk about South Africa. But when I look out there at us, here [00:06:30] we are the rainbow nation, uh, nation, not only politically and I do want to acknowledge that this is a cross parliament initiative. There are colleagues behind me from the National party from the Green Party, Uh, from the Maori party from, uh from who else? Guys. The Labour Party. Uh, we stand here with all of you and I'm just so proud and so humbled that you have come out today [00:07:00] in support of your fellow New Zealander. I'm very clear that we have an inherent discrimination currently perpetuated by the state of A against some of our citizens. In saying that I want to also acknowledge some other that are here who are representing our religious and what I've called for in this conversation about marriage. Equality is tolerance. Is understanding is a love for everybody that is part of our society. [00:07:30] So there are some of the here on the periphery of us. I want to acknowledge you. And I also want to say to you please do not fear what this bill will do. You will be able to, as Christians continue to define marriage for what it means to you. But please enable your fellow New Zealand citizens to get a licence from the state to celebrate the the the love that they have for each other. This is fundamentally about human [00:08:00] rights. This is fundamentally about ensuring discrimination is eradicated in our country. I'm so incredibly proud to represent all of you. And I thank you in solidarity because we will do this. But we will only do it together together. The people united can achieve everything and anything. So thanks to everybody for being here. And I just, [00:08:30] um I would like to acknowledge Conrad and our marriage equality campaign team that has people represented from right across our society. Obviously, we have our rainbow communities, but we also have our human rights communities. Uh, we have some of our religious leaders here, and I know Margaret's going to be speaking later, but I just want to thank you all that this is the beginning of a process. Tonight is going to be historic, and after tonight, there will be a lot more work to do. Uh, so I just [00:09:00] want to acknowledge that and thank you all. What a beautiful day that the God has made for us to be here at Parliament to champion marriage equality for all New Zealand citizens. And thank you for having the courage to put this historic bill to Parliament. Everybody in this crowd knows that it's time I'd now like to invite to from the National Party to come and speak. As Lewis said, This has been a true cross party initiative. All of the polls show [00:09:30] that New Zealanders everyday New Zealanders back our cause, and so it's great to see all political parties getting behind it to know, Um, what a turn up for the books? Um, look II. I have very little to say other than to say that it's the right thing to do. It's the kind thing to do. It's the state's recognition of your happiness. If you want to get married, um, how [00:10:00] how it affects me in my marriage. I still haven't worked that one out. So, um, if you're if you're struggling with that one, keep on struggling because there's no answer for it. If you want to get married, go get married. If you love somebody, the state gives you a licence to recognise that happiness and recognise that relationship. Um, those of you who saw my comments in The Herald yesterday about The Wizard of Oz Um yeah, yeah, I stuffed that one up a wee bit, but the fact [00:10:30] of the matter is that they went to The Wizard of Oz to get some recognition. They already loved each other. They already they they you already love each other. You're already in a relationship. It's just a bit of a licence. It's a state recognition of human rights. There's one last thing that I want to say that my nephew just, um, an hour ago, Uh uh, taught me and I should have known this. And we all should have known this. If we're scholars of history and lovers of of of, uh, the battle for human [00:11:00] rights and civil rights long, long time ago. Well, actually, it wasn't that long ago. It was only 60 years. Black people in America could drink from a tap as long as it wasn't a white tap. And this and and that's the that's That's the same thing here. And one day in the in America, black people, white people were allowed to drink from the same tap, and the same goes for marriage. Why is why is it that I have the right to marriage to [00:11:30] marriage, but you don't? And I think that's a crying shame. So tonight, hopefully we get to the vote and we start the change Thank you to and thank you for all of the hard work you've done. And thank you for all the hard work you're going to do when we win the vote tonight. And I'd like to uh, now ask Kevin Hague from the Green Party. Another MP who's been working really hard across the house to secure the votes to come speak, [00:12:00] Can I say you're all looking fabulous today? I want to start by by giving my thanks and appreciation to all of the amazing volunteer effort and energy that's gone into organising this event today. And [00:12:30] to say we're gonna need all of that and more in the in the days and months to come. So thank you all very much and a particular thanks, actually to the heterosexual people who've come out to support us in this You you're all amazing and and I really appreciate it, you know, in in this place it's almost unheard of that we get to deal with an issue [00:13:00] that has an absolutely compelling 100% evidence based argument behind it that brings huge benefit to so many people and harms absolutely nobody. And that is exactly what this issue is. It is. It is awesome that this measure is going to be backed tonight by MP S from all parties [00:13:30] except one. And I'm sorry, New Zealand first, I hope I hope that you will change along the along the journey as this bill goes through the house. I want to commit to you today that all of our 14 green Party MP S will be voting for the bill tonight and at every stage. Thank you. And lastly, [00:14:00] I want to give my particular thanks appreciation and offer of continued, uh, absolute support to the leader of our movement, Louisa Wall. Thank you, Kevin. And again, thanks for the hard work you have done and are gonna continue to do. I'd now like to invite Margaret Maman and Claire Brocket from Saint Andrews on the terrace to come and speak. They represent some of the diverse faith communities that have got behind this bill. And I think it's really, really important that we [00:14:30] recognise and that we remember that sometimes the loudest voices come from some of the smallest. And so I'd love to hear from Margaret and Claire. This morning I woke up with almost no voice, and I thought, Oh, bother. Some people are going to think that God is trying to keep me quiet. But then I remember that God has given me a wonderful partner of 16 years, Claire Brocket, who is also a Presbyterian minister and a wonderful leader [00:15:00] in our community. And so she is going to read my speech. Everybody, I'm actually delighted in my own right as well as the words I'm about to speak. I'm delighted to be here supporting the marriage amendment bill and celebrating the enormous support that New Zealanders have expressed for the bill. [00:15:30] I am speaking today because some of the strongest opposition to the bill is coming from religious people. And I want to assure you that there are many, many people of faith who are passionate about the bill, not despite our faith, but because of it. Marriage equality is a spiritual and ethical imperative because the overriding message of our faith is that we are called to practise justice and compassion. [00:16:00] Marriage has changed and evolved throughout history. It existed before either the church or the state had a role in it. Historically, people were considered married when one said to the other. I take you to be my husband or wife. But the decision to marry had communal implications. Marriage was about property, procreation [00:16:30] and gender inequality. So claims made by social and religious conservatives that marriage is unchanging or that there is one biblically sanctioned form of family are simply wrong. It is only over the last 150 years that heterosexuals have reinterpreted marriage [00:17:00] as a loving commitment between two people who are equals who may or may not raise Children. And it seems to me that it is precisely because heterosexuals have changed marriage from a gendered economic arrangement to a relationship of love and commitment that queer people are seeking to join it. The Bible says very little about marriage as we understand it today, and nothing [00:17:30] at all about same sex marriage. The texts that are used to condemn homosexual acts were written by people who had no understanding of the scientific fact that human sexual orientation is diverse. They believed that the earth was flat and that demons cause disease. We do not. The Bible has nothing to say about [00:18:00] two people who experience same sex attraction and love and who wish to commit themselves publicly to one another and to receive the benefits and protections available to citizens in such relationships. The primary question for us should be. Is this legislation that promotes justice or legitimates injustice? The answer is obvious. Justice should [00:18:30] be at the heart of the moral spiritual life. It is a moral issue, an issue of equal justice and respect, and not of sexual practise or family structure. The biblical call to compassion. To love your neighbour as yourself provides the faith, mandate for marriage, equality, religious traditions celebrate that humans are created [00:19:00] in and for relationship and that sexuality is God's life-giving gift. Today we affirm the dignity and worth of all people and recognise sexual difference and diversity as a blessed part of our created being. There can be no justification for discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity. [00:19:30] New Zealand is a country with rich religious diversity. No single religious voice can speak for all traditions on issues of sexuality and marriage. Nor should government take sides on religious differences. Therefore, religious clergy have the right to discern who is eligible for marriage in their own tradition. Despite the scaremongering. This bill [00:20:00] will not change that. In addition, all clergy should be free to solemnise marriages without state interference. Some religious communities already perform marriages and unions for same sex couples, even when the law does not permit same sex civil marriage. There is no religious consensus on this matter. Some churches [00:20:30] forbid divorce and remarriage, but we would not condone having these theological views inscribed in New Zealand law. It is exactly the same situation for marriage equality. The best way to protect our religious freedom is to respect the separation of church and state and ensure that there is equality under the law. As Christians, we believe that the faith [00:21:00] we affirm challenges us to speak and act for justice. For all who seek to express their love in the commitment of marriage, some people of faith will disagree. Others may be undecided. Common ground can be found when we reach out to promote what is best for individuals. For couples, families, Children and society. [00:21:30] There is nothing to fear and so much to bless and celebrate. Thank you. Thank you so much to Margaret and Clare. Now it's my great pleasure to introduce Bill Logan a man who stood almost 20 years ago well over 20 years ago on the lawns of Parliament and fought for our rights [00:22:00] to get through homosexual law reform. Bill, you got thanks for the invitation to speak. Today is a celebration. 30 years ago, we could not have contemplated the idea of marriage for gay men and lesbians. Today is a celebration of the readiness of society for the modest reform that this bill provides [00:22:30] for you Presumably put me on the speaking list to recognise the generations of activists who have worked together against the oppression of sexual minorities. The huge numbers of people who have in their different ways helped prepare the way for this bill, especially today. We should take the opportunity to think of all the people who are not from sexual minorities who have stood by us in this long [00:23:00] journey and will stand by us in the months ahead and in the journeys beyond, we think of the vast numbers of people of goodwill, people who believe in equality and fairness and decency, people from all walks of life. Without them, we would not be here most of all. Perhaps we should think of the families of gay, lesbian, bisexual trans people. Over the years, some of our families have had difficulties accepting us, [00:23:30] but the vast majority did accept us eventually and have cared for us and have encouraged us and have supported us through the difficult years. I think today of my mum she came from a A rather conservative background. But like all mothers, she wanted to be proud of her Children, and she wanted them to be happy and successful. So when I came out to her at the beginning of the 19 eighties, it was a bit difficult. It was a challenge [00:24:00] to be proud of a gay son or to hope for them to achieve happiness or success. But Mum was always there in so many ways for me and my friends. She was there through the political campaigns. She was there looking after people and all over New Zealand. You know, there are thousands and thousands and thousands of people like my mum. We should think of them today, and so should the politicians. [00:24:30] My my mum's old, an old old lady now in a home in bay. Next month she'll be 90 years old. She's frail, and she's not even really very verbal anymore. She's got, UH, family photos and Mementos on her walls and including photos of my partner. And when he comes with me to see her, she sometimes likes to introduce him to her friends in the home [00:25:00] as her son in law. If I think of who in my life will most be affected by this legislation, it's not me or it's my mum. This bill is important for her and people like her. I don't know if we'll have a marriage or not. I don't think she cares. But I think she does care that we cannot marry. She wants us to have the rights that other people have. [00:25:30] This is a modest measure. It won't solve all problems. It will merely remove a restriction and an inequity, and it will give a signal that's OK to be in a sexual minority. The removal of a restriction and inequity against sexual minorities in the marriage law will help reduce prejudice from wherever it occurs in schools, in workplaces and throughout society. It's a signal [00:26:00] that's OK to be in a sexual minority, and that's important not just for us but for everyone. Louisa Wall's Bill is not just about gay men and lesbians. It's about our mothers and our fathers and our wider families. It's about all the people who care for us. If we think of one thing which is different between now and in 1985 it there's been a massive of coming out. In 1985 [00:26:30] most of us were hidden. Now our workmates know our families know everyone has a cousin or a sister who's known as gay or a lesbian. We're not a secret anymore. And today there's this huge pool of people who support us. Now, whatever you think about politicians, most of them know how to count. And it's because of that huge [00:27:00] pool of people supporting us that this bill is going to go through in a fairly short time. We're about to take another step forward, so thank you all for coming here today. We're optimistic about this. Thank you for coming to be a part of this modest step forward. Savour the moment. [00:27:30] Thank you very much, Bill. I'd now like to invite our final speaker, Helen Kelly from the Council of Trade Unions to come and represent the everyday working Kiwis who also support this bill. Thank you and the CTU is so proud to be invited to speak to this very important rally on this historic and wonderful day in New Zealand's history. This [00:28:00] legislation is not only important for what it stands for the equality and the fairness that it brings, but it's also a chance for us to send a message, a message to New Zealand young people that actually what is important, what is worth standing up for is love is friendship is equality and is fairness. That's what's contained in this. And if more laws were based based on those principles, this country would be a better place. [00:28:30] I recently, uh, went to hear a speaker from the South African apartheid movement. He was talking about the wonderful contribution New Zealand has made to end that terrible system so far away. When apartheid was oppressing millions and millions of black people, people there, The thing that struck me, as he described that system was he said, the law, the law of the country told us where we could eat what buses we could catch, what schools we went to. My God. It even said [00:29:00] who we could love and who we could marry. And he thanked this country for bringing an end to that sort of discrim discrimination there. And today, this parliament a time to celebrate this parliament. It will bring an end to the discrimination here. I want to congratulate you. I want to congratulate our politicians. I want to congratulate Lassa for the stand [00:29:30] that she's taken giving us this opportunity. I'm confident that this law will go through and this country will be a better place for it. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Helen. And thanks to all our speakers, I'd also like to personally thank every single each one of you who submitted to your MP S through male tools who talked to your families and friends and who got out the message that New Zealanders really care about marriage equality and want to see this bill through. We're confident [00:30:00] we're gonna win tonight and we're confident we're going to win well and that's going to be fantastic. But also I want to remind all of you that once we do win, there's another process we have to go through. We're going to be going to select committee, which gives all of us another chance to have our say. So make sure you log on to the Marriage Equality Website, which is WWW dot marriage equality dot co dot NZ. There'll be more information on there about the select committee process. There will also be a handy tool that will help you submit to the bill so that you can ensure that you keep the pressure on and make sure we get this [00:30:30] through its second reading and its third reading and into law. I'd like I'd like now to, uh, bring the Loki I back to do a final to close the festivities today. Uh [00:31:00] um, [00:31:30] we're going to sing a song. And while we're singing the song, we'd like you all to join us if you know the words. And if you don't know the words, just hold hands in solidarity around the of this, uh, of this bill car. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he [00:32:00] fuck Fuck, They're fine. Oh na in my Yeah. Good. [00:32:30] Good day. Fine. Yeah, Good for Oh, thank you, everybody for coming now to all the MP S who have gathered behind [00:33:00] me. Get back in the house and go vote for this at 8 p. m. tonight. Thank you.

IRN: 593
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/preserving_the_aids_memorial_quilt.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003988
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089282
TITLE: Preserving the NZ AIDS Memorial Quilt at Te Papa
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Anne Williams; Rachael Collinge
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Anne Williams; Aotearoa New Zealand; Eve van Grafhorst; HIV / AIDS; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; Rachael Collinge; Wellington; archives; history; legacy; preservation
DATE: 28 August 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa, 55 Cable Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast textile conservator Rachael Collinge and textile conservation volunteer Anne Williams talk about the process of preserving the quilt panels. Special thanks to Te Papa for allowing us to visit and record in their conservation lab.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, we're coming up to a quilt panel, which is, um, we call the, um, Eve quilt. And so this is, um, the quilt that was made to commemorate, um, commemorate Eve. The quilt we've got here at the moment is quite a good, uh, example of the types of, you know in the way that illustrates the types of problems that we're coming up against with these, um, quilts [00:00:30] in terms of they're very much a product of their time in terms of the materials that have been used and the techniques that have been employed. So for a lot of the quilts you'll come across, there might be quite conventional quilt in terms of, you know, fabric pieced together to form the construction and then embellished with surface stitching. But equally there are, um, quilt squares, which, uh, have been put together using adhesive, [00:01:00] um, hot glue, cello tape pins and staples, and also the, um, materials used. You can see we've got a Barbie doll and some troll dolls and a lot of plastic, a lot of sequins, a lot of plastic components and foams which are inherently unstable and, uh, quite a challenge for us from a conservation perspective because there are limited treatment options. And once those degradation reactions [00:01:30] start, they can actually be quite rapid. So I guess everything has a life span, and what we do in the museum is we're trying to extend the life of the object. But of course, with a lot of these very contemporary items plastics and foams, it's quite fixed, and we have very little treatment options available to us. So for some of these, um, quotes we had we've had quite a discussion about what we should do and how we should approach it. [00:02:00] So I guess the key is really the photo documentation because for some components, they will degrade degrade to a state that they, um will you know, they're going to just be a hot, um that the foam expands it discolours. And they also can present problems to the, um, to the quilt in terms of the sort of release volatile. And, um might leave sticky residues and staining. So, [00:02:30] uh, yeah, so you can see that I think what's happening here. The objects conservator had a look at the troll dolls, but it looks like maybe some of the plasticizes are are starting to leach from the plastic, and so they become a little bit sticky. And so then they start to really become a bit of a magnet for soiling and dust. And Barbie is her plastic, um, is a very brittle and discoloured and yeah, so [00:03:00] it's quite, um, typical of some of the problems that we have to deal with. And also, I mean, they, as I said before, they are a product of their time. And while you've got a, um, a square over there, which has a lot of sort of, um, has been embellished with, um, stitching a lot of the quilt, um, squares feature, um, textile paint and and also because I can remember, you know, the eighties and those fabric paints. But was glitter paint and [00:03:30] the three dimensional puffer paint were really popular, and so they feature quite a lot in terms of the tributes and inscriptions that people have made. So at the time, rather than embroidering, people used those textile paints and also just felt pen and by and some of the pens and some of the inks that have been used for the inscriptions have been very light sensitive so they've actually faded. To the extent that it's you, you can't actually make out those tributes anymore. So [00:04:00] I guess the key for us is to have a really good um is to document them with photographs. And when they come in, I will do a, um I'd like a base condition report and record the current condition that they're in. And then I, um it's good for me that we have, um, a mixed lab and I can consult with other conservators. So when I need to, I'll be able to consult with the paintings conservatives about the, um the paints that have been used and also some [00:04:30] of the, you know, the problems that we are presenting with the, um, plastics and foams. But for some of it, it will just be a case of, um, you know, documenting. And we think we might at this stage what we are really just doing is I'm documenting the condition, um, and just, uh, and focusing on the storage. And so what we're doing for these is Andrew and I are surface cleaning, um, front and back of the quilts. [00:05:00] And what we use is just low powered vacuum suction, and that's just to remove loose particulate soiling because I've actually been outside and directly on the ground. So we're just doing that. And then, um, Anne Williams, our volunteer, is making the calico cover, so we're kind of constrained by space and resources and thinking about how the quilts are going to be used. So I guess you could look at a quilt piece like this and think, Well, the ideal storage [00:05:30] space would be to have it completely flat and not folded. But in terms of handling and providing access. And we've, you know, we we we have to make a compromise and we, you know, has to be able to fit on the shelving unit. So we are going to fold them and we will, um, pad around some of the elements. But some of these elements, like the Troll Dolls, because the plasticizer is starting to leach, we have to kind of provide a barrier between the fabric [00:06:00] and the troll doll, and we also might investigate using some charcoal cloth as well. That just might help and sort of, um, absorbing some of the volatile emissions that they release. So hopefully we can just it'll be about trying to slow down those, um, degradation reactions and just preventing any damage, Um, to the quilt that these present. But there might come a time, Um, and it's really hard to put a time frame on it where we [00:06:30] are faced with that decision where we have to actually remove a component from the quilt, which will be very heartfelt and a very difficult thing to do. Um, but we've we have discussed discussed it before. They were accepted into the, um, collection. And it's a problem that, you know, with contemporary collecting across the collections, not just with these quilts, but with contemporary sculpture and contemporary art and our and our textile collections as well. [00:07:00] Yeah. How long does it take you to surface clean? Uh, block? Well, um, as I can show you, what we've got that we use is that for a lot of the service cleaning that we do, we use adapter to dental aspirations. And you can imagine that, um, for a quilt of this size, it will take a really long time. So we've actually had to be quite realistic about what we can do. We've got a museum fat which has got a a bigger head, but it's got a variable suction. And, um, it [00:07:30] will take us, Um, maybe, you know, a couple of hours per quilt. This quote is going to take longer because we have to spend a little bit of time, um, documenting some of the degradation reactions that are starting to occur and also that we need to kind of work out just to go through each square. And we need we need to think about, um, incorporating something with the charcoal cloth. And we have to isolate some of these areas with some Mylar or [00:08:00] vector to prevent direct contact between the, um, troll and the, um, support it on. But at this stage, we're not doing any major, um, interventive remedial conservation. Um, it just really about stabilising it for storage. And then if it was to go for some of these cos if they were, um, to be, I guess if they're to be viewed, as they were intended to be, which I think they were just laid out flat on the ground, they'll be fine. But if someone [00:08:30] said well, actually, we want to put them on the wall, then as a conservator will have to come along and reassess that, because they you know, they has to be structurally intact and stable enough to support the weight of the quilt. And then all you would have to consider all these. You know, you see, do see some areas where there's some failed stitching and, um, areas where there might be some stitched support work or some remedial, um, conservation may be required, but that would be dependent on [00:09:00] I guess, what the requirements are. But at this stage, it's more about we just want to, um, surface, clean them to remove their loose, particular soiling document, the condition that they're in and the materials that they're made of. So that just will just to be aware of any, um, long term problems, you might have and, um, have them stored in a way that, you know, it's not gonna cause damage and that they'll be, you know, they can actually, when they bring them out on [00:09:30] their nice calico covers are actually quite easy to handle. And, um, yeah, I mean, usually with the quilts we roll because we don't like folding things because we don't like creases because it's, you know, it's the idea that that's where it will fracture along a fold line. But we can't with these because we can't roll. Um, the the quilts, if they've got these three dimensional, um, [00:10:00] elements, they don't they don't want to roll. I mean, would we might snap Barbie. Um, we're just folding, you know, along the joints. So we're trying to avoid any fold lines across the panels, and, um, so that you'll see that our storage cover actually conforms to the size of one of these panels you've got, um, a fold We originally that they have been folded here. Do you [00:10:30] have some sort of process that you allow that to ease out? Well, sometimes it will ease out, Um, just sitting flat, and sometimes we do, um, we can kind of relax the crisis, and we with sort of a little bit of, um um Well, I was gonna say moisture, but it's not wet moisture and weights and things, but, you know, you do need to be careful of dye, bleed and all that sort of thing as well. [00:11:00] So we're not going to do that at this stage and because, you know they've each, um, section has been made by different people. There are a lot of different tensions happening within the quilt. So a lot of these creases and things can't be completely eased. You sometimes just have to accept that's how it is. And that's how it wants to be. And of course, there might be areas where it will fracture at some point. But, [00:11:30] um, you know these things, you know, everything has a life and what they're trying to extend their life. I guess when you were saying about writing degradation reports on on various parts of the quilt, what kind of things are you looking for? Um, I guess we, um well, I, I guess this is a good example Here is that you can kind of you can see that this troll doll with the plastic that I think what's happening [00:12:00] is that the plasticizer is leaching from the plastic, and so it becomes a little bit sticky, and you can see how, um, it just sort of all the dust and soiling products. I don't we'll have to. We might have another look at that, but because it might not actually just be soiling products it might actually be, um, part of a degradation reaction that's happened. It's just come out this morning, so we haven't had a really good look, but also Barbie. I mean, you know that Barbies can, um, the type [00:12:30] of plastics that they they're made from and, um, haven't been quite a fan of Barbie growing up. Um, you can see that the you can just see that there's been some colour change and the plastic off her arms. They're getting a little bit cloudy and white in areas. And if I, you know, I will give it a little prod and it will have sort of a quite a brittle feel. I suspect about that. And so we just need to move our way [00:13:00] through each, um, section of the quilt and just sort of identify these problems as well. But we also look at things like, you know, what the tributes and the inscriptions have been made of. I mean, here is this is quite topical. It's been there's quite a bit of, um, glue, um, residue, because that's what they've chosen to apply their, um, styles with. And here we are. There it is. There's the, [00:13:30] uh, the glitter paint. And you can see that for some of us, it's interesting for some of the, um, that three dimensional puff paint. There has been, um, quite a colour change that has faded and it cracks and it flakes as well. And, um, yeah, did the photo transfer take a special, um, technique just to conserve them or [00:14:00] Yeah, no, I think that we're not going to, um, do anything in particular. But also, I guess, um the other important, uh, factor is that a lot of the, um, dyes and banks and, like the of tributes are very, um, very sensitive to fading, so that for some panels, the the tributes are completely have faded to the extent that you can't [00:14:30] actually make them out. So it will be important for us to monitor the, um, any colour change and fading, and we will will from now. Although we don't know what the, um illumination history of was for this object. Now that it's in the museum, we do actually record our light levels, and we actually keep a record of the light exposure that it will have while it's in the museum. It's always difficult when objects. Come on. Because you don't know. You know how much light exposure [00:15:00] that they have had. But we do know that we need to kind of be aware of about some of the inks and paints. And I guess the the transfers that have been used because they will be prone to some fading, but it can vary quite a lot. It's quite interesting, really. That, um, you know, you don't always know what people have used and what it's been applied to. Um, [00:15:30] I guess over a period of time, you can see that, you know, adhesives, um yellow, dark and and discolour so they can actually become a little bit unsightly. This isn't too bad. So your condition reports. Are they quite, uh, extensive? I'm just thinking, Like, with this one here, we've got all these little stars. Do you have to note, you know, how how the stars are when they first come into the museum? Well, what we will do, because there is that, you know, they're all large works is probably that I know I'm not going to record every [00:16:00] single loss that occurs on here. But I will say that there are some losses and because it's been photographed, it will be clear. And the photo so that provides our photo documentation is actually is an essential part of the Russian report. Because I think I also find that if you write a lot which will be easy to do with these, it doesn't mean that people necessarily read it. And so you, um [00:16:30] Yeah, and I guess other conservatives, on the whole will read it and, uh, will have seen this type of damage and this type of condition. So when you sort of mention that everyone's kind of on the same plane and knows what you're talking about and the language that you use, you don't have to Fortunately, mention every single star. But if it was going out online will be photographed again. And I might But, um, I'd probably just take it, you know, off we will just take a photograph [00:17:00] of it. And if there's areas of concern, we will do like a overlay and just sort of draw it on and highlight it. But that's a really good way of us. Um, sort of monitoring the ongoing condition of these items is the photo documentation, because that's what we have. Um, Well, while we have records on our database and all the images are on there as well in conservation, we also have hard copy files as well. So, um [00:17:30] yeah. So whenever this comes out, it will be, um, assessed against that base report on those base. Um, you know that those initial, um, photographs that were done, What's it like working on something like this? I found that they have been, um, very emotional. And it's, um I don't think there's any, you know, even though we see [00:18:00] it work on amazing things. And I just you know, I'm just so lucky that with these pieces, I don't think that nothing has had the effect has affected me personally in such a way as these. Quil. I think the first few times I had them out, I just couldn't stop crying. And it's I'm better now. But sometimes I You know how you have to distance yourself and step away from it a little bit, but they'll still come across something that will just kind of, um, connect [00:18:30] with you, and it just starts you off again. So, um yeah, and so and I know There's a couple of quilts that really get me going that I just just have to accept. That's what's gonna happen when I'm working with them. I just have to have my tissues handy. You know, every everyone's really supportive and understands because everyone has a similar response to them. I think so. You can't divorce yourself from us, But yeah, there's just a lot of, um, love and heartache and you really feel [00:19:00] it. And I think the the the panels that have really spoken to me I love when you know the mothers have done things. And as a mom to a little one, you know, you see the pictures of the little boys and you think, Oh, my gosh, um starts you off There's just so much love on each panel that you just really feel it. They gonna make me start, Yeah, take my breath away and, you know, having read so much about the panels, But to see them [00:19:30] in the flesh and real is is, is breathtaking. Um, a group of us went to Auckland to assess the, um, the quilts and we're in a church hall and I'd have to say by the end of the day, and I knew I was going to be a wreck. So I took all my boxes of tissues, but I went through them because we're in the church hall and they have really horrible toilet paper on the bathrooms. And so my nose was the end of the day. Was I had this sort of, um, reindeer, red nose and poached. Yeah, guys, it was just terrible, [00:20:00] but, um, but at the end of that, we went, had a little bit of time in the cathedral, and it was just really nice to kind of spend that time together in the cathedral and just kind of take a moment because a whole day of I, you know, I found it. Um, it was it was really, really, really tough, actually. Yeah. Have you had any surprising discoveries? [00:20:30] I discovered a, um, a panel that was made as a tribute to someone that I knew, Not particularly well, but it was actually it was really nice to see Arthur's panel. Um and I didn't know him well, but he was my aunt's hairdresser, and he had been really good to me when I was young at a family wedding, and we had a lot of fun. And there's some great photos of Arthur and I together. And he was, um, yeah, so it [00:21:00] was actually, really it was. It was nice to see Arthur's panel. And, of course, his was the most challenging panel from a conservation perspective. And I thought that would be just That's just typical for, um, for for Art Arthur's panel to feature a big, crazy headdress made out of kind of degrading foam. Huge. So it was I went great. Thanks. [00:21:30] So, yeah. So how does that work when you maybe have a panel and a block of eight that is degrading more than the others? How do you protect the other ones? Well, I think, um, what we're going to do with the Troll dolls is we are kind of trying. We'll try and sort of, um, incorporate a barrier between the troll dolls and the ground fabric that they're on. And we will also think that we might, [00:22:00] um, try and do something with some, um, activated charcoal cloth. So on that panel. So we need to just sort of spend a little bit of time thinking about how we're going to actually do that. And I'll probably work in with the, um, objects conservator, because she's sort of comes across this sort of problem on quite a regular basis, and so we'll just have to kind of have a think and work something out. So while this morning, I thought I will be able to surface clean this in a couple of hours that this particular panel [00:22:30] is going to take a little bit more time. It's probably gonna take, um, yeah, the just the rest of the day to really to work out to surface cleaner, to document it and to work out how what we should do with those plastic dolls. I think that we might actually, um, surface clean them And, um so that everything's always photographed before, during and after treatment and so that, you know, um, we'll be able to sort of monitor, um, [00:23:00] the the degradation reactions, I guess. But I am aware that for some things, that can be really, really rapid. So how do how do you photograph something so large? But, uh, we do have a, um, a photography department, and they have been able to, um to to to photograph it and you, you might like to talk to them about it. I think they've got a system whereby they can actually have it down flat in the studio, [00:23:30] and then they can go up onto the towards the ceiling and do it overall. Or they might have done smaller sections and then just kind of pieced it together afterwards. So I'm not sure how they've actually done it this time. But for me, since those overall photos have been done, I will just probably just do some detail images of the areas that are of interest and concern to us. It's so large. How do you get to the centre? To start [00:24:00] we have to do is because I really want to, um, see between the front and the back. So we've got it on a large table and there'll be two of us is that we just have to, um, you know, we just kind of have to pay out to fold and just fold it over and then do that section and then section by section. So sometimes with things that you can are flat and large that you want to, um, clean, you can sort of roll them onto a roll and work as [00:24:30] you go and then roll the bit and then do that section. Um, so it's best to adapt that process, really. But we can get around most sides of the table, and you can do as far as your arm can stretch really the night before. What about something like with Barbie's legs kind of sticking up? Do you actually in storage? Do you put her legs down? Do you move? The object is that we will just have a look at Barbie and see how she's feeling how she wants to rest. So if [00:25:00] it makes sense for us to put her legs down to the resting flat, we will do that. But if it's proved to be, that's because, um, the plastics, um, the Plasticide is leached and it's become brittle and stuff. I'm not going to move Barbie's legs, and I will just I'll just pick around her so that she's kind of supported, Um, and we just just have to accommodate her as she is. So there are some elements here that we just have to kind of cover [00:25:30] and pack out if we get the, um the odd Quil, which is, you know, quite flat and has been pieced in a quite conventional manner. So it's just a stitched embellishment. We can, um, we're just, um, cover interleaving with and then just folding them and they're going in the calico covers. But we've decided on the calico, the unbleached calico rather than the the because it's actually I think it's going to, um, [00:26:00] stand up better. You know, the the is very slippery and difficult to handle with the size of them. And, um, if they're taken on to the you know, the covers, it all kind of goes together in a quite a neat package. So if someone's not familiar with the handing requirements and you know the ti ti after a couple of uses looks, um, untidy. Um so those covers with their ties, there's no ties [00:26:30] to get lost everything all together. It's quite straightforward. In terms of that, you just it's like an envelope that you unfold, and then you can, um so I think they'll well, I hope they'll prove to be quite a useful thing in terms of storage and having to if they need to be transported within the museum. If they were to go to another institution, would would do something a bit different. But if they needed to be, um, moved within the museum for people to look at the you know, I think [00:27:00] that should be, um should work well and the size fits between doors and, you know, say all those handling requirements you need to think about, and if they get a bit grubby, they can go on the washing machine now, So that's that's good. But it's important for me that they that they look, that that they're important. And I guess for lots of us, you know, we often show our love for things with when we do baking [00:27:30] for people. And for I think, for sometimes for conservators and volunteers here working with the textiles or or for me, for me, the way of showing love for something is to have it looking stored. And um, yeah, I think you know, I, I It's important for me that they have a a good storage solution and that it looks good and it looks like people are caring for us. I think it's nice to see the love [00:28:00] that's continued on, but it's not treated as an object. It's more than that. And the respect that is shown to the course is so important. Yeah, II, I Well, I think that's the nature of the object. Is that isn't it really? But, um um, marriage. This is, um, Anne Williams, who is one of our great treasures here at te Papa, who has worked as a volunteer at conservation [00:28:30] for 33 years. And we I just so fortunate and lucky to have Anne and Anne's been helping me with the, um, the AIDS Quilt project by making all the covers the car for the storage of the quilt. So and do you want to just talk a little bit about what we've been doing with the, um, with the quilt cover? Uh, yes. When we looked at the quilts, uh, we realised that, um, the design had to be something that could be worked by anyone that wanted to look [00:29:00] at them. And so rather than make a bag, which was difficult to put the quilts in because they are quite large and heavy, uh, we decided to, uh, make a sheet effect, uh, folding the sides in and then folding the other two sides in so that the corners were all protected and covered, um, and then tied with tide. So tie so that they would hold together. Um, anybody that looks at them can put them back the same way as they found them. [00:29:30] And they are protected because we have left the tie underneath, uh, to protect them as well. So it's been quite a job. We've had the mess of calico that's needed to be washed and, um, irons, and it's actually quite a demanding job making these covers. Uh, the quilts themselves in their folded, uh, state have been measured so that, uh, uh, the covers themselves that each particular one, [00:30:00] we have, uh, ensured that, uh, they're neatly done so that I think it helps when people, uh, handle and look at these things that they will take particular care. Uh, they are, uh, not exactly fragile. But if they are, uh, mishandled, uh, we're not going to have them for very long. It's a way of, um I said it was a little bit of our way of showing love for these textiles that are that [00:30:30] come into the collection. Is that you always have them looking. All your storage boxes and supports are really beautifully made and really well executed. These ones, uh, these quilts, in particular are special because, uh, they memory quilts and their memory memory quilts for, uh, a very special reason. Um, and we can be thankful now that, uh, life for people who are suffering in this particular way is much [00:31:00] easier. And the prognosis is much better than it was in these early days when there was much sadness and and discrimination. Yes. Had you come across the quilt before? No, I hadn't. I I had. I had known these quilts existed, but I hadn't seen any of them at all. Um, I knew that, um, they have been done with people who are not necessary. Uh, needle workers or even [00:31:30] stitches or sewers. Um, but they're quite extraordinary. What was your reaction when you first saw them? Um, this is the only one that I've seen opened. And my reaction is that for something that's so sad, they are extremely colourful and and very pleasant to look at. So do you delve much into the stories behind the panels? Do you do research into that um, at this stage, [00:32:00] I'm I'm not. I just don't have the, um, the time to do it, But our curatorial, um, team Will will probably do more of that. Um, you know, sometimes for a treatment you do need to do if you're going to, um, a remedial treatment or an interventive treatment. It's often at that point that you need to do a lot of more more in depth research on your object. But at this stage, it's really about just, um we're [00:32:30] just focusing on having them, um, working on the storage requirements and the and the that base, um, condition report. Really? And when you say remedial treatment, what does that involve that if we were if you wanted to, um, intervene with the objects and forms of it needed to have, um, stitch support. So the be needed to if there were some loose elements and we needed to secure them. So if there was some, there was some, um, beating or, um, a troll. [00:33:00] I was about to fall off, and we actually had to stitch it back on, or there's some failed stitching or the supports got a tear and for it to be displayed that needs to be stabilised then. That's what I consider to be an interventive treatment. If we, um, have to, um And even if we have to remove, uh, if there was some unsightly, um, staining or soiling? Um, do [00:33:30] you have anything like the, um, aids quilt and papas collections in terms of, um, What it was there for? What? It, um, off the top of my head. I can't think of anything. That's I think the the the this, you know, the quilt is actually quite unique, and it really is a product of its time. And, um, but, I mean, we do have lots of things in the collection that do present, um um, terms, [00:34:00] um, are a a conservation challenge in terms of the materials that they're using. So the problems that we're, um, that these quilts of illustrate is not unique to the quilts that's, you know, across the collections. Really? I think the, um, history collection just acquired some Barbie dolls. So it's, um it's kind of a very real concern to the wider [00:34:30] museum community as well. I mean, there's actually, um, you know, these conservation conferences dedicated to the subject of modern materials and what we're going to do with these degrading foams and plastics. It's actually quite interesting about within, um, the conservation community. There's not always an agreement about what the the best approach is to do, and that's actually really interesting. I was at one conference where you know all those fabulous designer chairs from the fifties sixties [00:35:00] and seventies with the moulded foam and and plastics. They are presenting quite a problem in a lot of a lot of museums. And there are groups of people that say, You know, there's, You know, one solution would be, well, let's just remove the foam and replace it with a more, um, stable archival foam. But as soon as you have done that, it's not the, um, the chair that it was. And so some people actually believe Well, actually, someone [00:35:30] in the museum community with that chair has to leave it as it is. So we have. Even if it is, the foam degrades and it goes a little bit like hokey pokey sometimes, and so it will swell. And then all your seams and your upholstery split so that it becomes quite distorted. Um, it it does. It becomes a lot like sometimes like that hokey poke when you leave it out on the kitchen bench sort of sticky and oozy. And, um so you know, you know what? What should you do or the one thought is that you remove [00:36:00] the foam, and one thought is actually important for us to have a record of the object as it is with no intervention as such. And we can look at these things we can do about our environment to kind of slow down those, um, degradation reactions. So, um, if we can reduce slight exposure and keep our temperature quite low and avoid extreme fluctuations and, um, relative humidity and temperature, we might be able [00:36:30] to slow them down. But I think that they do get to a point where even with all those things, that the reactions, you know, that reaction is very rapid. So we have had things in the collection we had a couple of years ago, a hat that was made out of plastic bags and it came in, and within a year, it's had really started to to grey, it sort of looks like a head da draught. And now It's probably just a pile of [00:37:00] white plastic flakes, and it wasn't accepted into the collection, but it was really interesting to kind of watch that and see what happened. It was it was really rapid. So given the best care in the world, how long do you think these will survive? I think it's really difficult to put a time frame on because, you know, um but I guess it'll be, you know, be interesting to see, But I, I just wouldn't like to [00:37:30] Wouldn't like to say really. But, um, the other thing is that with a lot of, um, materials now and people are concerned about land film So, you know, artists that are using, um, found objects or plastic bottles and plastic bags, You know, they often have additives, um, added to them to design to accelerate that degradation reaction because people are concerned about landfill. [00:38:00] So I know that they've been putting things like starch additives into some of the plastics just to kind of because, you know, that sounds like it would be a good idea. But if you're an artist and you choose to use those materials, they will have a a fixed life span.

IRN: 582
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/cos_vicki_anne_and_bronwyn.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003987
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089281
TITLE: Vicki-Anne Heikell and Bronwyn Officer - Creating Our Stories
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Bronwyn Officer; Vicki-Anne Heikell
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Bronwyn Officer; Vicki-Anne Heikell; archives; education; history; identity; legacy; library; preservation; volunteer
DATE: 9 August 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: National Library of New Zealand, 70 Molesworth Street, Thorndon, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Vicki-Anne and Bronwyn talk about various practical ideas for maintaining a personal or group archive.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm Vicky Anne, and I'm a paper conservator by training. I currently work at the National Library as a field conservator. So my role is to advise, um organisations and institutions, um, on the preservation of their documentary heritage collections. I'm Bronwyn Officer, and, um, I'm the senior sound conservator at the Alexander Turnbull Library, part of the National Library. And, um, my background [00:00:30] is in, um, music composition and audio visual management and, um, 25 years experience, uh, working in the Alexander Turnbull Library, preserving the sound collections, which means working with curators to, um to store and, um, transfer sound recordings now into a digital medium. Can you tell me the difference between what preservation is and what conservation is? I [00:01:00] guess preservation is that broader context, and it's all the steps you take to minimise deterioration. So how you store it, the record keeping systems, you use any policies related to access and display and disaster planning. So, in a sense, conservation falls under the preservation umbrella, and it's and conservation is more about determining, um, priorities for setting the condition of items and repairing and conserving them. I would agree with [00:01:30] that, and, um, just incidentally, um, restoration is, is about restoring an item to its original condition, but it's not usually practised in the library and archive preservation, since it it can destroy some of the, you know, essential, um, historic information, um, related to a subject. For example, we have some recordings that are made on tape of a cylinder and the cylinder [00:02:00] that, um, had a a swishing of the stylus so that on the tape you wouldn't expect to hear that. But if you if you remove that for some reason, then you wouldn't know it's background or its provenance, just keeping with definitions for a minute. Can you tell me what the difference is between, say, an archive, a library and a museum? And that's a hard one, because they often appear to be similar repositories. So this is kind of a personal, um, definition. [00:02:30] I always think of an archive as material that's, um, created or received by a person or a family or an organisation, and it can be in the written form. It can be paper documents, but also audio visual material, um, textiles, three dimensional objects, and I see a museum as a place that's devoted more actively to acquiring, conserving, um, in the study of objects or that have the scientific and historic and artistic value. So they're similar, but different, I think [00:03:00] I don't know. Hm. I think, um, and there are different types of libraries as well. Um, for example, you have a lending library, uh, like a public library. And you can also have a research library which performs a different function. So the Alexander to library performs more of a research library function, and I guess similarly, you can have, um you know, uh, in the course of business and a business creates their own archives, the museum can have an archive. Um, and you know, [00:03:30] people and, um organisations and clubs. So there's no real clear definition between what the three are, Um, not in my opinion. I know there's specific functions and, um, you know, like a government archive has very specific functions under the Public Records Act. Um, and, um, a national museum has, um, specific functions in the sense that it it collects, um, objects of scientific, historical and artistic [00:04:00] value to the nation, and more broadly, but yes, those are things that, um, curators and archivists would have more of an opinion on probably than a conservator. So say I'm a queer individual or I'm part of a some kind of queer group and we've got material. Do you think it's better to kind of archive that material in house, you know, as in the organisation? Or actually give it to, um, some other archive [00:04:30] or or library? If you were donating it elsewhere, what kind of things would you be thinking of? Well, as as a conservator, if somebody came to me with the material, the first thing I'd be asking is, Do you have a right to make decisions about this material? So do you own the material? Do you have the right to, um, make decisions about it, or even deposit it or lend it to anybody? For me, that's the biggest, um, things and also who [00:05:00] you are as an organisation. Um, you know, do you want to be donating it to a to a larger institution? And, um, will you still want some connection and how how are you going to maintain that? And how are you, you know, and it's your relationship with those, uh, those institutions. That's the most important. So I guess before you donate things, you'd probably be wanting to develop the relationship with the key people who will be responsible for the care and preservation and maintaining that collection. In the first [00:05:30] instance, you also have to be aware that the key people may leave and you have to think of the long term. And how is that relationship going to continue? And that they and those institutions may also have a particular focus that that might not be yours and for example, uh, exhibiting it? They may have a particular, uh, view on how they might want to exhibit it, and they might have a particular view on who they want to, um, lend it to. So those [00:06:00] are things you need to have clear in your, um, clear before you donate the material. Not, um, after because once once it's donated those things, those relate those negotiations. I guess the power construct changes slightly, in my opinion. So in the New Zealand context, what kind of organisations are out there that would accept, um, queer related material I, I don't know as a conservator and and and I guess part of my role as a field conservator is that I talk with organisations [00:06:30] with a view to them preserving and keeping the material themselves rather than, um, donating to, uh, larger institutions or archives. Well, the Lesbian and gay Archives of New Zealand leggings, um, would be one group. So the there's the Lesbian Gay Archives of New Zealand, which are what specifically for queer content. Are there other [00:07:00] places like, um, and that that have, um te papa has, um, collections of queer material. I don't know that it's held together as a queer, um, collection. Um, it's, um it's a curator of history that is responsible for the acquisition of that, but I don't know, um, I also don't know how it's catalogued in terms of, um whether if you were searching for it, it would come up as a discrete collection or just part of the history [00:07:30] collection within Papa. But, um, yes, so they have ephemera. They have, um, holds collections from the hero parade and things like that. But I don't know if it's, you know, housed as a as a discrete collection. And there's the Charlotte Museum up in Auckland. That is, uh, that's specifically lesbian, isn't it? Yes, specifically lesbian and the and [00:08:00] legs. Um, it's not just lesbian and gay, but, um, covers material. Um, from all of the communities. What are some of the benefits of? Even though, um, things might be a bit more dispersed in a larger place. Say, like, Papa, what would be some of the benefits of depositing with a larger organisation? It would come under, um, the [00:08:30] collection management process, which would involve storage and and access to, um, controlled environments for the particular materials and just the whole collection management process. Um, and they are collecting organisations. So they have staff whose business is about, uh, collecting and maintaining those, um, collections. And I guess, um, the the appropriate environmental conditions and, um, the [00:09:00] policies which cover those collections. So it's a lot. It's a lot harder to de accession, um, collection items or, you know, get rid of collections once they're in a collecting organisation than if you were doing it to yourself. And what about, um, some of the benefits of donating something to say, like the Charlotte Museum or Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand? That those kind of niche archives or museums? What would be some of the benefits. [00:09:30] I guess your collection is then within a continuum of a of A, you know, a lesbian archive or a lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender archive. Um, and so you can see how your collection fits within the wider New Zealand and international context. I guess if you didn't think it was such a good idea to donate your collection to another organisation and you wanted to keep it yourself or within your organisation, what would be some of the things that you would need to think about? I guess [00:10:00] even the smallest archive or the smallest collection, and you've made a decision to keep it, uh, keep it together. Uh, it needs a policy every small, no matter how small. Um, and it might be as simple as why does this collection exist? What's the purpose of your, um, archive? Because if you don't know that, then you know you're then open for it, becoming either something else or dispersing and not being an archive at all. So that would be the key thing [00:10:30] for me. And I have this little mantra. I often say to groups, uh, the other things you need to think about is, um, I guess your collection. If it's once you've decided you're an archive, what invariably happens is that your collection will grow so you might have five boxes in year one. It's likely because you've decided to become an archive that you will grow and you have to be aware of that. And you have the My little mantra is control, [00:11:00] content and condition. If you're going to set up an archive, you need to know what you have. So that's the control. It's good record keeping. You need to know what's in it. The better the records, the better preserved they are. So this is from a conservation point of view and, um, the condition of those, um, works. So the range of things and items and and all of that again relates to your policy, Because why why do you exist? And what's the purpose? You might want to actively start retaining or acquiring things, so you need to know what you've already got in order [00:11:30] to make those decisions in your experience. Why do people want to set up archives? Because they believe they're important? They believe they're important to their community of interest, but they also believe they have a uh uh, they're important to a wider context. So and I think that they're they're both memory keepers and pointers to the future. I guess so They're, um, like just said it a, um at a recent conference that, um, [00:12:00] archives are their, um, profits of the future. And they kind of do act like that because you you go forward by looking back. So I think that's probably one of the key reasons most people want to keep things generally. So within that foundation policy, what kind of language do you use? Is it quite broad or is it very specific? Gosh, that's a big question. I think it's things that we grapple with as large organisations about collection policies. But I think, [00:12:30] uh uh by answering, I guess in a simple way. First, why do you exist? And then from then, everything else, um, should fall. But you do have to get down eventually to the specifics. So why are you collecting certain materials or why are you not collecting certain materials? Because that's important because there's certain sensitivities around things like that, and I guess the only thing I would suggest is that you make friends with people who are doing similar [00:13:00] things and you look at other people's policies because there's there's general principles you want to apply. And then there's things specific to your organisation. So yes, make lots of friends with people like the sole archivists group with community archives, with all of those people who have people who have expertise and experience and in doing similar things, setting up archives and running them. And your experience is that quite a hard process to go through for organisations to actually kind of work out why they're there, why [00:13:30] they're doing something. What, what they want to hold on to? Yes, and And I guess because it also, um, it's something you have to constantly, um, revisit and revise because sometimes it changes over, you know, 10, 20 years, and you have to keep reviewing what it is you've you've done. And also particularly with small organisations, you often have a turnover of and and typically volunteers have a turnover of volunteers. You have to kind of continue to review the material. [00:14:00] You review your policies to make sure it is what you you know. It's very easy to say, Oh, well, we'll take this material as well. And very soon you've got this kind of large collection with no particular Um, focus. That's not to say you are so focused that you don't you you dismiss other collections, but you've got to have, I guess, archivists and curators of a particular mind that they know how to determine what what are the important things to retain. It's good to [00:14:30] have that written down as a as a policy. And, um and you may, um, I. I like the idea of making friends because you might may find that your collection overlaps some other collections, and you may have to say no to some things. It's yes. And it's something that the, um, national institutions do quite regularly. You know, they they keep in contact with each other. They know what the other is acquiring because you don't want to be competing. [00:15:00] You know, there's only a small resource for, um, you know, for maintaining your archives and you don't want to be collecting things that other organisations are already collecting as well. So at the start, how do you focus down your collection? What? What you're going to collect. How do you work out what you want to collect? Well, presumably it's if you you've decided to There must be some sort of, um, a focus to it already under the bed. [00:15:30] The boxes under the bed may relate to a particular person or a family or an organisation. So you've got the basis for looking at what you are as an archive or if you're the you know, um, and what your purpose was. So and some of that collecting, particularly by people, is very idiosyncratic. But it's then the archive of this particular person or this group. So you have usually when you've made the decision to become an archive. You you you know what? You It's just about Nutting out the the purpose and the written down form, I guess. [00:16:00] What kind of things do people collect? Everything they do, they collect everything. Um, um, I know that some people I've worked with have collected a range of paper bags from department stores from, you know, the, um 19 fifties right through to to now the, you know, the the branding. And so they become interesting collections in themselves, and sometimes those collections become interesting for other reasons, or people have collected badges and pins [00:16:30] from things and t-shirt T-shirts wigs very popular. So there's all there's a whole range, and it's, you know, it said human Endeavour of keeping something because it triggers a memory. I guess you mentioned the word resource before, and I'm thinking that kind of resourcing an archive, even if it's really small, can be really resource hungry, both in terms of people and money. Do you have any tips for [00:17:00] when you're first starting out to work out how much something is going to cost, Um, how much time it's going to take? Um, I guess if you realise you're never going to have enough money and you and there's always going to be less people than you, ideally would want to do the work and you and that you approach it by taking small bites at it and that you're there for the long haul. Once you've decided to create an archive, you're there. You've made the decision that you're there for the long haul. It's not a, you know, two years, [00:17:30] three years, five years. It is a longer 50 60 years, at least, and if it's if And I guess some of those are the Those are the questions you have to ask, too, when you're thinking about should we donate this material as well? And it might be that the decision in 50 years with your archive is that it will be there's no longer the people and resource to, um to continue it. Then it goes to a to a larger institution if they want it. But I guess planning is the key. [00:18:00] Um, you identify that you you can only do small bits at a time and be satisfied with that because often people get demoralised that they can't do everything. And again, these will be most likely volunteers, people giving of their time and around their, um, normal life, you know, their work and other things. So you're there for the long haul, and you're never gonna have enough money. But there are people again making friends. And there are people in institutions who can, um, assist you to, [00:18:30] you know, minimise the the work load. Depressing. And but those simple things of just starting to maybe even rehouse or just order the collection can be quite satisfying. Yeah, so not so demoralising. Yes. So do you think it's good to have, like, in your kind of policies, that the fact that it's going to be there for a long time, if not forever [00:19:00] but that you're actually working in kind of bite size chunks? So you do like, what kind of project by project type things? Um, I think you should have an overall strategy and that you plan it. And as Bronwyn said something like, um, putting your collection into folders or boxes or housing them. We you know, we call it phased housing or phased rehousing. You might decide that in your 10 boxes that box two and six are your most important. So in year one, you're going [00:19:30] to, um, put all of those ones into new folders, and you can work in over five years. You'll have all your 10 boxes rehoused so that you don't come in and think, Oh, I've done nothing with this collection and because what happens is that people think, Oh, no, I'm not doing the best for my collection, and it kind of sits there on the shelf, yelling at them or sits in under the bed, yelling at them so it's just, but your overall strategy is that you have better storage, and so you take bite sized, and [00:20:00] I prefer that approach and often the project approach. Sometimes you'll finish one project, and that's it. But if you have an overall plan, you can slowly work away small bits of it and then galvanise the, um, I guess the expertise of your volunteers. And it might be that those people are different for different. Uh, some people are better at fundraising and raising awareness. Some people prefer, you know, um, things like registering the collection and being quite methodical about, um, their record keeping [00:20:30] and others like practical things. So it is about there is always a role for everybody, and it's just organising that having a plan and having a plan. And that's again where your policy is that, um, some people, too, are overwhelmed by the the word policy. So it's just some simple strategies for keeping your, um, collection in a reasonable order, um, and ways to approach that over a long term to get in the best order possible [00:21:00] in the best condition possible. And you mentioned storage and we hadn't actually touched on you know, how do you store material when you're first starting out? What are the things that you think of in terms of storage space? What do you look for? Well, I'd go on the principle that it will always be bigger than you think you need. So So, um and and that's for two reasons. Uh, one. Often, the way you've currently got it stored isn't the most ideal. So you immediately will be doubling [00:21:30] it. You know, all your folded bits of, um, paper may need to be unfolded, and you've immediately doubled your, um, space requirements. And also often, when you become an archive, you then start to grow the collection. So you have to take make allowances for, you know, at least 10 years. It's something that the libraries, you know. But part of the reason we have had this, um, renovation is to accommodate growing collections. So expansion expense. So that's really important. Um, [00:22:00] yes. So we can talk about the types of spaces that you need. You mean in terms of, um, a dry environment and, um, well, for all collections, but particularly audio visual collections. I know we talk about, uh, ideal temperature and relative humidity. But, um, the stability of the the temperature and relative humidity is is more important. Yeah, so it's avoiding those fluctuations. [00:22:30] They're the most damaging to collections. And I suppose if you think about what we prefer, um, you know, as people, we prefer it when it's not too hot or too cold. Um, then usually that's OK for your collections as well, But, I mean, there's other things to think about to pre preferably um, you want it. You don't want your collections under the bed or in ceilings or in basements. You want them up off the floor and you want them [00:23:00] away from a wall. Preferably. You want any shelving to be on an internal wall rather than an external wall. But if you've got no choice, then you needed at least 30 centimetre 10 centimetres to 30 centimetres away from the wall. And the idea of that is that you get circulating air. The circulating air keeps your your your environmental conditions as stable as possible. And is that the reason why you wouldn't put it under a bed or in the basement or in the roof? So if you think [00:23:30] about it in the ceiling is, um, usually warm or damp and under the bed or in the garage or the least ideal places and and the damp. The thing about the damp is that you you raise your humidity, you've got more potential for mould. You've also got the warm, those warm places, insects like and so they'll come in the moisture. Also, if you if you've got a dusty environment that attracts moisture, you know, So you just want a clean space with, um, good circulating air and a stable temperature. So not to [00:24:00] be caught up in the notion that you need, um, expensive, um, air conditioning or dehumidifiers. The idea is to have a clean room that's hopefully well insulated that, um, doesn't get any external light, preferably and take it from there. And remembering, too that as a as a buffer to the environment, you can house your materials in many different layers. For instance, a cassette is inside a cassette box, maybe [00:24:30] in a in another box or on a shelf. Um, so that if you do have some small fluctuations, then they're protected by the layers that they have around them. Yes, so, yes, if you imagine that each container as buffers it from the external environment. And it's one of the reasons we always suggest to people that it's always better to have your collection some sort of box than a no box or no container at all. Because [00:25:00] if you imagine, then that the the box that you store it and doing all the work and not the original item. So, um, and ideally there's some. There's two schools of thought. Ideally, you want your say, um, a manuscript or a piece of paper. The the folder in direct contact with it is the one to be of the highest quality or conservation quality, and then you can move on with your folders and boxes, so that's one school of thought. But if you've got a huge collection, it might be that you start [00:25:30] just putting things in boxes. If that's all you can afford. And whatever the boxes, and so long as it's neatly put in the box and that box on a shelf and on a wall that would also, um, increase the life span of your archives 10 to 100 fold in terms of boxes. Is there any difference between having something in, say, some kind of plastic container as opposed to, say, a cardboard box. Uh, it depends What sort of plastic and what sort of cardboard. So, I mean, [00:26:00] I would avoid, um, anything that's PV C I would avoid. And, um, I wouldn't laminate anything because lamination Except, you know, if you don't wish to keep it, then you know your posters. You could I Although even then, it might be that in the future, those are important, Um, works. So I wouldn't laminate anything. Anything that's in, um, P avoid PV C plastics, and you'd want to be going for things. That, and you can get them now. Even places like warehouse stationery. [00:26:30] If they say polyethylene or polypropylene are, um uh, neutral. I guess you'd call it S. All plastics do degrade, but these are more and not to seal, um, things into, um, or they do still need to have a bit of, um, circulating air. You don't want to create a little micro environment where they can marinate away, um, boxes [00:27:00] and folders. You'd be looking at conservation quality, and they have names like acid free PH neutral. There's other products with free typically the boxes that are brown, anything that's brown is acidic, and that's because it's, um it's wood pulp paper and it's the craft paper and it's the last. It's a step before they bleach it to make it white. So But I guess if you approach storage, you're looking at good, better best. So you have good storage is putting things in [00:27:30] in their boxes and in folders, and this is all again about your planning. So it might be Year one. You've got all of these collections. You might put them in a box, and next year you might spend $100 to get some good quality folders. Year two. So it's a better storage, and then, you know, year 10, you've got your collection rehoused in the best possible manner. What would some of the things be to look out for if you had a collection stored over a number of years? And you maybe saw [00:28:00] mould or whatever other other kind of visual signs that you could say? Oh, that that thing was kind of degrading, or that plastics melting into this document. All this They call it the Agents of Deterioration, Agents of Deterioration There's two things you you're dealing with. Um, typically, um, contemporary archives, Um will be typically, um, wood pulp paper for the paper stuff. And inherently poor quality materials have [00:28:30] been used to make things. So I was Oh, this is where I like to say. Say inherent device. Yes. It's a term we use in conservation and probably other places, too suffering from inherent vice. Um, but, uh, so we're dealing with, um, papers that are inherently poor quality, so we'll degrade anyway. So So that's why we look at good storage, [00:29:00] Uh, good environmental conditions. So if we can, If we can control those things which we can have the control of, I guess it's about risk management. You can control those things. This bit of paper will last longer than if it's left under the bed and no folder at all. So those things under the bed will degrade, degrade or deteriorate much more quickly than those on a folder in a box on a shelf. So but yes, my, the the the problems [00:29:30] that most afflict collections in New Zealand are insects. We have a, um they love the sort of warm, muggy, temperate climate and um, mould mould you'll get you'll know quite quickly if you've got a mould. If you have a mouldy collection, you want to keep it completely separate from the rest of your collection because it will. It will generate a reaction that kicks off mould and all the rest of the collections the same, uh, with [00:30:00] insects. If you're getting in collections, best to look at them away from the rest of your collection to make sure they don't have insects before you put it in the the The worst thing that can happen is you put, uh, a collection that's come in into your main collection. There's silver fish, usually in them, and that's just a feast for them. The thing about insects is they're nocturnal. You don't know they're there. They wait till you've gone and then they have a party. So I mean, if you could, you could if [00:30:30] if it was possible, you could have an assessment area the way you assess things as they come in so that you're not automatically transferring it to your archive. So I mean, we talked about some of the things to think about with your own archive. It is those. As Bronwyn said. You want a space that has a table so that at the very least, so you can view collections away from your collections. In an ideal world, you'd have those in two separate areas, but at the very least, a table, just [00:31:00] a separation, a separation between where your collection is stored and where you look at collections. And so if new material came in, would you suggest kind of, um, looking at it, but actually also re boxing it so that you're not transferring support? Yes and, um, and talking to the whoever's, um giving you the collection where you're acquiring the collection and where it's been stored. Getting as much information about your collection and the collection you're acquiring is good practise anyway. But from [00:31:30] a preservation point of view, um, sort of avoiding, uh, and it might even be worthwhile keeping those collections out for a while. If they've come from somebody's house that's been damp, you might. You might not see that mould initially, so it might be worth just keeping it out. And And if you've got a room, if your archive has a more stable temperature once the the papers adjust to a stable nonfluctuating environment. Then you shouldn't have a mould problem if you have a mould outbreak in your, um, [00:32:00] archive, it suggests. And if it's if you haven't before, it suggests that there's been some change and you need to find out what that is. It could be something as simple as somebody um knocked over their bottle of water. And that water then has created, uh, you know, just in a small area has changed the environment there. And you might just have one, you know, box, it's got mould, or it's got damp or things like that. So you need to identify where the, um, where the problem has [00:32:30] occurred and then deal with that. Do you have any suggestions in terms of whether, for instance, say paper is laid flat or stood up? Are there are there better ways of storing things horizontal, vertical, ideally all paper flat? I mean, that can be, um, especially and unfolded So large things. Newspapers unfolded. Um, and it can be, though, if if you have, uh, a group of papers [00:33:00] in a folder and that folder can then be stood upright in a box so long as it's got other supporting folders to keep it upright, the same with books like sized books that are in good you know, good to stable condition can sit upright on a shelf, your larger heavy books or your more fragile ones you'd want, um, flat on the shelf and making sure that the shelf accommodates the whole is deep enough for your books and and for your more fragile ones, they would [00:33:30] have their own boxes. The other thing about, um, dealing with the material. You always want to, um, have some other support to carry the material. You don't want your, um, objects having to support their own weight. So when you're taking it off a shelf, it has to either be in a folder or a box, or even if it's a single piece of paper. Placing it on a um on a just a piece of cardboard to carry it somewhere is, is good practise, and that's then those works don't have to support [00:34:00] their own weight. You're looking after them in that way, so, and vertical storage is best for many sound recordings. Um, rather than stacking and flat, Um, that that takes well, make it ensures that there's no extra stress on the, um on the item. So things like C DS you would stack side by side rather than a kind of a vertical tower. Um, well, the vertical towers, they [00:34:30] have little they have. They do have support, I think. Well, the ones that they they're fine in a vertical tower. But, um, as long as they have support and not using each other to support, what about things where you've got, say, newspapers, pressing against each other on, you know, if they're laying flat, does it print through it? Can do, Um, although least likely what you tend to have, [00:35:00] though. You won't want a big for a couple of reasons. You don't want a whole stack of, say, newspapers. Um, stack one on top of the other one. That makes access. Um, difficult. It's always likely that the person wants the bottom newspaper, so that risks damage to your collection. Just retrieving it. Um, but, um, also the pressure from the top. You know, the pressure on the paper does does cause damage, So you probably want to look at um and we haven't talk. We've talked about shelves. We haven't talked about things like [00:35:30] plan drawers and cabinets or, you know, things that archivists that you'd use in your archive, other forms of storage. And also, you probably want to box the newspapers. I guess newspaper is the is the poorest quality paper too. So, yeah, in a small archive, you probably have all those materials together. Probably. But you might want to make some decisions about either, um, having them in a box. So [00:36:00] at least it keeps them slightly, um, separate from your other collections rather than contact with other things. What about other hazards? We talked about things like mould and insects, but are there other hazards you need to look out for? People. These people are the biggest. The the hazard, sometimes out of goodness. But, you know, from all of those things, the way in which we handle material, Um, the [00:36:30] security of the collection, Um, some of the things that we do to the collections mostly through, um, poor handling, accidental damage, and also deliberate, um, damage. And I guess you have to be aware of those things too. For, um, some archives could be targets for some people who would think that have been targets. So, you know, when we think about the security of your archive, there's those things you have to take seriously, too, you know, from protection. [00:37:00] Selecting a room that, um, in a building that, uh, is secure enough that you can lock up at night that is less prone to being vandalised. So it could be an internal room of a building or, um, you know, that's lockable. The windows are lockable, the doors are lockable, so they are things you have to be aware of. What about things like, say, water or pipes going through the room? Or, I mean, do you have to be aware of [00:37:30] that kind of funny that, um more often than not, libraries store their collections in the basement. But, um, all that has changed over the years, and and no being aware of that, um means that you keep them away from the pipes, the essential services and, um, yeah, so off the ground away from pipe, he said earlier, Um, not against an outside war, and and knowing [00:38:00] where the kitchen and bathroom is will tell you where your piping is. So you'd want to be, um, you know, locating your storage ideally, not below the kitchen or bathroom or next door or your shelving up against the wall. That's against where you know the next room is the kitchen or bathroom, where your main pipe would be in a kind of a domestic setting. So, um, and and to think about other things like, um, installing smoke detectors and and [00:38:30] part of the planning could be, too, that eventually this is a working archive. You have to You do have to address the issues of sprinklers and, um, and manual core points to the fire Service and a security system that's monitored those sorts of things. And and And you have to make that decision about in your planning process and what you what sort of archive you are and what sort of risk. Um, you know. So you you I guess you would look at the risks to your collection, and most [00:39:00] often it's dealing with people first, how they handle material, and that's good policy. Or having someone there. Whenever the people access material through to, um, how you access the building, who has access simple things like not having, you know, I've seen a lot of archives that have been destroyed by just simple domestic heaters kept on accidentally left on overnight and the collection's gone. So that's another, I guess. Another point, too, about, um, deciding to have an archive. [00:39:30] You are then centralising this collection in one space. So there's a certain responsibility to that. If you've centralised that you have a responsibility to ensure, because you could end up losing an entire collection an entire history of a particular group, because the collection has been centralised and you know, a fire and it's all gone. So those are some of the things without being scaremonger. You kind of need to think about, too. Are there advantages to having [00:40:00] a collection of multiple locations then? So, like you actually split up the collection? Well, that would have advantages and disadvantages. I think some of the disadvantage might be access and losing collections is if you have one access point and somebody has to retrieve material from different locations, and that suggests that there's a lot more handling of your collection as well. So, um yes. So there are advantages and [00:40:30] disadvantages, but all the key to having it in multiple collections is you have to have a a good intellectual access. You have to know what you have. You can't say. I think it's down the road. You have to know that it's there. You have to know where everything is in relation to the rest of the collection. So in archives I've been into, people are wearing white gloves handling stuff with with white gloves. Why is that? The oil from our hands is acidic, Um, and particularly [00:41:00] in, um and also its protection. Sometimes from some of those older collections, You don't know what they've been treated way. Um, and so the oils are acidic, and you transfer that material to the, um, paper or textiles or documents, But, um, you know, white gloves are good, but always it's an, I guess, an approach. So you want to have good, You want to have clean hands whenever you handle the material. Also for your own health, too. So washing your hands before you deal with the collection and immediately after, [00:41:30] just for your health and for the health of the, um of the objects, so hm hm. Um, and just the oils on the hands can, uh I mean, even if something like it does a record. An LP. If it's not inherently, um, if mould it doesn't find that attractive, it might. It will find the oils in your hands attractive and with sound recordings. You're very dependent on [00:42:00] machines or they're machine readable. They have to be machine readable, Um, so that anything that presents a barrier to, um, how you replay it, it's it's a problem. White gloves aren't always helpful, but there's as Vicky Anne said, um, clean hands are. Mm, when you are holding collections, say, of sound recordings like LP, S or cassettes. [00:42:30] Is it really important as well to have the machines to play that material back on? They are machine dependent, and it's equally important to to have maintained equipment to play them back on. Not just any equipment. Um, yes, which leads on to another whole topic of Do you transfer your collections? And how do you transfer your collections to another form like a A digital form? We'll [00:43:00] get there very shortly. Um, but, um, one thing that we haven't actually touched on that that you've, um, come back to a number of times is that whole um describing of collections describing stuff when somebody gives you some new objects, What are the kind of things that you would be asking a donor in terms of? You know what? What? Where did it come from? What kind of questions? That you'd want to know. The provenance of the item you want to know? Um, you'd want to know about the owner, the owner [00:43:30] who owns it. Were they always the owner or somebody else? The provenance or history of the item? In fact, as much information as you can, because it gives you the context. And, um, often you get one chance at it. So much to get as much information as possible. And, um, you know, good curators and archivists and research librarians know how also, how to ask the right questions to elicit the information. And they probably, um, have all the tricks that conservatives don't. [00:44:00] We're not very good with people. That's why we were good. But when something was created, why it was created just yes, yes, you're right. It's beautiful, really. Um, but it's also that they might have interesting stories to tell about why an object is in the state. It's in as well. And that can be important when you make decisions about what you do with it. So, um, this, um, work has has got dirt or [00:44:30] torn because it was used, you know, there was a meeting and somebody took an exception to something and ripped it. Well, then you wouldn't want to be repairing it because it's its own story. So those sorts of things are very important to know when something comes into your collection as well that that's a really good point to hang on to that, UM, you may only get one chance of finding out about that and that once it's in your collection, it's almost like an orphan, as in terms of, it doesn't have any other context around it. You have [00:45:00] to create that context, and it's a really important thing. And you know, very often large institutions have lonely objects because they don't know the provenance or they've got a donated 1955 and that's all the information, and so that makes it a lot harder. So those very often those objects or collections don't see much research, or they don't see any time exhibited because these people simply don't know about them. So they do become lonely, Um, [00:45:30] objects. Although sometimes they can find their again because, um, someone seen them or or it's a deliberate move on the part of the archive to say, Do you know you know who's in this picture, or can you enhance our record by letting us know? Yes. So I guess, um, the catalogue record or the registration is not a static thing that you keep working on it. And that's your biggest, um, [00:46:00] and keeping the archive. That's what you want to control over as your what you have in the collection and knowing about it, the more you know, the better your archive, I would suggest Do you know of any, uh, resources where somebody could go to actually work out what kind of questions I need to ask in terms of what the object is or what kind of, um, we're talking about metadata, aren't we like we're talking about kind of subject title date? Those kind of things are, are are is this somewhere somebody can go to kind of get those [00:46:30] fields again? I would be making friends, you know, and we're small enough as a, uh as, um, you know New Zealand small enough that we can find those people and and often people, you know, archives. New Zealand has a different approach to how it does things to, say, the Alexander Turnbull Library. So it's getting to know who the curators are and the archivists and the sorts of questions they would ask, as well as kind of maybe doing some courses that are offered by community archives on general principles. But [00:47:00] that's what I would be doing and looking at. And and in fact, even looking at the records that the Turnbull has on, it doesn't have all the information. But it gives certain, um, point as to how things are arranged and described. You think. And there are metadata standards such as Dublin Core, which, um, you can search online, um, to get some. There are many different metadata standards, but you might find something that suits you that has creation date, title [00:47:30] subject, um, fields that you can use. I think I've seen, um, on some sites on the Internet where, um yes, they've got things like DC dot title, and I'm assuming it's under dot title DC dot subject. That's right. That's how it's formulated or hers described. And I think also, if you have an active if you're an A, if you're an archive, is, say, a community, um archive is your organisation to have a, um a current [00:48:00] programme of collecting that information. For example, if you're taking photographs at a function or an event to make sure that you get all the names, which is essentially the method that of those people in there so that you have this approach for your things that aren't in your archive yet but will be so you've got all that information beforehand, so you're not retrospectively having to collect it. I think it's a good practise to and just in terms of Well, I'm not sure if we're talking about digital things here, but, um, [00:48:30] you want to know, uh, what software was used to create something and as much, uh, you want to get as much information about how something was created and what system it was on for its future preservation? Well, you've touched on digitization, and I'm wondering, what are the key elements for digitising, um, an archive. If somebody's got material, I'm thinking that maybe material [00:49:00] that's not already in digital form. So like old photographs or old sound recordings, why do you need to do it and how do you go about doing it? And I'd say 30 questions. I'd say also that, uh, for things like, um, photographs and that the digitised version there's no substitute for the original. I'm just saying that first because often people think that once they've got a digital coffee that the original doesn't need to be cared for. So that would be my first. [00:49:30] And I would agree. Um um, but more and more with, um, sound recordings, uh, we've moved away from trying to prolong the life of the carrier of the content and more to, um, and preserving the data that that that you've created when you've transferred the content. Um, it doesn't mean that you don't still like, look after the, um, original. But the paper will [00:50:00] last hundreds of years, 100 years. But sound recordings won't. So that's that's the problem. Um, we're facing, um, deterioration just through the materials and also the inability to replay them as the as we lose the players or as they become obsolete. And how do you go about transferring them well, you make friends, [00:50:30] we're all about making friends, making friends. But, um uh, you have to you have to be able to replay them and also, um, have a good system. It's a bit hard to say what a good system is, but it's all in the quality of that. Um, the interface, the analogue to the digital. The quality of that determines the quality of your finished product. Is it? Um, I guess some of the principles behind that is it Is it transferring [00:51:00] or trying to do that transfer at the highest possible resolution so that you're not actually losing anything? That's right. You are trying to extract the highest. The the best signal from your from your recording if it's a recording, is to make, um, the highest resolution, as you say, um, recording or photograph and a straight, straight unprocessed, um, transfer. [00:51:30] So you don't want to, um, a bit like the digitising photographs. You don't want to Photoshop, right? Because that's a personal aesthetic, and you don't want to throw through your sound recording. So you, you know, in a in a way that you think sounds better. You could subsequent you can with the um, with what you might call an access copy. But you're wanting a direct path, Um, from the the the, um [00:52:00] the original from the original to the to the copy because that that might provide it might provide. It might be a source of information, too, that you you're not necessarily aware of Of other interesting things a bit like the the recording. So and the same with the photographs. There might be information in there that we don't we don't necessarily see. But somebody else might see, So that's really important. So something like, um the the the type of files that you would save [00:52:30] things as I'm thinking, obviously you don't want to do kind of Photoshop on an image. But then I'm also thinking you may not want to do like saving the image as a JP G, which is a a kind of a lossy format or saving music as an MP3 because you're actually reducing that information. You're saving file size, but you are, and you never, um and you want to get as much information as possible because you're safeguarding its future. So you do want, um um a well uncompressed [00:53:00] or or or not, Data reduced, um, file. So for photography, you'd be looking at the tiff or a raw with some software. However, a lot of the your you might be receiving files that are only in J peg or are not in the highest resolution, but you still have to retain them. The other thing works that you've got Sometimes, um, well, I know in [00:53:30] our library situation, sometimes people have transferred something from an MP3 to a a wave file. But that doesn't mean that it's any better quality. I mean, you want to make create wave files, um, as your preservation file. But if it's come from an MP3 to a wave file, then it's not going to improve the quality. So you can't increase the quality by going from an MP3 to a wave. That's correct. You know, you can't similarly [00:54:00] for photographs, so you can't, um, AJ Peg is never going to be any better saved as a It's always going to be AJ peg. You've already lost either ends of the of the colour spectrum, for example, so is digitization resource hungry? Does it take a lot of time and a lot of people power It takes equipment, people power and time. And so and it doesn't end there because [00:54:30] then you have to safeguard its future. And it has to be a sustainable system that you you set off on. It's a bit like setting up an archive in the first place. It's not just done after a week, you know, it's you have to take responsibility for a day to day and at least plan for its future. Why is that? Why can't I just, you know, put my cassette into a hard drive and just leave it there? [00:55:00] Um, you want to be able to see that it plays after, you know, after a year you want to see if you can play it. And also, you may want to change to another format or another type of hard drive and say, 23 or maybe five years time. So it's an ongoing, um, cycle. Yes, un. Unlike paper that I'd much rather deal with than anything digital, is that sometimes you can see that paper [00:55:30] is deteriorating or you can see, but often with the digital things, you can't see that there's a problem, and so you have a problem of um, equipment becoming obsolete that some zero or one. And the digital file is corrupted. And so you don't know unless you periodically check that these things are still able to operate and just change in systems, too. How would you check what are what are some of the ways to actually check the integrity of files? Um, [00:56:00] I'm just thinking, in the transfer of of files, there are software programmes that can check that you've moved one to another format. Um, uh, a check sum or a fixity check. Um, or just simply by saying this file is this size, Um, and I'm moving it to this place, and it's always better to copy and paste than it is to drag and drop. And, um um because you can lose things or depending [00:56:30] on the software you use. Um, but just by counting well, not literally counting the bytes, but comparing the bytes and to make sure you've made it correct, Um, copy. So again, that's all part of your planning and your planning in your archives that you'll have some sort of, I guess audit for better words to check spot to audit your collection, which you do with your analogue or paper based collections as well. If you were doing an ongoing [00:57:00] migration, how many? What was what would be the time frame that you would migrate? A bit of data? Um, well, I was thinking you should check it, maybe every year to check that you can still play it, um, as Vicky and said, It's very hard. You can't see what's happening. Um, it's also a big investment to to once once your archive gets quite large, because if you're digitising at a higher resolution, you're creating higher files and you're needing more [00:57:30] storage. And so it's quite an undertaking. I mean, I know I've heard of advice being given every five years, but I just worry a little about how fast things change. Not that you you move with every change, but maybe a bit less than every five years, you you're thinking of moving or migrating your your data. Um, another way is or they say, in the [00:58:00] in the industry, that one copy is no copy. Um, and that you should always back up, back up, back up to use a couple of cliches, um, so that if you got even if you've got it on another form, like a DVD or a CD, which we only we don't consider long term storage. Um, medium media. But but those spreading around the copies, um, may may ensure that you have a copy at the end. [00:58:30] I guess also having all those copies in one place, one physical location is not such a good move. I mean, it's a little bit the opposite of what we were talking about before, but to have it in another geographical location and even a lot of the details about your archive. I'm not sure if we're going to talk about, um, just setting up your your file structure now, or, um, just to make [00:59:00] sure that, um, you've made a note of, um, how you've set your your archive up and not just, or even a screenshot of what you've what you've done and keep that documentation somewhere else as well. File structure and kind of naming conventions. Do you have any tips for things that you know won't Well, that will make sense in 100 years time. Um, well, I have heard it said that you should organise your files [00:59:30] as if an alien was to come to your computer and, you know, so that they would then know how you had organised your work. Um, so, um um, just just creating, um, a directory and file structure and files that, um can be that a human readable that you get a lot of information from the naming of a file [01:00:00] just through the title and including a date that can be good to include a date. And, uh, it can be a problem to use, um, certain characters, um, in your file naming such as brackets and asterisks, um, dashes. It's it's easier. Or it's better to use something like an underscore, um, to to cause this or or or nothing at all, you know, to, um, make the separation to make it intelligible. [01:00:30] I'm guessing one of the issues with digitalization is that when you've got physical objects, you've got, say, like a cassette and a cassette box that might have a label. So you've got all that written information. But when you're in the digital environment, you've just got a file name, very, maybe up to 32 characters. And so how do you capture all that other information around that cassette. Um well, [01:01:00] uh, some programmes allow you to put some of that information within the the header of the file within the like to tag the file itself with with written information in certain fields. But you can also just documented in in words, you know, document what you've got and, um, separately from the file. So you can do that. You can do both of those things. One of the things [01:01:30] that strikes me is that if this is, um, not just a volunteer organisation, but even individuals where you start off with a number of objects and you kind of identify them with a number. But then, as years go by, all numbering systems change and I DS change. Do you have any tips for creating kind of unique identifying? I DS for objects and making it easy for people to find in the future. Well, I guess you know, for analogue for paper objects, [01:02:00] you would start with your your simple index or, um, list. And you you could sign a The archivist would be probably better to answer this. But each each series or groups of things have a unique number, and you do have to stick to that. And that's one of the key things in your, um, policy that you do have a A system that's consistent and otherwise. If you then suddenly change numbering systems, then you've you've probably lost control of your of your archive. But, [01:02:30] um, I've dealt with groups with just small collections, a finite collection of four or five boxes. So we've given each box it's a box name, and then it's each group of items and then has a series name. And then they've because sometimes you can't. Collections are too big. You can't give every single thing a number That would be, I guess, possibly ideal but series and file folders and boxes so that you at least have some list. And again, it's about planning. So in year one, we did. [01:03:00] We labelled all the boxes, so our 45 boxes were all then we knew what was in it generally. Then the the next year, it was all the files, and this is as as we house it. So everything got a folder and the folder number and then and onwards and onwards. So it's just I get, and usually the people who want to do that work usually have a sort of a methodical mind, and you probably need to get advice on how to then approach it So you can come to the Turnbull or to community archives, and they probably give [01:03:30] a steer on how you do that. Sort of numbering for digital. It's whole holiday or even for analogue. Um, well, sound recordings you can future proof your your your numbering system by adding zeros like you don't just start to call the first cassette one. You may call it whatever it is the MS C 00001 so that you build in a future for [01:04:00] that series. So when you're digitising those cassettes, say that number sequence you would you would put that into the file that you could do that. Then you'll know exactly what it's been transferred from, and you could put something else like, um, preservation copy or PC preservation. Copy? Um, access Copy. AC. So what does preservation copy mean? What? What is that? [01:04:30] A preservation copy is your highest resolution file that you've created from your analogue object. And and that's, um, the one you look after Well, as well as you would the original item. Um, for it, it'll be quite a large file if you've created it at a large A high resolution. And, um, but any any sort of access copy after there could be a much lower [01:05:00] resolution. Um, as long as it doesn't get in the way of listening to the recording. So the access copy would be used by, uh, what research is coming into your archive to and to. Or if you wanted to put things online, what about the idea of with digital files now that you can have multiple copies of the same files? So you 100 originals. Do you have any thoughts on, um, is that a good bad thing? [01:05:30] It's a good thing and that you can reach a wider, you know, distribution. But you want to know what you've got in terms of an archive, and you want to have that kind of version control. So you want to assign that particular file and not have a whole lot of them because you don't know if you if they are really exact copies, Um, and file integrity is important. So, um, I think it's best to [01:06:00] keep those separate so thinking of, say, like a smallish archive of a variety of things. So you've got kind of digital objects. You've got kind of photographs paper, I'm wondering, can we go through the list of different types of things that people collect and maybe see if there are any tips for storage and preserving those things? So things like, um, textiles again in your space? Um, usually you'll find, um, textiles [01:06:30] and three dimensional objects are quite large. Um, and they're all they have unusual shapes and not like paper that you can store typically flat. So I guess the key thing for its storage is that it has to have some sort of support. So textiles, but like paper, you don't want them folded where they get, um, crushed or creases. And you can do simple things like making little tissue rolls to keep them supported, and so that they don't form creases or, um, little sausages made [01:07:00] of calico and, um, Ron, um, and ideally, in a larger because the thing with textiles and 3D objects is that they can get crushed quite easily, so you'd want them in another box that can be carried around and so that they don't get crushed or other sort of injuries. Um, and you want to have also we talked about having a table to view things you'd want your table big enough. But you might also want other things with that, like cushions for large books, you might want cushions to support, [01:07:30] uh, large books. So when you're turning the pages of those books, you're not damaging the spine. You might also want that for some of your more fragile textiles. You might want small weights for holding down, uh, rolled objects or textiles or paper. Um, because they have a memory. They have a memory paper, has a memory, and it likes to If it's been rolled for a long time, it likes to stay rolled, um, and again having if you if people [01:08:00] are accessing it, Do you want for photographs to talked about clean hands, but also those policies about when people access materials. I would suggest that if you're the person who runs the archives, you retrieve the material for the people. For whoever is wanting to access it, you give a quick, um, talk about why you know we want you to use, um what? We want you to wash your hands or use, um, cotton gloves. We only want pencils used in here and other policy decisions about things. Like, Can you take a photograph? You know, with digital cameras and things people [01:08:30] say, Can we photograph it? You have to make a call on whether you allow that. Um, and you might make a decision that some things are too fragile to be viewed or only, um, accessed with you there the whole time, Those sorts of things. But I guess if you approach, um, the storage and handling you never want to. You never want to take off things off the shelf and be wrestling through them to find the stuff and then giving it to people. You want to take [01:09:00] the box, put it on a table, open the box, take it out of its bottle all on a table or on a surface because you know it's it's easy to drop things or if things are too heavy. You want more than one person, um, to be maybe moving the stuff with you and simple things about where you store things best to have your heaviest things, possibly on mid shelving and your lighter things on your top shelving. So those would be the kind of key things for an archive from from my point of view. [01:09:30] Um, just just thinking of emails. Um, because, um, email software, um, email programmes come and go. Mostly go. Um, it's best to save your emails away from the the software programme itself. So in a in some kind of open source, uh, format. Um, but the same principles of the the [01:10:00] physical items the C DS and the cassettes and records LP S, as as Vicky has described, um, when you're moving them from, make sure you're moving them from a stable area to a another clear area so that when you're taking them out of their covers, their supporters and just those things about removing a CD not using the, uh, not getting your fingers on the on the CD itself, But, um, from [01:10:30] the out touching everything on the outer edges. Um, just thinking about those CD uh, various CD shelving arrangements. Some of them may even require you to take your C DS out of boxes. That's not advisable. And even some of the slim line cases could just just be too flexible. And it's it's better to have something that where the, um the case itself isn't pressing down on the on the CD. [01:11:00] So you have to look at your storage in terms of that, um, make sure that they've got support. Yeah, when you're out in the community, do you find that people are knowledgeable about how quickly things degrade? I know that I was quite shocked. Well, I think a lot of people were quite shocked with things like C DS where originally when they came out, it was like, Oh, these are gonna be for a lifetime And then they're now only [01:11:30] five years of that in terms of life span, Do you Do you find that you have to kind of educate people in terms of the life span of particular objects within the collections? Well, just as we've had to educate ourselves because I think when we were transferring items in the analogue day, well, just when digital came in, it was, um, CD that you were transferring to That was going to be, you know, an archival medium. But, [01:12:00] um, or some people transferred some archives transferred to debt, but um, we've had to educate ourselves about that. And yes, Um, yes, that is what we have to do for and probably less. So people know anecdotally that they, um you know what happens to their papers and books. They leave a newspaper out, it turns yellow and the sun, so people know about that, and then it's just [01:12:30] developing an approach to caring for it. That's the key. And and again, most people know the the kind of they're in the ballpark of knowing how to look after things. People generally know that if they put things in a box that that will be better for it than directly under the bed. So it is about just developing an approach to having an overall plan. I think so often, um, conservatives. After we've given workshops, people are quite depressed. We're all doom and gloom. But in fact, [01:13:00] um, if they stop and think that they actually already know a lot of this stuff. So it's just channelling that energy into a methodical approach, I guess, to caring for their things. But it's interesting, because when you mentioned I don't store things in the basement on the roof or, um under the bed. I mean, I think probably most people would probably. That's where you store stuff and that's and it's space considerations. And I've got things stored in my wardrobe because, you [01:13:30] know, I don't want ugly archives boxes on display in my house, but, um, so there's those things, But once you become an archive, then you take on a responsibility in a in a different in a different way. So, um, and it's, um, not insurmountable, even though we might suggest otherwise in the way we're describing it. But, um, yeah, so and it's more I think it really is important to take those small steps. Otherwise, it is very often overwhelming. And you stop. [01:14:00] And that would be, um, said one of the things we haven't talked about is the actual access of material. So you're collecting this material? Um, do you have any tips for how people access it? You know, in terms of either restrictions or use, or how do you go about that? Um, I would suggest in terms of physical access, I would suggest that that's always done with the person who's the archivist or whoever, Um, that there's always [01:14:30] somebody there when the person accesses the collection. There's all sorts of other things, I guess, about how, what, how the material is going to be used if it's going to be used by researchers and those are whole other questions. Um uh, a curator or an archivist would be better to answer. But in terms of physical access, I would suggest that sort of almost, um, reference or close collection so that there's always somebody there when that person is using the material, not sitting right beside them. But but being there for the [01:15:00] security of the collection would be my, um, biggest thing of the conservator and and if you can, all of the sound recordings, Uh, if you could try and access the copy only to preserve the original and and I guess similarly, if you've got very fragile paper or you know, paper records, it might be better if you are able to provide a copy to that person and, [01:15:30] um, rather than the original, although then again, you might. That person might want to see the original for whatever reason, and that might provide more, um, information to them. So I guess thinking about the for us as conservatives. It's thinking about the object first when accessing it. Hm? Yes, that's right. Um, and I know that if you're creating a preservation copy a digital copy, then it's relatively easy to produce [01:16:00] an access copy from there. But if you think of preserving the, um, original, then you're getting the access for free. Well, you know what I mean. You you get the access. Rather, you know easily once you've invested the time and effort into creating that first copy. And then I guess there's all those other things about restricted restricted collections and gaining permissions before people can use certain parts of the collection. And again, that comes right back to the beginning about your policies and why [01:16:30] you exist and what your purpose is and what sort of objects and collection you have So before I guess researchers or people come to use your collection. You have already identified what the potential issues are and how you, as an archive, will deal with those. Yes, it can be difficult. I think if if you've got the the archives got the relationship with the donor directly. But if it's passed through several hands, then it's hard to know, [01:17:00] But I agree it's in the policy and you'll know for each item or collection if there were any particular restrictions placed while the person was alive or for various reasons, it's quite individual.

IRN: 574
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/jack_perkins.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003986
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089280
TITLE: Jack Perkins
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Jack Perkins
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; Jack Perkins; Radio New Zealand; Spectrum (radio programme); documentary; media; oral history; radio; straight
DATE: 26 July 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: While this podcast doesn't come from a queer perspective, it offers a valuable insight into location recording and interviewing from a veteran broadcaster.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. I'm Jack Perkins, and I've worked for 50 years over 50 years for Radio New Zealand. 40 of those in the field of documentary radio documentary. Um, I. I co founded Spectrum in 1972 Spectrum is very much an out and about, um, capturing the moment, Uh, social history, human interest, um, form of radio. It's not [00:00:30] usually about static interviews, um, of the type we're doing now, but rather cap capturing life and activity on the on the wing. Uh, as it were as real people in their work and activities, enjoying themselves, getting angry, um, despair, uh, their prejudices their, um uh, their biases, Um, in other words, trying to trying to capture [00:01:00] life and give it vicariously to a listener in the living room or the car or the kitchen. When that started out in the early seventies, was there any other kind of radio doing a similar thing? Uh, spasmodically. But but it's really the start of spectrum was very much geared to the advances of portable tape recorders before 1972. Or you could say the fifties sixties [00:01:30] the, um um, radio was very studio bound and studio. The problem with the studio bound is that it gives, you know, lovely quality. And, um, you've got a lovely acoustic and there's a technician controlling things beautifully, but it's also a touch sterile. And it tended to attract the kind of radio where professionals would give you, you know, his story and would talk about, [00:02:00] um, you know, the the the land wars or something like that, or an educationist would give his opinions. In other words, it kept to the point where real ordinary people, um, who didn't have a professional background they tended to be excluded. And that was the whole, um, revolution of the portable tape recorder that allowed producers to get out in the real world in all the nooks [00:02:30] and crannies of New Zealand and find people with real stories. Um, who, up till then, the the The first thing people used to say in those days is, Oh, you know, I've got I can't tell you anything. You know, I'm not. I'm not being a general, a legislator or a, uh, what have I got to say, You know, and this person you would discover lived on the wrong side of a of a river for 60 years. Uh, a woman perhaps had six kids on the, um, [00:03:00] you know, the kitchen table, kinds of stories, and yet they they didn't think they were important. So it it, um it brought a new kind of sound. It altered the sound of radio, the portable tape recorder, and Owen and myself were on hand. And it's pure, um, chance we were on hand at the right time to cash in on this and to mine this rich [00:03:30] seam of human experience in New Zealand, which just hadn't been touched before. Of course, that included the the the War years, 1st and 2nd, even back to the Boer War. The, um, the Depression. Um, all those events were great melting pots of human experience and deserved to be preserved at that time. Was there resistance from the kind of radio establishment to open it up to voices [00:04:00] of Joe public Initially, a little bit, perhaps a little bit of suspicion that that, you know, somebody might might say a swear word which was still frowned upon a little bit, but that really dissipated quite quickly. Once the popularity and power of this new form of, uh out and about radio was Well, it spoke for itself, and it just couldn't be denied. So, you know, there was, [00:04:30] um No, it took off and we didn't look back. Really? So what was the kind of initial thought behind Spectrum? You know what? What? How How how was it pitched? Well, Owen was really the founder of it, more so than me. I was I was a sorcerer's apprentice. Um, and, uh, hop had a as we call him, Hop, uh, had a technical background, and he, at an early stage, saw the potential [00:05:00] of the portable tape recorder, the potential of this new technology, and and, um uh, So it really went from there, and And we were We were just after the kinds of stories of ordinary people doing extraordinary things. Um, ordinary people doing ordinary things, for that matter. I mean, there's a lot of interest in the ordinary if it's talked about and, uh, you know, brought out in the in the right way. [00:05:30] So that that was it. We weren't looking for politicians and statesmen and, uh, generals and all those kind of people. We were just looking for ordinary people with bloody good stories. to tell. So how did you find those people? Well, initially, Um, you know, um uh, by murder and, uh, uh, wrenching people's arms off And, uh, you know, flogging stories from wherever we could. In other words, there was no set way. But [00:06:00] we quickly gained a reputation, and people started to feed us with once they realised that this kind of thing was underway. And that's what radio, um uh was doing then, you know, there was no shortage. We we had a constant feed of, um of stories. And of course, you'd pick up things from newspapers and books and things like that. You're saying, portable recorders. Can you describe the kind of gear that you were using at the time? Because for a lot of people, [00:06:30] a portable recorder nowadays as a as a small digital device. Yes, yes. Um, the gear we used in those days, um, was the Well, the there were. There were various, uh, small, small recording. Well, smallish recording devices, but the the West German UUE Ah, I think you are. Yeah, or it might have had an H in it. Anyway. Um uh, it took [00:07:00] five. I think it was four or five D cell batteries. Um, it would only play a 15 inch spool type. So it was very, you know, you had to be on the QV all the time that your tape was running out. You had to stop putting a new tape on. Your batteries was running down and the damn things weighed about £50. So if you were slogging up a mountain, you know, in fact, in those days you had to be fit to, uh, to do [00:07:30] the real out and about, you know, into the bush, um, down the river kind of stuff because you were carrying several, um, several sets of batteries. A whole load of five inch tapes, which and, you know, were heavy. Uh, the gear itself, which was, uh, the size of a shoe box. Uh, roughly a rather large shoe box. Um, so you know, you you you had to cut all this round and, um, getting [00:08:00] into isolated places. It was a bit of a slog. A five inch tape. How how much recording would that have? Could have now? So you were lucky 12 minutes safely. If we could of hour, 12 minutes or so, you'd see it coming to an end, you know? But, um, you you had to stop and change tape, and that was, well, people accepted it. But, I mean, somebody would be just getting into the flow and, um, and bang, [00:08:30] you know, hang on. I've got to change tapes. I mean, the the modern device that we use in RNZ now, the sound device. If anyone had told me in those days that this is what I would be using 50 odd years later, I would have, um, suggested they, uh, they they don a straitjacket. You know, I mean, it was just unbelievable what modern machines are like. And, of course, the microphones were, um they weren't bad. They [00:09:00] they were. They were, but they were studio microphones, and you had taking them outside. They were very wind sensitive. Um, and, uh, the little valia, um, mic that we used used to see it on television around someone's neck. We used stayed on the field because it was small and obtrusive. And it also had a nice travel tip up. So you could hear the birdies tweeting quite nicely, you know? And this was AM radio, you know, we had frequency cut off [00:09:30] and the highs. So we would use the little Laval mics too. But, I mean, compared with the mics nowadays, um, you know, the modern mics, the SM 61 that I use all the time is a superb mic. Um, it's, um And we also used to use, um, slightly directional mics, um, cardioid to try and minimise background noise. And the problem is that the low frequencies of background noise, [00:10:00] um, go around corners and the high frequencies miss the mic. So you're getting a low rumble on your street noise or whatever other noise. In other words, it distorts the reality of the sound that you're really hearing in the field and gives it a base rumble. So that was just something we had to put up with. And, um, or the you know, the wind rain, Uh, especially wind wind, I can [00:10:30] remember. Oh, it must be about 15 years ago when we got the SM series of mics, the the series. I went out one very windy day in Wellington the first time I'd ever heard real wind on a on a recording. You know, the way it sounds in the trees the rush of of, uh because in the old days, when you went out in the wind, all you get would be bass blackout. It would just rush across [00:11:00] the mic and move the ribbon or whatever it was. To the extent that you you'd go, you'd go, and that's all you get. You'd hear nothing of the reality of the sound in the trees or in the wires or whatever. So was that something you were trying to do in the early days to capture that kind of reality of what was happening out in the in the field? Well, yes, well, I mean, what we wanted was, well, we did a lot of of sit down and talk at that stage, um, [00:11:30] to people who had had, you know, the experiences that were quite extraordinary. Uh, we don't do that so much now, we, uh, for various reasons which are concerned with the way RNZ itself has developed where the sit down and talk with many of those programmes now. And Kim Hill and, um uh, the afternoons and that kind of thing. So spectrum now differentiates itself by having a feeling of place, Uh, of something [00:12:00] that that's outside. Nothing to do with the studio. But back in those days, we were about the only programme doing the, um, the kind of oral history type stuff and doing it consistently every week. So we didn't mind sitting down and talking to an old soldier or whatever. Um, but we also were very concerned to get into the the real nitty gritty of of of life. [00:12:30] You know, we do things like, um, uh, I've I've I went through a swamp in, um, just north of with the, um with the with the SI S. Uh, contingent. They were going through a test of destruction, and so was I. Except I wasn't carrying the weight. They were, um but I was certainly buggered at the end of it. They were more buggered. But, I mean, the what? We've what when you get close to that kind of thing and see people, [00:13:00] young men and extremists in the middle of the night and the swamp up to your waist, I mean, that's the kind of radio we we we were looking to do. That's an extreme example, mind you. But you know, if if it was a programme about a parking warden. Then you wouldn't sit down in an office and talk to the parking warden. You'd get out with him on the beat, you'd follow him around and you'd get irate, um, motorists coming up to him and say [00:13:30] what the bloody hell you've given me a ticket for and you get the exchange. You know, that's the reality now, no amount of talking about it. It can be the same as you capturing that exchange. You know, the frustration and annoyance and the the parking warden trying to be a diplomatic. So you know that that's the kind of thing that we were looking for. It's very much, Um, that kind of recording is very much in the moment. [00:14:00] So I'm thinking like I mean, if the soldiers talking about a war experience, they're reflecting back. But this parking warden is actually happening in the moment. You don't know what's going to happen, which must be really exciting. It must have a different energy. Oh, yes, it does. And of course, what's important is the listener. So the listener in his or her living room kitchen car, they're vicariously sharing that tension that you know, they're [00:14:30] on the edge, and they know that this is they don't know how it's gonna turn out either, you know, I mean, that's always true when you're hearing an account on radio. But when you when you're actually there and, um, there there's a different quality to it rather than just somebody real, you know, talking about the, um, whatever the events are in the in the past, one is present tense as you as you were, and radio [00:15:00] is about presence present tense. And the more present tense you can have in radio. Um, the stronger it is, um, it seem it communicates far better. For example, if I'm doing a documentary about the Depression, I would and I was using sound effects of the riots in Auckland in 1931. I think it was, um then I would use my script would be in the present tense. I would be saying, [00:15:30] you know, the the shop window here is is broken, not was broke, was smashed, was shattered, Is is shattered. The man lying in the gutter has a has a scalp wound of, you know. So I'm allowing the sound effects and my script to bring something very vivid through in the present tense rather than putting it in the past, even though the listener cerebrally [00:16:00] knows that it's 80 years ago or whatever. It's that presence and the same. I mean, it's the same when you watch television. When you watch a a drama about the Victorian era, it's there, it's present, it's right in front of you. And it's that same thing we want to capture in radio as much as possible. I'm not saying it's always possible to do that. You can't always do that in the news or something like that, and not always in every documentary you would do [00:16:30] but where the opportunity offers. And and that's really the connection with the portable tape recorder. That's that's what you're trying to capture when you're out in the field in those early days. How much recording would you do to make a half hour programme? Well, it varied enormously. Um, sometimes you have to. For example, we would we would do portraits of a little township like black ball. I remember doing years [00:17:00] ago. Well, you know, you're trudging around black ball, finding the the characters and the people who've got a good story. The people who who wear their history on their sleeve as it were and and can recreate it. They're the people you're looking for. Well, you know, you might go down a few blind alleys before you get that, so you might end up with quite a few hours of material, but you know damn well you're not gonna use a lot of it. So that would be at one end [00:17:30] of the, um, you know the scale. So for a half hour programme, you might, you know, have have recorded three or four hours. Um, at the other end of the scale is where you find a person. I can remember so many of them who who were such good recurs, who could relive and I use that word relive, deliberately relive their experiences. Not [00:18:00] just remember things, relive things. And that's a talent. I mean, you you as an interviewer. It's your job to support and and bring that out. But a person like that, they can give you a half an hour programme almost in in 1 to 1. You know, you can talk to them for half an hour. You've just about got a programme and unedited and and And I've met several people like that, you know, they're quite remarkable Raconteurs [00:18:30] and they really require a minimal of guidance or, you know, probing and questioning. It's just how it comes and it's all there. But I mean, you're very lucky to find that kind of person, but they do exist. So there there's the range, I mean, anywhere in from 1 to 1 to 4 hours for half an hour. One of the things I really admire about you is that you have a very, uh, everyman approach and that you can talk to such a wide [00:19:00] group of people and get them to talk back to you. And I'm wondering, Do you have any tips for people that don't naturally have that kind of every man? Well, it's partly a kind of philosophy if if I know that's a highfalutin word. But I and Owen, or was it rubbed off on to me from Owen? The idea that you're talking to someone who's had a particular experience of the world, [00:19:30] they are giving you something. It is a gift. It's not you. I it's not you going along and you know um, kind of catching a politician by the throat and ringing out of them some something they don't want to tell you. This is the kind of work I've been. And now I'm not saying that that hardline interview that requires a whole other tech form of technique. But my approach is that I have an informant [00:20:00] who deserves respect, um, and integrity and that you have to genuinely feel that it it it It's not something you can just, you know, wear on your sleeve and pretend I. I don't think perhaps, if you're a very good actor, you could. But basically everyone I goes to I have. You know, I go to them for a reason that they have something to give and that give is very important. [00:20:30] And there are various little techniques, such as I always say to people, It's, you know, I. I never use the word interview. I always say, I want to have a chat about this, and I and I want it to be a conversation. No, of course, what happens is that an interview is not a conversation, in fact, but it should sound conversational. So your technique is that you want them to think [00:21:00] in terms of conversation, just like you would be chatting across a dinner table. Um, so that's the kind of mood you're, uh you're you're wanting to evoke in them, but really, they have to sense that you're interested. You really are interested. And they sense that not just in your words, you know, expressing interest, but in your face, they can see it in the in your eyes and the the way that you as they're talking, [00:21:30] the way that your face facial expression, your eyes, your hand gestures, everything, um, probably just be one hand gesture because I'll be holding the mic with the other. And you don't start gesturing with the mic hand. But, um, all those things add to add together, um, to get to make a person feel that what they have to give is worthwhile. And we had quite a a job breaking that down, especially with the women in [00:22:00] the seventies. Women, um especially rural women, uneducated. Very often they would say, Oh, no, my old man, he's He's been the farmer. He's done all the work here. I I've just, you know, got the dinner dinner ready, kind of thing. In fact, she'd had six kids and she'd put up with isolation and storms and rivers flooding and, you know, slogging into town, you know? But that was unimportant, you see, So [00:22:30] sometimes you had to really talk to them to convince them once they they were convinced that their life was of interest, not just to you, but to thousands of townies and country people. And but, you know, whatever. And that they would be able to talk directly, 1 to 1. With this vast range of people, you know, their eyes are light up, And, um, and it it would give another dimension to their sometimes slightly [00:23:00] boring lives. And they would, you know, really enter into it. And, uh and of course, that's what you want. And that's where that term reliving comes in. You can always sense when somebody's reliving and not just retelling. There's a there's a quality about it. Um, it's they're almost looking inwards, you know, Um and that's you know what? We That's what we're looking for. [00:23:30] And of course, you know the various techniques of questioning and you know you're not you're not asking those formal kinds of questions Once you get a rapport going between the two of you, you know you'll you'll nudge them kind of in the ribs a little bit and you'll you'll smile and say, Oh, come on, You didn't really think that, did you? Or you or you'll say, Well, I, I can barely imagine that. Just just expand on it. You know? [00:24:00] What were you thinking at the time? What were you seeing at the time? Um, you know, um, all those kinds of these are not the normal questions. You hear? Um, in the average interview with a with A you know, an official where you're just looking for information, you're looking for far something far more than just information you don't want the raw facts of, um you know how they got across the [00:24:30] river when it was in full flood? You know, you're wanting some of those personal little details of how scared they were, how exciting it was, Um, and just what it was like to look down into the vortex or whatever. You know, all that, Um, and that's all part of this reliving, reliving thing. And of course, once a person is going, um, it used to. That's why the 15 inch tape used to be a problem. Because you had to say, Hang on. You know, stop there. [00:25:00] Just hold that. You know, here they are in the boat, nearly swamped, and you're changing the tape. Then you have to make sure you back up and, you know, just let's go back a bit and just and then you move into it again, you get you get up to speed again. So all that kind of thing. So how long did it take you to change a tape on in those kind of situations? Not very long. No. You'd whip it off and whip it on pretty quickly, but it was just, you know, and sometimes they keep talking anyway, [00:25:30] and you wouldn't mind That keeps, keeps them on, keeps the the engine running, you know? So, um, but of course, those kinds of problems now with flash cards, you know, where you've got a six hours of, uh, high quality stereo, um, and a nine hour battery. It's It's almost made recording. Too easy taking the skill out of it, taking the chance out of it. But, um, [00:26:00] I guess when you're on location and you're actually at that river and they're talking about something that may have happened 30 40 years ago. Just actually be. The fact you're at the river gives you so much more kind of stimulus in terms of, you know, visual stimulation sound. Yes, I mean, there there are two different things. It's a sit down talk interview, which is what I've been describing now, uh, where they are. They are in their mind's eye reliving, and there's the other [00:26:30] kind of interview where you would take them. Which is not always possible, of course, where you would take somebody to a location and the whole stimulus of the the place that the place that's relevant with memories, Um, and they're seeing it and you might be hearing it, you know, rushing past in the background. So there's there's the sound effect, but it's not the sound effect that's it's the effect on them. Um, that's important. [00:27:00] It's the stimulus that that place evokes. And then and it'll show in their voice and, um, and of course, they will then be able to relate change, which is quite interesting. Very often, you know, they'll say, Oh well, the jetty is there now, but that that all wins in the in the flood in 1945 you know, And, uh, it used to be a little rickety jetty, and, uh, there used to be a couple of rowboats there. Look at it. Now you've got a a great, um, you know, million [00:27:30] dollar yacht there or something. You know, it's that so you'll see you. You get the opportunity to, uh, evoke the changes that have occurred in in a in a place, perhaps not always, but essentially, it's that quality that comes into a person's voice when you know they're being affected. There's something being induced in them, Uh, by a by a place by she. You know, the sheer, [00:28:00] the qualities of it. You know it when you hear it. Do you have any tips for getting an interviewee or an informant to paint a picture of a particular place? Like, how do you get them to describe what they see? Because for a lot of people, radio is a um Well, it's an unusual medium, isn't it? Because I mean you, you're restricted to just sound. So how do you get people to kind of describe places Well, [00:28:30] for for for a start, not everyone can do it. Um, the more familiar, the more memory filled or significance filled, is the scene in front of them. The the more interesting will be the description. So you're not looking for a description in the, um in the photographic sense you're not, you know, over there is that and in front of us is that and you're looking You're looking for something [00:29:00] more like an Impressionist painting, and it's going to be mixed in with their experience and their feelings about the place. So I would only get someone to describe something if it's of great significance to them. Otherwise, I would do that myself in script or, um, or devise some other way of getting it. But I mean, you know, if you're at the back of the farm in a in a drought with the farmer, [00:29:30] and you know he's attached to the land, and I would say to him, I see barren hills and pastures. I see you know, the ground is blister. The rocks are showing through. You can be a little bit poetic yourself. That's what I see. But you with your attachment to the land. You spent 40 years investing in this land [00:30:00] Sweat, money time. What do you see? And of course, what he's going to say is he's not gonna so much give you a picture. He's going to give you an emotional response, and that's what I'd be looking for in that circumstance. So you're looking for, you know, you've got to decide, um, different things I remember in Blackpool I mentioned blackball before that, there was a guy there who used to be a minor. I took him onto the main street and I said, Well, [00:30:30] you know, we've got motor cars and, uh, you know, the four square and, uh and all that. But 40 years ago, John the mine was just coming out. So you set the scene for him slightly. You know, the pits, the afternoon shift. It's just coming out four o'clock. What would you see? What would you say? And he went. He did a brilliant description of miners with black faces and mine hats on and dungarees tied at the knees. [00:31:00] And, um, and, uh, the union boss gathering them together. It was a It was a lovely evocation rather than description. of of a period long gone. But he what he did was something that I could never have done in script. So, you know, But that was the right person. I'd sensed that he had this quality. And mind you if it doesn't work, you, you It's not live radio. You're recording, so you don't have to use it. [00:31:30] So it's worth trying. Um, you know, I. I was pretty confident he could do it, and he did. But if he hadn't, you know, So you're actually directing them in quite a useful way, aren't you? Yes. Yes. And, um Well, I hope a fairly subtle way. But you're saying things like, OK, I see this, but what do you see? Or through your eyes? I want to experience this, [00:32:00] Um, and don't forget things like smells, um, temperature. It's hot and cold. Um, the wind. Um, those things can all be part of a scene, which, of course, back in the kitchen, in the car. And, you know, they they can't feel that, But with a modern microphone, you know, you can, um you're not just gonna be You are You are able to record in adverse conditions to [00:32:30] some degree. So, um and and then another thing is mood. Um, I remember when I was recording the, um for or in seabed. Hi. I went down there and from, um, some people, I you know, I. I thought I get the right response. I just tried to capture the mood, how they felt, You know, this this kind of gathering together, And [00:33:00] so there is something that in these intangibles shouldn't be ignored. You're not just dealing with the obvious and just asking questions for information. You're looking for all these other things. And you, you know, you you've just go, They're not always there, and only one or two of them may be there. But keep them in mind and you know they can. They can give an extra [00:33:30] lift to a programme and capture something which doesn't necessarily show up in even in a even even through a television lens. It can show through radio. I guess one of the things that's racing through my mind is your mind must be going at a million miles an hour when you are engaged with an informant talking about something, but also thinking, What's the next question? [00:34:00] What's happening behind this person. How do I get them to explain something? How does that all go on your head at the same time? Well, the way I think of it is that, um, the two part your brain is split in two in a in a way, um, you know, metaphorically speaking, part of it is concerned with the integrity of your expression That what your eyes are doing what your hand is doing, Um, [00:34:30] nodding slightly. Um, hopefully not what your tongue is doing because you don't want to be going. Mm. Yeah. Mm. Oh, yeah, Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. Um, that's what you don't want to do. I mean, the odd little murmur of agreement is is OK, but that's natural. But you've got to be careful that you don't intrude too much with, um, those natural kinds of responses that we have in normal conversation. As I say, an interview is not a conversation, [00:35:00] but it should sound conversational. Not be, but not because you are going Um, yes. Ah, it should be conversational in the sense that it it sounds natural. It sounds as though the person your informant, it's just talking naturally to you. and, um um, but the the the the brain is split in two. Part of it is is all that, um, facial response and so on. The other part of it is being utterly [00:35:30] clinical. It's thinking. Oh, yes. That's an interesting point. I will. I do that. Will I get her to expand that now, or will I wait until that she's finished the sequence, then I'll get her to come back to that and just expand on it. You're making that decision then, um and you're thinking right now she's said so much about this. My next question will be [00:36:00] either. Well, we finish with that, so we'll move on, or I wanted to expand. Spend more on this particular point. Um, so there, you know there are There are all those things going on. The more experience you get, the more natural that that becomes. It's just practise, You know, it's not a you you don't. It's not rocket science. Uh, none of this is rocket science. Obviously. Um, so you, [00:36:30] um Yeah, that's that kind of process is going on, but but you mustn't let your eyes go dead and your your cheeks sag. Well, because you are thinking. Oh, yeah. What will I do next? I mean that that's a failure. Um, that that is the just the the person the informant will send straight away that you know, you're not listening or you you're only half listening or you're distracted with. And don't parade the gear, you know, and keep the microphone well below. Don't [00:37:00] have it up in front of the eyes and, you know, keep it below the chin. The the gear is a necessary evil. Um, and it shouldn't be made too prominent to people. To your informants. Um, you should be competent, and you should be able to, you know, work the gear and make sure you're practised so that you're not You're not putting around when you you know, um, so that the informant will think Well, if they think you're no good with the gear, they're probably going to doubt whether [00:37:30] you're any good as an as an interviewer too, you know? So all these little things do you Do you think the gear puts people off? Well, yes, I mean it. It'd be nice to just chat to them with no gear at all. Um, but I mean, that's not possible. That's what I mean by by necessary evil. Um, you've got to have it there. I sometimes say that I'll say, Oh, you know, that's damn stuff we don't. We'd rather we didn't have it because it's about a chat. [00:38:00] You and me chatting. But I just I'm just gonna have the mic there and, you know, ignore it. Um, of course they can't ignore it, But it it's still comforting to to say that, uh, another thing, too, Which is it's a bit. It's a bit of a, um, problem is whether or not you should wear earphones. Um, personally, I would never wear earphones unless I had a very, very unreliable piece of gear. But, um, recording gear. I think [00:38:30] earphones are all part of the techno crap that should be minimised. Um, have confidence in your in your, uh, recording gear. Um, and and nowadays, there's absolutely no reason to in in radio and and even outside radio with the kind of digital gear that's available, um, have confidence where your mic where you need to place your mic, you know, about nine inches, um, below the below the mouth. Um, and then you don't need to [00:39:00] have headphones on, because headphones, you know, they are giving you a false Um um uh, feed if you like, and, you know, they do tend to encourage your eyes to glaze over, But when you start listening to and they're an unnatural, you know, we don't sit at a dinner table with headphones with bloody big things over our ears. Um, you know, talking. So I But on the other hand, I [00:39:30] know. And this happens even with professionals in in in radio, beginners just don't have the confidence they feel. They need to hear what's coming through. I'd say, OK, do that for a start, but always aim to get to the point where you don't need to do that and especially in field work, field work, you know, and and some of the difficult circumstances. Imagine if I'd been wearing earphones when I was doing the SI S programme. [00:40:00] I mean, you know, I had mud up my nose. I would have had mud in the earphones. Every God knows what they would have been just impossible. So especially when you're away from the static interview, um, you got to learn to manipulate your mic or microphones? Two microphones or one microphone, Um, with confidence and get to, you know, to know, Um I mean, there's a whole area of acoustics [00:40:30] here which you don't. You don't need to know a lot about acoustics, but, um, it's worthwhile knowing a few things. Uh, for example, when you're, um, doing a static interview like we are now we're We're doing this interview in a perfect in the drama studio here, which has perfect acoustic in radio terms. But you could be in a somebody's home. Um, it might be rather modern, and they've got a lot of glass and no carpets on the floor, [00:41:00] and, um, and it's as bouncy as hell. Now. It's as well to understand that with a microphone that the the what goes into it, you could form a vector of two components. There's the direct sound from your mouth, and there's the indirect sound bouncing off the walls. Um, when you're outside, the indirect sound is absolutely minimal. But when you're inside, it is quite important, and it covers the voice as I mean, I you know all this [00:41:30] backwards. But, um, for novices, um, it's important to realise that what you hear coming out of the wireless or what you hear of coming out of your recorder when you play back is a combination of those two. The two sounds. You get too much bounce off the windows or the you know the chromium, uh, wall here or whatever it is shiny wall. Then it will. The voice will be too coloured, and it'll it'll sound very [00:42:00] resonant. It'll sound as though you've recorded in the bathroom. Now, unless you're in a cathedral or a church where you want that effect, then you wish to minimise that. But at the same time, you don't want to do away with it totally Because, um, you you you just want that slight sound of resonance so that it it warms up the voice slightly and it sounds as though it's in a place in a room, Um, perhaps a little bit more resonant [00:42:30] than the studio. So you, but you may want it to sound just studio, in which case you pick a place with plenty of, um, curtains and a carpet on the floor and, uh, and certainly not the kitchen. Um, but if you're stuck, if you If you have to record in a in a resonant place and you can tell it's resonant by clapping your hands and you'll hear the clap kind of bounce around echo around, then [00:43:00] the best thing to do is to get it to go go in a in a corner. Now you do that because the bouncing the bouncy surfaces are closer to the microphone and the distance. The time lag between the bound signal and the direct signal is minimised and therefore that resonant. In fact, if it gets too big in a church or something like that, it can be a second signal. It can be an echo [00:43:30] literally, Um, so, of course, you don't want to get to that stage in the in somebody's living room, which you wouldn't, because the distances are not that great. But all I'm saying is you can if you're stuck, go into a corner where the two surfaces are reasonably close to your mic, and that will at least help. Um, and the there are various. I mean, watch out for recording in a car, for example. Um, not just because of the engine [00:44:00] noise, and sometimes you have to record in a car, and that's it. But you'll get a rather boxy effect in the car because it's just too small space, which is, you know, it's nice to hear a bit of space around the voice. Um, and of course, you get that naturally outside, But, um, in various locations in turn, in, in, in somebody in a home, you know you get, you get a greater amount in the bathroom and a lesser amount in other places. So when you are setting up an interview, [00:44:30] are all these thoughts going through your head in terms of, Well, what is the right location for this particular interview? Well, right, right. Location can be looked at in two ways. What is the right location? Technically, which is what I've just been talking about or the right location in terms of the programme, um, the right. That's where you've got to decide whether you do a static, static interview like we are with somebody [00:45:00] who's remembering or giving you information, and there's nothing no stimulus outside that can make it better or make it you know more, bring it alive more you've you've got to decide that and really, that's about it. um, if there is some way, you know, as I said, you wouldn't do in a sit down interview with the parking warden, you get out on the street. Um, on the other hand, the old soldier talking [00:45:30] about Gallipoli. Um, well, there's no point going out on the street with him, is there? Um, but he may well have a box of old letters and photographs. These are good memory triggers and would serve the same purpose as the outside standing on the you know, the, uh, the land which is drought ridden for the farmer, you know, So the memory triggers are quite good to have, [00:46:00] and they also give a sense of place, you know, because you'll be saying things like, Oh, Joe in that in that box over there, Um, yeah, you've got a you've got a few letters and photos, and Joe will say, Oh, yeah, and I would say, Right, Well, let's go over and have a sort through, and he'll move and he'll go off mic and he'll still be talking As he moves, though, I'll record all of that. You know, um, rather than have them all set there, [00:46:30] but you can please yourself. I would prefer to have a bit of movement and and and because that gives a sense of being in a place, which is what spectrum likes to have, you don't have to do do that, You know, this is they take your choice. But, um, yes, you don't have to be out by the river, um, to have a sense of place you can You can do it in in in someone's home and you can move around the home and there could be photos on the wall and you can open and shut a [00:47:00] door and go into this other room where which used to be, um, a study. Or, you know, there's all kinds of ways of and it doesn't have to be a spectacular sound or, you know, it's just little things that can just just add with things like boxes of photographs and that, uh, it it seems to me that you have to have a almost a pre idea of what this person can offer and what kind [00:47:30] of things they have. Do you often do like a a pre interview or some kind of set up before you actually go and meet somebody? Not usually. No. I, um I talk to them on the phone and I'll say to them, Oh, you know, if, um, I've got a programme coming up in a week's time where I'm seeing somebody, uh, up north. And, um, I talked to him on the phone yesterday and I said, Look, you know, have you got any, um, and it it turns out he's got a whole lot of photos and stuff, so [00:48:00] I don't want to know about them until I'm there. Um, I will be. I'll be as surprised. I'll be surprised by it. I don't want to be, um, what's the word rehearsed. I want to be genuinely enjoy what? He's going to show me as much as he's gonna enjoy it. So that's part of it. You are part of it. Um, you know, I don't think that it's that you keep out of it. Totally. It's [00:48:30] it's It's an It's an exchange between two human beings doing the most natural thing on Earth, which is talk to each other. Um, you know, which is older than the oldest profession? I think, um, I'm not sure. The oldest profession you do talk to each other much. But anyway, um, in this you do. So, um, so I never I. I just, you know, go over the flow, discover what he's got and dig in the box. And, um, you [00:49:00] know, of course you can. You you're editing all this anyway, you know? So I mean, you can afford to go down blind alleys. That's the other great thing about, um, recorded radio as opposed to the live stuff life stuff. You've got to be a bit careful about going down blind alleys because you lose your listeners. You can't edit it out. It's there. It's gone over the airwaves, and that's it. But with recorded stuff, you know, I often do. I'll think, Oh, I wonder, you know. And you, you you you [00:49:30] go down some some avenue or other private way, and it doesn't turn up what you thought. But so what? You know, you're not, uh it doesn't matter. That just gets edited out. Do you think this is one of the maybe fundamental differences between say, like doing a radio recording and something like an oral history, where with an oral history, you are specifically going for somebody's memories? of a particular thing. Better life history or an event history. [00:50:00] Whereas what you're talking about here is it's almost like a fishing trip, isn't it? Where you're you're fishing for? Um, this, uh, fishing is is exactly the word we used to use and myself, uh, years ago when we used to divide up the interviews into two types, the fishing type where you just have a general knowledge that he's farmed on the other side of the mountain for 50 years, and that's about all you know, and that he's a good talker [00:50:30] and that some of his mates reckon, Oh, yeah, he's bloody good. That's all you'd know and then you'd go fishing. On the other hand, you can have a much more detailed, um knowledge. For example, when we did a programme on the, um, very last survivor of a classic shipwreck, Albert Roberts, when he survived being ship wrecked on the, um the the wreck of the dundonald on [00:51:00] the disappointment is on Disappointment Island in 19 07. There there have been accounts of Albert, um, you know, bits of written accounts. So And Owen, when he did this programme, he was able to acquaint himself in detail and take Albert through the experience. And that was his job. Uh, you still do a little bit of fishing as well, because you don't know. You know, memory is multidimensional. [00:51:30] It's not just on a level plane. There are all kinds of things that Albert would censor that he might think. Oh, that's not important. I won't tell that, which might be fascinating. So you're always on the on the on the lookout, and you're always willing to throw out the lure and do a little bit of fishing around. You can never just do something. Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang like that. Or you shouldn't. I think if you do, then you're not doing [00:52:00] justice to the tremendous potential of memory under that reliving thing, you know, and you you need to bore down. It's a it's a it's a core. You know, there's all kinds of stuff down below. Um, little detailed stuff I remember with Albert Roberts. You know, he'd never talked before about how they used to kill um, albatross on the wing. These birds weren't scared [00:52:30] of human beings, and they fly over their head and they'd hit them with a bloody, um, chunk of wood. Well, that's but Albert didn't think that was very important. He just thought they wanted to. You know, here again, people in those especially people have not been exposed to this kind of thing. They think you're you're you're you're searching for battles and dates and, um, you know, big decisions and all that stuff. It's the tiny detail, which is often the, [00:53:00] um, the most fascinating and Albert talking about his gut searing hunger. I mean, we all know he must have been hungry. But when he when he talks about it and the words that he he used, you know, it's a whole other dimension. And so that's that's what you're, uh, you're after not just in oral history, but in anything, really. So in the art of fishing [00:53:30] is one of the key elements listening in and just picking up on key words that somebody listening is everything, uh, just a good job. You mentioned the term listening because you can, uh, Owen used to say that he he regarded himself as a professional listener, not as a professional interviewer, and that says a bundle. Uh, that's what you are. You know the the question is the end [00:54:00] product of a whole process of intense listening. And then the other thing you've got to do is not only listen, but you've got to think you've got to be processing what you're hearing. So in other words, there is what I call passive listening, which is what you do when you listen to somebody, Um, who's delivering a story. So you just absorb the story. You you're not gonna ask questions, you know, it's a it's a nice experience, but you can't just sit [00:54:30] there and listen to the story When you're interviewing, um, you must you must listen actively, as opposed to passively. And that means that you've got to You've got to be thinking, uh, if your brain shuts off and you're just enjoying what you're hearing, then watch out because you're gonna miss stuff. Um, and you're not doing justice to the topic. You're so you've you know, you've got to be taking an intense [00:55:00] interest and an intense, you know, brain, brain activation, whatever the word is, um, which will give you that? The question or the particular approach or the you do. You do get a sense of you know whether an interview is working. I always If I start to get mental pictures when the person's talking, then I know my audience [00:55:30] listening to the wireless will get the same thing. So and it's mental pictures, which I love. You know, um, whether it's bashing an albatross or, um, investing 40 years in a bloody, drought ridden farm, there's a mental picture there somehow, and it and it's not. And it's not just as I said before a photographic picture. It's an emotional, layered picture. [00:56:00] Um, so you're looking for all those subtleties and radio does it superbly, it's It's that intimacy and there's There's always an immediacy, somehow, about radio and intimacy, which you don't necessarily find in television when you're all everyone's given them the same picture, you know. So it's that theatre of the mind, the intimacy of that going on and being set up by words and pauses. [00:56:30] Don't forget that silences can say as much as as words. Um, a catch in the voice can say as much as floods of tears. In fact, what I'm saying is, very often less is more, and we should never forget that. And radio is a powerful enough medium for you don't need to wash the microphone with tears, you know, [00:57:00] And we you need to give your audience some credit of being emotionally sensitive enough to, um, share and understand vicariously what's going on in a person without needing to have it rammed down their throat. Which, unfortunately, sometimes you do hear How far do you push, uh, informants in terms of If you know it's an an emotional [00:57:30] story, how far do you push them knowing that it could result in them breaking down? I here again that that those things of integrity, um, them having trust in you? Um, I mean when you've emotional stuff like that will probably not come at the beginning of an interview. It'll come some way in, and by that time you've you've hopefully developed a relationship. That's the [00:58:00] other thing. An interview is a relationship between two people. They If if they're talking at that degree of emotional level recounting something that's happened, then they're already showing that they have a degree of trust in you, and you can't disrespect that. So in other words, if they if they're finding it really difficult, then I wouldn't hesitate to stop the recording and say, Look, it's OK, [00:58:30] look, just take your time. Um, sometimes they'll say, Oh, no, no II. I want to keep going Other times they'll they'll want to, you know, And they'll sometimes not want you to to broadcast or to record the the the worst of their tears. Well, this is where integrity in your editing comes in. Their respect for them is everything. And the listener does not [00:59:00] have the right to to see every bit of naked emotion. Um, the the informant is giving you something, and that's what they want to give you. Um, is it should it should be respected. I would certainly encourage along the lines of look, you know, you may find this very painful. Uh, indeed, you obviously do. But it's such a invaluable insight. And there [00:59:30] are people who will hear this, who may be going to or have gone through the same experience. They will identify with it. Um, if you feel like continuing and giving this, then that's all I would say. Really, it would still be up to them, obviously. And the very last thing you can do is, um, you know, pretend you're not recording or something like that. That's an absolute [01:00:00] no no, that would shatter every bit of trust. That relationship had never do it. You've used the word informant a number of times, and my kind of feels that it's a wee bit clinical. And I'm wondering, Is that a way of kind of distancing yourself from, um, the interview subjects? Not really. It's just that I don't like the word interviewee [01:00:30] because that brings it back to that term interview. And, um, it's probably a silly little personal thing, but I just use the word informant. Um I. I don't mean anything by it other than the person I'm chatting to you if you like, or, um, you know, it's no, it's not. Um, I agree with you. It it it it is a little bit, uh, clinical sounding, but for want of a better term. So [01:01:00] then how do you, um, keep a bit of a distance from the stories that you're recording? Because, I mean, you've had, you know, over 40 years of of doing these interviews, or do you absorb all those stories and and they are within you or do you try and distance yourself a wee bit. Well, you forget parts of them, and some of them you'll never forget bits of them You'll never forget. But I think there is a point here about [01:01:30] what tends to happen was certainly some intense kind of material where you do get very close. I've just finished an example of this where I've been doing a programme where I went round with, um, a nurse who nurses people who are dying. What's the word? Hospice nurse Joan Doyle and I spent four or five hours or so talking [01:02:00] to people who are dying now to make that sound good on the wireless. You've It's a fairly intense process, and I ended up with, um, you know, hours and hours of material. And then I had to get all that down to half an hour for the programme, and I found listening to them. They were marvellous people. Joan, the hospice nurse, selected these people really well, and they they had marvellous [01:02:30] stories to tell about their own personal dealings with this plight that they were in. Anyway, I had to go through all this stuff and edit it down to half an hour and, um, at the end of it, I produced the programme and I thought, Yeah, it's pretty good But I didn't have the confidence to say that with any degree of abstraction. And [01:03:00] I needed somebody else to hear it because I got so close to the material and that's what happens. And you have to, um, be aware of that when you're doing this kind of stuff, especially if you're editing, um intensively. After you've gathered that you do get very, very close and that there is a danger in that that you don't you know you don't see the the wood for the trees [01:03:30] kind of thing. Um, you're perhaps thinking that this is assuming more importance, and perhaps it should in the balance of the half hour or whatever. So there's a warning. Just, um, there's no easy way around that, except perhaps to just go away and not hear it for a couple of weeks. But in radio, you can't always do that because you're working to a time schedule. We're we're punching them out, you know. But yes, it's an It's inevitable [01:04:00] that especially with very emotionally intense stuff, which is what happened with the hospice stuff that you are drawn in to a point where you're so close and I'd rather want to let a bit of fresh air in there and to stand back and just get somebody to listen and and either confirm that what I've done is the right thing or say, Have you noticed that there there's a rather big concentration [01:04:30] on this, that or the other? Do you think you would be better just editing that bit down a bit? Whatever. So that's That's one thing that can happen. I'm not quite sure if I've answered your question, but I mean it. It it's It's a a connected point that I think is quite important. You were saying earlier about having mental pitches. Sometimes when you record and knowing that if it's working for you, then in the field, it's going to work for the listeners [01:05:00] in the field when you're seeing those mental pictures, is that almost you? You're almost editing in your head already. The audio. Yes, You do that a lot. The more practised you've become at this. Um, the more I can now, um, with some topics which are pretty straightforward, you know, I can come away from the interview and I hardly even need to play it back. I know I'll take [01:05:30] that chunk, that chunk and that chunk and join them together with the whatever and that'll be the programme. Um, that's not always the case. Take the hospice programme, for example. There was so much good material there, excellent material that I didn't know how I was going to integrate it, cut it back and yet still have an integrated programme. And it was worrying me, you know, [01:06:00] it's it's not as though I had three hours or four hours of material and only only you know 45 minutes was any good. It wasn't like that at all. The whole bloody four hours was good, Really good. So what do you do? You know, it's a challenge. And that's what being a professional, uh, broadcaster or producer of a documentary style programmes is about. It's not just about the easy that bit that bit and that bit and you've got the programme. [01:06:30] It's sometimes about a degree of intensity and a and a spread and an emotional depth of the material. How do you do it? Justice? So you know, it varies. One of the things with recording in a variety of situations, and I'm thinking like going to a hospice or going to, um, the wife of a farmer is that not everyone will [01:07:00] be as clued up in terms of rights and permissions and how things are going to be used and how things are going to be broadcast or published. What kind of conversations do you have with informants before you actually record? It's probably just taken for granted because I only record for one reason, or I have done other projects for, you know, oral history and that. But normally, um, I go along. I'm an RNZ producer. I work [01:07:30] for spectrum. We think this would be a good programme for spectrum, so they know that that's what it is. But I mean, if you're doing something which is less obvious, and then you have to be very, very clear. And of course, with oral history, they've got things for you to sign and all that, don't they? Which I never do. I don't need to do that. Um, I just, um if there's anything doubtful in the programme, then [01:08:00] I would make sure that that that I have their permission that they know that I'm going to use that, or I may use that. I wouldn't just take it for granted. I if there was something, you know, that could open criticism for whatever. You know, um, then I will point that out to them. Do you ever have people come back after a recording session and say, Oh, please don't use this, but, oh, please don't use that, but rarely. [01:08:30] But it does happen. And, um, you know, I'll chat to them about it. Um, and it's their decision, obviously. And if they feel strongly enough to ring you up, I mean, they may they may have a wrong basis for their And I may be able to say, Look, I've had, you know, a dozen examples of this and it's just never happened. You you know, you haven't got [01:09:00] that response and then they'll say, Oh, well, in that case, I'll trust you. You know, I'll, um, go along. But if they say no, I'm not happy, Then that's it. What is the main reason somebody would want to come in and and say, Oh, please don't use that. But is it because they fear a public response. Usually it's because it they've talked about somebody who are still alive or a relative is still alive, who they feel would be hurt. [01:09:30] And that's, you know, very valid. Um, thing. It's, um and I mean, if if this person has done something quite clearly outrageous and and there's no question that it's happened, then if I thought there was any kind of legal ramification, I'd get out of legal legal to put an ear on it. But in spectrum work, as opposed to, you know, some perhaps [01:10:00] insight or harder line programmes in spectrum work, that's rare. I can remember one, programme had its humorous side in a way where, um this person told me something, which in effect revealed this was in the bad old, more sensitive days, but in effect revealed that this person who was still alive was a bastard in the old [01:10:30] terms. A bastard, you know, out of wedlock, and I she hadn't realised what she'd said, and I went back to her afterwards of my own volition. I said, Hey, do you realise that? You know? And she said, Oh goodness and she said, Well, take that out. And we did. Um, so you know, I. I took that upon myself. I mean, it didn't ruin the programme that we didn't have that detail in there. Even [01:11:00] if it had, I would still have pointed it out to her just to make sure she may have well have wanted to make the point. And she couldn't care a damn whether anyone knew that this person was a bastard and, you know, born out of wedlock or whatever. I mean, this is this is nearly 40 years ago, so I mean, you know, sensitivities are perhaps vastly different nowadays, but not necessarily with some older people. You don't know. Do you think people are more media savvy these days? Oh, yes, Yes, [01:11:30] Very definitely. Yes. I mean, in the early days, um, they look a scan. So a tape recorder. Now, a tape recorder is found in just about any. Any home. You know, microphones are they're not a worrier. Although you still have to be cautious with my You know, as I said, you don't pose the microphone on you on somebody. And, um but yes, they are. [01:12:00] A lot of the people tend to think in television terms too, or or think that I'm a reporter. I'm looking for the scandalous news or something. And I have to, you know, point out that my job is not that, um So there are those assumptions. Um, but it's changed, you know. Whereas in the past, it was these people felt that they had no part to play in [01:12:30] their experience had no part to play in our history. Now, people, that's long gone, Because oral history has become very much a forefront, uh, experience of a lot of people. And so therefore, there's not There's not that, um, worry that we used to have Do you think people are a lot more kind of open in terms of what they'll discuss nowadays? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Is that a good thing? It makes your job a bit easier, I suppose. Um, [01:13:00] it's just a sign of the times. I. I don't know whether it's a good thing or a bad thing that, um um they'll discuss things. Now, you know, it may be sexual or, um, you know, intimate family, um, stuff that they wouldn't have dreamt of, um, discussing years ago. Um, and it would depend on the context of as to whether that's a good thing or a bad thing. It would depend on who's being hurt or if anyone's [01:13:30] being hurt. Um, or is is this, um what you're looking at and exposing? Is it going to do anything for at a personal level to enhance somebody's life, or is it going to do something to enhance society? I mean, there are all those things. If those things are answered in the negative, then perhaps you'd have to say, Well, it's just, um you know, [01:14:00] do we do We need to drag this out and, um, parade it in front of the listening public just for their for their uh, there's a word for it. Um, you know, um, their de lactation, their, um you know, just because, um, it's a bit like putting a whole lot of sex in a television programme. Just, you know, uh, just because we know that happens, do you Do you need to show it kind of thing? Same thing with some stuff on radio? [01:14:30] Has there been ever a situation that's just in in terms of recording that has just left you speechless that you go I. I didn't see that coming. Almost never quite. But it it occurred in the hospice programme. Actually, where this guy who is riddled with cancer, and he said It's been a great adventure and he talked on and I [01:15:00] said, Are you telling me that getting sick terminally ill is an adventure? He said, Yeah, for a I mean, it threw me for a moment and then he went on and explained, You know, you know, and it was a very good explanation, but I mean it it it It didn't leave me speechless I but I But I was very surprised that I would hear Anyone who is who is dying would say [01:15:30] that getting sick to that degree was an adventure. Quite something, isn't it? And the guy was genuine. I mean, he went on and explained it, and it it made sense. I'm wondering when you go and do a recording. We've talked a wee bit about locations and but maybe, for instance, sitting in a lounge, uh, or in a place that doesn't have hard surfaces, so you don't get that kind of reflected sound [01:16:00] when you're actually sitting or setting up the seating arrangement for people. How close are you? And I'm I'm just wondering about kind of personal space and how it's quite important, actually, Um, I always try to, um, be at about 45 degrees from my, um I'll use the word informant to get the person I'm chatting to. Um, I do that deliberately because I want to leave them space to escape [01:16:30] from my eyes. See, we're facing one another, and I have to look out there if I want to kind of look, look inward and escape your eyes. You see, whereas if we if we were at 45 degrees, I would naturally I would have my head slightly turned to to talk to you. But I could always look out into the the wide blue yonder. Um, I think people, [01:17:00] I was slightly more comfortable sitting at a slight angle where they can look away and escape and kind of go internal. Um, and I certainly wouldn't get any closer than we are now, because what I would normally be doing with two mics, I would have one, and I always handhold mics bloody good for your shoulder muscles. Um, especially if you're doing a very long interview. But, um um, [01:17:30] yeah, well, the thing is, if you're hand holding them when they lean back or move away, you can follow them if you don't want them to go off mic. Sometimes going off mic is quite nice, because it it it indicates movement. It's the radio mono radio equivalent of the stereo stage is going on and off, Mic. That's slight, subtle difference in the frequency component that that comes about. And the volume comes about from going off mic. Anyway, [01:18:00] that's, um where were we? I forgot what we We're talking about the space between interviewee interview. Oh, yes, yes. I mean, what are we now at, um, 3 ft or so? Yeah. I think that I I mean, sometimes in the in the in the early of doing field recording you You know, you you are much closer. Or if you're in a helicopter, you're right next to the pilot and you're shoving the microphone right onto his lip to keep the [01:18:30] noise to voice ratio. Uh, the right, you know, um, so there are certain circumstances where you, um uh but in a normal static sit down recording, interview like we're doing here. Yeah. 3 ft. This is about is about right. And in terms of, uh, chairs or sofas. Do you have any advice? And I? I know that, for instance, like a leather seat will make squee noises. Yeah. Yeah. You've got to consider things like [01:19:00] that. I'm quite happy on normal chairs like this. Um, sofa can be a bit awkward because you're both set. You set up 90 degrees, which is too much, I feel because you didn't have to do this. And so does your informant. Um, so But what I do too, if you if you're sitting at a desk, if this was square, this is round in front of us. But if it was square, I never sit on the other side of the desk so that you're [01:19:30] at it. The desk then forms a barrier between you. I would sit cross cornered, uh, so that, you know, the corner of the desk would be here, and we could comfortably, um, we could use the desk to put our papers on on the record or whatever. Um, but we're we're there's not. There's not a physical presence like a table separating us totally. And that's why you've set it up here. We're we're on the edge of the circular [01:20:00] table. So if we were on the other side there, I knew I'd be too far from the mic anyway. And so would you. But, um yeah, those little good little details can they can matter because, um, you know, bad sound quality. Um, and the other thing you've got to watch when you're in a a room, especially a kitchen, um, or some place in the house is the the [01:20:30] extraneous noises. You know, the buzzing fridge. Um, it's not just sounds you can hear either. You've got to be aware of, um, the possibility of RF, as we call it, radio frequencies. As you know, um, you know, a faulty a faulty fluorescent light, for example can, um, can cause problems. And you won't be aware of it until you listen. So always do a test. I think that's sometimes [01:21:00] in my field. Um, I don't have a chance, You know, I'm you're into it, and that's it. And you got to take potluck. And it's rare that you do get these these forms of interference, but it can happen. Uh, where you you're not just hearing something through going through the microphone. You're hearing an electronic, um, interference going on to your recording because of RF radio frequency in the room, you know, [01:21:30] And if if that happens, then about all you can do is go somewhere else or turn the light off, or if if you know what it is, you know, if it's fluorescent lights, you may try turning the fluorescent lights off. And of course, you'll be doing an interview in the dark. I don't know which is worse. So in the hospice programme, um, what were some of the considerations in terms of how people were sitting? And, you know, I'm assuming there's kind of equipment in the in, in the rooms as well. Did you have any issues with interference or [01:22:00] the way people were sitting? No, it was a bit difficult because they we come into the Joan and say hi, how are you? And we and we come and, um and they say, Oh, come in And and and the, you know, the person who's being cared for would sit on the table. His or her partner would kind of sit down somewhere else, and I didn't want to start rearranging them. Um, that would kind of be imposing. [01:22:30] I wanted it to flow right from the word go. So I didn't do that. What? I But I had two microphones, so I was able to stretch across the table and have one on John or, you know, and one on his partner. And then move one microphone across to Joan Doyle, the hospice nurse. Um, see what I mean. So this is where two microphones gives you a big advantage because you are, in effect, a mobile [01:23:00] recording unit able to tackle just about anything that crops up. If you're in the field with two microphones, there might be a little girl and her mother and her mother says something. A little girl says something. You you can't capture both those, especially with the bloody traffic noise behind them. You've got to have a 11 mic on one and one mic on the other. So with one with one mic, that's difficult. You're gonna be moving between and probably miss both. So, you know, [01:23:30] there are those, uh, physical, uh, problems. But not everyone can have two mics, obviously, and two handheld mics. But two handheld mics. I don't think I've ever, um, met a situation where I couldn't get a reasonable audio, some reasonable audio out of the sit. You know, um, even though it might be very awkward, you know, on the back of a bike going around a, [01:24:00] um, a farm. So I've got one mic on myself, the other mic on the on the driver, you know, and hope I don't fall off because I've got no hands left to hang on with. So But I mean, with only one mic, you, you all you can do is talk to it yourself or get him to talk. How does having more than one person in the recording affect the dynamic? So I'm thinking that if you've got, like one, you're doing a one on one interview. Then what happens if somebody else is in the room? Say, like in the hospice? [01:24:30] Well, there is two things here. Um, so having somebody else in the room when you're doing a 1 to 1, it may be OK if it's a spouse or, um, something like that. But if it's, uh, with the hospice, it was no problem, because all the people in the room were intimately concerned with that situation. You know, the hospice nurse, the spouse. And And it wasn't just the patient that I got great material from. It was the the spouse [01:25:00] who's had to, you know, administer the pills and give up his job and, um, take the little boy to school and all, you know, So that's all participation. That's all contributing. Um, but there isn't. There isn't something else. Another dimension to this kind of thing. Uh, I love to record groups, not just because you get a variety of voices and that is a consideration in a half hour programme. You know, you mightn't want just one [01:25:30] voice the whole half hour unless they're very good, but it sound that would begin to sound a bit like a Kim Hill studio interview. See, I don't want it to sound like that, but what I like about recording with groups is that they bounce off one another, and that's the big plus. So if you've got some occasion, um and you've got various people, um, who were involved in various ways in some occasion, [01:26:00] that may have happened 20 years ago or whatever gathering them together is a very good way, Um, of, of getting multidimensional kind of memories and and seeing it from different angles. And they'll also key off one another. They'll say, Oh, do you remember when blah, blah, blah and the other person What? No, I don't remember that. Yes, you do. Remember, you fell off the back of the horse? Oh, yeah. You know, and and, of course, what it does, [01:26:30] it becomes very conversational. It sounds very natural. So you're not just going to each one and asking them formal questions? I warn them beforehand. I say, Look, forget me. Um, I'll be coming in. I'll be curious with the odd question, but I want you to enjoy this occasion. I want you to relive it. I want you to, um, you know, stimulate each other. And if they're a good group, that's what happens. And that can make really good radio. [01:27:00] Um, you know, this bounce off kind of stimulating one another, and, um, and you and you get better material overall because you're not just getting one person. You know, you're getting a a kind of multifaceted, um, picture a portrait of an event that makes sense absolutely. I think some of the most interesting interviews I've heard is when it's been, for instance, like a couple, and [01:27:30] they almost well, they kind of finish each other's sentences or they contradict each other or they talk over each other. And so you've got these wonderful dynamics. Yes, it is. And it's a very human form of radio. It's it's You're right there in the room with a with a couple, you know, it's not. There's nothing formal about it. It's, um it takes away the whole feeling of interview in a sense, [01:28:00] and the further the more fearful feeling that you you can have of, but not really being an interview, just chat that word chat again. Then the more happier I am and the more, um, is the listener, um, brought in. They are brought right into the they're there in the room with the couple or whatever. They're not being lectured or [01:28:30] or told about something from a distance, you know, and it's that closeness that that comes across. How do you end an interview? Um, well, you know, uh, if we seem to have come to the end of the piece of string, um so I'm good. Um, get out the scissors. Um, but, um, what I usually look for is some kind of strong [01:29:00] ending, some kind of summation or some something that I don't like to just let it fade away to zero to kind of fade away to, you know, to nothing. Um, So I you know, I This is This can be a bit cliched, but I might say, Well, look, we've covered your the Napier earthquake. You're travelling down to Christchurch. Um, the war years [01:29:30] when you look back on your life, you know, do you think you've been fortunate or or not so fortunate I might do something like that. And then, you know, there's an obvious ending. Um, you might get you might get a crap response from it. I don't know, but I I do would I would look for something like that. Um, but they may just come out with something like that. Anyway, as the sense of becoming clo coming [01:30:00] closer to the present occurs naturally in the interview. So, you know, there could be a natural rounding off anyway, and you'd get a quite a quite a nice It doesn't have to be a big, strong rambus. Um, ending. Um, you know, some pieces of music in quite softly. Do you find that, uh, interview situations often have natural endings? I'm thinking that, uh, people only have so much energy [01:30:30] and so much stamina that do you do Do you find that? Actually, people will say, Actually, that's that's enough. But they they won't say that. Yeah. I mean, there is this There is the point that when you're doing extended work with, um, say an oral history, Um, especially with people say in their eighties. And they will get tired, and it's best with older people to usually to interview them in the morning. [01:31:00] Um, they're not as alert very often. This is You've got to generalise. I mean, I spoke to a 94 year old a few, um, a month or two back. Who broke all these rules? She was amazing. Um, but in general, um, older people do need a rest, and I if you're doing something about their whole life or something, you know, extended, then I would probably do it in two or even [01:31:30] three parts. Um, I spread it over three mornings, or you may want to spread it over the day. But, um, certainly look beyond the lookout for, uh, tiredness creeping in. And, um and of course, there's something else you find with older people. Um, and it's not necessarily a bad thing, but they have programmed their memories. In other words, they've repeated these [01:32:00] things so often. I think you've you you've, um you can find it with some some people who are very good. Uh, I remember, um, John A. Lee, the famous, um, author and politician of the, uh, early part of the 19th century when I talked to John, um, he could rattle off all these stories, but they were so obviously, um, pre pre, um, preformed, if you like. And he had [01:32:30] them perfectly rehearsed. They were very good. So I'm not, You know, I'm not faulting him, but I mean it it is. That's something you tend to get from older people rather than people in their middle years. How do you maybe break that story? So, what kind of questions would you fire at somebody to try and get them off the off of your Well, you You'd have to You'd pick on something. [01:33:00] Um, they all have said, And Gee, I was angry at that. And then we went on and we we got on the train and we and I'll bring I'll bring him back And I say, OK, you were angry just how angry. If you'd had the opportunity, what would you have done now that breaks the You know he hasn't got that programme and he's going to because he's good. He'll he'll give you something probably quite reasonable. So it's very [01:33:30] often this kind of interviewing is using the zoom lens, Um, knowing when to allow the story to flow at a certain distance and when to go right and close. And, um, just pick on some very often. It's an emotion they've mentioned, or a eyebrow raising event that they pass over. That's where you've got to be listening all the time. And just [01:34:00] suddenly you know, you you're wanting to know more about that, and that will break the pattern as it were. It may take them by surprise, too, which nothing wrong with surprise. Surprise on on on the wild is is good, very human, um, emotion and, um and can herald interesting material. What was the change [01:34:30] like when you went from analogue recording, like with the the the tape machines to digital. So digital happened, what in the 19 nineties? In the nineties? Yeah, Uh, well, the change for me was huge. Um, not so much in the way we gathered material there. There was a minimal change in that. Although the recorders were getting smaller and better, and we could record for longer periods, you know, there was all that. So we went from the old, uh, quarter hour tapes to, [01:35:00] um, you know, and then on to, um uh what it flash cards and things just you could record for longer and longer. There was all that, but there was a whole change in the way you edited things and the what you could do. And when we moved to initially, I was going to retire. This is a a digital editor on a computer. Yes. Yes. Sorry. Uh, is, um, the marvellous [01:35:30] system of digital editing. Where you you It's a bit like word processing, But you're working with a wave form, um, on a on a computer screen, and you can raise a cutter and edit very anyway. When we first came to that and remembering that in the nineties I was in my sixties and I really came very close to saying, Bugger this. I've I've been with Anna for, um, 30 [01:36:00] odd years. Um, 40 years. Um, this is not my, um I'll I'll leave it. I just partly I stuck with it because II I was just a bit less than 65 and the early so I couldn't have had the pension, so I needed the money. But But also, there was something just said, Oh, you know, stick with a bit long anyway, the long and the shorter. But within a year or nine months or so, I was utterly sold [01:36:30] on digital digital editing. It was marvellous. Once I got over the initial you see, before, um, Digital, I couldn't even use a keyboard. I couldn't type, so I had all that to learn all that very rapidly. And I was in, uh, IT terms totally ignorant. I still am in many ways, but I know enough now to just be able to do something on a on [01:37:00] a computer, uh, do something in, and the sheer control and precision that, uh, the digital it brings brings to to you is marvellous. Whereas in the old old days, you know you had it was a bit like playing a musical instrument. You had to hit the buttons on the edit at the right time, as you'll remember. And, um, if you didn't, then you had to redo the edit and and you had to watch out for tape hiss [01:37:30] when you were doubling up on things and there were a whole lot of restrictions. Um, I remember doing a big series of, uh, the history of radio in the nineties, and it was the very last analogue programme. A big series. I did. And I've often thought, If only I'd done that in Digital because I would have mixed and faded and created sound beds and done all that which wasn't really on, because I did all my own technical work and still [01:38:00] do my own technical work. But in analogue, the difficulties of doing that were considerable. I mean, the series. You know what the eye doesn't what? The ear doesn't hear the eye the heart doesn't yearn for, I suppose, but But even so, I'm aware of that. You know, the the the flexibility is just enormous. It's, um it's hard to explain to someone who hasn't worked in the two, but, um, it's a whole new world. Mind you, there is a [01:38:30] There was one downside I remember was, um, when people first started, um, doing things in digital, they did things not because those things needed to be done, but because they could be done so they would close the gap in speech, close it too much in analogue. We'd never do that because it was too difficult. Um, but with say to you, with digital, you can close that gap right up. You [01:39:00] can take a breath out, No trouble. So you've got to be a bit careful that you don't take the naturalness out of speech the you know, and that you don't take every R and R, um, to the point. There's nothing wrong with taking arms and eyes out, but to the point where the speech is starting to sound a bit mechanical a bit, um, as though it's been join together, you know, and it's starting to sound like that. Then watch. Watch out, you know, Don't do it. Don't just because you can do it. Um, [01:39:30] it's not really good enough reason to do it. So why do you edit? Well, many reasons. Um, you you you edit, um, to make better sense of a of a piece to make it flow better. So you may take out a certain, um, piece. That's the person has thrown in because it's it's not strictly relevant. There's that kind of editing, which is what you might call factual [01:40:00] pretty factual editing. You you edit. Well, I always had it to try and make the best of my informant. The person. And I think we should we forget that at our peril? Um, really, that's I mean first, OK, The listeners, you know, should be presented with a flowing easily understandable, um, piece of audio. And we shouldn't always remember [01:40:30] that this is for the year and the it's not like the page. The ear is fleeting. Um, the you can't go back over something. You know, all these things I know these are well known for, um uh, even with novices, But, um, that has to be kept in mind when you're editing so clarity and simplicity of, um, the the audio not to not to, um, [01:41:00] dero it of its emotional impact. And that doesn't mean to say that the pause should be, uh, taken out. The the pause there can indicate thought can indicate emotion, so you must be aware of that. Those things must be left in they. You might shorten them a bit. I don't know. It's a judgement. It's experience practise. You know all these things. But, um, the the other form of editing, too, is that there's the sheer [01:41:30] necessity with radio production of having to work to a time limit. So therefore, you're having to make decisions about as I had with the hospice. I had all this marvellous material. How was I going to get it down? One of the techniques I ended up using was to fade in on material and fade out. If you do that in the right places, you can. You can bring your audience [01:42:00] into a scene and then gently move your audience out of that scene. So you're not. You don't have a cut, which has a beginning and an end. It has a and you come. You stay with it for a while, then you fade out and then you fade into something else. which, um, works well, I think in the hospice programme works very well, but that was about the only way I could find my way around in including quite [01:42:30] a few disparate pieces from different people. Um, so there's another form of editing. Editing is not just about putting a razor cut here and another razor cut there and deleting that and joining the two together. It's about how you fade in on a scene, fade out on a scene. Um, it's it's also about, you know, putting script over the sound. Um, and and you know, just how you do that. There's a whole lot [01:43:00] of this. We could talk for hours on these topics, but, I mean, I'm just mentioning them in, in general, so editing and production really are part of the same process. And, um, production, I suppose, is a better term than than editing. The production is, you know, forming the whole in a in a concise but, you know, believable kind of flowing. Um uh, piece. Um, [01:43:30] and there are a whole lot of techniques that, especially in digital, uh, are so easy to do. Um, a lot of these techniques come from the old drama days of early radio where the fade fade out. If anyone remembers the old arches, every scene was a you know, faded and faded out And you, you, you it became a cliche You It was just too much of it, you know? But it was That was what it was done in the sixties seventies. You know, the transitions [01:44:00] you're doing in production. Um, you are also very good at doing transitions actually out on the field in the in the initial recordings. Yeah, that's here again. That's experience and practise you. You get to the point where when you're in the field, you're seeing and hearing things in terms of radio back in the studio. In other words, the production in the studio and the gathering in the field are part and parcel [01:44:30] of the same process. When initially, when you first start this kind of work, you tend to think of the two things as separate. You go out in the field and you and you gather a whole lot of stuff and it and it's a bit higgledy piggledy And you think, Oh, I'll bugger that. The technician can fix that when I take it back into the studio. When you have to do your own technical work, you soon get out of that habit. I can tell you, um, so you're looking for smooth transitions. I mean, and you're also looking to [01:45:00] a programme that drags that uses script. It, um it's It's what I call, um, using script to get yourself out of trouble and to go from one piece to another piece. Oh, how do we join those two things? Oh, we shove a bit of script in. That's clumsy, uh, rather amateurish radio. There are all kinds of other ways. I'm not saying that you shouldn't do that ever and that it's It has [01:45:30] its place, certainly in a programme like Insight and the the The The Programmes, where there's a heavy editorial content of the producer having to put in information. But in a programme like Spectrum, there's no need for it. Um, and what happens is that you keep dragging your audience from the field from the vicarious experience of being there, you're dragging them back into the studio. Well, that's a rather pointless thing to do. Why not leave them [01:46:00] experiencing the real thing and just seamlessly introduce them to various things. So that would bring in things like commenting to about something, uh, on the microphone or directing your talent to say something. I'll give you an example. Um, you're down by the sheep yards. Um, and you know that that that really you want to record up in the pub? Next? So what do you do? Well, [01:46:30] you could do two things you could make sure you've got plenty of sheet noises, bar, bar, bar, bar, and you can fade out on that. And the next thing you can fade up on is the clink plank of glasses on the tool going, you know, and the barman saying, Um, yes, sir. What would you like? Or another beer, sir. Or a beer? Beer, Charlie, All those kind of stuff. So you can go from one scene to another in sound purely in sound. That's one way. And it's far better [01:47:00] than saying from the sheep yards we went up to the the pub. I mean, who who wants that kind of script from there? We went to the, you know, amateurish, uh, clumsy, unnecessary. Uh, another way is to, um it's to get your talent you've got a guy leaning on the on the on the yard fence and you, you know, you're not getting them to do Shakespeare. But you do say to him, Look, [01:47:30] I wonder just a AAA way of getting into the into us, talking up to the guys at the pub, um, in your own words, you know, and he'll come out with something, and you'd be surprised how good people are at doing this because they're in their own environment, and he'll say, God, I'm as dry as a little bloody wooden God, what say we're going to have a beer? Well, that's a real, you know, much better and natural way. And the next thing you hear is the the the pub [01:48:00] sound. Um, you see those things you think of in the field and there are, you know, they're endless ones. And, um and I would do, uh, a programme recently where where I was, um, gathering, um, doing a programme on, uh, what? I called, um, memory. You get into your seventies and your memory goes, um, well, anyway, the the the name [01:48:30] will come to me, but they they go around gathering vegetables at markets for the for the hungry. And, um, you know, the stuff would be thrown out otherwise, Um, um, it's called, so I knew that I was going to go to the home of compassion and see where the food parcels were given out. So why why put in a chunk of scripts and saying, Well, after the vegetable market had closed, we went down to the Newtown. Um blah, [01:49:00] blah, blah. So just a microphone at the veggie market. I said, Uh, OK, John. Well, that's just about it for the market. You know, we've You've done pretty well, he said, Oh, yeah, we've got 90 kilogrammes, bloody good vegetables And I say, Yeah, and that's all gonna go on. And a lot of that's gonna go down to the City mission in Newtown. Yeah, that's where it's going to end up in food Parcel. And I say, and that's where [01:49:30] I'm going. So, um, and then you fade up on the sea. So there's There's another technique which sounds far more natural and flowing them. A chunk of here I am there. I'm going kind of script, but you must have to have quite a clear idea in your head before or as you're recording that this is going to be the structure of the piece. Yes, but you can do you can do alternatives, and you don't need [01:50:00] to use it if you change your mind. So you might. If you know that you might go there or you might go there, then do do a couple of alternatives. Or if you don't know where you're gonna go, then just do an out see what I mean? So that and then perhaps with other things, do sound in fade ups on certain noises. That and then when you you're at these other places say something Well, [01:50:30] that, like I haven't come from the veggie market. But just say, Well, this is this is new Town and more particularly, it's a It's a It's the, uh, city mission in Newtown and you can hear all around me, uh, people having a chat before they get their food parcels. Something like that. Be be careful that you don't make it too formal, you know, chat it, say respond to what's around. You don't make it. [01:51:00] AAA script that doesn't is not part of the scene, you know, relate the scene into your statement, and that's what happens a lot with when you're working in, um, in the field. You're not asking questions in the way of of of, uh, you would in a in a studio. You're You're asking questions about what you're seeing, what you're hearing, what you're smelling, what you're feeling. Um, and you're [01:51:30] getting your informants to respond in the same terms, because why be there if you're only going to ask questions that are about, you know, that you would ask, sitting in a studio Well, why be out in that place so that you've you've got it here again. It brings your listeners into vicariously with you. You're taking your listeners and treating them with some respect [01:52:00] You're not. You're not excluding them, you're bringing them in and allowing them to share what you're seeing, because that's the only reason you're there is so that you can bring your listeners there. You know you're not privileged. You shouldn't be. You're only there for one reason. Over the 40 years that spectrum has been running what has had the biggest listener response? Probably some of the satires that Owen used to do years ago he'd do a satire [01:52:30] on the royal wedding or, um, piggy Muldoon tax reforms. And these were a departure for spectrum. There were specials, but he was particularly good at it. He could write a really good satirical script. They used to go down very, very well. I suppose the the other others were really good at, um, strong oral history. Um, programmes that were really like the dundonald. Um, the wreck of the dundonald [01:53:00] with, you know, the cabin boy, Albert Roberts. Uh, those kinds of programmes. Um, if you want to get a huge response, then it's quite simple. Just upset people. You'll get a response. Pleasing people doesn't elicit a large response. Normally, uh, especially in a prolong running programme like spectrum, people just expect to be entertained or informed [01:53:30] or whatever they get out of it, and they're not gonna run, run to the computer and email, um, unless they want added information. That's another way of, um, getting a response. If if something they're personally interested in and they'll say, Oh, yeah, I must. I want to find out more about that because I want to join or I want to contribute or whatever. That's that kind of response you get. But the other way is to is to upset [01:54:00] people. I remember we did that once with, um um when Prince Princess di got married back in 81 I think it was opted A a guide to the royal wedding. And we didn't hold back. That got a response. All all the all the, uh, the royal followers in New Zealand were most upset about it, so they got a huge response. But [01:54:30] I suppose you could say for all the wrong reasons. But on the other hand, you know, um, you can't please everyone all the time. So you you you know, you've got to chance your arms sometimes and, um, and risk upsetting some people with. But you've, you know, you've got to have a a good reason for doing so. Yeah. So 40 years of programming, uh, a wonderful archive now of voices [01:55:00] and stories, probably many, many of the people are are no longer with us. A lot of them are dead. Yeah, because we tended to, especially in the early days. Concentrate with oral histories on people who are a bit older. You know, they were talking about the Boer war, first World war Depression. Um, so, yes, they're all gone. So when you look at that kind of, um, kind of legacy of the programme what what are your thoughts? I'm I'm quite pleased, [01:55:30] even proud, that I've been able to, um, by just keeping at it, not by doing anything brilliant, but by just slogging away week after week, year after year, that I've been able to build up or contribute to an archive which it's in in audio terms, you know, reflects New Zealand's social history. Um, you know, that's that's got to be better than a poke in the eye with a blunt stick or a [01:56:00] sharp stick or whatever. Um, so I do get satisfaction from that. Um, I don't know What else. Really? It's, um it's been pleasurable. I mean, I. I can't say that it's been a slog in the sense of, you know, it's been wake up on a Monday morning and don't want to go to work. It's not been like that. I've been I've been very, very lucky in the in the job. I did, and the other thing is serendipity. [01:56:30] Just being there at the right time, when the portable tape recorder was just coming into its own and having the whole first half of the 19th century just lying there waiting to be, um, mined. I mean that you have to be bloody lucky to do that. And also having a teacher. Like who I learned my craft from, um, hop, still going in his eighties was still in contact a lot, but hop was a superb [01:57:00] um Well, not so much teacher, but he, uh, he embraced anyone who was interested in radio and interested in his kind of radio and would give you any help you needed. And I had that I was a greener than I was cabbage looking when I first started in in in documentary work, Even though I've been in radio. Um um, 20 years. Uh, well, not 20 but, um, whatever. I started on radio in 1958. [01:57:30] I started in spectrum in 1972 but, um, yeah, just, uh I was just lucky. And, um, you know what a great job to have had over all those years. That and the other thing, too, is that we were allowed freedom. Um, hot was highly respected and people looked up to his work. And then gradually, I was able to take on a similar [01:58:00] mantle and, um, have the freedom and the money in tight times. Um, the administrators, people like Peter Downs, head of national radio, and and others Beverly Waco had the confidence and saw a value of what we were doing and therefore kept us funded, and we weren't made redundant. So you've got to be grateful for that, too. Yeah, we've been talking for, [01:58:30] um, a couple of hours and you've gone through a whole range of things to do with with how to record and edit, uh, for for radio. And I'm just wondering in summation, Um, do you have any final, uh, tips or ideas? Well, this kind of work interviewing or documentary work, however you wish to describe it or whatever part of it you work in is essentially a craft. It's a bit like making [01:59:00] a it's a bit like a cabinet maker, a carpenter, or, you know, it's not a high art form, although at its best it can approach that. But it's a practical skill, and it means that it's essentially a skill of doing so. It's a bit like riding a bike. If you sat at a table and swatted up all the the points that I've raised we've raised today and then thought at the end of it, right? [01:59:30] I've learned all that. Therefore, I'm a a producer, an interview or whatever. Then you couldn't be further from the truth. In fact, you you it's not the theory behind all this. It's the practise. It's the doing. It's the riding, the bike falling off, getting on again, riding up and down Dale and doing a fair kill. Me. So So you know. The more you do, the better you get at it. And there's no other way of getting good at it, other than practising [02:00:00] other than doing, that's the only way you'll get this brain divide into the clinical and the what we discussed. And and and of course, a lot of this experience. When we talk about experience, it's really about hunch. Hunches are not logical. They don't emerge from a particular argument or a formation of thought. They're just something that emerged from having done a lot of it, [02:00:30] and some of us are probably better at it than others. But, you know, experience is about developing that second sense of what's right and how to do things. That's part of it, too. But essentially, you know, get on your bike and start peddling and really keep peddling for 40 years, and you, you you'll only get better.

IRN: 594
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/qwu_documentary.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003985
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089279
TITLE: Queen of the Whole Universe documentary
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Bell-Allen; Alison Mau; Andreas Derleth; Campbell Gordon; David Reeves; Ed Jenner; Jennifer Hills; Johnny Givins; Jonathan Smith; Kevin Baker; Maggie Munford; Pauline Wood; Sarah Boocock; Shaughan Woodcock; Steve Farrow
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Alison Bell-Allen; Alison Mau; Andreas Derleth; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Auckland; Australia; Campbell Gordon; David Reeves; Ed Jenner; Gay Auckland Business Association (GABA); Jennifer Hills; Johnny Givins; Jonathan Smith; Kevin Baker; Maggie Munford; Pauline Wood; Queen of the Whole Universe; Sarah Boocock; Steve Farrow; arts; drag; gay; performance; photography; theatre
DATE: 21 July 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Aotea Centre, 50 Mayoral Drive, Auckland
CONTEXT: A documentary that follows participants in the last Queen of the Whole Universe beauty pageant. More interviews with the participants can be found here.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I think it's a lot like wearing a mask for a lot of people because or even after my family told me they didn't recognise me, my mom said she only recognised me because of the dress. Um, when you put on any costume, it changes how you feel. But something that's that big transformation. It's almost like a feeling of freedom. Mike Todd [00:00:30] Tony Liz, Jeremy Maggie, Andre Ash, Jackie Evan, David FR, Ed Dane, Trevor Rob Campbell, John Michelle Boys Mel Charlotte [00:01:00] Cascade Anton, David James Jerry, Ronnie, Wendy, Phoebe OK, that's us. Hey, hey, Thanks, guys. Right. Tomorrow night during the show, we're going to be making five announcements. Some of you won't hear them because you'll be off stage. So I thought I'd give the five announcements to you now so you know what they are. First one, I can confirm that [00:01:30] we've definitely raised 40,000. OK, true, I can confirm that this is the largest audience we've ever had. I can confirm that we will break the Guinness world record that we see right. The majority of people are not, [00:02:00] um do not do drag elsewhere do not do any sort of performance, so This is really this is the one special moment, but they love it. They embrace it. And we take everyone, um, regardless of size, shape, sexuality, gender orientation. Uh, we we're not worried about that. It's very inclusive. So we've been a safe place for heterosexual people who support the cause or support the charities. That we're supporting HIV charities is what we support positive, uh, women body positive [00:02:30] and the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. So, um, that's always been an ethic that we we want to promote safe sex and the message of, you know, of of health for people living with HIV and prevention of HIV. So, um yeah, the money is raised. That's where it goes. So people who are supportive of that cause and either have, uh, a supporter of the gay community at large, or maybe even have a son or a daughter who's gay. They've been in the show, have been have strong contribution, [00:03:00] and it's a safe place to be no one. You know, no one gets a rough time. We don't question people about why they're there. So we've had everything from transverse sites to cross dresses, drag queens. Um uh, heterosexual mothers, um, guys who who just would like the idea of, for the first time ever, dressing up in a frock and and doing a show being part of a show. So really, um, women dressing as muscle boys, which is fine and boys dressing as girls and and even people sometimes being a girl one [00:03:30] year and the muscle boy the year yet the next year. That's just great. Hello. Oh, I've just done. I'm Miss Belgium. I'm an And I've just done head gear of nations. I've got the mannequin piss, which is the famous, um, statue from Brussels. And, um, on the night, he's gonna be peeing on the front audience. So I've saved that for tomorrow. And this is me, my dresser. She's She's been helping [00:04:00] with the show. And here's my, uh, Miss Barley high sharing my dressing room. I just gotta carry on. Thank you. There's construction of all of your costumes and your head gear, which, uh, the headgear especially, can be a little bit of work. Some of it's very, very impressive. Um, there's a lot of time that goes into rehearsals, especially coming up to the end towards the show. Two rehearsals a week. If you are an Act two girl or you're working with an Act two girl, there's more on top of that for [00:04:30] their own performance. So had you done drag before? No, I never done drag before. Had you done any kind of performance? No. Um, I was one of those kids who always wanted to, but I went to a rather large all boys school and the drama group. There was very, very small and very separate from everybody else, and it just never sort of got into it. It was more the geek group at school. But, you know, I thought, Why not? When else am I gonna get the chance to be on stage in front of 2000 people? [00:05:00] OK, so it is two metres long about a metre 40 high. It's the Beatles Yellow Submarine album cover Yellow Submarine and in the front is a large porthole. So it sits on my head and I look out through the porthole and I'm wearing sixties inspired um, go go girl garb. And I have one of the Beatles with me on stage, which [00:05:30] is pretty groovy. Um, I'm Angelina Jolly fish, Miss Atlantic ocean. And, um, one of my issues is I have crabs. Crabs? Yeah. It's probably the most fun community event. You know, um, that I've ever been involved in just because it's so diverse. And I just get really excited by what? How it all [00:06:00] shapes up and what people do and what they bring to it. The love they bring to it and the fun they bring to it and the camaraderie they bring to it. Um, and and just working with the collective. You know, I think you've got about, um, 35 to 40 or 50 people on stage, you know, including, um, all of the performers. And we usually have, like, our dresses and volunteers and stage crew. Uh, probably another. You know, 60 or so people behind the stage and it's all working together. [00:06:30] It's a great It's a great, um, atmosphere. Really. And, um, we we it's run professionally, but it's run with with a real sense of fun. So are you one of the backstage helping? Um, as you can see, that huge configuration only learned the other night how to put it together, but we got it takes two of us to do it. Stilts and the skirt and the hat. And, uh, I been helping out for years. Probably half of it. So, yeah, just [00:07:00] being involved with, um, this wonderful, um, group of people. Yeah. Diverse. Because they should work for the as well. So this is one of Egypt, Ellen with the whole body. So he made us in costumes as well. And the head gear and everything else out there. He's a design student. So this is Ellen. Hello. So how long have you been doing this? Or is this your first time? Or this is my I think, its fifth year. The 3rd [00:07:30] 3rd character? Yeah, France last two times went to Auckland, and prior to that was Miss Zambia. Victoria Falls at the table. Yeah, that was when I flew France. The huge number? Yeah, that was great fun. And you're making all these costumes yourself? Yeah. Yeah, we get to the boys. Yeah. OK, Bye. E. They got out and do coming down through [00:08:00] the aisle. So you gonna go and watch? I think it's worth the watch. I was actually really lucky. My family has been very, very supportive of the whole thing. They were a little bit thrown at the beginning. With the whole I'm gonna be in a show dressed as a woman and didn't quite understand what that was about. But after they adjusted to that, my mom actually helped me make all of my costumes. So to start off with, thought we'd go shopping and see if there are any things that we could just buy pre-made. That was very interesting. Um, I remember [00:08:30] going into Greenfield mall with my mother into women's clothing stores and trying on clothes. Yeah, my my family has been amazing. Um, my dad was actually very keen for me to do Act two this year when I said that I wanted to, um, so he's actually sponsoring me for it. So his or his company is sponsoring me so that we can actually afford to do these things, because obviously I'm, um, just very recently out from being a student, and I'm an apprentice hairdresser, so I don't earn that much money, but yeah, [00:09:00] helping helping out of it. And the family is all sort of pulling together. Do we come forward on the stage, please? Thank you. Please, And gentlemen, please forward on the stage. Thank you, Ladies and gentlemen. It is now time to take a few moments to acknowledge a very special [00:09:30] person. Many years ago, this gentleman had a dream to create a very queer live show to entertain the queer and the straight community alike. His commitment, his dedication has been nothing short of incredible. It has been such a pleasure and an honour to be part of the dream that has entertained thousands of people [00:10:00] over the years, not to mention the world breaking records. Of course, we are talking about no other than Mr Jonathan Smith, our creator. Three cheers for Jonathan Smith. You it has [00:10:30] our audience is probably about 30 or 40% gay community and probably 60% wider community, heterosexual community. And and that's pretty consistent, too. It's sort of it's fun and and not in your face. We're not We're not beating any drums. We're just celebrating a lot of different things within our community aesthetic, you know, and and, uh, we we we get a full house, and so we make the most of it. I mean, that's our That's our one night to make the money that we need to make for our for our, you know, charity. [00:11:00] And, um, we do have you got any idea how loud it's gonna be? OK, there's something I say to people, which is when this curtain goes up, it's like the audience are trying to pull you into the house and people I remember people looking at me and thinking, What the hell is he talking about? But you would experience that they actually want a piece of you. And I tell you what, This is gonna be a real really loud audience, so be prepared for it. It's gonna be bloody loud, really [00:11:30] loud, the loudest we've ever had. And the acoustics in here are even better. Which means you're gonna hear it. Yeah, so enjoy it. Because it's the whole universe. And because we're really inhabiting a fantasy realm, we've had everything from Fantasy Island, uh, Miss Antarctica, um, out of planets, missus. So and Miss Venus And and, uh So there's there's characters, Miss Atlantis, uh, that are just totally [00:12:00] possible and fit within the genre in their own unique way. The boundaries can go in any direction if people want to take it there. And we had um, just thinking from last year's, um, pageant. Um, Miss Samoa was, um, two fell for a sofa, and she loved it. She loved that name and all her friends do. And she is so on. So it was perfect. She she could totally get away with it, too fat to fell off her. So and, um, miss Transylvania Nora [00:12:30] vane just, you know, plays on little names. And, um, these are more wrestling. And famously, miss India, who won, uh, miss that year was, uh, Miss Iona de and we had, um uh, Trinidad and Tobago were a contestant, and they were Siamese twins. Joined together at the hip, and, uh, they got through to the final. But then we found out to be fakes because they were actually masquerading as twins and they were found to be joined at the [00:13:00] hip by device. And that was, uh, unlocked. And they were kicked out of the show. And, you know, sometimes you say the audience goes, Oh, you know, like I wanted her to get through. It's like, No, Well, you can't say no, it's not going to happen, But it isn't going to happen, is it? But, um but there is. There is a, uh, an element of true competition, isn't there? Yeah, there are. There are There is a small group of people who are who are committed in advance to be, um, Act two finalists. [00:13:30] And they have to be because they've got to do, um, you know, they truly are the competition part of the show. So that is built in there. The audience doesn't know who's going to really be those ones. So at the beginning of the large, um, production opening number, all the girls are there, and the and the muscle boys and, um, you don't know who's going to be going through that, too. And that's fun, that's all. And the elimination process happens. And then we come down to our last performing ones, and they usually have to do a special [00:14:00] a special fashion parade, an interview question, and then a five minute performance piece, which is judged by, uh, we have a judge panel in the audience Celebrity judges. And and, uh, that's a true competition. Yeah. Oh, that was the same time, my friend Diana, who is, as I say, she's my creator. She was doing an art course at Rutherford College. Um, and it was like that first year of [00:14:30] when you go to university and you do your first year of art and you find out where which which you want to study. And there were three TS or something. It was truth, transformation and something about that. Anyway, she chatted with me and she said, What about the transformation from you from Ed into a drag queen? You know, the truth of HIV aids And, um so I said, Yeah, fine, I'll I'll I'll do it. [00:15:00] So she did this amazing study. I've got this lovely book she did of me on the sewing machine and picture of just my leg, my hairy legs and then in stockings, on the shoes. And and And then the last picture at the end was, um, Ophelia, Ophelia Dyke. That's who I was as Miss Holland. Um, and it's interesting because even though you know I'm an openly gay man, have been and love dressing up and all this [00:15:30] Diana really had to fight with me because it's the only time I feel Butch is. When I put a dress on. I just feel like a man in a dress. I said, Oh, you know. And when she was taking all these photos and things, she's saying So you know, you you know, And she sat me down and of course, I think I was about 58 then And she said, What you've got to remember is you're not a 28 year old woman. You're [00:16:00] a bloody good looking 58 year old woman. I said, You're right, you're right. My shoulders went back and good on you, but it was really, really interesting. I found it. Really? As I say, I just felt just like a bloke in a dress. I just felt so butch. I don't think I could ever be butch. It's mid afternoon. We're getting here to set up, [00:16:30] and, uh, the show is on tonight. How are you feeling, Jonathan? I'm actually feeling really relaxed, but you know what it's like The minute you get in here, there's just things bombarded at you. Where's this? Where's that? Where's this? So I always think of the last week, the last week of the show. Like I get the show ready a week, a week beforehand, get everything done. And then my last week I think of as sort of my troubleshooting week just putting out fires and dealing with that sort of thing. So, no, I'm good. I'm relaxed. So we're just going to warm them up. Now, we we've got no [00:17:00] no feedback. We did all that last night, so that means it's just a really positive thing. We start on and we'll get them to do the opening routine just to loosen up a bit. And we normally play around with them a bit. So we tease them and play, You know, those sort of things. Then we're gonna do the POY dance because the POY dance wasn't good last night. They weren't lip syncing. Um, so we'll chase that up, uh, do the finale, and then they can all go off and have their shaves and showers and get ready for makeup. And then the two girls, um, we'll run their performances, Um, [00:17:30] till about four o'clock. So I'm feeling good. We're ready. We sold even more seats. We're selling them every minute, So we're gonna have a very full house. Very full house. Could I have the backstage workers on stage, please? I wanna talk to you all backstage workers. Thank you. The one thing I'm going to tell you all, but particularly backstage workers, including yourselves, do [00:18:00] not become involved in the show. When you're not on, don't get involved. You must not start to become emotionally part of this show. If you're in the wings, your job is to do your backstage job and keep an eye on it. Technically, click it over in your head. Do not become involved. And if you're in the wings waiting to go on again, don't become emotionally involved with what's happening on the stage. [00:18:30] Your job is to show these people out here who have paid, I hope, $100 a seat to actually see you perform. Don't think Oh, gosh, this is great. What's going on? You can't do that, OK, that's all I wish to say. And I hope you have a very happy dress rehearsal. OK, you. Hello, everyone. Um, can you please all get into your places [00:19:00] for the bow at the very end? Because I just want to go over that because the timing wasn't right for everyone. So the Act two girls and Buffy and Bimbo are in the front. Can you all go from where you do the arms up, Arms down Hippy hippy, hippy hip Do the last lot of that Ready So the end of your dance and arms go up arms go down Hip, hip, hip, hip Walk [00:19:30] round 234 Imagine that was the last time and arms go up and then you take your bow and then arms go up and then you take your bow and post. Now you hold the pose for 101 102 103 the audience are going wild And then you'd all take three steps back. But hang on. Before you do that, be aware that the people at the back might be close to the steps. So you may need to go up the steps [00:20:00] off you go and walk. 123 and another pose. Then you wait for the curtain to bounce. It goes back up. Then you watch Jonathan and you would all go arms Go up and then you take your bow and then the arms go up and take your bow and make up pose and the curtain may bounce again. That whole thing may happen a couple of times. Let's do that again, please. [00:20:30] Most of the shows I work on deal with professional dancers and actors. And so, um, working with people who are not trained dancers has been just, you know, really refreshing. Um, obviously, it brings its own challenges with it, because there was a lot of choreography to get through. Um, and so we had to try and work quite fast at the beginning, which for non dancers can be a bit overwhelming. But everybody has been absolutely amazing. And to watch them have the journey from the first, you [00:21:00] know that first rehearsal, Um, right through to what we see now in the final minutes of rehearsing before the curtain goes up tonight. It's just amazing. And I'm feeling so excited. I. I mean, my job's sort of complete now, so I'll be in the audience tonight watching everybody, Um, which is also hard, because usually I feel like jumping up and counting out loud, which I'm not allowed to do. Jonathan's given me strict instructions, but, um, yes, the choreographer's job is over now, and it's up to the dancers to go out there and just have [00:21:30] a blast tonight. What's your most favourite thing about the queen of the whole universe? Um, definitely the fantastic people that I have come to work with who, a lot of whom have now become my friends. And, um, it's just so lovely to be welcomed by such an amazing group of people and the, um, community pulling together and and doing this sort of event and I, I feel privileged to be a part of it. Oh, my God. It's going really well. Um, I think it's a It's a luxury [00:22:00] to have, um, technical rehearsals just a few hours before the show. Um, and I think what it does is it picks our energy up. Um, it gives us that that, um, last run through and they're going really? Well, guys, Excuse me, guys. How do you feel about that? Off to make up? Um, what is it? It's about three hours, three hours from show time [00:22:30] and to see you. So we've just finished our final run through what we call a dry run. So it's without costumes, but we still did all the scene changes and ran. Ran the main act to make sure everything flows right. So what stage we're at. It's called the calm before the storm, so we have about two or three hours before the utter madness starts again. [00:23:00] So in that 2 to 3 hours, we have a chance to get some food. If there's any technical issues on stage, such as lighting changes or any touching up on scenery or even moving wigs up to the stage, that happens now, Um, we have had just a couple of things where people have had to go for acupuncture because of their headdresses have been quite heavy, and it's it has impacted on on their spines. So we [00:23:30] have to think of that. Also, there's been a few nails have been broken. A couple of sequins have come off. I just had to quickly fix a POY before, um, which is at the end of act one, but I managed to get that done. Um, yeah, so it's all been good. Everyone's coming together, so it will be a great show tonight, So looking forward to it, hold up because there's such a large crew 35 drag queens, to be exact. We do the makeup progressively, so in the room we [00:24:00] have brow block stations. We've got a base station, and then you go through and have your cheeks and lips done. And then you come to the last section, which is eyes and brows. So there's lots of moving around in the room for the models. 35 drag queens. How long does that take? Well, we've got three hours, and there's other things thrown on top of us as well. We've got muscle boys to do up. We've got Cleopatra. We've got somebody that needs to be made really dark. So yeah, it's [00:24:30] not just standard makeup. At the moment. We're getting rid of my eyebrows. I also I got my, um, triple D cuts on ready. And then once this is on, it's it's all go. It's, um, here tucking, dressing, G strings, panty hose, the works. Um, last night when, uh, Jonathan, before we started, um, technical rehearsal. [00:25:00] Uh, Jonathan kind of gave us a couple of real life examples of, um where the money goes that, um, that the show, um, raises and kind of brought at home the importance of why we're doing it and what we're doing it for. And I mean, we're all doing it for fun and different personal reasons. And, um, you know, I've always wanted to be on stage, but never mentioned it being a frock. But, um, yeah, no, I just brought it home. The importance of what we're doing and why we're [00:25:30] doing it. And, um, how it's impacting and affecting other people's lives, which is absolutely amazing. So, Micky, how's it going? Good. Nervous now? Yeah, Um, bit of butterflies, you know, because, uh, yeah, I always do. But then once the curtain goes up, it's fantastic. You know, when you hear all the noise and the crowd, it's wonderful and all this is it. It was all part of it, you know, It goes so quickly, [00:26:00] I it it's all over in a flash. And then tomorrow it's like, take a bit of a dip because it's been going on for so long now, with rehearsing and everything. So no, it's fantastic. It's gonna be a good show. Final show for Jonathan. We'll do our utmost and our best for him. But, um, now this is the next part to make up the transformation of everybody. That's so funny. Um, I originally was going to be an act two girl this year [00:26:30] and I was gonna be Miss Candyland. And her name was going to be KENDY Kane, and she was gonna have, like, a Southern Texan accent. Oh, yeah, of course she did. She was she was going to be. Hey, y'all, My name is candy Candy like your lollipop. I'm gonna make you call my friends in Texas and just say what you just said and I'm gonna hang up and not explain it. I'm glad you guys for for a second we get done here [00:27:00] we are covering the brows that with foundations on it looks like there's no eyebrows there, so we can draw them higher for more makeup. And I hate to admit my face look bigger. And I hate to say, in my early years of doing makeup, I did the same thing to myself and I'm a girl. I was like, more room for makeup. Why not? For me, the biggest point in the transformation is usually the first time. Uh, I was running a little bit late, just with me getting ready. I bought [00:27:30] a pair of eyelashes and one of them was broken and they were very big eyelashes. So I spent a very long time in makeup with him trying to fix that. Um I. I was running so late that when we had the final rehearsal on the stage, which is supposed to be the final dress rehearsal, everyone's supposed to be ready or nearly ready. I was. My makeup was half done. I had one eyelash on and I was only wearing my jeans surrounded by everyone, and I was pretty much in full drag. So I just remember running full speed down the stairs, got my makeup done, ran back up to my dressing [00:28:00] room. I didn't even have a chance to look in a mirror while I got dressed. But then I got my Julie on, grabbed my wig, turned around, looked at the mirror and just sort of stopped because I just couldn't recognise myself. It's just such a It's like a shock, seeing that you can look so different. You can go back because I know how you like your crosses this thing. [00:28:30] I think that looks fantastic and we'll just pin it. Are you happy with that? Yeah, I managed to fracture my ankle about 12 days ago, which unfortunately means my availability to do some of the dance routines is somewhat limited. So I have to wear a moon boot for the next six weeks, which is rather uncomfortable. But, um, Jonathan's been great and still going to participate in the show where I can, so we're just gonna try and kind of tart it up [00:29:00] and make it a little bit less obvious, and I'll be on stage dancing with crutches. Is this the first queen of the whole university I've done? This will be my fifth show that I've done. So it's, um, yeah, great to be part of it. It's a fantastic show, great cause, and it's a bit sad to have it as the last one. So make sure you go out with a bang regardless. And who are you being this year? This year I am Miss Turkey, So I will be a physical turkey for the headgear. So which will, um, hopefully get a few last? Because I'm not sure whether people [00:29:30] will expect that or not. This is my first show. I've been doing theatre for a fair few years. I was intrigued by the concept of this show simply because it's so different to anything I've ever done before. And so I saw it and thought, this is a challenge. Um, so half of me throughout the entire proceedings from the very first day was going Oh, what are you doing? This is this is drag. You don't do drag. And the other half of me was going Oh, my God. Glitter and secret. And so, uh, this has just been brilliant. So [00:30:00] much fun. Thank you. Hi, I'm Mel. Um, and this is the first year out of about six years that I'm being a QW boy. And I'm really enjoying that experience, getting to wear flat shoes and doing different kind of moves And, um, really grateful to be part of this great experience and for such a great cause. Hi, I'm Wendy, and I've been a part of the show for, I think, maybe five years. And I'm loving being a boy this year with Mel, and I [00:30:30] just love being a boy every year because the atmosphere is so great and they're always an awesome bunch of people. And we get to have a lot of fun because we get to share a dressing room. So few antics and, uh, few mischievous things that go on. But, hey, that's all part of it. That's right. It's the boys room. You see what I mean? So, um, yeah, just really looking forward to the show. Love the cause and being awesome to be a part of it. I'm David, and this is my first show, so I have no idea what to expect, but [00:31:00] it went bloody well last night, but, um, so it was great. I've been really, really enjoyed all the rehearsing and getting to know everybody. And then I had forgotten the the excitement that comes just minutes before, you know, the all that work that goes into it, and then it's all over in a flash. So there may be a bit of a down tomorrow. I don't know. We'll see. I'm Anton. Um, this is my fourth show, Um, a little bit sad, because, um um you know, I I've missed a [00:31:30] few because I live up in Melbourne, so but it's great to be here. And, um, to be able to support Jonathan and the cause And to be part of the last show. Yeah, and be seeing everyone again. It's great. My name is Cascade I, also known as Mr Whippy. That's my stage name normally, and I think that this event is a really significant event in the queer community. In fact, probably the most significant commit in terms of [00:32:00] people joining together in terms of recognising why we're doing it for and as a performer. It's the most important thing I've ever done. Now there's just a sense of like, seeing everyone and you can see the energy is really ramped up a level because it's kind of like it's just so nice and everyone turns up and there's all the little final finishing touches which start to to kind of complete the picture. So, um, I'm really excited about it. I'm so excited. It's gonna be fun. And there's always that thing of, like what [00:32:30] will happen, you know, like will there anything that happens, Dodge or someone fall over or, um, you know, all of that stuff is kind of fun seeing how it's going to pan out and stuff. I miss Spain this year, So, um, there are a lot of frills involved. Some very, very big dresses planned. Um, the best performances from what I I feel from what I've seen are the ones that do have a little bit of a storyline going on or a feel that goes through them, [00:33:00] and it's just trying to create that in five minutes. But without it being too, too much of the same thing, you need to have changes and costume changes because the audience loves that. One of the greatest ones I saw was, um I was helping out with Actually was Miss France, and I think he had seven costume changes. And that's not including the backup dancers. So it's just it gives it another dimension. Miss Spain is a complete family [00:33:30] team that put that together. His father built all the set. His mother has done all the costuming. In fact, I went to a meeting with with Campbell, who's Miss Spain. He's sitting there, his mother's there and his father's there. And, um, Campbell was talking about his words and his costuming, and his father was talking about how he's building the towers, and his mother was talking about how she's making me do outfits and I'm sitting there thinking, Wow, Mum and Dad sitting there talking about this with Campbell [00:34:00] and thinking This is what the show is about. I'm thinking back to when I was coming out and, you know, could I have done that with my parents? No way. And I think that's just an acknowledgement of the show as well. When you say Johnny, when you see that and it's like Andre Andre, who played Miss Japan and Miss Germany, his father built all the set everything. Yeah, I remember the one of the first ones I came to was when Ed Ed did the the flags and [00:34:30] the English need a whole whole rows of people who were his supporters. He made 100 and 20 flags of that show, all sitting in the front row this year. This year, the same thing. He's Miss Belgium. The first three rows he bought, I think he bought 100 and 60 tickets. And the 1st 34 rows are all Miss Belgium, all with flags. And he's told them that he goes through to act too well, we know something happens. So Kevin and I, we're gonna get booed, but we [00:35:00] gonna get booed off the stage when we disqualify this Belgium, the front four rows are gonna go absolutely berserk. If you've never had, like an audience cheering at you before, it's just the most. It's very energising, kind of feeling. It just makes you feel very like all of your hard work is paid off and it's valued and these people appreciate it. No, they might not necessarily know how much hard work you put in, but it's got value. Hi, everyone. [00:35:30] Welcome everyone. It's all come on stage. Doesn't matter what state you're in. They all get a bit chatty now. They become the, um, the performers that they're designed to be. And as you can see, everybody looks stunning. I never know who I'm talking to because I can't recognise them with all their outfits on. But, uh, the, you know, the show is about to get underway. It's, [00:36:00] um I'm sure there's the audiences are starting to gather on the outside. Let's look for a great night to New Zealand. The contestant of Queen of the Whole Universe. [00:36:30] Oh, darling, we we came last year to Wellington. We're from Australia, and we came for the, um the, uh um Asian Pacific Out gays. And we love the show so much we had to come back there is. Shut up! I'm camera here. There's 14 of us from Australia. Just come over for the weekend and watch this wonderful show. We think it's fantastic. And [00:37:00] we were down in Wellington for the Gay games. The game and what we really want to know. Is that what we really wanna know? What has happened to Miss Australia? We are most upset. Didn't you hear us? We screamed and screeched our fucking tits off. I mean, our ordinary tits off. Uh, because Miss Australia went home. So some bloody little Kiwi bastard upset her. And we're not real happy about that. And we were here last year. Got [00:37:30] disqualified last year. We were most upset about that too. Do you have any other favourites with City? It's gotta be. He's a he's a priest. Believe it or not, it is. He is gonna be officially in this country. That's right. Once they go outside the borders, it's all off. And and also, of course, Miss Belgium because we're going to the [00:38:00] games in Antwerp next year. My name is Jennifer Hills. I am married to just actually recently married last Friday to the emcee of the show. one of the M CS Brad Hills. That is my husband. And that's what brings me to the queen of the universe. Yeah. Wow. So just married. So is this your honeymoon? Yes. This is This is our honeymoon, which I know seems a little different, but I couldn't be happier. I think it's very exciting to be a part of this. And even just to be able to be here and see everything and actually [00:38:30] get to watch my husband perform and see him, and you know what he does? I think it's very exciting. My name is Andy, and I got involved because the organisers asked me, um, if I would be available to do, um, one part of the show as a guest appearance and award two prizes. So what kind of guest appearance are you doing? Um, I'm the current Mr Gay in New Zealand and Mr Gay World. What do you think? Something like the of the whole universe is important. It is, um, showing the variety of gay life. It is such a wide spectrum. [00:39:00] We have from very butch bears to very feminine queens. And I think I think it's just what it what? It makes us so unique. So I I'm really happy to be part of it. Have you ever done drugs yourself? No, I haven't. I tried walking in high heels once. Almost both. Both. Both my feet are not trying anymore. I started my involvement with queen of the whole universe when it first started in 2004 as a an MC and I was later. [00:39:30] Obviously I did something right because I was later moved to the judging panel and I was a judge for several years and now head judge, which seems an extraordinary responsibility. But there you go. Fake it till you make it. What are you looking for as a judge? It's an overall experiential thrill. This pageant, um and and the girls have worked so hard on it on all parts of their performance, and you have to look at everything Overall, I think the important thing is not to be [00:40:00] too dazzled by the sequence, as they say, not to be too swept away with props and, uh, audio visual stuff. But to actually see through that and look for the talent on stage. So if you take that attitude, you can easily see when one of the girls is just stepping through a routine. And the choreography is perhaps not that strong. Um, And you you look for the real performance, the overall performance. And what about the audience? Can you describe how the audience reacts? [00:40:30] I love this audience because it's a really broad range of people. Last time it was in Auckland, which was in November 2010 at Interval, I ran into two gorgeous girls who'd left their husbands in Hamilton something and come up to Auckland for a girls weekend. They'd seen this on a website and bought tickets just because they thought it was interesting and they were having a fabulous time. They absolutely loved it. And I think this is the the kind of event that brings us all [00:41:00] together and breaks down barriers and I. I reevalue it for that. Ok, ladies and gentlemen gentlemen, please welcome back for the last time. Our four finalists Miss Miss Bay, Miss Miss And Sunday, your winner of freedom of the whole universe. 2012 receives a prize package with over $4000 including $2000 [00:41:30] in cash. And is there was no controversy here. This, uh, winner won by a long way. And, you know, you wanted her to win because she's spoken hot. Miss [00:42:00] Stop. Hello? I thought it was astounding. In fact, I thought it was outstanding, which is a cross between outstanding and astounding. And I thought they were They were amazing. And I loved it every single second. It was the most wonderful, outrageous fun show. Yeah, I just It was very sad as the the last one. So but, um, I've been to a few of them, and, uh, I always supported a lot of fun. Well, [00:42:30] it was quite fabulous. It was more lavish and a little more extreme than than than I was expecting. This is my first time. A lot of effort by a lot of people. Yes. I love the mix of, um, community and sort of basic. Um, it was it was sort of down home, and it was so I mean, yeah, my my cheeks are really stretched from laughing, and I was yelling I was in the front front row and it was just really funny. So it was. Everybody's [00:43:00] smiling when they come out. It's really good. The crowd just went nuts at a couple of places when we did the there, you know? And, uh, that was it was special. And, you know, just the the way they were getting into it, Uh, like they were saying when the curtain went up, it was just awesome. And you just hear this wall of sound in the darkness, and it was just just absolutely incredible. And, um and all the colours of all the girls and their dresses, you get to see sparkling red everywhere and and the energy from the crowd. It was just amazing. I I loved it. Absolutely loved it. Amazing. [00:43:30] And the crowd was so good. They were so supportive as soon as we started. So as soon as that happened, you sort of think Yes. Yeah. No, it was great. It was a really good show. I think Jonathan and Kevin are really pleased. Yeah, no. Now what? Now I know to find something else to keep me occupied in a few years. Geriatric on B. That's good. [00:44:00] We had a great audience capacity audience at the centre, and, um, we have just had a rocking good night, haven't we, Michelle? This is Hello. How are you doing? Did you enjoy the show? She drove up from after work at four o'clock to make it here for the show. That's what I call dedication. It does see this one rocking his stuff on stage. He's really into it. [00:44:30] Yeah. So the satisfied punter, Michelle is the first time in the show Contestants. So just brilliant and such. Good spirit, Good dancer as well. And she's got the moves. Thanks, darling. She's got the moves, and, um, she she helped us, Uh, Spain win. Ah, we have a competition tonight, Gareth. We did. [00:45:00] And, um, you just never know on the night people lift their game. Incredibly. They just give that performance to the crowd. The judges see it, and that's what it's all about. I tell you what. That's got to be the best show. There's no doubt about it. And what a way to finish it after nine years. What a way to go. What a way to go. We just didn't get nervous. And, um, you know, we try not to add, but when you got an audience out there that just wants [00:45:30] and wants and wants, Yeah, we just have to come off the script, and then Brad started to misbehave. And then, of course, we we'd already planned all these sort of one liners, and all of a sudden they all started to come out at once. It was absolutely hilarious. So no good night. Good night. You know, and well done to the 482 girls, too. They did very, very well. Very well. So it's a good night, right? I need to go and see the people upstairs and have a chat to them. How [00:46:00] do you come down from such an intense experience? Yeah, I did find afterwards I was I felt a bit lost. Um, I used to having these rehearsals so often and seeing this group of people every week or twice a week, and then it's just all over. It's a bit of a a sad thing, you know, saying goodbye to everyone. If you had the opportunity on that last performance to, uh, address the crowd in some way, is there anything that you would want to say to them? [00:46:30] Um, I'd want them to take the feeling that they get from the show that feeling of joy and acceptance and there's a huge feeling of love that goes with it and to keep that with them, you know, don't leave it behind and treat everyone else that they come into with that same compassion and happiness that the show brings to people like, I think it's it's amazing just the way that this hugely [00:47:00] diverse group of people and the hugely diverse audience all come together for this one night and everyone has an amazing time and I just wish, you know, the the rest of people's lives could be like that.

IRN: 613
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/positive_women.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003984
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089278
TITLE: Positive Women
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Jane Bruning
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Body Positive; Community AIDS Resource Team; Community HIV Team; HIV / AIDS; Jane Bruning; Jonathan Smith; Kevin Baker; Mark Thomas; Positive Women Inc; Positive Women family hui; Prostitution Reform Act (2003); Queen of the Whole Universe; Torrens Fund; breast feeding; children; community; disclosure; discrimination; education; employment; family; health; health system; homosexual law reform; isolation; needle exchange programme; organisation; parents; prevention; regions; retreats; safe sex; school; stereotypes; stigma; support; women; youth
DATE: 21 July 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Jane Bruning, national coordinator of Positive Women Inc, talks about the history and services offered nationally to HIV+ positive women.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Jane Bruning. I'm the national coordinator for positive women. I've been in that role for eight years now. Um, positive women initially started in 1990 the late 1990. Um, at that time it started because, um, in the eighties really there there was support networks for body positive was available for people living with HIV. But at that time, a lot of the people who were being diagnosed were were gay men. And so the facilities being offered [00:00:30] at the time were very gay men focused. And the women who started to get diagnosed towards the end of the eighties felt that body positive didn't offer the services that they needed that were women friendly. So they started up an organisation for women only. Um, this was helped by car, um, social workers there. And they, um, help the women get the organisation started, and so it really sort of got started in the beginning of 1991. Is the community [00:01:00] AIDS resource team? Actually, they've just changed their name to shiv, um, community HIV team. Um, and they, uh, work out of Auckland Hospital. They have a social worker and nurses, and they work with the infectious diseases clinic up at Auckland Hospital. And so they had two social workers at the time, and they saw the need that there wasn't there wasn't anywhere for women to get together. Um, there were no real services focused for women. So they got some of the women together and and and help them to [00:01:30] get the organisation registered and to get to get momentum to get started. And so in the beginning, it was very much run, um, and led by by the social workers and by non positive people. But over the years, it was slowly handed over to the positive community. And so now it's run by the positive community. What are the big differences between the kind of support or types of support offered, say to gay men as opposed [00:02:00] to other groups with HIV? Yeah, you know, basically, I mean fundamentally, Whether you're a man or a woman living with HIV, you go through the same processes when you're diagnosed. When you when you're learning to cope with it and all the issues around stigma, discrimination, all of that. You know, um, those issues about medications are the same for men and women. But I guess when women change, there are things like, um I mean, women don't go out [00:02:30] into sort of the night clubbing scenes like the gay men do. So the language when you're talking in a group is not the same. OK, so what? Um, you know, um, when you're sitting with a mixed group, sometimes the men actually don't feel comfortable talking about what they would normally be doing because there's women in the group and then women don't understand that. And and if women are talking about, um, you know, issues around pregnancy and so there's just different issues in that regard And so [00:03:00] I'm not saying that it can't be, you know, there there are a lot of similarities, but But, you know, women are different and have different needs. And women like to sit together and to talk and to chat, and they they want to do different things. And so, um, so our services are just very much more focused towards women's needs in that regard. So what are the services? The services that we offer? We, we, um, offer a retreat once a year for women, which is fully funded so nobody has to pay. And, um, that's [00:03:30] a a national retreat. So women from all over the country can come to Auckland. They come for a, um it's a three day, three day residential retreat. And, um, at that retreat, it's sometimes the only time that women get to meet other positive women when we have some women who would be the only positive women only woman living with HIV in her region. So she has no no support. And so, by having them retreated, it offers peer support. Um, they're able to get together. We have sessions where they can sit and talk [00:04:00] about what's going on for them in their lives. And these are facilitated by by counsellors from the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. We offer, um, Mark Thomas from the HIV Special. Uh, HIV clinic at Auckland here will come and talk and about medications. We'll have someone come and talk about, um, safe sex for for for positive women. Um and then we also have some fun. You know, it's about just, um, sitting around and chatting. And that's what women love to do. I I find in the retreats [00:04:30] where all the work really happens is around the meal times and around the sitting around times where they can just chat. Women are really good chatters, and they just love to chat. And so that's That's one of the services we offer. We also offer a family every two years. Um, that's due to funding. We just can't do it every year. And that's an opportunity where where the women can bring their partners, they bring their Children whether they're positive or negative. Um, and you know, for some people they might choose to bring their grandmother or their sister or their father [00:05:00] or or or all of them. And the idea is then to offer also support for people affected because it's, you know, you don't live in in with HIV in isolation and often, um, family members don't quite understand what it's like. So the family who is every two years and that's an opportunity for everyone to get together. And, um, we have different, um, workshops for different people to to go to different things. It might be about positive and negative couples, um, might be about getting pregnant, [00:05:30] um, and about Children, um, how to disclose to schools about Children so we do workshops and and I guess helping people to to live with HIV and how to how to live well with it. We have, um, a community house, which is in Auckland. Um, we are a national organisation, but the the biggest population of people living with HIV and women also is in Auckland. It makes [00:06:00] sense for us to be based here. The funders are here, you know, um, which does leave some of the regional women a little bit more isolated. Um, we do have an 0 800 number so that people can call the office, and it doesn't cost them. So if they ever want to just talk, um, they can do that. And we also put on an after hours phone number on the on our phone line so that they can call me or any of the staff after hours if they need. We do a bimonthly newsletter, um, for all the members so that they can keep in touch [00:06:30] with what's going on. We run regional gatherings so positive women will pay $20 to each woman and, um, so that they can get together in the regions and maybe go out for lunch or go out and do something together. Recently in Wellington, they went out and did a a pot luck dinner. They went to one of the women's houses, and they all just went around and put the food together. Um, try to do, um, sort of road shows. It's a strange word for it, but try to visit the regions at least once a year so that, you know, you can give one on one support [00:07:00] we provide, um, resources. Um, we have some excellent resources, um, around HIV and pregnancy. Um, about, um, another booklet around living with HIV as a woman and sort of women's needs. And so we do do that. Um, And then basically, we do a lot of, um, more in Auckland, I guess, because it's directly, you know, it's easier to contact us. Um, it's psychosocial work. Um, we do a lot of we have a social worker, So, um, we do a lot of [00:07:30] women's work. Um, we advocate for milk formula for a lot of our women now are getting pregnant and having healthy babies, but they're not allowed to breastfeed. And, um, as a you know, and milk formula is expensive. It's not subsidised. So we we advocate and trying to find sources for for milk formula. Um, we advocate on behalf of people who have had troubles at work with discrimination or stigma issues at schools. Um, [00:08:00] so and and just anything. Basically, if someone has an issue they can call us or a question or or even if they just want to talk, we're only a phone line away and they can contact us. So we just There's a variety of services that we offer. You mentioned isolation a couple of times, and I'm wondering, Do you think HIV positive women are more isolated than, say, gay men in the sense that if you've only got like one woman, that's HIV positive in a region and she doesn't [00:08:30] have any support in that kind of area, do you? Do you find that I? I think so. I mean, I don't want to negate that. Gay men are not also isolated because I know they can be as well. But I think what happens especially in a bigger city, is there is already a gay community, and there's some sense of community, although there can be stigma and discrimination amongst gay men in that community as well. But there's a sense of community. Whereas, um, like I said, we have one or two women who are the only women living with HIV in their whole town or even [00:09:00] in their whole region. And they may have Children going to school. Their husband is negative. Um, so they're not gonna tell anybody because they're afraid of the impact on their Children. The impact on their husband. Um so yes, I, I think there is, um, incredible isolation. And because, you know, New Zealand is not a high prevalence country for HIV anyway. But it's even less amongst the heterosexual and than it is amongst the gay community. So So there's [00:09:30] still a whole kind of stigmatised thing about If you're a woman and you've got HIV, you must be immorally corrupted or something's wrong with you to and and so there is that whole sort of stigmatised. And yes, I would say women are are quite a lot more stigmatised. And the fear of of telling they're really there are very few women who are who are, um, open about their status in New Zealand. Because of that fear and protectiveness, which I think creates isolation [00:10:00] and other services are often not available. Counselling going to the you know they may not have. In Auckland, we're very, very lucky. And also Wellington and Christchurch, you have very good HIV clinics and, um, services that are used to working with HIV. Whereas if you get a girl or a woman who's in a very small rural area, um, the medical profession there doesn't really understand. They don't have the same, um, ethics around confidentiality, small town kind of mentality. So often women will travel to, you know, from [00:10:30] a small town into a bigger city just to be absolutely not, um so that make sure that no one in their town knows. So, yes, I would say that women do have a lot of isolation. So those and those retreats, they must be quite special times. Yeah, absolutely. And, um, you know, we see that by the increase, especially in the family, every year we get the numbers increase and, um, it it's also interesting depending on the different, um, cultures and nationalities of the women [00:11:00] as well. We find that New Zealand women will come to these events and then go back home to their environments and just get on with it. And I think that's partly due to the fact that they've probably got family support. Whereas some of the, um, like the new migrants and refugees who don't have family support, um will come to the retreats and make very strong friendships and take those friendships outside and continue them and build on them outside of the retreat [00:11:30] areas. And and I think that's quite understandable because they don't have long history of family support here in New Zealand. So how many members do you have? Yeah, we have around 200. Um, you know, we're not, As I said, it's not a, uh, New Zealand is not a high prevalence country for HIV. So there isn't I think you know, the statistics show there is. Since 1985 to now, there has been just over 500 women being diagnosed, But some of those [00:12:00] have died, and some of those have left the country. So we we really don't have an accurate figure in New Zealand of the number of people currently living here with IV and so we can guess possibly with the woman that there may be 400 maybe 3. 50. And so, um, you know, we don't haven't reached all of them by any means. And, um and it's not a high number. And sometimes I find that as a as an NGO, we get kind of caught up in the numbers scheme. Um, yes, [00:12:30] there's not a lot of these people, but that that's really the reason we need to be there because there's not a lot of them and that that increases the isolation that they live with and everyone who lives with HIV. It is quite a different, um, disease socially than just about any other disease. So I do think it it It has its extra complications. And people living with HIV really do need to be supported. When you say a different disease. What? [00:13:00] What? What do you mean, what what kind of things? Well, I mean, it's it's different to cancer, right? I mean, if you had cancer and and you went to work and you told your work colleagues that you had cancer, there would probably be a lot of empathy and support If you go to work and tell people that you've got HIV. There would probably be some nervousness, some apprehension, Some, you know, physical questions, Um, possible discrimination, Um, judgments, Um [00:13:30] and and so it it again increases to that isolation. So people are afraid to tell and often that that, um those perceptions that that are taken by the public are also internalised by the person who's got HIV because they've heard those kind of things before. They get HIV. So when they get HIV, they feel they take that on board. They feel that other people are gonna think that about themselves, and they even start to question themselves whether they are that kind of person. I wonder if it's also like, [00:14:00] um, say in a gay situation or a lesbian situation that that whole idea of coming out where, um, you know, coming out as as an ongoing process, depending on whatever situation you're in, Is that the same with disclosure that you're always thinking Am I going to disclose this? Do I need to do I have to? Yeah, I think that's a perfect analogy, and I think it's very, very similar. Absolutely, very, very similar. You're afraid of the reactions. You don't know who who's going to accept you. You're gonna be rejected. What's you know, What are people gonna think? [00:14:30] What are my family gonna think? I think it's a perfect analogy, and it is very, very similar. And it's often process. It's definitely I've seen it with with women who have, um you know, initially, they may tell, um, just their family. I mean, I know some women who have told nobody absolutely nobody, right, Um and and slowly, as they get, it depends, you know, on the situation. If their parents are very elderly, they might decide not to tell them because they're too old and they don't want to burden them with that, [00:15:00] Um, but often it's a process, and by the time, and it's usually time, I would say it's time it takes that time to get used to it. It takes that time to be comfortable with it, living with it yourself, because that takes a long time as well. Um, and then just often, people Well, I'd say 99% of people living with HIV spend a time of where they they are. They're covering. They're walking around with a mask, Really, that there's this sort of public figure. And then there's all these secrets that they're holding, [00:15:30] and especially with women if they're going to. And it's also, I'm sure, with men as well as that. We've got doctors appointments. You're lying about that, Um, women who have babies who can't breastfeed. They're lying about that. Um, but you know, there's all sorts of constant lies that that are going on. And after a while, when people start to get tired of those lies and slowly, slowly, they'll maybe disclose to to them parents or to close friends. And then the longer that goes on, maybe when the kids have grown up [00:16:00] and they don't have to protect the kids so much, if they're single and they don't have to protect anybody else, um, they start to become more comfortable and will start to speak out publicly. I'm not saying that everybody should speak out publicly. Um, you know, But I What I do believe strongly is that if people shouldn't be afraid to have to speak out, and I think that is definitely there with HIV, people are afraid and they shouldn't have to be afraid. You shouldn't. You know, when you tell someone you have cancer or diabetes or whatever. You're not afraid to tell people. [00:16:30] But when you have HIV, there is a fear because you don't know what reaction you're gonna get. Do you find that there is, um, a bit of a time lag between somebody that's been newly diagnosed and the time that they approach something like positive women? Yes, usually, I mean, there are There are some women who will link into us straight away, but they're not really the That's not the majority. Um, it usually you know, anyone who's been newly diagnosed. [00:17:00] There is just so much confusion going on, and they're trying to accept the whole thing themselves and to sort of straight away be positioned into a support network. It's a bit overwhelming, actually, and and people don't even really understand what a support network is. So So we usually find And we have a really good, um contact with most of the, um, infectious disease clinics. And what we ask them to do is to to mention us to the to the person and to ask the [00:17:30] the the woman if it's OK to give her phone number to us so that we can contact them. And often what we will do is make the initial contact and say, You know, we're here and when you're ready, give us a call and we just make sure that we have their details so that we know they're there and we can keep an eye. And I would say normally it takes about two years, and that's quite common. So they might just kind of tap in from time to time. And then after two years, they might come to a retreat or they might call us and, um, [00:18:00] because they've had gone through all of the emotional stuff themselves. But then they start to want to talk to other people, and they the the isolation starts to set in. So they're ready to talk to other people and and, um and and also going back to the self stigma. Sort of. Sometimes women are have this feeling that a support network for for women living with HIV might be a bunch of sex workers and drug addicts and and people with AIDS that are dying, you know, so they don't. They also have a perception [00:18:30] of that, and it's often, you know, you hear it so many times when they come to the retreat, they sit and they look at everyone and go, Oh, everybody is so healthy and everybody is so normal. And so sometimes it's about getting over that barrier as well. How do you get to those people in in that in that two year period? How how do you let them know that the support there? I mean, you say that you you give them a call. But are there other things that your organisation or other organisations do to help people in that period? [00:19:00] Um, it's a difficult one. I mean, it's it's a voluntary thing. It's not like, you know, it's not compulsory to join, so So So you can't force people and you you need to give people the space um to and the only thing that we just keep, especially the way that we feel we can do it is through the the community HIV team through the the um HIV specialists around the country through the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, just to keep reminding [00:19:30] them that we're there when we feel sometimes that we there could be more of that, um, you know, just to remind people that we're here, um, and to to keep coaching people to join us. But I mean, to answer your question, I mean I. I guess we we're not quite sure what more to do. We We have newsletters, and we, um we don't really advertise. It's it's expensive and there's not a lot of people. So it's It's difficult to to know how to reach those other women. And, um, I guess we just keep [00:20:00] working through working through the medical clinics is because everybody has to go some time through a medical clinic. So that's the way we really try to operate through that. You mentioned, uh, people coming to the etcetera and and and and seeing just normal people. What can you Can you describe the kind of demographic of your membership, you know, in terms of like age and ethnicities? And what kind of people are in your membership? Our membership would. It's about 47% [00:20:30] European or New Zealand kiwis or Europeans? Um, we have 34% now of African migrants, Um, and then the rest would be a mixture of Maori, Pacific island, Asian, um, and other ethnicities. Um, the age group I, I guess, would be majority between 25 and 45. Um, we have, uh, quite a lot of Children. We have about 25 [00:21:00] under under 18. And, um, we we run special, try to run special services for the Children as well, and then a few older than that. But most of them would be between 25 and 45. Actually, I, I would even say up to 50. Yeah, that's sort of we We're getting a lot of a lot of people that are, um, been living longer with HIV. So we're getting a lot more people in their in their fifties. How does something like the recent media attention [00:21:30] about the the child in the creche up the North Island where? Where I think they had to disclose the the rest of the creche. How does that kind of media attention affect your membership? Um, it doesn't really affect our membership. I mean, those that family did become members, so And we did get involved in that in that process. Um, but it highlights why, um, families are so scared [00:22:00] to disclose. It just reinforces to our members that they don't want to disclose and that they have to keep quiet because that kind of attitude happens. And so, in a sense, it just reinforces all of their fears. Um, there were some good outcomes in the end, but it, um you know, and we have had lots and lots of complaints, very similar complaints, but nobody wants to take it out public. So we work behind the scenes at talking to the, um daycares or to the schools or to her, to the employer [00:22:30] and, um, work on a one on one. We often can't even get to the point of of going to the human rights or to the to make an official complaint, because the woman doesn't want to be that public, because you have to come out to really quite openly like that family did to, um, to make those complaints. So things like that really, Um, on one hand, I think the whole, um, scenario was excellent in regards to educating the wider community. It was a shame it took something like that [00:23:00] for it to happen. But I think, um, you know, Campbell Live did excellent work around, um, especially on the second night afterwards, about explaining about HIV and and the whole stigma and discrimination. So So it was a great opportunity for for educating the wider community. But for the HIV community, I think it just reinstill and reinforced their fear about about disclosing their status. What do you think? Works better having a, um, something that was very public like that. So, you know, you built up an educational campaign or [00:23:30] just working in the background very quietly. Do you have any thoughts on which works better? Um, I'm conflicted around it, to be perfectly honest. I guess if I'm if I'm truly and truly honest, the biggest impact would be to have some of the things that public I think it, um, the biggest impact for the wider community. Not the biggest impact for people living with HIV. Um, but it really did raise awareness for a lot of people around the country. And, [00:24:00] you know, ever since I, I go to a lot of talks in schools and to community people, and I get asked about that situation. So it has really raised the awareness. So I guess you know, reality that made a big effect. Um, and like I said, we've worked behind the scenes many times on similar, and it's not. Nobody is the only people that have really, um, gain from it is the people that we are working with directly. Um, so I think we need to have both hand in hand. Um, [00:24:30] there's not many opportunities where someone's prepared to be that public. Um, but it it Yeah, it did raise a greater awareness amongst the general community. Raising awareness is one of the things that the queen of the whole universe beauty pageant does. And, um, this weekend is the 10th and final performance of of the beauty pageant. And positive women are a beneficiary of of some of the funding that's generated through door sales. Can you tell me how [00:25:00] how you became involved with the queen of the whole universe? Well, my my friendship with Jonathan goes back many, many years. Um, he when I first came to, I MH HIV positive myself. And when I first came back to New Zealand, um, Jonathan was running a peer support network, and he was the facilitator. And, um so we got to know each other through that we've worked together on, um, public speaking trainings And so over the years we've we've worked, um, on a number of occasions and become very [00:25:30] good friends. And one of the things I really admire about um, Jonathan and Kevin is that they actually realised that, yes, in New Zealand, it's mostly the gay community that are affected by HIV. But they also saw that actually, women and families are are are also affected and that they are they They are struggling with finances, and they're, um, an unheard voice. And so, um, I think it's about five years ago they approached us and said, We would like to donate some of the [00:26:00] funds from the queen of the whole universe towards positive women, which has been just fantastic. We use the money, um, solely for the for the family who we, um and, um, we take a percentage of every time when we get it. We take a small percentage of that and put it into the to fund. Torrance Fund is for the teen camp. There's a team camp that they do in Australia for 13 to 18 year olds and because we don't have a lot of Children here and and the team camp in [00:26:30] um, Australia has been running for many, many years. Um, we we we send our Children over to Australia, so we pay for their air fares. Um, everything else in Australia is covered, so but it's mostly their air fares, their visas and and insurance and the cost to get them to go over to Australia. So those are the two things that the it's totally it's not spent on any administration. It's it goes straight to the people affected by HIV. And, um, as I said the family is is is every two years, it's very large. [00:27:00] We get over 100 people come to it, and so it's very expensive. And, um, a lot of this year in particular, nearly two thirds of the money through the queen of the whole universe, depending on what we get this time will go towards the, um, paying the cost for the family who are in November. What changes do you see? I'm thinking when you send somebody over to Australia for one of those teenage camps, what changes do you see in the person coming back? It it [00:27:30] makes you really, um it makes me appreciate what I do in my work. It makes me feel very proud. Um, which is not what it's about. But I do. It's It's a time when you see these kids come back. These kids live in total isolation. They go to school, you know, 13, 14, 15, they're going through. Um, you know, puberty. They're looking at girlfriends and boyfriends, and they're told not to tell anybody. So they keep it all to themselves, and they know [00:28:00] they're different. And it's it's difficult enough going through puberty and the boyfriend, girlfriend and whatever relationship, without having an added thing like like HIV, which is sexually transmitted and and so going to something like that. First of all, they don't feel so isolated. They see other people. They see people that have are a bit older, that are in relationships, and so they know that it can happen. Um, and so when often when they go, they they for the first time they're quite meek and mild and and and [00:28:30] timid, and when they come back, they're just exuberant and vibrant and so much extra confidence. And then for those that just go repeatedly, it's almost like, you know, they've got this little gang and they've got this extended gang, which is in Australia, because they make connections with the groups and with the kids in Australia. They keep in touch via, you know, emails and stuff through. So it gives them a little community, and it just boosts their confidence. And it's a huge, um, huge significant benefit for them. Yeah, [00:29:00] the queen of the whole universe is I mean, not only a beauty pageant, but I mean, underlying that is the whole kind of, um, safe sex message. Can you describe to me what that kind of means? Having that kind of exposure to that many people I. I mean, I. I don't think I can can. Actually, I just think it's It's, um I just think what they do is just amazing. It's absolutely phenomenal. What what Kevin and Jonathan do with this queen, and I'm really going to miss it [00:29:30] and not so much in regards to funding for us. I mean that that is a wonderful benefit. But what what they do? Not only do they, um, raise awareness for HIV, but I think they actually also help to normalise and and have greater acceptance of the gay community. so I think it has a double kind of benefit in that regard. Um, and I think it's gonna be really missed. I mean, they've done an amazing job and it's become a bit of an institution here in Auckland. And, um, [00:30:00] as I said, the gay community are respected more as they have become more respected and more understood and has become more normalised through that. And also people are becoming more aware slowly, slowly. Um and I don't know how we're going to fill that gap when it stops. I think it will be a big gap when it's stopped. So I hope he does something else becoming more aware of, um, I guess safe sex messages and HIV and AIDS in New Zealand. I'm wondering what [00:30:30] is the status now of HIV AIDS in New Zealand In terms of you know, what are the biggest issues facing positive women in New Zealand at this time? I think the the biggest issues still facing HIV women but also um even the gay community in regards to HIV would be stigma and discrimination, and we really need to and and together with that is is this lack of education especially to the to the wider [00:31:00] community. New Zealand is considered. You know, we have a focus or or a targeted prevention, um, attitude as far as the Ministry of Health is concerned, and that's not a bad policy. I mean, obviously, you know, you you target the most at risk group, and the most at risk group is is gay men. Um so all the funding and all the focus is predominantly, um, targeted at gay men. So I think there's a lot of very good, um, awareness campaigns being done by New Zealand AIDS foundations and and at and targeting [00:31:30] that community. But there isn't anything being done to the general community. So a lot of which I think, um, manifests the whole thing, that it's a gay disease. Um, you know, I think it increases that kind of stigmatisation. And it also, um, I think creates an atmosphere that HIV is not in New Zealand. And if you are heterosexual, you're not going to be affected by it. And I. I think that's still the current, um, understanding around HIV in New Zealand. It's it's not really [00:32:00] thought of something that's gonna happen to me, and I think, um, if we don't do something about that, I mean, I think for the future. I see, um, I don't really ever see New Zealand being an epidemic country. We have done some amazing things. Um, you know, one of the first countries to have the needle exchange programmes, Um, we've, um, you know, had the homosexual law reform. Um, the sex workers law reform. All of those things have helped to make sure that we can We can be open and public [00:32:30] and and work with these communities and accept the communities and and break down the stigma around those communities. So we've done some amazing things here, and and they they could most definitely have helped to keep that down. Um, but I think we will see a slow, steady increase. It won't ever be an epidemic, but there will continue to be a slow, steady increase. Um, in the heterosexual community amongst women, because there's a lack of understanding and a lack of awareness around HIV. I think in the gay community is going to [00:33:00] continue because, um, there's this whole thing now around the new medications and the a RVS and that Oh, well, if I get HIV, I'll just take a pill and I'll be fine. Um, which, Yes, you can still live with it, But it's not just, you know, there's a whole lot more that surrounds that living with HIV than just taking a pill, which you have to take for the rest of your life and has all sorts of side effects. But I do foresee, Um, and it's not just something that's happening in New Zealand. It's happening on the global sense as well. Is that that the gay [00:33:30] community are sort of thinking, Oh, I can just, um you know, I don't If I have got HIV and I'm on antiretrovirals, I can probably have unprotected sex because I'm not going to pass it on. And people who, um, are not HIV positive are going to think, Well, I don't It doesn't matter because I can take this pill and I'll be fine and and and that's, um, I'm not putting the community down in any sense. It's just a reality of what we're seeing, which is happening, and it's happening globally. Um, and and you know, I wouldn't even be surprised if one day that [00:34:00] we see because they're really, you know, the UN aids and all of those those sort of people are are working towards. You know, maybe, um, medication is a form of prevention. So if everybody is on medications and their viral loads are down, they're gonna be less contagious. Um, so they're not gonna pass it on. But then I think the people who are not positive are gonna think Oh, well, it's fine. And that can That could also go over to the heterosexual community. But I feel and I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound [00:34:30] like I'm just sort of splitting the communities, but, um but I do feel that in the general community in New Zealand, you know, in the schools in the public Forum, there's not enough awareness about HIV.

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VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; 6 on 6 peer support group; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Body Positive; Bruce Kilmister; Club Phoenix; Eve van Grafhorst; Glenn Mills; HIV / AIDS; Karen Ritchie; Mark Thomas; Māori; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Positive Health scheme; Positive Speakers Bureau; Queen of the Whole Universe; Wellington; alcohol and drug abuse; counselling; depression; disclosure; education; family; friends; gay; health; insurance; isolation; lipoatrophy; organisation; peer support; retreats; safe sex; sex; sex-on-site venues; stigma; support; takatāpui; youth
DATE: 20 July 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Body Positive, 3/1 Poynton Terrace, Auckland
CONTEXT: In this podcast Charlie, Ron and Ngapoe talk about Body Positive - a group founded by and run for people living with HIV and AIDS in New Zealand.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Charlie. Uh, I was diagnosed in 1985 in Wellington, but I shifted back to Auckland in 1990 uh, due to the transfer with job, the only people in Auckland that were around for people living with HIV was the AIDS Foundation, which I found out through the hospital. The specialist up at the hospital, Dr Mark Mark Thomas. He put me on to them to get some help, which I went to, and [00:00:30] and I saw one of the counsellors there. I told him what was wrong, and I was sent by specials and he just dropped me off. Didn't do a thing for me. So I went home, um, got in touch with the specialist again, and he said he was body positive, so I came to body positive, and they were the only ones that ever helped me. AIDS Foundation didn't do a thing for anybody. If you were good looking, they would if you're a young person [00:01:00] in the mid eighties having a diagnosis like that, what? What did that mean when they didn't give me any help? It meant a lot because I didn't know who to turn to. Um the only person I could turn to was my specialist up in the hospital, and I couldn't ring him. 24 7. There was just no nobody else to turn to. So it did. It didn't mean a lot. They were my first port of call. They did nothing for me. So I didn't go back. I just kept it myself. Can you recall [00:01:30] the first time you came to body positive? Uh, yes, it was. He And behind the counter was a lady by the name of Karen. What did it mean to you to come to body positive? Uh, it took me a long time to, um, trust anybody else. And it It took a lot. It was only for a friend of mine. Told me. Oh, this is a place you can go to, and they can help you. So I came with him. He had to come with me. I wouldn't have come by myself and just signed up. And I've been covering you ever [00:02:00] since I come to body positive anyway. So what did body positive offer in those early years Friendship, um, place to sit and talk with everybody else? I didn't know. There were so many people living with HIV in Auckland and they were all coming here, So yeah, it was a place of friendship and just getting to know everybody else. And I wasn't the only person living with it. I've been the one diagnosed, um, the longest. But I didn't think there was anybody else at that time. What was [00:02:30] the membership like at body positive in terms of, you know, science was a lot of people or Well, the people I met was that wasn't all that much. It was only just over the past few years that coming back to it and going to the retreat, And I found out it was a bigger, bigger membership. What retreat? Or they have a retreat every year in March. Um, for HIV men living with HIV and they have a retreat up at park. So I think that's where a lot of people come out [00:03:00] and and get used to being HIV. It's just somewhere to let let let yourself go and enjoy the company of everybody else. Ron, when did you get involved with positive? About five years ago. Uh, I joined body positive. Um, I was, uh, coming in to see Bruce the CEO. And, uh, he had a small, uh, position available, uh, doing a survey on the phones [00:03:30] and from my telecom background. Um, he said, Look, I've got two weeks of work. You can, uh You can call this and do the survey calling our members, uh, and, uh, and there was a little bit of money in it available to pay me. Um, and, uh, also a little bit for the organisation itself. Uh, so I did that, and then a position came up to, uh, uh, do a part time position came up, [00:04:00] uh, where one of the, um, people were leaving, Uh, so I, I did, uh, did that. And it soon grew into a full time position. Uh, as a full time receptionist. Uh, come, uh, application funding application? Uh, writer, uh, and really, you know, that sort of thing. So, uh, so hence I am here today, just carrying on that [00:04:30] work and absolutely love it. You say funding applications. Does that mean that body positive is independent and always kind of looking for funding, or does it come under some other organisation? No. We're totally independent, and we rely on philanthropic organisations to survive. We do have a small government contract. And that came about around two years ago. Uh [00:05:00] and, uh, So we we still need to contact the philanthropic organisations to survive, uh, to pay our rent to pay the overheads of, uh, of our location here and also the staff as well as providing the services that we do. What kind of services do you provide now? We have a range of, um of services. Um, there is, uh, the drop in centre itself which, uh, anyone can drop [00:05:30] in can use the internet. Uh, they can sit and relax. Watch a DVD. Uh, they can come in and have a coffee or a tea and a chat with other members in a safe, secure environment. Uh, we offer counselling. Uh, so for those that that feel they need to talk to someone one on one. we offer that, uh, we also have what they call a positive health scheme, and that is an amazing scheme [00:06:00] which has been going for around two years now whereby for a yearly fee, members can, um, get a range of services for free. Uh, the services are doctors uh, free doctors. Um, charges. So no charge to go and see a doctor. Uh, pharmacy charges. So subsidised. Uh um, pharmacy charges. Um, we have the counselling, of course. Uh, and [00:06:30] we have a podiatrist. So a podiatrist comes in once a month, and they can have three of those a year. Uh, we have two masseurs that come in. They come in twice a week, Uh, and so the member can have six of those per year. Uh, we run a budgeting service. So for those that can't quite manage their money, they can come in and do that. We have a stop smoking group. We have a range of, um, [00:07:00] outside groups. When I say outside, it's still a body positive group or groups. Uh, one is the under 35 group, which we, uh which, uh, meet once a month. Uh, and that is for under 35 people that are positive, uh, where they can be within their own age range. It's run by the same lady Charlie talked about Karen Ritchie. Uh, so she's still involved with us, and she, um, keeps [00:07:30] keeps that group secure. Um, they called her mother, uh, which is absolutely wonderful. And she is like a she actually, she's actually a grandmother, but, uh, she she, uh, is called mother. Uh, we also have the club Phoenix Group, which is on a Wednesday night. Uh, and that is really good. It's for those that are working or those that even you don't have to have a job to come to. This, um, you can still come along and it's run on a Wednesday night every [00:08:00] Wednesday night where people can come after work. They can, um, have a meal, uh, and basically sit down and relax and socialise and talk. We have another group, um, which is run probably, um, once, um, 33 times a year. And that's called six on six. And that's That's six guys, um, for six weeks [00:08:30] at 6 p. m. on a particular night, and it's usually a Monday night for six weeks in a row. And this group is generally for those that want to know more about HIV more about the care and support, uh, aspect of it. Uh, the first, uh, the first week. They tend to talk about what the next five weeks are going to be about, and it's the group that decides what those topics are going to be. For example, they might decide [00:09:00] that they want a specialist to grill him and talk about the virus or talk about treatment. Might want a dietician to come in and talk about food. Uh, that sort of thing. So, um, they have some really great successes. And, of course, in the within the group, there is generally one or two that are long term survivors, and normally three or four that are that are not, um, and some newly diagnosed [00:09:30] people. So, yeah, it's it's it really is good, um, to be able to share and find out information from others. Um, about that about the virus and about the, um uh, yeah, about, uh, the the treatment. So So you mentioned kind of peer to peer support. Why is peer to peer support so important? What? What do you get out of that? I think peer support is very important because, uh, especially [00:10:00] for a newly diagnosed person, uh, the the people that are newly diagnosed have not been on a journey. They haven't knowing about the, uh, treatments. They they they generally, uh, are very scared. Are very isolated. They think it's only happening to them. And then, of course, when they find out that there's lots of you know people out there with the virus then and some long term survivors, [00:10:30] it's It's very good for them to be quizzed, Uh, for the newly newly diagnosed person to to quiz, Uh, nowadays it's no longer a death sentence, and that's the first thing I think for a positive person. Um, that's newly diagnosed. If they can hear that because there's still the There's still the, um, belief out there in the general public that it's a gay man's disease and that the eventual, [00:11:00] uh, the eventual fate is death. Were you more likely nowadays to die of a heart attack or, um, natural causes that sort of thing? Uh, so in fact, we had a specialist come, uh, several months ago, and we asked him that question. What is the difference between the average life expectancy between a positive and a negative person? And the specialist said, five years, five years different. So it's [00:11:30] really nothing nowadays. OK, you have to still take your tablets every day, and that's a conscious decision that you have to make to, um, to be to stay alive. Um, because without those tables, we would all die. Um, yeah. Generally, how long does it take from somebody being diagnosed to coming to a support group like body positive? It really differs from each person. Really? Because each person has to handle it [00:12:00] in a different way. Um, some handle it quite well, and some do not take it quite well. Um, we get some people that, um for a number of years before they even start taking their medication, that what have they done wrong? You know, Are they Should they be worthy enough to live? Um, they're asking themselves this question and yet putting themselves through this mentality, um, of something that's not normal for them. So they're going through this abnormal, abnormal journey [00:12:30] of where their mentality takes them. It's a totally different place. And it's usually a dark hole or a dark place where they feel that everyone hates them and that they they feel that they're in a dark place where there is no support. And that's why a lot of them literally scream out. And for others, they say that Oh, don't be a drama queen about it, you know, um but that's what they're doing. They're just trying to find some sense as to where to find support. Where to start, where to begin. Um, you [00:13:00] know, am I going to die? Um, it's and a lot of them feel like that. You know, where they do want to not take the medication. And they do want to, um, exterminate the existence that they have now and rather live through the, um, stages of, um and the pressures of living with HIV not only do you to live with the mentality of it, but also the stigma behind it as well. And I think another thing is, too. They don't understand [00:13:30] that HIV is totally different to aid. That's two different things that they they get HIV, and then they think I'm gonna die. I've got a I exactly. And they totally two different things. They've got to live through HIV not take your tablet. And then you get a That's what they don't take it. So that's it? Yeah, it's just not understanding that HIV is not aids and what a lot of them had to live through. Um, for when a lot of people were being first diagnosed [00:14:00] is that, um we literally had to wait until we were such such a six state to such a state where we are not really. Well, we, um yeah, before we can take medication, that's that's now, Not in my day, you know, put on medication straight away. That's only happening now. And that's just happening now. Just taking part now. I, I had, um a lot of support from the hospitals and everything medication and everything, [00:14:30] but, um, we didn't have to wait till we got down that phone. Yeah, you went straight on. When I was diagnosed in 2005, I had to wait until my CD four counts were below 100 and 50. Um, whereas now they even just reviewing that and thinking that people should when they're first diagnosed, they should go straight on to medication. And but getting them on regulation is difficult enough, um, having to support them through the mental stages that they're going [00:15:00] through of I'm not gonna die. It's a death sentence and disclosure, which is another thing. Who knows who's going to find out? So you live in the secret squirrel lifestyle where well, you and then develops and then developing from there are different personalities you create and some psychology is schizophrenic. But and then again, you're learning and learning about something and you're creating something. And then at the end, [00:15:30] before you take your medication, you are so many of these things which can could have been easily ordered if you just had the simple support if they had the support there. And now with what BP offers, um, is the support for all those who do have it. And those who are about to go through those status are being recently diagnosed, Which is a scary thing. Yeah, I don't know where to go The first port of call, which is quite hard for them, but, [00:16:00] um, very positive. We have a number of, um, people that will do a test and will go to do a follow up, and they won't come back because they're scared, and that is a very scary thing. At least they know now that they have the virus. Whereas before they didn't know, uh and they didn't know they would possibly go out and have unsafe sex. Now they know they may still go out and have unsafe sex, but [00:16:30] at least in the back of their mind, they know that they have this and they they are, uh, told at at the initial diagnosis that eventually you will need treatment. Um, and, you know, we are advised that we need to get them into the hospital care so that we can monitor when that treatment starts. Uh, so, yeah, it's it's It's a scary time for a newly diagnosed person. And, um, I think support [00:17:00] is very important. One thing that you mentioned was disclosure, and I'm wondering, is disclosure a bit like coming out that actually, it's not just a one time thing that actually, in every situation you're always kind of weighing up? Do I disclose? Do I not? You have to know it by law, by law, if you're going to have sex with anybody without a condom, you have to disclose whether you like it or not. If you if you don't want to say that you're [00:17:30] HIV positive. If you use a condom, then you don't have to. You don't have to because you're taking all the necessary precautions to stop the transmission. So then you're safe. The other person is safe. Uh, and there's no reason to disclose. But does disclosure happen in different situations, like, say, in a workplace or in other situations other than kind of in a sexual Yes. Yeah. Uh, disclosure is up to the individual. And certainly, [00:18:00] apart from having unprotected sex and sharing a needle, there's no other way that you can get it. Uh, so in a workplace, uh, you can't pick up the virus from another person unless you have those things that I've just mentioned. Uh, so but there is still the stigma out there. Oh, he's got a IS. Even though he's got HIV, the people say, Oh, he's got a I DS So it's still that stigma. Uh, even now And we get we get people [00:18:30] coming in and saying My dentist won't treat me, which is totally illegal, or the dentist is, um, talking to his staff about me in my earshot about oh, double glove with this one because he's still got the virus. I mean, it's OK to double glove, but they should be double gloving for everyone because you're more likely to get hepatitis from a person than HIV in in that sort of situation. So, yeah, [00:19:00] there's there's a whole lot of fear, even in the medical world, and it's just through lack of education. Uh, so I believe that there is not enough education in within New Zealand anyway, and probably the rest of the world to educate everyone about the virus and how it's transmitted and yeah, um, all that So is that something that body positive does is actually through the outreach education [00:19:30] type of thing we do. We we need to do more. Um, our mandate is really care and support for people living with the virus. New Zealand AIDS Foundation is about, uh, education. So I believe that, um, you know, the education isn't happening as much. Maybe they're coming up. Maybe New Zealand AIDS Foundation are coming up with brick walls in schools and I don't know in in in general public, but there's [00:20:00] certainly could be more done around education. We try to educate in testing. There was when a person comes to have a have a test, we talk about sexual practises and how it's passed on and and all that, um, you know, in the pre and post test counselling but I still believe in schools. There should be a lot more, not only with HIV, but with other sexually transmitted diseases. How [00:20:30] do things in the media affect the body? Positive membership. I'm thinking of, um, the recent creche case where, um, a child was, um, had to disclose their kind of HIV status, but also things like the the Glenn Mills case from a couple of years ago. How did those major media stories affect, um, the membership I with with Glenn Mills? It brought a lot of people together through him doing that. It [00:21:00] I I found coming here. It brought you all together. You were more of a family, people that you never spoke to that you just said hello now and again. And that was it. They all got closer to one another, and we all, um, supported one another, but it brought people together with the child thing you're talking about up north? Yeah. That, um that was unfortunate because they had people going up there telling people what to do. And they didn't know their job. It wasn't their job to do it. [00:21:30] I speak of two Maori people who end up. They shouldn't have gone up there in the first place and done what they did. It should have been somebody from the AIDS Foundation or body positive. Yeah, so the uneducated people are going up and telling people things that they don't even know anything about and being married. It's ridiculous because Mary don't know a lot about things with our race, we don't open up to a lot of people. We're very private and to be HIV, even [00:22:00] to be gay. It's a big thing, because, um, if you're a man, you're meant to be a man, a warrior, Um, and in the gay world, it's a different story. You're not a warrior, you're a woman. And disclosure is a funny thing. And it's depending who you disclose it to, whether it's the professional world, educational facilities or the family, um, where it hits home. The most family disclosure to family would affect you even more in the heart. Um, when [00:22:30] you're disclosing to educational facilities like university or schools, or such like that, then it's then it's the fear of being known, and that's what our society is these days. You can't walk out your house and have 50 people, 100 people poking their fingers at you go. He's got HIV, and, um so that's the different areas of fear. But what we have at the BP, um, is it a collective group that literally united underneath that fear and knowing that we [00:23:00] are HIV positive? We have acknowledged it and accepted it, and we've even been telling ourselves that it's not a death sentence and say it more often. You know, it's not exactly. It's just about hitting 30 years I'm still alive. I'm 21 and and say that say that we're educational like the fresh, um roles, Um, even when the eve when Eve came from Australia, that should have been the first signs that we New Zealanders are more compassionate and educational about this. It's not a disease [00:23:30] that you can touch by getting to each other, and and that's that's what a lot of people are fear the most of Can we get it from touching them or them sneezing at us or looking at us? You know, can we get it from that? It's just the murder trans transmission that you have to educate them about. It's just like people with cancer you know, um, back in the 1920 everyone with cancer was shipped to Stewart Island in the 19 fifties. They were allowed back of Why was that? They educated them about cancer. It's not contagious. [00:24:00] Hepatitis B is. So they inoculate them and isolate them. Um, with HIV, it's not contagious. Um, um, it's you can live to a ripe old age, taking the proper medications and looking after yourself. Well, um, but when you get HIV, you see, a lot of people would see the changes in their lives that they have to make you know, their their lifestyle as well. Perhaps they not gonna party as much or drink as much or smoke as much like they used [00:24:30] to. But they can definitely see the changes in their bodies that HIV does. Um whether they take their medications, it's entirely up to them is because they're still living in that fear of disclosure. Um, finding that support, they also have to look for as well on their own. It's not that easy. It would be nice if they had someone there that can guide them, but unfortunately they don't. They literally have to do everything on their own. We all did. We had to look for friends of our own. We had to. I had to look for Charlie on [00:25:00] my own, who helped me join body positive and also got me onto my medications as well. So being diagnosed, um, six years ago, without medication, I could easily feel my body deteriorating and see myself deteriorating. Um, I just would not seek help for the for the fear of disclosure. That's when I went into that dark room, Dark hole, four years closed. Curtis. Dr Myself silly got stoning so silly and just wasn't an oblivion every day. [00:25:30] I did not want to face reality, and it took me four years living in that hole in that darkness. Um, but I knew that there was light at the end of the tunnel and unfortunate. Fortunately, um, I did find my light at the end of the tunnel, and he showed me a greater path to looking after myself and and and being better, and he could see that I was I was heading down, but just to hear someone say, Look, you [00:26:00] gotta look after yourself. You know, hugs go a long way, are really a lot. Even a smile goes a long way. But support in HIV goes all the way up. That's a difference between Yeah. So we you disclose it. There are many areas you have to where you have to find the courage to disclose it. And we have to disclose it within our families. We have to disclose it within the professional world, the educational world. If we go to studies, um, if we go into if we decide [00:26:30] to join a group like at the Bridge Club or the Bowling club, you know, then we have to go to certain things of how to disclose. So we've got to train ourselves, you know? And it may be the, you know, like on the gay swimming team, you know? Do they want us swimming with them? No, they don't. But how do we disclose it to them? I think if we have to, it's the fear of being rejected. Um, for any groups of society. But we know now that a body positive we will never be rejected, that we will always [00:27:00] be supported here no matter what. No matter what we go through, how do you reach out to somebody in that kind of limbo period where they, you know, they they're in that kind of black hole of not wanting to, um, cope with, you know, the kind of reality how are are there things that you can do to actually let them know that body positive or support groups are out there? What does that work? Well, basically, what we do is, um, either through the testing here at body positive or [00:27:30] at sex on venues, we, uh, encourage them to take a deep breath. And we give them a very strong message that it's no longer a death sentence. That there is a light through the tunnel. Uh, that, um there is support out there for them and that the next step, really is to find out how far advanced, uh, their diagnosis is. So if [00:28:00] they're an early, uh, they've just been had it transmitted just within the last few weeks or whether it's a two or three year transmission. Um, so then, once we know that information, then we can work out with a specialist. Uh, how long they've got before they're going to need medication. Uh, we we set up counselling sessions for for basically an assessment, and then, uh, you [00:28:30] know, additional counselling sessions right through, um, to help them get through this, But I still think, and I'm sure these guys would agree that, um, peer support and talking to other people that are positive far outweighs, um, a counsellor That is not positive. That has had some experience with positive people. But it's not the same. Uh, certainly. I think, uh, uh, [00:29:00] talking with others in a peer support situation like a six on six group, um, is far more powerful than counselling. It still has its place for other issues. But then regarding the diagnosis, I think of the peer support is the way to go because there was a There was a group now Positive Speakers Bureau, where they train you to go out and speak about being HIV. It's positive women that do it, and we've just done done the course. Um, [00:29:30] four of us quite listed it a couple of weeks ago, and it it it it was like lifting the lid off everything. You know, you felt, um you weren't ashamed of yourself for having HIV. The burden of having it was just lifted because you opened up to everybody there and that's what. And that's what it felt like is that we were burdened with it of having it. It's not a burden anymore, not a burden anymore. It's just that we've got to get out there and tell people what we've been through our journey, [00:30:00] and it's just having to live with it and how to live with it and teach it others that you can live it a fantastic, normal life. Look at me with it as well. Look at Charlie has a perfect result. Our little on the dinosaur period. So, um yeah. So, um, but the body positive speaking weekend that we went through they gave us a lot of courage within ourselves, actually to go up to the public and actually educate, um um the people. [00:30:30] Our main aim is to hopefully target the vulnerable groups between the age of 16 2029 rather than most people. But I think we could start something here with the six on six groups from the bureau who who have been on that course, can go and sit in with the six on six and just tell our story. You'll give them a wake up call because it's not an easy journey. No, not not a very easy journey to have HIV. Now it is for them because they've got all the support they can. All the support is there for [00:31:00] them. They just have to grasp it and go go for it. And with the better information out there about HIV, it's just fantastic. Even the design of drugs that they have these days, they they've got drugs for everything and the drugs that, um, that they have today are just absolutely wonderful. It fantastic couldn't couldn't live without them, you know, literally. But with the drugs when we didn't have IV. No, But you, you you've got drugs for the body. But what about the the kind [00:31:30] of mental side of things? Is that any easier nowadays then? No, that's that's that's That's another journey in itself where everyone's are learning how to get through it. I think if they hook up with the right people and somebody can talk them through it, you know, be there all the all the time to support and and stand stand by them and support them all the time. 24 7 If they have to. If they've got that, then they'll get through it. But it's just having somebody to talk to [00:32:00] constantly all the time, to remind you that through HIV you're not alone. There's somebody there to help you. And the questions that they want to ask are the questions that you cannot ask and professionals with other direct questions that, um, usually happens in the dark room. Conversations like that. They would never confide within the profession, the health profession. They don't see them as that, um, they with host with getting them to talk with another person. That's HIV, [00:32:30] if not on the same age group. It just allows them to give them the opportunity to ask those questions in which you would never ask another. How did you do it? How did you get it? Did you know how you got it? You know, and all that sort of stuff, Um, and which in the gay community, it's not an easy thing to talk about, you know, Where do you go? How do you get you know, all those little dark places that people go for sex? So, um, for them to actually sit in another room with another gay person and ask those questions. It just [00:33:00] relieves the stress. It just releases a small part of stress that they also have to think. The question you had before was, How did you get it? There's no need to ask them that they know how to have a have a how they got it. You just have to be more compassionate about the person that you're talking about, but they need to be reassured. You know, I'm sick. Do you know I'm sick? Yes, I do know you're sick because you've got what I've got. Yes, I have. So [00:33:30] it's a reflection. It's, um, what's it called reverse psychology type thing where it helps them. So the main thing out there is compassion for people to be compassionate about HIV because the stigma is you're HIV you dirt. That's what it is. You're dirty and and a lot of people have to learn how to be compassionate about it and how to understand it. That's that. That's all it is to to read the books, if they can get the information on it, to read or to get somebody to talk to them about it. [00:34:00] One of The things that the Glenn Mills case brought up in the media was there was all seemed to be a lot of discrimination, actually within, say, the gay community towards positive people. Absolutely. And where do you think the most discrimination comes from? Nowadays? Is it Is it actually within the gay community or within the gay community? I think because it's it's more, um, close to us. You know, Uh and it's, you know, certainly in a sexual, [00:34:30] uh, sense. I mean, you know, uh, we often get people you know, coming in and saying and and not disclosing because that they are scared. When they do disclose, they'll be rejected even though they're using condoms. Um, so it's it's that still does happen. And, you know, even in workplaces, we've had some workplaces that have found out through possibly [00:35:00] a medical check or whatever, and and they've broken the law because you can't discriminate it against someone with HIV. Um, yeah, so So that's that's That's where where that happens a lot and one of the and the educational institutes we've got a we've got someone who's applying for a natural path course, and even they've asked him to, and even they they've [00:35:30] asked him to stand up medical status in front of the entire class. He doesn't have to which he doesn't have to. It's up to It's up to himself. But still, there's that stigma out there through the educational departments, um, in institutes not necessarily from Nat, but also universities politics, uh, telling those on their applications. You'll see for them to disclose their medical, um, [00:36:00] situations. And they've also specified I don't know whether you have a look on the Internet on the entry forms. They've also specified what medical conditions you have. So and that's quite scary for them as well. Um, having to do that? Um, the same with, um sorry. Insurance companies or not, they will not if you had HIV. [00:36:30] If you look at the policies that I had 10 years ago, zero policies, zero applications for HIV S. And but if you look at the different years stigma, it came from the business society, the commerce, society, schools and education and health wasn't there somewhere, but because they weren't educated. But companies governments eventually went to anywhere else [00:37:00] as well, so they literally educated them in that sense. Oh, Yeah. No, don't do that. We have nothing to do with them. So that's where it all started. Really? Was from society itself, um, or wanting nothing to do with us. Even the insurance company wouldn't touch us with 2 ft. So yeah, it all started from there. And when they started to get to know more about it from the nineties in the last 10 years Um, yeah, they became more educated about [00:37:30] it. But it's just reeducating them again. Um, which is difficult. I was like telling a 60 year old going school, No, they won. And a lot of people don't like being told what to do as well. I think it's just in the last 15 years, information's come out of that information has come out because it didn't have that much of the days I was going through it. You just told by your specialist they can take your tablets, um, your CD for your teeth, something your T cells were up and [00:38:00] undetectable. Viral load was undetectable. Then, when your viral load is undetectable, they say you can't pass it on to anybody, but you still have to use have to use protection plus still be on medication. You'll always be on medication with HIV, even BP even body positive and the members of body positive have realised, you know, um, how they used the word the word HIV with AIDS. It was always HIV slash a I DS and that's what was next after HIV After HIV, [00:38:30] you get AIDS, but they never separated the two and made the two different. And so that's why members at the body Positive said it should be HIV and the AIDS virus rather than HIV slash a syndrome AIDS syndrome. It's different. So you know. So we we're still learning. Everyone's still learning today about HIV, even the facility at the creation [00:39:00] that I'll be going to on the second of August and having to teach them and educate them of people living successfully with HIV. Provided they take their medications. You can live a normal life without being contagious. Hm. One of the big things happening this weekend is the queen of the whole universe Beauty pageant and one of the beneficiaries of of the door sales from queen of [00:39:30] the whole universe is body positive. How did body positive become involved with Queen of the whole verse. Um, that was actually before my time of being here, but, um as I understand it, uh, there are three organisations that are are the beneficiaries, uh, ourselves positive woman and New Zealand AIDS Foundation. And for a number of years now, they have, um, been the recipients of of the the proceeds. [00:40:00] Uh, and it's it's it's been a wonderful help, especially to, uh, positive woman and ourselves, because back then, when it first came on board, we didn't have a go a government contract, whereas New Zealand AIDS Foundation did, um, but, uh, the the money was, uh was absolutely fantastic and generally used for, uh, for our members [00:40:30] predominantly, uh, for people with a condition called lipoatrophy. And that is a facial wasting through the use of having to take out toxic drugs. Uh, and it's often called the old man's look. So someone who has been on long term medication, especially the old regime of meds, uh, have had this condition and [00:41:00] unfortunately, the the because it's the old man Look, they tend to withdraw from society so they stay home and they don't. They're on a benefit. Generally they stay home. They don't want to get out and back into society. They find it a struggle to go to the shops for the the stigma of of of, um, you know, being recognised as a gaunt person. Oh, he must have AIDS. [00:41:30] And so it's been great because a lot of that money has been used to treat the lipoatrophy. And what we do is what we've been able to do for the last number of years is inject a product called Aqua into people's faces. Very expensive product, but it lasts for 15 years. So, uh, for each each patient, it's around 4000 New Zealand dollars, [00:42:00] so you don't need it. Yours is yours is yours is age. Uh, and, uh and so, um, that's that in itself has been absolutely fantastic for those on the on on the receiving that, uh, and we've seen some amazing success stories where people have been shut, have shut themselves away from society, and then they've had this treatment, and then suddenly they're [00:42:30] out there working again, contributing to the government, you know, by way of, uh, taxes, uh, enjoying life again, Uh, and and not afraid to, um, venture out the front gate. Um, so it's been great. And we still have a number of people, uh, around about 50 That are that are actually still in that position that that could actually benefit from, uh, from [00:43:00] this. Now, with the, uh, newer regime of drugs, there isn't those sorts of side effects nowadays, So, um, which is great? It's really good. And as new drugs come on board, all these other side effects tend to, um, drop away. So um so yeah, yeah. Not that we advocate people getting HIV, but if they suddenly do find that they are HIV positive, [00:43:30] then, uh, there is treatment out there and it's good treatment. So what do you think? Um, some of the benefits of having such a large production say, as queen of the whole universe that has safe sex messages and is is supporting body positive and other organisations What are some of the benefits of of of that kind of thing? I. I think the the benefits really are the awareness of of our organisations because, uh, in the [00:44:00] three shows that I've been to, they have had our logo on stage and and positive woman and New Zealand AIDS foundation. Uh, the, uh and bimbo have, uh, have actually spoken about our organisation, So the awareness factor is is very, very good. Uh, most people, you know, they see it in a programme as well, and there's a little synopsis of of what the proceeds is going to go to, uh, and [00:44:30] what we're all about. So from that point of view, it's it's really I guess brand awareness, uh, for us. And who knows, there could be someone a gay person going to, uh, the queen of the whole universe that sees the services that we offer and then might just come in and have a test, uh, to find out, um, and they may well be positive, and they don't know it. Um, so from our point of view, I think [00:45:00] it's, um it's a It's a great, um, great service to our our not only our community in so far as raising money for for our community, but also for the wider community to, uh, to to let them know that there is a place here, uh, positive woman and New Zealand AIDS Foundation, uh, whereby they can get support. Um, you know, for for any issues around, um, around testing around, [00:45:30] you know, being positive, um, and counselling. So is positive. Specifically for gay men? No, we have, uh we have around 40 to 45 probably about 45 females. Within our group, we have a membership of around 600 so it's predominantly, I guess. You know, um, males out of that there's probably about 100 straight identify as straight males. The rest [00:46:00] are gay or bi. Um, and, uh, and the age range really is from we've got one member, 1919 year old, uh, right up to an 80 year old. So, uh, there's a a huge, diverse, uh, you know, range of people within our organisation. Um, And what about the spread throughout the country? Is it predominantly Auckland? Or is it? It's predominantly Auckland. Only because [00:46:30] we've got the resource centre here. And as the largest population of New Zealand, we have a number of members throughout, uh, throughout the country. Uh, and the positive health scheme that I mentioned before is actually, uh, spreading throughout New Zealand. We've got we haven't got the same sorts of services that we can offer like we do for Auckland members. but we can offer, uh, you know, we get one or two doctors in their [00:47:00] area to be part of it. Uh, in a pharmacy in the odd, um, the odd podiatrist, you know, So there's there's generally a basic range of services that they can offer. Um, and ideally, what we want to do within the next year or two is open up a branch within the Wellington area and also the Christchurch area, uh, to to replicate what we have here. So that is our [00:47:30] our our goal for the next couple of years. To do that, we're we're going to have a retreat like Charlie mentioned for South Island members. The first one ever, uh, in November this year. So, uh, so that's really good. It's obviously because we we have about 80 guys go to the Auckland, and that's been Auckland one. and that's been basically from all over New Zealand members coming, but [00:48:00] it's outgrowing. The services are the facilities. So we're thinking to have a South Island one and a North Island one at two different times of the year. Um, which is great. That's really good. Um, that must be quite something going to those retreats. Yeah, it's, um it's relaxing and you get to meet people that you've never met before and you didn't think they had HIV. You see them in the street, it ordinary people, and you didn't know they had HIV. So [00:48:30] it is. Yeah, it's an eye opener, but it's a good eye opener. It's a, um it's a self esteem building weekend where we are able to see a lot of different things in ourselves and each other, really, and just unite as one people and just the communication that you get for the entire weekend, Uh, where you are able to talk to not only different age groups, but different races. And it doesn't matter what colour you are, what you are all the same. They all got HIV, and that's that regardless of [00:49:00] and the only thing is that we try to see part of our own cells, our own materialistic things that we hold on to so dearly, Um, which, um doesn't exist to today for a lot of people that have HIV because they literally have to let go of the old World and begin a new world of their own, they have to reteach themselves everything they give up on their own, they are able to see a better way of taking medications and see a better life. Um, having [00:49:30] to take medications? Um, just live in AAA. Much healthier. Um, older life. So we take over cigarettes and all do? Yeah. Which one do you choose? A life or you want to have a good time and die early? That's it. It's your medication you got to take to do. Some people choose not to take medication, and eventually they die. We We had a lady had a lady three years ago who, uh, who chose not to take medication. [00:50:00] Uh, and she got down to a very bad state in her health. And then she decided that she wanted to try and take the medication. She died six months later because it was too late. Uh, and she regretted she She, uh she regretted that initial decision because she wanted to party. Uh, rather than take her medication. Um, [00:50:30] so that that in itself is a choice that people have. And, you know, even today we have a number of members that choose not to not to take medication for a variety of reasons. It could be cultural. It could be that they believe in something else they believe in, you know, Buddhism or or or um, that sort of thing. Even the stress related, um, the stress factor related, [00:51:00] um can also help influence where so many things are happening in their lives. It it may not be those particular things. Um, it may be like, for example, coming from Christchurch. The earthquake situations people are, um are recently finding out they have HIV after going through the earthquake situations. Um, we've got people who have gone through, um, family issues and breaking child abuse and their family that's been going on all their lives. You know, [00:51:30] um, and having to deal with HIV and people losing their family members, um, losing their parents, um, losing their loved ones, their partners, and having to find out that they are HIV. And so, Yeah, a lot of things that they go through, um can trigger them. Um, stress is one of the main factors, um, where they decide not to take their medication. So showing them love compassion, [00:52:00] um, helps them make helps them decide to live a better life. Oh, yeah, I. I can live a better life. I can live a healthier life If you've got HIV and somebody else is trying to come out to you, you just gotta have a good listening ear and a and A and a friendly shoulder to like. That's all I knew. Now you think to them. Well, you got it from this and that and that and that. Just gonna push them away. You just gotta be compassionate. Have a friendly year and a shoulder to cry on. That's it.

IRN: 564
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/david_and_rae_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003982
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089276
TITLE: David and Rae
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2000s; Aotearoa New Zealand; San Francisco; United States of America; coming out; family; gay; growing up; homophobia; identity; military; parents; relationships; religion; social; youth
DATE: 13 July 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: San Francisco, San Francisco, United States of America
CONTEXT: In this podcast David and Rae talk about coming out, identity and relationships.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How young were you when you first realised you liked other guys? It wasn't clear to me until you know, puberty. Once I hit pure videos. Yeah, I knew. Um, but it was a dream that, um, made me start to realise it. It was, um It was my principal. When I was in middle school, I had, um, kind of a I had a dream with him in it. And it When I woke [00:00:30] up, I was like, Oh, at first I didn't really think anything of it because I didn't really know what it was. I grew up in a very, um, in a Southern Baptist or fundamentally Baptist, um, community. And they don't really talk about that. And when they do, it's it's nothing. Good. So, um, that's when I started to really, um, notice whenever our pastor would, um, preach about homosexuality. That's when it really [00:01:00] before I didn't really pay attention to it. I didn't really understand. But then I started to That was that was really weird. When did your family find out? Um, they didn't find out until I was in first or second year of high school, but, um, only one knew and he was my cousin and he only found out that I was gay because he told me he was gay first. [00:01:30] So I remember we were watching American Idol, and he just turns to me, and he's like David and I was like, Yes, I like guys. I was like, That's cool. He's like, Really you you accept me? I said, Yes, he's like, OK, and he turns to television and he says, That guy's hot, too. And, um, I was I kept, um, my identity to myself for two years [00:02:00] before that. So I knew what it felt like to just not telling anyone having no support. So it took me a week, a week, exactly a week after when the next time he watched American Idol for me to tell him and I remember his reaction. He just got ecstatic and he started jumping on the bed. I'm like, you're gay, too. You're gay. Two, too. So, yeah, that was, um so and then just, um I told my parents, [00:02:30] I think I think Oh, no. It was the beginning of sophomore year of high school. I first told my dad, and I remember thinking that my dad would react badly, and my mother, my mom, would be, um, accepting about it, but it was the exact opposite. But I think it's because my dad was prepared because he always kind of thought or suspected. And my mom, it just blind sided my mom, My mom [00:03:00] did the whole Bible. Something like Homosexuality is a sin. You're gonna go to hell, Don't be gay type of thing. And, um, my dad was nice about it, and but he he believes it's wrong, but, you know, he will tolerate it, and that's that's his stance on it. And my the rest of my family just found out gradually. I never told them. They just They just found out somehow. [00:03:30] I don't know how I still to this day. Don't know how they found out. So, yeah, that's it. Um, how involved are you with the gay community now? Not very much. Um, I've I have gay friends, but we're not really a part of a community like like, you know, like a huge gay community in a city. We're not really a part of that. So I just have gay friends. But [00:04:00] I don't consider myself, you know, Mike in the community. I don't go to gay bars. I don't go to gay clubs. I don't I don't really, Um I don't think I've experienced the the whole gay lifestyle and gay culture. Would you like to? Yes. Yes, but, um, I hear things from other people. Other people who have experienced the that lights, [00:04:30] um, that culture. And they say it's fun, but they don't really have good things to say about other gay people. Like, um, they can be a little catty. They're they can be superficial. It's It's not good for someone like, um, yes. I don't know how to explain it. [00:05:00] So you've heard enough? Uh, negative. Yeah. There's a lot of negative. Um, not not about the whole community, but there's there's enough negative, um, comments about them that just make me a little wary. I do want to experiments, I. I mean, how can I not, But I just I'll be a little wary when I do. I think that's why it is a new thing to experience. So how about you? [00:05:30] How, um when did you realise you were gay? Um, I think I was around 45. I was born in San Diego. But I did grow up in New Zealand, and my earliest memories were actually that of New Zealand. And I remember we were shirtless, um, as little kids, and, um, I don't know, I was never into girls. I've always found the male body more attractive. Um, [00:06:00] I didn't come out to my parents so much later in life, though. Um, but when I did come out to my friends, it turned out it was kind of obvious. Like they kind of saw it coming. Probably because I've never been interested in girls. They've never seen me with another girl, never had girlfriends. And then I was always with other guys and especially in sports. And, um, I met [00:06:30] my childhood sweetheart Jorge in, uh, in high school, and we eventually did get married, and, uh, we still love each other of seven years. Now, how long are you dating? We actually never went on a date. We always just hung out with each other and kind of knew we, um we were very compatible. So you just skip the whole dating process and just said, Hey, let's get married. Basically, basically, we, [00:07:00] um unless you consider every time we hung out as a date because we always did, um, things together. And there was a third guy, Pat. He ended up being by and we would skateboard together. Go sketching, um, which is where you hold on to the back of a vehicle and skateboard for faster speeds. I'll recommend it's not safe. Yeah, I, I would never do that. I'm sorry. Yeah, it sounds dangerous. How you do that? [00:07:30] It was fun. So when did you come? How did your family react to you coming out? Um, my New Zealand members that I contacted a few of them did, um, contact me back and said that they were supportive and accepting and the and basically my entire American family American Indian side of the family. Um, we also accepting, except for my grandparents, who were like, chief, you know, their traditional old school, [00:08:00] and they still don't accept that. Um, when I told my parents that I was going to marry Jorge, I first told my mom and she she took it well. And then I, you know, went to the bedroom and told my dad, And as soon as I said, I'm Hey, Dad, I'm getting married. The first thing that came out of his mouth was why and then, [00:08:30] um I thought he was going to say who and so I said Jorge. And then it created a awkward moment. But he was He did come around and they're also Christian people. But they're very open minded Christian, and they realise, you know, we're not doing harm to the community. We're we really love each other. We're very loyal to each other and, um, dedicated to making it work. We both put forth effort, and [00:09:00] we, um we don't go to bed angry. It's one of our things. So if we're if we're fighting, if we're angry, then we talk it out. You know, we try to sympathise, get on the same page. And that's worked really well for our relationship. Um, we don't argue. We pretty much have very similar mindset. So, um, so your your parents are very much, um, true Christians in sense of words. And true Christians are bigots. Yes. And they're [00:09:30] very much into love, this message of love. So it's it works. And so my parents are very accepting that way. It's really good. So do you have any siblings? Yes, I have a younger sister. She's straight. Um, how does she take it? You're coming out. Actually, she knew before everyone else, because we did grow up together. Very. Um, we grew up in very harsh neighbourhoods, so it made our bond [00:10:00] closer because I'm always defending her. I would fight off people who would hurt her, and we got closer because of that. Um, so when I when I told her, she always knew and she was very accepting that's good. Um, I have two older half sisters and, um, my other my oldest one, lives in Sacramento. And I told her first, [00:10:30] and she was very accepting of it, but I didn't actually get a chance to tell my second sister because, um, I remember when I one of the times my dad and I were talking about it. It was like a day or so after when I first told him he I told him to not tell her because I wasn't ready to tell her yet because especially at that time, my sis, that sister and I, we did not get along. So [00:11:00] if I was going to tell her it would I would need a lot more time to do it so But even though I asked my father too Um I I remember going upstairs and he just tells her, and I'm I'm I upstairs, and I just I can hear them. And I'm just like I just told you not to tell her. And I came down and we had a We had a fight about that, and my dad left and my sister brought me into her room and she kind of gave me this [00:11:30] look and there is really long, awkward silence. I remember seeing her just going. OK, um, are we Are we going? Are we gonna talk because you're just sitting there staring at me? It's kind of creepy. She said, What did I ever do to you? And I remember playing like I'm I'm sorry, Can you Can you elaborate? Because, I, I don't understand what you mean by that question. And she kind of just had this long sigh and she's like, This is [00:12:00] all my fault. And then she's like, just leave it. If I remember leaving her room with the most people look on my face. I did not understand what happened. So I'm I'm glad your sister took it very well. Um, it's an experience. Someone should have. Mine was kind of weird. Yeah, mine Mum was like I I as I said it. It was like telling her what the weather was [00:12:30] outside. It was apparently so obvious to her she was new, even though I don't I know a lot of stereotypical gay guys, like, I don't know, musicals or something, and I was never into that. Um, I was always into sports, so I was kind of like guy guy guy, you know? So I'm not sure how she I guess she was. She's very observant. I will say that, [00:13:00] Um I have a gay aunt, and when I told her she was very joyful, she, um she her lover, Tina, had been together. Let's say 89, 10 years now. No, more like 11. 12 now. Even when Tina went through cancer, she was there. Um, Tina defeated cancer, so that was great. Um, um, it was difficult for my mom to accept [00:13:30] my aunt for being gay. For some reason, she was in denial for decades. I think the fact that my aunt came out as gay before me opened the way for my mom to accept me as gay later on in life. So I think my aunt, for being a Trailblazer in, you know, try my mom that not all gays act a certain way or not. Just because you're gay doesn't mean you're promiscuous [00:14:00] or, you know, bitchy. I don't know. There's negative stereotypes that, um, that my mom now knows it's not true. So just a sexual preference has nothing to do with personality. I met. I've met all sorts of bi gay lesbian men when I was active duty, and they're wonderful people. They serve our country just like the rest of [00:14:30] the troops. You know, there's gays and, um, special force. Um, there's Navy Marine. I've met airmen, air women, you know, um, there are even I've seen time and time again. Where straight, um, people in the military have covered for, um those who are not, um, junior enlisted. Um, [00:15:00] I've I I've knew three officers, um, across the branches that were stationed, um, stateside, who ended up being Trans. Um, and they were officers. So, uh, they're they're in all over all ranks. And, um, I'm glad now that May 5th of last year 2011, we had a briefing at my unit to overcome, [00:15:30] um, how to implement the process of introducing homosexuality into the UCMJ the uniform code of military justice. Um, and so it's no longer considered, um, grounds for, uh, dis dishonourable discharged and, um, is no longer grounds to be turned down to be, um, you know, ship out and to swear in, and [00:16:00] you can't get article 15 for it, so it's no longer punishable. Um, and it's just I've had a very positive experience in the military with my, um, gay companions who were very, uh, who really helped me through a difficult time because I did come out to my parents during active duty when I was stationed, and, um [00:16:30] and they helped me through it and explain what I should say to my mom and dad. And in fact, I actually knew, um, a couple of my buddies came out to their families too, right before deployment. Um, and for the most part, we're, um, received very, very well, so that's good. So, um, is anybody else in your family gay? Besides, your aunt? Yeah. Um [00:17:00] That's why, um, my mom when she said, Well, I don't know if there should be I. I don't know if you should marry because, you know, traditionally, it's man and woman and my dad, he jumps in and says, Well, there's lots of gays on my side of the family in New Zealand and, um, I didn't know that till he said that I'm like, really I should have come out sooner. I would have. When I was in New Zealand, I had no idea [00:17:30] I was a kid, and, um, that any of my family were gay. So it kind of goes over your head. You don't really fully understand till you're older later on in life, when you learn lessons and experience things. So So where is your, um where is your husband now? He's in Peru. Oh, so I plan on being with them at all times. My favourite animal is a wolf, and they mate for life. So I like to think that [00:18:00] we're soulmates mating for life and we'll we're both logical and rational people, so we'll make it work. Um, how about you? Do you see yourself? Uh, i'll be alone and bitter for the rest of my life. I'm just joking. Um um I don't know. I don't really think, um it's much a priority for me right now, but, I mean, there's a lot of things I want to do with my life before [00:18:30] I even think about that because, um, I've only had I guess you can call it a relationship. But it was just one, and it was it did not last long, and, um, I won't go into details, but he ended it. Apparently it just didn't work out for him. And the whole experience of it just made me realise that realise that I was a lot more insecure than I thought it was, so [00:19:00] I could have became bitter. But I just took around and just took it as a lesson. And I kind of told myself that I wouldn't I wouldn't go into a relationship again until I felt that I was ready for it. So right now I'm just gonna focus on my priorities like I'm focusing on writing and finding more creative outlets. Um, I want to travel. [00:19:30] I really want to go to Scotland and the and New Zealand and all those places. Um, I'm not maybe not so much Japan. I'm not sure, but that's an option. But, you know, maybe someday I don't know when I don't know when I'll I'll be be ready. But it will happen. I'm sure it will. I'm sure you'll find a really great guy. Why? So I'm just kidding. Um, [00:20:00] yeah, that that's That's my thought. That's all I'll say. What kind of work Um, do you aspire to do with a career that you're interested in writing for writing? Um, well, right now I'm kind of thinking about screenwriting. And then I think about, uh, writing graphic novels or Japanese manga or comic books or just novels [00:20:30] or scripts for movies. I'm thinking I'm considering all of them, but it's not set in stone yet of what I really want to do. I don't really think I I can't just, like, say I want to be this one and just go into that. Um, I think if I want to be more versatile, I should just, like, experiment in all those areas. Yeah, so we don't really know yet. It's always good to keep your options open. It is What? How about [00:21:00] you What do you? Well, I would like to be, um, a graphic designer. I'm hoping that, um I can utilise my G. I bill to go to art institute, um, and get a bachelor of science game and art design. Um, till then, I'm willing to work for money. It doesn't matter what just, um as long as I can keep a roof over my sister's head and take care [00:21:30] of her and keep a home safe till Jorge comes back from Peru. Um, and also, Pat and I mentioned earlier who's also like a brother of mine. Um, he's my housemate. So kind of in it together. It's good. Um, so to wrap this up, um, what advice would you give to someone who's coming out? [00:22:00] Um, I would say, um I think it'd be best to do it as soon as possible because keeping it inside, um can really affect your psyche. And, um, you know, you want to create good memories when you're in childhood. But if all you can think about the depression and the angst, Um, and Plus, I think the longer you give someone to adjust to it, it would, um, they'll be more accepting over [00:22:30] time. If some people just need time to, um, come to terms with the fact that you're actually gay, So I would do it as soon as possible. Um, I would, you know, at first feel them out, Try to be subtle, Um, so that it's doesn't kind of bitch. Slap them with that kind of bomb. Um, but, um, especially to your to people you consider friends and [00:23:00] close relatives. It's very important to for them to know. So I very much agree with that. It's it's, um, probably the best logical approach to it. So but, um, as always, there's so many different situations, so it really depends.

IRN: 563
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/lana_lawless_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003981
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089275
TITLE: Lana Lawless
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Lana Lawless
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2000s; Lana Lawless; San Francisco; United States of America; coming out; courts; family; gender identity; human rights; law; relationships; sport; transgender; transition; transphobia
DATE: 25 June 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: San Francisco, San Francisco, United States of America
CONTEXT: In this podcast Lana talks about growing up, transitioning and becoming the 2008 women's world long drive golf champion.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: When I was younger for me I I growing up, I knew I wasn't gay. And believe me, it's I'm not saying that drug to there was just I just knew I wasn't gay. I knew I was a girl, but I'm 58 years old. So in my world, back then, I didn't even know what a transsexual was. I mean, I'm not gay, I'm a girl. But I'm body of a boy and I kept having these, you know, dreams and wants and desires. And it'd be like, Oh, my [00:00:30] God, I'm just weird. I didn't know I was so you You purge what it's called you. You know, you you're in denial basically, and then you go back to living in the world and growing up. I was very effeminate till I was about 13 and I got tired of being beaten up every day going to school. So in that summer between middle school and high school, we had moved, and I kind of created the character who later became cutter. That [00:01:00] was my nickname. I was just this overly male obnoxious. I mean, would fight at the drop of a hat. I played, you know, ice hockey football, the really macho two. Not only to convince the world was easy but to get to myself. No, I'm really a male. I went in the military. I was in a police officer for 18 years. I'm not just a police officer. I worked the gang unit in SWAT in one of the most violent cities [00:01:30] in California. So that but still the urges were there and the feelings and I have been married a couple of times or, you know, have a girlfriend that would break up and in between. Maybe I'd buy some girl clothes, you know, through the Internet and the desires, and then be like, Oh, my God, I'm a police officer. I'm just so strange, you know? And well, now, as I'm older, I start hearing, you know about Internet, and I actually start running into, you know, uh, gay, [00:02:00] lesbian, trans people and stuff, you know, like, uh, there is a world out there. After I retired from the police department, I got injured after 18 years and they couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together enough to be a police officer. So they retired me and I was single, and I just went. It's time for me. I'm gonna live. So, I I made the decision. By then I'd already learned about the Internet. [00:02:30] And I found a couple websites and support groups, if you will. And so what age were you? When? When you transitioned. I was actually very late. I transitioned at the age of 50 but I went from literally being outed. Meaning here again, I'm, you know, single now. And I was buying some clothes and we're not walking to a store. That would be just Oh, my God. You know, you can't really sell. [00:03:00] I'm buying for my wife. She's a big girl, You know. That doesn't work. The sales girl looks at you like Really? Um, Honey, please. Your wife wears size 12 shoes. Come on. So I had found out about these clubs transgender clubs in Los Angeles. So I got a hotel room and I went there the first night, and, uh, I was just terrified, and I walked in and it was like, Oh, my God, it was such a [00:03:30] It was such an eye opening. It was a feeling of freedom. And I can remember I walked in. I was a hot mess I had on, you know, final. I look like a hooker, you know, five inch heels and the whole big to do and and I'll I'll never forget it. The song I believe by Cher was playing and all the girls just dance by themselves in the dance floor. I was like a duck hit in water. I did that. I was just Oh, my God, The feeling of freedom This is who [00:04:00] I am And it was wonderful. Well, then, as I said, I started late, but it kind of I got outed by a friend who I'll make a long story short wanted me to bid on something he was selling on eBay. And I didn't know that a seller could click on your eBay name to see if you're a good prospect or whatever. But it shows everything you've bought. What possessed him to click on my [00:04:30] name. And there it was all the big girl shoes and clothes and all the stuff. So I was a member of a private country club Golf Country Club. For 21 years, I was the club champion. I got a phone call at Blue one day and It was like, I don't know what you're into, you freaky son of a bitch. And they're talking about you at the I was, like, What? But what? Yeah, well, I won't say his name, but found your stuff on eBay. You're a cross dresser, and it was like, Well, I was like, Oh, my God. My world [00:05:00] just came to an end because once Well, my mother asked me, Honey, are you sure about this? My parents are very supportive. I told her I said, Mom, they've seen Lana in a miniskirt. You can't go back to, you know, uh, I was just kidding, Guys, I'm really the bad ass cop. No, that's that's gone. So I went from technically being out to and I just started therapy and just started going to the clubs. [00:05:30] 16 months later, I was fully done. Post operative. I went well, that world is over. There's nothing holding me back. And and so there you go. Your friends and family pre op. How did they respond to you after that? Well, I do not have one friend from the police department. I mean, it is 18 years of, you know, being in gun battles and, you know, looking after you, Like in the military. [00:06:00] Obviously, you know, you're looking after your partner's back is not a one. The country club. 21 years. And I was, uh, in the inner circle, if you will, because of, you know, my golfing ability and not a one. But now I have a My LGBT friends are so much more. They're not hypocrites. They're true friends. This is who they are. And, you know, my life is different, but yet it's more fabulous. Now it's, you know, it's it's a lot better. My [00:06:30] parents very accepting. My, uh, sister is my brother is however he ha. He lives in Arizona. He hasn't seen me so eight years now. We've talked on the phone a few. He just said he's not there And OK, you know, But my parents are very good. Uh, some cousins, uh, very some of my cousins, like we love Lana. She's sweet. You're a bastard. Like that boy had issues. I'm sorry. So, [00:07:00] um yeah, it's good. My parents were very cool. My my mother's, uh, was very funny, And I Would you like me to tell you how I came out to my mother. Well, I was starting. They were still living. They live in Arkansas now, But they were out here living out here because my father was working out here, so I'd go over every night for dinner. Well, I'm losing weight. I was like, 2. 55 is a [00:07:30] SWAT cop. 91, 75. And, Oh, I'm just getting healthy, you know, nobody really noticed. You know that from the hormones. The, you know, facial hair is thinning the body. Hair is leaving. Um, so I've got Well, that was the biggest thing for me. Not for me to face the world. But my mother took great pride in her SWAT cop son, you know who was the protector of the family and the and I was gonna devastate her. And that was really hard [00:08:00] for me. You know, I didn't want to do that. And I was starting the life test where it's 24 7 girl, and you have to prove it. In California, you have to get a new identification card, new bank account. You have to get a job, which I did at this little, um, boutique where all the stripper girls would buy their clothes and stuff. And the man, I'm sure I walked in in boy mode to get the she was Oh, honey, I'll hire you. You're gay. I must have looked like some princess [00:08:30] when I walked in. She said I wouldn't hire you if you're straight and like, Oh, I'm transitioning. She goes, Oh, great. You know, Not a problem, you know, because of the type of store it was. So I had to come up to my parents, so I called my mother. One night at midnight, my father was in bed. I was crying hysterically, and she never heard him cry. I never I was no emotion. She was like, totally freaking out. So I went over to her house and I had a [00:09:00] five by seven photograph of me in full drag. I guess, if you will leather miniskirt, a five inch heels hot mess. So I went over there and she's freaking. She thinks I'm gonna tell her I've got cancer or something, and I had the picture down on the on the dining room table and I. I actually told her because she was What's wrong? What's wrong? And I looked her right in the face. And I said, How do you tell the person you love the most in life [00:09:30] that they don't know who you are? And she said, Honey, I raised you How would I not know? And I said, You don't know who I am Me meaning I'm a girl I'm And she wanted to know what the The pitch upside down. And I said, I can't tell you I can't And my little mother reached across the table and she grabbed me by the arm and she said, Honey, if you're trying to tell me you're gay, it's OK. My love [00:10:00] is unconditional because I she you know, she'd seen all the parade of girlfriends and a wife and whatnot. And I said, Mom, I'm not gay. I'm a girl And I showed her the picture and my mother looked at this picture, and the first thing she said was, Honey, you have nice legs and she didn't know, you know? So I've tried to explain transgender, and this is who I am and what I want to live my life [00:10:30] as and stuff. And she was, you know, I had a book, um, called true Selves by Mildred Brown, and it's quite informative. It's good for parents and stuff to tell us the definition. I mean, I don't like definitions, but you know, the difference between a dried queen and a transsexual and transvestite. Um, so we kind of talked all about that and she was worried for my, you know, safety and stuff. So OK, so two days later, [00:11:00] she calls me on the phone, all excited, and she's all honey, I've got it, I've got it. And I'm like, You got what Oprah Winfrey had a girl on just like you. Today she goes, Oh, my God, it's not how you were raised or nothing We did, Honey, you were born that way. And this is before Lady Gaga's song. She you were born that way. She says, You know, Pop, I call my dad Pop, she goes Pop and I have been talking [00:11:30] And well, he said, it is what it is. But even though you had the the I created cutter, if you will picture the most obnoxious you know, male macho, the epitome of manhood, which a lot of trans girls do, they hide as cops, firemen, they don't hide his gay piano tuner. I mean, that's that's kind of defeating the point, you know. But they started talking about how even as a male, [00:12:00] I knew more about decorating homes and, you know, women's fashion like than you know, most men. So that was kind of like that. And then, you know, we kind of they I give my parents credit because I tell people I've spoken at some groups and stuff as trans men and women. You know, you have to give your parents, especially or your relatives, family, friends if they're [00:12:30] accepting or trying to be. You have to understand that just because you can play remember Red Oh, I remember this trip and I remember that That doesn't mean you're the same person, because when you're Trans, you are not. You don't look, walk, talk, act mannerism. You are a different person. So what? I told when I spoken at groups, um, I've even spoken in groups with the the parents [00:13:00] of gay and lesbian kids. Here's the deal. Whether your child is gay or straight, you as the parents in which would apply to even a friend where you still get to see your friend, That child that male child you raised who shows up for Christmas dinner even though he is gay. That's still your the image of your son. My mother doesn't have that luxury. [00:13:30] Her son doesn't show up for Christmas dinner. I do. And well, yes, I am her child. It's not the child she raised the boy. That whole image, it's the Oh my God and the heels and the, you know, you know, love you Debby stuff, you know? But my mother will say, she said, when Lana came out to us, it is literally like my son vanished in the thin air. She could walk, Talk. [00:14:00] I mean, I mean, I look like Vanna White, but I sound like Barry White. But but the mannerisms and that it was just so natural. I mean, I don't know for me. Maybe because I was doing it secretive, but I didn't have to. Well, how does a girl walk? How does a girl it just when I turned it loose? That's the way it is. And I never looked back. Never felt never No regrets. No. Sorry. Is there um, some kind of grieving process then? When, like, I mean when a parent loses exactly [00:14:30] because you have to. That's the point. You have to let your friends, even your family, especially a parent. There's a mourning period before there can be an acceptance. My mother's son died in 2000, and, you know, three. He's gone. Lana started living. There's, you know, And while she's trying to at that time being, you know, very accepting and stuff there was slipping, you know, with the you know, I was [00:15:00] telling him and he and, you know, I'd bring her a coffee. Oh, thank you. So, and I do I look like you? So I've got, you know, double D boobs. You know, my mother Funny. She was like, Give me a break. I'm trying to, but there's also I mean, they have to miss. You know, my mother took great pride in that, you know? And now I'm this, you know. Gosh, And my father, I went back home and he was working on the car, and my dad's a real country boy. You know, [00:15:30] the big overhauls and the whole. And I asked him if do we have time? And I asked him I could help him working on the car and he said Yes, Hand me the yellow spiral crescent, whatever. This and I was never mechanical that even as a guy, I just you know, Oh, this is broken, you know, hire somebody. I'd get all, you know, blowing smoke and mirrors. But I could cook and decorate, so I said, Oh, which which wrench is that, Pops, he goes, Oh, it's the one with the pretty [00:16:00] yellow hound and I'll get the hell out of here. Go in the house and help your mother cook, so oh, I don't want to be out here anyway, So I'd rather be inside cooking. It's the freedom once it's I'm sure it's same as gay and let and you can be who you wanna be and not. And for us. I'm not saying it's, but it is different, but it's not better or worse. But you know, I can watch the Save the Puppies commercials and start crying and my mother's yelling when you quit taking hormones. [00:16:30] I can't and it's just the freedom to be an act and and not have to put on this front of, you know, Billy Badass, you know, and I was I mean, I created that image so strongly. One friend, his son passed away. Um, he said you could put 1000 guys in a line You would have been the last one ever picked to be because I was just, uh, you know, called for help. I was there, you know? I would. And maybe [00:17:00] because probably I didn't care. I mean, I wasn't on a suicide mission, but I mean, first one in the door or bar fights, let's go. I mean, I didn't care. It beat me up, you know? I mean, I got stab wounds in my body from work and stuff, and I just like, I don't care. I was gonna do whatever had to be done. Now I'm screaming, not the face, you know, not the I'm the first one running down the street. I told my friends that if a fight starts, the only way you're gonna get hurt is you'll get trampled by me. If you get in the wake. [00:17:30] I'm getting the hell out of here. It's so different because that other But the point is the people who can accept me now they think this is the facade. The put off the image. No, honey, that I was like a script, you know, macho guy, the look, the whole, you know, the whole whatever the whole male image of stereotypical that was the creation I had to put that, you know, clown [00:18:00] suit on every day to go to work or whatever. That wasn't me, but it was so convincing. That's why they think this is, you know, But then, on the other hand, I have, um my one, very dear friend. She's a mainstream, a genetically born girl. And she's straight. She's only known a lot and she goes, That's how I think of you. And even though I'm big with this for sure and even her boyfriend, who's a man, he's very accepting. He's like, [00:18:30] I can't even picture you as a guy. The people who don't know Lana, they're like, I can't picture you as a guy. You're such a blond headed ding bat and you know, bombshell Barbie. You know I can't picture you as a guy. I'm like, Good. That's kind of the whole point. So did Lana ever go back to Cutler's workplaces? Oh, actually, yes. It's quite interesting. I had because I was retired, but I still have [00:19:00] what's called a AC CW concealed weapon permit. So I'm packing. I'm she's packing. Um, but I had my identification, my police badge and my police ID And what had the boy picture on it? So I was going to my purse and my one friend, she goes, I'm gonna see your police badge. And she goes, What the hell are you doing with this? I went what She goes? This is the old, you know she was. Honey, you don't look because the police will arrest you. They'll think you stole that. You know, they had [00:19:30] my boy name, and I was like, Oh, my God. So now it's been two years. Well, I'm 100 and £75. I've got, you know, double deep Hooters blonde hair. At the time, I was just down in my shoulders blonde hair and well, I walk in the police station, You know, I've got a little tight sweater, you know, very Lana Turner. Tight sweater and some jean. And up at the front counter is a sergeant that I worked [00:20:00] 10 years with. So I'm holding my badge in my hand. He's all Yes, ma'am. Can I help you big smile. I go I'd like I need a new ID identification and he puzzled and look, he's like, Oh, who are you? And I hand it to him and he opened that ID wallet and went Jesus Christ. And he actually said, Dude, what happened? I said, I'm on the other team now. [00:20:30] He was actually funny. He goes, Oh, we heard through the grapevine, you know, a friend of a friend from the country club. It got back and then he was very he goes, buzz her in because you have a security buzz her in. So I went in and it was funny because he has It's all straight men do. He goes, Hey, I'm not gay, you know, he has to clarify that first, you know, I'm not gay, but damn, you look better than we ever thought. You I guess they thought I'd look like, you know, some [00:21:00] macho guy with a bad wig or something. I don't know, but he was like, Damn, you look better than I ever thought. And I was like, Thanks. And I smile and he was like, Oh, don't do that, because you're gonna creep me out. You know. So they, you know, they kind of rushed me through, Took my picture and off I went, um, the country club early transition. After I said I got the whole out at eBay store. Well, I had a couple, uh, friends, if you will, from the country club. [00:21:30] You know, they're talking, you know, because I hung out in the in crowd on the the patio, and so they're talking all this stuff and da da da And I hadn't been to the country club. Oh, they're talking a bunch of, you know, Ha ha ha. Rumours. And, you know, truck drivers dress and whatnot, OK, it was a Friday night, and I'm sure they have private country clubs, and it's a very, you know, nose up. You know, whatever. Friday night is the big, you know, the bands playing and the whole I put on some five inch [00:22:00] spike heels, a leather mini skirt, a bustier top, full drag queen glama on makeup and strutted my ass right in the It was literally like dead silence. You could have heard it. And I was just like, Well, who's gonna buy a girl a drink and my one friend was like, Oh, come here, honey. You know, And the wires were all staring at me and stuff. And then the next day I walked in and I resigned. And I'm like, You're talking over here. Have a good look. I don't care. And the next day, [00:22:30] my one country club friend, he said, Don't take this wrong but for a woman you got the biggest boss of anybody I've ever seen to do what you're doing to, you know. And that's an important issue to, um to new people transitioning I. I know a lot of girls who've, you know, started and then, you know, and people do they they stop the process for whatever reason, peer pressure, they can't get employment. And [00:23:00] but a thing to think about. And I understand that, you know? I mean, we all have our own path. It's not a race, it's not a contest. It takes you. You know, I have some friends. It takes them three or four years. I mean, here in the States, A lot of the insurances don't cover it. You're 30,000 for the bottom. And if you need face surgery, that might be another 20 you know, breast implants are six to. It's a lot of cash, but for me, I had decided [00:23:30] once I stepped off the porch and became to the world, I never wanted to, you know, cut her during the week. Lana on the weekends, it's Lana. It's cut her because not only is it very confusing to yourself and it's drama when I was for before I went full time and I was basically boy mode during the weekend and living to go to the clubs, you know, on the weekend to come home and take off the, you know, the [00:24:00] image. I'd stay awake and a lot of girls tell the same. So I'd stay awake till 45 in the morning, prancing on the house because I did not want that to go away. And so and But the more important part is if you show you know your or you know Debbie or whoever you are to the world and then you're back, what happens is well, is this real? You know, she can't make up her mind and it said, Oh, it's just a phase And but if you're willing to [00:24:30] walk through hell to get to heaven and face all the snickers and the bullshit and the comments. You know, no one ever said that journey would be easy. They just said it'd be worth it. You know, when you come out on the other side, you know, you know, it's I don't know if you've seen the movie Shawshank Redemption. Andy swam through a river of shit to come out clean on the other side. That's what it's about, you know, you might have to in some. Sometimes it's not all drama. I mean, some girls I know have [00:25:00] transitioned, and they've had especially the younger, you know, the younger you start to transition, your body will accept the hormones and the youth are, I think, in general and more accepting. My little straight cousin has a gay friend and a lesbian friend and, you know, they all hang out together. Not so in my day. You know, you hung out with your own period. You swam through some major shit with your sport. Can you tell me about that? Yeah, I, um [00:25:30] Well, just a little brief history. I am the first woman professional golfer in the United States. That's a transsexual. Um me. Anne Bagger plays on the women's tour in Europe. Um, I think, 05. She started Big Fan, and I was just like, Oh my God, I saw a news thing about her, um, and all she's been through. I just admire her so much. Well, [00:26:00] I was. It's, oddly enough, I was watching in 2006, and Phyllis met from Auckland, New Zealand won the Women's World Law Drive and and she's a sweetheart. I've met her and had beers with her and stuff, um, in the at the World Finals. Well, I saw her winning the the It's called the ReMax World Line drive, and it's not just, uh like a line drive at your local club. These are at the time the 32 longest women in the world compete, and it's televised [00:26:30] and the men's division. They come from Canada and New Zealand Europe, you know, the United States, and there's local qualifying and then your regional qualifying to ask you to get there. You just can't show up, and these girls all hit the ball 300. If you can't have a golf ball 300 yards, I don't know what that is in the metres, but 300 yards you you won't even qualify. So anyway, so I'm watching. I see Phyllis win and and you know I'm 5 ft 11. I'm not petite, but these girls are all [00:27:00] They're not your 5 ft two housewife that can hit. These are big girls. I'm like, Oh my God! So I contacted the It's called the LDA. The lawn drivers of America sent them an email said, Here's who I am, you know, can I compete and post up? I'm two years, you know, part of the United States Olympic Committee. In 2004, they allowed transsexuals. And if you were postoperative surgery wise and you've had two years, um, after surgery to [00:27:30] make sure the testosterone has left your body which that part's kind of BS to me because that mine was no higher or lower, you know? Anyways, so yeah, OK, and I sent them a, uh a nice picture of me, like it's not gonna be, uh, a freak show, if you will. I'm I'm coming there to compete. So they said OK, and it was kind of funny that once heard. He said, Oh, you look nice. I don't think there'll be a problem wrong, because I'm again. I sound like Barry [00:28:00] White. And I'm 5 ft 11, you know. So there was a lot of wood. What is that? You know, the first year. So the first year in, 07, I came in third, the the the year Phyllis won. I mean, the next year, Phyllis was in the in the finals, the Final Four. Phyllis beat the girl she played, and I lost. So I came in third. And there was a lot of, you know, I mean, mothers were pointing me out to their Children in the driving range. You know, I had, you know, people when they announce [00:28:30] you to the to the team area, you know, from Palm Springs, California. Or you know, Auckland, New Zealand. So they called me when I came out of the You come out of a tunnel up to the teen area, some guy threw a drink at me. Another one, you know, hack or whatever you wanna call it spat at me and stuff. So I was like, whatever. And people were booing me. And if I hit the ball off the grid or out of bounds. They were cheering and stuff. It was, um but a lot of the girls befriended me, and [00:29:00] they're like, Yeah, good for you. Phyllis Met is such a sweetheart, and she hands down the world's longest. I don't care if she got beat in 07 and then, actually, I beat Phyllis in the finals in 08, she said. Hands did an interview. She would play against me any day, any time, anywhere. She doesn't fear me because of my past. And she shouldn't. She she I watched her hit a golf ball 350 yards not once but twice in the qualifying rounds [00:29:30] in Nevada. I mean, she's phenomenal, But all the winners who couldn't beat her, they're gonna whine about me. You know, if I wasn't there, you still can't beat her. So I'm really not the issue, you know? Why would that be the issue? So now I came in third, and OK, so as coming in the top four, I got, um, an exemption to come back the next year without all the qualifying. So that year in, um, in 08, I won the desert, which was in June [00:30:00] um, long drive tournament. And so and somebody asked me How come you're not going for the L PGA? You know the ladies tour? I said, Well, they have a a rural female at birth in their bylaws. Even though I was legally a female and went to court and the judge that you are not a female, you are a And that's why I tell people you know after that point, either you are female or you are not. There's no female [00:30:30] ish my birth certificate, said Female. There's, you know, how can you say, Well, yeah, you're all female unless you wanna be sports or you're too tall. You're too big or so. If I was 5 ft one and weighed £98 and transsexual, that'd be OK, you know? So I just stayed and I thought, Well, I'll do the law drive circuit and stuff because I could, you know, win some. I got some prize money for third and I got a golf sponsor who paid me thousands of dollars to play their equipment. So hey, this is kind of like [00:31:00] I'm even though it's drama, but I can play so 08, I won the desert. Do it well, I win the finals. And it was quite interesting that night because the finals were under the lights at night, the wind was blowing 40 miles an hour. Right in our face. Phyllis hits your golf listeners. One moment she hits drivers with eight and nine degrees of loft. She flies the ball very high and very far in the air. But that doesn't work really [00:31:30] well into the wind. It'll knock your ball down. I hit a 7. 5 degree driver. My sponsor was there with a little mini van repair shop in Nevada the night of the that day when the wind was howling, he built me a five degree driver. So come I tried it, you know, in the warm up session. OK, come the finals. I was able to hit the ball under the wind with less loft. [00:32:00] That's the only reason I beat. Jealous. I beat her with technology. She didn't have that option. Her sponsor was back in New Zealand. So I mean, that's how I beat her. I mean, I know it is because she's phenomenal. So anyway, so you know, I went back in. 08, and I won. So with the world championship, you as everybody before me has male or female, you get a five year exemption straight back to the world. This is again. [00:32:30] I'm a professional now, and I took that money that last, too. That's what defines professional from amateur, not ability. It's if you get paid or not. That's the difference. So now I've got five years, got my sponsor. You know, I got I gotta make some extra money. I have my retirement from the police Department, but this was fun, and I'm part of something, even though some don't like me. But some do well in, 09, they can't. The Law Drive Association cancels the women's division, [00:33:00] so they had nothing in 09 2010. They advertise. The women's division is back. It's all on their Web page and everything with new rules and my heart sunk. I went. I know what they're gonna do and I was right. The new rule is females at birth. The thing I take the most pride in even more so than winning [00:33:30] the championship. When we were all finished with the with the litigation, I was sitting in the town car with my attorney and he looked at me and he said, Lana, you not only made history in 2008 being the first, Honey, you just changed it. I was like, Yeah, that's really cool because someday there'll be some young Trans woman you know out there playing on the L PGA [00:34:00] tour and living the dream, living her life. And I said, And she's gonna be out there because a big girl from California went before her and ploughed the road. It's girls like me. With the exception of Jenna Talaba, the beauty queen from Canada, she's gorgeous, even though they tell they hear something. They banned her. What? She has an advantage because she used to be a male in the beauty contest. She has an extreme disadvantage. So what's the [00:34:30] issue there? You know, it's just not wanting to accept us for being trans or gay or whatever. So they you know, they changed their the ruling, and then, uh, she came in 12th. But the point is, is most of the Renee Richards and I'm not, You know, you know, I'm not a beauty queen. I'm not making, but it's girls that are are not, say, as passable that have to fight [00:35:00] the fight. It's just that's the way it is. I mean, you know, I'm tall. I have a deep voice. I have friends who live stealth and what that is for people who don't know is you're so passable. I have a friend like that. You could go into a gay club and they would think you're some straight girl who wandered in. I mean, usually petite, very girly voice. They I have a friend who works at a university college. They don't have an idea. I have one friend who's a nurse in the surgery. They don't have [00:35:30] a clue. I mean, she's that gorgeous. Well, those girls don't, and I don't blame them. They don't bring the attention to themselves, you know, They might come from San Diego up to San Francisco for gay pride and boo hoo. But they're not gonna be in the forefront fighting the fight because their world is gonna come to an end or it's gonna get changed. And I understand that, you know, and that's OK. They don't have to, you know, I did what I did initially being honest. It started as my own fight, and then it snowballed into something [00:36:00] else. And that's fine. Where where do you get your strength from? Because, I mean, there's a whole lot of shit that's coming your way. Uh, you know, I don't know. Maybe it Maybe it's just from I my dad. I remember always to tell me something. He goes, you know, you never break your word to anybody. You just don't give it if you're not gonna stand up for it, you know, don't be a flake. You know, I say, don't be one of them California Flakes. And now I live. You know, I feel like Californians are kind of, you know, whatever you know, [00:36:30] and you always stand up for yourself. You know, you don't ever back up, and I've always stand up for my arm, my friends, you know, and I don't know, it's just it just comes from within. I'm not confrontational, and I know it sounds funny, but, you know, I don't you know, what did they say of what you run over the But if you you know if you have a problem with me or my happiness or a friend of mine's I'm not gonna take it [00:37:00] as I say all the time. Hey, wrong bitch. Wrong day. Don't mess with me, I. I like to tell everybody. Live their own life, you know, and just be who you wanna be and stuff I don't know. It's the in in police work. It's it's it's called the will to survive. It's what they teach you because a lot of police officers, you know, young ones have, you know, they get shot in the arm and not and they stress or, you know, they shock and oh my [00:37:30] God and they die or they're in a in a fight because not everybody happily goes to jail here in America and they they give up as again. They taught us you have to have that will to survive. If somebody punches you in the mouth and knocks out all your teeth, you swallow them and keep on fighting. You never give up until the job is done when you die trying. And that's just the way I've always been. I've never started a fight in my life, but [00:38:00] I've finished many of them. I should also say that it's not only that shit that's coming your way. It's, I mean, some really good stuff because you were telling me earlier about the wild girls Can you tell me about Oh, the wild side, the wild, the wild side Oh my God, yeah, For any of the girls that are we have an organisation. It's a wild side TG dot com. It's, uh, it's a website in a chat room, and it's just, uh, awesome group of girls from [00:38:30] all over the world. Six years ago, 10 friends said, Oh, let's go to Vegas for a weekend. There was no Web page or nothing. Then, well, 10 girls for a weekend. Six years ago this year in May, we had 73 girls and we went for seven days, eight days or so of us. And it is just so fun. It doesn't matter cross dress or pre [00:39:00] what? Whatever. And it was pretty much for an exception of a few of the guys that are good friends, that it's just all girls we hang. We take over the pool, we stay at a smaller hotel, so we we take in it a gay friendly resort, and we take over the pool and at night we go to clubs and you can imagine, like, 60 hookers walking into the New York New York casino. It's It's not one of your, you know, conventions [00:39:30] for information and like, No, this is party central dress agent appropriate. Get the hooker clothes out and we're hit in Las Vegas. Uh, we had security following us around, and we had four girls from Canada, two from England, one from Ireland. One girl came all the way from Switzerland, New York, and it starts with, you know, friends of a friend. Oh, my God, my friend And everybody's Trans and we have a couple. I mean, we have some girls that, like, she's a cross dresser. It's like, What world [00:40:00] does she pass as a guy in? Because I don't see it. And then we have a couple of girls that are really fun. But you know what? You know the look. They need to work on the look a little bit, but we don't care. It doesn't matter. We're all one. We look out after each other, and we we take, uh, party buses down the strip. You know, they have the stripper pole and the party bus. It's all windows. And, you know, sometimes butts and boobs are against the window. You know, it's like, Wow, we're gonna get arrested. But it's just fun. [00:40:30] I mean, nobody does get arrested, but it's just it's just so much fun. You can go in the chat room, usually at night, and there's always somebody in there and we can talk. And you look at the pictures from the gallery, the previous. It's just a great organisation. We're just so close and tears saying goodbye crying And, uh, the week after our event, Um, it's called the the um Viva Wild Side. The Las Vegas [00:41:00] sore is that's, You know what it's called when we go to Vegas. Um, there was 10 of us girls in L a that met up at a club, and I was like, Oh, my God, you know, and seeing each other and hanging out again and Facebooks. And now you got all these friends posting pictures and chatting. It's like belonging to something, even though we only go once a year. But throughout the year you have connections. It's like I had, um, lesbian friends in, [00:41:30] um, Palm Springs and Facebook and, you know, a few gay friends. I had many gay acquaintances but friends And, you know, occasional conversation on Facebook. You know, they're posting a picture. But now it's like my Facebook lights up every day and stuff, cause that's the thing, too. Um, well, I'm not ashamed I'm lesbian. And after being in Palm Springs for two years, I, you know, finally kind of got into [00:42:00] the lesbian group, and they're all nice to me. Um, you know Hey, Lana. Hi, Lana. And then they're, you know, two years of I'm not in the inner circle. I'm on the outer circle. And the reality of the fact is, wow, we're all females. I'm different. That's the bottom line. I told to my very good friend who's gay. I said, Here's [00:42:30] the deal. You could go out and hang out. And with 10, you know, straight men. Yeah, you're all males, but you're different. That's the bottom line. And our farewell dinner in Vegas. Some of the girls were standing up and you know, my God, it was so wonderful. A lot of the first timers I stood up and I was talking and I actually broke down and started crying, and I said Why? I love this so much. I said, [00:43:00] It's because here is the only place where I do not feel different. I feel equal. I'm no better because I'm post op. I'm no, you know, further down the road. As I said, it's not a race, but this is our our community. You know, we should all stand together. You know, it's amazing how, you know, in certain parts of you know, West Hollywood [00:43:30] or in Palm Springs, some gays or some lesbians will look at, you know, me or even some of my friends. And they have to come. I'm like, really? You know, I you know, I. I marched for, you know, for gay marriage with my friends, you know, and stuff I like. Why do we throw shade? That's a drag queen term. But on people in our community, we have to stand together. There's nobody [00:44:00] else gonna stand with us, you know? You got how many you know, mainstream. Yeah, that they're not standing on the corner and they're not marching. And they're not, you know, going to you know, you have activists. I didn't say that. Right Anyways, you know the word I'm trying to say, but you know what I mean. So we have to stand together. You know, it's that cliche. We're united. We stand divided, we fall. It's that simple, you know? And I don't care if you're gay, lesbian, bisexual, well, bisexual. Pick a team. That's my [00:44:30] motto. But whatever. You know, if you wanna, you know, I just don't get it. You know, we have to stand together. You know, I don't makes remarks about, you know, I have some friends that are butcher lesbian, more manly than I ever was, you know? Hey, that's who they wanna be. Go for it. It's amazing when you find those spaces where you can, where it just fits where everything just works, right? I mean, it's just nobody cares, You know? I find [00:45:00] that a lot. I mean, it's very rare. I mean, it's not, you know, I have some wonderful gay friends and wonderful lesbian friends, but occasionally you know you you well, people are people. I guess they have issues, you know, it's like I'm not involved in your issues. So that's my little story. Hey, just, uh, finally, do you have any kind of parting advice for for somebody just starting out on on that journey. [00:45:30] Well, I would say Enjoy the ride number one, because it, you know it happens so fast. Um, well, the better this is gonna sound. Well, if they're younger, you know, the younger the better. But if you're not younger, don't worry about it. And this might sound funny, but believe in that your own path is your path. Don't because so and so did it this way. And, you know, and girls in our community, I wanna tell you how to do stuff and the it will take [00:46:00] you For what it's worth. You know, not everybody's a doctor. Do your research On what? Um, surgeons, You, um, are looking into probably one of the and this might sound silly, but the biggest tips finish your laser or electrolysis on your face before if you can before you go full time. Because you can walk around in boy mode because you have to let stubble grow and stuff and get it. Who cares? Get it taken care of and the girl on the weekend [00:46:30] if you want. But if you wait till you're full time, how do you walk around as a girl with I speak from experience because I didn't do it the way I'm saying to do it. So it was kind of, you know, just some small, um, and and God, it's just so hard to tell somebody, Um, what to do? I would say, Try to find, you know, support group or even on the Internet. Come to the wild side. You know, um, got it. I always tell [00:47:00] girls, just enjoy the ride. You know, it's the liberation and the freedom of finally getting to be you. And you draw the strength from that and the and the ones around you, um, you know, it's not like Are you sure you want to do this? We all pretty much know, You know, when you get to that point when you've had enough And I admire the younger girls who had the strength to do it, you know, and even the the the boys, you know, transitioned to [00:47:30] the FT MS. You know, in my day, people didn't have that. I guess it'd be a peer pressure or just lack of knowledge. We have a wealth of knowledge today. Um, do your research. Do you You know, do your due diligence. You know, like I said, TS road map. Uh, there's a wealth of information out there. You're gonna have to have the strength, and I will tell anybody what? My friend told me who I had. A friend who was just kind of [00:48:00] ahead of me, you know, she got breasts, and four months later, I did, and she started hormones. And, you know, she said, Honey, um, congratulations. But you're about to get on a horse that never stops bucking, and they don't. You know, I'm not saying you're gonna have to put up with it, but it's gonna happen. I don't care how cute you are or how passable you think you are. You're gonna get red clocked, outed. Whatever you wanna call, it's gonna happen. Sometimes people like How do they know? You know what? [00:48:30] Yeah, roll with it. You're you. You know you can't go back. You know, just so what? You know, this is me. Um, just give me my groceries and let me go. And you have to have inner strength. You're gonna That's the bottom line, you know, conviction to be who you want to be.

IRN: 599
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/john_raines_audio_preservation.html
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089274
TITLE: John Raines - audio preservation
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: John Raines
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Castro District; David Lamble; Fruit Punch; GLBT Historical Society; HIV / AIDS; Harold O'Neal; Harvey Milk; John Raines; KSAN; Randy Alfred; San Francisco; Scott Smith; The Gay Liberation Show; The Gay Life; United States of America; White Night riots; activism; archives; community; gay liberation movement; history; legacy; library; media; organisation; preservation; radio; television
DATE: 20 June 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Castro District, Castro District, San Francisco
CONTEXT: In this podcast John talks about preserving audio/visual material for the GLBT Historical Society in San Francisco.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is John Raines, and I have had a career mainly in software development and database and corporate application design. But in a previous lifetime, back in the 19, uh, somewhere back there, um, I worked in radio and, uh, a little bit in television, So I have experience with analogue media and also the conventions of that time. And so, uh, this niche that I've been kind of carving for myself with the society [00:00:30] is really a perfect fit, because I'm able to use the knowledge that I have of analogue media. Combine it with the knowledge I have of digital processing in order to preserve and convert to this vast inventory of materials in the archive. Can we just take a step back? And can you just tell me a wee bit about the historical society the, uh, the, uh GL BT? Well, first it was the G. Then it was the GNL. Then it was the GL BT historical [00:01:00] Society. Um was founded back. I believe in the eighties by Willie Walker. Willie Walker was a nurse who was caring for AIDS patients. And he was ending up with materials of patients, Um, and decided that we needed to save this history. Uh, because these were important documents of this gay culture and San Francisco being one of the centres of gay liberation and then GL [00:01:30] BT culture. After that, um, he thought it was very important to preserve this material. So he started having stacks and stacks in his living room and eventually with community support and, uh, uh, the support of the city of San Francisco as well. Um, he and his successors were able to develop it into a full blown archive. And now museum. And when did you first get involved? I got involved, uh, in 2009 as a volunteer [00:02:00] at an exhibit that was mounted at the corner of Castro on 18th Street was really a small storefront and a fairly constrained exhibit. But I found it very compelling. And among the artefacts that were there was the blood soaked suit of Harvey Milk that he was murdered in. And that was a very moving and, uh, impactful experience to see that. Certainly that's true. Of the many visitors who were there, everyone commented on that, [00:02:30] but I I was It struck me that yes, we have a history. And, yes, it's important to preserve. And not only that, but communicate outward to people. So who hit the foresight of keeping Harvey Milk's suit? I? I don't know for sure. Um, it probably was in the care of Scott Smith, his lover. I imagine there are a tremendous number of artefacts of Harvey milks at the archive. When Scott [00:03:00] Smith died, his estate, which included a lot of materials of Harvey's, went in two different directions. Uh, most of the written materials went to the Hormel Collection at the San Francisco Public Library, and most of the the artefact the well, 3D is kind of a bad way to put it. But you know what I mean. The, um the, uh, clothes the objects, yes, went to the, um, Historical Society, and it's a fascinating [00:03:30] collection. One can walk back into the archive and open a box. And here are a pair of Harvey Milk's jeans. Here is ha. Regrettably, only half of the canvas Castro camera sign in another box. Um, it's a story that, uh, Levi's had an exhibit about a year ago. They're also a benefactor of the society, and they asked for a pair of Harvey Milk jeans to show in their, uh, lobby. So we walked in and found three pair, and, uh, we you know, we check them out, we [00:04:00] check the size just to make sure they were plausible, because sometimes the provenance of these artefacts is not entirely clear. There's often a lot of, um, a lot of, uh, scurry and disorganisation at the time of someone's passing. And so some of these collections are not that well organised when they come in. So when Harvey Suit was exhibited and you were a volunteer there, what what kind of comments from people coming through were there. [00:04:30] They almost always started with Wow because it brings the the tragedy of it so close, literally close to your eyes, to see, to see the clothes, to see the blood stains to to feel the impact of what happened. Um, it was also staged a little bit in the back. In a fairly good theatrical fashion. [00:05:00] It was behind a scrim, so it was kind of a surprise. As you turned a corner amongst other fairly lighthearted and interesting artefacts, you would suddenly be confronted with this glass case with this crumpled brown suit and wonder why there's a crumpled brown suit with darker brown stains on it in a case, and then read the card and find out You know what you're seeing. So from volunteering in that exhibition What What was your next involvement with the society? [00:05:30] Well, we had a series of DVD S running on a on a, uh uh, display a video display in the window that were, uh, quite disorganised. Um, So what I did was I took them and I edited them down to smaller chunks and put a little more branding. Put our name in the name of the society in it. So they had a little more of a context. Um, because I felt it was important that people realised they weren't just seeing random home movies passing by. But this was part [00:06:00] of an effort mounted by the historical society, the audio visual holdings of the society. Can you describe what what they encompass? They encompass quite a variety of media and time periods, data. And when we say, uh, media, I'm talking about moving images and audio. There's a lot of photography as well in the archive. Um, but the moving images go back to the forties. Uh, one of our most intriguing and [00:06:30] and unprocessed collections is of regular and Super eight film by a fellow named Hal O'Neill. He was an enthusiastic amateur, extensively edited, made Inter titles for his movies and documented his life as a gay man beginning in the forties. And there's a treasure trove, and only a few reels have ever been transferred. But they uniformly gain a tremendous amount of attention whenever we show any of that stuff. So that's [00:07:00] one. That's probably the oldest that we have ranging up through, I would say, probably the nineties uh, a woman named Karen Everett who made a documentary on Marlon Riggs. The black poet, um, spent quite a lot of time with him about a year before his death, and she donated all of her raw footage to the archive. So I think that's probably the latest collection that I'm aware of that we have. There are bits and pieces to There are some very extensive collections of primarily audio [00:07:30] tapes or videos, and but there are also videos sprinkled among the personal collections of other other, uh, grantors. And what about the audio side of things. What kind of audio collections do you have? Well, we have a fairly sizable phonograph Or do you say gramaphone? I forget which the you know, there's the phonograph. Was the cylinder originally? The gramophone was the disc, so it's properly a gramophone record. Uh, we have anyway, those flat black [00:08:00] things that people don't know about anymore or they're becoming popular again. We have a fairly good collection of that. A lot of that stuff is in wide release, but there are a few rare titles, including some 70 eights, uh, from the forties of a fellow named Ray Bourbon who was a very campy, very campy comedian. Um, we also have quite a lot of, uh, open rail tape, the extensive, uh, Randy Alfred collection of radio Masters, Um, ranging to, uh, cassette tapes [00:08:30] as well. Well, actually, it's a San Francisco gay men's chorus collection that had the largest range of, uh, technologies in their audio collection, which contained open reel tape, compact cassettes, something called DTRs digital tape recording system, which was briefly popular in the nineties. And, um, and what's it called? It's the A [00:09:00] Ali A. Now the last two AD and DTRs are based on video tape media. Uh, DTRs was based on high eight video cassettes, and AD was based on super VHS cassettes. But they both took advantage of the hill recording system to record multi track digital sound. So getting those transferred was, uh, yeah, I'm sure we're gonna get into the technology. But, um, that was a challenge to find machines to play this variety of formats back on. And [00:09:30] you should hear about the video. But I know that's not No, no, no. Talk to me about the video. There's there's also, you know, video tape with everything from one inch, which was in the eighties was the professional format, um, to a VHS to a beta max to beta cam, which was a professional format to, uh, digital beta can. And, curiously enough, open reel videotape, which is a very nasty substance from the seventies. Open [00:10:00] reel tape. Well, if we get into this too, I have a question. But open reel tapes are take a lot of work. Can you talk to me about the kind of collection policy with regards to the media items? Because I'm thinking, does the media item have to have some queer or gay focus in terms of, you know, a gay person speaking or a gay topic? Or is it the donor? That's important? This is always the tough question, isn't it? What? What's important, what to keep? Generally, [00:10:30] I would say yes, There needs to be some kind of GL BT scope to the media. Um, either it is about some GL BT topic. If it's merely produced by a gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender person, that's really not enough to qualify it to keep it in our collection unless that person, unless [00:11:00] it really informs something else. And that person is an important GL BT history figure historical figure. Um, because we have collections of quote unquote ordinary people as well, which is important. You know, too. But I have come across some tapes that have no GL BT oriented content on them or they're commonly available on another. You know, if someone collects video tapes, we might record what was in their collection, and we might want to know what was of interest to them. But we're [00:11:30] not necessarily going to hang on to copies of tapes that are commonly available on Amazon these days for example, unless unless they were extremely rare, then we might hold on to one. There's a huge collection of pornography, you know, mostly on the film huge collections of film pornography. And, uh, we don't We don't know quite what to do with that because, you know, sex is definitely part of the GL BT realm. But, um, um, there are also archives that do collect [00:12:00] erotica and focus on that. And I know that sometimes we do donate materials, send them to other places where they seem better suited. You mentioned Randy Alfred, can you tell me about his collection? Yeah, The Randy Alfred Collection is quite extensive. It encompasses 256 reels of tape, takes up about 23 bankers boxes of space and is [00:12:30] wonderfully meticulously organised. Which is why I made it my first project because I knew I wasn't going to have to battle any inherent disorganisation. He produced the show as a public affairs programme, and at that time there was a governmental regulation that broadcasters produce and document a certain amount of such programming. So with each tape, there was also documentation of exactly who the guests were. It it was really a dream archivist dream. Everything is fully documented. [00:13:00] So what was the show? It was called the Gay Life. And, uh, it began in the late seventies, probably around 1978 I wanna say and ran until 1984. And Randy was the host and producer from 1979 to 84. And in addition to those programmes, his collection also includes a few other tapes from the radio station, uh, including, um, an unaired interview with Harvey Milk and some very charming early [00:13:30] programmes called the Gay Liberation Show from 1973 which also aired on Is this the first kind of documented gay broadcasting in the San Francisco area? I would say no because a predating, uh, Randy show was a programme called Fruit Punch, which aired on KPFK, the Pacifica public station in Berkeley. And Fruit Punch was a collective of producers who had a weekly show. Um, I believe beginning earlier [00:14:00] in the seventies than around 78 is when the gay life really got ramped up. So I want to say they started much earlier, probably around 73 74. I don't know for sure, because I've only done a few of their tapes from another collection, and that was, um, only four boxes. And when you say do tapes from whatever collection What What are you doing? What? What? Well, converting them to digital form. So, uh, playing them back, getting them to play [00:14:30] back and turning them into digital files that can be preserved and copied almost indefinitely, as can most computer data. So it's a preservation thing that you're doing. Is it also an access thing? Absolutely, Absolutely. Um, you know the old days of hunting through a tape forward. Forward. Guess guess Stop. Play. No. Forward. Forward. Guess Stop. Play. No. Rewind, rewind, play. You know, it takes an amazing amount of time compared to these days. Click, click, click, click. [00:15:00] You find the spot you want in a digital file, so access is a huge part of it. Preservation, though, as well, because some of these tapes now are approaching about 40 years of age. It's kind of amazing. Some of them are, are still in good shape. So can you describe, uh, the shape of Randy's collection in terms of physically, what was Randy's collection? In excellent condition Properly. All the tapes were boxed, stored upright. The hubs, Um, [00:15:30] and just in stellar condition, I think I only had to heat treat three or four, maybe five reels out of 250 tapes. What is that? Well, yeah, You may or may not be familiar with the phenomenon of sticky shed, which is not nearly as exciting as it sounds. It entails the absorption of water by the tape. Over time, there was a formulation that was created in the late seventies that was superior [00:16:00] in many ways. But what they the engineers didn't know at that time was that over 10, 2030 years time, this new formula would absorb water from the environment and become so sticky on playback that we could bog, literally bog the machine down, the tape would just stop, and one winds up with great black gobs of goo that require gallons of alcohol and stronger solvents to get off the machine. But the real problem is getting the tape [00:16:30] to play so you can preserve it. So the, uh, the cure, which was discovered by Amex rightly because they were the the culprits behind this new formula was to treat the tape with a low heat about 100 and 30 degrees or so Fahrenheit, um, for anywhere from 8 to 20 hours, depending on the condition of the tape to make it playable, at least temporarily, so that it can be transferred. So you put it into an [00:17:00] oven or how how do you do that? Well, um, my favourite, uh, machine. These are the trade secrets now is the SCO food dehydrator, which makes excellent jerky and dried fruit. By the way, I might say, but it makes even better baked tapes. It's just the right round shape for a reel, and it has stacking trays, and it has a very even thermostat at a low temperature. And it doesn't cost a jillion dollars, which helps, uh, what puts the tapes in the dehydrator? You turn it on [00:17:30] for however long it takes. Tapes from the seventies now are taking, uh, a good 12 hours to become at least to become playable. Sometimes more 12, 12 to 18 hours, I would say. And when they become playable, does it mean that you only get one shot at capture? No, no. They generally will remain playable for Well, this is not well documented because most of us play the tape and then throw the damn thing back in the box and forget about it after that. But, um, it appears that they will remain playable [00:18:00] for a matter of weeks. Maybe depending on it's not a permanent fix. The the the they suck the water back up again. You know, the the the the biggest danger is trying to play a tape that has this problem and damaging the, uh, the magnetic emulsion because that is the recording. And if you damage that, you've destroyed the actual recording so that when you put a a tape of unknown provenance on the machine, um, you wind it very carefully at first, [00:18:30] uh, to see that it's not going to be sticky. Although there are other signs when you take it out of the box, it may have a certain odour. Um, if it's back coated with a carbon black back coating, that's a good sign that it might be a problem if it seems to stick as you try to unspool it by hand. It doesn't it doesn't hang straight off the reel. That's another possible clue. On the other hand, uh, tapes of the very first public concert planned public concert by the [00:19:00] Gay Men's Chorus, which was 1978 not their impromptu concert on the assassination of our remote but their planned concert. Those tapes of 78 I put them on the machine and it sounded like they were made yesterday played perfectly well. So one never knows you mentioned damaging the the the audio, the content. What kind of damage can be done to a tape? Well, again, The main problem is, um, damaging, destroying, removing, obliterating [00:19:30] the magnetic emulsion, which is the side of the tape that faces the heads and contains the actual magnetic encoding of the recording so it can it can come off. It sounds like nothing. It sounds. It's a drop out or it's a loss of it's a It's a loss of audio. I've only found one tape so far that was so badly damaged that I could not play it and it was blocked. A blocking is when the layers of tape have adhered to each other, layer by layer. This usually occurs when a tape is stored in very high heat and humidity, [00:20:00] and a tape like that is very very difficult to salvage. You know, I'm not. If this was the, uh, lost Elvis studio session, maybe it would be worth a million dollars to, you know, take a year to take this tape apart to make it play. But, um, it takes that kind of heroism with a tape like that if it's blocked. The sticky shed problem is usually not doesn't stick to itself so badly, but to the machine. Another problem, of course, is what they call diction, [00:20:30] which is kind of a sticky friction with the machine and and transmits mechanical squeals and actually messes up the recording. So you're a squealing pitch with the tape that's a related phenomenon to sticky shed. Generally, Uh, that's a loss of lubricant, which is more difficult to treat. Sometimes that can be, um, handled by playing back in a cold temperatures, so he would literally take the tape and the machine into a refrigerator [00:21:00] and and get it to play at 40 degrees. Everything's at 40 degrees, and it will play. That's an extreme measure. We've been talking about tape, and we haven't actually I don't think defined what tape is because I think for a lot of people they'll be thinking, Oh, cassettes, you know, small tape. Can can you describe the the tapes that, um, that Randy has deposited What kind of tapes? Well, I bash open the cassette and pull out the little tiny reels and [00:21:30] all that naked ribbon of plastic is the tape. It is a long ribbon of polyester. Generally, the earlier tapes are made of, um, acetate. But all the tapes I'm working with are polyester, and it is, um, for radio. It was a quarter inch wide, and that's two track stereo, and it's coated on one side with a soup of very finely ground magnetic metallic particles [00:22:00] mixed with lubricants and glues. And who knows what and that's painted on one side of the tape. And that's what actually holds the magnetic imprint of the recording. And then the other side is either, uh, just plain polyester. It looks shiny like tape, or it's back, coated with a car kind of a carbon black process, which helps the tape move more smoothly on the reel and dissipates static electricity. But it's also the culprit [00:22:30] in many of these sticky tapes. So how much tape would you need to record, say a a 58 minute programme? Well, yeah, In general, a 10 inch reel of tape will hold an hour at a standard thickness of tape. And there's a thinner kind of tape that allows you to put more tape on the reel and that will hold generally about 90 minutes of material. A smaller, a seven inch reel. Behold about 30 minutes at that standard. Thicker size. You know consideration is the hardiness of this [00:23:00] tape. The thinner it gets, the more susceptible it is to breaking and open reel tapes. In contrast to con cassettes, open reel tapes, in contrast to cassettes, are subject to so much handling and potential damage and contamination. It becomes a real concern, So Randy's collection actually would would take up quite a lot of physical space. I'm I'm guessing. Yes, well, all of these, um, tapes, which are what, maybe a half inch or less thick since the reels because we [00:23:30] have the aluminium reels or plastic reels with the tapes in. Boxes are then stored up right in, uh, bankers boxes, and there are 23 of those in his collection. But that's nothing because we have another collection of 43 boxes that I've been too afraid to open so far, but I'll get around to it. And what are they of? They were produced by a man named David Lamb, who was a radio producer for many years and also worked on this fruit crunch programme. So I'm very curious [00:24:00] about the contents, but that is a very far ranging and a less predictably organised collection. I've opened a few boxes and seen reels tossed in at Unboxed at odd angles with bits of tape unspooled here and there, and that's very just simply very time consuming to handle that material. The other collection I did, the Kevin Burke Collection. Many of those reels were stored in what we call pancake form, in which the tape is wound about a hub but not placed [00:24:30] within real flanges, simply carefully taped together and put on a piece of Styrofoam, maybe in a box, and one has to take that and assemble it into a metal reel in order to play it. And if you weren't quite careful, yes, it's the equivalent of 52 card pickup, except you have an hour's worth of tape that all in a very spectacular fashion cascades to the floor. I could tell by the look on your face that you're not totally unfamiliar with this phenomenon. [00:25:00] So pancakes are an example of the, um the intense labour that can be required of open real tape. How long would it take you to go from start to finish on a tape in terms of not only digitising the say hour long programme, but actually documenting it and looking at the tape box and and looking at all the details, I would say at a minimum, two hours. Best case. And that includes the one hour of real time required to actually transfer [00:25:30] the, uh to play them the real back in real time. Um, ranging anywhere from there up to 18 hours, 20 hours if the reel needs to be incubated, heat treated to make it playable. Naturally, I'm able to do something else while the reel is, uh, in the baker. But it can take that long to actually get through the whole process of playing the tape back, creating an archival master documenting it, creating a service copy [00:26:00] and storing it in some permanent fashion. What is an archival Mazda an archival master is the original digital conversion of the tape. It is meant to be as faithful as possible to the original, so it contains no extraneous material, no artefacts. I try to set the tape up for the best playback of the entire tape, and I make no adjustments during the playback. If I find that my levels [00:26:30] are I've guessed very badly and the levels are way off, I will generally stop and go back and start the whole thing again because I don't want to introduce anything into that master that is me fiddling with a knob and not the actual recording. So we want that to be a faithful, very faithful record. And that's at whatever the full fidelity of of our chosen digital format is, which for these radio tapes has generally been stereo at 48 kilohertz, sample rate and 24 bit sample depth [00:27:00] from that, Then we'll create a smaller file. Since those files can be quite large, we'll create a smaller file, which we call a service copy, and that will be a compressed, um, MP four, for example, or or MP3 file. How hard is it to scope a digitization project like like Randy's audio items. I mean, how how do you work out how long this is going to take you? And how long did it take you? In the end, you you can plan [00:27:30] to a certain extent, but there are always surprises. I, I think I chose again. I chose Randy's collection because it was so well organised, and I sensed that I was going to have a few surprises and I was right about that. But in other cases, you know you can you can. You can pull out a tape that has 30 splices, and they all blow when you wind the tape because the glue is dried up. So then you're replacing 30 splices, and suddenly this tape takes you an extra hour, and the slice is a cut [00:28:00] on the tape. Yes, yes, quaintly enough, they used to, and I did it myself. Actually. Take a razor blade and cut the tape to make edits and tape it together with a little piece of adhesive tape. And the glue in that tape can simply dry up after 30 odd years, especially if the tape is being heat treated on top of it and I've had a few tapes where I've had to go back and replace However many splices there were, uh, to make the thing playable again, or you or you find tapes without leader [00:28:30] where the recording begins at the very, very end of the tape, and then you've got to put leader on it so you can win thread it in the machine so you aren't missing any material on, you know, on playback. Um, but I I'm I'm going off your question now, which was basically looking at how how do you scope it, right? How do you and and actually how long it would take ultimately? Well, I again the scoping one tries to set general bounds, but there are always surprises. I have learned [00:29:00] to do my best, but then to just pick up a box and start pulling wheels out, and if I know that I'm gonna be able to convert the entire collection, then I'm not going to worry that much about the precise order in which I bring out the material. I will just reach in and pull out another reel and, you know, have at it because I know I'm gonna go through all of it. Um, Randy's collection. Well, I got into a rhythm of doing about six [00:29:30] programmes a day because it was so well organised. You know, I would do the documentation while the tape was playing back. I had an hour to look at the other tapes and and look at the the written docs and transfer them. So it was a pretty compact operation. I don't remember how long it actually took. I could find out for you. I don't remember. It is I have all of my dates recorded that I actually transferred the material it took me from I would say march [00:30:00] to about April, maybe 2. 5 months or so, working rather steadily five days a week or so on that. I made it my job for that couple of months because there's so much tape, I figured Well, this has to be my job to pass through it. And so that was all volunteer work? Yes. So I would be there at the archive that transfer I made at the archive, I obtained [00:30:30] a reel to reel professional reel to Reel Player made by Otari, the last manufacturer of open reel tape machines. In fact, it was only one model on from the last machine that I worked with back in the eighties, so I was quite familiar with it. I brought that in in my computer and my, um, external sound card. And they did all the transfers right there at the archive. I would be there every day. That's a huge commitment. Yeah, [00:31:00] but, you know, it's, um it was almost like working in radio again. You know, when When you work in radio and you're the, um they don't call you a board operator for nothing. Yeah, sometimes it could be a bit boring while while you're playing tapes back for an hour or two. I kind of got into that rhythm. Although I enjoyed listening to the tapes. You know, I did not. I'll tell you a secret and say that I did not listen to every single second of every single tape. I would say I listened to the vast majority of all the recordings, but sometimes I did. [00:31:30] If I felt the tape was was doing quite well and these tapes were all in such great shape, I might, um, run out for a bite. But Of course, I always, um, went through the files visually, which is something we can do now with the digital recordings. And if anything stood out, I could go see if there was a blip or a problem. But, you know, these tapes were in such great shape the machine. I never came back to find the machine eating a tape or anything disastrous like that. Other collections I would not walk away from at all. I would be there all the whole time. [00:32:00] How hard was it to source a tape machine? I'm I'm I'm guessing that I I'm not sure when tape stopped being used in broadcast situations, but, uh, tape machines. When did they last get made? I believe Otari was still selling machines through the mid two thousands. So I Yeah, I would like to say, uh, probably mid to late too. I don't know for sure, but I have the impression they were still available for again from this one manufacturer [00:32:30] out of, you know, a number of manufacturers Sony, um, and and the Germans invented magnetic tape recording, by the way. And also which is the big American firm, Um, out of all of them. Only Otari was left and they made new machines up through, Let's say the mid to late two thousands. And that was it. And so how How hard was it for you to source? Well, you know, I, um, eventually found one through eBay [00:33:00] and using the knowledge that I had, I could ask the right questions. And I found a machine that was in rather good condition. It was a professional machine, but it had been in a hobbyist studio, so it did not have a tremendous amount of use. It wasn't abused like a broadcast machine would be. It was a bit customised that the, um, XL R connections have been replaced with RC A jacks. So I The first thing I did was rip those out and put proper XL R jacks back, back in for balanced audio. Other [00:33:30] than that, it just needed, uh, a little bit of a calibration and, uh, lubrication. And it was ready to go, you know, for 300 hours of transfers after that did quite well. You were saying earlier that you were noting some material down as you transferred. So, like I I'm assuming things on tape boxes and a bit of documentation about the recordings. Yes, Randy's collection was superbly documented. There were actually rundown sheets inside each [00:34:00] box that detailed all of the guests and their titles. So all I really had to do was transcribe that information. Were you doing any other kind of summary or keywords of actually content that was going through? Was that part of the job? No, I have not been doing that, Um and that's that is an important task, especially with our other media, which is not nearly so well documented. But I think that once the material is transferred, it becomes much easier to share it and invite other people into the process, [00:34:30] especially people who were around during this era. And that's really the next step for us is to bring some of these people in and look at the material and identify what's happening and create well, then, beyond that, more of the librarian type role is to create Indices. I really would love to see us have a subject index for the archive because we see the same people and events and places turn up over and over. So the the the collection is digitised what are what [00:35:00] are some of the outcomes Now that you have digital files of of the audio? Well, that really is the good question. I was asked this frequently while I was making this huge effort. What are you going to do with all of this? You know, what are we going to do with it now that it is so easy to to play back? So we did decide to make it publicly available by uploading it to the Internet archive, which is a free, completely free parking space. Really, it still took a huge amount of time because we did not have a [00:35:30] fast upload pipe. So it took quite a few days even to get these compressed service copies uploaded. But once we did, I built built a Web portal in a database, a searchable database for downloading the material, and that's turned out to be a pretty big hit. I think we've had Oh, I saw the number the other day, something in the order of 9000 downloads in the last couple of years of this material, so it's not on the word. It's not like YouTube, but it's pretty good. [00:36:00] Were there any considerations given to the fact that these were radio programmes like one off broadcast radio programmes from the seventies that are now being made available to anyone in the world at any time. And I'm just wondering if there were people in those recordings that maybe didn't want to be on the Internet, Was there any Did you come across any of those kind of issues? No, I really didn't. You know, uh, we owned the recordings outright [00:36:30] because Randy retained copyright when he was normally as a producer. You'd be working for hire, and the station would own your the results of your work. But Randy made a different arrangement, and he retained the, uh, copyright. So he was able to do that to us. So we actually do own the copyright in the recordings. Now there are a few of the usual stickier questions of Are we playing someone's musical composition? Is he playing someone's musical composition? We don't necessarily have all the documentation to show, [00:37:00] you know that we own We don't necessarily have the documentation to show on all the subsidiary copyrights. You know, when you play that back on a radio station, the station has a blanket licence, which enables them to play any pretty much any music they want. But, um, no. So far. Well, you know how it is. You proceed on a complaints basis, right? After all, we're not out here. We're offering it for free. You know, we're not trying to make a lot of money. We're in a nonprofit place, so we haven't run into any issues. And you're talking about people not wanting to be [00:37:30] made available. Well, you know, they were willing to go on the radio and let thousands of people in the Bay Area hear them anyway at one time. And I and I wonder for quite a number of these recordings, the people actually in them have probably passed on and and III. I wonder if that is also an issue in terms of, you know, whether family and friends are actually hearing these recordings for the first time in maybe 2030 years. Have you had any feedback [00:38:00] from from people in in that regard? But I simply haven't Well, you know, the thing about the about the eighties is that, as as the AIDS epidemic was spreading, there's just simply a whole generation of people who are missing, you know, they and all their friends are gone. It's a big gap. So not all of them, certainly. But, um many, many of them. And the material that I've [00:38:30] been working with both audio and video is primarily from the eighties, a little bit of seventies, but primarily eighties. It's hard. It's really hard to estimate the impact of of that epidemic on, um on the culture. And maybe that's another reason the history is so important to preserve because a lot there there's this great discontinuity. So many people are gone. We're we're bridging in a way, since they're not available to carry it forward, many of them. [00:39:00] So in listening through the 256 episodes of Of the Gay Life, what have been some of the most memorable audio moments for you? As I mentioned, these very early, uh, tapes, which are not part of the gay life proper but are out of another series, were very curious to me. The Gay Liberation Show, which was, uh, done by a couple of guys who also had a book to sell, called the Gay Liberation Handbook. But the whole, uh, sense [00:39:30] of the times. One of the shows has a bathhouse ad. A radio ad for a bathhouse on it. Um, that was very striking. An interview with divine I don't know if there are tapes When Devine was here in town, Um, an interview with gay male hustlers working Polk Street in the early seventies. I guess it's always a matter of distance that which is most distant from you, seems somehow quaint and precious and that which is closer to you, it doesn't seem so special. And then you meet people younger [00:40:00] than yourself who suddenly think that now is special, right, you know. So I meet some of the older gentleman to Loretta. They It's like, Oh, you show this poke Street whatever. Anyway, I digress. The other thing that that really strikes me is from the gay life proper, and that is definitely Randy's, uh called whitenight black dish. And I really enjoy it because it captures a very historic time around here. When people were rising up in protest [00:40:30] against the acquittal or the near acquittal of Dan White, his conviction on much lesser charges than he deserved, and also it's it's expressed in this really wonderful artistic way with music dramatisation, documentary clips. That's the sort of thing that radio can do at its best instead of just being a jukebox. So, um, I wish I'd heard more of that on Randy's programme. But, um, that really stands out to me. [00:41:00] I would say also some of the live event recordings, especially of the The Nights of Candles, which were the annual memorials of Harvey Milk's assassination. There's some very compelling material there as well, but we did recently did a radio show in San Francisco to play a lot of these historic clips. Um, and so I pulled out a few things that stood out to me. Um, yeah, I think it was a lot of the documentary recordings of events, especially [00:41:30] protest events, live unpredictable audio that stand out to me. Randy did a lot of programmes that were very important in a documentary sense, a lot of public meetings, but which tend to be, uh, drier in terms of their immediate impact when you listen to them. Randy was fond of a psychiatrist who had a theory about how psychiatry got Dann White off the hook, and he [00:42:00] used that interview a number of times. That was one challenge in transferring the programmes. I will admit what Randy did do as a good producer would do was not rerecord the information which degrades it. When you're working with analogue and digital, you're gonna make a perfect copy. But in analogue, you can never make a perfect copy. He actually cut out that interview as well as this white knight black dish. He would cut it out and move it to a different show so I would have the rundown for the show and be missing material [00:42:30] from the real. And I finally had to put together He usually made a note about where it went. But then I would get to the next stop and say, Oh, I was pulled from there and went to the next one. So what I did do, I'm trying to I don't remember right now. If I messed with the archival masters or not, I don't think I did. I know for the listen. I think I left the archival masters as they were again because they should reflect exactly what's on that reel today. But for the listening [00:43:00] copies, I did go back and lay in the material that had been in that programme. So it sounds like the programme that was broadcast. One of the things I've noticed in doing preservation projects on, uh, lesbian and gay radio shows earlier than my time is I suddenly get really, um, drawn into the issues that are being discussed and sometimes get really inflamed and and and, you know, angry for the issue and always have [00:43:30] to at the end of the day, kind of distance myself from that and say that actually, this happened 30 years ago, you know, it's not going to help getting inflamed about it. Um, did you find yourself walking out at the end of the day after hearing six hours worth of material in that kind of state? Well, yes and no, I would say inflamed. No, because I'm That's simply not easily inflamed. Um, but stirred definitely [00:44:00] stirred and also cast into kind of a time travel, especially when working with a large collection that spans a number of years. I did feel like the time traveller on an accelerated schedule, because here I was going through six weeks a day of this programme. Um and I would become familiar with the, uh, with the issues and a person would pop up again and I would think, Oh, no. Here he is again with beating his old drum. So it was kind of it was like being [00:44:30] there, But it was an accelerated trip through time. Yeah, definitely. I felt like I was in that I was somewhere in time to make a bad movie reference. Um, but in Flint are are, really, you know, angry. No, I don't think so. I mean, I have to say I wasn't angry all the time, but there were there, were certain. I mean, there were certain issues where you know, if if if there was a, um, say a legal issue in terms of adoption or or same sex partnerships [00:45:00] or whatever, Um, you know, it would really kind of rile you up. Well, you know, the the this time period was not as full of in your face anti gay people as it had just been, You know, we're talking about, um, Anita Bryant and the moral maturity, which is really the late seventies. This collection really picked up a little bit after that. So I wasn't encountering so much of that, and Randy was not again. He's in San Francisco. San Francisco, even as early [00:45:30] as the eighties was becoming more insulated from that kind of opposition simply because it had become a magnet for gay people. And there was a lot of solidarity. By no means were there no, um, homophobes around. But it was not like many other places in the world at that time, so I maybe that's reflected in it. What was being debated and discussed here were, um, issues of somewhat higher orders than just don't beat us up. You know, for example, being able to teach or [00:46:00] even to get married. There were shows in the early eighties with guests saying we're sure that gay marriage is right around the corner and this is 30 years ago. So that did strike me how much and how little progress we've made in in different ways over 30 years time. And what about in terms of voices and how people speak and the language they use did that. You know, I did not notice that much difference from the eighties to today, and maybe that reflects on [00:46:30] me as well, because I was an adult in the eighties, I will say the seventies programmes, the the 73 programmes and definitely some of the language I remember as a child but does stand out to me when they talk about with a completely straight face. And they say, Well, that's your trip earlier, that was really a far out experience. You know that suddenly there's this great hippie ring to it. Um, that did stand out to me a little bit. Trip was a word which was very popular around [00:47:00] 73 possibly a drug reference. So now what is your next preservation project? Well, I'm just finishing, actually. Working on a very huge video collection approximately. Well, I don't know how many hours, but it's been about 700 cassettes of a professional video production library again, mostly from the eighties. I'm finishing that up. Um, [00:47:30] I'm probably going to go do a little more video right away at the, uh um the Marlon Riggs Collection that I spoke of in terms of audio. Really? The the the big nut here is the David Lambo collection, which is a very important and very large and, um, and possibly fairly difficult collection to get through, so I want to get my machine rehabbed a little bit before I take that on. It is amazing [00:48:00] how hardy audio tape machines are especially compared to video tape machines. But, um, yeah, that collection. I have a feeling there's a lot of material in there which may or may not be in our scope. I believe this man donated his entire library of, of open, real tapes and he worked as an arts producer and arts critic. So we will approach some of these fine lines that we talked about before. Do we keep this merely because this is a gay man reporting you know, about something that is possibly [00:48:30] unrelated? You can always make an argument. It's related if it happened in San Francisco, I guess. But, um, we're gonna be visiting that and again. It's simply the labour intensiveness of open rail tape, um, handling of the tape, the sticky she problem, the splices and such that make that really a huge project. 43 cartons of tapes. But some of them are quite intriguing going back into the early seventies and these fruit punch programmes that I would really more of the that [00:49:00] um far out trippy stuff that I want to hear. And I admit, you know, I. I like doing this not only because it's important, but I also, um, again feel kind of like a time traveller. And I'm delighted to hear different things and hear different voices and and learn about other times. Do you have any help in this? I'm thinking that not only do you have to have the right equipment to do these transfers, but you also need skilled people. Um, so far and now, you know, it's, um [00:49:30] it's a hard process to to come up with AAA Division of Labour for, I suppose, to an extent, Um, I suppose one could have one person who is preparing tapes and doing the transfers and then creating the the service copies or that sort of thing. There's not a lot of opportunity to to, um to have a workforce, in part because, um, it's hard to come by machines. You know, if I could get 10 Otari that are in good condition and get [00:50:00] 10 or 20 people to help, well, then we'd be done with it much more quickly. But that equipment simply isn't available, and also the It's the experience and the expertise, and some of this stuff is quite difficult to work with. And so having been through a few 100 hours of it really makes a difference to know what to look for. And, of course, the last thing we ever want to do is damage a tape. You know, we always want to err on the side of caution. So if there seems like there's gonna be any problem, and I'm very happy to say that I have only [00:50:30] barely heard a few seconds of tape here and there on reels that turned out to to be, have surprises in them. Sometimes you know, uh, people put different brands and types of tape on the all in 1 to 1 reel, and you don't always You can't always see it, so you'll be zipping through and think, Oh, this is a perfectly fine reel. I can rewind this, and suddenly you'll run into a patch of sticky tape so I can never I can never wind at full speed with these old tapes unless I know exactly who I'm working with. It's that kind of thing that makes it difficult to pull in [00:51:00] a force of 20 volunteer volunteers and just have at it. We don't wanna rip things up. So this is all about preserving the past, and I'm wondering and we've we we touched on it a wee bit, but I'm just wondering, Does the society have any programme to bring in material that is being created now so that things that are happening nowadays are deposited in a timely fashion? No, we really don't. As far as I know. [00:51:30] No, we don't. We we pretty much have waited for things to come, or or we know of collections that are out there that we may. It's a bit morbid, I admit. Keep an eye on, um, things don't always tend to get donated during the Creator's lifetime, you know? So we gotta keep an eye on things, But, um, we don't have an ongoing repository sort of pro. No, we don't have that sort of that programme. I would say just it's not our mission. [00:52:00] And what is the mission? The mission? Well, it again to preserve, um, historical material. So what's being created today will be historical. Um, but it isn't necessarily yet, and I think also that We have many more mechanisms in place to to preserve media now. Now that it's all digital to begin with, you know if people think it's important, all you have to do is keep it on your hard drive in a studio somewhere, archive it off on a tape, and it's saved. It's not like [00:52:30] these old tapes that required oodles of space, and they were expensive and frequently got reused and wiped. It's simply a different environment production environment. Also, we have much more dispersed production now. There was a time when, uh, you know, one had to go to a studio or a station to make a recording because you had all this gigantic, expensive equipment. Now people can put together quite decent radio programmes in their dining rooms or a separate dining rooms across the country at the same time. So it's a it's a different [00:53:00] media landscape anyway. But I think, um, you know, Gerard can speak more to that. I'm not giving you any official. Paul always tells me this. Don't speak for the side. So I'm not. I'm trying. You should know that I really am not an official with the historical society. I'm a volunteer, so I can tell you what I know. But I'm not necessarily giving you gospel on policy.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089273
TITLE: Daniel Nicoletta
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VOICES: Daniel Nicoletta
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 2010s; Anita Bryant; Castro Camera; Castro District; Daniel Nicoletta; Framelines film festival; Harvey Milk; San Francisco; Scott Smith; United States of America; activism; archives; arts; coming out; crime; drag; education; film; gay; growing up; history; homophobia; human rights; legacy; media; movies; photo journalism; photography; politics; profile; scene; sexuality; social; visual arts
DATE: 19 June 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: San Francisco, San Francisco, United States of America
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Dan Nicoletta, and I'm, um, a photographer who has devoted his life to documentation of the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender journey primarily here in San Francisco. I'm now 58 I think, or 59. And, um, I was born on December 23rd, 1954 in New York City, New York. However, we moved to the place I grew up, which is [00:00:30] upstate New York. The city is called Utica New York, and that is where I lived most of my, uh, childhood years. Um, and I left there around age 17. 5 to study photography in college. Uh um, but primarily those 1st 17 years were spent in Utica, which is a big city, but it's fairly rural in atmosphere. [00:01:00] Why photography? Um, I mean, I was always a creative, uh, and I did start photography through the yearbook and, um, junior year of high school. Uh, although prior to that my life was full of Instamatic moments. My parents were snapshot enthusiasts, so it was very much an element of my upbringing. And and so in the yearbook project, photography [00:01:30] captured my imagination. However, before that, I was already doing super eight films, so I was really drawn to film making more than photography. But then through the yearbook, I started to to gain an appreciation for still photography as well. What is it about that visual medium? Um, I seem to have a natural, uh, gift with it, like portraiture and people. And, um, [00:02:00] we did this really cool yearbook, which was very poetic for a yearbook. I mean, it was really kind of a hip thing using rock music lyrics. And then, you know, I my candids are in there along with the sort of formal done by the yearbook guy. And so it was a cool thing in the sense that you sort of started to realise the creative potential of bookmaking. And I guess this is at a time when we're obviously talking film, not digital. So [00:02:30] the way that you photographed must have been quite different from nowadays. Yeah. No, I actually only converted to digital in 2008, so I'm a late bloomer in that respect. So back then, what were some of the considerations for your photography I I right away, which is still true today, I. I was drawn to the theatrical in life. Uh, the humorous. And, um, this [00:03:00] had something to do with the fact that the other, uh, artistic endeavours that were cultivated in my family and my household, uh, was theatre and show business because my mom was a dancer and she encouraged us kids to be in plays and put on plays. And so there was always a theatrical dimension to my upbringing. And, um, that was translated into my own craft in terms of how it was to express that I. I certainly [00:03:30] didn't want to be an actor even though I dabbled. Uh, but the photography felt right because you could sort of be with theatrical people and not have to go through the motions of memorising the script or all of that happy horse shit, you know? So what kind of photos were you shooting? Well, in in in high school? It was exclusively the yearbook because filmmaking was so dominant for me that I was actually shooting films. I. I won a Kodak Teenage Movie [00:04:00] award and, uh, after that, and it was a silly little piece of paper from Kodak and two free rolls of Super eight film. But boy, you couldn't stop me at that point and I was gonna have my sights set on Hollywood, and I was going to be a filmmaker of note. And, uh, so I made about a half a dozen Super Eights in, um, high school, and they were both, uh, live narrative with real people as actors and, uh, animation. I did some an animation [00:04:30] in high school as well. And, um, and so I I set my sales to Kansas City Art Institute for my first year of college. However, they wouldn't let you study film directly in the first year they had something called foundations, which is ultimately multidiscipline, uh, a a home base for, you know, launching whatever your area of specialty would then become in the sophomore year. And, uh, you know, But I still even [00:05:00] managed to parlay those assignments into film projects. So I think I created another three or four films in my year. At case Well, let's see KCAI. I probably did one or two films, and then my sophomore year, which was out here, I transferred to California College College of Arts in Oakland, and, um, I did film and video, and I did another three or four films there. And then I [00:05:30] moved to Castro Street serendipitously in August of 1974. And I continued to work on some films that I started in Oakland. And I cultivated a, um, sort of exalted epic biographical film, which, uh, um depicted my developing romance with San Francisco because it was, you know, when you first came here and you [00:06:00] were 20 years old and, you know, you're just like, this is where I'm gonna live the rest of my life. Uh, you know, you want to kind of express that creatively. So I I made this film and and the first week I moved to Castro Street. I stopped in the Castro camera, which was Harvey Milk's camera store, to see where I would be processing my Super Eight film. And, uh and, uh, the first day I walked in, both guys were there Harvey and Scott and they were super super friendly. And, um, [00:06:30] I thought, Oh, my God, this is definitely where I'm going to do business. You know, these guys are great, you know, and I just I walked out that day, and I was I couldn't quite put my finger on it. And I was like, Thank God, they're so super super friendly. Of course, I was being cruised by, Harvey and I had no idea. You know, that was the level of naivete I had at that point. However, I was I did move to Castro Street with a same sex romantic partner. So we we got an apartment with another roommate, just one [00:07:00] block up the street at Castro at 19. 6. 39 at Castro, I think was the address. So I was not quite out, and I wasn't completely clueless, but I still was that sort of forming identity where you're you wouldn't necessarily know the difference between being cruised and somebody who is super friendly, you know, like it. It was that kind of innocence, you know? So coming out as a gay man was was kind of [00:07:30] being gay, ever an issue for you? Or was it just something that it was natural and just kind of evolved? I wish. Unfortunately, I was sort of classic, self tortured, um, self hating, uh, trying to stop being homosexual. Um, and that had something to do with being raised Catholic, but more to do with, um just not really having any very much exposure. You know, II, I [00:08:00] met my first gay people in the years prior to moving to San Francisco, and fortunately, I met these folks because they were great. Um, but they were in the New York City area, and so that was the same time next year relationship with this constellation of of gay men that lived in a squad, actually in in Brooklyn. And, um, it was such a great, uh, stroke of luck for me to encounter these folks and, uh, became sort of boyfriends with [00:08:30] one of them. And, um, but I would go back to Utica on the train and just be completely mortified. You know that here I was living this double life, and, you know, maybe I'm not supposed to be this thing. Um and so I was pretty tortured, you know, And, uh And so by the time I moved to, uh, my first year of college, I was totally closeted. I think I had one sexual male to male sexual experience at the end of the [00:09:00] year, which was a positive experience, maybe two. Um, actually one. And then I re reunited with one of those guys later, um, that I met who was somewhat out. Uh, ironically, I hung out with all these people who were very Fay. But none of them were out. And they were all kind of like gay as gay could be. But they were not practising homosexuals. It was the weirdest thing. You know, it was like, uh, when we [00:09:30] had the wild table in the back of the cafeteria and, um, you know, and it's just I. I guess the best memory from that period of my life is we all went to a party in town, and, uh, and there was this really sort of lovely, you know, sharp looking woman. And and so I was sitting on her lap and dancing and just kind of like having a gay old time with her. And we got back to the dorm and my friends were busting at the the [00:10:00] They were like, Girl, you Well, they didn't say girl because they weren't out, But they were like, you were You were sitting on the lap of that tranny. You know, I'm like, what? Excuse me? I had no idea that it was not a real you know. Well, whatever. I don't even know if she was transsexual or transvestite at this point. Um, but I was that, you know, it was that kind of like innocent, you know? So, uh, and then two of those guys, many years later, [00:10:30] came out, you know? So that was kind of cool and very intuitive that we all found each other. You know, even though we couldn't allow ourselves to be gay. This is 1970 three through 74 and then I moved to San Francisco, and I meet my lover, uh, Esme at California College of Arts. And he very is very gentle with me, teaching me how to self respect and how to [00:11:00] not rush that process. But, you know, just like, you know, look around you. There's people who are co creating community here, and we understand, you know, your fragility, but it's sort of a useless model. You know what he was, You know, he was. And then, of course, I met Harvey and Scott, and they were similarly gentle with my tentativeness, but also were very much like, look around you, you know. And And that was what was happening. As you couldn't walk [00:11:30] down the street to go, like to to go buy a loaf of bread without Castro Street being this incredible array of, uh um, public display of affection And people were very, you know, sort of forthcoming that way. There was a it was a big kissing and hugging fest just to go buy a loaf of bread. Really? And, you know, and people are co creating community on a deeper level, like there's potlucks and there are theatre companies. And we started the first gay film festival. Then, [00:12:00] uh, I was also in a, uh, coffee clutch. That was all gay photographers. And I was in another group that was all gay videographers and, um, and theatre and I was I jumped right into two different theatre companies and basically worked with both of them for many, many years after that. So in the space of a couple of years, you've gone from a location where gay was on the scene and the other to [00:12:30] to being gay, kind of all encompassing. Yeah, yeah, no, it it really was a very instantaneous conversion, because I I think I moved to Castro Street in August of 74 and I'd say by later that year. Um, I'm I'm putting together this film that I talked about, which was this, uh, biographical, um, [00:13:00] Valentine's to my my developing romance with San Francisco. And there was a same sex kiss depiction in that. So I had already kind of dispensed with the insecurities and pretty much joined the the ambulance that was outside my front door, you know, and and and as well, my sexual rite of passage. I mean, we were cruising those bars and I was picking up lots of men. So I was getting to enjoy the fruits of the community on that level, too. And it was pretty exciting. [00:13:30] How does it work? If you've had that kind of self loathing for so many years to suddenly have that dramatic shift in terms of, you know, it's a completely different mindset, isn't it? You know it. It's so you know, of course, on the local level, uh, it's instantaneous, and it's completely transforming and and freeing. However, I took my time coming out to my parents, so I think they eventually came to visit me at the camera store [00:14:00] where I was a year later, hired as an employee. And even then I wasn't necessarily quick to point out to them that, um, I was working, I was gay and that I was working for these two gay people. But, I mean, you know, it would be readily apparent. And and then when I look back at the letters that I wrote back home during those first couple of years in the Bay Area, um, you can see me hinting like, Oh, Mom and Dad, there's this this great big party [00:14:30] every year called the Castro Street Fair and and, you know, like circumnavigating the nitty gritty. But so I wasn't classic in the sense that I wasn't one of those fired up. Come out, come out, come out. And, of course, the come out come out come out really hadn't happened yet because Anita Bryant hadn't happened yet. And you know, that's 77. That's like a year later, And she she forms the legislation in Florida, which would repeal, uh, [00:15:00] anti discrimination legislation protecting gays in employment. And that is sort of a It's a turning point in the US for sort of Abul party communities, whether it's the Castro or Fire island or wherever else, they're they're springing up, and there's very few at that point. But there is this idea of a gay ghetto occurring, and, um, and as soon as she wears her ugly head, [00:15:30] everybody's awakes. Awakes to what? This really what is really you know, the future here. So, you know, I, I think I'm a little more fired up at that point. Harvey certainly is. Um, and, uh, I you know, I think they were great in the sense that they never pushed people into coming out, even though there was a verbalization of the necessity for it. Uh, they, you know, right there within their [00:16:00] own sort of home framework. They were very gentle about that, and there was no requirement to come out. So that's an interesting detail in the sense that I think it is a personal decision. And they, uh, they respected that even though there was a call to action, there was a respect for personal decision making on that in those first couple of years being in the Castro, how did that change or affect your creative output? Um, it was it was, [00:16:30] um, exploding, you know, there there was, uh, such a synergy. Uh, the the Castro I, in a sense, is the geographical centre of San Francisco. And it really was this epicentre of creativity political, uh, activism. That was my initiation into electoral politics. Um, it was my initiation into, uh, freelance photography. So still photography, [00:17:00] Um, so my initiation into business conducting business. Um And, uh, So there was this economic component that was, you know, part of my identity that was forming there was a sexual component. So it really was like a candy store. In a way, you know, it was like everything that a creative individual in their early twenties would want. It was available to me and, uh and you know, I. I already had a kind [00:17:30] of Taipei wiring where I really was so hungry for to become a successful film director that I just went for it with gusto. I was like I said, I was involved in, you know, five different sort of, uh, and working a full time job at the camera store, which in and of itself was this creative entity, you know, because the campaigns that were being fostered there were very done very creatively. So how did that joke come about [00:18:00] They You know, they took a shining to me. I was a customer, and I and like many customers, um, we hung out, you know, we would drop off our film, but then we'd sit on the the big armchair and and shoot the shit for as long as we could get away with, uh, and, um and then a year later, they they signalled me in and and Harvey had this really serious tone in his voice and he said, We need to talk to you. And I was like, Oh, my God, what's up? And and so he sat me down and he said, We, [00:18:30] Scott, and I want you to come work for us. We would like you to work in the the camera store. I'm entering my second supervisorial campaign, and we want you to be the extra pair of hands around the store. So I left that day like, 10 ft off the ground, you know, and I already loved that place, and I was already, you know, a hanger out or and, um uh, and I had been working really shitty jobs. Not that you cared back then because you're just so happy to be in San Francisco, but to to to [00:19:00] land employment in Castro camera was such a a godsend because it was better money. I was right where I wanted to be, you know? Then I was right in the heart of where I wanted to be. Anyway, I was meeting all these freelance photographers and filmmakers. Um, we started the film the Gay film Festival, out of that store, which is the one that's now this is Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's dated from our festival, basically, which was a super age showcase. But they they have [00:19:30] created the lineage from that point forward. So which is now coincidentally, I believe it's the biggest per capita film festival in California. Um, people take their vacations to come here. Uh, we show films from 30 different countries every year for 11 days. And, um, that started out of that coffee clutch. And, um, it's a beautiful thing because we really didn't. We [00:20:00] didn't think that far down we we we understood that what was happening synergistically, especially when there was conflict. Uh, in anti gay legislation, we understood that what was happening was history making, But we would have never dreamed that it would be. One of the successes would be this incredible film festival, which now is an amazing tool for, you know, changing hearts and minds on the LGBT paradigm [00:20:30] in your creative output. At that time, did you ever feel constrained by, um, feelings of censorship? Or I can't show that or I can't portray this. You know, we had a couple, um, sort of volatile films in the early festivals, and I think I was because I was a sort of a cockeyed optimist, and [00:21:00] I and I still am, but I was very I mean, if if you look at my films, they're hardly avant garde, they're actually wanna be Hollywood films. They're very exalted and, you know, they're kind of goofy in that respect. But, you know, I was definitely pursuing this narrative track, and there were people that were doing experimental things which were, you know, poking fun at Anita Bryant and were more in the spirit of Andy Warhol. Um, but I I didn't [00:21:30] feel that inclined to do sort of inflammatory work, inflammatory work. But people were and we did show it. But we didn't shirk from that, and then the theatre I was doing was much more edgy. And, um, so it wasn't that it was lost on me, but there are in the theatre context I wasn't writing. I was just documenting. So it's a sense my own voice is much more moderate. And, um, [00:22:00] I I didn't really feel compelled to censor myself to my knowledge. Um, yeah, I, I think in a sense, I was searching. I was searching and was pretty much waiting for what that that message might be. Um, I don't recall. I mean that the, you know everywhere, you know, not unlike the the public display of affection everywhere [00:22:30] around you are the message is exhibitionism and self gratification and self exploration. And, um, there's there's actually no recoiling at this point for those first few years. It's pretty much on fire, you know, even though I'm a moderate and innately you know. And Harvey was taking photographs as well. Wasn't he at this point? What was he photographing? He was photographing [00:23:00] less and less. In a sense, his the richness of his body of work predates the camera store because they they had a couple of road trips. You know, they moved to California. They had a couple of road trips. Um, he's a free agent at that point. He's not working for Wall Street. They're kind of doing the the, um what do you call it? Uh, uh, unemployment insurance thing where they're getting unemployment checks, and they're just travelling and [00:23:30] playing. And so you see a lot of beach shots of his boyfriends. You see, um, shots of his dog. You do see an attempt at creativity. Um, and, uh, he is, he's he's, um he's avid. I mean, there's a lot of material. There's trays and trays of slides from those years. But then, as soon as he opens the store, that takes a back seat to this political ideation that's starting to to show [00:24:00] up, Um, he did still shoot like, there's this one of me that I just adore. And it's so great because he only shot me those those two frames. For some reason, those are the only two shots that Harvey took of me. But they're incredible. They're him experimenting with the role of infrared film. So they're just these amazing pictures of me and, um And then Scott was also, uh, a very avid photo enthusiast so they would do things like they would shoot the street fairs. [00:24:30] Although they couldn't shoot the second annual Street Fair because it was organised out of the store and that was a full plate for them. Uh, in fact, that was my first freelance gig gig, because they that was my first day of work at the store. But because I didn't know film prices, they said, OK, here's three Roses slide film go out and document the fair. So in in principle, that was my first freelance gig, and that was pretty exciting because, you know, I got [00:25:00] to photograph theatre people and drag queens and all the things that I liked anyway, So to be able to get paid for that was kind of cool. What a fantastic first. Yeah. Yeah. So, um yeah, I mean, they they continued to photograph all throughout those years of the campaigns, but it became less and less possible. The perfect example of that, um, attachment to creative [00:25:30] art making by both of them is in my mind's eye. Well, two things one is that Harvey, like many of us, one of the ways that, um, are homosexual ideation is is presence in the the The real world is through portraits of our loved ones, male to male, you know, sort of appreciation of male beauty [00:26:00] and and bonding. And if you look at Harvey's body of work, you see that all throughout right up through Jack Lea. There's this beautiful series that he shot of Jack at the Ocean, which I printed for him, and, um and so you. He fortunately would take a break enough to return to that the occasional day trip to the beach with the the latest boyfriend and a photographic essay on him. And that's a That's a real key place [00:26:30] to land for me because it shows me two things that he had the wisdom to create, um, recreational time for himself. And even though the the the campaigns were incredibly overwhelming and probably somewhat oppressive, um, and then I think when you look at all those pictures throughout, one of the things that you can distil is that the the really what might even be [00:27:00] the fundamental reason for Harvey's politicisation, which is a very profound sense of indignation, that I cannot safely and serenely have this enjoyment in life without culture bearing down on me, telling me that it's wrong. So what you see is this real sort of specialised, sacred, um, compartmentalization of male to male bonding, [00:27:30] and and to me, that's like very much at the core of why he decides to do something about the inability to do that. And so I think I've always Whenever I do my presentations, I always present that as my thesis, that male male to male bonding is the first order of business with Harvey. He is has this profound sense of indignation that he cannot do it in culture. And he is gonna commit him his life to transforming that and and does. And, um [00:28:00] and then he right before he was killed, he he had ingratiated this very previously very homophobic, uh, businessman down the block. The guy that ran the, um, mechanic shop a couple doors down. And that guy, when when they first came to the neighbourhood, was a homophobe. But of course, unsuspecting gays didn't really know that. So he he they would go there [00:28:30] and have their cars fixed. And this guy started making serious bank and he got he got religion because he realised the economic cloud of the gay community, and Harvey knew something about this guy's availability on that level and little by little, started to break down his homophobia. And he did it through joke telling. And so before long this guy was coming over to the store with the latest jokes, and Harvey would stop in over at the [00:29:00] the Mechanic shop with the latest jokes, and they became good friends. And that guy, towards the end of Harvey's life, had the opportunity to go up in an aeroplane when Cristo did his running fence in Marin County, which is this epic art installation and and those kind of things movies and sort of cultural trends that were really sort of cool had high coolness factor. Those were very much a another thing that Harvey and Scott utilised [00:29:30] to sort of anchor themselves, and it's all worth it. You know, he got to go up in that plane and photograph Crystal's fence from the air and came back with, you know, several rolls of slides and was just like, so excited about that work. And, um, it was one of the last times that he got to have that sort of creative respite. So he had it. He had he considered himself an artist, to be sure. And, of course, they had a rich theatre in, uh, off Broadway [00:30:00] history so that that was already solid there for them. So when you started at the camera shop, what was Harvey's status in the the Castro community? Can you recall how other people thought of him? Um, you know, I came after the first campaign. I wasn't here or involved in the first campaign. Um, and he already had, uh, a regular column in the BAR, which was the gay rag. It was a little sort of [00:30:30] street corner. Um, paper. Not with the significance that it has today. Um, but he utilised that as a a sort of pulpit and I. I was marginally aware of him having recognition of visibility. Uh, through that I was marginally aware that he was disliked. Um, but, you know, I think synergistically [00:31:00] because he kept on being engaged, particularly in that neighbourhood and the neighbourhood politics. Um, he he won people over, and the best example of that is there was a There was a one. Well, there was one last hurrah for police harassment. And it was a Memorial Day weekend, probably circa 1974. And and, you know, [00:31:30] maybe seven or eight dozen guys would line up on Castro Street at bar closing or even on a sunny Saturday afternoon to Cruise. And the cops came in and systematically arrested either 11 or 14 of them. And so they became known as the Castro 14. And and then there was so much organising in the neighbourhood at the time that a community meeting was called with a police liaison to basically complain about [00:32:00] this behaviour on the part of the San Francisco Police. And, um and they filled, uh, a basketball auditorium and a school on. And that was the thing I did. The revisionist. I got the building wrong. Um, anyway, so I go, you know, and young Danny goes into this room to check this situation out, and it's packed to the rafters with angry, angry citizens, and the most vocal is Harvey and Scott, and they're like, you know, their veins [00:32:30] are popping out of their neck and they're yelling at the top of their lungs, And, uh so, you know, it's just like what was the original thread on that. What was the question? How is Harvey seen by? By Yeah, Yeah, so So there you see a small victory. You know, like somehow he emerges as a champion because he's out there and, you know, those kinds of things start to turn heads and people are like, Oh, maybe he isn't so crazy, you [00:33:00] know, because originally the sort of status quo, gays really didn't like him and that can that continued to be an issue all throughout. Um, but, uh, little ladies loved him, you know, because he stopped and he talked to them, you know, And And there was always somebody coming in with some kind of drama, like, you know, he was very happy to. He was a big codependent. He was very happy to sit down, [00:33:30] sit you down If you just broke up with your boyfriend and and that scene in milk where he does that with Cleve Jones is at the very least, metaphorically true. I don't know if Cleave actually had a breakup in that moment, but there were many, many guys that were kind of Harvey's favourites that he was happy to sort of sit down and find out what was up for them, whether it was drug addiction or whatever, you know, So I I didn't really have. I mean, I don't I mean, we [00:34:00] had several hours in the the the late afternoon where we used to chat a lot, but I don't I didn't necessarily see him in that role with me. It seemed like I was managing fines, so there wasn't this big need to sort of utilise him in that fashion, you know? Can you describe his voice? Well, it it it, um, Stuart Milk, Harvey's openly gay nephew, had one really solid [00:34:30] exchange with his his uncle before his uncle passed away and before he had his own um, coming out, which was many years later. But they Harvey was there to bury his father, I think. And he met with his brother's family. And there was the way it was described by both Stewart and Harvey. Was there was this one late night where they sat around the kitchen table, and and they it was somewhat [00:35:00] aggravated around the gay issue. Or, you know, the the sort of, um, notion of, um uh, not that Stewart was even thinking that he might be gay at that point. But there was some conservative on on his part around, you know, Why do you have to be so vocal and Harvey in the way he described it, which is once, Once Stewart said it, I was like, Yeah, that's right. I remember that and he would do this thing where he would [00:35:30] let you have your opinion and he would hear you out good and clear. And then he would loop it back out around to his and and And have you convinced that his world view was what was was more correct? Correct? Right? So I, I think, especially if you were a youngster or somebody who I thought was cute, he was certainly gonna be, like, very accommodating on that sort of metaphysical level of Well, let's let's have a [00:36:00] conversation here. But always very sort of like the last word and and, you know, there were the flip side of that same coin is if you were super familiar, like Scott, he could really hammer you, like on the needing to be right thing. He was terribly cruel to Scott sometimes, and Scott probably survived and lasted because He was just as bullheaded. You know, he would let Harvey have [00:36:30] it. No holds bar, you know, just Yeah. Yeah, I. I had some kind of autonomy. Like I That really wasn't. I think we got in one big argument with another guy from the community, and I saw them kind of go at it with the the veins popping out. And I was just like, Oh, you can't win with Harvey. So does that explain? Does that answer your question? I'm just wondering, in terms of, like, tone of voice, [00:37:00] Was he kind of Was it a soft tone of harsh tone? Both both like, it could be it could be both. And then, you know, I mean, it was never harsh with me. Um uh, and you could see him drop down an octave, and it would be like, Ok, now, what I'm gonna say is serious. So let's Let's have you listen here. Um, but yeah, he he definitely was gifted in terms of communication and, you know, was really sort of fond of talking. [00:37:30] So there was lots of inflexion and lots of, um, engagement, you know, really sort of lived through the engagement. Did he change his language? Depending on who he was talking to, I'd say he probably did. Yeah. I mean, he could You know, Harvey is such a ball breaker. Um, he would insert vulgarity just to get people's goat, you know, because he'd be in heavy hitter situations and you'd see him, like, insert insert vulgarity just because he knew [00:38:00] the people would get their panties in a bunch, you know? And it was So he, uh he always had a sort of street aspect to him, which is I admired, you know, because I certainly always had that. And, um um, he I doubt if he ever was restrained for the sake of expediency, like he pretty much was himself and felt that that was sort of the the first, the first rule, [00:38:30] you know? So, yeah, what were your duties in the camera shop? Well, I was mostly customer service, so I was writing up people's orders, and, um and then I would stock the shelves because we didn't have this. We carried darkroom, uh, supplies. We did not sell cameras. Um, I answered the phones, so that was a daytime manifestation of the political campaigns. And then sometimes I would stay late [00:39:00] after I punched out and, um, work on the campaigns. I, I leaflet the, um, bingo games with him in the mission. Um, I registered voters. I walked precincts very little walking at precincts, but because I, I mean, I worked for the store 40 hours a week, So there was really not that much energy for politics outside of the store, Especially since I was super super involved [00:39:30] in all these art endeavours which they wholeheartedly supported. They came to that film festival that I described, uh, to support me. They came to some shows that I did. They were very much on that page of mentorship where you show up for the the good stuff like that, the presentational stuff. And that was cool, you know? Can you describe for me what the shop look like inside? [00:40:00] Well, it was some rec. Um, you know, they didn't have a lot of money. Uh, and, um, the it was a big open space, and they built it out with false walls that were were created by our friend to Tom Randall, who, uh, lived with them upstairs for a minute. And, um, he he's still a good friend of mine, and he took, like, cardboard [00:40:30] tubing. You know, like, say, the the tubing that up a roll of photographic seamless comes on. He took things like that, and he made furniture out of it. And, uh, they had a big, fluffy old couch for people to sit on and look at their slides. Like you. There was a long slide table. You could look at your slides and then, um and then there was, uh, a big conference room in the back, which is where some of the campaign stuff was happening. And, um and then Harvey had a very tiny office. And then there [00:41:00] was another room adjacent to that which had been various things, mostly storage. But at one point, it was a printing press, and, um, and that conference room was interesting because it had gone through several, um, mutations. Like before I worked there. There was a photographer that actually ran a studio out of it. Uh, Rick and he, um And then there was some licencing issue around the fact that they couldn't have [00:41:30] that in the store while they did something else. I don't know if it was the politics or what? But he had to. It had to stop being a studio. And then and then it, uh And then we actually held a little film festival. Uh, videos, not films there. And that actually predated, um, the frame line Super aid festival that I talked about, uh, and it was a one off. It was three days of videos, [00:42:00] but it was it never happened again. But there was some sort of targeting of Oh, maybe this could be, uh, a a film showcase place. And then I think AAA political campaign came up and that bumped all of the possible morphing in that space into exactly that, uh, campaign headquarters. And there it stayed in perpetuity till it closed. And so how many people could you fit in that space? [00:42:30] A couple 100 like that. That scene from milk, which is the Victory party, is sort of authentically based, I think, because it's the same physical space, and that's exactly how it was. You can see it in my photos. How many people sort of spilled out into the street. Right? So a couple 100 you mentioned a bit earlier about, um, printing and developing um, Harvey's photos, and I'm I'm guessing that things like, um, going [00:43:00] through a dark room process. I mean, that nowadays with digital is is kind of historic. So can you explain the I mean, it must be quite a joy to actually see something coming up from from a blank piece of paper. Can you explain? Well, um, we never did do processing on the premise there. Um, that that's actually a myth. That's part of the film. That's that's sort of a hybridization of of fact, [00:43:30] uh, we had a sister store in the hate called I food and that was independently owned and independently run. Um, but they did all the black and white processing for Castro camera, so there would be a delivery there in the morning. Uh, people would drop off their films, and then we shoot it over there by car, and and then there would be a pick up in the late afternoon and not necessarily of the stuff that was dropped off that day. This the [00:44:00] cyclical nature was about a three day turnaround. So this guy, Rick Nichols, who is still very much family he would process he would real process your black and whites and bang out a proof sheet for you in, like, 2 to 2. 5 to 3 day service time. And so then Scott would go over there and pick up the that days, and you would come in at 5 p. m. to pick up your proof sheets or the next day. And, um, and I didn't [00:44:30] use his dark room. But that was that same era where we were all doing that. We were working with processing our own negatives and printing. I was actually working for the Advocate photographer Crawford Barton, uh, a free apprenticeship and, um, using his dark room. And then and then there was other people that kind of chipped in, You know that they use their dark room type thing, So it was cool. It was a good, good, um, supportive [00:45:00] environment in that respect, like people definitely were into sharing resources as part of the vision of co creating community like there was this generosity that was sort of a carryover from the hippie era. And so when you are developing something, is it like when you've shot something on film? Do you realise once you've taken the photo. Ah, that's the photo. Or is it actually only in development that you find this is the the the image [00:45:30] that I want. Ok, Uh, well, I wasn't really. I was kind of technically naive back then and and, of course, I was excited by photography on that sort of visceral level. But I don't think I really knew what a good image looked like back then. You know, it's like I wish I was a better photographer because there a lot of those pictures are so historically, um, potent now [00:46:00] and not a lot of them stood the test of time because I was really sort of sloppy with my technique. But I guess, you know, I guess I was like any other. I you know, I you'd see it come up in the tray and you'd be super psyched, you know, I don't know. I think I probably had less and less time for printing. As things goes, goes on. And in a sense, that did end up being the, um the gravity [00:46:30] of my own career has not been as a printer. It's been as a a shooter. So its sense, in a sense, it it got to be a secondary involvement. I think you know, for me, I'm I'm a people person, and I'm a a social engagement person. And so the solitary pursuit of the dark room was I always felt was subordinate in the sense that, yes, this is very meditative, and this is very artistic, but [00:47:00] no, it's not me. So I think a lot of a lot of that material I shot really hasn't seen the light of day simply because I was out there shooting new material. And that's kind of that imbalance still exists in my body of work. So someday there'll be, you know, some foraging going on. So So can you talk to me about photographing some of the some of the campaign photographs? And, um, had you done that kind of work before? [00:47:30] Had you been in those fast changing environments? Photographing, Documenting? Yeah. Um, well, you know, BAR Bay area reporter where Harvey had his column, uh, was a really rinky dink little gay rag at the time. And, um uh, and covering the whole, uh, old school drag ball scene. Basically, it it That whole culture, even known now in in retrospective, is profoundly [00:48:00] significant in terms of what it transformed. But at the time, it was actually sort of looked down upon in a way, although he he certainly had the wisdom to utilise it as a springboard for community discourse. And then he also recognised correctly that that the drag ball community was a huge voting demographic and they did help elect Harvey. And they were, uh, at the forefront of fundraising. They were [00:48:30] sort of the early prototype of what we see now in the nonprofit sector of, you know, really sort of shrewd fundraising and just a very sort of compassionate, uh, or a very passionate investment in terms of shaking down the philanthropic dollar. Um, and the drag community was always that, if not anything else, but they were. They were also like this amazing thing, so they would send me out. And so those were my first sort of editorial assignments, and [00:49:00] it was great because, you know, here again I was like being paid to photograph drag queens and theatre people, which I loved, you know. But I think it was short lived, I think I. I mean, they were paying me something like $15 a photo, And I think I went to blows with the editor who was kind of this really intense guy, Uh, on the the rate and and or repetitive, uh, utilisation issues. And, um [00:49:30] And then I stopped working for them, and I think I I had always imagined that I would increase my, um, connection to editorial. Uh, you know, income, but it it sort of didn't happen. I mean, I was really kind of, uh, in the avant garde scene more than I was in the sort of commercial scene commercial [00:50:00] editorial scene. And, um, yeah, uh, what was your question again? I was just wondering if you could take me through some of the, um, political campaign images. Um, and whether you had shot that kind of material before, um, how you shot it and and and why you shot it. I think there was a lot of cluelessness involved there because, in a sense, my focus was my friends, Like, I was photographing [00:50:30] my friends because that's what they were doing. And, um, you don't really see an eye for editorial historical acumen in my work till maybe the early eighties and and I can even tell you where I sort of had the light bulb go off over my head because, you know, I mean, in a sense, that community was so insular that I was allowed the eccentricity of only [00:51:00] photographing my friends. My friends just happened to be doing these very amazing things. But, um, that being the the Castro community, the theatre stuff, I was doing the drag stuff. All that was very sort of ethnocentric. Um And so in in the early eighties, I got the commission to do the Castro Street Fair poster because Scott became a sort of significant player on that scene on the [00:51:30] the repetition of the street fair year in and year out. And, uh, and I wanted to do this grid treatment where it was like 20 small square photographs that showed all the different aspects of the fair and I I set forth to edit that out of my body of work. And then I realised I realised that I was very sparse on a certain certain key, um, content, for example, male to male affection shots. I didn't have it or I had very little of it, And, [00:52:00] um and there was an awful lot of theatre people and drag queens. And so that was a bit of a wake up call. It was like, Wow, you really are eccentric here. And, um and that's been fun. But you really got to pay attention and start documenting your community a little more mindfully. Uh, so that Caster Street Fair poster was a critical learning curve for me, And, uh And so then I started shooting that way, Like shooting editorial, like, what is what is gonna tell the story in a better way [00:52:30] years from now? So are you saying that the images prior to that so the political campaign images were very much like taking photographs of friends rather than trying to document a situation or a little bit like somewhat incestuous, but also, I mean, you know, I my colleagues are definitely reflecting back in a very sort of, um, solid editorial way, you know, and and they're doing it kind of with political mindfulness, and and I'm [00:53:00] paying attention to that. But I'm sort of being I'm sort of being, um and petulant with my own particular kinks, which is theatre and theatre people. And and, you know, I think Harvey and Scott used to kid me about that. They'd be like, Oh, you know, Rink and, uh, Crawford go to this Castro Street fair and they come back with all these pictures of hot guys and all. Danny ever comes back with his pictures of drag queens and theatre people, you know, and they'd always bust my chops about that. But it was true. [00:53:30] You know, I wasn't really that the the erotic dimension of my work had not it, and it had not emerged yet. So, um, I was fairly I was afforded the luxury of being somewhat incestuous in that respect. You know, II. I did appreciate it in others work such as Crawford Barton, who was a teacher in a way. But I didn't feel compelled to emulate it [00:54:00] at all. On the contrary, I was doing my own thing, you know? So I'm wondering, how do you get people relaxed in front of the camera like I'm thinking of? So So when you're shooting your friends, how do you make it so that they are maybe unaware of you relaxed and and also finding the right moment to click that shutter knowing that you've only got however many frames in a role of film. Well, even as poor as I was, I always thought [00:54:30] film and I shot film. I actually shot a lot of film, and I and so one of the strategies was to just shoot enough that one of those was gonna sort of be the in between moment that we all crave, you know? And, um and I think it succeeded as a strategy. I think it was, uh, a liability on other respects in terms of, uh, a more practical, zen way of looking before you take the photograph. That didn't come to me till much later on through, [00:55:00] um, reentering college in the eighties. Uh, I had one teacher challenge me on that issue, you know, just like maybe you should just not take it and think about it before you. You know? Actually, take it and see what happens in that that dead time before you actually take the picture. So that was good. It didn't fit. It didn't fit me very well, I think. II. I entertained it for a minute and and then defaulted back to that sort of. I probably saw an [00:55:30] excerpt from a blow up of the movie of the fashion photographer going click, click, click, click and then decided That's what I want to be when I grow up, you know? So how many roles were you would you be taking? Um, well, back then, I you know, I would make a couple roles. The triax last a couple of weeks, but, you know, certainly by the time I have a studio in the nineties, I'm shooting 10 rolls of film per session. Um, the gay day stuff accelerates like by [00:56:00] the time I'm a mature photographer covering San Francisco Pride Parade, I'm shooting 14, 15 roles. Easy. So I never let go of the the, uh, idea of using still photography to make a sort of sequential deconstruction of what I'm photographing and that's stuck. It's kind of I'm stuck with it now. I can I can't slow down to save my life. Even when I played [00:56:30] with hus blood, you know, which was somewhat slowing. But I, I still sort of shot a lot of film. I set the camera on a tripod, of course, which did help slow me down and formalise me a little bit. So all that studio work, which is a 10 year period. There's some really beautiful, very, very formal, Aon esque kind of portraiture. So would you see your say, your parade or your fear or the political campaign photographs as [00:57:00] photojournalism? Or they're more personal than that? I would never classify that stuff as photojournalistic, partly because it never did get published. Um, partly because of many of the things we talked about already, which was I was too busy moving on to the next thing, uh, to really sort of cultivate the, um, post production aspect or the exploration of publishing as an income producer. Uh, and of course, now that is happening [00:57:30] because there's demand for that material. So that's nice because, you know, it forces me to go in and make determinations of what's editorially strong and how it could be licenced and marketed. Um, and I think there was a little part of me that predicted that, you know, that was like, I'll deal with that later. You know, so and it and it and it's shown up. So that's cool. Um, I have always been an artist. [00:58:00] I've always been an art fag. You know, I kind of love in milk that I'm I'm sort of depicted as this quirky little art because basically that type in the world is legion now. I mean, they they grew, they we grew them on trees. And now they're everywhere. Everybody's a photographer, you know? Everybody has tumbler. And it was an idea whose time has come. But really, in a sense, I was part of a, uh, revolution [00:58:30] in terms of what art schools were producing and how they how photography would become such an essential tool. What kind of camera were you using? My first was a pent. I bought a used Tex, and that was about 100 $69 for a 50 lens 50 millimetre lens. And that lasted a long time. That last me quite far into the eighties. It had been to the hospital a few times. I think I even got a second body at one point [00:59:00] and was even shooting with two bodies. And, um And then after I met Mike, I grew up and I got a contact, so I had a really beautiful I still have. It's sort of tragic that poor contact sits there just completely being ignored. And, um But you know what happened with, uh, Digital is I actually was being cultivated to shoot stills on milk, not as the primary, uh, still man, but as the sort of little [00:59:30] site editorial project. But they said you have to shoot digital. So I taught myself digital, and, um And then once I realised how great digital was for mixed lighting and stuff, I just never looked back like that context got put in a closet, and there it stayed, you know? So, um, it's frustrating because it's a beautiful camera, But I'm not willing to go through the extra effort that it takes to have film soup and go the Luddite path, because [01:00:00] digital is just so And really, since milk came out, my life has been super brisk, so there really isn't much opportunity to dick around anymore. And speaking of lighting, um, what are your thoughts on lighting? What do you use or or natural light or flash? Or I'll use fill and flash. You know, if if it's a bright day, I'll use film and flash. I mean, one of the disadvantages of being technically naive. Uh, all those early years and now [01:00:30] it comes back to bite me on the ass because the demand is for that material. Not for the stuff I shot in the the nineties or, you know, the turn of the century. And and, um, it time and time again, the material does not stand the test of time, either because I did use fell and flash or I was technically naive then negatives. Now, any number of problems out of focus images that in my imagination were possibly probably in focus. And then, of course, [01:01:00] when it comes time to scan them, it's like, Oh, fuck, you know? And it's the wrong kind of out of focus. It's not the ephemeral kind of out of focus. It's the kind that shouldn't shouldn't be utilised. So I think it it was really great for me to sort of finally just say, uh, you gotta you gotta at least carve out enough time to get your ducks in a row on the technical stuff so that the stuff will you'll have something to show for. And so I did do that, [01:01:30] and, um and I like, I like that part of it more. I mean, you can't have it both ways. I think if I had sort of sort of chain myself to my desk in the seventies, instead of seeking out the theatre world and the the Harvey milks of the world, I wouldn't have been in the right place at the right time. So I have to sort of accept the fact that I I didn't have proper balance then, you know, But, um, [01:02:00] given the choice again, I think I would quiet myself down a little better and and brush up, you know, had some painful, painful mistakes back then. So looking through some of your just amazing images, especially of things like, um, the victory celebration at at Castro camera and I'm wondering when you're photographing something like that, do you feel part of the event or are you kind of removing yourself from that? Especially when it's your friends? [01:02:30] Yeah. Yeah. No, I never was very good at, um, putting the camera down. And, um uh, having balance in terms of my, um uh, integration with the event, Uh, I do very much go to, uh, an isolated vantage point, and I I'm actually playing with that particular phenomenon a little bit more now. Uh, trying [01:03:00] to break that down a little bit, Um, within reason, because I really still feel that in the service of the social sector, people shouldn't be talking to the photographer. You know, it's like, don't talk to me. I'm working, you know, don't I mean, chat me up, but don't expect me to have a deep conversation. Now, if you got my phone number, fucking call me up, you know? And it's like so you know, most of my friends, they on [01:03:30] a molecular level, they're, like, get away from her. But, um, I think, you know, it's It's also part of the creation of the work to engage, uh, so but that I guess, in a sense, it's I prefer to dominate because, you know, I that I'm choosing to engage, and I'm choosing to coach or whatever. Um, [01:04:00] I don't know. You know, back then I was I was just as sort of, uh, remote. I would say and and really invested in the photographic process, to the degree that I was probably not that user friendly. I don't know. I mean, I see I see worst versions of it out there where people are just really sort of crude and rude. I'm not that. But on the other hand, I, I know how to negotiate [01:04:30] shared space to the degree that I can get what I want and enrol you in that process, you know? And, um, I seem to have a really good gift for that. Like, people really enjoy working with me and really enjoy that process. But I am a bit of a tyrant on a certain level, you know, in Inter internally, privately, like I. I will kind of send somebody a [01:05:00] smoke signal. Like that conversation is actually not gonna happen right now. And I'm gonna go and do What I've been doing is just covering this event. So you got y'all can enjoy these pictures later on because I post everything and people do get involved on a sort of communal level that way. And, uh, you know, I think in a, uh in a sense, the gesture is that it's like, well, you know, you can't have it both ways here, you know, And I'm out there enough [01:05:30] without my camera that you can chat me up later on. That would be the sort of subtext of not now for that? I don't know. I've never talked to anybody about that. So that was an interesting question for me, because yeah, and that could could work to your disadvantage. I mean, certainly like certain weddings. You have to go that little extra mile because they don't know you from Adam. They're not impressed. You're just this [01:06:00] dude, right? It's been, uh, since the fame came. I mean, not that I hadn't had modicum of visibility as an artist through the years, but it was definitely, never, uh, anchored to the success of being depicted in a feature film or the success of a such a profoundly, uh, far reaching film. Uh, it's changed the internal dynamics of [01:06:30] people sitting for you and people partaking in that process. You know, it it really, uh, the anonymity went right out the window, So I have to be OK with that part. That sort of invisibility that I used to have is never gonna come back. So it's very much phrased by the success of the movie Milk and and that's OK, because everybody's very eager to participate now, which is, you know, never been [01:07:00] a struggle before, But it was a challenge before. So now it's this whole different thing of everybody wants to play, but they, you know, it's the neutrality is is no longer there. Mhm doesn't seem to hold anybody back, though, you know, or myself. And I don't think it really impacts the the content negatively. [01:07:30] Ultimately, you know, don't I don't know. I don't know that yet. It'd be interesting to take a look at the work in a few years and see after post pre milk and after milk. How that changed. You know, one of the other interesting things I find, particularly in things like Harvey's walk to City Hall for his inauguration. Um, you're actually there before they come down the street. So actually kind of, um, being there prior [01:08:00] to an event taking place. So actually, having a kind of 1/6 sense to say something's going to happen, I need to be at that point. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I you know, God, there were so many events where I botched it, though. I. I think I was just lucky in that particular moment, you know, to be, But I mean, really even back as far as the seventies. I think in a sense those of us that were photographers in [01:08:30] the LGBT communities. We always were like, um, salmon swim, swimming upstream where we, you know, like the parade is the perfect example. So you're you've got credentials, you're in the parade and it's it's moving forward and you're covering it. But then you've you've fallen back because you were focused on a particular entity or contingent or something. And then, you know, something else comes along and you have to follow [01:09:00] it back upstream and do your little deal and then fall back. And so I mean, when I when I used to photograph in the parade itself, I always felt like a salmon at the end of the day, swimming upstream, you know, it's just like, Wow, and that was hard work. You know, I would always be completely depleted afterwards, and I would have shot in 14, you know, or 15 really brilliant roles of film. But I'd be like, What? You know. So now I'm more into [01:09:30] the people setting up and the kind of portraiture I'm like, really, you know, more focused on the who's who of things and who's important in our community and who's here this year that should be documented, that kind of stuff, you know? And then I have my I still have my little like quirks, you know, like, I'll go to Fairy Freedom Village and I'll just hang out there for a couple hours with my friends. And you do see, uh, late in life. You see a trend towards not engaging [01:10:00] strangers anymore. Like I really can't do it anymore. Like I used to. I It's just the due diligence is, and the extra work in terms of enrolling somebody. It just doesn't work for me now. And I have so many amazing friends, uh, and and the creative people that are in the San Francisco community, it's It's like an endless supply of the most beautiful, most talented, most sort of exhibitionistic people. So I feel like [01:10:30] if my friends want to sort of be the first conversation there, then why engage strangers? You know, unless somebody is sort of iconic in terms of what they're depicting, You know, I will shoot this sort of shot that tells a story about the visitors to San Francisco or whatever, but I I'm really sort of, uh, ethnocentric stilt to a fault, you know? Hm. I think I spent, [01:11:00] you know, four hours in in Ferry Village last year because they gave me, like, the big fancy schmancy credentials. And, um, it just felt comfortable to be there with my my friends and not, uh, backstage backstage, for example, backstage at Gay Day is no fun anymore. It's this really sort of higher, higher. I have all access pass, but, um, it's this very hierarchical [01:11:30] thing with a certain amount of police presence, you know, because some of those people are pop stars and and I'm just like, No, I can't I'm not interested, you know? And I love the people that produce the parade. They're they're my dear, dear friends and I. I totally took my head off to them for doing all that, But for my content, that's that's no longer do you think in engaging with strangers? Um, [01:12:00] is it you kind of not wanting to go there or do you think actually, generally as a as a population, especially like in the Castro, have people kind of shut down a bit more? So it's It's not about engagement with strangers, but it's basically working with who you know, Um, well, I've aged. So of course there's this there is this newer, um, variable to contend with, which is, you know, I'm no longer this young hot thing. So I have to, [01:12:30] you know, I don't really want to engage strangers from the youth demographic because there's a sort of age dimension to it that really is just of no use to me, because I'm I have the most impressive people in the world want, you know, lining up to sit for me. So I'm not gonna go through that process of struggling to enrol a looker. If there's, I have to navigate that that age of stuff, Um, I do like heavily tattooed people. So that's quite often where I'll make an exception. [01:13:00] It's like somebody will be so absolutely stunning that I will, um, I'll, I'll go out of my comfort zone on that, Um And then when I had the studio, I actually had a sort of reverse psychology where I was sort of fed up with the enchantment that existed within the queer community with me, because having a studio was really great because people were in, you know, appropriately impressed [01:13:30] with studio work. Uh, and I made it, um, a curatorial decision to parade the queer community through my studio. And so that's a whole subsector of a body of work that I I intentionally cultivated. But then there were these moments where I would just be so saturated with that where I would just I would seek out a strange person that had absolutely zero invested in my visibility or fame, And they would be, And sometimes they wouldn't [01:14:00] be, um, queer, you know, they'd be, you know, a straight family or something like that. That would just be like a fun studio project to do, you know? And, uh, it was very I I noticed. For me, it was very much a an an alleviation of the queer identity thing. I mean, the queer community, I think I don't know how it is in New Zealand, but it can be a very demand. She's a very demanding girl. She'll take your time if you know she'll [01:14:30] take as much time as you'll give her. And she she has No, She makes no bones about that. So I think there were ways that I'd sort of resent that and fight back by doing work that was not attached to that identity, you know? What was it like doing that shot of his office? Well, see that? That's kind of what those moments are. Really? What sort of remind me of my [01:15:00] special proximity to him? Uh, because he would. He was very proactive. He would occasionally pick up the phone to me and say, This is happening. You need to come down. So he was mayor for a day and he said, This is happening. You need to come down. And I was and there were other photographers there. Uh, but it was by gesture of his invitation that I was there or because I I like I said I was a little bit clueless, and I didn't really have a mature vision realm where I should [01:15:30] be editorially. So, unfortunately, he saw fit to mentor me in that way, and it was exciting. It was kind of like the Marx Brothers had hit City Hall, you know, and, um uh, additionally, when he was dressed up like a a clown, there was, uh, an editorial photographer that was hired by the newspaper that was doing the the publicity piece for the the Ringling Brothers Carnival Circus. And, um, But Harvey [01:16:00] invited me as his personal photographer. So I got to go and you know, piggy back that so he would occasionally call me up like that and say, Come on down and do this thing. So it was It was cool. It was really, really cool on that level. I. I wished I had done more, you know? Uh, no. On six, I have almost no coverage of Not on six. For example, I just I Maybe I was working on a show or whatever, but I was absent [01:16:30] for that. So it's sort of ironic that I'm depicted as part of the think tank, you know, in in the film. No, but it's that's not the reality I I can see strategically why they would just sort of, you know, lumped me in with that group. But that wasn't my relationship to Harvey at all. So there was a lot of collapsing of stories in that just to to advance the the narrative of [01:17:00] a, uh, the short narrative time of a feature. But I think they distilled the sort of art fag aspect of it very well. Like to be this sort of gay, Every man, a newly formed queer identity, sort of covering covering everything as it's going on. I think that's fairly accurate, in a sense, you know, and and symbolically and metaphorically correct and serves, you know, serves the storytelling [01:17:30] very well. In that respect. How did his assassination affect you? Um, I was pretty traumatised to be truthful. Um, I tell a really good story, which is is strangely true. Uh, I was photographing the ballet Trocadero, you know, the all male ballet troupe. And, uh, we were in San Jose and I actually met the principal dancer, [01:18:00] uh, who invited me to come shoot from the wings at casual camera. And that was a good story in and of itself. But I'll just go. I'll cut to the chase. So we're in San Jose and we come back that Monday morning that Harvey's killed on a Greyhound bus, and, um, and as we're getting off the bus, I hear our bus driver talking to another bus driver who's parked there, and that bus driver says, Did you hear that Mayor Scotti and Harvey Milk were killed, [01:18:30] And then the guy says and then Harvey Milk's no loss, and I and I'm walking off the bus walking past this conversation and I'm like, What did I just hear? You know? And so then we get in a taxicab, and sure enough, over the radio comes the news. So I immediately started sobbing my brains out and was pretty much crying all day. You know, uh, interestingly, though, in a sense, that was a turning point, because I think both Scott [01:19:00] and I really utilise the preservation of Harvey's papers and, in my case, the documentation of the posthumous reverberations of Harvey's life. Uh, the the various, um, memorials that occurred throughout time. That was one of the ways we coped with our trauma was to sort of just make that our mission in life. And then, of course, when he died in 96 the torch was very much handed over to me, even though there's certainly other significant [01:19:30] players and people who made significant contributions to that effort. There very much was a lineage there, and I have to wonder if the two of them had not targeted me, had not designed me for that possible role in life. You know, like there was there was enough of a consistency with the attention to it that makes [01:20:00] me think they had that in mind, you know? I mean, nobody ever thinks they're going to be assassinated, but somebody hopes that you know, journalistically or editorially, that their story is told. You know, I think anybody who's kind of in a process like that would would have a mind for How do I make sure that this is positive, positive in history, in a tangible way. So I was really lucky in that sense, you know, And I, I really, [01:20:30] truly got the sense that more so for Scott than me. It was a tremendous coping mechanism, and partly for me, I. I enjoyed a certain amount of autonomy for many years because I was relied upon for the visual component. But I never had to spin. I never had to have a spin like I have to have now. So he was always the spokesperson, you know, they called him the widow Milk, and he was very forthcoming with a kind of [01:21:00] very sort of ADA that, you know, this is he was our Martin Luther King type of thing. And his story he needs to be preserved and and told. And, uh and he took that sort of passion to the grave with himself and, uh, and I up to that point, I always deferred to him as the spokes model. And and then after he died, little by little, it became imperative that I step up, you know, and I hated that [01:21:30] because I don't like public speaking, and I don't like revealing my political identities. You know, I don't like taking a stand. Ultimately, I just I'm kind of a still. I just prefer to be playful and not politicised, you know, in a way. But I understand the necessity of it. I mean, I was for you. I was talking to, uh, a student in, um, Romania [01:22:00] and, yeah, lots of little pits along the way. Like just it's it's kind of legion, you know, they they see the movie, they google my name, and, um, and then they they chat me up, you know, And it's a bit of a struggle because a lot of them just sort of think you're the latest video game, you know? And so it's I always have to kind of distil. OK, well, who's really kind of needs to sit down here and have [01:22:30] a chat and who just thinks, you know, I have a I'm the coolest thing since baked bread today, you know, and and, uh, I I love those kids too, you know, they're great. Um, and some of them are troubled. You know, there's some There was some suicidal ideas, and it's crazy stuff that comes my way. But, um, it's very much a prediction that Harvey made that that that would be the demographic that we would want to reach out to and need to reach [01:23:00] out to. And now it's here. So I'm not gonna not do it, you know? But my own, uh, for example, the post production phase in my work is really suffering now and has been, in a sense, because of the floodgates opening after the movie mill came out. Um, and and I don't mean to be greedy because I have produced two exhibits and they were very exciting and and, um, [01:23:30] nurturing and and towards the ultimate goals of publishing books. But I'm really at the point of frustration where I wanna publish. I'm sick of spinning. I want to publish books in my work. I want to posit them in history in a tangible way in case my memory, uh, degrades, um, or in case I get hit by a bus. Um, and I wanna do that. I wanna I wanna do it. I don't want somebody editing my work, you know, I've I've seen so many colleagues have other people, you know, they pass away [01:24:00] before their work gets edited by their own mind. And to me, that's a tragic thing. I don't want that to happen. So I'm actually considering moving up to Oregon. Uh, probably early part of next year where my lover has a house and I will, um, have the quietude to move into that second phase of of my my own body of work. And then, you know, who knows? Maybe I'll travel. Maybe I will grow in that [01:24:30] way where I can do the lecture circuit. And if there's books involved that might have to You know what I mean. Um, but, um, right now it's a little I'm a little frustrated. Yeah. Do you find with all of the interviews that or or do you think that with all of the interviews There will be a point where you you just have had enough of talking that you don't want to talk anymore. I don't know. You know, I, I think in a sense, [01:25:00] I I've never been very good at saying no. Um um, But, um, the irony of that is that collective memory is so fickle and the people's, except for a very sort of focused, uh, say doctorate project, [01:25:30] which is very topic specific. Um, people are only gonna remember these little sort of parcels of information and consolation. So I think, in a sense, my my spirit is that if you just keep on hammering away at it your deposit a small parcel of inspiration here and there and here and there that will be useful to somebody that will be useful to some [01:26:00] youngster that is possibly considering suicide or some youngster that is musing whether or not they want a career in photography. And and I get a lot of I mean, a lot of those the new legion of art fags. My work is resonating for them, and I get I hear from them. And so I feel like the the full essay is not what they're after. They just want the little sort of stroke, [01:26:30] you know. And so and that's usually for for me. When I look at other people's work, it's it's usually landing in a single paragraph of information or a a single photograph. And so I don't think it has to be this big tone, you know. But I sort of also strategically feel that by just waxing philosophically ad nauseum, uh, you'll get there. You'll get to that place where it's gonna be available, and it is [01:27:00] gonna land well with somebody and inspire them. And that's kind of why I do so many and, um and also I just, you know, I kind of follow the path of least resistance. It's like, OK, well, that guy sounds nice. You know, this work is good. He's devoted, you know? That's I. I will respond to somebody who's devotional about their work. That would be a first assessment, in my opinion, [01:27:30] you know, do you find there? Are you come across many people that maybe didn't like Harvey in the seventies, but have kind of done a complete about face? You know that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of you know, and you you get You get forgiving over time because you you have to realise that it's that sort of small pocket of information theory. It's like if somebody's gonna be involved in the solidification and the preservation of the legacy on [01:28:00] that level that has reached, I'm gonna pay attention to that even though I may have distaste for who the person is and how they're doing it, because I recognise the gravity of what it's effect, propagandistic or emotionally or inspiration will be. I will turn the other cheek to the mechanicals because I just get what what's going on now you know he is. Harvey is capturing [01:28:30] people's imaginations in a big way, and he would be tickled pink about that. He would love that, you know, he was definitely into reaching out and and reaching a lot of people. So I you know, I'm way more forgiving than Scott would have ever been, I can tell you that, but I have my limits, too. And I have put the Smackdown on people you know, for a perfect example. And this is this is I don't mind going public with this, but because I think It's a really compelling [01:29:00] example of how even Harvey would have been much more rigid about this. Uh, and Scott would have certainly at least held their feet to the fire. But, um, you know, one thing that a lot of tourists that come to the Castro go to is Harvey's restaurant there on the corner at at 18th, which used to be the Elephant Wa Bar, which was a very historically potent, you know, um, location and should be landmarked [01:29:30] ultimately, but and then, you know, the guy who on the The Elephant Rock got tired of the doing the business and retired, and, um, it became Harvey's, but it was always, uh, the property was always owned by Paul Langley, who was one of the biggest, most successful entrepreneurs in terms of real estate. He's one of the original gent of the Castro, and I don't really know Paul's history enough to know what kind of philanthropic work he did do [01:30:00] prior to electing to name his restaurant expediently Harvey's and then electing to expediently decorate it with seventies paraphernalia. Uh, it managerially and mechanically, they were kind of distasteful to me how they went about and did it. But yet at the end of the day, here's this place that has name and recognition. People go to it, they get their little history hit, they have their burger and they leave. [01:30:30] And those of us that know better He is the antithesis of what Harvey stood for in terms of, um, renters, protections and various grassroots energies. However, this all went down and I had distaste for it. Uh, but I I was wisely instructed by somebody, uh, a colleague who's in the nonprofit sector, who basically [01:31:00] said, You know, these people are educatable and and they will be, You know, our goal as a nonprofit is to slowly but surely enrol them in what that level of philanthropy should be, and they're not there yet, but they can be. They can be taught their responsibility in the community, and sure enough, within a few years time they did it. That business [01:31:30] finally grew up in that way. And I'm so glad I didn't like, you know, sort of harsh on them, you know, because that could have just closed them down, you know? And so I I'm glad that I kind of just took the low road on that. You know where Scott would have been Very demanding and like, you know. No, you can't name that. I can't name your rest ays without coughing up some money. So, uh, there's a lot. There's a lot of stuff like that, [01:32:00] you know? And there's Then there's all this folk art stuff happening where, you know, individuals just really they just take my image and, you know, steal it and make make whatever they're making. Uh, I think quilts or whatever. I you know, I don't have a problem with all that. They they're not cottage industries. They're just kind of folk artists, you know? So well, just finally, uh, you know, kind of going on from that II. I really love the idea [01:32:30] that photographs change and feeling and texture over time. So, you know, you take a photograph, you put it on the wall, and it has one kind of meaning. But then in 30 years time, you look at it again, and it can resonate in a completely different way. And I'm just wondering if you have any, um, kind of reflections on how your photographs have changed over time. Yeah. I mean, I think I think their self importance falls away a little bit, you know, [01:33:00] um, because because obviously, in the time space continuum, what is capturing people's imaginations today is gonna fall away tomorrow. Like Jose Sari is the perfect example. He is in his eighties. He was as important as Harvey Milk. The whole thing that he fostered, which is the imperial court system. The big drag ball communities in over 50 cities. I think at one point, uh, huge fundraising entity, Uh, they [01:33:30] all perished from AIDS. So many of them, uh, and then the leadership, which is him at the helm. And then there's still maybe another 20 cities that still have court systems. It's it's it's underappreciated now. And those are the people that really did dealt with a lot of, um, you know, tremendous adversity and harassment from so society and stuff. And so they're [01:34:00] I'm fortunate to be the bridging generation that has awareness of the old school and yet has, you know, AAA another awareness of what's coming down The pike and I will remain a vessel for appreciation of that. But my next generation won't necessarily have a direct connection to that, and it will fall away, regardless of the gravity of it. You know, that's why history is such an important tool [01:34:30] because it'll it'll still be positive and in such a way that if one wants to know, even though it's not on the public's tongue, they can't still go and find out. But it's what's on the public's tongue. That is really sort of where the currency is. And I mean by currency, I mean sort of metaphysical currency. You know, that's like, what are people engaged with? What's what's feeding their souls, what's capturing their imagination? Harvey Is it right now? And yet to me personally, [01:35:00] Jose SA, as is as important, if not more, you know, And I, you know, I could go into the reasons why, but they're trust me. They're solid, Um, and he's, you know, he's getting ready to pass on and drop his drop his mortal coil and and who knows? You know, if a movie will ever get made but should be so It's that kind of lineage where there's ebbs and flows and people's curiosities change, [01:35:30] and I think photography is very fleeting. Ultimately, you know, it's like it kind of drops away, you know, naturally. So I think. And also now with the sort of onslaught that happens in culture with photography. You know, people's attentions are diminished. People's investments are diminished. Um, [01:36:00] yeah. I mean, who who thinks about Bette Midler now? You know, right. When do you When do you talk about Bette Midler? I can remember being appalled that my new roommate was not into Bette Midler. What? You've got to be kidding me. You're not that impressed or invested or enchanted by Bett Miller. What? What is your problem? You know, and now you don't. You know, I saw the Vito Russo documentary and there's some Bette Midler footage in there. And her, [01:36:30] you know, her place in the pantheon of queer community heroes is solid. I mean, if you do the homework, it's there. And but yet, you know, ask ask the next guy on the street whether they care about Bette Midler, you know, and probably they don't. So I'm not that attached. Ultimately, I would hate it if my, um house burned down and my negatives burned. [01:37:00] Gareth was just like, horrified. He had that horrified look on his face that all the photographers could know, but don't you find it nice? Um, even if the public move on that, actually, you still have these images as Touchstones. Yeah, yeah. No, I'm I'm very classic in that sense that, um I my reality is very enmeshed with my body [01:37:30] of work and my journey to posit that work in in culture in a tangible way. Um, I've been very lucky, you know, to just kind of be able to invest so much energy and time in that, um and in a sense, in recent years, I've had to step back from that just out of a sense of self care. Like not to be so O CD about image making [01:38:00] and, um uh, at at the expense of the the intimates in my life, you know? And it's just like we can be very narcissistic. Ultimately, photographers can and, um, by necessity partly, But also I think there's limits, you know, and I think for me personally, when I reach levels of exhaustion or depletion around that world view and that way of existing [01:38:30] I I'm very happy that I'm teaching myself selfcare to the degree that I can put it down and put it aside and pay attention to the other dimensions of my life, which makes the return to it all the more joyous because you're just like I really earned this now you know. So before I was just kind of living it and that and that was that's that rite of passage of being a 20 something, but I'm no longer that.

IRN: 598
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089272
TITLE: Randy Alfred
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Randy Alfred
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; Anita Bryant; Bay Area Reporter; Bobbi Campbell; Briggs Initiative; CBS; Castro District; Coming Up; David Goodstein; Dianne Feinstein; Fruit Punch; GLBT Historical Society; Gay Power Gay Politics; George Moscone; HIV / AIDS; Harvey Milk; John Anderson; John Raines; KPFA; KPFK; KSAN; Larry Lee; Marcus Conant; Nancy Newhouse; Paul Volberding; Pride; Randy Alfred; Robert Hillsborough; San Francisco; The Advocate (magazine); The Gay Life; United States of America; White Night riots; activism; archives; coming out; community; crime; gay; gay liberation movement; growing up; hate crime; history; homophobia; interviewing; legacy; media; music; politics; profile; radio; scene; social
DATE: 18 June 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: San Francisco, San Francisco, United States of America
CONTEXT: In this podcast Randy talks about producing the radio programme The Gay Life, which broadcast on KSAN San Francisco in the 1970s and early 1980s.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: It's all in here, I think. Yep. Wow. So walk me through what we've got. Well, this is my main microphone. This was the main recording device, a Sony TCM 1 21 mono extra cassettes. These are extension cords. These are mainly connectors and cables to connect to any conceivable [00:00:30] because I was often plugging into house systems or not, you know, or just a small mixing board and stuff. So I eventually had I could connect virtually everything and some of the people working, I sort of became known when I showed up at an audio event of if somebody else was missing a connection, I probably had it. So yeah, this one, This came real close to appearing in the, uh, movie milk, but so I this this went around to a lot of those events [00:01:00] just and since I never officially stopped doing it, it never got it never ended my background. Well, I grew up in Boston. I went to school at Yale University in New Haven and the University of California in Berkeley for graduate school. And although I started out as a premed as an undergraduate, I started heading towards a career in so [00:01:30] sociological research and teaching sociology. And while I was at the University of California, I finally got in touch enough with my feelings that I came out of the closet. I was not one of the double life in the closet people. I was one of the repressed from himself and not allowing myself to acknowledge who I was. Um, and at about the same time as that when I in order to do that, I realised I had [00:02:00] to leave school because school was just not the proper place to get in touch with your feelings. If your main defence mechanism is in is neurotic intellectual, because all of all of the rewards in school are for neurotic intellectual. So, uh, I came out, and I was also I had been since I was a child. I'd been interested in journalism and, uh, newspapering and radio and TV and all of it, but had never really [00:02:30] received much encouragement to do that. Um, and I never actually properly trained in it, But journalism is sort of high shutter speed, sociology or else Sociology is simply journalism with a thyroid problem. It takes too long to find everything out um, so it was a It was for me, a very natural transition. Um, and I started freelancing for, uh, various publications and for KP FA radio [00:03:00] and then for radio, although the case freelancing came a little bit later along the line, and there's a more specific. So I was the news editor of the San Francisco Sentinel, which was at the time one of two fortnightly publications that came out in San Francisco treating what was then called the gay community slightly before it was called the lesbian and gay community. Before it was called the [00:03:30] LGBT community. And while I was working on the Sentinel, the Sentinel was a free distribution newspaper that came out every couple of weeks. There were also some other publications that got into the competition on and off, but the two main ones were the Sentinel and the Bay Area reporter, uh, one of my jobs working in the office because the the reason they managed to pay me Oops, sorry, because I could work because I put some time in in the [00:04:00] office as well as going out reporting, uh, was taking care of their, um, their mail subscriptions, which went out to basically the news media outlets, politicians and a few 100 if that paid subscribers around the country. Uh, but mainly it was just a list to sort of increase the influence of the newspaper. Um, and however, we knew that the list was out of date and the way we decided [00:04:30] to call it was by sending a postcard, sending postcards each to everybody on the list and saying we'd love to continue sending it to them. But we needed to know that their address was up to date. Please let us know because we're gonna recreate the the thing. And one of the calls came from Larry Lee at San Radio and at the time was the successor to the old, uh, at one point a competitor. But then eventually the successor to the old K MP [00:05:00] X. It was the number one rock, rock and roll station in the country and arguably in the United States. It was it was a big deal. It it made. And I don't know that it ever unmade any stars. But it made a few stars. Um, and they had a great news pro news department that put on news That was essentially from a leftist countercultural standpoint, but very factually based. It wasn't just screed or dialectics [00:05:30] or whatever, and it was my favourite news show in the world. So I started talking to Larry Lee, and, uh, we became friends and some more or less like phone friends. We had a drink together or something, or actually, it was later that. But, um, the way I actually started working then at K was this way. In June of 1977 immediately after [00:06:00] the Anita Bryant victory in Florida, which was one of the the very big and first, possibly the first, the first voter, a referendum on a gay rights law and the gay rights law was repealed. And Anita Bryant I don't know how much his back history of it she was. She had been a, uh, Miss America runner up, and she was the spokesperson for Florida [00:06:30] orange juice, and she was a big deal in Christian evangelism when she led this campaign. And, uh, there was a huge reaction in San Francisco after the after the repeal of the law in Miami, and there was a huge amount of activism going on, and there was also a lot of tension between the LGBT community and the Latino community. Not that there was not a big [00:07:00] overlap there, but it was not very much of a perceived overlap at the time. And the week before the parade, the Pride parade in 1977 a, uh, white gay man was murdered by, uh, four Latino youths, actually, three and one of their friends. But, um, and a a very brutal stabbing in the Mission Neighbourhood. And, [00:07:30] um, which inflamed the the the Latino versus gay situation in San Francisco. Uh, pretty, pretty badly at the time in the fall when the trial started in 19. Yeah, it was the fall of 77 in the fall when the trial started. I had left the Sentinel, but I was looking for some place. [00:08:00] I wanted to cover the trials, and I was looking for some place to cover them. So I called up Larry Lee at, and I said, You know, the Hillsborough murder trials start tomorrow or start next week. I've forgotten when I called, um, who's covering it for you? And he said, Well, we didn't know that it was starting next week and we do want them covered. Would you like to cover them for us? Which is exactly what I wanted him to say. And so I started working [00:08:30] at KN for doing reports for their four daily news shows. I mean, not that I was on every day, but the reports that I gave could have been on on any one of those days. Um, and for a weekly half hour show they had at 10 o'clock on Tuesday nights called the Gay Life, which was produced by Larry Lee and, uh, Nancy Newhouse. And I was never quite sure if Nancy Newhouse was a lesbian by or straight. [00:09:00] But she was friendly, in any case. So And she was one of the co produced producers. Um, and that show was on through most of late, 1977 all the way through the spring of 1978. 1978. Uh, was the year of the Briggs Initiative, which [00:09:30] brought anti gay electioneering to California. The Briggs initiative would have prohibited any school district in the state from hiring anyone who was gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender. It wasn't even in the mix at the time or who talked about those things or belong to any organisation. It was this very a broad, sweeping, uh, totalitarian [00:10:00] prohibition. McCarthy, McCarthyite, um and so the whole or the the all of pride 1970 that came up for vote in November of 1978. All of the Pride festivities in the spring of 1978 were heavily focused on defeating the Briggs initiative. And that year San covered the parade and [00:10:30] the, uh, speeches from the stage afterwards live on on the Sunday of which was sort of a high point in a way. And then Larry Lee left case to go to, um I don't know if he went to KPIX TV right away and then to KTAKTEH TV, which was, uh, a public broadcasting or the other way around. But he left radio to go into TV, [00:11:00] and the show really lost its producer. And I was calling every month from July, August, September October, asking when it was going to start again, and who is the producer and, um, in November or possibly December. Actually, it was December because it was after the assassination of Harvey Milk. When I called, they said, it's starting again in January and [00:11:30] you're the producer, so and where it's not gonna be a weekly half hour show. It's gonna be a monthly hour long show. And so I took over the show and I'd actually never done show production before. And when I started, I needed someone to show me some of the the more physical aspects of it. We were still editing with Blade and Block, and the show was on monthly for [00:12:00] the first five months, I believe. Then it was every two weeks for the next six months, and then in December, it became a weekly show. So what age were you when you when you joined KN. I started working for them, I think I said in 77 for the Hillsborough trial, which took place in the fall, I would have just been either just about to or just turned 32. [00:12:30] So less than half my current age can you paint a picture for me of what San Francisco was like for, um, yourself as a gay man in in in the late seventies? Disneyland. Um, in the late seventies, it was pre AIDS. It actually wasn't pre AIDS, but we didn't know about AIDS um, and almost. And [00:13:00] there were people flocking from here from all over the country to come to live. There are people coming here to come to visit. Uh, there were more than 100 gay and lesbian bars around town. There were a dozen or more, maybe a dozen. And there are probably about a dozen bathhouses and another six, sex clubs that weren't fully bathhouses. Um, there was cruising on the streets at all hours. There were three [00:13:30] big gay neighbourhoods. Four really Be well. There was a Castro which had taken over from the historic Polk neighbourhood. Uh, and then there was also still the the old tenderloin, which had been what sociologists call an area first settlement where people first land because there are a lot of there are a lot of one room occupancy, hotels and places for people to stay. Um, that scene was a little bit more hustler I and also [00:14:00] a little bit more drag queen I Polk Street had an active street scene. It also had a lot of really nice apartments within around, uh, say six or seven blocks in either direction in which, uh, the more established and and older gay male clientele lived. Lesbian scene was very much, uh, to to the knowledge [00:14:30] of an outsider essentially like me. But there was stuff outside of of, um there were this bar in Coal Valley. I think that one was that was mods. There was another one out on Gey pegs, Uh, and the Valencia Street scene had just started. Um, there there was plenty of physical loving to be had by anyone who who wanted to to indulge. [00:15:00] But it was also, politically, the time of an E fluorescence. Because I worked on the Pride parade in 75 76 77 78. Maybe in 79. Or maybe not. But I know that in the 1970 in 1978 the job that Roland Gambari, who [00:15:30] was one of the people on the Fruit Punch Collective which did the radio show on KP FA in 1978 he and I, we were both working on a new newspaper called the San Francisco Bay Times, Um, which didn't really make it past three issues. But then a couple of the pe a couple of people in it started a newspaper later called coming up, which, after many, many more years changed its name to the Bay Times [00:16:00] again and which is still being published. So there's a it's not quite the same newspaper, except it really has the organisational DNA of the original newspaper in it. Um, Roland and I took over the job of doing the directory of LGBT organisations. Actually, I think it was the direction directory of lesbian and gay organisations. So, um there were over Uh huh. [00:16:30] No, I think it may have been over 200 because we did a I did a, uh, a programme Uh a, uh San Francis at the history of the GL BT History Society, Hank Wilson and Paul Lichtenberg and I did an exhibit in 2002 called Butterflies and Oranges. That was about the political E fluorescence and the community. The the huge number of community groups that were founded in that first [00:17:00] year, starting with Anita Bryant. Uh, there was already plenty happening, but starting in 77 with the Briggs initiative in 78 and then just continuing to build everything from new newspapers, uh, new social groups, lots of new political groups. Uh, there were at that. At one point there were four different, uh, LGBT Democratic clubs in the city. Uh, and the and the Republican Club, Uh, [00:17:30] the musical groups, the the the marching band, the choruses. Uh, and what was really interesting is, for the first time in almost a decade, there were a large number of organisations in which lesbians and gay men were working together. There were some gay men who couldn't deal with lesbians. And there were some lesbians who couldn't deal with gay men for a variety of reasons and even those of us who wanted to work together, we sometimes found that there were difficulties [00:18:00] to be overcome. But there was a, uh, a vision of seeing that there needed to be politically, at least a united front, uh, to deal with some of the political issues where we were categorised the same way. Um and in fact, I actually wrote an essay or an editorial in the First Bay Times called one people, two genders, three cultures in which I meant that we really were for political reasons and seen from the outside as one [00:18:30] group. The two genders I now recognise is probably too man and categorical to match. The real diversity that we've discovered is out there because there are a lot of people who don't identify with either one or do identify with both. But, um, with both of those two, or but saying that what we needed was to have a unified political front to understand that we were different, especially at, um, certain [00:19:00] parts of our social life that merged into our sexual lives and to leave each other space for that but that we could have but that therefore we could have a a lesbian culture, a gay men's culture and a co sexual culture operating together in the same city, uh, and that this newspaper was about that third, that third one, the sexual culture, um, that that came up because the lesbians who were on the collective putting the paper together said we'd like to have a women's [00:19:30] page and they thought there was gonna be opposition from from the men. And our attitude was, that's a great idea. Maybe we should have a men's page, too. And then the women said, Oh, no, no, no. Why would you want that? And we said, Well, why do you want a women's page? We said, Well, this is why we want it there, you know? Then then there'll be a place on the page where the women who don't like to think about what gay men do after 11 o'clock at night or whatever. Um, they just could not look at that page if they don't want to. So [00:20:00] let's just have separate anyway. So that was probably too long an answer for that question, which was what it was like in the seventies. So I mean, there was a rich sexual culture, um, there and politically and culturally it was it was a most of the or a lot of organisations that were founded then are still around, and one of the interesting things is it's because of that strength of of organisation and community building and what [00:20:30] sociologists call institutional ramification that we had all of these organisations available when AIDS struck in the early eighties because first of all, there was a pattern to build on and new organisations got created. But during the eighties, the organisations that existed before some of them couldn't survive, some did survive, but the [00:21:00] only new organisations that survived were ones that were dealing with the health crisis and the political fallout from the health crisis. So But, I mean, it was It was a wonderful time. It it had its ups and downs We had. We lost Miami. We lost three Midwest three Midwestern, uh, referendum in 1978. Minnesota Saint No. Saint Paul. Eugene. Actually, that's Western. Not Midwestern Wichita, Saint Paul and Eugene [00:21:30] or three. But we won the Briggs initiative. Uh, in at the end of 1977 we elected Harvey Milk 1978. We had three losses in the spring. November of 1978. We defeated the Briggs Initiative. Three weeks later, Harvey Milk was assassinated. I was living here then. I had moved in to this place in the spring of 1978. So the the gay life on case N when did that first start? Its origins are shrouded [00:22:00] in mystery. Uh, I'm not sure Whatever. The oldest tape that's on that's been digitised 19. I mean, there was a gay liberation show in 1973. There was a one off. The gay life could have started as early as 1975 but more likely It's 1976 by the way, in that half hour format, when it was a half an hour a week and it had [00:22:30] a bigger budget, I mean, I basically I didn't have a budget I had. You know, we'll pay you this much to do it. You can come into the studio and use our equipment and our tape and all that. Uh, and at the beginning, they they had some people there to to show, to teach me editing and and so forth. But, um, But in the half hour version, one of the other freelancers on the show was Randy Schultz. And I'm trying to think who else and the and also it also had reports from [00:23:00] some of the straight but not narrow reporters at Case who were covering City Hall or covering gay events and so forth. So it wasn't exclusively only LGBT voices on it. You know it. It was it was a it was a day of, you know, it was an era of I still have some buttons from that era. There was AAA parade button that said straight but not narrow that people wore so anyway in the show was it aimed at a gay [00:23:30] audience? Or was it more a straight away when I took it over? Actually, no. This I borrowed from from Larry Lee. So in 1977 when I joined the show, it had an opening that I kept all the way through 1984. And, uh, I added, I added some country western music when the when the station went from rock and roll to country. Um, the opening was This is the gay life KSANS public Affairs [00:24:00] show for gentlemen who prefer gentlemen for women who prefer women and for people who prefer people, you don't have to be gay to listen. And we kept that. And it's really interesting because I found out that, for instance, my straight dentist listened to it because he he was it. Eventually, we should talk about time slots if you want the inside radio stuff. But it it would come on at six o'clock on Sunday morning, which is called sort of the public affairs ghetto. When the [00:24:30] radio stations had to do public affairs programming so they would put it into whatever hours, they they had the smallest audience so that they would lose the least amount of advertising revenue. So although eventually one of the guys in the advertising department actually sold an ad on my radio show. But, um, so that was the opening and and the idea was explicitly to give people permission to stay tuned. [00:25:00] So the audience it was assumed, and the other thing that I always felt was important about that was, What about the person who's right at the edge of the closet? What about the person living in Modesto who doesn't have the big social support of places to go Gay Community centre? We didn't have a gay community centre. Well, yeah, we did have gay community centres. Then there were unofficial gay community centres, but, um, gay social services and so forth. [00:25:30] He needed permission. He or she needed permission to listen and or an alibi if a disapproving parent walked in, you know, so I always felt it was very important to do that, and I've said Modesto specifically, it's in the Central Valley. It's within the the sound, right within the the signal range of case. But it's very rural, very fundamentalist on the one hand, or [00:26:00] or um, Mexican American Catholic on the other fundamentalist white Protestants or Mexican American Catholics on the other and neither community very approving of of, uh, gay people in any way. And but there was a, um there were some organisations out there that would regularly send me their announcements of meetings. And I always read those on the air. Uh, because one of the things you do in public service programming is you read the public [00:26:30] service announcements and and I got feedback from them that it was really important. It was one of the few places that people could hear about it because the local newspaper was ignoring their organisation. But they were hearing people were hearing about it on the radio. So So I was aware that the audience wasn't just San Francisco. It was at least not and not only the inner bay area of, say, Oakland, Richmond, Marin, the Peninsula, Palo Alto and so forth. And at [00:27:00] the time, actually one of the very earliest gay techie groups formed in the South Bay that was forgotten. The name of it, it had some cute name, but, um, and but also even farther away, Sacramento, Modesto, for we didn't quite reach as far as Stockton? Yes, Stockton. So that that so I was aware of of people being out there. So when you were pitching the programme to a wide [00:27:30] audience, did that change the kind of a language that you would use or the types of programming that you would you do, like in types of interview? Well, first of all, language is to some extent, always regulated by the Federal Communications Commission, which and one of the things that everybody in radio learned at the time. I mean, there are these seven forbidden words of things that you couldn't say, and I'm not sure I could reel them off now or not. But do you Do you want me to try? What? What? What could you say? You couldn't [00:28:00] say Piss. Shit, cunt. Fuck. So was it cock or cock sucker? Um, can't remember. That's only six or so anyway. But you just couldn't say those words. They shut the radio, you know, they do huge fines and threatened to pull the station licence and all that. Um, occasionally, early on, I wasn't doing much going out and taping events, so I always had people in [00:28:30] in the studio and and the show was essentially taped, uh, anywhere from two days to sometimes two weeks if I was going away or going on vacation. But usually, you know, I'd be in there on Tuesday or Wednesday, taping the show for the weekend. Um, so I could either bleep it or I could stop right then and ask them to to say it some other way and then edit. Edit that out. Just cut it out. Um, And as it was taping, I used the I would. Any time I knew there was gonna be an edit, [00:29:00] I'd have these little slips of paper that I just put in the open real tape. Tuck it just as the at the at the intake point on the tape and then as I, I know where, where, where all of my compulsory edits were, Um, when AIDS came along. And actually even a little bit before, because I I had I had done some shows on health issues and there were STD S were an issue. They're all treatable, but we needed to tell people that they were treatable. [00:29:30] Uh, I don't think I ever hesitated to use clinical language in describing things and I usually had, I would say, at the beginning of the show and at the beginning of the segment, if if it wasn't the first segment in the show that because this is discussion of health matters, that there was gonna be clinical language explicitly describing sexual acts performed by some gay men. And that was the language as [00:30:00] or something close to that as I remember it, Um, and the first time it would come up, I would also then repeat that just so that people knew that that wasn't a fluke. They're gonna hear more words like receptive anal intercourse or active oral intercourse or, uh, whatever. I think there was one discussion, and actually, it was taped outside. No, no, no. He came to the studio who was a straight doctor in [00:30:30] Vallejo who published a paper on what he called Brach Protic sex. Which meant basically it was about he was using the Greek for arm, arm and asshole, except it was in Greek. And he published this paper about Brach Protic sex. Uh, and he was on the show and we were discussing it, but he didn't use we all. We didn't use any any of the words that you weren't allowed to use, so you so it was OK to use those. But again, [00:31:00] I always felt it's good to put those there because someone's listening with a kid or somebody who supports our community but doesn't want to know the details of what goes on behind closed doors. So I just felt that rather than censorship, the best thing to do was to let people know that there was gonna be explicit language. Can you talk a wee bit about, Um, I guess the value of radio in that time I'm thinking, because this is pre Internet [00:31:30] pre cellphone. The ways that people communicated was quite different. It was It was pre Internet and pre cell phone, and it was also it was even pre, um, telephone classified ads where the newspaper would print a classified ad, Uh, and then you could call and listen to the person's message and or leave a message. And so for that, hadn't even that that, I think was much [00:32:00] later in the eighties, that that happened. Um, we had as means of communication, the the ancient ones of, you know, the there was telephone and it was tele faggot there was, You know, there was. There was there was a very extensive grapevine of of stuff. And, um, there were newspapers of there were, you know, we had the LGBT newspapers. [00:32:30] I mentioned Bay Area reporter um, the Sentinel. There was one called the Voice. For a while, there was one called the Crusader, which was put out by a crazy, uh, minister named Reverend Ray Bro, who was kind of an agent provocateur who most people figured was probably in the pay of the CIA or some other thing just because he always caused more trouble than than he ever [00:33:00] did any good. Um, and in terms of electronic media, there were no, I mean, it was pre cable, at least in terms of cable networks and so forth. I mean, to the extent that there was cable, it was just a way of pulling in stations from a from afar. For people who lived on the periphery, there was cable television, actually, um, radio was the only place where we [00:33:30] had, uh, electronically where we had our own shows. We had our own newspapers. There was fruit punch in, uh, which at KP FA in Berkeley. KP FA is, uh, the flagship station of the Pacifica Foundation. It's a nonprofit, um, largely a volunteer effort. I don't think anybody ever got paid there for producing the show. Um, and Case san was proud of the fact that the gay life, [00:34:00] which never changed its name even though we changed the opening wordage about we included lesbians and so forth. Uh, because we felt there was a history and there was a brand that we had was proud of the fact it was the first, apparently the first regular programming in the United States on a commercial station for lesbians and gay men. WBA I in New York, which is also a Pacifica station, had something, but that was again a nonprofit [00:34:30] station. So this was commercially, um, and KPFK in Los Angeles. Another Pacifica station may also have had, uh, a a radio show. I'm not sure they did have a radio show. I just can't remember its name. Um, so if if you wanted I mean, the point is there are the newspapers. The [00:35:00] newspapers were coming out nearly as basically, as you know, there there was one newspaper coming out. They alternated. So they were coming out one every week. Even when they were, each one was a fortnightly. And then eventually they both became weeklies, too. So, uh, so they were as timely as the radio show was. It wasn't as if we were doing live stuff. We did one live show, but, um I mean, I think the important part was it [00:35:30] was electronic. You could listen to it. You could hear voices, Uh, you could hear interviews in depth of with with book authors. You could get questions back and forth. Um, and what am I trying to think of? There's some. There's another advantage going on here that I just tried to pull out of the air and I got lost. Um, musicians, if if I got, [00:36:00] uh, an LGBT musician sent me a record, we'd play it, and I interviewed them, and I'd also it was good for me, too, because sometimes you finish your show and you've got 52 minutes and 33 seconds, and you know you've got to go to at least 56 or they're gonna be angry that the studio personnel had to do the filling in, you know, so apart from precisely labelling this week's show last 58 30 or whatever was to get above [00:36:30] and in into the right range. Um, and musical fillers are helpful for that. They're also helpful for breaking up the talk talk, talk of the show. And we were on a rock and roll station so I could play. I couldn't. I didn't do the disco artists. And I didn't do the country artists either. But I did do rock and folk so I could get the LGBT rock and folk people on. Um, [00:37:00] so, yeah, Holly Nero was a favourite on the show, for instance. Um and what am I trying to think of about the music? Wait a minute. I should be here taking notes because I'm having three thoughts at once and then forgetting which one I want to come back to. Uh, well, Oh, yeah. So when the When the station changed from rock and roll to country at the end of October or early November of 1980 a lot of people [00:37:30] at the station some were just totally irritated that it was happening and left. Um, some were irritated and stayed. They grumbled, uh, it didn't bother me very much because at the time the music I listened to was rock and roll, country and classical. If the station had gone disco at that point, I might have been equally disaffected. The interesting thing is, in retrospect, disco sounds much [00:38:00] better. And the reason disco sounds much better now than it did then, if you were listening to, it is the only thing that still gets played is the good stuff. The the top 5% of it. And it's the same as true. If you listen to classic rock, you're listening to the top 5% of it. And it's probably to some extent, true of the classical music that you hear most of the time is the bad stuff gets forgotten. And as every once in a while, somebody goes back and says, Oh, here's you know this underperformed [00:38:30] piece blah, blah, blah. And yes, it's an underperformed piece, but it's usually not a masterpiece, as it turns out. So, um, so I'm not saying that I won't ever listen to disco. Now, Uh, my partner is a big Donna summer fan, so but the point is, it's the good, so but the point is that we switch to country, OK? And I thought, I wanna keep I wanna keep the show on. And there was this perception at the time that gay equals disco [00:39:00] because LGBT well, especially gay discos, are sort of like leaders in playing the stuff defining what was hits. And in San Francisco, in New York and in L A. It was an important influence and an important audience, and and the people who were producing those records, you know, knew what was going on. But so I what I did was, but I knew that there was an extensive LGBT country and Western [00:39:30] scene in San Francisco. So I wrote a memo that covered all of the LGBT country bars, all of the bars that even had a country and western night, all of the bars. That and then all of the bands that played all of the LGBT country Western bands that I knew about all of the bands that played [00:40:00] in LGBT clubs on occasion, in addition to what other other gigs they have, plus, all of the country and Western apparel and outfitters were that were explicitly that were part of the gay community or in gay neighbourhoods, um, and, um, and covered everything from Sonoma County in the north to Morgan Hill in the South. So it's like the full bay area turn in the memo and this is supposed to be my my opening shot in the campaign [00:40:30] to keep the show. So I got the memo. I sent one copy to, uh, the programme director one copy to the advertising director who, because these are all essentially advertising leads and a blind copy to the one guy in out sales straight who had, who had once sold my show oops, accidentally sold my show. I felt he deserved a blind copy of Of the Thing. So I turned it in, put it in, put it in the boss, my boss. I answered [00:41:00] to the programming director put put the memo in the boss's mailbox and the other guy's mailbox, and I'm in the studio getting set up to create the next the next week's show. It's like a small studio with about half the size of this part of this room. Yeah, and, um, get a phone call from the station manager secretary who would now be called an administrative assistant in those days, she was still a secretary and said, Uh, are [00:41:30] you free? Werner would like to see you in his office, and it didn't sound bad or whatever, but it was just 10 minutes since I turned the thing in. So I said, Sure, I'll come right in and walked in and my boss So this is like my boss had taken it and gone to his boss with the memo, and he's there at the tape at, at his desk looking through it page by page and said, This is This is great. This is magnificent. You saved us. This, like this is this is this [00:42:00] mother lode of leads that we can work with the community and all that. And he said, In case you're wondering about your show, it's on. Don't worry about it. We're keeping your show. So it was just sort of like to me, this was the opening shot. But it was the memo that this was like Boom, it was just what they wanted. I think partly also, they didn't know where they were going to get opposition from staff, you know, And this was like I wasn't leaving. I wasn't grumble I wasn't even grumbling. I was saying, [00:42:30] you know, I got with the programme real quickly and that's how I survived in radio while I was at, I went through. There was a change of ownership. A change of there were at least at least six or seven different programme directors, three general managers, a move of the studio to Oakland. And I stayed on through all of that. So surviving [00:43:00] in radio, um and and when as a freelancer, when I, uh I wrote the complaint that the National News Council found that CBS in 1980 had, uh, explicitly lied about events in San Francisco to make a political point on this alleged documentary called Gay Power. Gay Politics and for which CBS apologised, [00:43:30] uh, on air eventually. But I was very proud of it. And the person who was doing publicity there, in fact, you know, sent out news releases about how the producer of a show and that and that I was gonna cover it and and and also I I had while I was there, I had completely taped the complete deliberations of the National News Council, which ran across 2. 5 hours of shows, I think because it was a long A long thing. So So how did the gay community respond to the programme? [00:44:00] Beats me. I mean, I never knew how many people might be listening, whether or not we had 2000, 10,000 or 20,000 or 200,000. It was just like, um, people. I mean, I know people mentioned to me that they heard it, and I also was able to take stuff from the programme. Highlights from the programme and use them in my [00:44:30] column in the newspaper, which even after, even when I wasn't on staff at the Sentinel, um, between and after my two gigs as being the news editor or editor in chief, I had the column a lot. Um, and I could I use the radio. I used the radio show highlights from the radio show as material for the column, and I also used the column to promote the radio show. [00:45:00] And I don't know, it was usually in, as I referred before to the public affairs ghetto of like, early morning hours, or we we hours that, um, those usually weren't even measured by the the rating services by Nielsen and Arbitron. And that's why they were in those time slots because they're not gonna, because not only are they not caring to bother, to try to sell the stuff anyway, [00:45:30] but they're not worried about it, bringing down the station's 24 hour average. So the radio show a lot of my my time slots would be like six o'clock on Sunday morning or the best I had was when it was on at one o'clock on Sunday morning and repeated at 88 o'clock. Sunday morning is actually a pretty good time in most demographics, not necessarily among gay men and lesbians who might [00:46:00] have been out late on Saturday night. But not all of us will have been out late. The other thing was, there was one point at which it was on at two o'clock Saturday morning and then eight o'clock Sunday morning, or something like that. And, um, there were several occasions on which, very annoyingly while in the wee hours of the morning, entertaining a newly met friend, uh, and listening [00:46:30] to rock and roll on case and suddenly being interrupted by my own voice. And I don't know what he may have thought when you know, like, may have thought I was playing a tape or you know, it just way too much. You know, that type of ego is not helpful in a situation like that. But, uh, and maybe somewhere else somewhere, someone right now is gonna say, You know, the weirdest weirdest trick I ever had [00:47:00] is I was in bed with this guy and we were doing this and all of a sudden he was on the radio while we were, But that probably yeah, if he's not telling it right now. And it happened on two or three occasions over the several years that there was a either a one o'clock or two o'clock in the morning time slot. So quite And I'd forget, you know, because I'd I'd put the show away and hand the tape in and put it on the shelf where it's gonna get played from and send the station my bill and [00:47:30] then forget, and I might or might not actually hear it run on the air. So you were saying earlier that the majority of shows were Pre-recorded? Yes. Um, there was one time when I did a gaze in jail show. Uh oh. And then we were on at We must have been on Saturday morning, like at six o'clock or something like that. And I went down to, uh, the San Francisco County Jail [00:48:00] and interviewed people on, um, who were in the There was a what? What it used to be called the Queen's tank, and that now is called the the Gay Unit or something like that. Um, and the jail holds people at the county jails hold people awaiting trial who can't who don't have haven't posted bail so they can't get out ahead of time or people who are sentenced to terms of one year or less in the US. If it's or in California, [00:48:30] if it's more than a year, you go to state prison, which is more distant and more rigorous and more serious in a whole lot of ways. But and I interviewed the sheriff who was very friendly with the LGBT community and who also was a rock and roll fan. So he loved being on case N and, um, we did The one hour show was taped, but he brought to the studios downtown. We had a three hour call in following [00:49:00] the show, which was on on A Because it was a talk show that followed. And I took over the talk show that morning and it was like 7 to 10 or 6 to 9. I can't remember what the actual hours were. Maybe the show was on at seven, and then we're on from 8 to 11. It was a long call in thing, and so he had his people who are currently inmates. There are three or four of them now. He got to select them, so they were sort of like, likely to be modelled inmates. But they had a microphone, [00:49:30] a live microphone out to the public. Now I suppose they're not going to get too outrageous because they're going back to jail in any case, and not that there's be a question of them be getting beaten or anything. But there are ways in which jailers can be kind and ways in which jailers can follow. But but I still thought it was very, um, very, very brave of the Sheriff Mike Hennessy, um, [00:50:00] to allow inmates to be on live television. He was there, too, with them, but to be on live radio taking phone calls from the public. And that was the that was the one that one live show. Yeah. I mean, I participated in the 1978 broadcast from the parade in June, but that was before I was producing the show. And it wasn't an official. That was a That was a production of the news department, technically not of the public affairs Department, except that they were the same people with different wearing different hats. But [00:50:30] I guess having it pre-recorded means then you've actually got an archive of, of, of, of shows. I. I Is this why these shows have survived it? Because they were prerecorded, they were prerecorded. And because I was never an official employee of the station but an outside contractor and that the technical point of view was that I was, um, running what [00:51:00] do they call it? A syndication of one. That they were just buying an outside producer show and that my compensation for it was whatever I got for cash, plus use of their facilities to to record it and and so forth. Um and I got the princely sum when I started of $50 per show. So if we adjust for inflation, not [00:51:30] exactly sure what that would be today, but probably around $250 per show and after several years of doing it, and when I no longer needed somebody from their engineering staff to do the actual editing at my instruction. But I was doing it with my own two hands, Um, and because the shows were much more polished and they were getting notice. Occasionally, other newspaper columns picked them up but picked up information about [00:52:00] them. So, you know, they knew it was an asset to the station. I thought I deserve more, and I thought I deserve 60. So I went in and asked for 75 and the boss looked and he said, Yeah, and I said, You know, because I don't require these other used to You have to have someone And the boss said, Yeah, sure. At which point I realised I should have asked for 100. I mean, I asked for 75 because I wanted 60 he has 75. And he said, Yeah, so, um [00:52:30] so. But as a result of which I own the show, both the tape and the rights. So because I own the rights I, I took the tapes home, and, um, there were 252 shows of mine as I remember the number in the archive. Now. Now, to some extent, I occasionally some of them there were There were reruns. And when there were full [00:53:00] reruns, uh, there were 252 tapes that I delivered that are big, uh, one hour, one hour tapes that are on 10 inch open reel, uh, big boxes. Some of them don't have full hours in them because every once in a while I would rerun a segment, but not the whole programme. And in those days, the easiest way to do it rather than dubbing it was just take [00:53:30] the piece out and splice it into the other show. So they were in my back porch, which was a cool and almost dry place. I mean, it was not subject to mould, but it didn't really meet archival standards, I think. And then, in 1991 or two, I gave them to the historical society both the tapes and the rights. [00:54:00] And then sometime around 2000, as digital audio really ramped up. I started looking around for a way to to get them to be, um, to be digitised both for purposes of preservation, because although they had, they had all been stored. As I said, Cool place. Definitely a cool place and a nearly dry place. Not not archival dry, but, uh, and they've been stored tails [00:54:30] out, which I don't know. How much are we? This is for the public or for insiders, but basically it means that after the show has been played at its normal recorded speed and its playback speed, instead of rewinding it quickly to get to the beginning again, you leave it at the end because when the tape is loosely packed, there's less print through from one layer of tape to the next, which is one of the things that creates not quite an echo effect, but like, what's that happening in [00:55:00] the background effect that you sometimes hear on on tape where this has happened? So they were as stored as well as I could store them for the time being. But at the archive, they were stored properly, cool and dry. And then, um, I just missed a couple of I got the idea of digitising them like an hour a year too late to get the point at which stations were giving away their 10 inch tape machines because they didn't need them anymore. And they were in the way and would gladly have [00:55:30] not only given it been able to get a write off, but you know, a tax write off by giving it to a charitable organisation. But then, uh, John Raines, who had done radio in San Diego, was a volunteer at the historical society, and he wanted to digitise their entire audio collection. And he started with mine because it was well organised, and the reason it was well organised is because I'm a borderline obsessive compulsive. Um, [00:56:00] and I you know, the spices in my kitchen rack are not all organised alphabetically. I'm not at that level, but they're, uh, because I try to to be a I try to narrow my obsessive compulsive into areas where it's useful. So as for instance, in print, I'm a copy editor, uh, which is called, I think a subeditor in New Zealand. Uh, OK, so just sort of like of cleaning [00:56:30] up people's pros before it gets there or staying organised. Also, what the station got out of giving me an hour a week and using up an hour of their time and paying me the princely $50 or $75 for each show and giving me the studio time as well as the air time is they needed to file an annual report of what they had done in the public service. Because at the time, [00:57:00] US Broadcasting was governed by the Communications Act of 1934 here and after referred to as the act. That's an inside joke in the US, which is that in in the communication in all all memos about this that you would get from like station execs or the even the people you know, the the corporation that owns this, this chain of stations across the country when they would refer to they would always say, the the Federal Communications Act of 1934. And it always [00:57:30] then say, here and after, referred to as the Act capital A. It required that stations broadcast stations operate in the public interest, convenience and necessity. So it meant that once a year they filed this report of what they'd done for the public interest, which is then open to public inspection. And every five years I think it was Was it five or maybe got extended to seven? There'd be this mostly proforma renewal process where their broadcast licence [00:58:00] was subject to renewal. And if people objected that they hadn't done anything in the public interest, then this is one of their defences, like so they want a detailed documentation. So I was required by the station to file a report every week of who was on the show, what the topic, what organisations they represented or were part of and what the topics of the show were. So as a result of which [00:58:30] I had about 260 or more of these broadcast reports which, if you just enter them into a computer, creates an instant index by subject, title and so forth. So John liked that, and also the other thing is, although I did not say and each report the people were listed in order of appearance on the show, it wasn't a complete thing of who's speaking from what minute to what minute, but so he did that one first because it was the best organised archive. [00:59:00] Perhaps we can go through some of those shows and some of the content because you've got such a diverse range of things that you covered over that that period of time and I. I, um prior to, um meeting today, I kind of broke it down into a couple of, um, topic headings. I'm wondering if we could just go through those, Um, the the first one was politics and civil rights. And and maybe starting off with your coverage of things like gay liberation [00:59:30] and and the whole kind of political movement in the late seventies. OK, well, one memorable interview was with David Goodstein, who is the publisher of the Advocate and the publisher, and of of, uh, I think they had already I don't think they'd started out magazine yet. Maybe they didn't start out magazine. Maybe they bought it, But, uh, establishment gay publisher, Um, an ex stockbroker like Harvey Milk Goodstein was into a very [01:00:00] establishmentarian assimilationist mainstreaming political strategy. Um, the extreme left or on the left, uh, at the time, which included myself, there was the Gay Liberation movement which saw gay liberation as part of a wider, uh, if not socialist, at least a humanitarian connected [01:00:30] with the feminist movement. The civil rights struggles of African Americans and Latinos and the farm workers struggle in California. Um, and in the middle, sort of seeing both of being both a radical and an ex stockbroker at the same time is Harvey Milk. And in fact, the the tension between Harvey and David Goodstein is one of the central dramatic turns in the movie [01:01:00] milk. Um, I interviewed David Goodstein, uh, partly because at that point I had once worked for the Advocate and I quit. I was a freelancer. I wasn't on staff, but I quit working for them when he stopped being just a publisher and tried to found this national organisation, which he wanted not simply to be a national organisation, but to be the national organisation, which I found I [01:01:30] found politically the idea of the national organisation offensive and journalistically. I found the idea of that level of dabbling by a publisher is bound to affect what the newspaper covers, and the newspaper is therefore no longer anyway, um, but after a couple of years, a couple more years because that was happening around 76 77 and by 81 or 82 when I think I interviewed Goodstein, [01:02:00] uh, or maybe maybe 80. I don't know, 81 or 82. Whatever. Uh, I decided that in order for me to be journalistically correct, I was sort of looking around and thinking who whom I could get on the show. And I decided that he was the most important gay person in America who I hadn't interviewed, Uh, which is the is the reason I decided to do it. Uh, but it's also made for a great pitch. When I called, the secretary [01:02:30] called you and you get the secretary or whoever's in charge and say I want to do an hour long interview with him And the reason is this. You know, it's great when you have a pitch. That's the truth. Uh, but because it's flat. Oops, sorry. It's flattering to someone to be, you know? So So we did this hour long interview and, um, talked about different approaches. The assimilationist approach, the the the left wing, but still inside [01:03:00] the system of running for electoral office, sort of Harvey Milk populist approach and then the radical approach. Um, at the time, um and And we talked about our differences and we were very civil, even warm with each other in the tone of the interview. I don't know if you've heard this particular one or not, but but one of the things that really bothered me is at the time he was requiring all of his employees and any potential new employees [01:03:30] to take either EST the Earhardt seminars training or his gay version of it called The Advocate Experience, which was this sort of new age getting in touch with yourself and also using it as a form of communicating with other people who've gotten in touch with themselves sort of thing. It's highly packaged enlightenment. That's my view of it. Anyway, Uh, as a sociologist, I had studied [01:04:00] sociology of religion and and one of the people in my study group, uh, where each of us were looking. We were all looking at different cults. One, in fact, had looked at EST. I had never done it, and every time the person who was doing this would say, you know, you really might like this Randy and then he'd say No No, don't do it because you're my best informed outside person. You're the best informed person that I know who hasn't taken it. So I need that So But David was requiring [01:04:30] all of his employees to take it, And I raised the issue of Isn't this a religious test? Aren't you saying that you only want to work with people who have the same? And he was? And he said that? Well, no, it's about communications. It's like I'm running a business and I want to be able to work with people who know what I mean when I say a particular thing and I said, David isn't [01:05:00] Isn't that what got said 40 50 years ago when our parents, David Goodstein, was Jewish like I am? I said, when our when our parents, who and and uncles who had graduated law school were told that this law, this particular law firm, didn't want them because they didn't feel not that they didn't like Jews, but they didn't communicate well with them. It's when you say it's because, you know, And he said, No, no, no. I think it's different, but I mean his eyes sort of changed on that way. He just [01:05:30] sort of saw the what I was saying. And at the end of the interview, we sort of agreed to disagree. He still felt that it was, uh, basically that this was a management system and I was seeing that to me. It seemed to be religious or at least quasi religious, and that it was dealing with people's deeper values than just what's at work. Uh, we agreed to disagree. Um, where the interview. A lot of people listen to that one. I sent him a cassette of it, too, which [01:06:00] didn't automatically happen with somebody asked. I'd do it, but, like, sent him the cassette of it quietly. A few months later, he dropped that requirement for his employees because I don't think he'd ever seen the religious argument before. And he was sensitive to it. That was one of my one of the kind of interesting ones, because at the end, we didn't you know there was a sort of very civil. You could listen to it. I mean, it's I think it's kind of one of the fun ones, um, politically [01:06:30] Harvey Milk. And so you actually interviewed him and was it 77 or 78? Well, no. The Harvey Milk interview that's in the tape was before the show. I actually I was interviewing Harvey for for the for the newspaper I was working on at the time, The Bay Times. Uh, and I knew him well and also for the Sentinel beforehand, because when I started to work for The Sentinel, the Sentinel at the time, the newspapers were so cliqueish, um, [01:07:00] that I started working for the Sentinel. I also I knew Harvey through because I was involved in Bay Area Gay Liberation, one of the leftist groups I was talking about, Um, and when I was working for the newspaper Harvey, who had once been a column columnist for The Sentinel, there was nobody at the newspaper who still talked to him after Harvey took his column out of The Sentinel and went to the Bay Area reporter with it. So there was just like, no. So [01:07:30] when I started, it was interesting because my boss, the Bill Beard, the publisher of the Sentinel, was saying, It's good that we have someone on staff who's talking to Harvey because I don't agree with him. But he's important, and we need to be talking with him. So it's good that you've reestablished that communication. Um, I I'd say probably I. Wayne Friday wrote a political [01:08:00] column for the Bay Area reporter and Wayne Friday was inside Harvey's inner circle. And so he was sort of the journalist. He was the insider who wrote a political column on the outside. I was a little bit too much the journalist to be on the inner circle, but I knew so many of the people in it. I was probably the journalist who was closest to the inner circle. So I was the journalist on the [01:08:30] outside who had the the ties in as so that I mean, because you could say, Well, Wayne Friday was both an insider and a journalist, but he wrote that that one column and it was basically it was an opinion and items and column, and I was doing, uh, a more, uh, conventional, you know, trying to be the, you know, canons of journalism type, type of journalist. But I'd say of of the people who were journalists, I probably was one of the closest to Harvey, although [01:09:00] not as close as the friends, because ultimately I was a journalist. So you politicians only gonna trust a journalist so far, you don't know the secret plans because they got to be kept secret. You don't know some of the insider stuff and and so forth. So, um, you know, lots of lots of, uh, one on one and, you know, like, long car rides. Actually, I remember the last long, long conversation I had with Harvey was in Jan. [01:09:30] In June of 1978. He was supervisor. It was a year after the Hillsborough murder that I referred to before we both attended a nu-. A plaque was unveiled to him. He was a He was a gardener in a city park, and they were unveiling a plaque on the first anniversary of his death out there. And Harvey was there. I was there, covering it. Um, the Bay Times was between. It was in its between [01:10:00] issues number one and two, or between two and three. And, um, Harvey had some feedback on what he thought was good in the paper and what was bad. And, um, he said, Oh, I'm going to a concerned Republicans for individual rights, which became the Log Cabin Republican Club. I'm going to AC RCRIR meeting downtown. Uh, I can drive you back to Castro as we were driving. He said, you know, you wanna come to this meeting with me. It wasn't anything I was likely to [01:10:30] cover. He said you should You should know these people. Even if you don't agree with them, You should, you know, find out what they're all about and everything. But we had a long It was a half an hour car ride and talked about the newspaper politics. This that the other thing, just he and I completely off the record, by definition or by specific agreement. And that's, you know. So, um yeah, but But in terms of the audio, the audio, the long audio recording with Harvey Milk, that's [01:11:00] there is, um, by Paul Avery, I think who was a straight journalist from Sacramento who worked for for at the time. And then there are some other bits and pieces that came from Larry Bens. Uh, but other than his appearances, I would go out and tape events rather than just do studio interviews. [01:11:30] I would go out and tape events a little bit before the studio moved to Oakland once it moved to Oakland. I did a lot more because with a six o'clock in the morning time slot and the studio across the bay, it was sometimes hard to get people to go to the studio for studio interviews. So I started doing many more field interviews and event taping. Uh, also, as the show developed an audience book, publicists heard about it. So it became [01:12:00] a regular stop for queer novelists to do a long interview. And, uh, I surprised a lot of them by having read the books instead of just having read the Read the material, although actually one of the things I used to do. I always used to hate it when I listened to interviews and even unintentionally, where the interviewer would tip off some secret from late in the book. Uh, [01:12:30] not by saying what happens, but just from tone of it. So I if if we were a novel like that and and often they were, I would sometimes deliberately stop one or two chapters from the end so that I wasn't hyper informed relative to the listener of the show, and I would let the author? No, that this is based. I haven't completed the book because [01:13:00] I don't want to ruin anything for so also in your answer, II. I tell him this ahead of time. You know, off air that I've read all of the last two chapters. We don't want to blow it for any of the people who are listening. So, um, other highlights. Let's see. II. I actually I got a one on one interview with John Anderson when he was an independent, running for president in 1980. Uh, and he was one of the first national first presidential candidates [01:13:30] to actively solicit the LGBT vote and deal with not just with radio, but deal with with our newspapers and so forth. And I had a 15 minute one on one with him. He didn't come to the studio. It was in a a hotel hotel room, you know, but sitting at a at a table with a tape recorder on and one on one and and even his advanced people were like off at the edge of the room. I would I would have expected more hovering these days. Of course, you'd get [01:14:00] lots of it and hand signals and people holding up cards and whatever. Um, during the 1979 mayor's race in San Francisco, this was the mayor's race came in November of 1979 6 months after the white Knight riots. The OK Harvey Mook was assassinated in November of 78 when the killer, Dan White, got off on a very lenient manslaughter charge that led to only five years in jail. There was [01:14:30] a riot in San Francisco. Six months after that was the mayoral election where we were going to elect a mayor for the next four years. There were already two main candidates emerging Quentin Copp and Dianne Feinstein, who was the acting mayor who got elected by the board to fill out Mayor Mosconi. Remaining term Mayor Mosconi being the mayor who got shot the same day as Harvey Mill. Like 10 minutes before or something, and it looked like it was going [01:15:00] to be. And neither one of them, Dianne Feinstein, had had some friendliness towards the LGBT community but was distancing herself for I don't know, to widen her base or I don't know exactly what and, uh, David Scott, who was in city politics, gay Realtor. Uh, he was on the He was chair of the Board of Permanent Appeals, deliberately decided [01:15:30] to run in that election. And there are There are a few other candidates besides the two I mentioned in order to force a, um, a runoff. That is, if no candidate gets an absolute majority, there's a runoff between the top two candidates and that he wound up with about 10% of the vote. It forced the runoff. There were the only two candidates left. There's this huge chunk of votes that they both needed. [01:16:00] So they both needed to campaign in the LGBT community, and I did half hour interviews with both of them. Quentin Cop came to the studio. Dianne Feinstein was a little bit busy, so I went to her office and did it in the mayor's office. The mayor's office is this gorgeous oak panelled 1910 Civic. Uh, it's It's very with the with Franklin D. Roosevelt's [01:16:30] desk is the mayor's desk, and it's really impressive. And she, you know, the mayor. Mayors of San Francisco have learned how to use physical office as a anyway, so I remember doing the interview there, Uh, and so those two interviews were half hour ones, which we actively promoted in my newspaper column got actively promoted on case. And, uh, political columnists wrote about the [01:17:00] fact that either that it was about to happen or took clips from it after the fact that it had happened. Um, because it was a It was a key event of, like, each half hour, one on one interviews with both of them. So, yeah, I'd say those are the political memorable ones, at least this far out. And that whole sequence I'm just thinking, going back to To Harvey Milk that whole sequence of his assassination, the case, the riots. You've caught [01:17:30] some amazing actuality. Some location of the riots, for instance. Um, yeah, I was at City Hall and I was I was at City Hall on the day of the assassinations. About a half an hour later. I did not know that they had happened. Uh, and I was doing something else, and I wasn't even carrying audio equipment. Um, because why was I not carrying audio equipment? Oh, because I've been pitching [01:18:00] an article at New West magazine that morning, and then I made another stop and then I went to City Hall and there was a all of these hub hub outside which I thought was just a demonstration either in favour of Dan White or against Dan White. I got after I heard I actually heard the news from a TV reporter who was at the back of his van doing a stand up of what had just happened that Mayor, Mayor Mosconi and Harvey Milk had both been shot [01:18:30] and killed. And I rushed into City Hall. Uh, I got there. Wait a minute. I did have my audio equipment because I remember interviewing people unless I went home and got it. No, I was I did have my audio equipment because it was gonna be a Board of Supervisors meeting that afternoon, and I usually plugged in. But anyway, by the time I got there, I ran into City Hall. I phoned the radio station. I said him at City [01:19:00] Hall. They said, Larry Bens is on his way. Uh, get what you can get. And I was taping stuff during the afternoon and everybody put their tape in and, you know, brought the tape in. It wasn't one of those, like, I mean, you could set up phone lines and stuff, but it was really the days of you brought your tape to the station and stuff got edited together. Um, Ben Sky's Bens covered the riot [01:19:30] much better than I did, because when the riot occurred, I was again dealing with print. That afternoon I was over in Berkeley. I had just turned in an article to the Berkeley barb, explaining why if there were a lenient verdict, there was a likelihood of a riot because the verdict hadn't happened yet. And while I was in the office, the news came that the verdict had come through and that it was for manslaughter. [01:20:00] And so the barb staff also rushed into the city to cover it. But I So I was. I was there without any audio. Uh, Sky was there with audio, and it was his audio that I cut into. Now, Now you've got to remember that the fall of 78 is the period during which the gay life was not on. [01:20:30] It went off, and it was a June 78 was the end was often It started again in January. So by the time January started by by the time the assassination was old news. But when the riots happened in May, uh, I did a half an hour special show called Black Night, White Knight, Black Dish or the ultimate last fag joke. And the reason for that is one of the people [01:21:00] who worked at Case and a wonderful journalist called Skop used to do a show called The Ultimate Last News Show, which involved lot of lot of actualities, natural sound, wild sound, um, music and rock and roll music all mixed in in this sort of very idiosyncratic documentary style called the Ultimate Last New Show. So mine was the ultimate last fag joke. And using using [01:21:30] scooper's style of mixing in actualities and narration, rock and roll music, uh, multiple tracking all sorts of much more produced than we ordinarily would do. Um, and White Knight was the name of the riot because of Dan White, uh, black dish, as in black as in a black humour, you know, really not black as an African American but black, as in [01:22:00] noir, um, and put together what was about a 25 minute piece on that that pretty much we ran, we ran it every year on the anniversary of the riot. And, uh, the interesting thing about that here's a little back story. A friend of mine who is the Terence O'Flaherty, who is the TV critic at The San Francisco Chronicle At the time, Terrence thought it was good enough that it should be submitted [01:22:30] for a DuPont Award, which is the National Broadcast Awards, Um, which was significant because he was on the DuPont jury. He probably would have had to recuse himself, but he had a reading of. This is the sort of thing that they might like, or you should at least submit it. The station director. I did all of the work to get the nomination, and the station director didn't want to send it on to nominate it. Supposedly, it never got done [01:23:00] by just getting lost in the shuffle. But I think it was a political inaction on his part. Who was a station director who was not very comfortable with LGBT people or issues at the time, not the programme director, but the the station director and the same one who actually once over recorded one of my shows before it got on the air. So, anyways, I don't know if that [01:23:30] Yeah, in terms of wild sound and the riots, That's one of the things that you you've mentioned a number of times is is the recording equipment you you took out and, um, earlier you showed me literally. It's a suitcase of of material. Did you have to carry that suitcase with you when you went into recordings? Um, if I would carry it, for instance, if I were going to tape, uh, a banquet programme or an awards programme or, uh, [01:24:00] hearings at City Hall or the SB to clubs, Uh, meeting and having interesting speakers because I never knew because they'd be in different halls and all that, and it would give me a A big variety of of, uh, things to connect of wires and cables that I could connect with no matter what their setup was. If I were going to City Hall, uh, I eventually I would only [01:24:30] carry the microphone, the recorder and two cables, one for the preferred plug-in part ports and and one just in case. Those are all full, a way I could piggyback off of one of the other ones. So if I knew the situation. If I knew the electronics where I was going and was gonna go into a moult board I I only had to take what I needed. But if I didn't know, I'd take everything so [01:25:00] But I didn't. It wasn't as if I was like walking around the city looking for ordinary audio with something that big, because, you know, it weighs a few pounds and and all that, But yeah, that that that case went quite a few places. It's, uh Well, it was a small suitcase. One of the other areas that that we haven't touched on is the whole, um, AIDS epidemic. And I was really kind of blown away and also touched [01:25:30] by, um, the audio interviews you did with with Bobby and and some of the physicians at the time. Can you describe what it was like actually, at the time, discovering, you know, with the rest, obviously with the rest of the community. But actually, you know, paint a picture for me of of kind of discovering what this thing was and and and and what it was doing to the community. Well, at the point of the Bobby Campbell interview It hadn't. [01:26:00] It hadn't done its worst yet. Um, Bobby Campbell was a friend from the Butterfly Brigade, which was a an anti violent street patrol. And, um, he called me in the November of 81. I had just resumed editorship of the Sentinel, and, uh, and he told me that he had Capac sarcoma. AIDS wasn't named for a whole another year yet. Um, and after, you know, [01:26:30] expressing my regret and support and commiserating for him. And we went on for a long time, and he told me the whole story of how he had come to discover this. I said, would you be interested in writing anything for the newspaper? And he said, I thought you weren't gonna ask. It took you so long. That's why he had called me. I just felt it was so personal. But anyway, so he started a column in the newspaper, which was initially called Gay Cancer Journal, because there was no name for it yet. And, uh, that was in the fall [01:27:00] of 1981 and I decided, uh, in late November that I wanted to do a whole lot to to cover it and also cover other gay health issues. And so in December, I taped a show that appeared in January of 1982 half of which was Bobby Campbell telling his personal story, and the other half of which were [01:27:30] two physicians, uh, Marcus Conant, who was Bobby's immediate personal physician and who could not appear with him in an audio interview or any interview at the time because of patient physician confidentiality where they were going to be discussing this. I mean, they could have gone and discussed politics in the same interview, but they couldn't be. Bobby was gonna be discussing his case. He was going to be discussing a disease that Bobby had. So and [01:28:00] and also Paul Volberding, uh, who was doing some of the the initial research. Conant was, uh, an epidemiologist. And since the first presenting symptoms were skin lesions, he was one of the early experts Uh, Volberding, Uh, field was, uh did I say he was an epidemiologist? I meant to say he was a dermatologist. Conan Volberding was an epidemiologist and virologist. Um and, [01:28:30] um, the interesting thing is they had phoned me because they were having trouble getting word out. The gay media was a little bit reluctant because the owners were pub were the publishers. And they thought, This is not gonna be good for the community. So there's a little bit of the plot of IBS, the an enemy of the people where the doctor who knows that the well is contaminated [01:29:00] is shushed up by the people in the town who don't want to lose the resort business. That's a very bad gloss of an enemy of the people, but it sort of works. Um, and they they both approached me. And so that those two who eventually was hard to get interviews with by two years later, let alone exclusive interviews where they came to the studio and talked for half an hour. Um, it was during that interview [01:29:30] that Conant said, We don't know. It's behaving like a virus, which is very bad news, because up until then everyone was hoping maybe it was a bad batch of poppers. Maybe it was a bad batch of something else. They were hoping that it was a toxin rather than a poison, or rather, that it was a toxin or poison rather than a contagion. Because if we're a contagion We didn't even know that it was gonna be a contagion that had an extremely [01:30:00] long latency period and just how bad it was gonna be. But it also meant that a lot of people were already infected. Um, but during that interview, he said that we don't it it the the pattern of transmission looks like a virus, and we don't know what virus it is. And at the time, the main suspect was still CMV, which turned out just to be an opportunistic infection, he said. But [01:30:30] we do know that if it's a virus, that a condom will stop it because a condom will hold water. And a water molecule is much smaller than the smallest known viruses. So even if it's not CMV, which is a big mother of a virus, why it's called mega virus cytomegalovirus, it will hold it. So we're saying that it would be a really good thing for [01:31:00] people to start using condoms, and that appeared on Case San in January of 82 and I ran it in my newspaper column, um and is as near as I know, one of the first in the media things of people saying start using condom guys. Um, but it was It was I mean, the middle of the eighties, 82 through 82 [01:31:30] all the way through 92 in fact, were just dreary because it just got worse and worse and worse. And people were going to two or three memorials in a week of people who had died. And you were still hearing about people who were coming down with the disease, who'd been infected way before, um, or before anybody knew anything about it. And also, as we learned later, people were not as compliant with the safe sex guidelines, sometimes because [01:32:00] they were too vague. Sometimes even if they weren't too vague. People just under the influence of lust couldn't completely comply all the time. And also, um, condoms do sometimes break. I mean, so there are all sorts of there can be all sorts of, uh, treatment failures in in prevention, prevention failures. But it was it was a very dreary time. Um, I once, [01:32:30] once, they said it looked like a virus, and they thought that the transmission period was six months was bad enough. But then when they started, I sort of had I had studied, uh, population as a sociologist had studied, uh, done work on populations and knew a little bit about epidemiology. Not professionally, but, um, I had a pretty good sense of how terrible it was gonna be statistically, [01:33:00] not how terrible it was gonna be emotionally, though. Um, in the early eighties, I was chided by friends who thought I was being alarmist when some of them were sick and nearing death. One of them told me that he thought that, uh, I had raised the alarm too loudly, which struck me as slightly unusual. Excuse me, sir. There's gonna be there's a fire. You should leave, You know, I mean, without panicking people, an alarm should be an alarm. [01:33:30] Um, so, yeah, I don't know. It's like it was bad. And in 92 my partner died in 92. He had no symptoms. Well, actually, the first he had been infected by a boyfriend from the summer before. He met me and then had some vague symptoms the next year that disappeared. And then there were no virus tests yet the virus hadn't been isolated [01:34:00] and then 10 years later, got sick and died in five months, Uh, so that and I was negative. And when the test came and I discovered I was negative, I thought that's really unusual because I'd certainly taken enough risks even in the pre safe sex days, even though I became one of the early safe sex advocates and and the and the radio show pushed on that. In fact, when it even when it wasn't the subject, it was often [01:34:30] the subject of public service announcements at the end of the show reminding people and telling people where they could get the information. What impact did it have on Bobby being so public, uh, and and kind of coming out on air like that? Well, Bobby was completely out in everyday life, and, um, just slightly flamboyant [01:35:00] enough that most people who knew him would know it. And he was out on the job. He was a nurse, Um, and, um, he had the newspaper column, which he was writing regularly, which I edited, but pretty much let him write what he wanted to write about. We had discussions. I made suggestions of topics, but he got to decide what he was going to say about them. Um, the radio show made his voice well known. Then he [01:35:30] was on the cover of Newsweek with, uh, the I have gay cancer. Uh, he called himself the AIDS poster boy. Um, the part of him that was a nurse, it sort of combined his nurse and his gay politics into. He knew from the beginning that this potentially could kill him. And he lasted longer than he thought he was going to. Um, But it combined [01:36:00] the gay politics and the nursing in this big public education campaign in which, Yeah, I think to some extent, being the AIDS poster boy gave him some secondary compensation. Like, you know, if you're a kid and that's the term that psychologists learn, if you're a kid and you're sick, you're sick. But you get all this extra attention from Mom and you maybe even get to stay home from school. So there's some secondary compensation there. Um, which, [01:36:30] you know, I don't think he minded having that attention. He he liked it a lot, but, um, it was deserved because he was, you know, he was He was out there and taken some risks with being that public about it. Uh, but it. It served a valid public health communications political standpoint because he was not only getting out the information to people and also trying to remove the [01:37:00] the stigma and the shame. But it was also politically important in getting the political support for there to be, uh, programmes and social support and research and non stigmatisation, including non stigmatisation by insurance companies. So So it was. He essentially worked politically at what became literally the fight of his life for the last, uh, almost four years, I think. [01:37:30] And then one of the things I covered there was a big public memorial in Castro Street. And we covered that, too, because I thought that was important. And so now, all these years later, when decades, in fact. Decades later. Yes, Um, what are your reflections on on those radio days? Radio days and those voices? Um, I don't listen to them that often, but I did a bunch last year when? [01:38:00] When the when it went on onto the onto, uh when it got digitised and is on the historical society thing. Um, I'm I I'm mostly amazed by how much explaining was necessary, and I probably delved it I probably not delved into it. I probably indulged in that in a little just because in thinking about it gotten back into that mindset because, [01:38:30] um, San Francisco wasn't rejecting, but it still needed a lot of education about how we were all part of the same community together and so forth. So that so There was a lot of explaining and trying to create equivalences and, um, an underlying subtext of like, not advocacy, [01:39:00] except for the principle of no double standards that this is just the same as it would be, Um, and, um, and in fact, actually, some of the very early shows we did were on domestic partner rights and domestic partner ordinances, which is another thing that that I'm also amazed by how far we've come in that, you know, a couple of years ago when I got laid off [01:39:30] from a job and I was 58 or 59 I've forgotten something like that and, uh, had a talk with a career counsellor because it was just the whole company was shutting down. So we all got to talk to career counsellors. And I said, You know, in this town, I'm more concerned about age discrimination than anti gay discrimination. You know, I said, besides, if I If I put my resume in the closet, half my experience goes away. If I, you know, it [01:40:00] just looks like all of that's not gonna be there. And I want it to be there. Um, but on the other hand, I'm worried about age discrimination, and I think, uh so that things have moved along much. In a way, it's both much further than I thought they might have so fast, although the 30 years seems incredibly short in retrospect. But on the other hand, there's still, you know, you get outside of San Francisco or get outside San Francisco County, [01:40:30] the the centre of the Bay Area, you know, San Francisco Marin, uh, San Mateo, Santa Clara, Silicon Valley, the East Bay. You get outside of that and cross the hills. And, uh, there's still a lot of the old, uh, homophobia. And even if it's hidden, even if there's legal protections, kids are still bullied in schools. Uh, people still getting beaten up, probably [01:41:00] people are denied promotions. Uh, LGBT couple relationships not being given full the full honour or credit that they that they would to a marriage in the workplace. Um, so you know, the work's not done, but, you know, it was there, and I was you know, it it was sort of fun to be a media pioneer. I mean, I was also a media pioneer because when I was working [01:41:30] in the mainstream media, um, well, starting at case N, Actually, it's interesting because a case N even though in 1978 or nine. Somewhere long around there. So probably in 79. There was a Valentine's Party. And even though there were out people there were, there were there was gay DJ S that people didn't know were gay. There were gay DJ. [01:42:00] The people sort of knew it was gay. The people Larry Lee didn't hide it at work but had never actually come out on air or anything like that. But the station had a show called The Gay Life. So there was not, you know, and and it was a real rock and roll. It was real hip to have gay friends and all that, but I took a date to the company's Valentine's Day party and discovered that I was the [01:42:30] first of all, of the gay employees there to take a same sex date to a company party, even a Valentine's Day party, although that was sort of the perfect one to integrate it. That fall, I took the same guy to the Christmas dinner, which is very formal, and that was the one that made waves not negative waves. But, like people, five or six other gay employees said, [01:43:00] I just never done that before. But now you know. And so the next year everybody who was out at the station had a date at the Christmas party instead of coming alone or inviting, you know, the beard to to cover things up or whatever. So, um, so I was a pioneer there, and then at KRON, I was explicitly hired because of my knowledge of gay politics [01:43:30] and news, and I had done some consulting work for them. Uh, RN STV station. Um, and they were trying to They they wanted to have roots in all of the communities, Uh, even so, and even though there was so even though they were doing outreach to make sure that they were covering this because they wanted to be a better news station. Not for, you know, not political correctness for journalistic. Excellent. Um, no one there had yet [01:44:00] taken, Even though they're out gay employees. No one there had yet started taking same sex dates to company parties. And I started that there, too. And it's just sort of like I mean, to me, It's one of the the measures of how we integrated a workplace is, is what's the most formal social event of the year at your company. And can you take a date of the same sex? If not, [01:44:30] then the place is not integrated yet. I mean, because it's one thing like, Oh, yeah, well, we hang out or, you know, they know I'm gay. They know my partner. He comes and picks me up at the office so they know who he is. Um, I never although it KON because when I started it, I never actually replaced it. I had a picture of my partner, but it was because it it was a group picture of a bunch of us, including him, which I decided I'd start with that and I I wound up keeping [01:45:00] it there. So, uh, that's another thing is like, Can you have the picture on the The picture on the desk is another. The picture on the desk, the company party. Um, but I had already worked at a at a radio news service before I went to, and I worked at a radio news service where the boss was getting married and he invited us as a couple to the thing. So that's a that one. That was a much smaller companies you know, much easier [01:45:30] to deal with. So yeah, I mean, in integrating and And also when I started at and some one of the, uh, a graphics production designer came over and he introduced himself and he said, You know, I thought I was out at this station until, like, send out the welcoming letter that welcoming to the staff, which was based on my resume, and they said, That's you know, because it was just all you know, I had worked in this this, uh, the radio, the gay life radio show and [01:46:00] the editor of the Sentinel And this that the other thing. And he said you just made it a lot easier for much of the rest of us, but so um So there's the workplace issues as well as the fair coverage issues, and I was also hasn't even come up. But, uh, NLGJ a the coffee cups National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association. I was a founding member, meaning I joined in the first year, uh, back. [01:46:30] You know, back when we had the meetings were held around the kitchen table and it was national by phone in terms of Yeah. So, um yeah, it's been I've enjoyed doing it. And, um, I mean, to some extent, was there a price for pioneering? If I'd been in the closet, could I have gotten if I'd been in the closet at that point? Could I have gotten other jobs and moved along farther? And would I have more money in my retirement [01:47:00] accounts? Probably, yes. Would I have been as happy doing it along the way? Probably not. I would definitely would have been unhappy. I mean, there was a point at which I was 27 when I came out of the closet, and it was a question of coming out of the closet to myself, and then I decided I'm not gonna no energy in hiding this anymore. it is not worth it. You know, I've There's been eight years that I should have been out at least that I should [01:47:30] have been out of the closet, you know? And I'm not gonna be in the closet. In my social life, I'm not gonna be in the closet at work. So, uh, it was a personal choice, and I'm glad I made it.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089271
TITLE: Rick Gerharter
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Rick Gerharter
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; Act Up; Anita Bryant; Bay Area Reporter; Candlelight March; Castro District; Dianne Feinstein; Fred Phelps; HIV / AIDS; Harvey Milk; Ian McKellen; NAMES Project; Nelson Mandela; Pride; Pride parade; Proposition 8; Rick Gerharter; San Francisco; United States of America; activism; arts; coming out; community; demonstrations; human rights; marriage; media; photo journalism; photography; police; politics; religion; social; travel; violence; visual arts; zaps
DATE: 18 June 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: San Francisco, San Francisco, United States of America
CONTEXT: In this podcast Rick talks about his photo-journalism career, including the early years of photographing AIDS activism in San Francisco.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I grew up on a farm. A small farm in South Dakota. I'm 60 years old. Um, I lived there. It was right on the outskirts of a small town of 25,000 people. Uh, I grew up there until I graduated from high school and then went to college in Saint Paul, Minnesota, and lived in Minnesota for seven years. And then, in 1977 moved to San Francisco. Uh, for a number of reasons, I thought it'd be easier to come out. I had been here visiting and really liked it. [00:00:30] I knew there were a lot of gay people here. I had a place to stay with some family friends, so I came not necessarily with the intention of staying, but within two weeks I had a job. So then I ended up staying and I'm still here. What was the job? I was a A in a graphic shop. That was really my skill was graphic design type setting. I did forms design. I did a real variety of graphic related jobs. And when did that [00:01:00] move into photography? In 84 and 85 a friend and I had travelled around South America for a year, and I had always sort of taken snapshots and things like that, but not very seriously at all. Nor had a serious camera, nor really had anyone in my family that, you know, that that I was learning from. And that trip in South America changed my life in a number of ways, one of which, I it prompted me to learn photography and take that up as a profession that the the travelling was just [00:01:30] so fantastic. And I just enjoyed doing it and realised the only way I could really do it uh uh, for an extensive period of time was to somehow make money from doing it. Um, So I came back here to San Francisco in 85 and 86 went to City College here in San Francisco, their photography department, and primarily learned how to develop black and white film. Um, I realised pretty early on, I'm sure because of my graphic experience [00:02:00] that visually I could compose a picture pretty well and think the more graphic elements of photography, I pretty much had already, um, somewhat without realising it. But, you know, once I was with other students who were having problems with that I realised. Oh yeah, that's not really something that that that I mean, it's always a challenge to compose a photograph, but I had a lot there already, just from my visual experience previous. So I went to school for about a year and a half, learned how to do photography and then [00:02:30] started selling photographs. I was type sitting at the time, um, and started selling photographs and had the good fortune of starting this right At the time that the AIDS epidemic was, I don't know about peaking, but it was certainly at a high boil and the act up there was a lot of activism. There was a lot of things to photograph at that time, and also the there was an in some cases international interest [00:03:00] in this and often national interest. So the market to sell these photographs was was substantial, and I've supported myself with photography, you know, since that time. So for a freelancer, that's essential. I'm wondering pre AIDS era. Could you paint a picture for me of what San Francisco was like for a newly openly gay man that came well, my story is probably different than At least that's probably what the what's [00:03:30] been talked about most. I came and it was sort of awkward. I came out very slowly. It was rather awkward. I I was not very sexually active. I did not participate in the bathhouse scene. Um, I was not really a bar goer, so that which I think a lot of people associate with that time wasn't really a big part of my life. And be before I became a photographer in the gay community, I really wasn't that involved with the community. I had gay friends and all of that, but [00:04:00] was not active in anything really did my my work. And that was that, Um, so for me, it was, Well, first off, it's an incredible city in many ways beyond the fact that there were so many gay people here, I think there's fewer now. It's definitely much less a gay city now than it was in the late seventies. And, um um, the early eighties, absolutely partially because of AIDS and greatly because of the economic situation. So it it, you know, for the first time there was a neighbourhood, there was a section [00:04:30] of a city that wasn't that was gay. It was defined as a gay neighbourhood, not a bohemian neighbourhood or an artistic neighbourhood. And so there was an incredible amount of excitement and opportunity. Um, part of it, I think, because there was also a lot of resistance. It was Anita, Brian. And, you know, it was the laws weren't there. There was in San Francisco also, including, you know, at the time she was mayor now Senator Dianne Feinstein, she was not, and never has been that supportive of [00:05:00] she'd never been in a gay parade, for example, Veto domestic partnership Bill in in the early I forget which year. But in that period, So even in San Francisco there was a great deal of resistance to equal rights and just the visibility of of gay people. So that added an element to of excitement and an element of of visibility that isn't here so much anymore. Because so many of those those victories have been won, I guess. And laws have been changed, [00:05:30] and and, uh, it's it's quite a different atmosphere in that sense. Um, it was much cheaper, so people had more time to be to be creative or I like to say people come here to San Francisco to be weird, which is a has been true from the very days of the Gold Rush in the 18 forties. And so it it was easier to do that at that time because you just didn't have to spend so much time earning money to pay rent. And [00:06:00] everything you know at the time was a quarter. Now it's $2 for a ride. So it it the fast pass for the month. The monthly pass was $15 and now it's like 70 or $80 just so that made a big difference, I think, and also attracting young people, young gay people to come to San Francisco again. Contrary to I think a lot of the myth Generally, gay people are not wealthy at all, and they tend to be in the lower socioeconomic levels, Uh, the majority of them So I i it it's [00:06:30] made a real difference in the gay scene here. And then the eighties came along and and aids suddenly rear its head. It did, um, at that time when we were in South America, there for 80 between 84 and 85 There's a real markable di, you know, noticeable difference before and after of what had happened. And again, my experience might be a bit different because I had those early years I lost no close friends whatsoever. [00:07:00] And even the the the people that I knew who died were sort of just kind of acquaintances. So for many, many years, it never really affected me very deeply and very closely because none of my close friends died. They, um many of them have been infected, and now some of them have died at this point in time. But in those early years, that wasn't the case, so But it did make a huge difference, of course, [00:07:30] in the neighbourhood and just the whole environment because there was so much death and at first it was very mysterious. And it was also seemingly as a consequence of a sexual liberation in a period of time, where for really the first time in, uh, who knows? But, you know, one of the the the only times in history where there's been an environment where gay sexuality has been so available and so so visible in a sense, too, [00:08:00] and so it it It was a huge contrast, and it was a huge change from this idea, that of San Francisco being a gay mecca, being a place that's a paradise for gay people, which, of course, was never true. But certainly after AIDS started to hit, it was much less true. Plus, many people died, of course, and these were people who added so much to the culture, and you know where the creative highlights. [00:08:30] So they added so much to what made San Francisco a special place for gay people and a special place for everyone because of all the gay people here and the influence that we have throughout the city and so many of those people died. So why do you say Gay maker not being true? There's always been resistance, I think, in Proposition A, you know, the same sex marriage bill of what is it two years now? I believe there was like 1/5 of the people in San Francisco voted for that, [00:09:00] so there's always been, you know, a substantial chunk of people in this city who don't think gay people should have equal rights, so that's always been there and and they have influenced In some extent, the Catholic Church has always been very homophobic in this city, and in fact the guy who's now the head of the doctrine of the faith, you know, like the the the real ideologue of the Vatican was the archbishop here lavada William Lavada. He was the archbishop. And so [00:09:30] in that time, it was one example. They were very influential with Feinstein videoing the domestic partners Bill. So the it it it I think it was a mecca in the sense that people could be very visible and you could live, uh, essentially among gay people within the neighbourhood. But even within the city, you would go and just do a normal daily transaction. And the odds that the person you were dealing with was was gay or lesbian was pretty high [00:10:00] in some cases, you know, so I i it In that sense, there was a really broad acceptance and broad opportunities for gay people to be open and be participate in all aspects of the city. When you went to City College in 1985 to study photography, was it photojournalism that you did? It was specifically photo. It was It was what I was. I've always been a newspaper junkie, and [00:10:30] so that's the area of photography I was interested in. I was not interested in, like tabletop product photography or or studio type photography. I was not. I was not interested in that. So why photojournalism? Well, but like I said, I always been in. I've always been interested in the news and politics, and that's, you know, things in life, I guess. And so it was just kind of a natural for for where I could combine that interest [00:11:00] with an artistic interest or like a creative interest that I've also had. I guess always that side of the brain in me is much more developed than whatever the other side is or the other side. I don't know which is which one's for math, right? And one's for creativity. So you began taking, uh, images in the mid eighties and and and selling them Yeah, 88 I think, was the first photograph I published was in 1988. I think [00:11:30] when Nancy Pelosi, our our representative who was speaker of the House, was her first campaign against Harry Britt, who was the supervisor who replaced Harvey Milk when he was assassinated. It was a very bitter contest. And, uh, that was my first. They were at a candidates forum. What are the main qualities when you're in something like a a meeting or something like that? So how how do you capture the action? What? What? What do you look for? Well, I mean, I and I do a lot [00:12:00] of that type of work where people are at a a panel or they're speaking And that and so you're just focusing on usually one individual, Um, because I'll take a photo of the whole panel, but it's just sort of a straight on shot. That's not very interesting. Some things I look for is gesture. When I'm focus on one person gesture, I certainly try to get the microphone out of the way if possible. I looked for a clean background, if possible, or a background that speaks to what they are like. [00:12:30] Sometimes a flag will work that way. Um, some other angles you can, you know, focus on one person say they're lined up on a table, but but one's a bit forward to the next. So there you can see, like several heads in a row. It doesn't happen very often, but that's always something to look for. Um, I often try to get two people. You know, when you're in that situation, the speaker next to the person that [00:13:00] I'm focusing on will also be in the photo and try to get them usually out of focus, hopefully out of focus, right? But try to get some interaction there. At least I'm looking at the speaker or some other hand gesture I. I work a lot, try to get pans and things a lot. I think they're interesting. Is that kind of sense of movement that some of it, Yeah, you know, it's hard taking photographs of people speaking because there's a lot of times when they look really weird. So III. I think it's quite difficult to get a good photograph of a of a person speaking, [00:13:30] So you have to take with digital. You can just snap away and there's not such a plus, you know when you have something, whereas with film, of course you didn't know when you had something or not when you walked away from the assignment, So can you take me through some of the uh, the the the many kind of, um, actions or events that you did in the in the eighties. What what were some of the standouts? Well, I, I focused a lot more on the activism and the street things. I have relatively few photos of the caregiving part of it or the medical part. [00:14:00] I have some, but not that many. Mostly it was the street activism and some of the different organisations that that came up that were created in that time say, with the quilt, for example, which is a as an activism. So I did a lot of street things. Demonstrations, blockades, you know, sit ins, zaps. I was tuned into zaps quite frequently, so I would be able to be there to take [00:14:30] photographs. What A is when you just go, like, say, in an office? Um, here's a zap. And it was at the immigration service. This would have been like in about 1990 I think. Or 1991 people just walked into the office here in San Francisco and just occupied it. Just sat down, you know, sat behind desks. Whatever they would do, that was a zap or say a person is speaking, that is, you know, [00:15:00] like saying stupid things in some way people would go into the the speech. You know, normally it's just an audience. And then, during a speech, jump up and scream or or do something like that, interrupt the speech in some way. So I was tuned and and I, I guess 11 thing also to speak to about the strength of the photography. And one thing I felt in school is that the strongest photos, particularly of journalistic type photos or documentary photos, are [00:15:30] people who are from photographers who have some involvement with the community that they're photographing. And fortunately like as I said, you know, that was happening when I was just starting to be a photographer. So I knew a lot of these people that were involved in these demonstrations and that were being arrested and that were were planning them so they would tip me off. Um, also another aspect of this. At the time, I was and continued to work regularly with the Bay Area Reporter, which is the weekly gay paper here in San Francisco. And so [00:16:00] that was a steady outlet for for that work at that time. So those kind of demonstrations where they are so fluid, how do you position yourself to to capture the right moments? How? Well, I guess the first thing you do is you observe. You really try to watch and see what's going on and try to predict as well as you can, where things are going. And as I said, you know, to to know what they're planning to do is really helpful. Of course, [00:16:30] Um, there's other times where you can. I remember demonstrations where just by the presence of the police and the quality like the numbers or what was there, there was a different I would expect a different reaction from the police I. I would expect a different sort of the atmosphere and tenor to the to the demonstration or the march, Um, because I think the police were very provocative. In most cases, I believe the police are the provocative agents and certainly [00:17:00] in the act up demonstrations when there was not a black block like there is now kind of an anarchist block and so many demonstrations that are really out to to bust windows and things like that that really wasn't true. So much of act up and so so much of the action was and and the violence that I saw was provoked by police over in this period of time. What would they do? Beat people up, hit people, push people back, use jab, take their night sticks and jab people, um, arrest people just on the spot [00:17:30] to get them off the scene. Things like that. Observing, I think is the is is the main thing to see and then try to position yourself in such a way. Having a right lens helps Having a wide angle lens helps when you're in a really tight situation. That's confrontational. Um, I tended to be kind of cautious because even with press credentials, they oftentimes didn't care, and I didn't really want to get hit. I got hit once, um, by the California Highway Patrol at a demonstration [00:18:00] at a drug boroughs welcome, which made the first really widely available AIDS drug a ZT. But it was outrageously priced and blah blah blah. So anyway, there were demonstrations focused on on their building, and, uh, I got jabbed by a It was yeah, it was incredibly painful. They almost killed Huerta, an activist in the demonstration that was the San Francisco police. They almost killed her because of the damage they did by jabbing, taking their night stick and jabbing you like in the kidney area [00:18:30] and things like that. So I consequently was trying to be very cautious when there was a confrontational situation because I didn't want to get ahead. And so it's always a challenge. There's usually other photographers in your way, um, plus people, but you kind of just snap and and try to quickly compose and hope for the best. To some extent, it is, you know, for a big deal of photography. A big aspect of photography is luck, particularly when you're doing street [00:19:00] photography and unscripted photography a bit. A lot of it is a lot, Um, what else would I do in those situations? Just really try to keep my my my eyes and ears on what was going on. And, of course, sometimes it's impossible because the demonstrations are too large and you just it's you just can't do it. Um, I think I focused perhaps too much on signage, trying to get people with signs and and what they carry and that, um, like one aspect of a news photograph [00:19:30] is it needs to kind of convey what the essence of this issue is or what the story is, so that makes it more of a challenge. But it also puts some limitations on it, I think. And oftentimes the bare reporter will only use one photograph from a scene. So perhaps if they use more than one, you could have, like more of an action, sort of seen in a more contemplative individual or a group of individuals, [00:20:00] because there was a lot of sadness in these demonstrations because they were all AIDS related and they were motivated by people dying and people not having access to medicine and the government not caring. And Reagan not saying in the word for years until I don't know how many thousands of people died and just this sort of sense that you don't really care if we die or not. So there's a lot of anger having a press pass, like for the Bay Area reported. Did that help or hinder you? Oh, it definitely helped. Absolutely. Um, yes, because it gives [00:20:30] you credibility. It it it it doesn't allow you to go anywhere. Certainly because it it's issued by the police department so they can say no. You can't go there because and they can, you know, they can take your parents pass away, too. I assume I haven't never heard of it happening, but they did take our parking passes away, which were quite convenient at the time. But I guess that was a state issue. Uh, anyway, but no, it is It is very helpful. It is. It is gives you a sense of legitimacy. And there's also times, particularly [00:21:00] when say national political figures would come and that they you could not go into the press conference or whatever without a press credential and issued by by people. But generally by a law enforcement agency. These events are being photographed. I'm assuming on the film. Yes, it's mostly black and white, some colour, but it was mostly black and white film. Yeah, and [00:21:30] one of the aspects of film is you can't just take thousands of photos like digital. So how did you train yourself to just snap the moments you wanted? I? I, you know, position yourself in such a way that that you can kind of reframe the image, say, get a police line with a demonstration or or with, say, a line of people sitting down with a line of police officers. So, you [00:22:00] know, position yourself so you can get both of those aspects would be one way. And then if they start to arrest people, you know, you're you're there, that you can kind of at least have both a fuller picture of what the event is about or what the story is, what the news hook is of it. So that would be one way to try to manoeuvre and and try to. I try to compose before, um, otherwise it was just a lot of chance, I guess, and take, [00:22:30] you know, taking photos. Taking film is cheap, relatively to all the other effort to take the photo, so just snap away. How many frames would you take in a in a particular march? I don't think I've ever shot a huge amount, and particularly with digital, I hear these people. They go to these events and they shoot hundreds of photographs and, you know, imagine the editing process and I'll and they all come back with like 200 photographs, but I edit as I go with digitally. I do. I dump stuff all the time. Um, what I, you know, [00:23:00] at a demonstration, say, a regular kind of sit in that maybe lasted an hour to two hours. I probably would take 3 to 4 rolls, 36 exposures each around and they're not a huge amount. I don't think you know, I don't really know what other photographers take, but I was kind of judicious, Tried to be tried to be and still am with digital. I guess it's that that working out when is the moment to to take that? Yeah. [00:23:30] Yeah, it's I I'm not sure I'm real good at that. Actually, I feel like I've missed so many things, but I'm probably every photographer does. But I've caught things, too. So you just try to presen what's gonna happen, and sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. That's one of the things I tell myself. And another thing is, I tell myself everything doesn't need to be photographed. So to kind of, you know, when you miss a shot or when you don't have what what really would you think would be better. Some way to sort of [00:24:00] face the reality of photography. Did the protesters ever turn on you? No, that never really happened. You know, I knew a lot of them. Um, and I really try, You know, I feel I'm a journalist, so IIIIII I have a sense of neutrality. Certainly I work for a community based newspaper. So I think it's a bit different than a general newspaper that the paper and I have, you know, points of view that I want to express [00:24:30] in my photography. So no. So so consequently, you know, II I work quite closely with them at the same time, trying to keep a distance and, I think succeeded to a great extent. And I know some cops that have been around for a long time that that we chat and and, you know, have have a It's really an acquaintanceship, like a professional friend. Acquaintanceship it. It's certainly not a friendship, and we never socialise. But, you know, I'm in terms with them. So how [00:25:00] did you get involved in the Bay Area reporter? Well, I was type setting at the time, and I was wanting to earn my living by being a photographer. I was still in school, so I just started, you know, contacting publications for photography work. And would you be interested in this as a freelancer? I would take photographs and then try to sell them, you know, after the fact. And they just started giving me assignments. And then [00:25:30] on october 6th, 1989 there was an act up demonstration that led to, um quite a dramatic police sweep through the Castro. Um, and that then led to some incidences of police violence, which led to extensive court cases. And it was it was quite a big, um, event overall. And I got some really dramatic photos from that period or from that event, uh, because the cops [00:26:00] were just acting, you know, they were They're just, like, acting like storm troopers, and they trapped people and build buildings and things like that as they swept the street. And the editor of the B HR at the time was really impressed and just started to give me assignments. And then for one year, I was actually on staff at the paper, which was a very unusual for the paper. And it didn't really suit either of us. I don't think it certainly didn't suit me because I wanted to travel for more than, you know, two weeks a year. And [00:26:30] so after a year, and I wanted to go to, I think I went to Europe for like, six months. That was the end of that. But the paper has been incredible in continuing to use me. I'll come back from, you know, being gone for two or three weeks, and I'm an assignment the next day. So they have just been incredibly supportive of that kind of a schedule for me and I. I really appreciate it because I would not be happy doing one or just one or the other. I like doing both. So that's how it started. You know, I'm [00:27:00] I've just had good relationships with the various editors there over the years. Um, you know, I'm dependable and I. I meet my deadlines and I get my captions accurate and things like that which are essential to editors and takes a lot of worry away from them when they have a photographer who is like that. So I think that's been one reason why they've continued to work with me and I think I've taken a lot of nice photographs over the years, too, some of which have been published, some of which have not been published, some of which have been cropped, some of which [00:27:30] have not been cropped. But it's the nature of being a photographer, really, particularly in news. So not only at these demonstrations are you taking the photographs, but you're also having to get people's names and and caption the In some cases, Yeah, my rule of thumb is there's no more than five. If there's more than five, you don't really have to. But if people are lined up, yeah, and I'm probably not as conscientious about that as what others are but tend to get names. [00:28:00] So what kind of assignments would would the reporter be giving you? Well, you know it it It's kind of special in some ways, because being that gay people are so integrated into all aspects of this city, I photographed everything from sports to fashion shows to news conferences to, you know, murder scenes to been in the jail hospital scenes, not always for the BAR, but for some of the other, uh, other [00:28:30] other clients that I've had, too. But for the BAR, it was, you know, a lot of Yeah, break it down, I guess, would be a lot of news, news related things, certainly in a lot of various periods of time. But demonstrations that's really calmed down. But demonstrations, parades and marches and things like that, Um, performance, drag queens and different performance bands or or cabaret, things like that. So it was [00:29:00] a huge variety sports. I did quite a bit of sports at one time, which I don't like to do, and they don't really cover sports very as they did. So I would have to go like a softball game every Sunday, for example, when it was in softball season. And so I don't do that anymore. But those are some of the assignments over the years that I've had. And what about the type of equipment that you're using in the field? Well, I've always used icons. Not by choice, really. But when I went to buy my first serious camera at a camera exchange, [00:29:30] that's what they had. So I just stuck with icons, which I think these days more, um, news photographers use cannon actually than icon, so I just I basically carry one camera body, Um, sometimes two. And I'll carry three lenses at maximum. Sometimes I don't need my really long lens, so I won't carry that because it's quite heavy. But the focal range is from about 12 millimetres to 200. I believe around in there in three lenses, [00:30:00] and it took me a while to get that down to what I needed. You know, I did a bit of experimentation at the beginning, but this and a flash of a flash. Um, this simple, you know, relatively small, um, system works for me, and I'll carry two bodies sometimes, too. Um, certainly, when I travel, I'll carry it as a backup. And then on other things parades and stuff like that, I'll usually carry two bodies. We've talked [00:30:30] about some of the kind of, uh, confrontational demonstrations and events, but I guess something like a a pride parade. It's quite a different atmosphere, and it's quite a different way of capturing. Yeah, in some ways, you know, sort of the atmosphere is very different. The the thing one thing that's similar is the movement. There's a lot of movement in parades as there is in marches and demonstrations and activities like that. So you know, being able to work with that, there's some similarities there being able to walk backwards. For example. [00:31:00] There's some similarity these there, Um, but there again, there's there's spontaneity, for sure. But yet, you know, year after year, the parade is essentially the same. Um, there's not a huge variation, so it's kind of going out and visually recapturing things. Um, you know, there's always different people involved, and there's different floats and groups involved. But essentially, it's taking the photograph of the same thing year after year. And, you [00:31:30] know, try to get animated people along the route. Um, find some some contingents, get more of a response from the audience and others. So perhaps spend more time with them that to continue to walk with them longer to get more audience shots, you always look for colour. Look for things that that look for diversity frequent, you know, constantly looking for the mix of people to reflect the the mix of people who live here and who come here, you know. So there's that and [00:32:00] look for colour. Certainly look for objects to positions and just kind of some of the basic tenets of any photograph. Repetition is something I look for a lot, Um, try to capture the the size of the event, that that's kind of a challenge, because you can't get high very easily and try, you know, getting in buildings along the route and doesn't really work. You kind of have to be in the middle of the street to really see. And so that's been kind of a that's been that's been a difficult thing [00:32:30] to try to get some of the the norm of the event. Um, we have been on the top of City Hall, the Doman City Hall and Civic Centre, where the celebration is been up there a couple of times, was once with Ian McKellen, who was he was in New Zealand for quite a while. Wasn't he with Lord of the Rings, right? Anyway, he was the grand marshal that year, so went with him and some other people up to the top. That was very cool, that that was really very interesting, and you can get a just a great panoramic view of the thousands [00:33:00] of people that were in Civic centre at the celebration after the parade. Otherwise in the parade. Like I said, it's sort of the same thing year and year. It's kind of the same list I always want. Rainbow images, hunky men, families, diversity. Um, clever costumes, colourful costumes, those sorts of things. Look for people who have not been in the parade before, groups that [00:33:30] have not been in the parade before, groups that may come from somewhere else, other parts of the country or the world to be in this parade here in San Francisco. It must be quite hard, though, when you've got something year on year, and it could be so easy to fall into a kind of cliche of Oh, we'll just do this photo. We'll just do that photo. But the photos I've seen of yours don't do that. Well, thank you, because it's a real challenge. It is. It's a real challenge, and I think with digital it, it's an [00:34:00] an easier challenge. Digital. I think digital is maybe a better photographer, Um, because I can check my work as I go and see what's not working or what isn't. On the other hand, it can, uh, sometimes I feel like it makes me a lazier photographer because if I'm on an assignment, I basically need one image. And if I get that image, you know I can go home in a sense. But I don't usually. And I, I really try not to some, it depends how I feel, but I try not to stop [00:34:30] at that point, Um, but it is a challenge to be to be fresh. It is, and like, you know, how many drag queen performances have I photographed, and part of what you know makes it fun and makes it. It helps with. The challenge is that the creativity you know of gay people is just endless. So there's always something new and and different and funny or clever with drag to photograph. [00:35:00] Plus, it's a very animated, you know, when people are lip synching or when they're singing. But most of them lip sync, you know, it's sort of it's sort of exaggerated emotion, so those are fun to capture, and again I try to capture hands and gestures and things like that. But it is a challenge, absolutely, to try to be fresh. Yeah, it is. I'm wondering if you can talk for a moment on, um, just the interaction with [00:35:30] people when you're photographing people, Are you Are you going up to them saying, Can I take your photograph or are you doing it more of a a long distance type thing, but you do some of both, But most I go up because I need to get the names and and the implied permission If they're on the street and things like that. You don't really need a model release. Generally for some usage, as you do certainly commercially. But for journalistic and news editorial purposes, you generally don't need a model release. So but I, I do need their names. [00:36:00] And so I Yeah, I generally and you know, I. I have very, very little resistance because so much of the work that I do is within the community that knows the newspaper and I assume respects the newspaper because I hardly ever get rejected, if ever I'm not gonna have my photo in that paper. I don't know that that's ever happened, actually, and I've done this almost 25 years, 23 years, I guess something like that. And so that really helps I. I do. Plus, I always feel [00:36:30] a bit of a part of the community. I do usually. Not always, you know, like when Fred Phelps. I don't know who he is. He's an A Baptist nutcase. From where is he from? Wichita, Kansas, I think. And one of the things they do is they'll pick at funerals, of all things, because they were gay or something. They're just complete nut cases anyway. They come here, you know, They come here frequently, so I approached them. They generally won't give you your name, but I still have to approach them and stuff. [00:37:00] And that's always a bit uncomfortable for me. I don't like to be around those people. Although they've given me a couple of great photos, I feel that that's them. How do you think the parades have changed in the in the 23 or so years that you've been photographing them? I've been going to them since 78. Um, well, they, you know, they somewhat reflect the [00:37:30] movement. In general, for example, the name, uh, has changed. I think when I first was going, it was called the Gay Freedom Day Parade, and now it's just called pride, which doesn't even say gay, you know, it's completely neutralised and for me, very unsatisfactory. And I don't really like using the word pride. Does that imply that you're not proud the rest of the year? And I? I think it just it de Degas it so much and so I don't like using the word pride. I like, you know, it was gay liberation to [00:38:00] begin with and then became gay. Freedom Day. And I guess that's what I prefer. And I maybe think people Well, certainly gay people don't have freedom. No way. Not even in this country, you know, not even this city. But so that's one thing that has changed. Um, the parade has gotten much more commercial, extremely more commercial floats that are sponsored by you know, everybody, all these big, awful corporations like Wells Fargo and [00:38:30] such things like that. So there's a huge difference, and the celebration has gotten much bigger. There used to be a a time. This is sort of going back. Before I started to photograph it, there was one stage, so the celebration was focused on that stage. There was a sense that everybody was there for more or less similar purposes. Now there's something like 20 stages, so there's really a dispersal of the energy and kind of the the sense that this is a community that that is unified [00:39:00] for for for we all are different. And there's all these, you know, different. We are everywhere, certainly. But there's also this real strong unity for for who we are about being gay people. And I think that's lost has been lost in the celebration because of this dispersal. Perhaps there's no other way to do it because it's gotten so large. And one reason it's been able to get so large is because all of the commercial sponsorships, which is, you know, it's It's somewhat of a vicious circle in my mind. And secondly, people want to dance and party at this celebration. They don't just [00:39:30] want to listen to to speakers, so to have that combined from one stage is probably not possible at this point. But something's certainly been lost in the largeness of the parade. Um, in terms of who's in the parade has that. I mean, that's certainly changed. You know that there's more families, there's certainly and there's different issues that have come up that have been more prominent like, you know, marriage. Equality was never an issue 10 years ago that was very visible in the parade. [00:40:00] I wouldn't say it wasn't. It was completely invisible because there's been marriage activists for decades. But it wasn't at the the importance that it had been in in, you know, in years a few years ago, for example, so that immigration has been more of an issue. You know, certain political propositions that have been on ballots have highlighted have highlighted have been highlighted in in different parades over the years. Uh, at one point, for many years there were no barricades along the side, so there was much more of a sense [00:40:30] that, uh, that audiences could participate rather than Here's a parade marching by. And here's all these people watching it. There was much more sense that oh, you could join in, and that's more difficult now with these barricades. And then the final float was was a big, huge, like a sound truck, you know, sponsored by one of the discos. So everybody along the route would just follow that that that truck, that sound truck into Civic Centre for the celebration. It was on one day. Now it's on two [00:41:00] days. It's on Saturday and Sunday, which I've never quite figured out. Why the Saturdays have never been very well attended. They've tried different themes, and it never seems to have worked very well. Um, difference in the parades from the very beginning. Certainly there's a lot more politicians that participate, you know. Now it's essentially generally for politicians to be in it because of the numbers of gay people and how you know gay people vote and high percentages, [00:41:30] they do other changes. Well, there was a period of time when floats became less less prominent. And the parade committee, to their credit, have have made efforts to get funding and support for people to make floats. So there's there's been more. But again there's There's so much corporate stuff and I really don't like to take, you know, for the photograph, the parade for the parade, and they want photographs of all the corporate sponsors [00:42:00] naturally. But when I'm taking photographs for other purposes, I try to get that stuff out of it. I really do you know, beard labels and all that kind of stuff. I, I don't I don't want that part of my photos. Sometimes it's impossible. And sometimes it, you know, I shouldn't. You know, nothing is really a blanket statement, but sometimes it works. I have this one photo. It was at a 7-Eleven, you know, convenience store. And it was a big billboard on the side of the wall that said hot Dogs. [00:42:30] And there were these two guys who were dressed in leather and one was tall and thin, and the other guy was relatively short and had a really big gut. And he had his shirt off and I I forget if he had suspenders. But you know, his his belly was very prominent and I used the photo in an exhibit and the I didn't get their names at the time, but they knew I was taking the photograph because I took about three or four shots of this, and I really liked it using that advertising side. Although I didn't [00:43:00] have the logo and the photo was in a exhibit, and one of the guys who was in the photo called me and he said, Oh, you know, you have to take that down. You didn't give my permission and it was embarrassing to me, and da da da da da da and I, I guess, apologised to him and I don't I didn't take it down, you know, he's in a public space and they knew I was taking a photograph. So and that was before you. Well, now, you know, you sort of lost all privacy on the street when everybody's got a camera with photograph and that that that photographs old enough that it wasn't [00:43:30] the case then what about people taking part in the parade? Has that changed? Well, there's more families, I think in it, but probably not. You know, there's groups from churches and education groups and different activist groups, and the police have been in it for a long time, and the Fire Department and paramedics in the library. And maybe one thing that's not as prominent in the parade is just kind of these spontaneous groups [00:44:00] that would come together like the Barbie support group Barbie. You know, the Barbie dolls there would be these for many several years. There was the Barbie support group, and they weap appear now and then dress up like Barbie. There was also was a gaze against brunch. This was quite a few years ago, and I think that was a spontaneous group that just came together and and did the thing in the parade. Um, well, another thing. A change, I guess there's been. But again, these changes happened. Quite a few. [00:44:30] You know, we're talking like probably 2030 years ago, even 30 years ago. You know, the motorcycles, the dikes on bikes that lead it off. Well, then there became all the like scooters and mike on mic on bikes and bicyclists. And so that's increased, expanded from the dykes on bikes to all these other groups. That's one thing that has happened. Um, I feel there's always a need for more music in the parade. There's not that many bands and that too, you know, just [00:45:00] seeing the change in the the atmosphere and the change in the audience as the music goes by makes a big difference and just the kind of the the happiness and the energy and and the flavour of the crowd. That's one thing that hasn't changed for me even all the years I've done it. It's just kind of the general excitement of being out there. Do you find that when you're photographing you or you feel part of the event or are you kind of stepping back a wee bit and just an observer? [00:45:30] It depends like I pray. I sort of feel part of it at some because I walk up and down and and try to be out of people's way. Um, but generally I really try to be out of the event. I try to be as sort of inconspicuous and quiet and unobtrusive as I can, but probably to my own fault. I you know, I think a lot of strong photographs over time are people who have been very pushy and are are very obnoxious or in the way. And it's not really my style [00:46:00] so much so I tend to be a bit more, uh, trying to be a bit more unobtrusive. So on a personal level, how does that affect you when if you are observing events? Um, do do you feel that you're not being part of the community? Or does it have any? No. Because and I guess, one. No, no, I don't feel like that. And one reason is I just and it's been a very strong aspect of the motivation for the work that I do is that it's documenting a time and a place. [00:46:30] And so I feel like I'm you know, even though a lot of people don't realise it or don't appreciate the importance of photography historically and just how essential it is to capture this time and place. So I've I've always, you know, given the history of of gay history and how it does get destroyed, it's just been an important aspect of my work is to document it. So, no, I've never really felt that. I don't think that it's what I'm doing is valuable. [00:47:00] I mean, I guess. I, I question some of the things I take photographs of, of course, because it's such a variety, it's But in general, no, I don't question the value of it at all. I think it's really important and I want it preserved. I want it accessible so that people can use it, and it is now. It's one reason why my work is so organised. Very it's easy to find stuff so so people can use it, and at this point in time, you know, after so many years it starts to become valuable for its historical quality. [00:47:30] In addition to a good photograph, just the fact that the person is dead, for example, it makes that photograph quite different. You mentioned quite a lot earlier on about, um, photographing care, giving in the kind of AIDS early years of AIDS. And I'm wondering, how was that to photograph such personal moments? Well, I thought, in some ways, you know, I sort of like you have to sort of separate myself from [00:48:00] it, and it's interesting. You can get in there and you concentrate on the photography, and it's kind of like That's it. And you kind of you concentrate on what people are doing, but for me, at least, it's usually not in the context that I will be able to remember what people are doing later on it. I'm focusing on what they're doing so that I can take a photograph of it, or that I can get a moment or that that that I can capture in one image of the essence of what's going on [00:48:30] in this activity or this event. So that's what I focus on and not, um, sort of like being a part of it feeling like I'm a part of it or participating in it. I guess I was kind of getting to the to the idea that in a large event where you've got, you know, hundreds or thousands of people. But actually, when you're doing a one on one thing with, you know, a carer and [00:49:00] a person, um, it it's telescoped right down, isn't it? So you literally you've only got three people in the room or and what kind of impact that has on the work that you do was so they try to engage the people somehow, And I mean, I think it's somewhat of a challenge for me, um, to try to get them more animated in some cases, if they need to be. Or sometimes people are animated, so it's not such an issue. But, you know, I try to talk [00:49:30] with them and have some kind of exchange with them, certainly to to make them feel at ease or to get a sense, maybe, of what they're about, like an environmental portrait. You know, you look around the environment and try to figure out how I can get a good photograph that somehow speaks to them by what they're in, You know, the environment that they're in that says a little bit more about them. So I just try to observe very carefully and try to make those those more [00:50:00] kind of abstract connections. Perhaps I'm wondering if you can talk a wee bit about photographing things like memorial marches like, Say, like the Candle Light Marches and and Remembrance Services. This one thing about those that are more difficult is they're dark so that that then you sort of have the question of, well, should I use a flash which gives a very different ambience to the to the event, or try to use, you know, available light? [00:50:30] It was more of an issue with film with digital, there's more versatility. But even so III I it it's they're very different quality photographs. So that's one issue to to try to, to to decide, and I think probably the the most. The strongest photos of that type of an event is tighter photographs of individuals that looks sad. You know, you don't want people smiling in those things, those [00:51:00] sorts of things which you know people have a tendency to do when you put a camera in their face. They tend to smile, and it doesn't really work in a memorial photograph at all, even though people may not be so sad. But it doesn't really work in the photograph. Um, I wonder also about the the the feeling of intrusion that you're intruding into somebody's private grief. Yeah, I feel pretty cautious in those situations and that I do tend to use a longer lens in that situation. But I usually will have to go and get [00:51:30] names afterwards. And as I said before, you know, people generally are. I've gotten so few refusals of people not wanting to be photographed that it's kind of it's kind of amazing to me because I tend to not to really want to be photographed. I don't really say no, but I sort of if I feel like I'm gonna be in a photograph, I'll like, kind of turn my head or something, and I don't really care to be photographed necessarily. I'm kind of a private person, but [00:52:00] if you ask, I won't say no. But I guess he refused to be photographed. Apparently, I guess also one of those things with those type of memorials are that they are public memorials, aren't they? That it's a It's an outward showing of of free. They are, they are. They are on the streets. There's been very, you know, I think one of the the best photographs I've had of a of of a candle light Marche is actually later when people put their candles at the on the steps of the Department of Public Health [00:52:30] and then one guy came in and he had a flag, I assume a rainbow flag and his back was to the camera. And But you can see all the, you know, the candles and then this silhouette of the guy and then the Department of Public Health, which, perhaps not to a broader audience, but certainly to what? That what the That focus was of that particular march, I assume at the I don't recall exactly, but was focused on the Department of Public Health and something that they were not doing or something [00:53:00] they needed to do. So people left their candles there, so that particular image, I thought, also is a really I like the image very much. I think it's very evocative, and it also tells a news story at the same time, which is sort of like the Triple Crown, in some sense, for a photo. For me as a photographer, as a news photographer, to get something that I feel is a an art is an artistic image and, um, uh, an emotive image and also tells the story. So [00:53:30] when it happens, it feels really good. And when it doesn't, there's always tomorrow. There's always the next one. When do you know that you've got You've got the right image where you go? Ah, yeah, that's a do you know at the time, or just some When when I look at the frame, not with digital, Of course you can do it well, and like in previous, you know when you're editing looking at the contacts. Um, when those three things come together for me, you know when there's some kind of artistic when I feel there's a balanced artistic image and [00:54:00] it evokes an emotion of some sort, and it tells the story of what the assignment was. Although the third part, you know, I mean everything I don't I don't shoot everything on assignment and photographs. I take on assignment don't always fit those three criteria, but when they do, that's, you know, that's to me. Kind of a big success you mentioned a bit earlier about, um, working for the Bay Area reporter and that sometimes they would crop [00:54:30] your image. I'm just wondering, Can you talk about, um, where you frame your image? Is it actually in the viewfinder, or is it later in post production? How does it? No, I must always shoot for frame. I must always try to certainly and achieve it, you know, 98% of the time. Sometimes when I don't is when I can't get close enough and have to crop. Um, yeah, I mean, that's what it is is when I can't position myself in such a way that I can frame through the camera. [00:55:00] That's when I have to crop. But it doesn't happen very often. I that's really been, and for me, that's been a very important aspect of it, and which hasn't certainly been true of photographers throughout history. I was just reading some stuff about Walker Evans, who is quite a famous American photographer, particularly known for work in the 19 thirties and the Depression and he cropped a lot. So you know, it's not, you know, incredible photographers cropped for sure, but I tend not to [00:55:30] try not to. And then when somebody else does crop for you like an editor, how do you feel about somebody else? You know, manipulating your image? I'm not happy with it. And I would get very upset early on, and then I can just kind of give up. And it's It's beyond my control, and that's just the way it is. So but, no, I don't. And there's even times when the article was about me as a photographer and some of my experiences and I, some you know, gave him a couple of images to run and they would crop that. It's like, Well, [00:56:00] it's not that it sounds very irritating. It is. It is, um, sometimes it's it. They're better photographs, but they'll crop them generally not. Generally, it's, uh, you know the balance when they'll crop, even if it's a little bit in the central image of the the photo is there It just, you know, for me, I saw it balanced in a different way. I saw it composed in a different way, and to see that changed is not good. It's sort of not my photo. I mean, [00:56:30] that's not really true. I guess it's still my photo and certainly people know it as my photo. But for me, it's not the same as what I took. And I sort of say OK, someday I'll display that in its full glory and people will appreciate it much more as the photo that it is. Do you do much post production work? I'm thinking like either retouching or cropping. No, no. You know, I use Photoshop now. Um, I always thought I was a pretty I. I always thought I was a good black and white printer. I never learned to print colour, which is unfortunate, [00:57:00] because I think it would help me now in in, you know, change in doing the colour work on some of the digital images. Um, but I do very little I. I do very little. I do some sharpening and I. I do some, but not very much. No. Why is that? I've never explored Photoshop greatly and I don't really want to. They're news photographs, and I really want it to be what it is and and I don't want to manipulate [00:57:30] it very much at all. I don't The the most I would do would be comparable to dodging and burning. And I don't even do that very much in digital. I don't but that that's what I would do mostly in the black and white printing the print printing would be dodging and burning, you know, bringing down the corners and the edges and the skies and trying to bring up the faces and and the things like that the highlights. What is the most moving [00:58:00] image you've shot? Certainly some of the things related to AIDS are very moving. Some of the marriage scenes have been very moving. Um, photographing Mandela, which was at the eighth conference in Durban. I forget how many years ago, Um, but he spoke there, so that was very moving. Those are shoes, you know. Um, [00:58:30] are are those those situations? Uh, other situations. I guess when people are talking about someone I knew or knew of that maybe was in the community. Um, and I get affected by you know, I don't like going to memorials. That and generally the people I, I don't know or know of a little bit or had a a bit of of contact with through my work. But even so, they they're just, you know, it's there's sad times. [00:59:00] So So So those those I don't like those assignments, but they haven't that sense of, um being moved or sadness. Does that happen? Actually, at the event Or is it actually later on, when you're both both, you know, at the event, for sure it does. And then when I'm looking through photographs or even now going back and looking at photographs, say, from the AIDS period and that and seeing so many people that are dead from that [00:59:30] period, Yeah, it's sad. It is. It is, you know, just the potential that was lost, such a creative active, you know, brilliant people, so many of them, and just gone just gone. Behind us in this room are six cabinets of these all negatives photographs. I think four of them are. Yeah, four of them are. The other two are [01:00:00] 4. 5 of them are actually. The other two are old papers, and I'm kind of a clipper, so I have a lot of stuff related to travel and things so yeah, those are negatives and chromes when I would shoot colour was mostly chrome although there was a period Oh, I guess a couple of years where I shot a lot of colour negative film. So those are all there in their own day as well they are. That's how I organise the work is by date, which is something they never taught us in school. And it's sort of basic, [01:00:30] but it took me, I think, a couple of years before I started realised. Well, I need to organise this by date, which seems so simple and it works. That's how I do just everything. Chronological. And then I have a file maker, a very simple FileMaker programme that a friend did for me years ago that has, uh, I guess eight or nine fields date location. Who's there? What it is what the client is, and I can search for all of that and [01:01:00] then go back and get the material by date. And there's the negatives. There's contacts with all the negatives also, so I can look at the contacts which I never I know people can read negatives, but I never really got to be able to do that very well. Expressions are extremely difficult to read in a negative, not in a context. So that's what's there. And I do use it. People do. You know, I do use it for requests [01:01:30] that people have for different issues and different people and things like that. And it's It's really impressive that it's all so well documented because I I think for a lot of people, they just have piles of negatives that aren't dated. I've heard when people have come to, you know, if they're working on a film or something and looking for some photos. I've heard of other photographers in the community that their work is just is not very accessible. But no, I've I've I spent a lot of time doing that, you know, key wording [01:02:00] and and doing it. It's very time consuming to do that, but I keep it up to date and and it's there. So you have all this film negative, and I'm just wondering, Is it a concern of yours that, um, now everything's moved kind of into the digital age? How you actually get your film onto digital? I mean that scanning those those draws would take years. Yeah, no, I would never do that. Somebody else can if they want. But, um, I'll just scan the individual [01:02:30] images that I that I need is is how I work it and just takes a bit more time. I think you lose some quality too. My scanner probably is not the best available. Um, but it works for the newspapers. The quality works. OK, but no, it would be quite an effort to do that. It would. And I certainly don't have any interest or the capability to do it, and I don't see any need to do it either. And, you know, we know film will last. For what? Photography [01:03:00] is about 170 80 years old or something around in there. 18 thirties. Yeah, and digital isn't so we we know negatives last. They're kept right and and such. We don't know about digital. So who knows? If in 100 years, digital will still be accessible, Presumably it will be, but we don't know. And at least with a negative, you can hold it up to the light and yeah, hopefully it's still there. And I seem to do as I look back at these old negatives I seem to have. I did my own development in printing, right. So I seem [01:03:30] to have washed fixed them and washed them is really the key to preserving them. They seem to have done it, OK, that they're holding up well, so I'm glad. So for you. What are the differences between film and digital? What are the things that you've most noticed? Well, that's one thing. Um And like I said earlier, just the fact that you can check what you've done it relieves so much anxiety. And what you see in the back of the camera, it is not always exactly [01:04:00] what you're gonna see on your computer. Certainly doesn't always the one. Sometimes I'll see a photo on my camera. I said, Oh, that looks That looks good. But by the time I look at it on the computer, it doesn't look so good. So there is that It doesn't translate, but definitely it It allows me to check the lighting and check. And like sometimes when I'm in a situation where it's kind of intrusive as a speaker and kind of intrusive to take a photograph, particularly if I have to use a flash. I'll back off if I, you [01:04:30] know, if I get like two or three photographs, that'll work, then I'll stop just because it's so obtrusive and I don't really need anymore. So I'll stop and that. So that's you know, that's one thing that's a benefit, certainly. Um, and in in situations that move fast and that there is a lot of movement, you can take a lot more and more easily. And of course, it's cheap to do that. So I think it's an improvement. I do. I. I think it's made me a better [01:05:00] photographer. One of the things that I found moving from film to digital was I was generally shooting in black and white and then moved into colour colour in digital. And I still think I have a black and white eye. What about you? No, I think No, I think I I I think I I look for I don't think I look for black and white stuff anymore. I. I don't I don't I'm not sure I ever did so much. [01:05:30] No, I think I look much more for colour when I'm looking for a photograph and particularly now. I mean yeah, definitely. Now, although a lot of my photographs are published in black and white, still, it's not always comes out in colour, but if there's a colour, if there's an element to be had that that is strong on the colour, I'll really try to include that in the image. Somehow I will, as as other aspects like repetition, I love repetition. Odd angles. Um, I love [01:06:00] using the corners of of photographs to to sort of the main thing in the corners or in the edges. Um, II, I really love this notion that you've got this little depending on your side, But, you know, you got this little rectangle or square and you've got this vast world around you and you're gonna take this little, little you know, rectangle and capture a big a part of that vast world and make that little chunk work in various ways on various levels. [01:06:30] That's kind of this essential excitement and challenge and fun about photography, and the other things sort of add to it like the historical documentation aspect to it. Kind of just add to it because, you know, the bottom line is is getting a photograph that's that works, whether it's of a person or of an event or of just a chunk of that world. It's interesting, though, isn't it that photographs can work At various times? [01:07:00] I often think of photographs as having almost like half life. So they work at the time that they've been taken then maybe 10 years down the track and then 50 years down the track. They take a completely different Can you talk about how how your photographs have changed over time when you go back and look at them and and and their uses, perhaps? Well, in some ways, I see very that I like, you know, sort of depressingly have changed very little. But on the other hand, if it works, you know why change it, Um, because, like some of the the elements of a successful photograph [01:07:30] for me haven't really changed very much over the years that I've done it. Um, certainly the historical nature changes of it. Um, I think digital has allowed me to experiment more and to end up with more usable images. Um, that would be one change related to that over the but in terms of how I take a photograph and that's, you know, like we talked earlier. That's some of the challenge of trying to be fresh in a situation that isn't very [01:08:00] fresh, and sometimes it just doesn't work. Sometimes you just can't. It just doesn't work. And yet you have to walk out with a photograph. But that's, you know, you look at any publication and particularly a newspaper with deadlines and frequent deadlines. There's a very mixed bag of the quality of the photography, and some many events don't lend themselves to very creative photography at all. So [01:08:30] but how do you think, for instance, some of the act up photographs when they were first taken? They resonate in one way, but when they're seen now, do they resonate in a different way? Or do they resonate in the same way? There's probably less anger looking at them now because it's less immediate. And there are. There are also a lot of successes all that screaming and and, you know, being being annoying paid off, [01:09:00] you know, drug approve processes are different. More drugs are into the market. Prices have gone down. Services have been more sensitive. There's a whole range of things that partially were improved partially by the people that were in the street creaming about this. So there's a you know, I think perhaps there's a sense of looking at that and saying that that worked. And, you know, just in the last year or so there's been quite a bit looking back at act up because it's 25 years. So [01:09:30] some of the things that I've participated in and went to, you know, sort of public forums and discussions about this. I thought there was a real nostalgic view to it, which I'm, you know, feel the same way too. And just of this the the the intensity and the spontaneity of this activism, because people were being affected so directly and it gave it a real power that that isn't true today. So I think people recognise that when they look back at these photographs and hopefully [01:10:00] it'll be a spark for more of that and that it will remind people and teach people that resistance is a constant, really, and particularly in in gay people it it's been people resist a situation that they don't like, or that is not beneficial to them and those photographs from that period capture that particular, uh, one particular aspect of this resistance throughout history. [01:10:30] What about lighting in your photography? Well, I like to, and not with digital. You can do it better, too. You can do it more easily. You just use the natural light. I mean, that's the best. It's not. It's the best, but it's It's one way that I really try to take advantage of and whenever I can. Certainly, otherwise, I essentially use an on camera flash. Um, I've experimented some with handheld flash off camera. I probably should do that more because, you know, you can really do a lot more with and get much more [01:11:00] dramatic lighting with that, Um, but that's essentially what I use, and I will. I mean, I'm constantly aware of it. Of course, you have to be as a photographer, you have to be constantly aware of it, and you get to be able to read light. You know, you teach yourself how to read light and what works and what doesn't and the intensity of it and things like that, just through your own experience. You know, you you certainly get some sense of how to work with these situations? Um, [01:11:30] yeah, shadows, an element that I I try to work with a lot and in performance. It comes into play quite often, and it's a way to kind of add something to it. Um, in circumstances where where there are shadows, are you more aware of the shadowing or the light? I think it was to say at first at the light, you know, I'll really try to look at that and then really, when I look through the frame and maybe take a shot or two and then look at it and say, Oh my gosh, I've cut off the shadow Well, I can just, you know, reframe this and get the shadow. [01:12:00] So so it. I guess digital is one way to sort of remind me to look for that because it's very easy for me, at least to kind of overlook some of these elements when you you're in the situation and really focusing on it and not looking through the photograph to see what's behind and and what else is going to be there when it becomes a one dimensional image and uh, which is quite amazing, how well the eye is able to separate that stuff, it really is and how cameras do or photos do not. And so it's, You [01:12:30] know, it's up to the photographer to be aware of that and try to compensate for it and adjust for it. And certainly lighting is a big part of that of making a clean background and making something in the background part of the background that you want in the background or getting rid of it. You know, it can be used either way.

IRN: 566
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/older_lesbians_prue_hyman_and_pat_rosier.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003976
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089270
TITLE: Prue Hyman and Pat Rosier - Older Lesbians
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Pat Rosier; Prue Hyman
INTERVIEWER: Prue Hyman
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Kapiti Coast District; Pat Rosier; Prue Hyman; arts; civil unions; elder issues; elders; euthanasia; exercise; family; feminism; fitness; friends; health; health system; identity; legacy; lesbian; marriage; mental health; older age; relationships; retirement; social; volunteer
DATE: 29 May 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Paekākāriki, Paekākāriki, Kapiti Coast District
CONTEXT: In this podcast Prue and Pat talk about aging as a lesbian couple.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I have with me Pat Rosier. Hi, Pat. Hi. Pat and I are partners. And rather than having a formal interview either way, we decided it was best just to have a conversation between us about being being older lesbians and, uh, the issues that arise for us, if any, and both in being older and whether it's any different being lesbian and so on. That's the sort of things that we're talking about and I've been talking about with others you've been hearing about [00:00:30] these interviews. The thing that stands out for me that applies to both you and I is that we have very little family. Most of the people you've talked to have Children, and I have a son, sure, but you have no Children, and we both have very little family. I don't have grandchildren. Um, and I think that it's quite clear among our friends that the people who have [00:01:00] Children and grandchildren have quite a lot to do with them are quite involved with them on the whole, um, and that makes a difference, I think, to I don't know how they are in the world in their seventies or whatever sort of age they are. Yeah, I completely agree with that. I mean, it's, um it isn't necessarily a reflection of being lesbian because these are les. I mean, both our straight friends and our lesbians. This is friends. It's true [00:01:30] that most of them have, uh, have Children and grandchildren. We have a few that that don't apart from ourselves, but not many. I have no blood relatives at all. And when we're calling family, of course, we're talking about blood family. I have no blood family at all in New Zealand. Uh, I have a few overseas, but not very much. And don't have a hell of a lot to do with them either. Just a little. And, um And you have you got a niece? But I've got a son and a niece that I have regular contact with in New Zealand. Yeah, but neither of whom have Children, which [00:02:00] is kind of interesting. So that's Major. And, um, I have one brother overseas, but, uh, you know, it's not day to day stuff, and, um, you don't have any siblings either, So it's also that way as well, and it does make life interesting. It essentially means that our friends of whom our lesbian friends are a very, very important component for me. Overwhelmingly, really, Um, are very important to us. Yes, it's the same for me. I have one or two quite close women friends who aren't lesbian. [00:02:30] But the bulk of my kind of social group is lesbians of give a similar age to myself or maybe a decade or two younger. But that's that's what most of my contacts, where most of my connections and contacts are. And certainly I notice all this more as I get older. It's not a function of of, um, getting older in a sense that I haven't had. I haven't had my relations [00:03:00] in New Zealand ever. But as I get older and as I've lost a lot of my friends I've had, I've had a lot of bad luck. I heard more than I have actually had close friends die. I had two ex die and several of cancer and several other close friends as well, and so I suddenly start to notice that the, uh, the networks are thinning out of of the really intimate people. I've got hundreds of acquaintances that the close friends that it's thinning out and we'll probably thin out more. [00:03:30] And that's where you notice that you haven't got family. And while all the people I talked to say they don't want to expect too much of their Children, it wouldn't be right for them. It wouldn't be right for the kids. They don't That's not what they want, but nevertheless they're there, and they're important to them. They don't want to look after them in inverted commas, but, uh, but it is a kind of an essential, ongoing connection of some kind of basic sorts. The family thing, I think. And I think like you, I was pretty much oblivious to it until more recent years [00:04:00] or oblivious to the lack of it. Now, I don't want to have any sense that for me at least, that I'm moaning about this at all. I mean, it's it's interesting observation and it, um, and it also it makes you just simply think about what will happen as you get older because, uh, at the moment we're, uh, 69 and 70 we're, well, I'm we're both reasonably healthy. You've got a few more things wrong with you than me. [00:04:30] But neither of us is in his hand, has disability. That stops us doing a lot. I mean physical things. That one does a little differently less than we used to be. So we're very healthy, really. Basically, at the moment can't worry about mild diabetes. You your heart thing and your, um the the heart thing is completely out of control, and I hardly ever think about it. The knee is a nuisance. It's not life threatening or anything like that. It's [00:05:00] just a bloody nuisance. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, I've always been rather more sporty and active than you, and I've got things That's probably a help me keep me going. But on the other hand, now that I have get troubles with ankles and backs and elbows and and so on, I I'm gonna have to think about that. And I can't do quite as much as I used to in in walking and so on. But that's still all there, but they do regular exercise now. In a way, I never did it any earlier part of my [00:05:30] life, which is my half hour day on the, um I never, ever, until the last three or four years when I started doing the had any kind of regular exercise that I made a point of doing most days, I used to walk, sure, but it was incidental to what else I was doing. And I still do some of that, but not as much because of my knee. And now you feel the need of of exercise this [00:06:00] up? Yeah, absolutely. And it was the, um, diagnosis of marginal diabetes, like just knocking into the diabetes side of things that made me decide that I had to do some regular exercise, and I've done it ever since, and it probably has more benefits than the diabetes, but that certainly has never gotten any worse. And I mean again, that's another function of our age, isn't it, that we talk about health things a lot more. We talk about them and we're conscious of them. We know [00:06:30] that in order to keep well, um, we need to be conscious of our of our health, both in terms of our eating and and in terms of our exercise. I probably still eat a little too much of the wicked things, but I also eat a lot of good things and you're, I think even better about it than me. And I've taken off steadily and care and and easily wait, because I know you don't like being terribly thingy about it or conscious about it, but yeah, I think we're both reasonably good. And you better than me about [00:07:00] how we behave about about food. Food. Yeah, and I'm pretty good about exercise, and I still walk, um, get out in the bush and walk and do regular walking with the dog plus, um, swimming and, um, and I to do the exercise. And I have bought myself a bike and do a little bit. Not much of biking around as well. So trying to keep fit that way. Although I never thought I'd give up ball game sports, but that happened quite a while ago now. But thinking, trying to think like from a specifically [00:07:30] lesbian point of view, um, I guess that sort of who's gonna look after us thing is, you know, if we ever get non encompass or something is an issue is something we should probably deal with more than we have. We keep talking about redoing our wills, and you know that sort of thing which we haven't done since we first got together. And, um well, uh, redoing our wills doesn't help with who looks after us. It just tend to set [00:08:00] up executives and those kind of things, which I mean, we're not too too bad compared with some. We've certainly, um, made sure that each other is is looked after, either in break up or death. We've done that properly, but our worlds do need updating. But on the more what will happen to us if we become, um, non compost mentalist in some way, physically or mentally, we're unable to cope. That is a real problem. I mean, it's a real problem for lots of people I interviewed Mark from Lesbian Elders Village. I mean, uh, the [00:08:30] business of creating a specifically lesbian community is one with gradations of care. If you're lucky, is one sort of proposal that people have made. Although virtually nothing's actually happened yet in New Zealand as a bit elsewhere for us, we'd rather stay where we are, if we possibly can. We've got a beautiful beach house, and we'd like to be able to stay here as long as we can, and I have I find that the idea of any kind of group situation kind of anathema. I can't bear to think about it now. The [00:09:00] reality might be, Yeah, the reality might be that that's what I end up having to do. You can't predict these things, but the idea of living in a rest home, lesbian or not, or any kind of group situation just makes my skin curl for me. Personally, I know it works for a lot of people, and so my thinking tends to be in terms of, um, as you get more decrepit, then you buy in more [00:09:30] help. Now, um, that's predicated kind of on the fact that you've got a lot more money than I have. I'm not in a position to buy in very much help, but you are. So you know I'm aware of that. But you know, as you become able to do this yourself, that that seems to be to be one way, and I think in terms of lesbians or any other people actually growing older. The thing is, there isn't a solution. There isn't a [00:10:00] way to deal with. There's a whole raft of them, and they vary with with mental and physical health are really relevant. Um, as long as you're in a fit state to kind of be in control of your own affairs, even if you have physical problems, you know, that's a different situation from any form of dementia. That means you can't be in control of your own affairs. Um, so I guess what I'm saying is I want to stay in control, [00:10:30] really? And we we both I think feel like that. And we'd like to both stay in this house if we possibly can. And one of the nice things is, um, we're in a small village and there are a lot of these bits here already, and a lot of our friends, and we talk only semi jokingly about the fact that I mean, it's it's reasonably on the flat as long as one's capable of walking, one can do quite a lot, uh, if not able to drive or bike or whatever anymore. And that may be groups of us. Even we could, um, look [00:11:00] after each other in particular ways. Hard joint help if we need to. In our particular house, um, we've got we're lucky enough to have a big house. If stairs get to be a problem, it's two stories. It will be quite possible for the two of us to live totally downstairs and have a a hard, um, person living in or live in part of the time or something upstairs. That's it. I think we are in the fortunate position of having lots of possibilities, none of [00:11:30] which we can or want to decide on now. But we're aware of because of the discussion that's been in among our friends and in the community and with places like live we've become aware of of the sort of rage of possibilities. And we can, as time goes on, make some choices. And some people are not that fortunate exactly. I'm very well aware of that of the politics of it that we're we're rich in in those terms. I mean, maybe mainly my money, but, uh, I think of it just when it [00:12:00] becomes important, it's our money. Even if we haven't amalgamated totally, we certainly do for anything that matters. And, uh, and we've got a beautiful house and a beautiful location, and we're incredibly lucky. And, you know, they are race class. Um number of dependents. All these things are good for other people. And, um and, you know, I think helping others where you can is also important. And I've done some of that because you have indeed, Yes. And, um, but you can't help the whole world. So, [00:12:30] um, let's get a bit more positive now. I mean, not that that is positive, because we're thinking about it. We also we may be 69 and 70 but we're both full of energy, Have lots of activities. We love in some ways a happier older than we were. Well, certainly I feel as though I have a lot of choice about what I do with my time, and I do the things I want to do. And, um, a lot of that is kind of sort of in my head, Um, because [00:13:00] I'm a writer and it's so it's thinking about and finding out about stuff to do with my writing and then doing the writing and so on, and that's fortunate because it doesn't require a lot of physical stamina. Um, and I'm you know, I have a sort of love affair of sorts with the Internet or the bits of it that please me and plenty of it, I ignore. Um, I think perhaps one advantage [00:13:30] of being lesbian is that if you've been lesbian for any length of time at all, and I was one who came out rather late. Unlike Pru, who came out in her twenties is that you get in the habit of thinking a bit more widely because as a lesbian you have to kind of make up your life as you go because you don't fit the sort of set social pattern. Then you get used to thinking about the options, thinking a bit more widely, thinking about how you're gonna do things. [00:14:00] Um, and so that's an advantage in the sense that you, by the time you're getting old, you've got that habit. You don't see just one path because there's never been just one path for lesbians. Um, and so that's one way in which I would sort of claim an advantage, just that kind of rate of thinking. Um, I certainly don't feel disadvantaged, although I think there is some evidence [00:14:30] that people who end up in rest home or kind of being cared for situations often find that the fact they are lesbian becomes invisible, and that can be painful and even have act active discrimination they want to partner in or whatever whatever. So I have to say that hospitals and those kind of places I've got to be excellent things have improved a lot. But in any any dealings that [00:15:00] we've had with hospitals in recent years, mostly to do with me, there's never been any difficulty at all about you being my partner, for instance, so in those in those kind of structured, if you like health system situations, it's not a problem. But I think in a kind of rest home, caring for situation at best it can be, um, that the lesbianism is invisible. You don't have a partner, [00:15:30] uh, and lesbian friends, for instance, not being given the status of visiting family, for instance. Whereas in fact they have the role of family in a person's life. I think they can still be issues, but that's the sort of stuff that people are working on, and they need to um, we of course, um uh, it's often a little easier in the league in the system if [00:16:00] you have have had a civil Union, and this is an issue which is an interesting one, because, uh, a lot of our friends have had Well, some of our friends have had civil unions, although because of the particular brand of lesbian feminism we come out of, there's probably more resistance to it among our friends, among friends and among many, I mean, there are, of course, there are others who won't have a civil union because it's not total equality with marriage and at the end. And we are people who don't won't have a civil union, even though we've been [00:16:30] together for 15 years, because we don't see any need to whatever part of that's luck, that we don't have any interfering family. We haven't got custody issues or anything of that sort. And I totally understand people that immigration people have a civil union sorts of reasons. But if you don't have that, I don't have an interfering family. I have practically no family at all, and you you trust your son to be properly. We don't need to have a civil union and as, uh, feminists and I'm a feminist economist. I'd sort of analyse [00:17:00] the business that I didn't think marriage had been particularly good for heterosexual women. Anyway, why do we just want to join it and say we're just like you, blah, blah? We actually want to be a bit different, and we don't need it. We don't have to affirm it to anybody. We we, um We don't need the ceremony and to show others all the people that matter to us know we're an established, happy partnership. I, um I just think nobody should get married or have a civil union [00:17:30] or anything. Well, if this whole of the state welfare systems and rules were such that they nothing ascribed to it, then I would agree with you. But it will be hard to get that, um, for the agreed through the system. For the moment, I think you could just simply have somewhere where you go and sign and register. If you need to do that for the legal system, and then if churches want to have ceremonies or any group or goddess religion or anybody else, if anybody wants to have it, good [00:18:00] luck to them. We wouldn't. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. OK, I could go along with that like some kind of a civil sign. Something to say that you're a partnership and some kind of ceremony. I mean, just a party for your friends if you want it or something in a church, if you want it or whatever. Fine. But the sort of the marriage thing is such an institution. And so, um, has such baggage has? Yeah, but I just I don't want a bar of it, Really. I mean, I was married once to a man. [00:18:30] Um, it wasn't a particularly good idea for both of us, for either of us. I think, with hindsight, get two kids out of it. I'm not at all sorry about that. Um, but I don't think we were good for each other as husband and wife particularly. And he wasn't a horrible person. Um, you know, he wasn't violent or any of those GS things. Um, so yeah, [00:19:00] so I guess I'm sort of anti marriage, period. So why would I? I mean, I would feel hypocritical to go and get married. Although I totally accept external reasons. Like, um um, Children, immigration. I know one couple who are close friends of mine got married because they feared difficulties in one of their families. If there was not some legal [00:19:30] basis, uh, at some point in the future. And that's right. Yeah, Let's let's get back to all the the nice things we do. Do as you said you are. You you choose your own time. You're a writer published novelist in recent times and so on. And, uh, and you also mentioned Internet and email and all that stuff I do. I do a lot of that too. I, uh you still do a bit of paid work. Oh, yeah, but yeah, but from home stuff, [00:20:00] well, I do a little bit of work that involves sort of meeting people in town. But I don't mind that because I like to go into town and it's it's 1 to 1 work with people I like working with. So, um, anybody I don't like working with has seemed to have fallen by the wayside. And I'm certainly not seeking out new Um, yeah, so I still do a bit of paid work, and I like that both because I like the extra bit of money and because I like what I'm doing. And what are What are your other activities apart [00:20:30] from writing and that, Well, this the sort of cultural ones the movies, which I don't go to nearly as many of as you do, but the movies and the shows and the, um, and the arts and the, um, and the book related events that I go to and the, um, and the voluntary work that we both do. I mean, you know, we both actually have a person older than us with some dementia, in fact, that we visit quite independently and separately [00:21:00] just happened. Um, and yes. And yes. So So you're still involved with other things. What, Uh, you're just about to do a book voluntarily. A writing group for lesbian book, Uh, for for the lesbian library. Yeah, that's a volunteer thing. And who does all kinds of volunteer things in the lesbian community and outside of it, the lesbian radio programme the, um the [00:21:30] the living wage thing. You know, your local your temple, you do a lot of volunteer work for them singing. I mean, in terms of activities, singing has become a very important retirement. One for me. I talk about singing Jewish on Saturdays and Christian on Mondays with a giggle and lesbian and gay now on Thursdays, because the Gle was, uh and I do a lot of singing and, um yeah, I. I like the other thing is the sort of the [00:22:00] specifically political stuff both lesbian, political and general political. We're both leftish and greenish. Uh, at least in theory, I'd like to be a bit more green in practise than I am, but, uh um, things like being a vegetarian is sort of somehow not I haven't managed to achieve because I like the other stuff too much, and I sometimes feel a bit hypocritical about some of those things, but, uh, and I rather drive the car too much, but, uh, but I'm certainly a green supporter and try and do a little better in practise than I used to. And I've done [00:22:30] work some work for the greens and this living wage thing that Pat remarked on as this, um, Service and Food Workers, New Union, new campaign on living wage. And I'm doing voluntary, um, stuff on the research group for that. So I like to do those things. I don't I don't do any paid work anymore. Really? I suspect. I think I've probably just finished doing my last, my last doctoral student having finished. And so, uh, I just relinquished my office at Victoria University last [00:23:00] Christmas and I was worried about that. I thought, you know, that my identity and a big would I miss that? But I actually don't. And would I miss having an office in town? Well, it's only six months, but, uh, I'm not finding that a problem. You've been much more relaxed about it than I thought you would be. Actually, it's been really good. Yeah, and I seem to have too many activities to do rather than too few. I simply can't with all those voluntary things and with I mean, I have [00:23:30] similar interests to pattern in arts and movies and things. But I'm not a writer myself. I think my singing is balance for your right. So we both have a kind of a creative kind of speak to what we do, which is good. Uh, yours is more so singing. I see what other people tell me to sing, but that's OK, but I love films, a similar part of one's psyche. I think that may well be right, and for me, with the physically active stuff and and those things [00:24:00] and the voluntary work and the, um, just keeping up with everything politically and so on. And I want to. I always remember that the reason my mother didn't want to die until just before the end, when she was really all too much for her. And she was in a lot of pain was that she couldn't bear not to know what was going on in the world like that. Yeah, quite like in some in many ways. That's why we get on. Some people like to have different Well, we have plenty of different [00:24:30] similarities. Um, one of the other things, um, Gareth, who commissioned this series, said that that was interested in us talking. Talking to various people about was some legacy in inverted commas. I You know what, um, does it matter to us whether anybody remembers us after we've gone, and if so what? By or don't we care about leaving a legacy? That's a good question. Um, I think we sort of stay alive as long as anybody remembers us. And, [00:25:00] um, you and I have both got written stuff. Yours nonfiction. Sure. Your lots of your papers and things that are online and all sorts of places. And one of the things about publishing my writing, um, is that I always make sure I send copies to the, um National Library for the National Archive. So that in a way, there's this tiny little dot of me in the, which [00:25:30] is lesbian fiction in the National Archive, which is there for anybody who's looking for something like that can find right. And it seems to me that that's the most important part of my of a legacy for me is the the fact that my writing about what it's like for some lesbians, certainly not all to be living in New Zealand at this time, [00:26:00] which is what my fiction is about. But that's there. And sure, in three decades, nobody much is going to be looking for it right. But, um, if anybody is looking for it, it's there. It's part of part of the national record, and that somehow matters a lot to me. And other than that, you know, when people who remember me die, well, I guess I've gone, Yeah, so that's part of the thing. [00:26:30] If David doesn't have Children. Yes. Um, that's part of the thing about not having Children and grandchildren. You got one child, and, uh and I do have occasional wistful feeling about that, but, um, I was a bit old for the I came out. Um, I never got married, and I came out quite young. And the lesbian baby boom started just about as I was finishing childbearing age. And I, um it crossed my mind for five seconds, and I knew I was too old and selfish, and it [00:27:00] wasn't a good idea. And, um uh, but, you know, one shouldn't be thinking necessarily about living through your direct descendants anyway. I mean, as you say, memories are important and and some degree of of written record, I don't think either of us are important enough for anyone for us to have biographies written on it. I mean, but you were in that book of Jewish people in New Zealand in New Zealand, and, um, you [00:27:30] see, I think that's all legacy. And, um, so perhaps I wouldn't like the idea of of thinking that I was going to sort of disappear in a puff of smoke forever or something. And the the knowledge of written record, you know, written, published writing somehow fulfils that need for me. Um And I mean, obviously it could be artworks or music or anything else. It just so that I'm a writer. But, I mean, you've got your woman in economics books, [00:28:00] and that's in the national record. And your, um, economics papers, um, you know, websites and stuff all over the place. And if they do disappear and they are no longer relevant, Well, and, uh, or if they emerge again in 100 years time as how often seems to be in circles rather than yeah, I I sometimes think I wonder what will happen to this house because it's such a beautiful house and that [00:28:30] we've both gone because we, um you know, and, uh, when I think about redoing wills, I think you know, I should I try and leave that to a cause? But on the other hand, um, it's probably more of a it's better for it to be sold. And that money is going to cause I like to think of leaving money to, um, a lot of it to to good causes. And, um, yes, I Yes, I don't I don't have that so much of a sense of things. Really. Um, [00:29:00] I think they come and they go. Well, I suppose I've lived in more different houses, for example than you have. So I'm not so attached to a particular house in the other bit of legacy, though of course, is I mean, what you know, we both do volunteer for things and and individual stuff and group stuff because we have a vision of trying to make the world a better place. And I do sometimes wish that I had done more to, uh, to make the world a better place. I do Jewish guilt and shame rather well and think I haven't done enough, [00:29:30] and I'm still not doing enough. And I'm enjoying myself too much now and not doing enough. But, uh, but certainly the business of having tried to make the world a better place, I think is an important part being Yeah, I don't sort of have that particular albatross or my albatross of that Nature is considerably smaller than yours. Um, so that doesn't bother me quite so much. I don't I. I would always want to think that I was doing something in my life that [00:30:00] was a contribution in some kind of way to, you know, and and it's much the same. It's the same for me. It heavier weight. Yes, it's the same kind of idea, but it's not such a heavy weight. And yeah, there's activities and then people do matter. I sometimes think we're both quite good at being on our own. I mean, we're we're not joined at the hit together. We do a lot of things together and a lot of things separately. We have a big house so that we can be quite separate in it when we want to [00:30:30] be. And then our studies are upstairs and downstairs, you might say, and, uh and so we can be quite separate. And I think we both like our own company individually and our company together without anybody else in which we are sometimes being compatible, and sometimes we're ignoring each other. All those things are good, but, um, and I think we're probably more self sufficient each of us than than many other people we know. But nevertheless, friends still matter, and certainly seeing seeing [00:31:00] friends individually or peers or or groups and some of the bigger, not quite so into bigger parties. But we we host lesbian pot luck this coming weekend this year, and and those sorts of, uh, of things of group group. Yes, I think as I get older, I'm less inclined to large group activities. It doesn't mean I don't do any, um, and I don't worry [00:31:30] too much about that. Um, and I've got a lot of good friends who are important to me and many of whom I my contact with is a bit, but it's important, and you talk a lot on the phone to people in other cities and and overseas. Yes, not as much as you think I do, I don't think, but and also yeah, and also it's It's not a an even thing. It it [00:32:00] comes and goes. Sometimes I'll speak to three people for an hour and a week, and then I won't talk to anybody for you know. So it it, um But yes, there are some connections that I work quite hard at keeping going because, um, because they're important and a lot of them aren't local. I always think I want to keep more than I actually actually managed to do because last year I went back to England and, um, it was 50 years since I've been to, um, up to Somerville College, Oxford, for the first time. We had a great big anniversary, and it was really neat. [00:32:30] And it was lovely seeing. And I saw the people, my close friends, of about half a dozen or so of the group I've managed to stay friends with across the miles of 43 years in New Zealand so that I do make some effort and, uh and that was really nice. And, uh, we, um, vowed to stay in touch. And, of course, I stayed in touch much less than I hoped to have One Skype conversation, and that's about it. I always do an end of year letter, which always keeps me a little in touch. But, um, uh, that's another thing for me to think instead [00:33:00] of winter with is, uh, one goes out that I might try and do some more calls to my friends in England. Yes, yes, indeed I do. And, um, yeah, it's It's funny how you don't seem to have time for everything even, uh, even even though for many years I've thought How does anybody ever manage to have a life and a full time job? Because, [00:33:30] um, yeah, And you know, I've worked, Who knows how long it is since I've worked full time because I've been self-employed. It's sort of not been readily measurable, but, um, you know, I've worked quite hard right up until, I don't know, 10 years ago or something. And since then, I've probably worked a bit less. And certainly since I turned 65 I've worked less for, um money, Um, [00:34:00] and and being pleased to be in a position to be able to Let's talk about one more thing. We're really over our time, but I can't resist it. Um, we've talked about what we enjoy doing and how we're still having darn good lives. And as long as we've got our health, we can go on doing so and hopefully, even as your health declines, there are some things you can still do. And we've talked about legacy. But we haven't really talked about the process of, um of dying and [00:34:30] death and what we think, And I suppose afterwards we are saying that essentially it's through memory. You're not a A taught you're an atheist and I call myself a Jewish agnostic and I don't really believe in an afterlife as such, and so not to worry about that so much, But the actual process of dying I am a bit worried about, um I've given that quite a lot of thought and don't think about it quite so much now as I used to. I think I, um because I [00:35:00] think I've decided it's unknowable in the sense that you can't know whether you're just gonna drop dead like that, which has its attractions or, you know, have a long, slow, painful or a short pain Uh, a not painful illness or whatever. And it's like, Yeah, and and so you can't prepare yourself for how you're going to die because it's something you can't know. So I've a little bit throw my hands up in the air and said to myself, What will be will be, [00:35:30] um and I hope I can do it with some grace when whatever it is occurs. Yes, I, I don't know whether I want grace, grace and dignity is one way of doing it. I remember two cancer deaths of friends I knew had grace and dignity, and I couldn't believe how wonderful she was. And I thought maybe she was a bit too wonderful, you know, and cared about everybody else. And maybe if she had a bit less, she might have lasted longer and my other very close friend And I won't put her name on in this context. But you know who I met [00:36:00] who was angry as hell and bloody awful to a lot of people, but who had far longer years than you would have expected with secondary cancer and, um, have no grace and dignity at all. I may be a bit at the end, but I don't mean having grace. Well, I don't necessarily think grace and has to have dignity, right? But certainly I'm just Certainly when I talk about with Grace, I'm talking about the kind of the actual end, the end, few days or hours or whatever. I'm not suggesting that [00:36:30] I want to be Those can be Those can be years, of course. And I mean, that's the other part that worries me. I mean, I am in principle. I'm in favour of of euthanasia. If one if one chooses. If one thinks one's had enough because it's terribly painful or not, and you're never going to get better, I'm principal. I think you should be able to make that choice, although in practise there are so many fish hooks and difficulties and are you in the You know it may be too late for you to choose yourself at that point, and you can't involve other people and get them [00:37:00] in. But in theory, II, I think you should be able to to choose if things are are really difficult for you. And I don't want a long, painful illness. Thank you. If I can possibly avoid it, Um, you want quality of life until the end, and otherwise why bother? But, you know, as you say, you can't. No, you can't make those decisions in advance. And you can, of course, prepare better than what you have in terms of the practicalities, but not [00:37:30] all your possessions and stuff. I still got a hell of a mess of files which I've got to deal with and this thing on the medical front, there's things like the do not resuscitate provisions. If you and power as well as well. Yeah. So there are all those kind of things and on our list for a while. And we haven't done anything very practical about we will, but they Yeah, we can do those for a while, but we don't [00:38:00] plan to die for quite a long while. I don't ever plan to die. I've got no, I'm perfectly well occupied. And, um, things are Yeah, carry on. Carrying on. Thank you. Absolutely. Me too. And we have both have a very good life. We do? Yes, we extremely fortunate. And we have a very good life. Yeah, Excellent. Separately and together. OK, well, that's probably more than you wanted to know about us. So this [00:38:30] is Prue and Pat signing off? Yes, indeed. Signing off.

IRN: 565
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/older_lesbians_marg_curnow.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003975
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089269
TITLE: Marg Curnow - Older Lesbians
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Marg Curnow
INTERVIEWER: Prue Hyman
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Lesbian Elders Village; Marg Curnow; civil unions; death; elder care; elder issues; elders; family; health; legacy; lesbian; older age; relationships; retirement; social
DATE: 14 May 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Marg talks about growing older and the Lesbian Elders Village.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: OK, well, this is meant to be a quite sort of informal interview. Of which we sort of think about, um um what it means for you, um, for being, um an old or older or whatever lesbian and the sorts of things that are, um, you've thought about with respect to it. And you're very much at the younger end of the spec, you know, I guess I am. I'm 61. So that puts me at the end. And you don't Do you even think of yourself as being an older lesbian? I asked you partly [00:00:30] because you're involved with a group involved with with those those? Yes, yes, and the Lesbian Elders Village. Now, I don't really think of myself as old or older, but I am conscious that I will be before too long so it feels nearer than it did 10 years ago. And I think that's why I'm involved in live because I can see that being closer in the issues that come with it being closer, Although I'm not experiencing them. So you're probably one of the younger ones in the group? Not at all. No. I'm one of the [00:01:00] one of the older ones. I think there are 1234 perhaps older than me. So in some ways, the group is about planning for it. Not being there exactly. Perhaps you could tell us a bit about the group to start with because we won't have anyone else involved with. OK, so this is an Auckland based group, which, um came in response to a S a on, um, experience with her partner Marlene, when Marlene was, um, diagnosed with Alzheimer's [00:01:30] and the issues that came up with being a lesbian and trying to get care and appropriate care for a lesbian. And so we've responded to that, and we in Auckland, there's a a core group of about 13 or 14. Um, and we've been looking at how we want to grow old and the different ways that we can make that happen, where we can be who we are in an environment that we are determining and not having to fit in [00:02:00] in a straight environment and certainly not have to go back to being in the closet in a straight environment and trying to create. So we came up with the concept of a village type, the idea of a village. So that's why we called the Lesbian Elders Village. And how far have you got with it? So far, we've done enormous amounts of planning and talking. And, um, we have, uh, an ownership structure. So we have an ownership structure and a sort of a model for the village. And really, we're at the point and it gets to be a [00:02:30] bit of a Catch 22. You know, we need to buy land in order to start building. But in order to buy the land, we need to sell our houses. Because, of course, none of us have got millions stashed away. And so, But if we sell our houses, where are we going to live while we're building the village? And interestingly, there's a reluctance from just about all of us to sell where we are in order to buy something to make it happen. And there is a cost issue because it's like, how far out of the city do we want to be, And if you're buying something [00:03:00] in the city that's going to be big enough to build accommodation for, you know, 50 people or 100 people, it's very expensive. And so there are some big issues there we've got to deal with because we have to be willing to take the plunge. That's right. But it is a difficult one and probably need some outside funding to help you. We will need some outside funding, particularly at the beginning. And so that's another thing that we are looking at investigating, investigating [00:03:30] grants and things, but yeah, one. I mean, of course, there are some some similar sorts of things, at least in the U. SI don't know. Well, the US ones are mostly public housing, and they're mostly targeted at people who can't afford their own homes. They don't have the tradition, as we have here of home ownership. Um, but they're certainly looking at a lot of things. And I did go over a few years ago to investigate some of what was happening there through [00:04:00] the, um, old lesbians organising for change. Um, but yes, the the things we looked at were public housing. Yeah, which was very exciting. But it was public housing, which is not like to come here. No, what you want What we want Exactly where the real crunch comes. Um, I know you've got a super website which I've looked at. We do have a website and we have twice a year. I think one of the issues is that [00:04:30] we're all incredibly busy. Yeah, and you know, it's that freeing up the time and the energy to try and make things happen more. I mean, our of course, um went around the country and and was talking at one early on in the piece and was trying to get groups going other places as well. And we did have meetings in this region Wellington cap the coast. But I don't think anybody has had the energy to take it onwards here. And, uh, for some of us some, I mean Pat and I we're hoping that will be a, [00:05:00] uh, not a lesbian village, but at least have a quite a large number of community can almost do it. Yeah, and for me, I had the experience because my partner died 2. 5 years ago and one of the things, of course, that comes up from that. She was only 47 when she died. And so it's not just about age, but the whole thing of needing care is not just about growing old, it's about getting illness. And the experience we had during that time where we were so incredibly [00:05:30] supported by our friends by our lesbian friends was that if we had lived even closer together, it would have been so much easier for them. It put people under a lot of pressure because they cooked for us and they came around and they cleaned for us. And they did all sorts of things to enable Sue to have the best quality of life that she could and to enable me to be with her as much as I could. Um, and that was really hard when we were spread around Auckland suburbs, even though we all lived in the kind of western suburbs, it was still really [00:06:00] difficult. And so that for me, heightened how important it is that we at least live ideally in walking distance from each other, if not a short car ride. But, you know, walking distance would be great, you know, they're still bound to be issues with care, are they not, because for some people, I mean it depends how, what sort of illnesses people have. But you can't always stay in place. When you've got really severe, you can't always. But certainly the trend in public care is very much [00:06:30] towards now, keeping people at home as long as possible rather than going into care. It's actually It's unfortunate, of course, but to be expected that for the state they'll go for the cheapest option. And in this case, we're lucky that the cheaper option is actually the better option, which is supporting people to stay at home with as much care as possible. A lot of retirement villages sort of do levels of care, don't they? They do, they do. And uh so they've got different they wouldn't be looking at. There's a little bit of difference [00:07:00] in us in terms of how we look at that. Some people within the group want to have hospital care. Others of us and I'm in the group who don't think that the cost of doing it and the regulations around it are far too hard and that actually we should look at supporting each other to be in our own homes as long as possible. And for most of us, that will be until we die, because most people. Actually, most old people die at home. And for those who can't and whom we can't support at home, then we [00:07:30] need to ensure that we can be our lesbian Selves in whatever institution we happen to be in, whether it's a private hospital or public hospital or whatever it is. Yeah, well, we don't That's probably enough about that on the website so people can go and find it. Well, let's let's talk more about, uh, what you're thinking about personally about the challenges of of, um, getting [00:08:00] older. And and of course, there are different challenges for you that I mean, we all have different challenges. You've got got Children. But, um, you have a partner who's who's having died. I know you haven't got no, and I don't imagine I will be in another relationship. That's my sense at the moment. And you can tell as well as Sue would say, Never say never. But it's my feeling is that I probably won't be, um, and that's absolutely [00:08:30] fine. I don't Yes, I'm very happy being on my own at this stage, but it does raise issues. I mean, you know, for anybody you know, you get the flu, you get sick. It's horrible being on your own. And while that's fine, when I'm relatively young and able bodied, that may be different when I'm 75 or 80 in terms of how I feel and that's where we get back to. If there's someone next door who can come in, make you a hot lemon drink or, you know whatever bring something [00:09:00] in, it's so much easier. And something else we were talking about before we started the tape was things like Holidays and travel. And, uh, you know how How do you want to deal with those things? So you are intrepid enough to do it all on your own. I do some on my own, but not all of it. And so it is finding I you know, I travelled last year with a friend and we went to the Michigan Women's Music Festival and travelled in the States, and it went really well and yeah, sometimes I think it's different friends for different holidays. You know, I want [00:09:30] a blob holiday. I want to go to to and just blob on the beach. I probably wouldn't it'd be another person. Maybe you know it's that sort of thing. It is much harder without a partner, and you used to be a big walker. I still really enjoy that. Which is how I managed to, um, break my arm, which is currently in pasta, and I enjoy that. I'm actually happy walking on my own, but I also have friends that I can do it with, and I enjoy that. So I'm fine for those sorts of things. Um, [00:10:00] it's more just the little things, you know, the day to day things. But that's the reality for anyone who's on their own at any stage. So you know the things about growing old and being on your own, um, more the, um, little extra cares that a partner can do at times that you have to do everything for yourself. So, yeah, you chop the wood and you light the fire and you vacuum the floor and you do all of those sorts of things. None of it's shared right now. It's interesting with respect to the village that it's an Auckland based thing, and you've been in [00:10:30] Auckland for quite a few years now as an ex Christchurch girl, and now I'm moving to moving to Wellington. But presumably you'd move back up at some point. If the village necessarily. We've talked about this, um and not necessarily maybe so. You might be involved with the village, but not necessarily living in it. That's right, because yeah. So I'm moving to Wellington. Basically because of my grandchildren. I've got two grandsons and I want to help turn them into good men. I think the world needs good men and there's two [00:11:00] of them that I can help bring up. Um, but they they're six and four. But when they're older, who knows? That's a big open question. And you've got more than they've got the same mother, haven't they? But you've got other. Yes, but possibly they'll be the only two. But they they're all around Wellington at the moment. You've got three daughters. I've got three daughters, two in Wellington. One's gone back to Christchurch. She's gone back to university, so she's in Christchurch. But obviously your family is very important [00:11:30] to my family. Is very important to me. Yes, I'm very close. I've got three daughters, which is a wonderful thing, and I'm very close to them and I enjoy being with them. So they're a big part of that family part of your growing older. But you've also got friendship networks that I've got friendship networks in Christchurch and in Auckland. And I have got some old ones in Wellington that I will resurrect. Indeed. Yeah, but strong ones in Christchurch and Auckland. And, uh, what about lesbian community? [00:12:00] I mean, there's a lot of that lesbian community. Is lesbian community important to you hugely important to me and I can't imagine. I mean, one of the things that made it easy to think about moving to Wellington was that I know people here, and it's, as I say, easy to pick up those links again and feel connected to a community because I couldn't imagine living somewhere and not being connected to a lesbian community. Yeah, that's just not that I couldn't do it in terms of sort of political activity. I mean, obviously, there is a political activity in itself. Is that your main lesbian [00:12:30] one these days? Yes, it is. It's my own. I've been part of the, uh, newsletter, the Auckland News newsletter. Um, but that's the main live in the news. The have been my main ones. Um, yes. So I'll be hooking up to something when I move to Wellington. Because it is an important part of my life that I am involved in politics. Things are a bit quiet in Wellington. You have to start something. We don't have to stir things up. We don't have a newsletter. We [00:13:00] do, of course, have a radio and a library and various other things. And you've got the archives. And yes, yes, it is quite a bit. What about other things? How do you see? Do you How do you do You think ahead. Do you see how your life may change as you get more into the older group? I'm still working. I'm still working and I want to keep on working. Um, I imagine cutting back like I'm looking for work now. And if something was four days, I'd be really happy, you know, maybe even three. Probably [00:13:30] four. But, you know, I look at cutting back gradually. Retirement's not a concept that, um my none of my family have ever retired. My father's 90 he's still working, although more slowly than he used to. But he's still working, So yes, we don't really do retirement. My mother never got old enough to retire. Unfortunately, she died young. Um, so I don't have that, right? Exactly. Yeah. And having some time to do more voluntary things and be involved [00:14:00] and have more time with the boys. What about, um, hobbies? You've already talked about walking and travel and other things. Well, reading and gardening and yeah. So that's the other thing I'd be really interested in. Is transition town the whole transition town movement I'm really interested in. And I'd love to be part of something like that in Wellington too, right? I mean, I've been involved in environmental stuff. Yes, I have self sufficiency and sustainability [00:14:30] and all of those things. So I still flirt occasionally with the idea of building a nice little passive house down here friendly house. So, yes, that early in Christchurch out of Christchurch, Weren't you involved with? No, in Christchurch? You had that, um, where we live at here road. And we were We had a big community there. Yeah, but something else there. Was that right? Yes. Yes. Yeah. It was part of, um it was one of those labour schemes where we were teaching [00:15:00] people how to grow things organically. Yes, So I have been part of all of those things for a long time, and that will continue. I think the transition to our movement is really exciting. And I'd love to be part of a raising awareness around that. The other thing I'm really interested in that ties in with growing old is how we approach this and how we care for ourselves, particularly just after death, the time between the dying and the funeral and how we manage that. And I'm really that that is probably [00:15:30] the area I'm really going to focus on, uh, tell. Tell us a bit more about that. Well, um, it's the whole thing for a lot of people. This itself is unfamiliar, let alone how you care for someone how you what you do. And so I'm working on the premise. And I'm very lucky that I have a family history, a cultural history, um, Irish Catholic, where death was just part of life. And so if I use that experience with Sue [00:16:00] when Sue died, um, we didn't have her balmed. We kept her at home. She didn't leave home. We washed her. She died at home. We washed her and dressed her at home. We kept her cool using actually using ice Chill those ice packs you put in chilli bins. You know so And we could have kept her at home for six or seven days like that. You don't need to embalm people. So all the issues around embalming toxicity what it does to the environment, reassuring people that you don't have [00:16:30] to embalm to have someone not start decaying. You can keep them at home. Yes. So all of those issues thinking often, funeral directors direct. It's the nature of what they do you. When someone dies, you're vulnerable. You're not thinking clearly. And it's helping people to to know what the choices they have are lots and lots of people have said to me, Oh, they came and they took mum away or they took so and so away. And they did. They just sort of went along with it because they didn't know they had any choices around it. [00:17:00] How you organise the being at home, how you organise the farewells, what happens after that? All of those things. So for me, the idea of working with people to make sure they know their choices and help them decide what choices they want to make. It's doing with death. What what feminist did with birth back in the seventies? It's it's owning it. And the book that I read that thinking about the same. [00:17:30] And so that's I guess, probably where I see myself doing most of my political work not just with lesbians, but in a huge way with lesbians because we do it so well. What about the final bit of, uh, of the burial itself? Have you got ideas there? I mean, did did sue have a I mean, I don't know much about natural burial, but right, there's the whole She investigated the eco burial. Um, for Sue being buried. It was the whole thing of Where are you buried [00:18:00] and who? Why are you buried? And because she'd had a lot of radiotherapy and a lot of very toxic drugs. Her as she said, Whatever happened to her, she was going to be toxic. Whether she was in the ground or whether she was burned. She That was just how it was. Um, she had, you know, the radiation therapy stays um she decided in the end she wanted to be cremated, and that was an issue for me. I had to work with it because I'm not used to cremation. [00:18:30] Um, but we went through that, and that was that was good. Um, for me, I'd like to have an eco burial, you know? And the whole thing is about being buried in the first, not going down 6 ft. But you know that the worms and all the decaying action happens at the top level. So it's really looking at that. Yeah. So that's great. Yes, yes. And with yeah, yeah. So that's my That's my I [00:19:00] guess my experience has drawn me to that. And I think it's a big, big issue for us, and lots of people don't like to think about it, But we need to think about it. We need to talk about it and the other practical stuff around. It was the things Sue and I were a couple, and although we didn't share finances, we I knew where her things were. But there were things that I had to do with her affairs that I had no idea I had to. I would have to do and just making sure we know those things. If we go back to the birth analogy, it's like having a backpack before we have the baby, you know? So you've got all the things [00:19:30] you need, the same idea. You were partner so you could do it all with her. It's also important that those of those people who don't have partners, which may include may have other people who know somebody one or more people. I was her partner, but I wasn't legally her next of kin because we were not civil union right, which was a decision not to be. But there are issues around that, too, and that's something that we need to think about people expressing their wishes on in in [00:20:00] writing. So that and Sue, in her straightforward sort of way, had said to her sister, who was her legal next of kin, what wants gets. And that was really and Joe was fine when there were any issues around that yes, for my partner and myself don't want to be, yes, but we do have to think about what that means in terms of next of kin, because that was one of the things that I mean. I put myself [00:20:30] on the death certificate as her next of kin and as her partner. But if there'd been any questions, it wouldn't have been quite so straightforward. That's right. It's one of those reasons, of course, why some people do get civil unions because they fear that they have family who are interfering. I understand that, you know, because it does give you a legal right which you don't have. So it's very much about people's relationship to their families and about having things out in the open. So it is something we need to talk about and think about and not just presume because [00:21:00] it's still happening, that families step in and it's wills and everything else. I mean, an awful lot of us, even who are very aware. Pat and I have been talking about we've protected each other in our wills, but we they're still out of date in some other respects and and we don't get around to doing it. And if we are choosing not to civil union for political reasons, we have to follow through and make sure that our affairs are totally in order and that we've actually done all the little bits around that, so [00:21:30] that they're the things that I feel strongly about. And I've often thought, you know, probably as time goes on when I, you know, as I feel more able running workshops and around things like that is something I'd really like to do so that we know really important. And that's very different. If we think about what's different for us as lesbians, that is absolutely yeah, yeah. And what other sorts of things? I mean, um, money has been touched on because [00:22:00] of the business of selling houses and and the village is is money a thing that you need to worry about at all as you get older, or is it something you don't have to think about? I've never been very good at sort of thinking about retirement and, um, putting money aside, but I I I don't have lots of money, but I have enough that I will be able to live in a freehold house and, you know, yes, I'll be fine. So I'm lucky in that respect that I've earned reasonable money. And, of course, then there's the wills [00:22:30] thing about, um, you've got kids and grandchildren. So you have to figure out, Well, it is because certainly when I was, it's interesting when I was younger and, um, my partner at that time and I we you know, we made our wills out and left money to the the lesbian community for different things and left some to our Children, but essentially the bulk of our estate. We were leaving to the lesbian community, and that's something I need to look at. I have. Obviously, I've made some requests to lesbian community, but [00:23:00] as once Children get older and want to buy their own homes and all of that thing, it it changes it. But I think it's it's an important thing to think about. And I've actually talked to my kids' dad about it because they don't need to inherit a whole lot from each of us and, um, the one that is something I need to think about. And I guess for lesbians who don't have Children, it's the whole estate that they people like you need to think about in terms of where does it go and what do you do? Does [00:23:30] it go to blood family or does it go to community all those things And not only the community, but other things. Yes, exactly. That's right. So it's really important. Exactly all those things that you're involved in and we need to We do need to think about it really carefully and may need to change it after five years, but yes, yes, it's It's absolutely right. [00:24:00] Mhm. Yeah, Well, um, sort of legacy you've got a you're gonna have lots of legacy with with with family. But we die. Whatever our religious or non beliefs or not, you know, we aren't gonna be physically here. Do we care about anything that happens after we go and about us? My caring or it's more a wish is about how I'm remembered. I don't know. Once I'm gone, I'm gone. [00:24:30] It's going to be up to the others, but yes, I'd like to be remembered as someone who made a difference and and helped. Um, yeah, politically help that kind of movement. Yeah, including bringing up. Um I mean, it helps of bringing up help bringing up two very good male. Yes. Well, that's right. That's political. It totally is. And that's why you know, I was very happy in the, um, seventies and eighties [00:25:00] to have daughters and to bring up strong, stroppy feminist women, which I have done. And that's great. And now the challenge for all of us is to bring up good, gentle, caring, fully rounded men. And, um so these two boys have got three aunts and a grandmother who are doing that for them. Or two aunts, a mother, a mother, two aunts and a grandmother. So they're very lucky boys. They presumably got some fathers as [00:25:30] well of some sort. Yes, of course, and very involved fathers and uncles. But it's it's just thinking about mothers as mothers have a role with sons, and I hate looking at it. And it's not about blaming mother and putting everything on Mother. But I look at many mothers, and I feel sad at what they've done to their sons, and they have done it. Yeah, and yeah, Father's [00:26:00] role is father's role, and And what? What do you say? That's interesting. What do you see mothers doing? I see mothers picking up after their sons cooking for their sons, not expecting their sons to look after themselves, not bringing up fully rounded self sufficient men. Yeah, so I want my grandsons to grow up, knowing how to cook and to clean a toilet and to see dirt and to remove it and to not expect someone else to pick up after them. And if they [00:26:30] take those values into the wider world, then they won't be involved with things that leave mess behind them on a minor manner, way or the major way of wars and in every way that's right. And I remember reading an article a new internationalist decades ago, and it really rang true. And it said if men had to do the washing and put it out and watch it get grey from the smog and the pollution and deal with that, they would see the world differently. And it's because they don't have to do [00:27:00] those things that they don't have to think about consequences. And if we all had to think about the consequences of our actions on other people, we would change the way we worked and the way we live, and that's to me. It's one of my worries is that a lot of women don't see them either these days, and not all women No, absolutely. And that's, you know, we talked about it as a male female divide. And it's not, um, but I still see even [00:27:30] even, you know, I see sons of my feminist and lesbian friends who still expect to be looked after and picked up after and that So that's the big one for me with the boys. Yeah, What happened? What else have we What haven't we talked about? What other things can we think about? We've covered a lot of ground and, um, last thoughts out of out of I suppose [00:28:00] it's It's about the thing of feeling comfortable when the of owning old and of saying yes, I am old and I'm thinking, When am I going to be happy to say that? You know, I can look at my dad and I think, Yeah, he's 90. He's a little bit frailer than he used to be. I guess he's old. I'm 61. I'm you know, I I'll I'll own to middle age now, Um, but the [00:28:30] the the process of ageing and all that that means and the limitations and the widening of options and possibilities. It's something about accepting, you know, where we are. It's a process. There's not an end point. It's a process. Yeah, and I I'm aware that my body doesn't do the things that used to do when I was young. But you can still I can still do pretty much everything. But you know, I don't If I lose fitness, I don't get it back so quickly. [00:29:00] I'm a bit stiffer when I get up in the mornings. You know all those kinds of things. Yes, I sit down on the grass and have my lunch. And when I stand up, it's, you know, So it changes. So it's, you know, working to stay as young as I can physically, but acknowledging that, yes, this process is happening. But on the other hand, one has perhaps a little bit more wisdom and some things that I think I think so. Yes, that's right. Those things are really good. Yeah, I do feel wiser. I feel more [00:29:30] tolerant. I feel this. I used to be quite angry a lot of the time about how things were, and I don't feel like that anymore. I feel more tolerant in a good way. Not in a bad way, you know? Yeah, Yeah, and can see things more. You know you're not. You understand? Yes, yes, The world is not as black and white as I used to think it was, and I feel more able. It's still an awful lot needs to be done. It's a lot. I feel [00:30:00] I got it. Yes, exactly, exactly. And that's one of the things that the world is so different now. And if I look back to when we were in our thirties and forties and how there was so much to be done and we worked so hard and we were so passionate about it and I see that it's faded a lot, you know? And I feel sad about that because those things, as you say, there's an awful lot that needs to be done and the younger generation at times one thinks they're not doing enough. At times, you realise that you can't speak to the younger generation, they they're doing it in different ways, [00:30:30] right? Exactly, and their issues are different and they have no idea what it was like and how it used to be. Their issues are different, but there are still issues from that time that we have both as lesbians and and, as you know, left wing people in this kind of society. Well, I think that's quite I think that covers an awful lot of ground. Thank you very much, Mark. Appreciate. It was I enjoyed it.

IRN: 572
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089268
TITLE: Paul Diamond - Creating Our Stories
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VOICES: Paul Diamond
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Māori; Paul Diamond; Wellington; archives; gay; legacy; military; oral history; profile; research
DATE: 29 May 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I, um, got a background as an accountant initially. But then I worked, um, worked as an accountant for about seven years, but also worked as a journalist after that. And then that really lead into the oral history sort of work I've done. I've worked in radio and did long form features, documentaries. So sort of did interviews that were sort of like oral history. And so I started meeting oral historians and things. Um, I ran an oral history project on the Vietnam War, [00:00:30] and, um, that was also linked in with a project of my own interviewing 10 Maori men who served in Vietnam now, as part of the big Vietnam Project, I did interview a couple of, um, soldiers who who were gay, Um, who served in Vietnam. Um, terms of specifically queer gay things. I you know, I've done some research interviews for sort of gay history projects I've been working on, but, um, sort [00:01:00] of got, you know, sort of general oral history experience, and I've done the odd, um, sort of, um, biographical interview of of people. So why oral history? What is the benefit of doing oral history? Um, Judith Fife, who's sort of trained a lot of people and has mentored a lot of people, talks about the orality of the voice, and, um, it's a phrase that's really stuck with me. It's It's I think you do this sort of work because you like listening to the [00:01:30] voice. And I know people say to me, Oh, why don't you take a video recorder? You know, and there is something about seeing faces and things, but But I think once you get hooked by this idea of the voice, the orality of the voice, then you you kind of are hooked, and it's perhaps because of my radio background. I have done a little bit of television work, but I didn't find that came naturally to me. Um, and when I met some people at the Imperial War Museum, they sort of talked about the difference between video and sound. You know, if you listen to the [00:02:00] woman talking about the war, what it was like being a small child in the war, then you're sort of there with her and she's a small child. But if you see the video, then she's a woman in her eighties, and I think That's part of what the difference is. It's it's It's about why people like, um being involved with radio, they talk about sound pictures. Something similar is going on with oral history. It's also the chance to, um, I'm interested in accents and and language how language changes. So it's great for that because that's what you're focusing on. You're focusing on the the content [00:02:30] of the voice, and it makes you focus on things like, um, pauses, silence and yeah, and And the way, the way people say things. So So that's that's That's for me what's sort of attractive about this and and and it's a historical source, too. And I think it's exciting the way it's kind of much more taken much more seriously as a credible source of, um, of information. [00:03:00] So I mean that and I don't read. I think it's a it's a It's a form of history that copes well with ambiguity and and the way we all construct our stories. I think it it's hard to explain, but I think it's it's it can cope with that quite well. And it's not like documents are neutral, unbiased, completely reliable all the time. sources, either. So how do you deal with, um, I suppose personal truths [00:03:30] or or how people perceive events. Well, there are kind of basic sort of historical things you can do. I mean, um, you know, good. Good research, Um, techniques, I suppose. Like, do as much research as you can about whatever it is you're asking people about, um, and and then you've got the chance to sort of cross check and corroborate. Um, but it's not your role to point out. Oh, I think that's wrong. I. I think it's about it's your job as an oral historian [00:04:00] to ask, um, about the context. So if you do strike something that seems a bit odd, you know it it's I think it's OK to say So where did you hear that? And, um, and you know who else told you that or or has that been recorded or, you know, without being rude? Um, you know, there's all those basic sort of ethical principles, like, um, ask yourself if you'd be comfortable answering something, um, [00:04:30] that you're asking someone and that applies in any oral history interview. So those sort of good practises, But But I think It's about, um, gathering that context because another thing that Judith Fife says is that these interviews are for people. They're as much for people in 100 years as they are for the for us now. I think perhaps because of digital technology and things and the way interviews are so much more easily disseminated and available now, there's this pressure to sort of understand it all. But we need to keep reminding ourselves that we don't use [00:05:00] tapes anymore, and it's it's a lot easier to get this material out there, but we, we we won't understand it. And that's part of actually I mean inconsistencies and and and errors might become apparent 50 years down the track as much as 50 days down the track. So you just have to try and do as good a job as you can through research and and the techniques of interviewing at the time you're at now. But I but I think generally [00:05:30] it copes pretty well with that sort of ambiguity and the fact that we are all constructing our own narratives and I guess acknowledging in the oral history where you know information from where when somebody is telling you something that they actually, I identify if it's like a first hand account or they read it in a newspaper or they were told by their mother, Yeah, yeah, I think it's good to, um, to ask about those sources. I mean, another thing that that people have told me along the way is [00:06:00] it's not really There's not really much point in an oral history getting someone to cover some things that are already published. So that's sort of related to that, too, That that what we I think what it's what it's good at is capturing personal experience. Um, so that's something worth bearing in mind as well. Um, sometimes people might, you know, That's why you know, someone reading from a script or reading from a history, you know? Well, I mean, I wouldn't say that you never [00:06:30] want to do that, but But generally, that's not the sort of thing you're looking for in an oral history. You're looking for things that that really can't be captured any other way. What did it? What did it feel like? What did it sound like? What did it look like? That sort of personal experience and that sits alongside other archival sources and things and secondary sources, and it adds to the richness of the history. So is there much training available in New Zealand for oral historians? Well, [00:07:00] the the basic, you know, the the basic, the the most common. I mean, the main source of training is in oral history in New Zealand is the, um, courses run by what used to be called the Oral History Centre at the Alexander Turnbull Library. But it's just that the Alexander Turnbull Library really the outreach part. Those are offered in Wellington. Um, there is training, uh, offer being offered in Auckland. I mean, and things sort of emerge from time to time. I mean, there might be a little bit of training happening [00:07:30] in the universities, but those are the main sort of courses that I know of. Um, it's worth looking at the website for the Oral History Association in New Zealand. No hands just to because they try and maintain, um, sort of, uh, lists of resources and stuff, which can help people if they're, um, planning in our history or wanting to do training. And if you were gonna ask me about quest specific resources. I don't know. Um, there probably are things overseas, and And it would be worth [00:08:00] looking at that, because overseas, there are a bigger sort of queer history. Um uh, areas of work. So I would sort of look at things like some of the major collections, museums, um, universities. There are things here like, um Chris Brickle, who's a, um I mean, what I would think of here is kind of, you know, who are the practitioners who who are doing queer history and Chris Brickle, Um, which is, um BR IC KE Double L is a [00:08:30] He's in the, uh, uh, gender studies. He's a sociologist in the gender studies department at the University of Otago. He's done a lot of queer history. He's done oral histories and he's written articles, um, about queer history. Um, like he's done one on archival sources. So it's quite useful. Um, they're all sort of things that probably people should be aware of if they are thinking about doing queer history. I think because that's really some of the most significant recent scholarship. But he's not the only one. There are [00:09:00] other other people. He's one of the main ones, though, but, um, And then through that, you probably could find some other references and resources. But But I know you know his work. His work uses oral history, which is interesting as well. But but also, just depending on what your topic is you you should sort of be aware, Be familiar with the scholarship. Um, before you launch out and and go and interview someone, a group or a topic. So with the topics that you have done, have you, [00:09:30] um, chosen topics yourself or have the things that you've been involved in? Have they been like larger projects that you've kind of slotted into, um, in terms of queer queer stuff? Um, I guess it's that that Vietnam one was that just emerged as part of a bigger project. That's That's a project with hundreds of interviews with Vietnam veterans done by a team of interviewers around the country. Um, and I guess it was because of being queer that I got asked to help with [00:10:00] those, and I was really keen. Keen to help with those. Um, I don't know that I've really initiated my I've written bits and pieces about queer history, but I don't know that I've actually initiated my own projects at this stage, but, you know, even if it's a topic, one of the things you get taught in the training is that whether you're doing, I mean, oral history interviews are generally either a life history or a topic based interview. But even topic based ones should have life history. And that's something [00:10:30] I agree with, Um, and it applies to queer topics just like anything else. So why is that? It just means that the interview is more useful, Um, longer term. So even if you're asking about, um, the Spartacus Club in in the seventies, you you should ask people, you know, where they grew up a bit about their background. Um, you know who their who? Their family, where their family come from. Um, just basic things like, you know, politics, religion [00:11:00] just I mean, as far as you want to go. But but I think it's good to sort of lay a bit of groundwork, because often those, um, the answers to those questions can help you in ways quite surprising ways, actually. Well, you know, for queer topics, having an idea of someone's religious background may well be helpful. And even if there's no religion, that's interesting as well in, um, in New Zealand, depending on the sort of generation that the person is, it would be less unusual now [00:11:30] if you're talking to a young person. But you know, someone who was who was elderly to If they said that, that would be sort of interesting because that would be, um, unusual in that generation. So, yeah, I'm a firm, believe. And I've learned that from working, um, or watching how other oral historians more experienced than me work. Yeah, but I think that's just there are There are things. It's a bit like journalism, you know, there's there's just good practises that that that whatever your topic you should be thinking about, [00:12:00] do you think that the interviewer influences the interview? I'm thinking that, you know, do you have a, um, a gay man interviewing a gay man? And would that be different from, say, a woman interviewing a gay man? What you want? Yes. Yes, the interviewer does, but what you want is a good interviewer. And there's no guarantee that just because you're a gay man that you will be a good interviewer to interview another gay man. What interviews depend on is rapport. I think, [00:12:30] um, you have You have to establish a relationship, and the quality of that relationship will determine how the interview goes. And and I think skilled interviewers just do what they can to do that, and part of it I've learned, is that you just have to accept that that who you are and your background and how you're perceived is going to influence the relationship. So that means, um and I think you just have to accept [00:13:00] that and go with it. You don't have to, you know, don't try and make yourself into something you're not. And and it's just about being upfront with people as well. So in the Vietnam interviews, the fact that I was too young to have protested that I was part Maori and that I was a man and perhaps to a lesser extent that I was gay would have affected the the dynamics of the interviews, but had colleagues who were younger than me and we're women and and and I know just just it was This is anecdotal, [00:13:30] but just talking it we we sort of reflected and thought that, you know, our backgrounds and who we were really was affecting the dynamics and and that sort of environment that's you know, when you're dealing with former military people, you're dealing with a lot of men. Um, but I would say gay gay things. And actually, I know this from experience. Just because you're gay doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna You're gonna be the right person. And if you're another gay person, um, oral history is dominated in New Zealand by older middle class, middle aged women. But you know who do a damn good [00:14:00] job? Um, because they're good interviewers, and it's basic things like being able to listen. Being a good listener is really one of the biggest things. And if you haven't got that, then no matter who you are, you're gonna struggle and, um, and people will struggle to, to feel comfortable with you and talk to you. So no, I wouldn't. But at the same time, if if you well, perhaps it's analogous to Maori. You know the world. Just because you're a Maori doesn't mean you will be the right person to interview [00:14:30] another Maori person. But there is probably a a likelihood that you may understand some of the language and things, and you could say the same thing for for gay people as well. But, you know, I found, um there are big generational differences. Uh, between I mean gaming. So I would I would think there are other things that are more important, but I really do agree that that your background influences the interview, but that's not a bad thing. I think it's just about being conscious of it that that's going on. [00:15:00] And I guess also the kind of question lines that you develop and the way that you even think. Yeah, well, research research is really important. I think, um, I maybe do too much of that sometimes, or I get a bit bogged down in it because I, I do enjoy that part of it. Um, you have to think laterally about researching for queer things, because the the research that you need may not necessarily be in obvious places. And that's why places like LA are [00:15:30] really important. So we're lucky that that's there. Um, so certainly you should always think of places like that. Um, you know, any specific, like I mentioned Chris Prickles sort of scholarship journal articles. Whatever you can that relates to the top and do as much as you can. Will will really, really help. Um, in the in the interview that you do. I don't I don't so much plot out my questions. Uh, I sort of have them as a checklist, Really. But But I do think through how am I going to [00:16:00] approach this? And the classic way you do it in our history is chronological. So where were you born? You know, tell me about your family background. You sort of move through it. Um, but there there are loads of other ways of, um, constructing it depends what? You're what you're doing. Uh, you know what the what? The what the project plan is. But, um, I think, yeah, it's If that's clear, then that kind of guides you. But you do. You do need to. It's a structured conversation, and and you don't have unlimited time. And [00:16:30] maybe because I've got a journalism background that you kind of think of, You know, that trains you in the news. Journalism trains you in that pyramid of news. So what's most important that should be in the first line. It's a bit like that with an interview thinking, Well, if I only had an hour, what would I What would I really need to talk about? What's really important to to cover. And also we might talk about this more. You know, in people's energy, your energy, their energy, it's not. It's finite. So that's another reason why you should prioritise. So it's it's It's [00:17:00] a lot of its judgement, actually about, you know, when is it appropriate to? Sometimes people might go off on a discursive thing that may or may not be relevant, but you've sort of got to bring it in. I think it's You've always got to have a sense of the sort of the the thread of the conversation and where you're taking someone, which is hard because it's exploratory because you're doing the interview because you want to know stuff. But but I think you do have to have a bit of a plan so that they feel like you're in control, not [00:17:30] not controlling, but but kind of giving them a bit of, um, guidance because it's a bit, um, it's a bit scary, really. for people to be interviewed. I. I imagine that that for most people, they would never have done a a four or five hour interview about themselves before or about a topic. I mean that there is quite a lot of skill, and I'm not saying I'm in great shakes. It's I still feel like a beginner. But there is a There is a huge amount of skill in doing that. And And when you listen to people [00:18:00] who are really good interviewers doing it, um, yeah, and part of that is that's how you manage to do that and and at the end of it, you know, end up, end up covering a good range of a good range of things. Now, even in the time that we've been talking, um, your chair has been squeaking. I've been noticing it because it's quite a quiet environment in here, and I'm wondering when you're on location or even choosing locations for an oral history. Have you any thoughts about you know, what are the best things to look for? One [00:18:30] of the principles that I've been told and I really agree with is that you know, it's important to make um, to do these interviews in a way where you make the people being interviewed feel comfortable. So that often means, um, you might want to do the interview in their home. Um, it may not mean that sometimes people don't want that. You just have to be guided guided by them. What you want is technically sound of the quality that you want If it's in someone's home, you know, you you have to, [00:19:00] um, you you may or may not be able to control things that are going on. It's good practise in our history to do a preinterview meeting, So that's a preliminary meeting a few days before the interview, and that's where you talk about the recording agreement form. You talk about the project that you're doing? Uh, it might be the first time you've ever met the person. You might just have talked to them on the phone or written to them. It's a chance to ask about letters Uh, di, uh, photos and, um, so that they can be thinking about that or tracking them down then or [00:19:30] before you next meet, um, and filling in a biographical information form, which is much easier to fill out when you're not on tape, and and they might have to go and look at a family history to work out dates and things. And as part of that, you can sort of have a look around and and work out where you might suggest that an interview be done. Um, it might be, you know, in their armchair. And so if you've got lapel mics, technically, that can be easier to manage that, Um, but if but I've been known to, um, turn fridges [00:20:00] off, take clocks out of rooms, you know, you've got to be polite and and just see if you can see you either can say, Well, you know, um, we could move. Or can we do something to that sound? If you turn a fridge off, remember to turn it back on. Um, that's it. It's awful driving away and then suddenly remembering that someone's freezer might be still turned off. Um, because this the modern gear we're using is so sophisticated and and tummy rumbles come out now. So you know, it's about wanting people [00:20:30] to sound good, and you can, you know, pop your headphones on them and show them uh, because I think people are surprised if they haven't used a digital recorder, how good the sound quality is. But, um, and that's why you should be monitoring your sound. I know oral historians who monitor the sound the whole interview. I don't I just do some little tests every now and again. Put the headphones on and just check, and it's amazing what you're hearing. If you're in an office building, you'll probably have air conditioning. Um, which is can be really loud. Um, that's [00:21:00] not usually a problem. You know, cicadas. If it's in summer. I mean, you don't need to be ridiculous about it. I mean, it's it's atmosphere. It's telling you where the interview's happening. But if it's going to distract the, um, listener, then it's bad and that that really does need to be, um, sorted out. But it's just about, um, again part of your technical skills and confidence. And, you know, I learned that at radio. Is that the more comfortable you are with your gear, the better the interview will be because [00:21:30] it's it'll make the person feel comfortable. And, oh, this person knows what they're doing. And it also allows you to focus on the content, which is the most important thing. You don't want to be worrying about your gear, so you've got to whatever equipment you're using. If you if it's your own or you're renting it or buying it, borrowing it, you've really got to know it backwards. And you will always do a better interview if you do that. So there's all these sort of basic bread and butter kind of things that help you. Um, whatever your topic, but certainly for [00:22:00] queer queer history you mentioned before about photographs and why a photograph is so important. It's just a sort of a habit that, um, the repositories, like the Alexander Turnbull Library, have sort of got us into, um, to as part of documenting the interview, uh, you might with the person's permission, you know, take a photo of them. Um, now and with digital cameras, that's again so easy now and then, um, if you're doing an interview about the Vietnam War, well, it was nice to ask a person. Well, [00:22:30] have you got a photo of yourself in the sixties or the seventies when you were in Vietnam? Um, and then that is scanned. And then, um, you you send that to the Include that with the interview as part of the material that you deposit. Um, that's sort of the extent of it. Really? I haven't, uh I've just sort of followed that. That practise. Uh, but again, that's because I was sort of doing war war interviews and they sort of, um that's the sort of model that the Ministry for Culture and Heritage and and Turnbull [00:23:00] have sort of followed. But I think it's a nice a nice thing to do. And perhaps it's kind of, you know, making making up for that, Not having the the video image of the person I think it is, it is good, and they're actually very useful if you're thinking about again with the person's permission, um, using, um, the excerpts of an interview in a presentation or an exhibition or something. And again, that's that's always worth thinking through, I suppose, um, I, I guess [00:23:30] I mean often the most important thing about the oral history is is it for its own sake? But I guess you have to always acknowledge that there is the potential that it could go on to the Internet. It could be used in an exhibition. It could be used, Um, you know, in a book. Um, and not just by you. Which is why the whole recording agreement form is really, really important to document the wishes of the interviewee, I guess one of the things with photographs as well is that they can be, uh, memory triggers, Yes. And And [00:24:00] I guess, diaries and letters. And that photos, photos more. So in my experience. And that was again, another little technique that we used in the Vietnam Project was, um you know, I, uh, Chris Pugsley told me this, actually, when I went to see him at Sandhurst military college because he'd done a lot of oral histories with military people and he said, you know, get a get a photo of a section, get a photo of a a platoon, get a photo of, um, the one above that, uh, you know, a company, Um, [00:24:30] And just say, you know who were the hard case guys. You know who was. And it was a great piece of advice, actually. So, you know, you're doing a, uh, oral history project about the la LA in the eighties. Find a photo? Yeah. Use photos, photos and newsletters or something as triggers. What's you know, What was that event and what's happening there? You know, I think they're they're worth, um, worth bearing in mind. Yeah, as as little triggers. And it's all part [00:25:00] of your research. When you do the preinterview, you have to remember to, um, stop people launching into their stories and, um, really politely. But, um and because another one of the things that the oral historians say to you, you know, the stories are never as good the second time, because you and if you and I've learned this from experience too, you know, you you hear the story, and then the next day you say and and you and tell me that story about and oh, I've told you that or or it's never as good. So, um, these little [00:25:30] tips to to, you know, avoid having to learn these lessons. But But it it, um So you really just have to restrict that preliminary meeting to, you know, the bio form the agreement form. Um, and that's why the meeting is not a long meeting. Uh, and that's, you know it's not going to take this long. And and that's why you know, just explaining what the interview will involve. Generally, what you're going to talk about, Um, so that they feel comfortable and don't feel like you're throwing anything, Sort of, um, that they're not prepared for. I don't give people [00:26:00] questions. That's kind of a habit I've got from journalism. I've I've never done that. I might give people sort of, you know, in an email that might be, um, broad topic headings, areas. And that's generally what I'll do because I don't actually. Well, I do sort of write the questions out, but they're more checklist because I think if you're immersed in your research, you really you just go through it, really. And then you might have these as a checklist or what haven't I asked about that sort of thing? And [00:26:30] if you're, um yeah, and as part of your research, you've got to be alert to, um, the terminology differences, and that's one of the That would be one of the things that you've really got to, um, be alert to. I think for queer history is the terminology, because it's changing all the time, you know, because gay in 2011, 2012 means something very different to what it did when I was growing up. Um, because I would say I [00:27:00] was I was using that phrase when I was interviewing a veteran, and he just said to me that that because when we were talking about the past and he said that didn't mean anything to me. He knew what I was talking about. But he said, we we use the word homosexual and so it was great that he told me, but I should have sort of thought of that. But that's, um But it's also worth checking or, you know of other words. You know, um and, [00:27:30] you know, and in interviewing there are open and closed questions and open questions are generally really good to use in in our history. But there will be times when you you need to ask a closed question, and you just have to judge what's appropriate. But an open question might be, you know, what were the what were the other words that people used when you were growing up? You know, sissy, pansy, faggot, all that stuff. But did you ever and then a closed question might be. But did you ever hear a shirt lifter or something? There might be a particular word, you know, that you [00:28:00] that they haven't mentioned. So sometimes you need to check, you know, So a closed question would kind of a yes, no answer. Did you ever hear that word being used? Um, so you It's not that you ever just use one or the other in our history. You need to use both, But you need to be aware of what they both do. And another general thing that I think is really important to bear in mind is is the danger with closed question? Well, it's not really a closed question. It's more of a leading question, a loaded [00:28:30] question that must have been terrible for you. If they tell you something and if it wasn't terrible, well, then they're really going to feel shy about saying it wasn't terrible. If you've said that. So how How was that for you, or or what effect did that have on you? You've got to try and be neutral because you can really see that's more important to be aware of than you know as a gay man, the best person to be another gay man. I think it's knowing these things that are going on. It's, um it's [00:29:00] quite a It takes a lot of mental energy doing these sorts of interviews because you have to think like that, you know, be be very conscious of, um, and asking some of these other questions to unpack things that that perhaps might be behind, um, ambiguity or or things that might be wrong, but again, trying to unpack some of the context. And so you, you, you It's like a sort of a toolkit. And you're having to be grabbing all of these sort of techniques in a limited space of time with finite [00:29:30] stores of energy. So you see, it's quite a mental sprint in some ways. So so in an interview situation, how long would you record for? Yeah, we used to talk about this at the ministry. You know, how long is an interview? Well, an interview is as long as it needs to be, and but you're actually bounded by the energy of the person you're interviewing and your energy because and you need to you know, you need to look after yourself when you go and do you need to have breakfast? You need to Don't try not to be tired, because it's a real, [00:30:00] um, mental marathon. Really, it is a sprint, but it's also a marathon as well. So you you have to be sensitive to to where the person's at and, um, check, you know, check in with them. Um, sometimes I find I need breaks more than they do. Sometimes, you know, you you can't generalise. Sometimes older people will be fine, but, um, you can't really go. I mean, what have I done? I mean, seven. I mean, that's ridiculous. I think I did do seven [00:30:30] in one day. But, you know, you usually be stopping for lunch and things, and you might might carry on it. If the circumstances say you're in the same town as someone you want to talk to, you might be able to go back. What one oral historian said to me was that, um the risk, the thing you've got to watch out for in that is repetition. So you might find that the same parts of the stories, um, come up again and that which would be understandable. Um, so you've really got to and that you've [00:31:00] got to know what you're covered the first time. I. I haven't really done too many of those interviews because I've often been travelling, and that's been my one chance. So to be sort of, you know, arrive in the morning like a start. Do what we can do. Stop for lunch. Um, keep going. Stop for a morning afternoon tea and then, you know, So you're looking at sort of 55 hours, maybe. And, um and that's pretty good going, you know? So how long would you record before you took a break? Um, [00:31:30] I use a sound device recorder, which is a digital recorder, and that has various settings. So that you can I think I used to have it set so that you could break. Um, it it just made a break so that you didn't end up with files that were too big, but I I found that a pain because, um, you end up with these odd breaks so which aren't necessarily meaningful. So now what I try and do is try and sort of discipline myself to sort of pause if around around about an hour [00:32:00] because that's quite a lot of, um, digital material. If you're recording at the high Standard that you should be for archival purposes, Um, so sometimes I just say, and you you sort of judge it if you're sort of at the end of a If the person is at the end of an explanation and you sort of, you know, know where you're at in your question lines, perhaps to say, Oh, look, let's just take a pause now. And it's also quite good to do that and stop so that you're not cutting in on their what they're saying. And it's all about this being [00:32:30] comfortable and being in control so that you're not, um and then just, you know, say right, you know, go to the toilet, have a have a cup of tea or or are you right to go right back on? You know, um, because I just think it can be a bit hard to handle, uh, the audio and and I mean but But now you see, in the old days with tapes, people were stopping every 30 or 45 minutes. I suppose it was typically 30. I think with the tape. So, you know, oral historians [00:33:00] who are used to that they probably would be used to the half hour. So you were at least, you know, flipping the tape over. I think an hour is reasonable to sort of pause, um, for both of you, just to just check you both how you're both going and things. So, in the oral histories for the Vietnam vets, how did the kind of gay content come out in your interviews? Was it a big part or they They both knew that that was why we were interested in talking to them. So So that was good. Um, to [00:33:30] be honest, I find asking people about sex quite difficult. Um, that's and and really, you know, things like that. They're tricky things to ask about, because you just don't quite know how people are going to react. Um, I mean, generally, I think people historically know that things like VD are are an issue with soldiers. But, you know, I did have, um, not in these gay interviews, but other cases [00:34:00] where, um, you know, some people did react badly because of it reflecting badly on the on the soldiers uh, that was a woman, actually who who worked with the soldiers But I. I mean, I heard recently about a ward in a military hospital, and it must have been in Vietnam where where the men were anonymous, they were anonymized. So you sort of, you know, you got to remember there's a different, different sort of sort of context. But [00:34:30] in terms of those gay interviews, how did it sort of emerge? Well, well, that's why life history is important, because you can then get a sense of, you know, people's growing up, going to school, getting a job, eventually finding their way into the military also, you know, when did you come out as part of that? So you've you've got you've got that sort of base understanding of, um, how they saw themselves sexually, um, quite apart from their military sort of career or the topic that you're [00:35:00] you're also so but so I'd expect it to sort of emerge there. You know, they may have been married or, you know, but then it would also emerge in the, um and you have to. That's why I think you're always thinking about life, history and and topics. Um, it's interesting because I remember hearing an oral history, not part of your project. But where the oral historian asked, uh, did you ever marry? And the chap said no. And then she just moved on, [00:35:30] and it was almost like she didn't want to go down that path. Yeah, it's tricky. It's tricky because I suppose you're you might be worried about prying. I'm just trying to think. What would I say then? Uh, I guess I might come at it, try and come at it a bit laterally. Like what? Well, you know So too much else on again. It's that thing of, you know, how would I feel about being asked about or or maybe [00:36:00] even asking the question. Was that unusual in your generation or or or the question being, um, did did you have any significant partners in your life rather than saying That's right, This is a heterosexual marriage type thing. That's right, relationships, because it might have been a straight person who just chose not to marry. Yeah, I think I think you should, um, you should sort of probe that a wee bit respectfully, Um, but it's It's [00:36:30] tricky. They're tricky things to ask about because And that's why I said, rapport is really important because the better a rapport you have. And the more the person trusts you, the the the more confident you can be about going in those places, and you, you might get to places where people just don't want to go. So that's fine. And also, one of the big principles in all of this is, Is you never? No one's research is more important than someone's well-being and health. So you know, [00:37:00] we never we never want to interview, uh, to ask things that will make people feel, you know, hurt people or bring up things. And that's that's that will very much be a AAA risk with these. You know, we knew with the Vietnam interviews that, you know, there might be trauma associated with that and and you could well strike that with queer interviews as well. Because for some people, that may be, you know, really difficult asking them about this sort of top. These sort of topics might, um, [00:37:30] reconnect them with really difficult bits of their past. Or maybe not. You just don't know, but you just need to be prepared, and in fact, it can happen in any interview. You know, um, where people might, you know, burst into tears or or yeah, you. And it's often you can't say this question will always be a problem. But in terms of the the six stuff, uh, yeah, it's it's interesting. And one [00:38:00] of the interviews I did for Vietnam, you know, um, one of the soldiers talked about a particular incident. Where, where? Um, So this is before the soldier had really had relationships with men, I think. But, um, in New Zealand and one of the one of the camps where people were training before they went to Vietnam, you know, there was a public sort of ceremony where two men who'd been sort of found together doing [00:38:30] something or other had been, um, where ceremonially had their uniform their, you know, rank and things taken off their uniforms and were loaded into a truck and sent away. Now that that was a really powerful um, for the person I spoke to, it was a really powerful, um, deterrent. And, um and I he gave me enough information actually to try and trace that through. And I've never. I haven't done that. But But it would be interesting to do that to see if there was corresponding discipline reports and things, [00:39:00] because that was very, um, the fact that it was done so publicly. Um, because when I did ask people about this and and this is in, you know, in that generation of the army, some people said, Oh, no, you know, not at all. But But even this person actually had no idea till later that other men were having sex with men. Um, until much later. And in fact, he said it was a bit of a, you know, bit of a pain to not have known that then. [00:39:30] And I think it was different if you were having sex with someone from another country or another army than having sex with someone in the In your own army. I guess that I think that was that was different as well. But this this incident was very powerful. Um, and I and I think that's hugely significant. So that was that came out because the person I interviewed knew that was why we were interested in talking to him and and he was, and I would guess he was comfortable [00:40:00] talking about it because I'm gay. Uh, but II I wouldn't have I wouldn't have had, you know, I. I still think it's about being open and honest about why it is you're approaching. It wasn't like we sprung this on people, but what I would sort of try and do is in the other interviews, I guess I didn't always do this, but I But I did try and cover it. You know, um, so, you know, [00:40:30] going out to the prostitutes, the bars and the steam rooms and stuff, But But along with that, you know, were people having sex with each other. But it's but it's tricky. That event kind of unpacking it. Is it really important, Say, in an oral history where you want to try and take away the ambiguity so that you actually do have something in 100 years time where somebody can go. Ah, that was the event. That's the person. Well, I think that's the skill of you [00:41:00] talking about that incident. That public incident. Yeah. And I think you have to really think on your feet and think, you know, ask everything you can about that. And especially if you're what you're gonna try and provide a basis for someone to put this alongside some other historical sources, like newspaper reports or archival records. More likely. Um, So when was this, Um who do you remember being there? What happened? Um, you [00:41:30] know, did you see it or did you hear about this? And and, um, you know what? What? What do you really remember? You know why? Why have you remembered that all? And what effect did that have on you? I mean, just really, um, that's a key. That's a key incident that you've really got to, um, probe and and and try and come at it from different things. Different questions will will work differently because all of us, you know, [00:42:00] someone at work asked me about reminded me of me visiting the library to ask about something and a couple. It was only five years ago, and I couldn't remember it. But when she prompt prompted me, I could. But memory is a funny thing. And, um, I think part of the again part of this little tool kit is to ask the different questions and and different things will trigger. And that's why the photos are good, because we will respond differently to different things and and different things might sort of prompt different responses. [00:42:30] But that's yeah, that's that's a notable. That was a That was a notable thing. But that's, um if you're doing sort of queer history, those things you know should set off an alarm bell for you to to take notice of. And it's it's actually something you can come back to, too, you know, because you might think about that and think, Oh, I should have asked, You know, because you'll be processing it, too. So there's always the chance to to come back. So are you taking notes as you interview? I do. [00:43:00] I tend to. I sort of have this outline and I they'll say things often and I and I'll just make a note to stop myself, Um, forgetting it. It's a it's a sort of a in radio. You you you sort of learn to, you know, ask a question and have the next question in your head. Really? And that probably doesn't hurt in oral history either. But, um yeah, in both those types of interviews, you you're writing stuff down that, you know, they'll be saying something that you want. You you want [00:43:30] to let them finish what they're saying? But there's something that they've reminded you of that you need to follow up or they've mentioned a name. Who Who's that you just mentioned, you know, or or a word? All sorts of things. Yeah. So you're constantly kind of building what they say into the, um the the plan, the question lines and things. Before we started this interview, I actually sent you a question line. Yes, you do. And you have noted on it, and I'm just wondering, [00:44:00] are there things that we haven't talked about that you would like to cover? Well, you you you asked about verbally identifying your files. This is something that you get trained to do. So you should, as you did, ID, um, where you are, the date and time and things. Get the person to introduce himself or say their name on the tape. Um, some recorders have the facility to label to create the names, which is handy. So I do that on my recorder, which lets me do it so I always have a system [00:44:30] for the the person's name. In fact, it has got a limited number of characters, so you know it'll be G. What can it might not get to S, you know, but But at least that's enough for me, and it'll just be 1234567 So that's a godsend. It means, you know, um, you know, you know what that project was, But you also should do the I DS on that if you're interviewing groups which I don't have a lot of experience doing classical oral history is, um, is is is one on one. But, you know, particularly for, [00:45:00] uh, Maori say some ethnic, you know, it might be ethnic cultural reasons why you might interview people together that could well happen with, um, queer interviews you might have, um, you might be interviewing a couple. I haven't done that so much, But what I would do is, I think, in that it's really important to get people to introduce themselves, and especially if you had a big group, which again would be sort of unusual in our history. But But you might have that, because if you're going to be trans or you or someone's going to be transcribing this or [00:45:30] or abstracting it, Um, it's much easier for them if they can have a way of tuning in. Oh, that's Frank. OK, that's Joe Bloggs. That's especially with a bunch of men, say, or a bunch of women. To be able to differentiate the voices would be quite important as part of your training. It's good to know about abstracting, which is a, um, it's a guide for researchers, and it's a, um, time code summary of the interview that pulls out, um, details like names of gay clubs, names [00:46:00] of people, names of places, you know, any sort of, um, details, facts that a researcher might be interested in, and you sort of group things by topic. Childhood at 10 Minutes 30 discusses school, school. You know all that stuff, and, um, it's a summary. It's not a transcript. A trans in New Zealand, we tend to not do transcripts of whole interviews because they become unwieldy really quickly and and and you can't really see your way through an interview. And also, [00:46:30] um, when you transcribe your editing, so do I put in the paws. Do I put in the arm. You you're making decisions about how to represent that speech on the page. You sort of are with an abstract as well, I suppose. But But abstracts, I think, are a bit easier to. You're not making such a difficult judgement. Call about about editing the the because whenever you transcribe on the page, it's an approximation. Whereas the whole principle of an abstract is to get you back to the recording, it's to make the researcher listen [00:47:00] to the recording so you're not putting it all down, Um, and so often, when you give people an abstract to check, they go. You've missed this. This things left out. But you have to explain to them that it's just a summary, and it's just to help the, um, the interview. And typically what you're asking them to check for is, um, spellings of names and stuff. And they'll be often things people mention that are a bit unclear to you that you should clarify during the interview. But if you didn't, that's the time to do it. It's good practise to, um, get people to spell out odd, uh, unfamiliar names so that the abstractor, [00:47:30] if it's not you can can, um or I mean, you may not know yourself. Um, just little sort of little techniques like that. Um, I think it's really good to have a clear sense of your project. Um, which is why the research is really important, because the better the clearer. Of course it is exploratory because that's why you're doing the interviews. But but, you know, perhaps a research question, Um, you know what weather? [00:48:00] What were the events that led to the establishment of the lesbian library or something? You know, that's that's a starting point. And then your project plan sort of follows that. I think it's good to have that that can change. And it can be dynamic, but that can let you give, um, people information when you ask them if they wanted to do an interview, you could do a little, um, explant thing, which can be useful to, um, because you know you can send that to them. You can give it to them at the preview you can, and it's really important [00:48:30] to be comfortable with the agreement form, which is where you get people to specify. Um, what sort of restrictions on access there should be, and also where it's going to be kept. So you might, um I mean, I tend to work with the Alexander Turnbull Library because that's got an oral history collection there, and they've got the facility to manage oral history, which you know has its own. You need specialist skills to manage that, especially with, um, digital digital technology. But that's not the only repository. I think it's just about, [00:49:00] um, encouraging people to deposit it somewhere where it can be managed and the access can be controlled. And and I mean, it's It's good practise, of course, to give the person a copy of the interview as well. But, um, and it's up to them what happens to it. But But if there are restrictions and things, then the repository repositories like the Turnbull will manage that and, um, and, you know, restrict access or or let people have access, depending on what people have specified. [00:49:30] Yeah, in terms of working out who to talk to. Another thing that Judith told me is that you can I remember talking to Judith about you know, particular how we should approach the Vietnam interviews. You know, should, um you know, there are. There have been research projects where they've tried to get, you know, someone from every unit, someone from every rank and and And Judith said, Well, it could be good to just do the medical team and just do a really in depth sample of that, you know, that that would [00:50:00] be valuable. And and she's right. So keep always keep that in mind. It's not necessarily. You don't have to try and do, um, sometimes you might want to do a broad sample. Um, what might you be looking at? You know, I don't know gay men talking about their schooling or something, and you might want to try and do a very broad some, or you might just want to go narrow, so don't feel restricted, but, um, And in terms of how to contact people, I guess you just have to [00:50:30] use your, um, your networks. It must be getting easier, I guess. Like you could advertise in the listener for this now, but you wouldn't have been able to do that a few years ago. But, um, you know, just be again, thinking naturally, but also thinking about who you're likely to find in the various ways you might be trying to reach people and it. Yeah, and it might be a case of having to use particular techniques of reaching people. Um, if you're finding that there are, you know you're not [00:51:00] getting a particular group, why can I find those? Some are men in their forties, you know, I might have to if you want, if that's part of the group you want to be talking to. But that's again. That's just good oral history. Practise about, um, just thinking laterally about how to how to contact people. You know, the ministry. They used to, um, get people to do questionnaires and then, on the basis of that work out who to interview. And I was always a bit wary of that I. I guess you had to have a way of, um, selecting people, and they were also dealing with bigger [00:51:30] responses. But it always worried me that, you know, you might miss someone who'd be a terrific interview, but just wasn't that good at putting their thoughts down on paper. And also, just because you're good at writing your thoughts down on paper may not mean you're that good at talking about it, but it's horses for courses that they're different sorts of projects. And I guess also, when you are advertising for interviewees actually questioning, why does this person want to be interviewed? Actually, that what is the motivation for this rather than it must [00:52:00] be quite different if rather than you approaching somebody, actually them responding to an advert. I hadn't thought of that. And journalism. They always used to say to you, You know, everyone always talks to you for a reason. Um, it's not just to help out the news room, you know, I guess oral history is a bit like that as well. They they you know they must. They've got a stake in it and it's a It's a huge thing that you're asking, asking them to do. That's right. Yeah, you're right. If if they've, they've [00:52:30] approached you. Um, but I guess that's part of the, um well, it's all it's before the pre interview, isn't it? It's really working out, You know, you, you you Well, there's a whole stage before the preview of the sort of negotiation and and sussing each other out. Really? But but quite often on the phone or meeting up you can. You can. And sometimes that person might not be right. Sometimes they may not want to do it. Sometimes they may lead you to, um, someone else. It's quite [00:53:00] good. Uh, this is a new This is just a good thing to think of in general is, um, to be recommended can be quite good. You know, to be, um, to work through someone who knows the person you're trying to contact. I would have thought that could That could work well on this for queer history. Because you will, you'll have, uh, for some generations, you know, you will have, um it will be hard and I. I remember doing trying to track down people who [00:53:30] are in the gay rights group and having a terrible time. Um, it might have been me, but it might have also been that generation have, you know, had a different experience of being gay. And and this is the generation who who, you know, lived through law reform but had a whole period before that where it was really difficult. And maybe there's the whole thing of, um, uh, having to be Yeah. Having to be more covert, more close. [00:54:00] Uh, and maybe that's why they wouldn't necessarily respond well to someone from this younger generation. Just sort of bowling up and saying, Oh, tell me what it was like to be gay in the seventies. Um, perhaps, but that's about being sensitive and sort of understanding, Um, as much as you can about the context of what you're trying to do and then you'll do a better interview, Hm?

IRN: 538
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/johnny_croskery_tribute.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003973
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089267
TITLE: Johnny Croskery tribute
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Bill Logan; David Pankhurst; Des Smith; Kay Jones; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bamboo Bar; Bill Logan; David Pankhurst; Des Smith; Johnny Croskery; Kay Jones; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar; Sister Paula Brettkelly; Wellington; drag; performance
DATE: 17 May 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar, 176 Cuba Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the tribute night to the late Johnny Croskery held at Scotty and Mal's Cocktail and Lounge Bar in Wellington. Johnny passed away on 19 April 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: OK, Good evening, everybody. If I can ask, please, that'd be great. Thank you. Grab a seat. Sit down, make yourselves nice and comfortable. And look, honestly, when we suggested doing this, it was, as we all know, Johnny passed away very, very quickly. And, um, it was a shock to all of us. And just by looking around tonight, I think it's really restores your faith in human nature that all you people have turned up tonight. It's truly fantastic. It just goes to show the way that Johnny touched us each and every way each and and, you know, like [00:00:30] all of us individually, she touched us in some way. And when we went to Johnny's funeral as we know, it was a very limited funeral. It was very, very small. And after the service, Bill said to me, It be really nice if you guys could do something down in the bar for Johnny, for the Met, the people that couldn't make it to, um the funeral. And so it's good to have you all here. Welcome. And thank you for taking the time for being here. We had the idea of doing this and not knowing how many people were gonna turn up? So we're gonna We've put on a few little nibbles as we go through the night. We want to keep this really relaxed, Really informal. [00:01:00] Um, it's more of a remembrance service than a memorial service because we've got a bit of fun and a bit of a And, um, if you've got anything to say, it's an open mic. Get up and talk about some times that you spent with Johnny, OK? And and remember the fabulous person that she was and that fabulous, gorgeous trademark red with hers and, um, dynamic, dynamic person. Um, I've known Johnny for years and years myself and purely. We were working through the hospitality industry and going way back to the bamboo bar days when Peter and Johnny used to come and and they were regulars clock work in the bamboo [00:01:30] bar and II. I can honestly say I've never heard Johnny say a bad word about that Anybody She just had the most amazing prison personality and and dynamic absolute dynamic. We're gonna get some food going very, very shortly. And just before we start through the magic of of a blast from the past. Um, Gareth has kind bought in a little bit of a CD for us to play, and it's actually Johnny telling a couple of anecdotes, so we're gonna play that now. So if you'd like to listen to that, and then we're gonna throw the floor open, and I'm just to get you going with a few stories that you may remember. [00:02:00] I remember working with Johnny on numerous occasions at the old Dorian Club when it was in the Wall Street Village and down in Lampton Quay. And every time we were doing a fundraiser, Johnny and Frankie would come along and they'd throw on their gowns and always do fabulous buddy shows. Um, the devotion parade was absolutely fantastic. And I got to drive around in a little bit, um, Roadster convertible MG Roadster convertible with Johnny looking absolutely repent in this beautiful big lime green dress with this big red wig and all these little white puppies fluffy puppies in the car as well. It was absolutely [00:02:30] gorgeous. And that was it. That the little fun things that I remember about Johnny and sharing the times with her and doing shows and and just loving sort of person she was. But OK, so what we're gonna do right now is switch on the sound, so please just relax and listen to it. And then we're gonna throw the floor open for you guys to get up and say something. OK, so think why you're doing this. Why are you listening to this? Think about what you would like to say. OK, Cheers. Well, my pets. Yes, I I'm rather crazy. They're they're not really my pets. They're my Children. Um, they they're Maltese Maltese dogs. [00:03:00] Absolutely divine. I would take them on the floats when I was doing the devotion parades in Wellington. Um, they always looked glamorous. They always sat in well with a white fox fur because they looked the same as but they were alive, you see? Yes, that they're rather wonderful, but, um uh, very, very gay looking dogs. They are. Yeah. It seems as though as they pass on [00:03:30] to their reward in heaven, I seem to be blessed or whatever you like to call it with more that arrive. I think the word has got around that people who can't cope with them anymore, they know that there is somebody who can and I seem to collect them. Yeah, Another thing, which was rather I mean, I think this was quite funny. My partner and I were This is quite some years ago. We were walking down, um, Wakefield Street and [00:04:00] on a Saturday afternoon and there was quite a lot of cars, and they they they stopped at the lights and one of them pulled the window down and yelled out, Oh, look at the que you know. Well, II, I just thought I always thought this type of thing was quite funny when it happened. So we just walked on and everybody in that car, including the driver, had turned around and the ones behind, too. And all of a sudden, there was this own mighty God Almighty crash and they smashed into each other [00:04:30] because they were looking. And I have never moved so quickly. I. I don't want to have been a witness to this bit. What a hell of a distinctive voice, I can tell you. You know, it's a bit hearing that right now. Actually, Um, look, anybody. Bill, would you like to get the ball rolling? If you got anything you'd like to say, I think you'd be the perfect person to start the ball rolling here. And then after Bill's finished, please feel Just get up relaxed and tell the stories that you remember about Johnny Or any time you've worked with anybody [00:05:00] left from the AIDS Foundation Bill to you. Where to start? Um, I suppose I I've known Johnny for over 30 years, but there'll be people who have known him a lot lot longer. Um, and he was together with pet, you know, for 52 years. That's an awful long time. Um, a a And, um, they met. They met when Johnny had his first job, [00:05:30] uh, in the, uh, window dressing in the D IC. And and? And Peter was working for, um, one of the pubs, and he had to do the banking, and he'd be walking past the D IC, uh, take taking the money to the to the bank. And they saw each other through the window when Johnny was 17 years old. Uh, together, right to the end. I think it's pretty amazing. Um, and and, um [00:06:00] uh, they bought that house in Coromandel Street, like, four years later. And they were in a right through, uh, with those bloody terriers. And and And there were eight of them at one stage. And II, I remember the first time that, uh, Johnny invited Jerome and me into that that house. [00:06:30] And it was It was really quite an amazing house. Um, with uh, these sort of velvet opera curtains and, uh, and decorations and a special room for the pianola. And another special room for the sewing and the and the and the and the costumes. It's amazing. A lot of costumes. No. And, uh, yeah, other memories. Me memories of Johnny [00:07:00] as the Christmas Fairy, Uh, at the, uh, at the Victorian club Christmas party and the other presidents, Uh, and, uh, memories of him. They live to himself in the the devotion parade, uh, as the as sort of the Empress of Wellington And that fun that laughter, and they completely unserious frivolity so that if you didn't know him a little better, [00:07:30] you'd think that he was just a bit of fluff. And then there's the other side where he spent hour after hour after hour looking after people who are dying of AIDS, shopping for them, caring for them doing their house being a dedicated carer. So he was someone who was [00:08:00] fun and sparkle and guts and and life. He never sought to be a role model. I think he never sought to be an ambassador for us, but he was so conspicuous that he was inevitably an ambassador for us. And it's a bloody good one. Not stay. Yeah, [00:08:30] yeah, yeah, Johnny, I remember him or her so well doing homosexual law reform. I was running around like Cat. I met Johnny and Johnny said to me, I'm not political at all and I said, Hold on. I think you have done far more for the community than I've ever done. And yeah, I've just been Johnny for so long. Great. And I still remember Sister [00:09:00] Paul, Paula Brett Kelly. You all probably know how. She said she would love to borrow some of Johnny's gowns because they were magnificent. And I don't know how many of you went to our 130th birthday party at the boat. She the party. But there was Johnny, and Johnny was magnificent, and we got photos at home with that beautiful wig on. So anyway, great memories of Johnny and we miss you. [00:09:30] Hi, everyone. I've got some like everybody here. I've got some great memories of Johnny as well. Um, looking at the beautiful photo of Johnny. I remember seeing him him come out at the Newtown Fair a few years ago with the wig and the makeup and the beautiful sequin dress and standing in full sunlight on the steps. And there was not a flaw in [00:10:00] the makeup. And I thought, Now that's a work of art. And I think Johnny lived his life as an absolutely wonderful work of art because I think to stand in full sunlight with makeup and not have a line of blemish was amazing. And Johnny once said to me, He gets a lot of invitations to go out and be in drag, but he said, Oh, my dear people don't know the work. They don't know how long [00:10:30] it takes and how hard it can be. And so that's one memory of of Johnny. I'd like to reiterate what Mal said that I never heard Johnny say a bad word about anyone, and I think part of the the strength that Johnny had was that despite people yelling at him from cars or abusing him in the streets. You know, we've got the courage it took him to live. His life was really something. [00:11:00] And I think the amazing thing to me was that he never got bitter. He never got hard. He never got malicious. He was living his life, um, so that it was magical for him And for those of us lucky enough to be around it, I remember seeing him perform once where, um, one. The first act came out and stomped around to We love rock and roll, and part of the act was giving the finger to the audience. [00:11:30] And then Johnny came out in the beautiful sequin dress and the wig and the makeup and sang When you wish upon a star, you couldn't have got two more disparate acts, and I thought, That's how Johnny is living his life. It's It's it's Disney and it's wishing upon a star and it's magic. And it's about being kind. [00:12:00] And as Bill said, you can't dismiss Johnny as a bit of fluff because the strength of character to live his life. And, you know, I'd like to pay tribute to his work at the AIDS Foundation, too. The amount of time and care that he spent with people on the last part of their journey. People were very fortunate to have Johnny with [00:12:30] them at that. At that stage, Um, the only time that Johnny threw me once I it still made me doubt myself quite a lot. We were at, um, a big function. And there was a magnificent portrait of Queen Mary who died in 1953. And Johnny and I would often talk about movie stars and royalty and all those fun things. And Johnny looked at this portrait and said, Oh, now she was a real queen. Said he looked at me and said, Do you remember Mary? [00:13:00] No, I didn't, Johnny, But, um, like you, he was a treasure, and we'll miss him. Uh, it's really interesting to hear the words kindness and fun come out because for me, they will be a couple of examples that I'd like to share with you tonight that reflect that very much. Um, for years and years, my elderly mother always came to the Queer Fair in Newtown, and she loved going, And, um, one year [00:13:30] we were there and there was Johnny and his beautiful red wig, and I think it was a lime green dress and she saw him and she said, Oh, I'd love to have my photograph taken with him And I said, Oh, you know, he's not here for people to line up and have their photographs taken with him And you know, he's having a nice day at the fair and she kept on and said, Oh, but I would love to have that. So I went up to Johnny and I. I didn't really know him then and I said, You know, I explained to him and he just said, Bring her over here And he stood with her and we took [00:14:00] photographs and I mean, what is that? The kindness? And I think that was totally fantastic. The other thing that I remember and this is a story that I will definitely always treasure. This must be about 10 years ago and I was coming out of a new world at Shapers Park, and in those days I was not. I hadn't got to the point where I knew that I needed to wear these glasses most of the time and as I was coming out of the supermarket, I looked across the road and then I saw this woman on the other side of the road who was looking at me, and she was almost [00:14:30] waiting and she was smiling. And I thought, Oh, she who's that lovely young thing over there. And and so I I have thought, Well, she sort of looks like she might know me. And I sort of got most of the way across the road and realised it was Johnny. And when I got to the other side of the road, he said, Oh, I was looking across the road and I thought, Who is that handsome young man on the other side of the road? We just grabbed each other and we we we literally danced around on the footpath and just laughed and laughed. And I mean again, that's Johnny being fun. But it was [00:15:00] for me. It was also something really special about that kind of queer unity that there we were dancing around the street, laughing at a joke that only we knew and why it was particularly funny to us. And that was I'll always always remember that. Yeah, Johnny you are a very kind, very special person. And I would also agree that, uh, he wasn't a piece of fluff. He was a strong person as well, too. [00:15:30] Oh, just M. I'm sorry. What was that? Um, des talked to you about, um, Johnny and his association with the AIDS Foundation and of course, sister Brett Kelly, who worked there. Now, um, Sister Brett Kelly, uh, was called back to the mother house about once a year, much to her despair to celebrate Christmas with the other nuns. And what they had [00:16:00] done for a number of years was, um, the big thing that they did was to splurge out and have a fancy dress contest. Um, and Paula met Johnny at the AIDS Foundation, and they were about the same size. And you can guess the rest from there on. Paula always won because she would go and select a lovely outfit from Johnny's wardrobe. So, once again, that's Johnny's generosity. [00:16:30] Alright. Would anybody else like to say a few words at all? No. Nobody's got any more stories. I want to relate. No. Alright. What we'd like to do then just raise our glasses and I think to Johnny. Thank you for being the fabulous person you were, darling. Thank you. You'll never be forgotten. Now, relax. Chill. Enjoy yourselves. Thank you for [00:17:00] your idea. And it was like And then we spoke to a couple of other people and they think, what a nice idea. Because, as we know, Johnny went quick, and there wasn't very many people that could get to the funeral. And, um, it's just really nice to be able to do something like this, actually, for Johnny, Um, I remember serving in the bamboo bars was a stunning person. Absolutely stunning. Always there when you need it. Always gave you demanded any money. Always worked for nothing, the sort of person she was. And she did so much of the AIDS Foundation as well, Always out there collecting, raising money, fundraising, You know, if we had a dozen more people like that. So to Johnny, [00:17:30] thanks for being here today. Very much appreciate it. I see. Yeah.

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TITLE: Ian Smith - early years of HIV AIDS in Christchurch
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VOICES: Ian Smith
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; AIDS Support Network; AIDS roadshow; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bruce Burnett; Candlelight Memorials; Canterbury earthquake 2011; Christchurch; Ettie Rout Clinic; Gay Men's Health Crisis; HIV / AIDS; Ian Smith; Kate Leslie; Lambda Centre; Lambda Trampers; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; Paul Reeves; Ralph Knowles; Ray Taylor; Rodger Wright; San Francisco; Shanti Project; Thailand; United States of America; activism; community; death; discrimination; drugs; education; gay; health; health system; homosexual law reform; msm; needle exchange programme; politics; prevention; prison; profile; school; sex; sex-on-site venues; support; training; travel; venues; volunteer
DATE: 12 May 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Christchurch, Christchurch, Canterbury
CONTEXT: In this podcast Ian talks about the early years of HIV AIDS in Christchurch. Ian also talks about the establishment of the AIDS Support Network, which later became the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. Ian died on 24 December 2015.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi, I'm Ian. Ian Smith. Um, yeah. When you talk about the gay scene in the early eighties, Um, it was pretty. It was pretty follow up. Actually, we had a lot happening in Christchurch at that time. Um, there were a lot of a number of organisations which are very active. And of course, there was a whole political law reform happening in in the in the middle mid eighties anyway, and, um yeah, certainly was. It was a good place to be When you say full [00:00:30] on What? What do you mean? Well, when I I there was a variety of activities and and things that one could go to, as opposed to for sake if you came from down south or somewhere. And it was pretty quiet there. Um and probably the same for the North Ireland people in those small centres. And it was a place where people were thinking a self is and gravitated to and often pass through on their way after after a few years or months or whatever on to Auckland and then probably to Sydney. Um, but it was certainly, [00:01:00] um Yeah, it was certainly a good place to be. It was. Yeah, it was pretty exciting. What kind of venues were available? Uh, there was a number of clubs. Um, there was a sauna, um, or two saunas. In fact, just trying to think now there was, uh, Lambda was in the sort of early eighties. Anyway, from what I can remember, that was a sort of gathering coffee place. It was really quite a good centre for a lot of people who didn't want didn't like the bar programme. [00:01:30] Um, there were various other organisations, the lamb of which is actually still going today, and that's where people got together and tramped various places. I mean, particularly around the mountains. And what have you there was I just can't recall now, But I know I know there was There was quite a lot of activity anyway. Yeah, so it was. It was quite a supportive place for people, and I think that's the interesting thing was that there probably was a degree of ghetto mentality [00:02:00] in those days. Um, in the seventies and eighties, where people really congregated together, they felt comfortable together. And then that's where people really came out or introduced their own Selves to to to themselves for, um and I think that that's that was very helpful in many ways. In terms of what happened later in terms of AIDS. I, I don't want to talk about today so much, but the fact was that I think we've lost that community [00:02:30] here. Um, we have various isolated pockets, but it's not that sense of community anymore. And people spread far and wide, and that makes it a done slight, harder to actually get messages across because they're not there venues anymore. There are. I mean, obviously, North Ireland has more, but here we haven't brought up due to the earthquake. Uh, here. We haven't got those venues now in the same way. Was it easy to be [00:03:00] openly gay in Christchurch in the early eighties? Um, yes and no, um people, people who didn't care. I mean, obviously, we're open about their sexuality. Um but I suppose for many people, it it wasn't. It was difficult to to actually be really open. I mean, Christchurch is reasonably conservative. Shae to Auckland and Wellington. Um, but yeah, it was I mean, it was a comfortable place to be. And [00:03:30] as I say, you had those alternatives from the heterosexual scene to the gay scene. And that was that was a a great asset for a lot of people. What about the ideas of knowing what was happening in gay or queer communities around the country, or even internationally? Was there much news coming to Christchurch, huh? I'm just trying to recall I mean, there there are obviously I mean, people travelled, um, [00:04:00] and travel a lot. And I mean, uh, I've been to various other countries and experience gay scenes there. And, of course, people coming back will talk about their their experiences and what have you and obviously that would, uh, motivate others to actually go as well. Um, I think we were reasonably in touch with what was happening. I'm pretty sure that we, uh we knew what we were where and what was happening. And particularly in terms of law reform and things or lack of, um [00:04:30] yeah. So I think we were really in touch. I guess that kind of question comes from nowadays. It's so easy to, um, think of communication, you know, with the Internet, with Google with mobile phones. But this isn't in an age. In the early eighties, where there was none of that and just I guess I was trying to figure out well, how How isolated was it? Yeah, I, I think, [00:05:00] um, we had access to other gay information and magazines. And what have you from from overseas particularly, say, Sydney and San Francisco and places like that? So I mean it. I think we were pretty well in touch with with most things that are happening. We we did get regular updates, um, through having those magazines as to what was happening in places. Um, and of course I mean, there was always the telephone. We still had the telephone, of course, even though we didn't have the Internet. And, uh, of course, [00:05:30] the written word as well. So I mean letters. And what have you would be going backwards and forwards and again, experiences would be expressed and, uh, and transmitted to various other people. So I think it wasn't seen as a liability because we obviously we didn't know any different. I mean, that was what we had, and that's what we had to make use of. When was your first knowledge of HIV A. I DS was September 84 1984. [00:06:00] What happened then? Well, it was basically through my flatmate who was actually a GP. And he'd been over in the States to San Francisco for a holiday day and and then became very aware of of, uh, men who are sexual men becoming unwell with this mysterious disease. And, uh, it seemed to be following a pattern, particularly with gay community, a gay male community and Haitian people. So, [00:06:30] I mean, that's that's the first, uh, awareness that I had personally, um, which obviously instigated, uh uh, concerns about what might happen here. How did he relate what was happening in San Francisco? Um, what kind of? Well, he was, obviously from a medical point of view, he was obviously concerned because, I mean, here was a disease which was manifesting itself in a totally unknown way, and there seemed to be no cure. Um, [00:07:00] and everybody was at a loss as to know what to do, and people were dying very quickly. I mean, in those days, it was not unusual for a person who might have contracted the virus to be dead within about four months or five months, so there was no cure and there was no way of knowing how they were going to tackle it. And it wasn't until a bit later on, they found out it was a virus and and so forth. And people like Gallo and, uh and, uh, the chap in France [00:07:30] discovered the virus shortly after that. After kind of that initial, um, hearing of of of this thing. What? What did you do? It was in response to what we've heard from him. Um and obviously there were other people in New Zealand becoming rapidly aware because of this communication between, particularly between San Francisco and New York and New Zealand. Um, we decided that we should set up some sort of a support network. [00:08:00] Um and that was actually happening in response in San Francisco, particularly with the shanty programme which was instituted there. And there was a gay lens health crisis in New York. Uh, there were two bodies which had started these support programmes for people because obviously being an unknown disease, there was a lot of fear surrounding it, you know, even the me or I shouldn't say even the medical fraternity didn't know what to do with it. And they were concerned about how [00:08:30] it was going to be spread. Could it be spread through the air? You know, all these things we had more recently, perhaps with bird flu and all these sorts of things. And in fact, we still get it today. We we just the, uh, kindergarten and child centre child. Um, what do you call it? The, um, in Auckland. Uh, recently just ostracised the kid for being HIV positive. Anyway, I'm going on a tangent here. Um, so, yeah, that that was what we perceived was happening. [00:09:00] And we thought, Well, we'd better be doing something about it, because even though we we weren't aware of having I didn't say we didn't have it. We weren't aware of having HIV and, uh, in New Zealand. It was a case of, um let's be prepared. So it was at that point where five of us, I think was now got together and talked about what we could do. And with the shanty programme in mind, we could set up something similar to support people who [00:09:30] ultimately became unwell with HIV. Can you tell me a wee bit about the the shanty programme and how that kind of works. Um, my memory is a bit hazy on this one now, but the shanty programme basically was a support programme which provided, um, care for people who who, um, aren't well, who had been, uh, discriminated against. Um, Probably kicked out of accommodation, lost their positions and and work and so forth. Um, [00:10:00] and just basically off, aside from society. So it was really a programme there which picked up the pieces and and volunteers provided that care. Um, and particularly even, uh, where people have lost their partners because their partner was was concerned about them themselves being infected and that sort of thing. So these people were totally isolated in many ways, but they needed some support. Obviously, Um and that's the shanty programme, broadly speaking provider that so [00:10:30] I presume. Not only was it just a, uh, care in terms of support, but it was also to do with providing food and accommodation and all those other things that were necessary and hostels and that type of thing. So the five people that you were talking about that met to talk about forming some kind of support, had that group come together before I mean, was that part of a another organisation that that you met or just individuals coming together, I mean that these [00:11:00] people had some, obviously some input into into community as a whole. I mean, they weren't just people coming in off the street and said, Let's do it. They had been involved in gay politics and all those other things as well. And I mean, um, yeah, all of us had some sort of connection with with gay male movements and so forth. Um, yeah, so I mean, it was a question of realising that we had we had the capability of bringing some together. [00:11:30] It was just a matter of organising it and making a start. So how did you make a start? How how? Well, we had a couple of we had several meetings and it was decided. And it was funny because I I had actually sold a business, Um, several months before and I was planning on being semi retired. Um, I did have an art gallery, which was a small place, and it wasn't going terribly well, but anyway, I had time and it finished up that I became this coordinator of this group because [00:12:00] the other ones were very busy and and all had positions and and so forth. Um, and it was was mooted that we should really begin recruiting people. And that sort of began happening. Um, the end of 84. So putting the word out, really? And it was more aimed at obviously men who have sex with men or or gay. I didn't I didn't I didn't find themselves as gay. Um, it wasn't discrimination about women. It was [00:12:30] just the fact that the men were the ones who were probably primary going to be the ones affected and therefore their their motivation would be to be perhaps involved in an organisation like that. And then we we were in contact with Auckland who were forming a similar organisation, and Wellington was again similar. That was basically through more of the gay movement, the gay men's movement. Um, and we then, uh, decided that we would [00:13:00] recruit people advertising all that sort of thing to get people interested, pass the word around and start a formal process to to, um, screen people and that sort of thing. And we we set a date from March 85. I think it was March 85 as our first intake. And fortunately, one of our members of the small group was, um was in the midst of the administrator and the CPIT or the Polytechnic, as it was then, [00:13:30] and made a room available for us for that first gathering. And we also we had about, um I think we screened about 50 people and found about 30 of were suitable. I mean, not everybody was always suitable, even though they wanted to be a volunteer. The fact was that they might have some other agenda or they might have some other stuff. They why they might not be to cope with the situation that might arise as simple as that. So we did the screening process, and we came up with around [00:14:00] about 30 people. Um, we access some of the expertise from Auckland because they had several leading people there Brisbane at um and Kate Leslie, who was actually the senior social worker with the Auckland Hospital Board. Um, and they could bring skills and when it's about what the real situation is, Bruce had been in San Francisco and he'd come back from there, so he was obviously aware of the shanty programme and of course, Ray [00:14:30] Taylor, who was local or wasn't local here at the time he was in Auckland. Um he also had experience in Shandy programme. So we drew on their expertise and we asked them if they'd come down and help us with the first process in terms of education and and the training. So it was basically a formal training based on counselling based on support. There wasn't much given to prevention at that point in time because our main concern was well, OK, well, a lot of people were overseas, [00:15:00] possibly come back and they might be unwell. What are we gonna do for them? How have we got a team here to provide that support And we couldn't rely on existing services because existing services were pretty ignorant about what the issues were. And we're pretty fearful about their own, um, possibility of getting a disease and the medical fraternity didn't want to know And the government didn't want to know either because there was another cost on their health programmes. And so it really came down to the community [00:15:30] to actually provide that that service initially when you say the medical community didn't want to know. What? What does that mean? Well, basically, they didn't know they did. They didn't. Didn't understand what it was. Um, obviously, we weren't fully informed about what it was, and and nobody else oversees when you either at that point. But, um, it was a case of, uh, I suppose, medical people looking at it as as another possible disease which might affect people in this country. [00:16:00] But it wasn't there yet. Therefore, it was a great, great priority. And it was the same with the government and and the and the mental mental medical health services in general. At that stage in 1985 were there many known cases of of HIV aids in New Zealand? Um, well, it was probably It was only about one or two. Yeah, And Bruce being one of them that Yeah. Yeah. And it wasn't until later on, uh, getting to 86 [00:16:30] that more people came, came forward. So and it wasn't until later that we actually had our phone first home phone per person. Bruce Burnett sounds quite extraordinary. To be able to come back to New Zealand and to be openly positive and not only that be actually actively setting up support groups did did you know him much? No, I never met him. He, um he did a trip through the South Island, [00:17:00] which, um, basically raised awareness with a few leading people in the community here. Um, but it was quite a quick, quick trip. I mean, it was probably only about a few days and then back back to north again. Um, I think he he he, um obviously was aware that that it was a There was a need for awareness about the disease and what was happening. And that's why he put a face on it. And that still really applies today. It hasn't changed because if you hide the disease and hide the people, [00:17:30] then people think it's gone away. So Bruce really did what what was necessary to do and what we need needed to do in the future as well. I mean, I know it's it's pretty hard to ask a person to do that, or even a person to volunteer to do that, but it's very necessary to do it, and and I respect them greatly for doing it because I know how hard it would be. But, um, yeah, Bruce was the first person who really got out there and said, Well, look, I'm I'm HIV positive or whatever it was, and I can't remember, Um, [00:18:00] and this is what is gonna happen to me, which ultimately did, and, uh, he motivated people to to really get going and doing something about it. Can you recall in those early days in 84 85 what the feeling was within, say, the gay community to towards this really ambient I think it was a fact was denial. I mean, that whites overseas. So what? [00:18:30] Let's carry on doing I mean, we we didn't really know how it was actually being transmitted. We knew there was something to do with sexuality and sex and stuff like that, and it was probably to do with Well, why gay men? Why Asians? I mean, there's always questions coming up, you know, um, and you, you you put two and two together to some extent, But you knew that gay men, particularly in those areas like the Castro and San Francisco. I mean, [00:19:00] sex was full on on multiple sexual partners and so forth. I mean, that was the same thing happening here, too. But it seemed to lean itself towards the possibility that it could be just a gay disease. But we still weren't convinced about that. It didn't matter whether it was gay disease anyway, because the fact is that it was a disease and I don't see anybody. I couldn't see anybody's sexuality having an effect on that. The fact was that you're a human being and and you picked up a virus. So [00:19:30] what? That person needs support and treatment, simple as that. So I mean, it was but here, I, I think, Yeah, it took. It took a while before people really realised exactly what the situation possibly could be. And what about in the wider community? Was there kind of apprehension or just something that this was actually happening overseas and we didn't need to care about it? Or I think people like lately in 85 were becoming more concerned about it. Um, there was more news [00:20:00] coming through about the numbers of people and the fact that people were dying relatively quickly. Uh, and there was no cure, and it taken a long time for governments to get into gear and they'll be doing anything. And the fact it was the gay community who produced the first leaflets and pamphlets that went out. Um, and the health department had refused or the government refused to fund any of that sort of stuff at all. So there was a gay community who funded those initial information [00:20:30] type pamphlets. And funny enough, the house services grabbed them. I mean, they thought it was great. I mean, here's some information about disease we knew nothing about, and I mean the the The fact was that the the AIDS um organisation or the AIDS Support network, initially provided really the only information, any substantial information, any true information to to the public not only the public, [00:21:00] but, of course, to their own communities as well. Um, and and the health services then began to recognise that there was a real problem. So I mean that that whole process that people gradually became aware of the of that and were concerned, um, was part important part of the process to actually start prevention work. But unfortunately it's there's always people out there who, in denial, they don't want to know. [00:21:30] That hasn't changed much. from then till now. So the organisation based in Christchurch did it have much to do with the other centres like Wellington and Auckland? Was there a kind of an overarching communication or Oh, there was communication. Yeah. Um I mean later. Later on in course 85 86 there were regular sort of get togethers, um, of these organisations. But that [00:22:00] really came on more under the brother of the Yeats Foundation. But initially we're working a bit in isolation, I suppose. But we're all sharing information and we trying to model our programmes similar to others. Could you describe for me that first intake of volunteers? So the 50 people, what kind of people were were coming forward or gay males? All men have sex with men, whether they identified as gay or not, um [00:22:30] as, say, out of that 50 we we selected only 30. There were people who had been act or are active or had been active in the community and various organisations. And what have you or people who felt that they needed to do something or needed to provide what they could in terms of expertise or their knowledge or whatever it was or just their their person power. Really? You know, being able to do something. Um, [00:23:00] yeah. And it was a It was a pretty broad spectrum of the community. I mean, it was from, well, whatever Brick lay through to to, um, professors. And, you know, I mean, it was it was a a good cross section of people of all ages. Probably more in the sort of late twenties, 35 age group, mainly. Yeah. And when you say screening, what kind of things did you say or do to kind of [00:23:30] get down to 30 from 50 was more. It was more about asking people what what they saw as what they can contribute and what sort of skills they brought to whether they had any background in terms of medical or counselling. And what have you? Um, and also their motivation was the important one. we didn't really want people who who really, um, just [00:24:00] wanted to help people, you know, help people from the illness and that sort of stuff or help a cure or something like that. Maybe some religious affiliations more the way out. Ones I should say, would be it would have been excluded because of of again, the motivations in terms of their own agendas was the agenda that we were particularly concerned about because, let's face it, you're dealing with people who are unwell, who are really [00:24:30] facing a short life span, and they certainly didn't want to have to cope with somebody else's agenda or a lack of understanding. So there was those things. I mean, you can't always be 100% on these things, but I think with the skills that that our panels our panel brought to to the interview process, um, brought out any, um, any deficit, shall we say, I know [00:25:00] we set ourselves up as judge and jury, but I think that's necessary at that point. And you say it was March 1985. That was the first in the first intake around. That time was when the homosexual law reform bill was going through Parliament. How did that impact on what you were trying to do in terms of supporting people with HIV A. I DS Well, we weren't We weren't supporting anybody at that point. You must remember. I mean, this was just the initial phase, and we didn't have any Anybody apart from Bruce in Auckland. [00:25:30] We didn't have everybody down here anyway, that we knew of. Um so really, it was It was really a mix of, um I suppose it was helpful in a way that that the whole law reform process was taking place because it actually had gained access to those people who are political and are willing to get off the bus and do something. Um, and also it it gave a venue to recruit from. It gave a venue for raising awareness, [00:26:00] and it also provides its latterly the AIDS Foundation, with a pretty good hammer in terms of the bill and why it should be passed. So it was. It became political as well. AIDS became political, but it was for the benefit of the community that became political. I mean, there are other people who are far more involved in that side of it than me. I was more involved in trying to get an organisation off the ground and getting [00:26:30] people trained. Well, if you could maybe, um, talk to me about the training. What? What was involved in in training? People we went through. We went through the issues about the possible transmission of disease. We went through issues about death and dying. Um, also talking about supports And what and what what sort of, um, what sort of supports we would provide? [00:27:00] We didn't set ourselves up to be counsellors, but counselling was was an integral part in terms of the volunteers of being aware of of processes and what happens there. We talked about the health system and we talked about referring on and all those sessions. I mean, over a two day period, there's a lot of bonding going on as well. A lot of those [00:27:30] sorts of bonding activities And what have you, um, and getting people to talk about themselves and how they felt about it and what would happen and so forth. So it was. It was a real mixture of, of understanding about disease and dying and and and so forth, but also understanding themselves and how they would cope and understanding what support systems needed to be in place and so forth and understanding what they can expect from the health system. [00:28:00] So that was two days, Um, after that we had regular trainings on the Monday night for six weeks and that again, we didn't make any final decisions as to who was going to be in the group until then. Um, we start off with the initial 30 odd, um, and they carried on for six weeks. And after that, if anything came out which wouldn't be helpful for the person with with the disease, then we [00:28:30] would ask them if they wouldn't mind just standing aside at the moment, there would be something else for them later on. So I mean, it was primarily focused on support. And to that end we brought in experts from other fields who were involved in support for other diseases, and they provide their expertise. So those sessions, as they went on for six weeks And at the end of that six weeks, another assessment done. Some people opted out and said, Well, no, it's not for me. It's too heavy. And [00:29:00] others stayed in, of course. So the first support group was formed, basically. And then, from then on, we had, um I think for that year we had another two two groups formed for in the same process and of similar size. Yeah, basically, um, again, I mean, we we could pick and choose a bit because we had a We had a good pool of people that we [00:29:30] didn't have anybody to support. But it was an ongoing training process. It was an ongoing, um, process where people would develop themselves and feel comfortable with their own feelings with other people and and so forth. So that was very important. Yeah, the training materials that you were using. Where did they come from? Uh, various sources. I mean, we we drew on people with that expertise. Um, they provided those resources, um, [00:30:00] and also talking about their own issues and so on with homosexuality And what have you? I mean, all those things have to be confronted. Because if somebody wasn't happy about their own sexuality, then God, you can't put that on somebody who's trying to try to get through life, You know, the best way they can. Um, so there was all all sorts of input there for you. What were the kind of biggest learnings over that period in terms of taking people through this process? Um, for me, [00:30:30] I think, uh, I think it was basically I was probably I was learning about those issues as well. I have not got a medical background. I hadn't got a counselling background. I haven't got any of those cells. What I did have was an organisational background and entrepreneurial background. Um, and that was where my strengths were lie. But of course, Obviously, I needed to understand I needed to understand about medicine. I need to understand about viruses and disease and stuff like that. And [00:31:00] I laid my hands on every piece of paper I could about the diseases of developing the states from the CDC in Atlanta that the centre of disease control in the, um and got that updates every week. In fact, every day, in fact, I mean paper of growing things. So I became really not just me, but other people became experts on what this disease was doing, how it needs to be treated and not not so much treated because there was no treatment then, but how it had [00:31:30] to be, uh, how people had to be supported and and so forth and how possible transmissions were and all the rest of it and also it it It encouraged me to, um, probably look at more in the terms of social work and social supports and all those sorts of things and community work, which I hadn't. I've been OK. I've been involved in gay politics to some extent, but I hadn't been so heavily involved in other areas of that nature. So it was a development process for [00:32:00] me and and had to become an expert because who else was that? The medical profession. Didn't know Health department didn't know government didn't want to know, and the average person in the street had no idea whatsoever. So a few of us became experts, Um, totally out of our fields, um, about something which is occurring overseas. And we go here when you were getting those piles of information from overseas, can you recall [00:32:30] what you thought might happen in New Zealand? I had no doubt that because of the of of the Kiwi Um uh, liking of travel, Um, I mean, it was usual for people to go overseas, particularly after they complete their degree or before it or whatever and that sort of thing. And gay men, um, travelled a lot in terms of other communities. And what have you It's only a matter of time. Um they're bound to have come here. [00:33:00] Um, yeah, we were very aware of that, and it was just a matter of time. Did you have any idea of the possible number of people that might be affected? We can engage that by the by what was happening overseas. I mean, particularly in America. Um, the the hundreds and thousands, I say 100 Hundreds of thousands of thousands of people, uh, were becoming unwell. [00:33:30] Um, and and it could be anywhere in the States. I mean, it didn't have to be in a major city. So it was obvious that, um, men who have sex with men were very vulnerable. And for some reason, I said before Haitians, I still don't know this thing Violations. But anyway, probably probably just because the, um the way the virus started to spread, that was all, Um so it was It was only a question of time. And it was a question [00:34:00] also of on making sure people understood in the community that it was an essential thing. But the first part was providing support for people who potentially came back from overseas to New Zealand. They didn't necessarily catch the virus here. They brought it with them. And that also had a double role in terms of protecting the other society as a whole, particularly men who are secular men. Because if they brought the virus back here, they really need to understand that they couldn't do what they wanted [00:34:30] to do as I had done before. Not not that they were probably able to anyway, because they were pretty sick on them. So by the end of 1985 were you actually supporting any people with the virus? No, not South. Not here. And when did that start happening? Might have been 80 end of 85 86 but definitely 86 early 86. And what kind of numbers? [00:35:00] Not large numbers. I need one or two people. They came back from America. Yeah, and we provide support for them. And what was that like suddenly being in a real situation as opposed to going through training? How how did that differ from the training? To be frank, it didn't. It didn't seem to be a change. It was just more of the same because we'd all gone through this in terms [00:35:30] of knowing what we had to do. and and And we We knew what we were up against. And we knew that people coming back had all sorts of diseases and being unwell. There was all sorts of issues in terms of families and those sorts of things that we had to as well, trying to help the families understand, um, and particularly often dealing with son's sexuality, which they probably didn't know about. So those issues, the homophobia, [00:36:00] then you have the community as a whole who are concerned about them living next door, whatever it was going to work where it might have been, Um, I mean, obviously, some of those people weren't able to go to work anyway, and then you're dealing with social services and you're dealing with medical fraternity. You didn't know what to do with them who were just as scared as anybody else. And and if they went to hospital, they were faced with their foods, slid under the door of the of the room because they were isolated [00:36:30] from everybody else. And I mean, the the um yeah, people didn't know what how to cope with it. They didn't know how to handle these people. Um, and that was a major problem society as a whole. It was the whole unfairness of it because people had because people were gay. [00:37:00] It was memorable day. Why had sex with me? Um, people ostracised. And so it was. It was only it was a sexuality as well of the disease, and it was almost like an excuse. But oh, great. We've got something now which will get rid of these people, and we won't make the life any easier and not willing to understand that transmission was [00:37:30] was more of a closer relationship than just being in the same room or drinking in the same coffee cup and all that sort of stuff. And I said in my paper, I mean we as as carers and, um and involved in education of of white city community, particularly health community, um, that people were very careful about not drinking on the same or having the same mug or cup of coffee as as we have. [00:38:00] Um, those sorts of issues were very prevalent and not touch it. That that's probably the hardest thing for people with HIV, and they be they be in those days wanted to touch it. Um, our carers knew it was OK. So they were the ones who actually provided that. So it was ostracising a whole group [00:38:30] of young people, and these were young people. There were people in their late teens, early twenties. We had her whole life before them before. And now maybe one year, maybe less. Maybe six months. They were difficult times. They were. They were political times. Um and we had to confront [00:39:00] those people who are making these irrational decisions. We had to confront the health services, how inappropriate it was that these people should be isolated in such a manner that people would gown up and put masks on and gloves. And what have you before even going in the room? I mean, sure, there was some uncertainty about the virus, but it became pretty We aware [00:39:30] that this virus was transmitted in certain ways. It wasn't just through the air because it was through the air. Let's face it, there would have been 50,000 more times people coming down with what there was. And of course, the whole thing about the the right wing and the the evangelists and all the rest of them, the fundamentalists grasped onto this one is that Here's the condemnation from God and so forth. So you would have all that to cope with as well. And and they were really they were really quite [00:40:00] happy to, you know, to pour this on to these people and contain condemn them as being sinners and so forth. So you all have all that stuff. So it was It was a very complex issue and still is today. But, I mean, in those days, it was very even more complex because of the fact was that we are still, um, not totally aware of all the repercussions. No, he dies. [00:40:30] I also have to apologise for the sound effects in the background. Which is, um I think some construction work, uh, possibly because of the earthquakes earlier on. But, um, it's it's unfortunate. So I do hope this our voices carry across over the skill blade. So in 1986 the AIDS Foundation came into being. I'm just wondering, how did we [00:41:00] move from the AIDS support network through to the AIDS Foundation? How did that happen? Well, I mean, a support network was basically a volunteer group. There was no funding. I mean, we supplied our own funding. Um and then the government gave some money in in 86. And, uh uh, it was in feasible. To employ somebody to be in a coordinating role nationally [00:41:30] as well as a board was was established and those sorts of things. And it really was just a question of of, um, combining that structure with the existing structures and put them together and calling them all the AIDS Foundation, which then really was helpful in terms of coordinating the the the focus as well as, um, having something to go to the government with and saying, Well, we've got this under our hat here. This is happening now, [00:42:00] Um, we need funding for it, and that's how it happened. So the funding came in dribs and drabs was 100,000 in the 1st 1st instance, and then there was more money coming. But you see, the AIDS Foundation also presented a very political front because it was actually able to communicate with the politicians directly. Uh, and there were people who were in their foundation at that point in time that this sort of later on 86 who had a lot of expertise in the political area [00:42:30] and a lot of connections. Important connections. So that was all part of that process. All part of that game machine. Um, and also, the funding that came through with them provided also the ability to employ people, uh, in the in the, uh in a national sense as well as the local sense. So that's when, uh, there was an appointment made here of of regional coordinator. Was there ever a tension [00:43:00] between, um I guess going from, you know, a completely voluntary situation to something that has paid staff and also a tension between going from a kind of a support organisation to something that's a bit more political with the tensions there, the real I mean, the reality was that the people who were driving the local wage built network were all people who were employed except for myself. They all were busy [00:43:30] with their jobs and what have you And this was becoming quite quite large in terms of time and and commitment. Not that they begrudged that, but the fact was that I mean, the reality is I got to end the bread and butter first before I start giving and, um So there was no, there was no real problem there at all. We we wanted to retain our autonomy in terms of being AAA South Island organisation with no doubt about that. Um and we wanted to obviously [00:44:00] have a say in what was happening in South Island because Auckland based organisations have a tendency to dismiss the South is being something down there, You know, we forget about that for a while, So we we made our voice heard about those issues that might come up, but other than that, it was very supportive in terms of having a body there which was able to source funding, channel the funding and and provide that support as well. But we still had to fundraise as well because we were never enough money anyway, [00:44:30] so did the aid Support network. Did that, uh, dissolve or did it kind of morph into There was no actual process that just happened. A foundation came along and interviews were done for people to be employed, and that's the way it went. I and we all realised obviously that we weren't as a loose volunteer organisation were not able to provide that sort of national [00:45:00] focus. I mean that we're talking about a huge problem here. We're talking about a national problem. It's not just the Christchurch problem or Wellington or Auckland or wherever. Um, it it was a national problem which had to be cope with on a national basis and had to have that power behind it and had to have the right people behind it. You had to play that political game. I mean, you you had the, um we had the governor general who was [00:45:30] Paul Reeves became patron and that sort of thing, it was all it was all a political process. But it had to happen. Because otherwise how are you gonna raise awareness? How are you gonna get the politicians side? How are you gonna get the money from the system? Do you think in the formation of the AIDS Foundation that the focus changed? I'm thinking, you know, when we're talking about awareness, education, support, uh, politics, How did you work out? What were the main things that the AIDS [00:46:00] Foundation should do? Well, that was done. I mean, obviously, it was done with discussion with the various centres, and it was, um, we had we had meetings in Auckland as well. Um, and also there was the priorities, obviously were to provide support for people who who aren't coming on well, provide political support for law reform. Also, um, source funding, which is another important thing. [00:46:30] More funding and produce materials. Information was was one of the first priorities because you had to get information out there. And you I don't know if you have seen the first information. Uh, posters that came out there were a for a a two or a one. They were pretty big. Um, probably about the size that mirror the two of them. I mean, anyone, anyway, isn't it? Um, those [00:47:00] those posters were literally full of information. They were They were in terms of impact. They they were not made for impact. They were there to provide information. And those posters were very expensive. They were glossy paper. They were circulated right through the country. We pray everywhere with AIDS and big red letters and so forth. And it was also it was also making people aware that we're talking about HIV here that's transmitted and not AIDS. [00:47:30] Age is the end of the line. People thought Well, here's somebody who looks ill. They must have HIV aids Or possibly that might be right. Here's somebody that looks fine. They probably haven't got anything so that to get the message that HIV was a hidden hidden category and this hidden, uh, infection and the AIDS was the end result of that of other infections because of lower immune system. [00:48:00] And so those sorts of messages had to be got through. And also don't be afraid it's OK to drink from the cup that somebody else might have used a week ago. Oh, it's OK to do it's OK to blah, blah, blah so that that sort of information giving was really important as an initial step because we had to pave the way to to try and offset this discrimination, this fear that was happening in communities. And it wasn't just out there. It was also within gay men [00:48:30] who have sex. A men community. Um, but yeah, I mean, we also had to inform how not to get this disease and the link up. Then, of course, with sexual activity and transmission of body fluids and so forth. So that was another national effort. Locally, we couldn't do that because we didn't have the money to do it with. But nationally, they had the money from the government to do it with and their direct communication and informed the government. This is what we're doing. This is the health process [00:49:00] and so on. So that was That was their advantages. There were no about that. Did you see a change in gay or or men who have sex with men's attitudes towards sex? Yes, and no, um, we weren't We weren't We weren't the six police or anything like that. And we weren't there to stop people from having a good time. Um, but we we did a lot of work in venues, um, in terms of [00:49:30] education. And we also did a lot of fundraising with gay communities and gay and lesbian community lesbian community women came on board as well, and they were great and supportive. Um, even though they were weren't effective, uh, to any great degree. Although later on, there had been a few cases. Um, but yeah, I mean it. There are obviously some people who who made decisions [00:50:00] not not to do certain things not to do perative sex without a condom and all this sort of stuff. Others decide not to have sex at all. Almost became a man. Uh, Sullivan. I mean, there was an over reaction. Um, but if you had the information, if you understood how this virus is transmitted and we're talking about later on here how this virus is transmitted, then, uh, obviously they would be comfortable [00:50:30] about what they could and what they couldn't do. So I mean, that was part of the education programme, and that came More of that came later because the foundation funded the, uh the people working in prevention within the gay community, or men who have sex with men, I should say, cos I mean, a lot of people don't identify as gay men or sexual men is the point. We're talking about activities we're talking about, not necessarily where your head's at, but what you do with the dick. Simple as [00:51:00] that. Do you think that the level of denial decreased? I mean, where where people still denying it in the, you know, 85 86 period. Saying I won't happen here. I don't think so. Took a long time after that. Still, it doesn't happen today, does it? A lot of people are still in denial that think it won't happen again. Um, [00:51:30] and there are always people who don't care. There are always people who don't take responsibility for themselves and other people. Simple as that. I mean, let's say it takes through to you can't blame one person with HIV and the one that hasn't and they both make a decision about having a risk activity. We're talking about risk activity. We're not talking about risk. We're not talking about risk people. We're talking about risk activities, and that's a message that took a long time to get through. Um, we're talking about HIV, [00:52:00] which was hidden disease as opposed to AIDS, so that denial is still there and there are still people. I mean, there are people in those days. Sure were in denial. And there are still people today in denial, unfortunately or ignorance. But I can't understand how they can be ignorant about HIV today. Maybe they are, I don't know. [00:52:30] So 1986 the AIDS Foundation is in place and you become the regional coordinator in the Canterbury Region. Is it? What does that involve? Um, basically more of the same is continuing on with the programme. Continue on with with, uh, recruitment. Continue on with diversification. Um, where are we? Where are [00:53:00] we going? To utilise our our volunteers and so forth. And And what sort of programmes could we? I mean, the national head. Their prime focus was, um, men have sex with men. My argument here was Well, that's fine, because that's where the virus is today. And where the where the where the highest percentage of the virus is, is there, um then [00:53:30] as it is today. But if we don't do something about other at risk activity, then there's no reason why this virus shouldn't spread to other areas and other peoples. Heterosexual Didn't matter what it was, bisexual or whatever. If you looked, if you looked at Africa and what potentially we saw was happening there. Huge numbers of people [00:54:00] being infected. It wasn't men who had sex with men. It was heterosexual. We're talking about a virus here. Doesn't give a bug of what you are. Who you are, is what you do. So it's quite simple as that. So we can't sit on Laurel. We couldn't sit on laurels and think Well, OK, well, this is a men's disease when the work is this because there's proof out there as it is, the foundation [00:54:30] didn't The foundation's philosophy was that the virus was mainly when men have sex with men, and that's where we should be putting our energies. We down here diversify a bit because that's what south of does quite often of Auckland, but not in a nasty way. We're separated by a piece of water. So we started doing education in schools. Um, we [00:55:00] started doing education with nurses. With GPS, we started to recruit going through the training programme. At this stage, I think we we always had people coming and going. But we had a consistent 120 people 100 and 20 volunteers. But we weren't going to get hundreds of people with AIDS, So it made sense to actually utilise these [00:55:30] people with various skills to work in other areas. And we hide we through the, um, generosity of a well known person in Christchurch. We were given a room in one of the bigger buildings and near the square which house our volunteer group, and I mean we had I say about 100 40 volunteers, and we had regular weekly Sunday meetings. Not quite church, nothing like that. But [00:56:00] it was a training session. Often we had updates of of, uh, giving people given updates on what was happening in terms of that, and also to to talk about their individual groups that they eventually were slotted into as they volunteered to do. Um, so we we looked at the the sex industry, male and female. We looked at the IV drug users because they were injecting [00:56:30] and sharing equipment. I say the Maori population was vulnerable because they were basically, um, discriminated against in many, many areas. Um, and we looked at other other areas as well, but primary we focused on Maori drug use, ivy, drugs and sex industry as well as of course, men have sex with men. Um and so we recruited actively people [00:57:00] from those groups and we trained them as well for them not for us, not not as white gay males to do, but for them to set up, set up their own organisations to go out and get this happening out there. And as a result of that, um, we had uh, 11 woman who who became coordinator of the, uh, pro collective still is today. We had a IV drug user who happened to be also a gay man [00:57:30] who had extensive experience in Europe and Asia in terms of the drug, um, fraternity and what you could do and what you couldn't do. He was also a part of origin from Australia and had been on his own for 18 since he was 18 or something and travelled around the world. There was a guy who knew what it was all about. He had connections. So he then got involved in the whole IVDIV [00:58:00] drug use, um, community while he wasn't ready, I mean, but in terms of the education and so forth, him and Gary McGrath from from, uh who who has both, um, from Wellington travelled up and down the country and lobbied organisations involved in drug rehabilitation as well as government to bring in a needle exchange programme. I work with Roger. He was Roger Wright, [00:58:30] who's a centre is called after him here, and he bashed my ear about drug use for many for a long time. I mean, I knew practically nothing about it. I'd heard of pills and stuff, but I didn't know much about injecting. So anyway, Roger, um, and Gary, uh, finally got this through the bill, and it was changed. It was changed. That position and syringes. That's history now. And of course, these exchanger was set up. Um, Maori was the arm [00:59:00] of the maori arm for, uh, AIDS projects collective in terms of of education for working women working men. Um, and as I say, we also got involved with we provide sessions for Doc GPS because their skills in terms of counselling were were pretty abysmal. And we got one of the top councils down from North Island. [00:59:30] I think he's still alive. I can't remember his name right now. Who did Saturday and Sunday morning sessions. The only way they get there was by promising them a free lunch. And, um, so we we persuaded them. We persuaded them in that way. Um, and And we did sessions with polytechnics who were training students in terms of nursing. Uh, we went to the mental health, uh, people [01:00:00] and and we also went to prisons. Um, we did work at at a time out of the local prison here, particularly with men that didn't go down too well with the officers. But anyway, and we advocated that there should be condoms available in prison and there should be free meals ass. Well, you know, we're talking about the eighties here, and still it hasn't happened today. Um, [01:00:30] so we diversified and we say Talk to school school kids, um, 13 upwards and got permission from parents. And what have you We did it. You did it right. But we didn't hide anything. We talked about sexuality. We talked about sex. We weren't doing the job in the in the organisation. We were doing something unique in terms of that, and we even went to Catholic schools and talked and talked about user condoms and stuff like that. So I mean, it was quite revealing just how accepting [01:01:00] the institutions were about these things because they realised the possibility of young people becoming infected. And, uh, they also realised that they had to do something. Um, and there was no point in hiding the fact that we were talking about sex, we were talking about penetrative sex. I'm not talking about sex in any other form, but penetrative sex, and this is what you need to do if you're gonna have penetrative sex. We were [01:01:30] obviously saying, Well, it's not a good idea at your age, but if it if it's gonna happen in the future, this is what you need to do. At the same time, we knew kids of 10 and 12 were having penetrative sex, and that's probably hasn't changed much today. So to say that kids shouldn't have sex education until after after they are 14 or 15 or 16 is a load of rubbish, because the fact is that they could become infected. [01:02:00] And as time goes on, if if it's a if people don't become aware, it will happen. Um, was there any, uh, negative reaction or resistance to those kind of programmes being out there? No, No, actually, um, it's really low key. We didn't make a big noise about it. We just contacted the school and contacted the right people and, um, people [01:02:30] who were responsible for the health curriculum, whatever it was, um, cleared it with the parents. They had the option of saying the child could go or not go, and 96% said yes. Um so it was very low key. I mean, the public didn't probably really know what was going on. I mean, if we'd made a noise about it, maybe family planning. I was trying. So we weren't crossing over family planning area. But, um, we were doing something from the point of [01:03:00] view of front line HIV education. Now, around the same time, there were things like the candlelight memorials and the AIDS quilt AIDS Memorial Quilt was was coming up in. I think it was 1988. Did you have much to do with those those type of things that came from America at that concert? Um, the court was very, very good at raising awareness about and what [01:03:30] was happening and and a loss of a loss of life. It might have been in Auckland first when it really started up there. I can't just put a date on it now, I. I wasn't personally involved in that, Um but when it did come down here, I had gone. I gone to Thailand at that point and the they had in the cathedral here, um, for several years, at different times, a number of people I've spoken [01:04:00] to just recount. The late eighties is a time well, late eighties and early nineties, when they were going to multiple funerals, like, um, I. I the one person was telling me, You know, every fortnight there was a there was a funeral. Did that happen in Christchurch? Yeah, on on a not as a great extent. I mean, obviously people were dying. I mean, people. I knew a lot of people who died, but, I mean, it wasn't It wasn't like Auckland. I mean, [01:04:30] Auckland had huge numbers of people, and I mean, let's face it, you still had to some extent, your ghettoised community, even though law reform had gone through. But this transition was happening over a period of time that that out to the four winds and like, um but yeah, I mean, people had grown up together. People had had partied together. They probably sex together and knew each other well. They had groups [01:05:00] met for meals and shows and whatever and that sort of thing, always always relationship were established over a long period of time. So you you obviously had the bigger your sphere of friends. I mean, the more people you you were subject to being lost. So I mean that it did happen here. I mean, it happened even with some of our volunteers, but, um, yeah, it wasn't to the same extent [01:05:30] and unfortunately, often hidden because people would never Actually, it was never actually said they had HIV. They died of something. I mean, obviously they didn't die of HIV itself. They died of pneumonia or they died of something. And that's normally what was on the first death certificate was that they died of pneumonia, so people didn't always know they died of HIV. And [01:06:00] that, in a way, did a disservice. I mean, OK, it was protecting the family, protecting the partner. Maybe. But on the other hand, people weren't aware of the numbers of people that really were dying became notified. But that same, you know, statistics. I mean, it's just a number on a piece of paper. But if you know this person, this person, this person, but that really hits home and it kind of makes you sit up and think, Oh, yeah, [01:06:30] it's not just in the next city is here, you know, the next country. Mhm. When did you leave the eighth election? uh, initially, 1990 the first time. And why was that? I suppose I'm I was an activist and entrepreneur and organisations have a phase. They have an establishment phase where you where you recruit where you raise awareness [01:07:00] where you do political stuff and all that do all those fundamental things to put an organisation on its feet in place. I was the entrepreneur I I was used to being able to promote. I was used to being able to sell or something and that's what it was really about. For me and I, I was an administrator as well as I still did a lot of hands on stuff. Um but the AIDS Foundation was becoming more bureaucratic. [01:07:30] There were more. It's more sort of power based in Auckland, Um, there were national managers, but being appointed and that sort of stuff And I thought, Well, I've done my bit, um see what I can do overseas and the reason why I went to Thailand. I went to Thailand in 1990 to the first AIDS conference in Bangkok. That was the first Asian I went there simply [01:08:00] because I knew that there was a major tourist activity from here to Thailand and most of those were heterosexual. I got but it was only a matter of time because in Thailand there was a huge problem. 60% of all the farmers in northern Thailand were infected because of because of six workers. [01:08:30] I knew it was only a matter of time. These people are going back with the forwards are going to increase the pro probability here and I thought, Well, if I could contribute something to Thailand in terms of the people there which are going to help New Zealand eventually and I would go and do something new that's the reason why I went. So I got out of the organisation here simply because of becoming more bureaucratic. It wasn't really. I didn't feel totally comfortable. I had lost sight of what it was about. But I didn't feel totally comfortable with [01:09:00] that role in that organisation and regional coordinator was flexible. Managers aren't there's a different role, but you actually did come back to the AIDS Foundation in the early two thousands. How did that happen? Well, I hadn't when I came back from Thailand, I mean, I worked over there. Um I came back and didn't have a job or anything and tried to get back to Asia. In fact, with the World Health [01:09:30] Organisation, they offered me a job in New Guinea working there. And I thought, My God, I know nothing about New Guinea has about 700 languages. How am I gonna possibly fit in, man? How am I going to get my messages through to what was happening there and I declined it. So I didn't get any office, any other office. So anyway, um, then a doctor [01:10:00] friend of mine who was who actually had been a volunteer in the AIDS Foundation, straight as I might add. But that was an interesting thing about the foundation. As it went on, more and more heterosexual women came forward as well as some heterosexual men. Um, just on the side, he he was chair of a trust which ran a needle exchange programme. [01:10:30] And he said to me at the time, I didn't have a job or anything and he said to me, We're looking for a manager, and, uh, would you be interested? And I thought, Well, I don't have a job at the moment. I knew a bit about ivy drug use cos Roger had taught me and I knew I'd been chair of the first board in 87. So I again I knew how it ran. And so um, [01:11:00] I said, OK, I'll give it a go for a couple of years and it's I stayed on and to 89. I think it was what was I 1998 If you get it right years mixed up here, Um, and then I. I decided that's I got bored with that because it was I put things in place was running pretty well. We [01:11:30] were getting more and more clients. I mean, the whole thing was growing quite quite well, and I've been involved in the national organisation as well the needle exchange programme. So I've resigned and, um then another opportunity came along, which meant that I had to, um, take care of some at risk people in Christchurch and became team leader for an organisation which cared for these people. These people who are HIV positive [01:12:00] the death for two years. Um then they changed the programme. So it was out of work again. And then the position of manager for AIDS Foundation came up and I applied on that. So in the two thousands now, how had the HIV AIDS landscape changed? In your opinion, it actually changed [01:12:30] it. A change from speaking from here. It has changed quite radically, not the situation itself, but the way it was being handled. You see, when you look at it in 90 we had 21, 120 volunteers doing various activities. When I went away, it was all closed down, except for the clinic clinic [01:13:00] was called it which provide counselling and support services. So there was a group of support people and a person, a man employed in managing prevention education. And that was it. The whole organisation had been contracted down further. National managers have been appointed. All the funding went through Auckland [01:13:30] and the autonomy had gone. So when I came back in 2000, um, it was a different organisation. It was very much it was focusing on support. You still had your one prevention education officer who had to do the whole area South Island. Um [01:14:00] and the emphasis really was on support. And sure, there were obviously more people who required support. But I did find it difficult. I. I suppose it was because of my background. Um, And when you say support, what what would that mean? Practically for? For somebody, For counselling. People with HIV counselling, um, support [01:14:30] in terms of medical health area, Um, terms of accommodation, all those sorts of things necessary for a person with terminal disease or potentially a terminal, I should say, because I mean by then, of course, the treatments have come along, which made a huge difference and people living a lot longer, but also presented more problems for those people living longer because of the fact that we were trying to cope with medications and bouts of disease and stuff like that. [01:15:00] Um, and also discrimination. So which hasn't changed a whole lot. So I mean, it's yeah, that was great. I mean, there was there was good things happening there, but I still was concerned about the lack of that community involvement in terms of education and prevention and stuff and that support process. I mean, if one person trying to do all that, that was a horrendous job [01:15:30] and it couldn't be done properly. It still the same today. Anyway, that's the way it was. And, um, I moved I. I did some radical things, I suppose, which didn't go down very well with some people. The initial clinic, when I was there was set up. We'd had a hospital board. We set up our own clinic initially in conjunction with hospital board in those days, didn't get on with them. Political. [01:16:00] They want total control. They wanted to go through the STD clinic and all the rest of it said no. Bugger off. We're not gonna do that. We pulled out and we moved premises to a, uh, a couple of apartments, Um, ground floor apartments or single. There were two story apartments joined together, and they were in Montreal Street and up the casual, um, Billy Anu and we set up a clinic called it was called the [01:16:30] Clinic, because basically was a person in the first World War who handled condoms and things out to the troops and all the rest of it. So that was it. There was. There was the clinic. I did get some premises next door a a house, um, for a massage and treatment room. And that was it. All the rest had gone So that was what I left when I left 90. The whole thing contracted down to the clinic. [01:17:00] And that was it. Um, yeah. So the organisation had radically changed from the days that I've been involved. But what had happened, in the meantime, was they had gone and left that premise in Montreal Street and moved to premises in the hospital. Well, that's OK. When I got there, um, the first thing I found was that the offices of rooms are very small. They shared one large [01:17:30] room with the administration for the ST I clinic downstairs. They were on the second floor on first floor, everyone ground floor, first floor, which meant anybody with any illness would have to go and climb those down stairs. The prevention room person had had the room, the prevention person had would not have been much bigger than than you. Probably there so small, Incredible. [01:18:00] The other rooms weren't much better, so I decided that we'd get out of there. I mean, it had been quite a long association. I've been there for several years, and the previous, uh, previous two managers have been quite happy there. But I hope no is no good. I thought we got to go back to the community. We're not part of the hospital system. Sure, people they go to hospital, they they see the specialists there so forth. But [01:18:30] that doesn't happen every day. So I hunted around for rooms and I hunted around for a building and particularly a building with some character and some warmth about it, because the hospital building is concrete. And, um so I hunted around and, um, found eventually, after being given the run around by a few people once I knew who we were didn't want us anyway, was a question of finding the right [01:19:00] building with the right owner down the right building. Eventually, after five or six goes and the right owner, the owner, as it happened, had a friend who in the UK who died of AIDS. He was very happy. We've been in his building. It was on a It was a A, uh, what do you call it? The, um, quite a large old old villa. And it was very suitable because it had lots of room and stuff like that and and a gun. [01:19:30] So I shifted the AIDS foundation From where we were in the hospital to there, which actually turned out to be in Hereford Street. And next door was the city mission, which I didn't think was any big deal. People in the city mission go out at eight o'clock in the morning and come back in about five or six. Our hours were from nine until five. So any clients coming in wouldn't need to have anything to do [01:20:00] with city mission. But as it turned out, people weren't happy. But the people were were were not happy where the people happy came to us anyway. But the clients, finally they they seemed to adopt it and find it was fine. I mean, the building was great. Unfortunately, it's fallen over. We the last earthquake earthquakes, but yeah, now they're they're casual street somewhere. Yeah. So anyway, um, [01:20:30] I suppose my relationship with the foundation had been quite good initially. And then after a while, I began to challenge things and I came to a crunch and I said, OK, my position here is not 10. Well, resign. So that's what I did. So that was the end of my involvement with AIDS Foundation for second term, But I think, you know, I was able to contribute something. Anyway, [01:21:00] I'm just wondering. Finally, if you could tell me what impact HIV aids and the work that you've been doing has had on your life. How How has it changed you? How has it affected you? Um, Mom's a lot more aware about social issues. Um, I'm still involved in the IV drug use as chair of the board and also on the [01:21:30] national board. So I still got some retain some. Uh uh, We, um What's the word interest in in that area? Not just because of its drug use, but because of HIV. Um, it's provided. Well, personally, It provided me line skills. Met a lot of great people. Um, yeah. I mean, a big education. Um, [01:22:00] plus for me as well. I mean, yeah, there's all that awareness of those social issues. Um, yeah, I. I mean, it's been very rewarding. And I've also meeting, as I say, a lot of great people in terms of all walks of life, you know? Yeah, and a chance to contribute something because we all [01:22:30] can often go through life, particularly if you're self-employed or something like that. And You're sort of focused on what you're doing. Probably with a lot of great regard for what the rest of the world is doing around you. Um, I'm not saying that's a generalisation. I I'm just saying that can happen. Um, and that Yeah, that became rewarding in terms of being able to contribute. Yeah.

IRN: 621
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089265
TITLE: Joe - Canterbury earthquakes 2011
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Joe
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; CRUZ bar; Canterbury earthquake 2011; Christchurch; Joe; Menfriends; Saint Martins; anxiety; community; death; depression; family; friends; liquefaction; media; parents; radio; sex-on-site venues; transgender; transition; venues
DATE: 12 May 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Christchurch, Christchurch, Canterbury
CONTEXT: In this podcast Joe describes what it was like to go through the magnitude 7. 1 and 6. 3 earthquakes that struck Canterbury in 2010 and 2011.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm Joe. I'm 30 nearly 31 which is scary. Uh, just a pretty Well, I wouldn't say typical. Just a transgender guy. Um, I live in spray now, but when the September 1 hit, I was living in Saint Martin's. Can you describe Saint Martin's to me? What? What kind of housing is there? Um, it's probably middle class, upper middle class sort of housing. Um, it's right at the bottom of the hills over the port hills, so [00:00:30] it's quite nice. It's a really nice family sort of area, which is why I like to live there. And what kind of houses, um, sort of an interesting mix. It's a mix of really, really old ones, sort of early 19 hundreds and pretty much everything is everything through the really ugly seventies stuff right up to really modern things. The old ones are typically made out of wood, but I think most of the newer ones from the sort of sixties onwards the brick stone [00:01:00] and what were you living in? I think my house was made out of stuff from the dump, from what I can tell, um, nominally kind of stone type stuff, but it was a bit of plywood and all that sort of stuff, and it was on piles, which was not a bonus at all. So September the 4th, 2010, there was a major earthquake in Christchurch. Where where were you? I was actually awake, which is amazing. No one else was awake. I was [00:01:30] in bed watching YouTube with a cup of coffee. Because this is about is it 4 a. m. four AM? Yeah, I just woken up for the day. Um, yeah, that was well, I'd never felt anything like it. It was like, OK, what's happening? Oh, my God sort of thing and spilled my coffee on my laptop, which upset me a lot. That probably upset me more than the earthquake did at the start because I didn't really realise how bad things were. It's like, Oh, no, my laptop and I just bought that. And I was like, trying to [00:02:00] tip the coffee off. And I could hear my flatmate screaming. Joe, the house is going to kill us. I was like, Oh, shit, it is actually quite bad. I go outside, so we sort of ran outside and really, what to do after that? it was probably no more than about 30 seconds, but it was pretty major. 30 seconds. It was rough. In what way? What What was the house doing? Um, the whole house was, Well, our house where we were was just shaking the whole thing. It was quite a violent one, from what I can remember anyway. And just everything started falling over [00:02:30] all C, DS stereos, everything out of the cupboards in the kitchen fridge. The fridge fell over washing machine came across the kitchen at us, which was actually kind of cool, but yeah, cats out the door, pot plants everywhere. Basically everything that could fall over did fall over with spices in the middle of the floor. And, yeah, So everybody just stood around outside going, Oh, for about Oh, probably about half an hour. And we were thinking, Oh, my God, what do we do? Because we had no power [00:03:00] or anything like that, so we couldn't even really see what the damage was. And after that, I just went back to bed. That must have been quite weird, actually, like, did the power cut instantly and yeah. Oh, I probably had power for about 10 seconds I was chatting online. I was like, Oh, my God! Earthquake by And that was it pretty much. And then, like the person I was talking to was apparently trying to text me for the next God knows how long he didn't hear back from me. And he's like, Oh, my God, Joe's dead But yeah, that was [00:03:30] scary. And then the power was out for for us, probably half a day. So what was it like, um, racing outside? This is like 4 a. m. in the morning racing outside pitch black. It was really cold, Really. It was cold. That sucks because nobody really had time to grab a dressing gown or anything like that. So just in our PJS boxes and whatnot, I've never seen my neighbours in their underwear before. It was it was pretty random, actually, And everyone was like, Oh, my God. And some people were crying and [00:04:00] we were just sort of standing on the doorstep thinking, Now what do we do? Because you just never prepared for that sort of thing. So pretty much everyone just gathered on the street, Actually, which was quite nice because I didn't know most of my neighbours, but it didn't really seem to matter that much. We just still went out to the street and like, Oh, God, is everyone OK? And then I think most of us went back to bed. So what can you do? Four. In the morning? Can you describe what other people's reactions were like? Um, a few people were crying. [00:04:30] Um, my flatmate was pretty scared. I think, like he didn't want to go back to bed. I was just really tired. So I was going to bed. I don't care, but, oh, a few of the men down my street were a bit angry, swearing and stuff. I think they were just They were shocked as much as anyone else. But it's just the way they were reacting to it. I was just thinking up. I hope I don't have to go to work in the morning, But yeah, it was a bit of a range of everything, really. Some [00:05:00] people cry and little kids were crying because they didn't really understand even what it was. Um, most people will call in their pets if they had them, including me. What? What happened to your cat? Um, my cat came back within a couple of hours. Alex's cat took a couple of days. Some people never got their pets back. But I mean, for us, our area wasn't that badly hit in September. So most of our pets did come back. Sort of pretty angry, like, What have you done to my house kind of thing. [00:05:30] Where's my food? Yeah, they were pretty good that time around. So at the time in the early morning, could you see if there was any damage to the house or or do you just go back in and think it was It was OK. We knew everything had fallen over, using the lights on our cell phones and going, Oh, yeah, there was a big mess in the kitchen and bookcases and everything, and we started to pick a couple of things up, but then thought, This is dark. There's not really any point. [00:06:00] And we're still getting the odd aftershock as well. So I was like, God, there's no point picking anything up until they stop. Because at that point we thought that they would stop Silly us. Uh, I think we just went back to bed after about half an hour an hour. They'll have to deal with it in a few hours. Once it's light. Did the aftershock ski? I think they did then because we never knew whether they were going to be another big one or not. And some of [00:06:30] them did end up being quite big. So now I wouldn't think twice about it like Oh, God, whatever. And then we were like, Oh, my God, what's going to happen next? It could be worse. You never know. Because had there been a lot of earthquakes in Christchurch prior to this? Have you ever experienced just a few really small ones? Like nothing compared to what we felt, but just the odd one People had come into work. Oh, do you feel the earthquake earthquake last night And it would be like a 2. 2 or something. Oh, the light. The light bulb [00:07:00] was swaying, so I never felt anything like it. But I know that, um, there have been a few I can't remember any. So the morning rolls around, daylight comes up. What do you do then? Um, I went outside to have a look. Really? I'm a bit nosy. Wanted to see if anyone's house was mounted. But just the neighbours that I knew just want to see if they're OK. Look for the cats, that sort of thing. And everybody was sort of out on the street by then. Just having a bit of a chat. So how's your house? Are you [00:07:30] OK? No one had power. So a couple of people had fires and they were making cups of tea for people and stuff like that, which was nice. And people are starting to pick stuff up in their houses. We're still having aftershocks, though, so we we get too far. Was there any form of communication like phone TV radio? No. Cell phones came on pretty quickly. Oh, compared to february anyway, it wasn't [00:08:00] too bad. There was radio, which was all right. Um, I think I had cell phone back by midmorning About 11 o'clock. Um, yeah, listening to the radio in my car, and that was pretty much it. Trying to get hold of my parents who said we only use our cell phone and emergency, so it's turned off. The 7. 1 earthquake is obviously not an emergency. Bloody old people. Oh, my God. [00:08:30] I thought you were dead. Yeah, but I had to go on to work at eight. So I didn't Really? Yeah. Lucky me. Working in a warehouse at that point. So he had to go on and assess the damage and pretty much everything was on the floor. But there wasn't really a lot we could do at home anyway, right? We were sort of just pottering around picking up a few things and did a couple of hours of that, and I got a call from work. So I just went and just started picking [00:09:00] up stuff there instead. And I think it was actually good to be out of the house and away from the panic. It sort of gave us something to do, which was good with your house and in your area. Were there houses that were actually kind of structurally damaged, or was it more just stuff falling over? I think we're pretty lucky in our area at that time. Um, I know my workmates house lost. He lost his chimney and part of the roof just from the chimney, falling in a few houses. Had a wee bit of damage, but they're usually pretty good they were liable anyway, They weren't anything [00:09:30] really major, so we were lucky. Our house was pretty much OK. The front door didn't shut. But no, who cares? The overall kind of emotional response to that first earthquake. How how did you feel? Was it kind of scared Anxious or did it trying to remember some kind of like a hard ass about it now. So I'm trying to remember what I was actually thinking at the time. Um, I don't think I really thought it was anything too major, [00:10:00] like for me personally, me and the people I care about, we're all pretty lucky. So I didn't really know anyone who got hurt or no one's house really got damaged that badly. So it didn't really affect me as much as I thought it would. I think I was just pissed off more than anything because of work. And it was just a major clean up job at work. And I was like, Oh, this is gonna suck so apart from that and just getting aftershocks through the night. So we weren't really sleeping that well, [00:10:30] so everyone was sort of just a little bit more grumpy than we normally would be when your cell phone came back on. Did you have heaps of messages from people saying, you know? Are you OK? And yeah, mostly from people I know overseas. Who heard it? She made news pretty much everywhere. Haven't heard from you. Hope you're not dead. There's lots of those. Please text me back. And eventually one from mum saying we're OK. Thanks, Mum. They they were able to turn the cell phone on. Yeah, [00:11:00] good on them. What about even kind of navigating around Christchurch when you were going to work? Was that tricky? Or I mean, was the ion happening and we didn't actually get much over our side of town at that time. So it wasn't too bad. It was more people just panicking. And then other nosy people who wanted to see damage. I went for a drive to the middle of town just to see, you know, what? It was like a bit messy, but And it was more people [00:11:30] just panicking and like, Oh, my God, we're not gonna be able to get petrol ever that sort of thing. So yeah, So were were there many people kind of sightseeing? Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, I think they just looked at the mess in the house and thought, No, not dealing with that right now. I might as well go and see what everyone else is up to. It was a bit of a mission. It was sort of like a mess you just don't want to have to deal with. And it's just still dirt and cooking oil and washing powder. I was like, Oh, no, [00:12:00] I have to go and look at something else since did. So How long did it take for you to clean up the place? I don't like mess, So it probably took me a couple of days just after work on the weekend. It wasn't too bad that and my flatmate wasn't working. I think so. He just cleaned up and you got the oven back into the fridge. Washing machine, Massive washing machine. Yeah, oven everything back. And we had power back pretty early, so she wasn't that bad. So the aftershocks did they just [00:12:30] continue to happen after September? We had a few around five Mark and they're pretty. That's big enough. Where we sort of stop for a second. Dead still and think Is this gonna be another big one? Anything smaller than that? And we'll just stop for a second. Oh, that was a decent one. And off we go. But the bigger ones, we just never know because it sounds exactly the same as when the big ones hit. They all start out the same way, and that's that's the scariest noise for me now [00:13:00] is just hearing an earthquake coming? It's just horrible. What does it sound like? It sounds like a truck's coming past. It's just this sort of like rumbling sound. So now, pretty much every time a truck drives past me anywhere, I just stop like an earthquake trains or anything. I just like Oh my God! So that's quite freaky, actually, it still affects us like that, and it affects everyone. Even when I was overseas last year, I was in America and a truck drove past and I just froze and it was like earthquake [00:13:30] and my friends were just staring at me like what is he on drugs? So that's how it starts off. How does the sound change? Um, I don't really know. I think the sound starts, and then when everything starts shaking. We just sort of forget about the sound and they go, Oh, bugger. I think most of us don't even bother getting under the doorways or under things anymore. We just can't be bothered. We did the first time. And then, yeah, the aftershocks. We did the first few times and then thought, [00:14:00] Oh, no, can't be bothered. You just stay really still. And unless it gets worse, we just stay there and then we carry on. After that September earthquake, it was as if, um, I remember in the media that they were saying, Oh, you know, Christchurch has miraculously escaped with no injuries. Did a little, uh, weren't we really fortunate Somebody was smiling on us? Was there any thought that there was gonna be a, uh, another big one coming up and that would cause so much damage? I think the scientists, [00:14:30] the pessimistic scientists, are always saying that they're still saying that now Oh, you're going to get a nine, something like that. But there's no point in thinking about it. A few people I know did get quite emotionally invested in the whole earthquake thing, and they kind of obsess over it on what's gonna happen next, But I think the rest of us would rather just get on with it because it's gonna hit. If it's gonna hit, there's nothing we can do. All we can do is just make sure we've got our civil defence kits ready and try to be as safe as we can and [00:15:00] that that's what we can do now. So, yeah, they are still saying we're going to get another one and they were saying the whole time. Oh, this could be the first in a series of big earthquakes, but I don't think we really wanted to know about it then. I don't think we do now, either. It's not worth worrying about. So did you have a civil defence kit prior to the September 1? Yeah, which is amazing, because I'm not usually that growing up, but, um, it smashed in the earthquake because the bookcase fell on it, which was ironic and quite funny. Actually, the bookcase fell [00:15:30] on our civil defence kit. That's quite funny. Except now we have no water. OK, I had to laugh, though it was just irony at its best. So almost six months later, on the 22nd of February, there was another big earthquake. I think it was about 6. 3. Where were you for that? I was at work pretty much the centre of town. Slightly east. They got hit pretty hard. Um, I was driving a forklift down an aisle [00:16:00] of well, either side of the aisle were stacked up 205 litre drums of oil. So that was scary. That didn't actually fall down, But I was incredibly lucky. Um, you know, the whole forklift was just rolling from side to side, and I was like, What do I do now? So I had a set, and that that was absolutely terrifying. Um, yeah, there was liquefaction pouring out of the ground, and the ground was all cracked. And, you know, the truck that I was working on was just rolling [00:16:30] from side to side, and it was a massive truck, so that was terrifying, like, a million times worse than September 1. And it was during the day, so more people were out and about, which was really unfortunate when you were in the forklift. Could you actually hear the earthquake coming? Or I didn't hear it coming because I was on the forklift, which is pretty noisy. So first thing I knew everything was just shaking and rolling backwards and forwards. It was pretty scary, like the whole. [00:17:00] The forklifts are pretty stable, but that was I just had to brace myself. It nearly tipped over, so that was scary. Really scary. How many people were working in the warehouse? Probably about what would have been about six of us there at the time. Now it's a big open yard with, I think, three different warehouses and an office. I was the only person in that one, and there were a few others scattered around a couple of shipping containers that would have been quite scary, too. [00:17:30] Those things, the whole shipping containers are moving, and all the stuff was just falling down. That must be really surreal where the the whole everything around you is just in a state of movement. It was pretty freaky. Was there nothing holding up those drums? Or were they just staying there by themselves, staying there by themselves? And that was because they were so heavy pellets about a tonne. So anything lighter would have been over, like all the other stuff that we had in the warehouse like toilet paper and stuff stacked up that was just everywhere. [00:18:00] So if they had actually fallen over, would that have been pretty much curtains for you? Or I don't know how much the roll cage on a forklift can take, but if a whole pallet of them have fallen over, that would have been pretty nasty. I imagine I would have at least dented it, and I could have been quite unlucky. If my forklift had fallen over and a drum had fallen on me, I'd be dead. So it was scary. So when that's happening, what's going through your head? I hope I don't have to stay [00:18:30] at work pretty much like Please don't make me stay at work. So I just started freaking out. I thought, This is so much worse than the last one. Our house is going to be absolutely muted. I wonder what the cats are doing. I wonder what my flatmates doing. I wonder if my parents are OK and I just wanted to get home pretty much so. We've already been through one earthquake, so we had that sense of impending doom, really, and it seemed a lot longer because it was so bad. Some people [00:19:00] say, like in accidents, how time kind of just slows down and everything's in slow motion, Do you? Was that a kind of feeling you had? Yeah, it was horrible. It seemed like a lot longer than it actually was. And what about the noise? It was pretty extreme because all the concrete was ripping up and there was liquefaction just pouring out of the ground and you could hear people screaming, which was horrible. People from the place across the road from us screaming and all my workmates swearing and me swearing and [00:19:30] yeah, stuff crashing over everything. Cars. Had you ever experienced liquefaction before? No. That is really weird, isn't it? It's freaky stuff. It's just a nightmare. So it literally does concrete, you know, does paving just kind of turn into a liquidy kind of thing? Yeah, the ground just splits open, and this mud liquid mud just comes up. It's just nuts, and it just comes pouring out like a geyser. It's crazy, [00:20:00] and I saw cars just face down. They're just driven into this big pool of liquefaction and yeah, it's crazy. And lamp posts are just halfway down the hole. And yeah. So where you were, How how deep was the liquefaction? Probably about six inches to a foot, right through the yard and through the warehouses and stuff. And so suddenly you find yourself walking through, like a Fort Worth of [00:20:30] muddy slush. Can you Can you describe what that kind of slush was, like? Just like, really, really wet, slightly mud? Pretty much, Yeah. I've never really seen anything like it since. It's just crazy stuff. We didn't really know what to do because it just kept coming. When's it gonna stop coming out? When can we start cleaning up and try to go home? Because we just didn't know when it was going to stop or if it was gonna stop. So just going back to the kind of instance after the earthquake, what was the first thing you did? [00:21:00] Uh, I ran into the middle of the yard and tried to find my workmates, and we all sort of met up in the middle of the yard and thank God everyone was all right. And then we stood there and swore a little bit and then tried to think of a game plan. What are we going to do? Obviously we want to get home. But the electric gates were broken and to try to secure all the buildings and stuff. So we sort of sat there for about 10 minutes and just got our breath back and said Right, OK, we're all OK now. What are we gonna do? Everyone was trying to ring out, but yeah, no cell reception. [00:21:30] We talk about for an hour to secure the site. Enough that we could all go home. Then I had to try to get home, which was a mission, because my area was hit really hard in February. So it took me about an hour and a half to get home. It would normally take me about 10 minutes, and the roads were just completely torn up, all lumpy and full of liquefaction, and all the traffic lights were out and everything. It was actually really heartbreaking. Just seeing people standing in the driveways, watching the liquefaction pour into their house and [00:22:00] not really knowing what to do. But thankfully, I was up on the hill a little bit, so our house didn't have any liquefaction, but yeah, even down the bottom of our street. It was pretty bad. Can you describe for me the journey from your workplace back home? Because I'm assuming that there's a lot of people trying to move around. And I mean, were you were you driving a car or how were you getting years driving a car? And I've only got a little Nana car, so I didn't really cope that well, So I was just hoping I made it home in one piece, and then when I got [00:22:30] there, my house would still be there. So going through the city streets, I mean, what did you see? Um, pretty much just this big trail of destruction. I didn't really know what to expect. But there were houses that were almost completely over, and roofs and chimneys and stuff. Uh, fences had fallen over. Walls have fallen down, liquefaction just pouring into people's houses and shops and stuff. Lots of car crashes, a lot of fences fallen into [00:23:00] parked cars and things like that and lots of people running and crying, which was horrible. Where were they running to? I think that most people are just trying to get home. I just wanted to get home a lot of emergency sirens, lots of car alarms and stuff like Every time we get an aftershock and the car starts shaking, it's just this cacophony of car alarms, pretty much and fire engines and police cars and stuff. Ambulances. [00:23:30] A lot of people crying, a lot of people swearing and not again. We already thought this stuff was over by now, but everyone was still remarkably upbeat, which is a bit scary, actually upbeat. In what way? What's the That's over. You know, we've We've had the earthquake. What are we gonna do? So we all sort of banded together, which was really cool and sort of helped each other out where we could. It was good. So you're driving [00:24:00] back home and you're coming to a couple of areas that you that's your neighbourhood. Can you describe for me what kind of damage you're seeing? Um, a lot of fences down, a lot of liquefaction down the bottom of the hill. Um, a lot of roof tiles missing, that sort of thing. Few car accidents. That's pretty much it. It was pretty. I think the inside of people's houses were damaged [00:24:30] more than the outside in a lot of cases, so it didn't look like it looked a lot worse than September, but it didn't look anywhere near as bad as it actually was. So you got back to your place, and And how did you find it? It was still upright, but not really in a very good kind of way. Um, it had moved. There was a big crevasse, right diagonally right through a property about probably 2 ft wide. And I couldn't see the bottom of it. Except to see the smashed sewer pipes. Of course, which made me really happy. [00:25:00] No toilet. Um, And that went right under my bedroom, which was freaky. Like, I don't want to go to bed. Um, it had moved off its piles down the hill a little bit. Um, probably about nearly your foot. Probably about 89 inches. Um, apart from that, it didn't actually look that bad. Um, we're still upright, apart from the crazy Creve in the middle [00:25:30] of the lawn. Um, we didn't actually notice it was off its piles. We didn't really go around the back. We just sort of tried to get inside. The front door was wide open. Um, yeah. So first impressions, it wasn't actually that bad, so I just sort of wandered up and then saw the mess inside. And that was probably wasn't any worse than the last time, but the floor was pretty muted. The whole house was it twisted? Completely. So none of the doors [00:26:00] really shut. Um, couldn't get the bathroom door shut or the front door. Some of the piles under the middle of the lounge had gone, So you couldn't really walk across the floor that the whole thing sagging, which was pretty creepy. People wouldn't come visit us. Um, even when my cat walked across, you could feel it. Or if she jumped off the coffee table onto the ground, the whole house would shake. So that was pretty freaky. Um, yeah. No water. Um, yeah. [00:26:30] The drain next to our house erupted. So that was some nice sewage for us. Awesome. Try to keep the cats out of that. That's fun. Yeah. So that was Yeah. We got hit pretty hard that time. The the cats. I mean, did they did they run away and come back or how did how did they cope with the earthquake? Uh, yeah, they both ran away. Um, we slept in the backyard that night because we couldn't sleep in our house because it was just terrifying. [00:27:00] Um, yeah, My cat came back about halfway through the night and decided to jump on the outside of the tent and scare the crap out of us. But that's my cat for Alex's cat. Came back in a couple of days, I think. Yeah, we just kept going back outside and waiting, and eventually she came back. So that initial thing when you drive up to the house, you look at it, you start looking inside. Did you ever think I'm not? I'm just not going in here because it was too muted. No, not really. [00:27:30] Should be worried about that sort of thing. But not really. I just wanted to make sure some of my price positions were OK and they weren't. So Then I got upset. But apart from that, I that I need to go and just check things out and make sure the cats actually went inside when it hit because, yeah, that would suck. Just wanted to see how bad things were, but we had some pretty nasty aftershocks pretty soon afterwards. So they were, Yeah, I've been running outside every time. One of those hit I thought I just [00:28:00] hung around, smoked a couple of cigars cos I really needed it. And, um, I waited for my flatmate Alex to get home, and then he came and looked at the house, said, Where are the cats? We just looked at the inside of the house and with how bad the aftershocks were that time, we thought, There's no point picking anything up because the aftershocks are still like 5. 85 0. 9. It's just it's not worth picking anything up. So how often would they be happening? Probably every 20 minutes, half an hour. Cos I didn't really get much [00:28:30] sleep for a few days. They were pretty bad. But we just, uh, both of us really like old people. We think old people are cool. So yeah, we saw, like quite a few live down the bottom of our street. So we just sort of went down and helped them shovel liquefaction and stuff because it's just heartbreaking. Just seeing old people, you know, it's the house, they're retiring and and they're just thinking our house is muted and, you know, they can't really look after themselves that well, So we went out to help them out. There's nothing we can do at our place. We're not. We don't have liquefaction, [00:29:00] so we might as well just do something else. Be productive. Help some people out. How were the older people coping with they? I think they were quite lost. I didn't really know what to do. Like you never prepared for anything like that. And this liquefaction was just pouring into their houses and they just they had their shovels and, you know, there were some of them, probably like, 90 they shouldn't have to deal with that sort of stuff. Their life should be easy for them. So [00:29:30] yeah, a lot of them were just sort of standing there or doing their best, but they just didn't really know how to cope with it. Was there much kind of community? Um kind of getting together and and helping older people like that? Yeah, Everyone was really, really good. I was quite impressed because for some reason, my neighbourhood is quite insular. We didn't really talk to each other that much, but Everything changed after the earthquake, so it was pretty good. We sort of made friends with a few people on the street. We never met before, even though we lived there for two years, [00:30:00] especially the old people just sort of checking in on them and saying, you know, you need a hand with anything and that was really, really good. Everyone was pretty good. Anyone who had a fire was making huge big pots of tea and cups of coffee for people. And everyone was just sort of sharing what they had, which was really nice at this stage. You had no power? No, we didn't have power for two weeks. Yeah, fun. [00:30:30] That must be quite a weird mindset to be in because, I mean, we're in quite a developed country, and we've got power and sewage and water. And then to have all that taken away, Yeah, because we lost it for half a day. I think in September, that was bad enough. No Internet for six hours, and then we just had nothing, you know, going to the toilet in bags and garden and just it was [00:31:00] horrible. There was a water tanker parked down the bottom of our street. At the primary school, which was good, we had to go down and fill up our water there, and we still had to boil it hand sanitizer. No one had a shower for like a week, but thankfully, the west side of the city didn't get hit very hard, and most of them still have power. So a lot of us had just sort of hit over to family or friends over there and have a shower every couple of days. The rest of the time, it's sort of like a bucket with a flannel in the bathroom, which was really gross. [00:31:30] Oh, it's disgusting. But even things like boiling water, I mean, some people, I guess, wouldn't have the ability to even do that. Yeah, we just had a camp stove, which is again impressive, because I'm not usually that grown up, but it was sort of like cold washes because all the effort it takes to boil the water, you don't want to use it for washing. We didn't get to do our laundry for a couple of weeks. What about food? We didn't do too badly. We had quite a big stockpile, but [00:32:00] our local supermarket was muted. Actually, probably the closest five or six supermarkets were all muted, so we had to drive quite a long way to get food. It was like a three hour drive. It would normally take about 20 minutes, but it was taking up to three hours to get there because all the roads that people would normally take were all muted and closed off. So the ones that were open, just completely congested. It would take so long to get anywhere. But I didn't have much choice. There wasn't really much fresh food to be had for a while. [00:32:30] Um, we were driving way out to the west of the city just to get food, and even then we were still thinking, Well, we can't really cook. So what are we gonna do? It's mostly baked beans and noodles, and stuff like that must also be quite weird to be in a suburb that was hit and then to be able to drive with a wee bit and and you're into places that were damaged. But my brother's place, 20 minute drive away. You never even know there was an earthquake. He had Internet water, toilet I was so pissed [00:33:00] off, so uncool. But yeah, my parents are hit even worse than I was. They were right in there in the red zone, so they had absolutely nothing. Their house is mounted. So yeah, we're all off to my brother's place every couple of days and going to my auntie's place to do a load of washing. We like a five minute shower each because even people who did have water had to ration it pretty carefully. That it was that the miracle [00:33:30] of the flushing toilet. I went to my brother's place like, Can I borrow a toilet? This is so cool. It's amazing. I even now I still appreciate having a flushing toilet you're using the word muted quite a bit, and I'm wondering, where did that come from? Because a lot of people in Christchurch say that. Do you know where it kind of originated from? Um, so what? I used to use a lot when I was a kid, like 12 13. 0, it's muted and also like the cool word to use then so early nineties kind of thing. But there is no other [00:34:00] way to describe it at the moment. either muted or bug it. It's really the only way to describe a lot of the city. It's quite definitive, I think muted. It's got a real kind of full stop. Yeah, sound. I think Bob Parker even used it. Christchurch is Ted, which it is. It's just Yeah, it's a bit of a mess. Did you have much to do with, um, like the emergency services [00:34:30] or the the council services? Were they quite, um, rapid in getting stuff to you guys? They were actually pretty good. Um, not so much at my place. But I know with my parents, they were really, really good. Like, within a couple of days, they were coming around with care packages and stuff, which was really cool. Um, I think in the first, probably about a week after the earthquake, we had the Red Cross come round to our place and do a little survey to see if we were coping ok mentally and whether we had access to the things that we needed. [00:35:00] So that was pretty cool. Yeah, that was about it, though, but yeah, I think the emergency services were pretty onto it. They they treated my parents really well. And do you think people were coping mentally? I think people were because they didn't have a choice. I think immediately after the earthquake, people are coping a lot better than they were a couple of months down the track. It was definitely the case for me at the time. We were just in survival mode watch list Did we have? We've just got to get it sorted. But a couple [00:35:30] of months down the track when everything's still muted, still getting aftershocks, Some people still don't have power. We're just over it by then and two months of not much sleep and everyone was just getting really, really pissed off. I think everyone was just on edge all the time. Um, I know a lot of people who are normally quite anxious, people who become incredibly anxious. I became a bit more anxious, a lot more frustrated. It just takes less time for people to get irritated [00:36:00] and we tend to snap at each other a little bit more and it still even now we still get it. We just because everything nothing's the same and there's still stuff that's just really frustrating. Like looking on Google Maps and it tells you to go through the centre of town and you can't. And it's no this. Yeah, there's always stuff that we still can't do. But you're right. Afterwards, people were just getting snapping at each other and we would still banding together. But everyone was just really tired. And No-one really felt safe and secure anymore. [00:36:30] We just didn't know what was gonna happen thinking, Well, September was bad. This one was worse. What's gonna happen next? So we're trying to sort it out, you know, good kiwis to sort of get on with things. But it was pretty rough for a while there for your friends that maybe were a bit anxious. Was there any kind of medical, um, help they could get? Was that was Was that easily accessible? Yeah, it was actually pretty good. Um, I know a few people who got prescriptions for anxiety medication counselling, [00:37:00] that sort of thing. So I went to a bit of counselling myself. I thought I might be coping a little bit too well, thinking there's got to be something going on there. So I went to counselling, just sort of made sure I was doing all right. And do you think? Is that one of the signs that actually you, you know, outwardly you appear to be coping kind of better than expected. Yeah, Yeah, because I am prone to depression and anxiety. So I thought I should be pretty well mounted by then as well, [00:37:30] but I was fine. Well, yeah, but yeah, it turned out I actually was quite quite upset. So counselling was a good thing just to make sure I was doing all right, actually accepted how I was feeling realised that it was actually OK, because it's always the sort of situation there is always someone who's worse off than me. None of my family or friends died, and I know people who died, and that was really sad. But it was no one I was really close to. I my [00:38:00] house didn't completely fall down even though we had to move out because we couldn't live in it. Um, I was pretty lucky. So I felt sort of guilty for feeling upset about it. Yeah, well, so many people are worse off than me. Why am I feeling like crap? But not everyone handles things in their own way, so the house that you were in. Did you? Did you own it or were you renting it? And how did that work in terms of you and the landlord? I think he wanted us to stay because [00:38:30] he needed the rent and all of our other his other properties were completely stuffed, so she really needed the money. But it just wasn't We couldn't just couldn't live there. We stayed for probably a week after the earthquake, and he sort of grudgingly gave us a reference and said, Oh, yeah, OK, you can move out because we hadn't given the 21 days notice, Because why would you Really? Yeah, he was. You turn into a bit of a idiot [00:39:00] after we moved out. Like getting the bond back and stuff. How can you even like no one's gonna live there? But he wanted us to do a garden and stuff. So it's a bit crevasse. No one's gonna live here. There's no toilet. There's no power. You're not going to rent it out. So why are we doing the garden? But we just wanted our bomb back, so we just got on with it. What was it like trying to find a new place to live. Thankfully, we got onto it pretty early and we were looking probably two or three days after [00:39:30] the earthquake and we saw a house and sprayed in that said, no earthquake damage. And we just rang up that day. Went around that day, paid the bond that day, and we moved in a few days after that while everyone else was still panicking and going. Oh, no, I thought right. Housing is gonna be the premium. Let's move now. So we got into a new place, pretty hassle free. Actually, it was easy. And that was the selling point. You know, that there was no earthquake damage. You had a toilet [00:40:00] you had. Yeah, we knew the spray and hadn't been hit that hard in either of them. There was damage, like the house has a few cracks and that sort of thing, and the bathroom door opens by itself, which is a bit disturbing sometimes, but it's it's pretty good. It's a really, really old house. It's built 1900 or something, and it stood up better than most of the new houses. Did things like rent increase because of the the the premium on the housing. Yeah, I think we're paying $30 a week [00:40:30] more than the last tenant was, which is pretty rough. We pay quite a lot for where we are, but it's a nice enough house, and we're not going to get any better for that sort of money in Christchurch at the moment. So, yeah, it's a nice area. So it is. I think the rent is quite high at the moment, though. People are paying a lot more than they normally would. But if they want to stay in Christchurch, it's just what you gotta do. What is the housing market like now? Do you know, like for rentals? There's not much [00:41:00] out there like just trying to find somewhere to live. I saw an article in the paper where some people living in their cars because they even though they work, they just can't afford a place somewhere. That's decent, anyway, Um, so they're living in their cars or they're just living at hostels and that sort of thing, it's just the rent for even a one bedroom place is like 200 something a week, and if you're working for minimum wage you just can't do it. I mean, even now, there's only two of us living in our place, and we can barely make it. And I work full time, [00:41:30] so that sucks. Not much money. And what kind of rent are you paying at the moment? Uh, 3 30 a week or a three bedroom, Which is it doesn't sound that bad in the grand scheme of things, but there are only two of us, and Yeah, Alex lost his job in the earthquake, and he's only just got it back in the last couple of months. What was he doing? Um, he was managing a gay cruise club, all right, in the centre of town, on the top [00:42:00] floor of a building. So that's where he was when the earthquake hit. Lots of naked men running down the stairs and lots of naked women from the massage parlour across the road. I can be for scared people. He, um he was actually on the front page of the paper the next day. Um, you could see him trying to walk home as all the buildings were collapsing around him. It was a pretty epic picture. Actually. It's quite scary. thinking, You know, that's my best friend right there and all the stuff falling down behind him. [00:42:30] So, yeah, he was a bit of a mess for a while, which is understandable. Ahead up. It was a lot more scary for him, and they're trying to keep everybody in town and let him a square. And he had to literally run away from the police and trying to make him stay there. And he's like, No, I have to go home. So he walked all the way home, which is quite a long way. It's about probably took him like an hour and a half to get home. I think it's interesting that that kind of just primal desire to get home, make sure the friends [00:43:00] and the cats are OK. Then the parents after that, Firstly, so do you. Do you think it's had a long term effect on Alex? Um, no, I don't think so, Not really, but it's more just irritating. Now that stuff's still not open, and we're still really, you know, there's nowhere to hang out in town, that sort of thing. It's just annoying, really. But [00:43:30] yeah, we're both OK. It was just sucked for a while after the earthquake because he lost his job and I still have mine. My job sucked because I was picking up stuff after the earthquake. It was horrible, like picking up muddy boxes of tissues and stuff. But then he had the added pressure of money and trying to find somewhere to live when you don't have a job and you're trying to find a bond and that sort of thing. And luckily, both of us had some savings, so we could afford to just move. But yeah, money was a big factor for both of us for a while. [00:44:00] But we both got grants from the Red Cross, so that was quite cool. You got $500 each to help pay the bond and rent in advance and food, that sort of thing. So Alex was working. It was a It was a gay kind of cruise club sauna type thing. Did the earthquake knock out a lot of kind of gay and lesbian venues? Pretty much all of them, actually. All of them at town. So every single one [00:44:30] was gone. So what did people do for a while? We didn't really do anything um we just focused on being ok, making sure we had somewhere to live, work, that sort of thing. But, you know, a few months down the track we like. Now what do we do? There's nowhere to go. And it doesn't bother me because I don't go out anywhere anyway. Um, that you Cruise was closed. Me and friends was closed, everything was shut down. So I think there [00:45:00] have been a few, if I remember correctly, which is unlikely. There have been some dance parties and that sort of thing there have been, Yeah, just sort of big gay parties. Um, I think a couple of cruise clubs opened a bit more bit further out. There are a couple around in Walston, and Alex's ones just opened up in Walston as well. Um, people need their casual sex after earthquakes. Obviously. Um, but it's been pretty rough because Christchurch [00:45:30] is queer. Scene has been pretty. People don't really try very hard. They put a lot of effort into the queer scenes, so it was kind of floundering anyway, I think, except for cruise, which is always popular. Um so, yeah, after the earthquake, it just pretty much went completely underground for quite a while. But Cruise is open now, so people hanging out there and starting to do things around the edges again, back doing all the sort of groups that we used to do, like the tramping group and cycling and [00:46:00] that sort of thing. So that's cool. How do you think, Um, the earthquakes have affected the queer community down here? I'd like to say that it banded us together, but I don't think it really did. I think we're pretty much the same as we were before. Um, in some ways it's brought us closer because everybody knows everyone else because it's Christchurch. Um, we all know someone who died pretty much, and that's quite it's a bit of a reality check, Really. Um, [00:46:30] yeah, I think everything. I think people maybe are not quite as into going out as much as they used to be there. Really, there is only Cruise that's open now, and we all got used to if we wanted to hang out with other queer people, we had to go to people's houses, have barbecues, that sort of thing, and we tend to still do that quite a bit rather than sort of just head to cruise because that's what everyone always does. So I think that's quite good, because I'm a bit of a nano and I don't really like clubs [00:47:00] and late nights and drinking and stuff so so hanging out more casually is something that I enjoy. So that's good for me. It's quite interesting, even just around this area where we're staying. I've really noticed that the people around here have done it really hard. You know, they they they look like they've had a really miserable time. I think immediately after the earthquake, the sale of alcohol went up quite a lot. Because what are people gonna do? Get drunk? Um, but now [00:47:30] we're just tired. Even now it's still Well, I'm still tired because it still affects us all the time. We still hear about it on the news. Just about every day. Something with the E QC. They're knocking down this building. They're doing that building and red zone people arguing about the government offer. And, uh, you can't get away from it, right? Pretty much if I didn't read the paper or listen to the news, I would never know there'd been an earthquake because I live in an area that's not really damaged [00:48:00] and my work's not damaged because I've got a new job. Um, but you we always hear about it. And personally, I'm quite sick of hearing about it because it doesn't. I kind of feel selfish because it doesn't really affect me personally, so I really don't care anymore. I'm just over it, but yeah, I sort of have to be a bit involved because my parents are building a new house and they got bought out, and helping them move from the land of destruction over in the East was pretty. That was rough. It's just like a ghost town over there now. There's no [00:48:30] one living there. It's interesting. Well, I mean, even around this area, you know, walking down the streets, it's peppered with houses that are just completely overgrown. I've just been kind of left, haven't they? It's not Yeah, yeah, my parents areas like that. I drove through it last weekend just to see what it was like, and they moved out a few weeks ago. Um, there's no one living on the street anymore, and the grass is all overgrown and stuff It's really sad because people used to really take pride in their houses over there. Especially everything was immaculate. It was a street full of old people. [00:49:00] The gardens were all perfect, and now everything is just all overgrown. It's really depressing. There's still big mountains and liquefaction everywhere. It's horrible. So which area were they in? They were in New Brighton, so they hit pretty hard. I mean, the house looks like it's fine, but the land is bunted or the concrete pad the house is on, I think. And my dad was saying, It's a shame to have to move out because, you know, 95% of the world's population will be happy to have a house like this, Like on the inside. You couldn't [00:49:30] really tell, but we did some measurements outside, and it dropped about 20 centimetres down one side. So it was Obviously I couldn't fix it, But it's a shame to move out, because really, it looked like there wasn't much wrong with it. Yeah, it was quite depressing, especially for my mom. She found that quite hard because they bought their house to retire into, and they put a lot of work and money into getting it the way they would like it. And now they have to build again. And they're like, 60 they just don't want to. But what choice do they have? Was [00:50:00] it a hard decision for them to, like, accept the government offers or no. Well, it wasn't really gonna get any better. They couldn't stay where they were basically had, like, I think, nine months to move out. And the price of land was just going to go up. So they thought, right. We just get in, just buy the land, Just get the ball rolling before other people start building their houses and just do it. I'm guessing that if you don't get in early with this kind of stuff, the the wait time for actually even some [00:50:30] some kind of building. I mean, it would just be a Yeah, I know some people who are still, um, haven't accepted the government offer or they have, but they haven't decided where they're going to build yet, because maybe something better will come up. But maybe I won't. So I think they should get on to it. But then again, it's not me having to make that decision. So it's easy for me to say, What do you think of the media coverage? The the the kind of national media coverage of Of the Quakes? [00:51:00] Um, I get sick of people feeling sorry for us. That's really irritating. At first it was nice, because, really, our lives sucked pretty much for a while. But now I'm just, Well, people don't really feel sorry for us anymore. But it's all really political, which I don't really. It's not really the point. The point is to get Christchurch back up and running. Not what the mayor said versus this guy. E QC Let everyone blame the E QC. I mean, I don't know how much we can honestly expect from them, [00:51:30] and they've never had to deal with this before, either. So everyone's just sort of doing this for the first time. But he has always seemed to be some sort of complaining, going on about something, and they knocking down this building and the engineers don't want to because of this and are only over it. So, like in terms of heritage buildings in Christchurch, uh, do you have any thoughts about whether they should be trying to be kept or I think it's really sad. Um, I get quite upset because I really like history and that sort of thing. So I get [00:52:00] I get upset when they have to knock one over. But at the same time, the rational part of me says, Well, if it's unsafe, we're not gonna be able to enjoy it anyway. So they have to go. They have to go and stuff like that does happen all the time everywhere. So it's not just us. You know. Christchurch isn't just the special place that losing all its heritage buildings, it does happen all the time, and that's how I sort of try to rationalise it. But it does upset me when I drive through town and I don't see half the buildings that have been there for my whole life, [00:52:30] and that's quite rough, so kind of overall. How do you think the earthquakes and the the last year have affected you? How has it changed you? I think there's sort of an underlying fatigue in general, like I'm just really, really sick of it, like I'm still I think, quite a positive person. But I'm also really, really realistic now more than I used to be about, like my own personal limitations. Especially [00:53:00] like if I can't cope with something, I'm pretty realistic about it. Um, I take pretty much every opportunity I can get to get some peace and quiet these days. Uh, it means a lot more to me than it used to, and I always used to like a lot of quiet time, but now I just absolutely crave it. Just time where there are no earthquakes, no one's talking at me. I seem to need that a lot more than I used to. And it's also sort of changed my perspective on a lot of things for me personally. Like my transition, Um, the [00:53:30] September 1 hit two months after I started hormone therapy. Really, it puts things in perspective because two months into my transition, I was complaining on YouTube about how I don't have a bed. Oh my God, I've got one chin here and then really, you have a 7. 1 earthquake and then a 6. 3 and I think really my chin here does not matter at all, so I've become a bit more reasonable and less selfish. about that sort of thing, which is a bonus, because I did tend to obsess about it quite a lot, which I think is quite normal [00:54:00] for people transitioning. But it's really put things in perspective in a good kind of way.

IRN: 567
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/agender_new_zealand.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003970
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089264
TITLE: Agender New Zealand
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Cherise Witehira
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Agender New Zealand; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Cherise Witehira; Christchurch; DSM-5; Māori; addiction; cross dressing; drug abuse; education; family; gender identity; genderqueer; growing up; health; health system; history; homosexual law reform; human rights; identity; labels; organisation; parents; politics; profile; relationships; sex work; sexuality; social; suicide; transgender; transition; transphobia; volunteer; whānau
DATE: 12 May 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Christchurch, Christchurch, Canterbury
CONTEXT: In this podcast Cherise Witehira, president of Agender New Zealand, talks about how the organisation supports transgender people and their families. Cherise also talks about transitioning and some of the issues transgender people face in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm I'm the president of Agenda New Zealand. Um, agenda was, uh, started, um, way back, Uh, in the mid eighties. Um, it was originally called CD rom. Um, cross dresses are real original men. Um, and in order for them to gain funding, they had to, um, extend the the the scope of where [00:00:30] they actually provide support, not just to cross dressers. So they, um, extended that to all trans people. Um, that come under the umbrella of Trans, um, which are cross dresses, Um, transgender, transsexual, transvestite, Um, intersex, Um, and quite a lot of other identities. I mean, I could rattle off quite a few identities off the top of my head, but we could be here for hours. Um um and yeah, we're basically a support and advocacy [00:01:00] organisation for all trans people around all around New Zealand. Why did it start? Um, there was, um, virtually no support, uh, for trans people in New Zealand. Um, but it was originally four cross dressers and only four cross dresses and cross dressers. Never had anywhere to go. Um, for support. Um, a lot of people thought that cross dressing had a lot of sexual connotations. to it. But there are people who, um, just cross dress for [00:01:30] the sake of it. Um, and that's where um, a lot of the support was being put into, um, and there was virtually none, um, back in the eighties, obviously, Um, but, yeah, that was pretty much the reason it was started. And it was started in Christchurch. There was, um one of the groups was started here in Christchurch, but that wasn't until 1996. Um, it started in Wellington back then. Was there [00:02:00] a tension between cross dressers and trans people? Yes. And there still is. What are the tensions? Um, a lot of, um, transgender and transsexual people say that they are not a part of our community. Um, and personally, I don't think that's that's right. Because when people are crossing the gender boundaries, um, that's all that matters, you know, because at the end of the day, we [00:02:30] all started somewhere. Um I mean, I started out as a cross dresser when I was a teenager, um, and started transitioning when I was 17. Um, and a lot of transsexual entrenched gender people really sort of have the idea of them and us, Um, which is kind of separatist in a way, when it comes to people who cross dress because people start out as cross dressers, you don't just wake up one morning and decide. [00:03:00] Oh, I'm going to be a woman or oh, I'm going to be a man. Um and yeah, I. I just think it's ridiculous that there's still that tension there because, I mean, in order for our community to move forward, we need to show unity, and that's just not happening at the moment. So how did that play out within the organisation itself? Because I imagine that would have had quite an interesting dynamic. Yeah. Yeah, Well, um, agendas never really lost the reputation of just being for cross dressers, and it's [00:03:30] still got that reputation. Um, I've sort of been able to, um, quell the fire a little bit, um, and sort of bring agenda into, um, mainstream and all that kind of stuff and it being viewed as the main trans organisation in New Zealand. Um, and that caters to all people. No matter how they identify, um, just all people who cross the gender boundaries, whether they are cross dresser or [00:04:00] trans transsexual, transgender. Whatever. How did you come to the organisation? Um, well, there was quite a lot of, um, arguments going on with an agenda, um, about having Carmen as our patron. Um, there were some who did not believe that she should be our patron. Um, because of her history and her past and her being a show queen. Um, and her being a former sex worker [00:04:30] as well. Um, and quite a lot of, uh, older members of agenda didn't agree with her being patron. Um, so there was a big nationwide call out for memberships. Um, who, um, I was asked by one of the members of agenda who was on the executive of agenda to join so I could vote to keep Carmen as patron. Um, and that's pretty much how I became a member. Um, and I was never really [00:05:00] an active member until, um, I think it was 2010. Um, when I was volunteering for the New Zealand prostitutes' collective, and I, um, there was an invitation sent to my, um, supervisor at NZ PC, um, inviting her along to go to an agenda event here in Christchurch. And she said I think it would be good for you to go along to, um, you know, just to have a look. And I was like, Oh, but [00:05:30] that's a gender, you know? That's for cross dresses. And it's not for me. And so I still think it would be good for you to go along, you know, just to represent NP a and I said to her, Well, OK, I'll do it for that, but no other reason. And then, um, I went along with a lot of questions for the current president, Uh, Dorothy Gartner, and, um before I had even asked any of my questions, she'd answered them. Um, she, uh, reaffirmed that [00:06:00] it does have a bad reputation for only catering to cross dresses, um, and that she was trying to change that, and she done a pretty good job at it, but the reputation was still there, and she invited me along to, um, be on the Board of agenda Christchurch. And that's where I started. Um, being active in agenda. It's really interesting to me the idea of discrimination within parts of the community that have been discriminated against. Why do you think [00:06:30] there is that discrimination still you know, you think that people would be a bit more aware of not discriminating against people? Indeed. Well, um, any sort of group you come across, you know, um, whether they are gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, transsexual, whatever. Um, there's always conflicts of personality, and that's where the main thing comes from. There's no real unity in the ideas, um, and and that's [00:07:00] where a lot of things are being, um, really sort of bad for the community. Because unless we've got unity, we can't really change. And we're pretty much 25 26 years now behind, um, the gay community because, um, you know the homosexual reform Act in 1986. Um, when that was brought in, um, there was, [00:07:30] um you know, there's quite a lot of support for the gay community, but there was, um, still no support for the trans community. Um, because of the arguments that were still going on, um and yeah, we're pretty much 26 years behind the gay community in terms of equality when it comes to that. And that's only because, um, we haven't really, um, been able to, um, sort of gain a lot of support from from the gay community. [00:08:00] There's a lot of them and us when it comes to, um, the gay, the gay community and the trans community. Um and there's, uh, quite a big, um, bridge between the two, which is quite unfortunate. Um, because there was a bit of support, um, from the trans community when the Homosexual Reform Act was going through, Um, there were some within the trans community who had no idea that this was going on and they were just invited to a party to celebrate, You know, the homosexual Reform Act going through And they [00:08:30] thought, Oh, yeah, it's just a party. And then they turned up and they were like, Hey, when did this happen? What? It was illegal, you know, Um and, yeah, so really a lot of lack of information, um, surrounding, um, a lot of things which has made us sort of being forgotten. Really? And we really It's not until um, quite recently that the gay community have really stepped up and said, Yeah, we'll support [00:09:00] you in any sort of fights that you want to do, um, and any causes that you really want to do when it comes to getting equality. Um, especially when it comes to getting unemployed in the legislation because we're not covered, Um, and the law to be equal in New Zealand, unfortunately. What What? Pieces of law Specifically, uh, the Human Rights Act. Um, the, um, attorney General has [00:09:30] said that, um, we are covered under, um, and a gender when it comes to, um, discrimination. It's never been tested, Um, when it comes to that, But, um, for the last few years agenda, um, along with, um, some other groups, like trans advocates and Gender Bridge, um, have been lobbying to the government to get gender identity included in the Human Rights [00:10:00] Act. Specifically included, um, so that we can be assured that we are covered, Um, under New Zealand law. Um, when it comes to equality and discrimination and does that mean that there is discrimination? Absolutely. Absolutely. There's discrimination that goes on every single day. Um, whether it comes to employment and housing, Um, even just like just general, [00:10:30] um, discrimination. A lot of people, um, make a big deal out of meeting somebody who's trans. Um, a lot of people, um, are really quite ignorant when it comes to um, sort of interacting with a trans person, and it could be seen as discrimination. Um, there's a lot of discrimination that goes on within the prisons. Um, a lot of inequalities there, Um, but mostly with employment and housing and healthcare are the three [00:11:00] big, huge things that, um, that really needs to change, because I mean, landlords, for example, in housing, um, they see a trans person, and then they have all these sort of preconceived notions of, like a trans woman being a sex worker, drug addict, all that kind of stuff. And that's due to lack of education and education is another big thing when it comes to, um, discrimination, because, um, trans [00:11:30] identities aren't, um aren't affirmed in schools. Um, and there's no education in schools about trans people. Um, there is some education around, um, other queer identities, like gay, lesbian and bisexual. There's virtually no education. Now, um, at the moment, um, trans people and affirming to trans identifying students who are attending high school that it is ok and that, [00:12:00] um, that it's not bad to be who you are. You know, um and that's something that, um quite a lot of the youth groups are working on, like Utopia Forge. They've got a really good, um, education coordinator there. And Nicholson, um, and Rainbow Youth. And they've got a fantastic education package, Um, that I sometimes use When, um I take my, um, med student classes for the Otago University School of Medicine. Um, [00:12:30] and the Rainbow Youth Package was developed by Priscilla Pike, and she's their, um, education coordinator. And it's a fantastic package. And I think that package should be rolled out, Um, to all the schools, because that package includes trans identities. Um, but there's just virtually no education around it. And that's, um, because of Well, for example, I went to Nelson to, um, speak to, um, some health professionals [00:13:00] there, and I went to go and speak to the Quest Strait Alliance group at Nelson Boys College. And the day before, I, um, was going to go to, uh, Nelson Boys. Um, I got an email from the leader of the QS a there, um, saying that I wasn't allowed to step foot on the grounds. Um, this was, um, told to him by the principal of the school, um, because the principal did not want um to [00:13:30] want the school to be seen as supporting non heterosexual lifestyles. And that just displays the pure ignorance of, um, of a lot of people within an educational, um, facilities. Um, especially when it comes to high schools, because being trans has nothing to do with sexuality. Um, and that's just pure ignorance on their part. And, um, it was quite funny, though, because, um, I had a meeting that very [00:14:00] same day. I was supposed to go to the school with, uh, the public health nurses from around the region. And I said this in our meeting, and there were about 19 of them, and one of them piped up and said, Oh, well, I'm on the PT a the parent teacher association. This is unacceptable. I'm going to have a word with, you know, the PT a and stuff like that. So I mean, I don't know what happened there. I just got her in contact with the leader of the U A. Um yeah, they weren't particularly [00:14:30] happy about that because they work with the school as well, um, and saying that there's quite a lot of schools around, um, like Nelson, especially where they've got, um, quest alliances. Um, like Nelson girls. Um and, um, there's this one high school there. Um oh, for the life of me, I can't remember the name, but it was It's really, really, really supportive, considering the conservative, um, reputation that Nelson's got very small [00:15:00] town, very small minds, but they are actually quite open within the schools. So, uh, Nelson boys was the only sort of, um, bad experience I had with schools because I was able to go to Marlborough boys and Marlborough girls and speak with, um, the faculty at Marlborough Boys. And I spoke to about 20 Marlboro girl students, um, one of whom has started to question her gender. Um, after my talk there, um, and she's currently seeking [00:15:30] support for that, which is fantastic. So what was it like for you going through school? I went to an all boys boarding school. Um, I first started out my first half of the year in third form in a private Catholic school. Um, and that was very, very interesting. Um, because Catholic schools are still teaching. Um, quite draconian ideas, like, do not [00:16:00] use contraception. Sex before marriage is bad. Um, you will go to hell if you do all this. What kind of year? Year nine or 99? Yeah. Um, yeah. And even now they're still teaching those ideas in Catholic schools and then halfway through third form or year nine. Now, um, I was accepted into a private boarding school in Auckland. Um, I managed [00:16:30] to gain a scholarship there, which was fantastic. Um, but it was, um it was hard. It was hard, uh, trying to figure out who I was. Um, because at first, because of the lack of resources around trans identities because of the lack of education and because there was nothing in any mainstream sort of, um, media [00:17:00] or anything whatsoever. Um, around Trans people. I just thought I was gay because that's the only information that was available. Um, and so I really struggled with that. Um, I didn't think it was right, but I thought that was the only way I could be. So I kind of half accepted that, but half. Not because I still enjoyed wearing girls clothes. Um, I'd go home and dress up, [00:17:30] but I'd been dressing up ever since. Well, I can remember. I'm going to my auntie's house when I was 23 years old and putting on my cousin's clothes and stuff. Um, but because that was the only thing that was out there was gay identities. Um, that's what I thought I was. I wasn't particularly comfortable with that identity, but because that's all that was out there, I thought that's what I was. And it wasn't until I left high school and at the end of 2001 and moved in with my grandmother, [00:18:00] Um, where she, uh, done in Wellington. And she'd been in Wellington since the sixties. Um, so she, um, knew quite a lot of trans people. She was friends with Carmen, um, and she was quite heavily involved in the, um, queen party scene in Wellington and stuff like that. And I still had no idea that that existed. Still, Um, and, uh, she invited a friend of hers around, [00:18:30] um, who was Trans and I had no idea. And when her friend left after a cup of tea and biscuits, um, she was like, Do you know what she is? And I was like, What do you mean? And I was like, Oh, she used to be um, male. And I was like, What? That's possible. And it was from then that I never really sort of, um, looked back. [00:19:00] Really? Because, um I mean, I used to cross dress and stuff like that, but I never thought it was possible that you could go with the football and actually develop breasts and get surgeries and all that kind of stuff because there was still quite a lot of taboo around it and hardly any sort of resources or information around at that time. And Google hadn't been developed. Um uh, to as much as it has now, um, so the information [00:19:30] wasn't readily available. Um, And it wasn't until my nan showed me that it was possible that I was like, OK, it's like That's me. That is who I am. You know that Well, that is what I am not who I am, but, yeah, it was from there, but I never really looked back. Can you describe that kind of moment where the kind of light suddenly goes on? Yeah. Yeah. It was definitely an aha moment. Um, as Oprah likes to put it, Um, [00:20:00] it was it was amazing. It just opened a whole new world up to me. Um, you know, realising that something was possible when just 10 minutes early. I never knew that it was possible. You know, um, and I just felt like this huge weight had been lifted off my shoulders that, um, you know, I feeling wrong identifying as gay I could actually start feeling more comfortable in my [00:20:30] own skin. Um, because, um, it just being gay didn't feel right to me. Um, I didn't feel comfortable in that identity, and I started hating myself for it, and I had a lot of body issues. Um, and as soon as I found that out and found out that, you know, it was possible, it was just like freedom. I was like, I was finally free from this jail that had that [00:21:00] I'd been trapped in for, like, 17 years. Did it change your personality or your outlook? No. Oh, gosh, no. Um, I was still the same person. I just became a lot happier. But, I mean, I've always been sort of taking things on the chin and sort of accepted things. So I mean, even though I wasn't comfortable identifying as gay, I sort of still put up, put on a facade, really, of being happy and all that kind of stuff. But [00:21:30] after finding that out, um, I could actually be happy. And it not being a facade, you know? Yeah. Do you think having the kind of, uh, the gay label so prominent you're either kind of straight or you're gay? Did that actually kind of, um, almost, like hinder you in terms of like, working out who you were? Absolutely. Absolutely. Because you're either one or the other. And that's the same with being trans. Um, [00:22:00] you're either one or the other. And that's what a lot of sort of. Well, not a lot. There's a few within the trans community who say you are either a woman or you're a man. Pick one. And that's where a lot of youth get confused because, um, some people don't fit into, um, the binary of either male or female. You know, um, I believe gender is a spectrum, and you can fit in wherever you want along that spectrum. Um, and I think [00:22:30] it's kind of counterproductive for other people to say that you should be this or you should be that because that's pretty much discriminating. You know, um, against somebody's identity, Because everybody identifies however they want, because that's the awesome thing about identity. It's about you and how you identify not how somebody else can tell you how you should identify, or you should be this. You should be that, um and that's where a lot of, um, youth, [00:23:00] um, get into a lot of trouble because, um, especially, um, through, um, a lot of like social media, um, forums. Now, um, there's a lot of people on there who are saying this is the way that you should be. This is the way you should not be. Um, and a lot of trans youth have come to me saying, and he is pretty much, um, at risk of self harming because they are saying that because they don't identify one or the other, they must. [00:23:30] There must be something wrong with them. Um, and damage control for that sucks. So it's really counterproductive for people to say that you should be one or the other, and it being, um um, nowadays, there's a lot more education out there. Well, a lot more resources available with Google, you know, um you can research a lot more. Um, a lot of, um, youth are doing a lot of a lot more research now. Um, whereas [00:24:00] I was just winging it, um, I had no idea where to go, what to do first and stuff like that. But I had my nan by my side. So So So what did you do? How how did you kind of open up? Um, the street on the street. Um, I ended up on the street because, um, I started transitioning while I was going to, um, university. And, um well, it was, um, and [00:24:30] one of the sort of, um requirements to pass. The degree that I was studying was you had to pay either the male or female role on the. Now, I absolutely refused to stand up and do a court on the male role, but I wasn't allowed to do the And so, um, there was a bit of a conundrum there. I couldn't actually pass. I like to say I do, because I know that I could do either. Well, [00:25:00] easily. I've done them both before. Um, but because of the requirements of the to actually stand up and do an assessment to do that. Um, it was the only assessments. I failed. Therefore, I failed to gain my degree. Um, but I like to say I did, because I know I can do the two. No problem if I really, really had to. Um, and because of that, um, I just felt that, [00:25:30] you know, my, um, identity wasn't being affirmed. Um, So I went out looking for other people who were like me, and I found the Vienna Marion strap. And that was a place where, um, I found other people who were like me was like, uh, I knew for me, Um, and being out there, um, really affirmed my identity, especially when it came to men picking me up and paying me money and treating [00:26:00] me like a woman. Or how I thought a woman should be treated. Um, and, you know, really affirmed my identity, and that's what really made me comfortable and really sort of opened up a lot more and come into myself. I mean, there were quite a few things that happened while I was in the sex industry that, um I wasn't proud of, um and but in saying that some of my best memories have been on the street with [00:26:30] the other girls. Um, lots of laughs, lots of fun, lots of drunken debauchery. It was, um it was very interesting. I mean, we could sit here for hours, all the all the little mischief that we used to get up to, but, um, yeah, it it really sort of affirmed me and who I was. Um, and I just felt really comfortable. But then I got trapped in the industry because, [00:27:00] um, I tried gaining employment, Um, as a female, um, and it was just extremely difficult. So I thought this was really the only thing that I could do where I could be myself, um, without any sort of, you know, discrimination. I mean, obviously, I receive discrimination being out on the street from, like, passers by getting bottles thrown at us eggs and stones and rocks and stuff like that. But I mean, [00:27:30] and I, um, normal per se job. Um, you know, you couldn't exactly scream back abuse. Um, whereas out there you could throw a bottle back or throw a rock back or, um, you know, stuff like that. Whereas in sort of like working at McDonald's. You couldn't exactly say Oh, well, if you, you know, keep your bigger I don't care if I didn't get it right, you know, and you couldn't do that. [00:28:00] But, um, that's what I really actually loved about the job. I could actually just sort of, you know, give it back. And that's where I sort of felt I got trapped in it. Um, because I thought that that was the only place that I could actually be myself when it came to employment. Um, it's obviously not the case now, Um, there are some employers who still discriminate because of gender. Um, whether you're male or female as well, [00:28:30] um, especially in male dominated sort of, um, industries. Like when I was in the building controls industry. There was I worked for three months in that industry, and I went out on a building site to do an inspection. Um, and I actually ended up having to call the police because the builder didn't like me telling him how to do his job. So, yeah, I mean, there's still a lot of discrimination for males and females and trans [00:29:00] people, um, within the workplace, but yeah, the sex industry really sort of opened me up. And, um, I came into myself and got a lot more confident, um, with being myself, Um, it was a little bit hard. The hours were a bit, um, working long, long hours, starting at nine o'clock at night and finishing at 6 a. m. some mornings, making a shit load of money. [00:29:30] Um, literally thousands to, um, some nights making like I'd be lucky if I went home with $100 you know? So there was a lot of uncertainty, but it was a lot of fun. It was lots of fun, and I'd never change it, ever. The kind of discrimination that you've come across, do you think? Has it been, like, subtle discrimination, or has it been, like, really in your face? Um, a mixture of both? Definitely. Um, there's a lot of discrimination [00:30:00] that's sort of under the surface, like, um, I mean, a lot of people wouldn't really describe it as discrimination, but, um, you know, like, let's say, for example, a cisgender man or woman. Um, saying Oh, hello, darling. You know, with the limp wrist and all that kind of stuff, and it's like, Oh, you know, whatever. Um, it's really, [00:30:30] really annoying because they make all these assumptions that you're this way inclined and all that kind of stuff and, um, putting me into a box that I don't belong in. Um, and even now, some people still think that I'm just a gay guy in a dress, you know, um, but that's because of the lack of education around trans identities. Um, but yeah, it's and [00:31:00] the full on discrimination. You know, it's like walking down the street, and I'm just getting stares. Um, even just, you know, verbal abuse, you know? Oh, you fucking tranny and Ra ra ra. Just really nasty stuff. Um, and there's a bit, um, of discrimination from, um, Post operative trans people. It's like there's one, who's staying at transition [00:31:30] house at the moment. Who says Oh, well, you know, I'm the only one with a vagina here, so I'm the only real woman here, and it's like, OK, right. You know, you're Trans. Um, and you're saying that you're the only real woman you know, walking around. Oh, well, you know, I'm the only one with the vagina, So if you've got a Penis, you're a man, and it's like, Dude, [00:32:00] get a fucking grip. You know, it's like, Get over yourself. That's Yeah, that's, you know, because she started out a certain way, you know, and she still identified as female at that time. Um, and a lot of them forget that they started out a certain way, and as soon as they get their surgeries, they're, like, almost superior, you know, Um, but in general, [00:32:30] I'd say that the public is quite nice. Um, it's just, um just certain people with certain views. Um, especially when it comes to men. Um, supposedly straight heterosexual men. Um, those ones who I mean being in the sex industry for so long, you sort of learn how to sort of read men a little bit. And you you just can see in their eye. [00:33:00] You know, there's just this look about them that you can just tell whether or not they're giving you, you know, shit and discriminating you and stuff like that. For the most part, the ones who have the biggest problem about it are actually the ones who really want to take you home and sort of fuck you senseless like we want to be, um and that's happened quite a lot, you know? I mean, one time I was in a pub, Um, just casually, um, [00:33:30] and I was getting a lot of shit from this one guy. Um, I was just trying to be the big man in front of his friends, and then I you know, I went to go and leave, um, went to some chip shop, and, um, he comes around the corner and he Oh, I wanna go home. Excuse me? Yeah, and that happens quite a lot. Um, and like with females, um, it's [00:34:00] quite weird. Um, whenever I walk into a room, um, I can pick up on a bit of attention from females. Um, some of them, um, are really quite comfortable with having me in their presence. Um, some of them are quite intimidated for some reason. Um, I've been to, um, a wedding Where, um, there was this girl who had this huge [00:34:30] problem. As soon as I walked into a room, she just tightened her grip on her grip on her partner. And I was like, seriously, not my type. But she was so uncomfortable having me around thinking I was going to try and get into her partner, Um, that she just felt the need to sort of almost be a male and, you know, sort of territory in a in a way, um, and so have, [00:35:00] um, totally not my type, but that's the thing. Um, women and men assume that because I'm Trans, um, I want to get into them. You know, I'm a walking, talking, breathing fetish to a lot of people. Um, because of the, um, misconceptions around trans people. A lot of people still think that we're just, [00:35:30] like, sexual deviant, um, and medically, um, according to the American Psychiatric Association, um, it being a mental illness that is on par with paedophilia, Um, with the DS M five, um, the diagnostic standards of medical care. Um, and we are in the same section as paedophiles, and that's how [00:36:00] we get our diagnosis of being trans and stuff like that. So that's kind of hard to deal with, um, because I think that's discrimination from the medical profession, saying that being trained as a mental illness, Um, because in the past, being gay was in the DS M five, and it was classed as a mental illness as well. Um, and, uh, the [00:36:30] DM five is being looked at next year. And, like, there's a worldwide sort of, um, uh, call for it to be removed from the DS M five. Because when it comes to um gaining gaining the medical care necessary in order to fully transition, you have to be diagnosed with either gender identity disorder or gender dysphoria. I don't like the, um, because saying it's a disorder means there's [00:37:00] something wrong, you know? I mean, there's actually nothing wrong with being Trans and that that just reaffirms to a lot of people that being trans is wrong and that there's a problem with it, and that's where a lot of discrimination comes from. And if it's a disorder, then I'm assuming there would be some kind of what's the kind of treatment for that disorder? Um, the hormone replacement therapy is one way to treat this illness or this ailment. Um, [00:37:30] but until you get that diagnosis, you can't actually access any medical care. Um, and it is sort of well known within, um, the Harry Benjamin standards of care. That treatment of being trans, um, is, um, like medical intervention is necessary when it comes to hormone replacement therapy and surgery. But you will still be, um, classed as [00:38:00] transsexual. Um, unless you get your birth certificate changed and stuff like that. But you need a doctor to, um well, you need a whole bunch of medical professionals like psychiatrists, psychologists, um, doctors, all that kind of stuff, um, to provide support and to say and to provide evidence that you have, um, transitioned enough, um, [00:38:30] to be able to call be called female. So the medical profession are the gatekeepers to, um, being trans pretty much or to, um, people who want to transition from male to female or from female to male. It's up to them to say whether or not you've done it successfully or not. And that's discrimination in my in my view. You know, have you ever come across, um, medical people that say to you, or or or [00:39:00] that you've heard say to other people? Oh, actually, don't go down this route or, you know there's something in your head that's gone weird. I had a personal experience when I moved here to Christchurch. Um, I tried looking for a GP who, um, was happy to deal with me and that I was comfortable with dealing with them. Um, I visited five different GPS, um, five separate [00:39:30] fees, which is extremely expensive. Um, and one of the GPS actually said to me, Come back in a year and let's see how you feel, then, um, it could possibly just be a phase, you know? And it's like, Dude, eight years later, come on. You know, do you really want me to take my top off? Show you my Bos? And like, I really need a doctor who can deal with me, But he was bringing [00:40:00] his own sort of personal views into it. Um, because there are a lot of doctors who don't bring their own personal views into it. Um, whether it's religious or just personal. And this doctor, um, is Muslim, and I'd say that's where his sort of idea around it came from saying that it was wrong and stuff like that. Which is quite weird, because in Iran, um, they pay for [00:40:30] all your surgeries of all countries. You know, Iran, If you're if you identify as Trans and it's like, well, you have to get your surgery done, there's no other question. Otherwise, you die pretty much. Um, it's Yeah, it's quite strange, but yeah, um, lots of doctors actually bring their own personal things. And, well, some actually flat out refuse to work with trans people. [00:41:00] Um, here in Christchurch especially, um, there are endocrinologists. I'm her other one to, uh, prescribe hormones and all that kind of stuff who will not work with trans people who absolutely refuse to work with trans people. Um, whether it's fear or lack of knowledge or lack of experience. Um, but even telling them [00:41:30] that their best educators are their patients Because Trans people are actually having to educate, um, their doctors, um, around, um, transition and stuff like that because for the most part, most trans people who are wanting to transition from one gender to the other, um, have done their research and know exactly what they want, Um, and what they need in order to medically transition. Um, but some just [00:42:00] some medical professionals just don't want to borrow it. So how do doctors say? Actually, I'm not dealing with you. I mean, do they do they couch it in those kind of blunt terms or do they do like, um, no, I'm not interested in this case. I'm sorry. It's Yeah, um, some are like like that Muslim one. He did try to sort of her, but I'll come back in a year and we'll see how you feel then, stuff like that. So some can be quite blatant. But some can sort of, you know, [00:42:30] put fluff around it and really mollycoddle it and sort of try and be kind about it. And, uh, yeah, it's just ridiculous that that it really shouldn't be like that because GPS are your first port of call when it comes to your transition. Um, and that's where I think, um, a lot of, um, education within the med schools are really beneficial. I mean, I take a 45 minute workshop once a month with fourth year med students who are going to be [00:43:00] future GPS here in New Zealand if they don't end up buggering off overseas to get paid more, um, to educate them around the needs of trans people and, um, by the end of the workshops, um, they're pretty much armed with enough knowledge to be able to treat a trans people a trans person, um, with respect and dignity, because that's pretty much, um, all we want is to be treated with respect and dignity. And that is what any person [00:43:30] in New Zealand can expect from any medical professional is to be treated with respect and dignity. But some just don't do that with trans people. It's ridiculous. So at the end of those workshops, uh, do you have a hopeful feeling when you see the the the graduates or do you think, Oh, gosh, um, at the end of them, um, it really depends, because I mean, some some of my workshops are they ask some really, really good questions. Um, [00:44:00] and like, they really are interested in knowing. But for some of them, they just sit there. None of them take notes. Nothing. So it's really, really hard. And so I mean, I give them an opportunity to give me feedback, Um, by email and stuff like that. Um, and you know, most of the feedback I've received have been has been really, really positive. Um, And, um, there was this one who, [00:44:30] um emailed me and said that she's really looking forward to be able to work with Trans people, Um, which just made it all totally worth it. If I just make one trans friendly doctor in this country, it's just worth it, because there's not many, But you must have a list. Do you of Of really trans friendly doctors? I'm actually working with Nicky Wagner. Um, to, [00:45:00] um, start a network of trans friendly GPS here in Christchurch through health. Um, and then, um hopefully, Nicky and I will be, um, rolling that out nationwide. So a nationwide network of trans friendly, um, GPS so fingers crossed. That's been like a year in the making. So far, it must be a huge step forward as well. Actually, having the, um, medical university bringing you in every month, it's massive. It's absolutely [00:45:30] massive. Um, Otago University School of Medicine is the only school of medicine in New Zealand where gender identity has been specifically included in the curriculum. Um, unfortunately, it is in the, um, addiction medicine course. Um, so there's that I don't really like the association of, um, trans people and addiction, but it's a start, and it's specifically included in the curriculum. Um, I've [00:46:00] spoken with the Ministry of Health and, um, Ministry of tertiary education. And they've said that that's where I should be starting when it comes to getting it included because they can't actually direct me, um, schools of medicine to get it specifically included. So if one school of medicine does it, then another school of medicine should pick it up as well. Um, so it's a start, and hopefully the next president will work on this, um, momentum that's [00:46:30] been built. I'm wondering if you could talk about maybe the the the cultural considerations for trans people in New Zealand. Mhm like for you personally, Um, on a you've you've experienced that kind of stuff and I'm wondering how how does it fit into different cultures? Um, obviously, within most indigenous cultures, there is the male role, and there is the female [00:47:00] role. It's quite evident with the Maori culture. Um, with, um, trans people, there have been trans people who do play the female role on the and do and stuff like that. Um, but for the most part, definitely not. Um, there are the role of, um, trans people in the past, um, have been, um, the protectors of like, Children, [00:47:30] um, the cooks and stuff like that currently, like on a trans person, will be in the kitchen mostly, Um, and it's sort of playing the female role. Um, in sort of a really traditional sense, that sounds really bad. Um, but that's pretty much where Trans people are put on The when it comes to that is, um, in the kitchen. Um, but I think the kitchen's, [00:48:00] like, the best place to be ever, because that's where all the good gossip goes on and stuff like that. I love being in the kitchen on them and I I get the hoe that's coming up. I would much prefer being in the kitchen, but I'm kind of not allowed because I'm organising it. So, um, but yeah, um, the role really hasn't been defined. Traditionally, um, on the but within the, um, unit, um, we, um, have [00:48:30] traditionally been the ones who have looked after the Children, um, who have kept the home fires burning. Um, making sure sort of things in the village are sort of going well and smoothly. And we were at one point seen as, um very special special people. Um, and we were held in high regard within the Maori culture um, it wasn't until um uh, colonisation [00:49:00] started that, um, the western idea of it being wrong was born into, um, the Maori culture. Um, but that's only because of, um, the, um, experiences that the colonisers had in the Pacific Islands. Um, when they were going through the Pacific islands and making their way through New Zealand, they, um, were stopping around. And, um, you'll notice that in the Pacific Islands, there were, [00:49:30] um, being, for example, is still quite a you're held in quite high regard in some way being, and now is sort of like the word for Demi God. And that's the identity for for trans people in Tahiti is, um and, uh, the Europeans who were going through the Pacific Islands sort of encountered and Mau people [00:50:00] and, um, to their sort of disdain a little bit. And then they got to New Zealand. Um, and then they were presented with, um with trans people Maori, trans people, um, to sort of, you know, um please them and all that kind of stuff. And then because of their experiences in the islands, they were like, Hang on. Wait, wait. We know what you are. This isn't right. We're gonna stamp this out. [00:50:30] So, um yeah, it was, at one point, highly regarded. Um, but once the Western ideas and Western civilization started in New Zealand, it was pretty much, um, and the missionaries, you know, saying it was wrong. And then, um, yeah, that's where um, trans people, uh, Maori trans people were sort of, um, taken off [00:51:00] their their were well, the high ranking was taken away from them within within the units because of western ideas and stuff like that. But you'll notice that over in the Pacific Islands that are still affirmed and held in quite high regard because they were such small islands, they thought, Why? Colonise, you know, But we'll go to New Zealand and sort of like, Yeah, we know what you are. We we've already encountered this. We don't like this, so we'll get rid of it, try to anyway. [00:51:30] But, um, yeah, it was quite funny when I heard that because one of my friends is doing a bit of research on on, um, on a traditional sort of roles for trans people in indigenous cultures, which is fantastic. And enough to told me all this so I was quite amused. Oh, yeah. True. Uh, yeah, because I'm really interested in in terms of how you know, this kind of information and the way that history either [00:52:00] promotes, um stories or suppressor stories for you. How have you found finding kind of trans history in New Zealand? Have you been able to kind of learn? Yeah, I've pretty much just winged it. Really. Um, and I've learned along the way, um, my name's been helpful. Um, a lot of friends have been helpful. Um, like my friend is doing, [00:52:30] Um, uh, her her honours in Maori history, Um, has been focusing, um, quite a lot on trans people. And I've got quite a lot of information from her. Um, and just, um, even online resources are there, amazingly, you know, whereas 10 years ago, they just weren't There was nothing around there. Um, but yeah, most of my knowledge comes from other people. [00:53:00] Um, I've learned from other people, and, um, just sat there and listened to them. Um, when? Because if you listen to your to the older people, um, they've got a lot of stories to tell and they've got a lot of knowledge on the history of trans identities in New Zealand. Um, but not many young people want to sit down and listen. You know, they're like, you know, and sit down five minutes. Talking to an old person is more than enough for them. [00:53:30] And I was like, But if you sit there for a few hours, you know there's quite a lot that can come out, you know? And I absolutely love listening to, um the older people, um, talk about their history and their knowledge. Um, so I think it's quite beneficial, because if they don't, um, somebody doesn't listen. Then it'll just be lost because for the most part, most of their knowledge is just up here and they won't write it down, you [00:54:00] know? So, um, that's where I've learned a lot of it was from the older trans community. Is there a lot of intergenerational connection between and the trans community? In what sense? Well, just, for instance, sitting down talking socialising is there are there, like events that bring the breadth of the trans community together? Not as much as they should be. Um, [00:54:30] there's specifically youth groups where only youth are are allowed to go Um, And then there's, um, Organisations where all are welcome like and gender, um, and gender bridge. Um and, um, it's kind of lacking, in a way, the sort of spectrum of age, um, when it comes to support, [00:55:00] because trans youth have no interest. Really? Generally, I'm speaking generally not for the most part, but just generally, trans youth have really no interest in sort of socialising with older people. It's like, Oh, shame, You know, it's quite sad. Really. Um uh, but in saying that, um, quite a lot of, um, youth groups are, um, quite weary about having their youth, [00:55:30] um, interacting with older people. Um, and because apparently there's a lot of safety issues and stuff like that, and which is fair enough I can understand that, um, and that's just keeping to the code of ethics when it comes to youth work. Um, but, um, it is lacking quite a lot when it comes to interacting. Um, the younger, um the younger population with the older, older trans people. [00:56:00] Um, and there should be more. There should be more. Um, so with the gender, what's the age range for? The membership for all? It's for all, but generally the membership is older. Um, but, I mean, we do cater to all ages. Um, whether you're 10 or 100 years old. Yeah. Are you getting 10 year olds coming to you? Uh, the youngest I have interacted with was 12, [00:56:30] um, and he's he's funny. Should never, ever, ever let a 12 year old name themselves. It's a very interesting name, but because this is going on public record, I'm not going to name them. I'm pretty sure he knows who he is. Um, yeah, um, it's, I mean and trans identities are being affirmed a lot more now than [00:57:00] they were 10 years ago. So it's a lot. I'll say it's easier for them. It's still hard. Um, but if they've got the right support around them, it's, uh it can be a lot easier now because there's a lot more information out there for them and for their parents as well. So yeah. So what is it like for you when you're interacting with, say, a 12 year old and and they are coming to this a lot sooner [00:57:30] than you did. What? What goes through your head? I wish that my parents sort of knew about it a lot earlier, because I remember, um, actually saying to my mother when I was four years old that I wanted to be a girl. Um, she has conveniently forgotten that, um, but it's in my Plunket book, so I don't remember you saying that, [00:58:00] but it's right here in my Plunket book. Read it. You wrote it. Um, and I just really wish that, um, in the past that there was more information out there. And I think, um, the youth now are really, really lucky to be able to have the kind of access to the resources that are there to inform, um, to make it easier, um, for for their parents and for their families. [00:58:30] I mean, obviously, there are still a lot of difficulties with coming to terms with losing, um, a child to another identity, and I can totally understand that. But, um, because of the there's more resources available and more information available, the transition for parents can be a lot easier than what it was about 10 years ago. I guess one of the big things that may help would be things like the national which [00:59:00] is coming up. Can you tell me about that? Yeah. Um well, it's going to be awesome. Uh, it's the first time it's ever been held on a marae. Um, and the whole thing about holding it on a is, um a is a place where people can come and discuss and be a and that's the thing, because the trans community is a in itself, and we're inviting family members, [00:59:30] um, of trans people to come along as well. Um, and I really love it being on a because, I mean the word, um, it was original originally, um, and the is the third eye, and all the information goes in through the third eye, goes into your head, it gets discussed. And, um, you know, decisions are made in your head about things, and that's what I love about having it on the is that you go [01:00:00] into a, um you can discuss things, talk about things, and decisions can be made And, um, you know, and you can just make your own decisions about who you are and all that kind of stuff. Um, but my parents are coming down to talk about their experiences of having me as their child. Um, I'm shit scared about having them there because they're holding a panel, Um, on the Sunday, um, but the first [01:00:30] day of the, um of the which is Saturday, Like we're having the opening night on Friday. Um, and then on the Saturday, um, is more informative. We're having, um, got somebody from internal Affairs coming to talk about getting, um, a gender change on your passport. Changing your name and just real practical stuff. Um, we've got a, um, human rights, um, senior policy development person coming down to talk about, [01:01:00] um, the, uh, process to go through the family courts to get your gender changed on your birth certificate. Um, got a, um, who else is coming? A Jackson. She is the manager of the high cost treatment pool. Um, which is, um, the funding through the Ministry of Health that funds gender reassignment surgery. Um, which they do three every two years for, um, trans [01:01:30] women like myself and one every two years for trans guys. Female. Um, and she's coming to talk about the process of how to get the funding for that and how to get on the waiting list and all that kind of stuff. Um, unfortunately, it's like a seven year waiting list at the moment. Um, and there is, um, somebody coming from the Otago University School of Medicine, talking about, um, endocrinology. He's a senior lecturer in endocrinology, and he's got a lot of experience [01:02:00] with with trans patients. Um, he works out of Wellington. Um, and he's coming down to talk about, um, hormones and dosages. How he comes to his decisions on how much to give a trans person. Um, what, to diagnose the art, what to prescribe them with, um, just general information about hormones, side effects, all that kind of stuff. Just real practical stuff on the first day. Um, on the second day, um, we've got sort of more [01:02:30] interactive stuff, like, um, a voice therapy coach. Um, she's, um, internationally, um, known for her voice therapy. She's doing her PhD, um, here in Christchurch. Um, she's like she's European. She's got, like, a mixture of all these different accents. Like, um, she's got a mixture of, like, Hungarian Swiss German accent. It's she's a linguist. She's amazing. Via [01:03:00] pap is her name. Um, and she's coming along and doing voice therapy sessions for both, um, male, Trans and female Trans. Um, and we've got a makeup extraordinaire, makeup and stylist extraordinaire. She's the chairperson of Virgin Christchurch, actually, Um, and she's doing a makeup demonstrations, and she's gonna get a, um, girl from the audience to do her make up and all that kind of stuff and make them feel fabulous. [01:03:30] Um, there's going to be a little shop where people can go shopping because that's one big thing that, um, trans people find quite hard to do is to go into a shop and shop for clothes or shoes or makeup or anything, just anything to do with retail. Because when it comes to, um, like going to like the, you know, mainstream sort of department stores and stuff like that, Um [01:04:00] and like like the stores like Glass or Helen and stuff like that, there's usually really young people working there. So, um, it's really hard to sort of, um, they may have no experience with trans people and be quite up about it, you know, and can discriminate. Or, you know, there have been some people who have been denied access to the female changing rooms and, um, farmers [01:04:30] for example, um, even though they were trying on female clothes, they weren't allowed into the female changing rooms because, um, because our trends, you know, um and that was like a big thing and like they contacted, like head, office or farmers and sorted it out. And farmers, like, initiated a policy because of that. But, um, that's why we're having a shop there as well. So people can feel comfortable to just browse, browse the clothes, browse makeup, accessories [01:05:00] and stuff like that because that's a huge thing for some Trans people not being able to go out and do shopping, um, for themselves and find find themselves some really nice clothes. Um, a lot of them, um, unfortunately, find some really bad clothes because, I mean, there are some who, like secondhand shops, are really quite nice because, um, they are run by old ladies and stuff and who volunteer their time. Um, and old ladies can be really, really lovely. [01:05:30] Um, but, um, the clothes that some, um, aren't exactly nice. Um, it's almost like some mutton dressed as lamb. Um and that's where there are some advantages to going to those mainstream shops because they are young, they can dress people appropriately, but it's, um [01:06:00] quite scary because they're not sure how they're going to react. Um, and that's why we're having the shop there. Um, and my parents are holding their panel and talking about their experiences and opening up the floor to questions about how they dealt with it and stuff like that. Have you ever heard of that? They've never expressed. No, No. So it's going to be the first time I ever hear it. It's going to be interesting. Um, I'll just sit [01:06:30] in the back corner and it's gonna be, Yeah, I'm really, really scared, actually, but, um, it's all right. Um, there are some people who really need to hear it, like there are going to be some other parents of trans people. So, um, mom and Dad are really open about talking about that kind of stuff. Um, and have only recently in, like, the past year or two have started to really open up and really want to learn about it and stuff like that. And, um, bringing [01:07:00] them along is going to be really beneficial for other parents or trans people because there are some who have only just come out to their parents, and the parents are finding there's a huge lack of support for them. Um, so having my mom and dad come along, um, to be able to interact with others and because I've been transitioning, um, for what's this year? 2012, Almost 10 years now. So it's taken mum and Dad about [01:07:30] 89 years to sort of start to come around. Um, they don't call me by my name, though. They just call me my darling. Um, but, yeah, it's cool that they don't use sort of my, um, birth name in front of me. I know they do it, like in, like with their friends and other members of the family, but in front of me, they don't call me by my birth name, which is fantastic. It's [01:08:00] a huge thing for them to do that, Um, but yeah, having them along would be really beneficial. It it's really, really scary, though I'm just kind of looking forward to it. Kind of not. Um, but I'm also holding a panel, um, as well, um, with, uh, a young Trans guy called Connor from Wellington. Um, and we're going to be talking about our experiences with our parents. So it's a bit of a two way sort of [01:08:30] thing, how we wish we were treated and how we would like other parents to sort of open up, um, sort of thing. But Connor is going to be starting off with, like, a letter to his parents, and he'll be reading that letter. I don't think his parents will be coming, though. But, um, for any other parents that are going to be there, it'll be really beneficial for them to hear it. So they know, sort of, in a way, how to treat their child, [01:09:00] you know, in a really respectful and dignified way. Um, and I'll be joining him on the panel and taking questions and stuff like that, Um, which I think would be very beneficial for the parents and for, um, uh, the other attendees as well. We're having somebody talking about gender queer, um, which is an identity that's, um, not particularly recognised at all. [01:09:30] Um, which is quite sad. Um, especially within the trans community. Gender queer is actually pushed to the side. I mean, I, I myself am quite ignorant. To what gender queer is and stuff like that, even How would you define it? Um hm. To my knowledge. Well, according to what I know, um, Gender queer would be somebody who is happy to identify [01:10:00] this way in certain social situations, but happy to identify another way and other social situations. Um, pretty much androgynous. Somebody who's, um, neither one nor the other, Um, or even outside any of those identities. Um, somebody who's quite gender fluid, who's quite happy with whatever, um comes their way when it comes to yeah, social situations [01:10:30] and stuff like that. But there again, you know, I'm completely ignorant to it all. And that's specifically gender, not sexuality. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And that's the same as being Trans. Really. Um, because I mean, there are trans people, trans women who identify as lesbian. There are trans men who identify as gay. Um, so it's being trans is all about gender has nothing to do [01:11:00] with sexuality but trying to get other people to understand that it is kind of hard, especially parents. I've tried to explain it to them, but hopefully this how it will be really, really beneficial for them to actually realise that um It's two completely different things, but they do run parallel. You know, gender and sexuality do don't run parallel with each other, but they are two completely different things. So yeah, fingers crossed. Can you recall the first time [01:11:30] you were ever in a big gathering like of trans people And what that was like, You know, in terms of how how did it make you feel? Yeah, Um, it was last year. I had never been to a trans before in my life. Um, it was March the 16th, 2011. Um, it was the day before [01:12:00] the human rights, um, at the art games last year, Um, and there were over 100 trans people from all around the world who came to the It was run by Jack Burn. Um, fantastic. Fantastic guy. Um and it was It was It was I was going through a huge range of emotions because of the earthquake. I just lost [01:12:30] my house. Um, the day before, I'd, um, just found out that, um uh I lost a friend in the C TV building, so I was just all over the place that day. Um couldn't really focus and all that kind of stuff, but, um, hearing a lot of stories from different countries and stuff like that about how their countries treat them. Um, and how what they go through? It was [01:13:00] I felt really lucky to be a New Zealand citizen. You know, um, it was funny because there were, um it was it was a huge range of people. Um, like they were young, they were old. Um, and when I say old, I'm talking elderly trans people. Um, there were people from Nepal, Hong Kong, Singapore, um, Malaysia [01:13:30] people from all around the world. And it was just the most diverse group of people that I've ever met in my life. Um, it was my very first ever trans specific gathering. I'd been to, um, and the biggest gathering of trans people in New Zealand to date. I think, um, and yeah, it was just it was just amazing. I had so much fun, even though I was going through all those emotions [01:14:00] of losing my friends in the C TV building, losing my house. Um, not knowing what my future held because of the earthquakes and losing absolutely everything. Um, but to be there and amongst people who are like me just made me feel like calm calm to me a little bit after going through all the shit that went down on 22nd of Feb. Um, it was Yeah. It [01:14:30] sort of gave me a bit of strength to sort of carry on a bit because listening to a lot of stories from, um, people from around the world and what they're going through sort of made me think. Well, don't give out. You know, um, it was it was awesome. It was awesome. But I did actually end up relapsing, Um, because I'm a recovering addict. Um, and I did actually end up relapsing that night. Um, and the next day, I actually had to [01:15:00] speak at the human rights conference. Um, I did fulfil my speaking duties. Um, and I ended up like in express magazine. I was thinking it was going to be a tiny wee photo like that. It was half a bloody page. I was like, Oh, my God. And I was high as a kind because I'm a recovering methodic. Um and, um, yeah, it was It was a pretty hardcore [01:15:30] hardcore day and night and day and night and day. Um, but after that, um, I was actually invited along to take part in Utopia and Forge, Um, which really sort of, um, gave me more purpose to actually carry on, um, and continue with my work and move back to Christchurch. Um, because I I sort of made the decision [01:16:00] after I'd found out that my that my mate had died in C TV building. Um, I just thought, Fuck this. I'm never going back to Christchurch. But then I got invited to take part in utopian Forge. Um, and to help these kids, Um, which was really something I needed to do something selfless. And this gave me that opportunity. Um, so really Utopia and Forge saved me. [01:16:30] And it wasn't a gender. It was utopian and force that really saved me. Um, and yeah, I'm just really, really grateful to the person who invited me along to take part. Um, and we'd only just met the day before at, um, the high, Um, and for him to sort of say that even though I was going through all that bullshit, um, underneath all that, um was just really sort of [01:17:00] Wow, you know. You know, I owe that boy my life. Really? Um, and we'll see it. Sorry. I always get choked up when I talk about that. Um, yeah, he was Yeah, he really actually saved my life at that point. And I, um, a hell of a lot, Yes.

IRN: 620
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ATL REF: OHDL-003969
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089263
TITLE: Ray - HIV support in Christchurch
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2000s; Aaron McDonald; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Body Positive; Body Positive Canterbury; Bruce Burnett; Bruce Kilmister; CRUZ bar; Canterbury; Canterbury earthquake 2011; Christchurch; HIV / AIDS; Ian Smith; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Poz Plus; San Francisco; The Box (Auckland); The Closet; beats; community; drug therapy; family; funding; gay; health; health system; isolation; medications; organisation; peer support; retreats; sex-on-site venues; social; support; venues
DATE: 10 May 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Christchurch, Christchurch, Canterbury
CONTEXT: Ray talks about the history of HIV+ support groups in Canterbury - including Body Positive Canterbury and POS Plus. Ray also talks about the affect of the Canterbury earthquakes on himself and the support group.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I am originally from Christchurch. I was born here in 1954 and moved to San Francisco in the eighties and then back to Auckland, where I lived for 15 years and then in Thames in the Coromandel, Uh, for another few years and then back to Christchurch in the early two thousands. And I came back to look after my mother and sister who were ill [00:00:30] at that point in time and stayed. So I've returned to my roots. So that's, uh that's a little bit about who I am. Um, the peer support group, Um, for HIV positive people when I returned, uh, there was nothing, uh, no support group for positive people in Christchurch. What year was that? It it would have been probably. Well, it was [00:01:00] 2001, 2000. Yeah, probably 2001. There had been groups, but they had Yes, there were controversies around them all. Uh, and, um, I'm not I wasn't involved in them, so I've only had hears a and, um uh, So I best not talk about those, but, uh, there were, as I said, a number of, uh, initiatives, uh, [00:01:30] both by positive people. and, uh, people who sought to support them. Um uh, some were OK, Some weren't, uh, that were most weren't, um the foundation, Uh, the New Zealand Days Foundation. Uh, I made contact with the clinic here. And the person the the counsellor at the time? Um, no, [00:02:00] the facilitator or the manager of the clinic, Ian Smith at the time. Uh uh invited me to, um, set up a peer support group for positive people here in Christchurch. Um, given that I had a history of doing that in other places. So, um, and I suggest to that. So, um, [00:02:30] at the beginning, uh, Bruce Kilmister from body Positive of Auckland, uh, came down to Christchurch, and I don't remember exactly the the beginnings of that, but he came down and, uh, there was a lunt that was held at a hotel that body of Auckland paid for. And it was to [00:03:00] get positive people together and talk about whether they wanted to have, you know, um, to get together and what they wanted. Basically, uh, what came out of that meeting was that there was a lot of anger, a lot of frustration, Um, a lot of seriously psychotic people who who who had been, uh, involved in other, um [00:03:30] initiatives, Um, psychotic and and, Well, I don't know, really. They were just crazy. And, um, but overall, there was a lot of anger toward, um, the foundation, uh, the services here in Christchurch and the history involved. Uh, so the meeting really was a a pain in the heart section. [00:04:00] And so, um, there was a a youngish man there in his thirties from, uh, Ashburton. And, um, he had never been involved in any of the support groups, and, uh, he had been involved in setting up incorporated societies and and trusts and other places for other reasons. And so he offered his services, uh, to set it up. His name was Aaron McDonald. [00:04:30] He has since died. Um, about three years ago, and he took on the set up of the Incorporated Society of Body Positive Canterbury. So and that, uh, the document that he, um, put together was dated December 2002, so [00:05:00] that would have been the start of body positive. Canterbury, can you describe for me what the benefits are of a peer support group? As opposed to something like the AIDS Foundation. Well, the AIDS Foundation doesn't actually offer support to positive view. Uh, it offers counselling and and, uh, and testing, and that's about it. And advocacy. [00:05:30] Um, but there's something about just being with other positive people where you don't have to explain yourself. You don't have to interact with a counsellor. You don't have to interact with someone who could be pushing their own agenda. Um, like a carer or whatever, Um, or someone that no do go for, for want of a better word. Um, I know that's a judgement, but that's [00:06:00] often what it feels like. And, um, even even those people who do their best to separate their own agenda from, um, but from the service that they're providing, Really? You know, it doesn't It doesn't actually feel the same as just having other positive people. So, uh, and one can learn quite a lot from other positive people [00:06:30] because they're they're going through a similar thing and along a similar path. So, for instance, um uh, side effects of medication or, uh, how to deal with them, um, or what they might be if they're looking at going on to a different medication or new newly going on to medication, um, services in the community that may be there [00:07:00] that the foundation staff know of, but may not even think about, You know when you're meeting with them. So, um, but it it's mainly just actually being around other people where you don't have to explain who you are. You don't have to say, uh, why you're not working or why you're not doing this or why you're tired or why you're not able to eat certain things or why you're not able to or [00:07:30] why you look like you do. There's no you know, there's It's a very unpressured situation, and for a lot of people, that's the only time that they actually ever have. That is on that, you know, when they meet with their peers. So that's the benefit, and it's a huge one. I can yes, I can do that. So, prior to body positive, Canterbury being formed were there kind of informal groups that were were meeting [00:08:00] or groupings. There were, um, groupings. Uh, there was a man, uh, Colin Docherty and and who's still in Christchurch? Not positive. Who, uh, is a mess. And he used to have informal, uh, Sunday, once a month, I think, or once every couple of months, a Sunday barbecue or something at his house and for positive people. And that was one of the the more beneficial [00:08:30] ones that had already stopped before I came down. But people that I spoke to, um were, um, only had good things to say about that. Uh, there were others that were started and wow, well, I don't know. It's just Yeah, it's best not to go there, but, um, needless to say, [00:09:00] there were occasional attempts, but, um, I was I wasn't aware of any groups as such. How was it for you coming back to Christchurch and having been in peer support groups and other places and then not having that in Christchurch? How did it? How did it make you feel? Oh, for me. Uh, it was fine. I mean, I didn't need it. And, um uh, at that point, I didn't [00:09:30] need it. And, um yeah, so it wasn't a need that I I had for myself, So yes. So it was purely, um I was asked to do it, and I did it for the others. Really? So Yeah. In fact, it's actually hard work. So, um yeah. So, um, all the way it's set up now is hard work. Was anything put in place when the Incorporated Society was formed, that would [00:10:00] stop it kind of drifting back into some of the kind of previous times where groups didn't quite work. No, nothing was set up and as such, but it was I think we had more structure, probably than the others. Uh, and but it came down to us having to police ourselves. And, um, and as you'll see [00:10:30] when we get on to pos Plus and the demise of pos Plus, um, that really didn't work. So yeah. So it did break down? Yes. What was your role with body positive, Canterbury? Uh, well, I was the chair of body positive and was the chair right through. And, um, basically, because no one else wanted to do those tasks. And so Aaron was the treasurer, [00:11:00] and we had different people in the role of secretary, um, and how many members? It started off with about, uh, 15, 10 to 15 and went up to about 2025. And some of those have died and Some have moved away, but the current group is still 25. What kind of activities did [00:11:30] you undertake? It was mainly, uh, it was mainly based around a a monthly gathering on It's always been the third Sunday of the month, and it would be a, uh, a lunch, and there'd be a discussion. And, um, occasionally there'd be someone brought in, like one of the doctors or someone from the foundation. Or [00:12:00] a visitor like Bruce would come down from Auckland, um, or someone from Australia who may be passing through and they would talk about different things. Uh, so that was the main thing. Uh, then we had, uh, a weekend for people in in South London and no, and the south of the South Island. And that had about I think [00:12:30] it was 15 to 20 people, uh, all men. And that was, um I can't remember the place that where we had it, but, uh, that was for most of the men there. It was the first time they'd ever met anyone who was positive, and some of them had been positive for 15 years. So it showed us how isolated people are in the South Island Well, and in the middle of the North Island as well. And, [00:13:00] um and there are no services, so that was a one off event. Um, we were never able to get funding to do any others. Um, even though we tried and, um, and it was quite difficult to actually get the thing together, Um, because of privacy issues and all this and how to get the make the contact. Fortunately, the infectious diseases specialist in Dunedin Hospital, um, passed [00:13:30] on a notice to all of his, um, male clients. And that was how we were able to make contact with them. Uh, but and there were one or two on our books, but, you know, that must have been quite an amazing experience meeting people that have not to meet other HIV positive people for for years. Yeah, well, that's that's something that I've had experience of ever since I've been in the field in 84. [00:14:00] But, um I mean, it's a it's a reality in New Zealand, uh, people outside of the main centres don't have, uh, contact that will very rarely have contact and don't know what's provided because they don't have any way of finding that information. And if they're not on computers, or, you know, um, don't know about Bo positive or you know, then they won't. They just won't [00:14:30] know what's available for them. And, uh, and the specialists don't, um I mean, they're there to look after their health. Not after, um, other things. Yeah. So what kind of conversations we had on that weekend? A lot of it was to do with, uh, actually, uh, writing misinformation. We found, uh, to begin with. So people had very [00:15:00] strange ideas about the the the disease that they had. Um, I can't give you examples, but there was some very weird, uh, I. I remember there was some very weird conversations that had So we actually basically had to do in AIDS 101, with these people. And so that everyone was talking from the same song sheet to begin with. And then, uh, we got people to tell their story. Really? And so that's how we found out [00:15:30] just what had happened to these people, you know? And, um, and the remarkable ability that they had to survive. Yeah, that survived very well. Yeah. And the telling of the stories were really great because people, everyone has a chance to tell this story. And, um and some went on for a couple of hours, you know? And, um and they were quite difficult for a lot of people to hear, and [00:16:00] so that you know, that, um that caused some problems for some people because they especially the longer term people, because they didn't want to have to bring up all that stuff. You know, that that all that stuff was so far in the past and that that developed, uh, initiatives to not suppressed necessarily. But to live [00:16:30] with this stuff and it had served them well. And here it was all being sort of brought up. So it was necessary to sort of take some people aside and just sit with them and and really just say, Well, you know, if that's if it's too difficult, just go for a walk. And you know, you don't need to actually sit through these things and, um, but for others, it wasn't really important, so but they all did. They [00:17:00] all, you know, it was just actually a matter of voice in it, and then they would come back. And, um because they I think they realised that, uh, hearing the listening was actually just as important as the same. And, um And so they they realised that it was important for these people to be heard. Their stories were important, you know. And, um yeah. [00:17:30] So, yes. So that's, um, that it was a great weekend, and, uh, we tried several avenues of getting extra funding for extra weekends. Um, the one story out of it that was really amazing was this, um the people doing the catering, uh, was a family, a local family, Uh, and [00:18:00] they killed the lamb for the roast dinner and all this sort of thing. They were farmers and the mother and daughter and and husband and son, I think No, the mother, daughter and husband were all involved in this, and, um and we couldn't work out why they were so so involved and wanted to communicate with people and wanted to, you know, they weren't [00:18:30] pushy or anything, but and they we were a bit concerned that they may have had some sort of religious agenda or whatever, but that never eventuated and right at the end of the weekend. Uh, they were thanked, um, at the end of the weekend and by the full group. And they then the husband then said that he wanted to tell us a story and that the story was that their son had just come out as a gay man, [00:19:00] like, literally, I think, that year and, um And they wanted they wanted to do this so that they could actually learn more, meet more gay men and learn what it was to be. You know, something about being gay and, uh, and to be informed about HIV, uh, so that they could support their son not [00:19:30] to become infected. And I thought, what? Uh, it was really quite amazing. I mean, you know, they were crying, and when they were saying this and it was like, Yeah, pretty full on stuff. So yeah, so it was It was quite an amazing weekend, right in the middle of nowhere. I mean, it was it was somewhere in Milton or something like that. Way the hell out in the middle of nowhere and out of Dunedin. [00:20:00] OK, you say that it it was hard to get funding. Why? Why do you think that was, well, the foundation gave us some funding towards it, but, I mean, it actually cost quite a lot of money and, uh, to support people to get their number one. You know, it's not easy. And we wanted to do another one in the north of the South Island, and that would have even been bigger. But, um, to get the people, there was gonna be a difficult one. And, [00:20:30] um, I think it I think the budget was something like $15,000 in total. I mean, we had to. I mean, it was a weekend we had. We brought in a facilitator from Auckland. So there were We all had to get down there, and he had to get down there, and we had to hire the venue, pay for the food, and it needs to be comfortable. And it needs to be good, you know, it's no good just having a camp. I mean, it has [00:21:00] to be, uh, um, some of the people are not well and, you know, and they need and they're on benefits and things like that. And why should they, you know, have fish and chips? You know, it doesn't make sense. So we made sure that the food was good and the, um and the place was warm and, you know, and clean and all that sort of thing. And and, I mean, bedding had to be [00:21:30] supplied all that sort of stuff. I mean, it was quite it was quite an event, and it's amazing how quickly the oh, and then there's postage and contacts and phone calls. And it's quite a nightmare, really. And, um, getting people from a to B is the was the most difficult. I guess I was wondering is peer to peer support seen as a valid thing in terms of funders, when they when they're looking to fund something. Did you find that generally, And [00:22:00] funders? Uh, yes, it was good. Uh, we always had, uh, funding support from, uh, various trusts around the place. I mean, the work involved in getting those was phenomenal. And that was what created the the problems at the end of um but, uh, the foundation supported us. Uh uh, with various amounts, but not a lot, because they had their own things. [00:22:30] And, um and we were our own organisation at that point, and we were getting funding, so we never wanted to really tap into this stuff. I mean, they supported us, but, um, and supported us generously. Um, but, you know, it was, uh we preferred to try and get our own stuff. One of the problems was that body positive of Auckland. Um saw themselves as [00:23:00] a national organisation and applied to all the South Island, uh, trusts. So when we would apply Because our name was similar, they would say that we'd already been funded. And, um when we were two different organisations and that led to problems between our organisation and body boss of Auckland and also, um, lead [00:23:30] us to change the name to so but that's still, um it was still difficult and body positive. Auckland never took us off their website as a branch note, uh, for about another two years after we changed the name, which was about when we stopped. So anyway, so So when did the name change to I think you said 2006. [00:24:00] Which would be about right? Yeah, it was about two years before the end. I think we finished in 2008. You mentioned earlier on that the chairperson's job was a really hard one, that nobody really wanted to kind of take that on. But no, no one wanted to take it on. It wasn't hard. It's just that no one wanted to take it on. Um, I was the coordinator of the group. So is just the title that that I had but facilitating [00:24:30] or coordinating the group, No one else. They wanted to come along. They didn't want to actually do any of the work. So, um, in organising it or facilitating it, So, um, we only ever had three people really who were involved in organisational sort of aspects of it. So how much time a week. So would you be spending on organising events? Uh, I'd say it'd be a couple of days a month. Uh, and that included phone [00:25:00] calls with Aaron, which would go on for our house. And, um uh, he had to know a and and, uh, the other person involved. And then it was, uh, coordinating the food. And the at times we were meeting, uh, away from at the beginning, we met away from everyone's house. And so at the beginning, it was actually at the foundation. So that meant going and picking up a key and and [00:25:30] then going back again on the day, unlocking it, setting it up, cleaning up, then taking the key back on the Monday, all this sort of nonsense. And then we moved to another place and that involved exactly the same stuff. And, um and then finally, I just said, I've had enough And, uh so now the group meets at my house, and it has done since then. So, um, and it's so much easier. [00:26:00] But it's the like getting the food together. Like all you have to come up with a menu. You have to buy the food you have to or or bring it in. You have to go and pick it up. You have to go shopping. Uh, you've got to clean, uh, you know, a group of gay men coming to your house or and other people, but the gay men in particular I mean, you know what it's like, So you've got to clean. You've got, you know, and, um [00:26:30] and also it it does need to be cleaned because of people's immunity and low immunity and stuff, and and it's only once a month, but it's still a whole weekend goes, and then you've got to You've got to set it all up. You've got to cook them with food. If it's been cooked, uh and then you've got to host it and then you've got to clean up. And so it's a whole weekend. So it's a whole weekend in plus [00:27:00] so but it's it works. It's a lot easier doing it that way than having to go to somewhere and because it's much more pressured. So Pos Plus didn't last that much longer, did it? It was only was it a couple of years before it? Yeah, the, um one of the problems was, Well, the problem was that Aaron got ill and seriously ill, and she ended up in him dying. And at the [00:27:30] same time, we talked with the membership and they, um they were supportive of continuing on, but not uh, not setting up another organisation. And, uh so the foundation said that they would support us for the funds for the for the lunch, and, um and so we [00:28:00] we never set up another organisation and we just use an umbrella organisation to receive the funds and we just have the lunch and that's it. And we're not affiliated with any groups. We don't. We're not an official organisation, uh, or a legal entity. Um, we don't have any contact with body positive Auckland or positive women in Auckland or the Wellington Group. Um, [00:28:30] the foundation? Well, we have monthly contact with them because they give us the money. But that's about it. Um, and it works it. It's much easier and it takes all the pressure out of it. And yeah, so and it just means that we provide peer support, full stop, nothing else. So we don't get into the politics and which is pretty nasty between organisations [00:29:00] or can be and, um and so it sort of freezes up just to look after each other. Really? So that's that's the history there. So the Christchurch Support group came out of pos Plus, and what kind of activities did that did that do it solely? It solely provides a once a month gathering. Yeah, so there's no, [00:29:30] um, there's no advocacy or politics or any of that type of thing involved. Occasionally we may discuss an issue that, um, that someone wants to talk about. But, uh, again, we don't have contact with any of the other groups, so, you know, they don't, uh They don't contact us. We don't contact them. Yeah. How many members? Uh, be about 25 on the books. We don't [00:30:00] get that many. We don't get that many to, uh, any one gathering, but we at Christmas time, we always get close to 20. But, uh, we've never had the full 25. Yeah, but there are 25 that get notified men, but for me And yeah, so there we are in 2008, 2009, and suddenly, at the end of 2010, there was a major earthquake [00:30:30] in Christchurch. What impact did that first earthquake have well on you and also the group, uh, the first earthquake didn't have much of an impact on the group. Um, at all so well, not well. Some individual members, uh, had problems, uh, with their house. Uh, but they were repairable. And, um, [00:31:00] but none of none of them actually had any major thing that I remember after the first one. For me, it was sort of like, um, the first one was a non event, really compared to the others. But, um, the first one. I mean, it was interesting. And it was, you know, it was, um, scary and all the rest of it, But, [00:31:30] um uh, there was no damage to the house I was in at that point in time and and we just carried on. Really? Yeah. So there were No, there were no issues after the first one. Had you ever experienced something like a magnitude 7. 1 earthquake? No, not really, No, not like that. No, I've been in the earthquake here in Christchurch and that, but that was nothing [00:32:00] like that at all. Um, but the the second one was far worse. The first one was nothing, really. I mean, I was in bed. It was at four o'clock in the morning or whatever it was. And, um, it was just like someone was rocking the bed. Really, But, uh, and the aftermath of it was more bizarre because it was dark. So there was no power in the area and [00:32:30] alarms car alarms were going, and people were outside sort of talking on the streets and things like that and and you'd see sort of candles moving in the windows of houses and stuff like that. And, um and then there'd be the occasional aftershock and things, but yeah, after a while, I mean, it's just it was just back to sleep. Really? Yeah. That kind of immediate reaction of just walking into the street and having it kind of pitch [00:33:00] black with no power, that must be quite a surreal. Well, it is when you're in the middle of the city and you're used to it and very quiet, except for the alarms and things like that. You know, it's like you don't have, like, there were lots of takeaway bars and things all around it where I used to live, and the refrigeration units would be going all the time. So there was this constant hum, but they had all gone off. So [00:33:30] it was just It was quite strange Silence, really. And, um and and because it was in the middle of, you know, early morning, um, the traffic wasn't around and and that so it was just fortunate that it was there. Where were you living? I was living in spray at that point in time. So in the Anchor Street. So it's It's very central to the city. So it's basically [00:34:00] actually, it's in Sydney, Um uh, one block away from Brown Street. So did you think at the time that there would have been casualties from that kind of sized earthquake? I wondered, But, uh, yeah, I didn't know. Really? Yeah, because there was no damage around us. So all our chimneys were all well up. And it wasn't until the next day when I went out to shop [00:34:30] or something and I noticed that all the chimneys were down all the way along the road, um, further down and, you know, and all this sort of thing. And, uh, I was thinking, Well, there's a bit more to this and what meets the eye. But yeah, there wasn't there wasn't it didn't have much effect at all. So in between that earthquake and the bigger one, which I call the bigger one, [00:35:00] we moved or I moved and moved into an old villa on the other side of town, and that villa had no chimneys left, so they'd fallen down. The bricks were still on the roof when we arrived, and, um, they hadn't been cleared off, and they just had tar holds over the holes. And, um but that was the only major damage that had been done to it. [00:35:30] Had you moved because of earthquake damage in the food? No. I moved because the other place was too small and a friend of mine had come back from France and wanted to stay and and flat together. And, uh so we moved into a bigger place. And it's such a beautiful area where we moved to so compared to the other one. And when did you move to a Yeah, so going forward, I think six months to February, where you say the big earthquake, [00:36:00] which was actually lesser in magnitude But, um, closer to the what was that that was that was far worse because it had a bigger impact. And it was, um I mean, it was in the afternoon, so it was, uh, it was I mean, I was at home on that day and was sitting at the computer and remember when it started looking down the corridor and the back of the house was was [00:36:30] moving, um, sway and lift, you know, back and forth and uh, in the beginning wasn't too bad. I mean, things were falling and that and then I thought, uh, hang on. And then I stood up, and that was when there were two jolts, very heavy jolts, and they threw me to the floor. So and that was when everything fell over that was gonna fall. Um, so, um, [00:37:00] it was quite a a strange experience. That one was far worse inexperience in the other. And, um, there was no surety at all. I mean, you know, if you'd been outside, you would have ended up on the ground, and, um and the whole of the inside was trashed. Really? So, you know, book shelves. I mean, they it was our fault that we hadn't actually attached [00:37:30] them to the wall, but, uh, you know, they were all on the floor, books everywhere and things smashed. And, you know, all the support group. Um, because we had, uh, like dinner sets and things like that for lunches and that, and that was all that was all gone. Um, cupboards had come open, and things are just falling out. Um, so that was the main damage. [00:38:00] I mean, there was damage to the around the ran the, um where the walls meet the ceiling, They all cracked, and, um, plaster was falling off and things like that, uh, windows broke or cracked, I should say, um, fireplaces moved like cast iron fireplace and started walking out into the room. Um, yeah. Other than that, um, that was that was well, then. I mean, we had no power [00:38:30] and no sewerage and no water. So So this one was far worse. And so, um, to get water, I had enough in the in the tank that would slowly come out of the tap. So there was a little bit in there that I could access, and then that dried up. So a news came through that you could actually get water just around the corner at because there were cordons around the inner city [00:39:00] and at each of the streets, they had water bottles, um, big stacks of water bottles that you could just go and help yourself. So I went around and got some of those and, um, that must have taken a while to actually put in place, though. No, it was very quick. Yeah, it was, um, the next day. Yeah, it was all that was there. In fact, it was early morning that I went around and got all that. So they've been very fast in getting that [00:39:30] service there. Um, there was certainly no sewage, so you couldn't use the toilets? Um, well, there's no water, so you couldn't flush the toilet. So you had to, uh, rig up, um, toilets outside and things like that. Um, because there were no portals and chemical toilets and all that. They didn't arrive until well weeks after. And the water wasn't [00:40:00] put on for a couple of days, I think. But we were fortunate where we were and that they the water and sewerage came on quite quickly. And although you had to boil the water for drinking and sewage, um, what what started happening about a week afterwards was that you'd have these enormous trucks that would appear in the street at the end of the street, and they they'd be doing this sort of, [00:40:30] uh uh. I don't know what they did, but it was Either they were sucking the stuff out or they were pushing it along or something. But what? They were huge things and the noise was phenomenal and they did it every week, almost around us. And then they'd come to the the manhole outside the house, and then you had to go in with a brick and put it on the lid of the toilet. If you didn't as happened with us, you'd end up with shit and paper [00:41:00] and God knows what, all over the room, Because they'd blow something through it and to clear the pipes. And it was like, far out. You know, it's just like everything everywhere is like, What a nightmare. So and there's no warning that they'd be there, you know? It's like, Oh, so, um, so we got used to that. But, um, just taking you back to the the the time when the earthquake actually happened, how long did [00:41:30] it go for? It seems like forever. But, um, it wasn't I think it was less than a minute. I think it was. Yeah, it was less than a minute, but it felt like it was it was quite long, but it was, uh, there was the lead up that was sort of like a rolling thing. And then there's two jolts and, uh um And, of course, the It's not just the main earthquake, it's all the it goes on. [00:42:00] Um, the earthquake might only last for the actual earthquake. Might only last for a matter of seconds, but there seems to be it's it's like when you get off a plane and you sort of after a long trip and you feel like you're still moving. It has that sort of sensation, and I think it is actually the ground still moving, And, uh, but it's very it's quite strange. And, uh, and then, of course, you have all the aftershocks and [00:42:30] they start happening within minutes, and, um, and they can be as intense or not quite as intense, but intense enough. Was there any sound? Oh, yes, yeah, sort of rumbling. And, um and and like with the jolts it it's like a quite a powerful smack, um, sound or crack or whatever. Yeah, it was quite they were. It was quite an interesting, um, earthquake. Really? Yeah. [00:43:00] When that happens, I mean, I just kind of try to think what would be the first thing that I would do. You know what? How How would you prioritise? What? What did you do first. It was interesting because I got up because I thought I'd better go to the door, you know, because I've got an outside door in my room and I was heading towards that when I fell when I was thrown over, Um, and because everything had fallen around us in the house, [00:43:30] it was like, um and all of that happened in the middle of, you know? I mean, I was on the floor and I thought, far out the house is going to fall down, And, uh, because that's what it felt like. It did actually feel like the whole place was like, You know, um, gonna just take on a lean and go, you know, plenty of places did, um, around us, but so the first thing was that I'd heard all these things falling, so I got [00:44:00] up. And it's sort of like walking around in the days, Really, because you've got a adrenaline and it's like you're walking around, sort of like, uh, not knowing exactly really what you're doing. And so all I did was wander around and just survey what was going on or what had gone on. And, um, and and then walk around the property because there was no point in doing anything. So at that point, [00:44:30] uh, walk around the property and just check and see that everything was all right and then check on the people because there's elderly people next door, and, um and they were fine, and there were people on the road at that point, and they were also worried about them. Um, and I realised that they were worried about me because I'm I'm not old. I love it. So, um, it was quite interesting. So, [00:45:00] uh, it was one of my first experiences of being regarded by young people as being old. So it was quite interesting in a way, um, and it took a while to realise that, you know that what had happened, and I went back inside and started Well, I mean, the main thing was to get the books out of the way. And, uh, so it was just a matter of stacking them on the floor, really, where they'd fallen. And, um, just [00:45:30] to create places to walk and, you know, and clean up. And then I was aware of all the glass and crockery and stuff that had broken. And so that meant that I had to start cleaning up. And, um uh, because it was too dangerous and still get bits of glass and stuff in my foot If you walk around just occasionally. What about communications? Like, uh, could you access, like, radio, [00:46:00] phone, TV, telephone, telephone. Uh, landline was out. Oh, you just couldn't get through. I mean, um, it was engaged or, you know, whatever. Um, overloaded. Probably, uh, I could send texts occasionally, but even that was overloaded. Um, and occasionally one would get through, and that was that was great, because you knew that, you know, at least because you didn't know [00:46:30] what had happened around. So, you know, it was like when I drove out of out of our street. I mean, because at that point I went, I decided I'd go to to the airport to actually check up on my partner's mother and because he was over in Ood in his house and he wouldn't have been able to get there. So, um, so I started going [00:47:00] out, and I only got two blocks and the traffic was in chaos. The road was a complete mess, and with liquefaction, and that was coming up. And, um and the road was all sort of uneven. And, um and there were people directing traffic away from that area, and there was the There was chaos. And I thought, No, this is ridiculous. I'll just go back. And, um And so I was [00:47:30] aware that it was far worse around than our street. And, um and then news started coming in that people have been killed and stuff like that. So, um, I think I turned on the TV or something. I think that had come back on or something. So yes. So it was a It was a bit of a shock. Really? And what about making contact with the other members of the support group? Well, that was more difficult. Um, some of those people and the second one lost their [00:48:00] house. And, um, and I had no idea where they went. So you know that there were two people in that situation. Others, um, uh, one had to move out of her house, and, uh, and I had no way of contacting her because I only had her computer email at war. Um, landline. So that was that was gone. A few people, uh, I mean, I was able to get through to [00:48:30] a few people by email and by text, and they were fine. So yeah, and some took advantage of the Air New Zealand thing and went out of the city. So, uh, one person in particular who needed dressing for things on his legs. So he got on a plane and went to Auckland. And, um, side is that, but the majority of people survived. Very well. Um, [00:49:00] they had to. So, uh, yes, many of the people in the group, uh, used to go to doctors in the High Street Medical Centre. And, um, that whole area, of course, was destroyed. And, um, and for about three weeks, we had no idea where doctors were where those doctors were, and it was quite difficult [00:49:30] to get information about where they were going to be or where you know where where that set up was gonna be. Um, eventually, we we were able to find out, um, the hospital, the medications that seemed to be ok. Um, for most people. Um, because most of the pharmacies were intact, so they [00:50:00] didn't have too much of a problem. People accessing the hospital. Well, if they didn't have a car, then it was a lot. Well, in one sense, it was a lot harder. But in other senses, it was a lot easier because the one of the hubs for the buses was right outside the hospital, and there was a free bus that would go between the hubs. So it was actually a lot easier at that point And why they've changed it back to where they what they were doing. I have no idea. But, [00:50:30] um uh, the way that the emergency, um, scene that they had set up was great. It was a perfect sort of scene, really. Not even not only to access the hospital, but just to access the city. You know, just, uh, made complete sense. Driving was a pain, Uh, because you couldn't you had to go around and everyone had to go around. And so it was just this constant gridlock [00:51:00] going around and around the city. And if you had, uh, major aftershocks, then you know people, then you know those, uh, roads just I mean, it was a nightmare. It would take two or three hours to get home. And whereas it would only take 10 minutes ordinarily, But from what I hear, most people survived all of that. Quite well. Um, they access family and friends. Um, [00:51:30] I haven't heard of anyone that that that had a major experience, you know, a negative experience around it. You mentioned the high street doctors, and I'm thinking, if they couldn't give them into those practises, did that mean that the patient records had gone as well? I have no idea. I don't know how they well, mine are still there, so I don't know how they access. You can still access your records. So they've set up elsewhere, [00:52:00] You see, um, and he seems to have all the records. So how soon after that February earthquake did the group meet up again? I don't even know what day the February earthquake was. It was 22nd. So it was. It was so that would have been the a few days after the group met. So we wouldn't have met up again until the march, which was a good thing, really. Because I wouldn't have been able to get food and [00:52:30] things. Yeah, when you met, what was the mood like it was difficult because, um, the one person that we knew that had or one of the people that we knew who had lost his house and everything in it, so the whole thing had collapsed. Um, it was an old, um, an old house, uh, that he had renovated, um, over a number of years, and all those goods were so computer [00:53:00] and everything was gone. So, um, so those, I mean, and and then you started hearing the stories of the others of what had been happening with the others as well. So everyone had a story about something that had happened. And it was important just to, you know, allow that discussion to happen. Really? And so for the next two or three months, and really that was the focus of [00:53:30] the meetings, was just talking about what was happening. And it still comes up occasionally, but not so much now. Seems to have seems to have settled down along with the along with the the earth. As the months move on, does the psychology of living in a city where things have been broken or people have died? Does that have an impact through, Do you? Do you find there's a higher level [00:54:00] of stress or other kind of emotions that are coming through? I'm not sure about whether it's the psychology of of being in a city where people have died. I think it's, uh, I think it's, um, being in a city that's now unstable whereas we thought it was staple. So it's that unknown thing. So, like, I noticed that there are this building creaks a lot. So [00:54:30] and when people walk next door, it seems to sort of shake a little bit. And those sort of things are interesting to me. Um, I find that I react to those, Um uh, when I was in Wellington, I was horrified walking around your city absolutely horrified. Nothing Far out that anyone that would walk around this place needs the, um [00:55:00] and, uh, here, Um, the thing I've noticed for myself is is mainly driving. So, um, you have to know where you're going. The roads are appalling. In places, there are always new road works. And so sometimes you've got detours and all sorts of things that just appear out of, you know, one day gone the next. [00:55:30] But you also have people that I keep joking that the new speed limit in Christchurch is 10 kilometres less than what it should be. And, um so people seem to go 10 whenever there's a road code. They seem to reduce the speed down 10 kilometres whenever there's a orange cone on the road. Wherever, whether there's a sign or [00:56:00] not, and occasionally you'll get elderly people who are driving and of course for them. Their city has changed completely and you know the landmarks have gone and so they have no idea where they're going and um and so they're driving. They're driving is sort of spontaneous. So they come to a corner and they need to turn left because they've just realised that if they don't turn left here, they will never get you know to [00:56:30] where they want to go and and so that sort of it's like, well, or they're going along at 30 kilometres an hour trying to find where they're meant to go and stuff like that when you're rushing or needing to get somewhere or know the road very well. Um then it gets really, you know, gets tiresome to have to put up with that, um and it's the only the elderly I can appreciate. [00:57:00] And usually, once I find out that that's sort of dissipates. But it's the people who aren't old, who are just and, um, or rubber Neckers and that part of it I. I just find myself getting quite irritated. And, um um, and people do some really strange things when they get irritated. And I've seen myself doing it as well. And, um, like passing in really strange places [00:57:30] and and, you know, tooting horns and things like that. And, um so yeah, so I've noticed that. So there's a lot more irritability, and, um, the other thing is, is people that haven't been through the earthquakes, Um, who live here coming back. And I've had the experience now of being in every earthquake that's happened here. And, um, [00:58:00] and after every one of them, I've had people arrive back who haven't been in them. And then there's this incessant talking about this and that and all the rest and and when there's an earthquake, it's an aftershock. It's like, you know, it's it's like this whole thing, you know, and and then there's this. They launch off into this further dialogue of, you know, this, that and all the rest. And about that [00:58:30] aftershock. And it's like, Oh, it's just an aftershock. Come on, you know, and, uh and it gets I appreciate it, but it gets quite tiresome, you know, and, um, especially when it's the same people who keep coming back. And they seem to have come back after every earthquake and have never been in any of them. And, uh and I mean, the houses are right off and things like that, but it's just like, Oh, please, [00:59:00] it it just gets I mean, I find myself getting tired of that, really. And, um, I don't know. There's only so much you can say about it. Yeah, after having said all that, What What about within the, um, peer support group? Has the dynamic changed? Is we now? What? A year and a bit after the second big earthquake. The dynamic has changed is that, um what started happening was that people [00:59:30] started doing the dishes cleaning up after them. There seemed to be a lot more sort of, um, concern for what people were going through, um, willingness to listen to what was going on, um, as well as irritability. And, um so there is that as well. But overall, there seems to be a sort of a yeah, [01:00:00] more of concern, I think for each other. I don't know. I can't put my finger on it. But there seems to be a difference, and I don't know what it is. But there is a difference, I think because most of them lived through all of these earthquakes. So you know, and and it does seem to be something. And people that, um, have lived through them. It seems to be an unspoken bond or something that occurs [01:00:30] there. And you don't actually have to say very much. And, uh, it's just you just get on and live life really and interact with each other. But it's on a different level. It's on a different scenario. I don't quite understand that, but yeah, I think it it must be something like being in the peer support group for people with HIV you because you've got a commonality. So, uh, a common shared [01:01:00] experience. And, um, I don't quite understand. So yes, Um, one of the things that I mean I don't use the venues the gay venues in, um, in Christchurch. But, um, certainly friends of mine do, And certainly people at the in the group do. And, um, So there was this a period of, uh, not [01:01:30] having any sort of, um, venues. Really, Uh, where they could meet. And so it it really brings up sort of questions around sex on site menus and things like that. And so where do you What do you do at that point in time? You know, So it was sort of like going back 30 years, Um, because the bars are gone, and, uh, all the venues had gone so some of the all [01:02:00] the well, some of the beats were there, um, because they had closed as well. So all the public toilets that had been closed for months, And so the only one that actually still operated was the beach, the beaches. So So, fortunately, probably for many people, it was in the summer time. But, um, I think online dating probably accounted for more contacts, but I don't know, I [01:02:30] I don't know where people went or how they fulfilled that need, but certainly, um uh there has been, uh, there have been two now set up. And, uh, well, three, so cruise bar was, uh, set up again, And then after a further aftershock was closed because of the building next door, But it's now reopened the sauna and the two, well, the, um [01:03:00] the box. I think it was called, uh, the 61 avenue. Uh, they both closed, Um, because the buildings were in the inner city. Um, and I now see that Well, I've heard that the box and well, no, there's there was a new place that opened called the closet and set up by someone from Auckland. And, uh and that's the reports that I read of [01:03:30] that, um were less than favourable in a way because it seemed like it was set up on a shoe on a shoestring and that they were wanting people to go there and then with the money that they got, they would do further renovations. So it seemed like it was a constant thing of a building site in some ways, which may have had its own its own appeal. But, um, it's an interesting It's an interesting thing, [01:04:00] really, that these people that used to use these things that had to actually had to find other ways of meeting people.

IRN: 530
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/aids_memorial_quilt_presentation_at_te_papa.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003968
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089262
TITLE: Presentation at Te Papa - NZ AIDS Memorial Quilt
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Michael Bancroft; Nicki Eddy
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; AIDS Memorial Quilt; Aotearoa New Zealand; HIV / AIDS; Michael Bancroft; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; NAMES Project; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; Nicki Eddy; Wellington; archives; health
DATE: 3 May 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa, 55 Cable Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from a presentation given by Michael Bancroft and Nicki Eddy at Te Papa - national museum of New Zealand. The presentation was held on the same day as the official gifting of the Quilt to Te Papa, 3 May 2012. A special thank you to Te Papa for allowing us to record this event on Te Marae.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Thank you for taking time out of your busy lives to come along This lunch time I'm Michael Bancroft and I'm the chairperson, guardian of the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt. And, uh, today has been a very significant day for us. The AIDS Memorial Quilt two of which we have here on the marae stage, Um, have been formally handed over to [00:00:30] Papa this morning. Uh, there are actually 16 of these big blocks that, um, hold about 100 and 40 names of New Zealand, mainly men, but a few women and a couple of young people, um, who have succumbed to HIV and AIDS related causes during the last 24 years since the very first known case of an HIV related death occurred in New Zealand. [00:01:00] Uh, and we say no because, um, a lot of people didn't realise what HIV was in the mid 19 eighties. And, uh, people could have died prior to that without us realising but up here on the quilts. And I'll invite you at some point to go and have a look at them if you haven't had a chance already. There is one up there for Peter cut and it's got 1988 on it. And that was the very first one [00:01:30] that was made here in New Zealand. And, um, over here we have one, for Robin. Uh, that was made in the early nineties, and we're very grateful and fortunate to have his sister Nicky and niece Megan with us today. Uh, and, uh, Robin is actually going to share with you in a few minutes. Just a little something about her brother to make that quilt come to life. Um, but the the [00:02:00] AIDS quilts developed, uh, for those who you're not familiar with it. In about 1987. Some people in San Francisco which was being absolutely devastated by these this new a disease that was creeping through the mainly the gay community and they didn't know, really know what was going on. And then what happened was that people having recognised that said, Let's do something about remembering. [00:02:30] And I can't remember exactly what it was, how that triggered it. But they met together and decided to create a memorial panel. And again, I don't know the psychology of it, but they chose to make them as 6 ft by 3 ft. Now, here in New Zealand, we don't make our graves 6 ft by three. But American people do. [00:03:00] They tend to have a rectangular casket, so that was the basis on which they decided to make them look like graves. And so, in a particular way, these quilts become like a headstone, really, and individuals remembering a particular person in their lives. It might have been, as in the case of Robin, a brother and an uncle. There have been lovers [00:03:30] and partners, family members, friends and in some cases, people never knew. People at all just want to, uh, create a quilt, and we haven't got this one here today. But there is one quilt which has two sunflowers on it, and a group of people got together, and what they did was in beautiful gold material, created two sunflowers, and then they started putting [00:04:00] names of friends onto each petal, and they deliberately left two blank because Darren and Stephen knew that they were HIV and way back in the early nineties that really, almost was a death sentence. They knew they were going to die, so they left two blank petals for their own names to be added once they went, and that did happen and [00:04:30] that particular panel was completed. So what has happened over the last 24 years in New Zealand is that these AIDS quilts have grown in number. Each one of those blocks, as we call them, has generally eight panels sewn together to create a block. And here in New Zealand, we have 16 of these blocks, and we also have about a dozen panels that haven't been sewn together. And we use those for [00:05:00] small events where people couldn't possibly display one of these. So over time, this has grown with many things in life, people's ways of doing things change. And in the early 19 nineties, um, there were people dying literally almost every week, and people affected in the community would be attending a funeral, probably once a fortnight. [00:05:30] And, uh, at the time I was a celebrant, and I've conducted over 100 age related funerals myself so I can look at panels on these and not only look at the name, but I remember the person, and in many cases I was there at their death bed, and all of those things bring to life seems unusual contradiction, but they bring to life the person named. And so over time [00:06:00] medication and treatments have really affected the number of deaths. Now, I've got a private book which I've tipped over the years. Um, and it just records all the people that I've helped care for. And if you were to look at it, you see, you know, 1992 33 1994 40 90 it goes like that. And all of a sudden [00:06:30] around the mid nineties, the numbers start to decrease. Now. The most recent age related death for me was just a couple of months ago. It was the first in four years, which is a big difference to having them every couple of weeks and having panels being made one after the other. The reality is we haven't had a panel made for [00:07:00] 10 years. People's way of expressing things have changed. The number of deaths has changed and we have a little laugh. Dare I say it? But the person who died a couple of months ago was 93 and I was asked to go and visit him in 1993 because he was an old [00:07:30] man, then of 73 who had HIV, and he wasn't expected to live very long. He needed someone to support him and someone to help plan his funeral. 19 years later, we had his funeral and he was 92 and as he said to me about a year and a half before he died, Oh, Michael, [00:08:00] he said. This bloody HIV is not the problem. It's bloody old age. Yeah, when you get to 92 93. Yes, that's old age that took him. And the previous one before that that I can speak of a chap called Schlomo was a good Kiwi boy. You know, the name of Sean Maguire, who decided to become Jewish, changed his name to Schlomo, and we became [00:08:30] really close friends. There is no panel for him, but he contracted HIV at the age of 20. And after 20 years of medication, four years ago, just at Easter weekend, he had said to me, I know you won't agree with me, Michael, but I've had enough pills. I'm gonna stop taking the pills and the doctors told me about 14 to 18 months and I'll be gone well 14 months almost to the day he was gone. [00:09:00] But that's a huge difference in terms of caring and holding hands and being part of the final life journey of people. From a period of most of the time I've been associated. In the last five years, I've actually been the guardian of the quilts. Now I've got a lovely voice, and I know you like listening to me. But, Nicky, Nicky, Eddie was what we [00:09:30] called in those days a convenor of the quilts, uh, someone who would, if you like, get a committee together, see that these panels were being made and so on and particularly affected because of her own brother's situation. So it's far better now that she shares something about her brother and the particular panel. And I think, too, um, Nicky, because we're only [00:10:00] a small group when you're ready, probably makes more sense for us to go and stand up there with you. I know it's an emotional thing for you and Megan, but this is part of the gift we bring to something like today. So, you know, there will be a time for questions when Nicky is finished. If you have any but Basically what we've done today is brought these eight memorial quilts which will now become part of this New Zealand National Museum to [00:10:30] so that future generations will see what could easily have just disintegrated completely and been lost. We don't expect that HIV and AIDS is gonna go away for a heck of a long time. Even if lives are lived much longer, it'll still be around for a few generations. Yet even if we do succeed in decreasing it in New Zealand So these are very important to us. And we've just been privileged [00:11:00] to have a agree to take them as part of the national treasure, the Tonga of A in New Zealand. So, Nicky, I'll give it to you for a few minutes. And Megan, of course, too, if she wishes. Well, firstly, thank you very much. Um, and I before I start to say anything on a personal level, I just want to with all my [00:11:30] with all my heart, thank Michael and Kevin, Gareth and Roger for all the work that they've put into bringing this this New Zealand AIDS memorial quilt to our national museum. So thank you very much. And just again to acknowledge the new caregivers of it. And, um, I know it will be treated with the utmost honour and respect. So on that level, thank you very much. Um, my whole our journey [00:12:00] as a family began in 1985. Um, with HIV when I was just a young mum in the burbs in Brisbane. Um, when my young brother called to say he was coming up to Brisbane, he he needed to talk to me. And, um, for some reason, when I came off that phone call, I kind of knew somewhere in the back of my mind I knew because he had been no saint. Let me tell you, he had been no saint. And because at that point, it was, [00:12:30] um um, being perceived as a gay men's disease if you like, Um, and with all the horrendous, um, homophobic, I guess, um, policy of the time, Um, in the back of my mind. I I knew. And as it so happened, yes, when he arrived, and he's sitting across from me and he said, I don't know how to say this, and I'm sitting there. Just just say it. Just say it. Just say it, you know? And he said to me, I went [00:13:00] to the Albion Centre in Sydney and he said, and I had a test for HIV and and I looked at him and the tears came up in his eyes and he said to me and I came back positive to this day, I never thought anything more about it, other than to say to him, What can we do or what can I do? And he said, Just love and support me as you always have, and I would like to think of the family [00:13:30] from that journey in his life. We did that all the way through until seven years later when we lost him. Now I'll skip those seven years because there was good times and bad times through those seven years, because that's the journey of a person with HIV related illnesses. And um, there were, as I said, fun times. And as family we tried to get together as as as much as possible. In that time, however, he decided to come back from [00:14:00] Sydney in uh 19, late 1989. I think it was because at that time he he had become extremely unwell. And who else was going to care for him as well? Other than his family, you know? So he packed up and he came back to New Zealand and and some few months later, we did ourselves, um, came back from from Brisbane to help care for him because it was very important to us for us to, um, ensure that he left this world with as [00:14:30] much dignity as as humanly possible. So he was cared for at home all the way through in this period when he was kind of, um I guess it would be quite early 1991 when you could see the deterioration was really quite significant and that probably we weren't going to have him for Christmas 1991. And in this time, I've come back from New Zealand. And Darren Darren Horn, who Michael just spoke about earlier, used to come [00:15:00] around and give Rob massage. So he was. Darren was a volunteer with the Burnet Centre, and he would come around to give massage to Robin, and at that time he happened to Darren happened to mention to me that he was getting together with others in the committee to have an official unfolding of the unveiling of the New Zealand AIDS Memorial. And, um, did he think Robin would want to be on there? So I said, Well, I would ask him I would ask him, um and I knew that Robin knew that what the court was all about because he had been [00:15:30] at the unveiling of the unfolding of the Sydney one back in 1988. If memory serves me correctly thereabouts and, um, he I said to him, Would you like a panel made? And he said to me, Yes, yes. So you would. And I said to him in that case, what would you like put on? And he said, I don't know. I will leave that up to you. Well, he, um he passed away on the 20th of May 1991 and as it would happen, that was my son's 17th birthday. [00:16:00] Um, I might add at this point that my daughter Megan she is his birthday. So she was born on his 18th birthday, So I always figured that he kind of did that just so that nobody would ever forget him so that there were these two very significant dates that were never going to be forgotten. But moving along, um, the panel And when he decided, um, after he had passed away and we decided and we were trying to think together what to To to put together on his panel. Um, [00:16:30] And looking back at his life, um, thinking, Oh, my goodness, where do you start? And at first it actually seemed quite a daunting task the six by 3 6 ft by 3 ft panel to to have to put something in. But as I said to to Gareth a little early in the finish, it wasn't big enough because it's not that he he was a big, loud person in his life. It's just that there were so many facets to his life. And how do you put that into to to to a panel. So just very quickly. Firstly, the it was very important [00:17:00] for his nieces and nephews of the time, because he was never going to be a father. So they were his Children to him, and it was very important that they they were, um, put there, if you like, for a long time. At that point in time, Waiheke island because he was Waiheke Island born, um, and, um, live most of his adult life in Australia. The the Dolphin Because, um, one he just seemed to have a real affinity as many people do with dolphins. And, um, I believe there was such a thing as reincarnation. That's [00:17:30] where he'd be dolphin in the sea and free because he loved the sun, the beach and, um, load of winters loath the winters, um, over on the other panel there, where he's got his buttons and his chill that that that recognises the gay man that recognises how he used to like to party up at sleaze ball and Mardi Gras and anything else that might be going And, you know, the the the pink triangle if you like. Um, we we we We did that because we weren't going to put away the fact that he Yes, he he'd been a gay man. [00:18:00] He was He was proud of who he was. And, um, it was the huge part of who he was to us as well. Um, the Irish farewell. Farewell. Prayer is something my mother wanted. Um, and yes, we have some Irish ancestry in there. But I think for us it was well, until we see him again, then you know, he would be in God's keeping, um, the tartan around the the blue panel over there, um, is to recognise and acknowledge our our Scott ancestry. [00:18:30] So that was the we managed to get that done. That panel done just in a time of after six weeks of of of his going and handed into and I took it. I remember this taking it into the library at, um, just at Auckland Hospital where the workshops were happening. And, um, hand that over. And, um, it was hard. It was hard letting it go because we were still in the raw grief, or I certainly was was still in the raw grief of having lost him, but knew with all my heart, you want to be there [00:19:00] on opening night. So, um yeah, And from that grew my involvement. I you know, I used to work. I hand sow those blocks together, hand sowed those blocks together. A lot of them. Um um I was telling the story a little bit earlier. The the night of opening night. We were waiting for panel to arrive from Wellington with with Daniel Fielding so that he could That one panel was going to finish off the block for the the unveiling at the Auckland Art Gallery. And we were literally on our hands and knees, four of [00:19:30] us laughing and carrying on trying to sew this one panel and to to complete the block all before opening time. And that was completed 20 minutes before all the dignitaries arrived. So we were pretty Chuck with ourselves there. And from that came my groove. My as a volunteer, Um, um grew a little bit of a pay position for my role as a as a pay convenor. And from that point, um, I travelled and was very fortunate and privileged to travel the country with these beautiful treasures to be able [00:20:00] to use those as a tangible educational tool for for for, um, for schools and varying communities. I've been to Newland teaspoon collecting clubs with them. I've been I've been There's that song. I've been everywhere, man. Well, I'm telling you, I've been everywhere. So with these quills, um, our very first visit was on to in Northland, and that was actually going to be a very scheduled trip. That trip turned to be three weeks long because [00:20:30] it word of mouth like the bushfire does when the just went from word of mouth, word of mouth and with those courts were not to pass a marae. So there were many, many visits on to many Maria that weren't really scheduled. So, um, it was and and I have to say, a very awesome experience. They were even taken all the way to bay, and it was a pouring. It was a rainy, rainy day. It really and truly was. But, you know, as those quilts were taken out of the van each and every block and carried down to Spirit [00:21:00] Bay or the top of Spirit Bay and then fold a beautiful the sun, the clouds parted. And I kid you, not The rays of sun came down on those quilt blocks and that will be a sight. And all my life I will never, ever forget. So I've been very privileged and very honoured to have many sharing many wonderful stories and amazing journeys. I was privileged twice to be able to take part of our New Zealand quilt to Washington DC to represent New Zealand's quilt and and and our history because it's a little bit, you know, a little [00:21:30] bit different because we have our and the and and, um um and be able to speak and just say, um how we have adapted What was the names? Quilt project, If you like to to our own culture here in New Zealand. So on two occasions there, I was very fortunate, And, um and then, you know, I I was about 4. 5 5 years. I think I did that for so today, for me is on a personal level. Um, I can't express. [00:22:00] Truly. I cannot express what it means to myself and my daughter to have them here at te Papa to to live on forever and be looked after and on a professional level, I always used to say, Well, when this pandemic finishes, all I ever wanted for them to be was in a museum where they would be looked at exactly as part of our history and, um, for our resource for generations to come. So thank you very much. [00:22:30] Thank you so much, Nicky. And, you know, I could have spent that time talking but it wouldn't have been the personal story. Even though I can tell many personal stories, I just want to add one more thing. Um, many of you, if not all of you will be aware that the gay community adopted the rainbow flag, Uh, very early on as a symbol of unity and the colours of the rainbow and all of that and what Nicky said just [00:23:00] then about, um, the sun coming out on quilts. I've had several experiences in Auckland where I live, where I've been driving along the street, not in recent times. But I'd be driving my car and see a rainbow, and that subconscious in me would say, 00, and you know, before the day was over, I'd get a call. Michael, we've lost so and so uh, [00:23:30] you know, it doesn't matter what you believe or don't believe. But when a community adopts a rainbow as part of its symbolism and you see a rainbow and someone's died, it's a bit spooky, and you'll notice that most of us today have been wearing a red ribbon that again was adopted by the community to somehow express the link to remind ourselves of people who succumb to HIV [00:24:00] related causes and I might be wrong here. But, you know, we have ribbons for everything these days, but I'm pretty sure, actually, the Red ribbon was the original one, and then other people copied it. And, um, of course, America has grown to have the largest AIDS quilt of all. And I read just recently that if they were to take all of the blocks of the American AIDS group and lay them all down like we [00:24:30] have side by side, if there was a space where they could because there are 47,000 blocks of quilts and you walk past and you stood for one minute in front of each block, it would take you 33 days to view the whole quilt. You can understand why we are fortunate that te Papa has accepted our small 16 to go to [00:25:00] our national museum. A lot of other countries around the world they wouldn't know what to do with them except them. Put them in a store room. They probably will rot away somewhere. Sadly, anyone got any question? Then just take your time, uh, and have a look around anyone like to ask anything. Don't really have to, because the quilts speak for themselves. Thank you for your time. And our official time is over. But [00:25:30] I'm here to answer any questions. And thanks for being with us. And, uh, for those of you who don't know Stephanie Gibson here from te Papa has been the person very instrumental in working with the directors of the museum to see that this gift has been made today to the museum. It just wasn't practical for us to put all 16 on display today. Thank you. And, uh, have a safe journey. Thank you.

IRN: 528
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/aids_memorial_quilt_stephanie_gibson.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003967
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089261
TITLE: Stephanie Gibson - NZ AIDS Memorial Quilt
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Stephanie Gibson
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Claire Regnault; HIV / AIDS; HIV / AIDS; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; Rachael Le Mesurier; Stephanie Gibson; Tania Walters; Wellington
DATE: 3 May 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa, 55 Cable Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast history curator Stephanie Gibson talks about the process of Te Papa becoming the guardian of the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt. The Quilt was gifted in a ceremony at Te Papa on 3 May 2012. Special thanks to Te Papa for allowing us to record on Te Marae.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So it all started with, uh, Rachel from the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. Uh, acting on behalf of the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Court. Contacted Papa in 2008. I think it was a phone call or an email to start with and said, you know, would be interested in the quote coming here. And, um, I said, Well, can you write us a formal letter so we can consider it because it is quite a serious offer? I mean, it's a large collection, and we have to think a lot of things through. So she did write [00:00:30] to us formally. It's a beautiful letter. I just read it the other day. It's about a three page letter, um, describing the history and significance of the quilt, and it's actually it's actually a lovely document in its own right, so that will go on the archive anyway. So I, um, I tabled that letter with my colleagues, and, uh, we all talked about how we wanted to bring it to Papa, but that everybody needed to know what that meant. And what it meant was that the quilt could no longer be so accessible in the way that it was, [00:01:00] it could no longer be in church halls, on school floors. It couldn't be out on the grass because we had to apply museum standards. So the quilts, if they came into the museum, would be treated in quite a different way than how they had been. They'd been a very public collection. So I explained all that to Rachel and she went away and talked to everybody in that sector, and they all agreed it was too soon. It was too soon to actually give up [00:01:30] the life of the quilts, the life that they'd had. They still needed to be out in the public. So I said, That's cool. Just come back to us when you're ready, and then the next step was, I'm pretty sure it was at out games last year. You said Gareth, that you know, how are you guys going with thinking about the quilt coming to te papa? So I'm pretty sure that you actually kicked off the conversation again, and then that's when Michael approached us, and that's when I first met Michael. We had some wonderful emails and phone calls, and then [00:02:00] Michael came to Papa with you. That day and brought the one block to show us all. And that was my team. That was clear. And my boss and Tanya Walters, the collection manager, was there anybody else there that day? I think that might have been it. And we just had a wonderful time talking about the possibilities of bringing the quilt into the museum. So that was last year, 2011 Had you come across the quilt before those, uh, correspondence with with Rachel and also talking to Michael? Uh, only [00:02:30] in an international sense. I was really aware of the project internationally that I hadn't personally encountered the New Zealand quilt before, So it was wonderful to know the depth and breadth of it. I was really excited. So when you first saw a panel or a block, how did you feel? Uh, well, obviously there's an emotional and a physical response, and the emotional one is how everybody feels. [00:03:00] You feel very moved and you realise how intimate and personal they are and that time doesn't change anything. As soon as you see a name and a person being honoured by their loved ones, you feel a connection and you feel grief and sorrow. Even though you don't know them, it's very palpable. It's a really visceral experience. The curator in me, of course, immediately starts to worry about the physicality of the object, how [00:03:30] big it is, how many different materials it's made of how some of the materials look a bit unstable, might have come unpicked over time. Might be a bit dirty because they've been lying on grass. So I think these two things at once. Well, I thought those two things at once when I saw it I. I still am amazed by the scale of them, and I think that's a really huge A critical part of them is the scale in terms of impact. [00:04:00] One of the ones that really gets me is Peter, who was the the first panel, and I just I just get shivers when I When I I see that it's interesting because I don't know I. I think I my eye just picks up on the little things. Actually, I just I think I just I'm really drawn to those tiny things where you see other personalities coming through and their longing and love for people. Oh, [00:04:30] and the idea that well say with Peter's panel that it was somebody in the late eighties that wanted to remember him in this particular way and how that's kind of travelled through time. Yeah, and also how cute A lot of those memories are things like teddy bears and, um, soft toys and heart shapes and stars and, you know, pretty sort of almost hopeful positive things, like rainbows and lots [00:05:00] of colour. They were incredibly optimistic, actually, which has surprised me when I first saw them. And also there's a lot of recurring motifs. And just like, you know, everyday life has been documented on quite a few of the panels, so they're not. I mean, when I first heard about the quilt, I thought, Well, they'll all be beautifully made by sewers, people who know how to sew. I just assumed that all the sewers and families and friends got the job making [00:05:30] the panels, but I quickly realised that anybody made panels, and some of them are just made with stuck together with glue, you know, and then people have used every type of object they can possibly get their hands on. It's not organic, and everybody's had to go, which is not normal in quilt making. Normally, um, people have a bit of sewing skill in behind them before they start a quilt. So that's why I really love them as well. Everybody had to go and joined in the three dimensional aspect [00:06:00] of a lot of these quilts. Like we we're in front of, uh, one here with a big hasty camera. Uh, that's Graham Graham. Hasty haste. Graham Haste. Born 1952 died in 1988 and, uh, his family and friends created a three dimensional camera I. I presume he was a photographer or interested in photography. So this three dimensional camera is about 10 centimetres deep, and it's made from what looks like to be quite [00:06:30] an unstable rubber foam, which will deteriorate over time. So this particular panel is of concern to us, and we might actually try and isolate it out a bit from the rest of the block when we fold it up like, you know, acid free materials just so that if it does degrade, it won't affect the rest of the block. Because, generally speaking, people have used good, long lasting materials like cotton, but occasionally people have used a modern sort of synthetics, which won't last like, [00:07:00] um, like laminated paper. It's a bit of a problem for us in the museum to keep it stable. So even though the museum has a really good environment and we try and save everything for for for posterity, some things will degrade. It's beyond our control. But I think it's the minority of the quilts. Most of them are pretty robust. How? How do you document something that is three dimensional? So, for instance, this camera, how do you physically write down this as 10 [00:07:30] centimetres high? Yeah, because on our database we do all our measurements. It's all recorded. Then we describe each quilt. Uh, yeah, so that's part of my job is to physically understand it. But because the quilt website itself is so detailed, I haven't replicated all the information about what is known about each person. Basically, the two websites were just link together, So when the papa puts the quilts online, [00:08:00] you'll be able to see our description of them. But you'll also be able to link in to the the AIDS Quilt website and get deeper information about each panel because I imagine quite a lot of these panels will have, um, elements that are known to the people that made the quilt but may not necessarily resonate in 50 years time. Are you going to try and approach people and get as much [00:08:30] information about the panels as possible? Or are you just going to document as as as what? You see? I think what we document, what we see now. But, uh, we hope because of the accessibility of our collections online that people will keep us up to date or come to us and reconnect with their panels over the years. And also, uh, Kevin, that looks after the quilt website hopes the same that people will keep coming to him [00:09:00] to update. But we'll only go out proactively, probably to talk to people if we're gonna put when we put them on display and need to know a wee bit more. Probably for now, we'll just understand them as they are now. But we welcome any information, and we will add it to the database whenever it comes in. So just getting back to that meeting where Michael brought the the quilt in to show you [00:09:30] what were your kind of discussions after that meeting. What, What? What was going through everyone's minds? Well, we were all really excited and positive, but we knew that there would be conservation issues. So what what we did? The first thing we did was as a history and Pacific team, because we're one big team. It's about well, it was about eight of us. We had an acquisitions meeting, which we do every week, and we tabled the quilts and we talked about them, and we all agreed as a team that they were [00:10:00] of national significance and should be collected. So that's the first step. That's a a discussion. So then it was my job to actually write a formal proposal for to be circulated to other parts of te papa for assessment and approval. So I did all the formal writing up of the project to I had to justify it, talk about its significance and its history and how it fits into [00:10:30] te Papa's collection overall. So I did all that work. I got signed off from my colleagues and then that went to our collection development manager. And then she made sure that that proposal was all kosher. And then she sent it off to the conservation department for their assessment. And the conservatives were were then concerned with the actual materiality and the condition of the quilts and their long term survival. What were the chances of them actually [00:11:00] surviving? And that proposal was also considered by our collection management team who had to find the storage space. And those two were the key issues. So everybody understood the significance. There was never any debate over that. Everybody totally understood. They were. They should be in a museum. That was fine. But it was the size of them and the condition of them that we had to carefully and quietly work through. And that took us probably nearly a year. So we had to find [00:11:30] a space. We actually don't have enough room in our textile store. We've actually don't have this type of room. Um, but in our large history store at Tory Street, um, we found room up there. We found enough in the shelving system. So these, actually, even though they're textiles, they actually won't live in the textile collection. They'll be in the the Greater History collection. So once we realised that there was room, then the next step was to bring a conservator to [00:12:00] Auckland so she could spend a day with him and really think through all the issues and ramifications of bringing material like this into the museum, because all storage and all treatment and all care over the years costs thousands of dollars. It's like, um, basically it's like buying a house and filling it up with stuff and it's there till the end of time. Somebody's got to pay the rent. Somebody's got to pay the rates So it's a very extensive [00:12:30] process to look after large objects. So we treat it really seriously because te papa will be here for hundreds of years, fingers crossed until the end of time. So once we commit to collecting objects, we commit to their care forever, so they'll live way beyond me. So that's why it's always a group decision. It's always very carefully thought through. We're spending public money. I mean the taxpayer funds, the storage and all [00:13:00] the staff resource, a lot of the staff resource. So we have to be very careful that it's the right thing to do and so we worked all through that um, the conservator wrote up a report. The collection manager found the space. And then, uh, our collection development manager brought all the people's comments together and said, Yeah, we can approve this. We can move forward. And then it was signed off at that level, And then it [00:13:30] went to the gift, which Michael assigned, and now it is legally ours. So te papa now legally owns the actual physical objects. But we share, you know, share guardianship over the intellectual knowledge and the emotions and the the spirituality of the quilts are shared. You mentioned that these will be stored in, uh, in in some kind of environment, a history environment. Can you [00:14:00] give me an idea about what kind of conditions they'll be living living in in terms of temperature and light? So we try and keep our store rooms at about 21 to 22 degrees, and I think it's about 50% relative humidity, so it's quite a dry, warm environment. Um, the key thing is no moisture, no light, no food. Um, well, aerated. So it's a very stable environment, and it's it's we've [00:14:30] It's an international standard. That's where objects don't degrade in those conditions. Or maybe it's 55% relative humidity, sort of in there. I mean, New Zealand is a very humid country, so we do put quite a lot of control back a house into the storage areas and they will be folded. But not as much as they were in the past. I think they'll probably be folded, maybe into quarters. Some of them will be rolled, but they'll always be interleaved with [00:15:00] acid free tissue or acid free, which is a great material that you sometimes see in, um, buildings. I think it's a very robust, acid free material, so the quilt will be very comfortable and sometimes we call it intensive care. Imagine you've a patient and you've gone to hospital and you've been treated with gloves and loving care. And the sheets are all beautifully crisp and clean. It's a bit like that. It's a bit like going into hospital permanently, and the staff will wear gloves [00:15:30] when they handle the objects and they'll be stored in a relaxed manner so that there won't be all the folds that you can see now. Things will just be a bit more relaxed. I mean, there'll still be a few crinkles, but the crinkles will slowly relax out, and will the panels be cleaned? I. I think what they'll do first is stabilise the ones that are most problematic about the camera. I think there's too much to actually clean, and also you [00:16:00] don't really want to lose too much of the patina of their age. I mean, for 20 years they've been displayed in spaces where they have gained a bit of dirt. That's OK. They've had a life. These This is what we would call social history. These objects have had a life. The wear and tear is part of the story. If you make them pristine, you're taking away part of their history. You're taking away the way they were used and loved and appreciated. I think basically, [00:16:30] we just treat things that have become unstable. Or maybe there might be a really unsightly stain we might clean away. But we try not to intervene too much because you don't want to lose that part of their story, their life cycle. I'm really interested in how you've been talking, and these panels seem to work on so many different levels. Um, social history personal history. National history. Um, do you have any kind [00:17:00] of end comments for I suppose this is one part. This is a an ending of one part of the journey, but also the beginning of another. Well, I mean I. I hope that we'll be able to get the one line as soon as possible. And I hope we'll be able to do more public programmes around them. Either bring them out like this for just, um, a few hours or actually display them for a long period period of time. So I'm hoping that we can work towards that in our programme here at Papa and find the right space for them and interpret them in a really meaningful way. [00:17:30] It gets a lot of visitors in to see them. So we we we do a lot of work internally because you've only met probably the museum, part of the museum. There's also another whole huge area of the museum. That's all front of house that makes the exhibitions and does all that work. So I'll you know, we'll talk to them about how we can get them out on display and just remind people that you know material culture [00:18:00] like this is really important because, as I said before at the There's all the intangible, um, culture and behind these so which is wonderful. But the tangible culture there's no other way to experience it is there. But being in front of it, seeing the texture, the actual work that's gone into them, even the craziness of the camera here in front of you, it's [00:18:30] a It's a pretty amazing experience that you just can't get any other way. And that's what museums can give to people. They can give them a real experience. So that's what I hope we can do over the next few years is give whatever it is this real experience.

IRN: 531
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/aids_memorial_quilt_kevin_jensen.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003966
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089260
TITLE: Kevin Jensen - NZ AIDS Memorial Quilt
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Kevin Jensen
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; 2010s; AIDS Support Network; Ansett New Zealand; Aotearoa New Zealand; HIV / AIDS; HIV / AIDS; Kevin Jensen; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; Nelson; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; Nicki Eddy; Peter Cuthbert; Takaka; Wellington; West Coast; education; school
DATE: 3 May 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa, 55 Cable Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Kevin reflects on taking the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt into the community, and designing the quilt website. The recording was made just after the official gifting ceremony of the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt to Te Papa - the national museum of New Zealand. Special thanks to Te Papa for allowing us to record on Te Marae.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Kevin. We're just standing with two blocks of the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt, and we're actually standing in front of the first panel, which is Peter Cuthbert's. When did you first become aware of the quilt? It must have been back in the early 19 nineties, Uh, when I became involved with Nelson HIV AIDS Support Network and we were looking at, uh, bringing Well, we heard about the quilt through the network, and we looked at the possibility of bringing it to Nelson. And I think [00:00:30] it was 1994 when it came to Nelson for the first time with Nicky Eddie, who was the coordinator, and that she bought eight blocks down with her, and we took it on a two week tour of Nelson together. And each block has how many panels 88 panels per block. And, of course, each panel measuring 6 ft foot by three means. Each block is 12 ft by 12 ft, which is roughly 3. 5 metres by 3. 5 metres, which is is quite a size. [00:01:00] So bringing that many blocks down to Nelson. How did how did Nicky go about kind of shipping them down back in those days, airlines was operating and they actually transported the quilt around the country free of charge. And so we made use of the services there to bring it down to Nelson. And then when it left Nelson, it actually went up to Taranaki to do a tour of Taranaki and the and took it up. So you were saying that it toured around Nelson? Where where did you tour it? [00:01:30] And and can you explain to me, um, what the reaction was like, uh, we spent a week going around some of the high schools and secondary schools. We even took it right over to and that which is a good couple of hours, the way we had use of a, um the hospital board allowed us to use one of their vans for the day, and we used that to take it over to and, uh, we also spent a week with with it on display in the cathedral in Nelson [00:02:00] and that particular display in the cathedral. I know there is at least one panel on the block on the quilt today, which specifically mentions that display where the person who commemorates actually saw the quilt for the first time hanging in the cathedral. So it was the cathedral and schools were were there. Were there other places that it was? No, that was all we did at that stage. I was just there for the two weeks and sort of, like a different school every day. Except the day we went to when it was [00:02:30] a in the morning and then over to at lunchtime for the afternoon session there was it easy to get into schools? Um, some. Yes, some. No. Um, we still to this day have not had a definite yes or no from Nelson Boys College, but I've had the quilt in there three times since. So yeah, the reaction. It varied a lot. I didn't have much trouble at all. Really? In getting it into the schools? [00:03:00] Um, most of the hassles, if you could call it hassles of getting it into schools, came on, uh, subsequent tours later on, like one that comes to mind was in 2002. I think it was when I took it down the west coast, where there was, uh, schools that just didn't bother to get back to me or to the, uh, the health board person who was doing a lot of organising for me. Um, there's one definite flat No, right from the beginning. [00:03:30] But, um, there's other times I went I I actually went down there a year or two earlier, and I asked what would be the possibility, Like of bringing it into the school. And the principal said to me If you got it in the car now and bring it in now, if you have which, uh, unfortunately, I didn't have. But I ended up there in 2002 and had a very good day there. And that was at reef. Done. Did you take other people with you to explain the quilt? [00:04:00] Or were you Were you, um, running kind of workshops? It was basically a one man band. Take it, and we set up the displays on the floor. Um, usually And then the classes came through, um, two or sometimes three classes together. Um, we concentrated on the year tens for 14 year olds and or fourth form, and they we had them for a whole period. We talk about, uh, HIV [00:04:30] and AIDS. What? It is what It isn't how you get it, how you don't get it. And then about the quilt, the story about the quilts and that. Then we'd have a look at the, um They had a chance to have a closer look at at the quilts and that and walk around them and talk about them. And then we'd come back together again, sort of talk a bit about more about the quilts if anyone had any specific questions, and then we would talk about how to protect themselves and they, um, including a full safe sex message. What [00:05:00] were the reactions like from the students? It was amazing as there some schools in particular where it was, I was really blown away. The kids had obviously talked about it amongst themselves, at playtime at the interval and lunch time. And that and the classes later on in the day came back with questions. So which is how I knew they'd obviously been talking about it and that, and they they had some awareness, which was good at the end of it. There's one particular display I did [00:05:30] in a school where, um, at interval towards the end of the interval one of the teachers came in and had a look and that and she started getting a bit tearful. We always carried a box of tissues with us knowing that would happen. And, um, some of the senior girls were around and as well, and she started talking about at the end of the communist regime in Romania and that how she actually went over to look after some of the AIDS affected, uh, orphans [00:06:00] and that and the way they were treated. And that is being almost subhuman. And that, and by the the bell, went at the end of the interval to go back to class and that and they still carried on talking for about 10 minutes. Quarter from now they're together and that I think there wasn't a dry eye amongst everyone present. And from what I can gather, it was the first time that she had actually been able to talk about the about her experiences in that in Romania And that and yeah, [00:06:30] a very, very moving, uh, period of time in the presentations. Did you find that there was a moment where it suddenly clicked for people? Um, it varied some. Yes, some No, uh, there's one school in particular with the boys in particular. Senior boys. They just couldn't be interested. And the girls are in the class, were most apologetic about their behaviour, and and they were really full of questions. [00:07:00] And they Yeah, they In general, though, the reception was really brilliant. There's I've lost count of the number of times that teachers have said to me. I've never seen the class that quiet before. Yeah, so obviously, the message did get through was getting through to some degree. In nearly all cases, I imagine taking these panels around, um, the chance of being desensitised a wee bit. If you were telling some more stories time after [00:07:30] time, how did did you ever find that? And and if you did, how how did you kind of counter that? Uh, at times it was a little bit sort of towards the end of the tour and that, But then again, uh, you start getting the reactions and that from the from the kids and that you knew you were on the right track and it kept you going. And that, of course, in the next time we had the quilt down there were different blocks and that involved, and they still kept it going that way. Are there any [00:08:00] specific panels that just really kind of get to you? This one? The block seven, The block. I know that there's a There's two panels side by side on that, Um, when the the story was first told to me, that particular block was all assembled on the Northland. And these, uh, one of the people on one of the two panels was, uh, interested in genealogy [00:08:30] and had the initials of his ancestors, And they had written on the side and the people, the family members for the one next to this as the block was being as actually being joined together. So what do those mean? And that and they got talking. And it turns out that one person whose memory remembered on one side his ancestors sold land to the people on the adjoining panel. So yeah, [00:09:00] it's quite a sort of quite sort of a weird sensation movie at the time. And I'm actually feeling it now, too. Yeah, after that tour in the mid nineties, what was your next involvement with the the quilt? Um, it's been sort of ongoing, uh, sort of all the time, really right through. And it all started from there. Just so whenever we sort of thought I would bring some of the quilt down to Nelson. And that [00:09:30] sort of ended up being sort of de facto coordinator of the support network and coordinating all these things. And, um oh, we also had, um, helped a father make a panel for a son he had lost. Uh, that is still one of the individual panels that hasn't been joined to a quilt. Um, yes, there's a bit of my needle work on that, along with the, uh, part of the table. That one nearly came complete with the oak table, because we, uh, [00:10:00] superglued a bit of material on that wouldn't stick in the glue soak right through the oak table. But thankfully, we managed to separate her to add. You can still see a little bit of varnish attached to the back of the paddle. You went from there, and I've always sort of maintained an interest in the quilt and that, and right up until the present day, uh, with having, uh, created the website for the quilt as well, which I still maintain. [00:10:30] We'll get on to the website in just a minute. But I'm just wondering, what can you describe for me? What it was like to actually be part of making a panel and and and and working with with somebody who's lost somebody to HIV and a ID, Uh, at that stage, we initially he came. His son actually died in London and he came to me and we got talking and that and sort of Towards the end of it, I sort of mentioned about the fact that they had [00:11:00] the quilt existed and they told him about it. It would be a lovely idea. And that and he came along to one of the meetings of the support network, which we had on a monthly basis back then and he from there we all sort of make a a panel and that, and we help him do it and which he he was most thankful for. And and even to today. Um, just a couple of weeks ago, I was talking to him and said that the quilt was actually coming here to Papa and he was [00:11:30] wrapped with that news and that it was coming here to the quilt was coming to Papa on a permanent basis and yeah, it was really good. But we together making it. We shared a lot of He shared a lot of memories with us about his son. Um, there's actually a twin. Um, I think is the oldest of the two twins. And there was another older brother as well. And I was talking about with the when his wife was pregnant with the twins. He used to live just down [00:12:00] the road from the hospital and took took his wife to the, uh, to the hospital to deliver the twins and we all that we had a lot of from the memories. Sure there was the but there's still a lot of laughter of that around the table as well. So yeah, a lot of good memories from that time with all of us here together. And there is actually a photo of that on the website of us making that quilt. [00:12:30] So the website how did that come about and and and why is that important website came about as a, uh as a permanent memorial to to the quilt. I was always been thinking in the back of my mind for some years. What is going to happen to the quilt eventually? Um, all that work and love and everything that's gone into it, uh, what's going to happen? Uh, And then, um, was talking with, uh, Michael Bancroft there about [00:13:00] the, um the sort of the possibility of doing a website. Uh, there'd been talk from, um, Rachel and from the AIDS Foundation about, uh, the creation of a site, and it just sort of grew from there. I sort of said, Well, I can do this and do that. And yeah, they took one and one, and I actually did a dummy site from some of the information that I had and took it up to Auckland showed them and, [00:13:30] uh, yeah, they were really blown away with what they saw and said, Go for it. I've got God from there. When you first started out on the website, how was it trying to collate all that information? Um, a lot of the early stuff was precomputer days. Really, Uh, for some of the early panels, But, um, eventually was able to get hold of the archives that, uh, Michael had and was able to go through those and sort out [00:14:00] all the relevant details regarding the panels and everything. And also the a lot of the stories were eventually actually put on to computer by the quilt network, uh, sorry of the quilt project. And they and Michael actually gave me a copy of all those files. And that's so there's quite a lot of cut and paste from those original files onto the website, which cut down a lot of work. And it also saved a lot of research, too. Just once, I found [00:14:30] out just how the the files and that were arranged on the disc and just went from there, and I got hold of the physical files themselves. So I've done a lot of updating as well, and that included photographs and everything that were on those that were included with the files but never included with the display information. So when a family or friends or loved ones donated a quilt panel, did they also donate stories and other [00:15:00] memorabilia around that person? So because I mentioned it would be quite hard to to track people down now to get those kind of stories It's very, very difficult to track down people these days. Um, there's there was no actual compulsion to, but we asked if they could give a story about it. They just sort of explain just sort of the significance of various things on the panels and that, uh, sadly, there's still about 2025 panels that we still have no information on. As it turned [00:15:30] out this morning, I've actually met up already with someone who made one of the panels and where we don't have the information and she's going to send it to me, too, so I can get it up on the website. So But there is provision on the website for people to make contact with me so we can get that information there. And if there's a panel there for someone who has a, um A. Even if they've got a story in that there and they want to add their own memory of that person, that can be done quite [00:16:00] easily, and there's about half a dozen panels already. With that second one case, I think a third edition being done. So the original materials from the quilt project So the the the quilt and also the the archival documents and photographs are now with te Papa. What what are your thoughts about? That couldn't go to a better place, so we know that they will be looked after, Um, all the work. That and the love that's gone into that work over the years. [00:16:30] It hasn't gone to a waste. It will still be in existence. And that and even though it might be difficult to access them physically here at Papa, they it's still accessible in the digital format and that as well, particularly with the wonderful photographs, all the blocks and that which and they allowed us to use on the website.

IRN: 529
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/aids_memorial_quilt_nicki_and_megan.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003965
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089259
TITLE: Nicki and Megan - NZ AIDS Memorial Quilt
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Megan Butcher; Nicki Eddy
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Beverly Jelicich; Catherine Tizard; HIV / AIDS; Megan Butcher; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; Nicki Eddy; Wellington
DATE: 3 May 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa, 55 Cable Street, Te Aro, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Nicki and Megan reflect on the quilt panel they made for Robin - Nicki's brother. The recording was made just after the official gifting ceremony of the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt to Te Papa - the national museum of New Zealand. Special thanks to Te Papa for allowing us to record on Te Marae.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: OK, This panel was made for my brother Robin muy in the months leading after May 1991 and in the months leading up to October of 91 when the official unveiling was going to be and we've been asked to create a panel for him. Prior to that, though, I had asked him what he wanted on his panel, um, for the quilt. And he said he didn't know he would just leave it up to us. So, yeah, was that a hard conversation [00:00:30] to have? It was in some ways, um, except that he had actually been at the Australian unveiling. I think that was in about 87 or 88. If memory serves me correctly. So he really understood it and he wanted to be. He wanted to be there on opening night. That much I do know. But it was not particularly difficult. I was actually looking for some input. He always had quite a voice in his life, and I sort of figured he might want to have some input here. So, um but no, he left it up to us. And so we've made it very, very family orientated. [00:01:00] Can you describe what's on his panel. OK, well, firstly, I think, um, first and foremost, um, the the little map there, Uh, Waiheke Island, which is in the Gulf of New Zealand, Um, is where he was born on the second of May 1958. And we've put a rainbow across that going to Australia because that's where he spent a lot of his adult life the dolphin, Because I always figured that, um, you know, if there was such a thing as reincarnation, then that's what he'd want to be in [00:01:30] the ocean free. And, um and and wild, if you like the sun because he lived for summer, um, around that blue panel of the sea because he loved the sea and and point of fact was born on Waiheke Island and was literally on the sea on a ferry within two hours of him being born to come to the main land. Um, that surrounded him in tartan for his, um his his his Scottish heritage or what? Yeah, all our four mothers and four fathers came out here and [00:02:00] that, you know, my dad's just a first generation New Zealanders, so, um yeah, and then the Robin M. Um, it's not because we didn't want to put a surname on this particular panel. It's just that there wasn't any room to get everything on. So, um, that's that The buttons over in the other corner there, of course, are from his button collection. And, um, yeah, you know, he loved Mardi Grass. He loved, um, sle ball and, um, spent some time in San Francisco. So in the eighties, of [00:02:30] course, when you know all the the Harvey milk and gay rights issues were happening there. So he's been quite an activist in his time. Um, then down here, um, is the at the time, his nieces and nephews, uh, and the ages they were at the time of his death. So, um, they are quite predominant. And just coincidentally, under the second of May is, um, my daughter Megan's handprint because she was born on his 18th birthday. [00:03:00] And my son Bryce is under the 20th of May because he passed away on the 20th of May, which was Bryce's 17th birthday. So, um, yeah, very, very family orientated. And then I don't know why we chose the Irish farewell prayer because there is some Irish ancestry there. But, um, I'm not sure whether it was something mother wanted it that, you know, Mum wanted on there as her little, but just so that she felt someone, and we all did that someone was going to, you know, hold [00:03:30] them in the palm of the hand. And until we meet again. So, yeah, um, I think that's yeah. From looking here on and the roses just because he loved he loved roses. Yeah. Hm. Can you describe for me what it was like to actually create this into? I mean, obviously, all these things mean a great deal to Robin and the family. So what was it like, actually creating this and and and shaping it? Wow, it was. Where do you begin at first of all, when [00:04:00] you're faced with, well, not face. But, you know, the the the significance of the six by three panel, of course, was the fact that that is the size of a normal grave plot. And, um, globally. And, um, when you're faced with this piece of area and you think Oh, my goodness, what am I going to fill it up with? And then it actually became a case of Oh, well, well, where do we stop? Um, so, um, it was just a little bit of everything from his life, you know? And and most importantly, [00:04:30] we really wanted to acknowledge his the fact that he was a gay man because he was proud of that and had marched again and many human rights. So it was a case of, um, just lots of family effort and thought about what it was. And in fact, we before we actually stitched the all the pieces onto the panel, I remembered very distinctly having the panel on the floor with all the pieces on it. And I was standing on top of a couch, actually on the the back of the couch to see, [00:05:00] looking down on it, what it would look like. And coincidentally, Tina Turner's Simply the best song came on to the radio. And, um, at that time and I thought, Well, bingo, we we're there because that's the very song we we sent him out of chapel with at on the day of his funeral. So, as I said, you know, and and and don't think I mentioned the red and the black on the on the panel is, um, and name because he was a big North Sydney Sydney fan. I thought it was really for the males that were on the team, but anyway, um, [00:05:30] myself. But anyway, um, and and the silver, because that was his favourite jewellery. He liked silver jewellery as opposed to, um, gold jewellery. So yeah. So once we got going with it, it was honestly, about Well, where do we stop? Because his life encompassed so much. And, um, we But he was quite a simple person. He wasn't a really over the top person, so we tried to keep put as much in there without being too over the top and too busy. I suppose it was a bit busy when we look at it now, [00:06:00] isn't it? But family, simple life, pretty much it's his other side of his life is just But as a kid, I didn't see much of that because Yeah, he kind of had it from us, But no, it was awesome. He was cool. So, Megan, this is your handprint at At what age were you when you did this? I was 15. I was 15. He was? Yeah, said He was 33 and I was 15 when he died. So and that was 18 days [00:06:30] after our birthday. He actually he passed away. So was difficult. Very difficult as a teenager had you encountered, um, HIV aids before this through Uncle Rob. I mean, we didn't really know. Well, we knew he was sick. But I think until we until we got older and then when we came back to New Zealand in 91 then it was then it really hit me as to like that this was gonna kill him. And it's just but I. I mean, [00:07:00] a lot of my friends at school. Back then, they had no clue. It was just like because it wasn't It wasn't a well known disease way back then to say Lucky it is. Now, though it is now. In fact, Megan, do you recall the very first high school we ever took the quilt into was Carton Girls High School. And, um, that would perhaps have been about 92 because and one of the reasons we took it in there was because at high school [00:07:30] there was Megan, my daughter, and my two nieces, Amy and Kylie. They were attending Ks Girls High School. And we felt that it might be, um, a good way of, um, just opening up and making it a safe way for them to be able to share with their friends the experience and the grief they were going through because, um, often, I believe when there is a death in the family, you know, we forget that Children or or young people are going [00:08:00] through some kind of grief themselves, you know, because as adults we're quite consumed, you know? And it was very different for these young women at this girl's high school To be able to talk about safely without people being mean and nasty is, you know, the the gay, the gay disease. And so I mean, if you say you say to them, Well, my uncle died of AIDS instantly, it was like So he was gay. Then I'm like, Yeah, but it makes no difference. Anybody can get it. And I mean, that's I mean, through most of my speeches, I had [00:08:30] to do at high school that they were always about HIV a IS to educate them that it's it's not just a gay disease. I mean, yeah, anybody can get it, no matter how old. No matter how that was the time. I guess that was the time that it was perceived as being a gay disease. And it's just so that first quilt showing in the school did you You got up and spoke? No, no, I don't think I did. No, it was my mom. Mom, Mom spoke for us, [00:09:00] but, um, we didn't We didn't actually get them. And it was only there weren't that many girls in the school, and anybody that knew us would have known that it was my mom talking to a bit. But no, I guess again. And at that time, we took, uh, a woman living with with HIV along with us. She, you know, may I'd like to just remember her today, um, because she's no longer with us. But yes, again, it was just being able to put the woman's perspective on it because we were in this all girls high school. So and, [00:09:30] um, I believe that it was a really positive because I certainly know that Amy and Kylie, you know, were were were able to then feel more comfortable about being able to say, And then they felt quite proud that they were able to say, Oh, this is my handprint on this quilt. You know, this is my handprint on this quilt. And this person, um, is part of our family and always will be. Do you do you think actually making the panel was Was [00:10:00] it a cathartic experience or what kind of experience was it for you guys? Certainly was, I think, honestly, really Healing lots and lots of tears. Lots and lots of tears go into it because, of course we made this. I began making this about three weeks after he had passed away because wanted to make sure that it was ready. In fact, I believe we handed in just approximately six weeks after he had passed away to the the workshop. If you like getting ready for, um, opening night at the Auckland [00:10:30] Art Gallery on the fifth of October 1991 and, um so it was certainly it helped with the the the the raw grief. I guess that's a good way of saying it, you know, because you are raw grief for a good 12 months afterwards, Well, I know that I certainly was. And, um, yeah, so for me, it was healing. Um, guess so. But it was I mean, my my 16th birthday [00:11:00] was really hard because yeah, for the for the first for the couple of weeks leading up to it. I'm expecting something from Uncle Robert card or anything because he never, ever missed my birthday. And then I actually didn't get anything. I mean, yeah, my my 16th birthday was pretty miserable. I hated it, actually. I mean, for most girls, it's what they kind of turning point Happy sweet 16. And, you know, for me, all I wanted to do was hide in my bedroom and cry, but, um but no, I remember we had the we had the party. Anyway, [00:11:30] I did. It was still there, but it was extremely, extremely difficult. I mean, as the years have gone on, it's gotten easier, but especially on our birthday, I just It's still not nice. Not nice, because I've still got all the soft toys and anything he pretty much gave me. I've still got this. They sort of come out, but I mean, but, um so over the years, when when you've seen his panel. Do your feelings [00:12:00] change towards the panel? Or is it Does it take you right back? I'm proud. I mean, especially now. I want to see where it is now, but it always brings back whenever you even just seeing the photos of it online or whatever. I mean, it still just brings back. Brings back the memories of of who he was to me because I didn't see him a lot because he was in. We were in New Zealand and stuff, but no, he's Yeah, he'll always be there. He'll always be there. [00:12:30] And it was just It was It was I mean, I. I know it would have been my heart for my mom to look after him, and, um, I probably didn't go down and see him as much as I could, but I couldn't handle. I couldn't handle watching him die. So So this year he would have been held 4. 54 54 yesterday. Yes. Yes. So and I was just having a discussion with Megan last night. Um, about Well, I wonder what he would have been as a 54 [00:13:00] year old man. Um, and would he have been a nice 54 year old man would have been. Oh, you know, grumpy 54 year old man. Let me think about this. You know, true. Absolutely. And, um, ultimately. But, you know, time stopped for him at 33. And that's how we remember him at the age of 33. So, um and, you know, the the the the good years that he had and and the not so great years that he had, you know, But as a family, um, we loved [00:13:30] him unconditionally. And, um, yeah, every single day he walked with us. And this today, here at Papa. Um, yeah. Just as Megan said, I'm feeling very honoured and very privileged, and he would so so want to be here. He would really appreciate the history because the quilt history, the the the gay history, I think I said a little bit earlier the many, many layers of history that that lay [00:14:00] behind these panels, um, human rights, the whole lot. You know, politics just so much lays behind these quilts and to bring us here today is just awesome. Just fabulous for mom to say that he walks with us all the time literally, he does, because I actually had I've got a red ribbon tattooed on my leg and a memo to Uncle Rob So which I had done a done a couple of years ago. So, yeah, it was very it was strange because I'm 36 now. And when I turned 33 [00:14:30] it was just all day. All I could just wonder, was my Uncle Rob? Never, ever. Uncle Rob never ever got further than this. And it's just like it's really no life at all, really. I mean, back when I was 15, it was like, Oh, that's it's not much packed into those exactly where I always remember where it was awesome. One of the things that struck me in seeing a lot of these panels [00:15:00] is just the age, the very young age of people you know, A lot of people in their late twenties and their thirties. Yes, and unfortunately, that was the the average age. In fact, I think if my memory serves me correctly at the time from statistics, the average age was 31 years of age, I believe at at the time, through those you know, late eighties and nineties and, um, all I can say today, here in 2012 was, Thank God, goodness for medication. [00:15:30] Thank goodness for research that, you know, I have a friend who's now lived with this virus. Or actually two. I'm thinking of them now. Two friends who have lived with this virus since 1988 89 and, uh, are with us today and because for some reason, they're metabol metabolism. Click with the drugs as harsh as they were in the early days, um, and and are able to live well and happy and and carry on their careers today. So we've come a long way in 25 [00:16:00] years, as Michael was saying earlier, that no quilts have to be added to it. That's that's I mean, it's sad that they're coming here, but yeah, I mean, it's a good thing to show that people are staying alive from it. Now you can get it, and it's not just a terminal disease anymore. That's what's brilliant. That's what's brilliant. And there's there's no there's no need for these on such a huge scope anymore. Not not Not like 20 years ago, [00:16:30] Nikki, you were at the major unveiling in Auckland in 1991. And you were also at the handing over ceremony ceremony to te Papa last weekend in 2012. So you've spanned 21 years. Um, what has it been like having the quilt in your life for 21 years? Like I can merely say honestly again, it's always very humbling. And I guess humbling because [00:17:00] you get to share in all these awesome lives. You know, I just to to know. And I could stand here and walk around and still to this day almost tell you a story behind each and every one of these panels just laying in front of us, you know, because, you know, I got the privilege of being able to travel with them around the country and tell these stories and just be the verbal voice. I mean, everybody knows the court itself, once it's open, speaks for itself. But just that verbal voice at different times. And, um, it's [00:17:30] truly been an honour and privilege. In fact, a mom I met the other day, um, when we were at Saint Matthew's in the city, be jealous, and I met because of a working bee. Uh, for for the quilt, you know. And she handed her her son Michael's quilt. And at the time, and then I must have done robs. And then it was just everybody helping everybody to to get these quilts sewn together for opening night. And I think just right now is probably really appropriate to share. And I'd like to just mention Daniel Fielding because it's really appropriate, too, that these quilts in some [00:18:00] ways have come back to Wellington because Daniel Fielding had, you know, began sort of the quilt here. And I remember on opening night at the Art Gallery in Auckland, we were all waiting apprehensively for one panel to arrive from Wellington on the back of Daniel's motorbike, and it was raining and pouring and horrible and all this kind of thing. But I can just remember be and myself and a couple of others literally. Once Daniel got, they're shaking off, you know, the rain drops off his leathers of his motorbike and racing into the art gallery, and we [00:18:30] had that panel. We had to get on our hands and knees all this cot and thread in the art gallery and sew this panel into the final block. That particular block And that was all done about 20 minutes before Dane out and the and the the Dignitaries arrives. So yeah, just all those neat fun stories and the laughing that carried on. And that's what I'm going to say about this quilt, the laughter, the stories. It has just been an awesome, awesome journey, and and and And it will never end, you know, because you [00:19:00] know, there will always be new panels made, and it will be you know, added, I guess, one day to this. But in the interim, you know, it's been nothing but an honour and a privilege and, um, and a really fitting place as a national for for them to lay and be forever 11 thing that Michael said at the um ceremony this morning, Michael Bancroft was not only we bringing panels in, but they're actually [00:19:30] the people. And I just like that idea that actually it's binding people in the panels to the people carrying the panels and and the family members carrying the panels. I'm wondering, um, what are your thoughts on it being in Papa living here? It's awesome because at least they are gonna be treasured, they they'll be preserved forever. Whereas, yeah, I mean, Michael, can I do so much? Whereas [00:20:00] the museum's got they, they've got so much better technology than than pretty much a cupboard, but just the resources to be able to preserve them so that that they are around for all time. They are around for all time, which it's just It's unbelievable. It's primo. It's very good, Yes, I guess. And for me, just personally on on on two levels, I guess. Having been involved many years with as the convenor with the quilt, it's, um, it's a letting go in that sense, but [00:20:30] you know, they won't you know? Yes, they'll be accessible, but on a different level, you know, and, um, and for me personally, it's a little bit of a letting go. I've had a little bit of a good cry this morning because again it just evokes as Michael said, all these memories, all these memories and the love and the laughter And yes, the the the pain and the tears that that that, um, have have gone into making this quilt. But, you know, ultimately our our love and our losses are all the same. And, um, I guess again, [00:21:00] I'll use the word again. It's that common thread that brings us together. So, yeah, on that. I'm glad they're here. I'm glad they're all together. They've all travelled many, many physical miles together and kilometres together. And as families, we've all travelled many, many emotional miles together. So or kilometres, whichever whichever whichever side of the Pacific you want to be on. But yes, certainly. Um it's, uh, very proud and honouring moment [00:21:30] on A on a personal family level, but certainly on a national and even a global level. Because how many museums? Um, again, I think has been really forward thinking and and accepting these, um, wonderful, wonderful treasures today to to preserve all the history that's behind them. Uncle Robert love it. He'll always be on show Now. Do you think he was that flamy? No. No. [00:22:00] Surely he could be mother. Mother, Mother. He was gay. Come on. Yes, you're right. All right. Yeah. One of the things that struck me when Michael was speaking about the quilts coming into Ta Papa and them saying they won't be touched by human hands again. I actually made a point of touching them because I, I mean, personally, I felt that, um in some ways, [00:22:30] that's a real shame that actually they were made by human hands for human hands. But I can absolutely understand the preservation. You know, I absolutely understand that. And and, um, trust me, Gareth, I'll be taking one more sneak touch before I leave here today. Just because, you know, for that very reason, I the quilt has always been very tangible. You know, it's always been very touchable, and that's what makes it what it has been, you know? But again, I certainly certainly understand. Like, the reason we have so many historical books is because [00:23:00] they have been preserved and away from human hands, and no different for these. You know, I'm very impressed with the way these have all stood up to wear and tear, though, you know, all the folding and unfolding over 21 years, you know, and that people have really thought about that in their making. So, yeah, um, it's a big letting go, but just another journey for the quilt. I'm just wondering. Just wrapping up. Uh, do you have any kind of other final thoughts or final things that you would want to put on tape. [00:23:30] And I can't think of anything at this moment except to say, Love you, Robyn. Always well. And, um yes. Yeah. Just know that you'd be real proud to be here today Very much so. Love you, apes. [00:24:00] Mhm.

IRN: 532
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/aids_memorial_quilt_packing_the_quilt_for_te_papa.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003964
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089258
TITLE: Packing the Quilt for Te Papa - NZ AIDS Memorial Quilt
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Sara Guthrie; Stephanie Gibson
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; HIV / AIDS; Michael Bancroft; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; Sara Guthrie; St Matthew-in-the-City; Stephanie Gibson; Wellington
DATE: 29 April 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: St Matthew-in-the-City, 132 Hobson Street, Auckland
CONTEXT: In this podcast history curator Stephanie Gibson and collection manager Sara Guthrie pack the last two blocks of the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt for transport to Te Papa. The recording was made just after the gifting ceremony in Auckland at St Matthew-in-the-city, Sunday 29 April 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So these are we specially bought these suitcases to fit a quilt each. They're hard to sell so that, um, if anything is on top, it can't just can't buckle it. So it's a little bit like Michael's method, really, the method he's used for years, which is travelling in a suitcase, which we were kind of shocked by when we first met him. But actually he's very sensible. It's the only way to do it. So you have a suitcase for each block? Yes, because we thought that would be the most comfortable and [00:00:30] we wouldn't have to over fold them and these can actually go into the hold of the plane. They'll be safe because it's fairly firm and being textile as well. There's a bit more flexibility in them as an object. They're not gonna crack or get damaged. So have you already transported the other 14 blocks? Yes. Now Sara organised all that freighting so she can tell you a bit about that, but they're all safely in Wellington now, So at the everything will be gifted that, [00:01:00] um, this is what we wrap in storage. It's called. It's the same material that, uh, people use in crime scenes. Pathologists, because it is, um, ear can breathe through it, but it's water repellent, so it's perfect for textiles on everything that the quilts will be wrapped in will be acid free to protect them and the temperature and humidity controlled room, and they'll be more [00:01:30] loosely stored than they are now. At the moment, they're quite tightly put into sacks. We'll relax them, unfold them a bit and put them onto big shelving, deep shelving so they won't be totally unfolded. It will be more relaxed than they are now. We're gonna have meetings to discuss it with the conservatives at because each one's individual some have applied work like plastic masks or ribbons. Um, if it's just a straight out two D quilt, we can roll it, but the ones [00:02:00] that have 3D components, we will have to think of A. We haven't come up with the idea yet, but we're gonna get together with the conservatives to work it out Now. Michael was saying that, um, once they get into ta Papa, no human hands will touch these again and you're wearing gloves. So is that correct? That that there will be never a human hand on these again. Uh, yeah. The collection scientific team at Papa would like that. Um, we wear gloves so that the the oils on your fingers can't get get on to [00:02:30] it and erode the textile. Um, it is one of the rules. The textiles are really easily degraded, but it's a little bit different sometimes. Um, also has living collections and a family come, There are It's a different situation. It's sort of taken case by case. So will this collection be seen as a living collection? I think so. It's there for the family so that it's accessible and [00:03:00] and I mean it really is. You just need to ring up, make a make an appointment and come in and see whichever one you want to. We get them out. That happens all the time. So it's kind of our role as the access. Yeah, and what I'm gonna do is just to leave it with acid free tissue and then keep rolling and the tow vehicle will go around the outside and we'll tie it together with cotton tape and then put plastic on the outside of the suitcase. [00:03:30] And as soon as they get to papa. They're going into quarantine. Um, and then we will unroll them pretty much tonight so that they, you know, the folds don't press in. I mean I mean you need, um Yeah, they're quite heavy. So when you say quarantine what What does that mean? Uh, anything that's bought, uh, that's external brought in into Papa Goes through a quarantine room. First, it's checked for bugs. [00:04:00] Um, any pollutants that will come in and contaminate the rest of the collection. So we have preventative conservators or preventative conservator and his assistant, and they'll check it on Monday. Um, possibly fumigate. Then we just take it into storage. That happens to everything that comes in. How I'm not quite sure how it's been. It's heavy, isn't it? And it is. This is the small one. [00:04:30] The others that are already there are much bigger. These were the smallest. Um, we asked for that so it would be easier to transport them. Um, and this doesn't have any of the 3D applied items that I was talking about. This is going to be viewed as a living collection, isn't it? I wasn't too sure A living collection. Isn't it accessible by family. Well, you [00:05:00] people, friends, family, partners, researchers anybody with a genuine interest in the courts will be allowed to make an appointment and come and see them. And that's actually very straightforward. All you have to do is email or phone. Give us a couple of days warning. That's actually the easiest way to access them. And then any more formal requests, we just need to take time and think things through about what the best thing is to do. We will be on a case by case basis that [00:05:30] could take because they're so large they could take a little bit more time than than we normally would taking something out, especially if they're going to be rolled. Do you think they will ever leave the te papa building? I think what normally happens is that people ask to borrow things for displays, and then we consider if their place is safe enough. So we look at security and environment just to see whether or not they can actually provide the right security and clean [00:06:00] and safe environment. And then we, um, helped them. We know we get the quote to them and help them with the display. Yeah, but it won't be the same as it has been in the past. We wouldn't be, for example, we probably wouldn't lend them for a place with no security, is it not? Or at risk of maybe having lots of people [00:06:30] running around with food or we try to lend to, Um, usually it's other institutions, but we ask that they have the right temperature and humidity and lighting that we have. So sometimes it's only accessible via appointment if it's easier. But we do lend things out all the time because there is the aim now that it's in the papa collections to basically be permanent forever. The idea is to save it for posterity, and so, until the end of time, basically. But the thing is, [00:07:00] some of the materials that have been used in the quilts are deteriorating, like the latex rubber, the glue, the plastic. They will die, they will crumble so parts of the quilt will self destruct, and there's nothing you can do about it, no matter how great your museum is. But that said, I would say most of the quilt is from good quality textiles that will last hundreds of years because now they're in a safe environment, will only lend [00:07:30] them out to other safe environments. So that much there'll be much less risk from now on. That's the idea of bringing them in. You just have to reduce risk and also to honour their significance. The rubber and plastic, um degrades fast, especially rubber, um, and certain textiles like silk. So there will be parts that will degrade faster than others. But we have conservatives who will be checking this as well. Um, but I hope I mean, the plan is for it to last and last permanently. [00:08:00] And so if people say, say, somebody comes and says, Oh, we must have a quilt, we must have it this weekend and we want it to put it in our school hall, we might have to say no because it just might not sound safe enough or give us enough time to put in safety measures like barriers. Or but if somebody says in six months time, you want to display it in a local museum, and we're going to do this to keep it safe. You know, that's the sort of thing that might be a really good display option. Lift that. Just so you get paid [00:08:30] so much. Yeah, just gonna wrap it. Um, we we prefer not to fold it as many times as this has been, but it's the only way to get it down there. And then we'll unroll it when we take it into one team, just wrapping it like a present. Now they're going a conservation team. We have an off-site building as well at the top [00:09:00] of Tory Street. It's going up there to be assessed by them when they come out of quarantine. And then we're all getting together to work out the best way of storing them. Hello, Look at that. Where is that? How often do you find in your work when the objects become more than objects? Is it a rare thing or quite a common thing for you guys? Well, for all of us, we got into museum work because it's a passion. But curators look at it in terms of its [00:09:30] significance straight away. Whether it's suitable for the collection or not. Conservators have to look at them as objects, but it's impossible to not see its context. You can just concentrate on this as a piece of cotton, but, well, you can't do that when you've been to the ceremony and I. I don't think we'd be very good museum professionals if we just saw them as an object. And when you're providing access, you see the families, you see their response, that's what. Well, that's the part that I like the most [00:10:00] is the access for me. There is something amazing about the touch, feel and smell of objects, which is a very I always think it's a privilege. So sometimes a lot of my work is electronic. I might just see photos over the Internet, and then I might buy it over the phone at auction, never actually touch or see it or smell it. Not that smell is something that I should really talk about, but things do. They hit all five, senses the real thing, and people see them online and they want to come in and see the real thing. And their response is, [00:10:30] you know, amazing to watch as well, especially if it's their families seeing their great grandmother's wedding dress, that kind of thing. Um, there's no comparison to seeing it in person. I think we're nearly done so, Michael, how does it feel seeing these wrapped up ready to go to the top? Well, it's actually a relief because, um, you know, well, it's been a privilege and a joy to be involved [00:11:00] for so long. Um, sadly, as various committee members have retired or moved away, um, a lot of it has been left to me. Um, and, uh, now that they're going and they're going to be kept preciously, it'll be really great still things to do. Still a website to keep going and developing. But, uh, with the courts themselves gone, it'll be, uh, so much easier [00:11:30] to do what has to be done. And the reality is, too, that, you know, there's been virtually no negativity whatsoever about the quilts. And the only question people have said is, Oh, will we still have any access to them? Well, I can say that in the last five years, I've only ever been asked once to see anything apart from their use for ceremonies. No one's ever asked to do [00:12:00] anything, so they can hardly complain that they they won't be seen anymore because it's not the idea. But anyway, the man wants to close the church, so the sooner we can let him close the church. I'm thrilled to have been part of it. It's a privilege. Thanks for my call.

IRN: 524
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/aids_memorial_quilt_gifting_ceremony_auckland.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003963
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089257
TITLE: Gifting ceremony, Auckland - NZ AIDS Memorial Quilt
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Aunty Wai Mason; Catherine Tizard; Claudia Orange; GALS (Gay and Lesbian Singers, Auckland); Michael Bancroft
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Aunty Wai Mason; Catherine Tizard; Claudia Orange; Digby Law; GALS (Gay and Lesbian Singers, Auckland); HIV / AIDS; Michael Bancroft; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; Sara Guthrie; St Matthew-in-the-City
DATE: 29 April 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: St Matthew-in-the-City, 132 Hobson Street, Auckland
CONTEXT: Audio and images from the gifting ceremony of the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt to Te Papa - the national museum of New Zealand. The service was photographed by Gareth Watkins - a selection of images can be viewed here.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: OK, Bye. Went out my way to drop me to Oh so much my and pick him up. Hey, [00:00:30] for more I know pretty much, would you? [00:01:00] Oh, my God. For one. Bye. Oh! Oh, for when have you answer Number? [00:01:30] Oh, my God. Now, now [00:02:00] Happened to Andrew? No, no. You? [00:02:30] Yeah, and that Nothing. [00:03:00] Yeah, might hear my So he turned around the [00:03:30] my own Yeah, for you [00:04:00] the the the papa, the father, the papa. Hi, [00:04:30] they they they they are not a you Then I with the man I hated. [00:05:00] I am a alchemy. Oh, very warm greeting to you all and a special thanks to our and to the group from the AIDS Foundation [00:05:30] who have privileged us this afternoon by welcoming these two quilt blocks into this ceremony. Yeah, as you would appreciate, it's just impossible to bring all 16 quilts into this space. So these two have been brought to symbolise [00:06:00] all of them. For those who have had the misfortune of not knowing me, I'm Michael Bancroft, the current guardian of the AIDS. Firstly, I acknowledge this sacred place after about Saint Matthew in the city, which for this brief time becomes our our [00:06:30] I greet our sisters. Those who have gathered in this place for over 100 years are dead and especially those that the quilts commemorate. I think about I high, high, high. [00:07:00] I greet each one of you who has taken the time to come here this afternoon. Mothers and friends, partners, family members, members of the public. I greet those who, at different times during the last 24 years [00:07:30] have been part of the gathering, the forming, the sewing and the lead of the quilt project coordinators, conveners, guardians and committee members and decorators and panel makers. I greet Dame, our patron, who has been with us since [00:08:00] those very beginnings and for the inspiration that she has given from her personal involvement. Very significantly significantly, though, I agree those from the New Zealand Museum, Te Papa Dave and Claudia Orange, [00:08:30] a collections and research group director. I welcome you and thank you for coming to us today. Sara Guthrie, the collection manager for history. I agree, and Stephanie Gibson, the curator of history with whom myself and others have had a very special time in the last year, [00:09:00] bringing this moment to fruition without the decision that two people have made. Without your encouragement, we wouldn't be here at this moment. As I look around the gathering, there are many who have had a long association [00:09:30] with the quilts, and I just want to for a moment, possibly unfairly great. Be jealous whose son is commemorated in one of these pals. They fought way back in [00:10:00] the late eighties for greater dignity for the care of the dying and those who had died in the way they were not treated by funeral directors. So it's a special privilege for us that Biev is able to be with us today. Thank you, Biev seated near there, and Jean Stewart, [00:10:30] both of whom have been convenor of the quilt project in those very, very early years. I'm in the early nineties. It's great to have you with us this day. I would like to share with you just a small number of apologies of significant people who just couldn't be here today. Sean Robinson, [00:11:00] executive director of the AIDS Foundation, Now Mr Campbell, the chairperson of the AIDS Foundation Trust Board, the quilt treasurer, the Reverend Tony Franklin, who is now ministering in Napier. Kevin Jensen, who put together our great website. He's in Dennis Moran, who for many years [00:11:30] was responsible as coordinator for taking these groups all over the country. He now lives in Brisbane, Charles shall Kevin Hague and Grant Robinson said their apologies from parliament and I apologise that I have not met Jan Loy, who I believe was coming. Someone smiling at me. Greetings, Chan from the Green Party. Thank you for [00:12:00] being here. Karen Ritchie from the Bereavement Trust who has been tremendous in support of our work war. Warren Butler, one of the very earliest quilt convenors who was out of town this weekend and most recently, Rachel, the Missouri of the AIDS Foundation, who was called to England a few days ago [00:12:30] as her father is seriously ill, there will be others, but at this moment I just like welcoming you to just invite you to take a moment of silence to remember those we remember today through these quilts and that will lead us into dare I say my [00:13:00] sung for us by our gay and lesbian singers who have honoured this day and honoured many people in this place. [00:13:30] [00:14:00] [00:14:30] [00:15:00] [00:15:30] [00:16:00] [00:16:30] One of the great things about a ceremony like this is remembering, because that is what the quilts are about. Remembering and honouring people who, in a particular period of history, have been taken through HIV and AIDS related causes. And while [00:17:00] the quilt has always been prepared and cared for and administered separately, I need to acknowledge the fact that the AIDS Foundation has, over all the 24 years, being very, very supportive. And so I'm pleased that we were unable to ask the first director, Warren Lindberg, to [00:17:30] help carry a quilon today because he was there at the start. And seeing Doctor Rob Alice Pegler reminds me of all the doctors and nurses and staff in Ward nine. C as we used to know it, who cared for the scores of people way back in the late eighties and early nineties reminds us again of people who have been involved. [00:18:00] I'm not about to now give you the total history of the quilt because they're not here all day, and I think most of you are. They had a couple of people in 1985 in San Francisco, hit on the idea of a memorial and created the first ever quilt, and it didn't take very long for the idea [00:18:30] to come to New Zealand. I believe through Dan Fielding, who created a panel in the name of Peter, a good friend who had died in Wellington back of 1988 and over time families and friends many present with us today created these [00:19:00] panels, which were made into blocks and the two blocks we see here today in 1991 Darren Moore, who was then the convenor he passed away in 1993 held or gathered the first ever unfolding, as we did at the start of the service in the Auckland City Art Gallery, and Daniel was present at that gathering, [00:19:30] and so that we also is a long one. Eventually, the quilt here grew to 16 blocks and a small number of panels that have never been joined together. For practical reasons, which we have here today, I'm told that the American quilt, if it was all laid out [00:20:00] in one place and you walked past a block and paused for one minute, it would take 33 days to pass the American quilt. It's not insignificant that in March the Australian quilt was gifted to [00:20:30] the a the powerhouse museum in Sydney, 120 blocks. The reality is folks, that the preservation and care of the quilts throughout the world has become a massive and difficult task. The passage of time has meant some deterioration. But when we look at some [00:21:00] of these quilts today, as you will have an opportunity, it's amazing that in 20 years most of them have lasted pretty well. And many of you have seen them lying on the grass at Coyle Park, in school halls where Children have run across them without realising what they were doing, brought sacredly onto marae been displayed in Parliament. All [00:21:30] so many places, and many of you probably have lost count of the number of times that you have been in this church for funerals and AIDS candlelight memorial ceremonies. So it was timely that we do something about the future. In 2008. Rachel and a [00:22:00] encouraged by Andrew White side many of you know and myself started a process of talking to. In the meantime, we had to do something practically speaking, for the day when we would hand them over, and Kevin Jensen, whom I've already mentioned [00:22:30] started a website and if you haven't already seen it, go to the website sometime and see what he has done. It's a marvellous record. And alongside Kevin, we have in the last two years been privileged to have. I've called him a nationally renowned photographer, Gareth Watkins, and his partner, Roger, who have [00:23:00] photographed every single block, every quilt and lots of material so that it could be placed in the website and kept for posterity. So in mentioning them, I thank them on your behalf because without the work of Kevin and Gareth in particular, we couldn't really hand over the Quins. We'd be giving everything away. [00:23:30] Last year I met with Stephanie Gibson, and I gave her, and others gathered on that day a little bit of a surprise. I walked into into with a suitcase. They escorted me into a room and I the suitcase and pulled out a quilt, [00:24:00] and I can see the shock on their faces, and I'll never forget either Stephanie or one of the other creators words, Michael. They will never be touched by human hand again. Once we get because in the hand in the Mo as our Tonga, our treasure. They do become even more sacred than they are already, and they will be cared for and treated [00:24:30] with huge respect. And Stephanie, your words on that day almost inaccurate. I think it would be an honour and a privilege for us to house the church harbour for future generations. That Dame Claudia, I must say she is very quick to add, but we'll have to get the other directors to agree first. Well, we wouldn't be here right now [00:25:00] if that hadn't been the case for most of the years of the quilt. They have been for practical purposes kept here in Auckland. But I don't want this ceremony to end without us remembering that the quilts are the New Zealand quilt and there are pedals from all parts of New Zealand. I run a risk [00:25:30] of leaving out a place, but immediately glancing around Northland, Auckland, Waikato, Taranaki, Wellington, Christchurch and Dunedin are some of the places people have come from literally the whole country. The journey of the quilts is about to be made, but in going forward we remember little [00:26:00] things from our past. Some of you here today are old enough to remember them some of you remember Brett Shepherd and Alfie, who used to hold fundraisers to charge people to go into a nightclub for the quilts. I don't think you can do that these days. The old staircase, the [00:26:30] out empire, as we used to call it the old and man to man, which we know is Express magazine now. And Jay Bennie Jay, Thank you, because Jane has often stirred me along about these things and kept us mindful of it. And in the present day KMZ dot com and at the risk [00:27:00] are being told off. I am going to say that most of the venues now don't have that same attitude of having special fundraisers for things like cooks. But I can signal out urge Bar to continue to give me personal support and work towards funding from time to time. [00:27:30] And there's one other person closing my remarks here that I'd like to thank Kay Brock. Who's she? Well, most of the last 10 years, these quilts are being stored at national mini storage, and I become familiar enough to be called how might as I come and go from the place, [00:28:00] but we have known and I have known that the quilts are being cared for because that building is looked after. Thank you for honouring the group today, Cathy, by being present and to your staff, who can help you look after it. So where does this take us? It takes us from here back into two suitcases. [00:28:30] As these two blocks will be taken by our representatives with us today and next Thursday morning, there is to be a formal ceremony on the marae at the Museum of New Zealand where we will officially have the whole pool over and it will be officially received. [00:29:00] Be good. And I'm delighted that one of the very first convenors called is able to be present with me when we do that. And some of our friends in Wellington are going to gather with us from the foundation and other places to hand those over. So it [00:29:30] becomes my privilege on behalf of all of you to officially say to you that we are gifting the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt to the Museum of New Zealand to to through this ceremony of farewell and handing over. And [00:30:00] I would like to invite Nicky and Jean Stewart to come forward, please. It's two of the earliest people from the quilt front here. You'll see a very simple and then there is the paperwork and I invite Dame Claudia, [00:30:30] Sara and Stephanie to come forward that they may presents you with our handing over documents. The I now call upon [00:31:00] David Claudia to address us and thank you, Michael. It's an honour to be here today, it goes without saying, but I will say that it is significant for all of us here and for so many others. But the event certainly marks [00:31:30] the gifting to us at, and therefore to all of us in the nation of a nationally significant connection and archive. As I sat in the front there and have been able to look at just the 1 ft in front, I realised that each kernel is such a unique and a moving piece of social history, of the devastating impact [00:32:00] of HIV and AIDS in New Zealand. It's an honour for te papa to take care of the quilt and the spiritual and the emotional connections of that. We know that the quilt has with families with partners and with friends, and we assure you that we will continue [00:32:30] your care of the quilt and also ensure that it's accessible for the loved ones and the visitors that will come to see it in the years to come. I know that since around 1988 as Michael said, the quilt has been seen for many years in many diverse places such as churches, school halls and civic squares. [00:33:00] Well, from now on, it will be stored and cared for to the very best of our abilities and also made available wherever is possible. There's no doubt looking at the the quilts, too. Two, especially that are here today. They have a message of remembrance and of hope, and Papa will honour that. And we also will [00:33:30] have the ability to disseminate those messages through our collections online and our public programmes in the future, and just a little explanation of what I mean by collections online. That's our record. It's a very large electronic database of every object of some 2 to 3 million objects in each of those, [00:34:00] um, entries on the database. There's a great deal of information about the objects, and so through connections online, we would have the opportunity both there and in other ways at to make sure that the significance of the quilt and the message that they contain and many messages indeed they contain of [00:34:30] love, grief, of pain, of remembrance All those messages will be captured and will be able to be accessed there for New Zealanders. For you. For others that will follow us. And indeed, of course, those messages will go out to the world on behalf of I do want to thank all of you and those who've worked with us to make this gift possible. Particularly [00:35:00] Michael to you and and my special Thanks our special. Thanks to you for your tireless efforts. It remains therefore, for me to simply say we accept this. It is an honour to accept it. We're proud to be the the guardian of this important national. Thank you, Michael. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, [00:35:30] David Claudia, Thank you for your words. And I'm sure you'll be relieved to know that while there will be a short pause of a few minutes of the song that gals will sing will be your We won't ask you three to come and sing [00:36:00] before we do enter into the last part of our time together. I would like to just make an apology to you. It's in the nature of myself and many at gatherings like this, that you have some hospitality at the end of the of the gathering. This church is well known for its hospitality. Well, there was due to be a concert starting at 3 30. That's why we were told to be out [00:36:30] of here by three. And at two o'clock on Friday afternoon, the can The concert was cancelled, but it didn't leave me or anyone else. Time to arrange hospitality. Sorry about that. Don't go to Sky City anyway. That's your choice. In a few moments, I'd like you to take, you know, if it takes us 5 to 10. So it's no problem to just go for a walk around the [00:37:00] church and look at the quilts and panels that we do have here to take in something of them. Because while we are going to retain the individual panels here for times when people say, could we have a little bit of a quilt to display at a candlelight memorial or some other service? Uh, generally, they won't be as accessible as they might have otherwise been. So take that time and the gals will sing the song. [00:37:30] You are the light while we're doing that. And, um, we'll we'll just take that time. And then when we come together again, those people who brought the quilts forward will fold them back, and then we will symbolically walk them to the back. In a sense, we're handing them over, then to be taken to Wellington. And, um, we will end the ceremony, uh, with the singing of our [00:38:00] national song, and Stephen will blast us out of the church with an organ piece. Not literally, but I thank you again for taking the time to be with us this afternoon. Um, we will have just a little bit more formality, So it'd be good if you are able to stay till we actually finish the ceremony. So, um, time now, just to walk around to look and [00:38:30] just to take him the beauty of the quilts. And I just want to say, as David mentioned, just looking at one. I've conducted a number of the funerals of people who are paddled here, and there's one panel here where the family forbid me to make any mention of aids at the funeral to make sure no one wore red ribbons [00:39:00] to give it away. It was to be completely no mention three months later, that family without our knowledge and put together a quilt panel with their son's name and blazing all over it. They weren't ready at the time of his death. But ever since, they have acknowledged through a quilt. [00:39:30] Thank you. Take the time. [00:40:00] [00:40:30] A [00:41:00] No, [00:41:30] [00:42:00] [00:42:30] [00:43:00] [00:43:30] [00:44:00] he Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen. There will be an opportunity for you to just, uh, take time at the end of the service. It's my privilege. Now you can call upon David. We'd like to just share a few [00:44:30] of her reflections with you. Thank you. I don't know that I have much to add to what has already been so eloquently said, But could I just before I say anything, ask you to pay a school tribute to the lovely singing we've heard [00:45:00] so often feel that because we're in church shouldn't applaud. And I'm never quite sure why that is. I'm sure if there's a god, he would be cross, but, uh so thank you very much. That was really beautiful. I first became personally aware of what we now know as the A. I DS epidemic through a neighbour and a friend who, [00:45:30] Uh, I came back from a trip and my daughter, Judith said to me, Digby is in hospital and I said, What's the matter with him? She said, I don't know. So I said, Well, I better go and find out, haven't I? So I went to visit him, and I just said, What's the matter? Did we? And he just said to me, I've got AIDS and I don't know what to say, because at that stage it wasn't something that was It was something [00:46:00] that sort of happened elsewhere. It wasn't our problem at that stage, but, uh, Digby Law was a fine cook, a writer of recipe books, my next door neighbour and a good friend, and that woke me up to the bitter, bitter grief that AIDS brings with it. I was delighted to be able to [00:46:30] lend my name to this pro at an earlier stage of my life before I became an old age pensioner of and, uh, I'm delighted to be here today to thank te Papa and its wonderful representatives, uh, for doing the AIDS quilt, approaching the honour of acknowledging that this these [00:47:00] quilts are treasures and are to become part of New Zealand's heritage. Thank you very much indeed. Um, there's so much one could say that so much doesn't need to be said today. I just ask you to look at the very tiny words at the front of your programme. Remember, their names cherish their memories, [00:47:30] celebrate their lives. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you again. Just one little commercial before we close. We do need to keep the work of the quilt going [00:48:00] in this part of the world. We still have storage bills to pay and other things. So if you are able to make a little contribution in the bowl at the entrance, that would be appreciated. And Dubai in Morocco are going to to the and wait. And while they are doing that, those [00:48:30] who unfold with the quilts will refold and we will symbolically give them to our representatives. And then we will close our time together and see We don't have to be out of here five minutes time. Don't rush. Thank you again. I'll give you a [00:49:00] call you? [00:49:30] Yeah, and mhm [00:50:00] to [00:50:30] [00:51:00] oh can enjoy. [00:51:30] And when my when my culture to [00:52:00] Hey, [00:52:30] after the orange to my farm Hi. You come back to tonight. Um, [00:53:00] [00:53:30] [00:54:00] [00:54:30] [00:55:00] those [00:55:30] that Hi. Hi. Hi [00:56:00] to me, are you?

IRN: 544
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/gay_and_lesbian_singers.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003962
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089256
TITLE: GALS - Gay and Lesbian Singers
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ashley Barratt; Catherine Lee
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Ashley Barratt; Auckland; Catherine Lee; GALS (Gay and Lesbian Singers, Auckland); Michael Parmenter; arts; choirs; music; organisation; performance
DATE: 29 April 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Catherine Lee and Ashley Barratt talk about New Zealand's first LGBTI choir.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Girls. Um, the gay and lesbian singers started 20 years ago. It's our 20th anniversary this year and started really as a as an event or or as a as a, um, group of people which got together to actually support Michael Peretti in his, um uh, pride event. Um, II. I think it's grown from that, um into into a group of people really, who are are celebrating gay and lesbian people and, uh, in Auckland and also, [00:00:30] um, I guess in new in New Zealand and internationally too. So Michael's event back in 1992 what was that? Part of that was the hero, a performance that he choreographed and designed and everything. And, um, the choir sang some songs as part of that. Had there ever been like a gay and lesbian choir in New Zealand before that point? Not that we're aware of. No. And for a long time, we were the only gay and lesbian choir in in in New Zealand, right until last [00:01:00] year or last year. Are there still members in the choir that sang in the original thing with Michael? There are There are two or three, so they're pretty still what members And, um, you know, it's it's good to have people who've been travelling the journey with us for the whole time. Um, you know, certainly. They're somewhat vocal in terms of actually trying to direct the choir now, so it's fantastic. So I think, you know, um, my role as a chairman really is to is to steer girls forward for the [00:01:30] next 20 years. And, um, you know, we've been thinking about renewal and relevance in terms of that. So, um, us, Um, being able to engage in an audience for the next 20 years is something which is really important to me. And when I took over the role, um, three months or so ago from Kerry Stevens, Um, you know, it really was a challenge that carry carry put to the choir around, you know, being relevant and and and thinking about what we're trying to do into the future. How did you both get involved? [00:02:00] Uh, a friend of mine was part of the choir that I joined about 13 years ago, and she knew that I liked singing. Um, even though I wasn't involved in any musical activity at the time, and she said, Why don't you come along? So I came to one of their performances at Elah Cafe and thought, Yeah, I can do this. So I don't read music, But the choir is really welcoming for people of all ages and all abilities, So Yeah, [00:02:30] and I, um I first, um, got to know girls as part of the, um, the gay Games in Cologne in 2010. And, um, they were the only choir who had made the journey to Europe from, um, Down Under and were really well received. And, um, just really got to, um, to to appreciate just what what you can do for for an organisation of, of of, you know, essentially volunteers and, um came back and and decided [00:03:00] I'd put my hat into the ring. Has that been a big thing for girls in terms of, um, going out to events like the gay games in Cologne? Is that has that been right the way through the history of of the girls? Yes. Um, they went to Amsterdam. I'm not sure what year that was. That was before I joined. And, um, went to the gay games in Sydney or Yeah, and the out games as well, because of the split and so on. Certainly been involved in quite [00:03:30] a few international events like that and not the whole choir. And in some cases, in some cases, the whole choir went. In some cases, it was small groups of people from the choir who represented the choir internationally. So when you saw them perform in Cologne, what What did you think? I just felt that that it was a very professional, Um, a very professional event, um, put together the very thought thoughtfully. And, um, some of [00:04:00] the songs were uniquely New Zealand songs. So it was just, I suppose, a a AAA way of actually feeling at home away, away from home. Um, so that probably works on a number of levels, you know, in in a group of of, of people who are gay and lesbian and celebrating gay and lesbian life and culture and sport. You know, it's fantastic to be part of that. So with the repertoire, is there much, uh, New Zealand content? What? How how does that work? We have a very good relationship with, [00:04:30] um, David Hamilton, who's a New Zealand composer, and he We have asked him to, um, put some music together for some words that we wanted or he has chosen a poem and then put it to music for us. Um, we also have sung a lot of Maori songs, and we worked with several times [00:05:00] and she wrote a song for us, which we performed several times. So we do try and sing quite a lot of quite a lot of New Zealand music. And I think you know, one of the things for me that that that reinforces that, um, going back to the, um the, um out games in Cologne a couple of years ago in the fact that you know, the the the the songs that were, um, uniquely Maori or uniquely um, you know, I think they really [00:05:30] did resonate with the with the international audience. And And I think, you know, you know, underpins the fact that, you know, we are a very unique culture down down in New Zealand. And perhaps sometimes we forget about that in terms of, um uh, us being a gay and lesbian, you know, choir in as part of a very unique culture in in on an in an international sense. Yeah, it's also, I think, quite significant that you're commissioning people to write music or set music to words. [00:06:00] And do you see that? It's quite an important thing that actually you're actually creating, um, material around like either events or whatever. I mean, you you're actually creating stuff? Absolutely, Absolutely. Yes. And, um, we're hoping to do the same for our 20th anniversary as well. Create a new piece of music and it goes out in the world as, um being commit, having been commissioned by girls. Yeah, I have to say, you know, personally for me when I opened [00:06:30] David's, um, work and, um and we, we we we sing that, you know, he's he's, uh, commissioned or we've commissioned and he's composed a piece of work for us for our next concert. When you read at the at the top of that, there's a There's a dedication to to to us as as as a group of people that that, you know, does make me feel very proud and and you know, I. I feel very special around that, and, you know, that's probably a little bit of history, isn't it really that that you know, will will be, um, will be [00:07:00] there and and and available for others in the future. So if I was starting out as a new bee and wanted to come into the choir What? What? What would the process be? How would I go about that? Um, you'd contact our, um, membership person, and they would invite you to a rehearsal, and you'd be paired up with a buddy. And, um, you'd you'd have a voice test to see whether which of the four parts you your voice sits in and where you'd be most comfortable singing. [00:07:30] And some people preferred us to come along and listen to a rehearsal and, um, rather than launch in straight away. And we're happy with that. And also, some people, like I did come to a performance before actually, um, coming to a rehearsal for somebody that's never sung before. Like, how did you feel kind of going into that environment? Yeah, I felt really comfortable. And I suppose you know, there's always an element of, um Well, you know how How will how will this, um, turn out? But I think [00:08:00] you know, gas is such a supportive organisation. And a great bunch of people that that, you know, I didn't feel particularly, um, particularly concerned about that. So I think anybody who's got an interest in in singing or, um, you know, performance, um should, um, should come along and try us out. I find it really uplifting. I really enjoy Tuesday night rehearsals in particular. Um, I do sometimes find it a bit hard to get to sleep that night because I'm so buoyed up. Yeah, it's it's really uplifting. [00:08:30] I find, I guess because I love singing. And, um, I'm not a solo performer, so I really enjoy singing with others and I. I also find that, you know, the the combination of the different voices, the four voices working together. Um and, um, you know, we're often over 40 people. Um, you know, you can make an incredible sound with with that many people really quite powerful. So the makeup of say that that [00:09:00] group of 40 can, uh, can you describe the kind of people that are coming along and singing? We have a various, um, age ranges from, um probably from about, um, early twenties. Through to, um to our oldest, um member who would be, you know, close to close to 80. So, you know, it's, um it's a it's a wide range of ages. And, um yeah, but I think the common thread for me is is that everybody's always [00:09:30] very interested about supporting other people who are coming along. Yeah, and certainly as an executive, we we we do take that very seriously about making sure that people feel supported because, you know, to to some extent, you know, people join the choir not only because of the singing, but they also want it as an affirmation of them and their sexuality. Um, which they can obviously get from being part of girls that they can't get from being part of another choir. Um, and there are a large number of of choirs in [00:10:00] Auckland. So we, um we we certainly know that there's a lot of competition for people out there. So is gals open to straight people? Yes, we We have a couple of straight people at the moment, and we have had throughout the girls history, and, um, I'm not sure why people choose to come along, but we you know, we support them and and they are part of the social group just as much as everybody else. Yeah, so, as a newbie going to the first rehearsal. If I can't read music, [00:10:30] how does how does that work when you're trying to learn new new material? II. I think it does take a little bit of time to actually, you know, get up to speed. I think reflecting on my journey. It probably took me a couple of weeks to actually feel confident to actually sing out. Um, but, uh, you always feel the power of those people around you in terms of actually guiding you and and finding your voice amongst a group of people who are who are, um, put put together. [00:11:00] Um, I think it's a really supportive, um, environment. Um, and very quickly, I think, then you get to the point of being able to read music well enough to actually participate as part of a group. You know, it probably takes, you know, um, two or three weeks to actually understand, you know, the basics and, um, and, you know, build build from that point. Yeah. And, um, another thing is, in the past, we've, um What we [00:11:30] found is that the choir is really good at at schmaltzy and show kind of tunes. And for example, even though it may not be overtly queer A gay and lesbian choir singing If I loved you, which is just so full of longing and desire and so on, um can be read as a gay song by the audience. Yeah. What are some other examples of songs that you would class as gay and lesbian? Um, sometimes we do change [00:12:00] the lyrics. And, um, there's a song that the men, uh, the men sang, for example, I feel pretty, um, we do sing some overtly gay and lesbian repertoire. Um, email me. Your queer love is one that we're saying from an American composer. We we're quite adept at changing the words to actually reflect them, You know, our interpretation of them, But, um but, yeah, part of part of being [00:12:30] who we are is is actually is actually celebrating the music in the context of of, of a group of gay and lesbian people. It's an interesting idea, isn't it? About how far you kind of push the the the kind of gay lesbian side of things, you know, whether it's actually in the music or whether it's just because it's a group of gay and lesbian people performing and there is a tension there. Um, some members want it to be a lot more. So again, there's been oriented in terms of the repertoire. [00:13:00] Um, and some members, you know, their elderly parents attend and they don't necessarily feel so comfortable with that. I guess it also influences you in terms of what kind of concerts you do and where you do those, um, we started out fairly early on performing at places like the Auckland College of Education, as it was then called in their one of their music rooms. Um, more lately, we've been performing at [00:13:30] Auckland Grammar, which is kind of ironic. Um, they don't have, For example, they don't have a student gay group in that school. Um, we've also performed in Grey Community Centre, Freemans Bay Community Centre, the town hall. We had a major performance there for out in loud, which was a festival that we held for Australasian Gay and Lesbian Choir. And I think, um, if we look back over the last [00:14:00] 20 years, we, um, as part of our sort of community choir focus. We've actually also sang at, um, community events and civil unions and and and things like that and I, I think you certainly, um, as we look to the future, my, my, my desire and belief is that we'll perhaps get back to doing more of that work as well. So to be, you know, out in the community. And and actually that that part of the community choir point as well as the other big concerts that we actually [00:14:30] do and, um, II, I know. Certainly, um, Steven, the musical director, is very keen that we actually, um, step up as a choir and and do more. Um, the the I guess the question is, Well, you know, what do we do and what don't we do? Because, um, because there's a there's there's a lot of, um, there's a lot of things we could do. We just need to choose to do it. Have you ever surveyed your kind of, uh, singers and actually asked why they came to the choir? [00:15:00] Yeah, I think that would be an interesting reflection. I mean, my view would be that some some people come because they sense a community and and and feel want to be part of something special. And I think, you know, we do reflect on the fact that that that because we're non auditioned, you know, we do have to be very mindful of the fact that that people join girls for for a number of reasons, one of which may be that they want to create beautiful music. But the actual, um, the actual part of being part of something special because, you know, it's a it's [00:15:30] a community and we speak to community and we're part of the community. I think it's also very important. Yeah, but we should definitely do that. Catherine, we should try and do that in our 20th year. You mentioned schools before, and I'm wondering, how easy is it to get kind of younger people involved in something like this? That's something we've been pondering, actually, because it hasn't been easy. Um, we are attempting to link up with Rainbow youth. You know, when we look forward, 20 [00:16:00] years and what girls will be in 20 years? Um, you know, my personal view is that we do need to get better connected with youth and and, um thinking about? Well, what would engage and and and and make? Um, you know, the more youthful members of the community actually feel part of girls. My sense around that is is that, um Gen Y are often very, um, cause focused. And so perhaps there's an element of actually thinking about. Well, how could we make girls a more cause focused [00:16:30] organisation as opposed to just an organisation? Um, like, what would be an example? Well, I think maybe that speaks back to the the the the genesis of Of of girls, You know, 20 years ago about being part of, you know, very, um, significant events or or being part of things which are clearly, um, stamped around around, you know, celebrating gay and lesbian queer life. And and, you know, um, maybe we need to think more about that because, um, because I think [00:17:00] that might be one way of actually, um, you know, better engaging to to to to, um, to more youthful, um, people, you know, certainly from from my perspective, II, I would love to, um, to to to have the the journey for girls be about reducing the, um reducing the the the age profile and and and being more connected to, um to youth, Um, particularly in, you know, Auckland and definitely in New Zealand. Um, certainly. I mean, [00:17:30] uh, the next concert that we're singing in June, we're actually singing for, um, uh, gay and Lesbian Auckland and the communities, the the the the the community groups that are out there. Um and it's been quite an interesting, um, revelation for me personally when we we look at, um, some of the organisations and and and see that, in fact, you know, those organisations that were alive 20 years ago are perhaps not as active. Um, Now, um so certainly, you know, our concert in June. We really need we really want to. [00:18:00] And we really need to celebrate all of the other groups that that are around in Auckland. Um, so that's why we're calling it out in the city. And, um and, um, you know, we really want to celebrate that fact. Also, I think that a lot of people would still be members of gas if we didn't actually do performances. I think it is really important to do performances because you're always working towards something and, um that you have a goal and and [00:18:30] you are seeking to improve your sound and and performance and so on. But I think there are a lot of people who still would, if we didn't perform, would still really enjoy the singing and the social side of it. I think for me, it's, um it's It's a combination of actually hearing the sound and feeling part of really something special. So I know I can say that both from being an audience member, looking at girls and and and hearing and seeing them, Um, you know, I, [00:19:00] I, um I I get a kick actually about showing my mother who actually is in England, you know, the the the the clips, the video clips which are on YouTube, which we post and and and hear her feedback around that, um, I guess it makes me feel proud. And And and you know that that that, um, I can do something which makes gives other people pleasure. So I think that, for me is is the you know, the key thing. Yeah, I As I said before, I really enjoy the singing and [00:19:30] the as Ashley said, the com combination of the voices and sometimes during rehearsal when, um, a certain part is asked to repeat something or do some learn something and I'm in the In The Sopranos and I think, oh, they're singing that How amazing, you know, And then when it all comes together, it just sounds so great you mentioned before about the, uh, out and Loud [00:20:00] Music Festival. Can you tell me what? What was that? And and and what was your part in it? It started as from my understanding from, um, an Australasian connection that was made a few years ago. And there was one. There was a festival held in Sydney, and then and there was one held in Melbourne. And, um, gas was asked to also be [00:20:30] the organisers and have one in Auckland. And so choirs from Cairns, Perth, all the Australian Australasian choirs and, um the Yeah, So G actually organised that festival, and it was over the weekend, had workshops that was held at a UT. And then we had a major performance in the town hall. So I mean, I think you know, um, for me, that speaks to the fact that we [00:21:00] we we are part of an Australasian community of, Of, of gay and lesbian choirs. And you know, certainly when we look across the other side of the Tasman, we We see, um, people like, um, Sydney. Um, again, there's been choir and and And, you know, perhaps that gives us inspiration in terms of the fact that that we're, you know, 40 to 50 people there up at the 200 level people. And and, you know, you can do a huge amount more when you've got 200 people than you can with 50. I mean, we we're probably at [00:21:30] the largest size we've ever been as a choir in our 20th year. Um, so to me, that speaks to the fact that we must be doing something right. And if we look across the other side of the Tasman, we can we can see people, perhaps who we can aspire to in in the future? Certainly. Um, Stephen, the musical director is, um is of the view that that you know, if we can If we can move and and and and have girls be doing, uh, work in the intensity that that SGLC are doing, then you know, we really will have achieved something fantastically special. [00:22:00] What was it like singing in that kind of mass environment when you've got the town hall? Pretty much full. Pretty scary. But it was marvellous. Um, and also, that was maybe the second or third time that the refurbished organ was used and we had a piece that was composed specifically for that. And, um, that was just wonderful. And, um, we also had Karen grills a guest conductor who you know that the level of professionalism for the mass [00:22:30] choirs was just amazing. Do you think there's a difference between being part of a gay and lesbian choir and being part of just a straight choir? I don't know. A few of us went down to one year to a coral festival for a whole lot of choirs throughout New Zealand. And we were, um, you know, we really enjoyed being sort of within a whole lot of other choirs. Some [00:23:00] of them were a bit sort of taken aback at us. Um, you know, this was a few years ago. Um, but most of them were pretty welcoming when you say Well, just hadn't maybe hadn't come across gay and lesbian people. before. Perhaps. Yeah, I think I think, um, my sense would be, um that we're a little bit more fun and a little bit more. Um, [00:23:30] III, I think a little bit more welcoming, perhaps than II I would imagine most most, um, most straight choirs would be. I mean, we we are really thoughtful about about welcoming anybody who comes along and and, you know, I guess as an executive, we we reflect on the fact that that people may want to join girls, not because just the fact that they want to sing but because they want to be part of something and identify has been, you know, part of something, um, in the gay and lesbian community. [00:24:00] And and so we really work hard to support people who, um, you know, are excited and committed and and and want to learn, um, and and are starting perhaps in their in their singing journey. And I guess when we say, like, gay and lesbian, we probably should be saying queer, because transgender and intersex and any other, um, sexuality are also part of the choir as well. Which kind of leads on to the the the the kind of final [00:24:30] kind of questions in terms of like, where is the choir going? And I guess in terms of even like, terminology, is there discussion within the choir about, you know, kind of like going from, like gals to not sure what the acronym would be. But, um, some people felt a bit uncomfortable at calling, um, the next concert, Um, or having the word queer and as part of the subtitle, Um and, um, I noticed, [00:25:00] when I put it in, put an ad for it in the lesbian newsletter. They actually changed it to DL BT I And the first time they put it in, they didn't the second time. We haven't actually talked recently about changing the name of girls. Some straight people do. Some We sang at a concert, um, as part of the A garden festival or something a few years ago. And some, um, people came up. Do the men mind [00:25:30] being called girls, you know, um, yeah, we haven't really thought recently about changing the name. Yeah, I. I mean, II, I think, um, it's an interesting question, Gareth and I think we we we we probably do need to think about Well, you know, um, the world of GL BT you know, is moving forward. And, you know, are we speaking to that world and and And how well connected are we speaking to that world? And I mean my sense, I guess, to build what Catherine [00:26:00] said is is that we've been doing a pretty good job. Um um, but you can always, um you can always do more, can't you? Yeah. I don't have any problem being called gals either. Catherine.

IRN: 521
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089504
TITLE: Phil Siegel - AIDS Memorial Quilt Conference (1995)
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VOICES: Phil Siegel
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1990s; AIDS Memorial Quilt; AIDS Memorial Quilt conference 1995; HIV / AIDS; NAMES Project; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; Phil Siegel; San Francisco; United States of America; media
DATE: 10 March 1995
YEAR: 1995
LOCATION: San Francisco, San Francisco, United States of America
CONTEXT: Phil Siegel from Media Works in San Francisco gives a keynote presentation on working with the media.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: We have Phil Siegel from Media Works here in San Francisco. He's been involved with the quilt since 1987 88 and he's going to, um, talk to us about media. So, Bill, what I'd like to do to start is just do a couple sample interviews as if you just walked into a television [00:00:30] studio and didn't know what the interviewer was going to ask. And what we'll do is at the end, after I give my thrillingly exciting lecture, we'll go back and review those tapes and see how we would have done them differently. Translators. Am I talking? Is that OK? Is that a good speed for your translators? Is that OK? Slow down even more. OK, I'll slow down even more. OK, [00:01:00] um we're gonna take pauses for the translators. But this is not how a real TV interview would look because TV interviewers aren't going to be as talk as slowly as me as I'll try Leslie. OK, we're here today with Leslie Barnes to talk about the names Project and Leslie. What is the names project? The Names Project is a collection of three by six panels sewn together to Memorialise [00:01:30] people who have died of AIDS. So you're saying that everybody that is on the panel or somebody whose name is on the panel has died of AIDS? Yes. How many people in Canada have died of AIDS? 11,000 people in Canada and we have panels for 1100 of those, um, Y aids. I'm not sure what you mean by that. How many cases of cancer do you have in Canada? About twice as many, and how many cases [00:02:00] of let's say, just say, lung cancer from smoking. Nobody smokes in Canada. So you're saying there's double? There's double the number of Canadians that have died of cancer. Double the number of people in Canada have died from cancer, and you're still putting this quilt together for people that have died from AIDS. Why don't you make a cancer [00:02:30] quilt instead? Well, because there are many people working in the area of cancer education and the people with whom I work, and my personal interest is in AIDS HIV. I don't believe why. Why only 11,000? What's the population of Canada? 29 million. So you got 29 million and you've got 11,000 cases of AIDS. Why would should we, as Canadians care to come out and say this [00:03:00] quilt? Because many of the people who are HIV infected and affected don't have the kind of support and are marginalised in a way that people with breast cancer, lung cancer, liver cancer are not? Do you have statistics to back that up? Is this your opinion as an advocate for AIDS? Is that your opinion that there's not support networks for for breast cancer? No, there are certainly support networks. What [00:03:30] I'm suggesting is that people who are infected and affected don't have the same kind of financial and family support. And yes, there is evidence to support that. There's not the financial support it. It's true that most people that get AIDS the majority in Canada, I'm assuming, are gay men. They have a much higher standard of living. So you're saying they're not financially supported? I don't believe that's true. No, I would say it's more emotional support and social support. [00:04:00] We'll be back in a little while with more interviews on HIV. Thank you. It. I love this, uh, after this. Daniel, it's your turn. Where's Daniel? Is he checking? Is he checking me out, huh? The focus is weird. [00:04:30] I promise we'll speak slower during the um huh Pauses instead of speaking slowly. OK, you're gonna have OK, you'll have an advantage here after I ask a question pause so they can do it and then I'll pause before you. OK, we're here with Daniel from Israel. And Israel is one of the first countries in the Middle East to host the names project. [00:05:00] What is the names? Project? The names. What is the names? Project Paz. The names project is an international organisation which helps to educate people around the world. It actually it has a number of different goals. One of them is to educate people about aids so that they can help to help them understand what aids is. What is the government of Israel doing to fight AIDS right now? Pause. Thank you. [00:05:30] What is the government of Israel doing just to fight AIDS right now? A. I is is one of the few issues which is being addressed by the Health Ministry in Israel. That's where um, AIDS needs to be addressed. And what are they doing? They're not doing very much. Then how are they addressing it? Um, sorry. Um, how is the government? There's very little funding, um, by the Ministry of Health for [00:06:00] testing for HIV testing. They're not giving any funds for education. No funds for people with AIDS or their families. No funds for counselling, no funds for medical services, no funds to educate the medical staff on how to deal with people with AIDS and and medical services which are needed. So how many cases of AIDS are there in Israel? That's a good question. Pause. Um, [00:06:30] how many cases of AIDS are there in Israel? To date, over 150 people have died from AIDS. The official statistics say that approximately 500 people are HIV positive, but we know that the number is greater than that over 2000. If you were running the country, what would you do to fight AIDS? I would create an education programme in the school system to [00:07:00] teach youth before they start sexual activity. On what aids is, what sexually transmitted diseases are and how to control. At what age would you teach these Children about having gay sex? I'm not an educator, so I'm not I can't answer that question. I would I personally, um, probably would start sex education. Um, AIDS is just part of the sexual education programme, and I would make sure that that's part of the, [00:07:30] um, complete package. But I would say it's important also to start AIDS education to young people in terms of compassion and et cetera. OK, we'll be back after these messages. Thank you very much. Right. Ok, um, [00:08:00] I'm prepared. Um, can you hear me or or is that Does this work? Ok, um I just gave you two examples. I just gave you two examples of, um, difficult situations. I've worked with the quilt for seven years. I do publicity for a living. I do trainings like this for a living. We we will try today to, [00:08:30] um give you the worst situations that you could be in and cross our fingers that when you leave here today, you'll be able to organise your thoughts and answer any question, no matter how difficult to answer the questions effectively and get your message out. Um, I gave two examples [00:09:00] of interviews here. The first one. Sorry Leslie was hostile. Um, the interviewer obviously knew nothing at all about the quilt and couldn't care less about the quilt. He me, I put her on the defensive and made her afraid of me so I could sound smarter. [00:09:30] Pause. That's good. Every time you want me to pause, just hold that up. And, um, the second interview wasn't a hostile interview. It was a terrible interview. Um, I'm gonna pick on you for a minute. Daniel, I'm sorry. Um, did you mention the quilt? I asked the question. Tell me about the names project. You never said the word quilt. One time, not once. When you look back at the tapes, [00:10:00] pause. When you look back at the tapes, you'll see me. The interviewer running the interview, I asked him about defence budgets. I asked him about funding about education. It's your job as the person being interviewed to make sure that you work in the messages that you want to say. [00:10:30] You following me here? Ok, um, what are those messages? OK, take off the shirt. Um, there are three things that you're going to want to say in an interview to call it a successful interview. Carlos, do you have the copy points? OK, when I asked Daniel about education. That's [00:11:00] a very good word, I said. He said something about in Israel. There's not the education perfect opportunity to say That's why we have brought the quilt to Israel to educate. And by the way, the quilt is Oh, are they all getting copies of it now? Let's wait. Let's wait. Let's wait, OK, you'll get you'll. You'll get a copy of these, um, in a few minutes at [00:11:30] the end, but three main points. One. The quilt is for education. Two. This is the one that we had trouble with a couple of years ago. It's a tool for HIV awareness. Now let's start again. The first one here, let me read it. From what it says here, the International AIDS Memorial Quilt Pause is the world's most visible symbol [00:12:00] of the enormity. Enormity the size of the AIDS epidemic. That's one what you want to remember. There is visible symbol, visible symbol. Two. It's an education tool. Just remember education tool, and this one the third copy point is going to be about your individual display. The quilt came to Malaysia to blah, blah blah, and we're here at the [00:12:30] Y of Buena Gardens from this date to that date. Um, so here they say the UN 50 display of the quilt serves as a reminder of the global devastation of AIDS and the need for international cooperation. That's long. Remember, it's about the display that you're going to be working on that day. So when we look back at these tapes later, I'll show you [00:13:00] opportunities, every place, every question that I asked. As difficult as they were, Um, could be answered by saying one of these three phrases. If I say, Tell me about AIDS in Canada, AIDS in Canada has 11 million people, which is an incredible number. That's why bringing the quilt here is a visible symbol is a visible symbol, huh? 11,000? That is as many [00:13:30] and we have brought. Then that's a good place to say for the third copy point, which is. That's why we have brought to Toronto today 300 panels, which is only one you know, 1/1000 of the number of cases in Canada. No matter what, my question is the best. The way that we are taught, I ask a question. You answer the question. This is the way human interaction goes I ask [00:14:00] you answer. That's not the way an interview goes. An interview is. I ask a question because I've got an agenda. You answer the question, however, you want to lead me to my next question. Because if I said Tell me about AIDS in Israel about numbers and blah blah blah in Israel and you answer about the quilt a good interviewer is going to say, Well, tell me about [00:14:30] the quilt. I'm not going to then say, Well, tell me about the Palestinian situation, you know? I mean, it would be stupid. I'd be a terrible interviewer. So what? The idea is, you answer a question to follow. Whatever my question is, your answer should be one of these three things or make a bridging statement. I'm still speaking too fast. Make a bridging statement to get you on to one of your copy points. Is the sky blue? [00:15:00] Yes, it's a beautiful day to display this display of the AIDS Memorial quilt you need to practise, and what I'd like to see you do is what I'd like to see you do throughout the weekend is role play. Ask each other difficult questions and try and answer them with one of the three visible symbol education or [00:15:30] the UN 50 display translators. Am I still am I speaking? OK? OK, you that I don't have translators. Are you speaking OK? Am I? I'm OK. Ok, Ok. Um, it's very difficult for me to do this now because I don't know how your media works in your country. I know here in the United States, it's a commercial enterprise. So the way [00:16:00] the best thing Daniel said was I asked him about education and he said, I'm not an educator, which is a great answer. But his next comment should have been. I'm not an educator. I am here to bring the quilt which is an education tool to the people of Israel. That's how he gets back on to his point. So the best way to prepare for any kind of an interview on TV on radio [00:16:30] on in the print is to know three statements that when that newspaper comes out, when they quote you, it will say one of those three quotes. It's a visible symbol. It is an education tool. It will be on display at Yerba Buena Gardens if that If that comes out in the newspaper, you've done a great job. OK, now that's the bad news. The good news [00:17:00] is, in all the years that I've been doing training for people with a quilt, we've never had more than two difficult interviews. And luckily, one was with Cleave and the other was was with Mike Smith. Everybody else. It's a really good you know, one of those kinds of stories where the media thinks this is really a great milk and for all that's got, you know, that kind of a thing, the difficult one we had. We have a holiday here in the United States called [00:17:30] Memorial Day, where we remember people who have died in war. So Cleave or Mike Oh, cleave or Mike slow down. Um, they said, And our quilt is similar to the Vietnam Memorial Wall in Washington. It's the AIDS version of the Vietnam Memorial Wall. It's a nice little quote that it would have worked in some situations. The interviewer then said, So [00:18:00] you are trying to equate these people who have died of AIDS are dishonourably with these brave men and women that have died for this country, and and it got really vicious. Cleave was very prepared and he speaks very well. He handled it. He handled it really, really well. What you need to remember is, if you are going to be on television, they're going to interview you for five minutes. 10 minutes. [00:18:30] When the story comes out, it may only be 20 seconds. So you want to make sure you say these three things 20 different ways. So when they do cut it up, your copy points are being used now. I also asked Leslie her opinions. What do you think about How are you feeling about Oh, no, I asked Daniel if you were to run the world or run [00:19:00] the budget. How would you handle AIDS? Why would I be asking somebody that is in there with a quilt? His opinion about the pandemic in Israel? You can come back and say I am here representing the quilt. It is a tool to educate people education. And it's an inexpensive way to educate people. I do not work at the government. I have personal opinions, but I'm representing the quilt. What's [00:19:30] very important to remember is that when you go out there, you're a volunteer. When you're a volunteer, but you also represent the quilt. So if you get up there and say between you and me, it's a pretty thing, it doesn't really work. You never want to say something like that. You always talk about what these things that are given to you. If you start making things up and say, Well, I think the government blah, blah, blah. And I think politicians, [00:20:00] you know, that doesn't work because when you start talking politicians, the quilt is the quilt is a nonpolitical tool to educate everybody. So if they ask you, do you think our government is doing enough? We are here to make sure the people understand they are not doing enough. That's a way to get out of it. So I asked you about politics and you turn it back on to education, Education, education. If it's a fund [00:20:30] raising tool, you can say we hope today's display will encourage people to get involved and donate their time and their money to projects like the names project. Um, these are all very important things, But if you look at your this is very important. If you look at yourself as an educator, you are teaching the audience something they never knew before [00:21:00] instead of your If your attitude is, I'm scared, I'm going to an interview. What are they going to say to me? I'm going to have to ask to answer these questions. What am I going to do? That's not the way to go into an interview. If you go to the interview and say, I am here to teach these people about a project that is international that has been seen by Presidents, Kings, Queens politicians from all over the world Well, lots of queens [00:21:30] from all over the world. And I am teaching them something they didn't know before. It's a much more effective way to present the quilt, and it gives you more confidence because you are there teaching them something they never knew before. Um, I'm going to give you some real basic things about how you sit, how you dress. These may not be significant, but [00:22:00] it helps if you're a man and you wear lots and lots and lots of earrings. Take them all out. OK, if you're a woman, you wear big earrings, and that's not part of your culture. Take them off if you are wearing something, if you get your hair cut the day before because you want to look good and you're worried that your hair is sticking up in the back. Don't get your hair cut the day [00:22:30] before If you drink lots of caffeine coffee and you talk real fast like I do. Don't drink coffee. If you're going to be talking to the media, your mouth gets dry. You speak fast, you get nervous. Now, the reason you don't wear big earrings. The reason you don't have lots of different holes in your ears. The reason you wear something comfortable is if you look [00:23:00] uncomfortable. People will be looking at you and not hearing your message. The best example I can give. I have two examples. I was watching television one morning and a woman was wearing huge earrings and she talked with her head, and every time she would talk, she looked like an elephant because these things would flap. I don't remember what she was talking about. All I remember was Dumbo. [00:23:30] I was on TV this morning. So, um, another thing. Another interview was with a woman who had long hair and she had a very large nose, very large nose, and her hair was falling in her face and the camera was here. All you saw from this woman was hair and a nose. I did not hear a thing. This woman said. [00:24:00] I was just thinking. Does she realise how stupid she looks right now on television? There's 20 million people out there watching her nose. So if you have hair in your face, pull it back. If you wear big earrings, don't there are going to be people in your audience that are not going to like what you have to say. Your interviewer may be sympathetic, but people in the audience [00:24:30] some people are going to think, Yeah, this quilt. Like I said, I my mother died of cancer. Where's her panel? That kind of a thing. If you look offensive to them like an advocate, like like a lesbian, like this radical left wing, whatever, they're not going to hear your message. You want to look as neutral, and you know what I'm saying? You don't want to overdo it, because if you try to look, [00:25:00] um, if you don't look like you fit in, your message won't fit in. And if you're trying to reach large audiences, the less offensive you are, the better. Um, other little tips when you sit. If I'm if this person is interviewing me and I'm sitting like this, what is my body language saying? I don't care, you know? Forget it. You know, [00:25:30] there was an interview when the International Conference on AIDS was here in 1988 89. They had an interview with Mervin Silverman, who is the head of Amar, the American Foundation for AIDS Research. Um, and he was in debate with a guy from act up Jesse Dobson. I think it was, and two chairs and Silverman was here listening and talking, and he would listen to Jesse and he would do this the whole time. Jesse, when [00:26:00] he wasn't questions, were not directed to him. He was over here like, yeah, you know, forget it, couldn't care less. Then, when they addressed a question to him, he turned around and he spoke poetry. I mean, it was incredible. The things he had to say. It was great. It was insightful. It was important. Nobody heard a thing, he said, because they were so disgusted with this attitude like Fuck you. I mean, and it [00:26:30] was if you didn't want to, like, act up, you couldn't, like, act up because he was. So I don't care what this doctor has to say. This doctor who is the most respected researcher in the country, in the world, on AIDS, I don't care what he has to say. So when Jesse spoke, no one listened or I didn't listen. I mean, I listened, but I didn't hear. So when a clue face your interviewer, cross your leg towards them. [00:27:00] OK? That always works. If their arms on the chair Don't do this. You'll look really scared. If there are two arms on the chair, put one up and one down or one up and one down. Much more natural than this. Don't clutch. A lot of people keep their nervousness in their hands, and that's really bad. Once there was a guy that was he was very nervous. His hand in his pocket. No, [00:27:30] don't do that. Um, there's it's very fun to watch. Scared good politicians versus bad politicians. You know who has practised. I'm going to give you an example from the first televised United States presidential debate, which was Kennedy and Nixon in 1960. They turned to Kennedy, and they said, [00:28:00] You're the youngest man ever to run for president. Are you too young to run for president? And Kennedy got up there. He looked right at the camera and he said, What you're really asking is who can lead this country? I come from And then he just started to talk about the Democratic Party and they didn't ask him about, you know, if he was able to lead the country. What you're really asking is, and so basically the interview [00:28:30] couldn't say no. No, no, I'm not. I'm not. And they while he's speaking, they would cut over to Nixon, who was doing this with his eyes, and he was sweating and he was so scared. It was the first televised debate. OK, he looked bad. That goes without saying. Then they turned to him and they said, How do you respond to that? Vice President Nixon, he said. No comment, no comment, says guilt. [00:29:00] Whatever was just said is absolutely right, and no comment is. You know, if somebody says to you, Is our government doing enough? No comment. You're saying No, the government isn't doing enough. You've just turned off anybody that believes in your government. I'm slowing down. Um, so if they say, Do you think the government is doing enough? A good response to that is the government will only do what people motivate [00:29:30] them to do. The quilt is a tool to motivate people to get their governments involved. You turn it around. You've answered the question. How you want to answer the question? Um, what I'd like to do now is rewind those two interviews. Oh, let's start with questions. Yes, Yeah, yeah. What about [00:30:00] how would you? The question was, How would you deal with what? About cancer? You get a question like that, then you think to yourself I've got three points education, visible symbol and this display if those are my three points. OK, um, we do not pit one disease against the other. We are here representing a disease that is bankrupting our country's medical [00:30:30] system. Therefore, we brought the quilt to educate about all kinds of problems. The problems that we're concentrating on today is AIDS. We're not saying cancer is not important, but we're saying we need AIDS needs education OK, or you can you can talk about cancer is devastating. There's lots of funding for cancer, and people understand cancer because it's more readily available. It's more present in people's lives. We're bringing the [00:31:00] quilt to educate them about a disease they know nothing about, perhaps that they need to know about so it doesn't strike them. I mean, it's it's not saying no, cancer isn't bad and we need it, too. You're not saying we're the disease, you know, more important of a disease than your disease. But we are saying it's important to look at all diseases, and one disease may get more attention. We would like people just to be aware of other diseases that may not be getting the attention. [00:31:30] We've brought the quilt to Buena Gardens June 19 22nd Come down and you'll understand the tagline. See the quilt and understand. I think the best way to answer Well, what about cancer? If you're in a local situation, come and see the quilt. You will understand why aids or why? Why, um, the quilt. Ok, more questions. I mean, actually, I'm more comfortable with questions. Yes, you know what? [00:32:00] And OK, good question right, Right. OK, I do this for a living. I do publicity for a living. OK, how do you deal? How do you get the media excited about the quilt to come down? What if they promise to come and don't come? Ok, Um, assume they're not going to come. OK, always [00:32:30] come from that. What country are you from? South Africa is your is the media state owned? Who makes the decision about what's covered? Who's your news director? Who says you go to cover this and not that? Is that a government employee or is it a private employee? If it's OK, I would. What I would do in a situation like that is find a sympathetic local politician [00:33:00] that is going to be there and send them information. The fact sheet that's in your books about the quilt. It's 32 tonnes. It's come from great expense. It's travelled all over the world. It has had a major impact on the smaller areas outside of big cities and the way we react to AIDS and make sure they know what they're missing, because what they think is they're going to get 112 by 12 look [00:33:30] at and go. Yeah, let them know it's going to be filling the hall. These are the prominent people that are going to be there. These are the prominent people that have already seen it. These presidents, these kings, these queens, these politicians 25 billion people. It was nominated for a Nobel Prize. It lost to the Dalai Lama, but it was nominated. I mean, you've got to make it more than a local display. You've got to make it seem as your [00:34:00] city in South Africa is getting the opportunity to take part in something that has been all over the world. If you got a local politician, a local activist, somebody that is involved in the cause to lobby on your behalf and to go with you, and you can say this politician is available to meet you at the quilt at 12 o'clock if you can't make it at 12, tell me what time you can be there. [00:34:30] I'll make sure this politician, this celebrity there may be there might be a celebrity in town that would want to support it. I mean, make it enticing for them. Remember, television is about movement and pictures if they're going to see if they have in their mind, they're just going to take this a picture of panels. That's not dynamic. If they understand, they're going to see great visual pictures [00:35:00] of two miles of panels. They're going to see rubber, cremation ashes, Barbie dolls, all the things that make the quilt interesting. You've got to make it interesting for them, not just come and see the quilt and cry. You know, it can't be that I will. OK, you don't have a local politician. I have got 20 mothers from this town who have lost their Children to AIDS. That would like to educate the people of this town, [00:35:30] and that's a great visual for them. I mean, there are many ways to get around of reluctant media and just keep on hammering it home. Let them know six months before we've been selected for it to come to our town three months before it's coming in three months. We already have these people on board two months before we have 25,000 volunteers a month before it's still coming, and this is who's involved now. Keep them updated The week before it comes. They'll either be so sick of you that they're going [00:36:00] to come just to cover the thing to shut you up. You know more questions. Yeah, I can't hear. How can you? You make sure that the display thank you. 00, you can't. You can't [00:36:30] if it's there and it's open to the public, they can do with it whatever they want. It's I'm assuming there are in what country are you from in France, you've got reality shows the exploitation TV saying, You know, look at all the dead fags on the quilt, that kind of a thing, right? You can't avoid them doing what they're going to do for ratings. They will do that for ratings. [00:37:00] It's a commercial. It's commercial television. What you can do is take the reporter aside and say What we are trying to do is visible symbol and education and then fill them in on the facts. Since 1988 the quilt has travelled. X number of miles weighs this much. It has had a major impact. Make them feel that if they did a really sleazy [00:37:30] rendition of the quilt, make them feel so guilty because they've missed the point. It's If you see a reporter at your site, make sure you take them aside and they know what your copy points are. Make sure that your copy points are practised so you can say them, you know, education, education, you know, visible symbol, visible symbol. June 19th June 19th. I mean, however, you're going to do it practise and practise and make. You can [00:38:00] pretty much tell from a reporter how their story is going to go. I was doing something of another client and they wanted a person that was sick. They didn't really want to hear about the cure. This wasn't AIDS. It was another disease. I worked for a hospital. They didn't really want to hear about the good things. They wanted to get the real drama. And I just said, You know, here is I can get you a mother. I can get you, you know, a blind child. I can get you whatever you want. But please know the focus [00:38:30] of this story is hope. And these are the people that are working on the cure. And these are the This is a way that we are educating the public. I'm slowing down. And that we're educating the public. Um, by the way, is this is is the light off the top of my head? Um, see what I would do if I were being interviewed? I'd wear a hat. My, the The reflection is distracting. No, Um, does that answer your question? Does that help? [00:39:00] Other questions? Um, did you Carl, did you rewind the tape? OK, why don't we rewind it and and we'll go and we'll pause. This is the real fun part. I like to We redo the interviews, and then we will pause it and see how we'd answer the question differently Now. Yeah, and, uh [00:39:30] um the properties I and [00:40:00] for that it you before Oh, good. So that that's that hasn't happened here. That's the first time that I've actually I've asked that question all the time. I mean, in this situation, Um Oh, OK, what do you do when the journalist is talks about his agenda? All [00:40:30] these dead gay people? The best way in a situation like this in a country where there are not AIDS is not talked about, is to give examples of other countries what you find your copy point, which is education if they're homophobic. You say in other countries it's perceived as a gay disease, but [00:41:00] it is growing out into other communities, and it's an educational tool. And if you look at the quilts, you'll see that it's not all gay people. Educate yourself. Take a journalist like that, take them in hand. Well, don't touch them on a tour on a tour of the quilt of the panels, show them the Children. Show them the women, [00:41:30] show them the brothers and fathers and sons and the fact that the people that are gone are part of a family. If they're still going to be homophobic, they may not be as homophobic as they were before you took them. The best thing if they're homophobic, that you can do is lead by example and and somebody like that. I hate to do this, but somebody like that you [00:42:00] want them to talk to the families personally. I'd rather have you talk to lovers and if they're homophobic, but that's next year. This year you've got to break through the glass, and that is showing them the humanity, which is the humanity behind the statistics. Educate them if you're going to use the quilt as an education tool. Educate them. In reality, that reporter probably would come to a display [00:42:30] wanting to trash it, wanting to put it on French TV and turning it into one of those cheesy sleaze fests. Can you translate sleazes fest into Russian? I don't know. Um but the best thing that you can do is have that person walk away just like somebody else coming to the quilt to walk away, Moved by the message and it's your job to move them. Does that make sense? [00:43:00] Does does that. Does that answer your question? OK, more. This is fun. More questions? Yeah. OK, mother. See what? Uh, bring a three by six, Bring one panel If what do you do with the studio? Is not big enough to have a 12 by 12. [00:43:30] Bring one panel and say this was made here locally. And this mother, sister, brother, friend lover is going to be adding it to the 36 tonne, 110,000 panel quilt to make it a bigger story. This is just one of 110,000 when they're sewn together. This is how big you need to describe with words what they can't see visually. And it would help you a lot [00:44:00] in that situation. If you took some of the video from some of the video productions that have been done, give it to them so they can at least cut out 20 seconds. This is one panel, and this is what it looks like I'll put together and then they'll cut away to that. I'm speaking fast again. I'm sorry. And I've been on panels like that. I was in. I was in South Carolina, and, uh, I was on a panel with three people and there was an AIDS educator and me [00:44:30] and a mother who was presenting her panel. So it works and they love talking about I mean, the people that have made the panels love talking, you know, Red symbolises I mean, they look, it's good. TV more questions. Carlos, are we ready? Oh, I'm gone. Oh, and I put my hand up my pause. OK? Is that OK? [00:45:00] Slow down even more. Oh, Ok. Um, we're gonna take pause, um, for the translators. But this is not how a real TV interview would look because TV interviewers aren't gonna be as, um As as I thought. Yeah, OK, we're here today with Leslie Barnes to talk about the names project and Leslie. What is the name the [00:45:30] name selection of? I always start with this question. I always start with this question. Leslie answered it correctly. Daniel. Sorry you didn't first time We did this back in 1987 88 I asked every person on staff, and at that time there were 10. This question. Not one person, said Quilt. Everyone said it's an idea of coming together and memorialising and what is names? Project. [00:46:00] They are the keepers of the quilt. The quilt is three by six panels. So memorialising somebody who's died of AIDS slow down. I know. I see the sign coming memorialising somebody who's died of AIDS sewn together to educate. Then you run into your copy points. The best way to organise yourself is no matter what my question is, what's the copy point? The quilt is and then describe it and then talk about. It's an educational tool. [00:46:30] It's a symbol. And she she kind of did it, but with no training, it was very good. Hm. Oh, run video. Who have done. So you're saying that everybody that is on the panel or somebody whose name is on the panel has died there? How many people in Canada, 11,000 people in Canada would have [00:47:00] panels for 1100? Those hold on a second? The sound is really bad. My question was so she answered the question. She did an admirable job. We couldn't hear her, but it was good. I know it was good. And then I said, How many people in Canada have AIDS? And she was very good. And she said, 11,000 people in Canada and we have 1100 panels here today. She brought it back to the quilt. That was a good answer. And this is with no training. [00:47:30] Can we get volume on that before you run it again? And hopefully we can hear it, huh? Run video. I'm not sure what you think about how many cases of cancer have you had in Canada? No. And how many cases? Let's say just a long answer [00:48:00] from smoking. No good in Canada. So you're saying there's double? There's double and Oh, OK, um, got you OK, um, what's really important is don't I know this was not a real situation. Don't try to sound smarter than your interviewer if [00:48:30] you were, because your interviewer is brilliant. Um, the problem here is if you take a position that you're an educator, you can teach them. But you can't say you're so stupid. What a dumb question. Because if you say that, remember, people are watching this show because they really like the interviewer or they really hate the interviewer in some cases. [00:49:00] But they want to hear what they have to say. And if you try to one up them, I'm smarter than you. I mean, I'm more You're so stupid. Wrong Way to go. You want to say, Oh, you didn't realise what a stupid question that was. You don't want to say it that way, but you want to say I see that you're misinformed. What the reality is. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. OK, so how many cases of lung cancer she I'm leading her now I have her [00:49:30] in the palm of my hand. Talk about cancer. I've gotten her off the quilt. She hasn't come back to the quilt at all. I've now got her. We talked about when the question of cancer comes up, we're not pitting cancer against AIDS. We're trying to educate people about a coming epidemic that has struck X number of million people across the world. OK, Yeah, absolutely. Saying cancer is devastating. As most [00:50:00] people know, cancer is devastating. What most people don't know is AIDS is growing at a rate 20 times what cancer is. We're here to educate you. So I mean, don't say cancer is not important. You'll turn everybody off. So yes, cancer is important as most people know what people don't know and what they need to know is OK, run tape. Canadians have died of cancer. [00:50:30] Do people in Canada have died from cancer and you're still putting this book together for people that have died from AIDS? Why won't you make the cancer instead? Well, people working in the area of cancer education and the people with whom I work and my personal interest is in AIDS. HIV, I don't believe what? Ok, [00:51:00] my personal interest is AIDS, I believe Well, you're going into a personal thing now and you're taking it as a personal attack. I mean, I'm personally attacking you, but remember, you represent something that this interviewer hates. And so therefore I'm saying I hate you and I'm going to make you uncomfortable. Your attitude has to be. I'm educating you, and when we're done with this interview, maybe you won't be so hateful. Maybe you'll understand [00:51:30] a little bit more, but you do. A lot of I believe, and my interest is, which is OK in a long interview. If you have 10 minutes, you can say whatever you want, as long as you come back to your copy points. If it's only going to be 20 seconds, just talk about your copy points. But if you have 10 minutes on a talk show in a studio, you can talk about your personal involvement if you want my personal. I made my first panel when this person died, [00:52:00] or I saw my first panel. I went to a display and it moved me so much like, I hope it moves all of you, your viewers, when they come on June 19th to the year by the gardens. You see what I'm saying, OK, roll tape, population of Canada 29. 29 million and you got 11,000 cases of water should we? As Canadians care to come out and see this? [00:52:30] How would you answer that now, Wesley, with 29 million Canadians in only 11,000 cases, why should we care? Um, we're bringing the quilt here today to increase the understanding. [00:53:00] Come see the quilt. You will understand It's impossible to put into words the effect the quilt has on you. Nobody walks away from the quilt unaffected. I mean, these are all tri Little saying that we have said a million times, but probably your viewers are hearing it for the first time. See it and understand no one walks away unaffected. It's a [00:53:30] perfect opportunity for your third copy point, which is come down to the display. OK, who are HIV infected and affected don't have the kind of support and are marginalised in a way that people with breast cancer, lung cancer, liver cancer are not. This is a real minor point and you the marginalised. Is that a word that toothless people in Tennessee will understand [00:54:00] of you pretend you're talking to an audience that does not understand words more than two or three syllables and use them OK? Yeah. Talk about some people crazy street there. OK, The question is, is it a good point that people are being discriminated against? [00:54:30] Only if you talk about that. In terms of the quilt, the reason the quilt was created so people could understand the discrimination that people. And so we're here to educate you back to your coffee points. We're here to educate you about that discrimination. That and it goes from there. Yeah, right. Did you hear that? She said she fell into a trap and she started comparing [00:55:00] the two diseases. And it's perfectly OK to say I'm here to talk about the quilt. Cancer is another big problem, but I'm here today to talk about AIDS. OK, uh, roll tape is your opinion for your opinion opinion that you're an advocate. I hate you support networks. What I'm suggesting is [00:55:30] that people who are infected and don't hold on a second pause. Do you see her body language? She's getting pissed. She's getting a little bit frustrated here, and she's like, What I'm saying is, if you're listening to me, jerk, you know, I mean, I'm pissing her off. I'm controlling the interview and she's being frustrated by it. OK, well, it It [00:56:00] it's true that most that, um, the majority in Canada standard of living. So you're saying they're not now? I started saying things you started saying People aren't financially ready and people are not. When you talk about financial, if you're going to talk about those kinds of things, have statistics if you're going to throw out generalities, because your interviewer [00:56:30] can come back with statistics so people with AIDS are poorer than other people. Well, what are you talking about? They have a higher standard of living whatever. I mean, if you're going to throw out any kind of generalities, make sure you have your statistics. My recommendation. Don't throw out generalities about money. And everybody is affected from all walks of life. And everybody is devastated on a personal on a financial on a political whatever from aides. OK, rollet, [00:57:00] we'll be back in a little interviews. OK, thanks. So OK, we're here with Daniel from Israel, and Israel is one of the first. See how many times he says quilt in this interview. The 85 [00:57:30] The name is the name organisation, which helps an international organisation that helps number hold on a second. It's an international organisation that has lots of goals. Oh, that's a good answer. Now what would you say? It is the keeper of the quilt, which is OK. Visible symbol. Educational tool. OK, go ahead. [00:58:00] Right now. What are we doing in Israel? What are they doing in Israel to help fight aid is one of the few issues that is being addressed by the health minister in Israel A. Which is interesting here because I said What are they doing in Israel? And you said it's the one issue that the government is dealing with. And then [00:58:30] as we go further on in the interview, you're saying it's the one. It's the one thing you saying the one health issue that's not being addressed. Oh, I thought you said it is being addressed. OK, never mind. Go ahead. And how are they impressing their OK? How is it going of power testing for HIV testing? [00:59:00] We're not giving any funds for education. No funds for people who paid for their family, no funds for counselling and no medical services to educate the medical staff to deal with people. Hold on a second, OK? He just said there's no funding There's no housing, there's no staff. There's no no, no, no, no, no, no. The government doesn't have that. And I didn't ask a single question in that 20 seconds. He could say the government [00:59:30] is not doing anything. Which is why we are here to educate about the need. He had 20 seconds to say whatever he wanted. I shot up. He had 20 seconds. I shut up. Um, so I basically gave him free reign to say whatever he wants, and he didn't take the opportunity. So I'm sorry I'm picking on you. Daniel. I hope you have thick skin. OK, go. How many [01:00:00] are there? How many cases are there in Israel? How many cases of AIDS? Today, over 150 people have died from AIDS. The official statistics say that approximately 500 people are HIV positive. [01:00:30] I love that question. If you were going to run the country, what would you do about aids? Well, I would create something that could educate people like the quilt that is being displayed in Tel Aviv on January 31st. I mean, you can get back to a copy point with any question. I asked him his personal opinion about what he would do to run the company. What you're really asking is is how can we educate people, you know? I mean, that's another way to do it. I mean, [01:01:00] just ignore my question and say whatever you want, OK, go education programme in the school system to teach youth before they start sexualizing teach you about sexual activity. Good. Way to go on. I did not bring up sex at all in either of these interviews. You did Sex scares A lot of people don't talk about sex. Talk about AIDS [01:01:30] as being a problem. We all deal with it. Maybe an interviewer would ask that question about sex. But the cardinal mistake here is that you brought it up so I went off on it. You want to teach kids about sex At what age? So run, go gay sex. I'm not here, so I can I would I think, personally, um, probably would start sex education. [01:02:00] Now he's giving his opinion of the sexual education programme, and I would make sure that that's complete package. But I would say it's important also to start eighth education to young people. What are you saying we'll be back. Um oh, we have five more. I was gonna say we have five [01:02:30] more minutes. What? This programme that I'm doing now, I usually give over an eight hour period, and I would interview every single one of you to help you work in copy points. Um, unfortunately, we don't have that time today. Um, I hope our goal here today was to give you an idea of how to get publicity when it's difficult how to answer the questions when they're difficult. I promise you, you'll never be Well, with the exception [01:03:00] of Russia, I don't think you're going to be getting many vicious questions. Most journalists are very sympathetic to the quilt and really love its power. And they try to communicate that if they don't, it's your job to give them that power so they can communicate it. Um, And it and it usually is easier than I thought. I've never thought that you'd get a homophobic reporter that wouldn't do a good job. Uh, that's a difficult situation. Um, [01:03:30] I'm Yes. OK, good question. And had we had other interviews, that was my next one. So how much money have you raised? to take this blanket around the country. Um, what you say is the audiences that the quilt touches is not necessarily an audience that would touch [01:04:00] you. There are people that see the quilt that have no exposure to AIDS and HIV. If you're going to be doing grass, grass roots awareness of the problem, you have to start with the masses, and the quilt is the best way to do it. It's not money that is wasted. That's a That's a very valid answer because the truth is I was one of those people a couple of years ago. I took a break from the quilt for a while because I thought, You know why? Why? I mean, this is San Francisco. Why? [01:04:30] And I thought about it. It's not talking to me like the movie Philadelphia, did you? Did you see Philadelphia? It wasn't talking to me. It was talking to other people that aren't affected. I liked the movie, but it didn't move me to action because I was already active. But it does have its purpose, and the quilt has a very big purpose. The fact that world leaders are seeing it, the fact that toothless people in Tennessee [01:05:00] are. If you're from Tennessee, I'm sorry. Um, but you know what I'm saying? It's It's addressing a different audience than somebody with HIV would be addressing. That's what that's. That's the way you respond or or or another copy point you can get into. Today's display will be raising money that will stay in this city at this time, you know, And it will be. It is a way to raise money for our local aids blah, blah, blah. And and it has raised money to date. But that could turn into a into [01:05:30] an argument a pissing match with somebody from act up. It could. So I would be very I would talk audiences. I wouldn't talk money. Yeah. Um um, So a lot of you a a choice. That what? [01:06:00] Yeah, yeah. Uh, yeah, it Would it be difficult to take out a 12 [01:06:30] by 12 or two to show in that situation? If people are coming and asking, I want to just see a 12 by 12 and take a picture and leave. It's not It's not the same experience. It's not the same experience is Is that that that's the question. Um OK, the [01:07:00] what I would do in that case is like I said, um, to France. Um, I would take before the display. I would find key people with good stories. You know, a father who lost his wife and daughter, a mother of a man who has died a family, a nephew [01:07:30] and have them available to talk about their experiences. And if they're looking for something, that's something more, but always related back to the quilt saying, And that's why they felt it was important to bring the panel as part of the bigger picture so they could be part of the bigger picture to bring an end to the epidemic. Does that answer it? Does that help? I'm [01:08:00] getting this symbol to wrap up. I will be available for a short time today. I'll be at the display on Saturday and Sunday. I can answer more questions, but please over the weekend, quiz each other and try, no matter what. The question was dinner. Good tonight. It was so good. It reminds me of the time I was in San Francisco with the quilt. OK, thank you. Oh, you guys wanna just Yeah, we're gonna have a break for if [01:08:30] we're having a break, why don't you guys this? These are the copy points in English, but I think they've been translated into Oh, your translators maybe can translate them with you. I was told they were going to and then we just have some pages from a booklet that I wrote what to do to the media. What not to do to the media dos and don't so and so we're having a break now. Enjoy your break.

IRN: 520
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/international_aids_memorial_quilt_conference_new_zealand.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004211
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089505
TITLE: New Zealand presentation - AIDS Memorial Quilt Conference (1995)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Warren Butler
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1990s; AIDS Memorial Quilt; AIDS Memorial Quilt conference 1995; Auckland; Christina Sunley; HIV / AIDS; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; San Francisco; United States of America; Warren Butler; health
DATE: 10 March 1995
YEAR: 1995
LOCATION: San Francisco, San Francisco, United States of America
CONTEXT: Warren Butler, New Zealand's representative from the AIDS Memorial Quilt, makes a presentation to the conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Greetings from New Zealand, land of the long white cloud. Listening to Cleave was like listening to my own story. Just the names and the places are different. New Zealand is a country about the size of California, consisting of three main islands and [00:00:30] many smaller ones. Down under. In the South Pacific, we have a population of 3. 5 million people and 60 million sheep. New Zealanders are a culturally diverse communities, from European to Pacific Islanders and Asians. [00:01:00] Auckland, of course. Auckland, our biggest city, has the largest Polynesian population in the world. Maori, the indigenous people of New Zealand are an important part of my country's consciousness. Tribal values and culture [00:01:30] are promoted by local and national government. The New Zealand Quilt Project was founded in 1988. The first official unveiling was in 1991. At this occasion, there were 32 New Zealand panels and 48 Australian. [00:02:00] This was the first time that I had seen the quilt I found I could not stop crying. So strong was the emotion and the impact of the quilt. As I am HIV positive, there is extra emotion up to this point. I had not wanted to be any. I had not wanted [00:02:30] to be part of any HIV group. But the quiet power of the quilt showed me how I could be involved and an organisation that is not only a memorial to those lost to HIV related diseases, but also educates through prevention and the understanding of the issues [00:03:00] that surround a positive diagnosis. 500 people have died in New Zealand, 1000 are known to be HIV positive. It is believed there is also 1000 more who have not tested. I now speak at high schools and to other groups [00:03:30] and I'm surprised how many people still believe that HIV does not affect them are sad factors that until somebody dear to them says they are positive, will the real impact of the pandemic be felt? In the smaller towns with populations of 10 [00:04:00] to 50,000, there is a There is more of a It doesn't happen here attitude. People living with the virus in these centres do not have developed social services, so the New Zealand Quil Project displays help raise badly needed funds. Local residents are always surprised [00:04:30] by the numbers of New Zealand New Zealanders affected. The media hardly ever do stories about positive New Zealanders. Sorry. Usually it is what is happening in America or Africa. This hopefully will change with a documentary [00:05:00] that has been made on the New Zealand Quilt Project and to be shown next week. But, alas, not on prime time television. We are now considered to be a national treasure, and we have local coordinators and four other cities. Apart from arranging visits [00:05:30] and displays, a large part of our time is spent looking for funds. And in an era where social services are being cut, this is not an easy task. I am looking forward to attending this conference and meeting everybody to exchange ideas that will enhance [00:06:00] all our projects. Thank you.

IRN: 527
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/international_aids_memorial_quilt_conference_school_displays.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004209
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089503
TITLE: Model school display programmes - AIDS Memorial Quilt Conference (1995)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1990s; AIDS Memorial Quilt; AIDS Memorial Quilt conference 1995; Australia; Christina Sunley; HIV / AIDS; HIV / AIDS; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; Thailand; United Kingdom; education; health; school
DATE: 10 March 1995
YEAR: 1995
LOCATION: San Francisco, San Francisco, United States of America
CONTEXT: A presentation on school display programmes in Australia, Thailand and the United Kingdom.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: This session is going to be a model school display programmes. Each presenter will have 10 minutes to do the presentation and there will be a 10 minute question and answers period after each presentation and if necessary, at the end of the session there will be another 15 minutes for questions and answers. So let's have the Australian Memorial School talk to us about [00:00:30] model school display programmes. The Australian AIDS Memorial Quilt Project was formed in September 1988 by Andrew Carter and Richard Johnson. It was a direct result of Andrew seeing the names Project quilt display in Atlanta, Georgia in 1987. We were the first project to form outside of the United States and I believe that regrettably, we are the largest. There are [00:01:00] over 1700 names on our quilt. To date, there has been 4753 deaths in Australia, 18,782 people living with the HIV virus and 5737 living with AIDS. Our project has branches or chapters in every capital city and is administered by [00:01:30] a board of directors. I am the education coordinator of the Sydney branch. Sydney is the capital of the state of New South Wales and the place with the highest concentration of people living with the HIV virus in Australia. In New South Wales, it is a part of the high school curriculum which is grades seven through to 12 that 25 hours a year be dedicated [00:02:00] to personal development. A portion of that time has to address HIV AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases. The Department of Education has developed a package for teachers to use. Teachers also have access to a number of organisations to help them fill. This time. The quilt project is one of them. I have been doing [00:02:30] these talks for the last 2 to 3 years as a volunteer going into about 30 plus schools a year. Last year, our talks came to the attention of not only the New South Wales Department of Education but also the New South Wales Department of Health through their AIDS and Infectious diseases branch. The result of this [00:03:00] was that this year the education position has been funded for 20 hours a week, primarily to produce and implement a package that supplements the existing package that is supplied by the Department of Education. The package has also been devised to promote the 1995 AIDS Awareness Week activities in New South Wales, so I'm the only person funded [00:03:30] for their work with the quilt in Australia. It is my job to go into as many high schools as possible in New South Wales, of which there are 552. The length of a talk will vary from school to school, depending on the age and reaction of the students. On average, it lasts about one hour. In the talk, [00:04:00] we cover the history of the names, project and the history of our quilt, and we use slides to help. We talk about why the quilt is important as a tool to facilitate the grieving process. We also take along a block and tell the stories of the people on it and explain the goals of the quilt, which leads us into discussions on safer sex and drug taking activities, [00:04:30] discrimination, self esteem, HIV and pregnancy and any other related issues. We have found that the quilt is indeed a very powerful tool in school education. The students always respond to it sometimes negatively, but mostly with open hearts and open [00:05:00] minds. And because I'm not the teacher that they see every day, they tend to ask me questions that they might not normally ask. I also tend to stay back afterwards because there is often a student who wants to talk to me in private or simply because the students are hungry for as much information as they can get on HIV and AIDS. [00:05:30] I mentioned before that there were other organisations that the schools can access. The two most prominent ones are all about AIDS, which mainly deals with transmission and direct healthcare issues and does a lot of work in the corporate sector and the Positive Speakers Bureau, which is run out of the Sydney PLWH A offices. [00:06:00] We do a lot of talks together. The three of us will go into a school for a day and talk up to 200 students each on a rotating basis. These days get a phenomenal response. They truly have a profound effect on the students because there will be a talk about transmission in the morning. Then they'll be speaking to a positive speaker who will tell them about what It's like [00:06:30] to live with the virus, and then they'll have me talking about the quilt. In situations like that, their feelings towards the quilt are immediate. Sometimes there are tears. Often there is shock, and always there are questions. The quilt appears to provide a space [00:07:00] for the students to talk about their fears and apprehensions surrounding HIV and AIDS. Of course, there is always an element of it will never happen to me. And sometimes derogatory remarks are made by the tough boys at the back of the class about HIV AIDS and homosexuality, but nothing that a loud voice and a sense of humour can't overcome. [00:07:30] I remember a school I went to on the last day of the school year. In 1993. There were about 30 students in this particular class. In the beginning, the tough boys were at the back and they weren't really paying attention. They slowly started to come around when I was showing the slides, and then when [00:08:00] the block came out, they started moving to the front and began asking questions. They ended up sitting around the block, almost as if they wanted to protect it. Then, at the end. They helped me pack up, thanked me for coming and kept talking to me outside the front of the school until my taxi came. I consider [00:08:30] that particular talk a great success. I think the most powerful element of the talks is the stories from the blocks. There is no better evidence than HIV AIDS is about people than the quilt. It takes the virus out of the abstract and into reality. When the students see a picture [00:09:00] of a person who has died on a panel lovingly stitched by someone who misses them, it touches them and reinforces the idea that they themselves are not immune. One of our main aims is to make sure that any decisions that the students make surrounding their sexual and drug taking activities are educated [00:09:30] ones, Rather than telling them how to put on a condom. We talk about the consequences if they don't in the state of New South Wales, it is illegal to discriminate against someone because of their HIV status or their perceived HIV status, [00:10:00] their sexuality or their perceived sexuality. The quilt allows us to talk about these issues and helps to dispel the myths surrounding HIV and homosexuality. This year, the quilt project Sydney is aligned with the 1995 World AIDS Day school poster competition. [00:10:30] Basically, students from around the state are invited to design a poster around the theme. AIDS affects us all. There will be regional heats and a state final on World AIDS Day, with prize money for the winning poster and the school that it came from. The quilt is providing educational backup [00:11:00] for participating schools. New South Wales is quite large, so to help me get into all of the high schools, all 552 of them we are in the process of training fourth year social work and welfare students from the universities. They will help me give the educational talks and to promote the school post competition. [00:11:30] This will be their compulsory placement component that forms part of their degree. Also, we have planned small Priscilla tours. Those of you who have seen the movie Priscilla, Queen of the Desert, will understand the reference. These tours will take in the rural parts of the state where we will present the education package during the day [00:12:00] and then have a small display at night using 12 to 15 blocks, depending on the size of the halls being used. Hopefully, by the end of the year, we will have covered the state with the quilt. And every high school student in New South Wales will not only know about safe sex, but practise it as well. Of course, these talks don't just happen in schools. [00:12:30] I have gone to universities, hospitals, churches, jails As long as they give a donation, I'll go anywhere, any time and talk about the quilt. We have been extremely lucky to have the weight of the education and health departments behind us this year. This assistance [00:13:00] not only provides dollars for the project, but reinforces the fact that the quilt works as an educational tool. I think it's quite an achievement that I can say that my state government supports us and our endeavours. Some of the results [00:13:30] of these talks that I have given have been that in some schools, AIDS awareness groups have been set up. They make panels, they raise money for the quilt project and other community based HIV AIDS organisations. Also now, a percentage of our volunteer base is [00:14:00] students from schools where I have been and Finally, this year at the National Rock EDD, which is a government funded quit smoking competition for high schools where students put on a dance drama about issues that affect them. One one school [00:14:30] in Sydney has decided to do theirs on AIDS. And they're using the quilt, That's all. Have you gone into any happens? Yes. Catholic schools. Jewish schools? Yes, they asked us. Yep. [00:15:00] So a year or a month for, um, as a volunteer, I went into about 30 schools. So far this year, I've been into 30 schools. I'm sorry. The question was, how many schools do they go into? The age group depends. I have gone and talked to kindergarten students because they had lost a peer. But mostly I'm talking to [00:15:30] grades seven through to 12. So 14, 15, 16, 17. Thank you. They let me say the question of people here. Carol, ask How do you initially get into schools? Do they invite you or or or do you make the effort of going? No. They invite us always this. How come [00:16:00] they invited you? They invite us because the state of New South Wales is divided into health regions and each health region has a HIV AIDS coordinator. All of the HIV coordinators know that I exist. So when a school comes to them and says Help, they say ring Sue. And also I've left some pamphlets up the back. Every [00:16:30] school in New South Wales is getting one of the blue ones. Um, Michael and then Michael. Go ahead. Yep. Sometimes you have negative reactions. What do you do? I find out why they're being negative, and then I try to work through that with them. Sometimes they're being [00:17:00] negative for attention only so they can appear tough in front of the rest of the class. I just go with the flow. I see what they're asking, and if I can turn it into a joke, I'll do that. If it means because they don't know a piece of information and they're just assuming something, I'll set them right. But it depends on what the remark is. We'll take one last question. Please write down your questions [00:17:30] and you can ask Sue again at the end of the session. Is that all in case or do you go out? CART asks. You say you always work with you, work with other organisations. Is that always the case or or do you go out independently? Both but the Positive Speakers Bureau promotes us and we promote the Positive Speakers Bureau and [00:18:00] we try very often to go out together. 0, 12 by 12 section Whatever. Thank you. Thank you. The next presenter is from Nam Chow in Thailand. How was that? Uh, good afternoon. I'm gonna talk something about Nancy. With [00:18:30] Nancy, we have a ad for understanding a workshop, uh, set up in 1993 uh, to work in a student to work with the student in the school, Uh, in a high school in in Thailand, especially in in the in the area that, uh, they have a serious time about a like [00:19:00] in the north, in the north eastern, the years after the student that, um, work that that, uh, our our our workshop work with this at the age about 15 to 18, and, uh, I'm gonna talk about, uh, some small a student in in in Thailand. A situation in Thailand has [00:19:30] reached all area or areas of everyday life. It's like, uh, such, like in the northern one village about, uh, 100 people. They have a people who were infected with HIV for one people. Uh, now every all area is, uh, face to the people who are who are infected. This, uh, [00:20:00] although, uh, information has given for several years in, uh, radio in, uh, television in, uh, cable, TV newspaper, some small book and pamphlets, but, uh, misunderstanding, uh, are still pretty well, And, [00:20:30] uh, this is have had many, many, Uh uh uh. Is there anybody in this room? Never six. Before in your life. Lift up the hand. Is there? Anybody in this room [00:21:00] Never seeks before leave up the hand and who never see the sickness before I live up the hand. How? How? Uh, the the people, um uh, she lift up the hand there. You never see the sickness before the sickness. [00:21:30] Yeah. Any sickness we ask, Uh, this is this is the first question. First, two questions. We start in the workshop with the student. Aye. And then we talk about, uh, when we was born. What is gonna come to concern our body? How How, How many? How [00:22:00] many disease lile with Ari and, uh, the the workshop in the room going to be provided in a group. Small group, Uh, four or five people to discuss and to find, uh, five diseases to to make a presentation in front of the room for the student. What is the symptom? What is the carrier? What is the case of [00:22:30] the disease? Uh, was this the, uh uh, uh uh, this is that you feel you want to disclose it. You want to undisclosed and let them make a presentation, And we let the the student who sit in the room and the peace and the student who prison in front of the room [00:23:00] discuss of each other. And we can we, uh we help to control the the the question like, uh, to like, uh, to pause slowly and, uh, to control in the in the case of the disease that passed by. Or you can see your father, your mother, your sister, your brother have a sickness. Mm. And [00:23:30] then the other part of a workshop start by, uh, be set setting the question, asked them like a, uh if the people sit beside you have AAA disease that they want to be on this court. Uh, if you know, by accident for the first maybe [00:24:00] the the the people have a and this don't want the people to know. And if you know, by accident how you feel about him, how you feel about them, How do you, uh uh uh, uh with them, [00:24:30] if you be, uh, deceased, that, uh, undisclosed. How do you want the the other people in this room to feel something about you? The answer. Come from the student we write on the on the board and we let the people discuss about the words on the board [00:25:00] is, uh is, uh, with, uh, uh, a national, Uh, positive. Uh uh, Answer a negative answer. And we try to make a discuss between positive and negative and make the people who are, uh uh uh who will still be in negative of the [00:25:30] the The answer is more positive. And when we finish, we we must have a suggestion to the to the to the student what is right, what is wrong. But but we try. Try to put, uh, to put a question to make the the student try to, uh, discuss until it's more a little [00:26:00] bit positive. And then it's the workshop with the volunteer. The volunteer who with With HIV to sit down in an easy, uh, atmosphere and and talking for, uh, for some, [00:26:30] uh, public health batsman. Uh, answer. Get from the student. How do they live in each other? How do they care? Take care of each other. How? They, uh uh, a family take care of them. How did take care of their family also take care of each other [00:27:00] and is talk like a almost, like AAA basement that living together and and af after this section, we tell some some story some of some people that are [00:27:30] that work with the group of people with HIV and pass by in in the last part of, uh, a workshop. We keep, uh, the panel for the group of the student to pain. Their feeling depend how [00:28:00] they think about the people, uh, who have not very good health. Uh, and the people who passed by by HIV you, you you can ask the question. [00:28:30] Any questions for two. Enrique. Oh, Gabriella, you put us in. Yeah, uh, gorilla wants to know. How do you get people involved? Do you invite them, or do you organise the groups ahead of time How does that work? We we, uh, do some, uh, a project [00:29:00] to the, uh uh uh uh min Ministry of education. First to, uh, have a support. Like a paper. It's easy to get to show the project to the to the, uh, to the school. We sent many school, uh, all all around Thailand and the school. They have a A budget, and they want to make a workshop. They answer, [00:29:30] and we go to def. Jamie. OK, do. I'm sorry? Do you have any skills? Um, OK, Jenny wants to know to in Thailand. Are there the skills to do sex education? The schools do sex education in Thailand. Uh, [00:30:00] sex, sex education is mean. It's part of, uh, uh, education system. You mean? No, just just some part. A little bit. Just some part a little bit is is like a taboo in for Buddhism because, uh, uh, 90% of Thai is very, very strong. Buddhism is gonna be like, uh, when I'm When I was young, [00:30:30] I'm trying to find AAA education by like, a playboy, like a video or something like this. And try to, uh, discuss with friend or some some teacher who understand Gart? Yes. The question is, do you take the Quil only to schools or also to other groups? Uh, we for, uh, for the quill. Uh, we [00:31:00] we did a workshop in the school, in the factory and in some group of other slum, but all my sister in the school. But when we take Quil to show the school is not have much effect because the the the target that we, uh we we put to the people who who who who join the workshop every time we bring to the school [00:31:30] just for show It's not. It's not much effort. And many times we bring to to the conference in Thailand is only decoration. Why is that? Because, uh, they don't know. They they they're not with the with the with the what is the is why is he [00:32:00] like this? Because the the thing is is always happened in in in the information was given by by by by government. Always threaten. I will make you fear make you scared and easy to control. And this is the clear. This is just bright. Just like a cartoon. Like a decoration. Beautiful. They have, [00:32:30] uh, they don't know. What is this? What is gonna be concerned about is until they come to us and ask, What is this? But not so many people, but we hope in in the future Uh uh, the the student that that we did a workshop in the high school come up in the university. They're gonna make, uh, uh, uh, like a from from group to group from [00:33:00] person to person. And they're gonna make, uh, uh, uh uh some some activity in the university by their own group. And if they they if they still have a a exhibition they can explain to the others. We'll take the last two questions, and then we'll go to our next presenter, Rob. [00:33:30] Rob, what is your question? Uh, so So how do you get, uh, the information about the H ID to use? You said before that you have. You don't have sex education in school. [00:34:00] So how do you get information about HIV to the youth in your country for for for a prevent? The video is happen every day for for, uh, for for take a condom. Just only say about the condom. It's not. Say something about the relationship from people to the people. Only if you go to the If you go with someone only take condom. [00:34:30] We have to go on to the next presenter. Please write down your questions. We will have time after the next presentation. Thank you too. Our next speaker will be from the names Project UK in Edinburgh. My name is Annie. [00:35:00] I'm one of the directors of the names Project UK. That's the British Aid Memorial Quilt. We're based in Edinburgh in Scotland and we began on World AIDS Day 1988. We have an office and a workshop in Edinburgh and nine quilt workshops around the country. We have a very high demand for displays, but we have very little money [00:35:30] and since 1993 no paid staff at all. I'm here to talk about our education programme and I'd like to thank Christina for saying much of what I was going to say. So what I'd like to do is to expand a little on the thinking behind our education programme. I realised that for other [00:36:00] countries you're in very different and often difficult situations in some countries. It is simply not possible for you to work in the way that we do. But it may be worth considering the our approach as something perhaps for the future. And it may also be something that you could consider in terms of looking for funding from your own government. [00:36:30] Education has always been fundamental to the work that we do, but equally central and equally fundamental is the involvement and participation of people who are themselves HIV positive. We're very lucky that there are people within Britain who are prepared to stand up [00:37:00] and be open about their status. HIV positive people are the most appropriate people There are to talk about what it's like to live with HIV and what it means to be HIV positive. The fact that those people will be open about their status is very powerful, particularly in terms of education. [00:37:30] Often it's the first time that a young person has met somebody who is HIV positive, and that in itself can be a very good experience for them. Our Education pack was written in 1992 by a school head teacher called Gerald Cowan. [00:38:00] The pack forms the basis of our education work together with the experiences of positive people The primary focus of our education pack is to talk about loss and bereavement. It's aimed at Children between around about seven and 15, and the starting point [00:38:30] is Children's own personal experience of loss. I find it very interesting that in the United States, the primary focus is on HIV prevention education. I think it indicates a difference in our cultures. [00:39:00] In the UK, we start by talking about loss, what it means, how it feels, how we can help and how we can support each other with older young people. We talk about what it's like to live with HIV. I think that individual projects need to make their own decisions about where [00:39:30] their starting point is. In Britain, Children experience loss very early in life, in lots of different ways. Could be divorce, moving, house, death of a grandparent, all sorts of things, [00:40:00] all sorts of things. Within schools, there are no real opportunities to discuss loss as an issue. Mhm. Where it does arise is in situations of isolated crisis. A child dies within the school. A parent dies. There's [00:40:30] a crisis. It's very difficult for teachers to handle, and we can help teachers in that by using the quilt as a starting point for discussion around loss and bereavement that naturally leads on to discussion about issues around HIV [00:41:00] and issues around HIV prevention. There are two main ways that we work with young people. School groups come to our public displays. Whenever we put on a display of the quilt. The local organisation [00:41:30] will contact every school dealing with Children from 7 to 18 in their area. Thank We also take the quilt into schools for both school visits to displays and visits to schools [00:42:00] whenever we can. We like HIV positive people to do the talking. We also use the worksheets that were mentioned earlier on the The worksheets are designed for Children of different ages [00:42:30] and different abilities. It may be Identify your favourite panel, draw the panel and say Why you like it? We have worksheets on specific panels. Find this panel in the display and answer these questions about it. OK, [00:43:00] another one draw something or someone that you've lost and then write down. How did that feel? I have to say that we get lots of pictures of dead hamsters and dead goldfish, but [00:43:30] that's good, because thinking about someone or something that those young people have lost personally helps them to understand why the quilt is important. We also use the letters that come with some of our panels where we've been given permission, and those can also be very useful [00:44:00] in preparatory work in the school before the quilt arrives. I guess one problem is that once you open the box, once you encourage Children to talk about loss and their personal experience, you have to deal with what comes out. In many ways, [00:44:30] our biggest problem in dealing with schools is dealing with teachers who fall apart in the corner and don't want the young people to see them in that state. What that highlights is the need for staff development and as far as we can, we would try and encourage work with teachers before we ever get to the school [00:45:00] and support for them. Afterwards. I'd just like to give you one example of the results of feedback that we received from one visit to a school over four days. 5 500 young people [00:45:30] between 11 and 16 saw a display of the quilt in their skull. Workers went into individual classes, introduced the quilt talked about HIV OK, [00:46:00] what it's like to live with HIV and took small groups around the display, telling them some of the stories from the panels. The display was also open during the lunch hours and one afternoon to parents. The feedback that we get whenever we do a display [00:46:30] has always been positive. In this case, 206 young people completed a feedback questionnaire. Of those, 205 thought it was worthwhile to have the quilt in their school, [00:47:00] and 205 thought that the quilt should be taken to other schools. 59% of those young people thought that the project had greatly helped to increase their understanding of issues around HIV and AIDS, and 81% [00:47:30] thought that the project greatly helped to remove the stigma attached to HIV and AIDS. I think that that clearly demonstrates the value of the quilt as an educational tool just to bring things full circle. I'd like to quote from the introduction to the education pack. [00:48:00] In his introduction, Gerald Cow says Our role is to build upon the memory of those our communities have lost to learn and to teach the social and the medical history of the epidemic as it happens, [00:48:30] and to arm our people, especially our young, with knowledge, understanding and respect. In that hope, we foresee not only their personal protection in the future, but [00:49:00] the building of a more aware and compassionate environment for those who have lost and are losing. Thank you. I'm sorry. Do you have a question or do you have a comment, Christina? Oh, so Jesus, Chris first and then next [00:49:30] mission to come to the store 2015. The question is, you mentioned permission to go to the schools. Can you explain what is the process to get that permission? OK, in general, we are approached by individual teachers and head teachers. Um, in some areas, [00:50:00] an education authority will fund a programme of work within schools in their area. But the comment is so you don't take the initiative. We have no paid workers and no money. And no time. If we did have money and time and resources, we'd be there. Yeah, Yeah. [00:50:30] Christina, snakes and Clement afterwards, Christina. Great. So beautiful. And I wanted to ask you, um, have a very serious problem. We will equal a orphans, for example, in New York City. Now I know it. Probably awesome. Thousands and thousands of Children who by day, starting to work with [00:51:00] them as well, Having worked with the Children, Um, specifically date or just from your knowledge of working with Did anyone get the question? The question was essentially, have we worked with Children who have lost parents to AIDS? Um, personally, [00:51:30] I haven't, uh I don't know, actually, whether other people have, um it is certainly something that we're going to have to consider for the future. Clement, you had a question. Um, how? Oh, see to go. And I hope [00:52:00] you find that and then you want to go and give it to How would you approach? Because they know you as a very established thing is still growing. What? That question What? What? How we approach? [00:52:30] Yeah. The question is, how would you approach to educate a particular group of people? The example given is doctors who are even afraid of touching. There are people with HIV. Is that correct? So how would you approach getting to those particular groups? Those particular groups? [00:53:00] I wish I knew. I think that would be my answer, I think where you, um Where you have a community, A group who don't want to know the route to those people has to be through their decision makers, their policy makers. They have to be told by their bosses that they have to listen. [00:53:30] They I I'm not sure. I, I don't know is the answer to that one. What kind of practises you identify? A need for a How would you get to that? Thank you. Because from from what I've heard is people come to you because they know that they need you. But now, when you identify that there is a need to address that I think [00:54:00] we would I'm sorry. Let me repeat the question. Clement says when? When you identify the need to get to a particular group, how do you approach that group? What you have identified generally, I think we would approach workers within that that community already, um, and try and encourage those people to introduce discussion. [00:54:30] An alternative would be to simply put on a quilt display and stand back and and allow people to decide for themselves whether they want to take things any further. Oh, uh, Rob had a question. Do you still have it? Ok, um [00:55:00] now we have 15 minutes of questions for all three of our presenters. And I know that before Andre and Enrique both had questions for two. Do you still have questions? Jesus has a question. OK, so the question is for you. You said that it's not [00:55:30] information material to teach us to be is going on how you do that for you? The question is for Annie. You said that you work with the teachers before. What? He said before you go there, what kind of material or what is the process that [00:56:00] will get you to that point of, you know, working with teachers? It's a combination. Um, does this thing work? Uh, it's a combination, really. Sometimes we would send information, um, other times and preferably, we would go and meet the teachers, talk to them about what was going to happen and try to talk to them about how they are going to feel about having the display in their school and to try and [00:56:30] prepare them for the emotional impact of the display itself. Often, teachers who approach us have seen the quilt before and and are aware of the emotional impact that it can have for them. God has a question. Don't have people. Do you do this all over the country? And [00:57:00] how do you organise it or pay for it? Since you don't have people or money Mhm we The way that we get some money is to charge organisations for us to bring the quilt to their community. And in doing that part of the package is [00:57:30] that we will go into local schools. Um, we don't have enough money to operate a comprehensive programme. I wish we did. Yes, we do. Do it all over the country. We go anywhere that anybody asks us to, um if we can get there. Chico had a question the [00:58:00] Yeah, mhm. The question is for two, and Enrique wants to know, uh, he has heard that in Thailand there exist quite a lot of, uh, young male prostitution. And if that is the case, are you able to reach those groups? And how do you [00:58:30] do it for a young man in sick work? Uh, for the young man in sick work is the part of, uh uh uh empower. Empower is the part of, uh is a part of, uh, uh, N TV is the part of Empower Empower is working for, uh, uh, the woman who who is the worker and some part of, [00:59:00] uh uh uh uh uh like a a man's insect workshop. It's just like, uh, get information by a by a by a by a book by a brochure from empower. And there are there are some some group of, uh, organisation in Thailand called, uh uh mean, uh, a white board or something. This is a group to work with the the workshop with [00:59:30] the like a jazz dance workshop workshop with a, uh uh educating. Uh uh uh uh uh about a group just as a point of clarification for all of For those of you who don't know, empower is an organisation in Thailand in Bangkok that works mainly with commercial sex workers. So the programme that covers women [01:00:00] sex workers also covers men and they are approach or their outreach to by means of brochures and written material and theatre mark. Ok, uh, Danny And for do you have with Education project [01:00:30] and these other parts of right Miss Central Family foundation with Did everyone get the question? You have experience with, uh, programme exhibiting and displaying role in schools as well as to the [01:01:00] general public. What this do you have? The The question is, do you have experience but displaying the quilt in school as well as to the general public All in one space at the same time? And it's for either for either one of you. OK? Yeah. Yes, yes, we do. Um, we, [01:01:30] um generally with the names project UK we work with local HIV support organisations and they organise the display. It is their display of the eight memorial quilt, not our display, does it? Do you understand that distinction? That that because the quilt exists for everybody and it belongs to everybody and it's essential that local communities [01:02:00] feel that it is something that is for them, Uh, and that that they are part of, um So yes, we work with within local communities with local community groups and within schools at the same time exactly the same. We often have big displays. That is the Bobby Go. For instance, the Bobby Goldsmith Foundation invites you [01:02:30] to an entire display of the Australian AIDS memorial quilt. We do things like that which helps raise money for us and for the Bobby Goldsmith Foundation. But for for understanding. And we also did in in in the factory and in the slum also, and we display the from the student every, uh, the first of December day [01:03:00] every year. Warren had a question that think that just will not happen to them. And if so, how do you get past that? The question is, in the schools have you ever heard had a group which thinks that AIDS will not happen to them [01:03:30] culturally? And then how do you get past that? And who is the question for all of you? I go fight for that, Mike, Um, I can give you a, um, a specific. We're trying to get the message across to, uh, the Muslim community of New South Wales. In fact, Australia and how I do that with the students. Uh, you have [01:04:00] to be very, very, very careful because if you say things the wrong way, you're putting a slur on the whole culture. So if I know that I'm going to a school and specifically targeting Muslim girls or Muslim boys I will do a lot of homework beforehand and go and speak to other HIV AIDS workers who work with Muslim groups and will speak to Muslim leaders [01:04:30] and the Islamic Women's Association and get as much of the cultural information that I can get and use that and their blessing to go in and try and do it. Mark had a question. Andre has a question when you work in the school. Um, and you were talking about how you both are And [01:05:00] is it is it? How do they do it? Are they all their own position or what? How how did you get that? The question is, how do you get the kids in the schools involved in making the panels? Uh, we we we send a project, uh, project to many school around Thailand. What? What we are doing about, uh, is is education. [01:05:30] And if the if some school ready to to do the workshop, they answer, and we go If, uh, some some school don't don't want to join the workshop yet they say no. What, like the student, the question is more about the student and the students themselves. How do you get the students to get to be interested in making the panels. [01:06:00] How how do you make the student the student interest to make the panel? Uh, from from the from the first that I tell about the workshop and then the workshop insist, Uh uh. Include, uh, we we we gonna let them painting and keep the pioneer for painting that they they make a collaboration work already because it's the part of a workshop. Everything, uh, every [01:06:30] every student with it. We have two minutes left. Carol Jacobs had a question. The parents, because in South Africa you may go into the school, but if black parents take you out and very few parents, um accusing us of teaching their kids things that they don't know, I wish they did. [01:07:00] The question is, how do you get past the parents? Since in South Africa, this is a big problem. Who's the question for Carol? Either one of you, I can tell you this. We had an area just outside of Sydney that was very antagonistic towards HIV aids. They'd had a very bad experience in their community, and we needed to target that area. And the way that we got [01:07:30] in is that we went to the school at night and gave the talk that we were going to give to the students to them. First they could ask whatever they wanted. We told them whatever they needed to know, we laid down a bit of ground rules, worked out our parameters and got it. So everybody was comfortable with what was going to happen. Clement has a question. It seems quite easy. [01:08:00] Uh, reach the That's cool. How do you reach the out of then? Thank you. Wonder. The question is, it seems that is is here to reach the schools? How do you reach the out of school youth? How how do you reach the dropouts who are probably more vulnerable? Who is the question for [01:08:30] one? We've left information and posters around all the youth shelters and the youth workshops and where we know homeless youths go and places, you know, where basically where we know that they go and the social workers that work with them as well. And then the social workers will get them into a group if they want, and we go and talk to them. But we make sure that [01:09:00] they get as much information if they want it, as the students in schools teach themselves and you can read it right and the social services that are available. The comment is, he imagines the situation where the youth themselves cannot read or write, and social services are not available. I think the way [01:09:30] that that we would approach that is to try to. And it is. It's all about making whatever efforts you can. We're not. We by no means perfect. Try to put on public displays of the quilt that are open and accessible and to make sure that that there are directions to get to that display. So we have banners outside. [01:10:00] The doors are always open, um, and so on and so forth. We But it is. It is very, very difficult to reach those people. But I think the only way you can really do it is by opening up the the the quilt and the display to everybody and and trying not to limit access to anybody. And I know it's not a perfect answer, and I don't really have AAA perfect answer for it [01:10:30] that that's all the time we have. For now. Please uh, write down your questions and you can always, uh, ask the questions to the presenters during the break time or after the presentations are over. Thank you all very much.

IRN: 522
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TITLE: International Quilt projects - AIDS Memorial Quilt Conference (1995)
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TAGS: 1990s; AIDS Memorial Quilt; AIDS Memorial Quilt conference 1995; Canada; Christina Sunley; HIV / AIDS; Japan; NAMES Project; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; San Francisco; United States of America; Zambia
DATE: 10 March 1995
YEAR: 1995
LOCATION: San Francisco, San Francisco, United States of America
CONTEXT: Representatives from Canada, Zambia, and Japan make presentations to the conference.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Our next presenter is from the names Project Canada, La Project, Deno, Canada. That's so beautiful. I brought my own cheering section. It's always very moving, listening to cleave. And it, of course, reminds me why we why we are all here. [00:00:30] And sometimes when we're working away at all the administrative functions that are associated with the quilt, I, along with our volunteers, take out some of the panels to look at them again, to just remind us why we're really here. Because it's very easy to get caught up in a lot of the other issues to get the quilt out there. [00:01:00] But back to Canada, Canada is geographically very large. I should have brought a map. We are in fact physically larger than the United States. But we only have 29 million people in our country to accommodate the major concepts of the quilt. What we did was establish a national [00:01:30] board. Now, for those of you in geographically large countries, you know that this presents its own kind of difficulties. So we have board members across a 5000 mile distance. We try to arrange them every 1000 miles or so, so we have the country divided into five geographical regions and in each of those regions [00:02:00] we have small committees working together as well as our five regional directors on the national board. We have four members at large, all of whom are HIV positive. They remind [00:02:30] us on a daily basis, what those issues are that are important to the HIV community and, of course, to all others who are affected. We began our project in 1989 but as many of you know the there are a lot of political difficulties surrounding HIV AIDS. And in Canada, the pro the original project [00:03:00] folded after three years. We then had a break for two years, and it's only in this last year that our new group has taken over management of the quilt. In fact, we're about one year old this week. Yes, Happy birthday. We have now 55 sections [00:03:30] in the Canadian quilt that represents approximately 1100 names. We have 450 individual panels, and our first national display is going to be next week in Edmonton, Alberta, where we will have all our sections together. When I take [00:04:00] the three that we have here, this week. We've had about 40 displays and loans in the past year. We loan anywhere from one section to all 55. But mostly we find that the impact of the quilt can be felt with two sections or five sections or 10 sections, [00:04:30] and so that those are the loans we try to encourage. We've had some. Well, what I should say is all the loans are very emotional. They are to each of the audiences. But we've had some particularly interesting loans in the past six months. We were invited by a very large Buddhist community in Halifax, which is where [00:05:00] I'm from on the east coast of Canada to have three quilts or three sections at the investiture of the new spiritual leader for a very large Buddhist community. And that was a particularly moving event. Their their spiritual leader, commented on the sections that were there. We also had sections in a northern [00:05:30] Canadian community for a native stone raising ceremony and of course, like most of you, we have sections in schools and in universities and just generally in communities who are interested in raising awareness. Education for us is the key. We also have a high school [00:06:00] quilt programme which was based on the UK S production of materials and the programme that they have. We're very grateful for that. We're just beginning, as you might imagine, because we're only one year old. We completed last week our own Internet project. So we have photographs digitised of all 55 sections on a CD ROM, and we're now talking about [00:06:30] some of the ethical issues around the use of those images. And we would be delighted to talk with any of you who can share with us some of your concerns or ideas about changing the public image of the quilt. Once you put the quilt on the worldwide Web or computers, you start dealing with the quilt in a very different way. We have concerns [00:07:00] about this, and, as I said, we would be pleased to hear your thoughts on how this can be most effective and just like all of you, I'm sure funding is a major issue. We're all volunteers at the national board level, and our primary objective is to get the quilt out there and to talk to people. As Cleva said about the individuals behind these panels. Canada [00:07:30] is a little bit different than many of the other countries. We do have a fair amount of funding for AIDS community projects, but of course it's never enough. We're delighted to be here. There are four of us. You can tell us by our shirts. Not today, Judy. And please feel free to talk to us and share with us your ideas about what you're doing. Thank you very much. [00:08:00] Our next presenter is from the Zambia AIDS Memorial Quilt. I am from [00:08:30] Zambia, a country of about 8 million people. Zambia could be as big as Nigeria. Um, I come from a region where AIDS actually Zambia is a place where it's the hardest hit in the world. And, um, I can't wait to [00:09:00] see the quilt back home. I'm surprised to see that we have few people who have come from a region where AIDS is the order of the day. I think the quilt would be the best tool of education back home because it is not too academic. I am called [00:09:30] Mr AIDS when I work with the quilts on Outreach and AIDS education. Not that I've taken the quit very often, yet our Zambian AIDS memorial panels still being rather recent I have been and an AIDS educator and counsellor at our house for the last three years. Her house [00:10:00] is at home, a place where people are HIV, positive, are welcomed. The stigma is so strong in my country that people seldom talk about it, that people who are diagnosed HIV positive cannot be talked to or you can get close to them. I tested [00:10:30] positive in 1992. Join the positive and living squad as a group of people who are who is whose status is positive. I gave up my job as a brick layer, discovered my talent as an artist and became an outreach education worker. [00:11:00] Last month, the British Council in Lusaka that is the capital city of Zambia, had called for Hope House, this person to give a talk to their staff. I and two other pals colleagues responded. I had taken our hope house quilts and gave a talk to a capacity of 30 people [00:11:30] using our four panels as openers. At first, the people did not show any interest, but when I hung up the panels, it made them curious. I told him that the panels commemorated my pal's friends at her house about my own positive status and about the importance of being open and careful about AIDS. Comments were. If someone dies of AIDS, [00:12:00] the chapter is closed. It is better not to talk about it. Why remember someone who is gone? I knew that the British Council had lost their librarian to HIV and that a panel in his memory had been made. Not all staff members knew what it meant to have Mr Monas quilt on display in their video library, even though they had all signed it. [00:12:30] It gave me the perfect opportunity to talk about remembering the names and about the AIDS chapter being far from closed two weeks before I've been to a two week artists workshop, 23 artists from 23 artists from all over the world. We are assembled to work on their designs and techniques. I am a painter and a sculptor, and apart from working on my art, [00:13:00] I used every opportunity to talk about my other work that is counselling and and AIDS outreach education. At lunchtime dinner or break time, I brushed to the topic that is our end. My nickname Mr Aids. I sold T shirts inscribed Use a condom and no condom, no sex. I told the Kenyan delegate how HIV [00:13:30] was transmitted. He didn't know and I ended up telling everybody who infects whom, where they are, learned that another of the powers had passed away. Redness. Shinde was her name. I had known her very well, but couldn't help but think another name for the quilt. [00:14:00] Last month I lost my very good friend and pal colleague Dixon Chita. During the last two weeks of his life, he was lying unconscious in hospital. Neither the nurses or his family wanted to touch him or care for him. I did, actually. We have brought his quilt, which [00:14:30] you soon see thank you very much. Our next presenter is from Memorial Quilt, Japan. On November [00:15:00] 10th, 1990 about 30 people from all walks of life gathered at a dying studio in Kyoto, a student creators, art gallery, proprietors, architects, businessmen and in this group was Mr Yoshiki Ishida, who later Bra bra, stepped forward to be the person to publicly announce his HIV status. [00:15:30] This meeting was the best of America to Japan at this time. The spread of the HIV virus was just beginning to be used as a serious social issue in Japan. Due to the ignorance and misinformation in the society, those infected with HIV were forced to live very uncertain lives. [00:16:00] The creation of NPO groups and the beginning of a movement to teach the general public and the choice of AIDS was initiated by people living with HIV and AIDS. Except for some very expect, the mass media government and those in the medical field has a tendency. [00:16:30] Oh, sorry. Uh, except for some very rare exception, the mass media government and those in the medical field has a tendency to ignore the plight of those affect affected by HIV. Many of the spreads have either [00:17:00] been school related or held at academic institutions. Institute. The sex education of the Japanese school system is infamous for ex excusing any so called controversial subject. This explain why it does not allow for any open discussion of AIDS [00:17:30] because of this conservative position. The circles, the flame clam touching the heart of the matter, only mentioning in a vague, vague and informative way the importance and importance of prevention of AIDS in the field of education. The market has presented a way for [00:18:00] the Japanese to focus on not only the issue of prevention, but to also recognise the human side of the issue and the I the importance of normalisation. As a result of our contributions to aid education, students had been able to not only know about the, but also [00:18:30] because able to think was seriously about their own sexualities and lifestyles and bodies. This movement has an important role in education. Those who many who may become become involved in AIDS [00:19:00] frontier works in the future. In addition, we have also been invited to hold this spread at many health centres and administrative office and various community groups. Here, I I'd like to show you one panel of our kilt. This is the most [00:19:30] recent in the Japan because we are able to put in with an eight panel set we have brought it at one panel, are here There is no name or any form as identification. So on it. Yet because this type of bad this type of bad the crop, [00:20:00] they present a certain region of Japan, we know from where it originated, the blood symbolised the sadness and tray of the HIV positive Hemophilus the arrow. They present the prejudices of the society. The has injured the bad wing wings. [00:20:30] This cure is in memory of the people with HIV and AIDS who have passed out or continue to fight against AIDS in this region. The number of government number of doubts, the present, the number of people with have passed away and left this open and [00:21:00] compassionate world to fight off to heaven and legally. According to the government statutes, the number of people with HIV and AIDS in this region is zero. This is because the number of AIDS cases reported by the government does not include those people infected by contaminated [00:21:30] blood products, the AIDS prevention policies and active by the administration as the government's way to ensure that the number of cases remained zero. In such a society, the making of a cure also provides a A media for the PW, a [00:22:00] friends and family to express their feeling dispute and that the spraying of it had broken through many so social table and even a lot for families or the to discuss it more openly. [00:22:30] The cut further strengths theon the bond between one another and plays a vital role in the mourning progress process. In addition to this code, I invited you to take a look at the code with their courageous expression. Drank the next three days. Thank [00:23:00] you.

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TITLE: HIV prevention and youth - AIDS Memorial Quilt Conference (1995)
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TAGS: 1990s; AIDS Memorial Quilt; AIDS Memorial Quilt conference 1995; Christina Sunley; HIV / AIDS; HIV / AIDS; NAMES Project; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; San Francisco; United States of America; education; youth
DATE: 10 March 1995
YEAR: 1995
LOCATION: San Francisco, San Francisco, United States of America
CONTEXT: A keynote presentation on HIV prevention and youth.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Let me say just a little bit about me and etr. So you have some idea where I come from and then you'll understand why I'm going to talk to you about young people and how to do HIV prevention with adolescents. I started working with adolescents. Oh, I hate to even tell you in 1968 as a classroom teacher. And as you know, that was before HIV, and I was like, 20 years old or 21 [00:00:30] years old, and I had a student come to me and say, I think I'm pregnant and I had no idea what to say to her. Um, But I talked to her and I called some people in the community and I said, Help, how do I help this young woman? And they gave me some assistance about how to talk with her and how to get her to talk with her parents. And in that one year of teaching, [00:01:00] I had 20 girls come to me and say, I think I'm pregnant now. That sounds like a lot, and it is a lot because there are only about 350 students in the high school, so that was my introduction to working with young people around issues about sexuality. I've been doing it ever since. [00:01:30] About 14 years ago, I had the opportunity to work for an organisation that was just starting. Called ER Associates, ETR stands for education, training and research, and we do education, training and research as it relates to providing good health education to young people. [00:02:00] K through 12 kindergarten through 12th grade in 1987. The centres for Disease Control who was sponsoring this conference, gave us a five year grant money for five years to develop programmes for young people to help them prevent the spread of HIV. [00:02:30] So that's my background. That's how I come to you. In the last few years at ETR and at CDC, we've been asking the question. What really works now? I've been doing pregnancy prevention education since the early seventies, and we haven't stopped teenage pregnancy in [00:03:00] the United States. So I think it's a very important question to ask ourselves what works. What's effective. When a young woman gets pregnant, it doesn't end her life. She still has some options. When a young person gets HIV, it very well may end their life. So from my viewpoint, the stakes are higher when it comes to talking about HIV. [00:03:30] From the survey that Christine shared, it looked like a lot of you did something with HIV education with your young people. And even if you don't, my hunch is you have some beliefs about what works. I certainly did. I still do. But they change [00:04:00] before I tell you what we've found through some studies and research about what works. I'd like to survey you and see what you think works. And I'm going to do that by giving you a little quiz. What I'd like you to do is on a piece of scratch paper, just any piece of paper. Write the numbers one through [00:04:30] five. OK, Yeah. No. I'm going to read five different statements about HIV prevention education for young people. [00:05:00] After I read a statement, I want you to decide whether you think that statement is true. In other words, it's what works or false. It's what about doesn't work, is that clear? Any questions just write. True or false, you can put plus or minus you just nobody's going to correct this. This is kind of a game it's not a real test. OK statement number one. Giving young [00:05:30] people accurate information about the risks of HIV infection significantly reduces their unprotected sex. Let me read it again. Giving young people accurate information about the risks of HIV infection significantly reduces unprotected sex. [00:06:00] Do you think that's true or false? Ready for number two? I'll wait. You mhm? [00:06:30] Yeah, All right. Number two. HIV prevention education that teaches the important steps in decision making and the benefits or risks [00:07:00] of different types of sexual behaviour significantly reduces unprotected sex. Shorter, Fast, faster. You lost it. I'm sorry. The basically it is. If we teach kids about decision making, will that reduce their unprotected sex? [00:07:30] And we teach them about the consequences of unsafe sex? Does that reduce? They're engaging in unprotected sex. Significantly. Yeah. The first one was about information. The second one is about decision making. Yes, if we teach young people about decision making and the risks that are involved [00:08:00] in sexual behaviour, they will not have or significantly, they will reduce the amount of unprotected sex they actually engage in. So again, just to summarise, the first question was, If we give them information, they'll reduce their risks. The second one is if we give them decision making skills, they will reduce their risks. The third one is [00:08:30] if we teach them comprehensively about health and about sexuality that will reduce their risks. We really teach a broad programme that will reduce their risks. A engaging in unprotected sex [00:09:00] Yeah, the fourth one. Most HIV prevention programmes to be effective need to be at least 10 sessions long. In other words, if you were teaching in a classroom, you'd need 10 class periods like, say, [00:09:30] 50 minutes to really change kids' behaviour and the last one not ready? Sure. Um HIV prevention programmes need to last at least [00:10:00] 10 class sessions to change behaviour, Kids' behaviour and the last one HIV prevention programmes have been more effective at getting kids to use condoms than in getting kids to delay having sex. [00:10:30] We've been more successful at getting kids to use condoms than to delay intercourse. Think that's true or false? You doing that? [00:11:00] HIV prevention programmes have been more successful at getting students to use condoms than to delay beginning to have sex or the onset of intercourse. We're more successful getting them to protect themselves than we are getting them to abstain. That's another way to say it. OK, now let's see how you did. [00:11:30] Well, everybody, stand up. Yeah, Bye. OK, look at your piece of paper and count the number of true statements. You have the number of true statements. [00:12:00] If you had five true statements, sit down. If you had five true statements, sit down. If you had four true statements, sit down. OK? If you had three true statements, sit down. [00:12:30] If you have two true statements, sit down. If you have one true statement, sit down and those that are standing have no true statements. You passed. All of those statements were false. Thank you. [00:13:00] All of those statements were false, but so you don't feel stupid? I believed a lot of those statements also, and the last 20 years conducted education programmes based on believing those statements were true. However, in the last five years or so, we've started to do some research [00:13:30] to see what really makes a difference. What works? What changes kids behaviour And what we found out is that information does not change kids' behaviour. In fact, you heard Christina say that kids are getting tired of hearing information about HIV. [00:14:00] They think they know it all. Already. Decision making skills DOESn't CHANGE kids' BEHAVIOUR You had a question. Oh, OK, I, I I'll go on to all of them. I'll tell you, it doesn't. We thought if we taught kids how to make healthy decisions, they would act in their own best interest, right? But look at other [00:14:30] health behaviours like wearing seat belts. Now, I don't know about your country if you're outside the US. But in this country, there's been a big campaign to get people to use seat belts. They finally had to pass laws to make people do it. They didn't voluntarily, even though they had [00:15:00] lots of information that it could save your life. So if we as adults have information about things that will make us more healthy and we don't act on it, why would we think kids would? It doesn't mean they don't need information they do. It's not the only thing they need. And I'll tell you a little bit [00:15:30] more about that in a minute. Also, if we teach things comprehensively, if we teach about sexuality, relationships, decision making assertiveness or saying no kids learn a lot of good things. It doesn't mean they protect themselves. [00:16:00] So those programmes are very important. They just don't protect kids against HIV. I'm going to skip the question about 10 sessions for a few minutes. I'll come back to that. It's false, but I'll come back to that. And in fact, in the United States we've been more successful at getting kids who delay starting to have sex than we have been at getting them to use protection. [00:16:30] That the opposite of what I said is true and more about um so I don't think so. I think what we're finding is that if we can get to kids at a younger age before they start having sex, um, seventh grade, eighth grade 0, 13, 14. Thank you. Sure, [00:17:00] I'm sorry. The question was, what wasn't it a factor of religion, that it's easier to get kids to delay having sex? I don't think that's true. It really has more to do with. It's easier to get somebody not to ever start something like smoking than to get them to stop, and it's the same thing with sex. It's a lot easier to convince somebody to delay starting [00:17:30] to have sex than to stop once they start. There are a couple of questions, um, through me, they [00:18:00] need available. The question is, do I agree that if kids are going to have sex, condoms should be available? And absolutely, I'm not saying we shouldn't teach about protection. I'm just saying we haven't been very successful at getting kids to use it. And I'm going to talk a little bit today about what we know about what may move us to be more successful. There was, yes, [00:18:30] right interaction for many years, and the figures of the serve us and more and more simply, and three years of the terms of and I hope today is that in France the statement is that in France they're finding that kids are more likely to [00:19:00] use condoms and protection than to delay intercourse. That isn't true in the United States. Not it's not true. Where not in Africa. Oh, South Africa. Yeah, What I'm gonna say to you today is really about the United States. I'm going to give you some time at the end of my talk to really talk about what this means for your country. Because [00:19:30] it is different. And if there are any tape recorders on, I'll give you some of my biases about the United States, and that is that we are very what must say. Yes, there is sex education in some of the schools in the United States. What that means can be anything from talking [00:20:00] about puberty, talking about menstrual periods and that kind of thing to talking about using birth control or condoms. But in this country, we give mixed messages about sex. That isn't true. [00:20:30] In some other countries, the mixed message goes, something like this. Sex sells. It sells everything from cars to laundry soap. Kids see sex and advertising about sex everywhere, and they see it's fun. It's something people should want to do. It makes you glamorous. [00:21:00] It makes you desirable. But wait till you're married. That's the mixed message. In the United States, the average age for somebody to get married is 24 years of age. So what we say to kids is here all about this wonderful thing called Sex and start having sexual feelings about 13 or 14. [00:21:30] But wait 10 years. I think people in the United States are confused and we don't give a clear message. And in fact that's a very good into my next piece, which is [00:22:00] what does work and giving a clear, focused message seems to work. Let me back up a minute before I tell you more about that and say how we came to know that about three years ago. The centres for Disease Control was very [00:22:30] interested in this question about what works, and they pulled together a panel of researchers and experts in sexuality education, and they had them search the literature to see what studies have been done [00:23:00] that show we were successful in getting kids to use safe sex practises or not to have sex at all. This panel reviewed all the literature and all the studies, and they identified five characteristics of effective programmes. I've got a slide. [00:23:30] Let's see if I can get this to work. Ah, OK. You've got a packet on your chair with a purple cover. In that packet is a copy of these slides that I will be showing you. Yeah, Yeah. Oh! [00:24:00] In addition, at the back of that packet is the article that was written by the researchers that did this study Basically what they found were there were five characteristics or five things very successful [00:24:30] HIV prevention programme needed to have in order to either delay get kids who delay starting to have sex or to get them to use protection. They looked at both things because we know both things are important in the United States. Most surveys show that for [00:25:00] students who are 13 to 15, somewhere between 30 50% of them are having sex. So even if we want them to delay and we give that message, we can't ignore that a good portion of them are not. We have to talk about protection. So these are the five things now, this don't get too confused by this grid. Let me tell you what the [00:25:30] five things are. I have some more technology here. Let's see if I can use it. Maybe, maybe not. Oh, I have. The first is narrowly focused Goal. That's what I said to you about giving a clear message. We need to have a clear, focused message. I'll tell you about some of those messages might be in a minute. The other thing we've learned [00:26:00] in the United States is that There's this whole behaviour theory called social learning theory that's really about believing you can do something, and programmes need to teach kids that they can do something and get them to believe it. I'll say more about that in a minute. The other one is, and that's these [00:26:30] three things right here is that there needs to be content but not only teaches information. Information is important, but that also looks at the social pressures and pere norms that students have now. This is especially important to your culture. [00:27:00] The information about HIV is the same worldwide. We know how people get it and how they don't get it. That but the types of pressures and the norms. What people believe is going on is true is different in different cultures, whether you're in the United States, in France, in South [00:27:30] Africa, in Thailand, kids experience pressures around sexuality. Some of them may be not to have sex, but they experience pressure both internal, because their hormones are starting to activate and external from their friends and the culture around them. The last content that's important [00:28:00] is that kids get the skills to protect themselves. It's not enough to give him the information or talk about the pressure they need to be able to do something about it, Just like it wouldn't be enough to tell kids. Car accidents kill people, and seatbelts can protect your life [00:28:30] but not show them how to use a seat belt. It's a pretty simple example, but makes sense right. The skills I'm talking about really have to do with first refusal skills, being able to say no to sex when they don't want to have sex. [00:29:00] And secondly, to use protection not only how to use it, but how to talk to your partner about using it when you do have sex. The programmes that have been studied in the United States that have worked have these four elements narrow. Focus, goal. They use the social learning theory [00:29:30] they have. Actually, it's five, these three types of content, and when they deliver this content, they make sure that the message is clear. The message about information, the message about social pressures, the message about skills that it's audience appropriate both age wise and, um, content wise [00:30:00] that the learning is interactive and I'll say a little bit more about that in a minute and that the kids personalise it. Now where does the quilt fit in all of this? You're here to talk about the quilt? Well, I think Christina said it really well. The quilt motivates. It gets kids attention. [00:30:30] It makes them feel vulnerable. Adolescents usually don't feel very vulnerable. Once we get their attention, they are more likely to hear us when we talk about these other things. The Quil can be used to talk about information about risk. It can [00:31:00] be used to talk about the pressures and norms. It can be used to help kids feel vulnerable. It motivates them to use the skills we're teaching them. The last thing that this study found out that was very important was in the bottom bar, and that's teacher training [00:31:30] or educator training. In the United States, teachers, when they go to college usually don't get any training in how to talk about sexuality to their students. And it's hard for them the first time they have to say Penis in front of the classroom. They may die of embarrassment. [00:32:00] They need to understand how to teach this in a way that kids can hear and a lot of teachers need training to help them do that well in the United States, CDC has identified three [00:32:30] programmes right now that work and they're recommending that schools in this country use those programmes. I don't know if these programmes will work in your culture at all but just so you know what they are, I've put them up here on the table. They're all for high school kids right now and they're searching for more. [00:33:00] And a one page information sheet about these three programmes will be on the back table when you leave telling you the name, how much they cost or you can get them if you're interested. The three programmes are get real about AIDS postponing or I'm sorry, reducing the risk and be proud, be responsible. [00:33:30] Another programme that I didn't include because it doesn't address HIV is called postponing sexual involvement. I want to talk about each one of these five characteristics a little bit more and share with you how these programmes carry [00:34:00] out that characteristic. The first characteristic is a narrowly focused goal. It feels like there are three options when we talk about HIV. Postponing sexual involvement focuses on [00:34:30] postponing sexual involvement until you're older. That's its focus. That programme is taught 7th, 8th grade. What did you change to that? Those getting aid are all the question is, what do you say to a kid who says But [00:35:00] it's older people getting AIDS, not us. It's a good question. What do some of you say when you hear that question? Does anybody have? Yeah, and a you tell me there. I'm sorry, I can't hear you. [00:35:30] Uh, this gentleman was suggesting that this is a good place for the quilt to come in that when you show that young people are getting AIDS and are dying like that quilt sample from Dwayne that we saw on the slide, kids start to believe it. Having people come in and talk [00:36:00] about people that are infected with HIV talk about how it's affected their lives and especially if they are people that got infected when they were really young. It's a good way to answer that question. Yeah, America become cover. [00:36:30] And for And where are you from? In Maine, There's a programme called Listen to the students. Actually, I do. I have heard of it. I'm sorry. I have, uh that they're doing in Maine, The state of Maine and it's kids with HIV. It's so dangerous. Ah. Huh. It's a 26 week course that [00:37:00] kids in Maine, or at least in their school system, are required to take one of the problems I find in education. And this goes back to the 10 session question. You need 10 sessions. A lot of teachers say I don't have it. There's so much I have to teach. How can I devote 10 sessions to this class? [00:37:30] OK, OK, ok. Yes. Um, yes. Well, thank you for actually moving. The question is, is there a difference between what the statistics say kids are using and delaying [00:38:00] sex? And what I actually think is happening? I don't really have any way of knowing when we do research. We try to account for all the guess work through statistics and statistical operations on the data. I would just be guessing if I answered. Yeah, um, don't you think that, um you cannot tell kids do not [00:38:30] have sex like you can't say. Do not drink and drive. You have to say this is your choice of choice, HIV. The question is, do I think that we can't say to Kids don't have sex the way we can say don't drink and drive I have two reactions. [00:39:00] One is what I know as a professional, and one is what I feel as a person. What I know as a professional is, in fact, giving that single clear message wait to have sex seems to be effective with some kids, so I don't want to throw that message out. And that's the professional reason that it works. The personal reason [00:39:30] is I don't think 13 year olds should be having sex are in. I know I'm saying that's my personal, Um, personally, I think it's too young for 13 year olds to have sex. I'm not going to deny that they're doing it, and I'm not going to judge them for doing it. But in the United States, I think [00:40:00] they're a large body of adults that would agree with my feeling and because we do know from research that giving that message may protect kids from HIV STD pregnancy, emotional consequences. I don't want to abandon that message. It isn't the only message, though. [00:40:30] And if you look up here at the other programmes like RT R or reducing the risk. The clear message goes beyond delayed sex to delay sex. And when you start to have sex, protect yourself. Yeah. Not assume that is just [00:41:00] hi to do that, Hm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. The question is, none of these things are these things or assuming that sex is penetration and that why aren't we teaching kids all the other things that we can do that aren't penetration. And in fact, in some places in the United States they [00:41:30] call that out, of course, versus intercourse. We do teach that how much you teach, whether you teach that that's holding hands and kissing or whether you teach that's mutual masturbation is very controversial. Remember the United States? We have this very mixed message. Sex is everywhere, but nobody is supposed to do [00:42:00] it until they get married. And we know that's not true. We know people don't believe everybody believes that, but there are some people we're talking about, the public schools. We have to think about parents and what they want their young people to hear also, and we have to balance that between what we think [00:42:30] is real and what parents the messages parents want? Yeah, stay. Hm asked. Right? Yeah, that thanks. [00:43:00] You have to. The question is, do I think it's the same for people that are having sex with people of the same gender? Or is it different? And that in Guatemala they're just barely beginning to talk about heterosexual sex, let alone sex with same gender partners [00:43:30] in the United States? There is a tremendous amount of homophobia, and it is pretty taboo in a most schools to talk about sex with somebody of the same gender. It is difficult to address that directly so far, what we've done, and I'm not sure it's successful. I'm just talking politics [00:44:00] now with you is that we've tried to come at it indirectly. By that I mean, we try not to say girlfriend boyfriend. We try to say, partner in teacher training. We try to let teachers know that there's a good chance that 10% of the students [00:44:30] in their classroom, maybe gay or lesbian and the teacher trainings that we do at ETR. We often have a panel of young people that are gay and lesbian. Come talk about their experiences in high school, how painful it was to be gay or lesbian, I'd be going to high school [00:45:00] and have nobody acknowledge that was even a possibility. And there are often people with tears in their eyes by the time that panel is over. But it's just a beginning. Most schools are not ready to come out and have open discussions about same sex practises. So [00:45:30] in that way, I'm not sure we're a lot different than Guatemala. Yeah, my that you are your message, but only also, of course. All right. I didn't hear the very first part of what you said. My feeling is that you are for the [00:46:00] Yes, yes, The the statement was that we are accommodating our message not only for the kids, but for the parents and the community surrounding it, and that is true. And I'm not always comfortable with that. But I know that if I say what I'd really like to say, I may never get back in that school. So I compromise and I try to give kids resources [00:46:30] where they may go to get help to talk to some adult outside the school. Now, San Francisco Unified School District is a little bit different where you are just because they're more advanced and they do talk more openly about some of this in San Francisco. It is the exception, not the rule. There was a question. Yeah. Yeah, [00:47:00] Well, uh, 76, when you're talking about sexual relation. Mhm. Did you have and have go? Well, [00:47:30] I agree. The statement was, When you talk about sexuality, you need to talk about pleasure. And personally, I agree professionally. That is very controversial. We don't want to tell kids in the United States. It feels good. They might go do it now. I'm saying that's a joke. I mean, they hear everywhere, it feels good, but we are very two face. Do you know what that means in this culture? About [00:48:00] sex in our culture, in the United States? Now these little boxes, you aren't getting the overall you're not getting what's in the programme. I haven't gotten that far yet. I'm just trying to give you some broad categories here about what works, and I would say we need to talk about the pleasure of sex with kids. But if I'm really looking at preventing HIV, my [00:48:30] hunch is that they already know that message. But it feels good. They hear that enough. What? I want to make sure that I teach the message in a compassionate way about protection and about waiting for sex until it's right for you. I don't need to teach that message in a way that makes them bad for wanting to have sex or [00:49:00] the pleasure of sex in the United States, we say we want to teach HIV prevention in a sex positive way. But it's very difficult for me in an hour to go into great depth about programmes and what that would look like if you're interested. One option is to seek out [00:49:30] one of these three programmes that I talked about and see how they did it. Yes, yes. In the United States, there's been a lot of peer education programmes tried and in fact the postponing sexual involvement programme use piers. Research has not shown that that's been more effective than an compassionate teacher [00:50:00] teaching it. That doesn't mean I wouldn't do it. But what I was asked to talk to you today about what we know works. This is like the bare bones. It doesn't mean you can't do a lot more, but in my 20 years of experience when I spend a lot of time on information and decision making right, [00:50:30] it wasn't changing kids behaviour, and I think that is the bottom line, especially when it comes to HIV. We've got to get kids protecting themselves. I only have about 15 more minutes. Let me just go through a couple of other slides quickly, and then I'll just answer your questions. [00:51:00] That was about narrow focus that it needs to have a narrow focus, and the narrow focus is abstinence or protection or both. Social learning theory says that people have to believe they can act on the information they have, so it isn't enough just to tell kids information. We have to make sure they have the belief in themselves that they can [00:51:30] actually carried out. That belief happens when four things are present. They understand what must be done. They understand they either need to not have sex or use protection or not use drugs. We haven't said a lot about drugs here. They need to be motivated. They need to believe that life is worth living, that in fact they don't [00:52:00] want to get HIV. There's a reason not to get HIV. For some kids in this country where there's a lot of violence, they see people around them being shot. They don't believe they're going to live anyway, So why should they worry about HIV? That may be true in your cultures, too, in your country. So we have to think about that. They have to believe that what you're teaching them is effective, for example, that condoms really [00:52:30] do prevent HIV. And there's been a lot of controversy in this culture about whether they do or not magazines and what we call the tabloid newspapers run big headlines that say condoms don't work, people get afraid, and then they need to believe they can use everything you've taught them. They can put it into action. [00:53:00] And that's where Practise comes in, practise in role plays and play acting, saying No asking your partner to use condoms. Think I'm going to skip over this just because I think it's relatively clear that we need to give information, [00:53:30] talk about the pressures and give kids the skills. I'm gonna skip this, too, just to let you, um, ask questions. I think more. Are there more questions about effective programmes? Yeah, back there? No. Yeah. What do you make this, uh, when we started. [00:54:00] This is the $64,000 question. The question is, at what age is Should kids stop delaying? And is it OK for them to have sex? Um, the reason I don't know if you know that joke. The $64,000 question. There was a quiz show TV programme years ago, and if they got the answer right, they got $64,000. [00:54:30] So that's what I mean when I say this is a $64,000 question, I don't think I'm going to win it, though. It's a hard question. I could tell you what I believe for my Children and my family, but I'm not about to say what everybody else should do. And one of the things in sex education we try to do is involve [00:55:00] parents and get them telling their own Children what their family beliefs are about. That that's the emotional side of it. The medical side is that we know that when young people start having sex at a very early age, they [00:55:30] are more likely to become infected with an STD. Young women are much more likely to get pregnant. Young women are more likely to get cervical cancer in older age, so there are some strong medical reasons. The young people 13 14 15, [00:56:00] should probably not be having sex. What I say to kids is you need to think about what your family believes and what you believe about, what kind of relationship sex belongs in. And and do [00:56:30] you feel better about yourself and the relationship and your partner after you've had sex? Those are questions I pose to kids to get them to look at that question for themselves. Yeah, how do you deal with trust? [00:57:00] The question is, what do I do about with the trust so that we talk to kids about trusting a partner and knowing they're not going out and getting it on the side within the limits of a lot of the sex education that we have time to teach in the United States? We don't do a lot with that. Unfortunately, a lot of what we have time to do [00:57:30] is to deal with facts, to get kids realising the risks. But we don't have a lot of time to talk about good relationships and what that means. And I think that's sad. Yeah, that's the best. I can answer that. At this point. If I were teaching a class and it sounds like maybe in Maine they have the luxury of this [00:58:00] and I had 26 weeks, I would talk about relationships. What are good friendships, then what does romance mean? What does sex mean in the United States? We don't address those things very much in schools. Yes. Are you talking about [00:58:30] a lot of the other things? That is just a general. And so the question is that I keep talking as if I'm talking about sex mean intercourse and genital contact or gentle penetration. And wouldn't it be more effective if I talked about it in the bigger hole? [00:59:00] And you know what the truth is right now? The research shows no. The answer to that is no. Even though philosophically, I believe sex should be taught in that bigger context. It isn't what works. What works is getting down to the specifics about how you get HIV, how to protect yourself, and you get HIV by having genital contact and how to prevent [00:59:30] that contact through condoms or delay of sex now many programmes. If there's time, they'll talk about other ways to feel intimate and to get physical pleasure. And some people have called that out, of course. And I'm saying, If you have time to do that, do that, That's wonderful. We haven't done [01:00:00] any research to see if we taught a class where we talked about outer course as options and we taught a class where we didn't if the kid's behaviour would be different. What we do know is when we give a direct, clear message about delaying sex or using condoms, we seem to be effective in changing kids' behaviour. It is when I say that I'm not [01:00:30] saying forget the other stuff, but I'm focusing on what we know works in the United States because there's such limited time to address this. In my mind, it's important to focus on what works because lives are at stake. Sure, question is, in many places in the world, young people may not have a choice about whether or not they become sexually active. [01:01:00] That somebody makes that decision for them, especially young women, and I agree I don't have good answers for that. It isn't something that I think you can effectively address in a school. I think it's something that has to be addressed in the community and the culture doesn't work. Um, the reason I think you can't address it in the school is [01:01:30] that at least in this culture, when young women are sexually abused, they really don't have a choice. They can't get out of it. So you can't tell the young girl we just do something different. She's already victimised. The only way to make that kind of a change is to begin to change the community and the culture, and you may start with one small group that starts to show that that's abusive. [01:02:00] I don't have easy answers because I don't know your culture, but we can't do victim blaming here. We can't make the problem to fix for the victim. They can't fix it. We, as the adults have to take responsibility to begin to change in that culture. In this culture, we've made some of those changes. They are very slow. Sexual abuse still happens. [01:02:30] It's estimated that one in 10 girls are sexually abused in this culture or 17, depending on the statistics. You're reading. But we're starting to speak out in this culture to say it's not OK. We started to do educational programmes in communities and schools, saying it's not OK. It's a beginning. It's a very difficult problem. I have one more minute. [01:03:00] Um, let's see. Let me take this gentleman here. Oh, good. This has to do with when you're teaching. Oh, the question is, how do I define skill level when it's audience appropriate? You need to know the age group of your kids and the emotional maturity of your kids. And that's what I mean. [01:03:30] Well, thank you. I know that sex education HIV prevention is a tremendous challenge. It's a challenge here in the United States, and it's a challenge in your culture. And I wish you good luck. And hopefully we will be able to continue to share with each other what we know about what works. Thank you.

IRN: 536
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/international_aids_memorial_quilt_conference_high_school_programme.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004206
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089500
TITLE: National High School Quilt programme - AIDS Memorial Quilt Conference (1995)
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INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1990s; AIDS Memorial Quilt; AIDS Memorial Quilt conference 1995; Christina Sunley; HIV / AIDS; NAMES Project; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; San Francisco; San Jose; United States of America; education; health; youth
DATE: 10 March 1995
YEAR: 1995
LOCATION: San Francisco, San Francisco, United States of America
CONTEXT: The national High School Quilt programme co-ordinator from the NAMES Project in San Francisco gives a presentation, along with a group of San Jose high school students.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Our next panel is a quilt display team that participated in the national High School quilt programme nearby in a city called San Jose. They've travelled from Foothill High School today to be here along with our national High school quilt programme coordinator. And she's the one who tries to keep track of all these zillions of schools and make sure they have a successful display. [00:00:30] It's an honour to be here and to listen to the last panel of educators. I was struck by the similarity and a lot of your questions. Even though we may have some more access here in the United States, we still have very similar issues to grapple with the questions about how to get around parents, [00:01:00] how to make parents involved and how to access schools. We have those questions too, and that's something that I work on daily. I am going to very briefly give you an overview of the programme. The nutshell of the programme. Christina has told you a lot about the theory and [00:01:30] and some of the activities that we do. I'm going to describe the general outline of the high school programme in 15 minutes or less a small feat for a programme that takes three months preparation and results in a 2 to 5 day display. The basic structure of the programme is meant to be a guide for the schools. [00:02:00] It leaves them enough flexibility to be creative in designing a display that will be the right fit for the school. Be it big or small, rural or urban, culturally similar or diverse. The overhead is in your handbooks that are in your, um, pack your conference binders. It's a guide that we [00:02:30] sent out to the school with their application, and it describes the breakdown of the the team I'm going to briefly touch on each point of the team. But just emphasise that the most important part of this display is the student involvement in all aspects of it from the beginning, when they begin to plan to bring the quilt [00:03:00] to their school team leadership. I'm always in constant contact with the staff team leader. I work as a coach as well as the coordinator of the programme, and I can help the team with ideas to maximise the effectiveness of the programme can help problem solve and help them with logistical problems [00:03:30] Ultimately, however, I end up learning more from the schools, probably than they do from me. It's a reciprocal educational experience. The staff team leader Roles vary from school to school. It is usually the person who initiated the application. It could be the health teacher, the school nurse, the [00:04:00] drama teacher, the social studies teacher. Even in one school, the principal was the the staff team leader. Because this programme touches on so many topics, so many subjects it can be used in so many topics. In schools, any staff team, any staff team leader can be a teacher from any part of the school. Recruiting students [00:04:30] also depends very much on the school. Some have used already existing peer educators. Some students that work on the quilt display are part of student government. One school we did this last semester had students from the Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and questioning group. It's very rare that a school has such a group, but the school was able to some schools [00:05:00] put out a call for volunteers and get a cross section of students from all different parts of the school. The student and staff team leader worked together to oversee the quilt display team activities obtain approval for the display. Then they can send US panel requests and coordinate the rest of their team. We try to send them panels from their area [00:05:30] panels of youth of women, um, panels that reflects the cultural diversity of the school. And if they know of somebody in their school community, we will try to send that panel If there is a panel. Education is the next aspect of the team. The education team helps link the quilt display to the other [00:06:00] prevention activities. We see the quilt as the focal point, and there should ideally be other HIV prevention activities happening during that week of displays. Some of the activities that schools have done include HIV positive speakers, community health educators, teen theatre, several schools I worked with, wrote and produced plays dealing with [00:06:30] teens and AIDS, and I noticed that the students were very impacted by those productions. Uh, other things that schools have done are showing videos, reading writings by people with HIV and AIDS and art projects. The other important aspect of the education team is to review the names, project education [00:07:00] materials, which you have in your binder um they distribute them to the teachers and ensure that they are used briefly. The materials include the lesson guide, the education guide student guides for each student that sees the quilt and videos, voices of the quilt Speak my name and common threads. We [00:07:30] also send the book of letters written by panel makers called A Promised to Remember, and we send a Signature Square, which is a blank 12 by 12 that the schools can put their own logo on, and the students can record their reactions and comments after seeing the quilt. We will put a signature square out after this session that you can view from Foothill High School, [00:08:00] um, log, logistics and security. The logistics team sets up the signature square and coordinates receiving and returning the quilt. We provide the schools with a detailed installation guide. I just want to say I get more questions about how to hang the quilt than anything else during a display. People [00:08:30] are very nervous, but when we finally talk about it, it turns out to be very, uh not such a problem. We have We have no problems at all with vandalization or the quilt has not been hurt at all, despite the fact that we do not accompany the quilt to the schools. The logistic team also monitors [00:09:00] the quilt during the display. A lot of students can get involved in being security officers for the quilt. And, uh, that can be a real opportunity for students to be involved quickly. Public relations. Uh, this team is responsible for publicising the display, uh, recruiting volunteers to generate student and [00:09:30] teacher interest in seeing the quilt. Oftentimes, we'll use students who work on the school newspaper or in journalism classes. Um, we send a press packet from the names project and help them publicise panel making. Uh, this team coordinates the process of making a panel either in class or out of class. They coordinate [00:10:00] a public presentation and dedication of the new panels at the school. Then the panels would be sent back to us, and eventually those panels would be part of high school quilt displays. Panel making is one of the most significant activities related to the display. Students and staff coming together to make a panel can unite the school [00:10:30] community. I'm going to turn this over now that you have a basic understanding of our team to a high school. Did a quilt display this last spring. I'm really excited that they're here, and it will help you get a feeling for what happens at a school after they talk. I'd like to open it up for questions. You can ask them or myself welcome them, [00:11:00] and they will tell you about the display. Thank you. Good afternoon. My name is Rena Feleti. I'm a high school teacher in San Jose, about an hour from an hour to the south of San Francisco. Um, I come from the East Side Union High School District, which is a school district of 10 high schools. [00:11:30] Um, Foothill High School Today is the only school which brings a group of students to share their experience with you. Um, the students and I feel honoured to be in this position. And yet we also know that there are reasons important reasons why we were chosen to speak here today. Before I tell you about our personal experience with the quilt at the school, I [00:12:00] want you to know a little bit about some of the statistics about our student body. Foothill High School is a continuation high school. It's an alternative high school for students who are not having success at the other 10 schools in our school district. The district serves 22,000 students total, but [00:12:30] there are only 300 students at Foothill. It's a very special environment for them. 37% of our students are Hispanic, 25% are Asian, 20% are Caucasian, 9% are Filipino or Pacific islander, [00:13:00] 7% are African American and approximately 2% are native American. These statistics reflect the statistics of all of San Jose and of California. In the neighbourhoods where our schools reside, where our students reside. [00:13:30] Poverty overlaps with a number of other factors. These are a high frequency of adolescent births, late or no prenatal care, high tuberculosis rates, infant mortality and high rates of sexually transmitted [00:14:00] disease, as well as problems related to HIV and AIDS, drug and alcohol or violence related crimes and high high high school dropout. Over one third of the students at Foothill are teen parents. 45% of the student body has [00:14:30] a history with juvenile probation. 50% of the pregnant teens at Foothill by self report conceived while under the influence of alcohol or drugs. 85% of our students report problems of drugs and alcohol, [00:15:00] and 90% of our students and their families say that they need medical or social services. As our school learns about family wellness and as the families learn and the students learn about options for health and wellness, [00:15:30] the awareness of students and their families and therefore the larger community increases, and they begin to articulate their need to ask for what their options are. The AIDS The High school Quilt project, is one of the most powerful examples [00:16:00] of an answer to those families. Questions. Um, our project was part of all. 10 of the schools in our district, participated in the high school quilt project, Um, and was coordinated by a Central coordinating Committee today. The students from Foothill are just from one and the smallest of [00:16:30] the schools in the East Side district, and they will talk to you about the importance of their experience with the quilt. At Foothill, we organised a three week plan and programme of events. The first week was the introduction to the quilt before the quilt came to our campus. ASHA [00:17:00] just explained many of the activities, and we drew from all of the activities that were suggested by the um by the high school quilt programme. They included videos, photographs and at our school we developed a schoolwide lesson that was 90 minutes in duration, which all teachers [00:17:30] presented to all students at the same time. This served as an introduction to the quilts coming the next week. Week two was the quilt display week, the the five days when the quilt was actually at our campus. The quote was displayed with the help of students. [00:18:00] Classes visited the quilt at least twice. We included a panel of speakers from our campus, adults who had had experiences with HIV or AIDS in their own lives. These activities were designed to build empathy in students [00:18:30] and to provide them with first hand experience with people who had lived with AIDS and HIV. During the third week, we had our AIDS and HIV curriculum, which was developed by medical professionals and social service professionals on our campus. We also provided counselling and support for students [00:19:00] because we found that the quote brought out a lot of emotion and we wanted to be prepared to be able to handle that. We also gave plenty of time for follow up and closing activities. The remarkable success of the quilt project in our school was due to a number of factors which I will show you on the overhead. First [00:19:30] of all, we planned ahead. That's what you're doing now. Um, we had committees of staff members that looked at the curriculum provided by the quilt project. The second step was that we involved everyone. We divided all of the activities into tiny little pieces and we delegated them to [00:20:00] many different people so that everyone could feel involved to all of the adults and all of the students on our campus. The third step was that we took our time. We did not present all activities just when the quilt was on campus. We included a week before and a week after we went slowly with our educational programme, I suggest that highly [00:20:30] number four get personal. The speakers who came to talk to our students and the discussions that the students had were of highly personal nature. And for that reason for number five, you should expect emotion. It means that what it means by getting personal. Is that people who are HIV positive or who had family members or friends who had died of [00:21:00] AIDS or who were ill with AIDS? We were able to speak with students very clearly and openly and very honestly about the intimacy of their experience in a very personal way, not in an abstract way or in an academic way. Therefore, we expected emotion, and we got emotion, lots of mixed emotion on the part of the students. Number six, [00:21:30] the quilt itself nurtures empathy, acceptance and love. And in our environment, that's what we also did on May 9th 1995 at Foot Hills High School in East Jose, California We had a parents' night. We all. We all invited the parents of the students to come and visit our [00:22:00] school. At this parents night, we had a few of the panels from the AIDS quilt in our library, closer to the microphone, and it's just Pa. I'll stay here. I took my parents there first before I took them to any of my classrooms. The looks on their faces were looks of compassion and mostly looks of being very upset. [00:22:30] I knew it was going through their minds. How? How could this one teeny little, tiny little virus get into one person's body and spread and kill this many people? That's what was going through a lot of parents' minds. [00:23:00] Not only that, but how could it kill all those innocent Children? It could have been their Children, but thank God it wasn't but it could. Could have been. But it could be if they don't educate [00:23:30] and put their foot down about protection in the nineties, not only in the nineties, but forever. And they won't need to make a quilt one day for their child. The quilt to me was very compassionate and caring. [00:24:00] I thought that all those people cared enough for their loved ones, friends and family. Yeah, they love those people enough to take the risk and show their feelings to the public and to the world. My feelings about AIDS is that I'm scared. [00:24:30] I'm scared for my life and for my young community. That's good. I'm scared because this whole AIDS project has scared me into having safer sex, protecting myself and my loved ones from this deadly disease and concentrating on a safe future for [00:25:00] me and my future Children. The quilt is life to me. It shows the life of all those people and how they lived To me. They're all still alive, not just in our hearts but in that quote and that quilt will never die. [00:25:30] I think AIDS is the number one killer among America and the world. But I'm not the only one who thinks that Children, teenagers and adults die every day of this horrible death. It's time in the world, especially the teenagers, to wake up and realise we have to [00:26:00] protect ourselves. We're doing this to ourselves. We're spreading this disease and it's time for us to start. It's time for us to stop the death and the misery. If we stop that, [00:26:30] we'll get life going again for the Children of our future and for the future that we all want. Thank you. That's OK. It just start like right. The quilt to me [00:27:00] is something important because it shows people aids awareness. Oh, you need to speak a little bit louder. Yeah, right. It shows people that HIV and AIDS is not stopping. The quilt continues to grow every day. It's not stopping or slowing down. It's growing very rapidly, [00:27:30] right? And the quilt makes people aware from all over the world that HIV and AIDS is out there. And the only way it's going to stop or slow down is if every single individual gets educated enough to know how you could get AIDS and how you can't [00:28:00] and all the different ways to protect yourself against the HIV or AIDS and a good and a good way to start out is learning about the quilt. The quilt is what opened my eyes to a. When the quilt came to our school, it was displayed in the library. [00:28:30] When I walked in the library, I was amazed to what I seen. The thing that got my attention the most was a quilt of a little girl, maybe somewhere in between the age of 2 to 5 years old, and by seeing that it made me realise this could seriously happen to me. [00:29:00] So when we begin to learn about this in class, I was more focused. I wanted to know more. I wanted to be educated more than the little I already knew, and I just hope that everyone can have a chance to be educated for a better future [00:29:30] for all of us. Thank you. Good afternoon, everybody. [00:30:00] When I first seen the quilt, I walked into my school library in big letters. In the first panel I seen was a person with the exact same name as me. It shocked me with amazement. Hey, happiness [00:30:30] and sadness. The reason for my sadness was because of all those panels that went on for miles, which meant all of those thousands of panels mean thousands of people who have died from AIDS. [00:31:00] My amazement was basically the size, the time, the effort and all the love put into this gigantic quilt. My overwhelming happiness was because of all these people [00:31:30] that will be remembered because of one man who put all this together. This quote gave these people's families a chance to show their love and hurt in a positive way. [00:32:00] It gave them a chance to say, Remember me and remember me in a good way and most of all, remember it does happen. So remember to protect yourselves. Last of all the reasons for my heart was for all those families [00:32:30] and loved ones who had to endure all the hurt and pain the way they had to have someone they cared about live and die with AIDS. AIDS is a reality. It hurts. [00:33:00] The feeling I got during our AIDS Awareness week was that all of this was a true hard hit on reality of AIDS closer to me, its dramatic effects on the people who are living and dying [00:33:30] or have died with AIDS for and the friends and family going through this with their loved one with AIDS. One of the activities the many activities I participated in was listening to a panel of speakers [00:34:00] who have AIDS or either had a loved one who has died from AIDS. The panel of speakers had a very emotional effect on me. A couple of people had someone die from it were people that are staff [00:34:30] at our school. Mrs. Young, who is a staff at Foothill and a very close acquaintance of mine, brought her niece, Kim, who has AIDS, to speak for us. [00:35:00] One person I could never imagine to know someone with AIDS. Kim had AIDS for several years without knowing and became pregnant and gave birth to a baby girl named Shayan. [00:35:30] Shayan was infected with AIDS since birth, Yes, but it was not found out till she was 1. 5 years old. That was later when she became very sick with pneumonia, vomiting and fever. That is, too. When [00:36:00] they found out her mother, Kim, had AIDS, as Kim and Miss Young continued to tell us, Cheyenne's condition progressed to the worst. I felt the hurt as their eyes filled with tears and voices cracked. [00:36:30] I looked around the room and I could see that my other fellow students were teary eyed and felt the hurt this mother felt for her daughter, [00:37:00] mainly because most of the girls in there had Children. Also, she continued to tell us how her daughter became well and then sick again. Finally, she got so ill [00:37:30] they had to send her to Stanford Hospital, where she would spend her last days. One of Cheyenne's interns, the little girl who had the night shift, took a liking to Cheyenne. [00:38:00] He knew how much she loved Barney and Cheetos that every other night he would bring her a Barney movie and a bag of Cheetos. Cheyenne was starting to get very ill. [00:38:30] She had external and internal bleeding from her bottom. Cheyenne, only four years old soon died at Stanford Hospital. The Shahan school. God, why you get taken care of school? Well, was it took a dramatic effect on all of us that we all [00:39:00] decided to make a quilt for her because she didn't have a quilt already. So we all, um, foothill students participated, and we made her a quilt. We brought it today. So to present to the names project to present to the names project. [00:39:30] Yes. Um, we also are foothill students. Um, we made a signature quilt and I wrote a poem on there dedicated to Cheyenne and all those who have died from AIDS. [00:40:00] And you guys could read it later over here, I think. Oh, you want me to read it too? OK, OK. In their eyes, I see them dying deep inside. I feel like crying Life was too short for them to go [00:40:30] now. Their dreams will never know. One precious thing they left behind was for us to be careful and use our mind. Thank you. [00:41:00] [00:41:30] Do we have time for a couple of questions or Yeah, OK. Um yeah, we have time for a couple right up front how his life to play and of those, like take kitchen showing World Series is awesome. OK, so [00:42:00] wanted to thank them for coming and taking the time to come and to thank the teacher for teaching for showing you how to how to work with the students. Thank you, Uh, from New Zealand. Bye. Yeah, I was wondering after you had seen the film talk to your friends and family about HIV and AIDS. Did you, um, [00:42:30] change their ideas? Yeah. Yes, yeah, I did talk to my aunt and my uncle and my father and friends, too. Like, we'll just bring it up, you know, and we'll talk about it. And, you know, we'll just talk about different and talk to them about the different ways you could get it and stuff. [00:43:00] Um, I bring my parents to see the quilt in the library as I did when I went in there, and I showed my mom the quilt with my name, and it was kind of shocking for her, and I think it both affected us a lot because at one time there was time for [00:43:30] us where she was dying of cancer. Sort of kind of similar. So that week was kind of hard for me because I knew how how it felt to live with somebody that was dying of something like a disease or something like that. So we talked about it a lot. Another question. Hi, I'm just trying to find out how much you knew before the field [00:44:00] Did you know how much you knew about AIDS for the field? You often talk about AIDS in the before. The question is, how much? Before you saw the quilt, how much did you talk about AIDS with your parents and talk about sex with your parents and just know about AIDS? Well, really, I never [00:44:30] really talked about it with my parents. All I really knew was to use a condom. And that's how my parents really ever told me. And I didn't really know all the different ways you could get AIDS and how you can't. I mostly just thought you could get AIDS just by sleeping with the person that had AIDS without a condom. But after you know the we did the topic on AIDS, I learned like all all the ways you could get it, and it just made me feel more like I just feel more secure that I know the way I could [00:45:00] get it. And like the way I can't and I know the different ways to protect myself. I was I always talked to my parents about, um, sex and AIDS and transmitted diseases because I was curious. And plus, I was, as I said before, I was scared because I didn't wanna die of something that was so cruel. [00:45:30] It's not cool in that sense, but it's cool for for a young person like my age, like a teenager, because we have so much to live for in life. And if you die of something like that, it's just really sad because you haven't lived life to the fullest. Yes. Question [00:46:00] ask do you want How do you hear the colours of saying Oh, you know? Hm? The The question is, um uh, were you asked before the quilt came? Do you want it to come? And the second part was, how do you deal with, [00:46:30] um uh-huh, right? Right. The feeling of Oh, it's another AIDS talk. It's another, um, presentation. Oh, how boring. Right. Um, they're from a different programme. I'm from another programme and the programme that we had is we had a we had just had one week where we were discussing of everything on the on the world, like the [00:47:00] bombings and all that and one of our week was one of the weeks that we had was to discuss. Basically it's awareness and we were asked if we wanted we wanted to do it And, um because some of some of us it was harder for us to do that like there was one activity we participated in that was had [00:47:30] to do with that. That quilt was, um we wrote four cards of the most important people in our life, four things we like to do the most for prize possessions. And they said it was a really emotional activity. I. I didn't really believe it, but when I participated in it, a lot of the students participated. Even though they didn't they they thought it wasn't all that, but they participated in it and [00:48:00] they told us to picture ourselves being a person with AIDS and picture ourselves in a safe place where we felt safe all the time. My safe place was in my room. where I could talk to my mom and slowly they said that our disease was getting worse. So we had to take one of each of those things away the most important things and so that [00:48:30] we we ended up with two people and two things we liked. And then they just came around and they just took one without even asking us. They just took it and I started to cry. You know, I didn't think I was going to get emotional. I started to cry because they took my mom and they left me with my son. And I wanted to be with my mom because I know what she would go through. My son is too young to understand. So a lot of a lot of the students got emotional and they they didn't say, Oh, I don't want to participate and [00:49:00] they didn't. The teachers didn't have to ask us because then we knew, you know, it was it was reality. It meant something, and it was just I don't know. I can't explain it. The activity was just so intense and deep what we did. So basically we just all volunteered to do. It was something that we needed. We felt we needed to do no more question be Oh, I'm sorry. Hold on just a second. I'm sorry. When we started [00:49:30] the topic about the AIDS, they did ask us if we wanted the quote to come and, well, most of the people in our class said, Yeah, that we didn't want it to come because it looked interesting to do. And like, I never really heard nobody saying something about how another AIDS talk or something. Because I know it's just something you know you want to know because you know, it's a matter of life or death and most people do want to know about it. Not things. Well, the ones that they said that they never [00:50:00] really said nothing. They just kind of like, you know, ignored it. They didn't really pay attention. And, you know, and I think most of the people, the students, that may be thought that way when they went in Well, because I kind of thought that way to another AIDS talk. When I got in there and I seen all those quilts, it just just hit me. It was just like God, this these are these are each lives. They're lives. I mean, that's something you're not gonna wanna say. Oh, another aids. Talk it to reality. It makes you think [00:50:30] it makes you think more when I see those. Especially when I see my name up there. My name is not very common. I see my name. And I was like, Oh, my God, What if that was me? One more question, Val, I don't know when I was. [00:51:00] The question is that the prevailing attitude is that AIDS is a gay disease and and the question is, did that change at all? Or how did that? How was that at your school? Say the question. The question is that most people think of AIDS as a as a gay disease. That's where where the question was asked from North. Carol, You want to say the question again, Val Gene that [00:51:30] from being from North Carolina? Yeah. Got that? Yeah. A lot of the students in my programme that I'm in. They didn't I never heard anything like that. They never most of all, they they thought it was from like people that share needles like shooting up and from unprotected [00:52:00] sex, unprotected sex but I never heard them say anything about just gay people have it or anything like that. We discussed that, but it wasn't like a big issue, like people felt that strongly about it. And I think when they went in to see the quilt they seen, you know, Children there. I mean, it's not. They unlikely could see, you know, Children, too. It's not. It's not just certain people certain it's happened to anybody. They could see that. And every time they went to see the quilt, we always seen something different. [00:52:30] You know, the same quilt. We'd come back and we'd see something different in there. When I was younger, I kind of thought like that because growing up like this was like an elementary. That's all you really heard about was like people talking about gays having aids and stuff. But then after as I got older, I got more educated and knowing about what AIDS really was, and it's just not gays. I get it. I started to know that anybody could really get it. Do we have time for one? [00:53:00] Oh, OK, go ahead. I'm just speaking for me, but I feel like you're speaking to other people here, too. I've been for many, many years, and her on for longer wondering, uh, for being here today for me is one of the most intense presentations I've heard. You put things in a way that touches my heart and gives me fresh [00:53:30] eyes to look at this. I want to thank you very much. Uh, it's it keeps me in the Dr We are the voices that have very well. I think that I have one more thing to say and about, um, about kids about, you know, the way they say about, um, the reason why they don't protect themselves. They have have, like, little reasons and, like the reason is like some reason that [00:54:00] I could think of is like parts like, you know, when they see the person they're thinking. Oh, look at this person. You know, she looks nice. She looks like, you know, she she wouldn't have it. So, you know, And you know, they think why? Why stop in the middle of, you know, having doing it and, you know, just to put a condom on. But then when you really realise, you know, it's just make it a natural thing, you know, make it natural, You know, just gives the condom, make it natural, and it'll be different. But, you know, when you meet a natural person, like, you know, like, if I were to meet her or her, I would think, you know, I would look at them. I would talk [00:54:30] to them over the phone and stuff. I would think like, Oh, you know, I don't think this person has AIDS, you know? And then I wouldn't really be looking at it that way, You see? But you shouldn't be thinking that that person has AIDS. It should just be a natural thing for you to do. Just use a condom. You know, um, 11. Last thing I wanted to say was the the mother of Cheyenne, the little girl that died, she when she came the the staff person that I was really close to. You know, I never expected anything [00:55:00] like that. I mean, she was so nice. And I never thought anything. Maybe because I had kind of a stereotype or something like that. And they sat there. And when she they talked, I mean, I can speak for everybody. That was in that room. I just I was crying and I was I don't I couldn't hold it in. I was kind of embarrassed at first, but I couldn't hold it in because I don't I know how it feels to lose somebody like, Well, not I didn't lose her, but I feel like losing that person. And, um after she got done speaking, I went up there and I was always scared [00:55:30] of to be next to somebody who had AIDS. I was always wondering, God, does this person have aids? But now I think that I'm not scared of the person that has AIDS. I'm just scared to get AIDS. And now I got to protect myself. So after I went up there and it was just a natural reaction, I went up there and I hugged the lady Kim and I hugged her and I was crying and I made the staff. Mr Miss Young, I made her cry, too. And it was It was just a strong feeling. And I wasn't scared anymore. I don't know. It was different after that experience. [00:56:00] It felt good inside a lot of stereotype. A lot of stereotypes people have is like, you know, by you know, people that look clean like, Oh, they don't really have AIDS. People really mostly think, most likely like, um, people that use drugs or people that you know have that have sex a lot really have AIDS. But then, um, you know, a person that maybe a virgin has sex for the first time could get AIDS just once. So it only takes once, you know, um, you know, it's a lot of stereotypes. Only people that you know shoot needle drugs and [00:56:30] have a lot of sex or people that can get AIDS. But it could be the first time a person has sex or the first time a people use a needle could get AIDS. Thank you very much. Thank.

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TITLE: Christina Sunley - AIDS Memorial Quilt Conference (1995)
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VOICES: Christina Sunley
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1990s; AIDS Memorial Quilt; AIDS Memorial Quilt conference 1995; Christina Sunley; HIV / AIDS; NAMES Project; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; San Francisco; United States of America
DATE: 10 March 1995
YEAR: 1995
LOCATION: San Francisco, San Francisco, United States of America
CONTEXT: Christina from the NAMES Project in San Francisco gives a keynote presentation: The Quilt - a powerful resource for HIV prevention education.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I wanted to start this session by reading a little bit from a letter. This panel right here, this pink one just came into our offices this week over the weekend, and Evelyn, who is our quilt caretaker, showed it to me and she gave me this letter. I think it speaks very [00:00:30] well to why we are having this conference. Diane's sister wrote this letter. She says this quilt represents her 27 short years in pictures. Then she goes on to talk a bit about her life. And then she says, if kids in school [00:01:00] were told about condoms in the early eighties, my sister might have been alive today to lead a normal and healthy life. She would have had a family, but now we can only remember her in our dreams. And in this quilt, her dream was to go to California. She never made it, but her quilt will. [00:01:30] Before I started organising this conference, I didn't really know very much about what was going on with quilt projects around the world. So one thing we did was in your registration. We included a questionnaire and I wanted to show you briefly. Some of the results to help us get a picture [00:02:00] of what we are we are doing internationally in terms of education. And again, this is in your binder. 24 people responded through their questionnaires. 24 countries. First, we asked you to indicate your interest in the five areas education, display, logistics, [00:02:30] fundraising, media relations and volunteers. As you can see, education was the primary interest. I know you're all interested in all of these topics. We could probably spend a day on each of them. Another question we asked. We gave a whole long list of educational topics [00:03:00] and we asked you to say, which were the three most important to you. And these are them using the quilt for HIV prevention, using the quilt to encourage support for people with AIDS and designing an education programme for your quilt project. [00:03:30] I also wanted to find out how many of you are bringing the quilt into schools and into your communities. 19 of the 24 of you said that you have an active educational programme. 14 countries are bringing the quilt into schools. At least 18 are doing displays in the community. [00:04:00] And one thing I wanted to find out is how many of you teach HIV prevention safer sex, HIV transmission. When you go into a school, 14 of you said you do 10 said. You don't in this country, we don't. We work with other groups that provide that information. But whether you do that or not, you'll know best about [00:04:30] what works in your country. 16 of you said that you work with organisations that provide HIV prevention. What do we mean when we say using the quilt for HIV prevention? It's different for each of us. What I'm going to talk about in this session is what I know our model here in the United States. This afternoon we'll be hearing [00:05:00] some of your models in your countries and I hope we'll have a chance to talk a lot about those. I wanted to give you a brief sense of what our educational efforts are at the Names Project Foundation. At this point, I would estimate we are reaching between two and 300,000 students every year with a quilt through our different programmes, and [00:05:30] that number is rapidly increasing every year. We don't just reach youth. We try to reach everyone who is at risk for HIV infection, which is everyone, and especially those populations that now have high infection rates in this country. We have display programmes that go into businesses into religious settings, colleges, communities. [00:06:00] Today we'll be focusing on our high school programme. We are having a big focus on youth at the Names project here in San Francisco because most of the people who are dying of AIDS in this country were infected when they were youths. AIDS is now the leading cause of death among people [00:06:30] ages 25 to 44 most of whom were infected in their teens and early twenties. One out of two infections occurs in someone under 25 years of age. One in four occurs in someone under 20 years of age. So how are [00:07:00] we going to reach these young people? Recently, we've started a programme called the National High School Quilt Programme. Although we've been educating youth for years through our displays and with our national chapters, it was it's hard often to, as you may know, to get school kids from the community to come to a big display to have the money to have [00:07:30] them bussed in and to get the school to bring them. Also, our chapters cannot possibly meet the demand that we have to bring the quilt into schools in this country. So we started the high school programme. It's our first programme whose primary goal is to use the quilt for HIV prevention education. [00:08:00] It's also the first programme where we have done a thorough evaluation and obtained results. As Marcus said. It's very hard to evaluate the impact of the quilt. We don't really need to because we know that it works. [00:08:30] But in this country at least in order to get money, you need to show other people you need to have data that say this is effective. I hope that many of the strategies and activities in this programme you can adapt to other audiences as well in your country and each country has received a full set of the programme materials. [00:09:00] We began designing the programme in the fall of 1993 and we've had about 90 school displays so far. We're increasing that number very quickly each semester we began very small with only seven schools to test all the materials to make sure they really work and [00:09:30] one thing I wanted to say about our materials is that when it fell to me to start writing these, of course, in a very short period of time, I looked around for what was already out there and I found some wonderful lesson guides from United Kingdom Names, Project and names Project Canada. And many of those ideas are in the lesson guide for our high school programme. And that's what I mean by a network [00:10:00] of quilt educators sharing all of our ideas with each other. How does this programme work? First of all, high school in this country is for students ages 14 to 18 years old. Often these schools invite younger students in as well to see the quilt. Our programme is [00:10:30] free of charge to the schools, which means that we spend a lot of time scrambling around to get money. The centres for disease control has given us some support, and we also have foundation and corporate support. If you're starting a programme or trying to expand yours and you want ideas about raising money, Paula Harris. I see some nods [00:11:00] out there. It's the hardest part. Paul Harris is one of the people in our development department who has made this programme happen. It's been her dream. She will be here this afternoon, and she is happy to talk with you today or in the next few days. While you're here about funding ideas for education, [00:11:30] the programme is one week long. We don't send a names project person to each school because these schools are all over the country. At first we were very scared. What's going to happen to our quilt? If we ship it to a high school and you may be aware of the level of violence [00:12:00] in many American high schools and inner cities, we give them a display handbook, which is in your binders that tells them how to care for the quilt. We have been in inner city schools in New York City, where the students are in gangs and one school I can think of in the Bronx that fits that description. In New [00:12:30] York City, those students have made more panels than any other school in this country. In this country, those students are the most affected by AIDS. Some of those students have made panels for their parents. We have never had a problem. The students treat the quilt with the utmost respect. [00:13:00] The school submits an application to us, telling us how they will use the quilt to further HIV prevention in their school. Then we begin shipping materials to them. We have a lesson guide for teachers. We have a poster, We have video tapes and books [00:13:30] and we have a guide for students, which is out on the table. There they get a very small amount. What is to us a very small amount of quilt sections between one and four of the sections you see hanging here. We worried. Would this be enough to have an impact? [00:14:00] Because this programme? Because in this programme the quilts stay in the school for a week and the students organise everything with their teachers. They plan the programme. They set up the quilt. They invite the speakers, they lead their classmates [00:14:30] on tours of the quilt and we found it has a tremendous impact. These schools can't even bear to send the quilt back to us because they feel like it has become part of them. In that week, I mentioned that there's it's organised by students and teachers. We ask [00:15:00] them to form what we call a quilt display team. This afternoon you will meet a quilt display team from a school in California and you'll learn a bit more about how those teams work. I think that of all the things that make this programme successful, having the students and the teachers organise it as they see fit for their school [00:15:30] has made a tremendous difference. I want to talk for a moment about the goals of the programme. The first goal is to make AIDS real to young people. We know what this means to show the human side of the epidemic. We have a very big problem [00:16:00] with reaching youth in this country and I don't know if you have the same problem. Our young people think they are invulnerable. They are young, they cannot conceive that they could ever die or even get a terrible illness in this country. Many young people know that they should use condoms. They've gotten that information [00:16:30] or that they can abstain from sex to protect themselves. Many of them do not use that information because they don't believe that it applies to them. Our next in our next session, Julie Taylor will be talking about some of the effective ways to teach adolescents about how to protect [00:17:00] themselves, and an important component of that is to help them realise that they, too, are vulnerable for them to believe I can get AIDS. And this is where the quilt can make a tremendous contribution. Educators in this country are tremendously frustrated [00:17:30] because they are teaching some of them. They are trying to teach young people to protect themselves and they can't get through. And then they understand that the quilt can help them to get through. We send the schools panels that are made in memory of young people, and we send them panels that are from their town or their city. This is another area of the programme that has made [00:18:00] it very strong. When a young person sees a panel for another young person, it hits home. This was a panel. Most panels in the quilt are made by friends and family. Dwayne made his own panel. It reads [00:18:30] My name is Dwayne Kearns, per year. I was born on December 20th, 1964. I was diagnosed with AIDS on September 7th, 1987 at 4:45 p. m. I was 22 years old. Sometimes it makes me very sad. I made this panel myself. If you are reading it, [00:19:00] I am dead. If any of you work with young people, you can imagine the impact this panel has on them. And so we made sure that every school could know about it. By putting this panel on a poster, we found that while many students immediately get the impact of the quilt, [00:19:30] but some students have a little trouble focusing in, or maybe they're a little afraid of it. Or maybe they're overwhelmed. So we do. We do an exercise with them. It's called Looking at a panel. It's in our lesson guide, and the teachers in the schools give these worksheets to the students when they visit the quilt in their school. [00:20:00] It's in your binder. We have it in Spanish and in English under Section two. It's a few pages in about the student. Um, Well, actually, what we do is we get the lesson guide. That's a good question. We get the lesson guide. Uh, I'm sorry. The question is, do you give this worksheet [00:20:30] to the students when they arrive at the display. I recently went on a trip and observed this programme in action and I saw a teacher who's never met anyone from the names project. Teach her class, take out this worksheet and prepare them to do the exercise. But you can also hand it to students right at the [00:21:00] display. Either way, we have it in our student guide as well. Recently went on a trip and observed this programme in action. And I saw a teacher who's never met anyone from the names project Teach her class, take out this worksheet and prepare them to do the exercise. But you can also [00:21:30] hand it to students right at the display. Either way, we have it in our student guide as well. What I would like you to do right now is to do this exercise. It'll get us standing up and also it's a way to be close to the quilt. And I have to admit I also have a selfish reason, which is I hope you will come and tell me later what you think about this exercise. [00:22:00] And could it work in your country? Um I would like to ask to please not use this as a time for the break because we are running behind schedule, and as soon as I'm done, we'll have the break. You may not even have time to complete the whole exercise, but you can get started on it. So what I would like you to do is to pick one panel, get up out of your chairs, pick one panel in the room. [00:22:30] You might want to try imagining that you are 16 years old in your country. What panel might interest you and try answering these questions that I think that in addition to reminding students that they, too, are mortal, the [00:23:00] quilt has a very positive message to adolescents. That message says these people in the quilt were loved, and now they are missed. They are mourned, just as you would be missed and mourned if you died. It reminds them of [00:23:30] the value of human life, sometimes the troubles of adolescence and of poverty, racism, homophobia. These problems can overwhelm young people and make them feel that their life isn't valuable. Many of them are self [00:24:00] destructive or take dangerous risks with their lives. Because the quilt is a celebration of human life, it reminds young people that everyone's life is valuable, including their own. The second goal of the programme is to initiate discussion about HIV and AIDS. [00:24:30] As we know, the quilt makes it easier for everyone to talk about AIDS and the issues that go along with that which are not openly discussed in many countries. We have a lesson God that helps teachers to lead their students in discussions about the quilt, [00:25:00] and I know that many of you have lesson guides that you use as well. The third goal of the programme is to act as a focal point for HIV prevention education to create an environment conducive to teaching HIV prevention information. [00:25:30] In this in this country, there are some schools that teach almost nothing but some schools. They are getting this information a lot and they're tired of it. The quilt invigorates them to keep talking and to keep learning about AIDS. It motivates young people [00:26:00] to learn this information. I think for our programme with the high schools, what has been most successful is we tell the schools the quilt is the centre of your HIV prevention programme and we give them some ideas of what they can plan to go along with that, [00:26:30] inviting in people with AIDS and HIV, preferably young people doing theatre, having classroom discussion about transmission, the kind of instruction that Julie will be talking about soon. That really helps young people to know how to use these safer behaviours. What's been amazing for me is I've travelled around, [00:27:00] is how each school has created their completely own quilt programme. I visited three schools in South Dakota, a very rural state, more cows than people, and one of those schools was on a Lakota Indian reservation, and those students made this panel up here. [00:27:30] Another one of those schools was a school for the deaf run by the state government. I'd like to take about 10 minutes to show you a video tape from that school's opening ceremony of the quilt. I'll pause at a couple of points to orient you to what they're doing. Yeah. Oh, could you pause a moment? [00:28:00] This was shot videotaped by the students, and the whole programme was planned by the students. The first person they have 4 12 by 12 S up on their school stage, and there's a sign language interpreter. So the English is pretty clear and slow. I think you'll be able to get most of it. The first person speaking is the state HIV prevention [00:28:30] coordinator. Could you roll the tape? Each panel tells the story of someone whose life has been cut short by AIDS. Today, the quilt travels all over the world. Can you get to convention centres to colleges and universities, to churches and now to high schools? The National High School Quilt programme is about people working together here at the South Dakota School for the Deaf. It's about students and teachers, parents [00:29:00] and community members who care about AIDS and who want to make a difference. AIDS is sometimes hard to talk about. People are frightened or embarrassed or simply do not know where to begin. The quilt is the tool that initiates that dialogue. This event has brought your school together to work on one of the most alarming health issues facing young people today. [00:29:30] AIDS. On behalf of the South Dakota Department of Education and Cultural Affairs Office of the Secretary, Dr John Bonito, it's my pleasure to publicly acknowledge the overwhelming contributions of the students here at this school. Your participation in this pilot project has exceeded all expectations. I'm touched by the commitment of this entire community by the dedication and the cooperation [00:30:00] of administration faculty members and staff who continue to open wide the doors of this school for new experiences for students here. Most importantly, though, are the contributions that are made by you the students, whether your volunteer hours included helping with media displays, making red ribbons, guiding people to the quilt display, reading the names, taking photos, [00:30:30] offering special music or designing leafs panel each and every one of you has reason to be proud. Thank you also to the family, for sharing your stories of life with these students and for allowing them to use fabric and pictures and symbols to create something as beautiful as this panel. In honour of him as students of the South Dakota [00:31:00] School for the Deaf, you are a positive role model not only to students across this state, but today you are role models to students nationwide. You have truly met the challenge of keeping the love alive, and we thank you very much. Panel for a graduate of the School for the Deaf, This winner, the South Dakota [00:31:30] School for the deaf formed an improvisational group, South Dakota School for the Deaf. Students were trained by students and advisers from Washington High School. The advisor for this group are Jana Carlson from SDS and Betty Charlton from CSD. And these students have developed several skips that they will perform now to help in AIDS prevention education. If you pause the tape a moment, please this activity, these skits that they're doing [00:32:00] was not something they ever did before the quilt came to their school. In fact, many of the students in this school had never even heard of AIDS before this quilt display. Because they're deaf, they're cut off from the culture more. In the first Theatre skit, you will see the theme is Who here has AIDS? In the second skit, you will see two Studentss [00:32:30] boyfriend and girlfriend trying to decide whether to have sex, whether to use a condom. OK, please roll the tape. I [00:33:00] you'll notice that some of the students in the audience, when they ask them questions they don't seem to understand completely. They just have some troubles communicating. That's great. [00:33:30] My name is Helen, and I have five Children and I'm a wife. I What? Hello? My name is Dr Teff. I work at the hospital and save people's lives in er. Hello. My name is April. [00:34:00] I am a prostitute from California. My name is Jeff Michaels. I am a psychiatrist. I have three kids. Hello. My name is Susan. I'm a counsellor. I have two Children and I'm from Montana. My name is Sarah. I am a lesbian. [00:34:30] I'm a nurse in a hospital. Which one of us has AIDS? Which one do you think has AIDS? Which one? All of us. All of us. Why? Why? The fact [00:35:00] that none of us have AIDS. How do people get AIDS? How? How do you know? Be sick. No [00:35:30] people trading blood fluid contact. That's how we get AIDS today. By drugs. By sex from the sun? No, you don't get AIDS. It's by contact. Through blood. Thank you. Yeah. [00:36:00] This is called boyfriend and girlfriend. Hi, sweetie. I'm fine. How are you? Work is tough. It's boring. [00:36:30] They give me a lot of work. That's sad. How would we go out? We We've been dating for about six months. Well, how about how about we have sex tonight? Oh, come on. Think about it. I don't know. I'll bring a condom. I will. You Sure. Hi. What's up? Everything's fine. [00:37:00] You know, my boyfriend. You know he wants to have sex, but I don't know. What do you think? No, it's not a good idea, but why not? You have been going together for six months, right? Come on. It's showing him that you really love him. Yeah, but I don't know. [00:37:30] OK, you can turn off the tape at this point. Thank you. I actually can turn it off. It's done. Um, they go on to discuss with the students. What should she do? And they have a discussion in the question. Can you ask the students to, um, do something like that? We suggest it as an option [00:38:00] to do theatre, and we tried to give them resources and ideas over the phone from San Francisco, but we found that they are incredibly resourceful on their own as well. In the rest of the ceremony, they bring out the quilt panel that they made. We also have a signature square that we send to each school. This is incredibly important. It [00:38:30] gives the young people a chance to express what they are thinking on time. So I'm going to collapse a bit. The rest of the presentation Um, could we have the data? We did a very thorough evaluation of our programme. It's been interesting for us and it has also helped us to get money. We could not get money without this [00:39:00] data. This is from the first phase of the programme. We now have a whole thick report from the second phase and you have that in your binders. You'll notice that some people have bigger binders than others. Each country gets one binder that has all these appendices. So [00:39:30] each country has all the educational materials. If others of you want them, we're happy to provide them. We just didn't want everyone to have to lug around this big binder. OK, we asked the students because of seeing the quilt. Will you be more likely to take steps to reduce your chances of getting infected with HIV and AIDS? Of [00:40:00] the students who said they were not already taking steps, 87% said that they would because of seeing the quilt. I think now that's up to 91 or 94% of course, if you know young people what they say and what they do can be two different things. But what we're seeing is we're reaching our programme [00:40:30] goal of motivating students and reaching them. I'm going to skip now to the last question and again you have. There's also a copy of the report on the table and you can read more because of seeing the quilt. Will you be more likely to find out more about how to protect yourself from getting HIV? And 82% said that they would. [00:41:00] So, again, we're reaching our programme goal there of motivating students to learn more to really learn questions. That's a good question. He asked. How long afterwards? We send the schools these questionnaires and they do them within the week following the display. Now. This time we're also going to do a follow up with some students six months later to see we're [00:41:30] also doing focus groups where we actually discuss with them about more. Yeah, we do and you'll yeah. All of those materials are in are in the master what we call the master binder with the appendices. We also have I meant to bring it If you're interested, let me know. I have a very simple one page questionnaire that I give to our chapters. It's [00:42:00] much easier than this, and it asks the really key question. So I'll bring that. What? I'll repeat it. OK, The question is, what do we do about schools and teachers that have no information about AIDS? That is a critical question. [00:42:30] And what we have found is that the quilt works in schools that have no AIDS programme and schools that have a complete AIDS prevention programme. If we find a school that wants to start, they don't have very much. They're not doing much yet. We give them the quilt and we don't tell them what [00:43:00] to do. We don't say you can't have the quilt unless you teach them how to put condoms onto a plastic Penis in front of the classroom. Because in some parts of this country they would say, Take your quilt back to San Francisco then. But what we find is that once the quilt is in the door, that school is changed, their programme begins to expand. After [00:43:30] that, I now um no, because most of them they're Oh, I'm sorry The question is, do we find it hard with high schools that don't have AIDS education? To use the curriculum in this country, the government requires most. Almost all the states are required [00:44:00] to do AIDS education, but they most of them can do that as they see fit. And for some people, that means not at all. But we find that most of them are using the materials, especially now that we're sending them on time. We've had some kinks to work out as we've started the programme, but they are using the programme materials. Did you have a [00:44:30] question? OK, I know I've only got about five minutes and I wanted to talk about some of the things that we've found out about how to strengthen the HIV prevention impact of the quilt. We know how the quilt works very well to encourage compassion and support for people living with AIDS [00:45:00] and HIV, and that's a very important role of the quilt. We've also found out some ways that help increase the HIV prevention impact, and I think the first and most important one, although it is not always possible, is to send quilt panels that match the audience that match the [00:45:30] demographic characteristics of the audience. So we try to send panels of young people to schools we tried to match by the region of the country. If a school has a large number of Asian American students, we will try to send panels that were made for Asian Americans and so on. Because in this country, people AIDS [00:46:00] is always someone else's disease. It always belongs to someone of a different race or a different sexual orientation. You may not have enough panels yet to do that. We have a lot of trouble trying to find the right ones to send to the right place, and we're working on that. But one way to increase your ability to do that is to have the groups you're trying to reach, make panels so young [00:46:30] people are making panels for other young people. I'm just going to touch on a couple of these points, but I would be happy if you have questions about the other ones. One of the most important things is to create opportunities for hands on activities for youth. They like to do things, and that's how they learn. This is a section of the panel you see hanging there. [00:47:00] This panel was made by homeless youth in Seattle, Washington, and we must always remember that we need to reach youth who are out of school as well as youth in school, and the quilt is a great way to do that. I'm just going to read you a little bit about what these students, what these young people said about making this panel. But I will leave their explanation [00:47:30] out there. They did this, and they said the panel is made in memory of their homeless youth centres, young people who have died of AIDS that OK, it was made by a 15 year old girl and a 13 year old girl. We find [00:48:00] lots of boys like to make panels. It has surprised me. The top of the panel represents the streets, and what they have up there in the corner is a homeless youth sleeping on a bench. They have an ambulance coming. They have homeless youth who are prostitutes, they say, because many street kids have sex for drugs, money or a warm bed. [00:48:30] They have a marijuana leaf to represent the drugs that are part of street life, so our chapter in Seattle uses this panel a lot with young people. Again, I could talk for a whole hour about my trip. As I know, we all have our quilt stories [00:49:00] to this Lakota Indian reservation. They adapted the quilt to their own culture with no help from us, and it was incredible. They had the spiritual leaders of the community come in and talk to the to the young Indian Children on the reservation about AIDS for the first time. They [00:49:30] have their own quilts they make, and they wrapped these around the quilts of the family members of the boy who died. That beautiful panel was made by Lakota Indian High School students for a youth from their reservation. And then the tribe took the panel, a group of them on horseback, and they rode with the [00:50:00] panel on horseback to a sacred spot. And there they released Chip's Spirit, and they turned the panel symbolically over to the names project. Our culture we have, we have so many cultures here in this country that we need to let people adapt this as [00:50:30] it works for them, and as I know you do in your own countries, I just have a couple of minutes left. Are there any questions this afternoon we'll be breaking up into small groups and you'll have a chance to talk a lot with each other about the problems you're having with your education programmes and to help each other solve those. [00:51:00] Right now, we're going to have a break for 15 minutes and we will see you back here at quarter of 11. Thank you. Oh, if you want to give me your sheet, I would love to see it. That would be great. Your worksheet on the panel. Thank you.

IRN: 516
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ATL REF: OHDL-003960
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089254
TITLE: Nicki Eddy and co - New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt (1992)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Nicki Eddy; Warren Butler
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1990s; HIV / AIDS; Mike Bakers; NAMES Project; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; Nicki Eddy; Warren Butler; health
DATE: 16 September 1992
YEAR: 1992
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this radio interview Nicki Eddy and Allan [Warren Butler] talk to Mike Bakers on Radio Pacific about the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt. Special thanks to MediaWorks (owners of Radio Pacific) for allowing us to make this archival recording available.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: And, uh, I'm delighted to be able to say that our programme this afternoon has, uh, has brought to you compliments of Mitsubishi Motors, Mitsubishi Motors, New Zealand Limited. Everything we do we do for you here in New Zealand. It's sometimes convenient to forget that we're living alongside and increasingly, with HIV aids. It's now an international epidemic penetrating every part of the globe and every corner of society. And my guests today are from the New Zealand Quilt Project. Nicky [00:00:30] Edie, who is the quilt convenor for the New Zealand Quilt Project, and Alan Buller, who's living with HIV. Nicky, Good afternoon and welcome. It's good to have you here at Radio Pacific, and I'm delighted that Mitsubishi Motors New Zealand Limited have made the hour possible. Good afternoon, Mike. And we It's wonderful to be here. Alan, you too. Thank you very much. You must be pretty excited, Nicky, because I know you're planning on a trip off to Washington very shortly. You're away off to the Washington International unveiling. That's quite right. International unveiling. That happens in the first week in October 2nd week in October. Yes. [00:01:00] Yes, yes. I am getting very, very excited about it, and we've just had a tremendous amount of literature in from the States, and it's getting more exciting all the time, particularly because at this point there are 17 confirmed countries or other countries in the world that will be there. And it's just going to be awesome. It really is. The New Zealand Quilt Project is part of an international movement, which began back in 1985 in San Francisco and now 20 countries. And in fact, I think it's more than that now, isn't it? 23. 23 countries [00:01:30] worldwide are involved in the International Quilt project, and, as I say, you're off to the unveiling of the International AIDS Memorial Quilt in Washington. DC. I've been talking around the station over the last couple of days about the New Zealand quilt project Nicky, and everywhere I I mentioned the word people say quilt project. And of course, it's one of those words. Hard to get your tongue around. They say Quilt project. What is the quilt project? So now let me put the question to you again, because there are people all over the country listening to Radio Pacific this afternoon saying, Gee, Mike's doing something different this afternoon. [00:02:00] What is the quilt project? The quilt project is, um, six by three panels that are individually made for people or persons that have died of AIDS. One panel then is sewn into a block of eight. been creating a 12 ft by 12 ft block. So we speak about panels, and then we speak about blocks. But in fact, it is one block that makes up the quilt project, so to speak. Why [00:02:30] am I involved? I, um, lost my 33 year old brother to AIDS last year, and I found and after he had gone, was approached by members of the quilt project at that point in time to, um, create a quilt for Robin. And I found it to be a really positive way of dealing with my grief with my anger, so many things. It was a really positive way. And it's a memorial project that is a memorial project. [00:03:00] Yes. And you've been giving tirelessly of your energy to this project in New Zealand. And I know that you're only one of many thousands across the world or around the world. This is true. Yes, we We here in Auckland are a very small group of volunteers that just dedicate a tremendous amount of their time to getting out there And, um yeah, breaching the words, so to speak or a AIDS awareness creating AIDS awareness. We've had the, [00:03:30] um, blocks into, um, four schools in the Auckland region so far, and the response from these kids has just been awesome again. Um, just the fact that it's not just facts and figures on a blackboard anymore, they can see that each panel represents a person's life. And this has been a person that has been a grandson, a son, a brother, an uncle, a sister and auntie. And on and on, it goes. How many people in New Zealand have we lost now? Um, approximately 300 people to AIDS [00:04:00] in New Zealand. We have on the New Zealand Quilt project 109 names. I counted them all yesterday again, which is one third of the people lost to AIDS in this country, which makes New Zealand's core project the largest court project in the world. If you're looking at per capita of people, how many people have we lost? 303 100 just just approximately 300. The last statistics I had was just must be almost at that point in New Zealand, where [00:04:30] pretty well everyone in the country is in some way touched by someone who has died of HIV AIDS or is living with HIV. I believe that, yes, well, And if they have not, then I personally believe that within the next 5, 10 years that then, yes, we will all have known or know of somebody that lives directly or indirectly with HIV. I related it when we were talking last night. [00:05:00] Somewhat reminded me of the of the Erebus crash when we had that horrific aeroplane disaster on Mount Erebus. Everyone in New Zealand was in some way touched by that disaster, and we're almost at the same level of numbers. How many people are there in New Zealand who are now known to be HIV, HIV nigh on 800 people? Now that's no. And again, if I could just yeah, just know. And if we probably double those figures, that's probably a true account [00:05:30] of the people that are positive here in New Zealand. The quilts themselves. I'll come back to the question of HIV and AIDS in a moment. Alan, I have to ask you before I get on to the question. When were you diagnosed as being HIV diagnosed? Three years ago. ANZAC three years ago. So you're living with HIV? I am, indeed yes. And living well living well, How did you, uh how did it affect you? Could I ask you how? How did that news come to you? When when you discovered that you were HIV positive. I, um, [00:06:00] left the doctors, and I was I was stunned. I wasn't quite sure what was gonna happen. I thought I was going to die tomorrow. Um, it just blew me away. But now, after a lot of deep soul searching and looking into myself, I've come to realise that, um, I have got a disease that will possibly kill me, but, um, right now I've just got to keep on going. Keep living. Is that a certainty? Is that a certain I mean, is it is it? I mean, it's not a certainty that the disease will kill you. You could walk out of here and walk under a bus, but I mean, but the big difference is I can see the [00:06:30] bus coming. Whereas everybody else, um, may get hit by a bus. I, I cannot move away from the bus because it keeps going. Keeps coming towards me. It's a bit like somebody living with an endurable disease of any kind. Any kind? Yeah, exactly. A heart condition could fall over in front of people with leukaemia cancer change your attitude on life. Oh, yeah. It makes you look at life a lot sharper. You're not, um, so flippant. You don't worry about material possessions quite so much. What do you think about the quilts project? The quilts are amazing. Just [00:07:00] for the fact that when we take them into the schools and we show the kids that this could happen to them, this is no not longer a statistic. This is not a number. This is live real people. And the quilts. Um, when people make the quilts, they put so much love and care into these quilts, they become people, they have a spirit. And I call it the quiet power of the quilt, where, um, you can just see them and you can see the loss and the love that these people have put into the quilts. It's it really is amazing. And [00:07:30] when we take them into the high schools and we talk to, um, 5th and 6th forms who are sexually active in this day and age, Um, and they can actually see Wow, this was somebody who lived and somebody cared for this and this person played rugby or, um, like dancing or whatever was in the school debating team or whatever. Yeah, exactly. So it's really more than a memorial, isn't it? It's, uh, it's to you. It's more than a memorial. Oh, yes, yes. I, I believe [00:08:00] it's, um it's the stories of these people's lives and and they count as I say, Um, no matter to me, they are all people, no matter where. What race, what religion, what sexuality. I just see the people behind the statistics and, um that, yeah, they were all loved. And as Alan has already said, um, just the love, the understanding, the compassion that goes into these these quilts is phenomenal. Where did it start? When did the International [00:08:30] quilt project begin? Ok, The initiative came in the mid eighties when a young man in the in San Francisco by the name of Cleve Jones created a panel out of grief in his backyard at that point in time for his friend Mervin, that had Marvin. Oh, yeah, that had just passed away from AIDS. And then a little while later, they they were having this big march with with people that were living with AIDS in in the US and they started to [00:09:00] put onto a brick wall the names of people that had they had lost two AIDS there of friends and family. And this young man stood back and thought, Hey, that looks like a patchwork quilt. And, um, and basically from that initiative, it grew, um, to the point that in 1987 there were just under 2000 panels in the US Names project, and they then had their very first unveiling in Washington. [00:09:30] DC once again and, um, And it has grown and grown and grown from there, worth mentioning that in 1987 when they had the first failing in Washington, the panels that they had made for the names Project Kilton The States at that stage covered something like 2. 5 acres. That's right and and now you're off to Washington to unveil something like 15. That's the names project alone. Understand that that is multiply. I don't know II. I have [00:10:00] no idea how many panels that's going to be like something. 1030 30 Odd 1000. And that's just the names project alone. So imagine what it's going to be like with that, plus the other 17 countries, including New Zealand, that are going we're going to take, um, three of the New Zealand blocks to Washington. Um, we would like very much to be able to take them all, but at the same time going on here. There will be an AIDS visual exhibition going on over at Paara [00:10:30] at the same time, and there are blocks that have been basically booked since the beginning of the year. So by taking three blocks, they can also travel personal luggage as well, so that never are they let out of our sight. My guests this afternoon are Nikki Eddy. She's the quilt convenor for the New Zealand Quilt Project, which is part of an international AIDS memorial project, and my other guest is Alan Buller, who is living with HIV, and I'm sure that there are people listening to this programme across New Zealand at the moment who have been in some way touched by someone living with [00:11:00] HIV or someone who's died with AIDS. And if you'd like to join the programme, perhaps there are people living in Northland, for example who had a a little to do with the making of some of those Northland quilts which I've seen examples of only yesterday and, uh that you picked up when you were in Northland just recently. Nick, you might like to call us and share the programme with, uh, with my two guests, Alan Buller and Nicky Eddie. We're here for the quilt project and this programme is being made possible by Mitsubishi Motors New Zealand Limited. Now their slogan is everything we do [00:11:30] we do for you. I thought it was very appropriate that they should sponsor a special hour on Radio Pacific nationwide that we might talk about this project before you take off for Washington and the international unveiling its Sorry, we're out. Bryce wants to test drive that new mirage, so we'll probably be ages if we haven't rung back by five. Please phone the Mitsubishi dinner and get them to send out a search party cheering in our major centres at the moment and that involves them. [00:12:00] They go to do what we call our unveiling ceremony, and I'll often go there and just help with those ceremonies and do a talk about, um, just just not the fact that the quilts represent those people's lives lost to AIDS here in New Zealand. But the fact that they do help encourage people living with HIV AIDS to do just that get on with living and they help their families. Because once a person with HIV just this is from my personal experience. You know, um tells you [00:12:30] that they are HIV, that you as a family live with that virus as well and emotionally and psychologically so and it really is a positive way of helping people deal with an awful lot. You came back from overseas to discover. Well, discover my brother. No, no, no, no. I knew before I came back from overseas, and Robin himself had been living in Australia for a number of years. And when he became quite unwell, he came back to [00:13:00] New Zealand at that point in time and was cared for by my sister and mum at that point in time. And then I came back when he was particularly unwell. We were living in Queensland and we decided to come back to New Zealand and I came back about March last year. It was, and by that time, of course, he had deteriorated so badly that he needed 24 hour full on full time care. And yeah, so that's when I sort of step stepped in because my sister is sort of cope with it. Although he had been [00:13:30] mobile for nine months prior to this, um, this was the fact that, you know, once they get basically bedridden and and really lose all their independency, Um, yeah, they do need full time, 24 hour care. And other than that, it's, um, being quilt convener is also the education part of it. Just, um, speaking to people. There are an awful lot of people out there who still get confused between the difference the HIV virus and AIDS itself. [00:14:00] And what sort of questions? Well, that one. The difference between and of course, we often cover the the types of people Well, the types of people that get HIV are lawyers. Yeah, I mean and And you know, to me again, we just deal because it covers all communities. People. That's all that matters, is the Children and women. That's right. We have. We [00:14:30] have, um um yeah, quite a few women living in New Zealand with with HIV. That's that's and that's really important to remember. Yeah. Oh, immensely, immensely. The quilt project in itself has really enriched my life. Um, and HIV, um, has allowed me to meet so many tremendous, tremendous people that perhaps I may never well have met, but yeah, it's sure as Ellen already mentioned before, it makes you get [00:15:00] your priorities right and into perspective. She's only little, isn't she? But she is a very powerful woman. She looks, she looks shy and frail, but she gets out, she gets up and stands in front of people and tells them what's happening out there. And they stand and listen. We, um when we go into the schools, you can actually hear the kids listening, and we've had teachers come up to us and say, In the five years I've taught at the school, I've never seen or heard the kids listening so much and that [00:15:30] just shows the power. These kids are aware and they're they're worried and concerned. And Nicky gets up there and, um tells it like it is, and she does it in such a well, she's a mother so she can relate to these kids. And you got a couple of teenagers? I certainly have, Yes. And, um and there's not too many of their friends, their friends that get in and out of our home without having a, uh, a prevention talk on HIV aids because as parents, and we have to be aware of this whether we like it or not, our Children are not going to remain celibate until they're married. [00:16:00] And, um, and I, for one, having lost a brother would certainly not like to lose one of my Children to HIV A. I DS And, um so for parents, that sort of, you know, you think sometimes as a parent, well, you condone and you condemn, um, you condone Children. If you speak about, you know, safe measure and things like this and that you perhaps giving them a to go out there and do whatever they like willy nilly. No, I don't believe that. I just believe that it's every parent's responsibility now. I mean, a few years [00:16:30] ago, my mum might have been worried about me getting pregnant. I mean, not the fear of HIV. Now I worry about that. Maybe my teenage daughter may become pregnant and contact the virus while she's there. One moment of indiscretion. Exactly. Exactly. One night stand exactly one husband away on business. One slip up, just one Exactly. And that's all that it takes. That's all that it takes. And hey, and everybody's human. So this is where I mean [00:17:00] about the discrimination. Long term. It doesn't matter how you contracted that virus. The point is, you are a person who wanted to live an extremely into longevity and that type of my guest. This afternoon's Nicky Eddy. She's the quilt convenor of the New Zealand AIDS Project. It's part of an international project, which is going to have its second unveiling in San Francisco and San Francisco and another in Washington, not San Francisco and Washington in a a couple of weeks time and the second week in October, [00:17:30] where something like 15 acres of a memorial quilt just from the United States is going to be on public display for a weekend and Nicky is off to this convention. Our number here in Auckland is 309 309. I thought we might have heard from a few people up and down the country who have been in some way touched by someone. Were they or in some way touched by the virus? It doesn't matter. It might be someone you know. It might be a neighbour. It might be a relative. It might be your husband. It might be whatever it might be. Somebody with HIV just diagnosed. [00:18:00] It might be somebody who's died of the virus that you'd like to join us this afternoon to talk to Niki, Eddie and Alan Buller. Alan's diagnosed HIV positive only three years ago, and the programme is made possible by Mitsubishi Motors New Zealand Limited. I I'm grateful to their assistance. It's 20. It's 19 minutes away from four. Sarah joining us on the programme now from Palmerston North. Hello, Sarah. Hi. Good afternoon. Good afternoon. Could I speak to please? I [00:18:30] admire you very much for what you're doing about this campaign. Thank you. And that is for awareness. of that's correct. Yes, indeed, Yes. How do you feel about the education that's going well, Lack of, I believe, to the general public at large and in the schools about HIV and AIDS. OK, well, for the few schools we've been into Sarah with the guidance counsellors again, they they are doing the best with [00:19:00] the resources that they have. But yeah, for sure. There is a tremendous heaps more to be done, and we hope that through the quilt project that we can do this really non threatening way. It helps to open up the doors and helps people to talk about what can be a very, very difficult subject. Because it's like if we don't talk about it, perhaps it will go away. No, of course it's not. I only came in late on the programme. [00:19:30] You were saying about 800 people being infected in New Zealand. That was HIV positive HIV positive. How many people do you believe have died in the last? How many we have had? I cannot say in the last 2 to 3 years. I just know that overall it is 300 at this point in time, approximately 300 because unfortunately, sometimes [00:20:00] it takes up to six months for the final statistics to come through. But we won't forget about also, perhaps the New Zealanders dying overseas, that overseas that we don't have any account for. And there are many, many, many hundreds of our own countrymen and women dying overseas that we don't have an account for. So that's something that tends to be forgotten about as well. I just I thought I had a friend that died at the end of last year of AIDS, [00:20:30] and there really is not the awareness about US awareness. In what way are we speaking, Sarah? The fact that everyone can get? Yes, that's quite right. Yes, it's no longer it's not, but that's it. It's quite often it's perhaps been known as the gay plague, and it [00:21:00] is an unfortunate fact and very sadly, that it has world in the Western world. Sadly affected our gay communities of the world, you know, hard, as fast as first, but that the heterosexual community now, for argument's sake, the latest stats I hear in the US are the young heterosexual males between 18 and 25 are a good make up a very, very high percentage of those being tested HIV positive. So you're quite right, [00:21:30] Sarah. It is not just a gay plague. It's everybody's concern. What do I do to stop? You mean the bigotry, The people that all of those Children and what do you what? Well, at this point in time, because, as you're aware, there is not a cure for HIV AIDS. So we have to work hard and fast on prevention, because prevention at this point in time is all we have. And we as parents, we as teachers, we the [00:22:00] likes of yourself, that have lost a friend to AIDS. And you know what it's like to see a loved one die of AIDS. It's pretty horrific, isn't it? It is. Of course it is. And I kept being told at the time they're not dying of AIDS related. OK, well, that's true. That's a true thought, too. I should say that myself, actually. And it's, um, But what we can do for prevention is particularly for those of us that have lost loved ones to ages, is just [00:22:30] to get out there and spread the word and say these are the ways you can contact the virus or contract the virus. And these are the ways you prevent yourself. Stay safe. Stay safe. Right, Sarah, thank you very much for taking the trouble to ring all the way from Palmerston. Thank you. God bless. Thank you for your contribution to the programme this afternoon. Take a quick break from my guests Nicky Edie, who's the quilt convenor for the New Zealand Quilt project, and Alan Buller, who is living with HIV. And you're welcome to call if you'd like to join the [00:23:00] programme on 309 39. This is Sim's 24 hour plumbing. Look, I know I should be here, but it's not every day they bring out a 1. 8 fuel injected lancer. GT I is it Just leave your name, number and blockage and I'll clear it when I'm back from I tell you what. Next time I buy a car, it will be a Mitsubishi, that's for sure. It's 11 minutes before Thank you. Mitsubishi Motors New Zealand Limited for sponsoring a special programme with the New Zealand Quilt Project. And my two guests are Nicky Edie, [00:23:30] who's the quilt convenor for New Zealand and Alan Buller, who's living with HIV. A quick call from Michael Way down there in fielding. Hello, Michael. Yes, I speak to please. Hi. Yeah. Hi. I've got a very exciting piece of information here that not many people are aware of right now in Australia. At the moment, there is research being done for a cure for AIDS. Um, it's the only, uh, hopeful [00:24:00] thing that I've ever heard of. Um, it's not a cure by drugs or any any sort of thing like that. It's actually like a herbal thing, isn't it? No, it's an electronic cure, and it's based on a principle called nuclear magnetic resonance. And if the closest thing you could liken it to would be the effect where you can shatter a crystal glass with an exact resonant frequency of a certain pitch [00:24:30] and certain strength. And how is that? Where is this attached to your body or something? No, no, it's well, so far I have read about this. They philtre the blood. It's a bit like it's a bit like a dialysis machine, and they philtre the blood through the sort of How did you come to hear about this? Well, I read it in an electronic hobbyist magazine. But, hey, but stranger things have happened. [00:25:00] But at some of these things, these miracle cures coming up all the time. And so many people are given false hope by these cures that, um whereas, um, general medicine has a lot to learn from herbalists and everything. Um, it's a little You can't raise people's hopes. That's right. I wouldn't want to raise people's hopes. Are you living with HIV, Mike? No, I'm not. Um, basically, what the guy has come up with so far is a a microwave oven. [00:25:30] Um, now, what he's done is look, let's not get too far into it. Michael, thank you very much for taking the trouble to ring and to wait on the line for so long. I don't want to get too far distracted from the from the purpose of the programme this afternoon, but thank you for sharing nonetheless. And who knows? Such stranger things have happened. You know, there are some wonderful people out there who are working very hard to find a cure myself as somebody who's living with the virus. I honestly don't see it happening in my lifetime. Well, you never [00:26:00] know, but I'm always holding out. Hope happen. Thanks for calling Michael all the way from fielding. I'd like to mention too. While it just occurs to me that there's a There's a wonderful little booklet. The New Zealand Quilt Project Age Memorial booklet has a wee booklet. Now, is this available for people? It certainly is. If they'd like to, um, perhaps send to us at post office, box 7024 Auckland. Um, well, yes. So Welles Street, Auckland. Thank you, Alan. [00:26:30] And donations are really accepted. And what happens with our donations is folks that once we've, um we hope to be able to put back into, um, much needed HIV support services. Is is where the funds from the quilt project go apart from paying for some merchandizing and that to help keep ourselves afloat. But ultimately, that's where we aim to put it back into all the money raised. Of course, by the quilt project is going to AIDS research and [00:27:00] the like. And it's only by the kind officers of people like Mr New Zealand Limited this afternoon that we were able to do this programme I mentioned before I mentioned before and you picked up the quilt project book the names Project book. Let's get back to your experience. Oh, yes, it was amazing. This was the first unveiling we had on the in Auckland. And, um, what it did to open up doors for our Maori people that have lost people to AIDS and for Maori people that are living with HIV [00:27:30] aids was just awesome. Allen was actually with me and up in Northland, and it was just really overwhelming, wasn't it? The way those Maori people open their hearts and and these quilts live, I mean, that's all there is to it. These quilts live, they they did the wonderful thing. Um, they they they were very There was only about half a dozen stops they had on their tour. They had them in Northland a whole month. They ended up just their itinerary was shot to heck and because each I just [00:28:00] basically kept asking to Hey, when you pass, stop, we want to see. And they reckon they must have reached over 10,000 people in Northland alone with the court project and covered about. I think they went to about 12 different high schools. If my memory serves me correctly so all the time, creating AIDS awareness and and just opening up a lot of doors for a lot of people to talk, as I said before about what can be a very difficult subject and actually being on the marae was very special. Just the feeling of [00:28:30] the marae and the quilts are being very spiritual themselves and being on a Mariah, which is very spiritual, the two coming together was incredible. It's hard to explain it, really. It really was. It was. It's a feeling you won't forget, reluctant to let the quilts in actual fact out of their yes, that was that was a trust thing again that that once they came into the quilt project that we would tend and care for them as they would. And they have these reassurances that [00:29:00] yes, for sure, they would be treated with all the love and respect that is due to them. They were quite happy then to allow them to come on into the quilt project because understand these quilts, all these people I know for Robin it makes me extremely proud that although he's gone, his quilt is an educator. It's like a silent voice that speaks and it's wonderful. My guest this afternoon. Nicky Edie, who's the quilt project convenor for New Zealand, and Alan Buller, who's living with HIV. Radio Pacific. [00:29:30] Sorry, we're out. Bryce wants to test drive that new Mirage, so we'll probably be ages if we haven't rung back by five. Please phone the Mitsubishi dinner and get them to send out a search party cheering and this afternoon's programme for talking business. Compliments of Mitsubishi Motors New Zealand Limited. Thank you, Mitsubishi Motors for making an hour possible with Nicky Edie, who's the convenor for the New Zealand Quilt Project, and Alan Buller, who is living with HIV. I thought we might have [00:30:00] had a few more calls over the course of the hour, but it's been fascinating to talk, and this book is absolutely amazing. The stories from the Names Project is this available? Nicky? Yes, and from Sam Fair. We actually hope to do something very similar from our own New Zealand quilt project as we get a few more stories together and, of course, be aware that it's all a lot to do with confidence in reality, too. To publish those stories that we are allowed to. I'm surprised I haven't seen more of this on television. I really am surprised that I haven't seen some of the quilts. For example, I came over to Toledo last night when you where the names [00:30:30] project film was running, which was nominated for an Academy Award. And you had some of the New Zealand, some of the quilts there, some of the blocks from New Zealand. I mean bits of rope from around the farm. Feather bowers jewellery, you name it all attached to these amazing works of art. A painting, a portrait painting, absolutely magnificent. There's one thing I haven't asked which I thought I'd leave to the very end because it was something that touched me so deeply when you talked to me about [00:31:00] it on the phone the first time we spoke several weeks ago. And that is the size of each block. Each panel. Each panel is 6 ft by 3 ft that is representative of a grave plot and very significant. Listen, I hope your trip goes extraordinarily well to Washington DC. I hope it goes wonderfully well, Mike, I'm sure it will. Thank you. The more New Zealanders that can become aware of the quilt project and the work that you're doing the better. Thank you for your time too, Alan. This afternoon and good luck to you. And [00:31:30] thank you to Mitsubishi made. Thank you. Thanks very much, Michael. Thank you.

IRN: 513
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/aids_memorial_quilt_advert.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003959
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089253
TITLE: Radio advert for New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1990s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; HIV / AIDS; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; media; radio
DATE: 27 October 1994
YEAR: 1994
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Radio advert used to promote viewings of the New Zealand AIDS Memorial at the Manukau City Shopping Centre in late 1994. This advert was one of four that promoted viewings of the quilt around Auckland in late 1994. The quilt panels were also displayed at K-Mart Henderson, North Shore Galleria and the Alan Melville Centre.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: This week, Everyone who visits Manu City Shopping Centre will be affected by AIDS. If you visit Monaco City shopping Centre this week, you will have a chance to see the quilt project. The quilt is a living memorial to people who have died of AIDS. Visit it, see it, touch it and you will be affected by it. The quilt at Monaco City Shopping Centre from October 31st till November 6th.

IRN: 515
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/aids_memorial_quilt_nicki_eddy_1993.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004205
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089499
TITLE: Nicki Eddy and co - New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt (1993)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Beverly Jelicich; Nicki Eddy
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1990s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Beverly Jelicich; HIV / AIDS; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; Nicki Eddy
DATE: 1 October 1993
YEAR: 1993
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this radio interview Nicki, Audrey and Beverly talk about the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt and promote an upcoming silent auction fundraising event. The source of this recording is unknown (possibly a radio station in Auckland). If you know the radio station, or who the interviewer is please get in contact.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Nikki Edie, who was the convenor of the New Zealand Quilt Project who also had a brother who died of an AIDS related illness, and Beverly and Audrey, two mums whose sons died of an AIDS related illness as well. And we're talking to them this morning about this very important project here in New Zealand, the New Zealand Quilt Project, and I guess we better start with you first. Nicky is to explain to my listeners just what this quilt project is and a bit about its origins. Too. Sure, Alice. The New Zealand Quilt Project is a memorial to those [00:00:30] people we have lost to AIDS. Here in New Zealand. The New Zealand initiative comes from the American Names Project, which was founded in 1985 when the very first panel was created For a young man by the name of Marvin. This is a 6 ft by 3 ft panel which is created out of love. Can be from grief, anger, whatever they are feeling at the loss of somebody to an AIDS related illness. OK, it's [00:01:00] like a quilt, I presume it's sort of about almost a quilt. Size six by 3 6 ft by 3 ft and made out of material materials of Felts. And what it does is upon the panel. The quilt represents that person's life. They may have been a chef, so you can take look at that panel and realise Oh, this young person was a chef. Hairdressers we have right. So the very first one was back in 1985. That was in America. [00:01:30] When did we take on the quilt project here in New Zealand? 1988. Our first panel was created for a man called Peter Cuthbert and was displayed for the first time World AIDS Day for First of December 1988 in Wellington 1988. Now what is the number of quilts that you have now here in New Zealand? 72 panels That represents 128 names of people we have lost to AIDS here in New Zealand. That's quite a large number [00:02:00] that I was going to say 300 people if you lost just over 300 odd people. Now we've lost two AIDS here in New Zealand, right? So it doesn't necessarily mean that if someone loses their son or their daughter or whatever to an AIDS related illness that they're going to do a panel. But people, what motivates people to do a panel to make a panel to make a panel is a statement of unconditional love. It puts a human face behind the statistics of AIDS [00:02:30] here in New Zealand or internationally. New Zealand is one of 27 initiatives around the world quilt projects Now I believe the one in the United States is just huge. Have you seen it overwhelming? I was honoured and privileged last year to be able to take three of our New Zealand blocks to Washington DC, where we had an international unveiling. The quilt then covered 15. 5 acres that's equivalent to 14 football fields. Just back [00:03:00] to back quilts, rows and rows of quilts representing again. As I said before, well over 27 nationalities from around the world must have been a very moving thing, though there must be just this energy that comes from seeing these wonderful quilts that makes people sort of stop and think, and remember whether it's through feelings of anger or sorrow or whatever. There's a whole variety of emotions you must feel when you view them. Definitely ours, definitely [00:03:30] the I guess the initial reaction is the one of loss. But out of a loss comes this overwhelming love, and nothing's going to stop us to say to the world that we do not have a cure for HIV, the virus which causes the AIDS related illnesses, and that the only education we have is well informed information and love, understanding and sharing. That and this quilt. The quilt [00:04:00] presents a human phase, as I've already said behind the statistics, and that people stop and take notice and think to themselves when they've seen them on display here in New Zealand. This is happening here at home in God's own. That's right. It's not something that's just happening. You see on a six o'clock headlines, how did you become involved? I became involved in 1991 just after I lost my 33 year old brother to AIDS related illnesses in the May of 91 [00:04:30] in October 91. We were having the very first unveiling in Auckland here, with Dame Keith Tesar in attendance for the New Zealand Court Project, and I was asked at that point by people that were volunteers that were working with the P to create a panel for Rob. Right? And can we ask what you have on your panel for your brother Rob? Rob has all his nieces and nephews handprints upon it. They were very important people in his life. He has Waiheke Island. Robin was born on Waiheke [00:05:00] Island many years ago and he has Australia because he lived off and on in Australia and America for 12 years roses because they were his most favourite flower and a couple of verses that we just think are very special. Particularly, I think it's the old Irish farewell verse. May the road rise up to me, too. That verse is upon and just his favourite colours, [00:05:30] just something that was representative of the person that he was. Now. Did you make this yourself, or did someone else make it for you or we create them, the families or whoever wants to who is connected? Panels are created by the families and friends, partners of those that we lose to AIDS, and when they are ready only when they are ready to then give it to the New Zealand Quilt Project to become the custodian I guess you could call it, and we, in turn, take the quilt out into schools to [00:06:00] display. This really makes a huge impact on our youth again. Once again, this is not just a figure they're seeing on a blackboard or something in a textbook from school. This represents 72 people's lives. We're actually very lucky here in New Zealand. We have quite a unique block whereby the Kiwi kids living with AIDS Trust created their own block. And that's really unique in the world because it was the 13 families here in New Zealand that have Children living with [00:06:30] HIV or AIDS. They had, and they created their own whole big block, and that was really neat. It's really quite colourful, isn't it? I can imagine that. So obviously, when you do a quilt, it's partly a healing process, but also, I guess, helps you through. The grieving, too. Would I'd be right here if I can just bring Audrey and Beverly in, too. When you were involved with your son's quilts, [00:07:00] was it Did it help you through the grieving process at the loss of a son, either, If you like to start first of all, Yes, it definitely did. It was very healing, right? Lots of emotions are felt while you're making them happy ones. Sad ones. But yes, it's definitely a healing thing. Quite therapeutic, really. Yes, it must be quite constructive to do something like that on the loss of a loved one, because you put all your love and your feelings and emotions into that quilt, don't you? And I guess they take a little [00:07:30] while to make, do they? Yes, some people take longer than others. You just do it slowly as you feel right, and as ideas of things that you want to go on. It can't always rush it, and sometimes it takes a while to to actually hand it over to the project because you want to hang on to it. In the end, it's become so special because it's a part of that person, I guess letting it go well, just [00:08:00] talking, because we're going to come back to Beverly and Audrey in a moment and hear more of their stories. You talked about taking it to the schools. What's the reaction to young people when you talk about about AIDS related illnesses? Is there this realisation dawning on a lot of young people these days that there is a need for protected sex because I have heard of young people who at the moment think it's really cool to have unprotected sex for sure. And this is what worries me immensely is that there are some out there taking [00:08:30] terrible risks with their lives. I guess before being through it as teenagers, we tend to feel we are immortal and we're going to live on forever and that this is something that actually happens to somebody else. Well, if not, we know it's not. We definitely know that it's not something that happens to somebody else. HIV AIDS affects everybody. It doesn't matter your race, your colour, your creed, your sexuality. It happens to each and every one of us. And by viewing the quilt because it has become such a powerful visual tool, [00:09:00] these students are beginning to sit up and think, Oh, Lord, this is something that affects me. Often when we are in schools, we have somebody that is living with the virus, come along and speak as well, and again that brings it home just that much closer that morning, they may have not known being directly affected by the virus, but by being confronted by somebody living with the virus, suddenly it affects them. [00:09:30] And we hope it's something they remember for the rest of their days, because I think the thing that comes out here this morning, too, is that to get the AIDS related the HIV virus, you don't have to be gay. You don't have to share needles. You can be a heterosexual person who is out there having unprotected sex who just happens to have sex with the wrong person. True, Alice, would you ladies agree with this? I mean, I think a lot of people still tend to think AIDS goes with gay people or with people [00:10:00] who are perhaps intravenous drug users, right? That's true and not discriminating. The whole thing is that AIDS never was never will be. Never has been a gay related illness, never, unfortunately, that statistically that yes, it did hit in the Western world, our gay community is hard as fast as first, but never was solely that I think the perfect example of this has come out at the moment with the man [00:10:30] who has caused a lot of fear in the community with perhaps spreading the AIDS virus to a number of women. And I mean, this has come out to show that it is not just the domain of gay people talk about. You've got a special evening and then I quickly I promise you, Audrey and Beverly, we're getting to you over here with your stories. But you've got a very special evening coming up. And I'd like you to tell people what's going to happen on that evening and perhaps why they should attend Yes, On the 30th of October at the Mandalay New Market, the New Zealand Corp project is having [00:11:00] another fundraiser in the form of a silent auction in Cabaret. We have many wonderful entertainers on board for the evening who are giving their time free of our patron, Jeannette McDonald and her off sider, Gary McCormick, will be there. We have Grant Bridger, Lynn, Lakin Beaver. All these wonderful people that are going to be the entertainment and the funds we raise from the evening will go towards the travel of the quilt displays around [00:11:30] New Zealand for educational purposes. We are hoping next year to perhaps put up some I would like to see more HIV AIDS awareness and Prevention week set up. The quilt has travelled now to most of the major centres in the country. At the present moment, it's away in the wrapper region Wellington being hosted by the sexual health services down there and they are going. They have been on to marae where again it opens the door for our [00:12:00] Maori people to be able to speak about something that has been very difficult for them and that is right. And so it's opened up an awful lot of doors for the quilt in itself has opened up a lot of doors for other health care people. To be able to go in and say, Well, this is what we need to do in this area. So it's Saturday night, the 30th of October at 7 30 at the Mandalay. Where can people get tickets and how much do they cost? [00:12:30] The tickets will be on sale at the door on the night only they will be $10. We've kept the costs down as low as possible so that if you're a person that is living on a benefit, you can at least come and have a really neat night worth of entertainment for $10. And for those that are more affluent, we're hoping that we'll buy the items from the silent auction. At this point, I would like to thank the businesses in the Auckland community that have donated items to the silent auction. [00:13:00] Hope it's a tremendous success. It sounds like the ones in the past have been wonderful. And this one we too well, Beverly and Audrey, I just wondered if you could just quickly perhaps Beverly Audrey first. OK, we'll start with you first. Audrey, if you can just share a little bit about what happened to you and to your son, just whatever you want to share and the importance of the quilt project to you, the quilt of quilt project is that the memorial? It's a beautiful visible [00:13:30] thing, the quote and it is an ongoing memorial to a person. Um, so, yes, How long ago did you lose your son to AIDS? January 1991. He was 27. Yes, it's the most terrible illness. It's awful to go through, but, um, how far in advance of that did you find out that your son had AIDS. We had [00:14:00] only known that he was HIV positive for about two years previous to him dying. He had known a few years before that, but he obviously didn't want to tell us. Wanted to spare us, I suppose, as long as he could. And he was quite well until the last year. So he was a lot luckier than some people with the virus because he was able to get out and about, Really? In fact, he was actually driving his car two nights before he died in hospital. So he was a pretty determined type. And yes, [00:14:30] but some, of course, are sick for a lot longer that they have to stay in bed. Were you able to accept what had happened to him? I mean, I know no one can. But as regards perhaps the reasons why he got a being gay, Yes. Were you able to accept that the being gay was never a problem, right? He was just one of the family, and the sexual preferences didn't matter. Our whole family's father, everyone accepted him, was, was. Obviously, [00:15:00] being gay was never an issue. But when and we always or I always thought he'll be one of the lucky ones and he won't get the virus. And even when he had the virus, you think he might still just be a carrier and never get the age related illnesses. But of course, the inevitable happens. So that was the tragedy. And that is, it takes a long, long time to get over. I'm sure it does. Did you have good support, though, of family and friends during the last year, perhaps of the time? [00:15:30] Yes, yes, we did. We didn't really meet with much prejudice, not our particular family, our case and lots people do, and it's very cruel. It's the prejudice that must be the hardest. I think it must be. The cruellest thing of all is that people can be so prejudiced and you know the old saying there. But for the grace of God, go, you or I can happen to anyone daughter or son. When we look at these days, gay or heterosexual or whatever, people need to understand more and show them love and [00:16:00] acceptance and because I think the thing that came out in Bryce Courtney's book April Fools' Day about his son was he was surrounded by love. Anyway, he had a son who was, I think, a haemophilia who got the AIDS related virus that way. But he talked of one young man in the bed opposite his son and Nikki, You can talk about that. That young man, Jon Baker, has just had a panel created [00:16:30] by a person in re who read this book and wanted Jon Baker to be remembered. So I felt I had a few tears in my office the other day when this panel arrived. This young man, because his family deserted him. They weren't there when he died. He died apart from. And he already said I was one man surrounded by so much love and understanding, and this one person who had nobody there with him. That really mattered to him at the end. [00:17:00] And as I say, this woman in Whangarei has sent this panel down, and Jon Baker will lovely. That's lovely, because I think that's one of the biggest tragedies of that of the whole AIDS thing is that they should die alone because of what they've got, you know, through prejudice of one form or another, that people can't their sons and their daughters. They can't bring themselves to be there for their final days or whatever. Heartbreaking. Yes, Beverley, can you just share a little bit of your story, [00:17:30] too? For you? You mentioned Alice the song there. But for Fortune Go, you or I. It happens to be one of my favourite songs by Joan Baez, because you often think that something like that is never going to affect your family. My son Michael died in 1989. He was 26 when he was 17. I found out that he was gay. I actually asked him, and that wasn't a problem for our family either. He was accepted for what he was and as a gay [00:18:00] person, and he felt good about himself as a gay person. When he was about 23 he went for the test, and I remember him coming home and saying the bad news he had to tell us and how he just felt so pleased that he had the sort of appearance he could come and tell this to. And he had intended to go overseas to Europe. And he said, Well, I'm going to do what I want to do and not let this affect my future life, which I'm glad he did [00:18:30] and he travelled overseas. But he was one of the unfortunate ones that the virus progressed very quickly to AIDS and he only survived about three years with the virus. He came home towards the end of his illness and he was home in New Zealand for three months, which was a very special time, and I visited him overseas when he was ill. That was very hard seeing the difference in the sun who had gone away and the son that was facing me at the airport. [00:19:00] But as Audrey says, the only important thing is love and acceptance, and what the court has done for me is show the human face of the illness. Each person we have lost is somebody's son, brother, sister, lover. And as I said, it just puts a human face to the illness, and that's the important thing about it. And it's the only thing we have to break down the stigma and prejudice about the illness because [00:19:30] I did encounter that you did encounter the prejudice statements that people said like the ones I feel sorry for are the hemophilias and the Children with AIDS. It's more or less pointing a finger of saying gay people deserve it. And that made me very, very angry. Yes, that would be very, very hard. Nobody deserves. Nobody deserves to get cancer either. You know, I mean, you just It's such a shame that people have the prejudice because of [00:20:00] someone's sexuality towards this. And as mothers, you know, there are your sons who died in front of your very eyes with this illness, and to have somebody say that kind of thing to you is just so cruel. And, you know, we just hope that as a result of these projects that more people are going to have more understanding about it and see that it has a human face, as you say. And so, obviously, for both of you, having those quilts made was very, very special and very, very important. Right for you. And for you [00:20:30] too, Beverly. Yes, I think it addresses the uniqueness of everybody. We have lost a unique human being. Any final words just before we finish? I just wondered that out of all this personal tragedy that you have experienced, is there anything that you have learned that you'd like to pass on to my listeners today. Just some one little thing, perhaps that you want to say to them. I would like to say Love your Children unconditionally. That is the only important thing that [00:21:00] when you're on your own death bed to be loved by your Children and to love them and do anything from you they're Audrey to And to get life generally into perspective, don't let the little things spoil your days. Just live for every day and just think of the big tragedies and then the small ones just won't seem big at all. Right? Well, I hope that we've all gained a little bit of something from this, and I hope that there will be a lot of people turn up to the quilt project [00:21:30] coming up on the 30th of October. That's two week, this coming Saturday night at the Mandalay at 7 30. It's going to be a wonderful evening with the silent auction, the cabaret, lots of wonderful people taking part. So, folks, if you get a chance to go along to that, I'm sure that you would enjoy the evening and continued success with the quilt project too, Nikki. I hope that you're going to reach a lot more people with it and perhaps as a result of it, get a lot more understanding. And Audrey and Beverly, thank you very much, too. To both of you for braving [00:22:00] the nerves of sitting in front of a microphone and coming in sharing with us today. Thanks so much for your time. Thank you.

IRN: 514
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/aids_memorial_quilt_gilbert_smith.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003958
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089252
TITLE: Gilbert Smith - New Zealands AIDS Memorial Quilt
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Gilbert Smith
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1990s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Gilbert Smith; HIV / AIDS; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt
DATE: 1 October 1993
YEAR: 1993
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this radio interview Gilbert talks about the history of the quilt in New Zealand and promotes an upcoming silent auction fundraising event. The source of this recording is unknown (possibly a radio station in Auckland). If you know the radio station, or who the interviewer is please get in contact.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Tell us about your project. The quilt project, right. The New Zealand Corp project was started in 1988 in New Zealand. Um, it was originally founded in the United States in 1985 and it was founded as a memorial to the people we lost through AIDS and, um, in New Zealand. Um, we currently have, uh, 72 panels, and that represents 100 and 28 names in New Zealand. 100 and 2800 and 28 names we have on the panels. The panels consist of, [00:00:30] um, 88 quilts make up a panel, and the panels are they tour the country and we have put them into the high schools. We take them into the high schools, and we use them as an educational tool, um, to place awareness where it's most needed with the youth of the, um of the country to put a human face to the AIDS virus and to educate, um, in that way. What sort of response have you had? A terrific response. Um, we [00:01:00] are currently trying to raise more funds to take the, um, the panels through more schools throughout New Zealand. Um, we've done most of the high schools in the Auckland area And, uh, and, uh, the lower half of the the lower half of the North Island. We're gradually working our way through there, and hopefully, um, we plan to do the south Island, um, into the next next year. But, of course, it all, um, takes a little bit of money there. Um, [00:01:30] who's working on the quilt? Who actually puts it right. The quilts are made. They're put together by loved ones. Family and friends all get together and they make a quilt. Um, not everyone, of course, makes a quilt for someone for various reasons in their life. But, um, the quilts are created out of love, and it's a way of expressing their grief or their anger at losing a loved one. And then when they feel the time is right, they actually give [00:02:00] the quilt to the quilt project, and we become the custodians of the quilt. And, um, it just puts this human face on the AIDS virus. It's also parallels in other countries. They're also putting together quilts. Are they? Yes, they are in the United States. Last year, they, um they had, um a big, um, stage of quilts, um, put on in Washington last October and they had 16 acres. Um, set aside to display the quilt, [00:02:30] um, from 27 countries around the world. So, um, we, uh, are not isolated in the virus. So the courts project was started to put a human face to the AIDS virus and very good educate some interesting research lately finding prostitutes in Nairobi, about 29 of them. Very encouraging. Very encouraging indeed. And also being able to find a little bit about how the virus replicates and how the virus invades [00:03:00] healthy cells in the immune system. So those are two promising lines of research, so hopefully they're on to something there. We have a fund raising, um, silent auction and Cabaret, which goes on sat this coming Saturday in the Mandalay new market. Um, so we hope that people will come along and, um, enjoy the night. We have Jeannette McDonald and Gary McCormick. Um, they're going to [00:03:30] be there and keep the evening buzzing along. We have the whole cast of Shortland Street. They're doing a sketch called, um, that's based on all the lost bits that they haven't done in Shortland Street. So that's going to be, um, really good. Grant Bridge is going to be there. The big band, where and when will that be? Uh, this is this coming Saturday at the Mandala New Market, and it kicks off from 7 30 will go through till [00:04:00] the early hours of the morning, and it's called a auction. And if people are not aware what a silent auction is, they're given a bid card as they come in the door with a number on it. And, um, there are sheets on the tables beside the item that they wish to bid for, and they just write their bid number and how much they want to bid for it. And it's, um, there will be over 200 items on display on the tables, and they just have a good time. The big band plays away and they [00:04:30] go around and the bars open. There'll be food. We very much appreciate Robert Ellis's Tapestry in the Centre, which shows us what men and women can do together when they weave together. It's an old Maori idea, too, to weave, weave, weave, unite tu tu tu tu. So thanks for weaving this discussion with us tonight. Gilbert Smith. Thank you very much. See you Saturday night, seven. Thank you. At the Mandalay.

IRN: 509
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/thats_so_gay.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003957
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089251
TITLE: Thats So Gay
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Anny da Silva Freitas; Harlyn Wilkinson; Harriet Lane Tobin; Isla Findlay; Keith Labad; Toni Regan
INTERVIEWER: Jo Jackson / Grizz
TAGS: 2010s; Anny da Silva Freitas; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bats Theatre; Harlyn Wilkinson; Harriet Lane Tobin; Isla Findlay; Jo Jackson / Grizz; Keith Labad; Matthew Shepard; School's Out (Wellington); Stefanie Upchurch; That's So Gay (play); The Laramie Project; Toi Whakaari (Wellington); Toni Regan; Wellington; arts; clicking; coming out; education; growing up; homophobia; human rights; identity; images online; labels; media; performance; photography; school; sexuality; so gay; stereotypes; support; youth
DATE: 25 April 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: On the eve of a sell-out season at Bats Theatre, Grizz talks to the cast and crew of That's So Gay about how the production was devised and performed. The production ran from 26-28 April 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, my name is Griz also Joanna or Annie or Joe or a lot of other things. And, um, I'm a part of the that so gay collaborative project with toy and schools out. Um and yeah, I thought we'd We'd have a bit of a bit of a wee interview with a bunch of the cast and so on and crew about schools out. Um, so this is this is Keith. Say hi, Keith. Keith? Yeah. Um, So yeah. What? What What's the production about? Tell us. Tell us a bit about [00:00:30] it. Well, basically, to me, the production is a whole bunch of stories we've collected from youths around Wellington, and we've kind of dramatised. We've dramatised their stories and put them on the stage so people can get an idea of what it's like and see, like different perspectives and different stories about growing up queer. Right? Right. So, uh, can you tell us a bit about the devising process? Annie, How it how it sort of happened, how you turn these stories into into a play? I certainly can. Um however, I do think Tony might be better at doing that, so [00:01:00] I'm going to pass the buck a wee bit here. So this is this is Tony, who's the director of the play? Do you want to tell us a bit about it? Yeah, sure. Um well, what we worked. I studied Moises Kaufman last year, who was is the director of the Laramie Project, and he worked with a company and, um, took his company down to Laramie, um, and interviewed the whole town. There was a there was a murder of a young gay man, and over two years, the company actors and designers and [00:01:30] himself worked with the residents to find out their stories and then turn them into moments. So that was a process that I wanted to use with the cast and crew or some of the crew as well. So we, um, came and talked with schools out. Um, and you shared your stories. And first of all, we all of us share a wee story that was somehow related to being gay or queer or, um, transgender, or even even straight. So we shared those stories, [00:02:00] first of all, and then reflected, um, as a cast as a company back to each other about those stories and then We took those stories and we made moments. So when we were making moments, we were looking for content and form to create moments. And, uh, we've got 18 moments in the play and we together, you guys, we all created the moments, and then we gave each other feedback on them, so we keep developing them and devising them. So we've devised the play over three months, and even [00:02:30] even two days ago, we were still crafting moments. So you're making, you know, tweaking them. So it's been a really live process, and we've all worked together to give feedback on those moments and to shape the play. And then we had some writers as well, working with us to to work on some of the content. But it's been a total collaborative process, Would you say? Yeah, definitely. I think everyone everyone agree. Yeah. Um, so we we're doing something a bit bit different, um, in in the play, which hasn't been done in a lot of places [00:03:00] before. Which is the clicking. Do you wanna tell us a bit about that? Is, um Well, as we were working on devising moments of the play, we found that as feedback. We were very good at talking on top of one another. So we decided that when we agreed with what someone was saying instead of having to vocalise it, we would click it instead. And so we've decided to incorporate this into our production as well, so that the audience becomes involved with the production. So [00:03:30] when the audience feels that they agree or resonate, relate to what's happening on stage, they click. And the cast not performing in the scene will also be clicking so that we have this resonance within the room between the cast and the audience. Cool. That's exactly right. And I Yeah, um what? What do you think about Annie? Do you think How how do you feel that we sort of, um, incorporating all audience involvement? Because that's one of the primary primary things we're trying to do. Is that right? [00:04:00] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, a lot of the audience is our community, and they've come to support us. And also it's an opportunity for them to play a part in questioning or thinking about some of the stories that come up or moments and, uh, an opportunity to, I guess, to be connected with some of those stories, so Yeah, totally. Um, harry slash Max. Um, can you tell us a bit about, uh, how how the how the devising process has sort of affected you, how [00:04:30] you're surprised by it and how, um, how you feel. It's sort of if if you feel it's impacted on you at all. Um, I think it kind of gave a realisation that we're kind of closer connected than we thought we were before. Like we already knew. We were quite, you know, connected. I realise I can't see my hand gestures, but But, like, I realise that we're all very similar. And we can kind of relate to each other, even even only slightly, You know, like, we've got a more deeper understanding of of each [00:05:00] other as well as ourselves. I think that makes sense. So, um, Tony, can you tell us a bit about, uh, sort of the purpose of the play? What? We're what we are hoping to achieve through the play and why it's important. Yeah, sure. Um, well, I guess I guess if we go back to the original idea for that's so gay, which, um really came from Annie, who is co producing it and then and in it as well. And she, um she's [00:05:30] my partner, but she's also a counsellor and youth worker and she for several years, Um, I guess heard that that phrase that slang kind of term, that's so gay, which really when I hear it feels like a put down. And it's another form of homophobia, really. And, um, it seems to like be quite prolific within, uh, youth culture. Although I've noticed now as well, it's also creeping into adults who are using that. [00:06:00] So, um, originally over a year ago, um, Annie had the idea to create a performance, a play that would tour that was called that so gay to really, um, to challenge that. So we took that idea and then as part of my master's in directing, um, one of the projects I had to do is it was a community project, and the per and we had already come and seen schools out and talked with some of you about a We play. Uh, no, no. A [00:06:30] wee short film that I'd written to get feedback, and I thought, Well, this could be a good job opportunity to work with schools out, which is a community group to, um, show their stories. And and, um and the main purpose of the of the community project is to have the community group being reflected back to itself to help it see itself and hear its voice. So, um, and talking with you guys, what we wanted to do was say, Well, do you wanna do you wanna say something? And do you want to put something on stage? [00:07:00] Um, particularly something through a queer lens or a gay lens or, you know, your your stories. So we were keen to explore homophobia and transphobia. Um, but really, ultimately, it was going to be your stories and what you wanted to say and what you wanted to put on stage. So I guess the P the the main purpose, really is to reflect your stories back to schools out and back to the community. And what it's becoming now is, um I guess the purpose [00:07:30] is to share those stories with each other with the community, the groups who come and see us. But also we are challenging homophobia. We've we've all chosen to keep the name of the players that's so gay. So we really are also, um, challenging that that statement that put down Really? Yeah, but yeah, but doing it in a way that also comes at it in different ways. So maybe people get a bit of an insight into what it's like being a young [00:08:00] person today. Who is gay, lesbian, trans, bisexual, pansexual, asexuals, same sex attracted and exactly. And I I've learned lots, too, through doing it cool. Um, and and do you feel like the play has sort of reached that goal that we've We've done what we aim to do? Um, I absolutely I think one of the big things that I've noticed is the amount of ripple effects that that it that it will generate. So this is a piece [00:08:30] that will be on for maybe three nights. But I know people already are planning to come in groups to see the show and then have discussions after the show. And I think it's about providing an opportunity with this ongoing questioning of terms, Um, exploring different truths, uh, being respectful and, um, just increasing awareness around how hurtful it can be to be on the receiving end end of a pejorative statement like that that really think about what comes after [00:09:00] the word or the words that So what can that word be? So it's just about Yeah, so I think absolutely. And it will continue. So, yeah, um, I know that we had a few issues in, um, trying to stay true to the some of the stories that were told and turning them into, um, theatre moments. So do do you feel like we managed to do that successfully, Kim, I think we did. In the end, um, it again, it wouldn't have happened if we weren't working in collaboration. I think because I think we all, [00:09:30] like, had to come together and realise that we had to portray these stories better. So part way through the process, we actually came to this conclusion, and we changed the stories to make them represent more actually happened and not just give them, like a blatantly happy ending, like so, while that might not sit with some people, on the other hand, we're actually telling what happened and giving, uh, more realistic, perhaps account of what actually happened. I think as well and I'd be interested to hear from the others, too. Is why [00:10:00] we, um Why we towards the end started to, you know, reflect the stories more because I think I've been learning, um, how to devise this kind of theatre. And I think we all have as well, so yeah, maybe as a as a company, too. We've been learning about how to make a moment, how to put something dramatise it. So it's going on stage, but that it also reflects the story. So I mean, I know I've really been learning, but I'll be interested to hear from some of the others as well as about Why? [00:10:30] Why has the process been the way it's been? How how do you feel about that, Max? Um, yeah, I feel I think at first we were more kind of focused on, you know, ideas of the stories, not the stories as what they were. And I think I think it was good that later on we came to the realisation that we needed to more focus on what the stories were because, like even as Tony has said, it's about reflection, and I think we wouldn't have got that reflection as effective if we [00:11:00] took away kind of the essence of what the story really were. So I think that was quite a good thing. So, um, I would you say that the tone of the overall play after after all of this debate about the happy endings or to keep the solemn the solemnness of of the of the stories, how how would you feel that the play comes across? Do you think it's a happy play or a sad play? Or I don't think you can really say that the play is either happy or sad, because every moment has its own unique sort of quality. So there will be sad moments in the play, and there will be [00:11:30] moments of joy and happiness. But overall, I think the play comes together and you feel not necessarily happy or sad, but more that it's completed and that this is what it is, and this is who we are. I think I think that's quite quite an interesting sentiment. You know this. This is who we are, and I think that's that's kind of what the what the players is trying to express. Do you guys agree? Absolutely. And and it's also not, um, like we've talked about having a a gift day at to share. [00:12:00] These are and these are our stories. And, um, it's not to go. These are our stories. Listen, cry here, laugh there. Whatever. You know, all we're doing is opening up our hearts and our minds and sharing that and for me like because when we first told stories, we told them in a circle and we reflected back. And for me, humans have been doing that for aeons. That's what we do share stories. And sometimes we don't get an opportunity to really share stories and be witnessed by others in our [00:12:30] in our culture or in our group. And I think as well that for youth and for queer stories, they often quite quite a lot. Don't get hurt. And don't get put on the main stage. Yeah, and I. I just want to kind of I think the challenge has been at times Is it the process that's important, that drives something, or is it the outcome? And I think that in terms of the process, we we didn't know each other at the very beginning. So even just building trust and get and building relationships within our cast or within our company [00:13:00] means that people have been able to really speak their truth. And there's also been a a challenge between a theatre framework and a community framework. And so it's keeping true to the real essence of those stories. And they are, truthfully, we're truthfully telling those stories right here, right now. And again, if those stories were told in a year's time, things might change our our view of that might change. But we're we're reflecting our stories right here, right now. So, [00:13:30] max slash Harry. Yeah, Um what? What do you think that you will take away from from the process from the devising of the play and the performance? I think friendships for one. Like I met a lot of people that I wouldn't probably meet otherwise and like the way that we kind of bonded in such a short period of time. I found quite remarkable in itself. Um and also I feel not. I feel like I'm [00:14:00] not taking it away, but I feel like I'm helping as a guide for better awareness of issues like we all are like, I think we're doing it in quite. I think as I discussed with my mom, we're doing quite a remarkable thing, and we're all being quite brave. And I have, like, a complete respect for the bravery of like, every one of you. I think it's nice. Would you agree with that? Yeah, I agree. I think that what we are gaining from this play is more what we're giving to everyone else with this play. So we've all [00:14:30] had a chance to share our stories with each other, which gave us the opportunity to know each other better, understand each other better. And that's in turn what we're going to give to the audience, these same stories in a more dramatised way. But the essence is still there, and it's just that we want people to know that we're out there, that there are queer youth who live through these experiences that we have. What about you and gosh, there's a few, um, one being [00:15:00] slightly older than the rest of the cast by about 20 years. But, um uh I think the biggest thing has been about a reminder of, uh, not making assumptions. And I, uh, I have been challenged in this in this process on many levels. Relationship, Um, interrelationship. Being mouthy, knowing when to hold back all of that stuff and working out What is my What's the purpose of this? And so I've been really [00:15:30] hugely admiring of, um maybe a reminder of how ignorant I might have been thinking. I've been really onto it. But the the cast, the people that I've been surrounded by have been a really good upfront challenge for me. And so I I I've taken I will. I'll reflect on this more. I like to think that I've given. But I also have taken a lot from this experience. Yeah. What about you? What do you think you're going to take away from the from the devising process and the performance of the play? Well, time management [00:16:00] for one incredibly hectic, but as well as I agree with Annie, um, I've learned a lot just by working with everyone here and kind of like, Yeah, I've I I thought that I knew, knew a lot about, like, the queer community and whatnot and that I thought that I was like, I don't know, correct like, But then, like learning all these different stories, I realise that there's so much more that I [00:16:30] could know and understand about people. So I think by working with everyone I get, I'm taking out a better sense of knowing people like I don't know, but yeah. So, uh, the place sold out. Yeah. Yeah. Um what are there any plans for? The future of the play is what What's gonna happen from here? Well, that really depends on all of us. And when we began, um, originally, the idea was to go to [00:17:00] school, and, um, but then we had the great opportunity to do it at that. So I think once we have, um, once we've finished, um, we will talk about, you know, as a company, what it is we want to do with the play. I mean, it would be great if we could take it to schools, you know, and then generate some that that they generate some discussion. But, um, we want to be invited to do that, so I mean, it depends on what we're all doing. You know how busy we're [00:17:30] gonna be? I've got to finish my master's and we've got people working, you know, varsity, all sorts of things school. Exactly. Exactly. So, um, who knows? But I'm sure it could potentially have another life somewhere. Yeah, totally. Um, so yeah. What? What? What do you guys feel like? Like the audience will be taking away from this just just to just to wrap up. What? What? What do we hope that someone coming to the play will walk away thinking about? [00:18:00] I think we want them to walk away thinking about what it is that makes up this community. So how all of us interact together with each other and how they can be a part of that too. How involved they are, even if they don't realise that they are with the queer community. Because there's always someone most people will find. They'll always know someone or be related to someone who will be queer. And [00:18:30] that's something that everybody has to learn to, like, work with and accept and grow with. Um yeah and I. I feel because, you know, a lot of people coming are people who will be in support or be, you know, say past members of schools out or facilitators of schools out. You know, people who are connected to the company quite directly. And also, I think, as well as giving us time to reflect it will give them a way to [00:19:00] reflect because say, there'll be a moment and they'll be like, I remember that like I was there when that happened, you know, type thing. So I think it'll be really good way. Just a general reflection for all. I think I hope the audience will be entertained. Um, and kind of Yeah, I like I like to think that that also, um I can't think of the words anymore, but they also get the same ideas or maybe come to different ideas, but just have to think [00:19:30] about it and reflect upon the stories and what it means to them. But get to, um I guess for me it's probably something around pride and, um, being really proud of who you are. And I know that the Youth week, um, slogan this year is something like, Be be proud in your own skin or love the skin you're in. So I think that would be it in a nutshell. Love the skin that you're in and be proud.

IRN: 512
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/aids_memorial_quilt_michele_cinq_mars.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003956
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089250
TITLE: Michele Cinq-Mars - NAMES Project AIDS Memorial Quilt
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Michele Cinq-Mars
INTERVIEWER: Ian Kember
TAGS: 1990s; AIDS Memorial Quilt; HIV / AIDS; Ian Kember; Michele Cinq-Mars; NAMES Project; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; San Francisco; United States of America
DATE: 26 June 1991
YEAR: 1991
LOCATION: San Francisco, San Francisco, United States of America
CONTEXT: Michele Cinq-Mars, Director of Communications for the NAMES Project, talks to Ian Kember about the AIDS Memorial Quilt. This recording was possibly made at the offices of the NAMES Project on Market Street. Ian recorded the interview for the Gay BC radio programme in Wellington, but also deposited it with the New Zealand AIDS Quilt, allowing it to be heard more widely.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: You've been involved with the quilt project. For how long? Michelle? I just had my one year anniversary with the Names project last week. And how did you first become involved? I learned about the quote first when it was displayed in Washington DC in 1988. I was working on the American Response to AIDS Campaign for the Centres for Disease Control, which is one of the departments run by the federal government. Um, [00:00:30] a group of colleagues and myself who were working on that particular campaign chose to go to the quilt exhibit in Washington that year, and at that point I met a lot of the key people and, uh, learned of the quilts involvement or learned of the quilts, purpose and existence. Then, in 1989 on a freelance basis, I assisted the local Washington crew in helping them with that particular display. You remember what it was like [00:01:00] when you first saw the and how you felt I was overwhelmed. To this day, I do not know of another memorial that has struck me in the same way that the quilt has. When you walk into a cemetery in America, you see names When you see the Vietnam Memorial in the United States again, you see names. When you see the quilt, you see more [00:01:30] than names you see lives. You see people, you see hobbies you see likes and dislikes, and men and women and Children. It's a cross spectrum truly of the United States and of the epidemic internationally. Uh, there's been nothing in comparison in my life. It's almost as if, um if they are the survivors or the the the people who have died in an air crash. It's so random and across such a wide spectrum. Is that how you think? [00:02:00] Yes, in that, Um, all the people who were represented on the quilt are all there for the same reason they all died of AIDS, and that is the the political empowerment behind its origin. Um, the difficulty comes together when you see how many different people are affected and no rhyme or reason for it. [00:02:30] When you have a plane crash, something failed on that one plane. When you're talking about the AIDS epidemic, it's very difficult to pinpoint error. It's, um, lack of education. If anything, what's your involvement with the project now? Currently, I'm the director of communications for the Names project. So my task are to work with the local host committees specifically in the United States, who are preparing for a quilt display. [00:03:00] So in Dartmouth, New Hampshire, for their display, I help them promote it, or I give them the materials to promote it locally so that they can then get a large amount of people to go to their display. Yeah, I'm just looking at your wall behind you in the map of the United States, and I'm just wondering, Are there hot zones and cold zones? Are there zones which are more responsive, more more supportive of having a full there than others? I'm looking at the redneck middle Spal [00:03:30] belt there. At the moment, you would think that might be the case, and yet there is support wherever we have gone. The quilt draws that out in people. Cleve mentioned that you would have to be a stone not to be able to feel what the the message that the quilt is trying to give you when you're at a display or when you actually see it in front of you. I think that's really the case. Certainly there are people that don't believe in the quilt or don't [00:04:00] believe that gay and lesbians should exist or that people with age should continue to live. And yet we have received an overwhelming amount of support, everything from being nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize to the winning of the Academy Award for common threads to just playing Jane and Joe coming out to a display in Montana. In the press release I was looking at earlier, you were making some explanations about the difference between being an AIDS victim and being a person with [00:04:30] AIDS. And and I know my listening, listening audience will know something about the difference between that. Have you had any impact on the media of that kind of information? I think every little bit counts. We are certainly not alone in putting out that message or trying to get folks to understand that it is people are not victim and that individuals are continuing to live with the virus and that they are not. It's not an automatic death sentence upon knowing that you're infected. [00:05:00] Um, I think because we're part of a larger body that is working towards this change, that yes, we have made an impact. I don't I can't say that I'd be willing to measure that impact. But certainly it helps. And I've seen the media respond in the past. In my 23 years watching the epidemic and the news stories that result because of it, you do see a change. I was just looking at your itinerary as to where the quilt is going to be travelling to, and it's very extensive. Very extensive. [00:05:30] Uh, programme. Uh, is it the same quilt that's travelled to all centres? It is not the same modular units that Cleve described, but it is all part of the same name, part of Gates Memorial Quilt. So in other words, there are different panels that are going to each one of these displays. But, um, it's all part of the same quote. When the quilt appeared in Washington, was that the total quilt? Then every panel that was yes, actually, all [00:06:00] three times in 1987 the quilt was displayed all together with almost 2000 panels. Then, in 1988 there were almost 9000 panels and then 1989. There were more than 10,000, and today We're at more than 14,000 and we're considering returning with the quilt and in its entirety to Washington DC in 1992. That's something that we are trying to make happen on your war. 1992. [00:06:30] That's what you have in mind that the thing that will be sure that you probably have the same president at that time, and that seems to be a big problem. You do a bit a bit more as to how George Bush has been difficult for you here for the AIDS cause. He certainly has not pulled through on a couple of issues that we are very concerned about. He hasn't lifted the immigration restrictions to make [00:07:00] it possible for individuals who are HIV positive to enter the country for the international conferences that are held or for quote displays. If you're talking about our own entity, there has been an increase in funding over the past decade, but there certainly wasn't as much attention paid to it at the beginning of the decade, and it's difficult to wage right now whether that increase in funding is really trickling down to [00:07:30] the local communities that need it. A lot of it is is distributed throughout the government bureaucracy. How was working on the AIDS school changed or affected you as a as a job as a career for you? I know, but, um uh, A career. Oh. Oh, that's a difficult one. I was talking with somebody the other day and and, um, saying how difficult it is to [00:08:00] separate your emotional feelings from the work that you have to do. And the proof of the pudding is that it's it's impossible. It is is my life right now. And I think that everyone here working at the names project, all 20 of us would without a doubt to say that it is our life at the moment and whether we move on from this life to do other things or whether we're content to let, um, let it stay that way until the project ends. [00:08:30] I don't know. That's an individual choice, but it certainly is a group of dedicated individuals. Here is the end of the project on site or you you mentioned that fatal red end. I just wonder whether you know something more than we do. Um, actually, no, um, we'd like to hope so. wouldn't we? Yes, yeah, you. And that's a difficult struggle. Here's me struggling with the question because it's a hard one. I want the quilt to close up and and one day because [00:09:00] I don't want to see any more of my friends and family members die of this horrible epidemic. And yet there is such a powerful educational process that happens when one views the quilt. No matter if you're familiar with the AIDS epidemic or not that, um, that kind of educational process, I think is invaluable. And so in a sense, even if we find a cure for the virus, I think, um, having that educational opportunity [00:09:30] for kids to participate in for, um, for anyone who's at risk, I think that education can still take place even if there is a cure. Now I know that you've got quite a lot of merchant dies available for sale. Have you thought of advertisers? Even in Australia and New Zealand, we have actually a quilt project in Australia. I think actually, I'm gonna have to check on that for you. And I'm not sure. I'm just thinking New Zealand magazines [00:10:00] could well carry the advertisement for you for the memorabilia. The election days you got for sale? I can. After this programme finishes, I can broadcast what is available. But no way can anyone write all that down? Right. But, um I think there would be support for the OK. What we can do is I can put you in touch with the person that is, um, part of the Quil Project in Australia. I think it's Australia, not New Zealand. And, uh, her name is Libby, and she can provide all that information to you. Um, [00:10:30] as at the foundation level, our merchandise merchandise is certainly available, and we encourage it to be sold internationally. But I just want you to make sure that, um you touch base with her so we can do that.

IRN: 570
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/cos_mark_beehre.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003955
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089249
TITLE: Mark Beehre - Creating Our Stories
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Mark Beehre
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Auckland; Mark Beehre; Men Alone - Men Together (book); Wellington; arts; gay; history; interviewing; legacy; oral history; photography; profile; social; visual arts
DATE: 20 April 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Mark Bey. I'm by training a photographer. I did my undergraduate degree at in Auckland and in the final year of my B FA, which was in 2003, I set out on a project that became, um, men alone men together. Initially, it was, in fact, two projects men alone, which was to be about men living by themselves and not necessarily queer men and men together. [00:00:30] Which was to be about, uh, a gay men of their relationships. And I had been looking at, um, the work of a number of photographers, uh, particularly New Zealand based ones. Um, and Glenn Bush is one who was quite an influence at that time, Uh, his book Working Men, which came out in the 19 eighties and featured wonderful, uh, black and white portraits of, [00:01:00] uh, working class being just prior to the, um, just prior to the reforms of genomics and included with that oral histories. And that was one of the influences at the time that I started this project and I looked at other other work as well. And there's quite a tradition of photographers accompanying their published work with, uh, text taken from recorded interviews with the subjects [00:01:30] that they photograph. Um, there was a an American book. Um, I think it was called men together, but I can't remember now. Rather photojournalistic, uh, looking at gay men and, uh, and their relationships. And that was another one that I I looked at at the time. But there's quite a, uh, quite a tradition of doing that. So I decided to use, um the recorded interviews as a compliment to [00:02:00] my photographs. Although this started as primarily a photographic project. So when you started out doing photography, were you also recording audio interviews at the same time? Or is that yes. When I started the, um, me alone, me together, I'd photograph the people, and then I'd go back on a subsequent occasion. A Actually, I do the interview first. Generally, I do. I'd record the interview first and then go back on a subsequent occasion and photograph them. What would you record the interview first? Um, [00:02:30] both sessions would, uh, would take some time where the interview takes an hour to an hour, 1 to 2 hours. Uh, and a photoshoot, the way I work will also take an hour or two hours. Um, I particularly don't like to be rushed with the photo shoot. And for most people, uh, that works better. Divide it into two sessions. People, especially when you're photographing. You don't want someone to be fatigued or bored with the process. [00:03:00] Um, so it seemed to work well to do them on two separate occasions. Um, also having the chance to spend some time in the environment where I was going to be photographing was actually useful in terms of consciously or subconsciously working out how I was going to approach the the space and the people and the lighting and all those sorts of aspects of of photography. [00:03:30] So having some familiarity with this with the place and having time to mull over that before I went back and took the photographs was actually quite an important thing. Had you done oral histories before? No. That was the first time I'd done oral history at all. I red a couple of books on oral history. Um, apart from that, I didn't have specific training, and as I said, this was really [00:04:00] done in the context of context of a, um of a photographic project. So initially the the interviews almost seemed to be ancillary. Uh, but as it worked out, um, and especially as the book came together, um, they turned out to be quite central to the project. I should say that I. I started by saying that men alone men together began as two separate projects. And as it went on, [00:04:30] it became quite clear that it really was about gay men and their relationships. And, um, the the differences between men living with a partner or a lover or in a relationship and men living on their own. So it became the two projects merged into one, and, um, and it became what you see today. The men alone. Me together. So what kind of [00:05:00] things did you read when you were researching about how to do oral histories? What were the things that you looked at? What were the resources you went to? I, um, went to the library and I looked up oral history. And as I said, I found a couple of rather well slim books on on how to conduct oral history. Um and so I read those. I wasn't aware of Internet resources at that stage. Uh, that possibly would have been some, but I wasn't aware of them. Why Oral history? What? [00:05:30] What is so useful about oral histories? From my point of view, the thing that oral history gives you in particular is, uh, an insight into people's subjective experience. And that's the difference between, uh, oral history and, um, other forms of more analytic, um, historical writing. And if we can make a an example here, [00:06:00] um, I think that's the difference between what I've done in men alone together and what Chris Brickle did in mates and lovers, where he was taking an overview. Looking at, um, patterns in society, looking at historical trends, looking at, um, the big picture, as as it were. But I think with oral history, what you do is you look at individual subjective experience and that can form a part of, um, or give you a feel for a broader picture of what's happening [00:06:30] in society. But it really does focus on the individuals and give voice to the individuals. And that was another part of what I was concerned to do was to give voice to a group of people, um, whose voices have often not been heard in our society, especially the older gay men or older queer men who lived some of them for decades, very closeted lives [00:07:00] and also some of the men who are not what you might see as the, um, the cover boys of the gay press, Um, they the people who live quiet suburban lives that we don't often see publicised as as the icons of the gay world and to give voice to people whose voices would not otherwise have been heard was [00:07:30] also a very important part of what I was doing. So perhaps we can go through the process of actually how you went about this project. And I'm just wondering to begin with how you, for instance, find people in the community that maybe aren't out there. How how do you go about locating people again? Um, I started off very much working, I [00:08:00] suppose, Um, without much in the way of, um know how and, um, working things out. As I went along, I started with my own circle of friends and acquaintances, and, um spoke to a large number of people that I already knew and asked if they would be interested in being part of it. And then from the people I met, [00:08:30] I asked if they knew of anyone who would be interested or interesting or likely to be want to be part of it. So it was a snowballing sort of, um, approach. And then when I met my partner, Ross in 2005, um, I've done about half of the half of the, [00:09:00] um book, and he introduced me to, uh, another, uh, a range of people, Um, from his circle of friends and acquaintances as well, which gave me quite a different sort of set of people to talk to. Um, I think if I we're approaching this now, I would have a lot more confidence to go out. And, um um, recruit people from [00:09:30] probably a broader range of backgrounds, probably through, you know, a variety of networks and advertising. And, um, I think I've got more certainly more established myself in the gay world. And, um, have a much broader range of networks and contacts than I did then, um, so I would probably do it a little bit differently if I was doing it again. When you initially asked [00:10:00] people what was the response like how? How did people How did people respond? The take up rate, if you want to call it That was surprisingly high. Um, I'd have to go back to my notes and records to see exactly what proportion of people did say, yes, they'd be interested. But I think it was. It would have been 75 or 80% of the people I spoke to. And, um, [00:10:30] partly I see that as the desire, as I said, from a a group of people whose stories have often been hidden or whose lives have often been hidden to actually have their stories heard and and being heard have their stories affirmed. So on the whole, I had a very positive response from the people I approached, and the men are most of the guys and men alone. Men together were [00:11:00] over past middle age. And remember, that was, as I said, going back nearly 10 years. Um, when I started work on that, Um, but on the whole, the the the response was, yeah, affirming and positive, and people were keen to be part of it. When you pitched the idea, were you pitching it in terms of this is for publication, or this is for a private archive. [00:11:30] How did very much for publication. Yeah, I had in mind from the start that this was going to be a book. Um and so I said, I'm working on a book. Um, I also explained that the photographs would be exhibited. Um, I should say that we're talking about oral history, but when I set out doing this, my intention was always that the sound files will be transcribed for publication and print. So it's a little bit different from [00:12:00] the I suppose the traditional approach to oral history, which is of creating sound parts that will be, um, listened to will exist in their own right. And did you have, uh, a scope for the types of information that you were wanting from people or how narrow or how broad was that? It was pretty broad. And my idea was to create a picture of the person's verbal portrait to accompany the, uh, the [00:12:30] photographic portrait. Um, I had a range of a list of broad areas or topics or subjects to cover, but I'd almost start out, uh, simply with an invitation to the person to tell me about themselves and for me, part of the interest lay in seeing how people would respond to that question. And at this time I started. [00:13:00] I also was working with the idea that part of the picture of the person lay in what they chose to tell, and so I tended to encourage them or allow them to speak. Um, without being very directive in the questioning. Um, and again, I'd [00:13:30] probably do that slightly differently if I was doing it now. And in fact, in more recent work, I have sort of, um, change that approach slightly. Uh, but at the time, it was very much about allowing them to present what they wish to present of themselves. And so my questions would be, um, if they were talking about questions would be quite quite brief and, uh, just allow them to [00:14:00] keep on with the narrative. Um, if people seemed to come to the end of what they were saying then, as I said, I was working with a list of broad subject areas that I was interested in, and I'd I'd ask him specific questions. What kind of broad subject areas, Um, people's early life their background, their their upbringing where they grew up. Um, what they did? Um, [00:14:30] the pattern of relationships, um, for couples, how they met. Um, I was interested in allowing people to tell me the story of how they live. You know how they got to the point in life that they're at. Um, I wasn't interested so much in recording coming out stories because there had been an awful lot of that done. So I didn't specifically ask people questions. Like, [00:15:00] when did you realise you were gay? But in fact, a lot of people did talk about that, Um, but I was more interested in creating a broad picture of the person. So, um, I mean and and sometimes people just talk freely, like, um, one of the first interviews I did, Um, And at that stage, as I said, this was I. I had very [00:15:30] little experience at that stage, and and I did the interview in the evening. Uh, I think we went through three bottles of wine, and, um, it turned out to be a very free and open conversation. Um, which gave quite a lively and animated picture of the two men. Um, others [00:16:00] you know, follow through sort of more chronologically. And, you know, we talk about as I said, people's home life, their childhood, their upbringing, their careers, their work and, um, their values in life. Um, what things they regarded as important, um, I was concerned about spirituality as well, because that's been part of my background. Um, so I would often ask people about that. And [00:16:30] that was interesting to see the answers that people would give to those sorts of questions. The first question you mentioned about, um, you know, describing yourself that's sort of a very tricky question. What kind of responses did you get? The responses would vary from saying that's too broad. Can you be more specific? Um, to [00:17:00] giving an encapsulated picture of themselves. You know, I'm 46. I live in Wellington. I do this and that. And yeah, so a very encapsulated picture. Um, and occasionally people will just launch into a into A into a, um, a conversation or a monologue, which could be quite interesting. Yeah. So the the responses were quite varied. Um, it's probably a useful starting point because it can be interesting to see how people respond. [00:17:30] Um but it's often not an adequate starting point. Um, and you often need to be more specific in terms of what you ask to get. People started on their conversation. Had many of the participants done oral history or had they been interviewed before? I don't think any of them had to my knowledge. Uh, well, um, there's one couple who done who'd been very prominent [00:18:00] in in the media. Um and so they would have had many interviews. Um, there's another, uh, some other guys who'd been part of a documentary. A television style documentary. Um, most of the rest. I think it would have been their first time doing anything like that. Were they nervous? [00:18:30] Some slightly. But I don't think particularly. I don't think, um, nervousness was a great part of the, uh, part of the emotional response people had. Do you have any tips for putting people at ease? Or I know three bottles of wine is probably a good idea. That's not that's not the normal way of work, but, um well, again, it it would be. The process [00:19:00] I worked with was usually a three part process. So I meet the person initially. Um, find out a little bit about them, explain the nature of the project and decide if they were interested in going ahead. So we would already have met on on an initial occasion. And I'd use that to, as I said, find out a little bit about them and and give me an idea of the sorts of things I might be interested in asking. And then we'd go back on a second [00:19:30] occasion and I'd do the interview record the interview, Um, and then I go back usually on a third occasion and do the photographs in terms of putting people at ease. I think, um, I think having a respect for the person is, uh is a big part of it. And I certainly wasn't taking a a journalistic approach [00:20:00] to looking for, you know, looking for the, um, exciting bits or looking for the skeletons in the closet or looking for the, you know, the the The Juicy stories. Although, yeah, it's always interesting to read the juicy stories. But, um, certainly that's I wasn't taking an aggressive journalistic approach. I was allowing the person to speak and present what they want, what [00:20:30] they chose to tell me. So I think having respect for the person and allowing them to tell me as much or as little as they wish to, um was an important part to to opening up the interview process. And usually I found that with people enabled to speak freely, um, and having a listening ear, uh, people would often, um, open up [00:21:00] sometime in quite an amazing way. And, um, one of the guys I spoke to not for me alone me together, but for another project that I've been working on, said that, you know, he'd never had that amount of undivided attention. We probably spent an hour and a half, Uh, for him, it was a totally new experience to have the space and the attention to tell his story in that detail. And for him, he found it quite a cathartic process, [00:21:30] which certainly what I wasn't what I wasn't setting out to do, but and and, you know, was what he he derived from the experience. So for many people, I think the opportunity to have someone paying attention to them. Someone, uh, listening respectfully to what they're saying. Uh, that alone allows them to open up and and and and share what can often be quite intimate details of their lives. [00:22:00] Did you ever feel, uh, I'm not sure if the word is uneasy, but sometimes in these situations where people are giving you almost too much information knowing that this is for publication were there were times where you thought, actually, this is something you should really hold on to yourself, rather than putting it out there in the public. Um, not at the time I was doing the interviews because, um, the process I I was working [00:22:30] with was that, um certainly for me to lay men together. The people I spoke to would have the opportunity to review the written material before it was published. So part of the deal was that people would be able to read over what was going to be published before and and approve or request alterations before before it went through. Um, so no, I didn't [00:23:00] have that sense of unease. Uh, at the time was doing the interviews. Um, partly, I suppose, Um because the things that you look back later and say goodness we shouldn't be publishing this are actually can actually be some of the quite interesting things to hear. Yeah, quite interesting stories to hear. Um, And again. Although, as I said, I wasn't setting up with the journalistic intent. There is [00:23:30] a tension that you have to balance between, um, what you know is going to be interesting to read what you know is going to be revealing and what is good and safe for the person to be sharing for publication. Um, so there's a you know, there is AAA delicate balance that you've got to strike between having [00:24:00] a story. That is, yeah. Engaging, um, you know, versus, you know, being respectful and, um wise for the, uh, the person sharing that story to be bringing to the public domain. So with this project, that type of editing actually happened post the recordings. [00:24:30] So it wasn't You weren't kind of trying to stop people saying stuff. And no, I wasn't. No, no, I didn't. Um, And as I said, the intent in doing the recordings was that these would be for transcription for publication. So there wasn't an intent to make the record, put the recordings in the public domain. Um, so from that point of view, I was quite happy to let people talk freely knowing that if there was stuff that we wanted to pull back, that we could do that [00:25:00] subsequently and sometimes people would say, Now, don't put this down, but and tell you something that was actually quite interesting. And on one or two occasions, I got away with putting that in and they let you know once they read it through, they let it go, and that was obviously their choice. And they were happy with that. So, um, so that was that was good. And on other occasions, people would, you know, tell you stuff. I mean, even things like that they subsequently edit out, [00:25:30] Um, which is fair enough, even things like, you know, someone talking about smoking pot or something, which technically, is illegal, but trivially so I suppose. But, you know, obviously he decided he wanted it out of the public domain, so that was that was fair enough. Although in a sense, it was a little bit disappointing because it adds to the it adds flavour and colour to the add adds richness to the to the picture you're building up. So, um, you've just got to respect people's, [00:26:00] uh wishes and their judgement as the interviews went on and you went from person to person, did you find that you were pushing the interviews in particular directions? Uh, yes, certainly. As, um, the work. The project was almost done in two halves. The first half was done in 2003 when I was doing the B FA, Um, the final year of it and that I finished that. And then, um, it sort of sat on the back burner for a year or so. No, I picked it up again [00:26:30] in 2005 and, uh, did the rest of it in 2005 and 2006. And certainly in that second half, I was, um, much more prepared to be directive in the questioning, uh, much more prepared to, um, pick up on little details or hints that there might actually be something beneath what the person was saying and followed it through. And so, yes, that that did evolve. [00:27:00] Just getting back to some of the ways of making people feel comfortable in these kind of situations. Did you Do you have any thoughts on, uh, you know, the the best locations for doing these type of recordings and and the best times of day and and things like that. Mostly, I've tended to interview people in their homes. I think in fact, almost all of the ones I've done have been in their homes, and I think that's probably important. Well, people will always be more comfortable in their home territory. Um, and for [00:27:30] me, that's actually an important part of engaging with the person is having them in their domestic environment, the environment they create. Um, it would feel rather odd to me to do this sort of thing in a recording studio or some anonymous office space. Um, I don't think Oh, yes, 11 couple I did record at my at my place. Um, I can't quite remember why, but we [00:28:00] did the interview there, Um, but mostly in people's homes. Time of day. Um, for convenience with working people, it's often in the evenings. Um, although it's good, as with the photographs to select a time when people aren't going to be tired and aren't going to be pressured for time. Um, so, in terms of deciding a time, I think those would be the the issues. [00:28:30] Um, but I think often you just have to be pragmatic about it and for the interviews. Yeah, we'd often just do them in the evenings at home at the person's home. And how long would a recording session generally go for, Um, a minimum of an hour? I was doing the recordings on audio cassettes, and I'd, um, usually get through something more than one C 60 cassette. Uh, so a minimum of an hour? Only [00:29:00] on one occasion did it go for more than two hours. So about an hour and a half, I think would be the average often found, uh, my own experience of doing interviews. Often it takes maybe half an hour for the person to become comfortable. And sometimes it takes an hour to kind of just get down to like some really, uh, in the truth. Did you find that? Did you find it? Took a while for people to kind of get down to that level? [00:29:30] No. On the whole I, I generally found that within within 20 minutes or so, I think I was had a reason if there was going to be a report, which, uh then it was established by that time. But as I said, part of my the way I worked was that the interview would always be on a second meeting with the subject. So, um, so there was already a degree of familiarity, and I had already found [00:30:00] out a little bit about them from our initial conversations in your initial conversations, what kind of questions would you be asking? The sort of broad questions that you ask when you meet someone for the first time? Um, you know what? What? They what they do. Obviously, I found out where they live. What the the the jobs worth it? Um, possibly a little bit. About what? When? When they grew up and where they're from. [00:30:30] Um perhaps, um, whether they have been, if they were in a relationship, whether this was a new thing or a long established one, enough to get a feel for the person and enough to get, as I said, an idea of whether there were going to be any specific things that I would want to talk about when I did [00:31:00] the interview. So was there a difference between interviewing a couple or singles? Did did you find that there was a difference. Yes, there could be, um, some couples, Uh, the the interview almost became a dialogue between the two people, and that could be quite, uh, quite fascinating in itself. Um, and other couples, you know, one person would speak for a while and then allow the other person [00:31:30] to to say their piece, and they give each other space, whereas others were sort of interjecting and cutting across each other and that that was challenging for transcribing, challenging for writing up, But, um, quite fun, actually. Yeah. Um, I think on the whole, if you're speaking to someone, one on one, the [00:32:00] potential for them opening up and sharing with you stuff that's quite intimate is possibly greater. Um, and certainly in talking to people about relationships, you will, I mean, very much. Got to be aware that if you're talking to both, you know, both members of a couple at the same time, then obviously, how they describe their relationship is going to be different from if you were speaking to them individually. [00:32:30] Um, but again, the I suppose the approach I took was that the way people choose to present themselves as part of the portrait of the person. And, um, yes, you've very much got to keep that in mind that that what people say is how they present themselves at that point in time and that in that context. And I've likened that to taking a photograph that if I take a photograph of someone, that's how they look [00:33:00] on that day at that time in that place. Um, it's just to use that word. A snapshot. Um, it's not the entirety of that person. And it's not how that person may look on a different day or in different circumstances. And so with the the recording that what they say at that time is simply that and you can start wondering and talking about, you know, [00:33:30] objective truth and that sort of thing, which I think you have to say that you don't get get from, well, you don't get nothing but objective truth from a single hour, two hour interview, you get I a snapshot of of the person at that particular time when you're working with a couple. How did you set up the, um, the [00:34:00] recording situation? Was it around like a table or was it in comfortable chairs, usually in comfortable chairs, actually, Um, usually in there, Mostly it would have been in people's sitting rooms. And, um, I started off when I was doing it through. I had access to professional grade sound recording a portable sound kit. Um, and I think I had a couple of lapel mics. Um, so that was that was good [00:34:30] quality recording, and then the second half of it when I was working independently. Um, I'm probably a bit embarrassed to say this, but I just used an off stick to phone. And because I was the intent was to create material for transcription that was actually adequate for my purposes. Uh, it would certainly wouldn't have been broadcast quality, but was adequate for transcription. Do you think there are any, um, specific things, uh, that [00:35:00] you need to be aware of when interviewing? Um, gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender people in terms of the the different types of relationships or the different wording that they may use? Are there things that you kind of looked out for? I suppose because I was a gay man interviewing gay men. Um, I assumed that the language that I would would use would be language that they would be comfortable with. And given that I was talking on the whole [00:35:30] to men around my age or older, um So in other words, I was operating as an insider as part of the part of the community. Um, I wasn't consciously, um, aware of the language I was using or consciously moderating the language I was using, um, in in, in doing the interviews. Um, I think [00:36:00] if you're working as someone outside a particular community, then that becomes, uh, talking to people, members of a particular community or sub, um, subculture, uh, then that the issue has become much more problematic. And you, um even the very question of, um, as an outsider, going into a a community has now become quite quite problematic. So there might [00:36:30] be different issues there, For my own part. No, I wasn't, um, particularly conscious of of of of the language I was using. What about things like, um, as I say about, uh, relationships where they may vary a bit from, um, say like, AAA straight or he kind of relationship. Did you have? Did you have to kind of navigate how you identified relationships and what relationships were. And [00:37:00] again, I was talking either to people who are manifestly single or to people who were living in couples or, in one case, a threesome, Uh, in, you know, two or three people living in a domestic environment and a domestic relationship. So I wasn't exploring other kinds of relationships. Um, and arguably, it would have been possibly [00:37:30] interesting and worthwhile to do so. Um, but that wasn't the focus of what I was doing. I guess I'm just interested in trying to find out if you kind of change your ear to specific things that people were saying that you could go. Oh, that's an entry point into kind of, um a line of questioning that you wouldn't necessarily find in a straight Oh, yes, yes, yeah. Um, you [00:38:00] certainly do. And you certainly become aware of, especially with experience. You become aware of cues and, um especially, I think, with some people talking about events in the past, you become aware that there is possibly a lot more to, uh, encounters or friendships or, [00:38:30] um, people that they might have mentioned then is immediately apparent. Um, and I think that really is a case of, um, experience of doing this but also experience of reading queer history and knowing the sorts of things that might be there if you look, um, and it's almost as if [00:39:00] someone will be talking about something and you know that if you ask, there will be a relationship or there will be have been some trauma or there would have been some event. Um, and it's almost 1/6 sense. I suppose that comes from, well, life, experience and experience in doing the oral histories [00:39:30] and experience in reading Queer history. So it's difficult to give specific, um, instances, Um, but certainly you do become aware that some things people will say will be You know, you just have to ask them to open up a hole. Uh, whole whole, um, world of other material. I think there's an example I I recall [00:40:00] in hearing in a couple of oral histories where, um, the interviewer asks, you know, um, have you ever been married? And the person says no, but basically, that completely negates any other type of kind of relationship, you know? And then then then the interviewer moves on so that yeah, they weren't married, but they might have had other 01 of the things. Certainly I probably one of the most basic things is is never to ask closed questions like that unless you're asking for one very specific piece of information. [00:40:30] But certainly you're very much part of my practise was never to ask closed questions. So the way you raise your questions is always inviting the person to speak. Um, so I wouldn't say Have you ever been married? But, um, can you tell me about any past relationships you would have you've had? Or can you tell me about any experiences with women? [00:41:00] Or can you tell me about any, uh, early relationships with men? Not even can you tell me about? But yeah. So it's an invitation to speak rather than asking Yes, no questions. Did you find there was any difficulty in talking to people of an older age group than yourself? No. I found it quite easy on the whole probably easier [00:41:30] than talking to younger people. In fact, why was that? Not sure, exactly. Um, the older people I spoke to seemed again very, um, keen to have their stories told their stories. heard. Um, I [00:42:00] found the process quite easy, and I think on the whole, they they did as well. I'm not sure why I found that. So but yeah. Did you find you had to alter the type of language you were using for somebody that had the same growing up with with different language, like, I mean, for instance, using the word gay or queer? Does that change? Um, it certainly would. Now, as I said, doing this starting this out. You know, um, [00:42:30] in 2003 and working through into 2006 and working mostly with guys of middle age and the word gay was the word to use. Um, I did ask a few people about the language that they use for describing, um, their identity. And at the time that I was doing it, and with the group I was I was doing with then then gay was certainly the word that people were using then, uh, very few of the guys and and men alone men together would have identified themselves [00:43:00] as queer. Although, um, you know, that's very increasingly the the term that people use. Um, certainly a team that I'm quite comfortable with for myself. Um, but I And then, you know, people talked about LA words like, um, camp and, um, which really had gone out of use by the time I was doing these interviews. Although for some of the guys that had been the language [00:43:30] that they used, Um, yeah, probably in the fifties and sixties. But through from the seventies, I think gay was the word that people were using. Did you, at the beginning of the project want a kind of a representative sample of the community? Or you were very much kind of targeting people you knew. And then people that they knew, um, I was targeting people that I knew and, um, working out from there again if I was [00:44:00] when I did the second half of it, I was more conscious of wanting to, um, create more of a representative sample. Um, and again, I think that probably comes from experience and confidence in doing the project. Um, I guess I have to say that when I started out, it was with a fair degree of trepidation as to the the audaciousness of doing this. Um um and I suppose having [00:44:30] done it. We've done one project like this and having it under my belt. And as I said, my confidence for going out and actually, um, looking for people from a broad range of backgrounds would be, you know, much greater. So you did the interviews. And then between the time you did the interview and then the photography session, what was going through your head did? Did that alter how you photographed somebody from the interview? [00:45:00] No, I don't think doing the interview per se altered how I photographed him. Um, the impact that the interview process had on the photography was that I had a chance to become familiar with the environment, and the people would get a feel for how I might work within that environment. Did it impact on the participant in terms of did it change how they reacted to you? Um I think Well, I, I imagine that having got to know me, [00:45:30] uh, and become more familiar with me, it would help to put them at ease for the photographic process. That was certainly my assumption in that, you know, that had this conversation with me, which was often at quite some depth um And so, yes, I assume that that would put them at ease for the photography. Can you take me through the photography sessions? How did how did they work? Um, [00:46:00] I'd arrive. I'd have a camera and a tripod. Uh, I was working with available lights, so I didn't bring lighting equipment with me. Um, I would have some idea of locations within the home that I might, um, position the person people in, um, we would start out in one particular place, and, [00:46:30] um, I'd set the camera up. Part of the process of the of the photographic process is also engaging with the person. So, um, there's a conversation that goes on, and you're almost working. Your mind's almost in two places. You you're having this conversation and engaging with a person with one half of your brain and the other half you're working with the technical aspects of setting up the camera [00:47:00] so forth, getting it focused and and and getting the composition, um, so I I usually typically work. I mean, depending on the house and the setting, um, use several different locations within the home. Several different positions. Um, standing, sitting, um, domestic environments can be quite challenging to photograph people in, [00:47:30] um, and the right or the best position or the best answer to the is not always, you know, straightforward. Um, so usually it would take me an hour to an hour and a half, um, to do the photography I was working on, uh, medium format film. So I shoot typically [00:48:00] six rolls of 1 20. So that's, um, 12 on a roll. Um, sometimes inside the house outside as well as inside. Um, I was always looking for one single image. The way the way I was working at that stage, at any rate, was to have one single image that I I felt encapsulated the person in was photographically a strong image. Um, so that would emerge, you know, go go back and process [00:48:30] the film and look at the proof sheets. And, um yes. With that process of sitting with the with with the images over a period of time. And usually one of the obvious is the one that I wanted to use. What to you makes a strong image. Um, firstly, engagement with the subject. Um, in terms of the sort of portraiture that I'm doing um it seems that the the [00:49:00] person I'm photographing is actually engaged with me or engaged with the camera. Um, Then there's a whole raft of elements of lighting and composition and tonal balance and a whole lot of things that really sit together. I mean, they almost come together again at an unconscious level, and you [00:49:30] you have an image that you just know it is working. Well, um, and then after the event, you can often go back and and and sort of analyse it. Um, but the process usually comes together as a almost a sort of guest. Um, that you look at it and you think this is the one and there'll be elements of as it not an engagement with the person, But, um, you know, interest in the environment, [00:50:00] Um I mean, some people's homes are quite interesting in themselves. And, um, how much that you see of the environment can actually be an important part of whether the photographs worthwhile or not again, had the participants ever been photographed in that particular way before? Uh, Sheldon, I think, Yeah, I think, um, seldom in that, that considered a manner. Um and then she'd been to [00:50:30] a photographic studio or or engaged a professional photographer to come to your house as people used to do, um, for the baby photos and things. Um, I. I think few people would have had that that experience? Certainly not recently. It must be, um I mean both in the recording and photographing people. I mean, it is quite out of the ordinary, isn't it? Yes, it is for the people doing it, I suppose, as the person conducting the interviews and [00:51:00] doing the photographs, because it's something that I do for me. It's perfectly ordinary and banal. Um, but yes, I think you're right. For probably for the person who's being photographed. It is a new experience. But people adapt very well to the new experiences. Yeah, I, I I'm just wondering if it's, um, like you were saying before about respect. You know, if you show people respect in terms of [00:51:30] how you're photographing them, because I think a lot of people can get very nervous about how they look and how they're portrayed. Do you have any tips for, you know, working with those kind of anxieties? Um, again, I think, as you've said, starting with respect for the person is is paramount. Um, and respect and kindness, I think, um, [00:52:00] yeah. You know, I'm not setting out to make people look odd or freakish like Diana Hart did. Um, I'm not setting out to show people as, um types or exemplars of anything in particular. Um, I'm simply setting up to allow [00:52:30] well to portray them as I see them, but to allow them to be seen as individuals. And I think, yeah, I think respect for the person does have to be paramount. And then there's There's the subtleties of of the manner in which you approach someone, um, which are difficult [00:53:00] to put into words. But I think being, um not being aggressive in your approach not being hurried, uh, is a very important thing, allowing plenty of time for the photo shoot. So, um, I'd always try and schedule it. Um, certainly at a time when I didn't have to rush away to anything else. And, um, you know, often mostly the the photographs would be taken [00:53:30] on a weekend day. Um, so schedule the photo shoot so that the people I'm photographing aren't under pressure of time. Um, and you do have to allow, in a sense, sometimes you almost count on throwing away the first role or to a film. Um, I don't know. Talking about film is probably a bit [00:54:00] Sounds a bit, um, anachronistic in today's digital world, but, um, the same thing applies, um, you almost count on. I mean, some people even pretend to used to pretend to shoot a role with the camera unloaded. Um, I don't do that, but yeah, my grandmother used to say of cooking pancakes. The first pancake you make is [00:54:30] going to be no good, because the, um, the pan is never going to be hot enough. And the last one you make is going to be no good, because you're too tired by then. And it's a bit like that with photographs. You know that the first year you take, you're just both you and the subject are getting into the space of working together. Um, and so partly the entry point is actually the process of doing it. And somewhere in the middle of it all, you know, often you know, you've got what you want, and then you you finish off knowing that the finishing [00:55:00] off is sometimes just a formality. Was there any talk between you and the participant in terms of how they wanted to be presented? Not a lot at that stage. And I think again, if I were doing it now, I would, um I would invite more of a dialogue as to how they want to present themselves. Uh, sometimes people would ask me, what should I wear or what should I dress? Sometimes they wouldn't if they did ask me about [00:55:30] clothes. I'd say, you know, something weird, what you're comfortable with, Um, about the only thing I I do is discourage people from wearing white shirts. Which, uh, um, you know, visually and photographically quite, uh, you know, draw attention away from the from the face. So, um, about the only thing I do is say, don't wear a white or very light coloured shirt. Yeah, and then you just invite [00:56:00] them to dress as they feel comfortable and again. That was part of my Certainly my ethos at the time was just allowing them. They knew that this was for publication. They knew that this was for exhibition. Um, and allowing them to make the the choice of how they presented themselves. Um, I don't think people particularly dressed up. I mean, a couple of the guys in the book are just in their sort of shorts and T shirts. And, um, [00:56:30] mostly people just wore their everyday clothes. Really? Um, couple of these, you know, these guys are obviously put on the sort of smart, casual gear. Um, there's one guy sort of very elegantly dressed, but that's how he he always is. Um, what about the idea when you you're just flicking through the book? Now that that, um especially with couples, the idea of how intimate do you get in a photograph [00:57:00] in terms of, you know, are the arms around each other? Are they kissing? Are they hugging? Can you talk to me about that kind of negotiation? Yes. Um, again, I allowed my people to decide on the degree of intimacy that they were happy with. Um, but I wasn't looking for schmaltz. And, um, I I wasn't looking for, um, [00:57:30] theatrical displays of intimacy or emotionality. Um, and I was more interested in seeing the sort of intimacy that people were comfortable with, uh, in their own home with a relative stranger um, I wasn't trying to recreate in a sort of cinematic style, um, the kind of intimacy that people might display, [00:58:00] uh, when they were alone or with with close friends. So, um, you know, some of these guys are are, um, you know, they've got their arms around each other, and, um, some of them are a lot of them actually have the couples they have got their arms around each other one way or another. Um, but I certainly wasn't looking for, um, you know, for guys kissing, although, once or twice [00:58:30] I did just for a laugh. So, you know, let's have a kiss. And they tend not to be the the the images that I used. Um, yeah, I was more looking for how people would you present themselves spontaneously to a relative stranger. And often, as I said, often there is at least an arm around each other, um, sitting side by side. Um, [00:59:00] in fact, more often than not, but that's how people generally chose to chose to present themselves. Yeah, So the photographs are done. The interview has been transcribed. When you present that back to the participants, can you talk about the kind of negotiation between how you see them and how they see themselves and what? How did that work? Um, [00:59:30] mostly in. You know, there's 30 chapters in that book, and in the vast majority of them, people were happy with what I'd written. And, um, the alterations they requested were very much along the lines of simply sometimes changing the names of third parties. Um or, um, [01:00:00] just somewhat disguising circumstances so that usually third parties or previous lovers wouldn't be identifiable. Um, from the from the narrative. In just a couple of cases, um, people wanted fairly extensive rewrites, and that became quite a negotiating process. It was a matter of explaining [01:00:30] going back and explaining the intent that this was meant to be that the the the this was meant to read, like a conversation that we weren't looking for good grammar. And we weren't looking for, um necessarily a a written style of language. Yeah, we were looking for the spontaneity. And, um so in one, in one case, it was a matter of explaining that and going through that and then, [01:01:00] um and and that dealt with a lot of the the issues and then going through bit by bit, working out what they were actually comfortable with, because this was a couple and they'd actually talked about, um, in the conversation, they talked about stuff that they subsequently didn't want to put in the public domain. So it was a question of carefully negotiating exactly how [01:01:30] much they were prepared to, uh, to have published and how much they really didn't want to. Um, and that took, uh, actually, they were out of town, So it was a Yeah, one or two very long telephone conversations, and we eventually got through it, but, um, and then in another case, um, I think [01:02:00] similar issues were going on, and, um, and again, it was a question of explaining the process and negotiating and give and take And, um, some compromise on my part in terms of, um, not so much giving away material that I thought was interesting. [01:02:30] Um, but the shape of the the shape of the story. And, um but, you know, and and again, it was a long conversation by by by telephone because he was out of town. Um, but I think once we arrived at an understanding of what I was really trying to do. Then I think [01:03:00] we got there. Well, we did get there in the end, but at the time, it was actually fairly stressful. But, um, in both cases, I got back things that had been completely rewritten. Um, you know, that that they had taken what I'd I I'd sent them and completely rewritten it. Um, so that was, you know, a matter of explaining and and working it through. What about in terms of the photographs that people accept [01:03:30] how they appeared in the photos? What did I think they did? I mean, I didn't, uh, in terms of the agreement, and the release that I had with them was something that I'd photographed them. And, um And so the the arrangement was that the photographs would be that that I didn't hear any adverse comment on the photographs. Um, I suppose people wouldn't really, Um I don't think anyone said [01:04:00] no. You can't use Yeah, no one. I didn't. No one said no. I don't want you using that image. And again, that's a process of being respectful. I wasn't obviously choosing images that weren't going to make people look funny or look awkward or look odd. Um um, but in this case, I didn't give people the, you know, the work I have done. I have given people the right of veto over the images, but in this case, I didn't And, um, I didn't get any feedback that people were unhappy with it. So one [01:04:30] area we haven't really covered is release forms. So I'm wondering, um, one Are they important? And at what point do you get things signed? Um, so, yes, release forms are clearly very important. Um, especially if you're going to be putting material into the public domain. Um, when I was doing men alone men together, I started off with a very broad release form, Um, which in subsequent work I've actually modified, Um, [01:05:00] the release form, um, or in the release form, the person I'm interviewing, uh, makes it clear that they realise that this is the recording is for, um with the intent of publication. Um, I covered the fact that they would have the opportunity to review any written material prior to publication. Um, and I also got them to assign copyright and the sound recording to me. [01:05:30] Uh, because my reading at the time I started was that the my understanding was that the copyright in the, uh in the recording is actually with the participant. Um, and I haven't looked again at that, but, um, so I covered the copyright aspects as well, and then the release for the photographs. Um, it was pretty straightforward that the person agrees to being photographed and the intent is for exhibition [01:06:00] and publication. And so I left it at that, um, I'm about to embark on a new project which is being done through Auckland University and has to go through the University Ethics Committee process. Um, and the requirements are much, much more rigorous. And I think it's fair to say that the requirements of institutional ethics committees certainly designed to protect the safety [01:06:30] of the participants. Um, I think one has to say that they are also designed to protect the university from litigation. Um, and the requirements are onerous to the point of potentially restricting or potentially being restrictive in what you can actually do. Um, but anyway, that's what we have to work with. Uh, but for an institutional ethics committee, um, [01:07:00] there has to be quite an extensive informed consent process and a very detailed explanation, for example, of who's going to be doing the transcribing and the fact that the transcription is going to be confidential and again working with within the framework of a university based project, Um, they require that there's a very strong [01:07:30] desire that the participants have the opportunity to review and edit the transcript before anything is done with that. A which certainly poses tensions in terms of a documentary process. Um, and A A And, um, you know, being faithful to what was actually said at the time. Um, but which in fact, means that once [01:08:00] the person's entered the transcript and and signed off on that, then the material is is released for publication. So that's probably quite a good way of working. Um, in other photographic projects, I've, um, offered people the write a veto on on the photographs before I use them. Um, that's mainly in terms of a different project. I did, [01:08:30] um, men undressed. So that's looking at nudes. And I think in that context that I was happy to give people more, um, more control over which images I did use. Um, and again, it's a It's a process of negotiation with the subject and involves a come back comes back to that question of respect for the subject. How much for the person you're photographing, how much we [01:09:00] draw the line of control over use of the images. And I think that's something that people have to work out, possibly on a project by project basis, possibly on a case by case basis, Uh, according to what? What people are comfortable with. It sounds, though, that for all of your projects, um, just the awareness that there will be negotiation is a is a key thing. Not not not that you can just go and record or photograph, and that's it. There's always going to be [01:09:30] some kind of I. I think so. And, um, much as 1 may like to go, you know, and again, a journalistic approach would very possibly be to go in and and and do the interview and take the photographs and then do what you what you like with them. Um, and much as that may have an appeal in terms of getting all sorts of interesting and potentially juicy or salacious material, I think [01:10:00] that's not really the way you can work with, um when you're asking people to open up their lives. Um, I think you've got to be very respectful and careful of of things and also allow people that cooling off, period because I did find that during the interview process, people will open up and they it almost becomes. Sometimes it can almost become a confessional situation. Um, and people will open up, and not always. But sometimes they'll tell you all sorts [01:10:30] of things that, as we were saying before we started the recording, sometimes you think actually, this wouldn't be wise for them to put in the public domain. So allowing that process of negotiation that's always been important to me in terms of releasing the sound files, it becomes a bit more tricky. Um, and with the current project that I'm about to embark on, the way it's probably going to be going to work is that what I'll be able to release of the [01:11:00] sound files will be material that corresponds to what's been signed off in the edited transcript so that you know, if if this stuff that they specifically deleted or or edited in the transcript, you know won't be able to use the corresponding parts of the sound files. So the sun files for, um, men alone men together. Where are they now? Um, I've got them at home, and my intention is to deposit them with, um [01:11:30] or or with, um, the Alexander Turnbull library. And, um, it's one of those things, and I get around to doing box. But that was always my intention that I I'd deposit the the the tape tapes, actually. And what kind of restrictions or no, I mean, would you put restrictions on that material? Um, part of the reason I've not gone ahead with doing it is that it's something I didn't specifically discuss with the subject. So [01:12:00] I think what I'm going to have to do, um, is go back to try and get back in touch with the individuals and say, Look, I want to deposit these, Is that OK? And if it's not OK with them, then I presumably have to destroy the tapes. Uh, but I think that's probably ethically what I have to do. Um, So again, with the new projects I'm embarking on, that's all covered in the upfront in the consent process, that down the track, I can deposit the material in an archive. [01:12:30] And the restriction There will be that, um, again, If this is this is approved by the ethics committee, it will be that, um, access to the sound files will be restricted to bona fide researchers and that any use of the material will be restricted to what's already been cleared for publication. You know, at four put an embargo on 50 or 60 years or something, you know, which should cover to the people in question. I did. [01:13:00] I suppose another interesting element, like with with with your book as well is that some of the chaps are quite old. And if they die, does the family have any right to access that material? Do you have any thoughts on that? I haven't, um, thought about it in great tea. One of the guys had, in fact, died by the time I I was. He died a year after I did the interview. So it was his daughter that I got to [01:13:30] sign off on the, um on the written material, and she was quite happy to do that. Um, dealing with families can become difficult in terms of, especially if there are different members of the family have different views about their parents, especially with queer or gay parents. Um, different members of the family have different views about their their parents or their relatives. Sexuality. Um, [01:14:00] so it's potentially quite a difficult area to work in. Um, and I haven't. As I said, the one chap I know has died. His his daughter would be quite happy with depositing the ma, depositing the material, I'm sure. How hard was it finding a publisher? Um, I sent the material to two or three publishers initially, [01:14:30] uh, more sample material and got turned down. And then someone recommended that I contact Steel Roberts who were happy to take it on. Um, this is I mean, as I understand it, publishing nonfiction is a difficult market. Um, and they're getting a you know, a large publisher's take on something. Oh, in the nature of queer history [01:15:00] is is, um, not going to be easy because the market is small. I have to say that working with, um Roger Steele Steele Roberts I, I, in fact, substantially rewrote. Um, Well, I sent him three sample chapters, and I substantially rewrote those. There was a lot of editing. Went into it, um, to produce something that [01:15:30] was actually engaging and readable as written text. Um, if you look at a lot of published, um, oral history, it is actually not not interesting to read, um, because of the repetitions and the circumlocutions and the, um which reproduces the way people speak but actually requires a lot of concentration and a lot [01:16:00] of attention to read. And so, once again, that was a initially I saw it as a compromise of, Of of the of the process was editing the material in a way that made it without destroying the, um well, hopefully, without destroying the spontaneity and the feeling of direct speech was actually creating something that worked as as written [01:16:30] text, rather than simply a transcript of an interview. Um, And so that was the, um, a big task I worked with with, um, Roger Steele. And, um perhaps if I'd done that initially, other publishers might have looked at looked at it differently because I think it was in terms of creating something for publication was much better for it. What was the response on publication? [01:17:00] How how has it been received? It's been received quite favourably. I mean, I had, um, the book launch here in Wellington and a book launch in Auckland. Um, were well attended. Um, it didn't get much tension outside of the gay press. Got reviewed in, uh, in express and on gay NZ dot com. I actually did get a review on the listener, which was good, um, [01:17:30] and was going to feature in the Christchurch writers and readers a week, and then they had the earthquake. So the September earthquake and, um was it 2010? Yeah. So we're all set to go down for that. And then that was probably yeah, probably the least of the casualties from the Christchurch Earthquakes. Um, but so yeah, I was I was I was pleased [01:18:00] with the response given the, um given the specificity of the subject matter and the potentially, um um, limited audience just wrapping up this chat now on on oral histories. And I'm wondering if you can maybe reflect back on the last hour and a bit that we've been chatting and just kind of bullet point for me. Some of the key things that if I was just starting out [01:18:30] what would be the key things I would need to to to think about in terms of doing an oral history and on a queer subject. Um, And so, firstly, read all you can get your hands on. Um, because there has been quite a lot published both from New Zealand and overseas, um, of queer history, first person accounts of queer history. So you well, the way I would approach it would be to read as much as you can. Um, I know that the Oral History Association [01:19:00] of New Zealand runs workshops in doing oral history. And although I haven't done any of those, I would think that for someone starting out, that that would be a very presumably a very valuable place to start. Um, I think the next thing would be to define your project, to work out specifically what you're interested in and work out in what ways What you're doing differs from [01:19:30] what's been done before. Um, and certainly in terms of documentary work, photographic and and and oral history, looking at a specific group of people, um, that haven't been looked at previously is always going to be part of it. what makes the interesting documentary work? Um, I think you do need to have some be informed to some extent about, [01:20:00] uh, copyright. Uh, and, uh, who holds the copyright and in the recordings and the transcripts. And you do need to have thought about the process of consent and, um, the ways in which the material can be released for publication. And from my point of view, I certainly advocate the two step process that I've used, which can be frustrating [01:20:30] from a writer or an author's point of view. Um, but I think ultimately works for the protection of the individual and to respect the individual, Uh, in other words, giving them the right of a cooling off period to look at what they've spoken, what they've talked about. Um, certainly, if you're preparing stuff for publication, Um, we didn't particularly [01:21:00] talk about accuracy, but, um, we we touched on it. But I think you do need to be aware that what the person is telling you is the reality for them at that time. It's the reality and the truth for them at that particular point in their lives. In that particular context, speaking to that particular person for that particular audience. Um, and if that's true, there may be [01:21:30] a different truth to be heard from a different audience. Or if you went back and spoke to them at a different time or if he'd spoken to them at a different point in life. Um, so I do go back and check on matters of historical fact dates and so on. I can That's again part of the calling review process as people can check on that. But other than that, realising that, um, this is the specific truth for a particular time, [01:22:00] Um, in terms of allowing the person to engage, I think respect for the individuals taking enough time for the process, having spent some time introducing yourself to them, um allowing them to be at ease with the process is really important. And then, if there is a report, then they will open up. Um, using open [01:22:30] questions, um, that en encourage the person to speak, uh, certainly avoiding questions that demand a yes, no answer, or even unless you're specifically going back to check on facts even, you know, avoiding questions that just require a very factual one line response. Um, recording equipment. Obviously, if I mean you very [01:23:00] basic equipment is can be adequate if you're looking simply for trans material for transcription. But if you're looking for broadcast quality material, then you need to look at getting higher quality equipment, Um, as much as possible being in control of the environment so that it's not a noisy environment with distractions, and I normally talking to gay men. You're not dealing with people who've got kids in the house and that sort of thing. But even a ticking clock can be quite, [01:23:30] uh, distracting, which you the sort of thing that you don't notice. Um, initially until you listen to the tape and there's this loud ticking clock, um, being aware of how long you can go before people start to get fatigued. And, as I said, about an hour and a half is a is a good time, sometimes with a break. Um, once I did go on for three hours, but the guy was stoned and that was a very [01:24:00] it was 10 o'clock in the morning and it was stoned. That was a very discursive thing and took a lot of editing, you know, serious editing to get anything coherent narrative out of it, Um, and thinking in advance about what you're going to do with the material afterwards so that you can actually prepare for that. Um and, um, so that you don't need to keep going back to people and tracking [01:24:30] them down after the event. Um, and having people fully aware of what you're going to do with the material so that you've been completely transparent with them as to what you're where you're going to publish it and what you're going to do with it, I think those will be the the key points. Yeah, And one thing that you've been doing, uh, and took me a while to realise is that as the interviewer, you have to suppress all those usual, [01:25:00] um, nonverbal cues in the ear and all the conversational interjections, um, that we're so used to using to express our interest and express our, um attention, but will become very, very distracting on the tape. So you do have to learn as the interviewer to ask your questions and then keep quiet and you make eye contact or do whatever you [01:25:30] do. The other thing I should say that I do is, I take extensive notes, Um, and for two reasons. Firstly, there's a backup in case there's any, um, problem with the recording. Um, And secondly, Because Because I've often I've been working want with material for transcription, uh, to create a record and, you know, a written text. Um Then as I go, [01:26:00] I'll be noting often noting points that I might want to come back to and amplify so without breaking into the dialogue or breaking into the conversation. But noting points that I may wish to come back to and enlarge upon. And that goes back to some of the, um, stuff you mentioned, uh, hidden entry points into queer or hidden contact. You just flag that and then because you don't want to interrupt what the person is saying, that could lead you somewhere quite quite [01:26:30] wonderful. Uh, but, you know, coming back either at the conclusion or at a you know, natural hiatus in the process and filling in on those detail. So, yeah, I do take extensive notes of it like, I don't know, psychologist writing A. But that's the way I work.

IRN: 511
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/aids_memorial_quilt_cleve_jones.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003952
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089246
TITLE: Cleve Jones - NAMES Project AIDS Memorial Quilt
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Cleve Jones
INTERVIEWER: Ian Kember
TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; AIDS Memorial Quilt; Cleve Jones; Gay BC (Wellington Access Radio); HIV / AIDS; HIV / AIDS; Ian Kember; Judy Chicago; NAMES Project; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; San Francisco; United States of America
DATE: 26 June 1991
YEAR: 1991
LOCATION: San Francisco, San Francisco, United States of America
CONTEXT: Cleve Jones, founder of the NAMES Project, talks to Ian Kember about the AIDS Memorial Quilt. The quilt was first unfolded on 11 October 1987 in Washington DC.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Why do you think that quilt was such a successful magnet and attracting so much support and attention? Well, I think almost everybody who had been involved with the epidemic was feeling a deep sense of frustration at our inability to communicate to the rest of the world. What was going on here, particularly here in San Francisco, where so many people were affected so early on. And it was a terribly frustrating, isolating sort of experience. And I think that the quilt was the first thing that came [00:00:30] along that people really saw could communicate what we were experiencing beyond all of the boundaries of sexual orientation or geography. To your knowledge, is a quilt or a tapestry ever been used in this form before? Yes, there's a long tradition of quilting, uh, being used to express social causes. There was the piece quilt. Um, I didn't really get my inspiration from that, though. I think [00:01:00] my inspiration comes more from, uh, the Vietnam War Memorial and also Judy Chicago's Dinner party, which was an art piece where feminist artists contributed portions of it, and I like the the collaborative nature of it. But quilting has been used for a very long time to express social causes. And really, what we're trying to do with the quilt is to recapture the so called traditional American values, uh, for [00:01:30] this particular situation. And I think that the quilt evokes a very traditional American, uh, cultural response. How's the project now funded? I don't know. You'll have to talk to the people that run it now, Um, of a very high percentage of our income still comes from the sale of T shirts and buttons, video tapes, things like that. We remain a grassroots organisation. Uh, for almost all of our funding, [00:02:00] what's the basis for the orderly running of such a large project? Now? I don't know. OK, we'll move on then, then the names project seems to be active in about 24 or five states in the United States. What's happening in the rest of the states? The names project is is, uh, active everywhere and has had an impact everywhere. Um, I think we've been particularly effective in in reaching [00:02:30] people outside of the urban centres. I've I've done a lot of travelling to smaller towns and rural communities, and I just, for example, got back from a trip to northern New Hampshire. And, uh, later in the summer, I'm going to be coordinating a quilt display in Northern Michigan. And in communities like that, the quilt is always the the largest, uh, undertaking they've ever attempted in in terms of fund raising public education. Everywhere the quilt goes, it is displayed as the centrepiece for locally coordinated [00:03:00] fundraising and educational activities. How the quilt helped made gay and lesbian visibility Well, there are some who would say that the quilt is too passive, and we have been very clear from the beginning that we, as an organisation, do not have a specific political agenda. And from the very beginning we have been made up of heterosexuals, homosexuals and bisexuals, all working together. So we are not a gay organisation, per se. But [00:03:30] I feel that anyone who walks through the quilt receive such a powerful message about the love and the solidarity of the gay and lesbian community. And I think that in this respect, the quilt is really actually quite subversive because on the surface level we're very respectable. We go into high schools and junior high schools. We're supported by establishment institutions. But when people come to see this AIDS education message. They also [00:04:00] learn a lot about about the gay and lesbian community. And I think one would have to be made of stone not to be moved by the love that is represented in the quilt the quilt has indeed, I know in many places brought together people in terms of, uh, the activities involved with them in terms of, uh, the sewing and the meeting of people and partners. And can you express any, uh, experiences you've had where people have been joined? The community has been strengthened by the group? Well, [00:04:30] I think one of the most, uh, wonderful things that happens is that, you know, there are many people represented in the quote with more than one panel. Usually what happens is when, particularly if they're gay people, a gay man will die of AIDS and his gay family, his lover and his friends will make a panel first. And then, typically a year later, the mom and dad and the brothers and sisters will come around, and then they will make a panel, and one of the things that we try to do is introduce these people to [00:05:00] each other so that they can share their different experiences of this person and their love for this person. I think that's very important for gay and lesbian people who still today feel so terribly isolated by this disease. It's very hard for those of us who are gay to keep sight of the fact that there are literally millions of people now all over the world who are also part of this struggle and they're not gay and they're not American. But they're part of us. And I think that the quilt expresses that beautifully, especially [00:05:30] now that we're getting more participation from around the world. Um, and the quilt projects that we've seen started in on other continents. Many people in Wellington, the city of New Zealand, I come from met the people who made the the the film the common threats film when they came to New Zealand. And, uh, the question back in my mind is, how easy has it been for people in the organisation to get hold of people like Dustin Homan, Robert Wagner to narrate and and front up those sorts of projects? [00:06:00] I would say that nothing we have done here has been easy, ever. And, uh, all of the people who work here work very hard at very low pay. We have received support from remarkable places and remarkable people, but nothing about it has been easy. Just a technical question now. And that is how do you arrange the orderly storage and transportation of such a monstrous art? Well, I think the uh, executive [00:06:30] director could give you a better handle of that, but basically the quilt is modular. The individual panels are sewn eight at a time into 12 ft by 12 ft squares. So it's very. It's relatively easy for us to do to stored. It folds up, and it's transported by people who are trained to coordinate the displays. We have a growing network of volunteers around the country who know how to display it and take care of it. And really, we've had [00:07:00] virtually no problems on that score, which still kind of amazes me. There were two individual panels that were lost early on in in the in the project, and I don't think we've lost any since then, and we've only had one, very minor, uh, experience with vandalism. So it's really perhaps give some advice to the United States Special Service with that experience. Well, I think we could give a lot more advice, but I'd rather give it to some different government agencies. [00:07:30] What message would you give to countries like to give to countries affected by AIDS, but yet to embark on the AIDS? Um project? What advice? Yes. What? What encouragement would you give them to? Well, I think that it it really depends on their country. We don't maintain that the quilt is the answer to every culture. Uh, the quilt works particularly well in countries that have a tradition of quilting in America. We tend to think of that as a as a particularly American art [00:08:00] form. In fact, it's not. And there are traditions of quilting that go back for centuries in Africa, for example. But the the the central notion of using artistic expression to help people resolve their grief and to connect them to the larger experience, I think is valid for any culture, any setting, any political system. Obviously, they've got to find out what works for their own particular situation. We have found, though, [00:08:30] with our international department Jeanette and Marcus Wagler that in most of the countries that they've gone to, they've ended up adopting something very similar to what we do. How do you feel as as the person that started this project as the person that first spray paint this friend's name onto piece? How how do you feel now? I have mixed feelings about the quilt. I'm very proud of it. [00:09:00] It's I wake up every day, still, four years later, with a sense of astonishment and wonder that an idea that started in my backyard has now involved so many millions of people and really touched millions of people. And that's very gratifying. And on the other hand, uh, I would have to say that the quilt has failed in what I had thought it would do. [00:09:30] And looking back now, it seems very naive. But I believed on October 11th, 1987 when we unfolded the quilt on the Capitol Mall for the first time in Washington, DC, I believed that the leaders of our country would see it would understand and would be moved and compelled to respond, and clearly that has not happened. So it's very frustrating as we enter the second decade of the HIV pandemic to recognise that [00:10:00] the fundamental issues of the epidemic still have not been addressed by the federal government. So I I'm proud of what we've done. The quilt works. The quilt helps people. It connects them, has it yet, or has anything yet been sufficient to move President Bush and the leaders of Congress? No.

IRN: 507
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/older_lesbians_lois.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003953
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089247
TITLE: Lois - Older Lesbians
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Prue Hyman
TAGS: 2010s; Lesbian Information, Library and Archives Centre (LILAC); Older Lesbians; Prue Hyman; Wellington; archives; elder issues; elders; family; friends; health; history; lesbian; marriage; older age; politics; relationships
DATE: 22 March 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Lois talks about what it's like to be an older lesbian in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Is it OK? You've been thinking of yourself as an older woman and an older lesbian. It's constantly surprising, actually. Prue II. I don't think I've ever had a birthday that's affected me more. I mean, some people find 30 or 40 or 50 or 60 all of those were fine by me. But I can't actually believe that I'm 70. That happened quite recently. Yes, and And that was, um, just, um, three or four months ago. So, um and I, I I don't [00:00:30] I mean, we clearly have an idea in our heads of of, uh, What 70 is. And I suppose at the time that we were growing up, it was old. I mean, my mother didn't make it till 70. My father made it just past 70. And they both in my mind's eye, seemed a lot older to me than I am to me now, if you understand what I mean. Well, I think everybody's saying that, you know, 70 is the old 50 or whatever, and we're lucky we can be more Absolutely. I'm sort of hoping that, you know, 70 [00:01:00] is really the new 40 I'm going to be here for another 30 years or so. It's the number left. That's the problem, isn't it? But but, um, apart from being astonished and I've had a conversation with a couple of other women lesbian friends who've, um, have the same experience, I you know, I I'm lucky because I'm in good health. Um, and the only thing wrong with me really is mechanical failures. My, um, daughter who's a doctor was down. Um, came to visit recently, [00:01:30] and I said, I said accusingly. I don't know why I said it accusing. It's not her fault that I'm 70. Um, I said, I'd just like to run through all the things that are wrong with my body. Sarah, let's start with my big toes, which have got arthritis, and then my my ankle, which goes occasionally for no apparent reason, coming up to my knee, which I pretend has got nothing wrong with it, but actually does twinge occasionally. Um, then we go into some sort of slight bow stuff, which I won't [00:02:00] bother the tape with coming on up to, uh, my hands, which, um, I think are arthritic rather than having oose, and I hope it's arthritic rather than noose and and a shoulder, which I've wrecked playing with the computer. Really? Um, so one way or another, these mechanical details are, you know, very annoying. I think it's better, though. You you separate mechanical from health because, I mean, some people would say I probably not in good health. [00:02:30] Yes, not having cancer. Heart trouble, those sorts of things. And you still walk quite a bit, don't you? Yes, I do. And, um, and I do feel that I'm very lucky because I do enjoy good health. And I suppose that's another thing about growing old. But it's not a I guess it's not a particularly lesbian thing. It's just that it is awful starting to have people you know or friends fail health wise, either mentally or physically. And that's quite hard. More. I've been to more funerals [00:03:00] in the last 10 years than I've ever been in my life before. And, of course, that's ordinary, isn't it? I remember my parents starting to look in the Death Club and go to funerals. It's gone from their generation to our rapidly, and we had friends that died when we were, well, really young, too. Yeah, but I you know, because you, um, had asked me if I do this I. I was thinking about whether there are differences. Um, for lesbians [00:03:30] growing old and for, say, heterosexual women and I, I think there are There is in terms of the quality of friendship. Now, I'm not that I don't want to, um, say that heterosexual women don't have very good friends, and I'm sure they do. And for some buddies and so forth. But I think, um, we cultivate more friends and perhaps more deeper friendships, even with ex [00:04:00] lovers. Perhaps that, you know, and unlike, and that's often I think, unlike, well, it may not be unlike the world now, but it was unlike the heterosexual world when I was younger and in it, and you didn't have any, Uh, you didn't ever see your ex as a after, uh, but, you know, we do, and we can still be very, very close to them. Indeed. And I think that business of having, um, deep and good friendships and friendship circles, um is one place where we may [00:04:30] well have an advantage. Although you often see a lot of heterosexual a group of heterosexual women that you often see at things together, and you know they're doing it, too. But it is a big thing, and it so for some of us who don't have Children, it's a compensation. You, of course, do have kids, which makes you less similar than some. That's right, but But I was thinking about that. You know, I've got, um, my Children. I've got four Children and they've all been scattered around the world. And, um, now they've all come home. There's I've got three [00:05:00] of them plus partners and in two cases, families in Auckland. And I've got +11 has always been in Wellington with her two Children. Um but people have been saying to me, Oh, so you'll be moving to Auckland and my response is, why would I move to Auckland? My friendship circles here. I love my Children, but I don't want to be in their pockets, and I'm sure they don't want me to be in their pockets. I mean, if I got terribly old and decrepit and my health did go, it might be that my Children might have [00:05:30] to look after me. On the other hand, there might be a couple of friends younger lesbian friends who would be happy to take on that role for a while. I don't want to have to leave my house if I can possibly avoid it. Yes, I think that's one of the interesting things as we get to our sorts of ages, the thinking. We may not want to think ahead that much, but one has to do a little bit of thinking ahead of what happens if things fail or whatever. And you've obviously done a little of that, at least. Indeed, Yes, [00:06:00] yes, I think, um well, you know, the turning the the the thing about thinking about being 70 hardly able to believe it also makes you think about this is not so far away. Even if it's 20 years away or 25 years, it's a lot closer than it was when I when I was born. What did I read the other day? Um, good health is only a slower way of getting to death, but like taxis are inevitable. But you would like to stay in your own home. [00:06:30] Yes, as long as you possibly could off. Yes, I would. And, uh, and whether that happens or not, It depends on what happens to my health. I guess I have. Yeah, I have quite a good role model in a, um, a neighbour who lives, who's right next door, who's just coming up to 80 is very staunch, even though she's had quite a lot of bad health. She keeps coming home and does show no sign of wanting to leave. And it would. You'd like it to be this home. I mean, you're up the hill a bit [00:07:00] in Brooklyn. Is it easy? Yes, but it's, um, very good bus service at the moment I drive, Uh, but if I didn't drive, the bus is just across the road. And, um, it's a good service. And this is a flat section, Um, in terms of getting well, I've got a few steps to get to the house, but nothing much. Nothing like a lot of houses in Wellington. Um, yeah. And how about your activities? As are they changing much as you get as I get older? Well, the only thing that's changed [00:07:30] is I'm working less. Um, really I. I do a lot of walking, which I've always done. I'm hoping to do the root burn later in the year. Um, what else? I've been able to take up piano lessons again because, um, because I'm semi retired and that's a joy and a delight because I've got a really good teacher. Rose be who's wonderful and such a good piano teacher. And even if I've done no practise, [00:08:00] every lesson is a joy. Um, and again, you know that's not about being lesbian, I guess. But I, I think we're as I said, I was thinking about this before, and I think we might be a little bit more adventurous than our heterosexual, um, friends who've been in marriages and have, perhaps been tied to a couple activities and so forth that we've made our own way. Whether or not we're in a couple of relationship, which [00:08:30] I'm not, um, presently, um, I. I think we're prepared to do things for ourselves and make our own way, and that I and I think that probably stands us in good stead when we're getting older. What can change? Of course. Um, if you've retired, um, and you haven't had a very lucrative job is that you may find that you can't do some things as much as you'd like to because of lack of money. Fortunately, [00:09:00] I you know, I had quite a good job, and I, um, was able to save quite a bit at the moment. And I've let my Children so much money, which they're paying me back slowly, that I really think I'll be dead before they've paid it all back. So it leaves you enough to do the things you want? Yes. And so? So that's, you know, that's not a problem for me at the moment. Um but I do see that that could be a problem for some people. But for me, um, semi retirement, I say semi because I'm still, [00:09:30] um, I'm editing a little magazine for a women's group and that comes out every two months. Um, so I'm That takes about a quarter of my time, basically. So I've got a lot of time to walk my daughter's dog, which I do every day. Um, do my piano, practise, read and visit friends, have lunch with friends and so forth. Um, which I enjoy doing and it sounds like a good life. It's a It's a very good life. Actually, you do a bit of overseas [00:10:00] travel, too, don't you? Um, yes. I didn't really start doing that until March until after I retired. I, I really have this belief that, um if you're going to be overseas, you should live there for a while. And that's what I did in my younger days. I mean, um, when I was still married before the age of 45 uh, we'd spent three years, 3. 5 years in Cambridge. Um, when I was in my twenties, I had my first child there. [00:10:30] And then, um, about 10 years later, we had a year in the States, Um, both in terms of my ex-husband's work work. Um, and that was fabulous. I mean, you do get a much better feel for a country than you do just by being a tourist, but, um, after I retired and I had a, um what was a very sad break up for me? I actually just wanted to get out of the country for a while, So I went to, [00:11:00] um was the first place I went because AAA lesbian friend was taking a little group, and I thought, Yes, i'll go. And and it was lovely. I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed the company and I got a bit of a taste for it. It's it's different. It's more. Oh, I don't know. It's like a, um I I've lost the word, Which, which is another thing that happens, actually, as you get older, um, sort of laid back Pacific Island [00:11:30] that Yeah. No, no, no. I was trying to think what you are as a tourist as to what you are if you live there, um, you you're I suppose one word is a succubus, but on the other hand, they do like you to come and spend money. A lot of countries, but and and I've been to some stunning places and, uh, and just love that, um oh, and I also had i before I stopped work. I did go overseas for work as well. And that was that was more, [00:12:00] in a way, interesting and then put holidays onto the end of that. But I've been to Italy a couple of times. I've been to Paris. Um, and I've been fortunate enough to go to Paris once with one of my Children, who's, uh, his colleagues that he's friendly with. There so that was lovely. We stayed at the grandmother's house of his colleague. She lets it out, and it was stunning behind one of those blank Paris walls that look really dreary. And when you open the gate, you go into the [00:12:30] and it's a little street with a great vine growing right up it. And every house belongs to a member of the family. But like Maori, in a way. And, um and we went and had dinner with them. And and it was not like being quite like wasn't quite like being a tourist. So that was lovely. I don't know how I got onto my travel pro. I don't know. I provoked thinking about the activities I knew you did. Yes, but what about, um, community and sort of, um, in broad sense, political [00:13:00] law activities? I know you've been involved in some You've done interviews yourself. Um, has that changed as you got older? What? What's happening there? Yes, I have to say that that's changed. Probably from one view viewpoint for the worst. Because, really, I'm not doing anything very political at all. Now I popped into, um I've been doing some decluttering, you know, rather than people do it when I die, why don't I do it when I'm alive? And I was I've been reading out my books to, [00:13:30] um, books that, you know, I'm going to read again or books that I couldn't get hold of again if I wanted to. And and the others, which can go And, um, there were a couple of books, um, two or three. Well, there were about eight or nine lesbian themed books that I decided I didn't really need, And I rang, um, got hold of Lila a while ago and said, Would you like these? And they had seven of them, but I had had the other three lying around for ages. And I finally thought last night, Wednesday lilac [00:14:00] will be open. And so I went down to the Lilo rooms. Um, and I used to be a member, and I used to be a helper, but I'm not even a member. Now. I'm and I think that's perhaps because I'm in a book group of lesbian women. Uh, and we will swap books all the time, So I don't feel the need to capture the lesbian library to get books, But I must say it was It's a delightful room that they're in now. It's just lovely and very light and airy and and welcoming. And I was delighted to hear from them that they're taking, [00:14:30] um, now taking books up to the lesbian potlucks up the coast. They've been doing that for two times. Otherwise, I would have known because I was there the last, the third last time. But, um, yeah, so I suppose Yes, I suppose I do social things with the community now, but I'm not doing anything political. What about broader politics, though? I know you were. I was very active in the 19 seventies. I was, yes, in the very active in the Labour Party. I mean, I was on the New Zealand Council and the Women's [00:15:00] Council and the Policy Council, and I stood twice, Uh, but the parliament, Yes, I've forgotten that 78 and 81 in Hamilton in 81. It's not the kind of thing that I would ever forget. That was where the game was stopped. And of course. And, um yeah, but I must say that, um, like many people in the Labour Party, um, I became a little bit disenchanted during the early eighties. And, [00:15:30] um, also, I was being, um I was climbing the ladder as a public servant and really, you couldn't be active politically. You couldn't be active politically. And I didn't know that I liked the Labour Party very much anymore at that stage. So I resigned at that stage and and haven't ever rejoined. And I'm not so I mean, I often toy with the idea that green might be the way to go. I always do end up voting labour, but, you [00:16:00] know, it's nice to have II. I couldn't not do that. I belonged. I feel so I so I haven't re What about pressure group politics, though? Are you involved in anything political at all? I was saying to somebody recently, the only worthy thing I do is give blood occasionally. It's sort of quite interesting. So I was thinking about legacies as well, Which is one of the things you know, that I discussed with people talking about You know what? We all, [00:16:30] uh we've got both the business of tidying up, which to some extent you're doing if you're getting rid of books and things. Um but also, you know, what do you want people to remember? You want to leave behind And yeah, not only money, but you know, how do people how are people gonna remember you? How do you want to be remembered? I suppose, Um I mean, I suppose my my most active political, uh, time was first in political parties [00:17:00] in the seventies and then, but also at that time, I was involved in women's stuff. And then I had women's jobs in the public sector in the early eighties. You So I was the, um, women's advisory officer at the now defunct Vocational Training Council. And that was and I suppose in many ways my proudest thing ever was the girls can do anything which I, um, ran during that time. And, um, I think that's a That's quite a legacy, although I must. [00:17:30] It's fascinating the way the phrases stayed on more and women can do anything. But it has taken a much wider meaning than it did at the time. At the time, I was talking about trade, trade, trade, jobs. But I think it I think it also at that time, those of us involved in that kind of work didn't realise how deep rooted, um, attitudes about men's work and women's work were. And [00:18:00] when things change, I think it's the middle classes who lead change. And so what really happened at that time was you started getting women lawyers and women, dentists and women, accountants and all that stuff that you didn't have when I was young. Uh, but you still haven't got many women, carpenters or plumbers or electricians many of those jobs which they could do perfectly well. They're a lot better paid than they even now, than the receptionists and secretaries and so forth that they do and still [00:18:30] do instead, certainly. And I think both men and women are socialised so heavily that the constraints are harder for women who want to do that harder than they were when we were young. We think certainly harder than they are in any middle class job. I don't know. It actually got worse. Yeah, I think I think in some ways it has Really. But, uh, yeah. So So those were the kinds of things that you know I'd like somebody to talk about at my funeral. And, um, yeah, [00:19:00] I'd like somebody to talk about the fact that, uh, you know, the lesbian community is I think it's a great community to be in. And, you know, I mean, I talked about those friendships already, and I think, um, you do make a lot of deep friends, and, um, I got the extra extra connection of sexuality, which perhaps gives a free song even with people that you've never been sexual with. Um, and that's a [00:19:30] nice thing to have as you grow older. I think, um, it sounds like you don't feel very much constraint on anything you want to do now, does it worry you in terms of possible constraints from health or ageing later? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, I can concerned about, um whether, you know, the mechanical things get worse. I wouldn't be able to do as much walking and so forth as I as I like to, but I don't see that happening [00:20:00] very quickly. Um, I mean, you know, you just use various, um, ways of of dealing with all these things, and, um and I suppose that's what I do. I wrap wool around the toes that hurts. And things like that, you know, takes me longer to get ready for the for the for the day that it used to in the morning. And I don't think that's particular. Let something that's true to anybody who's older if you couldn't manage in your own home on your own, at [00:20:30] least because you live alone at the moment. If you couldn't manage that, have you thought about what, What your options will be or what you want them to be? No. I, I really haven't. I haven't considered that option. I mean, I know that a couple of my Children would be very happy to have me move in with them. And I'm not at all sure that I'd want to do that. Um, I mean, if it did ever come to that, that might be the time. I'd reluctantly [00:21:00] go to Auckland, where there are three of them to share me around rather than poor my poor one here who would be all on her own somehow looking after me. Um, on the other hand, if I had lesbian friends who were prepared to kind of flat, um, or be lodgers or something for perhaps a reduced rate and, you know, cook the dinner if I couldn't do that. Um, that would be another option. I mean, there's still other options to help you stay in the house rather than park [00:21:30] on Children. Indeed, we my partner and I talk about that around because there's quite a lot. What's the the local community? Do you have a Brooklyn community or isn't that necessary? It's a broad community, really. I mean, I suppose my well, I I'm very aware of your community is up the coast because a lot of my friends have moved up the coast and keep urging me to move, which I'm not going to do. Um, so I'd say, you know, my nearest and dearest in some ways, there couple of [00:22:00] lots up there, uh, I've got down here in the middle of town. Um, no I. I mean, there there are a few ducks in Brooklyn, but, um, we don't meet for drinks or dinners or anything like that. It's, um I go down the end of my street and I think, Oh, Robin will be there. She's right on the end and Vicky just down the road a bit and so forth. But we don't. You're pretty close to the city anyway, So if you want to go to the lesbian [00:22:30] drinks at or dinner or whatever. So when I said that, you know, I do social things I go to drinks at, um, occasionally. Um, I. I go to the pot. Luck at the coast occasionally. Um, I tend not to go to the singles dinners, but I I certainly, um, we have meals out. You know, my friends and I will eat out or eat at each other's places or have pot plugs or arrange dinners. So it is quite a social time. Yeah, [00:23:00] and that's good. It really it keeps you in touch. So, piano going back to piano seems to be one of the the things. Are there any other things that you want to do that you haven't done? Or were you yet? Well, you talked before about the fact that I had done all those oral histories a while ago. Um, and I and I and you're aware that I did write them up as a book? Um, at the time. And I did try. I tried, um, VUP. And after a long time, [00:23:30] it was at the time that one of their Nigel Cox was dying, and Fergus Barman was very involved with that. And I think that, you know, didn't get round to reading for a long time. Um, but anyway, I did finally get a rejection notice, which wasn't just a slip. He taken the trouble to write a letter. And when I read the letter, I thought, yes, I actually agreed with them. I thought the way I thought that it was boring. Basically, um, it's very hard for oral histories not to be boring. Uh, because [00:24:00] either I remember reading the breaking. I don't know if this is true. We're looking to getting old. Never mind. It's interesting. Um, yes. Um, if you do, you either do it by which I had done, um, by decades. And what happened to all the people I've looked at in the decades and why being lesbian might have made them different from other people in those decades. But that was confusing to the reader. I think people had to keep flicking back to see who the hell I was talking about or you do it one [00:24:30] by one. And some of the, um, some of the tape recordings really didn't allow that wasn't enough material on them. And also, um, I think that gets boring. I read that book about the lesbian nuns leaping the wall, and after about Chapter three, I thought, Oh, God, more of the same and didn't even finish it. And there's been a couple of others like that, too, so that's not the way to do it. And then two or three years ago, somebody suggested to me you could do it by themes and perhaps take one woman to illustrate this theme and just [00:25:00] refer to the others. And I thought that that's one way that it might work and I should get back to it. It's just the thought of redoing it. But every now and again, um, I have a couple of hours free time, and I think I really should look at that. And I think, Oh, God, I need to do the garden or I haven't done the ironing for six months. So it would be a shame for the thing to be lost altogether, though, other than the original tapes, which I know will be available eventually, Yes, would [00:25:30] you contemplate putting it up electronically even if you don't change it? or somebody suggested that to me. In fact, I think that they, um Jenny Barclay said to me that Pat has done that recently with a book published and could and could perhaps, you know, guide me. And I said, Well, if you know, if it's boring as a book, it'd be boring as an online book. And if I can, I guess what I'm saying to you, Prue, is that at some stage I do actually want to bite the bullet and [00:26:00] redo it. And and I could either redo it that way and still make it fairly well. It's, you know, the kind of it's not academic because but it's more nonfictional. Or I could do it in a more conversational way and put myself in it more what was happening for me and what was happening for lots of people. The only thing is that I, um, saw the light rather late, rather late. I remember when I was doing that book. Um, [00:26:30] I there was one woman I was really impatient with as I was, you know, transcribing and thinking about her life was like, for goodness sake, couldn't she have realised a bit sooner? And then I realised actually that she was a little younger than me when she finally came out. Well, of course, that's, uh, that's back to the, um, born or maid or political coming out. We don't all have the same experience. I think we do. Absolutely not. But I sometimes think that you you take, [00:27:00] you make up your life's history according to what's happened later that you know, if I hadn't, um, ever discovered my lesbian as my guest. Um, because I certainly had the opportunity to earlier when I was still married and living in Hamilton, Um, I would have had a different life, his life story about myself. You. Some incidents become more important when you reflect on the [00:27:30] in the in the light of what's happened later, you know, And I can now think that Oh, yes, why? I was keen on very soft me in it when I was at university and young and they never had, you know, they were always like they're always beardless and and smooth skinned and quite young looking is because it wasn't really. I was interested in all that kind of stuff, and I would never have thought of that, you know, we would all rewrite our histories at different at different [00:28:00] times According to what happened at that time. People talk about, you know, novels and non-fiction and almost all non, even nonfiction is perspective, and oh, well, I hope you do do something with it anyway. So So I guess that could be my one political thing, but I Well, I would like to, because actually, there's been virtually nothing done on a on A. In a way, it was a about a community. It was about women all in a in Wellington. And they [00:28:30] weren't They were certainly not in the same class and not even in the same friendship group. But there were links between all of them. Um, and even if they didn't know them, I mean, it was quite amusing to me as the oral historian to think of what had happened to somebody who who was being talked about as having had an affair with somebody early on. And, you know, I knew what had happened to them, and they didn't kind of stuff but the family True stuff again. Yes, yes, Absolutely. Um, but, um yeah, so I and, [00:29:00] um I mean there was There was one about a working class community in the States. And then there was a book by somebody else in the States called older lesbians. And she was so was so imprecise. It made me very cross. You didn't know how old they were. Um, it was just not very well done, I thought. And I thought, you know, at a different time, I think even the book that I did do boring. As as as some aspects were, I think it would have been published if it had been in the States and 10 years earlier. [00:29:30] Uh, I remember the paper you gave on it. Which Yes, yes. Well, I mean, what What I discovered was interesting, I think. Absolutely. Yeah, Well, um, we're nearly there. I just want one more thing, because you you talk as though you know, you're hardly being political at all now, But, um, before we put the tape on, you talked about, You know, um, the only thing about when we go it's so annoying. You want to know what's going to happen about climate [00:30:00] change, for example? So you've got you've obviously got political interests still Well, I forget about the planet. Political environment, political. It's all linked. Absolutely. So indeed, Yes. Oh, I am I. I am interested, and I'm I'm very distressed at some of the things the current government's doing so distress as I may yet become politically political again. Um, I mean, I just cannot believe that silly merger that is being talked [00:30:30] about. I was delighted to hear that they've changed their mind on, um, you know, the merger between Force that even put housing in with with, uh, economic development. Um, it doesn't take into account all kinds of things that we gone back on. The fact not be quite so still 100 and 50 but, uh, and not good. But, uh and, um, yes. And just the cavalier way that, well, [00:31:00] that they're treating the environment and all sorts of things, actually. Oh, and it also just before he resigned Nick Smith's stuff about, um, local government. So they're not allowed to do anything for the cultural social environment, or I think, excuse ridiculous. But they can do libraries. They can do this, they can do that. They are those things. I suspect it's more cosmetic than real. But I hope so. But it's still just the rhetoric around. It is appalling [00:31:30] to get you going again. I might bring that Green Party membership. You indeed? Well, it's lovely to hear that far. And it's lovely to talk to you, Lois. Thank you very much. Thanks, bro.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089248
TITLE: Sue and Berry - Older Lesbians
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Prue Hyman
TAGS: 2010s; Kapiti Coast District; Older Lesbians; Prue Hyman; elder issues; elders; family; feminism; friends; health; legacy; lesbian; marriage; older age; relationships; religion; rural; social; spirituality
DATE: 2 April 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Paekākāriki, Paekākāriki, Kapiti Coast District
CONTEXT: In this podcast Sue and Berry talk about what it's like to be an older lesbian couple in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I don't know whether you happily think of yourself as old or older or elder lesbians. Is that a does that feel right? That sort of does. I think you reach like we've reached the age where we feel we've got to start preparing for old age. But I'm 74 and I'm not old yet, so that's fantastic. It's about it's about thinking ahead, really, in the same way everyone has to. 74 used [00:00:30] to be old and it isn't anymore, which is absolutely But, uh, and I think you're a bit younger, aren't you, Sue? I'm 65 and but it's interesting that we talk about that as different from our mother's generation and and different from. It's certainly different from the straight community that I was in before where Wales didn't work at all. So the 65 I feel quite often if I put myself in the place I was in the place I am now. It's quite experimental, [00:01:00] you know. It's not been done before. It's I'm still working, so I get tired. You know, I have less energy. Um, you know, there are all sorts of things because I'm still working and holding down a job that takes quite a bit of energy, but it's good. It's good. But it's different. Is your paid work How much of a a week? It's only part time. So generally, if I'm lucky, I have Monday and Friday off. If I plan it well. But [00:01:30] you want to have enough energy left for other activities presumably, I mean, what are the sorts of things you are liking to do apart from paid work together and all separately, we would be simple. And don't let me answer all the all the questions, but, um, we would definitely both be singing in the glamour phones. I probably would still sing in the choir. We would definitely be out on bikes doing that sort of stuff more. So the work that thing does impact [00:02:00] on us on energy levels. Yeah, no doubt about that. So you can only do upset of the activities you want to do, and presumably that means you'll get to do four of them when you do get older. And if you manage to do this work, I mean, you're not going to go on doing paper work forever. I don't really, um I don't really want to sort of stop work before I'm 70. Because I love what I do. That's the first thing. The first thing is, I love what I do. The second thing was, I didn't go through a marriage settlement lots of years ago [00:02:30] because of the situation I was in at the time coming out as lesbian and not wanting that to in those days. Um, how do I put this? The impact on my Children. This is not necessarily right. That's where I was back then. The impact on my Children would have been so great. But so we were saying this morning when we went to the lawyers that had I gone for a marriage settlement that was fitting and fair. We [00:03:00] would be in a completely different situation now. And probably I might just work two days a week because I love it. So you you mean you didn't claim as much? No, no, no. Nothing. No, not at all. And why? Why Did was that a matter of your kids? That was about my kids. It was about, um, having my Children taken off me. I had, um and I'd lost my family, and I just thought that that it was too hard to do the next step and know that I and believe at the [00:03:30] time that I probably might lose them all forever because they still held onto the hope for more money. You you might have lost irretrievable damage in terms of relationships, But you know, you're back seeing more of your Children. They are very close. They came back. Two of them returned to me and said they weren't going to be taken away. The third took lots of years quite a few years, but, um, but so that stopped me. That's the impact of coming out as lesbian as against, I think, [00:04:00] a relationship that breaks up. There's a heterosexual relationship that breaks up even if the wife runs away with another fellow or has another relationship with another fellow in time, and that becomes quite acceptable. But not to run away. Not from rural New Zealand did did you have similar experiences when you were married, too, with kids. I was married with kids and I. I think probably the biggest impact for my Children was [00:04:30] that they were required to keep secret that what I was doing, what I was who I was because there was so much shame attached to it. And there was so much discrimination. It was particularly overt at the time. What sort of er were were these 19? 80 right? Yours was similar time or not. So, um No. 1990 I suppose. [00:05:00] Yes. Yeah. So it was very scary. And and all my friendships were around straight. Couples. Uh, yeah, it was very scary. But you too have a lot of contact with your Oh, yeah. We're both very integrated with our families now. And you've both got grandchildren, haven't you? So, um yeah. And so that [00:05:30] facet of as you get older is more similar to heterosexual people in the sense that you've got lots of family, Children, grandchildren. Do you think this? I don't know how long you've been together. Now, quite you didn't come out new, and I newcomers we've been together 10 years, 11 years, 11 years. That's a reasonable time. But obviously quite a long time after you came out. And, um uh, [00:06:00] do you feel that's somewhere where you're more similar with heterosexuals and that you've got these big extended families downwards quite apart from any siblings and and so on. Um, but, uh, do you feel that being a lesbian couple together ageing, you know, Does that have any impact in particular that's different from I mean, you you weren't ageing when you were heterosexual, so it's hard to say, but what? Is there anything you can put your fingers on around? How, um, ageing, as a couple [00:06:30] as lesbians has had an impact was different. I mean, I could go down all sorts of tracks, the one I mean I will come back to the Children. But even the impact of our old lives the other part of our life, for instance, my life was rural New Zealand high profile. But if we go back, then if I go back, we go back, for instance, there are one or two families I'm still close to. They'll have a wedding, for instance. We've just actually come up with a sort of a recipe. Now we don't do some of those [00:07:00] things together. I'll go on my own now. There's no doubt in my head at all that if Barry was Barry, it would be quite different to go back into rural community to a wedding that they're still very nice. They're very nice people and very gracious, But it's very hard to cut through and they know you. It just seems too much effort for both of you just to go together. It's just hard, really hard. People don't know what to say to be so they just say, Hello, Barry, [00:07:30] and then talk to me, Lovely to meet you And then then then, yeah, so that's That's quite marked, You know, we've had to come up with all sorts of It's been quite hard, isn't it? It goes both ways. I mean, both of our families are very accepting of us as a couple. In fact, they value it, but they've come a long way since they have also come a long way since we came out and the world has changed somewhat, [00:08:00] thanks to people who've been out all the time. So yeah, but there are still we are so careful who we come out to mostly that it isn't a big deal, but we still have. It's still a new consciousness, whether it's safe. Yeah, the other thing is, too. We've got different politics and politically [00:08:30] from them. I change from from our Children. So and so my politics are quite different. And they started years ago when I just decided as a farmer's wife, to start doing some sociology papers at me because I felt dumb. So that changed my life but didn't change the lives of everyone around me. And now my Children and my, uh, have got Children. It's really interesting. So how are your politics? And their politics are different because, for instance, particularly around [00:09:00] feminine, masculine and what will be little girls and what will be little boys and how we dress them and what we value and the dolls and the way the dolls are treated and make up bureaus at preschool. It's absolute against my po, my feminine politics. So much so that I'm we both are. But I'm I feel I just don't know what you do with that, you know, extraordinary. Imagine, [00:09:30] and you've had special. You talk about your one of your your carefully and one of them one of my one of my daughters was desperate to have a daughter. She had two sons. The little girl for Christmas one year got a plastic dressing table bureau toy thing. It had makeup drawers it had, which had makeup in them. Big mirror hairbrushes, the whole treatment. [00:10:00] That child's had her hair streaked since she was very little. It's and she's a highly intelligent, very capable little girl. Well, not now as well. But yeah, it's Yeah, it's It's interesting the way the next generation can often rebel. I mean, even if you are a feminist or not, Yes, I think so, Prue, I think, um, but [00:10:30] on the other hand, I think the fact that you're feminist, lesbian feminist means it's easier for them to go. Oh, God, There she goes again. So they've got an out, and that happens over and over again, doesn't it? It does, uh, women shaving their genitals. So, you know, you can imagine some of the things we stand up on our hind legs and say, and it's there. There they go again. Or there she goes again. Yeah. So when you said you wanted to go back to your Children, was this the sort of thing you were going to talk about or something else? [00:11:00] No, No, back. Yeah. Come. Yes. This sort of thing was exactly that. It's because it's it's one of the hard. I mean, it's we just have to shut our mouths and be lovingly accepting. And to some extent, to some extent, I mean because they've lovingly accepted us. And and we're not there, not for that reason. But we do but and also work out what you're going to say carefully. Yeah, it requires a certain amount of diplomacy and, um, closed mouths or and [00:11:30] obviously with big families, your blood family have to take up quite a lot of your time. But you do have lesbian, family, lesbian community as well. Don't you talk about that? That's what keeps us saying, actually, doesn't it? Yeah. And I think as we get older, those people, that community of friends becomes more and more important. Is this what you generally hear? Because this is very, very much so for us. You know, we sometimes come back and we just go, Oh, thank God you're here to our lesbian [00:12:00] friends. I mean, someone like me who has virtually no blood family in New Zealand and has no kids. My you know, I don't even have to appreciate it because it's there for me. Most of the time. I'm lucky in a way, although, of course, nobody regrets having kids. Or and my partner has, uh, has 11 son, sadly, a daughter that died, but but not much family. So she doesn't have those same problems. She's got grandchildren, So we're really probably in a rather [00:12:30] different position where we can be with our lesbian family most of the time. So but I think I have heard other people say what you were. You were just a lovely feeling of just the bond that people have. Most of us have been through a similar process to each other, not the same, but similar. So most of us know that have come out under the difficult circumstances. Know the terrific, um, angst attached to that wasn't there. [00:13:00] Yeah, very much everybody. There's pain attached coming out, and in the early days, so and it's lovely, you don't have to. We just know that of each other, don't we? We know each other in a way. We didn't I think that we didn't know our heterosexual friends when we were married, and even for those of us who, like me, came out much younger and, um didn't have the issues of of um uh, being in a heterosexual marriage [00:13:30] or anything, you still had those things. I was out in the sixties, so I had my mother to worry about and a community yours must have. I mean, you're the courageous ones. That's definitely the case. But some of it's what? You know, I mean, we Yeah, we used to get I think we've both had examples of in the early days people, not you, but people like you sort of making sure we know, in fact, feeling quite resentful that you've paved the way for us to come [00:14:00] out. Well, it certainly, I mean, the real pioneers. Who, uh, who have I mean, I came out more as a sports lesbian. Um, and what didn't get the politics so much until later? The early political people that did circle and so on. Now, what about the business of of just living as you get older and the issues you face and whether or not they're associated with being lesbian? I mean, [00:14:30] we all have to face health and money, and so on issues. Is there anything around that? Should you, um, where are we going to be buried or burnt together? or not. I mean, that's that's a bigger one. I don't know if it's bigger that that those sorts of issues bring me back to spirituality, spiritual issues. And they've changed for me hugely. And I'm still sitting there in a and a bit of a, um [00:15:00] no woman's land, working out what the next step. And I think that happened to quite a lot of us, too. You know, for me, it was different for you from you. You were because you were brought up. Yeah, yeah. Whereas for me, I I was brought up. I played the organ every Sunday in an Anglican church and at weddings and in funerals. And so Anglicanism was just who I was and took Children's choirs and you know everything and I haven't found. And and the lesbian coming out [00:15:30] as a lesbian didn't need to impact on that at all, except it did that did. Can you say at all how, uh, well, I guess the beginning of it was I guess the beginning of it was, um, around feeling judged and being judged and feeling a loss of my of the church family, and I did. But that's nothing to do with it now. What it's to do with it now [00:16:00] is that I don't actually believe all that stuff. I used to believe. I've got a different take on things. I don't know if that's even relevant for now. Why is it an issue for you now? Because I can't because it's really comfortable and nice. There's a comfortableness along about going somewhere and singing the wonderful music. And you do that, don't you? I talk about singing Jewish on Saturdays as Christian on Mondays, and I just regard it like literature. You know that, [00:16:30] um, like, you can read Shakespeare or the Bible or whatever, as as literature, I can sing. Uh, that's a good That's a good way of looking at it. Yeah, our life together as we get old, gives me the horrors to think that we could ever have to end up in Seven Oaks or anywhere like that. Sitting amongst a group of people who are all heterosexual. I used to think that we both said we'd visit my mother over in master and one, and we used to think [00:17:00] how alone and lonely wouldn't it just be the absolute end, if that's what happened, and I think that's we assume. In fact, we've experienced in those places that there's an assumption of heterosexuality. So you're always up against that assumption? Absolutely. And that's why some people are trying to set up lesbian villages, the homes. But ideally, you would like to stay here [00:17:30] in your beautiful house in as long as you possibly could. Absolutely. And then when we're hobbling in our wheelchairs by the little place next door. So we're in the same street and have all there are lovely little flats around the corner that other lesbians and have a little enclave or by the beach or something. But not there wouldn't be the same we come to If you found something, wouldn't we? We just can't afford it. So the other problem. It's of the issues [00:18:00] of of health and and, um, finance and so on, you know? I mean, we're probably looking at this house and no mind where it must be in better places financially than some lesbians are, but there's there's no assurances. That's right. That's right. Have you done any thinking ahead about those money issues we put in a lift for wheelchair where where is that. [00:18:30] Oh, you can have arrived in it shortly. So that brings up all our firewood and into the house with our groceries. Suitcases if we're travelling. Wonderful. Yeah. So that's made us feel confident to stay on here because you both had some health issues, haven't you? Nothing life threatening. Well, I've only had joint [00:19:00] issues, so just get them replaced. Yeah, And every month that I get away from, you know, every month is freer than I was the month before, so but our main issue is working out How you know, you'd be the same. You've got a certain amount of money saved. How long is it going to last you before you've got to leave this place or leave your place. Yes. Well, I haven't had dependent, so I'm [00:19:30] hoping the answer is never. But it isn't necessarily for everybody. And it's how to arrange things if possible, if you can. I mean, there's things like reverse mortgages, which, um I don't know whether you've thought about, but we have We have Someone was saying the other day they cost such a lot of money. New Zealand is not geared up well, for which is a pity, but it is possible. We're also making it. I mean, I guess this is a general issue. Actually, it's not exclusively lesbian, but [00:20:00] we're making sure our Children know what we want and don't anticipate a windfall when we die. Yeah, because we feel absolutely free to spend whatever we've got. We've earned it. Well, also, we have to if we want to stay in our lifestyle and do what we're doing and sitting here having cups of tea and with Prue Hyman, and then we need money and it's ours. And just as one shouldn't be, presumably, I mean, some [00:20:30] couples, um, heterosexual or lesbian or gay? I don't know about gay men. I mean, sort of have some assumption that, um their kids will look after them when they get older on the one hand. And kids have expectations of money, on the other hand, and in fact, you can't be sure about either. Yeah, exactly. The the The Children don't have any expectations that they have to look after us at all, do they? Well, I think that [00:21:00] probably will be there for you and your son, But you wouldn't want to have to be dependent on. Never. I never make an assumption. I mean, one of my sons has said yes, your kids will look after you, and they can, but, um, I don't want to make that assumption. That's I want to Yeah. Now you talked about, um, how you you know, because you're still working. You don't do as much singing and, [00:21:30] um, want to do other things as you want. What what are the Are are there other activities you want to do? More of as you as you get older and and have, um, maybe have more time. But on the other hand, we also slow down a bit. Other things you want to do. I want most of our music. It's music. It's music or attaching things attached to the beach. But also when when did we last see you and sit down? This is absolutely lovely, [00:22:00] you know, And and actually, because our social life has shrunk and it's on purpose, it used to be far too big. It shrunk, and some of it's wrapped around the fact that I'm still working and that makes it sound like a bird. And it's not. It's because I love it and we choose it, and Barry still does some of her things. Um, but I think most of it will be having the the joy of Imagine today, Prue. We could have rung up you and vice versa and said, Hey, it's a lovely day. Let's hop on our backs and meet some halfway [00:22:30] and have a of tea, that sort of thing. That's community, that's lesbian community. And that's the sort of thing that I really hope happens. What about other things? I mean, do you want to travel or, um, anything like that more? I'm not fussed about there. I love it. I love it, but But there's that sense that and this is not particularly lesbian either, I think. But if I wanted to travel, I'd far rather travel with Sue. [00:23:00] But also I would be taking too big a piece out of the pie. I think that that's very much in there. Yeah, so, um, travelling is very on the back burner and I think that's what it is. I think it's absolutely so become quite psychological now inside me, like we won't be doing that because we did a big trip last year and another big one the year before the year or two years before that. Um and they cost a huge amount [00:23:30] of money. They did that. It's actually not feasible now. And And we might do things like be big and brave and go to parts of Northern Australia or to the Islands. But we haven't got the money. We're just not resourced enough to even think like that. Prove that's gone. So you had your last two? Basically, Yeah. Yeah. And we're just not. And now we've just had one of my Children and family have just settled here. They've just come over from Europe unexpectedly, [00:24:00] and they've settled here. So we actually hasn't haven't got any Children or close mates or anyone over the other side of the world to pull us over there like you've still got your your, um, connections, Special connections. We don't I don't You don't either. He's just Yeah, yeah, Long way away. But at least in New Zealand, Yeah. And no sisters or brothers or I mean, you've got [00:24:30] strong connections over there. Still just a bit more friends, One brother in America, otherwise friends. But but, you know, because I didn't have dependent, I guess. I. I can still do it if I want to. And, um And what about Do you ever think at all? I mean, as you say, you don't feel old, is you know, we hope we've all got lots of years to go, But do you ever think at all about you know, afterwards and And how will you be remembered or anything you want [00:25:00] to be remembered by or? I mean, you've got the kids, Of course. So you have automatic them people remembering you. I'd hate to think, uh, my, my, the women on my mother's side of the family right back are strong women with stories to tell pioneering women in lots of ways with stories to tell. In some ways, in my family, you could say I'm a pioneering woman like I've done things that haven't been done before [00:25:30] because certainly we think now that there was probably a lesbian Aunt Gladys in the process and gay uncles in the South Island. So what am I doing about that? Nothing. Except that How are we going to be remembered? Because we need to be remembered that Sue and Barry were a partnership and Sue was a lesbian and we need to be remembered. I don't know. I mean, some of it I'm wondering like I've got this big [00:26:00] new project that I'm sat in this room with a big pile of campus on the floor and I'm going to whittle. I'm going to put it, turn this room into a wood carving and I want to make a totem pole there. He's been to see Alan, whatever his name is looking for a tutor. And he said to go to because I want someone to teach me how to do it. Yeah, and part of it is I want to have us. It won't be all the Children, but it will be burying me and the and the mountains we've loved. And there's something on it that's [00:26:30] going to be a statement. That and I've got that far. So I'm looking for a couple of Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. There isn't it? And God help. Yes, that's right. She might want to write that something to go with it. It sounds like you know you want to be remembered as a couple. I often wonder whether people want to write mini autobiographies, not publication or It's a lot more. People are doing oral history of their family [00:27:00] sort of thing. Um, yeah, it's just, um I think it'd be Yeah. It's a good conversation to continue, actually, isn't it? Because I would say a family of strong women. My mother was she was at my age, protesting against the Springbok to in the 1980 something she belonged to. Do you remember an organisation called S OS? Abortion rights. And [00:27:30] she was a very She got a degree at a time when women didn't go to university. What was her name? May long. Oh, yes. I didn't even realise. There you go. I heard she worked in the university library for years. I didn't even know she was your mother. There you go. So she was? Yeah, she was very. And she was quite radical, [00:28:00] wasn't she? She was very independent thinking, as was her mother. Yeah, she is. She was She had to get to house train, Dad, He he was very conservative. Just thinking of legacies and being remembered. Of course, Um, as you mentioned your ongoing activities and one of those is that you're a celebrant. Of course. So you've been involved with other people. Sort of being talked about you. You've You've done one or two at least lesbian funerals. Have you? Um, yes, [00:28:30] I've done a few civil unions. Um, yeah, it's That's a very special thing to do. It feels incredibly privileged to be facilitating, I suppose for what I would be a word, but to be such an integral part of a huge event in somebody's life and I love it, I absolutely love it. Yeah, and certainly the lesbian funeral. I won't mention the name that we talked of a little before. We started this tape, [00:29:00] which is a friend of mine, who you did one for. But she was not very out, But there was still just enough stuff around her being a strong woman and I, I think. Probably I. I outed her at the, uh, ceremony because I can't help myself. She asked you to speak, so she must have known she was taking a risk. But have you done one for any really out lesbian? No, I'm not. Probably will, but it was a very interesting experience [00:29:30] planning that funeral because she was very involved in it herself. I mean, the ceremony was how she wanted it, which was really nice. It was nice to know that she'd got what she wanted, and I mean and she was so totally involved with women. I mean, she had her family, but she she had a She had a lovely too Yes, and he was out just as a gay man. And she herself [00:30:00] had been involved in sports teams and was very, very involved with other women. That's right. Yeah, that the experience is probably different for people like that who are not that out. You know, I'd like to interview one of them too, but it might be hard to get them to do that. You put your name on it will be a challenge. We made quite a few conversations about our own funeral [00:30:30] and what the hell we're going to do about that and what that's gonna look like. And anything you want ramifications about that? Well, because it's like, Yeah, exactly. You've got the two and and us. So the lesbians, Uh uh, family and, uh well, we're in the middle of it. We're part of each and the lesbian funeral. That or or celebration that we imagine is out lesbians would [00:31:00] be one. That would be fine for our kids, I think, Yeah, I think it would be very fine for our kids now. I mean, the kids have gone through a process with us. Well, certainly there's been There's been plenty where the combinations worked, Right? Bronwyn Dean, Judith, Dale. I'm thinking of funeral people. I very close, very close to. And the families were good about everything, but it was they were very heavily a lesbian. Funerals as well. I think part of the difficulty is certainly in my case. My Children don't know [00:31:30] very many of our lesbian friends because they don't live here. They don't come across them, whereas your kids have had more of a chance to get to know some of your friends. So it would probably be a little bit like a New Zealand party with men around the bar. But nevertheless, they know that we expect to have anybody who wants to be there. And they need to prepare themselves for that and to speak, to speak, [00:32:00] to see what your what You meant to that? Yes, exactly. Yeah. I think you should have actually should have a joint. Wait long before you did as well. I think that it was, but she didn't want any speeches or anything. It was just a party, really, wasn't it? Um, and she didn't want any sort of. And she was very at peace with the fact that she was dying. [00:32:30] That was an amazing one, because it was so fast. I mean, she hadn't had a day's illness, and then suddenly she had a bad cancer and she was dead within three or four months, and, uh, she was amazing. She was, Yeah, She said, I've had a really good life and I have no regrets, and I'm ready. But yes, I think that that's the other thing that we need to do for our Children. Because, um, my kids have just been through that with their own father. They with their father, who died very suddenly. [00:33:00] So they had to sort it all out. Um, which is when they started saying to us, You've got to get clarity about your well, and you've got to get clarity about how you want your funeral to be and following along that that business about us afterwards and what we leave the legacy just to we haven't really. We've got to funerals and things, but actually the most. The most significant or the most important thing would be that we're either burned in our ashes, put somewhere together [00:33:30] or buried next door to each other with a with something that says Be, um so partner, lifelong partner or or whatever. That's what has to happen, actually, isn't it? And that's what we need to everything. I mean, that's in the newspaper acceptance, because it's sad when when it isn't like that. I've just had one of in the cricket [00:34:00] community where the odd much older partner died and it was just, you know, lifelong friend or something. You know, it's sad when I think it's sad when it's also part of the whole sense of insecurity around the public. Actually, that was something lovely that happened when my mother died last year. You remember that that my mother, who had such a struggle and towards the end of her life group, is hugely attached to Barry and [00:34:30] the person in my family that knew that was my sister. And when it came to putting the the death notice in the paper, that was, um, going to be very formal, and she was the the late, bloody, blah, blah. And then it came to be and there was a bit of hesitation around that, and my sister was the one. Do you remember that? She just said She's partner of Susan. That's what's to go in the paper. So Barry, partner of Sue and said lots of people commented on that it was a real [00:35:00] go for us and my family, especially for a family that has historically been so conservative. It was absolutely amazing, and we expect a backlash from other members of the family. I was just thinking, We must remember that here we lie together alongside each other in whatever shape or form. I think all three conversations I've had, there's been somebody think Oh yes, that's a good idea to it, which is, which is a nice [00:35:30] um, I sort of I can't think of anything particular else I want to ask you. But have you got any thoughts, any more thoughts about anything that we think about it and we did things I think, um, I don't know whether I said this before. I think that there's an issue about next of kin. If you're in hospital and who's your next of kin and do you have to prove it when it's a natural assumption? Assumption. If you're married [00:36:00] that your marriage partner is your next of kin and it's, you know you have to convince the hospital staff. Yes, I mean, I think that's a very serious one. I mean, I at any age I remember because when I was partners with Bronwyn and and she got it all quite young and, uh and things happened, like, actually cut crossing out next to kin and partner or something and putting friend cutting out. That's right, crossing out, putting friend. Now they're [00:36:30] not meant to do that anymore. But a lot of people aren't, but some of them will, because of their own beliefs. Yeah, yes, we do have to watch that. That's a biggie, actually, and you can see that that could happen because there are little pockets in the family already. For instance, in my family, who sometimes I'm known as Grand Sue to the Children, right, so some of them will walk in and say, Hey, here's Grand and Bey's house. One or two of them come in and say, Here's Grand Sue's house. Here's grand. [00:37:00] It's true, isn't it? Yeah, so that's just one step of it. Would be quite easy. And you've just got to protect yourself from that. That's because that's quite a biggie. And I mean, if you don't have things very clear, then if one member of your family is not too good, they can convince an authority, a hospital or something that that daughter or son or whatever is the the main person. Not, yeah, it's great. You've got your powers of attorney and the things that you can produce. [00:37:30] And we did that quite a while ago. Yeah, yeah, well, let's hope none of this is relevant for a long period. There won't be because we're going to have those bike rides on the beach and have a cup of tea. Well, thank you very much for for talking to me today. It's been, uh, it's been a very pleasant experience for me, and I hope you it's been great. Thank you. [00:38:00] It's been very thought provoking, So thank you.

IRN: 500
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089245
TITLE: [name withheld 6] - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Karangahape Road; Q12 (series); bisexual; coming out; correspondence school; drag; gay; homophobia; mental health; relationships; religion; school; sex; sex work; social media; youth
DATE: 2 April 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast [name withheld] talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? Good. That's good. So can you tell me a bit about yourself? Um, I'm 20 blonde. I live on the shore. What are your interests? Animals, music, films, squirrels, squirrels. Cos Yeah. Um, what school did you go to? Uh, where's the Wellington? Wellington? So you're originally from Wellington? [00:00:30] Yeah. OK. You have to tell me the story about this one is a correspondence school. I didn't do well in mainstream, So, um, do they like ship you off to Wellington or something? You know, they ship the work here. Huge labs. They've got offices and liaison teachers here. Me saying ship. You schools me saying ship you off to Wellington. That sounds like a a donkey. A donkey. [00:01:00] OK, so, um, you are 20 right? So what is your gender? I'm a male. Do you identify with that gender? Yes. Um, what is your culture or ethnicity? Why? And do you Are you religious? God, no. God. Well done. Definitely not. Um What is your sexuality? Gay? Most of the time. Most of the time. How [00:01:30] about the other times? A little straight gay so slightly by, but mainly gay. Yeah. OK, so to have some love on the side every now and then. So, um what? When did you realise, um, when my brother's best friend started turning me on? That's the general gist of it. Um hm. Maybe about 13. [00:02:00] 13. So, um, when you realised, did you How did you feel? Dirty wrong. Is it kind of like that feeling that you want to keep a secret from everybody? Yeah. My family is very religious, which is ironic since you're not religious. Yeah, you kind of go that way when it gets shoved at you. So you've got a whole bunch of pets. I see. Yeah, I've got my little boo boo Nala [00:02:30] and lots of fat cats. They're just like you feed me. I'm like hell, get your own food. I'm not going to catch it. That bird, not the bird in the cage. Rather being outside sparrows. Um, the little bitch did that yesterday. Where my skin Just here. Well, you know what cats do They come, they come. They give you a bird. Say, Oh, I love you. Thank [00:03:00] you. Here's a bird. No, I don't bloody give a shit anyway. Um, off topic here. Um So how Did you come out or are you out? I'm out and my shrinks actually outed me Shrinks how? They asked me, and I was straight up with them. And before I had the chance to even get home, they had already rang my parents and told them so I didn't really get the chance, [00:03:30] so that it's kind of obvious anyway. So how about for your friends? Oh, fuck them. You know, they all knew everybody kind of knew it was like, Yeah, well, that's not a surprise. So it was, like, awesome. How about the birds and the cats and stuff like that? Oh, they came later. So did you come out to them now? No, but I've got gay animals. Really? Please tell me. We've got, like, little gay birds [00:04:00] that sleep together, and they're really, really cute. I love birds are just little finches. What is a a little bird smaller than a sparrow? Are those like, little $5 ones that you can get from the $5 ones? My ass. Really? I've got down there. It cost 300 a pair. I'm actually thinking of a different food. Um, yeah. Um [00:04:30] who are these Gay birds. Yeah, definitely gay. So, um, females, the lack of females. All right, So, um, how did you, Um, And in terms of social media, did you come out straight away, or did you hide any of it or anything like that? No, I've always just been myself. I've got a theory. If people don't like it, they can fuck the world. [00:05:00] Yeah, pretty much. I do what I want when I want. I don't make people stop me. So talking about social media, how do you meet other people? Oh, you go out, you go bar hopping, you go clubs the internet after you've blocked out all the dirty old men. So as in, um, bar hopping, Do you go to any specific places? You know, all the ones with the gays hang out. So it does. So what do you [00:05:30] do when you do the, um, gay bar thing? They get drunk. Apart from that? Um, I don't know. Talk to randoms, see if we hit it off. Does that work? Sometimes. Do they generally come up to you? Some people do some some some and, um, do you go? What do you do? You Do you go to their place. Yeah, sometimes. So, um, when it comes to Internet, [00:06:00] what sites do you use? Um, grand. It's on my phone. It's awesome. Anything else? No. Are you sure? Yes. Not manhunt or NZD? Never heard of it. And I got banned from NZD. Why is that Solicitation? 60, what? Life for money. Um, [00:06:30] would you like to elaborate on that? No. The past life. Yeah. It was my other soul. It was my twins. Yeah, exactly. It wasn't me. I blame the birds. Oh, yeah. It's all their fault. The gay birds and the gay cats, lazy cats and the gay birds. And the fact you're next door. Oh, did you say that? I guess I did. So, [00:07:00] um, where was I? Oh, yeah. Um, So when you came out, um, did you ever had a relationship? That was someone that was in the closet. No, no, I knew no gay people before that. Basically. So, um, when you came out, you started socialising a bit more with the gay scene. Yeah, definitely not like a right fag, like [00:07:30] some of those perks. So Oh, dear. You, um So what did you feel like? How did you feel when you were in the closet and you didn't know anybody? Um, normal, I guess because that's all I'd known. Did you feel like you were, like, the only one in this world or something similar to that? Yeah, pretty much. I was, like, no Ever had those thoughts that were like, Oh, I'm not the only one. [00:08:00] There's 5 billion people out there. Oh, God, no. I never thought anything like that. So, um, when you first realised that you had any did you went through a denial stage. What was that? Like that I don't really remember it. It was a long time ago. Many year, many year. Yeah. So I'm going now. So did you. So did you have any, um, support? Um, [00:08:30] no, no, no. Nobody was very supportive of me. How about you? You had your shrink so useless bunch of twats. I wouldn't trust them with anything after that. Opening up to them and talking to them was the last thing I wanted to do. So, um, in a way, that's, um They broke confidentiality out from that pretty much, but yeah, because I was under 16. It was all legal. [00:09:00] So um, you've been in relationships before, right? Yeah. Would you like me to tell? Would you like to tell me some of those experience from those? They were all assholes, and they deserve what they got. Yeah. So what could you tell me? Some of those experiences? Um, me and my first partner. He was the first guy I ever dated, and we hit it off. Um, [00:09:30] we dated for about a year, and then we lived together. So and then we broke up because he was a right prick. Um, good general reasons. Yeah. Good general reasons. He was a my second partner. Fucked off to Liverpool after a few months. I know English people. Something to do with the stupid rugby. I never understood it. So engage me. So, [00:10:00] um, when you first so kind of affected your relationships because you didn't meet any other gay people when you first came out. Because before then you didn't know anybody. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. So, um, you meet other people through men, you don't meet each other. Other people from manhunt, you meet other people from grind grinder. So, um, does that work well for you? Sometimes Normally, for hookups. Anything [00:10:30] other than hookups? Dirty photos. Ah, again, General reasons. Shit. Um, so just every gay boys dream. Yeah. So there's this thing about virginity that goes around that everybody has a different perspective on it. What is your definition of virginity? Unless it goes in more than [00:11:00] an inch, it doesn't count more than an inch. Is that do you think It's only your sexual thing. Um, yeah, Sex is sexual. I mean, virginity is that only a sexual thing? I think it's stupid. All that pressure that's put on it. I don't understand it. It's just sex. I mean, I have sex all the time. So does the bird. I mean, it it it's natural. [00:11:30] And you hear it for the birds. Well, I would hope not from here, but yeah, but yeah, people just put too much pressure on it. So, um, have you ever experienced any abusive behaviour or abuse because of your sexuality? I got called a faggot one time in town, and I called them cunts, and that was about it. So where [00:12:00] I live, I don't get that. Did you have the brawl on the side streets? No. Um, do you get a lot of abuse on Cairo. No, I'm normally the one abusing the drags, If anything. So you don't like the drags? Oh, God, no. I don't think it's natural, Not natural. So how about, um, taking out the as completely that? Hm? There's nothing natural about 4 ft feather here. So you kind of like a drag ao [00:12:30] kind of thing. Oh, yeah, definitely. It just a car. Oh, no. The bird drop a carrot. Um, So what was it like growing up for you? You growing up? Um, it was good. So, silver spoon up my ass, I guess. Real Ponzi silver spoon up your as I've never heard that saying before. Uh, no. What is the expression, um, brought [00:13:00] up the silver spoon or something? Yeah. I always got everything I wanted, so I'm very spoiled, as you do. Still to this day on certain things. Not everything. Everything. Don't be stupid. Of course I'm spoiled. Spoiled? Yeah. Looking at all the expensive stuff I own. IPhone, TV. Oh, look, this guy, Joe. Holy crap. [00:13:30] So So you've had a good upbringing. I am. Has, um So you're not religious now, But you were once right, kind of I was forced to go to church, and I think that's what pushed me away more than anything. So do you think that, um, that affected your sexuality in any way? I don't think religion [00:14:00] should have anything to do with somebody's sexuality. Do you believe that sexuality is a choice or let's say, um what it is it a choice? Or it's just who we are, who we are. I mean, is it just who we are? If you want to go out and have sex with the chick, do it. If you want to have sex with a guy, do it Either way, there's nothing wrong with it. Fun. Fun? Yeah. I mean, it's just sex, the feelings. [00:14:30] Everybody has them. So, do you have a big sexual history? Um, in comparison to others? No. Would you like to hear that break? Um, no. My sex life is, um, healthy. Hm. That's [00:15:00] good. Saying so do you use protection and everything like that? Oh, God, yes. I would never have unprotected sex. So seeing people that have HIV and the stuff they go through, I got tested a few months ago after unprotected sex and I sat there, And I almost cried waiting for the results. And I was going, Oh, my God. What the heck? He is going to happen. When did you When? Where did you do that? At the at. The doctors. You know, they've got little clinic things at the sexual [00:15:30] health clinic. Yeah, they take blood from your finger. I'm hard enough to him for that. You busted, You talk to Nobody touches my blood. Yeah, so I'm negative. So that's good. Yeah. OK, thank you for the interview. You're welcome. Thank you.

IRN: 499
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_aaron.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003950
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089244
TITLE: Aaron - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Auckland; Bay of Islands; Family Bar (Auckland); Karangahape Road; Q12 (series); abuse; coming out; friends; gay; homophobia; relationships; scene; takatāpui; youth
DATE: 2 April 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Aaron talks about being young and takataapui / gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? Very good. What do you do? I am a bartender at Family bar. Bartender at Family Bar. Yes. So are you just a bartender or a manager? I am bar manager. Something you have to get used to now? Yes, definitely. So while you're so we can get a little bit knowledge about yourself, Um what are your interests, or can you tell us about yourself? Um, I like bartending. [00:00:30] Um, drinking, partying, being social, dressing up in weird outfits. Not drag, though. Um um, being crazy, Um, that pretty much sums up everything I could have. Probably just said being crazy, but, you know, Yeah, I think you don't need to dress up as dragon family because Robina does it at all for you. Um I don't know if she does drag, but she definitely does have a presence. She has her own. [00:01:00] She has a new therefore drag. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Avant garde. Very, you know. Yeah. So, um, how are how are you? How old are you? I am 25 25. Um, what is your gender identity? I am gay male. Um, what is your culture identity? I am part Maori, part European. So I'm probably more [00:01:30] Maori rather than Yeah. So your sexuality is Takata? Pretty much. Yeah. So when did you first realise, uh, when I was 12? You want to elaborate? Um, when I was 11, I had this crush on this girl, and, um, when I came back after Christmas, I had a crush on her brother. Oh, that was interesting. How did you feel when you realised that you had a crush on the former crushes girl's [00:02:00] brother? Um, I still had a crush on her, but I had a crush on him, and, um, I had no idea. I was just I don't know, I kind of thought it really strange. And I thought it was probably just a phase, and I'll probably go grow out of it or something. I don't know pretty much when you're that age. You don't really sort of Yeah. You know what gay and was when you were at that age? Yes, I did. So did you think that Oh, maybe I'm buy or [00:02:30] something like that? No. Wasn't really a thing where I was growing up, To be quite honest in the nineties. Um, no, it was. Yeah, that was the nineties, actually. Well, what were we wearing in the nineties? I can't remember what we were wearing in the nineties. Um, cargo pants, army cargos. I think they were. That was a big thing. Um, what else was we were wearing? Um, [00:03:00] just really horrible looking clothes. Um, anything. The Backstreet Boys wore things today. They would just look at old photos and be like, Oh, God, I wore that. I don't have any old photos. I burnt them. So, um, when you first realised, um, did you ever thought that you had to keep a secret from everybody? Yes, pretty much it. It pretty much stayed to myself. I did not, you know, because I didn't want to come out and then, you know, be like, Oh, I'm gay. Or like, oh, I'm [00:03:30] this or label myself because I don't really You know, I don't really like label labelling people or being labelled. Yeah, and plus, it was the nineties, and it was the nineties, late nineties, but still in the nineties, nineties or nineties, and that's what matters. Um, So what was your general feelings that you had around that time? Um, sort of confused. Um, I was kind of like, like, sort of just, you [00:04:00] know, just looking at guys. I don't know. It's kind of a little bit strange. Really? For me, For me at that stage? Oh, yeah. Looking at guys in the distance from a distance, some of them probably knows. Probably thought I was a little bit weird, which I was anyway, so it kind of didn't really It's OK. We're all weird. Um, that's what our community is, the weird people. Um, So, um, are you out of the closet now? Yes, [00:04:30] I am. Completely. Completely. Yeah. There's no doors left. I don't even think there's a closet left anymore. Four is the closet. It's walking. Yeah, I know. And it's full of my costumes. So, um what? How did you come out of the closet? Um, it was really late. Actually, I was almost 21. It was about a week before my birthday. And, um, I most of my friends were straight, and I'd sort of, like, been to the family twice. Only twice at that [00:05:00] stage. And I we played truth with there, and I told them that I was gay. Yeah. Did they have like, um, ID a or something like that. Or, um, the reaction was just, um and and then we just kept on drinking. How lovely. So, uh, how about for your family? How did you tell your family? Um, my my mom pretty much found out later on. And then, um well, my dad was already dead, [00:05:30] so he never found out. Um, yeah, everyone just pretty much slowly found out after that. And when I went up north, they pretty much already knew as soon as I arrived that I was gay and everyone was, you know, really happy about it. My family is, you know, they didn't really care about that sort of thing. They're sort of like, I don't know, country Maori people. So to say, who gives a crap? Did you arrive like, very flaming or something like that? No, not at all. But I mean, compared [00:06:00] to, you know, say a farming community. I suppose someone wearing anything with a label on it is probably considered a little bit gay. Does look at any boy from the city all those city boys, they must be gay. Yeah, pretty much. No I. I don't know um, I think they they just kind of knew when I arrive. I was just, you know, more confident. And before that, you know, while I was in the closet, if I could probably say [00:06:30] that, You know, no one really asked me if I was gay, but yeah, um, I was kind of a little bit more reserved, A bit more quieter. Not as outgoing, not as expressive. Probably just pent up. So you're originally from the country, then? Yes. I'm from the Bay of Islands. Small place called Sort of, um, gravel roads. And, you know, no shops at all. Sort of a nothing place, [00:07:00] but, you know, Yeah. So you live in the city now? Yes. I live in Auckland. Auckland City boy from family. Yeah, pretty much so. Yeah. Um, So when you first came to the city, how old were you when you came to the city? Uh, when I came to Auckland, I was 16. Were you with your family or, um, I pretty much got moved around like through family members. So I was living with my grandmother. My dad had foster parents, foster parents, kids. I was staying [00:07:30] with them for a little while, um, back around. I moved around a lot, so eventually ended up at my mom's down in. And then we moved up to Auckland because it was going to be better for me, for my studying and stuff. And I was really into astronomy, So, yeah. Are you still into astronomy? Um, not really. No, I don't really have much time for it, but I don't know, I kind of just lost that sort of, you know, aspect. After my dad died. Yeah. [00:08:00] So when you came to, um, Auckland was like going through the big changes. Um, it was OK, actually, I was kind of, um of before, As soon as I turned 15, I became a little bit more social and, like, you know, got a few more friends and things like that. Whereas before that I was pretty much the loner type person that got beaten up and picked on a lot. And I know when I moved to Auckland, I kind of had a group [00:08:30] of friends and they kind of started just I don't know, Maybe I got on their nerves or something, so I kind of figured out the best way was to, um, make a whole bunch of groups of friends. And then when one group pisses me off, well, I, you know, get on their nerves. I'll just move on to the next one and hang out with them and hang out with another group and hang out with another group. And pretty much, yeah. Um, So when you first realised, did you win for a big denial stage? [00:09:00] Pretty much, Yeah, until I was about 14. And then I kind of like how you say, hooked up with a guy. One of my friends kind of just do all those experimental things. And I was like, Oh, I'll just get this out of my system type of thing, you know, as you do, you're naive. You say, Oh, just do it once and it go away, And it really didn't It probably made it worse. What about for him? Did it went away for him? Was that when he was going [00:09:30] through the experimental stage that he got out of that phase that he thought it was a phase, or did he actually got worse as well? Um, I think he was bisexual, not actually gay, but, um II I kind of feel like when I when I met him. Later on, even though nothing happened, I kind of felt like maybe, you know, he was a little bit still bisexual. So, um, did you have any support? Um, when you came out? Um, [00:10:00] not really. Um, when I actually came out, it was probably the hardest thing for me, but probably the easiest thing for everyone else. And they were just like, you know, they were happy for me. And, you know, I was kind of a little bit angry because I kind of felt like I pretty much robbed most of my life through not coming out. But I was, You know, I didn't want to come out until I actually knew what being gay was and that I could still be [00:10:30] me, but be gay and yeah, So what? Who I am type of thing. So what was the experience? Um, So what are some of the experience that you've had on K Road? Um Well, where do I start? Um, two hours later. Two hours later. Yeah. Um, I don't know. There's been some positive ones. There's been some really, really bad ones as well. but I don't know. I find [00:11:00] that humour gets me through most of the bad stages. Um, I know I I've been beaten up a couple of times. Not through one time was the excuse of me being gay, but, you know, I know his face was a bit mangled as well. Not your reason. Yeah, Yeah, I kind of blacked out. Oops. But yeah, um, I've gotten over the stage. If someone calls me a faggot now, I don't really care. Whereas before it was like it was really? You know, [00:11:30] if someone calls you a faggot, you're just like, Yes, I am. I'm just like and yeah, but, um, yeah, I didn't like the label for a little while, but now I've kind of, like, begun to I don't know, accept it a little bit and just, like, you know, own it. So, um, how did you feel when you came out to your bunch of friends? Um, I felt like a big giant weight was lifted off my shoulders, and I think they kind of felt the same way. Um, and slightly [00:12:00] drunk and slightly drunk and yeah, yeah, it was all right. It was actually a really positive experience. I heard some pretty, like very bad stories from other people's coming out experiences. And I was like, I'm kind of glad that I had, like, that group of those group of friends there, and I maybe I subconsciously chose them because I knew that. You know, maybe if I did come out, they would be a little bit more, you know, positive towards it. Despite the fact that I bought [00:12:30] all the booze that night. So and there was still a lot of alcohol left, so yeah, so they had to be nice, and half of them were living with me as well. So yeah. So, um, you've had, uh So you've been in relationships before? Um, I think I'm in a relationship every week. Uh, my Facebook is pretty much a, um I don't know. I think you'd compare it to the bachelor. Really? [00:13:00] Um, I've got a boyfriend now. He's he's a nice guy. Um, he's not in Auckland, which is probably a good thing, because I don't really. Most of my, um, partners anyway are not from Auckland, because I just don't get along with Auckland. Why is that? I have no idea I'm just don't I don't know. Um a lot of a lot of Aukland and gay guys sort of have, like, this perception and like, this whole like [00:13:30] image and trying to be perfect. And I'm kind of exactly the opposite. I don't want to be perfect. I just want to just be me and just do whatever the hell I feel like within, you know, bounds. You know, within morals and stuff like that Law go around robbing houses or anything like that. You know, Laura is there for a reason. So, um so what is your definition of virginity? [00:14:00] Virginity? Explain. Some people have, um, their own definition of virginity. Like some people think it's a mind thing. Some people think it's a physical thing. Some people think it's a religious thing or a spiritual thing. Some people think it's just a sexual thing is in virginity. Um, I don't know it. It depends, I suppose how you lose it. Um, [00:14:30] I think probably, you know, when you when you lose your virginity and you know, if you end up with the first love or something like that because there's two different virginity as your physical one, which has no real relevance. Then there's your sort of, like, I don't know, your first love. Like I had my first love when I was about 16, and he was in the closet as well, and he was bisexual, and he I know. [00:15:00] So, like my first, Like, in that sense, But I lost my virginity a long time before that. So, um, when you were, um So you've received a lot of abuse on Cairo before, right? Um, not a lot of abuse. Um, I know I probably received more abuse from gay people than I do from, you know, straight people. But I kind of just throw it back at people and just I don't know, I've used them back. What [00:15:30] sort of abuse have you received? Um uh, I remember one time, um I was in a certain bar, and I think it was a Monday night after our, um we had stuff, drinks, and, um, a couple of guys came in and started, like, yelling abuse at about everyone and things like that, and I kind of like, took it into my hands to get them to leave. And, um, I got dragged across the bus and I had my face stomped on and, yeah, I don't remember much [00:16:00] of that, but it healed up within a couple of days, so except I had a little bit of a Terminator eye until new year. So I got the nickname Terminator for about a few weeks, so no one missed with you after that. Um, no one actually does mess with me. Anyway, I've I've kind of, like, really straight up sort of how I been brought up and my family is really, you know, a spade a spade type of thing. So it's kind of like if someone, if someone has a problem with me, I sort it out straight [00:16:30] away. I don't, you know, talk about them behind their back. Unless I'm going to talk about to their face as well. Um, and I just, you know, live by those sorts of morals, you know? Yeah. So most of my friends are pretty much similar personalities. Some of them talk about each other, and it's, you know, we all, you know, go through stages where we we hate this person or that person, but yeah, you kind of get over that very easily. Just move on. OK, so, um, thank you for the interview. [00:17:00] Uh, you're welcome. Thank you.

IRN: 498
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_stephen_b.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003949
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089243
TITLE: Stephen (b) - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; GayBiNZ; Karangahape Road; Q12 (series); bisexual; coming out; family; friends; gay; homophobia; parents; religion; school; social media; youth
DATE: 23 March 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Stephen talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Good morning. How are you today? I'm good. Thank you. OK. Where are you from? Auckland City. Are you born in Auckland City? Yes, I was. I grew up here. Oh, good. Um, can you tell us about yourself? Um, well, I'm a 25 year old, um, happily outed gay person. Um, I've been that way for about the past seven years. Uh, I work in child care. I look after Children, um, for my mom and dad's business, and I try to get a bit involved in the gay community if I can. So, [00:00:30] um, you're 25. What culture do you identify with? Uh, Do you mean as in religion or just cultural ethnic ethnicity? I am European or New Zealand born European. How about religion? I'd like to say agnostic. What question? Mark, Um, agnostic means that I believe there's something out there, but I'm not sure what it is. And [00:01:00] I don't really relate myself to any religion as such. So it's very common term agnostic or I've been living on the rock kind of thing. Yeah, Typically, people go for atheist, which means they believe nothing, but I kind of don't believe that's the way, but I I again, as I said, I don't really believe most common religions. OK, so, um, you're a gay male, and you present yourself as that way. I present myself as a person, and the fact that I'm a gay male just comes into my life. [00:01:30] Ok, um so when did you first realise I was about 16? When I sort of started having feelings for guys and I went through a very confused patch and came out as by about 17. And then it took me till I had actually left high school to realise that I was gay and probably more accept the fact that I was So, um, when you how did you felt that that way. Um, how did you feel when you realised? Uh, very scared. It was sort of a really scary process because [00:02:00] it was there was a lot to do from then, sort of coming out to my friends and family and pretty much a massive overhaul of my life. Massive changes. And so it was quite a big, daunting experience, but I did have quite a few really supportive friends, so it helped quite a lot. So, um, did you feel that you had to keep a secret for a bit? Definitely. I keep keep it from my parents. For once, I had realised it kicked for for about six months. Um and then once that was over, I sort of was able to [00:02:30] then slowly approach other people in my life. So, um, how did you come out of the closet? Oh, are you out? I am definitely out to my parents or to friends or to everybody. Let's start with parents first, Uh, I sat down with my mom, and I told her that I needed to talk to her, and I told her that I was gay and she burst into tears. Uh, my parents are both extremely religious, and to them, it's it's quite a big thing. And so [00:03:00] it did take them a long time to come to terms with the fact that I was going against their religion and that in their eyes, they had sort of they were losing me in a way, and it took them Sorry. And it took them a long time to actually come around and realise that I hadn't actually changed that much at all. So, um How do they feel about it now? Um, they're a lot more accepting. Um, whenever I have a partner, they're very welcoming to the partner and get them to join in in family activities. [00:03:30] Um, my mom will listen to things that I talk about, but she generally won't provoke conversation, so she's a bit very selective in some way. Yeah, she she realises when I need to talk to her and when I need someone to be a sounding board. But she will also not offer to be the sounding board if if it's gonna result in a conversation around the topic. So, um so what do they How do they feel when you bring, like, a boyfriend [00:04:00] around or a partner or something? They generally know that if I'm going to bring one round to the family to meet the family, that they're a serious relationship, and they'll generally have heard a bit about them before, and it would probably be about the sort of month to two months when they actually get to meet them. So they know they're not just someone that I've randomly met, and that actually means something to me. Not like someone like you go to family and say, Oh, I like you. I like you too. Would you like to meet my parents? Yes. [00:04:30] Some people who actually do that I can believe you. I think I know a few. Hey, we don't judge in the centre. Um So how about your friends? Uh, it was a really good indication of who my true friends were, Uh, coming out I. I lost a lot of friends then. I also made a lot of friends and the friends that stuck with me through the whole process have been the ones that I'm still friends with. Now I'm really strong friends with, and I know I could call up at any point in time, and they'd be there. Listen to me. So they've [00:05:00] they've been the ones that sort of weeded out the people I didn't need in my life. So, um, did your old friends either came back realise like, wait a minute, I'm being sort of thing or, um, not fully. Some of them sort of. We just lost a bit of contact, but every time we see each other, we still have a really good catch up, and it's there's sort of no nastiness about it. It's just that our lives have taken different paths and we've grown apart, so I don't really see it as a negative thing. But [00:05:30] it's just the way that life goes. And you always lose friends in different, different ways. So with your new friends, are they like Oh, you're gay? I want to be friends with you kind of thing or is this a different random situation? Um, I have had quite a few friends who have sort of wanted a gay friend, although they've generally been quite short lived as friendships. Um, because they're not really based on anything substantial. The some of the the friends who sort of take me as who I am are the ones that generally are [00:06:00] the ones that stick around, and I probably find nowadays I have more friends in the gay community, um, and a lot closer friends because they're general, they are more accepting than most people. So in the gay community, is it like a Do you believe it's a short community, a short community, as in like there's a short community of gay people, blah blah, blah like a small community? Uh, no It's huge. It's, um you know, there's thousands and thousands of people who identify themselves [00:06:30] as gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender and I you know, I get to know a lot of them, Um, especially through the gay A NZ sites and I You know, I give everyone a chance and see how we get along. That's sort of how I take take my friendships. So when it comes to meeting new people, how do you meet new people? Um, I generally don't go searching for new people. I search [00:07:00] Facebook stalking. No, I don't search people. They search me. No. How do we become friends, Ben? Um, no. I mean, I just just you know, you you're at a party with some friends and you meet some other friends of friends, and suddenly they become your friends, and suddenly you've got this massive group going on, and you're like, Wow, how does this happen Kind of thing. Yeah, I think searching friends is kind of a a bit of a lost cause because you're trying to fulfil a void in your life if you're searching [00:07:30] for them. Um, but people come into your life and all the time, So it's just taking advantage of them and making sure you cherish their friendships. So it sounds like a really complicated friend circle. In a way, um, it can be, I guess I've you know, I've got a lot of different groups of friends, and a lot of them don't really know each other. So it's Yeah, there's it's just of keeping in touch with different, different groups. So, um, [00:08:00] how do you so generally, do you meet people online or just for friends kind of thing? Um, I'm not against many people online. I think it, you know, you can chat to someone and have common interests. Eventually, you'll catch up or see each other at a party somewhere. If you've got mutual friends and that that, then it becomes a proper friendship and a proper relationship. Um, rather than just having your little cyber back and forth chat, which generally annoys me like [00:08:30] cyber relationships. Yeah, there's they're very fake. Um, as you can kind of be who you want on the Net rather than face to face is a lot truer. So do you believe that, um, cyber relationships aren't proper relationships in some sort? I think some people may get the fulfilment out of them they need, but I don't see myself getting that, so I don't really believe in them. So when you first realised [00:09:00] or first came out, did you have any support? Support? Yeah, Um, I had originally come out to a a really close group of friends at school, and they were really supportive for me. And so they were kind of my sounding board, and I then went and sort of started approaching some of my friends out of school. Um, and most of them, we were really good friends, and so they were really good. And then from then it was sort of people in the workplace who I really got along with and and [00:09:30] from there, it sort of just grew my support group. And as they grew, the better I felt. So, um, you work with Children now? Yes. I work with Children. So how did you become working with Children? Kind of thing. How did they become working with Children? That that question makes no sense. Um, how did you get your job? Um, my parents own a large after school care company, and they've got franchised, um, programmes And so I'm managing one of Mom's franchise programmes. OK, so it [00:10:00] was this for family, mainly. Yeah. Mum had a need of a manager, and I had previously worked in one of the programmes quite a few years ago. And so it sort of was quite a good time that I came and did it for her and sort of takes a lot of weight off her having to hire a manager. So, um, being so do you interact with the kids a lot? Yeah. So do you. Have you ever gotten any problems with the parents? Um, not definitely [00:10:30] not in terms of my sexuality. I'm not running down K road waving a rainbow flag kind of person. I'm gay. Exactly, but, um, I'm not going to hide it. Um, a couple of the kids sort of have asked if I'm gay, but that's generally as a question. They ask any guy, Um and I just I don't say no, but I sort of laugh and go. Oh, stop being silly kind of thing. So I'm never denying who I am, but I, I don't see it appropriate to be telling them about my personal life. [00:11:00] And so I sort of I sort of laugh it off, and they can take from that what they want. Parents wise, I I've never had an issue with parents regarding it. That's good. So, um, you've been in relationships before, right? Yes. Are you currently in one? Ah, no. There's not a dating service, by the way. If you want my phone number, it's This is where you can find them. No. So, what have your relationships been like? [00:11:30] I've only really had three relationships, and they've all been quite long term. Um, I don't tend to enter a relationship unless I can see it going somewhere in the future. And so I guess that means it means that I don't get into relationship as as often, but when I do, they generally are quite a really good quality relationships. And I get out of them What I what I want. So, um, has your parents being super religious or your coming out experience have [00:12:00] affected any of your relationships? Um, my first relationship was extremely hard. Um, I was just 19 when we started dating, and he was very headstrong, and my parents didn't really get along with him very well, and he was kind of taking the approach of, Well, I'm going to throw it in your face, and you can deal with it if you want to or not. And so it sort of left a a bit of a head butting thing going on, which just wasn't that pleasant. Sounds like half K road [00:12:30] of it. Yeah, pretty much. Oh. So, um, so what is your definition in virginity and virginity? Yes, Uh, I guess I think virginity is sort of, uh are, like, unexperienced in certain things. So you can be a virgin for driving. You may have never driven before. Um, you know, obviously the main one you think of is a sexual virgin. So you [00:13:00] may be a virgin, and you've never had into course before. Um, that can be with a guy or a girl, whatever you choose, but yeah, that's sort of how I see it so generally, like the something that you haven't done before. And you're done for the first time kind of thing. Yeah, it's sort of a term that we associate with it like a virgin. Um, it's the first time actually sang the Madonna song in any of my interviews. It was going to happen. Um, have you experienced any abuse [00:13:30] or abusive behaviour? Yeah. Sometimes when I when I've been downtown, clubbing with my friends, Some guys occasionally shout out, you know, or whatever. Um, but I don't really think much of it because they shout abuse at nearly anybody, So they're just going to pick on something they can think about you. And if that makes them feel better than good on them, Do you think they actually aiming at you or do they scream out your homo to everybody? Um, they'd probably be aiming it at me. [00:14:00] Um, but I think it says more about them than it does me. So, um, do you think he there's a lot of, um, Do you think that K Road is like gay Central in a way kind of thing. It definitely is in Auckland. Um, I think we have quite a good community up here, and so people realise that if they're going to come up to K Road, they are going to be surrounded by quite a few gay people. So they kind of I think there are a lot. It's a lot more accepting up [00:14:30] here. Even if they don't like gay people, they generally try to leave us alone a lot more. So, you know, I do think that could also be a dangerous area as well. Definitely a dangerous area. There's a lot of back streets, um, that are really dark and quite dodgy people lurking around them. And so I tend to stay on the main road. I wouldn't really go into any of the back streets by myself. OK, so, um, you've worked on the very popular Facebook page of gay Buy NZ. [00:15:00] Yes, I'm an admin for it. So what's your experience with that? Um, I. I didn't really get it. At first, I sort of went on, and I was like, Oh, all these gay people are just writing random posts. This is really lame. But then I talked to Nick, and he sort of explained what it was about and how it was a really good supportive site and how people could go on and just express their opinions without being judged too much. And when he sort of talked to me about that, I actually started to change my opinion of it. And then he he He [00:15:30] made me an admin of it. Um and from then I've got quite heavily involved in it, and we're doing sort of a lot of the projects and we've got a website now. And so it's helping out with the wording on the website and some of the promotions we're wanting to do and things like that, and it's it's really exciting how it's taking off. So, um, with your experience on that, do you see a lot of abuse that's going that's happening between different gay people to gay people kind of thing? Or queers to queers, Rainbow [00:16:00] to rainbow kind of thing. Any group you get together, you're gonna have some people conflicting and that's just how it is. Gay people tend to voice their opinions a lot more and think they can really get away with it. Uh, part of the admin job is to sort of moderate the site and make sure that people aren't being nasty and aren't being vindictive. And if they are, we get on to it pretty quickly, um, and try to deal with it. And if if they're going to continue that behaviour, then they're not really welcome in our community. So, [00:16:30] um, do you have any other comments that you would like to make? Um, no. No. First time I've done a little interview like this, so it's quite exciting. Quite exciting. Quite quiet and exciting and very exciting. Yeah, quite nice. Well, thank you for the interview. That's all right. Thank you for having me along. Not a problem. Thanks.

IRN: 497
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_shane.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003948
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089242
TITLE: Shane - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Karangahape Road; Northland; Q12 (series); Rainbow Youth; Wellsford; abuse; bisexual; coming out; domestic violence; friends; gay; homophobia; makeup; mental health; photography; relationships; runaway; school; sexual abuse; sexuality; suicide; youth
DATE: 22 March 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Shane talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? Not too bad yourself. Fantastic. Um, What is your name? George. George. No, it's Shane. So, um Shane George monkey thing. Um, can you tell? So tell us about yourself. Um, I'm about 18, I think. Yeah. 18. I had to think about that. Um, I've finished hairdressing. Course. I've studied makeup artist stream, then studied photography afterwards. [00:00:30] Love my life. Love my partner. I love all my friends. Yeah, that's about it. Well, your interests makeup. Definitely. Um, hairdressing photography. As I just said before, guys hang out with my mates sleeping with my partner one of the best nights of my life. Um, but yeah, like guys and all that shit and all that jazz. OK, so you're 18 or 19. I wish I was older, but yeah, Why is that? Because I actually look older. [00:01:00] Are you looking forward to turning 19? Not really. It's kind of a boring age. Thought 20 was a boring age or 40 was a boring age. Fuck. If I was 40 I'd shit myself. Are you literally or jokingly? Jokingly. Thank you. Um, So what gender identity do you go with? What do you want me to be no black side chick. Doesn't matter anyway. Um what culture [00:01:30] White and what sexuality Gay. Ok, when did you realise? Um, I think I realised when I was about seven, but I wasn't too sure at the time, because, like back then, I wasn't really emotionally like thinking properly, so it was a bit like, hidden behind me, but I fully realised when I was about 13 and only had the guts to really come out when I was about 15. So when you realised, how did you felt? Um, I felt like I had to hide it because I lived in a small town, [00:02:00] so everybody knew everyone, and I didn't really want it getting around. So where were you originally from? Um, I was originally born in South Auckland, moved to the North Shore. Then I moved up north to Wellford and lived there for 16 years from 10 to 16. Surprisingly, you're still alive from living there. Oh, fuck. Tell me about it. That shit. Love you. Really? Well, so when you realise it was a very confusing time, [00:02:30] It was I had to deal with it, Um, because I was by trying to hide that I actually was gay. So I came out as by to see what people were like. Like how they reacted and, Well, um, everyone didn't mind until I decided I would actually come out once I actually came out. Um, I lost half my friends, um, my technical girlfriend at the time, through the biggest, and made the whole school pretty much hate me [00:03:00] apart from a few selected people. So, um, how so When you say a big Tanti Was she, like, screaming kind of jealous or some sort? She was screaming bloody blue murder because I broke up with her because I wanted to date a guy. So you felt confused when you first came out right when you first realised when I first realised Yes. Yeah. So, um, what is your coming out story? Um to what perspective? [00:03:30] To my mates or my family? Who did you come out first to, um, one of my mates. What was that like? Um, she's technically said she already knew. Which is kind of obvious if I think about it now. Well, come on. I used to play with my mother's dresses and makeup when I was seven, but now, she pretty much knew. Then I told a few of my other mates and well, a few of them were, like, iffy. And I lost all my guy mates because I thought I was going to hit on them and want to sleep with them. But not none of them were attractive. [00:04:00] That's what happens when you live in Westford. Um, no. Um, and this is why I'm not going to Northland later this year, and I don't blame you. Oh, I've got to visit Mom somehow. Um, so when you came out wait. You used to dress into's clothes when you're seven, right? Yeah. I just used to do it because, like, it was a lot of fun and, well, pretend to be [00:04:30] a beauty queen. I used to be Cinderella. No, I just did it as well. I was going to parties and stuff, and I never wanted to be the normal kid there. So you just wanted to be Cinderella at the ball? No, I just want to be centre of attention, as you do. Of course. So, um so who else did you come out to at that time? At that time? Um, I just a very select few mates, and they've supported me completely. But [00:05:00] one of them did let it, you know, went through the school and yeah, that's when I started going downhill for a bit down hall. In what way? Um, I actually became quite suicidal because I couldn't deal with it. And also later on that year, um, I was raped, so I did try to take my life, but it's all good. It's over now. I'm happy about myself now. That's good. Yeah. Um, So how did you tell your mother? Um, I actually ran away [00:05:30] from home. And then, um, when I was talking to her through MC because I didn't want to see her in person, I actually came out to her and when we were fighting, but she just replied, like, Yeah, I already knew that, Um, my dad, I technically haven't told him, but I think he knows if I rock up to his house in high heels tights, a long t-shirt, bright pink hair and full face makeup that you've done for years. Yeah, I love my makeup. And I like to look different every single day. [00:06:00] Come on. I like changing my hair. colour. What's a hairdresser for? For cutting here. Um, So what is the most extreme reaction have you gotten, um in what way? With what I look like or my sexuality. Let's start with sexuality First, um, sexuality the most I've ever gotten would be Are you discussing Fargo cock? And I'm like, OK, prove it, show it, flop it out. So they obviously don't have the bigger [00:06:30] balls. And I haven't really had any major bad experience about when For my sexuality. It's just mainly what I look like, Um, for what I look like, Um, because I love my makeup, and I love to look feminine. Um, I always get mistake for a check. And so people like talking about me, and then they go, this girl blah, blah, blah, blah. And I just like I'm a guy. And they're like, what? And I'm like, I'm a guy, and they're like, No, you're not. I was like, pull my pants. Yeah, that's how I checked. I was [00:07:00] so Yeah, because I love my makeup. I. I have to look feminine. Yeah, that's really the biggest thing I've gotten. Yeah, I remember earlier on today when we walked out of the bus station that, um that we walk past some school kids, they walk past you and that guy went I thought he will. Oh, no, that's someone else. Sorry. That was another day. Yeah, [00:07:30] Too many of those. Have you been drinking again? I've only had 12? Yeah. Yeah. Two. Because I finished a body out today, Of course. So I decided I'll have a drink. Yeah. Um, where was I? I lost myself up. Oh, yeah. Bust up, boy. Um, so you get those, um, a lot, don't you? Um, not very often, because they normally actually think I'm a chick, so normally they don't click, so no, I don't really get them. I just get a lot of stars. [00:08:00] My favourite saying is take a pack show last longer because I know you're going to Jack off on it later. They probably do. I wouldn't doubt it. So, um, what was the most amusing reactions you've gotten? Um, get a mistaken as a drag queen on a normal day on a normal day just because I used to draw my eyebrows on, But, um, no, apart from that most outrageous Mm. Nothing, [00:08:30] really. Just about people mistaking me for a check. So you go to course, right? Yes, I've studied for about this would be my third year. Now. So has your course school place thing. Um, were they good with you being out and about? Um, yeah, they're really accepting. Um, we've got a few train in at my academy. Um, we've got gay guys. We've got lesbian chicks, we've got straight guys, straight chicks. [00:09:00] So it's a big range of people, so, yeah, they're really accepting. They do try to mould you into a certain kind of person. Business wise, not sexuality and personality wise. But yeah, they've given up with me because they can see I'm my own person, and I have self confidence. So, um, so did you have any support from any organisations or your friends? Blah, blah, blah for your sexuality? Um, to start off with it was just one friend. Then [00:09:30] it became a few of my mates and then my mom once I told her and me and her stopped fighting all the time as Children do with their parents, as you would know. And so, yeah, after that, me and my mom have become, like, really close mates, and she's almost knocked someone out just because they said I'm a fucking fag. So yeah, my mom and me are quite close. Apart from that, I haven't really had any help from organisations. I've kind of brought myself up and taught myself to be proud of who I am. So how about, [00:10:00] um I went there about three times, all up? I think once I went because I was I think I was meeting up with my ex just because I hadn't seen them for a while. I thought I'd say hi. Another time was, um, they wanted to. This chick wanted to interview me for studying psychology, so I thought I'd went. Got $10 out of it, sweet ass. Um, and the other time I can't remember the other time. But I, I eat three times. Um but no, I [00:10:30] they're too childish for me. I find, um they just want to keep you together, and yeah, I can understand you want to be keep strong together and all that, but it's also you don't want to be just have that group. I find that you want to branch out a little bit, so yeah, That's what I think about that. But other than that, they're a great group. I do support them, but they're not for me. Do you feel that? Um, one of the groups are end up sleeping with each other? Um, I wouldn't really know. I didn't really go to the 18 plus [00:11:00] one, so I kind of stayed away from that personally. So you're currently in the relationship at the moment, right? Um, yes, I am for about a year and three months now. So how does that work out? I wouldn't complain. So how did you two meet? Wow. Long story is everyone asked how we meet. Then I tell them when they don't want to know. So do you really want to know? OK, well, me, him and his ex, I spoke to his ex on Bi. Well, that's ages ago. Welcome to when [00:11:30] the dinosaurs was roaming the earth pretty much. And I spoke to his ex on Bi and got his number, and so started talking to him and he invited me to go to a party with a mate and I was gonna go, but they didn't pick me up because for some reason, they got lost in town or something. And so I asked if I could stay there for a weekend once. And so me, my partner now and his ex partner, current partner at the time I stayed there and we end up having a threesome. [00:12:00] Mhm. And yeah, my partner and me kept meeting up behind his ex's bag for about a year until his ex broke up with him. And then he asked me out. So that's how me and him met. What? A, um, fascinating beginning of a relationship. Yeah. I didn't even know the deck size in the end. So, um well, all [00:12:30] your camp has that affected your relationship. Um, it has affected some relationships I've had in the past, but my current partner at the time, it hasn't affected me or him. Um, he's openly accepting. He doesn't care if I wear makeup. If I don't wear makeup. Um, two sets of eyelashes for long lips, so he doesn't care. He probably encourages it a little bit. Sometimes I'll do it on him because, well, I am studying makeup and well, he does [00:13:00] like to wear a bit of makeup every now and then, so yeah, he does encourage a little bit. So how do you meet other people? Um, I normally meet other people through mates. Um, or through my course, Um, I started going to my course as it was about two years ago, because one of my mates went there, and I got to know everyone that was already there. And so once I started, I already knew everyone, and I met a whole bunch of other people as well. And what is your definition? Virginity? Um [00:13:30] Hm. My definition. Emotionally, I guess. I don't see the difference from cock virginity, bum virginity, mouth virginity. I don't know. I just find it's emotional, um, for me personally, because I've been raped, so I don't classify that as taking my virginity. Um, I find it where when I embrace having sex with the person I love and that technically, is breaking my virginity. [00:14:00] Have you ever reclaimed your What do you mean by that saying that, um, you went you had no sex for a while and say I'm virgin again or something like that. Um, I did go and say, um, have no sex because, Well, it hurt like a lot emotionally. So I couldn't have it for a while, but I didn't say I was a virgin. OK, so you've received abuse of behaviour or abuse in [00:14:30] the past. Yes, I have. Could you specify? Um, I used to date a guy that he was a lovely guy until he started drinking. And my definition He used to leave heart shaped bruises on me where people couldn't see and I learned how to cover them up. Really well. So and I used to be able to lie for him apart from that just being raped a total of three times, to be honest. But apart from that, that's really the only physical abuse [00:15:00] I've had. How about mental? Mental? There's a shit load, whether it's who I've dated. Sometimes even some things people say in the in the street. Yeah, it hurts, but I've just learned to pick myself up and be proud of who I am. So, um, do you feel in a way that K Road is slightly dangerous? Oh, fuck, yes. That's definitely dangerous. There's no offence. I've got a few mates that do it, but there's hookers. They [00:15:30] can be a nasty piece of work. Oh, no, I've got a mate's one. But there's also, like, sometimes syringes there. There's straight guys that go past the clubs and cause shit in the gay clubs. Um, yeah, it can be quite abusive on the street, but normally if you stick with your group of mates, they normally leave you alone. So, um, since K Road is so dangerous, do you think that, um, that's where Gay Central is as well? Um, yes and no, um, during [00:16:00] the night. Yes, I will agree just on K road. Shit. Loads of gay guys go there, even lesbian chicks. Um, because I just want to congregate with each other and have a good time. But the straight people normally are against it, and they normally want to create a riot. But other than that during the day, I don't think it's just K road. It's just pretty much anywhere you go and anywhere that has a designer store, Any hairdresser. Well, any SES I should say [00:16:30] or cotton on. Oh, yeah. Yeah. OK, so thank you for the interview. Do you have any comments? Um, just to who is going to listen to this? No matter what people say or do to you just believe in yourself. And if you believe in yourself, you can go far. Thank you for the interview. All good. Thank you. George Shane. Person thing. Bye.

IRN: 496
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_john.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003947
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089241
TITLE: John - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Karangahape Road; Q12 (series); coming out; employment; family; gay; growing up; parents; relationships; sex; social media; violence; youth
DATE: 22 March 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast John talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? Awesome. What is your name? Bob. John. Are you sure now? Are you sure it's Bob? John? Yeah. Both. You are a very confusing person indeed. Um, OK, can you tell us a little bit about yourself currently living out west, but moving back to the shore, being a shore whore, as usual. But anyway, that's besides the point. That's what I gonna say. Um, what are your [00:00:30] interests? Interests, man? Hanging out with my partner, Shane. He's awesome. And seeing family and friends. So, um, how old are you? 24. 24. What is your gender identity? Um Yep. Mao, what is your culture? [00:01:00] What? Um what was your sexuality? Ok, OK, so when did you realise? Hm? Maybe when I was 19. 20? No, be 2021 to be exact. So what happened? How did you realise? [00:01:30] Um, I realised when I started letting guys when I was with my past ex-girlfriend and starting up guys between, uh, behind her back. And then she kind of found out and then just started it going from there. How did you feel when you realised normal? Normal, Normal. Normal. Did you ever had to feel like you wanted to keep a secret in some [00:02:00] sort of way. Nope. You're just, like, really out there. Pretty much. Yeah. So, um, when you told your girlfriend, um, that you were gay, how did she feel? Um, generally here, To be honest, she was one of those pet pictures who eat bakery and, you know, pretty much you walk into the bakery and there's nothing there. [00:02:30] So what was her reaction? No. Didn't really care. So, um, so when you told her, she was like, Oh, OK. I like cake. Pretty much long story short. Really? Yeah. So how about, um, telling your parents? To be honest, I don't think they actually know [00:03:00] really positive. Yep. How about, um are you Do you have any siblings? I got one brother and lots of cousins that I have no idea about. So, um, do they know? My cousins know, and my brother knows why did you tell them and not your parents? Um, I think they just found out through Facebook and and then S logging guys rather than [00:03:30] they just through Facebook. And they go, Oh, we're gonna meet him. And what's he like? And hold 21 questions, You know, what's his name? How old is he? He's treating you right, blah, blah, blah. Yep, Fucking last story, But yeah, basically 21 Questions. What was the main question that they kept on asking? When are we meeting him? When do we get to see him? Yeah, pretty much. Did they ever ask something like or say something like, Oh, we're going. We're [00:04:00] worried about that. You're going cats age or something like that? No. No. So, um, have you ever gone through, like so you've always been in a relationship in some sort of way. So you've never had to do the whole single life kind of thing. Go out club and go. Oh, yeah, kind of thing. Not really, No, that was just was just kind of overrated for me. Pretty much. I go when I go Otherwise, yeah. Cheap drink to work [00:04:30] is pretty much the way to go. He's such a baby at clubs. Um So how did your friends react from when you told them if you told your friends, um, they ever at work? Um, basically just knew when I first started there. Then I got used to it. and I was like, Oh, you know, whatever. And they just accepted me for who I am. And [00:05:00] yeah, that's pretty much how it goes. So they didn't have any problems? No problems at all? No. Apart from giving a shit, but that's just how life goes. So when it comes to, um, customers, have they ever given you shit about it? Um, sometimes I have. Yeah, but yes, pretty much Take it on board and, you know, you get shit, they give you shit, whatever, you take it back and you know, it becomes a shit fest. [00:05:30] Yeah, Long story short, but, you know, they give you a shit, you give them shit. This is how life goes, you know? So what's the worst situation you've been? Be because, um, because of your sexuality. Um, to be honest, I don't actually remember. Um, yeah. No, I think most of them just say things at abortion when they're drunk, and it's just yeah, if they they don't remember and just take it [00:06:00] on board and leave it there. So, um, so what's it like working in the bar? Um, yeah, that's alright. Um, I didn't even wait hours, though. Fuck my life. Um, but yeah, that's all right. As I said, no cheap drinks is the way to go. So working in a tavern, it's like a tavern, right? So working in the tavern, do you feel it's a bit unusual for a gay guy [00:06:30] working in a tavern? That's like, your work. Straight pub? Yeah. Not really. I was kind of thinking they'll get pretty much like taking the Mickey out of me and everything, but, uh, this is the way it goes, you know, every place you work at, and especially in a pot like that, You know, they give you shit, you can take it on board and then just give them shit back when you can. So yeah, that's how it goes. [00:07:00] So, um, how did you feel about your revised reaction or all No, really bother me. And then I just start getting to know them and how they acted and like, giving me shit. I just give them shit. And then just how is that? So, um, are you have you always lived and born in Auckland or you're from somewhere else? No. Raised and born in Auckland, you poor thing. Um [00:07:30] so did you ever have any support for your sexuality? Um, well, that can be technical. Yes and no. Um, Ys. I think it was because, um, meeting someone else when I was dating someone else. Um, more than once. I lost Cat Henry Times, to be honest, and it's happened on numerous occasions [00:08:00] at, like, 23 in the morning. Um, but yes. Just get this person that would be at, like, three. In the morning. Go down to beach or wherever, and yeah, it kind of just started from there. So he slept around a lot. I wouldn't say a lot. Just more than one person. Yes. Just look quite a lot now. Well, you've had sex a lot then. Um [00:08:30] well, I won't call it that, but it just kind of more a thing. The person that I kind of felt more towards. So, um, going back to, um What is the No, from the Did you get any support? What is the no part? Um, yes. Um, yeah, nothing I can't. But at the time here is a real asshole. Still is. I don't know why not [00:09:00] Going to know. Not going there? Um, yeah. It was just wasn't the best of relationships. No long story short, um, took him to a party, and I suppose, and bleed took him there late because I finished work late. It wasn't my fault. And then just out of the blue, just started giving me a black eye and I felt like and a bruise on the side of my face. Yeah. Awesome. [00:09:30] A bit painful. Not painful. Not hurt because I kind of expected it. But he felt really sorry. And just It was Yeah, well was pointed, but then I got really upset when he did the whole fucking break up text. I was at work. Some mythic long story short is over. Yeah, there's not the coolest thing to do when you break [00:10:00] up. It's kind of cow, and it's just Yeah, no, it's not cool. So you're currently obviously in the relationship, right? Yeah. What is that, like? Fucking fantastic. Are you meaning that with a pun or without the pun could be taken both ways. But like I said, without the fun or worth the pun, I'd say without just to kind of keep me out of the [00:10:30] dog box. Um, how is you? Um so you Like you said before there was There's a lot of shit going around from they give you shit, You give them shit at work. And your customers, um how has that affected your relationship? Um, I think I took them my work. I took them a while, but now they're used to it. And they see him [00:11:00] more than once down the pub, like every week. I'd say almost every week. Um, then they get used to him, and they talked to him a lot, and they have gotten to like him. And I think he's a good person, and we got to know him, and they talk to him a lot. And, yeah. Does it smell shitty? No, I was just making sure. Um, So how do you meet other people in the general way? [00:11:30] Oh, well, it's three of my current partner, but, um, the reason how me and him came out was through a three with my other half. I'm not gonna mention his name or who he is. I'm gonna say my other half at the time, um, had a threesome, and then we kind of started getting close and then started out with him. behind my [00:12:00] car back at the time and he didn't know he didn't know was going on. And then when? That may then about, oh, one week day, one day later. Um, I. I think I did ask him out at the time. I think, um, I was laying on top of him and [00:12:30] just blatantly said, What would you say if I asked you out? And we just kinda started from there? Mhm. A good general way to start a relationship. I'd say So, yeah. By laying on someone and laying on top of them and just looking into their eyes and just saying, you know, pretty much long story short. Can I ask you out? That's a good way to go. So, [00:13:00] um, what is your definition of virginity? Um, you don't know? No. Um, so have you, um, experienced or received any abuse or abusive behaviour because of your sexuality or gender identity or your culture? No, not at all. So you're a happy chappy, [00:13:30] OK? With a lot of shit that goes around. So, um, are there any other comments you would like to see? No, that's all I've got in my head at this present moment. OK, Thank you for the interview. You're most welcome. Thank you.

IRN: 495
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089240
TITLE: Trevor Morley - Wellington Vice Squad
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Trevor Morley
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Carmen Rupe; Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Carol de Winter; Club Exotique; Margaret Sparrow; Patricia Bartlett; The Balcony / Le Balcon; The Purple Onion; Trevor Morley; Wellington; abortion; beats; courts; crime; cruising; gambling; history; homosexual law reform; law; police; pornography; red zone (Canterbury); sex; sex work; straight; transgender
DATE: 3 April 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Trevor Morley talks about working on the Vice Squad in Wellington in the 1970s; including cases involving Carmen Rupe, the movie Deep Throat and other indecent performances.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, I joined the police in January 1961 as a cadet. Graduated from the police college at Trentham in August 1962 and spent the rest of my career in the police in the Wellington area and mainly as a qualified detective in the Wellington CIB. Now, in the CIB, the staff are separated off into various squads the drug squad and, uh, the car squad and the burglary squad, and so on and so forth. And there was [00:00:30] a vice squad, uh, albeit there was only two of us on the squad a detective sergeant and myself as his detective. And, um, I didn't ask to be put on it. Uh, you don't ask to get put on any particular squad from time to time, the bosses get together and decide that, Uh, well, Trevor's been this long on squad, so it's time we gave him a bit of experience in some other area of policing, and it just happened that at some stage in my career, they decided that I would stop doing what I was doing, [00:01:00] which I think was the car squad, and that they would put me on the vice squad and I had no problem with that. It was just another squad that you did some work on. What did the vice squad police? Well, um, it's interesting, because in particularly in America, it's often called the Morals squad. Uh, which is a very actually descriptive term because vice is is a problem of, well, not a problem. Um, though some governments see it as a problem, and some societies see it as a problem, [00:01:30] But, uh, vice is a matter of morality. What can be a A crime? Uh, in some countries of the world, uh, may not be a crime in others, and in fact, we've had that phenomenon here in New Zealand just in my very short lifetime. Uh, because there are now no vice squads in any police, uh, district anywhere in New Zealand, simply because our laws relating to morality, in other words, relating to vice have completely changed. But going [00:02:00] back to the sixties and seventies and into the eighties, we did have a number of laws which endeavoured to control the morality of the nation. Uh, we had laws, and we may still have laws making bookmaking illegal, illegal gambling on race horses because the government wanted everyone to gamble through the TAB and thereby get the tax and so on and so forth. And there's often a monetary background to these laws. Um, prostitution whilst prostitution [00:02:30] itself per se was not illegal. Uh, it was illegal for someone to importune someone on a public street. And it was also an offence to live off the earnings of prostitution. It was also an offence to keep a brothel and various other offences relating to brothel keeping and sexual crimes. That though I'm not talking about rape or any other kind of violent sexual offending that was handled by another squad in the CIB. [00:03:00] Uh, pornography, Uh, the vice squad would enforce the laws relating to pornography. And, uh, there was an indecent Publications act. There was an indecent publications tribunal, and certainly in my day, that related mainly to printed material. Um or, uh, uh, video tapes. We didn't have DVD S in those days. Uh, and in fact, when I first went on to the voice, the VCR and the video [00:03:30] cassette had not not quite been invented yet, so I can remember we season and had a lot to do with little small rolls of silent eight millimetre, uh, coloured film. Um, so there was indecent publications, um, prostitution and similar crimes relating to that and illegal gambling. They were most probably the three areas of interest to the vice squad and bearing in mind. And and you know of the reasons why we're talking today is because [00:04:00] sexual acts between consenting males was still a crime. We hadn't had that liberal, uh uh, expansion of the law to make that illegal. So we would look at that that aspect of the law as well in terms of our investigations. So when you're saying sex between males, are you talking? Are you referring to things like, um, patrolling the beats or No, no. What I what I'm talking about is that in those days [00:04:30] in the late 19 sixties and into the seventies, when I was on the voice squad, it was an offence for a male of irrespective of age, to quote indecently assault another male, even though it may have been done consensually. Now, we didn't necessarily, um, pay a great deal of attention to that kind of law, except that in those days there were quite a few, Um what were incorrectly [00:05:00] called transvestites but which were adult males who would dress in female clothing. And, again, a complication. In those days, a male could not in law be a prostitute. OK, so you would have the phenomena of males dressed as females walking the streets of Wellington Vivian Street, for example. But they weren't committing an offence because they weren't a prostitute. [00:05:30] Had they been a female in female clothing or even a female in male clothing, walking the streets and touting for business, they would be committing an offence. But males weren't but nevertheless, uh, a number of quote straight, unquote. Straight males would see these individuals and assume that they were a female, and so they would enter in some conversation and go around the corner or into someone's house or whatever. Now we became [00:06:00] involved in investigating those activities. Firstly, because there was a crime being committed, the crime of one male indecently assaulting another male, albeit there was consent involved. But that was consent obtained to some degree by fraud because the a guileless member of the public who thought he was engaging in some sexual relationship with a female was an actual fact engaging in a sexual relationship with a male. [00:06:30] So there was that, shall we say, fraudulent aspect involved there, Which is why we tended to wouldn't exactly say concentrate. But if we came across that kind of, uh, offence happening where it would be drawn to our attention, then we would investigate it. So we had this element of fraud involved in a importuning of members of the public by men dressed as women who were not prostitutes because of the law but were committing a criminal offence because they were a male and decently assaulting another [00:07:00] male. So did you find that people would come to you and complain that this had happened to them? Or is it just when you discovered it by accident or sometimes we would discover it by accident. And sometimes we would get complaints. We would sometimes get complaints from members of the public who perhaps had, uh, shops or retail businesses. The kinds of things that we're still finding now are happening in New Zealand because the prostitution laws have changed. It's now left over to local authorities. And, you know, we've got the phenomena down in Christchurch where [00:07:30] where the prostitutes used to congregate in certain streets in the CBD. No longer can because they're red zone. So they're going out to the suburbs, and they're upsetting the residents in the suburbs. So that kind of, um, antagonism towards the sex industry, um, existed during my time, but for different reasons. And it still exists today because people find it antisocial and, you know, the the flow on effects of the behaviour. So we wouldn't, um, patrol [00:08:00] what you might call the beats because the beats, as I understand it from from from a male homosexual point of view, would be where adult male homosexuals would go to establish a relationship fleeting or permanent with another male. And everybody knew that it was a male and a male. But as I say, we would become interested in the aspect of a male dressed as a female because there was the fraudulent aspect of it. Plus, it was still a crime. [00:08:30] So when you saw, um, street workers, did you actively discourage them from from being on the street? How how did that work? Well, it was it was an interesting situation because we we had no power to say Get off the street because merely being on the street because they were a male and males could not be prostitutes meant they were not committing an offence. So I mean, we would talk to them. They knew who we were. We knew who they were. They knew we knew what [00:09:00] they were doing. And, um, if we hove into view, they would, you know, very quickly disappear until we hove out of view. And then they'd be back on the corner again. So it was AAA, um, not exactly, um, a losing battle. But at least we would endeavour to keep them off the streets because we knew that sooner or later there was gonna be some disgruntled adult males out there who the next day might be coming down to the voice squad or getting their lawyer to ring us up to complain about what had happened, and they'd feel that they'd been [00:09:30] defrauded. They thought they were going to have some kind of sexual encounter with an adult female, and but it's turned, but it turns out they're having a sexual encounter with an adult male. But if it was illegal for women to be prostitutes, surely in the General public, they would know that if they saw somebody on the streets, it wasn't wasn't going to be a woman. Oh, no, no, not necessarily. The fact that it that it was that only females could be prostitutes wasn't [00:10:00] widely known amongst the general public. Um, in fact, I would venture to say that very few of the men in the street would have known that, um I'm just trying to think of of a of a corollary in in regard to the law. But, um, uh I mean, there's just many aspects of the law that the lay person just doesn't know about. And it's only when you start getting into having to administer the law, such as the vice squad and prostitution. You know, the If a woman [00:10:30] was standing on the street, then you know, she appeared for all intents and purposes, to be a prostitute. Um, and we went up and spoke to her. She very quickly, you know, verus. But if it was a man, they could stand there quite brazenly, almost. But the the the punter as the, uh, the the the poems like to call him to the punter. That person was for all intents and purposes a female, a prostitute available for hire. Can you describe for me the, um, internal attitudes in the police force around the 19 seventies [00:11:00] towards, uh, transgender gay and lesbian people? Not a lot of transgender people around in those days to to start with genuinely transgender? Um, the the the first. I was just trying to think of what her, um what her, uh, business name was, and it may come to me, but, um, in fact, a transgender individual featured in a major court case that I was involved in that actually was instrumental [00:11:30] in reversing the law or opening the law. Which is why you want to look at it that, in effect, said, yes, a man can be a prostitute. And that was a case, uh, that we had with Carmen. It's been well reported on. And I know Carmen and her extremely well. Um, and I know she won't mind me talking about this, but, um, we had a, uh, an investigation where we believed Carmen was clearly keeping a brothel and or living on the [00:12:00] earnings of a pros prostitution and committing various crimes under the Crimes Act and operating out of her coffee bar in, uh, Vivian Street. So we got an undercover agent to come up from down south, an elderly police officer. And he went in there and spoke to Carmen and introduced himself to Carmen and had a chat to Carmen. And no sooner had he spoken to her, and he had a bit of a gift for the gab, as did Carmen. She had arranged for him, uh, to with a young lady who was on the premises to go off to his hotel [00:12:30] room, which we'd arranged. So he left with this woman, went to the hotel room, we followed, um gave him X amount of time to get part of the way into the operation. Though he undercover agents, of course, never, ever engaged in any sexual contact with any of these women. And it transpired that this woman and I use those words in quotation marks was not a woman. He slash she was transgender, [00:13:00] and it transpired that he had been born a male baby boy, for all intents and purposes, a young boy, But later in life, he had gone overseas and had had a full physical sex change operation um, breast implants, the whole thing. And, um, I in fact, when we went in, burst into the hotel room. Um, I remember seeing him standing naked beside the bed. Um, and he sure looked for all intents and purposes, like a female. And it was only when we were back at the [00:13:30] vice squad office interviewing him about what had happened between him and the undercover agent and him and Carmen that we discovered that he was. Although the word transgender then hadn't been sort of invented, if you will. He was, for all intents and purposes, a male, genetically he was, and biologically, he was. So that put us in a bit of a bind because, as he had been born a male and was, for all intents and purposes, biologically a male, Then [00:14:00] he couldn't be a prostitute. So therefore, how were we going to convict Carmen from running a brothel or living on the earnings of a prostitute? And it became a very, very interesting case. I think the chief judge, the chief justice heard it at the time. Roy Stacey defended Carmen and a lot of medical evidence that had to be given by both the crown and the defence, um, for each side to say why this person either was or was not a male or a female. [00:14:30] And the judge, of course, had to leave it to the jury to decide whether they were going to convict Carmen. And this I still can't think of his name. Anyway, The upshot of it was was that they did find both Carmen and this chap guilty of the offences of living off the earnings of prostitution, et cetera, et cetera, which in effect said yes, a man can be a prostitute under New Zealand law. It's what they call case law, not actually written in statute. You can't go and pull a book down and say, You know, it's This is an offence, But by case [00:15:00] law, um, it established the fact that, yes, a man could be a prostitute under New Zealand law. So that was, um, that would have been sort of the first notable instance that I would have had any dealings with a trans genuine transgender person. And that would have been, I suspect, about 1971 or 72. Um, you see, Carmen was, for all intents and purposes, always a guy. You know, There was no doubt in anybody's mind, um, that [00:15:30] she was underneath her flamboyant seat, uh, that she was a guy. Um, whereas this individual, um was it Carol de Winter? Was it Carol Can't think she had her photo, Her naked photographs. Some truth on may have been. I'm not certain. I just can't remember at the moment, but, um, yeah, so that seemed a bit of a benchmark. Um, but as I say, in terms of genuine transgender people, she would be one of the very first that that I certainly came across on vice. [00:16:00] There were others that came along in years gone by, but, um, they were, by and large what we misnamed as transvestites. I just men dressed in women's clothing. Um, people like, um, Carol, if it was Carol, um, I wouldn't I would never call Carmen a transgender because I'm pretty certain she while she had breast implants from the point of view of physical operation, she never went any further than that. I'm pretty certain, and I think she said so herself. Um [00:16:30] so it was mainly a mixture of actual prostitutes, women, the occasional transgender, such as as as Carol you mentioned, um, and then people like Carmen who were, um, still overtly a male. But I suppose depending on how many sheets to the wind you were, you know, you could be confused for thinking that she wasn't a male and that she was a female. But, I mean, we were dealing with these, as I say, misnamed [00:17:00] transvestites quite a lot. And and it never ceased to surprise me how a presumably straight, uh, individual could import tune one of these transvestites and not realise that they were dealing with a man. Uh, because, you know, some of them were very big boys, Um, and and in in their in their garb, they just they were almost caricatures [00:17:30] of females, you know, to to. But I suppose that's because I was dealing with them all the time and talking with them and interacting with them, And that sort of thing became very obvious to me that they were males. Um, but I suppose if you're, you know, staggering out of the, um uh, the hotel at, you know, 10 o'clock at night and you saw someone dressed in a skirt across the road. You know, the brain says, Hey, that's a girl. But just going on to you, talking about the beats in terms of male homosexuals you know, trawling if you'll excuse [00:18:00] the phrase for for other males of a like inclination, um, we had pretty much enough to do without concentrating or investigating that kind of thing a lot. It was certainly crimes being committed male and decently assaulting another male, albeit with consent. Um, but unless we got a specific complaint, I remember there used to be some. In fact, there still are that they are being refurbished men's toilets round at Lyall Bay and they were apparently [00:18:30] a a, uh, a favourite meeting spot. And from time to time, we might get a complaint from a, uh a straight male who had gone to use the toilets and and had possibly been importuned. Or there was AAA male homosexual hanging around clearly wanting to meet up with someone for sexual activities, and they that would be offensive to the straight guys so they might complain to us. But we certainly never particularly targeted the beats and that sort of thing, and really only, [00:19:00] um, investigated activities of straight males on beats when we got a complaint. As I say, with all the other vice squad things we had to we had enough to do. You've mentioned the word importuned a number of times. Can you tell me what that means? Oh, importuned means soliciting. In other words. If, um, uh, if I was a male homosexual and I wanted to see if I could hook up with someone, uh, then I would perhaps go to the toilets out at Lyall Bay or [00:19:30] the ones that used to be in town, Uh, the infamous ones where, um, Colin Moyle got caught, so to speak. Um, I would go there, and I might, you know, stand at the urinal for just far too long. Uh, just waiting to see if someone was someone was gonna come in and if some guy came in, um, and even whether he, uh, made any recognition or any sign or gave any idea that he was looking for contact, uh, the other person would, [00:20:00] you know, start talking to them, perhaps, and introduce some, um, sexual overtones to the conversation and that sort of thing. So you're importuning soliciting? Same sort of thing. I'm just wondering if we can go back to, um maybe some of the attitudes within the police about, um, transvestites. Can you recall? Were there any words that were used to describe them, or how were they treated with? I mean, were they treated with respect, or were they kind of looked down on, or I wouldn't say they were treated with respect, [00:20:30] But then again, I wouldn't, uh, difficult to, um just trying to think of the right words there. Um, they were, as I say, they were misnamed from the whoever decided to call them transvestites. I don't know. That's just something that they grew up in society. And it wasn't just a police jargon. It was a word that was widely used in the media. Um, and the word gay, I suppose, hadn't quite come into common usage then in terms of a male [00:21:00] homosexual who looked like a male dress and female dress and female clothing. Um, I mean, we would arrest, um, transvestites. We perhaps come across them in a car with somebody perhaps, um uh uh, masturbating them or doing some kind of a sexual act so we could then arrest them for being a male and decently assaulting another male. Albeit it was done done with consent. So we would arrest them, put them in the car, take them down to the police station, [00:21:30] interview them, get a statement from them and, uh, keep them in the cells overnight. Um, in the morning, uh, they'd be given breakfast. We had what was called line up, Uh, where they where the prisoners kept in overnight would be individually brought into a room, Um, and just questioned as to what their name was, who they were while they were there and behind a big sheet of, um, one way glass. That'd be the rest of the CIB and other staff on just so they could get to see who these people were. [00:22:00] But, no, they I wouldn't say they were treated in in in any other special or different way. They were just another criminal. I mean, they were looked upon as having committed a criminal offence. Um, so they just sort of were processed through the court and through the through the police cells. I certainly don't, um, uh, have any recollection or even of hearing any sort of rumours of of, um, [00:22:30] transvestites or transgender people, uh, being treated in any other way. Other than that, they're a human being. But they're a crook. You're a criminal. So we've got to get them through the process. And before the court, were they segregated in any way in the police cells? Uh, no. Down at Central, we had a pretty big double row of one. First floor, ground floor, first floor, row of cells. Um, so and I would have think that seven a 12, [00:23:00] we could have had upwards of 16 or 20 cells. Um, bearing in mind they weren't there for very long. Um, if they'd been arrested at, say, around midnight or one o'clock in the morning, they were only there from that point on until, uh, they went to court at half past nine. They'd get bailed at court, so they'd only be in the station for about eight hours. Um, I would suspect that and be bearing in mind. You see, when? When when a detective arrests someone and takes them down to what's [00:23:30] called the watch house. Uh, it's the watch house keeper who's a uniform branch constable who's in charge of all the prisoners and in charge of the cell block. And it would be that officer who would decide into which cell any particular prisoner goes. And I would think as a matter of course, they would Most probably segregate, um, transvestites. Um I mean, if there was two or three of them arrested in one night, they might put them all in one cell together. Um, just for company, for no other reason. Um, but I doubt [00:24:00] that they would, in fact, put them in a cell with another criminal just because you didn't do that. Anyway, offenders were normally segregated, particularly if they were arrested in connection with the same thing. So did many of those kind of raids happen on on, um, brothels? Oh, we would raid brothels. Um, I was gonna say on demand. Um, there were certainly, uh, quite a few [00:24:30] of them operating in Wellington. And we would get information from time to time, usually from neighbours who were saying, Oh, they'd ring up, you know, Or they'd get someone to come in and tell us that you know, such and such a place is a, um uh is being run as a brothel. So we would carry out some surveillance on the place to see whether or not there was, in fact, um, a brothel being run. There were the females only living in the house. How big a house was it? What number of bedrooms were there? Uh, who was the landlord? Could he be approached? Um, how [00:25:00] would people get up there? How would they get back that sort of thing. And, um, you would soon work out that. Oh, yeah. You know, from eight o'clock at night, there's a continual stream of taxis going from the, um you know, from the, uh, the bank in Courtney Place just down from, um I forget the name of the coffee bar and, um, Marie Bank Street, um, which was frequented by Japanese seamen. And they they would go to certain houses in Wellington. And it didn't take us long to work out where? So we do some surveillance, Um, get sufficient evidence, get [00:25:30] a search warrant. Wait until there were, you know, three or four males inside the house and crash bang the front door, So yeah, quite simple. And as I say, we would just do that on demand, so to speak. You know, we we might develop the case ourselves because of something that we've seen, you know, just driving around. And I saw that cab at that house the other day, and now it's back at the house on the time of night or the same people coming and going, that sort of thing. We sometimes develop them ourselves. Sometimes we get [00:26:00] some information from the public. How did you feel enforcing? Um, these kind of morality laws. Interesting question. Um, I didn't feel anything in particular because it was a law that they were breaking. Um, and I'm just trying to think of a of a bit of a in regard to other laws. Um uh, take bookmaking. Now, We would often work on a Saturday afternoon because that's when bookmakers work. And we would go and kick [00:26:30] in the doorways of shops because the guy was back at his work instead of running his book from home. He'd run it from the back of his shop or houses. And what have you now? I don't gamble. I'm not interested in horse racing anything like that at all. But it didn't take me long to do a bit of crash banging of doors to realise that bookmakers were actually providing a service that is substantial or not necessarily substantial, that AAA sizable percentage of the population actually wanted [00:27:00] else they wouldn't be in business. Um, and I just thought about that and thought that was an interesting thing to sort of way of looking at it. But and it seemed to me that the state should have been providing some kind of a way to regulate this illegal industry so that it no longer existed and all the tax that was not being paid on those earnings was going into the coffers. Um, so whilst I held this particular view that gee, the government should be doing something [00:27:30] about this, I never expressed it to anyone. It was just a purely personal, um idea or or or 10 that I held in my brain. Um, and I still went out there and kicked indoors. Um, take, uh, what's another, uh, morality law? Abortion. Now, when I grew up in Hastings, um, we were a Church of England family. Went to church once a month. Boy Scout. All that kind of car on the subject of abortion [00:28:00] was never mentioned, of course, because in the fifties and sixties. You didn't talk about those sorts of things. Not deliberately. It was just something that you know people didn't talk about. So I joined the police. And during the course of my 18 months as a cadet, uh, and we started looking at all the crimes under the Crimes Act abortion, unlawful killing of an unborn child, et cetera, et cetera. And that's where I first became aware really of abortion and how it was done and that sort of thing. So I thought, Oh, yeah, that's that's the crime. So that's what we do. [00:28:30] And I was involved in several abortion investigations when I was in the CIB. Not because that was part of the vice squad, because it wasn't, uh, one of the squads was just collect you known as the General Squad and anything that came in that wasn't specifically named for a squad got given to the general squad, and I was on general for quite a while and did a number of, um, abortion investigations when I was, uh, on General one in particular was a taxi [00:29:00] driver, uh, who would go around doing abortions. And he kept his abortion kit wrapped up in a I don't know whatever in the boot of his taxi, which I didn't think it was a very good idea. Um, there were other abortionists who operated outside of Wellington, and I again I came to the impression understanding or knowledge that this was something that shouldn't be a crime. But it is a service, a health service [00:29:30] that the state should provide to the public. But despite holding that view and as a view I still hold, I had to go out and enforce that law because that's what I had sworn to do when I put my hand on the Bible and said, You know, blah, blah, blah when I became a police officer. So and I I think that kind of, uh, conflict, um, would exist with many, many policemen. Now, of course. And as I mentioned earlier on, um, abortion is pretty much legal these days. [00:30:00] Bookmaking most probably still exists, but not to the degree it used to. Uh, we haven't talked a lot about pornography, but I mean the pornography that we were dealing with in the sixties and seventies, you can now go and rent for a dollar a night down at your local video shop. Um, and that's all changed. Um, and abortion is is is virtually, um, you know, AAA state provided service now, so all those crimes of morality [00:30:30] are no longer crimes, so they've changed. But even if they hadn't changed, I would still hold the view. If I If I was still in the police, I would still hold the view that the state should be in a position to provide these, um, services. Uh, because there are people who need them from time to time. And actually, in regard to the abortion thing, you may know the name of Doctor Margaret Sparrow. Um, she's very, uh, heavily involved and has been for decades in the legalised [00:31:00] abortion movement. And she wrote a book a couple of years ago on the history of abortion in New Zealand. And I spoke to her and went into quite a lot more detail. And, um uh, about, you know, the way that I approached the, uh, the investigation of abortion. It was a crime. So that's what you investigated you mentioned before about Carmen. And I'm just wondering, um, when did you first meet Carmen? Hard to say. Um, I most probably met or came across car. And before [00:31:30] I actually, uh, was transferred onto the vice squad just because I was a detective in Wellington and she was AAA figure, you know, someone to get to know in Wellington and that sort of thing. Um, so I don't actually remember that, but I do remember, And I may have related this anecdote to you before I do remember that when I got transferred from whatever squad I was on onto the vice squad and my sergeant was a chap by the name of Paul Fitzharris, and he was only about as tall as I was. So we were the sort of two shortest [00:32:00] detectives in Wellington. Why they did that, I don't know. And of course, Carmen and many of her friends and associates were quite big people, you know? But that was OK. But the interesting thing was that it didn't take, uh, Carmen's, uh, associates to become aware that my first name, Trevor was the same as Carmen's real first name. Now, one thing I quickly learned on the voice squad was that you never, ever addressed [00:32:30] a transvestite transgender person by their real name. You found out what their, uh, pseudonym was, if you will. And that's how you address them, because that's how they like to be addressed. So whenever I spoke to Carmen, it was Carmen. Never. Trevor never ever thought of calling her that. And she always called me Detective Morley or Detective Sergeant fitters. And that was the way we conducted our business. Um, and you [00:33:00] know, and and Paul Terras would would tell you if he was here, that Carmen was one of the most pleasant people we ever had to deal with in in our voice squad days. But so here's Detective Trevor Morley walking into Carmen's International Coffee bar in Vivian Street. And this is not long after I'd been transferred onto the vice squad and people began to know my name. And within a few seconds of walking through that door into the haze and the fog and the thug and the coffee and the smoke and all that sort of thing, you'd hear echoing through [00:33:30] the coffee bar, Trevor. And of course, Carmen would turn around and and, you know, look daggers at whoever she thought had said that because you just didn't call her by that name in front of other people, and she would eventually work out who was calling out, and she'd go and she'd stand in front of them and wave a big fat finger under their nose and say, How dare you? And they would look at her with, you know, mock solemnity on their face dead pan and say No, darling, I was talking to Detective Morley, [00:34:00] so if you'll excuse the pun, I became the butt of some jokes amongst the transgender and transvestite community, but it was all just part of that fun. But you know, that night that we arrested Carmen over with that that investigation I mentioned before with with I think it might have been Carol. Now, um, you know, she was pleasant to deal with, you know? No problems. Come with us, Carmen. Yes, of course. You know you'll ring Mr Stacey for me, will you? But of course, Carmen, as soon as we get to the station and Roy would come down and, you know, you're just very pleasant to deal with. Yeah. [00:34:30] So was that quite a regular thing? Her being arrested? Oh, no, no, no. Uh, we arrested her on that occasion. there was another. I think we might have arrested her twice. Um and I think it was after the second time that she decided it was time to go to Australia. Um, so I think I could claim some responsibility for terminating her initial, uh, career in Wellington? Um, no, As I say we arrested at that time, there was a second occasion, I think, where a young policeman [00:35:00] went upstairs to the rooms above the coffee bar. Um, there might have been a third occasion. I think if there was a third occasion, she was acquitted or the judge or the jury couldn't agree or whatever, but she could see the writing on the wall. Um, the other thing is that it became extremely well known amongst the police and amongst the public at large that Carmen was, in effect, running a brothel. Now the question was, If there's a vice squad and that someone is popular and as public as calm and [00:35:30] running a brothel, how come she ain't being arrested? Then? Of course, the answer is she's most probably not being arrested because she's paying off the police. So there was no way we were going to let that kind of rumour flourish because, uh, it's in the area of vice that corruption can occur within police departments. And it's happened, you know, overseas. And in fact, the only just quickly digressing. The only time in my whole 70 year in the place, 70 years in the police that [00:36:00] anyone ever came halfway to trying to bribe me was when I was on the vice squad. And it was a bookmaker that we, uh, arrested running a book out of a house in, uh, Brooklyn. And we crashed. Banged the front door this Saturday afternoon, and as we ran down the hallway, he ran into the kitchen and picked up a briefcase and threw it out the kitchen window. So we had a young policeman with us to give us a hand. So he went outside and ferreted through the bushes and found the briefcase, bought it in, opened the briefcase, and it was [00:36:30] chock a block with cash. You couldn't have got another dollar note in there, so this is interesting, he said. What's that for Joe? He said, Oh, it's for me to pay out on my winnings or or my losings on, uh, tomorrow Sunday or Monday before the banks open. Oh, it's all right. So we got into the car to go back to the vice squad office to lock him up, and he'd, incidentally, had one previous conviction for bookmaking and bookmaking was one of those very rare offences whereby for a second or [00:37:00] subsequent conviction, you had to go to jail and he didn't want to go to jail. So we're driving back. Uh, and for some reason, Paul for Terrace was driving. I was sitting in the back behind Paul on the back seat between me and Joe was the briefcase with the money. And we're driving down Brooklyn Hill Road and Joe sort of leaned over and sort of give a nod towards the the bag of money. And I said, Oh, yeah, What? He said, uh, why don't you get the sergeant to slow down at the bottom of Brooklyn Hill and I might just [00:37:30] fall out of the car and leave my bag behind, I said, Oh, that's not a bad idea, Joe. I said, Hey, Paul caught Paul's eye in the re. We went, Hey, Paul, do you want to slow down at the bottom of the hill, he said No, What do I want to do that for? Well, Joe's, um, just given us the night on the briefcase here, he said, Oh, is that right? I said, Yeah, he thinks he might. You know, if you slow down enough, he could fall out of the car and leave the briefcase behind. Oh, I said, Paul, you know, all in sort of mock seriousness. He said, Uh, how much [00:38:00] is in the briefcase? I said, How much is in the briefcase? Joe Joe said, Oh, there'll be a good 10 grand there, I said, There's a good 10 grand there. Paul and Paul just looked at me and said, Yeah, it's not enough, is it? That's how we dealt with it. We could have charged him with attempted bribery, but you know it just But yeah, that's the, uh, you know, I and I'm quite certain if Paul had wanted to slow down, Joe would have jumped out because 10 grand to him is better than going to jail. Yeah, but only it only ever happened on the boy squad, which to me, was, you know, [00:38:30] pretty typical. That's where that's where the corruption comes. from. So that's another thing why we couldn't not prosecute Carmen. Uh, yeah, You just could not let people carry on committing, committing vice type offences without doing something about it. So with Carmen, was it very much a kind of a cat and mouse type thing that I mean, you knew the game. She knew the game a lot. A lot of a lot of a lot of crime is like that. I mean, we would go around some of the nightclubs and coffee bars late at night, [00:39:00] and, um, we would, um, Paul and I would end up playing, um, playing pool with some quite well known criminals me and a crew, another criminal, Paul, and playing that. But there was always this sort of undercurrent, this undertone that they knew we were the police and they knew that if they were gonna commit crime the next day and we caught them, they were gonna get locked up. This game of pool had nothing to do with it. And we knew that we were the police and they were criminals. And if they were committing crime tomorrow and got away [00:39:30] with it, well, that was their good luck. there was There was this sort of gentleman's, uh, rules, Shall we say the Queensbury rules of fighting crime? Um, nowadays, it's a lot different. I don't think those kinds of relationship exist anymore between the police and the criminal fraternity. Um, but yeah. And we would often meet up with, you know, with well known criminals and, you know, have a beer in a hotel with them and then carry on. Um, just so that, you know, we knew they knew that we knew that they knew sort of thing. [00:40:00] Yeah. Yeah. How did come And and the rest of the girls kind of feel about police? What did they have names for you guys if they did? Um, it's not. It's, uh I'm just trying to think if they did, they must have kept it to themselves, because, um, I mean, usually, the the the interaction we had with them, um I mean, we'd pass the pleasantries of the day or the night, but that wouldn't take very long. [00:40:30] And then we might have to, um, interview them about some complaint or something or other. Um, I mean, it was like when, um when the massage, the massage parlours first came in, It was just a euphemism for a brothel. You know, um, we would go around there, not so much, talk to the girls, but talk to the mad and the lady who was running it. And again, it was just, um just to let them know that we knew what they were doing. Um, and as long as they had no drugs in the place, as long as none of the customers got rolled or beaten or had their wallets taken [00:41:00] from them, then they'd be OK to carry on in business. It was a sort of a tacit understanding between the the forces of law and the forces of water. And I mean, that's all been taken care of now with the with with the the new, Um, but the court Is it the mass parlours act or something different anyway? But, you know, B brothels are now legal. Um, And again, it's just another way that morality has within my short lifetime, gone sort of a full, you know, 3 60 degrees. Yeah. You were also saying that part [00:41:30] of your work was indecent publications. Was there much? Um, gay, lesbian, transgender, indecent publications not a lot. No, I'm just trying to reflect on that. Um, most I would think, um, I would think that 90 5% possibly even higher was your heterosexual, uh, pornography in those days. It was, as I say initially, um, silent eight millimetre film. Um, [00:42:00] then, um, Deep throat came out, and we we had a major investigation about that because some guys imported a copy of it from America, made a negative copy of the film, which was on two big 16 mil reels with soundtrack and the whole lot. And then the original went down to the Antarctic for Operation Deep Freeze. And these two guys who worked out at the National Film unit, um, were going to make their millions by taking copies of the negative [00:42:30] they've made and sell them. So it was originally imported into New Zealand to be then shipped down to Antarctica. Well, not well. It was originally, uh, taken out, taken out of the continental USA to go to the Antarctic on an operation deep free ship. And they always called into Wellington on the way. Um, and these two guys out at the national film unit how they became aware of it? I don't know, but they did. And they were able to keep the film for long enough to make a copy of it. Um, but just going back to your original question. So heterosexual [00:43:00] pornography, Um, eight mil film. Then, um, that came out on a 16 mil. Then the, um in fact, we had so many, um, eight mil reels of film that we got a little, uh, manually operated film editor because we just didn't have the time to run the whole thing through. And you'd put the reels on and wind them through and have a look at the picture and wind them through again. And we had to do that because one or two people got clever and, um, particularly when VHSS came in, they would have the first few [00:43:30] feet of the film, you know, a Walt Disney cartoon, and then it would be the pornography. So, um, but no, um, very, very little of it from memory. Hardly any was was gay. Um, I accept, um, gay in terms of of a male on male, female on female, totally different, because that that has a seems to have a particular interest for a lot of guys, Um, and females, of course. Um And then, uh, magazines, tonnes and tonnes of meat. We [00:44:00] get them by the, um, imported from, uh, from out of Europe and that sort of thing, and we send them out to the big shredder that a shredder government had a shredder out at or somewhere. Um, but no. Very, very little gay pornography in those days. Very little. And now, of course, it's all pretty much legit. Unless it's really serious stuff. Deep Throat story. Can you continue with that? That sounds fascinating. Oh, OK, let me just go back very quickly, OK? These two guys employs the national film unit. [00:44:30] Um, got hold of this copy of the of Deep Throat, made a negative copy of it, gave the original back to the sailor, and I went down to Operation Decrease. With this negative, they surreptitiously over a period of time during their lunch hours and sneaking back at night, made a original print of the negative one that you could actually view. So they're in a little theatre in the national film unit, out at one night watching this first print to see what it looked like. But the manager [00:45:00] of the national film unit had, of course, heard on the grapevine what was going on. He knew they were in there with a couple of their mates, so he burst in on them, grabbed the two rolls of film out of the projector, went outside, threw them in an incinerator and burnt them, went back in and said, There piss off because you both fired and he fired them on the spot and some months went past and nothing happened. And he thought that he managed to quell the fire, so to speak, and that he kept the lid on this thing until one Friday afternoon. [00:45:30] The director general of the tourist and publicity department, which no longer exists. But we didn't know that and which controlled and ran the national film unit. The DG is in the in his office in town. He gets a call one a Friday afternoon from the editor of Truth, who said, Oh, look, I want you to listen to what's gonna be the headline front page of next week's truth on Tuesday, bearing in mind, this is Friday. I want you to comment on it, Oh, says the DG Oh, what What's the headline gonna be? The headline is Government [00:46:00] Department Prince Blue Movies. Who said the DG Can I get back to you on that? One hung up and immediately rang the commissioner of police because he knew nothing other than that. But that was enough to give him the willies. So at that particular day, I was My sergeant was away, and I was the office acting and sergeant in charge of the vice squad. And I had a, uh, a young detective to just assist me. So we go over to the commissioner's office, get told to [00:46:30] head down to the director general of tourism and publicity, and he said, Look, I've just had this phone call. I don't know what it's all about, but go out to the national firm and talk to the general manager. So we go out to the national film and talk to the general manager, and that's when he tells us this little back story about him burning the film, you see? So I said, we better get on to this. So one of the guys, one of the offenders, uh, graham, lived out way. So in case he still had a film or something, like he [00:47:00] went and got a search warrant for his house, went and knocked on his door. This would be near about eight o'clock on the Friday night said, Come with us, mate. We're going to have some meaningful dialogue in the vice squad office. So he realised that he'd been caught, you see, So we get back to the vice squad office and have a lengthy interview with him, and he tells us the story. Take all that down on the statement. That's fine. So we take him downstairs to the White House and say, Right, you're staying here. You're not going anywhere. We got to go and get your mate, get a search warrant for his house and go up to Brooklyn. And it's now getting till, I suppose, or at least midnight [00:47:30] one o'clock in the morning. And this was a fellow called John, and his name will come to me. John, someone knock on the door, light goes on inside Door opens, and there's John in his pyjamas, and I say, Hello, John. We haven't seen each other since the sixth form at Hastings Boys High School. Get your jammies off and your suit on. We're going to have some meaningful dollar. So we're going to interview him. And he tells his side of the story, which agrees with his co offender. But what [00:48:00] the manager of the National film Unit hadn't realised is that when he had ripped the two reels of film out of the projector and burnt them, he thought he was destroying all the evidence. But the negative was still in existence. He didn't know about that. But we found that out by interviewing these two guys into the early hours of the Saturday morning. So and we went all when I remember going out to lower hut at one stage, we eventually located this [00:48:30] negative copy the two reels of negative in a suitcase under a beard out somewhere. So we thought, OK, that's interesting. So we wanted to prosecute these two guys with printing an indecent document which Deep Throat was in those days. It was indecent, but the problem was, the document they had printed had been destroyed. So how were we going to prove that what they destroyed wasn't decent? And in those days you had to get [00:49:00] the and I think, I think. And still, in these days, to get the prosecution under the Indecent Publication Act, you had to get the solicitor general's permission. So file goes off the solicitor general and he wrote back and said, Well, how are you gonna prove that it was indecent because it's been destroyed? And then I suddenly thought, I know how we can do that, Got the two negative copies, went back out to the national funeral one morning, went into the general manager's office and said, Remember that headline that truth was gonna publish? He said, Yep, Government department makes blue [00:49:30] movies. Yep, I said, Well, we're gonna put that into practise. He said, What do you mean? I said, Here's the negative. Make me a copy. He said, I can't do that. I said, Yes, you can. And they did. And I followed this negative all through this process of of, of making a copy because we knew from the evidence we could produce to the court that this was the one and only negative from which a document had been printed, which was indecent but which had been destroyed. Therefore, this [00:50:00] copy they were now making for me was identical, so I knew it was gonna be a fight. And so we had a case. And and, uh, Roy Stacey defended one of these guys and then a judge. He's a lawyer who's now a judge of the high court, defended the other guy. So of course we have the case and there's a few preliminary witnesses and what have you? And then I stand in the witness box and I've got these two rolls of film that they'd made for me at the national funeral. And I could see Roy Stacey shaking his head like this, and I'd hardly got one. You know, Exhibit A [00:50:30] if you want, Please hang on. Mr. Morley, who said So there was this huge big argument as to whether or not we could produce this copy from the negative, which we were going to say is identical to the one that was destroyed and there was a big legal argument of it. Big legal argument of it, and anyway, eventually, the judge said, Well, before I accept this as an exhibit, I think I better have a look at it. So we we took took one of the conference rooms at police headquarters and, um showed [00:51:00] the judge the film, and he eventually agreed that yes, on the basis of what we said to him, we could circumstantially prove that this was identical to the item that had been destroyed and he convicted both of them. So that was a bit of an interesting landmark case, A bit like the case with Carmen, uh, and the male being a prostitute. And that here was a case, and I think it's the only time it's ever occurred in New Zealand law. Here was a case where people were convicted of printing an indecent document [00:51:30] that at the time of their conviction, no longer existed. But as I say, you go down to your local corner video shop these days, and you can hire a deep throat for a dollar a night, you know, or even or even less so it's It's again, this complete change in morality just in a few short years. See, that would have been an investigation in the early seventies, I suppose. 72 73 83 9. You know, not even 40 years later, complete reversal in the in the laws relating to indecency. So [00:52:00] it's a bit like that bookshop fellow and, um and I know Don. He runs the book Haven in Newtown. Someone discovered that he had a book in his warehouse called Bloody Mama. This is just earlier this year, late last year, early this year, which had been declared indecent in 1962. Yet it was still indecent. And he he, uh the indecent publications people came and took it off him, and, uh, they they re reviewed it and reclassified [00:52:30] it as no longer indecent, because once something is declared indecent, it it stays indecent. Yeah, So then you've got indecent publications. What about, um, indecent performance? Was that? Oh, yeah, sure. Indecent performances. We'd go around the strip clubs and again talking about changes in morality. Um, we would go around the strip clubs, and in those days, uh, the strippers used to keep their panties on if I remember correctly. And in the early days, they might have had a little pasties on their nipples. But I think [00:53:00] by the time I left the vice squad, those had being removed. Not because of anything specific. There was no law to say. It's like, um when the follies used to come out here in the 19 fifties. Um uh, some of the performers could appear naked, but they couldn't move. They had to stay in stock. Still, So they were almost like a statue, and the spotlight would come on them and you'd see a naked [00:53:30] lady standing there, and then the spotlight would fade in and they'd go to another part of the stage, and there would be another lady standing there, but they couldn't move. I mean, it was it was almost as if by moving, they were going to be indecent. Yeah, but that had long gone By the time I got onto the voice squad so you'd have strippers at the Purple Onion and many Papadopoulos is club exotic. Um, And the other thing, of course, was that a lot of the strippers at Carmen's were males, you see, So, um, [00:54:00] uh, they could take off almost as much as they liked, uh, because their were not per se indecent because they were a man's nipples. So it was the defining thing of indecency that if if you showed nipples, that was a that was not well, not necessarily. But as I say, I seem to recall that when I first went on the vice squad, most of the strippers had little pasties. They stuck over their nipples because for some reason, that was thought to be OK. But by the time the transition came, um, where they were [00:54:30] no longer wearing pasties, Um, it wasn't because the Commissioner of police said, Yes, you can take your pasties off now. It was it was some sort of subliminal, subtle, kind of a sort of a, uh, I don't know, thought wave that went out through society that said, Oh, it's OK to do that now, most probably influenced from overseas, you know, people reading Playboy magazine and Penthouse and that sort of thing. Um, but I guess we would monitor will monitor call [00:55:00] into the strip clubs and watch the girls stripping just to see what they were doing. And I remember one instance there was a woman at, um, Manny Papadopoulos Club. Exotic. And what did she do? She had a feather bower between between her legs, somehow or other. She was doing almost like she had this giant Penis, and she was masturbating, and we thought that's a bit too far. That's that's getting into the realms of an indecent performance. So we prosecuted her and Manny and [00:55:30] got They were convicted of indecent performance some time later, and I can't think how long, but it couldn't have been more than perhaps 18 months to two years later. Back at the club Exotic. Same performance, we thought. What are they doing? You know, they mad or something, you know, get off the stage. You come on with this man here. Come on, mate. You're getting locked up. So we did. Went through the whole procedure again. But the judge or the magistrate on that occasion said no morality has changed, detective in the last [00:56:00] 18 months to two years, no longer indecent. So it was little decisions like that that gradually chipped away. And I don't mean that in a negative way. Or or, um permitted the bounds of indecency to expand so that things that were once thought indecent, no longer work. I mean, you go to the strip clubs now, and it's, you know, total nudity. Absolutely. So I mean again, there's that change. Uh, you know, the things that happened were not that I've been in a strip [00:56:30] club for a long time, but, um, things that happen in strip clubs now and some of the sex clubs in Auckland, um, just would not have happened in those days. They'd be straight into the clink when somebody was convicted of an indecency like that. How would it affect them? Would would it, you know, kind of ruin them or Oh, no, no. In fact, I think to some extent, it's almost a badge of honour. Um, it sort of showed that they were sort of prepared to push the boundaries [00:57:00] and that sort of thing, Um, I mean, and and that it wouldn't prevent them getting work anywhere. You know, um, nothing like that at all. I mean, unless they suddenly wanted to go and work in a supermarket. But, I mean, they would. There was just a small group of people strippers who would work, you know, go between the various clubs. You'd find them dancing for Manny, and then they'd be dancing for, um, across the road. And that's all down with car and and up to Auckland. And, you know, with Ray and Hasty and that sort of thing. So, [00:57:30] uh, no. Amongst amongst that, um that clique I. I would think that would almost be a badge of honour, so to speak. On the other side of the coin, did you have anything to do with, um, moral's campaigner, Patricia Bartlett? Well, I did, to the extent that she was one of our major complainants, but I can I can vividly remember going to see her out of her little flat unit out at nine. And she pulled this battered old suitcase out from underneath the bed [00:58:00] to show me this terrible, terrible pornography, detective. But what it was was Playboys, penthouse and health and nature magazines. You know, I don't know if if Patricia had actually ever seen any real hardcore pornography and the organisation What was it? The Society for the promotion of Community standards? That's right. Um uh I mean, well, meaning, um, heart's in the right place, But I think that, like a lot of pressure [00:58:30] groups in society, they, um, were accorded far more influence than they really should have had. So, yeah, I had some dealings with her, but not a lot on the other thing we occasionally went to I remember we went to a play at Downstage um, that had Now why did we go and see some again? Someone complained. Could well have been Patricia or one of her people. I think it was language and nudity. I think it was a nudity on the part of [00:59:00] one of the female actresses. So, um, Paul and I went and sat in the audience, watched this play and put in a report and said, We can't see anything wrong with it, and that was it. So it was pretty much something like that was pretty much left to our judgement. You know, we could have said, Yeah, it's terrible, shocking, you know, naked. But But I think from the point of view of the nudity, I think it was because there was a nudity, uh, in a theatre, as opposed to nudity in a strip club where you would expect [00:59:30] it. And I think this might have been one of the first plays, um, in a straight theatre, a genuine theatre, uh, involving, uh, nudity, particularly female. It might have even been male nudity. I just forget now nudity somewhere anyway, But then from memory, it was nothing to you know, to be bothered with. So you were on the vice squad. For how many years? Oh, look, I should have got all my I got all my notebooks out and had a look. Um, I left in 77 and [01:00:00] 77. I was on the car squad. Uh, when I left, I'd gone to car squad from there. So 6543 I, I think at least a good six years. Why did you leave the police? Oh, it's time for a change. I've been in the police for 17 years, and I just felt that it was time to, you know, do something different. Yeah. Do you have any reflections on on your time in in the vice squad and and what we've been talking about over the last hour? [01:00:30] Well, um, you know, to me, it was just another aspect of police work. Um, albeit very interesting. I'd often said, um, I often say to this day, if they left me on the vice squad, I'd still, you know, be in the place because I just found it very interesting and fascinating work. Um, the people that you met, that sort of thing. Um, but the only reflections Are you interesting? Uh, great people. Very interesting cases. I mean, that deep throat case. [01:01:00] Um, the case with Carmen, those sorts of cases, um, were very interesting. Um, that you wouldn't get involved in other than being on the vice squad. And as long as you keep your nose clean and and, uh, you know any attempts to to corrupt you? Uh, yeah. I could have still been there. I wouldn't have been married any longer, but because it was not so, what would happen is I'd go to work about two o'clock of an afternoon. Wife's at work. Kids are at school, go to work, check some paperwork, make some phone calls. Da [01:01:30] da da. And then Paul and I would get in a car and go into town somewhere for a meal for a dinner, and then we'd start going around the clubs and the pubs and what have you and most probably get home if we start to work at two. Sometime close to midnight. Right? Wife's asleep. Kids are asleep. I get into bed six hours later, wife gets up, kids get up. Wife goes to work, kids go to work. I wake up about 10 o'clock in the morning house is empty. We're living [01:02:00] in the same house but not seeing each other. So certainly, um Well, I mean, a lot of not just saying voice squad work and certainly not just saying police work. Any shift work can be very debilitating to relate to, you know, good relationships. But, uh but no, I enjoyed it. And, um, as I say, fascinating people and, um, yeah.

IRN: 543
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/qwu_campbell_gordon.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003945
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089239
TITLE: Campbell Gordon - Queen of the Whole Universe
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Campbell Gordon
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Campbell Gordon; Queen of the Whole Universe; drag; performance; youth
DATE: 8 July 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast, recorded before he won Queen of the Whole Universe as Ms Spain, Campbell talks about performing in the beauty pageant.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I actually first got involved as an audience member. Um, I went along to see one of my friends, Andre, who'd been in the show, and a couple of my other friends had been in it as well. And it was just so entertaining. And, um, I loved it. And then basically, after that, they convinced me that I should join the show. And so I did. Yeah, a couple of years, a couple of years later. So can you take me through, um, that that whole process of, like, coming to the show and and you know how? How did that work for you? Um, well, to start off [00:00:30] with it was actually me and another one of my friends both sort of got shoe horned into it, and we went along to one of the first meetings and sort of found out what the show was about and what you have to put into it. And Jonathan is, um, very, very clear about the amount of work. So, I mean, what do you have to put into it? What? What did they say? Um, there's a lot of time that goes into rehearsals that we were having especially coming up to the end towards the show. Two rehearsals a week. Um, if you're working, if you are an Act [00:01:00] two girl or you're working with an a two girl, there's more on top of that for their own performance. Um, there's construction of all of your costumes and your head gear, which the headgear especially, can be a little bit of work. Some of it's very, very impressive, as I'm sure you've seen. Um, yeah, it's It's a lot of time, but it's all so entertaining, You know, all the rehearsals are just full of laughs. And, yeah, everyone gets along amazingly well. And so from that point. So you you went to the first? Yeah. I went to [00:01:30] the first couple of meetings and had a couple of meetings. Um, there there were. I think there were about three of them before we actually got into rehearsals and things where it was just sort of laying out the layout of the show and what they were looking at doing this year. And he sort of found out a couple of the songs and things and what was expected of us. And we had a good talk with Jonathan and he gives. He calls it drag 101 where he teaches people how to walk. And, um, yeah, how you need to pad and things. So [00:02:00] had you done drag before? No, I never done drag before. Have you done any kind of performance? No, Um, I was one of those kids who always wanted to, but I went to a rather large all boys school and the drama group. There was very, very small and very separate from everybody else, and I just never sort of got into it. I was more with the geek group at school. So, uh, one doing performance, but two also doing performance in drag. I mean, that's quite a big step from not that was a bit to wrap my head around, but, you [00:02:30] know, I thought, Why not? When else am I gonna get the chance to be on stage in front of 2000 people doing this kind of thing? Yeah, it was very, very cool. So take me through. Drag 101. What were the kind of things that he was teaching you Gosh, so long ago? Uh, I remember the biggest one. It was I think a lot of people struggle with is how to walk. And it's walking, not necessarily like a woman. Sometimes it's even. You have to exaggerate it more. [00:03:00] To try and or half what drag is is it's exaggeration rather than you know, a lot of men tend to walk stiffly or moving their shoulders, or as you need to actually move your hips, which I think can be very difficult for a lot of people. I certainly did find it difficult for a while, but you get into it quite easily in the end. What were some of the other things? Um, I remember we had talked about, um, making your own fake breasts and what were the best [00:03:30] materials for that kind of thing? Um, I think Jonathan's stand by with balloons full of rice or something. Yeah, I didn't end up using that. I made money out of all sorts of different things, but, I mean, even that would be quite hard to I mean, if you weren't used to it, getting the proportions right to work out how big you go. Well, I was actually really lucky. My family has been very, very supportive of the whole thing to be. They were a little bit thrown at the beginning. With the whole [00:04:00] I'm gonna be in a show dressed as a woman and didn't quite understand what that was about. Um, but after they adjusted to that, my mom actually helped me make all of my costumes. So she's been making clothes for years for herself and for her friends and for family friends. So she has a decent idea of what proportion you're supposed to be. We may have had a few little arguments over things, but yeah. So what age were you when you first started with queen of the whole universe? It was three years. I would [00:04:30] have been 19. And how did you How did how did you broach the subject with with the family? In terms of this is what I'm about to do. And, well, I basically just told them I was like, I'm gonna do the show. It's called Queen of the whole Universe. It raises money for these three fantastic foundations, and I need you to help make my costumes to my mom. She's helped me before with other things. Um, it always ends up. We're supposed to work together, and then in the last week, she does it all because [00:05:00] it hasn't happened yet. But, um, yeah, I just told I had to make my costumes and he goes, Oh, so what are we making? And I was like, Well, we have to make a ball gown and she sort of laughed a bit at that. And then, you know, once we got through it, she was fine. I think she was secretly quite happy that she got to make dresses and she was probably wanted to do it for her daughter that she never had. And so did this involve, um, going, shopping, choosing materials, all that. Yeah. We actually, um, [00:05:30] to start off with thought we'd go shopping and see if there are any things that we could just buy premade. That was very interesting. Um, I remember going into Glenfield mall with my mother into women's clothing stores and trying on clothes just so that we'd have something we wouldn't have to make. We were looking for, like, a corset top. And then I found one in an up shop that we bought. Yes, it was, um, the look on some of the sales girls faces is very entertaining, but, um yeah, once we sort of most [00:06:00] of it. We ended up making from scratch. Um, because we had the two outfits, two costumes. One of them was completely made at home. And the other one, we bought a top and then altered that quite significantly and then had to make the rest of it. So yeah, the idea for, um, what kind of dresses you were going to wear and the kind of colour scheme Was that something that you, um these are kind of like creative decisions that you made with your character. [00:06:30] Or was it? Yes. Um, well, there is a theme for the opening number because, um, it always looks best to have everyone on stage with some kind of coherency to them. So the theme for our opening number last year was purple with accents of silver for your dress. Um, Jonathan? Yes. The rules. He told us purple accents and silver full length dress, preferably with a split, because the audience likes to see your legs. So, um, that's what we did. Um, it was a very, very high split. In the end, it [00:07:00] came almost all the way up to my hip, but, um, actually made it easy to move. So, yeah, the second dress, Um, you have more control over because that was the one for the headgear of nations, which is a whole look that you have full creative control over. So, um, basically, it just comes down to what country or abstract idea? Some of them. What do you happen to be representing? Not everyone represents an actual physical country. Um, [00:07:30] and you have the whole thing themed to that, And so who will you? I always miss my space. I remember when I went to one of my couple of my favourite ones were the slightly more obscure ones. There was a Miss Fantasy Island, And, um, I knew there'd been a Miss Internet and Miss Uranus, and I thought because I was quite a lot younger than most of the other people on the show, I wanted to sort of represent that. And I thought, Miss my space would be a quite [00:08:00] an interesting way of doing it, because I wanted to bring a little bit of that sort of more almost a sort of slightly Gothic angle, which I think I got quite well in my head gear entry. Yeah. So what is, um, head gear for MySpace? Well, I came up with all these ideas, and then it turned out they were really impractical or they didn't carry across to people who weren't sort of part of the MySpace thing. But in the end, I went with, um, quite a [00:08:30] There's a term called cyberpunk or cyber goth, which it's, um, a way that people dress. And I sort of tried to emulate that and build on that a little bit. So my head gear wasn't as huge as everybody else's, but I turned it into a full look for my full outfit rather than just having this big thing sitting in my head, which I know. I thought it was another way of approaching it. So it was quite a cohesive statement. Yes, it was pretty wrong. We would say. Yeah, so I did bring some pictures. They just on my phone rather than, um, actually [00:09:00] it out because I don't have a printer. That's my full, um, outfit there for the head gear that was on stage. Which is why the colleague is a bit average, and that's me and drag. Can you describe what? What you're wearing here. Um, So here, um, this is the corset top that I bought in an op shop. And then we went through and, um, over all of the boning in the whole top, we sewed on ribbon, or my [00:09:30] mom did it and hated me for it. It was her idea in the first place. Um, and then it came down into a skirt underneath, which was a very big sort of chill skirt with pink and orange fabric over the top of it. And then you had the sort of cut off lace gloves and spiked wristband and jewellery, and it's stunning. Absolutely stunning. Had you done, you done, um, garment design before, um, a little bit. I'm [00:10:00] quite into costumes. Um, and then for other things. There a, um, convention in Auckland every year called the Armageddon Expo. Um, where me and a lot of my friends. Quite. I've done it. I've done it two years in a row. Now, um, create costumes because it's basically a festival that celebrates comic books and video games and TV shows and things like that. So people quite often build costumes of characters from those shows, and there's a whole competition about that. [00:10:30] But that's a lot of fun as well. It's a very, very similar sort of atmosphere. You know. Everyone who's in costume is accepted by everybody else, and it was very similar to Queen of the whole universe. I found just, I don't know. I think it's just something that brings people together. So you've got the costumes, which are fantastic, but also things like shoes. I mean, how how did you go? Did you go with shoes? Well, um, I've got quite big feet, so I was never going to be able to buy just a pair of women's heels, which I know [00:11:00] some people can do. Um, so Jonathan told me about the store out in. I think it's It's out south. I think it was only only hang called discount shoes, where the shoes are all generally slightly larger, and there's an entire wall at the back of the store devoted to drag shoes. Um, and I walked in there and there was this pair of boots on the wall, and as soon as I saw them, I was like Those are the ones that I need to buy. And they were sort of knee high laced up, um, patent [00:11:30] leather boots with a six inch heel on them. And I thought, at least if their boots are not going to fall out of them, Ronnie must do, uh, an amazing trade because I think most of the interviewees have Yeah, um, that's I think everyone who does drag in Auckland goes there, not just the show. Are there other favourite stores that that that you would go to the shoes or in general in general? Um, spotlight? I love spotlight. [00:12:00] It's amazing. Um, although actually for the show this year, I've bought a lot of fabric from cinder point, which I never thought I'd do because they're generally a bit more expensive, but I got lucky and there was a sale. But, um, with the show the $2 shops, actually, sometimes your best friend, especially for sparkly jewellery. You don't want anything that's expensive, but you want it to sparkle on stage. So one of the $2 shop gigantic fake diamond rings are perfect. It must be quite hard to work [00:12:30] out. You know what works well in reality might not work necessarily well on the stage. Yeah. How do you How do you work that out? Well, I think it's a bit of trail and error. Like what I found was making my first government with a The whole thing was trimmed with silver sequence, and we thought, Is it sparkly enough? And he thought, No, no, we need to put it around the top of the dress as well. So we did that and he goes, It's like, OK, yeah, now it probably is. Now we don't want to put too much on. And then when we arrived on the day [00:13:00] and then saw everyone else's costume, it's like I probably could have just covered the whole thing in sequence and it would have been fine, but yeah, it worked very well. It looked great on because we have the video from that show. So once I'd seen it, it still looked great. Is there a real competitive, uh, thing between the contestants in terms of, you know, the the kind of dresses that I work wearing, And I mean, you know, the big thing to have as many as possible or I? I don't think so. I think there's obviously definitely an element of competition in there. You know it's, but [00:13:30] it's very, very friendly competition. I think people everyone's garment, especially even for their opening number when they're trying to make everyone look similar, is so different. Um, because it's basically an expression of your personality or of the country that you're representing. So it's all up to you talk to me about the the process with your mom in terms of, you know, kind of designing and and kind of making the stuff. How does how does that all work? Well, it started off with a decent couple [00:14:00] of hours of, um, I'll say, discussing discussing ideas, um, searching things online and printing off all of these pictures and stapling them to the walls and then trying to draw what we were going to get from that, Um, the biggest complaint I got was, It's so hard trying to make a dress for a man. Um, and we actually ended up using made an evening gown out of the pattern from an A line dress, which originally was supposed [00:14:30] to finish above the knee and just extended that to the middle by about 18 inches to get work and that actually ended up working, Amazingly, but it's very much no specific pattern for a dress for a man makes things a bit interesting. But, um, once we got the pattern sorted and the fabric, we only had a few little things go wrong. Like once we actually sewn up the full dress, we realised that the fabric wasn't [00:15:00] thick enough and you could see through it That had to be changed a little bit. But, you know, so, yeah, it was actually quite cool. Very, very intense in parts. But, um, yeah, how far out before the performance state do you actually start working on the dress? Um, quite a long time. The problem starting long further out this year as well, because I've got more to do. Um, we've got about four months left now, but you don't want to be making it too [00:15:30] far out before you start the infamous Queen of the whole universe diet, which, um I think has just turned into a little bit of a joke with people wanting to look their best when they're on stage. And they're not fitting the dresses because it's suddenly gotten too large. So what is the diet. What does that? I didn't really do anything, but, um, I've I've heard it thrown around by a couple of people. Um, my friend Pia, who joined the show with me last year. She, [00:16:00] um, actually basically saw it as an opportunity to be healthier and actually ended up, you know, getting very quite into shape during it and had to actually, I think she ended up making a whole new dress in the end for the Wellington show. We definitely definitely made a new dress because the other one just didn't fit her anymore because, well, when you're, you know, spending two rehearsals a week and each one's over an hour long and you're dancing in six inch heels for that whole hour, it's, [00:16:30] you know, fantastic exercise. So when you first start rehearsing, do you Are you in heels at that point or No, generally, when you start out because you want people to be able to learn the dance move without killing themselves or start in flats, Um, just you know, your trainers, because it's been such a long time since most people have been in their heels, especially for all the guys who are in the show. The women, it's obviously a different matter, but, um, start off just in your trainers, and that's generally a good indicator of when you should start [00:17:00] training for your heels. So, um, what? I was doing what I was told to do, um, was just wear them around doing your housework at home, cooking dinner, then six inches taller than normal. And, yeah, I'm sure that gave my flatmates a few, um, shocks. It must give you quite a different perspective. You know, being six inches higher than Oh, yeah, it's very odd because, um, especially when I was growing up, I was always a very, very small kid. I didn't [00:17:30] go until seventh form, and then I caught up to everyone else. And being that much taller than anyone is very, very odd to me. It's, um Yeah, it's almost like you're walking around on stilts, but you get used to it quite quickly unless you have to run up and downstairs. And how do your feet cope? Um, generally fine until the end of the night. Um, the biggest problem for me was when we were in Wellington at the Opera house and [00:18:00] my dressing room was the one at the top, and there were a lot of stairs to go out from the stage up to the dressing room and back down again. When you've got about three minutes to do a costume change, Um, yeah, it got to the point where I was like, I'm just going to have to take these off and hope that the lacs don't undo themselves while I'm gone, because I thought I'd kill myself running down the stairs. Whereas when you're at the centre, it's all on one level, which is much, much handier doing that whole transformation into a new persona. [00:18:30] Do you? Do you find your personality changes as well? I think it's a lot like wearing a mask for a lot of people because, um, or even after my family told me they didn't recognise me, my mom said she only recognised me because of the dress. You find yourself probably a little bit more relaxed than you would be otherwise and you know, more inclined to go towards the drama, and I sort of when you, when you put [00:19:00] on any costume, it changes how you feel. But something that's that big a transformation. It sort of gives you. It's almost like a feeling of freedom to do what you want for the sake of the entertainment. Is that to me? That's what drag, especially for Queen of the whole universe is it's about the performance and about the art and the drama of it. But, um, for me, the biggest point in the transformation is this the first time, [00:19:30] um, I was running a little bit late, just with me getting ready. I'd bought a pair of eyelashes and one of them was broken and they were very big eyelashes. So I spent a very long time in makeup with them trying to fix that. Um, and then we had our I was running so late that when we had the final rehearsal on the stage, which is supposed to be the final dress rehearsal, everyone's supposed to be ready or nearly ready. I was. My makeup was half done. I had one eyelash on, and I was only wearing my jeans surrounded by everyone else, pretty much in full drag. [00:20:00] So I just remember running full speed down the stairs, got my makeup done, ran back up to my dressing room. I didn't even have a chance to look in a mirror while I got dressed. I had Pia who was with me. I didn't have a corset at that point, so I actually had a waste duct taped in, which sounds a lot more painful than it was. But then I got my dress on all my Julia on, grabbed my wig, turned around, looked at the mirror and just sort of stopped because I just couldn't recognise [00:20:30] myself. It's just such a It's like a shock, seeing that you can look so different. It's very, very unusual feeling. I don't think I can really explain anything that's similar to it. You mentioned about the diverse nature of the people in rehearsal and the participants, and I'm wondering, Had you ever been in a situation where there were such a range of people? And and [00:21:00] I'm thinking not only in terms of gender and sexuality, but also age. Is it quite unusual? Yeah, um, it is quite unusual. I mean, there the, um, oldest person in the show, I think, was in his in his sixties when I joined. And it was just for me what I found amazing was meeting a lot of people who fought, fought for equality and hearing their stories. And you know what a lot of people my age take for granted these days that we wouldn't have [00:21:30] if it wasn't for them. I just found it's amazing. I'd never have met them otherwise. And it's just I feel very honoured to have been able to speak to those people. But that also must work the other way around Where, Um, I think it's probably quite unusual to have that kind of intergenerational thing happening for older people being able to interact with the younger people. It's a really real pity that especially within our community, when our community is so close that there is such a divide. Um, and I know there is a little bit [00:22:00] of I always want to say animosity and you know, people who think that young people just take what we have for granted, and then there are very There are definitely the young people who think that we're undervalued or that, um, people don't respect us because we haven't had to fight um as much. And I think that's just a huge pity we don't have any room for that kind of [00:22:30] disagreement. And I think that everyone should, you know, have try and befriend anyone who they meet. And, you know, you can always learn something from someone new. Why do you think it works so well with the queen of the whole universe? Then why? Why is this special in terms of bringing all these people together? I think we all have a united goal. Um, and because it's all about something that is just so much fun. I mean, it's kind of hard to [00:23:00] be upset about it. Um, and because it is all about self expression and freedom and yeah, it's just such a positive atmosphere. I think it's actually quite hard to be negative when you're involved with it. So moving from the rehearsal period and then into the theatre environment Had you had you ever been in a theatre environment before, you know, like backstage. And, um, [00:23:30] not for a long time, um, in school, I had been involved with some, um, productions backstage. I did, you know, a V work and things a little bit, Um, but never anywhere near nothing that big. And the centre is huge, and I didn't quite realise how many people were going to be in the audience until Jonathan told us on the night that there were nearly 2000 people sitting out there, which is a little bit of a shock. You know, when you're standing on the other side of the curtain and [00:24:00] you can just hear this, it's halfway between a roar and a murmur just of people talking, and it's very yeah, I don't know. It was quite scary While the curtain was down when I found as soon as the curtain went up that fear just vanished because you can't actually see anything. You just see this big black wall. But do you feel some kind of energy coming from? Yeah, you do. Um, people who've done the show before [00:24:30] and done other stage work always told me how the audience calls to you. And I thought it just sounded, you know, one of those rubbish kind of things that people say that Jonathan was saying, Yeah, be careful or you'll fall off the front of the stage and you do find yourself and I noticed during the show that the line was at one point everyone was in the line and the line on the night of the show. It was much closer to the front of the stage than it had been in any of the rehearsals, and you would find yourself being pulled closer [00:25:00] to the front just by the energy of it all. I think it's not that you want to be the centre of attention. It's just that that's how it works. When you're on the stage, it's it's very difficult to explain. Yeah, when you first got into the theatre before the performance and you first stepped out on that stage, was that a bit of a mind shift? You know, going from like rehearsal space to suddenly you're on a stage and rather than a looking at a wall you're actually looking [00:25:30] at Yeah, well, because we've been rehearsing in the community hall, the Grey Community Hall and moving from that which is, you know, just about the same size as our stage. And that's it, um, into the actual, um auditorium. And you suddenly realise that it's real. You know that it's almost happening and that it's actually there's no such a big thing. That's yeah, very, you know, a bit of a kick when [00:26:00] you know you've got a couple of things you need to finish. I think everyone had a couple of things that aren't quite ready until the day. I know. When I was in Wellington, um, my head gear had lost some of its paint. And on the day I had an emergency mission out to the Mita 10 to buy some pink spray paint to respray my whole hair almost because it was flaking off the ball. What are the, um, tech [00:26:30] rehearsals like the tech rehearsal is a little bit odd for someone who hasn't been work through before, because they, quite often you'll start to do something and then they'll stop you so that they can work out the lighting or they'll start something. But that's the only part that the lights need to rehearse. So then you'll be on to the next part of the show. It's very much not about the cast for a tech rehearsal. Um, although generally, when we had the tech rehearsal we had, I think it was. We had several hours, so we had the tech rehearsal and then we had our regular [00:27:00] rehearsal. After that, did you find it was a lot of information to take in in terms of, you know, all the technical sides of things and the different aspects of the theatre, or they actually did a really good job of keeping anything too technical away from the cast. Basically, we got the information that we needed, and not too much more than that, because there's no point, you know, you worrying about things you don't need to worry about. Um, [00:27:30] we didn't even need to have too many marks on the stage, because by that point you knew where you were in relation to everybody else. And it was just translating from the hall onto the stage, which, you know, took a few little tweaks with Sarah the choreographer. But, you know, it was all I think it was quite a lot easier than I thought it might be. Do you think it was? Did you perceive an increase in kind of stress [00:28:00] levels? And I mean, were people getting kind of touchy, and I think some people might have, um I didn't really notice too much. Um, but I was mostly just too excited about the whole thing. Um, but on the night. Everyone is just even before the show. They're already in this amazing mood. I remember before the kitten went up in Auckland, they were playing the warm up music to the crowd, and we were all standing on the other side of the kitten in our formation, ready to start. [00:28:30] And, um, I think it was glee songs. And almost everyone is standing there lip singing. You know, there's very overblown dramatic drag acts going on on the other side of the but in complete silence because you couldn't make a noise. You couldn't step too heavily or anything. It was just Yeah, very unusual, very entertaining. And I think it just sort of helped to set the mood a bit. Getting that number of performers, uh, prepared just in terms of makeup and stuff. That must [00:29:00] be a real yeah. Um, the girls from Phoenix do an amazing job trying to get getting through everybody. It takes hours to get everyone through. I think they had three makeup calls and everyone you You were set for the time you had to arrive. And when you were being done and I was in the last call, So, um, by that point. There were all these other people who were ready, and I was not ready, but yeah. So what does that? What does that getting [00:29:30] makeup on? Involve? What? What do they do? Um, it's a bit of a process, because they have they bring in, you know, a huge team of girls. Um, and first off, you know, they have your foundation, and then they block your eyebrows, which basically they glue them down and then put makeup over the top so you turn into a completely blank canvas and you see all these people with it's almost like they've got no facial features except for their eyes and their mouth. And it's very unusual. Um, [00:30:00] and of course, for the men, they have to cover any shadow you might have or you might be going to have in the next sort of couple of hours. And then from there on, it's building up, you know, drawing on eyebrows and your makeup. Auckland. We had these stick on sequinned things under our eyes, and they were a bit interesting into the stage lights. You got these little sparkles going on? Yeah, it's a bit of a process. Everyone had to bring their own eyelashes [00:30:30] in terms of preparing yourself. Did you? I mean, like, were you shaving, like, for your legs and and and preparing your body that way? Yeah, you kind of had to, um, you can get away away from that a little bit by wearing a lot of stockings and tights. I know there's a lot of people wear like a pair of dancers, tights and then two pairs of stockings over the top of that just to avoid having to shave their legs. But, you know, you're probably going to have to shave your arms. [00:31:00] You're definitely gonna shave under your arms unless you're going to be wearing a shirt top with sleeves. But I don't think anyone really did that. Um, because you're trying to create the illusion, and it's all part of that. Yeah, I couldn't do the multiple stocking thing. It was just too slippery inside my shoes for me. I didn't want to risk it. Hey, so the show happens. And, um, what are your feelings? When [00:31:30] when you're on the show, How how's it? Uh, it's all a little bit of a blur. Um, I just remember standing on the stage. You know, when we got the final stop falling around, you're about to go on. Um the way it was set up, we had the cast was all split. So there were a small number of us, I think 12, maybe maybe 14 of us on the stage to start with. Um So it was half boys and half girls and split standing back [00:32:00] to back. So I was standing there staring at the back of the stage for our opening number, which was a man's world split into two halves, half sung by the boys and then half sung by the girls and standing there staring at the back of the stage. Um, I was getting really nervous because I knew everything that was going on behind me, um, that the boys are doing and you could hear the audience and just standing there going, I really hope I don't miss my queue. And as soon as I stepped [00:32:30] around and it just sort of all fell into place because you know the choreography so well, by that point, if I hear some of the songs, I almost fall into it Now, um, that it just flows and then once you've realised that you're not going to make a huge mistake, it just you can relax with it and enjoy it and just get into it. It's very high energy. It's very, very exhausting. But it's a lot of fun and you [00:33:00] don't sleep that night generally because you just got too much going on in your head. And I remember when we went to Wellington, there was two after parties and the second one which didn't start until one or two in the morning or something like that, and we were all supposed to be flying home the next day. It was, Yeah, that's quite a neat thing, having an after party where the performers go out there and that was amazing and just mingle. Yeah, getting to meet the audience. Um, [00:33:30] it was quite funny because when I walked out of my dressing room and everyone was standing in the corridor before we went on stage and Jonathan just goes points at me and he says that one, that's the one everyone's going to think is a girl and yeah, I was like, Oh, I'm not sure if I should take that as a compliment or not. But then afterwards, when we met the audience, I actually had a few people come up to me and go. Excuse me, Are you a boy? And there was one woman. She goes, You are a boy, aren't you? And I was like, Yes, I am. She's like, Oh, great. [00:34:00] Can you come and tell my husband we have a bit? He was a little bit upset about that, but, um, yeah, my family all thought I looked exactly like my cousin who came to the show except about a foot taller than her. It must be really neat to have that support from the family. Yeah, my family has been amazing. Um, yeah, they're very, very lucky to have them. My dad is actually, um, [00:34:30] my dad was actually very keen for me to do Act two this year When I said that I wanted to, um so he's actually sponsoring me for it. So his or his company is sponsoring me so that we can actually afford to do these things because obviously I'm, um just very recently out from being a student and I'm an apprentice hairdresser, so I don't earn that much money, but um, yeah. Helping helping out of it. And the family is all sort of pulling together. So what is the concept for your [00:35:00] Act two this year? Can you tell me that, um, I miss Spain this year, So, um yes, it's all very. There are a lot of frills involved, some very, very big dresses planned, and we have all the fabric for them. It's just a matter of putting it together. Um, I don't know. I can't really give away too much about the actual performance, but yeah, five minutes is a very long time in some ways and a very short amount of time. In others, it's It's one [00:35:30] of those kind of time frames where you just have to hit it right at the start, don't you? You don't have time to really develop an idea. Yeah, um, some of the best performances from what I I feel from what I've seen are the ones that do have a little bit of a storyline going on or a feel that goes through them. Um, and it's just trying to create that in five minutes, but without it being too too much of the same thing, you need to have changes. You need to have costume [00:36:00] changes because the audience loves that. I mean, the favourite. One of the greatest ones I saw was, um I was helping out with Actually was Miss France and then watching the video. And I think he had seven costume changes. And that's not including the backup dancers. So it's just it gives it another dimension to be able to do those sorts of things and to have sets that are built. And, yeah, I seem to be trying to rope my uncles and things to helping build sets. They're all booked tickets, [00:36:30] so hopefully they'll help out. So so where do you get your biggest kick from? Is it in the kind of the creativity in terms of like, creating stuff before the show? Is it at the show? Is it after the show? Where where does that come for you? It's probably at or after the show. I think leading up to it it's still great, you know, building everything and coming up with all these ideas is a lot of fun. But I just think getting that reward for it almost just, you know, having people cheer is [00:37:00] If you've never had, like an audience cheering at you before, it's just the most. That's a very energising kind of feeling. It just makes you feel very like all of your hard work is paid off and it's valued and these people appreciate it. You know, they might not necessarily know how much hard work you've put in, but it's got value. How do you come down from such a, um, intense experience? Yeah, I did find afterwards I was I felt a bit lost. Um, I've [00:37:30] used to having these rehearsals so often and seeing this group of people every week or twice a week, and then it's just all over. It's a bit of a sad thing, you know, saying goodbye to everyone. Um, but, you know, that's when the rest of your life suddenly comes rushing back and all those things you've neglected over the last few months, you need to sort them out. Yeah, Or maybe that's just me. I've always got something to do, but yeah, I know it is quite a sad feeling once it's all over. [00:38:00] Which is why I think this year is going to be a bit difficult for a lot of people. And what are your thoughts on on it being the last, uh, queen of the whole universe? It is sad. It's an amazing show, and it's I think it's probably it's reached a lot of people. It's raised a lot of money. Um, I really hope that something carries on in some form, but, um, yeah, I understand. It's, you know, it's a lot of work for someone to put in. Oh, it's a lot of work for everyone to put in, but especially [00:38:30] for, um, Jonathan to do. I mean, I can't imagine how much of his time is devoted to this months, months and months, but yeah, it will be sad. But 10 years is amazing. And, you know, the amount of money that has been raised is just staggering. Really. If you had the opportunity on that last performance to, uh, address the crowd in some way, is there anything that you would want [00:39:00] to say to them? Um, I'd want them to take the feeling that they get from the show that feeling of joy and acceptance, and there's a huge feeling of love that goes with it and to keep that with them, you know, don't leave it behind and treat everyone else that they come into with that same compassion and happiness that the show brings to people like, I think it's it's amazing just the [00:39:30] way that this hugely diverse group of people and the hugely diverse audience all come together for this one night and everyone has an amazing time, and I just wish, you know the rest of people's lives could be like that.

IRN: 542
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/qwu_seamas_gormley.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003944
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089238
TITLE: Seamas Gormley - Queen of the Whole Universe
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Seamas Gormley
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Queen of the Whole Universe; Seamas Gormley; arts; drag; performance; theatre
DATE: 1 July 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Seamas talks about performing in the Queen of the Whole Universe beauty pageant.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm Seam sc here. Um, I've been involved in two, queen of the whole universes. Um, the first one in 2010. November 2010 and then again in Wellington March last year. Um, I felt quite to the queen of the whole universe by accident. Um, a friend was doing it, and he got he was getting emails to go to this thing and I went, Oh, that looks interesting. Maybe I'll just go along and help help out back stage preferably. And I went to the first meeting, and [00:00:30] before I realised I was actually involved and they were telling me to choose which country I was doing. So, um, shortly after that, I became Miss South Africa. Um, first Miss South Africa and my dad, and I've actually decided to, um, take part again this year. It's for the final show, so I'm looking forward to doing that. Um, going into this show was absolutely exciting. Terrifying, lots of different emotions running through my head. Um, but mainly it was [00:01:00] just, um I did it for two particular reasons. Nothing to do with, um one to, build up a new friends and all the rest and associates and also to have a bit of fun and just do something outside outside the square and achieved that in both accounts. I had a wonderful time. Um, initially at the start, I had no idea what to expect. It was all very OK. What's happening now? And as as as time passed, I started to get them a wee bit more feel for the actual thing and [00:01:30] realised that other people, even though they had done it on a number of occasions where not that far on as I was, you know, not any different from me. They were still nervous, too. And I said about what they were doing. But it was a really wonderful experience. Um, and I would never not done it. Now I'm glad I did do it again. That's the way I want to participate in the final show just so I can do a little better, like the first show looking back on it. Now, I just know that I could have done it better, you know, the [00:02:00] inexperienced show. But, um, I gave it a good effort and had a really wonderful time before the Queen of the whole universe. Had you done any kind of performance? Uh, no. I did a school play back in my teenage years, which wasn't a very big success, but that was it. So I had no really experience at performing, and it was just terrifying, you know? And But I really And the part of the show I really enjoyed was just was really supportive. And they said, Oh, you'll be all fine. [00:02:30] Once it all starts and the music starts, she'll be It'll go. Really? Well, Well, so and I did like, you know, I was really impressed. I just I just impressed myself. I was quite surprised I was. Yeah, you did. You know, um, but I just couldn't help it with all the do it without all the support of the people in the show. You know, they were really, really wonderful. Initially, I had my doubts, you know, um, and I did speak to Jonathan, and I said, I don't know any of these people. I knew two people when I first started. So, um, and he said, Oh, once you [00:03:00] get into the rehearsals and get into the rehearsals proper, you'll get to know them. And because you're so interacting and doing all the practise for the dancers, it'll be easy. You know, it'll be good. And I did you know, I was really, really surprised. Initially, I thought I found them. I My initial impression was that they were all very cliquey. And all these people knew each other from the previous years, and they know each of them. I don't know anybody, you know. So, um, but it takes a little bit of time to get to know them. And, um, again, I. I learned a lot of, um a lot of skills. [00:03:30] And I've met heaps and heaps of people and some of them I'll be friends forever, you know, just really. And that's really what really surprised me. It was a whole life and enhance the experience, you know? I must say, you know, so, yeah, I really enjoyed it. I did it. And so in the first time that you were involved, were there many new people in that year? Um, I think there was two or three like, you know, And so that helped that that I wasn't the only new person. There was a few new people um, And again, they were [00:04:00] on the same par as me, like So it was good to have that acknowledgement that there were other people there who were new to the show as well. And they had their own reasons for joining the show and taking part. But yeah, it was a really good experience, you know? So had you done drag before? No, no, I'm not a very pretty one, I must say. But no, it was it wasn't to to dress up or perform. It was just to be part of a big show. And I had a good [00:04:30] reputation. I had been on the go, um, go for eight or nine years. So I had built up a good reputation. A lot of people out there knew about it. Um, and to be a part of, that was just the main thing. It wasn't dressing dressing down, or it was more of being a part of a big show and, you know, and say like, Oh, I did that, you know, or be a part of that. It wasn't No. I had no idea of dressing up in drag or whatever. I was quite I don't know how I was going to look at, um, But I remember one time on just before one of the shows [00:05:00] was passing somebody in in the corner at the back of the show and they said, Is that you and I had to take a double take after I'd got all my make up and all the other stuff on they were like, Oh, is that you? You know, so, yeah, total transformation. You know, if my mother could see me now sort of thing, you know, But, um, I think it's important to give it, give it a go, and, um, just give yourself that comfort. And that was the really thing. I learned from it, you know, And most people got out of me just that I'd done something I totally hadn't [00:05:30] done before, and yeah, yeah, it's always good to, um, go beyond those boundaries, you know? So can you take me through that process of having never done Dr before? You know, in terms of like, how does one start initially? Because, um, I was one of a few people who hadn't done it before, and again, it was even, like, um, one of the nights Kevin and John took us out to another evening and actually practised walking like a woman. [00:06:00] And that was that seems really weird, like, you know, Ah, you know, they do walk differently. And it was actually just going around in a circle or whatever, just and practising, um, walking like a woman and just different. Just different steps. What is the difference? They set their feet down differently than us guys. So even just simple little things that you had to adjust, how you walked and how you and then actually getting yourself in high heels. That was another experience altogether too. So, yeah, I'd [00:06:30] never done that before too. Like, I think I might have dressed up when I was a cater on or, you know, as you do, um, a long time ago. But nothing, um, that, um right there. So, yeah, that was another new experience, because initially, the the you know, we were practising the dances in the hall like, you know, and we were all in our ordinary clothes and trainers and all the rest and shoes. And then gradually, you know, when you get to that stage, you actually have to come with shoes on as well and practise the routines. [00:07:00] It was Oh, my God. Like, you know, they weren't ladies shoes. Um, but most people are actually quite surprised that I had to knock on them quite easily, As if I had been doing it for ages. So, OK, no, no, I assured them I had. I had I was new to this sort of thing, but did you have, um, any kind of, like, drag mother or somebody that was helping you to kind of take you down the path of actually a transformation Going from yourself to a persona? Um, not [00:07:30] as such. Like, um, I think it was just a gradual thing. Um, and I think just be whenever else wearing Drago, if it's just a gradual process, I don't think there are actually any sets that will, you know, do this and do it this way. I think I just walking was the main thing. And once that master that, um, it wasn't too bad, you know? Um, no, I don't think there was. I don't think there was such You know what you do. But I think I was just learning all the dance routines and high heels and a dress, you know, and it was OK in the hall [00:08:00] environment there. But once you got moved to the actual fear, like it so big, you know, you know, it's just, um it's just that step further. But it was, um it's scary, but it's exciting. At the same time, I think, Oh, wow, Look, we're here, and it's as it got nearer the time you got more and more excited about it and think, Oh, cool, it's finally happening, you know? And it was just he just got carried away in the buzz of a lot of people as well. They were getting excited about it, too. Like so it was really just [00:08:30] there was he had those little nerves at the back, you know? But at the same time he had Hey, this is going to be cool. This is really enjoyable. Like so, um um, yeah, I really enjoyed it. And I did part two. that, too, as well Again. Rather than just do a part of the show, I wanted to really launch myself into the show and no keep busy, you know, as it were. And, um and I just I loved all the people on the show. I think I think the one thing that I really enjoyed was just just before [00:09:00] you were about to go on stage. I was out of the bag and I was Oh, good luck and well done, and you'll be fine. And it was just that sort of. We were all part of a big, huge team rather than just individuals. It was just We're all doing it together, and we're all going to have a good time and give the give the people a good show like So That was a really good thing, too, as well. So, yeah, Can you take me through step by step, The kind of formation of your country persona? Yeah. Well, as I say, I think the hardest part was actually to, [00:09:30] um, choose which country to do. I think Ireland, um people say, Oh, do Ireland. And I think somebody was already doing Ireland. And the only other one I wanted to do was France, because French, um and somebody was doing France and oh, my God. And my friends, one of my friends was South African, so they said, Oh, what to do because we initially checked. Um, what countries are available? Like, you know, two South African. So they said, Oh, do South African South Africa. OK, Why not? Um, [00:10:00] initially, the main main dress that we were on, um, at the start of the show, Um, that was the colour Red have been chosen. So that show was purple this year. I think this year it's going to be red and gold or whatever. So once and you could really dress, um, choose a dress any, you know, I, I think I had I had to split up the state or something so you could walk easier. But, um, when you actually got to the show and all the different varieties of dresses, you know, you've got a colour. But, you know, everyone had their own idea of [00:10:30] how did you choose your address? Um, initially, I got Well, I got the material. I got lovely material, shiny material, and I think it was in hawick. And once I got the material, um, I went to a designer. Well, actually, I had problems because I had two people actually had it back out of doing the dress. Helped me do the dress. So I was a bit like, Oh, what am I going to do? Um, So once I got this, he was a friend of a friend. Um, she said, Oh, yeah, and she just I think she had the really idea [00:11:00] of how it would look on me. So she had a really good idea and, yeah, quite a good dress, Having never been in a dress before. Did you have any idea about how to describe what you were looking for to a designer or how How did that come? Well, I had an initial idea, like, you know, length and what it looked like. And, um, I think she had a lot of suggestions to to have a little sort of glove sort of type things. Um, and I sort of went with it and thought, Oh, yeah, that's a good idea. [00:11:30] And not that I was being easily led, but her ideas were quite I think she was had a lot of experience making dresses for guys as well, So I think she had a lot of ideas, and I said I went along with a lot of her ideas and yeah, that sounds good. And you know, within reason, as long as it made me look. OK. Um, so that was the dress and then natural. Um, um, natural concrete and the head gear. We had a lot of problems with the headgear. That's it's probably something I would probably do better the next time. [00:12:00] Um um, because it was quite a lot of people had a lot of good ideas for, um, their head gear. Um, depending on what country they had chosen, if it was kind of, like Spain that it was pretty easy or China or whatever. Um, and I had a few ideas with South Africa to more traditional and spears and sort of South African flag, And they had recently had the soccer World Cup in Africa, too. So I had a few soccer balls there as well, like so, um, just going with it. But, um, it was modified near then, but, [00:12:30] um, yeah, it went well. And I had a a little two piece, sort of like safari type design, whatever. And looked ok, you know, um, what was it like? Um, having those kind of discussions about kind of fabrics and designs. If you've never done this before actually going into a shop and saying I want this kind of thing or Yeah, it was, Yeah, there are bars and mum because, um, actually, um, I don't know if you obviously don't know me. Um, I used [00:13:00] to was married at one stage, and I've got a 12 year old daughter. So, um, she was actually with me when I was actually bought the shiny material purple, shiny and a bit embarrassed for her. But, um, I just said to the lady, like we're doing this. I've never done this sort of thing before And they were all quite excited. Oh, yeah. You must bring photographs of it again and let us know how you get on. So they were really, really excited at me doing this. And I I don't know if they were aware of what the show was or what, um, audience had catered for, but, um, I just, um they were quite excited. You know, something coming [00:13:30] in, buy material to make a dress, you know, But, um yeah, it was, um there was a lot of things I hadn't done before. Even buying shoes. I hate shoes And a shopping like that was an experience too, you know. OK, One other thing in me, but, um, you know, you learn to overcome those little obstacles and get on with the show and just yeah, it's just all life skills, like doing all those things that you haven't done before. Were there specific shops that a lot of [00:14:00] people from Queen of the Universe went to so that people, the shop assistants already knew what? Yeah, there was. And the shop I went to, I think it's called Ronnie's. And there was especially if they hadn't done that before. Like, you recommend Oh, have it going here. Like not just for the people who like Jonathan. I recommend certain shops, but even people on the show, they say, Oh, go here. Oh, I got them here, you know, Try here like, you know, I think it just and that's as you got to know, the people on the show. They they were full of ideas themselves, like So, [00:14:30] um, but the the people I did get the shoes off. Um, they had been to the show, and they were used to people coming in every year to do the show, and they were aware of the show, and I think they actually went to the show themselves like so, um, they were very supportive. And it's good to have a lot of people out there supporting the show and who are aware of the show and what it involves, Um, to be part of that as well. So yeah, that's that's encouraging. What about your daughter? How did how did she react? Um, well, she's [00:15:00] still getting to know sync. Um, she's learning. Um, but she's got a very special dad, and he does things, um, like that. But, um, I think she's she would have come to the show. Only my friend couldn't come to the show. So, um and it would be nice if she come to the show in July. Um, I think I think it's important to be open. I I've always been open with my daughter, and whatever I do or choose to do or not to do, Or, um, I'm pretty, [00:15:30] you know, this is me, you know, And, um yeah, she really had a good time. And, um, she saw photographs of me and all the rest, and she even shot me a TV because they film part of the the rehearsals or whatever. And what was it? Close up. Sorry. And she said, Oh, Dad, I saw you on TV. I was standing. I was writing. We're sort of this sort of permanent formation. Of course I'm right at the front. Um, so she's Oh, and there was me dancing with high heels on socks. A nice combination. [00:16:00] Not very fashionable, but, um yeah, she she had a good laugh at him. Dad, I saw you V last night. We recorded it. OK, so, yes, I I'm a TV star now, you know, But, um yeah, it must be quite fun going shopping with her. Yeah, she's, um Yeah, I think she's, um, getting to Yeah, some different. And, um well, I, I don't regard myself as different. I regard myself as an individual. You know, it's I think I know that's what I like about people. Just, [00:16:30] um yeah, just like, you know, everybody's everybody's different. And, um and it's the one thing I learned from the show and all the rest, And I really my sort of philosophy in life is to allow other people to accept who you are and your individuality but at the same time learn to accept them as well. They're different. We're all different. And I don't like that word different. We're all individual. I think it's, um I just like every individual and that's yeah, that's my philosophy and and life as it is, you [00:17:00] know, just everybody's different and just accept people for who they are and all the rest. So, yeah, had you ever been in an environment of a large group of gay and queer people before? No. And it's probably shielded initially, but, um, I didn't really look at it in that sense, um, of this as a a gay environment show or it's majority of people who were gay, lesbian or whatever. I don't really I just looked [00:17:30] at them as you know, it sounds really naive or whatever. There was people like, and there's people on the show and some people look, I don't know if the lesbian, straight or whatever they were friends. They became friends, and that's, you know, it's I have no, you know who's straight or, you know, it's all just people like, you know, I see them as people I don't and I don't see people as in being in the gay environment or the straight environment, or I think we're all [00:18:00] part of the bigger picture. Like, I don't see myself being in a gay environment as such. Like even though I am, Um I'm just an individual. And my gayness is only a certain aspect of my character. Like, I have lots of horror qualities like, you know that again. This is just part of it, you know? And that's just part of my makeup or character like, and that's part of what makes me me, you know? So what was it like the first time you [00:18:30] were transformed into a diva? How did you feel? Um, is that me? I don't know. Um yeah, I think, um, I did. Initially I transformed myself gradually at home without actually, you know, showing because I'd got the shoes and the dress and all the rest. OK? And I think I showed my neighbour and she went, Oh, my God. You know. So I did initially [00:19:00] before launch myself on the general public. Um, but yeah, um, I think it's good. It's good to see yourself in a different way or, um, yeah, a really good experience? Um, um I don't know. Some people didn't even recognise it. But I think after the show, when we had done the show in Auckland, um, we were able to come out after because they were after after show entertainment. And this guy I used to know, like, a long time ago. I said, How are you going? I said, I know who [00:19:30] are you had no idea who I was like, you know, I said, Oh, remember me, You know, da da da da. Oh, really? It was like that was the transverse man. You know, if you didn't know me, you wouldn't have known. It was. And then afterwards I came out with my cities on, um and then Oh, ok. Hey, I was just hearing a little bit, you know, I was totally Yeah. It was good to see that people's reaction. Oh, really? You know, it's, um Yeah, I think it's good to, um, do something different. Show [00:20:00] yourself in a different light. Just just get out of your comfort zone, like you know. So I think, Yeah, I think it worked. Do you think that your personality changes as you transform into this? Um I don't I don't I don't know. That's a difficult question, Um, to a point. But, um, I think we can all change a personality. We can change a personality depending on what group of people around. You know, um, we may act differently at work than [00:20:30] we do a night out in the toilet on Friday night or whatever. We'll act differently with our family. You know, I think we all act differently. You know, we all have different personas. Um, depending on the environment, we're operating in, like, you know. So, um, will that guy female change? Um, I probably did change a little, but not too much. Like, I hope. I still think I had my own personal. You know, I think my own personal has to come through. Obviously, you look, you look [00:21:00] slightly different, like obviously, but, um, yeah, I think I'm still I still showed me as a person. I think that's what I It's important, you know? So flash me forward to, uh we We've done the rehearsals. We're just about to or we're just moving into the theatre. What is that like? Have you ever been in a theatre backstage before? And not, not as as being on a show like I've been in a theatre when it's empty and been in a big theatre. Um, that that's a whole [00:21:30] different step, because it gets one thing. It gets serious like you have. Oh, my God, this is it. You move away from that comfort of rehearsing in the hall every week or whatever, and then suddenly they're saying that final week before the show, it's like you going to the centre, um, on the Monday and it's like all week, like, um, that's a whole new step, you know, Um and it's quite, um, I wouldn't say scary, but yeah, it sort of brings it home. It's Oh, it's coming. [00:22:00] It's the show is about the, um, not a few days the end of the week and we'll be on. We'll be live. Um, yeah, it's quite exciting. Yeah, it it's a whole new step. Um, but, um, yeah, just It's just again. It's learning to be backstage and seeing how that, um, the rehearsals transport themselves to a huge auditorium. And, um, yeah, good experience, like, you know, and yeah, it's just a lot bigger. And you realise how big a thing is Oh, my God. It's so big. [00:22:30] Oh, my God. You know, um, but, um, yeah, I think, um, again, it's this experience. I've just It's like you just learn new things and keep learning. And that's the day I stop learning, You know, it's time to go. I want to learn new things and just, um Yeah, I think I think. And that's the advice I give anybody. New people wouldn't mind doing that. Yeah, I I'd really encourage any new people to do it. Um, because I can do it. You can do it. You know, I would be, um, offering new people, [00:23:00] um, taking part and building up that new I saw a bit building confidence, like will, you know, and really performing and and getting people to enjoy what you're what what show? You're performing, you know, So it must be such an interesting experience. Um, in the rehearsal where you were performing to a wall, and then suddenly you're on the stage performing to 1500 seats. Yeah. That first time being on stage would be Yeah, yeah. Um, [00:23:30] yeah. And I think it is you. You do. Once the music starts, you do sort of because you have done really work really hard at the Behe. And and I have to, um, really put my hand up for the the lady who did the the choreographer. Um, like she did a really good job like we were just a lot of us were just novices and no idea of dancing at all. So she really put us through our pieces like and I was I worked really well [00:24:00] at the end, and at the end, we just knew exactly where to go and what to do and all the rest. But as you say once that music you don't realise, I think it's just once that music starts and that familiar music, you just you just get on with it like, you know, it's just, um I know you're aware of the audience, but it's you're performing. You're enjoying the show. You're just getting into the show and you forget to worry. Oh, what are they going to think of what they say? Um, and sometimes it's like see [00:24:30] your faces like, Oh, God, no idea who they are. But, um, I think it just you just get into the show and Um, yeah. Just just it carries you away. Like, really? And just having the fun with your fellow, um, performers? Um, yeah, I think it's It's just enjoying it, like, you know, And that's what John's Jonathan's always impressed on us. Just enjoy yourself. You know, just forget you know where you need to be and all the rest. Just enjoy yourself, and that takes over and you need to remember [00:25:00] where to go and where to stand and all the rest. But, um, yeah, it's just I really you spark off each each other in the show, like and that's that's how you really get to enjoy, like, you know, Yeah, it does make the most of it, you know? Yeah. So throughout the whole experience of queen of the whole universe, what has been the most memorable part for you? Um, just the people just, um I'm a people person, and I love people I love. [00:25:30] I love talking as well, but, um, I think it was mainly just the people that II I got to know on the show. Like, you know, um, and I've taken a lot of happy memories away, and there'll be a certain amount of those people will do the show again. But just just the camaraderie behind the show and just even those down down time while we were free to, um, you know, it was just just they just felt part of the one family. And that's what I liked about it. Just the whole behind [00:26:00] stage and just being part of the one team and just that's their excitement. And, um, lots of different lovely people, just lots of personalities there. But yeah, we all, um, move forward for the one focus, you know, and, um yeah, it worked really well, and I'm looking forward to doing it all again. Well, coming up as the as the last queen of the whole universe. What? What do you think about that? Um I don't know if I can say I'm sad or whatever, but it's just, um [00:26:30] I think some things do take their natural course. And I think you can, um, over, um, play a certain role or, um, show whatever. I think things do need to come to a natural end, and and and I've just been lucky enough to be a part of the second last show and the last show? Um, yeah. Um, I think you can carry things on too long. You know, Um, and it's probably was AAA reason a good decision to say, OK, [00:27:00] this will be our last show. Like, um, so, Yeah, I, I I've just been I've been glad to be a part of it. Do you think you will continue on with kind of theatrical or or dr Performances? Uh, I don't know. I don't know the answer to that question. Maybe, maybe not. It depends. Um, if things, um something comes up that, um, entices me to, um But, um, I'm not averse to say that the last time I'll be on stage, I've really enjoyed it, and I've got a lot out of it. And I think [00:27:30] I've developed my character and, um, a lot of in that short period of time, so yeah, I can I can rule it out. We wait and see.

IRN: 537
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/qwu_steve_farrow.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003943
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089237
TITLE: Steve Farrow - Queen of the Whole Universe
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Steve Farrow
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Queen of the Whole Universe; Steve Farrow; arts; performance; theatre
DATE: 10 June 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Steve talks about being one of the stage managers for the Queen of the Whole Universe beauty pageant.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Six or so years ago with my current My partner at the time, Um, he was in the show as a as a boy. Um, I went along formally just to support him. Um, I tended to just sit in the background in the rehearsals. Do nothing. Really. Um, and then suddenly I got a little job which happened to be babysitting a dog. And, uh, one of the contestants, um, had a little [00:00:30] lap dog of which I used to look after. And that was my first official role of the Queen of Show. So, um yeah, that was me. It was the first year. Was the dog part of a performance? It was, um uh, he the the contestant was actually using the dog. Um, he was Miss New Zealand at the time, and he was using the dog because it was a little white, fluffy thing. Sort of represented a sheep or lamb, so Yeah. So the dog was there basically to get used to all the people around [00:01:00] and so a lot of fun. Have you done anything like that before? Not at all. Not at all. Um uh, my closest. Anything stage wise would have been, probably when I was about nine. And I was, um, Oliver in the stage show Oliver at school, and, uh, dare I say it was horrifying. Number one, that was my one and only attempt for stage work of any form. Why was it horrifying? I mean, I just It was just I don't think it went that well, so But anyway, hey, [00:01:30] as I was young but never, never really had the inclination to to follow it through, it was just a school thing. Can you describe what it was like going to those first rehearsals where Where you'd never actually been in this kind of environment before? It was actually quite nerve wracking, um, sitting there not knowing a soul other than my partner. Um, it was a whole new group. Um, I'd recently, um, come out as as far as my sexuality was concerned, being married two kids so forth. So [00:02:00] coming into that environment, not ever really being associated with drag queen scenario, Uh, and I use that term very loosely, um, and and mixing it with the lesbian and the gay community in that form, it was actually quite scary. Um, but as I said I was there to support my partner at the time, and and, um, you know, it took probably two or three rehearsals for me to find that comfort zone. Um, but it it got there, it got there. And, um, it was it was it was [00:02:30] fun that everybody sort of stood back. And who's this guy, you know, who's this new person? He just sits there and does nothing. Now he's got a dog on his lap. So what's he doing? You know, it must be quite an interesting experience if you've never been in a large group of gay lesbian people. Totally. And, um, it was, I must say, um, very good for me. Uh, it enabled me to to accept the community in in a whole, um, it [00:03:00] enabled me to get into the community, um, to to a level where I was comfortable with. So, um, you know, it was a great help. It wasn't. I did. I had no idea at the time that that was what was gonna happen. It wasn't designed that way. It was just a great opportunity. And it opened up a few doors for me, which was great. So how much time had lapsed between you kind of coming out and and then starting with the queen of the whole, Um, probably about four years, Um, in total. Um, I had [00:03:30] a, um yeah, II. I came out as left home, came out and then sort of did my own little thing as as such. Then I met my partner at the time, and he was very out there in the context of a very friendly, open sort of a person, Um, bubbly and and he just encouraged me to get involved and and which is great, which is great. It really was one of the really nice things I think about the queen of the whole universe is that it's open to anyone. [00:04:00] So, you know, are you straight or go absolutely and and and you know, you you have to question who is straight and who is gay. You don't know, and it's not. We don't all just stand up and say, Hey, I'm gay or I'm straight or I'm a lesbian or whatever the case may be, um, the show is open to anyone. You don't have to be a gay person. You don't have to be a lesbian or or whatever. You know, it's, um if you want to be involved and and Jonathan is accepting of that, that's fine. That's great. And and that's what the whole family I know. I call [00:04:30] it a family. That's what the whole family is all about. It and it. And it's just it's just exciting to be involved in. So that first time we were looking after the lap dog, did you actually take the lap dog on stage as well? No, no, no, no. I was just It was just I was there, as I say to support my partner. Um, the dog was a little bit of a nuisance in the fact that it was running around the place. So I ended up picking it up and just holding it, and and I was just nicknamed the dog minder. And that went on for the whole that whole show. [00:05:00] Um oh, sorry. The whole rehearsal period, Um, for the six or so weeks that that went on, um, my actual role in the show that that particular year that first year, um, was in the dressing room and and that's really where it, um where it started. Um, I have never seen the show live in front. It's always I've always been in the back of the stage in some form. So, um, and looks like I'll never see it in front. [00:05:30] So what? So what was your role in the dressing rooms? Um, just again, I I was encouraged to to to stay with the boys, as you would understand. There, there, the boys. And then there's the the the girls. Right. Um, I was nominated to help the boys out with their dressing room, help them with their costumes and and get them anything they really wanted. I was, like, the go for. So this is the boys who were boys on stage and and and ironically, boys. And some of them were girls dressed up as boys. [00:06:00] So so you know, it was a mixture. So So you go I was the gofer. Yeah, Yeah. I I I'd relinquish my, um, my dog role and went to be the go for the boys for that first year. Um, and again, I. I enjoyed it immensely. I missed the fact that I actually didn't see the show improper. Well, we saw it was from TV cameras. A lot of screens, but, um so, yeah, I can imagine when you're in production. Uh, it would take a while [00:06:30] to get made up and in costume. And so you would actually be having to support those people for quite a number of years? Absolutely. And And this especially show day and And they get their, um, their costumes and they get their makeup put on and it's you can see the stress levels exaggerate immensely. And, you know, some people handle them really well. Others get really spaced out and and it and it you get to a stage that a dresser [00:07:00] can be quite comforting because you can just sit down and, you know, calm down, calm them down, or talk to them, or just help them out in any form just to take as much stress as possible away from the contestant or the or the performer. When you say spaced out, what what do they How do they? Well, they sort of go into their own zone. And I suppose it's the adrenaline pumping, knowing that suddenly the curtain is going to come up in an hour or two and they're gonna be exposed to these many hundreds of people, and [00:07:30] and a lot of them, especially the first time performers get very, very nervous about that. Um, and it's not a nerve as in hating. It's a nerve as an excitement. It's it's just wow, you know, this is just unbelievable. And it is, trust me. It is unbelievable. It must be quite weird having if if you are a new a new bee going through, having all that kind of rehearsal where you're in a kind of a private space and then suddenly to be in the theatre and thinking, 0, 1500 people are about to see what I do That's right, It's dead right? And it's it's, [00:08:00] you know, you tend to I mean, there's been occasions where you've seen guys that have struggled through the rehearsals and and you know, Jonathan's either identified some issues there or or and we've gone along and sort of comforted them and say, like, you know, you can do this. This is This is not that hard. You know, you're not the only one on this boat. There's there's another 30 plus others that are in the same boat, so you know you can do it and and you just give them the confidence that it's it's not a biggie. Hey, it's We're here to have some fun and [00:08:30] at the same time entertain as a go For what? What were the things they were getting you to get? Oh, just drinks. And, um, occasionally the button might fall off, so I'd have to run around and try and find and sewing needles and some thread and and stuff like that. So, yeah, just a little thing, like through experience. Do you find now that that you actually have all those things, like, you know, needles threads here, my current role as stage manager, Um, I tend to go Well, I think the extra mile and and, [00:09:00] you know, I will go and purchase on my own bed a few items that I have found necessary on the show night, and it might be a felt pen. Or it might be some double sided tape, and, um, it's just because they come up to you and they'll say, Oh my God, my button's falling off or my collar is sticking up, you know, so you need to help them get that stress out of their out of their mind. So because they've got a show to go on with. And as we all know, the show will go on. [00:09:30] Regardless. We've got, uh, felt pins. Uh, double sided tape. What? What are some of the other, um, highlight pens? Um, safety pins? Because stockings might have fallen down. Or or um um, belts coming off. Um, uh, we had, uh, one stage. What do we have? We had Oh, the straps on somebody's shoes actually snapped on show night and with, Oh, my God. You know, how do we fix [00:10:00] this? But good old safety pin and a bit of kiwi ingenuity. And where we go, I actually handy, man, build a slash palmer. So I'm sort of recognised as the butch man around the around the stage area. So going back to the, uh, the first year you were involved where you became a gopher from there. How did it, um, the following year? Um, the current at the time was Mark was the stage manager. Um, Ellie was stage manager call. [00:10:30] Um, but Mark did the main stage management out the back, um, with props and and getting the casting and cast on on stage and so forth. Um, I then was asked to help mark out, and there's a group of six or seven people behind the scenes shifting scenery and and and so forth and helping the contestants out with head gear. And exactly, um, so [00:11:00] that was the second year. Uh, and, uh, third year also, Um, I did that, and that was sort of gave me a a far bigger insight to actually the the backstage side of it, um, neither ever imagining that I was actually going to end up where I have ended up. Um, to be honest, it was the last thing I wanted to be involved with because of the stress you can see since the stress in Mark's, um situation in in stress [00:11:30] is a major part of the management role making sure things go right. So the first couple of years after the go role, I was sort of a stage assistant, um, and just did what I was told. Can you just define for me what the difference is between a stage manager and a stage manager call? OK, Ellie. Stage man. A call she actually calls the show, so she will call the lighting cues. She will call the music cues. Um, [00:12:00] she will actually direct me to call on a contestant at a specific time or or things of that nature. So we have a script that is basically word perfect to the minute to the second, and she calls that script by word by second by minute. And that's when precisely everything will happen. Um, as you appreciate there's so many lighting queues. There is so many, uh, changes in in scenery or or music or whatever the case may be. So everything's [00:12:30] done to a specific time. And so Allie is stage call. My role as stage manager is to sort of manage the cast, so to speak, and I get them on stage at the right time. Um, I make sure they're in the right positioning at the right time. Um, I make sure they are quiet at the right time. Easier said than done. Um, these guys and girls, um forget that they have an audience out there behind the big curtain, and [00:13:00] they're clumping around their heels and so forth. So there's just a lot of things you got to consider I have a a group of 6 to 8 helpers, and, um, I have a a lady Jan. She's on the other side of the stage. I'm on normally on, um, left hand side. Jan's on the right hand side, and she's my second night assistant, so to speak. So she she controls one side of the stage. I control the other side of the stage, [00:13:30] but at the end of the day, I call it to what happens and, um, how how it happens. You mentioned just before that, um, you could see the really big stresses when Mark was doing the job. And I'm wondering what are the biggest stresses? Well, it's it. It's it's really just organising and having everybody organised at the right time. Um, Mark left was leaving, and he rang me up. One day, he said, Look, any chance of you [00:14:00] helping Jonathan out as I am leaving? I'm moving to Australia, I said, Yeah, I think so. But I said it sort of set it with hesitation. And then a few days later or so, I got a call from Jonathan saying, Hey, you heard Mark's leaving. Can you help me out and the implication I got with the wording. Help me out was just temporarily help me out. So I agreed to help him out until about a week or so prior to the show, actually [00:14:30] starting. He said, You know your stage manager, don't you? I said you're kidding me. He said if I told you I wanted you a stage manager when we started this, you would have run a mile. I said, you sod. He conned me. But anyway, it was a nice con. Uh, but the stress is, I suppose it's er, taking things to the to the to the max is making sure things happen for the for the cast, you [00:15:00] know that they are stressed themselves. You try and destress them as much as you possibly can. Um, I've had instances where I've I've had contestants really barrel me out because as far as they're concerned, something didn't happen or something went wrong and they blame me, and that's fine. That's that's their prerogative. I don't take it personally. It's just something that happens. Um, but we all laugh about it at the end of the day. You know, the audience, the audience actually don't realise there's a mistake [00:15:30] being made. We do, but the audience actually don't. But the con contestant is mortified to think that something has gone wrong. So, you know, we we try to keep things down. Distress in terms of trying to keep things under control. Do you have, um, techniques or, um, signals that you give people backstage? Because I'm I'm guessing you can't talk either. No, correct. I mean, I ma ma, when I when I first got there, I was a bit, [00:16:00] but taken back it with a mark. Mark was a very boisterous, loud, solid type of guy, you know? And he stamped his authority as as stage man, and you will be here. You will be quiet. You know, um, whereas a lot of the guys accepted that and and it didn't really phase them, some of them actually thought, Hey, this is a bit bit on the nose, you know, there's a bit on the top. So when I took over, I was a little bit the meek, mild sort of a character, and I thought, Oh, we'll just befriend everybody and and and everybody will just blend [00:16:30] in and it And it worked for me. Um and then occasionally I'll get, say, at a rehearsal, Jonathan will say, Oh, Steve, can you organise get everybody in such and such a position or for this particular act or whatever And I was screaming out at the top of my lungs, you know, get your so and so's back on stage or up here or wherever, and you you'll get the sneaker and they'll look at me and think, Where did that come from? You know, that's not Steve. Uh, but it's It's [00:17:00] It's fun, it's It's the guys are, it's It's such a compliment for for the guys to come up and say, Hey, thanks, Steve, You're really you're really doing us proud and it's it's it's It's a really great feeling. Great feeling. What do you think the, uh, biggest attributes are for, uh, being a successful stage manager? Oh, um, it's a It's a tough question, because I've never actually done this sort [00:17:30] of work before. II, I honestly can't answer that. However, my I would state that you really need to get the contestants or the performers, um, understanding of you and how you operate. You know, I don't think you don't need to be too aggressive with them. Uh, they have their own issues. They have their own concerns about what they're doing and and so forth. Um, you just need to offer them. And I believe I do offer them as much support as possible, [00:18:00] even if it's even if it means going the extra mile. Um, you an instance? One of the contestants, uh, was an actor, and he had his his outfits and staging and and props and so forth. It was quite vast. And he rings me up knowing that I've got a van for work. He said, Any chance of you being able to pick up my gear? I said, Yeah, no, that's fine. So I said, How big is it? And then he measured how big some of his head gear [00:18:30] and stuff was, and I thought, Oh, my God, this is not gonna fit in my van. But Steve been Steve, I said, Yeah, yeah, no, no, I'll organise it. So I actually went and hired a truck at my cost and rent Randy's house picked all his gear up about to leave, to take it to the stage to the to the um theatre to find. I had two flat tyres, so we ended up ringing. I did ringing the, um, rental company. [00:19:00] They brought another truck around and took the other one or repaired the other one. We unload one truck, reload the next one. What I thought was going to be an hour where it was about four hours. Not to mention I got stung for the blowing tyres as well. So that little exercise cost me about $300. Um, but that's that's fine. That's That was what I offered. And and it wasn't, you know, again, I was taking some stress away from this particular candidate. And, um, [00:19:30] you know, he knew he had a problem with getting his gear to getting gear to the stage. Let let's talk about the, um, the gear because the even simply the head gear is, what, two metres by two metres for each contestant. Totally. And, um, most of the staging area that I have to play with in in in terms of storage or so forth is minimal. And that has always been a nightmare for me. And, um, two days before the the the actual [00:20:00] show day. Um, most of the head gear and so forth is delivered. And and And it's up to me to then rearrange the stage in such a way that either the contestants can find their gear and in in in such a format that people aren't falling over each other because we go made to Z as far as who's coming on stage. So I don't want the Zs mixed up with the A's because everybody goes, It's just not gonna happen. Um, and if you've ever been behind stage on on, um, the [00:20:30] head gear time, it's it is organised chaos to the nth degree. And that's when people get really, really toy. Um, we've had instances where we've had, um, head gear getting caught up in curtaining. We've had instances where, um somebody's put head gear on and then walked past somebody else's head gear and broken it. And it's just wow, you know, and we all keep smiling. So yeah, so how do you [00:21:00] How do you plan out where the head gear is on that first? Well, generally we've got, uh, if you can imagine looking at the stage where? Left hand and right hand side. Um, II. I lay the the the head gear on the back wall and behind all the curtaining. Um, if a contestant tends to be, if if a contestant is is entering the stage from the left hand side, obviously their gear is on the left hand side and vice versa. Um, our biggest issue is the girls go on [00:21:30] stage with their massive head gears in general, uh, and they're escorted with either one or two boys. Now, I don't know why it is, but every year we've always had an issue with getting boys to girls. It is crossing them from one side of the stage to the next. They are literally running. Um, the perspiration is pouring off their faces, and occasionally we've actually missed a queue because of it, and [00:22:00] girls slash contestants get quite upset. And hence we've had some rather especially, uh, dress rehearsal. Not we've had some. Um, well, I've had a couple of dressing downs by contestants Say, why didn't I have this person Sorry. Yeah, just just an error. But it But it works out on the night. It's bizarre. It is so bizarre. And as the boy issue, because there are only what six [00:22:30] or seven boys compared to 30. Yeah. I mean, normally we have between eight and 10 boys. Um, and it's a matter of getting them paired up. Some of the girls specifically want a specific boy because A for the height size or they've got a costume that they want him to specifically wear. Now, when a boy is using a costume outside of his normal outfit for a specific candidate, Um, girl that takes that [00:23:00] person out of my role. Um, I don't have I don't have the facility to use them again until he can de de Robbe and get back into his normal clothes or his costume clothes. So yeah, it's, um, a bit confusing, as I say, organised chaos. So we've got the headgear, but we've also got there are other parts of the set totally, totally. And and I mean, if the Act one is reasonably straightforward, Um uh, as [00:23:30] a stage manager, you you get to a stage opening night or first night curtain goes up. The sense of adrenaline that pumped into your body in that split second for me personally is amazing. It's actually quite emotional. Um, it is a form of a relief in the fact that you've got to this point and now we now have a two hour show ahead of us. Now we're here for serious. There is no [00:24:00] mistakes, and it is as much as it is exciting. It is very emotional because you see everybody, the girls and the boys standing on stage. The curtain goes up. There's this huge roar from the crowd. The music starts and we're into it. It don't stop. So it's It's just amazing, Um, very exciting. It's hard to express express, and I can understand and appreciate how the girls and the contestants feel that split [00:24:30] second, the curtain goes up. It must be just amazing just to get that blast from the audience, you know, and we're just in the background. What I find really cool having been in one of the audiences is that the audience are absolutely wanting it to be successful, right, even before the curtain goes up. So you've got this wonderful energy, absolutely. And and it's in the six years that I've been there, uh, and associated with the show never been in the audience itself. But you obviously get [00:25:00] that vibe. The minute the curtain goes up. It's like, Wow, you know, this is we're talking world stars sitting out here. That's the sort of the atmosphere you've got. Um, you know, it could have been Elton John. That's the response that these people are getting. And it's just excellent. It's just excellent. It's exciting. How was it for you then? Taking the show to a different venue. Like, I know that you've toured to Wellington and, um, we've had a few humorous events. Doing [00:25:30] that first trip was Papa when we took it to Wellington, and fortunately it was an abbreviated, an abbreviated form. It wasn't a full, full show. Um, it was like a a, um, performance, an abbreviated performance for Papa itself. And, um, that particular year I was still stage manager or new, too. I think it might have been my my second stage manager role. Um, and I offered to drive a truck [00:26:00] with all the head gear to Wellington and um, which was fine. Jonathan organised the truck. It was reasonably small because nobody at the time had a heavy traffic licence, so So it was reasonably small. But we got the major majority of gear and into the into the van or truck. As it was, I drove it down. It's fine. Um, that particular year there was, uh, a contestant had a little issue with two [00:26:30] of their his backup crew for for Act two couldn't perform for whatever reason, illness or or whatever. So yours truly got roped into it. Well, I'll talk about petrified. So we actually did end up on stage in the lights. Rather rather scary. It's, um But we did it. We did it. I stayed in the background. Undisguised. Hopefully, no, it was awkward. [00:27:00] It was. Did you realise you were about to do that? No. No. It was like I was given six hours notice. However, I had been to all the rehearsals because my partner at the time was in the show in the Act two show. Um, so I was privy to to the dance routines and so forth. And it was reasonably I wouldn't say it was complicated, but it for somebody to just say, Hey, can you go and do this? Can you help us out? We need another guy on stage and I'm thinking, My [00:27:30] God, you know? So I got to wear somebody else's outfit and costume, which didn't quite fit. And but you know how we did it? We did it. So what was the feeling like? It was actually quite it was. It was exciting. Um, in the over the years, I've often thought to myself, Do I have the needs to actually go and do this to actually get out there? I could have said it to Jonathan. I wanna move on to the next stage. I want to go from [00:28:00] backstage to front stage, but I never really II I couldn't quite bring myself to it. And it was always an instance. Jonathan, we were at rehearsals one day. It wasn't that long ago. It was like maybe two years ago. And, um, I tend to get involved with the dancing and at rehearsals sort of helps me get into it and and, you know, we have a bit of fun with it. And afterwards, Jonathan said to me, I think you're a better [00:28:30] backstage than a dancer. And I thought, Oh, thank you, my friend. That's a really good compliment. So we didn't go any further forward with performing. What is Jonathan's directing style like, um, his directing style is very direct. Um, Jonathan, um has his a very, um, easy but directing manner, [00:29:00] if you know what I understand. Uh, he he's the only one that I could I can imagine to be able to get that group of people to do what is needed to be done. Um, he's very sensitive. He's very, um, in in context to the abilities of of some of the performance some of them have. You'd have to say, Wow, is that guy going to survive this show? You know, does he really know what he's doing? [00:29:30] But Jonathan supports him through it and and, you know, he he's He's very acknowledging. He's very aware of of what's going on around him. Um, no, I think it's great. He's just he's just generally excellent person. Everybody knows exactly where they stand with them. Um, there's no pretence. There's no ball. It's just Jonathan speaks his mind, tells him how he wants it to be done, organises [00:30:00] the, um, choreographers to do so, and it's done. So how does it work when he's like that in the, uh, rehearsals? As soon as you move into the theatre, do you then a stage manage. Just take on the role of Jonathan effectively. Um, three hours prior to the show, we'll have a get together on stage itself. We'll sit down. We'll have a, um, a chat backwards and forth. Jonathan will express his feelings to [00:30:30] to what's happening and and so forth. Now, as Jonathan's role then becomes performer slash Compare, um he must then divorce himself from the role of production manager um, and producer. So he then effectively, officially hands the stage and the performance over to me. And that's when things get really serious. Um, and I tend to take my job very, very seriously, even though it's a lot of fun. [00:31:00] Um, I get very to with individuals that don't do what I we think should be doing, You know what I'm saying? Um, we had an incident, so I in the early earlier years, I had we have headphones that I do in context to, um Allie has headphones. I have headphones so I can hear what the calls are and so forth. And this particular day I had headphones which were connected to a plug, so I had a lead, maybe a 20 metre [00:31:30] leap on what note? There's probably an extra 10 metre litre constantly. People are standing on this lead and ripping my head off my shoulders every time I walked past and it was so frustrating. And but there's one particular person that keep on doing it. So I need to say he got a mouth full. I had to apologise afterwards because it was rather a large mouthful. But, uh, the next year I actually got, um, Cordless one. So it made life a lot easier. That must be quite hard. I'm just thinking, in Jonathan's [00:32:00] situation, it must be quite hard being a director and a producer and then having to just completely step away from worrying about what everyone else is doing and and suddenly working about thinking about, You know how you're going to compare the show with Jonathan. It it must be hard for him and and I I do feel for him because he it's his baby, you know? He he works his entire life around this show, Um, and I. I give him [00:32:30] 100 and 10% credit for that, Um, with Kevin and his partner, they do a marvellous job. Jonathan's the minute he he effectively hands it over to me. He puts 100 and 10% trust in me, Ellie, that things are gonna go right in 99% of the time. They do, um, one of my roles, One of my fav favourite roles. And it's It's [00:33:00] few hours before the show. The contestants are downstairs in the green room or in their dressing room, getting ready and so forth regularly. Probably I would go and ask each and every contestant, possibly four times between that time to the actual curtain up. Is there anything you need? Is there anything I can do for you? It's just again distressing them, just knowing that they're being thought about. And And this includes Jonathan and and Kevin. Uh, you know, they're putting [00:33:30] their huge costumes on, uh, they've got to focus on their their presentation to the to the audience, so they, too, are very involved with what's going on around them. And they've got media asking them, talking to them so forth. So it's it's It's a busy, busy time the last couple of hours prior to, uh, kid up. Are there any little rituals that you do before? Um, we have. We have a little little dress rehearsal. Um, pre kidnap. Um, [00:34:00] little warm up. Um, but other than that, nothing major, um, it's really just it's just lots of things needing to be done. Um, I mean, I run around and then I go and check that everything's in one place or the places that's supposed to be. Um, and I make sure I got batteries on my torches. I got I have pens or I have my mics working or so forth and so on. Or or the the tables are set at the back where we have the, um, flowers [00:34:30] and this and the awards to be set in the order that they need to be done and and things like that. So is it your responsibility to make sure that all the costumes are in the right places and all the set pieces are in the right places? Um, when it comes to act two, as I say, Act one is reasonably straightforward. Um, there's a few routines that go on and and and so forth. And Jonathan and and Buffy and Bimbo uh, do the presentation and and so forth come back to [00:35:00] a different story. That's when my role gets a little bit more up front. And that's when the Act two girls have all their sets and so forth, which need to be positioned or or taken away, or even even to an extent. Um, I had a few little roles in acts last year, not visual roles, but things needed to be done precisely at a certain time. Um, so it gets pretty busy, and, uh, they get very precious [00:35:30] about their show because they are at the end of the day, the Act two girls are the ones that are there for the money. Um, one of those two girls will win the queen of the show, and nobody knows who it's going to be. It is a legitimate judging process. Um, so it is my role to ensure that they get the each and every one of them gets the best that they require without any bias. [00:36:00] And I can honestly say there has never, ever been a bias. Has there been a sabotage ever? Never. Never, never. If there has not by me. Uh, no, it's all It's all very good. It's I mean, all the act two girls totally have high regard to each another. Each another one. And you know, never at all. Never be that to that extent. We mentioned briefly touring to Wellington, And I'm wondering, um, we didn't quite touch on [00:36:30] moving into a new theatre space and and trying to work out how how everything works. Can you talk to me about that? That's that's that was a challenge. Um, the last Wellington run we did, um, Jonathan organised the truck again for me to I offered to drive down, and we realise that Oh, my God, this truck is not gonna take all this gear panic. It was a serious [00:37:00] panic. We This was on the Saturday. The show was the following Saturday. We needed to get all the gear down there. We needed to get them in the in the staging area. We needed to do dress rehearsals. And that particular week I had taken off from work and I offered my services to drive the truck down, um, help stage set up and help Jonathan. Whatever he needed doing during that week, we can get 50% of the head gear in the truck. [00:37:30] We have a major problem. What do we do with the other gear? Nobody had a HD licence to get the bigger truck. So yours truly offers to drive the truck there back there and back. And trust me, that was a nightmare. I had never been so exhausted in my life. It was just very tolling. Um, but we did it. The show must go on. And, um, I drove to Wellington on the Saturday, um, unloaded [00:38:00] Sunday morning, Drove all the way back to Auckland, loaded up again, slept Sunday night, Monday morning, drove all the way back here. So, uh, yeah, it was, um, quite a quite, um, quite tiring, but, uh, and then all the late nights with, uh, the rehearsals and the and the so forth. It was a very big week, but I Jonathan was pretty appreciative of these. Um, you know, he knew we we all went the extra mile. It wasn't just me. It was, You know, everybody [00:38:30] went the extra mile to make sure that that everything went through because we made the promise to the contestants. We will get your gear there. So it was up to up to us to do it. We did it prior to actually getting into the theatre. Have you worked out? Um, because I I imagine all the dimensions backstage in front of the stage will be quite different. Totally. Totally. Um, for example, ST James, um, has slightly raped um, staging, um, smaller. Uh, and all I was given was [00:39:00] a piece of paper with a measurement on it. I actually had an eyeball. This thing. So my first, um, experience at this stage is when I finally got down there and think, Wow, where am I going to put all this gear? But we it's it's we found a way, and it happens. It just, you know, if you don't, I think the idea is just to stay calm and and and don't try and and just just go with the flow because it will happen. And we can We can work it somehow. Um and then it's just a matter [00:39:30] of OK, we we don't need this gear, particularly in act one, So we'll put it in storage. That means in that interval of time, we do the big swap over and and and bring Act two gears out. So, um, there's, you know, there's a way of doing it around everything. Um, but it was it was a bit scary, you know, how How do we put all this stuff in there? Uh, and then more to the point, we had a particular routine where the entire, um, cast was in one line right across the face of the stage. Well, we couldn't get them all in. [00:40:00] So then Jonathan devised a way of getting them in. We doubled them up and so forth. So as I say, there's a way. Just don't stress. Don't panic. What about the interface between, um, the people of the show and the people of the venue? So, like the the technicians that are actually housed in the venue? How does that work? It's It's great. Um, we don't cross paths. Um, I have as far as I'm concerned, I have high regard [00:40:30] and respect to the their role is lighting person or or visuals or whatever the case may be, um, it's their stage. At the end of the day, it's their stage. And the, you know, the there's a guy that manages the stage as a full time job. Um, we take nothing for granted. We ask permission before we even put a piece of tape on the stage. Um, total respect to these guys, um, they run a very professional [00:41:00] in, um, staging process. Um, and we must respect that, Uh, but everything is they get on well with us. They now understand us. You know, sometimes when there's one particular guy, uh, the stage manager, slash uh, the full time guy there. And he's quite a rough, butchie type of character, you know, big handlebar moustache and so forth. And then here's a bunch of queens arrive and you and you think you have My God. What is he [00:41:30] thinking of next? You know, and we all we all take the Mickey out of him, and it's still a bit of fun, but he's a very straight serious sort of a guy, but he he understands. But he's as I say, we give them in the respect they deserve, and and it all goes fine. They'll tell us if if we're not allowed to do something, they'll tell us. Um, because some there are some things we can't do, you know, obviously, for for safe and health, safety and health reasons, um, we've got to be careful where we stage [00:42:00] things where we hang things, whether we can hang things. Um, some of the guys wanted to use naked flames. We can't do that. Some of the guys wanted to use dry ice. We can't do that in specific cases we have done before. Um, we one of the contestants want a dry ice for their show. And this was up up here in Auckland, and, um, we accommodated not a problem. Uh, special machine. And it blows this dry ice across the floor. Well, we had a It was my role and [00:42:30] responsibilities to get this dry ice blowing across the stage, which we did. And this was prior to the curtain actually going up. So the appearance was this cloud of smoke going hazing through the the floor. Well, Jonathan would not get off the stage. He was talking bimbo and Buffy you're referring to with talking and talking and talking on stage. We ran out of dry ice. By the time the curtain went up, there was no dry ice left. So [00:43:00] we we sort of advise Mr um Jonathan to make his speeches a little shorter in future. When we can using dry ice. That must be very hard to time in terms of, you know, making sure that there's enough of a kind of a missed out there, but not too much. So you can't see anything. Well, ironically, rehearsal dress rehearsal. They didn't do the full talking side of it, Jonathan and, um, I pumped the dry ice on, but then we had the [00:43:30] other other end of the scale. We actually lost the contestants. I had too much of it. Uh, we we we So we didn't actually ever win that one. Are there any other memorable moments that you can that you can think of there? There's probably numerous in in, you know, we've had guys breaking arms. We've had, um, heels been broken on stage. I've had the abuse given at me because of things haven't gone right. [00:44:00] Um, obviously, the double run with the truck, um, it's just it's just just momentous, really. It's it's it's just such a privilege to be associated with it. Um, it will be a very emotional time this year being its last. Um, it will be the biggest and best ever. I'm sure. Um, it's just gonna be straight [00:44:30] out exciting. Uh, and I'm sure the other contestants and other participants in the show it's a highlight of your year because I know it's a really highlight of my year. You know, I look forward to it. Um, I can't wait till we actually start rehearsals. Rehearsals and and And And we start moving in. And then then I can then start forming a plan in my head how things are gonna work. Because at this stage, I've got no idea. Absolutely no idea. Um, but in a couple of weeks, we'll [00:45:00] start to think about it and move on and build the bigger picture for for the audience to appreciate and enjoy. And I'm sure they're gonna have AAA great night.

IRN: 534
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/qwu_evan_donnelly.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003942
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089236
TITLE: Evan Donnelly - Queen of the Whole Universe
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Evan Donnelly
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Evan Donnelly; Gay Auckland Business Association (GABA); Queen of the Whole Universe; drag; performance; theatre
DATE: 27 May 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Evan talks about performing in the Queen of the Whole Universe beauty pageant.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I knew of the show. Um, when I very first started, it used to be called Queen of the whole Pacific. And I remember seeing posters for it. When I first moved to Auckland, I thought that'd be that'd actually be quite fun to see. But I actually saw the posters on it, like on the day and tough like that, was it? So there's only one show That's it. One night and then, um, a couple of years later, I had a friend who was in it, and every now and again, Oh, yeah, I got to go to rehearsal blah, blah, blah. And and I said, Oh, what are you actually rehearsing [00:00:30] for? And it was Queen of the Universe. And then the following year, he was camping with us, where a group of us had all gone up north. And, um, we were sitting around the fire at night and he was talking about the thing. And by the end of the evening, we'd all said, Well, actually, let's let's just do this. We sent Jonathan a text, got our names on the list, and, um, or relatively sober. So did you have to have any kind of prior experience before kind of signing up? No, [00:01:00] no. Um, some people that are involved in the show, some of them are dancers. Some of them aren't. Some can sing most can't, um, some people make their own costumes? Some don't. It's it's It's a completely random level of skill. And in every aspect of the show, you get some people that come through and they have absolutely no experience, no idea about anything at all. And by the end of it, they've probably made their own costume. They've learned a routine they've. If they've struggled, there's always somebody on hand to [00:01:30] give them a hand. And, um, if they know what they're doing, then they're the one that's giving the hand. So had you done any performance work before? Oh, not since Not since high school. Yeah. So several years and in high school, what were you doing? Um, as the usual school productions, like every year, the the senior school would put on a play or show or cabaret of some form. Um, that would go for three or four or five nights. Yeah, and that was that was it? That was the extent of my have you done drag before Ah, randomly [00:02:00] like a costume party, that sort of thing. It literally it was just putting on a dress, slapping on a rough wig and walking in. That was it. So to go from buying a dress at Save Mart. Having a good laugh, um, to shaving your armpits, shaving your face, putting on makeup, false eyelashes, it's a bit of a jump. Yeah, yeah. Can you take me through that process? Because, I mean, even just shopping for a dress. I mean, if you've never done that before, it must be quite. [00:02:30] It's an interesting experience. Um, save Mart is a good example, because there's so much there for so cheap, and it's so full of people whenever you go there. So the first time I went there was for this random party, and we basically walked in. There was a group of three or four of us. Come on straight down to the women's section and we're flicking through because it was for a little black dress. Everyone had to wear a little black dress to get in. So we went to the evening wear and, um, pulling out all these dresses and oh, Well, what's [00:03:00] a 12? What would I be? So you think 0, 18. That always sounds like a big girl. So back that went No, I'm an 18. Our ribs are different. Different rib cages are different. Sizing. Um, so, yeah, you sort of go along, pick up your fun dress for 10 bucks and away you go with the show. We tend to have a theme, like a colour. Um, last time we did the show, it was purple, Um, and so you would make a dress or buy a dress or have somebody make a dress for you. [00:03:30] Um, one lady actually dyed her wedding dress. She died at purple. Um, it looked really cool that I What do I do? The very first year I was on the show. I'll just get a dress like from Save Mart. And I'll just sew stuff onto it because I've got a sewing machine and I know how to sew. So that will be a easy way of getting around making a dress. And it was It was bad. It was really bad. It was embarrassing. But it was all I had time for. And then [00:04:00] the following year, we had arranged for somebody to make. There was my flatmate and mine Arrange for somebody to actually to make dresses for us. So there was nothing. Last minute it was all done. They were going to fit and they were in theory, they were going to look really good. The thing I got handed a couple of days before the show was it was an embarrassment. I was afraid that somebody thought I would have made it so called in sick for work the next day, went down the road, visited the ladies at the patent shop. Oh, what do you need for this? What's how [00:04:30] much fabric and and how much thread and all this sort of thing? Oh, how big is she? And this that the other results for me. And they were They were. They were in their seventies and they were quite for a couple of minutes, and then they were away. They went, they thought it was great. And I got my pattern, put out my fabric all across the kitchen floor and learned how to make a dress. So that was the start. So are there any kind of, uh, like sewing bees where You know, people kind [00:05:00] of pull together to to make things Or is it just very much, you know, um, at the dress is actually, when you start seeing dresses, it pretty much is Yeah. Um, last year I made a big ball gown, like a hoop dress and everything for the last time and an old flatmate of mine who had done the show for a couple of years as well. He came around so we were cutting out our patterns on our our lounge floor because we've got a large floor area. So we had It was purple fabric everywhere, strips of it. We had [00:05:30] to put it all in order of when you'd cut it. So you didn't put it in his pile, and we didn't get them mixed up. We weren't missing pieces. And, yeah, I think it's probably the sewing. Be as it's gotten. What about favourite shops? Do you have favourite shops that you go to? Um, I first year I went to Jeff's emporium six bucks a metre, nice and cheap. Um, that that was really good. And at the time they had some good stuff. Then once it became a definite colour as the previous [00:06:00] time, it was sort of more random. You could have any any colour you chose. Um, everyone was emailing and texting us. Oh, I saw this purple at such and such a place, and they were texting prices and stuff, so we all ended up. Oh, there's probably only about four different fabrics that you saw on stage. They're all very, very similar. Um, and I got mine from I think it's Martha's a new market. Martha's Centre Point Centre Point in New Market. Yeah, they were quite good. They were good with the price. [00:06:30] And then I went through and I thought, Well, all I've got for my sewing gear is what my grandmother left me. So an old sewing machine and some old scissors and some random threads. So I went through and I bought scissors and chalk. And like the tape measure and all the sort of the sewing stuff, I remembered my mom having. So, um, now I'm all kitted out ready for this year. So who taught you how to sew? I learned how to sew at school. Um, back in intermediate. You did Quarter of the year was sewing quarter of their cooking would work in their metal work. So you had your [00:07:00] your four things you did at intermediate, and that's for two years. I think that was every everybody got the same treatment. But then my mother sewed When I was a kid, she made most of her clothes. My grandmother was really, really clever, um, with her sewing, and I think because I was around it and I saw it. I mean, all you do is you put your foot down and push. That's all. Sewing really is. I don't know how people say they can't. So, um, the pattern is even better. You cut out the shape, follow what it says to do, and this address [00:07:30] that was a lot easier than I expected it to be. Is there a difference between looking at a fabric and thinking this will look good on a day to day basis? But you're not doing that. You're thinking this will look good on stage. How do you How do you work out what looks good on stage under the lights. And, um, I like with the purple because I needed a lot of purple for this thing I'd created. I picked it up and I held it up. They had some lights hanging down, so I just wiggled [00:08:00] around under that and thought, Oh, yeah, it's got a bit of shine to it, so that'll do. Um, some people go for, like, the sequin the really, really shiny stuff. Um, I haven't sold that before, so I don't know what that what that will be like, but that's probably what I'm going to go for this year. Um, because I want something being the last show. You want something that's gonna stand out? Um, yeah, yeah, you sort of think how also, How would it look from a distance when you think of we're in a theatre, we're in a large theatre, and the audience is metres away from us, [00:08:30] especially the ones at the top. They they're quite a distance. Um, you think Well, hey, is there a point getting something of a a pattern on it? Nobody's going to see. So then you you get a plane fabric, or you get something that's really bold, and that would actually stand out. Um, like with eyelashes. Um, the first year I did it, I thought, Oh, yeah, OK, let's have a go with false eyelashes. See what these are like. So I bought some that to me looked quite long. And when I went on stage on the night, once everyone had their makeup on, I shouldn't have even bothered. Like you [00:09:00] had these things that, like an inch and a half long And here was my little centimetre long things. And I even had trouble blinking, like looking with them because they they're so foreign. And when they're on you, they look so big until you get used to them. Whereas now I've got the inch and a half ones as well. I think these are great, but you need that because people they really do only see you from a distance. What about shoes? Shoes are a challenge. Um, my very first year. Um, Jonathan, who organises [00:09:30] a show. He's very good at letting, especially new people know things they need to know. Like, where's a good place to get your shoes? Where's a cheap place to get your fabric? Um, all those style of things. Um, I think he'd even said to me because I knew Jonathan beforehand. Um, and I was talking to him one day and he said, Do do your first two or 34 rehearsals just in your normal shoes and then start filtering in your show shoes so you can get used to them because you're not just [00:10:00] walking around in a couple of little pumps or something. These are monstrous bloody things. And my first year again, like the lashes, I thought sensible and I bought a couple of inches of heel and struggled sort of dancing around and moving in those because when you rehearse in shoes, it's all relatively easy because you've got a good, good footing. You stick heels on and then you try and do that same thing that you learned the last week. As soon as the heels go on, everything you learn is out the door because you're so focused on the heels and not tripping over. And then, um, as the years go on, the heels get taller and taller. [00:10:30] So a couple of years ago, I was involved with a, um, an Act two show, which was for Japan, and there were three Japanese girls, and we all had these white knee high PV C boots with like five inch heels on them and I can run on the things like they were amazingly steady. Um, but for the normal part of the show, where I was just in the opening section, I'd gone and bought these big perspex shoes like, Oh, well, these are really cool. And the heel was attached to the front of the shoe by [00:11:00] little perspex bar. So there was no worry about the heel wobbling or falling off, which I'd seen happen to a couple of others. And they were so wobbly, I couldn't dance properly, and then they were actually dangerous. Um, this year I'm involved in in another part of the show as well. So we've all got shoes for that and again, nice and tall, but really, really strong and that you get shoes that buckle up. If it can support more support around the top of your foot, then that's the safer you are. And the less chance you're going to [00:11:30] sort of slip out of them or or fall over because you see a few people do trip, and these are pretty tall shoes. And is the male foot different from the female foot? A little bit wider? Yeah, Yeah, I don't know about toes with or anything like that. But the the the plant of the foot is is wider. Um, there's a shop out in. Yeah, um, Ronnie's it was called. And that was where the first couple of times. And they specialise in shoes for the fuller footed woman. So? So [00:12:00] a lot of the a lot of the the the performers and drag queens and things. They tend to go there because they have these shoes that fit. Um, when we got the PV C boots, we went out out with with ladies to import them, she had all sorts of things. Um, recession hit. She stopped bringing things in. So we had to find a new source. And there was a lady supplies a lot of gear to strippers, and she was out in Mission Bay. So of course, three guys trot along to her house into her stripper room, and there's all these horse shoes, [00:12:30] and we were like, Oh, look at this look. And she's she wants to sail, but she is looking at us sideways, and, um, she had a full catalogue. Whatever you want, you just order it up. She brought it in from the states. So, um, really, really easy. It must be quite fabulous having, um, those familiar shops where the assistants know instantly. Are you coming in for queen of the whole universe or what have you? Yeah, that that is really good. We went to with another friend. I went to number one shoes. Um, there had been something on TV, Possibly he he'd [00:13:00] seen their shoes, but he wanted somebody to come with him while he was trying them on. And so we had the two young shop guys running around trying to find the largest pair of these things that they had. And I think in the end, they had to come in from a different store because they don't make those, like, the style of worn shoes large enough that you're lucky if you can get them in a normal shop. So generally we have to order. Um, I've got some from the states this time around, and there in three days, it was great. The only thing is, you can't try them on first, [00:13:30] so I thought, Oh, I don't want to get these things have them wrong. So I went down to the mall and I marched on into the athlete's foot and I said to the girl, Hi, I've got a bit of a query and you're probably going to laugh at me, but I need to know what my shoe size is as an American woman. Sure enough, she just pulls out the little slidey thing that I used to have put on my feet when I was a kid and measured me up. And she wrote down. I didn't even know there were such varieties of shoe sizes, But you had, um, I think I'm a 42 or 43 [00:14:00] American woman. Then there's a US size Oh no, a British sizing which we run on. And then there was the centimetre sizing as well. So you can now go on to these websites and you know the different things you need to order. So, yeah, I. I might be getting more shoes for the, um, for the finale and the after party as well. Um, seeing as it is, the last show you're going to make make an effort. Are you keeping all your shoes and all your costumes? Um, [00:14:30] the very first dress that that went in the bin that really was too horrific to be seen again. I kept the horror dress that was made for me that's become a bit of a standing joke. Um, I think it was even at one point, I was talking about turning into a flag when I go camping at New Year, Um, and the other dress is, um, very lovingly screwed up into a ball and put into the into the show box. But the the show boxes are now starting to outnumber the Christmas decorations and the Halloween stuff because [00:15:00] there's a box of heads with wigs on them. And then there's a box full of shoes. And then there's the dress and the patterns from all the dresses and the the spare fabric for things and lashes and stockings and all all the different things that you buy nail polish if you rip your stockings. Um, secret socks. Your feet don't hurt so much party feet because your feet will hurt. Just go back on so the nail polish because, um, if you and I remember hearing this years ago, if you ladder [00:15:30] your stockings, especially when it starts with a clear nail polish on the starting point stops that ladder spreading. And it worked. Got a pair of stockings. I spent about 40 or 50 bucks on them thinking, Wow, these are so cool. Very first show sitting on the ground waiting, um, for the warm up, just before we're about to go on and perform, And the first thing I did was snag them on my shoe, But you learn your lessons, so don't sit down. Once you've got your stuff on, have to stand and pace because your feet start to hurt so much [00:16:00] because you've been rehearsing solidly for a week by that stage because it's performance night and when you might have a week between rehearsals, your feet are very forgiving. But when you've been doing it every night and clamping around the way that we do, your feet aren't quite so forgiving. So you're looking forward to anything you can lean against to prop yourself against. Yeah, stockings are a bit of a challenge, but do you access R as well? Are you allowed like, um, bags, handbags or blowers or, um, [00:16:30] I made for there was three of us in the house and one had just gone. Um, and So I made us all handbags for the clutch purse things for for the after parties. So we could put our keys in our cards inside these bags, and we all got fabric that matched our dresses, so they were all all the same. So you had that. I think I borrowed a purse from one of my workers last year, and she brought it in for me and said, Here you go. This will suit your dress. Because, of course, they're turning [00:17:00] up every morning to go to work. And he's a dress dolly in the in the lounge with the bloody ball gown on. So, um, you do that? Um, sometimes people have tiaras. Um, A few years ago, I got I got some rings and things from trade me and necklaces. Um, I had the earrings, but the wigs are so big that you don't see your ears, so earrings are a bit of a waste. Um, And then there's the wigs. Yeah. What? What do you look for in wigs? [00:17:30] Depends on what you're going to be. Uh, it depends on your character and your country. Um, I was Miss Tracy Island. Um, the last show I was Miss Tracy Island. So I was Lady, I sort of modelled myself on Lady Penelope. So of course I had to be blonde. And for the opening routine, I'd made the big, like, sort of bell from Beauty and the Beast, a big purple ball gown. That was my opening dress. And I had a long It was a Pamela Anderson [00:18:00] style wig, and it sort of was slightly raised, a bit like sort of mini mini mini beehive, and then all just came around in layers. And it was actually it was actually pretty cool. If I was a woman, I would want to hear like that. So that was my opening then for Catwalk. I had bought a second wig and the lady from Wix. Um, she styled this wig up for me in a French role because Penelope was always done up and good clothes and good hair. So I thought, I'll get the hair up like that. Look all classy, [00:18:30] like a sophisticated sixties and one made myself a black and white, um, sort of panelled. Um, I think they call it a pencil dress, possibly made one of those that was more challenging than the purple dress because of the shape of the panels you had on it. And, um and so yeah, a different wig again. Um, quite often you buy your wig, and that's your wig for the whole show. Um, but then I was involved in Germany for the Act two number the same year. [00:19:00] So I had my Pamela wig for the opening. I had my French royal wig for the catwalk. Then I had a black, like 19 thirties sort of lies in an early cabaret wig, little Bob thing. Then we had a second wig for the end of the act that we came out like German beer wines. So we had big blonde pig tails. So depending on what you do and how involved it is and how involved you are with it, you could have several costume changes, several [00:19:30] wigs, several pairs of shoes. Um, nothing stays the same. And it's all very quick, literally. We with the Act two number. We were nurses for the start and a little PV C, slutty nurses outfits and, um, which I have to admit I actually wore last night to a party. I could still fit it so that was good. Um, then you basically as you're running from one side of the stage to the other to get a prop, you're also unzipping [00:20:00] your nurses up and ripping that off because you've got another costume squeezed in underneath and then something else happens and you run off, and within 30 seconds you're back on stage again and a different costume, maybe even the different wig, like we had the beer winch, wigs and pom poms. We were cheerleaders at the same time. So yeah, things happen pretty quickly and you've got to keep track of all your stuff and know exactly where it's sitting. Um, so in that aspect, it very much is a stage production. You have to have your thing. You've got your stage hands there. If you need [00:20:30] help, um, everything has to be set up, lined up, practised and rehearsed over and over and over again. So that on the night, in theory, you should do it all without thinking you would need really good coordination. I think I'd just be terrible at that. I am terrible at it. I always feel like I'm I'm the weakest link. Um, you do rehearse over and over and over again. And and when it comes to the Act two stuff, you're not quite so inconspicuous [00:21:00] as you are in the opening. In the opening, you got 40 or 50 people on the stage at once. So if you turn the wrong way, or you put your arm up in the good chance a fair few people didn't actually notice, even though you'll be mortified for the rest of the night because, oh my God, everybody. So they don't going to act, too. It's a competition, and you everybody is being judged on everything in it. There's a little more pressure there, and and a lot of a lot more self consciousness. You just you more you you'll practise 23 times a week. Um, depending [00:21:30] on what people can do, you practise at home. Sometimes people will video and put it on a like a private YouTube thing you have to sign in for. Then you can. You can watch your routine and practise from that because guaranteed, you'll forget that by the next time you will get together, um, two or three shows ago again, when there was several of us living in the same house doing it. We would actually get together an hour before rehearsal on the Sundays and put on a show for our neighbours. We'd be out in the backyard, on the lawn with [00:22:00] the stereo cranked up to all these handbag music. And here we are dancing around. Luckily, we've only got one neighbour in the rest of the street. Behind us is empty sections so but if they ever looked out, they probably what the hell's going on over there, especially once you start putting the dresses on and the shoes. But it helped, Um, especially that that year was the first year for three. There was five of us. Five of us got together that year to practise, and three [00:22:30] of them was the brand new brand new thing. And and and one of them was a little bit hesitant. So he needed those rehearsals to to help him feel more comfortable when he got there. So he wasn't so self-conscious about actually simply just being there and having to dance, feeling uncoordinated. So with those brand new people, what are what are the kind of tips that you give them? Yeah, keep it simple. Don't don't think about things too much. If you stuff up rehearsal, who cares? Nobody sees. Um, at the end of the day, all those rehearsals are simply practised for the night. [00:23:00] So get all the crap out of the way first, and then on the night, everything will just come together. Even when you think it won't, it tends to just fall into place. And before you know it, I mean, the curtain goes up and then the curtains going down, and it's like, Oh, my God, it's like three or four months worth of work and stress and it's all over now be even worse this time because we won't be doing it again. But, um, it it passes passes amazingly quickly. So any other tips? Mostly, Yeah, mostly. It's just keeping things [00:23:30] simple, like the first year. Especially, um, there's so much for them to think about because they've got to learn these routines. They've got to make all the rehearsals because things a routine can change in a rehearsal placings of where you're going to stand. Um, the dresses. They might have an idea on what they want, but it's going to be really constricted, and they're not going to be able to move promptly and and things like that, um, we'll have to have full length dresses as well now, but, um, if you want a big split or something, that's all fine, but no short dresses, So they have to think about [00:24:00] things like that, so sort of show them if you know them. Um Oh, come on. Show the photos from last year. Come, come and watch the DVD. Because we tend to buy the DVD of it as well for for a keepsake. And, um and from that, you can give them pointers as well. Oh, you don't get shoes like that. Those ones break. Don't go here and buy those shoes. Those ones break. Get this sort of shoe. If it's the first time, only go half so high. Don't be. Don't be stupid about it. I know they're going to look really good, but you'll break your ankle, get little short ones, um, wigs. Get some hair clips. You'll [00:24:30] appreciate it later when you're eating it or it's caught in your eyelashes and you're on stage and you can't sit there and keep pulling it out of your face. Because all it wants to do is go into your mouth. No matter what you do or how you move that wig wants to get in your mouth. It's awful because every time you try and get rid of it, you've now got makeup on your face. You don't have makeup usually. So I shut this makeup on my glove because you wear gloves so you don't have to worry about doing nail polish and, um, panny hose so you don't shave your legs most. Most shave their legs. [00:25:00] I, um I, I just really I just can't be bothered. I don't like shaved legs, so I'll put on three or four pairs of thick, thick panty hose and you never know. Um, I shave my eyebrows. The last Yeah, the last show. I shave my eyebrows off for that because that's what the pros do. They shave their eyebrows off and put new ones on, so the eyes become bigger from a distance from stage lighting and everything like that. The eyes become normal, whereas everyone else [00:25:30] that doesn't have big, big eyes, the lighting and the distance shrinks your eyes down to nothing. So I thought, OK, instead of putting all the wax they put wax over your eyebrow, smooth it all down, make it flat, and then they paint the wall paint over the top and, um, the wax is the pain in the arse. It looks funny. Within 10 minutes, it's all flaking, and your eyebrows are starting to lift again and you look like an alien. So let's just shave the things off, and I take it up in a weeks, they'll grow back. Um, and at the time, I was well [00:26:00] overdue for a haircut. Oh, do the whole bloody lot Shave my head as well. I looked like I had cancer. It was it was really bad. I looked so ill and everyone kept staring at me and a flatmate had gone down with me. When I went to get it done, he wouldn't look at me. Every time I turn around in the car, he'd turn away, so I'll stop it. It made him feel sick, so I wouldn't do that again. II I personally, I wouldn't recommend shaving your eyebrows off for an event that goes for three hours. If you're [00:26:30] going to be doing a show that's lasting for a week, yeah, it makes perfect sense. But I like the next morning I had to go and do a quote for a new job. And so I had a hat on to hide my shaved head and she's just staring at me. It's like, Yes, pulled off the hat. I have no eyebrows. I have no hair. No, I don't have cancer And it was like that for two weeks. Then I finally get taking the eyebrows, double finally. But it took about two months for my eyebrows to be normal again. It was. It took a long time [00:27:00] considering how quickly the hair on my head grows. Eyebrows. No, not like that at all. You mentioned just before, um, very briefly about stress, and I'm wondering, do you find the process stressful or it depends on other commitments. Um, I found the first year I did it, Um, I had just started a new job, and so time was a bit different. Time [00:27:30] was a bit strange, um, and so rehearsals were fine. They were in the weekends. I didn't work weekends. But trying to organise stuff and amongst other commitments was a little more challenging than I thought. Next year, came around. Um, hey, fine was back. I was back in the sink of things. That was all good. The year after that, I actually had left my job and started working for myself. So hey, great. I've got all the time in the world and I just arrange my jobs and rehearsals around to suit. By the next year, business [00:28:00] had tripled, so that was actually a big challenge. Even making a rehearsal, um, was not too difficult. But you really had to plan yourself and work hard to make sure that you were done in time. Making the dresses was harder again because I had to make. This was the year I made the ball gown. So I had to make that I had to make the pin dress. Um, and what I found was I'd be up six in the morning, sewing away, go to bed for a couple of hours, get up again at eight. And [00:28:30] off to work because it was like the week of the show. Where's all my time gone? How the hell did this happen again? Um, this year I've had to I've got staff now, and, um, I have to pay an extra person to to work in my place. Um, for the for the weekends. Um, luckily, I don't work on the the Wednesday nights, which are also rehearsal evens. I don't do that anymore. So that was going to be a challenge, too. So the show itself, on top of all your, um, your costuming and your dress [00:29:00] and the wigs and all that sort of stuff. If you don't work a normal 9 to 5 job and you can't just say take time off or nip away for life if you're actually self-employed or or sort of doing the sort of things that I do, This show is actually an incredibly expensive pastime. Um, hundreds of dollars. And that's just in the staffing, let alone the the several $100 you'll spend, um, or possibly spend creating your dresses even more so if you have to pay somebody to make it for you. Um, [00:29:30] if you can't so which many people can't. Um, that's pretty much the only option is to pay somebody to make a dress or buy a dress off, trade me and hope hope that it's going to be OK. So So given all that What keeps you coming back for more. Why do you do it? I'm an idiot. No, I like it. I really enjoy the show. Um, it's a lot of fun. And and in the lead up [00:30:00] and on the stressful days, where where works a problem or I'll be because of a I might have been working till, say, three in the morning and then And it's three. In the morning, and I'm just going home and I'm cursing, like, why am I doing this again? What a stupid thing to do. I knew this would happen. Um, come out of the show. Absolutely love it. And it is all worthwhile. Um, I've after that first show decided, Yeah, I will do this as long as it goes for I will. I'll be involved because I like the show. Um, I like what it stands [00:30:30] for. I like what it supports, and I like the people that I've met through the show. I mean, there's people that I would never ever have crossed paths with, Um, unless it was because of the show. And so some of them you'll actually start to see shows socially after the show. Others you'll only actually ever see a show time during and and you look forward to it. And so the first two or three rehearsals, it's literally a catch up over the past year, like What have you been doing? So it's good. It's in all aspects. It's a really, really good [00:31:00] experience, you know, coming up to the 10th and final performance of Queen of the Whole Universe. I was wondering if you had any thoughts on on that being the final, Um, it's nice to go out with a bang. It It's sort of one of those things. Like it's it's gone from strength to strength every year, like every show has been better than the previous year. And and at the start of it, like Oh, no, last year was nothing. You're going to get better than that. The next year comes along and you said it's better than that. The performances [00:31:30] are better. The routines are better. The costume. Every year, the costumes get better. The head gear. When you do the catwalk gets bigger. Um, so this year it's a build up again on on last year, but also on all the years previous. It's it's a combination of all of it. It is the last show, and it's a showcase for all the shows. Um, when it's over, I can have a lot of boxes full of stuff to store. Um, [00:32:00] it is. It is meant to be the last show. It's not meant to continue again, and I keep hearing the words in its present format. So maybe in the future the show might come about again in a different style or in a different way or with a different purpose. Who knows? It may not come back at all. If it does, I've got my boxes. I'll be pulling them out of storage. But we'll just see. We'll see what happens. Um, it'll it'll be sad to know that we're not [00:32:30] gonna not going to be doing it again, because it is. It is something that you start to look forward to. Um, I've been rehearsing for the Act two show that I'm in now for about. I think we've had about five or six rehearsals over the past couple of months, and so the build up is already there. We haven't even started rehearsing for the show itself, for the for the opening routine. Um, but we're already sort of getting underway for that. That five minute performance at the end. So this time, are you reprising your role of miss? [00:33:00] No, No, that was my very first year. Somebody who has already snapped up your anus so I can't have it back. So I'm actually undecided. I don't I don't know. I've had the idea of Hades for a couple of years, and last year there was a heaven, so I thought that'd be really good. Heaven and hell, that'd be, um, but there's not going to be a heaven this year. And then who's going to know what Hades is? Because when I was Miss Tracy Island, nobody knew what Tracy Island was. So there was only a few [00:33:30] little devout Thunderbirds fans that knew. So when we did the show in Wellington, I was then Miss Thunderbirds so people could understand who I was meant to be. Um I have been God, what else was Venus? I was Venus one year, so I came out. I had a giant clamshell behind me and had a reveal on stage my helper, who guided me down. Um, the lights changed and it went to black light. So my whole clamshell glowed in UV. And then while that was happening, she runs parcels, all dressed up in furs. And then she tore [00:34:00] the furs off me. And I'm just standing there and knickers and things. So, um, because the flesh suit was too expensive, it was about $300 to get a flesh suit made. I thought, I'm wearing on stage for like, 30 seconds. I'm not spending $300. Um, I don't know what I'll be this year. Still, I'm still very under, and it's the same every year, every year. I just cannot decide. And the more and more people that put forward Oh, this is what I am. This is what I'm doing. That's what [00:34:30] I could have been. So that's probably actually the most stressful thing about. It is actually trying to decide on something. So this year I think I want to be a country, an actually known country that has a a theme or something that's well known about it that I can that I can use. But yeah, it's still it's still up in the air. I have to. I have to get a list from Jonathan to find out who's doing what. So then I know what's available.

IRN: 539
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/qwu_robert_grieve.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003941
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089235
TITLE: Robert Grieve - Queen of the Whole Universe
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Robert Grieve
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2000s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Gay Auckland Business Association (GABA); Queen of the Whole Universe; Robert Grieve; drag; performance; theatre
DATE: 17 June 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Robert talks about being part of the Queen of the Whole Universe beauty pageant.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um, gosh, Well, going back to 2004. Jonathan and Kevin, Um, they were doing a, um, a show, uh, with one of our work. Um, we were doing a a conference, and they were doing a, um, a show there as and bimbo. And, um, Jonathan mentioned to me, um, would I like to, um he sort of came up with this idea and said, you know, what did I think of it? And I thought it was a great idea, and I said, Yeah, I'd be into it. No worries. So, um and especially we know when [00:00:30] he said what it was, um, and, you know, the charities that it was going to be, um, the the charities it was going to be. Yeah. I thought, Yeah, I wanted to be in. So the original idea, How big was it? How many contestants and and what kind of can you can you recall that kind of detail? Uh, it was actually quite good. I, um I I've sort of recruited some of my friends as well, so I probably would have recruited about three or four people. Um, got them into the idea. Interested [00:01:00] in the idea as well. I can't actually remember the exact number of people, but it was probably about 30 people originally. I'm not quite sure. Don't quote me on that. But, um, there was a lot of people, um, in the initial stages, and everyone was really enthusiastic, and and, um And I think the idea of, um, you know, doing rehearsals, and that was gonna be, you know, quite a lot of fun. 30 people is is is quite a a number. Had anything like that being done in New Zealand before? No, I don't think so. Not on such a big scale. [00:01:30] Yeah. And especially also too, with, um, with amateurs. You know, we weren't professional drag queens or anything like that. We would just run the mill blokes. Really? And just wanted to get into a frock. Was that one of the original ideas? Not to professional drag? I think so, Yes. I think that was the whole idea was to keep it amateur, um, and and not involve, um, you know, the more professional type of people because I think that would also be quite up putting to some of the amateur people because, um, you know I wasn't a theatrical person, [00:02:00] and I probably would have felt a bit, um, you know, if someone was, uh, professional dancing next to me and that, you know, I probably would have felt a bit, you know, 2nd, 2nd rate next to them. So and it was good because everyone was in the same boat, you know? So what made you want to do it? If if you weren't really, uh, kind of a a an out there, kind of, Um, I think it was just I just think it was just the thought of, um I suppose it was my only chance of sort of getting out there and performing in front of people. Really? I never probably would have that opportunity again. And, um, and also [00:02:30] because, you know, we were all in the same boat. You know, a lot of people hadn't done that before, either. And I think that was part of the fun, too. So can you take me through the process of of of how the rehearsals went and OK, well, what What we started was with, um the show basically is, um, it's sort of developed over the years, but in the initial stages. It was a, um, an act one opening where it was all of the, um all the girls. And, uh, they would, um we would do a dance routine and have it professionally choreographed. And [00:03:00] then we would end up, um, having a end, Um, as, uh, but at the end as well, we would have a dance routine at the end as well. That was an Act one. Then it started off. Um, in the early days, we had a costume, um, a parade of costumes, And it was in the country that you chose, Um, you would be in the national dress or something. You know, to, um, signify the of the country that you were playing, Um, and then the contestants would get knocked out, and then it would go through to, um, Act two, [00:03:30] which would be, um, probably more, um, the more professional side of of the people that were in the show that wanted to go through and do their own little skit. Um, and, uh, then they would be judged by the audience. And then, um, the the eventual winner would be the, um, the queen of the universe or in those days. It was the of the whole Pacific in the first in the first one. Yeah, it wasn't called Queen of the Universe. Did they find that after the first one that that it was just too small? And they, uh Well, it's amazing how many [00:04:00] countries you can come up with in the Pacific, because it was the whole Pacific Rim, and, um and I was, uh I was Miss Columbia, but there were people, like from the Caribbean and, um, from Australia and the Asian Rim as well. And, of course, the Pacific Islands. So that's amazing how many countries you can come up with. So what kind of costume did you come up with from Miss Columbia? Uh, Miss Columbia? Well, I was, um my because obviously, we have to come up with a byline and a and A and a drag name as well. And, um, my name was Maria Consuela [00:04:30] Gonzales Escobar. And I was, um, theoretically, in my byline. I was Pablo Escobar's estranged daughter who was taking over her his, um, drug empire from from, um, from Colombia. But I was living in, um in Miami at the time, so that was my byline. And basically what I had at the time was, um I had this red. I had this dress made professionally, and it was a red silk number. And it had big red, um, sort of like, uh, flowers, like hibiscus flowers. I don't know what [00:05:00] type they were, but they were big red things. And, um, I had this big red hat, a big black hat with all these red poppies over it, signifying the the drugs. And, um And then I had a, um, a little. And then I had, um I had put ice and sugar around my nostrils and things like that. So, um, that was that was my idea of sort of Miss Columbia at the time. Oh, that's right. And And I had a plastic gun as well. I had a plastic gun tucked down my brow. So, um, that was in the first show. Yeah. Do you have any [00:05:30] techniques for choosing drag names? Um, well, it's funny, actually. I, I do actually have quite a good way of, um I've chosen quite a few names for, uh for people in the show. They always tend to come to meet with some ideas. And, um, I probably would look at what country they're playing first. And then I sort of do a play on that as well. And, um, you know, some of the names that I've come up with was, um, a friend of mine, Shane. He was, um, Miss Turkey. One year, and I came up with Donna Kebab. Um, and, um, [00:06:00] there was one Miss Poland, Um, cut your toenails and, um, just Yeah, and I'd sort of come up with sort of different, you know, linked to the, um, the countries. Yeah. Can you recall what the feeling was like when you first went on stage and that first performed? Yes, I can. It was amazing. Um, Jonathan always says, um, you'll never, um, forget the feeling that you have when the curtain goes up and just that roar of the audience. And, um, the first show was at the Sky city, [00:06:30] and, um, it was and I remember we were standing there in the, uh, in a row waiting for the curtain to go up. And my leg just wouldn't stop shaking. It was just amazing. My my leg. I couldn't stop it shaking. And, um, when that curtain went up, Just the roar of the audience. And, you know, the lights going on us. It was just You just can't describe. It was just euphoric. It was just It was amazing. Yeah. And everyone. Everyone was the same. Everyone was all nervous. You know, um, as the years have progressed in that, um, obviously, it's not as not [00:07:00] as exciting now, But you still get that thrill when when the curtain goes up, you know, because, um, I I wonder what it would be like, You know, sitting in the audience watching us, you know, just to see when the curtains go up. You know what? It what it actually looks like. And And when we've seen, you know, the videos afterwards and that it must be amazing to be in the audience And just with just when the curtain goes up. So you've never actually sat in the audience? Never sat in the audience? No, no, I've I've done every show, and, um, this obviously is the last one. And, um, I'll probably have to hang up my high heels after this one, But But who knows? Something might [00:07:30] come come around That first show How did it open? What? What was the, uh, Gosh, um I can't remember. I know we had, um The song was, um I'm every woman. And also, um, I am what I am, um, was one of the opening numbers, and, um, I remember we rehearsed it for weeks and weeks and weeks, and, you know, you'd be standing in the supermarket and you'd hear it, and you'd just automatically almost break into, you know, the dance routine, you know, And it still happens now, after all these years, because you get to know when you're rehearsing, [00:08:00] you get to know the song so well, and the dance moves, you know, And we were at a party. Um um, must have been at the last show. And, um, we did, um, poker face. And, um, poker face came on. They were playing, and there were three or four of us there from the show, and we just automatically got up and just did this dance routine in the middle of the party. It was like a flash mob, but, um but yeah, that was a lot of fun. So the feeling from that first show can you describe can you can. You kind of encapsulate the kind of feeling you had from it. It was [00:08:30] the, um, as I say with the, um, the audience. Um, and because this was the first show, the audience were so excited and a at the after show, um, function people were coming up and they wanted to take photos. And, um, we had a professional photographer there as well. And, um, just the feeling afterwards, we're on a high. And, um, what we went through till gosh, I, I think we went through till about one o'clock in the morning. And then a few of us went down, um, down to one of the nightclubs in town, and I remember walking down Queen [00:09:00] Street. And of course, we were getting all the whistles and things like that because here we were, you know, a group of, you know, blokes dressed in drag and, um, walking down Queen Street so that that was a bit of a a bit of a hoot as well. But, you know, it's amazing. Um, there was never, never any trouble or there was never, you know, you didn't feel unsafe walking down like that. And I think people just knew, you know, we were out to have fun. And, um, you know, there was We didn't have any any problems going there, but it was It was, And I remember we go, we got home, um, a friend [00:09:30] of mine We didn't get home till about 10 o'clock on the Sunday morning. We got invited to another party down at the Hilton, and, um and of course, by that time of the morning after we'd been in makeup since four o'clock the previous afternoon, we weren't looking that attractive. And I remember we were walking down, um, down that little alleyway down from the Hilton down towards the, um down towards custom street. And it was a wind tunnel, and it was freezing cold. And I remember saying to my friend, I said, I just want to go home to bed and I and I remember when I looked over and he looked at me and he says, Love, you've got an eyelash on your cheek. So? [00:10:00] So if we weren't looking very, um, you know, we were looking a bit worse for her at that time of the day, but it was a lot of fun was the pageant always going to be an annual event? Or did it Did it rest on the success of the first one? And then I think, um, yeah, I think Jonathan, um, because of the success of it, um, I think Jonathan wanted to progress it further. And, um, I think also to a big thing, of course, was the sponsor and, um, getting, you know, the sponsorship for them as well. [00:10:30] And, um, so that would have been a big, um, you know, if if it hadn't have been successful. But, um, I think, yeah, the the idea was good. And I think, um, Jonathan said, rather than doing, um, 22, shows back to back, um, rather just doing one big show and leaving the audience wanting more and then going back to the next year rather than doing like, two or three nights in a row or something like that. That's quite special, isn't it? Because you spend months preparing for this, and then it's [00:11:00] one night. It is. Yeah, it's a big commitment. Um, it's two nights a week or or sorry, Sunday afternoon and generally a night during the week. Um, so it is a big commitment. And, um, you can tell the people that are there that are going to be really committed, you know? And it it is a shame sometimes, you know, like there might be work commitments where you can't actually make a, um uh, make a rehearsal. Um, as long as you know, you keep Jonathan, um, updated. And that because when you when you're rehearsing and you've got a routine and you get [00:11:30] used to standing next to someone and they're not there on the night, it does throw you out. Um, and you know, some people you know haven't been there like, two or three weeks in a row, you know? And it really does put you off when they actually come back because you're actually used to, you know, to dancing next to someone. Or, you know, you might have a partner, a dance partner there with you that you do in part of the routine. And if they're not there, it's actually quite hard. So Year two, what did you What did you come out? Year two? Um, now I came in year two. I actually wrote them down. I was actually Miss Greece. [00:12:00] and, um, I can't actually quite remember my name now, but, um, after saying that, but, um, yes, I had, um, at that stage, I was, um I did they what they call the body for life. And, um, I remember I went with my friend, and we we tried on a, um, costume at the beginning of the year, and I thought, Oh, look, this is this is the ideal dress that I want to wear for the opening number. So I ended up doing this body for life, and I lost about 10 kg, and I put this dress on for the opening show, and it just fitted me like a glove. And it was [00:12:30] so lovely. This this red sequin dress and I look at the photos now, and I had this long, dark wig, and, um, the makeup was done really well. And, um, so that was that was the second show. Um, the next year, I was, um, Burkina Faso, of all places. And, um, that was at the stage when, um, Madonna had adopted her little baby. And, um, part of my stage prop was I had a little basket with me, and [00:13:00] I bought this. Um, I wore this ball gown and I had a, um, like a leopard skin. I just went and got some material from one of the, um, shops. It was just a leopard skin print. And I wrapped it around me like an African sort of princess type thing. And I had this, um, straw basket, and I went and got these little plastic babies from the, um these little black doll. Things from the, um the joke, not joke shop, the costume shop. These and I had these babies in this basket, and people would say I could hear. Um, you know people [00:13:30] afterwards, after the show saying, why did you have a basket of babies or a basket of dolls? And I said, Oh, well, you see, there goes that. You know, that was part of the thrill that that was, You know, I was supposed to be selling babies as Burkina Faso. So, um, just thinking about your shopping and also your well for, for instance, dress shopping. How do you find that? Where where do you go? How how do you, um, dress shopping Generally, um, I do. Apart from the first [00:14:00] show, when I had my, um, outfit made professionally. Um, I generally just go to one of the, um the costume shops, like first scene or someone like that that are the sponsor of the show as well. And the girls there are fantastic, Um, and depending on what country I am, um, I'll try and get a, you know, a theme, um, to that as well. Um, I go and do my shoe shopping. Well, actually, I've still got my original pair of shoes. Um, that I got out in Oahu on Saturday. And, [00:14:30] um, much to the amusement of the locals out there, You know, there's these blokes in the shoe shop walking up and down in high heels and and that, um but they're very well made. And I've still got my original pair, and they're still just as comfortable. And I'll probably be wearing them this year as well. Little pair of silver sling backs, silver glittery sling bas. Have you found over the years that the heels get higher? Or, um, well, I'm quite sensible because I don't really like wearing the high heels, because I don't want to end up with a broken ankle, but, um I do. [00:15:00] I do get amazed by some of the guys that wear these huge, big I don't know how they don't break their legs because the heels are so big. And, um, I did buy a slightly higher pair of, um, uh, heels one year, and, um, I didn't feel comfortable wearing them I. I wore them for the opening routine, but I had to take them off for the closing routine because they were just too high. They weren't like, really stilettos, but they did have a, um, a high heel on them. But I didn't feel quite safe wearing them. So I ended up going to my [00:15:30] which I still have a bit of a heel, but they're quite good. Does the choice of shoe alter your persona? And dr, um it does, um, like these shoes They they were patent. Um, patent bright, bright red fire, truck red. Um uh, heels. And, um, I remember a couple of the guys like, Oh, they just look fantastic. And they were They were They were actually very nice pair of shoes. And I thought, Oh, yes. I could probably be someone French or something, [00:16:00] but probably looked like a French tart or something wearing them, You know, with my if I had fish fish, net stockings or something, but, um, the, um And then I had another pair, too. Uh, for one of the, um, countries. I was I was miss. And, um, I had this really bright, colourful, flowery pair as well. And, um, they were fantastic, too. Yeah. So, your third performance What? What did you, uh, the next one. After that, I was Miss Austria. And [00:16:30] sorry, I can't remember my name for that either. But, um, it was a Marie Antoinette theme. And, um, once again, I hired my costume, and, um, it was an amazing period costume. And, um, I had a big white wig made, and the wig was about Must have been about 22 metres made out of, um, Daron from the from the mattresses. And, um, it was huge. In fact, [00:17:00] I've got a photo of it here, and, um, it took a It took a night to make, and it was made of white, fluffy dacron. And I had, um, Christmas decorations like jewels. And that and I had this Marie Antoinette dress. Um, the only problem was It was a little bit too heavy. And I got the wobbles when I, um when I ended up walking on the stage with it, So I had to be careful, but I didn't put my head to to the side, you know, too far. Otherwise it would have fallen off it. It also looks like it. It would hit your head quite [00:17:30] quite a bit. It was It was very hot. Yes. Yeah. And that was the costume I took down to, um, to papa for the anniversary in te Papa. And, um, yes, that was so that was fun. Take Well, the boys had to take that down in the truck, all the all the head gear because I would never have got that on the plane. Was it quite heavy? Um, not really. It was actually made a base of, um, camping mat around in a circular cone. And then we just added all of that and glued it all on, um, sprayed it with hair spray, [00:18:00] and, um, and then I just put, like, a, um netting around it to keep it all in one pace. Yeah, but it was a very good and I wish I'd still kept it. Now, I don't know where it went. I think after coming back, it was a bit worse for wear. So but do you generally keep your costumes? And and And I do, Yeah. Yeah, I generally get them. Yes, I've got a drag bag under my bed, which has all that stuff in it. So, um, I keep all my shoes and and all the stuff, all the all the jewellery and everything like that, that all goes under the bed in a plastic container, and it comes [00:18:30] out once a year for the show. So you don't do drag any other time apart? No, no, no, no. It's just just, um just for the show. Yeah, It's, um just once in a year that we, you know, have a lot of fun, and and, um, you know, count it up. Although in saying that I did, um, for our Christmas party last year at work, I did go, um, in an Italian, um, dress because it was a country theme. And I went as, um, an Italian girl, an Italian slave girl. And, um, I got made up for that because it was fancy dress and I got best dressed. [00:19:00] And so I won a prize, so that was quite fun. But that's the only other time. So I'm thinking, looking at this photograph and the amount of work that's actually gone into this costume and head gear and actually the amount of money that's gone on to this I mean, it's quite a serious undertaking, isn't it? It is. Um, I admire some of the guys that spend a lot of money like you can do it cheaply. But, um, you know, I admire the guys that put a lot of money and effort into their costumes. [00:19:30] And, um, you know, it's amazing what you can buy spotlight and and places like that in the $2 shop. And you know, Jeff's Emporium and that you can do a lot of things quite cheaply. You know, you don't have to spend a lot of money on it, um, to make it look good. Um, but also, too, you need to have to be creative as well, you know, And I generally have to get some guidance on that as well, because I'm not the most creative of people either. Um, so I need to sort of get some tips, and And what have you to, um, especially, [00:20:00] you know, for for doing the wig for Miss Austria? Um, one of the, um, Steve, who's been in the show. Um, as well, um, he actually helped me put that together and and gave me some tips on what to buy and and what have you. So, um, uh, when I was Miss India just last year, Um, I did a, um elephants big sort of elephants head once again made out of, um, camping mat and sequins and jewels And what have you and, um, And they came [00:20:30] out quite well. And I remember I bought most of that from I think the $2 shop or somewhere like that. Do you think the costumes have generally got more complex over the years that you've been involved? I think so. Yeah. Um, with the head gear of nations. Um, because that that came in. Probably. I think it was about the third show. Um, where we had to do the head gear. Um, they have become more involved now. Um, you know, people spend, you know, weeks and weeks [00:21:00] on them. Um, I remember, um last year when I did my elephant head. I think I only started about a week beforehand and did it every night. But, um, you know, some people do it weeks in advance, and, um, they had become a very complex. Now, you know, people have, um, lighting on them, um, different things like that. And, um, you know, very, very clever. What's the most extravagant one you've seen? The most extra one was Gosh, was, um, Alistair, One year when he was miss, um, Easter Island. [00:21:30] And, um, his, uh, dress had a huge bustle around it, and it was lit up with fairy lights and, um, had a big, um his head gear was one with a big, um, Easter egg on the top as well. And that was amazing. Uh, and also Miss France last year, who won as well. His costume was amazing. It was like a, um, Marie Antoinette type costume as well. And, um, that was fantastic. Yeah, There's a very, very creative, um, people out there in [00:22:00] the show. We're so lucky to have that talent. So after Miss Austria? What? Who? Who were you there? Um oh, gosh. After that, I was uh, miss Hawaii. And, um, I was my byline on there. I was, um, travelling the world promoting my pineapple based skin exfoliating cream. And that's how I made my money and that I'd been in the show since day one and still hadn't won it yet. And, um [00:22:30] and my name was And so, um, And for that dress there for that costume, I went out to Oahu and I bought a big, um, white mumu type dress. And, um, a friend of mine had decorated it with some really bright, um, fluorescent jewel around with, um, flowers and all of that. And I had a big layer around my neck. And, um, I had been given or allowed. [00:23:00] I was borrowing this amazing, big, red haired wig, and it just looked fantastic. Yeah, and, um, and in that one there, too. Um, for that show, we did a itsy bitsy. Um, Jonathan had asked the people that have been in since day one to do a routine in the middle of the show. And it was, um, the itsy bitsy polka dot bikini, and we all had to get dressed in swimwear. And then I was dressed up in this in this, um, costume [00:23:30] there. And, um and luckily, it had a modesty flap on the front. And that was the That was the lay that, um so that was taken just before we went on stage. Yeah, it is rather it's it. Is it a yes, but I didn't wear the bikini, and these are the high heel shoes. And I had and I stuck a little, um, paper flower on the toes on the shoes. The colouring is amazing. Is this kind of colour? No, no, no, no, no. That was just, um I got the I [00:24:00] think I got that costume at one of the, um I think save Mart or something. And, um, that just happened to because, you know, I don't really have the physique to wear a bikini, and I didn't want to scare people off. Um, so I just wanted to have just a one piece with and, um and that's actually a floral cap. Had flowers on it, and it was like a swim cap with flowers on it as well. So that was, um and that was a lot of fun doing that one as well. Have you ever been in a position where you've dreamed up costume. It's [00:24:30] been made, and you look at it and think, Oh, my goodness. I'm not gonna I can't wear this. Um, there was one. It was actually the miss. I think it was the Miss Hawaii one when I when I when I had the the And, um, I remember, um, standing outside on the back deck and my partner came out and of course, I didn't have any wig or makeup on or anything like that. And here I was, standing with his white on and said to me, He says that doesn't suit you. And I thought, [00:25:00] Well, no, because I'm not made up yet, so of course it looks awful. But then I went and looked in the mirror and I thought, Oh, no, it doesn't look the best, but no. Once I had the makeup and the wig on it did. It did come up fine. Yeah. You mentioned, uh, some of the the the the founding members that have stayed with the show. How many are there that have done all the shows? Um, gosh, I think now there's probably only, um, there's only a handful probably five people that have been in it. Some people have missed shows, and then they've come [00:25:30] back the next year. Um, but right from the very start, Um, I think there's probably only about five people, Max, if not that, um, so that just shows, you know, the level of commitment. And, um, you know that people want to put into it. And I know that this year, um, there are people coming back that have, um, gone overseas and living overseas and come back for it as well. Um, so that's good. So I think it's gonna be a fantastic show this year, Really looking forward to it. What's the kind of mix between [00:26:00] people that have either done it over a number of years? And and new people? Um, there's probably every year. Probably there's about a handful of people that that come in as new new bees. Um, and, you know, we we're always welcoming to the new people, and, um, you know, we sort of tell them you know what to expect and what have you, and especially the people that have been there for, you know, for a few years. And that and, um you know, there's all you know. It's different [00:26:30] ages, all different ages, different shapes, sizes, ethnicities, anything, you know. But we all make it. Everyone feel welcome. And, you know, we're all there just to achieve the one the one outcome. And let's just have a fantastic show and have fun doing it. And, um, you know, and sometimes you know, you you might get someone That's, um perhaps a little bit more confident and dance moves than the others. And they'll sort of tell you, Oh, no, no, you should be doing it this way. Or, you know you should do it that way, which is always good, too, [00:27:00] you know, because there are some people that have two left feet. You know, not everyone's, you know, fantastic dancers. And, you know, there's been times, too, and I've turned the wrong way when you're supposed to go the other way. And but, you know, Jonathan says, Don't worry about it, he says, Just keep going because the audience is not all looking at you, you know, especially when there's a big group of people. Yeah, what about reasons for participating? Are there? Are there a wide variety of reasons why people come. Um, yeah, there is. I think, um, obviously, because of the charity side of it as well. And And, [00:27:30] um, but I think people just do it because it's a lot of fun doing it. And, you know, the rehearsals. And you do build up a friendship with a lot of the people, you know, and, um, socially as well, you know, and especially, um, you know, we have a lot of fun after the show, and and, um, we sort of get excited for the next one. And it's, um, all all different reasons. And the next one for you, after Miss Hawaii was, uh, I was Miss India. Yes. And, um, that was at the time when paul Henry was, [00:28:00] uh, involved or embroiled in, um, the India problem. So I took my my name as, uh, manita. Henry and I was the estranged half sister of Paul Henry, but I don't know whether the audience picked up on that one, but anyway, that was, I thought would be quite, um and yes. So I was, uh, from Mumbai, and I was a peasant girl from Mumbai. And, um so Yeah, so that's why I had my Indian sort of headdress and for that headdress, I sorry for my costume. [00:28:30] Um, I went and got a sari now, because I had never worn a sari ever before. One of the girls at work, um, was an Indian, and she wears a sari. And so I got a few tips from her, and I went out to a one of the shops out in and, um, one of the Indian shops there. And I said to the lady, I said, No, I need to wear a sari. Well, they were all over me like a rash. The girls in the shop, they couldn't believe it, that this bloke would come in wanting to buy a sari. And I said now it had to be purple, purple and silver because that was [00:29:00] the, um, the theme of the show. So she showed me this lovely sari. And then, of course, she said, Oh, no, no, you've got to have this. And she was because you have to wear a skirt under it. And then she showed me how to, um to wrap it around, because when I got home, it just went straight in one ear and out the other. So what we had to do is me and my partner we had to, um he was He got the, uh, the computer out the laptop and Googled, um, how to tie a sari. And there was this really, really good instruction video, this girl. And there we were. We put it on the mantle piece and we watched this [00:29:30] girl doing a sari. But of course, we had to stand, so we weren't getting it all opposite to what she was saying. You know, you do it to the right and then to the left and that. So we had a lot of fun with that, and we had to actually do that. Um, on the day of the show, my partner had it on his on his phone, and he had downloaded the video, so we could still do it in the dressing room before the show. So we couldn't, um So we couldn't forget how to do it so that Oh, no, that's the last thing we need is to go and look all like a Roman toga or something. So, um yeah, so that was That was a lot of fun. Yeah, [00:30:00] the preparation on the day of the show. Can you talk me through that? How? How does that work? Uh, the preparation. Well, generally, what we do is, um, the last couple of nights before the show. If the show is on a Saturday night, Um, what we do is we generally have a, um, full dress rehearsal on the Friday Um, generally, what we do is, um, for those that can take the day off, And I've always taken the day off and go, we get told a designated time to go, and we actually [00:30:30] do the whole show as a as a a rehearsal, Then on the Friday night, um, we have a full dress rehearsal where we don't have to wear wigs or makeup, But we have our costumes on because obviously the, um, stage director and the lighting people all have to get it all right. And the placings where we stand and have to get all that right. So we have to have the, um, the costumes on as well. So, um, that generally happens on the on the Friday night, and it's always a late one. Um, what we can do is because it's all very secretive. The Act two girls. [00:31:00] Um there is the opportunity now that we can actually sit and watch the act Two girls do their rehearsals where we haven't been able to before. So it's actually quite good to actually sit in the audience and watch them doing that. And and then you get to see all the little, um, you know, flaws or loopers that might happen. And, um so that happens generally on the Friday night or the night before the show. And then, um, on the Saturday um, we normally get called in, uh, at about four o'clock and [00:31:30] we get a designated time for the makeup to have makeup done. And, um, Jonathan, uh, generally organises makeup. Um, Phoenix cosmetics come in and they do all the the makeup for us. And, um, we get designated at a time, and then you do it in stages. In the makeup. You get all your foundation done first, and then you move to the next girl who might do the eye makeup. Then you'll do the next girl who do all your lips and and it's like a conveyor belt. And it's amazing [00:32:00] the transformation when you see people standing there, you know, in their t-shirt and jeans and that, and then they get transformed. And they get this. They look wonderful when they've had all their makeup done, you know, because fresh makeup looks really good. And, um, some people look so different in makeup once, once they've been made up, you know? And they look really glamorous. And you can understand why women do it, because it just does enhance, you know, their features. And, um, you know, some of the the the makeup we've had has been fantastic through the years. And, um, you know, Phoenix have done a fantastic job. I remember one [00:32:30] year when, uh when we were down in Wellington, um, we didn't have the luxury of having the whole cosmetic people there with us. And, um, there was, I think only about one or two of the Phoenix girls came down and we had to do the makeup ourselves where we had to do the foundation and all of that, and that was a bit of a struggle, but, um, but we got there, you know? And they put a chart up on in front of the mirror of what the eye makeup had to look like and And, um, And then they were there just to sort of do all the final touch [00:33:00] ups and that. So that was a real sort of, you know, learning curve for us all to, you know, actually do our own makeup. Do you find that a transformation actually occurs in people's personality as they go through that makeup wine? Oh, I think so. Yeah. People, it's, um, a really good friend of mine, Um, who since passed away. He, um it was amazing. We used to laugh, and we just had so much fun because he was such a girl when he was normal. And then as soon as he got dressed in [00:33:30] drag and had makeup on, he went all butch. And it was funny. It was just so it was just like a total total, um, transformation. And, um oh, yes. And another friend of ours, he couldn't wait when you saw him during the day. Typical rugby rugby. Bloke loved his rugby sports and everything. And then as soon as he got into a frock, he just had a total transformation. And he just became this pouting. Couldn't wait to put makeup on and jewels and everything, and it was just a total transformation. It was so funny. [00:34:00] And, um, you know, we we do have some laughs, you know, in the change in the, um, in the dressing rooms and that before the show, we do have laughs. It's That's, I think, you know, a lot of fun as well. Does that happen with you? That kind of transform that mental transformation? Not really. No, no. I still, um you know, I. I laugh at it because I say to people I said, no, don't forget, I'm still actually a bloke under all of this, you know, And, um, you know, and it is It is funny. You know, you might be sitting there in the dressing room and you'll be pulling on your tights and you'll say, Oh, no, I've got [00:34:30] a ladder or something like that, you know, or oh, I've snagged it on my toenail, you know, or something like that. So, you know, there's all these things, but, um no I. I don't sort of have a personality change or anything. You do camp it up a bit, I think, Um, and you know, and a lot. A lot of the, um a lot of the straight guys and that they just love it. You know, they just love all the, you know, the attention and and that And, um yeah, it's a lot of fun. How does the, uh, technical crew at the theatre react? Because, I mean, [00:35:00] those technicians are part of the theatre role. That's right. Yeah. Um, we don't really, um, have a lot to do with the with the technical guys. Um, when we're not actually rehearsing, Obviously, we're not allowed to be on the stage. Um, because especially like if the two girls are rehearsing And what have you with an O with us? Um uh, conditions. Um, but we don't have a lot to do with the technical, Um, the guys in the theatre? No, they're but they're all you know, very, very good. And, um, you know, they have the odd gig too, you know, when they see [00:35:30] us come in. And when we all come in and drag and they say because, you know, they've seen us, you know, at the rehearsals, when we're just dressed in jeans and t-shirts and and sneakers, and then we come in on the Saturday night, and we've just had this total transformation, you know? And you can see them looking. So you. Now, Now, who are you? I can't remember what you look like in your in your day. Where do you find that hard on stage as well. Um, actually trying to identify people. Um, you do? Yes. When? When we're all made up. And, you know, we're standing perhaps waiting for the curtain to go up and that and you'll You'll look [00:36:00] at someone and you'll think, Oh, now who is that? Who is that over there? And of course, you You forget what they actually look like, and because they do, they just transform. And, um, especially with wigs and, um, in costumes and that, you know, people do look totally different and drag. Yeah, there was some. There was one guy, um Who He came one day to rehearsals. It was on a Sunday afternoon and, um, he had come in drag. [00:36:30] And we were talking to us and, you know, doing the rehearsals. And I said to um my friend that was standing next to me. I said, Who is that over there? I said. And he and he said, Oh, that's such and such I can't remember what his name was. Um, I said, Oh, yeah, That's the guy that always comes in his old scraggy old clothes on a Wednesday night and here he was on the Sunday afternoon in his full drag and you would not know who who it was. It was amazing. You're in a remarkable position, having been in all of the queen of the whole [00:37:00] universes. And I'm just wondering if you can reflect back on some of the highlights. Some of the oddest moments, some of the funniest moments. Um, I think we always have something in a show that always tends to stick in your mind. Um, I remember, um, in the first show, Um, my very good friend who I mentioned earlier, um, he was Miss Easter Island. Um, and he had his for his head gear was [00:37:30] a, um it was made of foam rubber, but it was one of the Easter Island monoliths and how it had been made. It was, um, it had had sort of, like, fake grass all around the bottom of it. That was part of the head gear and this big, Um, and from the back when we were while we were standing to go on the stage, the guy that was standing behind him, and then I was standing behind him. I heard him say, Why is he wearing a tombstone on his head? [00:38:00] But it was just the way he said, and I think it was because we were so keyed up about going on stage. Well, I just took a fit of the giggles and it was so funny, just the way he just came out and said, Why is he wearing a tombstone? Of course I said no, he's miss Easter Island. It's a monolith. You've gotta look at it from the front and the other one the, um the other one that we had, which made me laugh One year was when, um, we were the backup. Um, uh, me and my friend were a backup with, um Miss Tahiti, [00:38:30] and we had he asked us he was an Act two girl and we had to walk on with two bowls. I don't know what I can't remember what the song was that he was playing, but we had to walk on with a bowl of dry ice, And so it would all come over, you know? And then they added water to it, and we all we had to do was walk on the stage. And I remember we started and we walked on the stage, and all I could hear was a bubbling, gurgling [00:39:00] noise from this dry ice. And once again, we got a fit of the giggles as well. And I and it was it was a very solemn song that he was playing. And I just and I just, you know, how you when he was trying to stifle a laugh or a giggle, And the more I tried to do it, the more it was I just couldn't stop it. And I was just I remember the sweat was pouring off me because here we were, carrying these two bowls of dry ice bubbling and gurgling away on onto the stage. Um, so that was one of the more, um, memorable ones. And, um, [00:39:30] I did one year. I was, um, one of the shows, one of the, um, shows in between act one and act two. I had to go up on to a, um they It was like a swing. And they raised me up way up into the, um into the heavens in the in the show and and part of the song, I would just come down and I was dressed as a priest, and I would just come down and, um I I, um, lip synced the words From what? This [00:40:00] prick. I can't remember the song, but I lip synced the the words that this priest was supposed to have said, And um and then they raised me up again like this. She said, Well, it was so high in the top. You don't actually realise how high it is at the, um the a T centre in those in that stage. And it was actually quite scary. I had a harness on, so, you know, I was I was OK, but I had to sit up there probably for about 10 minutes, and it's really high. And that was actually it was quite scary. And especially when you know, they, they lower you down really quickly, and then they [00:40:30] when they take you up really quickly as well. But that was, um, yeah, we've had a lot of memorable um, You know, um, occasions on the show, Um, we had, um one of the guys, um, slipped in one of the rehearsals and broke his, um, his arm or his elbow or something. So that was a big a big to do in one of the rehearsals. And we had to get the ambulance, and and we thought that he wasn't going to be able to do, um, the show because it was in sort of one of the rehearsals closer to the, um, the the show. But, [00:41:00] um, he managed, and he, um, actually managed to have his, um, costume made so he could still have his arm and a So So That was quite good. Yeah, but you do. You do have laughs. Every show has its laughs. Yeah, coming up to the final queen of the whole universe. Do you have any thoughts on that? Um, I know it's gonna be a really good show, and I am looking forward to doing it. Um, there's going. I can't obviously tell you too much about it. Um, [00:41:30] but I know there's gonna be a lot of, um uh, past past things that are being in shows past um, coming into it. And, um and I know that there are people that are coming back into it from being in it from the past few years as well. So that's gonna be fun catching up with all of those people as well. Um, it is probably going to be sad that it is going to be the last one. I don't know what Jonathan's or if he's got any plans on what's going to happen after this, but I'm sure [00:42:00] that, um, you know, if he does come up with a concept that, you know, he'll get the support of you know, that the girls, the girls that have been in it and, um which is which is great. Yeah. What's it meant to you? Um, I think it's just as I say. It's just once a year that this event that you look forward to, you know, and, um in the rehearsals leading up to it, as I say, you know, you you meet the these people every you know, two nights a week, [00:42:30] and, um, you do build up these amazing friendships with people, and, um, the only sad part about it is after the show is finished. You know, you get really flapped and, you know, because you think Oh, you know, that's it over for another year, you know? And because you've been on a high for all those months leading up to it, um, yeah, you think afterwards you think, Oh, you know, it's all over now. You know, you you go have all that not stress. But you have all that excitement beforehand. And then it's just all gone after, you know, a couple of hours show. Um, [00:43:00] but but, you know, it makes you look forward to the next one and what you're gonna do for the next one, you know? So as I say, I don't know what's gonna happen after the show. What Jonathan's got in mind. So we'll have to wait and see. Just finally, if you had an opportunity on the night to speak to the audience, what would you say to them? Um, I would probably say, you know, thanks. You know, for your support over the years, um, you know, And, um thanks to all the other cast members, [00:43:30] you know, it's been great working with them as well. And I think you know, um, that we have to take our hats off to, you know, to everyone that's been involved in in the concept, both audience and cast members as well. Um, especially for, you know, raising money for, um, you know, AIDS awareness. And, um, all the charities that are involved with the show, Um, I think, you know, we've done a fantastic job, and, um, you know, hopefully it will continue, Yeah.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089234
TITLE: Maggie Munford
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Maggie Munford
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2000s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Maggie Munford; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Queen of the Whole Universe; drag; performance; theatre
DATE: 24 June 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Maggie talks about performing in the Queen of the Whole Universe beauty pageant.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: And my husband, Graham, was, um, involved in the theatre, and I worked with Kevin in a community mental health centre. And Kevin was a nurse, a community mental health nurse and a therapist. And, um and Kevin was a, uh, a therapist and a nurse there. So I That's how we knew. And, um, Jonathan knew my husband through sort of the theatre work. And then Graham [00:00:30] passed away, and Jonathan and Kevin rang me up and said, Now we need to keep you busy. Um, would you like to sort of be in the show? And I thought they meant help in an administrative sort of way, you know, So off I go to their apartment, and, um, Jonathan said to me Now, when you're on the catwalk and I said Catwalk No, no, I'm not going on any catwalk. And then he play. He said, Wait till you hear the music. So he played the music and I said, Oh, I might [00:01:00] So it sort of started from there. It wasn't by I didn't go into it. So fully aware of what was happening. And then after that, um, I think it was 2006 was my first show, and, um, sort of carried on from there. Sort of a bit. Um, you get a bit addicted. I think. You have. You seen the show before? I didn't know anything about it. No. Didn't know. No. The only sort of thing I'd ever done before was, um, I worked as a volunteer for the AIDS Foundation. So, [00:01:30] you know, that's all I knew about that side of, uh, gay and transvestite or whatever they may be, whatever their gender may be. So that part of it wasn't a problem, But being on stage was, and perhaps, you know, have to go on a catwalk and learn in a few dance steps and things like that. So but, um, we had to go to a a rehearsal in Grey Library Hall, and I thought, [00:02:00] What am I doing? You know, an older person coming in here with all these lovely people? What? What? Will they think? What they think? What does she want? You know, what's she all about? Really? Sort of felt like I was going into their world, I suppose. And, um, how they would view that. And, um so there I arrive and There's all these beautifully dressed men coming from work, rolling up their trousers and putting on these amazing shoes with lights. And I was just captivated by that. [00:02:30] And, um, and they were Everybody was just so friendly. It was just lovely. And from then on, it was I was That was the start of it, I suppose. And it became like you, you know, got to know everybody. And it was just real fun. Have you been in any kind of environment like that? No. Never. Never. Never. So, um, no, it was just They're all just such wonderful people. And, um, just so I think that's what amazed [00:03:00] me, Talented in the outcome of their dresses. And what they what? Their ideas And, yeah, just lovely. Is there a common thread that runs through the people that participate? When you when you first walked in there, could you could you kind of, like, pinpoint one thing? Or is it such a diverse group? Not really, no, they are a diver. I mean, you get you're really outgoing people that are excellent dancers and movers and others who are thinking, Oh, I might have to stand at the back if that's what it's like, but [00:03:30] no, not really. They're all from different walks of life. So that was nice. That's what was nice. Um, yeah. No, they were very, very welcoming. And it felt like a big sort of family. Yeah, and so that was twice a week. And then I had to approach my son for headgear because my son works in theatre. He does sort of sets and, uh, for, uh, silo and for the theatre company. And that's what my husband [00:04:00] did prior to that. So I thought, Well, who can make my outfit? So I was Miss Easter Island that year, so he made me a massive Easter egg. It was bigger than I was. So I had this huge Easter egg covered in beautiful, glittery material with, um, it was incredible. So and then I had a little tail with lights in. So and I borrowed these boots from a couple of guys in the show. They were, um, prison wardens at the time. One was a, uh, also a nurse. [00:04:30] But they had these massive boots because you can't buy those sort of drag boots for women's size because it's generally the men that are doing it. So I just said I really want to because I was so small on stage. I mean, as soon as a man puts a dress on, they look fantastic. And they've got better legs than women, which is, you know, not fair and better figures sometimes. And I thought, How am I ever going to get any height? So I borrowed these boots that were like that, and I had my mountain sort of walking socks inside. [00:05:00] They were a size 10, but they were fantastic. They were pink. And my son said All you could see were these boots and this big egg, and they knew in the middle like you, it still didn't look any bigger. So, um, it's a challenge to actually get up there with them in the height wise, you know? But, uh, that was great. It was great. Yeah. And so what was the egg made out of? Because I can imagine that would be quite heavy. Polystyrene. It was made out of polystyrene, and then he sat it on Sort of like a helmet. Well, [00:05:30] the first time I put it on, when? When we had, um it was a technical rehearsal and a dress rehearsal. I didn't have it on a helmet. It was just strapped on. So it just sort of went like this. So So we had to do some quick alterations, and then we you learn a lot from each show. So, um, we put it into, sort of like a crash helmet. And then I had, um, sort of a piece of aluminium down my back, and we strapped it on that covered it with what I was wearing. [00:06:00] So that was it was more stable. And it felt better because then I could dance, so I'd be going to my son's workshop and putting my head gear on, sort of dancing around. How did that conversation go? When you initially approached your son, he said, Oh, yeah, he was really happy. Yeah, he said, That's great, Mom. If that makes you happy, I'll do it for you. And so each year after that, I go. No, I'm not gonna do it next year. It's too much. It's a lot of work. And so [00:06:30] and then I go, Matt, can you just do that head gear for me? I knew you'd be doing it So with the egg, Was that your idea to kind of come up with an egg type thing? Um, we sort of worked on it. And we had, um, like, brainstorming. That's one of the hardest parts I find is the headgear, because you have to, um, people have got to know what it is instantly from the audience. You can't do anything small or [00:07:00] very intricate because it just doesn't stand out. So to get something and something that may be quite, um, current and what's going on. So, um, yeah, that that's a problem. Once that's over and you've decided, you think good. Now you can start working on it. Yeah. So how does it work in terms of Are you given any ideas in terms of, uh, what you'll be wearing or the head gear or a name? Or is it No, it's entirely up to [00:07:30] you. No, you don't get any. You you had to choose who you want to be. So a blank piece of paper. And if you take your time like I do, a lot of the countries have gone. But then people make up sort of Miss heaven, or so you can have a bit of a It's not strictly a country as such. So it could be Yeah, yeah, yeah, it could be. So I think there's been this Garden of Eden and things like that. So that's been good. So who Who else have you been? I've been Miss [00:08:00] Miss a Miss China shine this year. I miss England. Can you go through and tell me the kind of head gear and costumes for those, um, miss Zaire? I was, um I had a a brown body suit made. I was an African woman, and I had a brown body suit made. And, um, my son made me a I [00:08:30] suppose the headgear would have been nearly as tall as this room with the rings, the gold rings, the neck rings of the woman and then on top, he made the most fantastic African woman's head with the earrings and even that nasal hair. And this would be, like, a couple of metres high. Yeah, it was. And, um, but the strange thing was that when we got to Wellington to do the show, um, we didn't have as such, um, a technical [00:09:00] address rehearsal with all our clothes. Uh, head gear on, and so and out the back of there wasn't very big. And I remember that there was, um, Neil. There was a guy called Neil and myself at the back, and I was trying to put this head gear on. And Stephanie, who was our dress? I said, You're not going to get on with that because it's not that high. So we were out the back and she said, You have to go on your hands and knees. So there I am on my hands [00:09:30] and knees, going on stage with her, sort of holding the head, and then I could She said, I'll tell you when you can stand. And then there was just about that much space to stand in before I went on stage. It was just so funny. It was really funny. But yeah, we got over it. Nobody knew. So, um, and then that was miss say and then, uh, miss Oh, no. I've been Miss Egypt. How could I forget? Sorry. Um, Miss [00:10:00] China. My son made me a fantastic noodle box. It was sort of about like I think it was Johnny's favourite, he said, I'm allowed to say that, um it was that big. And it was as the noodle boxes that you buy in the with all the corners and massive great noodle sticks with pieces of, um, food coming out like peas or whatever. It was amazing. And then with some Chinese writer on the outside. And then I had a Chinese [00:10:30] outfit, and it was that was amazing. That was really, really good. And then last year I was Miss Egypt and I and he made another fantastic head to and and it was incredible. I think it should have, um So how does he manufacture these? Um, he he's just he's very sort of artistic himself. So he just comes up with his eye and makes them at work. You know, he's got all the equipment to make [00:11:00] things, so he makes them at work. The noodle box. I just said to him, What shall I What shall I do? He said, I think a noodle box would be good, and then he sort of doesn't say anything about what he's doing. I keep thinking I wonder if you think is happening. It's getting nearer and nearer I go Any chance? Oh, he said Yes, it's ready. Come down and have a look. You know, you go down there and it's so exciting, Like, there's this wonderful noodle box there and it just sat on my head. Really? Well, yeah, it was really It worked it out from Prior What we didn't do previously. That wasn't successful, [00:11:30] and it just I just had a little sort of a window in it to see out. I didn't have any peripheral vision I only had. And in in the next one, Miss Egypt, I had very little vision at all. It was just no peripheral. So I had to talk to the person that was walking with me, saying, Where am I? You know, but, um, it was amazing. It was It got a really big applause when I walked out and I was just pleased for him. It wasn't about me. It was pleased for him. The work he'd done it was incredible. Does he? [00:12:00] Does he kind of mock it up in the computer and then it gets fabricated in some way? Um, that one was Yes, but that was the only one because he said it would have taken such a lot of time to if you were doing it individually, you know? And, um but that one worked really well. And then he dressed it afterwards. You know, I went into the workshop and I said he painted it red. He said, No, you have to paint it red before you put the gold. Otherwise, it doesn't sit right on there. But it looked it looked incredible. And it arrived [00:12:30] in a box at the stage door. And it was at the time there was something in the in the paper about Tutton. Carman has arrived, and it was the same day I said, See, I said, Johnny, you're in the paper and everybody is peering into this box. And it was lying in there. It looked amazing. So that travelled well to, um Well, uh, no. That one didn't go to Wellington, did it? No. It was a noodle box that went to Wellington. No, we didn't go to Wellington with that. Unfortunately, have you had any mishaps? [00:13:00] And I'm thinking about the the loading of such a large thing on your head could easily top over or No, I think he made it so well because he made armrest because I'm not that big. Um, when he puts it on, I said, that's really, really heavy. So he made, like, an arm, like a shoulder piece that you put on your sort of wiggle your way into it. And then and then there was sort of foam underneath it. So I know there was one occasion when I was [00:13:30] in it, and I felt quite claustrophobic, and I'd put it on quite early. The dresses had put it on quite early, and I was coming out quite late, and I thought, I can't breathe in here, so you have to sort of calm yourself down. But that was the only nothing else. No, the noodle box did get crushed going down to Wellington so didn't look quite the same on the stage, but no other than that. No, nothing. So it's quite important to have, um, dresses and support people that you can. It is, Yeah, because when [00:14:00] you come off, if you especially the neck, you know that I came off with you can't You can't see where you're going when you come off. So you don't want to damage any lighting or anything like that. So you just stand there, people. The dresses have been amazing. They've just taken it off immediately. So yeah, no, it's been They've been fantastic backstage people. It's always, you know, sometimes it might feel a bit chaotic, but it's it's got better and better as the years have gone on. At what point do the dresses in the backstage people come [00:14:30] into the I mean, are they right there from the get go in terms of when you're working out an idea? No, no, they come along sort of a lot later in the piece. And, um, when they can get enough dresses and then they have a sort of a headdress that will a lot of the time. The Act two boys will probably get if they need more help than you know. If we're in a changing room with other people, that's OK to help with the and things like that. And when you're on stage, all your headgear is laid out [00:15:00] so you can go to it. And then, of course, those dresses will go to the next person that needs to go on, so it works out really well, but they don't come on till later, and the backstage. People don't actually come on. Probably until the tech technical and dress rehearsals. Yeah. What was your favourite country? Egypt. I think. Because it was the whole dress was very beautiful. It was all gold and flowy. [00:15:30] And I found this, um, belt with an amazing buckle on it. So I saw that on the front and underneath it because I couldn't do the hand part of it. I just held my arms up here, so it sort of came out like a shape with all the gold draping. And it just looked I thought it looked amazing. And I had these boots that I bought for a dollar and sprayed them and put some of the material over it. So, no, I think that was I love that one. Yeah. How far out before the actual performance [00:16:00] do you start kind of thinking about the concept? Mhm. What about two months ago? Hm? Because you keep you keep thinking I'll think about that later. And then it gets nearer and nearer otherwise, but the the dress the opening number dress I'm having made at the moment. So, um, once you get things out of the way, it gets much easier if you can do it the earlier you can do it. But I know a lot of the guys they go on. I haven't made my dress yet and there's only like a week to go and they don't seem phased about [00:16:30] it. But I have to be organised, and I can really enjoy everything about it with the rehearsals and everything. What is the most enjoyable thing for you? Opening night? I love it. It's the most amazing experience I think I've ever The very first time I was so nervous and I thought, I can't do it. You know, when I was waiting with the curtain I can do, I'm gonna pass out or something. And once you once the curtain [00:17:00] goes up and you hear the people and the applause, you saying yes and you you just it's gone, the have gone. But I don't get those so much now. Now I help other people that have stage stage nerves. But, um, it's just the, uh, the applaud and you think and then it's over and you think I want to do it again? Yeah, because it's a lot of work. Just for one night which is, um, but, uh, they've never done it more than one night. So, [00:17:30] you know, that's the That's the best part of it. And it all comes together and you see people and you think, Who is that? Because the makeup and the wig and everyone just goes You look amazing. It is. It's incredible. What? What people have thought up and what they're wearing. Yeah, so just rewinding it a wee bit and looking at the kind of rehearsal stage. Can you take me through how the rehearsals work? How does that all happen? Um, well, we have a rehearsal at Grey [00:18:00] Library Hall on a Wednesday and then on a Sunday. Sometimes the venue changes depends on availability, and then we'll start off with, um there was somebody there, um, in the kitchen, a lovely guy in the kit was making cups of tea. And some of them who want to get I think score points for Miss Miss personality make a cake or something like that. And, um, and then Jonathan will either introduce [00:18:30] to the chore, introduce us to the choreographer and tell us what it's about. And then we just start going through the steps, and then he may take the boys aside and do different, um, different choreography with them, and then they could come back at the end of the evening. So that's generally how it goes and they talk about costumes, and they may fit some of the costumes that they're having made for the boys there. Um, and people talk about their shoes [00:19:00] and, you know, um, I know when I started and I looked at their shoes, I thought, I'll go throw mine away. These are far more exciting, you know, gone from gone, better and better. Do you Do you think they kind of try to outdo each other with the the kind of height Or, um, uh, not necessarily. I mean, some of them just can't wear the really high one. Some of them. I don't know how they wear them because they're huge. And I think they've probably done some damage in late later life [00:19:30] with their legs. But, um, they manage them really, really well. I mean, the way they dance on them is incredible. Yeah, I'm in awe of them. Is there any training for the boys to be girls, you know, in terms of how how people walk and how they hold themselves. With the very first year we did it, we did have somebody teaching us how to walk on the catwalk. I think he used to teach the Miss New Zealand contestants what to do. But I tell you what. The boys walk much better than the real girls on the catwalk. [00:20:00] And I used to think I'm gonna try and do what he does. You know, they were just naturals at it, but, um, no, but it's funny when sometimes, Um, I can remember when we were in the dressing room and we hadn't. I don't think some of the guys had their makeup on because they wanted to wait till the last minute to shave so they might have their dress on. And they're beard and they're sitting there sort of a bit like this. And I say a little bit of decor. And now you're a lady. You have to get your legs together, you know? Oh, yeah, I forgot. I'm a lady and they might ask you, [00:20:30] How do you do this or how do you do that? And, um but generally they do it very well. without any help. Yeah. No, no, I think they're incredible. I love it. Have you thought about being one of the boys? No, I haven't. No, because I think being a girl is far more exciting because you get to do a lot more. Yeah, um, you know, you get to have a well, II. I think I like doing the head gear. So when when you're a boy, that's, um you don't get involved [00:21:00] in that part of it. Well, that is a very important part of the show and that we couldn't do without them, But no, I prefer to To to be able to dress up and yeah, it's a really interesting idea where you've got girls being boys or girls being girls. I know it gets confusing. Some of the other interviewees have have said there's a There's a real change in their persona when [00:21:30] they change from one thing to the their stage presence. Do you find that? Um, just being yourself has to be on. Uh, you have got far more confidence. Um, like when you're on stage and you you can be somebody else when you put that wig on and when you put those eyelashes on and you go outside and people want a photo taken with you. Well, I don't. I love having that. But normally, having your photograph taken I, I don't like at all. So you do. [00:22:00] You do become somebody else for a moment, and they don't know who you are either. You know, I've been asked, Are you gay? Are you straight? Are you a male? Are you female? And it's fun because they don't know who's who or I mean. And even when I say to people, No, that actually is a male. They go, it can't possibly be. It's so beautiful, those legs And no, it is. It's definitely a male. So, um, that's that's fun as well, That part of it. So for you, what is the moment [00:22:30] where you suddenly have that a lot more confidence? Is it? Is it Is it like a As you say, putting on the eyelashes is putting on the wig. At what point does that change? I think it's when you're you're totally dressed as, um, you know, going out on stage and you've got everything on the whole works on and then and you see everybody else is all looking as glamorous as you know, with their over the top eyelashes and everything. That's when it is. It's like That's a real theatre. [00:23:00] Yeah, I think so. Can you take me from the rehearsal process into when you get into the theatre? What is that, like going from, um, Grey and and and then suddenly being in a theatre environment, It's, um it's a bit off putting because you're used to a much smaller space. Although Johnny will work it out and say, No, this is this is where the audience are. But when you actually go there, it's a lot bigger. Yeah, and and at first, the first time you did it. You [00:23:30] know, you sort of thought my goodness, and it's you feel so privileged really to be able. And I stand there And I think, you know, when would I ever be able to be on stage in the a T and you have a a dressing room? You feel so special. Yeah. So that's, um yeah, that is, um, quite a big change when you go there and and, you know, you have to adapt the steps. And so that's when when we do the tech rehearsals and the that's when we change. A few may change a few things to [00:24:00] accommodate the bigger stage. Yeah, but, um, you should get used to it. I can imagine for somebody just starting out that suddenly getting onto a stage, it would be a realisation that you're not actually doing this for a private show. It's 4 1500 people. Yeah, And I remember, um, the opening night and there was, um, Seamus, one of the new guys, and he stood next to me and he just held my hand and he said, I am just so [00:24:30] scared. I said, Seamus, it doesn't matter. You've got a long dress on. If you don't do your step right, don't worry about it. Just enjoy it. And afterwards he said, that was just so much fun. So, um, that's how I suppose. I don't know whether all the new people feel like that, but you can be. I mean, you don't want to let anybody down. You don't want to let Jonathan down in particular because he's worked so hard to to put this show on. So you you want it to be a success for him. [00:25:00] What's his directing style like, um, is very, very professional. He he lets you have a bit of fun to a certain point, and then you know that that's it. You know, enough now back to what you're meant to be doing. Um, yes, he's extremely and he's very encouraging and easy to talk to about things. Um, and I just think what he's done, the vision he's had and what it's come to it [00:25:30] is, is amazing. I think what he's done for the AIDS Foundation and how much money it's raised. He knows he is an excellent director. I think, Yeah, you know what I mean. He he just manages people really well, even if there are problems, he still manages it well, And, um but you know when he means business, you know, you know that you've got zip it up. Does he put his kind of business voice on? [00:26:00] That's enough. Of course, he's not only directing, but, uh, him and Kevin buffing them by comparing, Yeah, I know. So it's a big that must be quite interesting, seeing them in a different role on the night because they are not No, no and and um, seeing them transform into who they are and the dresses that they have made is they're amazing. Yeah, And they have a lot of fun as well [00:26:30] at the back, you know, there's a lot of fun goes on with because we're there quite early so that you're there for a long time. And, uh and some people get flowers sent to them and there's text messages going on. You know, you feel like for a day you feel very important. How long does it take to actually get prepared or prepare the the girls and boys for getting on stage? Is it quite a time? Yeah, it is. I mean, they put, uh, we we have to [00:27:00] go down to makeup in stages because it's a lot of work, and sometimes it can take an hour or so to do to put stage makeup on. So you you sit in a row, and so you have foundation. You have your eyebrows taken out and people are taking photos and joking all the time. It's being done, and it really looks so pasty white, and then you see them coming alive, you know? No, it's good, but it does take a long time. And, you know, you've got to get everything from your car into the dressing [00:27:30] room and and then you can't leave after that. So you have to make sure you've got plenty to eat and to drink. And yeah, so it is a long process. So by the time you know, you get home after the It's like you've been going for quite some time. Yeah, I think I got home about four o'clock in the morning from the last one. I don't know what my neighbours think of me, but still, And do you find that you have much support in the audience? Do you? Do you have a group of supporters? [00:28:00] Yeah, I have friends and, um, I give them. I've given them little flags. Before, when I was Miss Easter Island, I gave them ears and a little rabbits. So my son's always there and my daughter in law and my daughter and friends from work and, yeah, so it's it's really they're really keen to come. Yeah. Were they surprised the first time, or was it something that, um, I, I think, Yeah, they probably were a little bit, but, um, I've got one friend in [00:28:30] particular who's so supportive and she just says, Where are we going this week? Are we going out shopping for outfits and things, you know? And, uh, no, they're really They're really good. I think I think I'm a wee bit mad, perhaps, but I think I think it's great. I think I'm so lucky to have had the opportunity. Yeah, and I don't know what I'll do when there's no show. Well, this coming up is the last. I think it's I feel really sad, you know, because [00:29:00] it's, um it's a long time preparing, you know? I mean, we start rehearsals in May and you've got June and July, so it takes a You know, that's twice a week. So you're seeing everybody twice a week and I don't know when it's over. It's sort of like I think I mean, when it's over anyway, you feel very flat because you think, Oh, that's it. Now all the glitz and glamour gets tucked away, so but I still I mean, I always keep in touch with quite a few of the people, so when we go out for dinner or they come around [00:29:30] for dinner or something like that. So that's quite nice. Made friends that way. Um, but I don't know, there might be something else. Perhaps Johnny has gone up his sleeve. I'm not sure knowing him. He's got lots of things. But whether I'll be invited, I don't know. I have to wait and see the headgear once the once the pageant's finished. What happens to all that headgear? Well, my mesa is in my garden. She's slowly, you know, depleting. But she's been up there for a while. Um, [00:30:00] the noodle box that got put in the bin because it got it was some thin polystyrene so you could collapse it down. Miss Egypt is at my son's, uh, workshop, held up on high, and the Easter egg gradually just disintegrated in the garage. I think so. Yeah, they don't really. It's a shame they don't go anywhere else, but, um, no, that's what happens. I think that's what happens to most people in the costumes. What? What about those? [00:30:30] I still got those at home. Yeah, I don't know what I'll do with those, but after, um, putting them on a few times, though. And you're so hot in them. They don't last too long. Really? So. But it's nice there just to get out and have a look at now and again. Yeah. Hey, just finally I'm thinking that if you had an opportunity, um, on the night to address the audience, would you have any kind of, like, parting words, parting thoughts? [00:31:00] Oh, that's a hard one. That one. I think I'd just like to say to them how privileged I've felt about being in it and the people that are in it and that the people that are in it aren't, um it is not a natural talent. They've all gone up there and put themselves out there. And they might make a fool of themselves or they might. But they're not professionals. And I think sometimes I've felt that, um when we are there [00:31:30] that people think it's a it is a professional show, but we're not professional people. And, um, I think some of them think that Oh, you know, you didn't do that so well or you didn't do that so well. But, um, I think they need to know that and that it's hard to actually get up there and put yourself out there. But, um um, without the audience's support, either we wouldn't have been able to put it on. So it's wonderful that they come along and support it, too. Yeah. Mm.

IRN: 506
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/qwu_brian_and_matthew.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003939
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089233
TITLE: Brian and Matthew - Queen of the Whole Universe
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Brian Andrews; Matthew Hunt
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Auckland; Brian Andrews; Gay Auckland Business Association (GABA); Matthew Hunt; Queen of the Whole Universe; arts; drag; gay; performance; photography; theatre
DATE: 20 May 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Brian Andrews talks about photographing the Queen of the Whole Universe and Matthew Hunt talks about performing in the beauty pageant.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, um, the gay photographer and have been for a number of years since 1998. And then Jonathan introduced queen of the whole universe and requested my services as a photographer to help out where needed. When you say gay photographer What? What does that? What does that mean? Well, I worked for the, um, express gay magazine for a number of years. When I announced that I was gay in 1998 I thought, Well, since being a photographer, I offer my services free of charge. So I [00:00:30] went knocking on the express store and said, Well, here am I as a photographer. Excuse me. And of course they did. And of course, I went out on the streets 234 in the morning with people falling out of windows, taking photos, people doing charity work. Um, they just capturing the gay community as a whole on a perspective of fun and laughter and creativity with, uh, you know, theatre openings. We had lots of, you know, the big day out, all that type of thing, and we're just catching [00:01:00] it on film. And then well, in those days, it was film, and then of course, I'll publish the photos on The Express. But of course, as the years progressed, so did digital photography. And it's so much easier when you take date photos, download them on the computer and send them through to the magazine, and they get published for everybody to see. And also, too, I collected photos of everything that I've taken. So, um, to give you a concept of what the gay community has evolved over the last 10 or so years in that time, can you see changes [00:01:30] in the gay community in terms of, you know, visually, I think, Yeah, definitely. It's come out of the shelves evolved quite quite incredibly in the last 10 years, because at the beginning it was very not cloak and dagger. But the law reform had come through and and everything was fine. But you still had to be incredibly weary. Um, that, you know, perhaps you were a gay man walking the streets or at the nightclub and what have you. But as the years progressed, it's become more acceptable. And of [00:02:00] course, there's a lot now of people who my age group in the fifties that now feel comfortable, say well, Yes, I am a gay man. In the seventies sixties, we couldn't. And of course, in being comfortable with a gay man, you can actually say, Well, hey, I'm gay. And if someone says I've always said, If someone says to me, Hey, you're gay, I say, Yes, I am. So what? And that is the freedom that we have represent. You know, it's that freedom of being able to express ourselves and artistically, Um, we [00:02:30] can do that without any barriers. And as the years have progressed like I've actually got a 25 year old son And just the other day he said to Dad and and Matthew and I said, Oh, Dad, you know, if you wanted to be a builder and go on the building site with a pink lunch box or a building block, you can these days, and no one would even blink an eye. And that's exactly how we've progressed as gay people, you know, we we accept it. It's not so them and us anymore. We're Integra, you know, we're starting to be together. Do [00:03:00] you think something like the queen of the whole universe could have actually happened prior to the two thousands. I think actually, the queen of the whole universe has helped bring everybody together, to be quite honest with you. Um, how can I say that? We're we're all gay men getting on with our own world. And then Jonathan's collectively brought us all together, and we've created a pageant. Well, Jonathan has created a pageant show that is primary gay. However it's [00:03:30] it brings everyone to make people more aware, and as the years have gone on, it's even become more acceptable. So I think he's actually helped, um, being made us acceptive like Gather. There's a lot of friends and, you know, we talk about Oh, I've got the show coming on and they're really interested. Oh, get a ticket for me and even my family. Um, they're all when they want to know about the show. So it's sort of like sort of opened it up a bit, you know, for people [00:04:00] that don't really know the, um, the side of the the gay side. So, Matthew, what What's your background? Because you've been with the show for what? About 44 years. But yeah, 33 years going on three years. Um, yeah. When I first started, um, because it was a good opportunity for me to meet other people because I didn't really know much people there. And, you know, I'm a bit on the quiet side, but, um, yeah, it was fantastic. And, um, I was [00:04:30] one of the contestants last year. So how did you get involved? How How do I get involved? Um well, I got involved because Brian he pushed me to think, Oh, come on. And I said, Well, like four years, Um, when I first saw the show, I said, What's the Queen Universe? And Brian said, Oh, you'll love at me So we went to Wellington, and that's when we saw the show. And Brian said, You'll be doing that next year. And I said, No way you you won't see me there. And next moment I'm there is, um, Miss Samoa. [00:05:00] So yeah, it was a laugh. And a lot of people want to know about the show of my family and that, and they said, Well, it's a beauty pageant. It's, um you know, you have funny names like Miss in India. I own a dairy or, um, my name was, um Mr Fell off and everybody just up laughing. You know, it's so fun. And the people are great. I really love them to Yeah. Have you done any type of performance before, or was this the first time? This was my first one. normally, I'm a shy person. [00:05:30] I think I created a monster since I John and the queen of the interviews. So take me through how how a really shy person can then blossom and and and be on stage. How how did that evolve? How did that? Well, I think as, um, you know, dressing up. Um, once you dress up with the makeup and everything, you sort of, um, a different character. And not only that, [00:06:00] um, when you're dressed up, you get, uh, different, Um, people, you know, sort of treat you in a different way. Which, if I was dressed up in plain, they go Oh, hi, mate. How are you? But in in a different costume, it's like, um, what do you call it? Yeah, the eco. Um, it's amazing how people react. People gravitate to you, don't they? And that's why I find with photography, you can go to a movie or a stage show and just [00:06:30] normal and, you know, with the handbag switched over and watch the It's great, but you put a camera around your neck or dress up and and drag and go to a show. Oh, everybody comes to you. We did a cruise around Australia because I'm sick at the moment. So we've been travelling a lot. And, um, Matthew went and drag it Miss Samoa on the cruise ship and the people just absolutely came to him. And so much so on this Hawaiian evening that the the company director, the director got really put off because no one was [00:07:00] coming to him with all his organised friends. They were gravitating to Matthew being Miss Samoa on boat. I didn't mind Gap. I didn't mind having the highlight. You know, everyone taking photos of me. It's like as I said, it's totally different. It was a bit like Miss Samoa has arrived, you know, So and of course, this great big screen on the on the ship and everywhere Matthew went is Miss Samoa would be following, and everyone would be cheering, clapping and throwing their bat on the air. But I did ask, um for Jonathan's permission is Mr, um, [00:07:30] Express herself on the boat. But need we say that we all did this in the middle of the Indian Ocean at 35 to nearly 40 degrees at night. And Miss Saar's makeup and clothes were dreaded by the end of the night because it was just so hot, but it was great. It was a wonderful fun. That first rehearsal you went to for queen of the whole universe, Can you recall [00:08:00] how you felt? What, were you nervous? Were you? Oh, yes. Um, I was nervous, Um, because I can hear all the people behind the curtains because I was, um, in the opening. And once the curtain just opened Ah, I was, um, nervous. And then once we start going, I was really excited. You actually said to me when he first did the show, he said it was quite thunderous when the curtain went up. That's exactly how you described It was, And it was quite hearing [00:08:30] all the people clap and go. Yahoo and the curtain go up. And the music, it was quite I can't explain, Gareth, but it was just that fantastic. Like all the audience or the the noise was like, Oh my gosh, this is what it's like on the stage. Yeah, so on the other side of the curtain, actually in the audience, Brian, that's where you are with my camera taking photos of the Queen of the Universe between people's heads and then front front You were there, right at the very start. When and can you recall the kind of brief [00:09:00] that Jonathan gave you in terms of what he wanted to kind of capture? He just wanted to create a show that was going to raise funds for the, you know, the the charities involved and and to create fun. He's always always insisted that it has to be fun and creative and colourful, isn't it? So, knowing that what kind of images were you trying to trying to capture what, well, just really the and photography You mean just really [00:09:30] the people that have taken the time to to dress up, you know, whether it be the audience or on the the actress on the stage, because, you know, sometimes it's hard to distinguish between the actors and the audience because they get everybody gets so involved. And in the auditorium at halfway time. Or or afterwards. You know, there's there's Matthew, all dressed up there as Mr and You've got, you know, one of the queens from road or down Hamilton Way or or even the, um shall [00:10:00] I say, the straight community taking their time to wear a jacket. You know, there's a woman, 68 litre jacket, hair all done up, flags flying. And it was just so exciting. And to think they actually took the time and trouble to to go out of the way like Matthew's work crowd, they all dressed in and, um, coloured tops and the sunglasses. They just all made an effort to dress up for this. And, um, it was great. What are the key [00:10:30] things to making a good photographer who captures moments like that in terms of like working with with the crowds? What what are the key things? Just jump in and be incredibly friendly and say something totally outrageous. You know, How's your sex life? Or, you know, or you know, Come on, let's just do a dance and let's do a stripper, you know, or my favourite saying, because I'm a wedding photographer and I've done that for 25 years. I've always said to an 80 year old, you know, at a wedding or or the thing of the queen of the universe Listen, darling, I'll take your photo. You're the [00:11:00] best here And once I've taken your photo, we'll go clubbing. And don't worry where you Where we go, there'll be. You'll be totally safe with us. You'll be surrounded by 200 men and you'll be totally safe. Oh, they just think it's fabulous because they've been put on a pedestal. They've been made extra special, especially a 65 or 85 year old grandmother that's coming to see their son or daughter on the stage, you know, and they just love it. So by capturing that, talking to them and chatting to them and say, Come on, let's have a photo And so I grabbed a couple of the actors or, [00:11:30] you know, Jonathan and Kevin, or Buffy and or or whatever that throw them all together and take a photo and they just love it because then I always get down the email address and and shoot it off to them. As it's a gesture, it's to say thank you you know, for being part of the show. So can you describe the audience? Is it is it Oh, they're totally charismatic. Totally. Yes. You have the normal lawyer, the the normal housewife who's on the night turned [00:12:00] into something like Madonna, you know, or or, um, Superman or something like that, because they know its creativity. They've known that the person they're going to support is, um, on the show to raise funds. And they're colourful. So let's just join their world for a few hours. And to be totally honest with you, when they've gone for days on, they've said, Oh, wonderful. Like my aunt. She went and she said we should find her grandmother and I mean her Her grandson said, [00:12:30] Um, oh, you know, went to the show. Hello, I'm here And he said, Stop it, you know, joking me. But she was just mimicking the gay guys dressing up as women, you know, and just being funny. And she loved it. And she talked of nothing else for about a month or two months afterwards. So you have it in a nutshell. It's a bit of fun, Felos, just for a few hours. But those few hours can obviously be a memories for for a life time, especially in the capture bomb. Um, film [00:13:00] and Matthew, you were saying that your your family comes along, and, um, I had, uh, our group of friends and they dress up in love a lover in the, um, the all around. So, yeah, it was all together, but my family, um, they came, and they really enjoyed it as well. So, having never done a performance like this before, how did you present it to them in terms of Hey, I'm doing this. I just said, uh, well, [00:13:30] you know, uh, my family's, you know, really laid back and down to earth, and so I'm doing this. Mr said, Oh, God. On here, someone's representing our country. But, um, yeah, um, I just come out strong, and, um, my family is always acceptable. You know what I do which, um, gives me a good support. We had a family gathering yesterday, and I said, When's the next one? I'll be there. I'll be there on call, you know, where do we get the tickets? So yeah, they're very supportive of Matthew. Definitely. [00:14:00] Yeah. It must be really nice having that support. Yeah, well, my dad is a minister, and, um, he's, um, even though because I'm his, you know, his son. He he loves me dearly, and he loves Brian. He treats Brian as the same son as well. So yeah, I got a really good loving family. Had they been to anything like that before? Well, no, my dad hasn't, but, um my my sister and brother and I've never been [00:14:30] so no, it's really good. And what was the Did they like it when they said yes, they want to come again. So they were put off, and they thoroughly enjoyed it. And of course, she was standing up when came on. Your sister was standing up and clapping and waving. And, of course, we had flags and ya and we all knew where it was coming from the balcony. Now, was it gonna be worth it? Because I think there's going to be 20 of them. Yeah. Yeah. So do you do [00:15:00] I? I know that some of the contestants, um, with their supporters will give out little packs of either flags or or stuff. Is that something that you do? Um, they did all flags. Wayne organised all that and, uh, yeah, so I'm not sure what they're gonna do this year because they're going to be miss. And, um, with the, um they're gonna do bits and pieces or do a photo of my flag. I'm not really sure I haven't quite. [00:15:30] I think we'll do a flag with the colours that he's wearing for the head of nations and, um, make a flag out of the material or whatever like that. But last year, we were all up there standing. There was oh, about half a road standing and carrying to see it on the DVD. So this year What What colours? Um, I'll be gold and black. Hm. And, yeah, it's just glamorous glitter. We went to Thailand last year, and, um, we went to Bangkok and we got, [00:16:00] um, Valley highs opening number or made, and we also got the head gear made. So all the time we were in Thailand, we were on tred journey for 3. 5 weeks. We were carting this headgear and every plane. You wouldn't believe it. We went to so many planes internally, but when we actually came home, they wouldn't let us put the headgear on the plane. So what should I do? Should I put it on and on the plane? But, um yeah, so I had to wait until it, um it was shipped to New Zealand. [00:16:30] Can you describe the head gear? What? What does it look like? Um, it's like a big star thing. Um, sort of like a tradition of what the Thailand were, um, gold and just out there a bit like Statue of Liberty head gear, isn't it? You know, with all the spikes and what have you all the glam and colour. But it was made Honestly, we we found it in Thailand, didn't we? In the store. And he said we Matthew wanted a few alterations because even though he Matthew is very [00:17:00] quiet, he's very articulate as to what he wants. And he stipulated to the to the store owner what he wanted. And they said, Yeah, come back in an hour. And we came back now and this is exactly what Matthew wanted. All done. So it was really good, you know? And of course, stay with his costume. Um, for the headgear of nation system was very high. Matthew was quite insistent of what he wanted and draw a picture. And we went and got the material and the way we went. So it's going to be quite stunning, but you ought to see the opening number. Wow, they done a wonderful job in Bangkok. [00:17:30] It's all red and silver, and it just fits to him like a glove, you know? But there were six girls all around me measuring me, and they said that they will happen in three days. And it was out there and then with with this bottle shaped dress, that's all like little C DS hanging from it. They've made this Maros of a Boer that's about a foot in diameter. And it goes from here to, oh, about 8 ft 9 ft and he wraps it all [00:18:00] around his arms and everything. And of course, it just offsets the garment, doesn't it? It looks fabulous. And they put red and black, um, feathers all through it. So it looks you can imagine it looks really awesome. So did you have an idea of the shops that you were going to go to before going to Thailand? Did you know that the Yeah, I had a few tips where where to go. But, um, it was quite hard to train. Um, look for it because it was in the big market and it was like a Robert a rabbit rabbit. Warren while, [00:18:30] um, to work your way through and I finally eventually found it. And we actually found it by Excell because a friend of ours is a and he goes and gets all his outfits there. And he said I said, Well, where is it? And he said, Oh, Brian, it'd be just impossible to to tell you, but if you get to this place, you know, just go right into the middle. So we went up and down around corners and and then all of a sudden, we came to fantasy land. Oh, Matthew just had a field day, [00:19:00] and so trying to communicate what you actually wanted, how how did that did you have an image that you could show or how well, it was actually on the, um, mannequin. And I just said, um oh, my gosh, that's what I wanted. And she sort of, um, pointed because she couldn't speak English, and then she showed you the material and we just, um she just went away and made it in three days. But then she, um, through her creativity, because [00:19:30] Matthew wanted his arms a bit more softer. She made the spa totally through her own fluish on Big Bow. You know that I've described the black and the red one for so long, so you can wrap it around. And of course, it just it looks perfect. So she did a really good job, didn't she? But as Matthew said, you can't speak English, you know, and you hope that you're paying the right money because you wouldn't have a clue, you know, But, um, all in all, it only came to $200 for the dress plus the bar. So that was pretty good going. That's New Zealand currency. [00:20:00] Because, you know, as you know, um, the head gear of nations, we spent what, nearly $200 on the material and then another $150 getting it made. So because Matthew said, Oh, we should go back to Bangkok and get so Actually, people are well, and and you you specifically are taking it quite seriously in terms of what you want to wear how you want to be presented. Um, Well, since I'm in the Act two, that sort of [00:20:30] counts more. Definitely, because you you've got to put, um, show that, you know, you've taken time and and then you spend and it's not work, and it's not a chore. It's fun. So you want to get the best out of Well, Matthew wants to get the best out of his out of ego as much as possible. So hence the reason you know, we we're fun, you know, get down to detail, don't we? And then we go and get all the joy, the sparkles and all that sort of thing. We we drop, don't we? [00:21:00] How far out before the performance do you start thinking about what you want to do and how you want to do it? How about about about a year or there abouts because we know that it's coming up. So you really start thinking about you and you draw your pictures of what you want. Matthew is a wonderful drawer. So, um, he sketches out what he wants, and then we finally get told what colour the opening number is, and then we just take it from there. And then as we go along through all the shops and, you know, overseas, [00:21:30] which we have done a lot, we say, Oh, that would be good for, um, Miss Samoa or Miss and Oh, that would be good to go with that. And as you collect, don't you as you go along? Yeah, Yeah, I'd say it's about a year. Gareth, Um, by the time you start putting all things together, I've been in a two. You sort of had to sort of plan a bit faster because, uh, the months go really fast. You need need to organise. There's a lot to do on Act two organising your [00:22:00] dancers, costumes and everything which I haven't done before. So what are the things you need to organise? Got dancers? Costumes? Um, I have to organise, um, How I'm going to do a story in five minutes with the dance and everything. Um, also organise my my dances and, um, the costumes with everything, um, we do the the props, and, you know, it takes [00:22:30] a lot to nut out exactly the story that we want to create. And then once the story in your mind is created. You then have to think of the props concerning the the the story and who we're going to have as actors and actresses and also the, um the general colour And the theme that runs through and the also the the funny highlights, isn't it? You know, you don't want it to be a boring five minute sketch. You know, it's like once we leave this interview, we're going to go [00:23:00] and get blow up monkeys. So it just gives you an idea of, you know? So we thought a few blow up monkeys lying around the stage or hanging from the from the hair on window and that sort of thing, we add just a bit of Plec, won't it? So we're getting there, Gareth, um, I got everything put together, and, um, we also got a choreographer to do a few dance that I don't know, but I did the first one, um, which is the island dance? Yeah. So, yeah, it's all put [00:23:30] in together, and, um, it'll be all finished when the time comes on July. Where do you get lot of monkeys from $2 shop? Victoria Street. I just found it We found it the other day and said to Matthew, That's what we need. We need a few of those all lying around, Sort of, um, big, too. They're not exactly small. They're about 2. 5 ft by about three. Because my, um my theme is the island thing. So yeah, [00:24:00] heaps of monkeys and bananas and we're doing adaptation of the South Pacific movie that was out all those years ago. And it's a love affair between a captain and an island muscleman and miss, and whoever ends up with her is a lucky person and trying to find the muscle. Man, that was a chore. But we finally got them. So, um, it's been a lot of fun. Did that mean going around all the gyms and just scouting [00:24:30] it was actually it was actually getting the fingers working and phoning, you know, And, um, we managed to get two very creative people through my photography. I took photos of which is a leather bar in Auckland, and they put us on to these two muscle men so because we want them in lava, lava and, um, a necklace, don't we? But at the end, when Matthew is doing the, um a a dance [00:25:00] routine right at the end. It's all very colourful. So all we want them in black boots, Speedos, and that's all. And we thought, Oh, we're going to get someone to do that But they've come back and said, Oh, we'll just wear a jockstrap each And we thought, Well, that's even better because it really throws it all out into the audience. You know, Gareth, I wanted in my group a bit of mixture, you know, two good looking muscle guys. So there, you know, because you've got a mixture of, um audience and you've got straights and gay and, you know, therefore the the straight woman was that Oh, my gosh, [00:25:30] that's a waste. Seeing these two good looking muscle guys in there with us, you know, dress up in drags. Yeah, and I've always said and Matthew agrees with me, have always said right from the word go that it's fabulous, the friend of the whole universe with all the DRS and what have you. But to actually add a bit of male to the show just offsets everything. It's like a yin and yang. And if you've got a couple of muscle men in the show. The audience goes wild, isn't it? So that's what we want. [00:26:00] That wild effect casting must be such a chore. Jonathan's put his hand up to oil the muscle men down. I leave that to Brian. Yeah, because we were actually Matthew and I work incredibly well because Matthew is very artistic and very, you know, he's the main, um, doing the show. And he loves dressing up and drag and what have you. Whereas I'm totally the opposite sort of. I'm more sort of a, you know, boring old photographer, you know? [00:26:30] But with the yang and Yang situation, it's really good because he throws in a woman perspective and I can throw on the masculine perspective. And between all mixing, it comes out right away, doesn't it? Yeah. So are you photographing during the rehearsal period as well for our show? Yes. For our part at we've been photographing. And what kind of photos are you taking? The people doing funny things. Like they were just learning without them even, um, looking, you know, like we've [00:27:00] taken a photo of a friend who is practising one of Matthew's dance moves with his tongue hanging out and going, I got you know, you go click, you know, and also to a collective photo of everyone all hugging each other and kissing each other and doing mad cat things. Because at the end of the day, it's all about fun. It's all about getting together a ship for those few months leading up to the show, the show itself and the aftermath of the after Globe, really, of of the whole universe, because you do make [00:27:30] you do cement a really good friendship with the cast and crew, and I know it's a competition, but I just want, uh, at the same time, have fun and we've got a fantastic group. So yeah, it's it's great. How do you set the scene as a photographer to take kind of documentary images of people rehearsing without them feeling that they're being exposed? You just do it surreptitiously. It's a bit like taking photos of a couple [00:28:00] getting married. You're right at the back of the room, and you put the zoom lens on so you're not in their face. You don't want them to feel intimidated by the cameras. So what you do is you and I've always sign up with weddings. You know, you always stand 20 to 30 ft back, put the zoom lens on, and they don't even know they've been photographed in category. And that is when you capture the best moments because they're not all pro posed or or you know, anything like that. And the photos come out very creative, don't they? It's been a lot of fun, [00:28:30] and also, too, Dean Dean has been wonderful because he's done a lot of the rehearsals over the years. And he's taken photos of the people's, um, these guys that are bearded, mowed t-shirt, shorts, stockings and high heels because you've got to have the high heels to learn to do all the movements on, because that's what's going to happen. So it's quite hilarious, actually. How have the high heels been for you? At first, I was like, Whoops. Um, you know, I've been [00:29:00] almost spraying my ankle, but, um, you get used to it, but, um, that's the funny bit. Dancing in high heels, trying to walk. Yeah, when does that transformation happen from being Matthew to say What? Is there a point that you can feel I'm actually now this other person. Yeah, it's like, um not, um, how do you say it? Like Dr Ja? Um, it's a different transformation [00:29:30] here. Um, when I dress up as Mr you just get all this, um, different. Um, how do you say, Brian? Just different reaction from all the people you know. Say, oh, can I take a photo? You know, it's like I'm getting more attention, but which I'm just Matthew, they say, Oh, hi. Um, yeah, Brian's over there, or, you know, but I just notice the difference when you're dressed up as the ego, too. Once you Once, Matthew, [00:30:00] I I've actually know I can actually tell you a bit of a Matthew because I see it as a perspective. You know, he goes upstairs to try on his outfit, um, to make sure that everything's looking right for the show and he'll go up with Matthew, you know, And then about an hour passes and I'm watching TV and then he comes down floating, you know, look at me all soft and Tom, you know, and throws the stress around and what have you and then he's almost he's just become this other character, you know? And there's another character, because once [00:30:30] you've got yeah, once you off the ego, once you've got your makeup on and what have you you just instantly. It's a bit like having as I mentioned before, a camera trapped around your neck. You become another person. Does the voice change? Um, I think so. Yeah. Um, I'm not sure whether he could wear tight, um, Speedos, but yeah, um, you're sort of trying to, um, sort of speak differently because the the makeup and everything, [00:31:00] uh, the costume, um, as a different character. Yeah, but if it's Brian, then I'll just talk normal. But when you're talking to, you know, um, the audience and they they say, Oh, I love you. Thank you. You know, you sort of change your personality. Yeah. Let's put on perspective from Wellington. Matthew was Matthew. Then he became Miss Samoa. The show had ended and we had a wonderful time, as we all know. And then we decided to go and have hamburgers. And what have you at two. In the morning? [00:31:30] And there was Matthew pulling up the stress today. Matt going to the takeaways. I'll have this and I'll have that and I'll have that. And then he goes it all, then goes and sits down. And then instantly he becomes Miss Samoa again and eats because he was worried that people were going even though he's dressed up in drag. He was worried that people were going to rip him about it, that he was in drag. But then he would go and sit down on this and he's eating it so delight for and then he would someone would walk past us. Come on, should I sit on my lap and all this sort of thing? So it's just really just diversity [00:32:00] terribly throughout the whole night, and that's what I mean. Um, the the reaction on the people was different. I thought, you know Oh my gosh, they will see a dragon they'll pick on. But no, it was a different reaction. Yeah, yes, that was, uh was good. Oh, I never get the the looks that got buying a takeaway burger at two in the morning in Wellington. It was just, you know, it was just amazing. And he was just trying to be so botch. [00:32:30] But he almost forgot that he was in a dress so instantly. You know, you see this venom creature with this deep voice wanting this, that and everything on the burger stand. So do you think you become more aware of, um, mannerisms of other people in terms of, like, feminine mannerisms? You know how how you walk, how you hold yourself, how how you move your arms. Um, yeah, it's totally different once you have a dress on you. Sort of like, you know, you [00:33:00] walk like like a woman, and, um, try not to sort of walk, you know, clumsy because Jonathan showed us how to walk in it, so yeah, but once the party is over, you know, you can just I know that you know, you're not supposed to speak your week but a few drinks and that, you know, oh, Queen uni is over where you can be more, but Jonathan is No, you always cross your legs, you know? You know, um, because he's really, um, strict when we're on stage [00:33:30] that this is how you walk. This is how you do this and that. Yeah. We take a lot of directorship from Jonathan, and they are both absolutely fabulous because they have given us all a chance to be our alpha ego. They've given us a chance to raise money in a fun way. You've given us a chance to just laugh at ourselves in the gay community. And honestly, if it wasn't for his direct friendship and through how, [00:34:00] um Miss get to where he is for a we. As you know, we've never done a before. Um, we wouldn't have been where we are. We really, because he is just a lovely person. Jonathan's funny like I remember, um, he called six names and he said, OK, guys, I want to see. I'll call these six names. All the rest can go home. And, um, I want to see you and me and Peter look at each other, Dominic and he goes, [00:34:30] And I said, I think because we were really good, um, this way he kept us and probably want to put us on a special on the front. And we actually got there and John thinking, OK, you guys are are here because you can't walk like a woman, I said, Oh, OK, I thought I said to myself, I thought I walked down perfectly and so we had to spend one hour to walk like a woman. Yeah, and I said, Oh, Peter, Well, never mind. Will get popular. And then [00:35:00] next moment I Yeah, in Wellington. I didn't expect, um I got a reward. Um, Miss Wannabe, I said, Oh, well, it's nothing. You know, At least I try it. So yeah, it was funny. Yeah, but I love Jonathan. He's just so funny. Yeah, he's got a, um, characteristic of being incredibly jo and incredibly [00:35:30] helpful, but with with the directorship like a rod of seal in him. So he knows what he wants and defines that, however, does it with creativity and fabulous. I use fabs a lot in this interview because that's really how I can describe Queen of the whole universe. And it is per se it is. It is just a fun out there. Colourful, vibrant, exciting want to be their show and isn't it? And that's what it's all about. And you come away feeling really good [00:36:00] too, you know, And like, you know, there's so many dark movies or or dark plays that people produce these days, and it's just lovely to be able to have a bit of slapstick and a bit of poking fun at yourself. Do you see in the photographs you take on the night of the audience a difference between when people come in and when people go out? Oh, definitely, yes. They're all very neat and tidy when they're coming up, you know, in their suit, and they prim and proper with their drinks. And even [00:36:30] though they're all dressed up and then halfway through an interval when I'm still taking photos Oh, come on. I'm just taking a glass with the wine spilling out of it, and they're not drunk or anything. They're just so relaxed because anything goes on the show. And, of course, anything goes with the audience and you don't know, like Miss has got a, um, right at the end of her show. She's doing our dream of Jeanie Song, and she's actually coming out into the audience and going to sit on people's laps and play with their earrings and all that type of thing. And, of course, when you interaction [00:37:00] with the audience and the and the actors, it just adds that relax, sort of in the party afterwards. Of course, you know, just everybody is you wouldn't even know who the actors and who the audience were, because they're all relaxed and you know you can. The really bloke bloke, you know, turns out to be Who cares? Come and sit on my lap in this photo. You know, it's it's very much, isn't it? It brings the straights and the gaze if you like to call it all together for one fun night, [00:37:30] you know? And we all Honestly, as I said before, you know, in months, years following they they look back and think, Oh, yeah, that was fabulous. One good memories. This upcoming performance is the last, uh, queen of the whole universe beauty pageant. And I'm wondering if you had any thoughts on on that. Say it. We haven't really thought about that. Well, it is sad. I mean, Matthew was only coming. [00:38:00] This will be his third performance, won't it? And of course, you know, it was a shame that he wasn't. We went together earlier, so he can, um, go through. But, um, yeah, it is sad, but I can you know, I can appreciate the amount of work doing it too. There's a lot, a lot of work as would say, but, um, you know, surprise, surprise. Jonathan might come out with something new and exciting that we can, um, envelope into as well. So, um, but I it is sad. But in some [00:38:30] ways, I hope And I really do hope that Jonathan and Kevin will do a sort of a Graham Norton show on TV because I because I, my 25 year old son who has said that Jonathan and Kevin will be brilliant bucking will be brilliant at that. Yeah. I hate that. There will be something more, uh, whatever Jonathan's decision is going to be, because I ask him if you get dressed up in Well, I was gonna ask. I mean, if even if queen of the whole universe stops, uh, does that stop [00:39:00] you from doing more? Well, um, yeah. Um, I'm not really sure I never thought of it. Yeah, so? So you mean to say that in the next? Once the show is over, I won't be seeing you vacuuming and dusting and And your long frock. Oh, sorry. You don't know what goes on behind those doors, do you? I've always said that nothing than folk, you know, no I. I only, um, dress up, Um, for the the of the universe. [00:39:30] Not that that dresses up, but we are going to the pink ball. Um, the gay ball in the Shadow Hotel. That was last year. Matthew went as Samoa, and, um, he will go as, um as I'll let you go again because I think it's a good chance to be yourself. But we're just trying to decide what outfit he should wear and how wonderful she's going to look. But with Matthew it II I know that a lot of dry queens and what [00:40:00] have you or take a lot of time to get made up. But Matthew seems to do it with a reasonable space of time, don't you? For Matthew to Mr So the pink ball will be fabulous. Have you been? No, it is wonderful. It was wonderful. And, um, raise money for Yes, I'm not too sure you're doing for, but it is. It's a chance for collectively and people are coming from overseas for it. And last year was the first one and it to and [00:40:30] just a beautiful old fashioned. You're too young to remember, Gareth. But in the sixties. You know, the balls used to be fabulous. Well, it's the same sort of feeling, you know, But that's what we're off to before the queen of the university. A. We're gonna be trout fishing for a week. And when doesn't been a bloke to Hello, Miss Patty. Hi. At the at the, um, at the ball. Actually, it would be really funny, wouldn't it? If, um, miss walks down the main street of with this fishing rod, but be highs close, [00:41:00] wouldn't it? We really get the locals, wouldn't it? One thing. Good, um, being the other character, like when we were on the cruise ship, Um, after, um, Samoa. The Hawaiian night next morning at breakfast. Um, they said to Brian Oh, who was that lovely woman drag woman that you didn't realise that it was me there sitting there and quite off them and and they were really quite serious. They weren't having fun with us. I said, Well, where's Matthew? And I said, Oh, Matthew's gone to sleep. [00:41:30] I didn't realise I, but I just still I, I still recall at on the, um, the cruise ship. The cruise director was really put out because that was his job of the night to make sure it all runs perfectly. And who should turn up at Miss Samoa and everyone flocks to him for the whole night here for the night. So he didn't have a chance to do anything. He tried to get line dancing going Oh, no. They all want to be around the the whole evening shouting a drink. So, yeah, it's [00:42:00] a lot of fun and that's the whole essence of it all the night.

IRN: 535
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/qwu_gerry_masters.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003938
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089232
TITLE: Gerry Masters - Queen of the Whole Universe
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Gerry Masters
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Gerry Masters; Queen of the Whole Universe; arts; performance; theatre
DATE: 3 June 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Gerry talks about being one of the boys in the Queen of the Whole Universe beauty pageant.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I've always got a DVD of the show. And, uh, my day job is an teacher. I teach English to, uh, international students, and sometimes I'll show them the DVD of the show. And I'll say, OK, which ones are the guys and which ones are the girls and which of the girls are actually guys? And how does how does that go? Oh, great. Debates over it. Really. Is it really a girl? Yeah. Are you sure? Yes, I'm sure. But what about that one? Is it really a guy? Yes, it is. He's a guy. [00:00:30] If you hear him speak, he's talking like this. Hello. So it's, uh it's good fun. The first ones you were in the audience. Can you describe what the kind of feeling was like, Oh, it was great. Um, the first time I went was the very first time they had poise, and the energy coming off the stage was, you know, the audience and the and the performance for feeding off each other and you're always waiting to see Oh, it was really good. What's gonna come next? So it was great. Yeah. Were there any memorable moments in that performance? [00:01:00] Um the swimsuit parade was was good fun. I remember that. And, uh, that was, uh, was that act one or was act Act two? But I, I remember all these guys in in various sorts of one and two piece swimsuits and that that that was fun. A bit scary, but fun. The costumes are amazing, aren't they? I mean, the the amount of work that goes into those they are. We're really lucky we just get measured up. And, um, we do a little bit of sewing ourselves or [00:01:30] a little bit of, but it's mostly done for us. Whereas the individual performers, uh, the girls all do their own outfits. See, for example, in the head gear of nations, what we have to do is, uh, walk them off and on, and they might They might give us a little bit of, um, something to wear. For one year. One where I was, for example, I had Miss Venezuela and where she was Miss Angel Falls. And so we had, uh, wings on angel wings on and angel halos. So if they [00:02:00] if the girls want to give us extra bits for our costumes, you know, that's fine. we're quite happy to put those on. Uh, last time I was with, uh, having the Super City who was actually in a wheelie bin. So I had to put on one of those orange vests in the hard hat and wheel, wheel her out and be careful not to sort of drop her. Fortunately, she wasn't too heavy, but, uh, the couple of times the momentum nearly got away from me. What are the key things to make a good boy on stage? Um, don't be [00:02:30] too self conscious. Ok, uh, be very flexible fit in because you're there to support the the girls and make them look good. And, um, try not to wind the director up more than necessary. OK, a little bit every now and then it's fine. But, uh, yeah, you know, just fit in and and help out as much as you can. And and, you know, if you see somebody you know needs a hand, just go and give it Can you take me back to the the first time that you got involved as a boy [00:03:00] and just take me through the whole process in terms of going through the rehearsals and then getting on to stage. Take me. Yeah, sure. Um, I can't quite remember where we were rehearsing, but, um, it was sort of a meet and greet and, um, talked to some other. You know, you talked to some other boys who had been there for quite a while since the beginning when it was queen of a whole Pacific. It started out at Sky City, I believe, and then moved on to the A A centre. Um, [00:03:30] yeah. So it was just sort of meet everybody and, uh, eyes, eyes wide eyed and be geared and all that kind of thing. And, uh, when they with the dance steps, I sort of thinking, you know, we let's do it again. Let's do it again. Let's do it again. Oh, God. OK, so going through all that process when they said we're going to learn five dances And after the first one, you thought my God, that was hard enough. How am I going to learn another four? [00:04:00] Um, yeah, but you could actually see it coming together. And once we had a got to the stage where we could sort of run the whole first act, The opening scene. That's the biggest part. The opening number is the everybody's on stage. Almost all the time. The rest of the show. You're not on stage that much. And, um, excuse me, Um, so, yeah, that when When [00:04:30] having been in shows before and rehearsed scenes here and there I could actually, I knew the process. And to see it all come together more smoothly after six weeks was really good. You know, you think Oh, we're getting somewhere. And I remember these dance steps, and I wasn't the only 10! Oh, yeah. I wasn't the only one who cocked it up. That's always a relief. Those first rehearsals had you ever been in such a large group of, uh, gay, lesbian or [00:05:00] whoever you know, such a diverse group before? No. No. I had been in on large groups and, um, other Some other shows have been with crowd scenes. And, uh, but no, not a not a whole bunch of, uh, G BT people. What was that like? Um, no different, Really. Some of the jokes are a bit saucy and, uh, all the for the double entendres people would make. And we could all laugh at them mainly at ourselves as well, but and then [00:05:30] they gave a good sense of camaraderie as well. So, yeah, you felt sort of felt a bit more of I wouldn't say family. That's a bit cliche, but it felt there was a friendlier atmosphere than some of the other shows have been. And no, there weren't any PRI Madonnas or any divas. Um, you know, sort of a kiwi thing. I go, you know, get everybody get on with it. You know, had you ever experienced that in the gay community before? In terms of that, that kind of being the size? No, [00:06:00] because I'm not really, uh, out and about in the gay scene as much as I was when I was single. And, uh, no, I just I wasn't sort of a a clubbing person or an event person. Even when I've been to the the big gang out and, you know, just sort of wander around and eat the dogs and and, uh, wear my my t-shirt. That says destiny Church. Even worse than Scientology? Um, no, that no. [00:06:30] One of the other things with that diverse group of people is that you're also taking people that maybe have not performed before. And you've also got experienced performers. How does how does that work? Um, you pretty much You just ask people. You know, Have you been in a show before? And if you haven't, you say, Oh, you don't worry. You know, you got the hang of it. Trust me. If I can do it, you can do it. So it's it's helping them along, especially the young ones who are a bit nervous. And you say, Oh, just just watch your old uncle and I'll show you what to do kind of thing. So, [00:07:00] yeah, we keep an eye on the new new ones and especially the younger ones as well. And, uh, just make sure. And afterwards, you know you're picking it up, Don't worry. And that kind of thing. So a bit of gentle encouragement. What kind of age range? Um, from 18 to guys. And they almost 70? I think so. Yeah, pretty pretty good time with it. And that must make choreographing something quite interesting in terms of having all those different abilities. It does. It does because when you actually you think you're dancing well and [00:07:30] when you see yourself on stage. It looks like you're walking around with a broom. Shove up your ass. But, uh, uh, unfortunately, we haven't had to worry about fitting in any, um, Zimmer frames at this stage that that'll come. Um, it's it's not too bad, because the choreographers we've we've been very fortunate to have some very, very patient choreographers. I would be pulling my hair out if I were them. What little remains, Um, so, yeah, they've been very patient. I'm sure they must go home and knock off a half a bottle of Bombay [00:08:00] gin afterwards. But, uh, we've been very fortunate, and they've taken us, You know, if there's, like, four lines which will make sure the A line at a time, you know, do you know what to do? And that's why we have the long and the number of vessels we do so that you know, you've only got one chance to the doping number. And, uh, judging by all the screaming and yelling and clapping, we usually get it right length of rehearsal. So? So [00:08:30] how far out for opening night do you start? Uh, three months, which is It's sort of the first meeting And then the show is blocked, as any show is, Um, and depending on what your role is like, last year was the first time I've been involved in an act two, part of the show because I wanted to do that after Because as a boy, uh, essentially, you're the only part of an act two you're involved in is is carrying out the tiaras and the flowers. And [00:09:00] other than other than that, you can sit up in the up in the gods and watch the show or downstairs. Um, so it was something I wanted to do. Um, so that was extra rehearsals because I would rehearse. I was part of, uh, Miss Francis Group. So we would rehearse earlier, and then after then we we'd go to the we be at the same venue, but we'd get there, like, an hour and a half earlier. So we do our thing, and then everybody else would arrive. So yeah, that that was a big time commitment. And [00:09:30] unfortunately, I couldn't do it this year because I'm busy with 30 or 40 other things. Uh, so, yeah, it It all depends, of course. How much with an Act two person, how much they want to put into it. But as as the whole show, it's really good because, you know, after four weeks when they say right, we're going to do song Number one, you go, Oh, yeah, fine, Great. And so you do that little thing and then you go on to number two and you think Left left. Oh, no, no, the other left. [00:10:00] But we we get there and it's It's not a drag, you know, you don't it's It's a commitment, you know, And you've made the commitment to be part of the group to be there. And unless there's something really major on that, you can't get out of it. And you should. You know, you have to email Jonathan and say, You know, look sorry, I just can't get there because so and such and such has happened. But I think, and all the shows I've been that I've missed possibly two rehearsals, Yeah, because to me it's, you know, it's, uh, you know, [00:10:30] you've made as I say, you've made that commitment and it's an integrity thing as well. You know, you don't want to get people down, because if I was on the issues. If somebody didn't turn up, I'd be miffed, to put it mildly officially, if the same person just gave me the excuse three times I'm like, That's it. So in the course of a week, how how much? How many hours would you be spending rehearsing, Uh, once we get closer? It's twice a week, usually Thursday, an evening and Sunday afternoon. So 56 [00:11:00] hours a week, maybe a bit longer. And that's for the, uh, Act one act one opening number. Mostly. And then Act two is actually when specific performers take groups or groups of people. Because Act two, there's the talent section, the interview section and the performance. So, uh, you might want might be a little bit of that, but but in the performance that's your main role there. Supporting, um, excuse me, supporting the, uh, the person through their dance [00:11:30] numbers so that that's a big thing of it. Uh, Act one is the opening number and the, uh, order for the head gear of nations who who is escorting who kind of thing. So they just sort of pee you off with people, and then you just get that road in the road order. And because there's say, for example, 10 boys, 10 or 12 boys. And there's, like, 30 girls. You have to as soon as you get off order one if you've got to sprint around [00:12:00] the back of the stage and grab the next one. But luckily, the stage crew has got us all sorted out for that. So thank God they're great. They do a great job. Have there been any mishaps behind it? Yeah, a couple of times. Uh uh. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember 11 rehearsal. We, um we were doing the opening number, and, uh, it was actually it was dress rehearsal. And, uh, us boys had on kind of like leather miniskirts essentially, [00:12:30] and we were running around on a circle, and mine just completely fell off, and mine was the only one that did. And Jonathan just about had a huge laughing effect. If he wasn't drag, then he was He could see his mascara running, but, uh, yes. I think I've got a somewhat of a, uh, it entirely undeserved reputation for doing the odd dropping the odd clanger. I have no idea why. And then your role changes a wee bit in Act two. Where you're actually supporting a single? [00:13:00] Yes, Yes. In Act two last year where I was part of the Miss France Team France be It's nice. Um, yeah, it was more a, uh, again, we we blocked that and we had a had a very good choreographer help us. And, uh, each performer, I think had five minutes on stage, so we had a routine that ran for four minutes and 58 seconds. So again, there it was, um, but however [00:13:30] they choose to tell their story, um, you just sort of fiddle with that and, you know, maybe four or five different characters. So again, it's a matter of running behind the backdrop, you know, doing a little bit doing the dance, and then behind the backdrop, change costume, come back on the other side, you know, off and on. Off and off, off and on. That kind of thing. Do the act two girls take it seriously in terms of, um because II I understand that in act one, you've got the head gear of nations. You see all the girls [00:14:00] and then a lot of the girls don't get through to Act two and the Act two girls know they're getting through to Act two. Correct. But they don't know who's going to win. No. So do the act two girls take it seriously. You know the amount of work that goes into it? Um uh, because, you know, not only is it's bragging rights, of course. Nice trophy to put on your mental piece. Uh, you know, and photos for your Christmas cards. But, uh, yeah, it's it's, uh, I If, you know, if I was going to be an Act two girl, I'd be in it to [00:14:30] win. Definitely. And, uh, they they're competitive. But again, there's still no divas. You know, there's no, um, there's no bitch fights in the in the back alleys or hissy fits or anything like that. Um, you know, everybody's pretty much just focused on their team because there's just so much to do that, you know, you don't really care what the others are doing. I have sat in the audience after you know, before and after our number, and and sort of punch them and go Oh, that's cool. But, um, it [00:15:00] hasn't had any influence. I haven't sort of come running. No one's come running into the changing room and said, Do you know what Miss Guadalupe is doing this year? Things like that. So, I, I would think that with the amount of effort they want, they would expect to, you know, why would you do it if you weren't serious? Because even the third prize, you get a nice, you know, bottle, bottle, bottle bubbles. And some, you know, a weekend away at a country lodge and the B and B or something like that. And so the two girls they have to come up with [00:15:30] the choreography, the design, the yeah, everything, the whole shebang, the set. They have to design the set. They have to, uh, submit quite a detailed plan to Jonathan. Um, in fact, to get through and, um, saying how many? Because I think they're allowed to to bring. I think they're allowed 10 in the crew, possibly and half of them are allowed to be outsiders. So But we were all, uh, we were all part of act all. Everybody in this team [00:16:00] of France was in the show already anyway. So where others have actually brought in you know, maybe one or two professional dancers or people with certain skills. I. I remember, uh, a couple of years ago, M to brought in a Tongan culture group to sit there and do a proper dance in a proper and respectful way to the Tongan people. So, uh, she was the main main focus, of course. But they were the proper Tongan girls dressed as they would be in Tonga for a similar occasion. Similar occasion, Um, [00:16:30] for a certain occasion. And, um, they were doing their thing and and they were dressed properly and, you know, they were fine. They they thought they were having a great time. You could see them downstairs in the changing room. It's a huge giggle watching these men up, running around in tights, up and down the corridors and skirts and other things. So, yeah, yeah, it's good. The amount of work and planning that goes into it is obviously very detailed. Um, it's not something, you know. I think some [00:17:00] people must begin planning for the next show, possibly two or three months after the previous ones finished. Judging by the amount of work you see and you've never had a kind of a even just a flash in your head thinking Oh, actually, I want to be an Act two girl or No, no. Well, not so much an Act two girl, but I was trying to think, you know, what would I call myself? Because they come, You know, all the names and I've helped other people with their names because all these ideas keep popping into my head, [00:17:30] like one year. Um, Miss Russia didn't have a very good name. So you, you sky something like that. So, um, it's it's I just sort of, you know, what would I be? I just just as a you know, it's just a fun exercise we've sort of sat down with, you know, the bus boys. You know, if you're on a two, what name would you have kind of thing. And so we just do any changing room and we were sort of thinking up or, you know, if it's a bit quiet [00:18:00] between just but that's about as far as that's gone, I've never had the, uh, the slightest urge to put on some rouge and pat up and get my big bum out there. Can you recall any other favourite names? Um, let's see. Not off the top of my head. No. Although, you know, I spent a bit of time, [00:18:30] um, thinking about my name for this year. So, uh, it's good. I've decided to be, uh, in the programme. You've got your name, and then you've got a wee bio underneath. Uh, last year I was Rufus T Firefly, Which is, of course, Groucho Marx from duck Soup. And so I made as many references to the Marx Brothers in my bio as I could. You know, after a night at the operates today at the races kind of thing. Um, And this year, I've decided to be Uncle Clary. Everyone's got a dodgy uncle, [00:19:00] so that will let me keep them short. But I do have, um I do have an I. When I first started out on the programme, I was boy number 10. And, uh, now, last year I moved up to boy number six, and this year, I should be boy number two. So I'm gradually moving up the boy boy number list. But I can't knock Terry off because he's been there since the beginning. He'll be boy number one I'm sorry, Ronnie. Pardon me, Ronnie. Ronnie. Not Ronnie. Terry. Because he was telling soft and easily pulled. [00:19:30] So, uh, Ronnie is still number one. Although at the moment as we speak, he is on holiday in South America. So who knows what will happen over there? It sounds like, um, you must have some amazing nights just coming up with these concepts in terms of names and bios, and they're great fun. Yeah, Yeah, but you you've got to keep it down to less than 50 words. And, uh, so I would I would like to be, um, be Jonathan and sort of get all these. It's not until you actually see See a mock up of the programme that you actually [00:20:00] get three people's buyers, But I actually have helped a few others out with, uh, with ideas for this Quite creative in that area. You mentioned earlier that you've worn a number of costumes as a boy, and I'm just wondering, can you can you tell me? Describe some of the other costumes that you had to wear? Uh, yeah. First year we wore, um, sorry. The first year I was in a pardon me, we had uh, it's a [00:20:30] We had white undies, and we had, uh, uh, dark blue leather chats with sparkles on them and a dark blue waistcoat. And the hat, we sort of looked like, um, rejects from the village people. Well, not quite that bad, but, like, 10 or 12 of us, and we're all different sizes. I'm a bit on extra cuddly size myself, and there's guys with hairs, and but what? Whatever we're wearing, as soon as the boys come out, especially when the boys do their own number, the crowd just goes nuts. [00:21:00] Just scream, and they love it. We've had to wear, uh, sailor suits and my head kept for coming off because it was a pain. Um, what else have we want? Yeah, I'm just thinking. Hm. Uh, what could be last year? Oh, we've worn Sort of, as I say, the the skirts with different coloured vests, like, you know, uh, faux fur kind of things, but, uh, yeah, yeah. I'm quite happy [00:21:30] to do whatever they stick me in. Oh, my bum looks so big in this. Has this ever been Has there ever been a costume that you thought? Oh, my goodness. I'm not gonna wear that, or, uh, it was mainly just the the fishnet stockings inside the, um So the Doc Martin boots. And, uh, it was it was the, um We had to use double sided tape to keep the socks up. And, uh, I was glad it was only, uh, two. Twice. I had to wear [00:22:00] those for the dress rehearsal and for the, um, for the show. Excuse me. Because taking off the tape. Yeah, of course. Fair bit of your leg here. So, um yeah, yeah, a few things. You know, you thought as you sit down, some people in the audience might get an eye, but, hey, you know, that's the That's why you pay extra money for the stores. So was your lucky day. Has there ever been anything that's really challenged you that that that's kind [00:22:30] of pushed your boundaries in terms of I don't want to do this or, uh, I've never done this before, and I'm really freaking out about it. Or, um, just the first time when we started, uh, the first time when we were on stage and I'm just in as I said, That costume with the spark sequins and the the waistcoat and the chaps. And I've just got my undies on And I'm thinking, Well, all those people have never seen me in my underwear. They're about [00:23:00] to, But the music started up. And, um, you know, you start doing your dance steps and you more. I was more concentrating on my dance steps because for some strange reason, we were wearing flippers over our doc Martins. And I was more worried about standing on something or whipping it too far to the right. And this person in the third row would get a flip on the face. Um, yeah, yeah, I was a little bit, um, but the actions about that. But the other people [00:23:30] in the in the group were very supportive and, you know, go, Jerry. Yeah, you're doing well and dance steps and all that kind of thing. So after after that, you thought, Oh, that wasn't so bad. So that was the only thing you know. After that, you go whatever. It's not a big deal. It's quite liberating, actually, because if you can do something like that, even though there's three or four people in the audience, you know, most of them don't. Unfortunately, they're very loud. So you've [00:24:00] been out for a few drinks beforehand. I should tell a Mexican cafe if anybody's going to the university at the minute we had too many to kill the shooters by that stage. Yeah, I. I could tell when my friends were sitting in about five seconds. It must be quite nice to know, though, that that you've got people in the audience. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, especially. But it's a bit embarrassing when they cheer more for you. Here's Miss so and so and they walk out and people are supposed to be clapping for hearing [00:24:30] the three half a dozen people screaming really loud, right? It's a bit of a wave there. That's good fun, though, So from the rehearsal process, it moves into the kind of production stage. Yes, tell me about that. How How's it moving into the theatre? Uh, it's good because the hall or any any any practise space. Um, [00:25:00] even though you might have the dimensions of the stage, you don't. Actually, being in the theatre is a whole bit new experience because you've got the the depth of the audience in front of you even when the theatre and even even when it's empty. Uh, usually the ceiling is higher. You've got, uh, more backstage you've got, and you actually can see now. All right, this is where I go on this is where I go off, and, um, you've got a better idea of it's It's more real, [00:25:30] obviously. But also, it's you can actually make the connection. OK, right. This goes with that. Goes with the right. Yeah. Yeah. So I've always found that when I've actually other shows I've been in prior to queen of the whole universe, we actually rehearsed in the theatre. So you're aware of your exits and entries and how much space you had on the stage. And you got used to the feel of the place, whereas going into a a venue that's only available [00:26:00] for two or three days beforehand. Excuse me? Uh, too much jerky in the car on the way over? Um, yeah, it's it's good because, you know, you get to wander around, uh, have a look around, you know, like last year. Last time we were at the Wellington Opera House, which was a first for me and it's quite a rabbit Warren from all the walkways and the tunnels and the rehearsal rooms and everything. Um, so yeah, it's it's it's, uh, more tangible. [00:26:30] Is is what I'd say far more tangible. You realise? OK, we're two or three days away. God, don't Don't stuff it up and you can sort of work out where your friends are gonna be sitting because, you know, between if you're not needed, you can see the the over there. OK, even though you might have been shown the plan The floor plan, um, you can still go. Yeah, I know where you're sitting. So you know where to look when the cheeky parts when you're not supposed to, is you're walking somebody off. Give [00:27:00] them a bit of a wave to nod of the head to to your, uh, nearest and dearest. Sounds good for some people. Uh, that had never done theatre before. I imagine it would take a while to acclimatise I. I would say so because, um, as I say, it's it's quite a huge space, and that can be overwhelming for some people. Uh, because with the rehearsal space, you know you can walk across from one side to the other, but and there's always a different boundary. [00:27:30] But on the stage, the only boundary is the edge of the stage, and you don't dance up to that far. And the separation between you actually realise that within three or four days those seats are going to have people in them. And for some people, that's a bit of a bit of trepidation. Comes in there. And so you keep we keep an eye on each other. It's a very, um, communal sort of feeling and everyone see you OK? Oh, yeah, [00:28:00] you'll be all right. And, um, what is good is we have, uh, some of the support people, uh, dresses or makeup people or lighting crew or whatever, uh, other and other other people connected with the show. In some way they'll be sitting out in the audience so there might be up to 50 people at a time scattered in the stalls, so that gives the people [00:28:30] a taste of an audience who've never had one before. And it's really good. But plus, as with any show, um, if people have never actually been on stage, they need to be aware that unless the lights are on in a certain direction, you can only see about four rows back. You can hear them. But you know, you're usually busy, so busy doing what you're doing on stage that, um, you're never on stage by yourself. Uh, as as a performer, Buffy and Limbo [00:29:00] are on together and and as a peer, but from the opening number, when the curtain goes up to the, uh even when us boys are doing our own dance, we never run by ourselves. And so you're never feeling as though you're the centre of attention or focus, I should say so that that knowing that that that's not gonna happen is probably very good for the new people that no one is going to be looking at you and it's just gonna be you going? [00:29:30] Uh uh, uh uh. So you might be last off, and some people really want to be laughed off. I told them to do that too many times. Um, just, you know, sort of having it up. But, uh, you know, if you want to be first off, that's fine, you know, Great, not a problem. And you sort of wonder about some people because they don't seem to be very effusive or very bubbly talk, you know, practises and rehearsals. And they're a bit quiet [00:30:00] and, you know, the amount of energy that's needed, um, on stage and you sort of think how they're gonna go They actually do. Quite well. Is that, uh does that work in the alternate way where, you know, some people off stage are like, really larger than life, and then they kind of shrink on stage one or two, possibly because, uh, they don't have that amount of confidence in their dancing. And what [00:30:30] you need to keep in mind as a performer is that the audience doesn't know, OK, it's a 1st, 1st and only time for them to see it because it's a one night show and if you go left and everyone else goes right, you know, whatever. As long as you don't stand in anybody's hems and you know there's not a costume malfunction. It's not a big deal, because quite a few of the fast step to dancers, um, you know, you're busy thinking to yourself, and obviously you quite quite often you're watching what somebody else is doing because you might have forgotten halfway through, [00:31:00] but the audience is just really going with the buzz, and they're not singling anybody out. Um, and because as as the boys, the only major focus for us is the dance we do. Um, you know, you you you really sort of probably possibly possibly put a bit more effort into that than slight. Slightly, a little more. No, no disrespect to anybody else for their dancing ability and their their amount of effort. But I do [00:31:30] know, but because the focus is on us I, I actually work a bit harder with that dance to make sure that I don't make the rest of the group. Look, uh, I don't bring the group down. Yeah, I, you know, do as best the best I can. One of the things different, obviously, in the rehearsal is that people aren't dressed up. So when you were saying about looking at or or or watching somebody that, you know, in rehearsal, you know, they're there, but actually in performance, they could look completely [00:32:00] different. Um, well, we do get a clue because, uh, quite often the guys will bring along their shoes to get used to dancing on them. So, um, you know what? They that that girl girl, girl, girl, boy, boy boy sort of thing. So they want to get used to dancing in the six inch either the big, chunky platform shoes or whatever, whatever they're wearing. And, um, because it's the same people coming back year after year, you know that, right? Ok, there's [00:32:30] gonna be a girl who's going to be a girl. He'll be a boy. So it's it once and, uh, you know, you ask everybody or who are you? I'm gonna be with so and so and so and so and so it's it's it doesn't really make much difference. You just see them in the costume and you say, Oh, yeah. Nice costume or ask say, Oh, goodness me. Oh, dear. Would you like some advice, Nick. So do you. No, no, you don't do that. You just think. Oh, OK. Mm. The dressing rooms must be quite an [00:33:00] amazing place. Yeah, unfortunately, we boys get our own dressing room, which is really good, and, um, the dressing rooms at the edge. Uh, it's a nice, nice big one for us, and we just sit around And of course, we, um we follow the rules completely about not having any alcohol or any other thing like that. So, um, people will bring along what we have on the knives will have a shit. You know, somebody will bring along pizza. Somebody bring along sushi and just busy stuffing yourself. And they provide us with Red Bull. [00:33:30] And, um yeah, it It's a good, very good buzz in there. And you sit there with your bag and your munch and munchies and you you got the, um, the intercom and so you can hear what's going on 21 to 21 else to OK, fine. Give me. So yeah, it's good. We just sort of sit there and relax. And plus, you have a wander around, and if you look in the rooms and you see what the girls are wearing, that's good. And there's a big, um, green room as well. So you can sit in there and relax [00:34:00] and chill out, and we just wait till they've finished feeding the judges. Then we go in and eat all the leftovers. Good for you, to you. The tech side of things. How are they to deal with, uh, you know, I mean, does this is this stage manager like, barking at you or No, no, Ellie is a lovely lady. She would She would never do that. Um, but she doesn't take crap from anybody, which is really good. And as long as you're supposed [00:34:30] to or John also is a stage manager. Jeez, there must be one for the night and one for the crew, but yeah. Um, no, they they're really good, you know, as long as you you know, you try and you listen to them when they're explaining, You know, this is what he'll do. This just will do that, you know, don't stand there and get a sandbag dropped on your head kind of thing. Um, they're they're really good. And we, you know, they they we couldn't definitely couldn't do the show without them. And if there's any issues we say, you know, Look, um, I can't make it from here to here in this [00:35:00] time because of XYZ. Um, is it ok if I come on here instead? And you know, you say during rehearsals, you find out that you can't make it from one side to the other. So you'll have that part of your costume waiting there for you. And you say, Look, I need a dresser and I'll arrange that because if you've got to get whip something off and then get something off on and change boots and everything, that might not sound like a lot. But when you've got, like one minute, it's so much easier. If somebody's holding the coat, you can just run into it [00:35:30] and zip it up and somebody else will be taking your boots off and putting shoes on for you and that kind of thing and they'll back on stage. So they're great. I can't say enough good things about them. Fabulous. How many people on stage at any one time would there be? Um, well, I do believe they set a record in Wellington for 35 drag queens on stage, but they didn't count us boys, so they I think the most we've had on stage has been around about 50 for the opening [00:36:00] number. So what does that translate to backstage? How many people backstage? Uh, up to 20. There's the, uh, as I said, there's addresses who are ready to help people off and on. Um, there will be a stage crew who are taking props off and on. Um, there will be some of the, uh, Act two girls will have their own dresses as well. Um, sorry, some of the girls, not just the act two girls, because the costumes are all written and you need people just there waiting for you to put it on. Um, [00:36:30] yeah, you You sort of learning where everything is going to be so that when you're running from one side to the other behind the back, that you don't collide with somebody, which I nearly did or or, um, especially if you've got certain restrictive headgear on, you know, you just get out of people's way and try not to stand like anything as well, because you wouldn't want to stand on or, you know, trip over and put your foot through somebody's head gear that they've spent for 50 hours making it right through the pep and paper mache. But so yeah, it it's it seems to work [00:37:00] organised chaos, as people say. So we're here on, uh, on the night curtain is about to go up. How does it feel? Uh, yeah, It's a bit of a rush thinking, um, because the last couple of numbers, it's been Buffy and Mumbo and the boys. So the focus is on you straight away, and I'm thinking different things, like, you know, listen, listen to the cue. Listen to the cue. Um, keep the right expression [00:37:30] on your face. Um, I hope the people who are who are supporting me don't scream out my name just yet. Um, but luckily, usually they're watching the beginning of the number and they wait till the end. So I've I've trained them, although depending on how many, um, shes they've had beforehand, it doesn't always work. Um, yeah, it's It's great. There's a bit of that nervous energy, and it's within the group and everyone before the stages. You know, we, for example, all the leather boys will get together with their hands [00:38:00] in the circle, go to leather boys, you know, like that, or go muscle boys or whatever. Um, so yeah, yeah, it's good. And as soon as the curtain goes up, the crowd cheers straight away and you just know having been in the audience, you know, you know, they're busy eyes everywhere, watching What's going on? Uh, of course, if you know somebody who's on the stage, look for them. So I know that you know, I'm being watched, but that only comes into my [00:38:30] head at the end when we've stopped and we the applause is ongoing that it's more, you know, next number. Next number. Next step. I've got to be here. I should be standing next and so and so and so And so So, yeah, all that all that rehearsal pays off because, you know, and keeps my at something. Look, as though you're enjoying yourself. Which part of the whole thing do you enjoy the most, uh, getting to know people better. And because not, you know, [00:39:00] I might see a few of them around the town during the year. But as I say, because I'm not really into the scene or anything like that. So it's just, you know, making more friends. And, uh, quite a few of them are on Facebook, which is fun catching up with what they're doing. Um, I mean, yeah, it it's the it's the friendships that you make. Um, it's the odd cleaners that people drop, you know, they're always fun remember that? Um, I'm known for my very bad jokes, And, uh, [00:39:30] but it's and the gentle, good, good natured ribbing is also good fun. Um, and, uh, it's amazing to see the amount as I say the head gear, you know, because all we do is just walk, walk the girls out, and you look at it and you go, Wow, that's amazing, man. So, yeah, it's It's pretty much there are. There are, um, no parts I don't enjoy. There are parts that are, you know, I wish didn't go on as long like that. Well, let's do that number again. Let's rehearse that one [00:40:00] again. Because the chore some choreographers are very exacting, which is I'm sure it's what we need anyway, because if, um if we didn't hear something 25 times, it probably wouldn't look that good on the night. But after the fifth time of doing something, you think, Oh, God, give it a rest. But they No, no, they're good. They crack the whip and they make us look good. So thank you very much to the choreographers for, um, giving us a kick up the bum when we need it. Because I'm sure we did. It's just, you know, it It depends. Um, it's not so bad. [00:40:30] Because even if you had a rough day at work and you go along to rehearsal, you know that that good energy there. Oh, hi, Jerry. How's it going? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that sort of thing. And Jonathan will be giving us a bit of a pep talk and telling us where we have to in the order of things, which is good. This, uh, this upcoming pageant, the 10th is gonna be the final one. Do you have any thoughts on that? Uh, yeah. Um, it's like anything else. It's run its course, [00:41:00] and you don't watch it. It's not like we don't want to watch. It's like, uh, I don't wanna be like Rocky and go on for Rocky 23 or something like that. Um, I'm sure something will come along afterwards, but I think it's, um because it's been the the brainchild and the baby of of Jonathan and Kevin, Um, to a degree, uh, you know, it's it's for them, and where they are after in their life [00:41:30] and their professional life and all that kind of thing. You know, I think they made a good call. Everyone's had fun doing it. There's been no, Um uh you know, of course, it will be a shame that it's over. And I think, OK, what am I going to do next year? But something else will come along, but, uh, I think it's definitely been a A plus in every way. Um, I'm very proud to have been a small part of raising money for community groups [00:42:00] that support people living with AIDS and HIV. And, um, you know, it's it's important to me to get back to the community in some way. I've done it in many other aspects of my life with, um, adult literacy and, um uh, Boy Scouts. Oh, God, I guess, Um, but yeah, so I will. I will, for my own, um, way of life. Find another community group. I can go along and support, but I think it's more [00:42:30] that, um, you know, go out when you're on top, because, uh, it's it's I mentioned. It's a huge commitment. Um, time wise for Jonathan McKeen and 10 Years is just enough for anything. I think it's really great that it's lasted 10 years, but I think it's a good call.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089231
TITLE: Alison Bell-Allen - Queen of the Whole Universe
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Bell-Allen
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Alison Bell-Allen; Auckland; Gay Auckland Business Association (GABA); Queen of the Whole Universe; drag; performance; straight; theatre
DATE: 13 May 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison talks about being one of the stage managers for the Queen of the Whole Universe beauty pageant.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: For me, apart from the obvious thing, um, the stage managing et cetera. It is the joy of being with a group of people who are themselves. There's no pretence, no pretence, no So many people live under a shadow of pretence and it shouldn't be necessary in this day and age. So for you, is it more? It's more than just the performance on the night. It's It's it's a wider thing. [00:00:30] Yes, it's the whole rehearsal thing, and it's also I must be one of the oldest stage managers. And I think certainly I would think in New Zealand and having done it professionally, it's a way of keeping my hand and my adrenaline goes sky high. No matter how tired I feel or anything like that, it just goes sky high and I love it. I love stage managing. Um, I love anything to do with Theatre and, um but there's that wonderful sense of rehearsal that I love, that everybody is joyous. [00:01:00] Tell me what? What is a stage manager? What? What does a stage manager do? Well, my role was in the Queen of the whole universe is not full stage manager. I call the show. So I go to rehearsals to listen to the music, to see what's happening and to, um, call all the queues, Uh, be they lighting sound, um, spotlights, um, flies, whatever. So you need to know [00:01:30] the show fairly well, and either by sound and or by visual, you know, um, mostly with me. With the first piece. It's It's a digital thing. I can't become involved in any shape or form. I feel emotionally with the actual performance on the nights, because otherwise you lose where you are. I only hear it as a series of the only way I can describe it as a series of digits, which sounds weird [00:02:00] and following every letter and and every note. And I've got huge notes on my script, and I've got huge reminders and stuff like that. I use a lot of coloured pens and that, but that's markers, but that's not necessarily other people's way of doing things. That's how I do it. I'd like to go into a wee bit more depth in terms of the process of actually being a stage manager on something this large. But first I'm just wondering, How did you get involved in the queen of the whole universe. Well, originally [00:02:30] having worked at the edge, Um, originally, whilst I was still there in the capacity of an event coordinator, I was asked if I'd like to actually be in the show representing our centre. And I felt strange about that because all my theatrical work has been done. Not for a company such as the centre. And I didn't feel right doing it for them. I wanted to. If I was going to be involved, it had to be for me. [00:03:00] If you understand that, that sounds terribly shall for selfish. But it had to be on my terms, not not what they wanted me to be. Um and I went along first of all to I've been to one or two of the shows and I'd worked out front of house as well on one show, I think, and then I decided that I would be involved. When they asked me to go on stage, I said, No, I'll do dressing because I've done dressing before backstage, and, uh, I said, I'll do that. And at dress rehearsal, [00:03:30] they realised that they needed somebody to call the show, and they said, Will you call it? And I said Yes, because I've done shows like that before, where you just do it on the spot, you know? So, um, it brought for all my learnings. It must have been quite nerve wracking, yes, but I was used to it because being a stage manager at a place like a centre, where shows come in all the time. If it's a big running show, of course they've got their own team, their technical team, et cetera. [00:04:00] But if it's if it's a smaller show, say I don't mean a smaller one. I can remember calling once for the Auckland Phil and the they wanted lighting special lighting. No done not just down in the house and up on the stage. They they had a handwritten orchestral score. And have you seen how an orchestral score is? You know what it's like. So it's handwritten. But being handwritten, of course, everything was a bit squashed, you know. And the, uh [00:04:30] the, uh, conductor was from America. I think I'm not sure. And, um, he said, You know, I want these lovers said later, Bloody hell, how am I going to read this score and I got one of the Auckland film to, uh, help me with it and they couldn't even read it properly. But you just learned very quickly, and you just learned very quickly how to do things very quickly. And because I love it so much, you know, And the adrenaline goes sky high that it it helps you through. So what were the main experiences or memories you have of that? That [00:05:00] first show that you worked on? Not much, except which I can't say under there. No, not much. Except that I was totally focused. Um, and because there was very little time or no time really to get to know anybody. You have to be focused anyway when you're stage managing. But if I go to rehearsals, I get to know the people and that sort of thing, and that's quite different. But this time I hadn't been to any rehearsals, so I didn't know who was who. Because when you see them [00:05:30] backstage with their costumes on, they mean absolutely nothing to you. Except you learn to recognise that they are Miss England, or they must be Miss Japan, you know, And you just yes, that first one was totally, totally focused on what I had to do here. Not not even looking out there sort of thing unless it was done by a movement at all. It was much more simple in those days, too. Jonathan has grown. It's grown hugely. And the, um, [00:06:00] the technicians backstage at a centre are are chosen. Specifically, I think I'm not sure for that show. Who are Pae with the show and know that, um, there will be a lot of a few flies. And there will be, um, a few and that sort of thing, so and they're not going to be anti at all. They're not anti, you know, and I know most of the technicians [00:06:30] anyway, so it's easier for me. And it also must be quite a different type of show in that you're dealing with maybe people that have not done theatre before. Yes, that's always different. Yes. So how was that on that? On that on that first time for you? Oh, I get very bossy. Shorten coming from a teacher, a school teacher, family. I get very bossy. And I warn them now beforehand. And they know that I'm going to warn them [00:07:00] that on the night and during rehearsal, the last rehearsal, perhaps I'm not really interested in anything else, especially not egos. I'm only interested in the show and people have come to see it. And therefore I'm I'm they've paid money and they will do as I ask them to please. I will say please as an afterthought, but they all know that I'm a little dragon on stage, you know, on the last night, and they all know [00:07:30] to behave sort of thing, you know? And I did blow somebody up on the first night who went out the front curtains. He was a backstage person and he went out the front curtains and I blew him up because that's not what you do. That's what a rank amateur would do. I mean, you very you would rarely see that even an amateur theatre these days people know not to do that. But he did that, and, um, I sort of had to come off my high horse a bit. [00:08:00] I guess it's an education thing, like I mean, if you are turning up at rehearsals, then they will get to know that, I guess, well, that Well, yes, but it's just to me. It's common sense. But then you have to realise I have to try and realise that these people, especially backstage helpers who come in on the last moment, some of most of them they don't know the etiquette of theatre. And they haven't got it in their minds that they're not the stars, that the show to me is [00:08:30] the star and that people have come to see magic regardless of whether it is semi amateur. I don't like the word amateur because to me everybody's kind of striving to be professional, and and it's the audience have come to see magic, regardless of whether it's an orchestra on stage or whether they we do have a proce march with the curtains going across. You know it's magic to them, and therefore [00:09:00] you don't show at any time. You don't cross that fourth wall sort of thing unless it's part of the show. And I don't like, I just don't like that behaviour. I'm not very tolerant of it, I'm afraid so. How did you get into stage managing? Um, years and years and years ago I did a little bit in amateur Theatre in Christchurch. Um, I was usually on stage, but, um, sometimes I quite liked the stage managing. [00:09:30] And then when I got I, I in 1990 I did diploma of drama and realised that I quite liked that backstage technical stuff. And I've done a fair bit of technical stuff before anyway. And, um um, So I was a year out of, um, any sort of, uh, work force. And so I, uh, applied at the test centre. Not sure if it was that following year or not, but, [00:10:00] um, they gave me the job and I sort of picked it up from there and read a lot of books and did a lot of courses and that sort of thing, you know, did a few courses in it. What are the main attributes for a good stage manager? Loud voice. It's quiet at the moment. You have to be calm. No matter if inside everything is falling apart, you can't show that. And also in an emergency, [00:10:30] if somebody asks you something in an emergency, I will hesitate before I answer because it has to be the calmest answer. And often they think I'm not thinking about it, but it has to be the calmest. You also have to be able to think of several things at once. You've got technicians in this ear. You've got somebody in this ear and you've got a speaker here with the music and people and you've got what is visual out on stage. And so you have to keep sort of [00:11:00] a handle on all of it. And sometimes you can't listen to any of it. And you just have to you have to say, you know, quiet and everybody could shut up while you do the queues and that sort of thing. You know, um, I think also you have to be friendly. You have to be similar to a mum sort of on stage. I suppose that's easier for somebody my age. I don't know. For the younger people, it's quite different, but I think they're also a kind of mum on the stage as well. [00:11:30] I can remember doing something for a group of musicians who'd been on the road for a very, very long time, and this was their last, their last stage in New Zealand and they needed a hug and that's easy for me. because I'm older, you know? And sometimes people just need that. Um uh, I've come towards the end, particularly on dress rehearsal and particularly on the night, extremely focused. And they know not to talk to me too much. Yeah. [00:12:00] Um, what other things do they need? Patients and very much patience. And you need to, um, also have a lot of, um, physical strength in in some ways in that it's tiring. It can get really, really tiring. And you just have to find that adrenaline from somewhere. But that's for everybody on stage. It can be very, very tiring for everybody. [00:12:30] Theatre is terribly glamorous from those who for those who don't do it. Who did you meet? What did you say? What did you do? Uh, there's quite a few people I've met, actually, but I wouldn't tell you. Yes, I think it's glamorous, but it's not. It's a hard job. It's 90% standing around and 10% pure adrenaline. Can you describe for me what the kind of backstage feeling was like on that the first time that you were with Queen of the whole universe? [00:13:00] It's very difficult to get people who are not used to theatre to be quiet backstage because there's no fourth wall, and I think they think that there's hard walls all the way around. But there's not. There's only legs, and you've got to be careful because anything that happens at the side there can be heard by the audience. And depending on where you're standing, can be seen by the audience. [00:13:30] And it's very hard to show people not to stand like the legs are here going on to the stage. There's the audience out there. They're there and I'll do it that way. You are the kind of drop down the short one, so they're that way. You're the audience. But if they stand here and they can see the audience, the audience can see you. So it's very hard to explain to people right from the start. When you're on the stage, don't stand [00:14:00] in those positions. If you can see the audience, they can see you don't peek out just to see mum or dad or whoever don't do any of that and shush. I still have problems with shush backstage. Yes, they get excited, they're excited, whereas those who do theatre all the time professionals do theatre all the time. Know to stay focused backstage anyway, uh, you know, they know not to chatter backstage, but they're excited, and they've got their big hats on, and they, you [00:14:30] know, they're excited. So how do you tell people to when you can't? Actually, I'm probably blowing your mic out there. You don't do it as a kind of AAA facial gesture or because I'm looking at that. And if they still don't I I I'm in contact with the stage manager Steve, and I tell him I say to him, Tell them to shut up now [00:15:00] and that he knows by the sound of my voice that I mean it. So in your role, are you the kind of head controller of the backstage area? Or is there somebody? No. Steve is. Steve and I are sort of partners, and he's learned a hell of a lot in a very short time, and he's very good at it. His job is massive with with coordinating people and getting them into the right place and coordinating everything backstage, and that normally that is done. Um, you [00:15:30] do. You do have and big shows that are travelling say you have a head stage manager who does that and the deputy stage manager who will call or they will reverse roles throughout the season. Um, so it's a kind of hand in hand and I call him boyfriend. He calls me girlfriend, but it's a kind of yes, it's a partnership, and he he knows what I do, but he couldn't do [00:16:00] it and I know what he does and I couldn't do it. His job, You know, we could if we had to, but we don't choose to. So has it been the same team for a number of years doing that? Uh, Steve for about three or four years, three or four years? And before that there was someone else who was doing it, and he had had some experience, a little bit of experience with with Amateur Theatre, and I'm not sure if he had had some experience with Auckland film as well. I'm not sure. Does it make it easier having that kind of through line [00:16:30] with somebody that's been there for three or four years because they know what the show is like, and it's not like any other backstage because it's so big. And because you've got so many men in high heeled shoes and because you've got frocks that are huge and hair and and stuff that are huge, it is not like a normal a normal theatre backstage. Um, if you have normal theatre in the centre in particular, you've usually got a musical [00:17:00] or something like that. And there's not big hair, big frocks, Um, and they're all They've all been touring or something like that for years, so they know their place sort of thing. I don't mean that rudely. They know their space and area, but with something like Queen of the whole universe, they are, um, you know, it's a wonderful show for them, and it's a wonderful vehicle for them. And it shows their talents as a as a person and as a dancer and as a creative person, with their dresses and their hair and that sort of thing. [00:17:30] And, um, they often don't know the backstage etiquette as well. Perhaps yeah, so perhaps, can we go through the the process of, um, going through the initial ideas to the rehearsal to the performance? When do you become involved? At what point? Um, I don't have anything to do with the ideas at all. This is just Jonathan. And I guess Kevin has a huge input too. And, um uh, I go to rehearsals [00:18:00] as much as Well, yes, I go to all rehearsals. And what do you do at rehearsals? Sit and listen. And if anybody's away, I will join in with with, um, Jonathan. And he and I have some rude moments together, and that's good. I was like that. Um but, uh, yes, I join in if there's somebody's away and they need, you know, if it's the group whole group doing everything together, I'll I'll join in because you get used to the movements [00:18:30] and stuff. Yeah. So are you actually documenting things as the rehearsal goes? Is there kind of like a script or no? Jonathan writes the script with with me in mind and with the others in mind, and we usually have a a big talk beforehand. The back backstage people like Steve and myself and Jonathan and Kevin and and Jan will come along, too. And we talk about the way to move things and how to do things. And that's their area. And then I talk. We talk about lights and sound [00:19:00] and that sort of thing with me. But I've always got beforehand. Um, I've got any words for songs, particularly the first piece that is usually made up, say, of 345 songs with With Movement and that and I've usually got that early on because I like to follow that so that I get it in my head and can send it along with them and know also where I am. And then he'll give me the queues within that quite early. So I'll start [00:19:30] in my head sitting in my little corner. I'll start calling the queues so that I know what's happening and what they're doing at that time. If it's a visual queue and when you say queue, what what What is that? What? What is a queue? A queue is, um, could be a lighting queue. Lighting change. It could be a fly queue for something to come down. Um, it could be an a V queue for something to go up, um, on the screen. Or it could be it won't be a sound cue because that his first sounds go right the way [00:20:00] through you know they're a compilation that he has done that Jonathan has done or had done for everything. And, um, I just need to know where stuff comes. I like to listen to the music and know where it's coming and where the changes come. And I will mark on my script. If if of the of the words, if that's a long note there, I'll mark it with my own little higher graphics. Is this Where is this? Where the, um, the coloured pens come in? No. First of all, it'll be pencil. [00:20:30] Everything's pencil. First of all, the the coloured pens don't come in until I know that is complete, and it will come in usually on the day of performance. And what do they refer to, um, lighting, sound and a V and everything like that? So the coloured pens come into my cues and my like. The script is written down like this. But first of all, my first script of the first piece is usually just on this way, done this way with words, and I've got notes all [00:21:00] over it. But then, when the coloured, when the actual, um, script comes in there, there's Buffy and bimbo narrative. And then, um, what has happening and sound and music and blah, blah, blah and lights and all that sort of thing. And that's where I put my cues and and all my notes and what's happening. And Buffy and Bimbo are going to talk for a long time there. I know that and, uh, all sorts of things, just just my general notes that I know that I need to have. I should have brought them along, shouldn't I? [00:21:30] Sorry to show you, because I've got some that I've kept, you know, and they're full of notes. But if I write it down like that, I very rarely have to return to that unless it's a really tight series of cues that I have to remember for this one that's written this way, I still follow it and and that. But if there's any notes on the side having written them down, I remember it, you know, And when [00:22:00] you're writing cues, is it a specific language that you use? It's just QLX one or SS slash BYQLX two. That'll be stand by LXQ, and I'll have NT for Enter and XT for Exit or, um, SX one or something. Something like that. Navy, um, is the is the projection and flies is FLY. I don't try [00:22:30] to change it to FLIES. So when you're actually calling the show, you're talking in that kind of code. No, I'll say stand by one XQ. One go. And it has to be. If they go too soon, I tell them off. I'll I'll say that's too soon because what might be on the script may not quite happen in reality. So you have to be aware that it's a feel thing as well as an actual thing. You know, if somebody said something and there is a pause [00:23:00] and the LXQ is supposed to come on right on that. But there's But there's, um, lighting going on or some there's a pause or something, something. You got to feel that and do it then, so I don't like people doing it too soon. I like them to listen to me, and it has to be positive. You have to give lighting sound and a about 10 seconds stand by, but flies have to have about 30 seconds stand by because they have to go to the rope and then take off the brake [00:23:30] and hold. And, um, you know, that all takes time. LX is what light? OK, so and X is or S FX is sound, Um, a V is what's coming up on the screen and flies is flies, of course. And if it's a if it's a, uh, pyro thing, it's just usually pyro if it's pyrotechnics, but we don't have that, please don't have fire or pyro. You can have some. I did [00:24:00] a show for Mike Misa once, and it was a huge one, and it was an awards. And he Mike mis he is just an amazing do. You know him in his work. He will dream something, and he has the ability to actually create that dream. He is. He he works for Louis Vuitton stuff. Now he's he's he's just an amazing, and he and his wife are just an amazing partnership and all the people around him. And he had coming on a [00:24:30] a man who was on fire followed by, So he had to had to be tortured on that side and come across and be doused on this side, followed by a huge, huge, huge draught horse was feet like that. And this draught horse didn't like it back stage in rehearsal. And he got all snorty and stuff. But during the actual show, when his hat man was platter in that [00:25:00] talk about a show pony and his bottom Is this thing going past you? You know, and his feet are this big, but those are the days. Those are the days when you're glad that that part of the show is over. Yes. So, have you tried to interest Jonathan in doing something? Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You have to have professionals. Um, not that Jonathan's not, but I mean, you'd have to He would have to hire somebody or or or coerce them to be in the show who are professionals with fire or anything like [00:25:30] that. But horses, animals, horses in particular, You know, that's a big thing. Horses are because they have to be stabled somewhere nearby, and they have to be stabled on the in the car dock. And yes, it's quite a difficult thing. It's not an easy thing to do, So just getting back to when you call something, and if somebody does something wrong, and you say that's wrong. Do you have a code for, um, you know, bad messages back to them. [00:26:00] Um, wait for it. Wait for my call, please. I try to keep very calm, and if I've said myself, I say, Oh, dear, you know, But I don't usually I know because it's a live show. And even if you do the same show 20 times, things can still go wrong. And a live show. You've got the audience don't know that something's happened wrong incorrectly. They don't know at all. It's only you that know, [00:26:30] and it doesn't matter that's gone, so it doesn't matter, you know? Um, so no, I don't No, it's a team affair. And if you rubbish your team, um, it doesn't happen. You're only as good as your team, aren't you? And that applies to any business or anything. You're only as good as your team. And, um, I don't think that I'm the boss or anything like that. I'm just working [00:27:00] as a team with everybody. And that includes the actress and Jonathan and Kevin and everybody, you know. Yeah. So in the rehearsal period, do you tell the the queen of the whole universe cast. You know what to expect when you get in the theatre. No, we do that just beforehand. And Jonathan does that. Yeah, and I don't have a talk with them until we're in the stage, because they've got to get used to those who have done it before. No, but those who haven't done it before it can be quite daunting being on a stage [00:27:30] and especially the stage, the A SP Theatre. It's a big stage, and when you look out, there's a massive amount three whole levels of audience there, and this is what they're seeing in their mind's eye. But they see all those seats, and it can be quite daunting for you. And so no, I don't I You know, it's most important that they get used to where they are and how to get around and how to feel. The first thing you've got to tell them is how to [00:28:00] evacuate, of course and what to do and what not to do in the theatre itself. So, no, I never tell people things on the first go or very rarely, anyway, unless it's a massive thing because not only the stage would be different in looking out to the audience, but things like, um, dressing rooms and where people congregate and that must all change. Yes, it does, because when we rehearse, we're only rehearsing in a hall. And usually it's It's the grey [00:28:30] um, Hall library hall, which is great, but the theatre. It's bigger. So the lines where they've been squashed out the first rehearsal is an orientation where your dressing rooms are, how you get there, how the sounds, Um, and they often don't know what is. So they have to listen. And and you know what A is A. Is a, um, a speaker system to each dressing room, named after the [00:29:00] person who, um, thought of it, I think, and it's a speaker system to every dressing room, and they need to be aware of it on their They also have the background music of what's happening on the stage, which they can turn down. But my voice doesn't turn down. And if there's an emergency, an emergency overrides my voice and everything. Yeah, so that's that's what they need to listen to. Uh, they need to know things like [00:29:30] upstage and downstage, which, and they need to know. People need to know why I feel upstage was was when the stages were raked. Now the audience are raped. But upstage was obvious. Downstage was here, there's the audience and they were sitting on the flat. Now it's there. They're sitting there and we're on the flat. Some old stages are still raked a bit. Yeah, but those words are still used, you know, Um and so they need to know a fair bit of that sort of thing. You know, uh, just [00:30:00] stage etiquette stage mannerisms. Um uh, where they as I say, where their dressing room is and where Jonathan and, uh, and not to touch them unless they have to sort of thing and knock on their door. And yes, yes. And I use the dress room because the stage manager's room is just a room for some reason. In the art centre, it doesn't have a toilet. So I go into the toilet and that's my last minute rituals. You see it down here at rituals, [00:30:30] you know, And I think when I was on stage, I always had to go in and have a But now I only have to have a quick way and they all know Look out! Alison's coming through for a quick wee. Is that five minutes to curtain? Oh, yes. After before my last call to everybody. Oh, and I teach them also the calls, because the half hour call is at if the show is gonna start at eight. So the half hour call is 25 past seven, and the quarter [00:31:00] hour call is 20 to 8, and the five minute call is 10 to 8, and the standby is at 5 to 8. So that that gives if you need to. But usually they think the standby call is actually on the day, but I've explained it to them, but they're also, you know, and that rehearsal to that that orientation rehearsal is to sort out for Steve and his team to sort out where the stuff is, [00:31:30] how they're going to move it. That's a massive job, how they move things on and off stage, which is done. First of all, too, in a meeting when we know how big everything is because we've been to their rehearsals as well. Um, how they're going to get people on and off stage, you know, a lot of people come off stage and just like they get off, lifts people, they get off lifts and just stay there. Or they get off an escalator and stand there and people are coming through, you know? [00:32:00] And often I'll see somebody getting changed in the wings and I'll always have a torch. So I'll shine a torch. Um, whilst I'm reading that just so that they can see or I'll shine something down on the ground so that if they've had a bright light on them, they can see when they're coming out, Um, off stage or shine, just help them on and off stage. I don't leave my area unless I have to have a visual cue of people's movements if something's coming down, [00:32:30] you know, so that I'm calling the flies. But there's somebody in the way. Yeah, So do you have much to do with, um, Buffy bimbo throughout the show? Oh, yes. Oh, yes. What are some of the stories? Well, I've got a photo in the last one. I should have brought it. Um, of me. It was, um um dress wasn't done up and we were lacing it and bimbo was trying to do that, too. And Bimbo was trying to do something else. So I started the lacing at the bottom, [00:33:00] and bimbo was at the top because they're so much taller than I am. So here are these two. And here am I here, you know, and we got it done, you know, because you have to do it. I think they were going out on a, um I think they had to go out there because they've got a lot of work to do out in front of house. First of all, you know, it doesn't Nothing bothers me backstage if I see anybody, or I often ask how they manage to tuck that away sort of thing, you know? And they tell me gaffer [00:33:30] tape. And I think Oh, no, no. How could you possibly do that? But, you know, um, I just love working with them because they all accept me. They they they know I'm not gay. And and I mean, some people who are part of it aren't gay and that I think that's the best thing of it all, that we're mostly gay, But some some of us aren't, you know, and I think that's the best thing of it all. And [00:34:00] I've also encouraged a lot of people from sometimes from my work, you know? Have you been to this? Oh, yeah. I wanted to go to that. Well, why don't you go to it, you know, go to it. And I've told people that, you know, it's it's raising funds for the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. I can't do much money wise. I'm not in a position at this time of life to do things that I would like to do if I wanted millions of dollars that I'd have such joy in giving money away. [00:34:30] But I can give my services and my knowledge to somebody and or to an event. And I've learned a lot. Um, when the representative from the New Zealand AIDS Foundation comes around, just before we move into the theatre and she tells us, uh, last time she told us that there's more, there's gonorrhoea and syphilis are coming back, you know? And I think why is it just because we're not wearing condoms? [00:35:00] You know, um, I even taught my said to my sons, You've got to wear condoms for various reasons. The most important at this point in your life is to stop spreading diseases, you know? Did they wear them? Who? Why? I don't know why they're straight guys, but why didn't they do it? You know what's So I feel What's so big? That a man, it's only a man [00:35:30] that feels this, that it's it spoils my enjoyment or tough. As far as I'm concerned, that is not a reason not to wear condoms. You know, women take the pill it most uncomfortable. I took the pill for a long time. It made me bloated and fatter. You know, I've never worn anything else, but, um, I can imagine they're very uncomfortable. Um, what's so bad about wearing a condom that men feel [00:36:00] they're emasculated? For some reason, if they don't wear one or it's not as enjoyable, get a life. That's my answer to it. Get a life. There are so many Children in this world that aren't loved because the male didn't wear a condom. And there are so many diseases in this world that are not only part of the gay community, they're part of all of us. AIDS is part of all of us because the man wouldn't wear a condom, [00:36:30] get a life. That's all I have to say about that. Really. I just get, uh the older I get, the more angry I become about people's preciousness. Life is the precious thing, Not your pleasure. You can have just as much pleasure with a hand job as far as I'm concerned. And it's interesting that the somebody from the AIDS Foundation comes and talks to the group before before the performance Hands out lollies [00:37:00] that they all love chocolate bars. But that's just a bit of a joy thing and gives us all, um, condoms. Yes, for the event. Um, yes, as well. I think condoms are available in the event as well. Um oh, sorry. Sorry. Possibly I don't know. I don't see those sort of things, but, um, definitely out in the foyer, I think this condoms available. And, um, to me, they should [00:37:30] be freely available, you know? And it shouldn't be the New Zealand AIDS Foundation that has to sponsor that. It should be. I don't know, the health department, the New Zealand go, which comes back to the New Zealand government, and all governments must take responsibility. I feel you know. So you were saying earlier that, um, during the performance, you are absolutely focused and, you know, get quite stern. Where is the enjoyment for you? At what point do you say, Wow, this is fantastic. This is great all the way through. [00:38:00] So you can be You can be stern and and yes, all the way through. It's the it's It's the joy of my mind going flat out. It's the joy of working with technicians, whom I just I just love being in that area. It's the joy of working with performers whom I just love working in that area with Anne, Buffy and Bimbo and the audience, because I think it's the [00:38:30] whole thing, isn't it? It's the it's the audience and it's you. I did a one man show once a one person show, once as an actor, and somebody said to me, Don't you feel lonely? And I said, No, it's you and the audience. You're working together for this show. It's the whole, the whole thing. I love being on going into the dark and stage and knowing there's magic performed out there. It's the whole thing. And afterwards, um, I find it unable to go celebrating immediately. [00:39:00] I need to go on stage and help with pulling up the gaffer tape and the tape and all that sort of thing and packing away. Whereas my husband, he works on the, uh not on the ay side with this, but he's an Navy technician and an Navy editor and that sort of thing, you know, and he can't stand it. He likes the preparation and the show, and then he needs to walk away. Whereas I like to do the preparation, the rehearsals, the show and stay there and help to clear out that [00:39:30] that that is the not the funeral, the They're going back to normality. Perhaps, I don't know, because that can't be normal all the time, can it? You'd love to do it all the time, but it can't be normal. So that's for me going normal. And then I go out and have a drink or four. So again, that's a kind of a ritual that you do. Do you do that for all the shows? Yes. Yes, yes, yes, and I've always done it. I've gone on stage afterwards and helped pack out. [00:40:00] And that sort of thing. Yes, it's just it's just my It's my way of coming down, you know, I need to come down from that. If I didn't come down from that, I wouldn't be able to sleep properly. It takes a long time to learn to sleep properly. After these, um, often people will say, Oh, you know that if they if they're only short term, they've they've spent so much time trying to get to sleep again. It does take a long time. So you've got to come down off that adrenaline and if the next day [00:40:30] you're absolutely stuffed and I mean poor Steve, if we're down in Wellington, has to drive the truck all the way home, you know? And he has to keep that adrenaline still going. But you're absolutely stuffed the next day and maybe for two or three days afterwards. And it's only because you've used up all your adrenaline. You know, we're looking now towards the, uh, final queen of the whole universe beauty pageant, and I'm just wondering, if you had any thoughts on that, everything [00:41:00] has to come to a natural end, and I think probably it's run its course. He will have something else in mind for sure, though for sure.

IRN: 493
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ATL REF: OHDL-003936
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089230
TITLE: Storm - Q12
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VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Hamilton; Q12 (series); United States of America; Waikato Queer Youth; abuse; alcohol and drug abuse; arts; bisexual; coming out; gender identity; homophobia; labels; performance; poetry; relationships; sex; sexuality; stereotypes; suicide; writing; youth
DATE: 16 March 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Waikato, Waikato, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Storm talks about being young and bisexual in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm pretty good. What's your name? My name is Storm Cloud. That's a That's a interesting name. Uh, it's it's part stage name, part actual name. So it's It's that English or Yeah, Yeah. Uh, cloud is not my real last name. I just prefer it better Storm. So, uh, is a middle name of mine, But, uh, my first name is also my dad's name and his dad's name and his dad's name. So he just been called storm since birth. OK, so, um, can you tell [00:00:30] us about yourself? Um, I am 20 years old. I am a poet from Hamilton. Spoken with a poet. Um, do you want my whole life story in a nutshell or just Oh, it's up to you. Um, I was born in the States. I am from Seattle. Washington. Um, Dad is a bit of a loser. Uh, he's he's he's from the States. And, uh, Mom's from Thames. And, [00:01:00] uh, we moved here. Me and my father in 2001. Yeah, 2001. It's just over a decade ago. Uh, just so we can get in in connection with Evers. Um, went from from a city that houses that house at the time 3 million people to a little tiny town of of, like, a handful of 1000 possibly probably more. And, uh, then moved to Hamilton in 2004, uh, picked up poetry from, uh, from [00:01:30] when I went flatting when I was 17. 18. Uh, when I went to an open mic night at the library, it was international poetry. And I've been a musician since I was really, really, really young writing songs and and composing. And so I just decided to write a poem to the beat. Someone told me it was really, really good at the open mic night, and there were spoken words. So you tubed it, um, Got inspiration from of my idols, Phil King, who I'm performing with tonight. And, um, from from [00:02:00] there just came up. Just did a whole heap of competitions last year here in Auckland, Um, got got pretty high rank to get back to Hamilton and just started to create a culture. I teach a class of about, uh, 2020 students, mostly uni students. I have I have, uh a lot of I have a couple of single mothers. I have a few teenagers fresh, fresh, in high school, still in high school. I have people who bust up a couple of times from out of town just just to be there. So [00:02:30] it's it's really, really gratifying. And and it's just really I'm really thankful that people find, um, poetry and especially my poetry, but just poetry in general, so engaging, especially in the spoken word game. Um, So your poetry, um, they're very strong message based, aren't they? Uh, yeah, yeah, my mind. Poetry is is really I. I find it really strong. Um, like like the messages are [00:03:00] are really quite bold. A lot of some of the other poets I hang around with have have really subtle messages, but, uh, I've I've been told mine are really sharp and to the 0. 1 of the first poems I wrote was about my, uh was it was about a friend of mine who, who I won't name, who came over from the states and the state with his uncle. He was 17. I was 15 at the time, and, um, I saw him getting the bashing down because he was he was wearing this. I'm I'm something. Something something he just had gay on the T shirt. [00:03:30] He's getting the bash for it. So I I cleaned him up after made good friends, and he was telling me that he stayed with this guy, Took kids. He's an older homosexual guy. Um, yeah, I. I didn't I didn't know his name. He was He was late late fifties, Took in about 10 kids. Um, from from any culture, every culture who was just on the streets for for any Any reason. And, uh, the poem I wrote was about Benny being with this guy and this guy getting hated [00:04:00] on so intensely by by the people from my hometown Hamilton getting hated on. And he eventually committed suicide from it. And I don't remember the poem at all. But since then I've been writing. I've been writing a lot of queer identity, gender identity things, uh, in in amongst all all the other stuff that I wrote. I wrote it for the audience just because it it speaks to me. I've had such a connection to that from from a very young age. So [00:04:30] is that one of your main passions Since um, since that moment is that one of your main inspirations Inspirations for poetry? Um, yeah, for for poetry, Uh, especially for poetry and music as well. It's, um Here comes the S and, uh, yeah, II. I write a lot about my own internal struggle with my own sexuality. Um, my own [00:05:00] gender identity as well. Um, and and really, what? What makes a man what makes a man a man? What makes a woman a woman? What makes a person really a person, but with within those those general compounds of that. So, um, have you done a part about your when you came to realise? Um, not quite. When I'm I'm not fully out of the closet. It's, um which is kind of weird, because I did go to a queer youth group. [00:05:30] I go to you. It's a fantastic place when I went there, Um, and just meeting all these all these young people younger than me who have been out of the closet for years since they were 13. I was 13. And, um I know, I know. Um, yeah, since they were 13, 14, 15. Just II I went. I started going when I was 17 and I'm not officially at home. It's just something I don't talk about, not because I am embarrassed, not because I'm intimidated [00:06:00] or afraid. It's just I I've been a part of the gay scene. It's It's not something I'm into. But, um, identifying with it, yeah, all my friends know workmates have known. And II, I think if I tell my mother like like, straight up, tell her mum I'm gay, she'd be like, OK, that's sweet. I love you no matter what, But before you leave the house, wear a helmet, elbow pads, knee pads Make sure that you wear full body armour. It's a difficult world out out there for you people. And and [00:06:30] I'm afraid you should get super protection and forget that I've been on my own for for a few years. So, um, so you're still technically in the closet in some sort of way. It's gonna sound really bad, but I don't believe in labels. I know I know it sounds cliche and and being unlabeled or, in that category, miscellaneous as a label by people who label label, label, label label label. I said it 10 times. I'm pretty sure um, like I realised that I wouldn't call myself [00:07:00] in a closet. I wouldn't. Wouldn't think there has been any closet, at least in my life. Um, I've never been afraid to say who I am. I mean, I I'm a whole bunch of different other things. Like I. I identify as being like, I've had to label it bisexual, leaning towards men. But I like what I like. And, um, like, I'm a whole bunch of other things than than bisexual. I'm I'm half class Maori. I'm American. I'm a spoken word poet. I'm at the moment [00:07:30] morbidly obese. Uh, I am a recovering alcoholic. I I'm trying to quit smoking. I'm a whole different. I'm a whole bucket load of things and and that's just one little part of me. So you don't like to be as your main self as the gay or bisexual person as you are. You want to be known as these many things that just this little tiny thing kind of thing. My my ultimate goal in life is, [00:08:00] um, is just to be happy. And my ultimate goal in life is a as as a performer as a poet is is for people to love my work because that's who I write it for. That's who I perform it for, and and writing it for them and then loving it, then them getting really into it and awakening something in them, really making letting themselves feel connected to that little part of me that's that's lived life is, um, really, really, really [00:08:30] special. What was the question again? Going off on tangents? Yeah. Um, so you don't like to be You don't want to be identified as one other person? Um, when I went to, uh, the youth group Youth, um, there there was being being so young and not really having, like for myself having gay around me all the time. That sounds bad. Having having [00:09:00] gay culture around me all the time. I. I didn't know that gay culture existed until, um, like, halfway through high school, uh, I I found out that a lot of gay men, specifically a lot of gay young men, think of sex as, uh, think of gay as a sexuality, which is true, but sexuality as being sex is like only doing it's only a sexual thing, and not a real life kind of thing. [00:09:30] Yeah, or or the lifestyle revolves around sex and and, you know, sex equating to love for for those young men who who haven't, you know, matured enough yet and being Oh, well, gays, sexuality, sexuality, sex, sex is love. Don't you love me? That that sort of thing? I, uh I don't really present myself as that when I present myself as a gay male and, um, I I really [00:10:00] want I really try to push that in my in my poetry, in my work, in my music and everything Fair. So, um, with your would you like to sit and do a strong poet? Yes, please. Ok, this is a poem called Equality. What is it about? Um this poem is about me at one time struggling with my own gender identity. And when [00:10:30] I was young, I used to be quite a girly kid. I remember my father really, really love genuinely loved me until I started playing with Bobby dolls. And like, who? Who who knows what what Gay is at such a very young age, like under 10 years old and sorry. Sorry again and and and me struggling with gender identity because feminism has come such a long way. The whole feminist activist sort sort of thing where women [00:11:00] weren't allowed to work. Now that now they all vote now they're allowed to vote work, be equal to men every single way. And they can. They can do both the things that that typically a man or traditionally a man and woman can do. But God forbid that little boys pick up boxing gloves and Barbie dolls. You know what I mean? So, um, this this is the poem and it's called Equality. Sometimes I wish I had been born a woman just so I can be recognised [00:11:30] for being powerful and full of manner. And so this alternative body of a full figure and childbearing is ships to be a sign of pride instead of shame that it seems to me like, um, one big sister always doing it for himself for the longest of times, for that lack of father and excess of motherhood shunned by the fellowship of men calling themselves the Brotherhood so ashamed to admit that power is not the same strength. And I wonder, if I'd been born a woman, [00:12:00] would I have got would I have gotten to keep those boxing gloves and that Barbie doll from my childhood, as well as that long, curly raven black hair that you call feminine, and I simply called her. And would I still be sick to death of that baby boy blues look smooth, swarf like attitude targeted at the age group of men that I was never pushed through by media pop culture crap pushing feminist Saturday morning cartoon sloganeering. You can do whatever a man can do but better and better [00:12:30] and better. And I wonder if I'd been given that power to give life. What kind of life would I have led if I didn't have society and my father's screeching down the back of my head? Be tough? Oh, no. Could you fucking moaning? Could your bloody crying? What are you, some sort of girl? If I had been born at the the would I still have all these obstacles sets in my path Road ultimate destination set there by stigma and social dick against power versus masculinity. So tell me, when do I get to be [00:13:00] purple in this world of black and white? When do I get to stop doing this big Mama always doing it for himself for the longest of time is representing all those pink wallpaper flowers who refuse to be white Washed in that man made manhood painted by the same fellowship of men calling themselves the Brotherhood too ashamed to admit that when you were born, you will rep You will represent your power, your colours through power and manner through an open mind with dual genders [00:13:30] through muscles of the mind, soul and body and not anything else. Because that makes you just as much a man as everyone else. Very strong. Thank you. If I had an audience, they would all be clapping right now. Awesome niceties throw, throw, throw money. So, um, going [00:14:00] from coming out in realisation How about something into personal? How about relationships? How have you been in relationships before? Yeah, I. I have been in a few relationships. Um uh, a few with a few with men and and a and a couple with women. But, um, my my male relationships, they don't last long because I have horrible. I used to have I should say horrible, horrible [00:14:30] taste in men. Horrible taste in men, The the the cheating kind kinds of ones. And, um, for me, I I know, I know. It's the same for a lot of of gay men, at least where I'm from back in Hampton that, uh, you can't you just It's just not done. You don't meet other guys at work. And you you can't pick up people at bars. And it the gay bar. And sometimes not even then, um, it's mostly done over the internet. And, um, San [00:15:00] one, I've only one I haven't found. And all the rest of then from the net or on bi, Facebook, MySpace, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And, um, the last relationship I was in last year was, um, I. I won't tell you his name, but, uh, at a gas station. Oh, I know at a gas station. And why he Yeah, if he ever reads this, he's gonna be here. Is this He's going to be super angry, even though I didn't [00:15:30] tell his name, but fuck him, but yeah, he touched me at the gas station. Um, all all because I had this I. I had this this thing where? Hey, I'm I used to be Really I used to be skinny. I used to be a very I don't know, a heavy set twink, um quite quite attractive. And I found power in in sexuality. I found I found power in that in that sexy kind of sexuality aspect. And, um, [00:16:00] yeah, just all in short, relationships have not lasted long love. And I'm saying that, um af after having a whole bunch of crap men, I have taken a vow of celibacy from April last year. Uh, it's about now, uh, it's it's almost been a year. Wow. And, um, I I found now that I let myself go and and gotten fat that, um um I used to I I've always struggled with my weight and, uh, I [00:16:30] I used in my lightest I've been 100 KGS right now 100 and 60 KGS and I. I do a lot of gym work. I train in and train in K back in town. Um, I'm very muscular, and I know muscle weighs more than fat, but I always thought that the numbers on the scale really meant that I was really, really fat. And I remember a couple of years ago I reached 100 and 10 KGS of of of that was just my base way. I couldn't lose any more weight than that. And I felt so fat. [00:17:00] And I was just thinking, Well, no one's going to love me if I'm if I'm this fat. But now I give anything to just to be that that skinny again because I realised, without with with being abstinent for so long that I can feel beautiful no matter what size I am. And it's not all physical, which which is it's it's really, really amazing. It's it's incredible to feel this way, And I really [00:17:30] wish I could have felt like this years ago, and a lot of other young people both my age younger and and older, who who are still struggling with who who do struggle with with the addiction, like I did, um, another reason why relationships didn't work out because of my sexual addiction. From 15 to 18, Um, I realised this at a party we had to drink as many shots as we had sexual partners, and when I realised I had to do over 300 [00:18:00] uh, I lied and said I, I had to do 30 then I didn't realise how much that really was. And they were like, Whoa, 30 shots. And I was just Oh, shit. But not tell them the real story like, yeah, you know, you got a problem You can't remember faces, names or or barely any places, So yeah. Yeah. Um, what is your definition in virginity? Ah, virginity. Um, [00:18:30] my definition of virginity. Well, I lost it at 15. To a boy at school and, um, in that school zone. And virginity for me is is this little tang semi ta piece of? You know, you're ready and and that's when you should lose virginity. But virginity for me is has always been Hey, you're not ready while you're having sex yet That that sort of thing. When you lose [00:19:00] your virginity, you lose that. That innocence that that you could have retained. Um, yeah, and I I've I've I've done a poem about that earlier today that you heard. Would you like to say that poem? Yeah, for sure. Um, yeah. So this is called T shirts. It's about my sexual addiction from 15 to 18, right? You took my baby in yet I will still find myself spending too many [00:19:30] hours of too many days wasted wishing you wished you were still here spending too much time on stop pocket and wrist watches waiting for you to come back. Too much effort. Keeping these tired, weary eyes open watching for some short sign. You've allowed yourself to change your mind, but you still took my baby. So tell me, when am I supposed to forgive you? When it was, I was being groped and spat on willingly wishes washed in alcohol and self pity, as if you didn't know You knew [00:20:00] I was a virgin. And some days when I find my strength beginning to leave me, I find myself longing for the bitter, sweet, sombre sounds of T shirts, jeans and worn out shoes starting on a bedroom floor. Not my own telling me that I'm home and that I belong, if only just for one night, just to remember what it was like to still have my baby to have some semblance of respect like it was before I let my body and soul be downed and damaged and cut by those [00:20:30] thick, hot shot lashes of lust disguised as love. By this insatiable itch, I just had to scratch from this fire deep in the pits and my spiritual womb wound. You fucked my baby. Don't do anything and everything get you back. You just I said I double it. I'm not that same cheap whore you once knew who traded you away for never learn narcotics and necessities and highs without devastating lows. But in spite of that, I'll still keep on walking the coals that burned my baby. [00:21:00] I'll still keep on juggling the knives that cut you biting the words that wronged you, hiding the holes. We fell down until I realised I took my own baby. Yet I will still find myself spending too many hours or too many days wasted, wishing you wished you were still here, spending too much time on stop pocking and wrist watches waiting for you to come back. Too much effort. Keeping these tired, weary eyes open, watching for some Sure sign. I've allowed myself to change my mind, but I took my own innocence, [00:21:30] and one day I wonder if my strength will fail. Me and I will be left wondering Well, all I'll be waiting for are the bitter, sweet, sombre sounds of T shirts Well done. Very strong messages from another poll. Thank you again. More audiences are clapping. So bunch of bunch of babies, You give me your babies? [00:22:00] Yes. I don't have any babies left to give. I'm sorry. Well, um, so that's the end of the interview. Um, thank you very much for the interview. Thank you for interviewing me. I feel really blessed to have to have some exposure. And any publicity is good publicity. Thank you. Thank you. Have a good day.

IRN: 492
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_dougal.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003935
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089229
TITLE: Dougal - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Dunedin; Q12 (series); Timaru; UniQ (Auckland); Waiau; coming out; drag; education; gay; homophobia; parents; performance; relationships; school; youth
DATE: 15 March 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Dougal talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. What's your name? Do Go, go, Go. Ok, Can you tell us about yourself? Um, I'm 24. 24. I live in Auckland, live in Auckland. Interest, interest, music. I know how to orientation. Orientation or no, Um occupation. Occupation. Um, I suppose I'm [00:00:30] a sales consultant in cosmetics. So you're originally not from Auckland? No, I'm from born in. Tim lived most of my life in and you've lived in all these different areas Kind of place thing. Yes. And Queenstown and Queenstown. So what other areas have you lived in? That's it. That's it. So just the South Island mainland into Auckland. So is it being a big culture shock for you? Not really. Initially [00:01:00] it was like, Christ, the space is huge. Um, but no, No, it's, um not really. It's been quite natural. So you How old are you? 24. 24. Just remembered. 21. Um, what's your gender identity? Male. Your culture, Identity. European and your sexuality. KK. [00:01:30] Yeah. Um when did you realise? Um, I suppose about the age of 11. 11? Yeah. Let's go with that. How did you realise I was sleeping with my best friend? Is what I'm guessing. It's like you had a sleepover or something like that. Yes. [00:02:00] And she had some sort of erection and thought This is It wasn't so much that it was just I wasn't attracted to girls attracted to boys. So So I went down. Unfortunately, at the time. Yeah. So was it just one friend or he had other sexual attractions to other friends as well. Not through friends, but just guys was getting off my friend at the time. So I just went around like, Oh, he's [00:02:30] chill kind of thing. I did at the age of 13. Yes, but well, you don't really necessarily always think like that, but yeah, 11. 30. Yeah. It's what happens when you're drinking a few wines. You forget things. Yes. Um, So how did you feel when you realised at the time? Not good. It was more. OK, Well, this is how it's going down. But I at the time I really wanted Children had a normal life, you know? So, [00:03:00] um, that's right. Still get the girl, do the whole normal heterosexual thing. And, you know, that was the plan at the time. So it was like something like, um Oh, this is you. So you were kind of scared in a way, weren't you? Yeah, I was. I, like, didn't know what my family was going to think. The idea of telling everyone was just a bit much of time. So were you thinking in a way that she couldn't have Children? [00:03:30] Um, when you when you had these feelings of guys? Yes. Well, at that time, I didn't know any other options, really? Back then. Yes. Yeah. So, um, did you feel that you had to keep it a secret from everybody? Absolutely. Strictly secret. Yeah, that everyone apart from people are sick at the time. How we can we boys to sleep with? [00:04:00] Um, just I'd sort of been experimenting from about the age of four, with different friends. But, um, that sort of petered out, I suppose, about the age of nine. And then as 11. I was experienced with my friend at the time, and, um, he was the only one until I came out of 18. But I was only in a couple of years with him, So, um, it was a regular thing with him. [00:04:30] Yeah, did he turned out gay as well, or so it wasn't just one random stage in his life. No, he's now married to Well, we married to a guy in the UK. Yeah. Or civil Union or Yeah, I think there's civil Union over there. I don't think they do. Yeah. Civil union, like us. Kiwis here. Um OK, so you're out of the closet [00:05:00] now, right? Yes. So how did you come out of the closet? I told my best friend, Nicky, the first year I moved out of home, which was when I was 18 while cooking Green Thai curry and, um, at my flat, which I just got. And, um and I told her and she cried and she went and locked out of the bathroom because she wanted to like to date you or something. No, it's because she's always like previously Are you gay? And I'm like, No, no, no, no. [00:05:30] I just basically because I lied to her for quite a while. Well, so you didn't feel ready at the time, so no. When I was at high school, I didn't feel that was inappropriate, um, environment for coming out here. So she was just hurt that you didn't tell her straight away. Yeah, mostly teenage girls. Yes. So how about like your parents? Um, yes. [00:06:00] I never really told either of them so to speak. Um, I mum found out, um, when I was about 19, maybe because I was working with uniq, um, in Otago and I was organising all these events. So I had all these event posters up in my wall like queer tea party and da da da. And I brought my flatmate home for Christmas. Richard from, um [00:06:30] I was living with him. Indeed, in my first flat when I was 18 and I brought him home for Christmas, and I think the family noticed that we were a bit closer than maybe we should be, you know? So, yeah, I think Mum caught on. So when I was away in Auckland with Richard on holiday, she was going from my room and talking to my friend Nicky and going what's going on? And blah, blah, and yeah, So that's how she found out. So was your flatmate at the time your boyfriend or, um, he was from Auckland. He moved down to [00:07:00] He was, um, friends with a mutual friend of ours who was living in the flat. And that's how I met him. And, um, yeah, so it wasn't really my boyfriend? No, I don't know what he was, but there's a little bit of a friend of benefits in a way. Well, there was no benefits until we stopped living together, so we were sort of emotionally involved for a year. And then after I moved out of the flat and went to another flat, he followed me for a little bit and was [00:07:30] living with me for a while. And then, um, you know, got got on once and then, um and that was that. You be, well, kind of. We still remain friends for a while, and I moved up to Auckland because he moved back to Auckland and I moved back up here a while afterwards. And, um, now he's living with his partner in Australia. So, um, what's the main reactions you've gotten? When you came out, I was still pretty positive. Really? Um, [00:08:00] like, I mean, I didn't I didn't tell dad that I was gave him. I think Mum did, and it was sort of understood that I was, but we never really talked about it. And it was It was fine. Um, like, I was in the newspaper and dragged down there, so that was pretty self-explanatory. Really? So yeah. Hey, parents, I'm gay. Had a dr and Dr. What's your drag name did? Vine. Vine. So you do [00:08:30] go on K Road that often? Occasionally. You see me at these events? Um, you can find me at the on these dates? Uh, sometimes. So how about your friends? What are the reactions from them at the time? Well, any time Fine. Hm. Most of my friends are gay at the moment, so yeah. No, there's never been any problems. Really? Nothing [00:09:00] new. No, it's pretty obvious. So So how do you feel about everybody's reactions? Good, but really no problems. Hey, how about how do you feel about when you came out? No, it was good. It went really well. I sort of went from pretending to be straight to, like, full on being gay next day. I was part of uni. It was all go. So did you ever got any new support? Yes. Yes, [00:09:30] you You more specific. My friend Nicky was really supportive. Yeah. After crying in the bathroom, she was fine. She just had a cry. And she was like, No, she was great. She was like, This is a thing called Uniq. You should go. And I was like, Oh, Christ, I Yeah. Anyway, so and then a relationship started with uniq. Yes, which ended up me being, um I'm the collective, which is the managing body and running the event sector for a couple of years as well. So having fun there. [00:10:00] So how about any other organisation? Um, well, after because I ran the event sector for a couple of years because there's no gay bar in Dunedin. So we did like a gay club night called Funk once a month, which was part of uni. But the whole community was obviously invited. And then I got a job with the university student association. Um, working as the, um, queer. [00:10:30] Uh, was it uh, uh, like queer youth community liaison officer, I think was the The title was some big long title, but I was working with, um, kids in schools coming up. So I was contracted by the university to go around and visit the different schools, provide support and information to staff and students and I worked along with a lot of community organisations as well, basically just being a liaison officer between things like great crisis and all sorts of stuff. So did you have to do any training? Um, [00:11:00] not really. Um I I did here. What's the one looking for mediation? That's the one. It's been so long since I've done this. I did? Yeah. So I did like a P mediation course and all that sort of stuff. Yeah. So you've been in a relationship before, right? Technically, what counts as a relationship boyfriend, boyfriend kind of thing? Not really. No, not really, No. Well, I guess I went out with a guy a little bit last year for about two [00:11:30] months, but I wouldn't really count it as a relationship, Really. It was sort of quite short lived it. I wouldn't Yeah, I wouldn't really count it, to be honest. Was it a bit messy? No, it was just more of a It didn't. There was no real mutual anything there at the end of the day. So nice spark. No, um, Has you coming out affected that at all, or you when you realise, Has [00:12:00] that ever affected your relationships. I don't think so. No. No. Um, how about has any of the reactions from your friends or family affected your relationships? No. You must have been pretty supportive. That's good. Um, how do you meet other people? How do I meet other people? Yeah, out and about Socially. Generally. Yeah. So, um, how about, like Facebook? Yeah. [00:12:30] I haven't really met that many people on Facebook grinder. No, definitely not. No NZD. Um yeah, back in the day, I think I've met a few people off, but generally the people I knew first anyway, but not really at all. And manhunt? No, it is, but never been on it. Whatever it is, that's no. Um, so this is a big [00:13:00] hard question. What is your definition of virginity? Not to have had sex. Just haven't had sex before. In a way, yes. Penetrative sex or all the above. Any touching kind of things. Have you ever received any abusive behaviour because of your sexuality before? Generally? No. Um, [00:13:30] the only incident that comes to mind. I was walking through Mount Wellington once I got lost, and I was trying to find my way to a training event for work. And, um, someone threw a pump bottle out the window of a moving car at me, but that was about it. I don't know if that's necessarily gender or um based, but that probably I think it probably was at the time. I think I was checking it randomly. I was like, Oh, whoops. Um, yeah. So, um, [00:14:00] being out in Dunedin and being out in Auckland is that a bit different? But do you feel different being out in two different places? Yes, I went back to recently and I did a drag show down there and I went out one night and dragged because my friend made me and, um, went to a bar that I used to go to all the time. And on my way out, they've been pretty, not really inside, just in general. There's a whole group of us, and I was the only one in drag on the way [00:14:30] out. The security guard on the way past whispered to me in my ear, um, and stay out as I was leaving, and I was just like, Oh, well, that was interesting. So yes is quite conservative. And actually, once when I was in my office down there in drag after doing the show. Um, so everything's on site at university, the office and the club and everything. Um, yeah, some people tried to get into the office. It's a glass door office, and I was in there, like away printing out something. And so, yeah, it's a bit they don't see that sort of thing that it's [00:15:00] not accepted. So it's a bit rough down there. Yes and no, like, people are really, really nice. But some people just don't understand. So they Yeah. Do you feel that they're not educated or Yeah, I think so. That's the thing about Auckland. You see lots of stuff up here, and people don't mean you can walk up and down Cave road and do whatever. I've been walked up and down road and drag their gears, and I've never had a problem whatsoever. But, um, you know, when you go down to a small place that never see that type of stuff. But then again, we did a show in a tiny little farming community called [00:15:30] outside of Christchurch. Everyone was fantastic. Like, um, we did a full 45 minute drag show with three drag queens. And, um, it was great. So it just it depends on the context. May. How about Well, that depends. They probably expected that kind of thing. Obviously, they knew we were coming, but, um yeah, from people who aren't into that sort of thing and small town, they can be a bit confrontational at times, a lack of education because they just they don't know any better and they don't understand it. So therefore they get scared [00:16:00] and they some people react violently or abusively. Do you ever think that it's, um, dangerous and, well, let's start. Do you think it's dangerous for a flamboyant gay or a drag queen walking through a small town? It can be, um, especially, for example, if you're in drag. People usually know that you're gay because it's a very obvious statement, you know, so or if you're being overly as, as you said flamboyant. Yes, I think, um, and people [00:16:30] can easily identify it, and you're making the public point of it or people can publicly identify you. Yes, I think it can be dangerous. How about do you think it's a little bit dangerous? I don't think that specifically is dangerous. I think it is dangerous in general. So, um yeah. I mean, all this shit goes down, but no, I don't think that's as bad on K Road. No. How about anywhere else in Auckland? Do you think that's you know what? I think Auckland's pretty accepting. So I mean, you might get a bit of shit if you're [00:17:00] doing it down, but it sort of everyone knows what goes on. It's quite metropolitan up here, so people see a lot of different things from different cultures. Um, so people are generally pretty open minded up here because a lot of stuff goes on. OK, thank you for the interview. Cheers.

IRN: 491
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_zach.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003934
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089228
TITLE: Zach - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Q12 (series); Rainbow Youth; abuse; coming out; drag; family; gay; homophobia; parents; performance; relationships; religion; school; youth
DATE: 15 March 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Zach talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. What's your name? I'm Zach. OK, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? I'm 18, gay from North Shore, and I go to a ET. OK, so you're going to be a very interesting interview today? Yes, apparently, yes. So can you tell us about a little bit about yourself? Well, my interests, um I love music, cooking, making clothes, singing and dancing. [00:00:30] Yes. So, um, here's the interesting part. Who are your, um what gender are your parents? They're both female. Lesbian? You got lesbian parents? So growing up, Has that been? Has it been slightly difficult for you? Um, well, my mom tried to cover it up, actually. Really? Yes, she did. Um, she didn't really. Well, I kind of found out when I found her in bed [00:01:00] with with, um, her girlfriend. So and I just thought Oh, yeah, they just hugging. But I was young, and so So when you, um So was it a lesbian couple when you were born, or did you actually had a mother father kind of thing? I've never met my father. Um, my I've had my mum. She's been a single parent with me since. Up until about [00:01:30] 66 years old, and then she went, um, she got a girlfriend, and they've been together since then. And I'm 18 now, so yeah, Got a while. Go wild. So, um, so you're 18? Yes. Um, what is your gender identity? I'm male, but sometimes I do drag. So then I'm female. Um, what culture do you identify with New Zealand [00:02:00] and your sexuality is obviously gay. Gay? Yeah. Yeah. So when did you realise? Um, I probably officially realised when I was 16, but before then, I was experimenting like I've had. It's an odd thing. I pose as my other self. Who's my drag? Self called Jesse. And through her, [00:02:30] I dated guys that out. I've never officially had a girlfriend. Never had a girlfriend. Never. So, um, how did you feel when you realised? Um, well, at first, I wasn't quite sure because I've never I wasn't really with anyone properly, and it sort of just happened. [00:03:00] And the weird thing was that my mom sort of guessed for me because it's like did she feel that since she's in a lesbian relationship, she's going to have a gay son? Well, she tried to bring me up this track because she likes females. So she wants me to like females, too. And, um, she's, um she's a Christian. So she tried to bring me up with a Christian background as well. So it's kind of unusual, but yeah. [00:03:30] And did you ever have to feel like, um, that you had to keep it a secret? Um, since I had lots of Christian friends and so did my mom. I felt I had to keep it a secret from them. Just from them or from everyone. Not everyone. So, um, you obviously came out, right? Yeah. So how did you How did you come out to them? Um, pretty much when I had a work [00:04:00] with the P the norm. Um, my mum found out I was gay by guessing, and so I went along with that, and I haven't really officially come out. But if people ask me, then I'll say, yes, I am. And on Facebook, it says I am so so there's never been actually like a non official like a um You sitting down with your mother saying Hey, I'm gay. Oh, recently? [00:04:30] Yeah, She's because she thinks I'm crazy. She keeps saying I'm confused whether you're gay or trans because I dress, um feminine like stockings and stuff. But I say I'm gay. I'm just like wearing different clothing. You just like to be. You just want to express yourself like a Madonna kind of Madonna Express your C. I was, like, born this way. It's productive. [00:05:00] Look it up. Um, So you've come out to your family? Um, how? How about to your friends? How did you come out to them? Um how did I come out to them? I think once I told them I had a boyfriend or something I can't really remember. And, um, they were just They were pretty good with it. They said, Oh, you have a boyfriend. So you're gay, and [00:05:30] I'm like, Yeah, and they're like, Oh, that's pretty cool, because they they've never really had proper gay friends before. And they enjoy having a gay friend. So, um, how did you feel after coming out? Um, more confident. And ever since then I've been making more friends and socialising more so drinking more drinking, I bet. Yeah. Yeah. So what was the general reaction that you, um that you [00:06:00] got him when you came out. Um, it was all pretty positive. Everyone's really friendly and positive about it, but sometimes you see randoms on the street, and they're not positive. So did you get abuse from the street? I got spat on once. Oh, yeah. Not there. Not really. The thing that you really want in a general day. No, Really? [00:06:30] Was it just from a random guy called Maori Dude? Was it on like Rose Queen Street or something? Queen Street. OK, that's delicious. Um, So how was it? What was it like? So did you come out when you're at high school? Yes. How was the school? What was the school like? Um, a lot of the people at school didn't really notice because, I don't [00:07:00] know, they're pretty much blind to it all, But they're just like, Oh, that's sick. Yeah. Yeah. So some people used to call me like a homo and stuff in the past and what we like. Um, yes, I am. Back then. I wouldn't I wasn't I was just experimenting, so I wasn't sure then. But now I'm like, Yeah, I am. I actually said that to someone, like, two years ago, when they yell out. They said Homo. And I'm like, Yeah, how did they react [00:07:30] after that? Oh, OK, they kind of negative. Um, usually those super popular guys that have sex with everyone. I think it's like when you when it comes to popular people or even just general teasing when they yell out Oh, you're a homer. You're a fag. You're gay. And you say yes, I am. They just Well, they don't actually expect you to say yes, you are you? Yeah. When you say yes, I am, they'll be like, Oh, shit, they don't have to come back to that. [00:08:00] Um, well, you like some cock where you could just say, Oh, shut up your carpet liquor. Have you actually done that before? Or, um, I say nasty things to people if they annoy me. And just in general. So, um, do you have do you or did you have support support? Definitely from my mom. She put me into counselling [00:08:30] as well because I had a lot going on in the past few years and, um, counselling helped and referred me to Rambo youth. So that's how I started going there. And I made quite a few friends from there. So, um, was this during when you were realising or coming out? Or now? It was when I was just before I turned 17. So about a year ago, Yeah, a year and [00:09:00] a bit. And, um, I was just starting to get myself out there more so I was a bit shy trying to discover yourself. I'm discovered now, so I am queer. I am here kind of thing. Yeah. So, um, from a young perspective, how do you feel in the gay community? Um, since I'm 18 now, I feel a bit more free. [00:09:30] Whereas before, I didn't really feel so free. Like, you can go to bars now and before you're a bit Yeah. Yeah, because I always liked the party scene because, I don't know, you get to meet new people. And did you ever feel that you couldn't do anything when you were younger? Pretty much just go to Rambo youth. That's what I thought I could do if you knew that there was more of a, um, more group [00:10:00] activities. Would you do that when it's not? Not necessarily, well, not involving drinking at all. Sexual or drugs or anything like that. But if you knew that there was more out there, as in, like, more groups, would you go? Yeah, I would. Would you feel more like, um, hey, there. There is actually more stuff. I'm not so constructed. Yeah, that would be, um, quite good. And meet, meet more people. So did your school have a, um, had a gay group? Nope. Why is that? [00:10:30] The school was like they tried to get Christian people to lead it. So gays at the school were like, No, you don't Pretty much. Yeah. I remember when I was at my school, they were like, um, I said I went to West Lake. What school did you went to college? Yeah, my school at West Lake. They were like, um, we do not allow groups that are, [00:11:00] um or or as an extra activity kind of thing. Um, So have you been in a relationship before? Yes. Yes, I've been in a few boys or girls. Boys never been with a girl. So you said that before. So what was that like? My first one was a bit awkward because it was long distance. So I went on a 10 hour bus ride to [00:11:30] Palmerston North and back. So, like, 20 hours or just one day? One day I stayed there five days, OK? Was that worth it? And I No. No. So has you being out affected your relationship? Um, not really. My mainly get positive things from people. Um, I used to get a lot more negative, so I suppose it's been transferred [00:12:00] to positive a bit. How about, um, when you're being having a lesbian mother has that affected your relationships? Um, not really. Because everyone thinks it's pretty cool. So, um, do you feel that you live a different life with having a two with actually having a lesbian mum? Yeah, compared to a normal life or straight life, or even just like a life [00:12:30] of two men, I think it's quite different. Um, that's where that's where I get my feminine side from because I've been brought up around women and, like, no man. So I don't know why I became gay. I just did. But, um, what did you say? So how do you meet other people? Um, through through groups or Internet or bars? N CD? [00:13:00] Yeah, Grinder? No, man. Facebook. Yeah, I remember you Yeah. Random people on the street. No. At least I burn your face. Hey, Nice meeting you. Yeah. No. Um, So what's your definition of virginity? Yeah, my definition of virginity is [00:13:30] pretty. It's a bit of physical and emotional because, like, if you have to have, like, some sort of feeling towards that person when they have intercourse with you, That's just how I feel. If you don't really have any feelings whatsoever for them, then but it's just pointless. So, going back to your part, the question before, um, have you experienced any abuse? Like more [00:14:00] abuse than just a spat and face? Um, yeah, I've had numerous times. I've had sexual abuse in town when some guy followed me into the bathroom and pretty much forced me on her. I've had sexual abuse in the past when I was younger, and that went on for, like, six years, [00:14:30] and I think that's about it. Do you feel that road is slightly dangerous for the, um, young gay youth in the community? It depends how you dress Depends on how you dress. So getting abused. Is it dangerous for very camp? People? Little gay. You very camp people Yes, definitely. [00:15:00] Because predators tend to go for the people that definitely look gay. Because I've had, like, um, an encounter on K Road as well Come to think of some Arabian guy Thought I was a hooker. Lovely. Yeah, And he came up to me and said, Do you want to get into my car? And I'm like, No, he's like, I'll pay you and I'm like, No. Oh, go, hump. So now yeah, that was It wasn't really pleasant. [00:15:30] Yeah, well, thank you for the interview. That's all right. Have a lovely day. You, too. Thank you.

IRN: 490
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_ben.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003933
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089227
TITLE: Ben - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Canada; Q12 (series); Rainbow Youth; coming out; domestic violence; family; gay; homophobia; performance; relationships; religion; television; youth
DATE: 15 March 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Ben talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: OK. Hello. What's your name? Hello, Ben. I'm Ben. Um how old are you? 18. Only young. Um, So can you tell us about yourself? I was originally born in Canada, so I moved to New Zealand when I was eight years old, and I've been here ever since, So yeah, I think this is my second international interview then. Oh, wow. So you're from Canada. So, [00:00:30] um, so what's the change for you? Like coming from Canada to New Zealand? Uh, definitely. The huge weather change, because at the moment over there, it's like, really cold. So it's like it gets a minus nearly minus 40 degrees, so yeah, but yeah, it's definitely a big change. Yeah. So, um, what are your general interest is you know, any interest? Um, I like acting. Uh, photography, modelling, [00:01:00] clothes, music, sports animals. Yeah, Squirrels. Right. Um where was I? I was lost myself. Oh, yes. Um, So what is your gender identity? Male, Male. And what is your Oh, well, obviously Canadian. Yes. Um what is your sexuality? Gay? Gay. Ok, so when [00:01:30] did you realise when I was 14? Young age. Um So how did you feel when you realised um Well, my dad's pretty much knew from when I was born, so yeah, just came out. Hey. Yeah, but, um, I've, like, in the past. I've, like, tried to cover it up, like being straight. So I've, [00:02:00] like, tried to have, like, fake girl friends because, um, I actually didn't come out to my mom to my mom, my stepdad until earlier this year. So that's when they found out, So yeah. Yeah, I'm still quite interested on how your dad thinks that you're gay when you were born, a rainbow coming out of the uterus. Yeah, sure. With glitter, sparkle, sparkle. [00:02:30] Um, so, um, did you had to keep it? Um, did you feel that you had to keep your sexuality a secret? Um, yes. I felt I definitely felt like I did because, um, I actually grew up in a Christian family home. So my parents have I've actually been brought up as a Christian, and so, uh, when I came out gay, So Yeah. So, um, [00:03:00] how do you feel being gay and in Auckland and not in your own home country? It feels very different, but yeah. So you're out now? Yes, I am. Yeah. out and flashing. Yes. So, um, how did you come out? Um well, my mom actually found out through Facebook, so it's always Facebook. [00:03:30] Yeah. So did you, Um, Did your mom was your mom? The only person that found out from Facebook or Yes. And then eventually my friends found out. So So did you have to have the a conversation? How did that go? Um, with my family, I wasn't too good. I actually got kicked out of home, so Yeah. So now I'm living with my dad. How does your dad take it? He takes it very well. He [00:04:00] fully supports me being gay. So which is really good? Yeah. So, um, what was your reaction from your dad when you first told him? He definitely knew. He knew it was going to happen, So I knew since the rainbow. Yeah, um, but it does. It still comes to, like, a really huge shock to the rest of my family because, um, like, I've they always sort of lived, like a straight [00:04:30] life all the way through. But I actually haven't since I was 14, so Yeah, so as for the reaction from your other family, did you when you were kicked out. Was it like a You guys sat around and you had a talk, and there was an argument or something like that, or Yeah, that's pretty much how it went. All these arguments these days. Um, So how did you feel? Um, at that point in time, I did find I did feel very [00:05:00] upset. Like, um, like I went back home, maybe three back to my parents, my mum's house, like, maybe four or five weeks ago to get, like, the rest of my stuff. And Mom was just, like, really, really upset and stuff like that. She's like, Why are you living this life and everything like that? So, yeah, she found it really hard. Did you feel that You had to explain to her that it is not my choice in a way or Yeah, I felt like that, but, um, I didn't actually say anything to her. [00:05:30] So So how did your friends felt about it? Um, they were actually very surprised about like that. They found out that I was gay, so they totally didn't expect it from me at all. So. But they did have suspicions, though, so what were their main reactions? Um, it's, uh they're just, like, very shocked in a way. So, [00:06:00] yeah, it was the whole monkey thing, like the whole shock. Speak no evil, see no evil, hear no evil. Um, So, um, how did you feel after all these reactions? What we know about your mother's how do you feel about your father's reaction? Um, I feel totally fine with my father's reaction, but yeah, I knew. He knew it was totally He [00:06:30] knew it was coming, so he knew he was. What is he expecting from me? So how about, um, your friends? Friends? Yeah. Totally different. So, um, you're working or at study, or I have already finished university. So, um, when you were at uni, did you feel that you had to come out to them? No. Did they knew already? No. Nobody knew. Nobody knew. So you So you were in the closet at uni? [00:07:00] Yeah. And why is that? I just didn't, like, want all people because I thought they would be, like, quite like homophobic, So, yeah, I just don't want them to know anything, so Yeah. So, um, how did you feel about, um, about being closet at uni. Um, I thought it was fine at uni, so yeah, lived a normal life. Pretty dated. Who you wanted [00:07:30] A dated rainbow. Um, well, did you have any support? Um, at that time, No, I didn't have any support at all. So yeah, apart from your father? Yeah. Apart from my father. So, um, ramming support. Did you get any support when you realise or when you're coming out? No. No. How about any organisations like Rambo youth or curious or Rainbow Youth? Not until this [00:08:00] year. So is this your first year with rain? You? Yes. How are you feeling with Rambo youth? I'm actually very happy that Rainbow Youth is supporting me through being gay, which is really good. So, yeah. Do you go to the groups? No. Straight out. No. Um, So, have you been in a relationship before? Yes, I have, like, male relationship females relationship now. [00:08:30] Also, females relationship or just males only male. Um, So tell me about your male relationships. Have that any. Are they good relationships? Bad relationships? Pretty much bad. Um, they they've actually been, like, really tough, like they've all pretty much cheated on me. So Yeah, which is really [00:09:00] tough, but yeah, you get that? So, um, these were did you were you open about your relationships with your family? Parents, Friends? Um, I have been with my father like recently, but yeah, nobody else. No, not with friends. No. No. Facebook? No. Um, do you feel that? Is it because it's a because [00:09:30] your family being negative about it? Yeah. Yeah. OK, um, has you coming out or has your coming out affected your relationship? Um, it definitely has with my mom and my older sister, but yeah. So So you have siblings? Yes, I do. I have an older sister and a younger sister and a younger brother. [00:10:00] So has there been a bit, um what were their reactions, or were they a bit my older sister there? Her reaction was, like, really bad to it. Um, yeah, she got ready. She's just, like, not happy with me being gay at all, So Yeah, but my younger sister doesn't know anything about it. She's only 17, So yeah, and younger brother told me nothing [00:10:30] about it either. So little he's eight. So a time when I realised So what's your definition and virginity um I have no idea. I don't have a definition. So you don't have a definition. What do you think is one or anything? Um, [00:11:00] yeah, I really don't know. Do you think it's a physical thing or just a mental thing? Um, is it a religious thing? I think it can be like a mental and like, an emotional thing. Like, it probably depends. Like at that stage, Like what you're going through and like, how you're feeling about other people and stuff like that. So, yeah. Do you feel that it's mainly something to do with [00:11:30] sexual things with a loved one or anything? Yeah, Yeah. Or anything? Yeah. Anything? Yeah. Which one? Um, maybe with a loved one. Or maybe for, like, feelings that you have towards other people. That could be a loved one. So, yeah, a loved one being more appropriate. But generally, anything using both of the answers. So, have you experienced any abusive behaviour [00:12:00] or, um, any abuse because of your sexuality or gender identity? Um, I have with my older sister, um, like before I was currently living there before I where I am staying now with my dad. Um, I was currently living at her house with her husband. And, um, like at that time, I was in a relationship. Um, I bought it, brought my boyfriend over to [00:12:30] their house, and apparently, I wasn't allowed, so it was kind of like a huge risk for me. And, um, the shit hit the fan kind of thing. Yes, it did. She totally hit the roof, and then her husband totally went off at me. And then, um, I was outside outside the time and he like, pretty much like charges at me. And, like, I fall over onto the concrete and everything and then I, like, try like I, like, try [00:13:00] to ring the police. But then I feel like I shouldn't, so yeah. Yeah. So have you ever spoken to anyone about that or Yeah, I have. Yeah. Um, so going back to General you. So So you're interested in stuff like acting and stuff like that, right? So is that like a theatre? Shortland Street kind of thing? Soap opera. Oh, my God. Um, TV show kind of thing. [00:13:30] Yes. Um, I'm currently acting on TV shows at the moment. Um, the mighty Johnsons. Has anyone heard of the mighty Johnsons before. Yeah, OK, I'm just I'm just in the closet about this. I'm a closet. I'm a closet TV person. Yeah, And also Power Rangers Power range. You've been in power like, [00:14:00] um, there's a New Zealand version, isn't there? Yeah. So, um, which one are you? Can you give any details to us about that? I could, uh it's like something that I'm not allowed to say because it's, like part of the contract. So Yeah, that's right. Um, you're not allowed to reveal future storylines. Yeah. Has it been on TV yet? No, [00:14:30] it hasn't been on TV yet. It is on TV. OK, so can you tell us about your Can you tell us about your character that's already been on TV so far? Wow. Um, I'm actually a Power Ranger. So you're one of the proper Power Rangers. Yeah. So which one? I'm the Red Power Ranger, The red one. So in a way, it's It's kind of cool being a power ranger because he's so colourful. Yes, it is really cool. Is that [00:15:00] one of the main reasons why you wanted to do it? Not really. Probably because it's just like getting on TV. So, um but yeah. Just wanted a job. Sort of. But well, I'm with the agency, so they got me the job, so it was real cool. So you're very experienced with your acting career? Yeah, I've had a lot of experience. OK, well, thank you for the interview. Thank you. Thank you.

IRN: 489
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_name_withheld_5.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003932
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089226
TITLE: [name withheld 5] - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Australia; Q12 (series); Rainbow Youth; abuse; coming out; family; gay; performance; theatre; youth
DATE: 15 March 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast [name withheld] talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello. How are you today? I'm good. OK? Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? I'm 20 I'm gay. Living in Auckland, wanting to be an actor. I want to be an actor. I like Shortland, Street actor or movie actor. Like theatre, film and television, if I can Just all of it. So you really are 20? Yes. I'm definitely 20. Because even by a microphone, you actually sound like a 13 year old. I know it sucks. Do you get stopped a lot? Yes, I do. [00:00:30] I'm kind of like everyone just thinks I'm a school kid and it's really annoying little school kid. OK, so it's 20. Um, what gender do you identify with male and what? Sexuality? Gay? And what's culture? Um, I'm like Australian, Irish Irish. A little bit kiwi or a little bit? A little bit. Ok, um how old were you when you realised I was 16? [00:01:00] 16? So, um, how did you feel when you realised I was terrified? It was this whole new experience with you. I was I mean, like I know I knew a lot of gay couples at the time that were like friends with my family, but just the idea of me coming out as gay was really terrifying. Just the whole coming out thing and everybody what they thought of me and stuff like that just really terrified me. So I didn't actually come out [00:01:30] then. But I did realise then did you have any experiences with other guys? Then? I knew that I liked guys very much. I had never been with anyone at that point. But I always knew that I liked guys. So when you realised that you had any fantasies or OK, you don't have to go into detail. No. So, um, when you came to realise that you had, did you feel that you had to keep it a secret for for I kept it a secret until I was, like, [00:02:00] 19. So that was pretty recent. Quite recent. Have you lived in Auckland all your life? I've lived in the country like just south of So I've I've been living in Auckland for, like 2. 5 months. So so was it. Did you feel it was a little bit different from living from those two places? Definitely. Like I feel here you can be a bit more openly gay, more openly gay. OK, um, so you [00:02:30] have come out of the closet now? Yes. To everyone. To everybody. How did you come out of the closet? Facebook. The general area, like Hey, everyone, I'm gay. Then you just, like, got into the closet, then just came out and say, Hey, I'm gay. I pretty much did it all at once. Did Facebook, my family, my friends, everyone, everyone. So did you tell me about in person? Um, no. Oh, except my mom and my dad [00:03:00] works overseas, so I didn't Didn't get to tell him no person through Facebook or email. Yeah, pretty much. So. How did you come out to your mom? I wrote a letter to her in a book, and it was at, like, midnight. I wrote a letter, a five page letter just explaining to her. And then I woke her up. She was really annoyed, and I got her to read it. She was still really annoyed because she wasn't really awake, but yeah, that's how it happens. And I was like [00:03:30] I was, like, kind of upset, and it was really awkward, but it happened. And now it's over And how did she feel about it? She was really kind of not sure about all of it for, like, three months. But now she's finally coming to terms with the law, which is really cool. It's just like my mother. In a way, she took, like, three months to just like this is so new. This is a new bed. Wait. Wait a minute. He he's wearing colourful [00:04:00] clothes. This isn't different. So, um, what was the general reaction from people? Did you get? I got a really positive reaction and I'm not surprised Reaction as well. A load of people being like I totally knew. And I even had one friend tell me that I was bad at being in the closet. I was like, OK, did you ever have, like, any fake girlfriends just to make people think I sort of, like, tried to make it seem that I like girls for [00:04:30] a while there, but I couldn't even force it. It was just kind of like it's not gonna work. Did did the girls know? Or I think some of them Yeah. Did you actually try to do something like try date a girl before you came out or I did date a girl for, like, five years, so wow. Yeah, that lasted a very long time. How old were you? I was, like, 15, 14, 14 when I met her. And [00:05:00] she was actually the first person I came out to while we were still in a relationship. And she was actually OK, like she's become a really good friend of mine. Your little fag hag. I'm a little fag, but yeah. Yeah. So what? So did you get upset from the whole thing? Her meal? Well, both of you. She I think she had guessed previously before, and I [00:05:30] was obviously very nervous and anxious about the whole thing. And it was really, really rocky reaction for, like, five months. And then it was OK. And then we broke up. Not because of that. Well, partly because of that, obviously, but it was just a very complicated relationship. A straight girl going out with a gay boy. Actually, she's a lesbian. So that's why that's what I mean by complicated. So she was She was [00:06:00] actually figuring that out while dating me. So we both sort of figured each other out of dating each other, So it actually worked out pretty well. Oh, that's a new way of looking at it. I'm pretty optimistic. Most of the time. This could be a book how gay boys and lesbians turned out to be gay and strict lesbians. A straight relationship goes wrong. Oh, my God, That's perfect. [00:06:30] Yeah. So, um, how did you feel about the whole coming out thing? I felt pretty good about it, because I'm just kind of the person who's like, OK, I'm going to do this, and I just do it. It was just another thing I had to do. So I felt good, and it turned out good. So I didn't get any negative reactions whatsoever apart. Well, not negative, but that little bit of like a I just told my mother kind of thing. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Like, I sort of felt bad about it for my mom. [00:07:00] But I couldn't let myself feel bad about that, because it's me. So did you felt during that three months that your mother was coming to terms with it? Did you felt that a little bit stress? Kind of. Well, not stress, but slight tension kind of thing. Yeah, definitely that awkward tension where you feel like there's something to talk about, but they won't talk about it. Did you ever had that? Um, mother son? Kind of, um, conversation? [00:07:30] No. No, she's just like she still avoids talking about it, but she's much more acceptant. Yeah. Um, so she's accepted more acceptive. Now, how about your father? My dad's all cool about it. He was just like, OK, that's good. Your boat, That's yeah. My dad is pretty chill about everything. So so are you the only, um, brother? [00:08:00] And do you have any siblings or only one? It's just me. The one and only. It's just me. So, um, how about as in, um, cousins or anything like that? They don't actually know yet. They don't know yet because they're like, most of them are in Australia, so it's kind of hard to tell them. I think they'll be fine with it anyway. So no. Won't that wait for a good conversation? When you first see them again? I'm gay or that conversation. So [00:08:30] do you have a girlfriend? No. I won't ever have a girlfriend. Do you have a boyfriend? Maybe. Oh, my God. We have a gay in the family. I think we we actually do have, Like, I think there's a lesbian. There's probably a getting in there somewhere. They're pretty queer, friendly in our family. Thankfully. So, um, did you have any support when you come to realising or, um, coming [00:09:00] out? Definitely. All my friends were the most supportive. My mom was just too busy dealing with it, but otherwise it was good to just have close friends helping me. So how about for youth organisations? I found out about rainbow use only a few months ago, So And I gave that courage to ring the phone. I spoke to Tommy, spoke to Tom. Yeah. So what was that like? It was good. I'm kind of scared of phones, so that was the biggest problem. [00:09:30] You have a phobia phones, not a phobia. I just It just makes me really anxious when I'm talking on the phone. Partly because I hate my voice because I sound a little bit like a 13 year old. Yeah, I have a vibrating phone. Um, have you been in a relationship before with with guys? Yes. I'm like, currently in a relationship with Monty who is in South Carolina who is [00:10:00] asexuals aromantic polyamorous. He's a He's like a complicated person. It's rather hard to deal with most of the time, just not having that physical closeness with someone. So I've been kind of thinking about whether or not it's kind of good for me. But he's Polly. I actually have the option of just dating someone else at the same time. Yeah, [00:10:30] yeah, yeah. So there's Monty and he's my official first. But there were other guys, but I didn't Really It wasn't official. Yeah. OK, um, has you coming out affected your relationship? No. No. OK. Um, obviously, it affected your relationship with your past girlfriend. Obviously, she was It was really difficult for a while, and then we broke [00:11:00] up because of that. And because just it was a mess. But now we're good friends. Um how do you meet other guys? Just coming to rainbow use advertisement for rainbow. You come to rainbow for on K Road? Um, yeah. I don't know. I don't really do it on purpose. I just kind of do stuff. And if I meet someone, it's cool. Um, do you go like on any dating [00:11:30] sites like into D man grinder kind of thing? No, but I have heard of them. My flatmate is on grinder, and he tells me about it. I'm like, I don't want to go on there. Kirsten, Come on. Come on. You know you want to. Um So do you also meet guys from Facebook as well? Yeah, I have before. I'm kind of like, too shy to say anything. OK, Um so what's your What's [00:12:00] OK? This question is difficult for a lot of people because they have their own version, and sometimes they get get a bit awkward explaining it. Um, what's your version of the definition of virginity? Um, that's a hard question. I think virginity is not so much. Maybe not so much a physical thing, but like mentally, you feel like it's been taken or just [00:12:30] That's a really strange question, really hard to answer. Actually, it's definitely a mental thing. And obviously, if something's happened to that person that wasn't like, um, consensual, I don't know if it would count to them or not. So, um, are you a virgin? Yes, I am. OK. Um so have you ever experienced [00:13:00] any abuse or abusive behaviour because your sexuality or gender. I do. Yes, I have unfortunately, um, both verbally, mentally, sexually and physically. Ok, so are there any other abusive behaviours that have happened? Ok, so, um so do you live in the general area? In the city? Yeah, I live just over there, [00:13:30] literally, just over there. But, like, down the road on road or something like that. Close enough. Close enough. It's only just over there. A 10 minute walking. Probably like half an hour, actually. So, um, what are your interests? Personally? Um, I skate long boarding. I want to do acting. I write, play video games. I enjoy [00:14:00] a lot of art. Um, do you go to the arch Gallery down on Queen Street or not Queen Street, but near 80? No, um, I play the bass guitar. I love animals. Especially amphibians. Um, that's pretty much it. That's pretty much it. OK, well, thank you for the interview. Thank you.

IRN: 579
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/cos_paul_diamond_researching.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003931
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089225
TITLE: Paul Diamond - Creating Our Stories
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Paul Diamond
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1920s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Charles Mackay; Green International; Paul Diamond; Walter D'Arcy Cresswell; Wellington; Whanganui; archives; courts; crime; documentary; health; homintern; homophobia; law; legacy; library; media; oral history; radio; research; writing
DATE: 12 March 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: At the moment, I'm working as a curator at the at the Turnbull Library. Um, and before that, I've worked as, uh, originally trained as an accountant, um, and was an investigative accountant involved in in forensic fraud accounting, which was actually good, um, training for what I've done later. Because I then moved into journalism and then through that, moved into doing, um, radio radio work, which let me do longer form interviews. [00:00:30] So I started working in oral history, Um, and an actual history and and biography and writing. Um, in terms of queer queer projects, I've done some interviews for the Vietnam War Oral History Project, which I used to run for the Ministry for Culture and Heritage with a couple of Vietnam veterans who who were who are gay. And, um, that was one of the the criteria for why I think we were keen to include them in the collection and why I [00:01:00] was asked to do the interviews because I think by the time I did those interviews, I wasn't running the project, but I was I became one of the interviewers. So both those interviews are, um, are part of the Turnbull Collection um, deposited by the Ministry for Culture and Heritage. And they're both, um, unrestricted unrestricted interviews. Um, I did a paper for the stout centre, um, stout research centre in, um, in at Victoria University. That's a centre for this, uh, New Zealand Studies. [00:01:30] And that was to do with a thing called the Green International, which was a, um, sort of an alleged grouping of, um, homosexual people in the forties and fifties in New Zealand. And the allegation was that they controlled arts funding and got, um, arts funding at the expense of people who weren't, um, linked in with this group. So green apparently came from Oscar Wilde and the green carnation that he wore. And the international was, um, that modelled on, linked [00:02:00] to the idea of the, um, the Communist International. There is also a term called the, which is a sort of modified version of the, um and that was used in America and and in other countries to do with the idea that a similar idea of of the the so they call it, I think it later got called the Gay Mafia. So I did a paper about that for the man alone Conference, which was last year. So that's 2010 held, um, by the stout centre at Victoria University. Um, but the bigger [00:02:30] piece of work that I've been involved with is a is a book project to do with, um, a shooting that happened. But, uh, when the mayor of Charles Mackay or Mackay spelled Mackay M AC KAY but apparently pronounced Mackay in May 1920 shot Darcy Walter Darcy Creswell, who'd been blackmailing the mayor because the mayor was a homosexual. Now that began. And about 2005, I think when I was working at Radio New Zealand [00:03:00] now possibly earlier, um, and Prue Labine, a colleague, mentioned the story. She'd come across it in Michael King's history of New Zealand. I'd come across it in a book by Peter Wells and Rex Pilgrim, um called best Mates, which was an anthology of gay writing. But it had a very good essay at the front, which actually had quite a bit of gay history in it. And Peter had talked about this this story and really one of the things I've been looking at is the way the story has been, Um uh mentioned [00:03:30] it. It sort of pop. It's been suppressed, but it sort of pops up in all sorts of other settings as well. I, Prue and I decided to try and do a radio programme which we got commissioned. But we didn't finish it because we ran into some problems with you know who who who we talk to as part of the programme, how we'd actually do it. And then I actually left Radio New Zealand and did other things. But But then I've because I've been working as a historian. Um, my boss, who's the chief historian at the time at the Ministry for [00:04:00] Culture and Heritage, Bronwyn Daley said to me, Well, why don't you just think about, um in your spare time, pursuing this and seeing where it leads? And so I'm still thinking of doing a, um, a book about it, but it's got, um, a number of sort of parts to the research, and it hasn't been completely clear. Um, what sort of book it is, but but the research has been quite interesting, and hopefully there might be some things, um, in that that might help for this. You mentioned suppression, and I'm wondering, Have you encountered [00:04:30] a lot of, uh, having to deal with, uh or or finding hidden histories in terms of, um, let's say, the the Charles Mickey situation. I mean, we are talking about, um, hidden histories because but, um, the context changes over time, and that's one of the things that you've got to be aware of. And I guess that's the thing that sort of the more you learn about history, the more the more it teaches you. But at a basic level, you know, I'm I'm part [00:05:00] of what I'm trying to work out with this wui story was that after the mayor shot Darcy Creswell at some stage after that, the someone in the town chiselled san the name and the title of the Mayor of the Stone for the Sergeant gallery, which he'd built now and then that then got put back in the 19 eighties and in the archives in the Whanganui District Council. There is a letter, a memo from the the chief executive or the town [00:05:30] clerk, now the chief executive of the Council to the gallery director, saying, Um, please, um can this be put back and and explaining you know that attitudes have changed, but there should be no publicity for this now. I was led to that because the gallery director at that time said to me, he remembered there being a wreath lane. Uh, a a pink triangle wreath was laid by the gay group, the Wui Gay Rights Action Group. I think it was called, but he wasn't exactly sure when and then that [00:06:00] it was after that that the the name got put back on the wreath. So Prue and I went to Wanganui and we did some research and we found this memo, but I decided I'd try and find the, um, members of that gay group, which has been an interesting process. And, um, you know, one of the founders had moved to France but was actually in the process of moving back to Wanganui. And it's been surprisingly hard to pin down exactly when this thing happened and and and people who were in the group remember that there was, um, media coverage. [00:06:30] And there were, you know, there was even a radio interview and things, but I can't pin it down. Um, and in they have a a really good card index of, um topics. And and so it's often by a person's name. So you know when people, um, die when people are married. A note of that in the paper is put in this card index, and I found it very helpful for searching and it's got a bunch of topics, but there's nothing like this in it. And so, you know, I'm still trying to find if there was any media coverage [00:07:00] and Wanganui had two papers. It probably was in the late 19 seventies. But the other day when I was in Wui, it really brought it home to me that, you know, it's just not not considered important, not considered, um, seemly OK to be a topic for research. And I just thought, It's so much harder when you're researching these sorts of things because if it was, you know, a school or a park or you know something that and I'm not getting at the librarians, it's just the way I guess I. I sort [00:07:30] of am actually, because it's it's I've got no other way of finding this than just trawling through the papers because these ones haven't been digitised and and I've had a go at it once before, but I'm just gonna have a I will have to have another bash at it, but it does bring it home to you. How that it's it is harder. You you're you're really sort of up against it with us, for for whatever reason it is. It is hidden, but there are There are ways around it, and it is becoming easier all the time. Um, with digitization and other things that are going on with technology. Can you take me step [00:08:00] by step through what your research process is in terms of, You know, um, how you find sources what kind of sources you're looking for, how you start uncovering material. Yeah, I think I'm pretty good at finding stuff. I'm not so good at, um, at, um um, not getting lost in it and and and and organising it, um, so I think it is important. It's important to sort of have a A research plan. I think sometimes what keeps your research on track is is your particular [00:08:30] output. I think at a basic level, if you don't have a things like word limits and deadlines, you're gonna struggle. So those might come from this being something that you're doing for journalism. You might just be researching because you want to write something for the paper or a documentary or something, or you might be doing this as part of an academic thesis and that gives you a deadline, or you might be doing this as part of a book. Now the problem I've I've struck is that I don't necessarily have a an agreement. I don't have an agreement with a publisher, and, um, and [00:09:00] other books I've done that's what's really kept me on track is sort of, you know, where's that manuscript? You know, we need this by the state. We need this many words, and that means you just cut your cloth to fit the time you've got this story. It's not completely clear to me what the story is is about. I mean, I've got a better sense of it now, Um, and it is. I have a feeling with this one that it's it's still emerging. And there have been some strange, um, coincidences, which is perhaps another part of the research, um, [00:09:30] story in a way that just to be aware of, um, unexpected coincidental things that can sometimes emerge as part of this, which is not something you can you can plan for, but at a basic level. What you're doing when you do this sort of thing, was you you probably I think you start with what they call the secondary sources. So if you're interested in something like this story, you would want to start by looking at where is it referred to in other books. So, um, Prue had [00:10:00] heard about it in the Michael King, um, history of New Zealand. There was also a reference in the Michael King's biography of Frank Sarge, and I'd seen it in the, um, mates and lovers best mates. Sorry. Introduction. Um, so I think that's always wise to do, because what that can show is that someone's actually done it all. You know, there may actually be not, um, any. You know, you may decide at that point that actually, it's not really worth doing spending your time, um, taking it any further. Then [00:10:30] once you've done that, then you can start to think about original research, which is really exciting, because that's where you're actually getting into, um, what they call primary primary records. And so for this case, I think what Prue and I did we went to Wanganui and which seemed obvious because the shooting had happened in Wanganui. And we looked at the, um, council archives and we looked at the museum archives, and we we sort of looked at people to talk to. Now, this happened in 1920. Um, at that stage, the mayor did still have a daughter who was [00:11:00] alive, and she Prue had two conversations with her, and she was very, um, unhappy about us working on this project. So that was a That was a problem for us. Um, not just that we didn't have a I mean, that was really the only person we knew of who might have, um, had firsthand knowledge of the story. Everyone else, it was all here say they were quite a lot younger. They were removed from the story. They only knew what they'd read. Or perhaps what they'd been told, or what someone had told them. You know, it was sort of very 2nd 3rd hand, but also [00:11:30] just, you know, in terms of, um, ethical practise it, it was, um I think we both. Um, I think it was a factor in why we both delayed it and didn't sort of, you know, push push through. What we Because if family members are unhappy about what you're doing, it it it it makes you pause and think, Think about what you're doing. There was a certain amount of material in Wanganui. Um, but then we also looked in the archives and unfortunately, um, for us, Wanganui archives come [00:12:00] to Wellington and and so we were able, um, to find quite a lot of material in Wellington. So, for example, the trial file for the original, um, shooting. So when Charles Mackay was tried for attempted murder, that is in the archives in Wellington. That's not, um I don't think that I might No, I had to. We had to apply for permission for from the high court in At that Stage For that and and things about permissions, um especially [00:12:30] in archives, are changing all the time to do with, um, law changes and and the status of records. So, um, and things are so often have restrictions for certain periods of time. We found Charles Mackay's bankruptcy file. We found his divorce file Because when he went to court, uh, when he went to prison, his wife, um, filed for divorce and then by accident, really? We found his prison file, and that was an interesting one because we were just This is a strange thing that probably [00:13:00] would never happen again. But the person on the desk at archives recognised the name and said, Oh, I think, um, uh, we've got, um this person's on the card index that we have of prison files. And sure enough, it was. And so, um, I don't think all prison files were kept, but but for some cases, and I mean, this perhaps was quite a high profile case, Um, involving a very high profile person, the mayor of a town, Um, that was kept. And so we had to apply for permission from the [00:13:30] fact the Minister of Corrections to look at that. And that was an amazing thing to find because they had a photo photos of the prison photo. It had a whole lot of censored letters and amazing um, resource. And not many people had actually found that, um and and to this day, that is not actually on the database, Um, at archives under his name. The way archives works is that not everything is described to that level. So we were still very lucky to actually come across that, um [00:14:00] And then obviously, newspapers are quite important. So, you know, finding what was, um what was, um, recorded there? Those that's really the process. I think you go through as you sort of you move from the secondary sources, which is, um, and then then into the, um, primary. What I've sort of as I've gone to this one of the areas I've had to look at is more of the secondary stuff to get an understanding of the context around, um, the individual sort of story that I'm coming across. The other thing that I've mentioned [00:14:30] is, um, Gene and I know Chris Brickle, who is again someone I I've consulted with us. I mean, one thing to do is to, you know, get in touch with people who are experts in this area who are good at queer research and also, you know, have credibility as queer scholars or scholars of queer staff. And Chris Brickle is one of those and, um so I've talked a lot to him about it, and he's been really good at UM, suggesting lines of inquiry. But he's also a genealogist, and genealogists [00:15:00] are are really helpful. Various research projects I've done, Um, it's always worth talking to them and learning about how they go about researching, because genealogy is really about hunting down tracking individuals. Um, I think that can be the problem with it. Sometimes. Is that it? It sometimes is the individual not in in a broader context other than as a in a family tree. But it's quite good sometimes to just find in various, um, families that you're researching the person who's doing [00:15:30] the family tree. This one. I've found people in all the families of people associated with it, just about who've been doing family trees and they actually still sending me stuff. Um, this one is a you know, with queer stuff. It's tricky. I mean, you've got to, um, suss out with her, um, what people's attitudes are to, you know, if this elements in their story some, you know, I have struck it where people, um, I found descendants of, um, one of of the siblings of Charles [00:16:00] Mackay and and um, you know, one was well, would talk to me but wasn't very comfortable about this whole thing. And the other one was was fine about talking about it. So you just have to tread carefully and and respect people's wishes. And, you know, behave as if it was your family, really and be. And I think as long as you're respectful and show people that you're taking it seriously, um, and being professional and ethical about it, then that's, um you've probably got a pretty good chance. And the thing that's sort of in our favour, I suppose, [00:16:30] is that this is getting progressively easier, I guess, and and the further away you move from something that might have been scandalous in its day. Um, it's it's easy. It gets easier to talk about it. Helen Shaw is a woman who was doing um, who knew Darcy Cresswell and and really respected him as a writer because he became a He was a poet and a writer. She was doing a collection of his letters, and she wrote to the people of she wrote [00:17:00] to the library, and she wrote to the council, and the town clerk wrote back to her and said, You know, because it's in her time. You see, she was doing this in the sixties. She didn't even know what date the shooting had happened. It's pre Internet. It was a heck of a lot harder to just find things. I mean, and there was no, um, there was nothing like the Dictionary of New Zealand biography, which actually just to jump out and talk about that. That was quite an important thing was that the Dictionary of New Zealand biography had decided to [00:17:30] include Darcy Cresswell and Charles Mackay as biographical subjects now, so you can't underestimate the importance of, um, projects like that. And again, that probably says something about our time that we I think certainly Charles Mackay was included because he was an important um, it contributed to the understanding of the history of sexuality and how things have changed for homosexual men over time. So William Broughton, who was in the English he's an English professor [00:18:00] from Massey, was commissioned to do those two, essays. He had done a thesis on um, New Zealand writers that included Creswell, so he was pretty familiar with Crewe's work, and I think it'd come across the story as part of that. But then he researched Charles Mackay's Um, life. There are files on those biographies at the Ministry for Culture and Heritage, which they will let researchers consult. And again, that's really useful because they do a lot of, um, genealogical research, archival research and fact checking. [00:18:30] Um, so again, it can stop you having to go down the same road again. Um, because, you know, also again, it's getting easier and easier to get things like birth certificates and stuff. But back then it was quite expensive, and so they'd done all that. You know, they've got Charles Mackay actually died in Germany, and they actually went to a lot of trouble and expense to find his death certificate in Germany, which back then was quite difficult to get. So, um, that's that's worth knowing about. And that was yeah. I mean, that's why the secondary source check [00:19:00] is quite important, because if you you could sort of just hear often and, you know, look at the newspapers or whatever, but to to know and it's actually been a big thing is is like thinking Well, what could I say? Actually, about the story that's different to what William Broughton said in that that thing, um, that see, that wouldn't have happened, um, in an earlier period. But there, Helen, Helen, um Shaw wanted to find out when this thing was, and they sort of told her when it was and, you know, these people said, Oh, I can remember that from when I was a small child. But he said in the in this letter [00:19:30] in the late sixties, he said, since the letter was an unsavoury one, and since there are still members of Mr Mackay's family living in, we suggest you either tone it down or leave it out all together. So you know, that sort of illustrates for me, but and even I, I was curious, too, after the reaction we got from Charles Mackay's daughter of You know, how are we gonna go? And how would people in um, feel about talking about this? A couple of questions jump out to me, and one of them is [00:20:00] when you are looking at secondary sources initially, how do you know when things aren't there? I mean, how how do you know? Is there something that's going off in your head saying, Oh, this doesn't add up. Or what are the things for you? Yeah, that's a that is That is a hard thing. And I know I can remember really Early on, One of the things I said to Prue was that I didn't want to put a gay label on this man. Um, you know, I was really [00:20:30] wary of, um I mean, this was a man who had been He was married. He had three. He'd actually had four Children, but three were alive then. Three daughters. Um, he, you know, he wouldn't have Necessarily. Even then, I was sort of thinking, Well, he wouldn't have necessarily identified as gay, and and we sort of thought, Oh, perhaps he'd be, you know, as we would have now thought of as bisexual a. Another part of the story is that in the court case for the attempted murder, he pleaded guilty. And then when [00:21:00] it came to sentencing to try and reduce the sentence, his lawyers put produced evidence that he'd been treated for his homosexuality in 1914. So six years earlier. And there was a statement from a GP and a specialist who was called a meta physician, and that's been one of the big lines of inquiry is to try and work out. What would the treatment have been? And and you know what even was a meta physician. Um, And but really, where I've come to now, all these years later is that actually, the homosexuality [00:21:30] is the point of the whole story because, um, and papers passed as a great resource for researchers. And that's a database of, um, newspapers put up by the National Library. Now it's not all New Zealand newspapers, but it's a good selection of them. And it's, um, tech searchable. So when you put in Homosexual into that, the only articles you find before the story of 1920 are stories to do with Oscar Wilde, which was in the 18 nineties, [00:22:00] and another case to do with a scandal in the German Kaiser's army called the Erber Eber affair. And that was sort of 19 06 19 07. Now, when you start to look at the scholarship around those, those two things were regarded as labelling events and when the concept of the homosexual arrived in Germany and Britain, and that's when I suddenly thought maybe this is our labelling event. Um, because Chris Chris Brickle alerted me to early on very early on. He said to me, that's a really [00:22:30] early use of that word. He said it wasn't really used commonly in New Zealand until the twenties, late twenties. And so in 1920 you've got this word used and because it was used by Charles Mackay through his lawyers and his doctors, Um, I've realised that I've sort of come all the way around to thinking, actually the homosexual angle and this is the point. And that's why you know, the way I'm thinking about it now is you know, New Zealand's first homosexual in quote marks. Um, [00:23:00] just remind me what your question was again about the, um there was something else. When you're looking at secondary sources, what do you need to be aware of missing? Um, yeah, that is a really good question, because I mean, I think I don't know whether the medical history stuff is a good example. I mean that I think I've worked out what the treatment was. I think it was to do with hypnotism, but it's taken quite a circuitous route to find that, um because I'm sort of I can I just can research endlessly. [00:23:30] You know, um, you know, I've I've read Memoirs of the German ambassador's wife. Um, even before Charles Mackay was in Berlin, you know, just to get a bit of a feel for he's sometimes working out what's what's actually relevant. Um, you just need to be I think you need to look at the sources. Um, you know, always look at when they were, um, done. I mean, and so it can be really valuable to look at secondary stuff from the time. So I tracked down [00:24:00] a a talk that the head of the prison service gave, um, actually, at the time Charles Mackay was in prison. And because this man Matthews pops up all the time in Charles Mackay's file and so I don't know how I I must have been trying to find stuff about the New Zealand prison system and and there was this big talk that this guy had given and it got published, and it's really helpful. And it's got photos and things. Um, there was a if you're talking about queer stuff, um, [00:24:30] like there was an inquiry into mental defectives and sexual perverts. Um, in the 19 twenties and that's been looked at quite closely for what it says about eugenics and the and things. But homosexuals got got lumped in, um, and amongst the and in that group in that grouping And what what I've realised is that the prison system was categorised was based on a system of categorising offenders [00:25:00] and that, um and, um, homosexual men and and homosexual covered a broader range of things than what we think it does now. So, again, this is where the research, um, you it it sort of changes the way you see things. But it is important to start to look at that. That research, because what I've realised is that I mean things like, um, child sex offenders. Um, Peter [00:25:30] and things were all grouped as regarded as homosexuals. And, um, and even, you know, when people talk about homosexuality being illegal, it wasn't just sodomy or buggery that was grouped under that. Or apparently, you know, other other things, like mutual masturbation stuff would be, could be sort of grouped under that. So you have to be very careful when you're interpreting. Um sources. But there was this inquiry and And what it made me realise is that [00:26:00] one of the prisons that Charles Mackay got sent to, he was transferred to five prisons. He was transferred seven times, which is pretty amazing in itself. Um, for, uh, that he was only in prison for six years. But of course, the thing you have to be careful about is that I've only ever I've looked at two prison files, but I've really only looked at one prison file. So I think this Prue and I had no idea when we looked at this, How unusual was this? I think it probably was quite an unusual file, but But you've got You've got [00:26:30] to remember that, you know that you might. So you're always trying to establish the context. Anyway, One of the prisons that he was in was New Plymouth. Now, at that time, New Plymouth was set aside for sex, homosexual sex offenders and I. And then it's also at that time that the inquiry into mental defectives and sex offenders is has actually had some meetings at New Plymouth Prison when he was there, and Charles Matthews, the head of the prisons was very involved in this inquiry. So [00:27:00] I guess I'm saying this to sort of there was, You know, I now think that context is incredibly important. And and Mackay didn't want to be in this prison in New Plymouth. His family actually lived very. He had a sister, two sisters who lived in New Plymouth. So and one of them just lives down the road from where the lived down the road from where the prison is still. But on the file, there's a there's requests, you know, Please, can I be transferred? And also, that's the first time in the whole period he's in prison, that he's having to do hard labour. He was sentenced to hard labour, but he hadn't had to do it until then. [00:27:30] And there are discipline reports in this file, but there's nothing to suggest that he'd fallen out of favour. But I can't help thinking, um, that it's something to do with with, you know, he was in prison for attempted murder, but I think he was being regarded well, there are references to him being a sexual pervert, so that was obviously how he was seen. So I just this isn't really answering your question, but you. You just have to be very vigilant, really, and just and and And this means you've got to sort of keep track of things. But it's [00:28:00] really only after this many years down the track that I've sort of realised that I think there might be more to him being in New Plymouth prison than than I'd originally thought. Do you have any, um, tips for? I mean, I can see that context is incredibly important, but there must be a point where you come to where you actually try and work out. What is the relevant information? How do you How do you distil down into what is relevant for your research? You need to You need to research smart. I mean and [00:28:30] and and really, the best thing is to be using your time for the most important stuff, you know, And I mean from working at Radio New Zealand and and the, um, really skilled reference librarians that are here and and other librarians I've worked with, I've seen how you know there is a way of researching targeted research so that you spend the time in the places that are worth spending time in, And that's why it's better to, um, think that way rather than and try and be a more targeted researcher than just Blind [00:29:00] Googling, because a lot of the things that are available online are not publicly available. So, for example, there's a thing called the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, which is England's biography. And unlike ours, it's not publicly available. So you either have to find a place that has a subscription to that or, you know you can pay for access to it. Now that's got a biography, um, of a guy called Hector who, [00:29:30] um, was a gay New Zealand expat writer who hasn't been well, um, isn't really well known here because he really left. New Zealand became a very famous royal biographer, but that's got a really important part in it that he apparently left New Zealand because of the shooting in. Now I would have never, um, never known about that if I hadn't. So you've got to Yeah, and I mean, how do you It's by having a bit of a plan having, um, I think trying to it's [00:30:00] These are the skills that historians have got I mean, they and and it's not just doing the research, it's actually what you do with it. But I suppose if you've got the clear sense, I mean, what they're trying to do is, you know, to have very clear research questions. See, that sort of guides you to keeping you on track as well. That's why I'm saying I'm not such a good Um, I Maybe I'm not as focused as as, um as I could be, but but I guess you know, it's It's the It's sometimes the some we're talking about research [00:30:30] for its own sake, but often there is an end product in mind, even if it's just an interview or something. Um, but that that can kind of guide you, but probably you know what? What is it that you're actually trying to work out here? Um, that sort of guides you, because then you can actually look at the secondary sources and we Well, that's relevant. That's not relevant. But but be aware that, um, increasingly, you know that. Well, just as you know, you might have to interline a book or buy a book. I mean, stuff on. Don't just assume that everything you're gonna want to find on the Web will [00:31:00] be easily available if you don't have access to these, um, stuff that's behind pay, subscriptions and things, I guess also with the web is that if it doesn't come up on the Google search, it doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist, does it? I mean, it it it might not be on Google, but it might be out there somewhere. Yeah. And I mean, if you're part of a university, you know, universities are about the last place in New Zealand. Well, maybe there are some commercial places, but, um, universities subscribe [00:31:30] to a lot of databases that can, um, so students are very lucky. So if you've got a way of accessing that or else, um, your local library, um, libraries have all got, um, skill trained, sort of, um, research librarians. And they have a certain number of, um, databases that are available. I mean, there are amazing things available now. There are, um, historical newspaper databases now, so you can So Charles Mackay was killed in Berlin in 1929 so I was able to find, you know, [00:32:00] the New York Times articles, articles in um, Canada and articles as well as articles in England and and other countries. So there's there's stuff. Yeah, I. I wouldn't I wouldn't really, um I wouldn't Really. Google is just You could just waste a lot of time. You you have to actually do more, sort of targeted, and, um, something I've learned to do, too, is to take notice of people's references. So, you know, when I was wanting to research in Germany because I [00:32:30] when Charles Mackay was killed in Berlin, there was quite a controversy about it. And there's quite a lot. I suspected there would be a bit in the archives and there's there's a huge amount in the archives, but but I don't speak German, but I had German speaking friends helping me, but what I did was I. I found books about the riots that he was killed in. And I looked at the references and, um, like I looked at the history of the German. He was killed by a German policeman. So I found a history of the German police, which has got references in it to, um because, you know, these sort [00:33:00] of books will be based on original research. And so if they've been done properly, they'll have their references in there. And so I was able to use these references and then take those to the archives in Germany, and that led me to the files on Charles Mackay. So that was really, really lucky. And in some of the archives, you could just work like you can here, you know, give them names and and they'll find what they can. But it was a great thing to be able to. Um, that's another reason why secondary sources can be quite helpful. Is it really important? Like right at the get go to actually define what [00:33:30] you're researching and why you're researching it. Do you Do you think that actually, it's really important to have that clear in your mind at the start? Or is it something that just kind of evolves over time? No. No, you should have it clear. I think the trouble with me is that it's been an evolving thing, and that's probably not such a good thing. Don't do this. Um, yeah, I think it does depend on on the purpose for the research, actually, but yeah, ideally, and even if it's just, [00:34:00] um, a couple of research questions, and that also makes you look a bit more professional if you're going to talk to people. Um, because it it's a clear sort of sense. I mean, usually there is a sort of a, um uh, you you can sort of distil it down into a research question of or two or whatever. Why? Why you're looking at this and yeah, it will change over time. And that's the beauty of doing the That's why you're doing this is because you are trying to find you're trying to. I think of this as trying to move the move, our understanding of something forward, and and and I and [00:34:30] I'm always, you know, you're acknowledging the work of people you're building on the work of of people who came before you, and you won't be the last. I won't be the last to be looking at Charles Mackay. Um, but you're part of that sort of continuum. But that means, yeah, you got to be clear about what you're doing at that time, and and so you. It just makes sense to be clear about what's been done before and also about being your practises as you go forward, you know, documenting your references and that sort of thing. Those sort of things are really, really important. [00:35:00] How much weight would you put on kind of understanding yourself as a researcher, you know, knowing why you're doing what you're doing, knowing your own kind of prejudices and and where you come from, How how important is that for you? Yeah, I think I think it's really important. I mean, I think there is a view I think historians might have. Some historians might have argued that, you know, you're you, you're just being objective and you're not really there. But I think [00:35:30] I think, um, as in journalism, I think, um, there's this other idea that that you can't help but be influenced by your background and what you bring to it. And I would have loved to have had to talk to Michael King about the way he, um, handled Frank Sarge and sexuality in his book. And and again, it's a consequence of that that was written in the eighties, I think, was it and I mean, you know, things have, things have changed. Um, since then it would, you know He sort of said that a biographer's duty is [00:36:00] to go as far as the bedroom door, but not beyond, um, which some people might might take issue with. But, um I mean, people have said to me, You know, why are you interested in this? Look, look inside yourself and and, um, ask yourself, Why? Why has this story about Charles Mackay and things got you interested? And I think it's to do with being gay. Um, I haven't quite quite figured it out. And you see how being gay made me [00:36:30] sort of hyper conscious of, um, not wanting to label him as gay. But I've sort of realised years later that actually, I think it's the point of the whole story. But that's not that's not a bad process to have gone through, um, and I. I guess what you're trying to do is you're always trying to imagine yourself into another time. I mean, and that's the skill of of historians is that they can They can do that, you know, a quote that and put me on to, uh, from a talk that Greg Denning, [00:37:00] a historian, that she, um, always talked about an Australian historian. He said something like, You know, the worst thing that we can do is to imagine, uh, that our the best thing we can do when we're thinking about our ancestors is to is to imagine it's just us in funny clothes. And I've really like that idea that you've just got to allow people. You've got to see people in their own context. So part of that is acknowledging you and where you sit and that you're, you know, a person who's come from a particular [00:37:30] generation and and, you know, the people they people you're looking at and also all the people you know, the people in between are in different time contexts. I suppose that's why I like talking to Chris Brickle because he's a sociologist and that's a that's a He's a He's a sociologist who writes good history, but he comes at it from a sociological perspective, which is very much about looking at people in their environment. Hm, yeah, you're thinking of you. And as part of that you know your discipline and where you the skills [00:38:00] you're bringing to it as well. Um, as as a researcher, I think probably to be aware of as well. And there might be things that you know you're not so good at where that's where you might get help from people, and that can help keep you on track as well. Is there a difference? Do you think between being an independent researcher or having the backing of an institution or uh, having a publisher for for a book? Do you find that people treat you differently? Yeah, there are swings [00:38:30] and roundabouts. I mean, probably if you're not in an institution, you've got a freedom that you don't have if you're in in in an institution. But on the other hand, you know it's hard for independence. Um, the freelancers, because they don't have the the resources, the institutional backing. But I, I don't think, um, I don't think it's necessarily a barrier. I think, uh, I think it's good to have published some stuff. Um, I think that's probably what's helped me is that that have done a couple of books and in particular a biography, [00:39:00] Um, that that was published by a really, um, well known New Zealand publisher. I think it really helped me. I think I wouldn't have felt as confident. Yeah, and it's been It certainly is hard not having a, um, not having a publisher for what you're working on. Um, and that's my thinking at the moment is that I really need to just pull some of these ideas together and do an outline and proposal and start a bit more actively taking it around some of the publishers, [00:39:30] because I just I think I'm just That's just the sort of person I am. I just need that, um, structure of, um, deadlines and word limits. But no, I mean, both of them would Would would have swings and roundabouts, but it's not necessarily a barrier. And people don't necessarily treat you, um, any differently or worse or whatever. If you if you aren't from from an institution, so you would have been able to access things like the prison records if you hadn't been, say, working at Radio New Zealand, as if [00:40:00] you've just gone there by yourself and said, I'm I'm interested in this Well, I don't know, although I mean, I'm I've I've had to reapply for access to that file, and when I initially got the access, I had to apply to the Minister of Corrections. And we did that from here through through Radio New Zealand. I've had to since do it directly to corrections and and just as an individual. But, you know, I've written letters, um, emphasising that, you know, I'm a bona fide researcher, and I you know, I'm doing this for a [00:40:30] biography and da da da so And, um so you see, both, Both both ways. It sort of worked. And, um, I've had a good good relationship with, um, corrections, actually over getting access to stuff. It's a nine. There's 100 year rule for prison files. Um, I think linked them with the clean slate legislation. So for something that happened in 1920 Well, 20 to 26. You see, I'm still well with inside the 100 year, even though part of it, when I wrote the letter, was to say, you know, this man's not [00:41:00] alive, and actually, now none of his Children are alive either, So, um, yeah, yeah, it's I like to think it's more about having your arguments and your credentials kind of there rather than who I was or whether I was in an institution or not. Have you come across any time when the your research has been stymied because it's it's it's queer related. No, it's funny. You you may not even necessarily [00:41:30] know that What I have run into is that I think genealogists, you know, saying genealogists are great to work with, But what? I got a fright. And this one was realising that there is a genealogical convention that you don't provide information, um, relating to living subject living people. So I sort of wondered why I was being given information to a certain point because what I was trying to do was to get to the get far enough down so that I could basically hit the phone book [00:42:00] or the, um, electoral rolls. Um, because I wanted to find people who were alive and see whether they had any memories or any information about this. Um, so sometimes that's that's not exactly what you're talking about, but no, no, not, um, not directly for being sort of queer research, as I say. I mean, I gave a talk about this as part of Whanganui Heritage Weekend late in 2011, and, um, one of [00:42:30] the reasons I was pleased to do that was to see whether and it was any sense of it being a thing that wasn't OK to talk about. And there was no sense of that. I mean, it might have been that those people didn't come to the talk, but people there were very interested. So I think, you know, maybe, um, the death of the final daughter has had something to do with it That that people had suggested that that when she was alive, there was a sort of a difference that people didn't didn't talk about it out of respect to her. And I [00:43:00] sort of observed that it seemed to be a bit of a difference in the in the attitudes of people who were from and people who sort of had moved to the people who moved to were very keen to talk about it. But the ones who are from were less keen to talk about it. And we wondered whether that was to do with a suspicion that we were gonna do something that made the town look bad or something. But certainly I maybe I've been working on this for so long. Things have changed, you know. There was no sense of it being a thing that was not right to talk about when we did the Heritage weekend, [00:43:30] which is good. So in trying to communicate with the Charles Mackay's daughter, Um, how did you go about that? What? What was the kind of how How did you approach her? Well, I, I regret that I, um both times I checked out and got through to do it because, um, I thought Prue makes Children's programmes, and she's lovely and no one can be nasty to her. But so Prue knew that this might be the only chance we ever got to talk to her. So Prue took some quite good [00:44:00] notes, which was really good. So, um, I think we we talked it through. She knew to be very careful about documenting because this might, you know, as it was, well, we had one more chance because I think we rang her again after we found the prison file, because I think we were thinking, you know, we got quite a shock to see the photos, the prison photo and the letters and things. And and especially when we read that the letters had said you know. Do you have any news about my Children? I mean, it was very personal stuff, and so we thought we'd alert her to that. But, [00:44:30] um, she wasn't really that that keen on that? Um, no, it was just cold calling. But I know the second time I remember Prue saying, um to me, you know, she said, Well, you you might be more used to this being a journalist, but I'm not. And and she found it very hard. And and like I said, I think it kind of was a thing that made us. It probably is a reason why we didn't really pursue it, because, um, it was such a hostile resistant, uh, such a resistant [00:45:00] reaction to being contacted. But that's that's fair. That was her call. Do you have any tips? Uh, coming from your kind of journalistic background in terms of trying to get on side with people that you cold call them. You have to, um well, you see, uh, different approaches can work for different people. You, you might want it might be better to write. You know, some people might respond better to that. It might give them a and I have done [00:45:30] that, too. I've I've written, um I know Charles Mackay's. It's either his great it's either his granddaughter or great granddaughter as a judge in San Francisco, and because Charles Mackay had a daughter who went to America and died in the twenties. But she married a man who became the head of the Harvard Medical School, and it's one of his descendants. That's a judge in San Francisco, and I tried hard to meet with her when I was in San Francisco, and she through an assist through, uh, the communications [00:46:00] person for the San Francisco court said she didn't want to meet with me, But, um, you know, I didn't think she really knew anything about the story. But, um, you know, wished me well in the book. But, um, because judges like here are very hard people to reach, uh, probably even harder in in America. Um, I think you have to, you know, sometimes, um, sometimes finding someone who knows someone can be, um, [00:46:30] it is. This is tricky sort of stuff to to, um, because you don't quite know how people's attitudes are gonna, uh what they'll be like. So, yeah, sometimes writing can be good. I think being being very upfront, um, is a good thing, you know, um, and again, just just thinking about would I be comfortable answering these sorts of questions, you know, or would my if someone was contacting our family about these sort of things? I mean, if you just make it basic like that and and behave, respectively, I mean, being [00:47:00] I sometimes find that, you know, being onto it and knowing what you're doing is is a really good thing, you know, being professional. And And I think that impresses people that if you're taking it seriously and not just, um, you know, doing as a prurient exercise, perhaps that that sort of thing. But just yeah, just those basic sort of things, you know, being it's it's different. It's it's a bit different to journalism because journalism is usually sort of thinking [00:47:30] about a a radio story or a newspaper story or something, you know? I mean, you might have different options, I suppose, for, um, for this sort of research, you know, you might be able to Well, even in journalism, you can do that too. You can sort of, you know, not necessarily attribute things to people. There's various. But the first thing you've got to get over is getting people to talk to you. Yeah, so, you know, I mean, I've I've emailed, I've emailed like academics overseas. [00:48:00] I've, um I've written to people in New Zealand. I've I've, um sometimes it's good to do that, and then you can follow that up with a phone call so that they kind of know a bit about what you're talking about. I mean, just depends. You just have to, um or sometimes I've tried to find people who knew someone I was trying to contact and gone gone through them. Did the daughter ever say why she wasn't interested in talking to you guys? No, but But what we got what surprised us is [00:48:30] that she didn't seem to be that fussed about the homosexuality. You know, it was more just generally him being made to look bad. You know, um, and I remember Prue said to her, Do you think he was set up? And that's because that's one of the aspects of the story that is a strong part of the story. But it's not very easy. It's not documented at all the you know who. How did Darcy? Chris will come to be blackmailing the mayor. And, um, and Prue said to her, Do you think he was set up? And she said, Of course he was, Um, which sort of surprised us we we sort [00:49:00] of sense that she wasn't so embarrassed about, um, the homosexual angle or anything. But it's just that, um, you know her her her father's reputation. She'd done an oral history, Um, for suffrage. Um, the anniversary in 1993 which is at the Turnbull. And the woman who did that told us about it. And she said, Oh, you know, imagine talking for five hours and not mentioning your father once. Um, it's not quite right that [00:49:30] there are a couple of, um, couple of references to him in there. Um, and it was useful, too, because it confirmed the pronunciation because she does say his name on the tape. Um, Prue and I went and had a listen to that interview, and we only listened to the bits that we thought were interesting. I've since gone back and had a listen to it because it is actually really interesting just to get a I've realised that the, you know, the family context, this family that the mayor married into were one of the top, um, wealthy, respected [00:50:00] families in in, um and I think that's a whole part of the story of Of how the story, um, why people didn't talk about it was because it was that one of those sort of families. And it's sort of about the way that has changed. I mean, it might be to do with the way I've approached this story. I mean, Bronwyn Daley talks about a thing called micro history where a small story can tell you a bigger story. But Jack Perkins from Radio New Zealand came along to the talk I was giving and he said to me he [00:50:30] thought maybe this story could work in a similar approach to the way he he told a story for a Labour Day programme about the, um, man who was hanged in America because he was a communist and a New Zealand guy was trying to find the ashes because the ashes had been sent all around the world. Um, and you know, this sort of little story that actually tells a bigger story. But when Jack came to the talk, I said, Oh, what do you think? Do you think it'll work? And he says, Oh, no, really, that's the story of New Zealand because it's a story about [00:51:00] we know the decline, the rise and fall of Whanganui. It's, um it's about homosexuality. It's about, you know, And it's even got international angles in it with, um, you know, Charles Mackey being killed in a riot in Germany and the sort of rise to power of the Nazi Party. So yeah, it's That's why it's become a bit, um, amorphous and hard to hard to pin down because it does have all these sort of, um elements to it. Have there been elements in your research where [00:51:30] you know, you found out information and then somebody says you cannot use that information? Well, I remember a Alistair Morrison telling me when as a journalist that you know, when someone tells you something off the record, one of the things you can do as a journalist is find that information from somewhere else because the it's quite an important thing to know. Well, I mean and and you know assuming that information is true is correct. You know, that's an option you've got is that you can then think, [00:52:00] Well, who else can tell me that? And you see, there's things like that you can do with this. I mean, you might be able to think, Well, is there anyone else who could tell me that? Or you could look at, um, ways of including that without, um revealing. Who told it to? I suppose I mean, um, I guess what you have to do in that situation is, um you have to be very you know, that's territory where you've got to be really careful that it's, you know, trying. And this is where verification is quite important. [00:52:30] But I think you perhaps want to try and, um, ask around that a bit more and and work out why. And, you know, would there be any circumstances that that would be OK to do? And they might say, Oh, well, as long as you not use my name or yeah, I mean and and and you know, the more you find out about it like the context of that information, it might give you ideas. I just because someone says that I don't think necessarily means that you don't have any options. I guess [00:53:00] going on from that is is not only blocks but actually getting permissions to use material. So, like, for instance, um, photographs and, um, A and writings. I mean, I know that there have been a number of examples in New Zealand about some writers that have been admitted from publication because their estates don't want them in publication. Do you have any examples that you could you could share that? That your things I'm aware of? You know, I know when Peter Wells and [00:53:30] and Rex Pilgrim did their book, um, it was there were various writers whose literary states wouldn't the the writings were under the control of the literary executives. And so, um, at that stage, the executives wouldn't give them permission to be appearing in a thing like that. And so I think literary literary, um, executives are in a tricky people's executives are in a in a tricky position. Um, and I think you find [00:54:00] that's why I keep saying things. Things change over time. I mean, since that book came out, all of those papers have become unrestricted and available. Um, you know, these people often knew the person who gave them the right to be their executor, and they're having to sort of interpret that person's wishes. And it's it is to do with the just the the way that the context, the context does change. The thing about these things is, you know, to be aware of them and really understand what they mean. [00:54:30] Um, so do you know, does this mean you can quote from it in a PowerPoint data show? A presentation? Does this mean you can, you know? What does it mean? Does it mean you can't publish it? You know, really, you've really got to understand what those restrictions mean, and you've got to not leave it to the last minute to, um you know, make sure you get those approvals if you need them, because it could seriously undermine your project. But at the same time, I think this might be becoming less of an issue. I mean, there are there are just general things that you've got to be careful about, [00:55:00] like, um, things in copyright and stuff that that, um that's really, really significant. And that doesn't change. Whereas I think things about gay stuff must be. I'm sure there are still problems, problematic areas, but I'm I think my sense is that it is getting a bit easier that we less less likely that that things just generally I think things the further away. I think you're just [00:55:30] gonna have a harder time of it. The closer you are, you know, if there are still living descendants, that sort of thing. Um, although I was at a talk recently with someone Oh, I was listening to Selena Hastings talking about his Somerset, Mo biography and she, you know, it was very clear that that the that the duty a biographer owes to a grandchild is is quite different to the duty they owe to a child, which is duty different to the duty you owe to a partner or spouse, which I thought was an interesting way of looking at it as well that there are degrees of [00:56:00] closeness in terms of the way the biographer has to should be should be working. But, um, the main thing about those restrictions is to, um, be aware of them and really understand them, you know? So ask the librarians or the curators what that means So that you don't drop yourself in it. Because if you do, um, breach those, then you might. You know, I always worry about having a hard time when I go back to that library or, you know, and need to access collections again, [00:56:30] or the next researcher after you, you know, because it can, um, it could cause problems for everyone else. It could make that collection become less successful. Um, you know, and and that's why at archives, things sort of keep changing because there was a controversy about, um, a box of David Long papers being released and it, you know, it had drawings by his daughter. But it also had stuff that, um, was to do with New Zealand's foreign relations with, um America, I think, [00:57:00] and anti nuclear stuff. And it was still sensitive. But that caused I think that caused a He had huge ramifications for access to material for everyone else. And that was probably more the, um, on the archive side. Actually, that one, but yeah. No. With those restrictions, you just need to really understand them and be aware of them. I'm wondering if you have any ideas about, um, how to protect queer history and how to protect histories that are being [00:57:30] made now so they don't get lost. Are there things that you can think of that we can do? Having Charles Mackay in the Dictionary of Biography and Darcy Cresswell and and having the the sexuality there as a as a topic kind of, Yeah, gave it a sort of a credibility. And it also meant that it was easy to find, you know, when Helen Shaw was trying to do her work in the sixties, you know, it was way harder, you know, nearly 30 [00:58:00] years, you know, 20 more than 20 years before decriminalisation. Um, you know, it's just important that it be there as, um subject headings in a catalogue. Like I said in the card files in, you know, the fact that I just can't find anything about Pride Day, But but again, I've, um, Phil Parkinson mentioned to me that that has the gay group newsletter. So I did have a I haven't managed to find it there [00:58:30] either, but, um, that was great to have that sort of resource. So, you know, it's I think you need stuff in both. You need to think about it in two ways you need. You know, you need the the li, uh, general libraries. The general cataloguing systems need to sort of recognise this. But also, you need your specialist repositories and catalogues and things as well, you know? So I've had a had a bit of a talk to the Lisbon and archives in Melbourne. Um, [00:59:00] because I've got this. I've been wondering how this story was covered in Australia, and I think you know, whether it's Australia's first homosexual reference as well, based on what's in trove, which is their equivalent to, um, papers past. But as the one of the curators for that archive said to me, he said, Well, you know, truth is not online, Um, but they've done an index of truth, which they've said they'll give me, um, an index to truth. But, um, they see New Zealand. Truth is online and papers passed, and that [00:59:30] makes a huge difference because that would cover things um, to do with sex and crime that other papers wouldn't. And that's been quite useful, actually. Um, for this, you know, because they recovered this story in a completely different way to everyone else. And it's also been good for getting a, um, yeah, for that context. I think other gay historians find truth quite helpful because it it would go where other places wouldn't other papers wouldn't. [01:00:00] So, do you think in the past the reason why things weren't keyw worded? Was that a some kind of censorship, or was it just because it just wasn't done? Or why do you think? I'm not sure. Yeah. I, I wonder, um I mean, the names, you know, even the terminology changes, doesn't it? You know, even, um queer. Um, you know, and I've interviewed, um when I've interviewed older gay people, [01:00:30] you know, I've used the word gay, and they say, Oh, you know, that didn't That doesn't mean anything. You know, we didn't use that word. They say, you know, so it's always, um the terminology is a slippery thing as well. It's It's not necessarily, um, clear when you when you should use that. You know what particular terms? Um, so I'm not sure. I I'm really not sure. I mean, um, it's probably a combination of, um, public attitudes. Um, [01:01:00] well, pre 1987 it would have been because it was illegal, wouldn't it? And then, yeah, and then it might be sort of a through a sort of a, um because I think it's different now. I think I think you you will find stuff under gay and lesbian and bisexual, transgender and and homosexual. Hm. I mean, lately, what I've been looking at is, um, stuff to do with the history of homosexuality, which is really interesting. [01:01:30] That and I mean, it may be completely irrelevant to what I'm doing, but but, you know, um but it's it's just interesting the debates that are going on in the history world about, um whether homosexuality is seen as something that's sort of innate, or whether it was something that was created by the medical and legal climate, which is a really interesting argument. And there's been some, um, critique. There's a guy called, um, Sir Jeffrey Weeks, who's done some really amazing [01:02:00] amazing history, and I think he comes from a sort of a sociological perspective. I think they call him the social constructive Constructivist approach that's been critiqued by later people who sort of challenged that. So, um, because if I'm trying to find out, you know, Is this the first homosexual in New Zealand? It's quite good to know to be aware of those debates. So that's why I've sort of, you know, come back around. And I'm now looking at a bit more secondary stuff and again, sort of looking at, you know, the references for there because I think, [01:02:30] given that that's the sort of, um, angle I'm looking at now with this project I, I found I need to have a bit of a feel for those sort of debates. And the word homosexual that was actually used by Charles Mackey's defence homosexual monomania was the way they talked about it. Yeah, so that that was what he'd been treated for in 1914. I mean, I don't know if that's how they would have, because that's six years earlier and that, you know, all the timing is quite significant. If [01:03:00] you think of the things like Freud's work and, um, the whole idea of homosexuality as a mental illness and sort of pathologize, I think it was thought of as a bit different, Um, in 1920 even earlier in 1914 and at the moment. What I think it was was to do with, um, hypnosis and, um, auto suggestion, uh, which was sort of grouped together as this thing called, um, suggestive therapeutics. But you see you then realise [01:03:30] you've got to understand how was the medical profession structured then and actually through some other work at the Ministry for Culture and Heritage? I interviewed someone whose father was the first medical specialist in in the Cargill in 19 in the 19 twenties, and he was an ophthalmologist, and he there was a lot of resistance from doctors who were, like, used to doing everything. And suddenly there were these specialists. And it makes you realise that it's so different to how it is now where we're used to having medical specialists. And it's also a period when people [01:04:00] who weren't qualified doctors had Well, in the case of Wanganui, he had quite a significant role. Now, the man who treated Charles Mackay for his homosexuality was, um, uh also called, um a Albert Godfrey, Mackie or Mackay. So same name? Not as far as I can tell, Related, But he was not a doctor, but he'd trained to. He wanted to be a doctor but couldn't afford to train as a doctor. So he he seemed to occupy this very strange space that, [01:04:30] you know, it doesn't I suppose you might call it like what we'd now call homoeopathy or something. But he when there was a flu epidemic in, he was in charge of one of the areas for the medical, um, treatment or, you know, looking after people in. So he and his descendants have said to me and all the doctors were his friends, and he had rooms and, um, street, which is the Harley Street of Wu. So you see, that's so different to how things would be now. And so when you say, Oh, Charles Mackay was treated, [01:05:00] um, for homosexuality. People look at you and sort of think you're gonna say it's like Alan Turing or electric shock therapy or hormone therapy or it's it's really nothing like that. And it's, um and it's and and in 1914, we know that this other guy, Albert Godfrey Mackey, was, um um, running public hypnosis shows, um, like Andrew Newton and putting people under and making them do funny things. And he was a ventriloquist as well but he was also at the same time, had a little practise [01:05:30] treating people for nervous disorders. And I think homosexuality was seen as a nervous disorder. I think lots of things were put down to your nerves then, because in the court case in 1920 the specialist said, relapses of homosexuality are generally caused by alcoholism and neuroth. The neuro was, um, nervous exhaustion and a lot of illnesses were put down to your to your nerves. And so when we talk about people having a nervous breakdown, we're really that's the last remnant [01:06:00] of that sort of language. ME is possibly a little bit like that. But now the things that they thought were to do with nerves, we classify differently like homosexuality, which we don't even really see as a disorder anymore. But at that at that stage, that was sort of how they saw it. Um, so things like, um, you know, stuttering, insomnia and impotence. All sorts of things were put down to nervous, nervous exhaustion. So, yeah, it's been interesting trying to figure that out, But you see [01:06:30] how it opens up more questions, you think, Oh, crikey. How how did GPS work? and with other specialists at that stage and all these other questions so it can go on forever. One thing that jumps out to me is that you've got so many strands in your head. How do you How How How do you not take your research? How do you do you have any tips for that? Well, one of the things I sort of do whenever I talk to historians is is, you know, ask them how they organise stuff, and traditionally, one of the ways they organise [01:07:00] it is by source, because often that's how you're having to quote it if you're gonna have to give your references. So I talked to one historian and she said, Well, you know, there's my box from the and there's my box from Turnbull. You know, when I'm working on a particular project and I've sort of sort of tried to, um um, follow that as well, but, um, and then I've grouped things by chronologies are helpful sometimes, you know, just thinking, Um, what part of the of this guy's life does it relate to? I mean, [01:07:30] I know historians who do things by chapter, so, um, sometimes they have a very detailed plan of the book they're going to do, and they just have a you know, they've got a chapter breakdown. And so when they go off to the Turnbull or the or whatever, they everything slots into that, that relevant chapter I haven't found that so easy. But I've tried doing things like, you know, um, grouping it by things that relate specifically to Charles. Mickey, I've sort of put in in date order. I mean, I've run into problems, [01:08:00] you know, where I how to how to organise newspaper sources? Because I if you're following that thing of, you know, where did I get this from? But if you've got newspapers from, you know, four different places in New Zealand, But really, what you want to know is, you know, where are my articles from 1920 covering the court case? Sometimes, you know, they can be a bit unwieldy, so I'm not necessarily a good, um, a good role model for that. But those are two ideas that you know, If you've got a very detailed plan for your book, you could do it by that Grip your research [01:08:30] that way, or or even if you do do that, you need to keep track of where you got it from, because that's where you're gonna have to be, um, attributing it for your references so that someone else can find the same thing. I'm wondering just in summary. Could you just reflect back on the last hour that we've been chatting and maybe just, um, do a quick bullet list of things that if you had to quickly tell somebody This is how, um the things that you need to look [01:09:00] out for in terms of research and queer history? Uh, what would they be? Yeah, well, I was just looking at some of the things I thought about before we did this. I mean, yeah, I think my key thing we've talked about is the thing of being aware of what's gone before, Be aware of the broader context all the time. So you might think you're just looking at a queer story, But you actually need to understand the history of the town you're talking about. You need to understand the history of, um, you know, sometimes you might need to know about the medical profession, you [01:09:30] know, be prepared for that. That sometimes, um, you might need to think a bit more broadly, um, than than you might have thought. It's really important to see people in in their own time and in context. Um, all sources can be ambiguous, you know? So you've got to have a sort of a healthy scepticism. I think about about things. Newspapers can be wrong. Um, it's not just people are sometimes critical of oral history interviews for being, um you know, um, unreliable. But, [01:10:00] you know, documents can be wrong. Um, newspapers can be wrong. So always be trying to, um, where you can cross check and and corroborate being as clear as you can about what you're trying to do, you know, is is really worthwhile. I mean, I think people who are doing this in an academic context are lucky because they've got a framework of supervisors, and, um, the whole proposal that they've got to do to do that, that I think helps you. But alternate. You know, if you're working with a publisher, that, um, will force you to do [01:10:30] that as well. Think about, um, you think about yourself as part of a continuum of research and and also as part of a community of researchers and so be aware of, um, other researchers who've worked in this area, other curators and the institutions where you're going to research, you know, academics, Um, so that, you know, you're not necessarily on your own get, You know, you need to really get up to speed with, um, what they call finding aids, you know, which is indexes to collections, and especially when you're doing primary research [01:11:00] databases and things. Um, as, uh, I guess it's a secondary source. Think about the It's, um they're sort of like I think once you've sort of looked at the obvious secondary sources. So, you know, I don't know, published works, biographies, textbooks and things. I reckon the next layer down is the thesis. Um, so is anyone, um, done anything on this? Now, these are indexed quite a way back now and then and then before that. Back to the twenties and thirties and things there [01:11:30] are some, um, print indexes. They're called the union index of these or something. Those are worth, um, and again, I would find that the earlier ones, of course, didn't have anything homosexual or gay in them. So you have to kind of, um, think a bit laterally. But in my case, you know, I was interested in in stuff from from, um and also another big thing about queer history is that, you know, absence can be as significant as a presence. Don't. It's not necessarily a problem if you go looking [01:12:00] for something and it's not there because that in itself might be quite telling because this is a story. This will often be a story about absence because it's about, um, parts of our history, where these are things that you know because of community mores or legal prohibitions you know, didn't get talked about. And so it it, you know, it's it's not a straightforward process. Um, you know, And I've said, you know, Liberians are your are your best friend. I mean, they are. They are really They're great curators, [01:12:30] um, always be, um yeah, and I mean, just those basic follow the basic principles of good professional practise and that that will get you a long way in terms of getting support. You know, there is. There are things like history awards that are offered by the Ministry for Culture and Heritage Creative New Zealand fund writing, um, projects. But it's also worth thinking of, um, you know, the area that you're in and and different areas have, um, trusts community trusts, energy trusts. Um, And then the last thing, um, [01:13:00] yeah, just be try and be methodical in your practise so that you leave a path that others can follow. Um, so you know, footnotes and references, that sort of stuff, which can be a bit of a pain, but it actually hugely important. Because it can also mean that people can, you know, understand the arguments you're putting up, challenge them perhaps, if they want to, you know, track back and find your your evidence for doing that, and then build on that in turn.

IRN: 578
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/cos_julie_glamuzina.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003930
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089224
TITLE: Julie Glamuzina - Creating Our Stories
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Julie Glamuzina
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: Alison Laurie; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Broadsheet (magazine); Christchurch; Julie Glamuzina; Juliet Hulme; Out Front: Lesbian Political Activity in Aotearoa 1962-1985 (journal); Parker and Hulme: a lesbian view (book); Pauline Parker; Wellington; archives; courts; crime; history; homophobia; law; legacy; lesbian; library; profile; research; writing
DATE: 13 March 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um well, my name is Julie. Um, um, the most important thing about myself, I think, is that I'm a lesbian. Um, so that's how I identify, um, in terms of our histories. Queer, transgender, lesbian gay. Um, I think we're just at the beginning. There's heaps of stuff that we can do. Um, and and there are heaps of resources. And we shouldn't be put off by comments from the straight world or any other world saying, [00:00:30] um, there's nothing or we don't exist. Or, you know, there isn't enough. Um, and so it's up to us to search out and find, um, our history and redefine histories, Um, which have been given a straight straight interpretation so we can look at the world and look at it from a queer view, A lesbian view, Gay view, transgender view, um, as we wish. Um, my history background. I have a history, background, [00:01:00] general history, background, and in terms of my research, um, I'm particularly interested in, um, taking, um, my interest, my lesbian view of, um, the events which have affected me, um, the events which affect all of us and, uh, trying to uncover more about how our communities have survived and lived and and still do. Um, so my I suppose one of my, um, [00:01:30] uh, what I think is an important piece of research was around the park and Hume murder. Um, case, uh, so I did that with, um, Alison Laurie. So we looked at that case from a lesbian perspective and tried to understand why the reaction and what was the impact of that case? Um, in particular on lesbians in New Zealand. Um, subsequently, I also did a, um, chronology a booklet called [00:02:00] Out Front, which was an attempt at, um noting, um, significant events, um, which we had been involved in, And, uh, it kind of as a trigger or kind of as an aid, um, to, um to show what can be done and, uh, hopefully inspire other people to fill in all the gaps of which there were many, um, And to extend, um, you know, and to start building up a big repository, [00:02:30] um, of our own histories. Um, and I'm currently working on another project. Been lingering on this for some time. Um, so yeah, I. I think there's there's heaps to do prior to the two pieces of research that you've talked about. Are you aware of other research in New Zealand that has looked at kind of queer histories prior to the prior to that? Um, I think, Yeah. [00:03:00] Uh, in the work of, um, for example. Um um um people who were active in changing the homosexual law or the the law relating to homosexuality in New Zealand. Um, also, um, I'm I'm just one of the line I have to say, Um uh, there were lesbians who were recording, um, and keeping, um, artefacts, um, and trying to write up, um, aspects of our our histories. [00:03:30] Um, some names. So Zoe and Windler who kept the waxing moon archives, Um, in her own private premises. Um, which were sort of lesbian artefacts from, um, from here and overseas as well. Um uh, there there are heaps of people, uh, who were sort of collecting and writing. Um, when I was at Auckland University, um, uh, uh, women were writing, um, in the broad broad [00:04:00] sheet, which was a feminist magazine. Um uh, stuff about lesbians and the gay world. And, um I mean, there have been a number of people across the the gay and lesbian communities who have recorded and tried to keep track of, um, you know, uh, the events events which have impacted our lives in in this country. When you're coming to do a research topic, how do you find those sources if they are just individuals keeping [00:04:30] documents themselves or private archives? Well, I think that it's difficult, I think, Um, as with any history, there's there's problems of, you know, digging up stuff, and, um, in the established sort of straight I suppose there are some, you know, obvious, um, venues there are obvious, um, resources. Um, we have access to the same resources. Um, but [00:05:00] in our case, it is often a matter of reinterpreting and reading between the lines of what's available. Um, in terms of people, um, you know, with with their own archives, sometimes it's luck. Sometimes it's chance. Uh, sometimes, um, I mean, you just have to, um, try and interview and follow leads. Um, in that sense, you're kind of like a detective. Yeah, um, so that's that is the same problem of any history, I think. [00:05:30] But we have particular, um, we have particular obstacles because, um, we have obstacles in the moment in the sense that, um I think as a general rule, society doesn't want us to exist. And therefore is, um, you know, not helpful. Um, and, uh, negative and obstacle. Um, and we have obstacles in the past as well and that, um, [00:06:00] our activities are not recorded for what they are, and we are not recorded as we are. And, um, I know that who has done considerable research, Um, in this area. Um, she noted once during a speech, um, that even in death, we are colonised. Um, uh, so that you know, the family often will destroy artefacts that belong to a homosexual [00:06:30] Or, you know, a gay or lesbian or transgender person. And, um, try and sanitise their lives in their death. Um, so there there are things like that that we, uh you know, that that could create greater difficulties for us. Um, there is the interpretation of our lives, so people will say, Oh, well, those two women who live together. Yeah, they were great friends. They lived together for 50 years and shared the same room. But, you know, that was great friends. [00:07:00] Um um, So we have to, um look and perhaps dig a little bit deeper. Talk to people who knew them. Um, try and find out more about their lives and how they lived it, Um, what was the You know, who did they relate to? Mostly, Where were the energies and so on? And, um, perhaps put forward different interpretations. Do you have some examples of obstacles that have been put up? Like like, do you Do you know of families that have thrown [00:07:30] out queer related material from a person's life? Yeah, I do. And I know of instances where, um, the person has died. And so there's been a, you know, a funeral where you know, where we have been allowed to be, and then they've had, you know, the the sanitised funeral with the family and is a separate event. So, um uh, yeah, I think there's there's quite I. I don't know how widespread, but there certainly are instances of that [00:08:00] you mentioned reading between the lines. What are you looking for? What? What are the things that kind of jump up as a flag? Ok, so things like, um, two men or two women living together or there's some circumstance in which, you know, there's, um, um evidence of, um, a kind of some kind of relationship. Um, frequently, um, especially, let's say, take the newspapers, say, 19th century newspapers, early 20th century, even just [00:08:30] just newspaper records. Um, often, um, our communities appear in there because of some criminal, you know, supposed some of, uh, criminal activities or criminal events or a murder. Or, um, you know, something which has drawn, um, those people or that person to the, um, attention of the authorities. Um, and then it's become, uh, visible. Um, because there's been a court case, or [00:09:00] someone was murdered or, um, a place was raided. And, you know, there's a description about what was going on in the place. Um, uh, so I think, um, that's an obvious. Those are obvious starting points. And then you start to dig into the background and see Well, hm? This murder happened, or, um, there was some fight. And what was it about? Who were the people and then go from there? So it's like you've got just [00:09:30] a little grip. There's a tiny little toe, hold on on on something, and, um and then to see if you can work it from there. Um, there may be other other records associated. So, um, so perhaps start with the newspaper record and then go to, um, other, um, police records. Are there records of, um, other government agencies who were involved in that kind of, um, you know, in that particular event, Um, are there other commentaries on that [00:10:00] case? So is there further commentary a few months later in the same newspaper or or other newspapers? And so you look at the the contemporary reports and, um uh, see if other sources have mentioned additional information, and so from there, you can start to build up, um, some kind of picture. Um, next step is or another. Another step, um, is to put it in the context. [00:10:30] So find out about what's going on in that place at that time. So is that, um, certainly in 1920 Auckland 19 thirties. What's going on there? What are the people doing? Um, what are the general sources that are talking about, um, life at that time and then perhaps weave some of that in as well? And there may be comment comments about, um, or information about what was going on at the time in the thirties. So, for example, depression. [00:11:00] Um, so there may be sources about the depression that, um, might illuminate something that you're looking at from another angle. Um, so you can piece together, um, bits, Uh, until you get more of a more of a picture. I mean, historians are doing that all the time anyway, because, you know, we weren't there, so we've got to make it up to some. I mean, obviously not. We're not making up a fantasy. Um, but it's we are imposing our minds and our thoughts and our interpretations [00:11:30] all the time on the world around us and the world as we, um, try and picture it in our minds from the things that we read about something that happened 200 years ago or, you know, 100 years ago. So we're making it up. Um, but but I mean, in our case, it's, um uh, it's it's a similar problem to say, Um, the records around working class as opposed to politicians and, um um, you know, the [00:12:00] rich and where there's a lot of documentation, um, around their activities and might be artefacts, um, houses They lived in things they owned objects they owned and so on. Um, but I think in our case there, there's also, um um you know, I mean, we I mean, basically, I see that we are, um, priest and we've been suppressed as communities, and, uh, we've been murdered. Um, we've been put into jail. [00:12:30] We've been, um, put into, uh, you know, given mental, uh, treatment. Um, um, you know, so So, uh, that's reflected in how things are recorded as well. So, um, I know for a fact, too, that in Wellington, um, in the seventies eighties, when I was here, um, we protested against, um, the Wellington buses because they wouldn't allow us to have ads. [00:13:00] Um, advertising, Um, some lesbian community, um, resources. And, um uh, and the newspaper wouldn't carry the word lesbian. So And prior to that, they sometimes they would put gay in quotes. So there are those kinds of things that sort of, you know, perhaps, um, make it harder because there are not so many. There are not as many resources as there might be, but again, we have to read between the lines, and I'm wondering, is there specific words that [00:13:30] you're looking for. Like I mean, you say that, you know, the newspaper wouldn't print the word lesbian look for words like, um, pervert or unnatural or, um, yeah, kind of derogatory terms, um, used for us. Um, very. Sometimes they'd use queer very, very early on. Um, newspapers would use queer, not as we use it, but but what kind of year? Uh, probably early 19th century. Uh, sorry. Early 20th century. Um, [00:14:00] it was a queer night, and but they don't necessarily mean, um, you know, as we would interpret that. Yeah. Um, yeah. So the other thing is, I think I said was looking at the relationships that are, um What what were the people doing and what? Why were they involved with each other? Why would these two women be, um, in a boarding house together? Um, with an assumed name, for example. Why would [00:14:30] two men be in a park late at night together, And, um and so you think Is it is it some criminal deal going on, or perhaps a gay men meeting up? Because there's nowhere else, um, or because that's what we want to do. Or, you know? Yeah, That's usually there are derogatory kinds of terms that might lead you to think, Um, there's something. Not quite. Um, it's not quite straightforward there. So [00:15:00] let's see what what else is happening. Yeah. Um, is for for women you might look to see, you know, uh, women who were friends for a long time or, um, that kind of diminishing, diminishing words that take away from what is it you know, could well be, um, a sexual relationship Or, um, you know, obviously a long term partnership. Um, uh, women dressed, um, or described as being [00:15:30] looking like men or dressed Manish. Or, you know, walking Manish. Or, um, there was a case of a woman in, um uh, around World War One in Wellington. And she was, um, described as, you know, dressing rather Manish. And she was actually interned on Somes Island because they thought she was a, um, potentially a spy for, you know, the for the Germans. And, um and and she had a, um she was not of English [00:16:00] extract. Um, and she was described as sort of working closely with, um, another woman who was a doctor, and, uh so immediately I think Perhaps they were in a relationship. And perhaps, um, there was more to that, um um, circumstance that meets the ice. So, yeah, things like that. But do you think that it would be easy to read too much into things? I'm thinking that maybe in a newspaper of that [00:16:30] time, they might be wanting to other the person in some respect. So how do you know that this is like a relationship, or how do you know it's just somebody trying to be other? Yeah, Um, in some cases, I don't think you can You can't know because you don't have enough information. And, um, I think, um, I think hopefully not erroneously. I think I'm a little bit more conservative in my, um, approach. And so I would, um um, [00:17:00] it it it is easy to go too far, I think, and make up and say this is what it was when you don't really know. But we can say Hm. I wonder whether this might have been the case because a straight historian looking at it might immediately say, Oh, well, these women were obviously blah, blah, and so I would say, Well, no, um, why do you make that assumption that they're heterosexual? Um, I might make an assumption. I'm coming [00:17:30] from a point of view. Well, it's possible that they're lesbian possible that those men are gay men. So, you know, that is, um perhaps it's equally valid. It's probably more valid, um, to wonder that where there's, um you know, other indicators, Um, such as we talked about, um, so I I would say, um, you can we can certainly raise the questions. And we can certainly start to, um, you know, as other others have said, queer our his queer, the history, the history is, [00:18:00] um, stultified and stratified. Um, and we need to queer it and say, Well, actually, it could be this. So why do you immediately say, Oh, that's a straight relationship? Mhm. So we can certainly do that. And, um, I think, um, you know, I'm always aware I'm talking about someone who actually lived and like, it's another person. We're talking about people. So if someone was looking at my life and saying stuff, they'll say a whole lot of things that I wouldn't say, or [00:18:30] I might say, um, and I might be happy with what they're saying or I might not. Um, but people can look and see and make their own conclusions. Um, and as a historian, I can look and see and make my own conclusions, but I can't say, Oh, I know that this is what that person thought because I'm not in their minds. Um, but I can say, Well, I wonder if this was not the case. And here are the things that lead me to think that And even if I have very limited information, I can still wonder because I want to have [00:19:00] a different perspective on the world. I come from this perspective, which is a lesbian one. And so a queer historian can say, Well, from a queer point of view, I would say this about the case as opposed to, um, you know, if I was straight, you know, straight story might say something different. We can certainly do that. So you've talked about, uh, newspapers as a kind of great starting point, and you've mentioned things like police records and other types of records. How easy is it to actually access things like police [00:19:30] records and or health records and and look at somebody's kind of sexuality. Yeah, it's, I think, Well, it can be difficult depending on the time. Um, because in some cases there is, uh, time periods. Um, um, and And you're not allowed to look at the records until after, you know, 50 years or 60 years or something like that. And, um so that means you can't do anything with those. You can't use those records. Um, unless you've got permission, Sometimes the permission has to be from [00:20:00] a family member. Um, sometimes you may not. There may not be a family member. Um, or you haven't identified a family or family member or you don't know who they might be or whether And even if you did, well, they give permission. Um, So, um yeah, there. There are difficulties around that, but that shouldn't stop us from trying. And, um, asking for access. Um, I've accessed defence records. Um, and sometimes the records don't exist. They've been destroyed. Um, I know in my own case, when research [00:20:30] this particular document, it's got a reference, and there it just has disappeared. It is not anywhere to be found. Um, but the reference is there. And, um, it's so frustrating because it is quite an important reference. Um, but what happened to it? God knows, Um, perhaps it's misfiled. Or perhaps it's been destroyed when the, uh, government departments have reorganised and, uh And when When stuff has been digitised, I worry [00:21:00] that things might be might drop, drop between the gaps. Things might be missed. Um, but yeah, I think there there are some difficulties. Um, but having said that, it is It is possible to request records and to see, for example, in the case, We were, um, given access to their prison records. Um, and we were able to view that we weren't able to take them away, but we were able to, um, sit and read, um, the prison records. [00:21:30] Um um, so that was really good. And this is even when the people concerned are still alive. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. So it just depends on what the rules are around a particular, um, archive or so. How does that? How does that work with the prison records? In that case, in what respect? Uh, in terms of how were you able to access material when the people were still alive? And did they have to give permission or No, they didn't. Uh, the records belong to the New Zealand government. Um, [00:22:00] and we were doing, uh, research at the time, and we had a grant to, um uh, this was prior to publication of our book. Um, we had a grant to look at the social impact, the impact of that case. Um, um, you know, in in this country, So we were recognised as, um it it was helpful to have those credentials behind us. Um, to say we we needed to, or we would like to see these records to fill in the picture. Um, I think if as [00:22:30] an in private individual, it's a little bit harder because, um, you know, they may not see you as, um, bona fide. And, um, it's probably a bit easier if you belong in an institution or, you know, you have that kind of an academic credential behind you, but I didn't think that's a total blocker, but maybe an easier. An easier path for you is to either partner with an organisation or or perhaps enrol in a programme or something, so that you know, there's controls [00:23:00] over it, and that may, um, take away some issues around, Um, your you know, your access to material. So in that situation, you were able to research the material, but then were you able to actually publish it? Were you able to do anything with that? Sometimes there are rules around the use of the material, and you have You should abide by those rules, whatever they are. Um, but, um uh, in that particular instance, I can't recall all the all the all the rules around it. Um, but we were [00:23:30] able to We were able to use the material. Um, sometimes you can't directly quote, but, um, at the very least, it gives you a picture. So, you know, you, um you can have that in your mind or as part of the background of the work without necessarily, um, quoting and going, you know, um, you know, invading someone's, um, um private, um, records or with the like, um, of course, [00:24:00] people are dead. It's a little bit easier, but but not that easy, either, because there are there are families involved. I think one of the issues we have to deal with is is also the families don't Some families don't necessarily want people to know that they, um their father, their mother, their sister, their brother, their child, their son, their daughter, um, is is transgender Is gay as lesbian as queer. And, um um and that's that [00:24:30] those, um those the homophobia and the, um, the restrictions of those people. Um, and so it's it can be hard to get through that. Um, you just have to work around it. And with it, maybe we should also just, um, briefly explain what the Parker Hume case was. Ok, Yes, it is. Um uh, the Parker Hume case refers to the, um, incident [00:25:00] in 1954 where Juliet Hume and Pauline Parker together, um, murdered, um, Pauline Parker's mother, um, in Christchurch. Uh, and they were the The case was totally sensational. Um, media from all around the world came came to New Zealand to cover the trial, and, um, it's the focus of, uh, it's been the focus of, um, plays novels. Um, it's in compendiums [00:25:30] of of, um, criminal cases, Um, the world's worst murderers, Uh, et cetera. Um, ever since, um, it was, uh, had great public attention here, and there was a lot of focus on the nature of the relationship between Juliet and Pauline Parker, which was, um, perceived as a lesbian one. And I mean, we we went through, um, Were they lesbian? Were they not? Um, And the point is, they were perceived as lesbian, [00:26:00] and so we focused on the fact that they were perceived as lesbian. Um meant that they were treated in a certain way. And there were certain impacts of that, um, on lesbians in New Zealand and on the general public. So, um, that was our, um, focus. And so was that lesbian angle part of the prosecution case or Yeah, yeah. The prosecution said that they were, um, dirty minded girls out for experience and that this relationship was part [00:26:30] of the badness of them, and the defence tried to say, um, well, no, they weren't bad. They were mad. And, uh, so they relied upon a spurious, spurious, um, psychological construct called, which said they were mad together separately. OK, but mad together. And this is how they came to, um um murder Pauline's mother. Um, they were found guilty. Um, which is probably better for them because they were put in [00:27:00] prison and not in a mental institution. Um, and they served 55 or six years. And then, um, Juliet Hume was released and, um on they were released on probation, and Juliet Hume went overseas to join her mother. And, um, Pauline Parker was on probation in New Zealand for a few and then eventually left New Zealand. Um, but it was quite an important. It was a significant case. Um, [00:27:30] for lesbians in New Zealand, for example. Um, one woman said we we interviewed quite a number of lesbians to say, Well, did that case impact on them? And how did it if it did? And one woman said that after the after the trial and the expose of the details around the lives of the two families and the girls and the relationship, um, that her mother, um, she came, she came into her mother's room and her mother had a novel on on on her, um, [00:28:00] you know, beside a bed that she was reading, which was about, um, this was some time later, um, a novel was written called Obsession, and it was about the trial in the case. And, um and and this is what this woman's mother was reading. And so, you know, in her mind, it was My mother isn't reading that. And I've just told her I'm a lesbian. And now my mother is reading a book about, you know, two girls who are perceived as lesbian, and they murdered the mother. So this is not very [00:28:30] good. Um, so yeah, it was It didn't really help in that respect. And so both the defence and the prosecution used lesbianism as a as an angle as an angle. That's true. Yeah, you're quite right. Um I mean, yes. Yeah, that's true. It was well, in the context of the legal system, um, you could be, um you're guilty. If you were the the the prosecution was saying, [00:29:00] Yes, they're guilty because they're bad. And the defence was saying, Well, no, they're not guilty because they're mad. And, um uh, and to to get off, they had to. One way to get off was to say, Well, they were insane, so therefore not responsible. So that's what the angle of the defence was, which should didn't really was not a flyer. When you were researching your book. Did you have access to the medical records? We had access [00:29:30] to, um, the prison records, which recorded, um, health and other factors. Um, we had access to the coroner's report. Um, which was, you know, obviously full. Um, we had access to, you know, all the the publicly available material. Obviously, um, we interviewed, um, people closely associated with the case. Uh, so the psychiatrist who proposed [00:30:00] the, um, concept, Um, so we actually interviewed him. That was Doctor, um, we interviewed, um a number of, uh, the legal people who were, uh, involved with the case as well. And And, you know, a number of others school friends, school girls. And at the time, was lesbianism seen as a mental illness, like like with homosexuality. Yeah, totally. Um, it, um [00:30:30] Well, homosexuality in general is regarded as a perversion and, um, total problem. Um, whether it was between men and women and a lot of people didn't you know, men were a little bit more? Um, um what's the word kind of talked about or recognised them? Say lesbians? Um, so there's more about male activity and papers. Lots. There's lots of, um, reporting in the paper of men being, um [00:31:00] prosecuted for having sex with other men because it was illegal. Um, and so therefore, it was in the cause of the New Zealand. Truth is a great source, because it it was a kind of a scandal like a scandal paper. So it had divorces and, you know, sex. Um, related cases. And so it's a really good resource for us. Um, but doesn't Wouldn't Wouldn't that give you, like, a a lopsided view of of history because you you're only looking at the crimes and the supposed crimes. [00:31:30] Well, I, I was saying, That's one way. That's one end to, um, our communities. There are other ins and yes, I agree. If you only did that, then all we seem to be as criminal. But again, you can look at that and say, Well, um, two men were convicted of having sex with each other. Well, the society at the time said it was a crime, and society at the time said we were you know, um, we had mental illness, which is totally not correct. So, um, [00:32:00] you can still look at those circumstances and say, Well, this is the kind of oppressive world that we inhabited. And how do people survive? Um in the South Island, for example, there was a place, um, out the back somewhere And the the the people there, um, the guys there had set up, um, a little early notification system of someone arriving, um, down a long driveway so they could, you know, um, be prepared. Um, And [00:32:30] it was a gay gay place. And, uh, so people had to go to extremes to just to live an ordinary kind of social life. Um, so, you know, we can make a lot out of even, you know, something that's presented as criminal and and so on. Um, there are other other sources. So in, um, sometimes people have left, um, like journals. Um, in novels, you can get novels by gay and lesbian writers. [00:33:00] There are, um, depictions of people. Um, uh, you know, and we can work with that and build from there. Um, some writers and artists left records and artefacts, um, again, their journals or their recordings or their writings. And we can have a glimpse into their world through their writings or through their journals or through their, um, you know, um, letters. Um um, [00:33:30] cards, um you know, um, things that they kept in their houses. And, um so I think there's there's other ways to, um, try and uncover the worlds that we lived and created. The Parker Hume case is really interesting, as you say, because it's been, uh, documented and written about and and and made films of in so many different ways. When you look at that, then and you [00:34:00] look at what you and Alison have done and when you look at some of the other, more kind of mainstream views of of the same things, what are the main differences? What are the things that, um, are different coming to it from a kind of a a lesbian viewpoint? Um, well, if I take the example of, say, Peter Jackson's film, um, it's kind of irritating because I still see it as it's still sort of focusing on weirdness. [00:34:30] And, um, you know, the fantasy world and and so on. And, um, I, I would look at that and say, Well, yeah, well, they were teenage girls, and so they did writings and, um, they played games and they made up things. Um, people do, um and it's kind of, um in the in the from a straight angle. It's kind of a there's this kind of unspoken or sometimes, [00:35:00] um, overtly stated, um, connection that this is some evidence of, you know, weirdo lesbianism. Um, and I would say, Well, I can separate. We can separate that out. There's there's adolescent behaviour. There's, um, female adolescent behaviour. Um, is that lesbian? Well, you know, I might think something different. Um, and I would be looking for something more. So, [00:35:30] um, from a lesbian. The other thing is, there's also, um, almost an implication of, um um, you know that there's something wrong and I come at it from the point of view of Well, lesbianism is totally normal. Being gay is totally normal. Transgender is totally normal. So, um, we might take away certain, um, nuances [00:36:00] or certain, um uh, insinuations. One of the things we haven't touched on is the idea that, um, the changing face of homosexuality, I guess. And And what? Actually, um, being gay, queer lesbian what it actually means. And I'm wondering when you're looking at historic documents, how do how do you try and put yourself back in that time to work out? [00:36:30] Is this a lesbian relationship? Or is it just two women living together? How do you How do you kind of walk that path? Well, I think that, um, uh, first thing is that, um what we write about the past and what we write about now is a construct of our minds. Um, it's it's not a fantasy. Otherwise, you know, we would be novelists, and then you can write whatever you like and make it up. Um, so distinguishing [00:37:00] between, um, what I see is a total makeup and an attempt at, um um, we're still making up history because it's come out of my mind. And from my perspective and from whatever knowledge I have or managed to, you know, pull together, um, and also from, you know, my own personality and from my own values and so on. So we're always, um, coming from that perspective, regardless of who we are. So that's always [00:37:30] an overlay on what we're seeing and doing, and we should recognise it. Um, I don't think we can be, um uh, you know, there, there there was a sort of, um, idea of, um, you know, a so called objective history. And so I would say Well, there isn't any objective, objective history because you are always in it. So you're always affecting what you're writing. You're always influencing, and you are always putting it from your point of view. So, um, so that's what we're [00:38:00] doing and we acknowledge it. So when I look at something from, say, 19th century, um, I, I might not use the word lesbian, or I might I might say, um from my perspective now, I would call that a lesbian relationship. Um, that, you know, may may not be a term that the people themselves use or even knew about, Um But, uh, as long as we make it clear as to where we're coming from and on what basis we're [00:38:30] making a statement, then I think it's OK. Um, but I don't We can't willingly just go in and say, 00, here's a Here's a case of two women who lived here. Oh, they're lesbian because that doesn't really do anything. I don't think, but we can certainly question as I said before, we can certainly go in and say, Well, why assume that they're straight? Why assume it was just a friendship? Why assume this or I want to assume some other things. Um, but I'm going to say that I'm assuming them, or I'm going to be explicit and say, [00:39:00] Well, I don't think that you can say that these people were, uh, living a straight life. Because what about these other things? And what do we make of that? Do you find that there is much explicit material from early on, say, the 19th century or or earlier which explicitly says about homosexual feelings acts? Sometimes there is. Yeah. And, um And where that's the case, then we can, you know, go a bit further, I think how How [00:39:30] rare is that? Hard to say. I think it depends on which area you're talking about. Um, I don't I can't really comment on, you know, the whole world. But, um I mean, we know, you know, like the writings of Edward Carpenter. And you know, there's Oscar Wilde and so on, Just for a name, a couple of, um, people, Um, we have, um, evidence from, um, 17th century England, um, of two women living together, and, uh, I just forget their names again, [00:40:00] but, um, so yeah, so there There are instances um, Molly houses in London in the 17th century. So, um, you know, I think we can, um, you know, there are There are things yet to be uncovered because there are we we know of some examples, and so there must be more. I'm wondering if you've encountered blocks in researching queer topics either [00:40:30] organisational blocks or individual blocks and actually getting to material that, you know, is there Yes. Yes, I have, um, in my current research, um, So I'm looking at, um, the case of a person who was, um, born female. Lived as a man. Um, I think had top surgery. Um was described as masquerading as a man, but he she [00:41:00] identified as male from very early on and, um, live, uh, died only in the 19 nineties. Um, was married a number of times. Um, and, um, his last wife, uh, was still alive. And, um, I think is still alive. Um, but went, um, but went, uh, allow me to interview her. And I've also found and tracked down his very first wife, and, [00:41:30] uh, she she doesn't want to talk to me either. Um, because it kind of implicates them. I suppose in a way. So that's really, um, difficult. Um, so I've in the first case written, um, to the people and asked, would they speak with me and in, uh, and I've followed up and spoke to them directly. Um, but they've said no. And I think that I have to respect that. So I can't [00:42:00] go further with those people. Um, I did ask if they would reconsider, but they said no. Um, so I have to work with, you know, with what's available to me. Um, I think this kind of, uh um, no history is complete. Do you know what I mean? I can't. You can't pretend. Oh, I've done all this research. And now I know everything about, you know, blah blah this person or this case or this event. It's never the case, because, um, [00:42:30] we weren't there the whole time with all the people, and we weren't all the people all the time. So, um, any any history is always just an approximation anyway. And, um, so you have to I think, um well, that's my personal. My personal value anyway, that I should not pursue that any further with those people because they've said clearly what they want. Um, but that, uh, at the same time, um um, it's a history. [00:43:00] And so I'm I think we we are allowed to write history. And, um, if we never wrote anything because someone will be upset if we didn't write because we stopped writing because someone would be upset then then we don't have history. So, um, we That's part of the profession of history. I think one of the one of the issues with it, It's a really interesting idea that, um when you're looking at an [00:43:30] individual and maybe the family around that individual and then the greater community and the right to privacy from the individual in the family and then the right for the community to say, Actually, we want to hold up, um, or demonstrate that we have been here and we are still here. Yes, That must be quite an interesting tension. The way I think about it is this My family doesn't own me. I own me. And so [00:44:00] the subject of if I'm researching someone they own themselves is people who have an interest in how they're presented in the same way. You know, when people do genealogy, and they find out that there's some There was someone who was a criminal in their background. They don't want to know about it. And then these days, often people do find that interesting. Um, but, you know, if you, um, history is not about hiding, it's about uncovering as I see it and, um or, [00:44:30] you know, trying to trying to draw, um, pictures of the past, um, pictures of the present as well. And and, you know, say, how does it influence the present? So, um, I think that we we must persist. Um, but we have responsibility for how we do our research and what claims we make. Um, And we have a responsibility to, um uh, you know, acknowledge, um, people acknowledge the sources say [00:45:00] when we don't have them say when we're making up or when we're speculating, we'll be clear about it. Um, and, uh um, or say, this is the approach that we're taking that you want to blur things. So it could be this. It could be that, Um, but as long as we are explicit about it, um, but I think we should not be deterred because, um, a family member or an ex partner or, um, the government or, um, an institution doesn't want [00:45:30] us to tell about something. I think we should just continue, you know, within, um uh you know, as long as we proceed with a good angle or with a with responsibility, let's say, what about in the situation where, um, say there's an anthology of gay writing, but yet in a state of an author doesn't want writing in the anthology because it's a gay anthology. [00:46:00] Do you have any thoughts on on that kind of thing? Where just, I suppose the context of where you're publishing stuff and how you're publishing stuff, it's highlighting this one particular aspect. If the person is gay and they've written gay stuff and it fits in the role of you know what your gay anthology is, then it should be. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I think, um um I mean, just from just from my background, Um, I think it is important to be visible. Um, [00:46:30] and if an estate says, Oh, we don't want this writing to be in there even though the person was gay, Uh, I, I would wonder What are the reasons? What are the reasons for not wanting that to be included. Um, is there something we need to take into account? Um, but if it's merely they don't want people to know this person was gay, Um, then they put it in. I suppose it gets harder when it's possibly [00:47:00] just speculation that, uh, that they gay, I guess again we can come back to Well, what's what about the speculation that they're straight. So it is. Um it is often a speculation that the people are straight or it's often an assumption that the people are straight. And then it's a, um, injunction that they're straight when they may not be. So you know, as I said before, I think we have the right to say, um well, I wonder, [00:47:30] and I challenge the assumption that the person is immediately assumed to be straight. Have you had blocks from, say, institutions or other organisations on publishing material? Um not no, not, uh or I've, um we had the grant, as I said to do do research. And then we found a publisher and published a book. Um, my own book book published myself. [00:48:00] Um, so no, there was no block and my current research. Um, I haven't experience to block, um, other than what I've mentioned with individuals not wanting to contribute. Um, but from an institution? No, just the normal rules around. Um, I was wanting to access some, um, records from, um, mental institutions. And there are time limits on them. So I can't unless [00:48:30] I get, um, um, a family member to say, yes, that those records can be released. So I think that that's that's what I've encountered so far. What about in terms of you mentioned that outfront was self published? Would you consider that a block that you couldn't find a publisher, or was that purposely? You wanted to self publish something purposely. I did it because I didn't want to have to amend anything. I wanted to write what I wanted to write. And, [00:49:00] um, I just saw that as most efficient. Did you think that you would have to amend stuff if you went through? I thought it might be a problem. Uh, true. Yeah. So I suppose I self selected out. In a way, um, I thought I thought, um, it it's kind of hard to get published anyway, and I didn't want to be trapped into, um, having to fit into some publisher's view of what it should look like and how it should be. I just want a total control. Um, actually, [00:49:30] since you mentioned it, I do recall when we published Park and Hume, Um, we, um we're talking with a distributor and, um, through through our publisher, and our title was Parker and Hume a lesbian view because we wanted to be explicit about the angle we were coming from. So, you know, as I said before to be totally upfront. And, um, the distributor said, I don't think that will go because, you know, bookshops won't hold a book like that with the [00:50:00] word lesbian on it. And, um, we said, Well, no, that's what we want to call it. And would you rather that we had, Let's say L ESB IAN. Maybe we should put a what you really want is NOTH. I NGA nothing view. That's what that do. Um, so we sort of played with it for a bit and said, No, it was a lesbian view, and if if they didn't want, if if that would be a problem, then we'd go somewhere else. So we had to sort of be insistent there. And it [00:50:30] did go out as a lesbian view. And it did sell. So it was just rubbish. And what year was that? Yeah, I think I think it was first published. This I can't recall. So you have to look it up. It could be 1991 and 1993. I'm not exactly sure which. I always get them mixed up because it was it was published again in the United States. Um, I think in 1995 just with a pre preface, different preface. Still an attitude in the 19 nineties that having lesbian [00:51:00] on the front cover, which is just nonsense. I mean, every time we allow that kind of censorship to happen, then we're just diminishing ourselves, and we just you know, we'll never get there, so we just keep going. Can you talk a wee bit about the outfront publication? How did that come about? Um, I had quite a lot of, um, material. Um, I'd collected lesbian magazines, um, published here, um, [00:51:30] cartoons by women. Sharon Olson is the name I forgot before, Um, so she was a, um an artist. Um, and she did a lot of illustrations in early broadsheet magazine, Um, and depictions of lesbians and lesbians kissing and, um, which was really fantastic because that time early seventies, there was not much material available. And, of course, there's not, you know, no access to Internet, and, um, the mass communications we have now. So, um, those those, um, resources [00:52:00] were really, um, for me anyway. Really important. Um, there were articles in university magazines about, you know, gay and lesbian, And, um, at that time And, of course, the whole gay liberation movement was going at the time, so things were starting to to come out, but, um, so I had, um, in my own private in boxes in my house, There were magazines, um, newspaper articles, clippings, um, that I'd taken from events I'd been at or [00:52:30] heard about. And, um, I thought there there's a lot of information here. Um uh, records of, um, events, um, protests, um, feminist, lesbian, uh, all all sorts of stuff. And, um, I thought it was not accessible, and, um, one of the magazines was for lesbians only. So it was not You couldn't really, you know, take that and copy it and give it around. Um, but within that magazine was a Circle magazine, which was published in New Zealand. [00:53:00] Um, and, uh, I want I wanted to make that information more available and more accessible to more people. Um, so that was my initial motivation. Um, and and it was kind of like getting it in a form that would be, um, last longer. So I use those sources as inputs to to it in my own knowledge and information supplemented with, um, some newspaper reports, um, which I had collected as well. Um, [00:53:30] and you know, other research I've done. So do you find that it happens a lot in the queer community where it is individuals doing pockets of research or archiving I? I think people accumulate stuff. Um, just generally, Anyway, um, in New Zealand, there was until the seventies. A lot of, um um focus, I suppose, on political history. Um, [00:54:00] not news, not our own. Not at the history of this country. Um, And but since then, there's been an explosion. As you can see in the bookshops, if you go to the airport, you see stuff on New Zealand heaps of stuff. Um, and that's been kind of like a conscious effort by historians. Um, the Dictionary of New Zealand biography, for example, which is a great resource on, um, you know, masses of individuals. So it's biographies of individuals who lived in this country and who, [00:54:30] you know, did stuff did things across a range of, um, occupation, social class, um, gender and so on and race. And, um, so, uh, New Zealand history history focused on what? The events of this country and the people in this land, Um, has exploded, um, over the last 2030 years, I suppose, and I think the same is happening for us. And, [00:55:00] um, we we've got more resources now, So, you know, the the website that you're involved with, Um, we can bring in stuff from other parts of the world as well. Um, we've got access to more books. Um, and it's we we need to produce our own materials. Um, from what? What we've learned about our own communities here. So and I think it's quite important for each, um, place to do its own work and its own history. So we [00:55:30] can't assume that how things were in England or in Australia or in the US or in China is the same as how things are here. Um, So, um, so when you were putting together the outfront book, was it really important to go back to the original sources? So, like, you were saying you had newspaper clippings, you had magazines? Was all of this information that you were gathering like from firsthand sources? Of course, people will question that and say, um, what's a firsthand source, [00:56:00] Um or what's a, you know, primary source? Um, and we'll say, Well, that's also a construct because someone wrote a newspaper article, Um, someone took a picture, but they pictured this and they didn't picture the rest of the of the event. They just focused on one little thing. Um, so it's kind of a distorted, um, they are filtered, filtered sources regardless, but, um, they were at least, [00:56:30] um, records contemporaneous records of the events. And so that's a little bit closer. So yeah, I think that is quite important. Um, I found it important to, um, read, um, you know, the the account of a particular demonstration in Wellington, say and remember Oh, I was there. Oh, and that happened as well. Um oh, yes, that did happen. Um, [00:57:00] So, um, I think, you know, while you could question you can question everything, but you can. I mean, the fact is that something did happen. People did go and pick it outside. Um, you know, a bar that excluded kicked out gays and lesbians when they thought they saw us. Um And so we we picketed outside a particular bar and there was a picture of people there, And so, yes, that did happen. It did happen on that day, and that's what it was [00:57:30] about. Um, may not have been what it was all about, but that's at least some, You know, you're getting closer. Um, so yeah, it is to me, it is quite important. It's, um, good, too, if we can talk to people who were there at the time. Um, but I You just have to weigh up the different, um, the different angles on that same event, Um, and then come up with some You You always come up with some construct about it on the basis of what you've [00:58:00] what you've read and what you've talked about. Um, and it will be different from the people who were there on the day. So, um, but there are some things that you can say. Yeah, I. I don't think it's all totally open and totally, um, you know, malleable and fluid. I don't subscribe to that. When was the book produced? My booklet? Um, might have been 1993 at that time. Was it easy [00:58:30] to self publish? Um, well, I did it on my credit card, so but, um, I had no problem finding someone who would print it. Um, I, uh, had assistance from Jenny Rankin in Auckland who, um, allowed me to use her photo shop, uh, to lay it out. And, uh, she laid it out, actually, and and worked with me on it. And she [00:59:00] designed, um, uh designed it. So, um, so So that was really good to be able to, you know, have that, um, assistance And really pleased for it as well. And, uh, and then I just found a place that would print it, and that's it to publish. It's quite easy. You just, um you put the little copyright sign on your work, and you get an ISBN. Number So, um, you just get one allocated, and then you print put that [00:59:30] in. So in that respect, it was not as hard as I thought it would be. It's helped by, um I think around that time, Uh, Kay Dunford, who was an English lecturer at Auckland University, um, was going around and trying to was running courses to encourage, um, writing, uh, by people and to self publish. And I remember her saying how easy it was to actually self publish. And, um, so things like that help me, um, and people, women like that help me, [01:00:00] um, to to just do it. And how was it received in the community? Um, people. It was, uh I found it really great because people said it was really great to have to have, um, a resource like that. So that was worth it to me. We haven't talked about, um, cultural considerations, and I'm coming to it from a very kind of, um you know, here I am white male. Um, and I'm wondering, do you have any tips [01:00:30] or guidance in terms of researching other cultures? Well, we come to other cultures from our own culture. And so we've got the overlay. And in this country, we've got the overlay of our colonial past as well and our responsibilities there. Um and, uh, I truly think that, um each culture how whether it's defined by race or by, um, our sexuality or whatever, We, [01:01:00] um we do our own histories. Um, if someone else does our history, they come from the angle and it's a different. It will always be a different angle. So I will have a white female, um, Croatian background, um, view of, um, Maori history. And, uh, I can only come at it from that angle. Um, I? I might have a opinion, um, or a [01:01:30] stance on it. Um, but that's not the same as, um, um, Maori women doing their own history or Maori men doing their own histories histories, I should say, um, so, yeah, I think we can, um we just need to acknowledge, um, where we're coming from and therefore what our limitations are and what our angles will be. So one example I'm thinking of is on the Pride NZ website, where we've got [01:02:00] youth talking to youth and listening and getting really good responses. Now, if I was to try and interview, uh, somebody youthful. Um, I would get completely different responses. And I'm just wondering, have you have you encountered that same thing in terms of the kind of the queer or gender context? Um, well, what comes to mind is, um I am not transgender. And, um, I started my research on [01:02:30] the person I'm researching, uh, from a point of view, with a lesbian and or could they be seen to be lesbian? Or how do you interpret that life, You know, their life. And so a transgender historian will look at the case and see it in a different light. And I can't see that because I haven't had that experience. I might be able to imagine what it might be like, but I can't say that. Oh, yeah, I understand that. So I think, Yeah, that's something [01:03:00] I've sort of grappled with a bit. Um, I think, uh, you can only speak for yourself in your own experience, and, um, bring that to what? You You know, as I said, bring that to what you're looking at and acknowledge it, and therefore people can then make judgments on what you've said. They can say, Oh, well, he's older and interviewing a 1915 year old. So, [01:03:30] um, perhaps he's missed some things about what? The 15 year olds? You know what it is to be a 15 year old at this point in time. So if you were another 15 year old, you might have asked different questions, or you might, um, focus on different things. So, yeah, I think you know, as I said, we are. We're always working within constraints. And, you know, the constraints of our own lives basically, and our own experience and background knowledge. So, yeah, it will be different. So before [01:04:00] doing kind of any kind of research, Are you saying that you really do need to know your own where you stand, who you are? I think so. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Because how can you know where you're treating you? You don't know what you're you're cheating on E. Even then we probably don't know. But, um, at least we've got a, you know, a start. Yeah. So, um, we can look at, um, say colonial [01:04:30] past from the angle of a white who's living in this country and say something about it, and that's the angle you're coming from. But if I did that, I wouldn't be coming from it from the point of view of, say, a Maori woman with an ancestry that goes back to confiscated lands or murdered relatives or, [01:05:00] um, you know, uh, some other kind of oppression and theft. And so, if II, I would have, you know, a different kind of attitude. Um, so that's not my experience. Um, in this country, I've got a different experience. So it's got to be different in terms of what I write, isn't it? So you have to acknowledge it. So I think yes, of course. We have to know [01:05:30] as much as we can, you know, about, um, we we've come to them and why we're doing it as well. Why are we doing the research that we're doing? Do you have any ideas for how to protect queer histories so they're not lost so that it's easier for somebody to find in future? Well, I think, um, digitization is one thing. So we've got access to the Internet, and, um, putting stuff on [01:06:00] Internet is really excellent, I think, um, because then it's available worldwide, and it's harder to get rid of, um, you can burn a collection. It's harder to get rid of, um, you know, something that lives on multiple servers across the world. So, um, I think that's one thing, And and I think, um, the other thing is just pro produce more. Um, um, proliferation proliferate channels, [01:06:30] um, works across all media across all kinds of the art. Um, t-shirts, uh, in in the past, people made you know, their T shirts with little slogans on them. Um, that, to me is part of history. Um, I'm thinking of, uh, this is a random association, but, um, in the Auckland Museum, I think there are Tongan war war clubs. And on those clubs are depicted events, um, that relate [01:07:00] to events, um, in, um, Captain Cook's journals. Um, so they can be verified or, you know, double Cross checked. Um, So you can see history in all sorts of artefacts in our buttons in our T shirts. And, um, our costumes, uh, and some of the artefacts that they are in leg ends, um, photograph albums with annotations, um, [01:07:30] little boxes made to depict, uh, certain things. Um And, um uh, so So I'm saying um, a proliferation of forms. Um, music, um, you know, a written book, which is a formal kind of history, Um, or a little booklet or, um, pictures, photographs, um, all sorts, um, that we proliferate and that we encourage more people to do more. Um, more research [01:08:00] and more writing and more productions, films, documentary, um, TV movie, all all kinds of stuff. Um, so the more we do, the more there is. Um and I think behind that, all of those things could be taken away as well. Um, so if we look at, like, the book burnings and Nazi Germany where they tried to get rid of all that, um, you know, wonderful material. Um uh, that, uh, underneath it all is a strong [01:08:30] and, um self-aware community or communities that, um, keep on going. So the more that we can say it's OK to be lesbian, it's OK to be gay. It's OK to be transgender. It's OK to um So we're queer. It's OK. And we will keep on doing it, and we'll keep on being it. Um, I think that's the underpinning of everything else. I guess. One of the things with, [01:09:00] for example, photographs is not only to have the photographs, but actually have them annotated with who's in them. I know. Do. Do you find that quite frustrating if you're looking back and you just seeing who are these people? You know, I look back at my own family photographs. And who are these people? So, Yes, it is. It is frustrating this. There's lots of photographs of people from, you know, like early settlers. And there's just photographs of them. You think Who is that [01:09:30] person? But there's nothing you can't tell. So yes. Yeah. And and I'm one of the, um um criminals who hasn't annotated photographs. Well, the thing that gets me about, um, some of those older photographs, especially things like, um, part of the Robert Gang Collection from from Masterton, where you've got people posing very close together and trying to work out the relationships between these people. You know, you look at the cover of mates and lovers. Yeah. [01:10:00] So, um yeah, two men sitting, you know, were quite close. So in one context, this is just a picture of two men in another context with queer eyes. Oh, perhaps there's something going on there. Can we talk for a minute about the, um the whole digitization of records. I think on the one hand, that gives us great, um, more easier access to information. [01:10:30] Um, at the same time, um, we could be limited by, um, you know how we're searching or how we're interacting with those records. You need to know what to search for. And, uh, sometimes it depends on how the records are stored and how you can access them, whether you need to use certain keywords or not. And therefore, you need to know what those keywords might be. Um, they may not be, um, keyword to the degree that we need for our purposes. Um, And so therefore, it might be harder, [01:11:00] in some respects to find the kinds of, um, information that would be of interest. Um, So I also, um, worry that, uh, in the digitization of, um, existing physical resources that those resources may be destroyed, or or, you know, they may be got rid of, because now people think Oh, they're digitised, so we don't need them anymore. Um, whereas I think, um, certainly for myself, it's quite exciting to see and to feel [01:11:30] the actual document with the actual signature that someone has actually touched or been, Um, you know, uh, been with, um And that you are now looking at that document that the person you're writing about or the people you're thinking about, um, that they were actually there. And, you know, with that piece of paper or that object, Um, and there's something different about it. I feel, um I think, um, the access that we have, the opportunities we [01:12:00] have with mass communications, uh, we should take advantage of, um and there are risks with it, But there's big advantages. So I guess one of the risks with, uh, the Internet and digitization is that if somebody searches on something and it doesn't come up in an online search, they might just assume that these things don't exist. Correct? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's a risk. Um, and so I think we just have to, you know, be more aware and make people aware that it's not the It's not the only way. And, [01:12:30] um, we've got to look even harder. Um, and look at other other place. Look in other places as well. Some of the things we didn't mention before when we were talking about physical resources Where, um, things like cemetery records, um, medical records, perhaps. I think maybe we mentioned I don't know, but, um, you know, birth births, deaths and marriages. Um, those records, um, they all give indicators and they give contacts. Other associates, um, or the parent, the, [01:13:00] um, the person who signed the marriage register. Or, um And then from there, you can build a network and perhaps find someone living who is who can add more or who has, Um, some artefacts. Um, So, yeah, there's lots of, um, other avenues that can be explored as well, but we shouldn't think just because we've done a search and nothing comes up, but there's nothing. And do you think one of the benefits of actually, uh, going to an organisation and saying, Hey, can you digitise this record? [01:13:30] You're actually, uh, not only helping your own research, but I guess you're actually making sure that they are digitising queer related material. Yes, that's a good point. Um, I think that would be a very good thing to do. Yeah. Could you just bullet point a few things if you had to leave somebody with some, you know, bullet point ideas about, um, how to achieve success in researching queer topics. What? What would they be? Oh, boy. [01:14:00] Uh um How to achieve success? Well, it depends. On what? What is your What's your goal? So what What do you mean by your success? Um, if you wanted to, um, um, make say something written. Let's assume you're doing some written history or of some kind. Um well, I think the first thing is, get clear what it is that you get clear who you are. [01:14:30] Number one. And what's your perspective? Where are you coming from? What are your What do you think your blind spots are? As much as you can tell, At least know what your what your motivations are. And why are you doing it, then? Who are you doing it about or what are the people who are the people you are doing this about or what's the event and what's your interest in it? Why you're doing it And then, um, kind of brainstorm. What is it? Where could there be? Um, um, [01:15:00] either commentary or evidence that this happened and how it happened. Um uh, to think widely across all the kinds of sources. So, you know, some of the ones I mentioned, like official sources. Um, so there's government, um, the justice area defence area. Um, if that's relevant, um, new new local media, uh, international media. Um, these days, [01:15:30] um, you know, on the internet are their depictions are their video clips are there, uh, movies are their recordings of various natures. Um, uh, the personal records, personal artefacts, Um, about which you could make conclusions or from which you could draw a bigger picture. Um, and know that, um, no history is complete, and there are multiple histories of of, uh, you know, a single [01:16:00] event and different people have different views. Different angles. Um, you know, I, I think probably the best thing is self awareness. And then, um, thinking widely as to where you could find, um, an artefact of whatever kind, whether it be recording something written, something created. Um uh, you know, a piece of jewellery which had a certain meaning, for example, or, [01:16:30] uh, a a bystander, someone who was involved at the time, Um, someone who was involved near the time. Someone who's written something about the event. Um um, uh, creative works about the event novel. Um, poetry, email, Um, all sorts. So I guess thinking widely and then, um, trying to draw those things together, talking with lots of people about it as [01:17:00] well.

IRN: 584
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/cos_jack_trolove.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003929
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089223
TITLE: Jack Trolove - Creating Our Stories
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Jack Trolove
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Auckland; Jack Trolove; Kazam Youth Hui (2011); Rainbow Youth; community; education; event management; organising; support; venues; volunteer; youth
DATE: 6 March 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Jack talks about organising a variety of community-based events, including Kazam! a national takatapui, queer and trans youth hui held in 2011.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So, Yeah, my name is Jack. And, um, I've, um Yeah, my background is Hm. Um, grew up in a small town in North Canterbury. Uh, it was brought up by my Nana and great Auntie, um, along with the rest of the family. So kind of big, intergenerational, rural upbringing. Um, and, um, I trained as a, um, as a painter as an artist. [00:00:30] So initially, my that was kind of, um, my world and, um, yeah, still have an art practise, but kind of, uh, that intersects now with lots of other sort of social justice related projects. Or, um, I think that some of the first organising I did was probably community arts projects. Um, working with, you know, various, uh, groups who experience being marginalised for whatever reason. Um, and using, um, kind of creative [00:01:00] languages or visual languages to challenge stigma and assumptions around some of that stuff. Um, and yeah, maybe some of the other organising was, um, you know, used to tie myself to choppers and things like that. The, um when the west coasts were getting logged. That was sort of probably my first big organising experience with, um, with some of those kind of campaigns. And, um yeah, and, um but yeah, I guess since then, [00:01:30] probably. Um yeah, just lots of, um, been involved with organising lots of, um and, um actually, a couple of years ago, um, worked with Madeleine McNamara to, um, create a We sort of did a show. And then, um, as well did organised a hoe for people from all over the country. Um, to come together for a weekend to kind of talk about how we use, um, creative [00:02:00] practise to, um, explore our relationships to colonisation. And, um, it was called whiteness, whiteness, creative disorders and hope so, Yeah, kind of looking lots at, um, responsibility. And but, you know, kind of yeah, through creative lens, blah, blah, blah, all that sort of stuff. So would you say a lot of the events that you've been a part of in organising have been more at the community end rather than at the kind of professional? Yeah. Yeah, [00:02:30] definitely. Yeah. And the the recent project that I worked on, um, which was the so that was, um, a a national youth for, um queer trans intersex MVPFF young people from all over the country um, and that was the first project that where I was able to come in and it was already there was already sort of funding to to run it. So it was really exciting because there was lots of scope. Yeah, and [00:03:00] then I didn't have to do all of that myself as well. Yeah, well, I'm wondering if we can have a look at maybe a couple of your different events that you've organised. Um, because I'm assuming that running a community driven event is quite different from something that somebody's paying you to organise. Could you tell me what, uh what What do you think? Some of the key principles of running, um, a community based event are, um I think the key thing is for me is you [00:03:30] know, you just got to be super passionate about about the project or about what you're wanting to do, because, um, it's so much work. Yeah, and and so, you know, for me, I really have to be invested in wanting that space. Yeah, um, one of the biggest lessons for me, um, through the stuff that I've organised has been thinking about, um actually kind of tailoring the sort of space that you want to work for, whatever it is that you're [00:04:00] doing. So, um, for example, the the that I talked about before, um, or the gathering the, um, white mess project that ended up being really huge. So we had people speakers. I think we had, like, 60 speakers from all over the country. It was amazing, Um, but and it was really great. But actually, at the end of the day, we didn't get what we really wanted out of it. Which was a kind of, um, you know, really, really [00:04:30] specific conversations around some of those problematic creative issues. Yeah, and, um, because it was so big, we ended up hosting this What I think was this really choice thing for people and was probably, you know, cool community development. Lots of really great stuff came out of it, and there was some really kind of, you know, good, volatile, dynamic stuff and conversation. But, um, but I But in the end, it wasn't. We didn't kind of get what what we wanted. Yeah, because [00:05:00] it was too big. And, you know, in the end, we probably what we should have done is or what we could do for a parallel thing would be to kind of just maybe invite the 10 people that we really want to pick their brains and and, you know, host the kind of get together and, um, bring some really exciting stuff in. So people want to be there and and look after that space. Really? Well, you know, So I guess one of the things that I've been learning is, um, you can, you know, you can kind of host [00:05:30] a gathering about anything. And no doubt there will be really awesome stuff come out of it. But it's so much work that to make it really worthwhile and to get the most out of it, it's really important to be really specific about why you're doing it and what your dream situation is to come out of it. Yeah, or what? Those What? What connections? You really, really want to be building? Yeah, those kind of questions, like right at the front of before you organise anything like, you know, um, what do you want out of it? Who? [00:06:00] Who are you aiming at? Are those kind of conversations, like, hard to kind of pin down Is it hard to work out why you're actually doing something? It depends. No, I don't think so. Because I think usually the only reason you would be organise something and invest that much sort of time and energy is if something that you really want. So, um, for me and all of my experiences, of all the projects that I've worked on, it's It's pretty much always been because there's something that I want to participate [00:06:30] in and it doesn't exist. So the only way to kind of get that happening is to create the space where yeah and I and I think that's one of the amazing things about being in A It is because it's small you. Actually, that happens a lot more like friends of mine overseas that I talk to that that's not always the case because there's something kind of closely enough related to what they're interested in that they can go along to or whatever, or it feels too huge to organise stuff. But I think you know, here it's quite amazing that that we organise whatever [00:07:00] we want to do. You know, it's great. Yeah, so looking back to whiteness, white mess What would you have done differently? I think that what we could have done is, um we probably had we managed to not get so excited about all of these amazing people coming together. Um, I think we could have literally just sat down and brainstormed exactly what we wanted [00:07:30] that space to be and then tried to work out the most. I know it sounds funny, but almost the most limited way of doing that. You know what? What are the least components that we need to bring together And what do we want the feel of the space to be? What do we want? Um, yeah, I guess. What kind of atmosphere do we want to create and being really realistic about, um, the kind of numbers around that. So we actually wanted really in-depth discussion and space that that there could be lots of challenge, and, [00:08:00] um, but also that wouldn't kind of get out of control, and I think to be really realistic about that, that's actually a small group. It's a kind of small group discussion, not a big national gathering with lots of speakers, so Yeah, but you know that? That said, having done that there was all of this kind of amazing stuff that came out of that, and and the feedback was that people had been really hanging out for that kind of space. So, you know, perhaps we could have done a really kind of small [00:08:30] work shopping thing and then, um and then just had a public forum for a day and got some really amazing speakers in or something. Yeah. Why did you refer to saying you wanted to kind of maybe reduce it down to the smallest thing that you could do? Yeah. OK, so I think it's because, um what I'm realising I I have a lot of experience of doing is feeling like, um and I guess maybe it's some of that sort of social conscience stuff [00:09:00] of of, um, wanting to do something good or beneficial or whatever and ending up kind of just making huge jobs for yourself for no real reason other than, you know, it's really good that people are talking about this stuff. So I guess, um, yeah, I guess I'm just talking about trying to be a little bit more strategic about, um yeah, about where I put my energy and and and the kind of form that [00:09:30] you're looking to create, Not just not just content, not just themes. Um, yeah, I guess I'm I'm getting less interested in kind of really huge. Um, I'm less interested in kind of lots of speakers, speaking about lots of stuff and really vague question and answers afterwards and much more interested in kind of, um, I guess more intimate, kind of in depth dialogue that I feel like [00:10:00] can then be useful for people you know, or that we can kind of create tools out of to achieve what we want to achieve. Yeah, you've mentioned a number of times. Um, Spaces. And, um, I'm wondering if you can talk to me About what? What do you mean by space? When you create a space, What? What does that mean for you? I guess it's about, um, yeah, about creating a situation that's different to kind of everyday life, Um, and the [00:10:30] yeah, and the kind of ritualised way that we do that. So it's, um it's not just about getting people in a room together. It's about thinking about the dynamics about, um how? Yeah, I guess it's I don't know atmosphere, all of that kind of stuff. Like how, How literally. There's a place to kind of commune together about something, um, and or to work together or whatever it is. And [00:11:00] does that kind of get what you're getting at or not so much? No. Absolutely. I I'm interested in that idea and also the physical space, how and how you actually bring people together and working out the right space. Um, but also the space in terms of people's clear thinking, a safe space in terms of, you know, if people can say stuff in that environment. Um, I think in terms of physical space, that's often just because [00:11:30] most of the projects I've worked on there's not actually been any funding or next to no funding. So it's just been lots about finding a room that we can fit the amount of people and that we can fit in and, you know, making sure that there's a kitchen near enough so we can cater or whatever. And sometimes that's been just, you know, bringing a barbecue inside or doing lots of baking. Or, you know, it's kind of yeah, I think it's quite exciting. The ways that you can feed lots of people. [00:12:00] Um, but maybe, actually, maybe if we talk about the youth, Um, So the physical space that we used there was, um, a place called Carry Park, which is a, um it's actually a big Christian camp out in Henderson Valley just out of Auckland. Um, we had about 200 young people there for four days and nights. Um, so it was kind of it was quite interesting using that space, too, because it was, [00:12:30] um, you know, there was kind of lots of, um, Bible phrases and stuff all over the walls and, you know, like, spatially it was quite interesting to kind of interact in that environment, and it was really cool. It was really interesting discussions because because the was totally you run and youth lead. Um, all the decisions, big decisions, basically were made by the young people. And, um, so there was really interesting cold debate around what to do about that, you know, because obviously there's lots of kind of, um, lots of those young [00:13:00] people did identify as Christian, and so maybe that worked for them. And then there was lots that that was really triggering for them. And, um, you know me included. I was like, Ah, really wanting to make it. You know, obviously you have positivity around that stuff, but also about all the other kind of faiths that weren't represented there. And, um, so, yeah, there was a really cool conversation around. You know? Do we cover them up and put put some other posters up? Or do we, um, just add some, you know, add some phrases from, [00:13:30] um, you know, the Koran and, you know, buddhist texts and all these kind of other things to or or random non denominational comments on spirituality. Or, you know, um, and it was really interesting in the end that the young people were like, No, don't cover them up. That's that's, you know, And the reason reason for doing that was that, um they felt that the the space was, you know, physically [00:14:00] the house was, um, a Christian space and that it would be disrespectful to the people whose house that was to Yeah. So I thought it was really interesting. And, you know, that was a really cool learning for me. Yeah. Hm. The physical space out there was amazing because it was, you know, all surrounded by native Bush and had a really cool kitchen and lots of kind of little cabin rooms and things like that, which worked really well about 15 young people per room. But, um, it [00:14:30] was we ended up getting that space in the end because we had so little time to, um you know, But when I came on board, the had to happen within six months, and so that was That's massive, I mean, in, you know, in an alternative situation that wouldn't be such a big deal. But when you're running a youth run, you've led, which means literally hosting workshops with young people all over the country to find out how they want to do it, what they want to do, all of that kind of stuff, that kind of that [00:15:00] the super high engagement takes a lot of time and then working with young people who have all these phenomenal skills and ideas and, you know, amazing stuff. Um, but, uh, just not, you know, they just they just organise things differently and that the level of resource is really different. They don't necessarily have cars or jobs or or phones that they can use or, you know, all of that sort of stuff. So the the the kind of [00:15:30] the expectation of what happens in that time expands and the resources to do it. So you know that I guess that was a really big challenge there, But, um, also, what it meant was that by the time I'd come on board and and got to looking for a venue, most of the, um, local that were big enough were booked And that all of them, um and so that was kind of, you know, initially it felt like a real shame because it was I think it's so, you know, it's so powerful that all being [00:16:00] in a room together and sleeping under one roof And you know, all of the kind of stuff that goes on with when when people are held together in that way is really different. And so I was kind of sad that we were getting this other site initially, but, um but yeah, in the end, it actually worked really, really well, and it just had a whole lot of other kind of positives that I hadn't foreseen. Yeah, and and we still managed to. Well, we, um [00:16:30] uh, people like Elizabeth worked with us to, um, to make the space work in terms of and, um basic and all of that kind of stuff, so we still could hold the space properly, but yeah, it just wasn't a it was a a huge gym and a whole lot of cabins. Yeah, I'm wondering if we can just rewind and and basically take me through the whole process [00:17:00] of, um, you coming on board with Rainbow Youth and and travelling around the country and and eliciting those kind of responses from youth. Can you take me through how that all kind of happened? Um, when I came on board, there was, um, the board who so Rainbow Youth is a youth run youth led organisation, and all of the, um, board, the governance is is totally youth governance. So from there, some, um, [00:17:30] uh, non youth supporters and mentors as part of that board. But, um, the so Yeah, everybody there is under 27 and, um, they their part of their focus was, um, was working out how to support the development of kind of national networks. Um, and because um, intersex communities around the country, Uh, [00:18:00] totally, financially not resourced. Super rich and in lots of other ways. But, um, not in terms of finances. So, um, lots of that kind of networking is really tricky. Um, and so they wanted to focus on being able to, um, yeah, host. Another national after out there, Um, and that rain you had committed to doing another one. And, um So when the dancing with the stars money came through that was able [00:18:30] to go towards kind of a national focus, Um, which was really exciting. So basically, um, the first step in that was to host this hoe. So when I came on board, uh, yeah, that's all that I knew that they wanted to do that. Um, but yeah, the real change for me was working in a youth led youth run model. Um, I worked in lots of kind of other inclusive models, particularly around mental health stuff in the past, but, um, and some disability [00:19:00] stuff, but this was, you know, different again. And, um, so the yeah, the challenge was working out how to genuinely, um, support a youth led youth run event when everybody wasn't in the same town or couldn't necessarily come together to organise stuff in the way that I, you know, in a linear way that I was thinking of. And so, um what what we did initially was, um, pulled together a, um, a youth [00:19:30] advisory crew. So that was that was based up here in Auckland. Um, and we met once every I think, two or three weeks. And it was just, um a crew of really staunch, awesome young people who who got on board with the vision and and and kind of basically, I just checked in with them every couple of weeks and, um was sort of like, This is where I'm thinking of going with it. This is how I'm doing it. And they would, [00:20:00] you know, pull it apart or go. Yeah, awesome. Or we'd kind of revisit stuff. So, yeah, just so they were driving the direction, but not having to do the leg work. When you say youth, what kind of age? Um, so anybody under 27? Yeah. So between whatever age and 27 I think the youngest person that we ended up having at the was 10. Yeah, um, with a parent and then 13 year old on their own. [00:20:30] Yeah, so? And in terms of the advisory group, what kind of age range? Um, they were probably most of them would be early twenties. I'd say some a little bit later. Twenties? Yeah. And can you describe some of the ideas that you pitched to them That kind of flew? And some that kind of Yeah. So basically, when we were, um, developing out the of how we wanted to work and I guess what the have, how we support [00:21:00] awesome behaviour, you know, or interaction and communication and basically, how our A a thing that we used to deal with stuff when it goes wrong as well, you know. So, um, so we created a and, um that had I think we had about 15 kind of points of which were really sort of strength based. So it was around things like, um [00:21:30] uh, using language that doesn't assume anything about anybody's, you know, gender, family, blah, blah, blah. All of that kind of stuff. Um, using language that makes us feel awesome. Not stink. Um, really, really kind of simple things, but they were all, um, key points that if if stuff went wrong, we could go back to, you know, So the young people could kind of go, Hey, we need to have a talk about that. [00:22:00] This doesn't work with, you know, how does how does what had just happened fit in with the language that we're committed to using with each other and, you know, making more space, not less space and all of that sort of stuff. So it was basically just creating a tool, Um, for the young people to use to kind of, Yeah, keep the environment working. And and, you know, I think safe is a really weird term, but, um, to keep it good, it just ain't even weirder too. [00:22:30] Yeah, So that kind of discussion that happened right at the outset in terms of that, that probably happened as we went through. You know, I was just trying to think of an example of one of the things that a workshop with that advisory crew. Um and I mean, they would have been awesome conversations to record, actually, you know, um, because yeah, it was great. It was It was really cool how we kind of ended up using lots of the, um, [00:23:00] the tools that we were developing for the in order to even have those conversations and work out how we have them. And yeah, so it was interesting. Can you remember anything else from that list of things that that that they kind of came up with? Or did you have a predefined list that you went in with saying What about this? This and this guys, or did they come up with all those 15 just by themselves? Well, I encourage people to come up with stuff and, you know, just flip through an email with a couple of ideas [00:23:30] or Facebook or just call or whatever, but actually, everybody was really busy. So in the end, it didn't really happen. So I just kind of hashed out what I thought, you know, You know, sometimes if you've got something to start with, you can butcher it and it's good. You just get going. So, um yes. So I just came up with, you know, 10 or 15 to start with, and then, um, everybody just got involved, and we reworked them from meeting with the advisory group on a on a semi regular basis. What? How How did it progress [00:24:00] from that? Um, Well, because there was so little time. Um, it just had to get going. We just had to get going. So basically, um, we set up the all the young people set themselves up as an advisory crew. And then, um, and then there was literally practicalities of kind of booking spaces, stuff like that, um, starting to get the word out about what we were doing. And, um and then, yeah, it was literally just kind of, um, bringing up or skyping [00:24:30] or facebooking or whatever through the various networks to connect with, um who basically, whoever I could connect with all over the country, particularly the the kind of bigger groups where there's all the slightly more formal groups. So places like, um uh, Waikato, Wellington Um, Christchurch, Dunedin, um, and then other smaller places or not smaller places, but places where there's smaller kind of groups. Um, [00:25:00] so basically, just kind of getting the word out through all of our networks and through everybody's networks that, um and and once the young people heard that there was going to be a who they were totally behind it. and excited. And so it was really, really choice. Um, but then also, you know, huge issues around fundraise to get people to come. And, um luckily, that, um, from the with the last of the dancing with the stars money, that was enough to kind of rent the venue and and host the space. [00:25:30] And we could support some people with flights and things like that. But, um, yeah, lots of you know, there was, uh, you know, a young woman selling homemade fudge in Dunedin to make money to come up and stuff like that. It was really choice and and, you know, and there was in Christchurch, there was, um after the earthquake, there was, um, some funding that came up for some of those young people. So they were able to use some of that and things like that, but yeah. [00:26:00] So the next stage was, um, basically connecting with everybody and trying to make times that I could go and meet when the youth groups were happening or whatever to let them know. So, basically, it was like, Hey, we we're wanting to host this, and, um and where we're at is that, um there's We've got a really beautiful venue and, um, the the space and everything's good to go, But, um, yeah, I kind of tried to describe it like, um, you know, and this is really cheesy, but, [00:26:30] um, but, like, you know, we're baking some luscious big queer cake youth cake, and, um and so we've got the tin, and but, you know, we need everybody to come up with all the ingredients. Um, so basically, it's it's your space. Your time. What do you want to do? And and so we did really cool kind of visualisation exercises around. Um, you know, if there was all the kind of money resource, everything in the world, [00:27:00] what you know, And you got to hang out with two other 200 other young people, Um, you know, similar to yourself for four days. What would you love to do? As you can imagine, there are some pretty funny answers. Um, which was cool and, um, but yeah, so it was really great. It was like, um, you know, most people wanted Lady Gaga to perform, um, all sorts of things, but it was it was great, because [00:27:30] basically, um, when we kind of did part of the visualisation was sort of, you know, what would you love to learn? Like, what workshops would you like to do? Um, what experiences would you like to have? And, um And yeah, young people are awesome at just thinking so far outside any squares, you know, especially I think our communities. And, um And so, um, yeah, people came up with these fantastic dreams of of yeah, of workshops [00:28:00] that they'd love to do things they'd like to explore. And then, um, the next, the next thing we did in the in the kind of exercise was to go. OK, so here's our huge list of things, um, and try to match up skills with the different things. So it was really a choice. Some people would be like, I really love to, you know, do, um, dance workshops or, you know, explore gender, do some drag or do some whatever and and then inevitably, there'd be somebody else in that group or in the [00:28:30] group that I've been with the week before, who were like, who's actually a dance tutor or who, um, trying to think of the kind of we had some really amazing, um, amazing workshops and stuff, but so basically the what happened was, um all the dreaming happened and the kind of big wish list. And then the young people basically worked out ways to kind of match that list to their skills. So we did other kind of did exercises around, you know, trying to, [00:29:00] um, for people to kind of work out what their particular offerings are or what their skills are or, you know, and even people when people are really shy, there's really great ways that they can be contributing. So, um, yeah, it was just kind of like this amazing three month period of, um, supporting them to kind of weave this awesome. Their brick of, um, of yeah, of of the kind of skills and vision and dreams together, Um, [00:29:30] which I think, you know, ultimately is really empowering, because then they, you know, became more and more aware that it was actually they'd made this kind of perfect thing, you know, and God, it wasn't perfect, but it was amazing, chaotic and divine, you know? And, um and yeah, just that kind of great thing of realising that actually, we have all the resources that we need, you know, not not financial, but but to kind of, I guess, get a sense of that wealth, you know, in terms of all of [00:30:00] the other stuff was really cool. So how does that fit with the idea that, like, you were saying at the start, where to Know what you want to achieve out of a kind of an event in this situation, You Rainbow Youth has actually created a space like a three day window of time but didn't know how to fill it. What was Rainbow youth driving idea behind? I mean, why why did they create that space? [00:30:30] Um, so I'd say also, it wasn't about not knowing how to fill it. It's about being committed to the youth, the youth, which is about basically learning how to do that. Learning how to, um, uh, host space, facilitate the development of stuff, all of that kind of thing without actually, um, doing it or doing the content and that I guess that's just part of that kind of, [00:31:00] you know, youth development. Um, those ways of working. Yeah. Um, so but yeah, I guess their vision around doing that was that They wanted to, um, develop more of a national focus, Like realising that they're probably the most resourced, you know? And actually, financially, they're not very resourced at all, but, um, but, you know, they've got a There's a drop in centre, for example. And that's more than is in pretty [00:31:30] much anywhere else in the in the country. Aside from, um, uh, in Nelson, where that's the Q youth. They have a a little centre there, which is really cool. But, um uh, Rain youth also delivers education in schools. You know, that that we had the most staff out of, I mean, the only people with actually from Nelson. Actually, there's yeah, kind of part time stuff all over the show, but, yeah, Rainbow youth was basically the most resource. There was a director, administrator [00:32:00] and educator. Um 00, yeah. It's, um there was Sorry, I'm going back now, But, um, there was also with the dancing with the stars money, um, Rainbow youth, because that was the idea. That was everybody knew. Everyone knows that. We need to kind of do some, you know, build some really strong networks nationally in order to kind of be able to affect any big picture change. Um, and there's just so much stuff that needs to get that needs to happen. And there needs to be much more kind of momentum [00:32:30] behind that. And so those networks need to be really strong, even in order to kind of get, um, resourcing for all of the other groups around the country. Um, so with when the dancing with the stars, um, funding came through the the focus was to put that into kind of a national focus, basically. And so how rainbow Youth did that was to fund a national scoping project. Um, which is actually really interesting read. You can get it off the rainbow youth website, um, or the summary. You know, [00:33:00] um, and it, you know, it comes up with all of the stuff that, you know you would assume. Um but it's kind of at least now it's officially kind of backed up by research, and and so that's been a Really That's a cool tool, and it's now getting utilised a bit more. But, um, basically, yeah, what? What those researchers found out as well was that, um there was yeah, there was a mandate there for rainbow you to kind of hold that space to initiate that, um, national focus. So I guess the next step on that was [00:33:30] to basically create a space where young people from all over the country could come together and, um, yeah, strategize around how they wanted to do that. The other thing is, though, that because lots of young people who live in really isolated situations, they also just want to come together and hang out and, you know, do their own thing. And so, um, yeah, that was it was a kind of interesting part of it as well, you know, kind of having that, um I guess slightly more, um, or being aware of the kind of politics of how [00:34:00] you know some of the ways that change happens and how we need to be really strategic about that and then getting a whole lot of young people together who, of course, are just like, yeah, I want to party, you know, and like and then you know, and there's really kind of, um, cool young agitators in there who really, you know, there's, like, amazing kind of wild scope of of personalities and combinations and drives and and, um But it was Yeah. I mean, it was really illustrated the need [00:34:30] for, um, even just for social time, you know, time to just I mean, it was so emotional. Young people were kind of, you know, there were tears and, you know, and loveliness and the work. But, um, but it was a It was a really intensely emotional time, and it it kind of, um yeah, I think there was a real indicator of, um, kind of living in a heteronormative gender normative world when [00:35:00] there was that window. Outside of that, it was kind of like, um, you know, the young people didn't necessarily want to sit around and strategize how to change, you know, schools and get, you know, tackle the big issues. And, you know, it was kind of about connecting and, you know, and obviously that's the way all that stuff happens anyways through connections and building relationships. And, um, there was definitely relationships built. [00:35:30] Yeah, um, but one of the one of the other things that young people really wanted is they wanted to to hear from their heroes, and some of the kind of, you know, they they really craved their intergenerational, um, content. But, um but yeah, I wanted to To drive, being able to host that and all of that kind of stuff, which is, I think, really, really different from all of the other stuff that happens. And so, um, it would be really interesting to kind of that we were just so flat out that afterwards I haven't really had time to check [00:36:00] in with lots of the people that, um, some of those kind of elders that presented And even when we did that, actually, we did it in a really different way. So we used it was similar to the kind of picture kua format. I don't know if you So what happens with that is that, um, people present, So, um, it's really visual. So there's, um you can use PowerPoint and things. It's like 20 slides and 20 seconds per slide. Um, my maths is really bad, but that should add up to about six minutes. [00:36:30] And, um and so basically, um, we had these Phenomenal, Really? I mean, you know, some real powerhouse people speaking, you know, telling stories with young people and kind of addressing, you know, big issues, big kind of historic stuff. Um, some of the looking at, you know, one of the key focuses. Sorry, I'm going on the show, but, um, one of the things that the scoping project came up with was that, you know, obviously there's [00:37:00] a real issue around. I think, in the research, they called it diversity within diversity. So basically, um, how, um, queer and trans youth spaces kind of become homogenised like everything else. And so that the you know, um, diversity. Not so much around, um, sexuality, but specifically around, um, gender, race, ethnicity, Um, all sorts of stuff, you know, [00:37:30] um, disability, Um And so for me, I was really, Really that's that's kind of what really excited me about the project was that there was scope. There was, you know, kind of a mandate to really get into some of that stuff, um, around power and language and bodies. And, you know, um, so we one of the ways that, um, that we kind of started exploring some of that stuff, um, was through this. Yeah, we call it a think tank, and, [00:38:00] um and that was we had a whole pile of presenters who, Um which was the only kind of quote unquote non youth? Uh, part. Well, we had this kind of beautiful, intergenerational welcoming part. But then, aside from that, all of the workshops where you are you lead apart from this one who where they basically, um, said all the people that they really wanted to hear from. And, um, these people presented on all sorts of topics using that kind of [00:38:30] model of 20 slides. 20 seconds. So it was really fast and furious. And, um, you know, it's quite kind of, um, endearing thing. Somebody do that, you know, it's quite it's quite performative, and and it's quick. And so we'd have kind of, um I think we had sort of themed sections and three people per theme, um would present. And then, um, we'd all kind of clump into little think tanks and and just, you know, organically make sense of, you know, whatever came up, [00:39:00] What? Our thoughts were on that, um, so it was, you know, Yeah, quite dynamic. And it was a really interesting. Unfortunately, you know, time wise, it timed that too far down the track and the young people were kind of emotional and been up for two nights in a row and knackered. And, you know, So, um, we kind of, you know, I think we should have been more staunch about that. That was a space that we just all stayed at the entire time. But But it was We tried to just [00:39:30] keep it really organic. So people kind of coming in and out and things like that. And, you know, that was another cool learning that it's really important to have that time where everything's kind of really loose, and people can just follow their instincts around what they want to be doing. But I think it's also really important to kind of, um protect time. That is really precious, you know, and not to kind of define what that is and isn't. But, um, yeah, I felt like we had this Really, um, amazing. I had a really amazing gift, and the people that came [00:40:00] to present what they did and it would have been, would have been great to kind of throw all of the, you know, for everyone to throw all of the energy into kind of making that happen. But, you know, these are the learnings, and I still kind of think it was a It was a cool concept and lots of great stuff happened with it. And if that was going to happen again, you know, that would be a learning from that. Yeah. Sorry. I've gone so far off the off the track, I don't even know where we are. Now. It's all fascinating stuff. I'm wondering how [00:40:30] How was it for you to actually, um, be in a position where you enabling things to happen but not controlling things? It was, Yeah, it was totally inspiring. It was amazing. Um, and it was really challenging, you know, I'm a real control freak, And, um so I think that was beaten out of me in the last year. [00:41:00] Um, yeah. I mean, I'm aware of that, so I really, you know, try and catch myself, but, um, and it's not so much about being a control freak. It's just about, you know, getting so excited about it, you know, and wanting it to be all it can be and and just knowing that epic potential that's there and wanting to really kind of protect the room for that to happen and Um, yeah. So but wow, it's just, [00:41:30] you know, I just think God, everybody should spend a year working in a youth led youth run environment because it's just you just learn really radical new ways of, um, working. And it's it's Yeah. I mean, it's really challenging. I found it really, really challenging. But I also, um yeah, I learned heaps. I learned heaps about risk and and trust and empowerment. And, um, you know, I kind [00:42:00] of always thought that I worked from from I guess I in my head, I thought I've worked in lots of kind of, I don't know, even know how to talk about this stuff. Um, yeah, I don't know. I think there's some real cool, really interesting kind of cool parallels around sovereignty stuff, you know, in in relation to all sorts of groups of people. And, um, you know, as a white person, I'm really not used to working in those ways. [00:42:30] You know, I grew up pretty staunchly feminist, and, um and I guess of, you know, in whatever ways, kind of, uh, done lots of social justice work over the years and and tried to check myself lots on how I work and and but, you know, it's Yeah, it was a whole another. It was really a whole another layer and level of learning. And it's it's really cool, because now I'm kind of working [00:43:00] on this, um, project around youth mental health. And, um and, you know, there's some parallels with, um you know, um, consumer driven projects. And I'm really aware now, of of the kind of I guess the detail of where that is and isn't honourable. Yeah. So interesting stuff. Do Do you have any examples of of of that kind of challenge? I think [00:43:30] for me the biggest. Actually, the thing I learned most from was, uh, need to kind of throw all your energy into something and support support everything as best as you possibly can. Listen heaps and heaps and heaps and just respond rather than drive. But, um, but also to just support risk and support failure and support disaster, you know, and I know that it's just it's not necessarily usual way of working, but [00:44:00] it's kind of like, you know, being really aware that all of that, um all of that stuff is actually where the biggest learnings are. So if people are kind of supported and held and and can take care of each other through all of that stuff through taking huge risks and and getting that those awesome moments where it really works and also experiencing shit, not working together like and kind of disastrously not working is as long as as [00:44:30] long as all of those sort of support networks stay there, then people grow through that, you know? I mean, that's the best opportunity for learning and growth, and especially if there's time to kind of evaluate what's going on and work out strategize how to kind of move past that? Um, yeah, I guess I've just become a huge believer in in that so and not being risk averse and not avoiding things going wrong, really trying to support things, working well, but, um, [00:45:00] yeah, I don't know. Um, so what would be an example? Can you give me an example of that? It's really it's actually quite hard to put my finger on something because I just feel like the entire process was full of that at every single level. So lots of it's about having really big dreams and big visions, and I think that's the real strength that young people have. Um, but also, sometimes not having the experience to know what kind of resourcing you need to actually achieve that or what [00:45:30] kind of time you need to achieve that. Um, lots of things that I had no idea how they were going to happen. So, for example, or, you know Oh, actually, I can think of So sometimes young people getting really inspired about their workshop and, um, and on, you know, fudge making demonstrations, or like, um, um I think we had lesbian Erotica corner or we had, um um the, [00:46:00] um D minority crew were doing, um, hip hop dance classes. And, um, we had this kind of amazing range of I. And then there was, um, trans cartooning and all sorts of things. But like some of those workshops, for example, young people were really excited about really prepared for and bought all their stuff and and, you know, you go Oh, yeah. Who knows who's going to go to what workshop? There's so many different things on that people can go to and, you know, and in those moments [00:46:30] when you realise that nobody's going to go to somebody's workshop. And ah, I'm just like, trying not to cry and lose it and, you know, and and or rush in and like, make it OK, you know, do whatever and, um, forcing myself to, like, sit on my hands and not, you know, just trust the process, Trust that I had lots of really cool young facilitators there who were being conscious of watching the space and all of that sort of stuff. And, um [00:47:00] God, it was so inspiring, you know, just seeing when nothing happens, young people's empathy kicks in and kind of consciousness and everything, and then that actually never happened in a bad way. The only time it happened was there were one or two situations where nobody wanted to go to somebody's workshop. And then another crew of young people just went over and were like, Oh, hey, maybe we could incorporate this with what we're doing and blah, blah blah. And then there was this beautiful collaboration and a really empowering situation all around, [00:47:30] and that was actually amazing. So actually, that's a bad example, because that's when it worked. Um oh, yeah, it's funny. I can't I must be recalling with rose and glasses. I know that there were lots of situations where big dreams fell through. Um um, there was heaps and heaps of energy behind stuff. And, you know, for example, even the show night, the kind of big performance night. I was just like, how is this going to happen? Nothing has been set [00:48:00] up, you know, it's like, yes, you throw your lead. But like, my God, we need a sound system. We need this, that the other thing. And of course, everyone's on it, you know, just in their own goddamn time. And, um and, you know, by the end of you know OK, so I didn't start till 11 o'clock at night or whatever it was, and it wasn't that bad, but, um, but when it happened, it was awesome. You know, it was totally amazing. And and, um yeah, I guess really beautiful chaos, you know? So stuff [00:48:30] happens. There's Yeah, I guess. Lots of those kind of vulnerabilities seeing people recover from them when they've got people around them that they know or don't know. Um, yeah, it's really beautiful. And does that come back to the the the at the start, which gave that kind of list of, what, 15 things about how you actually treated people. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know how well that worked, like, and it [00:49:00] it was great to have it there. But I think that, um, the kind of environment that the young people created themselves and moderated themselves. We We did go back to that stuff when we needed to at various points, But, um, yeah, they they kind of we had the way we had it set up was that, um we had people called hens. So that was Mama hens or Papa hens or hens for the more gender fluid. And, [00:49:30] um and then they were a kind of youth, um, facilitator in one of in the cabins. So they were the people that everybody would kind of go to if they had stuff going on. And that was just to sort of make sure that everyone felt good and safe at night and all that sort of thing, and we have check in at at meal times. Um, so that was kind of the first sort of point of call. All the young people had a buddy system. So they had one person who was a buddy, and then the kind of next layer out from that. If we kind of thinking of a ripple, um, would be the in [00:50:00] the, um, in the and then and then the had a, um we sort of, um, used a bit of the, um, concept. Um, you know, not as well as we could. Good learning there. But, um, we had a a crew who were basically that that, um, core group that I spoke about earlier. So that was the, um, like, the kind of they started off as but lots of them were in the kind of youth advisory crew. But then, [00:50:30] um, invited all of you know, some of the other, um, leaders and facilitators from all around the country to kind of be part of that as well. So there was good representation, and, um and then So we did a a training day with them with all the kind of crew the day before, Or actually, everyone arrived that night. Um, yeah. So around around lots of that stuff, how we were going to look after space, how we were going to deal with conflict, tricky situations, um, you know, [00:51:00] self harming or whatever. It was all of that kind of full on stuff that that's present, you know, a trauma and, um, as well as all the good stuff. But how we kind of look after each other, basically. And so there were those sort of levels and layers of, um of support that people had. Um, and I think that the tour kind of crew used that, um that we developed a lot just in terms of kind of working with each other and peer supervision, supporting each other and things like that. We also had, um the next layer [00:51:30] out from that was, um uh I L, um a So they, um basically, all of the had, um uh, a non youth person who was there to support them. Basically. So some some of that, um, at had, um, maybe two to a kind of to care take. And basically, their whole project, while they were there, was just to check in with [00:52:00] them, make sure they were They were the sort of that backstop or that kind of mentoring relationship. And then and then we also had So, um, Tommy, Who's the executive director at Youth? Um, and Marie, Um who You know, awesome. Awesome person. Um and, um, a counsellor. So Manny and Tommy and myself were sort of, I guess, the final backstop, the four in the morning, banging on the door. There's a situation. [00:52:30] Um, yeah. So that kind of stuff. So I guess, um yeah. In terms of process, I think that's quite interesting, because it's quite unique. Um, that system that we developed for to basically support as much kind of autonomy and independence as we could, but also to make sure that there were just, um all those kind of layers of back up in community. So people felt really so the young people felt really held, and yeah, and and, like, they could [00:53:00] take risks. And like, there was good stuff that could happen. But but also that we care that we took care. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that the whole kind of atmosphere of the was like a trickle down effect? Basically coming from the, um, organising group down Or was it more a thing that was actually made up of the people from that that actually [00:53:30] attended? I think in terms of tone. Lots of the, um I think the crew really presented, like, I guess, energetically or in terms of how they were with each other in terms of the kind of the communication that they modelled. That was really important. And I think people really picked up on that. So, um, we really wanted to work with that idea of not having We didn't have any rules, and we didn't want to have any kind of didactic, um, [00:54:00] you know, disciplinary and all that stuff. It just totally doesn't work with that with, you know, with that philosophy and that way of working. So, um, is you know, the best thing you can do is actually be really conscious about, um, about modelling, really call positive, empowering, you know, nondiscriminatory behaviour, Um, and discriminatory, discriminating, you know, stuff that makes people feel shit, you know, not [00:54:30] doing that. Um, and and actually, actively making sure that, um, that that stuff doesn't happen. So I think, Yeah, I think most of that happened through through lots of that kind of, um Well, the dynamic and, um, just ways of working, being modelled. Yeah. Yeah. To be honest, it's kind of hard to say because, [00:55:00] you know, I think that I don't think that I had a day off for, like, 30 days before the and then it was, You know, we certainly didn't sleep much that week in the lead up. You know, it was just It was It was a really, really big mission, you know? And that was because of the time frame and because we genuinely did it in a youth led youth way. So it just means that instead of one phone call, it's like 15 texts, 12 [00:55:30] follow up phone calls. You know, like all these kind of layers of Yeah, which is which is cool. It's just the way that it has to be done, but yeah. So basically, by the time the actually came and the fact that we probably were getting two or three hours sleep a night, I'm probably not the best person to talk to, you know, um, the young people, you know, say amazing stuff about it, and I, you know, like anything, there was lots of really great stuff and lots of, you know, really good kind of learning areas, [00:56:00] but, um, yeah, I don't feel like I have a really good overview of how everything actually worked during the, you know, when you're just kind of so embedded in the detail that yeah, yeah, but you just mentioned, like, emails and texts and stuff. What? What What did you find was the best form of communication with all these people? Um, well, by the end of it, we're kind of I mean, you know, for [00:56:30] the next people that hosted a national, there's some really good systems. Um, which we refined afterwards. So, yeah, it was a total work in progress, you know? And, um Sam Shaw, who who kind of does that, you know, project managers stuff and does the admin for, um at Rainbow Youth is, um, you know, a genius when it comes to that kind of the system stuff. But even so just because we just had we're dealing with such huge numbers and kind of [00:57:00] yeah, such a kind of chaotic environment. It just, um there was really no good system rather than other than it was just all the relationship stuff. Knowing who was friends with who to call if you couldn't get hold of them. And who you know, being really conscious of all of that stuff of how people wanted to be contacted. So, um, because lots of young people, you know, there were issues around family or or their living situations that they needed to kind of be, [00:57:30] you know, out of such a problematic word. But, you know, they their privacy was really important. Um um, So, yeah, I guess it actually depended. It was different for everybody. I just made it really easy. Um, but Facebook Awesome. You know, Facebook? Definitely. Probably the best. Um, definitely. If you can just get somebody on the phone and talk to them. Awesome. But sometimes tricky. Yeah. So, um not Yeah, but tend to be with young [00:58:00] people, Not not landlines and usually not mobile calls, mostly texting or Facebook. And do you think, having gone around the country doing the face to face thing Was that an integral part in terms of of actually establishing those connections? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I just think, you know, Yeah, it's just it's relationships. It's face to face stuff. It's, um, you know, young people have to youth. Engagement is a [00:58:30] big deal, you know, like it's it's lots about um, there's no shortcuts, I guess, Is the thing. Yeah, So that, um it was really great that there was. I had that time to sort of race around the country and do that. There are places I couldn't get to so other people would go there. Um, we came up with a kind of workshop format which worked like that, and, um yeah, but it's lots about that. But I think now, um, things are in a really different place because lots of young people have made much kind [00:59:00] of deeper connections over the last year. Um, so it's sort of a step ahead now. It doesn't need to kind of that stuff, doesn't it Wouldn't need to happen in the same way, because now there's these networks that the young people have, which are functioning in whatever ways. So there was after after the which was halfway through the year, the next half of the year, we kind of focused on, um, hosting these kind of video video, like once a month where whoever wanted to come from whatever the of the regions would get together [00:59:30] and just have a big yarn for an hour about what the issues were what was going on? Um, just general kind of networking stuff, which was really awesome. Um, big issues there around accessibility. Um, so, you know, one of the other things that rain you trying to, um, do some work on at the moment is kind of, um, supporting development of a rural network. Um, and because, you know, still, there's a lot of Internet and things like that and lots of places and, oh, there's just so many [01:00:00] layers around accessibility in terms of kind of, you know, financial, physical, cultural. Um, you know, there's so many so many challenges around accessibility that, um that hopefully, you know, this kind of generation of young people are are going to get their teeth into much more. And, um, yeah, yep. If anyone has heaps of money, [01:00:30] send it their way because there's so many amazing things on the boil. And, um, there's so much stuff that's just good to go. But, um, it's yeah. I mean, it really is. I hate saying that that's an issue, but it's it really is a barrier, you know, like there's endless energy. There's endless genius ideas of of ways to develop this stuff. There's so much cool stuff happening around. Kind of trying to push, um, some change around education. And, [01:01:00] um but, yeah, it it actually just needs to be financially supported, that's what. Yeah, I reckon so. How do you think we can do that? How do you think that can happen? Um, so I'm just I'm just I guess I just need to be clear that I'm really, um I'm talking about Auckland at the moment because I'm here and that there's amazing, really important stuff happening all around the country. And there's lots of ways to slot into those kind of groups and ask, you know, I think the I think the best thing is wherever [01:01:30] people are around the country, you know, finding out who the who, the youth crews of youth, young people are in the area that are doing stuff and actually just making contact with them and asking how they want to be supported, you know? So if I know that Rainbow Youth has a really good database now, of, um what groups are we and things like that? So, um, if people wanted to kind of financially support groups locally, that would be a really cool way to do it and other other ways is literally like maybe um, supporting [01:02:00] groups by by offering to, um, do funding applications for them or, um, mentor them through funding applications, keeping an ear out. If you hear of funding that's going that could work for them. Just giving them a call or facebooking and saying, Hey, have you heard of this? Do you want any help writing an application for this or whatever? Um, stuff like that or, um, up here there's, um, up in Auckland, Um, outlining Rainbow Youth are working on this campaign really exciting campaign at the moment. [01:02:30] The WTF one, which will be, um, can I say it's the what the fuck campaign. It's really exciting. And it's like basically the idea behind it is, um, that lots of kind of big names will be making videos that are going to go viral. And so lots of that's already been shot. And it's, um, you know, the idea is like, What the fuck? I can't take my partner to the school ball. Um hey, my mom's marriage [01:03:00] isn't recognised. What the fuck? All of this kind of like kind of looking at, um, lots of the social justice issues related to, um, MVPFF intersex youth. Um, identities. And, um, but but from a really different place so similar to those kind of, um, the fuck hate campaign, um, and and that Yeah, it's a really different attitude. It's lots more about, um Hey, actually, what's going on? This is really bad. We've got [01:03:30] a right to this and I don't know, you know, this has got to get changed. Not that kind of. Please give us money. We'll do. We'll be really nice and we'll be good queers. And you know all of that sort of stuff. So it's a really different tack. So hopefully when that goes viral, that's basically creating opportunity for people to, um, donate online to, you know, to that campaign, which which will be supporting stuff like this. The idea is that basically, you know, you just set up a AP. So, um, you know, lots of young people I know [01:04:00] of are are donating, like, $2 a month from their account, you know, from their pocket money or whatever. Um, as well as all of the older people that have money, because what we've sort of noticed is actually the people that don't have money, who often are prepared to give it, which is a weird thing. And it'd be really cool to change that. Um, but yeah, but basically, whoever can just put in a regular donation and, um, I think that works on a couple of levels. It means that people feel kind of [01:04:30] engaged with what's going on. And, um uh are more invested in kind of going, Oh, I wonder what's happening with that. Or maybe that initiates them, doing their own stuff. Um, as well as it just means that, you know, lots of the really exciting stuff around. Young people can get financially supported. So maybe, I mean, that's one way people can contribute when that stuff happens. Thinking of funding. And I'm wondering, um, that kind of campaign where you're saying [01:05:00] you know, why the fuck is something not happening or where you're saying we want to create a space where a social space where people can come together and that's really important. But with a lot of organisations, that fun stuff, they need to see deliverables, they need to see outcomes. So how do you take those ideas and turn them into words that funders will say, I'll go for that. Do you have any ideas about that? [01:05:30] Um, I mean, I think in a dream world, you know, there would be you could partner with funders who kind of understood the process and the dynamics and the the that you're working with, basically, So you could actually say, Hey, look, this is the long term vision, and this is where we need to get to. The only way we're going to get there is through developing really, um, deep, meaningful relationships and networks. And so [01:06:00] it's gonna take longer, but it's gonna end. It's going to be relationship based, and that's how we're going to get there. So dream scenario. Otherwise, I think that it's, um, you know, in kind of smaller or one off situations. I think it's about being, um, you know, getting some help to write your funding applications and just working out how to strategically, like, basically just match whatever the funders are funding. Finding a way to, um, [01:06:30] you know, without being dishonest, work out what you're doing, how what you're doing actually lines up with whatever it is that they say that they're going to fund because I think one of the big things, particularly with young people, um and you know, queer and trans organising is that, um there's a lack of confidence, you know, like there's this kind of there's there's not that sense of entitlement that there is in other places which, um, kind of sucks because [01:07:00] it means that people are organising these really important events and community development, youth development stuff. But they just think it's their own thing, and they don't think that it's they deserve money for it or whatever. So, um, that's yeah, that's an issue, I guess it's like about, um, people. I know sometimes I can think of situations where young people have got together and sort of worked on funding stuff together and actually helped each other write it. And [01:07:30] and, you know, if you say I want to do this thing, I want to bring these people together to talk about this stuff because I think there's real problems around blah, blah, blah. And then, if you know, saying that out loud and brainstorming that with someone can help you work out other ways to say that which I mean, that's a really valid, really important thing to do, and you can get funding to do that sometimes. But it's just about, um [01:08:00] yeah, I guess building the confidence to know how to frame that, to know how to say it or to write it or whatever. And I guess, yeah, my recommendations with that is to get support like find people who have been getting funding and offer to make them dinner in exchange for reading your funding application and helping you out with it, you know? Yeah, in a funding application, Would there be words that you would use to a funder that you wouldn't use [01:08:30] to the group that you are applying funding for? Yeah, totally. Yeah, I think. And I think that's part of that thing of learning to kind of walk between worlds is is learning to shift your language to get what you, you know, to to be able to get stuff happening. You have to be strategic about how you say things, and and I don't think that that's about not having integrity. I think that that's about yeah, being strategic. So, um, yeah, I mean, I can think [01:09:00] of um, times I've had to kind of frame things in this kind of really gross charitable language, which I find really offensive and problematic. But I know that if I do it, I can get $300 towards this project which, um which I can guarantee is not going to have any of that flavour in it, you know? But it's Yeah. Yes. You mentioned the, um, workshop process just before, [01:09:30] and I'm just wondering, could you just outline for me what that was when you were going around or getting other people to go around the country? Yeah, that was I think I was talking about that a bit about that before it was, um, basically going around and and letting people know what the opportunity was, Um, getting them excited about it, Um, and And yeah, running exercises which, um, enabled them to kind of visualise how they how they wanted to take it and where they wanted to take it to. And, [01:10:00] um, and about getting that kind of alchemy of, of want and giving, or like, um, of yeah, them kind of coming up with what their biggest wildest dreams were, and then realising that they actually had lots of those skills to kind of manifest that. Yeah. So that's what most of those exercises were around. What about the situation in those, um, those workshops where you're walking [01:10:30] into a group, you've never met any of them before. And how do you win them over? How do How How do you make them want to be part of the thing that you're wanting to do? Um, I had this really, really weird experience of me feeling like my dad, like, feeling like a total dork. You know, like as in. That's one of his qualities. That was one of I remember that was, but it was kind of a real shock for me going Oh, my God. I'm elderly, you know, like I just, you know, kind of actually, [01:11:00] before doing that stuff more or less identifying as a young person, I guess, in lots of ways. And then, um well, not Yeah, I don't know. Maybe because I had a lot of older friends, I kind of always felt and then suddenly, being in these situations where I didn't understand the language or like it was just yeah, it was a total like lolloping geek in these environments, But, um, I think, I guess, yeah, I guess where I'm coming with it is, um I think it's just about authenticity. Yeah, about, um, not trying [01:11:30] to be anything that you're not and that people respond to that. Yeah. So, um uh, yeah, I guess it's just about, um yeah, being really straight up and upfront about who you are and why you're there. What? What your own kind of excitement is about the project, and, um, and where? Where you see the scope. But also, I guess it's actually about having really, really good facilitation skills [01:12:00] to actually be able to, um, you know, and I'm I'm still learning. I think that's a lifelong learning. But, um, I know that particularly actually with within the, um, community, youth communities that I was working with last year. There's some phenomenal facilitators, like all around the country, actually, and I've seen I've worked with young people in lots of different communities, and it is I mean, I've just never seen such amazing skills as I've seen within the kind of queer trends [01:12:30] Youth communities. Yeah, so that's that's amazing. Um, in terms of one of the kind of awesome resources I think that there is. That's one of them. So, um, but yeah. Um, yeah, I guess it's just about being super alert before you go in and conscious of all of that kind of holding space, facilitating opening up enough room, um, and putting enough energy out there that that people can kind of pick up [01:13:00] and and want to run with what you're doing, but, um, but yeah, also not sort of setting up false expectations or kind of, um, yeah, it's interesting. Tell and Jay talking about limits without being limiting. Yeah. Um, so I guess working with that really sort of strength based model is a really great way to do that stuff because, um, it's building on. [01:13:30] I guess part of that facilitating is supporting the conversation to kind of come back to, you know, initially go really huge and really out there. And then it's not actually about bringing that down. It's about trying to find the, um the kind of the skills in the room and the talents and everything that that can match some of that stuff, which will look different to how it initially looked because probably. You know, um, Gaga and Nelson [01:14:00] Mandela can't turn up at the But, you know, we can have amazing performers and really powerful speakers, and, um, and the young people would realise that it was them. And I think that's the That's the magic. And when you when you can facilitate, um, those kind of realisations to happen, then just watching what the young people do with that is such a buzz, you know, it's really humbling. Yeah, it sounds like the was, uh, just the [01:14:30] most amazing experience for for a lot of people that were involved. And, uh, I'm kind of reflecting back on the experience I had with the Asia Pacific Art Games in in Wellington, which was just three or four days of really intense, amazing, exhilarating experiences. And I certainly noticed that I kind of have this kind of come down, period at the end of it. How do you, um I'm assuming I'm not the only person that has that kind of experience. [01:15:00] How how do you, uh, try and work with that kind of come down period after something like that? How do you How do you make it Not so bad Yeah, Great question. Um, do you mean for everybody else or for me? Well, maybe for you. Let's start with you first. And then, um I guess I guess my experience of that is, um, you know, as a practising artist, I got quite good [01:15:30] at that because I realised that, you know, I remember in my twenties after we did, um, doing I. I work with a really choice amazing group of people called the Girlies Project. And, um, we Yeah, we would do kind of, um, you know, all move into a We'd rent a big kind of empty warehouse, move in for four months or quit our jobs, and, um, go on the dole and, um, basically paint [01:16:00] full time. So we'd workshop during the day workshop, this kind of concept we want to work with and then go back to our studios, which we all built in the space and make work, be making work, and then, um, eat together at night and party, and you know, all of that sort of stuff. And then we we'd build our own gallery in the in the space. So we did that on Cooper Street. A couple of times and literally, like, build the floor and the walls And, um, it was amazing. So we'd kind of tailor make these spaces, um, for the work, and and we'd have workshops during the exhibition [01:16:30] and all of that sort of stuff, but so, I mean, that was just kind of epic, but actually amazing, you know, learning curve. And, um yeah, and we did some really cool stuff, and and, um, doing that was I think before that I'd kind of done, you know, shows. And you always felt a bit blue afterwards, but I wasn't sure I hadn't quite worked out what that was. But then because that was such a kind of big scale, because it was such a kind of big investment of everything. You know, we throw our whole Selves into it. And then afterwards, we just, you know, I remember one time just being, [01:17:00] you know, there was about four of us, and, um I mean, you know, we were hung over and stuff, but we're just like lying on the floor crying. I was thinking, This is weird. We didn't take any drugs. We're not coming down. What's going on? You know, like I couldn't. It was just so emotional. And it was the first time that I kind of went Oh, hold on. Maybe that's connected to, you know, and sort of consecutively since then for my whole life, always after a project. It's like, you know, the Post show blues that [01:17:30] hit and, um, you know, to lesser or greater degrees. But I think, yeah, I think the thing is, now for me is just being really aware that that's part of the process and to expect it and anticipate it. And, um yeah, And just so you know, I kind of now know that I have to take into account that there's, you know, I just need a little bit of time off or time out afterwards, um, and that I can just, [01:18:00] like, you know, go to daytime movies and have hot baths and have a cry if I need to. And you know, um, actually, after this last tour, we we, um and I went over to Sydney to this thing called Camp Betty, which was a a kind of, um, big, um uh I don't know. Was it, um sex, gender, politics, kind of slash party [01:18:30] thing and, um, you know, thinking, Oh, that'll be a really nice kind of regenerating, you know, basically go to participate in something and not have to lead or do any of that and not have to organise. And it would be, you know, the perfect kind of Homoeopathic antidote. And yeah, it totally wasn't epic. And then I got really sick, And then I had the flu, and, you know, um, yeah, so basically, just kind of sniffled my way through these, like, cold, horrible warehouses in Sydney, feeling sorry [01:19:00] for myself and wishing that I'd, like had the money to go stay at some flesh, but feeling guilty that that's what I wanted and it was really funny. And in the end, actually, I mean, there was a, um there was some kind of big, you know, food, not bombs, kind of thing or something for lunch. And I was just, like, on the verge of tears. And I was like, Don't worry, I'm going to take you down to a lovely restaurant. And I went to some busy little restaurant and had really flash handmade pasta, and I felt he was better, [01:19:30] so yeah, I think, um, it was Yeah, I think it's just like, yeah, you know, factoring in that, you just need to, um, give yourself some time out and cut yourself some slack. Yeah, that's yeah, we were saying that. And so with the participants, I mean, did you kind of cover that at some point over the course of the who you were? Yeah. Um, I think for most [01:20:00] of the, um, groups, young people, the the crew that they came up with, there was kind of debrief time on the bus on the way home and all that sort of stuff. And, you know, lots of the young people I know got really kind of did get a bit blue after it, you know, because it's such a kind of beautiful, rare experience to have that reflection. And, you know, and that's a work in progress, you know, particularly around accessibility stuff. But but it it was still some kind of reflection and, um, and togetherness. And I think that particularly [01:20:30] for young people going back to you know, who live in the middle of nowhere or or, you know, whatever their situation is, um, yeah, it was a big deal. But then again. Um, Facebook was just, like, hot for like, a month afterwards. Um, the young people created their own page for all of the people that had been at the and And, you know, people would be like, Oh, I feel so stink on my own. And then, you know, there'd be, like, 15 responses. Hey, you don't worry. Blah, blah, blah. Or do [01:21:00] you want to Skype or send me your number? And I'll text you? You know, this kind of really awesome, um, support network of of everybody, sort of being in the same boat a little bit around that stuff and and, yeah, I. I mean, I was when I got back and saw all of that, I was, like, all choked up because it was just really nice to see um, yeah, just that awesome initiative and support and and, you know, it actually doesn't matter if you feel like shit. If [01:21:30] everyone else is also feeling like shit and you're kind of hanging out bonding over that, you know, for a short period of time, that's OK. And it's only sad because he had such a beautiful thing. So it's sort of Yeah, I guess It's like that yummy kind of French melancholy or something. If you can experience it in that way instead of in the kind of Yeah, I think the only time it's a problem is when you don't anticipate it and then it's you know, then it sucks because you don't know what it is. And I have to say that after [01:22:00] the that that kind of feeling of blue there's there's an absolute, um, afterglow that certainly with the age of stuff that that in years to come I will look back and go. Well, that that was so cool. Yeah, yeah. And I'm assuming that will be the same in, in in in this situation as well. Yeah, yeah, I, I totally agree. I think that And one interesting thing is I have noticed, though, is around kind of burn out stuff is, um, you know, I think for myself a couple of years back, I really burnt out quite [01:22:30] badly for probably the second or third time anyway, getting better at that. But, um, what I noticed with that was that actually, I wasn't getting that after go afterwards, I was just like, knackered, you know, and I think that again. It's just a big issue around resourcing about trying to hold down a job and do your projects and have an art practise and maintain your relationships and all of that sort of stuff. And, um, yeah, I think that's kind of I think, you know, we were talking about kind of working strategically before, and I think that [01:23:00] for me, part of the stuff that I've learned around organising is, um, to learn to sometimes take on less and do it in a way that you can feel really great about doing it and where you're not having to take shortcuts that you're feeling crappy about and and so that afterwards you actually can you do have the time, resource and energy to actually do that, follow through and follow up. And, um, yeah, I kind of can't emphasise that enough, [01:23:30] you know, even with the Kazan project, it was like actually, by the end of it, you know, we were just so wrecked like we had just used every last drop of everything. Um, and I felt because of that, I wasn't able to kind of come up with all the you know, I wasn't able to be in all those places. I really felt like I needed to be to kind of, you know, thank people enough for being there or participating and all that sort of stuff. That it actually, yeah, I guess it wasn't good enough. So which [01:24:00] is fine. It's a learning. But it's like, uh, I think part of that thing about when you are organising stuff, you know? And I don't think of myself as an organiser, which is kind of weird having this conversation, because then I go, Oh, my God. Weird. I've been organising things for my whole life, but, um but I think part of one of the good things about admitting that that is what you do is that yeah, maybe some of the processes around that you're able to be more clear or be clearer and more strategic about. So, um, [01:24:30] if you don't have the resources and the people to to kind of do the whole process and do the follow up and look after yourself and each other at the end of it, maybe the more that the more you do these things, the more you become realistic about the amount of time and energy it takes to do them. And perhaps the more you can shape sizable, you know, appropriately sized projects that you can actually do and feel good about. Because if you don't feel good about it at the end, then it's just [01:25:00] like God. That was just like, two years of my life and all my money and energy and heart gone into it. And I'm just reaped. Yeah, so it's an issue.

IRN: 592
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/cos_julian_cook.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003928
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089222
TITLE: Julian Cook - Creating Our Stories
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Julian Cook
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; AROHA Festival; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Auckland; GABA Gold Charity Auction; Hero (Auckland); Julian Cook; Rainbow Youth; community; event management; organising; support; venues; volunteer
DATE: 5 March 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Julian talks about organising a variety of corporate and community-based events, including the GABA Gold Charity Auction, and the Hero and Aroha festivals.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So I'm wondering, could you just give me a very kind of broad brush stroke over the types of events that you've worked on? Let's see everything. Gosh, um, fashion, um, dance loads of dance parties, loads of contemporary music events, exhibitions, um, festivals like the festival or the hero festival. Um, the Ignite Youth Arts festival. Um, gosh, I mean, just everything from small [00:00:30] cabaret events to large concerts and parks for tens of thousands of people. Um, every kind of scale type of event imaginable. Really, I I've done it when you look at that very, very broad cross section of events. Are there things that are common to all of those events that make them successful? Yes. Organisation, I guess. Um a really, really thorough organisation, [00:01:00] uh, with people involved that really know what they're doing. And I guess events is is very much a people kind of business, and it it it's only as good as the people that are working on it. So if you've got good people around you, which is essential, um, then hopefully you'll produce a good event. And, um, you know, that extends in both directions and also extends to your audience And, um, how involved or how engaged your audience are. So really, I [00:01:30] mean, I guess it's all about people. Is there a difference between organising a gay or queer event and a mainstream event? Yes. Um, it's a programming difference. Essentially, And that you've I mean, whether you're organising a mainstream event or a gay specific event, you've got to know your audience. Um and so you really for an ex? And we're seeing more of this at the moment. We're seeing more, um, straight people being [00:02:00] contracted in to run large gay events. Um, I do have a bit of a problem with that and that they don't have the level of understanding of, um, gay life, gay culture and just the the minutia around that that a gay person would. And they don't. So they can't bring that level of knowledge and experience to programming the event. Um, and I think that that's where it's more important, is is when you're thinking about who [00:02:30] is this event for? What's the audience? Um what are we trying to achieve? Um, who are we going to bring in to help express themselves in this event? Um, what artists are we gonna work with? What Creatives? All of those. All of those questions are really informed, Um are really informed by a gay sensibility or a lesbian sensibility or whatever type of style of event it is. So, yeah, I do think it's important. Do you have an example of where [00:03:00] somebody who wasn't necessarily gay coming in and doing something in a festival that you just think this is just is not working? Yeah. I. I think that the big gay out has become like that in the last couple of years. Um, I know that there are a lot of gay people that are involved in working on that event, but, um, since a few years ago, Ben Barrett boys did a really, really good job in reinvigorating it and rein and and sort of remodelling it a little bit and [00:03:30] did an exceptionally good job of it. It has not changed since then. Same marketing, same virtually the same lineup, same layout, same everything. And I, I think. OK, well, there should be a bit of queer energy or queer thought going into these things that's going to somehow make them a little bit different or quirky or or make you think or challenge you. Uh, it's not happening in that event. I'd like to see that change next year. So what kind of things would you do? [00:04:00] I would have a consultation committee to start off with, um External from the organisation that I was working in to help feed into that with an event of that sort of that's got that that magnitude and that also is there to cater to that broad community. Um, I would get a consultation group together and work at it that way, but also, I'd be looking at how we can change things up each year and how we can make things different and how we can excite the audience. Um, I think that it's important [00:04:30] to treat your audience with the With that respect. Yeah, instead of just sort of spoon feeding them the stuff that you thought worked last year. Um, I think is a little bit lame. So the events that you've been involved with have they been events that have been driven by a specific company or organisation, or have you or have they been more organically come from the community? Both Really. [00:05:00] I mean, I've promoted my own events. Um, which have been driven completely by me and the people that I've been working with at the time. Um, or I've worked within the community in terms of something like, uh, the gold charity auction and dinner, which I did last year and which I was contracted in to, um, to deliver that for the gay Auckland Business Association. So both Really, What are the differences between the two kind of models? Uh, well, one, It's clearly your event. And, um [00:05:30] and so you can you can be a lot sort of freer in terms of, um in terms of what you're trying to achieve and how you want to deliver that, Um, And if you're being contracted in, well, clearly you you're being contracted in to deliver an event that they there are clear expectations around, um, around what that event will be being that you are the experienced event organiser. Within that, you would hope that the group that you were working with would, um, take on board [00:06:00] a lot of your suggestions and and listen to your thoughts on how they see the event going. Um, but they don't always Sometimes they have really clear and fixed ideas about what they want. And so that's what you deliver. Is it possible to talk about that last event that you worked on the the GABA Charitable Trust? Um, auction dinner. Basically, uh, the Gabba Charitable Trust is It's the It's the charitable arm of the gay Auckland Business Association, And, uh, it's the only sort [00:06:30] of the only trust nationwide. I think that, um, that fundraisers, in order to make money, to give back in terms of community grants on an annual basis, Uh, and they do that in the form of scholarships to students, Uh, and also just to to projects that that come forward There are things that, um, the pub charities or that creative New Zealand or the other funding agencies that are out there that wouldn't get a look in from those agencies that they can go [00:07:00] to the Gabba charitable Trust and apply. And they will be get the consideration that they deserve, whether it be the lesbians out west wanting a new sound system, um, so that they can improve the quality of their events. Well, the GABA charitable trust is something that they can come to and apply to for that. And I think that's the the reason why I really wanted to get involved in that event and why I was quite passionate about about doing it. So what kind of brief did they give you? Um, really, because Gabba is a community [00:07:30] organisation. Um, you're dealing with AAA group of people that aren't together professionally all the time. And so it's people change from year to year and and the way it's been run from year to year has changed. So for me, a lot of doing this one was actually about developing some systems so that whether I'm doing it next year or whether somebody else is doing it next year, um, there is at least a template to start with from which you can. Then you can then work with and and build upon [00:08:00] or move sideways or whatever, or or abandon completely and do something completely new and different, which is can also be a good thing. But at least there's a clear starting point. Um, in the past, when a lot of these and it's the case for a lot of these community type of events, um, people people, you know, they have full time jobs, and they're doing this stuff out of the goodness of their heart and trying as hard as they can for the community. But often, you know, it's not left [00:08:30] in the most organised, you know, state, um, with really good filing and really good records and and, you know, contacts and databases and that sort of stuff. So a lot a huge amount of doing that event last year was actually developing those systems, so that, um it would be easier in the future. So what kind of systems are we talking? Can you describe for me? What? You know what that kind of template looks like in the case of, um, of the gold charity option and dinner? [00:09:00] Um, because you're dealing with a charity auction, and that involves a vast auction catalogue. I think we had well over 80 different auction items this time. So you're dealing and communicating with a huge number of people. So it's really having that database of of the database of donors, the database of ticket buyers, the database of people that are actively involved in the event really up to date. Also, um, you one of my goals, [00:09:30] uh, this time was to bring in more solid level of sponsorship so that, um that would help to pay for the event itself and for the entertainment so that the proceeds of the auction were pretty much 100% going to the charity with the way they were supposed to go. And the event was paying for itself, which I managed to achieve this year. This last year with last year's event, which was fantastic. We actually the event itself actually made a little bit of money, um, which I was really, really happy with. But a huge part of that, obviously, is having, um, sponsorship [00:10:00] proposals and having sort of developed prospectus on what the event is, who the audience is having. All of that kind of, um, that written read source, um, and also visual resource of previous options that is there and can be turned around into proposals, whether they be proposals to donors to donate items or whether they're proposals to sponsors to get more actively involved in the event. Um, that resource is really important when you're [00:10:30] looking at putting together packages for sponsors and and saying, Well, this is the audience. This is, you know, this is the market for this event. How did you know who the audience was? How did you know? Well, I'd been to a couple of, um, previous gabber auctions. So I I had had that experience. And really, the core audience for the gabber events is going to be the gabber organisation itself. Um and so you start with that as your core audience, and then you think, OK, so you build out from there. And who are [00:11:00] the other groups that might be interested in this? And what's the What's the capacity of the room and that sort of stuff? And so you build it out that way, but also from a sponsorship perspective you're looking at at, um, how else they're getting exposure apart from simply on the event day. So you're looking at how are they getting exposure through marketing? How are they getting exposure through promotions and communications and that branding, um or that exposure is reaching an audience that might not even even go to the event. [00:11:30] But they're seeing that that particular sponsor, um, is supporting that particular gay event, and that might have meaning for them. What other kinds of research do you do? Gosh, um, I think what? The research. There are questions that need to be asked before you embark on any event. And I This is the stuff that I don't see done often enough, I have to say, with gay events is actually sitting back [00:12:00] right at the start and going here. Why are we doing this event? What? What? What are our aims? What are we hoping to achieve? Um, and being honest, really honest about that, Um, it's great to have kind of, you know, these lofty goals and that sort of stuff. But often a lot of it is is also tied up in people's egos. Um, and that sort of stuff. And I think it's really important to be honest about that stuff and to get it on the table before you even start doing an event. Because, really, if you're just [00:12:30] doing another event so that you can see yourself on top of a float pon, you know, floating down Ponsonby Road, that's a pretty bad reason to do it. Um, if you're genuinely doing it so that people, um there's more exposure to gay people or what's What's the well for pride reasons, I guess. And all the the many, um, sort of reasons that go with that, then that's great. But, you know, I think people need to be honest about why they're getting involved in the events and why they're doing it. Because, [00:13:00] yes, events can be fun. And yes, they can be dynamic and sometimes they even make money. But, um, more often than not, they lose money. They're exhausting, they're draining and they can actually drag community organisations down with them. Uh, I've seen community organisations great community organisations commit themselves to events that have, um, have caused them more harm than they've caused them. Good. And so you question Well, why Why are you doing that event? What are you what? What are you hoping to achieve? Is this a good idea for the organisation and [00:13:30] then beyond that thinking? Ok, so who's the audience for this? Are we being realistic? Um, and start asking some of those questions before sort of going Ok, well, you know, we want 10 tonnes of tinsel on top of that trailer. For many organisations, that kind of methodical approach is just doesn't happen How do you have any tips for somebody just in those initial stages To think. How do you methodically go through that? Um, just take a step back, take [00:14:00] a deep breath. Um, stop and think. And actually, you know, get a white board, write a few questions up, um, get a few people in a room, get some friends that know what they're doing in a room and actually bounce some ideas off it. I think that the gay community or the I mean, I'll just say gay community, but it will talk in a broader sense. Um, we have loads and loads of community events every year, and that's a great thing. Um, they [00:14:30] are of varying quality. Um, what I personally would like to see is maybe a few less community events, but maybe a few more that are of a of a higher quality. Um, because if you're talking about pride, um, as a concept and and achieving, making people feel better about themselves and about who they are, then for me, I think that they would that that more people will feel better about themselves if they're experiencing something that is of a higher level of quality, [00:15:00] um, and that they feel genuinely proud of, as opposed to just turning up at so once you've come up with the idea of, you know, Well, this is actually a good reason for doing another event. Is the next step actually just writing that down so that you've actually got something on people? So you wanna write it all down? Seriously, um, any of those kind of words and adjectives that come to you and your discussions write them down, um, they'll come back and they'll be useful later on. When you're writing the proposals and you're, um, talking [00:15:30] to artists or explaining what your event is or you're writing your media release, um, and trying to excite the media about what your event is, or you're, um, trying to sell the event to a sponsor. All of that stuff will be really handy. So write it down. So, getting back to the the the the charity auction, how far out are you planning? How long before the event do you start working on it? There's one thing you can be sure of is you can always do with more time. Um, for [00:16:00] me, sort of as a kind of off the top of my head. I'd like to be working on something like that six months out, Um, and like to be contracted into it that far out. So you've got some certainty around what you're doing, Um, and be actively working on it that far out, even though, you know, it will become a lot more intense. Um, when you get closer to the date, Um, but actually, with that one there were there were waves of intensity. There were the huge wave of output was needed kind of right at the start in terms of, um, coming [00:16:30] up with all that resource that could then go off to sponsors and potential auction donors and that sort of thing. And, um so there there's a huge wave of of stuff there. And then when it was time to actually start working on the auction catalogue itself, I mean, I I'd never done an auction catalogue before. That was my first one. So it was a huge learning experience for me. Um, and also, you realise, kind of how, what an in depth sort of process that is and how many different people you are dealing with and that they all kind [00:17:00] of need talking to, and they all kind of need to have. They all have their own kind of expectations of why they're donating, and and you kind of got to got to give them time to talk that through and and respect that, um, and that those sort of human processes take a hell of a long time. And then, of course, you get closer to it and you get closer to the event itself. And, um, the amount of time spent on it ramps right up again. And then afterwards the event's finished and you fall [00:17:30] over for two weeks. I mean, that's sort of classic event event management stuff is that, you know, be prepared to fall over after the event because you will not feel 100%. You've said a number of times about the fact that it is so much about kind of people management interaction with people. And I'm wondering, do you have or can you talk about the kind of different types of language that you use for different people? Like, for instance, when [00:18:00] you're talking to event sponsors or event audiences or, um, creatives that are working on the event or the people that are hiring you. They all will be requiring different language, won't they? It's like a multi octopus lingual version of English, um, in which funders need to be spoken to completely different to sponsors. Sponsors need to be spoken to completely different to artists. Artists need to be spoken to completely [00:18:30] different to donors. Um, they all have. And that's APR thing. It's a it's being empathy, empathetic to the person that you're dealing with or the person that you're speaking with and doing it in the way that they want to hear it, or that they want to discuss it or it's communication. It's just finding a way to engage with them. And often, um, that means adapting [00:19:00] the language. Um, very. I mean, funding funding in particular, is a very specific language of its own Do. Do you have examples? Um, well, you know, if you're dealing with some sort of hip hop artist, it might be Yeah, bro. How's it going? You know, um, you know, do you want do you want to come down to the event? It's all good. Da da da da da So very sort of casual, and you're kind of dealing with it on a in a sort of really streety kind of way. Um, if you're dealing with funders, [00:19:30] well, they've got very clear expectations about what the funding is there to achieve and what the funding goals are. And you have to you kind of almost use their own language. Um, to deliver that back to them, um, so or dealing with Corporates. Obviously, you're going into a kind of a more of a corporate sponsor. Kind of very, very business language. Um, so it it varies dramatically from very creative use of the language to very sort of, um, formal [00:20:00] use of the language. So is it more about, uh, mirroring what the other? How the other person is speaking often? Yeah. So in your communications, with with all these different types, that's true across the board, That's true in life in general, really, isn't it? But I guess with events, because you're dealing with, you know, a whole lot of a whole lot of very disparate groups, often and and different types of people. I guess maybe it's a bit more magnified in that sense. So in your communication with all those different types [00:20:30] of people. Are you much more of face to face person or a email person? Or how does how does that work for you personally? I'm an email person. Yeah, Um, yeah. I'll pick up the phone and do it that way. Um, uh, it's taken me a lot of time to be more comfortable in meetings. I generally my preferred way of working is to have a front person. And I'm kind of the, um the sort of backup sort of resource that kind of goes [00:21:00] with them, and that person fronts the meeting. And I'm sort of holding bits of knowledge and resource that they might need to know throughout it. That's my preferred kind. But that's a purely individual thing. And it's just my way of working. I wouldn't expect anybody else to be that crazy. Do you have any more examples of the different types of communication? I just I just think it's it's really basic communication PR skills. It's just being empathetic to whoever you're communicating [00:21:30] with at the time, um, and and telling it to them in a way that is easy for them to understand and that, um makes them want to support what you're doing. I guess, um, where that becomes often most important with events is when you get down to marketing and publicity and you're actually communicating directly with your audience. Um, that's where you have to really know your stuff. And that's where you have to really know your audience as well. [00:22:00] So for me, someone that's produced, um, sort of innumerable dance parties and nightclub events over the years. One thing that I'm actually really, really aware of is that now that I'm now that I'm 40 is that, um, I'm not as a with the language of a 20 year old who would be going to that style of event these days. And so if I was to be producing [00:22:30] another one of those events, I would try to either a work with I I Well, I think it would be essential to work with someone who's from that demographic who knows that audience really well, um and and can advise me on how to communicate with them. Um, I think that there's, you know, that's that's one reason why I sort of have stepped out of doing a lot of parties these days is that I actually think that parties as a sort of, um genre or a or a or [00:23:00] a medium, um, are best done by the kids that are going to them themselves, and not by older guys who are looking at it from a sort of profit perspective, um, or an ego perspective or whatever. Um, I think it's much more healthy that the kids are running those parties for themselves and, you know, often times like with so homo or some of those sort of club more recent club nights that have come along, the promoters come to me and sort of asked for my opinion on stuff. And I love helping these kids with this stuff, [00:23:30] and I love that they're doing it for themselves and that they're expressing themselves much more important than me coming along and putting one on at this point. So you're acting more as a mentor often these days, Yeah, and particularly with regards to sort of, um, sort of contemporary concerts or nightclub events or that kind of stuff. Yeah, I sort of I get quite a number of them gay or lesbian that that come to me and, um, I love helping them. It's fabulous. What kind of questions do they ask? [00:24:00] Oh, gosh, Everything, um, around budgets or around programming or around marketing Or, you know, even just sort of, you know, how do I get my posters distributed? Or how do I How do I How do I organise my ticketing or, um, what do you think about this act? Or do you think that would work or is is does this press release read OK? I mean, they ask loads of different things, and it's, um [00:24:30] yeah, No, it's great. I love I love helping them. I would never say no. I'm wondering if you can talk me through or take me through a bit of a timeline as to, like, say, for instance, with the the A charitable action. When things happen within that six month period leading up to the event in terms of being a resource for other people, it's really depending on dependent on the event. Every event will have its own will be individual and will have its own timeline. Um, [00:25:00] and different styles of events will have very different timelines from, you know, I don't know opera new Zealand producing an opera's timeline will be completely different to, um to the to a gab, a timeline or a festival day in a park timeline. So it's really hard for me to answer that question without sort of looking at a specific event. I guess, uh, the other question would be, you know, is it important to have a timeline? Yes, absolutely, it is. It's also important to be, um, to be flexible [00:25:30] enough to know that it's not always going to remain the same and that it will change. But, um, you should definitely have, um, deadlines for certain things in terms of when the tickets go on sale. Um, when the marketing should be distributed. Um, those sorts of really important milestones, I I'd say, uh, probably rather more than having a really, really heavily involved time timeline. I think it's important to have a really [00:26:00] good handle on those those milestones in terms of the size of team that works on events. Do you have any ideas about, uh, what is a good size team? To be working on an event well, less is often more, Um, that that's that's because people have really varied opinions And when you're talking about, um, their culture or the art that they enjoy or the entertainment or experiences that they enjoy? [00:26:30] Well, of course, they've got very personal and very strong viewpoints on that. So organising an event with a committee, um, is, you know, can I say fuck? Um because that's what it is. Um and, um, you know. But it can also be a real positive because you've got all this resource that's available to you and you've got all these brains and they're bringing different thoughts and different levels of expertise [00:27:00] and areas of expertise that you yourself have. So working with the committee is only as good as as you're able to manage the committee. In many ways, it's harder, but it can be more rewarding. How does that work in a situation where say the committee is paying you to organise something and yet the committee is is is the one that's kind of coming up with new ideas and maybe continually changing the ideas. How does that work for you? You need to have balls. You need to be really, really strong. [00:27:30] You actually need to be able to stand there and go I'm sorry. That's not going to work. Or, you know, I'm sorry we actually signed off on this several weeks ago, and I'm already moving forward in that direction. And I'm not making that change at this point. Or, you know, you just actually have to be able to say, Look, I'm sorry, this and and give reasons this is why, And it can be very time consuming, and it can be very, um, annoying and exasperating, but the on the other side of it, people will also bring really great ideas that you wouldn't have thought of to the table. [00:28:00] Well, they'll bring in resource that wouldn't have otherwise been available to you. So it's kind of swings and roundabouts. So you you mentioned the idea of sign off. Is that something that you do a lot of? Um, not so much formally as, um, as kind of just making sure when you're in those committee meetings that when there is an agreement, that it's everybody knows and it's noted. And, um and then you move on to the next thing. So [00:28:30] so that when it does, if there is a change or things do shift, um, that it's pretty clear What the what the intention or the direction was. Obviously, where contractual stuff is concerned, Get it in writing, even if it's just an email, get it in writing. Keep that email, don't delete it. Save it for years. But, uh uh, where that sort of stuff is concerned, you must have it in writing. Moving closer to the event. Do [00:29:00] you have a A general order of things that happen? Like, for instance, do you go marketing tickets? Physical planning, location? How does that work? Well, as a generalisation, I guess. First of all, it's kind of concept. So it's sitting down, and it's figuring out sort of a broad brush strokes kind of concept about what the event is. Who is it for? What's it aiming to achieve all those questions we've previously discussed? Then, from there, I would probably go into programming [00:29:30] next. So which who are you going to work with? Which artists, musicians, performers? Um, are you going to work with and realising, um, those goals, Um, and then sometimes you know that that can be switched around. Sometimes if it's just a straight concert, somebody's bringing that artist over, and you're going to promote them. Well, that's already sorted out for you. You might just be looking at who's the support act? Um, and then from there, I guess you look at your team [00:30:00] and you look at the people that you want to work with on this event. Um, and very important aspect of that is going to be, um, who's going to be your publicist? Who's going to do your marketing? Who's going to do your graphic design? Photography illustrations, that sort of stuff. That sort of stuff can take quite a long, a long time to generate. So you need to start thinking about that stuff quite early on. Um, then you've got your milestones. Set your key milestones in terms of when different types of media are going [00:30:30] to hit. Um, and you've got your tickets go on sale date. Obviously, before that, straight after the programming, you need to be thinking about sponsorship. Um, the sponsors need to be brought on as early as possible. They can't be an afterthought. Um, sponsors or funders. Both of these things take have long lead in times, uh, more so obviously funding than sponsorship. Um, but they both require an external organisation to run it through their departments, [00:31:00] um, to give you approval or otherwise. So that's gonna take time. Um, And along while you're doing that, hopefully you're designing your marketing and getting all that stuff ready to go. Um, what's gonna happen if nobody sponsors your event? What's gonna happen if you can't find a sponsor for that event? You don't really want to go too far down the trail of confirming everything and contracting people until you know that your budget is going to work. God, we haven't even talked about budgeting. Um, how did I miss that out? Um, [00:31:30] that I mean, that comes right in at the very, very start again. Um, if your budget's not working, if it doesn't stack up, if it's not realistic and it's not realisable, don't bother. Um, then I guess you're into your your marketing, marketing and ticketing should probably happen at the same time. Um, as a general rule, I wouldn't want any less than sort of six weeks lead in for ticket sales. Um, for most events, uh, it gives it gives. [00:32:00] And then that's only purely speaking from a New Zealand perspective. I know it works different in other places. But it does give people time to get the ticket into their hand. Get a bit excited about it. Different groups all know that they're going. They've got their tickets in their hands. Often the ticket itself is a great little flyer and a great piece of marketing. And so if you can get tickets into people's hands early on, um, that itself can help generate sales. So the ticketing aspects are really, really [00:32:30] important. And it's really important that you don't just sort of throw it on sale last minute and expect people to suddenly turn up, because oftentimes it won't happen. Then I guess you've got to book your production and you've got to, gosh, you know, booking venue. That should have come right back at the beginning as well. Those are essential things, Um, and then working with timelines in terms of the event itself and how that's going to run on the day or on the night. So I mean, is this? It's there's heaps [00:33:00] of aspects to it, and one of the great things about event events management is that you kind of often end up becoming a bit of a jack of all trades and you have to get in. You have to get stuck in on a number of different levels. Everything from copy writing to budgeting to, um, to actually managing people in crowds on the day, um are often done by the one person. And so that sort of I think that's a great thing. What a great thing to actually be able to learn [00:33:30] all that stuff on the job. If I was doing an event for the first time, what would your advice be? Because there are so many things to learn. Where would I start? How would I, um or would you suggest I not do it myself and well, no. If you're if you're a first time gay event organiser looking to do a first time gay event, um, and you want to do it all by yourself, my advice would be don't, um please, uh, find someone [00:34:00] that has some experience and that they and that knows what they're doing. Um, and that has, you know, sort of proven track record and bring them on board and ask them for their thoughts. And what do they think about this event? Is it a good idea. Um, is it are Are its aims realistic? Does the budget work? Um, or are you just kind of Is it a bit of a sort of feel good pie in the sky? Kind of. Yeah. It would be great to do that. But, you know, it could end up costing [00:34:30] you a lot of money and, um, exhausting and draining you emotionally and physically. So, um, you know, get someone on board that really, really knows, You know, it doesn't always have to be for financial remuneration, either. There are plenty of us out there that have been doing this for a long time that have loads of experience and are more than happy, um, to give our opinion at no cost. So find those people and and, um, and make good use of them. [00:35:00] You You're right. We haven't really talked about budgets. And I'm just wondering, um, for you What? What what makes a good budget break even for me Makes a good budget. I. I, um often I don't think that these community events really you got I mean, let's be realistic about the size of the market here. I think people often overestimate the size of the GL BT XYZ market. Um, in New Zealand, Um, it's not big. [00:35:30] It's not big at all. And so be realistic. And if you really aim to break even if you make a little bit of money, that's a bonus. But, um, sort of looking at these community events as they're going to be great money makers is, um, a little bit stupid. In my opinion, where does most money go on a budget? Um, sorry. Just the break even is success, you know, often break even if you've. If you've run a really good quality event, your audience has [00:36:00] had a fantastic time. Um, your goals have been achieved, and you've broken even. You're a winner. Where does most money go on a budget? Um, gosh, where does most money go on? A budget production often, and venue. Those are really big costs. Um, marketing can be a really huge cost if you're looking at advertising in the Herald or, um, and some of those bigger, bigger places, express can be a very expensive place to advertise. Um, but, you know, there [00:36:30] are also cheap ways to get your message out there, especially now that there's social networking, media and and, um, websites and online communications. Um, and you should never underestimate the power of developing your own database. Um, which you know is more than just accumulating 10,000 friends on Facebook and spamming them. It's actually about spending a lot of time actually finding out who's going to your events con consulting with them as much as communicating [00:37:00] with them, making them feel like they're part of something. And they are. They can be. They can have give you feedback to the event and, um, and then treating them with with the respect that they deserve as loyal audience members. Um, yeah, I think there are. There are there are ways to do it that aren't necessarily that expensive. Um, the other thing is, often the area of the budget that is smallest is the artists and the performers, and [00:37:30] that breaks my heart. Um, those people, a lot of them that that is, that's their profession. That's what they do for a living. And they've been doing it for longer than you've been running events, and they're very good at what they do. And, um, you know, expecting these people to turn up for like, 50 bucks in a bar tab is insulting. Um, so don't do it. Can you talk to me a wee bit about when you're putting together a budget? How do you factor in things like sponsorship and in kind [00:38:00] support and kind of real money and and kind of balance it up? Do you have any kind of formulas for? Well, just it's profit and loss, its income and expenditure. It's that simple, really. So it's just, you know, these are all this is all year, areas of income. This is all your areas of expenditure, and, um and here's the difference. Um, you really need to be very realistic in the area of income. Um, [00:38:30] in terms of what ticket sales are actually achievable. Um, and with sponsorship for me personally, I've always rather than putting in a sort of a generic sponsorship figure, I'll actually think specifically of OK, I can see a couple of $1000 coming from there, maybe $1000 coming from there and factoring them in individually rather than saying, Hey, here's a big sort of $10,000 marketing. Uh, sorry. $10,000 sponsorship, um, sum and then it's [00:39:00] not really realisable Also, um, underestimate your income. Be surprised. You know, if if it comes out at the other end and you do better than that, um don't sort of do these sort of pie in the sky. Um, income figures, because they won't happen. So with sponsorship in the New Zealand context, is it hard to find sponsors either money or in kind support? [00:39:30] Um to do with with queer events? Yes, it is. Um, you have to be You have to think really creatively and you have to You have to sort of target um target quite specific organisations. Um you do have gay organisations or queer organisations that will support you like, uh, like gay NZ dot com or like express that will give you in kind support. Um very it's a lot [00:40:00] rarer to find a gay organisation that's actually gonna throw some cash at you. Um, a lot of it really comes down to personal contacts built up over a long period of time and a very long track record. Don't burn your sponsors don't disappoint your sponsors. Don't, um don't insult your sponsors by chopping and changing to other organisations that are in the same Indus industry group as [00:40:30] there and treat them with the respect that, um, that that they deserve for investing in your event. Um, yeah. What are some of the the the things that you, as an event organiser, would offer a sponsor in terms of you know what? What would they get out of it? Oh, multiple levels of exposure. Um, there's everything from sort of from the the marketing and publicity exposure, which can often be as simple as name checking and press releases or logos on artwork, [00:41:00] um, through to the on the night exposure of of how their brand is going to be communicated to the audience on the night. That's all pretty standard stock standard stuff. Um, beyond that, you actually try to think of creative ways for the sponsor to get more involved in the event, Um, at not necessarily at more cost to them. Um, so you know, if it's a fashion show, it might be getting their product in some context onto the runway with [00:41:30] the models or, um making or getting them involved getting their product involved in goodie bags so so that customers are actually directly experiencing their products. Um, yeah. Think as creatively as you can about ways in which the sponsor can get involved in the event. Um, often, that's the difference between whether they'll give you the sponsorship money or not. If you're just sort of going in and sort of sending in standard Y, yeah, you'll get the logo, you'll get name checked here, [00:42:00] and bang, bang, bang. Um, yawn. But if you can give them a point of difference and go, you know, we're going to we're going to, um, communicate your brand in this way and really get it. Um, get your brand involved in the event and involved with the audience they might think about. Think think more carefully about it. You've mentioned a couple of times about, um, consulting the audience, talking to the audience. And I'm wondering, how do you get [00:42:30] genuine feedback from an audience about an event? Um, often, it's really, really difficult. Often you really have to ask around because, um, this might it's just a part of contemporary. The contemporary society that we we live in today is you don't get much critical response anymore. Um, once upon a time, there were reviewers that would go and review things, and you would get a lot of critical response. And, you know, some people reacted really well to that and other people. Not so well, [00:43:00] um, personally, I'm always really in favour of receiving critical response. Um, and it can be really hard to to find, because people just want to sort of pat you on the back or go Oh, yes. Wasn't it fabulous or oh, yes. Wasn't it great? Well, it's a little bit of a cop out. Easy response. To be honest, I'd rather that people actually really thought about it and went OK, you know, that was great. That was great. That was great. And that could have been better. And if I can find someone who can give me that, that could [00:43:30] have been better. That's gold. That is really, really gold. It's often really hard to find these days, and you have to really get around your audience and really grill them to get it out of them. Um, it can be quite difficult because they just want to. They just want to tell you that everything's great and everything's happy and everything's nice, and, um, they don't necessarily want to tell you the hard stuff. Um, but the hard stuff is more valuable. What about the other situation? Where, for instance, some online forums are [00:44:00] leaning more to the negative, and and it's it's it's kind of just bitching about events. How how do you How do you navigate through that kind of 21st century talkback? Um, ignore it. No, Um, read it, take it on board. Um, but you can't if it's if it's just online forum bit. Um, then you really you should still read it. There might be some useful stuff in there, [00:44:30] but you probably can't let it way too heavily on your mind, or it'll do you in. So do you do any kind of, uh, debrief after an event, You know, in terms of like, looking at all this feedback and and yes, um, and the level of formality around that really depends on the event as to whether you're going to do an actual formal follow up report or whether it's just stuff that you go. Oh, OK. And take note of that and store it in your head for later. But, um, yes, always. And what are the kind of things you look at. [00:45:00] Oh, gosh. Um, right across the board. Um, was it a good choice of artist? Was it a good choice of opening act? Uh, did you like the lighting? Was it? You know, did you did? Was the sound quality good enough? Um, was it a good choice of venue with the bar staff friendly? Um, all that sort of stuff? Yeah. I mean, every aspect of the event that you can imagine. Um, I've discovered after doing the the gaol charity auction and dinner [00:45:30] that the sound levels at the very with the very back row of tables weren't as good as as I would hope. That's something that I've that I'll note for next year. It took me a lot of time to find that out. I didn't actually find that out on the night. I think I found it out a couple of weeks later. Um, and also that perhaps the lighting levels could have been raised a little bit back there during the actual auction segment of of the evening. Um, so yeah, it it can [00:46:00] be really It can be really subtle differences. Or it can be stuff that's just a an all out stuff up. Um, but yeah, hopefully if it's an all out stuff up. You noticed on the night you mentioned the newses, and it's something we haven't covered. And I'm just wondering, do you have any advice in terms of choosing venues and what to look out for? No, it's a It's a fundamental part of programming. It's as as important as selecting the right artists. Um Hm. [00:46:30] I guess work with a venue that's reputable. That has, um that has really good people working within it. Um, that has really good technical resource. Um, often, that can be a huge make a huge difference to your budget in terms of how much resource the venue itself has available to you, uh, in terms of a sound system or a or a lighting rig, um, that you might not have to bring in all [00:47:00] that, uh, resource from externally. Um, so, yeah, I mean, it's it's a It's a fundamental part of the event. Make sure that the that the venue actually matches the style of event that you're putting on and that it's a venue that your audience wants to go to. It's not often Actually, that's a gay specific thing. Um, I've discovered over the years that gay people actually don't like and mass going to venues [00:47:30] that are too far off the beaten track or that they've had no prior experience of. They like to feel comfortable. They like to know that they're welcome there. Um, that's something that definitely needs to be taken into consideration when running a queer event. And also, I'm thinking not just the venue itself, but I guess the location and things like parking and all of those external things around the event. Uh, yeah, you have to. You do you have to think about all that stuff as well. Um, probably secondary [00:48:00] to what's happening inside the room. Um, but yeah, I mean, parking parking is important. The I've have worked on events with very expensive hotel parking being the only parking that was adjacent to it. And we figured that one out. And so next time we used that venue, we figured out a way that, um that patrons that were coming to the event, um, we're able to get, um, we're able to pick up parking chips. That would give them a discount, so yeah, that that stuff needs to be taken into into consideration, [00:48:30] particularly if it's, uh, an event in the centre of the city that's got real. That's going to have really expensive parking all around it. The events that you've been involved with have they been predominantly kind of professionally driven, or have they involved a lot of volunteer people? And if they and if so what? How was that? Both, Um, again, it's the committee ones that involve a lot of volunteers. Uh, I guess Hero is [00:49:00] a huge example of of that style of event in which everybody in the community felt like they had some level of ownership of that and some level of involvement in that. So you really, really have to. You really have to be very, very careful what you do when you're working with some with a festival or a brand or something. That's that iconic, that it's sewn into the fabric of the community. And, um, it's it's fraught. You have to be [00:49:30] really, really, really careful in that area. So how far into heroes history did you become involved? Got it. It had been around quite a while when I got formally involved with it as a as a board member and started, um, producing the two hero parties that I produced. Um, it was towards the end of the heyday of hero. Um, in fact, it was the the town hall party that I produced in 2001. That was the same [00:50:00] year that, um there was over expenditure on the parade. Things organizationally started to look really shocky. And the whole thing really started to fall over. Um, that broke my heart because that event, actually that big hero party at the town hall, um, was incredibly profitable and sent quite a lot of money back into the organisation, and it really all got misused, chewed up and spit out. Can you talk a wee bit more [00:50:30] about hero in terms of coming into an event that was well established and kind of taking it forward? Um, and it's also interesting with hero because, I mean, it was such a successful event, and then to have it kind of crumble so quickly. I mean, maybe could you comment on on how things can crumble so quickly and what to look out for? Um, I guess its eyes were bigger than its belly. And, um, it it was the parade. Make no mistake, [00:51:00] it was the parade that that killed Hero. Um, which is why I kind of really roll my eyes when I hear proposals for new Auckland pride festivals that involve large parades. Kind of rolling down Ponsonby Road. Um, a it makes me think, Oh, God, can we have Have we not got a new idea in our heads? Um, and B? I also recognise the reality that it was the, um the cost and the sort of human expense [00:51:30] of hero of the hero parade That really sunk hero as a festival as a whole. Um, so it was a question, but he is a really tricky It's a really tricky discussion to have, um, it can go on for hours, and everybody's got their own perspective on it. And I think my question probably didn't help because it was actually, it was a It was a double banger question. I mean, the first thing is, um, what was it like coming into, uh, an event that had been going for a number of years? It [00:52:00] was fabulous. It was inspiring. It was I mean, I wanted nothing more at that stage than to produce the hero party because I had experienced so many hero parties that had, um, really impacted on me and really inspired me and changed the way that I that I looked at things or changed the way that I experienced things or, um, that were just landmark events in my life. And so when I sort of realised, OK, you, all your capabilities [00:52:30] are kind of heading in this direction, you could actually do this yourself and found myself in a position of doing it. Um, I just I guess I just felt really lucky and and and inspired, and I guess you're walking on the shoulders of Giants, and I know that's a cliche. But there were some great, um, party directors that came before me. And so it felt to me like I needed to honour their legacy as well as move things [00:53:00] forward creatively. Do you think it was easier to come into an event that was long established, or was that more of a kind of a rope? Unique? No, it's It's always easier to come into an event that has an established audience. There's no question about that whatsoever. Um, that's one of the issues with it at the moment is that it's been practically a decade since there has been an established audience for a, uh, full scale hero festival. So for whoever wants to sort of move an [00:53:30] Auckland pride idea forward, they're really dealing with something that really has to build from the ground up or from the grass roots up. Um, which I think is if you're going to start something like that again, that's really where it it comes right back to people. And so you've really got to start small and and make people love it and make people get involved in it and make people engage and participate in it. And it's not just a matter of coming in with this kind of, um, rigid, um, historic template and trying [00:54:00] to impose it on people because that audience doesn't exist anymore. And not only that, but the creative people that used to make all those floats and that used to be involved in all those floats or the marching boys that used to go down Ponsonby Road. They don't exist anymore either, so yes, if it's if it's got a long history and it and it's and it's established and it's healthy. Huge plus. And the idea that hero kind of disintegrated really quickly [00:54:30] over a very short space of time. Um, does that point to the fact that events can actually crumble really quickly? Well, it didn't actually. It, um it died over a long, arduous, um, and really kind of insulting to the memory of what it was time. Um, it probably should have been allowed to have fallen over quite quickly after, um, [00:55:00] after the sort of financial organisational disasters of 2001. Um, or it should have changed its model quite radically at that time, but it sort of allowed was allowed to sort of Peter on and Peter on. And I guess people have an emotional involvement in it and an ego involvement. I know there were certain board members, um, that say stayed attached to it a long time after it had actually been [00:55:30] a great festival, and it became a really sad shadow of itself and was allowed to sort of drift aimlessly on and and trying to imitate its glory days. Um, and it became, to all intents, and purposes a gay theme park of prior hero glories. And that's really, really sad. Um, and it it doesn't help anybody who wants to do anything new, because it actually went down [00:56:00] in a really sort of drawn out tragic, arduous way and all those people that had all that love for it and really genuine, heartfelt love for it on a really deep level, um, were hurt watching it sort of disintegrate over a long period of time. I think it was a long and messy death. It's an interesting point. Do you find that it's good, Or maybe not so good to be, like, emotionally involved in these [00:56:30] kind of events? Do you or do you do you take a step back and take it more professional kind of attitude? It's a double edged sword. Um, it's essential to be emotionally involved in it, to feel passionate about it, that I mean, and that goes, and for whatever you do, you should always I mean, no one really wants to be going and clocking in clocking out every day. I mean, you should feel passionate about what you're doing. Um, but you know, with that comes the other side of things is that sometimes things won't go the [00:57:00] way that you want them to go, and, um, it'll hurt. And so you have to be strong enough to sort of bear that when it when it happens and it will happen. Were there any other kind of key learnings from hero for you? There are a lot of negatives from here I that that I came across. Um, there was a level of fraud and a level of dishonesty, and there were a lot of sort [00:57:30] of inflated egos and stuff that I've really tried to avoid. Um, since, um, that that's why I, I guess. I guess maybe it's made me really conscious of the need to kind of sit down and and be honest and get all the stuff out on the table in the first place and actually think about why we're doing this event and who the event is for and why we feel passionate about it. Um, I think [00:58:00] that it's made my desire to have that clearer, um, stronger thinking of marketing, uh, events. And I'm just wondering, um, a couple of strands here, one is Do you have any tips or tricks for getting media involved in in queer events. It's Yeah, um, it's tricky because it can backfire if you can pull media stunts that, [00:58:30] um, are boring and lame. And that's not going to reflect well on your event at all. Sure you got their attention. You did. You did your look at me, but, um, really important if you're gonna yell, Look at me. Look at me. Look at me. Really important that there's something worth looking at. Be personal, be direct. Um, in the same way that you would be if you were dealing with a sponsor rather media. They They're people, too. They individuals, [00:59:00] too. They don't, you know, Don't just spam them, come up with an angle for them. Come up with an angle that's specific to their medium to their newspaper, their magazine, their radio show what? Their TV programme, Whatever. Something that's unique and exclusive to them, um, and talk to them directly about it. Don't just spam them because it's really easy to hit. Delete. Do you have any examples of kinds of angles [00:59:30] that that you've used in the past? Well, I guess a really obvious one that doesn't they don't get thought about that much is the, um is the local newspapers? Um, the community newspapers? Very. It's often very hard to get coverage for your event in a national newspaper in the Herald. But you may have a performer or an artist who is from a specific [01:00:00] area who's from West Auckland or from South Auckland, or from the area where the Moua Courier is, or from the Eastern Bays, Courier or the Central Leader. And, um so you can offer those. You can give those people something that's directly pertinent to their audience and to the to the sort of the area that they represent. Um, and that gives them a special angle for that story. So that's a kind of really obvious one and one that I do quite a lot. [01:00:30] Have you encountered any kind of homophobia in in in the kind of media in terms of not running gay stores? Um, really I? I mean, on the one hand, it's really important to have a really supportive gay media, which we have got, which is great. Um hm. Yes, II I It's not so much that they will say no to your story this is the mainstream media, [01:01:00] um, or that they'll be anti doing the story at all because it's gay. Um, but it's the perspective that they bring to it often, which is an interesting thing. It's their, um, their media perspective on what gay or lesbian or bisexual or transgender is. And that's often that's often what can feel slightly insulting. It can feel like they're just setting you up as some kind of look at the gays laughable entertainment. [01:01:30] Um, you saw this a lot. You you see this a lot with media around the big gay out and the stereotypes that they go for and that they try to put on screen and the oddly, um, sort of cliched questions that they ask. So it's not so much a question of, you know, will. Will they not cover me because I'm gay? That more? How will they cover me? What about marketing to queer communities? Do you have any ideas about, you know? Is there a specific [01:02:00] imagery or words or kinds of language that you use to actually get to that kind of community or those communities? Um, visual stuff? There's there's a visual language for gay men particularly, um, that often involves a sort of naked man on a poster. Um, and you see a lot of it. And sometimes over the years, I have, um I've gone into that. I've I've [01:02:30] sort of gone along with that cliche. Um, because I know that the audience that I'm after is sort of very mainstream, um, very mainstream gay. Or in the case of when I did the dance party for the opening of the out games. Well, OK, that was a very sporting gay shirts, off type type of market. So I had no problem with kind of, um, working that cliche, Um, the shirtless guy on the poster. Um, but [01:03:00] personally, it's a personal thing. I like to be a little bit more creative and challenging than that in general. Um, so usually I wouldn't do it, but it has done a lot. What about to other parts of the community, like lesbians? Transgender. Um, yeah. I mean, there are There are looks that that sort of sort of sparkly, glamorous looks that might go go with a drag event, or, I don't know, the use of [01:03:30] of the use of purple on on lesbian. Um imagery Or there's all sorts of, um, visual sort of visual touch points that work for different groups. Um, I guess the use of big, burly, hairy men on a Bears poster. Um, these are images that, um, that those groups identify with. So actually, the thing that's most difficult is when you're trying to do a really inclusive event that actually covers all of those [01:04:00] groups. That's hard. And what's the answer? Well, sadly, often, the answer is a realistic answer, which goes, OK. The largest number of people that are going to be coming to this particular event are going to be gay men. So we'll cop out and we'll go for that level for that For that imagery, Um, that's the general fallback. Um, I try to be more creative than that. And what about language? Like I [01:04:30] mean, for instance, would you use the word queer on a poster or gay LGBTI? What? What kind of language would you use? Um, it depends on who the event, who, the who the audience is and how the audience identifies themselves. And, um, you would market that event to that audience in the way that they'd like to be, um, in the way that they'd like to be, um, labelled. So if we took the example of a very generic kind of [01:05:00] queer audience What what language would you use? Um, I would probably spell it out as, um, and use all the words gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, Um, and all of the additional ones that have been added in recent times. Um, I would do that Probably more than go for the generic queer, because because, um, those groups are individual groups. They often have very little in common. Um, [01:05:30] they're very distinct. Um, and a they don't actually fit together terribly comfortably under one word and, you know, and proposals and things you end up shortening it to the GL BT plus so or the LGBT plus, or however you do it. So that kind of realisation that actually, maybe the queer community is full of little communities. [01:06:00] Was that something that you always knew? Or is it is this something that you've realised as you've done events? Um, it was probably one of the strongest learnings from being involved in hero. I would say, um, one of the things that I was really into when I sort of, um, when I did that first big party at the town hall, um was to get a consultation group together that reflected all of those different sort of different groups and different and different subgroups. [01:06:30] Um, and I tried to have people that were actively sort of on the scene, going out, experiencing parties, that parties were a part of their life but that they also came from each one of those groups. And so they were able to input, um, input, thought and direction from from those groups and from their own communities. Um, as well as then. Once the production was up and [01:07:00] running and the marketing was up and running, being able to communicate that back to their particular groups. So they were, you know, incredibly valuable, um, sort of facilitators of communication, that kind of consulting group. Do you use that group throughout the kind of gestation of the event, or is it just solely at the start? And then you say, OK, I've got my ideas. I'm gonna go and do it now, or it depends on the event. But if I was going [01:07:30] to run a proper consultation group, I would run them regularly. Um, from the very start, right through till after the event. Um, I think that that's, you know, just calling them together for a one-off brain pick is fine. But, um, if you're going to make better use of them, then then sort of doing it over a long period of time is good in terms of events and using volunteers. What are some of the techniques that you can [01:08:00] draw people to become volunteers and kind of keep them and things that they can do? What? Um, one of the things that I've learned is that the that the volunteer, the group of volunteers who will actually get stuck in on the ground. Um, it's actually quite a small group of people. And it tends to be the same group of people, Um, from year to year and from event to event. And so you do learn who, who these people are, and [01:08:30] you learn, Um, what specific ones of them are better at than others? Um, there are some people that are amazing. Charitable collectors give them a bucket and they will go out there and they will fill it and they will have a great time doing it, and they'll be incredible. There are other people that are completely useless in that area. Um, so really, it's we're trying to figure out how to make best use of that resource, and, [01:09:00] um, also being aware that it is a finite resource. It's not infinite. And how do you keep them coming back? Treat them well. I mean, they're volunteering their time to you and, um, thank them. Um, thank them personally. Thank them publicly. Um, give them acknowledgement for I mean, often they don't get any acknowledgment whatsoever, and that's really, really sad. And, [01:09:30] um and they're the same people that come back time after time after time. And it's often it's the simplest little personal thank you that will actually make the biggest difference. Just wrapping up now. And I'm wondering if you can kind of maybe synthesise what we've been talking about for the last hour, um, into, uh, a kind of a bullet list of things that you would pass on to somebody just starting to do an event. You know what would be the key bullets [01:10:00] that you would kind of give them? Why do you want to do this? event. Who is this event for? Um What what's the audience? Um, Why do you specifically and why do the people that you're working with want to want to work on this event? Um, does the budget work? Are the numbers realistic? Um, those would be, I guess those are, and and artistically, what are you trying [01:10:30] to achieve? You know, this is one thing that I'd have to say. The level of artistry and queer events in New Zealand, Um, has been on the decline for a long period of time. Um, what are you trying to achieve artistically? What are you trying to communicate? And are you working with the very best people in their field? The very best dancers, the very best singers, the very best performers. [01:11:00] Um, are you giving them a platform that is worthy of their talent? And, um, yeah, those are the sorts of things that I would think about first and foremost.

IRN: 581
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089221
TITLE: Miriam Saphira - Creating Our Stories
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Miriam Saphira
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2000s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Auckland; Broadsheet (magazine); Charlotte Museum; Lesbian Feminist Circle; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Miriam Saphira; activism; archives; arts; education; elders; feminism; history; identity; interviewing; legacy; lesbian; library; oral history; organisation; preservation; research; social; teaching; venues
DATE: 5 March 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Miriam talks about establishing the Charlotte Museum Trust - a museum based in Auckland that collects and preserves artefacts of lesbian culture in New Zealand.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, a very brief background. I mean, I grew up in the country, so I'm used to a number eight wire mentality of fixing things. II. I went to school. I went to night school and then to university and trained as a psychologist. So you have to be fairly creative doing, um, therapy. I got ill left that. And, um, I became an artist, which I had done Art. I was intending to be an art teacher back in my very early days. So, [00:00:30] um, art And so that gave me an idea about display and so on, things that were useful for the museum. And then the museum came about because I went to the outlines conference in Wellington and I had this quilt that I'd made out of t-shirts and a great big badge collection thinking Gans would be nice down there. They could display it and introduce people to Lagan with it. Um, everybody loved the two pieces, but they said, Oh, no, no, no. We can't take objects, not objects that big. And so I came back to Auckland and I had a small [00:01:00] group of people that I was trying to encourage to do things for Gans. I'd been on the trust of LA Gas for a while and I won't go into that. But it's a bit personal, um, arguments with a certain person. But, um anyway, I was encouraging people still to send stuff because Auckland is not good at sending things to like. And so I talked to this group and we said, Well, well, maybe we need a museum of lesbian objects. There's all these things, what's gonna happen to them? He [00:01:30] tossed those ideas around, and that's really how it was born. And then we thought about what would we call it? Um, very naive, totally ignorant about the requirements of a museum. I have to say, um, and we spent ages discussing. We wanted an old fashioned name and somebody said Charlotte and I said, Charlotte, that's great. There were two Charlotte's involved with the KG Club, the first lesbian club in Auckland. So that's how we became Charlotte Museum Trust. We've, um, applied to the [00:02:00] charities and got registration. That was a bit slow, but we got there. Um, I think it was probably sitting on some legal officers desk who was having a bit of a problem with the lesbian part of it, but anyway, we got it through. So, um, and we've had no problems since. Let's just rewind a wee bit, because you you've covered some of the some really big things. Um, in the establishment of an archive or a museum, can you just take me back? And just first of all, describe [00:02:30] what is, um, is the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand and they collect books, magazines, papers and personal private letters and any information regarding lesbian, gay transgender people? Um, in New Zealand and so they weren't able to accept your subject. And what what's an object encompass? What is that? [00:03:00] Well, an object is a three dimensional thing, which, of course, does have certain requirements in terms of storage, and they are basically a paper archive. Really? Um, they do have a few badges and, um, posters of paper. Anyway, um, there are probably a few maybe T shirts or something that are significant that they may have from the very early times, but not the sort of things that we envisaged that would be lost in the realms of time that families would move into when a lesbian died [00:03:30] and probably just dump it all in a secondhand shot and have no idea of the meaning and significance of, you know, the first tea gay, liberation t-shirt or things like that that people have kept because they are significant. And they were. They represent a significant time in gay and lesbian lives in New Zealand. So prior to the Charlotte Museum, was there any other institution in New Zealand that was collecting specifically, um, queer objects? No. And in fact, the opposite was occurring [00:04:00] that when people mention people like Frances Hodgkins, they never mentioned her relationship with Dorothy Kate Richmond. Um, the relationship of, um, Catherine Mansfield. It's the same. So there is absolutely no L word mentioned in New Zealand museums until just very recently when there was a display in Papa and they managed to say the L word and mo. But what did do They were doing something on the 19 fifties, and they put the murder, the [00:04:30] Christchurch murder, uh, Museum of Transport and Technology in Auckland. And we felt a bit incensed about that, that we are only represented as murderers or, um, or part of the homosexual law reform, which we didn't get any rights out of that until much later. So, um, there are lots of other, particularly the lesbian culture, and people have often said, Well, why isn't there a gay men's museum? [00:05:00] What about gay men's culture? And I said, Well, it's much more accepted mainstream than lesbians there. There's a certain, um, allergy, I think, in the mainstream for lesbian, uh, some well known artists who are, in fact lesbian hide their lesbianism in the art world. Um, so it's yes, it's difficult, I think to. And for instance, if you want to see some, uh, some [00:05:30] gay men's work or art relating to gay men's lives, you in Auckland, you can just go to the homestead. Um, there's lots of falls there. There's, you know, there's a whole um, the collector obviously has a bent in that direction, and, um, whereas there's nothing like that for lesbians, Uh, I can't think of anywhere. I could suggest people go other than to somebody's Irish Irish garden, perhaps, is about the only thing around [00:06:00] that one could suggest might have an inkling of lesbianism. So, um, there there was nothing, and there is so little about our lives that it makes it very hard for young people to see any. Um, positiveness, like many lesbians have been because they didn't marry and they didn't have Children in the old days and often had a female companion. They did amazing things, but it's not recorded. We never [00:06:30] knew about, for instance, Amy Kane and Daisy Isaacs, and they set up the first professional theatre in New Zealand. But we didn't know that no one's pulled that information out until we did some research on early Lesbian Theatre, Um, and the same with music, where you discover this very, very avant garde composer musician who's a, um and she lives in America now. I think she was probably too avant garde for New Zealand who recorded drowning [00:07:00] pianos and burning pianos and near Lockwood, um, amazing, um, stuff she has done even recording the Danube. Now we didn't know she's very open as a lesbian, but we didn't know that until we did the research and found her. Um, and so one of the things that I feel that the Charlotte Museum has done is actually find things that were already being lost that had barely made the surface and [00:07:30] were going back down again. So prior to the establishment of the Charlotte Museum, were you personally collecting objects material? I did, Yes. I think my initial collection was really I was involved in lots of activism, so I had lots of badges, and I used to delight in working in the Mount Eden prison and wearing better gay than grumpy to work. Um, particularly because most of the prison officers were so homophobic that it wound them up a treat. [00:08:00] And they really had, uh, they were busy trying to do other things to us. So it was my counter. Um, but the objects I, um I I tended and my Children have tended to buy me things that are womanly like statues of women. And, oh, Mama like this and even my grandchildren. I mean, they were busy out shopping one day, and my, uh, she was only about five or 60, get that for me, Miriam. Get that for Miriam. She says to her father, because it was a It was [00:08:30] a, um a drink bottle that had a a nice dancing woman on. Um, so I suppose some of that was not really intentional. in the early days, I would just see something and like it and and But when I started to have a little bit of money, I for a long time I was really poor rearing five Children on my own and and not having much paying off a house, you know, the usual thing. So when I could buy a few nice, like a nice plate [00:09:00] or something that had a, uh, a woman on, I tended to do that as a little treat for myself for the few years that I was working full time. And that didn't last very long because of my health. So, um so I had these things. And then I thought, You know, um, everybody must have things and you go to women's houses and they are. They're full of bits and pieces and and some lesbian art. They tend to buy other lesbians work and so on. And I thought, that's all there's a whole There was a whole [00:09:30] era of seventies and eighties where we even had a dyke directory where you can get a a lesbian electrician, things like that, plumbers and so on. So all that's gone now we sort of so called assimilated and and, you know, incorporated into the great big world of society. But people still don't like the L word, and I think that era would be lost. No, no one would realise. I had some students come to the museum just the other day, and they were amazed that [00:10:00] women and it was just things about women that that there were no women in the ambulance service until 1982. Uh, my girlfriend at the time was trying to get into the ambulance service and waited for two years to get in. Uh, and of course, there was the whole controversy over the fire service. They upped the the physical fitness thing so high that even the men couldn't do it. I mean, they got ridiculous. Um, so there was all that going on in the eighties that people [00:10:30] didn't realise that, Um, and we're often asked, why did the lesbian clubs close down? And because the police raided them? Why did the police raid them? Lesbianism wasn't illegal, but women couldn't hold a licence to sell liquor. If you didn't sell liquor, you didn't get enough money in to pay the rent. So you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. Um, and nowadays, there aren't any lesbian clubs. Anyway, the rents are too high. Um, and mostly they have nights here and there using bar staff, [00:11:00] um, that are on the establishment, and the money all goes into the establishment and not to the lesbian community. Um, and people say, Well, why is the museum so poor? We don't even have a coordinator at the moment because we only got a 4000 grant and can't pay a coordinator with $4000 for a year. It's just stupid stuff, and and it is because we don't We're not a rich, commu community at all. People talk about the pink dollar Well, I think the lavender one is a bit tatty. And and [00:11:30] another thing right. The lesbian community itself, because it's poor, it's a third of them are rearing Children at any time, and often they're looking after elderly relatives, so they'll often give up full time job to do that. So there's, um yes, there's a whole lot of factors. Not only just the equity, uh, issues of, um, getting less pay for the same job. The outlines conference that you were talking about that kind of first sparked [00:12:00] the idea. When when was that? I think it was 2003 from my memory. And can you remember your reaction? Um, at the conference when you were wanting to present this material and and and suddenly found that you couldn't, I could understand, um because I had been to the old archives when they were in Bull Cott Street, you know, And that was fire bombed. And that's how it became involved or taken over really by the Alexander Turnbull Library. Made a space for the archives [00:12:30] because they were valuable. Well, someone was persuaded the government that they were valuable. I'm not sure that the whole government was behind it being considered valuable at the time. But, um, enough people were behind it and it got involved in the National Library and incorporated under the umbrella of the National Library. And so I could understand that there would be restrictions and so on, and I could see that we collecting paper is much easier than, [00:13:00] uh, objects. And then you have to have to keep just objects for their sake isn't quite as meaningful as displaying them. So that was really a museum. And I really didn't know what a museum needed. And so it's a bit like ignorance is bliss. If I sailed forth with this idea, then I could set it up and, you know, we could get some funding and someone would run it. And so that whole idea of of coming from the the conference in 2003, coming back [00:13:30] up to Auckland. What kind of idea did you have in your head? What was the initial thought? Oh, just maybe we could have a room somewhere. And I did put some feelers out to te papa, and I started to ask questions all around about what was involved as you do. I sort of was doing a bit of research and a papa visitor. You know, one of the visiting officers came to my house to see what sorts of things I was talking about, and and I made a little bit [00:14:00] of an inventory of what sorts of things that I could see go in it. Um, and I really felt that I was under scrutiny, that I might have some Maori artefacts or something. I felt that their focus was not on lesbian culture at all, but that I might somehow be transgressing some museum rule or something. Uh, that's how I felt at the time. I mean, it might not have been valid way of thinking, but it didn't [00:14:30] feel I didn't feel too welcomed. I think so. The person from te Papa was coming. There was two of them. They were coming to look at your collection with the eye that you were going to set up some kind of museum rather than deposit this material with Papa. Yes, that that had never occurred to me because many of the lesbians who had done work, um particularly like a ceramic volver or something, would be loath, perhaps to have them in a [00:15:00] public institution where there's no control over how they might be displayed. The other thing is when the sets of things, they will often break them up. And just so if ever the museum was taken over like by an institution like Auckland Museum or te Papa, they would put it in storage and they would fish out maybe pyro Cornell's stuff, which they were interested in. The the worker that I had of hers. Um, and just display that. And they wouldn't necessarily say that she was lesbian, of course, so it [00:15:30] would be lost and the whole meaning behind it, the sense of pride that young people get when they come to the museum. And wow, you know, they made that then and you know, it's you know, this and that. They lived like that and and, you know, they suddenly realise there's a history for them and that it really helps with their sense of pride and identity. You don't get that in institutions that are heterosexually based, and they won't interpret. The best thing I've ever seen [00:16:00] in Papa was a hint when they had a display of Frances Hodgkins work, and there was a hint that they had taken a piece of one of Francis's Hodgins letters where she was saying about it. They were going over to Europe, and she was so excited that she was going with Dorothy Kate Richmond, and now they've taken that snippet out of the letter. They could have taken other bits out of the letter about going to Europe, but they took that bit and I thought, Well, that curator is in the know and they've left that little bit. So it's a hint [00:16:30] that if we know we can pick up, but a young person wouldn't necessarily make that connection. They would have to know the history of Francis Hodgins to make that connection. So these little pieces then they might be small actually are enormous to a young person growing up. So for you, thinking about establishing the Charlotte Museum, where you was that large in your mind, it wasn't just about collecting objects. It was about how they were displayed [00:17:00] and how they were curated. It was much more about getting information out to young people. I did not want young people to be like I was without totally ignorant. And I think I've told you before, looked in the Encyclopaedia and saw that homosexuals had arrested development. So I thought they were all short. You know, that sort of, uh and it led to, you know, suicide attempts and things, So I don't want young people to be going through that. I certainly don't want to see any young Children, not even [00:17:30] not just my grandchildren, because they have plenty of, uh, models around them. But other Children who don't who live in small towns like I small country places, they don't have role models and they don't necessarily have information. And some of the information on the Internet, for instance, is too much based on sex and not really about living a life, Um, and and not so much about love. Even so, sometimes that misses the point. [00:18:00] So do you think it's really important at the start when you're even considering doing something like this to actually have a very strong idea about what you're actually wanting to achieve in terms of, you know, I'm collecting these objects? Why am I collecting them? What's it all about? For you? It was about it was to have it for future generations, that it wouldn't be lost and that there was a story there that would be helpful to the next generation, the next generation and so on. And that would have that [00:18:30] one would add to it as we went along so that it had so you would end up in 100 years time without, you know, 100 and 50 years of lesbianism in New Zealand, which would be marvellous because we don't have that currently we have bits and pieces. Did you have any national institutions like te papa, um, trying to bring your collection into their collections, or were they open about you having a separate space? They were quite open. They didn't offer for anything, because I don't [00:19:00] think it was meaningful to them. They saw bits of, you know, some nice glass pieces. And, um, we've had, of course, since we've had lots of some very special stuff donated to the museum like rep because of, um, the goddess figures from, um, the Natural History Museum in Vienna. So we have other things, Of course, that once we set up that have been added that people have donated some beautiful, um, pieces from Crete from the museum there. So, [00:19:30] uh, some lovely silverware that, um, uh, lesbian brought back when she was right into the sort of goddess movement and so on. And she has since moved on to something else and busy climbing the Himalayas. I think these days, So, uh, you know, she donated all this wonderful stuff, but, um, and we all are able to share it, so, um, it's grown since that first, the first bit They probably thought, Why did I have maybe 70 things? [00:20:00] It wasn't very much, really. But now you know we're up in the hundreds of of things and and one of the things that came out of it was the collection of music that we have all these vinyl records, and we don't just collect lesbian music. We have many, many women's records because most of the lesbians collected lots of women's. But then we've got Fleetwood Mac and so on. And we held these Lizzy tune nights and people said, Oh, you know, pull out, play this I fell in love with So and so then and you get all [00:20:30] these stories wonderful stories of of, um, you know, love and and And I guess lesbians are very romantic, Really. They are about love. I mean, that's that's what's most meaningful. I mean, we have a thing that was last night, actually, which is why I'm with the time dykes on mics. And so I mean, I often tell them a story and and, um, And last night I was able to just say about the passing of a musician [00:21:00] who died last week in, and I thought no one's heard her play this song. I heard her play them in the seventies and and they were just They are so lesbian. I mean, she was told at the time, You can't send those. They're too sexual. Um, and one of them goes, Never put your finger in a dike. Never put your finger unless you want to linger. You could be stuck there all your life because a dike don't run, roll over and say, That's it, baby, be on your way A dike. He will turn the other cheek. Baby, [00:21:30] you could be there for a week. Now that is a very, very lesbian song. There's no two ways about it. Um, and and it's lost in the real time. Because when I I interviewed her with Andrew Whiteside two years ago for a film we made on lesbian music and she couldn't really remember the words until I reminded her what they were because I had fortunately written them down and I had written down another song about It's been a pleasure. Come again, Come, come around for afternoon tea or something. [00:22:00] But I haven't got all the words to that. And she couldn't remember that one at all, and she couldn't really. I did try and remind her of the tune of it, but she did remember the Put the finger in the dark one and she sang it for us. So we do have her singing it on at the end of that film, which is just stunning, that we have that, um, but there's a lot, a lot of other things that we will have lost. Many of the lesbians who wrote music in the seventies and eighties and there was a and Hazel actually said that it was [00:22:30] like a rallying call for the community. And it was, I mean, you just went everywhere where there was a concert or where someone was playing, who was lesbian and all the lesbians would turn up, you know, wherever it was. And it was a bit like a rallying call for a community at the time, and many of those songs are lost. You know, people have moved on. They got proper jobs and, um, they, their scraps of paper or cigarette boxes that they wrote their music on ha ha are lost, and it's [00:23:00] a bit like the top ones. So much was in their heads and working with the SYMPHONIA, they had to learn that someone had to write the music the script down so the orchestra could play it. Um, so I think the top ones are very, uh, are a good example of actually how much of our music could be lost and probably is lost. So things like dykes on mics does that, um, that that's another way of passing down history, isn't it? Through [00:23:30] oral traditions, does the Charlotte Museum have any part of of of that kind of thing? Well, yes. Um, our Sy Tunes night do that in a different way by using music that's recorded, um, and people talking about why it's significant for them. And you know how they played a a lesbian, like when the word lesbian was first on a recorded music. The gay women, the sporty sort of dikes who didn't ever use the word lesbian? No, no, no. [00:24:00] This is in their seventies. They were shocked to hear someone like Alex Dogan raunch out the word lesbian. Any woman can be a lesbian. I mean, they they drank their beer rather quickly. I noticed, um, so even. I mean, we were homophobic ourselves, and that internalised homophobia means that even today, there are lesbians who do not like the word lesbian. So it wasn't just the female companions that we often call [00:24:30] women who lived with other women. In the early times it was many, many other women, and still, today, they they slide around that word. It obviously doesn't necessarily have the positive connotations it has for me because I discovered it and, you know, with feminism. So it was sort of together with feminism, and I both liked the both the words, so it had no negative connotations for me at all. I know I also had a background, of course, that my parents are into [00:25:00] Greek literature and stuff, so that probably helped elevate the word for me. But I think for many others, it's not such a grand word. Just getting back to the the whole National institution coming in and looking at your collection. Do you think if I was a small uh, or or if I had a small collection of material, do you think there is a benefit from a large national institution taking on that? It [00:25:30] only would be if they had a vested interest in it. And most large institutions don't have vested interests in gay and lesbian issues. Um, or our history. Um, they might have a vested interest if it was a criminal museum. Of course, I'm focusing on all that aspect or or a criminal display, for instance, and they would use us as, um as part of their display. But it wouldn't necessarily, um, be like one of the functions of a museum [00:26:00] is about identity, national identity. But it's also about personal identity, which is tied up with national, your sense of national identity. And, uh, a large institutions only concentrate on the national identity and not on anything personal. And I think that's where we still have high suicide rates amongst our young gay and lesbians. Because we have overlooked that, that we have not provided them with mentors and with a sense of history. So I still feel quite strongly [00:26:30] about that. Unfortunately, I'm probably be singing it to my grave. So after that visit from te Papa, What What happened next? What? What was the next step for for you? That must have been around about 202,006. I think. And I was already in the process of writing, uh, some policies and and documents and getting a trustee and getting I belong to. I was on other trusts. So it was fairly easy for me to get a lawyer who was on the trust board of another trust [00:27:00] to run over my trust deed. I just taken one off the net. That was, uh, had lots of, um, you know, I'd had the titles in both English and Maori, so I felt it was a good enough. Trusted. And I just changed the principles to what I thought we needed that we our core values, should have been collecting lesbian things. Um, maybe a bit of feminist stuff, but the emphasis is really lesbian and protecting them, conserving them, [00:27:30] classifying them, you know, recording history about them, um, for future generations. And basically that vision stayed the same. It's it's, um So I suppose I didn't really consult with many people at all. Um, because I just looked up things on the net for other institutions. And interestingly, I think it might be a Melbourne museum. Somebody over there. I. I think it was a gay man. Definitely [00:28:00] the way it's written, wrote a beautiful piece about challenging music museums to display gay and lesbian things with gay and lesbian sort of titles and so on to make it clear they were lesbian or gay. And I thought that was a wonderful piece, and I started to write up some stuff about feasibility and and so I did a feasibility sort of study and an assessment of what we would need, and I could see that at the lower end of the scale, all we needed was actually a room to put [00:28:30] displays on and a little bit of storage space and maybe a maybe even operate only once a month that it was open so you could start on that scale. I mean, currently, we're open for the public two days a week, but it's also open by appointment so people can come and visit any time. They just have to ring the phone number and and, uh, I usually go and open it up, or I arrange for somebody else to go and do that. So and that's without any coordinator, because we lost our funding for the coordinator. As you said [00:29:00] before, 4000 doesn't last for a year, and nobody can live on it. So, um, we're still So we're operating very much at this point in vol. As volunteers at the startup. Was it just yourself, or were you opening it up to kind of some kind of community involvement or community discussion? I certainly I invited people. Um, I talked about it with lots of my friends. I selected carefully selected trustees who would [00:29:30] be good at governance. There were lots of trustees or lots of potential trustees who were very interested in the concept of a museum and saw lots of possibilities of different things that they were interested in. But I felt that they didn't have the skills and governance that I was looking for. Um, and I wanted someone with, um So I chose someone who was a a teacher in a private school but who had had experience in England, [00:30:00] Um, in negotiating that whole the whole lesbian world in a in a much more homophobic environment. So I thought she would be good to counter me being out front, you know, lesbian all over me to something a bit more moderate. And I used my daughter because so much of the first part of the collection was my own personal things. Um, and I thought if I dropped dead in the first [00:30:30] few years, I needed to have a trustee and I'd lent my daughter some money. So the arrangement was that if I dropped dead, she could pay someone to do what I was doing so that it wasn't lost because of that period of time, so that there would be enough money she would pay back to the museum instead of to the dead meat or to her brothers. So that was the arrangement, Um, so that we could get it established. Um, so she's [00:31:00] on the trust board and then, um, another friend of mine who's good with governance, who had been a public servant for many years, Um, who also is fluent in German, which is useful because we do have a number of German magazines, and so on part of my collection, um, Paula Wallace. And then, um, we have someone who's got a a PhD in archaeology. Um, and since then, we've got sissy on board and Denise Yates, who is the chair of the local board. So [00:31:30] we've expanded our trustees, but always with the sight of good governance. Um, and sadly, Christine went and worked in Australia. And so she did stay on the board for another year or so and then decided she was permanently going to be over there. So she went off the board. So what makes good governance? People who understand the necessity to do things on time that particularly with the charities, the charities, um, trust [00:32:00] is, um, very strict in terms of how you're getting your annual audited account. And that's quite difficult when you have no money to pay an auditor and you're leaning on the good will of some accountant friend of a friend of a friend. It it's tricky to get those things done on time. Also, that that we needed to have a lot of policies and they needed to be, Um, yeah, they needed [00:32:30] to be really clear what the policies. I think we've written something like 65 68 policies altogether. What did that cover? They cover, Ah, enormous number of things. There's health and safety. There's security, there's financial. There's a whole lot of governance policies like, um, finance about acquisitions, about de acquisition and things. You know, if you've been given a whole lot of things and you might actually fill out an acquisition sheet for them all and then you realise Well, no, This has no relevance to lesbianism. So you [00:33:00] want to de aquisition it? Um, in fact, it's better not to acquisition it in the first place. So, um, rules around those sort of things. Um, conservation rules, cataloguing rules. We even have a lesbian policy to make sure everyone understands what we mean by a lesbian. Um, we also have, uh I think the library and the knowledge policy are now we join those together. I think we've got an education policy. We've got a I don't know, it just goes on and on. [00:33:30] So, hospitality policy, You know that that bank of policies, where did they all come from? Did you realise at the start that you would need those many? No. I didn't realise we needed that number. Um, the te papa standards is a good guideline. Um, but by the time we started to work our way through the standards, we actually had most of those other policies in place. Because as soon as I hit a problem, I would then think, Oh, we need it. And we need a policy on this because so that if I have to tell someone something, [00:34:00] then I think, Well, we probably need a policy. We need to have that written down. And you call that if you write something down the instructions for something, you call it a policy. Fortunately, um, one of our trustees is the chief policy advisor for the Historic Places Trust. So that's been excellent in terms that I would lift policies off the net, change it for the Charlotte Museum. Um, you know, take out Melbourne Museum, put in Charlotte Museum, that sort of thing, tidy it up, make sure it was more appropriate to New Zealand and then whisk it off to [00:34:30] to, um, the trustees to read over and check and see what they thought. And they improved the English because my English is not that good. And then we'd have it in in place, and then they we rechecked those when we employed. We managed to get some funding to employ someone to go over the standards, and she checked all our policies. She had a law background, and so she tightened them up even further with some of the legal issues that we could have been a problem. So do you think in hindsight, would you have got [00:35:00] all that material in place before you establish the museum? Or is it OK in a valid way of just doing it as it kind of comes up? I think it's better to do it as it comes up because you've got it's more practical. Otherwise, you'll have a whole lot of theory and no one will read it. But if you've had a problem and you've written something about the problem, then it's practical. Everybody knows why that policy is there and what it covers and why we need [00:35:30] it. Basically, you know, when I first when we first started and was in the first building, we would get boxes left at our door full of broad sheets. We could have drowned in broadsheets, but no, we systematically went through and tried to keep two copies of every broadsheet and one or two. We kept three. The very early ones. We kept all that we were given. We were not given a lot of those, but the middle range. There were boxes and boxes of them. [00:36:00] And so we had them free to go to home. We gave them to students and and so on. So we sort of banded them around. We never threw any out unless they were very badly damaged. Um, but we've kept pretty much two copies of every broadsheet, and they are a great resource. Even though it was a feminist magazine, there was enough lesbian stuff in them on a regular basis to, uh, be of interest to us. And and also, lesbians advertise things. So, like the lesbian ball. Um, whereas the lesbian magazines were hit and [00:36:30] miss apart from circle that ran the longest, and we pretty much have a full set of circle, I think we might be short of one. Somehow, I think we might have got a photocopy from of one of one, on the very early ones. So do you think a lot of the initial success of the museum was down to selecting the right trustees for the trust? Was that a crucial thing? I think that's crucial. Um, because [00:37:00] you don't want to have, um Also, the other thing might have been my influence in terms that I was the driving force. I had the vision and none of the others really had the vision of what it would even look like. When we first started, they weren't quite sure they had come to my house. Of course, they knew my house was full of stuff. And so it was a bit like a museum itself. So [00:37:30] after that, when I first set it up in this lovely white room, it was 100 square metres. It was a big room, and we sealed off part of it with the, you know, the resources behind out of sight and made a display wall at the back of the bookcases. So we bookcases facing that. And that idea. I mean, they were all creative ideas that I came up with because of this number 81 mentality. I have. So, um, though I did meet an Austrian who [00:38:00] solved one of our problems, he was as good as me. Don't, right wine. And we used wire to hang up a carving on a pipe. Um uh, so, yes. Um I think because I had the vision and the driving force that stirred them along and they tended to leave the displays to me. They just concentrated on on the governance and what we needed to do. And to start with, it was a little bit like rubber stamping. They trusted me that I wouldn't run foul [00:38:30] of anything because it was so much my vision to do this. And I think that probably helped it gave them confidence. Um, one of the problems in, uh, like, for instance, leasing a space because you're a charitable trust. No one will lease a space to you unless you have a guarantor. So I personally went guarantor for the rent each time, and I'll probably still do that in the next place. Um, even [00:39:00] though my resources are are dwindling. Um, but so there's those sorts of things that people who still got mortgages and so on would be very loathe to put their hand up to be a guarantor. So, uh, there are some governance problems that could arise for a group setting up. If someone was sitting trying to set up a museum, Why did you think trust? Why trust you need less people, incorporated societies. It's very hard. I belong to a trust. It's now a trust [00:39:30] that was an incorporated society and a AG MS are a nightmare. When, uh, the first year I was at the museum, you asked me before about community involvement. I talked to many, many people around that time, and I had a small group that dwindled away once works wasn't required. Um, and another other people came on, and people have come and gone. I've had a range of volunteers over the time, and each each of them have learned a lot about museums in that time. Um, but other things crop up, um, [00:40:00] and they move away, but the community involvement. But I decided that we should have a sort of, like an a GM, maybe and and invite the community to say, you know, what do you like? What do you don't like? What could we be offering? More? Because we we're holding two or three events a month. A lot of events, Actually, it exhausted me. Um, and nobody came. I think one person, [00:40:30] one meeting, Certainly. Only one person came from the community. She goes to most things, um, and she writes for the local lesbian newsletter so that I thought people and most people said Look, we like what you've done. We we we're quite happy. We don't have the only suggestions that people have had. So we've done market surveys. We've surveyed people. Uh, we've, um We put a lot of effort into surveying. I mean, the only thing they came up with that they'd like was a cafe. [00:41:00] Well, it was a bit beyond us, but we've got five tables folding tables. So we we've got chairs, so we're working on that to get the furniture. And I looked up how much it cost to train a barista, But then there's a jump. You need us to pay someone you need a certain amount of. So I suppose we could train a coordinator to be a barista and serve coffee on the side. That's probably how it would come about, and that's a possibility that it's still out there. [00:41:30] So, um, so the community has made some suggestions, but they haven't made a lot of suggestions. They've been quite good at pointing out spelling mistakes on the wall. And that's good, because I, I don't see them one. But dyslexia had a stroke years ago, so, um and, uh, but sometimes they don't realise they can say, Oh, I'll prove stuff, but you send it to them and they'll take two or three weeks to proofread what's only just 400 words? [00:42:00] And we've got a deadline with a printer or something to get the money spent so that we can do the accountability and a certain amount of time for the funder and they don't realise those things. And it's really hard to say. Well, look, you know, I'm sorry. It has to be done very quickly. So, uh, that that sort of poses problems. Was there any other, uh, alternative to being a trust or a incorporated society? Was there any other option for being some other kind of structure? [00:42:30] Not really. Not to get funding. The crucial thing about a trust is that that, um you needed to have a trust and a worthy trust board with nobody with bad credentials so that, um, you could get funding, particularly from a lotteries and gaming trust and so on. Um and while on the one hand, you know, because we have a political arm of lesbians who think it's really bad to use money from gaming gambling, on [00:43:00] the other hand, I see lesbians gambling all the time, and I think, well, other people are using that money. Um, if they don't want to put it into the to the lesbian community, well, at least we can claw some of it back for lesbian community A things. So on the one hand, I don't like gambling, and I hardly ever buy a lotto ticket. Even the odds are just dreadful. So, um, too much of a scientific background, I think. But, you [00:43:30] know, there is very little other money around for, particularly for us. And one thing I suppose we have done is educate all the middle aged white male businessmen in the country who sit on the boards of gaming trusts that we're out there and we're surviving. And, um and some of them have given us money for various things. And so and we've been very good at doing the accountability and returning any money we didn't spend because it came [00:44:00] in cheaper than we quoted. And, um so they they have been educated that we're out there. So could you take me through the the the kind of timeline you've You've had the idea of the museum you've developed a trust is that when it becomes a charitable trust, is that and how long did that take to apply for? Um, I think we did it in 2006. Sent it in, maybe at the end of 2006, and [00:44:30] we got it in May 2007. Uh, at the beginning of 2007, we had our first exhibition. Um, and I just pulled all the posters that I had around in my house, unrolled them, put them into frames that I also took out other things out of, uh, framed as many as I could and hung them at at, uh, down the passage way of the gallery. Who was putting on a thing called the D thing for hero. So that was our first exhibition to make us put us on the [00:45:00] on the planet. Really? And that was before we became the trust. So we did the exhibition and then became a trust. And then I concentrated on applying for funding. So the initial idea at 2003, 1st exhibition in 2007. How did you keep the momentum going? Between 2003 and 2007. Well, it wasn't really going. It was smouldering. Um, I was busy. 2003 cleaning up [00:45:30] my house. Um, I then proceeded to put everything up I had in storage, sold the house because the money was crazy and went to Greece. And so I travelled. Yeah. So really, 2006, I was back, bought a house with my son who's bought a bit of my house. Um, And and that was when I unpacked [00:46:00] everything and I had all this stuff out. And that was, of course, when came to visit and so on. And so it's probably when I unpacked everything I probably that was the momentum because I've only just got, uh Well, I think I'm at the bottom of the boxes that some of them were packed up in 1994 when I sold the family home where the Children had grown up. So they've been lugged around. I'm good at lugging stuff around. In fact, I've just retrieved some books that were stored under [00:46:30] the stairs of a friend who's just got her house on the market down in Hamilton. So I lugged all those back home, you think? Oh, they're all about sexual abuse. So I've got to distribute those. And they were many lesbian. Oh, there was a complete set of Naomi Jacob that somebody had collected. And I'm looking for somebody who wants to read Naomi Jacob to see whether there's a lesbian subtext in her books, because she was openly lesbian in England but not she didn't seem to write. There's been stories at all so and in that time, of course, [00:47:00] there was a lot of censorship and stuff. Um, so I've got lots of interesting projects for other people to do because I haven't got time. I'm running out of running out of life, running out of time to do all them myself. Do you think having like a number of years between having the initial idea and actually having it kind of form is actually a really useful a useful thing so that you can actually kind of just kind of meditate on the idea of actually what you're forming, or is it better to have, like, a very short [00:47:30] burst of energy to get it up there and get it established? Well, that's interesting, because you often think as a particularly working as an artist that you you get an idea, and suddenly you've got all this energy for this idea and you work day and night because you just can't leave it alone. You wake up at night and I've got to put the paint in there and there. And you know, that sort of frenetic often is quite frenetic behaviour of, uh, not all artists work like that, but certainly a number that I know do. And I tend to be [00:48:00] like that. Um, I don't know that one could ever give advice that you should mull over it for a long period of time, or you go with the energy and the flow that you've got because basically, you do have to have energy, um, and enthusiasm and And I've had a lot of that, and, um, I've worn out probably a few volunteers because I've been so energetic. I don't think I'm probably the easiest person to work with because I've had the vision and I also want to work quickly. I am not a not [00:48:30] really a plotter. I can plod, but I really like to, um, get stuck in and get things done. So I get frustrated when people keep having morning and afternoon tea breaks and stuff. So I'm not a good employee. Yeah, really. And that's an interesting point about the whole kind of, uh, personal professional relationships you have when you're first starting out in terms of, you know, uh, like I'm assuming with this museum because it's it's very [00:49:00] much driven by yourself. The idea to get beyond one person's vision or get beyond yourself. I mean, were there any kind of conflicts with people wanting to support a museum? But maybe not wanting to support you? No, There's never been any conflict the conflict has been for me to. I did not want it to be out there and New Zealand's full of one people bands. That's how things happen in New Zealand. One person has a vision and they go off and do it. [00:49:30] And then when they die, the vision pulls over. We've seen it so many times, and I didn't want that to happen. Um, and I wanted to. That's why the whole thing with my daughter about the and my will is to try and make it sustainable, and that's why I want an employee. E. I want some driving force who has it as a job who So we've got enough money to pay a coordinator who then has a vested interest in keeping the job someone who who has a passion [00:50:00] about history and museums and is lesbian. Um, and there must be people out there. Um, but there are also the ups and downs of employment that's we've had somebody who was who's right into archives and history and so on. But we couldn't keep her on because of the funding. And that's the tricky part, really. I think we could sustain a Sunday afternoon thing [00:50:30] possibly. But then again, you would have to have one person driving because or maybe two or three or a couple, that sort of thing and that's a possibility. I hope we don't end up down that track, but we could do because of the funding situation. But I really I it makes me cross. Sometimes when I think that Auckland City two or three years ago spent 14 million on museums, we should get 5% [00:51:00] of that if we're 5% of the population and they won't count us So how can we argue anything different? Um, so there is a lot of inequality that and it would be different if, uh, all these other museums were had bits and pieces about lesbianism, but they don't. They would trot it out for one little silly one little simple display and then pack it away again because it might upset somebody. It might upset one of their benefactors. [00:51:30] That's what people worry about, that it upsets a benefactor to have too much lesbian stuff around. If you can find a more difficult topic and set up like a lesbian museum, let me know I'll switch. I've gone from hard topic to, you know, I get harder and harder all the time. I think I might have come to the end of hard topics. I think I need to retire. So what are some of the other tips you could give [00:52:00] me? Um, for moving something from a one person set up to a broader thing that will be sustainable. We're trying to involve more people from the community, and that's why I persistently, um, had lots of events of different sorts to try and get a range of people coming to the museum, not just to pay one visit. And now I've been to the museum, and that's it. But to come back again, to see new displays, to see, um to take an interest [00:52:30] in some aspect, whether it's music or art or poetry or reading or or film or whatever. Yeah, we've never done any research on lesbian film in New Zealand. I mean, that's a big topic in itself, and it would be great if we could get some funding. But the burden of funding and following it up, making sure you tick all the boxes, the accountability and so on are very stringent. And I didn't realise how difficult it was when you [00:53:00] apply. When we did the music one, for instance, I had to use my own money to get that money released for us. I had to put my own money in to say that we had them to prove that we had enough money to for the project to go ahead because they allocated the money to us. But they wouldn't release it until we had all the money for the project. Well, it takes time for, and I was busy trying to run things rather than be out there running raffles or doing buckets on the street and so on. [00:53:30] So in the end, I put I think it was about 2. 5 1000 I put in to make it happen to release that other money. Well, that shouldn't shouldn't be like that. It should not be tied to getting the whole amount, because, especially in a research project like that, there are often ways that you might be able to reduce the costs a little later on when you see that. Or as we found out, there was no point in going to Dunedin and the person wasn't there, so that was an air flight that we had thought about. And and we changed [00:54:00] all that and the travel. They were still arguing over travel to Hamilton. And so I had all these petrol vouchers. So I photocopied all the petrol vouchers and sent that down as proof that we had money for travel. I just an enormous waste of time, Um, particularly when you feel that you're running out of life and that you need to get these things set up and done. And as it was in that project, two people died. And since making the film, [00:54:30] two more have died. We're running out of time and and they seem to make it hard for us. And whether it's because of their lesbian word or not, it's difficult to know. I'm not sure how hard they make it for others. You don't have time to we network a bit, but you don't have time to network enough to get the difficulties that people have with certain funders, whereas other funders it's very clear cut that they apply. It might be the whole amount of the grant, but they don't care [00:55:00] whether you've got the money for the rest. As long as you spend the money on what you said and return back. And I like that sort of system, I don't like the sort of almost feeling blackmailed into providing the whole amount of money before you can even start. I mean, that's bureaucracy, Bo. So how much time would you be spending on funding applications when I, um in 2008, 2009? The amount of time I actually spent on the museum was probably about 70 hours a week. [00:55:30] I've whittled it down now, and I probably am doing possibly a 20 hour week, but I don't want to be doing that, but I don't have anyone else to do it. Um, and that's the problem. Um, so it's still still weighing on me, and I'm going away to Berlin. I've fallen in love and, um, very, very happy. And I'm going to spend some time in Berlin from May to September. [00:56:00] So it has to function without me pretty much I will arrange for the GST either to be delayed, or I can get someone to do that. Probably. Um, I will do some work over the Internet, of course. I mean, with my email. Um, because I certainly don't want any difficulties on governance issues and so on. So, like, GST. Or if we're paying someone, um, then there's PAYE that has to go in every month, and that can be tricky for people to weigh their way through that. So, [00:56:30] um yeah, and paying bills and things like that. So all that has to be organised that I Currently I do all what the treasurer would normally do in an organisation as well as the the secretarial work so the trustees really depend on me to keep all that and just report back to them. We've spent this much and we need to cut back on whatever. We need more money, most as the call. So, [00:57:00] um, yeah, it's it's difficult to move it on to having, um because when I look at other trusts, I'm on, um, the CEO or director. And I mean, basically, they're just like a coordinator. We just use the word coordinator because the emphasis is on coordinating volunteers. Um, whatever you call the person who runs the place, they tend to be one people places because you can't afford any more staff you might have if [00:57:30] you're lucky. They've got one in the office, um, part time in the office, and, um, and a director. And mostly that's all you have and all the organisations that have a one person, a paid person. It tends to be one person, or you might have an education officer, so you have two more, and that means it's very fragile, a very fragile organisation, because if you don't do the funding, if you don't, if you lose that [00:58:00] person, then you fall over and you you can see that happening with lots of gay organisations. What's your ideal situation in terms of staffing? In terms of compliment of people, the ideal would be probably a part time coordinator, not necessarily full time, But I would think at least say, 30 hours a week. And maybe a researcher paid for, um, either [00:58:30] for a set project, but probably just, um so many hours a week. You know, um that so possibly say a 30 If you had a 40 hour a week salary and you spend it on 30 hours for a coordinator and 10 hours for a researcher who was possibly retired or at, um or had health reasons, maybe was on sickness benefit and couldn't do very much, but was interested in doing some research and fossick around and, uh, over at the Auckland [00:59:00] Museum on things like that, that sort of that that that would be quite good. And some volunteers that would be the minimum, really, to to make it sustainable, I think I suppose the ideal would be, um, a person, maybe a 40 hour a week coordinator and a, um uh, maybe a 30 hour a week research slash education [00:59:30] officer or maybe 21 researcher, one education officer, like three people in the office. And, um, you lose time with the talking and discussions around the tasks and so on. But then again, you gain from more input. But usually this. We've had a few cataloguing days where we've had a number of people and they worked in peers cataloguing one, taking out the works with the gloves on and one doing the cataloguing. So all working all on different laptops and so on. And we managed to get a lot [01:00:00] of the things catalogued. Um, and I was interested to find that, you know, Auckland museums miles behind on cataloguing what they have and so on. They don't even know what they've got in some places. So we don't feel so bad that we haven't done all our C DS and because we've got massive cassettes and we haven't started on them. But, um, we've got all our almost all our posters catalogued. It's only a few that have come in recently that are not and, uh, all the objects are catalogued and also numbered, and they've got little numbers on them with the special [01:00:30] paper and the special glue. So we've gone to our workshops and we've done all that. So, you know, we're we're feeling quite good about that. And to get it this far and then be stuck with no funding for a person to run, it is a bit sad. That's one of the issues I'd like to take up with the City Council. We don't not asking our budgets. 50,000. We're not asking for a lot of money in Super City when they can spend so much on rugby. Just drive nuts. [01:01:00] But I won't go there. So is it important for you to have volunteers to have that community involvement? Yes, I think so. I think that, um and there's lots of things, like one of the things that you know, just having some people to help out at events, to do the hospitality, make a pot of tea or pour the wine or whatever you know that you're doing. Um, that sort of thing we might, you know, bring along a plate. All those sorts of things give a sense of being involved in community, and it [01:01:30] it gives people an opportunity to be involved in something because so often you know the old bring a plate. You know, ladies, a plate sort of stuff's gone down the Googler. Now people pay big money to get little canopies that are worth nothing. I just I'm just amazed at how much is spent on catering that, you know, a can of chickpeas was down in the kitchen with, and a few crackers would have done the trick. So can you describe some of the other [01:02:00] events that you've used to kind of pull in community and get them interested? Well, we've had, um, Deb Filler, who comes over to see her mother regularly. So we've had her come to the museum a couple of times. She opened the new premises. She also talked about the theatre, and she did a bit of a prelude. Um, some of her own work. Um, we've had So we've had people like that who speak. We've done. We always on ANZAC Day. We've [01:02:30] done something. So we've had someone who was in the Air Force military police before she came out. Um, she talked about, you know, working there and having to search people's underwear, drawers and so on looking for photographs. And she found that so distasteful that it wasn't very long before she resigned, left her marriage and came out as a lesbian, you know, So that whole you know, that was really a fascinating oral [01:03:00] story that she gave us. And we were people are still talking about it. And she was searching for some for evidence of lesbian relationship and getting and destroying it. Well, no, they they she was ordered to find it. She found that so distasteful that it was very difficult. But of course, what was that? That would have been in the seventies. She's trying to think how old she is. It might have been actually in the [01:03:30] eighties. We have her jacket. It's interesting that, uh, on display, we usually have Daisy dressed in an Australian uniform because, um, the Australian government has gladly given us a Australian majors uniform for Major Lee Easterbrook, who they chucked out the Australian army for being a lesbian. And then when they changed the rules, they wanted her back again, but she wouldn't go back. She only joined the Territorials, but she does do a lot of training in that [01:04:00] in the territories, but she's very highly regarded by the Australian Army, and they were very happy to give us a complete kit. Um, I wrote to the museum hoping that they might have some stories about lesbians down there. It took them a year to answer my letter. I think we've got a little bit a way to go with the forces here. We have visited the Navy Museum. We have a good relationship with them, but they haven't sort of uncovered any thing. I do know lesbians who were in the Navy, but nothing has been coming forthcoming, [01:04:30] but, um, but we offset that for ANZAC Day, too. But also, we've had, uh, a talk about the praises who taught who went from to Gisborne pushing prams with their musical instruments on the prams, Um uh, promoting nuclear free New Zealand. And that was in 1981. So we've had them, and lots of people from the peace movement came at what some of those are ways of getting the public to come to an event. The public will come on an open day occasionally, but [01:05:00] lately we haven't had many because we're a bit hidden where we are. Um, but some of those open events they'll come like the historical societies we had. Uh, we gave a talk to her and invited all the historical societies to come about how we collected information. Um, but halfway through, uh, some elderly women got up and said, Oh, we didn't realise it was just sort of a museum and left, um, so it shows where where people are at. It's still a process and so on. So, um, but they missed out on asparagus rolls. It's a bit sad. We always [01:05:30] make asparagus rolls at every event because they're easy to make. They're popular, and they're a bit nostalgic for people. I can't even eat them, but I make them because I can't eat wheat. So other events Oh, we've had we've run a clown workshop. We've, um, other things. We we've, uh, done a graphic draw. We've done a life drawing class. That was more difficult because we couldn't use the museum, but we just snuck into a room that was empty next [01:06:00] door. So that's how we got around that, because the graphic dust would be too difficult to deal with the museum. So, um, we did learn from that that there are limitations to what we can do in terms of workshops. I would like to do a button making workshop, sort of to celebrate activism. People could come along and make buttons, but we need to raise some money to buy a button maker and, you know, a badge maker sort of thing. Um, so that's one of the one of the things in the pipeline. It's really interesting because a lot of those events [01:06:30] are taking, um, historic objects and then doing a current contemporary activity around that that that that that's what we try and do. You know, um, to make it sort of a little a little more relevant, but with always some historical background. And And we celebrated, for instance, T who We've taken a song of hers, Um, which is, um, a song to [01:07:00] her female lover. Um, we've taken that as our and we celebrated her Centenary. Um, and we and I think a bit of over in, um, Bay were the only people who sort of recognised her Centenary, which I thought she was. She was a composer of songs for the Maori battalion, and she also won the golden shares when she was 51. and so 1961. I think it was 21. And [01:07:30] she is so, you know, a remarkable woman. And, um but people don't emphasise. We have a beautiful photo of her with a hat and a man's coat on, and it's just stunning. Um, and it's those sorts of things, you know, People just hone in on that photograph. They see her in a Maori, um um dress and so on. But it's that photo where she's with other friends dressed a day at the races or something that she wore very much male clothing to the races. Uh, appeals [01:08:00] to people about, um and of course, um, we have a quote from who wrote about her And so, um, as one of the aunties and sort of, um so we quote that as well, so pulling those pieces out, but it all takes time. And that's why you need a researcher, really, all the time to to look for things and so on to make to all your displays have to have a lot of research. And, um, and most of them I've done, um, I've had [01:08:30] somebody doing research on theatre in a book sport in a book. And, uh, theatre music and sport are the three that we've had, Um, some research money and people, but, uh, they're still the main display. I've, um, not the sports display. The other woman did that, uh, Jan Brown did that. So it's still quite time consuming to to get it down to less than 400 words. I sort of aim for now because the I think [01:09:00] the poor papa visitor came and then he found out that he found that he was a bit overwhelmed with the amount of, uh, words on the wall. I think it is a bit too wordy you mentioned just before about bringing general audiences into the museum. And I'm just wondering, are there any restrictions on who can actually visit the museum and access the material? None whatsoever. Unless someone has deposited something, [01:09:30] um, that they would not want anybody else. So everybody signs a form to say that their name that they agree that their name is next to the object they've donated. Um, and that they don't mind if the say a television crew came in and I put it on TV one news because of some reason We haven't been so lucky to get that publicity, but we're working on it. Um, so that sort of thing. So people don't, um when people will have letters [01:10:00] or something, we suggest they send those to LA And I have some stuff that I've collected now from two women who've died, Um, that I want to send to LA Gas. But until they've set up again, I thought, it'll just be sitting down there. I'll just keep it and add to it and so on, so that I've got a good package when I send it off to them. Because I'm sure when I get to the bottom of some of my last boxes, I might find some more bits and pieces that have been going, you know, letters. I've been going through all the [01:10:30] letters that I've kept kept letters for many years. I'm a bit of a hoarder. What about in terms of the community reaction to the museum in general when it was first put forward as an idea, How did the community respond? People thought that's a good idea. Um, and to to start with when we asked [01:11:00] for money. Um, from the community, some people were very generous and wrote out checks for hundreds of dollars. Um, and other people, Um interestingly enough, some of the people who were more, more, well healed gave us 10, which is probably why they were more well heeled. But overall, it's, um you know that there's been a positive response, but because I'm so well known in the community, and I do have a certain respect because of the difficult [01:11:30] issues that I've dealt with and the support I've given people who've been raped and and, um, sexually abused and so on. So I think that I don't tend to certainly not in Auckland. I don't tend to get that flat. I get some political flack in Wellington for not crossing TS and dotting I's and and doing things that aren't quite PC, I suppose. But, um, I don't get that from Auckland because of my involvement [01:12:00] in the community and what I do. And I worked for a long time in the AIDS Foundation as a uh as a trustee. Um, and there wasn't a real like people questioned my input in that as a lesbian. Why was I and I said because if it gets in the heterosexual community. A lot of Children will get AIDS because a lot of Children are raped and we don't realise how many. Um, but if it's something like one and three before the age of 16, [01:12:30] that's going to be a lot of Children that could be at risk. So that was one of the reasons I as well as the whole the thing, that it was the sort of disease that was going to be get out of hand very easily if we didn't step in. And I thought in New Zealand we had the chance of doing something, Um, because we were a small enough country. I also sort of thought we could do something about child abuse back in the seventies because we were a small country. But I failed miserably, and I often get very despondent about that. [01:13:00] The awareness and all the work that I did in the seventies and eighties and nineties has been for naught, really, that the figures have not reduced, even though I think the middle class have improved their child rearing the bottom hasn't so, um but that so I think because I've worked in those difficult areas that I do engender a certain respect and there might be disagreements with the whole idea. Um, there [01:13:30] certainly was mixed feelings about having a memorial pole. And we've since moved that out of the main viewing area and decided that a memorial booklet. So that was one idea I had that I liked, Um, that didn't work quite so well because it was too raw for some people. Um, their own ideas, their own feeling of their own mortality was sort of staring them in the face when there were too many cancer [01:14:00] deaths on that post. Um, and that's another thing that we could be bitter about, that all the money that was poured into gay men's health. And we've got nothing. And we do have probably a higher death rate from cancer because lesbians are notorious for delaying going to the doctor worse than straight men. And that's really bad. So we did the research, but we haven't got any. We had a I think Health published a couple of pamphlets, and that's about all we've had. So [01:14:30] we do feel a maligned in some areas, and health is one of them. And so we've tried each year to have a health sort of seminar at the museum with a few health things, and that's mostly because of my interest. And I did that health research back in 98 99. And so, yeah, I've sort of tried to keep that going with having some health in there as well, which is not so related to museums other than homophobia and the history of homophobia so we can [01:15:00] tie it in that way. And we often, um, we've had a display at various times about the media, how the media looks at lesbians and gays, and we did a study. I think I did the first study back in 78. We did another one in 82 or was it 80 82 and then we've done one. We had a look at more recently in 2000 and eight, it might have been, and we put that together for a display. So and we talked about that and so on. So we do sort of try and bring in some [01:15:30] things that are really topical, but looking at it from a historical perspective as well. What about, um, donations from the community in terms of objects or artefacts. Was that right? From the get go, people were were giving you material. Yes, yes. Oh, people were. Oh, great. I'm moving house. You can have all my broad sheets and lots of lesbian books. We've got about 1800 I think. Lesbian books. Now, some of my older [01:16:00] nonfiction books I have put in the, uh but I also already had somebody else's collection who'd left New Zealand. And, um so her collection really started the Charlotte museum collection. And then I added to it, I in my catalogue, I haven't got them all in my house now because I'm at the museum. I think I've got something like 2900 something books, lesbian books. So it's an enormous collection, and some of them are very, very rare. Those ones are still at my house because I was worried [01:16:30] about, um, having rare books unless they're very secure. And I think probably some of the rare books possibly need to have a lock glass cabinet. Um, because they'll be the only copy. Someone in Australia and New Zealand know if they were. There's one book. I think it was a print run of maybe only 1000 books in the whole of the United States. So yeah, and it's a novel, but it's set after the Second World War. So it's actually very poignant because it's really [01:17:00] she only wrote one novel, So it's pretty autobiographical, and I think it tells you the situation of women coming out of the forces then and the and the pressure to get married to have Children, really to breed. The next lot of warriors breed the canon product is how you feel after you. You look at those sort of historical situations. And of course, the emphasis after the Second World War was was of that. Lesbianism was a mental illness that wasn't emphasised in the twenties [01:17:30] at all, not even in the thirties. If you look at files of lesbians in Oakley Hospital, but when you look at the fifties, it was, you know, treat them, change them, make them straight, get them out there to breed the the types of donation. Can you describe for me? Um, things like, you know, the size and the kind of scope of the stuff that you're receiving? Well, we get, um, T-shirts. [01:18:00] We've had a little bit of jewellery donated to us. Um, carvings. We've had had a carving. We're still trying to trace down who did the carving. Um, we've had, um, little bits of memorabilia, travel things, posters. Um, in fact, we've got two capes pink pink flight capes from the pink flight from last year. I think it was, um uh, he various hero, but lots [01:18:30] of posters over the years, posters, magazines from all over the world and in different languages. We've got japanese. We've got spanish, We've got Italian. We've got books in different languages as well. Um, we don't all read all of them. I mean, I have some in French and in German, which I have read, but, um, I I can sort of read a bit of Italian, but mostly because of the French. Um, and [01:19:00] I've got very rusty. So what else do we get? People give us? Sometimes they give us a whole assortment of things, and some of it's not really, um it's just a bit junky. Um, And when we've asked Oh, I just thought through, You know that. And they don't. Those sort of people will tend to drop a box by the door. It's the end of their moving out, and they just put things aside that they didn't want. But mostly it's been appropriate [01:19:30] stuff. Some have given us books that are more that are not lesbian but are feminist one or two health books about women, and we've tended to keep those. If they were, um, if they were feminists, but if they were just an ordinary health book, we wouldn't keep it. So we have a list of categories for keeping things, and, um uh, and so they have to be pretty much lesbian for us to keep particularly objects on that would would be [01:20:00] unlikely to keep any object. We have a chair that was made by a lesbian, and it has an interesting history that it was part of a set of chairs, beautifully made, beautiful woodwork. They were made for creative New Zealand around the board table, and that was very, very thin. If you were big, I think you might have broken them. Apparently they did have some problems later on, but this one wasn't quite perfect, which was why she had it. And she's gone back to England now, and so she, um [01:20:30] so yes. So we have the little story about this chair, Uh, and that's sitting in the museum. So that's a bigger object. Lots of LP S People have kept their LP S, but they have long since no, don't have a turntable. So we have the turntable and so they we have a lot of those, um, given to us. We've, um C DS. We inherited the lesbian radio from Christchurch C DS collection. So that's good. But we haven't catalogued them all. Um, that's a long [01:21:00] process cataloguing LP S and C DS because you've got to write down the, uh, who wrote the song the You know, the music, the lyrics, the Who's singing it, the band and so on. So it's a lot of information to put in, so that's slow and tedious, and we don't get a lot of volunteers doing that. We did have one person work really solidly for a year. Every Sunday she did an hour or so. She was very, very good on that. [01:21:30] So then her circumstances change and she lost her job. So things become much more stressful for her And and you were saying that you have a specific lesbian policy for defining, actually what you mean by lesbian, And is that because of what you're collecting? And so you refer back to that saying, Is this actually a lesbian object or don't usually have to refer back to it? I've just about forgotten what's in the policy, but it's nicely to emphasise that we are a lesbian [01:22:00] museum, and that's what we're there for and we're not. I mean, we do have some gay stuff, of course, because the pink flights both, um and lots of her hero stuff. And of course, we've got a certain amount. But we don't have boxes of condoms around and things I mean, there is, I suppose a, um a a good thing, maybe, for um, the AIDS Foundation to have the range of how they've advertised condoms over the years. You know, there's a whole lot of history or health history and that, But no, [01:22:30] we don't do that. And I can't think of the things on display are pretty much lesbian. You know, there's a a beautiful, but it is very V in its shape and so on, and it was designed that way by a lesbian weaver. So so that's sort of the and appropriate. I feel, um, are the items in the collection which maybe the artist [01:23:00] wouldn't see as lesbian or wouldn't particularly want to be in a lesbian museum? That might be true. I I'm just trying to think whether that I think there's a little dish that shows a woman's part of a woman sort of bottom and hips or something. It's not naughty or anything. It's just, um that's really pleasant. Well, I, I don't [01:23:30] know who they are. We don't know who made that. There are a number of things that we don't know who made, but a lesbian has owned and like them because they represent some aspect of of a loving woman. Really? So trying to think whether this anything that, um, there there probably is the odd, um well, I, I know one thing. We've got a couple. I think of Jar. I think there's a jar and a tin [01:24:00] with lizzo on it. That apple, uh, tea. I'm sure the Turks who made that did not expect it to be in a lesbian museum. But lots of women don't even drink the stuff, but they have a can on them on their, um, cover them up with their tea caddies and so on. So we've added that to our sort of domestic wear. You know, we we have hers towels and that sort of thing. Um, yeah, so I suppose there are a few bits and pieces around [01:24:30] that could be queried, and we could have problems with the artist. And that's always a problem that the artist has one idea in mind. The person who purchases had another idea in mind, and a curator might even have another idea. So you can have three different points of view about an object. And who's to say who has the deciding factor? Um, in terms of a. Then you would think that the artist would probably have the most [01:25:00] important decision. But then the person who owned it and had a different view about it and who deposited it with the museum would possibly have certainly a stronger one than the curator who came in from the cold and had not lived with the object and the artist who makes something and doesn't live with the object. You know, you do start to wonder about who has the most um, input in terms of how that is representative because it might be [01:25:30] quite representative of this person's lesbian life, for instance, um, and it is very significant for them. It's so all of those issues are very kind of managed or contained within your policy documents, because I'm thinking, well, who who actually decides how things are catalogued, how things are framed, how, what's collected, Who, who, who does that the, um, the people receiving things So it's usually the coordinator or, um, [01:26:00] myself or another volunteer? Um, and the guidelines are fairly. It's fairly clear cut, um, or everybody who works there as a lesbian. Um, so we don't have to argue about what's lesbian and what's not. As a general rule, Um, I can't think of anything that we have had a few queries about certain books. How lesbian is it [01:26:30] now? If it's an older book, we usually tend to rely on the bibliography. But she was an American woman, and there are some English books she might have missed. She was a librarian, and she did an enormous bibliography in 1980 I tried to update it a bit with a new lesbian literature bibliography. Um, but I missed a lot because in New Zealand you didn't. And the Internet wasn't as big as it is now. Um, so there are probably some [01:27:00] that we might like. Elizabeth Bowen. I know two of her books we have, and somebody gave us a whole. I think there were six books of hers. Well, I don't think they're lesbian, and I don't think we should probably keep them because we're fairly We're becoming short of space. And where we before we tended to collect, if we had two copies, we kept two copies and gave the third one away. Now, we're sort of reducing that back. To think one copy is quite sufficient. Really? Um, because of space [01:27:30] and so on, you know, there is a limit. Can you take me through the process of If I was depositing some material with the museum, what would happen? How does that go? Well, you would probably send us an email and say that you wanted to drop something off, and then you would, um, arrange a time when you were when we were open. They call in on Wednesday afternoon or something like that. And that's happened um we've had [01:28:00] a number of people do that, and then they show us what they have. Um, for instance, a woman who's no longer lesbian, who came in with a whole pile of stuff, Um, from her lesbian phase, so to speak. And she was a musician. And so she had some beautiful big backdrops that were painted by a lesbian. Um, whom we think is still a lesbian, Um, and also [01:28:30] gave us some VCRS which she wanted back, but she didn't come back for them, but we carefully copied them onto because we have a reporter where we can copy them on a DVD. And so we went through and made a long list of things and she was in a hurry. So we she did have a couple more things she wanted to bring back. And she did come back with those and we had the list then all down for her to sign. Now all those were related to Les to lesbian band, and so or a band that had lesbians playing. And it was predominantly [01:29:00] seen as lesbian. And she was seen as a lesbian at the time. So we took all that because we could see a fabulous display and exhibition with her, that stuff representing the music of that time and and because we've made the film and we've got a big already a display up on, uh, which she's mentioned on display, um board. So another person came in with a pile of books and said, [01:29:30] Oh, well, if you don't, you know, just chuck out anything you don't want to pass on to the Women's Centre or whatever. And other things come from the Women's Centre. They're always dropping off books that as to their requirements, And so we go through and, um, we've got we were one area that's a bit problematic. Is poetry women's poetry? Um, because we don't always know how lesbian they are or whether the person was a lesbian. And so we've probably got some books that we've [01:30:00] actually catalogued and kept that are not particularly lesbian. Um, well, for instance, Sylvia Plath's books Now, while I think one of them is recorded in the Greer catalogue from memory, um, I think we've got all her collected poems, probably some that are probably read widely by lesbians. So there's some a bit of that creeps in. Uh, it's a bit hard. I could see that we could get stricter later on. Um, books [01:30:30] are easy enough to de acquisition. Really? It's not a major. Like, what do you do with an object? If you've changed your mind, we would be much stricter about objects. Um, we don't want a whole household lot arriving on our doorstep that, you know, that someone had carved I love you on the dressing table top or something. No, no, we don't go quite that far. So when somebody donates something, are they gifting it completely to you? Do they retain ownership or [01:31:00] are you acting as a guardian? How does that work? No, they give up ownership. Um, and the trust is really the guardian for the lesbian community. We believe the objects are really once they're in the museum, belong to the lesbian community. Um, and whatever that is, you know, a nebulous form, really. But it means that our whole group could in fact get together and say they didn't want something in the lesbian museum because it was, uh, they thought it was detrimental [01:31:30] or something like that. They could come and debate that with us. that that would be fine. Um, and in a way, several people made comments about the memorial post, which was why we then moved it and thought, Well, yes, it could be sensitive if you've just lost a loved one or that you've just been diagnosed yourself with cancer. Um, we've had a number of people sort of feel a bit not so good. Whereas other people are just spend all their time. They hardly look at the rest of the museum. They're busy looking over who was there, and they [01:32:00] have almost a morbid interest on who's on our dead list, Really? So you can't You can't win them in some of these instances, but I think a a nice memorial book and then building up. And when we've got so many people, then you do. Another one is possibly the best way to go. That's very time consuming, trying to get the information, but even just the birth and the death dates and preferably something where they lived or what they did or something. It's quite difficult. We've got a couple [01:32:30] of women who suicidal in the early days, and we have photographs of them, but we have so little information. Um, so I'm a bit loath to know what to do. But I, I think we need to keep them there and have them in the memorial book. But I guess if someone comes up with some information, at some point, we might be able to add it in anyway. You could just paste it in. So, yes, there's plenty. There's plenty of problems. Every project has more problems. What happens if [01:33:00] the trust dissolves or stops? Is there any contingency plan for this material to go somewhere else? Yes, it would be, Um, one would ask around for an appropriate museum. And it probably the Auckland Museum, Um, would be where it would be deposited. Um, and it would probably be weeded out. Certainly all the books and papers would go to LA Gas. That would make sense. Um, all [01:33:30] the bib biographical stuff. A lot of that will go Gans earlier. Anyway, we will only keep photocopies and copies of photos, Um, eventually, because we don't have the best storage facilities. Um, so that makes sense for all that to go. But until it's in some decent order, um, it's no point sending muddly bits down to LA Gas. I mean, it's volunteer run, too, And so it's no good just passing on things that are only half finished. [01:34:00] And so it's a case of getting something complete and then sending it off on why it's significant. You know what? It needs to be someone who did something in the community. Um, and who was out? Really? I don't know. There might be a case for someone who was very closeted for some particular reason, but I think that's the safest way to to have biographical stuff. But we often see bits and pieces in the newspaper and cut [01:34:30] out and think, Oh, she's a lesbian And she got a you know, uh, Ovation for doing something good in the community. We'll cut out that newspaper clipping and file it away, or whilst it's filed in a box under that alcohol or ageing or some other thing we have. All these boxes with labels on, too, are full of bits of paper, and that needs sorting. You mentioned, uh, right at the very start of the chat that the choosing of a name you didn't realise [01:35:00] the kind of implications of, of choosing a name and I'm assuming that's because you choose chose something like museum. Is that correct? Yes. Yes. What are the implications of like? I mean, if I'm not quite sure what the differences are between, like, say, an archive and a museum or a library. What? What? A library suggests that it's either a research library or a lending library. Um, we only have a research library we don't lend other [01:35:30] than to a bona fide researcher who's usually paid by us who can sometimes borrow books. Um, we, um, an archive we have You have to have really good, good, um, conservation requirements of temperature and humidity for, um, looking after paper. And I knew that as an artist about the problems with foxing on prints and things because I was a print maker for a long time. And all my early prints are no good. [01:36:00] Um, so you learn the hard way about acid on hands and things. You can see where people have touched them early on top of me as well as anybody else, um, and a museum. What I didn't know was the connotation. If you set yourself up as a museum that suddenly sticks their head up above the power of it and takes a big interest in what you might have. Um Also, Auckland Museum was [01:36:30] also interested that we had somebody's work, Um that they would be interested and I knew what they would do. They would put it out in some display, but nothing about lesbian. So, um, that made me more determined that it needed to be a separate entity. Um, it would be a shame for it to fold, because I see a large number of lesbians who are middle class who are reasonably well off who will be coming up to retirement [01:37:00] age in another 15 years. And it's a nice little hobby for them to be involved in. Um, they'll all need an interest. They'll live a lot longer than they expected for those that have maintained health. And so I think at the moment we're in this difficult phase of not probably having enough people in that category, a lot of still because they took a long time to even get a house because you had to have a you [01:37:30] know, even Lindsay Ray was saying the other day her father had to guarantee her mortgage when you were, and that was 1982. So we're on the back foot in terms of when we get to retirement. We don't have big funds, and so many of them will continue to work on or take on contract jobs and so on, possibly until they're closer to 70. But then we'll have a bigger population who will in fact be retired and will be wanting something to do. And he may have an interest in research or books or some [01:38:00] aspect of perhaps organising events, like whether it's a book club or discussion group or something on a regular basis. I think we will see more of those things happening again like we had in the early days. Perhaps. I mean, I'm hopeful that that will, uh, and the museum will fulfil that function. Certainly, Um, there's been lots. Lots of people have enjoyed the number of events that we've held in the wide variety of events and felt that it's brought the community back together a bit [01:38:30] and given more opportunity for older lesbians to get together. But now it seems it's very hard to attract younger lesbians. They museum seems old, and, um, not of interest to them. But when they come, they are completely overwhelmed by all the information and go away very happy. And and there tends to be a few more come after them. After we had about 12 from Unitech came. Then there was a A regular, uh, student sort of came [01:39:00] and wandered in to, um, check out the museum so the word of mouth sort of helps. We give out lots of brochures, but we don't get a big return from the big day out. I gave over 1000 brochures, and I haven't had anyone from who picked up a brochure there, um, that I talked to who's come in since then, So it's takes. It's a long trickle effect. Lots of people know about us on Facebook, but that's all they do. They they want. Oh, put [01:39:30] put up some more pictures on Facebook, and I'm reluctant to put too many pictures up or go online and just have a virtual museum because it's not the same as seeing an object and seeing all around an object of two dimensional three dimensional is quite different. And there's the whole atmosphere and the information on the wall. You can't put all that on Facebook or Twitter. We do do tweets, too. We have a Twitter account, so we're sort of up to speed. For some old people, [01:40:00] it sounds quite interesting. Uh, I, I mean, I suppose coming into this chat, I was thinking Oh, gosh, um, the idea of continually progressing continually growing is the kind of optimum, but actually on reflection. Now, after we've chatted, I'm thinking, is there anything wrong with an organisation that contracts and expands and contracts and expands depending on what the community wants? As long as it keeps going [01:40:30] in some form, it might take different forms at different stages. But if you wait 15 years, you'll get another surge of people coming through. Yes, I think it can vary. And also, um, there's nothing to say that the whole world won't swing to the right. Um, in times of poor economic times, fascism looks really good. And so, uh, lesbians and gay men will be more at risk, but particularly lesbians will be much more vulnerable in those sort of times. So they'll need some [01:41:00] sort of have some sort of where we can plot and plan into the middle of the night, so to speak. Um, so yes, but as well as that it could retrench so that, as I say, just just a small display of the collections and even rotating them if you haven't got enough display space, you know, I've thought about that. And while I'm looking for premises now, well, we all of us, four of us looking for premises, Um, we all have that in mind that we could That's seen as going backwards. [01:41:30] But it's also a way of the big thing is sustainability. And that's what my pledge is, really. And I think I think the trustees have got the general idea of sustainability, but they haven't quite seen. Partly because I've done so much work. They haven't realised how much work has gone into, you know, all the funding applications and so on. And I think, um, [01:42:00] it's a bit harder to get over to, um, people. I mean, certainly one or two people on the trust probably know that how much work I do, because they are also involved in organisations that do a lot of funding, and they know how difficult some departments are when you're trying to get funding from them. So, uh, yeah, I guess just to wrap up, could you bullet point the key things that somebody just starting out with [01:42:30] an idea like this, um, would be useful and and kind of giving to them some tips. The first one, they need a lot of energy. Um, you need to have an organisation that is set up in such a way that you can receive funding. Um, and you need to be able to account for all your funding Very well. So you need good governance. Um, and it needs [01:43:00] to be a project that has a community that, um, would, um, either use it or respond to it or favour it or something. You know, it's like, um I guess the ceramic museum that's being set up out at newly. Now, you wouldn't set that up on because there's no history of ceramics. And but there's a big history and crumb brick from [01:43:30] the very first brick works at the beginning of the establishment of anything out in newly, um, from colony colony times. So, uh, that makes sense. So you need to have a look of why you're doing something. You know, where you've come from, You know, it's like a canoe. Really? Yeah. You need to know where you paddled from to know where you're going to paddle to that sort of concept, I think is important to have it clearly in your mind. Um, and and lots of willing workers, willing [01:44:00] volunteers. Really? Um, and some good benefactors would be even better. I mean, that would be amazing. To actually own the ultimate would be if someone leaves us a building of either a flat that they've lived in, that either we could turn into a museum or that you could rent out and make yourself sustainable. Those are the things that are on the back of our mind. And we do have on our website about bequests. And [01:44:30] we've had a couple. Well, I see the radio lesbian radio as a bequest in terms of all the cassettes we got from them. And we had a small bequest from Bronwyn Dean. So, you know, we do say bequests are very nice. Very nice. Um, if, uh, you know, people remember us and our will and their wells, but, you know, it's, uh, again, people are nervous about mortality. I've discovered more [01:45:00] so than practically I am, I suppose. So, uh, having lived past all predictions, I, I, um I suppose I don't worry so much about it. And I can't think of anything else I do think you have to have. You do have to develop, um, rigorous, um, policies and ways to call it policies, like rules. Really? Um, about how your organisation is to run and [01:45:30] so on so that you don't end up with difficulties. Um, either with someone with their hand in the till or racing off with all the petrol vouchers or things like that. I mean, those are little little things that but they give an organisation a bad name if you have to, you know, catch someone doing things like that. Um, yeah. And that you don't break rules in terms of that, you don't do things out of [01:46:00] ignorance. Like one of the problems we have, For instance, in the conservation area that you really need the temperature fairly even. And, of course, in the winter time you come in and the building we're in now it's nine degrees. So basically, I said, do what you have to do with your coat on and everything and go home and do other things on the net. Um, otherwise, you are heating the room up and letting it go down again. And [01:46:30] that's really bad for things. It's better to stay at nine degrees over the whole day or slightly go up and then down to 12 and down again, then to you. Come and boost it up to 20 with all the heat is on and the big electricity bill and, um, for what you know. So we tend to, uh, last year I think we closed in July and August, and we will probably do the same this year unless we've got a very insulated or automatically heated space. [01:47:00] So, yeah, I can't think of anything else, really.

IRN: 486
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_nicolas.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003926
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089220
TITLE: Nicolas - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Q12 (series); coming out; family; gay; sex; youth
DATE: 27 February 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Nicolas talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So tell me a little bit about yourself. Yeah. My name is Nick. I and I I don't know what you want to know. Anything. Um, what's your interests? My interests. I like cars. Hang out with mates, movies, drinking, [00:00:30] dancing. Uh, I don't know. That's about it. Really? So whereabouts, are you born here in Auckland and still hanging around? Yeah. No. I moved to Sydney when I was five when I was 10 and then moved back here. This is where our family is. So OK, So how old are you? 24. So, what's your gender identity? [00:01:00] Gay. Is your sexuality identity or What do you mean, male and your culture? I So, um, when did you realise that you were gay? Um, I suppose I had feelings when I was, like, Probably about 11 and intermediate, But I didn't come out till I was 15. [00:01:30] So how how How did you realise? How did I realise? Um I don't know. I just, like, started having sexual feelings towards other guys at my school and friends. And that's why I just experimented a bit and realised that that was what I liked. I didn't find girls attractive at all, even at a young age. Yeah, [00:02:00] I've never found them attractive at all. So when you realise what was the first point that I was like, Oh, my God. What realised that I was gay, like, um, I don't know. I just kind of it just sort of happened, I suppose. I. I used to work somewhere where one of the other workers who was a bit older than me was gay. And [00:02:30] we used to, like, sort of flirt and all that sort of thing, like nothing sexual. But it just sort of I suppose that was, like, a real awakening and made me realise that I am gay. Open new doors to you. Yeah. So how did you feel when you came to realise it? How did I feel when I came to realise I was gay Or when I accepted that I was gay realising, [00:03:00] I don't know, I really don't know. It's like a maybe a bit confused. But how about when you accepted it? And I accepted it. I felt like a huge weight off my shoulders. And then everyone was like, Oh, we always thought you gave I wondering when you were going to come out. And I was like, Oh, great. If only I had no one. So, um, did you feel that you had to keep [00:03:30] a secret at all beforehand? Yeah. Um, I guess I just didn't really know how people would react. I hung out with, like, a lot of really straight people that were like, You know, you're a real typical straight bloke, bloke type people. And so I guess I just didn't really know if they'd be accepting of it or not. Hm. So did you [00:04:00] feel that, um, all your friends was gonna go against you at all? Yeah, sort of. But I'm quite a strong person. And so I just you know, when I finally decided that it was the, you know, the time to tell people, I, you know, sort of just came to the conclusion that I sort of know who my real friends are and who they aren't. So when you experimented, how old were you when you first did it? [00:04:30] Uh, 11. 12 I. I have I have a memory of, uh, kissing another guy in school when I was, like, in primary school in Australia when I was probably about six or seven, but I don't know. I mean, was he a friend of yours? Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. But not like a Hey, you're a boy. I'm a boy. I like you. [00:05:00] Yeah. No, it was more just, like, just one of those things that wasn't like a thing. I don't think I knew at that age, you know, that I was actually interested in boys. That just sort of happened. Whoops. So, um, you're out of the closet, right? Yeah. So who are you out at the moment? So does everybody know? Yeah. Everybody knows. I I'm not ashamed to tell people or, you [00:05:30] know, if I'm talking to my clients at work, I You talk openly about gay issues myself being gay partners that I've had. Do you get a lot of gay people at your work? Yes, a lot of a lot of closeted ones and a lot of openly gay ones. The ones that just come up to you starting with you randomly. Um, I have a few of them. They're normally the older guys. It's a little bit scary. [00:06:00] So when you first came out, was it to your parents or friends? um I actually discussed with one of the guys that I used to work with who was actually straight, and he kind of told me that, you know, it's the sort of right thing to do to come out and everything. So he kind of prepared me and, um yeah, I. I came out properly, first of all to my mom because I thought that, [00:06:30] you know, like, she has the right to know. Before I start telling friends and other family members, What was the general reaction from people? Oh, they seem to be pretty cool. But they were like when I told my mum, um, I was crying and I told her that maybe she would just sit down and she was busy cooking. And she's like, No, no, I don't need to sit down. Just, you know, what is it? What do you want? And, uh and, um, I said, [00:07:00] you know, Mom, don't tell you I'm gay. And she said, Really, is that you're gonna tell me? I said, Yeah, Yeah, she goes, Oh, so you're gonna tell me on drugs or something? So she was pretty cool with it, And all my other friends are cool with it, and I, to be honest, haven't lost any friends at all from coming out. Well, it's a good reaction from a mother for someone to say, Oh, that at all. Yeah, she's pretty cool. She's open minded. It's, uh, [00:07:30] the main thing. That's good. Is that the general reaction that, um, people usually get when they come out of the closet? Mhm. So, um, how about so what about other people apart from your friends and your mother's mother that I've told you mean what's their reactions? Um I mean, they've all been good. I have, Like I said, I haven't [00:08:00] had a a really a bad experience with it. And, uh, I haven't lost any friends or or anything from being gay or coming out. Um, I guess I've gained more friends. How did you feel when you came out? Uh, when I told my mom I was really emotional, I was just, like, quite upset. And I guess I just wasn't really sure what her reaction would be [00:08:30] and didn't want to disappoint her. Uh, a lot of our family is, um, females. So there's only myself and my older cousin and granddad and uncle So four of us are males, and there's about 16 females. So I sort of I guess I felt like she was losing her son, But, jeez, seemed to be cool with it. And, you know, over the years, we've, [00:09:00] you know, growing together and got used to it. Talk about a hormonal hormonal family, a hormonal family. All my family is crazy. God, I can just imagine a family full of females. Yeah, you don't want to imagine it. It's really horrible. Yeah. So, um, what was the support that you get [00:09:30] the support? Um, yeah, it was good. I everyone's been supportive. When I was younger, I got into drag and, uh, people, you know, like my grandparents used to be quite supportive. But, you know, I mean, I was young, so I wasn't really sure you know, all about all about all that sort of thing. Like I was only, like, 16 [00:10:00] or 17. And, um, you know, my grandparents used to take me like shopping for drag clothes and makeup and fake eyelashes, and, um, you know, big stilettos and things like that. So I suppose you know, that's quite supportive and everything. It's not like everybody has parents or grandparents or other family members that do that sort of thing for them. What was the age What was your age when you came out to your mother? [00:10:30] Yeah, a very young age. No, I think it's a good age. And I talk to people online or in person. And, uh, you know, like they only just come out or being gay is a new thing to them. And they're like, 21 22. And to me, that's like Seems like quite a late age to come out. I don't know these days anyway, it's quite more accepting, like you find that there's a lot more [00:11:00] younger gay people around than they used to be, anyway, I think just sort of it seems to be a bit more accepted. Um, not fully, but a bit more. So. You've been in relationships before, right? Yes. So, um, has you coming out affected your relationship at all? What do you mean? Well, there are some people about some people aren't actually in yet. Some [00:11:30] people are in some people. Well, sometimes you being out can actually affect your relationship. Has that really ever affect your relationships? No. I I go. I only really go out with people that are open about being gay and accepting of themselves. I just think that it's the type of person that I am. That's too much work to be with, someone who's closeted or not fully, [00:12:00] uh, open to their sexuality. So I I wouldn't really put myself in the situation of dating someone. Um, especially long term. Who's not comfortable with themselves. OK, so how do you meet other people? Uh, I meet people through my work. I meet people online through Facebook grinder NZ dating man [00:12:30] hunt. And I don't go on that one. The clubs through other friends. Hm? Yeah. So you're pretty as social queen, and you be like, No, I'm not a queen. It was just a play of words for myself, but yeah, he was just a very social. Yeah, I'm quite social. I mean, I'm a little bit shy at first, but once I sort of warm up, I'm quite sort of chatty and easy [00:13:00] to get on with and, you know, introduce myself to other people and everything, so I find it easy to make friends. So what's your definition in virginity? No, definition in virginity because a lot of people, both religiously and non or spiritually or non, that believe in different ways of virginity. Some people believe that virginity is if you do any sexual sexual [00:13:30] thing at all, you lose it. Or if you have penetrative sex, you lose it. And some people think you can get it back in a way. So what's your definition and virginity? Yeah, like with being gay. You mean like obviously like anyway? Well, I don't know. I'm so [00:14:00] confused. Um, I don't know. I have to think next the bell questioned. Um, So, have you ever experienced or received any abusive behaviour or abuse because of your sexuality or gender identity? You mean like gay? Yeah. Uh, no. Nothing [00:14:30] at all. No, I'm quite a strong person. I. I mean, you know, someone's gonna dish it out or dish it back. I I'm I'm, um Yeah. I've always been, like, quite a thick skinned person. I. I don't really, um, get upset. Easy. Uh, you know, if people are saying things or being dis disrespectful in any way, I don't get upset [00:15:00] where I feel depressed or anything like that, You know, It doesn't. Yeah, I I'm I'm quite a strong, strong willed person and and strong person in general. OK, so that's the end of the interview. Um, is there any other comments or any other questions you want to want me to ask? Um, not good enough. If you want to ask anything, you can. OK, Thank you for an interview. Thank you.

IRN: 483
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_name_withheld_4.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003925
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089219
TITLE: [name withheld 4] - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Bay of Islands; Nelson; Q12 (series); Tauranga; coming out; gay; homophobia; mental health; relationships; self harm; suicide
DATE: 27 February 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Bay of Plenty, Bay of Plenty, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast [name withheld] talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How are you today? I'm good. Thank you. OK. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Um well, I'm 20 gay not fully out yet, but getting there, um, just trying to find a way to tell the rest of my family, um that are completely and utterly homophobic, but, um, dealing with it being as my immediate family likes of my two brothers, [00:00:30] my mom and dad currently know. But, um, my mom is the only one that doesn't really give a toss. Um, yeah. So what do you So where are you from? Um, I am born and raised in Nelson, New Zealand, but I have lived in Wellington, Hamilton, Tauranga and in Auckland for the weekend. Going back in about [00:01:00] an hour and a half. Oh, good times. I didn't expect that. Um, So what do you do? Do you actually So what is your occupation? My occupation is currently employed. I work for, uh, do this so deliver? Uh, no. I work in the depot and also occasionally do, um, deliveries as well. So you're not a delivery [00:01:30] boy? Well, yes, I guess. Yeah. Um, I do it part time on call when I'm needed pretty much, which is, at the moment about every week. Ok, so you're 20 right? Yes. Uh, what gender do you identify with? I'm a male. Um, yeah, I had to try to ask that question. Um, [00:02:00] what culture do you identify with? I identify myself as a kiwi, uh, or a New Zealand European. And your sexuality is gay? Yes. So when did you first realise? Um, Well, I started realising something was up when I was eight. Uh, and my first sexual gay experience was at four with my best friend at the time, [00:02:30] Um, in the male toilets at kindergarten, as awkward as it was. And, um, I realised something was up at the age of eight, as I said, and I realised more that I was heading towards gay at the age of 12 and stayed at the age of 14. Gay. So when you're age, how did you realise? [00:03:00] Um, just the fact that all my mates were, um, starting to look between like, um at more females, and I was concentrating on more males. So did you have feelings for any of your friends at the time or anything? Uh, yes, I did. Uh, and the great thing about the swimming time is, uh, everyone at that age ends up stripping naked. So I I [00:03:30] pretty much had had a field day with yeah, as the other guy shakes his head in the back of the room. Um, making out with this bottle feel that for you. So, um, when you realised that you had to feel that So actually, now that there was actually a silly question because you kind [00:04:00] of, um you feel like it's a You have to keep it a secret at the moment, don't you? Uh, not so much. No, but, um just some of my family. I want to find a way to break it to them myself. Not anyone else. Tell them like, um, when my other family found out through Facebook because I'm not ashamed on Facebook, they can go on to my page and and have a look. [00:04:30] Whatever. And, um, yeah, they found out from there, and my mom is the only one that actually came up to me and asked me and I told her everything. And she's like, Ok, that's cool. We're happy with who or what you are who or whatever you're happy doing. Just be yourself. Just don't hide anything. So your other family members haven't actually went on Facebook to check it or anything? No, being as my Facebook is actually [00:05:00] set to private. So if I'm not friends with them, then they can't really check it. But my brother went onto my mom's page, who I'm friends with, Um and that's where everything was, um, chucked out. So it became a little bit of a scrambled egg situation thing. Yes, uh, considering I was there and I was staying at a mate's a few days, and I was asked to come home immediately. Uh, I thought I was in the ship or something, but no, [00:05:30] um, they just wanted to talk to me about my which, um, didn't end up happening anyway because it was too awkward. So it's the age of eight. Did you actually feel felt it was the secret that you need to keep it a secret? Um, yes, I did. But, um, it's just just actually recently that, um I've pretty much not not given two shits, to be honest, Um, and [00:06:00] yeah, I've just been me and I can't change being me. Really? So did you ever thought that you had to keep it? Not How did that did you for that? Um, that Oh, my God. This is not the right thing. Or is this normal or anything like that? Uh, yes, I. I did actually think that. And, um, through the stages of trying [00:06:30] to figure out what was wrong with me when really I realised there wasn't anything wrong with me. I was just different. Uh, I had a very, very, um, strong, suicidal sense. And, um, through the stages of trying to figure out who and what I was and if there was anything wrong with me. But really, there's nothing. I'm just human. Did you ever, Um, so have you actually done physical abuse [00:07:00] or physical harm to yourself? Uh, in the past, Yes, but, um, and recently, yes. But that's only because I do have mental, um, issues, which I am getting sorted. Ok, um how did you feel when you first realised? Um oh, that's a tough one. That was a long time ago. Um [00:07:30] uh, I just felt happy, really, That I had finally figured out who and what I was and yeah, now, I'm just happy to be me. So are you out to your or your friends or not? All but most. So how do you feel about that? Oh, pretty happy. Uh, it just feels like there's a huge weight lifted off my shoulders. So [00:08:00] how much support do you have currently? Currently? Um, not much. Just the support of my mum. Really? Um, and just friends. Is there any organisation that's in an area that you live that help to? Um, no. The closest one will probably be, um, wacky over in Waikato. [00:08:30] Ok, so, um, have you actually been in a relationship with anybody? Yes, I have. Uh, I just recently came out of one when I found out that my ex-boyfriend was actually cheating on me while I was sleeping in his bed and he went to work with the bunny ears. Um, and yeah, I found out that he was sleeping at the time with about seven or eight different people. And the community is so small, I had never [00:09:00] actually realised there were that many there. So your was your relationship? A secret relationship? Uh, not secret as such. No. Uh, the immediate family knew but I I had to be straight acting and everything, which I am anyway. But, um, come to you naturally. Yeah, like I'm just me. I don't see why I should change, but, um uh, to the neighbours and, uh, people that weren't [00:09:30] family, I'd have to keep it a secret, Like, around town. I couldn't touch him. I couldn't hug him. I couldn't do anything. Was that because you wanted it that way or he wanted it that way? He he wanted it that way. But I'm not really one to do, um, public affection. But at times, I will, depending on the situation or where you are or something like that. If there are people around or something like that, Yeah, like if there's, like, a big [00:10:00] group of, like, other by transgender gay, whatever, um, people around? Yeah, sure. Why not? But if there's just me and a bunch of people, I don't know that. I don't know how they're going to react. React to it then. Yeah. So how does, um how does this affect your relationship with you? Partially being out? [00:10:30] Uh, I'll go back then. Back then. When you were in the relationship. Oh, I didn't have a problem with it. Like, uh, I'd usually only see him at home anyway, because I work, Uh, in early hours of the morning, anywhere from about Oh, anywhere from about, um, 2 a. m. to about 1 p. m. [00:11:00] I can work, and yeah, I'm just I didn't see him anyway during the day because he always had his his job to do. And yeah, so in this slight, when you think about, in a way, do you think he was checking out with other people when you were at work as well? Uh, no. Being as I normally only work from about 2 a. m. to 6 a. m. and then I'll [00:11:30] go home, and he'd still be sleeping in exactly the same position anyway, So, yeah, um, it wasn't until the first time he dumped me, which was about 56 months ago. Roughly. I'm guessing. And, um yeah, it wasn't until then that he actually started cheating. OK, um how do you meet other people as [00:12:00] he takes a sip of his drink? Yes. Um, other people, just people that he knew that were bi, bi curious or gay in the community as well, so you met other people through your past relationship? Yes. How? How about like going through the going on the Internet or Facebook or anything like that? Um What do you mean, Like, do you meet other people through there? Yes. Yes. I'm [00:12:30] very much one of a a social networker when I have the time, But, um, usually, I'm just quite close to my current friends, but, uh, i'll go to different places and go to meet new people. Friends, um, or boyfriend, whatever comes. So what's your definition in virginity? [00:13:00] Virginity? Um, I reckon it's when you actually have sex is when you lose it, right, you can do full play like, um, everything else but sex and still be a virgin. Yeah. OK, so, um, have you actually experienced [00:13:30] or received any abuse from anyone? Um, because of your sexual sexuality or gender identity, Uh, I have done it in the past. Yes, but, um, not so much now, being as I think, it was more of, like, a joke because they didn't actually know. But now that I've came out to them or hinted about it, uh, it's just eased off. So do you have any, [00:14:00] um other questions you want me to ask Or do you have any other comments? Uh, no, not that I can think of at the moment. No, thank you for the interview. You're welcome. Thank you.

IRN: 485
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_jasper.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003924
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089218
TITLE: Jasper - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; HIV / AIDS; Q12 (series); Rainbow Youth; coming out; family; gay; gender identity; homophobia; pansexual; relationships; school; sex; stereotypes; youth
DATE: 27 February 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Jasper talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I am here with Jesper. How are you? I'm very good. Thank you. You tell me about yourself. What do you want to know about yourself? I don't know. I'm currently getting ready to go down to Waikato University to do a B A in Maori culture and language. And I'm 20 years old and loving being myself. I guess. Fun. Um, how old are you? I already said that, Um [00:00:30] what are your interests? Um, Maori stuff, rocks, fossils, meeting new people, making new connections and daydreaming about Prince coming. When you say rocks, you mean like rocks? Rocks like rock music or anything? No. Yeah. I mean, actual rocks in the dirt rock. What's so interesting about rocks? Um, unlike men, they don't go anywhere. Yeah, [00:01:00] OK, Um, what gender identity or culture? Um, do you identify with probably male? Yeah. Male. And what culture? Um, bear brotherhood. That's a new one. what is your sexuality? Gay? Well, gay pan, because it's it's complicated. Do you want to, um, get into that? Um it's more [00:01:30] like if I meet a guy that's a trans guy, and I develop fan for them, I'll go along with it instead. of blocking myself just because they don't have male plumbing. Male plumbing. OK, um, when did you realise when I was about six dressing up as a Disney princess two. I do that every night. No Disney Disney princess, [00:02:00] you say? Yes. Everyone from basically seeking beauty to Ariel. Everyone. So no princess or anything? Um no, never a prince. Always a princess. Because it's the princess that gets Prince Charming, isn't it? It's never like, you know. So, um, when you realised, um, did you have, like, feelings for other guys? Did you actually have feelings for other guys when you were, like, six? Not that I I remember. No, it was just the thing. Like, I just wanted to be a princess and [00:02:30] wanted Prince Hemming to sweep me off my feet on a white horse. When did you start having feelings for guys? When I was about 10 or 11 at an intermediate school, I developed my first crush on a guy never on the girl. There was a brief period, but it was more of, um, mental attraction, as opposed to a sexual or physical one. So when you realised that, did you feel that you had to keep it a secret from people. Not particularly because [00:03:00] it was everyone else around me that made a big deal of it. I was just like, Yes, I'm gay, but just deal with it. So you didn't have any of those things like shit. Is this right or is it wrong? Well, those kind of came about when I was in high school and actually proper. Came out to everyone when I was 16 on the school bus and, um, I but after a while, because my classmates are kind of saying, Oh, but you you're too straight to be gay. [00:03:30] I was just like, OK, maybe I am straight then. But no, the feelings remain for guys, and I Yeah, my my boy doesn't respond to girls in the way that it should. So where whereabouts are you from? Originally, I was from Australia, but my parents moved to, um, New Zealand when I was too young to have a choice in the matter. Good day, mate. Um, more like I was three years old, so Yeah, it was Yeah. So, racing whereabouts in New [00:04:00] Zealand all around Auckland, Basically from Parnell to New Market to sent to out west to Yeah, basically. So you're a city boy at the moment? Well, currently, I'm just Yeah, just being out in city lots, but I still live out west. So are you out of the closet at the moment? Why wouldn't I be? How did you come out of the cottage [00:04:30] and also to the school bus? Like I said, I was sick of being asked who I'd rather date Pamela Anderson and Jena Jolie. So I decided. OK, deal with it. I'm just going to go say it. And yes, I'm gay. Everyone deal with it. And yeah, and my goal promptly find my parents saying that I was making an issue of my sexuality. Really? Yeah. What do they do? They gave me the both sides of the coin speech and mentioned how that one of my third cousins has died of HIV. So Really? Yes. [00:05:00] How How did they tell you that? Does this set you down? Well, basically, the first topic that came into the into the serious conversation was gay. Guys get HIV, you better be safe. So I'm like, OK, so yeah, not not that supportive. Hey, so you're this blah, blah blah. It was just, you know, all the horror stories. So were your parents supportive? Um, not well. They're kind of subtly homophobic. [00:05:30] So not particularly like when I told my mom the same coming out story. She was like, So you took people telling you They told you straight to be gay as an insult. I'm like, What? So do you find it as an insult? Well, it's like it's very It's basing your views on someone's sexuality on a stereotype. And just like I get frustrated when [00:06:00] a guy is too girly to be a guy or not too girl but too feminine, like acting and just, you know, out there and just being, you know, portraying themselves as a very feminine feminine guy. It's the same with me. Like if I if people see me as a straight male, I kind of get offended because, like, Well, I don't fit the grain of traditional gay guy, but I'm certainly not straight. Do you feel that you have to present yourself [00:06:30] as gay? And no, if people ask, I'll say, Yeah, I'm gay. I'm into guys. So, yeah, your girlfriend will and won't have a chance with me. so he can stop being jealous. Do you ever have to, um, do you ever have the feeling like you shouldn't have to say that you're gay just to keep if they are? Well, if it's sometimes it'll be obvious. Like if I'm with a guy and I'm being all cuddly with them and being romantic, then it should stick out like a [00:07:00] sore thumb. Not like yeah. Then they wouldn't have to ask the questions like, Oh, so strange. You do just look very close. Yes, very much, I think. But I think if anyone's still on that stage, it's my parents. Because whenever I have guys over that I like I'm banned from touching or going anywhere within a metre of them. It's like, really strict you on that side. You're on that side pretty much [00:07:30] like we have to be on the opposite side of the couch as long as my parents are around. Which is odd, considering they're romantic in front of me, like 24 7, and they're like, Do they put themselves between you two? No, just They'll be keeping an eye on, because in my house, you can see from the kitchen into the living room. And they'll just be watching from just making sure that everything's staying where it should saying, As you know, you two saying together, nothing stolen. More [00:08:00] like just not stolen, but just staying where we should and not, um, going past the friend zone. The line in between the couch. That's the friend zone. Pretty much. It's like my parents say, Oh, you're not allowed to until you've been in a long a long term relationship. And I'm like, Well, how am I you helping By preventing me from being romantic? Yes. Um, So you're out to everybody, right? [00:08:30] Yes, out to absolutely everybody. Have you ever had the thoughts where you shouldn't be out to everybody? Or maybe I shouldn't tell that person or something like that. Not really, because I've encountered all sorts of people and the most harassment I've ever got from anyone was from an ex who just was abusive and beat me up. So and yeah, that was Yeah. I've never received any kind of harassment that would make me think I shouldn't be out to anyone. So did you have any partners [00:09:00] or friends that you weren't that told you not I'll tell them that you were OK. No, it was more just, um the my The hardest thing was I when my mum took me overseas when I was 17, I was trying to come out to my relatives there in the UK. And my mum would go behind my back and tell them Oh, it was just a face. So I had to explain myself over and over again. No, this is not a face. Yes, I am gay. Yes, I like men. Deal with it. [00:09:30] Did you ever thought it was gonna be a phase or not? Particularly because when I had my first computer at 14, it kind of opened all the doors to the World Wide Web. And as I exploring basically started exploring. And, yes, straight and lesbian stuff just did nothing for me at all. And you get into that little world, Just take your first step and start seeing [00:10:00] I. I walk 500 miles away pretty much you just, you know, starting into the world and you're just discovering what makes you tick. So how do you feel about being out and about being out? Oh, like I think a lot of people have different expectations about being out. Like like I've mentioned earlier. If some if you are out, a lot of people expect you to be flamboyant and feminine and glamorous. That Oh, my God. Honey, I love that dress on there. Oh, my God. Let's [00:10:30] go out. My But I just like I'm me. You got a problem with that? You can go talk to your more gay friends because I'm just gonna be me. And if I I'm sorry you can't go shopping with me or you can't, you know, pick out who's the latest designer is because I wouldn't even give a damn. So how did you feel when you realised when I realised it was like, OK, this is This is new. I haven't I don't know about [00:11:00] anyone else in my class or but in my year who might be gay. So I'm just like, OK, I'm going to deal with this in my own way. Did you ever thought you had no idea what was happening? Yeah, When I first developed my first crush, I was like, Oh, my God. What the fuck is this like? I'm not supposed to be, um I'm not supposed to be, you know, attracted to guys. And my parents were just saying, It's just a phase, Just a phase. You'll be perfect. Fine. It's just a phase. No, but that phase just lasted [00:11:30] a bit too long. Comes a point in time where it's more than just a face. Pretty much, I think, um, the the dresses as princesses should have given them a hint, right? Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I don't know. It's I think parents only see what they want to see. Do you ever think that parents want their Children to see as to be an image of themselves or [00:12:00] to be the perfect little straight child? They want them to grow up as to be. Well, to my parents, it's like they want me to be straight because I asked my mom, I know that you said to her mom, I know you'd rather me end up with a girl, and she's like, Well, I just want to be you to be happy whoever you're with. And, um, like I was watching modern family and I was pointing at the, um, the fat gay guy. Well, chubby gay guy and saying, Oh, that's gonna be me in the future. And my dad, who was sitting next to me was like turning to me like, really, [00:12:30] I'm like, Oh, I mean, I'm I'm gonna have the red head gay guy's body and the fat guy's personality is like, Oh, that's much better. So it's not just my gayness that they want to reshape. It's my kind of being because both of them, both of them, are really health and acts and, you know, do everything to keep fit like yoga and surf and what not? But they just look at me. And I think they see me as a lump of clay that they want to mould mould. So what support do do you have? [00:13:00] Rainbow Youth and my friends and people that have just stuck by me throughout everything and just Yeah, yeah. So you're in a relationship at the moment, um, again, Fairly complicated. The guy is like, thousands of miles away in America, and he's just gonna walk 500 miles and he's just given me permission to see whoever I like until he gets here, which will be in August. So so [00:13:30] has you been completely out or when you real your past with your, um, realisation has that ever affected your relationships at all? Um, not really. But I guess be discovering myself as being gay has kind of made me more open and more like accepting, but to the point where I will everyone's innocent until proven guilty with me. So I've really I've dated and met some real [00:14:00] douche bags in my time who have just trampled over everything I believe in. So it's It's it's a hard road. I'll say that I love that saying innocent until proven guilty. I think there's no innocence in the case. That could be true, considering the amount of guys I've met that have kind of wowed me with the extent they'll go when it comes to getting a route. So, um, how do you meet other people? [00:14:30] Tag Facebook? ID Um, pretty much any resource at my disposal I'll use on the World Wide Web. So what's your definition in virginity Division of virginity? Basically, if you've if you're a gay man and you've taken someone up the arse or you've been taken up the ass, that's Yeah, that's your virginity gone, OK, and have you experienced or [00:15:00] received any abuse or abusive behaviour because of your sexuality or your gender identity? Um, well, like abusive GE. Well, not really gender identity, but gender expression. Because since I don't express myself as a, you know, a flamboyant gay man, a lot of people give me a bad rap for that. But apart from that, not really, no. Do people expect you to like certain things or stuff like that? They [00:15:30] expect me to act a certain way. And like they expect that whenever I have a conversation with someone, my wrist will go flying and I'll start talking like Lady Gaga or the solo. Ah, hello. Yes, and snapping fingers and just going. Oh, my God. Yes, you did. Yeah. No, don't talk to me. No. Do you ever think that they do? Do they say Oh, So you like Lady Gaga? Hey, Well, yeah, You have to get a few people like that, but [00:16:00] let's be honest. What gay guy out there doesn't? Do you like I can name a few? See, there's a guy in the corner of the room that doesn't like a yes, but but going back to your corner Well, there'll be exceptions to every rule. OK, that's pretty much the end of this interview. Is there any questions you want me to ask or any comments you want to say? Um, [00:16:30] just when If you're coming out as a young gay man or a young lesbian woman, be yourself because there are too many fake people out there pretending to be things that they're not. So just be yourself and have strength within yourself because the more you love yourself, the more you can love others. OK, thank you for the interview. All good.

IRN: 484
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_lisa_michelle.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003923
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089217
TITLE: Lisa-Michelle - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Q12 (series); Rainbow Youth; arts; coming out; family; gender identity; marriage; music; performance; religion; sex; spirituality; support
DATE: 23 February 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Lisa-Michelle talks about gender, sexuality and spirituality in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How are you today? I'm wonderful. Thanks. Ben. How are you? I am good. So who are you? My name is Lisa. Michelle? Who are you? I am Ben. Ben. Do you come here often? Yeah. Yeah, I'm gonna go with Yes, but it's my car. So So, um, tell us a little bit about yourself. Wow. That's really general. Um, I'm older than 25. Younger than 100. I'm [00:00:30] currently training to be a chaplain. And I'm doing my placement at Rainbow Youth. A counselling young GL BT youth, Um, which I'm absolutely loving. And Yeah, pretty much I'm loving life in general. Everything is good. Why are your interests my interests? As in anything, hobbies, my interest. My interests are breathing in and breathing out. Followed closely by breathing in again. Um, I do that on a regular basis. No, I love to write. I love to sing. [00:01:00] I like to write songs. I play guitar, I play drums. Although I haven't played for a long time. My drum kit is currently locked away in a very big cupboard. Um, I play keyboard by air. I write stories, I write articles. I like to swim. I love kids. I love the elderly. I love animals. I love people. I love life. I love God. Um So where were you born and where do you live? I was born in, I think what's now known as [00:01:30] Mercy Hospital used to be known as the martyr New Zealand Auckland and currently living in Glenfield on the North Shore in Auckland. Ok, so how old are you? I use the bell. I was waiting for that. Um what gender, gender identity do you identify with? Yeah, that's a tricky one, because I've been reading up recently about all the options. Um, I'm going [00:02:00] to go with human. I believe that we all have a spirit inside our body and say what's on the outside really is irrelevant. Um, I look like a female and that I have breasts and a womb. That is true. And, um, that I dress like a boy and I actually, until the age of about 26 27 I actually dreamt I was a boy. So even in my subconscious, I was very much a guy. And yeah, I think [00:02:30] since then I've accepted the fact that I'm in a female body. I, I believe God created me that way for a reason. That's OK. Um, but I also believe that he doesn't really care what's going on on the outside. It's what's on the inside. So I'm a human spirit. Thanks for asking. Uh, what is your sexuality? I like girls, and I'll be a little bit more specific. I like one girl in particular. So at the moment, like as with the whole spirit and the human body thing, I believe in falling in love with someone's spirit. So it's regardless [00:03:00] of what gender that spirit inhabits. Um what gender body? So I'm in love with the spirit in a woman's body. Um, when did you realise that you liked girls? When did I realise I like girls? Well, I've been a boy since in my in my mind, for as long as I can remember. My earliest memory is, um, of about three or four as a um looking in at a scene. I can see myself and my sister on on little trikes playing, and we used to play play [00:03:30] chips. Don't know if you remember back in the eighties, and, uh, I was John, she was punch. She has naturally olive skin. She used to hate it, but she used to hate it that I wanted her to be a guy or a male police officer. I was quite happy being John. And every game we played, I was always a boy. Um, yeah. So I think from a very, very early age, I've identified as as a, um as what society deems a boy in a female body. So, um, when [00:04:00] it came to realising it when you're older, um, how did you feel about that? I think, as I say, I was 27 which is quite late in life, considering I've, you know, had had been feeling like a boy since I was three or four. when I came to the conclusion that I wasn't a guy and I actually stopped dreaming, you know, in my subconscious that in my night dreams that I was a boy and started accepting the fact that I was a girl. And, uh, [00:04:30] I think I was trying very much to live congruently with their female body for the fact that my body was female and I started a relationship. I was actually on the verge of coming out as gay was the night before I was going to talk to my parents. I'd watched Alan DeGeneres her comedy show back then, um, her coming out episode and it had really touched me. I was like, Yeah, that's totally [00:05:00] me. So I was going to go into my parents' bedroom, kneel at the foot of the bed and say, Hey, I'm sorry, but I think I'm gay. And I didn't for some reason and that that night, actually, I went off to work. I was working as a security officer, is a bouncer on the door of pubs and clubs in Auckland. And, um, yeah, good times and ended up having a few drinks after work. 3 a. m. ended up in sinners bar ironically, and ended up getting together with one of the security officers and thus [00:05:30] beginning a three year, um, emotionally abusive relationship. You were a security guard. There was some things I don't know about you yet. I have a black belt in hot day. I used to be a lot fitter. I'm not anymore. Don't hurt me. Well, I'm I'm just shocked. There used to be a security guard. Yeah, well, we had We were It was a security company, but effectively, we were on the door. We were bouncing. I loved it. Ok, um, did [00:06:00] you feel that you had to keep your sexuality a secret? I think I did. And I think I felt a lot of shame because of my faith. I. I thought that I'd been a Christian since I was 16. I, um, had a really awesome time with God when I was 16 and and, um, had experienced what people called Born again. I, um, was filled with the Holy Spirit and the grass was greener and the sky was bluer and life was awesome. And that lasted for about two months or exactly two months, Two weeks and two days before [00:06:30] I went back to my old habits and I was drinking and smoking and, um, smoking marijuana. I, um, have an extensive history of abusing alcohol and, um, at times jokes, Um, so yes, two months, two weeks, two days. I remember that. But I years later came across an old Bible that I had, and I'd written in it that I surrendered my life to Jesus, and I was actually 11 years old, so my faith has been very strong continues to be so today. And so because [00:07:00] of what? Um today's translations of the Bible say about homosexuality and what other people have said about it, I felt not a deep shame, but just a fear that it wasn't a belief myself, that it wasn't right and it wasn't OK, so I tried to hide that. So I mean, just what I said earlier about being on the verge of coming out and then ending up in a three year relationship with a guy who ended up being obviously a wrong choice. Very abusive, possessive, controlling relationship. Yeah, II. I didn't do myself [00:07:30] any favours by not being honest with myself and not being honest. I mean, God, God's known me since before I was formed in my mother's womb. So he's known he's known each of us before we were born, But, um, yeah, I now believe that I'm living an authentic life. I've forgotten the question. Did you feel that you had to give a That's right, I. I felt that it wasn't OK back then. Now, not ashamed. Um, so you've come out now? Yeah, [00:08:00] and only about 18 months ago, actually so really, fairly recent. I, um I decided I was living a lie and that it's OK. I think the biggest struggle was with my faith. And when I came to the conclusion that God loves me unconditionally, and that's what it's all about, what he's all about, I am. Is that your Yeah. No, no. Um, yeah, I, um What was the question again? I came out. Yes. No, [00:08:30] that's right. And then I decided that it was going to be OK that I had no one to be accountable to apart from my creator. So I, um So, um, now that you're out, um, how did you tell people that you were out? Yeah, that's what I was going to go on to. Now I can tell you the story. So it was a Sunday night family dinner, as we traditionally have, and we're sitting around the table, and, uh, I believe my sister pointed out something on the Oh, no, that's not right. My sister decided that we could [00:09:00] all do with having a more be more open and vulnerable with each other. And, um, not just talking about service service stuff at the dinner table. So she said, Um, why don't we all share something about ourselves? And I said, OK, I'll go first. I think I'm gay and that was that. And that was me voicing it for the first time too publicly. Um, and I thought my mum was going to take it the hardest. I thought that she because she's, um [00:09:30] she's Christian also. My my dad still plays the organ at an Anglican church. Um, but he's pretty open minded about things, so I didn't think it would affect him as much. Mom surprised me and just said, Hey, look, you know, we want you to be happy. Dad said the same thing. I think they've known longer than I have. I've probably known since I was young as well. Um, my sister, of course, very open and accepting. As with my brother. Um, so yeah, so, um, they react so their reaction was fairly positive, [00:10:00] very much so. They love me unconditionally. And that, to me, is a God response. You know, that's that's exactly how God is, too. He loves us unconditionally. There's nothing we can do that can separate us from his love. So, um, as for telling other people. Everybody is being positive or Yeah, I believe I came out on Facebook. So if you were to go into my timeline, um, about a year and a half ago, it'll be there. I can't remember what [00:10:30] I put. I'll have to go back and have a look myself. Um, but I wasn't ashamed. I've not been ashamed of being a Christian for all of my life. And I refuse to be ashamed of being gay and definitely not ashamed of being both. I remember how I came out the closet to people through Facebook, Facebook, through Facebook, the power of Facebook, the brave for I was pretty much just, like, send a send a massive group email and not have to worry about talking to people individually. Maybe. Yeah. So, [00:11:00] um, what was I gonna say? I've lost re, um How do you feel about all all of it together Now I feel really good. I feel I find I'm finally living congruent to my spirit, my spirit and my my emotions and my body, my mind are all as one now, as a part, you know, as opposed to feeling separate. That that that I wasn't, um I don't like the word congruence so much, but [00:11:30] I didn't feel like everything fitted. And now I feel like I fit. I fit in my body. I'm you know, I am who I am. So did you actually get any negative responses at all? I've had some interesting discussions again on Facebook threads, Um, from people who are my brothers and sisters in Christ Who I loved pieces. I know they love me. I know they want the best for me. I know that they're, um, standing on scripture and what the Bible says and good on them for being faithful to that. I also stand on scripture and, um, [00:12:00] in my personal relationship with God. And I've done a lot of research and found out that, um, that some of the scriptures have been don't want to use the wrong word here, but must translate it from original Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic And, um, that when When they talk, for example, in the old Testament, when they talk about, um, homosexuality being an abomination, it was actually acts like, um, sacrificing to idols where they, um, involved sex acts. Um, [00:12:30] with Children. Um, rape. So rape paedophilia all those things that remain today to be an abomination to God. None of that has changed in any way. But but love. There's a difference between love and lust and, um, the message version of the New Testament, which I actually like. It's a more contemporary version. Um, also, I believe God inspired, um, the guy who wrote it talks about in in Romans 1 26 I believe, is a Scripture that's often thrown at me about women [00:13:00] lying with women and men lying with men. Um, it talks about all lust and no love, so there's a big difference. This is where people are defiling themselves and defiling each other because it's it's a you know, it. It's a it's a sex thing, and it's not a love thing. And I believe intercourse and sexual relations intimacy of any kind of physical intimacy is a spiritual thing. It's a deep connection, so it doesn't need to be cheapened by, you know, not loving the person or being loved by that person. So, um, going back to, [00:13:30] um, when you came out, did you have any support? Yeah, very much. So, Um uh, more so from Non-christian friends who who weren't judging in any way. Um, actually, though, you know, I also had support from from, um from Christian friends from Christian friends who were compassionate and, um, non judgmental and aware that they, you know, But for the grace of God, go, I [00:14:00] Yeah. Yeah. So now, um, what do you do now with your six hours? Do you go out with a pride flag marching around? I, um I wear my peace Rainbow peace bracelet a lot. I have a rainbow coloured band My girlfriend put on my bag that I use for chaplaincy work. I have a big gay umbrella which I left at my parents' place yesterday. I mean, I don't know. It's like, you know, I'm a human. And first and foremost, I'm [00:14:30] a child of God. I'm Christian. And after that, I'm every other aspect of my life and and and my sexuality and who I'm in love with is, you know, is one small part of who I am. Ok, now, for some more personal questions, um, so you're currently in a relationship at the moment, right? So before that, did you dated anyway, is also a female or something like that I [00:15:00] or feminine feminine guys? No feminine guys? No, um I years and years ago. About 15 years. 00, gosh. How old am I? Um, about 15 years ago, I, uh, went out one night with a woman who was a lesbian, and this was while I was engaged to be married to a man. So I was still, um, undecided myself. And we went out to dinner. She [00:15:30] And if she's listening to this, she'll probably laugh and and slap me. But she, um She tried to jump on me, not jump me. But she tried to jump on me outside, but had a few too many to drink. And, um, yeah, didn't, uh, didn't go well, but II I mean, I don't know if I'd call that a date. I was engaged. So no, it wasn't a date. I just went out and had dinner with her. So has, um, any If you've been out or you've been in the [00:16:00] closet for so long affected, um, your relationships or being out affected your relationships with you mean personal relationships? Yeah. Um, yeah, I. I think I've chosen some interesting guys that I've been in relationship with um, long term. And, uh, yeah, I don't know if that's just me attracting a certain kind of person or what the story is, [00:16:30] and I mean that I'm not going to say that. That's why I'm now attracted to women. That's obviously not the case. I have been so since since an early age. Um, I think at a younger age, I was more like I had a crush on a teacher. Female teacher, for goodness knows how many years at school. Um, but it was never a sexual thing. It was, um yeah, purely emotional and probably looking for a mother figure as such. Ok, um, how do you meet other people? [00:17:00] Generally? Well, depending, um, if I was looking for a female partner. Yeah, OK, um well, I'm in a relationship with someone I care for deeply and and would love to one day marry, um, if I was single, and if I felt it was, um that I was ready to be in a long term relationship then, uh, you know, I'd like to say church, I'd like to find someone who has a similar world view. Um, someone on the same path as me. Someone [00:17:30] um, with a passion for God And who wants to love others as he loves us? Um, it wouldn't be in a pub or a club. That was the case. Even when I was dating guys, I, um Yeah, I guess because I had a for alcohol. It wasn't going to be wise to find someone who had a similar thing going on, so yeah, I don't know. I think I'd meet them through guess. I don't know. I'm sure God would just put them in my [00:18:00] path. How about with my current girlfriend? How about in general in general, how you meet other people in general? How do you mean? Oh, anyway, how do I become? How do I just meet people? I'll just talk to Randoms at the bus stop. I will talk to anyone and anyone. And I love people. It doesn't matter who they are. I'll stop and talk to someone homeless on the side of the street. Ask them how their day is going. Um, I can sip champagne with with, um, members of parliament [00:18:30] with my baby finger in the air, so yeah, I don't know. I mean, I meet people online on Facebook that? Um, yeah, they made They have similar interests. I meet people wherever I go. So has you been religious affected you in any way or, um affected your relationships in any way? Um, I don't like the word religious, because spirituality [00:19:00] I don't I remember. And when I was at this camp at 16, um, I remember somebody saying that Christianity isn't a religion. It's a relationship with God, and I like that very much. Um, having said that, there are now a lot of, um, churches and people who call themselves Christians, who I do see acting very religious, and, um yeah, sadly so. But who am I to judge? That's between them and God. Um, has it affected relationships? I, I Yeah, I don't know. I think now [00:19:30] I mean, being welcomed into into Rainbow Youth, a secular organisation who, you know, with the majority of people having been hurt by the church as a whole, um, they've been more more than welcoming. And yeah, I don't know. I probably not not affected. No, maybe the other way around. Maybe my, um, Christian friendships have been affected by me being gay, but that's their issue, not mine. [00:20:00] OK, what's your definition on virginity? Good one. Seeing as it's a, um, a spiritual thing, I think I mean, obviously, physically, for a female, having your home and broken is what they consider breaking your virginity. I don't know. Maybe, um, loss of innocence. Just going that extra. Don't know losing your virginity. You [00:20:30] know, according to, um, Sex Ed Books is having sexual intercourse for the first time. But, I mean, maybe we can include oral sex with that. Um, yeah, yeah. So have you received any abuse or abusive behaviour from people because of your sexuality or your spirituality or your gender ID agency? I've had many a debate and many a discussion about [00:21:00] both, Um I think II I love it. I think we need to be open. We need to be able to discuss things freely. No one's got a right to judge anyone else's well view, um, their faith, whatever that happens to be, that's between them and and, you know, their creator. That's not anything for us to judge. And if people don't have a faith, don't believe in in an intelligent design or that the planet was created, that's their right and I respect that. Absolutely. Um and same with with who you're attracted to. [00:21:30] You know, that's not for anyone else to have an input in. I've had some really good discussions on on Facebook. People who are friends with me on Facebook are welcome to go and have a look and, um, add to them, by all means, you know? No, no, nothing. I would call abuse. Only people speaking, I believe, from their heart. OK, And finally, do you have any other comments, or do you want me to ask any questions you want me to ask? I think you've done well, Ben. [00:22:00] Yeah, it's been good. I'm enjoying looking forward to having Japanese lunch with you. Now. This was not a paid presentation. All right. Thank you for the interview. You're welcome, sweetheart. Have a good day. Thank you. God bless you.

IRN: 482
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_name_withheld_3.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003922
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089216
TITLE: [name withheld 3] - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Q12 (series); Rainbow Youth; coming out; family; feminism; homophobia; labels; lesbian; religion; school; sex; sexuality; youth
DATE: 22 February 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast [name withheld] talks about being young and lesbian in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So we have this anonymous person here. How old are you? I'm 18 years old, OK? Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Um well, I live a little bit north of Auckland, and I'm currently a facilitator for Rainbow Youth. I've known I was a lesbian for a few years now since I was about 15. Um, yeah. OK, Um what gender do you identify with female? And what culture do you identify with New [00:00:30] Zealand? European and your sexuality? Lesbian. Very lesbian. What do you like to be called as a die? OK, that's an interesting question. I I I don't actually really mind like I don't really like the toll dyke thing or the whole fame thing, So I think it changes every day. I know that sounds like really, really weird, but it does. Yeah. Um, and your way Are you like [00:01:00] a feminist? Oh, I I'm a total feminist. Like, unbelievably, I get so angry when I see things on TV or just things in general. They just make me so angry. Like whenever, like the subject of rape comes up or on in the newspapers or on a like a movie theme or something. It's just It really ruins it for me, because I It gets me really angry down these news. Why do they have just sort of real life situations? [00:01:30] Oh, God, I know. It's awful. Ok, um when did you realise that you were a lesbian? I would say in my early teens, um, it sort of started off with obsessions, like I called them obsessions when I'd be Really it was a phase. It wasn't It wasn't a phase, but I'd be into one of my friends for, like, a really long time. And it it didn't really I didn't identify [00:02:00] as being lesbian then. Then I thought it was just like I liked my friend. But I was like that for so long, and then eventually you sort of figure it out. But up until then, I hadn't so well, how did you feel when you realised that you had to feel like, Oh, my God. I had to keep it a secret. Yeah, Yeah, I did. Um, I was lucky enough to sort of have someone to come out with sort of thing. So we went to the youth group together, which was another nerve [00:02:30] wracking experience. Um, but it it was good to have someone to talk to. But as far as family and friends and things that I, I did keep it quiet for a long time. And when I was out, it wasn't because of my own doing, did you? How did you feel? Emotionally? Um, I I'm quite a religious person, so obviously I have struggled, and still sometimes do struggle about it. Um, especially when there's so [00:03:00] many people out there who are saying things, even though they sort of have no right to when you know, like you're going to hell or things like that. And even just like your own personal relationship with God, you've got to try and figure it out. Like why? Why would I have been made this way if he didn't want it or something? And then the people who say that we have to try and not be gay, which I just never really understood, but it it's had its fair share of struggles. So are you currently in the closet at the moment? [00:03:30] Um, with my family? Yes. With my friends? No. And with the rest of the whole school. No, that wasn't really up to me, though. That complicated there. Yeah, um, I was outed by my friends, and things go like crazy fast as soon as they get into As soon as a few people knows, Pretty much everyone knows, Um, I didn't have a bad time of it, though. Things were really good. Everyone was accepting. So, um, why [00:04:00] are you out to your family? Only I'm not out to my sorry. Sorry. Why are you out to your friends? Only because my family are really religious. And they they are. They are of the opinion that you have to have lived a little bit before. You would be able to know, Like at one point, Mom sort of saw that I was in the youth group page on Facebook and saw that I was wearing sort of. I had a rainbow earring, which was, like, my favourite earring of all time. And I wore it in my right ear and everything, and it was [00:04:30] really, really great. Um, but she found out about it and she got really angry and sort of said, If you come back when you if you come back when you're 25 you say that you're gay, then we'll support you. But if not, then you honestly have to live a little before you can say that you are. Do you think they think it's just a little phase to go through? I think they do. Um, at the moment it's II. I do keep everything really quiet around them. They think I'm probably over it, but [00:05:00] when I'm 25 they might get a bit of a surprise. Um, there's a theory that parents don't accept their Children to being their sexuality because they think that they have an ideal child of them being straight, having them or being a little bit about themselves. Do you believe in that theory? I think I do. Um, I think one of the main things for my mom is like getting married and having Children like she doesn't think that [00:05:30] you can be happy if you don't. So I think it's also partially her thinking that I can't be happy being gay because I want. I somehow wouldn't be able to get married and wouldn't be able to have Children. Would you want to have Children or be married when you're older, when I'm older? Potentially I haven't even thought about it, you know, get a girlfriend first, then maybe even not now. Yeah, it's not even legal yet. Well, we have civil unions at the moment. Yeah, Yeah, [00:06:00] I want to get married. Damn it. Just go to Canada. Yeah, Yeah. On New York. Oh, yes. New York or California now. Oh, that's good. Yeah. And like I think it's Spain. Sweden, I think South Africa as well. Ok, I want to go to Africa. I'll get married in Africa, South Africa, not Africa. South Africa is an African. It's [00:06:30] a different continent. Africa is a continent. Yeah, but not South Africa. South Africa is a country. Yeah, that's right. We're getting off. We're getting off topic here. Um, where was I, Um how did you feel? Um, when, um from how did you feel with the reactions that you've got from when you came out of the closet for my friends? They were amazing. Um, well, most of them were, You know, they they asked [00:07:00] so many questions. And now it sort of seems to be the defining thing that we ever talk about. So whenever we hang out, it's not like Oh, do you know what these people are doing or this or that. It's all like what's happening with you and your parents and what it seems to be an intense issue for them. And I don't know. I miss talking about normal things, but it's like as far as that goes, it's fine. My parents' reaction, as in my mom's sort of semi reaction to a rainbow earring, which wasn't even me coming out at that point, [00:07:30] she we were in the car and she was. She started crying and yelling and screaming at me, and she was driving the car and like, swerving all over the road like about to crash like crying. And she was, Oh, like I should take you out of your all girls school and send you to live with your Nana like, And I was sort of thinking, Well, that's not gonna like change anything, you know? Um, so and then I was like, Look, Mom just pull over. So we pulled over on the side of the road and she's still yelling and screaming and crying, and she was really upset about it, which it made [00:08:00] me upset, and I didn't. I like putting conversations like that off and just have it sort of forced on you like that to talk about it and the way she was. Like, you don't like girls, do you? You know, like you just don't like, like, for me. It's like you don't like boys, do you? Oh, come on. Look at that girl over there. And you're just like, No, no, no, no. But just the way she said it, it made it made me feel like I couldn't be like, Yeah, actually, I do [00:08:30] a lot like she just made it sound like she was like, really? It was just, like, a surprise to her or something, like, Oh, you're not interested in girls, are you? And I was just like, uh, II. I don't don't know, Like, I sort of said generic answers at that point, but a non committed noncommittal answers. So, um, with you, uh, with your little friends group, you've been practically forced as centre of attention kind of thing when they talk about your sexuality, [00:09:00] right? Yes. In a way, um, I sort of have moved groups and not not because of that. Just hanging out with a bit cooler people now you could, you could say, moved on like my original group. It was like the hugest deal because they'd sort of known me when I was straight like No, no, no. Like, they've they've sort of grown up with me and sort of always seen me as being straight. So to be not straight was a huge change for them. [00:09:30] So that became, like, the big sort of deal. And whenever we talked, it would be about that sort of thing or it just just all these little things. Um but with my new group of friends, I sort of moved into the group being out. So it's not a big deal for them at all. Like, I saw some of my friends on the way here at Queen Street, and I was like, They're like, What are you doing? And I said, Oh, I'm just being interviewed by my friend. They go, What for? I was like, Oh, some gay documentary. And, um yeah, and they were just fine [00:10:00] with it and just sort of carried on it. It's It's different. Yeah, where they like. Wow, you got to be on the document. Yeah, they were. They were really like impressed. They're like, Oh, I've never been asked to be interviewed for anything. They were, like, really upset because they think they're never going to get jobs because they've never had interviews. Sure, I brought them around. I go interview with them next. Oh, OK, I should have. Oh, well, text them. Text them now. Now they're on their way home. Depressing, but OK, um, did you [00:10:30] get any support or did Do you have any support? Um, not from my friends or from my family. I know that sounds strange, but the girl who I sort of did come out with, as in who was a really good friend of mine at the time We went to a queer youth group together, and that was really good. Um, we we met a lot of people through that. A lot of people through our own school as well, So we were all sort of connected through that. And whenever I have an [00:11:00] issue or anything that I need to talk to someone about, I talk to one of them, which is sort of where I get my sort of support from and then in return, I'm always there for them if they've got anything they want to talk about, but just just things that you feel like you can't talk about with your straight friends because most of them just don't get it. Yeah, OK, now for the more personal questions. Have you ever been in a relationship before? Not a proper relationship, not a proper. Are you currently in a relationship? Not in the current relationship. [00:11:30] Um, is there a reason why I'm extremely picky when it comes to people like I I'm not sure if it's like a religious thing, because I know a lot of people like no sex before marriage. I'm probably sort of like no relationship until you're sure that you almost want to marry the person. I know. That sounds like really extreme. Um um, I'm going to start university soon, which will probably give me a bigger portal for meeting people through. But I'm I'm not sort of a combination [00:12:00] of not knowing enough people and being really picky, picky, really picky. Yes. Um, is does you being out to your friends and not out to your family affects the way that you want to be in a relationship with someone I don't think so. I think if I was in a relationship, I would be open with my family about it. And I would also be open with my friends about it because it [00:12:30] wouldn't really be fair on the other person unless they were also in the same the same situation. It wouldn't be fair to sort of not acknowledge them as being important to you. To the people who are also important to you, I think. Ok, uh, how do you meet other people? So how do you meet other people? Mainly through the Queer Youth Group, which, um, I've become more involved with. So now I facilitate it, and because of that, we [00:13:00] get to meet more often and meet other people from other regional groups. And also, I'm not sure really how. But gay people really get to know each other just even though there's, like, sort of minimal contact, whether it's just random people, sort of adding you on Facebook or just like in the street, someone will just come up to you and be like hi, like even if they just recognise your haircut, I think, or something I'm not even I'm not even sure it doesn't happen to me anymore now that I've got long hair. But people always used to come up and talk to me when I had short hair. Yeah, I was just [00:13:30] noticed. Um, when I was looking out for it, I was like, Wait, is that Is that her? No, it can't be. Her hair is not long enough really fast. I'm thinking of cutting it off again. Not completely. Oh, no, no, no, no. Just just cut it short like it was in the beginning. Ok, um, another personal question. Are you a virgin? Yes, I am a virgin. Ok, Is that is there a reason why or [00:14:00] are you first of all because I haven't really been in a relationship yet. Um, which I think you sort of should be if you're going to have sex with someone, um, casual sex with people you don't know. Generally, it doesn't stick in my mind as something that I'd like to do. Um, yeah, that's probably the only reason. And our question is, what do you think defies virginity or virgin? OK, this is also a hard question because some people that I know would say [00:14:30] that you can define virginity, but some things obviously are Virginity. And some things obviously aren't. Um, yeah. I don't know how to, like, put that. Um I think I'm pretty mainstream with the general. Sort of. I'm mainstream with my definitions of sex I. I wouldn't say anything that wasn't sex wasn't sex. And if it's sex, I will be like that is sex. [00:15:00] There's nothing. Nothing doesn't fit in either of the categories. Um, have you experienced any abusive or abusive behaviour because of your sexuality or gender identity? Um, sometimes in the street, people have, you know, they have called things, or I know this sounds really sort of petty, but even just in graffiti, you know, when you you see, I think in Browns Bay at the moment [00:15:30] there's a certain bench and it's got faggots must die. Um, dirty queers, all sort of things like that. And every time I see them, I get by a vivid from and I scribbled it out and I write no hate. And the next time I come back, no hate has been scribbled out, and it's been written bigger. So it it it it's it's around. I might not have felt the full extent of it like other people have, but it's definitely there, and it's mhm. OK, And, um, do you have any last [00:16:00] comments or would you like me to ask you a question that is relevant or not? Um, no, I'm I'm fine. If there's anything else you'd like to ask, you can. Uh no, that's it. Thank you for the interview. That's all right. Thank you.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089215
TITLE: Andy Boreham - Creating Our Stories
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Andy Boreham
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Andy Boreham; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Lesbian and Gay Fair; Out in the Square (Wellington); Wellington; community; event management; identity; organisation; organising; social; support; volunteer
DATE: 21 February 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Andy talks about helping organise the annual Out in the Square community fair in Wellington.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So my name is Andy Ham. Um, I've been involved with a lot of events. I made a list here. Um, a lot of, um, pride events. Uh, we organise the the Pride Festival, which is sometimes a week, sometimes two weeks, Um, radio release parties, films, screenings, uh, cabaret events, Um, campaign launches parties. Um, and, of course, uh, out in the square, Um, in a protest here and there. [00:00:30] That's quite a wide range of events. Can you pinpoint kind of key things that are in all of those events that have made them successful, are there? Are there things that stand out? Um, I think probably the main thing is that they're targeted at a niche market like the gay lesbian, um, community. And there's not that many events that are put together. Obviously, um, we're a small part of of the community. So, um, when there are events, they tend to be supported. Well, if they organised Well, um and I think that's probably the [00:01:00] key to the success of a lot of of the events that I do when you say targeted. What? What does that mean? Um, they created by and for, um, GL. BT people, I guess. Um I mean, of, of course, their friends can come along and stuff, but, uh, largely, um, they aim at that at that market, so they tend to respond to the events and support them. So the events you're organising, are they things that you're already passionate about? And so is that something that kind of helps you organise [00:01:30] it? Or is it Do you know, do you take a more kind of removed approach? Um, I guess I'm passionate about, um, the gay scene in Wellington. Um, because, I mean, as I said, there's not a lot going on. So, um, my main passion lies in in having things that people can do here in Wellington. Um, yeah, There's not a lot of things that happen for the gay scene here outside of pubs and clubs. So it's always good to see that sort of happen. And, um, that's where the main passion comes from. How did you get involved in event management? [00:02:00] Oh, it goes a long way back. I think the first thing I took part in in terms of, uh, queer events was the outtakes Film festival. Um, I didn't do much But I just you know, I was able to see how how things are run, and and that was really interesting. And and the groups that come together to organise events, Um, so that was my first taste of it. That would have been oh, maybe 88 years ago. And then, um, I just slowly got involved. [00:02:30] Oh, I helped out with, um, the Gay and Lesbian Fair at Newtown School when it was still there when it was run by Wellington. I think it was, um, for a couple of years, and then they, uh, tended it out, I guess, sort of to the community. And that's when when I got involved in a in a more major way, when you did get involved in a more major way, why did you think that you could organise an event? What were the things that you were good at, that that that lead you into that area? I think probably mainly longevity, because a lot [00:03:00] of people come and go. It's a volunteer thing. Usually, um, so I mean, a lot of people have other commitments and and stuff. Um, and they don't have all the time in the world because it does take a bit of time. Um, so I found that I had the time. I guess, um, or the energy to to stick with events for a longer time. Um, that it required. I mean and see them from the the planning stage, right to to completion, because, I mean, especially out in the square. We have a lot of people that come along and volunteer for maybe a couple of months or even a couple [00:03:30] of weeks, and then then they're gone. So I think it Yeah, it takes longevity, um, in being interested, I guess, and and doing it can we take maybe out out in the square is, like, the main example of of an event and work out why it actually works. Can you tell me firstly, what out in the square is? OK, So out in square is Wellington's annual um, G BT. Um, fear it happens. Um, in Civic Square, [00:04:00] Uh, we generally get about 10 to 15,000 people. Um, it's, you know, there's about 50 to 60 stalls, um, with things for sale, food, uh, information, um, entertainment. Uh, and it's basically a day where, um, queer people and their friends and family can get together in a really visible location. Um, and her fun, basically. Was it always that large? Um, ever since we've been involved in Civic Square, it tend to be tended to be that large. [00:04:30] Um, that many people that come because it's such a you get a lot of through traffic, which was one of our main points. I mean, before the fear was at Newtown school, which was kind of in a cave. Um, and you got people going along that were going along, you know, they were choosing to go along. But out in the square now, in Civic Square, we get, um, quite a few 1000 people, probably half of them that come through, you know, is through traffic, and then they see what's going on, and they start taking part in, um, seeing the the queer community visibly in Wellington. Um, so [00:05:00] that was one of our main aims with moving it, um, and yeah, before it had moved when it was at Newtown school. What? What kind of, um, size audience were you getting? Oh, I wasn't involved very heavily, so I'm not sure, but from going along I'll probably say maybe through 1500 to 3000 people during the day. But they'd largely come along. You know, as I said, just to, you know, they wanted to go along, they planned to go along, and then they'd stay for the whole day [00:05:30] or or large parts of it. Yeah. So? So maybe we can look at the event now, which is in square. How do you devise that event? We basically come together as a group and decide. Um, I mean, largely it was already set out by by how the fear was before we didn't want to change it too much. So, um, you know, we stuck with the entertainment through the day that, um, the M CS, uh, and pretty much we kept it. How it was, except for [00:06:00] that, you know, a largely different venue. Um, but it tends to, in a way, put itself together. Um, I guess I wouldn't call it the market. But the community, I guess, decides how you know how out in the square looks from from the entertainers to the who's there with stalls and, um, stuff like that. We tend to sort of guide it along as opposed to devising it, in a way, yeah. So talk to me about when [00:06:30] you say the the the kind of community kind of drives it. How does how does that work? I'm not I don't understand. Well, we put out calls for support from the community for, um, store holders. Um, performers. Um, we don't tend to search for people to take part. We let them come to us based on, um, you know, putting out media releases and and trying to connect with the community. Um, and then they come to us. And I guess that's what I mean by the community. Sort of deciding [00:07:00] how it's gonna be because we don't tend to take a an active approach and deciding or choosing who's going to be represented there. It just sort of It's fluid. It happens, I guess. So. Why did you take that approach rather than going out and being through proactive and so you you you I guess it was the success of the fear. Um, we didn't we never really needed to go out and search for anybody because it's I mean, it's been running for over 25 years now, so it's got a lot of history. Um, people love, you know, they love the fear. [00:07:30] Um, so it's never been really at a point where we've had to actively search for for content, for for the fair. So in that way, we're really, really lucky. Yeah. Is it also quite hard that it has been running for such a long time? So you've got this kind of, um, history that that that that's there in terms of, you know, um, do you feel that you can't change stuff or that you don't want to change stuff? Well, we had a lot of opposition to the, um, actual move in the beginning. [00:08:00] Um, a lot of people from you know that have been around for the for the whole time. I guess, um, were against it moving they, you know, they traditionalist, I guess, um enjoyed the fear where it was and the history that was involved. Um, so they weren't too keen on it moving, but, um, that tends to have abated a bit, and people have realised that it really works, and it's growing and and moving into today. So apart from that, um, yeah, there is the history there so you don't want to change [00:08:30] it too much. But, I mean, as I said, we we let the community decide. So, really, they would decide somehow if they wanted it changed, and it would happen slowly. I guess not. Not straight away. When you were looking for other locations, were there other areas that you looked at in terms of where the fear could be in Wellington? Yeah, I think we looked at civic, not Civic Square. That's where it is. We looked at Cuba Street. Um, but that was probably too small. Then we thought about, um, the Botanic [00:09:00] Gardens because they had the grassy feel, you know, like the big gay out. But then again, it it went against the the, um, sort of accidental visitors. The the the larger community seeing our events. Um, so in the end, um, for visibility and and the fact that it's right in the centre, like right near the council and stuff like that, um, Civic Square really proved to be the best location. And also, there's a lot of events that take place there, um, throughout the year. So the council is well equipped to [00:09:30] to support events. Um and and it helps a lot. It's an interesting idea that the event I'm interpreting, what you're saying is that it's it's more than just about, um, the the the queer Community. But it's also a mainstream event. Have you had any discussions within the group that are organising this as to well, who we're actually aiming this at? Um, I guess, of course, it's mainly aimed at the queer community, but, um, there is a lot of [00:10:00] a lot of thought about the wider community taking part in and enjoying the day. Um, so we tend to we we try and make it as open to everyone. And when you say open to everyone, how how What are the things that you do that that actually make it inclusive? Well, we specifically went against, um, like, O overt sexuality. Um, that might sound really bad, but, um, we try and keep it a family event. Um, we like people of all [00:10:30] ages coming, people bringing their kids there. Um, so we have, um, avoided overly sexual, um, like performances and and stuff like that. I mean, there's a few performers who, um I know one for the, you know, pushing their sexuality in ways that are a bit controversial and probably wouldn't be suitable for Children. So we've tended to try and steer away from that sort of thing and keep it, um, family friendly. What would be an example? [00:11:00] We had some burlesque dancers that wanted to strip teas last year. Um, they were I think they were all It was just a straight group of girls. And, um, we watched one of the performances that they're thinking of doing, and it involved tassels and breasts and stuff like that, which is cool for an adult event. Um, but we decided to tone it down slightly. Um, just to keep it more family, more open to everyone. Does that also translate [00:11:30] into the kind of imagery you use for the the posters and the way you know, the kind of the words and the text that's used to promote the event? Actually, that's sort of contradictory to our poster, because we do have we tend to employ a few stereotypes in our imagery. Um, we've found that stereotypes. I mean, whether you agree with them or not, they tend to work in terms of grabbing attention from people who you're aiming at. Um, so I think this year we had a topless man on the poster. I think [00:12:00] maybe he was wearing leather, but, um, I mean, it wasn't overtly sexual, and it's a stereotype that people recognise, so they sort of connect with it. And, yeah, we found that wasn't too offensive. But we try and keep it quite G rated, obviously, to to sort of sum up our event as a family friendly place to go as a community event. Do you find there are tensions between people in terms of Well, how [00:12:30] do you promote this? How you know, how far do you push the boundaries or are pretty much people on the same page in terms of, you know, what should be there and what shouldn't be there. Well, with a square, we have quite a small group. So, um, there's not too many differing views, But, um, before when we had, uh, a a larger group, there was, um, always arguments and debates around representation of all the different. Um, I guess you call them stereotypes in in the community. Um, I remember [00:13:00] when we had some lesbians on the committee. Um, they were always really particular about what sort of images represented lesbians and the lesbian community. A lot of the images, they said, were, too. They didn't. I guess they didn't fit the stereotype. Like I did a poster one time because I always do the design. Um, and the lesbian members of the committee said that the, um images weren't lesbian enough that the girls looked too, too straight or too normal. So there's always [00:13:30] discussions about that, Um, representing all the different people sometimes. Um, we have debates about having, um, everyone represented on the posting the G, the L, the B, the T and everything in between, which can be really hard. Um, but yeah, there's a lot of discussion surrounding that. And I'm assuming words like queer and yeah, I mean, do do you have discussions around using that that kind of thing? Yeah. A few years ago, we decided not to use it, but we've sort of, um, swung back around because, I mean, it's a popular term, so I guess [00:14:00] we're reclaiming it. Um, what was the reason for not using it? We we look at a lot of the other groups in New Zealand and see what they're doing. So at that time, I think people were using the word rainbow to sum up, um, the communities. But that didn't really catch on. So I mean, it's really difficult to find a word that sums up everybody, and we don't really offer fit into this little box. So, um, the the word at the moment seems to be so, Yeah, we go with that now, so perhaps we can talk a wee bit about the organising [00:14:30] committee. How many people are on the committee and and how is that made up? Um, we have about probably only five to seven, permanent members on the committee. Um, we used to have a lot more. But as I said, people just tend to come and go a lot. So we're stuck to the small group. Um, of course, we welcome other members, but they don't tend to come along that often because it is quite an involved. I mean, it's a year round thing organising out in the square. So a lot [00:15:00] of people have other commitments, and they just Yeah, they can't come along. So, um, we have a small committee every year. We change the, um, the positions. We have a chairperson, a secretary, uh, a treasurer who stayed the same because he's good with money. Um, but we tend to shift things up, uh, change things up a bit. Um, and people take on certain roles that, uh, they do by themselves through the year. Um, and that tends to work quite well. Hm. So is that committee [00:15:30] self a pointed or how how does that work? Um, we have an a GM every year, and people are welcome to come along. Who are members of the, um, Society. I think it is. Yeah. Um, and vote. But, I mean, they tend to no one tends to come along to those either. So we just, um, at our age and we have a vote for for those positions. And then it's decided that day, and that's what happens with the rest of the year. Do you think that small number of people kind of volunteering or wanting to be part of the organising committee? Is that [00:16:00] quite common in community events? Or is this just a, um, something? I think so. In the groups that I've seen in Wellington, at least, um the groups tend to be quite small. They might have a wider group that they, uh, call on for ideas and stuff, but it just tends to be run by an executive group. That's usually 5 to 10 people, as far as I've seen. Um, I guess when you have those people that have been involved for a number of years, uh, in the small group you get to know each other and how you know all your strengths and weaknesses, and you [00:16:30] get to work together really well. And so in that respect, um, it works well, having small groups, but I guess it'll be really good to have to have larger groups. But, um, it just doesn't tend to happen as far as I've seen. Yeah. So do you have any thoughts about whether that idea of of having a kind of a a small committee as part of a society working on something like this or would you like to do it some other kind of way? What are your thoughts on on the way that that's kind of structured. [00:17:00] Um, I think it works with the smaller group. Um, when you have larger groups, you tend to get too many ideas being put in, um, in the decision stage And a lot of people, um, you know, they have quite extreme views, Um, and so they'll tend to stick their heels and and stop things from happening. Um, like I. I think I prefer smaller, smaller groups, [00:17:30] but with a lot of input from from the community during during the way, Um, that tends to work. Do you have an example of how something might not have happened because somebody stuck their heels in this? Is there anything that you can think of? Well, something I really wanted to happen out in the square was, um, you know, at fears and stuff how they have kids face painting. Um, I really wanted to do kids drag face painting, which I thought would have been really fun. Um, and a few members of the committee who were parents. So we I mean, I'm not a parent, so I respected [00:18:00] their decisions. Um, decided it would be a bad idea and a bit confusing, Um, or whatever the reasons were, so we didn't go ahead with it, but, um, I noticed that big gay out just recently They did a very similar thing and it went down really well. So I'm not sure if that, you know, was the best idea to pull it. But we we tend to listen to people who have expertise. So if someone's there, who's a parent? Um, and they think it's a bad idea. We tend to, you know, take that advice. So that never never [00:18:30] happened. So maybe breaking down the members on that committee can you kind of outline the areas that people work in? What? What are the things that they are responsible for? OK, so we have someone who takes care of entertainment. Um, we have, uh so they liaise with entertainers that contact us. Um, we sometimes organise, um, viewings of of entertainers or their material, online videos and stuff like that. Um, and then the entertainment liaison will bring that material to the whole committee, and we'll all [00:19:00] decide together, but they tend to work in that area. Then there's somebody who is a store holder liaison. Um, that's quite an involved, um, position dealing with all the, um all the inquiries about stallholder and and taking payments and liaising with them on the day helping them get the most out of the day. Um, we have a media person who puts together press releases and deals with the media. Um, and that person also tends to [00:19:30] work on, um, marketing collateral, like poster and and radio ads and stuff like that. And then we have a council liaison, The council. We work very closely with them, um, with their events team. So we have someone who, um their role is to specifically deal with the council and organising the the location. Um, the equipment, they supply a lot of equipment. So, um, it helps to have one person dealing with them, and then we have, um the the chairperson sort of oversees the whole the whole [00:20:00] lot. Um, as you'd expect. And the, um, treasurer deals with the money, and I think that's probably about it. Yeah. Has that structure always been in place, or is that something you've just kind of come to in the last couple of years? Oh, I can't even remember it. It should have been always in place. I guess it would have been. Yeah, when we put the the new group. When we put out Wellington together, Um, I think we sat down and came up with a process that we don't use it anymore. Um, it tends to largely [00:20:30] organised itself, but, um, I'm sure we came up with that based on, um, discussions, Um, and experience, I guess. And you were saying earlier that this is a year long event for you in terms of planning and that can you take me through the the the kind of stages of of the event and the timeline. OK, so right after the fair has taken place, we tend to, um, try and book the next year. When is the fair taking [00:21:00] place? Um, it took place this year in January. I'm really bad for dates. I think 25th of January. And the reason it's in January is because it fits into the summer City festival for the council. So we get free promotion, um, through radio ads and Dominion posts and stuff as part of Summer City, which is really good. Um, so as soon as that's happened for, uh, in terms of planning the next year's event, we try and lock down the date for the next year as soon as possible, and then we have a probably a two or three month break because it is [00:21:30] quite important to clear your head. Um, it's quite a stressful, uh, at the last, you know, in the last stages and on the day, it can be quite stressful. So we have a bit of a break, and then we meet probably once every month, up till about October, or, like, three or four months before the event. Um, and then it becomes it slowly becomes more regular. So it I mean, there's no formula written down for this. I think we just decided at the time, um, we move the meetings to fortnightly [00:22:00] and then before the event, it's weekly for about probably two months. Um and then we just, um, those group the group meets together, and we update each other on what's going on in those positions and, um, work out what needs to happen. So in those first meetings, So you have your break after the January fair in those first monthly meetings, what kind of things are being discussed? What? I think the first meetings we discussed the fear. That's just been, um what went wrong? [00:22:30] What went well, what we'd like to do again? What We'd like to try, um, stuff like that and feedback. We do, um, store holder feedback forms. So we go through those, um, we asked them everything from, um the size of their store to entertainment. What they thought of the entertainment. Um, and we collect that material and discuss how to move forward for the next for the next year. What kind of feedback do you get? There's lots [00:23:00] of specific feedback, like things like wanting more shade. Um, that happened, I think. Last year's year 2011, We, um, put stores in the middle of the square for the first time, not under marques. Um, and that was really popular. But people said that they needed some shade from the sun. So we took that feedback. And then this year, we had, um, umbrellas and stuff for the for the store holders. Um, then there's stuff more general stuff, um, [00:23:30] about packing in, picking out access to the square, um, comments on the store holder liaison and basically things that they think could be improved. Or, um, yeah, for the next year, are you able to share some of the, um, kind of overall ideas, was it, you know, being positive feedback. Negative feedback. Well, overall, it's generally positive. Um, the negative things tend to be things that are out of our control. Like access. Um, the [00:24:00] council stipulates the time when you have to be in and out of the square, and they're quite strict about I mean, rightly so. They're quite strict about, um, vehicles that can be in there how fast you can go. Um, what time you need to be there, What time you need to be out. Um, so it's generally about that sort of thing. Also, they're really strict about food. Um, you you need if you want to sell food. And this is one of the problems we had when we moved the here as well, because they weren't so strict at Newtown school. Um, but it turns out you can't bake things [00:24:30] at home and sell raffles or sell them, um, without a food certificate. So that was a, um, something that people complained about, obviously. Um, but, you know, we just help them with the process and and help them to get those certificates and and what they need for for the upcoming fears that kind of certificate. Is that quite a a long process to go through or how? How does that work? Um, I don't think so. I don't know the specifics about it. I've never dealt with it myself, but, [00:25:00] um, all it is is there's There's a list of rules, I think, um, to do with food preparation. Um, and some of them you can't use butter or something. I think unless you have a unless you prepare the food in a commercial kitchen, which I think is fair enough, um, with food, poison or whatever. Um, but there's a set. I mean, there's a set of rules that the council provides, and it's, I think, two pages long. It's pretty simple and straightforward. Um, that outlines the, um, the process in order to get [00:25:30] one of those certificates. Um, and it was hard for the smaller groups, um, like Wellington and stuff that wanted to do raffles baking raffles and and stuff like that because they couldn't do it. But, um, are there any queer specific regulations that the council puts in place for for a queer related event? Or is it just you that's pretty much across the board. Um, we used to have I mean, this is nothing to do with the queer thing, but we used to have alcohol at the fair. Um, which tends to be popular at these sort of events [00:26:00] we've found overseas. Um, it tends to be about getting drunk, but, um, that became, um, not allowed, So we haven't been that alcohol since then. Um, which is fine by me, but, um, yeah, it's pretty much it's the same rules across across the board, which I think it should be. No, no. Queer specific rules. So you've got those first meetings which you you're getting feedback. What? What then happens? What? What what's the timeline in terms of, You know, um, I'm thinking [00:26:30] in terms of, say, like, marketing and, um, walking down stall holders, locking down performers. Well, first, we tend in the middle of the year. I think by August, we have to put together a council report and a sponsorship report in our annual, um, in your report, um, which is really important for applying for funding. Um, and then I think we apply for funding around October, which is [00:27:00] quite a bit before the fair. So you need to be on the board there. Um, and in terms of marketing, we don't tend to. Well, first, we put out media releases, um, mainly in gay media, um, looking for store holders and entertainers and around if the fear was in January, we were doing it around November, December. Um, and we tend to get quite a good response from that. But in terms of, um, standard marketing, we we don't do that till three weeks before because [00:27:30] we find that people get bored and forget the message. So it's got to be fresh, like street posting and stuff. We do that three weeks before, but with the fear being in January, everyone's closed over Christmas. So you sort of have to prepare it and get it printed before everyone leaves at Christmas to make sure you have stuff on time. But yeah, it's It's an ongoing thing, I guess so. As a store holder, what would I need to provide? Uh, the organising committee with what? What are the things I would need to do? OK, so we have a form that's [00:28:00] on the website that people can download. Um, and it's got all the information. Um to do with what size your store is? Um, what we supply we supply a table and some chairs, I think in the space. Obviously, um and we need to find out if they have if they need power, if they need access to to other things like that, and we can place them in a certain place. Um, depending on the requirements, um, and basically what they're doing, Because in terms of food [00:28:30] and stuff, at least, um, we, um, try and get a certain a limited number or a certain sort of store like we wouldn't want three or four coffee carts. Um, we we want people who come along to have a successful time. So, um, one or two coffee carts at the most would be, um, something we'd go for just so they that they want to come back. Um, and, uh, yeah, we work out what they need, and they sign the agreement and pay their money, and [00:29:00] then do they pay, uh, a percentage of their profit on that day as well? Or is it just No, we've thought about that, but, um, we haven't implemented anything like that yet. Um, I think they used to do that at Newtown School. It was either a set fee or a percentage. And you got to decide. Um, but yeah, we just have the set fee. Um, we we get a lot of support from the council, so we, um, try not to, um, you know, they give us such good support that we don't really need to get more. So [00:29:30] the the amount of money we get from the store holders covers, um, the equipment we actually give them. So, like the store, the trestle table, The chairs, um, is covered by that largely covered by that. That $30. Um, but we have talked about doing a percentage. I guess we'd think about it in in the coming years. So you've mentioned the council a number of times in terms of funding and sponsorship. Can you talk me through how that process of applying for funding works? And, you know, what are the kind of [00:30:00] key things that you're targeting when you in your applications? Ok, so with the council, um, one of the main things that they sponsor I mean, they give us cash, but one of the main things is the use of obviously of Civic Square and, um, all the equipment, like the stage and the sound. And, uh, they supply the sound technician and they set it all up, and then they clean up and stuff like that. Um, basically, I guess the first step, if someone was going to put on an event is to, um and apply [00:30:30] for funding from the council would be to, um see if there's other events that are already covering that. That that niche market, I guess. Um, I think the council, um you know, any council wants to have events, um, in their city for all the different, um, aspects of of the community. So, for example, if someone wanted to set up a second gay and lesbian fear in Wellington, I don't think they have much luck from the council. So it's, I mean, a large part of it is finding something that the [00:31:00] council needs or or wants. Um, so in your application, what kind of, um, words would you have to make a successful application? I don't know specific words, but I would, um, definitely outline what the event is going to offer to to that council in terms of, um, something they need. They need events that represent, um, um, wide aspects of of the community and stuff like that. Um, [00:31:30] it it's really important to have if you haven't done, um, applied for funding from them before to have support from the community, maybe support leaders or something like that. Um, outcomes. What? You what you hope to achieve? Um, they always love that sort of thing. Um, if you can outline what you know, a mission statement, I guess for your event and what your event will achieve within that that community, Um, in terms of out in the square, it's, you know, we play on on the visibility, um, normalising [00:32:00] the GL BT communities of Wellington with the wider community and also Wellington City Council prides itself on, um, being in events, capital and being, you know, diverse. Um, so play on that. Basically, look at look at the website and find out. I guess the mission statement, if they'll call it that of that council, um, what they claim to be what they claim to do. And then you can play on that, I guess. Interesting. In your mission. You you're [00:32:30] using the word normalising. How easy was it to actually put that word into a statement? Because I'm assuming a lot of, Well, some people in the community would say, Actually, I don't want to be I don't want to be. Well, thankfully, the application to the council only get seen by them. So you don't need to worry too much in that process of, um, annoying the certain factions of of the community, but yeah, I mean people. A lot of people don't want to be normalised. They don't want to be part of the rest of the community, but, um, [00:33:00] in terms of getting the funding from the council and stuff like that, you need to, I guess, use language and stuff that they understand. It does it. You don't have to all agree with that with the, um, funding from the council. How much? How much would you get A year? Um, we try and push it up every year. In the beginning, I think we got about 3000. But that's in cash a lot. Most of it is the use of the of the square. Um, the sound equipment, the stage equipment, which costs, you know, a lot more. Um, but last year, we put [00:33:30] it up to, I think, 6000 for the art games because we were coinciding with the art games. And this year, um, we decided to leave it at that level as well. Um, and they paid, I think, 5000. So, um, generally we'll try and push it up every year. And then you can say you're growing the event and making it better and blah, blah, blah, and they tend to, um, approve of it and want to support it. So, um, yeah, we try and get more every time. How do you know? As a group, if it's [00:34:00] been successful, what are what are what are the measures that you would make it a success or a failure? Well, in terms of myself, I tend to go by the vibe of the day. I. I think you can judge a lot from that. What you hear from people? Um, also, the queer community tends to be sometimes quite vocal with their negative opinions. Um, so if you have done something wrong, or if something didn't work, you're going to hear about it. Um, so we keep an eye on, um particularly message boards and stuff like that because a lot of people don't say [00:34:30] the stuff to your face. So we look at the games in forums and, um, any other comments in and media and stuff like that? Um, but yeah, mainly. It's just the vibe of of the day you can feel if it's been a success, I guess. And how happy people are. Do you have any other forms of sponsorship that that you have with other organisations? Yeah, We, um, always have a lot of support from the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. Um, they like to have a big, quite a big presence [00:35:00] at events like out in the and and stuff like that. Um, it's a great way for them to connect with their audience. Um, so they tend to give us, um, cash grants every year as well as use of their equipment. We use the keys for, um, the grass stalls. Um, we were required to have marquees, so yeah, that the foundation bought some specifically, um, one year for us to use at the fair, and then they keep them for the rest of the year and then ship them down. [00:35:30] So that's, you know, a huge help. Um, also, they have a big presence on the day. They have, um, a lot of information. Um, safe sex, the safe sex message going around. Um, also other queer groups in Wellington like rainbow Wellington. Um, gay line. They tend to, um, be quite supportive. Um, of course. Rainbow Wellington used to run out in the square, so they they're sort of like parents, I guess, wanting to support their [00:36:00] kids now that they've moved out of home. Um, so they're always really helpful. Um, also, Rainbow Wellington has a lot of members that, um, have information if you need it. Um, as well as you know, people who used to work on the fear at Newtown school. So that's always a good resource. Um, yeah. And sometimes we print. Um uh, sometimes a and square coincides with the Pride festival, so we print a booklet. And so advertising and the advertising, um, apart [00:36:30] from covering the cost of the booklet, which can be quite a bit, um, goes towards, um, running the the events. Um, which can be quite helpful. Also, um, we ask a lot of businesses in Wellington for, um sponsorship. Uh, like, uh, prizes, like data tabs from S and MS. And, um, stuff like that. And people are generally forthcoming with that sort of thing, which is also really helpful. And it gets them promoted on the day as well as, uh helps make [00:37:00] the events a bit more exciting having you know, prizes and stuff. Um, yeah. Are there any other kind of, um, ways of getting money into the event? I'm thinking of things like entry fees or things like that. Well, the big gay out in Auckland, they have, um, a gold coin donation on the entry to Coyle Park. Um, we think we might try that one year, but it won't be a compulsory thing. It'll just be if you want to. Whereas [00:37:30] in big gay out, I think you have to give a donation, which is fair enough as well. Um, yeah, we thought it doing that, but, I mean, we don't want We also don't want to annoy people that have come to the fear for 20 years for free, if you know what I mean. So, um yeah, any sort of changes like that we take, um, with with discussions with uh, the community also people that have run the fear in the past. Um, you know, find out what they [00:38:00] think about that sort of thing is it's quite helpful. So is the aim of the sponsorship and fundraising to break even Or are you wanting to have some kind of surplus? Um, we tend to have a surplus now, which I don't know. I don't know if it's a good thing, because maybe it means we've asked too much from people. Um, but it's also good to carry it to, you know, carry it through to the next year. Um, but yeah, we definitely want to break even. I mean, I don't We've always [00:38:30] broken even. I think that would be the first aim. Um, I think one year we had to access the the mayor's, um, emergency fund because something Oh, I can't remember what happened. I think that the date got stuffed up and it turned out that we wouldn't have time to apply for the normal funding. I think so. That helped, but, um, yeah, I mean, definitely breaking even, um, ends. Also, it's good for [00:39:00] to have a If you have a surplus, it's good to, um, run other events during the year that can promote that main event. I mean, without Wellington at least, um, out in the square is is the main event. But we can also put on, um, other events that promote the fair and raise funds for the fair through the year. Um, and it helps having some capital there for that, if you can. So is it hard to break even on these kind of events I haven't found? It has been hard. Um, in the past, [00:39:30] it's been difficult when we've had Oh, how am I gonna put this, um, differing views on the committee of where the money should be spent and how much should be spent and how the event should come across 11 time. We sponsored a, um, gay dance party we gave them. I think $4000 and the whole committee was wasn't in agreeance with that, but it was a majority thing. And I think that year we lost money. Um, but [00:40:00] when I'm chairperson, I tend to be really conservative with money. Um, uh, I don't like to spend large amounts of money on on one thing, especially if, um if we're not gonna break even. I mean, I would never want to not break even. But, um, yeah, if you have quite a few differing views on how the money should be spent, it can be quite hard to keep things in check. Um, but we don't have that problem. At the moment, we haven't actually defined, [00:40:30] um, the kind of person that's on the the committee at the moment. Can you just give me a rough idea about the kind of age kind of gender sexuality at the moment? Do we have all gay men? Um, differing ages? I think mostly they're quite young. Early twenties, Um, excited. Sort of people that wanna, you know, spend numerous hours during the air putting together events. [00:41:00] Um, yeah, I think it's quite limited, actually, when I think about it, um, the group we don't have that much, um, difference through the group. And I think, um, I don't know. It might be a good or a bad thing, but I mean, certainly if people come along that want that have certain skills or whatever they want to help out, then we we open arm to that. Um, but it just doesn't happen often. Volunteers, volunteers. Um, what is that, [00:41:30] like getting volunteers from the from the queer community? It's difficult. We send out to media releases a couple of times during the year and always mention the fact that we're always looking for volunteers. Um, the whole committee, obviously is, is a volunteer. Um, but we also look for volunteers. Um, just to help out on the day that don't need to, you know, give their time for the whole year and even that can be quite tough. Um, that sometimes works to go to groups like [00:42:00] Uniq, um, or school there and ask for, you know, a block of volunteers at the same time. And then they can do something on the day or, you know, turn it into a fun thing. Um, but volunteers generally tend to be quite hard to come by because, I mean, obviously, a lot of people have other things they need to do and other commitments and stuff. Um, so in that respect, it can be quite hard. So we try and hold on to people that we have, um, when we can, um, which doesn't always happen, but yeah. Um, [00:42:30] there are volunteers out there. They're just limited. And also in Wellington. We've just had the out games which, you know, called on a huge group of people to help out. So a lot of people haven't had volunteer energy left, but yeah, I think that will be changing soon. So hopefully a lot of people get helped out with, um, with the art games, we'll be keen to come along and help with out in the square. Yeah. Do you have any kind of incentives to get volunteers to help out? [00:43:00] Not really. I guess we offer the same incentives as a religion. Um, socialising, um, achieving something, um, something to do in terms of, um, tangible incentives. There's not really anything we can. I mean, we can't spend that money on giving people meals and and stuff like that. So I mean, it is a big ask to, uh, to get volunteers, I guess, but, um, yeah, generally, it's the the socialising, the getting [00:43:30] something done, taking part in a In an event? I guess so. We tend to attract people who are interested in and and event management, and yeah, Has there ever been a discussion about having either paid staff or, you know, paid and volunteer staff. Not with at Wellington. We haven't ever been in that position. Um, and I, I don't know if there would be a position that would require that within, uh, within our group. But [00:44:00] if I guess if we were severely disabled because we missed a certain, I don't know, like a treasurer. At the moment, we have a really good, um, volunteer treasurer. Who? Um I mean, it's quite specific, um, looking after tax and working out budgets and and and cash flow and stuff like that. Um, I guess that would be a position where we could consider paying somebody, perhaps an accountant or something to, um to do that role. But that hasn't come up yet, so we haven't really [00:44:30] had any serious discussions about that. Do you have any kind of formula in terms of amount of volunteers to crowd sites? Like for if if you had 15,000 people through out in the square, how many would you need for that? Well, because volunteers are so hard to come by, we just try and get as many as we can. Um, so we haven't had the chance to, I guess, come up with an ideal number or turn people away or or something. Um, so, yeah, we just try and get [00:45:00] as many as we can, Um, in that respect, Yeah. We haven't really been in a position to come up with a I mean, is that annoying that you You don't get that many volunteers? Um, it's not annoying because I think I guess I understand. Um, that that it is a big ask, um, for people to to help out, um, and not get anything in return. That tends to be how society works these days. So, um, [00:45:30] and it fluctuates from year to year. Like sometimes we have quite a few people, and sometimes we have not many at all. I think this year we had less than 10 volunteers on the day or less than five apart from our team. Um, so we called on other people back here. It can be difficult. Is a is a big part of the organising, actually, just trying to call on friends, call on acquaintances [00:46:00] to actually get things done. Definitely. Um, I think the year before last, we had a group of about 10 to 20 volunteers that came in the morning and helped us set up. Um, and they were all friends of of the committee, Um, who don't come along to regular meetings. So, um, that that's quite a large part of it, I think with especially with with gay events in in Wellington, because Wellington is a small in our city as it is, let alone when you're talking about just the queer part of it. So, um, yeah, [00:46:30] that tends to be on the day. At least we tend to call on a lot of friends and nephews and stuff, which can be eye opening for them. What about marketing? How do you get people to attend? What? What are some of the strategies you use to get people coming along? 01 of the big ones would be online social media. Um, it's really helpful to get people to start talking about your event. I think, um, that sort of adds validity to it. Um, [00:47:00] so we try and get people involved in in, you know, online, um, passing things along. Then there's, um, street posting, which I think again, it adds sort of concrete or or validity to the event. Um, when you see posters up, you know that it's it's happening. Um, And then, uh, as part of Summer City, it's really good to have, um, their, um advertising that they fund, [00:47:30] um on on radio and in Dominion Post, which we'd never be able to afford. And then also, we try to work with with queer media like Express and GNZ to, um, get stories, um, sort of relating to the event um, published, um, that aren't so that aren't so obvious. Um, instead of, say, doing a story saying, Hey, you should come to square. It's more like blah, blah, blah is performing at out in the square. This is about the end blah, blah, blah. And then at the end, you say, [00:48:00] um, you know all the details out in the square Saturday blah, blah, blah. Um, and then people don't feel like they're being so blatantly targeted, I guess I think that helps. So when you are approaching media, you're you're actually giving them an angle? Yeah, we frame an angle, we try, and, um, especially with the entertainers, it's quite easy because they have, um, they want most entertainers want to promote themselves. So they have images and stuff like that. So we do little interviews, and, um, with [00:48:30] media, I've found that, um I don't want to offend anyone, but they can be quite busy, so it helps if you give them everything they need on a plate. So what we tend to do is formulate, um um, media releases that are, like, a finished story. Um, so they can see sort of an angle, and then they can see how it might work. And then they take bits from it here and there, Um, give them contact details for, um, relevant people that they could talk to, um to chase up. Um, and that tends to help a lot. Um, with [00:49:00] media and getting, you know, it is really important to send all that information because, you know, you could just send a lot of people think it's enough to just send, um, an email or something and say, Hey, we're doing this event. Can you do a story? Um, they they tend to ignore that. So, um, it helps to to give as much as as you can here. So what about getting stories into mainstream media? Have you had much success with that, uh, mainstream media usually, um, requires advertising [00:49:30] as well. Um, as as the content, the the editorial, Uh, when I suppose, um I say newspapers can be, you know, it should be separate from from the advertising part of it. Um, but usually it's not. So you know, they'll require that you buy advertising, um, in order to get that editorial coverage, and they favour people who have that, uh, that sort of money and a lot of the time out in the square, we we just don't have 7 $800 to put into one pot, if you will. Um, [00:50:00] so that's been a struggle, but sometimes it's also I mean, it really depends who's who's working there and what they're looking for. It's getting media, I think is is large largely to do with luck. Um, and you're never going to know what they're looking for. Or you know what? Yeah, what they're looking for. So try your luck. Send them as much as as you can. Um, if you have some money, buy some ads. Um, and you'll probably have have more favour with getting editorial content. [00:50:30] What about TV and radio. Do you have any like? Yeah. Um, this year we tend to harass them every year. Um, this year we were lucky we had TV one come along and do a story, which is really good, Because out in the square at least, um, as I said, one of our main goals is is visibility. So the one news came along and they did a story, and, you know, you'd think that a story like Out in the Square would be in the last five minutes of the news. But it was in in, like, the first, um, segment. So it [00:51:00] was really, you know, a really visible, um, piece about, um, being in Wellington, Um, and what it's all about. And so that was really valuable. Um, I guess if you have that sort of coverage, you're not you're probably not gonna get it the following year. Um, you know, it's probably 23 or whatever, but, um, yeah, yeah. I find that people. Yeah, like, as I said, you're never gonna know what they're looking [00:51:30] for, So just just try it. And don't be embarrassed to hound the media. A lot of people think that it's embarrassing or you should sit back and wait for them to contact you, and it doesn't work like that. So you just have to harass them and not be embarrassed. What does that exposure on say, TV one do for you? Well, um, in terms of the normalisation, it helps a lot. But I found that mainstream media, they tend to play on the stereotypes a lot, which, um, doesn't [00:52:00] really help. Um but, I mean, it's it should slowly change, but, I mean, any visibility is good, especially when it's framed positively. Um, which it was, of course. Um, I would like to see more, um, or less rather stereotypes in in the media, but that's probably not going to happen soon. Um, in terms of like, uh, for example, at the big gay out, they you can watch the the media coverage. And almost all of the shots [00:52:30] are stereotypical images. Say topless guys drag queens, um, beers people with sexual fetishes and stuff like that when the reality is that most people just look like everyone else. Um, so that would be, you know, that's an interesting thing to probably watch out for. Um, but you definitely get the visibility on their terms. Um, and that can't all be bad. So yeah, which is interesting because you you were saying earlier about marketing to [00:53:00] or marketing to stereotypes to stereotypes. I think it's because, I mean, it's a double edged sword. Really? Um, they're so entrenched the stereotypes that it works. Like if you're going to have a poster for a gay party, I always tend to use really stereotypical images like a drag queen and a This sounds really bad, but a gay looking topless guy, Um, because whether you identify with the stereotype or not, when you walk down the street and you see 100 posters [00:53:30] for different events, you instantly recognise that it's aimed at you. Um, so while stereotypes aren't ideal, um, and probably quite damaging, um, they also can work in your favour for attracting, um, the market you're you're looking for. So yeah, it's it's really a double edged sword. In the time that you've been helping out with the event, have you had any surprises? I guess one of the main surprises we've had from out in the square is, I think the first [00:54:00] two or three years it rained the event. The first year we had it at Civic Square, it rained quite badly, and we found that people still came, which was a big surprise. And the following two years after that, we had to use our rain date, which was the Sunday, um, which isn't ideal. And you would think that, um, there'd be a lot of interest lost, but they tended to It was quite surprising that they tended to still be quite popular. Um, and a lot of the stall holders, um, were able to still come [00:54:30] the next day, which was really good, because a lot of them come from out of town. So the and stuff like that, Um, so I think it was quite surprises to see that, um, you know, even if the event gets rained off, it's it's still quite popular. So I think we've got a really good event to work with that that people love, which is it shouldn't be surprising, but yeah, it can be just going back to one of the first questions, which was, you know, can you identify the key elements of a successful [00:55:00] event? I'm just wondering after we've talked for just over an hour. Um, about all of these things. Is it possible for you to bullet point a couple of things that if you had to say to somebody, these are the things to do to make a successful event, What would that be? Firstly, don't be too ambitious. Don't, um It can be really easy to try and make the event of your dreams in the first time. Um, and I think things [00:55:30] take a bit longer to get popular and and get support from from people who are going to, you know, support you. So I think start more would be one of them. Um, probably This sounds really obvious, but pay your bills like it can be really easy to burn bridges with. People say you use an event location, and somehow you've gone over budget, and you can't afford it. Um, even though you might think you're not going to use that event that venue anymore [00:56:00] or or something like that, it's not worth burning your bridges. So just, you know, make sure you can, um, break even. Um, also another thing in terms of parties, um, and things that require ticket sales. Don't be too. Um liberal with how many people are gonna come. I think it really helps to work on the worst case scenario. So say you love it. If 300 came, um, budget for 100 coming, um, that [00:56:30] tends to help. And then any extra that come as you know, it's a it's a surprise and a positive. Um uh, thing. Don't be too scared to ask people for help and support. Um, like we talked about the media before, don't be too scared to harass them. Also, um, businesses that have, um, some sort of connection with the event you're doing. I mean, in terms of this, it's gay events. Um, so, you know, don't be too embarrassed to go to the businesses, like, say, bars, um, [00:57:00] saunas, even the the business associations, like, um, and Rainbow Wellington, and just ask for support. Um, a lot of the time they have, you know, people that at least people that know what they're talking about that could help you or or financial support. Um, just don't be scared or too shy to put put yourself out there and ask for help. Um, and also probably the last thing would be, um, don't be too proud. If people [00:57:30] say something's bad, try not to assume it's because they're just being negative and actually look into what it is they're saying and try and see it from their point of view and not your point of view. Um, and that can only really, um, help in in the future, I think. But yeah, that might be I can't really think of anything else. Just finally, Why do you do these events? Oh, I think because I'm a control [00:58:00] freak, to be honest. And, um, I spent probably five years, um, after I came out going to events, and I tend to look at them and think of things that I think could be done better. Um, which is kind of rude, I suppose. Um, but I I have I think I enjoy, um, the idea of of trying to make things better, [00:58:30] um, than than than I think they are, which is probably quite rude. But, um, it keeps me excited, and I always want to better myself and every event. You know, the next event needs to be better and better and better. Um, or else I'll just lose interest. So I think mainly it's it's the challenge, and and that's why I do it. And also I'm studying. So I have a bit of time. Things might change when I'm, you know, back to work. Um, but yeah, probably. Mainly the the challenge [00:59:00] making people happy like it's a really big thing in the queer community to have to lessen the amount of negative comments because people tend to comment negatively. Um, before they'll praise you. So also, that's, uh, that's one of my little goals is to, um, is to get those negative comments, um, down as much as possible.

IRN: 472
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_stephen.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003920
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089214
TITLE: Stephen - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Q12 (series); coming out; family; gay; youth
DATE: 7 February 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Stephen talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: We're here with Steven. Hello. Hello. What gender do you identify with? I identify as gay or homosexual. That sexuality. I mean gender, Male, male. OK, then you ask, What is your sexuality? Homosexual Dash Gay? Yes. And when do you When did you realise it wasn't really sort of a sudden overnight thing? It was just kind of you're aware of it, [00:00:30] but you just I didn't really classify it in terms of what society viewed it, as I just viewed it as a an attraction to men. And what I knew of gay, I thought to be something different, different coming from a slightly bigoted background. So I just assumed myself as male orientated as opposed to gay or homosexual, until I sort of searched in that area a bit more to find out more about what the community was, rather than just hearing one side of the story. How old were you when you realised? [00:01:00] Oh, well, um well, I never think it was sort of an age sudden realisation. It was just more of a woman. Weren't really that appealing to me in that particular kind of way. So in a way, you've always known it slightly. I suppose you could say that. How did you How do you feel about it? Um, you know, emotionally, I feel emotionally fine about it. The only problems I get, I just sort of find quite sad for the people who seem to hold them. [00:01:30] Did you ever felt that you had to keep it a secret? Well, I wasn't, you know, shouting it from the rooftops. I just kind of went along being who I was. And if I felt comfortable telling the person I'd tell them. If not, I wouldn't tell them. So I'm not shouting on the rooftop saying Yay, I'm gay. I think I've seen it in too many a musical. Have you came out of the closet? I suppose. Yeah. [00:02:00] I I Well, one of the first person I came out to was one of my, um, elders in a way. And we were just walking by a little cafe bistro, and she pulled me in and bought a bought a bottle of champagne and invited over all my other, you know, friends and everything. And we just sort of sat watching the sunset. Nice experience. Sort of verbally set, but I think to everyone who knew me, it was never really a secret. So, um, people always assumed [00:02:30] that you were gay. In a way. Well, I've always been this well, European or gay, The special child. Uh, I suppose you could say that. I think special is probably a little different. I mean, I don't feel any special than anyone else. I just think that I have more ability to express my thoughts and feelings to another person. How do they react? When you told the people that you were gay? Well, some people acted [00:03:00] with sort of great joy, sort of the verbalization realisation of something that you know, meant a bit about who I am and what it is. It is to be me. But at the same time, there were other people who sort of felt intimidated by the sort of power that one has to sort of break away from something. They've known their whole life as sort of being sort of small ost organisation in that kind of sense. But overall, I think it's been a really positive [00:03:30] experience. I didn't imagine that I could really be happier. How did you feel? Um, from their reactions. Hm? shocked and disappointed, shocked at all the good ones, for I didn't really see it that way until they set up and a little disappointed at the people who sort of didn't show such enthusiasm. For I imagine that saying something like you're gay or you're homosexual or you like guys or even you have a boyfriend. Shouldn't really, [00:04:00] you know, be something so definite that it means you can or can't socialise with them. Um, how do you, um, do you actually present yourself in a way that shows that you're gay? I don't understand the question Like, um, do you like to try? Make yourself stand out and as a as your sexuality, I don't intentionally, though I've been told that I can come across as quite [00:04:30] camp to some people. And some people think I'm quite masculine, so I'm not quite sure if I do it subconsciously or if it's just being me. So it has different reactions to different people. I think it's all sort of the eye of the beholder. OK, um, now we're going to go on to more personal questions. This is where I actually need the bell. Um, have you been in a relationship before. Mm. [00:05:00] Yes. Yes. How did you, um how did you meet other guys? Oh, I don't really know. I just sort of meet people standing in queues or just through friends. People just talk to me all the time. It's quite odd. That's certainly a first. Hey, I'm gay in a in a queue. It never starts off like that. No, no, no, not like that. But, um, that's something I didn't expect. Well, I'm [00:05:30] normally quite open to, you know, people. I mean it just because, you know, they're next to me in a queue or whatever. Just there doesn't sort of difference that Differentiate us. We're both human beings, and I'm sure we both have a lot of life experience in interests, you know, Um, did you have any support when you're coming out? Hm? I had lots. I know lots of people would have been supportive, but I sort of took a lot of pride in [00:06:00] just being able to sort of show that I'm a strong enough person that I never really needed huge amounts of support. It just sort of came as essentially. It just kind of boils down to people to people. And, you know whether they hold titles like parents, grandparents, doctors, psychologists, principals, you know, they're just people. And no matter what age you are, you're a person, too. And you shouldn't be treated any neg more negatively or positively due to that fact. [00:06:30] And because of that, when people have been negative, I never really seen it as too much of, you know, something abhorrent. Yeah. Hasn't you been out, um, affected your relationships, your past relationships in any way? Mhm. I don't really think so. I mean, my all my friends still treat me the same. The only difference is, is I can I feel more able to make funny jokes like I can't even drive straight? [00:07:00] How about, um, intimate relationships? Hm? I've always felt more nervous of introducing them to my life than mine to theirs. So I think that if you do have negative relationships with family, that's always a burden that you're going that if you are with someone that that's going to be put on them. And I think to a certain extent, that probably has inhibited [00:07:30] my relationships in some way. But at the same time, I'm very happy with all the relationships that I have have have had. How does your parents react to Um, when you came out? Oh, my father was trying to find the most politically correct statement to sort of say, That's fine. It's great without seeing too happy or [00:08:00] too shocked at the same time, which is beautifully awkward and knowing him like I do. I just kind of felt that in his way, that was his statement of approval, that he's happy for me with some of my other family members. It's been a little bit more strenuous, but on the bright side, they still sort of really care for who I am. And I think it's something nice to have, even if it isn't essential. [00:08:30] So do you take part in much, um, gay community activities? I suppose I do. I do some part time volunteer work in the area, and I have gay friends who sort of go to events like the big gay out coming up this weekend. But I don't really see it as going out to a sort of scene area. I just see it as a bunch of sort of friends. [00:09:00] In a way. I mean, we only we only really share one thing in common. When you get to know them, you sort of meet friends you share more or less with. OK, here's a really personal question that I always get bowed for. Um, are you a virgin? I can see why many people would consider that a personal question. Well, I'm not religious, and I don't consider myself a virgin. OK, [00:09:30] Yes. No bells. Have you gotten any abuse? Um, because of your sexuality or your gender identity, Ginger? Well, I suppose. But I find it a little difficult sometimes to see it as abuse. I think we all do. If it's a person close to us, we sort of associate them as a friend or guardian or something. And we sort of [00:10:00] because they are that to us, we sort of give them special rights. But when you sort of have relationships with people like I do where you are a person, if you're a bad person, I'm going to let you know that you sort of things people can get away with around you, sort of become what you allow them to do yourself. And if it's just a crazy person on the street. I don't really consider that abuse much for as much as a kind of cry for attention, For it so outrageous to, you know, sort of verbally say [00:10:30] something to anyone just because of you know, how they dress or what Even they associate with, um, Why do you think you personally think, Why do you think that, um, people abuse or gay bash or anything like that? I think part of it's probably the fact that they're not particularly altruistic individuals or they don't necessarily think for themselves, and they've sort of been raised in that kind of culture. In a way, it's truly tragic that we sort of still have that kind [00:11:00] of mentality with so many individuals. I think that a parent who sort of raises their child and instils that in them is truly wicked. And by the time you're 30 really, the issues of being raised shouldn't really be that much of an issue for you anymore. Can you tell me a bit more about yourself? What do you want to know? Anything This gives you like an insight of who you are kind of thing as a person, a bit old fashioned um, [00:11:30] you say that in an English accent. I didn't think I could pull up any accent if I tried. Um, your interests, What do you do for work? Do you study et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I studied last year and started working this year. I sort of feel as though when you're working to something and working towards your own goals, there's something really deeply satisfying about sort of reaching a goal you set for yourself, and I always set [00:12:00] them to far beyond what I think I can achieve. So I'm always, never endlessly surprising myself or ending up in some place completely unrelated to where I'm meant to be in the first place. It's quite fantastic, really. How about your interest? Um, I really like the arts, you know, cooking and music and stuff. But I don't particularly seek them out so much as just find them. Well, I'd like to thank you for having this interview with me. Is there any other comments that you would [00:12:30] like to make? I think I'd just like to say that anyone who happens to feel sort of pressured or, you know, under any sort of strain that you know, in almost any circumstance, depending on your age, you can get some type of assistance with whatever negativity you were dealing with. And no one, no parent, no one at all has any right to abuse you whatsoever. And that goes beyond physical violence but to [00:13:00] emotional as well. So being, you know, slagged in the street or being having things thrown at you or feeling unsafe or uncertain in your environment is not OK. And no matter what age, if you are in some type of abuse, there is some assistance for you, and I hope and don't worry, it does get better. I also just sort of think it's quite valuable to say that if a person does feel some sort of negativity towards [00:13:30] what they've been born as due to anything, I mean, other than the fact that it's unjust and hopefully will be altered with time is that when it comes to sort of, if you happen to like something, but you don't want to get involved with it because it's I'm not sure because you feel it's strange or stereotypical or associate. You is part of what you would associate with or even if you're not homosexual and you want to do something, but you don't want to do [00:14:00] it for it seems like then people would assume that other than the question that I'd ask, why would that matter? I find that ever since I have come out in one sense, I felt a lot more comfortable doing a lot of different things, like musicals, you know, and stuff like that. Just which I've been nervous of before because of the view people have of people doing that. And [00:14:30] just because you're, um, different to other people doesn't mean that you're promiscuous in any way or acting. It just means that, you know, you're more active. Hm. Thank you for the interview. You're welcome.

IRN: 2065
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_scott_2.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003919
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089213
TITLE: Scott (2) - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Auckland; China; Q12 (series); Rainbow Youth; coming out; family; gay; homophobia; relationships; support; youth
DATE: 10 February 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Scott talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: We here with Scott? Um hi. Um, could you tell us a little bit about yourself? Because I'm Mandarin speaker. So I do want to help. Like Asian people who I mean out there being gay. Being coming out is fine. I mean, even you Asian. You have Asian family. OK, Um um [00:00:30] um um [00:01:00] be your, um [00:01:30] So, um, me being gay is I mean, you still can have your own Children. I mean, I mean, [00:02:00] biological Children, so OK to adopt. Um, OK, I have no idea what you just, uh, just like my my family's reaction, and being gay is fine. The kind of can also, um, have you done first? The first one. how old are you? Uh um I'm [00:02:30] 20. What I should say, Um what gender identity. Um what what gender do you identify with I male. Um, what's your sexuality or homosexual? Uh, some. Yeah. When did you realise that you were OK? Um um I when I was like, um and 13. Technically, [00:03:00] like when I was a kid. Like I didn't know the concept of being gay, so I didn't know they were gay after when I was 12. 13 people like, mentioned that they work and I feel like that's me. [00:03:30] OK, how did you feel when you realised, um at first I didn't. I mean, I feel just not really a shock, because this that's the fact. And at first I was like, I was [00:04:00] I was a kid, so I didn't have I didn't know the social pressures. And so, uh, so that's a fact. That's a fact. So I don't feel like it's sad or good or something. I feel like, OK, I'm going to girls. But it's kind of help my parents don't have to worry about. Like I can get, like, teenage pregnancy. So, um, why wouldn't he, um Did you feel that you had to keep it a secret [00:04:30] at first? Yeah, I thought I mean, like, at first, Like I thought, like, I don't want to talk about like, um gay about with my parents. And first time my parents like Asian [00:05:00] parents. They don't talk. Um, well, the parents they are liberal. They talked about, I mean sex when I was a kid. I mean, they kind of want to be liberal to teach me about sex or every everything that's still like. It's kind of awkward to to tell them. Um, I'm gay, and I love gay sex. [00:05:30] Anyway, um, at first, like, I think parents, they want to help you. They always have one. Doesn't matter. You're gay or not. They even sexual problem, like, sexually, like those kind of problem. Like they still want to help you. [00:06:00] So the the thing is, my parents, um, eventually, I think telling parents you're gay is is the best way to go because they could be very not supportive. But at least they they love you as who you are. So you should embrace that. I should feel I should know that. I mean, don't get feel scared. I mean, [00:06:30] I mean, so, I mean, maybe they could be not supportive. Um, but they still can educate them. Like being gay is as natural as is. It cannot change it, so yeah, it's not a choice. Um, so you've come down as a closet? Oh, yes. Sure. Who have you came out of the closet too? Um, on, um, [00:07:00] on everyone I know. So ba basically family friends and I mean student other classmates, Um, from uni from high school. Yeah, um how did they react [00:07:30] at first? Like they thought. I mean, of course, Like to my parents family, They like It was it was a shock, like the shocking news, like, But they thought my cousin like, was gay, but he was He was just metrosexual. Yeah. Um, so, like, um, my family, I mean, it took a while to explain the concept of gay and this natural. This is, um it's not a disease. It [00:08:00] is meant to be. And they actually they took me to the doctor. I mean, and to check that, but but the doctor, Because my my parents, my family, they will live in. I mean, in China. So, uh, when the Chinese, um, doctor, like act actually surprising. They say it's normal. Surprising. I mean, they are so professional. I mean, even I mean, Asian doctors. I mean, they say being gay is normal. It's it's it's not disease. It should be supportive to my parents that a family that that's what they said to my family, that's that's really [00:08:30] a good I mean, it was good news, and that means, like, I mean, I think could be fine. I mean, very good fine in the future right now in Asia, so OK, [00:09:00] Um, [00:09:30] so, um [00:10:00] um, so my promise my parents will have I will have kids and do want kids in the future, right? So it's not a problem there, so yeah, So I think a problem like gay being gay, like in Asia, especially in China, Taiwan. And it could be a little bit like, easier than like Like I mean, the other countries are New Zealand, Maybe not New Zealand, but [00:10:30] like European culture, like Christian Christian culture, because we the Asian, they don't have the concept of being gay is a sin. So and the thing is, as long as you have a kid, I mean, it doesn't matter who you are. You have a kid in the future. So I mean, we have the technology, so it's not really a huge problem. So that's what I think. That's what a lot of gay and they think that's what that's what a lot of what they are thinking. But they were They are afraid of the social like pressure, so [00:11:00] they didn't come out. But I think coming out is way better, even even in your own country. homeland. Yeah. OK, um, what was the support? Did you get Oh, sorry. Did you get Did you have any? What's wrong with me today? Luckily, I'm good at editing. Um um, OK, we'll sign the interview right now. Um, did you get any support when you were coming out or when you were realising, um what [00:11:30] I mean, you as an Ackland like, um, a New Zealand like organisation that helped, like gay people coming out and help them. I mean, gay people generally, so, um, I generally I got support from you. Um, you Thank you. [00:12:00] Um [00:12:30] I mean, the you did help Me too. I have. I mean, to build my confidence to come out. So you definitely is the biggest support like to me. And you can the whole, um you mean I mean, no, she will tell you [00:13:00] now. Feel like there are other guys in the world, Not just me. Yeah. Um have you been in a relationship before? No. No. Ok, Has you been out affected? The reason why you haven't been in a relationship, um affect it? I mean, I mean, coming out. [00:13:30] Nothing. Really? Yeah. Nothing. It's like mayo. Uh, ok, um how do you meet other people? Um, meet other people. Uh, I I meet, um I mean, I meet people like through member youth and other gay social groups, not family bar, family. I mean, family, family bar is a good way. I mean, sometimes, uh, like gay community is generally they help. I mean, they [00:14:00] have all all kinds, like organisation and to help you to come out and meet other people like normal person, like making friends. So, um [00:14:30] um hi, that those organisations that can help people to make some gay friends like, normal [00:15:00] way. So it's really a good way to to help gay people. I mean, gay social groups. Ok, um, are you a virgin? No. Um, OK. Have you experienced any abuse or abusive behaviour because of your sexuality or gender identity and not too much like just I mean in my life in school, like or somewhere it's not too much. Just maybe, maybe in my life, [00:15:30] kind of really just I mean, I don't know, but not too much, really. I mean, it's the school pretty. I mean good. The people I've met, they're really nice. Maybe, but not too much really? Um [00:16:00] um [00:16:30] mean, I'm still the same person. I mean, before coming out. I mean, like, I mean, even same same person, so it doesn't I mean, coming out doesn't affect you too much, because in my school, like my like, my family, they are being supportive. So I don't get too much like, um, abuse from, um, from homophobic people. Um, [00:17:00] so but I do. I did. I mean met some people, like people from the street, or they call us fag or something. It's I mean, that's another effort that you shouldn't say, but but the thing is, I mean, you have to I mean, firstly, if they are not educated, they're just being rude. I mean, what you can do is ignore them, because if they because being you are educated you you, you have I mean, you don't want to get [00:17:30] I mean, get into get into a fight. I mean, a fight and to to be I mean to to to to protect them. I mean, the homosexuality, because, I mean, they they don't They are the educators. So why you have to make fights, I mean to to, like, do the same thing to do the I mean group thing to them as well. Ok, um, but if they do something further, like just they, they they gonna fight the puncture or do something further. I. [00:18:00] I saw that, um, if they punch you, all you do is fight back like a normal person. Because the law can protect protect us as well. So, um so, um, [00:18:30] take the [00:19:00] I mean, so like, yeah, So, um, they feel they should fight, fight back if they do do something serious. So you don't have I mean I mean, yeah. OK, um, do you have any more comments or would you like me? Would you like to ask me? [00:19:30] Would you like me to ask you a question? Thank you for the interview. Thank you. See you.

IRN: 471
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_scott_1.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003918
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089212
TITLE: Scott (1) - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Auckland; China; Q12 (series); Rainbow Youth; coming out; family; gay; homophobia; relationships; support; youth
DATE: 10 February 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Scott talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm here with Scotch. Hello, Scott. Hi. Hi. How are you today? I'm good. Just for ok. Um, could you tell us a bit about yourself? Um, I'm Scott. Um, obviously, I'm gay, so I'm studying, like, pop music at uni. I'm a third year student. So, um, as a gay person, I I'm right now, I'm the only gay in the, uh, in the whole major. So surprisingly it I mean, my tutors and my classmates, they're really [00:00:30] supportive about, Like who I am. And my music, of course. I I in my music, I do show some, like, gay sides of me, but they they they really they really like being being supportive, supportive about my music and everything. So, yeah, I'm pretty kind of living a very good and and positive gay life, you know? Yeah. Ok. How old are you? I'm 20. I'm getting 21. Yeah? What gender [00:01:00] do you identify with or what culture do you identify with male and, um, culture. I mean, they mixed, like between a Asian and and Kiwi culture. And, um, and gay culture. Yeah. So, yeah, What is your sexuality? I'm homosexual. When did you realise that you were gay. Uh, when I was, um well, I didn't know the words gay when [00:01:30] I was a kid, but I'm pretty sure I was into Male like when I was seven or about seven. But later on, when I was 12 13, I realised I am gay. So I didn't because my family was, I mean, was Asian family. So they didn't have the concept of being gay as a sin. So I didn't notice being homosexual could be, like, a very shame. Shameful thing to do because my parents didn't notice I was gay. And no one [00:02:00] mentioned this concept. So I didn't really have too too much things. Um, I mean, too many things to just like struggle. So, yeah, when I was 12. 13, I Yeah. How did you realise? I realised, um, that that's who I am if I have been to that kind. Thanks. Yeah, you have to. I mean, accept accept you because, I mean, the the universe made you as I mean anything. I mean, universe Bond wants So [00:02:30] the only the only thing you can do just be who you are. Um, that's how and I realised that I since I was a kid, so I'm just keep keep doing what I'm doing. Yeah, OK, um, how did you feel when you realised that you were OK? Um OK. And, um not I mean nothing, really. Just like because to to my family and I was born in China, the environment is could be like anti [00:03:00] gay, but not super like obvious. Because I was in school, in high school or in primary school anywhere. Like I didn't see too much like things about anti gay bully. And even though I came here, it's like in high school I I came out just, um not too much gay. I mean gay. I've met because in, um maybe, uh, maybe I look different or somewhere somewhat. Um, but I do. But I do notice the anti anti gay [00:03:30] culture, like exists, so Yeah, So I realised I do realise, like, it could be tough thing to to come out to my parents family because I have, um, um, an Asian family. So it could be like con conservative conservative, both and in the school. I, uh maybe I could I could feel like my school could be like, a little bit up tied about who I am. But after after a while, I, I realised this. [00:04:00] I mean, if you don't like yourself, if you don't want to be who you are and they don't like you either. So I mean so, uh, after I came, I came out in school with family and everywhere. I actually I feel in my career and my life, I do feel better. The change really just, um my life. I can I can say like coming out changed changed my life. And it's still changing, though. Yeah. [00:04:30] When you first realised that you were gay, did you feel that you had to keep it secret? Shit. Any point? Yes. Um, at first I was a kid. I mean, of course, I. I kept the kid as a secret secret because, um I mean, um I don't want my parents to to know, um, a like a like boys in sexual. I mean I mean, it's pretty embarrassed, like, even even I'm straight. I don't want to talk about [00:05:00] with my parents, uh, in my but after when I after I went I've been to you, like in GQ group, as as for as a group for gay kids like So I went there, like when I was 16. 17, I and I realised being gay. I mean, they have so many gays out there, and they are. I mean, they are. They are pretty. I mean, themselves. And they love to be who they are, even at school. [00:05:30] I mean, they, um so after a while, I realised it's not. It's not a big matter to come. I mean, to come out. I mean, it could be, but for me, it's like, Yeah, I mean, my friends, they already came out. So why, Why Why? Why shouldn't I? Uh So I came out in the school, and when I was 17 or 18, I, um So So, um, so at first I kept a secret because I don't want to talk about sex, um, [00:06:00] with anyone. But after that, I feel like it is healthy to explore uh, who you are. And, uh, if you if you don't like to talk about sex with parents, just talk about I being gay. That's it for me. Did you like or ever talk to them about you being in a relationship or, um, like other boys? Yeah, um I don't have a relationship, like, longer relationship or serious [00:06:30] relationship, but the thing is, after after coming out, um, my mom is kind of like a fat cat. Could be, um she she like, she asked me about my boyfriends and stuff. I. I kind of embarrassed about tell telling her because I didn't have that kind of connection with her about I mean, my private life. I mean, but yeah. Hm. So I think so. What's the question again? Um, [00:07:00] have you did you talk to your parents about you being in relationships? Yeah, Um, not too much, because, um, kind of my private life I. I mean, I do want my mom to parents to know about that, but I feel like, and this is important because they they don't live here. So I pretty much live by myself here. I with my relatives. So So you're in the, um So you're obviously out of the closet, right? Yeah. [00:07:30] Really. I mean, my family, they all my friends, they all know that. So is that to everyone that you're out of the closet? Yes. I'm pretty sure that Yeah. How did you tell them? Um, my parents is the hardest part. When I was 18, I which is, which was two years ago. Um, I was in, uh, I came to China and I told them gay, But before that, I had, like, II I kind of told them that I joined some, like like youth and group, like, [00:08:00] kind of kind of kind of in a positive way, like they help people. Um, I mean, helping people is, um, helping gay. And my parents, my parents couldn't know, can notice that, like, the side of me, like I could be gay. But, I mean, if you're not gay, but you help gays, but it's not true, but my parents can notice that. So that's why I came to, um I went to China and my family like they I told my family that I was gay. And then at first, of course, they were like they were shocked [00:08:30] and they kind of feel they want they want to, you know, my parents. I mean, they wanted to keep, like, keep a secret secret. And But later on, my mom put black so she like, she told she told everyone in my family. So after all, and they all know kind of cry, Have a have a drama. But after that, I feel like I feel like it could be easy to deal with, because my family, they are they are, well, not being, um I mean, they're not [00:09:00] Christian, so they don't have the concept of like being gay is a I just feel like being gay being gay. Um, like, you cannot give me my give me grandchildren. But the thing is, I mean, we have a surgeon and those kind of technology that I I can promise and and do want kids in the future. So that's why they feel Oh, OK, it's OK. I mean, it's not it's not a big deal after, after all made me feel like, OK, um, I accept you because you live in living [00:09:30] like living in New Zealand, which is a country pretty open minded. You're pretty open minded to, um to I mean to gay people and they feel like, OK, I will support you as who you are because I mean you you're still my kid. I mean, if you if whatever, you I mean you are, I mean, whatever you wanna be or whatever you you can be will always support you. So [00:10:00] that's what family. My family. So but I in school, like when I was 17. I came out of school earlier, then came out, came out to my parents. So I I was out in school in college, Um, in field. So it was pretty good school. I mean, I came out in like, um I mean, in school ball. So kind of like I was I was I was dancing with my, uh, my and they all I'm gay, and [00:10:30] I that's why I want the best dancer. But I know people like people noticed III I was gay, and, uh, they can They didn't I mean, they didn't say any any any, any bad thing. And And because and I didn't receive any bad reaction from my friends Oh, yes, there's a girl she like. She thought I was straight, and she kind of had a crush on me. But after after that, Now she's my good friend. Yeah, it it is kind of Yeah, [00:11:00] that high school. And I went because in long field, uh, we had, um, kind of gay co co counsellor. Um, so that's why I went, Uh, I went to there, and the and the teacher can help me to, To to get through with this. And, um, I'm pretty sure, um, the school has had I mean, they they are they're, like, positive, and they are supportive. Um, and, um, my friends, they are pretty supportive, [00:11:30] and and also, I pretty I don't really care about the negative side of that. So that's why I didn't get gay bullet in my life. Yeah. So, um, how did you feel about the reactions and you coming out of the closet? A reaction of me, Um, of the people's reaction when you came out of the closet at first, like and coming out. I mean, to me, it has, like, two stages or [00:12:00] even more. It's like at first, like you were kind of scared of, like, people know you're gay, so you can try to hide them. It's like, uh so like, if unless they ask you, you have to say I mean, you're gay. So at first I was in school, I kind of I kind of told my be like best friends. And, um, I was I was gay and they they they They were fine with that. So? So after a while, I feel it's it's comfortable, comfortable to tell others. And, [00:12:30] uh so second stage is you You embrace who you are. You're so like excited about being who you are. Can I can I tell, can I? I told everyone gay. It's like, Hi, I'm Scott. I'm gay. That's how I Oh, well, li literally at uni at first year, like that's how I mean, meet people and get the I mean the I mean, they they kind of cracked up like you, but they it's a good way to make friends. Oh, it's true. [00:13:00] Um, I haven't heard that before. Oh, it it's It's kind of true, because I kind of feel excited about her being her. I can't wait to tell people. Um Well, I'm a musician, so I don't really mind to mind bully, but at the first stage is I kind of don't want to be this the guy who say those things, it's gonna feel OK, I'm gay. But I don't have to be so so out there because, um, I'm gay, so I'm not I'm being [00:13:30] gay. Doesn't mean you are. You're I mean, you're so you are more special than anyone else. You're still the like, a normal person. Like like everyone else because you're gay. Maybe Maybe you'll feel like I mean, you're still, like, normal, normal person. So that's why I feel like maybe I shouldn't be so, like, so, like, throw like gay to everyone's face. So if you if you think I'm gay, I'm gay I. I do have to tell I'm gay, but I still still like, hang [00:14:00] out with my friends like, normal person normal friend. So that's the like, kind of like post modernism. Um, yeah, being gay is like normal life. You don't have to hide it. Don't have to throw things to them. Yeah, um, what was your main support when you came out or when you realised? Definitely. Is RR youth? Because, like, um, because you want to get I mean, in high school, you want to fit in, But, [00:14:30] uh, so that's why youth and gave me the, like, the support and to to come out. Um and then I can I can. I mean, I met some friends there, and they they like they like they were like, my age like Like like I was in. So, um, so they were being supportive. And, uh, I mean, the facilitators there, they were being, like, supportive. So that's why. And school there as well. So my friends, So, [00:15:00] yeah, I think Rambo youth like, gave me the concept of being gay. It's fine. Coming out is better. So actually, I Yeah, it's you. Definitely. Yeah. Um, So now for the more personal questions Have you been in a relationship before? Um, no, I mean tech. Technically, um, I mean, you feel, uh I didn't feel that was a relationship, so I didn't I didn't count that. [00:15:30] Has, um you coming out affected your relationship at all. Oh, I came out and then Oh, no, uh, not too much, though, because by the way, II I mean, um, I hang out with my friends with benefits. Like the way I mean, we we I mean, when I was 18, I I realised one time, uh, we kissed and at the at the bus stop working like in a and holding [00:16:00] hands together and like on the street, I didn't kind of really brave thing to do. II I felt and also but But it's a really good thing to do because you feel like that's who I am. I mean, I'm kiss. I'm just kissing like a normal person. I mean, like everyone else, like straight people. So I mean, what I did was I thought it was fine. So So But it was kind of really I feel excited that, [00:16:30] I mean, I did that because it's such a huge step to do. Like to do that like kissing the public and to handing hand. I mean, two holding hands with someone else to be obvious, obviously, gay to strangers. It's a really big step for anyone, though. Yeah. So, um, how do you meet other people? Meet? Oh, yeah. Like meeting someone. Oh, yeah. They, um Auckland has so many. I mean, [00:17:00] not so many, but, um, a few, Like a gay like social group like groups like like uniq And, like, um, youth, Like have an ID group. And, um, and general Career GQ group for, like, kids under 18. So and there are so many groups, like there in, like, North Shore, a UT. Um So those groups like, kind of give you like this? Um, this environment to [00:17:30] meet other people, to meet other gays and in like, not like that is a friend not like in family, but I can meet people like that are not not that not like friends. They talk about things. So those gay social group that actually help me to To like to talk to other gay people like normal persons. OK, yeah. Yeah. Are you a virgin? Oh, no, I definitely [00:18:00] I wish I kidding. Yeah, Yeah. Um, I the last the last day when I was well, I feel it's supposed to be, like, 16, but kind of I met some, like, kind of that people. Or so last year when I was, um 10, 11, 12 I So Yeah. So it's supposed to be 6. 16? Yeah. OK, um, [00:18:30] have you had any experiences? Have you experienced any abuse or abusive behaviour because of your sexual sexuality or your gender identity? Oh, that's it, Um, I. I met some, like people like those, Like say, um or like, Homo or something to me and, uh, not too many, but I What? I what I what I What I did is just [00:19:00] just I mean, I mean, just I mean, I get you. I mean, I mean one way to ignore them. No idea, because they I mean, they like one time. I mean, on the screen street, a hobo called us. And, like, I mean, I just say, like, I didn't say anything, because I mean I mean, he is the one who who thinks I mean vocal vocally abuses abusing anyone else [00:19:30] is OK, but to me, it's It's I mean, it's not educated. It's not profession, I mean, not professional. It's it's really a professional. Still a professional. You mean you still don't do that? I mean, you have to respect people who give you money. That's why I didn't get this guy money, those kind of things. But usually if someone, like, do anything further, [00:20:00] like, I mean, physically abuse anyone like being gay like to to me, Uh, what I'll do, I fight. I'll fight back. I mean, if you do, I mean, I'm gay. It doesn't mean I'm weak. I mean, you have to you have to get I mean, stand up for yourself and for your community, because you represent gay and lesbians. Other people out there. So if they do something further than that. Or just say vocally [00:20:30] abuse. And I'll do what I do. What I supposed to do. Do you have any other comments or other questions you want me to ask for you to answer? Um, and I totally enough, though. Yeah, OK. Thank you for the interview. Thank you. Thank you.

IRN: 470
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_lloyd.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003917
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089211
TITLE: Lloyd - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Kapiti Coast District; bullying; coming out; family; gay; homophobia
DATE: 10 February 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Lloyd talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm here with Lloyd. How are you today? I'm good. Thank you. That is good. So I can get a general idea about you. Can you tell me about yourself? Um, I'm currently studying at EIT in Hawke's Bay. I'm doing a double degree in computing and business. Uh, I'm just being a student at the moment, not doing much. I don't have a job. And what are your interests? Uh, computers, technology? Um, that's pretty [00:00:30] much it. Are you Are you born and raised in Hawkes Bay? No, thank God. I was born in the Wellington region and Yeah, OK, um how old? How old are you? 20. Turning 21 this year. What gender do you identify with male? What culture do you identify with your plan? And what is your sexuality? Gay. Ok, [00:01:00] when did you realise that you were gay? When I saw when I was 11 and I saw a topless boys. Uh, how do you, um how How did you realise already out there, haven't I? Yeah, but can you get a bit more in depth about it? Um well, I can't remember when exactly it was it was around that time, but I remember, like in the training room, So I quite like the bodies. I don't know. They just look right. Like proportioned, [00:01:30] properly proportioned. Did you feel a bit? Hey, wait a minute. This is not normal in a way or something like that. Um, no, I don't think I thought it was normal. I liked it. I liked the whole thing. I could never understand girls like their whole mental thing. And I could never understand having a relationship with one. Yeah. Did you feel that you had to keep your sexuality a secret? Yeah, [00:02:00] because because what happened at school? Like bullies and stuff. And I didn't know how my parents would react. And also, um, a few aunties and stuff always said negative things about it. Did people find out at school? No. Never. They always assumed, though. Ok, um, have you came out of the closet? Yes. How did you come out of the closet? [00:02:30] Um, I told my parents that I was having someone over and there was a boy, and then I was having a relationship with him. Yeah. How did they react? Well, I actually told my mom first, but, um, they were fine. about it. Mom bought some lo and condoms. Well, that's a safety way of doing it. Um, I? I told Mom first six. I didn't know how Dad was going to react. I thought Mum would react [00:03:00] better. My sister, she walked in. I remember, and she said she knew it all along. She walked in and say, Huh, I knew it was later on. Later on, she said that, but she did walk in at some point. I can't remember. I think it's after I told Mum Mum might have told my sister. Oh, do you think she, um, came in just so she can actually try to catch you out, [00:03:30] But, um, I don't know. Possibly. You know how sisters are? Yeah. Sisters are doing it for themselves. Um, how did you feel when, um, about the reactions or about you coming out? Um oh, OK. But they were I couldn't quite gauge how they felt, though, how they reacted or it was just like General. It's like they didn't really care at all. I [00:04:00] don't Yeah, that's what I felt. So you think that they don't care about your sexuality? They only care about yourself. Yeah, probably Yeah, I don't It's hard to tell. My parents think so. Um, did you have any support? Um, my boyfriend, um, sort of my parents and extended family. Some of them were like my aunt. One of my aunties was too supportive. In what way? Um, well, she [00:04:30] rented all these gay movies, right? What? What do they call them? No, um, kind of gay genre movie sort of thing. Yeah. Not like actual, like movies. Not like pornos or anything? No, not like actual problems. That was kind of a gay thing to it. Is it like, um, where the world is mine or seven? Going on to [00:05:00] 17 or something like that? Sort of. Yeah. Yeah. Um, did you have, like, were there any organisations that you wanted to go to down there, or are there actually any organisations? I don't know. Jason found one. My boyfriend, like in a back alley. Not really an organisation, something else. But I don't think there is anything there. I was meeting more of like youth groups or something like that, but there isn't really anything like Oh, there [00:05:30] are a few groups that they're so hard to find. Just not in the back alley. Well, I don't know where they are. They big flashing lights or something? Like a flag? Yeah, something like that. Hey, we're gay. We're queer, and we're always here. Yeah, the gay scene around there is nothing. Ok, um, before your current boyfriend, have you been in a relationship? [00:06:00] No, Um, has you coming out or, um, people's reactions affected your relationship with your boyfriend? Sort of. His parents originally were really negative about it and were trying to keep him away and right for saying that I was like a paedophile and other things and thought I was a horrible person. I don't think that anymore. And [00:06:30] people like I wasn't really our friend. Like, um, this guy was telling spreading rumours about Jason around the skull and and his parents were really negative and banned us from going over there to, um, your place or the school has to this guy's place. They got a trespass all both on me and my boyfriend. Um, I don't know if there's anything else. [00:07:00] Oh, people chucking eggs at Jason's car. Oh, that's not really to do with the race relationship. What sort of us, But it can put stress and stuff like that. Um, how do you meet other people Through Jason, who usually goes on, like, dating and friend sites and gay sites just to have the extra person? I don't know, Uh, [00:07:30] the casual threesome Or just find someone better than me. Probably as he shakes his head in the back room of the corner. Yes. OK, um, I probably think this is probably gonna be the obvious question to say no to, um, Are you a virgin? No. Um, have you experienced or [00:08:00] gotten any abuse of behaviour because of your sexuality or gender? Gender, gender identity? Um, yeah. I can say Jason's parents and sometimes my brother and sister, when they get angry, would always use it against me or say something horrible about it. Do you think they were actually really meaning it, or were they just joking around? Um, I think I don't know. Sometimes they say [00:08:30] in such a way that I think they really mean it. My brother and sister are horrible. I don't like them apart from your family members and Jason's family members. Do you have, um are there any other abuse that happen? Yeah, People calling stuff out. Um, these people at E RT were talking about me saying all this bad stuff and oh, yeah, there's been negative stuff and people chucking [00:09:00] eggs at Jason's car and, yeah, writing things in books about us. So with all these things, all these negative things happen. Do you actually do anything to actually keep your mind set so you don't get affected by or do you actually do get affected by this effort? Not really. No. But, um, if you did got affected, do you actually have [00:09:30] something to do that could keep get your mind out of it or something like that? Um, thinking about Jason. Our relationship? Yeah, uh, in our future, Um, I don't know what else but two. Yeah. Um what else is there? Do you like [00:10:00] to do a lot of travelling to Auckland with Jason, Don't you? Yes. That's your like your little escape from the scene down there. I can't really say scene, but call it a dump. Escape from the dump. Escape from the dump. It's like a little mission. Impossible. Sort of get away from there because there's nothing happens. There is. Is that because of the location or the people around there, A [00:10:30] bit of a a bit of B. The only thing you can say really is this, but yeah, um, I could say that anyone going to Hastings should avoid it. You the same. Yeah. Um, do you feel that these abuses all the abuse around there is actually deliberately aimed at you [00:11:00] or, um, yes or no? Do you think it could also be just, um, other people who are gay as well? I don't know. It's hard to know about how things I think there's probably a lot of closet gaze. And, yeah, there's not really any sort of community or scene down there. We're not really big at at all. [00:11:30] Do um, for the closet gaze. Do you think they should come out of the closet? Yeah. You have a big army, Big army against the streets. Do you have a message for those closet gates? Get out of the closet. I don't know that there's a lot of support nationally. I don't There's not a lot of support in Hastings. That's probably half the reason that everyone's really [00:12:00] close minded and backwards. Like when a strange move to Hastings, it was really like the whole sort of community was really fractured up in Hastings and I went coming from Wellington, where it's a lot more open. There's a lot more gay people and going to Hastings and where they're really close minded and unaccepted. Do you prefer Hastings to Wellington Wellington or a Auckland? Sure. Oh, [00:12:30] of course. You haven't actually lived in here in Auckland. But I haven't really lived in Wellington either. I just lived close to Wellington. Do you go to Wellington often? Not anymore. But like when I was living there, we'd go nearly every day. That confused me a bit. I live out of Wellington slightly like in like an hour away, but still near Wellington. I don't know. However you want to say it the [00:13:00] technical term word. Ok, um, is there a If you could average the gay community average the numbers of the gay community in Hastings? How big do you think it will be? Four people, The fewer people I know, like, I don't know, probably under 12 people that I know [00:13:30] not. Yeah, there. There's probably a lot of people, but there's no real community, so there's not a lot of communication between gay people only. Probably online and stuff. Do you think the gay community for Hastings is actually connected with other places, like maybe a master or I think a little bit. Yeah. Maybe even like New Plymouth. New Plymouth is, like only, like, an hour's drive or something like that. Right [00:14:00] around a little bit longer than that. But yeah, it's not that long. Yeah. Have you ever thought of making Probably creating your own group? No. I don't know. Not really my thing. Making a supportive group? I don't know. Sort of a loner person. Yeah, I just hang out with Jason. Ok, um, that's practically the end of the interview. Do you have any last [00:14:30] comments or would you like me to ask you a question that you would like to answer? How long is it so? Oh, it's over 40 minutes. Yeah. Um, no, I think that's all. OK, well, thank you for the interview. Thank you. And have a lovely day.

IRN: 469
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_kail.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003916
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089210
TITLE: Kail - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Auckland; Q12 (series); coming out; gay; homophobia; performance; relationships; religion; scene; sex; youth
DATE: 9 February 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Kail talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So it's the 19th of February 9th. I mean, God, I'm crazy. Um, it's ninth of February. Um, how old are you? 20. What gender or cultural do you identify with gay boy? Gay boy? What is your sexuality? Gay. So when did you realise you were gay? 17. [00:00:30] 16. 17? Um, yeah. How did you realise I was at church and all the guys were just really hot. How did you feel when you realised different? Different? Yeah. Did you feel that you had to keep it a secret? Have you, um, come out of the closet? Have I? Yeah. Yeah. [00:01:00] So, um, what's your story of coming out of the closet? Wow, It's stupid. Um, had been days that I had been planning going to my dad's house for the weekend. And before I went to my dad's. I wanted to tell my mum, and so my dad came to pick us up a day earlier. Then my dad said, Oh, no, no, no. My dad just came to pick us up, and, um oh, no, My dad was supposed to pick us up on the certain [00:01:30] day, and that's when I was going to tell my mum but I didn't tell my mum. And luckily, my dad didn't come. So the next day, my dad definitely had come and before we had left, um, I went to go hug my mom and was like, I'm gay, by the way. And then she was like, What? So I told her again and she just said Shot. And then later that day, I went to go put on a face while at my dad's. And then I came out of the room [00:02:00] and I was like, uh, Dad, I know that this may not be, um I know this may be obvious, but I'm gay, and then he's like, Are you gay? As in happy? Are you happy? And I was like, Yes, but no, I'm gay and I like boys And he's like, Are you sure? And I was like, Yes, And then I was like in an awkward silence and nothing was said. So the next day he brought it up again and [00:02:30] was like, Are you sure? And asked me about if I had been with a guy or a girl? And I said no and I understand where he came from. And he was like then how do you know? It's just a certain feeling that I guess homosexuals have. Um how old were you when you came out of the closet? 18. 18. Ok. 01. How many people are you coming out of the closet to right now? Everyone? Everyone. What was the initial reaction? Have you got, um have [00:03:00] you gotten from other people apart from your parents? It was obvious. I'm an obvious guy, the obvious guy. So when I came out, actually, they actually thought I had already been out. So I was offended by that. So, yeah, everyone knows. How did you feel about that? About about, um, being out and, um, people knowing relieved. [00:03:30] And how how did you feel about the reaction? I didn't really care. Apart from the you felt offended for them. Well, I don't actually care. Like I don't care about what anybody else has to say. It's more or less my family that I care about just because if there's so many, then who do I have? Really? But I don't really care what what others say about me because I know who I am. Did you have any support? Everybody supported [00:04:00] me. Yeah. Did you have any organisation that helped you or something like that? Like Rambo? Ouch. Line. You? No, no. I'd say maybe a cam that I went on PSSP. Um that kind of opened up a lot for me as well as going on a, um, an outbound course where I could kind of be myself. And that kind of helped me just to come out a little bit more as [00:04:30] well. Ok, now I'm gonna ask some more personal questions. Um, have you been in a relationship before? No, really, Actually, Yeah. Yeah, actually, no. Like, really? Yes, I know. I'm stunning. Well, I'm so shocked. Um [00:05:00] well, that just rules out the next question. Um, well, any relationship I know, um, has any of this, um is any reason why you haven't been with anybody? I'm kind of really picky. Um, he's gotta be, like, six toast. 63 dark hair, green eyes, chiselled face, great teeth. Really nice guy [00:05:30] who loves the family but, you know, can take in anybody, um, know some stuff. Definitely. See, this is just what I would say. I know that it's not gonna come true. We're looking more Prince Charming. exactly, but just somebody who's really nice, really, But no. Yeah, I tend to just see what I want and pull away, OK, This, um, interview saying to become like a little advertisement. Why is that? Oh, I like this guy. [00:06:00] Oh, not a yeah. Um Oh. Bless you. How do you meet other people? How do I meet other people? Yeah, like other people in the gay community or other people that you might date or something like that. Hey, no, no, no. Um, I think being a drag queen kind of helps with getting to know people [00:06:30] and because people come and see you. Rather you going to them? Hm? Um, did you ever go on to sites like NZD or Manhunt or grinder? Yes. But that's only because as soon as I started becoming a part of the gay scene, all my friends were a part of it, So I was like, Why not? You know, isn't this there was nothing about peer pressure or anything? I was just like, Why not? Are you a virgin? Yes. [00:07:00] Is there any reason why I kind of want my first time to be really special? I was the first guy. I just want my first to be with my first kind of like, It's like the old fashioned way. Like, would you want to be married first or No, I just want to have that real connection. Um, have you gotten or experienced any, um, abuse or abuse or abusive behaviour because of your [00:07:30] sexuality or gender identity? I guess that's an obvious question to say yes, because of society and blah, blah, blah, blah. But, um, I'm pretty resilient. So I dealt with that in my own way, kind of just fucked it off. But, um, like I said, I know who I am. I'm proud of who I am, and it's always the really ugly guys who have something to say. So I'm [00:08:00] just thinking, when they said that to me, I was really, really pretty. So they wanted me, and they want me to touch them to Can you give me examples of the abusive behaviour that's being treated against you? I hate that word. Um, nothing really physical. It was just small words. Yeah, something just quite a loud, mainly [00:08:30] stuff that happens on the street that, like when you walk past Yeah. Wow. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah, actually, yeah. Can you tell us more about yourself personally Specify. Well, you don't have to say your name or anything. Just like talking about who you are, your interests and stuff like that. What do you do for a living? Well, I reckon reads hell, Um, I'm a performer. I'm an inspiring, aspiring [00:09:00] muzo because I want to become a singer. Um, I'd like to help people as well. Kind of just give back. You know, uh, I just like to hang, really be in a hippy environment. Really, really love to help friends and their time needs kind of thing. You know, just it's just a thing that you obviously do, but, um, I think [00:09:30] it's a tad shallow, but I tend to, uh, careful. The harder press and more. Yeah, it's a way of life. I know. Um, do you have any other comments that you would like to make? Um, just be happy. Do you have any, um, questions you would like me to ask or anything like that? Answer [00:10:00] the questions. You answer. Do you want me to ask any other questions? Now I'm asking you to answer the questions you asked me. Do you want me to Do you want me to do? I'm just pain. Hey, let's, um, do me. No, no, I'm pretty good. But a good thing. Um yeah. I've seen you perform before, haven't I? At with me? Yes. Yes. What was it like working with him? Um, interesting. [00:10:30] That was good. It was good. Um, I was happy with the experience that I got from it. Uh, met plenty of people. Made some really, really good friends. Still talked to now as I and actually catching up with one tomorrow. Um, but, uh, pretty happy, Pretty happy with what happened. Is that, like, your main dream to be on a stage or, um, performing stuff like that? Pretty much. Yeah. Try that [00:11:00] scout, though. But, um, that could be a start, actually, that will be a start. So, sex. So, in your opinion, what do you think it's like to be on the gazing? What are some of your experiences? Well, at first, um, I was kind of overwhelmed, so I'd understand why straight people, especially [00:11:30] straight guys, would be afraid. I mean, I was afraid at first I was like, Oh, my God. I guess I was just more afraid because that's what I wanted. And I didn't want everybody to know. That's what I wanted anyways. So carry on from that. The scene seems to the scene seems to be just drama. But I guess that's just typical. Yeah, So you think it's, um Do you know, [00:12:00] what do you think causes these dramas? Well, I think a lot of gay guys are quite a I just really, really mean people. But some of them, you know, we all know those ones, those ones that make up lies, that think they better than everybody else. That tends to say one thing, but actually sees another or [00:12:30] lies to their friends or, you know, hooks up with another guy's friend or boyfriend or whatever. You know, Um, it's just really sad sometimes. But it's just what's the question? What is your experiences And, um, what do you What's your view on the gay scene? Well, from my experience, the gay scene hasn't really done anything to me yet, so I'm pretty happy with what's happening for me personally. I mean, I'm part of an amazing [00:13:00] group that's really established within the gay scene. Um, people know who I am? Uh, that's what it's confidential. Yes, cos then I just totally sound up myself. Um, again, this is a little interview to tell yourself. Exactly. Um, no. But my experience is really good on the scene so far. Made [00:13:30] really good friends. Um, made a lot of new friends come with some kind of interest, you know, Um, but right now, pretty good with this year, I think last year was one of the best years that I've had. And that's just because of the scene. Just what it has given me, really, Just more or less friends that I have gained from the scene. Really amazing people. Um, but I think this year is gonna be better. [00:14:00] No, I know this year is gonna be better. So, um, going back to what you say? Um, there's a lot of dramas happening around this gay scene. Do you? Do you think it would be possibly meaning that there's so much personalities out there that there's a lot of conflicts? I want to say a lot of personalities, I'd say the same personality, so they tend to kind of override each other by being a better personality. than [00:14:30] what they are. You get what I mean. Yeah. So they try to fight each other when they're the same. They're trying to be, um What is it called? The head wolf or something? Yeah. Yeah, pretty much. Um, they just don't seem to see that. [00:15:00] I guess. There's also stuff tinges as well. You know, that's probably one of the main reasons. Big reasons. Really? Gosh, everyone has issues, but homo tend to triple them or, like, you know, could triple them and make them more worse than they actually are. So that's just something they need to learn on. But, um yeah, I guess it's just more or less the same personality trying to be different. Does that make sense? [00:15:30] Yeah. It makes sense. Yeah. Um, thank you for coming along. Or even though? Yeah, but yeah. Thank you for having the interview with me. You're welcome. Do you have any other comments? No. No. OK, have a Have a good day. Yes. Have a great day. Thank you.

IRN: 468
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/q12_jason.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003915
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089209
TITLE: Jason - Q12
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Benji Watt
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Hawkes Bay; Q12 (series); bullying; coming out; education; family; gay; homophobia; relationships; school; youth
DATE: 10 February 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Napier, Napier, Hawkes Bay
CONTEXT: In this podcast Jason talks about being young and gay in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm here with Jason. Hello. Hey. Um, so I can get a bit of a description about you. Can you tell us about yourself? Um, I'm 18. I live in in Hawke's Bay, and I'm still going to school at the moment. OK, Um, OK, what is your interest? Uh, I like computers and cars. Mostly. What gender do you identify with Male? What [00:00:30] cultural do you identify with? What is your sexuality? Gay. When did you realise that you were OK? Um, probably when I was around 10. How did you realise I didn't have any interests in girls And my parents? Grandparents would always ask me why I didn't want a girlfriend or why I didn't have a girlfriend. And Yeah, the only answer I could give them was I didn't want one. How did you feel when you realised? [00:01:00] Um, I tried to deny it and tried to think around it. Try to realise how I could have a girlfriend, but Yeah, I just came to accept it. How long did it take for you to not deny it, um, to myself or to others? A bit of a a bit of B to myself, probably by 13 and to others. I still do for some people, but not to [00:01:30] close friends. OK, um, did you feel that you had to keep it a secret? Why is that? Um my parents would always comment about anything gay related something like on the news or on a TV show about how wrong it is, how sick it is. And yeah, so I knew that they wouldn't accept it. And same with most of my friends. And I'd also bully people they thought were gay. Um, is your parents religious or something? [00:02:00] No, they just don't. Yeah, they're more traditional in that sense. Ok, um, have you came out of the closet? Um, I have, but some people like younger people at school. I still try to keep it a secret from them because I don't Yeah, they don't need to know. Really? Ok, um how did you come out to come out to close it? Um well, my parents [00:02:30] suspected it because I was spending so much time with my boyfriend, Lloyd, But yeah, they really found out when they caught me and him in the bed together. What? Having sex with each other or no, Just sleeping just sleeping and underwear. Did you had a bit of a talk about it the day after or something? Um, that night, Yeah, they called his parents and got them to come pick him up and then had a talk to them, and they [00:03:00] lied about it, acting like they didn't know. Um, but yeah, I managed to get away with it, saying that it was a one off thing just because I didn't want them to know from the way they reacted. Ok, um, how about other people's reactions? Um, I lost basically all my friends over it. Is that because of the, um do you feel because that's the area you live in? That's the type of people that live there, [00:03:30] or, um, it is mainly the people that lived there, but yeah, they never were accepting of it. And I knew that they wouldn't be. How did you tell your friends? They mainly found out from my parents what your parents just told your friends or text them Or Facebook said us. Hey, my son's gay or something. They actually got my two best friends over to talk to them to ask them if they knew about it and told them everything. [00:04:00] And then that just spread from there. Did, um what did they, um, were you home at the time when your parents were doing it? I found out about a week later. OK, um, how did you feel about the, um, about you coming out? Um, I'm glad that I am out, so I don't have to hide it anymore. But I wish that the reactions were a bit more supportive. Um, one [00:04:30] of my main friends completely avoided me because of how his friends reacted to it, but he realised that it wasn't right. And we're still really close friends. Now, Was that for just that friend or more than one? Just that friend. The other one? Well, the other main friend doesn't talk to me anymore. Do you think your other friends will come around? No, not literally. Come around. Of course. Um Well, my best friend, [00:05:00] Hamish, which I've been friends with since I was five. He was the one person to react to it, and he spread it throughout the whole school. I'd get eggs thrown at my car and people coming after me calling me gay and just yeah, going on about it as they do just because he told a few people who told a few people and just got around the whole school. I get people that I don't even know coming into work, asking me if I'm [00:05:30] gay. Um, how does that affect your work, then? Um, my colleagues at work don't know about it, and they have actually asked me which they shouldn't, but they have. And I've just told them that I'm not gay because I don't want that to get in the way of work. How about showing your performance at work when someone comes in? Um, I've actually had a few people removed from the store in the past, [00:06:00] but there's this one younger girl who actually goes to my school. I found out who came in with a few friends, and they were yelling it out at the counter like saying that boy is gay and he has a boyfriend, and I've seen him kissing him at Kmart, which wasn't actually true. And yeah, so I had them removed from the store of all the places it has to be K mart. Yeah, just around the corner from where I work. Um [00:06:30] did you have? Did you have any support? Um, no, not really at all. I've actually. Well, I tried getting an independent youth allowance, um, so I could move out of home. But that got declined in the end because my parents lied about the situation, acting like they were supporting me and saying that there's no problems at home. Hm. Ok, um, have you ever wanted [00:07:00] to, um, try and look for support? In a way, I have tried, um, apart from going to, um, getting the Independence one, I spoke to my school counsellor because that was part of the independent youth allowance. And she recommended Rainbow Youth who I sent an email to her and never got a reply from. Um, But other than that, I've the main support I get is from my latest friends [00:07:30] who are all gay and can relate, including your boyfriend. Yeah, definitely. Ok, um, apart from your boyfriend that your relationship that you're in now, Have you been in a relationship before then? No, no. Has any of, um Has you, um, coming out affected your relationship? Um, it has my parents attempted to keep Lloyd away [00:08:00] from me, saying that he's a paedophile because at the time, I was 15 and he was 19. So the age difference looked quite bad, but yeah, accusing that he was a paedophile and that he's a creep and he's manipulated me into it, and it's all part of his little game. And so they stopped him from coming around completely and tried to stop me from going to his house. So I was lying about working late and lying about working on days that I had off and just doing anything I could [00:08:30] to spend time over there. Yeah, until his parents found out that we lied about my age initially, which made things harder. Yeah. Um how do you meet other people? Usually online? Um, yeah. I don't really know where else to start. There are a few gay people at my school, but I don't like their personalities. Do you like me them on, like grinder? [00:09:00] Something like that. ND manhunt on those lands. Yeah. Um, are you a virgin? No, Uh, have you gotten or Well, actually, this is obvious questions because you just practically said this before, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Have you gotten or experienced any abuse because of your or your gender identity? Yeah, quite a lot. Um, my parents [00:09:30] have told me about how it's disgusting and how they're so ashamed of it. And how, um, they'll do anything to change it and how they don't know where they went wrong. Like it's a problem. Like it's their fault that I'm gay and then at school constantly. I get people commenting about it and talking behind my back. And I get people avoiding me like I sit down in class and people move away from it just because I don't want to be seen with the gay boy as I'm known as [00:10:00] hm? Have you ever tried or thought about creating your own group? I've thought about it, but I don't personally know enough people in my area that would be willing to support it. I know my parents would be dead against it. How about trying something like combining areas of Hastings, Napier and New Plymouth Ma and Da Fielding? [00:10:30] It'd be a good idea, but I wouldn't really know where to start with it, OK? Because of the place and area. Do you feel that? Um, you want to move away from the area that you live in. Yeah, Um, the few times I've been to Wellington and Auckland, I've Yeah, the community is so much better and so much more accepting of gay people, so I would definitely like to move as soon as possible. Um, [00:11:00] is it just Do you think it's just the area that you live in, or do you think it's other small towns as well? Um, I know of a few smaller towns that do have quite a high population of gay people. So it might just be Hawke's bay. Or it might be that there are a lot more people in the closet. Hm Hm. Ok, um, what's comparing to Hastings? And what do you think Auckland's like overall? Yeah, Overall, [00:11:30] for the gay scene. Um, Well, for a start, there's gay bars which you wouldn't even hear of in Hawke's Bay. There was one in Napier once which closed down a few years ago. Um, but yeah, there's gay bars, and you see a lot more gay people on the street who are more open about their relationship. Like in Hastings. She wouldn't dare walk around, walk around holding hands with your boyfriend because you're bound to get abused in some way. Does it get violent [00:12:00] down there? If there's some sort of affection out in public with your boyfriend or if you're a gay couple? Yeah, I've tried with Lloyd. You try walking down the street holding hands, and people drive past and throw things out the window at you and shout fag it at you. And yeah, it's just not pleasant at all. Ok, um, so going back to talking about you, um, what do you want to do when you leave school? I'd like to go to a UT [00:12:30] and continue studying. What would you like to study? Um, I haven't really decided yet. Probably something computer related. That was always my career idea. But I'm quite lost for what it is at the moment. Ever thought about like doing something that would help the gay community, like maybe a youth worker or a social worker or something like that? Um, I don't know. I don't really plan to live my whole life in New Zealand, so [00:13:00] I don't really know how I could go with that. It might be a good idea, but yeah, well or something like that, you could actually adventure yourself to maybe Australia or something like that. Hm. That's an idea. Yeah, well, but then again, you can do that with computers as well. Yeah, I suppose so. Well, it depends on the computer, the computer degree and what you're studying. Yeah. Um, OK, that's almost at the end [00:13:30] of my interview. Do you have any last minute comments? Um, I think any parents wanting to know how to accept it, they need to understand that it's not their fault. It's not a problem. It's not a choice. It's something which the boy or girl is born with and something which they have to learn to accept. Um, my parents now allow Lloyd over, and yeah, he's allowed [00:14:00] to stay in a separate room, though. Um, yeah, but it's better than completely trying to stop contact, I guess. So. I think it's important that parents support their kids because if they don't support them, how will I think parents need to stand up for their kids against bullies or anyone that is offensive about it? Ok, um, last more question last question. And this is for about the parents. Do you believe [00:14:30] that parents only don't accept the fact that their Children are gay. Um, because they're not informed enough or do if you think they see their Children. As a little thing is is like a go a small version of themselves, and I want them to be a certain way. I think it's both. I think a lot of parents want an ideal kid that grows up, has grandchildren straight relationship [00:15:00] and yeah, then it just goes on from there, following their family name and everything. But I think a lot of parents don't understand what the kid has to go through to get to the stage of even being willing to come out to everyone. And they don't understand that. It's not something that you can decide on something you can you can just choose. OK, thank you for the interview. Thanks. Have a good night.

IRN: 479
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/dym_ruth_desouza.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003914
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089208
TITLE: Ruth DeSouza
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ruth DeSouza
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; People of Colour Decolonisation Hui; Ruth DeSouza; activism; feminism; health; mental health; research
DATE: 5 February 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Ponsonby Community Centre, 20 Ponsonby Terrace, Ponsonby, Auckland
CONTEXT: In this podcast Ruth gives a keynote presentation at the hui.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: What? What I'd like to do is I've got approximately an hour. I, I believe, Um, what I'd like to do is, um, talk to you a bit about my PhD research, which I completed last year. Um, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger or something. You know, Doctor, Doctor Ruth? Yeah, and, um yes. Always willing to give advice. Oh, II. I might have to be careful with what I say. Hey, [00:00:30] that record, Um and so what I'd like to do is sort of share with you how I came to do the research. Um, some of the framing around, um, the research and why I chose those ways of doing things. And then what I'd like to do is actually give you, um, the actual stuff that women have said. And the thing that nurses have said, and I just like to divide us into groups, get people talking and then bring you all together and then have a talk about [00:01:00] that. So I was thinking of using that hour in that way. Does that sound all right? And so, um, it's gonna sound a little bit teacher at the beginning. Um, but I'd really like it to be a conversation and from my own experience. Uh, it's kind of like if one person doesn't understand something, usually more than one don't. So if there's anything that doesn't make sense, I I'd be really happy for it to be, uh, a conversation rather than me talking about something that you don't know what I'm talking about. Does that make sense? So, um [00:01:30] yeah. So what I'd like to talk about is, um, my field is maternity, and, um, it's actually it's actually mental health. And it's maternity, and it's migration. So, um, one of the things that I decided to do for my PhD um I was working at, uh, National Women's Hospital, uh, in Auckland, and what I decided was I'd been working in mental health for about 13 years by that point, and I thought, I want to go and see some happy endings. I wanna go and [00:02:00] see, you know, be in a setting where I can make a difference to people. So I went to work on a post natal ward. Um, and one of the things that really shocked me was the ways in which routinized care, um, was actually quite harmful to women and their babies. And at the time, there were lots of women from, uh, Asia who were using services more and more, and I became quite concerned about the sort of taken for granted ways in which we delivered care that seemed to automatically, um, have a negative [00:02:30] impact on women. So what I'm very, very interested in is how institutions shape subjectivity. So I'm gonna talk about that some more. So just to give you an example, one of the things that we routinely did and and you will have some understanding of these things with your background and reproductive health was when women had a baby, we'd sort of go around and we'd say, Here's an ice pack. So it was a block of ice, um, wrapped in cloth. And we'd say to women Pop this on your perineum, dear, Does you ever know what a Perrine is? Yeah. [00:03:00] No. Yeah. So that that's the area between your clitoris and your bum. Thank you. Yeah, further round thunder. Ok. And for lots and for lots of, um, you know, female bodies. It was kind of Well, um, we we stay warm when we've had a baby. We don't want anything cold near us. Yeah, [00:03:30] so that's a tradition in many parts of the world. The other big thing was, um, in many of our cultures, when you have a baby, you're someone who's really special. You've been through heaps, and everyone is supposed to just love you, honour you and pamper you. Right? Uh, and in New Zealand, it's kind of like you've had your baby. Get on with it. Feed your baby, change your baby. We want you to become as independent as soon as possible. So, you know, I was seeing all the ways in which there are these culture clashes, and these culture [00:04:00] clashes were frustrating for my colleagues. And they're incredibly frustrating for women, you know? And every woman of colour that I passed by would look at me beseechingly, you know? So So it's kind of like, save me. You know, that this place is not treating me well. So this fantasy I had of maternity as this place where we could really honour women, uh, became completely trashed. So, um, what I decided to do was, um, talk to women about their experiences, and I decided to talk to health professionals about their experiences about [00:04:30] having a baby, uh, looking after women. Um, and so what I did was, um I've been teaching Plunket nurses who are child health nurses, um, about postnatal depression for about 18 years. So that's my field. Um, specifically. And, um, I arranged focus groups with health professionals, and I had focus groups with women from Iraq, Palestine, China, Korea, India, the UK, the US and South Africa. So, you know, quite a range of women, and a lot of [00:05:00] women also fundraise for this project. So it was a real labour of love, you know, lots of voluntary time. So these are the kinds of questions that I, um, wanted to ask in my research. Um, because you know what reproduction means is not just this individual moment. It's about what kind of society are we recreating? Yeah. What kind of hegemonic values and beliefs are we replicating? Um, And if your subjectivity, your personhood has been formed [00:05:30] in a different context, what does it mean to be inserted into the machinery? Sorry. What? What does it mean to be inserted? Yeah, into the machinery of of the system that that, um what I learned was very factory like so we were trying to produce a particular type of person, you know, and and, um, I see this in terms of my own [00:06:00] nursing education. So I did my I started my nursing education in 1984. Um 0, heck, I've given away my age and and you know, one of the things that my PhD supervisor, who's in Seattle said, You know, he's he's written about this. He said It doesn't matter what the materials are. They're forced into this curriculum machine, which is shaped by whiteness and colonisation that produces a universal nurse. So if you think about our academic organisations, we talk about the critique and conscience of society, [00:06:30] but they're converting various raw materials into some kind of standardised person. Yeah. Oh, stop it. I'm brushing, um, questions. Like we talk about bicultural. We talk about so but what does it mean when we, you know, nurses were the ones that said, cultural safety? That's when the end use of the Service service decides that the service has been appropriate. It's me [00:07:00] means what does it mean in the New Zealand context, really, with people of colour, women of colour who who aren't Maori. So these are the kinds of things that I was interested in and this liberal feminist idea of birth as transformational for women. Um, does it actually get realised for women of colour? So I was really interested in those kinds of questions. Is everyone still with me? Ok, um, any time I get boring, just do this. Yeah, um, so [00:07:30] upset. That was fast. OK, so So I told you I did these focus groups, and they were a starting point. But what I started becoming interested in is where did these ideas come from? So Michel Foucault, the French theorist, talks about the history of the present. How do we come to have these ideas? Because they're not new. They've all come from somewhere. And he talks about a genealogical method to look at how things [00:08:00] come into being. So I decided to look at that about maternity. Um, and I'm also interested in the idea of discourse, which I'm gonna tell you about, which is that actually, we don't have any individual ideas, OK, so I'm just thinking of those of you that are parents. I'm I'm not a parent. Um But I have lots of little people in my life, and they just repeat everything that's said in the environment, don't they? Would you agree with you, those of you that So I reckon, Even as adults, we do the same thing. We You know, when we're [00:08:30] saying something, we're reproducing something that we've, um, caught an and that we've heard around us, and we repeat it, and we don't always critique it. It becomes taken for granted. Um, but there are a whole lot of, um, ideas and concepts that are mobilised, you know, and Belinda, you talked about stereotypes yesterday. You know, there are things that we might not even be conscious of, but we draw them down, and they become part of us here, and they live in our bodies. Um, so I was interested in what kind of discourses are mobilised. Hey, and if anyone wants any of these notes, [00:09:00] I'm really happy to email them to you or anything like that. Um, what kind of discourses are mobilised? And so I want to take you through the idea of discourses and discourse analysis because it's something I've become really interested in as, uh where's our textual friend. So you know, you'll you'll find this interesting. You know, the the idea of text, and I'm gonna give you some text because I thought of you last night and text. So it's kind of about can we deconstruct the relationships, conditions and mechanisms [00:09:30] of power and identify how they emerge? So discourses make available particular ways of seeing the world particular stories about things. And I'm gonna give you an example in a minute. So don't get worried about that definition. So what I wanted to do was to say OK, what are the kinds of discourses about migrant mothers? Yeah, Where did those ideas come from? And what are the impacts of those ways of thinking? And are there some [00:10:00] other ways of thinking about them? Does that make sense? Yeah, maybe. OK, so what I wanna do is I wanna show you some examples of discourse and text by showing you some pictures. Now, these are pictures of, um, a very heterosexual generally, uh, event that's coming up next week. Valentine's Day. Ok, um and what I realised is that they might also to trigger people, so I just wanna apologise about that because, um they do have a particular version of [00:10:30] love or relationship that might be upsetting. So please look after yourself if if if something does come up, OK, so when you look at this, what does this say to you about a relationship between a man and a woman and Valentine's psycho Psycho? Power and control. Sorry. Ownership? Absolutely. OK, so I want you to just throw out your ideas. But But these were sort of, you know, these are real currents from the fifties. [00:11:00] OK, it's inevitable. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, No consent. What about this one? Um this is but this is I aim to please you my valentine. It's just completely tear. They found [00:11:30] babies. First word did you say face first? I think my ears are painted on. Yeah, yeah. Let's get a better face first. Could be. Could be [00:12:00] OK, I'll read this one for you In case you can't see it. You built a wall so fast and strong, but with my magic Ray, it won't last long. So you know, in Are you studying? Pardon? Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's a theme. Yeah, exactly. [00:12:30] OK, I'm out hunting for Valentine. Are you gay? Are you Are you game? Are you to be hunted by me? Yeah, I like that. You're an animal. You're cute. Thought that was probably one of the first Minister of that. Was not. [00:13:00] Yeah. So? So what you're starting to talk about are the kind of discourses. Yeah. So I'm just trying to give you a sense of what? What are the kinds of ways we frame relationships and heterosexual relationships in Valentine's card say, in the fifties. But, you know, these would have been sorry. Yeah, but but, you know, I'm just, you know, this is kind of a little bit extreme, but it's to try and get you thinking about the idea of discourse as sort of a way [00:13:30] of thinking that's circulating, and that's socially kind of constructive. Is that kind of coming through? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's about this the other night and they were talking about a similar kind of like on the bet There's a broom and a candle. I courting dance and the broom is saying [00:14:00] is the man and the candle is the woman and the broom saying, Oh, you want me? And then the he's like No, no, no. And then it's. And then eventually the broom gets off the candle and it kind of telling Children that no means yes. Yes. Yeah. So? So there's all these ways of thinking that, um, you know, you can deconstruct and start sort [00:14:30] of thinking about what were the dominant ideas of the time about how relationships work. So that's kind of the point. I'm I'm I'm trying to make here this one. I'm bound to be yours, if you will be mine. Yeah, OK. Yeah. What's a safe word? Yeah, you know. [00:15:00] OK. And and then, you know, yesterday you saw that one about the yellow peril. Here's another one. So what do you see When you see this? I'll I'll just read out to you in case you can't see it at the bottom. It says the Hindu spelled HINDOO peril. Small politicians open the door. And this guy is the imperial politician. White New Zealand policy. How how is the other Who's Indian in this case or South Asian? How are they framed in this picture? [00:15:30] They're a monster. They're much bigger, aren't they? Look how big their foot is in the door. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, it's scary. It's scary. scary white man saying that they're small, so sort of implying that it takes someone, you know, [00:16:00] big humans to be a open, and they're not willing to be, so they're kind of small. And it's true that a lot of the community came to very small. Maybe that show that this small number and that is all from that community. [00:16:30] But even though, yeah, he he is a small person, he doesn't and and yeah, yeah, yeah. And the other thing that I find is really interesting. You know, um, and the New Zealand first politician, who I challenged this morning was not very impressed with me at all, but, uh, but, um, the the other thing that I find interesting is the way in which those kind of metaphors [00:17:00] are evoked, you know, the yellow peril. Dangerous, infectious, contaminating, untreatable, you know, or continuous exactly all of those things. Now, now, I just want to sort of shift that idea of discourses. I'm just trying to take you a bit on a journey, right, um, to think about, um, alcohol and drug use. You know, one of one of my my first job was working in a methadone clinic, you know, and I'm very interested in the kind of different discourses around drugs and addiction. And so [00:17:30] I'm trying to just sort of give you a bit of a sense of what I'm talking about when I talk about discourse before we move into my material, OK? Is this helpful? Yeah. So a moral discourse about drug use is that, you know, if you use drugs, you're bad, you're evil. Um, you know, it's a moral weakness using drugs and the the kind of treatment or the the The mechanism to correct it is to persuade the drug user that it's a bad thing to do. Yeah, [00:18:00] and the impact of stigmatisation. The person is sort of considered the least a citizen and punished, you know? So it's criminal right disease discourse. Well, the drugs are OK, but some people can't cope with the drug, So, um, the person has a predisposition, so we should protect them from the drug. Hence the abstinence model. Yeah, the a AN a model. And then if people abstain, then they'll be fine, you know? And for some people, [00:18:30] the drug is OK and then pharmacological discourses Drugs are dangerous and overpowering we need to protect people from them. We have legislation, Uh, and people are victims who might use the drug. Yeah. So you have legislation, Um, again, some of the a AN a discourses. You know, we are powerless over drug use, etcetera. Yeah, and in fact, it's much more complicated. It's more of a triangle. There's no one causative thing. Yeah, and there's a relationship [00:19:00] of factors, so I'm just trying to give you a sense of the the different ways in which, you know, discourses work in different areas. So what I want to do now, if I can is Are you alright if I divide you into groups and give you some something to do? Yeah. And what I'd like to do is, um, first of all, give you some quotes [00:19:30] from Plunket nurses, and I'd like you to kind of just have a think about them. So I'm wondering, um, can I divide you that? Yeah.

IRN: 478
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/dym_farida_sultana.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003913
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089207
TITLE: Farida Sultana - Decolonise Your Minds hui
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Farida Sultana
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Farida Sultana; People of Colour Decolonisation Hui; activism; domestic violence; family; feminism; immigration
DATE: 5 February 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Ponsonby Community Centre, 20 Ponsonby Terrace, Ponsonby, Auckland
CONTEXT: In this podcast Farida gives a keynote presentation at the hui.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um I thought I talk a little bit about my own experience and the way I see the world in my eyes, and it might be boring if it is boring. Please feel free to fall asleep. And if it is not boring, then keep your eyes open and and if you shut your ear if you want Um, I think it was, um 1991 when [00:00:30] as a client, I went to women's refuge in the UK. I first attended a for for feminist women and I thought, Wow, it's so cool. Um, I was a young mother with, um with a young daughter for me was, um it was bigger. Picture was abuse. I didn't link the abuse with, um anything else. And I thought, um, it was luxury to have [00:01:00] a day not working and sitting around talking about a whole lot of things and trust me, half the thing I didn't even understand at that time. Um, And after many years, when um, there was a in Hamilton, a few Maori women called me feminist. I thought What? They're probably talking about someone else. And I remember national collective CEO. She pulled me from my back and said they're talking about you. I said, Wow. [00:01:30] What did I do for a minute? Um, I thought being feminist, you have to be somebody that was in my mind. You have to be out of spoken. You have to write. You have What I was doing is was what needed to be done in front of my life circle. And basically it was coping mechanism. What do you cope with? The situation throws into you and, um later on, I asked one of my friends, You know, they called [00:02:00] me feminist today. My friend said This is good or bad. I said, I have no idea. Since then Um, there was many things I did and it got attached My close friends who know, uh the way I live, the way I think they always tell me that you are not only feminist, you are radical feminist, but polish it down because our community is not ready. [00:02:30] Even when I stood for election, I remember my advisor within the party told me polish it down further because the community is not ready. My question is, how long to polish it down? You can polish it down. You can dress according to the society. You can walk according to the society. But how long? How many of my generation is over? As I told you, IM. Um um [00:03:00] middle age, mature age. But I don't want Sasha or people like yourself to polish it down, because if you polish it down, it is going to remain down. That piece of advice, I don't know. I call it feminist or radical feminist, but I feel that needed to happen. The community is not ready unless we are ready to challenge it. When I was writing the book reflecting back [00:03:30] in my, um, young age, I realised a couple of my aunties were feminist. Maybe they didn't know they are feminist. They worked out on their marriage. They did farming by themselves. They didn't bring up their Children. They used to go and challenge community leaders. Um, I had a lot of those challenges. Then I looked back and, um, I feel now maybe there wasn't. In theory, [00:04:00] they didn't have a workshop, but they live their life as a feminist, which they were stigmatised by the rest of the family members. Um, when I grew up, my mother always told me not to be like my aunties. Always do not sit like your aunties. Do not eat like your aunties. Do not talk like your aunties. When I cut my hair short, my mother told me. Now there is nowhere to stop. You even cut your hair. So my aunties had [00:04:30] a very short hair and that's not common in Bangladeshi village, I said. My hair fall. My mother said, Whatever it is, but you shouldn't have cut it short. But my mother lived with it. Bless my mother. She's lived with that. What? I've probably given her enough to her. She lived with that, but, um, that's where it is. The moment you step out of the circle is going to be a challenge, and it is an individual challenge or it is a challenge. As a group, [00:05:00] I feel looking at the young people. You are blessed to have each other when the challenge come like, um, like myself. I didn't I had my friends who actually feminist, but they wouldn't act like a feminist because they had to. They had to, uh, confirm the society, Um, a 67 other women who started with me if I look back and if some of you probably don't [00:05:30] know Shati organisation started 15 years ago in New Zealand. We started, um because there was a large number of immigrant women who came to New Zealand and refugee women. But there wasn't a place where these women could go simply learn English language, uh, communicate with each other how they're coping with the new country. Um, usually community organisation, they have their, um, association or societies, [00:06:00] which is, um, man does everything they have a token woman in the committee which would be cultural secretary, or or or or probably cooking secretary. Uh, the rest of the work will be done by the, um, men sitting in the table, including ethnic, um, council. Some of you probably know about ethnic council. Uh, but the women will be making tea in the kitchen. That's their contribution, right? [00:06:30] That gets done in the kitchen. Um, the most of the work will be done by the men in the front. And this was a platform where women could sit down and talk and learn English, get get to know each other. But there are unfortunate circumstances. Um, I think we had a couple of sessions, Um, without domestic violence. Then we got into domestic violence. The women were abused who came and talked about it. We had to set up an organisation [00:07:00] to deal with that. Not that we knew what we setting up. But we set up our organisation to deal with that. And I believe all of my friends who stepped out and helped us to set up organisation. They all are feminist in their heart. But how many of them could have been challenged coming out? They probably gone, Had a lot of a lot of domestic violence going on in their house because all of a sudden, their wives going out, [00:07:30] spending time, learning, driving, doing things, telling their husband this is not right. This is wrong. But some of the marriages cope. Some of the marriages did not cope because of the through the process. Some of them has made a personal sacrifice, um, to keep the organisation and our vision going that other women could get help. Um, but, uh but then do I look back and say, because they didn't cut their hair short? They are not [00:08:00] feminist. No, I think they are also feminist and one of my Yeah, true. At least you were laughing. One of my friends, um who, um, who, uh, founding member of, um, her daughter joined newest venture, which is a new office in Melbourne. Um, and, um, her daughter just [00:08:30] finished degree in psychology. She joined the group and this girl whom I saw, uh, half the time working around, um, this size. And now she grown up. Um, she was sitting in a meeting and talking to the other women about feminism and how we should not stand. We should stand against violence. We shouldn't be tolerating violence. And when she finished, I asked, My friend is that that is [00:09:00] her name. Is that your daughter who is stopping? She says, yes. That's what we did. Maybe I didn't change my outlook, but I made sure that she do. And that's what, as a mother as we can do, um, the challenges that, um, we jointly faced in New Zealand. You know how, um when we came here, we learn a lot about, uh, [00:09:30] culturalism. And I think, um, hundreds of meeting over the years I sat there and the 10 15 years ago. What was now probably a lot better. I said. There there's a, um, discuss bicultural discussion. Then you sit there and think, Do I fit anywhere? Nobody could see that I'm sitting here. Nobody could even think that I can contribute something, even though my English is not probably perfect. But [00:10:00] I can also think. And then at some point you try to push yourself and contribute a little bit. And then when the minute gets done, if you don't reflect on at all in the and it went on for a very, very long time, and it's still probably going to go on because the acknowledgement of the other people, which is other [00:10:30] Lucia, one of our founding member, always gets really upset. When you take things and you take other, she said, we always going to be other. Um, then you take other and, um, other people problem will remain. Other group people problem if you've seen that. Just, uh, last weekend there was a quite a lot of talk in the media with Dominion Post and, um, Michael Lloyd actually called the ethnic community man. Monkey monkey should go back to the [00:11:00] monkey land. Um, the, um then Sasha got all prepared when in, uh, breakfast news to defend her organisation. We're talking about another 15 years. How long this issue is going to be. Other people issues monkeys issues. Monkeys should go back to monkey land. Unless people from here stand up and you talk about it. Talk about institutional racism, which is more [00:11:30] dangerous than you see racist people on the road who throw things to you. Who wants to beat you up? That at least you could see. At least you can feel it. You can You can take a stick or do something about it. But But what do you do when, uh, politely people thank you in your face and say I had so many letters. Thank you. There [00:12:00] is no allocation of allocation of fund for migrant and refugee community. Why do you thank me for that? I don't need a thank you. You could hear instead of thank you. You would say Just get lost. We have no money for you. That would have been much big way of explaining other than say thank you. There is no money for you. Your problem doesn't exist because it doesn't matter. Even the suicide rate is after [00:12:30] Maori, the highest suicide rate in Auckland District Health Board 2007 and eight. It was, um, migrant young people. It doesn't matter. Even you dying in breast cancer because it's not detected because there is not enough female, um, female interpreters of support that could reach it Doesn't matter if you get a job and get paid less. It doesn't matter if you work three times harder than the white organisation [00:13:00] and they can still put you down. It doesn't matter because you don't exist. You stay in the box of others. Hey, then, uh, then this this generation of, uh, mid-twenties people, some of you will come out and challenge it, and some of you will try not to see it. Because if you don't see it, it's much nicer [00:13:30] because then you can fit in as a you can just sit in. My daughter works in the media I. I often tell my daughter, Don't turn up to be a banana. Then your mother cannot take the shock. Yeah, just stay brown. Be proud of to be brown. My daughter [00:14:00] tells me, Mom, there's the two things. If you see a racism, you need to fight for it. If you don't see a racism and you know there is a racism, then you learn to stand up much easier. I don't know if that theory works, but some young people might take that theory because they want to be fit into, um, basically, um, white, um, middle aged male corporate because you need to fit in to make money, to [00:14:30] pay your bill, bring up your Children. But the moment you start seeing it, then you get hurt. You get angry, you get frustrated and you need to do something about it. But I maybe me, I feel go down to that road because at least you're changing something for your next generation. I don't know if I made a huge difference or not, but I tried last 15, 16 years, every day, make a little [00:15:00] difference for my daughter and granddaughter and for everybody else. I think that's what I'm going to do. If I leave up to 90 I'll do it in the restroom, too. Thank you very much.

IRN: 477
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/dym_belinda_borell.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003912
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089206
TITLE: Belinda Borell - Decolonise Your Minds hui
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Belinda Borell
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Belinda Borell; People of Colour Decolonisation Hui; activism; identity; labels; privilege; racism; stereotypes
DATE: 4 February 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Ponsonby Community Centre, 20 Ponsonby Terrace, Ponsonby, Auckland
CONTEXT: In this podcast Belinda gives a keynote presentation at the hui.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um, one of the things that's always really struck me when I've been doing the privileged work is how almost completely, Um, the Asian aggregate group is co-opted into whiteness. So how much? Um, uh, uh, those brown people doesn't always necessarily include the Asian group, and they get kind of co-opted into this model minority kind of status. Um, and, um, a couple [00:00:30] of the slides that I'm gonna show, um, will look a little bit heavy. But what I wanted to show was some of the most recent, uh, racism experiences of racial discrimination work that we've seen, Um, and how the two populations, white Europeans and Asians couldn't be more different in terms of their experiences of that. And, um, just makes me think, really, um, a lot about how to try and be politicised about the way that the Asian aggregate group is co-opted often into, uh, being the [00:01:00] white being kind of the model non-white group. Um, And what that means in terms of how it sets up, um, other non-white non Asian groups in the country to think about the Asian group and to think about their relationships with white people. Um and I'm often in my own, um, family. And in my own experiences, I'm often, um, having these very intricate discussions with my Maori family about their perceptions of the Asian group [00:01:30] and where that comes from and what it means. And, um and what we as Maori, um, can and need to be thinking about in that regard. So that's sort of where I was thinking was some of that, um, as I said before, a key problem when you're talking about societal privilege to a group of non white, um, women, um, is sort of how it's it's almost like I'm coming in to teach a whole room full of fluent speakers how to say, you know, So it's kind of like you're far, [00:02:00] you're not the average group that I would get to talk about this stuff with, And, um, so I'm gonna sort of just mention a bit about what I've been doing with, um around privilege and talking to mainly white academic audiences and white professional bodies. Um, about this stuff, and it always is. There's a few activities that we do, and it's always good when you have, um, a real mixed, um, group. Um, ethnically and, um, in terms of race because it can really show, um, how white [00:02:30] people are viewed as normal and the things they can take for granted. And I'm not sure that's quite gonna work with all of us, but, um, who cares? We'll just go ahead and, um and I'll just and just jump in if you want anything to say anything or whatever. I'm not sure how to get that looking any better, but I'm a big fan of PowerPoint because I don't like writing. I have to do it. But I don't like doing it. Um, so I often will use PowerPoint because I don't write well, but I speak real good. [00:03:00] Um, and there's a couple. I just want to have a couple make make a couple of things. Um, firstly, when I'm feeling really comfortable in a group as I'm here, I'm prone to swearing. And, um, I know some people have issues with that, But as I told Ruth, um, the the the be a good place to swear word is incredibly endearing. And so if I If I swear or you know, um, II, I can sort of do that. Um, it's a compliment because I don't know. I won't do that in some [00:03:30] settings. Um, and also, after I saw Operation eight, I have an aversion to having my photo taken. So if people just for purely political reasons, um so if people can just sort of refrain from doing that, um, it's not because I, you know, that's not a thing. It's not none of that. But, um, I just don't know where those things end up and who gets them and who's seeing them and for what purpose. And I'm really conscious when I've been talking about whiteness and about the [00:04:00] powerful in our society that doesn't always, um, single you out for, um, pats on the back Or, um, you know, no medals coming your way. Um, and in fact, you kind of there's there's almost the opposite. So I I'm I'm really conscious about that. OK, um, so one of the things that I sort of, um, do when I introduce this work to white people who have no concept of what you're talking about. Um, as I as I as I show this matrix, um [00:04:30] and these are kind of how I I've just finished a A four year study around societal privilege in a And this was sort of some of the the frames that we used. And along the top you'll see there's sort of a policy domain. There's a media domain, and then there's sort of an ethnographic everyday people kind of domain. And along this side is sort of some of the ways that we can think about those domains. So ones in terms of identity ones in terms of power and ones in terms of discourse, of how people talk. Um And so, for instance, [00:05:00] I'll often say the people you know Ah, um, So why do you think there isn't a Ministry of Affairs? Why is there no Ministry of Park Affairs? Come on. We got a Ministry of Maori affairs, Minister of Civic Affairs, Ministry of Women's Affairs. There's a youth council. There's a age concern. Why is there no Ministry of Affairs? And most people have no Oh, my God. And I mean, the the major thing is that when you start actually using that term park and you start using that term white and you start talking about their cultural products. [00:05:30] One of the things that I notice is the body language in the audience starts to change very dramatically. And you'll find all of the people of colour in the room who have been sitting like this because you've been talking about poverty. We've been talking about dispossession talking about all this other stuff, and you start talking about whiteness and power and who has it and who doesn't. You find all the people of colour in the room, Start start from the from this and start to do this. Oh, right. And it's something that I never knew until I actually started [00:06:00] talking about this stuff and seeing it in the room. And the white people in the room start sort of like, you know, because they're very comfortable talking about poverty. They're very comfortable talking about that. What can we do for you? How can we help you? You know, um, how How can we better understand you to make you better? You know, it's all this code and kind of terminology. They start like this and start doing this. And so it's a real um, and of course, the people of colour never knew that they were doing this until they start doing this right, And the white people [00:06:30] never knew they were doing this until they start doing this. So it sort of really highlights some of our, um, pre pre understandings, you know, our paradigms about when we're talking about social relations. The other thing that I do in my lectures is I set rules about who can speak and when and for how long. And so when I'm in a discussion and it always I don't I don't understand why, but more than anything else, it seems to connect with people. So when I'm in a space, I'll say, If you are white and you are male, [00:07:00] you get one question or comment and that is it. You cannot ask it first, and you cannot ask it last. Um, because you've been conditioned. It's not your fault. It doesn't make you bad people. You're not an asshole, but you're being conditioned to speak all the time when you're not wanted, when it's not valuable was when it's irrelevant. It's not your fault. You don't know that it is. You just There's a gap in the space, and you are expected to fill it, Um, so I want you to be conscious about your input into the open talk time. [00:07:30] Um and then I'll say, if you are not white and you are not male, you've also been conditioned to shut up. And I would invite you to say more than you might otherwise do just to try and work this out. Um, it it it works. I mean, every non-white male in the audience goes, Yeah, because it's like finally, you're getting those pricks. Someone's saying something to them and all the white men are kind of like, you know, it's it's there, but I haven't had any problems with it. No one's ever sort of come to me and had [00:08:00] a huge issue with it. And it does. It works. It makes those white men shut up. Think carefully about what it is that they want to ask, because you're only gonna get one option and to ask it properly. And, um, I'm I'm for it, but I'm all for that. I think that's a good, uh, way to to work some of this stuff. And if you're in the business of social change, it's got to start with us. You can't expect your clients or your, uh, you know your students or someone else to do it. We have to sort of be in the business of trying to do it ourselves. Um, so we talk about [00:08:30] that we talk a bit about in terms of identity in the media about this group, this ethnic group called New Zealander and what that means, Um I mean, there's a whole wealth of deconstruction about Oh, I'm not any ethnic group. I'm a New Zealander and you're a New Zealander too. And we are all New Zealanders. So, you know, we we sort of know what to make of that. But that's a very privileged position to think that, you know, your national identity is your ethnic group, and I don't want to have anything to do with that. It's all tied into that thing. I don't have a culture. I don't know what it is and you're so lucky and all the rest [00:09:00] of it. Um OK, so that's sort of one of the things that I use. Um, I do A I do a slide about race and ethnicity because a lot of people don't understand what the difference is. They use the different words kind of interchangeably and they're not the same. Um So in terms of race, like, you know, we we all understand that the race has no literal meaning, right? So there's no The genetic variation between a white person and a black person is less than the genetic variation [00:09:30] between a tall person and a short person, so the actual genetic basis of race has no literal meaning. But when we see people and we make a social interpretation on how they look and it's that that is what's sort of more more understood as race and where racism comes from, so we're not it's not about, you know, your no shape and measuring the size of your head and all that crap that those working ethnographers used to do back in the back in the day, Um, sort of about a social interpretation of what that [00:10:00] means. And I'm always interested in the terms. Uh uh, not only in how you look, but in your language that you speak in your accent and in your behaviour. Now, you will all understand that there are certain accents in this country that are really valued. Oh, I just love it. How you say that can you say this? Can you say that? Oh, that sounds so great. And it's usually French, uh, Scottish. Any of the kind of European countries. Those accents are viewed very differently than accents from almost anywhere else. No one's asking tiny [00:10:30] people. Oh, that's so lovely. Can you say this? Can you say that? Right. So accent is an important kind of feature. So it's not just about what you look like. It's also about some of these other things as well. Um, ethnicity is, uh, of course, more about choice than that, then just that social interpretation of how you look. Um, I always think it's about being a mass expert, because I remember when I was 12. Um, I had to fill out something at the at the post office. I can't remember what it was, and they ask you what [00:11:00] your ethnicity was, and I'm 38 and and when I was 12, which would be hm 80 something, Um, I had to fill out the form, and that was when we still use the blood quantum, the fractions kind of definition. Yeah, bro, that old. And, um And that was before it was, you know, before self identification really kind of took off. It was still this blood quantum and they and they said, um, in order to be able to tick that you were Maori, you had to be at least 1/16 Maori. [00:11:30] And I remember, um, all through my, um, schooling of being a bit of a, um, an outlier in that I was always very good at maths. And I remember thinking to myself, Yeah, and I remember thinking in my head Oh, yeah, and coming out that I was more than 1 16 thinking, Yeah, I could take that. I was Maori, Um And so I always think, um, sometimes ethnicity is about being kind of this mass expert because you're always asked to kind of quantify the bits of yourself that are something and the bits of yourself that is something else and what that means. [00:12:00] And that in itself has a, um, has an aim assimilationist, uh, agenda. Because if you can be, are you only 1/16 Maori, then you're 15, 16, something else, and why not go with that something else? So it has all those kind of political connotations. Um, but the bigger question is really who is always asked to define themselves. And that's what most people have the greatest trouble with. Because when you start talking about their culture and who their people are and what their structures are and what [00:12:30] that means for the world, they start getting defensive because they've never had to do that before. They're incredibly unsophisticated at having those discussions, Um, so we got to feel for them and try and help them and move them along and do exercises and get them doing stuff so that they're feeling good. Um, because the whole point of this is that it's not about bad people, and that's real important. You know, you didn't You can't wake up tomorrow and not be You can't wake up tomorrow and not have white skin. But you have to understand that those things mean something doesn't [00:13:00] make you a bad person. But we live in a in a society where those things kind of happen. It's not any bad people involved. It's about a structure that enforces that and trying to keep that because everyone's immediately wanting to think I'm doing anything wrong. I'm not privileged. Sometimes you can't even use that word. I'm not privileged. No one's done anything for me. My parents, My mother died when I was 10. All the rest of it, right? And it's not about what you are experiencing just as an individual, but as part of the whole structure. OK, I use this concept of racism comes from, uh, an [00:13:30] ethnic African American colleague called Kamara Jones. Um, and this is her definition of racism. I really quite like it because I think it's quite good. Um, I've put the bulbs and that's not her. The bulbs, um so she defines it as a system of structuring opportunity and assigning value on the basis of the social interpretation of how we look. And I thought that's really good firstly, because it talks about it as being a system, and so it's not, and every person is a part of that system. Every every person here is a part of the white system of a white structure, not [00:14:00] because we choose to be, but because that is the structure that we've inherited. Um, I like the thing about structuring opportunity because that's true assigning value. That's true, and based on the social social interpretation of how we look But I'm also interested in how we speak, how we behave and what groups we are members of, because I think those things are important as well. Um, OK, I just wanted to show you some of these new racism stats because the whole, um, model minority, Um, I think it's a load of bullshit. I can see [00:14:30] where there are some, um, connections. Economically. Um, geographically, I think there are some, um there's some, uh, validity to some of this kind of co-opting of of the Asian group into whiteness. Um, but I wanted to show these are the two papers that I'm gonna look at. Um, it's it's not It's not gonna be dramatic. It's not too too much work. Um, the first one are from colleagues from Wellington and their their survey has been, um, the National Health Survey. And they've been able to [00:15:00] put in some questions about, uh, discrimination. And the second one is about young people. So the second one is the youth 2007 survey that's gone around, uh, high schools throughout the whole country. Um, all young people, all the people, young people in it are between the ages of 13 and 18 majority of them in between, Uh, from 14 to 17 years old. Um, and we'll talk a bit about that. But the only two tables I wanted to show you Yeah, [00:15:30] OK, so I suppose if I get up, it might be easier. Um, so these are the items and one of the new things about asking about racism. Because when you say, Oh, if you had an experience of racism and you don't make it any more specific than that, then many white people think that they've had an experience of racism because someone's called them honky. Right, So? So one of the newer things about, um when you when you're asking discrimination questions, is they start asking for a site. So where is it happening and what is happening when when it when it occurs. Um, so the first line here is [00:16:00] about, uh and this is people who have experienced racial discrimination ever in their life. So it's not any more specific than that. Um, so this is when you had a physical attack, a verbal attack. And then there's these sections which is unfair treatment, so unfair treatment and health and work and housing. Right? So those are the three areas that have been looked at. Um And then this is the overall discrimination. Oh, and I've gone through and done it all in different colours so everybody could see the difference. OK, so physical attack for Maori is [00:16:30] is very high. So 7. 8% 5. 4 between this is 2002 and this is 2006 7. Right, So this is the time thing. The important thing. So remember for this is that in terms of overall discrimination by Maori, Pacific, Asian and European in every group, overall discrimination is decreasing. Except the Asian group and the Asian group, their, uh their self reported discrimination is increasing. And that's [00:17:00] the only group in which that's happening. Um, to pick out the sort of specifics, um, verbal attacks are very high, so that's being called a certain name and even have that. But see, this is what's important, because if you look at the past, find their statistics, that's where their racism is. They're not getting they're not getting they're not getting discriminated against in, uh, in health. That's 1%. They're not getting discriminated against in work that doesn't even get to 2%. And they're not being discriminated [00:17:30] in housing, not at all. Their discrimination happens in being called names. That's not the same as structure. That's an interpersonal act. Those are different than the structural acts in which all the other groups, um, are are featuring. And I think that's really important, because if you just ask about racism, then you get all that bullshit like we are groups racist, racist. Everybody says things about everybody. That's actually not true. You know, we live in a racialized society, Yes, but that doesn't mean that every [00:18:00] group is racist. We're experiencing it in the same way. And so I think that that's really important. You know that the the discrimination happens at the verbal attacks for the every other group that happens at all the structural elements. Um, so the biggest thing for the Asian group is this is a dramatic increase in discrimination reported at work from work in the work environment. That's increasing a lot, Um, but so is healthcare. That's gone from 2. 3 to 4. 8% work [00:18:30] from 8% to 11. 8% So that's going up a lot. Um, and then housing from 4 to 5. 3 for the Maori Pacific Group, the Pacific Group they have They have, um, a large amount of discrimination in terms of work as well. Maori is not so much, but in housing, Maori getting discriminated against a lot more in housing. 9. 8% for Maori and housing, um, than almost any other group Pacific. A lot of this is in the workplace, and for Asians, it's sort of it's a it's [00:19:00] a it's a, um, proportional increase in every area. So what I think that that sort of goes to show is that, um oh, the only other thing is that they took they put down here whether you are reporting one item only two items or three or more. So this is about the accumulation. This is about how many different kind of, uh, discriminatory events you are experiencing. Um, and of course, it's highest amongst Maori. Um, but now, uh, it's highest amongst [00:19:30] Maori, but it's decreasing, but amongst Asian, it's it's it's increasing almost double. And so me and the I had a chat with the authors and We've tried to figure out what it is that's made this dramatic increase in the Asian group in that four years, and I think it. We think it comes down to two things. Um, one is that the exposure is increasing, so the actual events are increasing. Um, the that's happening. It's happening more and more or two that, um and there is a bit of evidence to support this, that as an aggregate group, the Asian [00:20:00] population don't always, um, have a lot of faith in answering research surveys and questionnaires, uh, confidently. So they may not always, um, tell the truth, uh, for fear of a whole range of other things, of things, somehow coming back to get them coming back to sort of feature. That has been, um, noticeable in the Asian group. And we think maybe that has been changing as well. Where there's many more of them actually answering. Truthfully, um, the key thing to remember about this is it doesn't tell us who the perpetrators of that are, so [00:20:30] it may be a lot of in group stuff. It may be a lot of other whole lot of other things going on. Um, so that's amongst adults. And then the last one that I wanted to show you was amongst young people because I think some of that's actually uh, pretty out of it. And I mean, some of you, in your introduction had talked a bit about it as well. Um, I can't see it, but anyway, um, so this is done with all those high school students. There's nine, about nearly 10,000 of them [00:21:00] throughout the whole country. Um, this is about had experienced ethnic ethnicity related bullying, and the Asian group is by far and away the biggest in that in that area. And that's 8. 5% of all the Asian kids that answered That survey had experienced ethnicity related bullying. It's a huge, huge problem, and I don't see anybody addressing it, to be honest, um, treated unfairly by the police. Well, no surprises that it's Maori Pacific that are featuring the highest, and that, but A [00:21:30] and two is 5. 5. 4% of the kids are experiencing unfair treatment by the police for Maori 6. 5 Pacific. It's 7. 5 so that's kind of high. And that group, um and then by a health professional. The highest is among Pacific, so they're being discriminated against in health. I think probably a lot of that has to do with language and a whole range of other things. Um, so this whole kind of idea that, um, the Asian aggregate group and I say aggregate because Asian is not an ethnicity, right? [00:22:00] It's not ethnicity. It's just an aggregate name for a whole group of people from a range of different places with a range of different ethnic groups. Um and so this whole idea that that group is the model minority, Uh, that's I wouldn't want to be that that's not the model, uh, experience there. So there's a whole range of issues that we could be working with that I think the model minority, um, discourse can really work against us trying to address some of that stuff. [00:22:30] OK, OK, so let's do an activity because, you know, that's how we roll. And everyone's been sitting for ages. Um, what I thought that I would do is, um first thing we do, what I do in workshops is we do an if if a racial and ethnic, um type list I have to tell all the this doesn't mean that you believe them. This is just what you've heard. Believe that. You know, [00:23:00] all these different stereotypes happen. Um, I don't know if we should write them, or people can just remember in your head. But if I was to ask you what other ethnic stereotypes of Maori, what would we say? That should be all right. I reckon everyone's got a nothing new to people here. So if we were gonna say that, right? [00:23:30] Yeah, I don't Um um I'm I'm worried that that was the precedent was set now. So if we were to ask you about what are the what are the, uh, racial stereotypes of Maori? What would we What would we think? That we're here? Poor Heather gangs. We on the table. We what? We love jail. I was thinking about Elizabeth about her, her, um, working in the district court. Because in the district [00:24:00] court, where my family are from, they have to call the out by by initial. So it's C and then for them. You get you get where I'm going with it. Um, So, yeah, there's the jail thing. Anything else? Violence. Yeah, poor teenage pregnancies. Wow. Dodges, right? Some. [00:24:30] Yeah. So OK, what if we were to say what other kind of racial stereotypes of, uh, civic people? What would we say? Lazy? Yeah. Overstayers. Yeah. Christian, That stereotype. Yeah, that's true. What about if we were to say, what are the, uh, racial stereotypes of, [00:25:00] uh ah. Rather than, say, Asian. Although when you do say Asian, it does that works in the park in your mind, like, you know. Oh, I don't know any. I don't know any Vietnamese people or, you know, you get it too, too. You drill down too much, you start to lose them. So you gotta try and keep it aggregates. Do work aggregates do work for them. But you gotta You gotta remember, like as a as a population. Like I said, they are incredibly unsophisticated at this stuff. They don't know half of what we know. We would experience more [00:25:30] stuff around ethnicity after from what we've experienced just up to lunch time today than they would probably had in their whole life. So, you know, you got to feel put the hand out and hope that they that they kind of take it. They say that they put us together in books. So Asian, African and South American like I've been called South America so many times. And I am, like, actually me. [00:26:00] That was very business. Yeah, it's like many countries, I feel like, uh, I say, Asian people always, uh, Asian, They always said, Like, uh, Japanese, Chinese, East Asian and then ethnic. It's like, Wow, [00:26:30] it's African Indian. No. Yeah. So thinking of any of those groups. What would be some of the racist stereotypes? Some of the racial or ethnic stereotypes of those groups? Weird food, Naggy curry munches. Come on, you can all do much better. Dad drives terrorist [00:27:00] sex. Yeah, Sexist barber. Barbaric, uneducated. Cool. Oh, you like you like fish, right? You eat the chicken? Yeah, absolutely. And now what if we were to think about the racial stereotypes of white people? What if we were to think about the pakeha ethnic group in this country? What are some of the racist racial stereotypes we have of that group? [00:27:30] This is how this is how different different this group is because in my workshops, when I asked that question, there's a like a about a five or 12th silence while everyone goes. Oh, fuck. I knew I was coming, and I don't have anything to say. What do you mean? Yeah, that important rich talk a lot. That [00:28:00] loud, ignorant, lovely title. Yeah, boring. See, this is this is where the this is where the politicisation of the group is tripping me up because Because normally when you say that it's rich, um, nice houses, um, good jobs. And actually, when you put them on the board, every different group that's not [00:28:30] white. All of their racial stereotypes are negative and orientation, they're all bad. And you start talking about the white people. What you notice is when you put the words up mainly in a white audience, they're all positive markers. They're rich. Um, they got good jobs. They're well educated, you know. You name it. Um, so we got a few. We got a few different ones, but oh, my God. Yeah. Um, [00:29:00] so I mean, that's sort of one of the one of the examples that I use about trying to get people firstly, to understand that actual racial stereotypes of white people are quite difficult to come up with when you think about? I mean, you you you guys are not in that realm. The kind of, uh, like I say, you're fluent speakers and they're at, so you know, it's not quite the, um, but by and large, um, white people have never had to think about that. They never had to think about Oh, you know, they understand all the racial words that they use for everyone else. [00:29:30] They may not believe them, but they are discourse that they can draw on any time they want. But as a sort of an understanding about their own, uh, kind of, uh, stereotypes is actually really, really new to them. Um, the other thing I wanted to sort of talk about was, uh, one of the terminologies. And, you know, you always know whether you've made it in the world or not. When Microsoft Word recognises your name I, I you know, like, I've got to be a senior researcher and I had never read um Oh, like what? [00:30:00] Yeah. What? No, I've never read free, but I've been reading free air for my PhD. And, um, you know, you've made it in the world where Microsoft Word will tell you how to spell that person's name. So free is in Microsoft Word. That's a word that names a word and that will tell you how to spell it. Um, you know, and when I've been thinking about some of these terminologies. So if we look at the word underclass underclass, Microsoft Word recognises underclass as a word that's a word under privilege. That's [00:30:30] a word. And one thing that I always show is and you're not gonna see it because something's happened to the thing here. Right now, you can see it so underprivileged. Well, that's a word underclass. Well, that's a word. Underclass is a word over class overprivileged. Look how fast those little red lines that micro software is saying. That's not a word that's [00:31:00] not a word. So why is it that underclass is a word underclass? We when, when we're being told these words by politicians and others that we think about the actual term under is a relational word, It's It's, uh, it's if [00:31:30] you're under, then by definition, somebody else is over. That's what the word means. It's a it's a it's a retrospective. Uh, not retrospective. What would you call it? Relational proportional word, right? So if you've got one, you've got to have the other. But we never talk about the other. That other overprivileged? Um, yes, that's the point. I don't think there's any such thing as being overprivileged. I think that you can be You can have privilege. [00:32:00] But I think it's not about being too privileged, which overprivileged kind of brings with it. And it's not about like, giving away your privilege. It's about giving love. And, you know, like I. I see, like a lot of white shame if you want to call it where people try to, you know? Oh, I don't wanna be I wanna be Maori like you guys, Um and I'm gonna give away all my white privilege, but that's not possible. But in a way, it's a case to the point where you got [00:32:30] it. It, in a way, it's a case in point that you've got it, but you want to give it away, you know, because I don't want to be treated like this anymore. I want to be real. I want to be treated like everybody else, but they still got that privilege regardless of if they say I don't have that privilege because I give it away. So I don't think it's It's too too much, you know is happens and becomes up too much [00:33:00] and over because of your privilege at the expense of. So if you have something that it's not at the expense of everyone, you wouldn't have a dynamic where you have under and over. You just have, like, stuff. Yeah, everyone has stuff that is called whatever. But where is that dynamic that becomes? Uh, yeah, you can see it as happening at the expense of other people being able. You could I see it as that become the two or whatever love my kid, [00:33:30] but corruption and and and and power and taking power that But he If if I look at the performance, they might see that right? I live in South Auckland, but I now we've got a school right next to Kings College that is very underprivileged schools, then poverty. Extreme. We've got Kings College on the privileged right majority that go there. [00:34:00] They have the trains stop before the main station. They have their own special little stop. They have their own special little people that come on and make sure that they protect them from the brown people that are at the same station so that they can avoid mixing them with the brown population. Now that tells me that there is an over privilege on a particular group because every other person is supposed to be a legal citizen, Yet they are given their own [00:34:30] little bus or train stop. That's only 400 metres or main train stop so that they can get off and not have to get off with the brown subclass of society because that's how they are deemed to be. I guess if I look at it, I'm part of Aboriginal too Australian aboriginal persons. If you look at it, um, I see overprivileged among colonial prison every day and being and not having indeed a human being [00:35:00] that in 1967 we were for and fauna, so they believe it would kill us and give over murder because we were not the human until then, and they would us. They would use us and waistcoats and burs because they were the Victorian population. You see, the races in Australia and Australia is down to the overprivileged whites who don't see themselves as they see themselves as the true Australians and don't give the indigenous population a voice at all. They have no voice. They have no [00:35:30] treaty treaty. But we have no privilege of that treaty that was removed the day from 18 42. I think it was when the first case came against a treaty breach. So you never had privilege. We have had that taken away from us from the day we signed that treaty over. So there is too much privilege sometimes. And New Zealand whites don't appreciate the fact that they come into this world with more. [00:36:00] There was until recently we know about the stolen generation. We all know about them having been stolen, don't we? We don't know about the stolen generations of Maori. We were removed and we had our ethnicities falsified on legal documents taken so that we've been illegally adopted by whites because they saw it as better for us. That was because they saw them as being better. They are over privileged in every way [00:36:30] of those rights because I was taken away and removed. I'm not a lost child. I'm not here. I'm none of them. I am a stolen generation, and many of our people are stolen and taken and removed. Institutional I can put in. And that's where overprivileged, if that comes in with whites because they make the laws, they define the laws and they decide who has the privilege. And this is just my opinion. But I, I see over That's just my humble [00:37:00] I do. I know what I see what you're saying, though, because I think that is a debate that we that we, um, are often having in in our circles that are talking about privilege is, um, you know, so does that mean we want we want white kids to be abused more? You know, that's not sort of, but I do think that, um that the relativity, because the problem you know, the problem with the whole concept is their their their within it, you know. So there's no kind of all privileged group, an underprivileged group. [00:37:30] There's this whole kind of continual of people, and I mean, of course, every single individual, every individual is oppressed in one way and privileged in other ways. But what we're talking about is how population groups as a whole of society, um, are kind of treated and understood. And I think, you know, I think it would be fair to say that, um that OK, everybody, as a as a as a fair skinned Maori, I know that there are ways that I get treated before people understand that I'm Maori. That will be different to others. And I think so. Every person who has white [00:38:00] skin, irrespective of your ethnicity, You got something in that bank account that you can you can you can call on when you need to, you know, And I think that if you think about privilege in terms of class, in terms of gender, in terms of, um, occupational outcome in terms of home ownership, privilege gets concentrated more and more and more into the elites. And I think that the kind of current kind of economic and political structures that the world has and is moving more towards is increasing that. So there has to be a way that we can kind of understand [00:38:30] the relativity of privilege in a similar way that we understand the relativity of disadvantage because I think that that disadvantage scale everybody is an expert. You can ask anybody what that means, and they'll have an idea about it for you. But I think the over the over example people don't really understand what that means and the complexity of it. Um and I mean, the the biggest concern about white privilege is that most white people, apart from the colour of their skin, um, are not advantaged by it anyway. So the whole kind of privilege argument is detrimental [00:39:00] to everybody in it, not just the people at the bottom, because the people at the top, uh, you know, they they don't often develop coping strategies. I mean, one of the things I've been in my selfish moments laughing my ass off about is the whole pray for farming. The whole pray for farm thing being sold to the Chinese. Um, now, as a Maori, I'm like, Hm. You know? Yeah, it's half a dozen or something or six of the other. You know what? What is it? What? What real difference does it make to Maori? Um, about that. But you see, the white people are going ape shit about that, [00:39:30] but the killings are their own land. See on, you know online about the Chinese buying, Uh, you know what's been offered to them by another, um, to sell. And so in my sensitive moments in my you know, in my inner south in my outer south, I was like, Oh, bummer. You know, in in the South, I'm laughing my ass off because it's like, Oh, you guys sound like a bunch of Maori, [00:40:00] you know, Stop. Stop your whining and get over it. You know, the whole disco. So, you know, you can sort of you can sort of see just how transient that kind of privilege can be. And once you're on the receiving end, what then is your attitude and how well can you, uh, throw a line out to the other groups that have been saying the same thing for a long, long time? And [00:40:30] and then the latest thing has been that James Cameron, who was the director of Avatar, has bought some property. That guy's a fuckwit. I have seen him interviewed, and I'm like, Oh, my God, please. I was just devastated when I knew that guy is moving to a. That to me is a bigger concern than the Craver Farms. But you know what? I mean is sort of. I've just been laughing my ass off at all. The pakeha who [00:41:00] have just been outraged about it and like they're starting to feel really like vulnerable in their own land. And some of them have even been starting to make the leap with Oh, well, this must be how Maori feel. And we're all like, Hello. In fact, you know, I know many Maori who have got a bit more faith in the Chinese might have. They might have a better deal with the Chinese, and they've had with with that's just that's just us. I don't know if that's whatever. Um, so I mean, yeah, cool. Shall we carry on? [00:41:30] I've just got a couple more things to do. Um, one of the things that I like to do is that I need to try and get white people talking about their culture because they don't think they have any. We don't have any culture, but often in the in the national discourse, if you hear about what is Kiwi culture, and if you ask that professor extraordinaire Google to tell you, uh under pictures, Google Pictures What? Kiwi? I did a search for Kiwi, New Zealand Culture, Maori culture, culture, [00:42:00] uh, New Zealand and these are sort of some of the things that I came up with. And what I do is I get a whole bunch of, uh, my workshop, whatever people to start thinking about these images because I use pictures because that's easier for people to kind of get, um, because they don't understand when you talk to them about culture, what that means. It's sort of like, Isn't that what everybody does? It's like, Hm, that's the point. Um, so I use pictures, and I try to get white people to talk about their culture. Now, one of the problems that I've I've profound with this is that it almost [00:42:30] exclusively excludes anyone from the discussion. That's not and not Maori, and I'm not quite sure how to How do I work so that you know, so that everyone can be included in that, Um, because often you put the picture up, you know, people that yes, it is kiwi culture or No, it isn't, um, Maori or so I haven't quite worked out. How do I get, um, non Maori, Non talking about kiwi culture and feeling, Um included in it and part of that discussion. It's something I'm really trying to [00:43:00] work with. Um, So what I do is I show them these pictures. God, I hate this bloody new windows. Right Click a click. OK, so I showed them these pictures, right? And, um, I hope you can sort of see it. And then I get them to say, Is that Kiwi culture? Maori culture, culture? Or what culture is that? And, uh, you know, what do we think about it? Trying to get them. So fish and chips [00:43:30] and everyone sort of like, got you, Um, Buzzy Bee II. I don't know where that came from. I think I thought it was a Christchurch thing, but Buzzy Bee? Yeah. Is that Is that Kiwi culture? That is that Kiwi culture. That's a board of a whole lot of for sale with little white tags on it. So is that kiwi culture? That sort of It was sort of like, you know, lots of people are kind of quiet, but like [00:44:00] I say, I'm trying to work out a way to include the non-white non Maori in the discussion because obviously the whole point is that they don't feel they're not made to feel that they're part of Kiwi culture. That's kind of the whole point of what I'm trying to work on, and I haven't worked out how quite to um, well, I mean the whole point. I mean, it's it's funny, because the whole point of the exercise is is actually aimed [00:44:30] at white people to actually try to get them to understand. When we talk about Kiwi culture or New Zealand culture, often it's a It's a proxy for your shit and not anyone else's shit, you know, and it's trying to get them to see that this is really your stuff. When you say all that shit, I don't have a culture. You're so lucky. This is what you're talking about, you know? Um, so in a way, it's not. It's not for people of colour to actually offer the, but still I want them to. I want people to feel that they can be part of it because [00:45:00] often they're told they're not part of it. And and I mean part of this and and I mean doing this is to try and get white people to understand that they're not part of it, but I'm not quite sure I'm doing it. I'm achieving it. But that's not anything that, um it's not like you can be part of, [00:45:30] Well, I'll show some sides we've got some sides of And I think that's a perfect example of exactly when and and when that is owned as Kiwi culture and when it's definitely not owned. But, um, half as like I've never quite felt Is it OK to wear like a or like a Melbourne and my father, who's the one? But I, I I've never felt like comfortable, But I [00:46:00] think what if some to me and says so what's the significance of that that you know? But when as an expat living in Japan, every country, I feel that I want to somehow display my Kiwi like some of the key person. Oh, and would be like, Oh, like, yeah, I got, like, you know, press earrings and I But I would see I never [00:46:30] New Zealand. But I Yeah, for that nanosecond. Second or not, I actually find it really strange because I've always grown up around You know what we call Jay [00:47:00] here? It doesn't come. And here in New Zealand. Jade and green in them. Yeah, I remember when I first went to Hong Kong. Um and, um, I love Hong Kong. Hong Kong is like my favourite world city, and we had gone me and my twin had gone to, um Oh, we were, you know, he was doing a whole fucking mass of shopping. And we were, um, in the Jade Store. And the man was some, you know, was the of the jade stuff. And [00:47:30] he wanted to have a look at our under his little under his microscope and stuff. And, um, he told us it was B grade grave. Jay, you know, um, and just stop you and I remember looking at night and I mean, my first thought was like, Fuck you. But my my second thought was like, Oh, well, you know, we're all good with it because it's it's It's more than the, um, thing itself. You know, I think a real [00:48:00] it's a real touchy one. I'm never sure. You know, like, um, we've had discussions in our research group about when we've had people in, and then they all overseas guests, and then they've left. Should we give them a po number. They're not Maori. Um, and I always thought, yes, they need it. They need it more than anybody else. We should give a Because they need the the spiritual significance of what it means. But I sort of come to think a little differently about it. I'm not too sure. Now, you know, about about about that? Um, [00:48:30] yeah, I got no proper answers that the jury is out. What I do know, though, is that the more that we, as a nation are working towards, uh, restitution of Maori rights, the more those kinds of things will become acceptable. I feel so the more that you work that that the country is accepting of Maori rights to certain things protecting Maori language, returning Maori land The more that Maori are able to do that, I think the more, um the less [00:49:00] concerned they are about some of those other side of symbolic things. I think you take the plastic tiki thing. That's a real perfect, really, really good example. Now, what's that? Oh, well, some of them are. We know the difference. We can pick out which ones were made by particular Maori artists but the the has been a a new, uh, well, not new, but it's been reinvigorated by a lot of Maori artists in the kind of mid nineties. Um, up until now, um And so you had this whole plastic tiki thing, which [00:49:30] in New Zealand did in the 19 sixties, and they give it to people and I remember seeing them everywhere. And, you know, um and there was a real think about that, about from Maori about that. And so you saw them all disappear, and now they've slowly been kind of coming back. And now you see plastic tiki everywhere, and Maori don't seem to have as much of a problem with it. And I think that that's because your culture never meant anything to start with. And it's kind of like the whole thing about the WAKA, the waka. Um, that was another good example, because the point for Maori is that it is [00:50:00] always about who is controlling the process. Who owns it? Um, who is getting something from it? What does it mean? What processes are being followed? Who has the power in that? The materials and what you're using are kind of secondary things it's like and that's the other thing I noticed. And every other person has something like that. Rugby World Cup. I got this done at Rugby World Cup, and, um and they were like so these guys were busy, like, all day, every day they were down there, Italians and all manner of these people getting to take [00:50:30] home. And I remember sort of thinking having this discussion with a practitioner down there thinking, How do you feel about that? About part of yourself? Is the practitioner going on someone? They're gonna go all over the world about it. Um, and his and his his, uh, theorising was that? Well, we have controlled this. This is part of our destiny, part of us being who we are and sharing it with other people. That's different than someone using our the actual forms. The the bits and pieces that you're doing are kind of secondary to that process. So I always find if we're thinking about [00:51:00] power and those things, um, often, that's where we find the legitimacy who What is a legitimate kind of plastic, if you like, and what is it and what does it mean? So I think it's Yeah, I don't want to make it about the appropriation stuff because I think the cultural appropriation stuff is, to me incredibly complicated. And we often we often made to think about it in really simplistic ways. Either it is or it isn't or it's good or it's not, or you're shit or you're not, you know, and I just think it's much more complicated than that [00:51:30] is my thing of it. I don't know that that picture would generate such discussion about that. Is that Kiwi culture? Does everyone know what that is? This is. But that is that human culture that always gets a whole lot of white people talking. Yeah. Did anyone you don't know This one? This is called outrageous fortune, right? And one of the I mean, [00:52:00] you know, I in my selfish moments, to be perfectly honest with you, I fucking loved it. I thought it was fucking fantastic, because finally, we're shining a light on white criminals. Right? These are your but you notice how endeared they were. You know, you notice how people thought are you? But, you know, and all the crimes they did were kind of pity crimes not really hurting anybody. Just robbing shit, you know? You notice how it was sort of framed that way. I thought it was a fascinating look [00:52:30] at, um at white culture, to be honest, white Kiwi culture and all the Maori in it were fucking choice suits, right? All the Maori were like, Man, they're awesome. Um, so I don't know, I thought it was interesting, but that kind of gets a lot of white people talking about whether that's culture or not. And the biggest people who are against it are we? Still, they don't think that that was culture or anything else like that at all. I my my sort of very we [00:53:00] got and she was really funny. She's like, it's all about family. It's like she does that. She she she's like, Oh, there's white people. And like, they care about their family so much. Yeah, but you know where they what they went and did. After outrageous fortune finished, all the producers [00:53:30] from that show went and created another show, and it was I can't remember what it was called because they only had, like, two episodes but the whole show And this is why I was like, Oh, my God, you people have so misunderstood what the show was about. So this new show was about a family of gods, and they have these kind of old Greek gods, and, um, they're all and I'm like going Oh, my God, you have. And and of course, there was two episodes, and then everyone was like, This is bullshit. And it finished, and it was canned, and I sort of like and they were what they thought was that everybody that was outrageous. [00:54:00] Fortune would watch that. And I'm like going Oh, my God. How could you totally misunderstand? Outrageous fortune is about a woman you know who's trying to keep her shit together and all her family together. Um, and if we want to go and see a whole bunch of white men um, behaving badly and treating women like shit, we can just go outside our own doors. Yeah, everybody was watching that going far. Man, this is so and so next door. I don't need to watch this [00:54:30] to understand it. And so how could you kind of miss it? But anyway, it was so outrageous fortune. What about that? This is like one of the most well known pictures of the Maori battalion. I think when they were in Italy, um, when I put that up because of all the kind of contested areas of Maori identity into the national being, um, the things that sort of really seem to be entrenched. Uh um [00:55:00] uh, rugby. So the kind of sport that seems to be a valid Maori identity in the national scheme. Um, and war, anything to do with war and fighting in the army. Um, and particularly the Maori battalion is very revered, um, in terms of the kind of the greater kiwi. And I always find that kind of interesting what that's about, Um, but definitely that put that in about Maori culture, and you can't see that, but that's Pavlova, and I always sort of don't I don't quite [00:55:30] know whether I'm asking people about kiwi culture, but is the kiwi fruit or the Pavlova or the ice cream container? Yeah, Ok, have I got to hurry up? Oh, OK. Um, so these are the kind of three pictures I use about haka. This one, I say is that Kiwi culture Maori culture What? Everyone is always pretty clear. That's Maori culture. I put that one up. Is that Kiwi culture? Maori culture that often gets? Oh, no, no, no. That's Kiwi culture. You know, everyone's [00:56:00] pretty sure about that. And then I put this one up. Now, is that Kiwi Culture Maori? This is the This is the black first who, by the way, are four times the consecutive world champions, one after the other. Even when the NZR if you cut their competition, they still won. Um And so this is them performing a hacker. And when I ask people, is that Kiwi culture? Maori culture? What? And there is a resounding silence. No one knows. Oh, my God. Where to put that? Um so that's always a kind [00:56:30] of interesting one about haka. When is it owned by Kiwis? When is it not? And what does that kind of mean? What's the difference? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Well, let's see. This is this is the kind of stereotype of hacker that it's a man's form, and that's just totally bullshit. But the particular hacker that's used all the time is yeah. Um, that Kiwi culture bro town. Hm. Um, that in New Zealand [00:57:00] that chilli. The beers DB so no, no. Is that flight of the concourse? Is that is that Kiwi culture that always gets a bit of people discussing stuff? What about that is the hero parade. And you know, the surprising thing when you start putting this picture up is that there's a kind of a collection of Maori and and it's this whole Kiwi tribe called, um oh, [00:57:30] will immediately say no. That's not Kiwi culture. That could be anywhere. That could be San Francisco da da da da da Um, yeah. So the tribe often speak up at that at that picture. My tribal parameters of the tribal got really enhanced over the holidays. I don't know why, but I just started seeing them everywhere. What about that one? You know, having a is that Kiwi culture? So all these kind of things Is that [00:58:00] because, you know, New Zealand is middle earth? Haven't you heard? Is that culture? There were Japanese people I had heard who actually really believed that the were a Maori tribe. No shit. No shit. Believe that I was like, Oh, my goodness. Rugby jerseys to take is that kiwi culture? Uh, that's the geyser in, and often you'll find that the most uncontested pictures are the natural pictures. So the ones that are just off the land and in a way that makes the most [00:58:30] perfect sense is that Kiwi culture that always sort of shuts all the white people up. They don't usually want to make a call either way, when that picture comes up, um, the Gumboot uh, this is the Kiwi batch, and it's very interesting when I ask people. Is that Kiwi culture? Often it's like, Yes, yes. And how many people have a batch? It's like, 02. That's right. [00:59:00] Yeah, well, the historic aspect is really important because it's sort of validate. You've been here for a long time, just like what you're saying. So the whole holiday batch thing is passed down from family to family. Yeah, no. Yeah. So the whole batch thing, what is that? Is that Kiwi culture and and interestingly, is that I think that that's [00:59:30] that's becoming a kind of a mythology because so few people actually have that and part of their family anymore. But, um, like it's not like I want you on the it's, but I kind of It's like when you actually go on holidays to be, Yeah, and then you do a clean thing. I think I think it's [01:00:00] it's like the way that you choose to have your recreation. And what is what is it that your family choose to recreation? Time is a real good indicator to get people talking about that kind of stuff. All that kind of stuff. Yeah, I think the family or, like, you know, the amount of or, [01:00:30] you know, yeah. So that's and then the last one I put in was this, um which is the is the Chinese government in the Dunedin in, um, and apparently it's under real threat of being removed because they're running out of money and the council won't. Doesn't want to fund it anymore. Um, and, um, so I'm interested in what [01:01:00] people say about that kind of stuff. Um, so that's kind of just the cultural stuff that I've been doing. Um, and that's all I think. I've got time to talk about. There's heaps, more stuff there to think about. But like I say, this group is kind of over and above the the kind of average, um, but one thing that I will say, um, in in doing the research, the privileged research project that we've found that's been really quite surprising is there is a lot less Deni because all the international literature tells you that white people are gonna deny this shit. They're gonna deny [01:01:30] it till the cows come home. And there's a little bit of that here. But by and large, I find people in their heart of hearts they very fucking about what we're talking about. They understand it, you know, And, um and I've had a lot of them come up to me later, and they've said, You know what? That is so true. It's so true. And it's so important that we start talking about that stuff. There's been a lot of that, you know, like, I was surprised. Like I thought, Oh, yeah, they're all gonna be assholes, and you get the occasional one, you know, Um, but by and large, I found a lot less denial than I thought. [01:02:00] Yes, and predominantly women and predominantly young. But there have been a couple of men, but generally they're younger people, um, and and also they're, um they're quite professionally oriented. So and I mean this is a key part of culture, right? So a key part of culture when they meet each other was the first thing they asked, What do you do? You know, so their work life, their professional life is incredibly important to who they think they are. And so so often we think, Oh, you got to know the treaty and you say, Oh, it's because it's [01:02:30] the country you want to live in And it's the this and the that that don't mean shit to them. It don't mean shit to whatever happened years ago, Whatever. But if you say to them this understanding this stuff will make you a better professional. They're all in there, you know, because that's and sometimes I think, getting this stuff across, we need to understand what are the cultural sparks for them, right? Because we know the cultural sparks for us, and it's none of that shit. But for them, that stuff is important. So if you can get the information across in the way that their culture tells them is important and [01:03:00] it has to do generally with the profession, they're very interested in money. So if you can make it anything you read in the paper. It's got a cost analysis, right? Anything will tell you how much it's gonna cost. You know that that is a real key feature in their culture. Um, that it's individual. It's about you as an individual. If you can understand some of those basic stuff, it can make the translating the message that much better. Um, one of the last things that I just wanted to mention if people are interested, I can send it to you. Was this delicious little [01:03:30] booklet that, um, someone sent me, uh, from 1985 But it was first published in 1976. And it's this little booklet. It was produced by the Pacific committee of what was then the Department of Labour. Right now, in the seventies and eighties, this country had a huge policy of inviting mainly Pacific migrants, but migrants from everywhere but mainly from the Pacific to come to the country to fill the kind of, uh, the the the workforce shortage that we had because we were having a manufacturing boom. And we needed some, you know, some some [01:04:00] clips to come and fill these sort of bottom runner jobs, factory jobs. And so a lot of Pacific people came here. So what the Department of Labour thought would be a good idea, Um was that they produced little booklets that they would give out to all the different migrant groups that were coming. So they would better understand the people that they were coming into the country. So I found this little booklet that's called understanding. It is fucking delicious people. Um, and one of the things that, um, [01:04:30] I I would just mention it very briefly. And then I'm off go. So it has the contents. And I mean, this is shit that you just never even thought of because it sort of tells you, um, some helpful hints for the work situation. Um, working with social attitudes and Customs Character society. Um, OK, so if you talk about society, these are the most common features in 1986 right? [01:05:00] And what's been really astounding to me is how durable these things have been. So they are not developing. Their culture is not developing shit. It's staying in these very kind of stagnants. These things are still really important. So the importance of economic life. And remember that they're thinking that they're speaking this to Pacific people. So they're trying to think what are Pacific people like? So this booklet kind of tells you a lot about what they think about Pacific people as well as what they think about white people. Right? Um, economic life, religious life. That's pretty much to tell Pacific people. We [01:05:30] don't take the church as seriously as you do. So you know, you need to recognise when you come here that people aren't gonna sort of do that. Um, family life. And they sort of talk about the nuclear family because you people have big families and we have small families, Right? Um, home and school, the councils, political life, how to participate in the elections. Your local MP. Um, OK, then there's the character, right. This is the Parker character. This is the one I just found. It was like, Oh, [01:06:00] man, first name and the character individualistic. The first bit. Yeah. It's like tick, um, individualistic. Next person you meet, run these things, buy them in your head, of course, and just see if they're taking in these little boxes. Individual is that everything in Western society emphasises an individual, right? So that's really, uh, key. Uh, the next thing money minded, [01:06:30] right? So money is really important, um, organised in the sexual. And I mean, part of that is actually trying to talk some of people. You can't come to work late, right? Sort of all that kind of stuff. Um, but one of the things that I found really interesting. You go right to the back with some helpful hints. And there are these kind of idioms that we all that use right that you can sort of work with, Um, [01:07:00] where are they? And they're kind of like they kind of like the little things that you can. Uh, so one of them was, like some of the phrases that parkers would use, right. So one of them is, um, have a shout or give you a shout. And so, you know, so some people wouldn't know what that means. So they're translating all these kind of really common terms, and it really sort of showed me the naturalisation of some of those language. Those discursive patterns that we use, right, um, have a shout. Bring a plate. Was another one, [01:07:30] you know, um, yeah, it was It was really interesting. So if anyone does want that understanding, it's awesome.

IRN: 260
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/kaha_2009_recently_out_participant.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003826
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089120
TITLE: Recently out participant at KAHA 2009 Youth Hui
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 2000s; KAHA Youth Hui (2009); Out There! National Queer Youth Development Project; Porirua; Tapu te Ranga Marae; Wai Ho; coming out; youth
DATE: 24 January 2009
YEAR: 2009
LOCATION: Tapu te Ranga Marae, 46C Rhine Street, Island Bay, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Wai Ho talks to a hui participant who has recently come out.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So this is the second morning of and Yeah, it's about 8. 30 in the morning. How did everyone sleep in a room full of of, like, 50 people. Did you get much sleep? No, not really. Like, No, Everyone was real noisy and stuff. They were snoring and sounded like a truck. So, um, you're from Wellington, And your mom was here yesterday, and [00:00:30] she seems pretty cool with everything. Tell us. Tell us a little bit about that. Well, I just felt like I was, like, gay, So I approached my mom about it, and she was real cool about it. And she tried to get me help and stuff and talk to people. And, well, here I am, basically like she got me here, which is real cool, because she just, like, got me to Larisa and stuff. And this is like a big step for me, which is real cool. Like just meeting other people like me. Yeah, And how old So was this recently, or how old [00:01:00] were you when you thought that you might be gay and you told your mom, um, this was, like, probably December last year, So I was still 15 and yeah, So it's been a couple of months, and I just feel a lot better about myself and more connect with my feelings and stuff. And were you worried about telling her at all? Well, yeah, I was worried. I was especially worried about my dad because just the whole father son thing, but it was it was all good. He doesn't he doesn't mind, which is good too. But [00:01:30] yeah, it was freaky, but it was good. I kind of sent it to her in text, but yeah. And what did you say? I just said, um, I think I might like boys. That's exactly what I said. And how did she respond? Or she responded by saying, um OK, and she just started asking questions about it. Like, Is there one boy in particular all that sort of stuff, you know? Yeah. So she's been really supportive and understanding and yeah, she's a She's a real supportive person, which is really good, [00:02:00] because I kind of need that because I wouldn't be here if I didn't have that support. And so this is your kind of first. This is kind of the first big kind of meeting that you've had with heaps of other young, queer, gay, lesbian, bisexual Trans people. Yeah, like I've actually never met another gay, bisexual, lesbian transsexual person my age. Like or I've just talked to Theresa and she also helped get me here, which was cool. Cool. Thank you very much and enjoy the [00:02:30] rest of car. Thank you. This audio was brought to you by out there. For more information, visit WWW dot out there dot org dot NZ.

IRN: 178
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/educating_gays.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003833
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089127
TITLE: Educating Gays
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Shane Town; Stuart Douce
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Shane Town; Stuart Douce; Wellington; Wellington College; coming out; education; employment; gay; health; homosexual law reform; mental health; programme; school; suicide; teaching; transcript online; youth
DATE: 27 February 1999
YEAR: 1999
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast we explore what it's like to be gay at school - both as a student and as a teacher at the end of the 20th Century.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I often feel sort of left out of things, not simply because I don't have to. I don't get the chance to express myself properly. I don't feel when I'm in class that I can be myself. I'm constantly thinking or constantly checking up myself to make sure I don't spill the beans. Being a queer educator [00:00:30] is like walking a tight rope all the time. Um, because you have to manage other people's insecurities about sexuality. And it might be insecurities about their own sexuality or their insecurities about their interrelationships and interactions with you as a queer educator. And so you are always running a sort of, um, meta cognitive type, um, discourse in your head to manage every situation. And [00:01:00] that sort of thing, um, came out very strongly with the young men that I interviewed in. My thesis is that from the time that they were 13 or 14, even younger for some of them between 10 and 12, they realised that their sexuality was transgressing some idea of normal and that they were on the wrong side of that. That idea of normal and they developed these these ways of managing through talking it through in their own heads. And that was all their private knowledge. They kept all [00:01:30] of that to themselves and keeping that sort of knowledge private and splitting it to a public persona that isn't connected to it is emotionally, um, devastating, I guess. Yeah. When when I was 13, I tried to kill myself. Mhm. Like I've known from when I was about 11, 12 years old. One day [00:02:00] I just cried and cried and cried for hours as this as a mhm. I guess it was because, well, I remember it was because, um there's a guy that I liked and I had a crush on, and I see Well, so So I said I couldn't like, say, Tell anyone or thing which was [00:02:30] really bad. And then when I was 13, um, I actually knew I knew that I was gay and I was really depressed and tried to kill myself. Um, I'd like to think that I'll identify myself as a teacher who happens to be gay, just like a teacher who [00:03:00] happens to be married or a teacher who happens to be heterosexual and single. Um, so, yeah, I. I definitely would like to think that I will be a good role model, um, for gay people, because I certainly wish that I'd had one a gay teacher when I was at school. That was out, and that I could relate to that would have been really beneficial to me. So I would definitely make every opportunity to to to sort of be out in a positive way. Um, in the school? [00:03:30] Definitely. Because, um, it's just so important that that that people are out. Um, particularly when you're dealing with young people. So I've got some decent role models to look up to. Um, I trained as a secondary school teacher at Christchurch in 1984 and I was about 21 I think. Yeah, 21 at the time, Um, and then started at college in 1985 which was the beginnings [00:04:00] of the heated debate in the law reform. And I didn't come out to my students. Um, at first, I, um I ended up being on the front cover of pink triangle for a massage centrefold and the pink triangle, um, magazine itself happened to be exhibited at the Wellington Trade Fair, and it was one of those trade fairs where everybody who visited [00:04:30] it had to go past every single store. And the second point was at that trade fair. There was a huge argument because the gay community had got a stand there that it had misrepresented itself to get and not told the organisers that they were a gay stand. And when it arrived and they set it up, there was a huge outcry to try and get it taken down. And I remember turning around in the May school holidays and looking at today tonight and, um, the debate was, um, being interviewed on there and my face [00:05:00] on the magazine flashed up on National TV or regional TV. I guess it was at that stage like I remember dropping the dinner plate and thinking, Oh, God, this is going to have major implications for me when I go back to school. Um, and of course it did, Um and what's what's now? I can look back quite fondly on, um, but at the time was really rather traumatic. And, um, the students reacted in very different ways. Um, the [00:05:30] students, which I taught, um, didn't really seem to have a problem. My sixth form did they didn't talk to me for three weeks, which made teaching them very difficult, but they eventually sort of came around and and we got on at the younger forms. Um, just used it as as a way of being able to abuse me and challenge the discipline in the classroom and around the grounds. And, um, I could manage some form of control in my classroom, but [00:06:00] I had to sort of put up with daily abuse, Um, from students, which I didn't teach from around the grounds. Um, calling out at Homo. Don't bend over now. Here comes Mr Town type stuff. And, um, that was very difficult because you feel very isolated in your school and and you, um, as a gay teacher, and you often don't feel that you can utilise the channels of discipline that might operate within a school because nobody in a leadership [00:06:30] position has ever stood up and said, This sort of behaviour is not OK. You know, it's not OK to abuse somebody because of their sexuality. And so you tended to try and or I did I. I tried to deal with it on my own, and, um, that probably wasn't the most or the best way of managing that. You know, I pretended that everything was fine in my classroom and around the grounds and so forth, and it sort of raised another issue. I also thought that by coming out in the school that suddenly there'd be lots of young, gay male students who [00:07:00] would come running up to me for support and help. And, you know, I could do the positive gay role model thing, and, um, from a distance, maybe I achieved that. But I don't know who those gay students were. It was never safe enough for them to approach me. And if they were seen with me, it was guilt by association. And then they were at risk. In the school environment themselves, the most difficult thing about being at school is hiding it. It's just it can be really tough sometimes, and [00:07:30] you also encounter a lot of homophobia and people not using the word faggot or queer or gay and not really thinking about using the term. And you can't say, Don't say that. It's not sort of PC to say that sort of thing, because you you're out yourself and you'll and people will mock you. And it's not nice being mocked, I think. I think the big biggest issues that gay people face [00:08:00] in education is is is having a voice and being included in in everyday discussion and activities. Um, so when When, Um, teachers are teaching subjects, Um particularly, like, say, in the health area where they're talking about relationships and marriage and and sex that they include, um, gay people as well, instead of it being a boy girl thing the whole time. Um, like in history lessons, if they if [00:08:30] they mention famous people in history that that were gay Um, just as they mentioned famous people in history that were were straight or you know, which comes about when they are, that they were married or when they whatever. So I think including including the the valuable and interesting history we have on gay people and just making the curriculum far more inclusive of gay people as they are making it inclusive for people of other cultural backgrounds. There are plenty of support groups [00:09:00] in in Wellington, there are heaps, and I'm the only student at Wellington College who goes to any of these support groups the only student in a school of 1250 students. You can't tell me that one out of every 1250 people at this guy that's there are more than that in my school. But but [00:09:30] we don't they don't they don't put up any posters. They don't offer any support, they don't talk about it and and the the classes that they can. We have a health and fourth form, and homosexuality was not mentioned once by any teacher and that entire year, or it was a third of the year. The rest of the year we do, um, [00:10:00] craft work. But in that entire time, the teachers didn't mention being gay at all. And it's fourth form and people are at this age of drinking. They are having sex and they're struggling with their sexuality. And gay students need to to be able to reach out and be normal, because if you if you're different, you do shy away [00:10:30] from things and if you can't get acceptance and if you don't have other people who are like you around you, it's very difficult and it makes you more abnormal, I think some people must go through college and and we'll go through secondary school and that will struggle with your identity because they can't. They don't know anyone else who is like them, [00:11:00] and the only images they see are on television. And some of them, quite frankly, are not very accurate. Um, not all gay men prance around and dresses like they do in Priscilla, Queen of the desert. I mean, not all men are like that. Well, I I saw saw myself at school and also now as a stereotype breaker. Whereas most people think that well, a lot of people think that gay gay guys [00:11:30] are all feminine, carry handbags, dress up as girls clothing and so on. And like, I just won't be a part of that. And people will just see, uh, I'm like he's gay, but he's not feminine. And that just meant a lot to me because I don't I. I knew I wasn't feminine, and I didn't want people thinking that I was in lots of ways. I think it's more difficult how ironic. You know, we've We've got everybody telling [00:12:00] us we've got all that you ever asked for. You've got the homosexual law reform. You've got equal rights under the human rights legislation, and here I am saying, Well, actually, I think it's actually more difficult. One is because you're talking about young males who are, um, seeing lots of images of gay and lesbian people of transsexuals on TV as mayors. Um um, the hero parade, the Sydney Mardi Gras, Um, something like 57 American sitcoms that have all got gay [00:12:30] characters in them. So they are able to see who they are at a much younger age than I could and mastered in when I was growing up. And they also can see all of those possibilities. But at the same time, there's this lovely acceptance out there on the media screen and did it. Everybody's using the word faggot in their school ground. Everybody's beating up on everybody else because they're a, um nobody's sitting them down and talking [00:13:00] to them about homosexuality in terms of its social, its political implications, its context, its identity issues, um, and so they are still carrying it with them. But there's this enormous pressure that they need to identify who they are. And so you've got young gay males knowing at 10 and 11 and 12 that they're gay, which is the difference. I think from when I was going through school, you could delay it really easily until you're 18 or 19 or more easily. Perhaps. I mean, it's it's false to probably compare the experiences, [00:13:30] but it's very different coming out in the nineties, and and whereas people might think it's easier, there's more support. If I was still growing up in Masterton in the nineties, there's no change. It's no different from when I was there, and I think I mean, that's represented in in the fact that schools do not still broach these issues. When when homosexuality is talked about in schools, it's so often talked about within the sexual health curriculum and within [00:14:00] the, um within HIV AIDS education or STD S and oh yeah, and here's homosexuality, you know, In the interviews with the young men that I did, they spoke very strongly about the fact that they left school thinking that they were going to die of AIDS. That was that was the only future that they had, and they expressed that very strongly and so we need sexuality within the curriculum to come out of that context. It needs to be dealt with there, too, because [00:14:30] there are issues about safe sex. But issues of sexual identity are not about sexual behaviour, you know, and we need to start talking about those sorts of things. We don't talk about it much really in in class work. It's not sort of talked about it all, um, the only subject that it is talked about and as classical studies. And that's simply because Romans and Greeks were braving bisexuals. [00:15:00] They they slept with whoever they want wanted to. And and they did have a culture of of sleeping with people of the same sex. And they were. They were just liberated. They didn't have any of this. We're taught that they don't have any of the the Christian pretence, the the whole thing, that sex is a sacred act, and it must be for procreation and that [00:15:30] sex is sinful and we it's discussed in class. We don't, um that that that that wasn't it was a non issue for them. It's and and I sort of agree it. It's, I think it's become too much of an issue in Western society I mean, there are gay people, and there are There are heterosexual people and there are bisexual people and there are transgender people. And there were [00:16:00] There were all sorts of people. So get over it. It's they're just people are they're no different to you. They just have different feelings and emotions being gay and being at Teachers College, I think, is a real advantage. Um, because I've had so much experience of being an unrecognised hated minority group and having to deal with having to deal with that, um, so I guess I'm I'm quite a a human rights activist now, I guess in terms of [00:16:30] just being aware of what other people are facing and and being totally inclusive for everybody um not making assumptions about anybody's background, identity or beliefs, values or experiences, and trying to treat everybody as equal and trying to, um help with, you know, building self esteem from everybody from all walks of life and making them realise that their experiences, whatever they are, are just as valid as anybody else's. [00:17:00] So being gay definitely gives me a big insight into into seeing all those things which I think if you're not gay or not from another cultural background having to fit into, um, some other sort of lifestyle or way of life. Then, um, you never get to face that. So it gives you an interesting outlook. OK? Well, back when I was in sixth form, I was a I was a young I was the youngest [00:17:30] in my form by quite a quite a few months ago. I am. I was getting hassles in class, not about being gay, but just hassles in general. So I went to the guidance counsellor and I really, really depressed and that and had a talk to the guidance counsellor about how I'd been depressed all through all through the summer. I just [00:18:00] like all all through the school holidays. I just slept, slept for about two or three in the afternoon every day. Didn't Yeah, just just depressed in general, right through the through through the holidays. Then at school, I just really depressed. I was getting hassled, So I went to the guidance counsellor and told it. It took me a while to tell him, but I ended up telling him that I wasn't completely straight like I. I told him that [00:18:30] I that I liked girls. But I also liked guys at first because like, it was easier to say that than to just say, I'm I'm gay. Yeah, And he got in contact with with the gay switchboard, and I ended up going to icebreakers. It all happened really quickly. Actually, it was like the Thursday and then the Friday I was I was at icebreakers and I was a bit I was a bit young for for that, but they made an exception, which was really good. I don't [00:19:00] know what I would I would have done if if they had hadn't, uh I When I when I told my my friend about about me being gay, sort of hunted, hinted too to him about it before I told him completely. And then I've I actually told him an English class went and David and he he was OK [00:19:30] with that. And then we had long, long talks about it and that which I can and then my my other friends, I I I told told about it so that they wouldn't hear it through rumours like I found it was better for me to tell them directly than for them to hear a rumour and then come and ask me and all my friends took it. Took it well, yes. No problems. [00:20:00] Yeah. When I told my mom that I was gay I I went sort of went into her room and sat down and we had a talk and I said, Oh, I've got something to tell you And I. I told her that I was that I was gay and she just didn't say anything, which I found really, really scary. And then I sort of I actually started crying because, [00:20:30] like, she just said no reaction or anything didn't say anything. And then and then I was just so annoyed for my for my mum that I just just left left home for the day and came came back later in the night. She sit down with me and see Oh, oh, they're all old and lonely and full of diseases, and I want, and then I don't want to live like that and all that. All that sort of [00:21:00] rubbish and yeah, I just thought Well, thank thanks, Mum, This is me you're talking about. And since since then she's got she's had 44 years to get used to it now, which was pretty cool. I actually went up to the to the hero parade last last weekend, and she actually said to me before the day before I went up. I have a good time up there, which [00:21:30] I thought was really cool. It's very unusual for women to say something like that. I have no idea how I'm gonna handle gay students. Um, when I when I go into schools, I'd probably be very nervous, and it would just just be quite scary to begin with, Um because I I'm quite aware of, you know, if I'm sort of out there as a as a gay role model, then it's quite likely that [00:22:00] that I'll have students come up to me and say, Say, like, I'm gay and I don't know what to do or I'm gay and whatever, Whatever. Um, so I guess III I realise I have to be very careful about what you do do. Um, like, we've been given instructions that we never even allowed to be, um, in a classroom alone with one other student? Um, yeah, we have to. As teachers, we have to be very, very careful about, um yeah, personal [00:22:30] dealings with students. So it will be quite a tricky balance to act. Um, but no doubt I'll I'll learn as I go and and hopefully, um, hopefully it will work good. I think there's an advantage to gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender students to see out gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender teachers. Um, and it took me a while to realise that even though gay students gay male students didn't approach me while I was teaching while I was out, they knew I was [00:23:00] there. And knowing somebody is there and knowing somebody is, um, bouncing around being relatively cheerful and happy and being I hate using the word normal, but, um, is is a really has a really positive effect. It shows that you can live into adulthood, and one of the big issues in New Zealand is youth suicide. And, um, for many gay young gay men, they can't see that they can live into adulthood and be happy. And so, for some, for kids to see [00:23:30] that in school was really powerful and positive. It also sort of raises, um, issues, I guess, about, um, the idea of normalisation. What so many gay and lesbian teachers do is appear to be as normal as possible. Um, and I have a problem with that in some ways because I think that the the idea of normal and that the lack of our school's [00:24:00] ability to manage difference of any sort is is crucial here. And so, like, I could get away being a gay teacher because, you know, I wore trousers. I dyed my hair occasionally, and I had my ears pierced. But, um, I I wasn't overtly camp or effeminate. And, um, although and so there is still with the gay stuff that's coming out now, a total problem [00:24:30] with overt, um, or with the the stuff that confounds gender. Um, I've I've been corresponding with a, um a young boy from the South Island who, um, had real transgender issues, and he was basically almost killed by his peer group. He was physically pushed out in front of traffic. Um, and downstairs, um, because he wants to transgender, [00:25:00] you know, he's 14. He was 14 when he was first having those feelings, and he ended up being home schooled for the rest of secondary schooling. Um, and those transgender feelings are still with him. My question is, why do we have to make, um, why are our schools not able to make themselves safe for students like that? Or, you know, why can those differences not be tolerated? [00:25:30] I definitely think I will end up going out of my way to actively promote, um, gay issues. It's almost an addiction. I have, I guess, Um, I just can't help myself. Every time I see some anti gay letter in the letters to the editor, I'll be writing in a reply. Um oh, I. I think it'll be a wonderful opportunity to to to promote, um, inclusiveness and a better understanding of gay people because we're, you know, we're still fighting a battle, [00:26:00] and the more people that fight the battle, you know, the more we can achieve. And I think education and young people is a good place to start, particularly from my experience, um, working with gay people through icebreakers, as it's those people that need the help the most. And they're not actually getting it because they're the ones that face the suicidal thoughts and the depression and all these other issues when they're already going through a million and one changes through adolescence. So to me, they're they're the most critical people to educate, particularly [00:26:30] the young people who who have same sex feelings because they are the they are the people in need as I see it.

IRN: 196
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/discharge.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003834
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089128
TITLE: Discharge
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Darren Graham
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Darren Graham; New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF); Royal New Zealand Air Force; Wellington; employment; family; homophobia; homosexual law reform; human rights; military; programme
DATE: 17 January 1999
YEAR: 1999
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Darren Graham talks about being discharged from the Royal New Zealand Air Force on the grounds that he was a practicing homosexual.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: The letter to my mom and dad from the Air Force, saying it is with regret that I must confirm that your son Darren was discharged from the Royal New Zealand Air Force on the 22nd of May 1985 on the grounds that he admitted to being a practising homosexual. Being in the closet in the military was extremely difficult to actually associate [00:00:30] with anyone else who was homosexual. You had to be away from the military area you couldn't portray. We worked. It had to be kept quiet. There was always a paranoia about being seen by someone else that you worked with and being seen anywhere near where you were working in the military areas. And being out in public in some jobs in uniform was hard as well. [00:01:00] Because you're always thinking who will see me and what will I think? Will I come and talk to me? What will the other people I'm with from the military think it made it very, very difficult. It also meant you couldn't let anyone know where you lived. If you were living in the barracks, you couldn't take anyone back to your place. You had to If you wanted to spend time with someone, you had to go to their place if it was possible or somewhere else, if it was possible and it made it very, very difficult. You [00:01:30] also had to watch what you're saying. You had to sit there and portray the straight heterosexual image. If someone made a joke about homosexuals, you had to laugh at them as well, which was laughing at yourself when you're being insulted. Um, if someone was talking about what they were doing with their partner the night before, you had to sit there and laugh and try and participate in the competition to fit in [00:02:00] or in the conversation to fit in. It makes it it made it extremely difficult. You had to keep entirely two separate lives, although you would meet other people when you were out socialising in homosexual or gay venues and you would realise that you knew them from somewhere. And then suddenly the next day you would see them at breakfast sitting in the mess hall on the Air Force base, which made it extremely [00:02:30] difficult because you knew the person and they didn't want to know you at work. But when you were outside work, they would be quite happy to talk to you. And it's just knowing that you know someone and you can't talk to them and they have exactly the same situation as you. I become very good friends with someone who and when I first met them, I knew them through church I was involved with. I didn't know that [00:03:00] he was gay, and sometime later, my time in the Air Force. When I was on a training course, a another gay friend in the Air Force told me that he was gay, which made it very, very difficult because I felt my found myself attracted to this person as a person who I could get into a relationship with and spend some time with. And I had my own personal rule that I had [00:03:30] set in, that I was not going to do anything on an Air Force base or with another person from the military as a way of keeping my life separate, which I'm afraid to say, I had to relent on that little promise to myself, and I had a very, very short fling with this person. If you call it a fling. I, um, had well, it would [00:04:00] have been a two day relationship with this person and become very, well, very attracted to the person. However, we were both stationed at different air force bases, which drew us apart to show affection to each other. You you can't show any affection in the public areas. The only time that we [00:04:30] had together in his room, which was a separate room, but next to rooms of other people, you could show affection and that your room was a private area. But you couldn't if you were in public if you were in the mess eating. If you were out walking around the base, you had to portray yourself as just being a friend, talking [00:05:00] about something you couldn't talk about, things that you might have had in common for fear of someone else overhearing it. You couldn't touch each other. You if you were in the Airman's Club drinking, you had to be extremely careful in what you said and the way you've Basically, if you had too much of a good time, people would either see it or hear it. So you had to either be off the [00:05:30] Air Force base where you at somewhere, that no one else was around from the Air Force or entirely within a room where no one else could possibly see you or hear you. It was difficult in the military. I felt happy within myself about my lifestyle. I found it very difficult to lead two lifestyles. I had to be very careful [00:06:00] that the two didn't cross over. But I felt happy with myself that I was a homosexual. I was leading a happy life. I had a job that I enjoyed. It just involved a major part of my life and that I had to live sometimes and breathe my job. At other times, I had time out from that where I could go and associate with other gay people, go to gay clubs [00:06:30] and enjoy letting my hair down and being totally myself with the way I wanted to do things, not having to sit there and behave perfectly straight 24 hours a day, seven days a week. I had time out from that and that was time that I could get out and be part of the real world and 1984 85 period, New [00:07:00] Zealand was going through a private members bill that had been introduced into Parliament, which was the homosexual law reform bill. And it was introduced to decriminalise homosexual activity so that we couldn't be sent to prison for committing homosexual acts. And people like our landlords couldn't be sent to prison for renting a flat to a homosexual person. So during this time I had a petition that was organised [00:07:30] by a Christian coalition against the private members Bill. The petition was presented to me to include my signature, and I initially refused to sign it. It was represented a day or so later by one of my superiors, and at that stage he insinuated that I should sign it for my own good. So I had been thinking about it, and in the end, I thought, [00:08:00] Well, I've got to sign it. And primarily my feelings for signing it were so that I didn't have an accusation made against me, that I might be gay in the military, And that really did worry me because if I was found out to be gay in the military, I would be kicked out at that stage. I signed the petition and then spent a day or two thinking about what I had done and how I could [00:08:30] get my signature off the petition again because I didn't feel right with signing it because, after all, I was gay and I didn't want to be fighting something that was going to benefit me. So I actually sat down and I phoned the base padre who was a multi denominational minister and asked if I could see him. I needed to talk to him. So I went down [00:09:00] and talked to him about my feelings At the time of being presented with the petition against the homosexual law reform, I said how I had had it offered to me and that they wanted me to sign it, and at that stage he basically assured me that I could talk to him in confidence and when I did, I said, Well, I am gay [00:09:30] and I am not happy signing the petition and I have signed it and now I have to struggle with the fact that I've signed it. I don't believe the petition is right and that I believe the law reform issue is right and I'm struggling with having signed it and not being able to refuse to sign it in an environment where if I didn't sign it, I would be gay and everyone around me would chastise [00:10:00] me for being gay and I could lose my job and wanted to know how to cope with that situation. He basically reassured me that I would be OK and that one signature wouldn't matter in something like that. And from then I thought, Well, OK, I'll accept that. And I just carried on with thinking about going back to work the next day [00:10:30] and that it made me think a lot about myself and a lot about where I was and the fact that I had talked to someone and I felt a little bit better and I carried on back to work the next day. Until then, I was asked to report to the person in charge of our side of the operational Squadron and was confronted with the issue that I was practising homosexual and I was going to be discharged from the military [00:11:00] Fake puffs bender as Bender when I rang home to tell them that I was out of the Air Force and where I was currently living and give them the phone number. My father answered the phone and I said hello to him, he said straight [00:11:30] away to me. We've received a letter from the Air Force saying that you're a practising homosexual. Is that true? I just said one word to him. I said Yes and my dad said, I'll get your mother and drop the phone receiver in which the noise of it crashing on the desk and I waited until my mother came on the phone. And at that stage I talked to Mum. I was very lucky with Mom and that she was extremely understanding right [00:12:00] from the start. She had asked some time before, when I was actually on leave one Christmas time from the Air Force if I was a homosexual, because one of my friends was and my mother was extremely accepting in that issue, I think, probably probably because one of her best friend's son was openly gay and she had dealt with the whole process of her best [00:12:30] friend going through it. So Mom was extremely supportive and talkative about it, and today they are both my parents accept that I am gay, my father I think in so much as doesn't accept my lifestyle. However, he accepts that I'm still a son and mom is great about it. She doesn't have any problems. We just don't tend to talk about it. [00:13:00] I didn't sue at the time because there was a law Air Force law that stated my position. It was also a lower of the lane that see that it was illegal to be a homosexual or to carry out homosexual acts. And during [00:13:30] the time of the law reform, when it was legalised, there was still the position of discrimination. And once the human rights bill was passed, I didn't sue because I wasn't interested in stepping back to go back into the military. I had been through that experience in my life. I had more to achieve by continuing with my life as it was, and I couldn't see a point in suing for that. I had achieved [00:14:00] what I wanted to achieve out of my life and had direction of where I was going, and it would have been a step backwards, as well as publicity that was not required.

IRN: 222
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/loyal.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003835
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089129
TITLE: Loyal
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Peter Gordon; Stephen Rainbow
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Peter Gordon; Stephen Rainbow; Wellington; family; parenting; programme
DATE: 3 July 1999
YEAR: 1999
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: A group of men talk about coming out after marrying and having children.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Two things she said. First one was that the marriage could not go on, and I respected her decision there. Uh, I wasn't going to continue to live a sham. Um, the second thing was that was, by way of empathy from her. Was that my God, You must have been going through sheer hell. I'm a very [00:00:30] logical person. Um, I'm one of those annoying people who always just have one piece of paper on their desk. Everything for me is filed away in little filing cabinets. Uh, and it only comes out when I need to use it. So I guess my my life and my way of working are very similar. So within the marriage, when I was when I was at home with the family, I was there. I was their father. I was, you know, the the the doting parent and all that sort of [00:01:00] thing. But when I was in a situation where I could be myself, then I was so Yeah, uh, I'm very good at Compartmentalising things. I can put things into slots and leave them there. And they don't overflow from one to the other in the early seventies. Once I had graduated from university. I knew full well that I was a homosexual. I did not know how to express myself. I didn't know what that was. I [00:01:30] was attracted quite openly to other men. But I did not know how to communicate that attractiveness for fear of making the wrong sort of contact or becoming rejected even if the person wasn't straight. Um, I found myself associating with people, other guys who I assumed were gay because we only ever assume this of each other. It was never sort of spoken [00:02:00] about as it would be these days and eventually found myself being propositioned by someone at the age of 23. I was still, actually, for all intents and purposes, a virgin. So I hadn't been with either a woman or a man. And I had got sick of it by this stage and thinking, right, I'm going to do something about it. So I did. But the price that I paid is that I didn't enjoy it. Um, there was no violence, [00:02:30] but the relationship was terribly one sided And just thinking No, this is not for me, I. I met up with a woman whom I had met two years previously, and we actually became very close friends to the extent that months later, we announced our engagement. Um and I suppose what it was for, what it was for me was that I had been so put off by this other thing that [00:03:00] I didn't like what I had experienced to the extent that I wasn't a I wasn't didn't feel confident about going out and finding the same thing, but with somebody else. But the fact that Jodie came along the woman I was going to marry, um I suppose my friendship with her grew so strong that in a way, I I was replacing, um, my true self, with some with something else that had just come [00:03:30] along. Now, I was aware of the decision I was making, um, to the extent that I went through with it, to the extent that we had two Children, I guess I first knew I was gay when I was 15. Um, that was when I was living in the UK before we came to New Zealand. Then I we came to New Zealand when I was 16, and it was in the days of the rugby, [00:04:00] racing and beer mentality, So I sort of suppressed it quite a lot. Although I did have the, um the very first love of my life, if you guess when I was about 18, and then, uh, I went back to the UK for the, you know, the usual holiday that people have. And I had another couple of flings over there, nothing very serious, but, uh, came back to New Zealand when I was 24 again to the the same sort of mentality, [00:04:30] uh, living in Dunedin, which is, uh, in those days, I guess a very unsophisticated time. And I decided that there was only one thing that I could do, and that was to actually get married and to conform. Um, so I did. I met a wonderful woman. Uh, I since found out that she was actually abused as a child, not sexually, but I guess she appreciated the female side in me and [00:05:00] felt comfortable with me. Whereas she wasn't comfortable with other men, necessarily. We were married for 30 years and have three sons. The eldest is No. 30. Uh, the youngest is 25. Well, I think that, uh, because I knew that I was different, and part of that a big part of it was my sexuality. I was attracted to a woman who was from a different cultural background, and, uh, that made for a very interesting relationship. [00:05:30] Uh, I also hoped, I guess, in retrospect, that that would mean that there was room, uh, for some, um, the exploration of my homosexual side. And as it transpired, and as kids started to come along, that turned out not to be the case. But I think at the back of my mind, always was the hope that I would be able to find a a stable relationship. But one, where there was the possibility that my homosexual side would not have to be shut out completely. [00:06:00] Um, as it turned out, that was not, uh, a practical option. And my understanding is that that is not, uh, an unusual situation. Um, and that, um, bisexual men often look, uh, to a single female partner with whom they have kids, But they also hope to be able to have relationships with men. And I think that creates an extraordinarily difficult situation. Certainly it didn't work in my case. Um But having said that, uh, I have three marvellous [00:06:30] Children as a as a result of that relationship. And, um, we have very positive relationships with both my former partner, the mother of my kids and my Children. I just began to feel that I was living a lie. I couldn't explain it as such, but, I mean, I was I was going [00:07:00] out. My my wife was out a lot. I was out a lot, so we were fairly independent types, but And I was going to gay venues, gay parties, meeting up with gay people and decided that if this was going to be found out, I would rather it came from me telling them than from somebody else telling them I felt that to be blunt, to come out, say it straight, be honest, was the only way. [00:07:30] I don't like to look upon it as a lie. It was something that I committed myself to. Um I suppose that it was more of a sham than a lie because I was I was deceiving myself, but I don't think I was lying to anyone. It would never became an issue. Um, if I was asked and Certainly when I was married, [00:08:00] there was lots of suggestion that he's gay. Is your husband gay? Um, my Ex-wife was able to say at the time, Of course he's not. Um, I gather that that was based on what sexual experiences we had and that they were regular and many. And, um, as far as I'm concerned for me, it wasn't, um, [00:08:30] a true expression of me, and I suppose you could look upon it as a lie. Uh, I made my beard and I. I had to lie on it. I. I felt quite secure in the way I was living until such time as I began to mix with different people. So I called everybody home for a dinner party [00:09:00] and, um, told him over coffee. The most difficult words I think that I've ever spoken in my life. I just simply said I am gay and I was watching the the boys and my wife. The boys, I suspect, knew, but my wife didn't. She was absolutely devastated and having spoken the words, I couldn't take them back [00:09:30] and actually didn't know what to do. Anyway. We continued living together for a while, but separate rooms and eventually she just said she couldn't take it anymore. She couldn't cope strangely enough, the when she was she was telling everybody they a lot of them came back and said, 00, we knew that. We just assumed that [00:10:00] you and Peter had come to an arrangement which, of course, was even worse for her, uh, to think that, you know, everybody around us knew and she was the one who didn't. Well, I was always a great one for being depressed and, um, opting out of life basically, uh, not going to work, not doing anything. Um, it was my way of just withdrawing into myself for comfort. [00:10:30] It had become a predominant behaviour. To the extent that, um it was suggested that I seek professional help. There was a lot of emotional drain. I did not want to give up the security that I had and the love that I had for nothing. At the same time, there was the irresistible pull of wanting to do something or be something that you had never had the opportunity to do to be [00:11:00] before, which was the essential self saying, putting its handing up, hand up and saying Hi. Naively. I thought when I told them that things would just carry on the way they always had been that, um they would accept it, Uh, that my wife would simply say, Oh, OK. And we would just carry on being the way we always had been, except that I wouldn't have this fear of being found out. Um, in retrospect, I I That [00:11:30] was a stupid thing. It was extremely naive of me to think that that could happen. Although it does happen in some marriages. Um, I, I have a number of friends who, um, are openly gay, and they're still living with their their wife. Um, that didn't happen in my case. Um, my wife is a very strong, independent person, and I guess she felt that I had let her down rather than been living a lie. [00:12:00] Um, perhaps I hadn't been completely honest with her, which I hadn't, of course, because I hadn't told her that I was gay. But the the inter reaction between us for all those years of marriage, really to me, I wasn't I didn't I wasn't forcing myself to do this. It was just something that I wanted to do I feel that, uh, my sexuality, like so much in my life, and, um, I suspect in others as well. However, [00:12:30] I can but talk for myself, uh, has been about starting off with some fairly grand ideals. And mine were to do in terms of sexuality with the ability, uh, to express my sexuality. Uh, basically, when I felt like it, and the whole process of maturation and growing older is about, um, uh, it would seem constraining one's instincts and, uh, one's natural, uh, feelings to, uh, in order to have [00:13:00] a functional life. And that's really what, uh, married life turned out to be for me. Uh, and I'm not sure how long. Um, I could have gone on suppressing the homosexual part of myself. Um, but it it created, uh, obviously, um uh, huge intentions. When, uh, one person in a relationship, namely me, wanted to be more, uh, experiential with regard to sexuality. And the other person wanted [00:13:30] to have a a committed relationship. And obviously that's a very difficult recipe to, uh, maintain. I didn't think it took a lot of courage at the time because it was just something that I had to do. But since talking to a whole lot of new friends that I have every they all say, Oh, gosh, you were really, really brave, Very courageous to do that sort of thing. Um, at at your age after being married for all that length of time. Uh, but courage was something that I really didn't think [00:14:00] about. Uh, it was just something that I had to do for my own sense of well being. For I thought I guess naively the, uh, well being of the family as well. And that if they knew what the situation was, then they couldn't be surprised or hurt, not really thinking that I would be hurting them. When I came out with a statement, I think that [00:14:30] people would say Yes, there was a deception. There was a lie. It was a convenient sham. But at the same time, I don't think I had any other choice when I reflect back. So selfish Yes, in so far as that look, I had to leave a marriage with two Children and, um, as as a liable parent. I think that I'm [00:15:00] doing penance for my for my newfound sexuality because I had to have had to pay a liable parent contribution. Uh, at the same time, if people might have thought about it as being selfish, Um, my Ex-wife and two daughters have been utterly accepting of my of my decision. Um, not necessarily. Immediately the the Children were far [00:15:30] too young to understand. They were preschoolers. Um, but in later life, yes, there is a complete acceptance, uh, from them and their mother about their father. Um, to the extent that I'm even welcome in their home any time, Well, I think that if I were, uh, totally honest about it, I have always wanted kids because I think part of coming to terms with my sexuality was a A a broad questioning of, um, of the whole purpose of life. And I think for [00:16:00] uh, many people, of course, Children, family, those traditional kinds of constructs give meaning to their lives, I guess. Um, subconsciously, I, I must have been aware that we're right to lead a gay lifestyle at some stage, uh, and to live in a same sex relationship as I now do that that the kids would give a foundation and a meaning which I might otherwise lack, and that has certainly turned out to be the case. And I would say that the kids are probably the most important thing in my life, and I pride [00:16:30] myself on being a very good father to them. The first public announcement, I guess if that's what you want to say, is at a a huge gay dinner, which was, um, put on by a gap, which is the Gay and professional association here in Wellington. And I was enjoying myself as I normally always do when I'm out and the suddenly came up and said, And now we have Peter. He has just come out and told his family, and he shoved the microphone [00:17:00] under my nose, being used to being up on stage and talking and running seminars and courses. Uh, it it still phased me a little, but I then just went ahead and told the whole congregation or the whole group rather not congregation that makes it sound like a church. They I told the whole group, and the reaction I got from people afterwards was that they came up and they sort of, you know, that gave me a hug or touched me on the shoulder and said, Hey, that was [00:17:30] really brilliant. You know, I've often thought about this, but I would actually never get married again. Be it to a man or a woman. I've been in a relationship now over eight years, and I have no wish to marry my partner. Um, I don't believe that we need a piece of paper to signify that we need to stay together as a couple for the rest of our lives. What we need to stay together as a couple [00:18:00] for the rest of our lives is our devotion and love for each other and the declaration of that on a constant and regular basis. And we certainly do do that. Marriage to me is irrelevant in in the sense of the communication of love and the expression of that I was married once, Um, the relationship side of things in terms of living and being and sharing it with somebody else is probably not too dissimilar [00:18:30] in terms of legal rights. However, I suppose if gay people were given the opportunity to to declare themselves in a relationship which had some legal recognition, and that doesn't necessarily involve a marriage as such then, um, that would provide certain safeguards, particularly for the the continuity, uh, of a relationship and the recognition of that relationship by other [00:19:00] people in the community. I should have been much more honest with the family very much earlier on. However, That's also offset by the fact that had I have done it like 20 years ago, when the family were very young, it would have been very difficult for my Children. Um, I'm just I'm not saying that I was a martyr to carry on within the situation. That's not it at all. But, um, I do know of a lot of families where [00:19:30] the parents have split up, and that is very, very hard on the Children. And I didn't want to put that on to my sons. Now that they're older, they weren't living at home anyway. They were independent. I felt that it was time that my time had come. If you like, I was no longer it. It was no longer necessary for me to be the parent. As such, I would much rather be in the situation that I currently am with my sons [00:20:00] in that whilst I I am and always will be Dad. We're actually friends. Well, I think the main thing that I have got out of this experience is that if I'd stayed in a marriage, I would never have had to learn the skills that I've had to learn in terms of looking after kids on my own. And, uh, I am now a far better father. Uh, because I look after the kids on my own, I'm a far better cook. Uh, I actually have to spend, uh, devoted time with the kids in a way which, frankly, being in a marriage, [00:20:30] uh, was quite easy to escape from because there was always, uh, someone else said to look after the kids. And, of course, when the kids are young, they do tend to gravitate gravitate towards the mother anyway, So for me, I have to say it's been incredibly fulfilling. I would actually say I'm a very good father. Um, and I feel that if anything ever happened, for example, to my, uh to the mother of my kids, I'd be able to bring up the kids quite competently on my own. And I feel therefore a far more, um, rounded, human being as a result of the experiences I have had, uh, since, [00:21:00] uh, leaving that marriage. The path that I took to become me, um, was fraught with, um Well, it certainly wasn't a straight road to bliss. Um, and nobody is whether they be gay or straight. But when I look back, I can think I can see that. Yeah, maybe I should have done it sooner, but I chose not to, [00:21:30] um, there was always an inner fear to to be sprung, I suppose, Um and it just didn't feel comfortable. Once I had come out, I there was just this humongous relief, uh, a sense of relaxation and comfort with oneself that was just, um, override any override. Anything else? Um, maybe I was a bit [00:22:00] later in finding it than others, but, um, I'm happy with my development as me. I don't regret what happened. The other thing is, is that I have two wonderful daughters whom I adore, and they adore me. And there's there's no, um, blame on their part toward me about the decision that I had to make. Uh, it [00:22:30] has been they have accepted the reality of it. Um, they don't live in close association with me. But when we are together, we have an amazing time. As I consider myself can only ever be a friend to them, although they insist on calling me dead.

IRN: 223
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/johnny_and_peter.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003836
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089130
TITLE: Johnny and Peter
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Johnny Croskery; Peter Kooiman
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; 1990s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Johnny Croskery; Peter Kooiman; Wellington; drag; gay; programme; relationships; transgender
DATE: 15 August 1999
YEAR: 1999
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Johnny Croskery and Peter Kooiman talk about their relationship - how they met and their life together. Johnny passed away on 19 April 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I can't remember the exact date, but Peter and I met. It would have been in the mid to late fifties. I was working at the D IC. Um, in 1958 that we met John. Yeah. 1958. Um, I was working at the D IC, um, window dressing. And I saw this wonderful looking man walk past, uh, tall, good looking blonde hair. I thought, Oh, I'd like to know him. Um, so I thought, Now, how can I get to so eventually I thought, [00:00:30] Well, um, nothing ventured, nothing gained. So I stepped outside, um, on the pretext of checking the windows and start to talk to him. Well, um, I used to when I I used to work at Midland Hotel. That was in at Midland Park. And I used to be a porter for a while, and I had to, um, take the money to the bank. And that's how I used to walk past John's windows every day. But I didn't on John. I didn't take any notice of him. Rather [00:01:00] rather sad that so I had to do my utmost to be noticed. I think I've been doing it ever since Well, when we first bought a house, we the people next door, actually, some people in the area were especially next door were quite funny because someone too. I mean, they quite obvious. I mean, John looked deaf when I looked different, and then we couldn't be tried to be too, but because [00:01:30] that was not us, anyway. I mean, we've never been in the closet. We always been what we what we are. But I think I think people get used to I mean, my my attitude has always been Well, I'm not going away. So you better get used to me, and it works because they do. They really do get used to you. Yeah. And I mean, having been there so long now, well, we've probably been there longer than anyone around. We've been there 37 years. Yes, [00:02:00] it's a bit like Coronation Street, because quite a lot of gay people in the area now to what? Well, I mean, we were the only ones when we first went there, but now there's quite a lot next door to us. Used to be two story place. I used to have this old guy living there and he used to say it's going to be bloody Queer Street. All those bloody queer living here. They got that way. They didn't. Not too long after. Yes, he probably would have died of shock if he'd been there. Now see what there is? Yeah, [00:02:30] seven hours we had, like most people. I guess we we've had our share of cats over the years. But then I I thought, Well, it would be rather nice to have a dog and I. I looked through books to see if I could find a dog which was rather awesome and quite camp looking. So a Maltese came up, and I thought, Now, this is just divine. So it had to be a Maltese. So I asked a friend of mine who was a vet at the time, um, where [00:03:00] you could get it. So he put me in touch with somebody where we could get Maltese and and we got, um, this little we so and, uh, we thought, Well, it's rather unfair just to have one. So we got another, um, to keep it company. So this was the start of it. Never look back. The first one, we had her name was Mercy and she was tiny wee thing and she was deformed. She she has something wrong with her back [00:03:30] legs, and we didn't know because we never had a one of those types. Doctor was in bleeding and, um, we had to take, She had to have a big operation at Messy, but it didn't fix it, but she was. She died when she was 14, wasn't a job, and she used to walk on the font legs. You stick a bottom and her back legs in the air and run along on her front legs, even up the path to the lamp to the up to the gate and and the letter box. And, um, she just managed amazingly, you [00:04:00] know, for for 14 years, the only problem she really had was in eating because she'd fall into the food box. So she she was sort of rather top heavy with with having done that. She was quite bulky up the front department, you know? So she had to be hand fed, but she lasted. She lasted till 14, and it was wonderful, um, and and we the her her little friend that we had He he died earlier on his name was he was a bit of a wimp, but, um, he died [00:04:30] and and then we got another couple. Uh, then a friend of ours died, and we inherited his four, which took us up to seven. So it was rather chaotic, but wonderful. People think you're quite mental, having so many dogs. I mean, especially, they sleep on on a bed. And I got four, to sleep on John's bed and the rest sleep on my bed. So instead of getting up during the night, lifting him off to bed, I made them for them to walk up. [00:05:00] Yes. Um, not many people really know. They They're very good. Um, even our next door neighbour. She never knew. We had so many until we told her she thought we had two, but, uh, she was, uh, rather amazed at having so that when she found out we had so many. They are absolutely wonderful when you get religious people calling because we just let them all come downstairs and we say, Kill, kill, kill. And there there's five. Well, five now or six or seven they used to take to the front door [00:05:30] And as you can probably imagine seeing, uh, that many dogs at the door. It used to make it, uh, move around a bit, and it was rather noisy, and it sounded rather gruesome. So, um, the, uh, Jehovah's Witness and Mormons beat a hasty retreat, which was great. Like John said, The dogs are like our family. I mean, we if you know, people come up and see us and said, I like to be your dog when I come [00:06:00] back a game. How many people say that? Because they live in heaven. I mean, it gets spoiled a lot. I mean, we don't I mean, we don't go on holiday to get if you do go on holidays to get it, John stays home. I stay home because we don't want to put the dogs in a kennel. And I mean, it'd be too expensive anyway, but that would die if you leave them with somebody else because they're so spoiled. Yeah, well, I have I haven't had a holiday, I think probably for 16 years, [00:06:30] because I wouldn't leave the dogs, um, with anybody or in kennels. So no, they're they're our life, Really, I guess. Or part of it. A big part of it. Well, I think they make a lot of difference, because it's great to come home, you know? I mean, when you've had a lousy day at work, Peter and you come home, they're always screaming their heads off to get to you, aren't you, Aren't they? You've got to lie on the floor so they can all kiss you at once and things like that. I mean, it's quite a mad house. [00:07:00] Hm. The time I think about growing, I won't say growing old. But growing older is, um when I see my brother's grandchildren and he is younger than I am, and I think Oh, my God, I could be a grandparent too. God forbid. This is why I think it's wonderful to have dogs. I mean, they only last for about 16 or so years. Then you get on to a new lot. You know, it does help keep you young. [00:07:30] And of course I mean, there are other awful sort of practical things which you've got to think about as growing older as things like painting the house and all that sort of nasty nonsense and climbing up ladders it's not quite as easy as it used to be, but I guess we'll manage. Yeah, yeah, I think that I think that's about the only thing that you think about, um and growing older. I think I You don't have the The the good thing about growing older is you don't have that desperation to Oh, well, [00:08:00] I must go out tonight because it's Saturday. I mean, I think I think young people do have that. I mean, I probably did, too, when I was younger. Um, if there wasn't a party on a Saturday night, it was the end of the world. But you you don't feel that as you get older. I think I think it's a good way to be, too. Yeah, well, I find if you get older, you sort of quite happy to stay home and watch TV or read a book or listen to music. And you know, you don't sort of I mean, when we are invited to go out, sometimes you look at one and said, Oh, hell, we can't [00:08:30] be bothered trying to find an excuse. Yeah, no, there's always seems to be plenty to do. I mean, I I'm always amazed at people who say they get bored because I just don't find that there's time to get bored. There's really so much to do. Another thing is people think because you're gay. I mean, they quite often ask me, I think you have made dinner parties or you have parties and, you know, it sort of fascinates me because we couldn't be. We don't know. People think it's one big [00:09:00] social social thing. Yeah, but it's not. No, it's it's all quite ordinary, really. When we first met and start living together and we used to go to parties, things were a bit more difficult because, um, people used to make a, um I hope you don't mind me saying this, John. People used to make a lot of fuss about John, and I used to get a bit jealous because I felt left out. But over the years, you get things changed and you look at things a different way. I [00:09:30] mean, I'd be quite happy. I. I used to say to John, Why don't you go out and enjoy yourself? Because you know, I'm more inclined to stay home and read a book or listen to music, and John used to like going out a bit more. I still do. I still do go out a lot more. I mean, it's really great, because I mean, um, I'm always glad to get home, though, because, I mean, it's, I think it's such a hassle to keep sort of, um, partying until 34 or five in the morning. That's that's really not my scene. But [00:10:00] it's nice. I think you've got to keep putting in appearance every so often because people do seem to think you're dead. If you don't, don't you find that I must be dead then I I'm I'm pretty terrible when people say to me, you know where's Peter? And I said, Well, he's at home Of course. I mean, he's not allowed to come out tonight. This is what I'd say to people, you know, think Oh my God, he tells people I have to stay on. We look after the dogs, and I think they do believe him. [00:10:30] After while Yeah, John is very easy going and nothing up. You know, he doesn't seem to get upset very much about things. Um, I look in the past when I used to be more temperamental than John and I used to dying to have an argument, and he wouldn't, uh, so I used to keep at him nagging at him, and [00:11:00] then he used to lose his temper. But, you know, he seems to sort of take things a little bit more. I'm inclined to get more temperamental, and John quietened me down a lot because of his attitude towards things. And, you know, it's very difficult to to describe somebody's personality. But, um, I think he's got a marvellous personality. He's he got to be because people the way people say things to him sometimes [00:11:30] and the way he looks. So he's got a really broad minded outlook on things. Oh, thank you. That's very kind. I'll tell you something else when I get home. Well, I mean, that's the only way I can describe it, You know? Perhaps. I mean, I don't know how to describe you Otherwise, [00:12:00] yes, well, I'll try and describe you. Um, Peter's great. He's good fun. He's He's good to get on with. He, um, agrees with most things I say, and I think that's probably just to keep the peace because I'm a bit berserk at times. And I think, um oh, I don't think I'm hard to live with, but a bit strange. Perhaps, but, um, I think this probably, um, cuts both ways. Uh, well, I don't think you have to live with, you know? No, not really. I mean, [00:12:30] yeah, And if I don't take any notice of you, I think Oh, here it goes again. Morning. Back to something and a turn off. Yeah. No. All I can really say is that I, I think that that Peter is, um, easy an easy person to to live with. He's He's very obliging, very sweet natured. Um, and that's really all I can say. We get on. Great. What more could you want? [00:13:00] When John asked me to go out with him first, I thought, Oh, he looks he's quite a cute little guy. I you know, But I didn't sort of format and left it on the on the spot. It took me a while to fall. I left with John, but John always fascinated me more than anything else, because the way he used to do it here and the way he was different and it used to fascinate me more than anything else. [00:13:30] Um, and he still does. Oh, how wonderful. I mean, you don't I don't tell him all the time that you know, I. I do really appreciate what he does and how he's still living together. I really, really appreciate it. And I think it's marvellous. Sometimes you might think I'm a bit boring because, you know, I sit and watch TV and fall asleep, but but it's sort of Yeah, Like I said, [00:14:00] I, I really do love John, and I don't know what I would do without him.

IRN: 175
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hotel_homo.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003837
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089131
TITLE: Hotel Homo
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Hamish Allardice
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Hamish Allardice; Travelodge Hotel (Wellington); Wellington; bars; gay; hospitality; hotel; marriage; programme; proposition; support; wedding
DATE: 19 June 1999
YEAR: 1999
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: This documentary explores what it's like to work in the hospitality industry.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I remember waiting tables at Bo Bo ends restaurant in Oriental Bay and and the the Travel Lodge. It was called, um, some years ago and there was this really pompous, um Two couples came and sat at the table, and I mean, they were sitting there and they were ordering me round. And I mean, I can do serve. I can lick, I can scrape, I can crawl if I know I'm going to get a sale out of something or if I'm just going to make people laugh or make people happy. But I just hate [00:00:30] snobby assholes. And this guy was just right up right up his own. And, um, he said to me, You know, he you know, can you pour the champagne? You know, So I pour the bloody champagne, and, um then he says to me in his pompous voice, Can you can you cork the way? And so can you cork the wine and let it breathe? And I'd already caught the bloody wine and let it breathe. And so I picked up the bottle gently in my [00:01:00] hands and put my hand over the top of the bottle and shit out of this bottle of red wine and put it back on the table to his horror and said to him, Sir, after that little jaunt, I'm sure it will paint and spun on my heel and minced off. I've always wanted to look back and see the look on his face, because I'm sure he must have been devastated. But I was so sick of his pompous behaviour. And, um, I got told off that night, but I did [00:01:30] have a floor limit at the Travel Lodge at that time for selling more booze than anyone else, so I was kind of a bit of slack. Hospitality, I suppose, lets me put up a a mask to other people. So the the the Matthew they see in the hotel and the sales and marketing role, or formally in the front desk role is not the same person that goes home and and watches television and eat soup and goes to the gym and things like that. Um, certainly when I I started [00:02:00] at this hotel, um, I was dealing with the whole gay issue and didn't really want it to. I didn't want the fact that I was gay to have anything to do with my work. And it came up quite by accident. And I was really worried about the time that it was going to stop me from succeeding in the industry or getting my sales and marketing role that I could take anywhere else. You know, not hospitality. [00:02:30] Um, so the the the mask and and being superficial was just so easy. Um, it it it meant that I I didn't have to have real relationships with anyone. I had working relationships with everyone. I'd be working ridiculous times of the day. I'd go home and, you know, talk to my flatmates and go to bed. And I'd get up in the morning, I'd be one person. I'd come home and be another person and go to my [00:03:00] room and sort of be myself. But being myself was sort of a fairly lonely thing. I suppose if I was just doing it behind closed doors in gay culture there tops and bottoms, OK, and, um, I think we we do tend to do subservience quite well. I mean, every gay man is not a bottom. I think that's really important to put out out here at this point. but we can do subservience quite well. From that perspective, I think we're We're quite good at reading people [00:03:30] and working out, Um, how people want us to be, Um, a lot of, um, straight men, um, would find it difficult to find out what someone's needs are in a restaurant. And a lot of straight men don't have the eye for detail that gay men have as well. Um, because of our nature. Um, well, some of us are in tune. Um, when we have to be in tune to read, whether it is safe to be gay in a particular environment. I mean, we have [00:04:00] to do that all the time. I don't feel that I'm subservient. And I mean, certainly there are people that treat you that way. Treat you like you know you're a slave and you're there to wait on the hand and foot, which to a certain extent, we are. But then there are people that are just completely unreasonable about it. I think I think there's a much higher ratio of gays in the tourism industry, tourism and hospitality industry, because when when we when we're at school, um, well, I [00:04:30] certainly wanted to get away from school as fast as I could. And I know there's a lot of young gay men we need to get a job. But you can't leave school and get, you know, you got to get a job straight away. Um, so the hospitality and tourism industry lends itself very well to leaving school, getting a job in a in a really nice environment, you know? I mean, especially if you can get a job in a five star hotel. Um, we can work with a glitz. You can develop a lifestyle around it. It has smatterings of success, which we're kind of like needing [00:05:00] straight away. So because we we kind of leave school with, um, low education and we can get a job in the industry, Then I mean, sure, there's other people who go on and get fabulous jobs by going to university and everything else. But for a lot of young gay men, it's kind of a really good place to start my stock standard spiel when selling the hotel is sort of along the lines of walking into the room. III. I prefer doing a visual [00:05:30] presentation rather than standing down at the desk and and trying to explain it, because it's always better when you smell, see and touch things. So I'll take them up to a room and sort of wave my arms around horrendously and say, As you can see, each of the rooms has a queen size bed. We have rooms with fantastic harbour views over our marvellous little city and harbour. Uh, you'll find our standard room in room facilities include tea and coffee making facilities with plunger coffee. None of that instant rubbish. And I'll add these little sarcastic comments. You know, other hotels don't have plunger, [00:06:00] coffee, complimentary fruit, complimentary suites, stationary kit in your desks, bathrobes and in the bathroom. We've got a marble bathroom with a separate shower and bath, and the mirror doesn't fog, which is fantastic. And people just love. The mirror doesn't fog, but that just gets them. If nothing else does, the mirror doesn't fog. That's amazing. There's certain benefits for a gay man working in the hospitality industry. I mean, you can start off quite low in terms of waiting or housekeeping staff, [00:06:30] and you can if you show, um, aptitude. If you show personality perseverance. Um, a certain amount of, um, for want of a better word as licking you can, you can actually get up in the industry and work your way up to middle management. From there, it's a little bit limited because unless you're, um, particularly good at, um, what you do, you may be not going to go so much further. But initially you can get, um, you can get [00:07:00] to be wearing nice clothes working in, um, a nice work environment out the front. Anyway, if you're working in front of house, that is quite good. Um, and generally working in the hospitality industry, you'll meet other gay people, and, um, it can often be a supportive environment. It doesn't happen very often being propositioned and in the hotel. And certainly I've never taken anyone on the offer. I mean, certainly there have been guests that I've been like, Oh my God, and like melted at at the site of them. But [00:07:30] one of the first experiences I had was a member of the US military, asking me where the gay bars were in in Wellington, and I was like, Oh my God and the the whole US and military thing and I was like, Oh, this is a little bit strange. And why are they asking me? Why are they asking one of the other four people on the desk? Do I Look, do I look that gay? And, um Then there was another guest who said So we said to go out in in [00:08:00] Wellington and I was like, Well, what are you looking for? And he goes, Well, what do you think I would like? And I'm like, Well, um, and I mean, I didn't know he was gay. I just really didn't know anything about the guy. And and and I was like, Well, Courtney Place is always really good. There's plenty of things to do down there, lots of different types of bar and was being about as general about it as I possibly could. And he was like Matthew gay venues. [00:08:30] And I'm like, Oh, OK. And as regards being propositioned by guests, I haven't really been lucky enough to have that. Maybe indirectly, maybe I was a little bit naive and didn't pick up on it at the time. That's probably what it was. That's what it'll be, Um, but gay guests, I think, are are rarer than gay hospitality workers. Um, especially in a corporate hotel, I think. I think perhaps if I was working in [00:09:00] a more leisure orientated hotel, I may see a few more people. There was a guy once who, um, used to I shouldn't use his name, but he used to come to a travel lodge bar all the time, and he was a particularly, um, wealthy gay man. But he was also hideously drunk. And there's nothing worse, I think, than a a gay man who's drunk. It's nothing more unappealing. And he was always hitting on me. And I used to, um, have to try and [00:09:30] flirt with him to maintain the business, but at the same time, just make sure he kept his filthy hands off me. And one day, um, I was trying to get through the bar, the travel, the travel lodge bar with a whole tray full of glasses. I must have had about 22 glasses on this tray. And, um, he was there and I tried to avoid him, and I backed at the wrong time and my tray just flipped. It just flipped. And there was this horrendous crash [00:10:00] and here. He was sort of drawing all this attention to the fact that he was lunging at me at the same time. I just completely lost the tray. I hated being front line after a while. I mean, at first, the people contact was amazing. It was fantastic. I loved it. But I just really came to hate people because it was also superficial. And I mean, a lot [00:10:30] of of what we do is superficial. Anyway, a lot about me is superficial, but just the the monotony of it. And even though it hurts and, um, just being jolly, this is the 10/1000 person you've checked in this year and still giving them the same old spill. Here's your room here in room 506. It's around to the right on the fifth floor. Enjoy your stay with us. But imagine I was saying that sort of more along the lines with more inflexions and welcome. [00:11:00] It's so good to see you. And I'm so stoked to have you here. And, um, I've never had a guest quite as fantastic as you before in in that sense to check in. Yeah. So, um, I I came to loathe front line, even though I would always get kiss comments, cards saying He's fantastic. He's wonderful. He's just so helpful, so charming, well presented and all these things and and for my employer, that was fantastic. They were getting a lot of goodwill out of the fact that I was [00:11:30] front line, but I was dying at the same time. I remember going to going to Noosa, and, um, I was going to stay at the youth hostel, but my my new husband decided that we were going to stay at the Sheraton. So we cruised into the Sheraton, and, um I mean, we had literally flown from New Zealand where we had been wedded. And, um, we're standing at the lobby, and I was being quite coy because [00:12:00] I used to work for Sheri and was terrified of, um, you know what what people might think. And, um, my husband, my new husband, brazen as hell waltzes up and, um, starts to starts to negotiate for a, um, accommodation, which I would have thought I would have been better at doing. But he was really good. And he, um he got us a non-smoking room and a non smoking floor, which is what we wanted. Then he presented with the fact that it was our [00:12:30] honeymoon and that, um, he wanted to know, um, what that would mean. Well, we got champagne in the room. We got upgraded to an even nicer room on an even better floor, and we had the most wonderful room. So I think, um, that if you want to get upgraded and you're travelling as a gay couple, just tell them you've just been married. But it really does help if you have some nice shiny rings. As we were afforded it on that occasion as well, with gay guests checking in, [00:13:00] I wouldn't give them preferential treatment. I don't think that would be that would be wrong, but I probably am a little bit more. Um, we have a little bit more to talk about, I suppose, than than your average guest who will just sort of want their key and be on their merry way. These people generally want to know a little bit more about the city they're in. Um, quite often they're international guests. Um, they want to know a little bit about the scene. They want to know about [00:13:30] you and things like that. Another way that you could get upgraded is to, um just to ensure that you make them feel incredibly uncomfortable when they realise that they've put the two men in a twin room when you really wanted a double room. And, um, I have known it to happen where people have. There's no other doubles available in the in the the establishment. So they end up in a suite at the same price to their twin room. To get upgraded in hotels is there are There are people that probably go [00:14:00] their whole lives staying in hotels sort of three or four months out of the air, and they'll never get upgraded once. And they are always the people that when they come and stay with you. Look, I stay so many times and I never get upgraded and bitch and moan and carry on about it. But then you get the other people who come to the desk and check in, and they, you know, even though this is their first time staying their demeanour towards you, they don't treat you like you know the staff. You know so often, people, Would you know, treat [00:14:30] you as a receptionist. You are just a receptionist. You know, file your nails outside of office hours and watch Street, which I do. But, um, they there are people that are just absolutely lovely and treat like a human being and use your name and insist on you calling them by their first name. And people like that as soon as I check, they gonna be like, Oh, you're upgraded just like that. And then you'd get the people, um, who bitch and moan. And because they bitch and so much moan so much [00:15:00] I will upgrade them just to get them off my back. And, um, if they come back the next time a happier human being fantastic. I'll, you know, probably treat them like a real human being. But if they come back and bitch and one again, that's it. They're on my blacklist. They'll get a back room, no view, no window. The real way to get upgraded in any establishment is just by being poisonously nice. I don't think I don't think people need to be assholes to, um to get looked after [00:15:30] and taken care of in the in the accommodation industry um, by name. Dropping is really not a good idea, but just by being yourself and being natural to yourself and your culture, I mean gay people, we don't have to be bitches. We can just be nice to people and and let our endearing natures come through. And, um, if you're working reception in a busy hospitality establishment, you love [00:16:00] it when people are just themselves and, um, and afford, um the the benefit of, um of just being nice Gay men. We don't have to be, um, hostile or stumpy. We don't have to be stumpy queens to get anything. I'm superficial as a general rule anyway. And I've always been a very materialistic person, and and working in a hotel is fantastic because you've got all these sumptuous surroundings and, um, rooms and rooms and people everywhere [00:16:30] and and fun toys to play with that aren't yours and driving people's cars, things like that. Um, as a duty manager, you'd sort of have first dibs on on the cars that pulled up on the driveway. And I'm I'm not a big car person, But if it was a you know, a Porsche Boxster or a little Ferrari or something like that. It was like, stay back port of this one's mine, you know? And it'd be like that. This is what I aspire to to one day have one of these vehicles. [00:17:00] I don't know if it's because I was gay or because I was, um, particularly good with, um, doing the weddings. But for a period of time, I did all the weddings at the Sheraton, and I was the, um I was just a banquet head waiter was my title, but basically, you were the the shift manager and ran any function that was required. And I always did the weddings, [00:17:30] and I had a great time doing the weddings. And I found this wonderful thing that if you got in with the mother of a bride, you could basically do anything you wanted. If you did anything wrong, you were forgiven. But I, I loved the experience of people getting married and doing the whole wedding thing and, um, going through it with them and really making sure that everything just went off fabulously. And, um, I found that the often if a mother was if a bride was on her own and she didn't have a husband there. It was [00:18:00] that time when she missed him the most. So he'd give her that just that little bit of extra attention. And just make sure that that that was kind of acknowledged because it seemed as though families always talked around it. But no one ever talked to the mother of a bride about the fact that you know, he wasn't there. And he was a great part in the the, um, the whole thing of us all coming together. So I always made sure I took the mother of a bride into the banquet room and did the did the room with her and gave her an opportunity to talk about those kind of things because [00:18:30] the it's just such a sad time for for a lifetime partner to have to, um, your lifetime partner to miss it. Weddings, weddings are a glorious occasion and to share it. And we used to have so much fun, they were always so glamorous. I remember once another time there was a scrap. Um, because the, um the, um, families weren't that happy. I think it was a, um, a mixed cultural wedding. And, um, they weren't very happy about this couple [00:19:00] getting together and getting married. And the bridesmaid had to whip off halfway through the the the wedding breakfast to go to work. She was a nurse at middle hospital or something, and she had to whip off to go to to the, um, to go to work. And the, um there was some concern that the father of the bride was going to flog all the money and disappear. So we were always having to keep an eye on him because everyone gave money for the wedding and we were terrified that he was going to rip off for money. And, um, and the bride was [00:19:30] breastfeeding at the table at the head table, which I thought was particularly interesting. Especially when, um, from the lobby of the Sheraton, you could, um, see the elevators. And here's this bride in full white wedding dress with this babe in arms and two Children and this very handsome young man who was her husband to me getting in the lift to go up to the bridal suite, and I'll never forget that. It was just I just thought that was just gorgeous. I found probably that female guests are more [00:20:00] receptive to gay hospitality workers as as opposed to sort of straight ones or even female hospitality workers. Because I mean the whole cliche non threatening gay male type scenario comes into play. And I've always found it really easy to give people, especially [00:20:30] of female guests, bad news because they just tend to take it so much better. Because I can say, Hey, look, you know, I'm really sorry, but we've sold your room to someone else and we're going to have to bump you down the road to like the Backpackers, and they're like, Oh, that's OK And I can even find myself being quite nasty and vindictive to these people and then still walking away loving me. And that's just at first I found it really hard to take. I was like, OK, I'm taking the piss out of you [00:21:00] as you tend to do after all, well, given good service at the same time, just being completely over the top and the guest walking away with a happy experience.

IRN: 191
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/the_red_ribbon.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003838
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089132
TITLE: The Red Ribbon
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Calum Bennachie; Douglas Jenkin
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Calum Bennachie; Douglas Jenkin; HIV / AIDS; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Wellington; gay; health; mental health; programme; relationships
DATE: 17 May 1998
YEAR: 1998
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast a group of men reflect on why they wear the red ribbon.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I suppose it's sort of, um, it's about remembering and reminding. Essentially, it's, uh, it's nice when I meet other people who are also wearing them. It's sort of, um, [00:00:30] part of a club, I guess at home, I still got a lot of reminders of run around. Um, sometimes I'll turn up something that's got his handwriting on it. And little knickknacks that he had, um are still there was, um, [00:01:00] Roderick, Who is the other friend who died? Um, yeah, so reminders aren't quite as frequent with him, But if I hear a mention of say, uh, a play that I connect him with that I maybe saw him in, um, or an opera or a singer that we talked about Then [00:01:30] I you'll come to mind, I Oh, yes. You know, I talked about that with Roderick, and he thought this or he said that or, um hm. I have lost several friends to HIV, including ex flatmates. Um, some of these died when I was living in Australia between 88 and 91 right, But many died since there was a particularly [00:02:00] bad period in 94 where we had 10 people die within a period of three months. So it was then the same people were turning up the same funerals time after time after time. And I suppose the ribbon symbolises that it needn't happen essentially, but it is. In fact, it's needless. [00:02:30] I mean, that's what it means to me personally and politically. And it's sort of like, um, a thing about safe sex and about responsibility that goes with the degree of sexual freedom. Um, is that it's actually needn't happen. It needn't have happened if people had known, um and it needn't certainly needn't happen now, 15 years in. I mean, I I've got some good ideas about why it does happen, but, um, it's to remind people that it could and that it does, and that it has. [00:03:00] In 1991 the San Francisco AIDS Foundation started using the red ribbon as a symbol of, um, care and compassion for those living with HIV aids. And it has spread from there right around the world to indicates support of those who are living with HIV aids. When you actually, you know, live with someone with HIV. Um you realise what the, [00:03:30] um well, what a lot of the public misconceptions are, um you know what? What you can do and what you can't do. Um, and for actual day to day living, I mean, everything is pretty much just ordinary. You know, you don't have to wear rubber gloves to wash the dishes or, you know, stuff like that. Um, [00:04:00] and in fact, through, uh, through him and the, you know, the dealings we had with the health service, Um, and the, uh, sort of publications he had and the the brochures, that was really useful. I learned an awful lot from that. There are some people who are positive who do not want it to be known. Um, which must make it quite hard on them. [00:04:30] Um, because it's the whole issue of coming out again and things like that. Who do you tell? Who do you not tell things like that? What are people's reactions going to be like? Because, unfortunately, there are some people even within the gay community who will not speak to someone if they find out that they're HIV positive. And it's those sort of barriers that we do have to break down. [00:05:00] We are. There was a campaign that was run in Melbourne three years ago. Um, positive plus negative is one community things. And we do have to stress that point that, Yes, we are one community. We are all in this together things. We are at risk things. And if we don't take the right precautions, more of us will become positive. The symbol is actually losing its strength. I think over time, fewer, fewer people are wearing it. We've been trying. I mean, now the epidemic is into its 15th year. [00:05:30] So it's very hard to create, um, to politicise around the same issues for that long with the diverse community. But I mean it as a symbol. Initially, it was extremely powerful because, um, it was the first time it had ever been done like that. And it's been imitated quite a lot since, But, um, it was quite a strong symbol, even in its Hollywood use. I think, um, it actually brought to a mass audience people who [00:06:00] were liberals who were trying to make a point about their own community, the arts community, losing people, and I mean, in that sense it was valuable. But personally, it's valuable as well. I mean, it's it's just one of lots of symbols that I mean, I wear lots of other badges. I mean, from you know, someone who who came out in the seventies not long after Stonewall it was It was a typical of the women's movement, the black movement and the gay movement to have symbols. And, um, I think the red ribbon is at the end of that line of symbols were part of that progression. [00:06:30] And, um, it's just it's one of many, and I also wear often with a red ribbon I wear, um, a safe sex badge, which is a condom on A on A. This outline of a Penis and that is is to me is as important as a red ribbon. The two go together after he died. I mean, there were so many things that I had to sort out for myself. In fact, what I did was I. I sat down and and, uh at the computer and wrote a whole, [00:07:00] uh, a whole lot of stuff, pages and pages, uh, both sort of, like narrative of what we'd of the time we'd had together and also just trying to sort everything out. Um, I think that was very useful. Um, and of course, I sort of, you know, talked quite a lot of the time to friends about it. But then it's funny, you know, life moves on, and, um, [00:07:30] I sort of felt that often, you know, friends, even though they're very sympathetic. Don't want to keep hearing about it all the time. Um, and, you know, life moves on for me, too, but, uh, you know, he's still very present. Um, still think about him a lot. Um, [00:08:00] the, um the bedside clock. But he it was his. He'd brought it when he moved in. And, um, it was always extraordinarily difficult to change the time, you know, at, uh, um, daylight saving or something. It was a a real task, and I've still got it. And I still struggle with it every, you know, every daylight saving. Uh, [00:08:30] so, yes, lots of little things like that. They're about history, that about pride. And they're about love. In fact, with, uh, with with my partner, it was, um [00:09:00] I thought I was being really, you know, sensible. I was getting myself as it were mentally prepared for the fact that, um, you know, at some stage he would be, uh, you know, his health would really break down, and, um and then it didn't happen that way at all. Um, [00:09:30] it all came as a uh when he did die came. It was a terrible shock. I wasn't prepared for it at all. The worst time was during the 94 period that three months in 94 when he lost so many and that it got to the stage where you were just so numb from going along to so many funerals that it got to the stage that you weren't really taking it in. And it was sort of like, Who's at this time? [00:10:00] And you were just over a and overpowered by the whole thing. So many in such a short time. Some of them were a little bit older than me. Some were a little bit younger than me, but they were all around my age. Made it particularly difficult. Um, I did a lot [00:10:30] of talking a lot of soul searching, Um, a lot of questioning. In a very strange way. I was sort of looking forward to be able to help him, you know, come to the end of his life. I suppose, um, you know, deal with the, uh, [00:11:00] you know, his body breaking down and and all those things that I'd read about, um and so, yeah, when when he, um he he took his own life. It was just a terrible blow. Um, [00:11:30] you know, there was sort of years that we could have had, um, which, which were gone. Um, and he was in a in a terrible depression, [00:12:00] and I didn't really know entirely what what to do other than to try and get him to get help. Um, to go and see the There was a psychiatrist who was sort of semi attached to the AIDS ward at the hospital. And, um, [00:12:30] so he he did finally agree to go and see see this man and, uh, made an appointment, but, uh, the day of the appointment, he, um he got up and left ostensibly for work and [00:13:00] went and laid down on the railway tracks in front of a train. And, oh, you know, you always ask yourself why, um and it wasn't a a, um and it wasn't driven by [00:13:30] passion or despair or anything like that. It was He thought it out. Um, in a way, this is all sort of separate from HIV. It's more to do with, um, you know, dealing with depression. Um but I'm sure the idea that, um I think he saw what? What The future held. And he was He was a man who was [00:14:00] I mean, he really loved life. He, uh he was full of life and full of energy, and he loved people. And, um and he hated being, um, you know, having to be attached to a drip for hours on end, or going for tests or swallowing pills or all that sort of thing. He hated that. So maybe part of it was that he [00:14:30] he could see what was coming and didn't want to go through with it. I get angry when I see people spreading hatred and lies about people who are HIV positive, whether that be in the form of videos that are put out through people who call themselves Christian, or whether it's through parental attitudes, that they don't want their son [00:15:00] to have anything to do with the rest of their family because he's HIV positive. It's uncaring attitudes like that that make me angry attitudes of the government that say, Well, we've thrown enough money at people with HIV AIDS to pro at gay men to prevent them from getting HIV AIDS. So let's concentrate on another aspect of the community. Um, another thing that makes me angry is when people who, despite the best of intentions and the best messages that go out, specifically go out to [00:15:30] get themselves infected. Um, maybe they don't mean it intentionally to get infected. Maybe that was the wrong choice of words. But people who, despite all the best messages being pushed in their direction about HIV and its um transmission and how to prevent that transmission specifically go out of their way to not listen [00:16:00] to those messages. Hm. Continue to have unsafe sex in many in in various different ways that they can have unsafe sex. Um hm. Just don't care about themselves or other people's lives enough to take the necessary precautions that can prevent HIV from being spread. [00:16:30] It's politicising, um, radicalising, I suppose, Um, a disease. I mean, it's the first disease in history to have its own glossy magazine, which is called S magazine, which is actually very good And so it's, um it's trying to create, um awareness. Or it's trying to generalise the issue to everybody and make it applicable to them rather than than it being isolated to somebody [00:17:00] else. It's always somebody else, regardless of what the event is. So it's actually trying to bring it home, and I think that's a function of it. Um, a lot of men distance themselves from their risk of HIV, and it helps them to remind people of the history of the disease and of people who actually do have it. Still, the fact that people are taking polio inhibitors and they're better for longer doesn't mean that there aren't skinny little men in hospitals which there are. And, um, all of the people who are HIV positive or have AIDS or who have died. [00:17:30] Um uh, symbolised by that ribbon, which is very simple and that simplicity is part of its success, I think, holding him tightly, I held them. I held [00:18:00] them as they looked at their flatmate on the hospital bed, dying. I held him as they looked at their son in his coffin. I held them and let them know that I cared. I held a couple, one of whom was dying, the other of whom was crying. [00:18:30] I'll let them know my care, my support, my compassion for them. That I was there. If they needed me that I was there for them. I held her gently. I supported her. I held her [00:19:00] out of compassion out of care, showing her the support that I was offering for both her and her son. I held him. His skin felt soft, warm, yielding. I helped him with care. [00:19:30] I help him with compassion. I held him in sorrow.

IRN: 208
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/what_i_fear.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003839
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089133
TITLE: What I Fear
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Wellington; gay; hate crime; health; homophobia; mental health; programme; relationships
DATE: 20 December 1998
YEAR: 1998
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast a group of men talk about their fears as gay men.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm in the darkness and all alone and I can hear voices. I can hear people, but there's nobody talking to me. It's like I'm invisible. [00:00:30] What I fear most about being gay in this country is that people won't accept me for what I am. I feel the gay society most of all because I see it. I see that, um, that they are forced to fit into society's stereotypes as well, and they actually do it quite well. Um, it's [00:01:00] they fit into the society's perception of what being gay should be. And I see it as that. Like, um, gay people should be like witty, good looking, health conscious good bodies and bitchy Queenie Camp superficial. And it's all just plastic. It's it's a facade. It's not what's in them. It's just out there. It's, and in the end it becomes it. It gets to the point where [00:01:30] it's not being themselves. It's being what people want them to be. And I also fear in on Well, as I know, I wouldn't fit in there as well, because they wouldn't accept a gay person with them interacting with them, working with them, living with them, being your neighbours, they wouldn't accept gay couples. I fear not knowing [00:02:00] what my direction is. And I think growing up in a family that didn't have, um, huge resources behind it, Um, not really knowing or growing up with, um, a Maori background, but never knowing it never knowing that Maori heritage language. Um, yeah, I do feel a bit of a sense of isolation. [00:02:30] I'm not really pakeha and I'm not really maori. Um, and I'm I identify as gay, but I'm not hugely into the gay scene. Um, it it does kind of make you wonder where where your place is, where you fit in. And, um, also never really been engendered with directions [00:03:00] in which to go or a career to aspire to. I've been a little bit of a, um when do you call it? I was gonna say weed just grow wild and and that's a little bit sad because you think time is slipping away and what have I done? I mean, if we judged on the on what we've achieved during a certain time, um, or [00:03:30] the lives of people that we touch during a certain period of time, then have I done enough Or could I have done more? Um, I think those are the the fears that I I worry about or give energy to. I'm also, um, fearful of straight people [00:04:00] in social gatherings, like, you know, in nightclubs or bars. I just can't go to those sorts of places. I. I feel like the walls are closing in on me and everybody's staring at me and judging because I'm quite obviously gay, and I'm actually quite proud of the fact that I'm quite obviously gay, you know, I've got nothing to hide. And [00:04:30] if someone comes up to me and says, Are you a or you're a faggot or whatever I will say, I will tell them. Yes, I am. But, you know, um, you go to these You I go to these. If I go to these places, I'm really, really terrified that I'm going to actually get beaten up or something. And in the past, I have been, you know, I've I've been in situations where I've been bashed because [00:05:00] I'm gay. Like I remember about five years ago, I was walking down Courtney Place with a friend of mine and these three guys on the other side of the road called out Faggots at us. And, um, I said to my friend Brent, I said, Just ignore them and we sort of looked the other way and looked in the shops, [00:05:30] and the next time they came running across the road and beat the shit out of us, I guess there's the fear of growing older. Um, [00:06:00] because I, I think the the society but also gay society is very youth focused. And it's not so much the fear of of, um, growing old but growing old and being ostracised. I think my greatest fear would be of growing old alone. I don't see myself as being in any [00:06:30] relationship in the near future, but hopefully in time I will meet someone. But you know, there is that fear that I won't and that when I'm 60 70 years of age, I'm going to be all on my own, and I'm not going to have anybody to look after me because if I was heterosexual, I would have Children and I would have my Children to [00:07:00] look after me basically and right when I get to that age, I'm not going to have Children. I'm not going to have my parents around because I'll be dead and gone, and so I will be on my own and it's quite a scary prospect. When I think about it, I guess I'm [00:07:30] I'm in darkness because I don't know where I'm supposed to be. I don't know where I'm supposed to be long. I don't know. I don't know what I am. I don't know what I should be. And I think I lost my sense of self sometimes because you try so hard to fit into something [00:08:00] and you find that you don't fit and sometimes you are rejected and that is a blow to your self esteem. And and I don't admit to having a very high self esteem. But I think I have enough to get by, you know, But then again, I think what right do other people have to make me feel like this? And [00:08:30] and slowly now I'm learning to to give it back to people, to give them their own medicine, to give back what they've taken from me, like I don't know, just shove it back in your face. I suppose what they gave me and it's sort of slowly working and I'm sort of slowly getting to know myself better. And in what I'm not afraid of [00:09:00] and overcoming the fears and to do things that I want to do for myself and not what people expect and trying to be comfortable with myself again. Yeah. Some of the biggest fans. I think we face a death and loss of loved ones [00:09:30] and being alone. And I've pretty much in my formative years had to cope with those. Um, it really started with my sister being murdered. Um, when I was seven years old and she was only 17. Um, when I was 14, my mother was [00:10:00] diagnosed with cancer and died from it shortly after and a couple of years after that. So this was all through my, um, schooling period. And my brother died as a result of a car accident. Um, and then when I was 20 my father passed away from kidney failure. So by the time I was [00:10:30] 2021 I was celebrating, Hm? Not with my family that I wanted to, but with other people, I'm afraid I'm afraid of being alone. I think [00:11:00] that comes from having fear of being on my own and not particularly liking my own company. In fact, to be honest, I actually find myself quite boring at times, [00:11:30] and my way of getting around that I've discovered now is actually using the Internet, because when I'm on the Internet chatting to people or surfing, I don't feel like I'm alone. I'm afraid that, um, being gay would be a terrible experience or a terrible existence for me. [00:12:00] I know of so many older gay men who who end up by themselves and they can't find anyone like a soulmate. The they end up lonely and they live by themselves. And and the thing that keeps them busy is your business and work. And it's about it. They have nothing more. They have friends, but they don't have anyone [00:12:30] like close to them. They don't have a partner. And me and my friend used to joke about gay death at 30 and it's somewhat true because most people write you off after you. After you reach the age of 30 maybe everyone will end up the same being old and lonely [00:13:00] these days. Um, I start feeling fearful by actually facing how I'm feeling and acknowledging that I'm feeling that way. In the past, I didn't actually face that. I, um, tried to hide from it by over indulging in alcohol and drug abuse. I think most of the time [00:13:30] I turn my fear into hatred, and that's how I get rid of my fears to to hate something in, basically to kill it off. And that's how I get rid of my fears and being gay and being Asian in this country. You sometimes hate that as well, and it sometimes angers me of how people's perceptions are and how sometimes how [00:14:00] narrow minded they can be. It's not to say that I'm very broad minded and stuff like that. Malaysia is sort of a multicultural society anyway, and you accept change. You accept people being different, and people here that don't accept people being different. It's is very much conservative. And that's what angers me. I'm [00:14:30] afraid, afraid none of the bad things that may happen, but of the good things that may happen that I won't be able to cope with. I'm afraid the no kind of arguments why something won't happen will actually come to nought if they do happen. So the energy that I expend on not pursuing [00:15:00] dreams or goals or relationships if I so want them, um, has shown up to be bit of a waste of energy.

IRN: 182
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/neon_rainbow.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003840
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089134
TITLE: Neon Rainbow
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Hamish Allardice
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Dorian Society; Hamish Allardice; Wellington; alcohol and drug abuse; depression; gay; health; homosexual law reform; mental health; programme; transcript online
DATE: 20 March 1999
YEAR: 1999
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this documentary a group of men reflect on drug and alcohol use in the gay community.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I was in immense, immense amounts of pain when I was at high school. Um, just huge amount. I was so confused and so terrified. I mean, I couldn't walk down a corridor without everyone yelling Gobbler and Mary and and everything. And and, um, when I found drugs, they, um they took the edge off everything, and they they just made everything so much more bearable. And, um, [00:00:30] I had a sense of that, you know, I could I could handle anything in the corridors and anything in the classroom for a long time and till I could get stoned again and when I could get stoned again. Then, um it took it all. It took it all away, and it made it somehow seem bearable because I could get away from it all. Um, so I kind of I really do celebrate the kid. Uh, you know, Hamish, when I was when I was, um 15, 16, 17 [00:01:00] when I started, um, smoking dope and drinking alcohol because I think it saved my life because if the other alternative which, of course, you see in, um well, I mean, I've heard of so much for young gay men as we just cut ourselves. And, um, I'm glad I didn't kill myself. I have a zest for life and a passion for life still today, which seems to have held through everything that, um I really wanted to survive I a quiet determination [00:01:30] at all or fight. And, um, I found it better to fight. And, um, to become, um, an angry young man. I was really angry and I could be bitchy, and I could verbally dress anyone down and cut anyone down. I think it's a lot a lot of where gay humour comes from. And it certainly was where mine was based. It was based on defending myself from these, um, kids in the hole in the corridors when I was walking down the corridor at school [00:02:00] because, um, I never knew what was I mean, I always knew it would. I never knew what was gonna come at me, but, um, I kind of always knew whenever I had to walk down the corridor, I would always know that I was gonna get hassled. And also there was other. Apparently, there was other gay kids at the school, but because I was so, um uh so isolated because of I was out. In a sense, none of the gay kids wanted to know me because they didn't want to get tarred [00:02:30] with the same brush. And, um and I was certainly, um didn't really want to know any of the perfect kids anyway because I had to be so staunch. So I was so isolated to fit so really alone not having let the the skills to be able to talk to mom and Dad about stuff or anyone else and just, um, yeah, got stoned. It was so much easier. [00:03:00] The thing is, I think, that our alcohol and drug use very much does mirror what goes on in society and does very is very responsive to environmental pressures. So that before homosexual law reform, the pressures on the individual encouraged alcohol and drug use. The social ghettoization encouraged alcohol and drug use right across our community. It's what you did. [00:03:30] You met your friends at the pub and drank. There was nowhere else to go. You didn't go with your friends to cafes, or I mean, there weren't many then, but to the to the other options. If you wanted to be yourself you are in a drinking situation after homosexual law reform that slowly whittled away. And so therefore, some of the pressures to drink and drug use with a maturing lesbian and gay population lost [00:04:00] some of its power. You see it still with the younger ones. Younger lesbians gaming are still coping with all the issues of coming out and integration of of their identity and behaviour, et cetera. And so I still drinking and drug using as much as ever. Well, I moved to Wellington when I was 17, and, uh, straight away it was I [00:04:30] was working in a hotel and, um, his fourth cooked salad hand and pot washer basically and, um, trying to get trying to get somewhere. And I met. I met, um, older men who were, um, taken by my my youth and innocence I get I don't know, they liked me, and I like the attention and, um and they they used, they drunk and [00:05:00] they got stoned. And one guy used to hit up. And it was when I found speed, and, um, I never used intravenously, but, um, I, um, would have speed and and a speed ball crystal methedrine it was It was really nice, but I don't. I mean, I got carried out of the house with my eyes rolled back and apparently IOD, but I don't remember anything about it. And, um, I was living [00:05:30] here, and there was a do in society. It was the only gay, um, as such. It was a Victoria club, which was supposedly for older men. And I went there too, though, and, uh, the do in society and the Dorian Society, you could pay $15 on the door, and it was an open bar. You could drink as much as you liked, and, um well, I followed suit. I drank as much as I liked and got laid. You know, it was pretty much what [00:06:00] what we did. We were just gay men. I mean, I didn't have any role models that said that, um, that there was any other way to live life. I didn't exactly, um, in the environment that I was living in, it wasn't particularly, um, I didn't see other people doing life any other way. And I met people and tried to formulate relationships based on, um, being off my head. So, um, none of them really came [00:06:30] to very much. I guess so. II. I, um, just worked and lived and worked and lived here and got more promiscuous and did more dope. And, uh, a friend of mine suggested that maybe, you know, there wasn't a gay escort agency and that maybe we should do that. So we tried that for a while, but the cute ones, the nice ones, I'd give it to them for free because I didn't really care. And the really, really awful ones, I couldn't [00:07:00] do it. Surprise, surprise. And, um, I just thought they revolted and cheap and tacky. I remember my 21st birthday was a job. You know, I stayed at the royal around, and, um, and Oriental Bay around there. And, um, I was 21 and I was in the bill for dinner, and the amount of money I made that night was $510. I can remember thinking, Fuck, I made [00:07:30] it. I thought I've made it, you know, because I could get that much money in a night. But it was my 21st birthday, and that was my 21st. You know, I thought that was pretty sad as well, but it's part of me. Thought it was sad. And the other part thought I made it. And then a few months later, I got my 21st present from my parents, and I thought, God, I really didn't mean that much to them. In a sense, it sounds awful to say it, but I kind of didn't really feel like, um, [00:08:00] I was that important. I'm the youngest of six kids, and mom and dad always used to go and visit everyone, and they never visited me. And, um, I mean, I used to think it was because I lived in the city and not many of my family did. But really, it was because I was gay and they didn't really want to be witness to my lifestyle. So they didn't come and visit things like that. But just, um, I've only learned about since I, um, stopped stopped. [00:08:30] Um, stop churning out and stop. Um, getting stoned. Um, come and clean. Well, when I first tried to give up, I gave up everything. Cigarettes, coffee, tea, sugar, kind of all or nothing. Kind of a guy, a bit of a perfectionist, and, um Well, It was a month of absolute nightmare. [00:09:00] And, um, I was just mad trying to be in control and, um, I don't know, The emotional stuff that comes up straight away is just horrendous. I don't know where it all was, but it just started to come and and I found myself just emotionally a wreck, trying to find anyone to help me take the pain away. They say that alcoholics and addicts don't have relationships. We [00:09:30] take hostages. And I think that was pretty much apparent in my when I first tried cleaning up. I'd latch on to anyone to help me, Um, help me, Just help me God. And, um, for the first six months of recovery after rehab, I just cried all the time at meetings, I'd go to meetings and I'd try and cheer, and I'd just cry and cry and, um, are so vulnerable. I was just [00:10:00] so vulnerable. I didn't know how to. I didn't know how to live. And people would go for coffee after a meeting or, um or just trying to be in social situations. And I wouldn't know what to say. Take away all the dope talk and the bitchiness and the the old behaviour. And I didn't have anything to say anymore. I felt so useless and so less than so, Let it lists another game in in some ways. Um, and I had to remove myself pretty much from [00:10:30] gay culture because, as I understood it at that stage, I now know that it's different. But there wasn't really anything that was, um, that wasn't centred, focused around alcohol and drugs. Well, it certainly hadn't been my experience. And most of my friends were, um, not alcoholics and drug addicts, but they were people who were, um, socially involved in in alcohol. So for the first three years, I couldn't really go, didn't I mean, I just had to, [00:11:00] um, go to recovery meetings and try and learn about myself. Learn about, um, the parts of myself that weren't full of self obsession or self righteousness or, you know, it's really strange. Early recovery is bizarre. You spend most of the time trying to get over yourself, but at the same time trying to work out who you are. It's really, really lonely being a gay man in recovery. Initially, I did some research about a year ago, two [00:11:30] years ago now on the experiences of lesbians and gay men who went through treatment services in New Zealand, and it was not very good the outcome of that. It wasn't very, very, um, optimistic. Most of the services, though claiming a tolerance and they believing that they were tolerant, had still not extended to homosexual clients the services that they had offered heterosexual clients. For example, heterosexual [00:12:00] clients would be offered the opportunity to bring their husband or wife in to involve their family. Homosexual clients really were invited to bring their partner in heterosexual clients could bring friends in. Homosexual clients are often not invited to bring friends in heterosexual clients are much more comfortable and at ease in groups. When there was any kind of group therapy that went on, homosexual clients [00:12:30] were invited into those groups and were expected to talk about themselves to expose themselves to a group of people who are not gay. And this was very threatening for many when it came to looking at what happened after treatment when they went back into the community. Heterosexual clients were more often than gay clients invited to in involve employers or their sexuality. somehow was part of the [00:13:00] aftercare programme that was developed and the monitoring that went on for homosexual clients. The fact that they'd be going back into gay bar or into into the kind of perhaps gay centred lifestyle they've been in before didn't feature as part of the aftercare planning. So there was, um, a discrimination that went on not a deliberate one, but one out of ignorance. And so even here in the nineties, in a country which is more [00:13:30] tolerant than many to its gay and lesbian folks, New Zealand, especially in the liberal humanities, we could still find that gay men would not receive and lesbians would not receive the kind the the the same quality of treatment opportunity as what heterosexuals, I think also being clean and, um, choosing to live clean means that it's, um, sometimes difficult to have relationships with people. [00:14:00] Um, I mean I. I have to, um, my maintenance is that I still go to meetings. I still go to recovery meetings 10 years down the track. There's plenty of people who I've seen, um, in rehab or met through recovery, who don't, um, do meetings anymore. And, um, over the um, drunk or get stoned again. Or they, um they get killed, [00:14:30] they die, and, um, or they choose other other ways of living. And, um, trying to establish a relationship with, um the limitations that I have placed on me because I'm an addict, um, is is often difficult. There's the, um, the stuff like I have to I have no choice but to be completely honest with, um, [00:15:00] loved ones. I. I don't It's not a choice. Um, resentments are luxury. Uh, judgement judgments are a luxury luxuries I can't afford. Because if I go there, if I get involved in and all that sort of crap, it just isolates me again. And, um, as someone in recovery, that's very, very dangerous. And as a gay man in recovery, it's, um it's suicidal. So there's certain things [00:15:30] that I can't, uh, I can't do. And I have to be really mindful of, um, I'm also extremely vulnerable because, um, uh, you know, I'm I'm a very sensitive person, and, um, trying to, um, develop relationships and things means that you know, you have to you get bruised, so you have to be very careful. Uh, I have to be very careful about how I go about things, [00:16:00] and that doesn't necessarily change. But I don't I don't also think that that's, um, just for for gay men in recovery. I think that that's for gay men, Period. If you are alive, is valued enough by society. If you feel good enough about your sexuality, if you're able to integrate that with the other things that you want and get out of your life, then alcohol and drugs will find its right place. [00:16:30] And that may be no use at all. And that may be just a moderate use. But if you're really going over the top, then something else in your life ain't right. When I work with with, um, gay men who have got into alcohol and drug dependencies and where things in their life have got really chaotic and I see them as a counsellor, the alcohol and drug part of their story is dealt with, usually quite quickly, [00:17:00] and then they get off that because that's not what it's really about. It's about despair, or it's about loneliness. It's about grief. It's about fear. It's about distress. That's what it is that they want to work on and talk about. And it's in the resolution of those things that the alcohol and drug use then falls into place. And for many of them, they say, Oh, I don't need that don't want it Others say I can't control it. I don't have the confidence of controlling it. I'm [00:17:30] better without it. And others are able to return to a moderate use because the issue, the reason why they had to develop a dependent relationship on it, has has gone.

IRN: 206
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/a_happy_memory.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003841
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089135
TITLE: A Happy Memory
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Gareth Farr; Shane Town; Steve Danby
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1990s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Gareth Farr; HIV / AIDS; Shane Town; Steve Danby; Vinegar Hill / Putai Ngahere Domain; Wellington; gay; programme
DATE: 13 February 1999
YEAR: 1999
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this documentary a group of men reflect back on a happy gay memory.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Oh, OK. So, like, there's a Scottish boy, there's a Scottish boy, this gorgeous Scottish boy who, um, I met in Wellington, and he was only here for a week, and I had this wonderful time with him, and, uh, I keep saying No, no, no, no, no. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I couldn't possibly No, no, no. And he was like, Oh, come on, come home to my hotel. Oh, no, I'm not that sort of girl. I don't do that sort of thing. And then he, um he said, Well, look, let me walk you back to your car. I said, [00:00:30] I've got to go home now. I've got to go home all the time thinking Oh, come on, Gareth. Come on, Go for it. Go for it. Go back to his hotel. No, no, no. Yes. No. Yes. No. So he said, OK, I'll walk you back to your car. And, um my car was parked on Tennyson Street next to the symphony orchestra, and we were just walking down Tennyson Street and he said, Come on, kiss me. Come on, kiss me. And I said, Oh, what the hell, right? And, um oh, he gave me the best kiss I'd had in ages. It was just fantastic. And [00:01:00] I was just standing there with this perfect moonlit evening. Perfectly, perfectly romantic sort of scene out of a movie. And then all of a sudden, this absolutely ghastly stench of rotten seafood from cooked straight seafoods, which was over the road, just wafted over the two of us. And he just sort of pulled himself away and stared at me in absolute horror. And I was like, What? No, it's not me, he said, Oh, thank God [00:01:30] for that. I thought I just made a terrible mistake. I was like, It's the seafood place. I do wash, you know. And, uh, that was the end of my beautiful romantic evening. Luckily enough, the next night I went back to his hotel room, and it was much better. There was no, um, rotten smell of seafood, so they made me laugh. Though I've been in a relationship now for 10 years, and about three years ago my partner [00:02:00] was made redundant and he decided that he was going to go and see some friends of his in Australia and have a break after working for the organisation he'd been with for 20 years and he went off to Australia and I spent the first week that he was away miserable because I missed him because we hadn't basically been away from each other for any length of time. And some friends in [00:02:30] Australia rang me and said It's his birthday when he arrives the day he arrives at the part of Australia, they live in and go out of Sydney and they said, Why don't you come over? We've got a group of friends together and we're gonna have a birthday party for him. So I thought that would be a good idea. And when I rang him a couple of days before that, I said, Uh, I would be working the next two days, so I'll ring him After that, I'll ring him on his birthday in the evening, so that was [00:03:00] fine. I rang the travel agent who said Oh yeah, when do you want to fly over there? And I said, Oh, I want to fly tomorrow morning first flight out. So I did and I flew off to Sydney, caught the train to Gosford. I'd never been to Gosford before. It was pitch Black didn't know it was an hour and a quarter out of Sydney. Didn't know where I was going to found my way there, Didn't know the people I was going. The people that were meeting me at the other end but managed to catch up with them. They [00:03:30] picked me up, and the next day my partner was arriving on the train and we arrived at the railway station. After he'd rung, he didn't even know I was there. And to see him recognise me after I got out of the car and burst into tears and give me a big hug in public with no fear of what was going on was just great. And it's a moment I'll treasure for the rest of my life. [00:04:00] I remember when I was about 10 and my baby brother had just been born and we went up to Waitangi with the family and that was me, Mom, dad and my elder brother and my baby brother, and we went to the meeting house at Waitangi, and [00:04:30] my father was I don't know what he was doing, but he was hanging the different, um carvings in the house, so I went along and did the same thing until someone pointed out to me that I was actually hanging the men's dicks. But no, I don't know if that was like for telling of things to come or yes, I'm kind of one of those ones, [00:05:00] and I just never lived down. I was asked to leave, um, secondary school about three weeks into the seventh form for a variety of reasons which I will not go into. And my mother pulled me and I went down to Wellington, sort of. I got a job within an hour, and then I went back to Masterton, and then I sort of had to pack [00:05:30] up and move moved down to Wellington, and, um, my mother pulled me aside and she sort of she didn't quite know how to say this in any way at all, but she she didn't know I was gay at that stage. We hadn't had the coming out talk and she she sort of said, Well, look, you know, you really do need to be aware of, um gay, um, not of gay. She didn't use that of dark. Yeah, of of men lurking in alleys, who might [00:06:00] draw your aside because of your cherubic looks, and she actually used the word cherubic looks. And I can remember thinking at that time that Wellington was an hour and 40 minutes away on the train. And really, I couldn't wait for that hour and 40 minutes to be over and that I was hoping that one of those men might just be on platform nine waiting for me when I got there. Needless to say, he wasn't, and it took me about three months to find Wellington's gay community in 1976 or whatever [00:06:30] having a crush. It's, I think, it's it's that's a fun part of being. I think probably it's a fun part of being straight as well. But having a crush on someone, it's It's sort of affirms that you you are a person. You you feel for someone that you have the capabilities to feel for someone. I've only had 11 real crash, and it's sort of like, um, it's sort of like was the [00:07:00] trigger point to to actually admit that I'm gay and then to come out because that was the time I had a crush on my roommate, not at the time. He wasn't my roommate, but I had a crush on this guy. He was from Warehouse, and he he moved in around April. And that's sort of when I noticed him. And that's when the crash develops. And at that time, I haven't had a crush before and I didn't know what was coming over me. Yeah, and, um, I sort of knew his roommate at that time, [00:07:30] and his roommate wanted a single room, and I had I had a single room, so I took the risk of swapping rooms with them and I actually moved in, probably about two weeks later, after my exams. And, um, yeah, I moved in with them and spent the rest of the second semester with him. So it's kind of fun. Yeah, I guess for me, in a way, when I was thinking about [00:08:00] this, I thought the gay memories that mean the most to me as gay things are the gay people who I remember who aren't here anymore. And it's funny to say that this is a happy gay memory, but I guess there's things I know and that I remember that no one else does about people we're never gonna see again and a couple of esoteric things, things that aren't events or anything. It's I can [00:08:30] see the spring and my friend Lee rans Field's Walk Lee died of AIDS, I suppose, five years ago now. But all I have to do is just visualise them, and I can get a whole aspect of his vivacity and his joie de Viva from the way he moved. And then someone who no one will remember now who was never a very out there gay person didn't have a big circle of friends. Quite quiet was a guy called Wayne Dunn, and he died [00:09:00] of AIDS, I suppose, 12 years ago, a long time ago, Um, and it's a note in his voice. I remember. And when I think of Wayne, I hear that note. And it's not as if he's never gone because he's still 23 and now I'm pushing 40 somehow he sort of preserved an aspect. But all I've got left, in a [00:09:30] way is a vague, fuzzy picture of what Wayne Dunn looked like and a certain note that I can remember hearing in his voice. And if I ever hear anybody else making the same sound. Wayne's back with me, and we weren't close. We weren't good friends or anything like that. But that's something that is preserved in the wiring of my brain. That's kind of like a happy gay memory because he lives on in it, and I think that's quite neat. [00:10:00] Um, every year in Wellington, over the Christmas period, there's a gay camp at a place called Vinegar Hill, and about five years ago I went out there with a group of friends and we arrived about seven o'clock at night, and we all put up our, um, tents. And it was really good because all the people around us helped put up [00:10:30] the tent, helped us put up our tent. We had a great big, huge tent. There was about six of us in this big tent, and we blew up our lidos and things, and it's really, really roughing it. You know, there's no proper toilet facilities, nothing. And anyway, um, II. I decided to take a walk down to the river and I'm walking down to the river and I see this woman, and the next thing she turns around and [00:11:00] she's got a chainsaw and she's chopping up firewood. And I said to her, What are you doing? And she says, I'm chopping up the firewood fire tonight and he's this really butch guy and a frock with a chase. I think that's my funniest. [00:11:30] I got really distraught when and that question was asked because the first thing that came to mind was a complete blank. Um, I couldn't find a specific memory that revolved around me being a gay man, and that made me happy. Um, I mean, I could obviously take well, to me, it's It's an obvious tack that there are. There's I've got [00:12:00] lovely, happy memories of sexual experiences as a gay man. But I wanted the question to be broaden that I mean, yes, a wonderful happy memory of the first time at the age of 14, ever actually having sex with another male, a school friend. And it was It was mystical and magical and sensual and sexual, and it was like learning to breathe. It was something extraordinary. So yes, happy. But that wasn't as gay male, certainly not as a gay adult male anyway. So I sort of rack my brains [00:12:30] about a happy moment as a gay man. And the next thing that came to mind was taking on my my employer, um, a large airline company over a human rights case, um, discriminating against against gay employees in terms of not honouring or allowing special leave when partners are injured. And I fought and I fought and I fought over a six month period and one they backed down change the policy. And that was [00:13:00] for me. It was a wonderful, defining moment. It was great that an individual gay man could stand up against a corporation with billions and win because he knew he was right morally and legally. Finally. So, yes, that was that was a moment of triumph and victory and pride. Perhaps so I'm not sure it was happy. I mean, what came to mind was OK, if you've won World War Two, you're glad you won. But are you happy you had to fight the war? Probably not. So yeah, happy and then [00:13:30] actually walking here this afternoon. It was a lovely moment, walking past the library and sitting in the sun with two guys, maybe in the twenties, on a park bench, and they were obviously sitting there enjoying the time and the day. It wasn't until I got a little bit closer. I was just that. One of them had his arms around the other one's shoulder and was just gently stroking the side of his neck and obviously lovers or friends or whatever it was, that was lovely. That was a really happy moment, just seeing these two guys completely at ease enjoying themselves [00:14:00] in public.

IRN: 205
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/the_first_time_ever_i_saw_your_face.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003842
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089136
TITLE: The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Greg; John Greager; Richard King; Stuart Douce
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Greg; John Greager; Richard King; Stuart Douce; Wellington; coming out; gay; icons; labels; media; movies; programme; radio; stereotypes; television; transcript online
DATE: 18 July 1998
YEAR: 1998
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast a group of men reflect on the first time they saw a gay character on television or in a film.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Gay people don't kiss. They don't touch each other. They just they just meet, meet each other anonymously. They don't even know each other's names. And they have anal sex all the time. And and they have approximately 400 sexual partners per year, and they have unsafe sex all the time. And they're all full of diseases. To me, the stereotypical gay person was a stage sneaky or vicious, [00:00:30] brittle, unstable. The first. Yeah, I remember watching a film called Blackmail and it concerned a barrister in England. Uh, he was He was certainly married, and he had a family, [00:01:00] and he was involved in a in a murder, and and he himself wasn't involved in it. But I think what happened was he had, uh, picked up a young man somewhere in London who was gay. And they had, uh, gone off together. Uh, and of course, his wife didn't know about this. And then, uh, I think the guy was killed or murdered, and he then started to receive, uh, through [00:01:30] the mail, sort of a four size envelopes with these large photographs of him. And there were photographs of him, Uh, with this with this boy this with this young man. Rather, And whoever it was that was sending him the photographs was blackmailing him because, of course, it was set in the time. I think it must have been set in the fifties or the sixties. Of course, when, uh, being gay or at least, uh, doing homosexual acts was illegal in Britain. And of course, his family didn't know about [00:02:00] it. And he stood to lose a lot because he was an eminent barrister and so on. So, uh, that I remember, was the first I'm pretty sure that was the first thing I saw on television or or or or on film, uh, about somebody being gay. And I remember watching it with my mother. And I remember her turning around to me and saying to me, I hope you're not homosexual. Mm. [00:02:30] What is my identity? That that that's part of my problem. My identity tends to change according to to the people I I have around me, Um, I. I don't know if that's generally true, but but it's certainly part of my makeup there that I tend to reflect what's given to me by by other people, I think, as a boy. I had a lot of [00:03:00] fear and anxiety. Um, and I think some of that relates back to what one was presenting to the world. Um, about being a boy about being a boy and about doing things that boys did, and about kind of boys activities and [00:03:30] approaches to the world. Well, when I was growing up, I guess the the images of being gay were on the whole a lot more negative. Um, they certainly weren't encouraging you to. Well, even if you could choose being gay, you wouldn't choose it because it was really a, um, a lifestyle of derision and comedy. Um, all the characters you saw in sitcoms, for example, who were gay were always people [00:04:00] who were lim, uh, had high squeaky voices. Um, squealed, shrieked, screamed, uh, generally very effeminate. Um, and with the butt of everybody's jokes. And of course, there are always jokes about fags and gays and so on. And and that kind of person always seemed to to be on the short end of of of that sort of joke in so far as people who weren't in comedy. Uh, there simply [00:04:30] weren't that many. You. You see the odd film, uh, which deals with homosexuality in a in an overt way. But again, they're they're pretty. Um, I don't know if they're negative or positive, but but but they're certainly pretty sort of wrenching movies. And I'm I'm thinking of movies again as the one I mentioned before, uh, of blackmail. But there are some other movies that there's a very good movie called Boys in the Band, Um, which is a 19 seventies movie. And it is [00:05:00] all about a party, um, at, uh, a guy's apartment in New York, and he invites a whole lot of, um, acquaintances around. And they're all different types of personality. They're all gay. Um, but nobody's ever happy in it. Unfortunately, and and you kind of finish this movie not feeling depressed, but, um, thinking, gosh, what a sort of sad bunch of people they are. If you're treated as as being ok [00:05:30] and normal and, um, healthy, then then you would almost act that way. Um, that once people continuously tell you that that that your natural feelings are wrong Well, how do you cope with that? I have a very strong, um memory, I suppose of some kind of composite picture in my mind about what a gay person was. And I guess reflecting back the closest I can make it akin to would be a kind [00:06:00] of Kenneth Williams, kind of, uh, character, but probably even a bit wetter and more pathetic. Hello? Oh, how are you? You know, things like that. Oh, all very nasal and oh, hello. I don't know where that, uh, picture came from, and I don't identify it with any kind of known person because, to my knowledge, I'd never met another gay person. [00:06:30] But it was carried around as a kind of image in my head, um, with a lot of, um, you know, and it was a very negative image, obviously, but also a lot of fear around it in terms of not being like that, you know, not fear that I might be like that. And, um, a lot of energy, I think, went into, um, being [00:07:00] not like that. If I think back into my earlier years and I'm thinking now, I suppose I would become aware of of, um, gay issues in in the late fifties sixties and the only person that that that I can think of off the top of my head is, um uh, Kenneth Williams, who was, um [00:07:30] he he he presented a sort of characterization that that that that it was never actually stated openly that that it was a gay character, but to to those that that that knew the kind of innuendo that that went on, um, it was so obviously gay that that it was untrue. But with him, the it was a stereotype. It was kind of, [00:08:00] you know, gay, hysterical, bitchy queen kind of thing. That was what I knew that gays were like and I was terrified of being like that myself. So that was not that was really not what I wanted to be at all. So that put me off for for a long time, um, wanting, you know, the idea of being gay and being like that was completely repulsive to me. I guess people that were lonely and maybe [00:08:30] a bit sort of screwed up. Not altogether. Um, just weird. Different, um, guys that wanted to be women, I guess. You know, um, guys that dress up in women's clothes all the time and and talk like women and act like women and, um, one of the head hairdressers when they grow up and people that are, like, puffy and can't whistle and don't play sports and yeah, just negative. Negative, negative. [00:09:00] Negative. Um, every time I saw that word, it was just scary and and awful. I remember spending endless hours when I was around about I must have been 11, 12, 13 around that age, I guess. Watching television quite late at night. I I used to sit up and watch the Sunday horrors, which was one of the things I managed to persuade my parents into letting me watch. And, uh, among the films I watched quite late at night were, uh, I. I tried to watch every movie I could that I thought possibly might have somebody in it [00:09:30] who was gay or or or or or um, homosexual. And it was, um, it was It was quite interesting because, of course, a lot of the movies didn't have anything that they they seemed to have storylines which might be leading that way. But I, I guess what I was sort of screaming out for or crying out for, uh was to have a gay character with whom I could identify because, uh, it was very difficult. I mean, there weren't films, uh, with gay characters, and I mean [00:10:00] all all all the gay people you saw in films were sort of, you know, pink handbag, um, swinging people in dresses and so on and so forth. And it was I knew that wasn't me. I knew that wasn't what I was all about. And And I guess the only thing I could identify with at at a very early age was the sexuality part of it rather than the lifestyle. Because there was nothing when I was growing up, Um, and and certainly in my early teenage years of people who were gay and it was OK, [00:10:30] and they lived, uh, normal lives or or or whatever lives they wanted to live, I think at that time there was some warning bells going off there somewhere, saying, um, you know, this could lead to trouble or this is not right. Or, you know, this isn't how things should be. Everything I'd ever heard or seen about these homosexuals was was negative. Um um I knew. I just knew it was a bad thing. Um, I [00:11:00] don't. I can't work out how I knew. It must have been almost a subconscious thing that it was never ever talked about. Um, no one even talked about it in a positive way. Um, people at school would, if you did something which was maybe considered to be a bit sissy or or not was expected of a of a man or a boy or a or a male. Um, that was sort of labelled as as a homosexual act. Um, whether it be if you tripped over or if you, um I don't know if you weren't weren't gonna go [00:11:30] and play rugby or or if you maybe, Yeah, it was, um, always a negative term. And I I knew that it was sinful and a moral according to the church and and just Yeah, the only images I had were were people that men who who just wanted to to, like, have sex with other men and, like, public toilets and in parks, and they used to go and pick each other up in bars. Um, almost people that were screwed up [00:12:00] in terms of not living a proper lifestyle, which I thought was, um you know a man and a woman living together, um, in a house in suburbia somewhere with, you know, with two kids, a cat and a dog and and a car. That was sort of the only image I had of, um, how How people were meant to live your life so that when I sort of started realising I wasn't going to fit this this model, which is the only way of life that I knew of that was quite scary. Um, [00:12:30] and I I do remember I would have been, I don't know, 14 or 15. And I, I made a decision once that I would just, um, pretend to like a woman and get married and have kids and, you know, have a 9 to 5 job and just sort of, um, go and secretly relieve my urges with other men, I guess, and just sort of meet them in secret and and just sort of deal with it that way. I always saw myself [00:13:00] as quite different. I saw I didn't see myself in that swishy way at all, actually, And, uh, as I got older and I, I met other people like that I. I certainly didn't find them sexually attractive at all. I was always attracted, of course, to, you know, the 1st 15, and, um, big Butch boys. Uh, and in fact, when I left school, so I was 18. Um, my first [00:13:30] sexual experience was getting picked up by by a Nancy boy real fey creature in a public toilet in Plymouth, which was, um, a horrific experience, one that scarred me for years because it was, you know, I was desperately curious and horny, I guess, and I wanted to know if this is what I was. And if this is, um, something that I would find and then and it would be, um, attractive and interesting to me and you know, [00:14:00] all those things. And, um, he took me back to his place, and it was I just I remember just shivering and fear and repulsion, but kind of letting him do things to me because I just wanted to go through with the experience and was probably too scared to leave anyway. But it was, um that was horrific to me. And I didn't have sex for years and years after that. So I suppose all those those years of those um, [00:14:30] kind of feminine caricatures had obviously sleep in there. And, you know, I was very prejudiced against them. I think I had this funny idea, sort of really irrational idea that if I admitted to myself or to the world that I was gay, I was somehow overnight going to turn into this strange kind of, um that I was going to undergo some major personality shift and [00:15:00] that suddenly overnight, I would become this kind of weird, uh, combination of characteristics and attributes that I I had sitting in my head as what a typical homosexual gay person was. And I remember when I was at school being teased as a child or as as a young teenager for being gay. And people used to say to me, You're gay and I. I don't know if the kids really knew what it meant, but Children have [00:15:30] this peculiar way of picking on, I guess, weaknesses or or or things that are different. And certainly as a child, I was as a as a young boy. I was perhaps a bit different to some of the other kids, although, uh, looking back now, not a lot different to to some of the other kids there. But, uh, certainly what happens is you You get a group of Children and you get the strongest among them who end up being bullies but also end up influencing [00:16:00] the people who are easily influenced. And they end up picking on, uh, who they perceive to be the weakest in the group, or somebody who's different. And, uh, I was teased to to some extent and and what that meant for me was because there was no assistance for me in the media. Nothing which said to me, Hey, it's OK to be gay. It's all right if you're like this, I ended up developing certainly when I went to high school uh, quite a different persona, so that by the time I did come [00:16:30] out to my friends, when I was about 16 or 17 at school, they were surprised, not shocked, but certainly surprised that I was gay because I had spent a good three or four years turning their minds off that so that they wouldn't think I was gay, because that was the only way I was not going to be teased. I couldn't when I was 13, say Yes. Well, so what if I am gay? Um, that's all right, isn't it? It just didn't work like that. I. I had [00:17:00] to create a situation where people thought well, either they didn't think about it at all or they didn't think I was gay. I think the way I sort of dealt with being gay was was when I was at university was to go and search out all the information I could on this homosexuality thing. I'd just go to the computers in a dark corner and type in gay into the computer. Um, being really nervous in my hands, shaking, typing in those three letters. And then I just go and look at go to the gay section and [00:17:30] and look at the books and I'd I'd I'd take about five out and sit in the corner and just read the whole books, you know, cover to cover one after the other. And it it used to take hours. And I used to go several nights a week until I sort of read everything I could. And I'd look at the pictures if they had pictures in them and and try and relate to the people in the pictures and try to think, Oh well, he looks normal. So maybe it's not such a bad thing. I remember being on a holiday with my parents once when I was in my early teens and [00:18:00] going to the islands and stealing that book everything. You always want to know about sex but were afraid to ask from a bookshop and taking it with me to a public toilet across the road from the bookshop and devouring it, especially that went straight to the chapter on homosexuality. I suppose it would have been 13 or something at that point, and, um, I mean, you know, it's quite a negative thing. It's it's really full of lots of very negative. Um [00:18:30] uh, you know, stuff about about being gay and and what the gay lifestyle is all about. So I was fascinated by that, but obviously it was, you know, disturbing to me as well. I can't really remember the details, but it was It was a lot about I seem to remember, you know, um, it's the whole promiscuity thing, you know, things that peop people and anal sex and things that were [00:19:00] described in a way that was sort of vaguely disgusting, but with a slightly liberal standpoint on it, Um and you know, the idea of, you know, multiple sex partners and not being able to find true love and being desperate for sex. And there's all these sort of, um, ideas that really I didn't really want to hear either, that I just believed them. And that's just I knew that this man was an expert and must all be true. [00:19:30] I suppose the the the most striking thing that that that I've observed it is when a gay character has come into a mainstream kind of programme. And I think that that happened with, um, Billy Crystal in that, um, stand up of of soap operas called soap. [00:20:00] Um, I think that that that was kind of a landmark occasion. You see, the the there's always been material around if you want to go and get it, um, both on film and and, um in books. And it's just a matter of of knowing where to go and and, um and pursuing that that sort of line. But for it to to enter the the mainstream, as [00:20:30] it did in in So, um, even then Billy Crystal played that character as a totally natural person. It seems to me that every gay character, um in in in the film in the movie is portrayed to appeal to straight people, um, as opposed to maybe being a role model or being a gay person that that gay people could actually relate to and think, Oh, that's quite realistic or wow, what a really cool [00:21:00] person or whatever. They just seem to just cheapen cheapen the whole thing about gay people. In most programmes, you wouldn't see gay characters doing the things that you not only see but expect straight characters to do. You never see the kissing, the touching, the stroking, the rubbing, that hagging. Um, the licking. Um, you never see any of the the really You never see the best parts of sex. If you saw gay people on in films [00:21:30] or on television, I mean, you, you you very rarely saw them on television. They certainly weren't touching other gay people. I mean, there there was no there was no sexual contact. There was nothing overt about the person. It was fine to have a gay character, it was fine to have a gay person so long as they didn't do anything. And I suppose all these things just reinforced in my mind. Um, what? [00:22:00] I grew to believe that being gay was all about, really, which was pretty much a tragic lifestyle. It was something, you know, you really didn't want to tell your parents because you know how upset they'd be because, um, you know, you you of all those things. You you weren't going to have that warm family environment with Children. And the chances are you'd be some, um, lonely, old, tragic thing that everybody despised. And, um, [00:22:30] I mean, it's just the idea of of I think a lot of it was about being alone and furtive and scared and, uh, and weak and a victim. I think a lot of it was all about those things. And there was no no concept of of love and respect and things which took me quite a while to learn that that [00:23:00] was possible as well. Trouble is about, um uh, presenting gay gay characters on stage or in film or in books. Um, a lot of what What came about in in probably my formative years was, um came through the the the American, um media and America to To [00:23:30] to me has never really reflect what what's been natural in in New Zealand, um, to to be gay in in America. You, you, you, you, you've got to form a political kind of stance. It's a political thing just as much as a lifestyle thing. The other film, which I think has had a profound effect on me, was Torch Song trilogy, uh, which I didn't see until I think I [00:24:00] was around about 18. It was when I moved to Wellington and went to university. And, of course, that's an incredible film. II. I watched that a number of times, and I and I think I bought the video of it and I. I kept watching it. I haven't seen it for a couple of years now, but I always enjoy it whenever I do get to see it. And that was probably the first film that was, uh, not only unashamedly gay, um, but it it it. It portrayed gay people as being, uh [00:24:30] able to live as normal and and and lead as normal and happy lives as anyone else. And that was very refreshing. I mean, it's it's a sad story, of course, because, um, one of the main characters, uh, played by Matthew Broderick dies. Um, and and that is very sad. Um, he's he's beaten up by a bunch of thugs in New York. Uh, because they they live in the village. Um, but, um, by and large, I mean, the the the film is very good, and it's and you come out of [00:25:00] it, um, feeling sort of sad, but and contemplative, I suppose. But also thinking that yes, I mean, this is this is the nearest I've seen to to what could be real life, I guess. And, uh, it it makes you feel very good about yourself. I mean, there's there's, there's no apologies. It's just it just is what it is. I guess I remember reading in the evening post last week of of two gay guys living together, um, in Park. And, um, I could really relate to that, um, [00:25:30] in terms of Well, that's pretty normal to me. That's the kind of role model or model that I would have liked to have seen when I was a lot younger. It's about seeing something which you can identify within your own life, Um, reading something that you can identify with you in in your own life and and I guess the beauty of watching it on a movie or reading it in a book. Is that it? It again? It's confirmation that it's OK. It's fine, it's It's normal for you and and and nobody minds about it tonight. [00:26:00] Come, please.

IRN: 207
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/what_did_you_call_me.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003843
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089137
TITLE: What Did You Call Me?
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Michael Moore; Rod McLeod Morrison
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Michael Moore; Rod McLeod Morrison; Wellington; gay; labels; programme; stereotypes
DATE: 19 April 1999
YEAR: 1999
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: A group of gay men reflect on words that are used to describe and define them.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: How do you fit four. Gaze on the chair by turning it upside down. Faggot. Faggot, Faggot, Faggot. A gay male who who's done something wrong? Someone who's annoyed someone because it's always said, Oh, [00:00:30] you a pretty nasty word. Actually, I don't like it very much. It's very derogatory. Uh, it's very much a put down, and I tend to feel that it's used quite often as an insult. And, uh, and it means to hurt and put people down and that I, I just don't like it. Faggot. Um, once, I guess when I first heard this word, I would have have said [00:01:00] that it was a word to do with, uh, pictures of old peasants and Children's drawing books carrying bundles of twigs or bundles of branches. Um, it's a word which I remember, I think probably first hearing at school. Uh, this was a single sex. This is a A Catholic boys, um, secondary school in the 19 seventies, and the word faggot was a term of of abuse, not incredibly common. Much more common effect was the and a much worse term of abuse. Really. Um, and used then was the word Jew. Um, the situation [00:01:30] now I would imagine will be reversed. I'm gay. I always associate gay with being nice and bright and normal and happy and cheerful Everything. That's sort of nice about the world and life. And so I consider myself gay. I also don't mind using the word homosexual because that's who I am. I would define myself probably as gay. Although I don't really tend to, um, [00:02:00] yeah, I have a preference not to put myself in a box. I happen to know that I am homosexual, but yeah, I don't really use the word to define my sexuality, but if I was, it probably would be gay. Uh, I sort of find gay, uh, sort of, uh, it's less sort of harsh than than homosexual. Just not, as you know, that that has sort of old fashioned connotations or something. It's just not, and it's a bit of a mouthful. [00:02:30] Anyway, um, I don't like queer because it means sort of different. And plus it also does, like, encompass the whole sort of gay, lesbian, bisexual transgender away for anything which II. I just prefer gay because it's a simple word, which which is just sort of what I am. Um, some people don't like it because of its negative. Like they think some people think gay. [00:03:00] Oh, no. Have sex in public toilets. Um, let's say next thing. But I don't sort of see gay as that homosexual. This is a very clinical, uh, scientific word I would feel that's used to define, um, somebody who has relationships, um, with somebody of the same sex and defines them quite clinically again. It's not a word I'd use in common conversation, [00:03:30] often homosexual, the clinical word. The word, which is a definition which has been in the past, certainly used against gay people. Um, a word, um, which belongs to, um, the word of doctors or psychiatrists. Um, a word in which other people have sought to define what it means to be gay, homosexual, someone who's I his attraction to [00:04:00] the same sex, Uh, not someone who's questioning war or bisexual, someone who's fully blown full blown to the same sex feelings. To me, that means somebody who is probably very effeminate and probably also in a, uh, probably getting into dressing up as a woman dressing up in female clothes [00:04:30] and almost sort of, uh, being out there on the game selling themselves, giving themselves freely, Um, for some recompense of some kind. Nancy. Probably an odd word for for me. I don't, uh, have any recollection of of, uh, the meaning for this, Um, the images that would conjure up for me is somebody you know who who represents kind of [00:05:00] somebody who dresses like a woman, I guess. A man who dresses like a woman, you know who's who's a Yeah, and I guess that it's a feminine type of word. Nancy, when I think of Nancy, I sort of think some some guy who prances around extremely queeny, lumped pinky finger out. I mean, um, possibly someone who dresses up and and and female [00:05:30] clothes or who wears like, androgynous clothing and stuff or someone who looks completely androgynous, but someone who's very, very effeminate queen rich historical associations with this word. Think of it as being as really 1/19 century word, Um, perhaps even a little bit earlier, I guess. And one which, um, denotes in its New Zealand context, I think, um, a certain way of behaving a certain [00:06:00] kind of campiness, a certain kind of bitchiness, um, a certain kind of, um, set of associations in terms of behaviour. Also, in terms of language I was intrigued on, um, on sort of entering into gay life. Um, at at the, uh, um, sort of older men, um, people who were then in their fifties and older, Um, all of whom seemed to have, um, uh, female, um, nicknames. And, um, and the whole idea of queens. The whole idea of, um, behaving in like a sort of pseudo women was just absolutely [00:06:30] part of the, uh, quite mystique, but certainly part of the practise of what it meant to be gay. Um, I suppose we're operating in a really simple level. It it it allowed people in conversation, for example to say, um oh, did you see Sylvia last night? Um, wasn't she looking absolutely gorgeous when, of course, Sylvia might have been the nickname for, say, Sam. Um and so it was a kind of code language or or or linked into the kind of code language, which was, um, a language of [00:07:00] safety Queen. To me, a queen is a is somebody who is very, very effeminate and flamboyant, uh, probably over the top and almost forcing their who they are and what they are on to other people in such a way as to almost be, uh, obnoxious queen. [00:07:30] And it's it's a cheap kind of impolite, or or maybe even at times, a polite slang on on a, um, on a guy who's who is homosexual, Um, I don't see it as as a put down. It's It's a fun word, I guess, in many ways and in joking or or uh, banter situations, it would be a word that I would feel OK about using. Although II I try to less and less use use languages that that box people, um, or individuals [00:08:00] into family, the people who you're related to and the people you love, but not sort of. I don't when I think of family, I don't Some people use it like, Oh, he's family, referring to someone else who's also gay. I don't like to think of it that way, because family is something which you have A. A tie to family family [00:08:30] is in a gay senses, probably for me. I would use it as a means of identifying with a select close group being unable to sort of be open with my own A blood family, the gay group [00:09:00] and the gay scene as family have replaced that, um, brotherly and sisterly and mother and father type image within my life. Family makes me feel that I am part of a closest community and close group gay. I think this is perhaps partly because of the period in which I learned [00:09:30] about it and came to use it. Um, it seems to me to be very positive and also very all embracing term, um, so planted perhaps by the word queer nowadays for young people nowadays, but, um, still one, which is, um, they've been very usefully shown the power, if you like of, um, using language to redefine yourself and redefine and redefining language and what the word means redefining what it means. Um, you know what? Your own sense of self worth, your own sense of self identity? Ok, [00:10:00] a person who isn't heterosexual. Uh, but not necessarily queer. Someone who who was homosexual but not bisexual but can include men and women gay. It's a word I use probably more common than anything else to describe. Uh, my sexuality now and people of of similar, um something which is quite modern and accepted in my terminology. [00:10:30] Uh, I feel very comfortable using it, I guess, um, as a descriptive kind of word. Define the gay community. Uh, I'd say the gay community in Wellington was fragmented, Quite disjointed. Um, I'd say that they can generally tend to be a bunch of, um, of self obsessed, egocentric jerks. Really? To be [00:11:00] honest, I'm not very fond of the gay community as such. Well, the stereotypical gay community. Yeah, I think they're quite Posy. And, um hm could do with a bit of a reality check. Let's be honest. I don't think the gay community as a community exists. I think that people who are gay are actually too diverse to really be, um, legitimately, Um uh, to fall under a single definition. Like the community community, for example, presumes that you have, um, this community of interest, [00:11:30] that there's enough similarity between people who are gay, uh, in terms of a whole range of social attitudes in terms of class, in terms of interests and so on which I don't actually think is true. I don't consider myself queer. Queer to me means odd and different. And very, um, out of the out of the ordinary and out of the normal. I am not queer. I [00:12:00] consider myself normal. I consider myself ordinary. Um, and I, like other people, think of me that way. What? It's queer to them. It's probably queer to me, so it can be used either way. And I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't like to be called queer just because they're not normal and not the same as me. Someone who's gay, lesbian, trans gendered, bisexual, whatever, even if they're [00:12:30] not quite you know any of those anything that's sort of different from from being heterosexual. So So even someone who's in the closet, even Yeah, that's someone who's not quite someone who's either fully blown homosexual or not Quite heterosexual words love. And, um, I guess it's the one that needs [00:13:00] a big thought, a big question mark after it, probably the most special of all words to use in terms of sexuality, no matter what their sexuality is. It's a word that, uh, you know, I would personally reserve, um and and guard very carefully on on when I use it. Um, it's very important. Probably would probably the most important in our vocabulary and the one with with the most deepest feelings [00:13:30] and emotions attached to it when it's used love Wow, uh, love to me as a meeting of minds and probably personalities as well, coming together and totally being accepted and accepting in all facets and aspects of who you are. Love [00:14:00] when people have a a deep emotional bond to they more than, like six and more like a more than a crush, something that sort of will go on forever. Well, I'm a bit of a romantic, I guess, some something that that's pure and and and that will last [00:14:30] for a long time. The first word I've got is family. Family for me means my family that is my mother and father and my brother and sister and their and my yeah, my direct family grandparents, et cetera, et cetera. Family can also mean for me, it's another way of finding out whether someone's gay. I can say to them, Are you family? And they will either look at me blankly, and I'll know they're not in a gay sense of the word, or I'll become immediately aware that they are homosexual as well, but generally family [00:15:00] is exactly that. Family sex is the next word. Sex is a sexual connection or intercourse between two consenting partners. Love, love is something that is very hard to find. Love is something that I would like to aim for. It is my ultimate goal in a relationship, and I'd like to think that by being in a relationship, I would be in love with somebody queer. Well, [00:15:30] I used to be quite offended by this term. And when I was younger, it certainly used to mean that if someone was queer, they were a bit strange. Very strange indeed, my mother would often say, Well, more recently, she would say, Craig, stop being so queer and I'd say that's because I am and she really didn't appreciate that. But, um, probably nowadays, this word is I've tried to take this word on along with the rest of the community, and, um, I turned it around to be a positive word to describe sexuality, although personally, I would not tend to describe myself as queer, but may refer to other people [00:16:00] as queer because that suits them. But it doesn't necessarily suit me, but I might get there on that word. Well, well, it's not a nice word, and we there is. It is really, for me, a word that I associate with homosexuality. And it's a word that I don't like and don't tend to use. Gay. Well, when I was younger and gay was, of course, when Johnny came marching home, we'd all feel gay, and it meant happy, smiling, friendly things. Now, of course, it can mean lots [00:16:30] of other things, But generally I tend to associate this with my sexuality, and I use it as a word to describe my sexuality. Homosexual. Well, one of the first words I became acquainted with when I was figuring out that I was a bit different than was homosexual. Um, yes, it's a word I will use to describe myself. I will say that I'm a homosexual male. It's a word that I'd use more formally to describe my sexuality. Um, probably if I was being in a friendly mood, I would say gay. But if I'm being quite formal about my sexuality, [00:17:00] I describe myself as homosexual, and it's a word that I associate with male males. It is not a word that I associate with gay females. Faggot. Well, faggot's a bunch of sticks, believe it or not, and it's an interesting word. And even though it's a bunch of sticks, I've never quite figured out how that relates to me and the people around me. But apparently it is a very, very derogatory word to describe a homosexual, and I do find it very derogatory. I'm quite happy to use it myself if need be. But I really don't appreciate [00:17:30] other people using it to describe me. In fact, I'm horrendously offended if someone uses it to describe me. I'm quite happy to use it to describe myself if I'm being silly or stupid, but I believe it is my word. And it is a word that that only the gay community should be able to use to describe themselves. And I would take extreme offence if it was used more generally. And those are all I have time for. These are all the words I have. I have now finished these words. I've done them in a very matter of fact, kind of way. But that's just the mood I'm in. So there you go.

IRN: 153
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/mani_bruce_mitchell_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003844
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089138
TITLE: Mani Bruce Mitchell profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Mani Bruce Mitchell
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 1960s; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Roger Smith; Wai Ho; Wellington; gender identity; intersex; profile; sexuality; transcript online
DATE: 24 February 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Mani talks about being the first out Intersex person in New Zealand. This podcast was funded by a generous donation from Roger Smith.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So here we have Marie Bruce Mitchell. Um, Marie Bruce Mitchell is the first out intersex person in a in New Zealand. Um, and that happened in 1996. How did all that come about, man? Hey, I'm and to everybody. How did that come about? Well, it was a long journey. Um, I was in my mid forties when that happened. And so, yeah, to to talk about the coming out. Really? We have to go back to the beginning. [00:00:30] So born in 1953 um, in Auckland. Actually, even though my parents owned a very remote farm in the middle of the king country, my mom had lost three Children with miscarriages, so she was under the care of a specialist. And this story is now somewhat famous because I've talked about it a number of times, but the only my mom and I only talked about the [00:01:00] circumstances of my birth and my reality once. And I was in my early twenties, asked her what had happened because I had these vague kind of woolly memories that didn't really make sense. And she said, Sure, we were in Auckland staying at Peg and Bob's. She said. My waters broke early in the morning and she's talking in a sort of conversational way like we are now, she said. Dad got up. They drove from into Auckland to the hospital, [00:01:30] met by the matron, apparently a very fierce woman who told mum that she couldn't have her baby yet because there were no doctors in the maternity hospital. So mum and Dad would have been separated. Mom sent down to the birthing unit with a young nurse, and I believe I was born some 20 minutes later and again. Mom's just talking like this conversation and she [00:02:00] said The nurse went down to pick you up. And as my mom's talking, her voice changes and she sort of screams out. The nurse said, Oh my God, it's a hermaphrodite and my mom runs out of the room, so I'm left with, you know, this information, the word hermaphrodite, which at that point in time, this is my early twenties. I didn't understand what it meant, Not really. I certainly didn't relate it to myself. I'm seeing [00:02:30] my mom incredibly upset, and this is a woman of her generation who didn't show emotions, you know? So I'm trying to put all this together. And she was gone for about 10 minutes, and when she came back, she'd been crying. Her eyes were all red. She looked out of the window and it was a very beautiful blue sky. Summer's day of the kind We haven't had much in Wellington this summer. Um, she looks out [00:03:00] and she goes, You know, dear, I think it's going to rain. We better go and get the washing in. So we both went down the steps out to the back of the house, got the washing, and neither she nor I ever talked about it again. Wow. So how did you start coming? Like, where did that conversation even come from? Because you were saying you came out in your forties, but had you kind of you, you'd known before You've been thinking about before. You've been confused before. It was a completely random conversation [00:03:30] or I I recognise. Now, as a child, I tried to make sense of what had happened. Um, I don't have any sense of there ever being a question around what people today would call gender and gender identity. Although I know that how I behaved as a kid from time to time got me into trouble. So I was a tough tomboy [00:04:00] at times because I also like dressing up and playing with dolls. Those two sort of aspects of self, Um, but what? I observed and noticed that when I was in a particularly botch or tomboy phase, my mother would get very agitated. Um, and she during teenage years, which were hideous. She was always, you know, wanting me to have boyfriends. And [00:04:30] I remember one year she bought me makeup for a birthday present. And you know, the these nonspecific desires on her part for me to turn into what we would call a normal girl. And I use that word very cautiously. So you were. You were at the hospital. Your parents were at the hospital and the nurse said, Oh my God, it's a It's a mad you weren't You weren't obviously sent home as Aphrodite like here's [00:05:00] our new baby back to that. So what? What happens? And I've had to fill the gaps in because I didn't have that conversation with my mom. I I'm imagining at that point, you know, the hospitals mobilised so staff would have come running. My mom's probably sedated she So it was like a emergency. Yeah, treated like an emergency. I'm taken away and there would have been the first of many very [00:05:30] invasive examinations. So? So let's be clear to people what's going on. Maybe wow, um, the the more commonly commonly used term as intersex and we have. It's a medical umbrella term that covers all kinds of conditions, and it's on a continuum. So at one end a. A baby would look completely normally male or female [00:06:00] at at the other end of the continuum, you would look at the genitalia and not be totally sure, you know, and it's interesting this binary world of ours. Um, apparently you have to be male or female. It makes everybody happy. So at the time I was born in 1953 the paradigm that was still largely operating here in New Zealand was a Victorian one, [00:06:30] and the thinking was derived from medical legal thinking, and it went something like that. It was considered inappropriate to deny the rights and privileges to somebody who may potentially be male. OK, so under that paradigm, uh, Children who for whom the genitalia was ambiguous. That's the term that's used were largely assigned male. So my [00:07:00] parents took home a male child with the with the name Bruce Mitchell lead. And that's how I lived. For the first year of my life, however, things weren't completely, um, normal. I would have had what was considered a small Penis, and probably it was assumed undescended testes. So just before my first birthday, I went back to Auckland for another medical procedure [00:07:30] where they quite literally cut me open, Um, and otherwise healthy. Oh, totally. Yeah. So this is, you know, this is huge invasive surgery. Basically pulled on my gut out on a little baby. Um, and inside they found a uterus. So in a 24 hour period, I went from being my parent's son future all black inheritor of the farm to being their daughter in somebody's [00:08:00] future bride, you know, And my poor parents with as far as I can work out no psychological support at all. Um, so they went up with Brace, and they they came back with with Margaret, you know, huge I. I have reached the place where I can just think what that was like for them, Which is good, because there were many years where I was very angry at my parents. And, um thankfully, [00:08:30] they went to life because I would have hated what I would have done to them if if they had been around as I tried to figure all this out and make sense of it. So you travel quite a bit money. And, um, you were saying that a trip a trip to America was really was all major for you? When was that? OK, so, um, you know, you asked me before how this had gone, So I have these periods of time in my life where I try to get information and make sense. And like when [00:09:00] I got that word Hermaphrodite I. I actually couldn't find a place to hold that in my reality after my mom died. And it's about 24 years ago now, um, she left a whole lot of documents, a very organised person for all of us, and and, um, my pie was my Plunket book, and it was one day when I was going through that I found a It's It's weird. It's a shame we haven't got it to look at, but it's somebody with has very carefully cut bits out of it, [00:09:30] and and what I think happened is my mom went through that book and I think she thought she had removed all the references to my being different. But there's two that are still in there. So there's one. I think I'm aged about six months, and it says, nice wee lad. And then just before my first birthday, it says sex. Um, seen by doctor blah, blah, blah sex determined as female. Now, when I read that and realised that was a book about me, like I just ran into this wall, [00:10:00] you know, I had grown. I I'd grown up on a farm. Um, I'd been inculcated with our culture that said that you were either male or female, you know? So how could I hold this information? And And the other thing I couldn't work out is how the hell could someone make a mistake? Because at that point, I didn't know anything about ambiguous genitalia. You know, I, I just thought that Children were born, you know, with genitals that look typically male or typically [00:10:30] female. So you know, I, I that that's a journey, and I get little bits of information, and sometimes I can hold it. And sometimes I just pack it sort of deep in my head. Um, but in in my late thirties, it gets harder and harder. Um, and what I would recognise now, as I was suffering from a form of depression, I become quite suicidal. [00:11:00] Um, and thank God I had a neighbour a a person that I had a lot of time and I happened to talk to this person just randomly about some of the stuff that was going on, and she picked up on enough of it and said, I think you need to see he rodenberg who was a fabulous, um, doctor is still alive at the time she practised in the hut. So I in those [00:11:30] days I worked for the regional council, and it's funny to think, because we didn't do our own typing. We had typists to type for us. You know, this is pre computers. Um, and there was a fabulous person in the typing pool who's still a close friend, and I asked Gay if she had type a personal letter for me, and she said, Sure, mate. We'll do it after work. And so we sat and do you know, it took five hours to type that letter. And, you know, I will always hold [00:12:00] gay close to my heart because she did that leather without blinking, you know, And I'm trying. That was my first attempt to try and put what I knew to words. Yeah, it's interesting to think about now how hard that was. Anyway, this letter went off, and I unfortunately don't have a copy of it. Um, and and he got the letter and she had what's called called a closed practise. But she contacted me and said she would [00:12:30] see me once, So I went out and that amazing doctor saw me that first time for an hour and a half. And she would tell me later that she herself didn't know what intersex was. She carried out a very gentle and, um, pro was probably the first time in my life that a doctor had touched me in a respectful way. You know, that in itself was so healing. And really, that's the start of the journey. [00:13:00] So through I, um, started going to Elizabeth Kubler Ross workshops which were therapeutic. They were weeklong, intensive, live in workshops for people who had experienced significant trauma in their lives. And that's really where I start to learn, You know, some basic tools that that really anchored me as a person and and because it I I used to joke and say [00:13:30] I was a head that towed a body around. It's not really very funny to me anymore, but that's what it was like. I. I lived completely out of my body, Um, what we would call being emotionally illiterate. So you know, I, I start, I start the journey and it's really once I become a bit more anchored and self, Um, and start realising that you're actually entitled to a good life, [00:14:00] that I start my own research. And so, um, it was a friend, Jenny Rowan, who's now mayor of Coast. Um had been at a conference and she overheard someone talking about intersex in America. And so Jenny knew enough about my story to go. I think this is someone that you need to [00:14:30] be in touch. So I wrote to the organisation in America. Um, which is funny when I say organisation because in those days. It was just one person, and Cheryl wrote to me and we exchanged letters and then invited me to well, invited lots of people, um, to go to California for the first retreat. Wow. And that's the the first ever intersex retreat in the world in the world in the world. And [00:15:00] you know that for me was life changing because I what year was that? That's 96 96. Um, that's the first time that I meet other people I had prior to America, um, managed with support and help to get access to medical books. But there are appallingly hideous way to try and work out who the hell you are. I mean, this is pathology, [00:15:30] um, photographs of people with their eyes blanked out and standing naked and their, you know, different bodies on display. So for me to meet another person, I, I recognise one of the things that has happened to intersex people is we have no echo, no mirror and one of the things that you need as you're growing up as a developmental sequence. And I think a similar thing happens to many trans [00:16:00] people as well. You know, you don't have that echo there. Isn't that this is what that reflection To see yourself totally. And so you know that that 10 days that I was away in America and hanging out with other intersex people and hearing these stories was transforming. So, you know, I came back and and made a decision to set up a similar organisation to is, um, it's changed and evolved [00:16:30] over the years. It's become these days exclusively an educational training organisation. In the early days, I tried to have it more as a peer support organisation, but we didn't have the resources. We didn't have the trained people to to manage that. Cool. So tell me a little bit about your work now. So you work as a a counsellor who's your client base, and and you've also you've just come back from a weekend in Hamilton. Um, for a real massive exhibition, Can you tell me? Tell us a bit about that. Well, I mean, [00:17:00] my life has completely changed. So, um, around about that time that I first went to see, you know, I was coping all right emotionally because, as I have explained, I was completely cut off from my emotions. So I functioned very sort of cognitively in my head, but it was really affecting my physical body. And so I had something like a a physical breakdown [00:17:30] and had to leave my job. And in those days I was in a very good, very well paid job. And so trying to work out how I could, um, resurrect a career and I'd been working in civil defence and the area I'd been really interested in was critical incident stress management, which is really interesting because I never thought that it was about me. I always thought it was about looking after my staff, [00:18:00] though I realised now obviously there was part of me that was trying to understand. And so it was fairly, um, obvious. Once I started thinking about it that I could retrain as a counsellor and pull across some of those skills and knowledge, which is what I did. I retrained as a counsellor. Um, I've had a very small, private practise for years. Um, it always ran out a lot and I didn't see [00:18:30] lots of people. But then I think three years ago I was made redundant from my main job and you know, had to face what I was going to do. And I made the decision that I'd always wanted to have, um, this private practise and do more work in this area. And it just seemed like the right the right time to do that. So I do. I have a a private practise. Um, I have a spec. I've developed [00:19:00] a specialty, working with people with gender issues, Um, people who are struggling with difference, and that comes in many forms. It's not just around gender and gender identity and sexual orientation. There's many people for home being different. It's hard. Is quite a large education part there, or is it quite separate from Well, you know, I My [00:19:30] original training was as a teacher, and it's funny because I spend a lot of my life avoiding or trying to get away from that. And one of the really nice things that's happened is, you know, I've I've actually accepted that I like teaching. I'm actually quite good at it. And there's a huge amount of, um, training and education that needs to occur in this area. Um, we live in this still, you know, some things have changed But some things haven't that we [00:20:00] live in a very binary, um, Eurocentric world, and it's actually a a poor capture of humanity. I think humans are far more diverse than that simple model would lead us to believe. And one of the things that really interests me and in my research that I've done is many so called Third World countries [00:20:30] have cultures where gender is captured in a much more complex way than the West has. In fact, here in the Pacific, um, we have examples of that. And so I I see, um, actually the West, who likes to think that they're the most advanced about everything. Um, not very well advanced in the area [00:21:00] of gender and diversity. But it's changing. That's the good and exciting thing. And you assume nothing exhibition that you've you've just been up to in in Hamilton. That's that's that's played a massive part, I think, in all huge. So, um, photographer Rebecca Swan originally took these amazing photographs that became part of a coffee table book called Assume Nothing, [00:21:30] and it is a AAA book that captures, um Gen gender diversity, not just the because there's people from all around the planet and that book, though the majority of people would be from. And when the book was launched, the book launch was seen by a filmmaker, Kirsty McDonald, who approached Rebecca to see if she could bake a documentary [00:22:00] film about assume. Nothing for several years went by and and that project, you know, developed into something. Um, that's more than that. It certainly does capture the process of Rebecca working with people, which is wonderful. She's an extraordinary person, but but the assume nothing film, I think, has has another layer and and if you like photography is two dimensional, and Kirsty [00:22:30] film really made this a three dimensional reality. Now the here and and and Lower hut picked up on this and in 2007, I think 2000 No. 2008, um, the first exhibition opened, and that exhibition has gone on and travelled. So it's it's been in. [00:23:00] It was the longest running in the house, and then it went to Auckland to Christchurch, Palmerston North and finished in in Hamilton. You know, and I'm so proud because for people who have seen the exhibition, um, a lot of the images involve what people would call nudity. So beautiful, stunning photographs of people without clothes [00:23:30] on. And yet that's not what it's about. It's about this astonishing celebration of human difference, and I think it's how Beck has taken those photographs. And, as I say, amplified by Kirstie's beautiful film Making This exhibition has been a very safe way, and and I like what you said, how huge it's been because I don't know how many 1000 people now have seen, but I'm imagining it's [00:24:00] getting up there. Probably over 500,000 people. I don't know. Huge numbers have been through where the exhibition has been, you know, and and it's been a a safe and gentle way for people to explore what many people find very scary. I think there's something core in humans when we're around something we don't understand. It's frightening, Um, and that that exhibition has probably [00:24:30] meant that there'll be some young people grow up in who who don't have to have the experience that I've had and many other people have had. You know, I've, um of it being frightening of not getting the appropriate support. So do you think what happened to you as a as a as a baby in the fifties, Would that still happen today? Um, sadly, it could still easily happen today. It would depend very much on the household [00:25:00] that you were born into the computer literacy of your parents. Um, how comfortable they are with difference. And the other key ingredient is the medical people involved. So the, you know, the midwife, the the specialists, Um, I'm pleased to say that there are people who are doing it differently in in this country. But there's also people still in that old old paradigm. And there's [00:25:30] still parents who are freaked out having a child who's different. So on On one side, parents will say, you know, they just want the best for their Children, and I believe that's largely true. But there's also that sort of black underbelly side. Um, what used to talk about is the shadow, where people are more concerned. What are the neighbours going to think? Um, you know, how could you do this to the family? And, you know, all [00:26:00] clear identifying people certainly know about that. Yeah. So you've done heaps of Yeah, I've been to heaps of the education stuff that you've done, um, within diverse queer communities as well as in mainstream as well. And so a lot of your your client base will be part of kind of diverse queer communities. How do you think you know? Is there? Is there a Wellington queer community is there in New Zealand, I tell all the communities diverse communities. And, um if there are, um, [00:26:30] yeah, what? What's he kind of What? What could we all be doing better or where do you see as heading or nice questions? Um, I think the thing that's really changed for me is these days, I'm very comfortable in my own skin, and I have fun doing this. So there's an element of celebration and playfulness, so I do not try to pass. [00:27:00] So this is a radio interview. And for people who don't know me, I have facial hair. You can't describe it as a beard because it's not that substantive, but it's facial hair. Um, I don't wear standard conforming clothes, and I like, you know, and I'm doing more and more of that, so I always wear a tie, but you might find me a tie with a pink shirt um, you know, wearing jewellery with, you know, things [00:27:30] that would be assumed to be masculine. And and there's there's a level of deliberateness about it. But there's also just, um yeah, me being playful and and wearing things that I like wearing hard to do because they're not easily close to find, You know, you go into clothes shops and it's amazing how conforming Just you know what? The mass market is around, what's available for people to buy. Um, so [00:28:00] I think that's the key. And, you know, my parents gave me some really good things, and one of the things that my dad gave me genetically is a sense of humour. Um, thank God. Cool. Um, we we can do better. I think the queer community is quite tough on itself. Or probably more accurately, we should say queer communities. [00:28:30] Um, it's interesting. I think minority groupings right across all cultures and sort of start to have rolls that are even fiercer than mainstream sometimes. So I see that, um, so kind of about policing, you know, there's a right way to do things. Um, and I guess where I'm coming from is [00:29:00] I want people to pull forth. You know this unique, beautiful being, whoever they are, and I and I don't see that conforming to some kind of railway track conformist notion of of, you know that that people have to dress a certain way or, you know, wear certain kind of clothes to pass. That's to me. That's sad. Um, I love welling living here in Wellington because I think it's much easier [00:29:30] to be ourselves here. It was interesting being in Hamilton. I had a very warm reception up there and met some fabulous people. But what I noticed is walking around the town. People stared at me all the time and people would talk, you know, as you're going down the street. Oh, you see that? But a really nice thing. It happened. I was walking near the, um, technical institute and there were some young people sitting at a table and I I'd gone past and it seemed weird to stop, [00:30:00] so I just carried on. But I was out of I. I counted and this young Maori guy went. Man, see that gender chick and it was said in a really kind of positive, excited way. That was probably the nicest thing. Most of the comments were more in the sort of shock. Um, and it's just an important reminder because we can forget, you know, what Wellington gives us, And it is that [00:30:30] ability to be ourselves and relative. When I say relative safety, I would be pretty careful about where I walked around at night by myself. Yeah, so? So, gender chick, that's I haven't heard that term. So you got We've got GL BT I and I think sometimes it's been extended to GL BT I TT QF or something keeping on and on and on. But the terms are changing, and young people are using using different terms that I just I like that. And I see [00:31:00] that in some of the people that I am working with, um, that's a real deconstruction, and they wouldn't use that academic term. Um, and it gives me hope, because it does not seem to be as rule bound. So people really sort of doing that. Who am I and pulling that forth? Um, I get excited by that, you know, and and, dear God, we need to attend to the language because it is so restricting. [00:31:30] Yeah, so Maybe we just get back to a, You know, a simple word like queer, though I know how how older people hate that term. Yeah. Um what would I like to see us? I'd like to see us be more gentle with each other more supporting, um, celebrating more. Hm. [00:32:00] Um, anything else? I'm very excited by the gay games coming here. Are you Are you planning on playing anything? Um, not at this point. You know, I certainly plan to be involved. Um, but it's probably going to be more in the sort of social educational component. It's interesting. I. I was AAA runner and not a bad [00:32:30] runner when I was at high school, but I think my running days might be passed. Awesome. Thank you very much, man. Bruce, for sharing with us. Cool.

IRN: 155
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/paul_diamond_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003845
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089139
TITLE: Paul Diamond profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Paul Diamond
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: Paul Diamond; Wellington; archives; coming out; gay; media; profile; takatāpui; writing
DATE: 3 February 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Paul talks about his careers as a writer, journalist and historian.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Paul Diamond. Historian, writer and journalist. You be You sound very, very busy. Yeah, yeah. I, I I'm I'm sort of working freelance on all sorts of different projects now, so, yeah, I I It is kind of busy. It's an interesting, um, it's interesting. No I. I finished working full time last February, so February 2009 as an oral historian. But since then, I'm doing all sorts of different writing, journalism, oral history, different all sorts of different projects. So, yeah, it's a good mix of man of many. [00:00:30] And do they fit into each other quite well, or Yeah, they, um I guess when you're freelance, you've got the opportunity to do things that you're interested in that suit. You different, um, things you're passionate about? Yeah. So they they to do with, you know, a lot of them are to do with reading and writing. Um, so, you know, I help out with, um, assessing, uh, you know, applications for literary stuff and help with the writers festival, which is part of the International Arts Festival. Um, also [00:01:00] doing my own writing, um, doing oral history, doing oral history, abstracting and then a few little. Yeah, And there's a bit of queer queer research there as well. Yeah. Have you always been into writing and reading and that kind of thing from a from a one or Yeah, I think I've been, um, interested in reading for a long time. And I remember, you know, growing up in Stokes Valley and being growled at by the librarian for taking out too many nonfiction books. She was worried about me that, you know, that I should be not just doing nonfiction, but I should be reading fiction as well. [00:01:30] Um, and from like a lot of kids, you know, you just get interested, obsessed, really with, with a thing, a topic. So it was, you know, I had a dinosaur phase, like a lot of people do, and I had an Egyptology phase like a lot of people do. But that's kind of continued. Really. I sort of just get interested in a in a topic. So I've been lucky to have jobs where that's been encouraged and been part of it, you know? So I did. I worked as a journalist and worked as a producer in radio. Um, and I was lucky enough in radio to do long form documentaries. [00:02:00] Um, so that meant long interviews. And that was sort of how I ended up getting involved in oral history because that's very similar. The stuff I was doing was sort of social history. I did AAA documentary series. That was a history of the protest group. Um, because it was the 30th anniversary of their first protest at Waitangi. So I went around and talked to some of the old members about what they thought about, you know, the protest then and now and then combined that with archival stuff and have your family always been really supportive of what you've done kind of reading and writing wise. [00:02:30] Were you kind of Were you considered geeky or what? Your family and, um, I I'm not, you know, both my parents were teachers, so they you know, So reading wasn't sort of an too odd thing to be doing, Um, and particularly my mom's family. It was a thing to be encour that they encouraged. Um, and in fact, you know, now I hardly watch any TV because I just There's just so much I'm needing to read for my work and then for book reviewing that I'm doing and and just it's just something I do [00:03:00] for leisure as well. I'm also a judge for this year's, um, New Zealand Post Book Awards as well. So reading 100 and 60 books as well as what I was reading. That's quite a lot. That's quite a lot. So you grew up in the Stokes Valley I was born in, which is a little place, um, in the South. And the reason I was born there was because my father's family were living in a mill town called, which was really small, built around a timber mill. And that's where my father's family lived when my parents got married, [00:03:30] so my father actually decided to teach. He ran. He was in the school tiny wee school there, and my mother actually taught there as well. So until I was about four, we lived there. And, um, I guess it was a bit strange for my mother going back to where you know her In-laws live. But, um, but, you know, that's probably why she's so close to my dad's. She was so close to my dad's brothers and sisters, um and but we came down here. Um, I don't know why my father applied for a job down here, but he applied for a job [00:04:00] in Stokes Valley. And so he was a primary teacher, and we lived in Stokes Valley. So I've lived here ever since then. So that was in the early seventies. We moved down here. So I'm a valley boy or Wellington. You know who you talk to? Yes. And coming out. Did you know were your family all right about it or when did you know or were you always known? Or, um, I probably like a lot of people you know, knew fairly early on, but, um didn't come out of school, and [00:04:30] it was a different environment. So, you know, I was at school. I was at intermediate, um, sort of 79 80. And then I was at school from no. 70 79 80. Then that's at, um, secondary school from 81 to 85. So you're talking just before law reform. So I remember the law reform protests, and we actually weren't allowed to go to those because our parents were anxious because of the Springbok tour. You see, because I think people had sort of, you know, that was a new thing. [00:05:00] Um, the violence at those protests And I think with the law, reform things, you know, we were just teenagers, and we were sort of pretty protected, I think. I mean, um, not many of us could drive, so we used trains and buses and stuff, or we had parents who Ferried us around, so we maybe weren't as independent. I mean, we had a few of us who had licences, and and we love them because they could do things, like take us to the penthouse cinema completely exotic. So [00:05:30] I think I you know, and I remember devotions going on but didn't go to them, you know? And And it was also, you know, AIDS was, um um you know, the those are the plague. So there was all that anxiety as well, because, you know, the virus was in a very different space to what it is now. Um, so So with all that stuff going on, what were your parents? Just like, Hey, but sheltered from it or keep keep you out of that young son came out of it, or was it kind of lots [00:06:00] of messages around. No, it didn't come up. You know, this is the thing, because I didn't raise it because I just channelled my energy into, um, you know, doing quite well at school, working hard, doing all the other stuff at school, like drama and debating and playing hockey. And, you know, so it did really well, I had a great great time at school, and I also had a group of friends who are None of them are gay, but but they were all quite bright. We had streaming, and we were all in the same stream at school. And they, um they weren't really into relationships. [00:06:30] So see, there wasn't that pressure to be in a relationship, so it sort of didn't come up. And we just had these very intense friendships with each other, so we sort of hung out with each other. We saw each other on the holidays, and and we were all lab assistants. Yeah, it is kind of geeky being a LA, But being a lab assistant was great because it meant you could, um you could, um, be in the science labs at lunch time. And and you see that protected us a lot because, you know, even being tall, I got [00:07:00] would get bullied and, uh, well, just hassled and and I don't know, kids zero on on anything that's different. And so I was tall, which, and I then hated being tall. Now, I love it, but, um, but then it was because it was like, you know, you were singled out and I may have been a bit, you know, there might have been a I might have been a bit effeminate. I don't know. Um, it was probably just a bit neat and and so that sort of marks you out of it. So but but we could sort of hide from them and and I know my mother said she thought that we [00:07:30] had not really had a very typical education because we actually hadn't had to mix with a broad cross section of kids like my brother. I have one brother who's three years younger than me and yeah, and there's just two of us. And he'd had a very different experience of school and and did really well, but in different things. Like he was the captain of the 1st 15 and he was head boy, in a sense, you know, Um, so we've done different things at school, but she's probably right. But in the in a sense, it kind of, um I'm grateful for it, because it sort of [00:08:00] meant that I just got through that whole experience and didn't really wasn't sort of too fearful, you know, Which I think you could. And it and it certainly. Yeah, well, that meant I didn't really have to address the sexuality thing. I just basically, and even through university, I didn't didn't either. But it was kind of becoming a bit obvious, especially you. You didn't bring it up, but were there kind of messages, I guess, Because of, you know, the AIDS thing and homosexual law reform. There was Was there a lot of stuff kind of flying around in the public around what gay men were meant to be like? Or did you hear any of that [00:08:30] or you just in your science lab? It was really sort of. Yeah. It's funny, isn't it? That I, I actually I sort of was aware, and I think if I probably you know, I probably knew I was gay, but I sort of wasn't doing anything about it. And, um I, I do remember, um Flatting. So it's it's after I'd graduated from university. So you'd be talking about the well through the Yeah. I mean, this is the early nineties. I mean, because I didn't really come out until I was in my mid twenties, and but I just kind of felt the need to [00:09:00] No, no. And I think was sort of repressing it. In retrospect, because I remember doing a video for a flatmate. We had a flatmate who was in Zimbabwe, and we all got together and did a video of him. And I remember looking at the video of me, and, uh, it's always hard seeing yourself on video, but I That's when I thought, Oh, that guy is not at ease, you know, in his own skin. And that's when I think I sort of thought, no, I need to do something. So, yeah, I started reading. I remember reading, um, dangerous desires. Pe Peter Wells's book. I I've got a [00:09:30] really close friend who, uh, is the same age as me. But he came out 10 years before me. And so once I did come out. He was really like my fairy godmother, Really? And and so he and I knew of him. We've both grown up in lower Hutt. Uh, but he'd spent some time at school overseas in Canada, and and I think it'd come out then. But, um, and I'd heard about him when I was at university because I knew some of his friends and he was pretty notorious, you know, because it was it was a radical thing because, you know, law reform is only [00:10:00] just going through you. And the whole notion of gay teachers was pretty radical. And I, you know, being the child of teachers, I remember my mother sort of saying, you know, that would be tricky, you know? And it, you know, it could, um it would be a tricky thing for for someone to be out. So it just shows how far things have changed. Yeah, I've always thought about how weird it must be for something to be considered. I guess my prostitution was like that, but something or a group of people to be considered illegal or whatever. And then, you [00:10:30] know, and then they're not illegal. And because I was I would have been five or something when that happened. But as an adult, I guess another lesson is that things can flip both ways. I suppose is one of the lessons that I guess you do have to keep, you know, being aware, uh, and vigilant. But I can't believe how much it's changed in such a short space of time. Because you see all these things followed on once you'd had the decriminalisation, then the teaching and the and there's a guy Shane Town, who I don't I don't really know him very well. He might [00:11:00] have been a little bit older than me who was, you know, gays and lesbians in education everywhere. And I just remember how brave they were because they were talking about being out as gay teachers, you know, before law reform. I think even now I know lots of teachers find it. It's much easier. I'm sure it's much easier now. I mean, now there are, um now there are school groups, you know, that that have been going for a while now. I mean, it's now it's the same as it is for straight teachers that you've got to observe professional, ethical rules and boundaries, [00:11:30] so it really is no different. I mean, it's, you know, So there was always that issue with, you know, straight men and young girls. And you know, So it's now it's just like that. I mean, it's you just have to observe the same ethical rules, So yeah, And so when I finally did, you know, come out. It was kind of most people were saying, Oh, you know, we wonder when you do so But you see, I guess I'm lucky that the climate change, because if it had been 10 years earlier, it would have been a different sort of thing, I suppose, because if it had still been illegal, [00:12:00] it would have been different. But it was sort of like, Well, 10 years on from law reform, what's the big deal? Yeah, So it was a bit of a non offender people like Oh, no, my mother was, um but we you know, But she was just concerned about, um I've seen this in other families. You know, where people are just concerned about their kids getting hurt, You know, um, and that they might be letting themselves in for a hard life. harder life than they might. She never talked about the grandchildren thing. Uh, it was a great relief [00:12:30] when my brother had a take the pressure off, Uh, and and that is incredibly special. And my mother died in 2008, and that's one of the odd things about the grief from that is it makes you think about, you know, legacy stuff and and grandkids and all that sort of stuff. It's interesting you don't I didn't expect to start thinking about all that again, but no, they were. They were really good and really supportive. And then it's a sort of another coming out when you get into relationships as well. So in the in, the partner I met [00:13:00] was about, you know, 6, 16, 17 years ago. They both got on really well with, um, he's He's older than me. He's 17 years older than me, so he's closer to being a peer of theirs. So perhaps that might have been a reason why, um, they got on, but, you know, they found it easy to get on with them. But I've been pretty lucky and then in my extended family, have been really, really good. Yeah. And I've got all sorts of gay relatives on my dad's side, the Maori side, which is really cool as well. And, um, yeah, I've got a gay [00:13:30] uncle in Sydney, and his partner said years ago that he loved coming back to New Zealand because the family extended family was so warm and welcoming. He said it was like you could feel the love coming out of the walls and I. I just thought it was such a lovely phrase. Yeah, And I saw them a few months ago, um, last year and you know, so I'm very lucky, I think to have come from there's never really been any, um, no, you know, any rejection or hostility? Yeah. So you you're doing readers and writers, and [00:14:00] I know that you, um you've written a few books for and published by and you've done lots of oral history stuff. Um, has it has it always been around kind of LGBTI you know, queer communities or just kind of flicks in and out or overlaps? Or I think it's it's just like one of those things that you know, you, um, for me, the things I get drawn to are linked in with bits of my background. So, you know, I did a biography of a woman called [00:14:30] Who had an English father and a Maori mother and was a She became a very famous guide at and went to Oxford and, um married an Englishman over there and then divorced him and then went to study at Oxford. And And I can't I really think the reason I was drawn to that story for me was that it's the biracial thing being a half cast, as they were known then, um and I'm working on a story at the moment about a a man who was the mayor of [00:15:00] WHANGANUI in 1920 was being blackmailed because he was gay. And he shot someone who was blackmailing him and went to prison and then went to, um, England became a journalist. And then he got shot covering a riot in Germany. So and people have said to me, You know, why are you interested in that story? And it's it's not your family, it's not. You know, um, and I think there is something to do. There could be something about the journalist thing, but I think it's to do with the gay thing. I think it's just about a a curiosity about other gay lives. [00:15:30] Um, I think you have to be curious to do the things I've done. But I think sometimes gay people are often curious about what's it like for other people to be gay? And what's it been like in other times to be gay? And, you know, we were talking about how things have changed in our memory. Well, see, I'm I'm trying to understand what it was like in the early 20th century, and I think you it's completely invisible. And I think there's no notion of this binary, gay straight thing. I think [00:16:00] you know, men have sex with men, but they may not have identified anything like how we identify. So it's more of kind of a behaviour, something you do as opposed to an identity. This is well, there is that theory, isn't there about your orientation, your behaviour and what's the other one? They're not all necessarily the same. So I've been in touch a lot with Chris Brickle, who did the mates and lovers the history of male homosexuality, and it's been great talking to him, and it's great that he did that work because it's like, you know, the work that people like [00:16:30] Gareth, um, Watkins and Mark Beer are doing. It's a wonderful base to build on, you know, And I think there's lots of stuff that's possible because of that, that base stuff that these guys are doing. Um, the I did a book on Maori leadership for, uh and that was tied in with a radio series about Maori leadership. The another thing that I did for there was a essay in a, um, book on indigenous sexuality. And there was a article looking at how a story that I spotted when [00:17:00] I was researching the mayor story about a Maori man who'd been, um, taken to court because he dressed up as a woman to work as a housemate and and for a family in Auckland and how that was reported. So it's amazing when you research, you know, you find of research, you know, you find all these other stories that that are interesting to follow up. Um, So what I did was I sort of tried to contrast how that was covered and then looked at this show that was on Maori TV, Um, and just contrasting the two sort of things [00:17:30] you know, over the two time periods. It's interesting, isn't it, that the is not now happening. So sometimes we have these things and they are just sort of moments and time. And then they go, you know, now we don't have an indigenous queer presence in the media. Um, like we did. So you know, it's like when Dame Sylvia was a Cartwright was asked about having a New Zealand, you know, they said, Gosh, New Zealand's got, you know, a woman. Chief justice. It's got a woman Prime minister. It's got a woman governor and she said, You know, these are just moments in time. We shouldn't get complacent [00:18:00] and, you know, and she's right. I mean, we now don't have a woman, Prime Minister. I mean, we now don't have a woman. Governor General, we still have a woman chief justice, But she's right. These things, you know, are not necessarily. You shouldn't really get complacent. So what's kind of changed or for better, for worse or and, you know, for want of better terms LGBTI communities, or where would you Where would you like to see stuff headed or what other moments in time would you like to see happen? This this friend of a really good friend of mine who's the same age. But we came [00:18:30] out 10 years apart. I learn a lot by talking to him about what things were like those years, you know, when I was really just busy at school and at university and stuff and not really involved in the community much. And I think we've lost. There are things we've gained, you know, there's a lot more openness. I mean, we've got the legal protections. Now we've got things like civil unions, but you listen to some older gay people talk, and it's, you know, there was. It was like things were like a secret society. You know, um, [00:19:00] who used to work with Gareth and I at Radio New Zealand, you know, So an older gay Maori man used to talk about a place on road, and he used to used to have to do a special knock on the door. And, you know, they looked at you and they let you in And I, I wonder if we sort of missed that because A it makes it easier to find people. Um, and and and it's sort of a you know, it's a it's a you. Perhaps your identity is different, whereas in Wellington things are so integrated [00:19:30] and diffuse. Um, because people go to, um I mean, we've had guest speakers at the outtakes and they go, Oh, here's where you all are, you know? So where are you all the rest of the year? Um, I do wonder about what is what are the things that bring us together. So I admire the people who do things like, um, the devious dance party and the Out in the square. And And that's why that we've been part of is a great thing. I think things like that are really special because, yeah, I mean, otherwise you I mean, things [00:20:00] like the gay welfare group I mean have come out of, um, you know, other. The push for law reform and and aids, I mean, was a big rallying thing. But I do sort of wonder, you know, what is it that that brings us together? And sometimes in Wellington you feel like you know everybody who's queer and Then you find there are whole pocket pockets of different age groups, different ethnicities, different backgrounds. And I think that's quite exciting, really. But But, yeah, I think that's something we've sort of lost is it's It's almost like a double whammy. It's almost like you. [00:20:30] You know, you're considered a minority or a, you know, living on the margins or whatever, and, um and then there's all that. We're just like you kind of stuff. And then when laws changes and attitudes change a lot of the time, people are just like everybody else. And so they go to, you know, whatever. And I've heard people say also about Wellington that, um, yeah, that that queer people or LGBTI people just go anywhere, you know, they go to the whatever bars don't necessarily go to the gay bars and that kind of thing. So it's kind of it can be more kind [00:21:00] of spread out. And then you have that. I guess that, um, loss of a not loss maybe, but the lack of of a real hub or a real kind of coming together thing, which is yeah, I find it really interesting as well, which is why things like outtakes are great in winter. Um, you know, and a lot of people are getting behind the out games thing at the moment, which is, which is a great thing. The Lions group. I mean, II. I just wonder how I think it must be easier for for young people now, because it's so they're growing up in this completely different environment. I. I [00:21:30] always wonder, you know, what would I be doing if I was at college now, in the, you know, would I be trotting off to the Queer Group and at Huval High or whatever, Or or would I be just the same as I was? I don't know. It would be interesting to know, because it's such a different sort of context. In a way, I'm sort of relieved that I didn't because, you know, by the time I did, I was a lot older and more assertive and because there was always that worry that, you know, with those being the AIDS is that you know, you were pretty vulnerable. And if you had sort of got into [00:22:00] a, you know, unsafe situations and stuff and, you know, um, different partners You were very vulnerable, especially if you were younger and not you know that assertive. And so I guess that's how you do have to live, isn't it? I mean, you can't You can't really regret the way things have turned out. But on balance, I think, um, I think it's really good where we're at now. And I think it's really good that we've got you know, you've got green. It's a bit like Maori. I mean, you, you can be green, you can be [00:22:30] right wing, you can be left wing, You can be into workers rights. You can be, you know so And that's probably what we've always been like. Heaps of kind of multiplicities and and that kind of thing. I always used to say that if you listen to gay people talk, you can hear either them saying I'm fighting for the right to be different or I'm fighting for the right to be like everyone else. That's just what you were saying. Um, mainstreaming, I suppose, this sort of thing, Um where do I stand on that I? I think there is a I think there are. There are [00:23:00] different things, you know, There are there are cultural differences, I reckon. I, I really do. I think between queer people and non queer people. I think it changes your outlook on the world. And, uh, there's a Mark Doty who's a fantastic American poet and essay. Uh, memoirist, who's said in a quote, you know, that has been queer, affects his whole outlook. It affects the way he engages with the world and and I, I think that's right, actually. And so that's why I sort of, you know, part of me sort [00:23:30] of thinks, Oh, I wonder what it would have been like, you know, to have the Dorian Club and all these things that have gone now, Uh, but I you know, I've just signed up for a gay men's book group, and if I could sing, I'd be trotting along to the choir. And, you know, uh, so these things are around. I mean, we can make our own communities, and I suppose we don't have to do it covertly. Um, so I suppose on balance, you know, um, we're in a good space. What would I like to see more of? I don't [00:24:00] know, I. I just, um Yeah, that's a that's a hard question. I mean, I just think, um, it's Wellington is unusual, I think because you've just got so many, um, options here and so many. I mean, I that's why I think I'd struggle living anywhere else. Uh, no, I can't think of anything that, um I think you just have to be You have to be vigilant, though I think you have to not be complacent. And, um So that's why I think it's great [00:24:30] that rainbow Wellington have been convening that discussion about the blood donations. Um, you know, and that and and it's really great that we've got MP S all over and most of the parties now you know who are who who are, you know, can be openly gay. And we've got that sort of presence there as well. And that link into the policy making and stuff. Um, yeah, I guess that would just be The main thing is really just not, um, not being complacent and also looking for the opportunities for us to tell our own [00:25:00] stories in our own way. Yeah, that's really important, because I think a lot of it's for me. It's really interesting how much I guess knowledge or history can get lost and, you know, not even one generation, but almost like five years or 10 years or something. And so, um, I know that schools out, which is a youth group. Um, we have we've had speakers along, you know. Yeah, before you were born kind of. For lots of the young people, homosexuality was illegal, and men used to be put in prison and given lobotomies [00:25:30] and electric shock treatments. And it's really interesting. Now when I do education in schools for predominantly straight kids, they're like, Whoa, was it really illegal? They could, you know, can't even fathom a time like maybe don't like gay people or whatever and still say mean things but couldn't kind of fathom a time when it was actually illegal. And so you're like, Wow, that's actually that's actually fairly recent. You know, that's not 50 years ago or 100 years ago. Yeah, this is this fairly recent stuff that this younger generation has got different things [00:26:00] to deal with. Like this thing about gay become the meaning of gay changing among younger people and then gay, Just meaning Oh, that's really stink or awful or bad or whatever, and and we really shouldn't get complacent because I think there are still, it's still not necessarily easy for people to be themselves. And, um and there is still a bit of a bit of homophobe, you know, homophobia around and and the way people talk and stuff. Um, yeah, definitely. And I think that I've had a perhaps [00:26:30] an easier time because people don't always know that I'm gay, I suppose, Um, that awful phrase straight acting, which is not actually used that much anymore. It always used to be used in the personal ads. And is it still used on the personal or I don't know. Now, now that I think about it, I, I haven't seen that phrase for years. And yet when I was coming out, that was a very much, uh, see. But now what does that mean? Because you you don't know now and I like that. But it's like [00:27:00] when people look at me, they don't know that I'm Maori either always Maori or, um so that is interesting as well. It's about this whole thing of passing, you know, passing, you know, and people. And I kind of like that that people don't prejudge you. But I do know of other people who maybe don't get taken as seriously because, um, people might think, you know, you silly queen or whatever you know, so more double whammies. Cool. So you've got you've got lots of judging and [00:27:30] book reading up for the readers and writers. Are you going to enter anything in the, um, in the out games? Do you play any sports and hobbies? Um, well, I I run with front runners and I. I really love our little front runners group. That sort of started. It's a woman called Jules Easter. Is that her name? She We started this over 10 years ago. She started it. And what's really funny is that I think she just sent a note around saying, How does anyone want to run a set up a front runners group? And we did. And and and then she sort of left, you know, [00:28:00] and I think she's still around, but she's not involved in the group, but but the rest of us have sort of carried on and yeah, we run every Sunday morning, uh, from from Fryberg pool and then have brunch afterwards. And it's a really nice social group, and we run all different distances and and people come and go. You know, uh, the most we ever sort of get is 10 for a run. Um, we have more and more people running in summer in winter. I'm, um Yeah. So, I I did the marathon at the Sydney Games. Um, which probably was a bit of [00:28:30] a dumb thing because it was so hot. Long distance, and it was really hot. And, you know, it's like like today very, you know, in the well, I know it was actually in the thirties running it, Um, and you can't really train for that in New Zealand. So And we had to run with all your clothes on run on the spot in the sauna. But it was, um it was the last event. So, you know, you had to sort of behave yourself all week and then eat, you know, eat salad and pasta, and, uh I don't know, um I just end up being so busy [00:29:00] with all these things in Wellington. Um, I'll certainly be doing something about games. Um, that's if I'm not marshalling or helping with judging something. Um, but yeah, running is a big thing. I. I have done a bit of yoga, uh, which I sort of like to do that That might not be in the game. You never know. Bridge is in the bridge was at the games in Sydney, and that's, um, yoga is good because it counteracts, you know, when you sit at a desk doing a lot of book work and I, I do quite [00:29:30] a bit of skiing in winter. And my partner is an instructor, so and and he's got he's got involved in teaching disabled people to ski. So, um, and he lives at the ski field at, um for three months of the year. So you know that. And so then I go off and do master's skiing every second weekend, as part of, you know, and also to see him. So, um, that's my winter sport. And I you know, I love I love. I really, really come to love skiing. I'm not really that good, but I But I enjoy [00:30:00] it. So yeah, and they all those things all sort of compliment each other, but, um, yeah, I'm just starting to have a go at some more swimming and tennis. And wow. So you might You might be a major competitor in the game. Hey, Thanks, Heaps. Paul Diamond for having you on to us. And good luck with all your historic writing, journalism and and judging.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089140
TITLE: Claire Ryan profile
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VOICES: Claire Ryan
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 2000s; Claire Ryan; Wai Ho; Wellington; disability; gender identity; health; sexuality; transcript online
DATE: 11 February 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Claire Ryan talks about disability, gender and sexual identity.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So. Claire Ryan. Sexuality and disability. What's that all about? Uh, what is it all about? Well, no one knows what it's about because no one talks about it. Quite frankly, um, I do. My work that I do is with disabled people talking to them about sexuality and sexual expression, supporting people to, um I guess lead, um the lives that most of us lead. But it would seem that disabled people, uh, struggle a whole lot more because of prejudice and all that [00:00:30] sort of stuff. So, I, I tend to say I work in the sex industry. Which can mean that I work with a variety of people from educational, like family planning. Um, through to people who do actually work in the sex industry. Sex workers, madams, et cetera. Yeah. So you were saying that people often don't talk about sexuality and disability in in kind of the same sentence? Why is that? What are some of the the blocks or the prejudices or stigmas around those two topics converging? [00:01:00] Uh, probably degrees of deviancy. Uh, is it, uh, if you're attracted to a disabled person, then either they are deviant or you're deviant and your attraction to them. Um, and, um, which is is is, you know, untrue. I mean, there are certainly some disabled people who are deviant and will identify as that. But I think in our society, we spend a lot of time trying to look for, um, perfection [00:01:30] within our sexualities. And if you do, if you step outside of that and present in a different way, uh, then that seems to be the predominant thing that people look at rather than the person. So we tend to call disabled people disabled people. First off, um, or we call them clients or patients. Or so it's very, um, asexuals or or some people don't even make it onto that spectrum. Don't even be referred to as bachelors or sponsors that just [00:02:00] yeah, those those poor people sort of thing. Um, so there's lots of invisibility, and I think, uh, it's all about fear. So how did you get into doing this stuff? I, um Well, I started working for a HC back in 1985. Um, and it was through my own sort of coming out process. I think that I realised that, um, disabled people don't get to come out around their sexuality. [00:02:30] And I've never understood why this group of people that are often described as caring and loving and warm and all that sort of stuff, Yeah, don't don't get to express their sexuality. So, um, I went to a conference years ago. Um, and these two guys were, um, doing a presentation. Uh, they're working with a young guy who has Down syndrome, who was a bit of a sexual offender, [00:03:00] and they were getting him to dress up as a karate kid. And he had to come in and karate chop these two anatomically correct dolls. One who was abusing the other. And these guys, these therapists thought they were doing a really great job. And the idea of it was good, but they're kind of replacing one form of violence with another. And, of course, this boy didn't stop being the karate kid when he left the room. Um, So it got me thinking about the whole thing around, [00:03:30] how distorted or all the assumptions we make around people's understanding of sexuality. And I guess how um yeah, for that boy, um, you know, perhaps he just didn't know about boundaries and understanding about his body and all that sort of stuff. Um hm. It wasn't typical for the people I was working with to have any education about sexuality they weren't [00:04:00] referred to as people. They were called service users, I think in those days or clients. So I just kind of went from there and I started. Um, I actually were fantastic to work for because I could do a variety of jobs and managed to create a position where I was a relationships and sexuality advisor, which was thrown back in my face quite a few times from my partners when we'd be having disagreements. Because apparently that meant I knew everything about relationships. I'd like to stress that I [00:04:30] was an advisor, not an expert. Um, but in that role, I got to develop a relationships and sexuality policy, which was, uh, uh, quite pioneering for New Zealand. I thought that when I was given that task, I'd just go and cut and pay someone else's policy. But, um, it would appear that there weren't any in New Zealand, and it's interesting that you'd even have to have a policy on sexuality in a human service industry anyway. But, um Yeah, So we created this policy which took was [00:05:00] supposed to be a year to put together, and it took five years just because it was a hugely emotive thing to do it. It was challenging for families. It was challenging for disabled people. Um, but now it's been adopted by a place in New York. New York has almost copied it. Word for word, which I think is against the law. Um and, uh, other places now have seen the importance of having it because it creates some transparency. And it means that you have to do something about sexuality. And [00:05:30] really, it's just about acknowledging people's gender and who they are and how they stand in the world. It's not about sort of putting people in trucks and sending them off to the local brothel to have sex. It's not about that. It's about just being a bit human. So you're Wellington based. But the work that you do is national. Did you grow up in Wellington? No, I grew up in Christchurch, the Garden city. Um and how is that? How is that Christchurch? Interesting place. I have a friend who [00:06:00] calls it the City of hate. um, but it's a pretty place. It's It's, you know, lovely gardens. No, I enjoyed growing up in Christchurch. Grew up in a great family, and, um, had a very happy life. Yeah. Um, it was very ordinary. Very well, yeah, it was ordinary. Did a lot of went Pony Club and great pony Club girl. And did you come out while you were living at home, or was it later, or it was later on. I remember I went to an all girls [00:06:30] Catholic school, so it was, you know, pretty likely that something was gonna happen. That is an assumption in the stereotype. Yes, isn't it? Um, no, it was great. It was great being taught by women and very, um, a dominant, powerful woman. Some of them were had excelled and going to bad mood school. Yeah. Anyway, I won't go there. Um, so yeah, and I remember in my later years at school someone suggesting that I might be a lesbian [00:07:00] and, um oh, was it Was that a negative thing or just a just a general suggestion or Oh, it was kind of like it was like being given to me as an option. You know, Um and I remember thinking, Oh, I don't want to be that It's far too obvious like everyone's a lesbian, So I'm not going to be one. So I, um I think I spent a lot of time say I was asexuals because I was always very [00:07:30] interested in sexuality. But I didn't have a partner or a lover or anyone until I was 25. So which would have pleased the nuns hugely. Probably if I was still in that state. Um, I was asked to join the convent when I left. School is a career option. Are you glad you didn't? I'm really glad I didn't. Mainly because I you know, I have quite big hair, and I don't think I'd get the veil over it, but, um, yeah, yeah. No, it was, um [00:08:00] Yeah, it was not gonna be an option to join the convent. My father did suggest it when I came out glees him that I could, at least in the old days, I could have joined the convent, which was an interesting insight into what he knew about nuns. So are your family sweet as with with you when you came out or were you all right with you coming out? Did you have to kind of struggle with anything or you just never got around to it Or, um, I guess [00:08:30] I told people and I did the whole thing of draping myself and all sorts of symbols that have, you know, a woman's symbols hanging off my ear and, you know, I. I guess it's that thing of trying to show people how you are more to get sort of validated rather than I don't think anyone came up and sort of congratulated me on now identifying as a lesbian. And I I don't think I ever really was a lesbian. I mean, I didn't know what to come out as so that seems like a good, [00:09:00] good title. It's a nice word. It's kind of a luscious and and now and now do you identify or yeah, I identify as queer? Yeah, yeah, it's a It's a work in progress, I guess for a while I was gender queer. Even though my gender isn't, I'm not planning to change my birth gender. I identify as high fem um, which I think some women [00:09:30] think I'm trying to be superior to them. I probably am on some levels, but it kind of means for me. It's uber fem, and and it's about my. It's more about who I'm attracted to, which is masculine, Um, but not biological men. It's very fluid, I guess. Um, I'm not attracted to biological women as, um as partners as such. But if they add a layer of masculinity on top of that [00:10:00] or anyone who's bothered to sort of, um know who they are or look at their gender or whatever gets my attention. So I'm sorry. You know, people who haven't done that, I'll say hello, but I'll probably move on. So these kind of notions of fluid gender and and I guess, kind of different expressions of gender. Have you seen those change over, you know, over the last two years? Five years, 10 years, or or even for myself? I mean, [00:10:30] um, I've probably had three coming out, So the first one was being, you know, a lesbian, which was It was exciting. It was, You know, there were great days of mullet haircuts. Oh, what's the name? Judy. Small music. Um, and so moved on from that to, um uh I remember going out for dinner once with a couple of, um, Butch identifying people in [00:11:00] a woman who was and I was there. As you know, it was kind of like the just me. I hate that on dating websites where people say I'm not Butch or I'm just me, which I think is saying, I don't know, It's my judgement about people But I was doing a bit of a just me phase. And anyway, I, um we had a conversation about who at the table was what and everyone agreed at the table that I was, and I was furious. I was just like, Yeah, I am [00:11:30] bloody not because I understood to mean weak and pathetic and you know, all the kind of stereotypes of what some people might see as femininity. And then it was one of those things where someone names the truth and you get a little bit defensive about it. And so it took a lot of courage to step out of how I was, because I don't always find the queer community very welcoming of, um, and gender types. Um, [00:12:00] so for me to be wearing skirts and wearing lipstick and I wasn't a lipstick lesbian I was identifying as fem. Um, and I just got a whole lot of power and courage from that. I used to be terrified of going to pubs and being around biological men. Now, going in with this new skin on. I just didn't even notice that they were there. It was very interesting and very important. I remember reading stuff about Butch stuff, and my sister, who's my favourite sister, rang. She's [00:12:30] very straight and I was reading the stuff and crying and going, Oh, I've just been reading about Butch and and, you know, sort of getting all political about gender. And she was kind of going Oh, yeah, that is nice. I was having this big sort of political moment. Um, so that was it. And then, uh, probably in the last oh, five years [00:13:00] have looked have identified as high FM. And that was just AAA move in In terms of solidarity of where I stand. I don't know where I'll go from here. I. I wouldn't mind being a drag queen, perhaps a trans woman, but, um yeah, I like I like it every time. I think I've just settled something else comes along, so it's a work in progress. So has it changed? Yeah, I think it has. I think, um, [00:13:30] it's even The number of re identified people in New Zealand has increased hugely in the way people are doing. That, too, is really cool. It's not all about. Remember, in the seventies and eighties if any man went on holiday to Sydney, Um, everyone used to say they were going over for the operation. Yeah, because they would leave us Stan and come back as Stephanie sort of thing. Um, now people can be Stephanie and they don't have to go to Sydney. They can just sort of cruise around [00:14:00] and identify who they like. So that's cool. That's good. Cool. You talked a little bit about, um, I guess when you're coming up or or for the last however many years, that kind of pressure to conform or being judged, or whatever in in the LGBTI communities or queer communities and that kind of thing And you also talked a little bit about, um, notions of perfection. I think with with bodies and people in regards to everyone's sexualities or just I guess your ability to to be [00:14:30] a sexual person in the world. Do you think that the, you know, queer communities, um, would be better at accepting or more tolerant or more understanding of people with disabilities? What's been your experience of that? Um, yeah, I think so. I think it's the the the types of people who do the work and the human service or disability sector is it attracts people of difference because I think I've met a lot of people who are transgender [00:15:00] or queer or, um, I guess, from a variety of backgrounds because, um, it's a diverse. So it's it's more likely that the disability sector is welcoming of queer people. I don't know if it's the other way around. Um, I don't know what it would like be like. I mean, this is my stereotype. But to be a disabled, um, gay man going to a nightclub where you can't sort of take your shirt off and have [00:15:30] the sort of whatever they call it, those muscles showing and be all sort of cut and and gorgeous, um, you know, the there's those kinds of challenges, Um, but I think it's all you know. It's all based on fear isn't it? We can kind of get scared of ourselves. And and who we are? Um, I, I don't My experience of of the I can't even remember all the letters LGBTI [00:16:00] to the queer community for those letters. Um, my friend, um, Philip Piston, who's known in New Zealand. We, um, hang out a lot. And for two years in a row, we went to the launch of, um it wasn't the hero parade, but whatever it was after the hero Festival was it, I think. And it was the launch of that and both times along, and he couldn't [00:16:30] get in. And the first time What do you mean, he couldn't get in? There was no access. So clearly just there No thought that anyone in a wheelchair would be coming along. Um, And after the first event, um, Philip, and rightly so, you know, put in a complaint to I think it was or someone, um who, you know, was sympathetic and kind of did. Oh, that's no, no, that's terrible. And the next year, they had the and [00:17:00] and that the year that we complained or Philip complained it was in a ground level, um, venue but it was still really awkward to get in. So they they fixed it by, um, having the venue next year and and the place he had stairs in it. So so he couldn't really couldn't go. Um, and it's interesting because it doesn't just mean that Philip can't go. It means that I I can't go and I don't want, you know, if I'm gonna say, Look, I'll go and see what's going on, come back and report. It's kind of like, you know, go [00:17:30] to a restaurant and you have to go and look what's in the Cabinet and come back and tell people I wasn't going to be doing that. Um, And it was just a really good example of how difference within a different community is not considered. And yeah, I think notions of beauty and who's attractive. And certainly when disabled people identify as being queer, I get asked a lot to come and work with people who are disabled, who might be saying that they're gay or lesbian [00:18:00] or transgender or whatever. I've never been asked to come and work with someone who might be identifying as straight, so we're still in that thing of disbelief that, um, those people, and especially people with intellectual impairment, would really understand what it is to be queer Or, um what? I don't understand what it is to be queer. I just know that I see a certain type of person and, you know, parts of my body react differently or I feel good. Um, yeah, [00:18:30] I think it's all a lot of rubbish. A lot of the time you are just how you are. You're just me. But it's it's, um yes, it's far too many, you know, that I've supported two disabled people to start their transition around gender, and the battles that they have have been monumental. It's amazing that they still are around. You know that, Um, endocrinologists are are sort of taking people on and off, or one woman [00:19:00] trans woman on and off her hormones over a period of 20 plus years. Um, and not and because she would see a different endocrinologist each time, um, she would be treated differently. There was no consistency, and and people didn't believe because she didn't dress as a female. She wasn't believed to be a trans woman because it must be her intellectual impairment that's making her do all that stuff. It was just rubbish. Hm. II. I don't [00:19:30] know if that those experiences could be similar for people without intellectual impairment. I think it's probably the medical professional on some levels, but it seemed a whole lot harder. So a lot of the work that you've done, um, around sexuality and disability, what have the responses been like? Um, can people get their heads around it? Or is it one of these things that you you do a workshop and they're like, Oh, yeah, cool or everyone. It's kind of like that, Um, everyone can see the point [00:20:00] of it. It's just like what to do about it. You know, it becomes a problem. People talk about the issues around disability and sexuality. Disabled people don't have sexuality, they have issues with it. You know where the rest of us get up and get on with our day sort of thing. Um, and I think it is really challenging. It's a it's a mindset thing about Yeah, there's lots of discussion around vulnerability and talking with some professionals about this online recently, and, um, the assumption [00:20:30] is that that disabled people are vulnerable, and there are some people who are. But the assumption was that being vulnerable was a negative thing. And in fact, when you're vulnerable, there's a whole lot of possibilities for really nice nurturing and closeness. That could happen because if you're not vulnerable, then you can let that part of your life can be overlooked. Um, but a lot of what goes on in the disability sector I've noticed over my 25 years of being a part of it, [00:21:00] is, um, it is about fear. It's it's things like people now or or some of the government agencies. These standards are things like, um, when disabled people are supported to have showers that support workers need to wear gum, boots and aprons and gloves. So, you know, you've almost got this kind of freezing worker coming towards you to wash your body. Um, and if a guy I know who's disabled talked about how the the great [00:21:30] thing about him going to see a sex worker is that she didn't wear a glove, wear any gloves when she touched him, and he found that incredibly exciting because everyone's always touched him. When they've touched his body, they put gloves on so they're gonna They're gonna catch cerebral palsy. Um, so it's getting back to some of those basics. It's that getting rid of the fear and just always swapping places and thinking, You know, if it was me on the changing table in the bathroom having someone take my clothes off, how would [00:22:00] I want that to happen? And how enhancing is that of my gender and who I am? Or, um, if you are really attracted to a certain gender that that that might be really embarrassing for you to have someone support you and using the toilet or whatever it's thinking about those sorts of things, it's It's more in my workshop. I try to get people to think about what they think about stuff rather than tell them what they should be doing. And it's. It usually means people have to be, quite, [00:22:30] um, self analysing of their own behaviour and their own sexuality. Which, of course, raises a whole lot of issues for people sometimes. So what could queer communities or LGBTI communities? What? What could we think about? Oh, well, yeah, that that's, um, Philip. Wheelchair access for a start. Yeah, that would be nice. Um, Philip talks. I mean, you go and visit Philip Patton's website. You'll, um would [00:23:00] you like some of them to look at WWW dot diversity? NZ dot co dot NZ? Um, and on there, Philip has got some links to some of his other, um, websites, one of which is why species and, um, Philip has moved on from the social model of disability and thinking, Um, and the social model is all about that. Disability is a social construct, so people have impairments. But when they get [00:23:30] to a set of stairs at the launch of the Euro festival, they become disabled because they can't get up the stairs. Um, and it's because of the lack of thinking that, um, I guess in everything that's organised now, everything that we do, you should expect that people of all sorts of diversity are gonna come along. And it's it's about if you if you can't cater for that person's needs, that it's not a panic, and it's not their fault, and it's not something that they have to fix. It's quite [00:24:00] gracious just to say, Yeah, we really muck it up next year. Can you help us get it right and talking to the people that, um, actually have those experiences of the world. So Philip will talk about how we all have common experiences of the world. But there are some people that have unique experiences of it. So maybe within the LGBTI ZK community, um, that we, uh, would, uh, look for [00:24:30] and invite uniqueness and be prepared for that to come in many different shapes and forms and just be prepared to learn from We're never gonna get it right, You know, for me, sometimes there's a bigger woman going along and sitting in a chair that has arms on the side of it, and I stand up in that chair is still attached to me. That's my my unique experience of the world. It's not always about the big stuff. It's just about creating environments. [00:25:00] And and sometimes it's just about that. It's just about being nice to people. I find it really difficult when I go to, you know, we're all we all go to an event because our commonality is about who we happen to sleep with, and sometimes people have been just so unfriendly and and it's kind of like we're all competing for the same same personal thing or what? I don't know. Sometimes we are. Sometimes we are. And I guess it's hard when I win all the time. That's why people react [00:25:30] to me. No, but, you know, it's just that we're all a little bit suspicious of each other. And I guess I I can remember when the law reform was coming through. But I, I think that, um there was something really good about, um, being queer being against the law. I kind of wish it was still that way. Um, because there is some power in being, um the underdog. There was some kind of unifying factor. Um, I remember [00:26:00] talking to someone on the line once on a It was a pickup line. It didn't go too well. It was just, um uh she was saying to me something about being marginalised, and I said I actually quite like being marginalised because it gave me a sense of purpose and solidarity, and I didn't see it as a negative thing. I saw it then I quite like the fact that someone wanted to marginalise me. They saw that I was different to them, and that was quite important [00:26:30] to me. I don't want to be the same, and I think that's what I see happening in the community is. You know, I think it's great that people want to get married. But I wasn't actually go out and protest about the fact that I couldn't because I kind of like the fact that I couldn't because it it, it made again, made me have to think about what I really want. You know, I don't always have to have the same rights as everyone else for me, But I think I know it's important for other people. So and I think [00:27:00] that's what's good about the disability sector is it's still talk about a marginalised group that, you know, we haven't really come a long way in terms of our thinking around, um, disability or uniqueness. Um, so it's a It's a very cool community to be a part of because there are some amazing amazing people, amazing resilience and insight into the world that just do their stuff, and they don't have to have a parade [00:27:30] or festival about it. Um, and I guess the disability arts is the emerging way that people who are activists are getting their message across, which is a really cool way of doing it. Very peaceful. Some of the performances are quite angry, but it it seems like a very intelligent way of getting a message across. Hm. Cool. Fantastic. Um, thanks Heaps for [00:28:00] your time and for yarn with us.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089141
TITLE: Alison Laurie profile
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VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 1960s; Alison Laurie; Julie Glamuzina; Parker and Hulme: a lesbian view (book); Wai Ho; activism; education; gay liberation movement; homosexual law reform; human rights; lesbian; profile; relationships; social; teaching; transcript online
DATE: 18 February 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison talks about growing up and being involved in queer activism from the 1960s.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Alison Laurie is the programme director of the Gender and Women's Studies at Victoria University. Um, Alison is a longtime activist. Long stand activist. Tell us a little bit about that. Well, where should I begin? Um, yes. Well, I, um I come from Wellington, Um, my background as, uh is [00:00:30] Maori, and, um, my, uh my father's people, um, come from the south island, And, uh, they were Maori, and and my mother's people was Scottish and, uh, from the Channel Islands. And, um yeah, and they were all rather, uh, interesting people with, uh uh, a lot of initiative [00:01:00] and that sort of thing. So I suppose when I came along And, of course, I'm part of the baby boom generation with the generation who, um, grew up in the aftermath of World War Two. And the question then was that, you know, we were told that the Second World War had been fought for us. Um, we got everything really, uh, free milk and schools, apples, free education, free medical. And so we kind [00:01:30] of grew up with a sense of entitlement. So I think, uh, throughout the world, really, when my generation came of age and understood that we're going to be discriminated against because, uh, we were queer or because we were women or, uh because of our ethnic background or any of those kinds of reasons. This is where you get the big social movements of the 19 sixties that people began meeting together and saying, Oh, this is not acceptable and [00:02:00] working out ways that, uh, we could do something about it. Now let's not say that people didn't do things before. There's a long trail that goes right back, Um, especially in terms of queer activism, a long trail that goes back at least to the mid 19th century with, uh, people who fought very hard to overcome discrimination, to try to get the laws changed to try to make a difference. Um, the interesting thing is, is that as [00:02:30] we start coming of age in the 19 sixties, we we didn't know about any of that because that was all a hidden history for us. We weren't being taught about that. It took a long time before we could begin to uncover the fact that there had been people before us and those people had actually had quite developed politics and that we had a great job to learn from them. So that was that was important, too. And I suppose it's also been important to, um, my generation that we left a very good [00:03:00] trail so that that kind of invisibility would not happen. So as easily, again doesn't mean that that can't happen. But, you know, and and part of doing things like this recording is, uh is all part of that, too, that we leave as many traces as we can in as many ways as we can so that something is sure to survive. And people will know. Uh, people of the future will know, uh, who was here and what we thought about it and what we tried to change and where we succeeded and where we didn't. And [00:03:30] they can learn from that as well. So, um, in the sixties, uh, you know, the it was very difficult. Um, for men, they could, you know, any, uh, male homosexual behaviour. Uh, men could go to prison for seven years, and they did, and we'd be people who did. And the police entrapped them. Uh, so that, uh and they would fall into those traps and they'd be taken off to prison. Um, [00:04:00] for lesbians, there weren't. Actually, there wasn't actually a law about, uh, sex between women, Uh, except the 1961 crimes Act that add in lesbianism for the first time by criminalising women over 21 with girls under 16, which you could agree with. But once you put a definition into law, you can play around with those ages. So So that was a bit of a concern. Especially since there were people who thought that Oh, why should women get away with this? [00:04:30] So, what age were you, then? Oh, well, uh, yeah, coming into, you know, my my twenties. Yeah. So you were really aware of what was happening to to gay men as well as the act, and that included lesbians. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We were absolutely aware of that. Yeah. Um, and the thing, Uh, then, um, although men organised here with the Dorian Society, but they the women, they wouldn't have lesbians as members, so we we couldn't [00:05:00] belong to that. And also, um, you didn't have, uh you had six o'clock closing people. You know, students frequently say to me, Oh, tell us about the lesbian bars, you know, in the 19 fifties in New Zealand. And I mean, I have been reading a lot of, uh, history from America. Um, you know, in New Zealand, after 1919, 18, you had six o'clock closing, and you and pubs were shut on Sundays and the alcohol leg, you know, legislation around alcohol was very strict. And [00:05:30] when you couldn't serve food in pubs, for example, um, you couldn't have any entertainment. This was all thought to encourage people to drink, and women were not served in a public bar. Women could be served in ladies and escorts bars called cats bars with the alcohol cost twice as much as in the public bar. Um, and the idea of the ladies and escorts was to help prevent prostitution because it really only prostitutes would want to go to pubs. You see, So, um, really, there weren't many places that lesbians could meet publicly, [00:06:00] Uh, except for coffee bars. And so there were There were a number of coffee bars, and, uh, we were lucky in the post war period that a lot of, um, people had fled Europe, especially Jewish people who'd come to New Zealand and when they arrived from the thirties onwards and when they arrived, they were fairly horrified to see that there was so little here. And so they started delicates and [00:06:30] coffee bars and things like that. So gradually, you know, we got a few amenities like that. And these coffee bars in particular the in Auckland and the Tate here, uh, became important meeting places for, uh for us. And we called ourselves camp. We didn't really call ourselves queer. That was regarded as a term of derision. And lesbians didn't use the term lesbian. It was also a word you wouldn't use. When did lesbian come into you? Not till [00:07:00] the 19 seventies. For lesbian feminist politics, it's a whole different question. So we called ourselves camp, and the etymology of that, uh, is probably we we normally we thought it was spelled with a K. Um, and it was used in Australia as well. And the etymology of that was said to be, uh, that it stood for known as male prostitute. And it was an abbreviation used by the New South Wales police on files of men who are suspected of being homosexuals. [00:07:30] So women used that we used that as well. Yeah. Yeah. So that was the term we used. Um, so you know, So we had we largely would meet at private parties. Um, and we became aware of some of the overseas organisations. We became aware of the daughters of in their magazine, the ladder, and we then became aware of the minorities research group, Uh, in London, Uh, producing, uh, Rena three. [00:08:00] It was very difficult and almost impossible to subscribe to these things because you couldn't get foreign currency very easily, um, to send off and subscribe to them. But it was easier with the British one. So, um, I spent time in Australia. Um, I ran away to Australia, actually, when I was 17. Um, what did your parents think about that? Well, they'd found this woman in my wardrobe, so Oh, goodness. So that it kind of literally out of the closet, [00:08:30] literally. So, um, So then what was their reaction? Was it like you? You're crazy, or you go to jail or what have we done or No, no, no. Um, my parents both worked and, um uh, my friend. She lived with an uncle and aunt here and I lived at home, and, um, I just started a university. That was the end of my first attempt to come to university. Uh, yeah. And so, [00:09:00] uh, we would because my parents both worked. We would, um, she would we would drive there in her car, she had a car. And, um, you know, that's where we could be together. And, uh, but the neighbours, uh, had suggested to my parents that I had a man that I was, um, because I could see this car outside. So my parents came home to catch this man, but instead they found this woman hiding in the wardrobe. So we were we just Yeah. So we just went off [00:09:30] together, and, uh, I, you know, I left university and we lived together, and then and we met a couple more people and that sort of thing, and we went and went to Australia together. Oh, yeah? Yeah, Well, uh, we went to Australia and, uh, the friends that we'd gone flatting with we flat here in Wellington for about three or four months. Um, they really had to get to Australia because, uh, the mother of one of them was, uh trying to get her daughter committed because she was under 21. That's [00:10:00] what they could do. You see, Because you're crazy, Because you're Of course, it's a symptom of, uh, madness. So your parents could have you committed And, uh, you know, homosexuality wasn't removed from the psychiatric illnesses. Uh, diagnostics until 1973. Simply true. Um, so that was a very real threat then. Anyway, I I had, uh, seen so I. I spent, uh, we together, I suppose a couple of years in Australia and, uh, [00:10:30] saw the communities there and all of that sort of thing. It was pretty wild, Pretty rough, Uh, communities in those cities, a lot of New Zealanders and of New Zealanders and rough In what way? Kind of parties or just hard or parties. Um and, um uh, A lot of Well, for example, the the pub where lesbians met and and many gay men was the Rex Hotel in Kings Cross [00:11:00] in Sydney. And the police raided it all the time. And the police would even though what also there you couldn't. There was no law against lesbians, but the police, the vice squad thought there should be so they would, uh, try to find reasons to arrest lesbians. They'd say they were drunk. Um, you know, there were all kinds of stories, uh, about how lesbians got arrested, you know, throw a push a hotel glass into their hands [00:11:30] and say you've been found for a stolen hotel glass, you know, sort of stuff, Uh, in a way, like a big game between a set of players and a whole lot of other people. It's very much, very much outsiders. And also, of course, in those hotels which were the only places where these vin and came in could were welcome. Because, remember, many hotel owners wouldn't have you there. You'd come in and they'd you know, you'd be thrown out. Um, so those with the hotels were, you know, quite big criminal elements [00:12:00] also met, uh, you know, there was close association with prostitution. Um, some lesbians in Australia, um, did live on the earnings of prostitutes because people had problems getting employment. Um, so they were pretty difficult. Uh uh. You know, public communities now, there were also a very discrete networks, middle of middle class people. But the thing is, if you were young, you really didn't have a lot of access to those middle class networks because [00:12:30] they would immediately think, you know, you know, gosh, you know, an underage person could be trouble. Um, that sort of thing. So there wasn't anything like the kinds of communities that you know you might think about today, that you've got public communities who are largely young, largely working class and who do have quite a few problems and who associate, You know, there's a close association with with criminal networks as well, so there's constant fear of police [00:13:00] harassment. The police, also in New South Wales, had a had some rules which made it quite easy to arrest. And and that was true, actually in South Australia and Victoria as well. Uh, the laws which were called the consorting laws. And they've been set up at the end of the beginning of the 20th century to break up the gangs in Australia. And that was the the charge was habitual consorting with known criminals. Now habitual. That meant that you'd have to be booked, [00:13:30] um, about from memory. Something like about eight times as consorting with a known criminal now a known criminal is not one that's been charged, just known, just known to the police or suspected of being a criminal. So if you were hanging out with gay men, they're known criminals because they're suspected of homosexuality, which is a criminal offence. Uh, and of these bookings, only four needed to be, uh they needed to tell you the others could be silent bookings. So then you might get this charge put against [00:14:00] you a year later, and you've got to prove that you were not doing something on the 21st of July 2 years ago, but so that was was pretty successful. And you could get a two year jail sentence for that. So these were Australian laws. New Zealand laws, similar or quite different. They didn't have consorting laws, but they certainly had, um they certainly had that. You know, there was a squad, and they certainly had, uh, similar attitudes to lesbians. And certainly some of those police officers did absolutely [00:14:30] think that it was wrong that lesbians should be getting away with it. So what brought you back from the The rough bars of Sydney came back broadcasting? Um, did you try to go back to university or you know, I did go. I did go back and do a couple of units part time, but by that point, I was, you know, working full time. So, um yes. So I did that. And, um and then, you know, and that was the time. Really? Where? You know, we've got these communities here. [00:15:00] Uh, those kinds of things are are happening. Uh, and we know about, uh, these associations that are beginning or have begun in the United States and in Britain, and that holds out a whole other kind of hope that you that you might have a political organisation that's working for social change. And I was already involved with things like CND the campaign for nuclear disarmament. I'd been involved with that since I was at school. Um, so you've always kind of felt social change, [00:15:30] social change, and also that social change was possible And that you could change you and that You know why? Why shouldn't you change things? You know why? Why should you just accept things if that you believe are wrong? You know why? Who are these people that have the right to tell you how to live your life? do you feel that that drive of we can change things is possible? Is that something that's still sifting around in the ether kind of today in in these times or [00:16:00] Oh, I think that's a hard question. Um, I don't know. Um, I think the problem is when you get an economic recession, is that you have, um, you you can start to get a kind of sense of hopelessness, and you also start to get people who go along with the status quo because they don't want to rock the boat. And they think that if they if they put their head down that you know, they're not gonna get there, that they're not gonna, you [00:16:30] know, be the one that gets hit on. But of course, that's never the case. You know, it's what I call the Nemo syndrome. You know, that's what happened to people in, uh, Nazi Germany, you know? But I said, you know, first they came for the, uh, you know, Jews and I wasn't a Jew, so I didn't say anything. Then they came for the Social Democrats, and I wasn't, you know, so forth. And eventually they came for me and By that time, there was nobody left to speak up. And I think we forget that. [00:17:00] You know that, um that if you don't try to prevent something, it will get worse. You know, there's no I. I think there's no point hoping that that's all there's gonna be that we'll just allow this little thing to happen. We'll just allow a little thing to happen, like get rid of AC C. And that will be all because it doesn't work like that. If they're successful, then more things will happen. You can. That's the one thing you can be certain of. And, you know, history proves that to us time and time and time again. And that's [00:17:30] not gonna change. You know, once once someone has some successes, then they continue. I mean, and we all would, you know, we all would. We all do. In whatever thing we believe in, you know? Um, yes. Anyway, um, I, uh uh I went to Britain. Uh, I joined, uh, MRG, um I, uh MRG the Minorities research group, which was the first lesbian, um, [00:18:00] association. It was kind of largely social, but that in itself was political. To have something like that. We had discussion groups and there was actually a whole network of people right throughout England is It was started by a woman called Langley who was pretty shocked when she started it, because immediately she got phone calls from all over Britain of women saying, I'm in love with the woman next door. I don't know what to do. If my husband finds out, I think I'm going to kill myself, you know? So suddenly it was very apparent that there is this [00:18:30] huge need of people, uh, who were very isolated and that there was a need to create some kind of, you know, social services, those sorts of things. So anyway, so I was there, and then, um, I went travelling, as you do, and, uh, I wound up in Denmark, and I lived there for a long time and became a Danish citizen. And I was involved with the, uh, Lesbian gay Association there, which [00:19:00] was called the, uh, in 1948. But because it had been founded in 1948. Um, and that was, um, that was very good to get that experience of living in in a society which had a very strong commitment to social justice, which was very progressive, where you worked with and learned from people. Uh, you know, in, you know, in one of those typical, uh, European quite conservative lesbian gay [00:19:30] associations which had been founded after the war years, who actually they they they were the inheritors of all those pre-war organisations about which we hadn't known anything like the Hirschfield organisation founded in 18 95 in Berlin. Like the extensive network of, um organisations that existed until wiped out by the Nazis in 1933 in Germany and then throughout occupied Europe. Uh, about which, [00:20:00] uh, I'd know nothing until, you know, going to live and work in those countries. And even they were only beginning to uncover information about what had gone before because so much of what had gone before it had been so systematically destroyed by by the Nazis. So anyway, that was a very good working with that organisation. And then, um you know, then gay liberation came. I was there when, uh, gay liberation began. And, uh, that really revolutionised, [00:20:30] uh, the political approach as we took because the approach of gay liberation wasn't that there's a set minority that should be seeking, uh, civil rights or human rights. Uh, the view of gay liberation, I mean, is still totally revolutionary today, which is, you know, the aim was to bring up the lesbian and gay man in everybody's head. And the problem is heterosexuality. So let's examine that and see just what's wrong with that and why it's compulsory. And actually, if it was so [00:21:00] natural, why it wouldn't need to be made, uh, compulsory, because everybody would just be, you know, flocking to it. Um, So those messages of ga libration were very powerful and very important. And and, you know, that was how our politics then developed. Uh, and then, um very soon, um, lesbian feminism developed. And, uh, because, uh, with the newly emergent, [00:21:30] uh, ideas of Gala and the big proliferation of a lot of people joining those organisations, you got a lot of very conservative gay men who had never really worked with women. And in fact, they were more conservative, really than straight men might have been. But at least straight men had, you know, if they lived with a woman, then you know they'd be trying to get along with her, and she might be, you know, telling them things. But But some of those gay men really had had very [00:22:00] little to do with women, and they didn't want to and that their idea about working in a mixed organisation, these new ones who were coming in was well, yes, well, of course, the women should be doing the typing and making the coffee. And of course, they would be making the important speeches and so lesbian issue taken with that, indeed. So lesbians started to feel quite agitated. And this is a worldwide thing, too. You get reports from New New York and right throughout the United States, Canada and Australia and New Zealand. Same things are happening. Um, and in the women's movement in the feminist movement, there's a similar [00:22:30] thing happening because as more conservative women begin to join these women's organisations, you know, because the the vanguard are are are pretty out there so they don't care, and a lot of them are lesbians. But then you know you want to attract more women, and then they're there. And then those women are saying, Oh, people might think we're all lesbians. Oh, don't take that sign along to the demonstration that says lesbians support abortion rights. Don't put lesbian on the sign. Everybody will think we're lesbians. [00:23:00] Um, so lesbians kind of found themselves in a position of, you know, dealing with the homophobia, the Lesa of straight feminists and some some parts of the women's movement and dealing with sexism among some parts of the gay movement. So then you get the rise of separate lesbian organisations. Um, so I tried about this time that I come back here. I mean, in between, I go to the States and, you know, go around a lot of those organisations there, [00:23:30] and that was very exciting and everything was happening. And, you know, it was a great time. The seventies was a terrific time because everything seemed possible. It's a real watershed between the old and the new. This is the This is where the the baby boom generation really come together to make fantastic, very rapid social changes and things are never the same again. Um, and that's the point of you know, of people learning from other progressive organisations, [00:24:00] uh, particularly uh, the black civil rights movement so that out of concepts like black pride. You get things like gay pride, lesbian pride, um, and visibility And these kinds of ways of political action which no longer are reliant upon just accommodating and and being grateful for, whatever crumbs might fall off the table of the powerful but actually starting to demand a seat at the table and and and [00:24:30] saying, Why shouldn't I be? Why why shouldn't I be here at this table making these decisions with you? I'm not. Why should I be calling around on the floor? Grateful for whatever little crumb you might be choosing to give me. So it was a very important time. And I think also, it's a time that you you have other periods in history which are revolutionary in that sense too. You know, uh, people who? People who were alive during the French Revolution, Uh, in the late 18th century, uh, say [00:25:00] similar kinds of similar kinds of things. Um, Wordsworth, for example, in his poem that about the French Revolution, you know, bliss Was it in that time to be alive? But to be young was very heaven. Um, because these are moments in history when things are moving very fast. and you feel that you're on the quest of a wave, you're all moving in the same direction and change can happen, and you can see it happening daily. You can see that, you know, you're making making changes. [00:25:30] So I came back here, like when it when it stopped. Well, there was a lot of consolidation to do, you know, and and needing to evaluate a lot of the things that had happened. So I mean, I came back in 73. We, um we started, uh, the Sisters of Homophobic Equality. That was the first lesbian organisation here these days. It seems like a pretty silly title. But you couldn't use lesbian. You couldn't get it in the newspaper. They wouldn't print it. Um, a lot of women absolutely didn't want to [00:26:00] call themselves that homophile we thought was an advance on homosexual, because at least it kind of meant Well, love are of the same rather than just having sex all the time. Um, and it had a decent acronym. Which was she, um, we started the magazine circle, uh, which was New Zealand's first, uh, lesbian magazine. And that went that ran from 1973 to 1986. So it's still the longest running Sian magazine. And we started, um, uh, club 41 [00:26:30] here in Wellington, which was, uh, in Vivian Street. That was the first lesbian club here in Wellington. Um, well, it was a club. It was a club for women. So it was like a bar, or like a bar. Yeah, selling liquor illegally. Lovely. Because you do it, Did it through a ticket system is how people did it. Then, you know, So people buy the tickets, and then they exchange the tickets for the alcohol. So the [00:27:00] yeah, so eventually, eventually, you know, I mean, the police would be raiding it and that sort of thing. So eventually, um, it closed in 1977. Because that happened, you know, once too often. Um, but there's a really interesting history around, um, having, you know, a venue that sort of meeting place. Interestingly with, um, with something like the club 41 the policy was always that it was a club for women. And, uh, you know, far from, uh, lesbian feminists being [00:27:30] highly separatist at that time, uh, the idea was that you wanted to welcome women who identified as heterosexual into everything because they would immediately become lesbians. And the idea was that anyone can be a lesbian and should be. And quote by Martha Shelley, which people would write up everywhere. You know, um, in a society where men oppress women to be lesbian as a sign of mental health, you know, and in fact, and in Christchurch because, uh, she [00:28:00] began, uh, first in Christchurch. And then we, you know, started it here. But in Christchurch, she the woman from she actually started, uh, the first women's refuge in the country. So women's refuge and to give them credit. They don't deny this. That not only was the first refuge started by in the country started by lesbians, it was started by a lesbian organisation and Joe Crowley, who's now a lesbian activist in Auckland. She was the first sort of person looking after that refuge. So she lived there. She was only 18 [00:28:30] at the time, and and, um, they had posters, uh, all around the walls with, you know, things like, you know, come out and, you know, and so these women would be leaving their violent marriages and coming to this house and everyone just thought, Oh, as soon as they get here, they'll come out as lesbians. And of course, they leave their husbands. So they came out as lesbians and they did. That's the interesting thing that a lot of women in those early years, that's exactly what did happen. So not so much later, I must say. But yeah, that was certainly certainly a thing. [00:29:00] And one of the things that was very clear in those years was that the single thing that meant that more New Zealand women could come out was the D PB because that meant that women had a means of support prior to the D PB, which was introduced in 1972 women really could not easily leave their marriages at. The women were very trapped and you'd had a society of you know, which was, which was not particularly equal society at all, [00:29:30] where economic opportunities for women to be economically independent were not great. So you had very high rates of women marrying young marriage, Um, from especially in the post war period. So a lot of women had, you know, ended up in marriages, who then realised that that really wasn't what they wanted to do. Yeah, So you had a lot of women coming out in the seventies and you had a lot of ideas and around that, that's what they should do. So it really started to be quite [00:30:00] a big movement. And this is still more than a decade before homosexual law reform. Oh, yes, yes. Well, homosexual law reform is able to happen because of these organisations. So it was it kind of like a critical mass. It's a critical mass. Um, now, remember the gay organisations You know, the gay men So So you've still got some lesbians working in mixed, uh, gay organisations and gay liberation? Um, you've got some lesbians working in separate, uh uh lesbian organisations. You've still got organisations [00:30:30] like the Dorian Society that gay men uh, now and then they decided they would admit women and then after they've done that for a month or two Then they say that we can't have women, they get drunk and fight. Um so you've got some gay separatists, you know? So you So you've got quite a disparate lot of different organisations now. Plus what? You've still got the old camp communities now, interestingly, uh, the the [00:31:00] camp communities in this country were, you know, from certainly from the 19 fifties and probably earlier, but not much as documented prior to the 19 fifties. Uh, they're predominantly Maori and predominantly working class. And what you get with Maori is a massive urbanisation taking place from 1945. So the three quarters of the Maori population live in rural areas in 1945 by 1973 quarters now live in urban areas. [00:31:30] And what we do know is a lot of those people young people were, you know, lesbians or gay And, uh, you know, which can have been a strong motivation for why you might want to leave the country area. Um, I think an interesting and very influential person here in Wellington was Carmen, uh, who was a trip, Uh, and and, uh, she came to, um, originally to Auckland to Wellington. And Carmen started, uh, [00:32:00] Carmen's coffee bar, which became a very important meeting meeting place and then Carmen's balcony later, which became very important, uh, in Victoria Street. And, um so Carmen is a very flamboyant figure. Um, at the time, Carly would have identified herself as a drag queen. Um, as with many of the, uh, people who worked there important, flamboyant figures in the history [00:32:30] of Wellington people like Tiffany and people who really were right on the edge in terms of actually creating visibility, creating meeting spaces and showing fantastic courage, uh, right through. And that's one of the things you know, that you'd have to think about all those early communities were required courage to be out there. You know, it wasn't the most comfortable thing in the world to be doing because you still have a great deal of hostility. Um, you know, throughout the the [00:33:00] society. Yeah. So gay liberation conferences start to be held. Uh, the first lesbian conference is held in 1974. Uh, it's held here at Victoria University. Um, and then, uh, the national gay rights coalition forms. And that's an umbrella organisation for all of these organisations. I like about 35 organisations throughout the country, so that makes it possible to have a a unified political approach. Um, [00:33:30] so that, um with various law reform attempts that start surfacing, the NGRC can take a considered view of them. And, uh, by this stage. The view is that there has to be an equal age of consent, so we're not going to go into any half measures. The, uh it's clear from the British legislation. If you accept an age of consent of 21 you're gonna be stuck with that for years. [00:34:00] And also, it's highly insulting. Why would you want a different age of consent? This is discriminatory. You're not going to accept it. Um, and obviously some of the more conservative and older gay men believed that there should be, uh, law reform at any cost. And you could also appreciate their position. Some of them have been to prison, so they felt that that that that any reform was better than no reform. So there are diff differing opinions about this that start emerging. [00:34:30] Um, because of, um, a very difficult campaign around a proposed around some proposed proposed reforms around the freer bills and because of amendments that were proposed that would, uh, have, uh, have decriminalised male homosexual acts, but would would have made the promotion of homosexuality illegal. Um, the coalition ran out of steam. So So it collapsed. Really? So by the time you get to the early eighties and, uh, the [00:35:00] introduction of the homosexual law reform bill in 1985. If you don't have any of those organisations what you have, uh, the gay task Force in Auckland and in Wellington and they've been put together fairly recently. They were put together in 1984. There was a There was a Equality Bill coalition in Auckland, which wanted a pretty dicey bill that probably would have ended up including women and which lesbians opposed and which, fortunately, the women MP S could see [00:35:30] that that wasn't a terribly good idea. Um, Anyway, by the time you get to 1985 Fran agreed to to put a bill through, but, um, it was a very difficult campaign because there was immediate mobilisation from the right wing against that, and they were well funded and supported from fundamentalist organisations in the United States. So it was a pretty hard campaign. Um, so [00:36:00] I won't talk. Talk about that in any detail. Um, so it's really important. I'm kind of getting a grasp of. There's just so much history that's so important to kind of Yeah, I guess now and and Well, you need to get it all in context. So after the after homosexual law, reform passed in 1986 and we've had that very hard for two years. It was very, very difficult. Um, and we lost, of course, the human rights, Um, part of the bill, which is the addition of sexual orientation. And we've been fighting for that for a long time. You [00:36:30] know, since the inception of the Human Rights Act in 1977 national Gay Rights Coalition had been trying to get sexual orientation into the human rights bill Human Rights Act. Um, tried very, very formally with the homosexual law reform bill, part two. But that was defeated. Uh, so that reemerged. Um, in 91 when cater Reagan, by that point, you got a national government, Catherine, um, who [00:37:00] had, uh, who had taken over Marilyn wearing the seat? Uh, she agreed to, um, take this private members bill. So that was finally achieved with the addition of several new grounds into the act, Uh, in the 1993 Human Rights Act and we managed to get, uh, which was a big battle. We managed to get sexual orientation defined as heterosexual, homosexual, lesbian or bisexual [00:37:30] because otherwise we thought it was unclear. Uh, and it's difficult to know how, how well people would identify particular. Yeah, so big. Big struggles, big changes, big gains. I think as well in the last kind of three decades. Well, I think you have to. I think you have to get the legal changes done first you see, and it needs to be understood that without the without the passage of the Human Rights Act, then that sets the stage. Although the government gives itself [00:38:00] an extension immediately, it it applies to, uh, private business so that so the protections are not across the board. The protections are in the provision of goods and services and the provision of employment and of housing. So goods and services then starts becoming an area. What does this mean? So obviously it probably does mean marriage. Uh, so that sets the stage for what then has to happen. Our government gives itself an extension initially until the year [00:38:30] 2000, and then it extends that further. So whatever government you had in had to do something like the civil union act because you have to. It's in accordance with that original legislation from 93. So everything stems from that. And also then the statutory references, uh, act which, um, goes right through all government legislation to ensure that there is no difference made between same sex couples, uh, or people and, uh uh, [00:39:00] and different sex couples. So So it follows very logically. And that is followed into immigration policy now, into the registration of births. Um, so very far reaching and without, um, you know, I mean, we used to have big discussions, uh, right through the seventies and eighties. As to whether, you know, if you just work on law reform, surely you should work on, you know, changing people's attitudes. But the other side of that is that for many people, what changes their attitudes [00:39:30] is the law. If they suddenly find out, they're gonna be breaking the law. If they say they're not gonna hire a lesbian, um, that helps with the attitude. It pretty quickly. It helps very quickly. And that was the evidence from overseas. And that was the evidence that I had, you know, known about from living in Denmark and living in Norway, and, uh you know, knowing that, you know, as soon as you put laws of that kind in, then within probably two or three years of those laws being there, the majority of people, uh, just [00:40:00] accept them. So it really does. This helps promote the attitude change now and also maybe the campaign for changing the law, uh, helps you do public education anyway, so that you know, it's it it it all helps to do that. So 2010, what are what are your hopes for the for the future? Kind of. Well, I think politically visual vigilance, because I think that, you know, if you, [00:40:30] um I think there's really interesting lessons to be learned, uh, from the past. And I was just recently at a, uh, at an event about the Holocaust run by the, um, Holocaust Centre here, and, uh, a very interesting speech made by a Jewish speaker who, um, whose family came from Austria and, uh, who spoke about what things were like in Germany. You [00:41:00] know, Germany was the centre of culture. It was tremendously progressive. It was the place where Jewish people had been able to make their homes and live free from discrimination for a long time. It was a centre of art and music and and also it was a centre for homosexual activism. I mean, this person didn't talk about that, but, you know, we know that so that there were big organisations there were, you know, there were There were dozens of lesbian gay magazines in Berlin, you know, there were organisations everywhere, [00:41:30] you know, But this person talking about what happened to Jewish people and that said that what had become really clear to them, you know, during the thirties was if this could happen in Germany, which was so progressive, it could happen anywhere and that you could never be certain what might happen in a society. And what you need to think about are the kinds of turns and twists and the things you might accommodate to, and the things that might allow other kinds of regimes to come to power. [00:42:00] What those regimes might do and what we do know is that depressions are dangerous because people start looking for scapegoats. Um, you know, it doesn't take much to fan people up to decide that you know this, this group or that group you know, they are the They are the troublemakers. If we just got rid of them, everything would be fine, you know? And whether you decide that you're going to fan up the flames against Islamists or you're going to fan it up against Chinese immigrants or whether you're going to fan [00:42:30] it up against queer people, Um, it's a very similar kind of mechanism. And, um, I think we have to be very vigilant about that and watchful not only for what is happening to queer people but any kind of any kind of mechanism which starts to create others other the other ring of groups that then it becomes permissible to treat those people as subhuman to start denying them rights to start excluding them and those kinds of things. So I think, [00:43:00] um, although I think it's very good that a generation coming of age in 2010 don't have to go through all the things that, uh, we we we did, um uh, nonetheless, you know, and that they can just live their lives Nonetheless, I think it's very important that they're aware of the history so that they so that they are watchful and so also that they know how you can strategize and how you can fight. If these things [00:43:30] start to happen, what you do immediately I think it's important to have strong organisations because I think, um you just working on your own you very easily get picked off. I think it's very important to have strong organisations and good communications because, you know, that's crucial. Every kind of resistance movement has had a way of, um getting its messages out and OK, so these days we've got the internet and, uh, we texting and, [00:44:00] uh, as against where once on a time, we had to type things up and, uh, and make copies with carbon paper and distribute them like that, I'd say to that, Don't forget, don't forget. Don't forget that technology because if the worst comes to the worst, we might have to do that again because things like the Internet can be controlled. Yeah, things like, you know, I mean, we now learn that Telecom Telecom said they were gonna, uh, call our text [00:44:30] messages. They were gonna get rid of them now, but I didn't even know they clicked that we should have realised that of course, you know. So So we need some kind of independent way of ensuring that we have a method of communication that is independent and it might be very low technology, but that we can manage to do, even if the worst came to the worst. Uh, that's important. And I think it's I think it is important to have strong organisations, [00:45:00] and, uh, it bothers me that we don't have, um, as many organisations as I'd like to see us have And that, uh, and by, you know, membership organisations that, um that are well supported, uh, economically and that, uh, are in a position to act and if when necessary, You know, and all of that, all of that. Thank you [00:45:30] so much for your time and for sharing with us. All of that. Alison, welcome.

IRN: 157
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/margaret_mayman_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003848
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089142
TITLE: Rev. Dr. Margaret Mayman profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Margaret Mayman
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 2000s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Margaret Mayman; St Andrew's on the Terrace; Wellington; lesbian; religion; spirituality
DATE: 18 February 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: St Andrew's on the Terrace, 30 The Terrace, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Margaret talks about religion and spirituality.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um, Margaret Maman is the lesbian minister at Saint Andrews on the terrace, which is a Presbyterian Presbyterian, Um, Christian church. That's not often two things that people kind of think about to mix Gay and Christian and gay Presbyterian. Um, no. But there are a significant number of gay people who are part of Christian communities, and there is quite a number of gay church leaders too worldwide. [00:00:30] So we're, um we're the sort of obviously out welcoming congregation in Wellington. And how does, Um, do you? Are you part of like a bigger group of Presbyterians? And well, there's a Presbyterian church of in New Zealand as the national denomination, and it's varied theologically, and it's varied in terms of its inclusiveness or lack thereof. But there is sort of a network of Progressive Presbyterian churches who, um, because our churches stand on [00:01:00] gay and there's been leadership is not particularly inclusive. But there are a number of us who are continuing to practise being practising, being welcoming and inclusive and hospitable, and and it's just no big deal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And have you always been Have you always been Presbyterian, or have you always been Christian? as well as lesbian or how How Presbyterian Longer than I'd be lesbian. I think, Um, I grew up in Timaru in the South Island, and, um, my family went to the local Presbyterian church [00:01:30] and my, um, on my mother's side of the family, they are Scottish heritage. And so a lot of the people Scottish settlers were Presbyterian, and they came to New Zealand in the 19th century, so yeah, so that's kind of in my bones and blood. And, um and I came out, um, much, much later in my thirties, so Yeah, And when you came out in your thirties, were you really kind of really involved in the church or you were just going or No. I was a minister in a congregation in Christchurch at the time, so and [00:02:00] it was a congregation that I was attracted to because it had made a commitment to being open and inclusive. Um, before I arrived, And, um, before I knew that I was going to need them to be there, Um And for them, it was actually it was quite an interesting process because it was a bit harder for them than I think they thought it might have been, um, but saying that you are happy to have a gay clergy person and actually kind of living with that is two different things, but a lot of them did their very best. So what have been some of the [00:02:30] more varied responses of of people? There are a lot of, um, within the wider Christian community. There are genuinely hostile And, um, you know, threatening almost, um, respon responses. But I don't live with that most, you know, day to day Saint and I came to Saint Andrews as an out lesbian, and that community is very welcoming. And the thing that I like about being able to be visibly out in in a church leadership role is that Saint Andrews is a place [00:03:00] where people know that they can come if they you know, because gay people turn up in all sorts of Christian communities, um and often quite conservative ones. And people realise they're gay, and then they they've got no one in their own community that they can talk to. So it's good to sort of be there at Saint Andrews on the terrace and just be a place where people can come and talk about faith and spirituality and sexuality. Um, and that's I see that as one part of, you know, what we do is being able to provide people with resources about biblical interpretations [00:03:30] and things that really, you know, can be quite distressing for people. So what are some of the biblical interpretations? Well, in the Old Testament, people quote, um, the texts of terror from Leviticus, uh, which say, you know, a man shall not lie with a man as with a woman, um, is one that's frequently quoted but the interesting thing when you look back at that society, they had no concept of, um of [00:04:00] a variety of sexual orientation. They assumed that God had created, you know, male and female and only the heterosexual versions of those. So they saw homosexual activity as being against nature and therefore being against God. They were also in a situation where they were constantly imperilled as a people, and so reproduction was very important. So the teachings against homosexual acts, and are are there along with teachings against masturbation [00:04:30] and any kind of sexual activity that wasn't going to be procreative. So now that we know, we know a lot more about science and and reproduction is actually not an imperative in the 21st century, there are plenty of us. Um, heterosexuals are not dying out, it appears. Um, then it's, you know, we we can look at this in a different way. I mean, they thought the earth was flat, too. I mean, and they were, you know, they were amazing people for their time, and they, you know, they really, um, did try and understand what it meant to live in community [00:05:00] and to, um to have a sense of the sacred and to tell their stories. But, you know, we we don't follow every word that they said. And then in the New Testament, there are, um not Jesus said nothing, um, about sexuality. It does appear that he crossed all kinds of gender and social boundaries and was a sort of disruptor of the status quo in lots of ways. Saint Paul, um, is much more problematic. But if you look carefully at the texts that are quoted, [00:05:30] um, from the the line letters, they're mostly, um, addressing temple prostitution. And, um, they seem to really be the attacks are are really ways of against homosexual activity. And he also didn't know about homosexual orientation. Um, they're mostly about differentiating the Christian community from the pagan community around about so he he had all sorts of rules and regulations. Um, that was sort of about keeping the community together. [00:06:00] So my my view with all of this is that the context in which those traditions and doctrines and teachings happen has to be taken into account, and we have to engage them, you know, as 21st century people knowing quite different things. So what is it about, I guess, certain people sometimes not even Christians, funnily enough, who will pull certain certain bits out? Um, I guess not. Pull out other bits like, um, you know, not eating shellfish or campaigning against [00:06:30] men who aren't circumcised. Yeah, it's just absolutely selective. And I guess that just goes to, you know, the homophobia that still exists. And people use whatever, you know, resources they can find to to back up their homophobia. But that's what it is. It is their homophobia. Uh, and the the thing that distresses me about biblical interpretation is that the people who quote the stuff about sexuality ignore all the teachings about economic justice. And if you cut all the verses out of the Bible that have [00:07:00] to do with homosexuality, you'd have six or eight little holes in the Bible. If you cut everything out about economic justice, the Bible would fall apart. Um, it's, you know, it's far more. About what? About what the Jewish and the Christian traditions were on about. Selective, selective reading? Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I You know, I think being part of a faith community is not for everybody. And there are some people who you know, go through their lives, and you know, it's not an important thing for them. But for those people who do want [00:07:30] to belong to a faith community, I think they have the right to if they're gay or lesbian or bisexual or transgender or polyamorous is the latest, Um, people who come to Saint Andrews are, so you know, it's all a learning curve. Did you ever struggle with either your faith or coming out? Um, did they ever seem to be in opposition? No. And I think that's because I grew up in a fairly liberal tradition, and I was theologically educated before I came out. So I had a way of interpreting the Bible that [00:08:00] took context seriously. And I knew a lot of gay people. You know, Um, I studied in, um, Union Theological Seminary in New York. And, um, one of the things I really enjoyed about it when I went from Dunedin, which is where I done my first theological degree to New York, was that they had a gay and lesbian caucus at the theological school. So there were people articulating what it was to be gay and Christian who've been part of my life for quite a long time. I also liked that that seminary had a pub and a childcare centre. [00:08:30] So how long were you? So you went over over to New York to study, and I was there for 12 years. It was one of those long, very long study, two PhD programmes they do in the States, so yeah, um, but I was lucky. I had the kind of visa that let me work. So I was able to do some teaching and some other interesting work. And I had a child when I was there, too. So it was a It was definitely the slow track on the PhD, though. And when you came back to you knew that you wanted to keep on ministering [00:09:00] being in ministry. Yes. Yes, I did. And, um, I really hadn't had much experience in parish ministry before I went. But I, I thought the things that I believed about my faith were about, um, the spirit nourishing us to make the world a better place for everyone. And I think you need to do that in a community. And I thought that a faith community would be a good place to do that work and I. I still think that it's a really privileged, um, job to have, because it's every day is different. And I'm, you know, here in at Saint Andrews, [00:09:30] I'm freed by the congregation to do work. Um, to do that, you know, talking to gay and lesbian people. But I also, um, am involved with, at the moment with, um, refugee resettlement issues. And so, you know, it's, um but I work creating worship, which is kind of like an art form with poetry. Really? Um, so yeah, it's It's a It's a wonderful mix of things to do. And what about within, I guess, wider, diverse queer communities or other GL BT I folk. Um, [00:10:00] is there a a confusion that you're a Christian and you're a minister? Or is it any kind of discrimination or prejudice or wonderment? I think there is a bit of wonderment. Um, but I haven't really encountered a great deal of hostility. There's a I, I think, probably for women. I mean, I went through, you know, in the seventies and eighties, training for ministry late seventies. I should say, um, that there were a lot of feminists who wondered why women would want to [00:10:30] stay in, you know, a patriarchal, uh, religion. And so I kind of done a lot of work with feminist communities talking about basically, it's our right to to the heritage that has been the heritage of our mothers and grandmothers. And and there have always been women in Christian communities. Um, often the history is lost, the names are lost. But some of the scholars have discovered wonderful things about women's involvement in early church communities, So it's kind of like we have a right to be here. Um, and I, I try and explain that same thing [00:11:00] to to gay and lesbian people who wonder. But I have I have had crises of, um, about whether it it's possible to remain within the Presbyterian Church of A in New Zealand when it's enacted. Legislation which is discriminated against gay and Les being people in leadership. And I have really struggled with it, um, over the years. But once again, I haven't, you know, I have a com it. I feel like it's not just me. It's the community of Saint Andrews and they they want the church to keep being presented with another. You know, another [00:11:30] vision, another way of being the church, and we can do that. And if we walked away, we wouldn't be able to. So is there quite a lot of difference between the different denominations? And and, um, the Methodist Church has a good policy, Um, that so it's, um, inclusive in terms of its leadership. But it's my experience of my gay and lesbian friends in the Methodist Church that that doesn't stop the prejudice at local levels. And so they actually find it quite hard to get, um, clergy positions [00:12:00] within congregations in the Anglican Church in New Zealand. It varies on diocese and those sort of regional group, depending on whether your bishop is going to be helpful or not. Um, the Catholic Church, you know, I know the gay priests in the Catholic Church, but, uh, they, you know, clearly from a hierarchical point of view, there are no gay priests in the Catholic Church. But there are some wonderful, you know, um, people, you know, working in the in the Catholic system, And they I think they've kind of reconciled the what they can do with the community that they're part [00:12:30] of. And they have quite a different feeling about that than they do about the hierarchy in New Zealand and in Rome. So, yes, so it does vary And the, you know, the difference between what the official statements are and what the practise is is pretty significant. Um, once I heard you talk about spiritual violence. Yeah, and and I guess it really kind of resonated with me and being raised in a Christian family and kind of hearing. Can you talk a little bit [00:13:00] about Well, I think that the teachings that condemn gay and lesbian people and tell you that you can't be a person of faith, and gay and lesbian do actually do violence to our spirits. So, uh, and I think that's one of the most shocking things that the church continues to do. And it it distresses me that people in evangelical church communities [00:13:30] that teach homophobia don't understand the impact of what they're doing. They don't understand that young people growing up on their communities may actually harm themselves or take their own lives as a result of what they hear about themselves. So yeah, it is. It's it's dangerous, um, stuff. And and I think it's really important that people of faith confront those churches that are doing that. Do you know whether gay or lesbian or trans or intersex [00:14:00] the the the the the um, ministers or pastors or in Well, my my my own partner is, um, works as um, a a chaplain in elderly care. Um, I have another gay, um friend in Wellington who's a hospital chaplain. Um, and there's there's a gay clergy, um, men in Auckland in the parish. So Yeah, there, Um, and there are others who have been in parish ministry but [00:14:30] are now in other sort of more outside and that quite a number of gay people are involved in forms of chaplaincy. Um, because there aren't many congregations like Saint Andrews that are sort of so utterly welcoming. Has Saint Andrew's always been welcoming? Has there been big struggles, or has it always been? Really? I think it's been progressive for a long time, like over 25 years. I think it was in the eighties and it, but it's had a history of, uh, social justice work that [00:15:00] goes back beyond that, Um, the minister, too, before me was very involved in the, um, anti Springbok tour movement. And so they, as a congregation have been used to thinking about the political implications of their faith and even way, way back when it was probably more of a traditional parish church. Um, and one of the ministers was involved in supporting the strikers in the waterfront strike and the 1950 when that was 1950 something. Um, so, yeah, so they've, you know, they had that kind of that [00:15:30] background of of being engaged in an ordinary life, Um, which is just it's a wonderful legacy that that we continue to to grow and to develop. So it's not just, um, queer people that make up the congregation. No. Absolute no, it's a real mix, Um, and that's a That's a nice thing that it's sort of There are enough queer people that there's kind of recognition and and feeling like there's, you know, safety in numbers. But there's also, um, just a feeling like, [00:16:00] you know, I think some people won't know who's gay and who's not. And and unless you know, they get to know a particular person better, obviously, then they'll know because there's no need to hide either. But it it isn't, um most of the time it's not an issue. And there, you know, there are. There are kids from babies to, um, you know, through school age. And they're I think our oldest active member is currently just about to turn 92. So, um, yeah, so it's, you know, it's great to have that diversity of gender and age [00:16:30] and some diversity of social class. Not very diverse, racially, Um, but yeah, it's, as you know, having visited. And so with the Saint Andrews, um, is it church service? I guess. Is it quite a traditional church service or are they all just really varied across the board? I think in some ways the structure of our service is quite traditional. So we follow a traditional liturgy, um, that you would recognise in lots of Christian churches around the world. [00:17:00] But the content of what we do, the words that we use and we don't have a prayer book. So we we either write or find, um, liturgies that work for whatever theme or biblical passage or whatever, you know, event that we're kind of reflecting on. And I think it's that freedom within in the service that that expresses our are very contemporary understandings of faith. And we are blessed in New Zealand to have some wonderful writers of contemporary hymns. So we sometimes sing a hymn from the tradition. [00:17:30] Um, and even then I change the words if they're too awful. But I like the tune. Um, but But we also have a lot of new things that we can choose that really. I think people singing, um, is not something that people do much, you know, in an ordinary society. But it is It is a way of, um, kind of. It's almost like sharing your face with other people. When you sort of you sing what you believe and and then the music has a kind of energised when it goes well, um, and energising uplifting aspect [00:18:00] to it as well. Yeah, singing was definitely something I missed. When when I stopped going to church after leaving home, you know, rugby matches when the Welsh are here, sort of when New Zealand is in public now. Quite karaoke. Yes, yes. When you drunk or whatever. Um, so apart from the Sunday morning church service, um, what else does Saint Andrew's host or do? Well, there are two main other things that happen during the week. Um, every week we have [00:18:30] a free lunchtime concert, and they're often more in the sort of classical vein. But they, um, but also jazz and and singing and various other things. Uh, and that's part of recognising that all around us there are lots of people working in the central city, and so we provide a kind of little island of tranquilly, um, on Wednesdays at lunchtime. Sometimes the music last week was serious. Obviously, um, avant garde and bizarre. Um, [00:19:00] and other times it's you know, really, you know, traditional classical music, sometimes really funky jazz stuff. So it's, um, people could just come along and they can eat their lunch in church and come and go as they need to go. So that's a a good thing. And then not every week. But quite often we'll have, um, lecture series or visiting speakers who reflect on issues related to church and society. And sometimes they're quite theologically oriented and sometimes more just on broader social issues. And then we're lucky enough to be able to have the church [00:19:30] open, Um, six days a week. So where we are located is a sort of busy part of town. But the structure of the church means it's quite a quiet place inside, and it's surprisingly light and peaceful, Um, in the middle of a busy area. So people do just come and sit. Um and, you know, pray reflect whatever it is that they're doing. And we we've sort of tried to say that this it's not just for Christians. It's for anybody who just wants a place to sit and be still in the middle [00:20:00] of everything that's going on. And I noticed, you know, with the the beginning of the economic downturn. And a lot of, um, public servants were losing jobs and teams are being restructured. There were more people who just sort of obviously coming just for a quiet place to kind of think. And if people wanted to talk to somebody, there's some often someone around. But usually it's just, you know, being centred and just having a little time out. So it's good to be able to offer that because it's a and a very expensive [00:20:30] building to maintain our historic church. And it's it would be tragic if it was only used an hour or two a week. So it's, uh, being hospitable about that is good and and we're looking more at developing. Um uh, the art side of things. More music. Um, but we've got an arts festival coming up in Wellington and we've got a special series. Um, that will be running through that, and we're looking more at visual arts, too. We've had a couple of art exhibitions because it's lovely, you know, light space [00:21:00] and and being a Protestant church, there's not a lot of ornamentation, so it's kind of like a bit of a blank canvas. Um, so we're looking to talk to artists and sort of to be a place where people can exhibit. Um And I think that will also be another reason that people will have to cross the threshold and just enjoy the space. And yeah, and sometimes we have, you know, other people can use the church, too. We're not, um, and some churches, you know, you can only use it for [00:21:30] worship, but whereas we concerts, lectures, public meetings, I mean, I remember when there was a lot of focus on whether our cricketers should go to Zimbabwe. We had some public meetings around that and, you know, it issues around the civil Union time when that legislation was being looked at, we were a place where people could meet and talk about those kind of things. So it's good to be able to do all of that. Yeah, it's definitely very inclusive. I remember, um, having a few youth group Queer Youth [00:22:00] Group, um, sleep over Andrews in the hall. And so that's Yeah, that's been really, really beautiful. And the hall is being renovated at the moment. So the next time they sleep over the bathroom facilities will be slightly better, which is good in the kitchen. It's important for youth. What are some of your hopes? Um, not only for for for Christian communities, um, as well as kind of diverse queer communities. What would your hopes be to move towards, [00:22:30] I think just being, you know, providing places where people can talk to each other and talk about things that are important. I think more are more and more interested in being a place. You know, how we can be a place for dialogue about issues that divide us or that are difficult. Um, and and I would you know, some of those will be issues that particularly affect gay and lesbian, bisexual and transgender people. But others are just issues that are facing us as people on the planet [00:23:00] when we're, you know, facing climate change. And, um, you know, quite worrying developments in terms of, you know, economic power alliances. And, uh and I, you know, looking at issues about what what government can provide for people and what it will and won't in the future. And sort of how communities can look after each other if things do get more difficult in those areas. So all of those things are, um, important. And I think, you know, as far as queer people are concerned, [00:23:30] we sometimes we can kind of rest easy in Wellington because we can be ourselves. We can, you know, go out with our partners and our friends and, um, just, you know, not have to worry. But I was recently at a family funeral in Gore, and there was an article in which is in the in the deep south of New Zealand for those who don't know, um, and that we, the Presbyterians are are very strong. And there was a really sad article in the, um, giveaway, you know, weekly paper, um, about a Gore's [00:24:00] first civil union and that the paper had been going to cover this couple's, uh, civil union and, um in an affirming and celebratory kind of way. But the couple's family, um, had talked them out of it, saying that it would actually be dangerous, and it would be stupid for them to be out and visible. And I thought, you know, we we often forget in Wellington that, um that New Zealand is a provincial New Zealand is really still a very hard place to be gay and people you know, interviewed for the article said, you know, there was, You [00:24:30] know, there were a couple of lesbians in Gore, but they kept to themselves, and you sort of think, Oh, chances are that, uh, there are, you know, many more than that, but yeah. So I think that's probably something that those of us who are interested in the well-being of gay and lesbian people need to keep paying attention to And and, you know, not just kind of rock on in Auckland and Wellington and enjoy our lives. Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing with us. And, yeah, all your thoughts on on spirituality [00:25:00] and and vigilance and continuing to To keep thinking, I guess, and being aware. Thanks. Hannah. Yes.

IRN: 141
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/bill_logan_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003849
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089143
TITLE: Bill Logan profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Bill Logan
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: Bill Logan; Wai Ho; Wellington; activism; gay; gay liberation movement; homosexual law reform; human rights; politics; profile; transcript online
DATE: 24 February 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Bill talks about growing up, being an activist and his role in homosexual law reform.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So here we have the respectable Bill Logan, who's a counsellor? A gay activist and a revolutionist. Tell us a bit about that, Bill. Oh, my goodness. Which part of it the respectable part? Oh, why not? Um, no, I'm not very respectable. Um, I I. I, um I guess I grew up in the fifties and sixties when New Zealand was a very [00:00:30] quiet place, and I probably found that rather boring and then hit university and the Anti-war movement and got involved in protests and student power and all sorts of things like that, and spent my twenties mostly overseas, building a small left wing organisation, uh, and [00:01:00] learned a hell of a lot about Marxism and that way of looking at the world. Uh, Marxism is a programme or an idea for changing things, but it's also an analysis of how things are now. And both of those things have stayed with me. I still want to change things fundamentally, Uh, and I still think that it's important to have intellectual [00:01:30] frameworks to understand things. Uh, and the Marxist intellectual framework is the one that I think works best. So how did you get from kind of quiet, small New Zealand to wanting to do student politics and activism and Marxism and social change stuff. I. I guess that that had a lot to do with being at university at the right time [00:02:00] and probably also to do with being a gay man and not yet recognising it and therefore not quite fitting a and struggling to find a way to fit and a way to understand what it was which didn't work about me in the world. And you try all sorts of things that takes a while. And if you're slow like me, uh, to, [00:02:30] uh um, to see that actually, one very important part of it is a sexuality, which is, uh, a minority sexuality. So what was it like? I guess not fitting in, but feeling like you didn't fit in, What was the kind of climate like around gay stuff? Was it just not talked about, or was it actually quite vehement and anti or was mostly not talked about? Um I do remember occasional [00:03:00] bits that were talked about. I remember a forum on the laws about homosexuality at university in, say 1967. Where did you go to university Uh, and, um, this policeman a police superintendent was talking about You know why it was necessary to maintain [00:03:30] these laws. I didn't recognise myself as gay, but I and the people that I knew thought the laws were stupid. Um, and this guy was worrying mostly about anal damage through, you know, it was sort of bizarre, and an damage was against the law. There should be a law to prevent people putting them themselves in a position where anal damage might occur. Apparently, um and it just [00:04:00] seemed it seemed silly. Um, and it was possible to to to see the law as stupid, without without identifying as as gay at all. I didn't I don't. I realised now that I was gay back then, but I'd I'd hidden that from myself under all sorts of things. And I didn't have a fantasy life at all. I just, um, So you had that for any [00:04:30] particular reason or subconsciously or you didn't really know why or certainly didn't know why. Because I didn't know what was going on. Um I can see now that the costs of being gay in the early 19 sixties would have been enormous. No one was openly gay and got anywhere. No one had a real job who was openly gay that I knew. Um, I didn't. [00:05:00] I know there were one or two people that you could see in the distance who were rumoured to be gay or might have been gay or looked effeminate and probably were gay. Um, and, uh, lesbianism. Well, I'd heard of lesbianism, but that seemed even more mysterious. Um, um, so no. So what was happening in the eighties? Because you had a lot of stuff to do with homosexual law reform? What was happening then that, [00:05:30] you know, made people go right? This has got to change. Had attitudes really changed by that stage, and the law was trying to follow, or was it really not happening? And everybody just got sick of it or hm? I. I think that, as I said in in in 1967 already a lot of liberal university students and lecturers, uh, thought that the law was stupid. There was a big population of [00:06:00] people by then who already saw the law as silly. Um, but, uh, it was a minority all the same. Uh, that minority probably grew right through the seventies and also the various liberation movements. The women's liberation, Uh, various black power movements. Um, and, uh, so on they that those create a climate in which fighting for your own rights and a place in the world [00:06:30] was part of the way things were. And so in that framework, particularly after stonewall, which were 69 there was the development of of a gay liberation movement which had its reflections in New Zealand. And there are a lot of important pioneers that were working there. Um, and so you have this generational thing the previous generation had been, [00:07:00] uh, a a response to the wolfenden report, Um, which in New Zealand was expressed through the homosexual law Reform Society. Um, and they had the more liberal kinds of things, and they they were probably the people who organised the meeting, Uh, that we were talking about on the campus, uh, where this policeman was talking. Um, so you see, you get these layers of, uh, in in each generation, it's done in a slightly different [00:07:30] way. Uh, and, uh, in the early eighties, you had those two previous, um, layers of people and then you also had an apparent chance. It looked as if the politics could could go through in Parliament. And at that point, um, quite a lot of people got involved The big, big meetings. Uh, and [00:08:00] the one or two politicians who said, Yeah, we'll go for this. And so, uh, Fran Wilder eventually introduced a bill. How did Middle New Zealand respond? So you talked about kind of, um, there was a building building group of minorities that were like, This is a stupid law. What was what was the response of Middle New Zealand? What did you not really have anything to do with anymore? But it's a It's a good question. Um, [00:08:30] and I'm not sure that Middle New Zealand at first worried much one way or the other. Um, I think that at first it was mostly people who already had fairly well developed liberal intellectual ideas and gay and lesbian people and perhaps feminists who were for law reform and religious nutters on the other side who were opposed. [00:09:00] And most people didn't give a damn. And that was what happened during the time that the law reform was being debated in Parliament. Uh, where Middle New Zealand just couldn't avoid the question. And you had, uh, things in the paper every day and things on television all the time and demonstrations and petitions and stalls [00:09:30] on street corners and and and, you know, a lot of attention given so that every news bulletin practically had something about this homosexual law reform, and they started to have to make up their mind. And right from the start, I think most of them felt well, Why not? You know, it's nothing to do with me. Um, but that position sort of solidified [00:10:00] and became stronger, and a lot of people became more aware of the issues. A lot of lesbian and gay people came out during that period. And that meant that people who thought they'd never met anyone who was lesbian or gay realised that actually their brother was lesbian or gay, uh, or someone at work or someone they they drank with or whatever. Uh and so the amount of knowledge [00:10:30] about and of lesbian gay people just exploded in that period, and you'd come out by the stage or Yeah, well, I mean I I was a slow development IIII. I came out to myself in my late 20 and I really didn't. And I'd start to get involved in gay communities in Wellington. I've been overseas. Came back [00:11:00] to Wellington in 1980 got involved a bit, and then we were starting to have to do things public. Uh um, I had a bookshop. I was selling gay books, among other things. Uh, and my bookshop was a bit of a community centre. And what was your bookshop called? Capital Books. Um, and and [00:11:30] yeah, the the the, uh, the bill was about to be introduced. And the Cardinal Cardinal Williams made a statement saying how terrible this bill was. And the television people said, You know, you've got to put someone up to oppose him. And in the circle of people that were organising, everyone either had a job they were worried about or felt very young and inexperienced. I was just a little bit older, [00:12:00] and some people said you better better front this bill. So I found myself, uh, debating the cardinal on on television. Uh, and I think that's the way all my family and friends learned that I was gay was, uh, on national TV came out. That's fantastic. Were there lots of different groups working on on law reform? And you were [00:12:30] saying, you know, working with the lesbians or feminists people for law reform. What was that like? Well, I mean it. It was in Wellington where I was based and where we were lucky, because the newspaper was more open to publishing stuff than anywhere else. So we got a bigger, a bigger swing of in New Zealand. Yeah, we got a bigger swing of opinion in Wellington than anywhere else. That was for a whole lot of reasons, One [00:13:00] of which was we did more on the streets. We involved more, more people. We in we, we we we had a definite policy of engaging and involving gay people and lesbian people in their own interests. Um, and so there was a bigger sense of movement here. Um hm. But, um, the thing is that there was this this huge variety involved There were there were the party boys [00:13:30] who wanted law reform, but really wanted to have fun on Saturday night. Um, there were the old timers who'd been slogging away at homosexual law reform for years and would have accepted the slightest change. Uh, there were radicals who, um, wanted to, uh, you know, abolish uh, all sexual division and and didn't see it, even as a political [00:14:00] thing. But a social thing, Um, there were There were the feminists. There were a variety of different currents within the lesbian movement. Uh, there were nasty, misogynist old men. There were, um and everyone sort of wanted this common goal, but holding them together. And some of them thought that there should be nothing happen in the street because we'd look bad and that we [00:14:30] should be utterly polite everywhere. And when when our opponents said nasty, homophobic things at their public meetings, we should just accept that was other people wanted to do more than throw rotten tomatoes at them. And everyone thought that everyone else was destroying the possibilities of change. And I had the position of that. We actually needed everyone. We particularly needed [00:15:00] the feminists because the core support in the Labour Party was the Labour Party women. And if we didn't have the support of the feminists, we wouldn't get the support of the Labour Party. Women and the lesbians were really, really, really important. Therefore, Um, and some of the some of the guys thought that the lesbians were completely irrelevant to it, and we could They were more [00:15:30] trouble than they were worth. And they demanded too much attention and so on. And sometimes I thought they demanded too much attention, too. But, you know, you had to accept that. Um and, uh, then, uh, the the the, uh we needed the misogynist old men because they had lots of money. And we had to be nice to them because, you know, we had to get money out of them because we didn't have any money at all. You know, the opposition had, uh, considerable [00:16:00] funds from American fundamentalists and things like that. And we we didn't We didn't have a pen and you had to. The Auckland gay guys had a bit more than us, but we needed some in Wellington, too. And, um, we, uh we had to be nice to the the the these guys, and and and to keep diplomatic relations with them. So, in a way, that was my main role was being a sort of diplomat of sort of keeping everyone [00:16:30] happy with one another, and it all happened. Luckily, um, So what are the big changes that you've kind of seen within? Yeah. I don't know. If you think that there's a queer community or communities What have been the kind of shifts that has happened since law reform? Do people kind of think Oh, thank goodness we don't have to work together anymore. See you later. Oh, it might be a little bit like that. It's interesting, because, um, before law reform, [00:17:00] while we were still illegal, there were two major clubs. Um, couple of two or three bars, Uh, couple of six on site venues. Uh, you know, there's a whole lot more than now. You know what? There's no clubs. There's, you know, one bar, 111 sort of nightclub, life type place. [00:17:30] Uh, that's all in a in a but in Wellington. And I think that's representative of right around the the the the country. Do you notice any differences between Wellington and Auckland? You're saying that Wellington did a lot of street stuff? Yeah, Wellington has. It's a funny town because I don't know it. It might have to do with the whole design of the city and being held in by the the hills and things like that. But it's a very [00:18:00] concentrated city and it means that, um we get together as a community, even if it's only to fight um much more easily than in Auckland, where people sort of spread out too far away to fight. So they I. I think there's a lot more activists in Auckland, but somehow they never get to critical Mass because they never manage to get together. And I think that's the way it was [00:18:30] then. I I'm exaggerating. I did some huge stuff in Auckland, Uh, and but it was led by a group which was less open. I mean, in our case, we had a gay task force. Anyone could go along to those meetings and it was there that decisions were made, uh, once a week and usually it was a small group. People trusted that small group to make [00:19:00] decisions, but occasionally there was something really important, like a big argument about whether we have a demonstration or we should be respectable and everyone would come together and argue that out. And it it was a way of involving people, and it was a way which required people to make compromises sometimes. Whereas in Auckland there was nothing quite equivalent. There was a leadership, but it had a definite policy. [00:19:30] Uh, and it, uh, managed to to keep control of things. And it it it it there There were some messages there that from the gatehouse and force of Auckland that we wouldn't have wanted to endorse. Like, for example, there was an upsurge of anti gay violence. Um, the Wellington response was we're gonna have lessons in self defence, and we're gonna get TV cameras along to to show everyone [00:20:00] that we are learning how to look after ourselves in Auckland. The advice was, Well, don't go anywhere without company. And be careful, um and and and so there's a slightly different kind of way of doing things. So what would you say to people now? Kind of saying, Well, you know, I've had law reform. You had civil unions. Um, pretty much, you know, there's no homophobia. Everybody's sweet ass and things are much better now or [00:20:30] what degrees of truth Or do you think that is? Well, certainly, you know, there are many opportunities for gay people to be openly gay and to lead lives which are OK in terms of the rest of the population. And people can go have a good career in many, many areas, uh, and be openly gay. You can be a gay doctor [00:21:00] or a gay bureaucrat or a gay businessman, um, with without any problems at work or without many problems at work. But, um, try being a gay high school student in New Plymouth. Um, and that's not quite so easy. Uh, or, um, actually, just try to be, uh, uh, an ordinary member [00:21:30] of a gay family of a of a straight family and be gay and realise you're gay at the age of 25 and negotiate your way through explaining to everyone that things are a little bit different than they thought. Not easy. And so there are still quite serious issues. Youngsters who can be very depressed, [00:22:00] Um suicidality, uh, really important thing that just amongst young people or ages, uh, the there's no doubt that young people are especially at risk, but anyone who is a bit marginalised can be at risk of suicide. And the fact is that [00:22:30] older people are also marginalised on account of their sexuality. It's just not as pervasive and as strong as it was, but someone's got one or two other things going on in their life or comes from a religious family background. Or there's a lot of a lot of if you get down to specifics, it can be quite difficult for many, many people. So you're still interested in in social change? [00:23:00] Um, what are some of the other things that you do? I. I know that you have various hats that you wear. Oh, well, um well, yesterday I spent at a at a governance workshop. I'm on the board. I'm the chairman of the board of something called the, um Drugs and Health Development Project, which runs the needle exchanges [00:23:30] in the lower half of the North Island for intravenous intravenous drug users. It's something that I got involved in, rather by mistake. Um, as happens in life. Um, there was some television talk show about aids early on, and people rang in with their questions, and we dealt with the necessity [00:24:00] for homosexual law reform. Uh, and, uh, that was being This was in, say 1984 85. I don't know, 84. It would have been uh and you know, we we talked about that on this television show, and the panel had come to agreement that, yes, we needed law reform in order to deal with AIDS, which was part of my objective for being there. But then someone rang out in with [00:24:30] a question of How are you going to deal with AIDS and needle users? And I made the obvious point that the same principles applied and that you weren't going to be able to deal with the possibility and the likelihood of transmission of HIV through needles without changing the law liberalising it, making needles easily available and preferably, uh, ending the illegal status of drugs. Well, of course, this, [00:25:00] uh, was not popularly received, uh, by the minister of Health, who was also on the panel. And I just said, Well, you know, you've got to decide, don't you? Whether you want to deal with this phenomenon of HIV aids or not, And if you're going to deal with it, you're gonna have to do something like that. And And as it happened, there were some bureaucrats in the ministry who saw the point and very quickly, a needle [00:25:30] exchange scheme was put into place. Um, but, uh, it just that intervention led needle users in Wellington to think that I might be a useful person sometimes. And so I have found myself having a continuing role here, which is fascinating. Um, it's it's really, um, you know, it's a it's a world. I, uh Yeah, I [00:26:00] wouldn't have come across perhaps in quite the same way anyway without this. And it's very satisfying in that. I think that we've been hugely successful, more successful than anywhere in the world, in keeping, uh, HIV out of the needle using population. Uh, and that's because not only do we give away clean needles, uh, but we [00:26:30] have users on the desks giving them away giving advice. And And, you know, the users obviously have some moral authority with other users, and they can talk about all the other things which you can do to keep yourself healthy. Um, and washing your hands actually is quite important, you know, to needle use and philtres for different things. Important So all sorts of self [00:27:00] care, which is necessary, um, and needle users are probably some of the healthiest needle users in the world and that saves money. And people mightn't care about the welfare and safety of needle users. I do. But people mightn't, But they do care about, uh, money and health dollars. And we've saved a shit load of them, frankly. So where would you like? Um, I guess diverse [00:27:30] queer communities in in Wellington, also in New Zealand to head or some of the places that you'd like things to progress towards. That's a good question. Uh, and I don't think I know the answer because perhaps we can't lay down a prescription of where we're going to head. What we need is the abolition of the of the of the barriers which prevent us hitting where we need to go depending on [00:28:00] on on what we want. Um, and some of those barriers have come down. But what are the ones that you see are still around? Well, it's still quite difficult to have decent relationships with another generation. It's it's difficult for gay and lesbian people to bring up kids, for example, can be done and and you know, lots of my friends are doing it, [00:28:30] and it's becoming easier, but we don't have a, um a good framework for it. Uh, it's not possible for, uh, AAA gay or lesbian couple to adopt as a couple. That's ridiculous. That that will change surely very quickly. But I'm not sure how How much difference that in itself will make. It's a important symbolic thing. Um, but, um, I think in general, [00:29:00] uh, it it's difficult to, uh, for younger gay people and older gay people to connect. And I think that's important because we don't yet know how to aim our lives very well because we haven't got very good role models. Uh, it's, you know, we learn how to be old from the people around us [00:29:30] that we know who are old. And if we don't know people who are old of our own life type, then we're missing so important connections and lessons and models. So I think that's, you know, I'd like to see better connections between generations, but on the whole generations, perhaps aren't very interested in other generations you've got take the realities into account. Cool. Thank you very much. [00:30:00] Bill Logan. Respectable Bill Logan for, um, yarn with us and sharing with us.

IRN: 152
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/madam_mary_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003850
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089144
TITLE: Madam Mary profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Madam Mary
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 1980s; Madam Mary; gender identity; sex; sexuality
DATE: 10 March 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Madam Mary talks about the sex industry and being bendy.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So here we have, Madam Mary, who's also a mistress, Mariah, which is the same person. Welcome. Um, So how long have you been involved in this industry? Um, I've been involved in the sex industry for approximately 14 years now. As a madam, I started out as a madam. Um, one of my personal strengths is people management. So I started managing brothels. Um, and then that evolved into becoming a dominatrix and having my own high [00:00:30] class brothel, which is where we are now. So it's a smaller group of specialised people. Um, but yeah, 14 years I've been involved in the industry. So what made you go into brothels instead of banks for managing people? Um, it was something that just happened. I I've always known since I was quite young, that I would end up working in the sex industry. I was brought up Catholic, um, a fabulously loving family. Um, but I always know. I always remember having a thing about nuns and priests saying about Mary [00:01:00] Magdalene being a prostitute. But Christ forgave her anyway. And I remember as a small child thinking, Well, what's wrong with that? So there was always this thing in my head that somewhere deep down I knew that I would end up working in the sex industry. I don't know how or why. Well, I do know how or why now, but, um, yeah, I've I've tried. I tried on many occasions when I was younger to get into the sex industry, first as a worker. But I realised very quickly when it said that all massages are done fully nude, that it wasn't for me. Um, and so many years later, I ended [00:01:30] up trying for jobs as receptionists, which again never happened for various reasons. And then finally, 14 years ago, I got into it, and here I am still in it, probably for the rest of my life. So when the other little girls wanted to be ballerinas and you know, firefighters and space men that you that was always what you wanted to do, I Well, I didn't necessarily want to be a prostitute as such, because I didn't really understand what it was, but I just always had the sense of that. There was some injustice. The [00:02:00] fact that Mary Male was seen as lowly, um, because she was a prostitute. Even though I fully didn't really understand what it was that a prostitute was. I just knew it was wrong how they were phrasing it and looking at it. So, yeah, I just, you know, one of those spooky things that has followed me through my life. Yeah. And did your folks know along the whole way Did you, when you were little, I said, this is what I want to do and said, 00, OK. No, I don't believe I ever voiced it to anybody because I don't think [00:02:30] it's when I look back on it that I remember those feelings as a child. I don't think I consciously went through my life thinking I want to be in the sex industry. I just knew that there were several times throughout my life when I tried to get into the sex industry. It felt it was just something that I knew was going to happen at some stage. And I just, you know, took opportunities as they arose to enter the sex industry. So what have been some of the responses of people, your friends or your family when you've told them what you do when they found out what [00:03:00] you. You do? Um, all of my friends think it's fantastic. Um, they've always loved the fact that I've been a madam because they know that whatever I do, I do well, and I'm also extremely fair. And, um, you know, they've always seen it as a good thing for the sex industry basically to have me and that, you know, I would be helping the sex industry be a better place. Um, and all of my friends have similar outlooks to me on [00:03:30] life in general. Um, and human rights and things. So, you know, they've seen it as a good human rights move. From my point of view, Um, my family, I have four older brothers. They all seem to think that I'm old enough and ugly enough to know what I'm doing. And, you know, they've never judged me for it. My mother was a little bit confused about it when my aunties and uncles would ask What's Mary up to her and mom would go, um, she's working in the adult entertainment scene. And because I sing, they'd all go. Oh, she's into her singing Finally. And my mother didn't quite. She doesn't quite understand [00:04:00] what I do now, but she is, you know, fairly aged. Um, and yeah, it's a bit confusing for her, but she certainly doesn't judge me for it. She knows again that I'm I know what I'm about, and I know what I'm doing. So she doesn't see it as anything bad. 2002 was a pro shoots reform act. Is that correct? Something like that. Something about prostitutes, reform, act, law reform, something along the lines. Um, and that was kind of, uh, you know, set as something that divided the feminist [00:04:30] community or or whatever in regards to people thinking, you know, that, um, sex work was inherently, I guess, oppressive to women and and you set set on a board or a parliamentary board After the reform was passed, Um, there was a five year it was a parliamentary review board. Just reviewing the laws and seeing how, um, how it worked. Basically checking up on things like bylaws. Because, of course, there were lots of knee jerk reactions from local councils and all sorts of people. You know, people living in the streets where there were street workers [00:05:00] writing, you know, getting petitions together to try and get the street workers kicked off the street and you know all those sorts of things. So the reform the review board was set up to monitor for five years, um, after the reform to make sure that everything you know worked well, um, and I was on that I was the only industry person that was working, that there were people who had been in the industry previous but weren't on the in the industry when they when they were on the review board. But it was a very interesting [00:05:30] thing for me. I sort of felt like a a lightweight because a lot of it was legal, you know, cos more council type stuff that I didn't really have a huge amount of, um, input into, But I enjoyed it. I learned a lot. And, you know, I'm sure I had some. I was of some help along the way. I hope I was. So what would you kind of say about, you know, people who would say that that sex work is is really negative for women, I would say, And you don't know what the sex industry is all about until you've actually worked in it. And [00:06:00] when you are positive about anything, then anything that that happens around you is going to be more positive. Anyway, um, I've seen the exact opposite with the sex industry. I've seen women who have had absolutely no control over their lives all of their life until they've come into the sex industry. Um, and then finally, they get to the stage where they are getting paid for having sex. They're getting adored by men. They're getting told how beautiful they are. Um, they do have control over their finances. They have control over when they work. [00:06:30] Um, there's a fantastic camaraderie. Um, that happens in the sex industry that, like I said, unless you've worked in the industry, you wouldn't see that it also has its downside, but doesn't everything. You know, there's always bad stuff going on in any industry. Um, I would say that I have seen more empowerment of women from working in this industry. I personally know that until I started being a dominatrix, which is about four years ago now, three or four years ago, um, my level of [00:07:00] self esteem was way lower. I am the cockiest woman you've ever met. Now I know how fabulously gorgeous I am and how powerful I am and that I am actually truly a goddess, and I mean that in a wonderful way. And that's through being a sex worker. And I wasn't a sex worker as a madam, but I am as a dominatrix. So I'm proud to say I'm a sex worker. So what do you think all the negative attitudes come from for, you know, women being sex workers or maybe anybody being sex workers For that case, um, the media, uh, people not understanding [00:07:30] what the industry is people taking what they want out of what they see about the sex industry, obviously the most seeing people in the sex industry. Street workers, they often look a bit tragic. They're often drunk on drugs, they often have pimps or minders. They sometimes probably turn up with black eyes. And, you know, I don't know, track marks. Um they are often women who can't or workers sex workers who can't get work in parlours because of perhaps, you [00:08:00] know, for for legal reasons, Um, and I think that people, that's what people say about the sex industry, that unless you've worked in a massage parlour then or in a in a brothel or in the areas of the industry that I work in. You don't actually know what a sex worker is. If I met someone, then not whenever I tell people I'm a madam or a dominatrix. People say you're not what I expected. Well, what do you expect? You expect what you see on the street, someone with a very short skirt. You know, ripped stockings, whatever that's, that's what people [00:08:30] expect. And that's why people have a negative attitude. And also because I think it suits a lot of people who have a negative attitude because a lot of women see, um, sex workers as a threat. If they know that their husband might be going to see a sex worker, then it's instantly a threat. I. I know women who have met sex workers at parties and things found out that that woman is a is a working girl and shuffled their husband away from them like a sex worker is going to want to have their husband for free. You know, it's like [00:09:00] if you're a chef, you're not going to go, want to go home and cook for everybody after work. It's just silly attitudes that people just because they don't understand because they don't work in the industry. So they people there needs to be more education about it. And that's why I love talking to people about it. That's why I am very open about what I do. Because whenever I tell people what I do, most people go. Wow, Is it true that And then I can dispel the bad myths. What are some of the bad myths that people have? Well, things like, Is it true that all women come from abuse? Or is it true that all sex workers are drug addicts? [00:09:30] Or is it true that, um, you know, girls get locked up and made to work 15 hour shifts? Is it true that they have to not use condoms? All those sorts of things, all sorts of silly little things that, you know, people hear from someone that are completely untrue. So a lot of kind of misconceptions and preconceived ideas about like sex trafficking. That is amazing when you see these things in the paper about women being sex trafficked. There was a an article in the newspaper about some women in northern England who had been trafficked from an Eastern European country. [00:10:00] And they were being rattled off in a pub. This was in a serious newspaper. I think it was in the Dominion transferred from some international paper and that these women were being were being sold off, not raffled off, but sold off. Um, it would have been a back. It was a back room in a in a pub or a hotel or something. They were being sold off to work as sex slaves, and they were being made to do something like, Oh, God, we can't I can't remember. But we worked it out on something like having sex every 14 minutes, having a different client every 14 minutes. [00:10:30] And that's if there was no lunch break, No dinner break. You know, it was just impossible. But people, of course, read that and go, Oh, that's terrible. But it's so untrue, you know, it's if you talk to the Thai girls, obviously, if they they can't get a work permit to work as a sex worker in New Zealand. So if immigration raid, they're going to say, I was brought here to work in a restaurant. You send them back to their own country thinking you're doing something really good for them. They go back to their village. The village already knows they've been sex workers. They don't [00:11:00] want to know about them. They've lost their livelihood. They're always here working, sending money home to support their families. All the do good has come along and they get these girls sent home to nothing where they could be working here safely. It's just all wrong, you know. It's just all misconceptions. And so is there a real kind of conflation between sex trafficking bad, bad, bad and prostitution? Bad, bad, bad kind of thing. Um, I have to stop that there, because I'm not actually sure what conflict means squashing [00:11:30] together. Same. Same. OK, Um, yes, I yes. I mean, I'm sure there is. I know there would be sex trafficking. There are Children who you know, anyone who's under the age of consent should not be having sex for money, although often they go out and do it themselves because it's the only way they can earn a living. And what they're doing then is actually probably better than what they've come from. So, you know, go figure. But Children, being sex trafficked is not good, and I know it does happen. And I know that women being sex trafficked does happen. But the amount of it [00:12:00] that the media are always prattling on about does not happen. It's women who go into countries and want to work as a sex worker, but it's not legal. Generally you can't go into even in New Zealand, where it's legal to work as a sex worker. As I said, you can't get a work permit to work in the sex industry to come to New Zealand, right? So you can come here as a marine biologist or a banker or something. But you can't say I'd like to come to New Zealand and I'd like to be a sex worker Exactly. I'd like to earn some money and send it home to my family, and the way I want to do it is by being a sex worker [00:12:30] rather than working for minimum wage and exactly on a sewing machine or in a supermarket, or yeah, because then they're only going to have enough money to survive and not send any home I think that's the point. So you got into dominatrix's work about four years ago? What? What kind of brought that on? Um, I've always liked the clothing, but, um, I just It was just a natural progression. Really. I, um It just happened. It was just an an evolving of me. [00:13:00] Um, something I needed to do when I I set up a, um the MM Club initially about five or six years ago, around another dominatrix who I thought was wonderful. And she's very good at what she does. But, um, her skills are fairly limited. And I had a lot of clients who, um, would ask me if I would do sessions. Now, I used to train the assistant, dominate tricks, and I used to do all everything else apart from actually do the sessions. I never thought I could actually do it due to my Like I said before, self esteem [00:13:30] issues. Really, I just didn't think I could do it. I didn't think anyone would ever come back. I didn't think that they'd want to book me in the first place. Um, and so when the business actually went under, I made lots of mistakes the business went under and I had clients ringing me because I kept the work number on because I was still taking bookings for a couple of private ladies. And I had these clients ringing me and asking me, would I just do sessions with them? They would take me through it step by step. They would tell me how to do it, what they wanted. And please, would I do it. And I finally said yes. And someone made a booking with me. An out of town [00:14:00] client. He was coming to see me in, say, three weeks time. Every single night I woke up in a street in a sweat, thinking I can do this. What am I doing? You know, this is just silly. And then it I did those first few sessions and then they kept coming back and more people came. And here I am, sort of three years later from that as a successful popular dominatrix. Um, who has realised that it is definitely a calling for me, you know, just like being a good nurse or [00:14:30] whatever. Being a dominatrix is A is a calling for me because what I do, um, facilitates a lot of healing. A lot of stress relief. Um, all sorts of things. You know, I don't judge anybody for what it is that they want to come to me for. I have a lot of people ringing up and saying You're going to think I'm a bit strange now. I challenge anyone to make me think they're strange with what I know now. So, yeah, So it was just a natural part of my progression as a person to become a dominatrix. And now I get to wear the clothing whenever I want, [00:15:00] and, um and yeah, I love what I do. And I, you know, only find it more exciting when I do new things. And, um, yeah, it's only ever going to get better. And it is also something that, as a as a person in the sex industry, starting in my mid forties, is not something you would do if you wanted to be a full service sex worker. But being a dominatrix, it's worked perfectly for me because I can see myself being a dominatrix for probably another. I have another good 10 or 15 years. I mean, possibly if I have a Zimmer frame that [00:15:30] works very well. Um, so yeah, so it's just, like, say, a natural progression. Really? And I did get told by my spiritual woman a couple of years ago or a few years ago, before I actually started practising that, um, they being spirit, couldn't imagine a better person to be a dominatrix. And at the time I thought what I wasn't even intending to be one. Um, And she said men will come from all around the world and will pay large amounts of money just to see you. And it's in tiny, tiny ways. It's starting to happen. So I do think that it was me they were talking about, [00:16:00] Um and yeah, that makes it even more exciting, you know, on many levels, because it means like, oh, I'm doing the right thing. So yeah. So, um, your your business is called the MM Club. Yes. Yep. So that's what it would be under in the Internet in the Google the MM club dot com. Yeah, and so is is this. You know, there are a number of these clubs around New Zealand and Wellington or the MM Club, as we've set it up, is the only place of its kind in New Zealand. There are [00:16:30] other dominatrix practising, um, privately. There are a couple who are quite good at what they do, and there's many women who set themselves up as dominatrix who have absolutely no understanding what it is they're setting themselves up to do. So people are getting hurt and disillusioned. Um, not only them, but their clients. Um, so the MM Club is the only place physically of its kind with dungeons cross dresser room, um, offering the level and the amount of different [00:17:00] services that we offer. We have, um, a few people who who provide sessions we can provide most things. We always work within a very strict safety framework. So there are certain areas that we don't delve into because we do like scarification and blood sports and serious strangulation are areas that we don't really know enough about, to, um to be able to offer or to even want to offer. Really, because, you know, puts you on a very edgy sort [00:17:30] of thing. So people baulk a bit When you started getting into domina stuff and because there's, you know, there's a kind of there's lots of kind of, I guess, negative things about sex work. But I guess B DS M stuff and do stuff. We gonna bum it up another level. Were there what kind of responses were there? Most people, I think if you if if I said to someone like I used to tell people I was a madam, Um and so I was very honest about that and people would go, Wow, that's amazing. And ask questions [00:18:00] and things. And when I say I'm a dominatrix, people go, Wow, that's fascinating. Getting to beat men. You know, I bet that's a good way to take out your anger. So I don't have any anger. And it's really the worst thing you want is an angry woman with a cane in her hand. Um, but if I said I was a sex worker, if I said I was a prostitute, if I said I was a hooker, a whore, whatever you want to call it, I guarantee those attitudes would be like, oh, really very different, because as a madam [00:18:30] or as a dominatrix, it's It's kind of it's I guess it's almost the celebrities of the sex industry, whereas if you say you're a hooker. It's kind of like saying I clean toilets for a living. You know, I'm the lowest of the low in a lot of people's brains because And that's why why most sex workers don't tell people what they do because of those attitudes. And until more sex workers do start telling people, those attitudes won't change. So a little bit like coming out and lesbian and gay visibility almost exactly exactly. Because [00:19:00] you know you will find out who your friends are. If you come out, you know, as a lesbian, or if you come out as a sex worker or whatever, you will have people turn against you and you will have other people that you didn't even imagine will go good for you. So, yeah, I encourage anyone who hasn't got too much to lose or Children at school to come out about being sex workers because it's the only way the attitudes of people will change has has the law reform changed the attitudes? Um, it has slightly a lot [00:19:30] of people. The most common thing I heard when the reform went through was, Oh, thank God, At least now you have to pay tax. You know, the sex industries always paid tax. When I started as a madam 14 years ago, the IRD had printed forms with what you could claim what you could. You know how to do your tax as a sex worker. The inland revenue always want your tax. They don't give you a drug dealer, which, by the way, is still illegal. Um, they don't care. They want their cut of it. So, you know, that was like I said, that was the most common thing was people [00:20:00] were worried were just pissed off. Really. I guess that sex workers weren't paying tax. And quite possibly there's a lot of electricians out there that don't pay tax on everything they earn, you know? I mean, yeah, but the the attitudes, I think it it definitely has helped with attitudes, but it will take a long time for the stigma to drop. But the things that it has helped, of course, are the fact that now clients can be prosecuted for harassing sex workers to not use condoms, and they couldn't afford Yeah, and also as a madam [00:20:30] when I was interviewing sex workers or potential sex workers. If you had someone who came into your office in the brothel looking for a job as a sex worker. They were well educated. They were gorgeous. They were groomed et cetera. And they started asking you You'd give them your spiel about things without mentioning anything about actually having sex. And if they started asking things about condoms and sex, I always used to say, Are you a policewoman? Because if they were [00:21:00] allegedly, it could have been a myth, and I might have been setting myself up. But, um, if you asked them if they were a police woman and they said no and then that you, you know, went ahead as if they it was all OK, and then they arrested you. It was, um, entrapment allegedly. I don't know how true that was, but thankfully, I never had to find out. But, um because it it was always, uh you were always worried about talking about those things because it was illegal, you know, like we had. We used to supply condoms and and all, and lubricant and things in the in the brothels that I first worked [00:21:30] in. And then all of a sudden, the head of vice. The vice police was changing and he start. They started even before he got to Wellington, all the police that were working in vice started transferring out and new ones started transferring in to work with this guy. And, um, they were stopping our drivers. They were starting to do some, you know, sort of not harassment things, but it was verging on, like, you know what's going to happen. So we had to get rid of. I think we were the first brothel to start having boxes [00:22:00] of condoms and vending machines because we had to really get our thinking caps on to figure out how if the police came in and went into the rooms. You know, we we said the girls were in their massaging if they found that 75 year old man so handsome that they had to have sex with him, Well, that was their business, you know, It was a personal thing, and it covered us. Um, legally. But if there were condoms in the drawer Well, what were they for? If we were supplying them? So, you know, we had to look at different ways of of covering all that sort of thing up. So we supplied, you know, vending machines with chippies, chocolate bars and [00:22:30] condoms. Um, and, you know, that kind of covered us legally. But before the reform, those were the silly sorts of things that had to happen. It was still happening. You know, it. You're never going to stop it. It just makes it safer. You can talk to girls about safe sex or sex workers rather about safe sex. You can promote safe sex. Um, you just Yeah, it's just wonderful. It's just make It takes a whole layer of stress off for sex. People in the sex industry and for clients. You know, if you look at it and for wives of those [00:23:00] clients, because everything's so much safer, it's just silly to try and push it underground. So you always knew that you you're kind of somehow destined for this industry. Did you always You kind of identify as bendy. Have you always known you were a bit bendy? Um, I think I have. I did go through my stages when I was younger, thinking maybe I'm a lesbian. I did marry, um, a gay man, not because he was gay, but we actually married for other reasons, but we wouldn't have. I have always been a little bit sexually confused. Um, not [00:23:30] about my, um, tastes in people. I mean, it's people I'm attracted to, but so I guess I'm open in that. If I met someone who was a man and I'm attracted to that person, then that's fine. If it's a woman and I'm attracted to that person, I don't. You know, I don't have any judgement or fear of being attracted to a woman, so I'm definitely bisexual. I'm bendy. Um, yeah, I'm I just like people, really. And every and everybody's always been all right with that, or people think it's odd. [00:24:00] Or, um, again, I guess I'm very lucky, because all of my friends are extremely open minded. So, you know, I have had one or two naughty times with some female friends. Um, So who are they to judge? So I mean, I Yeah, no one that I know of has ever thought it was strange because most of my friends, I guess if they're not but bending themselves, then they're open, you know, open to the whole idea. There's a big stereotype [00:24:30] that, um kind of queers are really into or or or that kind of thing, are you? What do you reckon about that kind of crossover between? I think we have a lot more queer clients. Um, or I. I mean, I don't know, because I guess I don't really mingle in the queer World enough to to be able to to say, UNC categorically. But I I've I don't imagine [00:25:00] there would be a bigger, a larger amount in the queer community they would in a straight community. But like I said, that's you know, I know more about the straight community, I guess from a B DS M perspective than I do about the queer community. So don't quote me on that. Well, you have any any last kind of thoughts, or, um um I think I've terribly terribly remiss of me to have mentioned that we do cater for women. We [00:25:30] do cater for everybody. If someone wants to come along and experience something, then give us a ring. I'm very understanding and easy to talk to. And if we can't cater for you, you know we'll find someone who can. No one's ever going to be judged and I encourage people of all genders to come along. And if you are into B, DS M, that's what we're about. It's not about genders. It's about B DS M. We provide services and facilities for whoever wants to, you [00:26:00] know, take up the use of them in whatever way. Cool. Where can we find you? If you look on the Internet under WWW dot the MM club, that's THEMM club dot com So easily find a book? Yes. Thank you very much for your time and yarn with us. You're most welcome. It was nice.

IRN: 145
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089145
TITLE: Hinemoana Baker profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Hinemoana Baker
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 1970s; Hinemoana Baker; arts; bisexual; coming out; lesbian; music; poetry; profile; takatāpui; writing
DATE: 11 March 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Hinemoana talks about being a writer, musician and teacher.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: [00:00:30] Um, and in my spare time, I work with them. It doesn't sound like there will be much after that. So I'm a writer and a musician, and, um, on my dad's side, I'm Maori. I come from those, um, for and on my mom's side. Her people are from, uh, England and Germany or Bavaria, to be precise. And, [00:01:00] uh, I work as a writer and musician and and as a teacher and sometime producer. And in my spare time, I work for quit line, helping people give up smoking. Yeah, she have You always written and song? Well, since I was, I can remember. My first book was when I was eight, sitting on on the steps of our little state house in and a, uh and I was writing. [00:01:30] I can't remember exactly what, but it had lots of chapters, and there was a shipwreck in most of those chapters. So that's what I remember from that book. Fortunately, the manuscript hasn't survived. Probably probably sea damaged. Um, and then I remember, like writing poetry through my teens angsty angsty poetry in my teams, and, uh, then I yeah, at university, I showed it to a to a literature, [00:02:00] um, lecturer. And he was kind enough not to say it was dreadful. Um, he said something like, you could turn the volume down a little bit or something like that, You know, something kind, but useful. Um, And then I did a course at Vic at Victoria with Bill Man hire before it turned into the huge monolithically. Fabulous thing it is now. And then I did the Masters, which was monolithically fabulous. Um, and that was in 2002, [00:02:30] so Yeah, pretty much from when I was eight. I mean, I've said this before in other kind of places, but my accountant used to say that if you know, you should do for a living what you were doing for fun when you were eight. Wow. Yeah. Other people have said 77 years old. I've been making for for for, like, houses, houses. And so, Yeah, I hear there's a position going for that building New Zealand or something. That's right. [00:03:00] For maker. Yeah, I just saw it the other day, so I guess I was right. He was counting money, and I was writing a little book, so Yeah, it's all always worked out, except we just need to get you into that fort making position would be all sweet. And were you always encouraged to write, or was there a real kind of anti artist thing? Oh, they don't make money, and they they're always depressed. And they No, not really. There was. No, Um I think that basically, my parents were just pleased that I was [00:03:30] alive and yeah, and kind of saying and getting some good marks at school and and stuff. Um, they were proud of me for the English, you know, achievements I made in English and thought I was going to be a journalist. So I did journalism for a while, and then I kind of thought kind of realised that as a journalist, your your best day is everybody else's worst day, you know? And I just couldn't carry on. I couldn't carry on, too. I'm too sensitive. [00:04:00] So such a sensitive flower. So? So I left it alone. And really, they haven't. They haven't hassled. I mean, they do worry that I'm not in my own mansion and all of that, but I'm too old for them to really have any say now. Yeah, and around being have they always been supportive about that, or is it much choice? You know, I mean, I've just been quite bossy, I think, um I mean, my mom was sad [00:04:30] and thought that it meant that she wouldn't have any Children. Um, which is not necessarily true. As we know, my dad was like, Oh, right, OK, he was a bit shocked, I think. But not so as you've noticed. He just He's always really rolled with it, Dad A And they've both really embraced my partners, my various partners, male and female and varying orientations. Yeah. So, um, [00:05:00] I haven't got any complaints in that department, which is great. The rest of my family, most of them have been good. A couple have been really vile, but, um, we just don't see them anymore. And have you always known Oh, when when do you kind of remember? First? I remember first thinking, um, you know, I fell in love with my best friend. Didn't we All if we were really honest, I fell in love with my best friend when I was, um, you know, 14. And, um, [00:05:30] you know, I felt feelings with you that perhaps she didn't feel for me, but I didn't really have any words to describe it at that point. But, you know, when I did start describing it, you know, a couple of years later, I've always thought, Oh, you're bisexual. That's cool. That's me. I'm I'm fine with that. You know, I haven't really, ever had any lack of self acceptance around it. Uh, I don't know where I got those positive vibes from, because there's a lot of negative vibes out there I've found out later. Um, but there was nothing no kind of negative stuff when you were at school [00:06:00] or not that you picked up on that. I picked up when you were buried in a book. I was probably buried in a book. Um, yeah, possibly. I just I mean, I knew that it wasn't an ok thing to say that you were, you know, out loud as a teenager at school. But I didn't feel that myself. I felt quite comfortable with it myself. Yeah, and always have. Yeah. So I don't have any of those stereotypes of bisexuals being, you know, promiscuous or, um, you know, disingenuous [00:06:30] liars who are just gonna play with you and then and all of that stuff. I just missed out on all of that. I'm quite glad, really, Because it have you been confronted with other people's views on over and over again. So boring. Absolutely. It's just that thing that people think that it's more to do with the label bisexual than the actual person being an asshole, right? You know, people can be assholes from all sorts of persuasion. So, um, not denying that there are There are [00:07:00] bisexual people of, you know, I repute, but I really don't think there's a higher percentage of us, that whole thing about the difference between, um being monogamous and and non monogamous, who gets mixed up with being bisexual again. Not that there's anything wrong with either, but, uh, it's not the same. People say, you know, you're in a halfway house, you're not making a commitment. You're not political enough. You blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, you know, just me as one person I can I can. In the life I've led, I can refute every single one [00:07:30] of those claims, and I'm sure I'm not alone, so I think we should. That's a great dress. Can you just have a look at that dress? It's fantastic. It's this woman. It's a little pink dress and it's actually got a hoop. But it's only a ring in the hoop. Hoop can store things under it. That's right. Who knows what's going on under the hoop? So, yeah, I'll stop raving and renting a bit about that now. And did you grow up in Wellington or in I grew up all over [00:08:00] and Nelson mainly, and I've lived in Wellington and the environs of Wellington for the last 15 years. Terrifyingly, Yeah, since I got back from, um actually, since I got back from, I was in, uh, England and Europe and Zimbabwe for for a few years. When I got back from there, it was 92. So yeah, it's it's actually been about 18 years. Wow, [00:08:30] that's all right. Yeah. And have you always had a, um Well, assuming you identify as an adult, has it been difficult as an adult kind of maintaining that creative process to keep kind of not just producing, but keep creating? And I've had I've had the good fortune of having some massive boosts along the way. So, um I mean, getting into the course, Getting into the master's course at the Tuna modern metres [00:09:00] was a massive boost to my confidence. So that kept me going for a few years. And then my first poetry book was was co published by Victoria University Press, who are here in Wellington, but also Vigo Mortenson from Lord of the Rings, which is an insane It just doesn't It just doesn't sound like it would ever happen to a normal person, let alone a poet. Um, so I mean, that was just that was one of those incredibly strange but wonderful boosts to to my confidence and, um, [00:09:30] my star rating. You know, my celebrity status went up massively. You can Google Vigo's name and, like my name actually sometimes comes up along. You know, he's like Hollywood. Um, he's a lovely guy. Actually. He was awesome. He was incredibly busy, but took the time to actually do some editing and produce this amazing book that's got pictures and freaking CD in the back and a hard cover. I mean, it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. I was the most hated poet in New Zealand for some time [00:10:00] After that probably still am, Um and then I've had other boosts along the way. Oh, you know, like in my music. We got asked to play at last year. I mean, did you have a band or you just self titled as yourself? I'm self titled as a soloist. And then I have a duo with my partner, um, Christine White and our duo is called, and we do strange. We do folk pop type songs, but with strange ambient sonic art type instruments made out of kitchen utensils. So [00:10:30] that's quite fun. I don't know whether it was quite what were expecting kind of kitchen U, anything. Anything made of steel. Chris Chris, um, makes contact mics, tiny little mics, so she puts them under a steel plate on a black and decker workbench. And then we use a cello bow, and we put steel things on top of that steel plate, and we bow those steel things so it could be could be a cheese grater, or it could be a wine rack. Um, what else have we got? We've got those little oven racks, you know, that Go and grills O grills. [00:11:00] They all make different sounds and They all sound like different creatures. So that's where the farm. Yeah, came from. So you kind of are doing what you were doing when you were eight around? Yeah. You're right. Yeah. And what else you were saying? Um, has it been hard to maintain? Uh, the main thing that's been difficult to get around is, um, not actually. You know the financial side of it or or the, um, routine. [00:11:30] I don't really. It's the fact that I have depression. So, um, I've had several bouts of severe depression over my life, and that just makes me really dysfunctional, and it makes anything seem worthless and hopeless and stuff. So, um, I've had to be really disciplined about how to how I handle that. And I've got a really good worry. That was because you're an artist with all the artist. That's right. I think I don't know how that stereotypes got out there. Really? Because I'm sure you know it doesn't discriminate. Um, depression doesn't [00:12:00] discriminate. I mean, you know, John coins got all black. Um, but I did. I guess it took me a while to take it seriously myself. I don't know whether that's because of that or because it just seemed like, you know, people say everyone's got depression, but yes, that's true. A lot of people do have it, but not everyone you know wants to die every day. So once it got to that point, I was like, Well, once it got to that point again, I, [00:12:30] you know, went and got some help. And, um, I've got fantastic kind of wanting to die that made you go. Oh, this might be a bit serious. It was that, plus the fact that oh, as if it is not enough. Um, it was just that. I see. I've just got this ridiculous. I've got a kind of pathological independence that I'm like, I've got to fix it myself. I've got to do it myself. And it wasn't even so much a stigma about taking medication or anything like that. But I think I did [00:13:00] have that. But it was more to do with, you know, I think basically a distrust of Western medicine as well. And, um, a distrust of handing my health over to somebody else, which is quite in some ways, quite good. So what? What that's meant is, I've I've have asked for help. But I also continue to do all of these other strategies and techniques regularly, like ridiculously regular exercise and sleep and, you know, journaling and all sorts of other techniques that I just can't let [00:13:30] them drop, which is actually quite good. It means that, um, I'll live a long and fabulous life. And so, um what What? How would you describe your work for someone? Who who? Maybe on the other side of the world that doesn't know who you are or doesn't know To Google Vigo. Mortenson. I don't know if there's anyone in the world who doesn't know who I am. Hannah, Of course. Um, how about aliens? Aliens? Oh, yeah. So I guess my work, um, what I do creatively [00:14:00] would be I'm very interested in sound. So sometimes that takes the form of the sound of poetry or the sound of music The sound of music or, um, you know, um, found sounds. Yeah, like, um, field recordings, those kinds of things. Most recently I've produced. I was doing a residency in Australia and II. I wrote a whole lot of texts, but I also did field recordings [00:14:30] in all these Outback locations and put them together. So it's a kind of sonic poem. So that's That's the thing that I'm most interested in at the moment that said, I've just started a novel like an idiot Boy novels are real hard. They're so long. Oh, my God, they're so long And there's a lot to know about writing prose. So I'm kind of a beginner there, but I'm I'm working on it. I'm doing it cause that shift I've got one story I really want to tell based on my dad's childhood. So [00:15:00] it just doesn't seem to work telling it in any other way. I wish me luck with that. Good luck. That is. So you've, um you did a residency in Brisbane. Have you done residencies elsewhere? I did. Writing on your your fame with The Lord of the Rings. Yeah, I should be doing a middle earth residency. Um, I've done one short residency very early on it at the Stout Research Centre. It was a Reader's [00:15:30] Digest fellowship. I wrote most of my first album there, so that was awesome. Very grateful for that. Um, but apart from that no, that's my only residency residencies are um, a bit of a coup in a way because only one person can get them. So I've had other assistance. Like I've had, um, money from Creative New Zealand and stuff. It's probably better, in some ways, for me to apply for those funding things rather than residencies. Because, like my publisher said, once you know, only one person can get the residency, [00:16:00] but they can divide the money out amongst. So when I do apply, I often prefer to apply for funds. But that Brisbane thing was a bit of an exception. They invited me to apply because I did. I did a gig for them a couple of years beforehand, and they really liked me. So they invited me to apply, and I said, Hell, yes. And then I got it. So, yeah, that was three months of Australia, very different to New Zealand. And, um, I. I wrote crap loads over there, which was great [00:16:30] and produced that CD while I was over there, too, because I'm an overachiever, Um, and just kind of examining my my emotional reactions to being there as well, because I I had these massive crying jags. I don't know where they came from just huge. I mean, maybe I was homesick. I don't know, but they would just, you know, Come on. I was in the laundry or I was, you know, just got off stage or whatever. Um, so just exploring that, Like where that was coming from, Uh, [00:17:00] the landscape over there. So extraordinary. Oh, my God. The outback. Oh, God. It couldn't be more different to New Zealand. Vast and silent, You know, when you really get down to it And old, So old. So after I got over my anxiety attacks from being that far from the coast is, you know, the Sea maiden that I am, Um it was awesome. Actually. I felt profoundly calm. Hm. [00:17:30] Well, where did you, um, I guess drive or influences or to create stuff. Has it Have you always been like that? Don't know. Or have there been kind of certain events or people? Or I guess I feel an urge to, um, mouth off about things, whether they're political or personal. Kind of. I've always sought some kind of publishing, [00:18:00] so I guess that's what performing is in a way. It's publishing, publishing my take on things and So is the poetry. I do feel I do feel that urge, but it's definitely more towards. At the moment, it seems to be more towards the publishing rather than the performing, because performing, um, takes it out of me a lot. I don't have a character that I become, you know, that I can protect myself with. So it's just me up there on stage and particularly if I do [00:18:30] one after the other, I get really knackered, so veering towards the talking in the books rather than talking on the stage at the moment. So is it quite a solitary process? I mean, apart from your, um, band band with Is it quite solitary? And you just potter around in your own home room and your own shed? Or I mean lots of people. No, I don't. I try to I try to avoid people. Um, people are my biggest curse, you know, Um, [00:19:00] it is quite solitary. I'm I'm easily distracted, so I have to be quite staunch with that. In your report cards easily distracted the one thing they used to write in my Plunket book, which I've just been reading recently. It is so funny loves all food growing, well, pudding for dinner. But no on my on my report cards. No, I was always a bit of a nerd, not distracted too much. But as an adult, [00:19:30] obviously that's all gone downhill. Um, but it is fairly solitary, except I have a great writing group that I meet with regularly. We've been meeting for like, six years. It's quite rare for a writing group. How long do they usually last that long? Not that long. So that's been awesome. Great Touchstone to have. And I mean, the residency was awesome. I need to say, too, that it was Arts Queensland who gave me that residence. Got them. You didn't get eaten by a crocodile and it was so good. And, um, the [00:20:00] poetry festival also. And the Judith right centre was where I stayed. And the Judith right centre is this amazing centre of contemporary arts in Brisbane. And I mean, when I was there, I realised how vibrant the scene is there, and it is vibrant here as well, but in different ways. And it's really happening there, and everything just seems a little bit more prosperous. You know, I'm not I'm not being all down on New Zealand or anything, but it was good to see my eyes opened a little bit on that level. Um, and so, yeah, being over there, I felt less isolated, and it was a least solitary [00:20:30] process, you know? Did you notice that there was a kind of characteristic of, um, New Zealand writers or when you're over there, kind of compared to the other people? Well, I felt for myself that I was way more self conscious than, um than the artist, you know, like I was, too. So we have, like, tall poppy styles going on, or I think so. Something like that. I just People over there are like, Yeah, let's do it a bit more gung ho, Bit more confident, um, artistically, [00:21:00] really hard working. And, um, I brought that back with me, That feeling of like, Yeah, I'm just gonna do it. Whatever. You know, everyone's allowed to that book. Whatever gets you to the to the chair and sitting down and doing it, taking a few risks. Um, I. I felt really inspired on that level from Australia. So you're working on your novel now and and a whole lot of other things, Or do you constantly do everything at the same time? I was trying to work better on that nowadays. Um no, just the novel [00:21:30] and I haven't written the poem for a while, but I'm sure I'll write the odd one. there's a lot to learn with writing a novel. It's such a different animal, and I want to do it properly. I don't want to write this book, and it goes in the bottom drawer like most first novels. So as usual, I'm setting myself unrealistic targets, so I'll get back to you on that one. Do you ever feel, um, I guess, pigeon holed or other as a as a Maori writer or writer or anything Or, um, sometimes I wish that people [00:22:00] wouldn't ring and offer me jobs just just because I'm Maori, you know, I'm sure it's not just because of it, but I feel like when is someone just going to offer me a job that's got no Maori things involved with it whatsoever? And I probably wouldn't say yes to it, you know. But it would just be nice to to know that I I was appreciated, I guess, or valued as a as an artist or as a worker for what else? I have not just those, um, those skills and links. Um, but, you know, it's it's a fairly privileged [00:22:30] set of problems to have. Um, it's a tricky dynamic. It is a tricky dynamic. I'm not whinging because my life would be a lot worse. Um, I do. I do think sometimes I do feel like sometimes that if people are picking up and reading my book because they want to read a Maori writer that they're gonna be thinking What the Because I guess most of the Maori authors that I read write, you know very differently to me there. Um, maybe, perhaps they're more immersed in the culture on a daily basis. Um, maybe [00:23:00] grew up with it more than I did. Um, I feel a little bit other by myself on that level, you know, Um, but by the same token, I'm really proud of it. And I'm really in love with the language and in love with the culture, so it'll always be there. I'm sure for people to do with what they want and how How do you feel about the kind of the whole the whole New Zealand literature poetry scene? Or do you? Do you feel like there is one and you can see what it's doing? Or you just Potter away? [00:23:30] Oh, no, I'm I mean I. I don't go to a lot of things because once I'm back home in, it's hard to get me away from the beach. Um, but I do kind of know what's going on, and, um, it's really very vibrant here as well that the literature scene, the poetry scene in particular in Wellington, is just awesome. Do you think it's darker? You know, that whole, um you know, stereotype of New Zealand literature, literature and films being real dark. And [00:24:00] do you think that's true or kind of compared when you're in Brisbane? Happy sunny Brisbane, people on the beach. Um, not that I noticed. I mean, the the the subject matter and the content was wasn't markedly different. Yeah, um I mean, what I do notice over there. What I noticed over there is that there is a lot more opportunities for performance poetry. I think in Auckland we're a little bit more well served, uh, than we would [00:24:30] be down in well at the moment anyway, because that changes to, you know, events and nights come and go. There's been great events here, like, I don't know if you ever went to there. It was great, um, and other events, But at the moment, I think there's there's a bit of a dear, but, um, yeah, Auckland. There's things happening in general. I mean, it's a huge city, Brisbane and bigger the bigger city. So there's just a lot more going on, but I don't know that dark thing. I mean, I, I love it. So I don't know whether I'd even notice it, you know? So [00:25:00] you do enjoy the the the New Zealand literature and poetry scene. I'm listening. I'm I'm getting really into audio books at the moment. So I'm listening to owls Do Cry by Janet Frame. And, um, yeah, I've been reading a lot of Kate Camp's latest book of poetry has actually got owls all over the cover so time. Yeah, it's an owl period right now. Um, yeah, I do really love it. I'll always love it. I'll always feel proud of it and connected to it. [00:25:30] Um, I guess what I'd like to say to round things off would be, um yeah, that thing of, you know, other or, um, identity on that level. Uh, I'd really like us to allow our artists to be or our people actually to be what they are, uh, and acknowledge that that can change over time. Um, you know, for myself, I've I've, [00:26:00] you know, I've had male partners, and I've I've had a female partner now for, you know, 10 years or something or longer, 12 years. Um, but I do kind of lament that people, you know, even just the other day I was listening to a friend say that she'd finished her relationship with a woman and that she was about to date this guy and and that she wouldn't have to She wouldn't be able to go to the the gay swim team that she normally goes. And and And I laughed because I thought, No, that can't be true. But the [00:26:30] other, the other two people in the room are like, No, you won't. And, um Well, they weren't exactly, but they weren't jumping in to say Oh, no, don't be silly. You'll be most welcome. Um, I, I so recognise the the need and the importance of those boundaries. And those, um, you know, queer. Only women only gay, only lesbian only. Absolutely. It's been absolutely vital for my health and my mental well-being over the years. Full respect to that. And yet I'd really like us to be more imaginative with how that, um, [00:27:00] evolves in a kind of three dimensional way to match the fact that people are three dimensional. Yeah, or even more more dimensional. So that would be what I'd like to say. And, um, I guess that that means whoever you are, artist, you know, whatever, Chef for builder. However, yeah, that would be my my last word to the world and that that's a great note to end on. Thank you very much for sharing with us and for your time. Pleasure.

IRN: 156
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089146
TITLE: Peri Te Wao profile
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VOICES: Peri Te Wao
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 1980s; Peri Te Wao; coming out; transgender
DATE: 10 April 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Peri talks about growing up and transitioning from female to male.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So I'm here with today. Um, it's a lovely sunny day and we're at How's it going today? Petty. Yes, it's It's going really well today. We've just finished our our and our and now I think everybody's settling down to some serious work shopping. Right. So this is a HR C human right commission Transgender in relation to the transgender inquiry. That's correct. Yeah. Yeah, and there might be a chainsaw startup at some time, [00:00:30] but we're hoping it will leave off for a bit. So did you grow up? You live in Wellington? Did you grow up here? Petty? I didn't grow up here. I actually grew up in my hometown in, uh, in, Uh, I was born in, um my mom and dad are from te puke and down that way. And then when my mom died, when I was about three, I was out to an auntie and uncle in, so I grew up at, um, point in in pretty much till I left home. Yeah. [00:01:00] And what was leaving home like, it was really scary. I mean, um, kind of didn't know what to expect. Um, it was It was really a time that I either left home and and found myself, or I just, um, was, like, the rest of my and got stuck in a rut and just did what they all did and which was, you know, lived and died in the same place. But I needed to venture out. And so you've been involved with the kind of queer trends gay lesbian community for quite a while. [00:01:30] I have, um pretty much since I've I've been, um, on my own. When I left home, I, um I actually joined the military, and they were my family for a few years. And, um, after that I I actually found, or even even before leaving the military, I found that I actually belonged to the to the the the Wider, um, gay and trans community. And from there on, I've been there ever since. Yeah, How was that journey and did you kind of always know, Or was it a slow kind of knowing? [00:02:00] Or I always knew that I was who I am, and that is I'm a male. I always knew that from from a young age, but I guess I had to kind of like, um, be tolerant with everybody and waste my time and, um, don't know where I learned to be tolerant, but somehow it worked in really well. And then when I came, came through and and living out, out, Um, as as an adult, Um, yeah. Many experiences, actually. Good and bad are all part of my journey. [00:02:30] So I take it as as all my learning. Yeah. Mm. And were you lots of some, Some Trans guys. I know, Um, we kind of came out as lesbians and lived in community or lesbian community for a while and then, you know, and then continued on and transition. Was it like that for you or Yeah, it was It was actually because there was no I didn't really know. Well, yeah. What? I was really old. I knew [00:03:00] I was a guy, but I couldn't be a guy because I had a female body. So I was living as a female, but I knew who I was inside. And so I was attracted to females. Um, therefore, my community at that time would have been in in the in. The gay community will be with the women. Um, I never really call myself, you know, um, a gay woman. Um, because I didn't really think I was, but I had to affiliate to somebody, and it was really cool, because, um, I was embraced and, yeah, [00:03:30] I guess they saw me as a lesbian as a you know, whatever you might call call me in those days back in the seventies and eighties. And, um, the the unusual thing of that is that I loved sports, so I played a lot of sports in the community. But I was always on the altar. I wasn't actually really, um, inside the gay community, like, like, really inside. Like when you go to places and you're like, you know, the limelight or the party and you know, everybody. I kind of knew people, but I was always the shy [00:04:00] one, always on the alter watching in. And that's pretty much how I live my life on the Alta watching in and also accepting their their, um, opening up their community to me because I had no other place to go. I didn't have a family. Um, so I had to try and make my friends and family, and it happened to be, um, in, um, the gay community amongst the women. Yeah, so and I was embraced and they embraced me in a very respectful way. But, [00:04:30] uh, even to this day, who I am now, I will still support. And I still have a great respect for, um, our gay woman. I really do. So when you transitioned, I guess, Well, I guess you always knew you were, But when you kind of let everybody else know that, what were some of the responses? I guess particularly within kind of lesbian and gay. It was quite interesting because because like I said, I was on the I wasn't really a person that was the limelight of anything, really. [00:05:00] And and I I had a I was in a relationship with with a woman and we we were I live quite almost quite like a private life, Really? So it wasn't it didn't hit them really, really badly or or positively. It just really didn't really go there because as I transitioned my my movements transitioned, too. I decided to become a little bit more reclusive and a little bit more worried about what I needed to do for me. So I kind of like [00:05:30] had to also stop what I enjoyed doing in the community which was playing sport. I had to give up my sport sporting life to support what I was about to go through to change my body. So I kind of, like, moved a little bit away from them, but not too far that they didn't know I was still around. And I guess I, um I'm not the sort of person that, like I said, likes the limelight. So I was always somebody that was away in the background. And I guess the the communication that I received really was it's a respect for one, [00:06:00] and understanding one there were one or two that just couldn't work me out anyway from the start, So that didn't really bother me. I think I kind of like, had this bit of a shield up where I didn't find or didn't look for or didn't even hear negativity. I really just had enough energy to just go forward and concentrate on getting myself in the space where I needed to be. And to be honest, I didn't hear that much negativity at all. Yeah, So it was it an easy thing for you to decide to transition? Or were you just kind of waiting [00:06:30] until the time was right or I was kind of waiting for the time. So I said I didn't know a name for myself. I didn't know that we were called transsexual or transgender. And there's that chainsaw. Um and I didn't know When did you first hear that to him, or like you like, Oh, I must have been about 21 22 when I heard you know there's people called transsexuals and living in Wellington Um, and a mate of mine in the army. You know, her auntie was only evergreen [00:07:00] and she'd take me there every now and again. And it's like, I think this place is, You know, you get this feeling inside, it's like, yeah, like, and it's like, um, I can relate to this. And you get this this adrenaline rush and you start thinking, Hey, this is I think I'm finding what's their term again. And then and then and then I see some of the the the the street girls and the street queens and I'm thinking, Oh, yeah, I can relate to you. But not like you The opposite but I'm I'm feeling really a connection here, and and that was that was really [00:07:30] cool. But, um, it it was It was, I guess, um, for me. Um, when I started understanding that and started reading up about what the heck is it? Transsexual and what's a transgender? And then I thought, Shit, that's me. That's me. I and I found that out myself. I'm a bit slow. I mean, you know, it took me years to I was, what, 2022? I went. Oh, dear. The light went on, and I and I connected with myself by by saying, I think I'm one of these people [00:08:00] because I'm certainly not a female. I am a male, Uh, even though I've got a female's body, Um, and and I'm one of them, you know? And it was a hell of a revelation, is it? It was absolutely freaky. Um, you know, I'd be staring in the mirror and looking at myself, you know, and going, You know what the hell you know. Are you You know, just I spent a bit of time talking to myself, and, um, what I had to end up doing is [00:08:30] looking beyond the face and inside and going What's in your heart, man? What's in your What is your heart telling you in my heart screaming out You're a man. You know this You were born to be a man. Everything your your whole energy is about being a man And it's like, true, It was self acknowledgement. It was I did that all on my own stand in front of a mirror by myself, pieced it together And it was really, really freaky. It was really concerning. I was in a relationship. [00:09:00] I had to to kind of, like, communicate this sort of Hey, you know, um, you know this relationship we're in it's not quite what it's about, but at the time, my, my my partner at the time was all about her, um, her family, her life. She knew I had no family. She knew I was kind of like ousted from the family, so she took advantage of that. So for me, it was like, No, you're not the right person I need to share this with. So it was a time where lots of things happened, [00:09:30] not just finding myself, but I also had to find where I was in my relationship where I was in my my head space in my workspace. Um, everything. Really? So it was freaky? Yeah, very. Hm. And what did it feel like? I guess to Because you you totally are a man now, you know. And so how do you kind of feel now to when? Before, When you knew you were a man inside. But you knew that other [00:10:00] people thought that you weren't. Yeah, I wished. I excuse the expression. I wish I had balls. You know what I mean? To actually kind of wake up to the situation earlier and not waste those precious years by being, uh um not so much a nobody. But, um, being down on myself knowing that there was something not right but not knowing what it was being dumb about it and, um, being [00:10:30] brought up in in in my home to be seen and not heard. So I I was really pissed off at myself because I I wasted so much precious time. But then, on the other hand, I managed to, you know, convince myself that maybe the universe would say to you there's a time and place I may have been too young. People would have doubted me. I might have doubted myself. I'm at an age now. When? When I transitioned, I was at an age where, Yeah, I could take it on full bore and accept whatever happens, happens. [00:11:00] Maybe I was too young. I don't know, but I, I do feel I regret taking so long to get get, get myself sorted out. What age were you when you got it sorted? If you don't mind me asking, I was about 22 and I realised that hey, put one on one together and, uh, yeah, I'm a trans. Um, Then I had to work through my relationships. I actually had a couple of relationships, and at the same time, No, I had one had one and realised it was going nowhere, [00:11:30] um, and left that one. But I actually went straight into another one because, um, because I was so hot in my young days, I had women chasing all the time, so I had never seen that. And and so I had this another relationship, and it was like, um, you know, when you're young, you're just you're just going for it. Wanting to be loved. And so you go into this relationship and you waste another few years trying to sort their crap out just as much as your own crap [00:12:00] and waste all their time. So it wasn't till I was 29 when I decided stuff, This stuff, the relationships, they're not working. Um, get yourself, you know, on track. So I had to really, really make the make the effort for myself. So I promised myself when I turned 29 to actually go to my doctors, um, things things weren't working in my relationships and go to doctors and get it sorted out from there. And it started from stage one saying, I'm there's something wrong with me by being [00:12:30] honest with my GP and even say I'm not a woman. And it was just like the huge revelation, the huge just lifting of of so much, um, so much whatever you might call it, the weight just lifted. When I actually see that to a stranger, which is my GP was the first person you first stranger. I told um and and she just kind of like didn't even flinch, actually smiled eyes lit up and says [00:13:00] I know just a thing. And I think you are so kidding me. You know what I'm saying? I don't know if I said the right words. She says, I know exactly what you're saying. I will refer you to the hospital from there on. This is the result. Yeah, one GP by being upfront and honest and not being arrogant and not saying demanding them to fix whatever the problem. Because I didn't have a problem. I just didn't know what the hell was going on with myself. But I just needed somebody to guide me in the right place. Yeah, [00:13:30] so it was all on from there. It was game on from 29. Yeah, and just uphill from there. And, well, no more confusions. And it was like there was just no going back. It was like all I needed was somebody to just open the door. That that's pretty much what she did. She just opened the door, and I've done the rest. I've kind of, like, walked through the door and just kept going and going and going. And it was Yeah, it took me 29 [00:14:00] years for somebody to come and open the little door, but, um, sometimes it happens. So you're part of quite a few groups. Trans guys support groups or Yeah, I actually, um since I've been in Wellington, I've been doing lots of stuff for even the wider community. Um, for for the LGBTI community and even just mainstream. Really? Um, there's things out there that interest me and I just go in there and just help out. Um, my first lot [00:14:30] of voluntary work was with, um, the Sisters of Compassion, and I've been with them ever since. Really, I'm still there. They are. And, you know, from starting to walk in there and decided to pick up a tea towel and help in the soup kitchen and just been embraced by by the sisters there and and, you know, it was a 22 way thing, a two way love and a two way support that I was getting from there. They were like a family and then becoming a director on the board and becoming, you know, helping with the, [00:15:00] um, celebrations and just getting involved in there and at the same time doing things in the in the in the wider gay community, you know, the Dragon boats. Um, all the little things that go on the, uh, the council advisory committees. Um, yes, it's forming my own group, FM. And now, just, uh, a very, very new group of, um my wife and I have just launched was this, you know, just forever evolving and forever looking at things that first interest me and think, [00:15:30] Yeah, I can offer some help. I even do work for voluntary New Zealand. So, you know, whatever comes through? Yeah, a good variety of stuff. Yeah, a good variety. Yeah. And do you find yourself having to do a lot of education? Kind of 101101 with people you meet or are people kind of clued up these days or I? I do some I. I prefer to leave that to people who love to do that. So I still have a tendency to be a little bit. I am naturally [00:16:00] shy. It's in our family that we're naturally shy people who don't really like to, um to stand up and talk, and I've actually inherited that gene. So I do prefer to leave that to people who are good at that. And there's quite a There's so much talent actually in our community to do that work. But I will put my hand up and do it once in a while. You know, behind the scenes, I'm a I am a behind the scenes person. I've just finished doing a course, Um, a diploma of management advanced. And one section there, we actually [00:16:30] had to find our our strengths and our skills and what came out. I was the only one in the entire class that had the, um the skill where I was. I led from the back. Yeah, and I didn't like the front and the limelight. And so I'm actually true to who I am as a person. Yeah. So what are your thoughts on? I guess I don't know if it's even a good term, but the the wider kind of trans guy community now, is it? Is it more common? [00:17:00] Is it is it easier getting easier for people to to be who they are? Or? Well, I hope it is. Um, I hope that it's wide enough and and and and diverse enough for anybody out there to feel that they can walk through the door and feel comfortable to actually come forward because I know it's takes a lot of energy. Just to walk through that door takes a lot of energy to even acknowledge that you need to consider that. So they the the [00:17:30] our people need to to feel that they will be respected when they walk through those doors and and the wider the better. I say I mean, I get educated every day, you know a new term will come through and it's like, Oh, I haven't heard that before. Wicked. What does that mean? And when it's explained, I'll go. OK, fair enough, and I've been educated ever since Day one, when I knew who I was to not think it's just my my type that there's so many different, Um uh, terminologies [00:18:00] and so many different characteristics that individuals own. And just as much as you know, people might say, like me. Oh, that's different. Well, they might think I'm different, so it's again a two way thing. So it's about respecting that and hoping that the door is wide enough and if it's not, make it wider choice. So we've got the out games coming out. I know that, Um because you and me were at the when I can't remember what year 2008 [00:18:30] and in Melbourne and you played tennis. What are you planning on playing? Is it next year next year? Um, yeah, and I love that. That was, like, the first time ever I've done something like that. Yeah, I've never done anything like that. And I remember he used to play. That was just playing sports at this level, just playing sports, you know, and just playing sports for a team, but not going out on my own and taking off overseas and taking [00:19:00] part in a in A. And I only did that because the spokesperson from the games came over and visited our group and spoke out there, and I wasn't I didn't think anything of it. I was never going. And when he spoke, I just turned around to my wife and said, Can I go? And she says, Of course she can go. OK, what am I gonna do? She says, Well, go play tennis. Oh, OK, then I hadn't played for like 20 years. Um, when I was, you know, in the army and stuff. So um Because I I had stopped playing sports because of all the surgeries I'd taken, I'd done and in order [00:19:30] to just, um, help my body heal and just take care of myself. I just didn't play any sports as such, So I thought, OK, and she went and bought me a racket, so I Yeah, I decided, Yeah, I'm gonna go to this to this games thing over in Australia. And it was quite funny because I think I was the fattest contestant there. There was about 245 contestants of three grades because I didn't even belong to a club and I was never trained. They put me in the C grade and I didn't have a partner, so they had to put my name in a hat and mix me with [00:20:00] other strangers. So I thought, Oh, this is This is a bit of a hard case, so I'll go along with it and I came home with two medals. I came home with a bronze medal for the for the singles and a silver medal for the doubles. So I thought, Oh, I got a fat head on that. That's why I want to play tennis again. This, you know, going to play again and tell us about, um we had a bit of a what was it a performance or a bit of an ex? [00:20:30] And not only did I go to play tennis, we did the main stage opening night with, like, six of us. And, like, literally thousands of pairs of eyes watching us at this grand opening of the first ever, Um, Asia Pacific Out games. And we had to take our tops off. So not only the ladies didn't. Well, not only was IK Oh, yeah, the ladies didn't. Of course it was the boys in the hacker. Not only was I curing myself, I thought they could have warned me. I could have lost a bit [00:21:00] of weight. So here I am. Full screen, No top fat ass trying to do the hacker. Oh, my gosh. I'll never forget that in the hurry. Yeah, that was pretty funny. Yeah. Yeah. He thinks he's petty for sharing with us. And good luck for the tennis next year. Thanks.

IRN: 159
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/ryan_kennedy_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003853
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089147
TITLE: Ryan Kennedy profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ryan Kennedy
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 1990s; Ryan Kennedy; Wellington; coming out; gender identity; profile; sexuality; transgender
DATE: 13 April 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Ryan talks about growing up and transitioning from female to male. This podcast was funded by a generous donation from Roger Smith.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Brian Kennedy. You've just written a book. Just written a book. Just had a book published. In fact, um, it's called F two M the boy within, and I co-wrote it with Australian author Hazel Edwards. And so I was in Wellington, New Zealand, and she was in Melbourne, Australia, and we sent, um manuscripts back and forth for most of the year, I think and ended up with a young adult fiction book [00:00:30] published by Ford Street Publishing. So yeah, and how did you know her? Have you always written stuff with her? Or, um, she's a family friend of ours, So I've known her since I was 11. Um and yeah, she knew me as a female for most of my life. And I caught up with her when I was in Melbourne in 2008, and we met up, and, um, she'd been working on a book about gender identity for younger kids and was, you know, [00:01:00] just generally interested in my transition and thought I was looking pretty happy, which I was. And, um, yeah, I thought this would be a good a good project for us, and so I I'd kept a journal um, online while I was transitioning. Um, from when I when I just From about a year before I decided to transition. Actually. So, um, I went back and had a look at what I'd written then and I I sent over a version of that, um to her and and she thought it would be a good, good sort of basis [00:01:30] for a story. And it's a book aimed at young people. Um, yeah, Hope. Hopefully, some young people will eventually end up reading it. We've just had reviewers and people we know read it so far. So it would be really good to get some actual feedback from some kids. Um, so I guess it's aimed at, um, around sort of 12 13 onwards. The character, the main character, is 18 and has recently left school and has decided [00:02:00] to transition from female to male as I did. And so is the book completely autobiographical? It's It's actually not particularly autobiography a bit because he superpowers mhm. You have to read it and find it. Um, well, I transitioned at 27 and so, and it's a little bit of a fantasy for me. Actually, it's if if I had had a book like this. If I had had [00:02:30] the information available to me at that age, then I would have, you know, definitely transitioned a lot younger. It wasn't It wasn't until I was 27 that I actually clicked. That it was it was possible. And that was probably a year after hearing about other people who'd done the same thing. And it took that long to sink in. Um, but I drew on sort of my experience in the punk scene. It set in the punk scene. And I drew on my, uh, sort of experience with, um, the medical sequence. Really, with all the doctor's [00:03:00] appointments and, uh, psychiatrists assessments and all those sorts of things and so that that was pretty much based on my experience. We changed it around a little bit, and I had to do some research because found out that sort of one of my experience of the sequence here wasn't really particularly normal. Um, or standard. And so just for the sort of flow of the story and the continuity of the plot and things, it was easy to change it, but yeah, a little bit. So you transitioned when you were 27. [00:03:30] What? What was happening before you were 27 or 26? If you had heard about it a year year before you transitioned, I was pretty pretty unhappy and pretty frustrated. Actually, it seemed like I had tried everything to make my life work, and I still had not hit on the winning formula. You know, I, I tried, sort of, uh um straight from uni, looking for work and not really finding anything that [00:04:00] was particularly satisfying. I tried sort of dropping out and being a being a punk activist musician, and, um and then I tried, um, just working menial jobs. I tried working in professional jobs, um, when I could get them, and it just seemed that nothing really worked. And even when I had a really great bunch of friends and thought that I could sort of get my life going in a good direction, I went back to uni again, and and it just seemed that my life was just continually imploding, [00:04:30] like every every step I took didn't seem to be getting me forward. And then and then I discovered you know, these guys online, who I was reading their journals. It was on the live journal site and it and that's when it clicked because it was like reading about me. And I thought, Wow, they're just like me. I could really do this. I could actually do this. And that was, um that was pretty momentous, but yeah, it's just just trying not understanding why nothing was working. [00:05:00] And for so many years, it seems like years all through my twenties, you know, up until I was 27 just trying everything and yeah, and it just didn't quite fit kind of thing. Yeah, it would. It would sort of work for a little while, I think. Yeah, this is a pretty good job, but yeah, I'm going to make a new start at uni or going to end this relationship that's not very good for me and be single, and then I'll be like, Oh, this person is going to solve my problems and everything was going to, you know, move [00:05:30] flats. That that will fix everything. It wasn't, but yeah, it was It was just going around in circles. Really. And what was the the punk music activist scene like? Um, that was really good, actually, because there isn't a lot in terms of gender roles. No, this was here. Yeah. Um, yeah. There's not. A lot of the gender roles are there in the punk scene. Um, but they're not particularly strict. I mean, basically, you can do whatever you like and no one minds, you know? And so I found that really liberating. [00:06:00] Um, not really. Not really knowing why at the time, I just thought the whole the whole scene itself was pretty liberating, but yeah, once I transitioned, I thought, Yeah, that's why that was That was such a good fit for me at that time. Hm. And what about when you were we? Did you have an inkling or did it not really come up then? Or I was always a tomboy. Um, it was It was good when I when I was really little. Because, you know, everyone just plays together and yeah, up to a certain point. Um, yeah, the boys and [00:06:30] girls, just It's not really a distinction. It was about. It was about seven or eight. I think about seven or eight years old, there starts to be. The boys start to push away and want to do their own thing. And, you know, the girls get into little groups and the groups that pain of my life girls and their bloody groups. So what did you do when the girls were in their wee groups and the boys were you, like, try and break into a group as best you can or, you know, you end up in the in the [00:07:00] group of everybody else who doesn't have a group, usually my group. Actually, it's just Yeah, um, I guess trying to get in on the boys sports, but they were pretty protective of that. And was this this was in Australia or here? That was in Australia. I moved here when I was 22. So after I had finished with uni Not exactly finished uni Yeah, yeah, yeah. So most of I guess my adult [00:07:30] life has been here, So when you transitioned when you were 27 was it really easy? I guess after you'd you'd heard about it A year before. You're like, right, that's it. And it just it just rolled. Or I guess it was really difficult in some ways, because you're you're kind of on one side of this kind of chasm, and you're not sure how to get across to the other side. And you know that other people [00:08:00] have got across to the other side. So there must be a way, Um, and just following up leads like you go to this doctor and, you know, and and all the personal stuff around friends like having to continually remind people for years sometimes that you have a new name and that you have a new pronoun and you want to be called he and and that's all the time, Not just some of the time and a that that stuff can get can really wear [00:08:30] you down, actually, and it just even. I mean, my friends are pretty supportive, but even even still that it's those little things that just just really get to you after a while. You're like, Oh, I just want it to be over. And it just seems to take so long and and also if you're having any particular struggle for, um, hormones or treatment in any way because I was on Prozac at the time and and the endocrinologist decided that I wouldn't be able [00:09:00] to have shots because I may have some sort of episode. And even though I had absolutely no history of any sorts of episodes whatsoever that that he would know about, um and well at all, in fact, I mean, he had a very short history of me. Um, then that was just really frustrating because it wasn't It wasn't the right treatment for me. And nothing I said would would change his mind. Um and so, yeah, those. I can just remember those times as being really frustrating And the binding the chest binding gave [00:09:30] me a lot of back pain and, well, chest pain as well. I mean, you get it's hard to breathe and and that sort of thing. But I also one of the first things I did when I decided to transition was to quit smoking, because it was pretty much one of the very few things I actually had control over at that point. And and I also decided to lose some weight because that was the only other thing I could control. I couldn't get on hormones. I couldn't make people accept me as male yet because I didn't look [00:10:00] and sound male. Um, and I just I just had to hold on to these things that I actually could do. And and in retrospect, it was a lot easier to transition than it was to quit smoking. It really was, um, because quitting smoking is is like a daily struggle for a long time, and and it doesn't really get any easier for months and sometimes years. Sometimes I still crave a cigarette, even though it's pretty easy to say no now it's been six years or something, [00:10:30] Um, but I mean, once you're actually on hormones and and you're starting to pass as male and people are not even people who've known you for years are getting your brain right and everything starts to sort of snowball and happen. Then it takes care of itself. Really? Yeah, just the comparison is it's funny to think about now. You'd think you'd think about changing gender and quitting smoking, but quitting smoking is much harder. Was it a long transition, like for [00:11:00] you to feel to get over that chasm or through the chasm? Was it a how many of your time is relative and everything, but we're talking three months or five years or two weeks, or I guess it was about two years before I felt like I was passing all the time. And and for me, it was. How long was it? It was another year and a half after that. It was about 3. 5 to 4 years before I got chest surgery. So that was the next point. [00:11:30] There was a kind of a point I realised. Yeah, II. I had a lot of fatigue. So, um, when I went on hormones and so I was actually on the sickness benefit for a while and then, yeah, I realised that I I was starting to perk up a bit and that I was passing as male enough to kind of into the workforce as male. But I was still I was still bound for a couple of years after that. And that was that was kind of like, Yeah, I'm I'm living as male. Everything's happening. I walked into a job, of course, which I'd never done [00:12:00] being female, Not in it anyway. Um, but yeah, it was the next hurdle was just surgery, and it just took a while for that to happen. And, yeah, once Once that happened, then I guess I felt like that was when I had sort of had finished the process. Um, I didn't I didn't think that there was anything to come after that, not in terms of sort of body modification or mentally. Or I mean, there's still little things all the time. I sort of sometimes [00:12:30] when I'm just hanging out with, um, a group of men and I think how different it used to be and how how the whole situation would be completely different with with me feeling at ease. But they're kind of weary and it's just a different dynamic. And now I can sort of be in those situations and and if I remember, I kind of stopped to think this is something I really appreciate because it just It's just so normal for me. And it's something that I kind of work so hard to get, even though it's something [00:13:00] that's so normal for me. So, yeah, I don't I don't really hm I. I don't underestimate those sorts of situations is how significant they are. Yeah, trying to appreciate things when you started. Did you start tea before? As as part of your transitioning and we were there. Big emotional changes. Oh, jeez, it was just a myth. Emotional changes. [00:13:30] Um, I had a lot less. Yeah, I felt I just felt so normal. I felt like I could really think properly properly. For the first time in my life, I like a kind of fog lifting or or like, having a coffee in the morning. It's more. It's more having a coffee, I think. Well, I, I I could concentrate on things I could. I could read books a lot faster. I could learn things [00:14:00] a lot faster. I completely lost the ability to multitask. And I have had to learn a whole new way of multitasking where I do one thing at a time, and then I do a different thing. And then I do a different I can't do several things at once, and and I used to be able to do that. Really? Um, but that Yeah, that's something. It's one of those funny things that people say. Moon can't multitask. I really they was the testosterone. I lost ability. Um, but yeah, everything else is just just really fallen into place [00:14:30] as far as how I think and I think if I had, if I if I had transitioned at the at the same age that my main character transitioned, then I would have done a lot better at university than I than I did and I might have. I might have chosen something a bit more than I was suited to. So why did Holy culture? So you're saying that, um, most of your friends were pretty supportive? Were there any questions? Oh, they all had 100 questions. It's It's so [00:15:00] it's interesting how many different questions there are. And when you think you've heard them all, someone will come out with something else and what have been some really, really odd ones? Oh God, it's hard to remember now. Some odd questions I got what are some would be some really standard questions as well, with people's confusions or not getting it Or, um um, well, a lot of it. It usually starts with W. When [00:15:30] did you know? And that sort of thing It's like people want to know the history of it because they're trying to understand it, I think, and, um, just I think people wanted to know in advance how I would change. And and some people thought I might become everything that men that they don't respect alike. And so I would suddenly become all the all the bad types of male Just because I want to become male. Like why? Why do you want to become [00:16:00] that? You know, when a lot of times did you kind of think, what kind of man am I going to be? Or you were like, No, no, just because I'm a man in my head. I was already Yeah, I just I was already male, but nothing was working out, so yeah, I guess it It all happened externally. Like the change happened externally, The the hormones made me look and sound and and think differently. But, you know, I was still [00:16:30] I was still the same. So Yeah, it was It was funny to watch people sort of grief a little bit at that. My female, this female person they knew kind of disappeared, um, and then realised that it was still me all along, that nothing had changed. Really? And it was just You just couldn't multitask anymore. Yeah, exactly. All those jobs off to you? Yeah. Don't talk to him while he's putting the dishes away. [00:17:00] How did you identify sexual orientation wise before you transitioned, Or did you even identify sexual orientation I identified as a lesbian? For What was it the eight years? I think since I was 19, Um, because that was the closest I could get. Really, Butch female, like swim must be dark, you know? And I guess that's pretty common for trans guys. Um and [00:17:30] yeah, that that was just I never really fit that well, that that was the closest I could get. And I was still I was happy with that. And that was one of the things that just after I'd started hormones, I was kind of in a, um, like, a lesbian discussion group. Or it could have been just an all female discussion group, and I was sitting there thinking, Oh, well, I shouldn't really be here. And I won't be here for much longer. And then I thought, is I wondered if this would be something that I would really miss. Um, it wasn't, but [00:18:00] yeah, I wondered if it would be. And so and so when I meet the kind of women that I was hanging out with then and and And they sort of think, Oh, you're just some guy. And I'm like, I used to be one of you. You used to accept me, but I don't really care. And did they struggle with that at all, or they just like, Oh, yeah, um, I was that some of the grief stuff was that you talked about? Um I don't really know, actually, because I kind of dropped out of that sort of social scene as well. [00:18:30] When I transitioned, I sort of, um yeah, was it just natural to drop out because, you know, you're a man and it's a woman's face or whatever Or did you feel a bit forced out or unwelcome or I just need There was a whole big drama and I needed to change. And so, yeah, I just thought I'd go back to my original friends and, um, yeah, he didn't have anything in particular to do with any sort of scene other than hanging out with each other. And that's when I got my rabbit. [00:19:00] Yeah, and has your seizure or changed or shifted in any way since transitioning on hormones. Actually, was it was it really unexpected. You were like, Whoa, what's going on? And you're like, Oh, yeah, this makes sense completely unexpected. I was like, Whoa, what's going on here? And because I because I started, I guess I started out considering myself to be straight to her boyfriend when I was 18 and thought I was gonna go [00:19:30] that way for a while, But yeah, Then I got pretty heavily into girls and, um, yeah, so to have that reawakened, I guess it was a bit weird and that's kind of settled down a lot. Now, though, I think that was mainly hormones. So kind of everyone is everyone and anyone look good kind of thing. Yeah, I can do. I can do the faggy thing. It can be very camp. Sometimes My wife gives me shit about it. She can be very dokey sometimes. So, you know, [00:20:00] you cover all the spectrums of the GB IXYZ ABC with the glit fab. That's my favourite one was fab. What is it? There's been intersex, trans gender, something else that starts with T asexuals. I like there's a T in there that I'm not sure I think it's got two T and I don't know what the other T is. It could [00:20:30] be transgender and transsexual or transgender, and it'll be That's it. I like it. It's much better than GL BT I, I think. Yeah. Thank you for having yam with us. Give us the name of your book and publisher, et cetera, et cetera. So people can track that down online if they wish. Yes, my book, F two. M The Boy Within Co-authored with Hazel Edwards and it's published by Ford [00:21:00] Street Publishing. So if you Google any of those things, you'll find a link. Awesome. Thank you very much. Thank you.

IRN: 158
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/ronald_trifero_nelson_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003854
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089148
TITLE: Ronald Trifero Nelson profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ronald Trifero Nelson
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bats Theatre; Bud; Chris Brickell; Corner 4am and Cuba (play); Jeff Whittington; Mates and Lovers (play); Ronald Trifero Nelson; United States of America; Wellington; arts; gay; profile; relationships; sexuality; theatre; writing
DATE: 23 April 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Ronald talks about growing up and a number of plays that he has written and directed.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm Ronald Thomas Truro Nelson. Born in the mid fifties in Mid America to a middle class family, seventh or eight generation. Worked mostly in politics in Washington. DC prior to coming to New Zealand eight or nine years ago. Um, I came here with my, uh, then, uh, partner of eight years. We were unable to [00:00:30] get a, uh he was unable to get a green card, a visa, permanent residency in the United States. In spite of the fact that he was on a diplomatic visa and worked for an NGO and had a master's and money and all these sort of things. They just denied him and he got really depressed. I got very angry and I says, Well, let's see what else? Where else we could go. At the time, there were four or five countries New Zealand and Australia being one of them. We immediately I didn't want to go to Europe. Uh, we didn't [00:01:00] want to go to Canada only because it was, you know, across the street. And, uh so it was a choice between Australia and New Zealand until one faithful night. We went and saw the film rabbit proof fence. So That's sort of that sort of made our minds up, that it would probably be New Zealand if we liked the place. And, uh, my father had spent time here during the Second World War and even had ideas of moving the family here in the sixties. Uh, but my [00:01:30] mother wouldn't hear hear any of that. So we came and checked it out and, uh, went home and forgot about it until one autumn afternoon in September. As we smelled the Pentagon burning from our front porch in Washington DC and actually I had driven up from working down south and, uh drove home at 100 miles an hour and we met. And, uh, we said it Wouldn't it be great to be in New Zealand [00:02:00] right now And that sort of that sort of set things going, and it took a long time to quit jobs and and to sell houses and pack things up. And we arrived here. I think it was on the Fourth of July that I arrived and Luis came six months later when you came to New Zealand, Did you have any idea of what you wanted to do or we chose Wellington because it was the capital. And I was a political organiser and, uh, had worked with the liberal candidates [00:02:30] in the US and and trade unions and and, uh, free speech stuff. Women's rights, gay rights, of course. Uh, so I always thought that that that I would be doing that here, Um, I eventually found out it took a long time to figure this out, but I eventually found out that you sort of almost have to be born and bred in a, uh, specific party to, uh uh, actually do any work in it. So I even though I was told quite [00:03:00] to the contrary, I, uh it took me a while to realise that, uh, I was never going to get very far within a specific party here, and, um, and at the time, oddly enough, uh uh, the bad guys, the the national got a, uh, got in trouble. It was a bit of a scandal when it was revealed that they had hired an American consultant. So at that point, I realised Well, wow. You know, uh, even if they could, they wouldn't. [00:03:30] So, I I was sort of left high and dry and I would take these six month contracts back in the US doing union stuff and come back which paid very well and, um did that for a while, but that was becoming tiresome. And then I answered an ad off the big idea. Someone looking for a director. I had always done theatre, but it had been a long, long time. And, uh so I answered the ad and they came to Cuba Street and we drank coffee and they [00:04:00] hired me as a director, amazingly enough. And, uh, it was for a small show that was to be written called Onion for Fringe. And it did very well and, uh, in the festival and got a great review, and we ended up rebuilding it and touring it on the South Island for six weeks. I'll never forget the Timaru Herald. The review called it a must see for kiwi AFOs, which is really funny because I had written, you know, half or a third of the show and I've been on the country for about [00:04:30] 20 minutes, and it was just really it was great. It was my favourite review. So, uh, it was about a family, uh, losing their onion farm to developers in Canterbury. Great. Great fun, lots of fun. And, uh, uh, had a great time with that show. So, um, so here I was all of a sudden doing doing theatre again. It was really kind of odd. And, um, did some other things. And, you know, I performed in Auckland in a show [00:05:00] and performed here, and, uh, I I had always been shocked when I arrived in Wellington at how How people were really willing to, uh, talk about and be disgusted by Matthew Shepherd. Uh, from, um, Laramie, Wyoming, who was killed, of course, in 1998. And, uh uh, you know, Matt was 23 and very cute, and there were lots of photographs of him and just became an international [00:05:30] figure. Uh, for you know, the cause of gay bashing and, uh, and hate crimes. I was here, and, uh uh, I was amazed at this. This this sign that that that was advertising coffee called fags, coffee and, uh, their little marketing campaign that that year was this television actor with a cup of coffee to his lips and saying not as as 1 may think so. It's obvious [00:06:00] the reference with, you know, being a gay neighbourhood, and and they were making a pun on faggot or fag. Uh, I thought this was a atrocious. I just thought that fag is a is a despicable word. And, uh um, So when the Dominion Post called, what was then known gap as Gap and I was on the board, they called me, Uh, I, uh I felt II. I told them my definition of fag and where it came from in terms of [00:06:30] burning people at the stake. And it's certainly not a harmless word. Somebody else in the organisation said that, uh, you know that people were trying to take ownership over that word like queer. I felt like they confused it with queer, but anyway, it led to it led to a bit of a row. Oddly enough, in that research and looking, I wanted to make sure how fag and faggot was used in New Zealand and doing a lot of Googling. I came upon the case of Jeffrey Whittington being murdered in 1999 [00:07:00] and, uh, when he lay dying, they they kicked him to death. But the the the murderers, uh, told people 20 minutes later that they they kicked the faggot until he was bleeding out of places they never heard of before. So they they used that word faggot in a pretty despicable way. And, uh, what happened was I became really interested in Jeff Whittington and, uh, again reflecting that everybody was, and I'd [00:07:30] ask people around. What did you think? Uh, you know, when this murder happened and people say I was just a street kid, he was just this He was just that just amazed me that this kid in the third month of his 14th year murdered a five minute walk from my house. Uh, people didn't sort because most likely, he was gay. People didn't really give a rat's ass in as much as they were willing to, you know, jump on the bandwagon and and be discussed over Matthew Shepherd in the United States. [00:08:00] So I decided to do a play, went in doubt, do a play, and, uh, ended up being called the corner forum in in, and, um, was, um devised and co wrote with a group of other people and we opened, um, about four years ago, I think was this the first play that that you'd written? No, not at all. Uh, I devised [00:08:30] Cori Co co devised, um, 4 a. m. in Cuba. No, I guess I'd written some before. Uh, I have to think about that little things. Yeah, uh, nothing that big. Nothing. Not a full length play, Not 90 minutes. Uh, but yeah, it's important that the other people had a lot to do with with this, uh, this this script. It came from newspaper clippings and and and interviews. And, um, we got a lot of [00:09:00] publicity just given that and had amazing houses, like 96%. Just astonishing houses. Uh uh, uh, The the family of the murderers showed up, uh, which posed a lot of security problems. And we had to pay lots of money to to protect our actors. Uh, just, you know, people screaming in the audience in a lot of ways. It's it. It it was the best. You know, it's what theatre should be. And it was that controversial. Maybe. Could you just talk a wee bit more about how you, um, got the [00:09:30] information for the play and what were some of the challenges in terms of either you know, finding actors or dealing with families or dealing with such raw emotions because it happened quite recently in a in a quite a small town, right? Well, from the very beginning, we knew that we would not portray Jeff on stage. We also would never say he was gay or not because we didn't know. Also, we never used his last name. The information [00:10:00] came from media, and, um, and the transcripts from the first draw, Um, some interviews, um, at the last moment, um, Prue Kelly at Wellington High School was able to give me the speeches that she gave to the to the students on that day. Phenomenal. Amazing speeches. [00:10:30] Um, that were so correct that were so right at the time. Uh, she was she was wonderful and and some original music. And, uh, I hired the musician, played right below my balcony on Cuba Street, and, uh, a guy named Stu. He was a busker. And I knew that I wanted to sort of put it on Cuba Street because this was the last place that Jeff walked from the bar down on the corner. He went up here and took a right, [00:11:00] so Cuba was a was an important thing in in his life. So I hired a Cuba street busker and first and foremost. And then I put an ad in big idea and and got probably 10 people interested in performing. It was about Jeff that that brought them to the show. Did you have any, um, contact or connection with Jeff's family? Yeah, I had to, um [00:11:30] I had to get some sort of approval. The then artistic director of bats insisted upon that even though I didn't. Legally, I didn't need it legally. So, um, it was a fascinating research project that brought me to a phone call with Jeff's dad, who was serving as a volunteer [00:12:00] through that agency we have in New Zealand, Whatever that's called. He he Jeff's dad was an accountant, and I tracing Don, and he was serving in a tiny Himalayan state, and I forget the name of it Not to be not to Paul, but but, um uh and you know God, what do you do? You You ring up and you say hello. My name is Ronald. I'm phoning from Wellington. Oh, hello. Um, I'm a playwright. I'm a theatre maker. and I'm very interested in doing a play [00:12:30] about Jeff, and you can just you can just hear this guys heart stop. We each took deep breaths. Of course, it's long distance telephone to, you know, a Third World. And he said, OK, eventually or in another phone call, he said, OK, and then I made contact with Jeff's sister, who came to Wellington, and we I interviewed her in this very room for for [00:13:00] hours, and those tapes still exist. And, um because the family, the mother divorced the father like any situation. Uh, there were various opinions about the show. Her mother goes on like Jeff's mother. Rather goes on Wikipedia and rewrites things all the time and and things like that, and she's certainly able to do that. She she she thinks that we inferred that Jeff [00:13:30] was gay and, uh um, she doesn't want to accept that. That's OK. So there are, You know, there's every once in a while I'll get an email, somebody saying that I made money off of Jeff's death and and things like that. It's not very pleasant, but, um, his sister eventually came and saw the show show. So did Jeff's dad sat in the back and applauded loudly. At the end of the show, we portrayed the murder three different ways. [00:14:00] Um, in that we wanted because no one knows what happens. Uh, except these guys did it was it, You know, they were They were aligned to some some white supremacy groups. They were, um, uh, drunk or high. Was there a sexual component to to the murder? So it we portrayed the murder in three different ways and gave the the kind of the audience a choice. [00:14:30] So it's a pretty good show in terms of the style and the ideas and what we're trying to portray, I think I think it stands up. I haven't watched it on video tape in a while, but I would think that it would stand up. Um, it it was a very difficult show to do. I wasn't in retrospect, III I you know, someone needed to to take care of me at the end of that run, and there was no and because I was strung out, no one was there to take care of the actors either. [00:15:00] And we just probably needed someone to sort of debrief us a little bit. But as it turned out, the the the the cast was on stage crying their eyes out on the last performance. And, yeah, it was a real tough show. And you were saying that some of the family members for the murderers were actually in the audience as well? Yeah, What a bizarre thing. They told me that they were going to come, and, um, I said, Great. And I said, We'll [00:15:30] need to meet in the bats office. Um, you know, half hour before the show and they did, and I sat him down, I explained what the show was going to be like. It would probably be very difficult for them. I told him where the lines came from and the dialogue and pointed to all these references that we had. And I said, I will not put up with any outbursts from you all. And there'll be a security guy. I will be sitting with you all, and there'll be a security [00:16:00] guy right beside me. And that's the deal. They they agreed to that. Oh, Hells Bells. Can you imagine what it's like to sit with the family? I put myself there because I It's my responsibility, but damn. You know, I guess I've said I've had worse times in the theatre, but nevertheless, it was it was a tough time. It was a really, really tough, tough time. Um and, um, yeah, it was It was Everything [00:16:30] went fine that night, but, uh, the consequently the, you know, I. I mentioned something about Wikipedia. Uh, some of the actors have routinely gone into Wikipedia and taken their names off because they don't even want to be known for having done this show because they're scared of the of the murderers. And even even as we opened and we were putting the programme together, one guy tried to not have his name on the programme. So, um [00:17:00] yeah, tough times. It was good. How how did the families respond? After the performance, Jeff's dad fled. He didn't want to talk to me. And that's fun. I can understand that. Um, Jeff's sister, um, arrived intoxicated and had to go home halfway through the play. Uh, [00:17:30] I sent her an email. I don't think she responded. His friends? Yeah, there's lots of people in town, you know, Even now he's born. He's 14 in 1999. So that make him you know what, 25 right now? So there's lots of young people out there that went to school with Jeff and and and and knew him well. And, uh, every once in a while, I run into him. You know, uh, and and, [00:18:00] um, some of them saw the show and were deeply moved by it. Yeah, uh, and his teachers and, you know, and his neighbours and, you know, uh, gay community. Probably I never I never got I you know, my business plan for that show. I imagine half my audience would be gay. It wasn't more like 10% such a small town. You can look at 100 people and, you know, [00:18:30] you know, identify or he employed to figure out who's who's a homo in the house or not. But so, you know, that's pretty easy. And, uh, yes, less than 10%. Shocking, shocking, shocking little bit to do with it being a bat and just quite not posh enough for most some homos. But but nevertheless, it, uh, I was really shocked that they were not my key audience. I had done a thing on on RNZ and and with with, uh, nine to noon and [00:19:00] and that brought in a lot of people. Plus, there was a piece in the Dominion Post, but I had people there in their eighties and people there who were 15. So it was, uh it was a a massive cross section of the community. Does that play still affect you? Jeff still affects me. Um, In what way? Well, every time I go past him for a lucky place, if I should be walking up there or um [00:19:30] um, somebody just bought a flat over there. Uh, I was talking to him about that, and I said, Well, of course, that's really close to where Jeff Worthington was killed. Um, they tore down the gas station. Used to be I couldn't walk past that place where the gas station was, and that's where he essentially got in the car with with with the guys. Um, that used to move me every time. But, you know, the the bucket fun. We can hear it as we speak now. I mean, [00:20:00] that's where Jeff drank out of the night. He was He was murdered as a joke, you know, So he He's He's sort of everywhere, you know? Um, yeah, There was some strange kind of ghost, like stuff that was happening right before I started rehearsal for the show and met somebody when I went to Mass, um, who had walked up out of nowhere and sort of knew who I was and told me that they had had visitations from Jeff, [00:20:30] who assured me that he wanted the show to go on, You know, what do you do with that? You say OK, but yeah, that actually happened. And, uh, sort of bizarre stuff like that, and and these people weren't crazy. God knows I know about crazy, but they, you know, they weren't nuts. So, you know, it just it it had a the the the show had a had A, uh it's really, really community based. Uh, a lot of people in theatre didn't [00:21:00] see it or they had heard about it. But, you know, I hadn't had those kind of contacts at the time. And, um uh, it's always amazing when I meet somebody who who saw it. I remember somebody at the bar the other night and they started talking about it like I saw it eight times, you know, and they said stuff that I had forgotten. So, yeah, it still affects me. It's It's it's it's it's a pretty good work. I don't know if it ever can be done again, just given the ins and outs of who wrote it and who didn't write [00:21:30] it and and those sort of things. But, um, yeah, it's, uh it's, uh, the the the um there's a trailer from it on the website. At one point we thought we were gonna be able to tour it. That's why we prepared this trailer. And God, you know that that alone, the trailer alone looks looks damn good. Um, the reviews were pretty good to excellent. Um, a few swipes here and there, but nevertheless, I mean, it was just to [00:22:00] me. So when I approached say brickle about mates and lovers, I had to say that, you know, in spite of my goofy accent, um, I've, you know, I've dabbled in this sort of world before, and, uh, and in a lot of ways, Mason lover is a lot easier to approach and say, you know, Jeff Whittington and and and his murder. So maybe that endeared myself to, uh, to Chris, I don't know. Even though in the play you're not saying that Jeff [00:22:30] was either gay or straight. Do you consider the play, uh, as a as a queer theatre? How How would you define it? No, it's a play about queers. And, um, Jeff's sister was convinced that he was gay and many of his friends were. How many 14 year olds in 1998 99 were ready to come out? I mean, it was sort of a different world, even even 11 [00:23:00] years ago. Um, but given his journal and his diaries and and things like that, uh, Jeff's sister always always thought he was gay. Uh, Queer Theatre. It's queer one in terms of it being an outsider talking about an outsider. Jeff had purple hair, pink fingernails and and was an outsider. And he was an outsider who was killed and not too many people gave a damn. Uh, it's, you know, that's that's part of what Queerness [00:23:30] is. Um uh, his there there. There was a lot of talk of, of, of of gayness in the show. Um, and that made it clear, I don't know about it being Queer Theatre. I think mates and lovers is is more queer than than corner forum in Cuba. Yeah, but what's you know what's again? What's queer? I mean, um, Ed Wood. You know, uh, with the pink cardigan sweaters. Who's straight as [00:24:00] an arrow is pretty queer. Uh, it depends how you find that. Define that is a gay lesbian. Yeah, sure is. Yeah. Ben, Uh, Bud Bud, Uh, a play I did about a, uh, man in his sixties. Sort of coming out in the 19 fifties. Uh, reflecting on the, uh uh uh film. Um, that's pretty queer. Yeah, um, but [00:24:30] I probably didn't want to use that label with corner forum in Cuba in that I wasn't completely writing it. And, uh, I was a producer and director. I think I produced it. I don't know. I think I did, but, uh, I needed IIII. I, uh most of people in the cast were straight, and there would have been some sort of political problems. Small P political kind of problems with using that word at that time. It may be different now, [00:25:00] but my stuff now is certainly queer. Yeah, just going back a few years, say to the mid two thousands, Was there much queer or gay and lesbian theatre happening in New Zealand? Uh, in my travels, whether online or in person or whatever, I can I I think I have a grasp on the stuff that has been done in the last 20 years. Um, original stuff is is few and far between. Um, [00:25:30] a lot of feminist stuff was done in the nineties here in town, eighties and nineties. Hen's teeth. I think it was called, I think. But I I have Yeah, the the the the queer stuff. Uh, the original queer stuff is is few and far between. There's productions of Rocky Horror. Uh, there's two. You know, You and I talked about the the the play bent. There's a couple of productions of that in in town here. [00:26:00] Um uh, they're doing rent in, uh, in, uh, in Auckland as we speak. There's been productions in Hamilton and Christchurch. Um, yeah, that's about it. Not not much, Uh, and and I say original because that's to me. That's the stuff that counts. Um, anybody can take a a play off the shelf and and, you know Torch song trilogy. Um um and you know, do it and you [00:26:30] know that's pretty easy peasy. Do it in an interesting and engaging way is another story, but new stuff, I would say very little in the last five or six years. Mhm. Do you find yourself gravitating more towards kind of queer theatre storylines? Yeah, because you know, it's a it's the unmined gold mine. I mean, we're talking [00:27:00] about a group of people that have been around since prehistory, and no one's bothered to write much about them. You and I were talking about the the the survivors of the Nazi attempt to exterminate homosexuals during the Third Reich and, uh, how it all came out in the eighties. And, uh, by the time it did, most of those guys were dead. So there's a lot of experiences out there and a lot of lives that have been lived in a fascinating [00:27:30] and amazing way that no one's talked about in in New Zealand. It's It's particularly interesting because it's not as, uh, paradoxically, um, uh, what's a good word? It's It's It's not as confrontational as say it was in the US, and you know the uh, the religious right in the 19 eighties wasn't, you know, [00:28:00] suggesting that they quarantine fags and put them on an island in the middle of the, uh, harbour. There was a little bit of that, but it it it there was. It was far more subtle here and and, uh, a a lot less confrontational than, say in the US. But nevertheless, people's lives were lived in the closet or in misery because of this social standards. And I there's just a lot of good stories, and there's there's a lot of fun, too. I mean, it's it's a it it it it's It's [00:28:30] a community awakening, for instance, Just last, uh, about a year or so I saw a group of one acts in in, uh in Auckland by some young practitioners who were who were Asian. And that sort of thing was happening all around the other the rest of the world about in the 19 seventies. And maybe that came and went in in Auckland. But nevertheless, this was the first outing for for these folks to to begin to talk about what it's like to be Asian in Auckland or or New Zealand, and that's important stuff. [00:29:00] And so, um, what can we call it? Constituency. Uh uh. Theatre or identity? Politics Theatre? I don't know, but nevertheless, it's It's, um there's a lot of stuff out there. So, uh, Chris's book is, you know, 400 odd pages with heaps of photographic probably could have been 800 you know, And and And people, he's an academic. And and this was one thing that he was interested in, And, uh uh, [00:29:30] uh, there could be a volume two, volume three or whatever. I don't know if he'll ever do it. I don't know if he wants to spend that sort of time on this project, but there's just heaps and heaps of stuff out there. Chris's book. Um, mates and lovers, um, came out a couple of years ago. How did you What? What were the challenges for you working on a text? That was by a local author, a living local author. Well, the story goes, and it's true that I I [00:30:00] was at a conference. A friend of mine got me into a conference about queer linguistics down at the train station. And, uh, I was writing a very what I thought was a philosophically fascinating and wonderful story that had lots of sex in it in the play. And it was sort of going nowhere fast and except the sex stuff. And, uh, it was raining like hell out. And I was on a bus and had my iPod on and all the windows were fogged up. I got out of the bus, and by the time I realised [00:30:30] where I was, the bus had bugger down the road and I was standing in front of Unity books and it was pouring down rain. So I, I said, I'll dodge the, uh, I'll dodge the rain. Uh, by going into the unity books, I knew Chris's book had been released. I hadn't seen it. I walked in, saw it, saw the cover, flipped through the book and said, I can do a play on this. It's that simple. I just knew that everything was there. [00:31:00] It intrigued me. The photograph, like many people, intrigued me. The photograph of the two guys, uh, we named Corey. Uh, we named Ben and Toby, um, on the cover. And, uh, just that that, you know, the the the homo eroticism and the chairs turned backwards and the touching knees and on and on and on the different classes The one guy with a bowler, One guy with a with sort of a working man sort of garb on all that really fascinated me. And and I, I [00:31:30] just always knew that'd be component of the play. It was that easy. So who in the hell is Chris Brickle? Good old Facebook. So I go on Facebook and there he was, this sort of chair looking academic from hut, you know? So, uh, I email him and eventually call him. And, you know, probably the third thing I said to him was, And I want to do a play about your book and he says, Fabulous. [00:32:00] I thought, What a pushover. Fabulous. That's what he said. And he was happy as a pig and shit and and continues to be. And, um, um came and saw the play nervously, but just, uh, just had a great time. He took his parents, you know, for that. And and they came and we went out for drinks afterwards, and he was autographing books and my actors to have a book. So they had the script and he autographed my [00:32:30] script, which pissed me off. I'm kidding, but yeah, he was just He was just great. And And he he he harassed me for weeks, wanting autographs of the of the of the actors on the programmes and things like that. So, yeah, he's been great. He's been great. He, uh his his his his boyfriend, his partner does, uh, work at the Globe Theatre in in Dunedin. Uh, an amateur theatre company. So, um, uh, Chris Chris likes theatre, and, uh, he's looking [00:33:00] forward to the to the new show. There were so many wonderful stories in Chris's book. How did you, I guess, focus in on particular events. Well, you have to come up with a formula. And, uh, gee, that's what I learned at school and, um, how I wanted to approach it. Sure, there's lots of great stories and there's still there's lots of stories that I didn't touch. And and there's a real reason why I didn't touch them or the The formula I came [00:33:30] up with was, um, a framework of using bits of gender theory explained in Chris's book and elsewhere of, um, homos, social ho erotic homosexual. And, uh, I used those terms to divide the show up in thirds and and in terms of the homos social was, uh, these guys posing on the cover in in 18 84. [00:34:00] I'm sorry. 18 84? Yes. And then homo erotic came in 1930 something. And the the thing I wrote was one guy had lost his dog and there was just a really erotic quality of that. And the last one was in 86 or 87 after law reform. And it was it was that was a homosexual element. What I did was move it chronologically through through history and worked with the phrases becoming a sodomite, becoming [00:34:30] an Oscar, becoming a puf, becoming a queen, becoming homosexual, becoming gay. And then at the end, there was this whole element that I have to rewrite and work on the idea of post gay as well. Never says it's becoming queer. So I used the words they called us to define different sections in the book and wanted to find scenes that somehow demoing demoed those, uh, those elements. So there was a real formula. [00:35:00] And when I didn't find the scenes I, I made them up um, or I used real elements like the the the the Cantonese scene with the Chinese gold miners in Otago. I mean, Chris mentions one line about how the miners use this the the abandoned mines to have sex. Uh, and I took off on that, um, Eric McCormick. There's a little bit about Eric McCormick, and and I wrote him into into scenes. Um, [00:35:30] it was just the the the the bits on law reform, for instance, Uh, I knew all those guys are around town, you know that. So I thought if I start mentioning people's names or specific actions, I knew I didn't want to talk about what was happening in Parliament. I didn't wanna drag it down to Fran Wild and counting up votes and all that sort of stuff. I knew I didn't wanna go there. So what I did was some some original research about, um uh, this business of, um, stealing bricks from, [00:36:00] uh, work sites and wrapping them up and sending to the Salvation Army. Uh, that did. And and and some of the speech of the drag queen. You know, that II I wanted to distance myself from from law reform um, nothing about civil unions, and that was probably intentional. Um, I think if I eventually do anything about that, it'll be kind of a little SN. Maybe I'm thinking, How do you make [00:36:30] a character queer? I mean, is it in the language? Is it in the the motions? What are your thoughts on that? I think queer use language a little bit differently. I think they speak slightly differently without putting stereotypes like Lisps. Um, there could be quality of pretence in the accent. Gay men were leaving New Zealand droves in the sixties, fifties, sixties, [00:37:00] seventies, eighties, nineties. You know, they would come back from London and have a posh accent. Or, you know, they'd come back from L A and have an American accent or something. So there's something always slightly different about them. It's It's the way that you can bring somebody up on the phone, you know, bloody telecom. And you say, Oh, I got a poof. You know, you just know that right? And and and so there's that quality and obviously who they are, what they're doing on stage. I think queer [00:37:30] men are always willing to take a little bit of a risk and they'll say things that maybe they shouldn't and they'll play little games sometimes. So they think they're funny. Uh, Maya, my actors who were decades younger than me, were always shocked at my sex jokes, and that's pretty typical for gay men my age. When in doubt, there's, you know, a joke about, you know, a 4 ft dick or for instance, for [00:38:00] instance, I was talking to a bartender the other night and I pulled out my a SBF card to pay for a beer, and I thought I was clever. I held up the a SB card and I said, You know what a SB stands for? And I said, Americans are sexy bastards. And without even thinking about this guy says no, it means you have an asshole the size of a bus. Great, great funny, cool humour. And it's something that's been around for decades, right? It's the it's the you know, and this guy has. It's [00:38:30] a standard sort of queer joke. And, uh, one I used in Corner 4 a. m. in Cuba was, uh, he's about as tight as the Mount Vic bus tunnel. It's another one that has real authenticity in in Wellington, Uh, in mates and lovers was, uh, Willie's over. Well, and that's the cruising place up on Mount Vic. So all these are real. You know, all these are little in jokes that that homos tell each other. Maybe before the internet and before, uh, you know, queer folk and things like [00:39:00] that, but the, you know, any minority any, uh, uh, tribe will have their own jokes. Uh, and and those are some examples of those. So I always think that I always think the gay guys are just slightly more funny, you know, they have to be. I was at a party the other day and and and somebody was there and they made these incredibly elaborate cupcakes. This is so queer. Made these in incredible with [00:39:30] Disney characters on them. And seriously, they it's so gay. And they're like, 20 different Disney characters. And I heard these two old farts behind me say, one says, Oh, you're so clever. And the other guy says, Of course he's clever. He's gay, You know, which I thought I thought that, you know, it's really kind of interesting, you know? So whether we work ourselves to these stereotypes where we're born with those attributes, I don't know, [00:40:00] but nevertheless, it's a it's that's, I think, where a queer character comes from. Uh uh, beyond the the the limped stereotypes, uh, that are not too funny, drag queens and that sort of thing. So when you're working with actors, how do you get them to play queer without falling back into those stereotypes of limped [00:40:30] actions? I guess I think of Sam doing, uh, I forget the character's name towards the end of the show. He's there with Mark, who's on the street and they're they're handing out condoms and cruising at the same time where the old public library used to be. And, um, the character that Sam's playing is a is obsessed with superheroes, and he he goes moon walking across the stage and says, You know, we're [00:41:00] we're you know, we're armed only with latex and love, and it's just a Sam always, he says. You didn't write this for me, did you? And of course I did, you know, because I knew he'd love it. But it's just a It was just an intergenerational thing about a very sort of spunky, naive kid and and and and a much older, wiser, well worn out gay man. So who shoves him into the bugs if you remember? So, um, [00:41:30] they sort of knew those characters. And they were They were written within the lines that that that you know, how I how I wanted that. Maybe I. I wish I could think of another example of where, um, uh, look at, uh, Percy Otwell in, uh, the, uh, sea cliff, uh, asylum in Otago in in 18. 90 something. Uh, he's a young man. I think he's 19, and he's been [00:42:00] thrown in the the loony bin for kind of harassing a a younger man at 15. And, um, all those lines that were in the show were in Chris's account, and he had done that original research. Um, so, uh, the lines itself were just so impassioned that it was it was reasonably There wasn't much guesswork in building that character. Um, yeah, I'm thinking I wish I remember [00:42:30] the show. Um, but probably that happens in the writing, as opposed to the directing and the acting. Um, the the you know, the drag queens were wonderful. Uh, for instance, uh, if you remember the ones in Christ Church. And this happened where these drag queens would be in Cathedral Square and they would call out to guys that they had had sex with getting them to do to sign a petition for law reform 10 years before it was passed. [00:43:00] And it is It was it was wonderful. And that scene is gonna be expanded. And, um uh, I guess in those lines, um, I was just thinking about the 00, look, there's a sailor and and and the other one says, Oh yeah, he's Turkish And, uh uh, they're sort of cooing over this sailor and and one of the drag queens says We speak both Greek and French and which is an old gay joke [00:43:30] and and just recycled and and and brought the house down, and he, you know he would. He would gesture to his mouth and and to his to his butt, it's It's It's those sort of things that, uh, you know, they're in the lines. And and once I explained what was working, um, uh, the actors cottoned on to it really well, Sometimes they wouldn't get the jokes because they're not old enough. You know, they they they just sort of wouldn't get it. I mean, I had to explain what Judy Garland meant to queer culture. For instance, uh, which was fun. [00:44:00] And you know, these guys Well, you know, we were all you know, uh, Sam and two or three other people with the show, we all sort of enrolling in our excuse the pronunciation of this, our class a one year certificate that we're all diving in together. And we'll be having a pocket look, uh, meal every Sunday to to study this stuff So we can We can all learn together and and become, uh, better at this and, uh, uh, issues in terms [00:44:30] of the play. But But you know these, you know, Sam's learned a lot, you know, it's it's, uh you can stop on the street next time you see him and just, you know, poke him on the shoulder and say, you know, tell me about gender theory and this and that and for, you know, yeah, it's great. So, um, the research of the show is, uh, is is probably where the characters come from. For instance, I spent last week, uh, all over the Internet looking at Beastiality sites. Uh, because I'm doing [00:45:00] a seat about sheet fucking this guy. This Australian guy picks up one of the actors on the way to Wellington. Maybe he's coming to celebrate law reform or to demonstrate in one of the demonstrations, and the guy picks him up. He has a broad Australian accent and who tells them how to fuck sheep. You know how to get some gum boots on and how to pick the right kind of you and gonna know all the proper farm talk terminology. Once again, it's a real broad, nasty Australian accent. And finally, he's gonna let the kid out And, uh um, [00:45:30] he's gonna say, um, it's a little, you know, there's not many people around here If you don't find a girl, you remember what I said about, you know, the sheep and the kid is going to say, Well, actually, I I, I don't do girls. I'm I'm gay I. I like men and the Australian farmers is gonna be completely disgusted and revolting and say, That's that's perverted. That's disgusting. How dare you, God, that's against the laws of nature and God and you know that sort of thing. So you spend a week, believe it or not looking at [00:46:00] zoophilia or bestiality sites online. It's just kind of places that that this job takes me hard to explain to your friends. What do you do all day? It's amazing and disgusting world, by the way. So just speaking of, um, things like, um, perhaps decency laws and putting stuff on stage, Have you encountered any, um, problems or challenges with things like, um, uh, the physical nature of of, [00:46:30] you know, um, gay actions or skin on stage? It's always important and that as people on this planet and as the minority, we're always We see a lot about heterosexual sex and their relationships, and the world revolves around them. You know, constantly, and it's their world so but they don't know too much about us. Uh, [00:47:00] sometimes I like to keep it that way, but nevertheless, So there are some things that made some lovers that I wanted to demo about gay sex, and that was important to me. So the the the affair with the mayor, and, um, I'm so embarrassed I can't remember these characters. Say, uh, the Yikes, uh, the the whole incident with the mayor being extorted by, um, this guy and And it ends up [00:47:30] with a blow job in the, uh in the gallery and, um, Sam throwing his arms left and right and unbuttons his shirt. In fact, it's the very shirt I'm wearing now. I hate to say this, but, you know, I found in my closet the other day So the very shirt I'm wearing now, uh, he unbuttoned it and he and he he became this crucifix thing. This is my body, uh, you know, and and hallelujah. You know, the the the the What's His face Said So it was. It was really a graphic scene. [00:48:00] And there's a secret secret theatrical technique of of making sounds gurgling and gagging like you're sucking dick on stage. It's a that's a trade secret. I won't tell you, but nevertheless, it was certainly effective and and and just scared the shit out of me. So it's in rehearsal. I have my hands in my face. I'm saying, Oh God, what have I done? And so watching it on stage and and Hells Bells, Sam was into it. You would have thought that he was He was creaming his jeans. [00:48:30] You know, it was just astonishing. And, um, you know, he was he was going through those lines like that. It was It was shocking. And and, uh, you know, you could have heard a pin drop, but I wanted to say to people, Yep, this is how it works. And, yep, that can happen. And that's the way we do it on occasion. And, um, just like that, you know, uh, sex standing up five minutes, maybe four. the [00:49:00] There was another time where they were They were butt fucking And Sam was sitting on Kent, I think, uh, but they had their clothes on through that. So the only time that they were naked is when they were in the bath together. And people are naked when they're in the bath. Also didn't want to exploit these guys. And, um, they're in their underwear a lot. And, uh um, but, um, people did well with the nudity, and I felt it was completely appropriate and [00:49:30] worked really well, maybe just talking about the actors and actually casting Queer Theatre. What are the challenges of of of casting a queer theatre production? This was, uh, this was particularly hard. I used the model of putting an ad in big idea and and and at the time I, I had a far different approach to the show where I was going to use seven men, 5 to 7 men. And, uh, that's how the show was going to be. And, uh, I wanted, uh, lots [00:50:00] of different ethnicities and really just I forwarded an email around audition notice to everybody in this country and probably outside of this country. And the day came and I showed up at Toy and I had my production manager there and my lighting technician and everybody was there to help with forms and pencils and photographs and video tape and all sorts of things. And three guys showed up three guys who were all [00:50:30] too young, undertrained and kind of ignorant to the whole project. I nevertheless auditioned them and auditioned them well, the one guy said halfway through the audition in this show, Will I have to kiss a guy in every scene and I said, no, but you'll have to suck cock. It was very funny. I think I've waited decades to be able to say that I think I you [00:51:00] know, it felt so good. Uh, so, yeah, This is my world, buddy. You know? So, um, he didn't get cast. In fact, none of those guys got cast. And, uh, I had already, um, cast Sam, uh, after working with him in another little project. And, uh uh, Kent came along who had who had done some pilots of the of the show prior, and it became a two man show. So I went home and I thought, How am I gonna get out of this? Uh, because of onion, [00:51:30] Onion was a two woman show and was successful, and I'd had a lot of experience of of, uh, two people shows on stage. I thought I can do this at the time. Toy made me keep a journal of of my experiences. So I journaled the hell out of all this and the the angst and the despair and the horror of having dates and having two guys. And, you know, I really had to get my shit together and rewrite the whole damn play for two guys. [00:52:00] Shocking in the You know, uh, I'm looking for another actor. Uh, by this time, people will know what it's it mates and lovers is a is a commodity. It's on video tape. I can I can show them things and and they'll see how I do nudity. And they see how I do sex and and how the show is going to run. And, um uh, it'll be far easier. I think so, Yeah. I'm looking for a new guy now, and I think it'll be easier. I'm sort of waiting for him to come to me, So which sounds [00:52:30] a little absurd. But, you know, I've learned not to have open auditions. It was important for me to because it was such a community based show that it was that I really wanted it to open up to the gay community for people to get involved and didn't get that. Not at all. Why do you think only three people turned up for that first audition? Uh, it was a nudity. Scared them. You know, uh, and I think, uh, uh, I'm [00:53:00] a bit of a task master. I probably have that reputation. And, um, yeah, things in this town are you. It's shoulder tapped. And if you have open auditions, I think I've I've sort of formulated this afterwards. It sort of says that you're not You don't have your shit together. You you know that you're out on the street begging. Quite the contrary. I wanted to get more homos involved. Uh, the the the the guy I told that story about [00:53:30] kissing and things like that was indeed straight. And so his, uh, one of the other guys was more quite willing to take his clothes off, which was the exact opposite sort of person I wanted, you know? So that was all very funny. And and, you know, I think he's like a junior stripper or something, but, um, yeah, it's a it's a nudity is a funny thing. And, uh, it has to be used really sparingly, or it has no effect. So if you remember the the scene these guys, [00:54:00] uh, Sam carrying Kent from upstage downstairs naked and you don't even you don't even see the crotches is was lit in a way that I I didn't wanna expose I didn't want to exploit them very next day, You know, on a blog here in town, somebody is talking about, You know, Sam's weenie. Like it was a you know, public, uh, something to talk about online. But, you know, it's a risk you take. You know, it's disappointing. So would you cast straight actors in such [00:54:30] a, um, a queer theatre piece? Yeah, sure. You know, um, they'd have to learn a lot and and catch up, and and and, um, uh, they'd have to be really open. We were doing a small piece of it up at Vic for one of my classes, and I hire I had asked one of the undergraduates to run some lights for me. And after that [00:55:00] blowjob scene, he shouted across the room, He says, uh, Ronald I. I kind of felt something after that scene. Does that make me gay? I said, no. It just makes you human. You know, I just It's It's sex, you know? So, um yeah, III I it it's it's it's it's it's these guys Sam and Kent had this overwhelming sense of, you know, they had a really solid sense of responsibility. [00:55:30] I mean, we you know, I we talked about this is the first time these stories are being told and these are our people. And, uh, these are our brothers stories and and And, you know, they had that resting on their shoulders, you know? And it was It was remarkable. They they worked hard. It was a hard show to do, you know, 30 odd characters. I mean, you know, it was it was a hard, hard show to do, and but they they felt that responsibility. And [00:56:00] they rose to that occasion. Yeah. Is that had a spirit? It's a little show that could So they had a real spirit about them that didn't have much to do with me as the writer and director and producer. It it it, you know, it was empowering. It sounds so cheesy, doesn't it? But it was empowering them and, you know, and they took off on it. It was It was great. It was great. And it it'll continue to be great. I mean, you know, it's a it's a show with two chairs that we can take. The idea [00:56:30] is that we can take it to a bar or we can take it to downstage. We can take it. We can take that show anywhere, and it will continue to be like that. Do you think, actors, um maybe didn't audition because they would feel a stigma for for from doing a queer theatre piece? Um, no, there are. There are other pieces in town where straight people play gay people. It's but the the the roles [00:57:00] the roles are few and far between for gay people. So, uh, um, I don't think it's the dilemma. Comes up much. Um, so, like, Johnny Depp is the queer pirate. I mean I mean, we're not we're not at those We're not in those those those sort of competitive situations. So it, uh, it's not gonna affect anybody like that, you know? Do do you feel that you will be pigeonholed into just being AAA queer? Playwright? Is that how you see yourself? No, [00:57:30] No, Um, there's this guy in New Zealand who's written a book about people down on the South Island someplace who believe that they see Moose out in the bush. This fascinates me and and he's written a book about it. So here are all these. He goes out and he talks to these people who've seen these moos and and that just knocks me out. I said, I. I hear that. And I said I could [00:58:00] do a play in that in 10 minutes That that's easy peasy, the moose conversations or the moose monologues. I mean, this is great shit, right? I mean, the same thing, I think. And MOAs, too. I wanna believe that there's lots of people out there who think they've talked to MOAs. It's not about MOAs or Moos. It's about the kind of people that want to talk about that sort of thing. And where that takes that journey takes you that interests me. So, uh, uh, you know, there's I have two or three projects in my head ahead of me, and they're all they're all very queer. But also, [00:58:30] this is this is kind of a niche, too, and I've got to look at that, Um, that it It's a way to some people would say it's limiting, but I feel like it's it's, you know, it's, you know, there's a lot out there. Yeah, I mean, and that's what fans is all about. Uh, you know, fabulous art art in New Zealand is is to be able to, you know, it's becoming a charitable trust and which will make things easily, easier, financially and [00:59:00] and be able to uh uh, Support other gay stuff. You know, Um uh, So there's, you know, there's some practitioners out there. The goal is to eventually have a theatre festival here in Wellington once a year, which would, you know, it sounds big and fantastic, but, you know, there's three or four theatres in town. We coordinate their schedules, and we have new, um, season seasons of new shows, uh, once a year, and get the practitioners from all around the country. It's not like queers are unknown in [00:59:30] the theatre world, right? Because you know, every other one is gay. So it's It's just that we've never had a place to call home here. At least not in this decade or the next decade. Um, so that that's that's that's That's a goal. That's an idea. It was interesting, though, earlier on you were talking about, um, corner 4 a. m. in Cuba, where you were saying that the majority of the audience appeared to be straight. How how do you see your audiences? What? [01:00:00] What what audience are you targeting? Well, you know, uh, mate and lovers, um, because my mate was the was doing box office. Uh, who's a homo? and, uh, knows because he was doing boxing. He talked to everybody that saw the show and gave them tickets, et cetera. You know, he gave me some really solid numbers and I agreed with him. So my my audience for mates and lovers was about 40% [01:00:30] gay, male over 40 and the rest believe it or not, the next demographic were dykes. Who would have thought that and then the the the other 40% were, um, typically over 30. But rarely did anybody come in their twenties to see my show, which is real weird. And, um, I would have thought that these [01:01:00] 2 25 year olds during the show would have brought him in and didn't happen. And, uh uh, it may be different in Auckland, and, uh, we're gonna be working the clubs up there a lot and doing, you know, doing launches and things like that to I. I think the season will do well one way or the other. I'm just trying to get younger, queer people engaged in theatre. I'm trying to I'm trying to I'm trying to, you know, they [01:01:30] guys in their twenties thinks that they invented cock sucking I mean, it's it's, you know, it's it's just astounding. Like like any young people anywhere, I feel like they're the first people to do anything. And and I I just sort of want to tell them that they, you know, they have a history and a culture and a and a tribe that they can be proud of and and be nice to know a little bit about it. So So I'm sort of after that demographic, and, uh um, that that could be, uh, that it could be a challenge [01:02:00] to get one. When we were making this show this first time around, I used to rant about. We wanted people to come in and walk out. Having learned a little bit about New Zealand. I wanted gay people to walk in and say, Wow, we're here. We're queer. We always have been, you know, but it's still primarily a kind of New Zealand history. [01:02:30] This next season will be far pointed with things that happened here. For instance, you remember the American uh, marines? Um uh, who go up on Mount Vic and have sex with, uh, who tell that story? Uh, it, you know, they came down Cuba Street, you know, But I'll probably tie it into the, uh, the Manor Street Street riots in 1943. I'll mention that in passing. [01:03:00] So there'll be chunks of history that that that I'll be able to that that the audience will be able to relate to. It's like we're here. We're queer. And we always have been I mean, somebody I think somebody, you know, within shouting distance of the signing of the treaty were out in the bush doing Dick. You know, I want to think that I think it happened. So yeah, I mean, all those guys getting together. Hey, what are you doing after the signing? I don't know. I don't know. What do you do it? So you wanna go look at these carvings? Yeah. Let's go look at these. So, um uh, [01:03:30] I'm still thinking that I that I want them to come in and and walk out as having to learn a little bit about New Zealand. Do you have any other observations on audience reactions? What? Did you know? How did how did people react to one mates and lovers, but but also the Jeff to play as well I misjudged the corner forum in Cuba. Uh, because I There is a bit of a liturgical thing going [01:04:00] on. Uh uh. Where I wanted the actors to walk out of the theatre and lead the audience with them. And, um, I couldn't do that because of security reasons. And the actors were terrified. So it ended up with me outside of the show, um, giving people programmes. I wanted to give them programmes after the show. Nothing worse than sitting in a sitting in a theatre and watch people rustling through a programme. A fucking play [01:04:30] you wrote and they're reading the goddamn programme. So So just given the experiential quality of mates of a corner forum in Cuba and that they started outside and there was a procession thing about it and everything else. So I was outside giving them the programme and I was particularly bubbly and, you know, glad the show was happening. I you know, I was I. I had beat people up and I was trying to give them a programme. A lot of them they didn't know who I was, but a lot of them would would deny it. [01:05:00] Uh, they they they you know, they were. They were blown out. They were shocked. They they were exactly where I wanted them to be. The trouble is, I wasn't able to see that at the moment. Foolish me, mates and lovers. Um uh, it was joyous. Now I've been in this town for a while and I've hung out in the bars and I have watched famous drag queens [01:05:30] members of Parliament famous old drag queens walk into pound or whatever. But when Sam and Kent and I walked into S and M after opening night, I mean, people applauded us. I mean, it was it was shocking. I've never seen that before. And I kept on. I kept on looking behind me, thinking there was somebody behind me and it was just really It was It was very funny and and and what that was about. And Malcolm and Scottie, they come over with this massive bottle of champagne [01:06:00] and everything was really funny and wonderful and and and what that was about they weren't applauding us, but they were applauding the stories. No one came up. People came up and said, Nice job, Ronald, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it was. It was a sense of ownership immediately for this stuff that that astounded me. They felt I was just a conduit, and that's exactly what I wanted them to think. That that that that's the beauty. Oh, I just put this shit together, you know? And that's true, you know, And these guys just did it, you know? So [01:06:30] it was just, you know, it was astounding, the immediate sense of ownership and and nobody's ever done that. Imagine that you've lived your life, you know, decades on this planet in this country. Nobody's told your story. So there were just riveting moments. I think about the line. Martha, the drag queen, says. I feel like I feel like I'm still in the Army, but I'm on the other side and I can't [01:07:00] tell anybody who I really am. Like I'm part of the resistance Now. A friend of mine gave me that line, and he described that's how the way he always felt. And so to hear that on stage, another one was, uh, the two guys after the last photograph during the homosexual scene, where, uh uh, Kent, he's really stroppy. He says. They're talking about sending out the photographs to the relatives or something. Uh, and and Sam says something like, Uh uh, [01:07:30] what if they can't deal with it? And he says, Well, they'll have to deal with it. We're legal now, and Sam says, no, we're just not illegal, right? And as a homo, as a gay man, I think that kind of insight is because I'm gay and and and and and and not to also, I just didn't wanna, like, kiss the ass of the people who [01:08:00] gave us law reform and saying, Oh, yeah, Gee, you gave us basic civil rights. So you're just, you know, you're just a godly human being, you know, II, I So, yeah, that That's why it was there. There was something there was. It was acknowledging that. But at the same time, you know, there was a little bit of a twist, you know? So, you know, I may do the same thing with with civil unions. Not everything's in the same thing with the with that whole litany of hate crimes and, um um, homosexual [01:08:30] panic defence. At the end of the show, people will not walk out of mates and lovers thinks Everything's happy in Homo land, I. I don't want to portray that. I mean, um, the stat I heard on No, it was on. It was on your website. Uh uh. Gay young men are 14 times more likely to commit suicide. Astonishing. Astonishing. Not everything's happy in homo land. You know, things are much better than it was 30 years ago. But nevertheless, things are are not great. And and [01:09:00] and that's part of my job, too. How easy do you find it to get, um, mainstream media coverage of of your work? Well, RNZ wasn't interested in this time. Even even though, you know, Chris had been interviewed by Kim Hill and and things like that. Uh, yeah, they didn't return phone calls. Um, I didn't try with with Fairfax or Dominion Post or anything like that. Um, my my stuff was everything [01:09:30] but mainstream. It'll be slightly different with this new season. I think, uh, I'll probably really be striving for it because the show is bigger, and it's gonna be You know, we're looking for this to be a big show by by my standards. I mean, it's not, you know, it's not miss. You know, Maybe I retitled this thing called Miss or something, you know, it would be great, but no, it's, uh, a fun. So it's not, It's it's it's it's so I'll probably have to court mainstream media a little [01:10:00] bit more. And, uh, I tried to get on that good morning show, and, you know, they didn't return phone calls. So, um, it's because of Chris's book winning the Montana. I thought I had a hook there. And, um um, we probably need, um, some really straight people going to see the show and saying that they liked it. I mean, the reviewers did that, and they're straight. But, um, uh, they also it's funny. They also commented about the gross sex. [01:10:30] Why was it gross? Uh, because it was queer sex. That's what made it gross. And, uh, that sort of shocked me. I had this show that I you know I saw the other night, The reviewer said there's gay sex on stage or simulations of gay sex on stage. Well, not sex, gay sex, so that makes it even worse, doesn't it? You know, you know. So, um uh, yeah, it's gonna take It's gonna take, uh um this this new [01:11:00] show. It's going to have some, you know, kind of people who are mainstream and and have bigger names than I have associated with the show. I think that'll bring some of that mainstream attention. But I think it deserves a little spot on 60 Minutes or, you know, I I, you know, close up. They spent, uh, you know, avenue Q I saw in New York 10 years ago and people think, you know, and and and what's his face? I close up. Mark Sansbury sort of talks about it like it's so avant garde, you know? And [01:11:30] here's rent. It's never been to New Zealand and and you know, are we Are we able to handle it now? And it's just this ridiculous shit, you know? I saw the show 12 years ago. I don't know. It was a long time ago, and meanwhile, you know, they just kiss ass to that kind of shit. And I'm an American, for God's sake, you know? I mean, here's the stuff in their backyard, and you know, that is that is vital and and and not my show. But many many shows, like Mine are vital and reflecting culture is doing the job they should be doing. [01:12:00] And of course, they get ignored for some flash production of Avenue Q. Some, you know, direct from New York in the West End. Oh, shit, it's a it's a company they put together in Sydney. Or or, you know, Saskatoon. Or, you know, L A or some place. It's not the New York production, so I can rant and rave about that all I want. But, you know, my show costs three beers the equivalent of three pints. For God's sake, just come and see my show. You know that that that I sweated [01:12:30] on, you know, for two years and you know, and it'll be much the same way in the Auckland season. We're talking, you know, if I I you know for fags, maybe I should say that it cost 100 bucks and they'll come running, you know, because there's a whole sort of element of being posh and cool and sophisticated and rich. Maybe I should do that, but I won't. But there's there's there's, uh, you know, people didn't come and see the bats because I think it was bats. You know, if it gets into another theatre. You know that's Flasher. We'll see how that [01:13:00] goes. They went and saw a a play I truly hate called. Um Well, what's the name of it? Um, boys in the band. I saw that play when I was 17 years old, and it scared me back into the closet. It did The stereotypes and the hatred and the bitterness and the bitchiness, the horror of it all. I Oh, boy, I'm not going there for a long. It took me a long time to get over that play yet because of the name recognition, every fag, and went and saw it. And it's not a very good play. And, um [01:13:30] anyway, uh, angels in America a a truly great play. But, you know, it's now what, 15 years old. And, um, my point to all this is that mates and lovers, like many plays in Wellington, are Wellingtons or New Zealanders or Practitioners. Theatre makers. Uh, you know, they're they're writing stuff and it's it's spitting out of the printer, and it's being given to actors and actors are rehearsing it, and it's a pretty fucking wonderful scene we got going [01:14:00] on, and we're doing our job. One's gotta ask if if the audience is doing their job as well. I was interested when you were saying about as a 17 year old seeing boys in the band and how that scared you back into the closet. How do you? I mean, do you feel you have a responsibility for a 17 year old seeing your work, um, to take something positive out of it? Do you? Do you think along those lines I think there's there's too many. [01:14:30] You'll hear this. You'll hear this from old farts in Wellington. Those those kids don't even know. They don't know what we struggled for back in 84 and 86 and you know, like it was, you know, the French Revolution or something, and and, um, that's true and they never do. But that's part of being a kid. Uh, you know, it's it is probably what my dad said about the Second World War. You know, it's it's what a kid is about, You know, that's what kids do. I guess with my show in that it's history, I. [01:15:00] I want them. There's just so many positive things. I mean, if if you tell them what Wellington was like in the seventies and eighties. It was astonishing. It was a far more fascinating and a wonderful scene that it is now. I mean, the drag queens that would walk up and down Cuba Street. Uh uh, A friend of mine, uh, we were talking once and and he was talking about, you know, he was showing me some amazing underground photographs of of a cabaret sort of thing in the in the seventies and eighties in Wellington. [01:15:30] And I said So what do you think, did it? How did it stop? Was it law reform? No. Was it HIV aids? No. Well, mate, what was it he'll say? Shipping containers, shipping containers. He says, Yeah, when there weren't shipping containers, the boats have all these sailors on it, and the sailors brought in the drugs and the pornography and the S and M gear and the and the sex and the costumes and the drag. And I said, He said once they left, everything got really boring. It's fascinating, fascinating, [01:16:00] and it's it's that kind of world that I would like to. I mean, it's our heritage. It's who we are. I mean, what makes it fun. Hey, the final, uh, question I what? We talked before I actually started recording, and And I asked you if you had, um, three wishes for the, uh, queer, uh, creative community in New Zealand or even just the queer community in New Zealand. And I was wondering if, um, if if you had time [01:16:30] to reflect on that the queer creative community in terms of theatre, I guess I can talk to about I think some of it is happening. I mean, we just had a little art gallery show up the street, which is pretty interesting. It'll be interesting what the out games bring out. There's a in other places and this. I always say this. I just had a friend emigrate here from L, a gay guy. And I said, you know, in L A they'll have the gay man's poodle club. [01:17:00] They will have the gay man's, um, Porsche Club. They will have, you know. So So we just don't have that sense of organising here, and, uh, that sense of, um, continuity. Uh, when I came here, I started queer gone kiwi. In fact, I started it before I emigrated. Knowing that that that there would be a need for that. The people get together faithfully every Wednesday night, have some beers, and and and [01:17:30] and and some of these folks, it's their main circle of friendship. For the last five or six years, it's astonishing. And, uh, that's that's really endured. So it's it's I guess what I would like to see is is an understanding of our identity and guarding against assimilation. Civil unions, adoptions say, if HIV AIDS went away tomorrow, uh uh uh, would [01:18:00] we just be the average middle class sort of folks down the street who sleep with the same gender? Well, God help us because we're far more interesting than that. We're we're we're We're our own people. I have a friend of mine who says, Don't forget, they still hate us, and they do. They could pretend that they don't whether they vote in Parliament with us against us, or they can pretend that they do [01:18:30] when they're writing a newspaper or talking to the queer relatives or whatever. But in the end, they are disgusted by us. And we need to remember that and, uh, be on guard. My my wish is that that the tribe, even in a small town like Wellington? Yeah, it would be nice to each other and, uh, a little less racist and, uh uh, a little [01:19:00] bit more supportive of the things that a few people are trying to do. Ronald. Thank you. Um, you've been so generous with your time and your thoughts today, so, um, I really appreciate that. And, um, thank you for allowing us to to document it.

IRN: 219
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/mike_bryant_and_esme_oliver.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003855
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089149
TITLE: Mike Bryant and Esme Oliver
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Esme Oliver; Mike Bryant
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 2010s; Esme Oliver; Mike Bryant; Pink Shirt Day; Roger Smith; Wai Ho; Wellington; gay; lesbian; media; queer; radio; school; transcript online; youth
DATE: 26 April 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Mike Bryant and Esme Oliver talk about being young and queer. This podcast was funded by a generous donation from Roger Smith.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So I'm here with Mike and Esme in a park with a piano. Hello? Hello. This This used to be a prostitute park. And then it was zeal, the youth club. And now it's just kind of here with piano. Lovely. You've both just come from a radio show. Tell me a bit about that. Um well, we host a radio show called Queer on Wellington Access. Very inventive name. We chose it for its originality. Um, it's part [00:00:30] of a group of shows called Youth Zone, which are about radium made by youth for youth. And, um, they wanted a quest specific one, because there's lots of just general youth ones. And so we we Well, you asked us. Actually, you got a push to ask someone, and you show us That's correct, because we are pretty magnificent. So tell me about how I asked you. Well, you said would you guys like to do a queer show? And we said Sure, and then we did. And we've been doing it for, I guess, about [00:01:00] a year now. I think so. I'm not sure about the dates I've always and we've had various people come along and do it with us. We used to have Maria. She did it with us for, um several several months And who did it for a couple of days And then earlier this year, I. I had to stop doing it for a while because of school. But, um, we've just recently changed the time slot, so now I'm back. But we had Brendan for a while and he's still around, and I've basically been getting in. Um, Brendan's been my permanent fixture along with [00:01:30] me, but we've also been getting in a different person every every week, just not even a special guest, really just a random co facilitator. But we we do try and get, um, interviews and guest spots from people who are, um, kind of something to do with with the queer community or just something in support of the queer community or something that's just of interest. Like like today we had two people from a musical come along and they weren't. You know, it's not a particularly queer [00:02:00] focused musical, but, you know, you just like music. I love musicals, so I thought, Why the hell not? And I mean plenty of people like me musicals and they were saying The musical has like a slightly clear story to it anyway. So what else? Did you just have interviews, or is there other stuff we do weekly segments that we have? And we do it every week like we have celebrity crushes and normally we have a boy and a girl, but that's sort of flexible to our desires and our las of the day. Today [00:02:30] I had four crushes. She's greedy, she's greedy. Uh, also, we have, uh, a thing called Dear Madonna, which we sort of talk about what's pissed off. So that week in a in A in a light and humorous way, uh, and we have There's something else. Top five and we normally pick something, and we do a top five of it like we will have top five favourite Disney movies or top five favourite bands or something. And today it was top five favourite pink things to tie in with pink shit day. Oh, and we also we play [00:03:00] a lot of music and just kind of we just hang out and we just talk, really, And, um, it's we don't necessarily sit down and go, OK, we're going to talk about this queer issue or whatever we talk about, Whatever is going on for us at the time. And because we're all queer, We all come from a queer perspective that obviously plays a slut. And I mean, I don't think we want to make it overly queer because, I mean, we want everyone to be able to listen. We don't We don't want people to tune in and be like, Oh, they're talking about anal sex again. I don't want to listen to this, you know, And and Plus, I mean I. I mean, the I. I can [00:03:30] only talk from a personal point of view, but, I mean, I'm queer, but it doesn't dictate my entire life. I mean, it's like a lot of people say, um a a lot of bands who are classed as like Christian bands talk about how they come from a Christian life view, and so that obviously influences their music. But they don't classify themselves as a Christian band. I see that the same way with my sexuality. It's like I come from a queer perspective, but that doesn't mean that everything I do is queer, you know, I think that The point of it is more that we want the ability [00:04:00] to sort of make talking about queer things. OK, rather than having to talk about queer things. I think we want it to be a place where people can listen if they want to, for queer stuff or, you know, it's just a really relaxed show. And I think that's one of our main. It's not preachy, and that's good because so much stuff that's aimed at queer people is really preachy. And it's like we want marriage and Children and we're just like we want, you know, to talk we want to be able to bullshit for So do you [00:04:30] think being queered today for you, for both of you is is has changed. Oh, well, I guess you weren't around this. You wouldn't know. But I, I think I mean a lot of the stuff I've heard about, especially with, um like the the queer rights movements and stuff like that. You had to stand up and say, This is who I am. I am. I am a gay man or a lesbian woman or whatever and this is this is all that I am and I have to stand completely behind that. And I think now, because there is so much more acceptance, [00:05:00] I mean, that's it's still there's still there's still a lot of problems, but I mean, I think it's it's kind of it's more about what would be the problems school mainly, I think, um, II I think that being in school is one of the hardest things, and I've heard that even from people of the older generation, or like, you know, who have just come out recently, they were like coming out at school or being queer at school would be the hardest or has been the hardest thing, even in 2010. [00:05:30] Yeah, but I mean, the thing that I always say is that, um, a high school, especially, is like It's a micro organism of what society is like. You know, it's it's this tiny enclosed. It's a tiny little world with all these people who are They're like a hyper version of everything. They would be in the outside world, you know, everything's everything's so much more intense within high school, and there's so many more lines drawn. You know you have to be [00:06:00] this or you're that or you know, or you have You can't be that because then you can't be that, you know, like, because I kind of thought there was this, um, not a stereotype, but a perception that schools today or young people today were really, really open and really, you know, no boundaries. No, not no gender, but really fluid. And that kind of all environments are very judgmental, and they're very compartmentalised. You have to What does it depend on your school as well to an extent. But I still think that it's a hard thing to be out at school because [00:06:30] they are so based on stereotype and everyone at school. Everyone's a bastard. You know, kids are cruel. Yeah, even when at school, I was still at school? No, I'm at uni. I didn't have I have too bad a time, but I mean, I I've always been one of those people who sort of, like, stood separate from the crowd and didn't really care. There are a lot of people who do care and take all that stuff to heart. And I mean, just to go back to the previous point. I mean, a lot of people do think that school today [00:07:00] is a lot easier because they look at society and they see that it's so much easier than when they were young. But no one understands what being a high schooler now is like unless they are one. And I mean society can be, you know, a lot more accepting or not openly opposed or anything. But school is, you know, it's not going to change for a long time unless a lot of stuff is done, you know, So has it gotten? Is being queer kind of not an issue anymore? Now that you're not at school, it is [00:07:30] an issue, and I think that it's some it's It's like, you know, homophobia is like racism. It's it's always around and you know it's bad form to you might not get beaten up in the street, and and it's bad form to insult it. And you know everyone. Everyone frowns upon it. But I think that everyone still has these little prejudices and little uh, you know, ideas of what things should be. And it's very hard to see outside of what their ideas are, Uh, and [00:08:00] I think that's the main problem and I think it's almost I think it's almost worse now because I mean, when when it was clear that you couldn't come out or else you get the crap beaten out of you or whatever, you knew where the boundaries were. You knew where the lines were. You knew how that worked. But now, because it's so pushed under the carpet because you're not supposed to say, Hey, I hate gay people or whatever. I think it's a lot. It's a lot more vicious and a lot more poisonous because it is, It is. It is those secret whispers. It is those those behaviours that you can't pinpoint [00:08:30] and say That's homophobia because, you know, people don't want to show that they're homophobic, But still you can still tell. Well, it's it's still behaviour that stems from homophobia. But I mean, no one does it blatantly enough. Is it a look or do people? When I came out, the thing I had a problem with with was suddenly I had a lot more friends, like when I came out and I was sort of looking around and I was I was sort of, you know, they still had they still were uncomfortable with a lot of queer things that I said, and [00:09:00] I think that they suddenly sort of attached themselves to me so that they could look accepting, even if they not necessarily were. Yeah, so it was kind of like they were because they were friends with you. Therefore, they couldn't be homophobic. And so it excuses all their behaviour. And I think also the other side of the coin is people sort of deciding not to be friends with you. And it's not It's not necessarily it's not outright said. It's because you're gay, But, I mean, it's it's kind of So does it happen to you? Yeah. I, [00:09:30] I had, um a lot of a lot of the girls at my school wouldn't be friends with me or would sort of avoid me because I came. I came out really young. I came out in year 10. Um, when I was 14. That's 14. Uh, for me, I was I was 13, But, um, and it sort of Yeah. So that sort of coloured who I was all through school and there were girls who would just not get to know me, even though I was friends with their friends. They would purposefully not get to know me. If we're hanging out in the group, they would avoid [00:10:00] me because they just they didn't want to know, You know, for another thing for me was it was like I have. I had people who were like, Well, I'm fine with gay people But he rubs it in my face so I don't want to have to deal with them. And I'm like, I, I you know, I have a right to talk about my boyfriend Occasionally, I think I think that's it. They if you talk about who you're with or if if I said to someone, Oh, I have a crush on this guy and I think he's really cute. They see that in your face. They see that as me, sort of dancing [00:10:30] semi naked, going. I'm gay, I'm gay. I like it at the bottom. It's also that other thing of like, um, I would find if I would ever admit to having a crush on a straight girl. Everyone would be like, but she's straight. You can't have a crush on her. It's like, you know, I. I mean, I I've I've had a crush on, um, guys who have later found out to be gay. You know, that doesn't it doesn't stop me from having a crush on them that the and people just kind of I don't know. They just want you to stick [00:11:00] to your own kind and not really talk about it like they're OK with it as a in in theory. But when it's in practise and and then there's also the, uh I'm gay. Oh, do you have a crush on me? Uh, no. Well, why not? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's It's a major double standard. I remember very clearly when I was Oh, this is like I think it was fourth form. Um, I think it was Yeah, and we're having a party. We're all hanging out at my friend's place. [00:11:30] And, um, we're playing. Do you know the game? Gay chicken? No. OK, yes. You start in someone's place and you start like you start like, touching them like you can. You can either start out their foot and work your way out, or you can get close to, like, kiss or whatever. And the person who pulls away first is the gay chicken for some reason, I always want. But I mean, um, so you do it with someone of the same gender And, um, me and this girl who's actually quite a good friend of mine, um, were picked to go, and [00:12:00] I remember really clearly we were getting really close, and then she was like, No, no, no, I can't do it. You'll get off on it. And I was like, Excuse me, I already have, but it's like she's one of my best friends. I mean, I don't see her sexually at all, but she couldn't separate that line. I mean, she had really close guy friends and she couldn't understand that was the same thing for me, you know? And I think that's it's kind of that assumption. That's kind of sad. Really. Yeah, it's It's that assumption that you'll immediately like every guy or every girl you know, [00:12:30] Um, which is ridiculous. And then there are some of us who actually do like it. So what are the kind of things that you'd like to change in society if you were, I don't know, given a magic wand or something, I think I would. I would, um even the expectations for, um for queer people and straight people, you know, like a straight person isn't always expected to have a boyfriend or to always be talking about, you know, like change those expectations and also change the sort of the I don't know how the phrase is [00:13:00] it. OK, I'll talk out of my house. No, it's It's, I think what is trying to say is that like what? What I'm trying to say, I don't know. I'm not gonna speak. Speak for me if you want. No, I won't. Because I'll be wrong and you'll tell me that, Um, no, I think for me, it's I sort of don't want to lose the difference or the quirkiness. That gayness is seen as because I kind of like that. I like the fact that we're sort of our own thing. Lots. Lots of people are like we want to just [00:13:30] be into normal society. And I'm like, Well, no, I want to be seen as a sub something of society. I want to be seen as the queer community because I like the gay community and I like it being as it is, but it would be nice to to see it. Yeah, as Esme was saying, accepted and like like So if I came out to someone, they wouldn't think I would instantly like them, and and they wouldn't be like, Oh, I have a cousin who's gay. Would you like me to set you up? You [00:14:00] know, and it's like, you know, all gay people have sex, so they don't think that, you know, I'm gonna go out and have sex every night and, you know, I, I you know, I'd like to be seen as gay, but I don't want to be seen as fitting a stereotype or anything. I don't want them to go. Oh, he's gay because he acts like this and he looks like this. I want to be known as he's gay because he likes guys. I think that's sort of the I think it should also be changed on, like straight Guys who are a little bit camp shouldn't be immediately assumed to be gay, you know? And I think [00:14:30] just coming back to what you're saying about keeping the community, I think it's like a news interview coming back to what you were saying. I think It's like, um, tell us about the weather as well. My name is sunny showers. There are there are a lot of ethnic groups who are a part of society, but they also have their own community and their own celebrations and their own. So I think I think it should be like that. Like I mean, it's perfectly OK to be German in a New Zealand society, but you might also go and you know, we are leader, [00:15:00] leader house and and, you know, do strange dances with your family. And that's OK. I think it should be like that for gay people like it's OK to be gay at work or wherever, but you can still go and, you know, dance with a bunch of guys or girls or whatever. And it would be fun. You know, You'd know this too, because you're from Malaysia. Is it Malaysia? Yeah. And you know, you you identify as Malaysian New Zealander and as a as a queer woman. And you know, being Malaysian New Zealander is its own thing. You're not just a person. You're a person who [00:15:30] is also a thing. It should be like I'm a person who is also gay. So how do you involve yourself with the queer community or the gay community? Lots of sex and drugs. Uh, of course, we we we go to high school and we recruit as well. That's a big part of our job. We're big Satanists. He did all of that. And so you do. You do? Yeah, [00:16:00] we do the radio show. Um, we're technically on the committee for Wellington Gay Welfare group Wellington, but we never go, but we're on the committee. Um, I I we both We both volunteer at, um, out in the square Every time I do. I do stage managing for it, and I've done stage managing for other queer, Um, the stuff, um I think for me more than being, Oh, I'm a part of this committee and this committee, and I do this this and that, I think No, no, no. I mean, that's good, too, that I'm not I'm absolutely [00:16:30] not dissing that because that's that's a really powerful thing to be using those those tools to, you know, work for all the things that we would love to have. But I think for me more part of the being part of the queer community is going to things like schools out, which is the youth support group we we are part of and just sort of Yeah, I think it's just about socialising with other people who identify as queer people who sort of get that part of your life. You know it. It's totally a social thing. It's like, You know, if you're a [00:17:00] pregnant woman, you want to go to pregnant woman groups and meet up with other pregnant women so that you can connect. I don't know why I'm using pregnant women as an example is a temporary Oh, no, no. But you know, like or like or like being. I'm trying to be serious for once in my life and you're ruining this for me. I'm sorry. Serious business faces. Um, what was I saying? So yeah, but it is like being German. You would want to go in a certain group and we leader hos all [00:17:30] day. It's like a socialising thing in media people, but there is also the charity aspect, like if you if you are important for you, totally I, I think it's for me. It's important, but not as a queer Person. But as a humanitarian, you know I do it because it's fun and it's a way to meet new people. I go out and I collect for AIDS Day and I both do it and you know, you get in the room and you meet all these people you've never met before, and you can use it as a socialising tool as well as doing good for other people. And that's [00:18:00] sort of how we're in the queer community just by just by being our nutty Selves and like being in the I don't think you have to like you don't have to go to gay bars or you don't have to volunteer at a or whatever to be a good person. It's perfectly acceptable, but those aren't requirements for it, but it's just it. It's things you can do to sort of be a part of the community, but you do have to take a test. You get a report card and a licence, and it tells you, you know, [00:18:30] get tested on well, whether whether you like the colour lavender is a big one. Spice skills and pop music hot pink, you've got to be able to, you know, be able to see someone with a big dick from 10 miles away. You gotta be able to you know, I can't do that. If you're a gay woman, you can't shave your legs. And if you're a gay man, you have to shave your legs. So both of us are out talking about stereotypes. Do you think [00:19:00] they still exist? I mean, you know, obviously mainstream is a thing, but do we have it within communities as well? And how is that different from what mainstream does? Like, you know, you'll see all the like, you see lots of people, and they're like, Oh, she's she's Trans. You know, I don't like her because she's Trans and she freaks me out. Or or, you know, he's a drag queen. So he must be a bottom. And he must, you know, do all the stuff. And he must not be a proper man and [00:19:30] and you know, So we're still prone to a lot of the same. And also because because I am, I am fat. I'm a bigger, bigger build. I'm a fuller bodied meal. Um, I'm instantly put into the bear category, and it's like I'm not a bear. I'm I'm not a walking carpet, you know, it's it's just there. There are still the bears and the twinks and the and the mega Fes and whatever they are, And for me, I come from a point of view where I I just find myself as but I I do. I am attracted [00:20:00] to males and females. I date both males and females, and I think the 3D um I think the the the straight community think a girl who wears docks immediately. I'm a lesbian and, you know, um and if a guy ever does want to date me, it's just because I'll have sex with girls in front of him or something. You know, I've I've actually had that experience of people expecting that of me and, um, in the queer community. It's I always get called a fag hag. I've had I've had that quite a lot. Or, um, I'm straight [00:20:30] but pretending or I'm just experimenting or whatever like that. And it's like actually, no, I've I've known I've liked girls since I was a kid, but I do like boys as well, you know, I think up with it. What do you think is up with kind of all the judgments or the assumptions, I think are people just bored from the community. I think because a lot of us feel that we've been judged our whole life, I think that we sort of feel it gives us a right to judge others. And that extends to people in our community. I think that a lot of people who judge and [00:21:00] the and the gay community uh so, like, say if and I were really judgmental and, you know, we were like, Oh, this person has to has Yeah, but, you know, if we were, like, stereotypical and like Oh, this person has to be a bear or this person has to be a twink. Uh, if we were like that, then I think we would be judging straight people. Just as much as we judge gay people, I think it is sort of a I think it is a defence mechanism, I think, especially from the queer community. A lot of the feeling I've got is that it was so hard to get acceptance and you [00:21:30] had to stand up and you had to say, I am a man who loves men. I am a woman who loves women, you know? And I think that battle was so hard, so hard for so many years. I think someone coming along who could fit into the norm of society or could go the other way. It's sort of like you don't you don't deserve to be a part of this community because we've fought so hard to form this community and we want to keep it safe, you know? And I think there's a lot of a lot of that worried that it's gonna start breaking down the integrity of what they [00:22:00] fought so hard for. And I mean, I, I kind of understand that. But at the same time, I, I really don't. Uh, when I first came out, I came out as bisexual because I thought, uh, when I came out the first time, uh, when I when I told myself when I was 11 that I was bisexual in quotation marks, Uh, and I came out to most of my school. Uh, when I was Oh, no. I came out to my friends when I was 11 as bisexual. Then, when I was, uh, 15, I came out to [00:22:30] all my school as bisexual. And then when I was 16, I realised that I was gay and I came out as gay. So when I came out as bisexual, I thought I'd do that because I thought it would be easier, because that way I would at least be perceived as half normal. You know, not that normal. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, Uh, and but also, when I was bisexual, I found out about schools out, and I was like, Well, I don't need to go to that because I'm not actually gay. And I'm not I. I sort of felt like I wasn't [00:23:00] worthy enough to go to it because I was bisexual, not gay. And it was a gay group. So this is like a big ranking system. Excuse me. I am not finished. I just say one tiny thing When I when I first came to school that I was scared about saying I was bisexual because for that same thing, So you were you You meet gay people before who had said no. It was just Yeah. And then So I thought it would be easier. And then when I came out as gay and I was like, I'm gay. I realised [00:23:30] that it was actually a hell of a lot more difficult to be bisexual because you sort of get fired at from the gay community and the straight community. And it's like the straight community are like, You're not one of us we don't want You and the gay community are like, You're not one of us, we don't want you. And then and then you're like, Well, maybe I'm Trans and the Trans are like, no fuck off. And I wanted puppy I. I definitely find that as well. Like when? Because I just I just say queer part of why I just say queer is because if I say bisexual or pansexual or whatever, there is their attitude. And when people find out here [00:24:00] hear me talking about hot guys or whatever, they're just like, Ah, there's this moment where they're like, Oh, so you're not one of us, you know? And, um II I won't I won't name any names, but I was working with me. I'm sorry. I was I was working on this project with a bunch of other queer people and I I knew I said I was a lesbian to anyone, you know, they just assumed because I said queer. And when the person who was in charge of this project found out that I wasn't a lesbian but was, um, attracted to all genders, Um, [00:24:30] he kind of went a bit funny about that. And then he talked to Brendan, my youth worker, about that, and was and was asking him questions and asking him what he thought about it behind my back. And I was like, So there was a bit of education work done, but how is that even relevant? I'm here working in a Semiprofessional capacity. I'm I'm definitely queer. I'm definitely part of the community. I mean, it's not even relevant, And it wouldn't even be any of his business. Even if you are gay, it [00:25:00] doesn't give you a right to question a little bit more of kind of. Wow. I've never met anybody who didn't identify as gay or straight. Or is it? How, how new? And it was a who that's really whack. It was, um I don't believe you. And I think a lot of it is also when they do believe you. You're also perceived as greedy or just you don't think it's a young person thing. As in Oh, you're so young, you wouldn't know You haven't made up your mind Do you think it's a It's definitely a bisexual or pansexual or a queer? I think [00:25:30] I think it's more a prejudice against people who do, like, um, who aren't just gay, you know? And I think it's there's this perception of of being fake or being indecisive or being or just experimenting. Yeah. How did the rest of your friends when you came out to them, how did they all? Uh, most. Most of my friends were really good. One of one of them went a bit funny for a while. Uh, because he was like and I I've known him all all my life, And he was [00:26:00] I think mainly he was like, Well, why didn't you actually say anything before? And I think a lot of it was he was hurt, that he wasn't the first to know, or because I didn't tell him first because he was my best mate. And it would It was gonna be a hell of a lot harder to to tell him this, Uh, so I think a lot of it was the hurt, but mainly from my friends and close group of friends. They knew that I was sort of thinking about it, and I think most of them were OK, Uh, some of them, I think, are still uncomfortable with it, and they try to hide it with sort of humour. [00:26:30] But they at least put up the front of being accepting and and, you know, But, you know, they get to you get yeah, they're not they they're not sort of I hate gays. They're just sort of uncomfortable, and they don't know how to deal with it, even though they've been out for years and they're starting to come up, you know, be fine with it. But it was like they're like, Well, you're gay and they sort of mask it with humour. And they're you know, if I say something attractive about a girl and they're like But you're gay, she doesn't have a Penis, you know, just weird shit like that. And it's It's fine. They are trying. [00:27:00] I think for me, I, um I was the second in my group of friends to come out as bisexual, and I was quite new to the group of friends, and this other girl who had come out was she'd been friends with these girls since she was, like, five, you know, And so whatever she said, they were going to have to accept her. And when I came out, it was like they understood they would have been hypocritical if they weren't OK with it with me. But I think that's it's one of the things that always has always kept me a little bit distant [00:27:30] from that group of friends. Is them not knowing how to deal with that? You know, I'm not their friend. They've known since they were five, so they don't know me well enough, and that's kind of it's It's always been sort of Yeah, a slight, a slight thing that's sort of gotten between the friendships. Um, but I mean, I've I've I never really had I. I had really close friends when I was a kid, but all through high school I didn't really have really close friends until I came to school out because I just I apart from one girl, I just never really [00:28:00] clicked with people on that level and I think a lot of that was the queer thing was that people immediately sort of got this idea about me and and kept their distance. I think that one of the hardest things for a lot of straight people is sort of the feeling that that that that they have to accept it, It's just sort of like, you know, they're like, I have to accept it and they don't really get time to actually think about it and come to terms with it themselves. They're just because, you know, homophobia is seen as wrong in most circles. So a lot of people, they [00:28:30] may feel uncomfortable about it and they may have natural prejudice and they're like, Well, I actually feel this, but I have to act like I'm totally cool with it And I think that can be a hard for a lot of people and also when they bottle it up and not push it down, that it becomes more toxic. They have to. They have to come to terms with that. So do you think there should be like a straight people? I think a straight people support group for parents. So why can't there be groups for friends? I think I think it is. It is such [00:29:00] a It's a huge bombshell to drop on anyone, no matter how we feel that it shouldn't be because it shouldn't be. Everybody still assumes that everybody's straight unless they're told otherwise. Or, um and it. It shouldn't be this big bombshell, but the fact is that it is. And I think a lot of queer people get defensive when they come out, because it's such a hard thing to do. And you know, if anyone isn't immediately like Oh my God, you're gay that's so fantastic. It's it's It's a hard thing to deal with And I think when people have to fake that, it's really hard for them. [00:29:30] Did any of you Who are you talking to? Did struggle with yourselves with coming out? I think for me the hardest thing was, um I. I always knew that I I was attracted to both genders and I think for me there was this. There was this attitude coming from somewhere that you had to be straight or gay, and that was the thing I struggled with for a few years was like, I can't just [00:30:00] be a lesbian. I can't just be straight. I can't. I can't fit into those. And that that was hard. And then actually, in sixth classes, the idea of bisexuality got introduced. And then I was like, OK, I have a label now. I'm OK. And after that, I was I was fine with myself. It was it was that not knowing that it was an option that was hardest for me. Yeah, I. I came out as bisexual because I thought it would be normal. I didn't want to be seen as fully gay. Um, but apart from that and it was only a very vague, vague, vague notion in my [00:30:30] head that I didn't want to be seen as fully gay, you know, because it wasn't like it wasn't a decision going. I don't want to be gay because I didn't click that I was gay until later. I think it was a subconscious thing. I was going. I don't want to be seen as gay. Yeah, uh, but really, apart from that minor, vague sort of notion in the back of my head, I was I was fine with it within myself. uh, I'm too arrogant. I love myself too much to give a rat's ass healthy. [00:31:00] I think I think that two of the things that make us so confident and able to do things like the radio show and and be so welcoming schools out which we are. And it's what makes us be such great friends as well. Yeah, it is because we've always just had this confidence about about that. I mean, we've we've both had minor struggles, but it's never been a huge thing. And I mean, I absolutely have sympathy for people who for whom it is a huge thing. And I, I really and you [00:31:30] can totally understand everything that they're going through. It's just it never affected us as badly in a lot of ways, I've had similar struggles with different issues in my life, so I can I can empathise with that and it's fantastic that you are both kind of out there on all these committees and on the radio and everything, so that, you know, it's kind of that whole role model thing so people can see we don't have to be sad queers. We can be happy sick of the gay eggs. Man, [00:32:00] every gay film is like OK, Ah, a 2009. Well, actually, there's There's this movie I was actually talking about on the radio today. All over. The guy has no angst about being gay. All the angst is about the fact that these two guys just can't seem to make it work. And one of them is an alcoholic. So tell us where we can listen to. I don't we always screw up Wellington if we'd like to listen to you and laugh at you. Wellington Access Radio [00:32:30] 783 AM Monday is 3 30 till five. It's Queer Zone, and we're also you can find various stuff about us on the website. We're on Facebook, Wellington Access Radio Dash Queer and we also have an email address that you can email us at, which is Queer Youth on access at gmail dot com. That's all Lower case. A case with no symbols. It's a queer youth. On access at gmail dot com. I'm Mike and I'm thank you for listening. Stay cool. New Zealand [00:33:00] stay queer.

IRN: 142
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/brendan_goudswaard_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003856
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089150
TITLE: Brendan Goudswaard profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Brendan Goudswaard
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Brendan Goudswaard; School's Out (Wellington); Wai Ho; Wellington; coming out; drag; education; gay; health; profile; school; support; transcript online; youth
DATE: 27 April 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Brendan talks about growing up and being a facilitator with Schools Out - a queer youth group in Wellington. This interview was funded by a generous grant from Roger Smith.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So here we have Brendan, who's a community development worker, Um, for Wellington Gay Welfare Group. What's some stuff that you do in that role? Um, I coordinate a group called Schools Out, which is a a support and social group for queer youth. Uh, I got two groups going on in town and one hat. Both run weekly, And I also recently set up another queers group for 18 to 25 year olds called, uh, GB LT sandwich. [00:00:30] That's a great name. Yeah, and also looking at another group out in. So yes. And is schools out? Does that meet in schools, or is it after school and out of school or, uh, schools out meets, uh, once a week? Um uh, either in town or a hat at a particular venues which are queer, friendly, queer, friendly venues. Um, near near after school hours. And you've had a long history [00:01:00] of schools out? Yes. Yes. I used to go to schools out myself when I was in high school. Um, because schools that started in my high school while I was at high school. And so I started attending as a youth and for quite a few years, and I've now come back, uh, as a as a facilitator and organiser of the schools out Did you come? You came out at high school, you went to Wellington High, and that's where schools out started. What was that? Like, uh, [00:01:30] coming out and went to the high school was, uh, quite easy. I found that, uh, once I had come out as quite a lot easier for me at the high school. I didn't get as much harassment and bullying because before I came out, as a lot of people are yelling, abusive and homophobic stuff towards me, and I didn't know how to deal with it. Um, And then after I came out, people might, you know, try and bully me. I was like, Yeah, I am gay. So what? And I leave them with nothing else to say. So most people pretty good about it at school, [00:02:00] people were like, Yeah, we sort of guess from the first day of third form. So no one was particularly surprised. Um, yeah. And what about the teachers or what was, you know, faculty and, um, the teachers were generally really good. Uh, some of them were really good at something out. Uh, homophobia and, uh, getting out of the whole. That's OK thing. Um, yeah, some teachers really good. Great at getting to that and sorting that out. So [00:02:30] you would meet a lot of young people who go to a lot of different schools in Wellington. How do other schools in Wellington compare to Wellington? Um, there's a great variety of different schools, and, uh, and for you to come out of school, um, some of it's fine. Some of it It's hard at first, but is that some of them would never come out of their school. Um, yeah, some would [00:03:00] come out and some actually get a lot of harassment for coming out, um, and get really negative responses. And some of them get great responses and become great great role models in their schools. Um, yeah, there's a whole variety of reactions and responses to youth being out at school. And you do quite a lot of, I guess education and awareness, um, stuff in schools. How does that go? Um, that generally goes through Well, it could be quite fun. [00:03:30] I can get some interesting questions. What kind of interesting questions? Questions around, uh, relationships and sex. And, um yeah, uh, all sorts of stuff about what it's like being gay and, um, near all sorts of various random things. Um and did you always know that you were gay? [00:04:00] Um, I've always known that I was attracted to guys from a very young age. It wasn't until I was about 12 or 13. I could actually put a name to it. Um, because I remember as a kid when I was about, you know, 789, 10 years old. We were checking out guys on TV programmes. I think they were attractive. What V programmes? Things like Baywatch man to man. Yeah, I it was part of the thing was that they had to get the guys to at some point during the [00:04:30] programme, which I always found really exciting. And when you came out at school, did you also come out at home? Um, yeah, they were both fairly se they, you know, no longer beside each other. Um, yeah. So basically, when I came out at school, I came out at home. Um, it all sort of happened over a period of about six months. And how did your family. Uh, my family was, uh, overall was, uh, fairly [00:05:00] supportive. Um, they did take a while to get used to that idea. Um, and they weren't generally speaking, they weren't too surprised. Um, there's a few few actions on that. Um, generally, they're OK with that. Do you think they struggled with it at all? I think they did. For the first year or so. Um, but over time, they've gotten used to it, and yeah, they were really good to say, really supportive and talk about stuff with me. So and how did they respond? [00:05:30] Like, what did you actually say to them? And, um, they say, uh, my mother wasn't too surprised. Um, because one of my sewing class in high school, I made a rainbow top, and that was quite a big tip off for her. Uh, my father was surprised. Um, and he he always sort of knew I was a few minutes as a kid, but it didn't click that I might be gay. And, uh, he said that when he when they were trying for me, I was trying. They were trying for a girl. And that's [00:06:00] why I was gay. It was just one of the things, um, and my brother, he he didn't say too much at all. He was like, Oh, yeah, sweet. Um, so he didn't beat you up or anything? Well, he was in America at the time. So did he say to bully you as a kid or as much as any siblings do? I suppose, um, it was always a bit of push and shove between siblings. Uh, I remember one time [00:06:30] when I was about older, he was trying to get myself off me and end up kicking right across the room so he No, no, he was trying to get at me, and I was on the bed with him. He went flying across the room. Um, that the last time you ever tried to get at me, I had quite good league power, so yeah. Um, So what else does schools out there? Is it Is it a support group, or is it a networking group? Or, uh, it's a combination. It's both a support group for you if they do want support [00:07:00] and stuff. But it is also a good networking group. And it's also great for you because it's a place where they can go and meet other people like them going through the similar stuff. And so the labs of being gay and being queer and being, um, abnormal and stuff just completely drop away. Um, so, yeah, they get to be themselves and they get to be known for more about who they are and what their schools are and stuff rather than the fact that they're queer. Same. There's a kind of perception that, you know, everything's all sweet here today. We've [00:07:30] had we've had all these law changes and kids are you know, young people are really, really accepting and fluid and la la la. And then there's also the perception of, you know, quick kids always to kill themselves and self harm and are really depressed all the time. Are any of these stereotypes true? Or, uh, anyway, I think they both those ones are both sort of true in some ways and in other ways, they're completely not true, and nothing's fine. And, um, it's a bit of a chaotic me at times, I think, uh, [00:08:00] particularly for a lot of teenagers. Do you think there is stuff that queer youth face still today? that make things, I guess, more difficult than being straight. Or is it just normal teenage? Um, no. I think I think being being a queer teenager today is is a lot harder than being a heterosexual teenager. Um, I think, yeah, there's a lot of hard stuff they got to get through and face and stuff and challenges. Um hm. Like [00:08:30] like, um, come in terms of who they are, uh, dealing with family, doing with friends, coming out to their, um, classmates and stuff. I mean, if you're straight, you never have to come out and say, Hey, I'm straight. You know, you never have to declare that. Or maybe if you're questioning your gender, you generally you don't have to declare what the gender is, uh, except maybe on forms and stuff. And so if you're, you know, gender flawed, I'm sure about your gender and stuff. You've got to work out what your gender is and, you know, identify [00:09:00] with that and pronounce that. So are you coming across quite a few young people who are gender ambiguous or questioning their gender, and that kind of come across them every now and then? Um, probably I probably said to themselves more underground and harder to find because it's such a big issue. Um, and it's probably even secure and hard. Harder than just being gay or lesbian or just queer. So, yeah, And what, uh, been hearing a new kind of term that [00:09:30] people are identifying with, um asexuals. And someone was saying, No, no, I can't even be under the queer banner, But, um, at schools out, it's It's one of the descriptions. We, um yeah. Sexual is certainly something we've taken under our umbrella under our wing. Um, and we do have quite a few, you know, three or four youth who do identify as asexuals and might be gay and asexuals might be bisexual and asexuals [00:10:00] or whatever, Um, in that school, and yeah, we even have a few straight people schools out as well, and that's fine, too. So, um, we're open. We're open group open to anyone. We don't discriminate. So you did schools out voluntarily for for many years and you've just started, um, being paid now, part time for it. What other community stuff do you do? I know that you do. You do quite a chunk of it. Yeah. Um, [00:10:30] yes, I do. Yeah. Schools out. I also am part of the committee which organises part festival and out in the square. Um, we recently just had a art exhibition which went really well, and it was really successful. Um, and also on the four team. What does that stand for? Safety in schools for queers. And we've just got pink shirt day tomorrow. Tomorrow? Tomorrow? Yeah. Tell me about pink. Pink Shirt Day is [00:11:00] an international day. Um, where it's a anti-bullying campaign. Um, and it's not just it's not necessarily homophobia or anything. It's all pulling across all sorts, Uh, from gender to, uh, race to, um, size to just anyone who doesn't fit into the ideal. I suppose, um, or the normal or anyone who gets bullied in the race And most people have been bullied at some point in their [00:11:30] lives. Um, so yes. So there's a day to recognise, um, yeah, to help fight more to work against bullying. And so it just that people, all these community groups and high schools and primary schools and preschools and stuff will wear pink shirts on Wednesday. So it's a school thing. It's not just a school thing, Um, businesses that get involved as well. And, um, because bullying can happen in the workplaces as well. So, um, it's one thing. [00:12:00] And how did that start up? Did the SSPQ start that or um started the New Zealand, uh, pink shirt day, Uh, pink shirt. Day itself began in Canada, Uh, because a boy was being bullied for wear a pink shirt. His mates caught out of this, uh, thought it was pretty stink. And, uh, that afternoon they went down to the local, um, the shopping mall and got a whole lot of pink shirts [00:12:30] and pink tops and stuff. And then the next day, they, um, hand him out at the gate, Uh, and to show support for the mate who got bullied for wearing a pink shirt, Um, and the bullies never heard from again. And the guy who was bullied, the victim was just blown away by how awesome his mates were and how supportive they were. So, yeah, that was a few years ago. That happened. So you're on those committees and you also have an alter ego. Yeah. Yeah, I also have an [00:13:00] alter ego. Um, all my stage name, which I've been doing for seven years. Um, so I do quite a bit of community work with her? Yeah. And do shows for all sorts of things and travel the country with it as well. Um, yeah. Yes, I do. Quite a lot in the community. And how do you ever get hassled for being a drag queen? Or is it Is it Wellington and it, You know, um, I do get hassled for being a drag queen. Um, [00:13:30] I get a bit in Wellington, I'd probably say, uh, smaller towns around the country. I get more, more more of it. Do you think it's jealousy? Yes. Yes, it it's totally jealousy. The guys wish they could. Girls like girls like me and girls wish they could be Girls like me and girls wish they could get girls like me. And I don't know no, Um, no. I think it's more just, um, more of a fear of the unknown. Um uh, [00:14:00] and yeah, I think we could possibly be intimidating in some ways as well. Um, do you think it's because it's not clear that you I think, Yeah, I think because we do push the boundaries of gender And what is gender and stuff? Um, and I think people can be sort of taken back by that. And, um, yeah, I can find that quite confronting. [00:14:30] Do you experience homophobia as a gay man? And I guess, is when you're not in drag, I do a little bit. Um, if I do, I don't Really I don't think I know. I think I get more than what I notice. I don't think I notice it so much anymore. Um, I think because I've been getting bullying and harassment from such a young age, I think I've sort of got a thick skin when you were little. Little, Little, little. I think I remember getting bulling and harassment from when I was in preschool. Wow. [00:15:00] That's a really long time. Who would have thought 20 odd years of being bullied and harassed? Yeah. Um, but yeah, I think I think I just I just come to ignore it and stuff and headphones. You just have your headphones on and just keep walking and you don't notice it so much. But and I do get, um, bullying and harassment. Um, as a grown up gay male, um, and you to be on the situation will depend on how I deal with it from either just walking [00:15:30] or, uh, making a comment back, um, or throwing a coming out that just completely throws them off. So yeah. So you do quite a lot of community work. Why, Um, I definitely not for the money. Yeah, no II, I One of the thing is that I like to keep busy. Um, yeah. I like to live and enjoy life and try new things, but I think the other part [00:16:00] is I like to get involved, um, and do stuff. And I think it's important to get involved in the in the community, and, um, you a bit frightened? Um, yeah. I like to get out and do stuff. And why is it important for you? Oh, that's, um I think because I've always been quite outgoing myself, and I've always been quite out and proud, and I've also know people who aren't quite out and proud. Um, so [00:16:30] I think it's easy for me to get out there and do this stuff in the community, um, to maybe help those people who aren't out and proud to maybe feel may help them feel more relaxed and OK with who they are. A role model. Um, yeah, and I just really enjoy it. Did you feel like it was really supportive for you when you came out as in Did you know that it always existed or I didn't know there was stuff out there. Um but I definitely felt that once I got [00:17:00] involved with that, I definitely found it was a great support network and a great way to meet other people. Um, and a great way to get involved. And, um yeah, family, basically, sometimes so socialisation socialising and that kind of thing as well. Yeah. And what are the other ways that you socialise, if not just not just volunteering in the community? Uh, I guess going along to other community events which I may not have organised, [00:17:30] I got on to things like outtakes and, uh, looking forward to the big out games here in Washington next year. It should be fun, Uh, also just going out with mates or going to the movies or, uh, not necessarily always going to just stuff, but also going to just general public stuff as well. Um, I always love theatre and arts and entertainment. So I'd like to get out to those things as well. So and would those ways be the main ways that you'd meet people or other gay men or, [00:18:00] um, I Yeah, I guess I do meet them in that way. Uh, otherwise, it's through friends. Um, yeah. I haven't. I haven't. Yeah, I've made a lot of I've made lots of mates and stuff through that way. Uh, yeah, and could potentially meet a partner or something, but nothing at this said So. How would you say that? As a as a big, sweeping question [00:18:30] as a gay man in 2010. How do you feel that you're treated by others? Um, generally, generally generalising. Um, I probably say I treated really well, uh, fairly generally treated equally. Um, yeah, uh, maybe not, uh, complete equal [00:19:00] in some places, but generally speaking fairly well. So the, uh, this would you say there's still a fair bit of homophobia in society? What does it look like? Well, do you? I guess when you're in drag or even when you're not in drag, do you feel fear for your physical safety? Or is it Other forms that homophobia takes, or sometimes it's for my physical safety. Um, sometimes [00:19:30] it could possibly be more to work. Um, how do you mean? No, Just And people not giving you jobs or yeah or not, uh, being able to advance as far as you might like to or say, as you might be able to if you were heterosexual, possibly, or yeah. Or think having more [00:20:00] society pressures to, uh, yeah, it's hard to. It's hard to. It's hard to say. I mean, I think, Yeah, because a lot of I think it's a lot of people don't think about the if you're not queer, you don't think about queer community And, um, how a campaign or how a, uh, say a workplace, uh, activity or something. Uh, may come off as being very, [00:20:30] um, heterosexual. Hetero driven, I suppose. Hm hm. Yeah. Um, so doing a whole bunch of community work as well as being in, you know, quite regular contact with young people who are requiring support or coming out and all that kind of stuff. Um what? What are some things you'd like to change or have society change or change in society? [00:21:00] Oh, um, I think one thing we do would be good here. Would be, um, the being able to get married and civil union is a good state, but it's not. Yeah, not the same. Not the same. Um, being married is different. Yeah, it's still not quite in quality. Um, and I guess also things [00:21:30] around adoption and, uh, other areas we begin to change. And, um, yeah, more. And also, uh, also this gender identity stuff. Um, yeah, I think making things a bit more flexible. Yeah, law wise. And just, uh, and, you know, like forms and stuff or the toilets and stuff. They're very it's very [00:22:00] much the gender binary. And it'd be good to be able to open net a bit more with either, you know, uh, toilets or, uh or say having a instead of just having male and female having like, um male, female and, like, other or and then be able to put in what you identify as or, um or do it as a scale option from male to female. And you can put yourself somewhere on the line. Um, yeah. So some legal [00:22:30] things and some practical things that that could change. What about attitudes? Attitudes could change. I think it's so, um yeah, a lot of attitudes around, uh, sexuality and gender identity. And still in 2010 and assumptions that have made so generally about being straight Or, um, yeah, and [00:23:00] and gender expression and, um, stereotypes. Hm? Yeah. What are your some of your thoughts on stereotypes? Because I remember kind of coming across some. Someone was saying that you know that the really camp gay guy is just propping up the stereotype. And, you know, the really lesbian is just propping up the stereotype And yeah, because I must admit I do generally [00:23:30] fit well, quite well into a gay stereotype. Um, not because I don't know if it's so much of a choice. It's just part of It's just who I am. And it's But I also know there's lots of creep out there who don't fit into stir up and don't fit into the, uh, you know, play stereotype and the butch lesbian stereotype. And I don't think we should have to. And I think there's a lot of people out there who yeah, don't realise that sort of thing. So more about just being [00:24:00] able to express your gender. How you need to? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it's It's similar to race. Racial stereotyping. Um, yeah. I think that a lot as well. Um Mm. So what are your plans? Great plans for the future. You continue doing, um, you continue doing schools out or community work or working with queer youth? Um, I think in the [00:24:30] queer youth side of things, uh, one of my ideas would be to have a drop in youth centre, uh, where you could come 24 7 if they needed. You know, if they're out one night and, uh, didn't have a way of getting home or had been kicked out of home or, uh, we're just too out of it to make it home or or just needed somewhere to go, it would be a nice, safe space. And yeah, and yeah, we have hold meetings there and, [00:25:00] um, have, uh, access to facilities and all sorts of stuff. That was one of my dreams. My ideas, uh, for me? Yeah. I'm not sure continuous to work. I'm not sure. Continuous. My other passions. What are your other passions? Uh, costuming. and fashion has been one of my longest standing passions. I guess drag is another passion. Um, yeah. And I still really enjoy my life Modelling. [00:25:30] So, um, too many. Lots of lots of things on my plate. And do you see you see self leaving Wellington anytime soon because you grew up here, didn't you? I did go up here. Um, I like the idea of possibly being overseas at some point and particularly exploring europe. Uh, but yeah, Not sure. I take things one day at a time and see where I end up. And if someone was to, [00:26:00] um, want to get in touch with schools out either a parent or a young person how How would we find you? Well, how would we find schools out and and your other Was it LGBTI sandwiches or GL BT I sandwiches, Uh, for any of the groups I've mentioned, Um, the easiest Google. Yeah, well, the easiest. The most direct way to get in contact with me is through the work phone number, which is 0277639793. [00:26:30] That's 0277639793. you can also email me at queer underscore schools. Underscore out at hotmail dot com. Um, or just try Googling scores out. Um, for the, uh, GB LT sandwich, you can find us through Facebook. Awesome. Um, yeah. It's [00:27:00] an open group, so anyone can join. So how often do they meet? Uh, they'll be meeting fortnightly in town on a Friday evening. Um, nice way to wind down the week, so yeah. Thank you very much for having me on for with us. Oh, thank you.

IRN: 190
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089151
TITLE: Stephen Denekamp profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Stephen Denekamp
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; Auckland; Rainbow Touchstones; Rainbow Youth; Stephen Denekamp; coming out; depression; family; gay; health; mental health; profile; transcript online; youth
DATE: 1 May 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Stephen talks depression and coming out.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm Steven. Uh, I'm gay, and I grew up in Auckland with three younger sisters. Um, when I was, uh, young, we went to church quite a lot. About kind of the age. I was five. And so I was always kind of had a lot of those values instilled in me as I was growing up. Um, some of them are really, really good values like the whole thing around being fair and that stuff, but also, you know, I don't know how you take it on board, but they say that that age period is like the imprint period. And so there was just stuff around, [00:00:30] like, say, for example, if I If there was something gay on TV and my mother would do this shake of her head thing that, like, disapproving shake of heads that mothers do really well, um And so I was just picking up those kind of things, and I think I also picked up that there was a very, uh like there. There was right, and there was wrong there was that kind of whole church type thing. When your mother shook her head, Did she shake it at any other things? other than gay people. Probably. Um II I don't [00:01:00] remember specifically I. I just do specifically remember that when there was something queer related on the news that there'd be that kind of disapproving nod that I'd see. And so I picked up that, um, you know, this was something that wasn't good, even though I didn't understand it at all. It was just not something that was allowed or appropriate. And so how did you feel when you saw your mom do that nod? Um, at at the time, it didn't matter because I wasn't identifying as gay. [00:01:30] I wasn't like I hadn't even probably gone through puberty at that stage. Um, it was just taking it on board that that thing was bad. Which, of course, meant when I realised that I was gay. I already had this association that I was something that was bad or something that wasn't good. Um and so I mean, it was because it was It wasn't until I was 13, where I kind of put two and two together with this word. Gay meant, um well, it was something that I was and that it was a really negative [00:02:00] thing. And So this part of my this one part of myself as being gay, I really, really didn't like. I, like, hated it. Um, and I did what we always got told in school never to do, which was bottle up your feelings. Um and so I just kind of tried to ignore that part of myself, hoping that it would go away. And of course, it didn't. Because it was an integral part of who I was. Um and so I just grew to hate it more and more and more. And what began to happen, or is that at some point suddenly that hatred of that one thing turned into [00:02:30] a hatred of everything about myself. I thought that it was me that was bad and evil and disgusting, and and I felt that I shouldn't actually be here or shouldn't be alive. And and so we've got, like, several years at high school where I'm just feeling crap about who I am. Was was there any other kind of contributing factors that made you feel bad? Um, about the word gay or or about being gay? I think when you especially when you hit high school, there's, um there's the gay jokes that are sitting [00:03:00] around and and even my like, really group. My group of really supportive friends, um, you know, would laugh at gay jokes. Um, and it was It's It's just kind of around everywhere, I think. And you and you. Really? Well, I really start to notice that when I'm that age, because I'm really quite hypersensitive to it. And it's all coming up in those teenage years, So it just kind of all compounded. Yeah. Um and I mean, then it got to a point, like after so many years of hating myself where [00:03:30] everything kind of ramped up. And then I started to, um, have suicidal thoughts. I started to think dream, have dreams around dying or killing myself. And, um, it just got, like, really bad. I remember feeling, um, like, quite sick at the time, because I guess it's not a place where any human should really be. And and it was at that point that I finally told someone, um, it was a friend who I was a friend from school who I was just chatting with [00:04:00] online, and he just did the normal, you know, How's it going and rather than doing the normal, I'm fine. I'm good. Just kind of those. Whatever comments I said, I'm feeling crap. And he got really interested as to interested into as to what was wrong and started asking me all these questions. And for the first time, I finally told someone that, um I was feeling crap that I was depressed, Um, and also that I came out that I was gay and he was, like, really supportive, which is really cool. Um, and he really encouraged [00:04:30] me to go talk to some of my closest friends and also to go see the school guidance counsellor because he was really, really worried about, um, the fact that I was so depressed and having suicidal thoughts. Um And so I did. I wrote a letter to my closest friend because I just couldn't tell him. So I wrote it all, uh, like, fully out and handed it to him. And then, like after he'd read it, He's like, So do you feel better now? And I was just so relieved, like every I think every friend I started to tell it. It felt like a big weight coming off because it was just released like lots [00:05:00] of pent up emotion just going out. And then my small group of friends, they knew they were all very much pushed me to go see the guidance counsellor not because I was gay, but because they were really worried about my mental state at the time around being suicidal. So I went to the school guidance counsellor, and I remember I went into the office and sat down, and she's like, You know, why do you You know, what do you want to chat about? And I told her I'm depressed or I've got depression and she almost had this kind of OK, well, let's chat about it and then, you know, almost like I'll decide [00:05:30] whether you've got depression or not. I don't know if she's had someone come in and say, This is what I have And so we chat about, uh, talked about what was going on, and she's like, Yeah, I agree. You do do have depression, and I think for me, though, um, even as great as that was to be sharing that I was still getting worse. Um, I think it was almost like Macbeth syndrome. If I was down, like in so deep that to go back was just too much, too much effort, like I felt down for so long, like most people have, Most people have good days with the occasional bad day. [00:06:00] I had bad days with the occasional good day, and that was the difference. And, um, then at one point I remember doing a speech in English, and the topic was teenagers have never had it better. And because of how I was feeling, I turned it around and said, Teenagers have never had it worse and part way through my speech, I got a pair of scissors and I cut my arm in front of the class like it was actually written in the speech. I wrote it the night before. I don't know what I was thinking, like looking back on it now. I can't imagine how someone could do that, but I think it was [00:06:30] very much a cry for help. And as you can imagine, that freaked out the whole class. Um, when they started to realise that it wasn't just symbolic, that actually happened, Um, and that got me sent to the guidance counsellor again. Of course, um And so she took that being very, very serious. And, um So she, uh, with my parents they organised me to go see a psychiatrist to start really dealing with what was going on. And so I started talking with a psychiatrist and she gave me [00:07:00] She gave me a book around depression, Um, which is really cool, because it was the first time where I was reading about what depression was. And that's when I started to really kind of make that disconnect of that depression is not who I am. It's something that I'm experiencing. And so that was really helpful. And also because I was it was just like I was down so bad. It was just it was, too. It felt like too much work to get any better. So they put me on antidepressants, which I was on for about six months to a year. And what they did is they just picked me [00:07:30] up enough so that I actually wanted to try because to get better from where I was was felt like a lot of work. Um, and as part of that process was also about finally coming out to my parents um So I told Mom and Dad actually, with the psychiatrist. I was so freaked out like it was the most nervous thing I've It was nerve wracking thing I've ever done. And it was also a relief because there's I mean, the whole thing was this built up secret that I had, um and I just kind of let that go right then and [00:08:00] there, and Mum and Dad were Well, Mum was not too happy about it, because I think it really challenged a lot of her beliefs as well. Um, they both said like we are, so we still love you. Um, but there was still there, but we don't want you to be gay type of atmosphere. I mean, my dad was more collective because he's a doctor, so I guess he kind of understood the mental health side of things. Um, but at least it was it was out at that point. Um, and also, by that point, the entire school knew, like [00:08:30] everyone had just I. I don't quite know how it came out, but after that incident, like it just rumours went and then and then and I at that point, I just wasn't going to deny it. I was just like someone asked me. I just say yes. And so the whole school found out like any good school gossip. And the great thing at my school was that that didn't change anything. Like everyone was still friends. Like I didn't have any of that disconnecting friends like there was nothing. Nothing externally, bad happened. Really. It was just the whole negative self talk I had and the beating myself up. That was the main [00:09:00] issue. Um, and I suppose next was that my sister is finding out. So one of my sisters was at the same high school I was at at the time, so she just found out through the grapevine, and that was cool. Um, then another sister who's, uh, about five years younger than me. I told her, um and she was just, like, so like that. That was her reaction was just like, Oh, OK, yeah. Mhm. What else like it? It was such a non issue. And then I told my younger sister, um, who's seven years younger than me, and we've quite [00:09:30] a It's a really cute relationship because I'm actually quite the big brother to her, and she's my little sister. And I told her, and she, um and I'm trying to remember back to what she said, but it was something like she was like, Oh, that's a shame, because she really quite liked the guy that I was dating at the time. And of course, that meant that he was gay, so he was off limits. So, yeah, that was, um that was really cool. So it was really, really supportive. And And what kind of [00:10:00] happened for me after that is I was gradually getting back to a normal level, like gradually coming out of depression. And and that's just like an interesting journey in itself. I know my parents had to have their own journey, um, around what being gay was and all that stuff. Um, And for me, I just I I got really into doing any sort of personal development work. Um, so obviously I did a lot with reading around depression and stuff. Um, I got involved in Rambo youth. I went along to some of their support groups, which is really cool to be chatting with people [00:10:30] who had had similar experiences or completely different experiences um, and did volunteer work by where I went into schools and shared my story. And to me, actually, like, as wonderful as that was for the work that it was doing for the community, really, It was actually healing myself. Every time. I would like, sit in front of a class and share my story. There'd be healing going on. And I remember when I first shared it, the person who was kind of because we we always had, like, co runners like, who was running it with me afterwards? She said, You know, it would be cool if you could kind of be a bit happy when [00:11:00] you share your story. Because apparently it came across very, very depressed, which was great, but it it really got like, every time I shared it, Um, I guess I saw it from a different perspective and how it allowed me to grow and kind of the the good side of it, which there kind of is with everything. And so that raised me up again. And I mean, everything from my life since then has just been about, I guess, changing how I see the world to the point where I am now where, [00:11:30] um, like I get that I get to choose how I feel, And so depression just isn't even on the radar anymore. When you say you get to choose how you feel, how how do you do that? Well, it's my belief that we all we all choose, uh, what we do So to me, if I was to do depression now, it would be I would have to do depression like it used to be. That depression is something I First it was depression is me. Then it was. Depression is something I have [00:12:00] or I'm experiencing. And now it's like, Well, depression is something you do like. There would be a serious like if I wanted to be feel bad. I know I would have to hold myself a certain way. I'd have to tell myself certain things in my in my, um, head and so also to choose how I want to feel. It's just a matter of noticing my thoughts and and you know it. And it changed from doing really simple things, like I don't know where it was. I read it or I heard it but like to flirt with yourself in the mirror like I remember reading it at the time, saying you'll [00:12:30] feel silly and I remember doing it and thinking This is really silly, like simple things like looking yourself in the eye and telling you you love yourself. So I started doing that and just being silly, like just silly, flirty stuff in the in the mirror when it's just yourself. Um, and it felt really weird. Enforced to the point. Now where if I look in the mirror, that's my natural reaction. Whereas a lot of people, they look in the mirror and their first reaction is, Oh, look how whatever you're looking or, um or I hate you or stuff like that, like people have so [00:13:00] many negative conversations in their head the whole time. And I remember with all the stuff that I was doing, I remember one time feeling, God, I've been so happy the last few weeks and then I thought back, Oh, that's because the voice in my head has shut up or when it's talking, it's coming in with positive things, and at the point I'm at the point now, having practised that where when something negative does come up. I just kind of ask a different question and flip it around. Um, so it it can never get to where it was before. That obviously takes a lot of [00:13:30] kind of personal insight. Um, and energy, I guess, doesn't it? Yeah, it does. I mean, I think it takes a lot of I mean, it can take a lot of energy to have to actually look at yourself. Um, but for me, it's also been a really fun journey and really eye opening and kind of the point of life. Really, if I was going to get all deep and spiritual about it, Hm? So to you, what is the point of life? Um, the the point of life [00:14:00] is to kind of choose to be the next highest version of that vision that you have about yourself, like people have a vision of what they're like. Their highest version of them is, and it's about being the next level of that. And then once you're at the next level of that so that you really experience life and, uh, doing whatever you feel you need to do. And that would pretty much be it. And having fun along [00:14:30] the way. So how does that play out in a day to day sense? Um, in a day to day sense, I think for me, the big thing is that I'm just so relaxed with with life now, like stuff just doesn't bother me. And it's like, Yeah, I'll have my you know, I, I still have emotions. Um, so I still have the good stuff and the bad stuff. Um, but it's in terms of choosing to be who I want to be, um, for me at the moment, it's about finding what I'm really passionate about [00:15:00] and doing that and knowing that if I'm doing stuff, I'm not really passionate about that. I'm choosing to do that. And I know it's not going to give me the huge sense of fulfilment that I'm after, which is cool as long as I'm aware of that. Rather than just blindly going through and like sitting in front of the TV for five hours, not realising that I'm sitting in front of the TV for five hours. Yeah. Can you talk to me about how, um when you were visiting schools, how the students reacted to you? [00:15:30] Yeah. Doing workshops in high schools is one of the most awesome things I've done. Um, the students, um, you get various various degrees of classes, some who are really well behaved, and others who were kind of giggling and everything. But the thing for them is they they really liked it because they were like, it was kind of like, I can't believe we're actually talking about this stuff, like, because this is maybe it's less so now. But it was It was stuff that you just didn't get talked about in school, like being gay. Um, and all the stuff that [00:16:00] kind of comes with that. And so here we're talking about it, and they have the had the opportunity to ask the presenters and ask me any questions they wanted. And it could be really personal questions. It could just be general factual information. Um, and and it was just like a really cool thing to do. And I think most young people, as long as you know, if you're just sharing your stories and you're hearing what they think, then that's like a really great way to learn what were some of the most [00:16:30] difficult questions. You know, I don't know if there are really any difficult students from questions they were. The ones I loved were the ones that really made me think, which were more when they'd asked me how I felt about something, and I'd have to go and actually go away and go, Oh, how did I feel about that? And then come up with a response, which is great for me. Um, when you got questions about like because being you'll get questions about sex and about first boyfriends and stuff and they were just great because you just say, Well, maybe you can ask your health teacher about those questions next time you learn about sex, Ed. Um, [00:17:00] so I guess the only difficult if there had to be something that was difficult is when someone would challenge you with a very a a view of like, Well, don't you think it's wrong to be like this? Or what about adopting that or my religion says this, But none of them were hard because all I had to do was say, Well, this is how I feel about it. Um, and that's me. So there was no ever dictating this is how it is it was just sharing everyone sharing kind of their own view. Just going way, way back [00:17:30] to, um when you were 13, I and I'm just wondering, do you think, um, the depression came on because of external influences like people saying, this is this is wrong, Or was it more internal? And if it was internal, um, where did it come from? In terms of depression? My, my view around depression ultimately now is that it's always internal. It's always from the thoughts we tell ourselves. [00:18:00] However, having said that, um, we all, uh, the makeup of what we've kind of grown up. As so I somehow took on board when I was younger. I like the internalisation of things. So if there was stuff that was negative, I would take it inside. And and that's where all the negative came came stuff came from. So then first I've like, we've got several things. First, I'm taking negative stuff inside. And then when I hear that when I'm growing up, learning that it's wrong to be gay when I kind of put two and two together, [00:18:30] it was just like my natural reaction was to oh, well, I'm this negative thing and then just go and be negative about it. Um, so it's easy. Sometimes it's an easy solution to say that it's it's all it's because of this reason why I I ended up depressed. But for me it was because I had all those negative conversations with myself. And that's not about, um, it's not about blame or anything, but the cool The cool thing with it is that it's about responsibility. If that If I'm feeling [00:19:00] this way because of all my negative talk about myself, then that means I could also feel good about whatever talk I tell myself. So it gives you it gives it, like, gives you your personal power. Back of saying I can now choose to have a different conversation with myself and therefore be happy. And that doesn't ignore the fact that there's external factors when we're growing up because that's there. It's putting the most responsibility and the most power, most empowering part of it, with yourself and back on you and back [00:19:30] on who you are, because then you can actually do something about it. Can you describe how your parents reacted to you coming out and also the Depression. Um, my parents reaction to coming out there were, like, a few things at the first. I think there was actually a bit of almost a bit of relief and that because before the end that we'd been going through this Depression thing and I had had EEG readouts and, like, scans and stuff to find out what was wrong with our son. And when they found out it was because I was gay, it was like, Oh, OK, so it's not like he's got [00:20:00] some mental, blah, blah, blah, whatever it was, you know, just all around this. But then, of course, as soon as that happened, it brought up their own stuff because we did like, especially when I was really young. We were quite into the church. Um, and I don't know much about my parents kind of history around that. But I know for my mom, it was really challenging like we had. There was kind of this awkwardness around it where I remember once she told me she felt that I was rejecting women and like so, she always had a lot of personal [00:20:30] stuff to to deal with it. My dad was very, I don't know. He was almost very stoic about the whole thing. And he'd like I remember once he asked, he offered to He said, Well, look, I could buy you some porn If you'd like, I could buy. I'll get ones that have girls and guys like to. I don't know, See if I could explore which way I wanted to to go. But at first it was really negative, like and, um, I would I'd be very careful like I wouldn't talk about any of my gay friends. Um, and I'd be very careful about bringing anyone [00:21:00] over. And there was always this tension and what was really interesting is, as I guess, my parents went through their own journey. Um, the tension actually became all mine in the end, like we are to the point where my mom was like, Oh, are you seeing anyone? And I'd almost freak out going Oh, do I Do I say something now? Because now they've I've got got to the point where they've obviously dealt with whatever they need to deal with. And now I need to deal with. Actually, I can be really open and relax with my parents because they're now very accepting of of that part. [00:21:30] Um and I think what my mom put it as later on was that, like when I asked her this was part way through. I guess their journey was, you know, like, Well, how do you feel about me being gay? And she said, Well, you know, you you don't end up with everything you you kind of want from your kids originally like which was a huge movement from before where it was really bad. It was just like, Oh, it was just almost more of a like disappointment. And I think now it's just I haven't actually asked her. But I think now it's just a Non-issue because like my partner is treated [00:22:00] as just part of the family and, like, he's kind of expected to show up if we have a family thing now. So yeah, I. I think that parents have When you come out, they they do go on their own coming out journey just as much as the person who's coming out. What are your thoughts, Um, in more general terms about, um, kind of mental health issues and lesbian and gay queer communities. I think to me, it just seems so obvious that why there'd be lots of mental [00:22:30] health issues in the in the queer community. I mean, if you're looking at any community that is marginalised, um and that goes from the negative stuff that gets said about I mean, you look at when the Civil Union Bill came out and you had all the stuff about both camps arguing, which is great. But if you were a 13 year old kid going through issues that just kind of adds to it, um that you know what I mean It it just stands to reason that there's going to be mental health issues because anyone who's, um, gone under pressure or gets gets [00:23:00] put down that's going to add to it, assuming depending on their mind state, though as well. Because, I, I have friends who would have grown up and have the most amazing mental like, um, like almost, uh, what do you call it, A psychology of excellence, like they're really just got it. And they've had, like, the same growing up as everyone else, Pretty much so. It depends. I guess how you've you've grown up to take that on board. But if you're in a group that is gets marginalised, um, and gets [00:23:30] put down where there aren't all the strong role models on TV are certainly not than they used to be. Then where are you gonna look for strength? Um, and unless you have somebody that's there to show you how to do that or you've learned how to do it yourself, which will again be from someone else when you're younger showing you how to do that, then I would guess there's a much higher probability of heading into mental health issues. So what do [00:24:00] you think are some ways that, um, we as a community or as individuals can help other people? I think the best thing that anyone can do for helping other people is by allowing them to be who they are. Um, and that's that's like with everything in life. Like if you're the more we allow people just to be who they are, regardless of that is, the more it's just common knowledge that I'll be accepted for who I am anyway. [00:24:30] Um, and that's not just around the queer community. That's around everything, you know. If little Johnny wants to go and play whatever sport, then awesome. That's great if he wants to go do something else and that's cool as well. Um, and I think as individuals, it's also our responsibility to to, like, shine our own, our own light. Like I know in New Zealand, there's a bit of the whole tall poppy syndrome thing, but for me, it's that the more you shine your own light [00:25:00] and I don't mean showing off, I just mean fulfilling who you are. Uh, you you give permission for other people to do the same thing, and it's just about having that supportive environment to do it in. That's gonna make a difference. Do you think, uh, depression will ever come back and visit you? Um, depression will never be coming back and visiting me because I know I know I know who I am, like I'm a different like a completely different person now to who I was. Then there's still me, [00:25:30] Um, but there's just none of that that negative self talk like and I know when I've had, like, really like really bad days and I'll feel crap, but I know that's just me feeling crap that's not going to lead to something else. Whereas when I was actually getting better initially there was stuff like that. Like I I'd have a bad day and I I could feel myself like myself being pulled back down again. Um, whereas now it's just like I know that I can't It's just doesn't go there. It's it's not. It's not a part of who I am anymore.

IRN: 146
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/ivan_yeo_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003858
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089152
TITLE: Ivan Yeo profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ivan Yeo
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; Auckland; Ivan Yeo; Malaysia; Rainbow Touchstones; depression; gay; health; mental health; transcript online
DATE: 2 May 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Ivan talks about growing up gay in Malaysia.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm Ivan. Um, and I'm from, um, Malaysia. Um, been here in New Zealand, Uh, about 10 years. Um, and I am Chinese, So basically, I'm I'm I'm Chinese, but, um, grew up in Malaysia, and that was back in probably early eighties. Um, when I found out that I'm gay and it really [00:00:30] has a huge impact on how I view myself, um, growing up in a Muslim country and also a very traditional Chinese family. Um, I think the biggest thing for me, um, was finding out who I am. Uh, there was this really intense fear of letting people know who you are because then, you know, like as a society, you wonder [00:01:00] how it would be, uh, once you're being and not being included as a part of the society. And I think the biggest fear I have was, uh, not sure how my future is going to be like when I grow out and when there's time when I need to fulfil my family obligations. Such as getting married, um, and having Children. Um, especially when [00:01:30] I was in a family where I'm the only single, Uh, I mean, like, single as the only son in the family and I have three older sisters. So that notion of fulfilling, um, my obligation as a son was strongly held, Not necessarily in my family, but, um, in how the society has have portrayed as a male [00:02:00] characters in in the context of society, from TV from newspaper. And I never asked my parents, you know, like, was it my They are my expectations that I will need to fill out that kind of role because we never discuss about it. So it was sort of like my assumptions that that is what my parents would want me to do, especially when I was a teenager. And, you know, people start asking you, do you [00:02:30] have a girlfriend? And then you became an adult And people ask you, when are you going to get married? And when you say you don't have a girlfriend and people still look at you like, oh, what's wrong with you, you know, and then sort of teasing you about Oh, So do you want me to introduce you a girlfriend? So especially when you have all the extended family that living in a similar area. So you do, uh, catch up with [00:03:00] them from time to time. And that always, you know, like the eventual conversation that will came out and ask you, When are you going to find a girlfriend? And that really stirred me because it just, you know, like, keep reminding myself what sort of art that I against with and, um and also to know who I can talk to. Uh, even though I told my sisters about my sexual orientation [00:03:30] when I was about 16 or 17, But they seems to be believe that it is just a phase. It will pass, um, after a while, so it never get fully acknowledged, as that will be my life. And when you only see what it is being offered in a society, you really don't know what else is out there. And that [00:04:00] was the biggest challenge. So when at what age did you realise that you might mean from the very early age? Um, but I think that this more subconsciously I mean, like, uh, during the the age six or seven, I knew I always like to be close to men than women and also know that when I was about eight [00:04:30] or nine, I really like watching um, TV that have very strong male characters, like the mainland IP show all that and I really like it. And now when I look back, I know why I like it so much. But at the time, I also really attract attracted to the physical male body, the muscularity and all that. Um, So I knew I was different [00:05:00] from a very early age. And when you were around that age, can you recall anything that was being said by people around you about, um, gays and lesbians? No, not so much. But somehow in the society, you still get that kind of tease about, you know, like, um, either you being too feminine or uh too subtle remark make it seems to be [00:05:30] unacceptable for any male to be too close to another man or for me. I was really tiny and skinny, so and growing up with three sisters that probably made my behaviour seems to be a little bit permanent. Uh, and I was getting tea from that from the very early childhood. Um, and also the questions being asked about, You know, [00:06:00] like, why I didn't behave like a normal man. I not too sure what normal man is, but I also not very interested on what the society perceives men as good at, like the sport. I hate sport, but the reason why I hate sport was because I think I was being teased by school teacher and my peer about how lousy I was, Um, and certain things that I'm good at, such as drawing, dancing, [00:06:30] singing, and so people sort of comparing me as how a guy should be. Um, and suddenly I did not live up to expectation as a man in, In in the Malaysian Society. Uh, so you get a feeling like, you know, you need to be tough, you need to be mature. And it's my job to protect a female from a very young age, [00:07:00] my father, because he's away. And he always told me I need to look after my mom and my sisters even though I was younger. I don't know how that is possible, but it always seems to be my responsibility to ensure that they are OK. Hm. Can you recall at that age, any other Children or any other young adults that could have been gay and lesbian? Uh, Yes, I remember my uncle, [00:07:30] which is my mother's brother. Older brother. He is a womaniser. And one time he brought this female to our place. Um, I remember they They want to use my mother's room. Um, do you know what they wanted to do? And so I remember my mom having a conversation with her friend and saying that that woman doesn't look like a woman. [00:08:00] Um, and I also remember when I was about the same age. My mom has a hair salon, so she always have friends come over. And this, uh, woman who very, uh, very tomboyish dressing and all that. And every time when they left, they sort of would say something behind her and say, you know, like, Oh, she's [00:08:30] bringing another woman again to know what they are to, uh, and making a casual remark about, um, you know, like, she is doing another woman again. Um, but in in Malaysia, because we have this, uh, male dressing up as female and also, uh, working on the bad street. So again, you hear all that conversation [00:09:00] popping out from now and there about so and so, uh, go to this street and visit all the transgender, um, and paying them money just to feel them and see whether it's real or not again, those sort of like joke or conversation came out as when I get older. Um, because my mom knew a lot of people. Uh, and the hair salons always been like a small social gathering that reflect on the the [00:09:30] the wider society and the people that my moms hang around. You hear all this, uh, interesting conversations floating around, you know, in Malaysian culture, are there Are there specific words for gay lesbian transgender? Um, yeah, in Malay word they call it means that, uh, equivalent to the word CC. But it has this very negative connotation, [00:10:00] Like, you are not a man, but, uh, act like a woman. Um, and you are the lowest, uh, of the societies. So people use that word, then tease me as well. So it was really hurtful. Word like the word or in Chinese called basically means a little white face. That means it's like a a toy boy. [00:10:30] Um, but again, it actually have much cynicism about the words means that, you know, like you couldn't live out as a man in a society and fulfilling your obligations to be, um, the the the sole responsibility of the male character in the family is talking about someone who, uh, ask for money from a female. Um, so again, it's really hurtful [00:11:00] word. Um, yeah. So in being teased, what happened? How did you cope with that? Um, I. I wasn't happy. I mean, like, I scared to go to school because I knew how my day is going to end out. It's going to be a lot of teasing and being pushed around. Um, and also I don't like to go out [00:11:30] with friends or even if I show a little bit of anger or, um or having fight with my sisters, they will. They will call me those words as well. So basically it taught me not to make people outset, because if people said they're going to call me names, it's really helpful. So II I became, um, really cautious and and try to please everybody [00:12:00] so that I wouldn't be teased and even trying to add a little bit more mature, uh, and trying to hide a certain behaviour that has been pointed out by other people um, so that they wouldn't see that I am What? A so called and so I constantly modifying my behaviour so that I can match what other people expected as a male [00:12:30] character in the society. And that was really hard because you're constantly trying to please your father or your sisters or your maid and you forget about who you truly are as a person. And did that work? No, of course it never worked. Because I think, um, coming to New Zealand, [00:13:00] I really able to embrace myself because if people want to talk about, uh, feminine side I, I do have my very sensitive and very feminine side. But I also have a very male orientated, uh, character, which now I able to recognise I wouldn't want to put it into context because it's not about sexist. But what I'm saying is, um, able to recognise that I have a so called [00:13:30] balance. I'm very, uh I'm very sensitive. I'm very emotional, and I and also very empathetic as well. So I recognise that as a gift now, still see me as something um made me became a weak person. But on the other hand, I also know that I'm very driven. I'm very goal oriented. And what I mean is, I also, uh, able to do [00:14:00] a lot of, uh, handyman work. Um, I. I like getting myself busy with, uh, technology or even the homemade, um, cabinet and all that. Um and so I able to embrace both sides. Um, and having both, um, as a balance in my life, Yeah. If you had stayed in Malaysia, could you have come out as a gay person? No way. [00:14:30] Um, really I, I really do not know what to do. But having said that, the society also grow and develop at the same time. I mean, like, I heard from people saying that now there's more, um, like, gay sauna in Malaysia as well. And there's a bar, um, that you can meet other gay people in Internet site, but it's still very hidden, so I might able to go to those places [00:15:00] yet I would never be able to review as who I am as Ivan to other people. I will be always the guy who's 30 something, and he have a girlfriend and not married and everybody talking behind my back. I mean, here everybody know I'm gay and no one see as an issue. And they just see Ivan as Ivan. Um, and I also able to live the life that [00:15:30] I want, which is having a partner, Um, and also able to recognise my own unique identity and able to share with friends and people who really cared about me. And I think the most important thing is now my family. Now I'm my sexual orientation, and they also embrace it. And also, they like my partner, Um II. I think the harder things for any [00:16:00] a hidden secret is you cannot be honest with people you love, and you cannot share the joy and and and the hard shape when you have in your life. I mean, um, when I broke up with my previous partner, I was able to call home and cry and told my mom why life is so hard and all that. That was great, because when I first broke out with my first boyfriend, I couldn't tell anyone. [00:16:30] So I have to hide my emotion because family to pick out that you know, like why you look so sad And but you cannot say I just broke up with my first boyfriend. But at least at that time, I just brought up with my ex partner. I was able to call my mom and tell my mom relationship is hard, Um, and also told my mom that, you know, like, uh, really [00:17:00] questions about, you know, like, am I really that ugly or, you know, like, am I really not worth any love and also able to talk to my sister? So that was amazing. Like even now, every time when I call my mom and my sisters, they will always ask us. So how is Jerry? Uh, they will be interested to find out what Jerry is doing. What am I doing? What we both are doing. So it's a great feeling when you finally feel that you can really [00:17:30] felt like being part of the family instead of always having a second thought about you can only share certain part of your life, but not the whole of your life. Um, can we just go back a wee bit to like when you were growing up in Malaysia and you were saying that you were you were being teased? How did that progress? What What kind of how did you get through those feelings? And, um, how did you meet your first boyfriend? [00:18:00] Um, I really have to say, I hate school so much. My result drops really badly as I growing, uh, older because I just don't like school. I try to find excuses not to go to school for me. I would try even to hide myself and make myself as invisible as possible. So I'm [00:18:30] not going to be picked on. I'm not going to be teased about, and no one is going to look at me. Uh, it works. And I have to say, if I think back of my school years, I can only have some very vague memories. Um, but a lot of things like people say that, you know, like they have friends who grew up together and all that I never had and how I met my very first boyfriend was when I went to, [00:19:00] uh, the north part of Malaysia because of my father. Um, I was able to meet a group of friends who really get along very well, and I have this friend who is one of the closest and altogether we have like six people as a group, and he always seems very moody. And he always seems angry at [00:19:30] me. Sometimes he was really close to me, but I have to say I have a crush on him and I do not know how to tell him. But I knew. He always seems to be really care about me and also sometimes can just flick around and totally annoy me, which I do not know what I have done. After about a year and a half, my father decided to move us back to [00:20:00] my hometown, which is south of Malaysia and during the holiday break, Um, because I miss him so much. So I say I wanted to go and visit him, but, um but I told people that I want to visit the girlfriend, but he was the main reason. So I went over and he really want me to stay with him and we both staying together. And there was a late night and we start having [00:20:30] these conversations and he sort of told, asked me, I remember asked me, um, if you have a secret, really big secret and you want to share with someone, what would you do? I said I would just tell the person I mean, like, you know, just being really honest and tell the other person that you know how you feel. And then I also start saying that I have a secret as well. So we just start having this game and [00:21:00] somehow we both able to acknowledge that we have feeling for for each other for some time. And, um, that was my first love. And that was, like, the best day ever to able to find someone that, you know, like you both have a mutual feeling. But at the same time, it was really hard because we have to be really secretive, [00:21:30] and And when you have such a mixed emotion and with such a young age, I still don't know how to cope with, you know, leaving the place and unable to see him again and don't know where am I going to see him again? All that. So there was a really hard time. Yeah, but, um, I'm very grateful that I had that experience because, um, that just really affirm [00:22:00] of what I really want in my life, which is being true to myself and able to find someone who loves me and will be able to share that mutual love. What age were you then? I was only 16. Um, and yeah, there was, like, 21 years ago, so you can figure out how I am. Um, yeah, but that is really amazing. And also [00:22:30] able to find out that actually, he had the same feeling towards me. Um, but the other things, as I mentioned before, you can share that with your friends. I remember. I told one of my very close, uh, schoolmates, um, at school when I came back, and her first reaction is and and I was really sad and because I thought she was my best friend and she sort of told me that, you know, like, all you pass is the [00:23:00] face and I was really devastated. And again, you know, like all these little small things just really affirm about what you already believe, which is you're not going to be able to live the life that you want. Were you having, um, conflict within yourself in terms of I don't want to be gay Or were you quite happy being gay? But it was just a society that didn't particularly like that. These are very good questions because [00:23:30] the fact is, I know I am gay, and I also know that I have no interest at all to a female. My, my friends, now sort of asking me, you know, like if I can have sex with a female and a very ugly elephant man, who would I pick? I say the very ugly ele elephant man, and they sort of say that they haven't met any gay people as in such an extreme. [00:24:00] I also tell people, if I if I having sex with a female, I would see myself as a lesbian. What that means is, you know, I really have No, um, I really have never been able to see female as an opposite sex, and I think for some people, it might be really hard to understand. But sometimes when you have such a strong feeling about who you are, of course you wouldn't be able to make. I mean, [00:24:30] I make myself to sleep with another female, so I'm very sure and very sure that I'm I only interested, um, in men and in a relationship and also the only problem that I see was the society wasn't able and not ready to accept that. And that taught me a lot of great deal of humanity, because I think if it's not, um, [00:25:00] it's not breaking the law of the society. Any love is acceptable. Um, and even just go down to, uh, racial tension as well. Um, in the end of the day, whether you bisexual, homosexual or straight so called, um, love is equal. When you love someone, you want to be with someone, everybody [00:25:30] should have the right to do. So, um, so I was really lucky that I came to New Zealand and New Zealand have the law that recognise same sex relationship. And I'm really grateful, especially from someone coming from a Muslim country. Um, and able to have the same rights is amazing in Malaysia at the time. Were there laws against homosexuality? [00:26:00] Yes. Um, if anyone's being found out as, um, having male relationship will be punished. Um, that actually happened at least 20 years ago when the deputy of Prime Minister is being accused of having same sex relationship with someone, and he was being sentenced to jail. Um, and there is just one [00:26:30] of the example. So it is against the law of a Muslim country and, um, in Malaysia as well. Um, having said that, my experience I knew there were a lot of hidden, um, scenes. Um, because I was one of them. How people were having unsafe sex and meeting in places where, um unsafe as [00:27:00] well. And I really felt for people who have to go through that because I was in that kind of environment to, um And you know, sometimes when you do things just because of the physical needs and after you fulfil your need and then you start thinking about what you're doing, it kind of quite scary, too, because quite often I might put myself [00:27:30] in danger that, you know, like, um, I would not want to, but because I felt I don't have that kind of, um, opportunity, um, as being is equal in what society has providing. So you sort of have to do everything under under the ground so that you will not get caught and so forth. Um, so how did that relationship with your first boyfriend [00:28:00] go? You were really bad because I think we both felt the same. Like having such a strong feeling in the age of 16. And, um, the the distance between me and him is almost like Auckland and Christchurch, Um, in New Zealand, so we can only communicate through letters and letters is not safe. Especially what you put in on [00:28:30] the on the piece of paper. So his sister discovers his letters. And then in the end, we have to call off the relationship because the sister told her mom and we both were really devastated because I know I was feeling very depressed. I I miss him so much. I was still studying school. My parents do not want me to move back to, uh, I, which is the south [00:29:00] of the northern part of Malaysia. And they sort of don't understand why I want to move there. And he cannot leave the family because he's the oldest of the three Children. So he has the obligation to look after his father father business. Um, so in the end, we just have to break it off. Um, and that also made me believe at the time, you know, like like I really wanted, [00:29:30] but also knowing that that's not going to happen. So I really appreciate what I have now. I mean, like, what I have now is impossible. I never thought that I could ever have the life that I dream of, uh, years ago, and I think I am truly blessed. Um, regardless of what kind of hardship I went through. But in the end, [00:30:00] I still think it's worth it. So around that age, did you have any idea that there were different ways of living in different countries? Um, not really. I mean, like, we we sort of getting a news in certain stages, like seeing how oversea or Europeans start recognising same sex relationship. For me, I was just like, this is this is impossible how how that can be. [00:30:30] And of course, because the news also being announced from, um from Malaysia and Singapore and all that and again, even when people were talking about that seems to be something really disgusting. And, you know, like, um, unbelievable. How can someone given those people those rights? Um, so it was just sounds like an impossible or something [00:31:00] that, you know, like because they will also talk about how, uh, oppositions sort of really angry about the proposed legislation or something. So you thought that will never go ahead as well. I can't remember the very first country who actually have the legislations passed through. But I was just so amazed. And on the same token, I know that that is only happening in certain part of the country. [00:31:30] And that's when I start thinking about leaving Malaysia. And also probably if I can find a way to go to the country, I might be able to do that. But I also do not know how to do it, that I didn't know that you can, um, get so called permanent resident and become citizenship and all that. Um so again, all that was just like [00:32:00] a dream. And during that time, there's no such a thing called Internet. So it's not like now you can just google it and find out a heaps of information, how to get to where you want it. And I don't have that circle of friends who has been overseas, um, and was able to get permanency overseas as well. So, um yeah, for me, it's still like a dream at the time. Hm. But there [00:32:30] is a point where that dream becomes reality and you came to New Zealand and what were your thoughts? I mean, suddenly you've got this whole kind of gay lesbian culture just actually out in the open. Or I honestly think when you suddenly have so much freedom, the first thing you do is you really abuse your freedom. So, I, I totally put myself out there. [00:33:00] I mean, like, I just like, you know, from nothing to suddenly you can have the the sweet you like. You want to make sure that you have all of them, you know, like because you don't know when you're going to get hungry again or you're not going to have the opportunity opportunity to eat a sweet again. So that was really out of control. I mean, like, I basically just do anything that I could, um, And again, that was a really learning curve, because then [00:33:30] I learned to know that I have to have the balance. Um, I do do a lot of stupid things or fun things at that time. Um, but I also very much wanting to stay in New Zealand, and what really helped me through was my study because, um, you know the the paper that I was doing, including sociology, and, um, reading [00:34:00] about the background of how New Zealand come to accept gay relationship and all that. Uh So I knew I found a place where I can finally call home and finally feel like I could be equally being, um, given and providing the same rights as everybody else. Um, and that was a relief [00:34:30] and an amazing feeling that finally I don't have to carry the weight of my life of um, from now on, I can finally just let it go and put it down. Um, and yeah, that was truly the most amazing feeling that anyone could have. Hm. And that that that also made me really appreciate New Zealand as well. And [00:35:00] seeing how, um, by providing the same rights, people able to grow and learn and then equally contribute to the society, still feel that they have to constantly hide themselves because, I mean, like, when I was in Malaysia, even as an adult, I still try to minimising my behaviour and still trying to just just able to go by [00:35:30] and and and not thinking about, um what else I can do. Uh, where is my potential? Um, where is right now? I would ask myself, you know, like what else I want to do, Uh, where where is my potential? I still want to grow. I still want to do more. Whereas before, I was just still waiting for the time. Um, when Finally, Finally, everything's finished. Hm? [00:36:00] Can you talk a wee bit about, uh, I'm interested in the, um, ideas of, um, being gay and whether it's, you know, just gay sex or whether it's, uh, a gay lifestyle living with partners in Malaysia. Did you have any kind of concept that you could actually live a completely gay life? Or was it very much just, you know, kind of sex acts? Um, I think is I. I talked about this before, Um, [00:36:30] when I was in school, and, uh, the the school teacher asked everybody what you want to be when you grow out. My answer was actually become a housewife, but I could not tell that I knew people is going to tease me about it, so I just make up something. Can't remember what I say. Um but that that is the nature nature instinct of what I want, which is a life where I have a husband and where [00:37:00] I can, um, have Children, Uh, where I can, um, be in love and equally share my love with someone at the age. Of course, you didn't think about sex, but as you grow older, as as your physical change and hormonal change and all that, I start having the the craving of, you know, like, wanted intimate relationship with men. [00:37:30] Um, and I. I think that's a very natural human instinct as well. The only differences is the person that I thinking about is male instead of female. Um, the curiosity that I have is how it felt like being kissed by a man, how it felt like being whole by a man and how it felt like being in love in a relationship with a man. Oh, I saw all [00:38:00] three of my sisters go through relationship with their boyfriend and I envy so much, you know, you see them getting married, dressed out, having that pre I post relationship. So, of course not just sex is what I so called lifestyle is a having a convenient where you know, if you create a safe heaven when you can go home and relax [00:38:30] and be yourself with the person that you love and care the most, um, and create the life that you want, Um, and that really speak about, um, me and my partner. Sometimes I have a very bad day at work or something. Get me down. But I know this person is waiting for me at home when I come home. Um, that gave me the safe feeling that [00:39:00] I needed. And so that that is how would I describe about everything? So do you think you'll ever go back and live in Malaysia? In no way, I. I thought about that. And, um, I was very clear with my parents as well. I. I told my parents, Look, if I'm here with Jerry, our relationship is to recognise anything happen. We [00:39:30] have the right, um, to whatever that I need to be done. But if we go back to Malaysia, our relationship will not be recognised. Um, so it doesn't mean a thing, um, for our relationship And if anything happen and that will not be having the same, um, mechanism that we can sort out our each other, uh, whatever that need to happen during that time. [00:40:00] So I was very clear with my families. And, um, one thing is one of my sister's son just recently came out as well and say that you know that he's gay, and my sister first thing she asked me was, you know, like what you reckon I say First, I want you to know it's not face. It is what it is. Uh, forget about whatever he could change, love him and treat him equally as [00:40:30] your another son. And I also told my sister, Look, you know, like the best is when we both able financially to get him to oversee and let him have the same opportunity. And I was really grateful that my sister was able to accept that immediately and also able to recognise that it is all right. Um, and probably it will be a little bit [00:41:00] difficult if he's still in Malaysia. So we will try to find a way that able to let him being educated in the overseas country and able to do what I'm doing now. Um, so again, even my sister also recognise that, you know, like being gay in Malaysia would be really hard for him. And her heart was aching. There was from her word knowing that what I have to go through, and I see her son [00:41:30] have to go through the same thing. But at the same time, I also felt some feel some comfort because knowing firsthand that, you know, like, um, you can still be who you are in the end of the day, you just need to have some plan, what you're going to do, um, enable in in order to enable and facilitate that humans growing process is not going to damage on the individual. Mhm. That must be very hard [00:42:00] to have to leave your home country knowing that there's probably, um, not going to be a way of you getting back with your partner. Yes, it is. And it was really hard as well. When you think about it because you knew you wouldn't you? You're not going to have the same opportunity as other people. You know, like if let's say, um, my partner is a female, at least we can look at a way, you know, like if there is going to be a better opportunity in career or whatever, that we [00:42:30] can go and do it. Of course, we can still do it. But that mean a lot of things will need to be changed. Like when we go beside our family, I cannot introduce Jerry as my partner. Like he will suddenly become just a friend who flirting with you. And then he will become this funny old friend that go to whatever places you go to together with you. So, um, it's not going to be healthy when you have to hide something especially so important [00:43:00] in your life. Um, so, yeah, in. I mean, like, in New Zealand, at least, you know, like we both are being recognised and not as a couple and able to do things together that we do not fear of how that's going to have repercussions in our life. Um, but also feeling sad about knowing that, um, I will have [00:43:30] to leave, um, my mom, my father and my sisters behind and missing a lot of big occasions when this Chinese New year, Um, or seeing my nephew and nieces growing out. Uh, and that sometimes, um, some time. A few years ago, I finally able to put it aside because I always felt quite sad when I think about I wouldn't be able to be in part of [00:44:00] their life. Uh, because I I love my sisters, uh, sons and daughters and and you suddenly missing out a lot of that kind of joy. Um, but again, I just have to accept. The fact is, sometimes you you you just have to, you know, you gain something, you lost something. So and, um, yeah, there's always [00:44:30] some sacrifice that I will have to make, um, from time to time. Mm.

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TITLE: Joe talks about Q-topia and Forge
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VOICES: Joe
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; Christchurch; Forge (Christchurch); Joe; Qtopia (Christchurch); Rainbow Touchstones; activism; coming out; depression; education; gender identity; health; mental health; school; support; transcript online; transgender; youth
DATE: 15 May 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Christchurch, Christchurch, Canterbury
CONTEXT: Joe talks about the Christchurch youth groups Q-topia and Forge.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi. My name is Joe. Um, for the last few years, I've been involved with facilitating Utopia, which is a queer support network for Queer Youth, and it runs in Christchurch. We have kids aged between 13 and 25 coming along every week, and we basically just hang out, have a bit of fun. Occasionally we do a few workshops and things, and we do quite a lot of cool stuff because we do a lot of fundraising. So, you know, if you want to come along, go for it. How [00:00:30] did you get involved with Utopia? Um, I kind of got kidnapped by my flatmate who was a facilitator at the time. And at the time I was identifying as a lesbian, and I got dragged along to a meeting one night and look, I found a lesbian, and that was it. I was the only female facilitator. So that was it. I wasn't allowed to leave, so Yeah, it's been five years, and I've kind of shifted my focus to the offshoot of that now which is forge, which is for trans youth. But I think it's one of those things You [00:01:00] never really leave. So can you tell me a wee bit about Forge? Yep, that was put in place by one of our facilitators, Evan, probably late last year. And it was just sort of out of a need for trans youth to have a bit of their own space because some of them don't identify as queer. And a lot of the issues that trans youth and trans people have are different to the ones that queer people have. So we thought we'll start something up for them and just sort of see how it goes. And it's going really well at the moment. What are some of the different [00:01:30] issues that are different from being queer? I think. Well, I mean, everybody struggles with body image, but for trans people, that can be a lot more of a big deal. And also for trans youth, being taken seriously is quite a big issue. You know, when you come out as queer, a lot of people will get hassled. You know, maybe it's the phase. You're so young, you don't know what you're doing, but she wanting to realign your gender to how you feel inside is a huge big deal and a lot of the time her parents struggle with a lot more as well. [00:02:00] So what kind of age group are we talking about? Um, I think the youngest we have in Forges 16 and around about mid twenties, I think. But yeah, the facilitators. I think we're both 28 but we've got quite a few young people around the 16 17 mark. I never figured it out that young. It's amazing. Can you talk about some of their perspectives on life and [00:02:30] trans issues? I mean, does that surprise you? Some of the stuff that they're coming up with? It's amazing that some of them just don't seem to struggle with it The way that I remember struggling with it like I was, I don't know, Maybe it was the age thing. I wasn't really thinking about it until I was in my mid twenties. But then at 16, they're so sure this is who they are. This is what they want. This is what they're gonna do, and it's just that simple for them. They're like, I'm a guy, I'm a girl, and that's really just as simple as it is. And that's just really amazing [00:03:00] to see 16 year olds with such assurance about themselves and just some of the stuff they say, like Oh, yeah, I'm the guy and they just say it like it's just the most natural thing in the world Whereas I was just a mess for ages about it. Where do you think that assurance comes from? I really don't know if I knew I would be going to get some myself, I think, actually, but I just I don't know. Maybe it's something they've been thinking about for so long. And also, I think having the trans space helps them a little [00:03:30] bit, because when they come along, they automatically get gendered correctly called by whichever name they want treated the gender they want. And I think that helps them feel a little bit better about it, too. Uh, we might be the only people who are taking them seriously, so when they come along, they automatically know that they're gonna be treated the way they want to be treated. And I think they really like that. Can you relate to some of the experiences that I've told you about? You know what it's like to be in the school system at the moment. What? We've got [00:04:00] one young Trans guy, and he's just finding it really, really rough at school. Being Trans, uh, won't be called by his preferred name by any of his teachers, and his guidance counsellor is probably the only support that he really has. And I can't really imagine what that's like because I didn't come out as Trans till I was in my mid twenties. But it must be really isolating because people, especially young people who haven't really had too much life experience, it just sort of lump [00:04:30] it all in with the queer thing. Or they get the whole fetishized, you know, transvestite kind of thing. And it's just really not like that. And a lot of the time they just feel really ignored. Yeah, I think actually, most of the kids we've got are finding it really, really rough at school at the moment. And a lot of them just haven't even come out at school because it's just not worth it. They think they'll just wait until they leave school at university and sort of do the change then, which does make a lot of sense, sort of trying [00:05:00] to change that in the last couple of years at high school would be a bit of a mission, I think so. What are they like when they you know, the first point of contact when they come into contact with the group, they're usually pretty quiet. And we're sitting there going, Oh, how are you? What's your name and all that sort of stuff? And they're just monosyllables, which is not that uncommon. Queer youth. Anyway, a lot of the time, they don't really want to talk that much, but yeah, once they realise that we're not actually trying to preach at them, we're not trying to change their mind. [00:05:30] We're not trying to educate them. They just really get into it. And we just talk about all sorts of stuff, and I think they find it a relief that, you know, we don't think they're crazy like it's not really a massive support group. Like we think they're not through anything. We just want to hang out and have a space where it's kind of tacit. You don't really have to say I'm trans all the time and talk about trans stuff all the time. Like most of the time we just talk about movies and stuff, but it's just really nice to know that people understand what it's like [00:06:00] and it's sort of freeing just to not have to talk about trans things. It's really cool. So we just talk about whatever. So did you have anything like that when when you were coming out? No, I didn't even know how to be gay when I came out. I just kind of thought, Well, I'm gay now. What do I do? Hit the dating sites? Bad idea. But never mind. I was like, I didn't even know where to start. So I just started at the wrong end, went from there, and there was nothing. When I was first [00:06:30] questioning when I was 18 or 19, there was only just one group at university and I just went along and there were just some middle aged women there. I thought no. So I just kind of had to find my own way, which was really, really hard. And if there had been something like Utopia out there, then I would have probably not had quite so much of a nightmarish time in the first couple of years of being out But a lot of our facilitators have started working with Utopia [00:07:00] because there was nothing like that when they were coming out. And I think it's just such a good thing to be doing and especially with the Trans thing, it's just it's Christchurch for a start. It's just unheard of. People don't talk about it, and really the only thing we've got is agenda and that it does have an older person focus. It's not really geared towards really young people, so it's quite good to have something out there that sort of focuses on young people and what issues they might be having with being trans and agenda sort [00:07:30] of. They feel like they have to cover everything. But with just a specific focus on the trans stuff, I think is quite valuable for our young people. So does the Does the youth group, um, have any tie in with agenda? We're working on having a bit more to do with them. They've got quite a lot of really valuable resources and I think a lot of the trans people who are within agenda would be really, really good for our kids to talk to as well. I know that, uh, teenagers [00:08:00] aren't often that keen to talk to people about things. But, I mean, everyone's story is different. Everyone's transitional journey is different, and I think it might be quite good for them to hear quite a few different opinions on it. That and, um, yeah, there have so many books in the library, and I think we have the National Agenda Library at the moment. And I think it might be quite good to just put a few books in the kids' direction. And, yeah, have a bit of a read be good for them. It's good for us, too. So maybe a little book group or something. [00:08:30] So what's Christchurch like in terms of the the kind of queer and trans scene? It's conservative. Slight understatement. It's getting a bit better because there are obviously really strange people like me floating around, stirring things up or trying to when I'm awake. But it is quite gendered lesbian, gay, and there's not a lot else that goes on, at least not publicly, which is a bit of a shame. Um, the trans scene really, [00:09:00] really small. There's really not that many of us around who actually Well, I mean, we're always around, we're everywhere, but I don't really get together much. So you have to sort of find your own friends where you can find them and just stick with them. Like I've got quite a few trans friends and we all just hang out together, but it's taken me a long time to find them. Um, I don't think we really get taken that seriously on the queer scene, which is a shame. Like, I don't know when I go out, people still think I'm a lesbian, which is [00:09:30] unfortunate because I never like being called lesbian. Anyway, could you at least call me a homo? That'd be great, but yeah, when we want to do stuff, the trans people just go to the other queer stuff and just people make what they want of us, which is, unfortunately usually incorrect. But never mind. Uh, yeah, it is very conservative here. We don't have a lot that goes on on a regular basis. It's just during Pride Week, and occasionally there'll be a big event. But it's really not that often, so people just kind of do their thing [00:10:00] quietly in their everyday lives. Basically sums up Christchurch. Actually, we just kind of keep to ourselves, which is a shame. It would be nice to see a bit more community, but we're working on it. So did you come out? Um, both in terms of sexuality and gender at the same time? No. I thought I'd do the ultimate shock value with my parents and do it twice the ultimate torment. Um, the sexuality came first, [00:10:30] and I sort of settled into that. And then I was like, No, no, there's something still not quite right with this picture, and it took me another. Probably it's probably about five years in between the two coming out. So yeah, it took me a little while. I kind of settled into being queer and and people would label me as a lesbian and I'd think, No, no, I don't quite like that. Why do I prefer being called a homeowner? Why is that? And eventually I figured it out anyway and came out again and made my mom cry again. And it's all good now. [00:11:00] Which do you think was hardest, or were they both equal? I think the Trans was actually easier. In some ways, it's harder to be taken seriously because I haven't transitioned yet. I'm still not taken seriously a lot of the time, which is fine. I don't really care anymore. But the sexuality was harder because that was sort of the first shift from being what was considered normal. But by the time I've been living the queer lifestyle for five years already, and I was already out there doing [00:11:30] Pride Week and drag King drag queen, drag everything I could get my hands on just, you know, really, really, really gay. Anything I did after that was not going to be as much of a shock. And most people in my life have been really good. I think it's harder for Mom and Dad because they're losing their daughter and they're gaining a son, but it's just that's hard for them. But in general, I don't think I really could have shocked them that much more, and I was already pretty weird. So actually, I'm a guy where he wasn't as big a deal as I thought [00:12:00] it would be. How did that conversation happen? Um, I just said, I'm coming over, I need to talk to you and I just sort of sat on the couch and looked miserable for about an hour. And eventually Mum just said, All right, OK, what? I said, Well, you know how I've been really depressed lately? There's a reason for that. I'm transgendered and she said, Oh my God, no And just kind of ran out of the room and Dad was sitting there saying, What's that? It means she wants [00:12:30] to be a man like Oh, no, but yeah, a couple of hours later and lots of crying and lots of hugs and I had to try not to overload them with too much information straight away, because it's just huge. I've been their daughter for when I came out 26 years, so I tried not to talk too much about what the transition process would involve, and I just sort of tried to focus on, you know, this is how I feel about it and to let them know that it takes as long as it takes for them to [00:13:00] get used to it. I thought about it for God knows how many years before I sort of came to terms with it, So if it takes them at least that long, then cool, whatever. But yeah, they're getting their head around it now and helped me choose my new name and everything, So I kind of like they're helping me get involved and stuff, which is really cool. When did you start having gender identity thoughts? Um, I think it would be the first time I dressed up in drag as a drag king when I was maybe 21. [00:13:30] I think it was the first time I actually bound down my chest and I was like, Oh, that's what it's supposed to be like. This is cool. And I always thought, You know, I just I go and do shows and stuff and I'd spend hours and hours and hours in drag at home practising. And then I realised it wasn't actually practising. All I was doing was just looking in the mirror, thinking, you know, this is cool. And eventually I realised I didn't actually like performing, either. I hate it. I get really bad stage fright, I think. Why am I doing this then? It's like an excuse to dress up like [00:14:00] a guy, and I thought, Well, yeah, I could just be a guy all the time. Simple. So once I started thinking about it like that, it kind of went downhill pretty quickly from there. And probably only about six months after I really started seriously thinking about it, I thought, right, this is how it's gonna be now. So, yeah, I think it was about the beginning of 2009 when I finally sorted it out and I was heading up to Wellington for the then. So I thought, right, Try the new name. Try [00:14:30] the new gender, See how it goes just because I was going to meet so many people, that didn't know me. So I wanted to see what it would be like to be gendered correctly called by my new name, and it was just fantastic. So I've never looked back from there. What are your thoughts when you see somebody coming along to the sport group as a 16 year old, and they're just very definite about, you know, um, the agenda and things like that. I'm like, Oh, my God, I'm so jealous of you right now. I didn't figure it out for 10 years [00:15:00] after they figured it out, and I think with the transitional process which is so long and so painful and so expensive and time consuming. They can start so much earlier. But then again, it's not always a bonus. Like I had an extra 10 years of maturity, sort of. I can see a lot of young trans people and, like, I have to do this right now. I need my hormones. I need my surgery. I need this. I need that. Everybody has to call me by my right name, all the time kind of thing. And they're just so desperate. And I think the added experience has made me just [00:15:30] a little bit more patient things take time, Endo appointments, take time. Surgery takes money. And you know, I've lived enough of my life already to realise that patience is the key. Uh, it's taken me. How many years to get used to the idea. It's gonna take another. How many years to transition, and that's absolutely fine. It's it's cool. But these young people, I think, you know, even if they can just start the process when they're 18 and they're gonna be amazing by the time they're 25 they'll be done. I hadn't even started when I was 25. So I'm [00:16:00] so jealous. Can you talk a wee bit about the just the practicalities of transitioning? And you you were saying how you know it takes time and money. What are those kind of requirements nowadays? Um, the first step is to get a referral to a psychologist from a GP. So you have to convince your GP that you're serious enough to be sent to a psychologist. But most GPS should realise that it's not their place to make the judgement. And that's why you're paying, you know, $4 million an hour for [00:16:30] a psychologist to say yes, you're actually transgendered and you need a psychiatric letter from a psychologist. It's usually a couple of sessions with They just sort of make sure that you know what you're doing, know what the consequences are, and make sure that you're sort of in your right mind and able to take on the It is a massive thing to be doing. So I just want to make sure that you're OK about it, doing it for the right reasons and that sort of thing. And once you have that, you can get a referral to an endocrinologist. Well, that's different. Sort of. Wherever you go, [00:17:00] Christchurch, you need a psych assessment first, I think Wellington you can just go to the end, but you need to get your psychologist letter after that. So in some respects I'm ridiculously jealous because I could have just gone to an endocrinologist and got my testosterone already if I was in Wellington. But just the way Christchurch is quite backwards like that. So psych assessment first and then the end, though, but it's just a huge period of waiting. It's a six month wait for an endocrinologist appointment here, which is ridiculous, but it's just the way it is. [00:17:30] So I can wait. And if I wanted to be awful, I could play the mental health card and say, I'm really depressed. I need my testosterone right now, but, oh, I don't really need it. I want it really badly, but I don't need it. Whereas some people who go to the endocrinologist actually have something really, seriously hormonally wrong with them. And why should my wanting to transition sort of be put above what they need physically to be alive? I mean, I'm pretty healthy. I'm alive and my body [00:18:00] may not look the way I want it to, but I can wait a few months for my testosterone, so waiting it is, and that's absolutely fine. Um, the surgery sort of. It's just a money thing, and it's a preference thing. It's around for a trans guy to get his chest done. It really depends where you go. In New Zealand. It could be up to $15,000. 18 maybe. I know a guy recently who got done for about that much. I'm personally looking at going to Australia. [00:18:30] There's a really good surgeon over there and it will be about 10,000 and she does some really good work. I know a couple of guys have gone to Thailand and they've had results that they're happy with. And one of my friends went to America to one of the best surgeons for chest surgery that he wanted, so it's really just a preference thing. But for me, um, depending on the size you want to start with, you might need a revision or something and I don't want to go to America and then have to go back to get it fixed up. So I'm thinking Australia, but, [00:19:00] yeah, that's just a sort of depends how you want to pay for it. I don't personally want to take out a loan because I've just paid one off and I've nearly paid off my student loan. So I'm looking at saving, and I mean, it's just sort of depends on the comfort level, like some guys have really big chests or whatever. They just really just need it gone. And I can understand that. But I'm quite lucky. I can't really think about it that much because it's easy for me to hide mine. So if it takes me a couple of years to save up, then that's fine. I'm really not that worried about it, but it's also I'm [00:19:30] quite comfortable with my body. It's not the way I want it to be, but I'm quite comfortable with it at the moment. And if I have to live with it like this for a couple of years, and that's sweet, Uh, you mentioned earlier that, um, when you were coming out to your parents, um, in terms of the the gender that, um, you had had depression for for a while, Was that specifically because of what was going on in terms of the gender and the sexuality. I think it was. I get [00:20:00] depression quite badly anyway, and I think a lot of the problem was that I'd been out as a guy living as Joe for a year, and I still hadn't told Mom and Dad thinking These are two of the most important people in my life. Why haven't I told them? But I, I just really wasn't sure what sort of reception I get. But I don't like keeping things like that from them, and they've always been really good to me. We're all we've always been really close, so I felt kind of shitty about it. Why haven't I told Mom and Dad and I knew that once they got used to it, that would probably [00:20:30] be my biggest support, and I would need them to do the transition thing. I needed them to be on board, so it was sort of like the pressure got to me in the end and I was just a mess and thought right. I just have to tell them I've been doing this for ages, and it's getting to the point where I'd have girlfriends who didn't know me as and the girl. They knew me as Joe, their boyfriend, And I felt like I couldn't bring them over to introduce them to my parents because my parents still call me a and they'll be like, Who's that? And that would be really confusing for them and be really [00:21:00] uncomfortable for Mom and Dad and them. So I thought, I'll just tell them, you know, the sooner they've got a chance to get their head around it the better. And I sort of felt like I wasn't giving enough credit thinking that they wouldn't cope. I mean, they're my mom and dad, and they've always supported me through everything. And I've put them through Helen back. So why wouldn't they support me through this? So I thought I was give them a chance and they have been good. They've been really good to me. So, yeah, Has the depression gone away? No, [00:21:30] it just kind of It was always there, and it changes a bit. It gets worse. It gets better at the moment. It's rough. Maybe next week it won't be so rough, but it really I think growing up a little bit has helped me managed it quite a lot better as well, just sort of knowing what I need to do to take care of myself. And if I keep the rest of my life in balance, then the Depression is OK. It's only when things get a bit out of control. Like if I'm having stress at work or bad relationship or something, it's quite hard to keep it managed, [00:22:00] and I do lose a little bit sometimes. But generally speaking, I just have to be a little bit vigilant and sort of make sure that I'm looking after all the aspects of my life, which is a bit tiring, and I really wish I didn't have to do it. But at the end of the day, I have depression, so it's really my responsibility to manage it. And if that means just taking two pills a day and that makes me a happier guy, then that's worth it. Do you see many mental health issues in, um, your youth support [00:22:30] group? Is that something that that that is frequent or it is surprisingly frequent and I'm not sure if it's just a result of being queer or if it's just something that's happening in general with more young people these days and people eager to make diagnoses and put people on pills and all that sort of stuff, It just seems to be like every second kid in the groups on some sort of drugs for a DH D or depression or they're into the self-harm thing or it's just it's actually really, really sad [00:23:00] because it just wasn't I don't think it was really recognised as much when I was 16, sort of. I didn't really know anyone who was depressed except myself, and now it seems that just about everyone is, But it doesn't really seem to bug our kids that much, which is amazing, like when you think about depression, you quite often think you know, can't get out of bed sad all the time, and these kids are taking, you know, the same medication that I do and they're fine. They [00:23:30] come around and they're just buzzing and they're all jumping around with their friends, and it's just it's really cool, like they don't really seem to let it bother them. It's just sort of like another fact of life. Yeah, I'm queer Yeah, I've got whatever mental illness they been with today, and they just call it. I think, you know, they don't make as big a deal out of it as older people do. Like I think, um, older people sort of live their diagnosis a little bit more. Maybe young people just think. Oh, well, you're labelling me anyway, just whatever. But [00:24:00] older people, I've got depression. I've got this. I've got that and they seem to focus on it a little bit more. Young people seem to feel like they've got too much to live for. And who cares about being depressed sort of thing. So that's quite cool. It makes me sort of look at mine a little bit more positively, too, I think just thinking, Well, I don't let it bother them. Why should I be miserable? So it keeps me young. Do you think it's easier coming out now than it was when you did? Yeah, even I think it must [00:24:30] be about nine years since they came out, and even now it's just so much easier. When I came out, my mom and dad and my friends and stuff, they didn't really know any gay people. And now, like every second person's queer, which is cool. I think it's awesome. We should take over the world. But, yeah, there are just so many. There's so much more queer sort of stuff going on in the media and, you know Oh, isn't that Ellen DeGeneres queer? Isn't she a lesbian sort of thing? Everyone knows. Oh, isn't that guy on American Idol gay? You know, [00:25:00] everyone knows of someone who is queer, which is fantastic and, you know, even like Trans stuff is getting a bit more out there like the movie Transamerica and stuff. I got my parents to watch that, and I thought it was great. So I think people are getting a bit more aware of it, which is quite cool. And it's just not such a huge big deal anymore. And people are making such different lifestyle choices to the choices they were making even 10 years ago. You know, people just doing what they want to do to be happy now, which is cool. So I think it'd be a lot easier to come out [00:25:30] now, like if I could come out now to my parents, I'm sure it would be a lot better. So when you were coming out, what were the things in the media like on TV or in films that you remember as as being queer? I think when I came out, it was around about the time on that programme, Bad Girls, where the prison officer was in love with the inmate kind of thing and I was like, Oh, she's so hot kind of thing So I was like, Oh, yeah, that that's the gay stuff And I think the L word was just sort of coming out, too, so [00:26:00] that I don't know. It's kind of misleading because that's not really like real life everyone. Is that what it's like to be a lesbian? And I was like, Well, I wish it was, but unfortunately, no. So there was that going on, and there wasn't really a lot of lesbian stuff going on. Then it was more, you know, Priscilla, Queen of the Desert had just come from there was playing in Melbourne or something, and everyone's like, Oh, cool. And, you know, they just hear about a couple of New Zealand celebrities who come out as gay or something. Oh, then [00:26:30] I where the man's gay kind of thing. But there wasn't really a lot going on then. I think the L word was the worst bit, though, because everyone was like Is that what you're like? No. Oh, and the top twins, which is I don't know, Like I think my mom was scared I was going to end up like that. So I I was going to be, like, one of the top twins. I'd be like it already, but, you know, I think she the people just thought I was going to change or something. But I was just exactly the same person [00:27:00] I just told them about it. It was It was the only thing that was different. Can you yodel? No, I can sing, but I'm not yodelling. It's really not my thing. I'm more like barber shop and jazz. Hey, we were looking through some of your old photographs. Um uh, just before we started recording, What is it like seeing yourself? Um, as as a young girl, Um, I think I was cuter than than I am [00:27:30] now, and I don't really look at it and think, Oh, that was so wrong. That was so wrong. like a lot of trans people, sort of. They felt wrong their whole life. I didn't really feel wrong, like I was just a happy kid, I But I think with a lot of young kids, they don't think about the agenda at all. Like you get labelled as a boy or a girl and you think cool, but you don't actually care. It's just not important. And it wasn't until it really started mattering when I was a teenager that I even thought about it. But [00:28:00] so I just think, Oh, yeah, that was just me when I was a kid and I was just really happy and I was a really happy kid. I had a great childhood, so I just like looking at the photos, and it just seems weird seeing me with long hair. But apart from that, it's cool. If there was anything that you would say to somebody coming out now, either through, um, for kind of sexuality or gender, what what would that be? I would just say there's no right time to do it. There's no wrong time. There's no right [00:28:30] or wrong way to do it, and it's different for everyone. um, just get support from wherever you can find your allies and stick close to them and just be really patient. It takes time, and you may have been thinking about it for years, but often the people you've been, you know, you're telling won't have been thinking about it. So you give them a bit of a break. And it's really hard when you're young and you want everyone to understand so desperately. But people won't always or or take them time. And it does hurt [00:29:00] when the people you think are gonna understand don't. But you could be really surprised by people you think they won't get it, who are just amazing. So just be who you are. Stick with the people who care about you and give people time.

IRN: 165
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/feminist_queer_book_group.html
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089154
TITLE: Feminist Queer Book Group
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VOICES: George Mapplebeck
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 2010s; George Mapplebeck; Wellington; feminism; library; organisation; transcript online
DATE: 10 May 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast George Mapplebeck talks about the Feminist Queer Book Group in Wellington.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So here we have George Maple and George Mag is going to tell us about FUBG. Hi, Hannah. How's it going? Um, yes, a square book group or FQBG is something that, um I started with some friends, like, a year ago. How did you think to Were you sitting around and throwing some ideas around, or how did that come out? We were kind of just It was like new years that we basically came up with the idea and we were, like, [00:00:30] had, like, this burst of energy. We just decided that we needed to, like, have a forum to sort of talk about some of the things that we started gender studies and such papers. It like it isn't really, like, socially appropriate to discuss some of the things that we talk about in other contexts. So, like why we thought it was important to tell me some of the socially inappropriate things that you talk about, I don't know. Like when we talk about feminism, this is not always a popular topic with your flatmates or, [00:01:00] you know, sort of boring people at parties and things like that, but, um yeah, we thought it was important to talk about. And so yeah, and we like talking about what we read as well. So so is it. Did you kind of think of the idea because you'd been talking about particular topics at parties and people were like, Oh, and you, you know, from the responses, you could see that it was really socially uncool or something, or Well, [00:01:30] yeah, not really. But like, I'm just kind of just kidding around there, but, you know, like, people sort of don't want to get really heavily into sort of political ideas, and they don't want to get really deeply into discussions about, you know, gender in their everyday lives. And that is because I think that they feel they take it too personally or something. And it it does sort of cut a bit fine when they're sort of being seen as a victim or an oppressor or [00:02:00] something like that, or, you know, like, that's kind of how they might feel about it. They might think that it's all about them. Exactly. Yeah, like or, you know, maybe they just think that that kind of stuff is boring, but we don't think it's boring. So you started up after New Year, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, Well, some time after that, when we had a meeting and talked about what we're gonna do and we started just like having a couple of meetings at [00:02:30] my house, and then it kind of more people started coming. And so we got, like, a a real venue, which is very fortunate that we've got that because otherwise I don't know where we'd put all the people that are coming along now. So how did it all grow? You You know, you had a few meetings, and it just was it word of mouth or Yeah, pretty much like it just started with our friends. And then we started inviting other people along and people told each other, and I guess [00:03:00] kind of word of mouth. Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. And how many people come to the to the average meeting? Um, the last meeting we had there was 13 new people as well as everyone else. And so that was pretty huge, but yeah, usually meetings are about sort of around 12 people, but that was a particularly popular topic. What was that? That was on polyamory. And what are the topic. Is it monthly or weekly, or, um, we run once a month. [00:03:30] We've been thinking about maybe running more often, but for now, it's once a month, sort of on an evening. And, yeah, some of the other topics that we've been doing. Um, so, yeah, the last one we had was polyamory, which was really popular. Um, I guess everyone pretty much hates monogamy or something. Um, or, you know, at least wants to talk about it, which I think is often the most important thing. Whether you do it or not is kind of irrelevant if you get the opportunity [00:04:00] to talk about it most of the time. And, yeah, we had a really good one on fighting phobia, um, women in history, which was kind of just people prepared something that on a particular person I did to Lula Bankhead. Yeah, and we had an, um a discussion on the commercialization of identity and the pink dollar and that kind of thing, So, yeah, we talked about gentrification and sort of money and marketing [00:04:30] and all that stuff. Um, we had a really hands on thing with feminism and art. So we all made a and talked about feminists and did role plays and that kind of thing. And we've had a couple of things on psychology and feminism, which, um, is something that some people in the group are actually studying. So it's really interesting to talk about that and sort of theoretical perspectives of feminist [00:05:00] philosophies around psychology, I guess. Yeah. And we had, um a more fun one with a feminist that you don't agree with. So, yeah, we ripped into, like, all those feminists from the sixties that now we completely don't agree with, Um, yeah, we had one about lesbian identity and invisibility, which is, um, a really fun [00:05:30] one. And I had some good discussions. Um, the feminism in medicine one was really well attended as well. Like people kind of. It's kind of interesting that the issues that people think are really important. So do people pick, Do you? Is there a core group or a collective or something? And you pick the next month's topic, or does it just kind of come out? We usually try and find people that are sort of interested in talking about something, so it's not It's not us. [00:06:00] That sort of, um handle the talking to the group or facilitating every single meeting. Usually we just find someone who wants to sort of arrange a group of people and talk about it and have some discussion questions. And, yeah, let's prepare a little bit. And so does someone kind of do a talk and then you have a discussion or, uh, well, it can. It's sort of we've had, like, quite different ways of running it. So, like each meeting is not like the last. [00:06:30] So we've been kind of experimenting with what works and what doesn't and that kind of thing, and we've decided that it's a good idea if we share our meetings now. So sometimes we have a chair. So cheers are always good, aren't they? So are the people that attend often are they agree with each other quite a lot. Or just do a lot of, um, sessions get quite heated. And, um, I think it's pretty much we all have different [00:07:00] perspectives, but we all come from a background of feminism or something like that. So we all are sympathetic to sort of opening up our minds and that kind of thing. So we do have disagreements, but, you know, it sort of. It's more like a sparking. A discussion kind of disagreement. Then I sort of I hate you. And you. I'm never coming back to the group again. So what have been some of the I guess obviously [00:07:30] you do this because you're really interested in all the topics and having yarns about this. What have been some of the really, really interesting things for you that you've gone. Oh, wow. I would have never thought about that. Or um Oh, wow, that's at the end of the last one. We ended up having a really interesting sort of like a segue into some issues around queer politics and where people sort of stand on that and whether someone who isn't really political but is [00:08:00] gay or lesbian is as queer as someone who is potentially straight but who supports queer politics. So, yeah, we had, like, a really sort of long in depth discussion, which is really like I was quite surprised, surprised that people had actually, like, really thought about it and, you know, had some interesting things to say. So what were some of the I guess, points of views that came out of that. Um, some people think that, um, people that sort [00:08:30] of lollop off to ivy every weekend and, um who yeah, who who don't really have any sort of politics or personal code of ethics for operating in the political world. Uh, we we sort of There was the opinion that maybe they're not as clear as another gay or lesbian person. That sort of has a queer politics, like they do the opposite of [00:09:00] sort of centrist values. Kind of, um So, yeah, we had the other shoe foot scenario because, um, there was the opinion that those people also are, like, probably the most visible queers as well. And so, like, even by leaving the house, they're sort of making a political move or something like that with their T shirts and their skinny jeans. [00:09:30] Yeah. So tell me about you identify as a lesbian, talk to me about lesbian invisibility, because that was I think that was a term that was around a while ago. Does it still apply, or how does it apply? Um, we just kind of in that discussion, we talked about how lesbians aren't, um, the sort of the main voice of gay and lesbian and everyone else politics. So, yeah, so [00:10:00] people have stereotypes about lesbians, but they don't sort of see lesbians when they're right in front of them as well. So people sort of expect, like a big butch dyke with sort of cigarettes rolled into a t-shirt or something like that. Um, but this is definitely not the case. And while there is, like a lesbian culture that has some of those stereotype of aspects in it, I think, um, especially for, like, fem women. I think we talked [00:10:30] about how they sort of struggle to sort of be recognised as queer and is yeah, outside of the, um What's the word? Norm? The norm. Thank you. Yeah. So have you. Have you always known that you're a lesbian? Um, I think I always kind of felt that I was different, but I don't think I've always identified as [00:11:00] a lesbian. I think a lesbian is something that reflects your cultural identity as much as it does your sexual identity. And I think being a lesbian, for me is about sort of being a part of, like a gay culture rather than anything about my sexuality. per se, like there's definitely a correlation, but it's kind of hard to sort of describe. It's [00:11:30] yeah, like because, like being attracted to girls in high school. You You're not like I am a this because I think that girls are hot. Yeah, I think that's something that you have to try out the label. And I see if you can feel like a lesbian is like, an ok thing to be And then, yeah, sort of So a little bit like the difference [00:12:00] between someone who is, I don't know, a homosexual And someone who I, I guess, identifies as as lesbian or as gay and is involved in queer communities or whatever. Yeah, so, yeah, I think part of coming out to myself was being like, I can be a lesbian. Yeah. And I I couldn't like, I think when I was first sort of thinking about it, it was kind of like a lesbian [00:12:30] is something that I'm definitely not, because I just couldn't be a lesbian because of, you know, like where I'm from and connotations or just like you look like that. And I'm not like that. Yeah, pretty much exactly that. Like I just didn't feel like I had the that, like, other. And how did that change? Was it to do with your interaction or partaking in queer communities [00:13:00] or lesbian communities or Yeah, pretty much, I think I I sort of got more information about what being a lesbian culturally actually meant. And then sort of deciding that that, like, my my sexuality actually mattered in terms of how I was going to relate to the rest of the world as well. And sort of that was gonna be something that would make me go down certain pathways or whatever it was, you know, like, [00:13:30] uh and so what were some of your early, I guess forages or interactions with the lesbian communities? Was it in Wellington or, um, I actually grew up in so yeah, my parents still living in. So Yeah, that's where I'm pretty much from. And there really aren't any gay people there like, I'm sure, But they're invisible. Yeah, like they're not telling. And [00:14:00] I think not having any like queer role models in that community was kind of maybe why I took so long to get my head around being a lesbian as well. But Yeah, like I moved to Wellington and had a lot more influences from other lesbians. And how did you find? How did I find out? No, no, no. I live with with, um, some [00:14:30] lesbians, and so did you find that very much in a closet? But I was living with a lesbian and things, and it was, like, blah, blah, blah. And she would, like, talk about what she did on the weekend, and, yeah, so was it accidentally you moved into a flat and there happened to be a lesbian, or you kind of talked around for flats and people were like, Hey, like, how did you find her? I don't know. I think she was just, like, friends of friends. Kind of. [00:15:00] Yeah. And through her kind of talking about what she got up to on weekends. And you you saw that something existed and you could be part of it. Yeah, like finding out where people go and that kind of thing, just from her. Maybe, um, and just Yeah, like having the option of getting involved in the community and, um, meeting people and that kind of thing. So you kind of struggled with I guess imagining yourself as a lesbian. Did you Once you kind of saw that [00:15:30] there was ways to be a lesbian or that there were lesbians out there and they weren't completely invisible. Did you have any struggle to accept that you were a lesbian then, like personally with yourself, or did it just kind of come along with that? I think it took. It was kind of a gradual thing. I think that the hardest part was probably sort of dealing with my own kind of issues around what a what a lesbian would be would mean for, like, my friends and my family and that kind of thing. And how do they cope with [00:16:00] you being a lesbian? They're pretty cool, actually. But I was so psyched, I doubt anyway, like Oh, no, they're all going to reject me that kind of thing. Um, and they didn't. Of course it's good, but yeah, you do sort of like build it up in your head a lot, So it's not as bad. So everyone come out. No, no one's gonna hate you for it, but it actually is real bad for some people. [00:16:30] I know, but like in my experience. It's fine. So I recommend it. If you had come out at school, what do you think? The responses there would have been like, um, I don't know, Like I was sort of like an almost popular kid, Not quite like the most popular, But, like, I think maybe people might have changed their sort of attitudes to me. Just because I don't know. It's kind of like a right wing school. Is that Could I say that? Yeah, I think you're allowed to [00:17:00] say that. Do you mean that they would vote national if they were? Or do you mean you mean kind of conservative values like they think that homosexuals are strange people, sort of criminal equities and that kind of thing, like, untrustworthy Or, you know, like all these, all these negative stereotypes that they would say about gay people or something. And, you know, like, it wasn't like a positive thing that you called someone you weren't like, [00:17:30] Oh, that's so gay. It's like, yeah, and particularly with guys. I mean, they're always like casting sort of doubts upon the other's sexuality, and I think, as a way to pick up a lot of them didn't feel like a very comfortable but yeah, I. I remember having like lots of debates with my music teacher about gay people and how they were OK. And even though I was like, I'm not one, [00:18:00] but I reckon they are OK. And so your music teacher was saying that they weren't OK or, uh, pretty much. Yeah. Oh, dear the music teacher who we shall remain unnamed. So do you think that there's, you know, with all homosexual law reform and this that and the other and people on Shortland Street and and what do you think? There's still homophobia in in our society today. Well, I think the difficulty is there's [00:18:30] just not like there's nowhere for young people to really see positive gay and lesbian role models in the community. Like which I think maybe if there were just like more people that were out and lived, sort of OK lives and, you know, like, people would be able to see that there's a future in gayness without, like, all this sort of negative stuff. So you think [00:19:00] that it doesn't happen enough? Yeah, I think that if if people will sort of like like if the gay characters and stuff weren't automatically like sex crazed maniacs. Who? Yeah, Or, you know, like they're always in, like, cop dramas and stuff and supporting roles. But, like, that's good, but it could be a bit more sort of varied and [00:19:30] have some actual, like, positive stuff associated with that. Yeah, so, um, if BG a way of, you know that that's part of your community work. But is it also a way to kind of generate change and get people thinking and and moving and acting? Well, like when we started it, we didn't really envisage it as, like, a political thing or like that we were gonna change the world or anything, but I think just being able to talk about it is pretty cool. Yeah. So the feminist [00:20:00] Queer Book group. That's some of the ways that you're involved in, I guess Queer communities or gay and lesbian communities or whatever. What other things do you do to be involved? Um, apart from going to Ivy with your teacher Oh, yeah. I was gonna say Go to bars. No. Say hi. That's around. And do you Do you think there's a need for gay bars? and totally like. I think one of the best times I've had in Wellington was at um yeah, I used to go there a lot. [00:20:30] And that was when I was like, I can go to town and talk to people by myself. And I don't need my friends to come with me, and this is all OK. And I was just Yeah, it was really good to sort of have a place to go and that kind of thing, and, yeah, just be around other gay people. I think it's really important it be cool if it wasn't always like an alcoholic establishment that you had to meet the people in because, you know, you end up having regrets [00:21:00] drunken R, which I will not talk about now. So you'd like to see more, I guess more visibility or more. Representation or not, there isn't just token of gay and lesbian queer people. How are you treated in society? Um, I don't really notice anymore as much like Do you think that's because it's changed or you you just work it out? [00:21:30] There's sometimes that I do feel kind of uncomfortable and that is like and particularly in women's bathrooms. I think people are, like, really suspicious of me. And I always get that. Do you mean funny looks? Yeah, like the evils of people will actually ask you what you're doing in there or yeah, mostly Just, you know, like, they'll make jokes about it or something. And you'll be like, I feel really uncomfortable now, [00:22:00] something like that when you you just want to urinate something. Yeah, it's it's weird that that's so like, defended. It is a place where you sort of have to be so so female. What do you think that is? Did people just feel funny about their way or I don't know. I think I yeah, I've, you know, if I tried to struggle with the getting into the the sort of mindset of people that look at me strange, [00:22:30] you know, I think I'd probably go crazy because I just don't really understand that I. I just don't think that having a a sort of, um a a solely your gendered space is necessarily a valuable goal. And I think sort of a lot of women will try and police what a woman is, anyway. So I'm just like my message [00:23:00] is just everyone relax. Take a deep breath. So are there other things that you'd like to change in society? Um, I would like world peace. World peace? Yeah, why not? Yep, I think in terms of my sort of feminism, it's kind of like everyone just get out of each other's way feminism and create a space where you can just express [00:23:30] yourself freely and that kind of thing that down really Every theory. I think it sounds great. Was that what has your feminism in your politics? Or I guess, you know, setting up a group to have yarns about really important things Has that kind of come out of doing gender studies? And was it women studies or gender studies or both? I did like one paper studies, but it's always been something that I'd be really interested in. Um, yeah, I used to like I used [00:24:00] to always incorporate it in whatever I was writing about in my history papers or whatever, like something about gender or yeah, or like seating. Lesbian erotica is my sort of history reading or something that's pretty cool. And the other people that are part of the the group that go along regularly has their, I guess feminism or their politics or the stuff that they like to talk about, being, [00:24:30] I guess, influenced or shaped by also going to university and doing gender studies or yeah, I think that's another reason why we started the group is just because we'd all graduated and didn't have people to rant at anymore. No. Yeah. Uh, yeah, we just kind of wanted to be listened to. And in a way, like I'm really smart. Here are my ideas. And so, um, one of the topics [00:25:00] that you had at, uh the the FBG was what were you saying? Like old school feminist or sixties feminism? Oh, yeah, we had, um, don't agree with. And so would most of the people that go to the group be kind of younger, not around in the sixties or slightly older people. Um, yes, we we are not exclusively 20 something. And what were some of the big I guess [00:25:30] disagreements with feminism from the sixties that, you know, I guess younger feminists are disagreeing with, um we talked a bit about Sheila Jeffries. Tell me about Sheila Jeffries. Um, Sheila Jeffrey wrote about how transsexuals are really a bad thing. And they are people who just dress up and fake clothing. And she also had an issue with but lesbianism. So she [00:26:00] was like, she has this great sentence sentence about mutant Fes or something like that. You know, it sounds like a good name for that. Just replicating the patriarchy and stuff, and you can certainly feel the passion, but I just kind of think it's misdirected. And it's just sort of directing against, you know, people whose life is hard enough that she still saying it today. Like in not in the sixties anymore. Yeah, something to that effect. [00:26:30] Yeah. Yeah, but, um yeah, so we talked about that and some other feminists that we didn't agree with. I can't really remember, like, exactly everyone, but so do you think feminism has changed? Because I guess it still gets a a bit of a bad rep or it gets a rep of, you know, it's been done. It got done in the sixties and seventies. Why are we still talking about it now and now we almost earn the same amount as men do. So you know, it's probably all OK, [00:27:00] at least theory, So it's still relevant for still relevant. Um, I just don't think that women are like as valued as men are. And I think that people need to sort of sort of look at feminism of the past and try and adapt them to our current sort of messy, globalised world [00:27:30] because I think that feminist ideas are important. And, yeah, like, I'm almost tell me about what limp is like. You know that whole like, um, sort of a quality of pay sort of fair deal thing. But I think that I think that why women don't get paid as much is because they have to take time out to have kids and because there's not really enough provision for having kids because we set up so [00:28:00] that men don't have to look after kids that women end up missing out on the sort of the centre of their career, and they sort of recover from that well, often don't recover from that and also, um, industries, which are dominated by women for no apparent reason, get less money. And yeah, you can't just sort of explain it away with economics. So you have to be like, [00:28:30] well, something's gonna change and, you know, maybe it's going to change from the top. Or maybe it's going to change just from everyone. But yeah, it's Yeah, it's interesting to think about. Yeah. So have you thought about that stuff because you plan to have Children? Or is it something that you've just seen statistically or with your friends? Or, um, I just think that it's one of the unfairness of society that keep people sort of doing the same things. One of the things, I guess [00:29:00] it's more complicated than just, um, getting paid as much. But yeah. So it's still relevant? Yes. Do you think societal attitudes have changed? Yes, I think so. But I think that you get all of those old ideas and all of the like new ideas and sort of tolerances of people, and you get them all kind of mixed up together in society. [00:29:30] And it's kind of like still, it still seems like a battle to, like be accepted at the time, you know? What about queer communities? How do you How do you guess? I guess Feel about Wellington Queer communities or, um, it's does it exist, or I? I like the gays in Wellington and the lesbians in Wellington, and I think they're pretty great people. I think people do complain a lot [00:30:00] that there's not enough on or that there's nowhere to go or that everyone go. The bar is the same and, yeah, but I think people do need to sort of remember that, you know, they actually have to participate in their community for it to even happen. So I think if people didn't sort of watched Season three of heroes or winter and, you know, went out and organised some parties [00:30:30] or something, then the community would be better off and everyone would have such a great time. So if I was a person interested in coming along to the FQBG and having yarns, how would I find you? Um, you can email FQBG post at gmail dot com or you can find us on Facebook or, you know, you can just hit me up. If you see me around and just ask me about it, yeah, that's basically [00:31:00] it great.

IRN: 214
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/kira_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003861
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089155
TITLE: Kira profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 2010s; Auckland; Kira; Rainbow Youth; Roger Smith; Wai Ho; coming out; gender identity; transcript online; transgender; youth
DATE: 26 May 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Kira talks about transitioning from male to female at seventeen. This podcast was funded by a generous donation from Roger Smith.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So I'm at the, um, Rainbow Youth offices in Auckland with Kiera. Hi, Kiera. Um, so you live in Auckland And you grew up in Auckland? Yes, I was. I was born in Idaho as Matthew David Smith, Um, as male. Um, now I'm a 17 year old trans [00:00:30] female trans woman. MTF came out two years ago, um, started using star last year. Um, got my name changed a few weeks ago, and [00:01:00] yeah, that, too. And did you pick the name? Carry yourself, or do you already have that or a I picked up myself. I just saw it one day when I when I was growing up, when I was about eight or nine reading this book and the main character was called Carry, which is, um, [00:01:30] change of money, Uh, anagram of money and Yeah, cool. And was it a really big decision for you to transition? Well, there wasn't a decision, really? For me transitioning it was the fact that that from a very young age I was a girl and [00:02:00] I was born boy. So it was so it. Well, the fact of transitioning I was telling everyone. Yeah, So you've always known that you're a girl. And what did you say to people when they told you you're a boy? Um, basically, when I was younger, my parents kind of dismissed it and just thought it was me doing normal stuff. Not normal, but [00:02:30] kind of made your skin around. And they didn't realise how serious it was till I I dropped the subject from about 10 to 15 and just went to Dolworth, which is an all boys school, not telling them. And then, yeah, just for my 16th birthday, I told them. And what was their reaction like? [00:03:00] Well, Mom took it and was a few minutes of silence. But Mum took it pretty well. That, on the other hand, was a bit disappointed, and he was blaming himself and everything. And the fact is that we didn't have a strong relationship, So he thought that was to blame. And [00:03:30] and then then he was like Then he went into the denial phase of it and took about two or three months. But he came around and he's supportive of me now. And did you talk while he was kind of coming around or you just kind of give him some space or I. I I encouraged him a bit, but I only [00:04:00] I basically left him to it. But just giving him the odd nudge here and there and just putting hints. So when I was talking about myself, I was used. He or she I mean, I'd use she instead of he because, and just to reiterate it, Like when? When he when I talk to him, I referred to myself as his daughter and stuff [00:04:30] just subtle hands. And your mum was sweet as pretty much from the get go had she kind of, I guess, always known. I guess if you've always known And she she knew something wasn't wrong. But she didn't know what. She had no idea of what was different about me, but she knew I wasn't like my brothers. How [00:05:00] many brothers do you have? I've got 21 older and one younger. And and they both have autism as well. And I've got a tiny bit of it that as much as him, my little brothers, non verbal and your older brother Did you tell him when you told your mum and dad I I told him [00:05:30] when I saw him next went to, like, a couple of weeks after the after me telling him. I mean, after me. Tell my mom, I actually I told my mom first when my dad, Because they don't live together. Yeah. Separated. Yeah. And your brother was good. Did he say anything? Was he? No, he was [00:06:00] it again. Took just him getting used to the fact it wasn't more of a resistance. It was him. Just so used to known me as he and Matthew and his brother. But it just took a while for it to click in. But after that, no, we had it all. And what was going on for you when you were [00:06:30] 16? That made you You like, right? I'll say something to Mum and Dad. Well, I was finding, going to deal with boys boarding school. Just got to the point where I can't deal with it anymore. That I I was I was really low at the time. But then I just silent, right? [00:07:00] I live it long enough. And if they don't believe me now, they're never going to believe me. Kind of. And they turned to And did you tell anyone at school or was it. You decided you wanna see you later, or everyone at school knows now. But at the time, you you're not at the same school. I dropped out of school [00:07:30] because I last year I tried to go back to school, but they weren't so helpful with with the fact that my my legal name was still Matthew. And they and they weren't willing for me to be in female clothing because I was year 12, and they don't want to stir [00:08:00] up a reaction for just a year. And then me going to musty kind of. But that didn't sit well with me, so I tried to go deal with school. Then they don't work out. So then, in June, I tried to do, um, correspondence school bars too far behind in the so I [00:08:30] So I had to give up that. So someone was telling me. Do you also do karate? Yes. Have you always done karate? I started in 2007. When I was still at I was I was finding it hard, and Mom thought because I was having a hard time that [00:09:00] karate would be a good escape for me because I wasn't too good with team sports with and that got me kept me active. And it gave an excuse for me to go out and see and stay home on Wednesday nights, do karate and then train back in on Thursday mornings. Yeah, and do you still do karate now? [00:09:30] Or I have taken a break from it. But yes, I still do karate and you compete in that kind of thing Or is it more just of a training thing for you? I? I train and I have competed, but only which is noncontact, and I'm not allowed to do the chem, which is meant to be still non contact. But But [00:10:00] there's a risk of contact and they raise us and yeah, yeah, So do you enjoy competing or is it just It's fun, but you're taking a break or I enjoy competing and training and everything, but But I'm not. I'm much better at, and I enjoy more than I do, kind of well, at a competitive stage in tournament. [00:10:30] I came fifth in my World Cup in the World Cup. That's pretty green to red bats. And I was green And the male divisions, yeah, and so was the world, um comps here? Or did you have to go abroad to to go to Brisbane? I mean, Melbourne to compete. [00:11:00] It was Melbourne it 2009. August. Yeah, and I went with my mom as well and she competes. She competes as well. Cool. And does she get any prizes or No, no, it's very just you. I don't get price for game fifth. It's just what I got. Yeah, [00:11:30] Mum got fourth and her commit, but And hers was a substantially bigger division. She had 30 in hers, and I had just over 15 or 16. And you're saying that you've got a little bit of autism? How does that affect you? And if it makes me have been transgendered [00:12:00] and the process that much harder But but it just means that I have to change my thinking and my insight to on how I see things and to put them into, uh into something that my my brain can understand. My brain sees more black and white than the grey. So I'm just [00:12:30] I just change what I see into something that's more black and white and more and more definitive, like for transitioning. You never know when it's it's a process, so and there's no set time for that. But then I say, Well, I'm going to do this today, Tomorrow [00:13:00] I'm going to do that and just do little little increments like that. So you've had to kind of learn about how to or you've kind of had to sort out for yourself, I guess how to how to be transfer for yourself. Have you had to kind of teach other people about that as well? A lot of people have to teach. So what do they ask you or what do they? What do you say to them? I just tell them what they need to know in the best way I can My [00:13:30] interpretation of everything. Yeah, and do do you Do you find that lots of people understand autism or understand what that's all about? Or is it again something that you have to educate people about? People have a lot more about autism than they do about transgender, and people don't question my autism, [00:14:00] but they question you being trans well, they don't question me, but then they as such as you're not female or stuff but It's like, How can you see yourself as transgender because you were born a boy? Then for you should be a boy for the rest of your life kind of thing. Have you found that that's the attitude [00:14:30] that, um, lots of other people in the queer community have? Or is it people outside of that? It's usually the straight community or the other April that that take offence to me and that particularly parents of Children are wary of me now, Hm? Is it a bit tricky [00:15:00] or what? Does that feel like? I just shrug it off, and that's that's their problem, that they find a fence with me. It's not my fault. I'm just being me. And how did you come into contact with Rainbow Youth or any of the groups? Um, I'm both psychiatrist and a psychologist at [00:15:30] said something about about Rambo youth and told me about Tommy and then came here and talked to Tommy about it. And he explained a lot to me about stuff that I can't comprehend at the time, because [00:16:00] the trans in by the specialists that were seeing me for it had could wasn't too. He'd never had someone before. He only had the guidance of his colleague of a colleague. Time to see it. But he was new to it, so he couldn't give [00:16:30] me exact exact information. But Tommy took talked me through it. So is it kind of lots of practical things, Or did you have quite a few questions or it? It was more that the process was and is no length, no certain length of time. It's not like in a years time you go on hormones and [00:17:00] all that, but it's everyone at their own pace. Then I've got some more. And did you Were you really keen to meet other Trans women or other Trans people after meeting Tommy? Or had Did you already know lots of trans people before that? Uh, I knew a couple, but I didn't know too many. I came along to, um, to the transgender group [00:17:30] they have at Rainbow Youth called, which was once called Gender Quest, which is now GIQ, or gender identity quest. And from there I met a lot of Trans people. I didn't intentionally go out to seek trans people, but then just happened to be that just happened to meet lots of new people and they just happened [00:18:00] to be trained. Was it really nice meeting them or you just a bit or whatever? It was nice to see. See some people that were more ahead in the process in me and that they could talk me through it because a lot of people, most of the information about the trans community is still held with trans people, not [00:18:30] the so called experts that we have to go to. We There's a lot of educating that we have to do of them. Are they getting it getting any better, or is it still pretty, pretty backwards and annoying? Wow. Wow, It's whoever you meet, whichever doctor you meet. So lucky dip. Yeah, and if if you don't give doctor that that [00:19:00] that or whoever, that hasn't, um that was trend before, um, you you just teach them and help them understand it. And I don't see it as much of a problem because that means that's one person. If another trans person comes along and needs a doctor, well, I know [00:19:30] that person's being taught, thought taught and knows at least one person that's been trained, so right, so that was do you find that being a trans woman? Lots of people, either queer or straight, get being trans like Get gender. [00:20:00] Really mixed up with sexual orientation? Yes, and and even on forms at some time. It's very up. But I guess it's because society doesn't doesn't really grasp the difference between gender and sex, gender being what you choose to be [00:20:30] or what's up in your head And sex is what you've been born as. Yeah, and so do they assume, I guess, you know, do lots of straight people or anyone, Really, I guess. Do they assume that because you're a woman, you're gonna like men? Or is there that kind of stuff that goes on or not? So it's quite quite often thought that but But [00:21:00] I That's not what for me. That's not what All right, see you and I just tell everyone I just tell everyone who asks, because a lot of straight people ask me or queer people as well. But ask just so are you straight or what do you see yourself [00:21:30] as? But I have heard of, um, if you have a partner of a trans person, gets even more ridicule than the actual trans person. Quite often, it usually happens to the Trans person but the like. If I found a girlfriend, she'd be she'd [00:22:00] have to come and if she was serious, had to come to my psychiatry to all my, um, assessment for when they get signed off for surgery and stuff. And then they have to Do they spend longer on questioning the partner, then the Oh, really? Well, what do you think that is? What's that about? [00:22:30] Well, just because they have to live with it, probably. Hm. And have you experienced a lot of transphobia? Yes, I have. But it's but I feel more people. It's them assuming that maybe I'm gay and then a gay male [00:23:00] dressing as they wear feminine clothing that they assume that, um, they assume that. And then they say, And then they are more homophobic, being homophobic. And so there's quite a lot of crossover with homophobia and transphobia. So is it mostly assumptions, Or [00:23:30] have you ever been worried about your safety? Or is it mostly just the everyday where you're down kind of stuff? It's more of that, Yeah, because and I know that if I If if someone ever came at me, I could I could hold my ground so I don't feel lack of safety. There's certain things that I won't do. But that's [00:24:00] but that's what most people. It's more that I won't do it, because I I because my that most people won't do, like, walk around the streets anyways, at two in the morning, with no one knowing where you are and with no one with you being alone, kind of [00:24:30] that kind of thing, I wouldn't do. But I don't I don't feel because I'm trying them under any extra, um, attacks or people. My safety doesn't feel any more breached than if I wasn't Trans. Hm? And do you still go along to GIQ? Yeah, I do. I've [00:25:00] been going for it for over a year. And do you do other other community stuff or other queer trans community stuff? Or is it mainly just I go to the gay group on the generation, or GQ group that meets every second Friday here. What? Which is good? It's for under [00:25:30] 18 S that are queer, a gay and lesbian bisexual. Questioning any anyone can just come and be in a safe place and meet. And what are your plans for? I guess you know, the next few months or the rest of the year, or just [00:26:00] just carry on my my transition and and then I'm sorry. Keep up my karate and keep training and and go to my foundation course and get my get what I need so I can do a, um, nursing certificate. Hm? Get into nursing. Have you always [00:26:30] wanted to do nursing? I've always wanted to be in medicine, but my choices are limited now because I left school and need NC level credits for the to get into med school and to gain to pre med. But and it seems that there's no place apart from school which could can get can [00:27:00] get you there, but that no scenes nursing as available to me. So I would do that. What would you like to see? Change in schools? I guess you know not not just your old school, but schools in general, Um, getting rid of, um, in single sex schools because [00:27:30] that was a big thing for me because I went to a single sex school. So the only thing you can be there is male, so so. But if it was coed, it would might have mean I could have stayed at door and and being able to make a unisex [00:28:00] uniform if if they won't allow you to wear the opposite gender uniform, I said Bye UN option. And what about wider in society? What are some changes that you'd like to see it go through? Just more education of people? And also, it's [00:28:30] ironic how they say Trans I've got gender dysphoria is a severe severe mental illness, They call it, but but yet it takes cosmetic surgery to change it. So I don't know of too many other things that can be cured up with cosmetic surgery. [00:29:00] So is it your Do you feel like it shouldn't be in there? Or is it just quite an odd thing that's in there? It's It's just how, um labelled it. They've labelled it as something real big, and yet, but then it's cosmetic surgery because and you can't get You have to pay for the surgery yourself because it's not insured. But then you have to [00:29:30] go through this whole process of getting because it's a bit. It's a massive surgery. Then you have to go through so much to to get it. Have to have people sign you off and make sure you're stable. And hence what would you say to parents who, I guess, suspect [00:30:00] that their child is trans or even just I guess if you have a friend and you, do you think that they might be Trans What? What are some advices or good things to do to support them? Well, just put them into normal. Until that even if you know that they're trans, if they're not ready to come out, they won't come out. And so just use if it's a he form [00:30:30] an MTF, use he. And when they're ready to for you to start using, she you see, and just be more open to, um the the fact the fact of transgender and be accepting of it. So do you get quite a lot, I guess, out of being involved in trans [00:31:00] or queer communities. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of support out there, and I was really useful for you. If it wasn't for the for the support, it would be really hard because going through the transition, you need someone there if it's family or a partner, or just people from [00:31:30] the queer community supporting you and being able to tell you that you're doing a good job and being able to keep you on track because it's not really the transition, it's hard. It's more of when you start to get wobbles in life. That's when it kicks in. And then that came down. And then it just accelerates the spiral. [00:32:00] Why do you think that people who aren't trans or straight people or whatever or anyone who has a problem with it Why do you think people find it really difficult to come to terms with it? What do you think that it is that probably it's because they've never been exposed to it or they don't believe it happens and basically either ignorance or or them unknowing [00:32:30] on them or they're not wanting to accept it? And do you have any last words of kind of advice or support for any other young trans people coming to terms and accepting who they are? MM, take it at your own pace. That's there. This thing there's no set [00:33:00] of rules that you have to follow no criteria that you have to match up to you can just be yourself and take out your own pace and everyone's different. Cool, Thanks, Heaps kra.

IRN: 176
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/priscilla_penniket_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003862
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089156
TITLE: Priscilla Penniket profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Priscilla Penniket
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 1990s; 2010s; Auckland; Priscilla Penniket; Rainbow Youth; Wai Ho; education; hate crime; homophobia; school; teaching; transcript online; youth
DATE: 26 May 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Priscilla talks about working for Rainbow Youth to do homophobia education in schools. This podcast was funded by a generous donation from Roger Smith.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: This is Priscilla and Priscilla does lots of stuff. Um, some of which is working at Rainbow Youth. You want me to talk about NBU? Yeah. Why not? Um, so I'm the education coordinator at rain. You, um, that means I go and talk to students in high schools. They're generally about 15 or 16. Talk to them about sexual orientation, gender identity, homophobia, um, coming [00:00:30] out all those kinds of topics. And how do they How do they take that? Hm? Generally. Really? Really. Well, all of them take it really, really well, sometimes there's some homophobic students in the class, but they're generally just trying to be defensive. You know, maybe they're gay or whatever. Um, but yeah, they take it pretty well today in class. They seem to know a whole lot of stuff. And one of the volunteers asked them how many of them [00:01:00] know a gay person really well or something, and about half of them raise their hands. So that was really cool. And it kind of made me think I don't know about the content of the workshops and whether I don't know, like, I need to incorporate some more stuff around people knowing more gay people these days now? Um, so, yeah, they take it really well. Yeah. So would that be the specific schools in which you're going to? As in the schools that let you win, I guess. Would they be more progressive, or do [00:01:30] you think it's a kind of widespread thing where you're like, Wow, actually, society is just becoming less homophobic and lots of young people do know heaps of people, right? I guess a bit of both. Um, I do think society is becoming less homophobic. Well, I mean, if we're talking really far back in time, then obviously it wasn't homophobic because sexuality was thought about in a different way. Um, but yeah, like recent past, I think [00:02:00] we are becoming less homophobic, but it's definitely as well, quite school specific. Like you said, I think some schools the students will know a whole lot more queer people because it's not as homophobic and more people are out, so they're more likely to know them. Whereas in the schools where they think they don't, they would know them. But they just don't know they get yet because everyone isn't out. So do the schools approach you Or do you approach the schools? Um, when I first started working at Rainbow Youth a year ago, there were [00:02:30] about six schools that had had a relationship with Rainbow Youth for quite a few years. Um, around education. So they contacted me as soon as I got on the job, and that was all set up, and that was that went really well. Um, but since I've been there, we've put together a new flyer and sent it out to, um, every single school across Auckland. So about how many schools are there in 100 and 50? Um So, yes, I get really busy if they get back into it. Well, it's getting really busy already. Yeah, but we're talking about, um [00:03:00] you know, like everything at Rainbow Youth is always developing and in flux. Um, you know, changing to the needs and things like that. So we're looking at changing the education programme as we always are. But, you know, in the future it could include things like more educators at Rainbow Youth, like a team like other organisations have so a lot of stuff happening. And how did you get into this role? Have you did you Do you work before or Yeah, yeah. Um, I [00:03:30] I kind of came out publicly when I went to university and found the uni here down there like the or the So this is in Auckland or No, it's in Dunedin. Yeah, and just started volunteer volunteering with them straight away. So I think they I can't remember. It was, like, six years ago or something now, but I'm I'm pretty sure they already had groups going when I joined, but I started [00:04:00] a woman's focused like a queer women's focus group once I became a member of. So I helped with that, like, running the group and facilitating all that kind of stuff and would put on, like would help when they put on events. So it would be like the What's it called when you do like the inside stuff the, uh like when you hang the like, you decorate it, the decorating it with the decorator because it just sounds stupid. Oh, yeah. Kind of like the interior [00:04:30] design of the parties or whatever that's called. Yeah. So I I'd been involved with events and organising all that kind of shit, um, and went to conferences and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. So it wasn't he involved. And a volunteering capacity with the queer community in Dunedin. So you said you came out publicly when you joined. Was it? Is it Is it called uniq Dunedin or whatever group down there? What were you before you were publicly out? Did you know that you kind of hadn't told anyone? Or [00:05:00] So you want my coming out story? Yeah, Why not? Um, I I had a girlfriend at high school, and we were together for about 2. 5 years while I was at high school. But we didn't come out to any of our friends. And this is in Dunedin as well. No, this is in and mount. So you grew up in all over the show, so I was born in Sydney, in Newtown, which is now apparently Li. It was a very cool place there. Yeah, so that's exciting. [00:05:30] Um, and then moved to New Zealand when I was five, Grew up in Mount till I was 18, went to uni in Dunedin for five years and then moved up to Auckland, and I've been here for a year, so I had a high school. The quick synopsis. Yeah. Um, yeah. I had a girlfriend at high school. I think I was with her for, you know, like, maybe even, uh maybe like a year, [00:06:00] like with her in love with her, But didn't think I was gay like I hadn't really, like, come out to myself. Quite, I guess. Definitely hadn't come out to anyone else. Um, I hadn't told my friends, but I really wanted to talk about the relationship. So, you know, I was like in love. I want to talk about it. So I kind of made up this thing about this boyfriend that I had if I wanted to meet him. But I said he lived really far away, and just so that, like, if I could talk [00:06:30] to my friends about it. But that was really weird, like the more I think about that now and the more I because I take volunteers into the education sessions to tell their coming out stories to the students. And the more I hear people's coming out stories and the things that people go through because they all seem quite similar, just putting me in touch with the things that I went through and how fucking weird they are. Like, just I don't think non queer people can get how weird it is to do shit like that. Like making up [00:07:00] a fake boyfriend so you can talk about the problems you're having with your girlfriend. Like that's so complex. And was she at school? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she was there when you were talking about your problems. Na da da na Because Oh, no, no, no, no. She wasn't there. I'll talk about it. And like, No, she wasn't there. And so when you came out publicly in Dunedin, had you already told your parents [00:07:30] and that they know or your family, um, so was my first girlfriend. Um, my mom saw us hooking it up and accidentally, or Yeah, definitely. Accidentally. And like, uh, like we got, we got busted. Totally. And we weren't even on my property. We were on someone else's property, So my mom was shitty at me. Well, this is what I remember of it. Maybe other people, other parties of the scenario have different stories, but, [00:08:00] um, yeah, we totally got busted. And from what I remember, my mom was really shitty at me, but I think like it was, like, kind of unclear whether she was shitty, that I was hooking up with her or whether I was hooking up with somebody on somebody else's property. Um, and so it was unclear about what she was shitty about, but she was shitty. And she asked me if we were together, and I was freaked [00:08:30] out because she was shitty. So I said no. And then that was it, Which kind of worked out Well, because, you know, then she could just stay all the time. And she was just my friend. So that's, you know, quite a positive, I guess. And do you have brothers and sisters? Yeah, I've got one. Brother. Um, I, uh I can't remember what he thought about it back then, but yeah, he's Everybody's totally sweet with it now. I think that'd be well, it's funny. I was talking about this [00:09:00] this morning. I'm pretty sure they would be really, really shocked if I brought a guy home as my boyfriend. But then I was thinking, Would they like, maybe if I brought a boyfriend home, they'd be stoked like, Yeah, finally, she's straight But I doubt that, like, do you talk about it at all? Or it's just one of those not talk about things um, talk about in what capacity? Like, Yeah, we definitely talk about it like, um, it's nothing that [00:09:30] I feel uncomfortable about. Like I said, I'm pretty sure they'd be really surprised if I brought a guy home. So they just know that that's who I am. And there's definitely no weirdness around that at all. Um, definitely would bring home any partners. That's just totally normal. So was your mom kind of sweet as about queer people, gay and lesbian people? When you were growing up? Was there any messages that you kind of got from? Well, when we when we were in Australia or like my brother's godmother, [00:10:00] is, um, like this transgendered person? And I think they hung out with, like, Yeah, the queer community heaps. I think maybe before you were born like that was like their social circle, I think, is my impression from what they've told me, Um, and my dad's made like a documentary called Man and a woman he made in the eighties, and it's screened in cinemas and stuff so, yeah. Seems like this massive of history, but like my [00:10:30] mom and dad split when I was five. So I grew up with my mom and my stepdad, and, nah, they didn't like, they didn't have a queer community of friends then, but they didn't kind of say really homophobic things, and no, they didn't. Yeah, that is good. They didn't say homophobic things. I do remember, though, watching the top twins on the TV, and I don't Yeah, because this is the thing. I was grossed out by them. Whereas obviously now I just think they're, like, fucking amazing. [00:11:00] But I was really grossed out by them. And I think, you know, obviously when you're young, you're like a product of your environment or whatever. So surely there must have been some kind of weird vibe towards Maybe it's, I don't know, people doing stuff, um, attitudes there. Yeah, right. High school was definitely not cool to be gay. Definitely not. I went to an all girls school, and there was supposedly this group of lesbians there that, like, apparently they sat behind [00:11:30] I don't know, you know, like K block or some shit like that. That's where they sit and there's like, four of them and they're like vampire lesbians and they suck each other's blood and stuff like this. So that was the only kind of thing that was around at my school about gay woman. So, you know, it wasn't something you want to associate with these vampire lesbians that are the real goth. And, you know, like it wasn't me. Um, yeah, and if someone like it was definitely [00:12:00] that finger pointing thing of like it was the like, you know, it's like people. It's like, pretty sure even the straight girls would be scared that someone would point the finger at them and call them a lesbian. It's like everyone felt. I'm sure this isn't just me, but I'm pretty sure it's like it'd be the worst thing to be called a lesbian, and you kind of like live in fear that someone's gonna call you that, and then other people might believe it, and then you're going to be the lesbian, and then everybody's Everyone's [00:12:30] not gonna want to get changed near you in the changing room and shit like that, so coming out of high school is definitely not an option. No, but thinking about it now, like I don't know. I mean, I. I was friends with everybody. It's not like like I think it would have maybe been fine. May maybe. I don't know. My mom also went to the school, so I didn't. This is another thing that I heard in a volunteer story as well. This idea about not wanting to shame her. That's how this volunteer said it. And yeah, that [00:13:00] resonated with me. So is it just quite free ability to not embarrass her at school? So is it kind of just freeing because you, I guess when you're at your university, your mom wasn't there, but also, I guess, moving away from everyone. Did it kind of free you to feel that you could come out there totally? And did you struggle with it in yourself? Or it was just a few. The social situations changed so it can come out. Or did she she feel happier about being queer? Or I think it was just a social situation that had changed. Um, [00:13:30] because I met my first other queer woman in seventh form. That was not my girlfriend. Um, and we went and visited her and and me and my girlfriend and she had all these queer friends and I was just like, Oh my God, these other lesbians, like I just seriously thought there were no other lesbians in the whole world. I think, apart from the top twins, I didn't know they were a lesbian. That that happened when, like, I saw them on TV when I was, you know, like, 10 or whatever. [00:14:00] And I was really confused and like That's like another thing as well. I think I was the bully at school like the homophobic bully. Oh, no, I had homophobia phobia. So maybe your education staff is trying to undo all of that. Totally. I totally say that when I'm in class, Yeah, because I went because, like, one of the terms I describe in the workshops is homophobia, which is their fear around encountering homophobia yourself. [00:14:30] So, like acting out and whatever way that is because you're scared that you're going to get bullied in a homophobic way. So that's what I was saying at school, like I was so scared of people going to say that I was gay and I was gay and I didn't want anyone to know. So I would police other people's sexuality so that no one would police mine. Yeah, I mean, it's fucked. It's that power dynamic thing. But I thought if I had power, then nobody can have power over me. Oh, dear. Yeah, Things have changed for you, then. [00:15:00] Yes, yes, very much so. So what's it like being queer now? I guess your job plays a big part of that. But do you encounter homophobia today in these days and now and that kind of thing, or are you quite chipper chipper as a queer person in the world? A good question? Well, yeah, I feel pretty chipper, but, um, yeah, I do encounter homophobia, too. So both of them, um, [00:15:30] I run in queer circles. I think I'm realising more and more like whenever I hang out with not queer people. I'm like, Whoa, this is different. Not as in. I never interact with straight people. Not that at all. But just like I take for granted that the communities I'm in are queer in one way or another, but pretty much queer. Um, so whenever I'm hanging out [00:16:00] in scenarios that aren't queer, um I feel really weird. And I'd call that homophobia. Yeah, as in I feel weird looking confessed. Um, I think that's homophobia, because the weird feeling is coming from I don't feel like it's coming from myself because I have deconstructed my homophobia pretty much. I think, uh, I think there's still [00:16:30] a few things I probably need to deconstruct working on those. But, um, majority, like my general view of being queer, is pretty positive. So when I'm feeling abnormal, I know that it's not coming from me. So is it mostly a feeling or people said stuff? Or is it a look or an assumption? Or, um, it's like an ignorance, I think is what it is ignorance for me because, like especially this is this is what has [00:17:00] changed for me becoming an educator, I've become way less cynical, which I think is really nice. Not that I was ever, like, really cynical. What about it? But it has made you less cynical, as in Well, change is possible kind of thing. Or, as in, um, you know, I'm trying to teach about homophobia and the ways that it happens, and I've realised, you know, because I really wanna. I really care about my job and I wanna do it like it's my passion. It's not just something I'm doing. [00:17:30] I'm doing it because I feel like it's going to make some difference. And I want it to be really effective. And you know, I don't I'm not trying to, like, make homophobic people feel bad. I'm trying to let homophobic people know that what they're doing is hurting people. And out of that, I, for some reason come to this point where I feel like all homophobia doesn't really come from a place of people trying to be mean. I [00:18:00] feel like it's coming from a place or many places, but all of them are just ignorant, like either the person being mean doesn't know any gay people. So they've got all these weird stereotypes that they're perpetuating and putting on to people, you know, and that's homophobia. But it's just because they don't know anybody they don't know any better or like I was, they're scared that they're gonna get bullied so they bully people, which just also comes from fear, you know, just like all these things that can be [00:18:30] really easily changed through compassion. I feel it just sounded really funny. It sounds really funny. It's not funny, but I just feel like giving compassion is the way to make things change. So I try and do that in the workshops. So what? So obviously homophobia you'd like to change in society? Are there other things that you can kind of see in society that you you'd like to change? I mean, no, you personally, but in general, society to shift [00:19:00] towards or well, yeah, I think that's where I was heading with it, like homophobia coming from ignorance. So an example of me feeling abnormal in places is if people don't know anything about being queer or even like being in being in an environment where I I'll say OK, like for an example, I was at a party on the weekend on Sunday or something. And talking to this person about some interesting stuff [00:19:30] and then I I said something like about a party with all women or something, and then they were like, Oh, OK, really? And then I was like, Well, yeah, I think we were talking about comfort levels or something, and I was like, Well, yeah, I I generally feel pretty fucking comfortable because I think there were heaps of people there that I didn't feel comfortable around. And we started talking about that for some reason. And then I was like, he was like, Well, what do you generally need to feel comfortable or something? And I thought that was weird anyway, [00:20:00] But then I was like, Well, probably if it's like a room of women, I'm probably gonna feel pretty comfortable. And then he was like, Oh, really? And then I was like, Well, yeah, I. I mean, I guess it depends on the woman, but yeah, probably. And then he was like, Oh, OK, what are the scenarios? And then I was like, Well, I feel really comfortable in queer environments. And then he was, like, queer. And then I was like, Yeah, well, like I'm queer. And then he was like, [00:20:30] You're queer as in Like he just did not understand why I was saying that I was queer, as in I was calling myself odd or something like that. Like he just didn't He didn't know it was a reclaimed tomb. No, he didn't. He didn't know anything about it at all. and feel like, I guess, having more compassion in some areas of my life. I have way less compassion in other areas now, like I can't be an educator [00:21:00] at work and educate in my personal private life. And then he and then he was like, and then I was like, Oh, sorry, man, I just can't explain this to you. Like I don't wanna have to explain this to you right now. And then he was like, Oh, OK. And what do I so for me, that's an example of homophobia. And when people hear that, I think that that is homophobic behaviour. They think I'm this fucking like, staunch [00:21:30] weirdo queer activist who just is pointing the homophobic finger at everybody who does anything that is anything slightly whatever. But I feel like if people were to take on the idea that homophobia comes from ignorance, that it's not necessarily people trying to be mean. But a lack of information is the same, just like with racism, if you're gonna say something and it's really racist, but you haven't even thought about it and you weren't trying to be mean. That doesn't mean what you did isn't racist and I feel [00:22:00] like it's the same with homophobia like, Yeah, he doesn't know any better And he's just trying to learn. But I don't want to fucking teach him like he should go learn himself. And I found it offensive, and I think it's homophobic. Those are not my grand next, Christian. So, do you see yourself working? I guess in the community sector, or doing kind of community work and education for a very, very long time, Or is there a bunch of other stuff you'd like to do? [00:22:30] Um, yeah. There's heaps of other stuff I want to do. Um, I think I'd Feminism is really important to me. Um, I think at some point in my life, I'd like to be known something similar to this. But in like the realm of feminism, like, more focused on feminism than queer activism. Um, is there a lot of crossover war? Yeah. Yeah, I feel like there is, but as well, like, I mean, I often talk [00:23:00] about sexism sneaky in the Queer workshop and also talk a lot about racism. Like I try and get it all in there, but there's only an hour, and the focus is queer stuff. So the topics are things like coming out levels of homophobia, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I feel like there could be a parallel workshop on sexism. Um, So what would you say to people who say, Oh, we've We've done feminism. It happened in the seventies and eighties, right? [00:23:30] Um, but that too large a question, I guess it's still relevant or it's still important to you. And what parts are important for you, right? Oh, yeah. I guess that crossover stuff you're talking about Yeah, like gender stereotypes, obviously are a big thing within feminism and queer activism. Um, yeah, similarly, with sexual orientation, I guess, like people feeling like they might need to be in a box. People not knowing heaps of options [00:24:00] People like, I think, an example of of all that kind of stuff, a sign that there needs to be work is when somebody finds a label and feels huge relief through a label. I think that's an example that there's inequality and that there needs to be work. So did you have a lot of relief in finding feminism? Oh, my gosh. I found so much relief. And where did you. Where did the biggest of my [00:24:30] life, like, more so than becoming queer, I think. I don't know. Yeah. No, I think I do. Yeah. Top five relief scenarios. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I've had a lot of relief scenarios, so I'm really into into labels at the moment, actually. What label are you? I don't know. All right. We'll bypass that one. So how did you When did you find feminism, or how did it find you or what was relieving about it? [00:25:00] Well, I took, um when I was studying in Dunedin, I studied gender studies, um, as one degree through a B a in psychology, um, as a bachelor of science and then did my honours in gender studies. So in terms of this job, it's also perfect. Like, that's a bit of background that I have for that as well as the volunteering. But I found feminism through gender studies. Yeah, I took, um because then seventh form I took all sciences and all maths and and [00:25:30] totally loved it and did really well. And then once I got to uni took the same basically in my first semester, but then wanted to check in some other papers, you know, Check them out. Um, so I took sociology, like one sociology paper and one gender paper. And I took the gender paper because it had the word sexuality and the title, and I thought, Oh, my God. There might be some lesbians in that class, And so you had ulterior motives, total ulterior motives, [00:26:00] and then it just totally made the path of my life. You know? So thus far, you know, like because you found the lesbians and because you took No, there weren't any lesbians in the class, I thought. But Well, it turns out one of my girlfriends after that was in my class, but yeah, no, I Well, I think there are a whole lot of queer women in that class, but I didn't notice, and nobody said they were a lesbian. Not like there's all the opportunities to do that when you're in [00:26:30] a lecture. So it was a big relief when you discovered feminism. Yeah, um, I think the main thing for me, actually, when I first came across feminism was about because II I mean, it might change, but I feel like I'm one of those women that are often portrayed in movies as really ditzy. Like I go [00:27:00] up at the end of my sentences. When I say stuff I get Go, I say totally, a lot. I zone out quite a bit when I'm trying to think about stuff. I like to wear certain things in certain ways sometimes, you know, and I think those kind of women are always slagged off in movies. And for me, feminism was about, like, being proud to be whoever you are. And I guess being proud to be a woman like, I find it hard to say, being proud to be a woman because I thinking [00:27:30] about gender at the moment. But, um, when I first came across feminism, it was amazing to feel really positive about being a woman. Yeah, so that was a kind of a big relief for you to kind of be like, Cool. I can I can be this way. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, definitely. And kind of just, um I mean, heaps of it was theoretical, too. Like I loved the mind trip that it took me on which, um [00:28:00] it was like the first alternative world that I came across, actually, feminism, like realising that you can have different lifestyles. I learned about that through feminism and realising that you could think about things in a different way, like Conceptualise life in a different way. And that language is constructed like I learned that the concept of deconstructing stuff through feminism. So, yeah, that was massive for me, because that's [00:28:30] what that that's how my mind works now. Like it kind of, um, formed my mind. Feminism formed my mind. Yeah, so it feels nice, Um, and as well, it kind of, um, learning to deconstruct stuff. I could deconstruct the fucked up shit that had happened in my life from a place of strength. Um, you know, not from a place of, like, victimhood or like angriness or I mean, obviously I love being angry, and I think that's really great. It's [00:29:00] a good step, but, um, not just taking shit and not just, um I don't know, letting people say stupid ideas that make you feel weird. Feminism allowed me to realise that I'm feeling weird when people do certain things and gave me the strength to speak up. Yeah, because I'd always been really outspoken, but I'd never had anything to back me up of why What people were doing was making me feel dumb. Yeah, well, [00:29:30] that's pretty cool. And also it just like it's totally constructed my analysis of the world like I can't like. I see everything through feminism now, Like when I see people interact. I look at the dynamics through that lens, Um, and just Yeah, like all kind of topics. I think for me, like whenever I'm learning about something new like I wrote recently, this thing about, um, the anarchist feminist to me that I went to that had a theme of decolonization, [00:30:00] um, anti racism. And I was writing up about the experience and saying How for me learning about that and having ongoing learning around that I'm always bringing it back to feminism? Like, whenever I'm trying to learn something new, I bring it back to my analysis of the world that I have through feminism and how, like, the the way the structure, how structures work. That, um, seem to inherently [00:30:30] at the moment, um, privileged men over women, uh, and applying it to other topics and other areas where people are underprivileged. So relating that to queer communities, That's a good transition. Um, how do you kind of see, I guess maybe we'll talk about Auckland or maybe New Zealand. How do you see queer communities and where we we're kind of at with that [00:31:00] stuff and where you'd like to see it pushed or hid, Or is it all just trembling along rather nicely and doing a happy job? Um, I love the queer community. Um, if I didn't, I guess I wouldn't be able to hang out in it all the time. Is it the people? Kind of, I guess in Auckland. Kind of bars and pubs and socialising and events or the whole lot. What that I love or like What's there? Is [00:31:30] it is it Do the people you meet through Rainbow Youth you really love that aspect or you love the whole lot of partying and there being queer visibility events or Well, I like, I think, Yeah, that concept of queer communities, like with the S on the end. I guess that is kind of relevant in terms of just like, you know, that homogenising of any kind of subculture. Um, like thinking I don't know, all [00:32:00] gay people are the same and they're not. So there's gonna be subcultures within the queer community. Um, and I don't like all of those aspects. Like, I don't know. I'm not into chess. Maybe there's a queer chess group or something. I'm not going to go to that. I mean, I like chess, but I don't have time for it at the moment. And, um, I'm not actually that good at it. And I probably have forgotten the rules, so I'm not going to go to that. [00:32:30] And I don't know, like in the part like in Dunedin. And I was on the queer soccer team, the queer women's soccer team, and had a few goes at the Quest softball, but wasn't that good. So, you know, like I'm into sport, but I'm not actually really into sport right now. At the moment, I like exercising, though, and bars and pubs as visible focal points a lot of the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it [00:33:00] is I I actually found in Dunedin. The Quest sports stuff was quite big, actually, and I don't know, see, I was doing the uni stuff that wasn't necessarily always bar focused, so that's cool. But that's all kind of well I mean, the sports stuff was more middle aged queer people. Um, the uni stuff is obviously more young people. Um, but yeah, there's a definitely a focus on, like, drinking and stuff like that. And [00:33:30] I find, I mean, I haven't travelled to heaps of queer cities around the world or anything, but yeah, I definitely get a sense that New Zealand's queer scene just because of the size of our population, you know, it isn't massive. And so the sub the sub scenes within the queer scene are like, really tiny, and so they haven't developed into, you know, really cranking scenes and all the different kind of, I don't know, genres of whatever you want [00:34:00] to do. Um, so but you enjoy them nonetheless. Totally. Yeah. And do you find them? Do you see them as really supportive of of young people and education and awareness and that kind of thing? Hm? At a youth, I think we've done a really good job there to create awesome events and social gatherings like weekly Multiple ones weekly, like there's six groups or something going at the moment where yeah, they get together. [00:34:30] They have heaps of fun. They start new groups If they want to have new groups like, I don't know, animation nights and stuff where they all learn how to animate and stuff like that. Like on paper, I mean, not their face or whatever. I don't know, But, um so yeah, they do heaps of fun stuff, and I think they totally love it. I don't go to any of the groups as a participant, but they all seem to be super into it. Make really good friendships. The group for under Eighteens. There's like 40 members in that group [00:35:00] now, and that's just going to get bigger because all these kids are coming out of high school now, which is so cool. Um, yeah, so I feel like there's a focus there away from alcohol, but I feel like that's pretty unique. Um, having Reed, you here in Auckland, Um, the the bar scene like, Yeah, that's kind of what I was meaning with the sub scenes. Like I do like going like because the candy bar up here is just open, and it's like a woman's a queer woman's bar, like for like, [00:35:30] it wasn't something like for women, but for everybody or some shit. I don't know, like anybody can go, but it's woman focused and yeah, like I love being around. I love being in, like, more woman focused spaces, um, with like, but the thing I like. Well, like I like gender variant in those spaces. But I like the vibe of there being heaps of queer women all there, [00:36:00] and that's really exciting. So I love going to candy. When? When? I don't know when. There's certain things on that I like again. I'm not going to go there every night that it's open because it's open, like four nights a week, which is pretty sweet for a queer woman's bath. Like in my mind. That's pretty amazing, because we don't have that. I don't think we even have a queer bar in Dunedin. But, um, I'm like, I only go when I know who's playing and what kind of music he is gonna play, because I [00:36:30] I guess I'm kind of snobby with my music. Maybe I don't know, but like there's heaps of music I don't like, and I'm not just going to go to a gay woman's bar and listen to shit music, and I don't know, like, just be there because it's queer and it's for women like I'm not going to do that. But if there's if there's really wicked music and I'm going to have a good night, then I love it that that space exists. Yeah, but I feel like, Yeah, I feel like it's exciting [00:37:00] the idea of those scenes developing into more specific scenes so that you can actually go to something where more parts of yourself are going to be acknowledged and present, as opposed to just your sexuality being there. Yeah, cool. Thanks, Priscilla.

IRN: 212
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/kerry_brown_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003863
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089157
TITLE: Kerry Brown profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Kerry Brown
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Christchurch; Kerry Brown; North Canterbury; Roger Smith; Wai Ho; Wellington; coming out; gay; hate crime; homophobia; profile; transcript online; youth
DATE: 11 June 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So I'm here with Kerry. Did you go from Wellington? No. In North Canterbury Waak Beach, which is a tiny little town, maybe a half hour drive north of Christchurch. And so what are the stereotypes about Christchurch and around North Canterbury and growing up there? Um well, I suppose when people hear that you're from a, um, a small town, they assume that you've, um uh that you've experienced [00:00:30] a lot of homophobia, and I suppose I did to a point. Um, but because I wasn't, um because I wasn't out. Then I, uh um I avoided a lot of that. In fact, my the, um the most, um disturbing. Um uh, Well, um, my experience, my most intense experience of homophobia, was in Wellington when, um, a friend of mine was beaten up, [00:01:00] so Yeah, and I guess that was because I was, um we were we were in a group that were out and proud, and so we're a target, whereas in or in And, um, I was desperately trying to go under the radar. Yeah. So did you come out once you left north Canterbury, or, um, coming to Wellington for me was, um, go, uh definitely [00:01:30] leading up to it. I was I had envisioned, um, that Wellington was a place I was going to come to and sort of find myself and come out. Um, and I would discover my community or my people. And, um so with, um, with that in mind, I, um I sort of knew that I was coming to Wellington to come out. And, um, yeah, when you were growing up in North Canterbury, did you know that you were queer or gay? Or how [00:02:00] do you identify I? I identify as gay? Um, I definitely I had come out to, um maybe, um, in my sixth form year to one friend and then, um, the at the end of that year, another friend and then I paced a sort of friend at a time. So, um, quite a few of my friends knew, but, um, I hadn't had a conversation with my family or, um yeah, [00:02:30] about it until I moved to Wellington. And then I lived with my uncle for, um for about half a year. And that's when I came out, I guess. And were your friends reactions? Good. Um, what were some of the responses my, my, um my first friend that I came out to she, um And this is this goes for a lot of my friends, actually. And my parents, um, my mom especially made [00:03:00] it very clear whenever, um, a queer related news item came on the radio or the television. Um, she would, um, make her, um, opinion very clear in support of it, I think for my benefit, Um, try to open up a conversation. Um, though I never pounced on the opportunity. And, um, my friend Holly who I was it helpful. Um, even though you kind of never pounced, was it good to kind of know what [00:03:30] her opinions were? Or were you, like, weird? Um, it it was good. My mom's interesting because I always knew that it was never going to be an issue with her like, um, but maybe she was one of the most difficult people to come out to, in a way, because II, I I'm very close with her, I suppose, Um, having that conversation with her would for me was finally addressing it fully for myself as well. [00:04:00] So, um, in that way, it was difficult, but, um, it there was no doubt in my mind that she would, um, that, you know, she was going to I. I knew she wasn't going to discard me or feel any differently about me or anything like that. Yeah, And you're the first friend you came out to. Um, she said the same thing. We never like. Um, she would always, uh, um start conversations about queer stuff. And, um, [00:04:30] and try try to bait me, I guess. But, um, it took it took, uh, quite a traumatic experience for me with a, um I suppose a boyfriend, Um, where I was really, really in need of support. Um, uh, yeah, it took that for me to, um, talk to her about it, and we went, um, we were always her and I were always bunking classes, and we went to the end of the sports field and sat behind this ruined, [00:05:00] um, wall and, uh, and, like, I held hands. And, like everyone has a similar story, I guess. Um, and, um, Polly, um, Holly and Polly, my two friends I first came out with, um, in a similar circumstance, She, um she realised I was really upset about something and um needed and wanted to talk to me about [00:05:30] it. And so, um, I invited her over and had another really, um, pain to, like, lead up to, like, talking to her about it. I think I said, um, Polly, is there anything that I could, um, say to you that would make you like me less or make you hate me and which I suppose is what I was most paranoid about? Um and she said, if, um, if you said something mean about my dad, [00:06:00] and I was like, Well, it's not I'm not going to do that. But I'm gay. And she Yeah, she, um Poly is a really wonderful friend because she's, um so Earnest and, um, straight up and I. I knew I could, um, on her to, uh um, to not, you know, not tell anyone. And the same with Holly. I, um I chose my friends, um, [00:06:30] who I could really, really trust in initially. And then, um, once, I, um, was more confident with it. I, um I was a bit more frivolous with who I told him. So you first came out to your first person, I guess, um, in sixth form. Did you know before then? Yeah, It's interesting, because I'm I'm sure. Um yeah, It's, um I have trouble in, um, [00:07:00] picturing or remembering when I when I first sort of knew. But I know that, um, I do remember when I was very young, um, telling my mom I wish I was a girl, so I could wear pink pyjamas and and being, like, utterly obsessed with mermaids. Um, but then I Then it sort of I don't know. Um I think, uh, I can remember thinking. I, um I can remember driving back from Christchurch one [00:07:30] evening and and having heard some statistic about, you know, one in 10 men are gay, And I remember thinking it would just be my luck that I was that 1 10 guys. And but but almost like, um, almost thinking that it would, you know, like it just seems so, um, so unrealistic that that would even happen to me, like I can. Um, yeah. And then, [00:08:00] um then I guess when puberty hit, it was pretty a pretty hormonal time. So I was, um um I was having, um, fantasies about, um, women and men. And then once, um I. I don't know. Once my hormone settled, it was definitely, um I definitely knew that I. I sort of tricked myself. Um, initially I was like, Right. I think I'm, um, some kind of bisexual, but I, um And maybe I'll experiment [00:08:30] with men, but I'm definitely like I want I want a family. Um, ya ya ya. So I'm definitely with a woman, but as, um as I, I guess I was just easing myself into, um, you know, I, I totally identify as gay. Yeah. Although, um, my, um, in my family, um uh, an auntie, for instance, identified as lesbian and then, um, flipped. So [00:09:00] did, apparently quite a few members of my family. So, um, who knows? There's a potential that you might have to come out to everybody. Uh, my, um when I came up to my grandma, she, um, was really, really cute. She said to me that she had had passions for women as well. Yeah, that was actually a really lovely conversation to have, because she, um, initiated [00:09:30] it. And, um, so, um, I was like, uh, she came into my room and I was asleep, and she sat on my bed. And I knew something. I knew she wanted to talk about something because she was, um she didn't pretend to be asleep. No, I was pretty groggy, though, Like, um, she I can't remember how she, um, spearheaded the conversation, but we were talking about it, and she just said that she wanted me to make sure that I knew what I wanted. And, um, [00:10:00] that, uh I think probably she was really concerned that I I would have a hard life. Um, as a gay person. Probably. Um, from what she experienced growing up. But then, yeah. Then she said that, um, she she loved me no matter what and that she had passion for women that she gave me $20. And, um, yeah, it was really sweet. She cried a little bit and then gave me the $20 [00:10:30] was like coming out to everyone was as lucrative as, you know, if you got 20 bucks to everybody who came out, it would be great. Yeah. So you moved to Wellington, Kind of. Was it a bit like gay mecca or queer me or something? And what did you find when you got here? Community wise or people wise. Well, I, um, as I said, I, I wanted to be, um, I. I guess [00:11:00] it was sort of a metamorphosis. I wanted to be, um, gay from the get go and which I suppose is unrealistic. Um, in some ways, and, uh, I decided I wanted to dress differently. II, I think, um, II I just jumped really wholeheartedly into it. I was wearing eyeliner. And what did you wear like or something? I. I don't know. I like, um my My dad's a bit of, um you know, like, flat shirts, [00:11:30] like we're a hunting family, like Oh, yeah. So you trade your flannel shirt in for some eyeliner. Bright colours. I think this t-shirt that I'm wearing right now is one of the first things I bought. And I bought this, um, purple jersey, Um, and but that that actually that, um, item that I sort of, um, for me, represented by coming out with this, um, bright pink hoodie [00:12:00] with stars all over it, and, um, I like I was just in love with it. I was like, This is symbolic of my metamorphosis. Did you feel like a mermaid? Maybe not a mermaid. So, um yeah, maybe a little bit like a anyway, um, this that I met a gay guy at Massey where I was studying, Um, and he invited me to a party, and I knew it was going to be a gay [00:12:30] party and there were going to be gay people there. And, um, I knew I was going to win my But I was really excited. And I went. I took a friend with me to this party wearing the hoodie, and I was I sort of, like, walked in with my friend who was a girl, And we were I was just sort of hovering and really in awe of everything. And then this person, this guy came up to me and, um said, Oh, God, he said to me, Were you a birthday [00:13:00] cake in another life? And he like, he was like, he snarled, It was so horrible, like, and I was like, What do you mean? And like, he just sort of looked at me and I was like, my hoodie and he just sort of like, rolled his eyes and walked away from me, and that was really, really disappointing. I sort of like, um, uh, it was a bit of a crisis point for me, because I I was expecting this community and my people, and it's exactly Yeah, that was quite traumatising [00:13:30] and I. I didn't I? Then I sort of, um I, um I made friends with, um, queer friendly people and and my studies, but not, um, gay people. And I spent maybe a year in that sort of community of people the theatre to, um, sort of before I, um, uh, even really properly started going to gay bars and making gay friends and, [00:14:00] um yeah, I. I suppose eventually I did find my people, but it wasn't as, um it wasn't as instantaneous as I thought it would be arriving in Wellington. Yeah. So how do you feel about your people now, or the community or communities now in Wellington? Um, I'm, um I'm really, uh, privileged in that. I'm I'm surrounded by a really incredible, [00:14:30] um, incredible, uh, strong, passionate, queer, queer people. And actually, there's just so much variety like, um, there's so much to celebrate within our community, and I think it's a wonderful Yeah. So do you think that if, um, if a young man from north can turned up at one of the parties or gay parties you were at. Do you think they get hassled about wearing a bright pink [00:15:00] hoodie on potentially? Um, I, uh I actually I. I don't know if I'm friends with any of the people that I met at that party. Or, um, with that person in particular. I, I can't actually remember who it was. Um, I think like any, um, any circle of people or any, um, sphere you go into you're gonna, um, not click with people, um, and probably experience hostility [00:15:30] for, like, for a million reasons. Um, maybe he had a traumatic experience with the colour pink. Totally. Yeah. Totally. And I think, um, maybe, um, because it was, uh, so flamboyantly gay. Maybe he had an issue with it. Um, which I know, Um, people do, Um, which I maybe stems from, um, insecurities. Uh, which [00:16:00] is, um, I guess maybe just a place where, um uh we are at as a society, which is, um, not very nice, but I'm I'm sure, like I you know this all working through it. This is what I'm trying to say. Can you talk a little bit more about gay stereotypes and how that does it impact on you, or you? Um, it's kind of out there, you know, it exists, but it it impacts me and that I get really upset when, um [00:16:30] when, um a particular stereotype or I guess, or, um is targeted with hostility. Um, I that that really bugs me. I don't know. Like, um, uh, um, there's just a lot of negative. Um, maybe there's not a lot, but you definitely hear negative talk about maybe, um, drag queens or, um uh, sometimes people I don't know if it's, um, meant to be in good humour, [00:17:00] but chuck around, um, not very nice thing about drag queens or lesbians or, um, maybe even, uh, the party boy sort of look. But I think, um, uh, you know, there's, um, some scorn around that I i What I think is that, um, with, uh, with, um, drag queens and with, um, people that are really outwardly queer that, um, [00:17:30] I really super admire that because, um, they it takes a lot of courage to be visible. And and it's those people that are gonna have be be targeted with, um, with homophobia and with hostility. And it it it's Yeah, it just takes a lot of courage to be visible, I think. And it's by doing that. They're serving like our entire community. And I really admire that. [00:18:00] Um, yeah. And I think it's just such a shame that when you see on maybe Internet forums or, um aye, anywhere. Really? Um, when within our community, there's there's hate speak. Yeah. Where do you think that comes from? Um, maybe it's that I know that I really struggled with a sense of identity, Um, growing up. And so, um, maybe [00:18:30] when people, um, finally, um, have the the, um, the courage to be who they are. They, um, see that as, um, a really narrow um uh, what's the word? Um, if you don't fit a certain, um, fit in a certain category or you draw attention to yourself or, um, whatever, um, people might be hostile, and they don't They they [00:19:00] feel that you're representing them. Oh, that's OK. Just to get out. Do you know Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I, um I I can understand. Like when When I was struggling with um, my sense of identity. I was like, Well, why are they be behaving like that? Like that? Um, that's not doing me any favours by, like, being so flamboyant or like or whatever, but, um, and And maybe it's just in more recently when, um, I've [00:19:30] had the privilege of being involved in more, um, and, like, things like, um, like you and, um, forums of a discussion of, um had the opportunity to do a lot of learning And, um, and a lot of self reflection. And yeah, so is this stuff about Wellington's Queer Communities or queer community? Um, that you'd like to see change or like it to shuffle towards or, um, just happy doing its thing? [00:20:00] Yeah. I, I suppose I, um I would like that. I would like there to be a lot of, um, more more celebration of variety within our community. Um and, um, more uh, um, tolerance of variety within our community. Um, um, maybe, um, [00:20:30] that just it has to do with, um the the time that we're in that, um, because I suppose it's in the last sort of 20 years that people, um that queer people have been able to, um, sort of, um, be more, um, present and be more visible. So there there's gonna be some growing pains, and we as, um as a people for working things out. And, [00:21:00] yeah, how do you find other queer people or gay people in Wellington? Is it just around bars and nightclubs or, um, we've just got a group of friends that kind of Yeah, it's, um, I I the the circle in in which I sort of operate Now, I was introduced through a friend. I went to drama school with, [00:21:30] um and but I There's, um I'm sure there's lots of entry points. Um, sure is the gave us. I know that's not everyone's sort of thing. It's not, um, I. I really struggle with, um, striking up conversations and gave us um and yeah, I suppose, um, there, uh, once there are so many things actually going [00:22:00] on in the community that if, um, um, maybe, uh, I can't even actually remember any of the names. Now, if you look in the gay newspapers or on the websites and things or, um uh, you can sort of these film festivals and, yeah, stuff like that Um, yeah, I just found my injury point through friendships. So you socialise, and you have your kind of circle of of queer friends and stuff that you do and that kind of thing. [00:22:30] Do you do other stuff kind of community work within queer community or, um, yeah, I've, um it's, um, been quite important to me to sort of get involved. I've, um And there's a lot of opportunity for that, uh, to volunteer for things. Um, I have I did face painting at, um, out on the square. And I've done really mundane things like rap condoms, and [00:23:00] but useful and important. Um, and that that's really fun as well, because, um, that that was in the, um, putting condoms and packets was, um, in prep for out of the square as well. And it's, um that was really fun and that you got to sort of sit down and do repetitive tasks with people and just chat. Um, I've also been involved in uni, which, um, actually is a perfect way to meet people. Like I believe I [00:23:30] overlooked that before. Um, if you're a student, um, uni, which is sort of a, um a, um uh, you know, um, Victoria based, um, social group for queer people. And there's just evening movie evenings or lots of, um uh, social events. Um, I got involved in some queer mentoring, um, through uni as well. [00:24:00] Uh, and some mentoring with BG I which, um, isn't, um, queer related. But, um, I did a lot of useful learning that that has will serve me and other in queer areas as well. Through that, Um, yeah. So there's a lot of kind of, I guess that would be quite a supportive role. And so you hear people today and they say things like, Oh, well, you know, homosexual law reform [00:24:30] was ages ago. Blah, blah, blah. Um, is there? Yeah. Is there still a need for queer support? And is this still homophobia? Um, totally, Uh um, especially at the sort of youth level. Like if you're supporting the youth, you're empowering them to, um to, um have well-being and to be, um and and like in every area of their life, not just their, um, how how they identify. [00:25:00] But, um, I just think it's so important that at when, um with young people to make sure that they have it? Um, yeah, they They're just so empowered to feel good about themselves. And no matter, like, no matter what, whether they um, yeah, you said a while back earlier on in the interview that when you were going through puberty or hormonal, you were You were kind of liking liking boys and [00:25:30] girls or men and women. And part of that was about with the woman, at least was was about families. Do you still was that still relevant? Now, do you still think about families now, or, um, yeah, I, uh it's, uh, um um, a subject that I sort of I know a lot of thinking about. And I may I may, um I, I don't struggle with it, but, um, I'm always sort of, um my opinion is always sort of changing. I know that if, um, if I [00:26:00] want a family like I, I know I can have a family. I just, um I know that it it'll be different. Um, all right. There's a play called, um cherish by, um I can't remember his name, but it was, um, a local writer. And it was it, um, circa theatre. And it's, um it's sort of about and [00:26:30] that I think maybe with our generation in particular with my generation, there's a sense that you can get whatever you want. And, um, and maybe within, um, older generations, Um, there there's, um, a sense of like you You can't always get what you want, which is the light of the play, which is a rolling stones. Um, but, um, and I think that there's a, um there's a balance with it. And there's, um I I've [00:27:00] after reading that play I found found it quite a traumatic experience. And I was really, um, upset that, um that I wouldn't be able to, you know, and this might not be able to get exactly what I want. But, um, the the whole point of of the play was, um, that you should, um, cherish, uh, the, um these maybe things that, um, you don't have access to or that you're denied because they shape you. And, um and, um, [00:27:30] that while I might not be able to, um, have the, um the, uh the vision of a family that I, um that I grew up wanting, um, I'm I can have, um something very similar to that. And which is, um um um maybe I I'm not I'm not articulating myself here really special in its own way, I guess. And yeah. Yes. Cool. [00:28:00] So what are your plans in the next? Maybe it's premature, but kind of plans for the future. Do you have to stay in Wellington and continue kind of community stuff or Yeah, totally. Um, are you going to go to Hollywood and be a mermaid? I haven't. I've never um maybe that's something I should look into in the near future. Dressing up as a mermaid and loving out my childhood. Um, I I'm always, um, [00:28:30] wanting to be more involved in, um, queer stuff. Like, um, uh, when I went when I sort of, um, got in when I was able to attend, and far out was that 2008. It was a while ago. I can't actually remember when it was, um, that was, uh, um, something that I, um that I always remember And, um, things like that that they're just [00:29:00] so empowering and so good for, um, your spirit and for your well being. Um, I don't think I even if I do a flip and become straight like, um, apparently I have the potential to, um Well, I think even if I, um, I'm always going to be queer if whether I'm, um in a, um, a heterosexual relationship [00:29:30] or not. And, um, even if I, um, I, um, did become, um, II, I was, um, wanted to be with someone a woman. I think I would always want to be involved in the really involved in the queer community. And I would always identify as being queer. It's I'm just It's something that I, um that I really cherish. Yeah, and something that I really try to celebrate in my life.

IRN: 480
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/intergenerational_talk.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003864
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089158
TITLE: Intergenerational talk - Charlotte Museum
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Aorewa Mcleod; Jules Radford-Poupard; Phoebe Balle
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aorewa Mcleod; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Charlotte Museum; Jules Radford-Poupard; Phoebe Balle; Rainbow Youth; elders; gay ladies; intergenerational; lesbian; youth
DATE: 24 July 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Charlotte Museum, 8A Bentinck Street, New Lynn, Auckland
CONTEXT: Audio from an intergenerational queer women-focused talk held at the Charlotte Museum in July 2010.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So the purpose that we kind of had for today was we wanted to learn and gain greater respect for different age groups. Um, often, we've found a bit of ageism between different, uh, ages in the queer community. And so we've asked the speakers to talk about, um, what stereotypes they have of different age groups, what stereotypes they think other age groups have of their age group and what their gender and sexual orientation means to them. So that's kind of the idea of what we're going into this for. And our goal is to [00:00:30] kind of just honour the differences in those different age groups. So kind of as a group, I guess we're all kind of working towards that today. And that's it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We gotta say why? Why? Let me tell you how I feel. You have given me all your riches and I love you, [00:01:00] So, yeah, I mean it. I hate it. Let me tell you how I feel. Have given me all your riches. I I agree. Um, yeah. [00:01:30] So just so you know, um, we, um each chose a speaker or each asked somebody to speak. So we're going to start with, um, the, um, speaker for, um 50 plus, which is OK. 50 plus. Well, I'm 69 on the radio this morning. I don't know if you heard it. Um, Lauren Lisa, who used to call herself Liron lethal, uh, was talking about coming out in the eighties, and she said she came out as [00:02:00] a angry lesbian feminist. Uh, I thought was I an angry lesbian feminist in the eighties. Um, and something I read just before that was a British comedian in the late nineties who was talking about her mother and has her mother saying, This is the mother's voice. Why do you have to go on that show and say you're queer or a dike? Why couldn't you say you're a nice lesbian? And I thought, I'm probably something [00:02:30] between the two between a nice, a nice lesbian and an angry and angry lesbian feminist. Um, I had my first lesbian relationship when I was 20. Let's make 1960. And for about the 1st 15 years, I was closet. We were all closet. Um, I went out with men. I slept with men, uh, usually a little wimpy men, but men Um, [00:03:00] And it was really only when the women's movement came along, when feminism came along and kind of in New Zealand. That was the sort of mid seventies when it started really infiltrating here that became possible to come out and coming out. I sort of thought, What what does it mean? Being a lesbian? And I think a lot of us thought that we'd been hidden the whole time. We've been secretive. The whole time we knew that being a lesbian meant being sexually attracted to women having women as the primary focus of your sexuality. Um and then we thought, well, being women identified, [00:03:30] which is what the feminist movement suggests we were. What does it actually mean? And we thought about and talked a lot about, um, lesbian identity. Did it mean more than sex, sex, what we did in bed or on the way to bed? Or it seems a bit silly to say what you do when you when you're sleeping with someone. It's not really with someone, Um, and certainly the group of lesbians I kind [00:04:00] of identified with spent. We spent a lot of time, uh, in workshops in, um counselling groups co counselling, uh, lesbian therapy, self help therapy groups. It was brilliant. Actually, it was all free. Um, it was part of the whole feminist, um, self self analysis. Um, and we thought, What are we as lesbians? Who are we as lesbians? [00:04:30] Why are we lesbians? Um, and this is only some of us. Um, because a lot of my friends who've been the secret of lesbians before with me, identified as, um, gay ladies and gay ladies did not go to therapy groups. And gay ladies were not feminists and gay ladies ladies still went to the, um, bars and played pool. And, um, and live live their own lives in the suburbs in, um, in happy couples. Uh, so a lot of the women I knew didn't [00:05:00] identify as feminist, um, as well as the all the therapy groups. Oh, and of course, the most important one. I think for me was, um I hope she'd be here today, but she's She's not with Ruth Jackson, who some of you might know as a counsellor now who ran lesbian counselling groups and that the kind of point of that was that we were hoping we had a community. And if we were a community, how are we going to operate in that community? So it's very much a sense of, um, how how would you help the people who are having difficulty coming out? How would you help the people having [00:05:30] difficulties in that community? And Rick Jackson ran two lesbian counselling sessions which I thought were brilliant and as well as that. Of course, we read books. And of course I've got this big pile of books here because I spent 37 years of my working life teaching literature at the university and books give me a great sense of security. So I usually always bring a pile of them along with me. But books like this one, Joanne loans lolan lesbian sex, which came out in 1984 I think, and was followed by her [00:06:00] lesbian passion, which came out in 1987. Sort of say some of the younger ones might say they really need to learn how to do it passion but lesbian ethics towards new values. And I think that was kind of the centre of it. Um, what did it mean, being a lesbian? Did we operate in different ways. Feminism had said that, um, traditional conservative, um, heterosexual relationships [00:06:30] based on, you know, power dynamics based on sexual stereotypes were to be questioned. Um, and so you're saying what you do lesbians operate in a different way. Um, lesbian ethics. Um, I actually I took all these off my bookshelf, and when I took them off, it's 20 years of dust. We sitting on them. Um, So this is what we read then, um, lesbian couples creating healthy relationships for the [00:07:00] nineties. And I guess this is the thing that, um if we weren't being heterosexual couples, what were we being? And I think we thought it was going to be a dill. The two women, women's passion, women understanding one another. And of course, as probably most of us know, it didn't work out like that at all. So lesbian couples creating healthy relationships? Um, a lot of the lesbian counsellors at the time were actually couple counsellors as well. Not, um, lesbian psychologies [00:07:30] explorations and challenges the lesbian reader, which started off as I saw them coming out and how to make love to a woman. If you're a woman. Um, what does she like lesbian identities from the fifties to the nineties. Oh, yeah. Um, the significance of being lesbian and lesbian culture and anthology because lesbian culture, what was lesbian culture? That was very dusty, actually. [00:08:00] Actually, I was just thinking when I said Joanne Leanne's Lesbian six. And she was one of the, um you say the the role models for us in the eighties. Uh, and then in the mid nineties, she came out as sleeping with a man or having a man as a partner. Well, we were really upset about that. Um, we said, This is this. She's a traitor. I, I said, You [00:08:30] know how? How could she be sleeping with a man if she's the the lesbian role model? And the thing that she said as well was, um, it's not that I'm biassed, she said. I'm not bisexual. I'm not. I haven't gone straight. I'm a lesbian who sleeps with a man. Um, I guess this is the mid nineties, and it's a time when we were actually then being asked to query those, um, kind of not not quite absolutes we'd set up, but the the [00:09:00] attitudes that we'd seen as being essentially lesbian that is, um, you don't wear makeup. You don't wear high heels. Um, these are things that stereotype females do. You can probably think of other things too. Um, SM was sub highly suspect. Um, sleeping around was highly suspect, and certainly being being by was was I think pretty, um, [00:09:30] in the in the rather lesbian security, I guess that we'd set up in the eighties. It was I think if you came from a, uh, attitude or came from a place which had been, uh, what denied were you being denied? Were you being hidden? Were you being, um, what would be I think? I. I noted Some of the terms, um, are marginalised, [00:10:00] denied, Prohibited. If you came from that place, it seemed very important to set up some sense of security. You know, this is what a lesbian is. This is how we can all belong to the same. The same community. Um, but of course, by the nineties, we began realising that, um although say, in the therapy groups, you saw similarities. You also, um I saw the differences. I've done a lot of differences, and I think now we'd happily accept probably what Joanne Leanne said that she is a lesbian who [00:10:30] sleeps. He slept with a man. Um, but then that was, uh, that I could say that was abhorrent. Was anything else I was going to say about that? Um oh, yes. The other thing I wanted to talk briefly about was the fact that, um, being a teacher at the university and I taught, um, classes in women's writing. Um, and in the eighties, when I introduced the class, I would say to the students, and usually there are students about [00:11:00] at that stage about 80 to 100 odd students, I'd say, uh, we all read from different subject positions. I don't expect you to read like me. I say I read like a then probably be a 55 year old a, um, a woman and fairly well educated. And somewhere in there, I'd throw in, um, and a lesbian. Uh, in the eighties, [00:11:30] the students who were lesbian really like this. You know, they often they kept journals as their, um coursework, and they'd write in the journals. You know, it was really great that she comes out. It's really great to hear the word lesbian being spoken out on a platform. And I think a lot of called baby dikes came out, um, in in that class or because of partly because of that class. But I noticed the change that by the time we got to the nineties, um, [00:12:00] they'd be writing things in their journal like, um, why did she feel it necessary to label herself so it was kind of stopped. Wondered whether I actually I didn't stop. I kept saying lesbian, um, and the students themselves often weren't calling themselves lesbian any longer, since by the late nineties, they were calling themselves queer. Um, you know, queer as a as a more inclusive term, which could include gay men, bis any any sort of sexuality, which was, [00:12:30] I guess you'd say transgressive in the conventional sense. Um, and then it went one step further. This is the early early this century, earlier this century when, uh, by became very fashionable, and a lot of a lot of students said they buy, and this wasn't necessarily actually lesbian students or straight students. It was both I remember, in fact, um, Fran, my partner's daughter, [00:13:00] who is as straight as they come, I think who who called herself by and and another, um, lesbian friend who called herself by. And neither of those were actually having any sort of anything like sex with either, in the case of Brown's daughter, either a woman or, in the case of a lesbian friend with a with a man, but by just meant you weren't going to be labelled by meant. You had the possibility of sleeping with [00:13:30] someone of the opposite sex. So by became very, I think, very fashionable. Um, and then 19 Sorry. 2005. I retired, so I I'm not I'm not quite sure what happened after, but one thing I was certainly very aware of, um was the younger students thinking of, um or I remember one of them saying to me in a tutorial, um, I was very uncertain. She said about coming to this class because I'd heard that you were a seventies [00:14:00] feminist. This was in the nineties, and so it's actually quite useful because we talked about a beautiful glass of water. It was Dr we we talked about what was a seventies feminist and what was a nineties feminist? Um, she didn't actually say I heard you were a seventies lesbian feminist, but I heard you were seventies. So there was very much that idea that seventies feminist and so lesbian feminists were kind of, um, rigid in their beliefs. I guess this is, I suppose I felt that, uh, [00:14:30] they they would expect of me, that I'd be rigid in my ideas, that I'd only have one way of seeing things um, thinking about now I came across this in the business news, not stop. Um, yesterday. Was it yesterday or Friday? The business herald of all places? Um, you might. Some of you might have seen this or heard about the event that caused it, [00:15:00] and it was titled He doesn't speak lizzo One news anchor, Simon Dello, apparently stepped over a line with his TB bosses after his media comment about his wife. Alison Does it Mel, Mel, Mel and her same sex partner, Carlene Edmonds. DAO was photographed and joined convivial company at a commercial promotional launch and was asked by The Herald on Sunday gossip columnist about he replied, I don't speak, which is rather an odd [00:15:30] thing for the main news anchor for public television to say TV NZ spokeswoman Andy Brotherton said TV New Zealand has dealt with Simon about this. It was handled earlier in the week, but she would not discuss TV N z's view about duo's transgression. Once closely protected by network bosses who saw news anchors as representing the brand, TV NZ has taken an increasingly laissez faire approach to and his social life on the celebrity circuit and in Social pages since his [00:16:00] break up with I Don't Speak, Lizzo will be offensive to some, but it's hardly shocking. Maybe it fits with TV N Z's apparently wishing to promote its news to swinging singles. I find the end of that quite quite confusing. Um, I think the suggestion is that the media, um, sees being a lesbian or speaking Leo, I suppose, as somehow involved with being a swinging single. [00:16:30] And I think this is probably part of the recent sort of media, um, of promotion, I guess, of lesbianism. Bisexuality, Um, as long as you're attractive, beautiful, um, a celebrity talented, um, Anika Moa rich or famous or ele deer. I guess, um, that it's that it's OK. It's cool, but it's cool to be, um, a [00:17:00] lesbian. It's cool to be um, yeah. I mean, I, I think the I don't know how many of you caught her programme, but, um, it comes on just before the news, so I always catch Seem to catch the end of it when I go to soon to the news. And, um and she is set up as a classic Butch di, if there ever was one. I mean, you know, she wears jeans and trainers and a beautifully cut jacket, And but and and all the attractive women in the audience [00:17:30] are all clear. So? So on one level, I guess, um, there's a There's a speaking there, though. Is it as a as I said, a cool thing to be now, excuse me. A Can I just get there? Did you see your mom When your mum came on? Her mum was 87. This thing? Yeah. Oh, OK. [00:18:00] Supporting her daughter. Ok, you go. Course. So I've chosen to be, um, the best speaker for the 30 to 50 age group. Um, sometimes I'm concerned about the lack of knowledge of our struggle and little things, like the recent metro article where it interviewed, [00:18:30] um, a few younger women and they um, really illuminated that for me And the sentiments, um, anti sentiments around Butch and film, you know? And I wanted every young person in New Zealand to have, you know, read Stone Butch Blues in these schools, it's kind of heartbreaking. So moving on to assumptions about over 50. Well, as someone said over there, it pioneers phenomenal, um, people who were subjected to horrific discriminations and abuse, you know, electric [00:19:00] shock treatment. Um, terrible family abandonment, um, couldn't access housing, health and and employment, you know, was a They're amazing woman. I do sometimes find them more rigid in their thinking. Of course, we're perfect at 30 to 50 and I think labours are often so important. And I understand that because it makes sense of our world, and maybe it helps us make sense of others. I've come across quite a bit of phobia, particularly biphobia and transphobia. [00:19:30] And what I also find is that these women are still politically active. They're stunningly organising for her stories like today, um, our health and our rights. And so, in terms of the labels I use, it's not a, um a straightforward question for me. Um, I adore some neighbour names and labels. I adore dyke. I love it, but in the strictest sense, but in the strictest sense, it may not describe my sexuality. Um, and I have been together for six years with Civil Civil Union, I down the back on the, um, [00:20:00] we civil unionised over two years ago, and we're life committed partners and doesn't really like me saying this. But if she was to die, which is understandable, I may again have relationships with men. Um, so is my sexuality by lesbian. You know, I don't really care to be honest, and that's interesting. It's not very important to me, but once a kind of time, it really was. I wanted a place to belong. And maybe my commitment to Annaly supersedes those questions for me. [00:20:30] But it does come to why I love the label queer, because it does embrace my sexuality and my gender. Um, identify as female and identify as a woman I have not and still often don't fit into societal expectations of those. My gender war started pretty early. My father was conservative and a farmer of several generations, Um, and I'd go and stay there in the summer and my parents were divorced, and they would expect me to work in the kitchen for the men. And, of course, it's beautiful. Summer days. I wanted to work outside. [00:21:00] Um, we never did reconcile at all on the roots. Um, I love being a woman, and I consider myself strong and determined and passionate. But these are not the domain alone of femininity or masculinity. And I'm also child free by choice, which I think is still a significant choice. Motherhood is pretty pervasive. It's still a must do in our society. And increasingly, I find it's been almost, um, elevated to having Children is next to godliness. So just to finish off what assumptions [00:21:30] and beliefs do, I believe other groups have a 30 to 50 year olds. Well, for to a certain extent, being under 30 thirties may not differentiate significantly between forties and fifties because, let's face it, we are all old. Yeah, I hope they are seeing more diversity. Um, I think they're a little bit mystified by I need to label ourselves. I'd like to think they see community, and even if they, some of them have no desire to belong to us, and the over fifties, I think. I imagine they look [00:22:00] at us and go How lucky you are, comparatively. How so many more rights and protections and legislation in a society where really is here. Um, but as you know, I believe we still have so far to go. So thanks to the Charlotte and, um and thanks, Ali for inviting me along to allow me to contribute. Thank you. That's great. Um, I've asked [00:22:30] Phoebe to come and talk today, and she's a member of, um I've both I've grew up, um, in lesbian community. My mums are both gay. They were together, um, and had me out by a sperm donor. So I've always, um, been surrounded by I wouldn't say, um, radical famous lesbians. Exactly. But, um, people from that era, um and so I think my prejudices are, um, stereotypes against those people are very different from maybe other people my [00:23:00] age, so I can only speak for myself. Um, but so something I picked up just coming here today. Um, just two things that I noticed was, um, one that me and Georgia seem to be the only, um, young, young, uh, lesbians in that in that under 30 bracket. Um, and I think that sort of illuminates. One of the stereotypes I feel that older people might have towards us is that we're not interested. Um, I know I am. You know, I'm I'm quite politically active. I was at the youth parliament [00:23:30] stuff. Um, but I think you're right in saying that, um, there's no longer we don't feel the need for a united lesbian movement. We don't need to be politically active like as a community. And I think it's actually really sad that we don't have that so much. That tight knit community that from all the stories I've heard throughout my life, um, were around in sixties, seventies eighties. Um, and the other thing was, um a comment I I do knitting. Um, I Yeah, [00:24:00] and, um and interesting, um, comment that you made. I'm not sure. Sorry. Um, yeah. And you And you said Oh, you know that that's the trend. Now I hear. And I sort of I almost I was I was I thought, uh, you know Oh, because I don't wanna I don't know because it's It's a trend. Um, I think that might be another um, thing you older people might have is that they, um is that you You see us as quite superficial, Um, and maybe [00:24:30] fit, you know, uh, is is this fair? I mean, because I I'm probably more an old lesbian than a young lesbian myself in terms of how how I you know, my belief system and how I act and things and III I agree, I, I think, um, a lot of people I see a lot of youth today as really superficial. Um, and I Sorry, I'm I'm glad there. No one. You know, not too many people here, but, um, we'll get around, [00:25:00] but, um, yeah, and I I don't know why that is. I mean, I guess it's the the impression I get Is that people? The youth in general? Not just, you know, queer youth. Um, don't They don't feel I don't Yeah, I don't know about that. Um, moving on. Um, it's a Yeah, it's so hard. I was trying to think through this last night, doing my [00:25:30] knitting and, you know, didn't Yeah, yeah, it's hard on. Um, but in terms of stereotypes, uh, I think we trying to be representative of my age group have older people. Um, I see them as like, I would be more inclined to talk to an older person than a younger person about personal things about my personal life because I think that they have so much more understanding. And I think a lot of that comes from, um, the experiences they've had in the political [00:26:00] arena. And, you know, all the fighting that in the story the stories of these, you know, actions that I heard one about, Um, one of my moms was telling me that she dressed up with a group of women from her sort of radical lesbian group. And, um, went and sang, uh, pretending to be prostitutes at, um, the bar where American sailors were staying, who were doing the nuclear [00:26:30] free. And, um, they were singing that song. Um, I'm not sure what the actual song was, but the her lyrics or something like, it's raining shit in the ocean. It's raining shit in the sea, going along this this line, you know, to a song that, um, something to do with the walls of Texas. Yeah. Yeah. So? So they rewrote this song, and, um sung the new version, um, to these these brawny American sailors and then ran out. So it's and with the [00:27:00] police sirens, you know, wailing in in their wake. And it's those stories I've been raised on and the comparison to today when you see when I see, you know, a a weekend activity for young people going out and getting drunk, which is another big beef with me, um, is just really, really depress. Depressing for me? Um, yeah. What else? What? Oh, yeah, I [00:27:30] thought when? When? Someone if if I'm in a situation where I I'm coming out to someone, I usually use the term gay, not lesbian. And I think that comes from there being a lot of stereotypes. Um, around the word lesbian and I Although I think those stereotypes have changed a lot from you know often, tho, those visual stereotypes, um and I think that arose from the feeling the need to, um, make yourself visible. So, you know, short here. I'm like I head shot you here. [00:28:00] Um but yeah, things like that. Short hair and, um, jeans. OK, they're not working out for me right now, but, um, so you I mean, everyone knows what those stereotypes are. Um, and yeah, I know. I've lost my train of thought. Yes. Um, and even though maybe today I think with a lot of the media around the [00:28:30] sort of movies and things, lesbians have a different There are different stereotypes that really glossed up women who have sex everywhere with each other. I don't know, you know, but whatever. Whatever these are. OK, you know, you've seen some of the films, but whatever, I don't feel that that's me at all. I don't think I do fit into many of those stereotypes. Um, and so, yeah, I use gays are more sort of, um, inclusive term, but not not so much because I'm politically aware of, [00:29:00] you know, that other people need to be included. But just because I don't feel that it's fair for people to associate me with those stereotypes and treat, you know, stereotype me because of my sexuality, um, and gender? Um, I think there's a There's a lot more stigma around gender than just sexuality. Um, and that's sort of the next battle with as a you know, the LGBT community has to face, um, as well as bisexuality. That's another, um, big issue. [00:29:30] Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm comfortable in my gender, but I think like I've been filling out a lot of university scholarship applications recently. And I i something twigs in my, you know, in me when I see boxes Female, male and that really annoys me because I've got, you know, lots of trans trans friends and, um, yeah, just sort of. There's still so many problems in society that we need to look at. Yeah, that's not.

IRN: 174
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/wellington_gay_and_lesbian_helpline.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003865
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089159
TITLE: Wellington Gay and Lesbian Helpline
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Chris Pugsley; Jo Morrison
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 1990s; 2010s; Chris Pugsley; Jo Morrison; Wai Ho; Wellington; Wellington Gay Switchboard; Wellington Gay Welfare Group; organisation; support
DATE: 10 September 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Chris Pugsley and Jo Morrison talk about the history and activities of the Wellington Gay and Lesbian Helpline.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So I'm here with Chris Pugsley and Joe Morrison, who are the co chairs of Wellington Gay Welfare Group. Um, also called Gay Helpline, and probably quite a number of other other words labelled, um, Chris, can you tell me a little bit about what gay helpline or gay Wellington gay welfare group is and how it started and etcetera, Yeah, the group started about 30 years ago, and in those days it was very sort of undercover. I suppose it was not very public. It wasn't, um, [00:00:30] wasn't advertising where it worked from and we didn't have websites. Of course, over the years, it's, um it's still very much involved with telephone helpline work. But as people have moved into wanting other ways of communication, like websites and also groups that we've always run, um, it's actually changed quite a lot from the original helpline from 30 years ago. So did it get set up before homosexual [00:01:00] law reform? Yes. Yeah, got got set up before that. And it was really I suppose the only I wasn't involved then. So, uh, from from what I've been hearing from people who were, it was really the only place that people could get in touch with other gay people other than I think classified adverts is a whole lot of, you know, very what seemed very old fashioned ways of getting in touch, um, for advice and help. And then, of course, there's a whole bunch of sort of different social social venues [00:01:30] that people got together in. But, um, yeah, and do you know who set it up and what was the need to set it up? Because I guess it would have been not maybe illegal, but I guess a slightly illegal organisation to set up, you know, pre law reform, I think I. I know. I'm not sure who did Set set up. I think it's a basically a group of gay men who just saw a need in the community for somewhere for people to get in touch. And I think it just built from there and and it built, I think, from demand. People [00:02:00] rang up. They rang up much more probably than they do now because there's so many other ways of getting in touch with other groups. And in those days it was the only group. Yeah, not having the Internet to do you know, go search for a playmate. Yeah, and I think that I think that it, um it also got involved with some social groups. There was lots of linkages in the people running the various sort of clubs and bars and and the places [00:02:30] where gay men. Because it was in those days, it was a A men only group. Um, where men hung out together as as as as a queer group was very much linked to the helpline. And when I joined about 12, 14 years ago, something like that. There was a lot of, um, work with other groups like University Queer Group was, um, running parties at that stage. And we we used to run the bar because of the fact that students weren't old enough to run bars. [00:03:00] It was just a just a licencing requirement. And so I think that's where that started from. And so there was a lot more sort of diversity in some ways of the integration with the rest of the community than there is now. We we tend now to to run groups, and we run a telephone answering service and we have a website and email, and those sorts of forms of communication. Facebook. And so we still have a fairly diverse way of getting in touch with people. But I think the other ways that we used to, through social events [00:03:30] and parties have more or less dropped off to nothing. So is that just an information line? Or is there Is it a counselling service? Or what do people usually want want when they ring up? Yeah, well, I think I think we're always a bit cautious about counselling because I think people have different ideas. What counselling is about? We? We We are not qualified counsellors. Largely. There's a few people on our group that are, but yeah, we're there to listen. We're there to give information. But most of the calls are actually about talking through [00:04:00] issues that people have about their sexuality, their relationships. Sometimes it's it's just engaging with bureaucracy and government departments and and maybe finding out, um, you know, gay friendly professionals, those sorts of things, not so much the party and the things that used to be, I think much more common sort of short calls, short information calls. And I think the, um the fact that with safe sex and and a lot of sexual [00:04:30] health. There's lots of other organisations out there that, um people know about and their contact. So a lot of those calls, we don't get some money off. So it used to traditionally well, when it got set up a gay men's group or a gay men's organisation. It's obviously not just a gay men's organisation anymore. Um, what's your involvement been like Joe? Um Well, I decided to get involved because I moved back here. I came out as a lesbian in, uh, the early eighties. So in New [00:05:00] Zealand, in Wellington. So things were quite different back then. And we did have a lesbian centre on Cuba Street, and, um so there were ways of meeting lesbians if you were brave enough, Um, because it was Were you brave enough? Just, um Yeah, I moved up to Auckland pretty quickly, I think. Because I think, um, I had a feeling that maybe it was, you know, people were a bit more flexible and open minded up there. Probably wrong, but yeah, no, [00:05:30] I knew a lot of separatist women down here at the time. Luckily, I had a link in because a good friend of mine is, um, as a as a cousin by marriage. So, Brenda, we and she's a very, um yeah, so socially motivated to to organise things. And she still does that, you know, to this day. So I was very fortunate to have somebody like that, um, to to nick me in. Um, and there have always been women have been quite organised. Um, because [00:06:00] we are, you know, I guess because of the isolation and things, um, in general. So they've always had a lesbian help line, you know? I mean, it's maybe go for a couple of years and then die off, and then another bunch of women will start it up. So this isn't the first. But when I moved back here, um, having been away for 23 years at least, um, in Vancouver. I just thought OK, what? You know what's happening now in Wellington for people that are immigrants or or new to New Zealand and And also [00:06:30] then what's happening with people that are just coming out? So that's how I tapped in? Yeah. And then I, um I offered to facilitate actually co facilitate because I brought a friend in who admit she had just moved back with her partner from the UK. So we all just moved here. So we decided to do that together to co facilitate co facilitate a drop in group for queer women or, um, lesbians that are just coming out. Or we try to be as we try to be, as inclusive [00:07:00] as we can be, Um, and for women that are just new to the area. So most of my calls, well, half and half. So my email is out there, and half and half are women that are just coming down to Wellington, you know, like for example, I have a email from a German woman that just arrived here and sort of said, Are there any lesbians and where do I find them? In Wellington. And I go, Yeah, yeah, yeah. This this appears, I'll introduce you, You know, come to the next pine zone if you want to. It's kind of for older, [00:07:30] but, you know, there'll be a few of us there that we can introduce you to some younger if you're younger and then the others are. You know, I'm just thinking about whether I'm bisexual. or, you know, I've had some fantasies about women. I think maybe, you know, I might want to come out. So we try and make it a group for both of those issues. Yeah. So helpline, um, is a phone line and has kind of networking capabilities like facebook, et cetera, and it's got a lesbian drop in group. [00:08:00] Yeah, And what else? What other stuff do you do with the, um this a lot of, um, focus now on youth groups. So we've got schools out, which is part we we don't have hands on, um, sort of day to day work with all the groups. So with with schools out, we have a half time employee now, and we with other groups are just an umbrella organisation. And so we do a lot of the administration and fundraising. [00:08:30] Um, we are an anchor, if you like, for those organisations. And so there's another group called Transform, which is a transgender group, um, again, mainly for young people, Um, and then for people over the age. Well, something like mid twenties, we we have a another sort of social group which, um, people can come to every couple of weeks and it's usually held in somebody's home and, um, certainly open [00:09:00] to other groups being set up. So I think people need to think if they're they're interested in groups, you know, looking at organisations like ours as an umbrella group. So it saves a lot of the the setting up. The charter will trust the the Incorporated societies, the annual accounts, the A GM, the meetings. All that structure doesn't have to be part of every group, so groups can actually queer groups can, actually, if you like, be under, um, the overall banner [00:09:30] of violence and Gay Welfare group, which is just a legal title that we, um we set up years back. And so, yes, that's that's how we we tend to function with other groups. How did this shift happen to being, I guess mostly or exclusively, even a gay man's group Gay male group to not being exclusively a gay man. Was it conscious, or did it just just happen or Well, I think I think the main thing was that as um as Joe was saying, there was a lesbian line group [00:10:00] and over the years that was maintained amazingly, you know, consistently really by a very small group of people. But I think in the end, um, they decided well about 56 years ago that they couldn't really maintain the energy to keep advertising and all the other things you really need to do with a group like that. And, um, it was run quite informally. Whereas the Wellington Gay welfare groups always had a Constitution and a structure and a and A and A, I suppose, like those things I was saying before, there's a there's a sort [00:10:30] of administrative back ground to it, and and usually there's been 2030 40 50 people. It depends associated with it. Whereas I think Lesbian Line was quite a small group of four or five people. And so we basically said, Well, if there's any of your current members want to join our group and we can then look at incorporating um, women into training and it it was a very gradual process, I think we we started off getting more calls from women, [00:11:00] and I think as men we were always quite happy to talk to women, and if they were happy to talk to us, that that worked and, um Now we have women in the group and we have for the last, what, 34 years? Um, we've changed our rules, constitutional those sort of things to make them, um, inclusive of both genders. In fact, any any queer, any queer labelled group of people. We we've tried to sort of try and, you know, get rid of those sort of labels like that was a [00:11:30] very written for men being in a in a men's gay organisation. And so that's that's changed. And, um, yeah, we we've we've now got women in the group, but we don't have any problems with the men taking calls from women and women Take calls from men and And if people definitely want to talk to a man or a woman, um, we just say, Well, look, call back in a couple of days and there's a man on duty that night or as woman on or whatever. So that's how the organisation really it did it. [00:12:00] It was a slow evolution to include women, Um, because of the fact that there wasn't a women's lesbian line group. So some, like you hear kind of people saying, Oh, well, homosexual reform was quite a while ago now, and society's changed and there's, you know, there's no homophobia, blah, blah, blah, blah. What's your kind of take on that? Has, you know what has changed? And, uh, you know, our group still necessary and And, you know, what role do they serve or, [00:12:30] well, definitely in the school system having, um when I first moved back here, I was teaching for a bit, and you still get heaps of homophobia and oppression. You know, every second I would happen to be in an intermediate school, won't say which one, but, um, every put down was Oh, that's so gay, blah, blah. And I would say, Excuse me, Choose another word. You know, some of my best friends are lesbians or, you know, I always had in the background. My mother is a lesbian. You know, that would really shock them. But that's true. [00:13:00] Wouldn't be lying. Um, so definitely for those other kids. I was just so aware and sensitive about it because I knew that there at least be two kids in there that were actually struggling with their own identity. And, um, well, not just identity, but sexuality and orientation. So Um, yeah. No, it's still, um, it's still very relevant. And homophobia is still around. There's lots more acceptance, and Wellington [00:13:30] is probably the most accepting political city in New Zealand and in most of the world. But that doesn't mean to say that you're not gonna shock somebody, or you're not going to get shut out of a group or shut out of the church or shut out of any kind of spiritual. Yeah, so there's lots of, um, places that were still the doors are still being shut. So we need that support and try and bring people in that are feeling isolated from their families or whatever. Yeah, so? Well, go welfare group, um, kind of umbrellas, [00:14:00] Uh, couple of youth groups. So young Young, I guess. Yeah, for young people. And then one in the mid mid twenties. Yeah, there was a group called Newcomers. It's a beaten call that for a long time we we we keep thinking we ought to try and come up. Don't we have one now in the early 20 the the BG LGBT sandwich. Now that's That's a group which, which actually spun out from schools [00:14:30] out, as as people got older and schools out because there are 14 year olds in the main group, the tertiary education sort of group sort of 18 to 18, 20 years. 25 is that group. And then the newcomers group I was just mentioning before is the 25 and over group, which we run ourselves, Um, as it were with the the regular members of the helpline Um, helping out with the meetings there and what would be the average age [00:15:00] of the lesbian drop in group for people? Are people newly coming out there as well as just being new to Wellington Or, uh, we definitely have, you know, 1920 year olds. And then we have 50 something year olds. I'm just trying to think who the oldest. So it's quite it fluctuates from week to week, and, um, it's quite mixed. Yeah, So if the calls that, um, helpline takes are older people coming out as well, or is it just younger people coming out [00:15:30] or what's what's what's going on? Lesbians? Definitely. You know, um, one of our people in our group right now should be in her early forties who might be 40 been living with her long time male partner for a while and in the last year and a half has decided, you know, that she wants. She'd rather you know. She's finding that she she's finding herself more attracted to women. So she's had to. It's a huge loss and big, um, stuff going down because they're gonna have to split the house and their [00:16:00] families and all of that, because they've been together for 16 years. But she's been really honest, but she's also taking her time. And and unlike me, where I need a catalyst, I'd probably need you know, I can't. It's hard for me to relate because I'd have to actually fall in love with someone to make all those shifts because they're hard work for her. You know, she's been very mindful and, um, and respectful about it and taking her time. But so she really counts on coming to our group just about every week, and it is really emotional. She'll have a good cry because it's tough and coming out to [00:16:30] a few workmates at a time, and a few people in her family and you know, but having to break away from something that's so familiar. And do you know if there are still older men coming out or helpline or Yeah, I think that there's a very wide age range of people who call us. We get calls from 14 15 year olds who often have issues to do. Um, as much with what you were just saying, You know, homophobia in schools. But often it's It's to do with families and and and getting [00:17:00] help from government agencies. It's it's how to deal with social welfare, how to you know where to go and who to see. We don't obviously, you know, try and make out we we can actually help directly. But we we have people we know work for organisations We we can, um we can put them in touch with the schools out group. Um so they can go and meet other people. Um, even if that wasn't the reason for the call and and quite often when people call, they have one question [00:17:30] they really want to get an answer for. But then when you get into the conversation and they start talking more about the rest of their life and how it's all panning out, you realise that there's a lot of stuff which they do want to talk about. And people like that often hadn't really thought about groups because they don't know the groups exist. So you should say, Well, look, why don't why don't you sort of think about it and you know, somebody? We'll either get back to you if you want to have a chat about [00:18:00] with the facilitators of schools out or just turn up to a meeting, You know, and and I think that, um, yeah, I think that we still have that role I think of, of being there, to listen to people's calls and and and and try and try and sort of find out some other background material when you're actually having that conversation with them, to try and get them to tease out maybe some stuff they hadn't actually articulated or thought about. And, um, and I think that will [00:18:30] always be there. I think there's lots of other ways of finding out that information from the Internet and, um, you know, social social network sites going to, you know, only one gay, two gay bars, two gay spaces. I mean, they're still there. Um, so There's still lots of ways of actually finding out. But I think that conversation a 1 to 1 conversation on a telephone is still just as valid as it was in the 19 seventies eighties. Because it's a it's an anonymous. It's not a face to face meeting. It's anonymous, it's it's [00:19:00] It's more interactive in many ways than a computer system. It's a There's a conversation, which is what we as humans are very good at, and the person on the other end may not have all the answers. And we don't you know, as as helpline as we all have. Different information, different skills, different backgrounds. And so we're not there as a, um, you know, solve all your problems type service. We're there to listen and they can call back every night and just talk to somebody else, which is always, always good, get a different different person [00:19:30] on the end of the phone, different way of approaching the problem. So, yeah, I. I still think it's a very important, um, ability to actually, um, have that in the the community wider community to speak to a person rather than a computer, a computer. And I think you know, And that's why I think it appeals to all ages because, you know, young people maybe aren't so used to telephones and, you know, maybe they're much more reliant on on texting and [00:20:00] and messaging on computer systems. But actually, you know, it's not like a huge step. And I think that, um, the schools, like facilitators do an awful lot of text messaging and they've got their own, um, call number. Of course, they they don't have to all come through us so people can talk to schools out facilitator directly through texting. And so it's not like people have to step outside of the comfort zone. They can send us emails, they can look at our website, they can look at Facebook, and so we still do all those things. But I think [00:20:30] that telephone system of just talking to somebody appeals to anybody from any age group, and I think that that's why we we carry on as a as a main part of our our existence. I suppose we we often debate it, but I still think it's it works and people use it. Yeah, and I think actually the telephone thing, there's a bunch of, um, more middle aged and older lesbians that don't own a computer or don't you know they're technophobes. And so they [00:21:00] those are the ones, and they often have. They're either is isolated in their own communities. They might have an intellectual disability or a learning disability, at the very least, and so this is much more comfortable for them. And they're quite happy to talk to a gay man or a lesbian. They don't care as long as somebody is not going to put them down for who they are. And they've got 100 questions to ask, and they just want to talk to someone because they don't have friends. They're very isolated. I think that's that's That's [00:21:30] one of the things we do. We get a category of caller who is a regular caller, and they might call, you know, three times a year, but they do that for five years, or they might call once a night and they might do that for years and then stop. So we actually form, I suppose, a social space for people because people are, you know, we're there. We are. We are happy to talk to people every night. We don't. We don't discriminate. We don't limit the length of calls. We you know, we we are there. So, [00:22:00] um, there's people on the phones every night or there's a few nights a week that there's this call that the phones are person. Yeah, we we we we decided that, um, we're having more and more difficulty getting people to go. We we operate usually from an office, although we've now got facility of of answering calls from home. Um, but just getting the roster filled, we decided we would, um, we would the party nights, Thursday, Friday, Saturday night, we decided that was the most difficult nights to fill. [00:22:30] And and and those are the nights we got at least calls where we did the analysis over the years. And so now, every night except Thursday, Friday, Saturday, we try and have somebody there and even those nights of people who are happy to come in or answer the phone from home. So what we do is encourage people to just leave messages on the answer machine, um, or send us an email so we will pick those calls up and yeah, it was it was just really, um, so that people, when they are calling and are looking [00:23:00] at our website, we can we say to them, Look, you know, if you call Sunday, Monday, Tuesday Wednesday chances are there's gonna be somebody there, those other three nights less chance. But actually it doesn't matter. Just call and leave a message, because somebody will pick it up and get back to you. So if I ring up, who am I likely to get, like, what's the kind of range of your how many people do you have? Well, it's it's it's quite a lot of people come and go from Wellington so we've always In all the years I've been involved, we've always put a lot of emphasis on training new people and we try and [00:23:30] train groups of maybe half a dozen people or more, and we might do that two or three times a year. And so we have a quite a lot of flux through the group of people coming and going, but usually we try and keep a core group of at least 10 or 15 people who actually are trained through, um, you know, monthly training programme, plus being on the phones with an experienced person as a trainee so that they learn actually by doing the the job. Um, [00:24:00] and then we've got people who have left the group but still want to keep in touch with the group. Usually they're in Wellington, but they've got other stresses on their life or other things to do. Um, with their time and and so we we have an associates list, and then we've got, um, people who are currently trainees. So when you put the group together, it's I know it it It is why I said before, It's like 2030 40 50 60. Depends on what categories you put in the group, but it's it's a good It's a good [00:24:30] size of group, I think, to get things done. And within that group, there's probably a core group of probably 66 to 10 people, usually who actually keep the whole thing together. Like most voluntary groups, we we we expect, um, people to do what they can, but we can't We can't expect people to do you know more than they can deal with easily. So, you know, I think that the group runs with with a a smaller group of very, um, committed people who've got the time and [00:25:00] the energy to to put into it. So this is what we both do this all for, for free voluntarily and for love, I suppose. What do you get out of it? Um, I think that I think it's putting putting something back into a community where you have drawn from yourself in the past, and and I think most of us have had some sort of history of coming out and being very unsure and very uncertain about our sexuality. And so [00:25:30] I think it's It's one of the the most common reasons I think people join the group and certainly in my case, it's, um it's been there all the years I've been doing it, but also I think it's it's a social group in its own right. So you get to meet other people in the queer community. We, um we have fun, we do stuff that we all enjoy. We we try and make the monthly meetings, you know, a bit of a social event as well as a training event [00:26:00] as well as a bureaucratic event. Um, so yeah, and and it's also, I think, um, a group which in the wider community you get, you know, meet people. There's lots of people over the years that don't don't belong to the group, but I know from the group. So, yeah, I think it's a it's sort of. It's also got a longevity. A lot of groups come and go. And I think Wellington Gay Welfare Group has been around, you know, 2030 years as a group. And so it's got a sort of stability in, In, In [00:26:30] In that, um, you know, it looks like it's going to be around for a while because we we've moved into new things. We try to keep up with where things are changing. So I'm pretty pretty convinced that we will be around in the next 10 or 20 years, maybe in a different format, different people. But, you know, still there. And what do you get out of it, Joe? Because you do quite a, um, social work and community work for paid work. Anyway, it's like a double WI. I mean, OK, yeah, I. I think [00:27:00] I sort of wanted to do something when I first got here. Um, partly that was just to get into the to the network I. I wondered how Wellington got by on, you know, two bars and and blondies, um, coming from a larger city. So I thought, Oh, my God, you know, that's so sparse because not everybody wants to go to a bar to meet somebody. So then when I looked and, you know, got involved more in the lesbian community and there's pool nights and there's Ping Pong and and there's overland walkers and things like [00:27:30] that and all kinds of things, I realised how actually really organised Wellington is. So I you know, I realised that I you know, I don't need to get there, but because of those emails and the people that have come to this group, which is such an eclectic group from all over the world, and all types of you know, um, stages of coming out, um, I kind of, you know, I. I see that there's definitely a need. Um, and people just like to, uh, yeah, it's just it's [00:28:00] nice to support people in their early stages. You know, I think there's some great people, my hero. One of my heroes, of course, is Ellen DeGeneres. And I just think, you know, for if we can educate just by being which I do every day in my life in my work, I'm very out in my you know, I've There's been Children who are now 23 2016 or 17. I guess Sasha is now, um So every day of my life, I come out in some way or another. Um [00:28:30] and I think that's sort of I don't know. I don't know, sort of what I do on this on this planet this time around, I think so. I'm more I'm I'm happy to give a little bit for now. And then I'd like somebody else, like George or somebody else to take it over because I am on the flame. Yeah, I've done it for a little while, and and I'm happy to support and go to out day and and do whatever it takes to support. But, uh, yeah, and I am I also have to make ends meet. So, I, I realise that I need to be doing a bit [00:29:00] of my own private counselling and a couple of nights a week, probably just to, you know, because I work for a nonprofit organisation. So, um, I do need to make some priorities, too, in my life. So I'm happy to do it for now. And I know that I'm not here forever, but I'm always if somebody says, Oh, give Joe Morrison a call. I'm always happy to pick up the call and say, Yeah, I know it's hard and these are some things or people or this is a networking lesbian list that you can get on and they will be inclusive if you think [00:29:30] that you you're transgender or whatever. Yeah, cool. So Wellington gay Welfare Group has many, many groups seems to be under it. And lots of people, I guess, really dedicated to, um being involved in that kind of thing. Hey, thanks, Heaps, Chris and Joe for having arm with us.

IRN: 168
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/lilac.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003866
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089160
TITLE: LILAC - the Lesbian Information, Library and Archives Centre
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Carole Hicks; Maddy Drew
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 1980s; 2010s; Amy Greenwood; Carole Hicks; Lesbian Information, Library and Archives Centre (LILAC); Maddy Drew; UniQ Victoria (Wellington); Wai Ho; Wellington; archives; books; collective; history; intergenerational; labels; lesbian; library; naming; organisation; reading; representation
DATE: 2 September 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Maddy Drew and Carole Hicks talk about the history and activities of LILAC - the Lesbian Information, Library and Archives Centre.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So I'm here with Maddie and Carol from, um, some representatives, I guess from Lilac Library. How did you both get involved in Lilac? Um, I got roped into it in 2004. Um, how did you get roped in? Uh, I was the the president at Uni Victoria, a support group for questions. Um, and, um, one of the women on the collective was wanting [00:00:30] to modify the membership rules for Lilac and asked me to come along and advocate on behalf of younger women. So that's how I got roped in. And you've been there ever since I've been there ever since. Um, I'm not entirely sure to be honest. Um, I sort of felt that I was doing a variety of of voluntary things, but nothing much for the lesbian community. So I thought I [00:01:00] could go and borrow a book and see what it was all about. And it coincided with the an a GM, and that was sort of volunteered to be on the collective, which was, I think, about 10 years ago. A friend of mine said I was involved when she came to Wellington, which was about 15 years ago, but I don't think that's true. I think it's probably about 10 years. And what's what is Lila? For people who don't know what lilac is? That's [00:01:30] a very good question. It's a colour, um, itself, um is is a resource centre, Um, essentially for lesbians. And, um, we have books, fiction, lots of detective stories. Needless to say, um, we have assortment of other, um, fiction books. There's quite a large nonfiction section, um, including, um, queer, [00:02:00] um, theory and, um, biographies and a whole whole raft of stuff and more recently, possibly to do with Maddie. And some of the other, uh, younger women whom I'm delighted to say have come in to join us. Um, we've got a lot more stuff like DVD S and such, like, modern technology things. Yeah, we We've got a really impressive um, VHS, You know, the old video tape section. But, um, we're building the DVD section as well. [00:02:30] Um, Alan was telling me that they came up with the name Lilac, and then they came up with the acronym. So what does it stand for? Lesbian information library and archive centre. Oh, so lilac should have, like, two a in it Oh, don't be. Don't cool. So how did it Who? Who started it? How did it all get started? About 1994. Um, [00:03:00] a couple of women called a meeting. Um, where it was, you know, they tried to get women who who might be interested in in doing work for the community, and, um, courtesy of lesbian radio and assorted other networks. Um, there was, um, a series of meetings and fundraisers and book collections and so on and so forth. Um, and by about the end of 94 it was [00:03:30] up and running. So they identified a need for lesbian resources or yeah, I mean, in in the nineties, there would be very few lesbian or at least recognised lesbian, um, literature in the public libraries and not a lot of it a available to purchase in books in New Zealand. And, um, Internet buying was nowhere near the state That it is now wouldn't have existed. It probably not. The Internet exist in [00:04:00] the early nineties. Yeah, I think it did. But, you know, but only for geeks. Really, like you had to know code and so on in order to to use it. So is Has that changed now? Is there more kind of lesbian resources or lesbian literature or whatever in the in the mainstream now or definitely there are. There are some in the in the public libraries. What you find is that it's actually hard to track down. So we found that it was the hut library. Took the label lesbian off a lot of the lesbian [00:04:30] content of their collection, so it was quite hard to find. But any good reason they couldn't spell it or, well, maybe they did just misspell it. Maybe, um, had a great deal to do with the reactionary, um, attitudes of the hut Council. Oh, lovely. Um, but the other thing is that public libraries, of course, Um, books that have a low turnover rate. So, um, especially one way, like it's [00:05:00] some books, books and the the library sales. Um, whereas Lila keeps everything and the low turnover stuff gets moved to storage shelves, but it's still there. Um, so we've got over 2000 articles in the in the collection, some of of disputable quality, but so what are some of the, um what would be some of the high turnover stuff at Lilac. [00:05:30] Yeah, uh, the the detective mystery section is massive because there's a high demand for it. And, um, what do they call it? Lesbian erotica. The short story section that gets quite high. Turnover. The magazines, Actually, because we get all the the diva curve and, um, a few other ones and those get quite well used. And the DV days, one of the high turnover it items as well, Like the word and so on. An increasing [00:06:00] number of the humour books are being, um, borrowed these days. Um, um, whole new generations of of women are discovering Alison Bechdel and sort of things, you know, And and so they go out pretty regularly as well. We've got, um, some some leaflets with best of lilac in different sections. So some of those high turnover things are sort of advertised in there as well. [00:06:30] Other people have found this interesting. You might too. So has the kind of traffic through lilac changed over the years that you have both been there? Yes. If you if you're talking about human traffic, um, it changes very regularly. We we seem to maintain a similar number of members, but the faces keep changing. So one of the [00:07:00] things that we've been looking at recently, um, is looking at ways to retain the members that we get as well as recruiting new ones. And you talked a little bit about, um, young people or young women coming on. Was it not young people before or what? What did it look like? Or the the, uh, not the membership. The the collective. Is it a collective? It was a collective. And we were, um not very young, shall [00:07:30] we say, putting it politely? Um, I could probably be the grandmother of most of the women on the collective now, So, you know, that's quite fascinating from my perspective. Not that I am. I hate listen to But, um, from my perspective, um, I am absolutely fascinated by the younger women who are coming through. Um, I think [00:08:00] they have an enormous amount to offer, and without them, we lilac would go under completely and utterly would become a non event. So is it mostly young women on the collective now, or is it a mixture or a mixture? So when when I first started in 2004, um, mhm am Amy Greenwood was was on the collective, and she she's only a few years older than me. Um, but apart from that, there was quite a large age gap. [00:08:30] And so that was why she'd asked me to come along to the A. GM. So when Lila started the the membership criteria were that you self identified as a lesbian. And what Amy asked me to come along and talk to was that younger women in particular were becoming less likely to identify as lesbian, even if you use the medical definition. And they were, um, so there were a whole lot of different ways that young women were identifying, so lilac was [00:09:00] alienating them in that regard and and as part of a lilac marketing strategy, um, it was proposed to change the the definition of for the membership. And how did that go? We had an interest in a GM, but Maddie and I are still friends. Oh, that's good. And there's no there's no bodies buried out back or anything. OK, [00:09:30] well, another question right on. There were, There were Yeah, it it was It was an interesting meeting. It was about two hours long from memory And there were a couple of collective members who resigned from the collective because of the membership change. Um, what were some of the different points of views without kind of going into kind of personal stuff? What were some of the different points of views around? Kind of naming and labels and identification? Well, I'll I'll speak [00:10:00] from my perspective, um, having having been a lesbian all my life. Um, and having been out for I don't know so long long time, Um, I can't see what the problem is. You know, stand up, be proud. And if you're a lesbian, then call yourself a lesbian. I don't understand what the problem is that, um, apparently younger women have with with doing that sort of thing. [00:10:30] Mm. Um, I think it's it's It's also reflective of of wider society, like a lot of the young women that I talked to. Um, some of them didn't like the word lesbian. Um, because if you play a word association game with them and this applies to wider society as well, there's a lot of negative labels that go along with with lesbian. But there were also a lot of women who were, um, [00:11:00] not only attracted to women who wanted to be part of the library, so that's always been a, uh, an issue for the library and and for the the collective and the members. But I think it was also, um, like the These young women didn't understand why the older generation wanted to identify so strongly as as lesbian. Um, [00:11:30] and so having those sort of intergenerational conversations was really useful. But the, um yeah, the older woman not understanding why the young woman didn't want to have this label? Um, yeah, it was the same kind of thinking for the two groups. So is this still a point of contention now, or how does the how does the criteria of Lila sit Now? Um, it it's been changed [00:12:00] to any woman who has a non heterosexual personal identity and whose primary relationships are with women and who supports aspects of the society shall subject to payment of any membership fee. Be a member of the society on her name, being entered into the society's membership register. Wow, that's quite different from lesbian. Yeah. Um, true. I love those really long things that are about six lines. What [00:12:30] It means I don't know that anybody understands to be honest, but it seems to cover all possibilities, including some we didn't intend and have subsequently knocked on the head. Yes. So where is Lila or where has it been? Uh, it's mostly been in and around the terrace. Um, excuse me. We had, um, one particular room that, um whilst we were very grateful to be able to have a home of some description, um, [00:13:00] its location and its whole, um, set up was was really not not conducive to, um to anybody wanting to be there, to be perfectly honest, but we didn't have anywhere else, and and we were grateful to be able to use it. We moved, um, into the, um, back, um, hall area of Saint Andrews on the terrace, which was very helpful. Um, and we had a reasonable amount [00:13:30] of space there, and the rent was, um, was also, um, pretty cheap. Um, and we are exceptionally grateful to the, um, Armstrong and Arthur Trust which gives us or it has given us, um, the the grants to pay the rent. Um, without very much warning at all. Saint Andrews said they were closing down all of that area of the hall for their renovations, and we had literally weeks [00:14:00] to find somewhere else to go. And, um, after some fiish frantic rushing around, um, we've now got some a really nice space upstairs in the, um, Buddhist centre on, um, Cambridge Terrace. Oh, I do know where that is. Yeah, number 64 Cambridge Terrace is on the corner there. It's such a lovely space, like it gets natural light, whereas in in [00:14:30] Saint Andrews, it was always dark and cold. Um, I mean, absolutely grateful to them. It's just, you know, different building different materials. It's a different feel to the to the room. And it it opens up the possibility of us using the space for other things as well, like movie nights and book groups and so on, which is really, really exciting for the library. So if you had a few of those events since moving premises or, uh, no, pending pending pending in the pipeline, we did a, um, a membership [00:15:00] survey, um, asking all the current members and then all the other women that we could rope into it as well that, um, asking them what they'd like to see at the library. And, um, I think that the top thing that they chosen in terms of other events was fascinating lesbian speakers. So now we've got to find some fascinating lesbian speakers. That'll be interesting. Um, as a consequence of the of the survey, um, we're looking to, um, set up, [00:15:30] uh, a book club we're looking to do as a fundraiser. Probably. Uh, just a one off. Um, quiz night. Um, we're certainly looking at the, um, lesbians, fascinating lesbian speakers. Um, and we're lining up a few women. Not all of them know this yet, but you know, we'll get to them shortly. Wow. Cool. Yeah, it is. And it's really nice to be able to respond. You know, survey monkey makes [00:16:00] it easy for for groups like us to cheaply get feedback from members in an anonymous way and and respond to that. What do you both really enjoy about being part of what do you guys get out of it? First dibs on all the books and DVD S. That's not strictly true. That's not Ellen gets first on the book and DVD S because she does the cataloguing the rest of us. Not so much. Um, the the library is a a bit [00:16:30] of a 1st 1st point of contact for a lot of women that moved to Wellington. So we've got a notice, board and stuff as well. But I really enjoy meeting the new people coming in or new people coming out and like introducing them to different parts of the community and so on and helping them to find their feet. Yeah. I. I would agree with me on that. Um, it's it's really interesting [00:17:00] to see how many of us there are out there. You know, I've been as I've said before, I've been around for a while now, and I know lots of lots of dikes, but I keep meeting a whole new lot just about every week. It's amazing. It's great. Yeah. So is it quite a Is it a fair bit of work, like obviously enjoy? It is not really. I mean, basically, we're talking [00:17:30] about one meeting a month. We're talking 11 evening on a Wednesday or, um, a Saturday lunch time. Um, to do duty, there's very little else that you need to do. I mean, if you can get out and do some recruiting and promotion. You know that's a different issue. But basic two things a month is hardly owners. So those are opening hours, Wednesdays and Saturdays. Wednesday [00:18:00] we've just changed as a result of the membership survey. We're now open on Wednesday, 5. 30 till 7 30 which is just slightly later and then open longer on a Saturday. So 11 o'clock till 2 p. m. but as a direct response to the to the survey, which we're trialling through till Christmas and then we'll see how it goes. So lilac serves, I guess, an important kind of space for lesbian resources as well as kind of the protocol and new people [00:18:30] coming out as well as new to New Zealand. Does it? What other purpose does it serve? Can you think of any? Or is it kind of those that's main two pivots? I think those are probably the the 22 major, um, areas. But the fact that we've got a website and we have, um um a Facebook page and we're with Twitter and so on and so forth has actually in given us indications that people from actually [00:19:00] women of or who knows, But probably women around the world are actually, um, clicking onto the website and having a look as well. So you know, if if if there are some some lesbians who are maybe thinking of travelling to New Zealand, this gives them, um a start that well, at least we're alive and well here. Yeah, because there's been all that stuff about, um Oh, there's all the Internet and print will print will become defunct And what not? And that's not what you found. No, not at all. [00:19:30] I mean, the thought of of, of getting some of those books in in digital format is is hideous enough. Why? Because they're hideous. Well, the books are some some of that. What are some of the ones that we get donated? Every year we have a We have a sale every year. Fundraising at the The game has been fair. And there's always there's some books. Rotary spokes. Are they real funny? Books that get donated or yeah, So those those books are out [00:20:00] out of out of print. They're probably not going to be made digital. Um, but also, who wants to read a book on a computer screen. I mean, yes, yes, there are some people moving to it, but I stare at a computer screen all day. I don't want to go to bed and read a computer screen. Exactly. I agree. Yeah, and I guess there's also, um when I was in kind of queer youth work heaps and heaps of GL BT I stuff. Well, it's often bar focused, so it's really nice to, I guess, have a forum or a space that you can go [00:20:30] isn't just around booze, alcohol as much as booze. No, but I mean it. It is a compounding thing. There's such a problem with alcohol in the in the community, and then we have all our social events based around it. So for anyone who is struggling, they've got to make a choice to either not engage with it or to, you know, run the risk of falling off the wagon. So with all your new fan dangled face pages and twitters and Internet, are there still [00:21:00] some challenges that Lila faces over into the future? Or you're happily plodding along nicely or, um, funding is an issue like we're not self sufficient. We're reliant on donations and and, um, the support of the Armstrong Now for charitable trust for lesbians. Um, and if if we didn't have that, we would be on a certain lake without a certain implement. Um, [00:21:30] so that's that's a big challenge for us. And the retaining existing members, as well as recruiting new members, is sort of part part of the the puzzle or key part of the puzzle towards self sufficiency. Membership wise, number wise. What are we looking at? It it's it's floating around 60. But, um, as as we said, we're now making more of an effort to start retaining existing members because [00:22:00] that's been that's those 60 members have been 60 members of, of hundreds and hundreds of women. Um, so if we were able to, if they were all signed up or even all the ones that were still in Wellington Yeah, all those slackers. One of the things that we're just trying at the moment, and we have no idea how it will work. But we are in [00:22:30] the interests of trying to serve the community. We're giving it a go is a postal, um, ability. Um, there's a a woman in the who doesn't get to Wellington, but she has access to the Internet, so she can see from our catalogues the resources that we have there. And so, um, we have recently come to an agreement, and again, it's it's a trial to see how it works that, [00:23:00] um, she'll provide, um, a courier bag for, um for and and the list of the books that she wants. And we'll put them in the books and send them off, and then she sends them back, and so on. We we've only just started this, but, um and I don't think that we would be looking to go to into it on a major scale. We simply don't have the people, um, to cope with it. But, um, you know, for a few people who few women who, [00:23:30] um, can't get into Wellington But, you know are feeling pretty lonesome out there. Um, in terms of reading about themselves, um, this could be a possibility. How would I find? Would I just google it? Would it just turn up? Not just a colour. Um, yeah, I've I've been googling it to change, to change our our address and our hours and so on. Um, I've just [00:24:00] done a massive Google search for the for the library. So if you search Lila library or lesbian library, you'll find it in the in the top of your search. Even if even if you're searching internationally for um, yeah, uh, and the actual, um, the actual website is HTTP colon forward slash forward slash lilac LIL AC dot lesbian [00:24:30] dot net dot NZ. Please note we don't have the WWW bit in there, so you know that's that's the that will that will get you directly to the, um to the Lilac Web website and access to the catalogue and the hours and the address and any any news. Or you can just pop in when it's open. And is there kind of a little reading space or you stand around and browse or we've got We've got comfy chairs and a little coffee [00:25:00] table that's got a jar with biscuits on it. Oh, yeah, yeah, and and we offer tea and coffee because the the Buddha Centre has got a little kitchen that we all share. So and is there a librarian that will say no, we we tend to engage in conversation if they want to And if they don't, we just shut up and let them go on with it. Although there are there are a few librarians on the the collective. Maybe they would [00:25:30] shush you. No, no, no, no. They're not that sort of librarian. These are good, good lesbian librarians. Yeah. Hey, thank you very much. Both of you, for your time and for, um, talking to us about Lina. Thank you, Hannah. Happy to thank you.

IRN: 198
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/laganz.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003867
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089161
TITLE: LAGANZ - The Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Roger Swanson
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Lesbian and Gay Rights Resource Centre; National Gay Rights Coalition; Roger Swanson; Wai Ho; Wellington; archives; gay liberation movement; history; homosexual law reform; organisation; transcript online
DATE: 7 September 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Roger Swanson talks about the history and purpose of LAGANZ - The Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So I'm here with Roger Swanson, um, to talk about what is right. Well, las is the lesbian and gay archives of New Zealand. Um, and it's a collection or number of collections of material about gay lesbian, um, transgendered, um intersex, um, the whole quer community. Really? Um, and our aim is basically to collect and preserve for the future, um, [00:00:30] so that people can research. And, um, who are interested in their own history. Um, we have a place to collect it because we feel that as a sort of minority groups on the edge of societies, society is not really interested in our histories. Um, they don't collect them. Um, and certainly, if you go into your local library, it's a lot better. Now you'll find, um, gay and lesbian books and stuff. But 20 years ago, there was nothing really, um, other than some stuff [00:01:00] about how sick and how dreadful we all were. And there may have been some books on scandals and Oscar Wilde and some historical things, but they're all told from a very, you know, shock horror point of view. Um, they weren't told from our own own view and our own insights. So, um, the archive is is, you know, when it started in 2025 years ago, Um, that was the, um, premise that we collect our own material so we could tell [00:01:30] our own story. And, um, and things, like a lot of newsletters, um, magazines, um, books, um, radio programmes that started being produced. No one else is keeping them. So, um, we're keeping them so And we're keeping them for anybody who wants to look at them or research or do some do some research. How did it come about? You said that? You know, I guess mainstream wasn't collecting any of our stuff. Who decided? Well, it started really. With the campaign [00:02:00] for quality and legal recognition of our relationships. Um, back in the 19 seventies, um, there was a group called the National, um, gay rights Coalition. Um, that formed and they had a resource. And so they started collecting material for the campaigns. Basically, um, information reports, um, New Zealand overseas, anything that would help them with the campaign and that started building up a collection of material. [00:02:30] Um, and so, um, that was being one of the members of the task force that was, um, doing this work was a librarian, so I wanted to gather so naturally thought, Well, we'll keep this material and put it in order so people can find it. That's what librarians do. It's very boring, but very boring. But, you know, um, it's very helpful if you want to find something, and it's been indexed or catalogued or put in some sort of order that you can actually, rather than just a mix of papers in a box. You know, you [00:03:00] all know that, Um, So, um, that's how we store our own stuff. I speak, Um, so when you got to go back to find it, that's, you know, and of course, say we're doing campaigning, um, petitioning politicians or talking to politicians. Um, um, getting petitions, getting all sorts of things, Um, And so, uh, for political reform. And so they needed information. Good. Reliable. Um, you know, um, there was the AIDS epidemic. Came up in the early eighties. Um, [00:03:30] there were other. Um there were all sorts of other things. So you needed to be able to give statistics and be able to say No, no, no. The real story is blah blah, blah. And how many people are supporting gay rights in New Zealand is a 10% or 100% or, you know, somewhere in between. So they really have that sort of, you know, vital information so you could punch it out and say, you know, can counteracting the publicity negative publicity that came out. So, um, that all accumulate accumulated or accumulated into the great um campaign of 1985 [00:04:00] 86 with the law reform campaign, Um, led by Fran Wild at Parliament and by, um, a whole task force of gay and lesbian people throughout the country. Um and so the resource centre was really a powerhouse behind that and provided anyone who was speaking with information, um, helped them find out facts, um, gathered up anything that was being produced at the time. Um, they also produced, I think, some booklets refuting some of the arguments being put out, and so they were quite active, very [00:04:30] involved, very campaign orientated group. And so the archive grew, and that and then, um and once the campaign was sort of over, the archive existed. But the campaign, you know, people we went there in various ways. And so the archive continued as a as in its own right, because people recognise it as a valuable collection of material. Um, and it contained, um, the papers of meetings of, say, the homosexual law Reform Society, the gay task [00:05:00] force. Um, the new the aid support networks that started up, um, a few years before, um, law reform. Um, and so people and people were gathering books and various things like that. So they were all there. And like I said, there was a librarian looking after it who catalogued and put it all in order and had it, um, very nicely put together. And so there was a So there was that the resource was there. Um, just after the campaign ended in 86 there was an arson attack on the resource centre. The resource centre used to be [00:05:30] in Bocock Street, originally down in the basement there, and then it moved up to the second floor. Um, and there was an arson attack one night. Um, and some guys came in and saw what it was. And so I started lighting fires. Um, but they fortunately were a bit stupid, as these people usually are, um, they didn't do a very good job. Thank goodness. Um, so and the fire brigade were really amazing. They came in and and didn't really start tossing water everywhere. They saw what it was and and used, um, dry, um, [00:06:00] dry material to put the fire out. Um, and those little fires scattered around there was quite a bit of smoke damage. Some papers were destroyed that were out being used, but most of the material was either in filing cabinets, which made them sort of safe. And, um, material on bookshelves amazingly gets singed around the edge, but didn't catch fire. So, um, the collection was sort of, you know, smoke and covered in a bit of dust and stuff, Um, but mainly survived. [00:06:30] Um, And so it was rescued by the Alexander Turnbull library who stepped in and said we will offer you space to, um, to dry the collection out to, um, do work on it. So it quite a big deal for them to offer that, um it was actually I think, um, but they were very sort of part of the Turnbull library. Um, ethos and the way they work, um, they would certainly do it any. You know, Any collections around, librarian? [00:07:00] Bit like what happening in Christchurch at the moment. People, you know, help. Friends? Yeah, we together. So that, um, happened and they collections were removed and taken down to Courtney Place where, um, Turnbull library at that stage. Had some storage space and were, um, spread out and cleared and and dried and? And what? Um, conservation work needed done on them Done on them. Um, so they were sort of in that state, so the archive wasn't accessible, but it was, um, in a secure location. And, [00:07:30] um, safety, of course, was important. Since it had been attacked, had it been targeted or was it was I think it was sort of some guys got into the building, um, and they discovered came across it. It may have been targeted, but it didn't quite seem that way. I think it was they just a couple of stupid guys who saw, um, you know, gay stuff. So you know, um, anyway, so they, um I don't think they were ever caught or anything, but, um, the collection was saved. [00:08:00] And then because the Turnbull been involved with the the trustees. There was a small group of people involved with the archive at that stage. Um, that's what I was involved with at that back then, um, and a number of other paid people around Wellington. And so, um, and we negotiated with the Turnbull library, um, who was key to preserve the collection as well? Because they saw it as a valuable collection and particularly because the law the, um the um 85 86 campaign [00:08:30] had generated a lot of material and really interesting material for research. Um, various attitudes and, you know, just the people involved, um, and the significant change it it it made to to gay lesbian lives. At that time. Um, it was a really valuable research collection, so they were keen to have it within the library. So the gay community, um, through through various, um, people around, um, involved in various community groups agreed that it could be lodged at the Turnbull [00:09:00] Library, but is but is still owned by the gay community. So the collection is still and that's for the agreement. That was, um, agreed with with the chief librarian of the Turnbull Library that the collection would be housed at the Turnbull. Um, would be, um, would be made accessible. So on Turnbull premises, the reading rooms, et cetera. People could use those, um, it would be staffed, um, and accessed by curators who were, um, from the gay community. Gay lesbian community. Um, and [00:09:30] as they happened to be staff members of the Turnbull, that was probably a good, you know, reason why it actually happened this way. Because, um, they the library had confidence in its staff, and, um and it was also seen a win win situation where the library got a very nice collection of a community that's really hard to find information all about, um and, um, And And they had dedicated staff with it. Plus so and then the community had a safe place to keep material. And so and so future [00:10:00] donations would be known to be safe. They wouldn't be at risk of being destroyed or anything like that. So, yes. So a very valuable collection was, um, um house in the Turnbull collect library. Um, preserved, um, but available to the gay and lesbian community as they require. Needed it. And so, over the years, um, quite a few people have donated their own personal papers. Um, organisations have donated their papers because most gay and lesbian organisations are voluntary. [00:10:30] And, you know, if you've ever been involved in any of these, there's always, you know, it's it's a bit quite hard to get people to take minutes of meetings, but, um, if they do and the accounts and all that sort of stuff, they'd be kept somewhere and they're usually under a bed. And someone shared, you know, um, all that sort of stuff and they get lost and the secretary moves to up to Wellington up to Auckland to Sydney, whatever. And so the paper, there's a great risk of these even never surviving. Um, so we're very lucky that, um over [00:11:00] the years, various people said, Well, I can't store these anymore or you know what I'm gonna do with all this junk which I've gathered And so we are a good junk. We take in the junk which we think is very valuable and often it turns out because often those secretaries to, um, they've been secret to in the days of gay liberation, way back in the seventies, they had some minutes of the meeting a few newsletters and things. And that's what survives of that group. Um, other than people's memories. And so we've got those. And some often newsletters went lasted [00:11:30] for 5, 10 years. We've got those, and they don't. You know, no one else keeps them because they're not substantial enough. But as a as a gatherer group, they are very useful for anyone researching life and rural Auckland or wherever down south. Um, what gay and lesbian groups were existing, what people thought at the time, Um and what were the issues they were dealing with? So I think, you know, um, so over time we've got quite substantial collections and some of the bigger organisations such as the New Zealand [00:12:00] Age Foundation, deposit their papers with us. Um, and records. There is, um, all the the homosexual law Reform um, group, which existed for about 20 years. So there's their material, um, a lot of like I said, a lot of the gay liberation groups. Um, there's some social groups. The Dorian Society. Um I think there's some There's some lesbian groups, uh, their paper Amazon, um, sports team, you know, So there's quite a range of material And we got some material [00:12:30] from Mika, the performer. And we had her shoes and dresses one stage. But we managed to decided they weren't quite what we needed to preserve. But we've got samples of some of that material. It's mainly paper, paper, But we have got radio programmes. No, we we we I mean, I would love to have, you know, the the more side of things. And we did try to persuade Papa that they would like to have an archive this, but they were just interested in various just one off bits rather [00:13:00] than a complete archive. Um, but we do have, you know, radio programmes. So the lesbian radio is, um we've got, um, discs from that, um gay BC Wellington. Christchurch, I think. And some Auckland programmes. Um, which go on. You know, week after week after week, they mount up quite a considerable amount of programming. Um, and so some of those we started, um, transferring. And often they're just on cassettes. So we've started transferring those on into digital forms. Um, we've done quite a bit of that with [00:13:30] the, um, law reform material that was recorded at the time transferred. It into digital format. We also have some film material from the law reform period. Um, that has never been screened. Um, but with this is the raw material that's never been turned into a film. So we've had that digitised as well for preservation because it was was not really accessible in this, its original state. Um, so we have film, and we have, um, sound. We have paper, we have photographs. That's the other area. [00:14:00] Um, we got a lot of the photographs from various people's collections. Um, um, we've got some private collections of, you know, people's personal photographs of their their day to day lives. We've got some who have been, um, Semiprofessional professional photographers who at law reform time, went around taking photos or at other events, gay and lesbian events. So we've got quite a wide range of that. So the formats vary. We've got posters, um, a lot of posters. So about I think about 6 700 posters of, um you name [00:14:30] it dances, political or social, whatever we can get. Um, and they are really a nice collection. Um, and we've got buttons and badges and all those sort of bit of fera type stuff that people have put out over the years. Um, so they've been really, you know, it's a really nice collection, particularly for display if you're having an exhibition. And we've had a number over the years of material from the collections because that's another way to promote it. Um, we've had a one in the National Library Gallery, [00:15:00] which was 20 years of law reform, um, and covered that whole period up to 1986. Um, so there was various attempts in the seventies and sixties at changing the law in New Zealand. So that was a, um, a sort of landmark exhibition we had there. But we've had various photo displays around the different and things like that. So, um, so you know, the more variety of materials you got t-shirts, that type of thing. Um, we can get get some of those, um, and [00:15:30] and a few videos and DVD S, depending on what the material is. So you've been involved for many, many years with Do you have favourite pieces or what? What do you get out of? You? Just really like organising things. Um, I like what I like. I mean, I I like the idea that the material is being preserved. Um, I was for a while, one of the curators and had quite a lot of hands on stuff. Now I'm a trustee on the board. The the leg ends is run by a is managed by a trust [00:16:00] trust as a as a charitable trust and registered. Um, And we have, um, a number of board member, um, who who manage the service. And we have curators who provide the access, and that's sort of the structure. Um, and I was a curator for a number of years, um, helping out. And it was I mean, I just really enjoyed looking at the material. It was interesting. Um, it was great seeing that it was being preserved. And I and my librarian role is basically in the libraries as I've been on the access side. So on the front desk. And so I enjoy [00:16:30] working with people looking for information. And so that was just another aspect of my my career. Um, and I really enjoyed that sort of work. Um, and so you know, So it's putting, you know, a private interest, which is the gay gay side of my life, Um, together with the, um, my work, which is librarianship and, um, on on in the public, people inquiring and looking for material. So that's that's really my interests were, um And of course, quite a few of my friends were involved with the archive [00:17:00] at the time, so that was really nice. And it was, you know, um, a nice social thing as well. So I have a real or especially archive, have a real reputation or maybe a stereotype. I don't know for being really organised. Does that mean that your meetings go really easily? Not really. No, we certainly we do take minutes and we do keep the minutes and make sure that we're a bit formal about that, that sort of thing. Is there a big fight for who wants to take the minutes and things like that? No, no. I'm a secretary for the [00:17:30] for the board at the moment. And it's job to do that. Um, that's not a problem. Um, what? Well, I mean, most of the the board itself consists of a number of gay and lesbian men and women who are from outside of the library. Um, and So, um, we have two Maori from, um who are in a group, which is a recent development of getting connections with that group. Um, and because that's one of the outreaches we want to improve aspects of the collection. [00:18:00] Want a larger Maori component or to to see, you know, um, what is, um, around for that would be of interest to the collection. And would the collection be interest to Maori researchers as well? Um, we are particularly. We have one Pacific island person on the group. Um, we have, um I think 34 lesbians on the group, um, who have been involved in in in their communities for a long, long time. Um, and, um, and about three or four gay men on the group. [00:18:30] So it's sort of, um So we're trying to reflect the interests of the gay lesbian community. Um, queer community, um, as much as possible, but we're really quite conscious that we're all getting rather old. We're all sort of, you know, older generation. And there's a whole new generation of young, gay, lesbian whatever people generation of young Liberians. Um I don't know. I think I think there are I mean, we We We, um We hang on to our jobs very securely here, Um, and don't let them go. So [00:19:00] we're a bit, um So there there are, But there are certainly are out there. And, um so is that one of the challenges to to try and attract younger people? I think so, Um, it is interesting that, um, someone made a comment that young people don't really know their past and think What What today is, is how it's always been. And we do have, um, the students from Victoria University come down, um, the, um, the Women's studies group. Um, part of this is gender studies, and they use the archive. Um, [00:19:30] and often, they are quite shocked at the at the, you know, the law reform thing, which was 20 years ago. And either, you know, 25 years ago, which is before they were born, or when they were tiny little kids and, you know, didn't really know it wasn't their thing. Not that long ago. No, no, it's not that long ago, but they know nothing. And, um and they're quite shocked at the attitudes. I mean, the civil union was our recent most recent public spat, I suppose, and fight and the same attitudes came out [00:20:00] there. It was it was almost like how these people hadn't gone away. They were still lurking in the woods and they came out and saying the same horrible things. But fortunately, you know, New Zealand is generally pretty fair minded. They could just see how well I learned nonsense. And they had seen that the world hadn't collapsed with law. Reform happened, Um, and back in 1986 and the world hasn't fallen in and, you know, civilization and their kids were being raped. All that sort of stuff, [00:20:30] all that nonsense that these these, um, fringe extreme groups, um, come out with and it's the only time they get heard of. So it's probably the only time, you know, gives them an excuse to say something. Get the public. So, um so But, you know, that is a worry that, you know, um, people, if they take the current situation for granted and think, Oh, this is how it has always been, and we don't have to do anything. Gradually, their their civil rights, their freedoms will be eroded, and they will, and they'll be subject [00:21:00] to any whim and any you know of who gets into Parliament and what the flavour of the day is. And if it happens, it turns to be anti gay or we all have to be the same or straight or something. Then I think, you know, there are people have to stand up and say No. We are a multicultural society of a diverse nature, some gay, some straight, some intersect. You know, there's a whole variety of of sexualities out there, Um, which I think is probably one of the the recent learnings of people that it's [00:21:30] not just gay and lesbian, but there's a whole variety. And I suspect young people reflect that more now and don't actually just go into the boxes of Gay and Les Butch and them and all these sort of things that very, very strange when you look back, um, people fighting over in the gay community particularly over, you know, um, whether you were a dress or not. And you know, should you, you know, had you be out and you know, all this stuff. Um but I think young people had a whole variety. They still face a lot of pressures [00:22:00] at school or bullying and, um and, um, sort of violent sort of areas. And there's the family is quite a dangerous area, even though it's supposed to be supportive. Um, it can be quite, um, quite dangerous for young gays, lesbians and transgender kids. So, um, they need safe places. Um, and I think a strong community which can help support, um um is really necessary. Still, you know, we can't sort of pretend everything's fine and pack [00:22:30] up and go away. So it's so kind of acts as a I guess, a history holder memo. Keeping our memory alive and and the memory is really important because of, um, I mean, I think you just look at the Maori community and the Treaty of Waitangi. And if the Maori hadn't kept the treaty of alive as a memory, they were a little vanished. I mean, the whole I mean, the reason that, um, they are having settlements and, um, getting their some of their land back and getting the resources back [00:23:00] and getting their communities back together is because of their memory. And I think you know, they've remembered the treaty. They haven't let it Go get some which is now over at national Archives being looked after. And, um and, um, you know, and it is very impressive, um, looking document. And, um, But what it says is that we are a society that, you know, uh, based on a on A on an agreement. And if we if one side forgets that agreement and pretends it doesn't happen, then, um, we're in trouble. And so, um, so [00:23:30] I think, you know, for So the gay and lesbian community need to keep their memory alive, Not in a sort of room of the good old days of the war sort of thing. But, you know, um, you can sort of get stuck in that room, but really looking for opportunities to celebrate our community. Uh, its diversity. Um, So you have, um, exhibitions. So how do you kind of get how do people find out? I guess all young people in particular. Maybe you find out about it. Just students from which we do a wee bit of advertising. We've got a website. [00:24:00] Um, we do need more outreach. We're quite conscious of that. Like, we've got the, um, out games coming up next year, Um, we will be running a conference as part of that out games. And so it's a really good opportunity for the archive to, um, we'll be having so, um, telling our stories basically, sessions, um, as part of the conference, which should be really exciting. Um, we will have. So we've we've published a couple of books on on on from conferences that we've had in the past. [00:24:30] Um, so they are available if people want to, um, buy them. Um So the conference of the art games will be really important as an outreach for us. Remind Wellington yet again that we exist. And, um, also to to interact with the international community when they arrive in Wellington. And, um, you know, are attending this fabulous art games that's going to be here. So yes, that's but, you know, I could get in contact with, um, young people is really difficult. [00:25:00] Um, so if I was, you talked a little bit. I guess about accessibility and quite a lot of the stuff that's in in the archives. If I was a young person or if I was part of a youth group or something, how would I would I bowl on in or what might be really interested in looking at the moment. The archives, in a bit of a strange situation because National Library Building is being redeveloped in Molesworth Street. That's where, where the Turnbull Library Turnbull Library is part of the National Library. It's a bit confusing, but, um, [00:25:30] where so? And it's the research side. And so New Zealand's history was basically researched in the Turnbull Library. So, um, if you know someone's writing a new book about the history of New Zealand, um, that's where they would work. Um, a good part of the work to be done there, and that book would end up in every school, every home in the country. So that's the sort of, you know, again, the Turnbull Library is a powerhouse behind research. And, um, yeah, [00:26:00] so, um, so they got all this fabulous stuff there, And so it includes the gay and lesbian, um, collections, um, part of So we. So the building is closed for refurbishment. At the moment, they are improving the storage conditions and some of the the building. Um, some of the plant was failing and things like that. So it was time to give it a good clean up, and so they decided to move us all out. So we're in temporary locations at the moment, um, one in archives, New Zealand, where some of the Turnbull material is. And that's where the, um, manuscript collection is available. [00:26:30] So that's the unpublished material such as diaries, journals, um, papers, um, from organisations and such, um, the rest of the collection is actually in lockdown. At the moment, it's not available, so which is a sort of pain, but, um, and it will be available again in 2012, and that's the published material. And that was really done because there wasn't enough space to find everything. Find places for everything. Um, and also it was sort of thought, Well, the published material, some of it is available elsewhere. Not not a great [00:27:00] deal, you know, Not all of it. But some of it is, um and so that would be the least impact of closing that side of the collection down. But the organisation is still up and running. And, um, like I say, we're planning for the art games. So to contact anybody, I would just go to the website. Um, we've got lists of things that are available there, Like the list of the manuscript collection. What's available at archives is there so you can scan down those. Um, there's about a couple of 1000 items there, so I'll quite quite large people get quite. It's quite a large [00:27:30] collection. Is it a little bit overwhelming? Um, it is, um it is. And it isn't because a lot of it all big library. It's all packed in beautiful boxes, and it's it's packed in acid free folders. It's, you know, something you'd never do yourself at home. But because the Turnbull has whole high conservation values, um, material that comes in, um is, um, inspected for any infestation. So any little crawly C got rid of, um, they put into a free material, so it lasts [00:28:00] longer. It's kept in, um, temperature controlled rooms and boxes that are, you know, wax boxes that are won't damage the material and so on. So it's all so you have rows of boxes with labels on them, which is not which is not very interesting to look at. Um, but so but you do need to, um but there is wonderful stuff there. Once you start digging through, um, people's, um, there's certainly, um, people's personal experiences. So their own papers, their own letters, Um, a lot of, you know, letter writing to politicians [00:28:30] and things like that. Um, there's, um the Waxing Moon Lesbian archive from Hamilton was was donated recently a few years ago, And that's the and that's, um, basically newspaper and and and and and magazine articles which they clipped and stored and put in some sort of order. Um, so they could find stuff, but it sort of covers a period. So that's like a whole period that's been, um, preserved information about, um, there's a lot of scrap books, [00:29:00] so people have, you know, cut clipping books and and put it into what they're interested in. So that's quite fascinating. Um, so, um, reading some of these things that were published 20 years ago or even longer, Um so, yes, there's those sort of things, Um, the other news newsletters. We get New Zealand and overseas because we, um, for for magazines and books, because that's, um really most of the news. Most New Zealanders didn't have any New Zealand. It wasn't any New Zealand publications when we were growing up. [00:29:30] So it was only overseas, um, gay liberation, early publications in America and Britain. And so we've got quite a lot of that material, and that's really interesting, uh, to read and stuff. So anyone who wants to, um, access the archive, um, they need to go go to the web page, look at the curators and contact one of them. It's sort of by appointment at the moment. Um, when the street building open was open, you could actually just walk in and ask one of the staff. And they would, um, make time to talk to you and sort out what you need. [00:30:00] So that serve that function is where where you can kind of get almost like a tour or yeah, you can. This the thing with the Turnbull is most of the collections behind the stacks, and they won't get you into the Turnbull stacks. Um, because there's just so much pressure stuff there. And security is a high, you know, high thing about the library. Um, but, um, we have a public catalogue, a lot of our material. Like I said, there's a lot of material on the website. There's a list of all the journals and newsletters we have. Um, there's some audio. Um, [00:30:30] search some audio recordings. What we have. Um, so there's a list of, um, manuscript papers that we've got there. Um, and there's some other links and some other papers. Um, we've got two books at the moment 20 years on and outlines of lesbian and gay history, which were based on conferences and a really quite an interesting read. Um, So contact one of the curators from there and make an appointment because they're actually living in different buildings from the collection now. So So they have to. They they walking in, um, vote, actually. Uh, though you would have [00:31:00] to wait anyway. So it's best just to, um you email them and tell them what you're looking for. And we can say whether it's available or not, um, and suggest ways of of, of finding the information that's not available. There is a huge amount on the internet now, so I suppose you know. So the needs for for for for immediate stuff is not not that necessary now, as it was years ago. Brilliant. Thank you. Very, very much for taking time and telling us about the extensive, extensive kind of archives of legends. [00:31:30] Well, you're very welcome.

IRN: 167
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/jonathan_obrien_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003868
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089162
TITLE: Jonathan OBrien
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Jonathan O'Brien
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; Auckland; Jonathan O'Brien; Wellington; drag; gay; performance; profile; transcript online
DATE: 16 September 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Jonathan O'Brien talks about growing up and doing drag.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm Jonathan O'Brien, and I guess I got into drag about six years ago. Um, it had been something that I was kind of interested in from a young age. I sort of first got interested in it in high school when we were studying feminist art, and I felt like I connected with a lot of what the feminist artists were trying to say in the seventies. So I decided that if I was ever going to be a drag queen, my name would be Judy Chicago, [00:00:30] after the feminist artist who did the dinner party, that's probably one of her most famous pieces. What were some of the things that you keyed into at high school? What were they saying? The feminists, you know, anyone can be anyone. So like Cindy Sherman posing and a lot of her self portraits as all these different stereotypes of women and sort of deconstructing them and reconstructing them. And [00:01:00] so if you're able to deconstruct an identity, you can create a new one out of anything, and that's kind of what drag is like for me. So what age were you thinking? Those thoughts, um, they were, well, I had sort of gender sexuality issues in high school, where I was sort of thinking about you know, what it means to be gay [00:01:30] and what it means to be gay. If you were raised Catholic, what it means to be a boy like I'd wear pigtails to school and see what people, how people reacted like. And so I just tried to like, you know, destabilise boundaries that I found quite restrictive and growing up in white middle class papakura and just started, you know, playing around with how I dressed [00:02:00] and how I thought. And it wasn't really until I went to university and moved into Auckland City that I met other people who were gay and were queer and were performers. And I figured that drag was the kind of performance direction that I wanted to go in. Just going back to your high school days. How did other people react to what you were [00:02:30] doing? Um, my teachers all thought that I was lovely and troubled and most of, like, other guys at school were just like, Oh, you're a fag. And I was like, Yes, but what does that mean? And so I was kind of trying to get more out of them, and it didn't really work. But, um, I had a fairly supportive school counsellor who was like, Don't worry, you [00:03:00] know, things will sort themselves out when you leave high school. And now the college that I was at was Rosa College, and now they have a really good queer sexuality support system in place. So at that age, how do you have that kind of inner strength to kind of challenge stereotypes? I don't know. Where does anyone get their inner strength from really Mum? I had a pretty fierce mother and a fierce grandmother. I had lots of really strong [00:03:30] female role models, So I lived with my mum for a long time after she kicked dad out. And then I lived with my grandmother and grandfather for a while, and my grandmother was this bolshy Jewish holocaust survivor who was Yeah, she probably taught she lived in a strength. So I was probably a lot from watching people like her. And so, from those high school experiences, what did you take out of the that, uh, that [00:04:00] people react to difference in different ways, and I guess I learned more about how I responded to their reactions. So if their negative react, if their reactions were negative, did it actually affect me? And by the time I was finishing high school, it didn't and sort of set me up for just being comfortable with doing whatever I felt like doing, I guess. How [00:04:30] did your family react? When I first came out to my dad, I was probably 18, and he said to me like he was all fine with that. He was like, Yes, we we've sort of, you know, known that for a while. But do you want to be a woman? And I was like, No, Dad, I'm gay I. I like the idea of two cocks together. That's the point. And then, um, [00:05:00] two years later, I started doing drag, and I didn't really know how he'd react to that because of the question he'd asked when I first came out. So one night I was living with him at the time, and one night he and my stepmother had gone out. So I was just, you know, practising makeup at home and just got into full drag. And then I was just sitting in the lounge watching TV and they came home from being out and I was just in there with a big blonde wig and bright blue dress, and they just walked in and looked at me and said, [00:05:30] Hi, son. So will we be seeing you like this more often? And I just said yes. And it was fun. So how do you see drag? Is it a performance thing, or is it something more? Uh, originally when I first started doing it, I guess it was something more. I wasn't really sure of my own gender situation and what being male or female really meant for me, [00:06:00] And I've been doing lots of theatre as well. So I sort of mixed the the issues together and found myself a drag mother and started doing drag regularly. And then it kind of became, um, a shield or a sort of armour. And I think that's something for a lot of drag queens is that being in drag is kind of like, you know, putting up a defence almost or a mask that affords you a lot of confidence [00:06:30] and distance from people. So, you know, I didn't have to worry about whether or not a guy liked me because I wasn't out looking for sex. I was out being glamorous and tragic and outrageous. And at that point in the early point when I was first doing drag like my drag character was quite distinct from me as Jonathan. And [00:07:00] I guess I wasn't sure who I wanted to be. And so sometimes I'd spend a lot of time in drag and maybe go to university in drag. And then as my life progressed and I got more experience with relationships and with sex, I kind of realised that, you know, being male was what I wanted to be. And being a man with a man was where I was most comfortable [00:07:30] and drag just became more of a a performance space, uh, hobby, something fun to do, something to entertain people with, something to entertain myself with and didn't really. I didn't really need to hold it as that sort of magic feather. I didn't need to, you know, hold on, to drag, to be able to fly. I'm wondering if you could define [00:08:00] drag. How would you define drag? I guess drag to me would mean a member of one sex performing and presenting themselves in an over the top manner representative of the gender, traditionally recognised as the opposite to what they were born into. [00:08:30] But there's an element of performance. Is is that Is that the key thing? Is it? Yeah, and definitely perform well. I mean, even if you're not on stage, it's still a performance. Like you don't just go out as a drag king or a drag queen. You go out and you are performing. You're performing in a character. Really? How long did it take for [00:09:00] you to find your drag character? Well, I found three, but, um, it didn't take long at all. Really. Like I had a really good drag mother who Her name was C, and she was very good makeup artist and very confident and very camp and very hilarious and witty. [00:09:30] And I just emulated a lot of her behaviours in styles and sort of found myself quite quickly and ended up winning Miss Drag Auckland about eight months after I started doing drag. So that was a lot and yeah, II. I found that my interests and, you know, like high camp and old Broadway musicals and catch [00:10:00] glamour and tragic heroes and all the sorts of like, gay, archetypal kind of characters that a lot of the nightclub scene were unfamiliar with or weren't into. Um, sort of fell into all those things fell into my basket, and nobody else was really doing them at the time. So it, yeah, firmed up a character for me quite nicely. And then, as [00:10:30] I just experimented with different looks and different styles of music and different styles of makeup and different eras and different aspects of performance and personality, I found other people to be Judy Chicago's alter egos. Just before we get on to a description of the personas, can you tell me how you go about finding a drag mother? So I'd been on the gay scene in [00:11:00] Auckland for about two years before I started doing drag, and I'd seen all the drag queens around, and I had no idea how to sort of get into doing that. I didn't just want to turn up in a wig and an ugly dress made of curtains with a bit of makeup smeared on my face because you just, you know, get laughed out of town. So, um, one of my friends was friends with a couple of drag queens, and I met them at her 21st birthday and she introduced me to them [00:11:30] and I got their number and then hung out with them and then, you know, just said, Yeah, I'd love for you to put me in drag. And so she did You just find someone and latch yourself to them. What was that first experience like, um, it was heady. It was mixed with a lot of drugs and alcohol [00:12:00] and heels that I couldn't walk in properly and address from an op shop, but amazing hair and makeup. And I just felt like a movie star and felt like I had access to anywhere. I wanted to go and could get away with anything. So, um, describe for me the, um your personas OK, uh, Judy Chicago [00:12:30] is sort of my like base character, and she is more or less mean now, really in drag, but, you know, exaggerated. So she's a lot camper, and she's a bit fruity. And she likes jazz and Judy Garland and floral and big hair, Big, big hair. And Gertrude Stein is [00:13:00] quite ugly but clever and interested in cooking and hideous seventies prints and curly hair and glasses and nylon polymer is kind of a bit of a trip, and it's just usually in white face and bizarre postmodern blends of things like laundry Baskets and [00:13:30] Marie Antoinette Here and KBS and the three of them get along well in my head. Do you ever find the taking you over? No, not at all. I did used to feel that Judy Chicago was taking over when I was, you know, going through a bit of an identity crisis. And, you know, if I was feeling down or whatever, I would fall back into that confident persona that I had constructed [00:14:00] and that confident persona just happened to be a drag queen. So sometimes, you know, I not feel like I could go out to a club not in drag, because I didn't feel confident enough or I didn't feel pretty enough or whatever. So talk to me about identity crises. I guess for a while I was living with my parents who lived or I was living with my father, who lived on the shore, so [00:14:30] I had to come into town to socialise with anyone and I had a lot of different groups of friends, and I felt like I was a different person with each of these different groups of friends. And I was trying to work out who I was without them and who I felt comfortable being and who I wanted to be and who I wanted to be seen as being. And at that point, I just didn't [00:15:00] really feel like being Jonathan. I guess I didn't really know who he was, but I had a more definite idea of who Judy Chicago was. So she yeah, she kind of took over. And yeah, for a lot of other drag queens I've spoken to, they feel like their drag personas can take over a lot as well. And sometimes you just got to put the drag in a bag and hide her. Now, drag wasn't confined to those personas because you were also doing some study [00:15:30] around that area as well, weren't you? Yeah, I was. Well, I was doing a degree in psychology and linguistics, so I was quite interested in gender and language. And I was also, um, the cultural affairs officer for the Students Association. I got Judy Chicago to run as that position, which just made it a little bit more fun for me and for anyone else, really. And I did a research project [00:16:00] on how drag queens in Auckland spoke and how that differed from how they would speak as gay men, or how they would speak as men in general and just looked at the intersectionality of the different cultural groups around Auckland and the influences that they all had on drag culture. So, like there's a strong Polynesian and Maori influence [00:16:30] on a lot of just some of the phrases that people say. And that's probably because there's, uh, a high population of Polynesian and Maori people who are involved in the queer community in Auckland, especially in the performance industry as well. And that's where a lot of drag queen, like some of the best drag queens in New Zealand, uh, Polynesian and Maori, and just also looking at, like the influence of African American drag on or African American gay culture [00:17:00] on gay culture in New Zealand and how that affects the way drag queens speak and act and the looks that they adopt as well, and then looking at sort of our trans Tasman relationship with Sydney and Sydney has a very sort of polished, glamorous drag image. And at the moment, Auckland's looking a lot more like Sydney drag wise. So can you give me some examples In terms of speech or looks? [00:17:30] I guess there's just all sorts of little things, like a lot of drag, Queens will say instead of girl. And it's a gay thing as well and killed her sister and talking about someone being like, Oh, is she is she gay? Is he gay? Is he family and little polari phrases like and uber when you're talking about a wig [00:18:00] and and trolling and there's just lots of like little, there's lots of little idiosyncrasies that strong personalities have that rub off on others as well. Like I know Robin has a way of talking that is very loud and scary and powerful, and a lot of people put that on. Sometimes, just for the uninitiated, could you go back through some of those words and define what they are? [00:18:30] So I put a I put a as a drag queens pussy, and it's usually covered up by three pairs of stockings. Um, an uber is a lace front wig trolling, you know, trolling for trade, stalking for boys to have sex with or John's clients. Whatever, um, cracking it. Basically, prostitution [00:19:00] Is prostitution a big thing in the in the drug scene? Not really. No, I don't know many drag queens who actually work as prostitutes in drag just because it's so much effort to get in drag. You don't want it to all, you know, get smudged off by some big eager man. Um, it's probably not really worth the trouble. I mean, doing drag is relatively expensive. If you're doing it [00:19:30] well, I suppose, although in saying that you can actually do drag really cheaply and amazingly, it just depends on what look you're going for, really. The $2 shop in the warehouse that I most drag queen's favourite shops, I think, um, but yeah, no, I know a few girls who do it sometimes, maybe for a new week or whatever, but I don't think it's AAA large aspect [00:20:00] of drag culture. So what were your findings in your research? I guess I just found the importance of understanding the the way other drag queens spoke so that you could speak their language and be part of the community and so reinforcing solidarity through this stylized form of discourse. Um, and you know, it's [00:20:30] a sense of belonging. It's a sense of exclusivity, almost and a sense of family. And I think, you know, for a lot of young gay men coming into the gay scene, they're kind of lost. And you see this sort of drag sisterhood as a ready made group that you can be adopted into. And you just learn the customs and the practises and you have a family, so it's quite friendly. There's there's not a competitive [00:21:00] edge. It's it's I'd say it's very competitive. But that competition in itself reinforces the friendships. So you know you're constantly trying to make yourself better, and your friends are trying to make you better and make themselves better, and you give each other a hard time to make each other try harder so it can be really bitchy. But it's ingested most of the time, and [00:21:30] you know you can rely on your sisters if you need to. Have you found that it's mostly gay men that do drag or do you do do straight men do drag as well. Well, uh, yeah, a lot of straight men do do drag. I mean, with the queen of the whole universe in New Zealand, that kind of presents an opportunity for a whole lot of people to do drag in a really structured and safe environment. So, you know, they go through rehearsals, [00:22:00] they get told how to dress or what style to dress. They have someone else doing their makeup for them and I. I guess people who do drag occasionally aren't really drag queens as such, because they're not immersed in the culture and the practise. But that's something they can do for fun. And like I know with Queen of the whole universe, we've had large numbers of straight men and straight women and gay women and mostly gay men come through [00:22:30] and perform as Queens every year. And the whole bio queen movement is growing all over the world. So a bio queen is a woman who dresses up as a drag queen. So, you know, you could almost say Lady Gaga is a bio queen. But, um, my favourite bio queen would be Nique, who's an amazing performance artist. Um, she's involved in the Tranny Shack group in the States, and she's [00:23:00] just fierce. Um, and we've also got a few bio queens in New Zealand as well. You know, it's just girls kind of seeing that hyper femininity is this arena that isn't really open to them very often anymore. And they want to, you know, draw their eyebrows up high and put ridiculous amounts of eyeshadow on and giant wigs and [00:23:30] of Why have an excuse to do it when you can just go out and be a queen? What do you think is the biggest thrill for you doing drag? I have the most fun in drag when I'm hanging, when I'm with other drag queens and performing. So getting the buzz of you know of rehearsing and putting together a show and then being on stage with the people you've been working with or in front of people and [00:24:00] being a spectacle Yeah, a lot of it is just about making something fabulous and having a good time doing it is drag all about the kind of present in the now. Or does it have a A history? Are people aware of a history in drag? Yeah, definitely. There's a long, long history. I've done a lot of research on the history of drag and looked into different forms of drag all around the world and different [00:24:30] forms of, you know, gender transgression or subversion or whatever. And I find all of that really interesting, whereas other drag queens are just like Brittany is so fucking hot. I want to look like her right now, and that's cool. You know, you don't need the history to be amazing, but it's cool to know it. It's fantastic to know that it, like even in New Zealand, we have a strong local history of drag going back about 50 years. And [00:25:00] how is that passed down if you hadn't gone researched? I mean, is it in within the community within drag queens themselves that are passing that history down in in Wellington? We lack a lot of drag history now because most of the older drag queens have moved on, and so we've got a lot of orphan drag queens or motherless drag queens. But, um, like in Auckland, there's a fairly steady generational handing down of the knowledge of drag [00:25:30] and knowledge of the girls who came before and you know, we have things like the trust and that sort of thing that recognised that. You know, these people have been pretty fabulous and they've been around for a while. And the knowledge of who these people are is Yeah, it's definitely around, like most of the drag queens around today would know about performances in the early nineties and eighties, the studio and staircase [00:26:00] and things like that. And how is that history seen? Uh, are those older drag queens and their memories that they celebrated? Or is it are they set up as as something that was kind of weird or Yeah, again, it all depends on which drag Queen is around like some older drag queens are just seen as a bit weird. And then some of them are celebrated for being completely outrageous and of [00:26:30] their time or before their time. And some of them are still the most fierce bitches around. Yeah, Do you think there's any kind of age limit, uh, for people in doing drag? Definitely not. No, Peter Taylor is still doing drag, and he's probably, like 100 years old by now. Um, and he's still fabulous. And the youngest person I know who started doing drag was probably about 14. [00:27:00] But there's also, you know, blurry lines with transgender issues as well. You know, like some people start out as a drag queen or doing drag and or cross dressing or whatever, and then they start doing it more often, and then that person becomes who they are and who they want to be or who they've always wanted to be. So there's Yeah, there are strong links between drag communities and transgender [00:27:30] communities and people and individuals. What do you think the hardest part of of doing drag is, um, for me, probably the hardest part has been juggling drag with a partner. Um, you know, gay men are gay men because they're attracted to men, and my partner is not attracted to drag queens. Even though he met me when I was in drag, he was, [00:28:00] you know, just keen to see me as a boy, and that's who he likes. And so when I'm in drag, he kind of feels like I'm a different person and not the person that he's in love with, but he understands that I'm still there. I'm just playing, so yeah, ju. Juggling my sisters with my boyfriend has probably been the trickiest part of being a drag queen. And the funniest part, the funnest part is stumbling [00:28:30] down to a kebab shop with a bunch of drag queens whose lips have been getting bigger and bigger all night and gorging yourself before getting a taxi home and just the looks on everyone's faces around you with these three tragic queens or four tragic queens or two or five whatever, just looking completely and completely conspicuous and out of place. So talk to me about reactions like when you're walking around in town. [00:29:00] Do they vary from city to city? Uh, yeah. Reactions definitely vary from city to city and street to street as well. Like if you're going down K Road, it's kind of knowing that that's where drag queens live. And if you're going to, if you're going to K Road on a weekend night, you're going to bump into a drag queen. So you're on the turf pretty much and oh yeah, I never really had [00:29:30] it. I think once somebody said to me, What makes you think you can get away with wearing that? And I just said, because I can, and they were like, Oh, OK, and that was fine. And then in Palmerston North, I did a gig with a friend, and the gig was at I think it was at Club Q. I think that's what it's called there. And so when we finished our gig, we were like, Right, let's go hit the town And we were denied from about four [00:30:00] or five different clubs because we didn't meet the dress code and we weren't even wearing anything particularly outrageous or skimpy. And, yeah, it was just clear that we weren't welcome there, and we find that we ended up finding one place that would let us in. But the reactions weren't particularly positive. And then in Wellington, like on Cuba Street, pretty much everything's fine. And then you walk down Courtney Place [00:30:30] and you get called faggot by a bunch of guys and beautiful by their girlfriends. So, yeah, it just depends on who you bump into and who's out at the time. Do you get more reaction in drag or or just, um, as a boy, definitely get more reactions and drag? I mean, as a boy, I I mostly just wear black and grey and blue, Um, and [00:31:00] and drag. I mostly wear purple and fu and lime and bright colours. And yeah, people really like people really appreciate it in most places that I end up in like a lot of people just come up to me like, you know, thank you for just adding a little bit of colour, and that's really nice, because that's kind of a big part of the reason why drag queens do it is because they want to bring a bit of colour to something and make people [00:31:30] happy and make sure that people are having fun. Sometimes that fun isn't welcome, and that's fine, too. In in Wellington, there's not much of a drag scene and the comm, the gay community isn't really that keen on drag and drag performances. And I just think that's because there's no real like strong drag coordinator, [00:32:00] like we used to have poly filler living in Wellington and she was great at holding a drag community together and organising events and being a great role model for people. And when she left, I think a lot of that just dissipated. And so Wellington, I guess, is waiting for its next true diva to stand up and unite the queens. So we were talking just before about, uh, drag mothers. [00:32:30] And I'm wondering, are you now a drag mother? Do you have drag Children? Well, now that I'm an elderly six year old drag queen, Um, yeah, I have I do have drag Children. I I didn't for a long time because I didn't really know anyone who sort of fitted what I would want in a daughter. But, um, one of my dear friends who shared a lot of my interests and gender and performance and colour [00:33:00] and film and theatre and music um, I she he he he she he had, you know, watched me do drag for about two years. And I sort of suggested that maybe he would be interested. And I was living with him at the time, and he was just like, Oh, yes, yes. Oh, God, yes. I want to be your drag daughter, please. And you know, I wanted someone I could share my style with and share [00:33:30] the the films and history that had sort of inspired me like a lot of John Waters films and Andy Warhol's films and the drag queens of New York that I was really interested in. And the coquettes And, um So, yeah, I just showed him all of that. And then one night, we just I was like, Right here's a bunch of old costumes that you can have and did his face and showed him how to do her face and put [00:34:00] her in a few weeks and started taking her out. So yeah, I have my own little daughter and her name is GAA Octavia seizure. And she's very much an Earth mother and sequence. And I also have a step drag daughter as well, whose own mother passed away. And so I sort of adopted her. Um, I guess [00:34:30] for me being a drag queen has been really useful and finding out who I am and finding out what I can do and who I can be. And I made a lot of really, really, really good friends through drag, whereas sometimes all we have in common to begin with is the fact that we want to dress up in ridiculous costumes and run around town screaming and progress from there. So, yeah, I just really appreciate everything that I've got from my involvement with drag [00:35:00] and drag performers and the performers associated with that culture. What's your ultimate drag act? I really like drag and theatre and acting and comedy like I really like the drag that happens in New York. A lot of it's a little bit itchy, and it's less defined in its boundaries of what is drag Like. Some drag queens will say that you know, to [00:35:30] be a drag queen, you've got to be wearing a wig or you've got to be wearing heels or whatever and then others will be like All you need is some lip gloss and some bright eye shadow. And who gives a fuck about wearing tits? Whatever. And yeah, II. I like those de destabilised performance types. Yeah, but I also really like the high glamour that happens in [00:36:00] kind of female impersonator shows where people dress up as li or share or anything like that. One of my one of my favourite shows that I ever did was I did a half male, half female, half man, half woman cabaret act for the Auckland Festival in 2005, and that was a lot of fun because it it was quite challenging, actually creating a male character who had [00:36:30] to be just as extreme as the drag side. And so, you know, I already had Judy Chicago established as a persona, but Jack London needed to find himself, and so he just became this revolting, sort of sleazy, Jewish used car salesman wannabe stand up comedian. And so, for that show, Judy Sang and Jack interrupted her and kept trying to tell jokes. And [00:37:00] it was in a really intimate space in the, um, the Winter Garden in the Civic, and I just Yeah, I really enjoyed being involved in something like a cabaret like that.

IRN: 193
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/charlotte_museum.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003869
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089163
TITLE: Charlotte Museum
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Jenny Rankine; Miriam Saphira
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 2000s; Auckland; Charlotte Museum; Jenny Rankine; Mahinarangi Tocker; Miriam Saphira; Wai Ho; archives; history; lesbian; transcript online
DATE: 15 September 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Miriam Saphira and Jenny Rankine talk about the Charlotte Museum. The museum collects and preserves artefacts of lesbian culture such as labrys, music, theatre, film, literature, art and other memorabilia from early lesbian life in New Zealand.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: A. A group of us started talking about having some Auckland archives to try and send things to the Wellington archives. I'd been involved in the Wellington archives and then in 2003, we didn't get very far. And then 2003 was the outlines conference, and I took the quilt there with all the t-shirts sewn together and the badge collection down, thinking that'd be wonderful And the lesbian and gay archives in Wellington. But oh, no, The National Library collects paper. [00:00:30] I know I didn't realise that they're real paper focus, and it's also quite hard to get access to the things so they don't have a permanent display or anything. So I sort of came back to Auckland, lugged them back and thought, What about all those art things like open the cabinet there they would all just disappear. Um, some people might keep them and hand them on to relatives and so on. And they think, Oh, that's quaint or whatever, but they really wouldn't understand the the lesbianism of things. And I thought [00:01:00] it'll all vanish. So I talked to the group, the archive sort of group, which changed a bit Um and we came up. Well, let's have a museum, lesbian museum and then, well, what's in that other museums? Surely there's some lesbian stuff in New Zealand museums, so that's what the Internet is good for. We punched it in and we got four things. We got a picture of two women in a picture of them in Siberia. Two [00:01:30] English women in Siberia. They were obviously lesbian, but they had visited New Zealand. And so that was the New Zealand component of the Yes, And there were three cartoons of Helen Clark. And I thought, If that is the history of lesbians in New Zealand and all we have achieved over more than a century, then it is really sad. So that was an impetus. I mean, I was so angry. That was an impetus to give me a lot of energy. So when was that? That was 2003. [00:02:00] 2004. So I set about investigating setting up a trust and those sort of things. And by 2007, we had our first exhibition at the D Thing at Marco Trust and waited for our, um, our trustee. We did in 2006 to get registered, and and that was a thing in itself because I rang up to see how it had progressed, and he said, Oh, it's illegal And I said, Well, it shouldn't be a problem illegal. [00:02:30] It's a standard trusted form written half, half Maori. It's, um we all we've done is put our our aims in it. We haven't changed almost anything else except put our name through it. And then I said, But we're used to discrimination. It'll be sitting on someone who can't cope desk. So he said, Oh, I'll ring you back And by three o'clock in the afternoon, he rang me back and said, It's passed that little magic word all we used to discrimination [00:03:00] seems to actually pay off sometimes. So we set about finding premises, finding money and setting it up. Has that was that a real mission? Has it been a real mission, or has there been quite a lot of support? There's been some support from people in the community, some very good support, and a couple of women put in about 14,000 the first year and and then another 6 7000. I think it was last year. Um, so each year, [00:03:30] there have been some backers, um, who've put in, you know, several 1000. Um, other other people put in, you know, several 100. Um, pay a bit. But But if everyone in the community paid, as I say, a latte a month, like less than $5 a month, that to be a friend of the museum, that would make a big difference. In fact, we're just trying to do an outreach now for that. So there's heaps of, um, really fantastic visual stuff here, [00:04:00] Um, which I guess some of it would be paper, but yeah, just like you said before. There's the, um Is this a quilt with a whole lot of t-shirts? Two of them. We've got two of them, so we alternate them because they start to sag after a while, hanging them up. So we have, uh we have another one that we bring out every six months, and there's heaps of posters and, um, old photographs, big photographs, little photographs. Um, yeah, just a whole whole heap here. How did you come about all this? Did you put a big call [00:04:30] out or was it all sitting in your basement. It was around my house. My house was renowned for having masses of women's images and things and some of the things I acquired, for instance, that lovely glass jar of ours by Done by Karen Hope, the one that's sort of quite yes, there's the one about her, her grandmother wanting to be a doctor but married one instead. Um, the other one. So it's a more feminist one, but this one is very essential. And, um, [00:05:00] that, uh, pale one. I saw that in the Waikato Museum for sale, and I couldn't bear the thought of a man buying it. So, um, I just had to buy it. And now we have had a very generous donor who's brought, um, replicas of museum items from Crete about the ancients. So there's things with laris on that beautiful silver egg cup. There's, um, pieces of ceramic. There's a snake goddess, the snake goddess there. That's one she donated the other [00:05:30] snake gods I brought back from Crete. Um, there's a ceramic. They have two punk girls kissing that was made by a lesbian psychologist in the Waikato. So this each one has a little story about it. Um, there's some lovely pieces of, um, ceramics by Cornell, and she also did the weaving of the up there. Um, those are pieces that Auckland Museum quite like the look of and would like to put their hand get their hands on them. But I mean, again, [00:06:00] they wouldn't label them as lesbian maid or anything that would just disappear into, um, an exhibition of work, Not not what we're about, Really. The lovely carving of the two women. And I haven't got that story yet because I can never get anybody at home with a telephone number. I was given for that piece. So it takes a while to get the stories for things. And then there's the carving of Chrissy Paul that was always in my house, and I always felt my house was very safe with that, and I thought, I really need to donate it to the museum, [00:06:30] but it's on loan because that piece needs to be handled in a particular way when we put it up and take it down. So I've kept it as a loan. That and those pieces are the only pieces just because I want to make sure that they are very secure and handled in an appropriate way for Maori artefacts. So, um, everything else has has been donated. Lots of t-shirts, some fabulous ones, um, with great, um, slogans on [00:07:00] some very historical things. Like the early gay pride from 1980 I think it was or 79 a soccer t-shirt. There's, um of course, there's some labs. Uh, and the lab, the gold ones. Some of them were used for cheerleaders. They used to run around in tutus and gum boots and wave labs. Come on, you lovely lesbians. You know, great cheerleading team was the soccer team. [00:07:30] Um, there was also a softball team, but we don't have any of their uniforms yet. We've got various coming out stories on DVD that we put on for people to listen to. Um and I'm busy trying to get some more money so we can have a smaller screen so people can just put earphones on and do them individually when they come in. And that's what I'm working on now. And I want to use clips of films so they wouldn't be so long. Just three or four minutes. I saw it in Brisbane at an exhibition there, and I thought, [00:08:00] That's what we need What's been some of the when you said that you were sitting setting up the Charlotte Museum Trust or some of the responses, I guess, of lesbians in particular about who? Mostly positive, Um, one or two people found it difficult They didn't want to be in a museum. Yeah, um, and they didn't want their photos to be in a museum, or they they didn't like the idea of lesbianism in a museum. Um, so, you know, perhaps [00:08:30] perhaps weren't out and proud as much as some of the rest of us. A little bit of pride. You mean kind of worried about turning it into a spectacle or just uncomfortable about it, or I'm not sure what we put in. So that seems to be, uh, was a bit of a problem for like, Papa, when they heard about it, came up to my house to see what we had. Um, they were a bit suspicious, but they also of course, then saw some of the things that I had [00:09:00] in my house and they were keen on them for their museums. And that's one of the problems that museums are always eyeing other things and other people's museums. Because I think that they've got a goddess in Auckland Museum that I think that we should have. They could just do trades. So, um, the general feedback we've just done a, um, feedback survey. Um, we did it online and sent PDF S around the country to our, um, mailing list. Um, [00:09:30] and we also, um, gave them out the big day out, and we've got sort of 50 or so. You know, you never get a really great response from these things, But the we asked how important was the lesbian museum and almost everybody took it? Almost everybody, even even the bloke. I think we've got one guy who responded who has visited the museum. So basically, um, there's an awful lot of lesbians, and I think they are sort of, you know, just the tip of the iceberg who think that this is a really important place. Can [00:10:00] you talk a little bit about I guess, the importance of a museum historically wise. And I guess I guess lesbian history, intergenerational as well. Well, for me, I I knew I was homosexual. by the time I was 14. Because that was when I looked it up in the Encyclopaedia and it said homosexuals had arrested development. So I thought they were all short and spent years looking for short people. And then, of course, realised I'd grown so tall that I was a freak. I was the only tall homosexual in the world. [00:10:30] So you weren't in the Encyclopaedia? No, and sadly, I mean, I was training as a singer and sadly, I swallowed poison and burned all my throat so that that I never want that to happen to anybody else to be so feel so bad about themselves. And I didn't have any mentors. Sure, there was a short teacher at school who lived with with a tall teacher. But, I mean, I didn't really, because I was into horses at that stage. When I was at high school, I didn't really click about the nature of their relationships. [00:11:00] So bucket and spade were always bucket and spade. That was our nicknames for these two teachers, and it was much later before I realised that these pair of teachers who lived together were actually my mentors. But I was so naive and into horses that it didn't occur to me into horses. And my girlfriend, um, whom I really wanted to marry. So I was devastated when I'm in straight because I wanted. So you managed to find you. You did manage to find a girlfriend. Who was She was. She was short [00:11:30] and she was straight. And she in fact, wouldn't talk to me. We went to teachers college together, and that's the reason I went to Teachers College and left the farm. But she, uh, met a guy in my, uh, the athletic team that I was friendly with, and she never really spoke to me much after that, um married him, and she's still with him so very straight. But what else? I mean, that's what lesbians and small communities [00:12:00] do fall in love with straight women because they can't find other people like themselves. It's quite quite difficult. Visibility is really important. And having mentors, I think, makes things enormously better for people to have to know that someone's done it before to know that that you come from a history that you know that you know where you've come from and where you might so then you can know where you're going because I always [00:12:30] think if you don't know where you've paddled your canoe from, how do you know where you're paddling to? That's what some of the feedback is. Um, that, um, I wanted to One of the young women said I wanted to see the stories of the older women that made it possible for me to be out and gay. Um, and and so many of them say, um, it's just really important that this place exists, you know that these stories are gathered in one place, Um, that that lesbian history is valued and told, [00:13:00] Um and it's just really neat to see these women up on the walls. Um, because a lot of the women up on the walls were women. Um, uh, people in their sort of to fifties would have heard about, um growing up. You know, um, they are well known women, you know, founders of organisations like the Country Women's Institute, you know, various. Uh yes. And that's really important to know that these women were like me, you know, [00:13:30] and knowing that they managed to avoid most of them, married a avoided getting married uh, some of them didn't, but and they managed to lead their lives like the theologian Rita Snow, and lived quite openly. She died about 1947 but there's a picture of her with her partner, Renee, and they lived quite openly together. Um, they belong to different churches. On Sunday, they went off to their separate churches, so they didn't quite clone as much as, um, lesbians today might do. So you think, [00:14:00] um, visibility is still an issue today? Ah, in some areas, it is. There are still plenty of areas where people choose to be more closet. Um, people in the media are one because they get such a hard time. Uh, sports people is another. We've just been doing research on sport. Um, and it's amazing the number of people who find it really difficult to to really tell us how it was as [00:14:30] a lesbian in in, uh, a sporting the sporting field that were in because they don't want to be out of, even though they're no longer participating in that sport. Um, yeah, it's so there's still, um, there's still the stigma, and I think a lot of internalised homophobia, but among older people that still exists. Like for years. You thought you were no good and terrible. It's very hard to overcome that when you've been thinking that every day for your life for 40 or 50 years to suddenly [00:15:00] turn around and think, Oh, everything's honky dory Now I can skip around amongst the days. Yes, you know, it's not so easy. So the Charlotte Museum does some research. I mean, it has a lot of artefacts and pictures and and books and magazines and does research. Does it have a mentor thing as well? Or what's some other stuff? That it? No, we We try and fundraise and get and pay people to do some research. So we've done some research on Early [00:15:30] Lesbian Theatre early lesbian music, and that's going to be put together into a film and also a little book. Um, the Theatre one is up on that board there, and we've got a book about that. Um, we're currently working on early lesbian sport, early women's networks and groups of lesbians in the Auckland area, um, and and early in Auckland. So, you know, we're going as fast as we can with the with the resources that we have, but we [00:16:00] never get very much money to do these things. The other thing we're doing is organising events. Um, and we've we've, um, done a range of events. Um, since the beginning of this year, Um, the first one was, um, an ANZAC Day event. And And this time, instead of inviting lesbians from armed services, we invited some lesbians who'd been in peace groups. They were the pre and they'd walked around the east cape, Um, for, um, sort of 23 months in the middle of summer, 1983. And they were [00:16:30] a little sort of, um, discombobulated to find themselves now the subject of a museum because they were only in their forties, you know? But they were lesbians and feminists, and they did this amazing action, you know, And it was a peace action. And there's so many lesbians involved in peace, um, activities over the last 30 50 years that, um I think we'll have lots of ANZAC day events like that. Um, another event we had was, um, the Centenary of the birth of who was a N songwriter. Extraordinary [00:17:00] woman of of huge mana acknowledged right across Maori who only had relationships with women and and was, uh, a bunch of Children. And, um, whenever get up and sing, it's practically, you know, they practically always sing one of 20 songs, and we have some here, um, who spoke about her. And it was a really neat event. Um, we had, you know, a bunch of Maori and lesbians came to to that one. [00:17:30] and we also had the two intergenerational events. Um, one was organised for youth week. Um, and we got a lot of really positive feedback about that, and the first one was completely inclusive of all G LBTT people. Um, and, um, the young gay men, particularly were, um young queer guys were really interested in. And the sense of anticipation when that event started was just tangible. You know, um, there was this really expectant silence, you know, it was [00:18:00] it was just wonderful. And where there were 60 more than 60 young people or people there and 40 of them were, you know, probably under 25. And it was just, uh, a really positive event. Then we had the follow up event, um, with women and that sort of um showed quite a few differences in the community, but I hope people, um, felt it was a good event. It was very, um, what's the word? Um, there was a huge enthusiasm for that dialogue. [00:18:30] Um, it's not something that we would necessarily be able to do a regular, A regular thing, but we wanted to kick it off, you know, And And the role of the Charlotte Museum in holding that kind of community event, I think, is quite important because there's no sort of women's venue that focuses on queer lesbian issues, you know, in Auckland. And so the Charlotte Museum has become a sort of de facto, um queer Lesbian Women's Centre. Really? And so, for example, um, a couple of years [00:19:00] ago, when um, to died, um, there were women who weren't able to get to her house or to her, which was down the line. And so, you know, um, we organised, um, a sort of just a a memorial event, you know? I mean, it was just an opportunity for those women who contacted, um, Miriam and I in various hats that we were wearing at the time, um, saying, Oh, this is terrible. You know, I, I just really have missed having an opportunity to talk about it. [00:19:30] And so that was open. That was a, uh you know, like, all our events are open to the public we had, um you know, um, men, women, trans men, trans women. You know, it was, um uh, a really lovely event. And some came, you know, which was just I, I thought was enormously generous of them in their grief, You know, to do that a week after she died, Um, and and but they actually found it. A very positive event. There was just this huge, um, [00:20:00] you know, community grief about her early such an early death of such a wonderful woman. And, um and it was a really positive event talking about the meaning she'd had for all of the people there. And there were all these wonderful stories. So that was, um, a really neat event. And, for example, the Lesbian News centre holding its 20th anniversary. Um, here, um, this coming Saturday. Um, and so, um, there's, um, a bunch of events like that. We've [00:20:30] just had our first local history event. Um, and what we did was talk about Miriam talked about why she set up the museum and what was involved in the 52 policy statements and the standards and the the way in which you have to conserve things and the labelling and the the databases. That's the policy folder and a very large folder. Um, and, um, I talked about this sort of, um a really brief overview of the history of women loving women for the last 200 years and the way [00:21:00] in which Maori um, um, sort of acceptance of love between women, um, was completely disrupted by colonisation and and, um, missionaries and church, church denominations and the way in which attitudes changed markedly in the 18 eighties. Um, from an acceptance of passionate friendships and and women, you know, having those kind of intense public relationships to, um, you know, treating [00:21:30] lesbians a more love between women as something that was sick and to be hidden, you know? And that was quite positively received by by the sort of dozen, um, people from different local history societies who came. And so we're hoping to have sort of, um you know, uh, local history events every six months and we'll we'll bring up the results of our research in the sort of inner city in the West areas that we've been funded to do, Um, at the next event, Um, and the next, um, the one we're having in October is a a DVD [00:22:00] night, um, with, um, the BBC movie. The Secret Diaries of Anne Lister, um, which is about a woman in the late 17 hundreds, early 18 hundreds who, um, was had almost a contemporary sense of lesbian identity. She never called it that she didn't have that word. But she said, you know, her attractions were to the fair sex and and only the fair sex. And she had two long term relationships and lots of other, um, sexual relationships with [00:22:30] women. And she wrote it all down in code in a diary, um, 4 million words of it, which has only recently been, um, decoded and published. Um, and so the BBC did this, um, 1. 5 hour movie about it, which will never get on the TV screens here. Um, and we're going to show it on October the 17th. And what are the kind of demographic of people who who visit the Chart Museum. Is it mostly? Is it mostly lesbians? It's mostly women, mostly young people, lots [00:23:00] of researchers, lots of older lesbians. Or it's mostly lesbian, not many researchers at all. Um, it's always disappointing that someone you know, there aren't more lesbians out there doing PhD S on the We can give them lots of topics. Um, the sports one would be a good topic. Um, so and then there's the other group that's just a variety of, um, of a variety of mixed people, [00:23:30] like men and women. Some straight people come because their daughter or, um, sister or somebody is lesbian, and they they want to come and tell them about it. Sometimes they bring a relative with them. Um, a lesbian brought her daughter and grandchildren once from, you know, out, out in greater Auckland. So she took her, You know, it was about an hour away. So came one day. So, yeah, for a whole variety of people. But that's the That's probably [00:24:00] the maybe the 10 to 15% the bulk of people come to events and on like Wednesdays during the week, we we get the odd visitor, but like yourself But some days, um, during the winter, we don't get so many visitors the most time we get most visitors are probably between February and, uh, about June, and then it sort of fades off with the damp weather I'm quite interested in. Um, [00:24:30] I think you talked a little bit about before when you had these intergenerational events or a youth week or something. And you were saying that the anticipation or the excitement of the young people is that what do you think there is? I think there's a big stereotype with, you know, archiving and libraries and museums that it's boring and stuffy and all like, What do you think the anticipation was about? Oh, it was about dialogue, um, with people who'd gone before. And I think there's a big hunger for this among young people. We don't often get those opportunities. And one of the things that came [00:25:00] up was that, um in the really early days in the fifties and sixties, um, when there was just the beginnings of a community, um, everybody used to socialise together. Um, some of the lesbians are now coming out stories on on DVD say that they were part of that. Um And so it used to be the gay men, the lesbians, the trans, uh, transgender people that, um um the prostitutes that everybody you know was was in the same pub, you know, drinking together. And And what used to happen was that, [00:25:30] um that especially, um the gay guys talked about this at the at the, um in the for the youth week event. Um, was that there was actually a sort of informal but very sort of, um, organised, I guess, transferal of knowledge and and and, um, understanding about what it meant to be queer. How to be safe from the older guys to the younger guys. Um, women I, I think didn't do it quite in the same way. But that kind of informal passing down the knowledge [00:26:00] and and the the sort of socialising together has has stopped now because this the community is so big that, you know, gender queer can socialise with gender queer and and, you know, um, lesbians with lesbians and and never see gay guys, you know, and and gay guys did. I never see lesbians, So, um, it's so big now that we're all in our little, uh, sort of identity groups, and we don't socialise together. And so, especially with young people and older people, you know, the older people aren't hitting [00:26:30] the the young bars, you know, and would feel dreadfully out of place if they did. And so the young people don't actually meet, You know, any older lesbians or older gay men or or older Trans people. I think the community is still small enough that they do. But, um, that's how it is now. And so those kind of informal ways of of picking up how to survive survival knowledge and and an awareness that there are others like yourself and and what they've gone through, um, there isn't that kind of structure [00:27:00] for it anymore. So it needs to be organised. And so that's what the hunger for it was. Um and so I'm sort of still thinking about that about what role the Charlotte museum can play. We sort of the trust did talk about that. It's not sort of a core function, you know, Um, we've just got all our work cut out for ourselves. Um, doing the research, conserving, um, the the stuff, getting all the new stuff that people dump on our doorsteps and and they give us boxes off, you know, um and and cataloguing [00:27:30] it and sorting it, That's, you know, we're really still behind in cataloguing. So you know, the community organising is is a sort of second string. But delegate, Well, yes, we can. That's why we employed Jenny so that she could, because I just got exhausted. Well, it sounds like that's yeah, it's a real hub, and it sounds like it's been really successful in achieving things that even weren't really its aims or whatever is that raising the money has always been, you know, [00:28:00] the hard slog our rent last time killed us, it was 2000 a month. And so this it's hard. This is half the size, and it's half the rent. So, um, um, we will be tight in November. October November is always a difficult time, Um, for most groups, because the funding doesn't get very little funding and coming in at that time, particularly for operating costs and and and, um, admin [00:28:30] and rent. So how can people find you if they'd like to come and have a look at all the incredible things on the walls or give you some money for rent and admin and that kind of thing. Well, they can go online and see our website. They can, um, look, get our address off the website and or they could read the TML news. The address is there. They can pick up a brochure from the Women's Bookshop. There's a and there's usually some at [00:29:00] Garnett Station. A few venues around, like Rainbow Youth has our brochures as well, with the address on, and they can come along on Wednesday afternoon between 12 and four or Sunday afternoon between 1. 30 about 3 30. I mean, we'll stay a bit longer if someone turns up at three o'clock, of course, but use or Facebook find us on Facebook. And we, um, our, um, events. We're trying to advertise them more widely. So, for example, we had an article in the, um Central No, the Harbour News. Um, this [00:29:30] issue about the, um um, the local history event. And also it's on stuff. Um, and and we're going to be, um, putting out, like, for example, event finder. Some of the sort of, um, the the Auckland, the Auckland City Council, um, events website. You know, we put our events on that. So we're going to be We're gradually getting our marketing, spreading it around into more and more, um, avenues. So, um, we're hoping to, um, become [00:30:00] more visible as we go on. Um, but, um, mostly, um, if you want to, uh, see N, participate Wednesdays and Sundays in Mount Albert. Suburban Mount Albert is where it is. Anybody can be a friend of the museum. You don't have to be a lesbian to be a friend of the museum, and we have a number of friends who are not lesbian. So, um, I guess that's one thing I'd like to say. And unless people, um, support us financially, it will be too hard [00:30:30] to sustain. We have to be sustainable.

IRN: 202
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_youth.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003870
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089164
TITLE: Rainbow Youth
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Sam Shore; Tommy Hamilton
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 1980s; Auckland; Rainbow Youth; Roger Smith; Sam Shore; Tommy Hamilton; Wai Ho; organisation; support; transcript online; youth
DATE: 16 September 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Thomas Hamilton and Sam Shore talk about the history and aims of Rainbow Youth in Auckland. This podcast was funded by a generous donation from Roger Smith.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Rainbow Youth is a queer youth organisation that has been running for 21 years. It's based in the Auckland region in at 2 81 K Road, where its current drop in centre is. It gives education throughout the greater Auckland area to high schools and universities and organisations. It offers teacher training. It [00:00:30] is run by youth for youth. There is a board of 10 young people under 27. All of the members are under 27 and they vote for that board. It also runs. Some of those members are also volunteers and they facilitate groups. We have nine groups currently. About two of those groups are just about to start and some of those groups are regional and some of those groups are based in the centre and it also is involved in [00:01:00] advocacy giving information to young people. Um and it has three staff members, um, a full time executive director, a full time educator and a part time administrator, and we're the only organisation in the country Currently, that's a queer youth organisation that has a salaried educator that goes into schools and [00:01:30] what sort of young people do you get coming into the centre. Um, it's It's hugely diverse. I mean, yeah, I. I wouldn't say there was a specific type of young people. We we get all sorts of people coming in for all sorts of different reasons. Whether it's to find out educational stuff or just come in and hang out and use, like, you know, we have lots of different resources here, like the Internet and, um, book and, um, movie library. Like a lot of young people just come and hang out because I think it's just a really [00:02:00] cool space. Um, but yeah, I. I mean, it's really varied. You know, I couldn't really say that it was more one than the other, if that makes sense, But maybe mostly queer or yeah, yeah, yeah, Mostly queer. Um, we get a few people coming in who will, uh, possibly aren't queer, but they'll be looking for information. They might be doing a study or, you know, just want to get a bit more savvy to what's going on. Um, but predominantly. Yeah, quite. Yeah. So you both work in the office, and you must [00:02:30] be fairly flexible about people coming in and talking to you when you're working in that kind of thing. That's an interesting topic, isn't it? We have a very unique work in office culture. Sometimes the staff, I can't quite tell if they're actually queer youth, um, youth who are actually part of the centre. Or if they're staff members, they can be just as as, um, quirky and upbeat as our members. Um, [00:03:00] I guess no. Yes, staff. As staff members, we have young people. They just walk right through the front door. If if there's no one in here to talk to, they just come straight into the office and they seek out whomever they please on the day to talk to some. Usually it's not me. Um, I'm the executive director, and so I'm the oldest in the room. I guess that gives me the Almighty, um, wise old person. Look, that's just not cool. They usually ask if Sam, I think [00:03:30] it's the glasses and the grey hair. But if Sam or Priscilla aren't there, they'll ask after them, you know? Oh, where's Sam today? And they'll go, I don't know. I don't know where Sam is today. Usually just because you know, I, I just love how they actually have so much ownership of their space that we are granted the right to work in it. You know, um, that this is literally their space, and And if they need something, they basically come in and tell us so an example would be on [00:04:00] Tuesday, we had probably five people in the office, and they came in saying, Tommy, we want to change the office around. This place is a mess. And I was like, OK, and we gave them jobs, and, um and originally, they they they were a bit upset because they didn't like the poster being up in the window as long as it had been. That's in the window at the moment. So I did explain to them that that would change shortly. And would they like to clean out the back area? And they basically cleaned out the centre and [00:04:30] were really helpful. So you know, I, I guess, as as as, um, employee, we kind of had to facilitate that. Have you done anything to, um make them feel that this is really the place, or, um, do you think it's just happened? Or I think I mean, you know, I'm one of the the newer kind of additions to rain by youth. But from what I have seen, [00:05:00] I mean, I think that there is, you know? I mean, it's such an open space like it's such a cool space because people can just come in here and they can hang out. And there is such a sense of community, and particularly when you see new people coming in and the other members that are already here are always welcoming and always talk. And I think I think it's more than anything else. I get the feeling that it's it's the young people that that give the other, you know, young people, that sense of ownership and that sense of community and really push that it is this [00:05:30] space, which is really cool. And how did you come to be working here? Um, have you always done community work? I've done a little bit out of the past, Um, but pretty much I saw advertising for a position, and I harassed Tommy mercilessly. Works quite well. And have you always done, um, youth work or queer queer work? Or, um, who did you harass [00:06:00] for a job and the board? Um Actually, if if you ever go for a job at Rainbow Youth, I'll tell you what. Going and meeting the board when you're over 27 is really kind of You have to be quite staunch. You know, the board are, um uh, I. I got the job. Um, I applied, and I was convinced by friends and peers in the community. I did a lot of work in communities in the queer community with trans youth. Um, and [00:06:30] I've worked with trans youth for years and years and years, which involves queer youth work as well. Um, but it's all voluntary. I've never had a paid job, so it was quite a weird experience to get paid to do this sort of work. Um, it's a real privilege, you know, You sort of think Wow, I've got the greatest job in the universe. Um, and because it's such a powerful environment, um, and and I, I applied for the job, and, you know, I got it. Thankfully, um, the board hired me through through the regular [00:07:00] process. You go through employment, you don't have to do, there's no there's no hazing or any kind of you don't have to dress in chicken suits or anything like that. You just kind of apply for a job like normal, and you get it. Um, and and yes, I was part of the process of employing somebody like Sam, Um, and and it's really hard to find people that really understand the community so well, and I think that's what's happened with, um, Rain with Rainbow Youth. We work really hard to ensure that the culture of the organisation [00:07:30] isn't run by staff. It's run by the members, and that's a really we're a human service. So we take every single approach in a human way, so sometimes our process can be really kind of jumbled looking or chaotic. But it means that we're doing things that young people want to do. Anything in particular that you do that would be really different from other places that are staff run and staff focused rather than community or membership focused. Yeah, the [00:08:00] way that the groups run, Um, we we don't I don't have a lot. The staff don't have a lot to do. Like the Facebook page, for instance, is run by facilitators and is run by by volunteers. And so the facilitators are the young people. They're not yourselves. Yeah, The facilitators are all the young people, and the board is all under 27. The whole model is And I think this has been studied in the past because it has been the organisation has been around for 21 years. Um, and every single project [00:08:30] goes to the members, so members can be involved on any level they want. Um, and the strategizing of the organisation is all comes from, um, feedback from the board. That is feedback from the groups. So and research we do is aimed at young people and part of our values and the mission and vision of the organisation is, um what what used to be called youth participation but we just say is youth perspective as youth point of view is young. That's young people doing [00:09:00] stuff, to be blunt. Yeah. Why do you think Rainbow youth is important? Oh, I. I mean, there are so many reasons. It's important. I'm educating, you know? I mean, not just young people. I mean educating everyone. I think that so even with law reform and civil unions, there's, you know, there's still a need and Yeah, hugely. I mean, particularly in small town New Zealand. [00:09:30] I mean, we have a lot of young people, right in that, uh, you know, not from Auckland or Wellington or not from places where I guess education or support, as accessible as it is in the main centres. And, you know, for them to be able to have a place that they that they see that they can go to where they can get this. I mean, it's so important. Um, you know, there is a lot of homophobia out there still, and there is a lot of work that we have to do. Um, and also, I mean, providing a safe [00:10:00] space and a space for I think one of the most important things is peer support. So a place for young people to come together, meet other young people that they can share experiences with and they can relate to. You know, that's that's something that I don't think happens in schools as much. And in other, you know, I. I think this is quite unique. Yeah, so yeah, quite an amazing thing. Do you know how it all got started? How does it become I? I suppose [00:10:30] it started small. And now it's, you know, you've got three paid staff, three salaried staff and actual kind of premises that are, uh, solid and won't go away. We pray, um, to the universe. So, um, as solid as any other community group. Yes, Um, in these times of hard to find money, Um, the way it started was a group called Auckland Lesbian and Gay Youth called Algie. Oh, lovely. [00:11:00] Nice. Kind of. I think it was quite edgy, you know, for its time, Um, and Algie was from the university crowd, so it's kind of probably what What is today? Uniq, Um, and algae formed just after I think it was 85 86 or something like that. Um And then in 89 they changed the name and [00:11:30] to to to give it more of a I think they were looking at youth issues in general, and that started to be rainbow youth. Then Rainbow Youth started employing a part-time youth coordinator, and it went through a number of phases where there was a house. There used to be a rainbow youth house because big issues back then were homelessness. Not that they're not now, But there was funding for things like homelessness, suicide, and, um, the house ended up not working out. Um, lots of people [00:12:00] in over the past 21 years have done a lot for rainbow Youth to get where it is today in the community. Um and yeah. So I think it was 1989. It changed to Rainbow Youth, and they actually got became an incorporated society and got a Constitution and all that jazz. What would be some of the funnest parts about your job? My job? Um, the funnest parts are playing Wii. Um, I was reminiscing the other day. [00:12:30] We is the, you know, the computer game, the TV game. Just to clarify, um, I'm very competitive, so sometimes I have, um if if a bunch of people come in that aren't so comfortable, you know, a good game of Wii will get them going, like, good game, competitive tennis or bowling. Um, and I remember when I first started, one of the members left because they were moving house. They left the guitar hero here, so I remember I used to hide on the beanbags behind the couch and play [00:13:00] guitar hero after dark when no one else was in here. Um, that's I'm just kidding. Um, I was, you know, it's interacting with young people is my favourite thing. It doesn't matter what I'm doing. Um, sometimes occasionally I'll turn up at a group. Um, you know, and, you know, share some information, give them. You know, II. I don't turn up at groups often, but it's them coming in and saying things like, Tommy, I've [00:13:30] I've, you know, got a a plus on my assignment. And it's a young person who, when I first met them, were shrivelled up like a little pebble and wouldn't even talk, you know? And they'd sit on a couch and I'd be talking at them for about 20 minutes. And now they come running in and tell me that they've got an A plus and an assignment and and that they're getting on with their lives and they're really they're really amazing people. And they just needed that moment to say to somebody, Hey, you know, what do I do? Um, and [00:14:00] another part of it, I really like is getting out into the community and getting what organisations outside of the queer organisation sector um, to understand what the hell was happening for us and to get us in track, like involved with Youth Line Youth town. That stuff is really exciting for me getting young people who aren't queer, understanding what it is. And it's no different to them. You know, um, that's kind of exciting. And also the diversity of [00:14:30] we have a culture here which is so diverse and so interesting. Um, we have problems like everyone else in gathering that information and gathering that diverse structure, but I think we have a real commitment to building that. So it's sustainable and and so that we continue the the nature of a diverse culture in here. Apart from funding, what would be some of the big challenges kind of facing. We're facing [00:15:00] Rainbow youth. But I think also kind of the queer youth groups and sectors and that kind of thing, um, homophobia in schools, safety in schools. It's a huge challenge. Just, um, getting schools to recognise that homophobia is a form of bullying, that it is prevalent, and it is affecting students to the point where they're harming themselves. Self-harm suicide, drug abuse, alcohol abuse, [00:15:30] um, homelessness, uh, that that it is, you know, and it's so subtle making education around sexuality and gender identity compulsory in schools. Um, if if we didn't have to teach it that education, if all we were doing was giving resources to schools or getting involved on subcommittees in Parliament that you know, getting other queer youth organisations involved in subcommittees in Parliament to make sure that that was part of the health curriculum, that [00:16:00] that was actually a behaviour that was not just about sexuality and not just about gender identity or about sex and how people have sex, which is actually talking about relationships and how people relate to each other. You know, if that became part of the curriculum that would make homophobia just would disappear. You know, it would be easier for kids to go to counsellors and say, Hey, someone's being a bully and throwing pies at me as one example, or [00:16:30] I have to leave the school because somebody's I'm in a relationship with someone, and the parents are making me me are saying we can't have that relationship so I don't get my education that's affecting a whole person's life, not just the school. Um, so recognising our young people's needs in those schools is a key element of that. And one of those things is that that being part of the curriculum of sexuality and generating identity being part of that curriculum, um [00:17:00] uh, issues around young people and homelessness still occur. Um, we need and and drug and alcohol use so prevalent in our community at such a young age, we need the government to help visibility around our community. We need young people being seen as same sex attracted people or trans youth being seen as the identity they prefer. You know, [00:17:30] um, and we need government support to help achieve that. We are a minority within the community. And I think sometimes we've been it's been sort of, um, shelved a little bit. Um, statistics research is really important. We need research on our youth and that research needs to be aimed at them for them, not about them. Um, and, uh, we need, um we need a national body for the queer youth in general. [00:18:00] Um, queer youth ourselves have been talking about it. Uh, Rainbow youth have done some research which we're finalising at the moment. The recommendations for to to begin that process. But we need a queer youth network that's relevant to the those young people now, Um and, uh, yeah, basically, I. I hope that in five years time we have regular funding from people like Ministry of Youth Development and Ministry of Social Development. Ministry of Social Development to actually get some of these [00:18:30] things up and running, um, and that we don't have to scrimp and save just to be able to get our educator into schools. That there's educators in all our youth groups that there's a position available every region for sexuality and gender identity educator, because it is compulsory in schools to have that topic. Um, so it's hard to say what the other issues are outside of funding because so many of these issues require funding. But we we're working in many ways, we're [00:19:00] being very creative to combat these issues. Um, the campaign, which looks at healthy relationships, strength based approaches, we're following the youth strategy, Um, and including youth voices in as many projects as we can that are that are from the broader community. Um, we have a GL BT drug and alcohol network, uh, working group in Auckland. Um, that has that is, you know, pulling together resources between the organisations, um, to talk about these issues [00:19:30] raise awareness of these issues in the community. But we can only do so much until, you know, until it starts to become the need for a campaign. So what are some fun parts about your job, Sam? Um, you also hide hide behind the beanbags in the couch and play guitar hero. No, I haven't played Guitar hero yet. Um oh, lots of like, I think, like, to me, like being able to, like, chat and hang out with, like, young people makes me feel younger. Um, no, it's [00:20:00] really cool. Like it doesn't make you feel older. I feel that happens to me. And I'm like, What? What does that word mean? We were out here the other day, like just talking. I mean, you get to have these amazing conversations, which is just really cool, and you get to see people come out of their shell, you know, as they get to know you. And as they get more comfortable within the centre, and it's so awesome. That's so cool. Um, and I really enjoy in a really sick kind of way. Getting to, like, do all the stats and stuff like I know, I [00:20:30] know it's You should see someone about that. Yeah, I know. But like, you know, sort of like I really get this weird kick from being able to help put together like resources and look at making rainbow use sustainable. And, you know, like there's so many awesome things that are happening here and being able to be part of that and seeing that we're putting or implementing these processes that will last, you know, like I get very excited. Um, and also, I mean, like, I occasionally get to go out, um, [00:21:00] with Priscilla to be involved in her education sessions. And they're amazing, like, That's so cool. And it's so, so much fun to be in like a room full of, you know, like 14 15 year olds and watch this collective light bulb go off in their heads. You know, like you can you can see it like in this group of people you know, when they realise you know what homophobia is or what's going on, or you know that how they can make a change and that they need to. And that's so awesome. Yeah, [00:21:30] So there's a lot of cool things about being here you mentioned. Or someone mentioned, Um, they are the nine groups that run. Yeah, I can. The groups are ID for over eighteens, and that's in the Centre GQ for under Eighteens. And that's based in the Centre and Gender IQ, which is a gender identity group. Those three groups that are based in the centre tend to be centralised tend to have, um, you know, lots of people from the different [00:22:00] regional groups meeting as well. They come to these these groups. So so the regional groups include out and about, which is in East Auckland out West, which is in West Auckland, and Queer for Shore, which is in the North Shore. And then we have activity groups which are like Queer Nation, which is a bunch of people that meet and watch animation That's queer, and they'll be going to, um, Armageddon this year and joining youth line at the table to, you know, so they're involved in the outside community as well. It's one way we get [00:22:30] our word out. The other group is go active, which is kind of like basically, the ID group wanted to do something outside of their support group meeting because activities in A in a support group don't really match. So they do things like go laser tag, bow temp and bowling I all sorts of picnics and all sorts of weird stuff, but they they do that in different times. You know, Um and then, uh, another group would be a women's focus group, [00:23:00] which they haven't figured out their their name yet. Um, but the whole idea there was that some of some, some at times, like the gender, sort of the the gender of people turning up to groups can fluctuate so it can never flow between male identified and female identified. And, um, at 1. 1 ID, the older over 18 group was becoming very male dominated. So we thought, well, to help [00:23:30] create a bit of safety and make you know the younger women feel comfortable about coming back into the centre. We will have a girl focus group, so at times we can just when that happens, it doesn't sort of we don't lose that sort of the female energy from the organisation, So that's exciting. Um, and I think that's all of the groups. Um, but groups can appear out of the blue. Um, groups are devised by young people. We don't think of them. The the [00:24:00] young people say what they want and they develop the group and they have posters. They have a web, they have their Facebook page. Every group has a Facebook group on it, and they have members who join that. So there's this whole social media sort of realm to the groups as well as the actual live group. And then it's all been put on to curious dot org dot NZ, which is the national hub for queer youth website. Um, and and then it gets, you know, they've got post, you know, their [00:24:30] posters and they just liaise with me or the facilitators of the groups telling me what they want to do and what they need. Um, and the groups that meet regionally tend to meet in cafes, so they tend to be smaller and just conversational based. So that's why we maintain lots of, you know, the groups that meet at the centre there can be up to 30 to 40 people attend that group, um, in in the larger groups and some of the members will attend three or four groups. So they're busy. [00:25:00] They have a busy social schedule so that, you know, there's a lot of communication required, very vibrant part of the organisation and kind of, um, I guess queer communities are really, really diverse. And sometimes there can be tensions, I guess, between gay men and and lesbian women or sis people, sis, queer people and trans people. How are some of the ways, or are those tensions ever apparent with the young people here? And or is it is it just an [00:25:30] older person thing? And if there are, how how are those tensions dealt with? Or do you see that at all? Or we We see that in the sense that people are coming to our centre who are younger, and they might not have explored or understood any of those issues they may not identify as lesbian or gay, they might be bisexual. They might have questions around their religious beliefs. All these things get discussed within the groups, and you'll hear them having vibrant, energetic [00:26:00] debates out here and you'll hear the trans like for trans youth, for instance who are involved in the wider groups. Um, they'll tell other young people that they're being transphobic and, um, the the discussions between the lesbian and gay male cultures. They'll, you know, you'll hear sort of statements like, You know, that are putting down, say, the young gay males putting down lesbians because it's kind of a you know, something that happens. And the other younger [00:26:30] women will be like, you know, shut up. That's you know, you just that's not cool and and we don't we We don't let young people if we're in the office at times, Um, we don't let young people come in here flouting about how they've been out the night before and got really wasted or making. Uh, if they say something offensive and nobody else is saying anything, we stand up and say, you know, hey, you know, that's kind of offensive, not in a bullish way, not in a mean way. But we're just really clear about when you you talk with respect in the space and that's all about, So [00:27:00] the way we maintain that is this space here. Everyone must respect each other. Um, any group time, everyone must respect each other. If there's a problem and somebody's being homophobic and say a facilitator can't deal with it or the group can't deal with it themselves, they can come to me and they'll can come to a staff member. Um, and then we will say to that person in a really nice way, take them away from the group and say, Hey, look, what you're saying isn't really nice and it might make them feel sad. And usually that's fine. Yeah, um, the other issue that can [00:27:30] come up, though that's probably more of a problem is people in relationships within the groups. So, you know, um, our facilitators are trained to to, uh, deal with that. Yeah. And for the large part, there seems to be a culture where they'll just kind of converse. And that's where a lot of the understanding comes from. Yeah, and I mean, I guess sort of linked into that in the previous question. I mean, there are events and things that happen sometimes. Like we had No, [00:28:00] not that long ago. Um, the intergenerational forum at the Charlotte Museum. Um, which was so awesome because it wasn't just that you know, there were these two sort of parallel age groups, but there was all these different, you know, people, you know, the lesbians and gay guys and Trans and all these people coming together for one purpose instead of, you know, splitting up into little groups. But everyone was talking, Everyone was sharing their ideas and everyone was feeding into this one thing. And it was so cool because everyone brought a different [00:28:30] strength and a different idea. And it was such a great day. And so there are things like that that happen where people do get to come together and they do get exposure to one another's thoughts and opinions, you know? And I think, you know, you get to sort of see the strength that comes out of that. So there's really cool things like that that happen as well. Yeah. What were some of the big things that came out of that that I guess younger people could take away or older people could have taken away from that space that shared space. I think that there was probably [00:29:00] one of the things that came out was the need to communicate and talk. I think that. That's probably something that's personally I believe there's a age or across diverse kind of. I think both, I think. I mean, it was really highlighted because it was an intergenerational thing. It was really highlighted, you know, between age. But I think that it applies to sort of all areas that you know, that need to communicate. Um, you know, where we've come from, you know, our history, um, to communicate, you know, how we feel and how we're [00:29:30] affected as we travel through to each other, because I think sometimes we forget that, you know, um, within our community. And that was really awesome to sort of see. And I think it was a bit of a a reminder, you know, that that we are all in it together and it's really cool what we can achieve together, because there's sometimes a bit of a stereotype or an assumption that young people are, you know, they just want to party, and they're not really interested in history or they're not interested in the stories of older people. Is that Is that something that is, you [00:30:00] know, Did you see that or young people really, really interested and just haven't had a whole lot of opportunities to have yarns or that that that was one of the things that came up and was talked about. And I mean, I think that, you know, there is that generational thing of of young people, maybe potentially not seeking it as much. But then there was also highlighted the fact that I think that that information wasn't passed down in the same way that it might have been by the generation before. You know, there wasn't that emphasis [00:30:30] to really talk about it and to go out. And, you know, particularly things like something that came up was with, um HIV and a I DS that, you know, when that first emerged and the people that it really hit hard, they would go out into the clubs and they would tell the young people, you know, make sure that, you know, you're you know, And it was, but it was really verbal and it was really there, and it was really in your face and that's that sort of waned a bit. We've become quite sort of poster and media orientated now, but you lose that that effect of actually having someone walk up and be like, make sure that, you know, this is [00:31:00] really important. Um and so I think it was just that sort of, I don't know, I guess a verbal kind of, I don't know. The language kind of disintegrated a bit, but it's coming back. I think I think there is an awareness that it needs to be there. And I think from an older person's perspective, I noticed that the older people kind of didn't realise that the younger people still had the same issues and it was a real check in for them. Um, many of those people [00:31:30] that were at the intergenerational forum came back to the centre, and they've started integrating into the centre like many people in the community felt that rainbow youth was just a youth orientated space and us getting reaching out to those wider communities has helped them to understand what we actually do in here. Yes, this is their space, but they are really desperate to interact with everyone. So, at the intergenerational forum, I saw one of our younger members, for instance, caught up with, you know, a very [00:32:00] strong, very politically motivated member of our community and absolutely besotted in in wanting to gather the knowledge from them, which is so powerful, Um, and I was really amazed to see that and I you know, And I thought, Oh, this is something we must nurture for young people. Like as an organisation, we must focus on building the gap building bridges between [00:32:30] the age, age, gaps. And for instance, now we've got a project which we're doing with a couple of our members who are trans so that they're doing, um, pop sort of videos from people within the trans community so that, you know, that gives them a chance to interact and work with older people in the trans community. You know, um, these sorts of things I think have come from us doing that project, um and and has been. And it's been a leading example. [00:33:00] And it that's where sometimes I also think it highlighted that in our community we don't support organisations that are building our his historical information. So the Charlotte found Charlotte Museum, for instance, is not supported enough. And um and I think that was another element where the young people felt that they could be involved in something like that. So it's very fascinating to see all that come to fruition, and I think the outcome will be [00:33:30] it will be really interesting. The great thing will be that at the next big day out, all our young people will go past going, Oh, look, there's a Charlotte museum and they'll know what that is. That's that is a really positive outcome. So if I am a person who's not just a young, queer person, how how would I find you? Rainbow Youth? Would I just drop in or Well, I mean, we have all sorts of, I mean different ways. I mean, you know, the the Internet, a lot of people [00:34:00] find us. There's a lot of, I think, word of mouth, you know, a lot of people, I think, particularly after dancing with the stars. People saw Rainbow Youth and it became, you know, sort of nationally known. And so I think you know that name is out there now and it's it's really floating around. Um, I mean, we have resources that are out there as well, um, in schools for young people to use, But I think you know, predominantly, you know, I think most people just Google, you know? And I mean, we're on the internet. We've got an awesome website with heaps of information. [00:34:30] And that's how a lot of people access us. Or you can just drop in. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, yeah, that's what the drop in centre is all about, you know? And we do have a lot of people that walk past and just come in and, you know, be like, Oh, I need some information on this, or I just want to hang out or I need some help with my CV, you know, And some office hours Monday to Friday or yeah, um, we're open from 10 till six usually. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you very much. Both of you for having a yarn about rainbow [00:35:00] youth to us.

IRN: 200
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/lesbian_programme.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003871
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089165
TITLE: Lesbian Programme
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Prue Hyman
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 1980s; Alison Laurie; Armstrong and Arthur Charitable Trust for Lesbians; Linda Evans; Maxine Gunderson; Prue Hyman; QUILTED BANANAS (Wellington Access Radio); Robin Shave; Wellington; lesbian; media; radio; transcript online
DATE: 24 September 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Prue Hyman talks about the Lesbian Programme which has been broadcasting since the mid-1980's on Access Radio in Wellington.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So I'm here with Prue Hyman who has stuff to do with lesbian radio. Did you help start it, or how did you get involved in it? Uh, I didn't really help start it. Although I did the occasional programme from pretty early on. Um, it's been going a really long time. And, um, I got I did. Alison Laurie and Linda Evans were two of the founding group, and for a while they did the whole thing themselves for quite a number of years, which is a major commitment. And then if they went off overseas or anything, [00:00:30] I used to do the odd programme to fill in for them. And occasionally I was interviewed on it as well myself and, uh then it got to the point quite, very sensibly and that it was too much for them to do it on their own anymore, and they'd had done their time. And then there've been a lot of different collectives since then. And, um, a group of larger numbers have always been involved after that. But there's always been one major coordinator person, and there have been several of those since Alison and Linda. But I'm the last and I've been going as a coordinator. I was [00:01:00] trying to work out. I can't remember exactly when I started, but nearly 10 years anyway, I've been coordinating it. Um, that's probably an exaggeration. Maybe it's seven, but anyway, it's quite a long time. The person before me was Bronwyn Dean, who sadly died about three years ago. She still was an occasional broadcaster right up till till her death. But she was the one that persuaded me to take over from her. I think think we were partners at the time or we just stopped being partners, but she just had enough of being the main coordinator. And so, uh, I took over, and I seem to be landed. [00:01:30] Ever since I I've been making noises in the last year or two that, you know, I'm, uh, 67 now, and I mean, I'm still very energetic and quite happy doing it, but one's aware that you're broadcasting to hoping to broadcast to a huge range of lesbians and a lot younger than me, and that maybe it was time for one of the younger ones to take over. But nobody seems keen at the moment. I've got some people who do some of the tasks which helps a lot. When did um, Alison, Laurie and Linda even start lesbian? You asked me that, and I never [00:02:00] I never got around to looking it up. We we were lesbian. Radio started and it wasn't just them. Actually, at the very start, there was a group of several and I think people like Robin Shave, Maxine Gunderson, and Tiggy and Stone were all involved too. But they weren't involved for as long, and and it was Linda and Allison that did the long stint. They were almost from the start of access radio in Wellington, which is coming up for about 30 years. Um and, uh, it it it's, um so it's something like that. It was very [00:02:30] early on, um, in in late seventies, early eighties. And, um uh, when access radio started, it was actually. And when lesbian radio started, it was actually an offshoot of the women's zone programme. There was a woman's own programme which ran weekly, and it was given over to lesbians for one out of four weeks or something like that, with quite a struggle to get that in the usual sort of a way that happens with lesbian organisations. And um, that was OK for a while. And [00:03:00] then this group of people thought, Heck, we can manage our own programme and go every week, not once every four weeks. So that was after about probably a year or so of um, being part of the women's own programme. We started on our own and of course, women's own is long gone and lesbian radio has broadcast week in week out without fail, usually going live, which is quite unusual. Access radio. Only a small proportion of the programmes go live rather than prerecording, particularly weekend ones. Um uh, we've [00:03:30] gone every week ever since and I think we've only gone dark. I think maybe once somebody didn't turn up and a few times their transmitter has been down. But basically we've gone every week since then, which is a pretty big achievement, it seems to me, and it's an hour, of course, and it's on Sundays from 10 till 11 and we go live and you have to remember all sorts of things. Like this week. I've reminded the people that are on that the clocks go back, go forward an hour, so they've got to get there an hour earlier. It's all sorts of things you have to remember with with radio. [00:04:00] So there we go. So it was kind of late seventies, early eighties, around around the what was the climate like then? And was the climate then? Was that the need or the Was that the drive to set up lesbian radio, or was it just a group of lesbians like, Oh, I think the drive was very political and awareness. And, um, and activism. Um, I think you know the whole climate around that time with, um, um, homosexual law reform and, uh, human rights. And, you know, um, and [00:04:30] lesbian political action had been going for a while with, um, things like, uh um the magazine Circle, which had been going since the early seventies, but, uh, 73. I think that started. But of course, it wasn't access radio community radio then, but, um, yeah, so it was. It was heavily an activism thing, but al and also an outreach thing, Um, people who were questioning their coming out. It was another source apart from coming out groups where before you declare [00:05:00] yourself, you can listen and and, um and and see what lesbians are doing and what they're saying. And they're not particularly scary. But they are activists, and a lot of a lot of lesbians then were feminist as well, which some still are not all. And so there was all that going on, and I think from the beginning that was a main motivation. But plus, of course, just publicising all the events that were on in Wellington. We still do that. There's probably less need for us to do that anymore in the sense that, um, of course, there's the websites. Ellen runs [00:05:30] the website. She's also a member of our collective, and there's lots and lots of email groups and so on and so forth. So there's lots of ways and, uh, social networking and Twitter and Facebook and everything. There are lots of ways you can find out what's going on, and I tend to like to do a programme when I'm on. That's very full of of, um, real action of interviews and and politics and, uh, some music. I haven't mentioned music yet. I'll come back to that, um so I don't spend very long on the notices. I tend to do the things that are very urgent, [00:06:00] that are coming up the next week or two and the things that go on every week. I say go to wellington dot lisby do and you can find all those there, you know, because it's a waste of time duplicating that. So, um, but we have a very varied sort of content. Everybody does the notices either to greater or lesser extent, everybody plays some music. Um, and, uh, apart from that, it's entirely up to the individual presenters as to, um, what sort of range of things they cover amongst [00:06:30] lesbian stuff. And, um um, yeah, so and I think that's very healthy. You know, we try and have a big range of presenters who will appeal to different bits of the community. We don't do terribly well about, um, the range of ethnicity. We're mostly pakeha. We've had some, um, Asian presenters and Maori presenters in Pacific, but not very many. And, um, busy with other things as well. It's very reasonable, and we try and get a range of ages, and we try [00:07:00] and get a range of interests, um, in lesbian, different lesbian activities so, and we're always open to new presenters. I'm always keen to get them. They can always contact me. And there's stuff about that on the website. Um, anyone listening to this, who's who's keen? Get in touch. We've had some quite new presenters lately. There's a a lesbian feminist, queer book group, and two of their people are now on board as techies because that's the other big thing. We also have to run the technical side ourselves. Now. We didn't used to do that. Access [00:07:30] used to provide a technician, and, um, and then you could choose whether you did or didn't, um, provide a technician yourself. And, um, and we went on having it provided because for such a range of presenters, it's and you only get a turn every eight or weeks or something. It's quite hard to remember exactly everything on the exactly, and it's quite hard to do both, particularly the people that go on their own. If there's two of you, it's not quite difficult. So we preferred to have a a techie [00:08:00] provided, and we paid a little bit extra in order to do that. Not much, Um, because you have to pay a feta to be on air. And, um then, um suddenly we discovered we were the only programme left for the techie provider. And I didn't realise. And they said this your time is numbered. We were very lucky for a while. Um, a woman called, um, who was part of the volunteer techie things for access generally was [00:08:30] also sort of very lesbian friendly. Um, I'm not sure whether she identified but the lesbian, and she was happy to become our our techie and used to come in every week, which was a heck of a commitment. And then she was going away and another lesbian called Marilyn, who was, um, who was also a volunteer for access. Uh, was prepared to do most weeks. And she did it for a while and also trained up some others. Some of our own presenters trained a little bit to do it, and we've found new. We started appealing for techies as well. [00:09:00] And now I've got a roster which has something like 11 or 12 lots of presenters, um, either in individuals or peers, um, fewer in, uh, taking time out and may come back and so on and so forth. But it's about that many. And we've got 66 tickets now on our roster who take turns. So we're we're not too badly off, but we're always willing to have more and people come and go for good reasons. We've had a lot of babies recently that used not to be the beginnings of lesbian radio. That wasn't a common reason to be going disappearing. But [00:09:30] it is now, and, um, and one or two have died, sadly. And, um so people come and go and others have things happen in their lives that they don't want to do it anymore or get fed up with it. And that's fair enough. But But we're very vibrant. We go, we go every week, as I say, and, um, we go live 10 to 11 on Sundays, even on over the Christmas period when access is shut, because we've got our gadgets to get in and there we go And, um, that's basically the way it works. You said that when lesbian radio [00:10:00] got a week out of four, was that right? From woman's zone? Um, that was kind of difficult. Was there controversy around there being lesbian radio Or was it? I don't think I don't want that. They didn't want to give up one of the weeks. I don't think it's been that much of a problem. Um, Alison would who was around, you know, involved in that at the time, and Linda would would know more about it. I wasn't involved in the politics around that. I think it took a bit of getting it as always, you know, from the Lavender Menace they used to more [00:10:30] of an American expression, but, you know, um, fighting for your space for this stuff. But, um I know I think it was OK, But then, you know, when we got the confidence that we could do it every week, that was that was even better. And, uh, there we go and I think lesbian politics, you know. So I mean, feminist politics is still alive, but an awful lot of organisations have gone. And I mean, a lot of lesbian organisations have gone too with the um I think the big thing about lesbian radio is that you get the discussion and the interviews and that you can't get in any of the the [00:11:00] other media where you can get a bit of discussion on Facebook or whatever, but but you get that live, whereas we haven't got, for example, a Wellington lesbian newsletter anymore. We've had lots of them over the years. There's one in Auckland. There aren't many around where you can get those sorts of things. So, uh, that's its main function, as far as I'm concerned is for for for the politics and for outreach, to new lesbians and lesbians coming to Wellington for the first time, all that sort of thing. And of course, now it's beyond, because you can now listen to it on the Web. Any [00:11:30] time. That's only developed the last two or three years where, UM, access, uh, have put the podcast up on the Web and it stays up for. It goes up a few days after, and it stays up for about five or six weeks. They have five or six up at a time, so you can listen to those and beyond that, those podcasts and in the old days we used to take the programme are all available practically the whole lot. I think there are a few missing, but most of them have gone to the Lisbon and Gay Archives. New Zealand. So And there's a, um, a project [00:12:00] on at the moment that I think has just got funding from the Arthur Armstrong Trust and Trust. And I should say a bit more about them in a moment, Um, where some of them are going to be put into better form. The old tapes are going which don't last forever are going to be put on to a better electronic form. So, um, there'll be a lot of the programmes will be there for posterity and future researchers, future lesbians to to listen to which, which will reflect the changing mores of lesbian society, which in community culture, which is great. Um, [00:12:30] I should pay a tribute at this point to the Armstrong and a charitable trust for lesbians who, uh, who fund us. Um, they've also funded this research project this project to say, to put more programmes on in a better electronic form, but they fund us every week. We pay something like, um, just under $50 a week as our access fee, and, um, and they fund that basic fee and a small annual fee. Um, in the old days, it was the dude's dances. Um, I think when when it first began, there wasn't [00:13:00] a fee. But once the fee came in, it, um you have enough. It takes enough energy to do the programme and and the the preparation for it without having to do all the fundraising. So our group is very grateful that we don't have to fundraise the whole of that ourselves. We usually have one fundraising thing at least a year, and I think we're we're doing a raffle at the next Pines dance, and, um, sometimes we raise a little bit of the atmosphere thing or something like that. But we don't have to do most of the fundraising ourselves, which is terrific. What [00:13:30] have been some of your, I guess Favourite, um, discussions or interviews? Oh, gosh, it's really difficult. Um, I love, you know, publicising what's about to happen. So things like, Oh, the film festivals each year we always give that a big plug lesbian gay film festival with them and talk to the, uh, the people who've been choosing the lesbian films for that. I like it when we, uh, publicise. We're in the middle of publicising the Asia Pacific Out games for next March [00:14:00] and the games, the conference, the culture, all that sort of thing. I think it's really good when you can give that a lot of ear plug, and but, um, but also some of the more political stuff we've done interviews with people overseas sometimes don't do an awful lot live. But we've got a new, very dynamic presenter of, um, US Origins. Um, who's a singer songwriter called Paula? And, um, she's been in festivals and things in in the States before here, and she's got Nicaraguan background as well. And she [00:14:30] she's done one or two things with America Live and you can do it. But it's a little expensive, but we used to. If people were travelled overseas, they'd often do interviews and bring them back. Um, with all sorts of people, Um, there's been political figures overseas. Those are always good and all the just something. The discussions in New Zealand when we've got stuff around Civil Union Bill and and you know and and we tend to do the the more vibrant arguments around that I mean, everybody sort of assumes that we have to lesbian equal rights means you want marriage first. Civil Union second. [00:15:00] But there's quite a a lot of lesbian feminists who think, Why do we want to join? Um, an institution with, you know, with which feminists have critiqued for years, so reflecting all those bits of politics, not selling a line. But every in every presenter is allowed to give their own views, but also try and I'd like to interview people who have different views. Um, we have to be careful with national politics, um, before immediately before elections and things like that, you're not allowed, you know, there are access rules, and you're there [00:15:30] are also rules about, you know, um, defamation of things. So you've got to take care like any other broadcaster, even though you're not a professional. But certainly I think the more controversy and and, you know, real discussion, you get going the better. Um, but other people will just do, you know, more social things, and, um and that's fine, too. Uh, as Esme is one of our long standing presenters, and she often does interviews like out in the square with all sorts of people that are that are doing their own stores there [00:16:00] and that's that's always nice. So everybody, everybody differs a bit about what they want to do, But, uh, but they're all, um I think I think people, if they listen to long ranges of programmes, they'd find some really interesting things. I think my favourite ever programme was for me was that I did myself was before I was ever even a coordinator. I'm Jewish by origin. I don't regard myself as religiously Jewish, but I'm Jewish culture and history and so on. And, um, Tilly Lloyd, who runs Unity Shop um and, um she [00:16:30] had a bit of involvement with the programme, Not a great deal, but, uh, she persuaded me that I to to, um to do a programme about being, um Jewish in the lesbian and feminist communities and lesbian and feminist in the Jewish communities and what that was like and I had great fun doing that programme. And I also interviewed, uh, did an interview with the group in Auckland who are, um, who were Jewish feminists, and a large number of them were lesbians who were involved [00:17:00] with fighting for Maori sovereignty and talking about links between being outsider groups. You know, if you like, and they had a big push. That was that all. That was very interesting stuff. So there's been a lot of a lot of good memories from doing the doing. The lesbian programme has the I. I'd say readership, but I guess you don't really read. Has it changed much over the years? Or is it hard to say, Well, one of the sad things is that it's very hard to know who's listening. Um, and [00:17:30] you know, sometimes you're scared that you're only talking to yourself and the other presenters, most of whom you know, are interested in listening. Um, Chris Walsh is a terrific another terrific, um, stalwart of the programme. She's not on at the moment. She's well known for her activism over breast cancer, and she she and her partner both have had breast cancer, and she does. She got too busy with all that to stay on the programme for, but she's been on for many years, and when she did this, I'm not sure whether it was part of a degree. But she certainly did do a degree and and she also did this research [00:18:00] project. She did a research project on Alison ship at one stage and and, um quite and you know, that was interesting and helpful for knowing what people wanted. And, um but that's quite a long way back now. These days, it's very hard to know. Um, one thing you can look at is the number of hits on the website for not the and it's much easier now that you can do it. Other day. I'm sure we've lost some listeners who do it on the Web instead, which is absolutely fine. And but we've gained and at one point last year we were the second highest access radio [00:18:30] programme for a number of hits to to Wellington Community, which was the broadest. And I thought that was absolutely terrific and there were hits from all over the world from Canada, Japan, Britain, states all over as well as a lot of New Zealand ones. And we hope that they're all genuine hits are not pervs. Certainly I think most of them were probably are are genuine and that was exciting, but and you get you get informal feedback. You know, when you've been on yourself, somebody will say, Oh, I heard that this particular bit was good. And but unless we do another [00:19:00] solid piece of research it it's very hard to know. But I think there is a real need for it, particularly given as I say, that we don't have much else for discussing things we have. We have the other ways of finding out what's going on, but I think it. I hope there's still a need Britain. And I hope is, is that, uh we'll go on finding people that want to do it and that the trust will go on funding it. Bronwyn, who I mentioned before who was a previous coordinator, um, left quite a lot of money to the art Armstrong and Arthur Trust, um, [00:19:30] not conditional on the radio, but certainly made clear that the radio was one of the big, big things that was in her heart. And she and it was that that they've earmarked that interest from that bit to do this project of putting more programmes, um, electronically and so hopefully the As long as we we're going and as long as as long as the community feel a need for it, we'll, um we'll keep going. Of course, media changes. Maybe it'll get to the point where radio, you know, the electronic stuff completely beats radio. But [00:20:00] I don't think that's in in in my lifetime anyway, so I hope we'll be able to keep going for a long time. Yeah, it's quite different when you can kind of hear something. I yeah, I think it's really different medium being able to hear stuff, not just see moving pictures and and that kind of thing. And I think these interviews are also useful. I mean, we do more hearing on the computer than we used to. Yeah, I think that's really interesting because someone was telling me about, um When I guess radio shows or whatever can go on [00:20:30] the Internet, they have a longer tail. I don't know what a tail is, but yeah, that because they stay online, you don't have to listen live and you can catch up on it later. And so there's listeners from all over the world. You've said I don't know whether they're regulars, but they they hit it now and then, at least. Yeah, which is quite exciting. And, um uh, for example, in TMLN, the, uh, Auckland newsletter carries an ad for it. with the usually with the website says to remind people up there. And I'm always telling people, you [00:21:00] know, that, Um um, to remember to remember that they can get it on the web and, uh, try and get publicity for it that way. We had schedule we had, um how do you call it? Leaflets at the out in the square to do that where we do the raffle at the next pine dance. We'll have a leaflet advertising out and giving the website as well. And, you know, just trying to get the word out amongst new and younger lesbians who may not have heard of it, you know, Are you aware of other lesbian radio shows around the world? [00:21:30] They certainly used to be lots. Um, but I don't think there are that many. Christchurch used to have one. I think that one's gone. I'm not sure. Um, funnily enough, we had a request from the Southland access radio just this last week. Could they replay our one because the manager there who I don't know, even know she's lesbian, but she hasn't managed. She tried to get a lesbian radio show going and out and didn't manage it, Could she use ours? And I've just emailed around our collective to say I can't see any reason why not anybody bothered [00:22:00] And, um and I'm sure we'll say yes. And I think, you know, I thought to myself, Why is she bothering? Because it's on the Web, they can get it. But on the other hand, if somebody is used to listening to 1000 access, they may hit it in a way they wouldn't hit it, you know, on the Web. So not everybody has Internet access that who can forget that? We think that everyone's got that's true too. But also, people use different sources for finding things, and they might find it that way when they wouldn't find it. You know, the other way and that sort of thing. So, um [00:22:30] um, I think I'm sure there are still other other programmes around the world, but I think it's interesting the way from my experience, New Zealand sort of keeps the L word very prominent. Um whereas an awful lot of things get subsumed into queer soup or into feminist. Um, in a lot of places, I mean, even the you think in America, the Michigan Women's Music Festival. It's a women's music festival. It's mainly lesbian. But, you know, what do you think that is? What do you think? God, [00:23:00] I'm not. I'm not a the enough to know, but I think I think out here we've been very staunch about lesbian politics. I mean, there are others. Of course, there are a lot of younger women who don't want to use the lesbian word. Who, Who Who, Uh, who would rather regard them as use the word just so they don't want to use the feminist word but want equality, you know? So I think things history change, things change. But I think there are at least, um, a lot of lesbians [00:23:30] in New Zealand who want to keep lesbian politics alive, uh, whether the younger generation will want to as well. But we've got quite a few younger women on our collective and I think on the library collective and so on and and and, uh so there are There are quite still some younger women who want to use the word lesbian and, um, who do identify that way politically and OK, we all have fluid changing identities and all that stuff, But nevertheless, there are some of whom that identity is an important one. And, um, not only 67 year olds like me, some [00:24:00] younger women have you always been really vocal. Have you always done kind of public speaking? And is that why lesbian radio interests you or? Well, I am professionally an academic. And, you know, if you're used to talking in 50 minute bites anyway, like the sound of your own voice, good training and right back in my university days in England, because I, uh I spent my 1st 25 years in England. I was involved when I was at university in Oxford. And it was while I was there, that, um uh we fought. I was [00:24:30] a feminist back then. I was only 18. 19, but I, I don't know what I'd call myself one there, because in the early sixties, you know, second wave wasn't wasn't that much going, but I certainly believe in quality. And, um, women couldn't get into the Oxford Union. Remember the Oxford Union? That's the thing. Where David Long famous debate. It's about uranium, you know, they were not admitted. Women were not admitted to the Oxford Union. It was a male only club. It wasn't like a student union that you had your sort of student unions within [00:25:00] your college. But this was the Oxford Union, which was a dictating club and a you know, a nice gentleman's club within the university. But it was within the within a university in a coed university, and women were not admitted. And so we fought for it and we got in while I was there. And so people said, You have to put your money where your mouth is and join, and you better start speaking. So they make a fuss about it when you try to join. Or were they kind of like, Oh, yeah, it is a bit old school that we don't. We we had to fight for it, but we won. And, um and [00:25:30] so that was about 1963 or something. And, um, I was about 20 a young undergraduate, And then I started making speeches at the Oxford Union, which is one of the most frightening places you could ever do. If you can speak at the Oxford Union when to that whole big crowd, when you get one of the big paper speeches. Um, then you can speak anywhere. And, uh, I, um Hitler, Why was it scary? Because it's such a big kind of prestigious, just a very big audience. [00:26:00] Very critical. No, no, nothing. Nothing. Nobody would be un or lady like that, but no, but it was just a a pretty, a pretty daunting audience. And I think after that I could speak anywhere. So I don't find talking on the radio. It's difficult. I sometimes talk a bit too fast because I've always got too much to say. I've been criticised for that in lecture as well, and I'm aware of it. I always want to put more into the 50 minutes or the the the radio programme than it's time for, but I've never had any trouble with it. It's sort of interesting [00:26:30] with, you know, we take all comers who want who have got the confidence to be on air here. We're happy to have them. Um um, but you do have some worries with some people's voices being better than others for radio and some people I find and I'm certainly not mentioning names and are some people absolutely terrific, and some people have wonderful content, but not that terrific voices. And some people have terrific voices, but I wish they have a little bit more content. And [00:27:00] many of our broadcasters are terrific at both, but that, you know. But one doesn't want to discourage people being being on air. And, um, so we tend to take it. We've had controversies over the years. That's probably an interesting thing for this about because of lesbian culture and and what is lesbian changing. There've been hard liners who say, for example, that we should absolutely only have lesbian voices and lesbian music. What is lesbian music you know by for about We always have those [00:27:30] problems with lesbian how we define things, But often with women musicians, you're not 100% certain, um, whether they're lesbian or not, and then some come out as lesbians on. So we've tended to get. As you know, culture has changed and, as I say, fluid identities and so on. What is lesbian? Um, not everybody, even on the collective, necessarily uses the lesbian word. Um, I think we've got by people who would identify as bisexual, probably on the collective, and we just I just don't want to push these things if they're happy being on lesbian [00:28:00] community radio, and that's what it is. Um, that tends to be fine. But controversy about whether we've interviewed we put we do publicity about all sorts of queer events. I mean, you know, the fact is a lesbian gay film festival or Pacific Games. We concentrate more on the lesbian aspects, but we've had gay men's voices where they're covering gay, and there's been issues on the programme being interviewed. We've had trans some transgender. There's always been issues in lesbian politics about, um, [00:28:30] male to female transgender people and whether they can be lesbians. I don't I try and avoid that controversy if I can, But, um, we haven't I don't think we've had a transgender member of the collective. We certainly had transgender people interviewed. But, um, you know these things, you We're not a very formal organisation, either. I should say we we run a bank account and I'm very careful with the money and, um, we have a collective meeting, usually about three or four times a year after a programme. Anybody who feels like coming, you know, [00:29:00] we give it publicity and we say we'll talk about the programme, meet each other because people go in one week. They don't necessarily see the new members of the collective. So we try and get together three or four times a year. But we're not a very formal organisation. We don't have formal policies, and we we evolve and it's worked. Um, at times sometimes think, Oh, maybe we ought to be more formal and then who wants to? You know, people want to go and make their programmes. That's the main thing. Has it always been this kind of, I guess, controversy around [00:29:30] identity and labels and says women and trans woman that kind of stuff or has it only been the last few years or Well, I think it was probably worse earlier on, in the sense that you know there was. I remember. I mean, people talk about the lesbian feminist late seventies eighties as being as lesbian feminist, being rigid and, you know, wearing overalls, O'Neal or whatever and being really anti boy Children and so on and so forth. And I think some people really did [00:30:00] have that experience. I think some, um, lesbians who who had boy Children really did have problems. I. I won't run down that experience at all, but I sometimes get a bit a bit upset about it, that it gets exaggerated and that people who weren't around at the time, you know, criticised the lesbian feminists of the seventies and eighties when they were doing a really big job and it was really hard to come out. And they were had to be much braver to be out as a lesbian in those days than you do now. So I think. But I think in some ways the controversy more than [00:30:30] when you know people would come. I don't know how much it emerged on the radio, but people would come to lesbian dances and somebody would say, Oh, she's not really a lesbian She's still living at home with her husband and things like that, You know, I think that was worse then, probably than it is now. I think they're probably a bit more tolerant and easy going, and some people think there's losses in that in that we aren't fighting enough, Um, the political battles. Now we may not have quite as bad political battles as we did as lesbians. But most Les lesbian feminist also had an awareness on race and class [00:31:00] issues. And a lot of you know, those are still as active and important. And poverty and and treatment of solar soul, mothers and and Maori and Pacific issues are as important as ever. And, um, I think lesbian feminist should be on the barricades to dealing with them all as much as ever. So I don't think we want to lose the politics fantastic. And how would we listen to you? Well, what days and et cetera, et cetera. Sunday mornings 10 to 11 on. [00:31:30] Um uh, it's only on AM 783 AM radio access and that's the live one. And then, um, if you go, if you want to listen on the Web, you can either go to the Wellington lesbian website wellington dot lesbian dot net dot NZ. And there's a connection there to access radio and direct to the Lesbian Community Programme. Or you can go to the access radio site, which is dead easy to find, and, uh, they have a list of all their programmes and you [00:32:00] just look for lesbian community and you find them there. Brilliant. Thank you very much, Prue, for taking the time and talking with us. Pleasure enjoyed it.

IRN: 169
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/mates_and_lovers_play.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003872
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089166
TITLE: Mates and Lovers play
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ahi Karunaharan; Ronald Trifero Nelson
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Ahi Karunaharan; Chris Brickell; Mates and Lovers (play); Ronald Trifero Nelson; gay; history; performance; theatre
DATE: 5 October 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast writer/director Ronald Trifero Nelson and co-producer Ahi Karunaharan talk about the second season of Mates and Lovers - a play based around historical events in queer New Zealand.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi. My name is Ahi Kaha. I'm one of the Co-produced for mates and lovers. Um, Ronald Treo Nelson, the, uh, the other producer and playwright and director, um, mates and lovers. The the play has, uh, has, you know, has enjoyed a a season that ended about a year ago. A year ago yesterday, in fact. So, um, this is a year afterwards, and we are about to go into rehearsal with [00:00:30] a new cast, a new script, uh, a new producer, new score, new choreography, new venues, new funding. So, uh, it's funny because somebody in the community said, Oh, who would ever want to see this show downstage after they've seen it at bats, you know, which was pretty funny and and and really, In other words, they thought we exhausted the audience at bats. And part of the reason I think the interesting bit [00:01:00] is why are we doing it? Because there's there's I think there's a real demand. And, um so we're looking forward to a season in Auckland in November and then during the out games it was just confirmed last week. We are ready to sign that contract as soon as we dig up $350 for a deposit, which we don't have. I mean, I think I have I have $4 of that. But anyway, as soon as we, uh, we dig up that that 3 50 [00:01:30] we are guaranteed a really quite lovely season during during games. And, uh, it's in March, and right after that, uh, we're in Nelson. So the show sort of because it's two guys because it's based on a Montana Award winning book because it's, um, as something that's never been done before in terms of gay history of New Zealand. Uh, and [00:02:00] I think it's a pretty good show. I think it sort of books itself. What do you What do you think? Well, I mean, I mean, one of the reasons why I jumped on project because I, you know, I graduated from drama school a couple of years ago, and, um, there's very little New Zealand new New Zealand work that's happening. So I'm very passionate about supporting work. That's, um, you know, from from A and, um and secondly, it's a gay play. I mean, it's a gay story. I mean, it's a celebration of our history, so It's like, you know, two ticks in one go. And I saw the season in bats and, um, you know, the the houses were fantastic, you know, ridiculously awesome. Um, [00:02:30] reviews And, um, the community really supported that. And we just knew that there was a a needed demand. And there's so many people asking for the show up in Auckland, and now I'll be performing up in basement, and that's got a very similar vibe to bats. So it's a very community based, not community based, but a very, um, urban kind of eclectic bunch of audience that come to come to that venue. And so the idea of being able to take our shop there was really, really cool, and I just wanted to be part of that, um journey, Ronald said. I say the word journey so there. But we would love to see things [00:03:00] like, You know, we love to go this journey as the process and, um but no, it it it is a really, um I mean I. I I've read a couple of the draughts now that Ronald has reworked and I mean it's a lot more clear. It's a lot more crisper There's beautiful links from each of the stories. And, um and and and most importantly, it just it has such a beautiful heart to the whole production. So, like, you know, as as a gay practitioners as well to be able to sit down and and and listen to these people's stories, um, you know, celebrate our our our ancestors and and their journeys and and and and their trials and tribulations, [00:03:30] it's it's just a really beautiful thing to witness and be part of yeah, in in that it was it was the The casting has has been tough because, uh uh, first of all, uh, Kent, uh uh from the last show decided he didn't want to do the show. He had, uh, gone off to to Europe to be with his new boyfriend. And so I I went up to Auckland on somebody's recommendation to to cast a new actor and and met with Paula, and and he, uh uh is [00:04:00] a dancer, a professional dancer and has been touring professionally for 10 odd years now and has done some TV work as an actor and but so primarily a dancer. But, uh, he and I interviewed him and auditioned him in a burger joint on K Road, which is really funny. And, um, you know, and and and tucked away into, like, the back room or something. And he was able to pull this off and and he he he had remarkable [00:04:30] abilities to sight read, uh, lines and and and we immediately noticed there were sort of, like brains coming out of his ears. In other words, he's a very smart guy and intuitive and and it was just great. The the the big problem. You may be able to relate to this. Gareth is that he was 61. He was 100 and 91. So he's massive guy and and, you know, in theatre and everything else you want to sort of balance things off. And he could be We could have a guy. [00:05:00] It would have worked if we had another actor who was maybe 5 ft two. You know, because there's there's that's interesting, but, uh, a guy, uh, a a an off the shelf guy 5 10 or 59 just wouldn't have been power would always look like he's towering. So, uh, we came back and in that point, I decided to to upscale the show and and and get somebody who had, uh uh a real good, solid training to replace [00:05:30] Sam. Sam did a beautiful job. Uh, in a lot of ways, Kent and sam are directly responsible for this. You know, the ability, the fact that we got the show at, uh, at downstage Uh, it was their performances that that did that. So So we had to find a Pocky guy tall, kind of skinny, Hopefully who could not only act very, very well and play a multiple tonnes of different kinds of roles, but also, uh, be [00:06:00] able to dance. Because, of course, we have Ty Royal doing the new choreography. So giving, giving someone like me to Ty Royal and say here choreograph this guy would be like, I don't know, giving somebody lard and telling him to, you know, make a sculpture. So So in other words. So in other words, I you know, poor tie. You know, you just can't give him somebody who so anyway, uh, Simon Leary, uh, had just, uh, has [00:06:30] not even graduated from drama school. And I saw his, uh, his solo, uh, called the election about, uh uh, uh, a boy running for head boy at a boys college in much like Simon's experience. And, um, he played them all different kinds of roles. He was tall, He was skinny, he was pac. He could move, and, uh, he definitely can act. So, uh, it [00:07:00] was it was these were it was imperative that we have, uh, a Maori guy in the show because we we just had to sort of try to tell that part of of, um, New Zealand gay history and and to bring that sort of power and and man to to to the stage. So anyway, those are the guys, and, um, we're happy as clams with them. Uh, we just saw shot signature photography just yesterday and got into [00:07:30] a little trouble. I love her. You just land right over there. Um, so, no, we we we were doing publicity photo shoot. Um, so we've been using, um a certain that I'm not gonna name Anyhow, the actors are passionately kissing, you know, undressing. And, you know, apparently last time they did the photo shoot, the actors got completely naked, but it was on a Sunday afternoon, but This was lunchtime passion, kissing men on knees doing funky stuff and stomp, stomp outcome angry staff member who was not happy. [00:08:00] And, you know, it was really interesting for me to witness. I know you hear about things like that in television or you hear about things in news where people are still hold on to their homophobic or I. I thought it was a bit of a homophobic kind of job that she had that that's what really triggered it off. But it was really interesting to witness that to see I mean, I mean nothing. It was nothing out of the ordinary, just two fellas, just snogging. And yet this woman felt so uncomfortable about it, it was dirty. Somehow she the expression on her face is like she was in an elevator and somebody farted. [00:08:30] But what I really loved was like the the the the amount of people that were just gathering by the plazas, all these girls, they were They were mostly girls who were just really fascinated because these boys are, you know, these boys are hot boys, you know, with their shirts off. And they had their shirts off their pants off and they were embracing and kissing. That was it. So, uh, they had a lot more clothing on than what they would have on if they were swimming, right? But it was the fact that they it was the same sex situation. [00:09:00] Uh, so the funny bit she goes over there, and she's starting to rant to the poor photographer. You can relate to this. He's just a guy with a bloody camera. Meanwhile, I'm someplace else. I'm dealing with the actors and I just sort of see this all going on. I'm hiding behind the plot because I don't want to be beaten up by him. But it was It was, you know, but it to me bringing it all back home. I mean, and it's like homosexuality is like an intellectual thing. Yeah, they deserve equal rights. Yeah, they deserve to have civil unions, [00:09:30] and they deserve that. But if just keep it out of our face, we don't want to see that stuff like it's dirty or just do that in your bedroom kind of stuff, you know, And and so hence the And it was more than just the 15 year old girls that were watching I mean, there were lots of the men wouldn't watch because that kind of which I was like, I wonder if they clubs at all, But I don't think they were. I don't think Yeah, but they had this sense of embarrassment on their face, I thought, and that was kind of interesting. [00:10:00] Yeah. It's like, Oh, my God. There, I. I thought of that. Oh, my God. You know, So So that was kind of that was that was really kind of kind of interesting. Uh, had you prearranged doing the photo? Yes, Yes, yes, yes. And it was all done And there was an email sent out. How did it resolve? Uh, we buggered off. I apologised to me, But I did. I apologise to the building facilitator, and she sort of poo pooed the whole thing. [00:10:30] Uh, and just sort of said, Well, you know OK, Yeah, right. But But the, uh, I was going to talk to the woman that I had that was so offended. And then I thought, uh, the administrator suggested I didn't need to do that, and she probably would have been a little confrontational, and I would have reacted. So we just needed that kind of response. Really? Um, just one person, really, isn't it? Hey, but listen to this. There's a new exhibition at Te Papa that just opened 34 days ago, right? It's essentially [00:11:00] I forget what it's called, but it's essentially kind of a culture history in New Zealand, right? So you get up to the to 1986 and law reform, and there's, like two or three metres of law reform stuff, right? Cool. But then right beside it, they have a a little sort of electronic gizmo where you can vote. So there's one about abortion and said, Do you agree with the woman's right to choose an abortion? And 70 odd percent said, Yeah, I really agree with it and then says, Do you agree [00:11:30] with homosexual law reform? And my mate went on opening day or the second day. 51% said they did not. We, you know, you know, we think everybody thinks that we've won the battle. Everything's hunky dory and homo land. Well, it ain't Kids are killing themselves left and right, uh, committing suicide. Kids are getting beat up in school. We face discrimination in ways that we're not even aware of. So anyway, I, I think I think that even empowers [00:12:00] us as who we are and and what what our struggles really are. You know, um, do you think it's harder putting on a gay plate? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, sure it is. I mean, it's hard putting a play period, and then, um, you know, to choose a New Zealand play, that's that's just not even harder. And then to, um, yeah, something that's of content. That's just it's just like it's like being a minority within a minority within a minority. Yeah, but look, look like [00:12:30] we have two guys playing 30 or 40 odd roles and there's no sets there, you know, the the the sort of the ensemble way that we do it on and on and on. We've created some pretty wacky sort of rules for ourselves. Plus, you know, contemporary dance thrown in. He was two actors anyway. Well, you know how that happened. It was my first year in the Masters, and when I was in a script writing class and and I stumbled on the book one rainy day at Unity Books and, um, [00:13:00] I went took my thumb through the book and I said, Yeah, I can do a play on this, right? So the story II I tried to figure out how I was gonna frame it, and it was going to be, uh, an amateur theatre company who was going to be performing Four Skins Lament and and I just I created the theatre company in my head and I started writing about it. They were in this old Baptist church in some small town, I think, on the South Island, and they [00:13:30] were all they were all amateur theatre players, and they were doing force against lament. And it was just engineered about the fact that all these plays would happen in the in the changing room of the Amateur Theatre so they'd have access to costumes and things like that, not the most brilliant thing in the world. So But anyway, then I go into auditions and I auditioned. I mean, I advertise for auditions everywhere on the planet, and there's a Wellington is such a small town that it's all done by shoulder tapping here, [00:14:00] and I wanted to leave this wide open to primary of the community. But at the same time specifically for the gay community as well. I was looking for like these 60 year old guys who had done some acting and hadn't done it in 30 years and just really imagine that kind of that kind of guy out there. Well, anyway, I had three guys show turn up and they were all remarkably Underqualified and under experienced and way too young. Probably the funniest one [00:14:30] was this guy who apparently was straight. I will tell you the story. He was really funny. I said, So are there any questions? And I decided before I said, I, I just looked at these guys and I said, Oh, they're all wrong I said, But, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna audition them And then because I said I would and, uh uh, we were all done and one guy says, um does in every scene do if I should get this role, Do I have to kiss another guy? And I said, no, [00:15:00] but you do have to suck his cock, and it's like I've waited 30 years to say that to those guys. I was just really great. I thought, Oh, man, this is hot shit you know, this is, uh I'm waiting for this. Anyway, I didn't cast those guys. Uh, Sam was there helping and casted cast him. But I, I mean, so here I was, uh, this was my major project for the Masters. So I I stared at the ceiling till about three in the morning that night and realised [00:15:30] that I would do it as a two man show and play all the characters and threw out all the amateur theatre stuff, threw all that stuff out and started at zero. And, um, one of the one of the one of the best things I've ever done in my life because suddenly the show had a had a real sort of life and a vitality about it and didn't have that contrived sort of circumstance surrounding it. But nevertheless, uh, it was a good idea, but it was It was a hard, hard thing to pull off and continues to be. [00:16:00] But it's part of the if I dare say the charm of the show of two guys and two chairs. So, um and then when I started working on it and sort of figuring it out of my head, I realised the power of all that and the show will. Sure it'll be playing down stage. But we could also do a bar in, uh, in bulls, too. And that's or a living room or or someplace else. So that's part of the part of the stick to part of its power [00:16:30] as well. You were talking about, um, a wee bit of reworking of the script. I mean, how much reworking have you done? I quite happily spent three weeks at Autumn Farm who sponsored me, uh, to do nothing, but, uh, wake up every day to a nice breakfast and, uh, beside an open fireplace. And, uh, I I typed and gathered firewood. That's what I did for three weeks, which is you know, God, it was ecstasy. It was wonderful. And, [00:17:00] uh uh, they made me nice meals, and I would just Yeah, I would just type. So I would guess that I have thrown out 40% and probably replace that 40% and then rewrote massively. So the show, it's it's running over 90 minutes. There will not be an international and no interval. Um, and I guess the last one was 83 minutes so it'll be a little longer. [00:17:30] Uh, but it it it goes up to 2010. There's as the other one did. But there's there's some stuff that you know just didn't need to be there or was confusing, nevertheless, but it's, uh, it's a It's a lot better script, Um, and a lot less sort of clumsy in spots as well. So, um, still not finished? Uh, we're going into a rehearsal tonight, and I have some things to do this afternoon [00:18:00] to finish a few scenes. Um, yeah, it's a much better script. And And I can tell you after the November season, I'll be going back and making changes for the March season. It's just how I work, so it will always be always. I always believe it can be better always and and there'll be some. There's some scenes I've always wanted to do, but I don't know how to don't know how to do. So, um, I'm figuring that stuff out, so that's that's kind of fun. What I'm learning is that I can do this. [00:18:30] I laugh because, I mean, that's what that's what you learned. I mean, you learn, you say I'm I guess I'm fortunate all to write. All I have to do is sit down and write, right? So But But But I've learned that and, uh, other people you know have to I don't know, dream dreams or have you know, eat acid or something or get drunk or whatever, but all I have to do is sit in front of a keyboard and it happens. So I'm pretty happy about that. And there's so [00:19:00] there's there's, uh, at least, uh, I mean, I can I'm lucky to be a director and and a writer and I have mates who will help me produce to be able to make these things happen for the for the for the Queer Community of New Zealand, but also the the the, uh, the rest of the country as well. We talked just before about how it's hard to put on a gay play in New Zealand, but I'm not quite sure if we actually got to some examples. Can [00:19:30] you give me some, um, examples of why is it so difficult? What? What are the things that stand out to you? What are the challenges? I mean, like like I said, earlier, like a lot of the gay theatre that I've seen in New Zealand have been borrowed or, you know, interpretations of popular American or English place. So we've had things like boys in the band, Angels in America and stuff like that. So I mean, it comes with, you know, a certain amount of, um, I guess you know, exposure or or previous history with it. Whereas this is such a new thing, I mean CN or or or even New Zealand [00:20:00] about developing new work. It's, um it's just so they just don't know what what's involved. Um, it's also, um it's, you know, um, being able to, um, cater, I suppose, to the community like, um well, with something like this with something with, especially with this kind of player with this kind of story. Um, you know, there's so much ownership with that I mean, and I mean, if if if you grew up here or if you know of the people, um that there's gonna be parts of our history or fabric that you want to see in that So there's there's a lot of, um, um, there's a lot of careful research [00:20:30] or careful um I don't know. Am I right in saying that? I think I think I'm an American and I've been here for nine years and not once has anybody ever said to me How dare you write this history of no one's ever, ever, ever done that to me, Which is I wasn't expecting it, but it wasn't going to surprise me. But then it surprises me in the sense that why has it taken us this long [00:21:00] for us to tell our own stories? Um, you know, like, because Because kiwis are so self deprecating and they they they have the self worth of a fucking door knob, you know? I mean, it's well, no, no, it's just the idea. Oh, we're not very interesting. Oh, what was me? We're just We're just Kiwis and the assholes. No, but I, I that that attitude is that attitude is there. And it's just such a bore. I always saw the story. I was I was in New Zealand for about a month. I was getting the first haircut [00:21:30] I ever got in New Zealand. The guy's cutting my hair. There's a radio on on his his boom box, a CD playing. I said, Oh yeah, that's that's kind of cool. Who's that? And he says, Oh, that's the so and so's They're pretty good. They're OK for a New Zealand band. I thought, Oh, fucking hell, I don't want to live someplace where something is OK for a New Zealand band or a New Zealand play or a New Zealand sculpture on and on and on. And I just don't want to live in that world, you know? Fuck that noise, [00:22:00] you know? So I think I think I think I think people often yearn for plays and theatre that I that is from some place else and and II, I guess I can understand that. But that that just ain't me. But then if you look at like, I mean film, you know, recently our stories have been been celebrated overseas and and we're really supporting. Now let's look at films like Boy or um, Home by Christmas, and stuff like this is absolute [00:22:30] support. I think mates and lovers is what makes that difficult or a gay play. Quote UN quote is is trying to convince an audience a straight audience that it's for them as well. My my goal was that I want people to walk away from the show saying that they learned a little bit about New Zealand and then maybe a little bit about gay New Zealand after that. So [00:23:00] II i it it was It was It was, uh that was always my goal. And sometimes I think I've gotten there a little bit. Sometimes I think I'm crazy, but it's that that's what it's all about. And, uh, it's not necessarily a I wanted to be a I wanted to be more about Arturo New Zealand than to be a gay play for sure, that's for sure. Um and and the actors this time around, just like the last time, just, I think, really carry this real sense [00:23:30] of burden on them because they are doing this show. And, uh uh, Kent and Sam did, uh, to their credit and and really pulled it off. Real sense of commitment and belief in the show. Um, the community in this recasting that I've done, um uh, you know, a couple of people were were [00:24:00] really sort of disappointed that I had, uh, uh, recast it because they liked Sam and Kent so much in this show. And, um, after I explained what I was doing in terms of the bigger, broader professional production of the show, this is what I had to do. They sort of explained it. I mean, they sort of understood. But at the same time, it was their level of ownership over the play. It's like, Gee, you know, So they argue with the director, the producer, the playwright [00:24:30] about his flipping show and you know, to me that just sort of showed that they were very much engaged and and and invested in that and willing to take me off about my own show. It was pretty funny. So So that's that's really encouraging stuff, really encouraging stuff. How hard is it to put on a second season? There's pros and cons. I mean, the great thing about the second season is that we've got, um, our success of our previous season, you know, luckily, the show I'm not. Luckily I mean, the show did extremely well. So we've got some awesome quotes and stuff like that, which [00:25:00] when we apply for funding, you know, they want to hear those buzzwords. You know what I mean? What's the quote that you say, um, the masterful one. Yeah. Producer playwright director Ronald Nelson has triumphed. You know, things like that look excellent on a funding application. So So? So I'm I'm trying to get support of contra deals from people. Um, it's a lot more easier because we've had that previous history and we set up relationships. Um, you know, But then at the same time, you know, it means that, um we can't ask the same people for the same things all over [00:25:30] again. So, I mean, as as half and half. Um, but, yeah, I think the biggest, um, the biggest asset about doing a second season is that we've got everything from the previous season to, um, to work towards. And, you know, we're not slugs. I mean, I mean, it'd be real. It would be nice to, you know, for people to write us off and just say, Oh, those guys, they're just sitting in a room and acting and dancing and making jokes. But, you know, so much of this is is hard core business stuff, and and [00:26:00] we're not trained in that There are people who are out there. Uh, but we don't know how we pay them at this point. So we're sort of faking it by ourselves. And now we're we fans, Uh, fabulous art art in New Zealand just this very morning became a charitable trust, and that's going to help us from everything from GST. But it also, uh uh makes us, uh, you know, appear to be legitimate. I mean, we are legitimate, but that sort of backs up that legitimacy. So there's just [00:26:30] a lot of there's a lot of hard core business crap contracts. I mean, so this professional production, we have to pay professional wages to actors, and that's about what they'd get at Burger King. But it's a lot the same that you get in a professional theatre as well. You know, it's just remarkably under these these people with incredible experience and and education, and that's what they get. So, um, uh, uh, he [00:27:00] and I, as Coro producers, uh uh, we're not. We're surviving by our wits until, you know, the ticket receipts come in in November and and until after the bills are paid, and then we'll divide $47. I bought myself a happy meal, but we're in that intermediate stage, and we could be here for a while, but eventually, You know, we want to develop the idea of a of, uh, of [00:27:30] an artistic board of directors, uh, from people in the industry and and really starting to to to serve the gay community. I'm hoping with a with a really tight, wonderful 20 minute show that we can do around high schools all around the country about coming out and HIV and suicide and things like that. And we we think there's a funding for that. But we're looking to employ our people and to give them a wage and to get them out and constantly improving their craft and and [00:28:00] travelling and and and getting our name out there, there'll be another show after this. And then there'll be another show after that. But eventually, You know, we really have to look at, um, a place where we get funding from central government or or counter deals or whatever. So our lives can be a lot more sort of comfortable and where we can, uh, yeah, I don't know where I'd be without the bank. A boyfriend? [00:28:30] What? We call this. You've heard the BNZ This is the BBF. So the BBF Uh, yeah, the bag of boyfriend is is a is A is a great thing. So, you know. So if I if I need to put 20 bucks down on a you know, on borrowing on hiring a bowler hat for a photo shoot, where in the hell is that gonna come from? So these are, you know, we we're real guys and you know, we have real lives, and and, uh, it's it's it's building the company to [00:29:00] force something that not only the gay and lesbian and and and bisexual and transgender folks who appreciate and applaud. But we're Kiwis and we're doing Kiwi Theatre, and that's that's going to be the, uh, that's going to be the thing that we can all be proud of. So what's it like trying to get sponsorship or funding or contra deals for a gay production? Lots of lots of paperwork, lots of writing, um, budgets [00:29:30] as we realised, Um, it's not our strength. Um, but, you know, I have sleepless nights doing things like that. It's it's just a lot, a lot of ground work, and, um basically, yeah, just lots of writing I mean, like, you know, we did an application for Auckland Art live, but, you know, they asked us specific questions. You know, how innovative is your show? Who is the show going to appeal to? How are you gonna market it? And so but the the process of, um applying for funding or asking for people makes it more and more clearer for us as practitioners About what we're what we're making and what we're trying to sell. So, [00:30:00] you know, And each time we keep applying for funding, we get more and more clearer with, um, being able to articulate what our show is about. And, um, yeah, so, um, and it gets easier and easier with each application. Once we've done a template, we just do a lot of copy and paste, you know, generic and move it around. So we've learned that. And, um, yeah, so, um, I hope that answers what? Um, when on a funding application, it says, How innovative is your show? I mean, what do you reply to that? What do we say to that? I remember it. Very innovative. He's the director. [00:30:30] He think it's really innovative or into a I forget how you say it. But But, uh, now the show is innovative. Uh, and and I mean I mean, we're not sort of glossing that or making up something that isn't there, but two guys in a chair based on a nonfiction book. I mean, that's that's pretty whack stuff. And and and the the the fact that the, you know the guys are playing, you know, 30 odd roles. I mean, that's that's pretty innovative thing. And the contemporary dance element, [00:31:00] The way that the actors, you know, manipulate costumes throughout the show is, is, is fairly innovative. I mean, saying that we're using different theatrical styles and, you know, and and and different kind of methodologies to this this new show, for instance, and and you know, it's kind of funny because this is this is where we are. I have a I think it's a funny scene. I think it's OK. It's It's two condoms in a at [00:31:30] the bottom of a rubbish bin, uh, after, uh, a pretty heavy duty night at a at a sauna in Auckland and they're talking and they're they're they're they're they're revelling in their experiences and and what it was like for them. And, uh, they went, you know, and I don't know what the literary word is for this when you apply human characteristics to an inanimate object. Well, I know what it is for animals, but I and things like that. Yeah, but anyway, that [00:32:00] word. So these guys, these condoms, Willie and, uh, Jimmy and, uh, they're very serious, sort of condoms. And and they take their duty very seriously. And so they explain the kind of sex they had and how they were put on, And how are they disposed of and and various physical attributes of their they guys as they call them. So it's it's it's a cool thing, but so we're doing that as as a puppet show. [00:32:30] So these guys are gonna take off their socks, their white socks and put it on their arms, and they're gonna do you know they're gonna do these These these, uh, puppets will sort of look like condoms with reservoir tips and and, um uh, so that's that's pretty innovative and pretty fun. It's towards the end of the show. It takes place in the nineties, and and and that and but aesthetically, Director I have to find another place in the show [00:33:00] where I use other objects on stage, whether it's costume or set in the same way. In other words, I animate, um, other objects on chairs. So I've been thinking about that and how like to set up that continuity between you have a rule about your directing style When you doing stuff? Yeah, I always use things three times. So, uh, for instance, uh, the sock is obviously used as a costume piece on somebody's foot, and then it's used as a hand puppet. [00:33:30] And then the third time, we'll probably be down on his pants when he's trying to get a date that night, right? Yeah, that's it. Yeah, very single. Very available on the show every night at the end. Uh, no, no, no, please move along. This. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's it's, uh, So there's all these, uh, you know, it's just it's how shows were built. And, uh, there's there's struggles. And there there's some failures in the last show. I mean, I acknowledged some things where they we're just sort of hanging out and [00:34:00] and not good. So we're we're cleaning all those up and and it'll be a good show. And it'll be a better show after the season after that because I mean that that's the That's the luxury of being able to do repeat seasons that we get clearer and clearer and we get we refine our craft. So in having this Auckland season, then the Wellington season Nelson season. Then by the time we Nelson, it's gonna be like, Yeah, well, you know, what's amazing is if we were filmmakers, we would have shot this puppy a year ago and there it would be sitting there and we would have edited it. And we say, You know, you [00:34:30] know, we could have done better There could It's just you know, God, you know, That's why I That's why I That's why I didn't do film. Because I, I always want to be able to play with it and and get it better and better and better. Nelson seems to be an interesting choice for taking the production to why, why was that? Um, because I was down there rewriting, and, uh, they had just renovated the Theatre Royal or Theatre Royal. [00:35:00] And you know, I, I knocked on the door I had an appointment with this, this woman named Janice and knocked on the door to the theatre. It's a renovated 19th century theatre with a proceum march, and you know, it's fascinating. The the chairs that were installed in 18 80 something were second hand from the UK. I mean, the the the stories, the stories, these chairs, these seats could tell, you know. So that's, [00:35:30] um it's It's a fascinating place and and we're only doing a weekend there, but it will get us at the top of the North Island, and we're interested in playing around in small towns as well. I'm thinking about going to Golden Bay because there's there's I. I like the idea of people not only seeing this show because it's the history of gay New Zealand, but at the same time it's a kind of show that they would never see out in the S. You know, it's just, uh, it's stylistically [00:36:00] or otherwise. It's just something that they would they would never see. So So, um, we're looking at smaller gigs after that on the South Island, And, uh, maybe eventually working our way down to Allen Hall at Otago. Um, but, um, venues are few and far between. And, um, there's, you know, at at a certain point, hopefully the plan is that, [00:36:30] uh, uh, someone will pick us up, and they will be the producers. And, uh um, and we negotiate that deal. And, you know, uh, we do festivals, so that would be the greatest thing. So, uh, that would be the next. Ultimately, that would be the next sort of click for us and the show. That would be the best case scenario for us. And then we start a new show. So it's performing and I disappear [00:37:00] and go write a new show, so yeah. Yeah. Isn't he gonna ask what that's gonna be about? So what is your next show gonna be about? I'm not gonna tell you. It will rock your world. It it will. It will. It will. Yeah. It will rock your world. It'll it'll be hot Shit. So you guys have assembled, um, a pretty stellar production crew and cast for this. Can you go through who you've got? And, um, give me a brief bio on all [00:37:30] those people. Yeah. So, um, Samuel Holloway doing music? Holloway, He and I worked together five years ago doing a glory hall. And that was, you know, Glory Hall was exactly what you thought it was, but I think he sort of there's no progress. So I think, uh, I think, uh, Samuel, sort of, uh uh, you know, he sort of did that. Yeah. Yeah, we're all proud. It was a great show. God, Neil Hall. Uh, Ty Royal? Uh uh. Me, Uh uh, Sam [00:38:00] Neil Holloway did did the music for that, and, uh, he has won all sorts of awards, and he does see the score is going to be lush. Beautiful. And then you got, as you said, Tai. Oh, ta ta royal. Of course, You know, uh, who's currently touring? Touring with, uh and, uh, a black grace fame [00:38:30] and, uh, often called New Zealand's, uh, best male dancer. Yeah. Can't beat that. And and I have known each other for a long time, but, uh, even I even he he and I talked about working on mates and lovers three years ago, and the timing was just really off for him, and we could never pull it off. So, uh, he and I had a remarkable meeting in the sunshine just last Sunday. And, God, you're so happy to do a collaborative art form. I thought, [00:39:00] you know, because I Oh, God, What do I know about dance? I know, I know nothing. You know, I know what I like. You know, it was sort of crap, but, you know, Ty, he was able we were able to reduce things down to to ideas that communicated to both of us, like you do with any designer or any situation. I was happy as a clam, and we walked out and we said, Wow, we figured out the dance. It was great. Just Yeah, I was happy to me. It was the sort of feeling like I you know, [00:39:30] it's like I met somebody and they were really hot, and they thought I was hot. And it wasn't quite a fatu situation, but it had that sort of quality to it. But anyway, yeah, that's who else do we have? Um So we've got to And, uh, Simon Leary we talked about, um, designers Ambrose Simons, who works for multimedia, and, uh, he and I He was in glory hole, too. It's [00:40:00] all those glory hole guys. Yeah, It's great. Um uh, and he is a dancer and is ta's boyfriend works for multimedia lighting in Auckland. And, uh, uh, he'll be a fine designer. Photographers or designers and stuff like that. Um, you talked about Contra deals? Uh uh, typically, you know, it's a trade out. So I know, for instance, that, uh, toy, uh, very [00:40:30] few of their MT a students come from Auckland. So we're doing an Auckland show doing a show in Auckland, and I was able to work out a Great Contra deal for rehearsal space. I know Gareth Watkins is interested in plugging his his book and his, uh, website. So he he was He was easy plus. Plus, you know, we thought we would entertain him on Sunday afternoons. Countless Sunday afternoons. We'd come up here, um uh to to hear Kiki, [00:41:00] uh, is is, uh, works at or worked for the NZAF for for a decade? Uh, did a master's in Maori studies? Great guy. Uh, Bill Logan who? I I witnessed one of the leaders from homosexual law from 1986 is writing a a thing for our programme. Uh, Brian Wang, uh, is an IT guy. Uh uh, I think how did I hook him into this? Uh, he's a friend of mine. [00:41:30] He's an American from LA. I think I said you can meet hot guys. I think I got him to, uh he's, uh he's, uh he's helping with with all that coordination and and is doing a great job. Um uh, lots of people are helping and you appeal to their you know, you you you try to give something back. Uh, David Allen, who's providing all the IT and and and website design and all that sort of stuff. I mean, it would cost us thousands of dollars if he charged us. So [00:42:00] we we always try to be nice to him and, you know, he's a he's a business guy. He's a hard core business guy in IT and and advises us, you know, really wonderfully, Um and it's it's it's because we're all gay and that opens the door in many, many ways. We're lucky, just like if you were doing Sri Lankan Theatre and you wanted [00:42:30] sponsors, who would you go talk to? The Italians Try to say something that you know. The analogy is the analogy is we're we're talking to our peeps. You know, that's that's That's what we're doing. We're we're talking to our peeps and our peeps generally respond. Plus, we got a good product. I mean to say it in that sort of crass way. I mean, we got a good we got a good show and and it's it's proven now. [00:43:00] It's like, RuPaul you ever watched you know RuPaul's show where Where she says, Don't fuck it up, OK, you got a good book and you got a good script and you have a good track history here. Just don't fuck it up. So we're trying not to fuck it up.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089167
TITLE: Stuart Douce profile
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VOICES: Stuart Douce
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2000s; Stuart Douce; Wellington; education; employment; school; single sex schools; teaching; transcript online
DATE: 5 October 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Stuart talks about some of the issues with being a gay teacher at a single-sex secondary school.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Stuart, why did you get into teaching? I wanted a job where I could sort of help young people and and, um, have a job that, um, would help make the world a better place. What kind of age were you when you got into teaching college? I was. I must have been early 20. I just finished university. So I must have been and must have been sort of early 20. And were you out at the time? Yeah, I was. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was out I. I sort of gone [00:00:30] through that whole coming up process and had a bit of a sort of a non serious job. And then I was. Then I was like, OK, I'm gonna kick start my career now and go to Teachers College and, um, be a secondary school teacher, going through teachers college and being out. Did that have any challenges for you? Yeah, it was It was sort of a bit strange because I was learning how to be a teacher. But then I was I had kind of this extra layer on top, on top of, um I'm a gay teacher as well. And, [00:01:00] um, you know, do I do. I want to be a role model. Or do I? Is it gonna be worth the the personal cost to me of that or or should I just, you know, be closeted and just get on and do the job? And how did that pan out? I guess as my confidence increased, um, I decided that I would sort of be out and just be me. And if that meant being a bit of a role model for a few students, then so be it. But yeah, to me, it ended up being just part. And being gay is just such a normal [00:01:30] part of my life. I It's difficult for me to, um, close off parts of my life during part of my day. So it was just easier and less complex just to be out. What was that like at Teachers College? Did you encounter anything? Um, because of that? Uh, not really. Um Well, at one stage, I did get put into a school with a and my, um, associate teacher was gay as well, and I always wondered that Was that just chance, or were they trying to help me out? Um, I'm not sure. I always wondered, though, because [00:02:00] we always had these extra lectures on, um, like female teachers and boys schools and, um, teachers of different ethnic groups in different areas, how they were getting on with teachers and in different schools. But there was never a sort of a lecturer or anything on. Well, what about, um, non heterosexual teachers and non heterosexual students? It was all just pretty invisible. So you left teachers college, and then you went to Was it a single six secondary [00:02:30] boys school? Yes. Yeah, it was, Yeah, in the city. And, um, yeah, that was that was quite good. I was quite intimidated when I first went there when I got the job there, because I went to a coed school myself, and it was kind of a a quite a bloke, real man, kind of an environment. And I wasn't quite sure how I'd sort of cope with that, but Yeah, I kind of found my feet, found my feet after a few years there, and, um, and then just ended up being outing myself in in a in a just a in a classroom [00:03:00] environment. Um, because of, you know, obviously certain words that kids were were using, which I didn't find acceptable. And then it just became just another part of who I was. Um, but yeah, I think the biggest thing I found was working in a boys school was working out what it means to be a man and working out what masculinity is because I, I went to a coed school and and I didn't I don't fit a lot of the stereotypes of obviously straight people, but I don't feel [00:03:30] I fit some of the stereotypes of sort of gay people either. So I suppose over the last 10 years, I have been working out for myself. What does it mean to be a man and and what is what is masculinity? Um, as I see you know, boys and boys schools grow up, and I see boys and co-ed schools grow up in these different environments. And with our changing attitudes towards, um, you know, what is it to be a man? It's certainly been a really interesting experience. And in interesting times, um, to be a man, Mhm. [00:04:00] Just taking you back to when you first kind of outed yourself at the single sex boys school. What kind of words were they using in the classroom that that you found so offensive? Oh, everything's gay or everyone's a fag or everyone's a homo And yeah, it's just it's just it's It's It's, um it's like a pandemic. It's just all over the place. Every day it's being said and no one's doing anything about it. No one's. No one's calling [00:04:30] them up on it. You know, senior management in the schools don't Teachers and teachers don't Other teachers don't seem to do anything about it. Um, we just fight, we've lost, we've lost the battle and we're just fighting a a big war. Um, because it's just now it's such a common word. What kind of year are we talking? When when this was happening? Oh, that would have been maybe five or six years ago. But it's still the case today that if you go into any secondary school, um, yeah, within within 30 seconds or a minute, you'll [00:05:00] hear the word gay or fag or homo or something. So when you heard that, what did you do? How did you feel? Uh, one particular day. I just had enough and thought no, this is just not good enough. And I pulled the kids up for saying it, and I said, I just said, Look, there's there's at least one person in the room that finds that personally offensive because it affects them. And it didn't take them long to work out who? That one, who that one person was and what were their reactions? Uh, yeah, they were quite apologetic. [00:05:30] Um, I think certainly made them think that they're using these words. And And the thing that the kids will always say is we don't mean it like that. Um, they don't mean something's gay in the way that we might think it's, um gay. Um and I think it just made a lot of them think that realise that, you know, they actually do know gay people. Some of their friends might be gay. It's just they don't actually know that they are. So they The message I was trying to give to them was you could be potentially insulting your best friend or other [00:06:00] people around you. Um, if you don't, you know, if they're not out to you, then, um yeah, you could be upsetting some people that are quite close to you without even realising it by using those kinds of words. And that's what I wanted to stop. So after you had said it, what was going through your head? Oops. What have I done? Yeah, because it was certainly unplanned. It was just sort of in the heat of the moment. Maybe I should have just walked out of the room and calmed down and came back in and giving him giving them out of detention or or just did what everyone else did, which is just to ignore [00:06:30] it. Um, but I thought, Oh, well, I've done it now. There's no going back. And so I just just carried on. And of course, it didn't take long for it to spread around the school. And, yeah, it wasn't too bad. Some students, some classes, wanted to talk about it for a little bit. But, you know, within a couple of days it all just kind of died away and people knew about it. And I was certainly open to them asking about it in future years because it was kind of a rumour. They wanted to know if it was true or not. And then we just kind of moved on, and I think because I didn't make [00:07:00] a big deal out of it, and I didn't make a big deal about being open about it, they didn't seem to either. So everyone just knew. But it didn't really need to be talked about because no one made a big deal out of it. Can you recall any instances where you think you were treated differently because of people knowing that? Uh, not really. Although I do wonder if because I was at the school for about 88 or nine years and I never got a promotion and I, I even I wondered to this day, I wonder if that had anything to do [00:07:30] with it or not, You know, I don't know. Hm. Don't know what makes you say that. Well, I reckon I'm a pretty good teacher, I reckon. I. I had what it takes to, you know, to, um, go up through the ranks a little bit. After eight years, most teachers after a few years, you'd be getting, um, units of responsibility for something and nothing ever came my way. Um, so I don't know if Yeah, who knows? How did the teaching staff react? Uh, that, Yeah, it was quite interesting because [00:08:00] I just assumed that they would have known after the kids had kind of known because, um But it was just one day when one of the PE teachers was just sitting down and having lunch with him and and they were talking about another single PE teacher and he was going, Oh, he's quite, you know, he's quite good looking. He's quite nice. He said if I was gay, I'd go for him. You know? Have you have you? What do you think? And, um so, yeah, no one ever made a big deal of it out of it to my face. Um, and everyone's, um, sort of seemed quite nice to me, but But I, I think in a lot of schools, teachers are kind of reasonably [00:08:30] educated and they've got reasonably sort of I'd say good attitudes and are tolerant of, you know, the whole tolerant of diversity stuff. But I think they they sort of are because they're caring people because of the that that's the type of people that are attracted to that kind of, um, profession. So No, I Yeah, I don't regret doing it. Um, but I just sometimes wonder about the personal cost versus the benefit. Um, but yeah, know what's done is done. [00:09:00] But I think being in a city school helps, too, because, um, the school I'm at now is not in the city. And, um, the attitudes are sort of quite different. So, yeah, um, I'm sort of quietly in the closet and in my current school, um, although I found out there's a couple of lesbian women on the staff and they don't seem to be hassled at all. So maybe one day, Um, but I just like to, um, get I just like to for people to get to know me first as a person before [00:09:30] finding out those kinds of details which might cloud their judgments about you know who I am and and what I do. It's interesting. As as a a gay male, but actually, even just as a male in the, uh, education system, um, I imagine that must be quite hard nowadays. Yeah, people sort of say that it is, but I don't know if I'm a bit naive or not, but I Yeah, I think as long as you're just careful and get the basics right. Um, [00:10:00] and you're in a school environment where they, the senior management, trust their staff. I don't think you you you you'd seriously think, you know, you'd get into any problems as long as you know, as long as you had some boundaries that were appropriate and you kept to them. Um, at my last school, there was just, you know, just underlying procedures about if you were seeing students one on one, then you know, if they're in your classroom, you just keep the door open. You just let another member of staff know what's going on. So, um, [00:10:30] so as long as nothing is hidden then and things are quite open, Yeah. I don't think you get into any problems as long as you sort of keep your boundaries, you know, and and, um yeah, it's all good. Does it ever worry you that I mean, even the accusation, um, is can kind of ruin your career. Does that ever play on your mind in terms of just being a male in in the school system And and how, um, people seem to be so willing to to jump on the the the negative angle. [00:11:00] Yeah, not for me. I, I Yeah, I've got other things that I kind of worry about, like, Oh, I need to plan a lesson for after lunch, and I haven't really planned anything. What am I gonna do? Yeah, it doesn't, really. It doesn't really register on my psyche very much. Um, but I know I've got good, decent boundaries. I know that, I. I work in a supportive environment where people trust have a lot of trust. You know, I'm a trained professional. I know what boundaries are, so I just don't Yeah, I don't really worry too much about that, but I am clear in certain situations. I won't [00:11:30] put myself into certain situations exactly for that reason, um, it's if I was a PE teacher, it would be. Could be quite different. You know, I certainly wouldn't be going into any changing rooms or anything like that, whereas the straight male teachers might and and I would think that's fair enough, But for me, I would be a lot more cautious. Um, just just Yeah. Do you think it's easier nowadays for um either a questioning student or a gay and lesbian student in secondary [00:12:00] school. I'd like to think things are getting easier and easier all the time for, um, for young people and I. I kind of hope that it is, I think, with the likes of the Internet and people's changing attitudes, that, um, young people can be more open about questioning and asking. But I still think it's the the hardest thing for the young people to do is actually find that very first person to talk to and say, You know, hey, I think I might be, um so, yeah, I think it might be [00:12:30] easier in some ways, but in other ways I guess because everything is more open, it might be harder because it can be more talked about more often. Whereas in the past it was just invisible. No one ever assumed you might be gay because it just, you know, was so invisible. But now it's not. So people might wonder about people without girlfriends a bit more than maybe they did in the past. Is there a lot of teasing and bullying that goes on in school? Yeah, I think there is, and I think there's a There's a lot that goes on that. We don't, [00:13:00] um, see or we as teachers we don't know about. I think that, like, name calling is pretty chronic. Um, but but and part of me says, Yeah, that is wrong. But then part of me says, Well, it is reality. And if we try and put these kids in a in a, you know, totally safe environment in schools, well, they're not going to any ever experience a bit of bullying, and and they will never build up resilience. So I it's a natural part of growing up is to kind of pick on other people. So without seeming kind of harsh [00:13:30] and uncaring, it's reality. It happens. Um, And if it does get quite serious, there are certainly avenues that students and teachers and schools can take to, um to stop it. And I think schools are quite good at, um, stopping it. As soon as something is brought to their attention, Has a student ever come to you and either come out to you or said that they're being bullied? Yeah. I. I had one student come out to me, um, at school that Yeah, that was [00:14:00] That was, um that was pretty cool. Um, yeah, but I haven't Had anyone come up to me and say, um, you know, I'm being bullied with the student that came out to you. How did you handle that? Yeah, it was. I was just It was just kind of caught me by surprise because it was at the end of the day and I was just packing up, ready to go home, and this boy came up to me and said, I've got something I want to tell you. And so he just sat down and we had a bit of a chat. Um, and I just kind of did a lot of listening and and just kind of, um, acknowledge what he was [00:14:30] saying and and how brave he was. And, um, you know, just offered him a lot of support and reassurance and, um, sort of Yeah, a lot of, um, support for being so incredibly brave at your first single sex school. Were there many out students? Oh, no. There was There was, um Oh, there was one. There was one. guy Josh, he won't mind me mentioning his name. Um, yeah, he [00:15:00] was about 15 or 16. I think when he came out. And, um, yeah, that that was kind of quite interesting, because he was he was, uh, really into rugby. So I think it threw a lot quite a lot of the other boys, because, um, to them, it was a total shock. How did they cope? Uh, Josh was pretty good. You know, he's a pretty strong, young, resent young man, so he coped with it. Fine. But the the senior management of the school, they didn't cope with it. They they were like, Oh, we don't have any gay kids [00:15:30] at the school. And so yeah, they, um I think they found it quite, um, quite tricky to deal with. So when you say that, they say they don't have any gay kids at the school. I mean, that was that said to the students, or was that said in the teacher's room or Oh, no, it wasn't kind of said, but it was kind of like it was kind of implied that, um, you know, like, we don't kind of talk about that kind of stuff here. Um, yeah, it was kind of just I think it was just in an area where the senior management just felt uncomfortable, [00:16:00] and they just kind of didn't know how to deal with it or didn't know what to deal. Didn't know how to deal with it. So they just kind of ignored it and hoped it would go away. Um, I know in in a lady at, um, in a sort of a school video that the students made that was showed at assembly. It had some incredibly, um, homophobic, um, images on it with the kids. And, um, yeah, the school. I think because of the subject matter that it was kind of insinuating they, [00:16:30] in my opinion, they kind of were uncomfortable with dealing with with that in the same way they dealt with other things. And they just kind of, uh, kind of, like, closed the book on it and and turned it off and just kind of carried on as if nothing had happened, which I thought was a bit, um, yeah, not really good enough. Hm. So do you know how Josh coped? Uh, in that school environment? If he was the only one that was kind of out? Yeah. I don't know. Really, Um, because I never actually [00:17:00] talked to him. about it? Um, one on one. So I'm not too sure to be honest, were there any kind of support mechanisms in terms of? I mean, were there any queer support school groups or things like that that he could have gone to? Uh, not at the Not at the school we were at, um and And if there was, I don't think any of the boys would have gone to it. Um, although there's another school in Wellington that does a coed school that does have a support group, and, um, yeah, I think he I think he was quite heavily involved in that for a while. Yeah. Yeah. [00:17:30] And I think it's actually better to have that those kinds of support groups in a different school than, um, in your own school. I still don't think it's kind of a safe for young people to be out in school. Um, yeah, I. I think they're better to I mean, my Yeah, my personal opinion is it's better if they can just kind of keep it to themselves or to their close friends until they've kind of grown up a bit more. Um, it just seems it just seems from my experience, the [00:18:00] the the boys that I have seen that have come out quite, you know, like in third or fourth form or fifth form. They just tend to just tends to be their whole life. And they tend to kind of turn gay and start dressing differently and just becoming these stereotypes. I guess, as they're working out their identity and who they are, you know, they are who they are. And they're not that, I think, Yeah, they're not that gay. Like they they're still who they are. They just happen to, like, other guys. Um, but they just go down this. They seem to go [00:18:30] down this road of of just becoming this whole incredibly stereotypical gay person and kind of an an ali themselves from their parents and from their school and from their, um, peers, because they just you know, these guys have just suddenly turned really weird. Uh, yeah, it's just Yeah, I just didn't like seeing it. Maybe it's just a phase, and they'll kind of grow out of it, and then they'll they'll become less extreme as they get a bit older and realise. Actually, you know, they're still who they are. This is just an extra [00:19:00] an extra part of them that they've kind of grown up, and it's kind of woke. Woke them up. I wonder if the, uh, just mirroring what they see in terms of what they perceive as kind of gay culture. Um, what do you think? Uh, kids would see of gay culture. Now, when you know when they're looking at the TV or on the Internet and stuff What? How How would you think a a teenager would define themselves now if they were gay? [00:19:30] Yeah, I think. Unfortunately, we the media still keeps portraying these stereotypes. So we keep seeing, um, like, queer queer eye for a straight guy and go. And so we're not seeing, like, gay characters in, like, um, Shortland Street or Coronation Street or whatever, where you know their their rubbish collectors or their rugby players or their, um, you know, doctors or dentists or upstanding members of their community. We're still seeing these stereotype people [00:20:00] that are into sort of and not that there's anything wrong with it. But there's it's just a narrow view of of the gay world. So, um, that's something I certainly like to see change is to is to be able to show young people that there are there are gay and lesbian people of all walks of life doing all kinds of different things. Um, and not It's not just the narrow, um, image that's portrayed by the media, which still seems to be the case. Do you think you being out at that [00:20:30] single sex school? Uh, helped other students and teachers? I sort of hope so. And I guess part of the reason why I kept it sort of quite low key and never made a big deal out of it. Um, is that hopefully, I guess my The thing that I wanted to pass on to the the boys at that school was the fact that, yes, I'm gay. But I'm actually pretty much the same as everyone else. And there's only one year of my life, which is slightly different. Um, you [00:21:00] know, I'll go and watch the rugby games with everyone else. And so that went for this, you know, for the other staff and for the students, is that, um you know, being gay is just one small part of who you are, and it's just one small aspect of your life and it doesn't. Doesn't need to define exactly totally 100% who you are or what you can do. Yeah, it's just accepting for people accepting different of a whole different ways in a whole different form of different people. And this is my little [00:21:30] point of difference for the world. But other people have other little points of difference. You know, I could have been, um but I'm not, um, so it's just yeah, just I just think the more young people get experience to different kinds of people, the more tolerant they will be of different groups when they grow up. Because I'm hoping that you know the boys from my school. When they go into the world and meet other gay people, they won't be homophobic, and they won't be scared of them because they already know someone [00:22:00] who's gay. And so they realise it's actually no big deal, and they've got nothing to fear, nothing to worry about. And if any of those the boys at that school are gay I, I hope that I help them in some way. Do you think it would have been different if you had been a bit more kind of, um, out there in your kind of personality. Yeah, I guess so. Um, but that's just kind of not me. I mean, I'm actually kind of quite shy. And to me, being gay is quite it's actually quite of a personal thing to me, [00:22:30] because the first thing I think of when I see when I hear the word gay is kind of sick. So, you know, that's kind of a personal thing. And I, I don't I don't necessarily want to share that with a whole lot of people that I sort of don't really know. Um, you know, I I'd I'd more be more comfortable saying this. Like introducing my partner and saying, Hey, because that's got a whole different focus on it. This is my A loving relationship. A partner rather than this person happens to be gay. So, um, yeah, maybe it would be different if I was sort [00:23:00] of more out there and more, I guess, flamboyant, but But I'm not, um And if I was, then I probably wouldn't have got got this job in this particular school. II. I wonder that if they had known that I was gay. Um, before they employed me. Um, I wonder if I would have got the job. So do you think that you were discriminated against? I wonder. I just wonder, um, just because the senior management did seem [00:23:30] to be uncomfortable when I when it was disclosed in the classroom, and I was kind of encouraged just to kind of keep it quiet. So, um, yeah, I do wonder if if it did have any bearing on my employment. Yeah, but who knows? I mean, I certainly don't want don't want to be a victim and say, Oh, you know, I never got promoted because I'm gay and go down that line. But, um, yeah, who knows? II. I guess I'll never know when you did disclose in class. Uh, were [00:24:00] there any meetings between you and senior staff? Yeah, pretty much straight away. One of the DPS hauled me into the headmaster's office, and I had to confirm Yes, I was a homosexual. So and then and it happens quite quick. And if it ever happened again, I'd actually be quite outraged. I wasn't angry about it until afterwards, and if it ever happened again, I'd I would certainly question the need for a meeting. Um, so, Yeah, I Yeah, I just It was quite strange, but because [00:24:30] it was all rushed, it's like they kind of panicked. And maybe they were thinking something was gonna spread around the school. You know, um, maybe some disease was gonna spread, and they needed to contain the disease or something, but yeah, I was quite angry afterwards, but, um Hm. I guess I Yeah. Uh, but ultimately you You did spend eight years at this, um, this secondary school. So there must have been, uh, parts of the culture of that school that that kind of held you there. Oh, look, I love that [00:25:00] school. Um, I, you know, even though I'm gay, II, I really like and appreciate the tradition. The environment that is a single boys, um, school. It's It's got high levels of discipline. It's got amazing amounts of, um, tradition. The staff are well looked after Well supported by senior management. Um, the parents really support the school. The the students. The boys love being at school. They just don't always have the discipline to do what they know they should be doing [00:25:30] It's such a great, positive, happy environment to be in. We teachers can really feel that we're making a real difference to these young men, and we're holistically bringing these boys up together and helping turn them into men. And it's a fantastic school. And, um, after working in the boys that kind of an all boys environment, I think I think any any parents that have young boys, I would definitely definitely get them to consider sending them to a boy's school because [00:26:00] it really turns them into young men. It's a really supportive environment for them to work out what it means to be a man, and, um and it's it's Yeah, it's It's especially in this this age of where roles of men and women and masculinity and all that stuff is being redefined. Um, it's a really good environment for these young boys to grow up, you know, with some pretty strong boundaries, but also with the freedom to explore and find out, Um, find [00:26:30] out who they are. So I certainly love being in that environment, and, um, even though I'm gay, so don't sort of fit with the kind of teacher you'd expect to find in one those kinds of, uh, environment. I certainly wouldn't want to go to another school. That was kind of like new G and and kind of maybe, you know, on the surface, more accepting of difference and and all that kind of stuff because that's Yeah, that's that's kind of not the environment I like as much as as the traditional, um, school. Were [00:27:00] they supportive in terms of things like, say, sport and arts? Um, you know, thinking of, like, music or dance? Was it at an on an equal level? Yeah. One of the things that I was really surprised at with this boys school is that it didn't matter what the boys did, as long as they tried really hard and were successful at it. That was all that mattered. And so, while obviously that rugby plays a big part in rowing, um, equally So does, um, Drama and the the arts and cultural [00:27:30] activities, which had just as much emphasis on them as the sports. And that's one of the reasons why I was so proud to work there at the school, because, um, yeah, even though they had this tradition of rugby as everything. Um, actually giving things a go and being successful at anything was just as important. So the boys that did drama or debating or or croquet because we had a croquet club, um, or music. Or in the [00:28:00] in the school, choirs were considered just as manly as the boys that were in rowing and rugby and and, um, hockey. Looking at the syllabus. And we're talking from about 2005 to 2010. Was there any, um, gay or lesbian transgender? Um, information in the syllabus at all? Not really from what I could see, although that in the New Zealand curriculum it's the There's [00:28:30] certain things that need to be taught, but a a lot of the concepts the actual individual schools and teachers can actually choose the context. And so, like in the health, um, curriculum, for example, uh, there's there's, um, whole categories on sexuality and and, um, you know, discrimination and diversity. So if a teacher wanted to, um, to have units or, you know, lessons on homosexuality and heterosexuality, they [00:29:00] could, um but I would suspect that a lot sort of wouldn't, um, one of my, um a fellow um, a friend who's also a teacher who happens to be gay. He, um he's an English teacher. So he did a a gay themed novel, um, last year for his one of his classes. And, um, he said, Look, it just caused so much hassle. He's just not gonna do it again. Yeah, he had, you know, one. Just one parent complained. And that was enough just to make it just too hard [00:29:30] in terms of kind of sex education at the, um, single sex school that you were at What? What kind of, um, stuff was being taught? Uh, well, I did a I ran a, um uh, health education class for one year. But it was only one period a week, and it was pretty loose in the content. So So I put a bit more emphasis into sexuality than probably other teachers did. And and, um, because we had the freedom to do that. But I think generally it's it's sort of [00:30:00] just glossed over quite quickly. Um, I think the only time it really comes up is is when they're looking at SD. I you know, and they'll talk about HIV. And that might come up, then, um, but otherwise I think it's kind of yeah, glossed over pretty quickly. I suspect when you say glossed over, Is that because the teachers are embarrassed or the schools embarrassed or the students are embarrassed? Yeah, I think Possibly a a combination of all three. I think the thing I found hardest with teaching the health class was especially [00:30:30] when we did like the drug and alcohol unit, too. Was teaching content of, you know of that kind of subject matter without having any values, because I thought my role was just to present the information and let the students make up their mind. But actually, in reality, I actually found it very difficult to present the information without putting my own spin on it. Because obviously there's some things I think you know. These boys should and shouldn't do. So And I found it very tricky to teach. And because even just by talking [00:31:00] about things like homosexuality in the classroom, you're kind of giving the impression it's OK, which, you know, I think is a good thing. But for a teacher that wasn't too totally comfortable with that, um, I guess that would be quite tricky. And because a lot of it is up to the individual teacher and what the teacher is happy and comfortable doing, it may or may not be discussed in terms of, uh, support for yourself as a teacher who's gay. Uh, do you have any kind of network [00:31:30] of of fellow teachers? Uh, I think because teaching is a job where we're an adult and it's unusual in the way that we're an adult, but we don't spend much of our work time with other adults. And so we tend to get a lot of support from, um, our colleagues, perhaps more in this job than other jobs, like after school or at lunchtime or interval. Um, so we Yeah, as as as a generalisation, teachers have a, you know, a close, um, supportive network. [00:32:00] Um, anyway, and so I certainly did, as most teachers do. So, um, I, my close friends who were teachers and colleagues that, you know, I talked to them while I was having problems with certain kids or had other issues that were going on. So we would just Yeah, sit down and have a chat about it, and you realise that Oh, it's quite normal to for these things to happen. And this is here are some good strategies to deal with it, Um, in the PPT a that they there's a gay I can't remember [00:32:30] what it's called. There's a gay teachers network. Um, but once again, because we're such a small minority group, I went to one meeting a one nationwide meeting and there was maybe 10 people there and I was the only guy. So, um, I think if there are many male gay teachers out there, they're they're sort of quite closeted. It's my impression or aren't out there seeking sort of to meet others for support. How do you find that? Yeah, it's quite [00:33:00] strange because it would be nice to just, um, be able to network with other gay teachers to talk about some of the issues that you know that we face. Um, but I guess it's just part and parcel of being a minority group is there's actually not that many of us around to you. What would be some of the the key things that you face? I think some of the key, um, things that I'd face as a gay teacher would be um, I guess my personal safety, um, [00:33:30] name calling or bullying that's directed at me That maybe the senior management don't want to deal with. Uh, I guess that's that's and just yeah, just being acknowledged that I'm OK, I guess. And just not being discriminated against when going for jobs in different schools. Um, because teaching is is kind of a small network. And so, especially in the subject that I teach, so everyone kind of knows everybody. So, um, yeah, people at my new school, they knew I was gay before I did because [00:34:00] I haven't told them yet. They know. So, people. Yeah. People obviously talk. Um, so, yeah, I just hope that that's my My biggest fear is that, um, I would be discriminated against and judged, um, judged by my sexuality rather than, um, you know, the quality of my teaching, which Yeah, that's my biggest fear. I think that's the biggest, um, thing that gay people are faced with. Hm? Have you ever been bullied? Oh, I had [00:34:30] what I had fag or faggot scratched into the my classroom door one day with I could send a kid out for doing something and he obviously got quite annoyed, so he he he had a He must have had a knife or something on him, so he scratched faggot into the door. Um And so the next morning, when I saw it, um, I went to see the DP to, you know, to try and organise getting that taken off quite quickly, as you can appreciate. And his response to me is is it true? [00:35:00] Um, which I was kind of taken aback by? Um, yeah, I just wanted it kind of taken off the door. Yeah, that's quite shocking. And so what did you say to that? I can't honestly remember. Yeah, I can't remember. I think I was in a rush and I was just so focused on. I don't want my parent one class to see that today, even though they knew I was gay. Um, I just wanted I just want the maintenance [00:35:30] guy to come and and, um to, you know, to fix the door up. Um, in the end, the maintenance guy ended up being quite a good friend of mine. And, um, yeah, he was been really good because because I quite often at lunch time, I'd go and sit in in their in their work sheet with all the other, um, you know, the workmen and people that they'd have coming in and we'd be chatting away at stuff, and and, um, every now and then, you know, kind of a joke would come up. Um, but it was It was one of those jokes where they knew and I knew, [00:36:00] and they were saying It's OK, and I was letting them know it was OK. So it was a good environment to be in, like they Yeah, the the staff just didn't right down to the maintenance guys. They, um they they judge people for who we were and what we did not, um, not certain things about our character and personality that we couldn't change. So, yeah, it was a Yeah, that was, um yeah, they were great mates. Hm. If you had one wish for, um, bettering the [00:36:30] kind of education system for gay and lesbians both as students and as teachers, Uh, what would that be? I would hope my wish would be that principals and headmasters, um, willingly accept that there are gay people and lesbian people in in their schools and they are OK with helping making this minority group less invisible in whatever way, shape or form. That meant in the same way that they are highly supportive [00:37:00] of other minority groups being less invisible and in the same way that they help these other groups from celebrating who they are. I just wish they would do it for people like me as well. I think I think the the thing that I appreciate the most and the the value I've had back from being a teacher so often is I've probably spent maybe the last 10 years wondering to myself, Am I a decent [00:37:30] bloke? You know, am I a real man? You know what is masculinity? And by having the opportunity and privilege to work in a in a boy's school, it's really helped me figure those, um, questions out for myself. Um, which is Yes, I am a man. I am masculine and you know I am OK, so there's certainly been a lot of pay, a personal payback for me for taking that kind of the the I guess the harder road [00:38:00] of, you know, being gay in a boys school when I could have gone to, You know, like a new school where, you know, tolerance and diversity was just kind of up there. Um, yeah, I I've definitely had a lot of personal reward from, um from that amazing experience of, um, being part of the community, that is is that is a boys school. Um, yeah, it was, um it it was a great 10 years.

IRN: 149
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/julz_darroch_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003874
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089168
TITLE: Julz Darroch profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Julz Darroch
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; Julz Darroch; Wellington; employment; family; fitness; health; lesbian; sport; transcript online
DATE: 6 October 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Julz Darroch talks about exercise and wellness.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name is Jules. Derek. I am a gay woman. I have been Wellington born and bred. I grew up in Newlands, which was a a fairly small dormitory suburb. Um, 1972 was the year I was born. I think I was very lucky in that. My housewife mother, um, was raising three daughters. I was a middle child and I have a recollection of her at some stage in my childhood somehow, [00:00:30] and she swears as an adult, she has no concept that I was gay, but actually letting us know that to be unmarried, not have Children or to be lesbian was not a bad thing. Um, so that was how I grew up. So while it was in AAA conservative suburb, um, I always had that feminist awareness, which just meant I had the groundwork [00:01:00] to be me, no matter what that was. Where do you think that came from When your mother was saying that she had her has her own issues of being, um, an only child raised very quietly, Um, and she was very. Although she is identifies as straight, um, she's not such a fan of, uh, the oppression of men She's a good old fashioned, um, feminist. Um so I think [00:01:30] she was trying to undo the damage that had been done to her by just giving us options. And in fact, I was married to a man and I had two Children. And the hardest thing that I've ever had to do was tell her that I had got married because that would be the greatest disappointment I felt at that time. So she went the opposite way. You either carry on what your parents do, or you you do the opposite. Meanwhile, [00:02:00] living a very conservative, you know, middle class New Zealand existence. So can you recall as a child how you felt when you heard something like that? Um, no, I can't. I only remember as an A as an adult in context. Um, I remember that she did consciousness raising in the seventies and and rebirthing and women's groups and and all that sort of stuff. So I think it was just something that was always part of our lives. There [00:02:30] was the Sheila Kissinger books and the feminist books around. So it was just part of the landscape, Um, rather than than one moment. So I don't think I ever, um, knew what was going on until a little bit later. Probably intermediate. Um, we were told, because we were in Newlands, we were told we had to go to Newlands. That brought in zoning. Um, and my mother took on the school board to send us to Wellington girls. Not because [00:03:00] she wanted us to go to Wellington girls, but because she wanted to get us out of Newlands. So you can see a little phobia there that she had of us turning into, uh, middle aged housewives stuck in the suburbs like she was the enders. Um, so I guess I I think her mission was to prevent the evil that she perceived had happened to her, um, happening to her daughters, which is quite interesting. She's [00:03:30] still there. She's still married and living in the suburbs, but we're not, um, so from there I went to Wellington girls and, um, got on with my life. Um, I have never been so far as fitness goes, I have always been a complete couch potato. Um, so went off and went to college. Um, wanted to be a journalist or a writer. Interestingly enough, which comes back [00:04:00] later in the story, um, and then just left school and did a whole lot of odd jobs. I had a couple of casual relationships with women, um, and then ended up with, uh, quite early 18. I met my husband. Um, so we got married when I was 23 and had two Children who are now 12 and 10. He knew I was, um, bisexual or gay or not [00:04:30] straight. Um, while I was with him, I identified very much as his partner. Um, I didn't like the idea of straight. Um, but a respect to him was that essentially I was his monogamous partner. So, um, that was my identity. Can I just take you back just a wee bit? Because when you're going through college, that would have been over the period of the homosexual [00:05:00] law reform in the mid eighties in New Zealand. Can you recall anything from that period in terms of kind of the homosexual law reform? Um, I think it was It was something that I was aware of because I while my mother, um, was doing housewife feminism. Um, lesbian feminism was very much part of that. So there would have been a crossover. Um, I do remember being surprised, Um, that it was illegal. It just had never [00:05:30] occurred to me that it was It's There were gay people. Um, and I very odd. They didn't seem to be. We didn't seem to be wrong. Um, my parents never told me it was illegal. It was just It never occurred to me, so I was quite surprised. Um, it was very much I, I think from the the that pre adolescent girl it it seemed like a very man thing. [00:06:00] Older men, I think, um, older now probably though, you know, all of 25 or 30 but from, you know, age 10. Um, so that was my experience of that. When did you first start realising that that you liked women? Uh, hindsight is a wonderful thing. Um, I saw Greece when I was four, and I fell in love with Rizzo and I only it was actually only about three years ago that I saw [00:06:30] her in a in a programme and went, Oh, my goodness. I've always really respected Stockard Channing, great actress. And just for some reason, I was just watching her and when I was five. I don't think we were because we weren't assigned once again being one of three daughters. Um, there were no boys in our family except for my very quiet father. Um, so gender roles weren't huge, so I don't think I ever had to consciously [00:07:00] make that it was never presented as a as a choice. Um, not because the choice was you had to be straight, but I think it was just fairly fluid. Um, and at 17, um, that was 15 and 17 2. Um, I was kicking over the traces a little bit. Um, I had a big old you know, blue Mohawk and, um, studs everywhere. So that [00:07:30] group of people were fairly fluid. Anyway, um, so it wasn't like I was really even making a choice at that stage. Um, it was just part of, um, people you went out with and slept with. So around that time, how were those fluid people seen in the kind of wider society? Um, probably it's reasonably rough. Although we were all well [00:08:00] behaved middle age, we were on the edge, um, of little goths and punk rockers. Try hards and our little first flat sort of thing. So it was all very harmless. Um, I hate to think what? It appeared from the outside. In fact, my mother used to get terrible grief in Newlands. Um, because she let her daughter walk around like that. Um, she was of the opinion that really your core values weren't determined by the colour of your hair. Um, so I [00:08:30] as a teenager, I don't think I really saw the world from any position other than my own. Um, and we just did what we did. Um, and that was fine. And then I met my husband, and it was really easy, even at the time. Um, knowing that and I actually think there are probably a lot of adults in my life who went fuel. Oh, she's got herself a man. [00:09:00] She's straight. So maybe they they noticed something that I hadn't told them. Um, and just went Oh, that's nice. She's got herself a nice man. We can all breathe a sigh of relief. Um, and then we had we had babies and I left him when I was 30. Um, because I decided I It wasn't a terribly unhappy marriage at all. um, but I just decided [00:09:30] I didn't want to face never being with another woman. And it was a monogamous relationship, and I didn't want to change that. So for me, it was all or nothing, so I chose nothing. I also had a three year old and a four year old. Um, and I. I think the ultimate decision was based on that I would be raising these Children into adulthood. And [00:10:00] if I couldn't make a choice, that wasn't easy. Then how was I going to teach them to make the same choice if they needed to? Um, they may be gay. They may make choices that society doesn't like, whatever they are. Um, and as the parent, I would be going You should do what makes you happy. Um, if I'd stayed in a marriage, then I would be contradicting that, [00:10:30] and I couldn't. I couldn't do that to my Children. I had to be honest, so I left. Um, lucky enough, I had the most awesome, um, husband who, while was devastated that I was leaving him, actually had No, uh, he said I was leaving him. It didn't really matter who I left him for. whether I left him for men or women. Um, he knew, um, my history, Um, so [00:11:00] that's never been an issue. Never been an issue with the kids as well. Um, so that I think speaking to other women who have left partners, um, and become gay. I think that's a battle I never had to fight, which is brilliant. When? When you look back, Do you wish you had explored the kind of lesbian side more before you got into marriage? Um, no. Too much Gained. Far too much gained. Um, I've [00:11:30] got kids. Um, and my ex-husband is the the dearest person in my life. Um, I've had partners since him, Um, who I would have thought I would end up with the same relationship with them as I did, but it it's different. Um, would my life have been easier? Possibly, Um, maybe I wouldn't have got depressed. Or maybe I wouldn't have. Um [00:12:00] maybe I could have been stronger if you had identified. Um, but I think water under the bridge you just got to go with with what happened. Um, and when it became strong enough that I needed to go back and re examine it. Um, I did. So that was the important thing. I think if I'd stayed there, um, that would have been different. That would have been a regret. [00:12:30] But when I needed to investigate it, I did the honest thing. And, um, yeah, so No, no, Absolutely not. At secondary school. Can you recall any Were Were there any out lesbians or gay people? Um, no, there was the, um I had an English teacher, actually who, [00:13:00] um claimed that she'd gone through a period of her life being a misogynist, which she claimed to be the female equivalent of a misogynist. Um, so, uh, that would be interesting to see where she came. And I know I do recall in my sixth form years, she couldn't come to a production because she was going on a date. Um, and I remember the disgust we all had that she chose her. So she was obviously straight at that point. But maybe not. Um [00:13:30] uh, so no, um, statistics say, in a school of 1000 girls that there was probably one or two. Um, I know now that in my year, which would have been 100 and 20 girls I was friends with two other gay women. Now, um, [00:14:00] wouldn't have picked it at the time. Um, which makes me think maybe there was some others. Definitely some others. Um, no, not even not even mentioned. I don't think it really even existed. Is a is a subject? No, it's interesting. As a term you use gay women. How would you identify yourself? Um, lesbian [00:14:30] or gay woman? Um, I think lesbian is a very female term. Whereas gay is an umbrella term for a male and female community, so it's more inclusive. Um, so lesbian is is the female experience. Gay is the the universal experience, so I'm quite comfortable with with either. What about words like queer? Um, yeah, Absolutely. I think that's more modern for me. That's like a cool, new modern word. Um, So, [00:15:00] yes, I use that and feel particularly hip, you know, like a 20 year old. Um, like the queer youth. Um, so quite comfortable with that, um, and all the other terms, um, thank you to the L word. I think giving us all these special terms and probably queer folk before that, um, I'm not a I don't think any of the tunes. Words don't really worry me. Um, so far as what we call ourselves. Um, [00:15:30] so you're a gay woman or lesbian? Interesting. You used to talk about the L word as a as a TV series. I'm wondering, you know, growing up. Can you recall anything gay, lesbian on TV or in the media? Um, no, not at all, I think. Probably like all New Zealand women. They were the top twins. Um, and you've got, uh the interesting thing is about TV and things like [00:16:00] that that while there were no gay role models in my childhood, there were an abundance of, um, strong, unattached women. Um, so there were There was Laverne and Shirley. Um, I'm thinking of another one. Mary. So there were actually these asexuals strong female friendships. [00:16:30] Um, that when you think about them, the men were, um I don't think they They went on dates with men, but they weren't part of the story, and they had the two male friends as well. Um, so not specifically gay at all, but strong independent women, which I think is, is in the absence of actual role models. Um was quite helpful. [00:17:00] What was it like going to an all girls school? Um, I loved it. It was great. Um, I had been raised in a household with three women and, um, had been nuance was not an exciting experience for me as a, um, growing up. Um, I had a a distrust for and I think I've always been a chameleon. Um, the fact that you you you got to play centre at three years old, and then [00:17:30] you go to school with the same people at five. And then you got to intermediate with the same people and some more people. And then you go to college, um, with the same people. And that can put you very much in a box. Um, so to me, the girls school was an an escape. I don't think I had an option of going to a coed school unless I went to Newlands College. Um, I found a really, really positive, empowering experience just because all the resources and everything could [00:18:00] be women centred. Um, which worked for me. My mother, interestingly enough, went to Wellington girls. Um, however, many years earlier, uh, left the minute she could in school. She'd never seen her daughters there ever. What she did in the end. Um, but no II. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Do you know why she didn't want to send you? Um, because she had a hideous experience and thought it was outdated, [00:18:30] and she just didn't enjoy school. Um, so didn't want us to be repeating the experience that she had, Um, which I think I have to give her huge credit for, um, because despite spending most of our childhood saying she'd never send us to that school, we then were allowed to go. Actually, no, we've decided, and each of us decided to go there, and she let us. I don't know if I'd be sorry, [00:19:00] Um, accommodating to my Children these days if they don't get an option. Um, so yeah, I. I mean, I've always enjoyed I've always enjoyed the company of women. Um, so for me, it just, uh, took away the, um not and I don't actually think it's boys I had an issue with. I think it was the hierarchy, um, in Newlands College at the time, Um was very sporting, [00:19:30] Um, and very, um, and I. I think I had a distrust of that, um that they valued, um, sportiness And, um, keeping, um, girls under control. So I just wanted to escape from that. So anything else was better than that. Whether it's true or not at the time. Or that was my perception, that would be interesting to go back. So, as a teenager, did you ever have, like, [00:20:00] a kind of a coming out experience or a realisation or coming out to parents? I didn't come out to my parents at all. Um, it wasn't it just It's not that I was in. I think I was, um my parents weren't part of my life. Um, and it actually wasn't a big deal. It wasn't like this great moment that I'd slept with a woman and it wasn't a It wasn't an amazing discovery. It was just part of the it. It wasn't [00:20:30] an issue. It just I. I didn't need to come. I think probably I would have come out. But then the husband sort of negated the or the the partner at 18. Um, really negated the need to do that. Um, so I didn't. And it wasn't until I left my husband, um when I decided I should really come out. That seemed like the appropriate thing to do. Um, so I rang my family and said that I was [00:21:00] leaving my husband and I wouldn't be with another man. Then my next partner would be a woman, and they were like, Oh, that's nice to hear my mother. Well, you can't do anything to horrify my mother. Um, so even that was very low key. Um, so they just there wasn't I didn't have to do the great coming out. Um, although, um, it's not You don't come out once, do you? You come out every time someone presumes [00:21:30] you've got a a male or is a woman with Children. Um, there is an assumption that therefore, you must be straight because you've got Children and because people just don't think beyond that. Um, so coming out is something you have to do quite a lot. But no, no. One great moment. Although I did ring them just so I could actually tell my parents it was a great moment. Even if they didn't respond with the, you know, [00:22:00] wringing of hands and crying that one would have, you know, imagined it was all very low. key. So did you find it confusing when you fell in love with your husband? Um, no. I. I don't know whether I'd actually made a decision. Um, on whether I was I don't think I'd gone as far as going. I was gay or straight. Um, the presumption is you're straight I. I think in [00:22:30] the world, the presumption is you're straight until you're otherwise. Um and I don't think I went as far as that. Um, I just fell in love with him. Um, he's AAA gentle. He was, in fact, in some ways, a lot more. A lot less manly than my first, um, partner after him. Ironic. Um, so, no, it didn't surprise me at all. Um, I think it was a little bit comfortable, I think. Probably at at 19. Um, at 20 [00:23:00] I. I could see the world. The world is definitely a little bit easier as a straight woman, or it's been seen as a straight woman. Um, in my journey through, um, having a male husband and then, you know, safely a year after you get married having, um, two very safe Children, um, the world really likes it. It's a really really comfortable place to be, um, safely married with [00:23:30] with lovely babies. The world loves it. Um, you don't have to explain yourself. Um, you don't have to people just as soon as you mentioned you've got a husband and there's a cute baby there you're taken care of. I guess they can put you in a box, and then they trust you and and you're safe and not going to be up to anything deviant or illegal. Who knows what they think, But it is. It's it's very comfortable. Um, and I think I probably enjoyed that to an extent. Um, [00:24:00] especially, um, when you're not as confident in yourself, it just means, you know, that no one's going to be asking the hard questions. That must be a really fascinating place to be where you can actually see both sides of the coin very much. So. Yeah, it it's quite interesting. It's quite, um, it's It's disappointing in a way, Um, but it's also it's interesting how it's such a fight [00:24:30] to be visible as a gay person. Um, that you, it it can be quite lonely. I think, um, and I've found I've had periods of my life. Um, I've actually always been partnered, but having a partner who travels away, um, and I imagine it's the same for, um, if you're single for a long time that your straightness is never questioned and it's, um, affirmed in everything [00:25:00] you see, Um, whereas you can quite happily just disappear as a gay person, um, it's really easy to disappear. Um, depending on where you work, you've got to fight to, to have people around you and experiences. It's not like you can turn the TV on and see gay characters or walk down the street and have a chat to the woman in the dairy. Um, about the gay experience. So, um, I can see it would be it could be quite lonely. [00:25:30] Um, whereas when you are straight, whether your your husband or partner is there, you're always visible. Your your choices are always being confirmed by everything around you. Um, so it's a more conscious way of living. Um, I like it. I like it because it's more conscious because you have to. You yourself have to be affirming your choices, which I think is something that all of us should be doing on a more regular [00:26:00] basis. You mentioned very briefly before About depression. Where does that come into your story? Um, my the great unanswered question is whether it's, um, something genetic or, um, situational. Um, I have always struggled. I've never identified it because, um, I, you know, I was kill a mother with the husband and two Children, [00:26:30] and we don't go there, you know, too busy baking cakes. Um, in my thirties, um, it came to a head, Um, So I sought, um, help for that. Um, I would say that a lot of my feelings of depression are probably based on feeling invisible. And then if you go back to what I've just said actually about being invisible, that that's probably [00:27:00] got a lot to do with that. And maybe in hindsight, um, being married and choosing that life didn't necessarily assist in the long term. My mental health. Um, having said that, it was before I got married that I was depressed, and I still suffer from it now. Um, so I guess it's just part of who I am. Um, So I function just occasionally I elect not to get out of bed. Basically. [00:27:30] Did you know at the time. Like when you're 17 or 18. Did you name? Could you name what? It was? Depression? Um, no. Um, I've always had a sadness at times in my life. Um, I think because my mother suffered from postnatal depression when I was five, and had a had a huge battle her life. I don't think it's something I ever [00:28:00] chose to explore, because once you start exploring it, you might I might have identified something that was, um, the same in me that was in my mother. So I would just be sad sometimes, Um, and more sad, other times and not sad at all and completely manic at other times. Luckily, I don't I I fall quite nicely [00:28:30] in in the middle of the spectrum. Um, so I don't ever get so down that I can't live, and I don't ever get so high. Um, that I'm jumping off buildings, so it's manageable. Um, and I live very much consciously a life that looks after who I am. Um, so I don't work full time, and I just look after myself [00:29:00] and does this time with your kind of experience with fitness and and and kind of getting active. Um, later on, um, I. I still question now how on earth I ended up, um, in fitness. It it makes sense to me now, 17 years later, Um, but at the time, me being a perky jump up and down aerobics instructor was a complete antithesis of who I thought I was. Um, so I just got into it because, um, it was a great [00:29:30] way of getting thin and jumping up and down in front of other people, um, over the past few years, probably only in the last, um, partly after having kids, Um, in the last five or six years, realising that, um, fit fitness is a funny word. Exercise and wellness, um, is a whole lot more, um, holistic, but also [00:30:00] that the fitness industry has a lot to offer, but it's got huge shortfalls. Um, and because I wasn't I'm not attached to a brand or have, um, any great aspirations, um, to get incredibly successful within a company. I've had the opportunity to be able to, um, study and investigate depression [00:30:30] and, um, exercise and things like that that you wouldn't necessarily get rich off. Um, so yes, That is very much where my interest has come. Um, and I also work with, um I call it gay fitness emergencies. Um, someone, very interestingly the other day, said it's really a difference between gay and straight people and fitness, and the answer is absolutely not, but, um, just working on that visibility. Um, So these days, I do, [00:31:00] um, a combination. I train behind the scenes. I train up people who work in fitness, um, instructors and, uh, personal trainers. Just putting in my version that the world is not, um, square. It's not one shape. Um, and then the other half I work, um, with in community working with, um, what I call everyday people, which, uh, would be, [00:31:30] um, LGBT, uh, depressed people, overweight people, non exercises. Um, my assumption, being anyone who's perky and jumping up and down in the gym is actually the minority. Um, so everyone the conventional fitness industry doesn't work with or identify with. I'm just going to ask you to just rewind a wee bit, because I'm interested that, uh, earlier on you were saying that you're a bit of a couch potato kind of going through school. [00:32:00] What happened to suddenly push you into fitness. I mean, was it because you wanted to do the kind of body? Beautiful thing? Was it to get exercise? What was the moment? Where you suddenly thought I want to. I need to get into fitness. Um, I think it probably was as a way of, um it it was an aesthetic thing. Um, I started off because, of course, I couldn't have gone out in public. Um, because I was very shy. Um, in those days, I got the [00:32:30] old, um, Jane Fonda. And it was Jane Fonda. Um, yeah, it was, um I'm that old, um, and did it in my lounge, actually, um, and then decided that I would join a gym and do some classes there, Um, and then decided that I might train up as an aerobics instructor. So it started off very much. Um, from there, I didn't have a, um a strong career. I was doing odd jobs, so it was like, Oh, well, maybe I could make some money [00:33:00] out of this. Um, as you discover soon after starting to teach aerobics, as we called it in those days that, um, your body actually can't keep up with doing that for a living, So I thought, Well, I'm in this fitness thing. I may as well go and train and become a, um they didn't even have personal trainers in those days. Um, so it grew from there, um, and then worked. I've worked. Always worked in commercial what I call commercial fitness, Um, which [00:33:30] is in in membership gyms, um, and then ended up, um, working through there and ended up managing and owning a club. So I went right through, so I eventually got my nice, real job. I'm sitting behind a desk, as you do when you work in fitness. Um, so it was, uh I fell into it, I think, by accident, because I wanted to get fit, and then it just grew from there. Is the [00:34:00] fitness industry in In your experience, is it kind of, uh uh, open, liberal conservative? I think it's I would say it's actually really conservative. Um, I think there are, uh I wouldn't say it's at all homophobic or anything like that. I just think as a commercial industry, a lot of, [00:34:30] um, businesses, be they people or, uh, big gyms are focusing on the masses. And I think there is a definite belief that if you specialise too much that you're cutting off as soon as you advertise yourself as being the gym for a certain type of person, then everyone who's not that certain type of person will obviously, you know, run a mile and and never come in. So I think there's a conservative [00:35:00] there, Um, probably like every other industry. Um, but, yeah, I see it as as quite conservative. Um, there's not a lot of people, um, taking on great political, um, acts or or anything like that. It's a very commercial industry, I think, um, and with personal trainers and things like that, it's very much you haven't got people signed up for the rest of [00:35:30] their life. Um, people don't need gym memberships. They don't need personal trainers in the same way that they need food, um, or to pay the rent. Um, so it's it's commercial and people very much being the one size fits all that's generalising, but yeah, quite conservative. I'm a stranger. I'm very odd. I'm a freak in my industry. Over [00:36:00] the time that you've been working in fitness, have you seen any change in attitude towards, um, the way that both men and women perceive their own bodies. I'm thinking that, you know, over the last 20 or so years there, it seems to be that the imperative for having a beautiful body has has grown more and more. What are your thoughts on that very much. The interesting thing is, and I and I've been in fitness for 18 years is that [00:36:30] it's become, and that contradicts what I've said before. But, um, it's actually become more embracing of. It's like that. The body beautiful has become more, um, more invasive. But on the other side, the, um, less fit and I've always worked in in women's fitness. Um, 15 years ago, you would never we do weights [00:37:00] and measures. Anyone over sort of 100 kg wouldn't be anywhere near a gym, whereas now there are people who are very injured. Um, very overweight, um, now coming into gyms. So I think it's gone in both directions. Um, the bodybuilding, um, side of things has reduced. I think every second person was a bodybuilder 20 years ago. Um and that's that's gone. [00:37:30] But I think it's just been replaced by something a little bit different. It's just a different aesthetic, Um, so that the the the concept of perfection has got harder to attain to. But the people at the other end being fed into the machine are, um, a lot more diverse. Um, so far as as weight and, um, injury and things like that. Do you think there's more [00:38:00] pressure on queer people to, uh, go to gyms and to to go for that, that body beautiful image nowadays, I think it's a um, yes, I would. I, um, work quite a bit with gay men, and I it seems to be more. It seems to be stronger with gay men. Um, it's the perfect but very much the tightest. Little to, [00:38:30] um And I think so. I think Yes, it is. There is that perfection. Um, the interesting thing about the media. So that's mean. The interesting thing about the media is that we as a general population haven't necessarily changed. Um, but the images we're getting, um, presented have, so I don't think I think it's it's probably not just a gay thing. [00:39:00] Um, and that's that's I think gay men are probably more, um, have got more pressure than straight men. I would say, definitely, um, women are a little bit different. I think there's more, um, gender fluid. So for every woman that's trying to be androgynous, there's equally women who are trying to be curvy. Um, so it's There's not 11 choice of perfection, so you can choose between, [00:39:30] you know, two. but it's got It's got more difficult if you think about in the eighties. If you think of, um, for women, if you think of of Cindy Crawford or even, um, Arnold Schwarzenegger or that, uh, uh, that when you look at pictures of them now how flawed they are compared to today's standards, [00:40:00] Um, how much heavier women were allowed to be, how less toned. Whereas if you compare to the images now, um, so it is, I think, yes, it is a lot harder. Um, I don't necessarily think that's all a gay thing. I think that's a a general population thing. Um, for women especially. I think there's probably [00:40:30] a fair bit of politics in my experiences, obviously, as a woman behind the women's movement that, um, there is a percentage of, um, feminist lesbian women who part of their self identity is being against all those images. So I think that's quite a strong thing coming through. Um, not all groups. So I think for women [00:41:00] that counterbalances that So as a fitness instructor, when somebody comes to you and says I want to look like that, um, what are your thoughts in terms of do do you push them into that image, or do you say no, you you you need to have the confidence of being yourself Or, um, I work very much. Um, if someone comes to me and says they want a particular body type, um, I would tend to actually send them to another trainer. Um, because I don't work full time. Um, And my, um, [00:41:30] where I work best is with people who can't or aren't interested in attaining perfection. There are, uh, a thousands of personal trainers and people working in fitness who can tell you to exercise more and eat less and give you perfection. Um, so if I do get a person who would like to who has an image in mind, um, then I tend to actually talk them through What? The reality of that is [00:42:00] that yes, it is attainable. But I think we're not taught as general people. Actually, what the investment and the cost is of that perfection that in order to, um, be the size, for example, in the media of the the size, you know, the size zero women, actually, how many calories, how much you eat to actually maintain that figure and how much exercise you have to do. [00:42:30] Um, and that yes, it's possible. But what you're signing up for because I think we get told a lot that all we have to do is eat less and exercise more, and we will attain perfection. Um, and the reality is, um, that you are trading potentially for a lot of the the locks, especially the the very, um, lean lock and also the the the big muscle lock that you're trading a fair bit of health, [00:43:00] um, to get that perfection when your, um, your business is being famous. Um, and you're making large quantities out of mo uh, making movies and being in the media. Then that's a fair trade. You know, stop eating and and make hundreds of thousands of dollars. That's a perfectly reasonable choice to make, um, for the average person. It's a question of whether it's worth the investment. Um, it's like all blacks, it's [00:43:30] and and high level sports people. Um their bodies generally are ruined by being competitive sports people. But that's OK, because you get paid, uh, a good amount of money. And you can pay for the surgery later. Yes. If you're not getting that pay packet, then perhaps, you know, do a cost benefit analysis of what osteoporosis is gonna cost you, or knee reconstructions and things like that. [00:44:00] Um, I'm a bit of a realist when it comes to this sort of stuff. Sure you can have it. Sure. You can look like Cameron Diaz. Just give up food. I'm wondering if we could just cover off. If, um, you had some advice for queer people, and maybe we should break it into age groups. So, like, kind of young, middle age and older people who have never done a lot of exercise before. Um, what would be the advice that you would [00:44:30] you would kind of impart? Um, I think for all age groups, um, for everyone is that when you're not exercising and you start exercising. It feels like crap. Um, and that's not because you're completely feeble and unfit. That's just because that's what happens when you exercise. Um, I think once again, we get fed those lines that, you know, you just run around the block five times, um, we run around the block, you know, half a block, and it feels [00:45:00] so terrible. Um, so just expect that it's not necessarily easy. That doesn't mean it's not worth it. Um, so far as, um, aesthetics and looking at the perfect body, Um, that what is marketed as perfection is can be quite difficult. Um, and that our brains are really, really smart. Um, smart things [00:45:30] that work independently, um, and can affect the way we see ourselves. Um, with media, we could see, um, people that look like us, they could be exactly us. And we would, um, judge them less harshly than we would ourselves. Um, and I think with, uh, depending with gender identity, Um, as well as sexuality. [00:46:00] Um, I think there's a whole new a whole different, um, set of standards, um, that that we aspire to and just being a little bit realistic about it. And it's about improving your life rather than, um, looking perfect. Um, exercise on its own is it's good fun. But if you're only doing it to look perfect, that's the only motivation. It's really difficult to keep it up [00:46:30] in your experience. Uh, why do people do it? What? What What are the main motivations? Um, I think people, most people start exercising. Um, if they're not starting young for sporting reasons or it's been a natural part of their life, um, it's to make up for an inadequacy in themselves. Um, be that, um, too wobbly, Too skinny, too fat, Um, too red in the face when they walk up the stairs. Um, [00:47:00] people stay exercising because it, um, contributes positively to their lives. Um, the trouble is, is that being in a head space of starting to exercise because of an an an an adequacy in yourself is not a good motivator to keep going? Um, I think that's one of the biggest shames of our, um the fitness industry is [00:47:30] that it is based on or has been based on people feeling bad about themselves and having to fix it. Um, when really we should be focusing on how good we are, and therefore we deserve to live a little bit longer and have an easier life by exercising. So I think it's a little bit mixed up like that. Um, that's something I work in with a lot myself. I work with Home programme. People who [00:48:00] aren't confident wouldn't set foot one exercise outside, but they'll do it in their own homes because they're not confident enough they don't deserve to go to gym. Um, and I think that's a huge shame that that that's how we've set ourselves up. Um, so the way you start is not necessarily the way to to continue. So you were managing a gym, but now you're doing kind of personal training. So what? What happened there? Um, [00:48:30] I ended up behind a desk doing purely, um, office work. Um, which was not that much fun. Um, I was part of owner of a business, and I got, um, another person, um, in to help me out, and this person made it more and more difficult for me to, um, exist in the workplace. Basically, my options of remaining in the business became more [00:49:00] and more limited. Um, it came to a head when I got offered a, um, an amazing opportunity, um, which was based in part on, um, my personality. My, uh they identified it as my quirkiness because I did ask, Why have I got this thing? We think you're really quirky. Um, and, uh, this woman took me aside and suggested very firmly, um, that I [00:49:30] was not a good role model. My way of being was, um, not appropriate. Um, that I represented something other than what I should, uh, should represent, um, it became very clear that she had issues with my sexuality. Um, not something I'd actually ever um, come across that directly. Um, I think we kind of can [00:50:00] live in a bubble and that a lot of people who are homophobic will stay out of our way. Um, which is quite nice, actually. Um, so, um, I had to, um, make some decisions to save myself. Um, that was the defining moment, um, that essentially, um apparently, people were, um, members were fairly disgusted about [00:50:30] my, um, sexuality. And people have been making comments, and I was, I don't know, I had a funny haircut. That was inappropriate. And apparently, tattoos are are not a good representative. Um um, I had to question her at the time, because I I did ask her what it was about a, uh, a 35 year old woman with, uh, two young Children. That wasn't a good what was not average about that. Um, but it did turn out. It was my, um, sexuality. [00:51:00] Um, I chose not to to call I. I did call her on it. Um, I chose not to, um, take on a legal battle. Um, out of misplaced, um, loyalty to the other people involved. Um, you know, you earn a living. Um, you've got Children to protect. Um, and I actually didn't, um, [00:51:30] trust what the outcome would be. I was also, um, having been bullied for for the six months prior to this. I was not in a good state. Um, so I, um I had to leave. Um, and I think from that point I I had, um I still have my family, but career wise I I was a clean slate. I was sitting in my lounge with with no income, um, and [00:52:00] a huge disappointment. I think, um, it the complacency of the people that had let that happen. They weren't in the room, but everyone knew what was going on. Um, but protected themselves. Um, And while I, I don't You can see how that happens, and and I don't blame anyone. I think it left me pretty disappointed about being part of a big machine. [00:52:30] Um, so I made a couple of decisions. I decided that the way I was was to be celebrated. It's not something I'd ever had to, um, question no one in my life had ever had an issue with my sexuality. I I'd never come across it at all. Um, so suddenly I saw that people potentially had issues. Um, and I had two options. One was to, um, go into [00:53:00] a closet. Um, and the other was to say, actually, this is not how I want to live. Um, So I decided to not work for a brand. Um, again, Um, because when you're responsible for a brand, then you have to kind of shut up potentially for the good of the brand and that I was going to have my, um, sexuality written on my website. So anywhere I worked or any work I chose to take on, or [00:53:30] anyone who chose, um to employ me or contract me was doing so, um, in the knowledge that, um, my sexuality and my individuality, um, was something they were choosing, Um, so then they had to choose to have me. It wasn't that they could accidentally get all my parts, my depression, my sexuality. And it's not just sexuality, [00:54:00] but they actually had to jump over that hope before I would invite them into my working life. Um, so that was a huge discipline. Um, but through doing that, I've had amazing opportunities and done some cold stuff. And that's why I ended up doing, um, working with depression and things like that. Because just as you take, um, sexuality is something that [00:54:30] is other, that in the world, most of the world is other. There are the happy people. And then there is the other people who are mentally ill and depressed and anxious. And then there are the the the dominant culture. And then there are the the the people of other ethnicities and other colours. So I reversed it and went, I'm only going to work with other, um, and it's worked [00:55:00] out so far, So not rich. Um, but very much an exercise. I was lucky I had a partner who was able to support me for a time. Obviously. You wonder, you know, living in AAA car on the edge of the street. Um, so I could still have a house. Um, but that was a really good, um, a really good experience and having the fact that I had because [00:55:30] of the experience with the with this woman pretty much hit rock bottom, Um, having to actually claw my way out of that at the same time. Um, I had some amazing opportunities that came up. I got, um, one of the core issues with, um this this person in my workplace was that I got, um, a job working, um, on the good morning show. Um, that was what she had an issue of, because [00:56:00] I was going to be, you know, on the TV. Um, I don't think she thought that, you know, gay people should be allowed on the TV or anywhere in public. Um, so that was brilliant, too. Um, So I had things like that that kept me going, um, and then picking up clients and um, personal trainings. Actually, I've ended up. I do very little personal training these days. I do quite a bit of writing, um, on nontraditional [00:56:30] fitness. Um, So instead of writing for, um, fitness magazines, I write for all the magazines where people who aren't fit read, um, and do some. Um, like I said, do some work with training other trainers, which was just me behind the scenes, actually educating the people in the industry about the fact that most of the people they're dealing with are potentially other as well. Speaking of [00:57:00] celebrations and pride, we've got the out games coming to Wellington next year in March. What does the out games and also the conference and and everything around the out games? What does that mean to you personally? Um, I think it's awesome. I, um Wellington, uh, I know that know the the team that are running the art games have been working towards it. It's been really interesting being in Wellington and watching, um because every January February, [00:57:30] we've got the um out in the square and that has been getting bigger every year with the art games being, you know, the the jewel and the crown. Um, it's it takes. I think it takes it away from just being party and just being, uh, a social event, which is absolutely awesome. Um, but adds a whole different, um, level to it. Um, it's international. [00:58:00] Um, so that's that will bring in a whole lot more people. Um, and I think it's also being a sporting. I think it's really easy for people to go. That's just those, um, so far as visibility. Uh, that it's like the Mardi Gras factor. Oh, let's go and see all the colour. You know, queer people, um, in the square. You know, we don't need to go to the museum this week. We can just go in and pick up some local culture. Um, I think [00:58:30] it takes it out of that and, um, puts a new angle. Not that we need to prove ourselves to the outside world, but I think any visibility, um, is is good. And I think having a, um, sports events that are, um, are queer friendly, um, is huge, because I think I've worked, um, a little bit with, um with gay men [00:59:00] who have struggled with the macho images and their experience of exercise and sport has been defined, um, by feeling like the £98 weakling. So I think this gives an opportunity for perhaps the next generation to see that to not be defined by that, Um, and it's also a It's not just very competitive [00:59:30] with things. There are the the non-competitive stuff as well, which is not very much a feature of big sporting events like that. It's all about being the best. It's good that there's that mix of of the two. So I think it's amazing they're doing such a good job. It's all over the place. And the fact that they've got my photo and my partners on the front page of the website also adds to the you know, hey, just finally I'm wondering, um, what do you think in terms of kind of health, well-being and fitness, What are the biggest issues facing, [01:00:00] uh, queers today? Um, I think for a section of, um, let's start with women, I think, um, going back to what I said before about the anti um aesthetic and in, um, segments of, um, the the lesbian community. I think that can be potentially a hindrance to the positive aspects of fitness, [01:00:30] Um, things like, um, cancers if you are, um, not comfortable with. And I think once again, the experience of perhaps older, um, women not wanting to go and get health checks makes you more, um, prone. If you've got If you're concerned that your doctor is homophobic, then you're not going to necessarily be as honest. Um, and I can imagine for gay men so far as, [01:01:00] um, more, uh, disease prevention and things like that that if you're not comfortable talking to your doctor, then things can be missed. Um, other than that, I think it's the general issues that we all face. Um, so far as health, which is the fact that we can, um, buy anything we need, Um, food wise. Um, so there's far too much, um, good food in the world [01:01:30] and far too many cars and things like that and sedentary jobs, and I think that's universal.

IRN: 185
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/mary_ohagan_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003875
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089169
TITLE: Mary OHagan
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Mary O'Hagan
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; Mary O'Hagan; Rainbow Touchstones; health; lesbian; mental health; profile; transcript online
DATE: 15 October 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Mary O'Hagan talks about growing up and mental health issues.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I grew up. I mean, I. I was a little girl in the 19 sixties. And, um, you know, in those days, um, there was a lot of pressure on little girls to play with tea sets and dolls and, you know, wear dresses and things like that. And I found that, uh, that I wasn't really, uh, oriented towards those things. And, in fact, I, I was much more interested in wearing shorts and playing with guns. I loved guns, and, [00:00:30] um, and going and running around outdoors and doing very active things. So, um, and that set up a real tension in my childhood. And I suppose that one of the the the best Encapsulations of that tension is a photograph I have of me and my very lazy first communion dress with a veil on with a with a homemade, um, rifle, uh, me holding a homemade rifle [00:01:00] over my shoulder. My parents obviously found that very funny and decided to take a photo. Um, so, yes, I had this tension as a child, and then, um, I thought, Well, maybe, you know, if you're a tomboy when you're a girl, does that mean you're a lesbian? when you grow up. And this used to worry me a bit. And I remember my mother gave me a sex education book when I was about 13. And in it it said that, um and this was based on [00:01:30] Freudian notions that said that if, um you know you you know that as a child and an adolescent, you can have homosexual feelings, and that's OK, but if you grow up, if you have them when you're grown up, that you're really you're really pretty stuffed. I mean, you know, you that's pathological. Um, and so I was brought up kind of with this belief, Uh, certainly with although my parents knew some gay people and lesbians. [00:02:00] But there was a kind of I suppose I had the kind of belief that if you grew up a lesbian, you were going to have a pretty unhappy life. And there was something a little bit sick about your head. When was the first time you heard about lesbianism? Oh, I can't remember when I first heard about it, but I do remember these women coming to Sunday lunch when I was about 12. Um, and they were colleagues of my fathers and and my parents [00:02:30] never called them lesbians, But, um, one of them was incredibly butch and very funny and quite crude and everything. And the other one was a pretty sort of thing, you know? And, um, and it didn't dawn on me till later that they are lesbians, But, um, I remember my parents are not joking about them, but but obviously, they had an attitude about them. Even before I realised that they were lesbians that, um, they were actually, um, a bit different. Yeah. [00:03:00] Yeah. Um, and so they're the first lesbians I think I ever met. I can't remember the first gay man I ever met. Um, it probably didn't have such an impression on me. So reading that book from your mother was that the first time you had actually seen something in print about what you were feeling? I guess it was. And of course, it wasn't very validating. And, of course, during my teenage years, um, I mean, I went out with boys. Um, [00:03:30] and I don't think it really came to the crunch until, um, I got a bit older. Probably about 17 or 18, although, uh, from an intellectual point of view. I. I was worried about it, but I still sort of went out with, you know, I was quite happy to go out with boys. Yeah. Can you recall in the sixties what, um, the kind of wider community felt about homosexuality? Oh, it was pretty grim, [00:04:00] I think. I mean, and in a way, if I look at the way I felt about it, uh, and that would have been a reflection of the community. And, um, it was pretty, It wasn't very positive. And, you know, I remember people at school going on about and, you know, she's a and all that sort of thing when I was, um, you know, 11 or 12. I think they still do that today, but I don't know. I don't think they do so much, but, [00:04:30] um, they've got a very interesting twist on the word gay today. That's what were some of the words that were used back then, as as derogatory terms. Oh, there was a well, Lizzy, um, I think queer was derogatory. Uh uh. I mean, a lot of these reclaimed words now. So it all started coming to a head when you were around about 17 or 18. Yeah, and I got very worried [00:05:00] about my sexual orientation. Um, and I I was the The thing that worried me most about it was that I thought, if I you know, if I was a lesbian, I wouldn't be able to have Children. That was the That was the big thing. More than the stigma of it, I think at that stage, um, and I I knew at a distance a lesbian couple when I was about 18. And, um well, they seem quite nice people, you know? [00:05:30] I mean, so So I think gradually, as I got a little bit older during those years, from the late teens to my severely to mid twenties, I gradually, um, got to meet people who were lesbians and who were gay. And, you know, they were you know, they were just, um you know, like what you'd expect any group of people to be. There were some that you really liked and some you didn't like so [00:06:00] much. And, um and and but also that at the same time, there was a huge amount of political activity going on, especially in universities, I think, and this was the kind of late seventies early eighties, and there was a huge, um, you know, it was it was the days of the women's rooms and the lesbian Separatist, um, split with the other lesbians and the and and with the feminists, and and so there was [00:06:30] a lot of activity going on. So I think, in a way, there was a lot of visibility about it. Um, and I gradually got more comfortable with the idea and more comfortable with, um, lesbians. Yeah. Yeah, and I think that helped me quite a lot. And but And at the same time, um, when you think about all the political activity that was going on, um, and the homosexual law reform, of course. [00:07:00] I think the whole social attitude there was a kind of a, uh, maybe a bit of a tipping point around that era when, you know, attitudes changed very fast over a very short time. And the, you know, in the late seventies, early eighties, can you recall how your family reacted to those quite rapid changes? Oh, well, I don't think it mattered to them until I came out to them. I mean, my [00:07:30] family were quite liberal. So and they were very, um they were very tolerant people. And, um um, quite forward thinking. My parents. So So these weren't big issues for them. I mean, when I came out to my mother, she told me I was going through a phase, which is, you know, I mean, that was her way of dealing with it, but actually, I mean, my parents were quite OK about it. [00:08:00] I mean, I'm sure that my father in particular, probably preferred me to be heterosexual, but he wasn't. Um there was no change in the relationship because of it. Yeah. Did you grow up in a large town or a city? Well, I Well, I initially grew up in a small town, um, called Winton in Southland, and I mean, it only had a couple of 1000 people on it. Um, and when I was 11, we went to the large [00:08:30] city of Invercargill, which had about 50,000 in those days. And, um, but of course, Southland, um, is a conservative part of the world. But I, I guess I never joined in with the conservatism of Southland. And I don't think my family did really either Where do you think that liberalism came from? Within your family? Uh, probably a combination of, um, [00:09:00] education, eccentricity and, um, imagination. I think I think that was probably a combination of those three things. Yeah, because you can be educated. I mean, education gives you a larger view on the world, but you can still be very educated and very conservative, so I think, um, I think there was a bit of eccentricity there on my mother's side of the family anyway. [00:09:30] So when did your mental health issues start occurring? When I was 18, badly, when I was 18. I mean, I got a bit down at high school, but really, um, it became a crisis point at 18. Was that tied in any way with feelings about your sexual orientation? Well, I think in a way it was tied in as it always is. It was very much tied in with the, um [00:10:00] the struggles I was having at the time. Um, and you know so commonly with young people, it's things like, Who am I And what's my place in the world? And of course, uh, quite a major chunk of that at that age is your sexual orientation, so yeah, Yeah. I mean, I think, um, I think it it was all part of the mix. Yeah. So can you tell me [00:10:30] a wee bit about, um, your mental health issues? Well, um, I, um, had probably about eight or nine years of experiencing very severe mood swings where I would get very so depressed that I was sort of almost catatonic, you know, I couldn't move, and I couldn't speak. And I, you know, I could barely go. I could still go to the toilet and do things like that. But I really couldn't do much else. And then I'd get Then [00:11:00] I'd get to the other extreme where I was, um, up all the time. Partying, moving around constantly on the move. Couldn't sit down. Um, very elated. Um, And that would, uh, So that would after a while, turn into paranoia, and I get psychotic. I mean, I got psychotic. Um, you know, I got I got into a kind of a another reality with these conditions when they got severe as well. And and [00:11:30] I had, um, Now, I mean, I Sometimes I go for months, and I'd be fine and then it would all sort of erupt again. But it really disrupted my life over about a nine year period. So when they first started happening, did you know what was happening? No. No. Well, did I know what was happening? Yeah, well, you said no. I mean, I You obviously know something's terribly wrong. [00:12:00] Uh, when you start getting or terribly something different when you start getting high or depressed. Um, and of course, there's a big controversy about what you name it. Um, I had no idea that I had a condition that these so-called experts would call depression or manic depression or bipolar. Um, um, I might have had other names for it. Um, but of course, the [00:12:30] names that are given to these things are basically their kind of judgments about them is they're not sort of Well, I mean, I mean, II, I just prefer to call them mood swings. Yeah, but in fact, that's not even a particularly accurate name, because, um, they they were a whole body kind of experience. Um, because it wasn't just moods. It was It was about your cognitive functioning, but your physical functioning? Um, [00:13:00] not just not just about your emotions. Um, I mean, there were, uh you know, like, a lot of it was about being sped up, uh, or slowed down in terms of cognitive function and physical functioning, too. Yeah. So, um and and it was an intensely spiritual experience. Um, as well, um, any experience you go through that, um, that involves, [00:13:30] uh, a you know, a huge shift in the way you are in the world. Uh, it's gonna be quite a profound experience for you. Um and I suppose for people who haven't been through these major, sort of huge mood swings or psychosis or whatever, uh, a drug experience might do the same thing. But you, you you kind of transport it into this other reality. And, [00:14:00] uh, you see the world from a different perspective. And, um, that's hugely, uh, challenging and kind of a bit difficult to accommodate or incorporate into the whole story of your life. Um, and and but it's quite a profound. I mean, being in the depths of despair or at the height of elation, they've quite profound human experiences. They both tap into the [00:14:30] whole question of our existence. I mean, despair is really about this existence isn't worth it, you know. So there are existential crises in a way, um, and I probably prefer to use that language than spiritual language. But of course, the the people who were on the other side of the treating table were not interested in the content of the experience. They just wanted to know that you were having [00:15:00] it, um, and give you some pills. And then they wanted to know that you weren't having it anymore. Um, so they had a They kind of had. This is this experience is on the rubbish heap. We've got to eliminate it and get rid of it. It was sort of like a surgical approach to it rather than an integrative approach. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and and I found that very limiting and very annoying. Um, and it's something that still goes on, Of course. [00:15:30] So can we take you back to the, uh, late seventies and just perhaps, talk about what your experience of, um, mental health services in New Zealand were like and also from the perspective of, um, your sexuality as well? Well, um, in the late seventies and early eighties, um, it was it it was what I call a pills and pillow service. Um, although, [00:16:00] um, I probably had a bit more access to sort of psychotherapy then than people would now in the public system. But really, basically, it was pills and pillows, so there were no sort of community services. You always went up to the hospital for your appointment. There was no sort of out what they used to call outpatient sort of facilities, so that that was a major difference. And, um, because the you know, since then, the big hospitals have closed down. And, [00:16:30] um and, uh, uh, most of the services are based in community settings, and people aren't sort of not so many people are are put into hospital. But the other thing was, of course, you know, it was, um it was in 1973 that, um, the American Psychiatric Association ditched its diagnosis of, um, homosexuality in its diagnostic manual. [00:17:00] And of course, the diagnostic manual is a total farce. Uh, what happened was that they they got rid of this diagnosis by vote. And of course, they do a lot of diagnosis. They they bring diagnoses in a lot and take them out sort of by vote, and it's a very political process. Um, and there's nothing terribly scientific about about it at all. Um, So I you know, and I know that before that time [00:17:30] in New Zealand, you know, there was, you know, in the hospitals they had aversion therapy for gay people that, you know, show them homo erotic images and then sort of give them a bit of a flick or something to hurt them or something like that. Well, I think they they experience some pain, so I don't think it was absolutely drastic, torturous pain, but I think they got the the whole idea of a version therapist. You associate [00:18:00] unpleasantness with the thing that you desire that you don't want to desire or other people don't want you to desire. So there was a bit of that going on in in, um, in mental hospitals. Um, the the West has always had a a pretty dim view about homosexuality, but I think, um, Freud sort of, um, elaborated on this end. Um, [00:18:30] had this view that you know, homosexuality, homosexual tendencies. Uh, well, they're kind of normal in childhood, which is quite a radical view. and I don't think it's even that true. But, um, and but people who grew up and remained homosexual, I think his view was that they were they had some sort of pathology psychopathology. Um, anyway, uh, I guess, um, in a way, [00:19:00] I knew instinctively that if I talked about my, uh, feelings about being a lesbian to mental health professionals, I mean, that would give them another reason to pathologize me. And I guess, in a way, um, because of the way they practised, I was reasonably defensive with them. Um, because they they had a totally deficits view of what was going on. [00:19:30] Uh, well, you didn't want to show them too much of yourself because you didn't want them to add to your deficits all the time. And I and I kind of, um you know, I knew that there were these lingering sort of beliefs about homosexuality. So So I That was the last thing I would have talked to them about. Yeah. Having the sexuality in the back of your mind. Did that ever prevent you from going and seeking help? [00:20:00] No, because I just decided I wouldn't talk to them about that stuff. so it was quite easy just to no one no one ever asked me. Actually, it's quite interesting, which is quite an interesting thing. Um, I don't think anyone ever asked me about that, which is which is, in a way, quite significant, because it probably shows, um, that those professionals weren't that [00:20:30] at ease with it, um, themselves. So back in the late seventies, what were the treatment options available to you? Uh, well, actually, the drug treatments, really, They There's been roughly the same kind of menu of drug treatments for 50 years. I mean, they change their spots a bit. Um, but but they're roughly the same. They're the kind of the kind of anti anxiety drugs, the antidepressant [00:21:00] drugs, the mood stabilisers and the antipsychotics. They're the main groups of drugs. And, um, they're not much better now than they were back then. Uh, some have less side effects. Some have worse side effects. Some of the new ones. Um, So, um, so there were the drugs. Um, and, you know, they tried me on just about everything. Um, and then they had a little bit more psychotherapy. Um, going on [00:21:30] in those days. Um, since the eighties. Biological psychiatry is really, um, had a resurgence. Um, uh, uh, and and mental health services. Um, but the therapy was just terrible. I mean, I I went to a couple of group therapy things. And, um, well, in fact, in some ways, it was worse than being told you had, you [00:22:00] know, an imbalance in your brain chemistry, Um, being told that, you know that you were, um, psychologically inadequate. Well, I'd rather have an imbalance, I think, than being told I wasn't, You know, I was inadequate person. And, of course, that was that was very much a deficit. It was sort of a deficits based psychotherapy. We had It was all about what was wrong with us. And, uh oh, it was terrible. It was shocking. It was awful. [00:22:30] And I just didn't participate much. Really. I dropped out. I was a bit I was a huge psychotherapy dropout. Yeah, So were these treatments, um, voluntary, Or did you have to do it compulsorily? Well, I was threatened with compulsory treatment on, um, a few occasions, and I seem to have the wherewithal to, um comply with, um things, so No, I was never No not that I know of. I don't think I was ever under an order, [00:23:00] uh, which I feel quite grateful for because I think it's a, um I. I mean, I've got a very dim view about the way compulsory treatment is is used, so they were kind of voluntary, but, uh, the there's the subtle sort of coercion that goes on as well, Uh, in mental health services, Um, but I think I was a strong enough person, [00:23:30] um, to not do something if I didn't want to. Yeah, but when they threatened me with the act, I mean, I was pretty far on. I mean, I was pretty out of it when they threatened me with. I knew my number was up. I knew I needed some sort of shelter of some sort. So, uh, that wasn't a big problem. Um, although today if if the same thing happened to me today and, um, they tried to put me on antipsychotics, I'd be pretty upset about [00:24:00] it. Yeah. How did your family respond, uh, to my mental health problems? Well, they were very worried because I had a, um you know, quite a major suicide attempt when I was 21. Uh, they My my parents were pretty over anxious and probably weren't. Um uh, it it was probably more helpful for me not to see too much of them during that time. Although [00:24:30] I'd always had a good relationship with them. And I did. After it all ended, it was a It was a bit tricky during those times. Um, I had a brother who was very supportive, and, um, I had some very supportive friends as well, which was hugely important. Yeah. So did the drugs work in the end? Well, only one of them seemed to do anything. And that was, um, an antidepressant. Um [00:25:00] I mean, I I've really come to the view that the drugs under a long term solution. Um, but it seemed to me that, uh, I did start taking out an antidepressant at one stage, and they were reluctant to put me on them because of my my manias. Um, that did seem to, um, sort of, um, stabilise things. Yeah, so [00:25:30] that was that was quite useful. Uh, but it's very hard to know, you know, if there weren't other things going on at the same time, that um We're also having an impact. Did you have an experience of mental health institutions? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I was in hospital a lot. Um, I was mainly in a in a ward that was attached to a general hospital. Um, but I was also on Sunnyside. Yeah. Yeah. [00:26:00] And Sunnyside was a particularly horrible place. Um, I think the, um I mean, they're not nice places. Um, and and the the really depressing thing is that the kind of acute ward setting has got worse over the last 20 years. Not better. Um, but they're not very therapeutic places for people to be who are distressed. Um, I mean, [00:26:30] I could have benefited much more from going to a respite house or some other sort of more homely place where things were more ordinary. Yeah. What were the things that you recall weren't so good? Oh, I think that Well, I think, uh, in a place like Sunnyside in particular, the level of coercion that was going on, um, the seclusion. I mean, [00:27:00] we didn't even have a place to sit. The nurses wouldn't talk to you. Um, everyone was drugged out of their heads, Just sort of right. You know kind of. You know, I remember the first time I went in there, and there were just people lined up on the corridors just sitting in the corridors up against the wall, Just kind of half asleep. Um, and the nurses all sort of tucked away in the nurses station. [00:27:30] Uh, not really wanting to respond to anyone's request for help. Um, and that that's an incredibly common feature all over the world in these places is that, um the nurses don't seem to, uh, talk to the patients much. So was it more about containment? Well, yeah, I think it definitely, um, today it's it's containment. Yeah. And of course, you [00:28:00] know, the other thing about these places is that you're feeling very distressed yourself. And there's all these other distressed people around you who might be behaving in ways that you're not able to cope with, so that that's another issue. So can you recall any lesbians in the institutions or talk about sexuality? Yeah. Yeah, I had a good friend who was a lesbian, and, um, she's one of the people that probably helped make me feel more [00:28:30] comfortable with it. Yeah, she was quite comfortable with it. I mean, she was very open about it. She didn't actually, she ended up getting married. So I ran into her a few years ago and she was married. I thought, God. So, um, I did I mean, over the years, I've talked to people who who are in those old institutions and who were lesbians and who were not treated very well. Uh, and and in fact, I mean, there's quite a lot of [00:29:00] research that's come out from Britain in particular, about the experience of gay and lesbian people inside mental health services. Um, a lot of fear of being judged. Now, this is going back to the nineties, so it would be interesting to know if it's different now, but a lot of fear of being judged, um, a lot of, uh, But when people do disclose, um, you know, not a high percentage of people were very [00:29:30] happy with the response they got. Um, you know, I think I think there's, uh, probably still quite a lot that could be done in services. Um, for, uh, gay and lesbian people, because, I mean, people tend to go into mental health services at a young age, and that's an age when obviously, people are forming their sexual identity. Um, and [00:30:00] in this country, there's been very little attention paid to gay and lesbian issues and mental health. So did you ever talk about it when you were in the hospital? I can't remember if I had conversations with her about it. Um, but I do. Um I do remember, you know, feeling very at ease with her, and And she was one of the people that helped me go, You know, feel much more comfortable about it. Yeah. [00:30:30] So, I, I asked, um, earlier on about whether your mental health issues were related to sexuality. Do you think that's a common theme that runs through, uh, gay and lesbian transgender people? Oh, yes, I think. Well, the the statistics suggest that, um, if you're gay or lesbian, you know, you do have a higher chance of developing mental health problems [00:31:00] and substance abuse problems. It's particularly high for people who identify as bisexual. Apparently, Um And I mean, I think transgender people have a really difficult time, Uh, with mental health issues. Yeah. Um, and this is one reason I think why, You know, there probably needs to be a bit more attention. Um, put on, uh, this group of people, um, [00:31:30] by mental health services. Yeah. Why do you think there is a higher rate of mental health issues in the queer community? Is it because of internal factors? Or is it because of external things that are happening to people, Anyone who I mean people generally as a species. I mean, we crave sort of social acceptance, um, and belonging [00:32:00] and being visible and being appreciated and liked and all those things. And I think if we form an identity that threatens those things, if we have an identity that threatens those things, um that can prey on our mental health. I think it's probably as simple as that, um and and also can lead us into, you know, more substance abuse and other kind of [00:32:30] coping behaviours that, um, we tend to use when things are stressful or we don't feel part of it or whatever. Yeah. I mean, there's nothing inherent about being lesbian or gay that would create mental health problems. No. So I think it's I think it's about how where people see themselves in relation to society. One of, um, the labels you use [00:33:00] to identify yourself is mad. And I'm just wondering if you could talk to me about kind of owning labels and and whether mad is just the only label that you own or, um, if there are others No, no, Mad is not the only label. I mean, it's my I suppose it's my work life label. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I don't. No. Well, I mean, I'm, um I'm [00:33:30] queer. I suppose, too. So mad and queer. Um, how else would I label myself? I mean, man, and are reclaimed words, um, and they and they're kind of used with the same motivation. Can you talk to me about, um, kind of reclaiming those words? Yeah. I. I mean, I think, um, it's interesting that a lot of movements have done this. Um, I think, um, using [00:34:00] words that have been used in a disparaging way against us, uh, with a new sort of positive, shiny identity, um, is a really interesting twist on things. Um, and I, I quite enjoy it. Um, not everyone does. I mean, there are lots of people I know who have been through the system who hate the word [00:34:30] mad and get a bit upset when I start using it. Um, but I think, uh, you know, I. I suppose it shows a kind of a sense of humour or irony that I quite enjoy, too. Yeah. And, uh, a boldness about who you are and what you stand for. Yeah, in the mid eighties, uh, New Zealand was going through the homosexual law reform. What impact did that have on you? [00:35:00] Well, it had an indirect impact. I mean, I. I remember going to meetings about it and, um, you know, getting sort of interested in it and everything. It was just before I came out, actually, Um, and because it was just to do with men and sodomy, you know? You know, so it didn't really well, so I mean, um, although it was significant, [00:35:30] it wasn't it. You know, um I mean, the big joke was that Queen Victoria didn't, um she doesn't, uh, approve a law against, um, lesbians because she didn't believe they existed. So, um, so in a way, um, but but I think it it was part of a whole, um, ACC accelerated change of attitudes that was going on at that time towards people who are lesbian or gay. [00:36:00] And I think the fact that, um, that, uh, you know, the government was able to pass this legislation at that time was a reflection of the change. You know, the very quick change that was happening and people's attitudes. So I think I was caught up in that change in my attitude towards myself. Were you still, uh, in hospital at that time? Um, now, the last [00:36:30] time I was in hospital was 1984. So, uh, but I very clearly remember going to meetings in 1985 about the homosexual law reform. It was quite a big thing. So how did you, um, what helped with the wellness? How how did how? Well, um, as I said, um, you know, I, I was put on a drug that was I thought was quite helpful. And then, [00:37:00] um uh, the beginning of 1985 my brother was drowned. And, um, I think I think it was almost like a circuit breaker. I. I don't know quite how else to explain it, but but it kind of jolted me into a slightly another way of being. I think, um and particularly in terms of my the a lot of the self pity I carried about, you know, how my [00:37:30] life had gone that far. You know, this far, And And I realised, of course, that my brother, whose life had gone a lot a lot more smoothly than mine, had had it cut very short at the age of 28. And, um, that I was I was now the lucky one, I guess. And that sort of jolted me into a kind of a new attitude to life. And I think that really helped me a lot as well. I mean, it's quite paradoxical because I was very grief stricken. [00:38:00] Um, but I found the experience of grief to be very different from the type of depression that I had experienced previously. I mean, I think these things are always a bit of a mystery. Actually, I don't know if you can ever really understand, uh, how healing happens, but they seem to be two sort of conspicuous reasons. Looking back to, um, your experiences [00:38:30] with the mental health services in the late seventies and eighties. How do you think they compare nowadays? To how, um queer people, gay and lesbians transgender, uh, are treated by mental health services. My assumption is just from what I know and what I've heard. I mean, my assumption is that people are you you've got a greater chance of being, [00:39:00] um, well treated. If you come out in mental health services now, then you would have 30 or 40 years ago. I mean, that doesn't mean to say that you always will be, but I think your chances are better. Yeah. Um because one of the really interesting things about all this is is the kind of anticipated discrimination, uh, which can actually be worse than because it's a sign of your own [00:39:30] internalised stuff. And it can actually be worse than, uh then the reception you actually get when you do come out. Um, and I think there's probably a high degree of anticipated discrimination going on, you know, with young people who are struggling with their sexuality, and then they have a kind of mental health service that might be controlling them, you know, whatever. But yeah, I think I think on the whole [00:40:00] your chances of getting a a good deal and a good reaction are are better. Just thinking of young people. There's been quite a bit of talk in the media recently about bullying in schools and particularly queer kids coming through school. Do you have any thoughts about bullying in schools? Well, I think bullying at any age is pretty bad. I mean, um, my kids, um you know, they're going through school. [00:40:30] Um, now they go to a very liberal inner city schools. And, um, you know, being queer just isn't an issue for them. I mean, it's quite interesting, and I and I know other teenagers for whom. Yeah. So it's not even an issue. Yeah. You know, coming from central Wellington, I don't see among these kids. I don't [00:41:00] see any bullying that's around. Um, you know what? You know whether there's sort of a bit camp or something or, um, Butch or whatever. Um, and I think they have a great sort of, um a great sort of, uh, accommodation for diversity, these kids much more than we did. But then, um, I don't know what it's like at school. If you go to school and or something like that, it might be quite different. [00:41:30] Um, and and some of these very conservative schools. Yeah. I mean, I think, um, there is some learning going on, still isn't there. But my my, uh, sample is very restricted. Yeah, um, one of the things that interested me was being in an institution. Uh, did you find your sense of hope diminished? Oh, yeah. [00:42:00] Oh, it was terrible. Well, I mean, the longest stint I had was three months, and so usually I was in for weeks, sometimes just for days, Um, and I, I think it was the kind of maybe not so much the institutional. That was pretty awful. But it was the outlook they gave you. And, um, I, you know, I was told at the age of 21 that I had a serious mental health problem [00:42:30] that I would have, um you know, episodes of mood swings for the rest of my life that I'd really have to lower my horizons for my career. And also that, actually, I should think twice about having Children. So, um, for a young person to be told that, you know, you probably wouldn't have [00:43:00] access to the two things that most young people or a lot of young people want. And that's, uh, ways of contributing through to the world through parenting and work. It was a real, um uh I mean, there's no better way to stuff up someone's sense of hope and purpose in life. And that kind of derailed me for a little while, but I didn't believe I mean then well, then, after a while, I seem to be struggling so long with these issues [00:43:30] that I I started to think, Well, maybe they're right about the stuff. And maybe I'll never be able to work. And maybe even if I want to have Children, I won't be able to, because I you know, I'm single and everything like that. And so um so, yeah, they they did a They do a great job at, um, stripping people's hope away. I mean, it's absolutely extraordinary. And, um, again, I think this stuff [00:44:00] still goes on a bit today. Uh, but this is a very common story. People say this again and again that they were given these really pessimistic prognosis. And of course, the belief was that once you had these conditions that affect you for the rest of your life, and the evidence suggests that. Actually, there's no real pattern. You can't predict any pattern to these things. They've got. Everyone's got their own [00:44:30] pattern. Yeah. And, you know, if you if you put the right elements, uh, in place in your life, um, you've got a pretty good chance of having a good life. Yeah. So can you talk a wee bit about how all these strands have come together in in the work that you do now? Well, the work I do is grounded in that kind of lived experience, but it's [00:45:00] it's more than that. It's grounded on the, um the kind of the principles and the beliefs of the movement of people with lived experience. And I guess it's very much like other movements. Um, that Say, Look, um, you know, we've been oppressed, and, you know, we want our self determination. We want to be able to live [00:45:30] the lives that we want and not to be pushed around by society and attitudes and by the control system that was the mental health system. Um, so I mean, there's a There's a myriad of ways of expressing those beliefs, I guess, or, um but But that's really the the foundation of my work is the belief that, um, that people [00:46:00] who have diagnoses of mental health problems are full human beings and, um, have the right to self determination. And that doesn't go down too well with, um, some people, Um uh, because, uh, the mental health system is really, uh, at its core. It's a system that controls [00:46:30] and contains people. I mean, if we had funding cuts, you know, say a lot of the funding was stripped away, you know, all the all the good services would go, and all the crappy social control services would remain because they're the core of it. Really? Yeah. But you must have seen a change over the last 10 15 years in terms of how mental health is dealt with in the wider society. I think there's, um there's been [00:47:00] a There's been quite a big shift, I think, in, uh, social attitudes towards mental health problems, Um, particularly the kind of what they call the high prevalence problems like depression and anxiety. Once you get down to the label of schizophrenia, it's not so marked, you know? I mean, um, but one of the really good things is that people are starting to talk more about the positive side of things [00:47:30] you know about well-being and so on. And, um and I think obviously, people with major mental health problems, um, can benefit as much from that positive psychology or that well-being stuff as anyone else. In fact, maybe more, you know? So I think I think that's been good. But I think, um, yeah, when I think about when I first started being an advocate in the late eighties, [00:48:00] um, there were some pretty awful community attitudes around them that I don't sort of see quite so much now, Yeah, How do they express themselves? Well, it's usually about, um, you know, people, you know, houses of mad people going and living next door. Uh, and that still goes on. I mean, there are still, um, communities that protest about this, but, oh, it was pretty vitriolic. Um, [00:48:30] back in the eighties. And of course, you know, the communities the So-called community was worried about because, you know, the government was announcing that the hospitals were closing, so there was a you know, there was a backlash against that. And now I think it's just accepted that you know people aren't going to be locked up forever and, um, that they do live in communities. And, you know, that's It's OK, really, [00:49:00] although you can never be too complacent about the, um, the return to institutionalisation. I mean, it's I think there's always a vague threat that it could happen. And that's because I think, um well, I So I still think there's a level of, um, discrimination out there, but I think it's got a lot better.

IRN: 163
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/do_you_like_what_you_see.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003876
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089170
TITLE: Do You Like What You See?
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: David; Ian Kember
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; Alexander Turnbull Library; Aotearoa New Zealand; Beacons of Hope (Wellington); Cabaret (musical); David; Devotion (Wellington); Holmes (tv); Ian Kember; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Paul Holmes; Quentin Crisp; Wellington; archives; arson; failure; gay; internalised homophobia; photography; photography (film); programme; visual arts
DATE: 27 October 1998
YEAR: 1998
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast a couple of gay photographers talk about their work.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: You get into people's homes and lives and experiences in a way that you could speak to someone for 20 years and not actually go through and ask the questions about Where were you born? Who were your parents? What school did you go to? I've known this chap for 25 years, who I recently, uh, did a profile of him and his partner in his house in They'd been there 20 years, about to leave for a farmer in the I photographed [00:00:30] them in their house quite ordinary sort of situations, took a tape recorder along and said, Hey, um, where were you born? Who were your parents? And this whole wealth of information that came out? I think it's about the ability to capture a range of of moments and moods. I think it's that, um, photography, Um, can it? It's got that split second quality and and and also that generates an element of chance as well [00:01:00] that, um, it's not until you get the role of 36 photographs back that you're absolutely certain of of what you've got. Um, whereas somebody say painting portraits, um, it's a much slower process. Um, there's much more input from the artist, Um, whereas so photographer, it's fairly even between what the what the photographer puts in and what the subject puts in. And even to an extent, what chance puts in once you [00:01:30] move out of the audience and become a reporter or photographer at an event, a whole different series of mental patterns drive your experience of the day. I have been to beacons of hope and devotion as a participant and as a photographer. And there's a very, very big difference, the the first or second beacons of hope. I understand from other people and looking around looking at other people and the photographs [00:02:00] I took of other people, there was a very moving event. I came away pleased that I managed to capture high quality images. Well, that, um, that I'd done the right things. I've been in the right spot at the right time. I'd anticipated, uh, where the light was going to fall and all those kind of technical issues, and completely lost the emotional experience that everybody else or the other people in the event had. It was interesting that, um, [00:02:30] that that was supported to a large degree by the straight community. Um, so, like, the crowd was very, very mixed. Um, but I found that a number of the, um, gay people I was sort of photographing were a bit suspicious of me. I think they they were not sure that they wanted to have their pictures taken in that, you know, to be to be caught or identified as being there. Um, [00:03:00] which I found quite interesting, because the straight people in the crowd, as far as you can tell who was gay or straight, um, were not worried by this. I thought it was quite an interesting, um, thing about those people still not really being that comfortable about being identified at at a gay event, even though all the presumably all the the straight people there were there to to be supportive and and join in and, um, [00:03:30] sort of celebrate and commemorate and and the the beacons of hope event. I don't necessarily find photographing gay men easy at all. It's not I don't think at all. Um, arranging times and fitting in with their schedules and fitting in with their personalities, uh, is can be quite difficult. Um, you might have been, um, to a film festival film [00:04:00] or something, and someone who was quite friendly to you yesterday doesn't want to know you today. There's that lack of confidence in gay men That, um, is is is a real, uh, deficiency, I think, and in public can be quite off putting. Friends of mine have told me about walking down Courtney Place and actually seeing people disappearing into shops to avoid seeing them. Um, there's there's an aspect to gay culture that's, uh, most undesirable. And, [00:04:30] um, this certainly comes out in taking photographs, uh, depending on the event or where you're at and all kinds of things. But there's no excuse not to try. I suppose this gay men that I haven't photographed that I have seen that don't have that level of pride come arrogance of, [00:05:00] of having climbed mountains and got to the top. There are sufficient numbers of them who who would consider themselves failures in life. Uh, and I haven't photographed a lot. I I'd say in that category, but failure and, um, failure is a very subjective word. There might be failures in terms of what their parents think of them, but I, I can think of people that haven't succeeded financially [00:05:30] or academically. But, um, have done very clever things artistically, um, that that society has has recognised and, um, sure, um and even among some of them, I can see that degree of pride slash arrogance. Where they, um you know, I call the queen and Chris factor, you know, stuff you you know. And, um perhaps perhaps [00:06:00] I'm a bit envious of that, uh, aspect and and and and a bit of voyeur, You know, I want I want to capture on film that, um uh, stuff. You look, I think there's still a degree of sort of internalised sort of, um, homophobia. I think, um, I think we still have to be careful about, um Who we out ourselves too. [00:06:30] Um, there's there's still a large degree of hostility towards gay people. Um, and a photograph, I suppose, is a bit of a threat because it lasts. And so, although people might be happy to be at the event, um, and be seen by the other people who are sort of supportive capturing a photograph. Um, suddenly you lose control of where that image goes to, um and it may pop up somewhere that they they would wish it not to people [00:07:00] when asked nowadays to be photographed. Um, as gay men, um seemingly have the confidence now to say Yes, I'll do it. In the last week, I've asked two gay men whether they would be photographed at home and at work, and both of them have got partners. And I know both of the partners and they know me. And it was interesting to notice that both gay men said yes, but I'll have to ask my partner about [00:07:30] whether they would do it. So there wasn't that confidence to speak on behalf of other people. So we've got the first and most important level people will commit themselves, but they will not commit other people. If I, um if I asked my brother-in-law and sister if I asked my brother-in-law, Can I take a photograph of you and and and your wife? I'm sure he would speak on behalf of her. Uh, I'm I'm not sure that's necessarily right, but it [00:08:00] does say something about the level of confidence. They've got to level probably level one, But, um, in these two circumstances, um, one person felt their partner might not be too happy happy about having the photograph taken. But when it goes into the archive, who would have access to it? Legs? Or the Lesbian and gay Archives of New Zealand was, um, established, um, out of the Gay Rights Resource Centre, [00:08:30] which, um, did a lot of the lobbying through the seventies, um, and amassed, uh, a bunch of material, um, and was a mend a source for those campaigning during the 19 eighties during the Homosexual Law Reform Bill campaign. Um, following the successful passing of the campaign, the, um, the rooms that the material was held in were were attacked by an arsonist, and some of the material was lost, and a lot of it [00:09:00] was smoke damaged. Um, and at that time, the chief librarian of the Turnbull Library offered, um, safe accommodation for the material in the Turnbull Library because he recognised that it was a nationally and even internationally significant, um, resource. So it was, um, transferred to the Turnbull Library and and the organisation was renamed and incorporated under a trust board, um, to become ends as it now is, [00:09:30] um, the material is, um, both books and, um, serials, periodicals, magazines, from all over the world. Um, but an important part of it is personal papers, Um, that people have left diaries and notebooks and photograph collections. Um, there are also the organisational papers of various groups. Um, the AIDS foundation, for example. The early papers, um, are lodged [00:10:00] there. Um, access to the collection is through, um, the Turnbull library staff. Um, there is quite a, um a a good and involved agreement agreement with the the library, um, about terms of access and that sort of thing. So there are only specific staff who have access to the material. Um, and they are sort of appointed as as curators by the the trust board. Um [00:10:30] and there's it. It relies on a good degree of of goodwill between the library and the and the trust, Um, which happily to date has been very good. The purpose in documenting gay issues is that as abnormal as gayness as a society, it is normal. What we know from the animal world that homosexuality is, in fact, part of the everyday activities of quite of animal species, [00:11:00] the perverseness or the so-called perverseness. That society has placed upon us as gay men lesbians, Um, appears to be totally misplaced That, um if you like the the architect of the human species had a had a sense of humour and had this degree of Yin and Yan about the thing that was created in that maybe 80% of society or 90% of society was going to [00:11:30] to use their skills and bodies and emotions in one way. But there was this other side of the coin all the time, the yin and the yang. And, um uh, the if you like, it's the survival or the progress of gaming in society is, in a way, reflects the maturity or lack of maturity of the societal base from which [00:12:00] they come from, um, coming from Greek and Roman society through the middle and and dark and middle Ages into the period of Renaissance and, uh, the industrial revolution through to the colonisation of New Zealand. You've pretty well got everything from black to white in terms of how it came in, uh, or or witches or deviants have been treated. Now I feel at the present time we may have even climbed [00:12:30] the top of the cliff. We may be at the uh, extrem of liberal society. There are enough. There's enough evidence around the moment to suggest that there are strong, fundamental pressures. If the economy slumps and we go into a a fairly long recession, it may be, in fact, that it's a fairly family and home government that's elected that some of the liberal, um, values that have been espoused. [00:13:00] We may not be able to afford them any longer. EEO and those movements in the public service and unemployment may in fact deteriorate. Um, I was at, um, cabaret last week and thought, Hey, listen, this is 1935 1937 or something, and all of a sudden, you know, this all disappeared This wonderful free society that that was happening in Berlin, it was pulled away like a as quickly as a carpets removed off the floor. And [00:13:30] this is, um, one of the important things I think in in documenting photographically, uh, or having some record of the activities of people in society today because it will change. It won't last forever. Um, so what we see in in the newspapers and on television and the homes programme and that sort of thing, it all seems like it's all happening and will go on forever. But it doesn't. And, uh, the record certainly disappear, too. [00:14:00] And, uh, I'm hoping, you know, to sort of start thinking in terms of, um, certainly the gay part of my collection of of the 1st 1000 images, the 1st 10,000 images and in the 1st 100,000 images. That's the sort of volume I'm talking about. I mean, 1000 images is only 30 rolls of film. Um, 10,000 is only 300 100,000 is probably only, you know, 3 4000 [00:14:30] rolls of film. It's actually not that long. It's only from bay in length of film. It's not that much. Um, but, uh, gay men in Wellington and in New Zealand society offer an enormous lot of different things, but support of things that that that feed the backbone of normal society in the arts and government administration, and in in the cultural and ambient life of Wellington and, um, [00:15:00] it it may not be there forever. It certainly won't be there in the same shape and form. And, um, I can't predict how it's going to go, but, um hey, we're beautiful people. Let's record ourselves.

IRN: 170
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/shall_we_drag.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003877
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089171
TITLE: Shall We Drag
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Colin McLean; Johnny Croskery
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; 1990s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Colin McLean; Johnny Croskery; Polly Filla; Wellington; drag; gay; performance; programme; theatre
DATE: 7 August 1999
YEAR: 1999
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Johnny Croskery and Colin McLean (aka Polly Filla) talk about drag performance.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: When I did drag, it always had to be a bit over the top. Hence the orange hair, which I've always worn. Um, long fingernails. Always always sequins and feathers and things. It was always that type of, um, over the top. Drag for me. Never a Mr Natural. Hardly. It's the type of thing. You go to the supermarket and mhm. Oh, my mother was pretty fine with it. She actually asked [00:00:30] me. I had a to to hang out in my room and she said, Do you do drag? And I was thought, First of all, I was like, No. And then I told her yes. And she she was sort of like, Oh, another one bites the dust because Dad's a cross tree. So, um and then I actually told her how much I get paid for a show. And so she was like, Well, you know, keep doing it. Keep doing it. Um Her philosophy, I think, is just as long as you're happy. So [00:01:00] sometimes she just doesn't. Doesn't want to know. Um, Dad, Dad, Dad has to be OK with it. I mean, he's a cross dresser, because otherwise he'd be a hypocrite. Um although this what I do and what he does are totally separate. He dresses up because he enjoys wearing women's clothes, and I dress up because I enjoy the whole performance aspect side of things. Um, and my brother [00:01:30] thought it was a little bit strange, but he's used to it now. Um, for instance, a couple of weekends ago, I was walking to a bar and drag and an escort pulled up in this, um, Bogan stuck his head out and said, Oh, I think you look pretty good and then sort of honed off in the car and there was sort of like three faces I could see out the back window as the car drove off. Kind of [00:02:00] hear no see, no evil. Speak no evil. Um, and I heard one of the people in the car go, Oh, my God, Who was that? And the driver of the car said, Oh, that's my brother. And then all the drag queens sisters of mine. I turned around and said, Oh, girl, who was that butch thing? I said, Oh, that's my brother. They were like, Oh, yeah, she's a but one, isn't she? So yeah, he handles it pretty well. He always says hi whenever he sees me out. [00:02:30] I think probably the first wonderful thing I can remember was in the early fifties, which would have been just after the war, when people started immigrants started coming into New Zealand. There was this wonderful range of interesting people, and a woman and her husband came to live over the road from us and they were from England [00:03:00] and he was an artist and she was one of these wonderful bleached blonde women with leopard skin coats and plastic shoes and long red fingernails. And I just idolised her because she was like nobody I'd ever seen before. And it was sort of all very film star I and I think she was probably a great influence on my life, really. Um, and I found out that her husband used to to bleach her hair, [00:03:30] which I thought, Oh, I wonder how that done. I made a few inquiries and found out that it was peroxide, So that was it. And from then on I started being a blonde when I was probably about 12 and 13, and then at college, which was Wellington Tech at the time. Um, I was blonde through all those that it was amazing, really, Because the people at school accepted me for what I was. There was never any hassle about it, which was great. [00:04:00] And, um, later on, when I went to, um, primary school reunions and secondary school reunions, they the people there said, Well, you were always one of the girls anyway, John. So it's It's incredible to think that they thought of that and I really had no idea at the time. Yeah, the first recollection I had was when I was five. I've got these two pictures my mother took of me and my best friend Natalie and Mom bought [00:04:30] a whole huge big box of hats home from the Sally Army shop, and they were dressed up hats. And there was this big straw hat and it had huge red roses red, big, fake red roses all over it. And I love that hat. It's just just glamorous. And, you know, she she took this photo of me and Natalie is wearing a man's cap, and I'm wearing this hat and I've got a huge smile on my face, and then Mom sort of said Well, you know, boys don't actually [00:05:00] wear hats like that and sort of swap their hats around. And I've got a big sort of a frown on my face. Yeah, that's sort of when I knew I wasn't, like all the other little boys and girls. I think probably the first drag I ever saw was the Kiwi concert party, which was in the forties, which my mother used to take us kids to them. We adored it. It was all. I mean, all of the the men were were doing women's roles, and it was just wonderful. The full theatrical show, Um, [00:05:30] and I that that fascinated me. I think probably when I think the first time I ever tried drag was when I was 18. Um, it wasn't so. It was just as a fun thing. Um, and it didn't really develop until about the mid sixties. Um, and Wellington really had a very big drag scene right through the sixties and into the seventies. I mean, I can remember, um, being able to name about [00:06:00] 60 people who used to go out every Friday and Saturday night and drag, and that was only the ones I knew so there was considerably more than that. Um, in in town at that time. Yeah, going out and dragged to a gay bar is sort of, you know, you walk in the door, everyone looks at you out for looks at you, make it. Looks like you. Yeah, fine. Next. Because drags been happening, you know, for for for years in in the gay community. [00:06:30] And I find going into a straight bar and drag. They're a lot more appreciative of you. You know, you get people turning around people clapping, wolf, whistling, cheering, um, people coming up and asking you to dance people buying you drinks. Yeah, that's, you know, just fantastic when I get compliments. That is, that's the big payoff that, um, for me that tells me [00:07:00] that what I do is sort of appreciated, and it's good, and it's entertaining. Um, I guess that's where I get my kick. I don't smoke. I don't drink. I don't do drugs. I don't drive. God, um and so that's where I get my buzz. Um, I get my buzz through entertaining people and seeing them having a good time. Because of something that I've done, I get a real buzz out of drag I. I think [00:07:30] it makes me feel something that I'm not. It brings a bit of glamour and fantasy into my life, and I know it does with other people, too, because I know so many people have said, Oh, we love seeing you, Uh, when you go out because you always look glamorous and glittery and it's wonderful to know that you're still able to do it. So I think I think probably there's a lot of giving in it and and drag because I think even if you're not doing the show, you're still doing a performance and it is a performance. [00:08:00] I mean, it's the dress up and it's the walk and probably the talk and everything else, too. I think that's probably what I get out of. And I think they do, too. Yeah, sometimes drag can be really lonely. I mean, you know, you go out and drag. You're sort of this third sex where gay men don't really want to sleep with you because you look like a woman and lesbians don't want to sleep with you because they know that you're a guy and you know that they're a woman. And so, because you're both [00:08:30] not because I'm not a lesbian, I don't sleep with lesbians. Um, so you can It can feel very lonely and isolated. And, um, especially if I'm doing a show. And you can sort of hear people in the audience talking. Um, that means that they're not interested in what you're doing on stage and that you're boring and, um, fear of going stale fear of not feeling [00:09:00] wanted or appreciated. That's that's just the biggest, scariest thing, you know, that you actually have no use because I think it's a It's a basic human need that everyone wants to feel needed and wanted and love for one reason or another. Well, I've never never told my, uh, it's never been an issue. I've never never told my parents that I was gay. They I think, um, I never had any reason to because [00:09:30] I always looked rather different. Um, and I think they see you growing up, and they just accept that as being you. I remember showing my mother photographs of me and she said, Oh, who's this? Isn't she lovely? And I said, Well, that's me She said, Oh, Really? Yes. Yes. So I think she was rather thrilled to think that perhaps I had sort of done it, and it was rather nice, but, um, my sister I've been out with my sister quite a lot. Um, she thinks it's all good fun. Yes. Yes, I think it's fun. [00:10:00] Um, when I was, um, working at Carmen's balcony, um, doing an drag show, Uh, my brother who used to be at college, then him and his friends from school used to come along and see us at night, and his friends thought it was wonderful. One of the boys in their class having a drag queen for a brother. And they used to hoon up on their motorbikes, and a few of us would hop on the back of the motorbikes and go for a burn up around town and drag. And [00:10:30] the most amazing thing happened one night. We, um, had a little accident, and I ended up in the middle of Taranaki street with this huge motorbike sitting on top of me. The first thing I reached for was to make sure my work was still on. Unfortunately, it was drag and stuff with your mind So you you have to be pretty tough. Like when you actually get into it a lot more. Um, it can be a bit of a mind. Fuck. The first few times I did it, it was [00:11:00] you know, it it was really fun and things. Um, and then it sort of becomes more psychological like you start to think. Well, am I a woman? Um, and you get you get a Well, I get a bit paranoid sometimes where people see Polly filler And, you know, I have people come up to me and saying, Oh, you know, come to my party. It's on here at this time and you kind of go, Oh, cool. And they go, Yeah, and where's something fabulous? And that's sort of like hinting, you know, come along and drag. [00:11:30] And you have to start to think whether they're asking you because of who you are or because of what you are. Somebody referred to me a while back, and I thought it was rather beautifully put that I was in a time warp. But, um, I thought that was a compliment because she meant that I still look the same as I did 30 years ago when I was in drag. And to me I like the high heels, plastic front shoes, [00:12:00] tight frocks with fish towels, lots of feathers, sequins and lots and lots of hair and eyelash. And to me, that is drag. And it's not a fashion thing. It's just a a drag thing. And when I look at books, um, from drag queens from America and from England, it's always very theatrical. Well, the ones that appeal to me, uh, and they're of the same type. It's just the the the Hollywood Glam. But yeah, I've been gayish three times. Um, [00:12:30] basically at this on a Saturday night down Courtney Place, um, which is sort of the nightclub street, Um, and basically the same spot. And the strange thing about the three times I've been whacked, um, I wasn't in drag at any time. Um, I was on my platform boats, but that was about it. And I am actually more safer to go down Courtney place [00:13:00] in drag than if I were to walk down Courtney Place as a camp guy because it just seems to me that, um, it's usually the guys that have a problem with it. People can accept a drag queen because you know it. It looks like a woman. It's in the form of a woman. But as soon as you get something that sort of infringes on the boundaries of masculinity, like a guy [00:13:30] that is wearing a dress, not not someone in drag but someone that looks like a guy wearing a dress, Um, they sort of can't handle it. And I guess it's a defence mechanism. It's like, um you know, No, that's That's not right. That's not what a man should be. So we have to shoot that person down for it. Deep down inside, you sort of have this this amazing urge to express yourself by being [00:14:00] fabulous. Um, for me, it was It was sort of a combination of several things, and I did drag, and suddenly all those things made sense. I liked dancing. I liked, um, devising theatre and doing way out performances. Um, I liked making and sewing and designing clothes and costumes. Um, I liked playing around with makeup. [00:14:30] I liked, um, female artist, um, music, dance, music, and things like that. And so sort of doing drag, um, pull them all together I think the first thing I do is to put some wonderful music on, and it's got to be show music, preferably Jerry Herman, like maim or Hello, Dolly or, um, any of those wonderful happy shows And that's that's where it starts for me is, um, it's [00:15:00] the whole process And, um, from there I said, it takes about two hours from woe to go, Um, because having to shave and and make up and glue eyelashes, glue fingernails on, put the wig on the whole thing. It's about about two hours to to get ready completely. But I, I think a wonderful thing is being able to come home and taking the lot off, because that to me, is getting rid of it. It's just putting [00:15:30] the cold cream on and rubbing the whole lot of all over the face and thinking, Oh, my God, think what this was like half an hour before and then you're back to reality. But that's part of it. Which is fun, I think. Yeah, I usually think about what I I have to do or think about drag when I'm walking from my house to where I'm performing at. That's usually the time I do it. And, um, or else when I'm putting my makeup on, [00:16:00] I think, What show am I doing tonight? What aspect am I trying to to convey to the audience? Am I trying to convey happiness and joy? Um, you know, I might put on a pink blusher and paint my smile a bit bigger. Or am I trying to convey anger and fear? And I might sort of arch my eyebrows a lot more. Um, yeah, it's all about sort of thinking [00:16:30] how I want to portray myself to other people, and it sort of goes into the way that I mould myself. I was, um, display artist. That was my job when I was young. And, um, I used to be able to get hold of the models wigs when they were thrown out. I used to use those because we couldn't get wigs in those days. And, um, because model's heads were much smaller than a human head, so we used to have to split them up the side and sew them together. And [00:17:00] an arrangement of flowers and feathers went on that part. And also too, with, um, with making false eyelashes that had to be done because you couldn't buy those. I'd even heard of people making, um, false fingernails nails out of fish scales, which to me, sounds rather amazing, but, um, I was told it worked. Well, um, I remember having wanted a pair of, uh, platform shoes many, many years ago before they were available. So I got a pair of ordinary shoes [00:17:30] and put a piece of, um, carved a piece of four by two and glued that on to the bottom and a huge big six inch nail out of the heel and then fibreglass it all together. So I had the most amazing platform shoes. I think they're probably one of the first pairs in Wellington. So But I, I think this is a part of the New Zealand thing is to make do I mean even drag queens do it as well as farmers. Yeah, [00:18:00] I find that on my way home, everything feels like it's shrinking. Um, my shoes feel very tight and very heavy. The gloves feel like they're constricting. And what? Whatever I'm wearing begins to hurt. Um, the pads that I used to pad up my bra, I sort of began to dig in, and by the time I get home, I just have to rip it all off and take the makeup off and then sort of [00:18:30] start breathing again, as as a person. I guess I would really like to say to young people, I I'm very anti-drug and I think that you don't really need drugs because I think drag is a drug and I think that can be far more fun and have be far less devastating on you. And you can come back to reality the next day without a hangover or whatever it is you get from nasty drugs. I think it's far more fun [00:19:00] just to do what what you like doing. But be safe about it, Yeah, such a feelings coming over me.

IRN: 162
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/speaking_out.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003878
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089172
TITLE: Speaking Out
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; Aotearoa New Zealand; employment; homosexual law reform; media; programme; radio
DATE: 5 April 1999
YEAR: 1999
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast two broadcasters talk about being gay in the media.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: As a gay person, I've never pushed that. It's never been important to me that I was gay or straight in any of the things that I've been presenting in the way I did my job except the time when it meant something as an overall picture like the homosexual law reform bill. [00:00:30] But it's never been something that I have set out to push because in some ways I believe that the less fuss you make of it, once you've won certain positions, the list, it stands out as something to be ridiculed or fought, or UM [00:01:00] or or to be made an issue of before we have legality. It certainly had to be made an issue of, but it's like it's like the Maori pakeha situation. I feel the stronger you make each of the sides, the less you have a total. And in some ways the gay thing fitting into a straight community [00:01:30] works best. I think if people don't have to say they're gay or whatever, because it will be accepted in my career as a broadcaster, it's been pretty well accepted for me all the way through. I've never had to worry about stress. That's been caused me because of my work on radio. Some people may have had that. I don't know. But from my point [00:02:00] of view, I've never had to try and cut out something. When I get on radio. That is part of my private life. Um, that may also be because of the acceptance thing being in theatre and radio at the time I was didn't really give me a hard time. And so I've never had to in a commercial radio, uh, situation where you have so many macho sounding [00:02:30] people and everything I've never had to, um I've never had to fight for what I what I had or what I wanted to be. But then I was not overtly gay. So maybe there was just no problem there. Who knows if I if I had been an effeminate Fay person, maybe I'd have had a hell of a time. I don't know. [00:03:00] Um, so I've never had to to change myself on air to cope with something like that. Most people on the radio anyway that I've worked with don't give themselves completely away. I'm not suggesting they're all hiding something. I'm not saying that, but I don't think many of us are [00:03:30] prepared to give away our complete personality. We want to keep a bit for ourselves. And I suppose ultimately the personality you develop for the radio is what we were always told. What they wanted was a pleasant, warm, friendly voice. Those were the words they always use pleasant, warm, friendly. And it's an old cliche. But we were told when I was a young announcer that you were a guest who'd been invited into somebody's home. And so you behaved yourself. Uh, so I never tried to [00:04:00] be, um, intrusive. I never tried to talk too much about myself, not because I was hiding anything, but because I thought I don't think people tuned in to hear me talk about myself. They wanted to hear me talk about other things that were interesting to them. I can't say why I haven't pushed the Gay Barrow. It may be, it may be, If I'd been given a really rough time, [00:04:30] I would have felt I had the fight. In which case I may well have come back with something. Um, because I'm not a political person, I. I really Hm. I really don't have enough interest in those sorts of things. In a way, I don't know whether that's selfish or not, but right now I can't see when I'm when I'm on air broadcasting. [00:05:00] I'm just me. I'm just a person, and I follow the philosophy, which I've which was taught to me and which I always believe, is that you're talking to just one other person by and large. And so that's the way I communicate through a microphone. I'm talking to you, uh, about myself, or about what I'm playing, or about something that's in the news or whatever. And if it's a gay thing that I'm talking about, then I just treat it like that. But I feel I have [00:05:30] an insight in it to maybe add something to it if I want to, Um, without seeming like I'm pushing a barrow or forcing something down someone's throat, those people who are noticeably gay and who um presumably they are aware of the fact that when people see them walking down the street or hear them talking or observe their gestures, they think that person is gay. Uh, I think those people are tremendously brave, Um, because they [00:06:00] just get on with life. Um, but the fact is that, uh, gay people who don't exhibit those, uh, tendencies who who don't who can't, uh, be picked out as being gay. They're not necessarily being dishonest. It's just the way they are. Music fascinated me. Um, in the same way that that you you read about people [00:06:30] that suddenly you you found out were gay. You say, Hey, that's amazing. Music was a bit like that, too. I remember the first time I heard one of the first homosexual songs I heard was Charles, the French singer who was a a lover of Edith PF at one stage, uh, singing a song called What Makes a Man About a Guy who lives with his mom in Paris, I suppose, and, uh, he's a gay person and and [00:07:00] what his life is like and he goes out and and associates with people who are like himself, and it makes it. It makes it sound that that sort of liaison is quite sleazy. And he asks the question, Um um, why, why? How can anyone judge what makes a man a man? And I thought, God, this is This is a song which is in support of homosexuality. Um, and and it's saying that it's virtually like saying what the song from [00:07:30] LA says, I am what I am And, uh, I I felt wonderful when I used to hear things like that really good. And I got a chance to play it once or twice, and I would use it and say it. Well, I suppose I it's I suppose life could have been very complicated, Um, if I wish to make it that way. But, uh, I think there are a lot of gay people who feel that, um uh, it's nobody else's business apart from their own [00:08:00] what they're like and that other people don't want to know about anyway. And, um, they would just much rather get on with their lives, um, and not go about, um, making a big drama of the fact that they're they're gay. Because if you do that, I think you could make life a little bit more a little bit more difficult for yourself. Maybe. I think the the the see the thing that is that, um, has always concerned me much more is is justice for gay people. That's [00:08:30] really what is what, uh, has been, uh, uh at the back of my thinking all the time. Um, and I didn't ever come across as far as I was. Any Any examples of injustice? No. But, uh uh, it must still exist, but I've been very fortunate working in an area where I work with very educated people, Um, who have got first class minds, and with people like that, you don't come across [00:09:00] prejudice very much. It sounds, doesn't as if I'm sort of living in cuckoo land, but that's genuinely what it's been like as far as being What's the word? Not an icon. An example for someone who's younger who might be coming out. Um, hard to say this in a way. [00:09:30] I've never felt that I've really been that big enough a name to have had influence on people. I think in some ways, that's why I've never been got as far as truth or those newspapers were concerned if they suddenly had a story or an angle on somebody, if they'd had an angle on me being a person who was gay, it probably wouldn't have been newsworthy, so they probably wouldn't have bothered. And I [00:10:00] suppose That's the way I felt about it, Um, being an example for younger people or whatever, there's been no real reason to to push myself out and up. But that's also partly to do with with my own philosophy about saying that I don't think one should be different from the other. In a sense, it should all be part of a mix. And once you don't have to push for certain things, then maybe you don't push for certain things. [00:10:30] I don't think it was. I don't think it was protecting my position. I don't think that's what I was doing. I just think probably that it it maybe didn't feel that important to me. Or maybe I just didn't have anything to say or know how to say it. Really, Um, I was just happy being what I [00:11:00] was. People shouldn't change what they are. Be happy with your voice. Be happy with your gestures. Be happy with the way you walk and the way you talk and what have you, Um, and, uh, if it bothers other people? Well, it's their lives, isn't it? [00:11:30] I was working on one radio station when there was a series of events in the town that had nothing to do with the radio station at all. Um, but, uh, there was a whole series of court cases of gay men being taken to court, and it was just awful. Uh, several of the local businessmen were were, um, appeared in court, and the atmosphere in that town was truly, truly dreadful. And this was [00:12:00] at a time when, um, not many gay people were actually being taken to court. But in this, I think it must have reflected, to some extent, the thinking of the local police, I suppose. Uh, but the atmosphere in the town was absolutely awful. Um, And when the homosexual law reform bill was passed, I remember thinking, Thank God that sort of situation won't happen again. It [00:12:30] was bad for everybody. It was not. It was bad, not only for gay people. It was just bad for everybody. Because what happened was that once you start once rumours start, once two or three prominent local businessmen have appeared in court. Then the rumours start and there were so many names were mentioned. He's going to be up in court next week. Um, and it was just a dreadful, dreadful time to go through. I've never really had nasty moments because [00:13:00] of my gayness at all. I've been really, really lucky because you hear people talk about some of the terrible things they've been through, and I've been really fortunate with that. Like when I was doing the Children's programme video dispatch on television in the eighties. That was the time that the homosexual law reform bill suddenly became an issue. And I was doing things like putting my name to those huge advertisements where all sorts of people were putting in their names, supporting [00:13:30] the homosexual law reform bill. And, uh, I did one of my programmes one day and came off air. And the producer David called me through and said, We've seen your name on one of these ads in the newspaper and I said, Yeah, I said, I, I, um, I find it's one way I said, What's happening now is I'm a gay person, I said, And I'm living with a gay person at the moment in a really, really happy and important relationship for me, [00:14:00] and the one way that I can help in doing something like this is to do these small things without actually suddenly turning it into a whole flood of, of of how you feel because it was a kids programme I was involved with. I felt I had to be more careful and I thought, by doing things like marching in the marches and by putting my name to these particular ads and things, then I was I was doing something that people might notice and see that might be important to them and was adding to [00:14:30] the overall picture of support for the homosexual law reform bill. And so I said, I said all this to them and they said, OK, well, we'll support you if anything comes up. And I thought that was fantastic of them to say that really as far as New Zealand is concerned, there's no doubt that the the the the the crucial thing has been the passing of the homosexual law reform bill. And if you're not young enough to remember that, [00:15:00] um, I don't think you could, you could comprehend the difference that's made to our society. You'd have to use your imagination a lot. I think the the the the the difference has been so profound it is I. I would love now to be a young gay man of 14 starting out again. I would love that because it would be so different. It'd be so different. [00:15:30] So any regrets? Oh, no, II. I belong to the old fashioned school that says What did say I regret nothing.

IRN: 173
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/sailor.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003879
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089173
TITLE: Sailor
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Douglas Jenkin; Gavin McLean; Steve Danby
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Douglas Jenkin; Gavin McLean; Steve Danby; Wellington; beats; cabin boy; cowboy; cruising; entrapment; fantasize; fantasy; gay; icons; programme; sailor; sex; steward
DATE: 20 September 1998
YEAR: 1998
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this programme we explore the iconic figure of the sailor in rainbow culture. The programme also looks at sexual activity around the wharfs and on the beats.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: They're sort of like sort of satanic Vienna boys choir boys. I suppose in a way, they're sort of, um the uniform is stereotypically attractive. It's white, which is suggests something sort of pure, which they certainly aren't. Hopefully, in fact, I can recall. And, um, someone who I, um who how do I do? I have to use polite words. Well, someone whose cherry eye popped, [00:00:30] um, at request decades ago who wore, um, sailor pans for the occasion, which I thought was sweet. There's this whole big fantasy area around two in a hammock. Captains and cabin boys, Um, guys dressed up as what they used to call mollies, I think in the 18th century, um, which [00:01:00] is like one of those sort of a retroactive paint by numbers thing. You know, um, we'd like it to have been this way. Now we don't know Jack shit about what went on in sailing vessels up until the middle of the 19th century. We know all about what goes on there. Now, um, there's an assumption that put small boys or young men into environment with [00:01:30] with older, more brutalised guys. And B Will bonk a, um in a commonplace basis is based on a very 20th century view of how human beings operate. That is to say that human beings are substantively Amoral without values and will do whatever the plumbing tells them to do on the day. It's a very 20th century way of looking at things, [00:02:00] Um, and I'm not convinced that the reality lived up to the fantasy in any way. I mean, quite aside from the fact that go and see Amistad and tell me that you want to have an affair with a sailor, find out about life on one of the ships that Columbus took across the North Atlantic or Or or Vasco de Gama took around the south of the American, Um, is and and it's a horrifying, [00:02:30] unpleasant, revolting lifestyle. Um, you've got scurvy. You've got all this crap going on. It's not. It's neither my idea of an environment for a romantic trust or for a particularly satisfying sexual encounter of any kind. But maybe I'm a little strange. Yeah, uh, I I don't think fact should ever get in the way of good fantasy. And, uh, it's like cowboys. Now there. There are cowboys. Uh, but they're probably far, [00:03:00] far more important to the world as fantasy figures than they've ever been. And as workers when I was in Amsterdam, um, I went to, um, some sailor old sailor bars from 1700 something in, um, I straight off Times Square, where I was staying in there was, like, erotic and like like a sexual museum and erotic museum. Because you opened the door to all of the bars on the same street and then inside the door, [00:03:30] there was a red curtain to keep the draught out because it was cold. And then there was just a bar, a wooden curved bar and a bare wooden floor. And they're all exactly the same. And it was sexy because it would have been like that all that time ago, and it would have been filled with sailors. And that was nice. And I gave you a little sort of because it was like it was real, and it was still being used for the same purpose. It was still sexual. Um, it was amusing. And if you understand the idea of erotic amusement, it was entertaining. It was titillating. [00:04:00] So I mean, that history is still evident um, it's got a nice, hungry, sort of woolfish tone. Um, and you could smell it in the wood. You know, it was like a nice, um, I probably had sort of layers of historic seamen. So, um, you know, I felt at home. It was nice. Very little has been written about, uh, the cabin boy in nonfiction. Although he's a stock figure of, uh, an [00:04:30] enormous amount of, uh, light fiction. There does seem to have been, um, some basis in history for the, um the image that's grown out of both the cabin boy and perhaps more importantly, the stewards. Now, the stewards and the New Zealand Merchant Marine were often, um, stereotyped as being gay. And there seems to have been quite a bit of reality to that much in the same way that there's, um I think a popular conception about cabin [00:05:00] crew with modern aircraft. Certainly the cabin boy would have been one of the most attractive and young people aboard the ship he would have been attending. Um, a number of people and there would have been, I imagine, um, an element of the father. So there would be quite a quite a um, almost Greek relationship. One of the appeals for the [00:05:30] gay audience in the Sailor icon is that sailors, historically and probably back to the year dot have had this interesting sexual status where they're like guys in prison or particularly in, so far as all these guys crammed into these physically enclosed spaces. Um, the entire world turns [00:06:00] a blind eye if you like. And that's a naval thing, isn't it? That's Lord Nelson to, um, to the homosexuality that goes on on the ships. It's assumed to happen, whether it does or it doesn't. The assumption is that if you've got all these guys thrown onto these into these little tin boxes floating around in the oceans, that they're all going to be boing each other frantically. And I think that assumption is spread throughout the whole of society in a sort of silent way, whether it's true [00:06:30] or not. Um, one of the funny things that gay men have to put up with is that an awful lot of their learning about the world comes through sideways channels like pornography or advertising things where and and as a consequence, quite a distorted worldview can occur. I think um, we pick up things that we don't that aren't necessarily [00:07:00] there or that aren't necessarily true. Every time you see a photographic image of hoo photographic image of sailor or sailors, um, it reinforces a subtle message that this goes on in this environment, and I'm not sure that it does. There's a wonderful German film which is around called, um, by Wolfgang Peterson called The Boat or Das Boot, which has, um a whole lot of men are confined [00:07:30] to a submarine for weeks on end. I mean, what could be six here? They're confined in a small space. Um, they're isolated from women when they're at sea. Um, their clothes are designed to emphasise their advantages, So they're obviously an object of, um of last. [00:08:00] This was one of the few securely male communities where you could, uh, spend most of your time surrounded by males being in a domestic situation with them. So even if there wasn't always overt sexual, uh, relations between two men, there were some people who certainly enjoyed being around men at sea in confined conditions, and even when they came ashore, they were usually at [00:08:30] waterside bars or they were working amongst dock workers. It was a very male and not entirely detached community, but one where you could certainly be out of the mainstream. The whole idea of the camaraderie and the sexual tension is is amusing. You know, um, it suggests sort of something dirty and rough rather than sort of white sheets, which I find attractive. One of the attractions of the sailor, Certainly prior to gay law reform as an idea was that [00:09:00] I guess put on the blunter terms. If you bumped into one in the pub and you wanted to pick him up, at least he'd understand what you were talking about, Which wouldn't necessarily be true. Um, of a member of the clergy or the army or the medical profession. Doesn't really think about it, really, does it? Um, yeah. So, So so a. A certain degree of communication might be possible, and and the other [00:09:30] thing is, OK, so what this means is that guys in prison and sailors were amongst the two unofficially legally sanctioned locations for homosexuality to take place between certain types of men. There's an understanding that you don't have to go, and you don't have to ask them out on a date. You don't have to have dinner. You can just do it. And I think men understand that with each other more than men [00:10:00] and women might. And that's probably because of the socialisation, rather than it being a natural thing in men and women. Maybe it is the same with some men and women, But, I mean, I know that most men understand if you give them a certain look and they return that certain look, there will be some action in about 40 seconds. So, um, that's always been there. And sailors are the most likely. You know. They're the most likely to respond appropriately. No mucking her in. I like it. I don't think it's nice. I mean it. [00:10:30] It it's contrary to respectable, which is always an advantage when it comes to sex. I mean, formal, civilised sex is is sounds like a church service. To me, the sort of the the idea of sort of like sort of up against the ball stuff is sort of like sailors, as like um, you know, spontaneous sort of raw. And, um, people love it. I mean, that's why we have six on site venues that simulate beats. We have that simulate [00:11:00] darkness that simulate roughness. Um, some people like being pushed up against walls. Some people like pushing people over against war. Remember? Like doing both sailors? Um, were probably also the same as the dock workers. I mean, there was a around our waterfronts, a very large and now almost completely vanished male [00:11:30] physical environment. I mean, there were huge numbers of people on the on the waterfront. There were seven or 8000 wharf alone 20 years ago in New Zealand and several 1000 sailors. Then you had the harbour board employees again, all entirely masculine and many of those people doing physical labour. And you've had lots of young men semi na in the summer days. And yes, people would stroll down there, they would look, um, they would probably buy them beers in places like Chicks Hotel and Port Chalmers. [00:12:00] In the fifties, the beat there were about I think there were 14 parts to the beat between the wharf and Courtney Place, and certainly the people who were the sailors from ships would have known about the the beats on the wharf, which were there until the eighties. Um they were closed. Um, so there was a circuit going around the whole way around, um, from down by where [00:12:30] the railway station is around the place where the Taj Mahal is. That used to be a public toilet back around to the wharf. And and that was a a circuit that people did. Um, only 24 hours. Um, and I know from recollections of older men that the police used to go around it regularly, and then someone on a bike would go and tell people that they were doing it. And they those guys would all go to the one the police had just been to. So the police would go around the whole foot and there'd be nobody there, and they'll be all following [00:13:00] them around the the circuit. Um, also, during World War two, men from the of the same age would take men, um, at Mount Victoria to, um for walks on a summer evening. Um and also I heard I don't know if it's true that they wore bow ties with a red and green light in them so that the if they were busy, the the green light would be red light would be on if they were available. The green light would be on. But that sounds extreme, but why not? So, um, you know, I mean, sailors [00:13:30] always have a friend, and they get things for nothing. You know, people buy them drinks, people feed them, they have sex with them. I mean, all you have to do is put the uniform on, you're in. So it's sort of like, you know, an international passport. The pleasure. Maybe the sailor is sort of like the ultimate icon of the free spirit male. So, like the cowboy or the motorcyclist, he's one of those icons of Firstly, I mean obviously the unmarried male, um, the sexually available [00:14:00] male, who's who's on the road, who's who's a transient. So he's There are advantages to to to having affairs with transient and so far as it's got a finite duration and they bugger off at the end of it and you're not stuck with them. And for a lot of people, I think that's a nice type of fantasy if you're trapped, if you're feeling trapped in a relationship, and I guess everybody who's in a relationship feels trapped sometimes, um, or you feel that relationships [00:14:30] in themselves are traps, then those sorts of fantasy figures. Your truck driver. There's another one. maybe they're gonna They work in that way and and that there's something to aspire to Women I knew used to fuck sailors. And then, um, and that was always amusing because they make it into a huge romantic drama which didn't seem to me at all necessary, because I had no Qun whatsoever with just doing it for the sake of doing it without having to pretend there was anything cosmic involved. But they seem to somehow I want to make our drama. Um, [00:15:00] and that was quite funny. There's a really interesting disjuncture that goes on between the iconography and and the images that we get thrown at us in the media, the fantasies that are fed to us and that we buy into, um, and how an awful lot of them are really anachronistic. Like, um, the Marlborough Man is a classic example. I mean, firstly, because I mean, the heyday of the Cowboy was about 10 years in the 18 seventies, and then it was over. [00:15:30] And yet, to this very day, we get cowboy movies and cowboys on television and that whole Western thing and the sailors things a bit like that. Like up until about 40 years ago, there were hundreds of W and stevedores and cooks and stewards and sailors. And now, with you know, the change to containerized shipping and so forth, and with the collapse of large navies, the number of sailors around has dropped right away. [00:16:00] So although the the image of of the sailor, the the the the you know, blonde haired, blue eyed, muscle bound bimbo and the dress whites or the little blue sailor suit, um, is really present before us, you can go for years without actually ever seeing one. so it's become like a remote thing. It's it's become it's become one of those dead images, like the Knight in Shining Armour. [00:16:30] That's probably more fantasy than fact. Um, but there is a certainly a well documented kernel of truth. Uh, some American and European gay historians in the last decade have looked at the role of homosexuality in the pirate community in the Caribbean. Um, they've also looked at the Dutch Dutch East India company in the 18th century, where it was considered [00:17:00] uh, sufficient A problem by the company directors for them to have recorded it, uh, in in a great deal of detail. Uh, it's fairly logical. When you think of the amount of time that men would have spent together in the days of sail, it could often be at sea for up for two years at a time. Very seldom touch in court because they didn't need to refuel. They were powered by the wind. If people were out trading, uh, they would spend very little time in the contact of women. So I think there would have been an element of people enjoying themselves, [00:17:30] Uh, out of sight of land. The US Navy during the first World War. Um, ran a whole campaign. Somebody got a big in a bonnet that homosexuality was a problem in the US navy. So the US navy, or some part of the US navy decided to do something about this and to set up an entrapment programme. So they recruited all these pretty new bi young sailors and sent them out looking for gay men or for homosexuals or whatever you call them [00:18:00] at the time. Inverts, I suppose. Uranian, um and they. So what they basically did was they set up this network of a provocateur and raised all the the things that normally go with that. So you got all the you had all these state trained, quasi prostitutes going out, trying to roll guys in order to throw them out of the Navy, which is revolting, um, in itself. And then it becomes even more revolting [00:18:30] when the Navy throws the book at its own stooges. So all the guys who were recruited for this loathsome programme were then cashiered or whatever the equivalent is from the United States. Navy lost their pension rights. Many of them were prosecuted, um, for just following orders And that that happened in 1917. Uh, and I guess I guess the interesting thing about that is, um, the problem that they caused [00:19:00] the amount of homosexuality that they generated greatly exceeded any amount that they actually found. Um, which rather begs the question. Really? Tom and Finland did some very nice drawings of sailors early on his career [00:19:30] in the forties, during the war. Tom of Finland. I can't remember what his real name is. Um, during the blackouts in Europe, learned to draw uniforms by touch. And there's a very nice bit in his biography, um, where he, um, was at a bus stop or a tram stop and where whatever city he was, he was in in Europe, and, um, it was full of men in military uniform, and he backed up to one of them. One of them moved into his hands, and he jerked them off at the bus stop or the train stop without anyone knowing, because it was black or dark. And this sort [00:20:00] of thing happened all the time. The beauty about the sailor from Tom of Finland's point of view is again the frock. Um, a snuggly fitting garment, which drapes as a sailor's blouse does, um, is a gift. The tight trousers with the flared cuffs and everything, bell bottoms and everything, the good things to work with as a draughtsman. There's plenty going on there. You've got that thing that Roland Bart talks about, about the ambivalence of where the garment [00:20:30] gapes. You've got a garment that simultaneously the guy's clothes, and he's undressed at the same time. It's fabulous from a from an erotic point of view. Those uniforms are traditionally extremely sexy. And one of the first uses of the t-shirt, the tight trousers with the flares, Um, the the caps, I mean, standard stock image of usually very sexy young men, particularly in the Navy. I mean, in the Merchant Marine, you'd see people from [00:21:00] very wide age groups. But in the Navy, there would be two or 300 men in their late teens through to late twenties, on a particularly large ship. And when those people had put on Mass, then they certainly would have turned heads. And it's that interesting thing, too, about uniforms as degradation that if you look at naval officers, uniforms, the grown ups, clothes, sailors wear pyjamas, they wear kids clothes. They're actually, [00:21:30] um, diminished by what they wear. So you get the sort of double vision going on of a man dressed as a child, particularly as we often dress Children or not. Nowadays, of course, although you still see it in sailor suits, Um, so you've got that whole aspect to the sailor image that it's a man dressed as a child. You find continually in, uh, gay iconography, a limited range of uniforms, sailors, hard hat [00:22:00] men. I just think of some of the pop groups. I mean, they're they're easy to do. The the uniforms aren't complicated if if you're required to go and dress up, they're usually sexy and they emphasise masculinity. It can be linked to, um, upper class and middle class men idealising working class men's bodies and appearance because they have lost that they've had that civilised out of them. That to be middle class means to be somewhat less than masculine because of your appearance and your job and you're soft. So [00:22:30] I think there's a There's a looking for some masculinity and images or ideas of sort of inverted commas brutishness from somewhere else, because they, um you know, they've lost it. The first day of the power cuts in Auckland, some of the guys were in the same leather club as I am, [00:23:00] and I walked up Queen Street, which was in darkness, and there were fire engines and things, and there were groups of Mexican sailors. They were just absolutely beautiful. I mean, the little and dark, which is my type. And, um, I mean, if I saw them and I said to the guys I was with I mean, I just want a six pack, you know? I mean, this is perfect. They're so beautiful. And they immediately said hello to us because we were just neither. And they recognised us as being maybe from the same. They recognised that. We [00:23:30] were sort of, I don't know, there was something we had in common. And, um, the guy should have given them free passes to our club, but they didn't, you know, I suppose a bit shy, but they were, um, very young and very sweet, and they didn't have very nice costumes. And I mean, like, costumes, uniforms. So I mean, you know, out of the mist. There it is. I mean, it still happens. Do your.

IRN: 166
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/robert_gant.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003880
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089174
TITLE: Robert Gant
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: John Sullivan
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: Chris Brickell; John Sullivan; Manly Affections (book); Robert Gant; Wairarapa; Wellington; arts; images online; photography; visual arts
DATE: 15 November 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast John Sullivan talks about the photography of Robert Gant.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: OK. Well, I'm John Sullivan. I'm the curator of the photographic archive at the Alexander Turnbull Library. Um, been here about 35 years. And that's me, Um, Robert Gant. Robert Gant was a chemist. He was born in England around about 18. 54. Um, his father was a chemist, and I believe his grandfather also a Robert Ghent. A Robert seems to have been a family name. Was a surgeon. [00:00:30] He came out here in the late 19th century. He worked as a chemist. Um, he he actually he was a cousin of Alfred Hill, the, um, the musician and and the hill family who were very active in amateur theatricals. He trained as a chemist. Um, he worked with Mr Britton of Britain's chemists who were on, um, in in Manor Street in Wellington for many years. He set up his [00:01:00] own business in Grey Town, probably in the late 19th century. But he retired to live in, um, which is where he died in 1936 but as well as, uh, being a chemist, um, he had played a very prominent part in theatricals in In in Wellington. And we have a number of newspaper articles, which, um, reminiscences of other, um, thespians, as they call themselves, which recall his role. Apparently, he had a very nice tenor voice. [00:01:30] Um, he could use the falsetto role very well and was very much favoured, um, to play female parts and, um, things like Gilbert and Sullivan and in English of the time. So that's Robert G. Yeah, um, we don't actually know. I mean, I have no can find no record of his actually exhibiting his photography. We believe that the two albums that we have were mostly taken [00:02:00] by Gand and being a chemist. Um, it's very likely that he did know about photography because the pharmacists were the people who sold the photographic chemicals and the photographic equipment. And, um, it was in the pharmaceutical trade journals that, um, photographic news was actually dispersed in the late 19th century. So we believe that he was actually a photographer. The two albums we have, it didn't come [00:02:30] from G himself. They came from descendants of the Blackburn family. Um, of who? Um the, uh the Blackburn concerned was obviously a friend of G. And the photographs, um, mostly of young men. Um I think the best way to describe it is disporting themselves. Um, they Some of them are dressed in female attire. They're they're sort of, um, taking part in tableau, um, linked around each other. And, um, you know, captions of the time [00:03:00] as well as, um, landscapes and photographs taken on gents, um, trip back to England. I would appear I don't know exactly when that was the albums themselves. We've described them as reports on the fact I've got our cataloguing records here. And the description is, if I can just look at one of these two albums of photographs taken mainly in master in about 18 87 [00:03:30] 18 90 probably by Robert Ghent. Most photographs of individual men and groups of men often posed in tableaux and including men dressed as women. Many subjects appear to be homosexual men. Most photographs have captions, and, you know, some landscapes. Seems so that we we never presume when we're doing a description. Um, we don't try to, uh, even if we see, for example, a man, a woman and a child walking along the street in front [00:04:00] of you, we'll be a little bit careful before we say it's a family group because it may well not be so. We will always give an indication of what we think the subject matter may be. But we don't try to make overt prescriptions or put put pigeon holes on on what we're describing. Um, on the other hand, you know, we have an obligation to, um to indicate to researchers in any particular area where they may find, um, material of interest. So we'll just give an indication to people, um, who [00:04:30] who may be interested in looking at the history of homosexuality in New Zealand that they may well find material which is of interest to them here. That probably, um, is about all I can say about the Gand albums. We find the most unique. You know, we haven't, actually, um, got many albums, like Like this, um, which shows sort of men socialising together. And and and And in this manner, um, I mean, you, you know, you've got, um, albums of, um, men who are forced [00:05:00] by the conditions of their employment, um, to be together in their own company for a long time. Bushman, um, people working on surveying camps, people working in the logging industry in the back country. Um, but this seems to be more by choice, you know, than by than by, um, by than by circumstance, which is what makes it a really interesting, um, pair of albums. Do you know how the album survived in the family? No, I don't know that, uh, I do know [00:05:30] that they were obviously passed, you know, from not necessarily from father to son, but I think it it it it it sort of moved slightly sideways through the family. Is, is is is the best way I can say it, but they had they they obviously had been prized. Um, and, um, kept in one play in one piece, you know, so that they definitely had meaning for the family. Which is quite interesting in a way. Because you may think in a conventional family, the notion [00:06:00] that, um, one of their ancestors was, um, involved in sort of associations, which may well turn more conventional times later on. Appeared to be a little bit shameful, weren't considered such to this family. And I think that's all credit to them. Yeah. What do they think of the albums now? Um, I think the the the the the family. Um, they're clear. I think there's a considerable amount of pride in In in the albums. [00:06:30] Can you just paint a wee picture of what it was like in the 18 eighties in New Zealand? Was I mean, was photography widespread? Uh, who was doing it? How were they doing it? I suppose the practicalities of it photography was getting more widespread in the 18 eighties. Um, you'd got past the days of the wet plate camera where the photographer had to sort of coat the negative and put it in the camera and expose it and develop it. While it was still wet in the pitch dark. [00:07:00] You were getting, um, factory prepared plates, which were the equivalent of a roll of film. And there were photography was being done by professionals, obviously, whether port photographers or landscape or employed by the government, and also by sort of enthusiastic amateurs. And sometimes they blurred the lines, and you will may well have had people in occupations such as pharmacy, where photography would come naturally because, I mean they were selling [00:07:30] photographic materials and they would be called upon to give advice to amateurs. Um, so they um would probably have to take it up just in order to keep their hand. And, um, we only have the prints here so we don't have the plates, But it's highly likely that these were being taken on half plate and quarter plate cameras. I would say, um, which means that the negatives were either roughly 3. 5 3 and a quarter by four and a quarter [00:08:00] inches or 4. 5 by 6. 5 inches, which were the common amateur formats of the time. And they would have been taken on a large bellows camera, you know, with a with a tripod. Um, he would probably have developed them himself. Um, the prints are albu prints, which means that they're on what is the equivalent of an EML paper, which has been coated with egg white and in which the, um, photographic emulsion is laid. I think it was slightly salty [00:08:30] egg white, which was sensitised with silver nitrate, and that sort of produces the silver chloride on the surface. Um, I think that the material that we have from the 18 eighties is is a mixture of bona fide professionals, total amateurs um, often sort of family shots and sometimes sort of not very well developed. And people who tend to straddle the line between the two, um, people who sort of made the real professionals a bit cross because they were [00:09:00] taking work away from them. But, um, we have a a few people like that, actually very good photographers who never actually hung out their shingle to say they were a photographer. But their work is so widespread that you know that they were producing for other people. I don't think Robert G was one of those, but his work was, I think of, uh, of a high quality. So no photography wasn't rare at that stage. It was becoming quite established. And shortly after that, um, you got the Kodak arrive. In fact, the Kodak might even have been around at that stage. [00:09:30] But, um, I think that he was probably working with with glass plates at that time. At that time. Was it expensive, uh, to do photography? Yes. It certainly wasn't something that, um it was It was the preserve of the middle classes. It certainly wasn't something that, um, the working class could take up at that stage you had to be committed. It's not something. It's not something you did casually. Um, [00:10:00] I think it would be on the level of, um, being interested in high and getting a good, um, stereo system at the present moment. If you wanted to do it, you would save up to do it. Um, it wasn't just a lifestyle accessory. Is it possible to go through some of the images that we've got got on the website and just talk talk about some of the detail? Well, here you've got, um, four men, um, dressed in, um, [00:10:30] the costume of the time. They're striking a pose. The chap on the left is a very short man. I you know, honestly, I don't know if that's or not. Um, what strikes me is that this is at the time before you got trick Clarisa pressed in your trousers. They all their clothes are all very tight fitting, Um, in a way that probably seems rather unflattering to us. Um, it's also interesting to me is that that body shapes change over time and that these guys, um, haven't been to the gym, you know, they haven't got the big shoulders [00:11:00] and the narrow waists that is considered to be sort of desirable today, they're all sort of fairly pear shaped. But that would have been, um, your typical physique of the time. Um, men always wore a waistcoat as well as a jacket. And what's quite interesting is that, um, the two chaps on the left here have actually done their jackets right up to the neck, um, to actually cover the West Coast. And I suspect that that was a bit of a joke. Um, a couple of them have also [00:11:30] got watch chains, and they're all wearing hats in this case, bowler hats, which is also quite common at the time. Um, what else have we here? Um, three young men, um, sitting in a very elaborate Victorian living room with their arms clefts around each other. Um, that is an unusual pose. Um, the, um going from the bottom, you have a man sort [00:12:00] of lying on the floor, lying in the arms of the man kneeling behind him, who is, um, cradling his head in his hands and leaning his cheek to his head. And the man seated in the chair behind him has his hand over the ear of the, um, chap below and that that that level of the touching of the head is is not common in in photographs of the time and sort of shows a level of intimacy which you don't often see in photographs of the period again, they're all, um, [00:12:30] all, um very well and formally dressed, Um, leather shoes, um, sort of plus four trousers, waist coats and jackets. Um, they're inside. So they're not wearing hats. Actually, it was actually taking photographs inside was actually quite difficult. This was probably taken with the flash. Um, the background is very dark. If you had to read that photograph as what it's actually saying What? What would your interpretation be? My interpretation, um, [00:13:00] would be that these were three men who were It looks a very natural pose, actually, um, they they're not, um, ashamed to show, um, their intimacy. Um, I don't think they're joking, actually. I mean, it doesn't look like a jokey photograph, which, you know, the sort of savage club thing. Um, and I think this is a very natural post and that these, um, are three young men who I would describe as very close friends. You know, it's it's it's I I'm not [00:13:30] sufficiently familiar with the mores of the time to be able to go any further than that. But you know, these These are the three young men who are very obviously very intimately connected, connected with each other. Yeah, I don't It doesn't. There's no sense that, um, they're hamming it up. There are a number of these photos which look like they from theatre productions, or we're looking at a a portrait of a young man staring up. What would you say about this? I don't know that it's actually from an actual, um, [00:14:00] production. Um, but a photograph. You know, um, using props. It's probably, um, intended to, um, convey some sort of, um, emotion or sensation, such as hope or forbearance or suffering. Or or some such, or some such. I mean, these kind of you had, um, in the sort of area of romantic and pictorial photography. [00:14:30] Um, every photograph had to have a caption like, um, homeward bound or, um, hope or faith or something like that. And this seems to fit that kind of a caption. It's only a head and shoulders portrait I see, and he's obviously been told to. No, it's actually, yes, it is. Head and shoulders. Um, he's wearing some type of loose fitting costume, which could be a monk's cowl or some such. And he's got his head seemingly resting against a pillar, [00:15:00] and he's looking rather hopefully and pensively upwards. Yeah, um, you have a young man sitting at what appears to be a dining table. He has a cup in front of him. A very young man, Actually. He's sitting in a window. The light is coming in to the side from a window. There's what appears to be a glazed photograph, Um, sort of sitting at an angle in the window itself. [00:15:30] Um, the impression you get is of a young man of rectitude and substance is what I think this is trying to show, which is at odds because he's a very boyish person, that kind of, um, in situ shot of somebody like at a breakfast table. Was it a Was it a common thing back then? Not common. We have a few photo photographers who actually, um, did take domestic photographs of this nature. Um, AC Gifford Gifford, the, um [00:16:00] uh, a teacher at, um, Wellington College and a, um, who founded their, um, astronomical observatory was a AAA. Photographer. In this vein, he took photographs of his family sort of sitting up in bed or at breakfast. Um, would they have to sit for a long time in terms of length of exposure? At this stage? I don't think so. Because photography was actually getting a lot more modern for want of a better word in the 18 eighties, Um, the emulsions were getting, um, more [00:16:30] rapid, more, more more sensitive. And, um, providing you had a good flash or a good. And it is a quite a heavily, um, shadowed, contrasting image. And he's only lit from the window. You wouldn't have to sit for too long. Yeah, you had to set it up right, though this one is of a young man at his es in a rocking chair. Um, he's taken from the side in a very heavily. Uh, I don't know if it's the same room as the other image or not. [00:17:00] Um uh, a very typical, um, Victorian drawing room with sort of violently patterned wallpapers and pictures all over the wall. Was that quite common to have a lot of pictures on walls. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Um, and, um, everywhere. See, there's a little sort of corner niches too. Again, you know, every everyone is is very well dressed. Um uh, in, um, Dr Waistcoat [00:17:30] and jacket, Um, even at ease. They were They were formal, and he's sort of lying back, having a doze. Um, I find it hard to say whether this is posed or whether he's sort of sneaked up on the sky and observed, Are there any common themes that run through all these photographs? The fact that, um, everyone does seem rather relaxed and comfortable with the photographer and that the fact that they are intermittent domestic, which [00:18:00] you don't often get, um I mean, we have, um, at around this period, I think we have two other collections which achieve a similar level of, um, and sort of informality and intimacy. There's the Gifford collection, which I've just mentioned, which is possibly a bit later, the, um, photographs of the lawyer named I think Charles Fell, who was an in-law of the Atkinson's of [00:18:30] Eastbourne, who took photographs of the extended Atkinson Richmond Atkinson family, um, in Eastbourne and um, in Nelson. And the sounds are similarly sort of, um informal. Um, when you move on to an image like this, where you've got what looks like two men embracing and kissing, um, that must have been quite unique. I would think that is is is indeed quite unique. Um, you don't often see anything as as sort of explicitly [00:19:00] sort of romantic as that. Um, in in photography, you don't often see photographs of men and women kissing, to be perfectly honest. Um, um, displays of intimacy like that I have not seen at this period, which was 18 eighties, 18 nineties. This, um it does look more posed than the other photographs we have to. But even even to pose such a photograph would be a very daring thing to do. [00:19:30] I'm not entirely clear where they were taken. I would say they were taken in some sort of large rural establishment. I mean, um, for want of a better word, you wouldn't want to be disturbed, would you? Uh, and, um, I think, um, a country rather than a town setting would be would be more likely seems to be the corner of a sort of a rather A working building, like a barn or a, um, a farm building. It seems to be something like a large basin, uh, sitting [00:20:00] on the step beside them. I don't know what that's all about. Um, the gentleman who is the older partner is wearing a bowler hat and carrying a cane. Um, you sort of wonder if they are setting up some sort of a tableau here. Um, of, um, the gentleman and his younger friend as it were, that kind of style of dress. Was that Is that a formal style? I think this is, um, sort of daily [00:20:30] business wear daily. Getting about we I mean it. It seems formal to us, and I say formal because it seems very formal. Um, much more rigid than we would be used to. Um, but, um, for actual formal wear, they'd probably wear something in the way of a cutaway coat and or or black and black, as opposed to brown. And they'd wear black, I think. Yeah. Uh, no. This would This would be sort of day to day where they also seem to be plus fours that he's wearing, which he wouldn't be wearing out to dinner. I don't think, [00:21:00] um, these two photographs I'm looking at now, um, appear to be the same young man. Um, and one. He's an oblique profile head and shoulder shot, and he's looking away to his right. Um, he's quite heavily shadowed. The light's coming in from his, right? Yeah. I think he's wearing that, um, what appears to be either a large blanket or a large costume and a in a rather [00:21:30] sort of monkish style. He's got very short cropped hair, too. And this other photograph is the same young man. Um, just wearing a shirt and looking directly at the photographer. I mean, that's a very sort of, um, intimate and connected portrait, I think. And, um, that's not all that common, you know, even, you know, with photographs of [00:22:00] women at at at that time to have such a, um, a direct connection between the photographer and the subject. Yeah, and they they look very relaxed. Especially extreme relaxed. Yeah. Yeah, they do. Yeah. This one in particular. Yeah. He's very much a disease with the with the with the photographer. Hm. One of the final images [00:22:30] is, um, what appears to be like a AAA sailor kind of costume and did Did did Robert G have any kind of fetishes going on with his photography? Um, sailor suits appear quite often, but, you know, the sailor was a was a stock theme anyway, and sort of Children wore sailor suits and, um, I. I haven't sort of noticed anything specific there. He's also got a pair of shoes, which he's tapping together. I don't know what's going on there. Um, [00:23:00] I think that this sailor seat was probably like a cowboy outfit, you know, a sort of a a stock. Um, a stock theme of fancy dress. It doesn't appear all the time. I mean, a lot of them are. There's the monkey outfall as well. No, I don't. I. I didn't see any particular sort of, um, any sort of I'm not gonna say overdue. In fact, in the sense, that's wrong. But I didn't notice any great preponderance of sort of naval [00:23:30] photographs. No, there was, um I think when I was looking through the albums, the two things that stood out for me were shoes. And did he have a bit of a thing about, um, like an execution of block. I think he did have that on occasion. Jokes about executions were quite common. I mean, one of the photographs that's in the fe, um, album is, um, is called Blue Beard wives. And what it is is these women and girls have poked their heads through. There's a sheet with slits in it, and these women have poked their heads through. [00:24:00] And, um, their hair is sort of tied up to a pin at the top of the sheet as though that's about four dise decapitated heads, Um, sort of, um, pinned up to the sheet, Um, so that they, you know, they sort of the zombie pictures of the time, I think did. Did Did Robert continue taking photographs? Or was it just from from that very short period that you've got the two albums from? I haven't seen any indication of any other albums or or any other photographs? [00:24:30] Um, and as I indicated also in in doing research on on papers past on this occasion, um, I haven't seen any more further indication of his work as a photographer. I mean, people do give things away, particularly if it's expensive, you know, and time consuming Um and I do know of photographers who, um, from earlier periods, who had a certain period of activity and then appeared to give it away. So, [00:25:00] um, sort of the jury's out on that one. Really? He didn't make a big thing of it. Anyway, I don't think. Does he have any surviving family? I do not think so. His in fact, I've got his death notice here. Um, on July the 5th, 1936 at CT and Robert G and his his 83rd year. No mention of family, no mention of connections. Um, certain he didn't marry [00:25:30] and there were no Children. And what does the other one say? Um Robert, son of a BG chemist of Woolwich and grandson of Robert Gant, surgeon and his 83rd year cremated at today. Now there is an obituary which I'm just going to find here, too. No, there is no mention of any family in the obituary. It just says after leaving the service of Mr Britain, Mr Gant went into business on his own account in Grey Town and later retired to [00:26:00] where he had resided for 10 years. So he moved there in 26 as I say, he was, um, a cousin of the hill family who are very much around. And that would probably be the closest relatives in New Zealand. Single man, but obviously, um, known, cared for and supported. Not a not a Not a single recluse, Um, a [00:26:30] man with his own place in the society.

IRN: 172
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/confessions_of_a_drag_queen.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003881
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089175
TITLE: Confessions of a Drag Queen
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ricky Burjac
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2000s; 2010s; Bats Theatre; Confessions of a Drag Queen; Ricky Burjac; Wellington; drag; gay; performance; theatre
DATE: 14 December 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast writer/performer Ricky Burjac talks about Confessions of a Drag Queen.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So my name is Ricky. I'm originally from Brazil and I've been in New Zealand about 10. 5 years and I love theatre. So that's my thing. And confucians of a drag queen is sort of a autobiographical piece about me, but with a lot of magic and fans included, not all true. And I try to portray for the community to see how how is [00:00:30] the life of a drag queen, especially from overseas, and the consequences that there is. When a young boy starts doing drag and discovers the gay night life, I think someone once quoted the show as, um, uh, young men struggle with Catholicism, Um, Internalised transphobia, um, sexuality performing and a whole lot of other things and the show really talks about. It's like the story of Ricky coming from New Zealand, his culture [00:01:00] changing and also in parallel, the story of rhubarb leaving in a banana boat from South America, thinking she's going to Paris in a boat with a sailor. But actually she she ends up in the land of the wrong white crowd. So when did you realise you were gay? Um, when I was I think I think I always knew, but I think when I was about 13, I kind of like, Mm. I think I like this bit, but I'll keep it private to myself. [00:01:30] Yeah, And when I was 17, as gay as it sounds, I had a diary that I started writing. Oh, yeah, I kissed this man. And I think I was quite naive at the time because I was not sure about AIDS and stuff like that. And I wrote about Oh, I kissed the man. Am I gonna have AIDS or something like that? I was very naive, and my mom read it and she sat down with me and she was like, So we should have a chat. And I was like, Mother, I'm a gay. I love [00:02:00] the cock. Leave me alone. And that's how I think I fully realised I was gay and came out, and from then on, my whole family knew. So this was back in Brazil. Um, we were already living in New Zealand by then, but we went back to Brazil for a holiday. And it wasn't that holiday that I kind of found my true self and many hot Brazilian men into the beaches. So I was like, Hm, Let's try it out. [00:02:30] So how are gay scene in Brazil? It's funny because there is, um, Brazil is a very macho place and very Catholic. So gays still, it's kind of like they're trying to bring it in and be open. But it's not really. And I think if you are uber super gay, it's more acceptable than being just a normal person who is gay. Because, yeah, there is a lot of, um, [00:03:00] it's not racism, but still not the right thing. And there is, I think that's the reason why there are so many married in them, not out of the closet. Men in Brazil who does the whole year. I'm a macho, but I actually I like to play it under the sheets with some guys. So when you were 13, were there any kind of images or were you? Did you have an awareness of of gay people? Oh, yeah, quite a big and, um and because at that time, my it's funny because my sister is also gay [00:03:30] and she came out when I was 10. So at that time I was really fighting more stuff, and I think because I quite love Madonna from a young age. I think that's how my mom always knew all my love for musicals. So there were I always knew guys and stuff and but it was like that thing I mentioned about being acceptable about being the big you big camping. And that's what I knew about gay. And that was my knowledge, I think. And I found out [00:04:00] a lot more when I came to New Zealand and started finding myself more and figuring out things. So what age were you when you moved to New Zealand? 13. And the first time I went to a gay bar I was 14, which happened to be pound because with my sister being gay, she was like, Oh, let's go to Wellington because I first moved to Taranaki, New Plymouth and there is no gay life there. And, uh, my sister was like, Oh, [00:04:30] let's go for a driving Wellington. Oh, why don't we go to a gay bar? And I was like, OK, hopefully I'll get in got in and I was like, somehow this feels OK to me, but I'll just keep it to myself. I wouldn't let it out. Just did. Because there is that fear of, like, oh, telling your mother that her other Children is gay too. And, um, yeah, just that fear of coming out and thinking, Fuck, I'm gonna be so repressed. That feeling So yeah, And [00:05:00] what was that first experience like of of going to pound at 14? It was It was kind of like one of those movie scenes. I think that you see, I can't remember what it reminded me a lot because when I was in Brazil, I think I was about 10 or eight or something, and I watched Priscilla and I was like, Oh, yeah, I'm never gonna go to a place like this. And then I moved to New Zealand, which is just across the border, and then you go to pound. I think it was Halloween [00:05:30] night. And you have, like, I think it's Polly who was doing a show with flames and naked flames going all around the place. And you see the gay men kissing and the music, and it just felt like, wow, it feels like I'm in a movie set. And but the funny thing is that it felt OK and everyone was different and they could wear whatever they want and be whoever they want. But it was OK, That was the biggest impression that I got that. I think that was quite cool. So how [00:06:00] did that experience tie in with your Catholicism? Uh, my Catholicism only happened when I was a little kid. Really? Because I used to live with my mom's auntie and she was very, very religious. That kind of goes to church every day, and she used to drag me along. I'm not sure if it was my Catholicism that thought it was wrong to be gay, but just the feeling of maybe disappointing my family, so the Catholicism [00:06:30] really didn't do it. But I could just keep thinking if my auntie or my grandma were there, what would they say? And they were like, Oh, this is a blasphemy, you know? But I was like, No, this is kind of fine. And when you eventually did come out to your family, how did they react? It's funny because my mom was like, Oh, yeah, it's new and she took it fine. She was like, Well, no matter what you are or who you are I'm just gonna love you anyway. So [00:07:00] who cares when more gay Children just gonna be fine? And after that, she just, like, started doing my drag costumes and do everything for me and supporting and coming to my drag shows at midnight in the gay bar. And I was like, Wow, what a mother I have. Um My sister was fine. She always knew too. She was like, Oh, yeah, I'm a lesbian. I could see from my experience that you gave from when you were a little child to stealing my Barbies, But, uh, the rest of my family took it really [00:07:30] well. And they like it's funny because they make fun of rhubarb and my great character and they ask about boyfriends and stuff. And my grandma is quite open about her now. Especially after my sister got civil union and took her partner to Brazil and she she Yeah, she just, like, really accepted well, but the only person who doesn't accept it is my dad, who just didn't take it well and yeah, there is a lot of mixed feelings about that, [00:08:00] and he pretty much said to me, Oh, I'm ashamed of you because you're gay, you have sex with men. That's not right. And that's where I saw that macho thing from Brazil coming on. And yeah, because I went to Brazil on that holiday that I came out and I haven't seen him for four years and I met with him, and then he met with my mom by himself and said, Oh, I don't want to see my son. He's too gay now And I was like, Whoa, so that's the only [00:08:30] part of my family that didn't accept that Everyone else seems to go quite OK, do you? Do you think that Ma culture in Brazil has changed over the years? Now I think it's slowly changing. It's funny because Brazil is kind of run by the soap operas. They have, like three every night in the main TV station and people live by it and that will, like, dictate the fashion, the music and like whatever happened in the country. And it's funny because they recently had one with [00:09:00] a gay couple and they had some I think, about 10 years ago with a lesbian couple, but they didn't go down that well, so they killed the couple in an accident. And, um and they had this gay couple and they were fine with the couple as long as they flirted. But when there was the last episode of the soap opera and they went to Kiss, it was a big thing that the TV station blocked the kiss and didn't go to air. So it's becoming OK. Slowly, but still, there is a [00:09:30] a little blockage, I guess. Yeah, so but, um, some of the gay scene is I feel sometimes it's quite different because New Zealand is quite open, but Brazil is more open in some aspects. The it's, I think, because there is more people there and I think that's why it's quite different and more open in some respects. And I think especially with, um, HIV protection as [00:10:00] well, because Brazil is quite the number of people is quite big there. So I think there is a bigger care and yeah, about that, then, um, New Zealand. More awareness, I guess. Do you think in New Zealand that, um, people aren't as safe? Hm? I don't think the young people are as safe. I think there is a much more awareness in Brazil for the young people to be quite [00:10:30] safe and especially like during carnival time. You just hear all you hear is wear a condom, wear a condom. And I think in New Zealand it's hard to reach those young people, young people, because, see, it's I'll be fine. I'll just take a pill, maybe, Or like, they don't think about the consequences of, like not having sex without a condom and from growing up when in a community where there is so much awareness, I'm kind of more careful about those things. I [00:11:00] think you see the younger generation because they haven't been through. I think the older generation has in the eighties with AIDS and things like that. They don't care as much. You can see the difference. We should just also put in context. What what year did you come to New Zealand 2000. So and that when you talk about younger generations, you're talking about people that are what kind of age now, Um I think because in Brazil we start hearing about sex and being careful with it from thir 13 [00:11:30] onwards, and I don't think there is so much awareness about that from people that age and I think it's not only in the big cities of New Zealand, but also the smaller cities. So you don't like when I was in high school? I never heard about being careful or looking after myself in that sense. And I think there should be quite a lot more because sometimes younger people just go. Yeah, horny fan, Let's go for it. But don't don't click. You know what I mean? So were you openly out [00:12:00] at high school in New Zealand on my last year of high school when I came back from Brazil? Yeah, from that holiday, I I was kind of like, not openly out, but I was like, Yeah, some people know, but I won't try to hide it. It's not that easy to hide, so I'll just if they ask me, I'm gay. If they don't, they don't need to know. But then after I started doing drag and I moved to Wellington, I got a bigger because that was in New Plymouth and then I went to Palmerston North. So [00:12:30] it was in Palmerston North, though it became more open. But when I came to Wellington, I saw a bigger scene that was more a community place and then I felt more secure about it. And then I was like, Oh, yeah, this is OK, so yeah, that's no problem in saying that I'm gay. What was it like being gay in Palmerston North? Well, it was it was different. It was OK, but I think the scene is quite different [00:13:00] and quite small. Uh, I don't think there is, as much of I think, maybe because I was quite young at the time. But there isn't as much of a community as there is in Wellington and the bars there is no I think there is only one gay bar that I remember sneaking out of my window with my friend to go to it and yeah, it's quite different. And I think there could be more support, especially being [00:13:30] quite a big student city. With so many young people already doing university, there could be more support in regards to that. I didn't see so much of it when I was there. So when did you figure out that you wanted to do drag? It's funny because when I came out, my mom always said, Yeah, it's fine. Just be one of those classic guys that don't do drag or be over the top. I was like, OK, so and I and drag always kind of like, [00:14:00] went like, No, I'm never going to do that. Never. And, um, I went to I miss Yeah, after pound close went to IMT one night and I met this guy and I went like, Oh, he's cute. Let's go talk to him, Kissed him, had a good night And then the next day, when I saw him, like in full drag and I was like, Oh, my gosh, like I even talk about it in the play [00:14:30] and then he was like, Oh, hello, you know me as a boy. But he didn't know me as a girl. Nice to meet you. And I was like, Oh, no, no, no. So I became really good friends with him, and I tell people that's the moment I've got the drag. I who passed me the decease and, um, I started seeing how drag queens were, and I started being like, you know, those sky boys who were always there helping the drag queens and, you know, just being friendly guy and then I was like he was like, Oh, damn, I can't get a drag queen for Friday night. I was like, Oh, can I try? [00:15:00] And I was like, What am I doing? I was like, I was thinking like, I'm an actor, So I like, you know, might as well try put a character on. And he was like you sure And I was like, Yeah, why not? And he was like, OK, you need this. This this do your makeup like that and, yeah, choose the show. And I was like, OK, it went from then on. And then apparently my first show was really good and they were like, Oh, you're fab. You should do it more. Then from then on, they asked me to perform at the new town fair, and I just started [00:15:30] doing more, and I was like, This is weird. I'm becoming a drag queen. Kind of fell into it. So that checklist that that your friend rattled off What? What What are the things you need? He wrote me a whole list of like what? Makeup? To get Um, like clown white wax for the eyebrows. Um, TV Stick to hide the beard like It just kept going and going, going, going. And I just went, like on a shopping spree. And [00:16:00] then he was like, Oh, you got to find a costume. And I was like, Oh, when am I going to find girls clothes that fit me? So I went to the larger woman section at Farmers and I had some of the most embarrassing times of my life trying on cost girls clothes on the mains dressing room. People just left school. Yeah, drag queen. And And I think shoes that because that's always the hardest thing because, like, I'm size 13, So finding woman shoes that fit me were was a big [00:16:30] mission. But the warehouse is quite good. And yeah, there was a checklist and he was like, Oh, you got to choose a song. And then he came and saw my performance, my rehearsal before he did it. And he was like, uh, do it like this. Don't don't care so much about the movements because you're gonna forget the lips singing. And yeah, it was a whole list. He he was kind of like he wasn't really my drag mother, but he helped me through it so Can you describe your drag persona [00:17:00] Rouge? She came from the slums of Brazil to become a drag sensation. II. I think I loved her. Um, do you know Will and Grace? Karen Walker. She's a bit like Karen Walker. She can be a bitch, but very nice and very funny. And she loves her drinks and rhubarb is She's a star. She knows she's a star, and she loves it. And she loves the attention and the people and the [00:17:30] glamour. She loves glamour. She's a train. That's the best way to describe it. You said before it was like an addiction. It can become. It can become. There was a time in my life that, um, I got so excited about it, and you get so overwhelmed by the attention people give give you that it becomes an addiction. Let's do drag more and more and more. And I think when I first started, I was like, every weekend out and drag like people [00:18:00] all knew me and you would buy drinks. But then, at the same time, there was a time that kind of wears out a little, and you just go like, uh, they want to block the uh no, not tonight, No, Don. I want to wear high heels now, my feet and yeah, it can become quite an addiction, too, to have that attention, I think. And I think that's why A lot of reasons why drag queens do drag is that attention that they need. [00:18:30] Maybe it's, um, I did a research earlier this year at Toy because, see, we worked a lot with, um, people's personality and why they do certain things. And I did a whole research on drag queens, and it's funny because a lot of them used to be quite insecure, and you see that they start taking up drag as a way to feel secure. So it's bringing out their self empowerment, I guess. And I think [00:19:00] that's what's the addiction it is is that feeling more and more powerful and the attention you get? You get more attention, and I think that also helps to build your character. And so what do you do it? I think I started saying I was doing just for comedy and fun, but now I do it because, of course I love the attention. But I really love the performing aspect of drag. I think it is a not when it's well done. [00:19:30] And you you got to think about every little thing when you do drag. So there is the costume, the makeup, the wig. And then you got to think about the performance. So I really get annoyed when you just go on stage in a drag show and you just see like a drag queen, um, moving the arm, side to side and just lip syncing. I think there is much more to it than that. Uh, I think there is a really theatrical thing about the performance that I really enjoy, being an actor and working with theatre, and that's what I [00:20:00] try. And that's what I really like it. And that's why I do it. Um, like one of the best drag shows that I've ever seen was in Brazil, and there was this guy in this full suit who came out like butcher hell, gorgeous man, And within the song, it was a French song I can't remember, but within two minutes he transformed into this drag queen taking off the suit. But the dress, makeup and I really love that theatricality, and I think drag has the power to do that. [00:20:30] So I guess that's why I do it. The the performance aspect keeps dragging me because I keep thinking, Oh, I could do it like this. And you just like, constantly during the day you hear a song and you go like, Oh, I'm seeing images. You could do it like this. You could do it like that. And yeah, I love that. And now you've actually added another layer onto that by actually doing a a show about a drag performer. Yeah, because I kept [00:21:00] thinking for a while that it's like that song from a musical. You gotta get a gimmick. So you start seeing the drag queens that do really well and you see, like they always have a gimmick. For example, polio. She has fantastic costumes, always looks different. Um, with drum drag. He's got his, you know, drums and plays that Yeah, you always see how they always have something else to add. And I think drag really needs that. [00:21:30] So I think my thing was, my gimmick was going to be the acting and turning drag into theatre, and that's why I started doing the play and I was like, Hm. I started doing because I've seen, like, all the funny situations, like getting dragged, and I was like, Let's write about it and then started turning into that and I was like, Oh, maybe my gimmick might be the theatrical elements that I can put into it. So what's it like in this theatre piece? Kind of opening up to the audience and telling some really personal stuff? [00:22:00] I remember at rehearsals because pretty much I had to like, together with the director, write a biography of my life and going like, OK, this is what happens. This is what it feels like. And at the time it felt quite scary. And I was I remember and I going on stage, thinking like, Man, I'm actually telling stuff about my whole life. I'm telling about the times that I go to gay saunas and get rejected by men, [00:22:30] or that I go to dates and get turned turned off because, um, the guy says No, because I'm a drag queen and like, it's quite little things in your life that you don't think about sharing, and it feels it. It used to feel quite quite scary But then I had a Drake Queen come and watch the show and said, thank you so much. That was like seeing my life on stage. And now he feels quite powerful to help other people to see themselves on stage. [00:23:00] So I feel quite open now to be able to share my life and help other people with that. Is there anything that you have in the back of your mind that you haven't shared? Are there things that you just would not? Well, I think there is a few. So it might be x-rayed? No. Um no II. I can't think anything I I think I truly share. I think I think there [00:23:30] are things that I haven't shared. But I have shown through subtext Does that make you quite vulnerable? In a way, I guess. Well, I mean, at the end of a performance, I mean, do you feel vulnerable? No, I In the end of a performance, I actually feel quite powerful because it felt like I was there helping people and giving them an insight. But it doesn't feel vulnerable [00:24:00] that people can use that to judge me or anything. I felt that I actually used them to not sure to bring awareness but to show them what it's like. But no, not not so, no. And what about audience reactions? How have they been? It's funny because, um, when you do the show in rehearsal, you start getting the comedy and it's like, Oh, yeah, it's funny the first week and then it's funnier. And then it's [00:24:30] like it's slowly dying because you really seen 1000 times. And then when we had opening night and the first scene like the first movie I do, they start laughing. You go like we believe they're laughing. It's actually funny. And the reactions has been really good, which I was, which is always surprising because you write your own show, you perform at it and you think, like, are people gonna like it? It's the actor personal thinking. Are they gonna like it? Are they gonna get the jokes? Are they gonna say, Are they gonna connected with it? And [00:25:00] the reaction has been fantastic, because I mean by having a drag queen coming on after the show and saying to me, Look, I felt like I was watching myself and having people from the gay community saying, Ah, we heard really good stuff about the show and it was fantastic and I yeah, audience has been amazing and it fell. It feels like when I'm on stage, it's like a mutual connection. So we're kind of flirting with each other, and it's like if I do [00:25:30] a mistake, they can excuse me and it's It's like this thing that we like and because of the size of the theatre as well. It's so intimate that the audience reaction can be so good. It's interesting. It reminds me of a quote, Uh, a reviewer gave your first season, which was that you are an act rather than an actor. Yeah dot com said. That, and I started thinking about that, and it's actually kind of true you, I think, with the element of [00:26:00] drag, instead of becoming an actor, you become an act, and that's what gives the theatricality of it. Yeah, Speaking of drag theatre shows, can you think of any other show like in New Zealand history that's been like a a theatre show about drag. I mean, does it have a long history? No, I was doing some research on that. I know that Ronald Govert some part of the drag history of New Zealand and drag in mates and lovers. [00:26:30] And I know that other theatrical things that has been with drag has been, um, drum drag by Gareth. And, um, I think Paula did some kind of show at bets about the life of Bette Midler. But it hasn't been any real shows that talks about drag, and and I think that's actually worldwide. You don't see much of it happening, and it's quite it's quite a good feeling to know that you are opening up a space for other people to [00:27:00] create some work as well. What about gay theatre? Well, I, I use the word gay, but I'm thinking, like, say, Queer Theatre in general in New Zealand, Um, is there much of that going on at this time? I think it's just slowly building up. Um, Silo has been a theatre that does quite a open minded theatre work for quite a while, But I think, and from the time I've been in New Zealand 10 years onwards has been slowly building [00:27:30] up. So there was, um, a silo show that tour Auckland and Wellington, um, boys in the band, Uh, and then there was mates and lovers. And then, um, the little dog laughed, which was also done in Wellington and Auckland. And I think it's a slowly I think we after Brokeback Mountain it was OK to have gay in a movie. I think it was OK to have gay in a theatre, so it's slowly processing more and more. And, uh, John Smyth, a reviewer, [00:28:00] said that, um, there is clearly an audience, a market out there for that. So I think it's the time now to start building more of those but quality stuff, too. It's not just, um oh yeah, we gaze, Let's do a play about gay But I think you got to see what is going on at the moment that you can talk about. And of course, there are some classic gay theatre pieces that should be maybe done in Wellington in New Zealand again, like beautiful fang and [00:28:30] stuff like that that people just haven't seen here. I use the words gay and queer in that last question. I'm just wondering, what kind of words do you use to describe yourself and and your work? I use gay a lot because, um, especially being and walking around people, and they say, Oh, that's gay And I like to use gay as a positive thing. So I always use gay, but I always use, um and how would you define gay? [00:29:00] Oh, it's funny because walking around with drag queens, you just go, Oh, that's gay. That's awesome. That's cool. So using gay is a positive thing rather than oh, that that's gay. That sucks. So I use that to describe cool things but also describe myself what I am in the community. But I think GL TT GL BT is quite a important word that I used to because it covers the whole of [00:29:30] the community. It's funny, because is that becoming about labels rather than who you are? I think What about words like queer? It's funny because that some of the words I use that word in the show, but it's I. I don't get so much connection with it rather than gay. I think gay has quite a impact. People won't be able to see this in the interview, but I'm blowing [00:30:00] my hand. There's an explosion gay, Um, but yeah, I haven't I don't use queer as much, But I think I think maybe that's more of an American term. At times, I don't think it's used. I. I don't hear as much in New Zealand. Queer, That's that's That's gay. Yeah, I'll go with gay. And what about terms in the kind of drag community? What are some of the words that are used to describe drag [00:30:30] queens? It's funny because, um, there is an awesome programme called, um, real balls drag race, and it's like he gives a drag dictionary. So you go high high. That means you're sleeping with another drag queen. Um, girl, I'm gonna turn. Um, are you gonna do slap tonight? Which means getting into drags? Or is that whole? Actually, it would be an amazing reading if you could write a dictionary about drag. [00:31:00] But I think sometimes drag wins have their own kind of language. That they can understand is much drag history passed down from Queen to queen. I mean, how do you get your drag history? I think they used to be. But the way Wellington queer seen his turn with no opportunity to do drag, there isn't as much Now I think there is more in Auckland. But, um, when I first started, I always heard about the other drag queens from the past [00:31:30] from like even before pound. Oh, yeah, That one came from Auckland to work at Pound. And then this drag queen set it up and this one left and never did it anymore. You start hearing about a history which is actually quite interesting. But you you need to have that those older drag people to tell you that history and I think with Wellington there isn't that going on at the moment because you don't have the other people anymore. There is no gay bar or place to [00:32:00] cultivate that culture. Why is that? Well, there is no gay bar to do drag. And I think the essence of drag is always at the gay bar because they are always the colour of the gay community. They bring the people in, you know, in. And I don't think the bars in Wellington, I think I know one of the bars really like Dragon. They always supportive they supporting me, but I think the other bar doesn't like [00:32:30] Dragon doesn't feel like there is a need for it. When there is when I personally finger is I think it's, um I think it's something essential for the drag community in anywhere in the world. You always see that the drag queens are doing more for the community and being the brand of it. At times, I think the last time I saw drag in Wellington was that, um, Miss Drake Wellington, that they still do every year. But there's still [00:33:00] why. So, in terms of your production, your theatrical production, what is the support like from, say, businesses, but also the the The wider gay community here in Wellington has been great support because you always feel the fear of, like, not getting enough support or people not coming to your show. And it's been quite a surprise to see so many people coming and the show selling out and things like that, Um, [00:33:30] but I think there is a big difference between sometimes Wellington and Auckland. Maybe because I'm not in that community, it's a bit hard to penetrate into it and, um and I think being New Zealand being so small, that should be should be more open and more supportive of New Zealand wide, not just city wide. So when you say, uh, more supportive, uh, when when you [00:34:00] put forward a proposal to businesses to support you? What? What do they come back with? Oh, sorry. We already supported another event in our city. Oh, sorry. Um, we don't have the time. Sorry. It's the recession. Um, sorry. We're busy at that time of the year, and and at times you feel like, Oh, fair enough. There is actually a recession going on. It's hard for everyone, But at at times, you feel like, Oh, you could just, you know, it's not all business, like [00:34:30] so. So many places in Auckland have been so supportive, like urge, um dot But others could have been at least. Oh, we can't. We can't give you money. But we could, um you could host your party here, or we could put a poster up for you. So I think there is a difference sometimes that people just go. No, I can't do it now. I can't be bothered. And I think sometimes they may see as competition instead of working together. So what are the businesses [00:35:00] that have supported you? Um, funny enough for this season of Auckland. Half of them have been Brazilian businesses because I thought, Well, the play appeals quite a lot to the Brazilian community, so I'm also getting in fight of them. So the Embassy of Brazil was supporting us. But there is also, um, a gay sex shop in Auckland. Peaches and cream. Um, urge Bar is helping us a lot, and they're gonna bring a lot of people to the show dot [00:35:30] and one that has helped us a lot both in this season and the season thing has been the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, especially because the show talks about AIDS because my father has AIDS and I talk about it in the show. So they've been they thought it really reflected the show, and they have helped us quite a lot, and it's been amazing support from them. Can you talk a wee bit about your father with AIDS and how you react to that? [00:36:00] Um, at the first I heard it was quite a shock because being in the gay scene, you hear, especially after I didn't become so naive. And instead of being more aware, you hear a lot about AIDS, and it's something you're just always supporting people not to get. It was quite hard at the time because he just went Oh, you know, I've got the bug and I was like, What, Bug? Oh, you know, I've got AIDS. And I was like, I was like, but it's fine, It's fine. And I was [00:36:30] like, OK, but then at the same time, there was that thing coming from him that, um, this is a gay disease and I was like, Well, where did you get it from then, You know, and which I have no idea, but yeah, it was quite a shock at at first. There is a thing that I talk with my dad that I pushed him upon. It's like, Yeah, you keep calling me gay. However, you're the one who's got AIDS, so don't judge me for it. But at the same time, I go [00:37:00] like I'm here to support you, no matter what. It's not just a gay disease. So, yeah, can you talk about, um, the kind of theatrical support that you have? How I mean, what's it like doing a a gay theatre piece in New Zealand? Do you have people that you can talk to about the kind of ins and outs of how it works. Um, [00:37:30] coming from to which is the biggest theatre school in New Zealand. Uh, it has been amazing the support we had because they really support students to go and make their own work. And I had great people that's been coming and helped me and giving advice about the show or how to do it. What theatrical way works better and people like Jonathan Henry and, um, Christian Penny people who I worked with And [00:38:00] there's been a great theatrical support to get more gay players because they see the need of it. And the market for it, um, bats has been incredibly supportive. Um, Basement has been incredibly supportive, and other theatre people around because they start seeing the work and the craft you're developing, and they want to help you nurture it. So it's It's been great theatrical support this way, and you just mentioned Market, [00:38:30] um, what is the market for this play? You know what kind of audiences who makes up your audience? It's really funny, because the first time we did it, we thought, Oh, yeah, we're gonna get a younger gay generation in secondary market would be the older gay generation and then open. But we were surprised at how many women actually came to the show. So, um, primarily our target is the gay generation and especially drag Queens because they identify with the show. [00:39:00] There's no way, although, and gay people will identify with the show because it doesn't talk just about drag but a whole lot of other aspects. And I think the wider, um, community as well to give them an idea of what's going on and what's actually like. Because I think there is a lot of people straight people actually, who go to and go like, Oh, I'm not gonna go to because I don't know what it's like or Drake Queens are always rude to you. And I was like, No, [00:39:30] no, all Drake Queens are rude to you. I'm the nice one. So come and have an idea of actually what's happening at the moment or why they're rude to you or, you know, it might be just their persona. So I think it's Yeah, it's the gay community to for them to identify and see themselves on stage and the wider community to bring more awareness and let them know what's going on. And did it work out that it was the kind of younger gay audience that came or was it more kind of older people? [00:40:00] I think it was really mixed. Really, really mixed. Um, we're hoping that Auckland will have a because of being a bigger place. We have a more younger generation, but I think it used to be 25 upwards. Was more the generation that came and a lot of the older generation came. Yeah, it it was really surprising because you don't know until you're there and you see the audience and you go like, OK, who am I gonna work with tonight? Wow, it's actually who A lot of all the gay men. [00:40:30] Oh, wow. It's actually a lot of women, so I don't know, we're we're waiting to see what it's gonna be like in Auckland. And how does it affect your performance in terms of when you look out there and think, Oh, I'm gonna work to this crowd or that crowd. It changes a lot because, um, a lot of the show, it's working with the audience. So I walk around the audience talk with them. Sit down with them, have a chat and you go like, Oh, that one is a bit quiet tonight and more the intellectual crowd that don't don't [00:41:00] laugh. They just, you know, go quiet and just listen. But it's awesome. Also, when you got those crowd that just laugh everything. But you also got to be careful All I'm not gonna work just on the crowd's laugh. I gotta be careful of what I'm doing on stage and not just go for the laughs. The interaction between actor audience is hugely important changes every night. But you gotta learn how to read the crowd. And it's usually like the first three minutes you start into the show and you see [00:41:30] how much laughs you're getting. You go like, yeah, I got them or yeah, it's gonna have It's gonna be a hard one or yeah, you, you you you have to always like read it and see how it works. Hey, so this second season, what's changed in the production? A lot. There is a really like new characters, new scenes, and we got rid of some of the scenes that we don't like and there's gonna be a whole new design and because we always think [00:42:00] with the work, we do how to make it better. And we always like that idea of improving and taking it away and making it better. So people in Auckland can expect a whole different version of the show than in Wellington. It's gonna be new songs, because that's quite a fun thing. Um, rhubarb doesn't lip sync, she sings. So there's gonna be music specially written for the show by our fantastic musical director Hali. And, um, [00:42:30] yeah, it's gonna be quite a different feeling, especially being in Auckland. So do you find rhubarb? Kind of seeps out at odd times. What do you mean? Well, like, I mean, you're you're walking down the street, and suddenly you know, you have a rhubarb moment where you think Oh, this is rhubarb, not me. Yeah, there is a lot of time that I go and talk to people and start doing like, Oh, I'm talking like we're about Oh, wait, I haven't got a wig on and I go like, Oh, wait, Control Ricky Control. You're [00:43:00] Ricky. You're not wearing women's dress. You're not in high heels. So there is quite a lot that sometimes it's just like, you know, it's your alter ego. Sometimes you're just gonna totally fall into that. But sometimes I have to go like No, wait, I'm Butch today. No, no, I haven't got a wig on. Just keep going. And so is the production just going to be in Auckland or are you touring it? We're taking to Auckland, then Wellington, and there has been talks about taking to South [00:43:30] Island. So we're negotiating with people down there and we're really looking at maybe taking to Australia next year or the year after. So it's a work in progress, So we're always working and seeing how it goes. And where can we take it? My dream would be to take to the gay Dublin Theatre Festival, so we'll see how that negotiations and money talks go for that. But that would be my dream. So who knows? And finally, when your [00:44:00] mother sees your drag act, um, how does she react now? Um, it's funny because she came to the play and she saw me playing her and she was like, Why did you play me with that wig? That's hideous. My hair is so not like that, but, um at first my mom was like, Oh, yeah, do a drag. She didn't come to my first show and and then she started saying she was like, Oh, for fucks sake, if you're gonna do it, do a ride. So I started making my costume and saying, No, don't wear that No, that song's not funny [00:44:30] or otherwise. She It's funny because like, I'm walking down in Melbourne with her shopping and she was like, Oh, those shoes would be perfect for RBA. So my mom is actually my number one thing because she supports me in everything she does everything I well, I do or rhubarb does. So she always goes like when I do a drag show, I go like Mom, What do you think of this song? And she was like, No, rhubarb is more dancing. You should have a dance. No, no, that's too slow. [00:45:00] So she reacts amazingly well, when I first did Miss Greg Wellington, she was there in the audience all night, changing my costumes and helping me backstage. And, um, yeah, I couldn't have a mother who reacts better to drag than her. She always it's funny because I'm like her. I think she because she loves dolls. So in reality, I'm a bigger version of a Barbie doll. [00:45:30] She's just like, yeah, she was like, Oh, but that colour would look so good on you. I'll buy some fabric. We'll make something. Yeah, it's amazing. I love my mom.

IRN: 417
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/denny_moran.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003882
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089176
TITLE: Denny Moran
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Denny Moran
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; Australia; Brisbane; Carmen Rupe; Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Courtenay Place Men's Toilet; Denny Moran; Dorian Society; Post Office; Public toilet (Taj Mahal); Royal Oak Hotel; The Balcony / Le Balcon; Wellington; anonymous sex; arrest; beats; courts; crime; cruising; drag; entrapment; gay; health; history; law; police; profile; sex; sex work; transgender
DATE: 26 November 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Brisbane, Brisbane, Australia
CONTEXT: In this podcast Denny Moran talks about the gay scene in Wellington in the 1970s - including Carmen and various beats.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I worked for the telephone exchange and worked basically, um, in many places of New Zealand and gradually worked my way up in the in the, um, what was then the post office and transferred to Wellington as a class for supervisor in the telephone exchange. Where shall we say I was, um, supervising a bunch of girls? Yes. Um, not many of [00:00:30] them were females, but that was fun. Um, I met many, many openly gay people in the post office or the telephone exchange, Many wonderful characters, some of whom I'm very happy to explain shortly. Um, but I will also say that a very supportive work environment there was no there were no problems about being ourselves. [00:01:00] And I would even say that on occasions it was probable that some of my seniors may have been gay, both male and female. One would never question them, but I know they were there, and I still look back fondly for some of the things that they guided me through. Was the post office a kind of magnet for gay people back in the early seventies? Or it just happened to be that way? I don't [00:01:30] know that the post office was, but I would definitely say that the telephone exchange was I went straight into, um, telephone exchange in a little place called in the Bay of Islands, where there was definitely one other male and probably females moved in moving around New Zealand. I just kept meeting them. Um, yeah, and Wellington and Auckland, because I worked in Auckland for a period of time, too. There was [00:02:00] a a large number, a large number, and we had social social occasions. You know, the Christmas functions. The, um Well, in those days you had a ball, and I'm talking, um that the Christmas function was long frocks and, um, formal clothing. And, um, most of us were in drag from from the telephone exchange. There were everybody just waited to see who was going to turn up and what it [00:02:30] was A fabulous time back then. What were the words that were used to describe gay people? I would have referred to myself as gay or homosexual. The rude words. And in those days, the word queer was, uh, just, um would make me great and the was insulting someone, but explain or describing ourselves. We were gay. people [00:03:00] that describe male, male and female. Were many people living an openly gay lifestyle back then? Yes, in my circles, Yes, definitely open to the extent that your friends all knew and your friends and probably and many well, in in many cases that I know it was families as well so that barbecues or Wellington didn't have many barbecues, but, [00:03:30] um, indoor indoor parties, because they you always had to get out of the wind. However, uh, yes, there were family involved in all of that as well. And most people just recognise the fact that, um, these are your friends and, uh, that's that's how it is. But we knew many couples. I say we because I was in a relationship for a period of time. Would you ever [00:04:00] see gay men holding hands or kissing? No, not in public. You wouldn't walk down the down the road holding hands. Um, a few years later in Auckland, it was seen a little bit more. Perhaps, but no. You come out of a club and you'd be arm in arm because someone was a little bit drunk. Maybe, but that's all. It was seen as speaking of clubs What was the Wellington scene [00:04:30] like in terms. I'm trying to remember names. There was one there. There's a restaurant, um 18. 10 or 10. 80 or something down in. Well, there was a club upstairs there or near there that I just can't remember the name of, um that was the most common one for the group of friends that I was with. Um, and also the Dorian Society. It was, uh, a bar [00:05:00] that that must have been licenced. I'm presuming it was We certainly had alcohol there. And a dance place and not not like the crazy dance places that you have now. We were dancing. Um, ballroom dancing was just wonderful. Um, yeah. Um, you you're talking couples dancing together or or doing, uh, rock and roll or the twist. But [00:05:30] it was not just crazy dancing on the floor. It was definitely people that were more involved with one another. Um, yeah. And I love the dance floor so I would arrive and go dancing. That's it? Yeah. I'm going to tell you about a character because of the dancing, and she's just come to mind. Her name was Phyllis had no idea of any other names. Um, but, um, I can see this person, Phyllis, as having this mess of [00:06:00] blonde silver blonde hair and wild in her clothing. That was always tight fitting and usually silver or black that I can see quite crazy. And what I can say is that this character worked on the railways and would, um and and one night convinced me that I was going to go on a train trip. So we went on the [00:06:30] overnight That was the one that went from Wellington to Auckland. And I stood there and I discovered that many of the guards were gay. I had a crazy time. I just had a a sleeping birth and had visitors for many times. And Phyllis just organised it all. Then when we got to the taihape, um, area, it was snowing, and the two [00:07:00] trains in those days used to pass in the middle of the night and and actually change the staff. So they went the other way, and we run outside in our underwear, which had to be put on, incidentally, and, um, changed trains and off we went again. And it was there were half a dozen people that just, you know, just in the middle of the night. Just Yeah, it was fun. So when you used to go out in Wellington, were you in drag? [00:07:30] Uh, I worked in drag for a period of time. Um, I. I worked in the post office as I mentioned, and and that's always shift work. Uh, and there were a group of us that used to go out at night, and I Great. There was one lovable, beautiful person called Tony who encouraged me to dress or change into women's clothing occasionally. And, uh, I I did on [00:08:00] occasions for party purposes. And then I, uh, got a got a permanent morning shift so that I was finishing in the telephone exchange at about three o'clock in the afternoon. I then worked in a restaurant, um called the townhouse restaurant for a period of time in the evenings. And that group of people were definitely night hours, so that when you finished work there, you went out, um, clubbing and pubbing. [00:08:30] And they introduced me to Carmen's coffee lunch, which was in Vivian Street. And from there, some of those waiters and the, um convinced me that going out as a female was a fun thing to do. And as I said, we also we we'd go to all of these to various functions, and also we'd all go and drag. So, yes, I did. [00:09:00] I eventually got to the stage that I was working, um, in the boon, um, Vivian Street in drag, but I change on the bus on the way. Do you want to know about that? That was fun, because you'd you'd finish work, um, at the restaurant at about 9. 30 10 o'clock. But really, the night life didn't start till considerably later. But I had to go, um, [00:09:30] up into is at me up above the zoo. Um and so I go up there Russian. Um, I never took a change of clothing to work. It was always a matter of rushing and grabbing it, um, retouching the shaving situation and that and then literally, I I've done it several times. Got on the bus, um, and change clothes [00:10:00] on in the back of the bus and I I probably had I think I had seven wigs, but they were all short bob style. Just put them on, and they just sat there. Type things like in page boy type styles. Um, now, remember, if you Well, you can't see me. I'm only 5 ft four. I was slight. I have tiny, um, hands, Tiny feet. Um, I. I take a size five shoes. So it's more Getting [00:10:30] clothing to fit me was easy. Secondhand shops were just a dream. Um, all all the girls, and particularly in telephone exchange, would just lend me anything. But we all wore long socks. They it was either Me? Well, if you're wearing, um, full length gowns and went right to the floor, But we often and then a little bit later, we were in mid, which were, um, split as far up as you could possibly take it. And then you had, um, hot pants underneath. I had, um, several [00:11:00] pairs of different coloured hot pants, but only one skirt. The skirt was a denim blue. I suppose it wasn't denim, but it was a that blue shade. Um, you could successfully, uh, get on the bus, grab it out, and it didn't crease. Um, you only buttoned up the top two buttons which were basically at your waist. And then, um, had the these tiny little shorts on that you would today [00:11:30] say were, um, only just a little bit more than budgie smugglers Or, um, you know, swim swimwear. And they were in bright pinks or yellows or greens, and everybody wore them. And of course, the more you passed your legs, the more people could see that was the whole point of them, you know, Um, did you have a name? I'm just Denise. Yeah, and I always was. Denise, I never chose a name. I never intended to change my name [00:12:00] because I didn't I still don't. I never saw myself as a female. I saw myself as having fun. Um, and it was fun. I had absolutely no desire to change my body. Um, many did, of course. And I was working with people who were in the midst of, um, transsexualism, um, and changing. Uh, S wasn't fully [00:12:30] innocent. I mean, apart from the sexual activity and the fact that there were many, uh, people Yeah, that were selling sex. But we were also illicitly serving alcohol because it wasn't licenced. There were the railway caps, great big, huge, thick mugs full of ram or or anything else. Really? Um, I believe there were other things being sold. I can say that I didn't sell anything other than alcohol. [00:13:00] Um, and bodies. Um, I was more the pimp for the place on occasions. Um, because if I chose to have sex with someone, it was because I chose to, not because I was selling myself, But I loved being a waitress. And I actually think that many of them thought that I happened to be one of the real girls in the place because I wasn't quite as out and obvious as, um, [00:13:30] others were, Um I just took food orders. And, you know, by the time you've served 100 toasted sandwiches and 14 glasses of rum, it doesn't matter. Most of the clients were people off ships, um, officers more than shall we say, sailors or or, um, businessmen or things like that. And they were much more interested in those [00:14:00] who were extremely extrovert. Uh, you know, the the great big tall, um, Polynesian drag queens were exceptionally popular because that's why people came there. And I love them. I just loved the crowd, the people, the times. But I'm really quite happy that I did not take any pills that were being offered. [00:14:30] I did not want to, um, to try hormones. I did not want to change my body. Um, and I was really quite happy with the fact that, um, I had short I had a natural afro, you know, So sometimes I could just leave my hair as it was. But in those days when we went out formally, or shall we say to the dancers, et cetera, your wig? If it wasn't at least 8 to 12 inches high, then it wasn't worth having. Um, everything was in petals [00:15:00] and all of that sort of stuff. So I spent a lot of time setting other people's wigs and all of that sort of stuff, and you'd you'd turn up with them in the evening, and that was that was a fun time. That was a fun time you mentioned just before about pimping. And I'm just wondering, um, can you recall the kind of prices and activities and was it on the same location, or was it somewhere else? But the girls, always all you do is introduce them. The girls always had the conversation about the money because, um, [00:15:30] of course, it was illegal. Um, the only time that I've ever taken, um, money was that I got a, um, English £20 note. Um, and all it was was a blow job. And I just thought I was made because let's that had to be There had to be 100 New Zealand dollars. It had to be. And I hate to say it, but he was It was short fat and hardly worth it. You know, [00:16:00] Um, but all he wanted was to I think he just wanted to say that he had had sex with a person that was actually a male. So, um, that's that's fine. And I and he made me take my wig off to do it. Um, and I swear, I, I sort of thought there must be cameras somewhere where you know what's going on here. That does matter. Um, yeah, that's that was his swell. Um, the [00:16:30] bogs were crazy. Crazy in what kind of way? Well, they were very active, So that the bogs, the beach, the beach? Yes, Um, meeting people in a public toilet and having sits in a public toilet was common because there weren't many other places to go. Now we all know about Wellington weather. Um, you could go to the parks and that and you, But you could never guarantee that you weren't going to be blown off the mountain or or whatever just [00:17:00] by the weather. Um, so, yes. And there were places in some of the high rise buildings. Um um, on the fourth floor of was a a toilet. There were I think there were about 10 or 12 cubicles in that toilet, and it was the business toilet for the building, but it was very, very busy. Um, the [00:17:30] D IC building, um, was similar. I can't remember what floor, but yeah, it was similar, um, and a couple of others. And of course, as I said, the public toilets one of my favourites was one that had a double entrance. And that was frightening. Um, on the corner of Kent Terrace and, uh, and corny place. Yeah. Um and it was underground, right? The idea. Is it still there? Tell me. Oh, it's still there. [00:18:00] It's not a toilet anymore. Oh, Anyway, it had one staircase from one side and one from another side. It was very risky, and I think it was probably. And there were only two cubicles, and I think that the risk was what it was partially all about for some time now I'm talking the fact that II I know I said sex in a toilet, and everybody imagines that that's, you know, getting naked and having intercourse. No, it's not. And it very [00:18:30] rarely is. Um, but certainly, um, playing with someone else. Some oral sex? Yes. Um, really. Rarely did I ever have a knowledge? Of course, that that's really putting yourself. You can't get out of that situation in two seconds flat. Um, you can stop playing with someone if you're standing there. Um, however, I will tell you that I was caught by the police in that toilet. [00:19:00] I was arrested. Um, the charge was, um, allowing someone to perform an indecent act on me. And yes, it did go through court, and I was kept overnight. Now I was wearing, um, male clothing, but it was a brown I. I had a brown like, um, camel hair coat, and it was just my favourite. And, um, I. I don't remember their trousers, but we'll say [00:19:30] probably jeans. Um, and a mid drift T-shirt. In other words, something that just came down halfway down my body. And that was all. And, um, it was a freezing cold night, absolutely freezing cold. But I had removed my trousers and left them in the car. So, in fact, I only had the coach and the mid drift top on. So when the police took me away, I didn't have any pants, so I didn't have my pants on all night. [00:20:00] Um, nothing else happened in. In fact, I'll be really honest. I don't remember anything about the lockup at all, except that I was questioned and questioned and questioned because they wanted to know who I was with. And I had no idea of his name. Um, what we did, which I described. And of course, he was also being questioned at the same time. Um, did [00:20:30] we know others? Was that a, um a place to go? Those were the types of things. Of course, they knew that there was. That's why they arrested us there. But there was no way that I was going to say that, you know, this was as far as I was concerned. It was the first time I'd been there, and it was a casual encounter. Um, was that quite common for police to? Yeah, that's it. Yeah. I thought I'd been set up by this other man, but no, um, he was also caught, but we were then separated, and I don't ever remember [00:21:00] seeing him again. And he may have thought that I set him up, too. Um, but it was quite common that they would send, um, usually hunky men. But I have to say they don't know, and they just didn't know how to behave. You could almost pick them because, you know, they'd play a little bit, but they wouldn't get a hard on. Um, they'd, um What? I think I When [00:21:30] I saw plain policeman, they were either extremely shy gay men. And of course, that's probable too, but, um yeah, but not very good at doing their, um, entrapment. Now, they would also send young boys. I'm very fortunate, but young boys have never appealed to me. And so, um, many times I've left when there's been younger people, um, there with [00:22:00] a police officer. How far would they go to have to prove something? Um, I think you would have had to have touched them or attempted to offer them oral sex or something. Um, if you were seeing masturbating and actually came in a toilet, that was an arrestable offence. But, um, the one time that I did, um, get arrested, I was actually caught in the cubicle with with the [00:22:30] other person. So two people in the cubicle, I mean, that that's sufficient for them. And, um, I think they looked over the time, which always amused me. You know, I wonder how long they watched people before they decided. Oh, well, we've had enough for now, you know, um, but then the next morning, after appearing in court after being charged or with no pants on, I had to. I then had to go to work. Now I had I was meant to have turned [00:23:00] up for work that night and hadn't, um, So I went into work. Everybody was sort of saying, Where were you? What happened? You know, And no one could get hold of me and people were genuinely concerned. Went to, um, the telephone exchange, um, senior supervisor. He took me into a side room, and his main concern was when I told him what happened. He said, Were you caught with anyone else from here? And I said no. [00:23:30] And he said then we don't want to know anymore. You know, I never got a reprimand I never got. Um, you know, it didn't affect my job, all of that sort of thing. Um, and someone did take me home because I had to tell him that I had no pants on. Um, but they were wonderful, you know, absolutely wonderful. Um, because I could have it could have ruined my job, you know? Did that conviction have any other repercussions on your wife? [00:24:00] I have to be honest and say that I probably stayed in toilets for at least a week. Um, it didn't have the results that should have had, um, the desire for sexual excitement. Um, far that it just continues. Now, I believe that that is the case with many people. If they're in, if they're in [00:24:30] a situation where they are having to look for casual sex in a dangerous situation, part of it is the danger. Part of it is the excitement, and that doesn't go away. The damage that it does is probably where they, um people can lose their jobs, people can. Families can find out and be damaged from it. Um, and all of that sort of thing. And And [00:25:00] that did not touch me. I was fortunate. Now my mother I told my mother a long time later and she was more concerned about my job and all of that and and that I was, you know, putting myself in danger because of, um, the fact that someone could kill you or all of that. Those were always my mother's concerns. Um, of course, in those days, HIV [00:25:30] was not around, But there were STD SI caught syphilis while I was in Wellington. But I didn't really know what it was until, um uh, a while later and and and was told while we were having injections in our bottom that there were a large number of people and they dec they considered that it was, um, an outbreak with that syphilis outbreak. Did it change anyone's sexual behaviours? Some, [00:26:00] but not sufficiently. But we were more careful. I'm wondering in the so we're talking in the kind of early to mid seventies, what was the media's reaction to things like, um, being convicted of a kind of indecency in a toilet. Where did they? I didn't have anything about me written [00:26:30] that I'm aware of. And that would have been in the courts and it, you know, because there are always court reporters and things like that. So I don't remember seeing anything, And if it was there, I didn't see it. But there were always, uh, headlines and stories that were, uh, touching on the, uh I'm trying to think of some words, excitement [00:27:00] or extravagance or things like that. You know that they pick on something that was, um, overboard. If a bunch of the, um, drag queens were actually seen in Cuba street rather than Vivian Street, that always made the news. You know, they've actually gone one street over. And, you know, this is just, um, ridiculous. What are they doing out of their territory and all of that sort [00:27:30] of stuff? And, um, at the Royal Oak Hotel was on the corner of, uh, Cuba Street mall. And there was a bar there at the back. Uh, I can't remember it. I can't remember the name of it, But on occasions we would go to that bar. Now I've seen drag queens hitting each other with handbags with books in them. You know, it's just the fights in that bar years ago were ridiculous. And then [00:28:00] several years later, going back and the bar was still there, and it was quite lovely. You know, um, the the situation had changed. There was also there was also a little bar in the middle, and that was much nicer and more comfortable and gay Gay men would go into that bar. But the drag queens were always in the bigger bar at the end, Um, situations like that. But if they did go into the main bar of the hotel, that was, you know, that was just not on, and the newspapers would get [00:28:30] hold of that sort of thing. Or, um, on the there was a triangle, uh, by street and Courtney Place. Yeah, and there's a sort of triangle made by the roads, and there was a toilet right there. Now it was a very, very active toilet. But God forbid, if one of the drag queens was seen cruising along there, you know, it always made the papers, [00:29:00] you know, um and, uh just just different things that were sensational, that those are the sorts of things that they'd report on. I don't remember anyone being named or damaged from newspaper reports. People were always fearful that that that sort of thing would happen. But I don't actually remember [00:29:30] it happening. Um, radio was a bit the same. They wouldn't name people. Do you think it was more tolerated rather than accepted? Wellington was much more tolerant. It will never be accepted. It still won't. You know, people still put a stigma on, uh, anyone that is considered different. [00:30:00] And I think the world of drag will always be considered different. The world of the transvestite and transsexual will always be different. But so in. So is, in some ways, the world of the gay men. For those that don't understand that there is there is definitely love rather than sexual attraction. So, uh, it it will always in some people's minds, only be tolerated. And Wellington was very [00:30:30] tolerant, very tolerant in comparison to, um, Auckland at that time. Um, Carmen. But, um, the Cummins Coffee Lounge and the balcony, which was a strip club, were well known by everybody. And Wellington was proud of those, um, those things, you know, and And people would take visitors to the balcony, you know, and they'd go and they'd see the strippers. And it was, [00:31:00] um yeah, a place where the streets, they loved it. Really? And if you drove by, um, particularly, you know, early in the morning. And there's still girls hanging over the edge of the thing, you know, waving to the crowds and everything that was that was expected. Um, you know, you were actually disappointed if you went by in a bus and you didn't see at least one drug queen early in the morning, and you could say, Oh, that's terrible. They're just going home from work, you know, But But they expected to see it. It was [00:31:30] And and that was what it was. Yeah, tolerance. But it was a very good tolerance. You know, when you consider that Carmen herself, um, ran for mayor, ran for Parliament, Um was very, very popular and did a lot for the community. Her money went back to the people. Um, every single one of those drag queens, [00:32:00] uh, not only worked obviously to make the money, but if there was any trouble, she would be right there to help them. Absolutely. Yeah. Have you seen photos of Carmen? Um, getting a shaking head and a nodding head from my interviewer here, Um, she's gonna kill me, but she was so damn ugly. I'm sorry. That face could have hit a bus. Um, and she knows that. And the her Her [00:32:30] breasts were enormous, but the heart underneath it was the most wonderful, wonderful thing. Um, shut her mouth by Drove that mouth. Now, words coming out of their mouth were loving, kind, gentle. She called everyone dear darling, because I don't think she could remember anyone's names. Um oh, dear. She's gonna hear this and tell me I love you, and you've done a lot for [00:33:00] me. But you know that that's how it was. But by Jo, you have no idea how big that mouth could be when it came to sex. I'm sorry, but I've seen that mouth in action. And, um, she's a clever lady. She's a clever lady. Oh, goodness. I don't believe I'm saying this. However, there are just It's just great memories because I was jealous. I couldn't [00:33:30] do it, you know? Um and it's a It was a turn on the fact that men were having being given oral sex by a person that everybody knew who she was. You know, they talk about it, you know, um, gay men used to talk about and whether they embellish the stories as well. That sometimes happens, of course. But straight [00:34:00] people, you know, um, of course, in her own world, Carmen would often say, You know, she's had businessmen, She's had parliamentarians. She's had this, she's had that. Well, I know that it was true, but every one of those people was just as happy to talk about it in their own circle of friends. You know, that's that's how it was. Um, [00:34:30] OK, Tammy was like a big mum to all of us. Uh, I wish that I had, um, taken notice of who these people were, what their characters were and at that time related to them more than I related to the scene, because I was [00:35:00] relating to what was happening and I was having a good time, but I didn't get to know the people, you know, you just got to know them as being there that night and little bits about their history. I would I wouldn't have much knowledge of where many of them lived and how they lived and how they survived. And all of that. That's the type of thing that I think would be, um, would have done me some good, [00:35:30] you know, because, um, I was working well and living a little bit well, on the money as a single guy that, you know, I didn't have many expenses. I lived in a small flat in, um, above the zoo, and it wasn't expensive. You know, Um, I did go to White House. I went to, um, she lived in Oh, the suburb just through the tunnel. Is [00:36:00] that Yeah. OK, you went through, um, through the tunnel and the the bus tunnel is if you're going from the city, it's on your left. Well, just there. And then there's a little street that turns immediately left. There was a public toilet right there, which was, you know, a regular stopping place of mine. Um, and she lived going down the street straight ahead in a tiny little cottage and one of her very good friends, who I believe, [00:36:30] shall we say, lived with her and looked after her and certainly did her hair and her clothing etcetera. Um, and I'm going to say the name, uh, or or something. He was a Polynesian person. Um, I knew him, but not really, really well, but he also worked as a waiter with us in the townhouse for a wee while. And so we became friends and he would, um, yeah, he'd done my wigs a couple of [00:37:00] times and things like that. Um, and he invited us there. Um, one afternoon and Cary was out. And just to see the house, um, which when I think back on it, we were spying because we were nosy, but it was just full of her character. There were, you know, peacock feathers just everywhere. And, of course, several wigs and clothing. [00:37:30] And it was just there hanging and a huge in What was what I would consider to be the lounge area or the main room was a huge bed. Just that was her bed. That was what it was. And she and I was told that she'd hold court there. You know, people came to visit that such can be on the bed and and I could imagine it. I. I never experienced it, but I could imagine it. But there was this delightful cottage. It was just [00:38:00] there, you know? And she was living in suburbia, just like the rest of us, you know? Um, yeah, that that was a good thing. Well, Danny, it's been, um, great. Uh, hearing your memories of of Wellington in the seventies. Is there anything you want to say before we stop recording? No, but for those that are listening, particularly those from those days, if anyone hears this and picks it up, if you remember who I am, that's fine. [00:38:30] But if you ever, ever want to say hi and you too were there in those days, then come through the interviewer and I'd love to catch up, even for coffee and fancy glasses. It would be cool. Thank you.

IRN: 204
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TITLE: Queer radio in the United Kingdom
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Matthew Linfoot
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; Matthew Linfoot; United Kingdom; media; radio
DATE: 21 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast broadcaster Matthew Linfoot talks about the history of gay and lesbian radio in the United Kingdom.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, my name is Matthew Lin and I worked for the BBC in the 19 nineties. And, uh, one of my main roles was cop presenting and producing, uh, a weekly gay and lesbian magazine programme for the BBC, which went out in the greater London area every week for seven years. The BBC started gay broadcasting quite late on, but actually, if you delve into the archives, you will hear hidden voices, uh, that were [00:00:30] coming out of the airwaves. Well, really? Right back from the, you know, late twenties. You'll find those sort of spinster maiden aunts and Fay young men and confirmed bachelors that crop up in radio dramas, you know, subtly hidden away. Um, there are quite a few good Postwar examples. For instance, the long running radio soap The Archers, the longest running soap opera in the world. Uh, they had a character called Lady Hilb in the early fifties. Now, Lady Hilb um drifted into Ambridge. She was called the Lavender Menace [00:01:00] of Ambridge, apparently, and, uh, she tried to pick up Christine Archer young Christine Archer, who was sort of a late teens impressionable girl and tried to persuade her to go to um, I think it was Ethiopia or or somewhere in Africa as her in inverted commas secretary. And there was there was clearly some sort of lesbian subtext going on. Uh, but actually, Christine, um, had some boyfriend problems at the time, and the whole thing just fizzled out. So some say that Christine had a narrow escape. [00:01:30] Um, there was another radio soap. The Dales, or Mrs Dale's Diary. Was was the first known that ran from the fifties to 1967. Now there was a character in that called Richard Fulton. Now Richard Fulton was a very a sort of Oscar Wilde literary character. Again, the subtext was fairly clear. Except to Mrs Dale. She didn't understand this at all. And Mrs Dale's sister Sally married Richard Fulton. Um, and he did quite well out of this marriage. He got a chauffeur and [00:02:00] two Pekinese dogs and, um, he, um uh, latterly as all these sort of stock gay characters, some nasty incident had to befall them, and he was eventually run over by a lorry. Now he survived. Um, but he was very troubled, deeply troubled. And as the series came to an end in 1967 we discovered that Richard Fulton, uh, went off to Paris to explore his homosexuality. We were told this, uh, which came as a huge surprise to everyone, except well, [00:02:30] in fact, no one but Mrs Dale herself who was terribly surprised about this. So those are sort of sort of the kind of fictional characters. On the other hand, you had some more sort of serious debates. For instance, there was a character called Dr Jakko Bronski. Now he wrote a play which dealt with homosexuality in the early fifties, which was broadcast. And then in 1955 he took part in a discussion programme and the, um, historian of gay radio and television in the UK Keith House. [00:03:00] He credits this discussion in 1955 as the first time that the word homosexuality was actually used on the BBC. Explicitly. This was quite a prescient event as well, because it was just the following year that the wolfenden committee was convened by the conservative Gov government to look into homosexuality and prostitution, both of which were illegal at that time. Uh, so it sort of illustrates that there were sort of shifting grounds and you know public, not necessarily. Attitudes were were [00:03:30] was shifting, but it was that the the the issues were being debated. Um, so that was the mid fifties, um, skipping forward a little bit to the, uh, mid sixties. You had the comedy show around the horn, which ran from 1965 which is a an enormous success. A complete institution. Um, the mainstay was Keith Horn, and he had a selection of comic characters and regular sketches that appeared sort of every week. It was required listening for a Sunday afternoon audience, [00:04:00] and two of the most enduring popular characters were Julian and Sandy, played by Kenneth Kenneth Williams and Hugh Paddock. Um, and the two characters, Julian and Sandy, were chorus boys or retired chorus boys. And every week they kind of set up these comic situations. Um uh, things like they set up bona books and bona boys and they used to do hairdressing. And they tried all sorts of, [00:04:30] you know, different avenues of employment. And they used the gay slang polari. And Kenneth Horn was kind of the to this. He he didn't the foil he comic foil, he he was very straight in this and he's kind of was nonplussed about everything. And it was really interesting because there was a lot of a lot of risque language. Yet it appealed to both sides of the audience. The gay subtext was very clear and very strong. So, you know, any gay men and lesbians would have absolutely loved it. It was written by straight men. Interestingly, Barry took and, [00:05:00] um, uh, Marty Feldman amongst them. And, um, a straight audience would probably sort of take it on face value as sort of good natured camp humour. Possibly not understanding all of the the polari, you know, boner to Vardy dolly old and all of that, You know, at the on that and all of that sort of stuff. Um, but it was It was mainstream popular entertainment. Um, yet interestingly too. Julian and Sandy weren't exactly kind of crusading figureheads [00:05:30] for gay liberation at that time. Uh, they really belonged to the sort of the 19 fifties drawing room theatrical camp tradition. So it was really sort of slightly out of step and out of time. But in 1967 homosexuality was decriminalised. The age of consent was set at 21. Um, moving forward into the 19 seventies. Um, the BBC, you know, obviously had a duty to kind of reflect what [00:06:00] was going on in society. Um, and there was a discussion programme which ran in the early seventies called. So you think you've got problems, which just sound a little bit cliche, but it actually was a sort of a genuine, you know, panel discussion. Uh, people presented their problems and they would try and sort of resolve them in a kind of brains trust kind of way. And a character came along, and I think it was a 73 called Martin. He was in his early twenties, and he came out and his parents reacted very badly. [00:06:30] And so he came on air before the panel and got a very, um, very sympathetic response. I mean, it was said by the panel, you know, it's your parents. You've got to change. You're not doing anything immoral. Um, you've They've got to move with the times, and I think it was quite interesting to kind of say, you know, you you sort of get this impression that the BBC is trying to mediate its way not only between the parental generation, but also these kind of emerging forces where you've got [00:07:00] glam rock. You've got very glamorous bisexuality. You've got the days of, um, gay liberation, which was, you know, it's in its throes, really in the early seventies and was very popular and quite a powerful movement. And you do get the sense, that kind of intelligent conversation and, um, sort of mediated talk was trying to sort of deal with this in a more constructive way. However, uh, an addition of so you think you've got problems? Slightly. Later on, [00:07:30] um 75 roughly dealt with lesbians and lesbian lives, um, and was apparently a whole special build around lesbianism. It was pulled at the very last minute. So the BBC got cold feet, and there were nervous executives who just thought this was something that was too far beyond the pale. Um, by the time we get to the eighties, um, the political landscape has changed dramatically with the election of the Thatcher government and gay men and lesbians, um, were [00:08:00] feeling under attack in in many areas. Um, HIV was starting to be a problem. Um, the Thatcher government had Section 28 which was designed to prohibit the promotion of homosexuality on the rates. So it was basically stopping local councillors, local councils and schools having anything to do with homosexuality. Um, trying to push it back in the closet. So these were turbulent times. And it was, um, interesting that the gay press, [00:08:30] the printed press became very popular. Um, quite powerful, quite a vocal lobby, but much more coordinated. Um, and certainly there were newspapers emerging sort of by the late eighties magazines and so on. Um and it's in the eighties that we heard the first sort of genuine gay community voices on radio. Uh, there was a community station which may or may not have broadcast legally. We're not entirely sure, but an archive [00:09:00] exists in the National Sound Archive at the British Library in London. And these were tapes that were recorded off air. So somebody sat at home basically with a cassette recorder recording these things. And one of the tapes is of a short series called Gay Waves. So this is the first example that we think we've got of, um, British gay radio, and it's it's beautifully done. Actually, it's it's, um, clearly amateur, but great fun. Um and, uh, the way that they could have take [00:09:30] the news and subvert it. So, for instance, they run, um, reports about cottaging problems on the London Underground. So their idea of a traffic report is to talk about, you know, the a provocateur who are operating in the Cottages at Baker Street on the platforms there. But it's clear if you go to Oxford Circus and so on. So it's beautifully knowing and and great fun. And, um, I think it must have been a breath of fresh air for people listening at that time. Um, it was in [00:10:00] 1993 that the BBC kind of grasp the nettle finally and allowed gay men and lesbians, um, onto radio. I think part of the sea change came about because of so many gay men and lesbians just working in the radio industry who were out. I mean, they were out in the workplace. And so there was an internal lobbying as well as an external lobbying, and people felt that, you know, secure enough in their jobs and in their employment to want [00:10:30] to talk about homosexuality. You know, it's it's our lives, so why can't we do this on the airwaves? We're all licenced payers after all. So you know we should be represented And the gay and lesbian community really was the last community to find its voice. There had been Asian programmes, black programmes, Jewish programmes, Irish programmes and so on for many, many years before you finally got to gay programming and it happened in a bit of a burst. Really. In 1993 [00:11:00] Radio four, the National Speech Station uh broadcast a one off programme on Sunday, the 14th of February, Valentine's Day. It was called a Sunday outing and it was just an hours magazine programme designed to reflect gay life in the UK at that time, Um and they had an outside broadcast from Blackpool. Um, they had coming out stories. It was a real of stuff, Um probably a bit ambitious trying to cram everything in and and avoiding [00:11:30] too much controversy. Um, it had a news element as well. Um but that was the first big broadcast. Uh, just a month later, um BBC GLR Greater London Radio, The station that broadcast for the London area, Um where we piloted our gay programme now GLR was quite interesting. It was at that time. It was fairly typical of a BBC local station because they had an FM frequency, which had it the regular [00:12:00] pre, you know, weekday daytime presenters, Um, music based, but with some phone in stuff. Um uh, you know, a mix of content news, obviously. But local stations usually had an AM frequency as well, so they were able to split off in the evenings and do some specialist stuff on AM, which is what GL I used to do. So they had at certain times every evening they had a black programme, a Jewish programme, an Asian programme, An Irish programme [00:12:30] four of these four nights a week. Friday nights was always vacant. They it was almost like, you know, we're waiting for a community to come along and we'll give them this spare hour. And GLR did actually pilot, um, some other alternative gay programmes, including one that featured Paul Gaucci. Now, Paul Gaucci is a very revered, experienced, uh, radio broadcaster. Originally from America, the of broadcasters, um, fabulous guy with rich career [00:13:00] and, um but he's a gay man and he's very out, and he was one of the people who piloted for GLR now, for whatever reason, and nobody's very clear why that programme never made it to air. I came along with my friend Dixie Stewart. We'd been at university together. I was working on the gay press at the time the Pink Paper and Boys magazine. So I kind of had the gay press contacts, the journalism credentials, but no radio experience. Dixie, on the other hand, was a trained radio journalist. [00:13:30] And so we put our heads together and we came up with a gay programme idea. We took it to the BBC. Uh, we were made to do three pilots and eventually they gave us the Friday night slot and we went on air in March 1993. Um, the programme is called Gay and Lesbian London, which you know, is a very clunky title. But it doesn't offend anybody, and it is what it says on the tin and actually it as I think I'm fairly certain that it it [00:14:00] it fit in with the other community programmes because the others were called Irish London, Jewish, London, Black, London, Asian, London. So I think we were, But, you know, we had to be that. Anyway, Um, uh, we probably had debates about whether or not to use the word queer, but I think it was felt that it wouldn't really work on the BBC. And it obviously, it was a very politicised term, particularly at that time. As I remember, I personally had no objection to it. But I, I don't think it would have sat with the programme. Um, at that time, [00:14:30] each programme is an hour hour in length and we followed a magazine format. A very traditional magazine. Really? Um, we included some news. Uh, there was always some interviews, usually big name interviews, if we could get them. Um, there were some regular features we had one of our early regular contributors. Um, was, um Well, we had a paper review newspaper review and we had various people who used to come in and present that, and one of them was a sister of the Sisters of perpetual indulgence that were very big at the time. Another [00:15:00] was a cabaret performer, Adele Anderson, who's still performing today with fascinating Aida. And she's a transsexual. So she kind of brought another element to the programme. Um, and we did some outside broadcasts. I mean, it was a fairly rudimentary programme, as I recall, you know, uh, there was absolutely no money. I mean, we we got paid £35 each as presenters. We didn't really have a producer. We sort of cobbled it together on our own. Um, but we were [00:15:30] lent. I think there was somebody in the office who, um, was a lesbian, and she sort of came and helped us in our own time. But, I mean, it was there. There was no, you know, we we all we all had other jobs, other things that we were doing. It was part time purely and simply, But of course, we were given free reign in to some extent. I mean, we were just left alone to get on with it. And we were We learned as we went along, so we we were, you know, very lucky in some respects, Um uh, that we were allowed to breathe and just, you know, grow the thing organically. [00:16:00] And after about 18 months, I think possibly less than that. Perhaps about a year. Um, the BBC uh uh, there was a big reorganisation of the wavelengths and um all the local stations lost their AM frequencies. Now, of course, GLR could have just said, Well, that's the end of the community programmes. You've lost your frequency, but they didn't. They, uh, kind of submerged them into the FM output. So we were transferred to FM, which was a sign of recognition. You know, that was a good thing. The [00:16:30] other thing we lobbied quite hard for was because they put us out on a Friday night. Not late. I mean, I think it was an eight or nine slot. Um, but, you know, Friday night, we we sort of argued quite vociferously, if if there is one thing that sort of characterises our audience, it's the fact that they're not in on Friday night listening to the radio, um, it took them a while to get that message. So when we went on to FM, we were given Thursdays, which were much, much better, huge relief. And also the reception was much, much [00:17:00] better because FM was a far stronger signal in London. AM was really bad, and we had to play music because was a music station. Um and it it it was It was a really good thing to go on to FM because we began to think more about the music and we tried to integrate our music with the station's music policy. I mean, there was a playlist after all. Um, although we were recognised as a specialist programme. So we tried to integrate ourselves much more within the station to feel part of it, Not just this sort of little ghetto bit that existed somewhere else. [00:17:30] That was quite important. So what were some of the issues that, uh, cropped up when you were establishing the programme in terms of things like, um, being representative choosing hosts? How how did that all work? I think we were really keenly aware that that, you know, it was a very, um it it's it's a big step to try and establish a gay lesbian programme that was trying going to represent everybody. I mean, it's, you know, in some respects it's it's not possible. And also I think we were very, [00:18:00] you know, it was the BBC. Now you know, we presented to the BBC as two Oxbridge graduates, you know, sort of white middle class. So we were safe. Dixie. She brought with her the essential radio skills, you know? And she was an assured performer on air and technically brilliant. Um, so So we were very conscious that we were being very BBC about the whole thing. Even though, of course, the BBC themselves did would run a mile from the suggestion that they were hiring [00:18:30] safe presenters. They didn't like the idea of Oxbridge white middle class people, but we were, you know, we weren't pretending anything else. Um, so we were very BBC in that respect. Uh, we did try. Obviously try to be as inclusive as possible to the many different, you know, sort of sub communities within the gay and lesbian community. Um So, for instance, having Adele on regularly Who's transsexual, Um, and having ethnic minorities represented as well, Probably that was one area that [00:19:00] we struggled with. Because, of course, there are historically some some issues and divides that exist. Um, for instance, pride in those days, the big Pride march or the festival Post Pride Festival was held in Brockwell Park. Brockwell Park is in Brixton. Brixton is has got a huge Afro Caribbean population and has always been It's been very popular with gay men and lesbians as a place to live. But they don't necessarily sit well comfortably side [00:19:30] by side with the African and Caribbean communities or the black minority communities. There have been tensions. And when pride was on, there were a lot of gay bashings. It just happened year after year. So there were lots of complaints and this was sort of one of those, you know, cultural divide issues that I think we found quite difficult to to talk about. You know, it became it became quite an issue, sometimes deposit the notion that some of our brethren in other communities might be homophobic. Uh, but I do recall that [00:20:00] being sort of one of the issues that came up the management themselves, you know, they were obviously quite scared at times. And I remember an executive saying to us, You know, I'm I just I don't want you proselytising on air. I don't want lesbians proselytising about sex. I don't want gay men dressed as nuns running around the place, and we sort of, you know, shook our heads. And of course we did all of those things and much, much more. So was there any other resistance from the BBC to establish a queer programme. No, I don't. [00:20:30] I don't recall that when we started on this station, we were made to feel incredibly welcome. We were I remember going to functions and we were introduced. And we had a fantastic editor, Um, Gloria Abramov, who's an independent producer now and but still producing for the BBC. And she was really proud of us. I mean, she was she was a fantastic patron to have because she would push you and, you know, back you up, defend you. I learned everything from her. Really? Uh, and she was our bullock against anything [00:21:00] that was, if anything was going on politically. And I was probably a bit young and naive, and I probably wasn't aware some of the stuff going on, but she always defended us, and we were always made to feel completely welcomed by all the staff. And you have to bear in mind it was one of those odd odd things, because by saying hello, I'm Matthew and I present the gay programme. It's you You're coming out all the time repeatedly. Uh uh. But but people would, you know, never ever had a problem and it was a very it was a genuinely great station to work on, um, [00:21:30] at that time now it's interesting. At the same time, the a Sunday outing programme that had been broadcast by Radio Four that had been and gone, uh, Radio four decided not to pursue it with a series. However, the production company who made that programme then went to five live now five live is another BBC network so broadcast nationally, uh, they are sport and chat mainly. But they do have some magazine programmes and they commissioned from the production [00:22:00] company a, uh a series of gay news programmes which was called out this week and they went out on a Sunday. Uh, I can't remember exactly what time but a sort of evening slot, and they were commissioned in sort of short series sort of 10 12 week blocks and that coexisted with us very nicely. They I think they started in 94. Um, and it worked really well because they were looking at things from a more news agenda. They kind of had a [00:22:30] hard, hard news. They were very clear on that, Um and they loved getting scoops. And that kind of thing, which we just didn't have the resources to do. We We did our best, but we couldn't really compete on that level. They didn't do music. They only had 25 minutes of their time. Um, they did do personality stuff. They like doing their outside broadcast as well. But it was a very nice mix. And they were national where we were London. The other major difference was that they had money. They they were an independent commission, and they had big bucks. In [00:23:00] fact, I used to do bits and pieces for them. There was a very nice sort of synergy between all of the, uh the sort of those who worked in gay radio, um, which probably didn't didn't exist. I don't think in the gay press so much, but, um So, for instance, my co presenter was a woman called Rebecca Sandals. Now, Rebecca was another old university friend. Um, but she also worked with the out this week crew as well. And later Rebecca left our show to go and work full time for them. Um, [00:23:30] we had, um, other stand in presenters who worked for out this week. I did bits and pieces for them. So it was. It was quite a nice pool of gay and lesbian broadcasters, and we sort of shared ourselves around. Really? So when you started gay and lesbian in London, who were you targeting? Was it a mainstream audience or was it a gay and lesbian audience? We had this fairly clearly worked out, Um, and we called it an assumed perspective. So it meant that we didn't want to be perennially [00:24:00] arguing, um, about coming out. And we didn't want to keep explaining or apologising what it was like to be gay, which had been the tendency for a lot of gay media in the past. I mean, you would simply end up with endless debates justifying being gay, which is probably what a Sunday outing kind of came up against a bit in their programme. But, I mean, you know, they that was only the first one. But it was an awful lot like, this is what it's like to be gay. So we just stepped [00:24:30] back and said, No, we're just going to be who we are and just look at life as we see it as simply as that on a more serious side and And this came from Dixie. She always said, you know, the one thing she absolutely wanted amongst above, above all else was to reach out to people who felt that they were alone. I mean, this is the big US P for radio, Of course, it's that, you know, they people can be listening at home, under the bed, clothes in private, in the closet. You know, you [00:25:00] don't have to come out to listen to a gay programme. And so we were We were keenly aware that we just wanted to make sure that anyone anyone could access and listen to the programme. And if we stopped somebody, you know, um, from harming themselves or if we helped somebody who needed to get in contact with somebody else to talk about what they were going through then we were doing, you know, a public service that was, you know, really clear to us now, whether it was mainstream or a gay audience. I suppose [00:25:30] we didn't really care. In a strange way. I mean, you know, whoever heard us heard us, we certainly didn't want to be exclusive. I mean, we were very clear I I do remember some of the early programmes could be far too insular. And we could be very, um just like a gay cocktail party. We were having a great time in the studio, but didn't matter about anybody who was listening and and that, you know, we had to keep pulling it back from that. But as to who was listening, well, I mean, you know, when we ran competitions or get guests [00:26:00] on the phone or things like that, you know, who knew if they were gay or straight? I mean, we didn't ask. It was they could have just been the regular station listeners, or they could be people who just tuned in for that one hour. I think the one thing we wanted to guard against was we didn't want to have people who were listening to the station. Um think, Oh, it's eight o'clock. We've got to switch off now because this isn't for us, you know, I mean, by using the station's music policy by using all of the branding. You know, we were very clear that we were part [00:26:30] of that integrated output, but, I mean, I'll give you some examples, you know, the the guy who used to, um it was my car mechanic, and I used to take my car in every year for a service and, you know, a straight guy from South London. And 11 time I took his car and he says, Do you do a show on the radio? Then I said, Yeah, yeah, And he listened, you know, he was he was a GLR listener and he would just listen. I mean, I I've always met over the years all sorts of people who caught the the show. You know, that's great. [00:27:00] Did you ever consciously stop or start yourself from using language that was specifically used, say, in gay and lesbian culture? Well, we did have a few issues. Um, language is a a really hot potato for the BBC anyway, and still is to this day, and the the ways things are produced today are so far removed from how we did it. But there were times when the BBC, [00:27:30] when in the form of our editor, was a bit nervous. I remember one of the earliest was a discussion about safer sex and say, for sex and gay men, you know, you need explicit language or you need the language that gay men talk in. Um, and I remember having, you know, endless discussions about what we could and couldn't say. So, for instance, we couldn't I remember this. We, uh we we were talking to the health worker, Andrew, and he was going to explain [00:28:00] whatever it was, he want the point he wanted to make, But he wasn't allowed to use the phrase precum couldn't say precum, for some reason, we were told. So we said, Well, what can we say? And apparently we could say pre seminal fluid. So that's what the poor guy we had to say. Look, you can't say that, but you can say this. You got to say pre seminal fluid Now, obviously, the F word was was largely out of bounds. Um, except on [00:28:30] two occasions, I do recall when it concerned a piece of work, there was a book by I think it was Dale Peck called Effing Martin, and we were allowed to say that. And then there was the the play by Mark Ravenhill, shopping and effing, and we were allowed to say that as well. So now and again if you if you were forewarned. If you told them it was These are obviously referable words. And you said, Look, we're going to say this. Can we say this, please? And they would say Yes. You can say it once and once only, and you mustn't use it. You know, you gotta be sensible [00:29:00] about it. So we were allowed to do those sorts of things. And then there was this terrible, terrible occasion when, uh, one of our guests, um, came on the show and she had been to review This was Angela Mason. Angela Mason ran Stonewall, which was the big gay lobbying group. And so she she was, you know, an enormously influential woman. Um, done a lot of good work with the community. Anyway, we sent off to review a play at the National Theatre. She came on, talked about this play and [00:29:30] she talked about the humour in the play, and she talked about a joke that was in this play. I can't even remember what the play was. Unfortunately, the punch line of this joke involved the C word which she had told us, and I I was just a bit too slow on the uptake. I just thought Did she just say that? And I just thought of anyway, I just moved on my producer, the other side of the glass. She heard it and she phoned up the deputy editor because there'd been a bit of an issue about language on the station. Generally, Deputy Editor said, [00:30:00] get her out in the studio. So we had to get her out of the studio and say, I'm really sorry. So we just cut her off. Um, And then it went off to the editor, the managing editor, and he went ballistic, And he he I remember sort of, you know, phone calls into the night. He was convinced he was going to get the sack. It was all my fault and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah And, of course, what had happened. You know, he sort of got this image of this sort of shaven headed lesbian sort of jumping around the studio shouting obscenities, whereas in fact, Angela Mason had dinner with Cabinet [00:30:30] ministers. You know, on first name terms with the great and the good, you know, And it was a genuine slip up. Um, so it was eventually smoothed over Angela apologised, and we had to. Our punishment was we had to prerecord for a couple of weeks, but it was the worst moment of my career. What about areas that you just would not cover on radio? Were there things that you that were just No go? I don't think there were, to be honest, I mean, I think the only things that we the only limitations we had were [00:31:00] really our budget, lack of and resources. There was an awful lot of goodwill. Um, and we did do some quite ambitious stuff. Um, I mean, I'll give you some examples of the things we did do. Um, but so we certainly did cover, uh, sexual health a lot. Um, we made sure we did that. Um, we used to do these great one hour specials. Um, where you would sort of get a panel in, and you'd sort of prerecord it, and it would be thematic. So we did one [00:31:30] about gay parenting. Older gay men and lesbians. I remember interviewing Quentin Crisp for that one. we used to do we did one on gay teenagers. There was definitely a lesbian special. Those So those themed things were really good. We were the first programme, I believe, to broadcast a live outside broadcast from pride. Um, which is brilliant JL. I had an outside broadcast vehicle which resembled a sort of a hot dog van with a plank out the front. I mean, it really was. It was very tacky, [00:32:00] but we had a great day. I mean, every and everyone wanted to come and talk, you know, there was no one said No, Um what we did. Music specials. We used to do these brilliant shows where we would just get one guest in for an hour and they would just choose their music. And it was a really good way of getting to know people, and it was a bit like Desert Island discs, but you could really get to sort of find out what made them tick. So we had people like Peter Tatchell. Who's the big gay rights campaigner? Uh, we had Angela Mason, the aforementioned Angela [00:32:30] Mason. Um, Jimmy Somerville did one. I think boy George did one. You know, Um oh, Janice Ian was one of my favourites. The singer Janice Ian. She was terrific. Um, so I think I think the one thing. The one thing that we probably didn't do as a as a, um, as a format was we just didn't do phoning, you know, that wasn't part of our remit. Um, I think if you were doing a gay programme now, you would It would just be very phone in based and very [00:33:00] interactive. Remember, we were pre Internet days, you know, we were like, when we did competitions. Uh, you could get people on the phone sometimes. Or you could just be writing the answer on a postcard. You know, it was it was the old school, So interaction with the audience, um, was fairly slow and limited. Um, but we didn't really go in for phone ins. It's interesting. Those names that you mentioned of some of the interviewees. I mean, they they are big names. Do you think having the BBC behind you did that [00:33:30] help or hinder the programme? Oh, it definitely helped. I, um I think also we were part of the station, which helped as well, and there were planning meetings and, you know, the you know what it's like the the competition that goes on to get the big name guest for your show. But these things were gene generally coordinated, and often you could get somebody like Victoria Wood who would come in and do the morning show and talk about one particular thing. And then we would grab her for a prerecord to [00:34:00] talk about something else that we could play out, you know, slightly later or a week later or something. So we did try to be, you know, to share. And and sometimes when it was boy George, you know, he we would get him and the others wouldn't get him, you know, he wouldn't do daytime. He would just do us. So yeah, it certainly helped by being BBC, but not always. I always remember trying to get Dusty Springfield, and she just said no. And you know, so some people were Alison Moyer. We always wanted to interview her for some reason, she always said no, you know. So there are some people that slipped [00:34:30] through the net. What was the size of your audience? Um, there was a radar. Uh, radar is the audience, uh, sort of measuring system. And, um, it only actually kicks in when you get I think it's about 500,000 listeners. And, um, so we did crop up in the radar figures, but only just because we were just over the 500. Roughly, [00:35:00] um, it often had to do with who you had on the show before what your inherited audience was. Um, so we didn't. Yeah, it wasn't new numerically that big London is a hugely competitive radio market as well. One thing we did get, though, was in in those days, there was something called the Listeners Advisory Council. Every local radio station had to have a panel of listeners and they would have monthly meetings and they would do a programme review. And I always remember [00:35:30] we produced a tape for them. And then we went and sat before the committee on on the evening, um, and listened to their feedback, and they loved it. I mean, as far as I recall, they all were genuinely very interested in it and very supportive and very encouraging. Those councils don't exist anymore, which I think it was a great shame being in the public eye. Did that change your life in No, not I was not in the public eye. No, no, no. The the the There was absolutely no fame or celebrity [00:36:00] attached to this whatsoever. It just didn't exist for me. I mean, I, I really you know, it It didn't have any particular impact at all. Except for your mechanic. Yeah, for my mechanic. No, I mean, it was genuinely very nice if people said that they listened to the programme, but it it wasn't. I was quite clear early on, Um, I listened to people and sort of I I worked out, but I didn't have the kind of the ego to be a big presenter if I wanted to. If [00:36:30] I, you know, if I had that drive and ambition, I could well have, um, you know, gone on into the mainstream as it were. I mean, one example is, um, the pre the presenter of Jewish London. For a while was a woman called Vanessa Feltz. I don't know if you've ever heard of Vanessa Feltz, but she was, um quite, you know, quite a character. Very good presenter for the Jewish programme. And she then sort of made it onto the mainstream. She became an afternoon presenter on the station. She then got picked up by television she had a morning [00:37:00] chat show. I mean, she's, you know, a very big broadcaster in the UK. Now she's she's got her own. She's got she's back on BBC London, you know, with the morning show. And she's just starting on radio two in the early mornings. You know, that path was there. Um, I decided instead I wanted to learn more about production. So as well as presenting, I took on producing the show. And that's where I learned, you know, a lot. And it was where I was able to use my radio skills to diversify and do other things which I love doing. [00:37:30] How how did the gay and lesbian community respond to the show? Uh, that was very difficult to tell. The gay press always put us in the listings, and we managed to get a few stories in there. Um, I think, you know, one litmus test was when there was a big gay story. So I remember one. There was the the scientist who came up with the hypothalamus theory about why [00:38:00] gay men are gay because of somebody with the hypothalamus. Um uh, other big stories that came along. There was a gay serial killer on the loose in the mid nineties. Um, you know, So when big things happen like that, the mainstream media would often turn to us because, you know, it's like, Well, where do you go? Oh, look, there's this gay programme and I think that was very gratifying. And I think that obviously gave us a bit of status and kudos, and it, you know, it justified our existence and what we were doing. [00:38:30] Um, but it didn't always sort of work the same way with the gay press. And I, you know, we we could never be quite certain because the gay press was quite far reaching in those days, you know, everyone picked up the gay papers, the the free papers especially. And I wasn't sure whether it perhaps we weren't because we didn't place adverts. BBC didn't buy advertising, you know, Perhaps that's why they ignore us. If we bought ads, they might have given us a bit more attention. [00:39:00] Um, I do remember doing a few public events. We did some fundraisers. We would sometimes be on panels for discussions, judging panels and things like that. I think I cop presented an award ceremony once, So there were a few things like that. But I think it was probably, you know, the lack of publicity that we had that did make life a bit difficult. Um, but when we did things like, um, you know, pride and we had a visibility and a you know, some image there that that certainly [00:39:30] got us some attention. Can you talk a wee bit about some of the more controversial moments on the show? Oh, oh, yeah, I can. There was 11 of the issues I mentioned thing about race and sexuality. And somebody wrote a book. A lesbian white lesbian journalist wrote a book about how she sort of was trying to how she saw the divisions between the lesbian [00:40:00] community, particularly on race lines. So and And I think it was quite a provocative book. And there was a column in a weekly magazine as well. That kind of stoked up the debate as well, which so you could tell that this was a real, you know, tricky issue. Uh, anyway, so we had the author of the book. Uh, she was on the phone and in the studio, we had a woman called Linda Bellos. Now, Linda Bellos was very well known. She's, um uh the she was the leader of the the council in part of London. [00:40:30] She was a lesbian, but, um, also African Caribbean origin. So she sort of crossed various communities and and quite a, um, hard hitting woman. So she she she didn't pull her punches. And that was, you know, it wasn't so much a discussion. It was, uh it was It was, you know, it was a real fiery debate. And I was with my co presenter, Rebecca and we, but we had both had real difficulty contribute at controlling this. You know, the author on the phone, [00:41:00] Linda in the studio at each other's throats. And we we we found it quite. I certainly found it quite difficult to be one of my you know, I'm very weak at that. Kind of, uh uh. Being tough on those kinds of, you know, things. Rebecca was much better than me. But I do remember the one thing I did say, You know, my my contribution to this. I simply said to Linda, look, you know, hasn't Megan the author hasn't she just got the right to say what she said. I mean, that was just, like throwing, you know, petrol on a fire. It sort of all blew up from there. So, um, it it Yeah, [00:41:30] that that was I do remember that as a really dodgy moment. Um, And I think sometimes we, um that was live. But we did sometimes prerecord things if we weren't happy. Comedians actually can be quite difficult because they they you know, some comedians like to push the envelope, and I'm not sure that they quite understand where the boundaries are. And they just think they can be controversial for the sake of being controversial and on live radio. Um, there was one American comedian who was actually banned by the BBC. [00:42:00] I mean, he goes around telling everyone he was banned by the BBC, and he certainly we we used him in the early days quite a lot, and I really liked him, but he didn't quite know where the boundary was and he would keep crossing it. We had another comedian who came on and started making references to a court case that was ongoing, which, of course, is an absolute no no. So we had to cut her off, so I think they were just the regular broadcasting. Um, traps that exist. How long did the show run for? Well, we ran gay, Lesbian London ran until, um [00:42:30] 97. I think it was. And then gradually, all of these London the London tag had started to disperse. So, for instance, the Jewish programme had ceased to be, you know, Jewish London. It was just named after the presenter. And, um, I was on to my next cop presenter. By that point, it was Jackie Clone who was a cabaret performer. Um and we decided to rebrand the programme. We thought the other thing was 97 was the watershed here because the labour government was elected. So a lot of the things that we've been fighting for, [00:43:00] you know, an equal edge of consent and the repeal of Section 28 and so on. These were all starting to happen. So in a sense, gay politics became rather depoliticized. So this whole sort of gay, lesbian London agit prop identity didn't really sit well with us. So we rebranded. We called ourselves the Lavender Lounge, so we carried on Weekly Programme magazine format. But the premise was, um, less news, and we we really just went to the theatre. I mean, we we we used to have, uh, regular [00:43:30] contributors, and we would just go and review things. And, uh, so we would always do books and, um, theatre, film art, a whole range of stuff. And it it, you know, it worked for a very successful format. But it was it was a change. Um, that continued until 2000. In 2000, the station rebranded, and a lot of the old content was dropped. And there was clearly no place for our programme in that, um and so the programme came [00:44:00] to an end. Interesting out this week also ended their run, Uh, in 99 or 2000 as well. So it it was the end of the year, right? And and we weren't the only gay programmes as well in the nineties. Um, you know, you wait for one and a whole busload arrives. There was, uh, a community station called Freedom FM, which broadcast in London. Um, there was GAY, which was run by a club promoter called Jeremy Joseph. Now he did go out in the middle of the night on a community station. Um, but he because he was a club [00:44:30] promoter, he had great showbiz contacts, and he got some really interesting, you know, guests on. Um, there was a the Manchester BBC Manchester station. They broadcast something called Gay Talk as well, so they were Suddenly there was a glut of gay broadcasting in 2000. They'd all gone. And it was It was partly because, as I say, um, all the things we've been fighting for had come about. I think there was an argument [00:45:00] that, you know, we'd become to to exist in a bit of a ghetto and that mainstream, everyday programming was doing the gay and lesbian stuff that we were doing. So why did you need a special gay and lesbian show? I mean, that is was a good argument. I think we were very clear that there were enough stories still to be told, but I do think we had run out of steam at that point. So we kind of accepted it as as our fate, but also as, um, [00:45:30] as an indication that a job well done, we'd succeeded. We were redundant because we'd done our job. And now, looking back, do you still think that way? No, I think things have changed. Um, it's 10 years and a lot's happened in that time. Um, there is still some gay radio around, um, gaydar radio in the UK, which is attached to the website. It's it's really just a musical accompaniment. Um, [00:46:00] but they they have done. They have tackled some issues. They do do some speech content. Um, there are obviously a whole host of small Internet stations, mainly jukebox stuff, music based. Interestingly, there is one station in the UK now, um, which is a community station, and it's the first full time, permanent licenced community gay station in Manchester. It's called again, very music based. So there are little pockets out there, but I think things have changed. I think [00:46:30] actually, there is a generation of gay men and lesbians who are quite keen on looking back a bit at gay heritage. And, for instance, I've done work with a group in London, uh, called the House of Homosexual Culture, and and we've been working on sort of looking at our past again and trying to get a debate going, and we've done events in theatres and various spaces, you know, sort of tours and walks. And we've done some some affairs and all sorts of, anyway great activities. And it was obvious that there was a there [00:47:00] was a need. There was something that gay men and lesbians felt that was missing in their lives. There's also a new generation, younger gay men and lesbians. I haven't got a clue about what goes on in their lives. And although they've seen some advances and you know, they they they're blissfully ignorant of things like Section 28 and they all they know is an equal age of consent. Yet I think there are still political issues that affect them. And there is still huge homophobia in schools. Terrible, homophobic bullying, which is really serious and very bad, which needs [00:47:30] to be countered. So all in all, I think there is still an audience for some specialist gay output. And I think there, you know, there, there there is. There are stories again, still to be told. And I think there is room for, um, gay broadcasting from a gay perspective where that would go and what that would be like. I don't know. Because, of course, the radio landscape has changed so much in the last 10 years. Magazine programmes don't exist. Um, stations predominantly phoning based, [00:48:00] Um, you know that although there are new technology allows lots and lots of different ways of broadcasting, it's almost narrow casting in a way, so I don't know where it would exist. But perhaps we're all broadcasters. Perhaps it's just up to us to produce our own output and put it out on websites and podcasts. I think a really interesting example is someone like Tom Robinson, who was a gay activist in the sixties and seventies and is now a mainstream BBC presenter. Yeah, Tom was, um [00:48:30] um, he he was a musician with the Tom Robinson Band. Had the big hit. Glad to be gay in 79 I think it would be. And he, um, carried on touring well, well into the nineties. Now he and I made a programme together. He was a guest on the show, and, um, he said, 01 of the sides between records. Um, he said, Oh, you know, I've always wanted to do a programme about the hidden, uh, sexuality and sexual meaning in music, and this idea sort of just sort of planted a little seed. And I went and did [00:49:00] some research and pitched it to. So would you like us to make this documentary? And they were like, Oh, yeah, go on, then that'll be nice. It'll be nice. Put it out of Christmas. It'll be good. So we did and we went away. We made this programme and it basically traced sort of way back to the, uh, early twenties, the blues. Um, you know, be Betty Smith songs. Alberta Hunter songs, uh, which has sort of had subliminal gay messages and and we sort of traced this beautiful narrative. Tom scripted it brilliantly, and and [00:49:30] we we just sort of threaded this narrative through Cole songs. And and he ended up with David Bowie and Bob Dylan. Um, anyway, lovely programme. It went out and we won a gold at the Sony Awards that year, which is fabulous. It was really, really lovely. And Tom has got a great voice and, um and he's a very, very good broadcaster, and he's he's sort of created a second career for himself and now hardly does music at all. And um is a broadcaster and he has, [00:50:00] um, presented on all the networks. He he had a series called the Locker Room, which was a kind of a men's programme, a sort of metrosexual type men's programme that ran for a few series. And then, um, most recently, he's on six music music station, and he's He's a producer, a presenter, and particularly promoting new music and new bands as a mainstream presenter. Is he openly out? He? His sort of sexual history, Um, has [00:50:30] changed somewhat. Um, he's he's now with a woman, and he's a father. So, um, and I and I think that was he he the gay press was certainly, um they certainly gave him a hard time over it. I mean, I'm not sure what label he's he's comfortable with. Uh, it never posed a sort of an issue to my programme or to us. I mean, it was, you know, he's just Tom, Um uh, you know, no matter what he does, but the gay press can be quite dogmatic [00:51:00] about these things. And straight media, of course, don't understand it. They don't you know, it's how we don't understand this sort of you know their their their way of dealing with. I mean, interestingly, Jackie, who was, you know, one of my co presenters, um, uh, you know, was was at the forefront of lesbian cabaret, toured with lesbian theatre companies and so on. Anyway, um, she's now with a man and the mother of triplets, uh, you know, and has got a great career in musical theatre. So you know, these these blurred [00:51:30] lines, I think we just live with them. So could you paint finally, a picture of what? Your ideal kind of lesbian gay queer, um, broadcasting landscape would be like, Mm, I suppose. I'd like to hear, uh, for instance, on mainstream stations. I would I would love to hear people, um, perhaps doing, um, say a specialist hour with just thinking about gay artists and [00:52:00] gay music. Um, and Tom and I explored this. We did do a couple of other programmes together, which sort of looked at some of those lesser known artists, um, like, um, kitchens of distinction. And, um, there's a lot of stuff that came out of America at one point. You know, Annie de Franco. All of these acts, um, that that just don't receive enough aeroplane enough attention, really? And they stand up to some quite interesting sort of exploration. So I sort of I'd be [00:52:30] interested in sort of, you know, regular series that think about gay artists or lesbian artists. Um, I'd like to hear, you know, a programme that might be just thinking about gay literature and gay writers and so on from that sort of queer perspective, you know, So I'd like to hear phone in topics that don't just sort of pick on gay issues for the sake of Oh, it's a gay thing, but more from a gay perspective. And I'd certainly like to hear programmes that are [00:53:00] thinking about bullying in schools and and how we deal with, you know, sexual issues with young people. You know as well as older people. You know, these sorts of discussions, you know, say for sex. You know, do we just take for granted, say, for sex these days? Where are the safer sex messages coming from? You know, that landscape has completely changed, and those sorts of topics never seem to get discussed. They sort of get pushed into the background somewhere. Um, you know, as as the legislative equality [00:53:30] has become a little bit more entrenched, you know, as you get equality in so many things and civil partnership and all of these things, that surely then creates other issues that need to be thought about and discussed and debated. So I would just like to hear lots of pockets of different things going out which have just got that, you know, queer identity and gay perspective.

IRN: 154
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/miriam_saphira_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003884
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089178
TITLE: Miriam Saphira profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Miriam Saphira
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; Auckland; Charlotte Museum; Gay Auckland Business Association (GABA); Kaimiro; Miriam Saphira; activism; archives; coming out; growing up; lesbian; library; profile; research; writing
DATE: 29 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Miriam Saphira talks about growing up, being a writer and researcher, and establishing the Charlotte Museum. This podcast was funded by a generous grant from the GABA Charitable Trust.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi, I'm Miriam. And people often wonder why I was have been motivated to do the things that I have done. So today I'd like to talk a little bit about some of that motivation. Um, because, really, the the bottom line is I don't want people to be as as miserable as parts of my life have been. And to me, it was about education, About information. Um, I think information giving out collecting and giving out information [00:00:30] is perhaps the key to a lot of the work that I've done. Um, the the first thing that I remember was a trauma, and it seems like mostly it's easier to remember trauma as a very young child than anything else. And that's a bit sad because it stays with you for the rest of your life. My mother had to have a farm worker in the second. I was born during the Second World War. Why? She called me Miriam Edna. Two Hebrew names. When Hitler was killing every Miriam he [00:01:00] could find, I could never understand. Um, but when I was about 18 months old, she was attacked by the farm worker who tried to rape her and tried to smother me as I was screaming. And so I've always had a fear of the dark. And, of course, a fear of loss of breath. Not surprisingly, I'm an asthmatic. Um, and I suffered a lot from bronchitis as a child. So after that I, I went to school early. There were no other Children born during the district. During that time. All the men were away at war [00:01:30] and the men. And I do understand that man who attacked my mother, he would have been rejected by the armies as not fit to go overseas. He was young. He was then excluded from the great adventure as the men saw war as being an opportunity for overseas trip and etcetera. Um, so he would have been resentful, and, um and it would have questioned his manhood. So he would have been a smouldering heap [00:02:00] of resentment, something that I really came to understand when I worked with sex offenders in my time working in the prison. So then I, um I was fairly bright and and learned to read by myself when I was four, went to school at four and did get beaten up quite a lot at school because I was good at things and finished my work earlier than everyone else. So they were plotted along. So I was often given task by the teacher of teaching the other Children because it was a small country school. I grew up in Taranaki and [00:02:30] very small country area. And of course, we had blackout during the war and rationing and things like that. So that all added to a sense of restrictions and and fear. Um, when people are hanging up curtains because of something outside that you don't understand as a three and four year old, it embeds a sense of foreboding in you and and fear. Um, however, it hasn't stopped [00:03:00] me attacking things on a social level, which is probably, uh, important. And one of I've done a lot of work, I suppose, in the sexual area, and and I've always had a strong interest in sex and understanding how it functions. So it's not surprising that I first fell in love when I was about 10. I I'd always liked this girl next door on the next door farm. Um, I remember when I first moved into the district when she was four, and I gave her [00:03:30] my Dole, and I was a bit annoyed that she didn't really want to play with it. I thought it was a big sacrifice on my part. So, um, by about 10, I was, uh, totally infatuated with her, um, and got as far as trying to kiss her. Um, but not really understanding what I was feeling. And it wasn't until we were at high school and I menstruated and she laughed at my discomfort because I really [00:04:00] still thought I could marry her. But menstruation put a whole different thing. I was definitely a girl, and I wasn't about to be able to marry another girl. And I think the realisation I was very upset. I remember coming home on the school bus and she laughed at me, and I had never experienced that. This great feeling that I had for her just went poof out the window. It's sort of like it went out the bus window, and I thought, Gosh, is that what [00:04:30] happens? And so I trundled along at high school, starting to I'd started off really well and started to fail. Um, started to had a bad on the gym teacher carved her name on the trees around the gym, left my school certificate French exam early because I had the opportunity to be with the gym teacher by herself. Uh and so I only got 30% for school. C French. Um, the gym teacher was far more important, you know, on that day, [00:05:00] not having any idea of the future and what good school E Marks might have enabled me to do. However, I, um, just felt frustrated, Um, about the whole all my feelings towards females. And, uh, and when I was about, I was around about 14. I think my eldest sister was just before she left home, had been reading the dictionary. And [00:05:30] so I'd obviously heard the word homosexual and we had every man's encyclopaedia, a whole lot of volumes of it. And so I, uh, looked up homosexuality. And there I can still see the line that said that homosexuals had arrested development and, of course, in my naivety, I thought they were all short. And Colleen, the girl of my desires at that time was short, and Mary had been short, so I thought, OK, they must all be short [00:06:00] so I kept looking for short people. But I suddenly got a growth spurt and started to grow. And, of course, by the six of them I was one of the tallest in the school at New Plymouth Girls High School. And I just couldn't work out why I was so big. And homosexuals were supposed to be short. And I thought I was a freak, and I must be the only one in the world. And one day in despair, I saw a bottle of poison and drank it. At that point, I was a good a good singer [00:06:30] with a high range of voice. I love singing. Um, of course, burnt all my throat. Um, but it was a rash, impulsive act, and I obviously didn't want to die. I rushed to the fridge to get milk to try and calm the throat. I became a blues singer overnight. Um, my voice was husky for a long time. Um, but that sort of despair and desperation, which I have met in so many people over the years, in my work as a clinical psych, that I just [00:07:00] hate the idea of people having to go through that just to find out some information. Had I had information, it would have made a big difference. Correct information that has made a big difference to my life. Did did you tell anyone about drinking the poison? No. No, I There were many things that happened to me that I never told anyone because often it was because I'd done something wrong. Like the time I was tired of the hail [00:07:30] hitting my legs. I had bare legs coming home from school. So I stood against the pine tree and the other side of it got hit by lightning. And so I ran all the way at home, absolutely terrified. So that was I never told anyone for years because, of course, I was told never to stand under trees and two and when it was raining and two never run in a storm. And the next time, of course, it was. Only a couple of weeks later, there was a pig all covered in, um, burn marks from running [00:08:00] across the the the pig paddock and got hit by lightning and and smelled. I could smell the crackling and cooked pork. And and again, I was so terrified that someone would have found out that I'd stood under the tree. And every time I went to school, I looked at the tree and half it was burned. And so it was a reminder. There were a lot of reminders in my childhood about things that I I, um we didn't have a religious background, but there were a lot of things that embedded [00:08:30] a strong sense of guilt. Like when I forgot to get the kindling and my mother chopped up a box the next morning to light the coal range and chop the top off his thumb. So my sisters bought the music. He holds a lantern while his mother chops the wood, and they used to play it all the time. And I was young and cringed. I was about eight or nine years old. So what kind of head space were you in after swallowing the poison and then trying to help your throat with the milk? I mean, where did you go from there? [00:09:00] Uh, I then decided to swallow alcohol and started visiting my parents cupboard. They had lots of strong spirits, and so I would take swigs out of the cupboard. And by 16 I was going to dances. It was always rugby club or rugby league club dancers in and the star GM in New Plymouth. And if there was ever an opportunity to get alcohol, then I would head for alcohol. And so, um, [00:09:30] it's not surprising that I, um he's got drunk and got pregnant. But But in the meantime, my brother I had my father went blind when I was at school when I was just towards the end of the Fifth form and into the sixth Form and went completely blind, couldn't see whether the light was on or off, and my brother had just been arrested for vandalism and and thieving. He he he had been premature, and he he was a mixed bag and lots of problems. [00:10:00] And so my father thought compulsory military training would make a man of him, since my father had fought in the First World War and and trained troops for the second, um, he had great faith in the Army. So my brother went off to the army and I left school and ran the farm, and I loved farming. I loved the cows. And so when John came back of course, We argued about the cows a lot because he would go off on the tractor and not and leave the cups on the cows and so on. And And so even after I'd had an operation, [00:10:30] um, he went to my father, was rushed out, he could hear the tractor going and the milking machines going at the same time, which is incompatible. So he rushed out and started shouting. And of course, my brother couldn't hear because of the noise of the tractor and walked right off the veranda. So I was mortified. So I held my stomach from the operation and went over and finished the milking. I was in agony and But the next morning I got up and milked the cows because I couldn't [00:11:00] bear, um, the cows being so mismanaged. Um, we had an argument one day and it was been over the cows, and he, um, grabbed the rifle and shot at me and shot my dog dead. I knew I had to leave the farm even though people from the district tried to persuade me not to. I knew that my life depended on my leaving. I could not be here to see what he was doing. Um, I'm not very good at at being blind to things happening, but [00:11:30] I quit. Couldn't. And I think 17 I think I was I couldn't really cope with it. And of course, not surprisingly, I drank even more. So whenever there was an opportunity to to go to a party, it didn't matter who the party was. So I probably put myself in a few risky position. Uh, but I, um, met a bunch of people who were into snorkelling and and I. I didn't know an alternative but to have a boyfriend because everybody had [00:12:00] boyfriends. So one became my boyfriend and he taught me about snorkelling. They'd paddle out on surf skis and and we'd die for crayfish and power and fish. And I just loved it and that. And then afterwards you could sit around with a flag and a beer, and I could consume vast amounts of that as well. So, um, that was how it was. And Colleen? I mean, the the girl that I was keen on was going to Teachers College. And so [00:12:30] I applied secretly to go to Teachers College. I can do a few secret things and hitchhiked to the interview. Nobody knew. And then I walked home to be at home in time for the cows and got accepted. And so I went off to teacher's college, but only lasted a year. As I said, Got drunk, got pregnant, and he was a nice middle class boy I'd been snorkelling with. And so he married me, and we ended up having lots of Children. But neither of us, uh, he knew [00:13:00] I was homosexual, but didn't really We didn't really understand the ramifications of anything about it, and I didn't meet anybody in 1963. I just lost a baby then, and he was at Auckland for a year. And so we had a flat in Devonport and I used to come over and go up and down Custom Street because there was this coffee bar do and I went in and I did have enough money to buy a coffee one day, and there were all these people, and I was fascinated by them [00:13:30] talking, and they just seemed to me to be the sort of people I might like. I didn't even think in terms of homosexuality, but I felt a connection. But I felt totally out of place having a child in a push chair. So I left after I had the coffee. And after that, I never felt enough courage to go back. And I would walk past and look in, um and so nothing ever happened. We went back to New Plymouth, and then, um, we came back [00:14:00] to Auckland. Really? With my pushing up, I had found a book on logic in a secondhand shop that in 1963 and that sort of interested me in in education. But, um, while I was down here, we came back to Auckland in 1966. But just before that, my son was at kindergarten and I was on the committee at the kindergarten. I already had. My parents always had a social conscience, so I knew that if Children were at kindergarten, you got involved and and so on. So I had done that, and [00:14:30] I was appalled that women were smacking their Children for crying when they left them at the kindergarten. So I stood up at a meeting and spoke out about it. There was dead silence, and then they went on with the meeting and I thought to myself, if I was the teacher, they would have listened, so I could see that was the sort of trigger from this book on logic that I found fascinating. Plus, that that I needed in education. So when we came back to Auckland, I went to night school and at university entrance and then went to university, [00:15:00] had two more babies along the way, Um, but got involved the university creche and running that, and and that's where I met Sandra Coney, who suggested I might like to come to an Auckland women's liberation meeting, which I had. So I said to my husband that I needed some time in the library, but instead, of course, I rushed into the library and then rushed to the women's liberation meeting. Can you talk for just a minute about how was, um, lesbianism and homosexuality seen in the [00:15:30] sixties, and also the the the kind of push into kind of feminism and the women's movement in the seventies? Well, it was interesting. It wasn't until I I got involved with feminism that I found the word lesbian. It had never dawned on me. And what was I 33 or something and still hadn't come across the word lesbian. Um, I hadn't [00:16:00] read a, um I suppose I hadn't read very widely. I read mostly nonfiction books, often on geomorphology and geology and things. Um And then once I started university, I read university texts. I had given up reading novels because of the emotionality of it. And so I never read any novels. From the time I was about 17 until I started reading some gay and lesbian novels in about 1976 and up till then [00:16:30] I'd never read a completed novel. I read lots, but not novels. All non fiction, um, biographies and things like that were OK, so I didn't come across a lot of things and I looked around and I still had this vague idea that homosexuals were short. And so I didn't really meet anybody that I could see was homosexual. I don't know whether I, uh, I can't remember having [00:17:00] a conscious decision that that person must be gave because they were short, but I still had this concept in my head. One of the things that I did think when I was pregnant with the first baby, I did think that that was a cure and I and my homosexuality would vanish. Um, unfortunately, there was a really nice nurse was trying to get the baby on the breast because I was being I was seriously ill, and I was unconscious for four days, so I was not in a good space. I was in hospital for three weeks, so [00:17:30] I, um and I hadn't a clue what I was doing, and it took some time to try and get the the baby established on the breast. And this nurse came back after she was supposed to have finished just to help me because she had managed to be more successful than the others. And I thought that she was just absolutely stunning. And it was very obvious that the cure that I had put so much hope on wasn't going to work. Um, [00:18:00] And so in the time that I was having Children involved with kindergarten and so on, I fell in love with various housewives and would often do things for them. All I could do was look after their Children, Um, help them with things. But I was really physically strong. I had belonged to the athletic in hockey. So I used to put the shot so I could do physical things if their husband was away or something. I could do heavy physical things and help them. Um, they probably had no idea that I was totally [00:18:30] Deo with them. Um, so there were a series of women that I really, really fancied but didn't do anything about it. I really didn't know what to do. Um, in my alliances with young, younger girls, when I was younger, I'd got as far as stroking breast and were sunbathing on the down on the river on the rocks. But that was all. And while I was very, very sexual with myself, um, and I always been [00:19:00] a great exponent of masturbation for all sorts of ills. I never transferred that knowledge to being able to think about what, How I might pleasure another girl. So, yes, it's interesting how, when you look back, how naive you can be as a young person and how it can carry right through the twenties, I mean, I was I wouldn't say I would be the happiest housewife in town during the twenties, but I love Children. And because [00:19:30] I have great affection and care for Children. I mean, I did do lots of stuff with my kids and so on, uh, things and so on. So, um, and they've all turned out really successful in spite of the ups and downs of my life. So going to university opened so many doors, but I really didn't find any homosexuals that I could think about when in the sixties until 1969. And [00:20:00] I heard through the university. Um, I only just started there, but I heard that there was the inaugural meeting of homosexual law reform being in the town hall, and Frank Haig was chairing it. And Mark Rowley, I think, was the secretary. And he was a psychologist. I met later on and worked with, um and I went along to that. My husband was appalled. Um, and I think he found it really threatening. It must have been very threatening for him. And so [00:20:30] that was a tense week or so until he got over it. He sort of said, I shouldn't have gone when I was pregnant, but I'm not sure what the pregnancy had to do with going to a meeting. But um, So anyway, that trying we trundled along a bit more. And really, by the end I I I think I had That was my fourth child. And then I had another child again. Later. Um, so I was in fact, I sat in my university [00:21:00] exams getting to getting my own supervisor so I could breastfeed in the middle of my exams and so on, uh, my life was fairly chaotic. And then I got to my masters and the diploma of clinical psych and finally got an internship at Mount Eden Prison. And that meant I was earning some money. And I had thought maybe the next year I could leave the marriage. But in fact, as soon as I started earning money, it became impossible to stay. And [00:21:30] already I had met some lesbians, um, at Auckland Women's Liberation and had an argument over abortion with them because abortion was probably never an option for me psychologically. Um, but I could and I could understand young girls being pressured to have abortions when they might not actually really want them. But I also could see that, um, in instances of rape and so on, abortion [00:22:00] was essential So, uh, yeah, I I had. But it was interesting that I chose to argue with the first lesbian who was Sharon S, That I'd come across, Um, and I think it was just trying to make it all that energy and frustration. How can you be so out there probably was going on in my subconscious when I can't, you know, get my foot out the the marriage door, so to speak. And so, of course, once I started [00:22:30] working with people and as I say, working with sex offenders, a lot of sex offenders. Um, in my first case load and and violent offenders, um, I started to, um, gain more confidence in, um, my decisions. And then, of course, just getting money in my hand meant the possibility that I could support the Children and and leave. And so, within months, I think [00:23:00] two months of my first pay packet, um, we split up, and it was a dreadful time for my husband. I felt so guilty. He was absolutely miserable. The best thing was when he met someone about five months later, and he's married her and with her. But it's been a difficult time for him. And he was, you know, lots of aspects. I think of his personality that it didn't want to acknowledge came out. So it wasn't an easy time, [00:23:30] but it wasn't also easy for me. I suddenly had taken on the full responsibility of five Children paying the mortgage and then trying to sort that out, trying to get a legal agreement. Plus, this was my year of doing all the case studies for my internship. Plus, um, within five or six months, I got involved with a woman from work. That's her first relationship with a woman, too. Um, and that wasn't successful. Um, not surprising, because I was in such [00:24:00] a mess. I tried various antidepressants because I had some very bad dips in that year. Um, one. I lost my memory. Another one. I had floating autumn leaves in my peripheral vision, and another one, I had nightmares of great, big, wetter over my body. So I gave up those and decided Sherry was cheaper and better. So prop myself up Really? With alcohol during that year, probably, um, not necessarily getting drunk, but just [00:24:30] taking the edge off. And sometimes and I decided so I think it took the edge off, and I decided that two negatives make a positive. So if you're depressed and you're an a depressant, then you might get a positive. That was my theory. I don't think anybody else agrees with me, but however, I'm still here. So what Impact on yourself? Did working with violent offenders and sexual offenders have on you? [00:25:00] I had, uh, an idealistic idea that wouldn't quite say that. I thought I was could save women from being raped and attacked. But there was that element. And I thought about it when I recalled what had happened to me as a child, and I had screamed to try and protect my mother. And so it was the same old same hold I was doing. Um, [00:25:30] also, I had the option of working in a mental hospital or the prison and the mental hospital was too difficult. I knew bad because my my brother, but I wasn't sure that I knew mad. Um, and maybe that was too close to to, um, one's own subconscious. If you do a lot of reflection, which I spent a lot of time as a child sitting on a rock in a bush reflecting on things so but I understood that particularly [00:26:00] theft and burglary and and, um, and assaults and so on. So that was my choice. And yes, and that was where I came across, of course, Women. I also did half a day at the women's prison, and that's where I met lesbians who worked as ship girls. Um, and that just blew me away. And all of them had a background of incest. And so on the one hand, I was seeing them and hearing their stories. And on the other hand, I was seeing sex offenders who were [00:26:30] had raped their Children. And so it seemed to me that we could empty our prisons and mental hospitals if we got rid of child abuse. Not all the offenders had a background of sexual abuse, but they certainly had been badly beaten. A lot of repressive. Um uh uh, Christianity fundamental Christianity had been laid upon them. They were very, pretty screwed up people and particularly, um, of course, I tried to call up anyone who was homosexual in prison. [00:27:00] Um, I had by 76 made contact with art, and I used to walk past the out office to go to my office in Bulgan Lane in the Justice Department. So I would pick up magazines, out magazines and take them because the men I worked with, the one or two were in for drugs and so on. But those who had sexually offended on someone younger, um, had this repression. And I thought if they could up the age of their desires, [00:27:30] there was lots of clubs in that opening up. And although it was still illegal, it was much safer if you went to, you know, West Side sauna or something. So that was my aim there. So I sort of used these connections to make my sort of therapy somewhat different, probably from the behavioural cognitive behavioural model that we've been taught. Were there many self identifying homosexuals in prison at that time? [00:28:00] Uh, no. They were very repressed. Um, but they would identify when I called them up. But the thing was, the prison knew they were homosexual. I mean, you've got some. You did have some fairly astute ex navy ex army people working in the prison Who, um, would and it was often in their probation file, too. Because often there were other misdemeanours that were relating to loitering and so on in certain, um, toilets [00:28:30] and so on. So I didn't I don't think in all the time that time in the seventies, I don't think I worked with anyone who was up on what would be just a normal relationship or sexual charge. Um, for being homosexual, it was always under age. But that might have been because I had a particular interest there or else it was, um, related to drugs and so on. Um, I can't think of any that was, you know, two guys in love [00:29:00] that that had been caught in public, that I didn't come across. Any cases of that. I know it happens. Um, and it did happen at that time, I'm sure. But I didn't come across any in my practise there so that naturally working with, um, uh, child molester or whatever you like, um, and the hearing the women's stories. I had been involved in a a rape research project, and then I had [00:29:30] done one for the halfway house, the domestic Violence Centre refuge on domestic violence. Uh, in fact, I cringe now. It was called the Battered wives questionnaire, but we published it in the women's weekly and got over 200 responses, and that was good to get some detail about the sort of offences. And so I did the same for the sexual abuse of Children. That was 1979. I'd won the award in 77 and gone over to Australia, [00:30:00] and that was quite a momentous year in 77. I also fell in love, probably for the first time in my life, and realised that one would walk over hot coals to get to the person of one's, uh, love and desire. Um, it totally blew me away. It was an impossible situation. She was not out, really. Although she was involved with the KG Club. But she was only 20 I was 35 with five Children. I mean, but I, I still, [00:30:30] you know, feel a glow. And I think of her and, uh, yes, and it it gave me an emotional response that I never knew was possible. And, uh, but the same time as I say in 77 I, I won the award. So another thing happened. I went to Australia where I thought big Australia. I would learn all about incest and sexual abuse, and they hadn't even got off the ground. They were even worse [00:31:00] than us in their recognition of why young people might be labelled delinquent and running away. Um, no one thought that the homes might not be very safe for the young person to stay at. Why would you want to sleep out on the street? That. And so I came back really determined to do something about the issue, which I then proceeded to do. I did the the questionnaire 318. I also added to that by going and talking with offenders when I [00:31:30] because I still thought it would be the bag. You know, the man with a bag of sweets sort of approach. And they said, No, no, you wouldn't use sweets or anything to entice a a young person. Um, yeah, that would be too far too risky. You'd get caught. The fact they were sitting in prison didn't seem to cross their mind as they were busy explaining to me when they used bribes. It was always when they established a sexual, um, they call it relationship. I'd call it an abuse, [00:32:00] Um, situation. They the child got a bit wise to it and started to back off. That's when they used the bribes to try and keep it going. They'd spent all this time coaching and schooling a child to get them where they wanted. And then So it was understanding the the sort of intricacies, I suppose, of people's behaviour, why they did the things they did to get what they want and how they then maintained it, which made it. Then I realised how hard it is for us to change our behaviour, and I'm [00:32:30] I lose my temper fairly easily. I have very low bar blood pressure. And so I shout and scream, and I used to try and do an alternative to shouting and screaming, and it's very hard. So if you're somebody who loses their temper and punches someone, it's in fact incredibly hard to change their behaviour. And so, um, I knew how hard it was for people to change, and so I tried to set up programmes where they could avoid situations that would make [00:33:00] it risky. So, you know, don't ever stop your car at a park or a school. If you're prone to be looking for underage kids. Sort of stuff. Um, so I had lots of, um yeah, interesting and sort of novel ways. I got one guy who always master he was an exhibitionist. He masturbated, um he liked sunny days and liked to take all his clothes off. Um, so I got his wife to buy him a cut wedding ring so it would flash in the sunlight and remind him of his wife. And that tended to be, you know, [00:33:30] his erection would sort of disappear with, um, that reminder also a photograph of the family in the car where he turned the key off. But of course, he reoffended because he lost the photo, came unstuck or something, and he lost his wedding ring. And, yeah, so he sort of sabotaged the things, the props that we'd put in to try and make it work. So, uh, yeah, I decided it was very difficult to change change people's behaviour, but it helped if they had a lot of knowledge [00:34:00] about it. So I still was on this pushing information out. Um, in 1981 I wrote the sexual abuse of Children and that was published and the Mental Health Foundation toured me around New Zealand and I spoke out about. So I had public meetings plus workshops for social workers, and it was a very intense time. Um, my mother also died in 1981 and I collapsed and had a [00:34:30] mild stroke. Um, it all got a bit much. 82. I limped through management by objectives that the Justice Department was doing and then left in 83 and worked a broadsheet for a year. And then I had managed to pay off. In a few short years. I had three mortgages, and I managed to pay them off. So I managed to, um, work part time, then for the Justice Department in 84 and enrol for a PhD. And my PhD was on [00:35:00] Children's understanding of sexual orientation, almost certain to not to guarantee your work anywhere. Mixing Children and homosexuality seemed to be, uh, quite difficult to do. Um, but I really like what I did. And I was hoping that, um, Rob Tillmans and, uh, the university of was going to try and copy my research there, but they couldn't get any parents to agree to let them talk to their Children. So because it was actually asking Children, you know, do you know what a gay man [00:35:30] is and how how would you know he's gay? And those sorts of questions? Um, and it was quite difficult in New Zealand getting a group. I had a group of lesbian mothers, so that was a sort of subgroup. And then it was during homosexual law. Reform, in fact, helped me because there was a group set themselves up called Hug, and one of them heard I was having trouble getting subjects, and he knew the the minister at the local Anglican church. And so he he talked to me [00:36:00] and he said, I'll ask my congregation there. Most of my congregation are members of Hug. And so he asked them, and they were all very happy. And I met all these wonderful people who were very supportive of, um, my doing this research because I thought if we were going to stop homophobia, then we need to know what Children know and how they learn. Do they learn about homosexuality as I the theorise that they learned it just as they learned about other family relations about [00:36:30] what cousins and grandfathers and so on roles. They learned about bride and groom then that the extension of that is that maybe you could have two grooms or, you know, or could you that sort of idea. So that was my thrust for all that. Six years of hard luck. What? What were the findings of that research? Well, I found that, um, I was I was able to go into the schools, [00:37:00] and that was interesting that, um, at intermediate age, a third of the Children just looked blank when I I wasn't allowed to use the words gay, lesbian and homosexual. So I had to show them pictures and ask whether if two men were living together. Do we have a name for them? That sort of. So I did solo mother solo, father, gay men and lesbians. But and I'd also done check that they knew bride and groom and, uh, wife and husband, those sort of terms. So I talked a bit about [00:37:30] weddings, so that sort of set the scene and I showed them pictures with these cue cards. And so and it was interesting. The younger ones all laughed. And I said if if two men are together as one a husband and one a wife. And they all found that very funny, but not in Congress, where the older ones were horrified at the idea. Um, but when you got to intermediate age and they were about 11 years old, those a third of them knew and would say, gay, Uh, a third [00:38:00] would look totally embarrassed. Go red look at the floor and didn't come up with anything. And so they obviously knew it was a discriminated category was my reading of their body language and the other third were blank. Just pass them by now. I think the age is probably much younger these days. Um, but it did fit in with the other knowledge of social relations. And I had a I also had a discrimination task where they could post letters in the box. This family makes me angry, [00:38:30] and this family makes me sad. And this family I love you a lot and this family's kind. And so I had all these, um, things, and I must admit the two men together got the angry and a lot of the bad ones. The solo mum got all the fussy ones. And sometimes the two women together, they decided it would be really fussy. Two mothers, one mother was bad enough. And two mothers. Um, so that was interesting in itself. And then when [00:39:00] I got the subgroups of Children away from the schools where I could use the words gay and lesbian, um, then the same sorts of things. The Children from the lesbian mothers tend to be quite political. And they How can you tell if a man was I would be wearing a big triangle. Or, you know, he'd have long fingernails or something like that. He he, um he, you know, he he'd flap around and they had all these funny sort of ideas. And but the Children from the stra who had straight family came from [00:39:30] the straight couples were much more, um, probably more representative of our community. And and they, too, came up with the idea that he would be effeminate, Um, and that, um, he might have longer hair or something to do, and and a number of them spoke about here because that they obviously had probably had some contact with gay men because their family were in hug. Who probably [00:40:00] came on demonstrations and so on. Uh, else they had family friends who were gay because one or two Children were quite astute and said he'd have a softer voice. And I thought that was quite astute, because that's the one thing I remember about my father being this great, big, burly farmer having this soft voice because he'd lived with a man for 13 years before he married my mother. So I found that sort of interesting. Um, so I finished that work. And [00:40:30] 1989. Really, um, graduated in 1990. I joined, um, child, youth and family just after the prison. I had resigned in 87 so I had a couple of year off when I didn't work. Try and finish my PhD. And then I, um because I've been involved in the International Lesbian and Gay Association from Homosexual Law Reform and because of that time, it was a very busy time, not of activism. Of course, the PD [00:41:00] got left a bit, Um uh, because I was busy doing all these other things, Um, writing lots of letters and so on with Jean Claude la. Who was the other? The male, Um secretary general with that organisation just backtracking a wee bit. How how did the law reform in New Zealand impact on the international organisation? Well, the international organisation really pushed, um, at New Zealand government and other governments, um, who were dragging [00:41:30] the chain on law reform for homosexuals. And so they were absolutely delighted, of course, because they chalk that up as one of their successes. They wrote letters and they got a success. Um, that, of course, everyone who wrote letters or think it's they're doing, Um and that's what you need. Everyone thinking that their efforts made a difference because that's how you do make a difference. And yes, so it was, um it was a great time when the news came through. I was at a meeting [00:42:00] at the Copenhagen town Hall and a Radio New Zealand. Um, reporter told me that it had just been passed and suggested that I announce it to the to the crowd. So, um, I looked around and so climbed on a chair and and told everyone and and, um, all the dignitaries from Denmark of Copenhagen were there and and everyone got right and behind it and thought it was great. And, you know, the glasses were raised and so on. And and [00:42:30] I think he got quite a good interview that would have come back to New Zealand. Um, at some point. So, um, but because of that, of course, they invited me to be secretary general, and I didn't realise how much time it would take. And also, it would involve me going to Europe every year, and and I And there was no funding, so I needed to pay for that myself. And I was there working part time on a PhD that I got [00:43:00] one scholarship of 2, 2000. No, $1000 is all I got to do that PhD over those six years. So I always had to work part time. And in those days, the regulations only allowed you to work six hours a week. I cheated and worked eight hours, and then I did another four at Odyssey House, but, uh, that I didn't tell them about, um but it was, um yeah, it was a bit difficult to, uh I was fortunate [00:43:30] that I had paid off my house. My older Children had gone. One was in medical school and he'd gone off to be a locum and so on. So they were moving out, and I was able to, um I have a flatmate that sort of helped pay the bills. So we we got by and I managed to say, Still save enough money to travel, um, by sleeping on floors. I think once I slept in the archives at and, um, the the lesbian archives, um, sleep all [00:44:00] the books and things and so, yes, sleeping on trains that sort of travel very much. The young backpacker type travel. So during the law reform period, did you were you active in terms of putting submissions into Parliament? Yes. I actually wrote a wrote a submission. And I wrote a submission because I felt that there was a lot of information that I knew as a clinical psychologist from my work. Um, because people would [00:44:30] sidle up to me when they knew I was a psychologist and want to talk to me about things at lesbian clubs after a few drinks, and I would try and arrange for them to see me at some other time. They could come into the office and talk to me about what the problems were. And so in a very short time, I learned a lot about what had happened to some lesbians, particularly the ones often who had severe alcohol problems. Um, they some had been raped by family members to make them straight similar to what's called now rape correction. That's done in [00:45:00] Africa to lesbians. Um, so because of the this information not being out there and being talked about, I put it in my submissions. And in fact, Rob Muldoon was very interested in my submission because I think he might have heard one or two stories because his niece was, uh I think it was his niece was a lesbian. Um, I met her at the KG the illegal KG club a few times. Um and, [00:45:30] uh, and I'd also put about, um, various, um people being, um, like Frank, Sarge and writers. And so on being homosexual or and lesbian Catherine Mansfield, Um, and how that information was denied us so that we we had no mentors. And what was the name of the minister of education in Wellington? I think, isn't it? He was on about saying, um [00:46:00] oh, that's right. I had mentioned that the poet from the United States, um, that his poems of love were to men, not women whose name just completely escapes me. Anyway, it doesn't matter. Uh, Wellington anyway said that he'd studied him at university. And what did I know? My my degree was in psychology, not English. Um, and Muldoon just jabbed him in the ribs and said, you know, even your teacher doesn't know Merv Move. Wellington. That was his main news. So, um, there were some [00:46:30] highlights. I suppose that was funny, but, um, most of the content of my submissions were pretty grim reading. Um, and I Yeah, and and again, my emphasis was that we needed mentors. We needed people out there that we knew about and hiding away in the closet wasn't the way to do it. Um, in fact, it was a disaster, as far as I could see. And you were also on the founding or part of the founding board for the AIDS Foundation [00:47:00] in New Zealand. That's right. And and I think feminists found that a bit difficult. I mean, they had always seen me as sort of not conforming to the general political correctness in terms of lesbian feminism. Um, I had got more involved with broadsheet when the lesbians split from broadsheet because I thought Walking away is not going to have many more articles published on lesbianism. Let's get involved and write them. And so and I did write a whole pile of articles for broadsheet. [00:47:30] I'm not a great writer. Um, I'm not great at English, but Sandra Coney is a great tutor, and she went over my articles, correcting them. She went over the sexual abuse of Children and and amber and mothers and edited those for me and and told me how to say things. But once I got on a roll and knew what I wanted to say, it was easier. But writing articles for a magazine is a is a certain type of style. And so, um, she helped me a lot with that. And so, [00:48:00] um, joining the AIDS Foundation, I think people found that a bit odd. And I said, Well, if aids gets into the offending community, we will have a crisis of Children with AIDS, and no one had thought of that. And that was probably one of the things that was really on My mind, Um, because I could not see how HIV would stay just in a homosexual population, because there [00:48:30] was always a crossover, um, and and that there are men who remain married who, um, just, um, pick up ca casual sex and and toilets and saunas and so on. So I knew there were, if that was going to spread into the heterosexual community, it was also going to spread into the offending community. Who, um, some who dabble in all sorts of things. Some are [00:49:00] very entrenched in paedophilia and are not going to venture out into the adult world. But others cross over considerably, and I could see that that was going to be a It could be a major problem. And I think my worst fears have not been realised. And I've been very happy about that. Um, and of course, in the early days, we got lots and lots of misinformation, and again, it emphasised to me how important it is to have the correct information. And also, when there [00:49:30] is a mistake to update it quite quickly, um, I found, uh, a lot of that. That quite frustrating. Um, trying to, um like we had the AIDS support network I was involved in before we actually got the AIDS Foundation up and running and worked with Bruce Burnett. And he was a marvellous guy. In fact, of all the information that he brought back so generously and gave us from the experience of the United States and and I had been to the United States several times [00:50:00] to, um and had a EF. The idea of how the the big change in New York for me was to go there one year, and it was just, you know, the bookshops and the and nightclubs and a fantastic time. And then the next time is the Pink triangle and silence, death and some of the big venues. Gay venues were now hostels for men. With HIV, there were lemonade stalls trying to raise money. There [00:50:30] were so many men in wheelchairs, it was shocking to me and, you know, so you sort of came back to New Zealand and thought, you know, we've got to get on top of this. What year was that? Um, the change was between 1982 and 1984 when I went back, um, and 1986 by then it was very bad. Um, and you'd go to a bookshop and you'd hear the book owner saying, Oh, the funerals at such and such a time. [00:51:00] And just so often, um, I'm still friendly with Ed. Um, handsome. I can't remember his name. I just No, Hermans, Um, he runs Giovanni's room in Philadelphia, and he's always sold my books. And, um, his co owner years ago, um, I stayed with when I was in. That must have been 19, 84 maybe. And, uh and I do. I kept in contact, and [00:51:30] I've been in contact with him all these years, and we still write to each other and and, um, yeah, the the sort of he sort of feels like his range of friends that he's known all this time is so, so small that their community was hit so much with, um, the HIV virus that he has very few friends of his own age who were out and about at that time. So it [00:52:00] just really decimated many of their organisations. And, um, I think it was a very difficult time for the gay community in the United States, and we were lucky that we had that. And we're not lucky that about the whole virus thing, but lucky that we had that information early and could get in and and make some changes. And so that that was really good. But it also made me very conscious of lesbian health. Because when I went to Norway, [00:52:30] um, that was about 1987. I had foolishly thought I could have a relationship with someone who lived in Tromso, which is a three hour flight from Oslo. And I went by train and it took me 2. 5 days. Um, because by the time I got there, she had a brand new girlfriend, but that was all right. Um, it's impossible in any way to Leo's Here. Give me a break. It's not gonna work. Um, so, uh, in to So they had, um They were handing out leaflets [00:53:00] and so on on, uh, HIV at that time. And they had been given a pink bus by the Norwegian government because there was so much money being poured into the gay male community for because of the HIV virus. Then the government said, Well, we have to do the same for the women what we can we supply for the women. So they gave them a pink bus with lots of health information, and it toured the whole of Norway, taking information to women about breast cancer and breast checkups and cervical cancer and [00:53:30] so on. Um, and it's a real pity that we didn't have that back here because so many are at the Lesbian Museum. We have a remembrance poll, and so many of the women on our remembrance poll died of breast cancer. So, you know, and I guess because of the numbers that pushed me into, um, doing research on lesbian health [00:54:00] because I could see that we're more likely to have fatalities if you delay going to the doctor. And there was some suggestion that lesbians delay going to the doctor from research done in the United States. So, um, I did this survey of 795 women responded, and sure enough, it was, um, a bad result, really for lesbians because they do delay going to the doctor for many quite complex reasons, it seems, but we haven't managed to do any research. Admittedly, [00:54:30] we got no funding for that. I've never had any research funded except through an organisation. Like when I did underage prostitution that was funded. And I actually got paid to do the lesbian health. I went on the dole and got paid 100 and $47 a week to do it. No, it's just the I I'm too busy doing the work. I mean, it was a long, hard slog, so I just got in Ross to do the work. Um, I think what made me sad was I really wanted to call the report [00:55:00] Butcher the butch because they delay going to the doctor worse than straight men. Um, but because my co author was at university at the medical school, she wanted a more, um, academic title for the report. We did get a little bit of funding in the end, not for the actual research, but to publish the report. So we could, um, photocopy it and bind it because 100 and $47 a week isn't gonna cover those costs. [00:55:30] The only way I've survived is I sell my house and buy a cheaper one. I might end up in a a garage in narrow is my expression. It could be, I suppose where I came from, but or near there. So, um, I, I did that. And then, of course, I've got involved more with, um, setting up the lesbian museum. And that came out of not finding anything that was, um, available because again, [00:56:00] I think no one should have the misery that I suffered from lack of information. Um, because it's there. It's available, but nobody put has put it together. And so I really wanted to, um, have some mentors for young people there. There should be our history should be available for young people. So it's OK. We still our latest statistics are still showing [00:56:30] a high number of gay men and lesbians are still attempting or thinking about suicide and getting depressed and sometimes committing suicide. So we, um, we still have a problem, and I think that problem can be helped if there is more out people, not only the celebrities who, of course, all the gossip goes about, but just ordinary folk. If we could all be [00:57:00] more open, then there's a good example, and it's the same as it was really the same. If we could all talk about sexual abuse. I thought it would stop. That was a bit naive of me. Um, And while we do have much better systems now than when I was a child, um, I was abused three times, but, uh, by three. Well, three different offenders more than three times, but, um, but there was nothing then I wouldn't have told a soul, given the other things that were going [00:57:30] on for me. Um, I wasn't about to tell anything. Um, and so there are much better systems now, but we're still not really getting to the crux of enabling young people to get through adolescence in a better way without them feeling that the world's against them. We have very few role models that we could grasp if I had known one. If I had clicked that I knew that [00:58:00] teachers at our school lived together. But I didn't transfer that across that they were homosexual. I couldn't. Well, they weren't short. One was short, but she was with a tall girl, a tall woman. We used to call them bucket and spade, but it just didn't. And so it's again. It's this information that if we give information So if we tell lesbians that there's a tendency for you to delay going to the doctor. Will they improve? I'm not sure. [00:58:30] Um that was a, um, over 12 years ago that we did that research and it hasn't The lavender Islands followed up a bit, but the questions were a little bit different. Different, and I'd like to see that research being done again, but I think I might be a bit too old and tired to do it myself. Um, and hopefully it will get funded next time and have therefore more respectability because it seems like things that get funded have respectability. But, um, I guess I'm used to being [00:59:00] outside of right when I spoke out about the sexual abuse of Children during the eighties and about lesbian mothers, and I used to try and keep those two issues quite separate. So when I published Amazon Mothers, the Book on Lesbian Mothers and I used the mechanism that I had used for sexual abuse books of poking them into the sex into the family court, I knew some of the family court counsellors through my work with sexual abuse, So I gave [00:59:30] them a copy of Amazon mothers and they thought these would be great for the family court judges. So I gave them copies. I often didn't sell books I gave them. We gave away the sex abuse of Children, 500 of them to social workers around the country. Um, we gave away Amazon mothers to the courts, and suddenly the judges realised well, he was a bunch of lesbians rearing Children. The world hadn't ended. They didn't know any lesbians. Well, very few of those judges knew women [01:00:00] who loved women and had Children. So all they knew the only lesbians they knew were coming through the criminal court, you know, for pinching a car or assault or something. So their range suddenly opened up and they could understand. So So I guess I'd had quite a bit of success, and they'd stopped doing the nasty custody cases that they'd been doing out of ignorance before that. So I had some success in terms of, uh, [01:00:30] giving information, putting it in a book, making it available to the right people and getting some success. But of course, I did get a lot of flack from journalists about the one and four I had used. Kinsey's figures that suggested that one in four girls will be sexually abused before she turned 16. And for a long time I that was the only research I had. And then rape Crisis did a bit of a survey in a school, and they came up with one in three. I thought that was a bit alarming and stuck to the one in four. [01:01:00] And then the Otago research came up with one in 31 in 41 in five, depending on how you define sexual abuse. Um, if you defined it very broadly and included exhibitionism, then it was one in three. If you included just a genital penetration, then it's one in five. But other molestation in terms of physical touching would be one in four. So we're back to the one in four after all those years of being lambasted and so on, and still people try and knock that I think less so [01:01:30] in the last maybe five years. But I know when I was on the Children's agenda, we still had problems with people, um, having a go at that statistic, it's like shooting the messenger instead of dealing with the problem. Um, which is a common, I think reaction. And sometimes one needs to understand. Why do we react in such a strong way to something? Um, understanding that then makes us realise that we can sometimes be blind to what's affecting [01:02:00] ourselves. And if we deal with that, then we're open to a lot more things in the in the our day to day life and, uh, and to other people and can often assist other people. So, um, I suppose over the years, I have chosen to talk out about subjects. Um, you know, I've even run ma masturbation workshops, of all things, um, in the heyday of the eighties, um, [01:02:30] and talked about sex and the usefulness of sex not only as an expression of love between two people, but sometimes for health reasons and all sorts of other reasons that it's part of our whole physical makeup. Um and yeah. So it's been an interesting journey, and a lot of what I've done has actually had a political base, but not probably an obvious [01:03:00] political base to other people. It's like my art doesn't always appear to be political until you think about subject matter, and and then mostly It's about our lack of ancestors and lack of knowledge, because certainly for women's history has not been handed down. It's very piece meal. Um, unless you gave birth to a prince or a king, you're not really mentioned. And certainly, if you're in love with [01:03:30] a woman, it's very hard to track that history down. As we're finding, you know, go on the Internet looking up spinsters. You know, it's it is difficult to get information it's hidden away and people's attics and cupboards and things or else burnt. Can you talk for a moment on? I'm I'm really interested with the Charlotte Museum and and also some of your earlier work How, uh, the difference between personal energy and collective energy, for instance, with the Charlotte Museum. [01:04:00] Um, if you weren't there and establishing it, do you think it would exist? Survive. Continue on. No, I think that, um uh, because I have been so stubborn. Um, to start with, we had a display in a in another building. And then I got a venue. That was the trust felt a bit expensive, but it was a nice place, [01:04:30] and we thought if we were going to see something else. It needed to look good because, you know, you could imagine, you know, four stained old t-shirts on a display stand is not going to look very good unless you have it in a nice surrounding, like an art gallery and art because, uh, an art exhibit I have, um you know, white walls and so on. So our idea. And so that's what we did for two years. But it was crippling $2000 a month. We paid in rent. And [01:05:00] so I mean, I've spent some of my own money and paying that rent towards the end. Um, it was very difficult to raise. And so we closed it down, left, and within and over Christmas, nothing happens. Anyway. Everyone goes to the beach. So then we reopen in the space we've got now, which is still $1000 a month we have to raise, but it's more possible. And we have raised that this year. But we really want a permanent home [01:05:30] because the work we've done, we've done so much in this time. We've managed to put out a general book which I put together sort of cobbled together bits and pieces about lesbian music, lesbian, art, lesbian. So we had this mixture and a friend wrote an essay. A couple of friends wrote essays for it, and another friend laid it out and so on. There were all these collective of people who contributed and that we've since done a little book on Early [01:06:00] Lesbian Theatre, and then we've done. And currently we're laying out one on early lesbian music. And we've made a film with Andrew Whiteside on that, um, that was funded by lotteries. And we've got, um, a one on sport that was funded by Polo Trust. Um, so we've got a book plus a banner we've done on lesbian sport. I mean, we didn't have too many, very many hours paid research for that. So it's just a taste, really, of what we could do if we had more funding. [01:06:30] And we've got a researcher at the moment working on early in Auckland, and we've got another one on early lesbian networks in Auckland and another one working on work in Auckland. So it's all these struggle, so this if we can get the funding, then there's people are interested in doing the research. But at the same time, we're still trying to set up the museum so that it complies with museum standards set by Papa. And while we've done most of [01:07:00] it to a reasonable standard, we've now finally got funding for someone to go through and work with all of us to make to see where we could do better. So, um and we we're quite pleased when we've got those completed, Hopefully at the end of this year, um, 2011 and can send our, um, copy off to Papa and we will be a real museum. Then I think Do you think something like the Charlotte Museum should be part of te papa or a national kind [01:07:30] of museum? Or should it be a separate entity that looks after its own kind of niche area? I think it has to be a separate entity to look after, because when we think about what happened at Auckland Museum when all the specialists became generic, if they can do that just with one decree, then you could It would be very difficult for someone to understand how lesbian music made community unless you were there or you [01:08:00] have a a solid understanding of how lesbians work as a group, Um, and it is different. They, um they Yeah, the whole collective doesn't get PM T at once, but it is a factor, so you have to work with what what you have. And collectives come and go, because the whole idea of having a collective process means it's long and laborious. And [01:08:30] volunteers come and go because they, um, they like more. Like me. I like things to be cut and dried, and I don't really want to spend three hours thrashing out something. I just want the A list made of what's practical and what's not practical. And let's go with what's most practical and what we can afford. Um, but I guess that's the way I've lived my life. And so I tend to like things like that. My Children always said I ran a matriarchal dictatorship, [01:09:00] but they didn't mind because I did the dishes every night because I like doing dishes that Children leave you alone when you do the dishes. So it was very rewarding. So some things I do are rewarding, but I do worry that if I drop dead today, um, about the museum continuing I have set up a small fund of money that is owed to me that would be paid to the museum instead to pay someone to do what I've been doing. But that [01:09:30] would maybe only last for a couple of years so that I have to start funding themselves. Um, and that's a worry. And that's why I really want to push this year to get a permanent space that's more affordable. That's in the community. I do think it needs to be a community based um museum, like many of our other little museums, that they can then maintain a specific focus and it doesn't get watered down or it doesn't get diverted into [01:10:00] something else. I think that it would have when I saw what happened to the gay and lesbian exhibition in the Brisbane Museum and how it started off very gay and lesbian and how it changed. The headings, the wordings and so on were changed by the museum staff, who did not understand why those particular words had more meaning because they do not understand the concepts behind the many of the aspects of gay and lesbian life. Can you think of an example [01:10:30] Um there was a long argument, I think, um, keeping sissy and poof, sissy and pus, for instance. Um and I can't think there was another article where they chat Example where they changed the words. But I know it's in my notes. I can't remember too old. So this project is called, um, making a difference. And it's all about making a positive difference within the community. And I'm just wondering [01:11:00] if you had any advice for somebody that's thinking, How do I make a difference? How Where do I start? I mean, what would your advice be? Well, the first thing is to, um you don't have to find a cause. Just find something you're interested in and, uh, get involved as a volunteer. There are heaps of organisations out there masses, in fact, of not for profit organisations who depend on volunteers. [01:11:30] Um, just and it's amazing what what you can come up with. Two university students from Otago worked with the EPA child alert in Auckland this year this Christmas holidays, and they walked from the south to the north outlining the problems of child prostitution. Now it wouldn't have happened 10 years ago. I don't think, But it's happening today because of the Internet and so on. Um but also, [01:12:00] what a great way to publicise, a difficult to talk about topic and to young people. What's more so it's not the old grey fogies who bander on about it for so long? Um, it's young people are sort of picking up the cuddle and going with it. And so there's lots of activities like that that where you can make a difference. You can get out and publicise things. You can talk about things you can also do a lot of hands on, you know, planting trees or whatever your interest is. [01:12:30] There's heaps that, um, that can be done and needs to be done by volunteers because we can't pay people to do everything that we would like done in our community, much as we would like to pay people. But that's one of the things with setting up the museum. People sort of said, Oh, well, I hope you're getting well paid for all the work you're doing And I said, I'm on the trust. I'm the secretary of the trust. No trust board member gets paid for anything. Um, and they found found that a difficult concept [01:13:00] that people would work so hard for many hours without getting, um, any reward, financial reward. But financial reward isn't what people like us seek. It's making a difference and seeing a change. That is the most rewarding thing I think that we can do, um, in our lives. It's feeling that we've come on to the Earth and made a difference while we were here for however long it was.

IRN: 297
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/stefanie_upchurch.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003906
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089200
TITLE: Stefanie Upchurch
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Stefanie Upchurch
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Out Proud; Stefanie Upchurch; Wellington; arts; bisexual; gay; images online; lesbian; media; photography; visual arts; youth
DATE: 10 December 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Stefanie Upchurch describes how the Out Proud portrait series came about and what it was like to photograph openly queer people.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um, my name is Stephanie, and, um, I'm from California, and I've been in New Zealand for 10 years, and I'm studying photography at Mass University. It's a four year bachelor honours degree. Um, I love documentary photography. I like to capture people. Um, and I love I love more candid shots. I'm not a you know, studio photography is great, and we've learned how to do that. But I love. I love being out and getting to know people and the inter interaction with them. And, um, yeah, that's that's what I really love. That's what I want to do when I finish what [00:00:30] is documentary photography To me, it's not necessarily with people with anything. It's just it's it's documenting it, how you see it. So it's from your perspective. So it's Photography is all about opinion, pretty much so. It's it's, I guess it's something different to everybody, but for me, it's, you know, it's it's the way I might Outlook on the world, I guess. Point of view. So, as part of the the messy photography course you were asked to do, uh, what kind of project? What? Um, you were given a commercial [00:01:00] based project So you yourself had approached a client, and it was kind of a hypothetical assignment and with no necessary outcome. Um, so I approached pride NZ, Um, and a few different, um, websites in the US, like the Trevor project I. I know I aimed a bit high, but they said a high. Um, see what happens. Never heard anything back about those. Um, And then I heard from New Zealand. Did you have any specific ideas about the kind of project when you were approaching these kind of nonprofits? The kind of project that you were interested in? [00:01:30] Were there any things that you really wanted to target? Um, for me, I because I have recently, you know, been more open with who I am, and so I just It's, you know, I've always been kind of not scared to to go kind of out of my comfort zone, But, um, I I really kind of wanted to get involved in the gay community and just, you know, try and try and do something. So that's that's what I've been kind of working on, and I'm next year. I'd love to do a major project on that, So this is kind of like a little project [00:02:00] leading into, hopefully a bigger, a bigger project. Were there any other kind of projects of the type that you've actually kind of ultimately done that inspired you in that direction? Um, I did a self portrait on myself this year for, um, our contact paper, which is our double semester paper. And I just, you know, the the self portrait went really well, and I was really happy with it, and it really it really helped me be comfortable and confident with who I am. And I just thought, you know, that it kind of sparked other things and made me want to try different [00:02:30] projects. So and and then that was a studio project with myself, and I kind of thought, Well, it'd be great to photograph people outside of the studio and see what kind of, um reaction I get from them looking at the camera. So why did the self portrait project kind of help you to kind of understand yourself? Um, the self portrait project helping me because I've never really been extremely confident person, um, or with my sexuality. So it you know, this year, stuff's kind of come together, and I've just been happier with who I am, and [00:03:00] through the project, it really you know, people said I started to change a little bit, and they started to see me be more, um, open. So it was It was a great project. Um, is that something you had expected Would happen? No, not not at all. Um, kind of just started the project, Then it ended up being a, um I ended up because I'm, you know, a little, um, modest and ended up being a nude self portrait. So it was, um, yeah, I didn't It didn't start off that. It was the development of the project. And it was kind of, you [00:03:30] know, showing who you are on the inside, kind of, um, you know, when I was in the studio, I ended up crying in the photos, and it was just it just the project just developed into that. You know, you don't expect when you start a photography project for it to especially me, end up like that. But, um, I was extremely happy with it, and so was my tutor. So yeah, it kind of sparked other things. And you know, It just made me Yeah. Happier, I guess. I know it sounds a little quirky, but but yeah, [00:04:00] the proposal that you then put to pride NZ What can you describe? What kind of proposal that was Sure. Um so basically, you kind of put a little bit, um, about myself in it and said I really wanted to do a project that made a difference. When I met with people, I basically said, Where would you like your photo taken? What best shows who you are. And, um, I talked to everybody for a good, you know, 20 minutes, half hour. I got to know them a little bit, and, um, it, you know, it felt like a comfortable situation. So and that's what I've been told. When people look at the work [00:04:30] that it's you feel comfortable looking at it, you don't feel this is an awkward, you know, kind of photo that, you know, it's a very natural feeling. And everybody was you know, who I approached was They said, Yeah, I'd love to do this. Um, I mean, at first, you had a lot of people interested and people, you know, backed out. But then I got more people and the the people that I got, I got 12. Um, the aim was to have 12 portraits, and, um, I wanted to achieve that. So I got 12 people, and, yeah, I'm really happy with it. Was there a difference between, [00:05:00] uh, putting the proposal out to the general public in terms of trying to get participants and the personal connections that you had was the personal connections was how I got I got most of the, um, the people for the photographs, um, putting, because there was a press release put out on a couple of different websites and that, you know, I got I got a couple of people emailing me, And then as I was ready to shoot, they kind of said, Oh, you know, I'm actually reconsidering this. I don't know if I want to do this, and I said, That's fine. You know, um, I didn't want [00:05:30] people to do to, you know, just to do it because they feel they had to, you know, I'd rather people be Yep. I'll do it. And was it hard getting, uh, a wide demographic of people I'm thinking in terms of like uh, genders sexualities, but also ages was I mean one, I guess. Was that something that you were going for, And two. Was it hard to get Age definitely was because everyone I met was between 18 to, like, 35 roughly, Um, and but I had [00:06:00] a it ended up working out. Kind of weird, exact amount of I had six females, six males. Um, but, um, I didn't know no one of non who is transgender or Yeah, nobody older. I thought an older generation might, you know, it would have. It would have worked really well to show that someone who's older is, you know, really happy with who they are. So But, you know, just it worked out that I got everybody at a younger age, but why do you think it was? Um I think people that knew people, it was, you know, and then some [00:06:30] of the people I originally had who, um, through email were older. And, um, I had a couple with kids and they decided that it wasn't It wasn't for them. So which is which is understandable, especially, You know, if you know you, you have to be careful. No, matter what your photograph. You have to be careful. So moving on to the photo shoots, how difficult was it to set those shoots up? Um, organising with 12 different people was a little difficult because everyone has different schedules, and I've got four classes to do. So it was kind of [00:07:00] I basically said, Well, I can do it whenever you're free. Um, because I wanted you know them to not think that there was a lot of pressure. So then, you know, people got back to me. It worked out fine. What about choosing locations and kind of styling the participants? Did you leave it up to them to suggest places, or were you more kind of directing? What? Um well, I met everybody in the city centre and I walked around with them for a bit, and I said, Well, where would you like your photo taken? A lot of people immediately saw someone and they said, Oh, how about over here? And then I kind of [00:07:30] made some suggestions of people who who weren't really, um, who didn't really know where they wanted their photo taken. But I mean, and I took a couple couple of different locations. So I shot a lot of each person. Did you make any suggestions in terms of the, uh, clothing or or or what they should wear? No, no, I said, you know, come as you are, that sounds kind of It's a Nirvana song. But I, you know, basically just be yourself, which is the point of the photos. I had a couple of people ask me, how should I dress up? And I said no. Be like how you would be on a day to day because I don't want it to be a staged [00:08:00] photo. You know, it just be like if you met someone in the street randomly and you decided to take their photo. I wanted it to be kind of like that, you know? Well, if because the whole point of the project you know, you don't want someone to, um, dress up what about the poses or the emotions that they convey in the images? Did you direct them as to what they should be doing? Or was it I had to tell a couple of people to smile because a couple of people were a little bit nervous? Um, but I just said. I just said, You know what? The 1st 10 photos [00:08:30] you take of somebody are never very good. Just because it's you, you could feel the kind of, you know, You just you have to wait a little bit, and then eventually people just become really relaxed. And I didn't have to say smile or do anything after that. It was just kind of, you know, as you were. I talked to them while I was taking their photo. As you start talking to someone, they just they relax a lot. What kind of things would you be saying to them to Kind of makes them make them relax. How? Um, just asking them about themselves. Um, some people were very open and, um, talked about coming out and [00:09:00] And how You know, uh, how their lives are now and or just people that were studying just talked about general stuff. Was it hard doing that with people that you'd never met before? No. I mean, I probably couldn't have done this project a couple of years ago, but I think you know, if you're more at ease about yourself, it's easier if you show that you're at ease about yourself. It's easier for someone else to open up with. You had many of the participants modelled before. Um, I think one or two had, um, but just for photography projects. [00:09:30] Um, like Massey photography projects, nothing. Um, nothing out of university. I guess so. No. No professional models or anything like that. Was it a challenge to work with people that that weren't necessarily used to having their photographs taken? No, I mean, I did. I did shoot a lot of a couple of people just to make sure I would get a good photo. But no, it wasn't really a problem. You know, when you say a lot, how how many photos would you be taking? About 50 of each person. But, um, but that's within [00:10:00] a good, you know, half hour just talking to someone, and you're talking to them. So you know that II I shot digitally. So if I shot on film, it would be a little bit different. Um, I chose digital because I just felt that it was People seem more relaxed when you have a digital camera. When it's film, it's a little more serious. And, um, you know, it's you also have to. Really? You have to watch what you shoot when you shoot with film, because it's, um it gets a little bit expensive, but I, I love digital photography. So that's why I chose it. [00:10:30] Can you talk to me about, um, shooting on location outside? Are there any things that you need to look out for in terms of the lighting or background or natural conditions? Um, I didn't really want a lot of people behind the photos, so I kind of went in areas where there weren't a lot of people in the background. Um, and lighting I usually shot on a sunny day, which was also could be a bit difficult because, um, the way the sun comes down on on the face, [00:11:00] you know, you've got to watch that. And then I did shoot it a couple times on rainy days. So to be careful with the flash, you know, that it wasn't it wasn't too much in somebody's face. Um, but I know it ended up, you know, ended up being OK. It would have been good to have an assistant. I did it all myself, but I think next time would be great to have an assistant, um, someone hold a reflector, maybe to get the lighting even on the face. And, you know, it was, um It was definitely really a good experience for me. I learned a lot, and, um, I learned what to do better next time. You were saying that you were taking about 50 [00:11:30] shots per person. How did you in the postproduction decide which shot was the right shot? Um, that didn't actually take that long. I kind of after I shot each person. I kind of did a little edit down. In the end, I kind of tried to pick photos that kind of went as a series. Um, how if a photo was cropped a certain way that I liked or, um, mostly it was what was, You know, going on in the person's face is what really kind of made me choose the photo. What [00:12:00] were you looking for in the face? Confidence, I guess every all the photos I chose of everybody, they look really comfortable, comfortable and confident with who they are, which is the point of the project of being out and proud. So and the thing I like about the project is because I asked a couple of people and someone in the computer lab sitting next to me looked at the project and they said, What is all the photos of these people? Was there supposed to be a similarity in them? As you know? And I said, Well, why don't you try and look and see and they couldn't figure it out? And I said, That's really good because it's everyday people, you know? [00:12:30] That's the whole point. Did you do much image manipulation in postproduction? Um, a little bit with the lighting and a couple of things like that. But nothing I don't I don't like editing people's faces. I like the more natural. Look, I didn't you know. That's if you're doing a fashion project that's a bit different. But for something like this, No, no editing other people. Why don't you like it? Isn't, uh it just it. I think it takes away from who? The person is it? I've It completely depends on your own project, though. Like I said, if you were doing a fashion [00:13:00] project, Yeah, then you do a bit of editing, um, skin tones and that kind of stuff, but this is a more natural look. So it's it's who people are on reflection. Looking back at the series, does it still speak to you in the same way, or have the images changed for you now, uh, it still speaks to me in the same way. I mean, next year I really want to do a major project and have I would love to have a lot of people do it and and look for age range. Um, and just Yeah, I. I would love to do a major project [00:13:30] on it and also kind of go into the studio and show the comparison of how someone is in the studio and how they are, um, to show people in and out of their comfort zone. So, after completing this project, have you gone on to do any other kind of queer related photography? Uh, no, not yet. Hoping to I we That was the last assignment of the year. Finished. And then I just went to New York for a couple of weeks. So I'm I'm back now, so hopefully, um, I'd love to do something like that. I did take photos at a march. Um a couple of months ago, and I really enjoyed that. That [00:14:00] was that's something I'd love to do. So And what kind of march was it? Um, it was, uh it was Oh, it was to legalise adoption, and, um, gay marriage. Um, so not just having a civil union basically being able to have the same same rights and equality as the straight people do being married. So what was that, like, taking photographs of, uh, a very fluid situation. Uh, it was It was great. It was You get kind of a little adrenaline rush from it because I was kind of amongst the crowd and taking photos of people [00:14:30] and, you know, photos of people that are really fighting for something that they believe in it really. It leaves you with a good feeling. And you just mentioned briefly that you were in New York. Yeah, I went to a mass. He did a, um, a New York trip in November, and I went for two weeks and then spent a week in California, So I had an amazing time. How was New York? Um, after being kind of more comfortable with your own identity, how How did you find that I felt really alive in New York? There's just something very freeing about it. And [00:15:00] you just I don't know if it's because there's nobody you know there or anything like that. But it's just there's something about that city. It just kind of makes you light up. It's It's an amazing city. Were you doing a lot of photography over there? Uh, yeah. I was there for about three weeks. The total trip, and I I took over 3000 photos, which is a bit extreme. My parents told me it was a bit, you know, a bit too much, but, um, a lot of it was, you know, I was in some photos and a lot of it was Street. I love street photography. And yeah, I probably took way too many photos. [00:15:30] But you know, how often are you going to go to New York? So it was It was a great opportunity. Is there a difference between taking street photography in a place where you might never have been and maybe never go to again, as opposed to, say, doing something in Wellington where you're there all the time? I shoot in Wellington a lot. I love to go off my camera. Um, take photos of of people and just the city itself. And you always You always find something new. But I guess New York was you just saw something and you just [00:16:00] took take. I took about 400 photos in one day, and I said, OK, you got stop. But you just you constantly see stuff, See stuff you've never seen before. Um, just Yeah, why do you make yourself stop? I mean, if it's digital, it's, you know, like you run out of space pretty quick, had a couple of memory cards. I mean, I did if I saw something I want to take a photo of, I just took it and we got lost from each other quite a few times, because with a bunch of photography students, everyone was just taking photos. You know, I'm imagining every student would [00:16:30] see it completely differently in terms of what they're photographing. Yeah. I mean, we didn't I haven't had a chance to look through everyone's photos, but someone else took a photo of something and you thought, Oh, I didn't think to take a photo of that. There's a lot of advertising in New York, So I took a lot of photos of of that kind of stuff and I went and saw rent, which was absolutely amazing. It was It's off Broadway now, but it's in a small theatre in a very intimate kind of setting, and it just it blew me away. I've never seen anything like that before. So, uh, from [00:17:00] Messy, third year to New York to messy fourth year. What's next for Steph? Hopefully something big. Hopefully, it's a great year. It's, uh, you know, it's my honours year, so it'll be be a lot of work. But, um, we have an exhibition. We'll have an exhibition at the end of next year. So I think in October. So your whole year is basically coming up with something to to show and hopefully you get people interested in your work and you get get outcome from it, and good outcome for you is what a job. Hopefully, hopefully something I'd love to go [00:17:30] overseas and and work. Um, you know, it's another another year from now, so just try to live in the moment.

IRN: 187
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/aids_memorial_quilt_michael_bancroft_2010.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003817
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089111
TITLE: Michael Bancroft - NZ AIDS Memorial Quilt
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Michael Bancroft
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Bruce Burnett; Bruce Burnett Clinic (Auckland); Daniel Fielding; HIV / AIDS; Michael Bancroft; NAMES Project; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; Peter Cuthbert; San Francisco; United States of America; Wellington
DATE: 1 June 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Michael, guardian of the NZ AIDS Memorial Quilt, talks about the history of the quilt in New Zealand.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So, Michael, um, we're standing in a room now with, uh, approximately 100 and 50 panels from the New Zealand AIDS Quilt Project. Could you tell me a wee bit about the history of the project the New Zealand AIDS court developed from the one that started in America in about, uh, 1985. Uh, and, uh, it started there because people wanted a way that was significant to [00:00:30] them of remembering initially the hundreds of men and women and some Children who were dieing from HIV and AIDS related causes. And it seemed to be the right thing at the right time. It just caught on that, uh, virtually in certainly in the United States, Uh, particularly in the areas of San Francisco and L A and New York. It really caught on. So virtually everyone who died families, lovers, friends were making panels [00:01:00] up for them. Then they started to bring them together, um, as, uh, blocks of, uh, panels about 12 ft by 12 ft. And then, uh, they started to use significant days like World AIDS Day, which had been established as first of December to display them and, uh, also a bit later on the, uh, AIDS candlelight memorials, which were generally held in May. They would also use them then, [00:01:30] and the whole idea was not only remembering, but it was also to try to use them as what I'll call an education prevention tool so that people, by seeing these quilts, would think of the people that they stood for. Think they acquired this infection through choices that they'd made in some cases through no choice, simply because, uh, they had got it through a, uh, an infection of, [00:02:00] uh, blood transfusion before they realised what was happening. And in parts of America, of course, a huge drug injecting population and people were using exchanging dirty needles basically, and people who didn't know they had the virus were then passing it on. So they were used for that purpose, uh, as part of education prevention. And then a New Zealander called Bruce Burnett [00:02:30] was over in the, uh, states around the mid eighties when all this was starting to catch on and, uh, he became IV positive himself. And when he returned to New Zealand, uh, he gave the idea that we needed assistance. We needed clinics, and that was how the Bruce Burnett Clinic, for example, started and, uh, initially, [00:03:00] uh, a group of people in Wellington, uh, got hold of the idea with some guidance from Bruce of creating a panel. And so, in actual fact, uh, in 1988 a panel was created in memory of a gentleman called Peter Cuthbert so we can actually trace the New Zealand section of the quilt. Uh, it was called in America. They called it initially the names project. [00:03:30] Uh and then it developed the idea of the AIDS quilt, but later on. And so it's always been known as the AIDS quilt in New Zealand, Uh, from 1988 and gradually, uh, the number of people dieing increased, the number of panels increased. And so in the late eighties early nineties in New Zealand to create a memorial panel started to become what I will call the norm [00:04:00] for remembering. And, uh And so that was how it started. Was Peter the first person in New Zealand to be diagnosed with HIV or AIDS? Uh, no, he wasn't. Um uh When I first became involved in the work of HIV and AIDS in 1988 there'd already been a few deaths, and all I can remember hearing was that the first person, um, who died was [00:04:30] someone who wasn't even known until he had actually died. That it was HIV that had taken him. So in the mid to late eighties, how was HIV and a I DS, uh, dealt with in the community. How did people perceive that? Pretty negatively initially, Because apart from the ignorance of the fact people just didn't even know what it was. And it was seen to be this new scourge. [00:05:00] Um, because it was hitting in America. Uh, they are generally the gay population, uh, or, as it became later known, men who have sex with men to widen the whole concept of it. Uh, and of course, many of the what I'll call fundamentalist, uh, groups and religious sects and some major denominations, and certainly in Christianity I wouldn't know about the others. Just perceive the whole [00:05:30] thing as a curse and a scourge from God for the immorality of homosexual behaviour. The fact that they fairly quickly discovered that it would appear to have commenced in Africa among the, um, heterosexual population. And even to this day, Um you know, if there I couldn't tell you the exact figure, but I know it's well over 40 million. Uh, probably 80 to 90% of those are in, um, Continental [00:06:00] Africa, uh, where it's rampant through the heterosexual population. It's not a gay disease, but that was how it was seen in those early years. And so in New Zealand, for example, um, one of the first things that started to happen was a lot of the men who were succumbing, um, had come from Christian backgrounds and whether or not they acknowledged their [00:06:30] Christianity and and say in terms of church going and things like that, when it became they became aware that they were dying, their families became aware. It really heightened spiritual aspect, spiritual sense, and a number of them started to ask for church support. And it was around that time, 1988 that I actually became formally involved. [00:07:00] When in Auckland they started what became known as the Interfaith AIDS Ministry Network, which was a group of church ministers who came together to say people are dying regardless of what they're dying from. They need the support of their pastors. They need the support of their church communities. Their families need that support. So we have to show that the face of the church is going to be there [00:07:30] for them. And as I say when When I started, I was at that time a Roman Catholic priest only recently ordained. I'd been a teacher prior to that. And, um, I was, if you like the Catholic representative, we had, um, a Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican. We had, in view of, uh, some of the, um, statements that were made around homosexual law reform. [00:08:00] Uh, we had a great contribution from a major in the Salvation Army because, um, he acknowledged I'm not saying officially on their behalf, but he certainly acknowledged that, uh, they'd made some errors in the way in which they spoke about things and he wanted on behalf of the Salvation Army community to say We're here to help. We had a Jewish rabbi, and at one stage, we had a Buddhist, wasn't a Buddhist monk, but it was very closely associated [00:08:30] with the Buddhist community. So it wasn't only a Christian group, it was an interfaith group. And even if, uh, we didn't have people say who were or Jewish or whatever dying at the time. It still meant that there were people available. There were people there for it. And so when people were dying, there were people being caught upon. And that's how I got called upon, basically one after the other after the other in the late eighties, early nineties. [00:09:00] At times, um, I would be involved with three or four dying people at the same time. And, um, it became difficult in the community generally, because what was happening was that, uh, we'd go from one funeral to the next. And, you know, you'd be at today's funeral and kind of looking around thinking who's will be next. And and at those times, of course, you had so many HIV positive men. Or as they more [00:09:30] often said, people, they use the term full blown AIDS in those days, um, which made it even more of a scourge. You were like a you know, something that was, uh, maggot infested. You were fully blown, which is a horrendous way of talking about it. But that's what happened. So, uh, we had that kind of situation where people just needed people, and, um, I gained a reputation for being someone who cared who came from a church. The Catholic [00:10:00] Church, which was pretty outspoken still in terms of its teachings, about not a homosexuals as such but homosexual activity. And, of course, very hard to, um, draw distinctions between the person and how they express their love and just saying no, no, that's all sinful, bad, all those sorts of things. So there were all those tensions, but, uh, overall, I found that, uh, I was, uh, hugely [00:10:30] accepted. And, um, I never really met a, um, an antagonistic and nasty person at all. I just cared for lots of great guys who were dying. Um and, um, help them through in many cases, was there at the time of their death and then conducted their funerals, supported the families. And today, up to 21 years later, In some cases, I still beat families in the street who remind [00:11:00] me of those days and, uh, yeah, so it was a positive thing that came out of negativity. The only negative thing I would say about the churches and wasn't surprising was that a lot of what were called the more fundamentalist churches would still deny that they had any members in their churches who were gay or sorry, homosexual. They wouldn't have referred to them as gay as such Generally. [00:11:30] Um, they certainly wouldn't have got AIDS because that was sinful. So, um, we do have we don't have any of those people, so they were never part of our interfaith network. So where did those people come to the ministers of the mainstream churches? Did you find that families denied either homosexuality or AIDS and HIV, for the most part? No, [00:12:00] uh, particularly the ones who were affected once, of course, their sons for the main, Uh, in some cases, there were husbands who became HIV positive, who were either known or not known to their partners as being a homosexually active. Um, and that was a big shock in some cases, uh, wives finding out they had husbands leading double lives. Um, parents finding out that they [00:12:30] had a gay son or lesbian daughter who didn't actually know. But as I've said before, because most of them were, uh, gay men. Uh, it was really men I was dealing with most of the time. Um, some parents were absolutely fantastic. Held their sons in their arms and cried and walked with them the whole journey. There were a few who didn't understand. Um, I never heard of anything really horrendous or [00:13:00] nasty. Um, I heard of the odd case where, you know, people said, Oh, no, we don't want anything to do with you But eventually they seemed to come around. Now, whether it was a social phenomenon or not, I have no idea. But the number of gay guys who were HIV infected who had a solo parent situation was quite interesting that, um there were a huge number of mothers and [00:13:30] sons and a lot whose fathers had been gone from their lives years before, rather than suddenly finding out they had a gay son who was HIV positive and taking off. No, that it just seemed to be like that. And that was, in itself, quite a curious thing. So a tremendous amount of the caring and support that went on in the gay community was from women mothers. Um, and they were in terms of the New Zealand AIDS quilt. [00:14:00] You know, you've only got to talk to the people who were there making the first quilt. You've only got to see photographs of them making them, and there were women everywhere. And, you know, if I had the time and, uh, all the names, I could say That's the mother of so and so that's the mother or the sister or the grandmother and that sort of thing. So do you think the the majority of, um, people that passed away had quilts made for them in the early [00:14:30] years? I wouldn't know if it was the majority, but certainly a high percentage. But when we think that we have in New Zealand about 100 and 40 of the panels, that's the individual memorials, Um, in total. And to the best of my knowledge, it's somewhere between 809 100 deaths in New Zealand. Uh, it's it's really only, um, [00:15:00] you know, a fraction of the people. And, uh, the reality is that the last panel that we received, I think, was created in the very early two thousands. Uh, so you know, it's, uh, seven or eight years since anyone's made a panel in New Zealand, not because we haven't continued to talk about it. It's just I think people have moved on. Uh, in the ways they remember, you know, And [00:15:30] nowadays, um, and this is why we're moving towards with our AIDS quilt. You know, as you've seen here, you know that they'd half fill a football field if we had every single one of them on display. Well, you just can't do that anymore. And for people who, uh, know, uh, the City of Auckland, for example, and know a square. Well, um, the AIDS quilt, completely spread out, fills the whole of a square. Uh, I think in one [00:16:00] occasion they were taken to parliament, and they fill the whole forecourt of parliament in Wellington, so it fills a fair space. So that's why we're actually now working towards the, uh, photographic record and the creation of a website which will keep the memory going which will keep the stories. And hopefully, um, we will be able to give people an opportunity to [00:16:30] create quilts. Um, in terms of the new technologies that we have that people can go online and gradually as a family or as an individual can gradually develop a quilt that can become part of the whole quilt project. So it's quite possible that we'll see a resurgence in the next couple of years. Once it all gets underway out of the 100 and 40 panels, How many of the guys did you know? Personally, [00:17:00] I would say probably about 60 to 70% of the ones on the panels we have. Um, and again, as I've said, that's basically through the huge amount of care that I was called upon to give, and I don't think it's a particularly good reflection. But at one stage, I was keeping a record, Uh, just of every single person that I met. Um and, um, it was something like 40% of all the [00:17:30] people I met, uh, were actually of some Catholic background. Now, they weren't coming to me as a priest at that time, Uh, simply because they were Catholic. It was just the fact that they needed support. And shall we say word got out that there was a priest involved in the community, so there might be a little bit of, um, skewing of the figures, from my point of view that there were so many Catholics simply because obviously, people [00:18:00] were directed in that way. But what, um, what has generally happened is that as with all things in this case, a sad but good reputation to get Was that, um I was able to care in ways that people felt were appropriate for them. So I got asked. Therefore, I can look at the panels of the quilts and say cared for him. Walk the journey with him, buried him, did his cremation service. Whatever the case may be in greater numbers than a lot [00:18:30] of others in New Zealand could. And when you think that, uh, you know, I well, I say there are about 100 and 40 panels. Um, I've actually helped care for and still care for some HIV aids related, uh, people who are still very much alive. Um, today and that's over 100 and 40 in itself, just me. And when again. There are a couple of 1000 HIV positive people in New Zealand. It's only [00:19:00] a fraction I'm not caring alone. There are others doing it, too. And families do. We can't forget that there are still families. There are still lovers, partners who who are caring and, uh, the the greatest challenge these days, apart from the sad one that more and more people are still getting infected and a lot of them so young, which doesn't kind of make sense. With all the education that we've tried to do, it just doesn't seem [00:19:30] to make sense. But people have to make their own choices, and they do. And so that's how it happens. But, you know, we've still got hundreds and hundreds of HIV positive people, but alongside that we've got new medications. And, uh, as I've mentioned to you when we've been talking about some of the panels that some of the people there, you know, not literally one week were told that they were HIV positive and dead the next. [00:20:00] But some it was a matter of two or three weeks or a few months or a couple of years, and they were gone. And I think there were two aspects to that one was that treatments were in their early stages, and also there was a kind of a what I'll call a psychological aspect to it, that because everyone was hearing about all these hundreds of deaths in America and to a certain extent in Australia, too [00:20:30] at that time that people thought there was no chance So instead of carrying on going to work every day and taking their pills, people would say, Oh, well, I've only got a couple of years to to live So I might as well enjoy myself. So they stopped working. They stopped doing. They almost became invalid without not denigrating the reality of their illness. But they almost gave up. Whereas now a lot of the people that I see and that I work with [00:21:00] have been taking pills for 20 years and you can meet them in the street and you wouldn't have the faintest idea they were HIV positive. Or they still go out and do a day's work because the medication lifestyle and all that. So we went through a whole generation, so to speak, of people who had to readjust. They sold their homes. There were there were men who were, um, selling their homes because they thought they'd be dead. So sell [00:21:30] your house, go and have a trip overseas. You know, prepare the funeral. And 15, 20 years later, they're still around. They had to, um, go and find a job again. They gave up work, expecting it would all be over in a short time nowadays, you could be working alongside someone living alongside someone who lives with HIV and A I DS every day. And unless they happen to get really sick, you would generally not even know [00:22:00] one thing that struck me looking at, um a lot of the panels was the guys. A lot of them seem to be, um, passing away in their thirties. Uh, this is going back to the kind of mid to late eighties. Uh, that would have been your generation. Thank you very much for for saying that would have been my generation, but in in the eighties, Um, you know? Yes, sure. Uh, it was, uh, the late thirties for me. Um and, [00:22:30] um, yes. I was seeing my peers dying and in some cases, caring for my peers dying, Um, walking the journey with a guy that I was in the same primary school class with secondary. We grew up together. We did everything together, so to speak, before he moved overseas, you know, and walking that journey, um, and then in later years, meeting up with people as a school teacher that I taught, you know, So even younger, [00:23:00] but no, that was one of the hardest things a lot of people found was, to put it bluntly, looking into the next coffin and seeing another young body. Um, and not everyone. Despite some of the horrendous pictures we saw, not everyone died looking like a skeleton. And of course, as time went on, too, and funeral directors became better educated and understood the whole disease because there was fear, [00:23:30] you know, even among funeral directors, that they couldn't dare treat a body or embalm a body or that anyone could see it after death in case they caught it. Then they started to be educated and realised that, Hey, it doesn't work like that. So we have there, I say the good fortune in the in the two thousands where a person can look as beautiful and death as they did in life. Um, sad though it is, you know, and, [00:24:00] uh, but to to look at one person after another in their thirties and think why very hard. And there were lots of couples around two guys you know who had formed a relationship. Um, I. I did several funerals Where, uh, guys in their early thirties had been together for nearly 10 years, uh, met each other almost in the night Clubs, Um, got on well together, flattered together, lived together And [00:24:30] then because, uh, many people had open relationships, one got the infection. Maybe never told the other that they'd been out and playing around, or both of them had been out and playing around, and all of a sudden they both just discover their HIV positive, and one didn't know whether to blame the other or someone else, you know? So there was that kind of thing happened, too, though again, amazingly, there weren't a huge number of relationships which [00:25:00] I found where people split up. You know, where one person became HIV positive and the other was still negative by some amazing gift of love, One to the other. People carried on together and cared for each other. And until death, are these, uh, panels still being shown in public? Not very often these days. And the the main reason is that [00:25:30] anything that's developed as the court panels are with, um, materials, uh, that are, you know, easily marked or perishable, and so on various linens and cottons, uh, that, as you've seen, there are some quite intricate things that have been put together, quite beautiful things put together. But in the very early days, people would put all sorts of things on these panels without thinking that one day [00:26:00] displaying them all around New Zealand and taking them to churches, um, schools, shopping centres, that opening and closing, moving them around, that they would get dirty and start to deteriorate. And then we started to to discover, and this was happening. You know, 15 years ago, probably when I was involved with a quilt quite early on was that, uh, we couldn't get them cleaned. We'd take them [00:26:30] to dry cleaners who'd say Sorry, Uh, if we were to clean that material, that one would perish or we can't do anything, we'd have to pull the whole thing apart and try to clean each little bit, so that's been a huge problem. That's been an international problem which has forced in most countries. It's happened in, um, America. It's happened here in New Zealand, happened in Australia, where they end up in some form of storage. Um, [00:27:00] and despite the fact that many countries and New Zealand is one where we look upon them as a national, a national treasure Getting someone to actually put them, Uh, for example, if you got a gallery or a museum that was willing to take them, they have their own rules and regulations about what they can do, how much of anything they can display. And we all know that, uh, you know, any museum [00:27:30] will tell you that, you know, maybe see, at any one time you are seeing 10% of its collection and they just keep rotating it. So that's another issue for us. If we put them in permanent storage in a museum or a gallery, people won't have the access to them. But now we can't give people the access either, simply because they are, in many cases, deteriorating. It's really the only times now that people get a look [00:28:00] at them will be, um, AIDS, candlelight memorial services, which are held in the third Sunday of May in New Zealand and World AIDS Day. Whatever day that falls on, um, where, uh, a panel or a block of them will be sent, you know, from Auckland to in or or wherever. When they are requested, we send them. But again, only a small number of people get to see them so that in actual fact is another [00:28:30] uh reason and gives us the impetus to work on this idea of a website because then once everything's recorded on a website, whether you live in Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch or in the middle of Africa and you think, Oh, I wonder if so and so ever had a quilt made in New Zealand, you can type in their name, and that will come if it's there. The quilt, the story that [00:29:00] lies behind it, the description of it, or if there isn't there will. Hopefully, there will be the possibility of creating virtual quilts in the future where friends and families could say, Oh well, we never had one made at the time. We were too sad or wasn't the right way for us. But now we could do it so that memorial will continue to to live, you know.

IRN: 188
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rod_mcleod_morrison.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003818
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089112
TITLE: Rod McLeod Morrison
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Rod McLeod Morrison
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; HIV / AIDS; Rod McLeod Morrison; Wellington; death; gay; health; relationships
DATE: 24 April 1999
YEAR: 1999
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Rod talks about his relationship with his partner who died from AIDS related conditions.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: He died of AIDS. Um, it'd I'd, uh We've been together for about 20 years. 20 odd years. And I'd moved away for a while, uh, and then came back, and I thought something wasn't right. And I'd guessed that he was positive for some time. And then finally he told me. And so for about the last three years, [00:00:30] you know, we sort of we were still very close, very together, Uh, then he had to go into hospital. He had, uh, Pneumocystis pneumonia or whatever it is, and he came out and he always sort of He said, I'm fine. I'm fine. He was always wanting to lead us, so, you know, look after himself. He didn't want to bother anybody. Towards the end, though. He was getting quite bad. Um, [00:01:00] he'd which we He woke up one Saturday morning and, um no. Sorry. On a Friday night, I arrived home and he says, Oh, I've cooked dinner. So he laid dinner out, and we started eating it, and he promptly brought it all up all over the table. Uh, and this has happened a couple of times. And so I said, Well, you know, I'll look after myself. You know, I don't want I don't like this. I don't want to put you through to anything. [00:01:30] And the next day he woke up and he was talking funny and he wanted to go out to, and he insisted on going out to. So we drove out there and I was so concerned that I said, Well, unless I drive back, I'm catching the train back. I won't drive with you. And so we I drove home and I said, I think you should go ring up the hospital and go to the hospital, but he wouldn't, so I rang. I rang [00:02:00] his doctor and the doctor came round, and the doctor said he's got to go into hospital, but he won't go. As the virus has hit the nervous centre of the brain, he's paralysed down the right side of his face and the left side of his body. Uh, that was on the Saturday on the Tuesday I went in to see him and had an argument with them up in the ward because they wouldn't let me in. Eventually I got him to see him and [00:02:30] he was getting better. I knew the doctor and The doctor took me to one side and said, Well, you know, we're getting them fixed up. He's probably got 8 to 10 months of quality life left, but we probably need somebody full time to look after him. So I said, That's all right. I accepted that and I sat with him, and then he asked me to get the doctor again and the doctor came in and he said he had pains in his chest. [00:03:00] So they examined him and discovered he had pleurisy. And they then said that they would be able to treat that and that he'd be able to go home by the weekend. On the Wednesday I went in to see him and he was much brighter. And what have you in the evening? He wasn't so hot and he said, Well, you go home and feed [00:03:30] the dogs and come back and sit with me I said, Well, I'll sit with you. The dogs can wait And then he said, Will you hold my hand until I go to sleep? So I sat there holding his hand, and about half past 10 at night, he says, I'm going to sleep now, go home I'll see you tomorrow. So I sat [00:04:00] with him until he went to sleep, and I went home quarter past 12. In the morning. I got a phone call to say that they doing a routine check, and I found him lying on the floor dead. Uh, and it just died. [00:04:30] What it's not is love. Well, Michael and I first met in, um 1970. Um, I was in the Air Force at the time. I was also married at the time, Um, where I came to Wellington. [00:05:00] And through going to, uh, gay pubs and clubs, I'd met a group of people and become friendly with them. And this couple had, uh, had said that they had another flatmate who was away overseas and had been away for about eight months during a world tour. And I've been to their place for a few times for dinner. And then they told me that Michael was that their flatmate, Michael was coming back from England and they were going [00:05:30] to have a welcome home dinner, and they invited me along to meet him. And so I went along in this night and met Michael, who was, uh, quite a tall guy with very sort of scraggly Einstein like hair out all over the place and a and a bit of a bet. Uh, a very much an extrovert and talked incessantly the whole night about his trip around Europe. [00:06:00] And as I knew, some of the places you've been to and what have you We sort of talked about the our own impressions of them, and we talked until quite early in the morning. And then I went home and I sort of thought about and I thought, Well, this isn't my ideal sort of a man. Uh uh, you know, sort of. I think my ideal sort of a man was a sort of a a very muscular metro looking man. Uh, builder, a bricklayer [00:06:30] or something. Um, sort of the ideal man that every woman every man wants to emulate and go go for. Uh, but I was quite intrigued with Michael, And so, uh, when he rang up a few days later and said But I like to meet for a cup of coffee. Uh, I suggest, and so if we went, uh, met about three o'clock in the afternoon and about four o'clock the following morning. Finally, we got home again, having spent a lot [00:07:00] of time talking and walking and drinking coffee and eating and then going to drinking some going to a pub. Uh, and I actually found it very easy to talk with. And we also discovered that we also had a lot of similar, uh, likes and dislikes in common. And so we sort of start a meeting once a week, twice a week. And so it escalated. And then eventually, um, one Saturday night, [00:07:30] we'd been out and we'd had a lot of fun, and he said, Why? Why bother going home? Why don't you stay here the night? And so I didn't have any problem with that at all. So we fell into bed together and and everything happens that happens in bed. And, um, I decided I rather like the guy. And I rather liked being there with him. I found, uh, great comfort being with him and [00:08:00] so started. I suppose, uh, what led into 20 years of happiness? He didn't want anybody to know he didn't want any of our friends to know he didn't want, uh, his, uh He didn't want to have anything to do with the AIDS Foundation? Because in the early days, there were several things that we've done, which [00:08:30] were pretty upsetting to some people. Uh, information leaked out, and everybody knew what was happening with everybody else. So basically, he just wanted to stay home and be looked after by me, which I was quite happy to do. He went in in and out of hospital a few times. Uh, he had a local doctor looking after him. Uh, there were good days. There were bad days, but [00:09:00] then towards the end of 1989 I think it was things were getting worse. His down periods were a lot more frequent. Uh, his periods in hospital were a lot more frequent. He was having to go weekly for, uh, inhaler treatment for pneumo cytosis. Um, he was losing a lot of weight. Um, he was having trouble keeping food down, and [00:09:30] they were sort of combating most of that. Um, so he'd sort of be right for a couple of months, and then he'd go back down again A during the day. He was a lot better than he was at night time. Night time. It seemed to hit him very hard, Uh, where he wouldn't be able to move, he wouldn't be able to walk properly. Uh, he'd be extremely weak. Um, [00:10:00] uncontrollable, uh, vomiting, diarrhoea. And so basically, I was sort of checking on him during the night and cleaning him up and looking after him. And then towards the end, when things got very bad, [00:10:30] we bounced off each other, probably for our own benefits and certainly for our own good. Um, we probably were a good reflection of each other, too. And that, um, his [00:11:00] outspokenness, his loudness, his always rushing about at 100 miles an hour and never stopping to think, probably reflected very good on my quietness. And my, uh, being able to, um, sort of take things a lot easier and to think about doing things before doing it where he just went ahead and did it, um, where I would sort of think and say Should I do it? Shouldn't I do [00:11:30] it? Will it be good will? Will it not be good? By the time I've finished arguing with myself, it's too late. He was probably wake up. He would wake up and you say, Let's go up to Levin today. We're leaving now. And so before I had time to think about the pros and cons of whether it was good or not, we'd be on our way. So I mean, we were a good reflection of each other. And probably in some respects, opposites, but also alike in a lot of ways, too. [00:12:00] Um, he was always He always involved himself in other people. He was probably one of the kindest and gentlest people I know who also had quite a temper on him. He was a miser. Uh, he would. When we were living in Kilburn, he would walk down to the supermarket, and then he'd come back and go through the tool tape and say they've overcharged me two cents and so walk [00:12:30] back down to claim his two cents back. Um, likewise, It was one of the most honest. So if they'd overpaid, if they'd given him too much change, he would walk back and give it back to them. Um, he was a reminder to the point of endangering himself at once when he had come home from his job and he said he had the stomachache and he wasn't feeling too good he'd been to the doctor, and the doctor wasn't certain what was wrong and [00:13:00] had said, Well, if it gets any worse over the weekend, go to the hospital. So he went to bed on the Friday night and Saturday morning at half past six in the morning, I woke up to him moving about and I said, What's wrong? He says, Oh, I'm in terrible pain. He real agony. I'm going to the hospital I said, Oh, I'll drive you over He said, No, no, no, no. You stay where you are. I'm all right. He says, I'll make my own way. And he was, could be very stubborn that way. So I said, OK, well, get a taxi He says, No, it's all right, I'll grab a bus. [00:13:30] So anyway, off he went. And then I got a phone call from the hospital to say he was in surgery. He had his appendix a burst, and uh that they were operating on him straight away. And when he came out of anaesthetic and everything I said, Well, why didn't you let me drive you or get a taxi? He said. Well, I walked up to the bus stop and there was no buses coming. So I walked to the hospital. I thought it would be all right. And besides, why pay for a taxi when it would have cost me [00:14:00] a dollar on the bus? Um, so it's sort of quite mean, But he was also one of the most generous people that I know. He would if somebody needed help or somebody needed something. He would open his heart, his house, his wallet, whatever and give it to them. Um, he never turned anybody away. He never turned anybody down. [00:14:30] I think he died the way he wanted. He didn't want he never liked a fuss. And he was a fairly private person and he wouldn't want wouldn't have wanted anybody there. I think he decided himself that [00:15:00] that was the time he would have hated living on having to have somebody do everything for him to have lost that control over his own life, his own actions. I think he decided himself that that was the time. And that was the the place. [00:15:30] I believe he did it. Then he wouldn't have wanted me there. I don't think he would have wanted me to be as upset as I was, I was angry that he'd done it. I was very angry that he done that without saying anything without letting me know. [00:16:00] But that's what he would have wanted. That's the way he was. I can understand that knife. It was never the same after that. [00:16:30] I had to go home and ring his family and tell his family that tell his father and his brother that he died, but because he had never been able to tell them he never told them he was gay. I couldn't tell them that he'd had AIDS. I told him he died of Ploy [00:17:00] and they came up. They wanted to see the body, but they couldn't because when the body was taken to the morgue because Michael had died of AIDS, they wouldn't put him near any of the other bodies or in the cellar cabinet, and his body had deteriorated to such an extent that they couldn't allow anybody to view the body. [00:17:30] Michael has never been a religious person, and he'd always said that when he died he wanted to be cremated and then two days after the cremation, to have the notice put in the paper that he had died and people to be informed, and that's what he he said. He'd left in as well. Over about six months beforehand, he'd come down the stairs [00:18:00] and come to me, and he says, You don't agree with me putting the notice in the paper after I've been cremated, Do you? I said no. I said I felt that it was unfair on his friends and those who loved him not to be able to be part of saying goodbye, not being able to share what they felt and to be able to express their sorrow and being able to say [00:18:30] their goodbyes in some way that he was depriving them of the actions of saying goodbye. So he's about If you will do it, you can take a funeral service, but only if you do it. So I agreed to that. So I took his funeral service. He had it all planned out. It's exactly what he wanted, [00:19:00] what music he wanted. And he wanted to send in the clowns to be played as the funeral started. And as at the funeral, I was the lay chaplain at the time, so there I was in my little white robes walking up the aisle to the coffin head to the tune of Send in the clowns. And I had to laugh [00:19:30] because I thought, This is his final revenge on me that here I am poncing up, all made up in white robes and what have you to his favourite tune of Send in the Clowns. And the biggest clown of all was walking up the aisle shortly after we started the funeral. The dogs, which had been kept in the car, got out of the car and they came running into the chapel [00:20:00] and ran right up the front and sat underneath a coffin, and I was unable to continue. He got a send off. He would have loved it. He would have laughed all the time. [00:20:30] It's probably still laughing. 20 years after 20 years, it's as if suddenly [00:21:00] your life has stopped. Nothing's ever the same. The person you always talk to is no longer there. The person you felt comfortable just being beside was just sitting with not saying anything. It was no longer there everyday things of your life, [00:21:30] which becomes so natural and so routine. It's no longer happening. You've got to start all over again and you can't. I'm surrounded by things that remind you every day [00:22:00] you're surrounded by memories. Never go away. You live your life hoping that the door's going to open and he's going to come back, that you're going to hear the voice of the laugh [00:22:30] of the arguments. It doesn't happen and nobody really understands. So you have to pretend and you have to [00:23:00] laugh and joke. But even now, 10 years later, it still hurts. Still empty. I still want to wind the clock back, go back and do things all over again. [00:23:30] May be different. Maybe the same, but you can't.

IRN: 171
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rene_capone_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003819
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089113
TITLE: Rene Capone profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Rene Capone
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: Rene Capone; San Francisco; United States of America; arts; gay; profile; visual arts
DATE: 30 June 2008
YEAR: 2008
LOCATION: San Francisco, San Francisco, United States of America
CONTEXT: In this podcast Rene talks about growing up and working as an artist in San Francisco, USA.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm Renee. We're in San Francisco. We're in my little hobbit hole and there are 20 paintings around me. Somewhere are from the future. Some are from the past. I started making art work pretty seriously after I left college and I ran away from New York City screaming Bad place. Um, and I just got really lucky and sold a lot of artwork and kind of got comfortable in San Francisco [00:00:30] and and just kept doing that and doing that for years and years. So it's then it's like So last year I had a motorcycle accident. I shattered my collarbone and I because I'm an extreme human being, and I So I was doubling up on Percocet, which is totally not a good thing to do. So I was laying in bed on drugs and prescription. Thank you. And I came up with this story about a boy who has a giant hedgehog on top of his head, and I think, somehow just laying there injured, [00:01:00] you know, just trying to get better. I was able to kind of drift off into this parallel universe that somehow had to do with me, but it took me a long time to figure out why and how, and I actually ended up having to go to psychotherapy because of it. It's true, Um, and then out of that came a short story I wrote with a friend of mine. He just He kind of took the way I talked and put it into words, which was so nice of him. So then I started illustrating it, and that took about a year. [00:01:30] And then I just decided it had to be a comic book because of the elements in the book. I'm a visual person, so they can only be explained visually. So I have to draw every everything, so because no one will understand what's inside my head if I don't draw it. So I was initially afraid of all the work, but then when I started to do it, I realised it was so much fun. And it's kind of like making a movie. There's angles and shots, and there's a narrative, and you have to make it flow right, so I'm still at the beginning. I have only three pages [00:02:00] done, but I'm pretty serious. It'll be done soon. So who is it aimed at? It's kind of like a huge love letter to any little gay boy who had to run away from home. And I'll probably state that right in the beginning. If you read the story, you'll you'll. You'll understand why it's all about. It's all about boys who had to leave awful circumstances to find out who they were, and they come to San Francisco and live in Golden Gate Park and interact [00:02:30] with each other. And in the end, hopefully it'll have some sort of meaning for that little kid who needs to figure out what he's doing. So I kind of want in a way. I think I'm kind of making it for myself when I was younger. And then by doing that, I'll be able to somehow affect somebody's life, maybe make them realise that they don't have to live where they're living or have to put up with what people are doing to them and that they can be something else. Can [00:03:00] you talk a wee bit more about that? Um, one of the ways that I remember escaping was to go like comic books, which were a lot cheaper back then, and draw from the pages, which is kind of how I learned to draw people. So, um, it's very hard for me to talk about what happened when I was a kid because it's terribly unfortunate. So that's why I think I'm making it for myself when I was that age. The beginning of the story is my story, the first probably four pages of [00:03:30] it, and then it becomes crazy land after that. But it's about a boy who, um, unfortunately has to live in a basement and, um wakes up one day and realises he doesn't have to put up with it anymore. And he crawls out the window and doesn't go home. That's the story. What age 14. Hm? So it could kind of, you know, kind of comes from a very personal place, so it's very important to me. But it's also important to me because I know there are so many gay boys [00:04:00] that go through that, and if there was something that could help them make me just feel a little bit better, and if I somehow could do that for somebody else, I would feel better. So is it important to you to have a mass audience, or are you just happy with, you know, like one. Well, I could say I'm very spoiled and that a lot of people have always been curious about what I do and have been generous enough to purchase them and keep them and all that sort of thing. [00:04:30] So if I were to, you know, if I never sold anything, I again I probably would be a little offended. Um, but it's more important that I follow my instincts creatively. I have a pretty good feeling I have a kind of a grasp on what a gay boy might want to read if he was coming of age and trying to figure out who he was. So I think it'll be OK. Can you talk a wee bit about [00:05:00] just the development from from these quite large paintings here to the comic? I started out large because that's how I draw so I can use my hand to this full ability, and then I can trick it down later. Um, but it's also how I kind of figured out the elements and what it all meant. I kind of created them like they were fine art paintings, even though they were comic book based because I thought the imagery, I had to kind of work it out in fine art painting. You can kind of like process [00:05:30] images and work them and rework them and figure out what they are. So through that I came up with the swords and the clocks. And so our main character is obsessed with telling time, but he doesn't know how to. So he steals clocks from everybody around the park and puts them in his little tree house, and he can't read. So he's out these books. So through the paintings, I was able to come up with the clocks in the books and draw them and redraw them and come up with the swords, too. And I think I wanted them to be fine art paintings. Then [00:06:00] I realised that to reach the people I really want to reach, it has to be in a format that is cheap and, um, available. Not everybody can afford to buy a big painting, and I think the people that I the people I most care about are people that can't buy a large painting. That doesn't mean people who by large painting should stop them. Um, but I'm most concerned with the the emotions of those boys that, [00:06:30] you know, they don't have a lot of money. So to get them to read it and to touch them, I have It has to be something they can go buy for, You know, like four bucks, five bucks, whatever it is. Have you had any feedback from that audience? Yeah, they mostly love it. And, oddly enough, for some reason, I, um, Asian women love it a whole lot. There's this whole subculture called Yahweh. It stems from Japan. And when I was first [00:07:00] making the comic book well, first making the paintings about the comic book I looked at a lot of the awe comic books, and they're all really high drama emotional stories about gay boys in love that are made by women for women in Japan. So somehow, um, I get emails from Asian girls who love it. I was thinking more about, um, that kind of target audience that you were thinking of of of young, Um, but I haven't gotten to the ones that I'm really trying to get to yet. [00:07:30] I'm mostly just reaching all the gay boys that I always have before. I actually want to go more back in time to that emotional place when you're kind of growing up. Is it hard for you to kind of, um, draw the stuff when it has got such a deep impact? Personally, I think if if I didn't care about it, it wouldn't look so good if it resonates that I've been there and then I made it, then that's mostly what I care about. So can we talk a wee bit about your earlier work? [00:08:00] Well, I think I always geographically, I always tried. I strived to draw people the best that I could for a long time to prove to myself that I could do it. So I think it all was preparation for being able to scale everything down to a more comic booky style. I don't think I could be able to draw the people that I'm drawing this comic book. If I hadn't drawn or gone out of my way to try to draw the figure the way that it is in real life. But then again, you know I never quite did it right. So it's a very comic [00:08:30] book. It's very graphic. I always drew with lots of shadows that were very dark and then very light. I think it's because I learned to draw people from looking at comic books when I was younger. If I look at all the old ones, they kind of look like all the boys before they get to the park. It's like all the boys before They quite, you know, kind of teeter off the insane block all the same people. I think I've been drawing the same damn story over and over and over and over for the past eight years. [00:09:00] And will it ever be finished? I hope not. Um, I'd like to finish. I'd like to have a finished product, but I don't want to finish the idea in the story. If I stop having the idea, then there's not quite anything to do. Does I know the ski? No, I mean occasionally. I don't have the energy to do something, but it always comes back and I always make something. You probably [00:09:30] know this. You know the feeling. I'm sure you take photographs. You're probably just not inspired sometimes, But eventually it comes around and you have something else to say or to do Well, I, I find I actually need breaks. I you know, like I mean, if, for instance, you know, I I'm photographing a couple of models in a very short space of time, Then I just don't I don't see it that there has to be that kind of freshness and and kind of has to be unique. The subject matter each time, even if it is a human being, are these are these [00:10:00] real people? I mean, are these real models or one of my absolute favourite thing to do And you saw them as you commented when you walked from my apartment is to steal images from old seventies magazines, old porn, seventies magazines and jobs and robbers. It's a classic, and it was $15 in 1978 and you're buying it for the art I am because they just change their heads and I have all these bodies to work with, and they're they're actually quite nice photos. They're a little bit nicer [00:10:30] than the stuff that's made today. So what's your favourite image here? It's impossible to say, probably always the one that I just finished. And then if I look back and then I find like, real favourites. But Zebra Boy is my favourite at the moment because I think he's really has intense eyes and is really beautiful. And he's escaping. So anybody escaping looks really intense. You know, it's like that. Try to put these little childhood elements, even even though it's kind of dark and it's [00:11:00] kind of strange. Try to throw something from childhood in it that can be kind of cute. It's like a release. Almost. I really like this, Um, this black and white one here that's very peaceful. That's just relaxing and taking a nap. He's watching over Kitty. Kitty is his boyfriend. Yeah, it's a little overwhelming when I'm sitting here and I'm looking at it and you're making me talk about it. It's It's better when it's contained in the drawers. Talk about that kind of overpowering [00:11:30] feeling. It can be very frustrating because if the idea in your head is so strong and so big and so powerful and you can't physically make it fast enough, it kind of can be very overwhelming. You know, your hands can only do so much and your body can only do so much. I'm not good at talking about myself. Why is an effort for you because you shut up at my door? Um, because [00:12:00] I'm I'm forced to think about the overwhelming things on my head. And sometimes I'd rather just peacefully make stuff than think. It's like the same thing about, like writing an artist statement. It's really difficult to do. It's like you just don't really want to. Sometimes it's better just to be than to think about what it is that you're being. I'd rather just be it, um, so do you. Do you have a paint without your glasses? I'm sure I've done that before, but no. And it's not like something I go out of my way to do or anything like that. [00:12:30] Usually I'm really, really up close and really intense about looking at every little inch and making sure everything's perfect. I'm a little obsessive when it comes to it, like I will, like, just stay there until it's right. So ultimately things can be right. I know some people, just they they're never satisfied with with their their final output. Well, I remember my professors in art school talking about that. There were artists that would go even to museums and, like, touch [00:13:00] up their own paintings and stuff like that. Um, and I totally appreciate that. But if it's done when I know a piece like, kind of encases all the emotions that it's supposed to and it keeps them there, then I know it's done. So once I reach that point, I don't want anything to do with it anymore, because it's like breaking china or something. You just don't want to touch it. So you you can, you know, you can fuck up an entire painting just with, like, one stroke, and the whole thing is ruined. So if you [00:13:30] reach the point where it feels right to stop, do you ever discard paintings? Yes, but you won't ever see them. But you still hold on to them. Maybe for a time. And then I or I turn it over and do something else. Yeah, I've destroyed a few of them. In fact, my my neighbour next to me was telling me he used to go through my garbage can. Um, and I have no idea why, because they I mean, I would shred them pretty much, and he would pull them out and, like, look [00:14:00] at them and take them to his apartment, which ultimately, I think that makes him creepy. But yeah, I do. I throw shit away if I think it's bad. But II, I don't think I destroyed that many things, though. I try to be pretty. I don't wanna say calculated, but I really do think about it before I start it. I'm not gonna I think some artists probably approach it from a very free standpoint. Like I'm just gonna create something. But I have to know what I'm gonna do before I do it. I have to have a very concrete idea. And [00:14:30] how do those ideas come? I always like stories and narratives and things that have a point or a message. So as long as as long as I have something like that going through my head, I can usually come up with images to go along with it. I think I'm probably more of an illustrator. Yeah, I couldn't. I understand the whole, like, just make something but I. I think for me to make something has to be somehow grounded in reality. Like it has to come from an emotional [00:15:00] point that is real in the time that we live. Um, I really love the imagery in the comic book. I love how romantic it is. I love the stories between all the boys. I like this. It's just unashamed to be gay from right out the starting gate. It's not even about being gay at all, but all the boys are going to be gay. Hey, can you briefly touch on is what's the organisation? Is it visual aids? It's. [00:15:30] And how does that how does that relate to you? It's a really fantastic organisation that started out in the eighties. Um, the one goal to help artists produce artwork that have, um, a life threatening illness to, I think, promote their health and their awareness of their existence, and just to give them something to feel good about. Um, so I guess you know how many years later Now they're still doing that, [00:16:00] and they're just a bigger organisation, and they just they're very, very supportive of of a a section of the community that is very large in the gay community. And they support people with HIV, and I think they do now. People who have are cancer survivors So if you're an artist and you kind of have to get over that that block that stumbling block, they give you money, money to buy art supplies and then they keep a slide registry and they [00:16:30] they just kind of look out for us a little bit. So how long have you been involved with that? About four years. They weren't as big as when I joined. And now I know that there are. There are organisations a lot bigger, almost more serious, like like they they can pull strings now like they have. They have some muscle behind them, but I think it always was and always has been. An organization's sole purpose was to make people feel better about creating something and [00:17:00] having it be seen. It's pretty rare. Do you think it works? Yeah, there were times when, um, I didn't particularly feel like doing much of anything because I just thought I was going to die or something. So being able to make artwork, you know, kind of help me get over it and and get on with my life.

IRN: 184
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_touchstones_gareth_watkins.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003820
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089929
TITLE: Gareth Watkins - Rainbow Touchstones
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Gareth Watkins
INTERVIEWER: Mike Gourley
TAGS: 2010s; Gareth Watkins; Mental Health Foundation; Mike Gourley; Rainbow Touchstones; depression; health; mental health
DATE: 27 September 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast producer Gareth Watkins talks about Rainbow Touchstones - a mental health digital storytelling project.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: What was the idea that prompted you to put in this application to the to the Mental Health Foundation? I guess I had been aware of the, um, mental health media grants for a number of years, and I had seen some really good work come out of that. And I guess I knew also that there was a lot of mental health issues in the kind of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and sex communities. [00:00:30] And I wanted a positive way of of helping other people. You know, when you look at some of the statistics like young people who are attracted to the same sex are up to 12 times more likely to try and commit suicide? Um, that that that's a huge number. Um, and I. I just wanted something that was positive, something that allowed the community to share their own stories. So basically, I'm just acting as a facilitator. That [00:01:00] statistic obviously shocked you. Is this about trying to find out why or is it more about saying, Well, this is the way it is. Let's find out what's actually happening. I think it's about helping the community. Uh, II. I think the reasons seem quite obvious as to why and in the community Generally, you know, there there is quite a large section of kind of mental health issues, you know, depression, anxiety. But then you kind of layer on top [00:01:30] of that, um, some of the issues that, um, kind of lesbian gay communities face in terms of, you know, maybe not being out to their families, not being out to their friends. Um, not being out to themselves these layers that build up. And then, of course, you know, when you've got that kind of feeling of isolation and lone, you know, you might be talking about kind of drug and alcohol issues as well. Um, you know, fear for the future job relationships. Um, and they all kind of add on to each other. So the higher [00:02:00] incidents, if you like of of mental health issues in these communities didn't come as a surprise in some ways, to you? Not at all. What do you think? Or how difficult is it going to be for you then, given that there is that sense of isolation and and sense of not able to to come out? How difficult is it going to be for you to get people to come and share their stories. It was interesting in putting together this proposal, Um, for a mental health media grant. I [00:02:30] was aware of, at least, you know, maybe five or six kind of close friends that had issues. And I thought, Gosh, well, you know, if I know five or six people, it's it. It is gonna be quite a large number of people out in the community. Um, on the first day of putting out a press release actually asking for participants, um, I got 10 people email me on one hand. Um, that that's great. On the other hand, it's kind of a bit depressing as well, because you think, gosh, it is quite widespread. But ultimately, it's very [00:03:00] positive because it means that those people want to share their stories. They want to help the community in some way. What's going to get produced, how these stories is going to be conveyed, how you're going to be the facilitator. Yeah, Well, digital stories are a really, uh, fascinating way of communicating a story or an idea. Uh, basically, a digital story is between about three and five minutes. It's a video piece. It's primarily driven by the participant. So, um, [00:03:30] I will work on a 1 to 1 basis with them and focus in on a particular aspect of a story. Then they write some narration. They we do do a wee bit of work shopping. So we write a bit of a script. Um, ideally, they would have had some other kind of creative output, be it, you know, kind of poetry, prose, writing, singing songs that that narration and speech stuff is into woven with maybe interview material. Um, and then visually, you know, with photographs [00:04:00] with, um, old photographs and new photographs and that basically forms the basis of of the digital story. And how is it going to be conveyed? What will be the different media that you can use to convey those stories? One of the really exciting things with this project is that the main output is going to be on the Internet. So the stories will be up, um, via YouTube so that basically anyone can look at the stories and that is great because not only do you [00:04:30] have a global audience, but also you could be reaching people that aren't necessarily comfortable talking with family and friends around them. Um, it's a very 1 to 1 personal experience rather than seeing something in a theatre. So, you know, we're probably gonna reach people that we wouldn't reach in other circumstances. Um, and then the other, um, way that these are being released is on, uh, DVD. And that will be available to counsellors and and support groups as well. So you're gonna [00:05:00] have to be almost a curator of stories as much as a facilitator, aren't you? Because people are gonna have to feel comfortable talking to you to start with. Absolutely. Um, I think the big thing is that relationship between, uh, me as the kind of facilitator producer and and the participant as well. And I think, you know, we're we're kind of working now on the kind of selection process. What kind of people are we wanting to participate and who wants to participate? Um, there There's quite a large number of kind of criteria [00:05:30] we're looking at to make sure that I I think both the participants safe and and that, um, the producer is safe as well that you're not re traumatising people. Um, that they're giving informed consent. They have to be aware that that what they're doing is actually sharing themselves publicly. That's why I I use the word curator because it's not like you're just simply gathering the stories and then saying, Right, they're out there Goodbye. It's like an exhibition of, of, of whatever that you actually are not only getting it to a point [00:06:00] where it can be exhibited, but you're then making sure that the way that it's exhibited from now on in is going to be something which honours and acknowledges the the person's experience or the people's experiences. I. I want to go through a process when we're actually creating these where, you know the participants have to be happy all the way through. And that's why at the very onset of the process, um, they need to be fully aware of what they're actually doing is going to be very public. [00:06:30] And I suppose the challenge there is that someone might start off by saying this is OK. But in the process of telling this story, start to relive some of those those feelings and may be then not so sure that they want that story told you're gonna have to be, I guess, working with people right the way through and again. You know, I think the kind of preselection is going to be really important in identifying, you know, how close to events are the participants or potential participants, [00:07:00] you know? Are they still feeling kind of really angry or hurt or or whatever? Um, I suppose digital stories are very much about reflection. So it's it's reflecting on an event and how you positively have dealt with that event. So yes, uh, certainly people in crisis. Um II. I certainly don't think this is appropriate for that. It's it's more reflecting back on an on an event, of course, suicide. There's a huge, um, a lot of talk [00:07:30] around how media represents that. That's something you're gonna have to obviously take into account, too. Yeah, And was that something that when you were putting the the project in, that that that was an issue in some ways of how that was going to be dealt with? Oh, yes. And, um, certainly the the the Mental Health Foundation were, um, very strong in me getting support from spins, which is, uh, suicide prevention information. New Zealand, who I have to say, both Spins and the Mental Health Foundation have been absolutely fantastic. Uh, in terms of offering advice, [00:08:00] guidance, um, that they've been great. What's the time frame? The time frame is that over the next 4 to 6 weeks, um, I'm seeking participants who who would be interested in in taking part. Um, then we'll go through a process with the Mental Health Foundation to select five people to take part in the digital stories and then from January next year. It's the production of those stories. [00:08:30] Um, and it should all be wrapped up by August. Uh, next year, one of the things that, um, I've come up against as well as you know, well say you have 20 people wanting to participate. Uh, and you've only got five digital stories. What do you do? How do you tell the other people that actually that they haven't been selected, So I need to think of ways in which we can actually widen the participation. Maybe not in digital stories, but some other form of actual contribution, because I think it's really important that [00:09:00] if people are saying I want to tell my story that. Actually, you allow that to happen in some way? Yes. Once you open those gates, it's, uh, not necessarily going to be something you want to close. No. And I mean, one of the things that we were talking about with, um, spins and the Mental Health Foundation. If we can structure this project as, uh, almost a pilot project and work through the process and work through how it all works effectively, then it could possibly lead on to to other things. Um, So my aim is [00:09:30] to try and structure in such a way that actually, at the end of the project, this could be taken up by somebody else and and they could do a similar thing.

IRN: 197
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/changing_face_of_castro.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003821
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089115
TITLE: Changing Face of the Castro
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Jan de Gier
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; Castro District; HIV / AIDS; Harvey Milk; Inn on Castro; Jan de Gier; San Francisco; United States of America; gay
DATE: 27 June 2008
YEAR: 2008
LOCATION: San Francisco, San Francisco, United States of America
CONTEXT: In this podcast Jan de Gier from the Inn on Castro talks about the changing face of the Castro neighbourhood in San Francisco.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So Jan. Here we are at, uh, 321, Castro, which is the Enon Castro. And you've been here for how many years? 25 ish, And that is running the end. Yeah, I've been here in the country longer, but running the end and the end is probably about 32 years old is what we're we're thinking, meaning on the books. So in that time thing, things must have changed tremendously. But you have to see where [00:00:30] we came from from fifties Mammy Eisenhower and all that time. And it was, I'm sure, in New Zealand and everywhere the same. Roughly, Uh, we came after the Second World War, and everybody was all prim and proper and all driven. Uh, then the sixties came in where everything was possible and it was all about love, and and that changed it. The summer of love here in the sixties. Uh, it was up in the in the, uh uh which is one hill over. And that's basically where the gay [00:01:00] scene kind of gravitated to because it was, you know, all was possible. So there were lots of handsome young men out there that were not sure what they were. And then love was love. It didn't matter. We didn't label it then and it was all fine. Um, what happened then, though, is, um drugs started becoming from soft drugs becoming hard drugs. And then it changed the neighbourhood and, um, the artistically inclined moved up the coast. Those that [00:01:30] like to do a little harvest themselves. And so along Mendocino, you got a tremendous arts community that came out of that tremendous because some of the artists can, you know, demand 100,000 for a beautiful piece of furniture and just exquisitely carved, um, the gay scene moved from the heat to here because a we all love good weather. And that's the only reasonable weather that we have here in the summer months. Meaning you get to see some sun. And, [00:02:00] um, there was great infrastructure because the subway had just opened up. And so this Irish community slowly changed into more and more a gay community. It became more gay than ever when AIDS started hitting us. And, um, this became kind of the core. And this is kind of where San Francisco is known for as the gay centre, and that was based on the Castro. The number of people gay here [00:02:30] was, I would say close to 85 if not 90%. That has changed over the years, of course. Now, um uh, there's more straits in the last 10 years of, uh, women started coming in, which was a great thing. It was always lesbian still, but they were able to crest the glass ceiling in corporate America. Therefore, they could afford them to live here because by the time it started getting expensive, the women used to then live along Valencia Street or on Burn Heights, [00:03:00] which was known as Bo Hill. And so that's where the smaller cottage is. We have the houses here, they have the Cottages, and so that's still Lesbian Hill is still more or less. Bernal Heights is still a very lesbian. That's where you find the prams and the dogs. And in that, I mean the four legged kind. And then, uh, here in the neighbourhood, yeah, you you find less prams and more dogs, but that's a combination of two and four legged ones. Yeah, [00:03:30] So it's basically, um uh, now more and more, the 40 pluses straight that are coming in having a decent income because both working one say in the IT world. And for that, that could be either in the Internet world or the computer world, uh, down the peninsula or, uh, in general, the women tend to be more into, uh, uh, human resources downtown. Uh, and from when I started here, it was relatively cheap. [00:04:00] Now we're getting people that are coming in in our neighbourhood that, uh, changed buildings from the inside out. Basically, they leave the structure in place, but totally got it. And now we're getting into the time of gentrification with $2. 5 million buildings that are not totally the style of what the neighbourhood used to be. But they come here. Most of them tend to be New Yorkers that buy this because from where they come, that is cheaper. And, [00:04:30] um, they want the bells and whistles and the whole thing. But they like the the somewhat grittiness of our neighbourhood. We're not really gritty, but there is a little bit of an air of we're not not this polished suburbia look. And so since the weather is good and you have great infrastructure, meaning the connection with public transit to downtown and connection to the Opera Symphony and so on. It's a It's a very desirable neighbourhood. Yeah, but still, thank God about, I would say, 75% gay. [00:05:00] Yeah, so? So there's still ladies from the past because we had an, uh, proposition. Uh, it's called, uh, 37. I think it was that, uh, allow people to pay taxes over, um, their real estate when they buy it. And that was to protect people. All the ladies that end up living alone, uh, not being forced out of their community out of the neighbourhood. So you have still the old Irish ladies that are still living here, [00:05:30] uh, up to, you know, the queens. And and so it's becoming more of a mixed society, which is what you want. You don't want this total segregation of us and them straight and gay, you know, as it used to be in the olden times. You know, lesbians here, boys. There, you know, it just become more of what life is in general and a melting pot for all. So it is. It is a nice free thinking society, [00:06:00] and that embraces all differences uh, celebrates all those differences, uh, in, you know, and that is not exclusively only the Castro it is in the city over all that seems to be more or less overall, more to permeate. Uh, if you read tales of the city, the books, uh, it's it's pretty much a reflection of day to day life then and that more or less continues, which is a delight. [00:06:30] Can you paint a picture of what the Castro was like in the late seventies and early eighties? Well, wild. Uh um, maybe a little too wild for its own good, you know? But you have to see, as I said before, it came from the the natural progression was coming from Amy Eisenhower and no flesh and no, you know, and being proper to flower power, which is, um, [00:07:00] loving one and another for who we are, and and and indeed having a good time with one another and not judge as much. But that went haywire. It went too far, as the pendulum always does. And, uh, so it was for a while, a little too wild here, uh, for its own good. And the pendulum swung back, but not as far as that it did in other parts of the country when it became very pious again, Uh, holy [00:07:30] than now it it has always had that real sense, this whole spirit of freedom and that allows people to be. And and although it's tuned down now, it's not as wild now which I think is better. We have ads here. We've seen some, um, wonderful archival clips on YouTube of marches in the late seventies and early eighties. Um, around around this area, [00:08:00] I mean, it must have been quite amazing, actually. I mean, you're literally 10 steps down from the corner of of market, and it was, um there was a lot of still repression here, and part wise was that also, you have to see that there was an economy going on in in the in and a lot of people don't see that part is that you have an a very Catholic Irish community that all of a sudden gets all these wild and really wild men and half naked, [00:08:30] walking up and down and so on. There was resentment there as well. Well, guess what? The police was built up 80% Irish, so there was an anger there too, Which was expressed to, you know, in terms of when there were rates coming into the CAS store as well. They're taking over. However, we paid for their properties. Market value. They did get. They did get their income. [00:09:00] This is Can I help you? Sure. Bye. Bye. So where were we? We were just mentioning other marches that we'd seen on YouTube. Well, that's the beginning of AIDS crisis when people started falling down and nobody knew what happened, or and then, um, the amazing thing was it was just like one doesn't [00:09:30] comprehend that. Somebody quote unquote has the bug and three months, you don't see them. They're an old person. They look like 80 years old, and then the next time they're gone, you know? And so there were so many that died. Um, and, you know, we're quite we were quite a substantial part of the city. It's less now, so percentage wise than when it used to be. Um, but, you know, there was nothing else anywhere [00:10:00] else. You know, one came to San Francisco. It was kind of like I'm going to mecca now because every city has a gay district or an area where one more tends to congregate and live? Um, that is less so. So the percentage has gone down politically because we were so, uh, very vocal. Um, And, um, demanding, you know, fairly. So to be seen and to be appreciated. And, uh, we became very strong [00:10:30] in, uh, being represented, uh, in in, uh, the Board of Supervisors. That is the the board that is right under the mayor. Um, I don't know what the equivalent would be in New Zealand, but, uh, so they're not running the city. It's just it is. It used to be direct representation of neighbourhoods. Then, uh, after Harvey milk got killed and and the mayor musco who put him out there, uh, as a replacement, He, um both the boys [00:11:00] were killed. Um, they changed the system, uh, in which it now was an all city overall election, direct election. And because we we knew that if you wanted to implement change, you have to get involved. The gay vote became the big vote in the city. Uh, straight didn't matter that much. Black was hardly well, it was represented, but not in the numbers that we were. So we were actually prorate a much stronger represented [00:11:30] on the board of supervisors we would have out of, um What was it, 12, 11 or 12? We had six. I think so. And that was all gay boys and girls and that it's the girls that have done historically the best, uh, in going further and further state level. Uh, really, Um, tremendous People came out of that time, Um, our mayor, who is now then the state senator Feinstein, uh [00:12:00] uh. All came out of that. She became the new mayor after the killing of the mayor and, um, Harvey and so that that changed things a lot. We knew we had to be there. We needed to to if you wanted to have change, you have to be proactive and and stay connected and continue giving money to the different courses to get ahead. Uh, but in the meantime, there's this political involvement of political [00:12:30] growth. All these people started dying around us, you know? And it was in the beginning, particularly awkward because we didn't know what was happening. And, uh, you wanted to claim your insurance and you were forced to move over in a different, uh, postal code because you your insurance would cancel your insurance or bring the insurance that high, that you couldn't afford it anymore. The ugliness of of that. Ultimately it corrected itself. But in the beginning, as anything goes in the beginning, it's [00:13:00] haphazardly and little ugly. It must have been quite tough. I imagine the the very rapid decline of people. You you cannot understand that somebody can die in such a short period of time, particularly when people are in the in the, you know, in the the fullest part of their life and highly energetic and and you know you have all of life in front of US. Youth [00:13:30] is arrogant about life and assumes that it will go on forever. It was just, you know, we would have, uh, the gay rank. The BAR would be full with 50 people dying, you know, every week. And it just was awful, you know? And that's then changed over time when ultimately we figured out a the psychology of it because one would say in the beginning Oh, God, I have so many counts [00:14:00] of, you know, white white blood cells and oh, my God. Oh, my God. That people started getting out of that a little bit, just realising that that was not the one and only going thing. And the psychology had to be along with it. And then then God prote inhibitors were discovered, and that's brought us to where we're at now. Where we were back to the normal, say, four or five people that pass in our community per week, uh, that are advertised in the [00:14:30] obituaries. But for the rest it is now. It doesn't mean that AIDS has stopped. And as we said before, there's still an arrogance with youth that, you know, they think it's an old man's disease, but it's still there, you know? Um, so it will repeat itself. I'm sure several generations still will find an answer, you know, And you just hope that we learn from the lessons to now I [00:15:00] have to say sadly that we haven't within the gay scene. There's still too much. Um yeah, unprotected sex, you know. So, um uh, but, you know, that's us living on the edge. I assume, uh, but it's it's sad because it shouldn't, You know, we should all be very practical. practical about it. And particularly when [00:15:30] you were somebody you don't know, um, intimately or you know that it's good to have a rubber around. What was it like when they just didn't know how people were being infected and and what could be done? Mm. Well, how can I say this now? It's [00:16:00] a part of living. Uh, and maybe we were We were a little cavalier about it in the beginning because we'd never had this kind of pandemic. If you look at the numbers, really look at the numbers. People don't want to look, really, because it is too much in your face. And it's better to kind of push it a little bit away and not really face it, but it is a pandemic or was a pandemic. Um, it's frightening, you [00:16:30] know? It scares everybody. And so what you had here was, uh, people. One of the side effects, if you want to call. That was that. People started moving out of the city to the burbs. To the heart, land of the right wing black. Sorry, blue collar. Uh uh Oh. When I'm away, then I won't get it kind of approach, you know, There's always denial. You know, we're good at that. So, uh and, uh, it's, [00:17:00] you know, it didn't change anything, you know, it was there. It was there to, uh, to be dealt with. And it went with a huge cost, huge cost. And, um, the numbers of people have died. It's It's kind of like, you know, don't want to say the black death, but we've had influenza that really killed an awful lot of people. And it's it's on that level. When there were major major, [00:17:30] um, diseases. Yeah. So it wasn't fun. And it the Castro became an old folks home and you looked around. In a certain point, it looked like Castro was for a retirement community. You know, all everybody looked old, and, uh and they weren't. But that's how it looked like. And it took about 10 years before the new young generation started coming back and saying like, you know, we have to move on. Uh, but as I said, naive [00:18:00] as they were not totally realising what they were doing and thought, well, we wouldn't get it until they started dropping. And then we had to do the whole routine of, say, sex parties of, you know, explaining how things need to be done, what you need to do to be, you know, to be able to live as a gay man and and enjoy yourself on all levels, but still be responsible. So but here we [00:18:30] are, 2008, and life has improved itself in many ways. And, uh, you know, then we had no examples. It was always about and and not a legal edge to it. You know, what you read in newspapers was about, you know, perverts and we dressing people. And, you know, all you saw on TV was, you know, gay liberation parade with everybody in drag. And [00:19:00] the assumption was, that's what it was to be gay. And they did not understand that So many facets. You know what you call normal people that were just as much there as well. And so that that now, since we have gay characters on TV and that taboo is broke and and the word is out and it's fine and we have no thank God for our local ambassador Mr Harmel, who was willing to take his, you know, stick his neck out and and fought [00:19:30] the Republican at that point in opposition during the last years of the Clinton administration, Uh, to get an openly gay medicine ambassador was not accepted. Before that, you could be closeted. That was fine, but not openly. And once that was approved, it was fine, As as it always goes, and then within the Republican Party, they can accept it as well. And then they have in their own ranks, [00:20:00] openly gay men as well. You know, not flaming Queens is what I'm talking about, professional man. But you know, that happened to live in homosexual open homosexual life. So and so, yeah, they've had tremendous changes, which is for the better for everybody. I think, you know, diversity is good, it's natural. And now, just over a week ago, um, California opened up the marriage, [00:20:30] and that's another step in the right direction. Um, of course, the question is, who is going to compete with the divorces? He, you know. But, you know, that's, uh, that's another story, but, uh, yeah, yeah, well, it's It's about rights, and it's as simple as that. And and marriage at City Hall has nothing to do about religion. It's [00:21:00] an It's a contract simple as that. And, uh, everybody has to have the right to have that contract. It's better for quote unquote family values, you know, for when you're two together and it can be man and woman, woman, woman, man, man, whatever you know, it is a contract. If you want to go to the church, that is your story. Then you go to the church, Different story. But this is, you know, and that just before it was No, no. But all the excuses that were held on was the same. All the excuses [00:21:30] for having blacks not voted equal. And it's all the same thing, all the same thing it is about equality and equality needs to be for all. So this is again another step, another great step forward for California. And as things go in, you know, with the westerly winds starts from California flips over. In this case, it started actually in New Hampshire and [00:22:00] Vermont, but ultimately got momentum here and has to do with, you know, our openly representatives in the state and local levels, um that have been pushing, pushing, pushing for equality and, uh, brought it all the way there is, that is, um that is from down south. Um, and it was a matter of time. But now it's going to flip back over to the East Coast again. It's just and [00:22:30] then slowly, as it did with the sixties, the wild stuff started here, went over to New York and then 10 years later, it's just reaching the Midwest, so it is somewhat the same there. It's a big country there. It takes a while. And that's true with with many things, you know? I mean, you can't blame people that are conservative that they are, because oftentimes they don't know any better. I come from myself from a farming stock in a military town. Well, [00:23:00] not much activity was put into creativity and painting and art and all of that stuff, and so you don't know any better. And that's the the beauty of city is the diversity that it creates. And, uh, this is where we have to be so careful of also with our environment is not to kill the diversity. You know, that is, in forests that is in oceans. It's everywhere the same. It's not to which human humanity has a attend the city off. Just [00:23:30] harvest. Kill it all instead of looking in what the Native American that is You know, you. You selectively so that there will be something left for the next generation. So but it seems to be a human trait. Call it greed, Whatever it is, you know, Quick, quick, back. You know. So but, yeah, Now we're We're, um I was afraid that during the, um, the Republican years that we would have a backlash, and that didn't happen at all. [00:24:00] You know, it just it is. It's like there's a consciousness and we've expanded. And you, once the gene is out of the bottle, you can't put it back in. And that is a wonderful thing to know that, you know, progression does exist and continues, and part of that is the diversity that comes along with it. The broader way of looking at things from Mummy Eisenhower very narrow and very limited. When we didn't know any better, because we had either [00:24:30] brown bread or white bread, and that was it. And now we're eating 50 different kinds of breads. What kind of a bread do you want? And that's where we're in here. with diversity in terms of humanity is knowing that nothing needs to be hushed anymore. You have now. The next move, of course, is the transgender step. And, uh, which we were fortunate that we have a hospital nearby that is doing that, Um, that is feminization of the skull so that somebody who goes [00:25:00] as male most of the time tend to be straight male going in and getting transferred into the female. Um, they've done a whole series of steps before they come to this hospital and then to get from male to female, they grind the skull and the jaw bones get adjusted and cut. And and that's another step again to following your heart. And that is, I think, if there is any one lesson in your life, it is. Follow your heart. [00:25:30] Our logic that takes one on one is two. But if you listen to your heart and it says yes, but something isn't totally right that you connect to a wisdom out there that, uh, tells you back off. It's OK not to make a decision for a while. And I think this is where we're getting more and more. There's a sensitivity now out there that is willing to look at the world as we live in a larger um, from a larger [00:26:00] perspective that allow us people to be who they are, and that includes being redneck or whatever. And just to see that we're coming all from different perspective. But the innate person is good and that comes from following your heart. You know, just listening to that inner voice and you get there where you need to be, you know, and you'll be happier and therefore [00:26:30] those that are around you will be happier. So it's if there's one thing what my granny told me, just I think that that, you know, follow your bliss, as a local American philosopher used to say.

IRN: 221
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_loud_radio.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003822
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089116
TITLE: Out Loud radio
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Noah Miller
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2000s; Noah Miller; Out Loud; San Francisco; United States of America; media; organisation; radio; teaching; youth
DATE: 1 July 2008
YEAR: 2008
LOCATION: San Francisco, San Francisco, United States of America
CONTEXT: In this podcast Noah Miller talks about the creation of Out Loud radio in San Francisco.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: This programme was recorded as part of a Winston Churchill Memorial Fellowship in June 2008. My name is Noah Miller, and I'm the director of Out Loud Radio in San Francisco, California and we are in San Francisco, California at cafe floor in the I know there's an accent on some of the signs that make it sound like Cafe Flo, but everybody here says Cafe Floor in San Francisco in the Castro District and the history [00:00:30] the history of out loud. Well, I started out loud radio about six years ago, in 2002, and, um, it was a time when I was trying to get into producing radio myself. And also when I was trying to connect with other folks in the gay community here because I had just come back from college and was sort of lonely and wanting to connect. So, uh, I, um, was volunteering with various community [00:01:00] organisations, and one of them was, um, the school that I had gone to when I was, uh, 11 or 12. Um, the Middle School in Berkeley, which has 6/7 and eighth graders, and I discovered that they had formed a Gay Straight Alliance Club A. So they were doing gay rights activism at the ages of 11 and 12 and 13. And this just completely blew my mind. And I thought that, Well, [00:01:30] you know, this is unique enough that maybe I could make a documentary about it. So I started visiting the school with my equipment and recording their meetings and their letter writing campaigns and their discussions about all the issues of the day. I can't remember exactly what it was at the moment, but, um, at some point, I just, um, began going [00:02:00] every week and became sort of like a regular there. And, um, I found myself one day needing to leave a bit early and decided to just hand my equipment over to, um, one of the kids, uh, to do some recording for me and give me. They gave them very minimal instructions about how to use it. And when I came back later, they had completely taken it and run with it [00:02:30] and had recorded their friends, did some interviews and gotten some material silly stuff, but also some really wonderful stuff that I never would have gotten from my more adult perspective. I mean, I was 23 at the time, but these are 11 year olds and an 11 year old talking to an 11 year old is much different from a 23 year old talking to an 11 year old. And, uh, that really helped spark the idea of [00:03:00] doing a queer Youth radio programme or, um, production, uh, group or some sort of thing. I got a small grant, I think $1000 and bought a little bit more equipment and, uh, made some flyers. Um, just up the street from here is a, uh, is the Lavender Youth Recreation and Information Centre A which is for young [00:03:30] LGBTQ to folks. And, um, we had our first meeting there in 2002. Um, I, uh, just, uh, five people who, uh, were intrigued by the idea of, uh, producing radio. And it's it's grown since then into something more formal, more oriented toward education. I guess six years later I'm less [00:04:00] able to claim that I'm a youth myself. I mean, along with the 16 year olds. But so now I'm more of a teacher, and, um, they really are the ones who are doing the work. And, uh, it's it's become something that it started out as something that I just was doing for fun and for, uh because I, I don't know, it was it was a lot for me. And [00:04:30] now it seems to be important to a lot of other folks, too. When you first started, did you have any, um, form of distribution or output for the material? No, Uh, it was all done in the spirit of, uh, Well, if we make something good, we'll we'll get it in there somehow. We'll get it out there somehow. A At about six or eight months after we started, Um, a A [00:05:00] woman came into one of our meetings who we had never seen before. And, um, said she was from, um, local pirate radio station. And, uh, uh, San Francisco Liberation Radio would be the perfect place for us to, uh, have a show. They were looking for, uh, community members to to participate. So, um, for about a year, we did have a weekly live show on San Francisco Liberation radio, and it was exhausting. [00:05:30] And I, uh, I, I don't think we're ready to go back to that. Even years later. I don't think we have. I mean, that was It's just such a completely different thing to produce prerecorded segments and live radio just completely different. Um, what we do now is we're We work for at least three months with each young person to produce a five minute piece, and, you know, and that's barely [00:06:00] enough. Um, so, uh, doing an hour long show or two hour? I can't remember. Two hours, maybe every week was crazy, but fun too. And, uh, So no, we didn't have any, um, distribution at the beginning. Uh, I guess I knew a couple of folks at National Public Radio and managed to get a little bit of our stuff on the air early on and, uh, made some connections with the local public [00:06:30] radio stations here. And that's really how we we got started. Can you talk a wee bit about, um what the response from, you know, the public radio stations and N PR was if you're looking, if your question really is about the content, um then there. I've never had any, um, negative reaction to the idea of what we're we're talking about. [00:07:00] Um, except when it you know, if it gets into sex at all, then you know there's a little bit of prudishness that comes up or concern about the, uh, FCC or I don't know, but, um, but, you know, in general, talking about, uh, gay youth issues is not it's not taboo. Um, the greater challenge is [00:07:30] just that there is a very limited amount of airspace for public radio. So we're competing with a lot of other people, and we're competing with with professionals. And so, you know, I'm I'm working with, uh, young folks who, um this is their first time producing something, and, uh, we try to help them make it as good as possible. Um, but there's still [00:08:00] sometimes some resistance to or, I don't know, just It's just a fact of life that we're competing with with folks who are really good at, um, serving. They know exactly what the system wants in terms of style and form. And I guess, um, my thought was I was just wondering, how receptive are those different stations to, uh, an independent body [00:08:30] contributing material. I think independent producers in general, um, have, um, are always struggling to get their work on, and once, uh, they've got their foot in the door. They are, really they they cling to that because, um, you know you once you've got a line in, uh, I think the especially, uh, N, PR, um, and and other national shows [00:09:00] and even at the local level, you know, um, they tend to always go back to the folks that they know. And, um So, um, there are There are a few independent producers who, uh, are almost de facto a part of the system now. And because their names are knownn, they're trusted. And if you're not in that small group, then, [00:09:30] uh, you do have a hard time getting heard or just, you know, above the fray. Um, it's tough. And I know that, you know, you spoke with folks at Youth Radio in Oakland, and that's one of the real successes that they've had is they've opened this channel, this direct channel to some of the major outlets, and, uh so they have a much easier time getting distributed. [00:10:00] I feel like that. We could be getting a lot more distribution if we just had a little more time to put into it. Uh, energy. Um, it's mostly a matter of building those relationships and understanding how to structure our our, um content. So that, uh, you know, it works within the formats that exist out there. Um, and, uh, there's [00:10:30] a We've had a lot of, uh, success. Easy, easy success with, um, the public radio exchange, which is an online marketplace for mostly, um, redistribution of, um existing, uh, content audio content. Um, so not usually it's not usually used by, uh, producers to get their stuff out there for the first time, But that's how we've been using. I mean, we've been maybe [00:11:00] broadcasting some of our stuff once on a local station and then putting it up on the public radio exchange. And, hey, it's it's in Alaska. It's in Nebraska. It's in Tennessee, and all we had to do was post it on this website, and we even get a little bit, you know, a few dollars for the licence. So for you in the programme is the main aim about the creation of the content rather than the distribution. Or is it about having an audience? Well, [00:11:30] um, the mission of the organisation is to both of those things. I mean, we really want to have an impact on the youth that we work with, and we want to have an impact on the people who the people out in the world who, uh, should be hearing from the youth that we work with. And, um, I think just the way it works out is that, uh first you focus on the youth [00:12:00] that you're working with. I mean, because that's they're in front of you. And that's that's the most obviously important thing is that we the you know, these teenagers come and they you know, you you see that you are making such a difference in their lives. Um and so, um, I think that even the distribution and the audience is very important, but it it comes second just practically in the in the work that we do. And so I [00:12:30] would love to have again more energy and more staff and and folks to devote to that so that we can carry out that part of our mission because I think it's equally important. But just in terms of how small we are, it's We focus on the youth first. Do you have any kind of Do you yourself have any kind of mentoring in terms of, uh, are you Are you modelling yourself on any other organisation or are you pretty much just finding your own way? Oh, I have a lot of mentors or I, [00:13:00] um, am stealing and copying from a lot of folks. Just people who I've worked with mostly nothing formal I. I haven't I haven't observed any organisations that are exactly like the one that I'm trying to build, But there are parts of what I'm trying to do that I'm taking from a lot of other people. There is, um there are a lot of different youth radio organisations in the country [00:13:30] and luckily, um, we have had a chance to come together at various conferences and meet each other. Um, it's really wonderful for the young folks and it's also really great for people like me who are trying to lead the programmes to see how other people are doing those. Um So, um, some of those folks who have been really helpful radio rookies in New York, um, have had some long conversations [00:14:00] with the folks there and they've I don't know, maybe it's mostly moral support, which is as important as anything else. The blunt youth radio project in Maine. Uh, there are a whole lot of of of projects out there, and I've I've I've gotten moral support from a lot of them just from meeting them And, um, and learned things about fundraising, for example. And, um, ethical questions [00:14:30] about, you know, uh, with, uh, an organisation that does have these two things that we focus on, uh, the youth development and the audience impact. How do we create a, uh, a compelling and, uh, media product that has a large impact and allowed the youth to completely own it and [00:15:00] produce it themselves? Um, I think that's, you know, one of the central questions of working in youth media. And so being able to talk to other folks about how they address that and being able to see a spectrum of different approaches to that is really helpful. And, you know, seeing where do I feel comfortable? Uh, working into that, Um, but other mentors, um I, uh, during the other half of my life I I work [00:15:30] with, um a, uh, an organisation called Sound Vision Productions, which, uh, makes uh, science documentaries, Um, and, uh puts them on national public radio and makes websites and so forth. And I've just learned a lot from about, uh uh, the financial side of things. And because it's a it's another small organisation, a staff of may, maybe five. [00:16:00] and, uh, so I've been involved in almost every part of it, which is really lucky for me. Um uh, So I've learned about financial, um, management somewhat and, uh, fundraising and, um, project management And, uh, and about the public radio system, which you know is it's its own little world, and you just have to learn how it works. [00:16:30] Um, that's the same with, um, another, uh, producer that I interned with right out of college. Um, Davia Nelson of the the Kitchen Sisters who's one of those folks who really has established herself as kind of part of the system. You know, anything that she does has a much larger chance of being actually on the air. So have been being able to observe her and see how she works and who she knows and who she talks to when [00:17:00] she needs to has a, you know, a particular need that's all. Been very helpful. Um, And then, um, the, uh, Lyric Lavender Youth Recreation Information Centre, which is where we held our first meeting. And also which has been our fiscal sponsor, which doesn't mean that they pay us, but it means that they kind of lend us their nonprofit status so that we can get grants. They've been wonderful. Uh, especially [00:17:30] in the last couple of years, the the executive director. There has really been a model of how to me. How do you be a director of a small organisation and again, the fundraising. I mean, I come back to fundraising a lot because that's the main major concern. Um, so I've been I've just tried to take support from wherever I could pretty much and have been lucky enough to find a lot of people who could give me [00:18:00] advice. Um, and as far as the youth education portion of it, I don't know how I just make that up. Yeah, just, um, touching on fundraising. What are the what are the key areas that funders like? What are the kind of key words that you drop in? Well, I've been told again and again that we really have the perfect trifecta of working with youth and working in media and, uh, working with query issues. [00:18:30] I mean, especially, I mean, in the Bay Area. There are a lot of, uh, individual, uh, individuals who are interested in funding all of those things. And so we've built up our base of community supporters, and, um, in general, there are, you know, there are foundations out there who are interested in those things, Um, especially youth and queer issues. So, um, [00:19:00] you know, depending on who if we're applying for a grant, Uh, depending on who they are and what their interests are, um, I'll either emphasise the youth development kind of health, uh, aspects of what we're doing, um, are the effective citizenship aspect. You know, we're really creating informed young people, potential leaders or just, [00:19:30] you know, effective citizens. And, uh or we emphasise, you know, the, um, the impact that we're having on our audience just so far. Hard to measure. But we can play it up anyway. You know, give me a paragraph, and I can do it. Are the grants and funds, Uh, are they, uh, did you have to apply on an annual basis or are they a bit more long term [00:20:00] and sustainable? Uh, so far, all of the grants that we've gotten have been, uh, one year grants, although I've stretched them out. Um, I just recently started getting some more substantial, uh, grant funding, which, with the possibility of, um, repeat funding in future years. So and we'll see where that goes. [00:20:30] If you were to very broadly break out your time during the week, how much would it be devoted to, like, kind of fundraising and how much to teaching and how much to kind of development? Uh, averaged over a year because, well, about half of the year, we're actually working directly with youth intensively, and, uh, the other half, we're recovering. So, um, uh, I mean, just because we're small and that's and that's why I [00:21:00] we I found that we just can't be doing the programme all of the time and sustain the organisation. So, um, the times that we are working with the youth, I would say we're spending 80% of our time just doing that, just working with the youth, the education and and production and, uh, 20% of the time on a longer term things whether that's fundraising or, [00:21:30] uh, we've been, you know, in the process of redesigning our website or these longer term things, Um, And during the time the off season, we're still working with the youth a little bit, Uh, maybe 10%. Just taking a couple of steps back. You were talking about the the the whole kind of, um, where you place the organisation in terms of ethics and youth development and ownership and all that kind of stuff. What was your answer to the [00:22:00] The question that you kind of posed? Well, um, I think it bothers me less. Now, Um, I feel like we found a place that I'm comfortable with, which is that the youth do they produce their own work? They choose, um, their subject. They choose how to go about it. Um, but we strongly [00:22:30] encourage them in certain directions. I mean, because we've just been we've been doing this for longer than them, and so we can see that certain things are gonna work out and certain things aren't, and we can We can say to them that, um you know, uh, I think that the general population might be curious about this particular question that you're not asking because it's so obvious to you Or, um, you know, maybe this particular thing is really [00:23:00] interesting to you, but let's just let's, uh, cut it down a little bit because I think it's something that a lot of people have heard about already. So we do give a lot of guidance, but ultimately it's their choice whether they want to take our suggestions or not. And so, um, you know, there are pieces that, uh, just aren't gonna be on, uh, national radio or even on a local station. Maybe we'll put them up on our website. But, um, [00:23:30] you know, just because they don't particularly conform to or they don't I don't know. They don't have exactly what it takes to to be taken to that white audience, but that's OK. Um, and, uh, I feel OK about, uh, having a lot of input into into the work because I feel like it's part of our mission. And I don't feel like I'm doing [00:24:00] it dishonestly feel like we are very honest about, you know, about these are suggestions, Um, and this is why we're suggesting that you've considered, uh, you know, this element in your piece or this direction? Uh, just talking about the the practicalities. Uh, you mentioned that, uh, you You work with someone for three months, and they produce a piece at the end of it. Can you just take me through? If I was, um, a youth coming into [00:24:30] your programme, what could I expect? You? You could expect a lot of work, and they never expect it to be as much work as it is. Um uh, the they start out, um, we the first couple of meetings. We, um, try to introduce them to the idea of what radio is because most of them have no idea. And don't I mean, don't listen to public [00:25:00] radio, any sort of feature or documentary? Kind of. I mean, it's totally foreign to them. Um, although that's there's a kind of a class difference there. The with. It's interesting that the the last few folks that we've been working with, um uh, come from, uh uh, I don't know. Better educated, maybe more economically higher class. And so they all a lot of them had listened to [00:25:30] public radio a lot and knew what they were doing. Um, So, uh, we give them a lot of listening assignments to orient themselves a little bit, and we try to encourage them to think about you know, what are things that were really cool about this, that you would like to copy, you know, techniques that you'd like to copy, and it takes. I mean, even after the three months, a lot of them haven't quite separated out content [00:26:00] and style or content and form. You know, I, I don't know. At 14 years old, some of them have a grasp of that. Some of them don't really, But, um, that's why we're there to help. So, um, once they get oriented after the first couple of weeks, they we start brainstorming about what subjects they would like to explore or try to find, uh, the stories in their own lives that, um, they want to [00:26:30] talk about or we think are fascinating. And often we have to really convince them that something that they just mentioned offhand is incredibly fascinating. Um, because they do live in their a separate world from the world that most, uh, that I and most public radio audience lives in from there. It just, [00:27:00] uh we work with them on a a production plan with, uh, Who are they gonna interview? What kind of information are they gonna get? What kind of sounds are they gonna get? Um, do they have kind of an overall idea of what the form of their piece will be? You know, they they're gonna have five minutes. Uh, and they usually go over a little bit, but in the last little crunch, But, um, it's, uh it's it's it's a matter. [00:27:30] It's kind of an iterative process after that of, um, bringing in what the what? They've gathered in the last week. And, um, sometimes with one of us or one of our volunteer instructors. I mean, it's, uh, me and assistant director and then, um to or so other volunteers who come in and help kind of be mentors Editors, Uh, you know, just help them move forward. [00:28:00] Uh, actually, a lot of it is just, um calling them up every day or texting them and saying, Did you do that interview that you said you were going to do? Um oh, that's a lot of the work. Uh, and uh, some of the editing happens kind of in a collective group way too. And you can play back some tape and or, uh, read a script or aloud and, uh, get the other teams feedback [00:28:30] to, um and it always ends up. I mean, most of the production ends up happening in the last week. It's just always how it works because they finally understand that. Oh, really? We have to do something. But what helps is that, um, we have a, uh, a premier and graduation ceremony at the end. Um, so they're presenting their work to all of their, [00:29:00] uh, their friends and whoever they like to invite, often family members. I mean, um, some of the young folks we work with, uh aren't particularly out or to their families, but a lot of them are. I mean, they're doing a media project that's talking about, uh, GL BT issues. Um, so most of them [00:29:30] are fairly comfortable with. And we also have, um, a number of allies, a number of straight youth who are participating, too, And, uh so anyway, that at the at the premiere, they present their work, and they have to get it in some sort of shape for that. So how many go through the course at any one time? Only about five, or [00:30:00] or so, Um, that's I mean, we've tried doing more, and with the size of our staff and the kind of intensity of the process, you find that we need to keep it small. And, um, we could, uh I think there there's probably demand for somewhat more. Um, if we had the staff to do it, [00:30:30] um, but it's been working out fine. And do they work as individuals, or are they, uh, working as groups? Well, like you said that they do, they're working on individual projects, but they have some group feedback into each other's work. And something that has started happening more is that I really like, is that they've, for example, one of them, uh, needed to do an interview, uh, with, [00:31:00] uh, a a woman who lived in San Jose, which is about what is it 50 miles south of here? Not particularly easy to get to on public transit. But one of our youth was actually coming from there every weekend to participate, and so they did a double ender. He acted as the stringer and went out and, uh, handled the microphone while she interviewed the woman over the [00:31:30] phone. And, um so they have started to kind of help each other out in that way, which I think is cool and also gives them some idea of what you know, the professional skills that they're developing. They can. They can. That's a marketable skill that they're getting. So what kind of changes do you see over the three month period for the the people that go through? Well, that's my favourite part. Uh, I see, um, [00:32:00] a lot of people coming in somewhat shy or just not particularly confident and leaving with a much greater degree of of of confidence and being a bit more outgoing. Um, part of it, I'm sure I'm just I mean, things change so fast when you're a teenager that I'm sure [00:32:30] part of it is I'm just observing the growth that they're going through. But that's I'm you know, it's wonderful to take part in that and to encourage them in that direction. And, you know, just the fact that we say, Yes, you can talk to the mayor or you can talk to this famous singer or whatever. You know, that really gives them a lot of because they said no. No, of course they won't answer my call. But then we said, OK, why? Well, have you tried calling them yet? And, uh, you know, then they [00:33:00] just are so excited when they do get the call back, and then they're terrified to go in and do the interview, and then they come back and they said that was so easy. And they and you know, that really changes things for them. It changes their outlook on what? What's possible to do. So I love seeing that that change. Um, I, I see. Also, uh, a change in how they perceive [00:33:30] this is more subtle. But, uh, how they perceive their own stories or lives Because, uh, as I was saying, often we have to point out to them that, um, some aspect of their life or things that they've mentioned, um is kind of amazing or unusual. Or, you know, people would love to hear about, uh [00:34:00] and they because they're living it. They don't really realise that. So I think it changes them in some ways to have that pointed out. And over the six years has it changed? Duke? Um, well, yes, I it has, Uh, because when I started the project, um, it was all sort of a lark. And, [00:34:30] um, at a certain point about two years ago, I heard from, um it was just in ca casual conversation. I. I was talking to a couple of my young folks who were applying to colleges about how their applications were going, and they said, Oh, the I hate these essay questions. I said, What are the essay questions about? They said, Oh, well, what was the one of the questions was what is the most important thing in [00:35:00] your life? And he said, Well, what are you writing about? And they said, Oh, I'm writing about it out loud And you know, so I that in fact kind of scared me because I thought, Oh, my God, I have this responsibility. If this is the, you know, really that important to them, then it can't just be totally, you know, my play thing. It's something. It's for real. So it's changed me in that way. Uh, [00:35:30] it's given me a lot more understanding of, um, the queer community. It's given me an education in how to just get things done. It's exhausted me, but it's but it's absolutely worth it. You started out by asking about, um, how some something that's small and that's being spearheaded by one person can, uh, get [00:36:00] to a point of sustainability and just not fall apart after a couple of years when that one person moves on, Uh, I, I think that we're coming to a point where that, you know, may be tested with my project. Um, I think there are some universal things that can be said about that probably that would apply in the United States and New Zealand. Um, and that does have to do with human nature and making sure that you have the support that you need and that you don't [00:36:30] burn yourself out. I mean, one of the things that I've been learning or trying to learn just recently is that, um there are people around me who really would be willing to shoulder some of this burden. Um, and I don't have to do it all myself. I can distribute it. Um, especially I. I guess it. But also that it takes time just for something to take root. [00:37:00] And, um, you know, maybe it it It's a few years before people are willing to to to to jump in because they see that you know, this this thing has established itself. It's real. It's it's not going away. It's not just a flash in the pan, Um, but I think there are also maybe some things that are less universal. I think you know, a lot of what I've learned about in the last six years has [00:37:30] to do with the intricacies of the United States media system and the and funding systems here. And I'm not sure if they exactly apply. I mean fundraising in San Francisco, you know, from all the people that you've seen over Gay Pride Weekend, uh, probably is different from fundraising in Wellington, where things are much smaller. I mean, I think some things may be much easier to do in [00:38:00] a community that's more tight knit, and some things may be harder. Uh, you know, good luck to anybody who's who's trying to start a small project and make it sustainable, and it's very hard. But, um, the key ingredient is is, uh, really believing in it and and finding other people who believe in it with you.

IRN: 218
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_bay.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003823
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089117
TITLE: Out in the Bay
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Eric Jansen
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2000s; Eric Jansen; Out in the Bay; San Francisco; United States of America; media; radio
DATE: 26 June 2008
YEAR: 2008
LOCATION: San Francisco, San Francisco, United States of America
CONTEXT: In this podcast Eric Jansen talks about Out in the Bay - a weekly queer radio show in San Francisco.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: This programme was recorded as part of a Winston Churchill Memorial Fellowship in June 2008. My name's Eric Jansen. I'm the co host and co producer of Out on the Bay Radio. My fellow producer is Marilyn Pittman, and, um, we're sitting in Cafe Floor in Cafe. You know, Castro's gay neighbourhood, which is you can hear the construction noise outside. Everybody's getting ready for gay pride. They better hurry up and finish because we only got two days left. The idea for out in the Bay came from when I was previously [00:00:30] a producer for a mainstream talk radio show in town, which was probably the most popular show on public radio in the Bay Area called Forum. And as a producer there, I got experience lining up guests and topics and thought, Why isn't there a gay show like this? And there should be one in the Bay Area. There was nothing like it. So I put together this proposal and approached KQED about doing that, and they weren't receptive to the idea that was probably six or seven years ago, and I shopped up to the other station, [00:01:00] KELW, which we're on now, and They also at that time said no. Um, but, you know, the timing wasn't right. And what else? What are we going to drop to put that in? That was kind of their rationale. And that was right. After 2001, the Twin towers fell down. And, you know, nobody wanted to think of anything new at that point, and I just sort of let it go for a little while. And then one of the station announcers, David La Tuli. Um, I met him through the gay running club and he said that there was a 15 minute hole that had opened because some producer [00:01:30] of some 15 minute science show had stopped doing it or was going to take a hiatus for a while. So it was a chance to propose this programme. So David and I proposed it together, and, um, and they accepted it. And we did it for, uh, I don't know, three or four months and they liked what we were doing and they said, OK, we'll give you half an hour now. And, um, that's That's the That's the start of it. And after another year or so, a little less than a year. They They started repeating it on Sunday. So now we're on twice a week. Um, and it's been on for 3. 5 years. Now, can you tell me a wee bit about how [00:02:00] you, uh, pitch shows to those stations? Uh, what what kind of criteria do they use to to do their programming? And how do you pitch something like this? I honestly don't know how they choose their programming priorities. In the case of KQED, the I would say it's fairly rare that they try new programmes at all because they're fairly established. They put they air mostly NPR [00:02:30] programmes. They do have a pretty big national excuse me locally produced news programmes, and they have a a show called, um, the California Report, which is about statewide news that gets fed to all the statewide stations. And for a while just before I proposed out in the Bay to them, they were doing a show called Pacific Rim, which is about, uh, Pacific time. But it was about Pacific Rim issues, you know, Asian countries and, uh, their inner how they relate with West Coast US, um, stuff. [00:03:00] So they do do some local programmes. But how they make those decisions? I, I honestly don't know. They have to probably consider you know who's going to pay for it. Do they have a sponsor for it? Um, what kind of an audience will they have? And at that time, they didn't want to take a risk. I mean, they kind of told me they didn't want to take a risk on a new programme about gay issues. Um, which surprised me that even here in the Bay Area, they would they would say that. So with KALW again, this is a couple of years after, as I think, as gay issues got more popular [00:03:30] and in the mainstream media throughout and KALW, I think, is a little bit more experimental in their programming to begin with, they were more receptive to the idea. Now I also think that it's personal connections make a huge difference. I don't think I would have even, well, I take that back. I did approach them previously, but once I had somebody who was kind of already had an in at the station, it became much more smooth to just hand it over and see what they said. So the proposal was really basic. It was just saying, Here's [00:04:00] what we're going to do Here's the kind of you know we want to have a mix of public affairs and entertainment and, you know, interesting shows. We want to talk to people about their lives and have the voices of gay and lesbian people on the air, and and they're telling their stories in their own words. And because they had an opening for it, they were receptive to it. If they didn't have one, they probably would have said, Well, what are we going to dump to make room for this programme? So it's It's a I can't offer any specific advice. I don't think on how to do [00:04:30] that. If it wasn't those two stations, is there anywhere else in San Fran? You could You could pitch this idea. Um, I don't know. I I don't I don't There are Actually there are many smaller public stations. Um, Cala and Berkeley is the station that's affiliated with the University of California. So they probably would have been receptive to something like that. KPF maybe, But again, KP FA. [00:05:00] I think they have such a breadth of programming. And so many people want to be on that station. They probably would have a similar response. If if you can find somebody who if you can figure out what will drop to put your show on, you know, maybe we'll consider it. Uh, so probably wasn't a realistic alternative. There are a couple of other local stations that might consider something like that. But I didn't approach them. Um, I don't know if I would have or not. Honestly, when [00:05:30] you're pitching to these stations, is there an obligation on your part to pay for air time or find sponsorship? Uh, no. Um, in both the case of KQED and KALW. Uh, well, KALW certainly currently is. They provide the air time because they want the programming. Uh, KQED might be. Might have been different in KQE DS case because they're sort of more. Um, I would say more business. They're more of a big business. They [00:06:00] would probably want some, uh, assurance that there would be some sponsorship money coming in. I wouldn't have decided to pay for the time, but they would want that time paid for somehow. And if I was to able to help them identify a potential sponsor that would probably, um, make it go. That would probably be more likely to consider it. I don't know how the smaller public stations work here. I assume that most of them are. Most of their programming is produced by by volunteers. So again they wouldn't expect I wouldn't have to pay for air time. But [00:06:30] they would not pay me any money to do it. And I also think that on some of the smaller stations, like the Cal station I mentioned, and there's one affiliated with the University of San Francisco here, they probably would not accept sponsorship programme with the with the commercial sponsor attached to it. So I that's probably one of the reasons I wouldn't approach them is because I at some point would like to be paid for the work I'm doing, and so I wouldn't want it on a station that I don't think we're going to get any that that would allow us to have [00:07:00] a sponsor, an underwriter, and I should say, by the way, that when I say sponsor on a on a public station in the United States, you're not allowed to. There's very strict rules about what you're allowed to say. So it can't be like a commercial where you're saying, you know, come on down to Joe's for the weekly Blue Plate special for 795. But you can say Joe's Diner proudly serving the Castro community, and you can't say any endorsement. You can't say any prices. You can't have a weekly special. [00:07:30] You can't even say Call this phone number, but you can say more information is available at and then give the phone number. You just can't have a call to action, so it's very specific about what you can and can't say. So that's why advertisers or sponsors are sometimes reluctant to do it because they don't know what they're going to get back for it. And if they and this is, it's primarily if they want to build their name, if they want to build their image, their community image like I think a foundation like Wells Fargo Bank has a foundation that they may want to sponsor a show like this [00:08:00] because it shows that they're involved in the community. So it's good for their their branding and their image. But you can't say. You know, they wouldn't be able to say, come on down and open a new checking account. So in terms of, uh, the programme looking for sponsorship. Have you put together any kind of sponsorship package? We do have one. It's, uh, kind of rough. We're trying to finalise it, but, um, we have a sponsorship package that basically says for X amount of money. Um, you get, uh, 15 seconds, Uh, 15 2nd [00:08:30] announcement or acknowledgement every week. Um, you know, brought to you by golds Gym or, um, out in the bay is underwritten in part by a generous grant from golds gym. Or you can pump every day. And don't forget about the steam room. Now, I don't know if I can say that or not. Gold's gym in its infamous steam room. I'm a member there. Did I answer your question? Yeah. II, I guess. How have you, um, how proactively, I guess. Have you been seeking sponsorship and [00:09:00] and how's that gone? We haven't been very proactive yet, and that's what we need to do. I mean, that's our next job early is that we're going to be doing a little bit of REBROADCASTING some past shows this summer so that we can concentrate on this more. We need to get that sponsorship package finished, and we need to get it out there and go to various businesses and foundations and say, Here's what we're doing And we'd like your support and we do have a sense that there is support out there. I've talked to several people informally, and they've expressed some interest. So now it's up to me to just follow up [00:09:30] and not be bashful about saying This is the budget we have. And this is the amount of money we need and be prepared to hear no from 20 people before one person says, Maybe so. Can you talk a wee bit about, um, the initial set up of the the the the programme, You know, the the kind of formatting of of what you wanted to achieve, uh, how how people reacted to it, Because, I mean, um, you you were saying earlier how this is, like one of the only, um, GL BT programmes in the Bay area. Um, how was it? How was [00:10:00] it received? I think it's received really well. I'm actually quite surprised that When I go out to some sort of public event that's not in the gay community, I'll run into people, you know. They ask what I do, and I'll tell them about the show. And I'm surprised how many people say, Oh, I've I've heard that show And so I know that there's actually quite a large, straight audience out there, and that doesn't surprise me because we're on a public station, which is probably the listenership is probably mostly left of centre, though. They are liberal people who live in the Bay Area, and our show is only a half hour, [00:10:30] twice a week, but just a half an hour over that whole time that people just happen to be listening. They happen to be driving. They happen to be washing their dishes, and they got the show on in the background, and I've been really impressed by the positive reaction. And then there's some, you know, within the gay community. First of all, let's face it, a lot of people don't listen to radio on a regular basis anymore, but those who do, once they've learned about the show, I think there's a little bit a there, probably are not as many gay listeners as straight listeners to the programme overall. But [00:11:00] I think there's a certain gay core that will be repeat listeners because it's something that they relate to, and so they look forward to hearing it. And and then we've also got some podcasts up now so people can go to our website and podcast on a weekly basis, and we know that people are doing that in Texas, and we've got people in other states who are have found out about it for some reason and are listening. So that's that's great. Um, I think you asked another question there about, uh, our initial ideas for how it set it up. So initially when we were only a 15 minute programme, you know, I realised [00:11:30] we weren't going to have a very good chance of getting people to come in live to the station to do an interview for only 15 minutes. Because the station is kind of a remote location. It's not right in downtown San Francisco, So we were pre producing more shows, and at that point I was doing more interviews like I even did a couple of interviews in my house, you know, I just had and which is actually a nice way to get an interview? It's very intimate. You just sit down on the couch with somebody like Go. Marga Gomez talked to her with her there, uh, talked with this guy who was a cop. Uh, he's into the leather scene and he's a San Francisco police [00:12:00] officer and he's very well known in the community. And I sort of talked to him about what's that like to be, you know, a cop in the leather and the people you patrol. And he he works in like the gang. He works for the gang Crime Task force. So he works in one of San Francisco's toughest African American neighbourhoods, and they mostly know that he's gay and, you know, it's not a problem. And he also talked about the fact that we have this, um uh, stereotype image that, like as if there aren't gay people within the black community. I mean, and so he's just, you know, he kind [00:12:30] of broke some of those stereotypes, and it was really refreshing to hear him talk about that. But anyway, that was done in my home and then I would edit it later, and that actually took a lot of time, like 10 hours to, like, talk to somebody for half an hour, 45 minutes and edit that down to the best 15 minutes. That takes a lot of time. So when we expanded to half an hour, Um, primarily now I do live interviews in the, you know, live on air People are also as the reputation of the show has grown, people are more willing to come that far, and, you know, it's not [00:13:00] like it's that far. It's a 15 minute drive, but they've got to commit a full hour to like getting there, being on the air and and getting back home afterwards, and they seem to It seems to go pretty well. Usually, I mean, I have only had one or two times when there's been someone who's been hard to get them to talk for the whole half hour. But you see, the time goes by really quickly, and occasionally I'll mix in a little bit of sound like frame line. The producers of the film festival were on a while ago, promoting the fact that they have DVD S available [00:13:30] so they had released Marlon Rigg's old landmark film Tongues Untied. And so I had some clips from the film that we were able to play during the show and have them sort of react to it and play off that. And so there's some There's some preproce elements, but, um, usually it's a live show now, and if I occasionally I will still we will still, and Maryland does more of the pre produced interviews than I do, we'll still occasionally go and interview people in advance and then edit it down. So we'll maybe [00:14:00] spend 40 minutes with them and edit that down to 30. And so you do get a little bit more concentration of the best stuff, and we can edit out our own mistakes, make ourselves look good and then look bad. Um, so she's done that with comedians, especially people who are, you know, they're in town, a book writer or I think they're called authors. A book writer, um, or a comedian or an actor or something like that. You know, she'll just go and interview them in their hotel room so they don't have to go to the station because they're more likely to get time with them if we make it as easy for them as possible. [00:14:30] And again, you can get a more intimate interview. Sometimes if it's not in the studio, I think because it's a you know, it's in a setting they're more comfortable with than you're just talking. Are there any underpinning themes to the kind of content and editorial direction you go in? Um, well, I think it's fair to say that you could say that we're advocacy journalists in the fact that we want to promote gay rights. I mean, there's no question that that's part of our agenda. And I think that some [00:15:00] more conservative journalists would say, Well, you know, if we're having a show about gay marriage, then we have to have the other side on and we have to have people opposed to gay marriage. But for example, it may be an extreme example, but I don't really think that's true because, you know, people know that's where we're coming from and our bias is clear and it's not like we're usually advocating for or against any particular political issue. But we are, for example, we do an interview with somebody who is working on that battle. And [00:15:30] so it's about them and their life, just as much as it is about the issue per se. Um, so So, yeah, I guess I would say that. That's one underpinning thing to it. And we're kind of, you know, we feel like that's a great thing, that we're sort of doing a cause based journalism. Can you talk a wee bit about the audience and who you're actually pitching the show at? I mean, is it a gay audience? Straight audience. The way I look at it, I just try to have a conversation that, uh, I think that [00:16:00] anybody would be interested in listening to. I know that we have a lot of straight listeners. As I said before, I know that we have a lot of gay listeners, so I'm hoping that it'll be interesting to any of those people. I mean, it is in the back of my mind a little bit that we occasionally might have to, like, do a quick little explanation for some kind of jargon that may be in the gay world. And other people don't. The UN gays, as we call them, don't quite get it necessarily. Like if I talked about Pacific rimming, Um, you know, not necessarily. Every straight person would know what that meant, [00:16:30] but, um, I think there are. See, I distracted myself. Now, I What was that question again? Um, no. So So And but you know, many times there are things we're talking about within the gay community, like the GB. If we could talk about, like, transgender issues, for example, we've done a few shows about specifically about transgender issues, and I know that in those cases, we're probably a lot of gay and lesbian people don't know much about that either. So even within the GLBT community, we're hoping that there's, um, interesting [00:17:00] things that people within the community are getting something out of it, too. They're learning about people they didn't necessarily know about. You know, lesbians are learning about gay man stuff and vice versa. Um, and that's that's what I I. So if I figure if if it's interesting to me, then hopefully it will be interesting to most of the listeners. One last example. I interviewed charro a couple of years ago, and Charles is not gay. I'm not saying she's not I'm not outing her, but, um, I just thought I have a chance to interview charro. I'm doing it. And if I [00:17:30] want to talk to her, then there's probably lots of gay boys out there who are infatuated with charro, too. So that's That was a good programming choice, I hope. What about? You can find that on our website. By the way, it's on the archives page charro. I'll make sure to get it up there before you get this up there. What about feedback from the audience? You know what? What kind of feedback do you get? We don't get a whole lot of direct feedback. We will occasionally get, uh, we get some emails once in a while. We've done maybe two or three call in shows in the whole time we've done the show. Um, [00:18:00] about right after the, uh, the whole gay wedding thing happened in 2004 the first time around. We did a call in show kind of about that issue, and I was really surprised. Obviously. Like I said, we have a left leaning, supportive, mostly straight audience, and some guy called in and he was very well meaning and, uh, but he said I didn't know gay people couldn't get married. And I'm like, What rock are you living under? But you know, so I know from that standpoint, we are educating people, [00:18:30] and, you know, like I said, he was very supportive, but it just like, you know, he just, uh where have you been? Um, so and then we did another call in show. Just, uh, just a month ago when the California Supreme Court made its decision about the mayor's decision. So we went for a full hour, took a lot of calls and, you know, again, mixed calls, gay and straight. But some of the straight people were obviously very supportive of gay rights, or they probably wouldn't have called in otherwise. Who knows? I mean, I thought maybe somebody would call in with some negative opinions, but they didn't. So, um, [00:19:00] so the reception we get from the show that the audience reaction is, I would say, generally positive we get You know, every once in a while, we'll get something like, you know, how could you have such a boring person on and you know, But you know, that's happened once or twice, or somebody will take exception with the way one of us interviews somebody. But, um, Marilyn likes that, she says. If she gets criticised, then she's provoked somebody, and that's a good thing. So why do you think that out in the bay is one of the only gay and lesbian shows in the Bay Area? Um, [00:19:30] that's a good question. I There is another show that I know of at least a couple of years ago. I don't know if it's still on. That was, um, specifically geared to arts and entertainment produced by the A guy who had it on the Cal UC Berkeley affiliated station. I don't know if that's still on. Uh, I sort of think that even in the Bay Area stations were kind of reluctant or squeamish to have a show that was just about gay issues until maybe three or four years ago when it became, um, [00:20:00] you know, when gay issues were much more in the mainstream media, even television shows. So I'm not sure, um, you know, I'm not sure what happened to change that. I think it was on our part. I think it was just a matter of timing, and now it's well received. But I'm sure it would have been. I would think it would have been well received, you know, five or 10 years ago. So why it wasn't happening then? I honestly don't know. There was previously a gay, somewhat similar gay programme on KPFA many years ago, which I believe started in the seventies or [00:20:30] eighties. So at that time it was probably really pushing. It was like, you know, KP FA was so kind of radical then, like to have a gay show on was just, like, perfect for them. But, you know, maybe as as gay rights became more prominent like, Why do we need a gay show anymore? Like it's almost, It's weird. It's a weird thing. It's like there's so much gay stuff going on here. Why do we need a radio programme about it? So it's not necessarily like an anti gay thing. It could be more like, Why do we need that? Because there's gay people talking about gay stuff all the time and all the media anyway, um, but it so I that may be [00:21:00] part of the reason that there aren't other gay specific programmes now There is a commercial station that just started up about 2, 2. 5 years ago that plays dance music, and they've got these gay gay team in the morning. And so it's a very they're definitely being right out there. They're going after the gay market, and they're serving that niche very well. I mean, um, a lot of people and they are very involved with the gay business community. For example, the Gay Chamber of Commerce. Um, and they've got this guy the bad Greg the [00:21:30] the Greg, the gay sportscaster who, at the end of his sports cast, he goes, If it's got, if they're playing with balls, I'm all over it. You know, he's got cute little lines like that, and they dish it up about entertainers and stuff. But it's kind of very it's more entertainment oriented and not usually very serious journalism. I would you know, that's my opinion, which is fine. There's no reason it should be. So you guys have been going for three years now. Uh, what have been the major challenges? Oh, dear, I don't know if I can say this. Well, it's, you know, there's tensions between me [00:22:00] and Maryland. There's tensions when you're producing a show for free and you're spending a lot of work on it. You know, there's some creative disagreements occasionally, and people we get frustrated. Honestly, we get frustrated with, um, how much work we're putting into it, and we're not getting any money back for it. And that's, uh, I think that's probably the biggest challenge is that the Bay Area is expensive to live in. And how much time can we put into this thing to, you know, to get it to the point where it's bringing in some money? Um, so that we're not [00:22:30] feeling like, you know, I don't can't won't be able to retire because, uh, because I've been spending all my time on this radio show instead of building up a bank account, um, you know, it's kind of weird to say that, but it's it's true. I. I would say That's the biggest challenge. Um, you know, occasionally there's a challenge like, Oh, what are we going to do next week? And we're scrambling and kind of at the last minute. But that doesn't happen very often because there's plenty of ideas as we get approached more and more now with authors. And, um, I think that might be a challenge right there. As time has gone on, [00:23:00] we've possibly be gotten a little bit lazy about, um, you know, I think we were doing more portraits of people earlier on, and now we've sort of fallen a little bit back into interviewing people who are, uh, not necessarily famous, but have, like authors, local authors, people who have done something in particular instead of just interesting people. And because I think finding the interesting people that just happen to be out there in the world, that's [00:23:30] a little harder to do. You have to really be out there and keep your eyes and ears open. Whereas, you know, once the publicist find out that we've got this station and they keep sending us books and, you know, you know, we'll look at the books and if they're interesting, we'll we'll interview them. But, um, you know, it's it does feel a little bit like, Are we losing? We have to keep track of Are we losing our original plan and being swayed into doing something because somebody else is pitching us? So that's a challenge But I wouldn't say it's a make or break challenge. And the original plan was, [00:24:00] uh, the original plan. I think I would say that the original plan was we wanted to get gay, lesbian and trans voices out on the air and have people hear our stories directly. Um, Maryland is very big on the fact that, you know, we see a lot of gay characters in movies and television, and we can read their books. There's plenty of gay authors out there whose books we can read, [00:24:30] but it's not very. We don't often hear other people telling their stories and audio Radio is a very can be a very intimate medium. And so it's important to us to have those voices on the air and to have people hear those those people in their own voices. One of the pieces I'm particularly proud of, that's that's on our website. Now it's featured is an interview, a two part interview that I did with um Del Martin and Phyllis Lyon. This is the 80 something year old, uh uh, lesbian [00:25:00] couple who have been together more than 50 years, and they started this, um, the US S first National Lesbian Organisation back in the 19 fifties, it was called the Daughters of and So they're really gay pioneers. Um, and they tell about, you know, I had did an interview with them in their kitchen just around the kitchen table, and they talked about what it was like to be lesbian in 1950 here in San Francisco and what it was like to be gay Then, too, because they had some gay friends. And that was the time when, you know, the police were [00:25:30] cracking down on gay bars. They were closing gay bars and having raids and things like that. And, you know, it's just not very many people who have that personal experience and to hear them talk about in their own own words and how they met each other and how one of them brought the other one out of the closet. And, uh, you know what it was like when they did a, uh, went bar hopping in the Castro, which was not a gay neighbourhood. Then it was just, uh it was called Eureka Valley. It was an Irish Catholic neighbourhood, but one of the bars, Twin Peaks, was there then, and uh, they said so We went to all these [00:26:00] bars and we had one drink in each bar. But when we got to twin Peaks, we had a mistake. And then and the the older ones like, yeah, that was our mistake. We broke our rule. We had two drinks there and they had been talking about lesbian stuff, you know, at the bar, I guess. And then they they had to go to the bathroom. So they went up to the women's bathroom, which is up was upstairs then, as it is now, and they both went in at the same time. And pretty soon someone was pounding on the door saying, What are you doing in their get out? And they got thrown out because they thought they were having sex in there or something. So, um, you know, it's just interesting to hear their the way they talk about [00:26:30] things. So it's It's a very that's what we're that's ideally what we're trying to do. Just get people's stories on the air. So if you want to hear about the the lesbian couple who was first married in San Francisco in 2004 and then again this past. In 2008, the mayor married them personally. Uh, they were the first ones out the gate this time, Um, their interview is, uh, from two years ago is up on our website. It's right on the front page. Um, so check it out. So three years down the track, um, where do you see the programme going in the future? [00:27:00] Well, we have had some interest from stations in other parts of the country. Um, again, that's another thing that we haven't pursued aggressively. But we want to sort of start putting it out there to see where else, Uh, we could possibly get it on the air. If we can get it on the air in some other areas, then we may have to change it a little bit and have it a little bit less San Francisco centric in its flavour. But I don't think it's a real drawback because stations would expect, you know, a gay programme to be coming from San Francisco. And as long as there's [00:27:30] plenty of New York programmes to talk about New York events, so I think we can I think we can do that. But once we If we can get on some more stations, we have a better chance of getting some sponsorship because, uh, a national sponsor would be more likely. An underwriter, I should say, would be more likely to want something that's on the air in several places. We We think we have somewhere between 10 and 20,000 listeners now, um so if you know if we get it to more stations, more listeners means underwriter would be more likely to go with us. The other thing that might happen is I could [00:28:00] see at some point expanding to an hour if we got sufficient funding. That was my original idea was for an hour long programme and and in an hour long format, I think I would be I would sort of see, like, two or three segments. Uh, a more serious interview segment, Um, perhaps less serious art segment, maybe some commentaries. Originally, Marilyn was doing some comedic commentaries when she first joined the programme. Um, so it would, you know, I. I can imagine a format like that being really fun. But that's, you know, that's you know, there's a lot of ifs there. If [00:28:30] we get some funding to support something like that. And it seems like at the time, should be, uh, you know, the time should be ripe for it. Can you ask listeners to do to pledge to to actually donate money? You mean, uh, we could We haven't yet. Um I know that, uh, one of the national programmes International programme called This Way out, which I'm sure you've heard of. They do ask listeners to send money, and they said a lot of their, um budget comes from from that. So, um yeah, we haven't [00:29:00] done that yet, but that's another thing we could do. And we may do that in terms of kind of structure. Is it primarily based around yourself and Marilyn? Um, are you looking at kind of broadening that out to get other people involved and to possibly take over from when you leave or when I mean, for instance, if you say OK, well, that's That's what I'm I'm not doing it anymore. The the programme is just gonna stop. Um, I haven't thought about that a whole lot. We have thought some about getting some other producers involved. [00:29:30] Uh, we specifically we're thinking that once we get some funding, and we can actually pay people to do some some stories to produce some pieces for us. That's would be a great way to get some people in. We have. I guess I could say that in a way. A part of our staff now is, uh, the folks who maintain our website, and they're not journalists per se, but they they do definitely devote some, um, time into having, you know, that's part of our That's part of our whole package. [00:30:00] I don't know how many people we have who go to our website. I know there are certainly some, um but So if we had some, and so at this point, they're basically volunteering to do that. And, uh, I'm also sure they're a commercial business. So if we actually got some money coming in on a regular basis, they'd probably want some of that, and that would be fine. I would like, want to share that with them. Um, but yeah. If we can get if we could get some people to volunteer or some producers paid or not paid to help us with production, we know [00:30:30] there's some other stations. Excuse me. Some other programmes at this at KALW, for example, that they have regular hosts. They're volunteers, but they have some volunteer producers and the producers help them produce lineup guests for programmes. And there's no reason we well, except that we want to control. Other than that, there's no reason that we shouldn't be able to find some producers who can help us, uh, line up guests for the show. So, uh, yeah, I may have to let go of that a little bit and let some other producers come in. Hey, if you're out there and you want to produce for us, let me know. Out on the bay at yahoo dot [00:31:00] com, Just email me.

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TITLE: Qtopia Christchurch - KAHA Youth Hui 2009
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VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 2000s; KAHA Youth Hui (2009); Out There! National Queer Youth Development Project; Qtopia (Christchurch); Tapu te Ranga Marae; Wai Ho; organisation; social; support; youth
DATE: 23 January 2009
YEAR: 2009
LOCATION: Tapu te Ranga Marae, 46C Rhine Street, Island Bay, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Wai Ho finds out more about the youth support group Qtopia.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So here we have someone from Utopia, which is a group in Christchurch here to have a yarn with us. Can you tell us a bit about utopia? Um, Utopia is a youth group that's sort of set up independently from schools. Um, we have a range of ages from 14 to 25. It's facilitated by a group of sort of seven core facilitators. Um, we are overlooked by a board, [00:00:30] and we also have supervision once a month. Um, it was basic. Yeah, The idea behind Utopia was basically set up at a time when it was a really crappy place for queer youth to be in schools. So we want. So how long has it been around? Um, has been around since, like the early nineties. In one form or another, um, it's had, you know, sort of several names. And as with any youth group or group, it's gone through peaks and troughs. But at [00:01:00] the moment, we've got about 50 people registered as members and maybe between 10 and 20 of those turn up to an event on a weekly basis. So you guys are based in Christchurch. There's a there's a stereotype about about the South Island and about Christchurch being really redneck and homophobic. How have you found? Is that true? How have you found it down there? Um, I think for the most part, Christchurch is the conservative [00:01:30] of all the main, the most conservative of all the main centres. Um, in saying that, you know, there are parts of it that are totally un homophobic. And then there are parts, you know that you just don't feel that safe. And, um but, yeah, there's still a lot of work to do, and I mean, Christchurch in general just isn't as diverse as Wellington or Auckland. So there's always gonna be those sorts of issues until we get the population up and get some more interesting people [00:02:00] in there. And did you grow up in Christchurch? And how did you find coming out? And, um yeah, speaking for me personally, school was quite I didn't feel safe coming out in school, so I waited until I was in my first year at Christchurch Polytech, Um and yeah, that was just a personal choice. And because, you know, growing up in Christchurch and knowing what the lay [00:02:30] of the land was, Yeah, it is quite a scary place at some times. And so you work with, um, a whole range of young people now who are, you know, queer or whatever has has that changed? How are they finding life now in school and with their families? I think what's, um, really heartening is that people who are coming along to Utopia are younger and younger and younger, and they're out with their maybe not at school, [00:03:00] but at least with their families, younger and younger and younger. So there's definitely, you know, headway being made and kind of changing people's attitudes to homophobia and those sorts of things. It's happening slowly but great. And how did you sleep last night? Lots of people say there's lots of snoring and talking. I, um, actually took a little blue pill and I was out like a light. [00:03:30] Thank you very much for talking to us and enjoy the rest of thanks. This audio was brought to you by out there. For more information, visit WWW dot out there dot org dot NZ.

IRN: 264
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/kaha_2009_north_canterbury.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003830
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089124
TITLE: North Canterbury - KAHA Youth Hui 2009
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Kerry Brown
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 2000s; KAHA Youth Hui (2009); Kerry Brown; North Canterbury; Out There! National Queer Youth Development Project; Tapu te Ranga Marae; Wai Ho; organisation; social; support; youth
DATE: 23 January 2009
YEAR: 2009
LOCATION: Tapu te Ranga Marae, 46C Rhine Street, Island Bay, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Wai Ho talks to Kerry Brown about the North Canterbury queer support group.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So here we have someone from North Canterbury telling us about, um, some of the problems when you have a limited dating pool within kind of, um I guess queer, queer communities, or that kind of thing was I was trying to make the comparison to, um the I call it syndrome. Where, um, like, um I guess that these people that are taking care of the kakapo have to, um, in order to get, um, [00:00:30] genetic diversity, which is, I guess, not something the queer community is really about. That that they sort of, um each female kakapo, um, will be, um, paired with, um, a male one in order to, um, produce as many genetically diverse eggs as possible so that other species can survive. But sometimes it feels like if you're in, um, um, if you're in these, like local, um, groups, um, can, [00:01:00] you know, cause trouble when you're, um, with you dating one friend and then the the, um, you know, that relationship can have its healthy ark or whatever, and it can be all good. But then the next person you, you know, fall in love with or whatever, um, as a friend, a mutual friend or and so is that kind of your experience in Christchurch or in North Canterbury that the people you know with and who are kind of out and young is a small pool or Yeah, well, um, I I [00:01:30] actually found it more in Wellington and Christchurch. It was a whole another story. Really. I wasn't I didn't really make myself available for groups like this. So that that's what's really awesome about being in Wellington. Um um, but still, you know, get groups and, like, clicking sort of groups, You sort of, um yeah, it can be, Um yeah, it can be not frustrating, but a bit nerve wracking sometimes, if you, you know? [00:02:00] Yeah, like, since I like, I think I notoriously, um, try to draw comparisons with the natural world. Thank you very much for your very funny. No worries. This audio was brought to you by out there. For more information, visit WWW dot out there dot org dot NZ.

IRN: 262
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/kaha_2009_nags.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003828
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089122
TITLE: NAGS Nelson - KAHA Youth Hui 2009
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Tabby Besley
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 2000s; FtM; KAHA Youth Hui (2009); Nayland Alliance of Gays and Straights (NAGS); Nelson; Out There! National Queer Youth Development Project; Tabby Besley; Tapu te Ranga Marae; Wai Ho; coming out; education; gender identity; organisation; school; social; support; trans; transgender; youth
DATE: 23 January 2009
YEAR: 2009
LOCATION: Tapu te Ranga Marae, 46C Rhine Street, Island Bay, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Wai Ho talks to Tabby Besley about NAGS in Nelson and an unidentified person talks about a workshop on sexuality and gender.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So here we have someone from nags tell us about nags and where Nags is and what nags is, um, Nags is nail and the lines of gaze and stripes, which is, uh, Alliance group in college in Nelson. And yeah. And how long have you been a part of that group? Um, 200 years since I started school. Really? And how how's that been? Is the school fine with it? And other school [00:00:30] people Fine with it. Yeah, There's heaps of support from the staff in the school. Like this past year. We've made a new banner was filled with signatures and we went around the school and got, like, heaps of signatures, especially from, like, the juniors and stuff. So it was really cool. And how are your family with it? Great. Um, my younger sister, she's year nine or year nine last year. And she's part of it, too. And my mom is on the staff, and she's really supportive. And so this is your Is this your first kind of big [00:01:00] queer meeting kind of thing? I went No. I went to the SS for Q in 2007, so that was really cool. And you've just come out of a session. What was What was your session? Um, it was about positive and negative messages about queer youth and gay people and stuff like that. And what were some of those messages? Pop quiz. Oh, I don't I don't know. Yeah. Did you find that you had to deal with [00:01:30] any positive and negative messages for you? Um, I think there's always gonna be negative, like, messages and things that go around school and stuff like that. But I don't really care about it. Just kind of laugh at them or come up with a cool come back. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So your school and your family have been really supportive. And have you Have you ever experienced anything negative? Um, not so much. No. Wow. That's fantastic. [00:02:00] Yeah. And how well did you sleep last night? Um, not too well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you very much for talking to us. Cool. So you've just come out of a session. Can you tell us a bit about that session? It was about sexuality and gender and the labels that we call ourselves and the labels that other people call us and So what are some of the so for someone who wouldn't know someone who's straight [00:02:30] and who isn't Trans? What would you tell them? Or what would they want to know? Elaborate on that, Um, just kind of They're like, Whoa, what What is that? I think a lot of the time we tend to stick with the labels that most people at least heard of, like the more diverse ones don't really seem to get us that far. So we'll stick with trainee Homo gay queer, hetero [00:03:00] Trans partner, that sort of thing. And usually they'll just ask us questions from there, and we can elaborate a bit more, but yeah, generally, the big labels are seem to be the ones that people understand a lot more, and there's kind of, um, a whole lot of mixed messages or a whole lot of information. But then a whole not a whole lot of information about trans people out there. How does that kind of impact on some of the identities of your young people and on you and that kind of thing, I think, [00:03:30] even within itself, the trans community is extremely diverse. But most people who have just seen things like Priscilla, Queen of the Desert have this really strong idea of that's what it is. And a lot of the time they don't even realise that there are FT MS out there and, you know, they just think we're all lesbians and it's really hard on our young people. Like I know a young guy who wants to transition, and he's just he's like I can't Everyone will just think I'm a drag queen and that's really hard and trying to challenge that, especially [00:04:00] with young people who just haven't had the exposure to the information. And it's just really hard for us trying to support him and say, It's OK, You can do what you need to do. But have that be OK with his peers as well? What are some of the problems or some of the limits? I guess around around gender stereotypes around what it's meant to be a man and what it's meant to be a woman. Um, it's just so binary like, You know, if you're a man, you are straight, you're masculine. You do certain things, [00:04:30] you act a certain way, and if you're a female, you're feminine, and it doesn't really leave room for things like being effeminate, being even really being queer within gender, like I know a trans guy who is a gay man and people don't think about that. They think if you want to be a man, this is what you want to be like. If you want to be a woman, this is what you want to be like. And even just within queer stuff and even queer Couples, you know which one's the man? Which one's the woman? This is how you're gonna act. So who's going to take it and who's going to give it? And it's just [00:05:00] ridiculous. But it's been that way for so long now. People just don't even really think about it, and it's actually quite tiring, constantly challenging it. But it's something that needs to be done, and we're seeing the results. It's just a really slow process. So what was something quite cool that came out of that session before, even for me, meeting so many diverse trans people, Um, I don't really hold any of those stereotypes, but just actually meeting such a wide range of people was really, really cool [00:05:30] for me, you know, the trans men, trans women, different sort of partners, different gendered partners. It was just totally awesome just knowing that they are out there and they're proud of who they are. Thank you very much. This audio was brought to you by out there. For more information, visit WWW dot out there dot org dot NZ.

IRN: 265
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/kaha_2009_extreme_taupo.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003831
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089125
TITLE: Extreme Taupo - KAHA Youth Hui 2009
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 2000s; Extreme Taupo; KAHA Youth Hui (2009); Out There! National Queer Youth Development Project; Tapu te Ranga Marae; Taupo; Wai Ho; organisation; social; support; youth
DATE: 23 January 2009
YEAR: 2009
LOCATION: Tapu te Ranga Marae, 46C Rhine Street, Island Bay, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Wai Ho talks to people from the peer support group Extreme Taupo.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Cool. So where have you come from? For this, Um and are you in a group up there? Uh, yeah, um, extreme is the name and you come up with five others or four. Sorry. And what? So is your group, um, in a in school group or out of school group or just, um, just in general, they just meet, um, between four and six or from 4 to 6, [00:00:30] and yeah, it's pretty good. Easy going. A lot of support. Just need more people. And what's been like with, you know, queer and trans and coming out. And, um well, there's not so much trends. There's quite a lot of gay people because I was in the, um, me and one of the other boys was in the paper for coming out about it. And it wasn't until we went to a concert later that week [00:01:00] that, um, over 25 chicks came up to me, and we're like, Oh, well, I'm surprised about the article in the paper, you know, but that they're still in the closet and doesn't don't really want to come out about it, which was a bit sad. What do you think? What makes it kind of hard to come out. Um, the fear, I suppose, about how your mom and dad are going to react or if you're still gonna have the friends or if they're gonna leave your side or [00:01:30] Yeah. And did you Did you struggle with any of that stuff? Um, no, not really. Um, I come out when I was about 12. Who? What did you say? Um, told my mom and dad. Mom, Um, I liked the school at school and my dad didn't really like it. He still doesn't like it very much being a daddy's girl, but he's still OK with it. Just doesn't like the whole kissy thing [00:02:00] and stuff in front of him. Um, yeah, I didn't find it hard at all. My some of my family don't like it, but quite frankly, I really don't care what they think. They're not the ones that's gonna be my partner. They're not the ones that's gonna have kids with me. They're not the ones that love me in that way or not that I know of. So yeah to So what would you say to someone in and, you know, scared to come out [00:02:30] or, um, don't be afraid of who you are. Really? If you I mean, if you're gay, if you're straight, if you're bi, if you're lesbian, If you're, um, anything who cares what people say or think about you if the outcome of it is bad? So what? We just have to face that because they're going to find out some time. And the way your parents should find out is from the horse's mouth. Not, you know, your friend or, you know, [00:03:00] your daughter is a lesbian. No. Through someone else through yourself. And yeah, just live it up. Well, you can. Yeah. So have you had have you ever had negative reactions? Uh, yeah, when I was at college, Um oh, don't go by her because she's a lesbian. She's gonna rape you. That's what they're all about. Um, and those same people that teased me at school because of my sexuality are now [00:03:30] struggling with their own. And I've always believed that people that pick on other people about their sexuality, uh, confused about their own sexuality. And I always believe that because they're either jealous about something or they want to go out with you because you know, they might be hooking up with another guy, and this guy comes down and gets jealous because they're holding hands or whatever, but yeah, yeah, And what have [00:04:00] been some real positive things, like, are you? You're real proud of who you are and everything and all bloody oath. I'm proud, And I always will be right through till I get put in the in the in the casket. But I don't really want to think about that yet, but, um, I guess the easiest part for me will be when I have kids. I'll understand if they turn out like me. I'm not gonna you know, um, disown them. I'm not gonna love them any less. Or just [00:04:30] Yeah, they'll still be my heart. So what message would you give? Um, I guess straight. Parents or straight teachers or other students about, you know, young people that are or queer or gay, lesbian, whatever. What's important for them to know? Um, just I guess you should just They should really understand on what teenagers these days are feeling, especially if they're gay [00:05:00] or it's stressful enough, you know, crying and then yelling at yourself like, Oh, how do I tell them? How do I You know, how do I do this? How do I do that? And, um, you just try to understand And just think of it as if you were gay or if you, you know, just see this chick walking down the street and got a nice ass or something. I mean, what would you do if that was you? You know you wouldn't. Yeah. And [00:05:30] you should love your kids for who they are, not what they're gonna do in their life. I mean, because the next day they might top themselves because of the reaction you gave them. And and if that happens, well, you're gonna regret it. You'd rather them be gay, lesbian or boy or whatever than having to bury your own child. So, do you know any instances of of young people have taken their lives or, [00:06:00] um, yeah, my friend. He told his parents when he was about 16 that he had this fancy for this guy. He was a drag and just fell in love with him instantly. Told his mom Mom, I'm gay if you don't like it. Then he told his dad his dad disowned him straight away. And they both kicked him out of home. Both of his parents. And yeah, he he just took off and jumped the bridge and took his own life. [00:06:30] There's heaps more, but yeah, but you've had a You've had a pretty pretty good experience of coming out and everything. Yeah, I've I've had pretty good experience. I. I just told Mum and Dad and my mom said, uh, OK, she was a bit and about it. Dad doesn't like it very much, but it wasn't that hard for me because I don't really care what other people think about me and I never will. Cool. And how are you funding the so far? [00:07:00] Um, it's good. It's got a mean party tonight, but we couldn't have a couple of boxes. I have to get up and sing along and yeah, it would be pretty cool. Go sing some songs. Cool. Thanks for talking to us. This audio was brought to you by out there. For more information, visit WWW dot out there dot org dot NZ.

IRN: 258
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/kaha_2009_alison_laurie.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003824
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089118
TITLE: Alison Laurie - KAHA Youth Hui 2009
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie; Elizabeth Kerekere
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2000s; Alison Laurie; Elizabeth Kerekere; KAHA Youth Hui (2009); Out There! National Queer Youth Development Project; Tapu te Ranga Marae; Wellington; activism; history; human rights; politics
DATE: 23 January 2009
YEAR: 2009
LOCATION: Tapu te Ranga Marae, 46C Rhine Street, Island Bay, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Elizabeth Kerekere introduces a queer history talk by Alison Laurie.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: For more information, visit WWW dot out there dot org dot NZ. Beautiful maiden, Handsome warrior and they they met, and their families weren't too happy about them getting together. And so I went and stayed with his friend out on the island in the middle of Lake, and they removed all the waka from around the whole town. [00:00:30] So hi could not travel over to see him. So she sat on what has become known as rock Commemorating that event. She sat there and thought, What can I do? And in the middle of the night, she swam out to because is often shown with the flute, and she followed the sound of that, and she swam in the night, freezing cold out to that island. And so as the story goes, the official story they got together it was beautiful. It is the beautiful love song the first Maori movie ever made [00:01:00] was about, and the first movie, actually, which had a Maori actor in it was about so It's a very, very famous story. What they didn't say is that when got to the island, she pretended to be a man to attract interest and when because there was a pressure always to, uh, get together to have your Children. So they did that. But they dabbled in other things, and when they were living together to coined the phrase I am dying [00:01:30] for love, for missing my And so his best friend eventually came to live with the both of them Because we know from wrote a lot of poetry and love songs to his male best friend. And this is where we find the word. Uh uh, two of our OLS and Smith both found that. So that term has become increasingly used. We have information from the 19 from the 17 [00:02:00] seventies and all through the 18 hundreds about people coming to this country and seeing same sex and both sex as common, absolutely accepted behaviour here. And so when we talk about our ancestors, even though they still were required to have Children once you did that, you could do whatever you like. Now I look back on that and I think then why was my father surprised when I came home and said I was lesbian? And I think why [00:02:30] when someone comes and says I like boys and girls, I can't choose where ancestors are going. Why just limit yourself to only those two and and I even think. And then I think about the grandparents looking at all their descendants and thinking, Where did we go wrong? You cannot all be straight. And and obviously there's a disconnect here because what happened, of course, [00:03:00] in the 18 forties is the colonisation of our country. Began in earnest, Uh, with the signing of the treaty, the treaty was an event and a legal kind of legal document. Uh, but it's the process of colonisation. So they bring in the missionaries. They bring in the things that say certain practises that would always target sexual practises. Always the first gotta go. And so it's a long road for our [00:03:30] people, then to, uh, come back to accept that are still part of who we are. And it's actually natural, and the straight ones are actually the ones that are a bit non-traditional. And so this is all by way of being a long winded introduction to Alison, our actual speaker for tonight. Uh, and now Alison Laurie, When I talk about people who leave a legacy and when it's so amazing to have these young people in the room is to remember all the things [00:04:00] that have happened before us before we were born, uh, before even I was born. And before that, For decades, a long, long time, people have been struggling for our rights on our behalf so that their Children and generations after could live a better life. And so I want to introduce, uh, Alison as and Cornish. She, I believe, invented or created a women's studies, lesbian studies, and now, gender studies. Uh, she was the first person [00:04:30] to do this in the whole of Australasia. She's legend around the world in terms of, uh, lesbian activists. A lot of people who have studied will have learned from Alison, and she's gonna pick up the story. So we had this huge influx of settlers coming into our country. Our people are being bombarded, and we're fighting for our land, our culture and our survival. And to you, I just put something in [00:05:00] front and like, Yeah, that's why. Thank you. You got a, um it's a great honour to, uh, to come here and speak with you today. Um, for me, you're the future, and so is that cat like, Wonderful. Thank you, puss. It's one of the familiar. [00:05:30] That's how to make an exit, People, Of course, once you know rebellious women, especially rebellious women who liked cats and and Yeah, And maybe if a cat, you know, spoke to you or when you were speaking in that way, that would be a sign, you know, that you were a witch and you'd be headed, uh, with a one way ticket, you know, to the state. Um and yes, it did happen. [00:06:00] Same sex attracted people. Uh, trends have always existed in every society forever. We know that. So why all the trouble? And there'd be a number of explanations to that. A lot of a lot of that, of course, is about power and control ways to, uh, ways that political different political authorities have wanted to [00:06:30] assert power and control. And and in many situations, we've been useful targets for them to build their oppressive movements, Uh, on a basis of ridding the world of us, uh, religions, which are another kind of organisation for power and control. And I don't mean spirituality, because that's something else. But many organised religions of every kind have made it their business to exterminate us [00:07:00] in one way or another. Um so those are some of those kinds of reasons Not every society has had, uh, those kinds of unpleasantness and and there there is no evidence at all that in Polynesia or in North America or South America before the advent of Europeans that there was any such problem as Elizabeth has shown. But sooner or later, you know, the invaders [00:07:30] come sailing in and they bring their laws and they bring their prejudices and they set it all up. If we go back a long way into almost kind of prehistory there, there are some of our most wonderful, uh, lesbian gay historians, people like John Boswell. And in fact, a whole generation of gay male historians died of AIDS. That's another terrible [00:08:00] thing. But John and John Boswell died of AIDS. Uh uh. He was, um, who wrote several very interesting books among them Uh uh, homosexuality, Christianity and social Tolerance. Very interesting book. And he says in there that there's evidence and he was a great learned scholar. Read many languages. He said they find evidence of, um, same sex unions, marriages. [00:08:30] If you like? Uh, certainly with, you know, rituals of some kind, Uh, among the Egyptians. Certainly. That's not unknown in Rome. In fact, Nero, uh, married a man at one point the dreaded Nero that, you know, fiddled while Rome burnt. Um, the Greeks had lots of same sex relationships. Um, both men and women. How people interpreted these relationships was probably different from from the ways we might do that today. Uh, but [00:09:00] there's certainly the evidence is there, Uh, and through all of those kinds of societies after the collapse of Rome, uh, we find similar patterns. Uh, we don't really find any. Um, you need great. Um, problem with it until you start getting according to Boswell until you get to the late Middle Ages. And this is because the the the single [00:09:30] event that changes everything and nothing is ever the same again as the as the great plague. The year of the Great Plague. The 40th. The plague in the 14th century changes everything in some countries. Two thirds of the population divis. Um, people don't have a germ theory of disease. They don't know how it's transmitted. They think God is punishing them. Um they become Christian by this point. Uh, in the monasteries of early modern Europe, Uh, Bos were found. They were, [00:10:00] um there were same sex unions between the monks. There were prayers and songs, uh, praising these kinds of relationships. Um, and one of the things and interesting. I'm glad the cat has spoken because at the moment the kids reminded me that one of the things one of the things that happened was because they started because they were so bewildered by [00:10:30] the death by the plague. They began, uh, persecuting. They looked for people who weren't practising Christianity. They they they targeted women and men who they said were witches. And one of the things that might condemn you as a witch was because you would have a lot of cats, and they killed cats because they said they were the familiar of the devil, so they killed millions of cats. Now, of course, they got an explosion of rats. And, of course, [00:11:00] bubonic plague is carried by the fleas that live on rats. So it in fact, exacerbated the situation. So more people died. Uh, so what they began to do there in the late middle Ages, was in searching their consciences about why God could be punishing them with the terrible disease they thought it must be because of the present people who weren't practising Christianity, for example, witches and Jews and also people committing sexual sins. So that's when they start looking in the Bible and they say, Ha, look, look, [00:11:30] You see, you're not supposed to have sex with the same sex, and you're not supposed to masturbate. So God bless the the punishing. So they developed this idea of a dreadful, punishing God that that just sits up there scrutinising you to catch you out. And once it's caught, you actually gonna be sent to punishment. So they develop a very nasty idea of a God which actually suits some people quite well, because it means that you can have a very controlling church [00:12:00] and very controlling bishops and priests and things if you do that. So the church changed really in those centuries, had began to have legislation against buggery and also against women lying together. But the main sin for women was any kind of gender transgression. Women in particular acting or aping men behaving like men. Um, so it's also about sex with women as it's a so some kind of transgression against [00:12:30] the social role. And the most famous of the trans Saints, of course, is Joan of A. And the reason she gets whizzed off to the stage. Um, because she refuses to take off her male clothing. And furthermore, she says, Saint Catherine and Saint Michael have said that I have to wear this suit of armour and lead an army, and I'm not taking it off. No, I'm not putting on my maids costume. So they said, Well, sorry about that. So off she went to [00:13:00] the state. But there's others. There are there are more friends who got, and that kind of transvestism actually is associated with earlier pagan religions and vice versa. Kinds of arrangements, Um, festival days where everybody cross dressed all kinds of things in the early pagan religions of Europe. Uh, but Christianity really wanted to step this kind of thing out. So you have the ecclesiastical courts which, uh, bring people up for them, [00:13:30] and we have some evidence, some records of some of that. The first law by the state taking over from the ecclesiastical courts is Henry, the eighth, 15 33. And that's the crucial year for legislation against any kind of well against buggery against sex between men. Women are ignored in that law. Um, Jane might say, What on earth would he be the AIDS be so worried about, you know, [00:14:00] guys screwing each other, But he wasn't. But it was an extremely useful law, because if you're taking over the church and becoming its head and you actually want excuses to raid monasteries and take their wealth, your armies and because you have a belief that the monasteries are full of guys screwing each other so you can rush in, put the soldiers in there, arrest a lot of them, take over their wealth and [00:14:30] their libraries close down the monasteries, and it works very well. So there appear to be political reasons for this kind of legislation. That law stays on the books in England, and there are similar laws in other parts of Europe, and hardly any countries have laws against women having sex together. And that's largely because most of the men in the church don't really believe it can be done, [00:15:00] and actually they have problems. Do they sit debating about whether or not uh how are you going to prove if analytical is taking place between two men? Is it enough to prove penetration alone? Or do you have to prove a mission? Serious discussion about this in some centuries? But with women, they're not sure. So often the women that you read the case that you read [00:15:30] about is they'll say, some woman who's got a an enlarged clitoris, which are probably intersex people. And so they'll get her and insist that she's been having sex with the devil and penetrating women with very large cli. And then there'll probably be another writer in the court. And then I saw her comment group that could play over the thank you. All these things are, [00:16:00] Yeah, so, um and yeah, so that's sort of the state of the law and the laws, The the it was the death penalty for for buggering but seldom applied because it was hard to prove. And in some of the accounts, for example, in uh, in some earlier times you get you get an account of people, uh, for example, a master who who's apprentice complains that that the master kept finding them and screwing [00:16:30] them, and the case is deferred, and he set set back to live with the master for another six months until the court meets again. So that's rather odd. John Grey is the historian who's looked at some of those cases. OK, so the laws were formed part of the 1960 the death penalty is, uh, is removed. Um, and it's these laws. That's the state of the law when, uh, this [00:17:00] comes through, uh, New Zealand. It's unclear whether the laws against homosexuality applied from 18 40 or whether they only applied from 18 58 which is the English Laws Act, which made it very clear that every law that was come to England in 18 40 applied to New Zealand. So that indicates to me, at any rate, that there might have been some difficulties between 18 40 18 58 as to whether or not, um, they could really [00:17:30] do much about it. But certainly they did after 18 58 and, uh, and as the century progresses, we get, uh, criminal convictions. And but with the passage of the, um, uh, Crimes Act in England, uh, in the 18 nineties, which was the law under which Oscar was convicted. You get amendment to that. And it says that any [00:18:00] sexual activity between men in public or in private will be punished by hard labour, etcetera. Oscar well is convicted of that law, and that law is an act in New Zealand. And that was, um, gave provided for, um, very lengthy Christmas sentences. Flogging, you know, very Christian, uh, and hard labour. And that was the, [00:18:30] you know, that was the state of affairs for a lot of the 20th century. Some reforms which happened removing, blocking, moving hard labour and so on. Um and so by the time we get to about 1961 which you get a big amendment of the crisis act, uh, you get, um, the first mention of women in New Zealand war, and that's to prohibit, um, sex between women over 21 and girls under 16. Uh, [00:19:00] and you might say, Well, that's right to protect young people. But the problem is, once you put it into law, you can play around with those ages, and then you can just say, Well, actually, we're going to criminalise the whole thing, So there is a danger that it's in the law At that point. Sentences at that point were seven years for men, mostly men got put in prison, a prison in New Plymouth. And from that time, um, you know, we all knew men who were entrapped and that really completely wrecked their lives. [00:19:30] Uh, I knew one guy who was, um he was entrapped in the sixties. He was a racing journalist. Uh, and, uh, worked for to digest. And when television began, he he did those first racing programmes and trapped in a toilet in the railway station, Um, went to prison, and of course, um after that was never allowed on a race course again, because you're not if you're a convicted criminal. So it was the end of his career, [00:20:00] so he, like many others, left New Zealand. So, actually, what we talk about a brain drain. We had a brain drain of many, many people for decades. People found it impossible to live here, and they didn't feel that anything could really be changed. And people who, um, in the post war period, you get the formation of early camp, uh, communities and the word that we use here was camp K a MP. [00:20:30] And it's a pun with camp camping. Yeah, probably. Um, stands for, um, known as male prostitute from police notebooks. Uh, at least that's the only origin that people have been able to find and came here from Australia. So influences into New Zealand come from Australia as well as from Britain, as well as from the United States, [00:21:00] not much from the United States before World War Two. With a whole lot of Americans here having Western recreation and more research is being done now on the kind of influences they brought with them, which was a pretty wild sex, um, for heterosexual and homosexual sex. And, um, certainly some people, uh, say that they think that New Zealanders did not [00:21:30] do a lot of horrible sex before the Americans came and introduced that as a very prevalent practise. I don't know how true that is or how you prove it, but should be interesting too. Anyway, um, there were a crowd. There were sort of visible people in the cities, uh, right from the beginning, and they certainly were in the country was full of people who managed somehow to live in couples managed somehow to to flip under [00:22:00] the dragnet and to live their lives easier for women because everyone would say, Oh, those two cops to women, you know, it's nice. They're keeping each other comfort because women don't have sex. So men do. Um, but the trouble, uh, about that, of course, is that, uh, and and the research that I've done, um, it's it was so difficult for women to earn an independent living. You can't live as a lesbian unless you [00:22:30] unless you're economically independent. So the liberation of lesbians is entirely tied to the economic, um, position of women. And if women can't earn a living, you can forget it. You could. I mean, you can Sure you can have an affair with the wife next door while you're both hiding from your husband. But you can't set up a household together or have a relationship or build a life together unless you can earn the dog [00:23:00] at that time. Um, so, men, um, you're going to be suspected of being queers. So there's some evidence that what some some men did in New Zealand and particularly in rural areas, was they pretended to be brothers. They shift to another area, get a farm together, pass themselves off as brothers, and then nobody would think anything of it. The other thing people did was these years again. They married each other and had LA marriages, which [00:23:30] sometimes not so happy. Because if that would also depend on, you know, some some, um, I know instances where some gay men became, actually quite, you know, forceful. And nobody's mind was gonna get off with women. I was like, But you are not going to. You were the mother of my Children. Can't have this unrestrained sex go on. The Children might see. [00:24:00] So there are differences between men and women because of the gender differences in our society and the different kinds of lives that men and women have had to lead. So, um, uh, from about the beginning of the 19 sixties, you get a phenomenon as the baby boom generation comes of age, and there are more young people than they have been before. And it's also a generation that has a strong sense of entitlement. [00:24:30] You know, people grow up in the shadow of the Second World War and are told that war was fought for you, you know, and things are quite good in New Zealand, there's free milk, the rules, you know, completely free education, Uh, from the cradle to the grave, if you want. It's a free health. You know, it's actually a much better deal than any of you who like, but this generation [00:25:00] have and there's full employment. So this generation has a sense of entitlement, and it's also more influence now from the United States because there's better communications. And there are radical changes happening there with the same generation. And also, of course, from Britain. Uh, with, uh, with some of the things that are happening there. And these are ideas about freedom, individual entitlement, liberty, um, and civil rights in the United States. And that's quite pertinent at the moment when we think of the [00:25:30] President Obama and some of the his harking back to, um, the legacy of Martin Luther King and the whole civil rights movement. And it's from that civil rights movement that is born the notion of, uh, those people who people became involved in that, especially what black people did. And then they came to their own situation. Women began to say, Well, it's really interesting here I am enrolling black voters in the Southern states of America, but actually I don't get [00:26:00] equal pay myself. And, uh, as a fact, um, the situation of women is really shitty. So women's aberration begins. And then a lot of, um, lesbians and gay men and bisexual people will be here to say, Well, yeah, and he there's laws against us and terrible things happening to us. So gay liberation happens. And these are movements which really start to promote change and which really overthrow the earlier ideas that people have held about [00:26:30] Same sex and, um, and trends. Um, and it's from this time and it's dated. Really, Uh, you know, Gang is said to have begun, you know, in 1969 in the Stonewall Bar in New York when, uh, the police yet again raided the bar. And this time we fought back, Um, including a big lot of, uh, dry queens and, um, [00:27:00] and put, uh, fought back. And this was an explosion throughout the world. Now, gay spread everywhere. Within within three years that come here 1972 begins gay at Ackland University by calling a meeting. It's called because she's been denied a visa to the United States because she's an acknowledged homosexual. And, of course, homosexuals were among the prohibited categories of people going to the states. Um [00:27:30] so meetings held and gala forms within six months. There are branches throughout the country, so Galib says Gay is proud. Gay is innocent. That's a really interesting statement which may not be meaningful to your generation, but for people who have been imprisoned, people who've been treated like shit and perverts people who have been despised by their families, people who have been fired [00:28:00] from their jobs, who had absolute no protection about anything and basically it internalised a lot of that like It's OK for me to be treated like this because really, I'm a worthless person. It's astonishing that suddenly there are people out on the street saying we are innocent, we've done nothing and gas trump and then the analysis And the theory goes further because gay liberation starts to say things which are radical even now, more radical than a lot of the uh statements [00:28:30] made by any of our current organisations. Gay liberation and subsequently lesbian feminism says we want to bring out the lesbian and gay man and everybody's head. We don't think there are just special people who do this. We think everybody chooses to doing that. And actually, what is really weird is heterosexuality. Why is he probably being forced into it? And why? Why are people trying something else? What's wrong with all these people [00:29:00] that have never tried it? And, of course, this is as we move into the seventies, you get, uh, and when people talk about the sixties very often, they mean the seventies, um so in the seventies is when a lot of these things start to happen. Uh, here. Um, from 1973 we we started the first lesbian organisation here, sister for hoop equality. Bizarre name, you might think. Well, you couldn't use that no newspaper would, because it's pornographic. [00:29:30] I personally went to the press in Christchurch and tried to make them. They wouldn't, I thought, um, because I was getting very agitated about them, you know, refusing my advertisement? Um, the, um so that was an acronym. She so that worked. And and we started the first magazine called the Circle. Um, gay men had organised someone earlier with, [00:30:00] uh, with the Dorian Society in 1962 largely a social organisation. But with the legal subcommittee of the Dorian Society in 1963 that was here in Wellington, the first premises were, uh, in street and that had several venues around Wellington. In fact, we've got a big project on at the moment uh, recording the stories of men who are involved with the society and of women who are involved with Club 41 a lesbian club which emerged out of she, [00:30:30] uh, and started 1974. And that was called 41 because it was at 41 Vivian Street. So these are the first beginnings of organisations, and soon, toward the end of the seventies, we get the national gay rights Coal, the NGRC, which the GRC, uh, was an umbrella organisation with, uh with over 30 affiliated kinds of lesbian gay organisations. [00:31:00] The only one of which still exists is Marlboro. Uh, the GRC starts very clear objectives about changing the law, but also changing attitudes. Um, and there was an uneasy relationship between the older the older, uh you know, uh, members of the various communities and younger people. Younger people [00:31:30] feel that it's more important to change attitudes, uh, than to simply change the law, whereas many older people feel Oh, if only we can just get that law changed, we'll just duck under the bed and no one will ever we won't bother people. We just we we are not different from you. We just want the law changed and we promise not to be in your face, you know, whereas, uh, younger people felt it was very important to be in your face now for many people. But I remember constructions where people would actually say to one [00:32:00] another, You know, this is sort of pre gay liberation, or around that time, you know, what would your worst night be be? You know, people would say, Oh, God, just imagine if you wake up in the morning and you know your name was in the newspaper saying that you were queer, you know, Um, but within a very short space of time, we had people out on the streets openly with placards saying Hi, mum, and really doing in your face stuff [00:32:30] and really committed to changing things and willing to make any kind of sacrifice. And there are people who have made fantastic sacrifices so that you could sit here today and I could name them, but their names won't mean anything to you. And it should because you've been deprived of the system. I'll give you one man's name. Jack Goodman. Jack spent Jack was an albino, so he had. He was minority [00:33:00] in many respects, uh, gay, from when he was very young, went overseas and got himself together. Came back in 1962 with a form the, uh, legal subcommittee of the Dorian Society and worked tirelessly from 1962 through the 1984 when he died. And he never saw homosexual law reform, but he fought for it. And when you look when you go through the the the archives, which are, uh, in the, uh, in [00:33:30] the National Library, the Archives of New Zealand, there's a big fat file of materials from Jack Woodland. We see every day looking in the newspapers, writing letters, writing letters to people, standing out there, taking all kinds of shit, you know, and just working his butt off. And so that's why you know, it didn't just come from nowhere. Liberation doesn't just happen. People don't say Oh, goodness me. I never realised you wanted equal pay. [00:34:00] Let me give it to you. Oh, goodness! I didn't realise that women wanted to clothes. Oh, dear me, We'll just change them all straight away. Gosh. Oh, look. Oh, dear me. We must just do that. It doesn't happen like that. You fight for it and you lose and you fight again and you go on and on and you don't give it up. And part of the rationale for [00:34:30] a lot of the people who fought and another one whose name I'll give you is Barry Neals, Extraordinary man. Uh, who also fought indefatigably who had parties at his house long before the Dorian began, was pleased when the Dorian began, because then they didn't have to have them. Everyone at their house, he lived at the top of Hay Street. He was part of the Kiwis. The Drake performers in World War Two. Uh, his partner was Paul McGill, and Paul went to prison for five years during World War Two as [00:35:00] a conscientious objector that takes courage and in the camps. And they kept them in the camps until 1946 until every man came back from overseas. Uh, in the country camps, there were lots of gay men, so they're a wonderful example. They were pacifists. They stood up for what they believed. And somebody like Gill, who who came from that kind of background fighting for homosexual law reform and gay rights was just another [00:35:30] step on that road for standing up for your beliefs and saying, I don't care what shit they throw at me. It's worth it. I'm not gonna be there. I'm not gonna be one of these people that, you know sits about calling up the bum of my employer, pleasing my parents, uh, pleasing people. People pleasers are not to be trusted, you know, um, because they'll sell you out every time, because in some way, they want to smooth the [00:36:00] path for themselves. So, um, commitment, commitment to a cause requires many other things of us. Anyway, to cut a very, very long history shorter. Um, homosexual law reform, uh, was finally achieved in 1986 after the most terrible campaign, A campaign where, uh, the opposition forces organised very strongly were funded from overseas from [00:36:30] all kinds of organisations connected to the American religious right, which, of course, was very politically active. They were very well funded And, um, the country was completely divided. Uh, they took a petition from door to door. They took it to workplaces. Um, they were there in the street with it against homosexual law reform. Uh, many people signed it themselves because people were frightened in their workplace. They were, if you don't sign this and then they went [00:37:00] home and talked themselves because they've done that as you would the many did you know. So there were. There's many things these people have on their consciences. I hate the Salvation Army. I've never given them a P since that day they took the petition. They might apologise, but they never actually made that good. And they never really understood what they did to us. The harm they cause and the pain they caused to desert people. Our and they still [00:37:30] Yeah, that's right. That's right. Don't give them any money. If you want to give to a charity, if you got things you want to give, you know, to a shop, give things to the hospice shop, buy things in the hospice shop, and then they They're good people. The Salvation Army are not. Yeah, the second part of the bill was lost. Um, but that came again in 1991 and we got that passage through in 1993. And that was [00:38:00] the addition of sexual orientation to the Human Rights Act, which means prevention of discrimination and employment and housing and goods and services doesn't mean people can't be bloody and nasty. And we haven't got any legislation against hate crimes, but at least that law will protect you, and you can take cases against it if you prepared to be out. Of course, you can't take cases if you, you know, are prepared to be out. That's a bit of a for. But at least that has laid the groundwork for subsequent [00:38:30] legislation which has occurred, you know, in this century, um, such as the Civil Civil Union legislation in 2004, such as the right now to, um uh to have the partner's name on birth certificates for Children, uh, and forms around adoption and these kinds of things. Not everything has been done. So I'll say that the all of this begins, really? Not even so much in [00:39:00] the political organising. But in the courage of the men and women and the others Who, um who kind of formed the basis of those first camp communities around Wellington, Auckland, Christchurch, Um, people who, uh, people who hung out in the in the British and little, uh, people who were prepared to be visible and out there got persecuted by the police. [00:39:30] But we had a sense of community and kept it going through those dark times. And from that basis, the political organisations could emerge as a new generation came with better education and a better sense of entitlement so that we are where we are today. But everything that you've got isn't you know, isn't set in concrete. But if you go like that so the price of this is eternal vigilance [00:40:00] and it's being prepared to say other people fought to give me his freedom to keep them, and I would fight to hand them off. Now the motto I went to on his the motto was Take the lies and hand it on. I think that's a very good motto. Take the light and hand it on. Don't bloody extinguish it. Don't say Oh well, you know, I've got it. So everything's fine. You have to preserve that flame and you have to make sure you can hand it off. And you must say the same thing that I and [00:40:30] others said when we would sit around. And that was a baby that's being born right now. And as we the baby being born, you know they're just shouting out right now, and some of them are going to be clear and the way they live their lives, what's there for them in 20 years time when they come to adulthood is up to you. What you do now, what you do now will make that world for them and make sure it's a bloody good world. Same. [00:41:00] This audio was brought to you by out there. For more information, visit WWW dot out there dot org dot NZ.

IRN: 263
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/kaha_2009_waikato_queer_youth.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003829
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089123
TITLE: Waikato Queer Youth - KAHA Youth Hui 2009
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 2000s; KAHA Youth Hui (2009); Out There! National Queer Youth Development Project; Tapu te Ranga Marae; Wai Ho; Waikato; Waikato Queer Youth; social; support; youth
DATE: 24 January 2009
YEAR: 2009
LOCATION: Tapu te Ranga Marae, 46C Rhine Street, Island Bay, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Wai Ho learns about the Waikato Queer Youth support group.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Yay! So tell us a little bit about yourself and where you are from. My name is Simon, and I'm from Hamilton way up in the middle of the North Island. And what group are you representing today? Today I represent Waikato Youth. Who? We just got our very first office for ourselves. So ya go gay? Yeah. And how are you finding this? Is this the first kind of big national thing you've been on or [00:00:30] you're a veteran? Um, I'm a veteran of the university scene. Um, I work with a group, and I've been to, uh, uniq conferences, which is a union of queer students associations. But this is the first queer, specifically queer youth that I've been to. And, um, I was a bit worried about, like, the sleeping patterns and stuff because I'm a weird one, but it's it's pretty cool. There's some loud people, but, uh, sleeping pills really help. [00:01:00] Totally. And you just came out of a session or a couple of sessions this morning. What? What have those sessions been like What? What? What have they been? Um, the 1st 10, gosh. What was it about? The first one was about identification of gay the differences between gays and straights like, um, certain names that are used to describe the queer community and terms that are used to describe the straight community. And it was a correlation of, um, names that you [00:01:30] had been called for being queer or identifying as queer. And, um, the second one was more focused on what? Um, which of us in the groups which each individual person does and which group they work for and support and what works and what doesn't for a queer youth group and also what are, like, real priorities for them as well. And that's Yeah, that's around it. And so you grew up in the Waikato? Yeah. All [00:02:00] 19 and years. Odd years. I've been there almost 20 years. Yeah. And how's that been? So you've been a few groups, and, um and so I was coming out. I had, um it was the way that I came out. Um, I. I told everyone I was by because it seemed to be an easier stepping ground. Um, but I was outed to both my parents on two separate occasions. Um, the first was at my mother's [00:02:30] brother's wedding. I was outed. Um, and I was also incredibly drunk, so that didn't help. And then my brother outed me to my father accidentally when he told my dad that I was in a queer relationship and that didn't go down very well, but, um, bridges have been built and mended, and they seem to be a bit more accepting of it. Now, um, coming out to my friends, I didn't come out at high school because I went to an all boys school, [00:03:00] which at the time, uh, was very homophobic. Um, there were a lot of slurs being put around there. And, you know, the worst thing that you could say to someone was calling them gay and I I it really hurt me. Um, when I had to study there, but, um, but now, uh, when I came out around 17, um, to a lot of my friends, I lost a lot of friends simply because they didn't want to know they didn't want to be friends with a gay guy. Um, whether it was because of their religious beliefs, their personal beliefs, or the belief [00:03:30] that just because I was a gay male that my male friends automatically assumed that I wanted to sleep with them, which wasn't the case. So, um, but yeah, um, Waikato is quite nice. Um, it certainly has its ups and downs. Um, groups like Hamilton Pride, Waikato, queer youth and, um, the work that I do really help, But, um, there's still, like anywhere. There's still a lot of homophobia. Um, you know, I am quite unique in my in how I present myself. And [00:04:00] I take pride in my sexuality. I get attacked for it quite often. Um, I get attacked. From whom or how? How are you? Um Well, when when I walk down the street, I get, um, people chucking beer cans at me from their cars, calling me a faggot. And, um, when I I was lining up for tickets once and I was sitting outside and a woman walked past and spat on me, and she said, Well, I you know, I know you're a dirty, filthy faggot, and I [00:04:30] don't believe I'm not advocating this, but I don't believe in putting up with abuse. So I abused her back. Um, I've had my car door urinated on because I'm gay. Um, but I promptly broke their back windscreen window. Um, it it's sort of things like that. I don't see why I should be treated any less of an individual simply because of what I do in the confines of a bedroom. And I also don't I also get frustrated [00:05:00] that two women on the street can, you know, kiss each other and not, You know, it's generally accepted. And also for men, it's, you know, a great thrill. But for two gay guys to do it as seen as perverse and dirty and all of this, there needs to be a quality between, um, between the straight community and the queer community. Um, and I find it very unfair. And at times it gets really upsetting that we're persecuted for it. Yeah. What is [00:05:30] what? What kind of advice or messages would you give to a young person? Um, yeah. I was going to homophobic boys school. What? What? Yeah, Um, try and talk to your counsellors counsellors to keep things confidential. So that's always a bonus. Look for support groups in your area or failing that, try services like outline which operate New Zealand wide, or try and find, um, friends somewhere. Um there are [00:06:00] groups like on Bebo and my space that, um, you know, look at queer youth. Look at them, um, and just generally get all the support you can, because I know being queer and being young is really difficult. And I know that for a lot of people, when you come out, it's a really hard decision and a hard process, I mean, for you and everyone that's related to you. And I know that it can be extremely detrimental to your mental health. So my best advice is get as much support as you can [00:06:30] if you need it. And, yeah, and and also choose when to come out. I mean, if you do go to a homophobic boys school or, you know, generally a religious school that may not be so accepting, maybe it's not best to come out at high school. Maybe it's best that you wait a while because, well, your sexuality may or may not be important to you. For me, my sexuality is very important, but my personal safety is first, so never ever put yourself into a compromising situation to [00:07:00] declare your sexuality always wait because you know there's plenty more years ahead and there's plenty more things that you will do. And hopefully you'll be in a more accepting environment. Cool. Thank you very much. Thank you. This audio was brought to you by out there. For more information, visit WWW dot out there dot org dot NZ.

IRN: 266
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/kaha_2009_day_3_reactions.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003832
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089126
TITLE: Reactions to day 3 of the KAHA 2009 Youth Hui
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Carl Greenwood
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 2000s; KAHA Youth Hui (2009); Out There! National Queer Youth Development Project; Tapu te Ranga Marae; Wai Ho; youth
DATE: 25 January 2009
YEAR: 2009
LOCATION: Tapu te Ranga Marae, 46C Rhine Street, Island Bay, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast hui participants reflect on the third day of the hui.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: That. So this is the third day of, um, national and at and we are in the kitchen. And this is the lovely Carl cooking some bacon and beans. Carl, how has all the food been going? We had a great crew here, and we've just knocked out some great food over the weekend. [00:00:30] And how how many people have you been cooking for? Each time we worked it out, we did it on about 130 to 150 for each meal. And you got a good deal on the food. Were people very supportive of of our? They were fantastic pack and save. And Kilburn came to the party and absolutely gave us a great deal. And we had good food. Thanks to them. Has been here for about six o'clock each morning, doing our food and everything. [00:01:00] So thank you very much, Karl. It's been an absolute pleasure. What a nice bunch to feed. So we're heading into the third day of kaha. What have been some of your highlights or, um, probably the the the performances last night? Yes. And how have you been finding the food? Mostly good. [00:01:30] And so whereabouts are you from? Christchurch. And so you hit home today. Great. Thank you very much. So you had a look at the performances that were in the variety show yesterday and and tell us a bit about some of the performances And, um, how it was and everything. Um, I found that there was a lot of talented young, queer young people, and I was surprised to see [00:02:00] so many getting up and just having a full blast and having fun. And, um, I enjoyed everything. Um, I was in the group. Um, yes. So I got pull them, um, as you do. Um, but that was awesome. Um, um is one of the songs that we sang in [00:02:30] Primary and intermediate. Though once I heard the song, I was like, Oh, OK, yeah, I know, I know. It. So was one of the highlights for you. And was there anything else that really stood out? Were you like, Yeah, um, everything stood out to me. I enjoy the, um, drag shows. Um, they were awesome. And they looked like your fing and [00:03:00] I mean, they were gorgeous and beautiful how they dressed. And I'm sure they must have taken so much time into doing all their makeup and getting themselves all beautiful so that they can be able to perform for everyone and have a mean as night choice. Thank you very much. So here we have Larissa, who's one of the people on the out there crew who organised. [00:03:30] Um, the National. We're on the last day. So it's home stretch people didn't get much sleep last night. How are you feeling? Um I'm feeling pretty good. I'm I'm still a little bit tired, but I'm really excited. It's been such an amazing weekend. And I'm just so stoked to have everybody here. This has been fantastic. So it's been a massive success. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, everything's pretty much gone to plan, And everybody seems like to be like they're all in the zone and having a good time. It's like some pretty good energy here. Um, yeah, it's awesome. Cool. [00:04:00] So there's lots of young people going home today. What? What does out there have for a whole bunch of them that you know when when they're not, when they're not on a big national queer you've got you've got some resources. Um, yeah, yeah. We've got a website that we're, um, hopefully gonna be launching in the next wee while, um called curious. Um, and so that's gonna be, um, a really awesome site. Um, for some of the young people to, um, get information on sexuality and gender. Um, but in the meantime, we've got the, um, curious tech service, [00:04:30] which we've set up where you can text and, um uh, keyword Curious to 3535 with any question that you've got on sexuality and gender and, um yeah, and we'll answer your questions. And also, people can sign up to queer youth updates as well. So yeah, that's really fantastic. We've got some. We've got some good stuff coming up soon. Cool. Thanks, Larissa. Thanks for organising such a fantastic and yeah, the resources sound really exciting. Awesome. Thanks. So here we have, [00:05:00] um, Elizabeth on the last day of National Youth Kilda, we've had an amazing, uh, we've had some great workshops, a lot of laughs and a lot of, uh connecting up with people and talking the We've come to the part of the Hui now where it's like, where do we go from here? We're going to look at Because it's exciting coming together. And now we have to go back to our real lives and where we might be the only one or there's three of [00:05:30] us and things may not be so flash at home, they might not be so flash at school. Uh, so now this part is like, OK, what what can we do about that? How can we support each other from around the country? How can out there, uh, be out there for those people? So yeah, Cool. Elizabeth has been the main person behind, um, this coming together for 2009. Thank you very much for all your hard work. And yeah, I've just been hearing things from all the kids, and they've all been [00:06:00] having a fantastic time, so thank you very much. Uh, Kilda, And obviously I can't do this without my team, particularly Hanna and Carl in the kitchen. Larisa who deal with the Training day and all our facilitators, all our house group leaders, people really Wellington came to the party. Uh, we have had lots and lots of volunteers and people helping out. So, um, Kilda, I think, uh, we can be really proud this audio was brought to you by out there. For more [00:06:30] information, visit WWW dot out there dot org dot NZ.

IRN: 259
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/kaha_2009_day_1_reactions.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003825
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089119
TITLE: Reactions to day 1 of the KAHA 2009 Youth Hui
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Mike Bryant
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 2000s; Bruce Stewart; KAHA Youth Hui (2009); Mike Bryant; Out There! National Queer Youth Development Project; Tapu te Ranga Marae; Wai Ho; history; youth
DATE: 23 January 2009
YEAR: 2009
LOCATION: Tapu te Ranga Marae, 46C Rhine Street, Island Bay, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast hui participants reflect on the first day of the hui.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So we've just finished. Um, our first kind of official day of there's about 100 young people staying over at How do you feel after that kind of massive marathon of speakers? What have you What was the cool stuff about it? It was a cool. I hadn't really heard much of the gay history of New Zealand before, so it was like a real eye opener that had that, um and also the stuff about, like, I knew that ancient cultures had, [00:00:30] um, gay people and transgender people and stuff. But to hear it like that, it was actually accepted. Like I didn't I hadn't realised the magnitude of how well accepted it was. So that was that was really cool to hear. I think that it was really great, as as an immigrant to this country to hear how well, how the different ways that the American history and the New Zealand history have overlapped. Um, till about the eighties, when New Zealand start doing better than America because we're nowhere near [00:01:00] the stuff that you got that that you have here and for me tonight. The also the really cool part was hearing from Bruce about the marae and about a lot of stuff that really, for me is a great connection as a Native American and and my people and and living on a it's a lot different than living on a reservation where you were forced to be by by the white man. And so, yeah, I think that was my favourite part of the night with the non queer part. And [00:01:30] what was it particularly like? Was there anything that kind of stuck in your head about New Zealand history that you didn't know about gay and lesbian stuff? Um, I guess I kind of knew it all a bit, But like, um, I think it was the details of it and the dates and like how kind of relatively recent, all of the stuff is like, I know that it is like just the last century, but it really brought it home that it was actually like we haven't had these rights for very long, like they are still really new, whereas other people have had it for centuries and centuries and centuries. [00:02:00] And, um, the stuff that wasn't New Zealand, but, um, having it pointed out that it was just like during the plague and like that that recently that the attitudes entirely changed because that's that's quite recent. Really. Like, I just always had it in my head as it always being that way, you know? And so that was really cool to Well, not cool, but, you know, just interesting to find that out. So, um, [00:02:30] are you guys all in the same house group together? Yeah. And and is this your first? Um, did you go to last year or two years ago to So this is your first never been to And how How have you found the first day? Um, the first day has been pretty good. It's been awesome. Like meeting new people from all around the country and seeing where they're from and what they bring and stuff. So, yeah. Where abouts are you from? I'm down from Auckland. Yeah. So yeah, no. So far it's been really good. Should be cool. [00:03:00] And how are you feeling? Have you sat on a before? Sorry. She's just eating her chocolate biscuit. And I asked her a question, and I haven't I've been on a for maybe, like, a whole day, but never stayed overnight, so This is like the first, and I've never had, like, a proper welcome like that. So it was really, really cool. It was awesome. And how are you feeling about sleeping in a room with about 50 other young queer people? I don't know. I've got [00:03:30] two really chatty boys next to me, so I don't think I'm gonna be doing much sleeping. They're already asking me, like every question in the sun. No, thank God. We'll see how it goes. Night one. Thank you. So, Mike, you've got you've got the resident cat here. Yeah, her name is Kitty. I've decided. And you this is the first time you've been on, like, a big, queer kind of camp thing. It is, Actually, it's probably the biggest queer [00:04:00] thing I've done. It's bigger than the ball, which is pretty big. And it's it's been so much fun. And how are you finding the first day? Intense. It's a lot more work than I actually thought it would be. The training day was exhausting, and my bum is very tender from sitting on the pews. Um, but it's been really interesting, and it's it's great, like I don't think I've ever had a hongi before, and so it's really and that was a bit unnerving. But it's really interesting to see sort of the Maori culture and how [00:04:30] it intertwines with the queer culture. And, yeah, it's just been a really interesting experience. And what's something you've kind of remembered from today or that stuck out from many of the speakers? Or, UM oh, there's been so much, um, probably just the way that our Maori were same sex and how the same sex history. It was there a lot. And it [00:05:00] was it was possibly a political thing that it was illegal because of Henry the eighth. I think that's the most interesting thing that I found out Cool. Thank you very much, Mike. You're very welcome, Hannah. This audio was brought to you by out there. For more information, visit WWW dot out there dot org dot NZ.

IRN: 476
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/dym_elizabeth_kerekere.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003911
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089205
TITLE: Elizabeth Kerekere - Decolonise Your Minds hui
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Elizabeth Kerekere
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Elizabeth Kerekere; Gisborne; People of Colour Decolonisation Hui; activism; arts; domestic violence; family; feminism; gender identity; lesbian; politics; religion; takatāpui; visual arts
DATE: 4 February 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Ponsonby Community Centre, 20 Ponsonby Terrace, Ponsonby, Auckland
CONTEXT: In this podcast Elizabeth gives a keynote presentation at the hui.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: We greet out this mother and our father sustenance for us all. Particularly whose body we live. Uh, we feel well And remember those who have passed away. And [00:00:30] as we grieve for their loss, we remember their life with joy. Uh, thank you so much for having me here to greet the people of this land. All of us who have come here today and the organisers have pulled it together with amazing attention to detail and thoughtfulness. Uh, [00:01:00] I hail from Gisborne on the East Coast. I as I said before, we moved down to Dunedin where I grew up. Uh, when I was about five, we always went back home. Uh, for 20 years, I spent living in Wellington and just moved back to home two years ago where I've been enrolled at, which is a Maori visual arts school. Uh, so when I originally [00:01:30] way invited me to be part of the and I went sweet ass and we which was awesome for those of us who were at it as it was weird, it was really cool. We were like 12 men in this little room. Beautiful Kai, as always killed to the cos Oh, my goodness. And this the thing about creating safe spaces. And so we acknowledge all of the different cultures that all of you have come from and the places of learning and the knowledge that all of you However much of that knowledge that [00:02:00] we have in our present lives, uh, that there's a lot of things so much, I believe it's in our blood. It's in who we are and how we present. And sometimes it takes many years, decades to learn how it is that you live your life, which is the way that your ancestors lived. And so greetings to all of you from, and all of your ancestors from all over the world. My speech, multiplicity splitting ourselves across cultures, families and communities. Uh, [00:02:30] I say this because, as I said before, I was brought up, I believe very schizophrenic kind of way. Another example. My mother was Catholic, persuaded my father that we should go to, uh, Catholic schools because they're the best ones. My father wouldn't let us go to church, and so we and he believed in the old mighty gods. And so I'm thankful for that. So we get this religious education every single day. Uh, but we've been home, and Dad talked to us about how do you make medicines from the Earth? So there are bits and pieces of me. He was an artist in [00:03:00] a so he didn't speak Maori. But the the areas of knowledge that he knew about that is what he taught us and and so for. And when I talk about multiple personalities, some people have a problem with that kind of terminology. That's fine. Some people call it compartmentalization, but as many of you and thank you so much for the many things you talked about and expressed today, especially when we say there's not a lot of places when we can say some of these things. And there's just [00:03:30] not many places where we can be all of the parts of ourselves who we are. And so I wanted to go through some of the things, um, and use my artwork. This is idea. I've shown her some of my commissions that I've been doing the last while and she said, Why don't use those So I, I haven't done this before, a bit of stretch for me, and so we'll just we'll just see how that rolls. And at the very least, once we put this up big, um, if you find me at all boring, then at least you can look at the pretty pictures. I'm hoping [00:04:00] to make this, you know, not boring. So I want to use myself as a bit of an example of trying to and as I say, got into politics. Probably when I was 12. 13, uh, to Maori women. We league as a junior member when I was 15, Got on my That was my first committee where I had a role as a and pretty much haven't been off them since. And so I I was really fortunate when I moved to Wellington that there was a couple of much older women from other different tribes [00:04:30] and they took me under their wing and they just kind of softened off the edges and and they used to one of my auntie minor a lot of edges, like and but my these aunties of mine, they would say, Elizabeth, you're a bridge. Be a bridge between And like, I do not want to be a bridge. I wanna bomb the bridge. Yeah, I wanna be able to stand on the side and say, No, [00:05:00] you cannot come on to the side and then please say so. So this and so I always say I am a Maori, but I have a pakeha mother, so I know how white people think. So a lot of these artworks are for a commission that I did for probation services in Gisborne. It's really important for me that my art work gets seen by Maori people. Fact is, they don't go to art galleries and museums. Uh, and so [00:05:30] this is a big section I did for the reception and all of the meeting rooms where offenders meet with the probation officers. Uh, and I've just finished, like last week. Like Thursday. Uh, the big commission for the Family Court New Family Court just opened in Gisborne, and I'm doing works for the, um in the courtroom themselves. And it's like how subversive when this Maori lesbian separatist is creating art works, putting them in your courtrooms. And but I just love because lots and lots of Maori people and the fact is in it's a lot [00:06:00] of my family. My partner works in probation, she goes, I need another one of your cousins today. Thanks. OK, so gonna break it down into sections. The first one I wanted to talk about was around spirituality. How we express that, how we're safe around that for myself. I do believe in the almighty gods. I feel really close to close to them. And when I'm doing my art work, I, I feel free to talk with them. And we're fortunate because that's something we were brought up feeling really natural about With my father, we talk to [00:06:30] our dead. We often, you know, our spirits about someone who just lost would wander through the house and we that stuff about interpreting our dreams. So we're very, very fortunate that that's something that was really normal for us. And so I I despite being brought up Catholic, Uh, I very clearly remember I wanted to be Catholic. I had a mad crush on this girl who ran the prayer group. So yeah, today I'm feeling a little bit Christian [00:07:00] and that, but I, um I clearly remember when I was 10, the love absolute love of my life. My grandmother passed away and they said to her, um, because in those days. You had to. You couldn't just be Christian. You had to be Catholic to go to heaven. If you were anything else, you went to hell. And I said, But that may wait a second. We've studied Jesus. He's a good man, you know. He did this, looked at, you know, it was important to him to care for the poor. He wasn't into people flashing their money around. And I [00:07:30] said, What about if she was a good person? What if she lived Christian values? What if she never heard of Christianity? Jesus, wouldn't she? Wouldn't that be good enough to get you into heaven? And they said no. I said, Well, your Christianity sucks. I will never be involved in this. And I still had to finish the rest of my education. And I spent the next six years fighting with my teachers and the nuns and even the ones I had crushes with. I had to put that aside because that's what you do for your politics [00:08:00] and so so spirituality. So what I do when we're doing prayers because it's become such an ingrained part of Maori culture that, uh, we do Christian things So I lower my eyes. I do not lower my head. I do not bow before a Christian God. And so these works. I'm not sure we may be slipping back and forth because I have not sort of the timing on this This art work here. Uh, how do we do this up? Big [00:08:30] generation X. See, I was 25. 1st time I touched a computer this, uh, figure in the centre. Can you see it? It's like, Oh, OK, right. Fine. It's real fast. Pause. How do you do? The pause. I need a beautiful assistant. That's what I need. [00:09:00] OK? Do you need me more anymore? OK, the whole time. Yeah. So the centre figure is a It's a guardian figure and a sea creature. And so and the two sides work is called. And so the first Poe or post on the side is about our gods and whoever that God [00:09:30] is or or gods, however you express yourself spiritually. On the other side is our ancestors. It's where you come from, however much you know about that. But it's actually how we anchor ourselves. So it's about finding a place and creating that support outside of your friends and family is on a higher level for for being who you are and finding a place where you can be safe inside yourself, finding contentment and peace. And so this is the first one, the next one. [00:10:00] This is Stone. One of the other things I've made a commitment with the eight series of artworks I did was every single one is in a different media. So I wanted them to remember that when these Maori, mostly Maori offenders, walk through the door. They are individual people. They have their own issues and not to just treat them as this blanket. Bad boy, bad girl, bad Maori. And so this one here and I did it as a touch piece. So it sits on the desk, and within a few weeks every single person who walks in there smooths it, [00:10:30] smooth their hand. It's called for always, and it's and so if you see the top of her head, her arm comes around the front and then someone else is looking and going. Is that a vulva? I mean, why, yes, And so it's that thing that all these offenders and these men who have a lot of violence, and the idea was just to remember that things are really hot and heavy and and crazy in our lives. [00:11:00] And the drama is full on and we've there's the offending or whatever the poor decision making that's happened. It's just like things will smooth out with time. The land will go on. It can sink the troubles into this piece. It's fully smooth, the whole top of it. Now there's no dust or anything that every single person who comes in there touches it is just want to sink in. So OK, the next one around cultural identity are Maori. As I said before, I've always been proud to be Maori. I'm gonna express that, you know, I do. I do. [00:11:30] I learn to speak our language. Uh, for a long time. I didn't in Dunedin. It was really hard to find a Maori to teach Maori and I refused to go to A to learn my own language. A lot of shame involved in that, uh, that part of it not that I should, because I understand things beyond my control control freak as I am. Um that that's just something you know, I couldn't do much about, but for a lot of people, um, that's a real problem. So the next one, please. [00:12:00] And so Oh, yeah. Next next one. I did that. Thank you. These two, These are about 6 ft tall, this one a little bit obscured. I'm sorry, uh, so so many of you have been on. So these reference the panels that we have and I want to do them in two because it's a core part of our identity and who we are. And so I wanted to show that when violence, trauma, abuse, rape happens and our families, and especially in our childhood that [00:12:30] quite often that's associated with our culture with whoever perpetrated that violence against us. You know, I was 19 before I met a Maori who was not brought up in violence. I didn't even know that such a person existed. So for me great, all these great things. But for me, it was integral. We're violent. We're a warrior nation. We fight, we hit. And and so I was just saying, But we start fragmenting in lots of different ways when that trauma affects us. And so I wanted to see that um that's that's where we might have come to this [00:13:00] place. But that's not our life. That's not our future. We do not have to live that life next place. And so on this close up, this is a silhouette of, uh the, which is a little that comes out out from Gisborne and the light, the gold light that comes. It could be a sunrise or a sunset, depending on how you want to look at it. But my thing and what I tell our kids, I tell young people I'm working with this. Every day is a fresh day to start again. We can no matter what you've done, no matter what has happened to you, we [00:13:30] can start again. And the design that comes up as the never listen to anybody that tells you this means stairway to heaven. Not true. Uh, it it is about, and it's about learning. It's about layers of so because Papa needs to make a layer, lay things on, and and so it's about learning a certain amount and then go further back [00:14:00] and you learn a certain amount, and sometimes it's about our ancestors. But sometimes it's about unravelling the layers of ourselves and where things came to because there's a historical trauma that colonisation, um, stories of migration story being from a war torn place. That's that has a generational impact. And we just we don't know that we just live that. And so it's also we use it. Use a lot of imagery. It's about learning scaffolding, your learning. Sometimes you can only handle a certain [00:14:30] amount of information. You take that in, you live that and then you can take a little bit more and it's just that steps. And so it's saying, Yeah, things get fragmented, fragmented. We learn a bit more. We learn to look after ourselves, and gradually those things we'll meet, we'll start pulling ourselves back together. And so, yeah, I encourage anybody who wants to You know what? You need to learn about your own culture to pull yourself together. Connecting with gender identity. Uh, III. I was born [00:15:00] a female I identify as female, so I haven't had an issue with that in my life. I identify with other Maori women with other indigenous women throughout the world I identify as a woman because not everybody in this world, uh, is born into the gender. That is true for them. And and so and also we're in a world where we're not just double X and XY chromosomes in this world. And so when we're looking at gender, they start saying [00:15:30] I'm no, I'm just I'm a woman and everybody else is other Then it's a thing of we're just 11 form of body. I have privilege because I have been I've grown up being told I'm beautiful, not helpful when someone's raping you, telling me you're beautiful, does your head in. And so it sings about what is beautiful and who has power to say what's good, what's not. What's good bodies, what's attractive. And and also then about finding that strength to decide I. I decide if I'm feeling good if I'm looking [00:16:00] good for myself, for whoever to be attractive, to be sexy. Whatever it is, however, we want to express ourselves, um, that's our power to do. And so this piece, yeah, I see that I have mixed up some of my slides. I'm just gonna flow with that, Um, this one actually is part of the last section. This is about learning about our culture. This is a piece called She bought the on the to New Zealand [00:16:30] and she um So I learned at school at my art school. I'm really lucky. Every single day we learn more theatre, so chants and incantations and and learn about and history of our area, which is awesome. It's a great way to start your day and then go and make artwork. And so I learned about her and I learned this. It's a weave, so this specific weave we used to do on a our kits to carry this is they were really important. [00:17:00] And so I wove this, an acknowledgement of her and the next one. This is so coming back to gender, and who we are means the essence, the pure essence of who we are inside ourselves, not what anyone else says what not what anyone else requires us to label for their understanding who we are and how we want to express ourselves. And it was the start of a series of works I did we about cutting into the body part [00:17:30] of that reference to self-harm, which is something when we internalise all that anger and stuff that's going on out there against our own bodies. And so part of that that cutting. But a lot of my work still is that I I want to turn the ugliness that someone else puts into me. I'll bring this out in beauty. I'll bring this out in strength and grace, and that is my goal with my artwork. And so and then the next one. Thank you. Um oh, yeah, Close [00:18:00] up. And next one, this is the because of the stuff that happened to me. Sexual abuse. When I was younger and raped as a teenager, I couldn't have Children. And so for a lot of my life, I lost a child when I was 16, and for a lot of my life, I that was not something I wanted to do. I had a massive crisis around it when I turned 40 my sister offered to have a child for me because my sisters were so worried that what might happen if I tried to get pregnant at that stage. And so the this [00:18:30] work is a series I did about women having the ability to create life and how especially that research I do into traditional Maori society, that that was a revered, absolutely revered role that women had and that our Children were well cared for by both their mothers and aunties as well as their warrior fathers and uncles. And then our elders looked after our Children because parents were too young. [00:19:00] What did they know and that everybody could look after? Colonisation has had so many impacts on gender expression of Maori women. It's insane. Uh, but so this is one of my tributes, then to the mothers of, uh, Mother's Day. I routinely send little texts to everybody as mothers who has Children, because I just say that the the women who put their effort in to bring up our Children safely and in love is one of the most fundamental [00:19:30] and important roles. Thanks and closer and see, we had to these classes, and I do a whole lot of weaving. Then I'll do a whole lot of clay and next thank you. This week here, it might be hard to see it's two bodies. I did, um, and this isn't again in one of the rooms at probation about domestic violence, because my household was absolutely a battleground growing up, as were all of my cousins, most of my friends, Uh, and [00:20:00] what I did was I took was you were familiar with, uh, last year, the Maori performing arts was held in our hometown. It was the entire place Gisborne was all about and and so I took all the newspapers every week. There was these amazing we front page, full colour photos. It was great. I took all these newspapers and turned them into pulp and made these bodies one male and one female. And I called this and it's about the good news and the bad news of [00:20:30] Maori because that was great news. But most of the time we're in because we are criminals. We've done something wrong. We're violent. We don't look after our Children. And so and the fact is, Gisborne, where I grew up where I live, is got the highest rates of domestic violence and child abuse in New Zealand. And so it's like, Wow, we have this incredible performing thing where the best of who we are is on show and then at the same time, some of you have to be going home [00:21:00] and smacking your kids around. Not so far past not cool. It's insane. And so this it's called. It's search for what is right. So the designer coming across the man's the male figures. Um, torso is about shouldering his responsibilities, Uh, and especially in terms of fathering and caring for his Children and and playing a role in healthy and safe relationships. And for the women again, about the It's like making some good choices about who you [00:21:30] have a access to your body and B, who you have father, your Children and who is in your Children's life once they're born. So so some people can look and go. Oh, that's pretty like, Did I tell them what it's about? I said, Do you still think it's pretty Next place and close up and OK, next section. Oh, actually still part of this. This is in the room, uh, the family room of [00:22:00] probation, the centrepiece of the design. It's about a parent caring for a child, and it's called Centre of the Universe. And my story with this is that if we just cared for our Children, we would transform Maori families and Maori society, and that's something we can tell all the stories we like about colonisation what's happened out here. But today we can make a choice about what happens in our home, how we look, how we relate to our partners, how we look after our kids [00:22:30] and the pieces, the flats going outwards represent, and I. But it's just about our extended support networks who we have to help. We need to help bring up our kids and and the natural colours. The colours are about the rainbow, all the different kinds of families, the way that we, um, you know, bring up our our Children within our diverse, really, really diverse cultural and queer families. And so there was, um, [00:23:00] I had a probation officer just last week said they had one of the offenders has been moving from room to room, and they kind of used the artworks. I wanted it to be like a springboard to raise issues and things, and he came and saw this one and just burst into tears is a really, really violent offender, and it's like That's why I do this and so because I personally cannot make contact with the person with that person. But if something like my artwork in this case can can do that, [00:23:30] then that's well, well worth the effort. Next, please. And this is what it looks like. It goes from floor to ceiling. It's huge. It's like nearly three metres wide. And the middle piece is like about this big. So yeah, thank you. And actually coming back to, um can leave the image. I find it, I suppose I didn't specifically say I'm sure I said before about being feminist is about where we put our politics and those things [00:24:00] that are important. Sometimes it's from our life experience, but sometimes that's just from what we think we need to align ourselves with and support other people in that work. This, um, is about kind of the queer side of things. I'm so, in fact, that I identify as Maori first and part of a wider community who might be lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans queer, questioning, gender, queer, asexuals and [00:24:30] I. I did this as a kind of an extension of my work with about cutting into bodies and and about weaving ourselves back together again. We got into the finals of the Ture Wearable Arts in Auckland. I originally designed some sort of wedding dress and then it just kind of got a bit sexier and shorter. And my motto is like tiny someone's cousin because no one else could fit it. And, uh but the top of it it's about It's like the fire and heat of the trauma [00:25:00] of the wounds. And like sometimes the open wounds that we wear and we're just like a walking me don't just like or just how we deliver things and people like who, you know, settle down. It's not that bad. It's like, really my time, that is, and and so but then it's like whether we get older. We we have people who provide support. We read something. They're just like, Wow, that's amazing. And we move into the healing colours and we just And it's like [00:25:30] the ribbon that is there is like little stitches. We just gradually the ends, they start softening. They're not so jagged. It's not, doesn't hurt when you move and start to start stitching it still open, still a bit raw, but you know, you get in there and then we move into the flowing colours and those it's we start to put effort into our own healing. It's called journey to healing. Um, and we just start weaving ourselves back together because at at the real basic level, only we can do that. And [00:26:00] and the colours of the rainbow then refers to to our rainbow communities. And it's about the whole piece is about being allowed to live safely and fully and sexually in the gender identity and sexual orientation that is right for us and how we want to live this one. I think this is a little bit more of a closer, but yeah, and then the last section. I've just kind of put on to miscellaneous because it's kind of everything else. There's many, many [00:26:30] other things about how we live the me being an artist, being an activist and how I choose to express myself in in whatever way, Uh, this the last one. When I introduce myself quite often, I'll say I'm a scorpion feminist, him and and I would I know lots of people discount astrology. Some people, like don't even know what this stuff. Oh, my God. I was at the one time it was my birthday, [00:27:00] and I had, um I wasn't resenting the fact that I was there instead of being on, you know, doing something for my birthday. So what I did was that I got the room and the to say what star sign they were and how that impacted on their youth work, right? And so, you know, it's like so I'm a scorpion. I'm passionate. I'm really I'm full of and, you know, and so we went. [00:27:30] And what was really funny was that several people going I don't really know what my star sign is or don't know what really what it means. Meanwhile, all the scorpions have got in a group together, and they're like, practically, you know, they just set everything up. They go all proudly, proudly, scorpion. But anyway, I would just anyway, I would discount it if I was not a textbook scorpion. You open any book that talks about it? It's like, Oh, that's Elizabeth. And so this is part of being a white water sign [00:28:00] is the ocean. And she is one of my ultra favourite. And the next one, please, this is a close up. This is Clay. And, um, yeah, just that thing of the range that she has from the crashing seas and the power that can just, like, take you away, wipe out massive ships and and then just the gentle, you know, ripples as they come up on the beach. It's just like she's amazing. And and then the next one, my other favourite, this is she is a goddess of fire. [00:28:30] And this was one of the things, uh, this is a She's a clay on driftwood. I do all of my clay ones like this, I actually I go to the beach and I call out, and then I move over and I find the wood, and then I make the clay to fit the wood if you had the next one. And this is my last slide. Uh, scorpions are ruled by the genitals. Genitals. This is actually about that smouldering, you know, power. And so you know clearly about sex. And so that's [00:29:00] and so you know, there's a lot of parts of ourselves. So in conclusion, as I draw this to a close and thank you for your help, um, I, I just wanna thank you all for listening and and just to, I suppose, encourage all of everybody. I've been through many years of putting myself last putting the needs of my family, [00:29:30] our kids, uh, the cause. Other Maori women who have been hurt and putting aside my pain. And so these are way different ways. You pay for that eventually. And I suppose I want to encourage everybody to look at those different parts of themselves to the extent you want to. I mean, if it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. Uh, but also, to harness the creativity, we have no to to look at something. Is this stuff that I've always said I'd really like to do that, but really, [00:30:00] I don't have time, but really, this other stuff is more important to actually find to look at those things and just say, Well, actually, I'm allowed. I give myself permission to be happy to express myself in the most creative and beautiful and powerful way that I can. And I just really want to support you to do that, Uh, one of the groups that I formed a trust, which is how I met and Jack. And it's a group. [00:30:30] It's a group and an advisory. And we, uh, performed at lots of things. We advised lots of things. I still do. Uh, and we it was It's a group where if you supported the you would come so many people from many different cultures and and gender identities and sexual orientations. But we had three goals to that group. One was to build our communities two to tell our stories and [00:31:00] three to leave a legacy. And that's something that I wish for all of you and to just to remember that inside the cause you are important and I'll finish with the which is from wa and the more hunters You know, this I love singing that Maori thing that all these years have been dragged up Whether you're good at singing or not, you get to do it anyway. So [00:31:30] OK, we here are what mm be your than my nation and cross the wide wide ation We won't kneel down up on the ground Oh, how I love [00:32:00] to hear them sing my mouth Good day. Done. Go there. Or And my mom? Yeah, [00:32:30] killed that right? Yeah. Thanks, Elizabeth. I've been I've been really fortunate to know Elizabeth for many years now and seeing Elizabeth speak at heaps of stuff and always always delivers and comes out and just just really moving and yeah, I think, [00:33:00] um, I've been on for six months or eight months, and they say that, um, you start taking the tea, and it's really hard to cry. And I was like, Oh, that won't happen to me. I cry all the time, and unfortunately, it has happened. But yeah, today just kind of seeing that stuff and hearing you speak about all that stuff. Um, especially, I guess where your art goes and how it reaches out and touch people. Um, yeah, I'll be like, Oh, there's a cry coming on. Um, so pretty much, Yeah, I think we'll, um, break into [00:33:30] smaller groups, maybe of about three or so, if you feel like talking. Otherwise, there's been a lot said and a lot kind of brought into the room from a lot of different parts, Um, as well as all of ourselves, as well as all of our the needs have come in. So if you want to take some time to just chill and kind of let that sink into yourselves Um, this is probably a good time. Otherwise, um, yeah, get to get together kind of smaller groups and, um [00:34:00] have a yarn about kind of all the multiplicities of the different parts of our Selves that come together and clash and don't quite fit that Get left at the door that get, um, put outside that kind of stuff. Um, and we'll come back about in about 15 minutes just before four.

IRN: 473
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/carmen_memorial_auckland.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003909
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089203
TITLE: Carmen Rupe memorial, Auckland
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Charles Chauvel; Cindy of Samoa; Dana de Milo; David Hartnell; Diego Te Manaaki Brown; Francis Rupe; Jackie Clarke; Jurgen Hoffman; Mika X; Miss Ribena; Ramon Te Wake; Richard Tankersley; Robin Waerea
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1970s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Australia; Carmen Rupe; Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Charles Chauvel; Cindy of Samoa; Dana de Milo; David Hartnell; Diego Te Manaaki Brown; Francis Rupe; Jackie Clarke; Jurgen Hoffman; Mika Haka Foundation; Mika X; Miss Ribena; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Penny Dodd; Ramon Te Wake; Richard Tankersley; Robin Waerea; St Matthew-in-the-City; Sydney; The Balcony / Le Balcon; The Purple Onion; Wellington; drag; human rights; performance; transgender
DATE: 11 February 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: St Matthew-in-the-City, 132 Hobson Street, Auckland
CONTEXT: Audio from the memorial to Carmen held at St Matthew-in-the-City, Auckland.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Daddy anything? [00:00:30] [00:01:00] My wife. [00:01:30] [00:02:00] You I know, but like, you know [00:02:30] OK, bye kind to me. Hello? Fuck you. My, my The mother had come and and And they [00:03:00] fucking way up to you, though? [00:03:30] Yeah, is [00:04:00] Well, you know how to like Hello. 10, 18. Um, zero. [00:04:30] Thank you for a night. [00:05:00] The car. We are [00:05:30] [00:06:00] very briefly. I'm not going to keep you long, but it it's it's, uh an honour and a privilege that I don't get very often to speak in a place that's not my home. So [00:06:30] greetings, first and foremost to the home people of this area. And I'm only speaking to Mr who is coming today has become unwell and is unable to be here and so in. Instead, I'm, uh, privileged to be able to speak and to welcome you formally to this memorial service. And for And so for those of you who have brought her memory and the memory of [00:07:00] the other that has been brought in here Greetings to you who've come from her home place for her friends and loved ones who've come from from Wellington, from all of you who have gathered from a and especially those who've come especially over from Sydney, to bring her memory back to us. So we can share greetings to you, [00:07:30] [00:08:00] [00:08:30] [00:09:00] [00:09:30] [00:10:00] [00:10:30] but yeah, find it. Ladies and gentlemen, please make some noise. Yeah, [00:11:00] mhm, the like that and [00:11:30] way she look at that. Look at that. Scared people of M of the way [00:12:00] we will. Donna. We used to get it re written. Every had the chair hands to down the would we, David, would [00:12:30] we do it again? Here he like he like heaven and above. But we would go again. That's right. Tonight. Tonight we're celebrating our fabulous girlfriend, Carmen Rupe. Yes. And what do we do to make noise scream? This isn't gonna be repeated. This is it. And what's needed is seeing the young and some of the young ones had no idea that a long time ago, like when I was a little homosexual, we could have gone to prison, had labour. [00:13:00] Life was really hard. If you saw a man and he was up for it, you did it because odds are they were married. They had a respectable job. They were an MP. Some still are MP S. But you gotta be gay to be an MP now, don't you? Really? It's kind of so I have lots of guests and lots of singing and a few surprises. But just relax. If you feel you need to stand and move around, it's a memorial. And I'm so glad [00:13:30] that were here. We met in Sydney at the at the funeral, and we test for the first time. How long have you known each other and never met? Oh, I don't know. 84 months, 40 years. We're glad you're here. Thank you for coming and throughout. Relax. And if there's a mistake, that's a good thing, because it's not rehearsed. Just whatever comes out, comes out. Just keep it honest. And please, if you can't see here but this come to us this evening, [00:14:00] Miss Penny do, ladies and gentlemen. Yeah. Tell me [00:14:30] what we would We like. You Who? Yeah, the And what? At you. We? [00:15:00] The telephone. There was the car. That was the coffee lounge. We went to the coffee lounge. Yeah, I do. I think a few of them in the coffee lounge. And remember the flower fashion accessory in those $2 shops And those earrings Smith and Coe don't have those. I can tell you like Christine. Yes, the way [00:15:30] I know so many stories that I'm gonna say them because everybody else is gonna say them. Um, but I did watch, you know, the musical Carmen, because that was one of the reasons she took the name Carmen [00:16:00] And those of you who don't know our friends in Australia who are here who come who I met at. They will tell you later. But officially, when Carmen was laid to rest, she was laid to rest as a woman. And that's an amazing, beautiful thing for her and her journey. So I was watching car in that musical, but I saw the black one. You know, that thing is Dorothy Dandridge. No, obviously not near over 25. Well, we're lucky this evening because my dear friend, Jackie Clark is going to sing [00:16:30] the song from Thank you. And here you are him to child, [00:17:00] and he won't pay any mind what? See his diamond stuck and I won't give him my cigarettes. Do handle? Yeah, yeah, [00:17:30] you go for me. I bar to get oh, I do. That's the so don And [00:18:00] to I tell you to He is my The decides to fly Mary can [00:18:30] and she can assault from her tail and go, You will get taught. And here is your today you. And if I got you out Yeah, [00:19:00] you go. Hm. But if they are, are you handy you, then you. Yeah. So take a Yorkie. Don't say I didn't [00:19:30] Yeah, I tell you to leave if I am. That's the [00:20:00] Thank you, Jackie. She's fantastic in the machine. Great. OK, now all you speakers who come up here to some of you want the mic stand, some of you won't feel free. We're very lucky because, um, as you know, carbon is the last of that generation. You know, there's a handful of you here now, In fact, there's a whole row of you here now, to be honest, actually, you can tell that row of Queens Look at them. There's six. There's six queens here. Stand up, ladies. Let's have a Come on, stand up. Stand up. [00:20:30] Come on, Donna, you would like to come and join us now. Uh uh uh um What can I say? Oh, my Coxes [00:21:00] Creek. The one tree hill. No tree anymore. But I reside in Wellington now and lived in Australia as well. And it's a great privilege to be here to talk about somebody that was a lady. No matter what Carmen did in life. Carmen was a lady. Carmen never swore. You never heard Carmen raise her voice publicly. I think I only heard it once. Um, privately. Um, [00:21:30] she wasn't one to to, have a vulgar mouth. And she was a very respectful lady. She was a very giving person. A lot of people don't know the Carmen that I knew that was very generous giving, uh, she donated to charities. People didn't know about that. When she had her business, she gave to charities. Um, she wasn't a person to talk about those sort of things. She just did it. Um, I used to go and see her in Sydney after she lived in Sydney, and [00:22:00] I was in Melbourne and it was always come out for lunch and she would shout, and there was no way you could get to pay. And, uh, she also knew that people were ripping her off in lots of ways because she had a a girl that used to work for her by the name of Shelley. And Shelley bought this car. And this is Carmen's wit. As I said, she never cracked jokes, but she had a very dry wit. And she said to Shelley Oh, I see you bought us a car with my money. Where [00:22:30] are we driving to, dear? It tells, or someone come in with a bus job. Did I pay for those kids there? Did I pay for that sex chain? You know, um, but, you know, people talk about her career and all the things she did. They people forget that she was a very loving, giving person. She could move across boundaries. Uh, she was just at it as a home at, um, city mission up in Sydney. Um, she [00:23:00] was city mission here before she went away. She used to go to the soup kitchen. Um, and she was a legend on both sides, and there was never nasty things come and never did bad things that made us look to be ashamed of who we were. She made us proud to be who we are. And she was a person that wasn't afraid to stand up in the limelight of because she loved it. But, you know, she made them pave the way for us. And for people that probably, um, would never have known what they were or were too frightened [00:23:30] or didn't believe. Because in my day, I first met Carmen when I was 13 or 14 years old and she was maybe 23. 24. She had just come back from Sydney. She was working for Ray and has at the top of street Little Queen Street. It was called opposite the Kara. And I had a friend that worked in the Kara and, um, Carmen came in this beautiful Che on Sam. Long hair looking absolutely amazing. I thought, Oh, I'm sure she's fine like me. So I shot up to the counter to have a look and [00:24:00] I don't know. And then as she left, I said to the girl behind the counter, Is she like me? And she said, How do you know? I said, I don't know. I just feel it, you know? So I followed her to work, and she used to work, as I said in Upper Queen Street, and they used to have a guy on the door, and I used to be watching Every time the door opened, I'd be watching to see if she was on stage. And she felt sorry for me because I'd be there nearly every night. She said to the guy, Oh, let her in. She only wants to watch. She's not gonna do anything. So I was allowed to go in and watch the show. That's the kind of person she was. And she [00:24:30] never knew me from the bar. So, you know, But she knew we were. And um, yes, I think that people have got to remember calm. And the woman the woman that gave to all of us, gave us jobs when people wouldn't give us jobs. I mean, the balcony, the coffee bar, and I mean And also in those days, a lot of people didn't know that we were queens. Uh, it didn't get out until Wally Martin started his dirty rag and sprung Carmen [00:25:00] and all the girls. So then it even made it busier for Carmen because they'd come up to the balcony and and look at all and and and they'd pick all the real girls as being the Queens. That one. So it was you know, we had great times, and it was hard times She changed the I ran away from Auckland because it was so torturous up here. They used to put the dogs onto you and throw you in the lock up every night. And And she changed those back for us in 1966 when she got arrested [00:25:30] and it was brought in court that the There's no law against dressing in the opposite sex as clothes, unless to cause the flow in that example Black in the face. And she wasn't doing that. So that made it so much easier. And that was the first step for us to get along, you know, and Carmen did that. And, um, I'd just like to leave you with a little bit of her wit. Um, as I said, she never allowed us to pay for lunch. She'd go there and she'd tell you where to meet her or go and pick her up. And but she'd already arranged the day [00:26:00] before that the meal was paid for or whatever, you know, well, And if you were leaving, she'd be trying to put money into your and buy a scone and a cup of tea on the way home. She was just like a mother to us all, you know. And this day we got away with it, took her to Fox City in Sydney, and my friend Natalie and Jason, her and, um and I don't know if I can do it in this church. It's a bit risque, but anyway, uh, her nephew, I used to hide down here when I went to Sydney Memorial Technical College. It's [00:26:30] so so gay that it's a gay church Now. I used to hide from the boys down here until they all went home. My bus stopped out the front, you know, anyway, we we fox sitting and, um, she's sitting there and she said to me, We talk. She was talking about something came up about being in jail. And of course, we were always getting picked up and thrown in jail and she said, Oh, girl did did they used to stick their booty through the people at you, and I said, Oh, I used to hit it with my plastic knife, you know? And she said, Oh, I used to say, Oh, how disgusting. I couldn't [00:27:00] go [00:27:30] [00:28:00] cars mhm welcome. When I was asked to put to put a song together, I wasn't quite sure what to do. Um, I've written hundreds of songs over the years, and I kind of remembered that come and possesses qualities that I believe a girl like me would aspire to. [00:28:30] She is graceful, She's beautiful, She's full of fire. She's courageous. And I think, um, any girl would love to grow up and be like her. I don't have my guitar with me this evening. I just have my voice. So I'm going to sing a song called, um Songbird. Mhm. So [00:29:00] then he's no crying so little bit shy Come up we [00:29:30] And I hate it. The song Mhm. I love I never two [00:30:00] You, um, would give Oh, bye. Was this It's so [00:30:30] I don't know. And its kids? No. Yeah, like [00:31:00] and this so thank you. Um, our next speaker goes back. I met him properly When? Um, the late John Draper and I see Tim Co is [00:31:30] here today. We created a show called Carmen's International Coffee Lounge about 94 95 and I met this man. He's New Zealand's gossip columnist of the things he knows that. Well, you know, his lips are healed. Um, but I'd like him to come out and speak now. He is also David Hard is the patron of the Vari Variety Artist Club of New Zealand. A very close colleague, friend of Carmen and always the perfect gentleman. Ladies and gentlemen, Mr David hard. [00:32:00] I'm embarrassed to say that I don't know any Maori. I only know two languages, English and rubbish, that I've made my life writing rubbish. But, you know, I've got to say that if life has taught me one thing, it's happy. Endings only happen in the movies. Carmen told me that about 20 or 30 years ago. You know, she may be very well right now. I spent time as a celebrity gossip columnist working and interviewing [00:32:30] stars and celebrities from all walks of life. And let me tell you, there are some people who no matter what will be a star. And Carmen was one of them. I used to pick the phone up at home and she'd say, Darling, tell me all the gossip and I'd start No, no, no, no. She'd say, Start off like the gossips. And I had to say welcome. And I'm not one to gossip, but And she used to laugh. She said, That's what I want. I want all the gossip And she loved the gossip. She loved movies. It was extraordinary. [00:33:00] The vocabulary that she had on all movies, which was quite astounding. You know, she was a dealer. She was a style icon, an artist and a very generous soul over her lifetime. As you said, people ripped Carmen off, exploited her and her uniqueness. Did Carmen ever complain? Never. Did she hold a grudge? Never. She just got on with doing what we love about her being calm. [00:33:30] At this point, I'd publicly like to thank two gentlemen that I met at my house through, uh, Carmen. And that's Jurgen and Robin, who are here today from Australia. And I'd like to personally thank you for looking after Carmen right up until her last breath from the bottom of my heart. I thank you both. I first met Carlin back in the 19 sixties. Even then, she was a person who did what she did out of passion simply because she wanted to, not because she had to, and I so admired [00:34:00] her for that she was blessed with a wonderful dry wit. As you said, it was just extraordinary. She should have been a stand up comedian. She had a unique fashion style, as as, uh, my friend said, They're now on the $2 shop and I think of car and every time I see those clips and those flowers. She was a Trailblazer for New Zealand, uh, gay community. She certainly opened floodgates for transgender people and for drag queens. But you know what matters [00:34:30] most to me. It's not the dry wit. It's not the way she dressed. It's the dash line that will go on a headstone between the year of her birth 1936 and the year of her death, 211. You see that dash line represents all the time that Carmen spent a life with us here on Earth. But then only family and close friends will know what that dash line was really worth. I'm so very [00:35:00] proud to say that Carmen was a dear friend of mine, an extraordinary friend during that dash line. Now there's nothing more than an entertainer likes than a standing ovation. I'm going to ask you all now if you wouldn't mind standing because this is a final curtain call for So would you mind standing? And let's give her the ovation that she deserves as an entertainer. Let's hear it for Carmen the entertainer. [00:35:30] I think that would be about three curtain calls. Thank you for doing that. And I'm certain that she's heard that rousing applause. And it brought a smile to those blood red [00:36:00] lipstick covered lips that we all love so dearly. Thank you for allowing me to speak on this day about my friend Carmen. We celebrate her life and her times. There was only one Carmen. There will only be one Carmen, and my lips will not be sealed when it comes to talking about this wonderful lady. Thank you. My name. I won't help [00:36:30] before I know. But, um, I knew since I was 15 and she was a wonderful person. She always said to me, You can join the gypsy tramps and beats people that Jesus really liked. Always do it to the max. Don't do it half hard it, she says. The meat made healthier but never be in it. And she always said to me, Do it to the absolute best to come. Come consider the of the field how they grow. [00:37:00] Neither that they to nor that they we it, Solomon and orders glory was not a arrange, one of which think about it. There's still seven countries in the world that murder legally homosexuals. [00:37:30] And we live in this amazing country. We are in a church celebrating this most amazing woman, Carmen and I know. And I think they may have gone, but they were very close friends of cars. Are they there? They gone. They've gone. They've gone. Don't you girls want to say anything? They've gone. There's a queen. Um, Ladies and gentlemen, now we have Richard Kingsley from the Human Rights Commission. Thank you for coming today, [00:38:00] Richard. Uh um, I've already done some greetings, but, uh, I'm now putting on my formal hat for the Human Rights Commission. I'm a commissioner with the Human Rights Commission. And, um, the human rights of, uh, people of, uh, sexual orient with different sexual orientations and gender identities is one of the areas that I cover. Um, I'm a cisgender gay man. There we go. Just in case [00:38:30] you were wondering, uh, and uh, it's been a great privilege to be working, uh, for the commission and, uh, in that role, I want to pay tribute, particularly, and our previous speakers have mentioned made mention of this particularly you David, of the amazing contribution that Carmen made over her life. To human rights, for trans people, for gay people, [00:39:00] for lesbian people, for bisexual people, for intersex people because she actually stuck up for all of us. I've got some notes, and if I don't use them, I'll stand here for hours in random rate. So I am going to refer to them. It's really important to know that human rights are internationally agreed. And in 1948 New Zealand was one of the signing, drafting and signing parties to the Universal Declaration [00:39:30] of Human Rights. And one of the first statements that that declaration makes is that all people are born free and equal in dignity and human rights, and that applies to all of us, not just people that we like, not just people that we approve of, but all of us, because we're human and for me is two things I'm getting. I'll stand [00:40:00] back a little bit, Carmen has been in this regard and in fact, for our whole let me say Rainbow Community and those of us who belong, know what that means. She's been in Maori terms. She's been a leader and a prophet everywhere that we have gone in terms of human rights for [00:40:30] sexual, for sexual and gender minorities. Carmen was there, sticking up the flag before us. Before Stonewall, Dana told us about the court case where there was a landmark ruling that said, It's not going to be illegal in this country for people to wear clothes of the other. Sex Before Stonewall and Stonewall is seen as the genesis of the modern queer rights movement. [00:41:00] And before stonewall in New Zealand there was before the 1986 Homosexual Law Reform Act. There was running for the mayoralty in Wellington before the inclusion of sexual orientation of the Prohibited Discrimination grounds and the Human Rights Act. In 1993 there was Carmen [00:41:30] before prostitution law reform In 2004, there was again Well, it is a me and in 2006, and a number of you here that I know were party to this was the publication of a report by the Human Rights Commission to be Who I Am, [00:42:00] which was a report, the final report of an national inquiry into the rights of transgender people that was initiated by the Human Rights Commission in conjunction with the Trans Communities of New Zealand and be, well, well, well before that, there was those words that are used at the start in Maori. He had done a [00:42:30] means, a chief, and it doesn't just mean achieved, but it means comes from we the people and the chief lines is about the ability of a person to weave the people around a around a cause around a reason. And that was Carmen and the other word. It's a transliteration [00:43:00] of the English word prophet and of hold in any tradition, the prophets are the people that stand up and call the people to where they need to be. And so for me, when she died, somebody asked me what what did I remember Carmen most as, and for me, Carmen was a prophet because she had the guts to stand up and be counted while other people [00:43:30] were saying, Oh, no, it's gonna be OK. We'll sort of get by? Well, actually, some of our people didn't get by and she stuck up for them. And so for me, she was fabulous as well. That's the I was. I was lucky to be alongside Kevin here and a number of others. A participant in the Gay Games in 2002 in Sydney and those of you in Sydney. I'm probably telling a bit of your story. But there was a group that was [00:44:00] set up by the Maori and Pacific people called Pacific, which was there to support the Aboriginal people and the Games people in the hosting of the games. And Carmen was right in the middle of that. Absolutely. And so, Dana, when you're talking about the loving mother and all that sort of support that experience, she was right in there in the middle of everything in Sydney, supporting the local people, supporting the queer community. And we had the first ever indigenous peoples, [00:44:30] um, queer Indigenous People's Conference in the world there, and some of us were there, and she was right in the middle of that, supporting it all the way. She didn't take the front row. She was in the back, making it go. And I agree with you, Dana. She was always a lady, and I remember we left the venue and we went back into I was going. I was staying in Surrey Hills. I was billeted in Surrey Hills and we got off at the bus at the same time and I walked her all the way up Riley Street because the lady shouldn't be [00:45:00] left alone in Surrey hills by themselves, even if she is the queen of Surrey Hills. And so I remember her fondly for all those things. But from a human rights perspective, particularly a chief and a prophet calling us to where we need to be and where we need to continue to be in our lives. [00:45:30] And now see, So I, state [00:46:00] of which I did it can [00:46:30] shadow cool for I love And [00:47:00] next [00:47:30] I believe my you. Oh, [00:48:00] may the [00:48:30] [00:49:00] February 70 of some. And Cindy has kindly invited you up to DNA on K Road after this event, as has our next speaker to their club at family. So it's only 100 metre walk [00:49:30] between each one. So what you do is you start at one and go, Oh, there's no one here. Go to the other one. There's no that's what we do there all night. It's kind of an annual sort of gay ritual, isn't it? Every Friday night, we do that up and down to each other's clubs. But we're all gonna be there, and it's gonna be really friendly. And come on down. Uh, we have to thank a few people. Um uh, all the volunteers today, uh, we have been ja over here, and the Carl Mos are on sound and all of Jordan's crew from the New Zealand Age Foundation. In fact, Jordan at the back, waving [00:50:00] over the air. Yes, he's a bit that one. As soon as Carmen passed away, he was the first one to ring. We went up to Sydney and saw you all. And it was because of Jordan that Jordan and I created this event. But this young man is brilliant, and I'd like you all to give him a round of applause. He's so fucking up, Jordan, I put it on a mostly because I did Melbourne shopping last week. That was real. Right, Moving on. Here we go. [00:50:30] Oh, yes. Now. Um, Unfortunately, Gareth Farr couldn't be here this evening. Um, as some of you know, um, his friend Lloyd Morrison passed away, and he was a patron of Gareth. So his apologies. We do, however, have Charles our MP. He is the I love this shadow Attorney General representing the Labour Party. Do your titles get any shorter? Ladies and gentlemen, Mr Charles Chaval and members of the Labour Party [00:51:00] and the I, uh, am not in the programme. I'm a ringing. Uh, I wasn't originally going to speak, but, uh, my colleagues and I wanted just to come along and sit here and [00:51:30] be part of a tribute to, uh As it happens, Jordan asked us if, uh, I would say a few words on behalf of, uh, the Labour Party and on behalf of the New Zealand Parliament. And it's a real honour to be able to do that as a tribute to come. Uh, Louisa Wall is here. She's my parliamentary colleague, the member of parliament for, [00:52:00] and Judith Tizard, the former member of Parliament for Auckland Central. Uh, and also the former associate Minister for arts, Culture and Heritage is here and really what we wanted to do was bring the respectful greetings of all our colleagues here tonight, Uh, and of course, also to bring greetings from our first transsexual MP, Georgina Baer, who, [00:52:30] uh, I know is thinking of us all and is with us in spirit tonight. My partner, Dave and I were having lunch earlier with the and her partner, Prue, and they had a copy of the Order of Service from Carmen's service in Sydney last month. And it's a wonderful document if you get the chance to see it, because it reminds us of so many aspects of Carmen's life. There's a fantastic [00:53:00] photo of her on that notorious mobility scooter in King's Cross, and she's wearing this fantastic, flamboyant red outfit. There's bags attached to the handlebars, and there's a flowing scarf. But on one page of the order of service, there's something a bit more poignant. There's a list that Carmen wrote, uh, back in November when she realised that she was approaching the end, and [00:53:30] it said, When I die, please make sure that my hair is tidy, that my lipstick is well applied, that I've got my black dress on and that I'm wearing my mother's Greenstone necklace and ring my sister in time of to let her know. For those of us who remember how well organised Carmen was, uh, here is proof that that's a trait that just continued right [00:54:00] until the end. Earlier, Judith was telling me, uh, a story about the famous occasion when Carmen was hauled before the privileges Committee of the New Zealand Parliament. Uh, and here's an ironic twist for you. I chair that committee today, but the reason she was called before the committee is that she was standing for the Wellington Marty and she made a public comment to the [00:54:30] effect that there were, uh, as we heard earlier, MP S who were gay. Well, of course, uh, in the seventies, that was, uh, implying that there were members of parliament who were engaged in illegal activity. And so poor old Carmen was dragged before this, uh, committee of the parliament just got the power to imprison and fine and do all sorts of, uh, drastic things if the privileges of the Parliament are infringed. Anyway, as [00:55:00] Judith was telling me, all the members of the committee were men. There were exactly two women's toilets in the entire parliament buildings at the time. And at one point during the proceedings, in a very loud voice, Carmen asked if she could please use the ladies. And if somebody would show her where it was, Well, there was a stunned silence. Nobody got up to help her until, uh, Judith did. And Judith tells me that, uh, once they finally [00:55:30] got to the ladies, there was much shrieking and laughter because Carmen showed Judith how to apply her makeup properly again. For those of us who know Carmen, Uh, here she was in the middle of a hearing with all the drama and pan plea that Parliament can deploy before a committee that could have fined her or put her in jail. [00:56:00] But she insisted on her dignity and her rights. No one was going to stop her from using the ladies. Ladies and gentlemen, this is a celebration of Carmen's 75 years on our planet, and we should celebrate all the wonderful joy that she brought into our lives. But as we do so, let's also renew our commitment to make [00:56:30] sure that the things that Carmen stood for dignity and equality and also a bit of glamour are things that we all continue to strive for [00:57:00] course. Thank you, You both of the Labour Party and Judith Tizard for the makeup. Even [00:57:30] I never knew that. I'll get you that one on road one day. Now I like to bring up one of our many queens of road, A dear friend of Carmen's who I know, like many of us, supported Carmen in many ways over the years. She needs no introduction because she's the brightest Leon spot in the entire room. Ladies and gentlemen, Miss Raina. [00:58:00] Oh, my goodness me. I just want to say, um, it's it's a journey, It's a parade and it's a Mardi Gras, everybody. And, um, I just wanna give a special tribute over here to Carmen's fabulous family and all of you in the room this evening in the church, from to Auckland to Wellington to Sydney, Australia, 310 22 Riley Street. That was Carmen's [00:58:30] fabulous fabulous place she lived in. I knew Carmen from 1996 and she was always that auntie you always wanted and I got her. I would ring him, and every Sunday, once a month at 8 30 on the dot And over the years she would always answer the phone and she would say hello. [00:59:00] And now I'd go Who? Yeah, and I'd go. How are your cow? And she'd go, Go. How are you? I The next step was always the same. Everybody. I'd say Carmen, get a pen and paper so she'll get the pen and paper. And I'd say because I go to Sydney 4 to 5 times a year and I'd say I'm flying in on this date time. Hang on. And she'd write it [00:59:30] down and she'd repeat it back to me. The same procedure she knew what to do. And over the years, when I went to her house in Riley Street, there was the bit of paper with the time, the date and our party. So before I'd always go to Sydney, I'd ring her the night before and I'd say, Carmen, are you ready? And she'd go make sure you're here at six o'clock, Miss Raina, I'd say we're gonna be there [01:00:00] at six o'clock and we'd do the same procedure on the Sunday night. The cab would pull up at 322 Riley Street. Every cab driver knew that address. It didn't matter where they were from. They all knew we were going to Carmen's house for some reason, and I'd get her out of her out of her house and she'd be in the most fabulous, colourful a ray flowers birds. Her favourite colour was [01:00:30] red, black and white. And at her funeral in Sydney, that was the colours that most of us wore. And over the years, it was a wonderful parade she led when we'd go see her. I've been to 15 gay and lesbian Mardi grass. This is my 16th year, and Carmen was the one of the only people in the parade. Everyone that was actually announced. There were thousands on the parade, and they announced [01:01:00] her Sydney's icon, Carmen Rue, and the crowd would applaud her. And last year I went to Sydney six times to see her, and I'd bring her and she'd say, Ray Bena, can you please get me two prawns and two oysters? And over the last [01:01:30] year, last year last year, her health declined, as we all know, and the visits then went from Riley Street and Stonewall Hotel, where we'd go on a Sunday night and it ended up at, of course, Saint Vincent's Hospital and Saint Vincent's Hospice. But we had fainter parties. She was a diabetic, but we still had our fan parties, [01:02:00] and I take her of oysters and her two prawns and last year was the only Mardi Gras car and never went on. And then her health got slowly, worse and then in no. In October, we went to his 75th birthday, and what a celebration that was, everyone. The city came alive. And then I went over in November to see her, [01:02:30] and we sat at the rest home and she had her fish and chips and quiche Lorraine and her cup of tea with five sugars. That was, she said, one more rain or one more. And then that afternoon, I just want to share something. I wheeled her to her room and I put her into into [01:03:00] her bed and I lowered the curtains in her rest home and she said, Rabia, there's one wish I've always wanted that they change the Mardi Gras name to the Maori Gra and I sat there for an hour and she dozed off and she woke up again. She said, Are you Are you there still, Kevin? That's my boy name. I said, Yeah, I'm still here. Come And And [01:03:30] I took out her little, um, butterfly head thing she has on for her hair. And I gave her a drink of Fanta without the nurses knowing. And that was the last time I saw her. And her final words to me was Come and I'm gonna go And she goes, Rana, keep being gay. Yeah, Thanks. [01:04:00] In three weeks time does the game lives in Mardi Gras and she has a float going to Oxford Street with 100 people. And we're gonna be on that float. And before I finish what I'm gonna say, thank you for the years. Thank you for the years. For all of her friends that know Thank you for the years come. And it's a famous song by Shirley Basie. I haven't [01:04:30] in the last 12 months, I'd like these three men to stand up Robin Egan and Diego from Sydney, Australia. There is also, and Nicky, that could have made it. But these three gentlemen over here are the three that went to her rest home every day and helped her [01:05:00] and please give them one more big Pia and welcome. Thank you, boys. So thank you for the years, Carmen. And on the fourth of March, come on. Your journey and parade from the bottom of Hyde Park up Oxford Street into Taylor Square Down Flinder. Your wish will come true. Your Maori graft float will be erected. [01:05:30] So please, you know, pretend it's the 95 fruits. It's just that rang. Three other people that rang me today was the, uh, the management of Stonewall Hotel on Oxford Street. They sing their love, Ben and of course, the divine. Miss Kay couldn't make it today. So be some wishes to all of your family. [01:06:00] Thank you for me, Miss Robina. God bless you. And happy, happy Maori, everybody. Well, on that note, um, I met you three gentlemen last year as well Who have been looking after Carmen. So we would actually like you to come up, please, and say something. These are three men who looked after Carmen every day for a year. They didn't miss a day and they made sure her wishes [01:06:30] were carried out. The funeral as they requested. So, ladies and gentlemen, Diego Robin and Gan, [01:07:00] [01:07:30] Uh, [01:08:00] not either, Uh [01:08:30] uh or, uh, my gay name. But anyhow, it's always been Don Diego. Everybody used to say to me, Oh, what's your real name? And and Carmen used to say, I just keep it as your stage name. But [01:09:00] II, I couldn't lie because that's my name, Don Diego. But it has been a privilege, and I know that the ones from Sydney would love to be here. Uh, we are the face for them. We send their love to one of all of you and to, [01:09:30] um it's so easy to speak Maori because I I know I won't get nervous, But Carly said always be a show girl girl. But, you know, she always said to me, Look, whenever you meet someone always say hello and to me, you know, it doesn't matter who you are, where you come from, it's just give a a lovely smile and say hello. So with with further and I just like to [01:10:00] say thank you, Diego, my name is, um, Jurgen Hoffman. And, [01:10:30] uh, I'm a part. I'm Robin's, um, partner. Uh, before I get started, I'd actually like to say, um, thank you to Dana and to, um, Richard for actually, um, commenting on, um on Carmen and, uh, of course, uh, Carmen as the, um, lady. And as we all know in this room, Carmen was the absolute lady. So, um, thank you very much for that. I was one of four, guardians of Carmen. Um, Robin [01:11:00] Kelly and her niece Shanette were guardians, and they looked after Carmen's caring more. They just dragged me in to look after her finances. OK, so I did my best on that regard. I was fascinated by Carmen. I mean, we met only 11 years ago, so it hasn't been that long at all. And, um and she was fascinated because she had some great [01:11:30] stories to tell. OK, and that's what really enthralled me and brought me in. And, uh, it's just magic to be able to sit down and, uh, and listen to Carmen and share those stories with us. Because, as we all know, um, Carmen had a, uh, remarkable life. And, uh, we heard today some of the things that she, um, actually achieved, so we must not er we must not forget. And I don't think, um, we will forget There's a small group in, um, in Sydney, a small group of us and we, uh we're trying really hard [01:12:00] to put together the, um Carmen Roy Memorial Trust. OK, it's a charitable. It's going to be a charitable trust. We're going to have a trust deed drawn up a little bit of a delay there. But it's going to happen, OK, because Carmen's legacy, you know, needs to be honoured. And, uh, it needs to be protected. We're also working on on the memorial, um, trust website. So that's coming your way as well Come in. [01:12:30] It will be a memorial trust dot org. It's going to be it. So you'll find some interesting information on that in the coming months. So we're looking for support. Obviously, it can't just be us over in Aussie. We're looking for your support as well in relation to the, um, in relation to the trust. So we we we'd welcome all of your ideas. And, um, you can send those to us via the, um, the Web page or the, um, Facebook page. [01:13:00] A couple of weeks ago, we were asked, um by, um, Karen and Perry, Thank you very much to pen A few words about Carmen and, um and I'd just like to share those with you now. So Robin and I put this together For Carmen, it was all about maintaining a strong sense of belonging, [01:13:30] not only with those linked through blood, but also with those thousands she touched over the decades through association and friendship. Carmen did not discriminate. Carmen was for community. Carmen is forever. Thanks for the opportunity. Karen Perry. It's amazing the amount of paper I have here [01:14:00] shuffling away. I'd like to end. Um, I'd like to, uh, finally, um, tell you a little bit about Carmen's Christmas present. I couldn't actually give it to her, and it links him to Carmen as the lady. Carmen's actually the proud owner now of some real estate. I'm not sure if you knew that. Um, but she does own [01:14:30] some real estate now, not in Australia, but she actually owns it in Scotland. And when Carla and I talked about it, I said her presence actually coming over from Scotland. She said, Oh, I'd love a man in a kilt. OK, so the present arrived car never knew what it was going to be, but Actually, it is a section of land in Scotland and, um, I. I bought that for her. And, um, why [01:15:00] I did that is because Scotland has this ancient law that if you own property in Scotland, you can actually give yourself the proper title that comes with owning some land, OK? And that title is lady. OK, so forever. If you're ever sort of hesitant in calling our Carmen lady Carmen do no longer OK. It's now official. Carmen does have the legal title. [01:15:30] Um, she was my friend, and I will always love her Lady Carmen. Thank you. Uh, everybody, um, my name is I was actually born in, and when he come and found out that I was born in and, um, she said, [01:16:00] Oh, this was about 11 years ago. She said, Oh, you born And do you know, I was born in That makes us with our sisters. So we've actually been with our sisters for about the last 18 years. So, um, that's my friendship with Carmen, Unfortunately, um, in the last 12 months and most of you, you do know, uh, Miss went on about the hospital, [01:16:30] and I won't go too deep into everything for Carmen's the last 12 months. But I do want to share something very special with all the lovely people here. Uh, this evening, cars passing, Yes, a beautiful passing. She died very peacefully. I I was I had the opportunity to spend the night with her on her last night. [01:17:00] And can I say, when she passed, the rule was lovely and quiet. It was just her and I, the brother sisters and I realised my my sister had passed. My little sister had actually passed. But can I also say the sun came through her window and the ray [01:17:30] of colours that came into that bedroom into Carmen's room before she was taken? It was a rainbow of colours that came into the room. And that's something I will never forget. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you all for being here today. It's just been a wonderful overwhelming with all the lovely stories. So can I say calm and passed beautifully [01:18:00] and peacefully. I was one of my favourite song that she used to always get us to sing when we were at her bedside. So yeah, are two. [01:18:30] My mhm. OK, the yeah, the [01:19:00] a the in He was he? Yeah. Yeah. [01:19:30] [01:20:00] And delegates from Australia, ladies and gentlemen. And now I'd like to introduce another sister, Carmen, the one and only black Pearl. [01:20:30] Um, I just wanted to say a few acknowledgements and acknowledge the family, Um, Carmen's family, [01:21:00] they do come from, and Carmen used to talk quite a lot about, um I think her greatest love was, um, her mother and the love that her mother gave to her, and therefore she was able to share her love with us. Um, in many different ways, I would like to say that Car's love was enduring in many ways that, um it was as big as the the river from right [01:21:30] down to the city of. So I'm I'm one of those pears from, um I am one of the river sisters. So, um, um, one of the things that carmen used to, um acknowledge in many ways was, um, when she was coming out, [01:22:00] she was one of the She always used to say she was the first Maori drag queen, and, um, in many ways, she she led a path for us. Um, and one of those ultimate things used to say I was able to invite, um, Carmen to come to Auckland for her last visit, and she came to be the judge and queen of the whole universe. Um during that show, she said, Look [01:22:30] what my legacy is not only the queen of the whole universe, but the many flowers that are in the garden of what we call, whether it's gay man, transgender people, lesbians, cross dresses. We're all part of that wonderful garden. And how true to say that in a the performance that I'm going to do and it's it's I was invited to do the song by Jordan. It's [01:23:00] a song that I didn't know very well, but hopefully it'll be OK. Um, it's one of cars Signa signature tunes to begin the beginning. It was bloody hard to get that first song, but I would like to, um, one of the you may look at Carmen and you and she did have a wonderful life. But along that way she did have her struggles, and she did say to me that not everyone loved her. Not everyone was nice to Carmen, [01:23:30] and from time to time, people used to say not so nice things to her on the street. And she always used to say in response, I'll say a little prayer for you And I'm sure is up in heaven saying a little prayer for all of us and also radiating [01:24:00] when they do. [01:24:30] Ladies and gentlemen with S favourite show song. And now, um, we have the family here and I'd like to ask Francis to come and say a few words on behalf of your sister [01:25:00] Glory to God in those times and, uh, peace and goodwill on Earth. But the main thing is, Carmen always said, Let's be good to everybody out there. If you have something and and somebody [01:25:30] wants it, no matter how precious it is to give it, give it And that's how she's always been. It's the way she's brought up being brought up at home, all of us. We were given the same message as, well, One thing I'd like to say this what's and happened over there has been predicted. Now the two Maori name [01:26:00] is uh, uh, I'll come back to that later on, but I really wanted to do that first. Oh, here it is now in the in Maori are means of the future. Two is how you stand within the community. Everything that all [01:26:30] of you had said tonight and means somebody of principle, somebody that's been said from all of you today at how she was, how she is. And even with her passing, we still class her as being alive. You know, there was like and what we call. In other words, it's a person that can see the future. And this woman said that she will be growing [01:27:00] up with all this refinery that you can see that she has been wearing. And, uh, the lady that she took after her was what they call Carmen Miranda. I don't know whether there's some of you know of it, but she was born. She was a Brazilian lady. Yeah, in the 1950 19 forties, 19 fifties, she did all that. [01:27:30] Carmen followed in her footsteps, and in 19 in the 19 forties and fifties, she is. She is the highest paid entertainer and actress in the world. So everything, even at home, you know, she turn around and she wear her nun's clothing, her jewellery go out and make daisy change and wear flowers. All those sorts of things. We have roed inventory out, and she used to, uh, paint them inside, put it on her clothes, [01:28:00] put it in her ears, put it in the hair. And that was what she was like because she was infatuated with this car. And Moran until eventually this is what happened. What you see here is what her dream was. Uh, I can only thank thank you all for all the lads that you've fished out upon her. And, uh, I haven't got much to say, but I thought I'd just say those two things about how her future [01:28:30] was predestined. Uh, the heavenly heavenly wins that wind us from here to to the spiritual world and the heavenly vines that come down from the spirit now. [01:29:00] And so we come in farewell, we return to that spiritual place and dedicated for you of the spiritual world. Uh, there's only one conclusion here. Uh, we all believe that we come back and, uh, are invested again into a human body. So what's this space? It's gonna be interesting to see what she comes back as [01:29:30] cool. Other thing, too. I like to say Say thank you to I remember that he came to and a couple of nice things he was teaching us would be having this tears tears up. And I see this show up on the stage. But he kept on looking at me and I thought, uh, I am in trouble and I looked around and I wondered what the hell it was. You know, that was that. He was interested [01:30:00] in me what it was. But I found that I had looked around the room and I noticed that I was the only one that was doing the press ups on my fingers. Yeah, that's it. Thank you, everybody. Fiona. Well, what a night. And it's hot with weight and a good weight. [01:30:30] And we've come to the end and we've met some new people and found new things. Um, there's a couple of things. Um, it's great that we have the car memorial trust. We also have others. Of course we have. We have who do fantastic work over the years. We, of course, have Chrissy Chrissy down in Wellington. Um, we're also there's a few workers here. I mean, when I say sorry in the have to be careful with that word, don't you. [01:31:00] There are some people here who worked in the original coffee lounge and balcony. Could you put your hands up or stand up? Even better, Lola could stand. This is no loner with the most glamorous, glamorous, beautiful creature You would wear sequin gowns and rubber gloves while doing your dishes. It's really good you girls came, you know, [01:31:30] because as time goes on, we sort of forget things. Do you want to say something wrong? Yes. Come on. Come on. You. Yeah. Deal and come. And Carmen would send me a birthday card like tea. I've got all these birthday cards. [01:32:00] But could the names Meka she had to put a surname on and she'd go to Mr Meka? Gus. And it was really sweet because she couldn't imagine someone not having a surname. And that's and you remember she took you somewhere to eat. It was a cup of tea and a sandwich. And in her mind, there was always a Hilton this imagination, this life, that we can imagine the most beautiful things without having the materialistic values behind it. And some of us here helped raise money for her scooter, didn't we? [01:32:30] Who's here? I know Julian is here, here from the foundation and Wayne and a whole bunch. We raised money for her last scooter, and we thought we'd do this because she needed a scooter. And I did the Mardi Gras with you, wasn't it? A couple of years ago. And there's a shot of Carmen. She gets on the scooter. I thought she'd go slowly. I'm running down, you know, chasing this woman going, Come on. And then she was bored and she tried to go over the barrier and the police went to stop her. But then they thought it was calm and And what did they do? [01:33:00] Open the barrier and moved 100 people apart. And so I'm walking through going, Yeah, that's how you do it. Oh, I love that. And she she always said to me, I know she loved you know, all these singers. But she said to me years ago, she said the song she wanted me to sing for her, and I never actually got to when we did the musical or the Barbara Streisand songs. That's why I've done Barbra Streisand. So to finish the night before, how would come up? And [01:33:30] I would like for Carmen. Thank you, Peter. Think is change is [01:34:00] down. [01:34:30] If you know it, sing along [01:35:00] will make each other first every day of the beginning. They [01:35:30] [01:36:00] as [01:36:30] in thank you all for coming. We're now gonna close and we're gonna be going up to Cairo. Please join Cindy and Robina and all the team up at DNA. [01:37:00] Uh, the will be around. Do you want to say something? No, you moved. That was OK. You are her sister. You can do whatever you like even press up. So we would like to close down on the stage please. This one There's gonna be a TV special tonight on at 10 o'clock about this. Is that right? Or Come on, come one. Sorry, Just so you know 10 o'clock tonight Tonight? [01:37:30] I don't know The Channel 19 on the Valley and time. Ok? Oh, [01:38:00] now it's on. And later, Uh, come here. Here, Come here. [01:38:30] Uh, I have [01:39:00] you have to run your hooky. He did [01:39:30] or or come here, catch it and more. [01:40:00] And they would either hurt it or hurt it or cow quickly. What? Ok, ma be And [01:40:30] a form will share wealth to come in And your nephew that are here. Given that we've called them into our gathering, we need to send them away with dignity and respect. And so the final hymn will be the, um, the full stop to our [01:41:00] at the end of that hymn. There will be one final, very brief. Uh, that will set us ready to enjoy the rest of our night. The have, um, asked that everyone be outstanding and join in the singing of the him and their moment to [01:41:30] [01:42:00] [01:42:30] [01:43:00] [01:43:30] [01:44:00] Yeah. What? Yeah, [01:44:30] I would.

IRN: 459
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/carmen_memorial_wellington.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003908
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089202
TITLE: Carmen Rupe memorial, Wellington
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Celia Wade-Brown; Dana de Milo; Georgina Beyer; Grant Robertson; Jurgen Hoffman; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Pasi Daniels; Phil Rogers; Robin Waerea; Tom Stacey; Trevor Morley
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1970s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Bistro bar; Carmen Rupe; Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Celia Wade-Brown; Dana de Milo; Dominion (newspaper); Georgina Beyer; Grant Robertson; Jurgen Hoffman; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Mark Williams; Pasi Daniels; Phil Rogers; Robin Waerea; Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar; Sydney; Tavern bar (Royal Oak Hotel); The Balcony / Le Balcon; The Purple Onion; Tom Stacey; Trevor Morley; Wellington; drag; newspapers; police; transgender; vice; vice squad
DATE: 22 January 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Scotty and Mal's Cocktail Bar, 176 Cuba Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Audio from the memorial to Carmen held at Scotty and Mal's Cocktail and Lounge Bar.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi. Good evening, guys. It's good to see you all here this evening. Fantastic. And what a great turn out that it is. Indeed. We're here tonight to pay a little bit of homage to a fantastic lady who, um, was a major part in all of our lives. And I think we've all got stories that will be told here tonight, Um, to our invited guests, the fabulous her worship of the mayor, Celia Wade Brown. Good evening, darling. Thank you for being here, taking the time out, the sitting member for Wellington Central. [00:00:30] And I'm sure it is going to be our first gay prime minister. Grant Robinson. Oh, you know what they say Grandparents see, be the tree grow. And, of course, Georgina by a member of Parliament and former show girl. Thank you. Tonight is by when we say memorial service. It is by no means going to have in much or any religious content. Unless you want to bring it in yourself. Because we're not really quite sure that's the sort of girl Carmen [00:01:00] was. OK, But I'll tell you what, as a young man, um, and I'll just get one of my little flighty stories out of the way Nice and early. Before I invite our invite guests up to do some. Speaking of which, then we will be having an open mic night. Um, when I was 16 years of age, I left school at the age of 15 and I marched out of home when I was 15 and I moved into Wellington and I met a fabulous bunch of people on the street. And, um, I discovered the royal oak, the royal Oak, the infamous bistro bar and [00:01:30] the tavern bar. Absolutely fantastic. My working life, my working life began on the street as well. And of course, in the old days when the bistro closed in those days, it was a 10 p. m. closing. We did a girl go. So we all went to Carmen's Coffee lounge and it was truly fantastic. It was a place where we all felt safe and secure, and Carmen looked after us. She took us all under her wing, and, uh, she would jack us up with the occasional client to help us help us pay our rent. And, [00:02:00] uh, I enjoyed many, many a times. It was some of the most fabulous whiskey coffees that you could ever imagine the best toasted sandwiches in town and some quite high flying clientele. Later on, I met a man, gave all that up, and then Carmen discovered that after all these years, there was a lot of gay boys going there and taking away a bit of the business from the girls. So she opened up. She she bought a little coffee bar we didn't buy, rented a little coffee space where she called triangles on the corner of major [00:02:30] banks and, um, just across the road from the Embassy Theatre going up major Bank Street. I think it's Hazel's restaurant or something now, but that was the first. I think that's probably my branch out into hospitality. Was working this little bar trying to, um, make the same famous sandwiches that Carmen did? But I can tell you right now they were nowhere near as good. But we've moved on, and all these years later I was I. I, um, I remember going to Carmen's farewell ball at the, um, majestic centre, [00:03:00] and I was right, and, you know, you know how you have an icon when you're growing up and you've got people that made a big impact on your life. And I, um, still had the invitation, but I couldn't find it. But I did have out of The Dominion Post from 31 years ago. Carmen's farewell. And, um, I'd just like to read a little bit of this because I think it's really quite amazing because some of you people are in the room, and I just want to tell you how the DEA Post described you all. Some of [00:03:30] Wellington's more colourful figures gathered last night in a glittering farewell to the most famous Drake Queen of them all, Carmen. More than 250 show people club people, not a lot of society friends let their hair down at the Majestic at a dinner and dance, which cost thousands of dollars. About 50 people anxious. The tickets had to be turned away. The guest of honour were pleasant in the black supply. In the description herself, a very expensive black evening gown was studded, beaded, glittering [00:04:00] in very expensive jewels, and with a higher than usual, she arrived in a shaker driven limousine. The party dubbed a salute to Carmen Herald in the transvestites departure. Later that week. I'm going to Australia first for a minor operation, the usual thing, just a little patch up, Car said last night. And it's off to the night spots of London for a year's working holiday, seeking a singing career in Cabaret. I think I'll do well. They have a lot of impersonators and people like that. In London, [00:04:30] I class myself as a coloured impersonator in Wellington. Carmen is known as a copy bar proprietor as a one time mural candidate, but not as a cabaret singer. If the campaign succeeds to shift some weight succeeds. I'm sorry, succeeds. Carmen hopes to try out some, um, exotic belly dancing with snakes, and he will also visit Amsterdam. When he's a cousin, he hopes to return to New Zealand. A new idea. The back of this show. Well, we all know that car really didn't make it pass. I think she [00:05:00] sort of went back to her room, and, um, and when I say that, I say that lightly. But enough about me. It's great to see you all here, and I would really like to, um, invite some, um, fantastic guest speakers up now, just to say a few words. And then later on, after this, we are going to be having a bit of an open mic night where friends, you can get up and say it and and re and reminisce with your stories of, um, the magic moments that come and created in your life because I know that she created, um, 1000 moments for me, and I'll never forget [00:05:30] them. And I think we have truly lost a, um, a top icon. But right now, could you please put your hands together on stage? Um, MP for Wellington Central and the deputy leader of the opposition, Mr. Grant Ronson. Oh, thank goodness. You're all in the dark. Uh, thanks, Mel. And, um, thank you so much for putting on this event. I think, um, everybody, when they heard of of Carmen's passing in December, was hoping that there will be some occasion in Wellington [00:06:00] uh, that we could come together and have a chat about her. And, um, there's nowhere more appropriate than S and MS with the lights low. But it feels appropriate. Um, I don't I didn't know Carmen terribly well. And I, I think I'm not going to speak for very long, particularly with Georgie here to be able to to give some memories, um, that she can. But I wanted to just say a few words in a sense, on a on a political front about Carmen, because she was a very political person in all senses of that word. And there's actually a a political story from her early years that possibly people [00:06:30] don't know a lot about. Most of you will know, um, that Carmen was was was born as Trevor, and and, uh, another person who was living in was a man named Colin Mallard. And he was a businessman in the town of and, um he knew. And in fact, he, um, taught in a school for a little while and he taught, uh, Trevor Rupe and Colin, um clearly was retaken with, um Trevor Rope because he named his first born Trevor Mallard. [00:07:00] That is, in fact, that is, in fact, a true story. Because many years later, um, Colin Mallard was walking down, uh, Vivian Street with a group of businessmen friends in Wellington. And Carmen threw open the door of the coffee lounge and shouted Colin, Colin and she was in her full finery. And it took Mr Mallard many days to explain to his business colleagues that really it was from Tom. He knew that. [00:07:30] But she, um Carmen, obviously, as as everybody knows in a political sense, was known for the tilt at the meal and I I toyed with her slogan, Get in behind for my 2008 election decided It probably wasn't what I was needing at that point. But, um, that campaign obviously, um, thrust coming even more into the spotlight as Georgina and I were just discussing it was as much as anything about getting more publicity for her and the the many ventures that she, uh, was part of, uh, in Wellington. Another political, um, thing that [00:08:00] she did was that she was actually called before Parliament's privileges committee. And now that I'm in Parliament, um, I realise just what that means. The Privileges committee almost never meets. It's very hard to actually get it to meet the last person who, um dominated. It was Winston Peters so up on that level for, uh, but she was brought there because allegedly Well, she not allegedly she had actually said that, um uh, some members of parliament might have actually been gay or lesbian. Absolutely shocking thought at the time. And it was sir Robert Muldoon who caused her, um, to, uh, to be [00:08:30] called to the Previces committee. Uh, which is ridiculous, that hypocritical little man, because he was the one who pounded Colin Moyle, um, out of Parliament by making all kinds of innuendos about it. But Carmen went to the privileges committee, stood up to them and and posed for a remarkable photo out on the steps of Parliament, which is one of the great memories of Parliament. Um, we showed, um, uh, car around parliament a couple of times when she came back to New Zealand, most recently to the Rainbow Room at Parliament, and she was retaken by the fact that there was a picture of her [00:09:00] in the Rainbow Room at Parliament, so she had finally made it inside the walls of parliament as well. But overall, I mean, the main thing II I think of Carmen is of somebody who broke ground, and and there always has to be someone who's first. Someone who's prepared to put their hand up and stand up for who they are and When Carmen came back here from Australia, opened the coffee lounge, opened the balcony, opened many other places. As Mel's already said, along with people like, um, Jackie Grant and Chrissy. Um, we took, uh, it was it was an incredibly, [00:09:30] um, vibrant time in the city. It's what opened up the tolerance and diversity not only for the trans community, I think, but also more broadly for the gay and lesbian and bisexual community of Wellington. And I think that's the tribute to Carmen, that she was the person who did that person who went to prison, a person who had to constantly battle discrimination throughout their life but never, ever took a single step backwards. Um, even she was in the Mobility scooter. She never took a single step backwards in later years. Um, and that's the kind of spirit that she brought [00:10:00] to the city. Um, she's someone that that I think we can all look at in in the Rainbow Communities in Wellington and say That's the person who lead the way, lead the charge and and made and helped make Wellington the great city than it is today. So those are some of my thoughts about Carmen. And so I think we should remember her today as that kind of person. And I just really want to finish by saying thank you. Thank you very much. OK, now, a, uh, former [00:10:30] showgirl, a former mayor of council and a former member of Parliament. Ladies and gentlemen, Georgina Bowen. So I can't take her. Um, you didn't need me much. I Grant you've been You've been reading my speeches. I'm getting it out. Look, uh, yeah, we're here to have a celebration rather than being incredibly mournful when car passed, um, last [00:11:00] December probably wouldn't have been entirely unexpected that if she was gonna go. It's about this time of of her life. And what a fabulous, fantastic, interesting life she led that had a social change element to it. But I don't think she ever understood how important a figure she was in that herself. Such as her humbleness, gracious, hospitable. A warmth about her [00:11:30] that endeared people to her of whatever, um, ilk of life they came from she poach borax. If you like at the establishment in many ways, in order that she could be who she was and be happy to live in her own skin. Yeah, a little bit risque, but nothing, you know takes two to tango, you know? And, uh, not all of those people out there were sort of, [00:12:00] uh, a social deviance. In some ways, they were sort of your husbands and your wives, and she knew that even Parliament knew that. And, um, in some respects, you know whether or not she knew that rich her brushes with the law legendary. I think some lawyers made a bit of a name for themselves. Sometimes keep the truth newspaper, I think, taking over as a financially viable entity for quite some time with a number of, if not front page and certainly page three shots. [00:12:30] Who else could go to the races and stand next to the governor General and drop a top so that cavernous cleavage of police could be shared by the nation exhibitionist? You bet, baby. She had a business. It was a unique business. She had a niche, and within that niche that encompassed her love of entertainment, her love of her showgirl life. And we see some of it here behind us. Yes, that's Carmen. [00:13:00] I came to know her in the late 19 seventies, about 1976. And I flattered with meal and that very flat he was talking about, along with our other flatmate, R, who did the sweet transvestite act at the balcony. Um, in its dying years, I suppose, at that time, they had groups like Arthur Baton and Red Mole and people like, I bet we doing gigs there. Um, toward the end of it, the names of Carol the Winter Queens like that Vicky Crystal, Um, a whole sort of range of girls. Showgirls [00:13:30] quality girls come and only wanted quality. His car always came out for the art of poses at the end, which I think that photograph over there, uh, depicts, uh, pretty well. I couldn't possibly do justice to all the people that have passed through and been touched by Carmen and her establishments. Um, it's been mentioned the safety in some respects that she provided for the fringes of society, the margins that lived in and around Wellington as it happened to be here. Her history didn't [00:14:00] just exist here in Wellington. It was a huge for us here. Added to a rather colourful um bohemian Cuba Street represents it pretty damn well, um, and and carries on that sort of nature of Wellington, Um, that existed the Orient. You know, there's all sorts of little clubs and cafes and things that started in that era of a very conservative New Zealand. So for someone like Carmen to come out and find a gimmick is what she [00:14:30] got on to. Fantastic. In it came with her persona, the persona of Carmen, the three wigs and a couple of hairpieces, jewellery and everything dripping over her. That deep plunging cleavage, her via Lucas gowns that she would wear. Or someone had flipped her something from a Benson and Hedges Award just so that she could wear it down the street and got noticed she would leave. She would leave her apartment or her flat. Uh, down there in Vivian Street, you people [00:15:00] would almost set their watches by it some time and wait. It was almost like a wait to see this fabulous galleon sailing down Cuba Street, Cuba mall owing to everybody that came by acknowledging Hello, A warm hello for everyone. A gesture that every retail shop owner along this particular stretch, uh, would have known when Carmen was out tour buses used to pass by in some respects, and the hut boys and the boys [00:15:30] of the boys that would come into town for the night out and they'd all go to the bistro or simulate that. And many things did close early and they would shoot up and could do the puff from the bistro up Street and all the other pubs that were up this way until they hit the red light area, The club exotic with its 10 blazing over there in the corner, the purple onion down the road with that beautiful. You know, I'm sort of trying to paint a picture here of some of the colour that we no longer have. [00:16:00] The last vestige that I see is that neon signs, stripper signs still hang on the corner of the old exotic building over the road. It sort of is something that we can look and go. Oh, yeah, And that used to flick on and off. Carmen provided for me, at least as a new young queen in 1976 or so. Not only my, um, opening up that there were such people that exist and that I could perhaps pursue all the and the things that I'd dreamed about being a woman [00:16:30] and wanting to be a girl when I went to the balcony with Reon, who was doing the sweet transvestite act there, and there were these beautiful, fabulous looking women who had hugely deep voices and just as deeply dirty minds, I yes, let's not forget those who exploited Carmen's good nature sometimes. And, um, you know, those people, I hope, can feel a little [00:17:00] bad about what they might have done in those days. However, you know, because I think if you'd only asked she would have helped in some way or another, you might have had to work for it. Speaking of some of those characters that worked for her even down in the old coffee lounge, Do you remember the exotic minarets, that very colourful facade? I don't know what painter did it, um, but it just fitted the perfect exotica, the calm and wanted the Chinese lanterns, red and orange with the big tassel coming down Mame, Carly paintings on the wall and all of that kind [00:17:30] of and all of those sort of velvet. Well, remember those velvet paintings, all of that kind of exotic. She had big tapestries, wall tapestries that would hang up on the walls and this poky little coffee lunch that she had and the little sort of kitchen out the back, which only had the toilet out the back, no particular back door. So everyone had to file through the kitchen to get out there. And who was it that stood there in an Audin hip burn dress? Red wig, um, high heels gloves up [00:18:00] to here with plastic washing dishwashing gloves over the top of those but Lola, poor old Lola, who got the back end of Carmen's tongue from time to time. That's because she, Carma might have got a little frustrated with the customer out the front or some drunken drag queen or whatever. You know, she never really drank. She never took drugs. She never smoked a cigarette, and yet she liked to offer hospitality as best she could to all of those who went there. She did deal with the high [00:18:30] brows and the low brows and her times. I remember it, and, um, it was nothing to watch car and come bursting out the front just to do a little walk up and down in front of the coffee lounge. Or when she later moved to where the evergreen, where it became the evergreen where she was there briefly, um, after the original coffee lounge next to the Salvation Army citadels. Can you imagine what they encountered when at five o'clock on Sunday morning, as the Salvation Army personnel [00:19:00] were preparing for the day's worship, the creatures that would come out of that, um, that, um, establishment down there. But Carmen had a place upstairs. She gave me my first client. I'd always wondered how calm could walk in the front door of the place and then disappear when there was no back door to the place until she offered me my first client just to help me out and needed help. Um, and she sent him out to the front door and down the alleyway beside the old coffee lounge to the, um, external [00:19:30] door to her upstairs apartment and pull back the tapestry inside for me to whip in so that I could meet him in the little internal door that went upstairs. And then we rendezvous and go into one of her exotic rooms that she had up there she was apparently once famous for having a coffin in her apartment, you know, because she was into the occult for a certain period of time. Look, I could go on and on, and I don't know if I touched on about some of those things, but I guess I'll just conclude by saying she was a force a tour de force, [00:20:00] frankly, that existed here as a business person who not only had a coffee lounge, strip club, tea rooms, brothels, And I don't know if the people in the town house would understand what went on there in all of those days. Um, and and she touched many people, I think just to let you talk a moment on her running for the Wellington meal bid, which truly, you know, she was a self promoter of the greatest great, fantastic [00:20:30] entrepreneur. And even though she wouldn't have had a clue how to run a city, um, she would have given her a damn. But she doesn't want her to wear the jewels. And she would have had to have had the gowns to made to go with it. You know, she would have done the figure head stuff all you know, quite happily, but actually running with him, she probably would have had a difficulty. But that's where Bob and I don't know if you're here, Bob Jones, But, um, that's where perhaps they might [00:21:00] have been having. It was a wonderful Well, you know, we might giggle at it now. It was brave. It was sort of courageous. And, um, And it and it pushed some buttons for people, Um, who probably never thought that no such thing would happen. So I'm pleased to be the next generation after her who has benefited from the legacy of what she's done. I'm just but one. There are many, uh, but politically, uh, to actually, she sort of put the hairline fracture [00:21:30] in the pink ceiling. And then I went ahead and smashed it, and, um, and and got it. And, um, it was a, uh, you know, proud to be able to say we delivered your prostitution reform that you talked about back in the 19 seventies. Not simply because you did then, uh, but because it did come to pass. You had vision. Um, in some senses, as far as homosexual law reform was concerned, Yes, I mean, you know, it came to pass. And if it wasn't for figures like [00:22:00] her at that time who were visible out there being who she was and happy to live in her skin to then pass that on to all of us in the diversity of the rainbow community as an inspiration, Um, for us to sort of go Well, you know, And we loved her. And New Zealand loved her. And as it's turned out, so does Australia. And, um, but her time at the fun stage. Sorry. Makes her her her, um, here, uh, with us and so much [00:22:30] of an important, um, you know, part of her life, um, was spent here. I often wonder if she would actually like to come home to the end of her life more permanently. But there wasn't a lot of security offering for her here, So perhaps we need to think about things like that. Um, for some of our, um, you know, uh, those of us who are, you know well, not me. Um, you know, But who are getting to that age where there's a generation passing on, which means an end of an era? Um uh, I. I believe that [00:23:00] te papa need to go over to Sydney and pick up her room at her Riley Street flat and just transport it as it is back there. The memorabilia for those of you who haven't had the opportunity to ever, um, go to visit her there if you ever did the memorabilia she has there is an a snapshot of an incredible piece of social history in New Zealand. She is iconic on that regard, highly respected by many people. Yes, sideways, glanced at but never shied [00:23:30] away from, I mean, to bridge that gap for us from one person. Um uh was quite remarkable. And not just for transgender. I don't think that word was invented in her day. You know, they talked about in that article drag queens and female impersonators, and that's how they were sort of considered. Um, she was a lot more than that. And what a wonderful persona. Um, just a parting shot to the politicians. [00:24:00] No statue to blanket men. Yes, to Carmen. You. We got that. We started this and you hadn't arrived yet. But Trevor Morley, are you in the house? Yeah. Trevor, would you like to pop in and say for your words, please. We've got, uh this man is absolutely amazing. This is one of the gentlemen, uh, a retired police officer. And I'm sure he's gonna enlighten you some fabulous stories [00:24:30] about his time with Carlin. Welcome on board, Ma. It's good to see you here again. Thanks very much for the introduction. Um, some of you may recall if you're at, uh, Carmen's birthday a few years ago, Um, myself and my sergeant, uh, made a presentation to Carmen. I'd love to know what happened to the Purple helmet. Perhaps perhaps it proposes Georgina [00:25:00] in the flat in in Kings Cross. But look, I, I just want to say a couple of words, uh, about Carmen, and I'm here from a different perspective, of course, than any of you because I in the sixties and seventies, I was a detective on the vice squad. And it's perhaps significant to note that in those days there were vice spots in Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch and Dunedin. But times [00:25:30] have changed. And now there is not one vice squad in one city or town anywhere in New Zealand. And I think one of the reasons for that is because of the changes in the law relating to VI and morality. And one of the reasons they've been those changes, as Georgina pointed out, is because of people like, um and without wishing to sound flippant. Carmen was one of those people who genuinely had the courage of her convictions. And there are very, [00:26:00] very few people of whom you can say that. What I do want to say about Carmen is that in all my dealings with her and my sergeant Paul fitters, who went on to lead the committee to oversee the introduction of the prostitution law reform, we both said, and I said it at the time of her birthday. If everybody we dealt with on the vice squad was as pleasant to deal with as Carmen always was, then our job and the job and the people we were dealing [00:26:30] with would have been a lot lot better. I notice, uh, young Tom in the audience here, Uh uh, now Mr Stacey's son and, uh, whenever we needed to talk to Carvin and she wanted legal, it was vice. It was a quick call to Roy Stacey and he came down and we would sit around and sort out whatever the particular matter was. But Carmen was genuinely a nice person to deal with. Uh, despite the fact that she and I shared the same [00:27:00] first name which lead to some hilarity, of course, from time to time. And I just quickly relate this story. It wasn't very long after I'd been transferred onto the vice squad. That, of course, uh, Carmen's friends and associates got to know that this new detective was Detective Trevor Morley. So it didn't take long for me to walk into the coffee bar on Vivian Street and through the noise and the smoke and the [00:27:30] haze, you would hear perhaps a slightly high pitched voice call out Trevor. And Carmen, of course, would turn around to find out who was using her real name, because that was something you didn't do. I always called her car and she called me Detective Morley, and the first names were never used. And to use her name in that situation was terrible. And then through the haze, you would hear Trevor only to make Carmen angrier until she finally [00:28:00] worked out who the culprit was. One of her friends or associates, of course. So she would front up to them and wave that big hand under their nose and accuse them of using her name, which she never did. And in sort of mock solemnity, they would say, No, no, no, no. I was merely calling out to Detective Morley. I became, if you excuse the phrase, the butt of some jokes. But look, Carmen did in fact have the courage [00:28:30] of her convictions. She was a lovely person to deal with. I do believe that because of what she did, what she stood for and what she was prepared to do, that there were changes to the vice squad law to the vice laws, Uh, and that adults now can, uh, as, um, Pierre Trudeau said, uh, get the state out of the bedrooms of the nation because it has no place there. And I think he was very forward thinking like carbon was very forward thinking. And, uh, you [00:29:00] know, I'm just pleased to have been able to come along tonight and just explain to you from my perspective, which might sound a bit unusual being a former police officer who arrested her several times to say she was a great person to deal with. Wellington is a is is Is is the loser for her going Because she will not. The likes of her will not walk these streets again. And Wellington is a sadder place for it. And, uh, I just want to let you know that even someone with my background can appreciate [00:29:30] a person such as Carmen when you come to deal with it. And just thanks very much for the opportunity. I would like to uh, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome, um, you worship the mayor City, Wade Brown. It's good to be here to celebrate somebody's [00:30:00] life at the end of a very colourful life. A life that was spent thoroughly enjoying herself as and many other people, too, as well as doing good work for other people and the way that she supported people the way that she drove the way forward. So that today you can be any gender, any combination. But of course, you can't smoke in the bath. So isn't it interesting the changes that we've seen [00:30:30] over that time? I came to Wellington in 1983 and I was really quite surprised at how narrow the views of some of Wellington's society were at those in those times. So I'm really proud to be the mayor of a diverse city of a city that actually values diversity. It doesn't just tolerate diversity, but it thinks it's a really good thing, whether that's culturally and personal expression or as a thing [00:31:00] in the economic world where there is so much gay tourism, pink tourism, transgender tourism and also creativity, I mean, what more creative on average group of people. So it's been interesting, and I'm sure I'll hear when I listen to other people's stories learning a little bit more about Carmen. I met Carmen at her birthday party in Courtney Place, and it was wonderful to meet somebody who wanted to be mayor and was actually [00:31:30] so warm and so well loved. And I just hope I'm not quite the standout nonconformist, but I like to be able not to conform, if only in some of the transport ways of this city. And, um, I think she again set a path for people to be valued for who they are for who they want to be, not just for fitting in So Hari Hari Hari, Carmen [00:32:00] Thank you, though. Ok, that's fantastic. And, Scottie, you haven't had to notice Ricky Mama in the crowd, have you? No, he's not here. That's really a shame. Actually, we had planned to look upstairs, too, and he's not up there up there. Um, we had the privilege of, uh, back in 1986 of doing Carmen's 70th birthday down at the, um, at the boat ship. And it was truly fantastic night. And, uh, we had planned on getting Ricky here and he agreed to do it, but unfortunately, he's not been able to make it by the looks of it. [00:32:30] Um and but we got I said, I said to Ricky, um, you know, Carmen is such a strong character, and I've never seen her cry. I want to make her cry and he said, How do you gonna do that? And I said, I want you to get up and sing one in a million. And as we kicked off the show, um, Ricky walked on stage, spoke very briefly to Maori to Carmen, and we had said to her, Carmen, um, Carmen was under the belief that she was coming back from Australia to celebrate her birthday. [00:33:00] But what she didn't know was that she was going to be her birthday and a celebrity roast where we got people like Trevor Morley and lots of other people that have been through in and out of her life. And, um, and could relate stories about her in front of her. And it was truly a fantastic night. And and so I mean, right, come on, I wanna make a cry I've never seen her cry And we got Ricky to get up and see Um And we said, Carmen, there's 1000 people in this room that absolutely love you and adore you. And this is what they feel about You and Ricky got up and sung that beautiful song. One of a million. [00:33:30] And I tell you what, it took about 30 fucking seconds. Tears flat out. Great on. OK, we haven't got Ricky here. So now we've got the chance. Um, no. Actually, I'm gonna get one more speaker. I do have the and Trevor morning was just saying Roy Stacey I. I had the privilege of meeting Roy on a couple of occasions. We've got Roy's son Tom here, who's got restaurant down in the street. And Tom has got a couple of little stories that he'd like to share with you. So, Tom, if you can pop down here, mate, and just, uh, add a few words about Roy and, [00:34:00] um, how they actually met. Well, um, thank you. Uh, yeah. For those of you who don't know me, Tom, Tom Stacey is my name. Um, I am the son of Roy Stacey, who was, uh, camera's lawyer from, uh, a hell of a lot longer before if I knew that she was coming. I tell you a story tonight. Uh, that [00:34:30] is that Probably not a lot of people know, uh, a woman by the name of Connie Shearer features very, very briefly in Carmen's book. Connie Shearer was the head dietician of Wellington Hospital, and she had a young 17 year old boy from, uh, king country working in the kitchen there. And I should also mention that that, uh, Connie was, uh, living in companion and lover of my father, [00:35:00] um, and and and and a saint to my woman because she said she she was an influential person in, but, um, Connie came home one night and and said to said to Roy, um, there's a young fellow who's just getting a bit of harassment, Probably from Trevor Morley in the place. But, um uh, and I'll come to you later. Trevor. Um uh. But, uh, so Roy Roy was a extraordinary [00:35:30] sort of liberal sort of guy years ahead of his time. And so he said to Connie and I and I remember I was only a small boy and, uh said, Bring up, you know, Well, I'll have a chat to him and make sure he make sure he's OK. And, uh, so a couple of nights later, Connie turned up with this very effeminate 17 year old lad from King Country. Uh, obviously gay, um, [00:36:00] but without a without a society to practise it, uh, legitimately and, um, and Roy just Roy. And he just sort of, I don't know, just Roy Roy identified with the right of everybody to practise whatever they want to do, providing no one else gets hurt, you know? And, uh, so that was the beginning of a legend. And and and and I, uh, I was there as a as a small, impressionable [00:36:30] lad. Well, not that you know um and, uh, and not that impressive, but, uh, and and I was impressed that it didn't It didn't, uh, it hasn't taken it. Right. Um, so but, um but But that was the that was the start of a relationship. Uh, that went right through because, um, uh, Stacey Gibson, as they were in those days, uh, leased organised the lease for Carmen's coffee bar. Uh, Roy [00:37:00] appeared for Carmen in a couple of trials. The Carol, The winter trial. Uh, which Trevor I'll talk to you about in a minute. Um um and also before the parliamentary privileges committee, Uh, where she said that one in five MP S was homosexual. Um, she got that wrong. Um, Anyway, um, two points I want to make [00:37:30] is that is that we have a salute. Common. Uh, but I don't think the evening is appropriate without mentioning, and I'm obviously biassed, but II, I think my father needs to mention, um, to appear for someone like Carmen, Um, with the stigmas and everything that existed in the late sixties and early seventies in this in this society, you know, took an enormous amount of courage and people like [00:38:00] the law society and all the rest of you know, and I don't think there's any doubt amongst people who who know that, uh, Roy was probably the best criminal defence barrister that this country's ever seen, and he never became a QC. And he never became anything else. Purely, I think, because he did things like stick up for and other people. But, um, he was just he was just years ahead of his time. And I don't [00:38:30] mean to to to diffuse from Carmen tonight in in talking about him. But he is part of the picture, right? And, uh So, um, the other thing I would say about, uh, about, uh, about is, uh, in those early seventies, you know, when you call them the coffee bar. It was just amazing. You you you It was It was a little bit like, sort of a a sort of a liquorice all sauce, wasn't it? You'd go through that door and there was a There was this huge wooden bar, remember? [00:39:00] You know, all this bloody bar back and and you and and you'd go and and you might you might find a whole lot of people in sort of jeans and, you know, denims and this and that. Or you might find a whole lot of people in black tie having on the way home from a wall or to them because it was the only decent place that you could get coffee, you know? And it'd say in those days, what, 11 o'clock midnight at night, You know. So, Trevor, just if Trevor Trevor is still here, I [00:39:30] just want I just want to qualify, uh, one thing, and and and and And it is something that's never been recorded to or recorded legally. The the the famous trial, which was a groundbreaking trial. Um, the Carol de Winter. Carmen, you remember that? I'm just speaking to the black shadow here. Um, but, uh, the classic was was it was was it the, uh, the crown? And it was a mark of respect to [00:40:00] Carmen and Carol de Winter. Uh, and also, I think Trevor and you may very well want to confirm this later on. Might have been in respect of Roy as well, but the crown took a dollar each way. They in those days. Uh, it was charged with sort of and I. I don't know whether I've got the wording right. But it was soliciting a a male soliciting with the intent to do an indecent act upon another male or a woman soliciting. And so they [00:40:30] took a, you know, joint charge, right? The the conviction that it was handed down was to Carol. Winter was a woman, and, uh, it was probably Roy's greatest trial. Um, he did many, but it was It was It was probably probably one of his greatest, but, uh, am I right there, Trevor or I got if I got that in the gist of it, right. Oh, here we go. I I'd just like to clarify what [00:41:00] what Tom's been saying because it's actually a very, very fascinating and interesting legal point. And if you go back in time at the time, this case with Carmen and Carol De Winter, uh, came to trial in the Supreme Court, as it was then called a male, could not be in law. A prostitute, only a female could be a prostitute. So when we arrested Carmen and Carol de Winter and charged Carmen, [00:41:30] uh, with the offence of brothel keeping, and Carol was a party to that offence, We initially, of course, thought that Carol was a lady. But then as the investigation progressed, we discovered that she had been born a man which immediately threw, if you will, a spanner in the works or or or some other part of the event. [00:42:00] So one of the first things we had to do was to determine um, Carol's, uh, sexual identity. This is called DNA and that sort of thing. And one of the first things you do from a legal point of view to prove someone sex is you call their birth mother to give evidence that yes, that's my child. And the child that was born was a male or a female. So I spoke to Carol about that aspect of her life and she said, Well, I don't know who my mother is because I was adopted, which through a another spanner in the works. So [00:42:30] we eventually traced her her her birth mother. Uh, and then we had to call a complicated, uh, lot of evidence about what in those days was the difference between a male and a female. And it wasn't just your genes. It was to do with things like that. the width of your shoulders compared to your hips, the shape of your pubic hair and all sorts of things. But the the the interesting fact of the case was that the jury found both Carmen and Carol guilty. So what that, [00:43:00] in effect said, was that, yes, a man under New Zealand law can in fact, be a prostitute. And I think that there was another little piece of the jigsaw, another step up the ladder that said, these laws have got to be changed. So in a somewhat perverse way, that conviction helped to create a situation where the politicians eventually said, and the weight of public opinion said, Let change these laws. Let's do what Pierre Trudeau the then I think he [00:43:30] was then the prime minister of Canada and get the state out of the bedrooms of the nation and that nothing else Both Carmen and Carol should be congratulated for, as I said before the courage of their convictions. Thank you. Um, that that was Trevor boy, who was my guest speaker. Ladies and gentlemen, um, I think, obviously, um, uh, the messages across Carmen was was an [00:44:00] icon to the to the city. Um her likes will not be seen again unless Georgie does the same thing. And the the point I really want to make is that is that, uh, um in losing the likes of Carmen losing the likes of Roy Stacey 10 years ago, uh, losing the likes of various colourful people. You know, the city loses a little bit of fabric, and it [00:44:30] is up to us who remain to keep that fabric. Um, the only thing I would say in passing and and the woman, as I mentioned right at the start of my address, uh, is very very dear to me. She wasn't my mother. She was just a a person who had a immense, immense sort of influence on me. Uh, Connie Shero, you know, without Connie Shearer, Carmen quite conceivably could not have existed. So when you're having a drink later [00:45:00] on, you know, grab it and think Connie Shearer. And now there's a name. You listen it to her. Thank you very much. Oh, it's quite amazing. Really. I I've just been sitting there and I was listening to Trevor saying that, you know, it's quite, you know, it's impossible for a male to be a prostitute. I remember Queen Victoria well through the history book saying that it was impossible for a woman to be a lesbian. Haven't time has changed. Um, I'm glad we had the pest board. [00:45:30] I was a bit there. OK, this is there are our special speeches to the ladies and gentlemen friends of we'd like you to invite. We'd like you to invite you. Now, if you've got a colourful story that you remember, Carmen, we've got lots of Carmen's old friends and yourself up there and some beautiful friends of Carmen's here. Please take the time to, um, pop up here and share your stories with us. And, um please just introduce yourself when you do do this so that everybody else in the room who may not know you does know who you are. So please, ladies and gentlemen, open mic, Please [00:46:00] come and join us on the floor. We've got a come on put together with this gentleman. This is the fabulous passage. Well, hello, everybody. The party is not for me. This is a celebration of Carmen I. I met Carmen when she was, uh, 22 [00:46:30] in Sydney when she used to look like this. She was so beautiful in those days. I was working at LA Girl both and in Sydney when came out for an audition. They've never let her work over there with me in those days. You're looking back at 50 years ago and after that there are the memories that I've had. She's been such a good friend. We've been friends for all these years, you know. I'm 77 years old. [00:47:00] Car was two years younger than I am. But when we came to Wellington after him, my eldest son was born in Sydney and I decided to come home, come back to Wellington, and I came to Wellington around 60 something 64 65 and I opened the purple onion. I'm the party that was famous for for opening that city plan, which which is the Purple Onion? Cheers to you, darling, I hope [00:47:30] you're looking down because and we've never sort of. We've always been friends of all these fields. She used to come down when we first opened the and and she was a big help. But we used to We started off the club having an old review, which was a show with all the drag queens that was working there and people were writing things like on the walls outside of the funny little place. I'm sure everyone here has has heard around about my [00:48:00] age. They've all been to the and they've come from there. All the ones that have been made themselves big in in the strip club business as well as Dr in Wellington was well known is from the So I was placed in a way when when first came over here, she didn't have those clubs in those days. She didn't have anything, but she was working, doing my coffees over there, and we talk all the time. She was She was such a wonderful person. You know, comedy is is [00:48:30] I She was She was just a friend. You know, there was never any competition between me and Carmen in those days. Apart from the club, exotic. I was the first one that opened in Wellington in those days. And, uh, and all this time, too. When when she was she went back to city and all that she had so much you know so much. So many people have told stories about Carmen that Carmen was this and that. But they all know Carmen and respected [00:49:00] her because she was was the first one that sort of stand out and come out as a as the queen as a transvestite. It was very well known and well loved because I've never really come and or anything like that. She was such a lady in so many ways, and I'm basically proud of her to be to be to know her just as a friend. But anyway, that's we're here to talk about, But, uh, I'm so I'm glad that you asked me to come. Thank you very much just to say [00:49:30] something about her because I remember her when she was young. I left the country when went to America when in, uh 78 and I was there for 30 odd years. Most of the young queens that are around now, and all the trans started around at the those days. They were only little kids in those days before I left, and I didn't have much to do with it because I left the club with a and and my son, my oldest son, Mark, And they were writing it up when I left, I took my two younger kids and went [00:50:00] to the States. But I've always come back to Sydney, and I always have to call to have a cup of tea with her and talk of all these years, and I couldn't believe it. There's so many people that just respected her because she's she's been that kind of person, you know? She's funny and she she she's just a great person. She is, you know, everybody loved her. And so it's all the drag queens and all the the six strangers to that. They have a daughter because she stand up for what she believes in. And she's always been like [00:50:30] that right from the beginning, you know? And I loved it really do. And I'm so pleased that that you've got so many friends that remember you for what and I love you and and and I remember you of all these things. I used to laugh makes me laugh because I came over to her place. She always have a list of It's like a death list of everybody that we know, but she has a list down of everyone that's dying. All the Queens that drop off car will have a list. It's like [00:51:00] I think you've seen a movie of the dead list or something. Car will have everybody down on her list. You can the one that you can find it at her place in Sydney, in King's Cross. It was just a small place, I think. Not that half as big as this, but she has all the pictures and she had a mind that is so clear of everything else that goes on. She's never had any bad word to say. I know she's been done by by so many people with her life over here as [00:51:30] a She was going to be the mayor of Wellington. She was, She was She was famous, you know? And she sticked out for her people. She sticks out for the Maori people, which I'm Polynesian too. And we're the only ones that that are sort of sticking up with this, you know, as far as that's concerned. But, um II, I know that everybody in the world will remember her will remember, And I love you very much, so thank you for the opportunity. [00:52:00] That's truly fantastic. I wasn't going to say anything But, uh, I will now, because the story goes back to Victoria University and a group of young law students celebrating after the last exam. We went to the purple onion ring, Uh, and we became [00:52:30] over refreshed, one way or another, um, and a glass ashtray was held at one of the dancers. Anyway, the police were summoned, and we all ended up down in the police station down. And then to, um one of the law students was employed by Mike. I was employed [00:53:00] by John Tanner Hill, and we were locked up. The charge is being indecent. Uh, some other violent behaviour threatening this and disorderly behaviour? Certainly. Um, so when when we went into the cells and were, as the police say, processed, um and we were rubbing out our fingerprints, [00:53:30] but we were unaware that they were watching us doing that through the mirrors. We also didn't know that Mike and John Tan had been called down by the police to to watch all this. It all ended up in court and serious business for us because we were young law students faced with these pretty awful charges. And so many students came down to watch. They shifted the whole proceedings into the arbitration court, [00:54:00] which used to be just behind what was then the Supreme Court. And now, ironically, is once again the Supreme Court. Anyway, there we were, and, uh, we were triumphantly acquitted for one reason and one reason being that Percy Daniels, uh, the complainant of the being the owner of the premise did not realise that I was employed by his lawyer, John, Uh, and nor [00:54:30] did he realise that my other offender was employed by my anyway, it was all sorted out in a sort of reasonable way, but it was reported in the truth, and I was terrified that my father would get, but it seems not that he would ever read the truth. But But, um, but two law students acquitted name suppressed, uh, bad behaviour strip club [00:55:00] in the street. All that now, uh, where all that's leading me to is that as a young lawyer, then, uh, another student in the law firm, uh, I met her and, um and, uh, you know, she had this ability to sort of comprehend everything. And anyway, where am I leading to with the story? Who was making [00:55:30] I haven't seen it. Oh, yes. Um, subsequently, Pasi had a house up in Arrow Street, and I ironically, he asked me after I was triumphantly acquitted. Uh, I don't know. Quite what happened to the glass ashtray allegation? Um, he I I have set for him up in, and I haven't seen him, so we're going to have a great in a minute. Um, but, uh, [00:56:00] the upshot of the whole thing was that we all met Carmen as young students in those days, and she was an extraordinary person. I found her slightly intimidating as a as a straight fellow, and this kind of slightly overpowering, um, drag queen was a bit unusual. And those that fast forward, I don't know, maybe 10, 20 years. I was walking up William Street [00:56:30] in Sydney, um, staying at the and I was heading from my hotel, and I heard this unmistakable voice after 20 years. Hello? What you been doing? Want to have some fun? You got it. It was Carmen. And I said, what do you remember me? And we [00:57:00] had a bit of a chat, and she did. God bless her. She did remember all the years later so there's just another little vignette. Thank you. Listen to me. Good night. Fantastic. Thank you. Cheers, mate. OK, uh, if you wanna pop in on the same for your OK, Uh, obviously, [00:57:30] no, but I just like to talk about Carmen the lady, the person, Not not what she did. Or, um, you know, all the things Carmen was the most beautiful, loving, giving kind lady you could ever meet. I used to go and see her in Sydney, you know, and she was on a pension, and I know what it's like. I'm on the gold card now, you know, [00:58:00] But she always found $20. She would always be trying to put the $20 into my job and say, you know, go buy you a cup of coffee and a sandwich on the way home, girl, You know, um, people don't know of her generosity, her love that she gave, you know, she gave so much love. And, um, when anybody came into town, Carmen always made sure that she was there to help them and make sure that they were looked after. If [00:58:30] you rang Carmen, she'd say, I'll meet you so and so we'll go for lunch, and she wouldn't let you pay. Um, I think that people forget about that kind of thing And how, um she gave all of us girls a chance at jobs. Um, and yes, it's true. She got ripped off, you know, by some, um, But she knew that. I mean, she said to Shelley, obviously, you bought a car with my money. Where are we going? [00:59:00] And different ones. We go for a do I pay for that sex change, do you? So she wasn't stupid, but she still didn't care. She loved. She loved our community, our people. And she knew what our people were like. She grew up amongst it. And, uh, I saw her when I was, um, 14, 13, 14. I'd run away at 13 to be me and I was at I come from Auckland [00:59:30] originally, and I was a and and she walked in and this beautiful being walked in and she on them and she had a figure like a figure eight. She was absolutely stunning in the young days and lovely long black hair off her face and just hanging out. And, um, I was so intrigued by it I ran up to the counter. You know, I. I hadn't sprung her at first and I ran up to the counter and I knew the girl behind the counter. And when she left, I said, Oh, Mary, is that a Is that is that a Is that a like me? Is that And she said, Oh, how did you know? I said, I don't [01:00:00] know. It was just something about her And she went. I followed her to Upper Queen Street, where she was working for Ray and Hastie. It was just the early days of strip clubs, and she'd come back from Sydney to work in the Strip club for Ray and Hastie as a favourite. And I followed her all the way there, and I was standing at the door all the time looking every time the door opened. I looked to see if she was on stage, and she clicked after a while that I was there and she said to the guy on the door, Just let her in, let her come in and sit in the bathroom. She's not going to do any harm. [01:00:30] She just wants to watch. And so they used to let me go in and watch the shows, and I got in to watch the shows for nothing. And then she went back to Australia and I came to Wellington. But I just wanted to finish with saying that, um, don't forget that Carmen was a beautiful, loving, giving person, and that's above all things and always a lady you can never you know. I'll tell you a little funny story. You never heard Carmen swear or [01:01:00] or, uh, raise her voice or say dirty things. You know, dirty jokes. But she had a wonderful dry. We we were took her out for lunch at Fox City. Um um, films up in up in Sydney when I was living in Australia, and we're sitting there and we had this young, uh, nephew of my friend Natalie's with us only very young and we were talking about she was talking about being in prison. And what and did the boys put their through the people. [01:01:30] I mean, when I was in jail and I said, Oh, yes, and I used to whack up with my with my F knife and she said, Oh, I used to say, Oh, I couldn't how disgusting. And we're all taking a sip of coffee. Wait. And there was this long, and she went Gul. Bye. Uh, ladies and gentlemen [01:02:00] Hey, right now I've got this gentleman I met. I met, uh, Ed cars. 70th birthday at him and his partner And now all the way over here from Sydney for for this, um, fabulous little gathering we've got tonight. I could you pop down here and say your please, mate, And, um, I feel truly privileged, mate, I've gotta say this. I've just been given a, um, having done Carlin's 70th birthday, I was taken a CD of her 75th birthday. And, darling, I treasure. [01:02:30] Hello, everybody. Um, we weren't, um we haven't got a speech prepared or anything like that. Um, but, uh, because we weren't 100% sure whether we would be coming. But my name is Jurgen Hoffman, And this is Robin, my partner of 30 odd 30 plus years. And, uh, and, uh, we're from Sydney. And, um, we sort of came into Carmen's life. Um, at the later stage, it's been 11 years. We knew Carmen for the last 11 years, if you like. And, uh, we had a great time [01:03:00] with Carmen and what I just said, er in relation to Carmen, never have never saying a bad word never having to say anything negative about anyone. That was just Carmen, as you all know. And, uh, Rob will share a story with you a little bit later, Uh, on that, uh, particular point, but car never swore. You're right. She never had a bad thing to say, and she never cried once once. Put your hands up. If you've ever if you ever saw Carmen cry, OK, 12 there's about three hands up here. Alright? Well, in the 11 years [01:03:30] that we knew Carmen, we only ever saw her cry once. And that was when her sister walked in the room from Tomassi. Tessie walked in the room when she was in there. When she was in hospital, Rob brought her in, and Robin actually saw tears come down Carmen's space, huh? That was the first time and only time. So she was She was a very proud woman. And, um and, uh, we loved the dearly And a lady a lady at all times, OK? She never She never complained. She did not complain OK, but she she loved attention. OK, [01:04:00] if you fussed over Carmen, she really well and truly love that, OK, Right to the last day, in fact. And, um so Robin, Robin was, um, Carmen's main carer for the last, um, 12 months. Um, there were four guardians that were appointed. Robin was one. I was Carmen's, um, financial manager, Guardian as well. So we did that. It was a great, um, a great journey that we went on. Uh, and for me, it all sort of happened. It's all come to an end far too quickly, [01:04:30] far too quickly, because we were in Perth there for a few days. We came back, and, uh, we went up to see Carmen in the nursing home, and she was in a beautiful nursing home, the best nursing home I've ever been into. I wanna put myself into that nursing home, OK? In about 25 years time, it was actually that good. Alright, so, um, we've got some Great, um, some great photos of er of Carmen in that, uh, in that place. But there she was carmen, uh, looking a little bit unwell. And, um and, uh and I said to car. And, [01:05:00] um, what do we need to do? Carmen and Carmen says to me, me alive. Those were her last words to me Keep me alive. And it was only this morning when it dawned on me what she I think what she was actually saying to me keep her memory alive, OK? And that's I guess, what we're here for tonight. And that's what we're really trying to do. So, friend of ours, Kelly, back in Sydney and, um, Robin and my and myself and shanette her niece [01:05:30] up in Brisbane. We actually you may have heard about it. We're putting together this Carmen Ruy Memorial Trust with that one view in mind to further her legacy and all those wonderful things that she stood for. OK, so that's what we are hoping to do. In that way, Carmen's memory will live on and on and on. Thanks very much. Ladies and gentlemen, everyone, um, I'm a bit shy on a microphone, [01:06:00] but, um, be cars car. Sorry, but actually be car. This is the first time I've actually spoken about, um, the last I'd say two months of time of of my time at Carmen. So I'm gonna keep it very brief. Um, all I can say is that a few lovely people here will know that Carmen [01:06:30] had a a very peaceful passing. It was absolutely beautiful. I was in the room with her from her last hour. And if I can say you will be pleased to know that her passing was absolutely beautiful, very peaceful. And thank you very much for being here. Thank you. Thank you very much. [01:07:00] No, you're doing You're gonna make something on me, OK? It's, um anybody else there that would like to say a few words at all. Everybody's OK, I think. Ok, it's been fantastic. Alright, then. I think we're gonna be, um, I. I think a young fool here, Phil would like to say a few words to you. Baby, I am Bill. I'm come back with car into your late sixties. I have known car very well, but not [01:07:30] to the infant knowledge of some of you have. But my I've known her in a professional capacity from broadcasting my first introduction to her. I was in the closet quite horribly, but, uh, you just had to be in my generation. I was playing top sport. It was difficult to be up with a boy on Friday night and play rugby in front of a crowd of 5000 on Saturday. I can tell you the showers were quite interesting, but, um and some people would ask you Well, why did you get to look like in the shower? And I said you ever played 8, 80 [01:08:00] minutes of rugby and then, um, got to a shower and you don't feel like doing anything. So anyway, um, when in the old days the television production office, the studios, we in Taylor Street and the production office is on Victoria Street, where the main library now was it was right next door to the international Carmen International balcony. And as it happened in my day, I used to go to sports practise and come back. And because we're short of equipment, some of us had to work the night shift. So I used to work late at night, sometimes [01:08:30] just in a sea of short, and it's quite hot. And when we went to go and have A or Mimi, the urinal was right next to the it looked straight down into the back of the balcony, and quite often they'll be outside sitting out there and there'd be all that are going on and someone who saw me having a pee one night because the window was open. Oh, who's that? And Palmer was down there looking. Hello? So we got invited me and that person I was working. We got invited back for coffee, [01:09:00] and it became a regular occurrence to be upstairs behind the stage with all the things happening the first time. It was a really strange experience. I'd never seen people fix his top and bottom before. But I saw them and, um, was so charming and got to know here reasonably because then we went down to the coffee lounge and and had, uh, bourbon and coke and a Coke. Um, and Mr never came and made this. I can appreciate that. Um, but anyway, [01:09:30] and getting that confidence up with Cameron, we went to do a telethon in 1976 which Mel would remember very well because Mel turned up in a bridal dress with some guy they had got on the what was the name of Silver Star? The endeavour gone up halfway up the line with the buckets came back at about five o'clock Sunday afternoon. Turned up was at the show building, which is now the advance, Uh, thing up there and, um, we put them on stage. [01:10:00] But that that was a bit sort of was quite funny. But it wasn't as funny as earlier on because I've managed to talk Carmen into coming on television. And up until then, she'd never really appeared on television or in the media as Carmen in a formal sense. And I said to her, we'd like to I told we must put it in context that TV two in Wellington. Um, the television labour government has set up a bit of channels. So we had TV one, which is running from Wellington and Dunedin [01:10:30] and TV two running from Auckland. Um, Christchurch. Those of us who had a little show in Wellington producing the news and they sell the advertising. Um, we we were left with trying to organise this thing called Tele Tele, which none of us had ever seen in our life before. And we also had, um Auckland and we've been Wellington said we can do better than Auckland. So how can we do it. So I said, Well, look, um, we tried to think between midnight and dawn, we did not know what [01:11:00] was gonna happen. And all I can say is, telecom just took off that night, and between midnight and dawn, what are we gonna do? And I said, Well, why don't we have some strippers on? So I said, Go do that. And I said, Well, what do we get chairman on? She seems to be a bit well known around town. Can't do that. And I said it is an option on with Wellington. Let's get on with it. So being positive in Wellington in the early days, I picked up the phone and I rang, came and I rang this copy lounge. No answer. So and I took it down the car and said, Hello. I hadn't seen you for a long while, Young man. [01:11:30] I said, I want to do me a favour. Would you like to appear on on? And I can't remember what cause it was that year, but I think it was and something. And she's not anything for charity. Anything for charity, darling, Can you even know what the cause was? That you you raised money for? Yeah. Anyway, so I thought, Now I've got to put it on. I was producing a studio presentation of the whole thing, not the overall title. And so I had this all scheduled. I had people like Baz and Hamilton on those who [01:12:00] remember those people those days, uh, Roger Gas. And he was wondering around the studio, and And we have people coming in one board going out the other and somewhere or telephones over here. So what you did as a person on a panel you got on the panel, read up the PiS. Then when you've done your stint, you'd go and pick up the bucket, go round the audience, then you'd go and mend the phones. Well, try and explain that the camera is a bit difficult. So she said, I'll come along. And I said, What time do you finish? Thinking [01:12:30] more like two o'clock in the morning? Oh, I'll come along at one o'clock if you like. And I said, What about some of the girls I said, we can't really put them on naked. Oh, she said, No, no, no. The kids could have things here and they test and we can do a few things, she said. But I, I said, I can't get them naked because it's gonna be embarrassing. Leave it to me. So anyway, we arranged for the girls to come down about three o'clock because bear in mind in those days it's still 10 o'clock closing. So this strip club more this place is about to be. Yeah. So [01:13:00] anyway, Karen sat watching this thing at home at eight o'clock at night, start at eight o'clock and got carried quite away by Roger Gas and a lot of people. So she arrived in her taxi or whatever about 10 30 at night. So I've got this big thing. What some people described as theatre in action was sort of put on the makeup, put on the match him in the handbag, hold up, and there was an action. That's what I had walking in door because all the heads turned and and when you're watching television and you got camera [01:13:30] that way and everybody's looking off screen and what what the hell has happened? So we had to put this grand arrival of Cameron on at about 10 30 at night, and here I say, What the fuck am I gonna do now? You know, because just bear in mind, she been not in the public eye like she was going into This is this Uncle Tom, Dick and Harry all sitting in the audience and not many kids. But there's another story coming up here. And anyway, so we decided the best thing to do is put [01:14:00] on the panel. So we put over a list of and P us out. In a way, she went and people warmed up to her. They started ringing in. Would you get up to? We had a pile of bloody pitchers who couldn't get her off the panel. Anyway, Everyone was happy, and it was sort of he was a whole thing fairly. That's world was saying come and lots of guests we got, we got And then what? What we gonna do now? And, um finally we got off about midnight. He going shut her up, have a cup of coffee the other day, and the girls [01:14:30] turned up Well, the girls weren't meant to be there till three o'clock in the morning. But there was nothing happening in Wellington. Everybody was glued to this bloody telephone And he was She got the idea to go and get a fucking money on the train and they look So anyway, we got these girls with long guns, so we set them up the back of the audience and, uh, they did their number the, um, Auckland people watching our show, and they decided that this was quite fun. So we went nationwide. So came and [01:15:00] went nationwide. We got this and then what happened was the girls went on at three o'clock and I looked around and I started to see kids coming into the bloody show. And I said, What the hell are kids arriving here at three o'clock in the bloody morning? It's just that buzz Mum and said, We have Buzz Bumble here at six o'clock. So? So nobody no, I've got car sitting on stage here. He's naked deals wondering around, kept them bloody money and kids riding with their mum and dad and mum and ask him what they and cars just in there. Oh, well, they better [01:15:30] live in some time. I it was it was as funny as night on the top of off later that day. This one turns up and in the bottle. Gallons, for God's sake. What have you done now? What's your name today? I said, I can't say anything about heis. So they got away with interviewing and boom. I nearly lost my job over all this because in his famous paper called Truth, um, published on a Tuesday I had Monday off. Thank God I came in to find out my boss [01:16:00] was, um, a bit agitated that he should come and see me. And I thought, God, something's gone wrong here because we've done well. We've made millions of bloody dollars first thing and people are still talking about. And it was the first one ever, and he threw me down the truth. And he was a photo of me and his grieving there, not to mention words about Carmen. How the hell did you let that go on TV this? Um he was a man, not a woman. I said I didn't know that. How the hell did you know that? [01:16:30] And I said, put the party in there. And how the hell would I know? And I was busy bloody on his show. I said, I just got bit of earlier on came and come back at that stage, I find a deal with all this. Plus a donkey that got stuck on the bloody stage in the Woody donkey along those little head. The donkey had bags on it coming down, um, from the zoo where he lived up yet got him into the studio. And when you produce, tell you have the panel that is your safe shot. When I in doubt, cut back to [01:17:00] the bloody panel and get them to open your mouth and talk. Well, we have sitting in there and I don't know if you've seen the photo of this car is sitting looking over the back of his donkey, they won't bloody move. We can't go anywhere because the place is packed and we've got the journalist behind the donkey doing this, the bloody back legs up and Carvin looking at the back. It was hilarious. Anyway, the comment, that was that. Why I'm telling you this. That was the first time Carmen was [01:17:30] able to go out to every Tom, dick and Harry and Lisa and Mary and all that with money. And people would look at her not as a curiosity number, but as a person who generally cared about things because I'd heard her talk and things like that. Now this is 1976. When she left New Zealand, I was able to go and see her and I said, Look, we'd like to cover you leaving New Zealand for a programme called Close up and those of you who have ever go to the archives. I don't know if it's on the A thing, but it was a very moving programme. Maes a cabaret. All [01:18:00] the wonderful people there, all her support. People were there. I think I think he might have been. I'm just not too sure, But, um, we were interviewed here. But the most poignant interview at all was a chap called Paul Ransley. And I was able to perform here in the back of a coffee lounge or there about to bring me down to sleep. I sleep and we filmed her and we did an interview. She was as humble as Emma, fascinated by the lights around, trying to tell us at this time in the morning, she doesn't really put this much makeup [01:18:30] on if she had to and, um, we got this interview and you just seen AC. I think we were close to it. I said to her, You're saying goodbye to New Zealand. We need to interview to some some. So we brought the camera back and she looked in the mirror and she took off her. She took up the eyelashes and she put everything down. And that's what we end the programme on. No word you said or she said goodbye to New Zealand so that that programme it's a close up programme. Uh, whatever year it was, [01:19:00] um then recently, now we talk about, um she came back to New Zealand about a year ago. I think it was. And those of you who may have seen on the Internet there photographs are taken in bib street outside the which is roughly where evergreen is, uh, up in the rainbow room. It's quite, uh, pretty cheap. But the most important thing is we took across the National Archive Alexander Temple Library. Now she has donated her New Zealand memorabilia [01:19:30] and she did that some years ago because she didn't know she couldn't get it all on the plane. And she wasn't going to pay money to get it over here. Um, she didn't say if you had any, so she she gave it. My advice was to give it to her to the archive, but she did. So I said to her, Let's go up to the archive who've been across at Parliament and as said she was quite fascinated by the de was a picture of her on the wall in Parliament at the moment. And, um, she sat down with the curator and she could [01:20:00] not. She was absolutely so humble and so stunned that someone could get every photograph and label it with the names of the people in. So she did help out the win work, plus all this other person and I see her look, someone, they could, um, actually do this for her. So all I'm saying is those of you are talking about the room. I think it is easy to move something. What they do, they take a photograph of the room. Then they carefully number everything. They put a pack it away carefully, [01:20:30] and then they bring the whole lot over, and they could do that. Now, the thing I'm working on at the moment, um is there was a question as to how to complete that archive. You've got the trust going up, which is the future. But we do have a Facebook page and we want to preserve that. And, uh, I'm just trying to work out. Now. I need to talk a few experts here mind as to how we can get that to national archive in its form, that can be added as, uh, information against what's already there. [01:21:00] So on that note, um, I have very fond members of Carmen. I've had a lot of laughs, and she may come out of the closet by default, and it's been quite an interesting ride. Um, and I think, as everybody has said, she has led the way. My view on a, um, Memorial. I'd love to have a statue or something outside the architectural college because I remember her walking up there and waving at the bus. The timing was impeccable. [01:21:30] She I don't know. Anyway, I'll end on that, and anybody can simulate on about the other questions I'm raising about the archives and that I really appreciate it. Thank you. I think we're just about getting close to about, uh the, um, end of this, um, official engagement for Carmen's memorial. I'd just like to say a couple more words. And that is, um, Carmen, I will never forget the many times I enjoyed in the venue. I'll [01:22:00] never forget the amount of time you used to send, um, all the way down to, um, to street to which it is now. The warehouse, which used to actually be the old milk treatment station at two o'clock in the morning car was Lola down there, Lola, go and get the milk. But she can't stop those old ladies cane baskets on wheels down there at two o'clock in the morning. And Lola would be away for, like, three quarters of an hour, and then it would be an hour, and then she'd come back. She'd go. Lola, where have you been? I had to blow the dust off. I was [01:22:30] doing deliveries just as we were going around with come regular tree. I'll never forget the time, Carmen, when I stood at your balcony when she was down where the, uh, library is now and the fabulous gypsy absolutely gorgeous. The most towering transgender you've ever seen here Higher than Carmen's and Carmen would, uh, have this beautiful long catwalk with all these gorgeous, fantastic ladies with their tassels out there doing their dance routines. [01:23:00] And there'd be a couple of rugby yos in the front row over there, and we would go to Gypsy, get rid of those two. I remember standing aside, gypsy won on each hand, and the stairway to the balcony was like this. And Gypsy just go fuck off. Right? She created a lot of fun, a lot of experiences and a lot of, um, memories for all of us. Some of [01:23:30] us have got to be spoken about them. Some of them are getting us close to our hearts. But, Carmen, for all of us here in this room, you will never be forgotten. Ever be forgotten? You're in our archives of our minds and our history. Thank you for being a part of our lives. And, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for being here. I we're gonna play a little bit of sort of like, old time music downstairs right now from our from our era. So, [01:24:00] um, if you want to have a little bit of a or or socialise upstairs, please feel free to do so. But, um, if you want to stay downstairs and enjoy a bit of music in that era, please feel free to do that as well. Thank you guys of cultural era of music downstairs. But I'd like you all to give a big hand. Oh, my gorgeous husband. You did a fantastic job tonight. You. Thank you so much. So much for taking time out. We have a very busy schedule as this Grant. Thank you for taking your time out. To come here and be with us tonight. We appreciate it, but all our [01:24:30] distinguished guests thank you very, very much. We're now going over to some nice, casual Cruz music of the era down here. Give me a chance to mingle. Mix This one is for to I [01:25:00] the Thank you so much.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089201
TITLE: Snapshot 2000 - coming out stories
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: Snapshot 2000; coming out; youth
DATE: 1 January 2000
YEAR: 2000
LOCATION: Aotearoa New Zealand, Aotearoa New Zealand, Oceania
CONTEXT: In this podcast compilation participants talk about their coming out experiences.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I've always known I've been gay. Um, I've always been in some sort of denial about it, thinking that it was wrong, Um, all the way, basically, through college, especially, um, I was always picked on, and people continually call me and so forth, and it's something you not a nice experience, but you really got no choice about it. And I suppose I just kept denying it whenever anyone told me that, and I think that was kind of my way of denying it myself. Um, basically, [00:00:30] I've known ever since I was 12 or 13. Um, during school, I had girlfriends. I never slept with him. I only had girlfriends because it was a fashionable thing to do. And then I left college, and at the age of 19, I went off to Polytech in Auckland. And, um, I had a chat to a counsellor there because things are starting to get me down because I was feeling really lonely. I had no one no one knew about me in one night. Um, [00:01:00] the council, the council just said to me, perhaps you should start relying on people and letting them know what what happens. So I rang my best friend and we had a long talk. I ended up in tears on the phone and I told him I've got something big to tell you and I came out to him and he was a bit shocked, but he was totally cool about it. He said, Look, I don't agree with it, but because you're my friend, I'll stick by you and give you as much support as what you need And that was really good. [00:01:30] I had him as a sounding board now, and I basically talk to him about any issues I had. Um I I still had this, um, need to meet someone, obviously companionship thing. And so I started originally by placing an ad in one of the Auckland Game magazines, and I got a few replies. Life was quite difficult because I couldn't give them my home address. Um, in case my parents found out who I was still same with at the time. So I started meeting people [00:02:00] and started making up all sorts of weird and wonderful excuses to why I was going out this time of the night and why I had to borrow the car and so forth and then one day I just thought I had enough of this. I need to let my parents know what's going on with me, and I think I was about 21 22 when I came out to them. I did it through a letter. The main reason for that was because I had so much I wanted to say, and I knew that if I told my parents face to face, I'd end up in tears [00:02:30] and I would not be able to get across what I wanted to tell them. So I went to work one day, and with the help of my friend, I had told a year or so before I drafted a letter up and put down all my ideas and everything. Um, all my life, I was brought up as gay people are very bad people. You don't want to be around them. Um, don't associate with them, and that really made it hard for me. In fact, I was quite positive I was going to be thrown [00:03:00] out of home. I remember one night, especially during the news. They did a piece on the Sydney Mardi Gras and my father said a comment and passing. I think they should all be shot. They don't deserve to live. And that's sort of not the thing you want to hear, especially from someone who you really need to tell about you. So quite naturally, I was very nervous. Um, I showed the letter to my mother and I burst the tears and she read it and she cried [00:03:30] and she said, I don't want you to tell your father And I said Yes, I wanted her to. And so I left the house and she showed him the letter, and I came back half an hour later and my father was in tears and we sat down and we had a big talk about it, and he's fine about it now. Um, I think a lot of people tend to have their views. And it's not until they actually meet um, a homosexual person, that [00:04:00] they actually realise that gay people aren't actually bad people. They're just you and I. You pass them on the street, and it's not until you actually know someone who you can relate to and who you can talk to. That it actually had, because all you ever seem to see on television are the other raving queens. Use the expression and the very camp and flamboyant people and that, especially if my parents did not give a good view of the gay community. Um, I then promptly went out and started telling my friends [00:04:30] I was sure I would lose some friends. I had five or six very close friends. I always made the issue out to be big myself because it was such a traumatic thing for me to do. But one by one. As I told them, they all said it was fine. I felt absolutely stupid, burst into tears and telling someone and giving them a hug, and they sort of looked at me and said, Well, what's the big deal? And I think now when I tell people I'm a lot more casual about it, [00:05:00] and I sort of come to the realisation that if they like you, they will like you regardless of your sexuality. And if they're your friend, they will be there regardless. And I think no matter who you come out to, you just got to take that risk and if they're there for you, they will still be there for you. And if for some reason they don't, I don't know if they're really that much of your friend in the first place. Well, my girlfriend was the first person I told because I probably probably affect her the most after two years, [00:05:30] and I told her and she didn't believe me. She thought it was some sort of a nasty joke. She thought that, you know? Oh, he's always a practical joke sort of thing. So this is just another nasty play. And she reacted really badly when she finally it took a lot of convincing, but I finally convinced her she started believing it. She turned really nasty, and she rang up my cousins because she knew how homophobic they were and she like, she told them, and they rang up my auntie and they were like, Guess what? [00:06:00] You know. He's a fag sort of stuff, and then my family came to me and some of them It was a mixed reaction. Like my cousins, they came to do some serious damage sort of stuff, and I luckily wasn't home, and they got my flat mate and my flatmate and told them to depart rather swiftly But then a few weeks later, they came around again and I was there and we ended up having a talk about the whole sort of thing, and it [00:06:30] was just more of a sort of disbelief thing for them. They sort of felt that I've lied to them through the years. But the thing was, I was lying to myself more than I was to them. My mother, on the other hand, me being an only other child was like, really upset because she has no chance of grandchildren, which is like, really strung up on and stuff like that. And my father took it really well, my sister still don't know. It's gonna be really hard to explain it to him. Um, [00:07:00] one of them didn't believe it. And the ones that did just shifted away for for me that, um I wanted them to stick through, and I couldn't have probably got through without them because I had a lot of really bad times coming out. Um, I have great relief. It was like I'd spent all these years lying to everyone and to myself, and then I finally [00:07:30] going up the guts to do it and I came out in at the time, I didn't care what what reactions came out, what people said, how people would would treat me or anything like that. All I wanted to do is like free myself from this burden. I felt like I was carrying, so when I did, it was just like a big weight was taken off my shoulder and it could only be me instead of living this life. Coming out to my family was another matter. I. I think [00:08:00] I'd been out to myself satisfactorily than from my early twenties, and I had, like my friend Michael, who I bumped into occasionally true friends who was always a happy, confident, homosexual man. And I think he was a good pillar to have a good reference point to know that no matter how much life seems to change or where other people went in other directions, as in moving away from the bisexuality thing or becoming married and having [00:08:30] kids, Michael was always there as a rock solid person who was happy to be gay was never gonna be anything else, but that he was a political activist and such, uh, my friends could deal with the fact that I said that I had attraction to men even though I didn't really let them out. I know virtually no sex life, which is probably the only reason why I'm HIV Negative now. No sex life, really? In my late twenties, early thirties, [00:09:00] but at home I remember one time about seven more years ago, seven years ago, maybe now, Well, I was standing to think that I was gonna have to start, including how I felt about other people sexually in my life. It was important for that to become an honest and active part of my life. And I was working for the kitchen at home here one day, and I just send my father at the kitchen table with my brother and my mother and he said, and we had one [00:09:30] of them at work and he was OK, and I just turned around and I said one. What? And he said a queer. And before I could stop myself, I said, Well, Dad, you've got one for a son. Oh, that's OK and walked out the front yard. And as I got out the front yard, I just my heart to a bit louder and louder and louder, and I thought it was gonna collapse. But that was it. Like my father's been totally supportive [00:10:00] ever since. My mother had always been supportive. But it meant then that I could start dealing with the issue with all the rest of my family and have had nothing but support nothing but good results from interactions with people. So since that time, when I contacted Michael again and Michael was doing a radio show called Queer Radio I was up to. Then go and visit Michael, go to the radio show and start to talk [00:10:30] to other men and realise that that being gay or being homosexual is a huge fear of things. And you don't have to be a particular person behave in a certain way. And even though I thought I was relatively informed, I don't think you can be informed enough about the nature of the differences between people. So what I've got out of working now for the last six years on queer radio and by talking with literally hundreds of different men [00:11:00] and women is an appreciation that it's more OK for me to be me and I try to encourage other people, no matter how early they are in the coming out process, to just accept themselves and to not expect too much of themselves. Except, um, that they are OK, My father is dead. Uh, my mother I have not told one she is european. [00:11:30] Um, older person would not understand. It would totally go off about it and completely cut contact. I don't. Not that it worries me, but it sort of would hurt her feelings. Although at this stage there is a person that I am seeing. Then if I ever moved in with him, I would come out to my mother irrespective [00:12:00] of what she felt. Irrespective of what she would say about it, I think she would blur, refuses, go completely hysterical because, um, her background is very religious. Um, very naive. No education whatsoever. She never went to school. And [00:12:30] she just can't understand. Uh, anything outside her stereotypical field. Things have got a natural order to her, and this is wrong. Makes me feel that I want to live my life the way I want to live my life. I can't live my life to conform to other people's ideas. Because if it comes down to happiness. I've got to be happy [00:13:00] first. I can't please everyone else, and no one can please everyone else because no one has ever managed to make people happy. As soon as you you conform to one set of standards, they'll change the standards and they'll want you to do something else. I went home to Holland and I had Christmas with my parents, and then we had a New Year's party. Um, I [00:13:30] remember I was dancing with my sister at that party, and I was sort of saying things like, um well, you know, this is not really the me that I am or something like that. Something very cryptic and my sister answered. But Rain? I know already. You don't have to tell me, but I never I never I never used the word homosexual, homosexual or gay or anything. I just I was very, very cryptic at that time, and then when I flew back to to New York, I decided I was coming. [00:14:00] I had to come out, so I called my parents, um, from New York, and I spoke with my mother on the phone, and that's when I told her and she she said, Well, you know, I, I guess so much. And Marie Elaine, my sister, um, she had she had talked. She had told what? What? What? I had talked to her about, um, while dancing at New Year's, and, um but she was actually very accepting, and she was just very, very worried that, um, [00:14:30] I was coming back. She said, Well, you're now in New York and you're in that environment where it's all very OK and very very, um, won't give you any problems. But when you come back to Amsterdam or when you come back to Holland, you'll find a very different environment. And she was very, very worried, worried, And it would actually, you know, harm my career perspective. And as as you would expect from from parents like I have and, um um, and she was very protective, really. She she was She felt very worried for me. Um, [00:15:00] but also very, um, very disappointed, I guess, in a way, because I'm the heir of the family and I need to keep the family name and all that stuff. And, um, I wasn't going to do that. Um, and what makes it worse is later. My my brother is homosexual as well. So, um, I've got one sister and one brother and, uh and he's He's seven years younger than I am. Um, so he's 27 and he only came out last year during the gay games in Amsterdam. [00:15:30] Uh, although everybody knew he was gay, but he he had he had even a worse struggle than I had because I I grabbed the only opportunity to come out away from him because, in his view, there was, You know, even one gay person in the family is too much, let alone two gay persons. Um, he he hated me for being gay because first, it reminded him of being gay. And second, because I took away the only opportunity he saw to come out in our family. [00:16:00] But now, um, he's changing rapidly, and, uh, we were the best of friends, and, um, we feel very close to each other again. We always felt close, I guess. I mean, we we never we never felt, um there was never, never, like a break in our in our in our brotherly relationship, but it was It's definitely more open now. and more close in the sense that we can really talk about things that were taboo before. And he has become so much more at ease and more mature [00:16:30] and and and he's he's giving the same experience as I am that that that there is really nobody that that that will drop you for being gay or or like you less. And if if if they would, then they probably weren't your friends in the first place, I'm out to all my friends to my family. No, my parents are in their mid seventies. I believe that they would not cope at all. Well, um, with the fact that I was gay and if I came out to them then, um, it would affect [00:17:00] them, um, emotionally. And I don't want to do that to them. I people say, You know, you should tell your parents and all that sort of thing And I think I think every parent's reaction is that they look at themselves and think, Well, you know what the What the hell did I do? Where the hell did I go wrong and they didn't go wrong. They didn't do anything wrong at all. It's just the physical makeup that makes up me, and there's nothing I can do about it. There's nothing they can do about it. But they would feel recrimination, and I don't want them to do that. And at the same time, too, I think I'm a little [00:17:30] bit frightened that they just may turn away. Um, and I don't want that either. I'm an only child. They're the only family I have. I need their support, and I need their love, um, moving on. From there, we come to the gay scene, which I find extremely frustrating. Um, because I'm into my late forties. Um, I'm an old man. I don't feel it. I don't act it. I don't really look at either. But, um, we brand ourselves, I think, um, for a [00:18:00] section of society that complains so loudly and wrongly about being discriminated against, I think we're more discriminatory ourselves than any other group could ever be towards us. Um, I have yet to meet a man. I have not really had a true homosexual or a gay relationship. Um, I met a guy about six weeks ago, eight weeks ago. Now it would be, um, and a situation where, um, [00:18:30] he had a partner who was living overseas at the time who he was going to join at the end of the year. Um, we met. We were attracted to each other. Um, we got on so well together. We ended up having a sexual relationship, which I thought I could control, but I couldn't. Um I felt rather hard for the guy. He was only 32. Very successful, extremely intelligent, charming, witty. Everything I ever wanted in a man. Um, he never really talked about [00:19:00] what he felt for me, but he kept coming back and coming back. So I know he felt something and he knew how I felt. And that's the closest I think I've ever come to being in love with a man. The things that I felt the highs and the lows, um, I have never felt before. Um, and I find it sad that I come to this point in my life where I've never really experienced true life. Um, I find it frustrating. Um and I've It's hard. All I want [00:19:30] is someone to love and someone to love me. But I guess it will happen. I mean, the guy gave me back self esteem that I had lost. Um, he made me feel worthwhile and made me realise that there are guys out there who hour the type of person I want who will find me attractive. So I guess one day my day will come. As for I coming out. Well, what could I say? It's quite difficult for me to to speak real about [00:20:00] it. Um, and as much as I haven't made any coming out towards my parents, for example, uh, Except, uh, my sister, who is, uh, who knows everything about me and, well, everything a part of everything about me. Um, my parents don't know anything about my homosexuality. Uh, that's my choice. Um, I know that they would have many difficulties to accept it. [00:20:30] Um, I've tried to see how they would react, you know, just talking about it from time to time. The what? Their point of view was about such a topic. But, um, they have always considered homosexuality as a disease. So with time, I hope they that we change our mind. Er, at that time, it's still er, life is so I haven't spoken [00:21:00] to them. Still, I I think I'd be compelled to do to do it. Um, my boy, my boyfriend has, uh, has, uh, told everything to his parents. Uh, I've met them. They are quite wonderful people. And, uh, I decided to to move in, uh, South France French Riviera in quite in a few months with my boyfriend. So I think I'll be compelled to speak about my parents by that, Um, [00:21:30] even if I am quite sure that my mother wouldn't even believe it, and, uh, even if I didn't say anything, she would believe it's just a friend. Even if I'm always telling her that, um, I'm always with him, in fact, so but when people don't want to understand, I think they they don't. That's OK for me. And it's sometimes a little hard not to be able to speak about it. But, um, as much as my very close friends [00:22:00] are all knows or know all all about me and uh, that's OK, because I've been able to to do my coming out with my friends, and I've been quite I really happy to see that they have accepted it quite well. So I think I'm quite happy. I'm quite lucky. I wouldn't give any advice [00:22:30] to anybody about coming out. I think there are no general purposes general way to act in such a such a field. There are people who can tell it to their parents and some won't and well depends on each situation. In each case, I think it is always interesting when you can speak about it to the people you love. But it is [00:23:00] not possible. Yeah, You've got all friends, so friends, you know, wonderful things. That's my point. When I came out to my parents, it it was like a huge weight off my shoulder. I remember the night I went to bed after I told my parents I had the best sleep I'd ever had in years. And it was just it was just such a relief. It was such a huge relief. It was like I didn't need to lie anymore. I didn't have to lead such [00:23:30] a double life, which I've been doing for so many years. Um, everyone that is gay has a pretty good idea that they are. But a lot of people are very, um, apprehensive about it. Um, some people live in areas where it's not well accepted. Um, if you're going to come out, make sure you come out with friends around you that you can really, really trust. Um, take it slowly, but don't take it too slow. [00:24:00] Um, because when she come out, you wish she'd done it years ago. I think eventually you need to be honest to yourself and ask yourself, What are you VR? And if you prepare for the worst, like I came out to my family as well a couple of years later, because I've been I've been I got a job, and now I get to travel a lot, and I work in the United States and and it helped a lot more to be [00:24:30] really happy being who you are. So I decided to came out to my family and and everybody, and it actually turned out to be OK. I mean, they had some. We have some, um, family problems when I told them, but I was really prepared to, um, to say, Hey, if they're not going to accept me, that's OK. I still can't handle myself. I still can, and they'll support myself. I've been supporting myself all [00:25:00] the time anyway. So I have no threats from them if they're not going to accept it and which some of my family are not very happy about it. But I didn't I didn't really care because, you know, that's my life. And I live for myself and I. I don't need anything from them. Even if they're emotionally not gonna support me, I I'm actually say I'm prepared for them. So I think you just have to be confident [00:25:30] about yourself. If you want to come out. If you're not really, I think it's probably better not to, um my friends, especially Western friends, seems to be less problem than A than in a Asian countries where I come from Asia. So, um, they just making a little bit of comparison. So I'm totally out now to companies and my work and school whatever, [00:26:00] and I actually came out to my class, They were kind of joking and and and I said, Yes, I am. And some of them are just huh? And some of them are actually OK, and actually, they are quite gay. Gay people there. I know there's a gay guy and a lesbian there. It was sort of a joke. It just like joke joking about gay and and I just Yes, I am gay. I'm the first one that came out in the class And then I saw the other ones. [00:26:30] They didn't They didn't mention they. I know they are, but I just read them in gay bars and I read, 00, you are too. And it Yeah, they they they think I know it as well, but they didn't want to tell anyone. I ended up telling my brother first, and I said to him, You know, I've kissed the guy and I don't know. I think I am gay. And now my brother, who's the oldest one? He's about 30. He's a real masculine man. Um, he's black bat and karate. [00:27:00] He's a boxer, so you can sort of just imagine what sort of person he is. He married and he was like, Oh, you have to tell Mum if you don't tell Mum, I Well, and that was the big subject. And I turned around and said, Mum, if he doesn't tell you, I'm gonna tell you I don't give a care. I don't care anymore. So after telling my mum she was just, like, screaming ahead of I had to go to a priest and confess. Now, that was the worst thing I could do. I ended up going to a priest telling him that I was gay. [00:27:30] He said to me that I was gonna go to hell. Um, being gay was not part of our Greek Orthodox religion. And there must be something wrong with you for being attracted to the same sex. I then replied to him and said, God made me to be happy on this earth. And if I'm happy, um, I think he also will be happy. I don't really care. Not that I follow religion much anymore. But I used to be a Greek Sundays church boy that I used to be going to church every Sunday. [00:28:00] And I had mum sitting on the bed, one just screaming, saying, I can't believe that you're gay. Where did I go wrong as a mother. Is it my fault? What are the relatives gonna think? What are the neighbours gonna think? How did I bring up my son in this world? Holding hands with another male and kissing him? I don't think it works. I want him to get married. I want him to have Children. And that was a big, strong part in the Orthodox to get married, have Children have a good job [00:28:30] study, do all that Now I've studied, I've done uni, I've done art, I've done painting and now I've got a good job. But still, that wasn't good enough for my mother because I didn't have a girlfriend and I wouldn't be having any. She won't be having any grandchildren. Well, I was married at the time and a friend of mine, a friend of ours, One of my former wife kind of got me started [00:29:00] dressing in her underwear and stuff, and that's basically how it started and just walked up to, I guess where I am today. Uh, I'm no longer married, but, uh, I think I'm happier now. Anyway, at first, I wasn't really that passable and they sort of reacted. Some [00:29:30] reacted like, Oh, like So what? You know, those made remarks and all kinds of stuff like that, but I just ignored him and just said, Well, you know, if that's the way they feel, that's the way they feel. And most people nowadays cannot tell I mean, there are some that that just have a sense for it and just, uh, know that there's something different about this person. But most people [00:30:00] just treat me just like a lady when I out. In fact, I've been taking for a lady dressed as a male, too. So cause I'm a I'm a school bus driver here in Philadelphia, and I were earrings to work. Every day I work or something else, and I've been taken by not my kids on my route, but my kids on [00:30:30] I've taken our trips. It's being a lady and I don't say anything. I just say no. Hey, if they think it's a lady driving a bus, then it's a lady driving a bus. You know, I'm kind of thin out on on top as far as hair goes, so I wear. I do wear a hat, I wear a cowboy hat as well, and I just basically, just don't try to correct on anybody. [00:31:00] And the people that know my co workers know I trust I've been to three the last three Christmas boys of contrast as a lady. Er they don't most of them don't see them live some of them makes night remark on, but most of them are. Except my like my outside was always being You do what you wanna do. My wife, when I was married, [00:31:30] at first she accepted it and then she rejected it. So I don't know exactly what the story was there and as far as the rest of my family Oh, my father has been deceased since 1970 and my mother never did. Now my sister, she is deceased now, too. And my sister does know that [00:32:00] I dress but has not really accepted it. I mean, she accepts the lifestyle as far as me being a female in appearance, but she doesn't really want me to dress in front of her, which I have not done buy out a request. But she just tells me to be careful and just have fun and be careful. That's all we'll try to try [00:32:30] to. Usually when I go out, I go out with friends. It's always in a trans site, and we usually just go out to clubs or whatever. We may meet some people, but nothing really serious has come out of that so far, and we just we just go out and have a good time. We don't try to, uh, don't we try to get picked [00:33:00] up, But once in a while, we do meet people. My brother, who was a minister, found out about it. He hasn't talked to me or had any relation with me whatsoever since 1980. Uh, so that's 20 years of, uh, deciding that I was not worth being a brother to any longer. And my mother, also very religious, left me, uh, deciding [00:33:30] that I had ruined her name and and hidden all of this from her that I was unworthy. But my father stayed with me, and my father helped me on the on the sidelines without anybody knowing about it. And he was wonderful. But of course, they're both gone now. All this time, of course, with four degrees, uh, up to a PhD. I, uh, knew [00:34:00] knew full well that there wasn't anything wrong with homosexuality, that it was just, uh, another orientation of life. Uh, the good lord made diversity in everything he created. So why should people be any different? And I I got an intellectual and an emotional satisfaction too. Uh, my situation although I was saddened by what I did to my wife and my Children, fortunately, stayed with me, too. Uh, my father didn't care, and I mean, [00:34:30] he cared. But, I mean, he wasn't going to stop loving me, and neither were my Children, but they were not as religious as the mother and the brother. And I think that is a testament to what happens with people who are really not truly religious, but into religiosity or church or whatever you might want to call it. But as a professor of psychology, it is clear in my mind that there's absolutely nothing wrong with me. There never was. [00:35:00] And the problem is really with society. I decided not to tell anybody until I graduated high school. It's because I grew up in a very small town, and, um, it was it wasn't something I wanted everybody to know. Right after that, I was I was just too scared. Yet when I graduated, um, I told my both of my parents and, um, have two sets of parents. They're divorced, So I told [00:35:30] my dad and my stepmother first, and they were very, very, um accepting about it, and they uh, we were a little concerned about me and, uh, that I knew what I was doing. This is what I wanted. Um, they weren't They didn't know too much about anything about it, So, um, they wanted to learn more about it, so it was really good. It made me feel a lot better. Uh, my mom, on the other hand, [00:36:00] um, wasn't so well with it. My step dad was absolutely fine. He's probably the best. And, um, my mom just had a problem with it just because, um, she didn't want to see me get hurt or, um, anybody to look at me different, like as a mother usually does in that case. But, um, she is doing very well now with it. And, um, I believe, um, she is getting a lot more comfortable with it day by day. And, uh, she's always there for me, no matter what. Um, [00:36:30] what? My problem is or, uh, what my question is, and she'd never turn her back on me for us to know that, um, everybody was there for me. Uh, my friends, on the other hand, were a different story. Um, you lose friends and you gain friends when you go to high school, no matter what. And I just was very honest about everything that about my life. And I didn't want anything to be a big secret. I was who I was. And, um, sometimes I just don't talk to anymore. Sometimes I do. [00:37:00] So, I mean, in general, it was it. It was a It was a great time for the story. And I never changed it for anything in In my in my life. It's really changed who I was. And, um, a lot, A lot about what I learned about life and experiences. Yeah. Just you know how important getting yourself really is. And, um, not trying to hold back anything before anybody or because of anything when I actually told my parents that was a That was a real [00:37:30] disaster. Um, they're very, very religious. And, um, we still haven't, like, been able to completely resolve resolve this. They think I'm going to go to hell. They they really think, um um I? I don't know. There's There's just a lot we still have to work out on that. Um, but but the situation where I actually told my parents um, it was it was in the middle of a fight that we were having, um, just talking about whether I could drive the car. I'd just gotten my driver's licence, and we were talking about, um, [00:38:00] property. Like I they they said I didn't respect their property. And I said they didn't respect me in general. And, um, it sort of We started throwing out, like, specific details. And, like, I was trying to just sort of, like, do atop that thing like, Well, I didn't throw out the shower this morning. Well, fine. You don't respect this, and you don't respect that. And, you know, you don't respect my homosexuality. And, like, Oh, it was just a really horrible, horrible way to do that. I wish I wish when I when I would have come out to them that it would have been in a more, um, more calm, uh, a more [00:38:30] calm setting. I wish that I would have had, like, a lot more, uh, I. I wish I would have had better social skills, better communication skills. Um, they pretty much ignored it. Um, they they acted like I hadn't said it and just sort of went on with the argument, and, uh, they never spoke about it again after that for quite a while. Um, the next the next. I really heard him mention of it every now and then. Um, if I had a friend over, you know, I'll be like, Well, you know who [00:39:00] is that? Is he gay? Does he know you think you're gay? It was always, you know, do I think I'm gay? Um, they they they had a really hard time. Um, accepting the fact that, you know, it's not It's not like a a temporary thing or or a choice thing. Um, so, yeah, I mean, they they right now, they're actually making a really big effort to to be really accepting, and it's really cool. It it makes a I don't I It makes it. It makes a big difference [00:39:30] to me. It means a lot to me because I know how, um, how rigid their belief system is in a way, and the fact that they're they're sort of like stepping beyond that to me. Um, just like seeing through the dogma to to me as a person. Um, I don't that that really means a lot. It's really It's really special. Well, when I first came out to my friends, I well, I, I guess I was really worried. Um, it's just that you don't know what sort of reaction. It wasn't [00:40:00] that I wasn't scared that I'd lose them as friends or anything like that. I mean, you know, So what if I did? It's not a tragedy. Um, but I guess it it meant having men to confront, you know, you know something. Not very pleasant. Like, um, you know, if they said something dreadful or, you know, made some derogatory comments or something like that. So it really wasn't the the friendships. I mean, they're they're valuable, of course, but not as valuable as my identity and my feeling good about myself. Um and really, I found that, [00:40:30] um, people I just said Oh, yeah, I thought so. Or, um, there was not much reaction at all. Or, um, don't recall. There's no reaction. That is, I guess, significant enough for me to have a great memory of, um all positive. Um, I can't think of any really negative ones. Um, but generally, people you know, if people aren't really interested, [00:41:00] it's kind of, you know, you read the body language, and the eyes move, and the subject changes. But never ever have I encountered any, um, any form of, uh, and, uh um, a response that I wouldn't call, you know, um, normal. Um, haven't felt any Haven't felt any sort of, um, aggression or, um, disappointment or anything like that. I [00:41:30] know people do. I mean, I know people do experience. I'd have a, um a great deal of problems with it, but yeah, I generally found that, You know, most people are sort of quite happy that, um you know that you are a bit more confident or that you do feel, you know, that you do appear a little bit more. Um, happy. Um, um I suppose a lot of people really, you know, deep down do know. Anyway, um, sometimes before you do, I haven't actually come out to [00:42:00] my parents officially, but this all happened around my 21st birthday. And, um, the fact that this new person was suddenly around all the time who hadn't been in my life before my parents became very Susi suspicious. And although I thought my boyfriend was fairly straight acting. And I'm assuming they my parents picked up the body language between us, which, um, I didn't really know that we were making [00:42:30] such obvious sort of flirtations across the room or whatever you would like to call it. But they saw a change in my mannerisms or whatever and did confront me about it. Um, and I wasn't expecting the question at the time, so they didn't actually ask if I was gay, but they asked if my boyfriend was and me not being prepared for the question. I just said No, of course not. Don't be silly. And I went away because I wasn't [00:43:00] living with my parents at the time I was living in Brisbane. Um, I went back to university for three months, and then at the end of the year, it was Christmas and I'd gone home again, expecting the question to be put to me again because I was still seeing this person. He was still around all the time, and this time I was prepared for the question and I would have said Yes, I am Oh, yes, he is. And yes, I am as well. However, the question was never put to me again. And so not [00:43:30] knowing whether to rock the boat or what to do, I just ignored it. And I always And it has just been that unspoken thing ever since. Um, so in my mind, I think that they know. But I think it's one thing to have it, um in your in your mind is I think my son is gay and another thing for your son to come to you and say Yes, I am So it's not confirmed to them although they had asked my sister about her comments about it. [00:44:00] Um, and she does know about me and I used to live with her. And she's very open minded about things like that and her. Her only comment was she denied knowing, but she said to them, I don't know if he is or isn't. Why don't you ask him? But if he says yes, what would it matter? And their one comment was they didn't care whether I was or not, but they would be very concerned that somebody had made me that way again, sort of linking back to their [00:44:30] comments in previous years that if I was around gay people they would try and convert me and all that sort of thing. So there's always been this fear that all this misunderstanding that somehow if I ended up gay, it wasn't through my own development. It was because of outside influences. I went to a support group called icebreakers, which was back in those days. I don't know if it's still around there, and, um, I met a couple of guys who I worked with there, [00:45:00] and, um, friends of mine introduced me to another guy who actually lived where I lived in. And, um, Mum asked me how I met this guy and what his intentions were. And I said, Just a friend, he was a lot older than me. He was 11 years older than me, but it was never It was never a sexual thing. And, um so she asked me, in plain words, Was he an a bandit? And I said, I don't know what you mean. I had an idea, but I didn't want to [00:45:30] say it. And she said, Is he gay? And I said, Yes, he is. And she asked me how it was, and I said no. Oh, and the reason why I said no was because, um, the timing was not right. I did not feel the time was right to come out to my mum to tell her I was gay. I had to wait for the right moment. And, um, she kept pestering me and pestering me for weeks and weeks. We argued over it, we had bad fights over it. And one day I just gave her and couldn't handle it any longer and told her I was gay and she kept telling me it'd [00:46:00] be OK. It'll be OK. And, um so I thought, maybe she will be OK because she liked my friends who she knew were gay. So I thought if she can accept them, she can accept her own son. And I told her I was and, um, things got messy. Um, we didn't talk for probably I. I walked out of home, I couldn't handle the strain and things got messy. We didn't talk for about four months, and, um then we started getting talking again and the way [00:46:30] we are now or have been for the last four or five years. We've never been so close. Never. So, um, it pays off it does pay off in the long run. They do accept you better because they know you're honest with them. There's no more lives than hurt, and I think the reason why she's so understanding now is because she knows I'm not gonna get married and have kids. And then later on, I find out and hurt a lot of people's lives break up a lot of people's lives, so I think she's in a way happy I [00:47:00] am. I know what I am now and not when I'm 35 40 etcetera. So and I I also look back at home and, um, my stepfather and that who she's remarried is awesome. It's the best thing for her and it's been the best thing best thing for me, not a problem at all. They can both sit there and watch a gay programme on TV and not even get disgusted. Actually found it interesting and understand me better that because [00:47:30] they class the average gay person as being feminine, dressing up a woman's clothing and you know, performing an or sex and they know I don't do not. They know I do not do any of those, so they just see me as being a normal heterosexual guy. But I'm gay who prefers men, and they don't even class me as being gay because I'm not gay orientated. They just see him as a normal person, and it's really good for me, too, because [00:48:00] I am just a normal guy. What was really useful for me being born in 1955 and then when I had an emerging interest in socialising and music and life in general. Outside of school, you had rock stars like David Bowie and Mick Jacket making bisexuality like a really acceptable, if not fashionable thing to be. So it was quite safe to say that it was great to be bisexual, and it was good to explore [00:48:30] the sides of your sexuality. And I had friends of mine. Like my best friend from school was a man who came out to me once as having had sex with a mutual friend. And when David told me that one night he'd showed me a record and inside was a a note from the mutual friend Michael and it said to David, thanks for the wonderful time we had together last night. All my love Michael and like, because they would just show me the [00:49:00] album and he didn't say anything. But when I looked at it, I knew everything that was entailed in this. And I just remember shaking feeling, um, a huge reaction because all of a sudden it wasn't just a topic anymore. It wasn't something that we all agreed was acceptable, but it was actually happening. And years later, um, when David and another girlfriend had had a big dinner party at their place. Uh, David said, because [00:49:30] I was the last guest to leave, he said, We'd really like you to stay. You know, you should stay overnight And I said, I know you know, I've got work tomorrow or such, but I'll be fine And he said, No. Linda and I would particularly like you to stay with us, and I had that same shaking feeling because it was so obvious that David had actually felt an attraction for me like I'd always felt for him. But I'd never been able to actually put into words or into action, and it was a [00:50:00] great night of fun. And it helped confirm to me that even though like Linda being there. That was good fun. But for me, what made the whole night was the fact that I was actually able to enjoy physically being in bed with and having sex with a man who was my best friend throughout high school and, ah, who is still a good friend of mine. Even though he's like the other side of the world away, A good part recently was through the Internet. I wonder if the Internet catching up with David and broaching [00:50:30] the subject for the first time in like, 20 years, and that was just great to learn that for him, it had been something significant. It it had been wank fodder for him over the last 20 odd years, even though he hadn't had sex with another man since that time.

IRN: 299
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/ralph_knowles_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003903
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089197
TITLE: Ralph Knowles
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ralph Knowles
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1950s; 1960s; Dunedin; Ralph Knowles; aversion therapy; coming out; gay; health; mental health; mental illness; profile; theatre
DATE: 3 December 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Christchurch, Christchurch, Canterbury
CONTEXT: In this podcast Ralph Knowles talks about growing up and taking part in aversion therapy in the 1960s. Ralph died on 3 July 2019.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, uh, my name is Ralph Knowles. Uh, and I was born in Dunedin. Uh, in 1944. Um, our household was a pretty typical North Dunedin household, And those days it was a very residential neighbourhood. So that, uh, there were Children in our house? I have, uh, three siblings, uh, and another brother who died before I was born, which is another part of my story. But, um, and [00:00:30] neighbouring Children all went to the same school. Um, very different now, because the University of Otago has bought every property I've had any contact with in Dunedin. Uh, and there are now, um, university facilities on those sites. But, um uh, a happy fifties childhood. Um I mean, I think now of Dunedin has been very cold and and wet, but in my memory, they were They were [00:01:00] summer days playing with with George and Anne and Frances and Peter and other people in the in the neighbourhood. And I went to state primary and state secondary schools. Nothing very unusual there. Although the primary school I was in was a, um, a model attached to the Dunedin Teachers College, and it was designed to, uh, give trainee students. The opportunity, [00:01:30] um, to meet the sort of set they would find if they were teaching in a country school so that it was standard 1 to 4. And it was all people from one neighbourhood. So I had siblings and neighbours in in my class at at George Street Normal. You mentioned about your your brother passing away. What happened there? Uh, he died at age eight, of a brain tumour, Um, in 1943. So [00:02:00] that was in the war. And my father wasn't at home. He he didn't leave New Zealand, but he was away in armed forces. Um, Barry was a obviously a a bright and likeable uh, boy. And the impact of his death, uh, was very, very strong on my mother. So that I I was really in my twenties before we could risk [00:02:30] openly referring to Barry. Not that mum, you know, went hysterical or or made a scene or anything. But you just knew that this was an area that, um that you should stay away from. And my aunt suggested to me once that I do the arithmetic of when I would have been conceived in relation to the first anniversary of Barry's death. I think it's quite likely that Dad was home on leave on [00:03:00] that anniversary. So Barry died January 1943. Dad at home, January 1944. Ralph was born in November 1944. My aunt, my aunt raised that with me. Uh, just didn't make anything of it, but just suggested that I'd do the arithmetic. Who knows? Um, I think to some extent I was the son who replaced Barry. And [00:03:30] since in those early days the psychiatrists were always wanting to know what your relationship with your mother was like and whether your father was absent and all that sort of business, I can't help wondering if there was some significance to that. Can you give me some examples as to why you thought that it was really only once I started reading about homosexuality and and the endless causes, you know, absent father, a father, [00:04:00] dominant mother and all that stuff. Uh, in those days when they were when they were really pushing the family relationships as a likely cause of homosexuality, and so I was reflecting on it and looking for anything that might have been different for me. I don't actually hold by it now. I'm but I did think about at the time. So how would you describe yourself as a child? [00:04:30] Um, happy Bit, Bit weedy, um, you know, inclined to bronchitis and asthma and things like that, but not not clinically. So, um and, um, intelligent got on well, with my with my school mates Got good, good results at school. Um, socially confident. Um, some of those [00:05:00] things faded as the years went by, but, uh, that's that's how I see myself. Uh, we've still got We've still got the minute book of the class meetings from about 1954 to 58. And, of course, my sister was also in the class, and I've already mentioned two neighbours and you know, Ralph Noles said, and and the chairman, Ralph Knowles ruled, and all this sort of thing it was This was the teacher's attempt at introducing us [00:05:30] to to democracy or Democratic processes. Uh, and it's really quite embarrassing to read that minute book now. But the Knowles family had a lot to say in those meetings. So can you paint for me a picture of what it was like just post war 19 fifties Dunedin. What? How was it like growing up in in that kind of environment? Um, I wasn't aware of missing out on anything, Really. I mean, I knew that there were other parts of town where people [00:06:00] were better off. Uh, but, you know, some of the measures in the neighbourhood? Uh, not everyone had a car, but we did not. Everyone had a telephone, but we did. Um, we had one of the larger properties in terms of area. Uh, most of the houses nearby had two houses on a section the size of ours. So we had a big front lawn, so we were often the centre of of neighbourhood, um, games and [00:06:30] and so forth. Um, all sorts of things that are so different now, you know, there was a corner dairy. Uh, you went you walked a few blocks to the butcher or or in a pre supermarket. I actually had a job as a as a delivery boy for the local dairy. And, uh, during that time. So, um, around age 12 by the end. So what are we saying? Mid fifties? Um, he he started [00:07:00] the sort of mini market. He started to serve yourself. Until then, it had been a counter behind which you stood and served customers and and so on. Um, the church was nearby. All Saints church. Um, all saints church Figured a lot in my early days there. I was born on All Saints Day. Uh, and my 21st birthday was the the day that the parish turned 100. So it was all terribly, you know, significant. I'm not [00:07:30] suggesting meant in any way, but it was just, you know, significant. Um, I went to Sunday school there, uh, joined the boys choir before my voice changed. Uh, and after that, I became a server. Um, that's one of the altar service. We belong to what was called the Guild of Servants of the Sanctuary and took it all terribly seriously. That led on to my sense of vocation to the Anglican priesthood. So you know that my [00:08:00] my involvement in church activities Sunday school, Bible class choir serving and so on was quite significant, which was interesting. Mum was a reasonably dedicated Anglican dad, was agnostic, if not atheist and really didn't show much interest at all in, uh, in our religious upbringing. So what drew you to the church in the first place? Look, really, Just that it was a bit like, [00:08:30] you know, you went to school, you went to Sunday school. It was nothing more significant than that. But, um, many people just have something in life where that that fascinates them. Um, in the case of my partner, David, with whom I lived for many years, it was it was horse racing. He had a lot of other interests, too, some more intellectual than horse racing. But, uh, and and he and I used to joke about it because my interest in religion [00:09:00] and his interest in horse racing were much the same in terms of the practical impact. You know, if you if I saw an article in the paper about the church overseas or some theologian, I was fascinated by it. If he saw an article about some scandal in the horse racing industry was and you know, they both had a calendar in the sense that there were the, you know, the church calendar of events during the year and the and the racing calendar was the same. Uh, there were rituals, Church rituals and, you know, the parading [00:09:30] around the the bird cage at a at a race meeting colours, eucharistic vestments and purple and green and red and so on. And then jockey's colours. And we joked about the fact horse racing wasn't really all that important to him. Uh, but he was fascinated by it and couldn't pass by any piece of information about horse racing. And I was a bit the same about about religion. Um, as an adult, it's meant more [00:10:00] than that. Um, but I'm I'm not a fervent believer. I'm heavily involved, but I'm not actually a F believer, Uh, which is a strange sort of thing, but it's just any piece of news. Any you know, I now subscribe to several websites and and online news services. I read them every day. So back in 19 fifties Dunedin, [00:10:30] what was your world made up of? In terms of the diversity of people in your world? North Dunedin in those days was white. Uh, it's going to add Anglo Saxon Protestant, but that's not quite fair. There were Catholic families, Uh, but we didn't really have anything to do with them. They went. They went to other schools. Um, we were aware of them. There was a certain amount of shouting abuse at each other, but it was all pretty lighthearted, so [00:11:00] the neighbourhood was really very monochrome. Um, but among my friends, several boys, several girls, Um, I had sisters. My older brother had more or less left home. By the time I was growing up, there was quite an age gap between us. Um, not a not a wide range of socioeconomic difference. Uh, although there were families in the district which we were conscious [00:11:30] of being better off, um, particularly if they had overseas funds and could, in those days, buy a, uh, an English or an American car and which, in in the fifties in New Zealand was really reserved to farmers and doctors. And in the case of our neighbourhood, the our father, Charles Harrison, was English and obviously still had overseas funds. So he had [00:12:00] new English cars. What about in terms of, uh, homosexuality? Was there any mention when you were growing up of homosexuality? Uh, not not as such, um, about, uh, I was aware of adult conversation about some people whom I now know are homosexual and I knew that they were being talked about in a in sort [00:12:30] of some slight, scandalous way. Uh, I had the the gym teacher at Dunedin North Intermediate. So we're talking in 56 57. By the 1956 1957 the gym teacher there was known to be gay. Uh, he went on to become, um, a professional actor and appeared in one or two, English TV programmes. Uh, there were other people around who were known to be gay. And I'm thinking [00:13:00] William, Menlo and Bernard who were prominent people in the in the theatre scene in Dunedin, and I should at some point mention the theatre scene in Dunedin because it was significant in my adolescent years. Um, so just an awareness that the that that there were men who lived with us. Really? What I would say with men? Um, no, [00:13:30] I don't remember any sense of disgust or scandal, Really, But, uh, and yet I still picked up the impression that this was all a bit sort of doubtful, you know, not not quite proper. We're using the word gay. Is that a word that would have been used for what what wording would be used? No, Um, one of them, [00:14:00] that was Is he one of them? You know, that was that was pretty difficult. I don't remember what was what was said there was There was some theory that you were a bit suspicious if you wore white socks. I remember that, Uh, who knows, You know, real men wear pink these days, but in those days, white socks were were a giveaway. Um, I. I mean, I've been thinking about other words that were used at the [00:14:30] time, but I'm not suggesting that they were used in my family or in conversation that I ever heard. But, you know, deviant queer, uh, invert, uh, fairy, uh, faggot. More US than New Zealand. But fairy was reasonably common. And then the other ones, you know, shirt lifter and poo pusher and other things like that. So were they words that you actually heard at the time, or is this reflecting [00:15:00] back a bit of both? Queer? Certainly. Um, would be would be the main one. So, what age were you aware of these conversations starting to happen? Well, I think I would have been about 10 or 11. So saying 1954 55. It was at about that time that I was becoming sexually aware myself. Uh, though [00:15:30] I couldn't at those at that time, I put the the label homosexual on myself. But by then I knew that I was growing up differently from my boyhood friend George. Uh, as his sexual awareness developed, he was interested in women and looking at the magazine for pictures of of nude women and so forth, and I realised that I wasn't really interested. Um, [00:16:00] and thinking back, uh, I've got I've still got a couple of books that were given to me Children's books that were given to me, uh, in as early as 1952 which had illustrations in them, uh, of of men who who near naked or naked. I mean, one was, uh, how the Maoris lived. And there was a picture of of, you know, um, tattooed buttocks. And there was AAA story about Aladdin, where [00:16:30] the genie was wearing nothing but a sort of loin cloth. And I was fascinated by those. Now we're talking in 1952 53. So I'm sort of 89, but by 10 or 11 I was really aware of the difference between the way George George's interests were developing and the way my interests were developing. [00:17:00] Can you give me some examples of why do you say that? Why? I can't remember exactly why we were doing it. But the the I mentioned the capping magazine before, uh, there was a camping magazine that had that had some caricature or cartoon picture of a nude woman on it. And George was George wanted me. I was a bit more artistic than he was. George wanted me to trace that and, you know, and and and and copy it for him and so forth. And I thought, [00:17:30] I'm much more interested in in the picture of Superman in his tights, do you know? And And I was conscious of that, um, and there was another another occasion when there was a There was an exhibition of of nude photography at Glen way down the Otago Peninsula. Well, George, you know, we got our bikes and we biked all the way down, and we tried to get into Glen, but we [00:18:00] didn't have and so on. I mean, it was just he he he was obsessed with the idea of getting to see this photographic exhibition. And I sort of thought Oh, yeah. So those thoughts that you were starting to have and that the the being conscious of of, uh, feelings towards men can you describe what those feelings were? Was it just [00:18:30] an intense interest? Or was it something? No. An intense interest. Um, uh, I mean, at that age, boyhood friendships are more intense than friendships with girls. Anyway, uh, so it was only once we were getting past that point that I that the the different social interest became evident. I can't be more specific than that, Really. It just AAA growing awareness that my interest was in the male [00:19:00] body when other boys interest was in the female body. And did that concern you? No, not really. Um, being being homosexual is never really greatly concerned me, which is an interesting thing when we're going to eventually be talking about aversion therapy. But, uh um and you know, a lot of people might think, [00:19:30] you know, did you realise it was wrong? Well, I don't think I ever thought of it as wrong. I thought of it as different. I did know that it wasn't something that you talked about. That's not quite the same thing as as thinking it was wrong. I mean, later on, I knew that the church identified it as sinful, and I tried to address that. But not even that really exercised me greatly. I think I was remarkably lucky [00:20:00] from that point of view that a lot of people of my generation were, uh, overwhelmed by guilt and shame. And neither of those has really been part of my life, which I think is something of the, uh, security of my upbringing and a happy family. So, as as a as a, uh, as a teenager or a young boy growing up, Um, did you actively go around looking for people with white socks? [00:20:30] No, but I was fascinated by this. Um, I must have picked up clearly. Well, we talked before about it being men who lived with men. Uh, I was certainly intrigued by that. And then, as as I developed, knew once I was sexually, um, maturing. Well, that was quite different. I mean, um, by then I wasn't just looking for men with white socks. [00:21:00] What about the theatre scene in Dunedin. You were saying that was quite a big part of your growing up as well. Um, in, I think, 1959. That's my fourth form year. Uh, a a friend. A high school friend, um, introduced me to the Globe Theatre. The production that year was hemlock, and they wanted a couple of boys to play [00:21:30] the king and the queen in the play within the play. And Keith was the king was the queen, and I was the king. And so we became involved in the Globe Theatre Patrick and Rosalie Carey. And, uh, that was absolute news to me. I'd never been to a theatre production in my life before. My family, um, they quite well read and reasonably cultured, [00:22:00] uh, weren't involved in theatre or anything of that sort. And so I was fascinated by all that and fascinated by the people that I met there as well. Uh, and I went on and was in the duchess of and waiting for, uh, always as a as a boy and rex. I was the boy that led the blind Tyus around and waiting for God. I. I was the boy that that turns up [00:22:30] and talks to them in the last stages of the play. Um, and so II. I became aware then that of of people who were obviously or theatrical obvious, uh, several of whom were homosexual and one or two of whom I came across, Uh, later. Not that I socialise with them, but II I met them here and there. Um, and [00:23:00] it was significant because, um, my French teacher knew that I was a wee bit involved in in the theatre world. And so when the university French club, or Fran wanted a boy for a play, my French teacher put my name forward. So I was II. I played the boy, the school boy in a production that the French club at the university was putting on [00:23:30] and one of the other bit part players who was a few years older than me, perhaps six years older than me had been at boys. Um, he and I were both on at the beginning of the play and the end of the play. So we were hanging around for an hour or more in between times, and he he propositioned me. He introduced the topic. Had I read Peyton Place now, many people won't even remember Peyton Place. But war was a was [00:24:00] a raunchy novel at the time. Uh, and I said, yes, I had. And And did it turn me on? Yes, it did. And that led to my first significant sexual experience with another man. And, uh, I can I can still feel the impact, the excitement of undoing his flight. I mean, you know, we're talking 55 years later. Um, [00:24:30] So the theatre world had put me in touch with that. That was my first significant sexual experience. Uh, and I treasure that moment. Really? And so I'm wondering what happened between being kind of sexually active at 14 and 15 and not necessarily having a problem with homosexuality and then wanting to go and seek treatment for homosexuality. [00:25:00] What? What? What happened? Let's bring two things together. Um, my interest in the church, my increasing involvement with, you know, Bible class altar servers and so forth. I. I thought I assumed a vocation to the Anglican priesthood. So that's one thing on one side. On the other is that I then knew that I was homosexual. Um, I couldn't have put this description on by then, but I But I can now say [00:25:30] that I'm McKinsey six. That is to say, someone who is completely and utterly homosexual and devoid of heterosexual reaction. Um, so you've got those two things and they were intention, um, not worried about being gay, but wanting to be in the church and knowing the church wasn't all that thrilled about that. What really brought it to a head was that in my first year or two at Selwyn [00:26:00] at Otago University in 1963 64. So by then, I'm 1920. I began a relationship, a sexual relationship with one of the other theological students. Now we both we were both in the same parish, and we both reported to the same parish priest who was very good to me, but also was appalled [00:26:30] that this guy and I were in a sexual relationship. And to be fair, um I mean, I think I think the guy was probably basically heterosexual and certainly went on and married and had kids and so forth. Um, I. I don't know quite what why he allowed himself to be involved, but anyway, we were We were sexually involved for a short period of time, and and the parish priest knew both our stories [00:27:00] and wasn't happy with that and suggested to me that that really, uh, homosexuality was a problem, Uh, and that we ought to do what we could about addressing it. And he suggested that I consult the student health psychiatrist, um, which I was perfectly happy to do. And that student [00:27:30] health psychiatrist was Dr Basil James who, uh, I now know, uh had pioneered, um, aversion therapy in England. So we're now talking late 1964. And by then I'd done a lot of reading about homosexuality. I had read reports of psychoanalysis and various, you know, group therapy and [00:28:00] those what? I couldn't see any of those having any effect on me, but I've never heard of behavioural therapy. And Basil James explained the behaviourist approach to human sexuality, said that he thought that my homosexual interests were were, um, learned and that if something [00:28:30] had been learned whenever, but if something had been learned, it could be unlearned. And he was he was a proponent of behaviour modification. Just before we go on with, uh, with that, I'm just wondering if you can just rewind a wee bit. And with the the priest saying it was a problem, Do you think that at the time the wider community felt that homosexuality was a problem? [00:29:00] Look, I never experienced it, but, I mean, it was still, uh, as far as medicine was concerned. That's what we're talking about. It was sick. Uh, as far as the law was concerned, it was a crime. As far as the church was concerned, it was a sin. And, um, if you read in the papers truth in particular, uh, the reports of scandalous things I have to say most of the things I read about in in the newspapers [00:29:30] at the time tended to be what we would now call, um, paedophilia. And that's never been the issue for me. Uh, I mean, I was interested as a as a young man. I was interested in older men and was an older man. I'm interested in younger men, but never in never in kids. It was never it was never an issue. Um, and most of the newspaper reports were about those sorts of cases, [00:30:00] but one guy that I met quite often on the beat uh, and once went home with and whose name I know, um appeared in the court papers he'd been He'd been arrested for loitering, uh, and was convicted and was jailed. So but that that was that. So that was what the the wider world thought about it. But I wasn't conscious of that in my own in my own family or [00:30:30] even in the neighbourhood. Unspoken rather than I mean, just not talked about rather than talked about with revulsion or disgust. And did you have any conflict within yourself about what you were doing? I really didn't. I guess I should have, But I really didn't. Um I knew this was me. Um, in so far as I thought about it, I thought, Well, OK, God's [00:31:00] created me in this way. Can't be all bad. I might have a lot of thoughts about how I dealt with it, what I did with it. But in terms of actually being homosexual, it's It's never I just thought Oh, yeah, OK, well, that's who I am. And so your relationship with this other student, uh uh, did you ever talk about what you were doing or it was just more of a physical thing. Physical thing. Really? Yeah. [00:31:30] I mean, I was in love with him. Was he with me? Who knows? Uh, I mean, we spent all our spare time with each other. We went away on holidays together. Um, um, this is before it became sexual. We'd we'd we'd been best friends for a year or two by then. Um, and just, you know, 11 night he'd been teasing me about sexually. I mean, uh, and [00:32:00] I just said, basically put up or shut up and he put up teasing you. In what way? Oh, I just knew I was gay and and knew that I found him attractive. Um, yeah, just being a bit provocative in the way we were right on holiday, saying just a bit provocative in the way he, um, undressed or the way the way he talked about himself. [00:32:30] And so you and he would both tell the priest what was what was going on. Well, we were both high anglicans. Um, if, um, which meant that sacramental confession was part of the church discipline. Uh, and what you, you know, fronted up to where you thought you'd fallen short of the standard and expressed regret for her. [00:33:00] So that's that's That's the context in which it would come out. Uh, and he would he the parish priest would have needed because he'd heard it from me. I was just thinking about conflict of, of, of a confessional secrecy. But anyway, he, uh that that's how that's how he came to suggest that I see student health psychiatrist. Was there anything you didn't tell the priest? No, [00:33:30] no, no. That wasn't that wasn't the deal, Really? You fronted up. He was a He was a good guy. He he, uh, quite apart from the business with this other student, he, uh he was also unhappy on my behalf with the amount of cruising I was doing. And he, uh he was really quite kind. It must have been pre decimal currency. I guess it was That was 67 wasn't it? Because he, uh, he he gave he gave [00:34:00] me a A coin. Uh, I think it was a penny, uh, which would have been the cost of a telephone call. And he said, I want you to carry this with you. And if you are ever in trouble or if you feel you've got yourself into a situation which you can't handle. Or indeed, if you just want to stop what you are doing, you ring me at any time, day or night. I never did, but, uh, there was a It was a pretty [00:34:30] pastorally sensitive way of approaching things. I thought so. What did you think When, uh, it was suggested that you you go and talk to a psychiatrist? I really thought that. See that this parish priest was also one of the bishops advisors. So he had some responsibility for the formation of, uh, theological students. And I thought that I thought it was reasonable for him to say this is a problem. I mean, I couldn't [00:35:00] quite imagine. Yeah, it's all a bit different now, But in those days, um, by and large, anger and clergy were expected to be, you know, happily married. So although there were a few, um, celibate or single clergy around, um, I, I guess I accepted that life would be easier as an Anglican priest if I was straight. I had no great desire to be straight [00:35:30] and had no great belief that anything I'd heard of up to then would make any difference, but that nevertheless, uh, life would probably be easier. And if the church was asking me to give this a go, then I should give it a go. I still think that was the right thing to do the and we're jumping ahead. But it having failed, I felt I'd given it a go. I had done [00:36:00] what was expected of me. It hadn't worked, and it was time to get on with life at the time. I mean, we're talking about, um, kind of gay and straight at the time. Was it conceivable to have a, for instance, a gay lifestyle where you actually lived quite happily with another man? Or are we talking gay, being sexual encounters that were kind of random? And, uh, [00:36:30] I was certainly thinking of of a partner that I lived with, and I just couldn't see Ralph and David, uh, being accepted in the Winton Vicarage. Now it's a bit unfair on Winton, isn't it? I'm just thinking, if you a rural south or South Otago, I just you know, it just, uh although it happens now, uh, it it just that wasn't you couldn't really contemplate that. [00:37:00] Um I don't know how I thought we were going to manage that if, uh, but it was certainly worth giving changing a go when this new behaviourist theory had been put to me. Can you recall how you felt? Uh uh, uh, Waiting to to see the psychiatrist for the first time. Uh, it was It was late in the academic [00:37:30] year. I think I was pretty just sort of, um, focused on finals and that sort of thing. I don't remember any particular anxieties. Having agreed to go into hospital for this treatment really was an issue because I felt I really felt very strongly that I had to tell my parents what I was and what I was doing about it. And [00:38:00] that was a big, big tension. We got to the stage, the parish priest and I where I said, I really want to do it. I'm really dreading it. I I've got to do it. Uh, but if I don't get round to it, will you do it? And he said, Of course I will. I'll talk to your mother. One fact, I came out to Mom on the on the eve of going into hospital we'll come back to getting into hospital and telling your parents in a tick. But I'm just wondering when you first had the [00:38:30] meeting with Dr James, what was it like? Um, coming forward with the idea of homosexuality and and and seeing it as a problem. What? How did you How did you verbalise What was going on with you? I think, really, Just that that I was conscious that I was homosexual, that I was homosexually active, uh, that this was incompatible with the church's expectations. And, you [00:39:00] know, obviously he he knew how I had been referred. Um, that the the the preliminary interviews were were really a bit of a farce. I, I suppose I've read enough about, you know, psychotherapy and so forth. Um, you know, it was all the same old stuff, you know, talking about your mother and your father and your relationship with your siblings. You know, whether you've ever been, um, sexually interfered with and all sorts of perfectly standard [00:39:30] stuff reasonable for them to be asking. But you sort of thought Oh, here we go. It all seemed terribly predictable. And what was his attitude? Uh, he was a cool number Basil Jones. And I think that he I think he felt strongly that homosexuality was an unacceptable deviance and that [00:40:00] and that his professional duty was to do what he could to eradicate it. Um, because I certainly didn't present to him as a terribly troubled homosexual who had some heterosexual component that could be built on. I mean, I've since read enough about it to know that's the sort of thing they're looking for. Well, you know, someone who was really distressed, really determined to change [00:40:30] and who had some heterosexual experience. Um, and that just wasn't me. So what kind of language did he use? Can you remember that? Um I don't really, um I've I've since acquired his notes. Um, but they're almost illegible, and they're very, very brief and cryptic, so I really can't build. I can't recover that [00:41:00] cryptic In what way? What? Uh, just, you know, just the odd word. And and an abbreviation and and that sort of thing. Just a few little scratches on a page. Really? I'm sure they meant something to him at the time, but, uh, they they didn't mean much to me. I don't know. 50 years later. And how did he introduce the concept of behavioural therapy? He explained behavioural therapy that learned behaviour could be unlearned, uh, and [00:41:30] that, you know, the the number of troubling behaviours, uh, that could be addressed through a behaviour modification and mentioned, um, alcoholism. Gambling certainly gave you a fair indication of where he thought he fitted into the whole scheme of things, um and and and and then [00:42:00] just got straight into explaining what the actual process would be. Did he say if he had done this treatment before in New Zealand, He didn't. I I've since researched that. Yeah, no, I have no awareness of, uh I don't think I even I don't think it was even a reference to him having claimed success overseas. I mean, I know now that he had, but, um, that's not part of my memory of [00:42:30] it. So how did he sell it to you? Um, you've said you think it would be a good idea to address your problem. And here is this new or the Here is this process, which you have not previously considered. Um and I. I recommend that you undertake this treatment where there are other options [00:43:00] available in terms of treatments not offered by him. I mean, I guess there were, you know, psychotherapy. Well, to to be fair, when I because I wrote to him well, after their version therapy. And he did at that point, talk about, uh, other possibilities, particularly group therapy. Um, my experience of any sort of, um, group therapy of that sort tends to be that, [00:43:30] uh, you know, you certainly share your problems, but my view is that if there were two or three gay people in a group, you'd be far more likely to end up having sex than than than addressing you than addressing the problem. I don't know. So he he then went through the procedure of of actually what would happen. And how did you describe that? Uh, in very neutral terms. Uh, and [00:44:00] some of the details I didn't tune into at the time. It was only once I was actually there that I realised how awful it was gonna be. Really? Um, I don't mean he misled me. Uh, it just means that he concentrated sort of on the theory of it. You know, he did tell me what what would happen that he would be using a drug. I don't think he ever identified it, though I now know what it is. Um um, that there'll be a drug, and it would make me say I had to provide erotic images [00:44:30] and some anecdotes. Um, that I had found exci that would excite me. And he he used those anecdotes to make up a tape. Uh, that was played at the same time, Uh, of the treatment. Um, so I just describe what was involved. I. I, um the first thing I need to comment on is that I was admitted [00:45:00] to COHOON Ward in Dunedin, which was the psychiatric ward. Now, that's not a good start. And in those days, forgetting whether homosexuality was a particular issue, mental illness certainly was. And you certainly look twice at people who'd been in cohoon. Is this a public hospital? Yeah. Even in public. So into a small room, blacked out bed, nothing else. Um, the [00:45:30] first treatment dose of a tumbler of whiskey, a shot of apomorphine in the bum play. The tape starts off with the the anecdote. That's exciting. And then within a minute or so says, you know, um this is making you feel ill. You are feeling very sick. You are. And at that point, of course, the morphine effect and you throw up the whiskey and that's that session over. [00:46:00] After the first session, my blood pressure dropped drastically. I don't know why, but did so they had sort of modify things. And after that the sessions were every two hours, with some glucose and lime in between. No food through this period and no leaving the room. So I must have I must have urinated and defecated in the room. II. I don't actually remember that. Although I do remember the room getting you [00:46:30] know, more and more foul. I mean, he's a young man, early twenties, sweating and puking all over the place. So that was pretty grim. And that followed every two hours. So apomorphine and the tape, then followed by glucose and Lyme and then followed by another session of om morphine in the tape, on and on and on. How long were you there for? The records show? Nine days. I'm surprised [00:47:00] at that. I didn't think I was there that long. I mean, I knew I'd put up with several days of it. And then I decided I've had enough of this and I insisted When the arteries came in to give me another dose, I insisted on seeing Basil James. So he we had a discussion in which I said, Look, this is enough is enough I'm not continuing with this and he sort of said, Oh, you know, what would my parents think? And if I gave [00:47:30] up? And what would the church think if I gave up and da da da And he said, I really do suggest that you that you continue with this treatment So I said, OK, I will. And that appeared. The fact that I had now apparently acknowledged and given a commitment to continuing to attempt to go on with this attempt to change me apparently was what he was looking for because immediately the treatment stopped. [00:48:00] I'm up. I'm showered. The rooms curtains are put up. Flowers are put in the middle aged males turned into new young females. I still do. You see what I mean? II. I presume it was my commitment to continuing that he was looking for anyway. So that was session one. I want to go back over session one, just in a wee bit [00:48:30] more detail. But, uh, we haven't picked up the story of coming out to your parents. Can you recount how that happened? Yeah, well, uh, I mean, I felt that I couldn't. I mean, I didn't know how long I was going to be in hospital, but, you know, obviously it was going to be about 10 days at least. And I felt I really can't just disappear like this. It's just not what my relationship with Mum and Dad is like. So on the night before I went in, [00:49:00] I finally got around to talking to Mum. She was doing ironing, and I sort of said, Mum, you know, you you know, you know, I'm now turned 20 I still don't have a girlfriend. And you may have noticed on my bookshelf that there are a number of books about homosexuality. Uh, and I think I need to say that that's what I am and that I'm going into hospital for some treatment. That may make a difference to this. [00:49:30] And she said you'll need clean pyjamas. So that was I, you know, that was her matter of fact caring for her son response, and we really didn't talk about it. Anyway, she didn't want to talk about it anymore, but she accepted and accepted as what was happening. I don't think it came as any great surprise. Um, and she just wanted to make sure that I was clean and tidy, you know? [00:50:00] So have I talked about it since with her? Not significantly. Um, but it rapidly became See, Not long after that, I hitched up with with David the partner I had for 30 odd years. Uh, and he and I were just absorbed into the family and treated really as far as I can tell. Apart from weddings and wedding presents, we were treated [00:50:30] the same way that my married brothers and sisters were by both sides of the family, his, his family and and mine. Um, there was no pretence. Mum and Dad came to stay with us often. We went down there and stayed with them. That was all very matter of fact, which I thought was pretty good, because I mean I through other associations, I've known of people who who young men whose photos whose faces were cut out of family photos [00:51:00] because the family would not. Well, I mean, they were They were simply totally excluded. Written out of the record. That's just not my experience. I need to I need to make the general point. Um, you know, this notion that dogs bite people who expect to be bitten? Um, I sort of feel it applies to to my life in a way that the the young men I've dealt with who were terribly traumatised [00:51:30] and were having trouble with the bosses and workmates and so forth somehow I don't mean deserve it. But I assumed that I would be treated with respect for myself, that I was not going to be discriminated against even though it was still illegal. And that was my expectation. And I have to say that with very few exceptions and there were one or two with very few exceptions, family was OK. Friends were OK. [00:52:00] Employers were OK. Workmates were OK. And if I had any problem having books on your shelf about homosexuality, I mean, that must have been a a pointer for your mother. How did that come about? Well, you know by then you see, I'm a theological student by then So I was, You know, there were pastoral books. There were liturgical books, pastoral books, books about pastoral issues. Broadly, [00:52:30] um, I mean, there weren't raunchy gay novels. So it was things like DJ West's homosexuality and and things like that, and by then, a book which, um, which was really a how to do it manual. It was a book called Minority, Published by Gordon Westwood. That was a pseudonym for someone else. Um, and I shoplifted that from a bookshop in Dunedin. I was too ashamed to take up the counter and buy it. [00:53:00] This is confession time, Um, and and obviously, it was a sociological study full of heavy data, um, of research that was done in in England, Britain, England can't remember which, um, and but it had lots of anecdotal stuff. So it had people of about my age and inclination describing how they met someone in an underground toilet or whatever, and it was basically and this is what you do. These are the signs to look out for. These [00:53:30] are the risks you're taking. Do it yourself manual anyway. So So there was stuff like that, but it was, um I mean, it was in the context. I mean, it's not why I had them, but it was in the context of a wider range of of things to do with, you know, pastoral care and and other aspects of theological training. So when you told your mother and she said, Oh, you know, make [00:54:00] sure you pack your pyjamas. Uh, how did you feel? Had you had you booked this up in your mind? As this is, this is going to be a pivotal moment. Or I had Really, um, yes, I mean, I was I knew I had to do it. And I was dreading doing it, um, more out of embarrassment than any sense that I was going to be disowned. To be honest, I mean, our family, we we, uh, in terms of of, of family, [00:54:30] I had no sex education whatsoever. And I have to say that, uh, other men of my age had the same experience. Um, yeah. So sex wasn't such things sexual were just not talked about, Um, not we just We were all bright enough to know that this was an area that, you know, it wasn't a proper for dinner table conversation. Really? um, I talked to my younger [00:55:00] sister by then. Not to my older sister or brother. Not neither of them lived at home by then. Talk to my younger sister. Not an issue. I talked to an employer, not an issue. I talk to college friends, other theological students. Not an issue, But Mum, just terribly matter of fact, but not really keen to talk about it. Mm. And she told your father [00:55:30] and they had I now know, I suppose I suspected at the time they had an interview with Basil James, Uh, because there's a reference that in his in his notes but no details of what they discussed. And that was prior to the first session. No, it would have been after the first session, I think. Or during it. Even, I think. Probably, uh, during it. Do you know what your father's reaction was? Uh, the only time I've had any conversation with Dad about [00:56:00] it at all. Um, he really talked about the law. Uh, not necessarily that it was right or wrong, but about the importance of law as a regulating device in society, Uh, that laws were there for good reason. That whether or not. We agreed with them. We were bound as citizens to bye bye. Um, and that figured with the sort of approach [00:56:30] you took to life generally, Um, you know, and I think in that conversation we even talked about the, you know, the origins of Roman law and that sort of thing. But it was It was that was That was the That was the aspect you took. Hm. That's interesting. And that's really the only explicit conversation. Can you recall prior to the treatment after talking to Doctor Doctor James between talking to him and then going in for the first session. How you felt? [00:57:00] What? What? What was going through Your head? Um, apprehensive about it, but pretty distracted by the holiday job I had by then and waiting for university results. And that and that sort of thing. I don't remember being terribly keyed up about it. Other than the issue of needing to tell Mum. Did Dr James give you any warnings beforehand as to, you know, could could things possibly go wrong? No. [00:57:30] No. I don't remember any discussion of the actual trap. All of the risks involved that may be reprehensible on his part because I now know that I think the case was South Africa. But the one in Britain as well of people who have actually died of the OM morphine, I mean, came in under treatment have died of the of the of a reaction to the drug. But no, I didn't believe there was any [00:58:00] any physical risk in that scene. And did you have to sign some kind of waiver that would Look, I don't remember that. I mean, that seems extraordinary, because now, of course, you know, as a privacy officer, I have to get people to sign waivers for everything, But no, I don't I don't remember that either. I don't know whether I mentioned it. Well, there was a second session which you're aware of, which you might want to explore, but also that I had a a final outpatients, uh, session with electric shock. Not convulsive [00:58:30] shock, but just electricity instead of instead of nausea inducing drugs, we'll come to that. So, prior to the first session, you were asked to to come up with some images and some stories. What? What? Can you give me some examples of what? What you kind of came up with, um I can't remember what you see made of [00:59:00] the images, because I don't remember them being part of it. But, you know, it seems extraordinary, really. But in those days, there really wasn't a lot of gay pornography around. But there were, um, athletic magazines, and there was one in particular called man's world, which I now know was produced solely for the gay market. And in those days, [00:59:30] they were kept with the sports and the health magazines. And they were small booklets, uh, of black and white photos of men of all ages, but mostly bodybuilder types in in quite provocative poses. Um, so I had a few of those. I gave him one of those, and in terms of anecdotes, I talk about the sort of men that attracted [01:00:00] me or the sort of things out on the beat that excited me, which were not quite the same thing, because there was there was an element of, uh, of excitement in the hunt, you know, regardless of what the prey was sort of thing, you know, it was a wee just a wee frizz on of of excitement from, you know of of the danger. And I did think police danger. I didn't think nowadays, of course, I think the danger [01:00:30] of being bashed up getting it wrong and being but, uh, you know, you would one was so circumspect that, uh, there was very little danger of getting it wrong. What was his reaction to that material? Not quite neutral. No, he was very professional at that. He was a cool, cool customer. And, uh, yeah, I won't jump ahead to the second session because there's a sort of parallel there. So can you tell me what it was like [01:01:00] being admitted to a public hospital Psychiatric ward? Uh, not mice, basically, Uh, and one of the, uh, one of the consequent reactions. Short lived, but nevertheless, both within family, they're more extended members of family and certainly among some families in the district. Uh, not that they didn't know why I'd been in there, but they knew [01:01:30] that I'd been in Cohoon so that people I had babysat for no longer wanted me as a babysitter. That's that's the sort of thing. And and even even family members just that sense of you know what's wrong with him? He's been in Cohoon. What's that all about? Uh, [01:02:00] I wonder is, is he OK? Thoughtful for me, is he? You know, is he safe? Is he going to take an axe and attack us? Or when I'm inventing all that, But but just a A reserve a a reserve? Uh, not because I was gay or because they knew that, but simply that I had been in. How did the medical staff treat you? The the only the only [01:02:30] doctor I saw was Basil James. But the orderlies who who administered the drug, uh, again, they they were neutral, But, uh, I was embarrassed because one, and and one of my notes from way back then suggests that there were two. But I certainly remember one of the orderlies was someone I'd been at school with. He was in med school. Now, you know, because here we are. We're in at the end of my second year at Varsity. Uh, he was in med school, and he was, [01:03:00] you know, doing work as as an orderly. And, um, I didn't care for that. There were no consequences that I I never heard that he had mentioned anywhere that he'd met me or why I was there or anything like that. But I didn't like it. And for them, this would have been the first time they had tried this treatment. I hope it was the only time. But I can't guarantee that I actually ought to put a official information request about that. I might [01:03:30] one day, but no, no, quite Yes, it would be. So can you take me through, um, after being admitted, you Where were you shown? Where did you go? Where were you taken? Pretty much straight to. To the room that I've described. Um, yeah. How big was that room? Yeah, pretty small enough room for a bed. Yeah, I suppose it was a bedside cabinet. I recall it as you know, um, a standard [01:04:00] old fashioned hospital window with a bit of wall on each side. Are we saying 2. 5 metres by four or something like that. And it was blacked out. Yeah. No, no. Blacked out. No decoration. I'm inclined to say unshaded light bulb, but I can't actually remember that. But that was the general. That was the general impression. It was a cell. [01:04:30] And were you able to leave that room. I didn't. Did you know that going into that room that you wouldn't be able to leave for so many days? I think I knew that I was submitting myself to whatever came. Um, So you were there in the room? What? What happens next? They come in and say we're ready for the first treatment. They give me the shot of whiskey, the tumble of whiskey. They I roll over. They inject morphine into my backside, [01:05:00] they turn the tape recorder on. Did they say what the injection would do? I knew it was going to induce nausea. I didn't know what or how or how bad the nausea would be. But I I knew it. What is? Basil James had explained what? What? The modification involved. Yeah, Yeah, it's just that, you know, thinking about it In theory, like, you know, the [01:05:30] threat gets an electric shock every time it goes to the wrong feeder. Um, you know, it's all a bit sort of clinical, but scientific. That was what attracted me to it. Or that's what because I've never heard of it before. And this was something you could sort of see. The logic of it. God help me, but you can see the logic of it. Uh, you know? And so then, yes. And And as I say after the first one you've thrown up in the bowl, they took the bowl away. But you know, you you had no change [01:06:00] of pyjamas or sheets or anything like that. You were just just there in this room for as long as it took the tape. Was that Basil? That was Basil's voice. And Basil was describing you all fantasies. No. How was that to listen to? Well, slightly embarrassing in front of an orderly. But I mean, II. I was playing fair with the whole thing. [01:06:30] I mean, I'd given the anecdotes to Basil, so I couldn't really complain about Basil reading them back to me. So the did the orderly stay in the room with you? Yeah. I, uh I don't know whether that was part of the deal or whether, particularly after that first one, when my blood pressure had dropped, where they felt that there needed to be someone there, and they they take away the the the base on them. So do you think it it worked? I mean, was was the intention that [01:07:00] you would get aroused. And then that's part of what's so completely and utterly pathetic about it. As I've said once or twice since, to you had to be. Theoretically, you had to be thoroughly aroused to be completely turned off. You don't get aroused in those circumstances. I mean, I could honestly say, although I listened to took in the anecdotes that [01:07:30] I had relayed and were now being relayed to me um, I, I mean, it was just a non sexual situation. One thinks a good sex one doesn't think of a middle aged orderly in a in a foul smelling room with no light and your bum full of apomorphine. It was just but looking backwards was just pathetic. Barbaric, pathetic, illogical. So what? What would [01:08:00] the time difference be between actually the start of the tape happening and you throwing up? How long would that take? 23 minutes at most. Yeah, So the drug acted quite fast and the tape wasn't terribly long, and it went quite quickly from, you know, isn't this exciting to you are feeling sick. And then, of course, it was no surprise she was feeling sick she had done full of nausea inducing drug. Was [01:08:30] there any wording on the tape to, um, make you feel bad? Like, homosexuality is bad. Or or what kind of words would it be? Yeah, that would be That would be the approach. Yeah, this is This is this is disgusting behaviour. You are feeling sick. You are sickened by this disgusting behaviour. I. I mean, I can't, but that [01:09:00] that was that was the That was the thing. Yeah, you are. Yes. That's the fairest way of summarising it. You are sickened by this disgusting behaviour. You are feeling sick. You are really, really sick. This behaviour makes you sick on and on. And so you would throw up after a couple of minutes And then what would happen? Uh, they'd go away and you waited for an hour, and then you got a tumble of glucose and lime. And then an hour [01:09:30] after that, they had another session. Was there anything in the room that, like I mean, with the books that you could read? No, absolutely no external stimulation. Uh, you're in your head. And what was going on in your head? Uh, a a pretty strong reaction to begin with. And as I say after After what I I now gather was a few days [01:10:00] I. I thought, This is This is just bloody ridiculous. Uh, enough is enough. Um, I'm not gonna have another one of these. I'm a voluntary patient. I'm not going to have another one of these. I insist on seeing Basil James. How many treatments a day would you get? Well, I think it was every two hours. So, So 12 in a day. It might have been slightly less than that, but I don't think it was. That's why I can't really believe I was there nine days. I suppose the nine days [01:10:30] would include the post therapy day or two of recovery. I don't know. I'm surprised at that. So it went all day and all night. Yeah. So could tell. No watch, no light? No, no. No sense of whether it was day or night outside. Was it the same orderlies, or were there different orderlies? They must have been on shifts. There were some some who were there more than once, but, uh, different orderlies, [01:11:00] but all male and mostly older men Did they converse with you? at all? No, Just very, um, professional was reserved. Neutral? Yeah. They must have been pretty heavily briefed. Uh, I mean, obviously, I was supposed to be in isolation, and I was not supposed to be sympathise [01:11:30] with or supported. Basically, was there anything in the room that allowed people outside the room to observe your behaviour? No. No. Open and closed door door shut. And no, if there was a window to the corridor and there may have been but it was, well, curtained out. Well, blacked out. I wasn't aware of people coming and going outside at all. And was anybody actually checking up on you [01:12:00] and saying, You know, how are you feeling? What are your thoughts? Not to answer to Basil Jane. Do you think that was part of it where they would basically do it? Until you actually throw up your hands and said I'm not doing anything. I think that's I haven't I haven't read other people's experiences, whereas they haven't until very recently, and they're only in a comic context. But I I happened [01:12:30] upon quite recently. Um uh, a wee novel by Tom Sharp, South African writer, uh, called indecent exposure and in the in the South African police. They became aware that a lot of the white policemen were in fact fraternising with black women. And for the authorities, this was an absolute night. It was also a crime. So they decided that they were going to deal with this [01:13:00] and they decided to deal with it by a vision therapy. And so they wholesale this treatment. So the novel says and and it's born out to some extent because some of the some of the more recent research stuff is from South Africa over that time that that that that first session of of aversion therapy did you were you able to, um, have a shower or no? And [01:13:30] you were saying that you had to toilet within the room itself? Must have because I didn't leave the room, I oddly enough, I certainly know I had no shower and that I was becoming increasingly smelly and sticky. Um, but, um, I must have been under a under a fair bit of mounting pressure, to be honest, because we've talked a little bit about religion and may come back to it, But, uh, somewhere along that line, well into it and possibly critical to my [01:14:00] calling for Basil James. I had a sense of, quite explicitly Jesus Christ being present with me. Nothing more than presence and comfort from that presence. You know, I don't actually believe in that sort of event, you see, So I'm sort of telling it at my own, uh, my own expense, but that was quite strong. Now, I mean, I'm inclined to think, you know, if you haven't been with [01:14:30] food or proper nourishment for several days, it's no wonder you start hallucinating. I mean, it's pretty pretty normal, but it was interesting that it took that form. Uh, in my time, you were asking what was going on in my head. Well, I must have been getting increasingly stressed and affected by the whole process. And then I had that experience, and I think I think that sense [01:15:00] I think that sense that, you know, I was being supported by other was part of my determination to call to say enough is enough. I don't remember Jesus Christ saying, It's all all right, Ralph, I love you, but I think that's what I felt which was consistent with what I've said before. I've never. Actually, I've never actually felt designed by God, you know? So So [01:15:30] what was the point of the whiskey? Um I. I don't know. I think you had to have something to throw up on. And if you weren't being fed, you had to have something in your system. Whether it was a carryover from his, uh, from his from other use of the treatment for alcoholics, I just don't know. But, I mean, I can joke about it now, but, I mean, [01:16:00] I wouldn't touch a glass of whiskey to this day. And in the first few years after this, there used to be a coloured magazine that often had a Johnny Walker advert on the back cover full colour advert on the back cover and a tumbler of whiskey. And it would make me feel queasy. So I didn't do anything to my sexuality, but it sure put me off whiskey, huh? [01:16:30] But so I don't know what that was about, but I think that II I can only think that it was a carryover from, you know, that with an alcoholic, they were actually giving him something that he was supposed to be made sick by uh, and they certainly had to give me some things. So that's what it was. The tape message. Did that change over the time? It was the same same. Yeah. I, uh I don't think it was even modified. I don't think there was even two versions of it. I think it was just [01:17:00] which again is a bit pathetic, isn't it? You know, I mean, you've been made sick by one anecdote. And what kind of tone of voice did he use on the tape are quite neutral. Uh, although, Oh, no, you're quite neutral in describing the whatever the anecdote was. Uh, but then you know you then a bit more dramatic. You know, you are feeling sick. You are feeling very sick. You are going to be sick. It would be fair. [01:17:30] I imagine it must have been quite intense for the orderlies as well. I mean, if they were in the room with you. Yeah, I quite like. And so they they knew why I was there because they were listening to these tapes, including my old school mates. But anyway Oh, well, I quite fancy one of the one of the group of school mates But anyway, that's beside the point. So you finally got kind of fed up with the treatment and you called for for Doctor James. [01:18:00] How quickly did he arrive? Uh, before the next session, what was What was the the discussion about just saying that, you know, that I wasn't prepared to put up with this, uh, that I that I thought it was a dreadful treatment, Uh, that it was a dreadful process, not blaming him, But it was a dreadful process and that, uh uh, and that, uh, I wasn't [01:18:30] prepared to continue with it. And then he began this. You know? What about what will your parents think? You know, don't you fairly have an obligation to them and to the church authorities to to continue with this treatment? Don't you realise that? You know it will make your life better, and you know that it's that's behaviour that needs needs to change and so on. All right. What was going through your head? [01:19:00] Um, well, really respect from mum and Dad more than more than, uh, he may have told me at that point that he had spoken to them. Um, I was more more focused on them than I was on on the church authorities. I may by then have begun to realise that in fact, I wasn't going to make it into the Anglican priesthood. Although I continued a bit after [01:19:30] that. Um, really? Just, you know, I made a commitment to seeing this through, and now he laid the guilts on me with over mom and Dad in particular. Uh, and that really? Oh, well, you know, I owed it to them, if not to myself, at that stage. Had you any kind of concept of time? How many days you'd been there? No, [01:20:00] I knew. I mean, I didn't call him until I. I mean, I was fed up. Uh, so I knew that there had been a lot of sessions, and so you agreed to continue. I did. And he left. Well, he must. I think he signalled there and then that that you know that that was it. And then, you know, within a very short space of time, I was whisked [01:20:30] out to the to the showers and given a meal, and the curtains were hung and the flowers were put on the bedside table. And mom and Dad and my friends were able to visit, but, uh, and I can't remember how long after that I don't think I was in much longer than that on that session. And just to clarify that during [01:21:00] the time of the treatment, did you actually have any food? Not that I recall. No, just the glucose and Lyme. I mean, I was being given, um that was for very basic sustenance. And the whiskey goes, but I lost the whiskey. So did many people come and visit you? No, I don't really remember. Uh, see, by then it was already university holidays, and most of my friends by then were university friends, and they [01:21:30] had all left town. That was a bit of a problem, which we might come on to. Um And what about your parents? Did they and how were they? OK, you know, we talked about the weather and what the cat was doing and what the latest news from my older sister was. And family life continued. There was certainly no discussion of of what had been happening or why [01:22:00] it was happening. But that was typical of my family. Really. Not that they're particularly prudish or uptight, but we just did not talk about sex. So was there some kind of debriefing after the treatment? Not that I recall. So literally. You just went home, Went home. Does that strike you as old again? [01:22:30] You see, we we We're right in the period when New Zealand closes down. Uh, I think to be fair, there was probably a an appointment made for early in the new year for me to see Basil James again then. But I don't recall any debriefing. Oh, perhaps I should say that that the whole experience was a wee bit numbing. Yeah, [01:23:00] and I think I have closed down. I have excluded from my memory some aspects of it. And I also think that in some ways, it it had a bit of an effect on my recall to that date. Yeah, I just feel well, I'm vague about some aspects of my earlier life and say Max is about his. Really? Um [01:23:30] it may just be difference in the way one's mind operates, but I do feel that this this is a wee bit of a blur at that point. So did battle. James. Tell you what you may expect after the treatment? No, not that I recall. Mhm. And what happened after the treatment? I mean, how how did you know it was successful [01:24:00] or not? But I knew it wasn't successful. I mean, I wasn't in terms of in terms of my sexual responses, I certainly there was no change, uh, that I was aware of. And, um, sometime early in the new year, perhaps the first week of the new year. You know, here I am in Dunedin. I think Mum and Dad have gone away for a brief holiday, and, uh, all my friends are gone. [01:24:30] Um, I was bored. I was lonely, and I was fed up, and so I went cruising, and I didn't. Normally, I didn't normally take much interest in the wolves, but I can't remember. But anyway, I I met a really, really lovely guy who was a steward on a coastal trader. And I spent the night with him. He said, you know, no one in town, mum and Dad, not there. I didn't normally spend the night with people, spent the night with him [01:25:00] on on the trip, and it was just lovely. Um, I've joked about it in in the past, but, you know, the whole thing was sort of sort of gold and aura to it. Now, in fact, you know, that was really just the light from a wee bedside radio, but, you know, the whole the whole thing. He was a nice guy. He was sexually attractive to me. Um, we hit it off. Um, and I just thought I'm back to normal. [01:25:30] This is This is me. This is the way I am and it's OK. However, that's not the end of the story. How much time had elapsed from that night to to actually with when the first treatment ended? Uh, I'd say most of I'd say most of December, a month or six weeks, perhaps. And in that time, had you had any kind of sexual thoughts or, I mean, not sexual. Yeah, and there was a masturbation. [01:26:00] I mean, it hadn't made any difference whatsoever. So what were your thoughts on the treatment then? Waste of time. But I made a commitment to trying it sound odd, but that really was the driver. I hadn't felt driven to the treatment in the first place. But having made the commitment to it. I mean, noses [01:26:30] are stickers, and, um, you know, And have you had any communication with the priest who who had advised you to I I must have over that Christmas period and he wrote, I mean, I, uh, there would have been a general, you know, I hope you're OK. And yes, thank you, father, but nothing more than that. And it was slightly and it was slightly complicated. The the theological student with whom I'd been, you know, sort of almost [01:27:00] up to or close to when I went for treatment for the therapy. Um, I mean, we we communicated, but we stayed well away from the recent past. Or at that point, we stayed well away from the recent past or what I'd just been through. Did he undertake any kind of treatment? Had no need to really I. I was, uh [01:27:30] I pushed him into a relationship that he was quite happy with for the few months that it lasted. But, I mean, I think I don't really think that was him. So what was your next meeting with with James? Uh, well, it would have been I I'd suggest in in sort of mid January or something like that. And, uh, this is 1965 1965 [01:28:00] possibly late January. And I told him what had happened in the meantime, both that I didn't detect any change in my sexual interests and that I had had a sexual experience. Um, he, um he was always cool and neutral, but he was It was pretty clear to me that he didn't think this was at all a good thing. And he said that he really thought [01:28:30] it was important for us to seize the moment, uh, to build on the first treatment. Uh, and I committed myself to seeing it through, uh, so I agreed to return and not prompted by me, but certainly part of his pattern. Um, the the second session was first session had been very much reorientation. [01:29:00] Suppress homosexual reaction, de orientation, suppress homosexual reaction. The second session had a bit more focus on reorientation. Suppress the undesirable, encourage the desirable. You know what? It what illustrated that he produced some girlie magazines. The parallel really of gay ones. [01:29:30] The homosexual ones I'd given him. I mean again, pre playboy. So black and white and a bit granny. But nevertheless quite explicit porn. And he had a tape which was encouraging heterosexual encouraging an interest in women. Uh, and so this is after the second session. I've got these girlie magazines, an encouraging tape and a hormone shot, [01:30:00] and I don't know what it was or what it was intended to do, but I think it was sort of intended to stimulate sexual interest, which they trusted me to focus on the girlie magazine and the encouraging tape. So that was a bit more of an effort. So instead of just leave and attempting to leave me neutral, they really did put more effort into, uh, refocusing. And [01:30:30] that second treatment was that in the same room, far as I recall, Certainly the same ward. And they were doing the same routine of a blacked out room. No other stimulus, something. It was all but I've been here before, But still, were they making you feel better by were were they giving you food? Were they so it was exactly the same routine. Every as far as I recall. It was a complete repeat, [01:31:00] except for after after the decision and and I don't actually remember what brought that lot to a close. Um, yeah. I think Basil simply indicated that, you know, he had scheduled a number of of sessions and that we had now completed those and that we would now look at encouraging. And the only the only treatment after that was an outpatient session with electrodes on my hand. [01:31:30] Um, which was the same same sort of thing, except that it was you know, you didn't It wasn't particularly disgusting. Um, attached electrodes to your hand. I had to. I had to encourage I had to think of, uh, a a homosexual stimulating experience. And then signal and Basil Jane would close the circuit and I'd get a job. And [01:32:00] I have to say that after that's happened several times, you know, perhaps half a dozen times. Image, hand up, jolt, image, hand up, jolt, image, hand up. No jolt. But the image disappears from your mind in anticipation of having another shock. Yes, I wasn't prepared to say at the time, but I thought that it might have had more effect than the nausea. Uh, [01:32:30] but of course. I mean, the whole thing is just so pathetic, because how does he? How does he know. I mean, I here I am, sitting in an outpatients room with a with a doctor. I mean, what sort of stimulating thoughts am I going to? But, I mean, I could have been thinking of seagulls. I might have been being put off seagulls for all he knew. I mean, it's silly, isn't it? You see the logic of the theory, but but all the loopholes in the way it was applied. And, [01:33:00] you know, human beings are just more complex than that. You can stop a rat eating from the wrong feeder. But human beings, especially in their sexual element, are far more complex than that. Just ridiculous. That second session, How long did that aversion therapy go for? I don't know. I can't recall several days. And the notes are The notes are unclear. II. I really wanted to get that all sorted out of my mind. [01:33:30] But the the hospital notes are unclear. And do you know how it ended? Was Was it again one of those things where you put up your hand? No, it wasn't. No, I think I think there was, I think because they had something in their minds to follow it up with that. They had determined he had determined a a set number of sessions. That's that's my recall of it. Was there anything different from the second session of therapy [01:34:00] to the first session? No, Only the follow up, No follow up after the first this heterosexual encouragement following the second Was there any talk before you were discharged about You know how you might be feeling. And I just, you know, take this material with you and we do encourage you to, you know, to do everything you can to resist temptation and and and develop this this new interest. Not that I'd ever confessed to a new interest, but [01:34:30] anyway and so how did that kind of pan out? No, no, No different from the previous time. And you see, not long after that. So we're now talking the beginning of 1965 1963 and 64. I was living at home 1965 1966. I was at college as a boarder where the theological student was also a resident and we were OK. We were back here and we knew [01:35:00] that there was no go area and one every night we gather around about nine o'clock for supper in one room or another, and one night another guy with whom I was quite friendly said, Oh, you know, it's just because it was right at the beginning of term beginning of March, um said, Um oh, I've had a really troubling holiday period. A really close friend from Timaru has told me that he's homosexual and I just [01:35:30] don't know what to make it or what to do about it. So Ken and I looked at each other and I sort of said, OK, he said, OK, and I said, Well, John, I am homosexual, too. Um, do you think? And the conversation developed and it was, Did I? Did he think there was anything I could do to help his friend? So it was arranged that I would meet this friend, Uh, and I did. Yeah, we lived for the next [01:36:00] together for the next 30 years. Well, not not quite. I mean, we caught it, Uh, and then when his mother died, we moved into a flat together and lived from 1968 till he died in 1995. So, um, now, David, this guy who became my partner. He had also been in Basil James's care. Uh, because he really was troubled by his homosexuality. And [01:36:30] Basil James certainly hadn't suggested any sort of reorientation or anything to him. Um, but Basil James had indicated to David that to continue a homosexual life would almost certainly mean suicide, social or actual suicide. But, you know, after meeting David, did you have any correspondence with Basil James about? [01:37:00] I did and And how did that turn out? I. I wrote to him basically, Oh, he'd written to me to say that there was a 50 year medical student who was doing research in the area of homosexuality, not aversion therapy, but homosexuality. And would I be prepared to talk to him? Uh, and I did, uh, and I I'd completely forgotten his name. But there's a reference to there's a reference to him in Basil James' correspondence, which [01:37:30] I've since got from the hospital board, and I've come across a reference to his research in another book, Uh, where it refers to to me, not by name, but, uh, but it it it's absolutely me. And and I checked that this indeed was the student I spoke to. So that was that I wrote what was probably a a pompous 21 year old's letter to Basil James. Sort of asking him why he thought it had failed. And, uh, why? I thought it had failed. [01:38:00] And and there were two or three things I I tackled him on. And what did I, uh, And what did you suggest I could do to make life better for gay people? And he responded to that. He said that he thought I wasn't, you know, really terribly strong and motivated to the treatment, which I'd have to agree. And he basically said that he thought there was a note of grandiosity in my last suggestion. Uh, and that really, uh, you know, [01:38:30] the situation might get better. Um, but that he didn't advise me to be involved in any anything and, uh, that really, uh, I would need to proceed with the utmost discretion. Sorry. Did that happen pre the outpatient experience a year or so later? OK, so can we go back to the outpatient experience? So what was the time difference between the end of the second session of aversion therapy [01:39:00] and you as an outpatient week or two and did. Did Basil just want you to come in as an outpatient to see how it all went? Yep. And that was never repeated. So I don't know whether he just I presume you decided that was a lost cause. So I mean, can we Can you go through that that outpatient experience, the the idea of going back and and seeing how it was going, was that something before you checked out at the second session? Did [01:39:30] he say Come back in a week's time? And I think there was always that understanding that there would be a uh, not not not an emergency type session, but simply that you know, that he that we hadn't We were committed to checking and checking out how things were going. And at that point, I don't think I had any, you know, further escapades to report to him. I don't recall that. It was just that, you know, here's a top up. Um, you know, different, different medium, Uh, and just to [01:40:00] sort of reinforce them. And can you describe for me how that, um, electric shock treatment worked? Like what? What kind of room? You were just his office. Was this a public hospital or, uh, I have It must have been if he had that gear with me, he wouldn't have had that at student health. Yes, he must have had an office within the hospital around. And what kind of gear? What was it? Well, it was just a small generator and a couple of load loads and loads [01:40:30] and a the button to push Nothing terribly elaborate. Did the generator make a noise? No. Think it was probably connected to to low power battery or something of that sort. And the shock was only about Did you ever do science experience experience with those? You know, one of the things in high school science back in those days was to generate electricity and hold hands, and the shot ran down. [01:41:00] The whole lot of you all that sort of thing. It was It was about that level. It was a jolt. Um, but you know, no sense a jolt and unpleasant, but not, you know, not significant, really. And with a jolt, you know, it's it's gone over. But of course, that's what happened with the image in your mind, too. Go on if you're If you're dreaming about having sex with someone and you get a shock on the hand, you don't go on dreaming. So do you think [01:41:30] the idea was always to have those two different types of therapy? The the electric shock had never been discussed in terms in the initial conversations, and he was always quite saying, This is what I'm gonna do And this is how we are. This is how we do it. And this is what your part of the process is like, you know, they mentioned and so forth, all quite neutrally explained. Can you describe [01:42:00] some of the images and how they were? Were they projected, or were they? That's what was so silly, as I say, I could have been thinking of seagulls. So what would he say? What would he say to you? Think of erotic, yes, think of enough and and signal me when you've when you've conjured up something of interest to you. So presumably at that point, he accepted that the second session, [01:42:30] even though it ended up with focus on he heterosexual behaviour hadn't really had much effect, and we didn't go into a lot of that. But, uh, I mean, here he was continuing to that will reinforce the de orientation and does have admitted, you know, perhaps if it had gone on, it might have had some more profound effect than the nausea sessions had. Did he give you any instruction [01:43:00] in terms of the images you should have in your head? No. Just they needed to be homosexual and attractive. And did you find it easy or hard to conjure up the images? Well, look, honestly, I mean not had not had to conjure up the image, but no sense of Of arousal, really? I mean, for God's sake, I'm in. I'm in a doctor's office. I mean, I played fair I I think of, you know, some director of man, [01:43:30] or it usually just usually just an image like that. Really not. Not necessarily doing anything but I. I played fair. I would I would I would think of a country up, an image of someone I felt attracted to and signal and Boom. And when B happened, when? When? When he shocked you. Can you describe that? Yeah, just like that. You know, he'd close the circuit. The shock [01:44:00] would come and the image would go bang, bang, and then you and then, you know, there'd be a rest of a minute or something, uh, during which I was expected to, you know, start the process again and up. And then I eventually signal and close. And as I say after, I don't know, half a dozen of those. He didn't close the circuit, but an expectation they have in my mind, the image disappeared. Was the shock enough [01:44:30] to make you kind of verbalise or I mean, was it a big shock? No, it was it was strong enough to be unpleasant, but, you know, not even no, I wouldn't Even I wouldn't even yell out or anything. I mean, not if, you know, shut just and the electrodes, they were placed on your hand. I remember. I'm sure there were two. [01:45:00] Don't know why they'd be, too, but, you know, just take the tape to your hand. And why did he stop? Why was there? You know, he said I'm going to do this 10 times, and then, you know, by then it was, uh we were very much in his office hours, and I think you know, I was there for the a lot of 40 minutes or whatever, do 50 minutes and then 10 minutes off or whatever. And that was it. And I never went back, but I wasn't. [01:45:30] He wrote to me about the medical student, and I wrote to him about you know, what I should do in life. So after that third treatment, what were your thoughts on on the two types of treatment I my notes made at the time? I've said to myself, perhaps electric shock would have been more effective in the long [01:46:00] run than the nausea treatment. But I mean, I mean, all I can say is, thank God I didn't follow that up, because I mean, all it was, all it was going to do was leave me, frankly, sexually neutral or to the point where I was so screwed up that I couldn't function sexually without fear and punishment and that, you know, that had never been part of my approach [01:46:30] to exercising my sexuality. I didn't think God was going to punish me. And although I thought the law might, I didn't you know, uh, I'm so glad that that it didn't work out because really, to be to be left, sort of sexually neutral would be pretty grim, I think so. What do you think the lasting effects of aversion therapy have been on you. [01:47:00] Um, I've already said that I wonder whether that whole that whole period has been part of, um, blurring some memories. Don't know really, whether that's so, um the the suspicion of someone who'd been in cohoon lasted for a while, uh, but was never a major issue. And I soon left Dunedin. Anyway, um, [01:47:30] I still won't have a glass of whiskey, and but the lasting effect is I gave it a go. That's what society and the church asked of me. I tried. It hasn't worked. It was never likely to work. I am quite sure that my sexual orientation is inbuilt. Whether it was pre birth or in early relationships. I haven't chosen this. Uh, it's me. [01:48:00] It's the way I am. Get on with it. And I felt that I was I was cleared to get on with it by having given it a go, and I suppose, in one or two situations since not in personal ones, but perhaps during law reform, the fact that I was able to say now looked society. This is what you asked me [01:48:30] to to do to change. I gave it my best shot. It didn't work. I am sure that it wouldn't work for me or for anyone else. Now can we move on to another subject? Yeah. So quite profound. In A in a way, I mean, other people got on and found partners and lived with them without that. But, uh, but Given, given the church background, the family background, [01:49:00] the the feeling that they'd expected this of me, I'd risen to the occasion. It hadn't worked. And now, time to live life as a gay man and do it as decently as you could. It's interesting because as we've been talking, you have been referring back to notes that you've obtained from the hospital and research that you've downloaded from the Internet. So you've obviously still [01:49:30] kept an active interest in or or or trying to discover more about what happened back then. Yeah, Yes, that's yes. That's certainly so. That's partly because, to the best of my knowledge, and I joked about an official information request, but, uh, to to my knowledge, uh, I haven't heard of anyone else in New Zealand. Um, having undergone that particular therapy, uh, I know lots of gay people who have been in therapies of one sort or another, [01:50:00] but I haven't heard of anyone else on that. And it's only that I've tuned into it use overseas, that is, has really encouraged me to sort of keep up a sort of academic interest still being used for alcoholism and gambling. I don't know what else paedophilia. I think they might be, uh, the only other possibility that we talked about, you know, group therapy and psychotherapy and so forth. And I mean, some advocates also talk about chemical castration. Do you think your [01:50:30] research over the over the years has changed your view on what you went through? No. Only, uh, a certain resentment of Basil Jones because he had written he'd written the piece in the medical journal from 1962 is really a brag about what a wonderful thing this is. And, of course, most of the research I've read since [01:51:00] is all What a waste of time. I think I think I've read somewhere that the failure rate I don't have many cases but the failure rate was something like 99%. I forgot which is exactly what I would expect. And I'm even, you know, surprised that there was a single person who, um, who was perhaps different motivation and different heterosexual experience might actually have been able to shift enough. Um, [01:51:30] yeah. So I. I resent Basil James a bit. Really? But when people say well, you know, was it voluntary? Well, yes, it was. I said it was explained to me fairly and squarely, and I said, I'll give it a go. So what ever happened to Basil James? I think last time I tuned in, he was some very senior health authority in [01:52:00] Queensland. I think he went on to I think he went on to be, um, director of mental health in New Zealand. And then last time I saw so he'd be getting on now because he was significantly older than me. So he'd he'd he'd be in his eighties Now, I think. And what are your thoughts now on the church asking you to undertake something like this? [01:52:30] I Well, it was reasonable II. I mean, I don't think the church asked me to do the aversion therapy. The church asked me to address the problem. Can I make that distinction the particular way in which I ended up addressing? It was I mean, I don't think the bishop, for example, would have the slightest idea that it even had a vision therapy. The parish priest certainly did. I mean, he knew all about it, and and And he was a supporting with. But, I mean, all he was asking in the beginning was for [01:53:00] me to talk to the student health psychiatrist about the issue. Um, and I happened to strike Basil James, who had a bee in his bonnet about aversion therapy. Do you have any final reflections on on on the therapy? And and you're you're going through it. I only that, uh, you know, I thought it was mediaeval. I thought it was barbaric. I thought it was scientifically suspect. No. Sorry. [01:53:30] I now think it was all those things scientifically suspect. Uh, inexcusable. Uh, a major breach of of human rights and medical ethics. Uh, and I would certainly never undergo it again. And I would be absolutely appalled and quite vocal if I ever learned that a younger person was being encouraged to undertake the same therapy.

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TITLE: Ralph Knowles - early years of HIV AIDS in Christchurch
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ralph Knowles
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; AIDS Support Network; Christchurch; Garry Cantwell; Gay Liberation Front; Gay Liberation Front Christchurch; HIV / AIDS; Homosexual Law Reform Society; Hugh Gaw; National Gay Rights Coalition; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Ralph Knowles; Ramada Inn; beats; cruising; gay; health; transcript online
DATE: 30 December 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Christchurch, Christchurch, Canterbury
CONTEXT: In this podcast Ralph Knowles talks about the early years of HIV/AIDS in Christchurch, and how he helped produce the first pamphlet about the virus in New Zealand. Ralph died on 3 July 2019.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: My name's Ralph Knowles. I came back to Christchurch in 1973 Um, in Wellington. I'd been involved in the Homosexual Law Reform Society, and, uh, I continued to be their contact person in Christchurch. Uh, but soon after arriving in Christchurch, I became involved with the new gay Liberation Front, which was an active group of very different sort of people. And [00:00:30] through them, and just through settling into living in Christchurch, I became are pretty aware of the of the gay scene in Christchurch. We were by then using the word gay. Uh, and, uh, um became politically active with them through them in the seventies in Christchurch, the gay scene. What was what was going on? Well, from from my point of view, there was a lot of activity out on the beaches and the beach, Uh, [00:01:00] cruising areas. There was by then a sauna, uh, very similar to the ones you find in other big metropolitan cities. Um, and there was a lot of community work. There was. There were There were some pubs that, uh, were known for short periods to be places where gay people would meet. Um, what tended to happen was we, um we tended to become unwelcome, and we'd move on to somewhere else. That was the [00:01:30] Ramada Inn in particular. Um, there were also, um there's also a community centre, uh, run on a voluntary basis called the Lambda Centre. That was a good place for people to socialise. And particularly for people who were uneasy about coming into the gay scene. It was a a friendly place. Uh uh. To make an entree. Uh, and there were big gay university [00:02:00] student dancers, that sort of thing. In terms of of sexual activity. I guess it was mainly the apart from people who were in, you know, relationships and living together. Uh, there were there was a lot of cruising going on, uh, at a number of of sites, some of which were famous, and some were infamous. Um, and, uh, a gradual feeling that things were becoming less pressured. But that feeling [00:02:30] wasn't necessarily mirrored by the attitude of the authorities, such as the police. And one or two of us got into trouble with the police in one way or another, uh, in through to the late 19 seventies. Can you give me some examples of, uh, some of the beats or some of the locations in Christchurch that were being used. The Christchurch Railway station, now wrecked by the, uh, by the earthquakes, uh was, uh, a very popular spot. [00:03:00] Um, Hagley Park was famous and had been for many, many decades. Uh, beach out north Brighton, uh, was was popular, particularly in summer. And there were other parks around the city, smallish parks, but that had public conveniences in them. And I'm thinking Beverley Park in Richmond, Saint Albans Park in Saint Albans and [00:03:30] so on. But I would say, Oh, in Manchester Street, there was a big, uh, there was a car parking building in Manchester Street. Uh, and there was a, um, public convenience on the ground floor of that. That was very busy. When you say very busy. What? What kind of numbers are we talking? Pretty time. Any time of day or night, you could pop in there and there'd be someone looking for sex, and you might have to You might have to hang around for a while and risk getting arrested, [00:04:00] but you might have to hang around for a while, but but but there'd be someone drifting by I. I met some, uh, a wide range of people there. I never forget 11 guy. I couldn't believe it. Um, because his car was parked immediately outside the the low end, and it had a baby seat, you know, in the in the back area of it. I mean, I know plenty of married people or a married partner now has has been married, but, uh, it just seemed [00:04:30] I sort of thought, Oh, dear, what is happening in that man's life? He's a nice guy, too. And I was gonna say we exchanged fluids for what? A better way of putting it. But, uh, and then we went out quite chatty, and he gets into this car with all the paraphernalia of a family man. I'm not. I'm just expressing surprise. No judgement involved. How would you describe the sexual climate of the time in Christchurch [00:05:00] in the late seventies? Uh, there's still the the of being involved in risky activity. Um, and of course, if you if your sexual encounters are largely in public spaces, even if it's, you know, a bushy park, and it's, you know, 11 o'clock at night, Um, it's what? What you can do. [00:05:30] And what you choose to do is is rather different from what you might do in the comfort of your own home. Though sometimes people risked taking someone they'd picked up at at one of the park's home. Um, and that sort of changed the dynamics a bit At that time in the late seventies, what were the biggest health risks for gay men? I think just sexually transmitted diseases [00:06:00] across the board, Um, none of which were particularly dangerous. I mean unpleasant. Yes. Um, I mean, the obvious ones. Syphilis, um, was was a was a major one. Um, gonorrhoea. Yeah, there was something else I was thinking of, too. Um, I had one. I was consulted by a young man who had managed to get [00:06:30] genital wards, and that was very distressing to him. Distressing to his girlfriend, too. Uh, and, uh, and surprisingly difficult to get rid of. Whereas things like syphilis, I mean in those days were were well under control. So the range of sexually transmitted diseases, although you know, you unpleasant, they weren't life threatening. And the other big danger, it's not quite a health danger. I suppose it is. [00:07:00] But there was also the risk of being, uh, being assaulted of being gay bashed. Did that happen often? Often enough. I don't know. One or two cases per year got into the into the papers. You occasionally heard of others? Um, I had I had at least one friend who was badly assaulted in Hagley Park. Oh, and and another friend who was another friend who took [00:07:30] someone home from the sauna. And that was a big mistake. And he was well bashed up. And I had to take him to A and E the next day to get, uh, more stitches and and treatment of one sort or another. That was pretty bad. He was also the the the perpetrator had also taken wallet and valuables from the house. So, having thumped him up and cleared off with with valuables [00:08:00] in that situation and when homosexuality was still illegal, was there a way of going to the police without kind of incriminating yourself? Yeah, not quite. It would pretend it would depend. What exactly you were YY you were complaining about? I complained about a burglary once, [00:08:30] and the cops came and I hadn't left stuff lying around deliberately, but But they spotted a obviously gay magazine at one stage, and they just sort of shrugged their shoulders and said, Oh, I see you've got other interests. Uh, not unpleasantly, but just, you know, they've noted I don't know whether they didn't develop the possibility that I might have been burgled by someone I had had a liaison with. I hadn't. I'd arrived home from [00:09:00] work to find the place broken into and a whole lot of stuff taken. Yeah, that sort of thing. Um, but I was one of those people who felt that the police were there in spite of my experiences that the police were there to, you know, to protect good, good citizens. And I felt that I was a good citizen and that I was entitled to to their, um, support and investigation. So with the health risks for for for gay men in the seventies in Christchurch, was, [00:09:30] was there any, uh, like, documentation, pamphlets, um, educational material that was given out to people about things like syphilis and gonorrhoea? Not not that I was aware of in terms of being targeted to gay people, Uh, I have in my collection of papers, a number of handout magazine types produced by students associations, Um, which, [00:10:00] all of which have a page or two out of 20 about homosexuality and that do all contain information about sexually transmitted diseases. I think the same could be said of the little red school book. You remember the The Taylor production. You you don't know about the little red school book. It was sort of vaguely connected with Mao's Little Red Book from the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution. [00:10:30] Same sort of size and format. But it was radical advice for high school students basically about anything and everything their rights dealing with parents, sex, homosexuality, masturbation, sexually transmitted disease and so on. It was quite an issue at the time. I've probably got a copy around somewhere so in, in terms of getting health messages out to game in there were those things from the student student unions. [00:11:00] Were there other things that were being published only once AIDS was on the scene. Uh, and then there was much more specific information produced, targeted at a an AIDS at a gay audience, and um, by then, the National Gay Rights Coalition was in existence, and I was involved in some of his activities and a group of three of us Hugo Guy, a nurse [00:11:30] called Gary Can. And I put together a little threefold pamphlet with an eye catching front page and then a lot of information about AIDS or grids, as it was known at the time. Gay related immune deficiency syndrome, Uh, a little bit about the, uh, about the opportunistic diseases that were most prevalent in those early stages [00:12:00] and information about the STD clinic and guarantees of confidentiality and that sort of thing. Let's just rewind a wee bit. And can you tell me before we get to HIV and AIDS? What was the National Gay rights Coalition, right? Well, it was it was a a sort of umbrella group for a lot of of gay and lesbian groups throughout the [00:12:30] country. It was national. Um, Christchurch took quite a prominent part in it. Um, head conferences, I think, you know, sent people overseas from time to time. Um, there was a lot of tension between the men and the women at some stages of that, um, and took an interest in law reform, um, gay rights issues, especially for young people, [00:13:00] especially for students uh, and picked up on things that were of concern to the gay community. And that's why um, you know, took an interest in in men's health in particular. And was it through the coalition that you first became aware of AIDS? I was certainly in the coalition at the time that I became first aware of that. I mean, I think, uh, not exactly through it, but, um, it was [00:13:30] the sort of thing we we started talking about. I mean, I. I became aware of AIDS in in as soon as it happened. Really? Um, you know, the the first reports I think in the states were June 1981 or within a month or two. we were aware out here that there was this new phenomenon and that it was a worry. Uh, and that was those early reports of of, uh, men presenting, uh, in the United [00:14:00] States with poses and Pneumocystis pneumonia, um, both of which are diseases that would not normally be, um, prevalent in younger people. And all of a sudden reports were coming into the Centre for Disease Control. I think it's called, uh, of these cases being reported now you're saying that about a month after it being reported in the states that you were picking up that information, how did you get that information? [00:14:30] Well, I think there must have been some reference in a, uh, in local papers, but in particular, uh, you know, a month of magazines from the United States took a month or two to get out here. Um, but, you know, the sorts of magazines like the Advocate that were coming to New Zealand carried articles about it and that first terribly confused God help us. What's happening? Sort of, uh, phase. And of course, [00:15:00] in a very short period of time, people started to die now overseas, and the real response in New Zealand was because of distance. We've got a chance to organise this before it hits. And in fact, with international travel, it didn't take long to make an appearance in New Zealand. Um, but we did feel that we had a tiny bit of lead time. [00:15:30] So if those first reports came out in June 1981 when did the ball start rolling in New Zealand? In terms of we, we've got to do something. Um, well, I can't remember when the AIDS support network, which was the precursor of the AIDS Foundation, set up. But the pamphlet that that Hugh and Gary and I wrote, um, I believe, was either late 83 or early 84. So that's [00:16:00] that's a bigger gap than I thought of, really. But in that time, it was just a case of sort of, you know what? What's going to happen soon after that? Once there was a real effort to to get organised. Um, I became involved with the group that petitioned, Harassed the the District Health Board into, you know, providing premises for the AIDS Foundation or for [00:16:30] the support network, Um, preferably providing some funding, uh, for staff, um, organising protocols for testing, uh, and particularly confidentiality around results. You know how they were going to. Because so we had the feeling right from the start that the most vulnerable section were casual, closeted [00:17:00] people. We thought that by and large, people who went to the sauna picked up information, got condoms and so forth, but it was the casual. I'm on my way home, and I'm going to pop into Hagley Park and have it off with someone that they they were people who were sort of more more danger, don't know whether we were right or not. But that's what we felt. So we felt that there needed to be some forms of publicity that could reach them. And they were particularly [00:17:30] vulnerable in terms of privacy because, you know, if they were going home to a family, um, they didn't want something from the district Health Board labelled sexually transmitted disease division arriving in the letter box. So a whole lot of things like that. And when you say we is that the people in the National Gay Rights Coalition for an actor looking at those dates, there is a good year to year and a half between the first reports [00:18:00] and the National Gay Rights Coalition putting out this pamphlet, What was the feeling in the interim time? Well, I, I think, to be honest, almost worldwide, there was still confusion. What is this? What's its cause? You know, it was there were years of debate about what what the causal organism was. You know, it had various names HTLV three [00:18:30] and then the French insisted on calling it something else, and eventually you know we settled on HIV. So it was stuff like that. Um uh, I mean, in the in the early days, there was all that discussion about, you know, green monkeys and and susceptible populations and so forth. And I remember one joke that must have been in. I'm laughing about something. But then it must have been in the advocate that I read it. But it was about a a young Jewish man who [00:19:00] who who had HIV, and he had trouble persuading his parents that he was a Asian. There was no way a young Jewish man was going to tell his parents that he was gay. And Haitians were one of the special susceptible populations. Yeah, that sort of black humour. Uh, and I think it was just confusing that in that period. Um, yeah, from 81 really to 83. [00:19:30] 84 even later. Just worldwide people were grasping on, you know. What is it? Where is it coming from? How do we control it? How bad is it going to be? And then, of course, people in the States just started to drive, uh, die in droves and then then bit by bit friends here died at that time, You were also visiting Australia. How was AIDS affecting [00:20:00] the communities there? Um, I didn't notice a great deal of difference. But then, by the time AIDS was on the scene, my visits to Australia were with my partner and we weren't really engaging and that we weren't socialising with people or engaging with people who were likely to be susceptible or involved. [00:20:30] So, I mean, I didn't get a chance to see what saunas were doing in Australia in 84. Um, I mean, I read about it in some of the Australian magazines, but by and large, what they were doing was similar to what we were doing. Now I keep on saying aids. But actually, at the time, that wasn't the word that was used. Was it or the acronym? I think it was by by 83 84. 0, no. Well, I'm sure [00:21:00] the Pam I'm I'm pretty sure our 83 84 pamphlet referred to grids, gay related immune deficiency syndrome. It was being used in the United States, and that was because they knew it was immune deficiency because people who normally threw off these um diseases for most of us, they don't even if we're carrying them. They don't affect us because our immune systems deal with them. [00:21:30] Uh, and they see those first reports. Those 1981 reports were all young gay men. Can you tell me about the discussions that were happening within the national Gay rights Coalition in terms of trying to formulate some kind of pamphlets or health messages for gay men? At the time, the effort was to to pick up the best advice from overseas to convert it to, um, New [00:22:00] Zealand terminology. Uh, make sure that all the contact information was was valid in New Zealand. Um, of course, one of the big worries at that point was that homosexual acts were still criminal. And that, of course, became a plank in the law reform debate. Because those people that I mentioned before who were most susceptible, most closeted and so forth they needed to know that they could go for a test [00:22:30] without the authorities making links with criminal activity. Did the coalition have any discussions with places like the Department of Health or other government agencies? Certainly. Did Department of Health for funding and my recollection is that the government did put up some funding quite early on, uh, and and locally, my biggest task. My biggest input locally was the arguments [00:23:00] with the district Health Board over funding premises, testing protocols and so on. Um, and they they probably weren't as early as 83 84. But they they can't let's say 84 85. You know, quite quite early on in the scheme of things, certainly before law reform and we had the aid support network formed a local branch, and we had regular meetings of the key people in that, [00:23:30] and by then we had a young doctor who was a major, uh, help in terms of the relationship with the hospital board. And there was a councillor who I think was funded by the government for, um, focused on AIDS. The leaflet that the coalition put out was that the first leaflet describing grids. Well, [00:24:00] I think it was, uh, in the New Zealand context. Um, I certainly haven't seen any hand out publicity. The the mayor. It was mainly a, um a Christchurch initiative. And I don't know what other centres were doing, but certainly in terms of the Christchurch area that was very early, and the the three or two of us at least were recognised relatively recently [00:24:30] for having you know, been involved in that very early initiative. Why do you think it was a community driven initiative that put out that first material and not something like the Department of Health? I think because they had no particular interest in gay men, they didn't know how they could communicate with with gay men, particularly of the type that we've referred to a couple of times, or perhaps more [00:25:00] casual participators. I mean, Department of Health publicity about a whole range of things seems to me have to have improved hugely over the decades since then. I mean, if I go into a doctor's waiting room, there's stuff about everything. I'm particularly interested in the stuff about diabetes, but I mean, there's all sorts of stuff pamphlet after pamphlet and in several languages. Well, that's relatively new in [00:25:30] my experience. And I we felt at the time that we needed to do something targeted at gay men because no one else was yet doing that. So the pamphlet came out, and where was it distributed? Sauna. We put copies in Los. We put, um, on service clubs, health clinics, doctors waiting rooms and so forth. Sometimes they were removed. [00:26:00] They because it's a threefold pamphlet. It's ordinary paper. It wasn't all that good for leaving and say the open air conveniences at Hagley Park. Um, and we were sort of we were sort of conscious of that. But, you know, we'd leave a few copies in a in a cubicle or or whatever. There was one. There was one set of los at the Polytech that I felt I was never involved in anything [00:26:30] there. But I felt that, um, it looked to me as though there were a few gay students sort of making use of that particular facility. So I put a pile of them in in the cubicles there, that sort of thing. You were saying that sometimes pamphlets were removed resistance to actually seeing this type of information. Where was that coming from? Would it be fair? The the front page of [00:27:00] it? It wasn't obscene or anything like that, but it was intended to be eye catching. And as I remembered, it was a a sort of, uh, it was borrowed from an American magazine. And it was a It was a, you know, a youngish man, you know, nearly naked and stretching up like this with 19 eighties long flowing hair. And, like so And I think some doctors receptionist just felt that that wasn't an appropriate [00:27:30] thing to be on their shelves. I don't know. I don't think medically that anyone would have rejected, although, Well, I mean, there was a very There was a very common reaction throughout the community that, you know, it served your right there through the mainstream community. Yeah, And I'm sure, you know, because I've known doctors receptionists who weren't very sympathetic but say unmarried mothers I mean sort [00:28:00] of pass now. But, you know, there was a you know, you you weren't all that keen about going to your GP about a sexually transmitted disease Didn't bother me because I would say, if you're taking a blood test for blood sugar, I want you to tick the HIV box. But, you know, most people would rather go very anonymously and give a false name at the clinic than than front up with a GP. How did the [00:28:30] gay community respond to the pamphlet? I think it was fairly positive. Certainly felt that, you know, that it was important that we've made an effort. Uh, what I can't remember is whether there was anything or not about condoms. And yet by 83 84 that ought to have been. Was there a feeling within the gay community that this is something happening elsewhere and won't happen in Christchurch? We thought it would. We thought it would come, but we thought we we thought we had [00:29:00] lead time. That's my recollection of it. And so, of course, when the first person you know arrived back from overseas suffering from AIDS, that was bad. That was bad news anywhere in New Zealand. I mean, not Christchurch in particular. But it was quite early on, um, the the the first of the first of acquaintances people that I, you know, had met and had some social contact with, uh died. It was pretty pretty bad news. [00:29:30] I also I also had been because although I wasn't cruising a great deal, I mean, I wasn't completely, uh, without risk. And so as soon as the clinic was properly set up partly because I thought I need a clean bill of health. And partly because I was I was in the Gay Rights Coalition and I was monitoring all this and I thought, I want to see what actually happens if someone that they [00:30:00] don't know is involved. Not exactly. You know, the mystery shopper. But but But that that sort of approach, I want to see how I am actually treated, uh, right through the process. And it was fine whether it would be fine for everyone. I don't know. I mean, I wasn't a working class Polynesian, for example. I don't just don't know, but from my point of view and that I was approaching it with a certain amount of information a certain amount of, um, you know, political and public confidence. [00:30:30] Um, but it it was fine. I was pleased to have done it. And as I said before, uh, after that, any time blood was being taken, I just ask the GP to tick the box. So, working on the information you had about HIV and AIDS when you first became aware of it, did that change your sexual practises? No. [00:31:00] I knew. And I knew enough about what activities were significantly risky. and I wasn't actually participating in those with casual people. Um, I I it it did. It did slow me down. It did. It changed the pattern in that respect. And, you know, David was tested and I was tested, and we were both, um, negative. So, [00:31:30] uh, I guess I was just more more careful, but I wasn't really indulging in high risk activity. Can you recall when the first person you knew came back to New Zealand or was in New Zealand and discovered they were HIV positive? There was a guy who had had some contact with the scent, the gay Catholic group that I was involved in. [00:32:00] Nice guy, Very attractive guy. And I think I think that was a feature. Young men who were in the gay community, considered to be particularly attractive, were probably particularly sexually active and probably were more susceptible to infection. Um, but that was I was very, very sad. I've been to a few gay funerals, but his was the first [00:32:30] and the and the saddest. It was just just terrible, really. To have lost such a beautiful person, lost anyone but to to have lost such a beautiful person so early in his life. Really? Had you ever encountered anything like that before In terms of his illness? Uh, I think it just it made me very sad for his loss, but also brought it [00:33:00] well and truly home that this was now a New Zealand issue. I mean, I've known all that, and I said we were sort of preparing for it and waiting for it and expecting it. But it was here it was It's arrived, Um, and a reminder that we needed to be, you know, more careful. And that and that there were people who were particularly susceptible for one reason or another. Hm. Can you describe how the [00:33:30] gay community changed, if at all, from the period of first becoming aware of HIV A. I DS through to the first people coming into Christchurch with the virus, just that sense of waiting, and now it's arrived. And, uh, some of us involved in trying to set up the systems that would be needed to address it, the training workshops for carers, for example. [00:34:00] Um and I'm I'm sure it did change some people's behaviour and and certainly for for anyone who was involved and um, or or condoms at at the sauna. And I think that anyone who was at risk and who was involved in an or sex was probably being more cautious. I think that's I think that slacked off since [00:34:30] possibly now that it's not an absolute and automatic immediate death sentence. Were you involved in some of the training to become carers? Yep. Uh, and those were the days when we were trying to put together a pool of people who could be called on and they they involved, you know, hygiene, basic car and skills of the first thing that was always confronting your [00:35:00] own fears and and checking out your own prejudices and and anxieties about it. Bring them out in the open dealing with them, if you could. Um, I remember, um, guided visualisation lying back and thinking about, you know, being led through, um, through reflections. Um, I was never called on to to care for anyone with aids, but the training that I got [00:35:30] was very valuable and caring for David. And David was your partner for 30 years, and he he died of motor neurone disease Motor neuron disease, November 95 uh, 26 months from first symptom to diagnosis. Uh, 13 months from first symptoms to diagnosis and another 13 months from diagnosis to death. So for just over two years, the [00:36:00] training was that undertaken through the aid support network. That's as I recall. And you were saying that you were helping in the Christchurch region getting off space or pushing for office office space? Yeah, it was for the setting up of the route clinic. Where was it going to be? And there was a fair bit of I mean, there was a fair bit of resistance. Um, not opposition. [00:36:30] Reluctance resistance. I felt on the part of the people we were dealing with in terms of fronting up with the with the funds and the and the and the premises. What do you think it was? I think pressure on resources generally. I mean, there always has been pressure on resources and possibly a group that, you know, important to have There was there was a lot of reaction overseas by then, all this attention going on AIDS, and I was [00:37:00] aware of this through the motor neuron network, which is, you know, a terrible disease and affects you know, um, 10,000 in USA and Canada and so forth. They can't get any publicity. There's no, you know, there's no film star promoting their cause, and all this money is going to these sort of thing. There was an element of that, and I think I we never had this out with them. But I, I think that a certain reluctance [00:37:30] and minimal cooperation was because there were lots of other groups in in Christchurch or in New Zealand who needed funding and premises and staffing, uh, who were more deserving. You know, you only get this disease because you've been up to no good. Yeah, So were the publications that were put out in the early years about protection. [00:38:00] So stopping people from from getting the virus or were they more about supporting people with the virus? That first pamphlet certainly describe the symptoms and advertise the testing. Can you recall the the types of language more specific words? We We've always had that issue in in game related matters, you know? Do you call a fuck fuck or don't you sort of thing. You know, um uh, [00:38:30] that first pamphlet was fairly technical. I mean, it would it would use anatomical words rather than slang words. And that's partly because the tone of it was talking about, you know, sarcoma and describing it and, you know, that sort of thing. Uh, so that was my So, in spite of the front cover, I think it was a fairly serious pamphlet aimed to communicate information. [00:39:00] The, uh I can't remember seeing early public health stuff, but I know that aid support network people like Ray would be wanting it to would be wanting it to be blunt and direct. And I guess we got around to that, too. Yeah. And, you know, there were campaigns, you know, the Penis dressed in a condom and all that [00:39:30] sort of thing. So there was there was an easing that there was a shift in how clinical the information needed to be. So I think it did become blunter and and more direct at this time in the eighties. Were you quite involved in the church that came and went at about the time David was dying? 85. Uh, I, I really dropped out. So I'd been strongly involved in the late [00:40:00] seventies, early eighties, I went through a period of not being terribly involved, and then once David had died, it sounds odd, but once David had died, I really returned to the church. Can you describe the church's reaction to HIV? A. I DS. In those early years, um, the local church was unsupportive. There were two nuns, Sisters [00:40:30] of Compassion Sister Sue and Sister Francy, who were involved in the early days of the Aid Support Network. They are a community of nuns that if I got it right who were dedicated to health issues and they got involved in the Aid Support Network, the bishop of the time forbade them to be involved. And I was absolutely appalled. And I wrote to the bishop saying, You know that it's that what you've what you've [00:41:00] ordered is absolutely disgusting. These women were da, da, da and furthermore, for God's sake, if you're going to have anything to say about homosexuality or AIDS in future, don't use Father X as your spokesperson. Just rounding up this chat about HIV and AIDS, did you, at the time think it would become what it's become now? I think [00:41:30] we knew bad. Uh, bad news was on the way. Uh, and there was a period, uh, before some of the drug companies really got into research and development of medication. There was a period where, um I. I thought it was going to be a huge toll worldwide. Now I mean, I know it has been. You only have to look at the AIDS cook projects and so forth. It's been terrible, [00:42:00] but, um, it's perhaps not developed and gay community in the West, to the extent that I might have once feared, so that now I'm in. My compassion goes out to the populations of Southern Africa. You know, we the three and five people infected with HIV, and it's just [00:42:30] just colossal. And of course, some people, God help us. Some people say, Well, that's God's way of controlling the population level, make you weep. I don't believe in a God who operates like that.

IRN: 418
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TITLE: Ralph Knowles - Dunedin beats and homosexual law reform
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ralph Knowles
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1950s; 1960s; 1980s; Christchurch; Dunedin; Gay Task Force; Homosexual Law Reform Society; Ralph Knowles; Wakefield sauna (second); Wellington; activism; anonymous sex; beats; cruising; gay; gay liberation movement; homosexual law reform; human rights; police; profile; sex; sexuality; venues
DATE: 3 December 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Christchurch, Christchurch, Canterbury
CONTEXT: In this podcast Ralph Knowles remembers the Dunedin beats of the 1950s, and being involved in the campaigns for homosexual law reform. Ralph died on 3 July 2019.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I was brought up in, uh, Dunedin, north, the north end of Dunedin. And opposite our place was the North Ground, which was a, um, a city block sized, um, training area, rugby and cricket and so forth. And, uh, in one corner of the north ground was an old fashioned men's loo. You know, concrete. No, No lights. No Sanit. Well, I was gonna say [00:00:30] no sanitation, but you know what I mean? A real old stuff. You know, I was always conscious of that as a boy, and it later became one of the places where I regularly routinely, one might say cruised. Um, my first. My first sexual awareness all the time when I sort of came to puberty was when I was about age 12. That would be the end of 1957. Something like that. Um, [00:01:00] and I really had no sexual experience except one sort of fumbling with a boy at intermediate, uh, which didn't really mean anything much until the year that I was involved as a schoolboy in a French play. And it was during the the down time of that production that I became friendly with, uh, with a guy who had been at school a few years ahead of me, had my first [00:01:30] adult sexual experience with him, and that was so great that it triggered a pattern. I come across a book called Minority that actually spelled out. You know, how you went about picking people up and and so forth anyway might have learned might have might have come to the same conclusions anyway. But so for those from that point on, so I'm saying Fifth form, sixth form and so forth. Um, [00:02:00] I was cruising in Dunedin fairly steadily, especially on the north ground. And by and large, they were anonymous. One-off experiences about a couple of people who, uh, I met more than once. One was a very nice guy who subsequently got caught by the police and prosecuted and jailed. Uh, and another was a medical student who was in the one of the university [00:02:30] rugby teams. And he was we're saying late autumn, early winter, he was practising on. He was doing training on on the on the north ground, and I hung around and it was obvious that I was you know, we're talking about nine o'clock at night in winter. I hung around and he eventually came over and made contact with me. And [00:03:00] he and I met. Never knew his name, uh, learned a wee bit about him, that he was doing medicine and stuff like that. But, uh, I, uh I went with him, I don't know, perhaps a dozen times through that winter. Uh, and that was a great I have to say, that was a great pleasure to me. He was a hell of a nice guy, and we hit it off sexually, so that was good. Um, [00:03:30] there were other venues around Dunedin that I occasionally got to, but I didn't have a car, and and And it wasn't the sort of thing you didn't go out. I didn't go out at night on a bike. Um, but there were other other places that I stopped off at and, um, and came to recognise one or two people. Um, when? When you say cruising, can you describe for me how [00:04:00] you would cruise somebody at that time? We're talking in the late 19 fifties. How you would figure out that this person was actually walking for sex and and how it all kind of worked? Yeah, well, the usual. The usual scene would be, uh, a public toilet at the urinals. And, you know, if you were there to pee, and then that was over in a relatively short period of time, and you zipped up and left, [00:04:30] um, if you if you stay If you hung around, if you loit then A and someone else was loitering it. It became pretty obvious to each of you that the that the other was, uh, interested or potentially interested. And sometimes that would involve, you know, leaving the toilet and then having a chat out on the street with very careful chat testing, [00:05:00] whether the other, the other person was genuinely interested and then finding somewhere nearby. I didn't have a car, but the other, the other people I picked up usually if it wasn't the north ground, there was plenty of potential. And, you know, around the north ground where you could, uh, hide away for a few minutes, Um, so it was that very testing the water, you know, um, these days people talk about [00:05:30] I don't think that really applied to me in those days, but, uh, the behaviour was behaviour on my part the behaviour on the other person's part was was pretty obvious to each other, even if ordinary members of the public might not have actually realised there was anything going on, because at this time it was still legal. And how and indeed you had to be bloody careful that the person [00:06:00] who appeared to be interested wasn't, in fact, a decoy cop, which certainly happened to me on one occasion and led to my arrest. Um, but at this stage, how old are you at? At this point, I'd be saying 1963. So I'm 62. 63 18 19. Something like that. Um, but quite steadily over those years, from about 16 on 16, 17, 18, 19. Could [00:06:30] you spot a homosexual? No, not not No, definitely not in those circumstances. I thought about it later, uh, in in terms of, you know, staff and colleagues or people in a public place. And, uh, if if you're in, I feel that if I'm in reasonably long conversation with someone in a busy public setting, um, that I would I might well pick up hints [00:07:00] from who they looked at and who they, uh, seem to take an extra interest in, and I might I might think, Oh, you know, he's just spotted someone coming in the door who's just come in the door. Oh, I see that attractive young man. Oh, I Perhaps, you know, perhaps this is Ian's interest, you know, that sort of thing. But not in these circumstances. So there was no opportunity to I. I don't think I had any intuition. It was just once they started to behave [00:07:30] in a reciprocal way to the way I was behaving. So in the late fifties, did you ever pick up the wrong person? As in as in, you know, somebody that wanted to bash you or No, no, no, certainly not. At that time, I might have picked up the wrong person. And what they expected of me, uh, wasn't what I was comfortable with. Uh, that happened occasionally. Um, [00:08:00] but more often than not, we quite quickly established what the other person expected or was interested in doing or indeed not doing. And I have I have been confronted in Christchurch in more recent years on two separate occasions by young men who were out to make trouble. I've had a knife pulled on me, and I've had two watches stolen. [00:08:30] But that's not even recent. That's, you know, 10 years ago or so. So can you identify any other beats around that were were happening at that time? Um, no, they were. They were mainly centred on public facilities at different parks. Um, there was no sauna or anything of that sort at the time. Uh, and as far as I was aware, [00:09:00] there was no no, no club like the do society in or anything like that, um, the beach, the gardens, and then facilities on parks and and training with sports grounds. I'm sure there was other things going on, but I wasn't party to them. We say nowadays that, um, people can live a completely open gay life [00:09:30] and that involves you know, who you live with, how you live. And and sex and and and stuff like that. Back then in the fifties, what did it mean to be gay? Well, for me, it was just that major sense of difference. Um, I wasn't then at the age where I would have been expecting. Well, I suppose I was expected to have a girlfriend. And at high school Somewhat to my shame, I did, in fact, have a steady girlfriend. [00:10:00] Um, that didn't last beyond the end of high school. Um, I you know, we we went to all the dancers there. There was a small group of of boys from Otago boys who who had girlfriends from Otago girls, and we'd go to the school dances and Bible class socials and things like that together. Um, but I feel very sorry about it now, but, you know, I would take I would take my girlfriend home and she would obviously be [00:10:30] interested in in getting a bit sort of intimate. And I'd be thinking, Bloody hell, it's half past 12. If I don't get back down to back down to George Street, I'm going to be too late. Uh, I say that with a sense of shame. Really? Uh, and and the relationship didn't really last. We put this part quite amicably. I think Jean realised that the, uh, I wasn't really terribly interested in her, and I just [00:11:00] felt that it was better to let it go. What else did it mean to be gay? Different, isolated. A bit careful, but it was a compartment of life. I still had ordinary friendships. I had my family and friends. Life was OK. Um, I Although being homosexual is a major component of one's life, it's not all of life. Um, [00:11:30] and there were plenty of other things happening in in in life. Did you have gay friends? None at all to two guys who were at school with me one my year, one my class at Otago boys and one a year behind us. Uh, have since identified to me as gay. Um, with the guy who was in my class. [00:12:00] I'm really rather sorry that I didn't that we didn't realise this about each other then. I don't think either of us were the obvious ones in the class. To be honest, I certainly didn't. Didn't suspect him of being gay. Um, and the the other one that the like, the the guy who was one year behind, he had the nickname of Flowery, and he was quite camp and quite ostentatiously effeminate. [00:12:30] Um, and I didn't have any school contact with him, but I had I met him later on in Dunedin, and I've since been in touch with him. Uh, just by email. and flowy was the name given by other students. What other? What other names would they call people? Uh, well, homosexual deviant in. Well, what would school kids call that? Um, queer would be the main one in those days. [00:13:00] Queer. Some of the more knowledgeable ones might talk about poo pushing or something like that. Or just assuming that the only thing you were interested in was anal sex. Um, Ben, um, yeah, would be the main one. I keep this P FA came into use at one stage, and I remember David Long using the word in some sort of public context and claiming later [00:13:30] that he didn't actually know what it what it normally meant. Uh, but anyway, uh, I don't remember from my school days, but certainly not long after. Perhaps, can you recall at that time, were there any images in the media? Um, on the radio and in newspapers, et cetera, that were obviously gay characters? Uh, I'd say absolutely not. [00:14:00] Uh, the there may have been after television came in. There might have been one or two of those sort of camp comedians, but at the but at the time, no. And I've made quite AAA study of what you might call popular fiction with a gay theme. And until quite late it was really doom and gloom and usually involved a suicide. [00:14:30] Um And then there was a gradual change, and I've got one or two books from that very early period where there might have been a suicide. But the main character came out the other end, usually with a with a partner, Uh, and then one, which was just written shortly after Stonewall in 1969. It was a very positive novel and bit by bit after that. And then, of course, we started eventually to get perfectly ordinary gay characters in, uh, almost, You know, [00:15:00] if it was American, there had to be at least one black character and one gay character. Uh, and some of the better English TV programmes have, quite, I think, quite reasonable, truthful and positive. Um, displays of gay gay characters. The beats in Dunedin, the men that you actually met on the on the beats. Could you describe them? Did they have any? Were [00:15:30] there any similar features? Um, I think they were. I think they were quite pleased to find a school boy. I mean, you know, I was a physically mature school boy, but nevertheless, I was a school boy. Um, but by and by and large, um, at the north ground, you got, you know, some some sort of middle class intellectual types. Uh, all the people I went with were [00:16:00] normal sort of average males. Um, you know, masculine looking, masculine acting, except in the sexual sense. Um, yeah. If you had been caught at that time or if they had been caught at that time, what would have the, um, consequences? Been if I'd been caught? Certainly charged. That really would [00:16:30] have been terrible and socially terrible. Shame. This is the shame of it. The embarrassment, the embarrassment for family. But it didn't stop me taking the risk. You were extra careful if you thought that the person might be a police decoy. Uh, but, uh, I only once had trouble with the police in that period, and that was 1965. [00:17:00] So I'm at varsity by then. And it was I'd been in the capping concert that year, and I met a guy at, uh at the at the do the capping function. After that and he had a car. Nice new console, Cortina console Ford console. And we got in the car and we drove way down Logan Park to find a discrete place. And I don't [00:17:30] know why the cops thought we were suspicious, but they followed us. And because this was a long one way, Uh uh, no end, no Exit street. Um, they caught up with us and challenged us. By then we had swapped stories. And of course, by that time, um, we were able to say that we yes, we were guilty. We thought [00:18:00] that they knew that we were underage drinkers. Um, they got they. They required the other guy to report with his driver's licence. He didn't have his driver's licence on him, and they required him to report the next day. But by then he said, we'd swapped names. We were able to say we knew each other, but I knew he was a law student. He knew what I was doing. And so for them, we sort of had a [00:18:30] a story that was a bit thin, but it was It was plausible. The drinking age must have been 21 then and I was 20 coming up 21 later that year. But that was the story we built on. And when the cops followed you down down that road and they pulled you over, what kind of questions did they ask? What? What were they? What are you doing? Why are you down here? This is a long way out of your normal way. Where are you going? To you know. Who are you? Do you know each other? [00:19:00] I mean, they I'm sure they knew what we were up to. Um did they make any reference to? No. And we came straight out of the story that we thought was underage drinking. They were interested in. So were the were the police, uh, doing a lot of decoy work and trying to get people I? I think so. Yeah. I think that varied from time to time. I think what tended to happen was [00:19:30] when you got a When you got a senior police officer who had a bit of a thing about it, he would put more resources into it. Uh, that's the general feeling. II I got, um so I don't know how widespread it was. I do know that one, if not two, if not three police were, uh, were operating in 1979 when I was arrested. I mean, that was definitely a decoy. [00:20:00] A provocateur type situation. So in those early years in the fifties and sixties in Dunedin was the talk amongst the people on the beach about police entrapment or police picking people up? Yes. Yes, definitely. Um, you would get people who said, you know, by the way, I've seen you here before. You just need to be careful. The [00:20:30] the guy in the blue vel, uh, as a police officer. So just watch out. Yeah, that that sort of thing. Or they might say, Have you seen a guy about, you know, 5 10 with dark curly hair around? And you might say I think I saw him last week. Well, watch out for him. I think he's a police. Um, you know, I think he is a policeman, that sort of thing. Could you spot them? [00:21:00] No, not really. Uh, no, They they behave as one would expect someone you were interested to behave. And where do you think they got? I suppose the knowledge of how to behave from I mean, were these, for instance, gay policemen? Well, I've always assumed that that must have been. Although in those days I think it would be more than your employment was worth for a police officer to identify as gay. [00:21:30] Um, perhaps they got them from the same books I was reading. Can you recall any media response if somebody was convicted of an indecency? Basically no. Great, No great flurry of. But they would They would publish the court news. They would identify you by name. Uh, and the charge and the sentence. Um, if there was something a bit more sensational because of the person involved, [00:22:00] there might be a bit a bit more publicity and And if there was not so much people, uh, caught on the on the beat. But if there was something a bit more what they would think of as sinister, um you know, choir master choir boys, that sort of thing, truth in particular, used to do major articles on that. And I'm just gonna pick up when I say indecency. That was the charge, wasn't it? When if you [00:22:30] were charged, it was an indecent assault on a mat, and that was even, uh, being sexually active with another male of the same age who was consenting, it would still be in. It didn't matter what the age was. The in the in the Crimes Act, because it was a crime. Uh, there was probably a difference if the other person was under 12. Uh, I don't think 16 was at issue [00:23:00] then was for males and females, but not for, uh it wasn't until after law reform that 16 became the age of consent. Because, of course, before that, there was no age of consent because you couldn't consent to a crime. So you moved from Dunedin to Wellington for a couple of Yeah. When was that? I moved to Wellington in 1971. And what was the gay scene like in Wellington? Didn't have much to do [00:23:30] with it. I was living in an urban commune. David and I paired up with the guy who had introduced me to David and his wife. So there were four of us living in Kilburn. And, um, none of us get personal money. Three of us were working. The three men were working and the woman stayed at home and looked after the child and we paid all our pay [00:24:00] into one bank account. And we drew from what we needed. Or if it was a major item by consultation with the whole group. Financially, it worked out well. In terms of relationships. It was catastrophic. And and and it eventually broke up. Um, David moved out first, and then I found it impossible living apart from him. So I also moved out and joined him. And David was somebody you met [00:24:30] via the church. No, no, David was the person that, uh, I was introduced to by a fellow student at at college in Dunedin. Uh, this fellow student had had said that he had a friend in Timaru who, uh, was very distressed because he was homosexual, didn't know what to do about it. And, uh, I said, well, so was I. And wasn't anything ready to help. So David and I met and we courted for, I don't know, a few months [00:25:00] and then began a sexual relationship and then started living together and lived together on more or less lived together from then, till the time David died in 1995. But there was this brief period uh, during a commune just a week or two in those commune days when David had moved out. Uh, and I remained in the commune. So did you experience any gay lifestyle in Wellington? Uh, not really. Although I was a member of the [00:25:30] New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society. Um, and there was one very brief period where David and I went to the Wakefield Street sauna. Um, but that was about the limit of it, Really? I mean, I was aware that there was the Dorian Society. Uh, I was quite active with the homosexual Law Reform Society, but that was all terribly proper. What was the Wakefield [00:26:00] like to create? Very a novelty. As far as I was concerned, I'd never read anything like it. Um, a lot of people Surprising, surprising freedom. Um, relatively easy to engage with with someone who was attractive to you and who found you attractive. Um, it didn't It wasn't. It wasn't a great success to go with your [00:26:30] life partner, even though you both talked about it and were both open to the idea. Or particularly if one of you did pick up someone and there was some sort of sexual engagement at the time and the other Hadn't you know that? Not straightforward. We didn't persist with it, Really? I mean, was it quite well populated? Yeah, as I say, very novel. I mean, I knew that such places existed in [00:27:00] in, um, America. Uh, and I subsequently found out there are plenty of them in Australia, but, um, it was pretty novel. How did you get that information that they were in America and elsewhere through American gay magazines, Basically. And in terms of Australia, um, I went to Australia on a on a training trip quite early in my, um, administrative career and, you know, sort of visited [00:27:30] saunas in both Melbourne and Sydney. So how was getting publications gay publications into New Zealand? How How was that? Those more straightforward magazines like advocate or the village voice and papers like that. Not that the Village voice was explicitly gay, but it carried a lot of gay advertisements and things. Um, they were OK, but, um, the the customs were were certainly down on anything. That was pornography. I mean, stuff that you could pick up at the corner. [00:28:00] Dairy now was confiscated, and you were in big trouble for trying to import it. Um, I had a very complicated arrangement. Had a PO. Box at that, uh, in my early days in Christchurch and we used to use a fictitious name and get publications sent to MJ. Ryan at PO. Box 22718. and if you got a card from customs saying that they were holding an item addressed to MJ Ryan, you wrote across the card not [00:28:30] known at this address and just abandoned it, And if it got through, that was fine. You collected MJ Ryan's mail. It seems hard to believe, because we were there many times where customers would would pick that up twice. I had to abandon things that had been posted back to me, or that I had posted back from Australia rather than try and bring them in through a suitcase. But it's interesting that they would allow things like [00:29:00] the Advocate which was would still be promoting homosexuality. Yeah, Yeah, um, they they seem to be. Of course, they they No, they didn't like they didn't like the more extreme fiction. Um, for example, James Baldwin's another country was banned when it was first published, and then this really intrigues me to this day. And then it was released in hardback. [00:29:30] But the paperback was banned. So if you were a serious enough book collector and wealthy enough to pay for the hard back, you were probably trustworthy. But if you just wanted a popular four and six bene paperback No, I didn't believe it. So, experiencing that stuff overseas, how did it impact [00:30:00] on you when you came back to New Zealand and it was a bit more conservative? Um, really, an acknowledgement of that. I don't think I ever thought of moving to Australia just because you could get, you know, sexier magazines. But, uh, you were conscious that New Zealand was was a bit behind the times. Yeah, clearly this gay liberation movements were ahead in the States and in Australia. Not so much about the UK, but, [00:30:30] um, Australia and the States. Definitely. And But by then, the law reform movement in the early days of gay liberation and so forth was starting to make an impact here, and there was that feeling that it would come. So what year was this? Well, I mean, Stonewall was 69 but I'm talking about being in in Australia in 1980 my first trip to [00:31:00] Australia. So sort of about that time. And you know, by then the Law Reform Society had been chugging away for quite some time. I joined the Law Reform Society in 1967. So what are we talking about? 13 years or more? Um, be before this period and a and then by 85 we were in the thick of the law reform campaign, and I do think that we're talking about publications [00:31:30] and and so forth. I do think that once once homosexual activity was decriminalised, the argument that customs and CSS used that such publications had been promoting a crime was no longer an argument they could use or wanted to use. And I think that, you know, the the opening of of, uh or the reduction of of censorship about gay issues started from about that point, [00:32:00] as far as I can tell Now, apart from major violence and bestiality and probably paedophilia, though, that's really open, Open centre, I think certainly I bought, you know, videos and C DS and magazines that would have been unheard of and in the sixties or seventies. I want to come back to the, uh, various homosexual law reform groups. [00:32:30] Um, but you mentioned earlier that you had been involved in a charge of, uh, indecency in the late seventies. Can you tell me about that? Right. The the the charge was actually, uh, being a rogue and vagabond and loitering with intent. We didn't get as far as indecency, but I was loitering with intent to commit a crime, which would have been indecent assault on a male. Um, I was coming [00:33:00] home late at night. It had been a hell of a day. Um, I shouldn't have been cruising, but I did. Still in those days, sort of occasionally pop in. There seemed to be a flurry of activity around the public conveniences in Manchester Street. So we're in Christchurch? Yeah, 1979. Um, there've been a couple of of bashings there in recent times. Looked like a flurry of activity. And I thought, [00:33:30] uh uh, What's going on here? So I stopped and went in. There was a guy at the urinal. Might have been two guys can't remember. Exactly. And but I was a bit suspicious, and I left but one of the guys left. I left, he went back in and I went back in. And then I became suspicious, and I decided I need to get [00:34:00] out of here and out of here fast. So I left and was confronted at the door by a third cop who subsequently arrested me for loitering with intent, being a rogue and a bond in a public place. They they arrested me. He took me to the police station and at the police station. As they were taking my statement, one of the cops started really exaggerating what [00:34:30] I had done. I hadn't, You know, I hadn't done a thing other than going back in once, twice, uh, and he started inventing stuff, and I By then I sort of had what's about me. I mean, I knew what you were supposed to do because I published the list of what you do if the police get you and, uh and I thought no to her. No, I'm not taking any more of this. So at that point, I declined to answer any further questions [00:35:00] and said that I wanted my phone call. Who was I going to run? Well, I said I was going to ring David Cable, who was a lawyer. Was he an MP at that point anyway? He was a prominent politician, Uh, and he was chair of the Politic council. And so on whether I would have run David, I've worked. I've worked subsequently worked with David Cable during the law reform campaign. So I mean, there's nothing, um, peculiar about that. [00:35:30] The police said, Oh, you wouldn't want your employers to know, would you? And I said, uh, be no news to them. And indeed, subsequently, my boss offered a character reference, but you know, I shouldn't have been there. I hadn't been completely honest with David about what little cruising I was still doing, and [00:36:00] it was a matter of great distress to him and subsequently, of course, to me. And we got over that, and we had our moment subsequently. But we got over that, but it wasn't wasn't a good time, although, you know, there was no way I wasn't gonna be out it. But I still didn't want my name in the charge on the front page of the in the court news and the paper, and I certainly I knew I wouldn't [00:36:30] be jailed, but I didn't really want to be convicted or or fined. And as it happened, they, uh they subsequently dropped the charges. Now it's interesting. One of the things I put in my in my defence. My statement of of defence was that I was openly gay, that my employers and family knew I was gay and furthermore, that a senior police officer the year before had [00:37:00] rung me at work to say, uh, you know, forgive me if I'm wrong, but I understand that you are a prominent member of the gay community to which I said Yes, I am. And he said, Could you get this message out to the community that we want to know what was going on in the park on a particular night when someone had been badly assaulted? And we want you to get the message out that if people come forward [00:37:30] to say that they were in the park that night and what they saw, we will treat that with complete discretion and there will be no consequences. Can you get that message out to which I said Yes, I'll do what I can. So now that I was being done by the police, I was able to say, Hey, there's nothing secret about this And furthermore, I've cooperated with you guys before but it was really the thing that two things really annoyed me that they were [00:38:00] set up. Uh, they were decoys and that when the story, as it was being put down on paper, didn't really add up to much that they started, that one guy in particular started exaggerating. I was intrigued. He then disappeared. It was sort of almost good cock Babcock, because the guy who then escorted me off the premises dealt with bail and and took me off the premises, apologised for the behaviour [00:38:30] of his colleague. Sorry about my mate upstairs. He gets a bit carried away or something plays like that. But for the few months between being charged and being told that the charges were withdrawn, they were pretty tense at home in particular, what could have been the result of being charged with loitering and being a vagabond and a vagrant in the public [00:39:00] place for 500 bucks and publicity. And again, you see, I mean, I would I wasn't ashamed of being gay, but I really didn't want this episode in the paper. For my sake, For David's sake, for my family's sake, I just I mean, you know, now, uh, you know, I've been involved in things like that, uh, through rainbow coloured glasses. I mean, I, uh, my name and my bits [00:39:30] of my story have appeared all over the place. So it's not an issue now, but at the at the time, although I was out, I I'm I was a bit embarrassed about the whole cruising thing. Why do you think that the police were actively policing the toilets? Don't know what it was. I was always told that they only reacted if there'd been some complaints. Now, in terms of that particular venue, [00:40:00] there had been some violence there earlier. So one could say that they were there legitimately or sort of, you know, that it was within their range of duties. I don't think that warranted having a couple of decoys, uh, or embroidering the story. Um, I've also been told that, you know, different times of different senior police officers, uh, you know, put more energy and resource [00:40:30] into it than others. Um, several of my friends have had brushes with the police of that sort. And as I've said to you, I've had a couple the one and years before. And then and then this one. Do you have other examples of instances where where gay men have maybe been targeted by by their officials or people going to officials? There was 11 [00:41:00] example in Dunedin, Uh, that affected me quite profoundly. Uh, because I knew I knew reasonably well, one of the people who were involved, um, my friend had a relationship with with a bisexual guy, Um, who at the time had a girlfriend as well as a boyfriend. The girlfriend, As I understand it, became jealous of the amount of time my friend and the boyfriend [00:41:30] were were spending together and provided the police with information about where and when they would be together. The police raided the house, found them in bed together, arrested them, took them back to the police station and separated them, and told each of them that the other had confessed to what they'd been doing. [00:42:00] Neither had, in fact, um, and as a consequence of that, my friend was convicted and required May have been fined and I can't remember but was required to undergo therapy at Ashburn Hall, The psychiatric, the private psy psychiatric facility in Dunedin and the bisexual boyfriend, uh, was, uh, expelled from the country. He was a Dutch national and was sent home. [00:42:30] Um, I thought that was pretty grim. I wasn't able to do much other than provide my friend with, you know, support and the offer offer of character reference and stuff like that. But I That was pretty grim, really. What year was that? Uh, I was still in Dunedin, so it's before 1971. And the only reason the police raided that house was because of homosexual [00:43:00] activity. I don't believe there was anything else involved. There was never any suggestion about, you know, drugs or no, I mean, my friend was a was probably at varsity at that point and went on to Teachers College and became a very good teacher. And that was interesting in itself that he declared this incident in this application for Teachers College and the authorities. The teacher's college authorities at that point were wise enough to know that someone who was who [00:43:30] was caught in these circumstances with an adult was not necessarily a danger to school Children. Not everyone would have drawn that conclusion at the time. Mhm. Just thinking along the lines of of crime and impact. And I'm wondering, did things like the, um Charles Everhart killing in Hagley Park and the Parker Hume murder in Christchurch [00:44:00] Did they have any impact on you? Um, the the Hagley Park murder certainly did, Um, at the at the time, I mean, I was absolutely horrified that courts reached the conclusion they did. Um, not long after that, a case of more of of my sort of, you know, being a sort of thing. Anyway, a case came up before [00:44:30] a stipend magistrate, as called then would have been now called a district court judge, and he dismissed the charges. And I think the police appealed that and won on appeal. Uh, but that was the That was the first time I recall hearing of a judge who said, Oh, for goodness sake. Mm. It was a time when we were looking for any little shifts in public [00:45:00] opinion and public behaviour. All of that was happening around the mid sixties and a wee bit later. Yeah, You said earlier that you joined the Homosexual Law Reform Society in 1967. Is that when it started or it can't have been going long, I think it might have been 1965. Um, so I was starting to engage [00:45:30] with law reform issues. And I became, uh, a regular pen pal with Jack Goodwin, who was the secretary of the homosexual Law Reform Society at that stage. Stayed with him once or twice in Wellington, and he stayed with David and me here in Christchurch. Um, And at that time, uh, we got a wee bit of response, mainly from a Methodist minister in Dunedin [00:46:00] North who also wanted to get involved in the move for change. So we had sort of a bit of letter writing and the occasional small scale public meeting, nothing very significant or or well organised. And at that point, I just started keeping track of everything that's happening in the law reform scene, writing the old letter petition in Parliament, agonising over the Vin young [00:46:30] attempt and the Warren Freer attempt. Um, it must have been quite something if you were being involved with the Law Reform Society in the 65 to 67 and then having stone wall in the US in 1969 when stone wall happened. How how How did you How did you respond? How did what did you think of that? Uh, Well, I was I was amazed. Uh, but I was. The thing I was really [00:47:00] intrigued by was the creation of gay liberation. Now, in the early days, gay liberation was reasonably well established in Christchurch by the time I got here in 1973 and because of my involvement in the Law Reform Society, which was in favour of law reform and would have accepted any move in the right direction. But the Gay Liberation Front from the start was repeal the [00:47:30] equality in the law. Nothing else. Now, in those early days, I'm talking, you know, seven early seventies I took the view of the Homosexual Law Reform Society and decided that anything in the right direction would be worth it. By the end of the campaign, I was absolutely in favour of the deliberation position. I mean, I had been I thought it through and saw how things had developed. And I was bitterly disappointed [00:48:00] that I was thrilled that we got the same age of consent as for heterosexuals. I thought it was brilliant because previous to that we were talking about, you know, 21 and 18 and so on, and that was somehow a bargaining point. But if we could get 21 we would later be able to adjust. No gay Liberation said no repeal and nothing else. So that was good. And of course, I was disappointed that the human rights bits were dropped in 85 86. Um, so [00:48:30] I was involved again later in 92 93 when we took that up and won the case there, too. Can you describe the difference and makeup of the Homosexual Law Reform Society as opposed to the people in gay liberation Homosexual law? Reform Society had a lot of of, um, heterosexuals. Um, the the society went for people, prominent public people who had, you know, great mana in New Zealand society, uh, professors [00:49:00] and archbishops and you know, people of that sort, whereas gay liberation was almost was either very much younger men or occasionally had older men who were a bit eccentric. But, you know, the contrast was quite different law from society populated by gay men. But by and large, very respectable professional gay men with a bit of status and that sort [00:49:30] of thing. And gay liberation was, um a lot of us who were quite different with some amazing characters, a lot of very attractive young men, and and the older men were entertaining, eccentric, but entertaining. So would you get many people that were in both organisations because it's probably the only one? No, there must have been more, But but certainly because of that basic [00:50:00] difference of opinion, people who come and, you know, I got in early before gay liberation was putting its ideas. And about that time, you know, wolfenden report, um, homosexual law reform in Britain all very stayed. I mean, in Britain, it was 21 and you had to be in private. And if there was a third person present, you weren't in private and all that sort of thing, you know? But gay liberation just said Nope. [00:50:30] Equality before the law and gay liberation. Where did that come from? Uh, well, the key person here, as far as I was concerned, was Robin Duff, who, you know, may or may not be known to you. He's still very active in the gay scene and in teacher politics. Um, he ran it here. Uh, I edited the magazine for a while. I It was called, um, and [00:51:00] people from gay liberation became the key part, Uh, key people in, um, in the homosexual law reform group, the Christchurch Gay Task Force. I think it was called not necessarily the same people. Uh, for example, I don't remember Robin taking a a large public part in the law reform movement. I'm sure he did a lot of work behind the scenes, [00:51:30] but, uh, I became part of the of the little group that was really running the law reform campaign in Christchurch. I think I was called the legislative coordinator. I was expected to keep track of all these minor amendments that are being proposed and kicking them around and feeding back to Fran and Co Bill Logan. Fran, Whatever. Whoever, Uh, you know what Christchurch thought about this or that. And we had strong associations then, too. With [00:52:00] hug heterosexuals. Unafraid of gays. Uh, great movement. A lot of nice people in that some people in that that I thought could have possibly been in Gay Liberation Front. But never mind. In those early years in the early seventies, how many people were involved in those organisations? How big were they? I suppose the Gay Liberation Front, which [00:52:30] I joined in, I don't know. 1974 75. Something like that. Um well, an average an average meeting, a weekly meeting, perhaps 20 people. If there was a special function on it might have been 30. The dancers, Gus Gay University students. I think it was the Gus dancers at Ireland were quite big because they they got a certain number of young, straight people and, of course, more women than [00:53:00] were involved in the law reform. There were some good women involved in law reform. Um, and just yes, just more people. Generally, people who wouldn't get involved politically would go to the dancers. And what about the wider gay community? The people that weren't involved in gay liberation and the homosexual Law Reform Society? What did they make of the idea of changing the law? Was it something they wanted? Or was [00:53:30] it? I think they were quite pleased when it happened, but they certainly didn't want it, nor did they think it was necessary. And they certainly weren't going to become politically active or identified publicly. Um, they preferred. I've got to say about prejudice. They preferred to continue their piss. Elegant socialising. Yeah, because it was quite I mean, we were all aware of it. There was quite a, uh, a social [00:54:00] stratum of of, uh, of wealthier, older, gay people in Christchurch who certainly we're not going to be identified with homosexual law reform. Um, and there were others who just were politically motivated but who weren't opposed and and so forth. And the and some God help us. Who Who, uh, you know, to cover the fact that they were gay were actually [00:54:30] toting the petition around. I've been asked to distribute this at work, and if I don't, people will think I'm gay, which I am, but I don't want them to know. Sad but true. My only part with the petition, which I'm sure I can't be prosecuted for now. I did steal a few pages from the art church porch if I found a petition in a church porch with lots of signatures on it, I [00:55:00] on two occasions quietly removed it. And this is the petition that was in the Was it 90 85 85 against the law? I mean, I found you know, the fact that DB lager and M Mouse had also signed the petition. I thought that was a real hoot. Uh, I was, uh I was very angry that groups such as the Salvation Army were toting around old people's homes. I was angry [00:55:30] that it was distributed at some Catholic schools. Um, but anyway, yeah, that's all in the past, and the petition was pretty, pretty easily sort of discredited. So that was one kind of anti reform action. I'm wondering, in the early days in the seventies, what were some of the actions that were happening in Christchurch that you were involved in to actually promote law reform or or liberation in the seventies? [00:56:00] Um, not a lot. Uh, that really came to a head sort of 85 86. Um, you know, the well, the deliberation meetings. Um, we were available as speakers for anyone who is interested. But again, that didn't really become a major focus of service group interests. Until law reform really started to be debated 85 deliberation [00:56:30] was was mainly social, really but social for people who were prepared to be politically active. So was it hard to, uh, keep the energy up over over the space of, like, at least 10 years? Really? Did people think that law reform would ever happen? Uh, I think most of us thought it would eventually, [00:57:00] You know, By then things were starting to shift. There was the UK reform, which was not what we wanted subsequent, but anyway, and one or two Australian states had changed. There was a lot of debate in the United States. Some European states, such as Holland in particular, had moved in that direction. And they were all not just, you know, Holland in particular, not dissimilar from New Zealand. A lot of Dutch people out there, you know. And [00:57:30] so the fact that Holland had moved quite radically, uh, made a difference here. I think I think we thought that it would eventually happen. So I'm wondering, did you notice a change in public attitudes towards homosexuality? You've got your gay liberation starting up. You've got the homosexual law Reform Society. Was there a change going on? I think the change was going on. I think that's [00:58:00] represented by the fact that, um that I was out at work in a major public institution. David and I both worked at Christchurch Technical Institute. It was, as it was then known, we were known as A as a couple. Uh, we were invited to social functions, work related social functions together. Uh, we had a couple of lesbian friends who, you know, we tended to pair up with and go to such things with, um but that [00:58:30] I don't know that the experience of someone on the factory floor would have been the same as that, if you know what I mean. Or someone who was who was interested in rugby rather than religion. Uh, and you know who, um was confronted with sort of locker room prejudice and and that sort of thing, um, I. I never experienced any difficulty like that. The only thing I would say is that when when [00:59:00] David became profoundly ill with motor neurone disease totally unrelated to being gay, um, there was a rumour went around polite that he had AIDS, and that was promptly scotched by our employer and by the Union but nevertheless, it was just sort of her hard around. Oh, David Pinene David Pine. But David Pyne's dying. He must have [00:59:30] AIDS. It was assumed that any gay man who was terminally ill must have AIDS. Does this matter? It was soon dealt with but dealt with by really sympathetic union and and employer. And indeed, I don't know whether it fits into this part of it. But it does in my mind. Um, uh, my employer gave me eight months leave on pay with a company car to nurse David. [01:00:00] Now, I had years of leave accumulated, so that wasn't an issue. David and I had worked there for many, many years, but nevertheless and they applied, they applied a clause in the in the contract that allowed leave for family reasons. Now it was intended to cover your child having flu and having to stay home, not eight months to nurse a gay partner. [01:00:30] And I thought that was pretty good. It's interesting you're getting that acceptance, but I guess in the same breath, we're looking at you getting charged in 1979. So obviously society wasn't all at the same speed, and indeed the police I think I may have mentioned, but the police said, you know, what do your employers make of this? Which I said my employers? No, I'm OK. [01:01:00] And subsequently John agreed to write me a character reference. My call was going to be to the chair of the politic council. I mean, you know, Yes, you're quite right. That's what I was saying. Um, I didn't think of the police in particular, but, you know, the factory floor. I really don't know what it was like for people in other in other circumstances. Uh, yeah, we had we had really good liberal leadership at Christchurch Polytechnic. It was then called [01:01:30] Christchurch Technical Institute, but yeah. So the first real big pushes towards homosexual law reform. When did that start kicking in in Christchurch? Yeah. Individuals had been involved in the in the earlier attempts, and I I was a bit disgusted when I learned that some combination of the left wing had had managed [01:02:00] to scupper. I think it was particularly the freer attempt. Um, I didn't like that even though, as I admitted, I come round to the gay liberation. I think they were right. But I didn't like it at the time, but it really just it was once Fran Wilde. You know, the once the labour government went in and wild, uh, agreed to, uh, to support the law reform, that made a difference. One thing that I don't think people are are terribly aware of outside the law Reform Society [01:02:30] committee was that, um, and Sullivan offered to to promote a, uh, homosexual law reform initiative and bearing in mind that by the time of her death, she was a born again Christian and signing everything she possibly and opposing everything of that sort. It was quite extraordinary. Um, I don't know how far down the track [01:03:00] it got, but I was aware it was probably while I was in Wellington. So somewhere early seventies that that she was she was, um, uh, willing to to take that initiative. Well, one thing we haven't talked about is, um, the investment of energy from women in the whole law reform. And I was wondering if you had any thoughts on on that, um, women in Christchurch. There was [01:03:30] There were some good people who worked hard. Uh, but by and large, it was seen as a male issue. Um, I mean, the women were naturally horrified. One of the arguments was when we started saying, You know, we want equality with with women. Lesbian acts are not a crime male. Homosexual acts should not be a crime. Some of the opponents said, Well, that's easily resolved. It's not that we'll decriminalise men. We'll criminalise [01:04:00] women. So, you know, it was it was a bit a bit tricky. Um, but women were heavily involved in the campaign for human Rights in 92 93. So not all that long. Later, Uh, I'm not conscious. None of, uh, some good women, of course, Fran leading the whole thing. But there were some good women, but they weren't, uh, at at the at the organisational level in Christchurch, which is actually quite [01:04:30] different from Wellington. I think there was a lot of women's energy in in the Wellington area. Yeah, and if you interviewed someone else, they may remember differently. Um, there were a few women in hug and and David and we had personal support from the lesbian friends that I was talking about. But they weren't they they weren't out the front. So what kind of actions were being undertaken in Christchurch to promote law reform. [01:05:00] Well, for my part, um, endless speaking to church groups and service clubs, and I've still got notes and records of the places I spoke to, J CS and so forth. Two or three of us would go. We we agreed to We had quite a little team, perhaps six of us who could go out and peers or twos or threes. Uh, so we did a lot of that, uh, David and I, uh, were interviewed by the [01:05:30] star and appeared in a item which I got over there a big publication, Uh, that was published in the Star. Um, what it's like to be gay. It was a bit of publicity, um, endless endless meetings about strategy one or two marches, though they weren't hugely subscribed. And we certainly suffered a bit of abuse as we marched down Manchester Street. Um, [01:06:00] And letter writing, letter, writing, letter writing, um, keeping track of which MP S were dickering. Which MP S were opposed. Um, and disrupting opponents meetings? Um, stuff like that. It was all on. It was very heavy stuff. So what was it like? Uh, going to a church group and going to their meeting and talking to them about homosexuality. [01:06:30] That was OK. Uh, because by and large, you were invited to a church by someone who was sympathetic to your cause. Now, that didn't mean the whole group was sympathetic to your cause, but the invitation to come from someone, So you got a bit of negative questioning, Uh, and you got the occasional person who got up and walked out? Um, but it was OK. And the person I could think of in particular that I went around with, uh, [01:07:00] he and I both had all the Bible stuff at our fingertips. Um, you know, it got a bit sort of silly and repetitive. Of course, the group you're speaking to doesn't know that you did the same thing the night before to another group, Um, pretty good sort of response we did. We did go to one Catholic based meeting where a woman who was a pharmacist had an obsession obsession about anal [01:07:30] sex and went on and on about us. But eventually the person who was facilitating the meeting sort of shut it down. She wasn't, um She wasn't being aggressively nasty, but I mean what she was saying, like anyway, so and, of course, Catholic church meetings. You see, by then we're talking AIDS, and we're talking condoms and [01:08:00] so forth. So that was there was this assumption that all we all we do is screw anyway. And what about other, uh, meetings? I mean, did you did you go and talk to anti reform meetings? Did you didn't talk to David was addressing one at a high school hall and my friend Charles and I were [01:08:30] determined to get in there and ask for equal time. And it sort of developed that they are going to call the police and have us removed. And David came out and persuaded us that it was better all round if we just quietly withdrew. So we abandoned that one, I think, actually, no. On another occasion, the police were called and we were escorted off the premises, but we didn't resist. I [01:09:00] mean, I wasn't in and, you know, throwing myself on the ground and making them like me away. But there was one at high school where, you know, it really got out of hand. That was one where we were demanding equal time and I had all my notes ready to to tell them the facts of life about Christianity in the Bible. Anyway, um, but we ended up there just shouting, abuse, equal time and and every time they tried to address the congregation [01:09:30] audience, we just shouted them down. Uh, and eventually the police came and removed us. How many pro reform people would have been with you doing something like that? A big meeting. That'd probably be 20 of us. Roughly. Did you find it scary standing up in a, um, in a meeting, that's kind of really anti anti U. So by then, you know, I'd [01:10:00] had a number of years of being out an out homosexual. I knew that they were wrong. A I can say, but I knew they were wrong. And I never feared for my safety at those meetings. I did, perhaps in one of the marches, but, um and I just felt it It was a bit embarrassing when I spotted I was registrar at the time. And so I was, uh, a registrar at the polite at the time. So I was with the [01:10:30] administrative manager, the line manager of all the non teaching staff. And it was a bit disconcerting to see one of my employees or one of my line of management at the meeting, as a member of the audience and congregation. And I had someone circulated the petition at the Polytech and I saw it. I didn't try to remove it, but I saw it and I saw that one person in particular Nice woman [01:11:00] who socialised quite a lot with David and me had signed it. And I said to Roberta, What the hell is this about? You know, you know David and me, you like us. We socialise together. I didn't realise she felt like this about it. He said, Honour, You and David are wonderful. It's all the rest. But I subsequently discovered that she was the same about Maori. So every gay person she had met was lovely and all the rest were bastards. [01:11:30] What sort of thinking is that? But there are. That was what happened in the street marches you were saying they were quite intense. Yeah, yeah, they were because you didn't get a lot of people to them. And I think there were only one or two, but coming down Manchester Street. You know, you got stuff thrown at you and abuse hurled at you and so forth, but survived [01:12:00] my experience of marches and and opposition and police, uh, was in 85 86 was nothing compared with what it had been in 1981 over the Springbok tour. I mean, there you really did feel endangered. And also, I was far more rad. I behaved more radically then. I mean, you know, I was party to lying down at intersections and all that sort of [01:12:30] thing. Do you think if it hadn't been for something like the Springbok Tour, we would have got, uh, the kind of, uh, protests that we did in law reform? Do you Do you think that it was just, uh the the the continuation of a change? Well, I wondered about that, and I thought, Oh, you know, this was our generation. We were the protesters. But then you see, uh, you know, the you you You see film footage of of, [01:13:00] um, waterfront workers during the strike. And really, what we did and survived was nothing compared with what early union movement people had put up with. Did you ever think that the homosexual law reform in 85 86 would not go through would Oh, I thought. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, it was touch and go to the night fast. And if it hadn't been again, it was George George [01:13:30] Gear, I think. Yes, I think you're right. Yeah. I think George Gere changed sides. Uh, I thought it was lost by a vote or two, so I mean, it was real jubilation. I mean, I thought we'd come back to it as indeed we eventually did on the human rights issues, but, uh, but, you know, we'd all we'd put time and money and time and money in political sweat into into the 85 86 campaign. Uh, I was very [01:14:00] proud when it went through because, you know, it was relatively radical in terms of common age of consent and such a low age of consent. Uh, that was remarkable in the western world. Really? So I was very proud of that, too. I sort of felt once again, New Zealand was leading the way in in social reform, and it's quite interesting because on one hand you've got the kind of political campaign. But on the other hand, you've also got the whole public campaign and getting people on side and saying, Well, actually, homosexuality [01:14:30] is not necessarily such a evil. Yeah, And although what was critical to law reform was the political campaign where we largely took our lead from Wellington, Um, but were invited to give feedback and so forth. So and we certainly did a lot of letter writing and campaigning among local MP S to make sure they were on the right side and to try and convert them if they weren't. But for for me, the public campaign was far more important. Really. [01:15:00] That to me was the real victory. Um, and the fact that by and large, particularly once, particularly once the human rights changes have been made because once they once they'd been made. I mean, you really you really had a defence. If your employer got snotty with you and that happened in, was it 1992 passed in 93? The campaign was sort of 92 93. [01:15:30] So the homosexual law reform bill passed part. One of it passed part two didn't in 86. Can you recall the night that it passed and what we do, Uh, I just socialising quietly. I wasn't in any of the big DOS listening to the radio. Uh, yeah, radio. Not, I suppose it was broadcast in parliament. Um, [01:16:00] breaking out the champagne, Uh, and yeah, not at that point thinking, Oh, we've still got the other bit to deal with. But because really, for me, the I was interested in law formula in human rights. But that was decriminalisation, that I had, uh, as the major goal at that at that point and afterwards, just a general feeling that that's that we've we've won. That's [01:16:30] that's good. New Zealand is now up there with the more enlightened Western countries, and, uh, this will make a lot of difference to generations to come. I do. But I think I've eventually occasionally I feel a bit sad to sure unionists feel the same way that that, uh, that the younger generation doesn't really appreciate what the fight was like for their freedom. [01:17:00] Uh, I mean, I don't really think that, but I'm just glad that they've got the freedom. But even now I think Oh, you know. But it's the same with everything really, isn't it? So for you? Did the law reform change the way you lived your life? No, not really. Um, because although there had been that experience in 79 and, you know, odd cases before and after that, really, [01:17:30] by 85. 86 uh, the police had stopped their activity at least as far as I know. They had stopped their activity. And certainly by then, if there was violence in the park, for example, they would they would pursue that and prosecute robustly prosecute um, the perpetrators. [01:18:00] So things had started to shift during the, um, at one stage, I was on a police gay community, um, cooperative group that met from time to time and raised questions. I remember the main question we we raised was with them. Um, was the whole question of [01:18:30] violence or domestic violence with same sex couples, men and women, which there must have been something that triggered it. But that was a bit of an issue at the time. And we wanted to make sure that you know that they understood that that same sex relationships had the same dynamics and so on as as straight ones. And that you know that they had an obligation to to investigate those and support the the victim and all that sort of thing. [01:19:00] So when you think now about kind of the younger generation and you see them with, uh, equality in a lot of areas, maybe not in all areas. Do you have any reflections on? Yeah, I'm just I'm just glad that the law changed and that I was part of changing it. Basically, uh, both bits of the law, By the way. I mean both the the decriminalisation and the human [01:19:30] rights, because the human rights, in practical terms, frankly, the human rights legislation is more important than the law reform than the decriminalising for the ordinary person day by day, you know, But I, I now occasionally the politic that a student who says I'm gay as far as I know, I'm the only gay in my class, and my tutor makes anti gay remarks, and I expect and I expect CPR [01:20:00] T to do something about that. And I say we certainly will, you know, and got a section on sexual orientation written into the harassment policy, that sort of thing. There was that guy, the fact that he can sleep with his boyfriend doesn't actually, I call it much difference. He probably slept with his boyfriend even if the law hadn't changed, but in class or at the institution or out in the bakery or whatever [01:20:30] makes a difference, hm.

IRN: 501
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/qwu_david_inglis.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003902
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089196
TITLE: David Inglis - Queen of the Whole Universe
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: David Inglis
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2000s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; David Inglis; Queen of the Whole Universe; drag; performance; theatre
DATE: 29 April 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast David talks about being part of the Queen of the Whole Universe beauty pageant.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So, what was your first involvement with the pageant? Uh, I actually had a friend around and, uh, to my place, and he was involved in the show. It was in the early stages. And, um he indicated that he was in this thing that was going to be happening at the Sky City Theatre. And I got really excited about that being a thespian from way back and not having done anything for a very long time. And, um, I went along, and it was just what I wanted was perfect [00:00:30] at that point. Was this as an audience member or No, At that point, it was a cast member, and, uh, the concept was, um, about a beauty pageant. So they were getting together a whole lot of guys that were going to be drag queens. And at that stage in in 2004, probably the bulk of us had not ever put on a frock before. So there was this really raw, um, energy that was wanting to [00:01:00] come through, and I think he succeeded. Um, of course, now, you know, nine years down the track, we've done it every year. It's not so raw um, it's just as much fun, but not so raw. So can you take me back to those first rehearsals for that first pageant? What? What were they like? Oh, Lord 2004, That's stretching the memory. The were, uh, exciting. Um, we were really fortunate to be able to have the Sky City Theatre for nearly every rehearsal, which is really unusual in theatre. [00:01:30] And it was wonderful being back in a theatre for myself and probably, I don't know, maybe a dozen other people that had worked in shows before. To be working in theatre again was fantastic. And for those that had never done anything on stage, it was really exciting. And their excitement rubbed off on us. It was wonderful. Um, I actually don't think it's ever been regained. That same level of excitement, how many [00:02:00] participants were there? 40 maybe. I don't know. Do do you know if it was easy to get participants for the for that first pageant that I don't know, either. Jonathan's never talked about that. Um, certainly, at the first initial reading, there was seemed to be quite a bit of interest. Um, and I gather that as the years have gone on and it's been as successful as it has been. Interest has has increased. Um, so, no, I don't [00:02:30] know whether it was difficult or not. From my point of view, it wasn't because I wasn't gathering anybody in. I was just one of the worker bees. So that first pageant, what was it like on stage just before the curtain went up? Oh, everything that you could imagine it to be. Um, you were full of adrenaline. You were full of excitement. And I think what surprised us as a group most was the audience buy in even [00:03:00] before they'd seen the first show. And the the level of excitement from an audience was was just amazing. And we just fed off that for the for the rest of the show. But as the curtain went up, you could feel it. And it was quite extraordinary, actually. So were there any highlights from that first pageant for you? No. Nothing stood out as a highlight. Um, it was wonderful to be in the theatre again. [00:03:30] And the the camaraderie that was, um, that has come out of it at that Over a period of four or five years has been a highlight. But at that time no one knew what was gonna happen. So, no, I couldn't say that there was a particular highlight on the evening or in that first show. Hm. It was more of a It's It's what's happened after. There must have been something in that first show to [00:04:00] make both participants and audiences want to come back a second time. What? What was it for you that you wanted to come back? Oh, what was it for me? It was the applause from the audience. It was working in a theatre. It was the smell of the grease paint. Um, it was, um, working in a show that was, um, really friendly. And, uh, and on another side, working with gays and lesbians, um, in a really friendly, [00:04:30] safe environment where there was that didn't seem or appear to be at that stage. And I guess there there still isn't now. But there wasn't any, um, bitchiness or, um, backstabbing or it was just a really friendly place to be. Um, I really enjoyed that. How do you think that environment was set up was developed that I couldn't say, just from the it was. Maybe it was good. More good luck than good measure. Um, perhaps it was just the different personalities [00:05:00] that were there. Um, maybe we were guided by, um, a strong artistic team in the in Jonathan and Kevin and, um, our backstage crew I. I really don't know. So So the artistic team, Um, Kevin and and Jonathan how do they work? Basically, they bring in, um, choreographers. And they, um, Jonathan is more of an artistic director, and, um, Kevin is his support. And over the years, um, has become more and more of a support. [00:05:30] Um, but, see, we don't know what goes on behind the scenes, so he may have been a driving force right from the very beginning, but from from the outside looking in, it's been Jonathan. And, um, yeah, he just has a really good team around him. He brings in experienced, um, staging crew, um, experienced, um, choreographers. And, um, on the night, of course, the theatre takes over. So you've got, you know, professional lighting and stage and tech crews. So [00:06:00] and I think that has it's It's It's professional. We are amateur. Um, we're amateur because we're not being paid, but I think it's done professionally. It's interesting, though, isn't it? That to participate, you don't need to have necessarily reached any level of singing or dancing? Absolutely not. No. And, um, in fact, even on the night, there are many levels of singing and dancing and lip syncing [00:06:30] and acting abilities on stage. It's not about that. It's not about, um, the quality of the performances that you are willing to participate and perform. Its main role was a fundraiser for the New Zealand AIDS Foundation in the very beginning, so it had a very altruistic, um, buy in by the participants and in fact, probably the audience. Um, that has since moved as it's become a little bit more professional. Um, QWU [00:07:00] has become a trust, and they now give to 33 or four charities. Three, I think, um, all in the gay and lesbian community and AIDS or HIV related. But in the early stages it was a New Zealand AIDS Foundation charitable event, and that could have been, um, the cause for the buy in for both the audience and the cast. Why did you Why did you get involved Oh, I wanted to go back on stage. [00:07:30] Really selfish. I know. And and, um, when I was there, it became obvious to me that it was going to cost, um, financially and Timewise. And so I then sort of thought about why I was doing it, and yeah, it was basically, it's the only It's the only charitable work I do all year. I don't give to many charities. Um, and this seemed a really good way of giving back, so it was a win win for everybody. [00:08:00] Um, I got what I wanted out of it. I got a show, and yeah, and I was giving something back to the community. You mentioned cost. Can Can you talk about the cost? Both kind of financially and and and time wise? Well, financially, there is the cost of getting your own costume together. Um, Jonathan provides makeup and provides makeup artists. Um, which is really handy for most people that have never done it before. But [00:08:30] we have to provide the costuming and, um, and the time, um, you know, 23 days a week, um, petrol to get there. Um, there. There's there's ancillary costs as well, But predominantly, it's your costuming. And how much on an average would a costume cost? Well, that would depend on how elaborate you want to go. Um, when I was an Act two girl, uh, I spent probably two grand on the outfit, [00:09:00] um, one year, and that was that's probably at the high end of spending. But it's, um Yeah, that would for me anyway, that would be at the high end of spending. In which country were you? Uh, that particular country was Greece. And how did you How did you portray Greece? Um, by bringing on a lot of anonymous stories. Don't laugh. Uh, Kevin and Jonathan really enjoyed it. Um, it didn't win, and that's that's absolutely fine. But it wasn't about [00:09:30] the winning. It was about, um, getting people involved. And the for me. Um, my my support crew were from act one. they were members of the of the team. Anyway, I've never subscribed to the idea of bringing in professionals because I didn't think that that's what it was about. I really enjoyed bringing in, um, other other crew members and team members that I've worked with in act one. the headdress that I created was the, uh and unfortunately, [00:10:00] the guy that made it for me was not a costume maker. He was a set designer, so he built it. It was actually made out of wood. Um, very, very heavy. And yeah, um, anyhow, it it looked fabulous and was worth every cent that I paid for it. Um, I've still got it. And I may resurrect it for the next show. And you actually wore it. Oh, I did wear it. Yes, it actually fitted onto my head. I did need a sponge, and I couldn't wear it for more than about 10 minutes. [00:10:30] And you're laughing. It's true. I had a headache afterwards. It was very, very heavy, but worked. And And then I went on, and the act two piece was, um, set in a, um so I had the smashing of the plates really stereotypically grease. And then, of course, the act two piece was, um, you know, went through from the Olympics because I needed some naked bodies on stage because it always goes down well and then straight through to Nana. And you were saying Greece didn't win that year? No, no, not at all [00:11:00] it came forth. Having said that, there were only four participants. Act two is a true competition. Um, Act one is not. But that's because of the logistics. The Act two girls need to know that they are going through to Act two. Because of the rehearsal and the costuming and the staging. However, Act two is a competition, and there is a group of about five or six, judges in the audience, and they are looking for specific criteria. So, yeah, no one knows who's going to win. And [00:11:30] in fact, a couple of years we've all been waiting backstage and it's been a bit of a surprise for people. So yeah, and it's not always the audience favourite. So how does that feel? How does that feel? What a leading. How does that feel? Um, to lose or you don't really lose it. You haven't won. Um, you've actually you still participated in the show and you've had a really good time doing it, and you've enjoyed doing it, so I actually don't see it as losing. I see [00:12:00] it as, um as coming forth and not winning. If that makes any sense, it it wasn't about losing? Definitely not. Um, the the feeling of, um of just participating was enough. Yeah, to know that I'd participated. So had you done had you done kind of drag performance before? No. No, I hadn't, um, prior to 2004, I [00:12:30] had, uh I had done drag for a charitable event. Um, in the Blue Mountains. Um, and I lasted for about an hour. At the time, my partner was a drag queen, and I was not. And he did. They care me into dressing for the for this function. It didn't last very well. It was a strange feeling, Um, and one that I never repeated again. So, no, I would have to say no. Um, [00:13:00] but I don't look at this as drag. You see, I look at it as theatre, and the costume that I'm putting on happens to be as a woman, but I still don't look at it as drag for me. It's very much a theatre piece, a show, so it's costume and makeup. So what would your definition of drag be? A drag would be dressing up as a woman and going out on the town, um or performing in a bar or um, performing, [00:13:30] uh, outside of the stage environment outside of a show environment. Um, since 2004, I have done a couple of shows, um, down at the Wellington, uh, gardens festival. I was asked down there a couple of times and, um, also with, um, another friend from this show. We were invited to do a piece at the big day out, um, in drag. And that was very much [00:14:00] a drag performance. I guess it blurs. And I myself, for the outside person, it's drag for myself. I have a very set boundary, and that is when I'm in the theatre. It's a show. Um, and when it's outside of the theatre, it's drag. So for the pageant, have you done any other roles? Uh, yes, I have. I've been, um, an act one girl for the first year, Uh, an Act [00:14:30] two girl for the next two years. Uh, then I went into the audience for the 3rd 4th year, and then I came back as a boy and just did the boy's role. And then the next year, I came back and I was a boy and supported an act two girl and that went down to Wellington. And, um, the next performance, I'm going to be an act one girl supporting an Act two girl. So the only thing I haven't done would be crew. [00:15:00] And the difference between the parts of the boys and the girls are very little makeup. Maybe, um, the boys have become bigger and bigger as the years have gone on. I think the first show had two, and they were basically there, uh, just to move the girls around stage. Maybe it was an a requirement at the time, Um, not letting the girls fall off the stage when they had their head dress on. But the boys have become a part of the show. And in [00:15:30] the last, I think the most he's had was 10. Um, they have their own routines, and while they still are quite instrumental in getting the girls around on the catwalk, um, they are They are also a part of the show in their own right. Can you take me through the process of transforming from you and your everyday life to being, uh, one of the the girls in as representing a country? No, I can't because I don't have any transitional period. [00:16:00] Um, it's a it's a part that I'm playing. Um, I create a character as any, um, as any person on stage would. And when I go to rehearsal, I learn the steps and I learn the choreography. I learn the show, and then I go to the show and I'm that person. I'm that character for the evening. So there isn't really a transitional period that's any different from working in any theatre. So you're saying that as soon as you get to the theatre, you switch into this role pretty much, [00:16:30] Yes. That afternoon. Um, you you sort of build up to that character and know how you're going to behave. And then when you get to the theatre, you you put the costuming and the makeup on. Um and you are that person for that two hours, three hours. Um, and then at the end of the show, you take it all off and you become David again. So the character that you go into is that created by yourself? Yes, it is. Yes. Um, [00:17:00] all of our all of our characters are created by ourselves. Jonathan's pretty lenient with that. He gives us direction if we need it, and but pretty much gives us enough rope to hang ourselves as well. Um, he he does keep a pretty tight rein on what's going on on the show. He needs to, um he has sponsors to consider, and he has a paying audience to consider, so he can't let anything go out That isn't up to standard. Um, we charge, you know, we're not. We charge for tickets, so we've got [00:17:30] to have a professional, uh, product. But we have as actors, we have pretty much, um, as much as we want in the development of our character. What have been your character's names? Oh, well, Miss Brunei, um, can't remember. That was 2004, uh, Italy. Hm. No idea. Um, my gosh, uh, Greece was Olympia Stadium, and then [00:18:00] the boys were, um yeah, have no, I can't remember because I tend to forget one show after it's finished, because it's done and dusted, and I finished looking at the whole process. What is the highlight for you? Where where does that come of the process of a of a show of a particular show? The highlight would be the the night. The performance? Absolutely. It's all about the performance. [00:18:30] Um, the highlight of the last nine years have been the people and the meeting of of some amazing, truly amazing and wonderful people. I would have to say the camaraderie and the friendships that I've made simply by being involved in the show have far out shown any any, um, euphoria from being in the show. Have you been involved with any other, uh, lesbian gay queer groups that [00:19:00] have had that kind of camaraderie? No, I haven't. Actually, I've been only involved in a couple of sporting groups and yeah, we've become We know that the friendships involved that have been made over this show have have gone beyond the show and outlasted the show. And because the show is only on once a year, that's a very short period of time that we're all together. But the friendships that you make have lasted longer, and you're seeing [00:19:30] people throughout the year. So, no, I would have to say it's quite unique. Um, for me, Anyway, in that area, I wonder why that is. Um that I don't know. It could be that it's such a short season that it's a a two month period and a one night show that people are more probable, Uh, probably likely to want to see you longer. I don't know. Um, whereas when you're in a [00:20:00] in a sporting group, um, you're seeing each other every week. So maybe there isn't that need to form a relationship. I don't know. Can you take me through the rehearsal process? How? How does it actually all kind of come together? The rehearsal process? Um, we meet as a group. Um, we are introduced to the music. Uh, we introduced to the choreographers, and the choreographers have, um, obviously already planned what they're going to do for us. [00:20:30] They then, uh, teach us the steps, and it comes together that way. Um, no different from any other show. Really? Um, the Yeah, and then you just rehearse. You rehearse the steps and rehearse the, um, the vision that Jonathan's got for the show. Um, a couple of things that aren't that aren't danced but are choreographed would be the, um, the catwalk, um, [00:21:00] and other other areas where there's more than one person on stage. Um, so, yeah, the act that That's the Act one. And for the bulk of the show, the act twos are are quite separate and are all individual pieces. And so, if you're involved within an act two, then you do your own rehearsing, and you you write your own script, you source your own music. You, um, create your own costuming and create your own design [00:21:30] and set. Gather together your own cast. Put together your own little show. You're actually putting together a five or six minute peace or show in its entirety. You then when you move into the theatre, uh, liaise with the theatre company, um, with regard to lighting and stage management and then on the night it all comes together. Hopefully, have there been things that have gone wrong? Yeah, [00:22:00] yeah, they have the, um yes, I guess. I guess it must be very hard for a whole group of people to turn up to the theatre a couple of days beforehand and only have a couple of days before one performance. Yes, it would be, um, typically, you've rehearsed it on the same sized, uh, area as the staging. Uh, we've been really lucky and really fortunate with having [00:22:30] the same theatre now for the last, you know, 56 performances. And, um so we know the theatre. And, um, the cast know the crew. The crew know the cast, so it's not as difficult as you might think. Um, going to Wellington was difficult. We'd never, ever seen those two theatres before. And but But at the same time that they are professional, the the the the stage crew and the lighting and the they all work the same way [00:23:00] they they're all professionals. And so they know what to do. Um, and we just have to move as we've rehearsed, so no, it's not that difficult. Really? No. No. Is that an exciting time when you once you move into a theatre? Oh, yes. Oh, very exciting. Um, the rehearsals are a bit mundane and a bit monotonous towards the end. Um, and yeah, moving into the theatre. It just adds a whole new level of energy and a whole new level of excitement. What about the audiences? [00:23:30] Have you noticed a difference between, say, like the Wellington audience and the Auckland audience? Oh, definitely. Wellington is, um is artistic Wellington audiences, um go to see a show any show. So our audiences down in Wellington, where Blue rinse little old ladies from Palmerston North that go to Wellington for every show that's on in Wellington, in Auckland, it's, um, a lot different in that it's more community [00:24:00] based audience. Yeah, a friends and family or, um, gay and lesbian or friends of gay and lesbian or friends of the AIDS Foundation. Uh, people that know about the show know about the cause and are going to support that, Um, whereas in Wellington they were just going to a show. So yeah, it was a very different audience in Wellington. Um, they saw it quite differently. And do you get that kind of feedback? Because I know at the end of the show, you go and mingle with the [00:24:30] public. We do go and mingle with the public. I however, um, take off my costume because I see it as a costume and my rule of thumb working in theatre was you never walk past the proscenium arch in costumes, so my makeup and costume comes off. So I'm often not recognised more often than not not recognised as part of the show. So it's quite interesting. Um, walking amongst the, um audience and not being recognised, which is fantastic. Um, whereas [00:25:00] the girls, they want to stay in costume and come out, and that's fine, you know, for what it is. Um, it's not what I was brought up to do, but and and the audience is, um, most of them stay. There's always an after show function. Um, most stay And, um, yeah, it's a really good vibe. It's just a really good vibe. What kind of comments do you hear as being in kind of in cognitive and and actually that it's quite professionally done. And, um, for [00:25:30] those that have been there for the first time, they were really surprised at how professional it was. So whether they were going expecting an amateur, um, production, Um, I don't know. I don't know what they were expecting. However, I think expectations were, uh, exceeded in most cases. From what I've heard, and you've also spent a year sitting in the audience, I have that was actually really exciting, and we got to the theatre and the buzz [00:26:00] in the audience was electric. And it's not one that you feel from backstage until the curtain goes up. So to go to the bar and sit with everyone. And there were people that hadn't seen each other for a whole year that were coming to the show again and again that were meeting up again 12 months later. And they it was It was unbelievably exciting, actually, to be in the audience, and and the buzz before the curtain went up was, um, phenomenal. And [00:26:30] I really think that everyone that's in the show should have actually been in the audience at one point. Hm. It was really different. It was not what I expected from A from a normal show. It's not. It wasn't the the normal buzz of a theatre foyer. So we're coming up to the 10th and final Show. What are your thoughts on that? Jonathan has, um, two catchphrases. One is no surprises on the night, and the other is It's [00:27:00] always fluid now. It wouldn't surprise me if this is not the last performance. He has indicated that it's the last performance in this format. What that means, only he knows. And yeah, I. I would hate to think that we were going to disband completely, Um, because it's it does need to change. Things. Need to grow. Things need to evolve. So maybe [00:27:30] he's got something else in mind. I. I have no idea. We're not privy to that yet. Um, at this stage, it's the last show. But he has said in this present format as a qualifier. So watch the space. Finally, I'm just wondering, if you had the opportunity to speak to all those people out there in the dark on on that last performance night, what would you Would you have any special message for them? No, thank you for supporting us. That's [00:28:00] it. Um, the The show itself hasn't changed in format over 10 performances. Um, since 2004, and yet we are still filling the the house. Um, So the support is either for us or for the charities that we are raising money for. And I would just have two words, and that would be Thank you.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089195
TITLE: Ed Jenner
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VOICES: Ed Jenner
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: Auckland; Ed Jenner; Queen of the Whole Universe; drag; performance; theatre
DATE: 26 February 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Ed talks about performing in the Queen of the Whole Universe beauty pageant - from the first show in 2004 to the finale in 2012.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: It's just grown. I mean, it's a bit like Topsy, it's just grown. I mean, the first year we did it in 2004, I mean, nobody knew how it was gonna go. We performed at the Sky City, and it's an 800 seater. And we, um, sold out. I mean, we just didn't know And it was interesting for me. My straight friends, that came the husbands all came out of duress. But after the show, they all wanted to come come again and they've [00:00:30] they've supported all the way through. And, um, I mean, even so now I've just I've just sold 100 and five tickets for the show in July, So it's just Yeah, it's just amazing. And and, of course, the camaraderie and all this of meeting people and people that are not involved with it think Oh, it must be screaming queens and daggers and stilettos, you know, thrown at each other. But it's just the whole the whole band. Just [00:01:00] get on well, so well together. Can I take you back to that? That first pageant and I'm just wondering how how did you get involved in it? Well, I'm I used to do amateur dramatics, sort of musical theatre, and Jonathan and Kevin had seen me in a few things, and so they knew I could move. And they knew I could, um, hold a tune. Not that, of course, in the Queen of the Universe. We don't have to be able to do any of that. Um and so Jonathan [00:01:30] contacted me and said, We're doing This is the show we're doing. And, um, I want you to be a finalist because because everyone says it's fixed, but it's not fixed. I mean, we know who the finalists are, but on the night, it's actually a competition. And the work. I mean, I've been a finalist four times, I think, five times. And the work you have to put in because you have to source your music, put it all together five minutes, you have to choreograph it. You have to costume it all at your own [00:02:00] expense. So you then have to get sponsorship and all this sort of stuff. So, um so Jonathan just rang and said, um, this is what we're doing. Um, and he gave me three or four countries that I could be so I For some reason I don't know, I chose Miss Japan. So I was Miss Japan the first year I was Cherry Blossom Osaka. And it just as I say, it's just gone. Gone from there in that first year. Uh, how many [00:02:30] participants were there? Probably with because the first year we only had two muscle boys. Um, whereas now I think we have about 10 or 12. Um, I think I think there was about 30 of us on stage. And of course, now it's 50 odd or something, I think. And of course, we've won. We We're in the Guinness Book of Records twice. I mean, Jonathan being Jonathan, contacted Guinness Book of Records and sort of said, You know, could can we [00:03:00] get make a record or whatever? And of course they have. You have to be so specific with the Guinness Book of Records. And so they helped Jonathan phrase what we were gonna do, and it was the most number of men in drag performing a choreographed piece that was longer than two minutes or something. Rather so we we beat a record that was done by a group in America, Of course, And then I think the following year we beat our own records, so but they don't count. [00:03:30] They don't count the girl. The real girls that are dressed, you know, doing the Victor Victoria thing. It has to be men in drag. So with that first production, did anyone in the cast have any idea of what it was going to be on the first night when you were in rehearsals? Um, we were very lucky that first year we had, um, Helen Medlin, the opera singer. She was our MC and I know Helen through [00:04:00] theatre and stuff. And it was interesting I when I because I was an Act two girl, and I had that we did all this music and I had this little bit of music that we wanted someone to sing to, and we'd made the words up and and I just contacted Helen and she said, Oh, yes, I could do that. She said, Play it over the phone, you know, and and do a little So anyway, so of course I gave. She came on on my in the programme as a supported by you [00:04:30] know, Helen Milan. So of course, when I gave it to Jonathan. Jonathan said Not not the Helen Milan. I said yes. So he contacted her and she was in between jobs that year. So she came along and did did the MC And she got the audience just so worked up and the choreographer Because most of the people in that first show had never been on stage, let alone in a frock or or anything. And the choreographer [00:05:00] got us in positions on a stage. And we all had a spotlight over the top of us. And, um, he said, You know, the reaction of the audience is gonna be that much that we won't have you moving to begin with. We'll sing. We were singing I am what I am So we set stood still and we sang I am what I am But she was in front of the curtain getting them all wound up and yahoo And it was amazing As the curtain went up, [00:05:30] You you were hit by the noise. It actually knocked you on your shoes. You swayed and, um, I I get emotional. I still isn't it. Um but you just knew that everybody was with you and they just loved it. And the more we went and then right at the end, you know, we we sort of do the opening number, sort of maybe at the end, as a finishing thing. And I mean, the audience were just wild. It was just. [00:06:00] And, as I say, all the husbands of my friends were all saying, Look, if if it's gonna be on next year, we want tickets. And, um, that's how it's been amazing the rehearsal period for that first show, You you were saying that a lot of people hadn't been on stage before. What was that like? What was, well, the the The great thing is that Jonathan says anyone can be in the show. Anyone you don't need any skills, [00:06:30] any talents, You just have to make the commitment to do every rehearsal, supply, a dress, a wig and some shoes, and that's all you have to do. But the guy Michael Sanders was is our choreographer. I mean, we have two or three now, but he was our first choreographer, and he he does a lot of amateur theatre, So I think he's used to having people that are not dancers and stuff but everybody, everybody helped one another. [00:07:00] I mean, I'm only in a little cottage, and one of the guys down the hill was was finding it really hard. And so he used to come to my place. And then, of course, when we were on at the theatre because when it was at Sky City, because it's black most of the time, I don't think they put shows on there. Now, um, we we were able to rehearse like the like last week at the theatre. And so, you know, you'd be taking people in the wings. I mean, everybody just helped, you know? Of course [00:07:30] there's the odd thing of someone not in the right spot. And you say, Oh, you know, you're not in the right spot and they go, Oh, you just want to be in the front and and you're saying, Well, no, you're lighting. You go. You got to remember there's a little X where you stand because you're lighting. Um, you know, you want to be seen. You know, I said, It's not that I want to be in front of you even though I said they'd be looking at me anyway. But no it was. And it's interesting because I think we had only [00:08:00] like eight rehearsals. And of course, most of the people said it wasn't enough. We needed to do more. Um, but I, you know, sit in front of them. I said, Yeah, but I I said, I don't mean it detrimental. But I said none of you. Even if we had eight months, you still wouldn't be able to pick it up. I said, And a lot of the energy is is just, you know, getting on and doing it, you know, um because because now I think we [00:08:30] I think we have about 16 rehearsals for the next one. So, uh but no, I mean because because it is a social thing as well. And of course, I because I've done shows and stuff, I want it to be good. And of course, they want it to be good. But of course, at rehearsals, I mean, they're all chatting away and don't really listen to what they're being told, and then they wonder why they can't do it. And but, no, it's just just it's just amazing how it's just grown, and it's just lovely. [00:09:00] Jonathan, the director what is his directing style like, um, he's very, very good. I mean, he doesn't He doesn't. I say he doesn't. I mean, of course, he loses his call now in the game, but most of the time, he doesn't. And he's very good at, um, you know, boosting people up. I mean, he seems to know when someone might be down or whatever. You know, they've had [00:09:30] a hard week or something or other, and he'll, um you know, booster them up and and say, Look, come on, you You can come to the front or da da da, da da. But, um and but he he is a perfectionist, and I mean, he probably would have everything written down. I mean, you get a schedule from him like the the the day of the show. I mean, it goes eight o'clock, this 8 12 this, and I mean, it goes all the, you know. I mean, he's just so [00:10:00] exact, which I think you've got to be when when you've got so many. And then, of course, now you know, 50 odd people on stage, plus all the backstage people and and of course, most of us have to do quick changes. So we all have dresses and all that. So there's huge amounts of people. So I mean, he's. But he's very good at that, you know? And I suppose that's why he runs his own little ment company. So he's very good at that. Right from the start of the pageant. The idea [00:10:30] of the contestants making their own, uh, dresses and headgear was Was that always the way? Yeah, Um, when we first did it one of the fabric shops here in Auckland. I can't think of the name, but they came on board as a sponsor and we were able to get X number of metres of certain fabrics, you know? So they just said You can have these fabrics and I tried to [00:11:00] find lots of my friends. So and I sew, but I'm no good at creating something without a pattern. And none of them said they couldn't. They couldn't do anything without a pattern. And then, you know, someone said, Oh, so and so and so and so. And Catherine, she runs the costume magic, and she's been on board since because I went and because she was working for costume magic then and now she owns the costume shop. But, um, this friend said, Well, [00:11:30] I'll give you Catherine. She's is she said, um, she's marvellous. And, uh, so she said, Oh, yes, I'd love to do it. And so we met at the fabric shop, and that's the first time we'd met. And, um so I told her I was Miss Japan and da da da da So she said, Well, you obviously got to have a red dress And so she said, Which fabric? And I said, Well, you you've got to make it So, um, you choose the fabric because you got to work with it and I told her what I wanted. I wanted a cow [00:12:00] neck. I wasn't gonna I wasn't gonna have boobs. I, you know, I just thought, Oh, well, I'm Japanese so I can get away with So the cow neck and I said, I want angled he line And I said, Slick because I said, My legs are my best feature So they've got to be seen. And she took two measurements and I went for a fitting, and all she had to do was adjust the the the cow neck and, um so yeah, from day one, you had to, and it's it's interesting, because I've done theatre. [00:12:30] I know you can wear shit on stage and, of course, under the lights will come up. I mean, the frock that I'm gonna be wearing next year. I wore it was the one I wore as miss, um Holland, because the theme is red and gold. So I thought, Well, I've got that dress, but we've been wearing that dress for 20 years. I mean, the sequins are all dropping off. I mean, but under the lights. So we just add flowers and things to cover up the board bits on the on the fabric. And then I only [00:13:00] had little like Louis heel shoes that I got from an op shop. Um, but of course, as the show has gone on, everyone's got bigger and bigger. So the shoes I use now, um, another contestant, Steve Lawrence. He had all these shoes and this period, big platforms and big heel, but nice, solid hell. And so he gave me the shoes. So, um, you know, I think, but some of them have gowns made, you know, and OK, they get the money or the sponsorship. [00:13:30] But of course, all the detail just disappears on stage, and they they just don't understand it. But then they enjoy having a gown made. I don't know, but, um, I've got this friend Diana, and she does, um, she we say hair and makeup. She does hair and makeup. She was a hairdresser and wick wig maker in the past. And, um so she she does my hair and makeup and we make the well, we we had that costume the, um the red one that I wore as Miss Holland. Um, but we [00:14:00] added all the frills and bits that she has the ideas and I zoom up the the costume and we've done that with all shows. I mean, like, when I was Miss Peru, it was black and white, and Diana and I were watching dancing with the stars, and this woman was dancing around and she had all this, um, Mabo floating around the bottom. And I said, That's that's what I want. That's what I want. And Diana had this, like a single dress, [00:14:30] just sort of knee length. And, um, we added bits to it and Catherine, it cost you magic. I said, You know, I want some Malibu but I said I probably can't afford Malibu But she through her contacts in America, she got me these white feather boas that had silver streaks through them. So we put one round the bottom and we made, like, a little cape of this and $40. I mean, we had and of course, Diana and I have great fun [00:15:00] doing it and and doing it and then saying No, that's not quite right and cut it and do another bit. And so, yeah, it's it's been lots of fun. And then, and of course, she does my makeup and everything. But when I went to Wellington with Miss England, she didn't come to Wellington, so I had to do well. I could have got the makeup people, but I said, Oh, I'll, I'll do my makeup And I was sharing a dressing room with the love lovely. And of course, he's young and beautiful [00:15:30] and he'd be doing his makeup. And then at the end of it, he just threw all this glitter over himself. And I thought, Oh, I can do that. Give us some but yes, It's just Yeah, I just think the camaraderie of people helping one another, you know, it's just it's always been like that. Um, I think from one of the first shows, one of the guys he had his dress made fairly fairly early on in the piece, and he was quite a bigger guy. And, of course, during [00:16:00] rehearsals and things, he lost weight. And so, of course, dress rehearsal or a couple of nights before dress rehearsal. You know, you put the dress on and of course, it hung on him like a sack. And Steve, Steve Lawrence, he just said, Oh, put it on, you know, put a couple of pins in it and just took it home and run it up on his just did the hemp sea on on his banana. So Trevor had this lovely fitting dress, So yeah, And what about headgear? [00:16:30] The first year, we didn't have headgear as such. Um, we had to come on in sort of like national costume. So I had a lovely a lovely kimono and and, uh, stuff. So head gear actually didn't start till about the second year. I think. Was it even in the second year. It might be in the third year, but that's got bigger and bigger and bigger. And for me, I actually find it the most difficult thing of the show. Um, because you know, [00:17:00] everybody else is gonna And of course you want to be, because you do go in to win. I mean, um, that's the whole point, because you can win great, great prizes. I mean, when I was Miss England in Wellington, I came third and I won a trip for two to Queenstown accommodation, car and everything. So, I mean, there's lovely things to win. Um, but, um, yeah, the head gear I find Really, that's the difficult one for me because I'm not [00:17:30] not that creative. And and I sort of have the ideas. And, um um, like, when I was Miss Peru I, I wanted to do Machu Picchu on my head. And, um, I had the idea, and but Diane and of course, Diana and I do it together, so she couldn't see what I was trying to say. So we ended up with just a a bit of huge bit of polystyrene, and I had a photo of Matri pic blown up on it. But I wanted it to be sort [00:18:00] of free 3D or in a relief, you know, So it would have been a lot of work and stuff, but, uh, yeah, So, um and of course, this next year it it's optional because I'd said to Jonathan, I said a lot of us find it. Really? And, of course, also the cost of doing something like that. Um, Maggie, one of the contestants, She her son, is something to do with design and theatre. And she was Miss Egypt last year, and he made this incredible impo. [00:18:30] But the Sphinx, I mean, huge thing, but it was done on a you know, you feed it into the computer, and the computer carves the the thing. Well, you know, it cost her, like, $1500 you know, and she OK? She she knew she was going to have to pay for it, but, I mean, she could have got sponsorship, but she didn't, but, um, yeah, I don't know. I just find it just hard. I The best one, I think the best one I did I was when I was Miss England. [00:19:00] Um, I came on as the rose the rose of England. So I was in a body stocking of Bright green. And Diana's, um, daughter in law never made a hat in her life. But she's all right on the sewing machine. And she made this incredible rose wired and stuff so that that one was lovely because, I suppose because some somebody else did it for me, I mean, when I went to see it before she had finished it, I thought, Oh, it's [00:19:30] not what I want. Oh, dear, you know, Um but of course it wasn't finished. And then when I went back and she came out wearing it, I burst into tears. I said, Oh, it's just what I want. It's still in the cupboard at home gathering dust. Do you find that The that The whole process of going through the production a bit of a roller coaster in terms of, you know, tensions and oh, yeah, I mean, because [00:20:00] you want to, you know, I mean, I mean, the the bottom line is that we've all got to have fun, but you still want it to be right, and and the people are, you know, as like with amateur Theatre I mean, people are still paying to come and see it, so it's gotta be It's gotta be good. Um And, uh, but the roller coaster is is And I think you know, you need, um you need all that. And I mean, you need that. People say to me, Oh, you surely you don't get nervous going on stage because you've done it so long and done [00:20:30] theatre and stuff. And I said, Well, no, because I said, that's what gets you gets you, gives you the edge. You know, it just gives you the I said if if you didn't feel anything before you were No, I just said I don't think I'd be Wouldn't want to do it. I don't think it would be the same. And I'm sure with, you know, most actors, they still, you know, even if they've been doing it for years, they still feel the edge just before they have to go on. And of course, when you get on you [00:21:00] and if you're doing things wrong and you know you're doing it wrong, you've got to get out of it. You know, um, I used to do tap tap classes and um, we started. We started with a play called Stepping Out, and It's a story about tap classes and there's only one man in it and I played Jeffrey, and it's It's about learning to tap. And in the play at the end, it's like two years later and they put on a show for the community. So you had to learn to tap and then you had to unlearn. [00:21:30] And of course I couldn't. I couldn't get my brain and my feet together, so, you know, I'd just fudge it. And, of course, some of the women in the group we we then started our own class, which went for about five years, and it was just like the play, you know, the woman was doing it because her husband was beating her up, and I mean, it was just like the play. It was incredible. And, um so we started doing shows, and the the tap teacher said, Oh, she said, You're you're terrible. She [00:22:00] said, There's everybody else going. Shuffle, shuffle, shuffle will change, shuffle in their heads and they're doing it correct. And you're just doing that and you've got the finish and everything. And she said. And you make them all look as if they're doing it wrong. And I said, Well, there you are And it's the same with the show that I say Say to the the ones that worry about it I said, You know, you got to remember there's so many people on stage and everyone's not gonna [00:22:30] be looking at you I said, You know, besides, they're all gonna be looking at me. Um, but I said, You know, you just don't I mean, of course you're gonna feel awful, But you can't go. Oh, my God. You know, you can't show it on your face or or whatever or you can I mean, but because there are so many people on stage that you can fudge it. And of course, the great thing is that you know, we all we all lip sync so you don't have to actually, well, you do have to learn the words because, um, you've got to know. And that's another thing with Jonathan. I mean, he gives us [00:23:00] a CD with a print of the the words because he tweaks the the music to make it fit and stuff. So you get the words and the CD. And in 2006, I went travelling. But I came back and was back here for two weeks and did the show as as Miss Peru. But he sent me the CD overseas. So here I'm in London doing the routines and all this and and of course, I came back and a lot of the new new ones didn't didn't know [00:23:30] me. And of course I learned the words and everything. And I'm quite good at picking up dance routines. And and, of course, as long as there's people around me, I can, if I'm in the front, of course, I can't until I've learned it. And some of these youngsters said, But have you been doing Have you been doing this choreography while you're away? And I said, No, no, no, no, no. I said, This is my first day and they said it can't be And I said, Well, your peripheral vision and and, um, I said, I'm probably not doing exactly, [00:24:00] but nobody. And of course, by the end of the couple of weeks rehearsal, I was up to scratch. So so tell me what it's like moving from the rehearsal period into the theatre. That's the technical you that you have the technical rehearsal when everything goes turns to custard. And I actually hate the technical because that's when you know people shout at one another. [00:24:30] I mean, Jonathan shouts, and the stage manager shouts, and and the people in the wings are chatting and not listening, and and then they wonder why they're on the wrong side. And, uh so the technical one is the difficult one, and then the dress rehearsal is is seems to go well. But of course, Jonathan also make we do. We do a dress rehearsal on the actual day so we actually do the show twice on the day of the performance. So, um, [00:25:00] but it's good because every and and that. But the funny thing is, you know, we don't we do it with dresses and the dress rehearsal, but we don't do wigs and makeup, but people can if they want to wear the wig. So the funny thing is, when you're queuing to go on stage for on opening night, you don't recognise anyone. And this last time, Um, because I didn't do the show up here and then I learned to to go down to Wellington for the the out games. Um [00:25:30] and so I thought, Oh, yes, I've got to follow Sue. Well, she's a tall lady with dark hair, but on stage she had bubbly blonde hair and and of course, I wasn't doing the steps correctly and stuff. And I'm thinking, But where is Sue? Where's Sue? And I think Oh, there she is and stuff because I'd get into position late and people would look at me and and, uh but no, it was fun. It was It was good. It was a good good. And it was it was great for [00:26:00] me because I as I say, I travelled last year and I said to Jonathan, I'm planning to be away while the show is on because I don't want to come back and watch it, because if I watched it, I'd want to be in it. So I I didn't even see it. And, um but, um, going to Wellington, I was going to Wellington because I also swim. And so I'm in the in the team Auckland Masters swimmers. And so I swam in the out games down in Wellington and came home with three golds and a bronze. So, um, not [00:26:30] only my stage and screen, but I'm also Olympian. And last year, one of the reasons for being away. I was at the Gay Games in Cologne and came back with two golds and a silver there. I think so. Lose count. That's fantastic. So, have you been in every queen of the whole universe? Well, I, I say I've been in every queen of the whole universe. Um, but I didn't actually physically do last year's show. [00:27:00] 2010. I didn't do that show. Um, but when um, Owen was Miss Oz, he won, and he won a trip to, um Fiji. And so Owen asked me, Would I like to go with him? So he was He was Barbie prawn because he was Miss Oz, and I was Annette curtain. So here's Barbie and Annette in Fiji. And the funny thing was, we got there and we were in [00:27:30] Oh, I forget the name because there's an I think it's and it's it's quite a It's a sugar cane town, and it's quite industrial and stuff. And the day we got there, they were having like a festival and they had the crowning of Miss Sugar cane. And so, of course, Barbie and Anne just laughed and said, Oh, we should have bought our dresses. We could have got in the Miss Sugar cane thing. So [00:28:00] So Owen won that in 2009. So in 2010, So that's the show I didn't actually perform in. But Owen handed over the crown to the next queen, and he mentioned that Annette was sorry. Anne wasn't in the show, but she was, um, touring, promoting queen of the whole universe in the world. She was doing a term of tour or whatever, so I was mentioned. So but Jonathan says, Well, you weren't [00:28:30] in it and I said, Well, I was by name so I've been in every production. But then, of course, that that same show, the 2010 they took to Wellington. And so the guy who played Miss Heaven wasn't going down to Wellington. So I took Miss Heaven and then got talked. Well, I think I got Hoodwinked into being an Act two girl because Miss Heaven was just an act One girl. Can you talk to me about, um, the transformation going from ID to whatever [00:29:00] country you're representing. Well, it was It was interesting. My friend Diana, who's who, As I say, she's my creator. Um, she was doing an art course at Rutherford College. Um, and it was like that first year of when you go to university and you do your first year of art and you find out where which which you want to study. And so she was doing this course and, um and Diana is a bit like me. She just thinks, Oh, you should just be able to [00:29:30] go right? You know, they want a church, there's there's a church. But of course you have to have the thought process and the lecturers wanted to know where you're coming from and all this and there were three TS or something. It was truth, transformation, and something or other. And and of course, she'd go. And she'd say, Oh, what about this and this and this? And the lecturer said, Diana, you can do better than that, and and so she'd go and think again and think again and and she [00:30:00] was. She was thinking, I'm not gonna do this course, You know, I just want to do art, you know? Anyway, she chatted with me and she said, What about the transformation from you from Ed into a drag queen? You know, the truth of HIV aids. And, um so I said, Yeah, fine. I'll I'll I'll do it. So she went to them and they said, Yes, that's fine. So that first year when I when I was that was the second year when [00:30:30] I was Miss Holland. Um, she did this amazing study. I've got this lovely book she did of me on the sewing machine and and picture of just my leg, my legs and then in stockings, on the shoes. And and And then the last picture at the end was, um Ophelia. Ophelia. Dick? Yeah, Ophelia Dike. That's who I was as Miss Holland. Um, and, um and then part of that. So that got accepted, and they just loved [00:31:00] it. And then she a part of the course she had to do something else about a childhood thing that you've always wanted or something that you've never had. And she'd never had a Barbie doll. And so she because she's got all this dress up box. So she got me to go round and she just put on a day makeup. And then she had all these different clothes and wigs, and so the different looks. So I became a Barbie for the die for the day. But the lovely thing was when she she got through the course [00:31:30] and she she graduated. We did the show one night, and I think she graduated the next day on the Sunday And of course it was. The show sort of used to be in November time, Um, so it's coming into summer and stuff. So here I am around her place after doing the show the night before, sort of slightly hung over, putting all the slap on again and dressing up as Ophelia and and went to her graduation dressed [00:32:00] as Ophelia and all the lecturers lecturers came up and they said, Oh, we know you, Ophelia. We feel as if we know you so well. So yes, it's, um and it's interesting because even though you know, I'm an openly gay man, have been and love dressing up and all this, it was a really mind she Diana really had to fight with me because it's the only time I feel Butch is. When I put a dress on, I just feel like [00:32:30] a man in a dress. I mean, once you get the wig on and all that. I mean, it's fabulous that, you know, But I still felt like, um a man. I said, Oh, you know. And when she was taking all these photos and things, she's saying So you know, you you know, And she sat me down and of course I think I was about 58 then And she said, What you've got to remember is you're not a 28 year old woman. You're [00:33:00] a bloody good looking 58 year old woman. I said, You're right, you're right. My shoulders went back and every so every time I go on So, uh, the last one, I would have done 2009 Miss England and and um, she says, And so you know what? What? What are you? And I said, a bloody good 62 year old woman and she good on you, but it was really, really interesting. I found it. Really, As I say, [00:33:30] I just felt just like a bloke in a dress. I just felt so butch. I don't think I could ever be butch. So the transformation on the evening of the show? How How does how does that work? Well, that's again amazing. Because you know, we've all got our different dressing rooms and, um, diner, always well in Auckland, anyway, does does my makeup and the other the others. There's always a team [00:34:00] of makeup artists that come along to to do most people, so they all get to see each other just with the face. But it's it's when you put the wig on. It's just amazing. And and as I say, you stand in the wings or in the corridor waiting to go on to the stage and you don't recognise anyone. I mean, it's it's crazy. It's a whole you think, Oh my God, and you're on stage, you're going. But where's where's Michael? [00:34:30] And he's right there and he goes, I'm here and go, Oh, so, um but and of course, we don't really some of them try their wigs on, but we don't really, because they usually set so nicely. You don't wanna muck them up in a rehearsal. So we don't sort of get to wear them until the actual night. So, um and you know, just the eyelashes and stuff, and, uh, I mean, some of them. I mean, I don't know how they wear them. I mean, I just [00:35:00] have regular ordinary girl lashes, but, I mean, some of them have, you know, drag queen lashes, that sort of like 3 ft long, you could have birds sitting on them. And, of course, the lovely thing is, we get to meet our public after the show and and you go up to to people. Um, and they just say, Well, it took us ages to realise who you were, you know? And, of course, Jonathan has us all coming [00:35:30] forward one at a time and on on the a VS or whatever. They they, you know, Miss England curtain or whatever. Um, so it's not until you sort of actually come forward, but people think, Oh, my God, I thought that was it. You mentioned the public. And I'm wondering, can you describe a queen of the whole universe audience? What is that like? Um, well, the great thing is that it it's It's a diversity. [00:36:00] It's a real cross section. I mean, it's not just a gay audience. Um, and as I said earlier, my my friends, um, would first time brought their husbands along and, um, the husbands would came out of duress and they hated it. But of course, after the show, they, um they just wanted to they couldn't believe it and and people get right into it. Um, when I was Miss England, I was doing some of the music when I in my second piece [00:36:30] was wartime songs. You know, Vera Lynn type stuff and and, um, you'd have people you didn't know and it was funny. It was the age group. About 40. They'd come up to me and they go, 00, it made us feel homesick for the UK and oh da da da da da And there was a couple of very English guys came up to me and they they said, Oh, you were robbed. You were robbed. You should have won the Kiwis. The Kiwis don't understand the English humour. [00:37:00] You you you know, even your name a curtain, you know, and they really get they all get into it. And, um and my I've got new neighbours, next door neighbours, and and so I'm talking to them about getting tickets. And I said, You know, I've already got my block of tickets. Um, would you like to come and And she she said, Oh, yes, When is it? You know we'll have a couple of tickets I said July and she said, And you're selling tickets now? And I said, I said The thing will sell out I said, [00:37:30] It's the last show and I always like to get the front two rows. A. They're cheaper. I mean, you get the third row back and I think it's about $20 more expensive. And I always do, Um, like a supporters pack. I've always done it from year one with with Miss Japan, I had the flags. And that year, um, I didn't know anyone with, you know, computers were that much older. I mean, 2004, but I cut the paper out [00:38:00] that drew around an egg cup and filled it in with the red dot. I mean, um, what you do when you haven't got a life. And then I had I little paper folding little fans and stuff, but I think my best one was for Miss Holland. Um, a friend that got me the proper Dutch hat. And I used it as a template and I made using curtains, Not thinking years later I'd be but going to the store and getting, um, net curtains. And, um, I made [00:38:30] all these Dutch hats. I made about 60 Dutch hats with plats, and then I made pa like paper windmills, like the kids make those windmills. And so they had the flag. And so it's just something I like to do. And of course, I had some friends over from England when I was Miss Holland and I gave them the the Supporters pack. So they had one had one, had the hat with plats, and the other one had and they both had flags. And I said, You know, um, when you get there, just put them on or whatever. [00:39:00] And of course, they thought I was sending them up, and so they had them in a plastic bag or whatever, and they got to the foyer of the A centre. And of course, all they could see was all these plats and Dutch hats and flags and and windmills and so quickly put that on and they didn't know anyone. And they offer You obviously know Miss Holland and da da da da da, and it just gets everyone. And in the first year, when you know, nobody knew what it was about my my tap teacher because she choreographed [00:39:30] it and we worked that one out together. They all came wearing kimonos and and stuff. So it was It's just it's just yeah, people just get right back right into it and and it's a good show. You've been an actor girl a number of times, and I'm wondering, is the feeling of competition really real? Like I mean, when you win or lose, is it something that you really? Absolutely. Because the work that you put in as an Act two girl I mean, you've a you have to [00:40:00] do a five minute piece and five minutes is a long time. You've got to source your music. You've got to put it all together. You you've got a then choreographic. You've got to costume it. You can have up to six people supporting you, so you've got to costume them and they've got to go to rehearsals. And so as long as the rehearsals for act As we say, Act one, um, you've got your Act two rehearsals. So you know there's double things going on. So it's a It's a lot of hard work being an Act two girl. [00:40:30] Um, some, some of the people in Act One think, Oh, you know, we could We could do that. But Jonathan's very clever in knowing now that he knows people. I mean, right in the first show. I mean, he just had to think, Oh, well, we'll take those four people and they can be in act act, too. But, um, he's very good at knowing what people are capable of. And if someone says, Oh, I'd like to do Act two I mean, he'll be up front and [00:41:00] and say, Well, I this year, I don't think, you know, maybe next year, you know? I mean, he's very diplomatic and stuff, but I mean, it's his show, so I mean, he's got and he wants. And the second act, I mean, it's just got just got bigger and bigger and bigger, but and I had to laugh because, as I say I, I was miss, um, heaven in the shame Wellington this year. And, of course, Miss Russia had she sort of had the, you know, the onion domes. She had that Fabri egg. She [00:41:30] had this. She had that she had this. Well, Miss Heaven had, um I think there was. I had four angels and me, So there was five of us, and I think all I had was five umbrellas with tinsel and good on it. And but everyone said, you know it. It worked. And it was. And because Sarah, the choreographer, had put it all together, So she she got the theme of what she wanted because I was I was supposed to be Dorothy and Dorothy gets [00:42:00] killed, you know, do Dorothy from The Wizard of Oz. And this rock came on and killed me. And it's Dorothy's journey of trying to get to heaven. You know, she's knocking on heaven's door and all that sort of stuff. Um, and it was slick, you know, We dance and dance and dance and did it Da da da, da da. And everybody said, you know, you know, the simplicity of it was just wonderful. Unfortunately, it wasn't videoed, so you really don't see have no idea what it was like. But everyone says, you know, But, [00:42:30] um, Miss Russia had all the bells and whistles. So and there was only there was only three finalists in in Wellington for that year. So they didn't have 123. They just had a winner, and the other two were runners up so to and I would run us up. So, uh, in the Wellington one, why do you think the pageant has been so successful? I think main thing is that, [00:43:00] um, the the great cross section of the audience and, um, you know, they all know it's a good night out. So, um, and as they say, it's also supporting the the charities. Um and I think the main thing is, I think we're all having fun. And so the audience pick up on that and they have fun. And especially when some of the other casts now are doing supporters pack. It was only me to begin with, and and so they, [00:43:30] you know, they they you get to all the different flags and different things, and people dress up and and, um so, yeah, so it's a sort of the audience become competitive as well. That must be an amazing feeling being on stage and just having the audience going wild. Well, yeah, The, um, that first one, though, when the curtain went up, and I mean, I've never felt I mean, you know, at discos and stuff, you hear the But it was it just hit us. [00:44:00] I mean, it just went bang in, you know, really hit you in the chest, and, um and of course, you then know you've got them in in your hands. I mean, it's just wonderful. And one year, I when I was Miss Peru, I got into the second act, and of course, I told all my supporters, Yes, I'm I'm I'm in act too. And they go, Oh, good, good, good. But Jonathan has has, um, red hearings. And in that year, we had a a wedding sequence, [00:44:30] so we had to do a we And because I was being disqualified, which I knew, um, queen of the whole universe actually put my act two bit together, the wedding bit. And of course, So I came down the aisle in my wedding dress and the groom came down the other aisle to, um, go into the chapel and gonna get married. And, um so we're up on the stage and a priest came down on wires and all this stuff, um, and then out of the audience, these plants, [00:45:00] a muscle man came up and, um, AAA a physique sort of performer in in his, um, speed days. And I'm I'm sort of going to the ah Oh, Which one do I pick now? 000, and and of course I'm And the two walk off with my groom. And so I'm left on stage on my knees screaming, and I mean, it was all the music and all this stuff, and, of course, the the judge or [00:45:30] whoever It was the MC that that night says, Oh, M Peru has been disqualified for over acting and and, of course, all my friends I said I was in it. So of course, they they still thought I was coming and and Jonathan's going What? Don't Because they're all in the fab. What don't you understand? Miss Peru is not in the show anymore. You'll have to support somebody else and they're going No, bring her back [00:46:00] just finally, Ed, um, if you had a chance to say to to all the people out there in the dark on on the last show something. What? What? What would that be? What would you say to people? Um, I would like to thank Jonathan for his thought of putting it all together [00:46:30] and holding it together And, um, you know, promoting it And and, of course, with Kevin's help as well. But, um, yeah, so a big thank you to them, especially Jonathan.

IRN: 426
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/qwu_wendy_and_melanie.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003900
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089194
TITLE: Wendy and Melanie - Queen of the Whole Universe
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Melanie Church; Wendy Cunningham
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2000s; Auckland; Melanie Church; Queen of the Whole Universe; Wendy Cunningham; drag; performance; theatre
DATE: 12 February 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Wendy and Melanie talk about performing in the Queen of the Whole Universe beauty pageant as both a girl and a boy.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I got involved. I've done six, so I think counting two years where there were two. So probably about four or five years ago. Um, a friend of mine, Jackie got me involved. And she wanted me to do it the year before, but then said I was a bit nervous. I said, Oh, no, no. And then the next year she said, I'll just come and meet everybody And as soon as I'd met everybody, that was it. I was Yeah. And so I went and did that. And every rehearsal, I'd come home and just have had so much fun, and and Wendy would hear about all that. And then, um after the first [00:00:30] show, Jonathan and Kevin met her and they they like, they said to me, Oh, you know, why don't you come and be in the show? And I said, Well, I'd love to, but I knew if I could be a boy and that hadn't happened at that point. So there were lots of boys being girls, but no girls being boys. And so I think that they got a bit of a shock by that, and I think that they sort of must have thought about it for a while and got their head around it and thought, actually, why not? But even that night, they were kind of like, Oh, we haven't heard that before. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the thing about it is nobody really talks about their sexuality or their orientation, You [00:01:00] know, anywhere throughout the, you know, the whole performance or throughout the lead up to it or anything. So and nobody asked the question because it really doesn't matter. We're all there for the same reason. So it's a really nice environment like that. I enjoy it. Yeah. So me can you take me back to the first time that you went to see to see everyone? Why were you apprehensive? I think it just sounded like a really big show. And I was just a bit nervous of whether I could do it or and, um, being a girl, like doing the whole drag [00:01:30] queen thing, I was like, Oh, I don't know, But, um yeah, and I hadn't seen the show either before I was in it, so yeah, I think it was the third one that I got involved in. And then I went to the meeting, and everyone was just so lovely and Jonathan talking about what they were going to do in the show. And it just sounded so exciting. And yeah, it was it really Had you done any performance before? Yeah, a little bit. I do the occasional Dolly Parton impersonation. Yeah. Yeah, and I've done a few shows with other people and some hero shows and things [00:02:00] like that, so Yeah, but it had been a while before I'd done since I've done a really big one. So yeah, and so that first time, what was it like? It was fantastic. But yeah, I'll never forget that. That when you're waiting before the curtain goes up, your knees almost go weak that first time. It's so exciting, and the audience just goes nuts when they see everybody. So can you describe what it's like when that curtain goes up? Oh, it's your heart beating and it just takes your breath away. Really? Because [00:02:30] you're ready for the curtain to go up. But you're not ready for the screaming and the applause and everything that comes before you've even done anything. It's just amazing. It's a real rush. It's a real rush. Yeah, and so you obviously got the bug after the after the first performance. And once you've made friends with everybody, you sort of just want to go back every year. And, yeah, it's almost like a reunion every year because you do it. I don't know. It's about three or four months of sort of seeing each other reasonably regularly, and then you don't see each other till the next year. So there's [00:03:00] sort of that eight months in between where I mean, you see each other occasionally, but it's not. You don't see everybody. So so is there a kind of like a come down period after the performance where it's kind of a bit empty? Yes, absolutely, Absolutely. Because it's so full on leading up to the actual performance, and then after it, there's nothing. And then you just sort of think, Oh, you know there's something missing in your life for a while and then you just sort of ease back into your normal routine. But then look forward to the next one. Think about what head gear you're gonna make. [00:03:30] Yeah, well, can we go through the process of, um, like, how far out before the performance. Do you start rehearsing and and take me through what that actually involves? Well, there there's usually quite a few meetings before we actually start the full on rehearsal, which is probably about three months out the full on rehearsal. So we meet up sort of periodically. Maybe it is the three months that we start meeting up. Yeah, and then it's just sort of, I don't know, maybe six weeks, six weeks of two rehearsals a week. So it sort of Yeah, quite intensive. [00:04:00] Once you start Wednesday and Sunday night, and then you've also got you know, if you're part of one of the Act two, then you've got to, um, sort of commit to those as well, so it can be anywhere up to sort of four rehearsals a week for some of them go for a couple of hours at a time. And but you just sort of figure Well, look, you know, it's only sort of 6 to 8 weeks out of my life and and it's such good fun. Yeah, it's it's fine. It's actually a really cool commitment. So how do they make it such good fun? Oh, it's just just the people. [00:04:30] That isn't it. Yeah. I think you get a whole lot of queens in the room at the same time. It's always gonna be a lot of boys. And that first, my favourite was learning how to walk When it was before Wendy came and they got a guy in who teaches models and he was gay. He was fantastic. He did the girls walk, and then he taught, was teaching the boys how to do the boys walk, but seeing some of the girls trying to walk in the heels for the first time and just Yeah, this is fantastic. I haven't loved that [00:05:00] much in ages. That's why we do. You think she could never be a girl because she can't walk in the heels. I all the boys think she should be a girl in just one time. Yes, I have the utmost respect for them, you know, But I just I don't think I could do it. I really don't. Sure you could. I couldn't get my head around it. So are they wearing heels and rehearsals? Some really diggy outfits. Sometimes they're hilarious. I've got these beautiful shoes on, and they're probably wearing, you know, paint covered shorts and T shirt. He's a painter, He comes in his little paint shorts and cute. [00:05:30] So what else happens at rehearsals? How how did they work? But Jonathan's got a clear plan every time he comes in on what we need to get through. So I mean, he's He's very good at making sure that we sort of, you know, meet our commitments every time we turn up, but it's usually we get there. We have a bit of a gathering. We say Good day. Then he says, OK, and then that's it. Everyone's on. Um, until he basically says No, that's That's the end of the rehearsal and we'll see you next time. We have a cup of tea and biscuits in the middle. Everyone tries to avoid so they [00:06:00] can fit their outfit. But end up having them anyway. Yeah, hanging out for the cigarette and a cup of tea. So what's how would you describe Jonathan's directing style? I think that he's kind of a fan, but fear director, I think he's great. He knows that there's a job that needs to be done, but he he's fine for people to have fun while doing it as well. As long as it doesn't get out of control. He's he's great, but he's most of the entertainment himself. He's the one that gets us laughing most of the time, [00:06:30] and then he goes, OK, shut up, OK, and what's it like? Because it's a very inclusive, uh, cast. You've got all types of ability. What's that like in terms of rehearsing when people are. Obviously some people are going to be better at things than others. I think it's pretty good. No one really kind of gives anyone a hard time if it takes them longer to get steps or whatever, and everyone sort of helps each other. Yeah, yeah, because there are. There's always some sort of [00:07:00] pretty professional dancers, but you might only have two of those. So everyone just says if you go out the front and, you know from behind. So yeah, I think everyone just helps each other out. Really. Nobody comes down and anyone ask, and that's why we keep going back because it's just such a lovely environment. It's just bit, and there has been in all the years I have done it, which is quite amazing. I think maybe it's something to do with, like, attracts. Like, you know, you sort of come along to an environment. You see whether or not it's a good fit for you. Um, and [00:07:30] you know, all the people that that sort of go are just great get along. And I don't think it would be tolerated either. If someone was mean to someone, I think everyone would be like, You know, that's not cool. So when when did when did you start with the I started a year after Mel, because she'd always come home on a high, even if she sort of left. And she was a bit tired, you know, haven't been at work and that kind of thing. She'd come back and always be on a high and would always have little, you know, anecdotes to tell me about what had happened that night, which is great. And I just thought it was sounded absolutely [00:08:00] hilarious and kind of thought. Well, I've got to go and see for myself. And so I ended up there the year after as a boy. And what is the difference between being a boy and being a girl on stage. What comfort? Absolutely. I'm actually going to be a boy this year because it's the final year. And I love taking photographs during the show and, um, getting into your girl costume and the whole head thing and getting the makeup done. [00:08:30] It just takes so long and you see everyone else around. I keep thinking, Oh, I want to take a photo of that or that and you know, So I just thought this year I want to do drag, drag and be a boy. Yeah, the difference is really in that, Um, when you get on stage as a girl, you have to you're on there to perform because you're competing, you know, to be Miss Universe. And with the boys, we're almost like accessories. I suppose we we sort of, um, not in a bad way. We we help all the girls on stage, and when they do the catwalk of nations, we help them guide, we help take them on stage and [00:09:00] with any of their costume, um, dramas. We have to sort of be there and make sure that everything goes smoothly. So there is a bit of responsibility there, but, um In recent years, Jonathan has been getting the boys to open the show, which has been really nice. So it just means that there's more of an impact when the, you know, like Mel said, with the curtain rising when it rises, it's It's just an amazing impact, visually from the crowd. So it's been working really well, and it's been fun for us, too, to be more involved. So and I guess, assisting the girls. I mean, when you think of some of the head gear, [00:09:30] which is some of it's huge, Absolutely, absolutely. So I mean, we've had mishaps on stage. I mean, they just can't be avoided. You just don't know what's going to happen on the night, so you just sort of got to roll with it. But, yeah, there have been a couple of incidents where headgear might have fallen off. Or maybe someone's forgotten to take something out or yeah, maybe they haven't strapped it on properly. So yeah, so that's what we're there for. It's amazing what people make, though, because no one really knows how to do it. You know, you get in the show and then you've got to sort of make [00:10:00] something for your head, and I certainly didn't know how to do it. And some have worked better than others. I find if you strap it to your back, it's better I had I did Scotland last year and made this sis thing, and it was heavy and my neck was sort of like the sacrifices you have to. Some people are so clever. They're just so clever. Some of the things they came up with and I've never done it before. It's just amazing, but we can't believe it. Oh, yeah, I've never done this before, but they've made things a little, um, propellers on and stuff like moving lights. [00:10:30] Or just so what are some of the stand out bits of head gear? Oh, the one that it was Easter Island. And it looked like a big, um, Easter egg. It was looked like an Easter, but inside was a light and and the way that he made the the frame of it, it just the light. When it came through, it was just amazing, but so huge. It must have been like two metres wide by about a metre high. And so yeah, just making the frame for that and making sure the light worked and [00:11:00] just logistics of getting it all together and getting it out there on stage. It just blew my mind. I thought, that's really clever, really clever actually getting that out on stage, I mean, even back. How does how is that handled? It's a nightmare because people come off and then sometimes they have to turn and go at a certain angle and other people are trying to. It's all. And then there's all the rigging that you have to watch out for, and everyone else is lining up to try and get on stage stage managers. You know, you have to do that [00:11:30] quietly on the stage people. And And what about costumes? Any favourite costumes? So you've got so many. I've got so many least favourite costumes. For some reason, the boys always wear less and less less is you know the way to go with Jonathan. And, you know, one year we wore sort of a shredded top, and I called it a loin cloth. There wasn't much left to the imagination, so every year I just sort of freak out about what our costumes are going to be. But [00:12:00] then I feel happy about the fact that I don't have to up with my own. So it's kind of a bit of the Wellington outfit because usually it happens sort of leading into summer in Auckland. And so everyone sort of is on the bit of the queen of whole universe diet. And then we did Wellington the first time. It was mid winter, of course. So we'd all been eating and outfits were like, Oh, and every time we go to eat something, I'd say loin cloth to we she'd be like, Damn! Still, when we got there, everyone said to Jonathan Oh, my outfits shrunk. I can't [00:12:30] wear that. So is there a special queen of the whole universe diet? No, they're all personal, but we all talk about it. Kind of like, you know, we know that the show is coming up and everyone wants to look their best. So, you know, everyone always talks about the salad. That's mine. Yeah. Having to cut down. Yeah. Yeah, Well, when you're a girl, it's amazing the things you can buy to pull you in and, you know, Yeah, I'm a bit worried about the boy. I'll definitely have to be on a diet. [00:13:00] And so are you making your own costumes and headgear? Um, for girls, you make your own head gear and costumes. Yeah. You either get sponsorship for people to buy them, or I've usually found them in op shops. So maybe, um, sort of adjusted them, or I've hired a couple, but that was more at the beginning. So now I have all these dresses. I don't know what i'll ever do with, but yeah, but some of them are amazing. Some, they must have been thousands on them. And, like, [00:13:30] um oh, yeah, Colin, Colin and, yeah, there's two that are a couple and they get I think they get sponsorship from a shop over the shore that does obviously ball gowns and sort of wedding stuff. And that and they incredible beaded things. Every year. It's like, Oh, it just gets better and better. And they look gorgeous. Yeah. So do you think the bar has been raised? Every performance in terms of you know, what's been shown and how I think I think so. Oh, definitely. But with each show sort of become, you know, you get more [00:14:00] experience each show you do. So I think that people sort of always on the lookout, whether they're doing the show or not. So, you know, you always sort of, um, what's the word I'm looking for scoping for new gear to wear. So, yeah, I think that's why the standard might have been raised. And there's always someone whose outfit is bigger and brighter than your own. So next year you think I want to get more glitter or bigger hair or a competition, you know? Do you actually get to see the show? Sometimes if you're not taking part in the second half, [00:14:30] then you can go right up the back and watch, and that's really cool. But they've filmed it, um, a couple of times. So that's when we get to see it, Um, and it's quite unusual seeing it from the audience perspective. You know, obviously, if you're on stage, you don't get to see that, But so it's really cool when they always have sort of a main screening. After the fact everyone gets together, which is another excuse to get together, which is another look forward to, which is great, Um, and we use big screen, too. Yeah, yeah, and it's It's great all the [00:15:00] comments that come out and people screaming and carrying heckling. It's just it's just a lot of fun. So can you describe for me the process of going from the rehearsal stage to the theatre stage? Do your stress levels increase? Is it Is it tense? Is it? Yeah, yeah, I think once you set foot in the like, for example, the a T Centre. Um, you know that it's show time because it's such a It's a huge space. And when you're standing on stage [00:15:30] and looking out, all you see is seats and many levels of them, and you think, Oh my gosh, they're going to be packed The night that we perform got to put your best foot forward. But also Jonathan lifts the intensity. He makes sure that you're aware that hey, it's 33 days to game day, two days to game day or right it Showtime. And I want you to have a lot of fun, but I also want you to put your best foot forward. So a nice combination. Everyone's going to be putting their best foot forward anyway. Um, but Yeah, it is all about having a bit of fun and remembering [00:16:00] why we're there, that kind of thing. And there's usually 2 to 3 late nights on the So you might maybe Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. So if you work normal full time, I mean, the second year I did it, I took the Friday off because I thought that I just couldn't You're trying to go to work And the next day, after being up till sort of midnight the night before dancing away. So it's sort of like, Yeah, I think a lot of people take that Friday off sometimes. Now, if they can help Too stressful. Yeah, because otherwise, you sort of be really [00:16:30] late thinking, Oh, you know, it's past my bedtime and, yeah, but can you describe for me the the kind of transformation that you go through when you're going through costuming and makeup on on the day when you get there, You. I always tend to go first. I think they like to do the um when they're doing the girl's makeup. They like to do the real woman first, because I think the boys had to have the shave at the last minute and stuff like that. So you go through the makeup thing and then just getting [00:17:00] your costumes on and depending on what your hair is, like, just that sort of thing. But we all end up in the same dressing room, the real woman, Um, so that's good. You can always help each other out. And But I think for the men it would be a whole different ball game with just the, you know, shaving their legs for the first time or that kind of thing. I think it's a lot harder work for them to get themselves Trans, um, put into girl costume. So yeah, and it's different for the boys because it's usually about sort of 10 to 12 of us, and, um, sort [00:17:30] of. In recent years there's been maybe four or five women and amongst the boys, so we just you can't be shy. That just sort of goes out the window, so it's quite funny. You just sort of see everyone walking around in their underwear or a little bit less, and, um, we do help each other out trying to get dressed, and we've just sort of gotten to the point where, um, the girls don't care. The guys don't care. We're all there for the same reason. So, yeah, the binding thing is the girl's mission to be boys. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, You find the right thing to flatten [00:18:00] your chest. And actually, often it's better to get a guy to help you because they get it just right. I don't know. Maybe they've got bigger hands. We're kind of going off on a whole new tangent here, aren't we? And you knew about that? OK, which boy? Michael, right? Yes. Sorry, we will. We? So that's the kind of, um, the kind of physical transformation. What about the the kind of emotional mental transformation? When when does that kind of happen? For [00:18:30] me? It happens as soon as we start getting changed. I guess so, Yeah. Just sort of get your makeup on. Yeah. And you know, once you get your makeup on and once you get your your costumes on you, you look completely different. And so you feel completely different. And then you just sort of think to yourself, OK? What do I need to do tonight? What are the things that I've had trouble with? you know, just sort of mentally preparing yourself in that way, making sure that, you know, you just try and keep one step ahead all the time. So, you know, sometimes people have gotten lost on stage or a whole group of people have gone one way, and they've gone [00:19:00] the other, which is just hilarious. So everyone's got a big smile on their face as they continue doing their performance. So are there, um, big differences that you notice in yourself going from your everyday self to on stage. You know? Does your personality your persona change? Mine does your does. You get cheekier a lot naughtier a lot naughtier. Yeah, it's hard to imagine, but it's all [00:19:30] those boys egg you on as well. I'm definitely one of the boys. I'm in the right place. Then, Yeah, I don't know about mine. I've always said this thing being AAA real woman, so to speak. Um, doing drag. It's different to being a man doing drag the character thing. Yeah, because Jonathan Jonathan often talks about getting into your character and because I am a girl. So being a girl, it's not so far reaching. I think that's why this year. I wanted to, um, be a boy as well. And I feel more [00:20:00] in character when I do that drag that way. So I'll be interested to see that. Yeah, I've seen it before. Do you choose your names, or do they get chosen for you? Yeah. And so your names have been I've had a couple. My first one is a boy. Um, my first one was Dick Van Dyke, and my second one was packed and bound mine now Spain, Um, adorable bull. Because I did, um it was [00:20:30] to do with Dora being Picasso's wife because I did a big Picasso bullhead. Um, what was the Gallipoli was really good. What? Scotland? Do you remember Scotland? You sort of Scotland. I own a lock. Was Scotland. They tend to be naughty, but if the ruder, the better we've learned over the years and everyone else's names it like Oh, I see they've kind of made more of a, um [00:21:00] They put the name up on a screen now so you can read it as well, if you know, because sometimes the pronunciation doesn't quite get across. So when you do get to see it on the big screen. You see, some people sort of quiet for a second, and then they just crack up laughing. Because Miss Samoa last year was, um and, um, the man who had very refined voice, so it sort of sounded a little different, but everyone roared at that. I think all his family were in the front row, [00:21:30] so yeah, that was a good one. It's interesting. Um, you bring up the audience. Uh, I wonder, Can you describe? I mean, is there a typical audience? What? What is the demographic for it? Hm? I think I'm not too sure on the demographic. You don't get to see anything when you're I mean, it's all just lights. So I guess a lot of the community and, um, people's family and friends. Yeah. Yeah, but I mean, as far as sort [00:22:00] of getting a feel for it. I think that because we've had had it in Auckland, sort of for 10 years. I think that there is, you know, sort of people have been coming. Maybe for that long. And other people just sort of think Well, we've been to one show. We don't need to sort of, you know, go to another, which is a shame, because there's, you know, always something new happening. Um, and I just think, you know, if people just sort of came along every year that they'd love it just as much as they did the first time they saw it. But in Wellington, we noticed that it was different. They were louder. The theatre was a lot smaller and everyone was louder. And it [00:22:30] was just amazing. And you could actually see them, which is a bit of a shock, A lot closer. And everyone got dressed up in their own costumes in Wellington, which was really, really cool. Yeah. So what's the best part of the experience? The whole pageant? What? What's the best part for you? So many things. I mean, the rehearsals is always fun, just getting to catch up with everyone. But, I mean, the night itself was always so great. That's the pinnacle for me. Yeah, [00:23:00] the night and that First, when the curtain first goes up, that's the pinnacle for me. And then when it goes down, there's sort of like this huge sense of relief as well as yeah, we pulled it off, and now we can go and socialise with each other. And, yeah, but then it's sort of an anti climax next day because it's like it's all over now. Yeah, well, it is almost all over with. This is the the 10th upcoming show and and the last [00:23:30] one. What? What do you think about that? I don't know. It sort of mixed feelings, really sad, because it's it's ending. Um, and it's been such a cool ride, Um, but also good in that, you know, Jonathan just needs a break, you know? He's he's just a workaholic. He just I don't know where he gets his energy from, but he's just amazing. And he's got so many other opportunities that he needs to focus on as well. And he's sort of been juggling those again. I don't [00:24:00] know how he's done it. So in that sense, yeah, a bit of sort of bittersweet. It's good to go out with a bang. The 10 ones you know, he's done it well, isn't he? Yeah, of course he is. It's Jonathan. Hey, just finally if, uh, you had something to say to all those people out there in the dark on the performance night What would that be? Just enjoy yourself and Yeah, I'd probably say the same. Just just have an absolutely fantastic [00:24:30] night because we're going to It's just the way it is. And thanks for supporting big time.

IRN: 466
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/qwu_michael_sanders.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003899
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089193
TITLE: Michael Sanders - Queen of the Whole Universe
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Michael Sanders
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2000s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Michael Sanders; Queen of the Whole Universe; drag; performance; theatre
DATE: 22 April 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Michael talks about being one of the choreographers for the Queen of the Whole Universe beauty pageant.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: But I was actually, at the time choreographing Miss World New Zealand. And, um, a friend gave my name to Jonathan, who got in touch with me, and he brought me into, um, choreograph the first show, Very first show, um, opening number. And, um, that's how I got involved. And I'm still here. 10 years later, before we get to that first show and the queen of the whole universe pageant, Can you paint or describe to me what goes into [00:00:30] choreographing something like Miss World New Zealand? Um, yes. Um, basically, I get this New Zealand I haven't I haven't done for a few years. Um, but I used to do the opening number, so I used to I I choose an opening number. I'd get the girls a week before the show, um, and spend a week with them. Um, fine tuning them into a dance routine. A couple of dance routines. So, um, yeah, it was [00:01:00] a lot of fun, but it's very different from what I'm doing now. So the, um, experience level of the girls and that kind of pageant, Uh, what was It was very, very, very much various. Um, some had to had dance training, Some hadn't. So, um, you had to sort of on the first day, I would sort of try and push them a little bit and see where the talent lies. Um, and used it and a bit like the whole universe. Really? Um, but, [00:01:30] um, see where the talent is and and and what's my lowest denominator? Because you should always choreographed to your last denominator. And when you say choreograph, what does that actually encompass? What? What are the limits of the choreography? Is it in the way people are moving? Is it the way they are set on the stage? Um, yes. So why they set on the stage where they're moving? Um, the dance steps that you teach them? Um the the overall. Look, I guess, um, and and Jona Jonathan [00:02:00] and I often talk about what he wants to to look like, and then I go from there. So I was interested to know in you describing the the Miss New Zealand choreography How different that is to what happens with the queen of the whole universe. Um, we have a little bit more time, um, between the whole universe, Um, and not much difference. Really? Um, probably you can take a few [00:02:30] more liberties between the whole universe. Whereas with Miss New Zealand, you can't really take the Mickey out of of the girls. Um, whereas we can, Part of the queen of the whole universe is the comedy. It's a fun thing. And And we as the Miss World, New Zealand, they're all there for serious, um, business. So they all want to win, Um, the the crown and go go after Miss World. So it's It's very different. Very different. I feel so when Jonathan first [00:03:00] approached you for that first pageant, what were your thoughts? I mean, yeah, love to you, love to you. It's something exciting. Hm. Something different. Yeah. I think it was a mutual thing that we both sort of approached each other almost. Um, can you recall the types of choreography that you were? Yeah. Yeah, we did. Um, I am what I am as the opening number. I think all of us who are involved in that will remember that, Um, it was [00:03:30] an amazing, amazing experience on the on the actual night, but, um, we had so I had so much fun. So much fun, and everybody gave it a go. And, um, yeah, it was just a magical experience. Can you recall the first rehearsals for that first pageant where you were presented with a whole lot of people with a whole lot of different abilities? I guess because I'm involved in musical theatre. Um, I I'm [00:04:00] used to sort of people of different abilities coming along. So, yeah, there were a few times where we tore our hair out, and, um, but on the whole, it it was just the experience was just such a wonderful one that, um that overruled everything else. And, um, you know it. It's not about being a perfect dancer or or or the opening number. It's about having having the fun and and getting the message out there. [00:04:30] But so can you talk a wee bit more about the, um, you mentioned, uh, choreographing to the lowest common denominator? Can Can you explain that a bit more? Yeah, well, you, um when I do a show, um, I have various degrees of dance dance ability amongst the people that are, uh, are dancing. So you've got you've got people who have done ballet or, um have done have hop or jazz or tap. [00:05:00] But you also have people who have come in off the street who have never done anything. So you've got a You can't expect everybody to know what a P a is or you know, part of you know, they'll all go look at you and go Don't know what you're talking about, but, um So you have to pull it back to what you would think People would know as [00:05:30] common language and and and and work in that way. And then then actually sort of push them a little bit. And over the years, you know, the guys who have been in over 10 years, they all have progressed along the over the time. So, um, you know, you must have to be quite skilled at not intimidating people if if people aren't dancers and then to actually try and coax them into choreograph steps, I think I [00:06:00] think you have to be patient. Patience is is is a virtue. And it's one that you really need in something like this. You mentioned the I am what? I am opening number for the first pageant. Why was that so special? um I think I am What I am for me. Um, it's always been a bit of an anthem for for me personally, Um, And if you listen to the words of I am what I am, it is such an amazing [00:06:30] thing saying, Well, you know, this is who I am, And if you don't like it, well, sort of thing. So, um, it's Yeah. So it's definitely been something special for me. Um, but it is sort of It is sort of a gay anthem. Really? Were you there on opening night on that first night? I was. And what was the audience reaction? Amazing. Just amazing. Uh, very much like the Miss World. New Zealand. Actually. When When the curtain goes up on this world New Zealand, the audience just goes [00:07:00] nuts and the girls don't and can't manage to hear the music and I. I tell them that every time, well, used to tell them that every time. Um but it it was the support that was there in the audience was just throwing. Yeah, and it discontinues, right? Where does that support come from? Where do you Why do you think the audience is so behind it. I think it's something that's a It's doing something some good in the community. [00:07:30] Um, but it's it is fun. It all comes back to fun, doesn't it? So, um, it's Yeah, I think everybody's there to have a good time for me. It's It's been the comraderie that I've I've I've got I've met lots of people that I wouldn't have known before. Um loved working with Jonathan and and Kevin and, um the the guys that have been there [00:08:00] all through the thing. It's just like a reunion every time we get together. So, um, it's just it's just been a wonderful experience for me personally. Can you describe Jonathan's directing style? What's he like as a director? He knows what he wants. Um, he and he knows how to kill us. Um and yeah, he He's kind and and gentle with people. Sometimes it can be harsh, [00:08:30] but sometimes you have to be. So I've picked up from some of the other interviews that a lot of it is about participation. So it's open to anyone any gender sexuality, and it's about the participation. Yeah, I remember the very first one and there was a guy in there who was out of a bikie gang. IIII. I think I've got my story. Right. Um, I think he was in a bikie gang or had been in a bikie gang and somebody that he knew had died of aid. And he came [00:09:00] into the, um into the pageant, and it was you looked at him and you went OK, What are you doing here? But he actually was the nicest, nicest person and and was there for, you know, that support. Do you think there's a kind of a typical participant? Definitely not. Definitely not. No, definitely not. There's there's people from all sorts of walks and lives. Um, [00:09:30] yeah. No, definitely not with that broad cross section of of participants. What are the biggest issues for you as a choreographer? Um, just making sure that everybody is seen. That's really important. Um, that you don't hide somebody in the back row. You know, um, that they all get a chance to be front and centre, so to speak. So you've got to make sure that everybody gets, [00:10:00] um, good ear time, so to speak, so to speak. Um um, it's really important that all those people get a chance to be at the front. So at some stage during the routine. So, um, that is 11 thing that I'm really, um, quite in time. Um, and I do that in my other choreographic work. Um, because we're all in all there for the same reason. So, [00:10:30] um, uh, your skill set again? Um, age does put boundaries, so we can't have anybody doing high kicks and splits when, you know, in the fifties and sixties. You know, um, although some would try, um, So, yeah, there are limitations, but But we can work around that. You know, when I do a show, I say to my casts that we're a family, and and it has It has become very much so a family [00:11:00] sort of situation. Whereas we've got all the ones that have been out for 10 years, it is that, you know, it's a real family feeling to it. So for people that have been there for a length of time, can you see a progression in like, for instance, the confidence or the way they move or Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely. Trevor, who you last interviewed? He keeps saying to me I'll never get this. I'll never get this in the first year. You know, he was a bit, you know, three left [00:11:30] feet. But, um, he got it in the end. And he's just gone on leaps and bounds every year, you know? And and just the difference in performance. You know, you can see from where he was 10 years ago to where he is now. And there's a couple of others that are like that, you know, that they know they know how to perform. Now, you know, they've they've learned performance from Jonathan and myself and all the other choreographers that have come passed through on the way. Are there any others [00:12:00] that you can think of that that have developed in in a similar way? Yeah. I think over the years it has developed because the I mean the act two girls definitely have have from the very first one the the calibre has just gone up and up and up and up every year. Um, and I think that's pushed people, too. Um, and there's people who have, you know, gone on to try and being an Act two girl who possibly 10 years ago. Wouldn't even think about it, you know? So it's been, [00:12:30] um, interesting to see that, too. So for you, when you're choreographing, what do you start with? What? What idea? Where does that come from? Um, Jonathan and I talk about he he'll give you a piece of music. Um, I'm a bit of an organic choreographer, so it sort of happens. Sort of just happens as we go. And, um, I don't I tend to plan where people are going, but not what the steps are. So, um, [00:13:00] and from time to time, I do. Um but it just sort of grows and and I grow it that way. So I have in my mind pictures, you know, um, of what I want to see. So, yeah, am I right in thinking that the last queen of the whole universe you there was something like about 40 or 50 people on stage? Yes. Yes. Yeah. What other people? Yeah, I was gonna say What? What is that? Like to choreograph 40 or 50 people. Well, [00:13:30] let me see the the first couple of years when it was, you know, 30 years or so, um was really good, because Nobody knew each other. But everybody knows each other now, so it's very noisy for a start. Um, they like to talk amongst themselves a lot. Um, so that can be frustrating. And it takes a little bit more time. Um, but, you know, people help each other. It's It's a real, you know? I go back to the family thing. It's a real [00:14:00] family. We're all there helping each other. So, um, you know, it works that way. So, um, if somebody's not getting a step, then if I can't help them or I'm busy off doing somebody else will be helping them. So it's It's It's great. You know, I'm really interested in the the production process of of the pageant. And I'm just wondering, can you describe for me what a typical rehearsal would be like? Um, to a rehearsal? [00:14:30] Uh, we would start with a warm up, um, just to get bodies moving. Um, Kevin usually does that. Um, and then they'll leave a hand over to me or the other choreographer, depending on what we're doing. Um, but from the start, we we build, like, as a I build sections and put that then sort of put it together. So you'll I'll give them a little few steps and then I'll add on and then I'll add on a little bit more, and then I'll go back [00:15:00] to the beginning and then I'll add a bit more. And so it sort of it. It starts at a very much, um, you know, it just grows it. It's as I say, organic. It actually grows. And and then then, by the end of a rehearsal, they might have finished a third or half of the routine and and they are surprised, you know it. It's quite a surprise that they realise that how far they've got, um and then have a cup of tea. [00:15:30] Um, and I need to lie down after that and then usually, um, Jonathan will take over, and we might do the head gear of nations putting that together or something. So we don't solely concentrate on, um, one whole aspect of the show. We we will move through all the different aspects and rehearsals, and then the point where you're getting from rehearsal into the theatre, Can you describe for me what moving from rehearsal space [00:16:00] to theatre is like, um it could be tricky, but it hasn't really been, Um, because you're working in two different spaces. So, um, your rehearsal room is a certain a certain space, of course. And then you go into the theatre, which can be you can have more space or maybe less space at times. But, um, that can be kind of tricky, but you need to go through and say, right, go to your first positions. [00:16:30] Um, check where you are, right? You're all happy there, Right? Let's go to your second position. So you do a positional rehearsal where they just go from position to position just to make sure that they know where they are, because it's a whole different looking at the wall than looking at a whole lot of seats, too. So, um, when you're in a hall for, say, six weeks, you actually know your places that you have to be. Well, hopefully, um, And then when you get into a theatre, it throws you off because you haven't got your usual, um, points [00:17:00] of focus. Um, so that that can be a problem. Um, and of course, lighting and adding lighting and sound is a whole different makes a whole different atmosphere. So what do you tell people when they don't have point of focus? How do you tell them where to be on the stage? Well, you I, I then pinpoint the rows, the seats And I say to them, Well, you know, there's no a there. So you're maybe [00:17:30] two seats in from the aisle or something like that. You know, just just in your head, go through and and work it out. And and people do. Most people do, and some people need a little bit of help, but, um, that can be an issue sometimes, and we centre is You always must know where centre is. So so, um, that there's always a central point in every routine. So you don't have, say, four people on that side and 16 on that side. You make it so it's eight and eight sort of things. So [00:18:00] I imagine moving into a theatre can also be quite stressful because you you're suddenly dealing with writing and sound and which, which is what Jonathan deals with. So, um, once we get into the theatre, he sort of moves on to that technical issue and you have to be patient, you have to be really patient. Because these we've been doing it for six weeks. Whereas the technical people have only just got the music and only got the life in, You know that they only know from what they have been told [00:18:30] that day, what's happening? So you have to be patient, um, and just go with the flyer. And don't get upset if we have to stand there for 20 minutes while they fix something which doesn't usually happen, but it can do. Um um, you just have to be Yeah, patience is very important as the choreographer. Do you have much say in terms of, uh, what people are wearing and kind of lighting design? No. Jonathan does all that. [00:19:00] So how would you describe your relationship with Jonathan? Um, we work really well together. I think, um, he tells me what he wants. I tell him when he's getting and we go from there, we have a We have a very funny relationship. I think, um, when we're doing when, When it's all been put together and well in in the past. And it's not gonna happen this year because I'm not doing choreography. But, um, you know, there's under under. [00:19:30] Underscores going on between us, you know, we have. We'll have a little jive at each other every now and then and have a bit of a laugh, but, um, yeah, No, we work very well together. And so this upcoming pageant, the 10th 1, you're going to be a contestant. Yes, but this is not the first time you've been a contestant. No, I've been a contestant twice before. And what is that? Like What? What? What's the difference between that and being the choreographer? Um, very different, Because you have to be one of the girls [00:20:00] as well. Um, but just say you're one of the team where you can't be when you cho you, you're leading which role do you prefer more? Um, people will say that I'm a control freak, so probably a choreography. Um, but no, I do enjoy being on stage. I love being on stage and and and And this is really different and fun. So what was it like the first time that you were actually a contestant with the queen of the whole universe? Can you remember [00:20:30] that? Scary as hell. Scary as hell, the whole different ball game. Um, when you're in a show, you're given a script and you're playing a character. And yes, we are playing characters, but there is a little bit of ourselves and and the person we portray and we have to make up that ability. It's very much like when I did ladies night the second ladies night two, they, um, at the end of the show, we used to do a monologue [00:21:00] the Gavin used to do a monologue and drag, And the second time the director said to me, Oh, you can write that. And I went, Oh, my God. You know, um, that's hard. Um, and it's put a little bit like that is what the whole thing is, your CRE creation. So as an Act two girl, you have to create your character, Your persona. Um, you put together your routine. Um, so it Yeah, it can be quite scary. [00:21:30] So who were you on the first time? First time I was with Australia. I'm Skippy Divo and I did a tribute to Peter Allen, who had obviously had died of AIDS. And, um so I put those two things together and did my tribute did a tribute to him, and then, um, was a bit weird because I used this song. I go to Rio, [00:22:00] which was a Peter Allen song, but it didn't really relate to Australia, so but it related to him, and I still call Australia. Home was a song that I used also, um, And then I went into absolutely everybody, which is a a bit of an anthem in Australia. So, um, I tried to tie that up together and in terms of garments and headdress. What? What? What did you have going on? Oh, I can't remember. I wore a skirt and a blouse for the first bit of the number, and then I stripped [00:22:30] it off and I had a corset underneath. Um, yeah. So it was a bit show girly, very show girl. How far out do you have to start thinking about kind of garments and headdress and music before the performance I like I've already put together my music for Miss Sweden, Which is what, Two months ago, I put it together, um, and with Miss Argentina, which was pretty [00:23:00] much a no brainer because a gay musical theatre did the whole of Eva thing. So, um, um, I put that together probably about 6 to 8 weeks before the show. It was Oh, no, it actually would have been longer than that. But, um, definitely. I knew what I was doing. I knew I had the whole concept in my head of what I was doing and how I was putting together. What do you find the most exciting part of of the queen of the whole universe [00:23:30] for you as a contestant? Um, there's nothing better than the curtain coming up at the very start of the show. And the roar of the crowd. It is just it's just mind blowing and yeah, that's that's probably the best part. And the camaraderie that you get from everybody. It's just that's really special on the day of the performance. Are you kind of tense? Are you nervous? Are you? Um, [00:24:00] yeah, I am a little bit nervous. Um, because you never know what can go wrong. Um, and I think nerves is a good thing, and And when you're performing, you know, if you don't have nerves, then it doesn't drive you to get better, but, um yeah, III. I am slightly nervous. Probably smoke more than I probably should. And can you talk to me about the the transformation [00:24:30] from you and everyday clothing to either Miss Argentina or Miss Australia or, uh, with Miss Argentina? I had a makeup artist come in and and help me. So, um, she did my makeup for me. I had I got the wig. So as soon as you start putting the makeup on the wig you become, you start to become another character. And then then, of course, the clothing all helps. So, um, it is, [00:25:00] Yeah, it's really important. Clothing is quite an important thing for your character and your character, right? And, um and I guess when you turn into a woman from a man and that's really important, but yeah, you just sort of And the shoes make you walk like a woman sometimes. Um, but, um, yeah. No, it's the whole transformation [00:25:30] over the couple of hours. It takes you to do your makeup and everything. It's, um, quite amazing. Do you find there's a moment where you mentally switch from yourself to this? This other person? Um not really. Not really I, I guess. Like any actor I when I go on stage that becomes I become the other person. And then when I come off stage, I'm back to being me. And although some actors, you know do get into themselves [00:26:00] and and and and become this whole person right from the start start, you know, I tend to sort of I can be me back to me very easily. So we get to show time. What are some highlights for you? What? What are some of the things that you can remember? Uh, just some of the two girls have been spectacular. Um, I remember the very first, the Russian Miss Rush, who won [00:26:30] very first year, just outstanding, you know, And, um and as we've gone through the years, they got even more and more extravagant and outstanding. You know, Miss France, last last time up in Auckland here, it was just incredible. The costumes just blew me away. Um, so, um, and you get quite a variety. So it's been there's lots of highlights. There's lots and lots of highlights. Um, [00:27:00] and it will be it's gonna be sad when it's the like, because this is the last one. It's gonna be very sad to say goodbye. Yes. What? What are your thoughts? Because we we are coming up to the last queen of the whole universe pageant. Um, it is It's sad, but we've done it for 10 years, and we should be very proud of what we've done And what? How much money we've raised over the 10 years. Um and, you know, I'm [00:27:30] very thankful for the people that I've met. Um, you know, I wouldn't have met Jonathan or Kevin or, um and, uh, lots of the other boys. You know, um and girls, um, and it's it's just been a really nice experience, and it would be sad to say goodbye, but 10 years probably is time to to move on. Um, let's go out of her bank. You know, go on a high, and it's really important. Um, too. So I think we [00:28:00] you know, we can be proud of what? What we've actually achieved.

IRN: 464
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/qwu_trevor_hynes.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003898
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089192
TITLE: Trevor Hynes - Queen of the Whole Universe
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Trevor Hynes
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Auckland; Queen of the Whole Universe; Trevor Hynes; drag; performance; theatre
DATE: 8 April 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Trevor talks about being part of the Queen of the Whole Universe beauty pageant.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I was at a social function and, um, one of the other cast members, um said, um oh, I'm going into a show and I said, Oh, what sort of show is it? Oh, it's a drag show, you know? And I said, Oh, tell me more about it And, um, I thought, Oh, I've never been on stage or anything like that before And he was so enthusiastic that I said, Hey, I'd like to be involved. I'll give you a name to Jonathan He said. So a day later, I got a phone call from Jonathan, and I couldn't say no. [00:00:30] Um, he was so enthusiastic. He was saying, This is what my vision is. This is what I think it should be. Um, what country do you want to be? And I said, But I haven't decided. He said, Yes, you have. And, um, I said, Oh, OK, fine. Um, I said, I don't know what country I said. I'm not very good at my geography and stuff like that, he says. Well, you've got three or four countries and you're Guatemala. I went Guatemala. OK, where's Guatemala? What costumes do Guatemala have? What is the language [00:01:00] Um and I started to panic, and I said, OK, so can I have some time to think about it? No, because I need to get all my cast together. So you're it. And I went OK, Jonathan, that's fine. I'd like to be involved, so yeah, that's where it came about. Have you done any performance like that before? No, I hadn't. Um, and I thought that this was an opportunity of being able to do that being a person who came [00:01:30] out as gay late in life, Um, I thought this is maybe, um, something that I can do and say, Well, this is me. I am what I am. And, um, this is where it all came about. For me. Yeah, that's a big leap. I mean, from somebody that has not gone and done any performance work to them being on stage and being in drag on stage. True. True. My, my, I have a background in, um, venue management [00:02:00] and everything like that. I've seen it all how it's all put together and that sort of thing, but never ever been involved on that stage thing. And I think talking with Jonathan and knowing what his vision was of the show and what his goals were inspired me to be involved. And I'm so proud to be able to say that I've been in every show and I'm looking forward to this final mega one because I can say I've done it all. I've been on that [00:02:30] journey with you, Jonathan. And this is what what it's all about, You know, we have enjoyed ourselves that first show How many people were participating? Oh, I can't remember the numbers, but there were very few backstage people. Um, we actually got dressed on stage. It was only at two girls that were allowed dressing rooms, so we were on stage getting our makeup on behind the curtains. Um, and I just remember, um, [00:03:00] there were dozens of people. I don't know how many people were there, but there were a small amount compared with what there is now. But I just remember that first time, um, getting the makeup on being there at 23 o'clock in the afternoon, um, sitting around, getting made up. And then they said, right, you got to get your gowns on. Um, 20 minutes to curtain. Well, my makeup wasn't finished. I hadn't got dressed. I didn't have my wig on. Um, and then it was five minutes to curtain. My wig still [00:03:30] wasn't on my zip got stuck. Um, and my dresser is saying, we've got time, We've got time. And I started to panic. Just as they said, The curtains going up, my wig went on. I stood in in line where I should be, and my legs were shaking. And as soon as that curtain went up and the roar from the audience forgot about it, you know, and that's what it was all about. You could see the camaraderie right from that start. And that's where it is right now. [00:04:00] How do you think that camaraderie came into being? I think it is that we are all there for the same reason. Um, nobody wants to outdo anybody else while while there is that competition in Act two. I think everybody wants to be part of it. Um, and they just enjoy being around each other. And that camaraderie I've never, ever been in an organisation where that camaraderie stays even outside [00:04:30] of Queen of the whole universe itself. We can meet at various functions in the community, and we're just like brothers and sisters. You know, um and we just we all get on really well and I, I just I think this is something that Jonathan has created. That first show. Where was it? It was held at Sky City. Yeah. And, um, not much room. Um, and you know very well. Very few seats compared with what there is now. Um and, um, yeah, it [00:05:00] it, um It was just all new. And here we were walking through, um, you know, the casino upstairs and our high heels and everything like that and and going to rehearsals, you know? And I thought, Oh, you know, I wonder if I meet somebody that I know and that sort of thing, you know? But we didn't care. It didn't really matter, you know? We were there to do a job, and, um, look forward to it. Have you done drag before? No. Never. I had never done drag until I put my dress on When I did Queen of the [00:05:30] whole Pacific. What were the things that you learned immediately about being dragged? What were the I don't know how women do it. Um because it's so stressful. And it takes me about four hours to put my makeup on. Anyway, um, you know, but I, I think it was just, um it was all new and learning things. And, you know, today I can put my own makeup on, but then I couldn't. I had to have people do it for me. And I guess the whole thing of actually moving in heels [00:06:00] moving in heels, That was, um, a an experience. Um, I started with very, very low heels. Um, you could never get your shoes to fit you from anywhere except Ronnie's out down south. Um, and, um and And we were all going out there getting our shoes because they've all got big feet down there. And, um so we came back with shoes and we had started with small heels. And then some of the the [00:06:30] more game guys or girls in the show started getting higher heels. So we all started getting higher heels as well, and, um yeah, it, um it takes a little bit to get used to. Um, believe me, it's not easy. And for one who has fallen off my high heels at rehearsal, um, being taken away by an ambulance. Um, everything like that. Um, it's not easy on heels, but yeah, that happened in rehearsals. [00:07:00] So what happened there? And then we were just doing rehearsals and for some unknown reason, I don't know whether my heel got stuck in a hole in the floor or whether I just lost balance. I went down and went to save myself with my arm and my arm dislocated. My elbow popped out. Everything like that. And I Yeah, I could just see that my whole time with Queen, the whole universe was ended. I thought Jonathan's not going to want me in there. You know, I my [00:07:30] arms broken everything like that. You know, the ambulance came here. Were all the guys in shorts in high heels, Um, hovering around me and these ambulance guys arriving just looking and thinking what is going on here? And I'm lying on the floor in pain with my high heels on, um, they took me to hospital in an ambulance. Um, I was in hospital for two days. Um, and I performed with a cast on [00:08:00] um, and Jonathan said Yes. You can still be in the show I was Miss Argentina. Um, and I had this, um, plaster on and 22 or three of the cast, um, decided I needed to have sort of a a sleeve to look like my gown over the plaster. Everything. It was great because everybody sort of looked after me. And, um, yeah, it was good. And, um, the situation I ended up being, um, mis congeniality. [00:08:30] And they told me that I just got it out of sympathy. But, you know, I think I was beautiful that time anyway. So, you know, I don't care what anybody says. Have there been any other kind of accidents like that in the in the time that you've known? Just me. And, um, Jonathan loves to be able to tell that story to everybody. Yeah, um, you know, when I look back, it is funny. Um, I feel I've made history. Um, and that's just part of it, you know? So, um, but yeah, it it was just a freak accident. That's all it was. And, um, [00:09:00] you know it it just brought everybody together, and, um, yeah, it was great. It's interesting, because I I was just thinking, um, some of the headgear, which is, I think has got a two metre by two metre kind of limit to it. But that could actually be quite dangerous, couldn't it? Trying to balance your head gear plus your heels and then anything else that you've got on and trying to lift your gown to try and walk down stairs and stuff like that. You've got so much to think about. And, um yeah, II. I don't understand how [00:09:30] there hasn't been any more accidents. I guess we're all, um, professional now in our high heels and stuff like that. But yeah, Um, yeah, I don't know why, but, um, there's been a lot of great headgear, stuff like that that could have had accidents, but not nothing at all. Can you describe some of your most favourite head gear from the pageants? My favourite headgear? Yeah, There was one that was, um, sort of sunflowers, and it was all lit [00:10:00] up. Um, you know, there there was, um, huge. Um, I don't know butterflies, and there's there's been poppies. And, um, there's been Carmen's head. Um, you know it It's just that people are so creative. So in terms of your own head gear. Do you make that yourself? No, I don't. No, I get it made for me. Um, last year I was Miss Thailand. Um, so I had one of those big pointy [00:10:30] things there. Somebody made it for me. Um, I one year, I didn't have headgear, but I went and approached the Bumble Bee Company. Um, because I was Miss New Zealand and the Bumble Bee or the Buzzy Bee is an icon to New Zealand. So I had one that I could ride on coming on stage, and I had a small one under my arm, and the audience just went berserk, you know, because, um I guess I I wanted to wear it on my head, but it was too, too [00:11:00] big. But it was just like a small motor car. And, um yeah, I. I just liked doing that as well. Um, but yeah, the head gear, uh, situation is is just is great. It's just another, um, part of the show. Do you find it easy to attract sponsors, like, say, the the Bumble Bee Company? Yeah, I, um Well, the thing is, when I first came in as queen of the whole Pacific. Um, I just looked in the phone book for a dressmaker, and I found one out in New Lynn, [00:11:30] and I just phoned her, explained to her what was going on, and she said, Just come and see me and she made my gown for nothing. And then, um, through colleagues, when I worked at the edge at a a centre, um, Denise ran from world. Um, they came on board for two years in a row and did my gown for me. I was Miss Spain and Miss Argentina and never charged me. Um, And then I went to roses, um, in Green Lane, and for [00:12:00] two years, they did my gowns for me. Um, and it's just great to see that they don't want any reward for it. Um, and they were happy to do it. They were just so happy to do what I wanted to do, you know, and their input and everything like that. And, um yeah, I. I think if you're in an Act two situation where you need a lot more money, it is hard to get sponsorship. But if you're doing it just for your gown, or maybe your head gear It's probably [00:12:30] a lot easier because you can approach single type, uh, companies, whereas the other girls that go into Act two need to go to that more corporate situation. And it's really hard to get the corporate money these days. So when you go to a designer, how do you express what you want? So, for instance, if you take one of the countries that you've been involved with, um, Miss Miss Argentina, I wanted to be, um, Eva Peron. But my name was, um [00:13:00] um I, um So, um, I wanted to create that, um, Miss Argentina and I wanted to have that microphone and be able to address the the country and everything like that. I wanted a big white gown. You know, I guess it's because I've never been a bride. And it was a big white gown, Um, with all the frills and everything like that with my broken arm. Um, but the thing is that I just said to them, You know, this is the country. This is what [00:13:30] I'm trying to portray as a character, and they just come up with it for me. That's amazing. It just was amazing to get a world. You know, an international company on board just to do that for me, you know? And I only did it for two years because I thought you can't keep going back and asking, You know, um, and I've tried to do that, so Yeah, And who comes up with the names? Oh, we get them ourselves. You know, innuendos. Uh, it's good to see the innuendos up on the screen. And people then [00:14:00] realise what you're trying to say. Um, but yeah. Miss Thailand was I was mis wanting some young guy. So, um yeah, that was I was too, you know. So, Miss Tale, she was beautiful. So yeah, what about audience reaction? Can you recall what the audience was like on that first show? Amazing. They were stomping. They were clapping. Um, we came out and we did. The first song [00:14:30] was I am what I am. And the audience just went crazy. That gave the adrenaline to us as performers and just watching the guys. As soon as they heard it, they were pumping and the gowns were flowing and and the personalities were coming out. The characters were coming out, and at the end of the night. It was just amazing. It really was. And to be able to go up in the foyer afterwards in our gowns and meet [00:15:00] the audience is just superb, you know? And we just go out on the town and our gowns. You know, it's the one time where we can go out and and feel great because we're all in a group and we feel safe together, you know? It's good. Yeah. When you were in rehearsal for the first show, did you have any idea that the audience would react that way? No, not at all. I. I didn't know what type of audience would come come to the show. Um, I invited [00:15:30] my friends. Some of them said, Oh, that's not really me. Um, I don't want to go along and see guys in dresses and stuff like that. Um, some of those people have come since because they know what the, um what the show is all about and that it's not smutty or anything like that, You know that it is a professional show. Um, and but no, you didn't know what the audience was going to be. We'd never done it before. Um Jonathan would. He always [00:16:00] said to us, The audience is gonna go mad at look, the the rehearsals is looking good, you know? And you're just gonna blow them away, and we couldn't see that, but now we know we can. You know, Every time that curtain goes up, we just get out there, and, um, we try to make the audience get more and more enthusiastic every year. What's Jonathan's directing style like? Oh, he gets grumpy every now and again. But no, no, he's really, really good. He knows what [00:16:30] he wants. Um, we know what he wants, but we we're there to have fun as well. And there are times where we get told off to shut up and listen and that sort of thing. Um, but this is what it's all about. The camaraderie. Um, and we listen to Jonathan. And if we didn't listen to Jonathan, you wouldn't get the product that happens on the night. So, you know, his style is good. Um, we I guess we we've trained him, uh, to where he's got now. Um, you know, he he must [00:17:00] have learned something from us, as we've learned from him. Um, so Yeah. So it's one thing having a one-off pageant and it being successful but having 10 and having it over multiple years. How has that been achieved? Uh, I think it is because Jonathan has kept the majority of the cast who believe in his, um, vision. His goals believe [00:17:30] in the, um, places that we are raising funds for. It's close to our hearts. Um, and I think that we want to see it happen every year because we get a lot out of it ourselves. It's that camaraderie. It's It's the raising of the funds. It's being together twice a day, twice a week for I don't know how many weeks we rehearse. And it's just being a big family. Um, and I, I think that, um, it it's just [00:18:00] made it, um, people would say, You know, you can only do it two or three times. We we will have done it by 10 times. Um, I know it's the mega. I know Jonathan saying it's the final. Um, I guess you have to stop at some stage. Um, I guess Miss World has gone on for years and years and years, you know, um, take us to to the USA and and tour us. Then we can keep it going. You know, um, we've toured to Wellington. It's been great, you know, Um and, [00:18:30] um it makes us feel good people coming to see us in Wellington, you know, they fill the theatre as well. Do the audiences differ from, say, Auckland to Wellington? I think the Auckland audience is more enthusiastic. Wellington, I don't think had seen a show like that before. Um, and it was all new to them. While they've got drag queens down there, they'd never seen a production like that. Um, you know, we we went down there to one year [00:19:00] and just performed on a small stage in the foyer, not the whole show. And that's where I think Jonathan realised that there was room for us to go to Wellington. Um, because you could see that people were interested in and what we did at that time. So, yeah, we just did a couple of the, um, opening numbers and everything like that, you know, in our gowns and stuff like that. So, yeah, that would have been an interesting experience, because you would have been pretty close to the audience. We were We were, you know, they were They were there, right there. And, [00:19:30] um, we didn't really have dressing rooms to to dress in. Uh, it was just a big room, and everybody was just throwing their wigs off and putting their bras on and everything like that and then going out and finding they didn't have their bra on. Um, but yeah, it was It was great to be able to be in amongst it, and we were able to walk around the people as well. Um, and and get that audience reaction as well. So, for you personally, um, you said at the start that, uh, you were late coming out. How much time had [00:20:00] elapsed between coming out and actually being part of the pageant? Uh, probably five years. Yeah, five years. Um, I'd just come to Auckland as well. Um, and hadn't got involved in in the community as such. Um, and this really, um, bought it out for me. Um, I had just got into a relationship. Um, and my ex partner didn't want me to do the first show. [00:20:30] Um, however, from the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th show, he was involved. So you know it It it just created more. And it was good to be able to have, um that somebody did, um, agree with what I was doing at the end. Um, because the first one was you shouldn't really go out and do it again. Sort of thing, You know, um but I'm glad that we both did it because, um, we both enjoyed [00:21:00] it. So, yeah, what was his reservation for? Because I was in a gown. I was in a gown, but then he had no hesitation in going and getting into a gown as well the following year. Sort of thing. You know what I mean? Um, so I, I think it was that, um, getting used to it, I guess. Um, because he probably hadn't seen a lot of guys in gowns. Can you describe for me the, uh, transformation [00:21:30] process of going from you into a a drag? II, I think, um, while while that character might be still deep down in me as soon as I start putting makeup and that on, that's when the character starts. Um, and you don't see Trevor when when dusty goes out? Um, because Dusty takes over, Um, and she takes over a hell of a lot, you know, Um, but yeah. I. I think it's still down there, but yeah, [00:22:00] you've got to split it. You do have to split that. Dusty and Trevor are two different people. Do you ever find that they kind of cross over, or are they very clear? Demarcation? No, not clear demarcation? No, not clear demarcation. Um, I guess they support each other. Yeah. So what's the biggest thing that you've taken away from the pageants, I guess. More confidence in myself. [00:22:30] Um, to be able to go out and do things like, um, I have been asked to compare and, um, that sort of thing in drag. Um, I probably would never have done that, but I feel more confident going out and doing that. Um, it's given me, um, also an understanding of the community of where, where people are, where people are at in their lives, where they're at with their sexuality. Um, because you see some some guys who are new [00:23:00] into, uh, coming into the show who aren't really sure. Um and, um, they they just want to come in and do the show, and then they'll leave and not come back again. Maybe it wasn't for them, but then you'll get the guys that come in and say, Well, this is what I want And this is what it's all about. And it's that family situation again. They can see that camaraderie. They can see the friendships that can be made. They can see. Um, you know that that there's potential and and that there's [00:23:30] a lot out of queen of the whole universe that you can get, um, in other in other sectors of of, um, social life as well. You know, um, you know, with the camaraderie, I remember the first show that I did Queen of the whole Pacific. Um, I got my gown made. It was big doing rehearsals. I was losing weight. Um, and Steve Lawrence who, um, I had never met um came up to me and said, Hey, Dale, he said, I love you, gown. [00:24:00] I think we could just tweak it a little bit for you, and he took it home for me. He adjusted it. And he just made me feel really good on that night because he took care. You know what I mean, it was, um you could see that somebody cared about it. They didn't want to see me look stupid. I didn't know what it looked like because I'd never worn a dress before. Um, and it was too big, I guess. And he just tucked it, Did things to it for me. Um, and Steve, Steve has been there for me. Um, [00:24:30] over all these years, he's done my makeup. If I've had to go out, um, he's had input into my gowns, Um, and and he'll tell me if I need to do this or I need to do that. And I've respected him right from that day one where he, I guess, respected me to make sure that I look good on stage. And you know that that that's where that, um, camaraderie and the family situation comes into the show and inclusiveness as well. Inclusiveness. Yeah, it is. Yeah, [00:25:00] it is. I mean, I find it really interesting that, um no matter what gender or sexuality, everyone is welcome. Totally. You know, that was what Jonathan I think set out to do was he wanted to encourage and get people to do things that they may have never done before and whether that's backstage doing dressing backstage, putting props out makeup, um, somebody making the cups of tea and putting the biscuits out for rehearsal. He's brought in so many people [00:25:30] who want to be involved, but not necessarily have to put on a gown and get out there. But they are still part of it. And you can never, ever, um, dismiss those people that work backstage. Those people work their asses off, you know, we take the glory, but they're working their asses off to make sure that we get to do what we have to do and everything is there for us. I imagine, actually, just manoeuvring some of [00:26:00] those head pieces totally, totally, you know, and and trying to put them on us when we are saying watch our earrings, watch our shoes, Don't muck up my dress. But put that bloody thing back on my head properly, you know, um, so, yeah, it's, um it's made up of so many people and so many, um, different cultures. Um, all that sort of thing. The diversification of people is just amazing. [00:26:30] And and, you know, um, I guess that's what Jonathan set out to do was to give people the experience in situations that they may have never have come up against had they just just been out in the community. And that's where I feel that I have learned as well. While I've still got a background in venue management and that I'm still learning and watching the stage manager, I'm watching wardrobe. I'm watching people [00:27:00] doing lighting and stuff like that because it interests me. And it's now making me even more. Uh, I've got more knowledge of the whole thing. And that's where I think we're all. We're all getting that now. Over the years that it's been running, have you seen a change in the type of person wanting to participate? Yes. Yeah. Um, we're getting a lot of the younger ones now, I. I guess I'm probably the third oldest [00:27:30] in the show. Um, and you're getting a lot a lot of young ones coming through now. Um, but then you're still getting those, um, 30 to 40 year old ones as well. Um, and I guess it's their way of wanting to be part of the community in a different way than going to a bar drinking, all that sort of stuff. You know, What are your thoughts? Um, for somebody that that that came out, Uh, a bit older, looking at some of the [00:28:00] the the younger ones coming through the show. I wish I was coming out. Now, I wish I was born later. Uh, so much easier for those guys coming out. Um, while I say are much easier for them coming out. It's not, um, hidden as it was in my time. Um, yes, I guess they have those insecurities in that as well. Should I come out? Should I not come out? Um, and, um, [00:28:30] there's a lot of agencies and all that now that are there to be able to help them. Um, in that situation, when I knew I was gay, um, years years back when I was a child I I knew I was gay. Um, but the thing is that, um there was nothing there. And you were too scared because it was frowned upon. Um, and I guess that's why I came out at 45. Um, yeah, II. I just [00:29:00] wish that the opportunity was there. Um, maybe my life may have been different Um, yeah, but I admire the young ones these days. They you know, they they can just take it out there. They're accepted, and it doesn't matter a damn whether they're gay or not. You look around, you see them with heterosexuals, all that sort of thing, and and it doesn't matter. But with us, um, I lost a lot of friends when I came out as gay. Um, [00:29:30] and you know, people said to me, we used to go fishing together, and I say, Yeah, so Yeah, but you're gay. And I said, But what did I do to the fish, or what did I do to you? Or I still hung the rod over the over the boat like you did, you know? And I caught fish. What's the difference? You know, But I guess it said insecurity in my age group. Um, whereas in the younger age group these days, it doesn't seem to be that hard for them. [00:30:00] But, you know, they still must have their own hangups. Well, not hang ups. Their insecurities. Really? Yeah. It must also be quite nice to be in a situation. Say, with this pageant, where it's cross generational, you don't actually get that in many places. You don't. You don't. That's right. You know, we range from I think about 64. 65 is the oldest, and I think the youngest is probably, I don't know, 18 19. So it's a great cross section, Um and, [00:30:30] um, a lot of different professions, Um, and and those profession, you know, we using isn't the word, but we use each other for things because we can offer things, um, with our own skills and that to help others do you know what I mean? And I think that's where it comes in as well that as a community in a community, Um, so we're in the gay community, but we're in the community of queen, the whole universe, and we help each other [00:31:00] over the 10 pageants. Have you seen, or can you think of people that have started and then really developed? Are there are there individuals that you can think about that that just really blossomed? Oh, totally. Totally. You see them, uh, blossom every year, they they might be still in that same character, but they're putting a different character into the country. Um, but some will come in Very, very quiet. And now you can't stop them. You know, [00:31:30] they're out there. They want to be in front. You know, um and good on them good on them, but it it's just coming in, knowing the boundaries, um, knowing other people's boundaries, where you can go and what your boundaries are and put those together. And this is what's formed the show, I guess. So what do you think will happen after this 10th show? Well, I think and And the curtain goes down, you're gonna have a lot of drag queens crying and the makeup's gonna be rolling down the face. [00:32:00] We're all going to have to get our makeup redone. When we go out after the show. I think it's going to be a real happy time. Sad time. It will be said when that curtain goes down for the last time for the queen of the whole universe. Um, I can't imagine that Jonathan will not do something else. Maybe in a different format. But the queen of the whole universe. Um, I guess it's time for it to end, [00:32:30] but it's going to be a very, very sad time, especially for I think there's four of us who are originals, and that's going to be really hard because we've been there from day one. We've seen it grow. We've seen everything that's happened there. Um, but, you know, we're going to have a good time. It will be an awesome time because, you know, this has got to be the big one. If you had an opportunity to speak to all those people in the dark on that evening what What would What would you mean? [00:33:00] You mean the casting crew or people out there in the dark? Yeah, I would say to the audience, We have given you 10 performances of the best, and, um, you they have helped us create it by being there and supporting us. Um, they have given life to a lot of people. Uh, they've given, um, people more, um, feelings [00:33:30] for themselves, that they can actually get out there and do things, whether it be, as I said before backstage or front of house, that sort of thing. Um I think, um, it's one opportunity that we didn't let go and we did it. And I think we can all be proud, and I think Even if the the ones that were in the first show that are no longer if they come on that night, they are still part of us. And we can say [00:34:00] this is what we did.

IRN: 465
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/qwu_jacki_byrd.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003897
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089191
TITLE: Jacki Byrd - Queen of the Whole Universe
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Jacki Byrd
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Auckland; Jacki Byrd; Queen of the Whole Universe; drag; performance; theatre
DATE: 15 April 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Jacki talks about being part of the Queen of the Whole Universe beauty pageant.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: It's about a whole lot of fun. It's about dressing up for me. Um, that's the main thing. And, uh, it's about a great bunch of people who all like to have fun. And it's our opportunity, I suppose, to have five minutes of fame for total amateurs. And, you know, it's quite unique. I think. Well, it's not unique. But for me, that's the perfect opportunity to, you know, just go out there, be outrageous, have as much fun as you can. Um, and it's for a good cause. So yeah, it's win win. How did you get involved? [00:00:30] I went along to the very first one, the queen of the whole Pacific because I had a friend competing and or participating, shall we say? And I loved the show. And so I just found out about it and and enter the next year. What was that first show like? I've never seen anything like it. Um I mean, it was a long time ago, so I don't really remember the details, but I just remember the atmosphere. I just remember the cheering and the laughter and the sense of community, I suppose. Yeah. Um, it is special [00:01:00] when you know people in it when you have friends in it. And I think you know, that's what another great thing about it. Because a lot of the crowd is our friends and family. And I think that really, uh, adds to the atmosphere that is created on the night because, you know, there's so much there's a not audience participation as much. But there's audience enthusiasm like, you know, like nothing. It's it's fabulous. The audience really carries the event, I think, in a big way as well, as well as our enthusiasm. You know, you're getting a lot of feedback, which is fantastic. [00:01:30] So that's how I mean, I can't remember the actual format, but I you know, I think it was probably pretty similar to how it is now. You know, you've got big opening numbers, big finale numbers, and you've got the individual, um, girls in between, you know, strutting their stuff and giving it all they've got. So when did it tweak for you that you wanted to be a part of it? Oh, probably when I saw that very first. Oh, absolutely. I mean, I. I love to dress up. I've always been a dress up, girl. I just You know, any party that's a fancy dress? I'll be there. Yeah. So, [00:02:00] um, for me, it was just like, Oh, my gosh, I wanna be You know, I wanna get up there as well. I mean, I was terrified the first time. Just terrified, but exhilarated as well. You know, it's just like anything that you do for the first time. I mean, I was high as a kite all night long because of the, you know, the adrenaline rush and stuff like that. I remember that very clearly. Have you done anything like that before? No, no, no. Definitely not, You know, tiny little bit of theatrics way back when I was 10 years old at school or something like that, But nothing in between. And it's really interesting the the whole concept of the show where [00:02:30] it's it's open to any gender and you've got boys being girls, girls being boys a mixture. That's quite that's quite special. Oh, absolutely. I love that about it. It's not exclusive at all. It's very inclusive, and I think that's essential. Um, in today's society, you know, we're not just a, you know, a queer community. We're a part of the wider New Zealand community. And, um and I also think that it's a great expression of all the variations on, um, people's not just their sexuality, but their expression, you know, because [00:03:00] and I love that about it. I love that we've got straight guys and straight girls who are totally comfortable and and and have the same, um, streaks of madness. I suppose you know can't claim it all ourselves in the queer community. Um, and, yeah, they're a great part of the show. And I think it, um um I think it's good for us to be inclusive like that. So the first year that you were part of the show What What were you doing? What role did you have the first year I was [00:03:30] Miss Mexico? I hope I get this right. Um, I was a Virgin of Guadalupe. I was Margarita Manita. Yeah, and that was the best. I mean, the first year was the best for me. Um, because I had a fantastic woman called Justine, and, uh, she did my costume for me. So I won miss pins and needles that year, so Yeah, I know. It was fantastic. And it was great for Justine. Justine for us. She had a great time. Um, and she made me this most fantastic, uh, costume. And, um, she went down to Wellington as [00:04:00] well, actually, because when we did it right, because I was living in Wellington then as well. So I got dragged out the costume. We put her on again, then yeah, and like I said, it was just, you know, the whole thing was just when you do it the first time, it's just such a a huge adrenaline rush and not just adrenaline, but, you know, all the learning, all those dances for the first time and, um, freaking out about the costume, you know, working hours and hours and hours and being totally stressed about that. I mean, I actually did it for stress relief because I was at university at the time. So busy, busy, [00:04:30] busy trying to, you know, with my thinking brain. And so this was a brilliant release from all of that, you know, just, you know, working your body and a tap dance. Well, not tap dancing, but, you know, doing a dance routine. So it was a really good change, I suppose. Stress relief. Uh, different kind of stress and laughter. It was great. So can you explain to me how you begin to to create this persona? This, um, because I'm assuming the persona wasn't there to begin with. I mean, I think like for a lot [00:05:00] of people, as soon as you put on, you know, a pair of wacky sunglasses and a wig, it's very easy to, you know, that's how performers I think a lot of the time do. It's very easy for us to change our persona, and I think a lot of people have that in them. I certainly feel like I do. I love to put on costume to be someone else. And so for me, that's what it's all about as well. It's It's very easy to do that. Yeah, And the Virgin of Guadalupe was great. She was very demure and all that sort of thing. So she wasn't out there, you know, she was quite quiet for a drag queen. [00:05:30] Yeah, so it's just it's It's for me. It's just part of putting on the costume. What about even the name? Where did that come from? Oh, well, That's great imagination. I mean, people. Some of the names have just been outrageous. You know, you should read through some of the programmes. They just off the wall. I love that. Yeah, Margarita manager, I think was my best name. Yeah, And in terms of garments and head gear, Is that something that you make yourself or you got a dressmaker to make? Oh, she wasn't a dressmaker, but she she was a costume [00:06:00] designer. Um, but she used to work on things like Xena and things like that. So, you know, she had she had the great vision, and, um, she sort of sent me in the right direction, and we started making it together, But then she wasn't really available, so I ended up finishing it off, you know, and I couldn't believe that you could turn a real estate sign into something as amazing as this, You know, it's great. Can you describe it? Um, well, you know, the vision of Guadalupe. She's the Mary, uh, with the radiating sun out around her. So, you know, that was just made out of real estate signs, you know, with stick on plastic for books [00:06:30] and things. She had a great imagination and she knew how to use, you know, really mundane things to to create a costume. Yeah. So and, uh, you know, one of the things I loved was they hit the halo was an old so with fairy lights stuck in it. I mean, it actually didn't show up that well on stage because the lights are so bright, you know, it was it was quite quite a work of art. I think in itself it was fun. Yeah, So I mean, and the range of costumes has been incredible. I mean, I don't know if you've seen the show last year, for example, but some of the [00:07:00] heat because it's originally it wasn't so much a head gear focus. It was just your whole costume. And then it shifted a little bit towards just head gear. Well, that's not just head gear, but that's the main focus. And some of them have just become, you know, totally amazing. Egypt's last year, for example, it was amazing. And head piece, it was beautiful. So with your head gear, how did you manage to kind of physically move with that? It was pretty tricky. It was it was a backpack. Basically, it was a frame. So I wore it on my back. Like a backpack. Yeah. And [00:07:30] it was It was that wide. So it was very Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I had to. Oh, yeah. Sorry. And I tried to duck down to get under doors and things like that or almost walk on my knees to get around the place, so it was quite tricky. It must have made a choreography quite tricky as well. No, because you're only wearing that for the for the parade of nations. So you're walking. Basically, you don't have to dance in the huge works of art. Don't. Well, some girls do, but I I didn't. [00:08:00] So how far out before the performance are you actually preparing for the show? Oh, well, I guess that varies a lot on on people's organisation skills. It should be a long time, but it probably never is. Um, as long as you Yeah, should. I mean, I'm always a bit of a last minute girl, so Yeah, but this year I'm gonna try and do it differently. I'm gonna try and be organised because it just adds to your stress levels. Really Yeah, and I don't want it to be stressful. I want it to be as much fun as possible. So But it does take months. Yeah, it takes months of [00:08:30] you to spare time because, you know, of course, it's just what you do at home in the evenings. In most cases, most people don't get professionals, and it's mostly we make things ourselves. And when you say stressful, What what kind of stresses are there? Well, for me, it's like I'm not a brilliant artist or anything, So I have to work out how to turn mundane pieces of object into something that looks fantastic, you know, looks like a you know, part of your your country's or, you know, part of the national dress of your country. [00:09:00] And so it's always a, you know, stress a stress as I'm trying to work out how to how to create something. So I mean, I like it, but it's it's still a job in itself. It's great. It's part of the creative process, isn't it? Can you describe, um, the rehearsal period? How how does that work? I love the rehearsals. Rehearsals are fantastic. Twice a week, normally in the evenings or the afternoon, Sunday afternoon, Wednesday night or something, And they're just so much fun. And [00:09:30] I love working with a group of people, you know, working out the dance routines. And the choreographers that we have come in and teach us are fantastic. And, you know, they're turning people who can't dance for shit, and, uh, something that people like enough on stage to, you know, pay money and laugh. Clap at the end. So you know all our hats off to them. They do a fantastic job, and we try, You know, we work hard. We do the best we can when none of us are professional dancers. You know, the occasional time that we've had. Um, you know, professional dancers in there. It's like, Oh, it's fabulous. We love them. We love [00:10:00] them. We just think they're so talented and want to stand right behind them. So follow the moves. So, yeah, I love I love the rehearsals. They're great. It's a beautiful way to get to, you know, get to know a group of people. Um, and I guess one of the kind of other sides of things is to me I love the uber femininity of it like I. I The reason I am part I want to be a drag queen is because I want to try to out the boys who are trying to be as feminine as possible, you know? So here I am as a woman dressing up as a man who's dressing up as a woman. You know, I don't [00:10:30] exactly do how to do all that, but, um, I love it. I love to try to be, you know, uber fare and just, you know, just over the top. It's fun. Can you describe some of the things that you would do to be that kind of personality? Uh, well, you know, I don't have to do that. Like I said, it's just part of, you know, dressing up and having fun and playing and playing. But, um, you know, I love it that, uh, that my tits are real, and these aren't they, [00:11:00] um, and I'm never as tall as them, of course. So that's always pissing me. I always try to get taller, taller shoes because they always out beat me on the height, and their legs are normally much better than mine, you know. But Oh, well, at least I've got real tits. What's the highest heels you've been in? Uh, I. I don't know what I I measured some, but I saw some at, um at first scene the other month that I Well, last year was the other month. It was quite a while ago that I was dead keen to get on, but I thought that that would actually be a bit dangerous. But, you know, you go for what? What's that [00:11:30] about? Yeah, Yeah. So yeah. Try and get 20 centimetres on Easy. But I'd still but they're all wearing 20 centimetres as well, So I mean, look how naturally tall you are and add another 20 seconds. I've got a chance. But, you know, that's why I guess that's why the headdress is so fabulous. Because you just get your height with the headdress. Fabulous wigs. Can you talk to me about the the whole kind of transformation going from everyday you to stage you? Is there a difference? Uh, [00:12:00] is there a difference? Yeah. Yeah, there is. I mean, I, I I'm very shy normally. And, you know, I don't I'm not a, uh, extroverted person. Like I'm quite an introvert. But like I say, I think in lots of us there are. There is a performer who wants to get, you know, yelling to get out. And so for me, that's an opportunity and a permission to do that. Permission to be, um uh, a little bit naughty and and sexy and extroverted. Yeah, so I like that about it. [00:12:30] But it only happens as soon as you step on stage. Really? Hm. So not in the preparation. Not in the makeup, Not not particularly. No, no. For me. It's just when you walk on stage and maybe maybe at the party afterwards, you you carry it on and play around with a little bit, but no, it's Yeah, it's a performance. Can you recall when you first took part in the show and that first moment of walking on stage? What was that like? That was it was terrifying. Yeah, my heart was racing [00:13:00] and, um, extremely, extremely high. Like that carried me all night long. You know, I didn't have to drink or anything like that. It was just, like, stayed up till dawn and just Yeah, a natural high. It was incredible. And I have to admit that I was disappointed in the second year because I didn't get it as much. You know, I was like, Oh, second year, it was still the rush and the fun and the adrenaline, but not to the same extent. I. I remember that. I remember being able to wear, you know, really having sore sore feet. Um, but not even caring that first year was huge. Um, so I [00:13:30] suppose you do get used to a little bit, but not not as much as it's like routine or anything now. But I do remember the adrenaline from the first year was incredible. Do you have any, uh, things like rituals before you go on stage that you do, Or, uh um, no, not I don't have rituals, but I suppose for me, it's like, um, you know, that whole thing less is more. It's like I. I go for the opposite of that. It's like you can never have enough. You know, you can never have enough lipstick. You can never have enough gels. You can? [00:14:00] Yeah. So pile it on. I just keep piling it on. Yeah, that is not a ritual, but it's just you know. That's sort of what my mindset on, Just like bring it on. Can you describe for me, uh, the day of the performance and actually going through getting made up costume? And how how does that all work? I love. I love that. That's part of the show that we know we get makeup and and and all that attention. It's fantastic. It's so nice of them. I mean, it's not not so nice of them. I mean, I know it's part of the show, but it's it's It's [00:14:30] like I say, it's another one of those treats. It's another one of those special things that you get from it because, I mean, and the other thing I mean, I've been I've been taught how to put on makeup by the boys. You know, I, I I'm not a particularly, you know, dolly girl, uh, day to day. So I like that. You know, I get I was I remember the boys teaching me how to put makeup on a few years ago. You know, I used to blush around here and shape up your face and all that sort of I had no idea. It's quite funny that the boys are teaching me how to do that. Does it take a while? The transformation? It always [00:15:00] takes longer than you think. Yeah, it's the girls are really great at the makeup, but, um, you know, they've got a lot to get through. So we, um I like to get into the early slots because then you can relax because they're going helpfully they at the end. It is a bit of a oh, absolutely, Yeah, yeah, yeah. The one girl does the foundation, and you move on. One girl does the lipstick and another does the eyeliner. Yeah, definitely a production line. But, you know, and and that and that makes our faces all look similar. So, you know, because we are a chorus, so this, you know, that works. The girls [00:15:30] who are going through the second stage, they often do their own makeup. But I'm glad I don't have to do that because, you know, I can't brush my you know, I can't wax my eyebrows down and all that. It's quite a professional thing. What about the moment before the curtain goes up for the first time and you're on stage, you can hear the audience in the front. What is that feeling like? Oh, I love it. I love it. It's the anticipation is fantastic. Uh, you know, but your nerves are on end as well, because you've got to try [00:16:00] and remember everything. Um, you're hyped up, and but you feel like you're part of a community, you know, and you're working together as a team. And I love that. I love that. You know, all of us are are part of the show that, you know, we are working as as one. Uh, I like the spontaneity of it as well. I mean, even though it's all rehearsed, you know, the dance, et cetera. You never know what what's gonna happen. Jonathan and, um, Kevin are fantastic in their roles. And, um, yeah, it's a great It's a great team spirit. If I'm pulling together and you know, playing their [00:16:30] part, What's Jonathan like directing? What's his directing style? Like? He's also I mean, I. I love how he is. Um, totally professional, but extremely relaxed, like, you know, he loses it every now and then. But, you know, that just adds to his charm. Really. Um, as to his mother, Uh, Yeah, he's got you know, he's got the big picture, but he's also flexible enough to let us be ourselves. And he wants us to be ourselves, you know? So it's a It's a great balance of keeping [00:17:00] it together enough so that you've got a cohesive show But letting us be the individuals that we are it seems to be quite special that something can last for, you know, a good number of years and 10 shows and people will keep coming back for more. You mean the crew or the audience or both. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it's great, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not quite. I mean, I'm not sure. I, I sometimes I wish I was part of the audience again. Um, but I couldn't [00:17:30] resist being part of the show every year. I think Oh, maybe that's it. But every year I'm like, Oh, no, Oh, no. I want I want to do it again. I want to do it again. I mean, it was the same with the hero parade. You know, as soon as you as soon as you were in the hero parade, you didn't want to just watch anymore you know why would you it? So much more fun to be part of the part of it. So what are the audiences like? I suppose they're out for a night of fun, which is great, because that's what we're out there for as well. And I love that a lot of people know, you know, a lot of people [00:18:00] who come and people who know people who are in the show because I think it it, um it lifts it, lifts the atmosphere a lot. Yeah, because we're all sharing it. We're sharing it on a personal level. You know, you're not just going to see a performance, you're going to see a friend who's out, you know, or a friend or a friend and all part of your community as well. A lot of the time? Not always. But so is that a big feeling in the production team, The idea of family and of sharing and connections [00:18:30] and community? I think I think so. Like, um, I was part of the Auckland swim team and so a lot of the people that I, some of the some of the boys who were on the show, were part of swim team as well, so that, you know, that was a really nice connection, because I knew them from outside. And But, you know, you get to know other people that you just sort of click with who you never know. You never know before, and I mean, I don't have close friendships with them outside the show, but I just love it when we see each other again. You know, you've got such a connection through the [00:19:00] show. So, um, I've made really, really close friends, but I, I do have great, um, feelings towards all the people who are in it. You know, you really feel like you're connected through the show. Is there much bitchiness or rivalry that goes on in? Oh, I don't know if there is seriously, but I mean, there is certainly superficially, but that's just part of the, you know, that's just part of the bickering and fun and the girls and the queens. And yeah, certainly I've never felt anything serious, but, [00:19:30] um, I haven't been part of the stage, you know, the second act. So maybe there's a little bit more serious rivalry there because it is a true competition you know, and I like that about it, too. I helped dress, um, one of the stage two, second stage girls, um, in Wellington and I. I loved that as well. I mean, her costumes were fantastic and Oh, I just, um I was devastated when she didn't win. She's so sort of. There's certainly been controversy about the winners. And I, you know, that's been that's been interesting, you know, because they are independent [00:20:00] judges and we've all got our idea of who should win, and it's not always the same. So the audience probably got quite that's right and have a different idea as well. So, yeah, Do you have any, um, favourite moments from the performances you've been in? Oh, definitely that. You know, some of the stage I keep saying Stage two, but they're not there. They're the the real competition girls who get through to Stage two. That's what I'm meaning and their shows [00:20:30] have been fantastic. That's and and and it's one of the tricky things is you've got to try and work out how to get into the audience to watch them because, um, you know you're meant to be backstage, but we have our ways and yeah, that's those are the highlights. You know, the amount of effort that they put in, um, to their costumes to the story and things like that and Miss Francis Show last year. And, you know, he went to such effort. It was fantastic. His costumes are amazing. And, um, II I really admire that. I really admire the, [00:21:00] um, amount of effort that they do and they put in and yeah, and some of them have just been fantastic. And Miss Scotland, you know, a few years ago, she was one of my favourites, and, um And then, of course, Miss Transylvania is one I missed. But I know I saw it afterwards, and that was just, you know, incredible. And lots of them loads and loads and loads. So the the second act is is to me the highlight, I think, as you know, from an external point of view for me, it's the song and dance and the dressing up. But when I think about [00:21:30] the rest of the show, that's those are the highlights. So what was, um, Scotland? Can you describe what Scotland was wearing and what they did? Well, she She has a classic tall beehive wig on, you know, about five stories high and, ah, I can't remember too much. But it was, I think it's David. Oh, excuse me, I'm wrong. But he has the best best face for stage. It's just so expressive and his personality shines out. So for me, it's his personality. You can just [00:22:00] get an audience, Um, right. Really engaged and right on his side, I think. And, um oh, he just pulls it off. It's just a natural. That's my highlight. You know, that's what I love about it. I can't remember the details. I don't remember the details, but I you know, I remember bagpipes and all. The usual Scottish, you know, Scottish themes. Yeah, that's the personality I remember. So coming up is the 10th and final pageant, and [00:22:30] I'm just wondering if you had any thoughts on that, Uh, I think it's important that things don't carry on forever. Same as sitcoms and things like that. You know, things do have a natural life. Um, you have to accept that, uh, and I'm not sure about, um, you know, everyone will be terribly disappointed as well, if it doesn't carry on. So, um, for me, I just like to take opportunities as they're as they're there. And, you know, this is, um perhaps [00:23:00] the final one. So that's why I couldn't miss out. Because I know that it's one of the most exciting and fun things in my life. Yeah, And so you know, for me, I, I want to give it all, you know. And I'm really looking forward to really going all out again or No, not all out again. I'm like, I'm all out because I, I do feel like I've slipped a little bit, you know? And I don't like that, you know, we want to do our best. So I'm looking forward to doing as much as I can as to put everything into my costume and to get as much out of it as I can. [00:23:30] Because if it is the final one, then I'll be sad. Yeah, but I also think, you know, maybe there's opportunity for something, uh, you know, new to come out of it. And we do need to keep reinventing ourselves. And the world is constantly changing. So, do you think for each performance the kind of bar has been raised. Oh, definitely, Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. And we, you know, we're always pinching ideas off each other and wanting to outdo each other. And, you know, it just gets bigger and bigger and bigger. [00:24:00] Yeah. So, I, I totally think the bar is raised all the time. I like that. And to think now that performing in the centre where you might have 2000 people I don't think about that too much. I just you know, you can't see them anyway. It's just the lights. Well, that's an interesting point. You know, like, um, if you had something to say to all those people out there in the dark on the on that last show, what would it be? Oh, that's a good question. [00:24:30] Um, I guess I wanna say something like my life short. I don't know. That's part of it. It's just like love, short, have fun and and support and take care of each other. Yeah, because that's what I like about it. You know, we are. We are raising money for our community. We are having fun together. We are, um, and and I. I so admire Jonathan Jonathan for that. For all the work that he does to create the show and [00:25:00] the community. And, you know, it's an incredible legacy that he's created, and I just think he's brilliantly talented and love it. Love him. Yeah, I'm not sure what I'd say to the audience, but, um, I just want I just want them to know how much fun we're having and you know that they can have fun, too. And I hope I'm sure, people, everyone has fun in their own ways. But, um, I think that's what I like about it is like take the opportunities.

IRN: 462
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/qwu_shaughan_woodcock.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003896
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089190
TITLE: Shaughan Woodcock - Queen of the Whole Universe
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Shaughan Woodcock
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Auckland; Queen of the Whole Universe; Shaughan Woodcock; arts; drag; performance; theatre
DATE: 24 March 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Shaughan talks about being part of the Queen of the Whole Universe beauty pageant.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So my name is Sean Woodcock. And I have been, uh, in the queen, the whole universe. Train or journey? Uh, since about 2008, you say journey, do you Do you see it as absolutely It's, um it's quite intense, actually, because it goes for about 3 to 4 months. By the time you, um you do all your rehearsals and you do all your costume changes and, of course, your you've been fitted for your dress and you start making it, you can't eat because that leads to problems close [00:00:30] to the time, you know? So you're on a diet of dust pretty much, um, but all through the rehearsals and and you're meeting new people and you're reconnecting with the old ones. And, um, it's not just about doing the pageant, and then that's it. Um, you know, I've, as I said, I've been with the pageant for since 2008, and I still got friends that were in the first year, uh, that were still doing it. So I don't see the pageant as just a one off, um, kind of 10th year ending type thing [00:01:00] because it's the people that carry on that legacy. Perhaps we can, uh, just rewind a bit and go through that whole process of getting prepared for a pageant. I hadn't realised that it took that long to, actually. Um well, it's quite a Yeah, it's a long process. Um, when you think about that, uh, the length of time and the amount of people that are involved to make it happen And really, it's for three hours on one night. Um, it's kind of like, Oh, what do I do now? Type scenario. [00:01:30] Um, but yeah. And you you've got your rehearsals, which is, um, on average, a couple of nights a week for about 2 to 3 hours each night. Uh, if you're fortunate, like I have been to be a backup dancer and an Act two performance as well, um, that's additional rehearsing. Then you need to find a time to, um, start thinking about what you're going to wear within the concept of what Buffy and Bimbo have have designed. Um, and there's all the you know, as I said, [00:02:00] you got to make the outfit or or get the outfit made for you. Um, Then there's the headgear section, so that's representing who you're representing. Um, so in 2008, I represented Uranus. So, um, I was Miss Uranus, And, um, given that, I knew you'd laugh for that. Don't put that on my mother's copy. Right. Um, the next year, being the 10th year and the final show, I was stuck as to what I was going to be. So I've decided [00:02:30] that I'm going to go out the way that I came in, and that's through Uranus. So So I'm going to be Mr again. So the headgear section is all about you kind of dressing, Um, what you you know and what you're representing. So, um so how does that feel? Um, defence could be tight. Could be loose. Really? But, uh, I mean, the feeling is quite intense. Um, yeah. And you get a lot of laughs and you get [00:03:00] a little jives and a lot of people go. Wow, that's really great. And then they scurry away, and then they make some changes to their one, and then they come back. Oh, yeah, That looks really so Actually, it's quite competitive. Absolutely, absolutely. But in a good friend anyway, no sabotage. Not that I'm aware of and not that I will declare to. Yeah. So you're saying that Buffy and Bimbo come up with a kind of concept for the show? They do. Do you know how that is formulated? Uh, I guess, uh, I only know a little bit [00:03:30] about that, but they, um, produce the kind of colours of what they want to see you in for the main dressing. And everyone either wears a kind of the same colour. Um, strict rules around the the dress and how it should look. So for 2008, when you first started What what were the colour schemes for that year? The colour schemes. You could choose whatever colour you wanted, so long as the dress was the same way that, um, that Buffy and Bimbo had kind of outlined. Yeah. [00:04:00] Yeah. So it's quite an open design. Yep. Yep. The only really restriction is it's, um, full length, but with a good split up your leg type thing. And, um, you know, the audience likes to see a bit of legs. So, um, Miss is always happy to help with that in preparation for showing a bit of leg. Um, did you have to do any special diet. Did you have to? Of course I'd never diet. Um, because I'm I'm just the perfect size. Um, but there's a lot [00:04:30] of grooming that goes on. So you've got to shave. And, uh, yeah. Have you done this kind of performance before? No, not whatsoever. Uh, I I saw the first Auckland, the first Auckland show that I'd been to was in 2007, and I had some friends in it, and I just thought, Wow, this is absolutely amazing. Um, and so I decided that, um, I would join the 2008 show, and I was actually flatting with three others that were doing it That, uh, that year as well. Two of them had been in it previously, and another one was, um, [00:05:00] was new to it. So we decided that as a flat, we were going to go in and have a ball. And to be honest, I've never looked back. So are there any entry requirements or can anyone just, um, there are some entry requirements. Um, Jonathan always likes to know why you're doing it. And, um, kind of what? You're what you're going to bring to the show as well. Um, the concept is, uh what, uh, Jonathan designs it to be, but obviously, the the main outcome of it is to raise money for, um, AIDS [00:05:30] and HIV. Um, awareness. So what was your reason for getting it wrong? I've always wanted to be on stage. Surprise, surprise for a gay guy. Um, but never, never got that far. I had no intent. I'd never imagined that I would be in a dress with a wig, and all your bit stucked away quite nicely, but, um, yeah. No, I've always wanted to be on stage. I've always had a passion for helping the community as well. Um, and that was my way [00:06:00] of of doing that. That was the first show. Has that changed over the subsequent years? Um, no, I don't think so. No, I'm I'm still passionately involved. Still keen, um, love meeting the guys and girls that are with it. And, um, yeah, as I said, it's a It's a train that I consider It's a journey, and you start from point A, and you go to point B. But, um, there's a long process that [00:06:30] happens in between it and the first year that I was in it, Um uh, there were a couple of guys or a partner that, um one of these, uh, family member had died as well. And so you kind of all brought in as a family. It is a It is one big family type environment. It's been going for a while now for, um at at least nine coming up to 10 shows. I'm wondering you're saying words like family and Journey [00:07:00] Are there specific things that bind everyone together? I guess we're all there for the one cause, and that's to raise money. Um, but we're all there to have a good time and to have some fun and have a laugh and meet new people. And, you know, how else would you get on stage without being able to dance properly or sing properly or be the wrong size or wrong height or anything like that? Um, and be on stage [00:07:30] at the a sentence in front of 15 or 1700 people. I mean, you you just couldn't do that. Normally, I imagine the rehearsals must be quite intense when you're dealing with such a diverse range of abilities. Yeah, um, it's only intense when Jonathan decides he's going to put his foot down. We may have been, you know, mucking around a little bit or talking or coming back, you know, late from having a diet muffin or something like that. Um, [00:08:00] but yeah, I mean, there's there's always a little bit of discomfort at the beginning, for for some people, um, some people pick up the moves a lot quicker. Some people don't. Some people never do. Um, but, yeah, we all we all help, and people will pull you out and say, Oh, how did you do that? Or, um, how did you swing your hips this way? And that's that's the family, um, type aspect that I've been referring to. What is Jonathan's directing style? How does he How does he How does he mould gay? Totally gay. [00:08:30] Um, he's very open. Um, he's very, very passionate about what he does. Um, and that passion brings us all together as well. Um, it all starts from the top. And and when it's around QWU with Jonathan at the helm, it is very much at the top. Um, he brings us all together. He keeps us updated. Um, he tells us to, you know, harden up when we're complaining about moves. That may not be easy or hard, but yeah. Yeah. [00:09:00] Are you wearing heels and rehearsal? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, I think it's it's important. The first couple of rehearsals. I don't, um because you kind of when you haven't been wearing them or you don't wear them all the time. Um, you got to get used to them. But, um, you know, first couple of lessons I do. And then II I think it's important, especially from my perspective that you're not only learning the moves, but you're learning the moves on learning how to do those moves within the heels [00:09:30] that you're wearing, Um, which is equally important, because in the end of the day, you don't want to fall over and break a tit or something and make, you know, make yourself look like a dick on stage. So, yeah. Do you Do you have any input into the choreography or the the design of the the work? Um, not that I'd ever confess to Jonathan, but, um, every now and again, we will When? Um, the choreographer Sarah, who's absolutely amazing. Um, teach us the routine, and we may not all [00:10:00] just get it so and sometimes we don't get it because we purposely forget it. And we say, Oh, what about this? Um, it's one of those things. You have to have everybody in the room together to actually make it work. Um, so sometimes we do tweak it a little bit, and then if we don't get our own way, we are on stage at the night. So And you were mentioning before that, uh, you were also a backup dancer in the second act. What does that involve? Um, more rehearsal. Um, more glitter. Um, more [00:10:30] outfits. Um, yeah, a little bit more pressure as well, because, um, the main show you're for me. I'm performing with my my friends. Um, and you're also performing for the community to give them a good time. They've paid money to come and see you. Um and so when you're back up for an Act two, you're doing it for the Act two person. That's, um, that's doing that role. Um, and they're obviously competing for the the total crown. So, you know, you need to be on form and you need to do it to your best of your ability and each of those people [00:11:00] that they are representing a country. Yes. Yeah, yeah. So in the times that you've been a backup dancer, what what countries will you be helping? Uh, So I have been back up for last year. I was back up for Miss Heaven, and I was also back up the previous year for Miss France. So can you describe what their garments [00:11:30] and head dress were? Yeah. Um, for Miss France? Uh, very simple outfit. It was very kind of sailor, boyish type looking. Even though you're a girl. Um, nice and loose, which is always good because, you know, by the time you've had a couple of hours of makeup on, you're feeling like a little bit of a stuffed goose by then, um, for Miss Heaven. It was very, um, started off the Wizard of Oz type. Look and feel, um, where you run [00:12:00] out, you know, blonde wig, Um, a white singlet white sort of frilly things. Um, And you've also got a grey funnel on your head because that's who I was for. Wizard of Oz, and then it kind of the storm comes along and the head gear comes off. And then you put the butterflies on your head and you carry on dancing and you know, umbrellas appear and you're dancing with umbrellas. And yeah, absolutely amazing. So you're going from a tin man to a butterfly? Yeah. Yeah. Or an angel. [00:12:30] Depends if you get your legs closed. Really? Sometimes it's a bit hard, and it's like, Oh, shit, it's supposed to be a lady. What is that, like being on stage and suddenly realising that you're on stage and then maybe that you should be crossing your legs? Yeah. Um, the very first time, um, the nerves kick in, um, especially during technical rehearsal and full dress rehearsal and you're out the back, and you you start to get really crabby, and you're stressing out because, [00:13:00] um, you can't get a helper because nothing's organised, and, you know, you want to put everything on, um, on the night. Um, you always get a little bit of nerves right at the beginning because, um, before the curtain goes up, we're all back on on stage, ready to go. Um, and you can feel the intensity you can feel the heat. You can see the feel, the people talking and you can go. You know, it's getting really exciting. And the crowd goes, the curtain goes up and we're like, Holy crap. You know, it's show time. Um, and it's absolutely amazing. Absolutely amazing. And then [00:13:30] at the end of it, you think, What was I so worried about? What were the nerves all about? But I guess to be me on stage to to to be the best that I want or I am able to be the nerves is quite good as well. Yeah. Then you don't get too cocky. Can you describe for me the change in your personality or persona from being kind of real world, Sean and then being on stage? Yeah. Um, I guess I'm a little bit more [00:14:00] cheekier and flirty as soon as I put my boots and my wig on. Yeah, Generally, it's the boots that that, um, that do it. So, yeah, I'm not I'm not too much different, but, um, you you kind of I wouldn't say you get away. Well, you kind of get away with a little bit more than you would normally. But then you're in the same group of people anyway. So And you, um you get to flirt up to, you know, to the guys that are at the backstage that actually the crew of a that are not actually part of us, and they're kind of sitting [00:14:30] there going, Oh, what's this all about? Type thing you go. Hi, sweetie. How are you? You know, push up the old factors, and they love it. They absolutely love it. So, um, for me, it's about, um, not going too far. Um, out of who I am. Um, but you're definitely there to have a good time, so yeah, and you got to play up to the crowd because that's what they're there for. They want to see your legs. They wanna, you know, see everything. What is that experience of standing in front of, say, 2000 people like [00:15:00] It's very surreal, actually. And, um, every time I'm on stage performing, I'm always very humbled to be there because I don't think it's a perfectly natural thing for me, especially being dressed as a woman. Um, but I am honoured and humbled to be part of such a great show and a great experience. Um, it's not just about the show. It's about the friendships that are formed and the friendships that go on long after the show. Um, we're always a little [00:15:30] bit depressed. Um, the first week after the show, because we've had such a manic build up to it. Um, and then you kind of left after you get over your tiredness. You're like, Oh, what am I supposed to do now? Um, but those friendships are always there. And when the crowd goes wild, we go wild as well. Absolutely. Um, their intensity brings us on. So if they were sitting there looking like stun mullets thinking, you know what, have I just come to, um, we wouldn't give as good a performance? I don't believe [00:16:00] so. We're kind of feeding off their loud jeers and chairs and hoots and the whistles going off, and that just makes the whole experience a lot more better. Um, And you What's the word? I'm trying to, um, look for you. Um, you play up to that a little bit more as well. And, you know, if you were sitting in front of 50 70 year olds that didn't know what they were doing, Um, that were just kind of looking at you. Um, you wouldn't You just give a plain [00:16:30] performance, in my view. But, um, because they're there for a good time. They know what they're there for. Um, and they play up and and we play up, and it's just great. So is it quite interactive? It can be interactive. Yeah. Some of the shows that, um, Jonathan has done have been interactive. Um, down in Wellington. Um, I was there was six of us that had to, um, in between certain sections of the show. Um, we had to dress up as Amy Winehouse and because the beautiful theatre down in [00:17:00] Wellington had the old, um, boxes outside the stage. Yeah, absolutely. And so during, I think it was at two. there were six of us on one side and one of each box with an empty wine bottle. Jonathan. I mean, come on. Um and we were in a position for a couple of sections that were purposely built into part of that stage, and then we quickly disappear, which was supposed to be quiet. But, you know, we're in heels, we're men, and we've got two minutes to get to the other stage in pitch darkness. It's ludicrous. It's ludicrous. [00:17:30] But, um, yeah, and it just kind of kind of brings on a little bit more, um, to the show. Yeah. Audiences. What kind of audiences do you get? Mixed? Very mixed. Um, from what I understand, there's quite a few hetro there as well. Um, I've never managed to score after the show, but, um, that's probably more my fault than theirs. But, um, you know, he and then you get the gays and the lesbians and the community members, um, we get politicians, [00:18:00] um, there to to support, um, support us, and they're normally in the judging panel as well. Um, we've also been fortunate to have Carmen come over from Australia, and she's been in a judge. So, um, that's judging power. Allie Moore. Obviously, um, she's she's led the Auckland judging panel for the last couple of years. So And in terms of ages, are we talking young, old, middle age, Or I think, um, a good mixture between young and middle. Yeah. I don't really see many oldies there, [00:18:30] but, um So how is it that a show can pull such a wide demographic. I think it comes down to the reputation of the show, Um, the the people that are involved because they they're not there just to do the show. They're actually there to bring their friends and to see them as well. Um, and I think, you know, hugely around, [00:19:00] um, Jonathan's participation and direction of the show and doing the media releases. I mean, it's a it's a 10 year show. Um, and I guess if if the show wasn't producing anything that nobody wanted to see or to, you know, interact with, um, people wouldn't be attending. So I think it it touches the heart of what our community is about, um, touches about the education about HIV and a ID, Um, and also the fact that everyone's [00:19:30] there for a good time. How do you think it's seen within the gay community? Oh, I think it's mixed. Actually, I think that, um, sometimes the gay community can be quite fickle and bitchy, Um, and kind of see it as, oh, you know, what's the point in going? The show is rigged and, um sometimes which, of course, it's not, because if it was rigged, I would have won. Um, and sometimes, um, people can [00:20:00] turn it into more of a personality issue, and that's really not what it's about. And at the beginning, um, Jonathan was quite open to the fact that, um, don't you know, don't worry about going on to the forums of the local rags, because a lot of people will, um, slag off the show and slack off, uh, Jonathan and that sort of thing. But I've read some of them. I think, you know, each to their own. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, But this is largely coming from people that haven't actually seen the show. And [00:20:30] I think they need to, um, get on board, leave the personality behind and get on board with what the production is all all about. And that's raising money. Um, to put back to towards HIV and a IS. You were saying that it's not rigged. It's not that that nobody knows who's going to win. Has there been any kind of controversial decisions in terms of everybody? I think everybody that goes into an Act two performance [00:21:00] believes that they will win, and I mean, that's not a bad attitude. to have, um I guess I. I haven't done that too. Um and yeah, I. I guess there's normally about five or six tattoos and standing at the end of the night in the front of all of us. Um, not being crowned or not getting a bunch of flowers. And you're kind of like, Oh, bugger, You know, um, yeah, I. I think there's always people always think that they should win, and they will always think that they should win over others. [00:21:30] Um, but when you look at the different types of performances that actually are within an act to some are more, um, comedy. Some are more, uh, drag performances. And some are actually really damn good production shows. Um, and it comes down to what the judge at the end of the day or the judging panel wants. And, you know, you can have the best show in the world. But if they're looking for that camp to come out and the, um, you've got to interact with the audience and all [00:22:00] those different aspects, some people don't get it. But I think at the end of the day, everyone should be proud of what they've been able to achieve? Um, yeah. So when you started, did you have any mentoring, or did somebody assist you, or were you just mentoring? No. Yeah, yeah. Um, I've been fortunate that every time I've formed, um, I've been sponsored by Bar and Cabaret on K Road. Um, and, um, Campbell. Who's the owner? Operator, [00:22:30] Um, is good friend of mine. Thank you, Campbell. Thank you, Campbell. Um, haven't approached him about funding for next year, but we'll get there. Um, you know, I've been fortunate that he's been able to provide some financial assistance to put it all together. Um, some people don't. Some people just put it together themselves. Um, the girls at are also really good, because fish, Miss Cola, Um, where she will kind of give me the creativity side. When the three of us Campbell, myself and Miss Cola will sit down and say, OK, this is what I'm doing. [00:23:00] What am I going to do? And so Campbell will put his hat on and cola will put her five dresses on and five wigs on, um, and then but within a couple of hours, we've got a concept of what I'm going to be wearing And, um, what my name is and all those sorts of things, Um, and I get it also touches on, uh, with another, another aspect of being on stage at the time. I'm not there. Just there for the community. I'm not there just to perform people. I'm actually there to support the people [00:23:30] that have put me there as well. So can you talk to me about the the whole kind of transformation going from everyday Sean through to Uranus? Thank you for that. Um, yeah, I guess the the, um, the brain side of of the transformation happens when I've got my boots on and my wig on. Um, in terms of [00:24:00] the lead up, you know, there's a lot of preparation. You've got to get all your panty hose. You've got to get your G strings. Um, and you've got a shave and you can't do it too close or too far out. You know, because you get rash or then you get stubborn and it's just like it is. It's really it is. But, um yeah, there's a lot of prep. You've got a the last the the week leading up to the show um, is really when you're reaching or starting to reach breaking point. Um, because you hope that everything is on track [00:24:30] with your headgear outfit. You hope that you still fit your dress. You hope that when you put it on a dress rehearsal that it still looks better than most of the others. Otherwise, you have have to go home and make some changes. Um, and you you're starting to get really tired because you've been rehearsing for such a long time. Um, and technical rehearsal and dress rehearsal, you know, six hour type stints at a care centre. So the build up to it is quite intense. And then [00:25:00] on the day you kind of blob around and make sure you've got everything like your pins and needles and extra stuff that you that you may or might need and then kind of you. You have to be there about three or four o'clock in the afternoon, and it does make a really long day. Um, and you're called into your makeup sessions, and so we all kind of take Mickey out of everyone because it's kind of like, um, putting a sheet through a cattle ranch that goes through stages and [00:25:30] you can go there, and then you they, um, wax back your eyebrows and put all your make all your foundy on, and then you're left sitting for someone to do your eyes and your lips, and you kind of look like a dead corpse. Um, and you're sitting there. So you know, these lovely people that that I've just talked fondly about will take photos of you, and then they post it to Facebook, and you don't want to move because your face will start cracking, and then you get told off, and it's all good. Um, and then you're kind of putting your bits together [00:26:00] and, you know, your panty hose and your dress. Um, we normally have a call time about seven o'clock, um, and that we're all on stage regardless of what position you're in, what shape you're in, whatever you're wearing. Um, half of us don't wear much for that because it's the last minute kind of cool. Um, because you don't want to put all your load yourself with all the G strings and panty hose, and then five minutes later Oh, man, I've got to go to the toilet. Um, and it's just a big downhill mess after that. So we [00:26:30] do a, um A to one performance. Um, about seven o'clock is the warm up the Ra Ra. Let's do it. Let's hit it, Um, And then it's a mad dash back to the changing rooms to finish everything off. And then we're on stage. Show time, um, have a blast. Then it's all over and go upstairs and socialise with with the people that have watched you, which is great. There are two things that you've mentioned that I. I I'm I'm still trying to work out of my head. I can understand one G string, but you're saying multiple G strings. Well, I guess it depends [00:27:00] how small you are. The last thing you need was an attractive woman with a sack hanging out. You know, people are paying good money, but they're not paying to see that. And it's not like you can halfway through the show. Just stop there and pop it back in and then carry on. It's just not feasible. And the other one was, um, pins and needles. Sometimes [00:27:30] there's a little issues, you know him might come undone or not. the dolls. No, no, we would never do that. Never do that. Um, and of course, we never purposely make sure we're around the the changing room that Kevin, Buffy and Bimbo are in. You know, of course, we're always on the watch out to make sure their outfits perfect for them. But you've got to have extras, and then you'll always get people running past saying, Oh, have you got a spare pin? You know, this has happened, and it's always good to have Yeah, have a few on [00:28:00] site during, um, the the days leading into the theatre or or the the technical rehearsals, et cetera. Is there kind of much bitchiness going on behind behind the stage? Are there big dramas? No, no. Um, there's never any real bitchiness or dramas. Sometimes people will have the odd hissy fit like, um, when we're doing the technical rehearsal and dress rehearsal, Um, uh, you've got to work out, you know, make sure you're in the right placings because all the rehearsals are done off site [00:28:30] at a hall. And then when you come on stage, it's totally different. Uh, it could be different. Slightly size, um, with all that sort of thing. So then you got to be replaced. And, um when we're doing the head gear of nations and we're called on at specific times, got to get the timing right as well. It throws everyone out, out and, you know, you get the one that I couldn't because such and such wasn't there. Or, you know, at the end of the day you have to be there and yeah, it always happens on the night, but, um, technical and dress rehearsals and all meetings. [00:29:00] Yeah. Sometimes some of them are a bit frosty, and it actually must be quite hard to be what, taken seriously, if you're throwing a bit of a tan, I guess so. I mean, I've I've never really had a tan in public, so I normally wait till I go home. But, um, yeah, I mean, I think everyone's kind of technical and dress rehearsal. Everyone's kind of on edge anyway, because they want to make sure they've got all the gear they want to know, or make sure that they know that they've got [00:29:30] two minutes between when Act one finishes and they have to be on stage in their head gear. Um, they've only got two minutes. Um and so if you get in the way, you'll get bold type scenarios. Some of them have really big head gears because, you know, two metres by two metres. Um, they're not small, so there's always a little bit of tension to make sure that they can get into their outfits in time. And they have the right helpers and the helpers know what they're doing. Um, and then they get back on stage. So so are there many helpers backstage? [00:30:00] Yeah. Yeah. There's, um, probably about 20 odd helpers. 20 or 30 odd helpers, I would imagine. Yeah. And on stage, there's normally about 40 of us on stage. Yeah, plus, that's, you know, obviously not including the, um, stage manager, the core manager. Um, uh, the production manager. You know, all of those sorts of things. So I think on average it it can go anywhere up to about 100 people on and off the stage. Um, and it takes That leads me back [00:30:30] to what? I said that it's a 3 to 4 months journey to get to the show. Um, and everyone is totally a part of that. And then you're left feeling at the end of it Or what do I do now? Because you've spent the last three or four months preparing for this show that lasts three hours. Absolutely amazing show. But what now? And what generally does happen after after that, um, we normally have a couple of catch ups that Jonathan and Kevin organise Um uh, usually down at the [00:31:00] Lawn Street Theatre where we actually see the show. Um, because you don't actually, you you know what you're doing, and you know what's happening, but you don't actually see it from the other way. So I think it's good for us to actually see, um, how the show looked. Um, have a bit of a giggle and say, Oh, you know, such and such. You still didn't get the move and they'll say, Well, I didn't do it in rehearsals, So why should I do it on the show? Um, and then also because you know what everyone's wearing for the dresses. Um, but you don't always get to see or appreciate the effort that people [00:31:30] have gone into with the head gear of nations, and that's our opportunity to see it. So you were in quite a privileged position in terms of one. Having been an audience member and seeing it from the audience and then actually being on stage. Yeah, actually, um, this show, the the the 10th and final um, I was quite undecided, actually, on whether I was going to be in the show or watch it. I have only seen it once. Um, did I want to be in the show because it was the last one, or did I want to see it? Because it was the last one. [00:32:00] And I just decided, you know, the last I've done two Auckland shows and two Wellington shows, and I and I wanted I wouldn't I wouldn't have felt comfortable seeing the show because I would have wanted to be in it. Yeah, push your way through the audience. A couple of them, thanks. It's always Well, the the the question and answer time is always quite good. When, um, Jonathan and and Kevin are on stage, you know, might be waiting for an actor to be performed, you know, [00:32:30] get set up. Um, and they do a question and answer type thing, and the audience can throw out a little bit of questions. They will have a jive about each other and that that's always a good one. But it's not for me. I would much rather be in the show. Um, given the experiences that are found so thinking now that the upcoming show is going to be the 10th and final show What What are your thoughts on that? Oh, Mixed, actually. Um, yeah, I can't. I Because I've done [00:33:00] two Auckland shows and two Wellington shows. Um, so this will be my final Auckland show. I can't imagine not doing another show the following year. Um, but yeah. I mean, I'm glad that I have chosen to be in the show. Um, I'm glad that I'm coming out the way that I went in as Uranus. Um, yeah, just thinking on the last show when you're on stage and you've got thousands of people in the audience [00:33:30] in the dark, would there be any kind of special message that you would want to give to them if you had the opportunity? A special message? Um, I guess the ultimate would be to thank them for their support. Um, without them, we wouldn't have a show. I mean, there's a lot I know there's a lot of things that make up a show, but, um, we could have the brilliant cast on stage as we do. But if no one's going to buy tickets, then why would you do it? So, um, thanking them for their support over the years, [00:34:00] Um, thanking the likes of or thinking about the different people that the show has benefited. Like if we take, uh, Alison Moore, I don't know whether we're allowed to talk about Alison Moore, but, you know, she used that, um, opportunity to to come out to to the community. Um, so I think that's Yeah. The show does give a lot of people a lot of things, and, um, ultimately, it's [00:34:30] thanking them for their support. Basically, yeah.

IRN: 458
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/qwu_steve_lawrence.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003895
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089189
TITLE: Steve Lawrence - Queen of the Whole Universe
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Steve Lawrence
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: Queen of the Whole Universe; Steve Lawrence; drag; performance; theatre
DATE: 11 March 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Steve talks about being part of the Queen of the Whole Universe beauty pageant.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Steve. Steve, Steve, you've brought today some wonderful photos of you on stage and the queen of the whole universe. Could you just take me through a number of these and just tell me what What's going on here? Sure. Um, first vote you give me is, um, Miss France Toulouse in all her glory with her mouth wide open, Um, she's wearing a very tight fitting corset, which, I can assure you, was extremely uncomfortable [00:00:30] in an even more uncomfortable backpack of about 40 or 50 different coloured ostrich feathers. Uh, with a head piece to match. Um, coming up in the was one of the, um, three backup dancers. This was at the very end of my performance. Um, the backup dancers were and are amazing. There are three of the South Side sisters who are an act in Auckland who are phenomenal. Um, but, um, Toulouse [00:01:00] is certainly, um, clearly letting rip with a with a mouth larger than life. I hate to say it. Are you this extravagant in real life? Of course I am. I suppose you have to ask for what I'm wearing next photo. Probably one of my favourites. Actually. This is, um my last performance. Miss Transylvania. Um, Nora Vane. This is, um, myself [00:01:30] and three of the backup dancers, um, doing the time warp, and, um, they were amazing. Me? Well, they were amazing. They look great. They were amazing. Um, the next photo you've handed me is, um, Miss India. She was slightly fuller. Figure there, [00:02:00] I think perhaps retaining a little water. Um, I own a dairy. This was, um, during her acceptance speech again, wearing a rather tight fitting corset. And, of course, all of the, um, accessories that went with it, including the Bangles, the bracelets, the earrings, the comfortable nose piece. And so it goes on. Um, she does look quite gorgeous nevertheless, for a fuller figured woman. And the last photo is Miss France again on stage [00:02:30] with, um, two of her male dancers. I'm thinking one of them may have been one of one of the guys that stood on her skirt, but I won't name him and her four puppet performers next to her, all dressed in similar costumes, Of course. And you made all these puppets I did, and unfortunately, you can't see them, but they actually all had the face of um, Lady Diana on on them, but they're just too far away to see. But yes, I did make, um, the whole shebang. And these are life. [00:03:00] Life size. Yes, they are. Yes. They were as tall as me, so they were possibly 6 ft tall. Do you still have them? No. I actually, um, gave them to a very dear friend of mine. Um, you may have heard of and hopefully know Buckwheat. So Bucky's got them in her bag of tricks so that if she ever needs, um 44 dummies they heard, How did you first get involved in the pageant? Um, the concept was screened actually, at, um, [00:03:30] one of the, um Lisbon film festivals a number of years ago as a documentary. I understand the concept. Um, first, um, sort of derived from an L A based, I think show, which had gone on for many, many years. So, um, from that, um, Jonathan and Kevin, Buffy and Bimbo, um, got the concept and got hold of the [00:04:00] concept and brought it to life here in Auckland or New Zealand. And what was your introduction to the show? How did you get involved? Um, I could say I've been on the drag circuit on the very, um, periphery of it, probably for about 10 or 11 years now, um, only ever doing, um, charity gigs, so to speak, Um, generally for causes relating to the AIDS foundation and related causes. So Jonathan sort of [00:04:30] knew me a little bit from there, I guess. Um, but my exposure, sort of to the to the, um, to the drag world is is reasonably limited and certainly was at that time. And I think it just through sort of networking, um, and and advertising. Um, I. I learned that the, um they were going to bring the concept of life here. So I was, um, keen to get involved. And the concept isn't just about putting on a show, is it? It's a It's a fundraiser. Totally. Yeah. Totally. [00:05:00] At that point in time from memory that the very first and the first few, um, I think predominantly related to the AIDS foundation and and related causes, which it still predominantly is. So, really, it was the bigger picture. It was relating to the, um to the cause. Yeah, And through the cause, thankfully, having a good time as well. So it was a double whammy for me. So you've done drag before. What is it about drag that draws you in? Listen, the first time [00:05:30] I did drag was for my 40th. I'm now 51. Um, I'm fascinated by the art. I'm fascinated by drag queens. Um, yeah, I could basically watch a good drag show every night and not get bored. Um, but since doing it myself, I now realise it's not as easy as it looks, but II, I just love the the whole entertainment side of it there, the whole package. [00:06:00] When you say it's not as easy as it looks, what are some of the the issues? Have you ever tried walking six inch heels for four hours? It's not pretty, you know, from putting the makeup on to wearing the makeup, including, you know, the long eyelashes, the dangly earrings, the wig that gets in your in your eyes and your lips because you've got that much lipstick plated on them. The six inch heels, the, um, tight fitting dresses, the panty hose, the tucking. Actually, [00:06:30] it's not a pleasant experience, but of course it's worth it for the glitz and the glamour. What are some of the positive experiences from doing? Drag, Um, particularly relating to the show. The friends I've made. To be honest, Yeah, I I've made what I will see as long life friends now from it And also personally being able to be part of as as much as it may sound sort of contrived giving [00:07:00] something back to my community because I don't do a lot for my community. So it's my way of actually giving something back and selfishly enjoying it at the same time. So knowing that you've been part of a fundraising fundraising exercise is, um, you know, positive for me. I'm wondering if we can just take a step back and just maybe look at a bit more in detail. Um, the kind of transformation from going from your everyday persona to your drag persona. Can you take me through that that kind of process? [00:07:30] Um, it's a long one. For us or for me. I generally do it with a couple of friends of mine, Um, and from start to finish, the process for us generally takes about three hours. Plus on on a good day. Um, you know, it's from clipping all the hair off your body to having a close shave, where your skin is nearly red raw to then starting the process, [00:08:00] the foundation blocking out your eyebrows, drawing more eyebrows, putting on the eyeshadows, putting on the glitter, putting on the eyelashes, putting on the lip liner, putting on the lipstick, putting on the blusher. And then hopefully you've got something that you, um, a happy worth and you're happy to take out to the public. But it's not always that easy, because I don't do it that often. It's not too uncommon for me to [00:08:30] get halfway through the process and start again. I know, and starting again means just wiping, wiping it all off. For me, eyebrows are the hardest things, because they do need to be sort of at least related to one another and, um, rather than distant cousins. So I you know, I like some sort of relatively relativity there to to the to the eyebrows, and they're hard for me. At what point does the switch over happen in your mind? I mean, you're [00:09:00] talking about very, very kind of physical things. What, when does that happen? To the mind probably when I put the wig on hm. Because until then, I've still got Steve's here. Hm. So as far as sort of from the knee up as soon as the week goes on, that's it. In what does Steve become? Lola generally, Unless it's a show related, um, performance. And then, of course, [00:09:30] that's whatever country I take. And the the name I give myself and describe lawless personality. Um, well, she's clearly a more mature lady, So, um, she's reasonably I was going to say softer nature. But then she'll do a lot of things that Steve wouldn't do. Um, for instance, um, if we've been out at a at a performance or a function or something and we'll generally go to [00:10:00] a, um, a straight bar rather than the gay bar. Um, mainly because drag queens are a dime a dozen in a gay bar, and we're not that special. But go to a straight bar. We're extremely special. And, um, Lola generally tries to, you know, lift up a straight man shirt or two or three or four, or just have a good time with them within reason. And generally they're very, very accommodating, so she'll push the boundaries where Steve certainly wouldn't do that sort of thing. [00:10:30] So when you came into the queen of the whole universe, did you come in as lower or No, I came in because, um, we represent countries and at that time were actually given our countries. The first, um, the first year I was involved, I was Miss Russia. Um, so with that, I took on the name, um, Ivana vodka shot. And their Ivana was, um, born and launched onto the world stage. Of course. [00:11:00] How much time do you spend in creating something for being one of the countries? Um, as the years have gone on, I think I've, um, been in five shows now and always as a, um, what we call an Act two girl. Which means that, um, we go through to the final stages, which, um, requires a 5 to 6 minute performance [00:11:30] to basically represent your country. So as the years have gone on, um, some of the the, um, the requirements, the perception of the show it's become bigger, brighter and better every year. Um, to the point that I know that the last time I performed as Miss Transylvania um, I'm certainly not a natural dancer by any stretch of the imagination, So I, um I had a professional [00:12:00] dancer, um, put my routine together, teach me my routine. I had, um, six basically professional dancers as my backup dancers. Um, so for me, it's got to that level, and I guess I've for me personally, I've just raised the bar to that level, and I wouldn't be comfortable in doing anything less now, but that that's just me personally on a personal level. But because of all that, it's become a very expensive exercise as well, because these people, um, [00:12:30] need to be paid and rightly so. So from a from a, um very raw sort of, um, concept and performance on year one to what it is now, um, to a point. It's unrecognisable. How far out from the performance would you be putting a routine together? Um, up until the very last one. I would usually start [00:13:00] the rehearsals about six weeks out, but the, um, the last one because of, um, work, um, commitments, including having to go overseas. I. I did the whole, um routine in about a two week period. But that was performing every night, sort of rehearsals every night. So in some ways, it was great. But in others, it was, um, pretty full on because I do a full time job that is pretty full on. So that's a commitment for everybody. And do you get complete artistic [00:13:30] control over your country? Or are you guided in in in what you should be singing and dancing and doing complete artistic control? Yeah. Yeah. Um, Jonathan and Kevin, um, rightly require particularly Jonathan an overview of what the content of your performance is going to be, and they will come to a rehearsal or two. Um, but to date, they've sort of never suggested any changes [00:14:00] or or anything. Could we perhaps go through some of the countries that you've represented and and you talk me through? What? What you did with those countries? Yeah. Um, for Russia being the first one, it was at Sky City, and I was fortunate enough to be able to be, um, let down from the from the gods. Vira crashed Sputnik and land on stage that way. Uh, from there. And [00:14:30] you were saying this was your kind of raw first appearance? My raw first appearance. Yeah, Yeah, I don't do heights at all. So it was quite quite a major for me. Um, by the time they let down on stage, um, I think had a quick change of costume. Where at that stage, there were 2 12 year old gymnasts who came on which I joined them. And we did the the ball. We did the, um, the ribbon and, of course, weight lifting. So that was generally the concept [00:15:00] for Miss Rush, and it was narrated throughout the the the five or six minute performance. So, um, the next year I was Miss India. Um, I own a dairy, and that concept was I put a, um, 1. 5 minute video together, which started off out at the airport with me walking through customs, laden with bags. And then I went to some of the, um, [00:15:30] traditional Indian sort of site slash venues in Auckland, like a mosque. Um, a dairy. I went to Barner Brothers and Posy Road and just happened to run into Mark Alice there. So he was kind enough to get involved in the video clip and that culminated in going to an Indian um, apparel shop where I purchased my outfit. And then I came out on stage in the same outfit and had an Indian dance routine with, um, six [00:16:00] support dancers, female and a male dancer. So that was the concept of that the following year. Um, was Miss France Fanny to which started off or with a solo of me on stage with a photo montage that I'd taken previously, Then into, um, sort of a dance routine with, uh, what ended up to be three male dancers. The fourth one had, um, [00:16:30] injured himself during that week. So he had a bit of change of routine there. Um um, of course included the, um, the can can At which time? When I was lifted up, one of the boys stood on my skirt. So I went up, the skirt went down. Um, which for a, um for a novice was, um heart and mouth sort of, um, experience for me completely unenjoyable. But, um, we [00:17:00] got through it. How did the audience react? Um, I suspect a lot of them thought it was part of the routine, but, um, believe me, it wasn't, but, um, yeah, it was terrifying. for someone who didn't know what to do and culminated in, um, and a bit of a finale with, um, backup dancers again, it was a lot of fun then. My final, um eight to performance to date has been Miss Transylvania, which, [00:17:30] to a point, was probably the easiest concept for me to do. Um, starting off with, um, Michael Jackson's thriller. You know, the, um the dancers were behind tombstones, and they came out and acted as the Gauls, and they they were amazing because they were professional dancers. Unlike myself, um then went into the then I had a video clip of, um, Hillary Barry doing a news announcement for about 40 seconds [00:18:00] to to allow costume change and, um, to sort of incorporate or lead into the next two, two parts of the performance, which was, of course, time warp. And, um, sweet transvestite. So it was a, I guess, a bit of a foregone conclusion. The songs I I'd use it wasn't rocket science, but it had a blast. Now, three of those acts, actually one queen of the whole universe they did. That's very impressive. [00:18:30] Very lucky. I sleep with the right people. Um Yeah, I you know, it's it is a buzz, and I can't deny it. Um, because everybody, particularly the finalists, do put a hell of a lot of time and effort and cost into it. So it's it's nice to be recognised. Can you describe for me what it's like being on stage and being a winner? Um, being on stage terrifying I To be honest, I haven't really enjoyed each experience on the night, which is a little, [00:19:00] um, disappointing in a way, because I I love the show. Having watched the show three or four times. Now, I think it's quite it's unique, but it's it's it's amazing because at the end of the day, it's a whole group of amateurs who have come together for a one night performance, and it is phenomenal in lots of ways being on the stage. As I say, I'm not a natural performer, certainly not a natural dancer, Um, and with the [00:19:30] pressure, I probably the the pressure and expectations I put on myself and and now the pressure and expectations that others put on me. Um, as I say, it hasn't been an enjoyable experience in lots of ways, but I still love it. Um, winning, um, still amazes me each time I have one, to be honest, Um, because it certainly isn't a given because, um, the the other girls are amazingly talented, and their concepts [00:20:00] are phenomenal as well. So it's it's never taken for granted. It's never a given, and it's a real buzz. But ultimately, um, as I've said on each acceptance speech, everyone's a winner. And that's true. You know, it's it's as simple as that. Everyone who participates from, um from the girls to the boys, um, to everybody behind the scenes, you know, it it is a It's [00:20:30] a group package sort of thing. So maybe not necessarily enjoying it as much on the night. Is there a point either before the performance or after the performance that you look back and go? Actually, this is this is really fun. This is really good. Oh, once it's over. After the performance, Hm? Yeah, I can sort of relax and because it's not about wanting, it's being it's about being part of it being Yeah, So after my performance [00:21:00] is over, then I can relax and enjoy the rest of the night, no matter what happens? You've also been a judge. I have a couple of times. How does that work? It's so much easier. I get to sit on my fat ass and just tick boxes. It's, um because the first three years, of course, I've never seen the show live. So the fourth year when I judged I was blown away. Um, that is phenomenal. So, being part of the judging process, [00:21:30] um, in bringing that to the judging panel, I think is important as well, because a lot of the judges probably have never done drag and certainly wouldn't have been involved in this sort of production or concept. So, um, as I mentioned, there's a lot more to it than just throwing on a wig, some eyelashes and heels and and going for it. So the process of judging what are you actually looking for? Um, we are provided with a, um I guess a series or a form to complete for, [00:22:00] um a a variety of aspects of particularly the well of the two girls only, um, which includes, um the question and answer. Um, obviously, the performance itself, Um, how it relates to the country. Um, quality of um, the performance, um, costumes, [00:22:30] the whole package. And then it's just broken up and and the judging panel are sort of required to to mark and comment from there. And after all, the Act two girls are, um, have have performed. Then we sort of shuffled away into a side room to talk about, discuss, debate and argue the merits of each person's performance. Then it's again, never a given, because although the Act two girls are predetermined, the actual finalist on the night or not, but the actual winners are not. So Have there been any kind [00:23:00] of controversies in terms of, you know, the an audience favourite not getting through? Or I think so, Yeah, but I would prefer not to go into the specifics. It's really interesting, though, that this pageant has been going for at least for 10 productions for so many years to actually keep everyone or the majority of people happy and coming back and participating. [00:23:30] What holds all that together? Um, good question, because when you look at the audience, it certainly isn't a predominantly gay audience. I think part of the uniqueness and beauty of it is is that every performer has a group of supporters. Um, so it it gets that personal interaction between performance and audience. [00:24:00] Um, which obviously generally shows don't have. So it's that that personal interaction, um and I think those that have been going to all or the majority of the shows are just wonder what's going to happen next because every show has gotten bigger, brighter and better. Um, you know, in the first, um, I'd say two or three years head gear of nation was so was what it was. [00:24:30] But the last perhaps two or three years, the head urination now is no bigger than two metres by two metres. So it's, you know, just the concepts that the visual impact is larger than life and and the creativity of people is just phenomenal. So it it's it's progressed over the years and and it's just gotten better over the years as to whether it could hold that progression in the years to come. I would probably question, because it has [00:25:00] to plateau somewhere, which isn't a bad thing. Head gear. How do you come up with a concept that will be around two metres by two metres? That will actually be able to be moved on stage. I mean, the the logistics, the practicalities of doing that would be not always easy. II I, um the very first year when I was Miss Russia, I actually didn't wear a wig. I wore I, um head gear, [00:25:30] um which was probably about a metre high but reasonably slim. And for me, that's sort of been a bit of a trademark, and since then, it's sort of probably been more incorporated into the show, particularly the head gear of nations. For Transylvania, for instance, I had a spider that was ballpark two metres by two metres on a web. But I actually had it on a backpack, so it wasn't just sitting on my head. It had to have some stability. And a few people have done that. Um, others have sort [00:26:00] of muscle boys assisting them with it. So it's Yeah, it's all doable, but sometimes with smoke and mirrors. And so, in the creation of the headgear and the and the the garments, is this something that you're you're doing personally? Yeah, I can. So, which I'm fortunate to be able to do so. That in itself is a is a saving. Um, So I make most of my own costumes and always make my own head gear. So, yeah. Can you describe some of your creations? What are what are some of your favourites? [00:26:30] Um, for when I did miss India. And that year, um, the semi finalist slash finalist had to do swimwear. So I designed a, um, actually, a flesh coloured, um, costume, um, which had sort of a little effect to it, made out of lotus petal effects. And I walked out on stage [00:27:00] with a reasonably large headpiece, and as I lifted my arms up so my other four arms followed, So I was the God, um, the I think it is with the six arms. So that was a bit of a favourite. It was seen to be a crowd pleaser, too. And that same year, um, head gear nations wasn't nearly as as big and grand as it is now. So I actually had an elephant headpiece made for me. Um, other outfits for Miss [00:27:30] France when I, um, part of my act incorporated um, two dummies either side which I made and sort of had a little apparatus. So when my arms moved their arms moved and legs and so forth. So but that was that was a concept I actually stole from the original movie that I saw. So, um, Transylvania was probably a lot less flamboyant in its [00:28:00] costuming. But then it had perhaps other effects, like the tombstones and the the male dancers came out of masks and bits and pieces. So yeah, it it shows being a little bit different as far as obviously the the concept of the costumes going. And do you find that it's all pretty much set in stone in the rehearsal period? So, actually, when you get into the theatre, it all kind of works smoothly. And how how is that process going from rehearsal to? It's [00:28:30] just like clock work. Not, um, yeah, rehearsing in a in an area and then on stage is a is a very different concept for somebody who's not in the industry and not used to performing even. Um, I know I've been reasonably fortunate with the night, but I know even leading up to the night there's been one or two in, um, dress rehearsals who who just had shocking experiences, um, [00:29:00] with technical issues and it has nothing to do with the It's just the fact that it just hasn't come together as as their concept was planned. Um, on the night it always comes together, of course, because no one knows any different, but your concept and how you visualise it. And on the night, for instance, was Transylvania had, um, dry ice filtering through the stage before she came on. While frankly, by the time um, Buffy and Bimbo had finished chatting, [00:29:30] the dry ice had gone form of Transylvania. That was a little disappointing, but there's no stopping those two from talking. So just little things like that the audience wouldn't have known. But that that's an example of perhaps, you know, the performers concept. Perhaps not quite, um, coming out on the night. So what is the thing that keeps you coming back for more a sucker for punishment? [00:30:00] Um, don't have much else to do in my life. I don't get out much. Um, single. Always looking for a date. Um, but ultimately, um, it's the, um, the fund fundraising aspect. I have a very, very dear friend who was diagnosed 11 years ago. Now HIV aids, um, he, thankfully, is still with us. [00:30:30] He came close to not being And, um, it was personally for me. Um, a bit of a shake up. Um, and I know others who you know who have also, um, succumbed to it. And as I said before, it's, um, something I can do for my community. A a little bit. Give give a little bit back as best I can. So it's ultimately it's about the fundraising aspect and bringing awareness to [00:31:00] to the issues. It's quite an interesting concept. Um, the show because actually there isn't a lot in the show, is there that is kind of overtly about HIV aids. But yet the show is all about in terms of the money all goes to AIDS related charities. And is that a good thing or a bad thing? I guess it can be argued both ways, but, um, possibly potentially, for those of us who need to get sponsors, I [00:31:30] think if it was overtly out there, it would be it would make it more difficult to be honest, unfortunately, But that's just the nature of the beast, because a number of us have gotten sponsorship from Corporates. And while Corporates, um are happy to sponsor they. I don't think it's always, um, going to be an easy ask and task for them to give something, which is, um, perhaps blatantly out there for the cause [00:32:00] when you say sponsorship. What? What does that sponsorship cover? Um, Well, for Miss Transylvania, I would have spent around about 5000 for here. Um, and that would be covering, um, the dancers, uh, the choreographer, um, making of [00:32:30] the video, um, costuming, um, makeup. Because on the night, I actually do get a professional makeup artist to do it for me because I'm not that good. Um, and probably other bits and bobs and sort of all related to it. So it does add up. So, um yeah, over the last few years particularly, I've I've managed to, um through sort of my contacts [00:33:00] mainly through work. I've managed to get sponsors to to assist with That doesn't always cover it, but it's never covered it, but at least it certainly goes a a good way. And in terms of time, how how much time would you spend for the Act One? Rehearsals generally start five or six weeks out, and that's two nights a week, Uh, for Act two generally start a month out, and that's two or three times a week. Um, costumes. I generally start [00:33:30] three or four months out. So that's a lot of time. Hm? The person at the centre of the queen of the whole universe. Jonathan, What is he like as a director? Can you describe how he pulls people together? Oh, I couldn't on tape. Not at all. Um, he's a phenomenal guy. Yeah, Um, he's he's a professional [00:34:00] in so many ways. Um, he's driven. He's focused. He's compassionate, is approachable. Um I mean, it's fair to say that we both probably have strong personalities and don't always agree on things at times, But, um, we both respect that as well. We're both, you know, mature guys and able to discuss issues that we may not be comfortable [00:34:30] with, happy with or whatever. And at the end of the day, um, walk away smiling. Um, you know, I have a lot of time for for Jonathan and Kevin, of course, Um because without them, this concept and the money raised wouldn't have happened. We're coming up to the last the final queen of the whole universe. Do you have any thoughts on that? I think it's sad in lots of ways, but I can also appreciate why it is in lots of ways, I guess, on reflection. And I think, [00:35:00] um, I've spoken to Jonathan about it before, perhaps to keep the concept alive for longer. Perhaps every second year would have been, um, an idea. But in saying that it having it done annually, it's really kept the concept alive because at the end of the day, um, there's only a certain amount of people who want to be involved in the show and the concept, and there's certainly only a certain amount of people who want to take it to the next level of being Act two. And unfortunately for those poor people who are coming in Act [00:35:30] two now, they've got it so much harder than we did on day one because no one had any concept of what to expect. They didn't have any expectations, and really we could do anything we wanted. And, you know, they didn't know they the audience didn't know any different. But now the bar is being raised so high that you really yeah, you have to give a good performance or people will know. So for the for the new ones, I, I feel for, [00:36:00] um so, as I say, I think it's probably yeah, it's probably time for it to be put to bed. Unfortunately for that last audience, the people out there in the dark would you have any special message that you would want to want to give them? Oh, I'm sure I do, I guess. Ultimately, just, um, just remember what it's all about. Remember why [00:36:30] I'll say we have put the performances on for the last 10 years? Um, sure, it's to be entertained. And without the audience, it wouldn't have been going for 10 years. But ultimately it's also about the cause. And never forget that. Because, unfortunately, it seems that, um, HIV AIDS is is gonna be around for for longer than we'd hoped for. So whether you support this fundraiser or another fundraiser, just I'd like people to [00:37:00] to remember of me what it's for.

IRN: 502
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/qwu_ron_new.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003894
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089188
TITLE: Ron New - Queen of the Whole Universe
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ron New
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2000s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Queen of the Whole Universe; Ron New; drag; performance; theatre
DATE: 6 May 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Ron talks about being part of the Queen of the Whole Universe beauty pageant.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: So, Ron, you've just brought this wonderful photo album out of some of the performances of Queen of the whole Universe. And wow, some great looking costumes there. Yeah. So very tight or costumes. So I thought I'd show you the very, very first year. So, um, this was, um I performed as a Kenyan warrior. Um, and as you can see, there's very little clothing. Um, [00:00:30] so, um, really it it it just to give you give you an idea on on on how how the boys look, because you're gonna see a lot of the girls. Um, my mother came along, Um, for several years running, I've been in the paper, um, with it, which is absolutely fantastic. But I also thought I'd show you, um, the most recent one. You can, um you know, See, um, through some of the the shots. You know, just, [00:01:00] um, how full the the the theatre really is. You know, with the, um, opening, um, sequences when you look back at some of these earlier photos. What? What? What What are your thoughts? Oh, look, I just, um I'm I'm so proud of myself, You know? It's, um, you know, to to to go from someone who who is, you know, relatively shy to look at these and see um and see myself on on stage. You know, I'm just I'm [00:01:30] just so proud of of the of what I've done and and how far I've come with it. So your first entry into the show? How did that happen? Where did where did that come from? Um, my first entry really was, um, being an audience and the member in the very, very first show. And I just thought that it was so much fun. And, um and and I just wanted to be part of it, you know? It's, um I mean, the fact that it was [00:02:00] a fundraising event, um, was almost secondary. I mean, I just wanted to be part of what? What was AAA real fun? Um, a AAA fun show. Plus, it's also a chance to be a little bit of an extrovert. You know, when um III I people would argue this with with with with me, but I tend to be a little introverted, so getting on stage is a chance to be an absolute extrovert. Um, yeah. So I I just approached uh, Jonathan, [00:02:30] Um, after seeing the first show and asked to be part of it, um, I had performed with Jonathan in the past, um, in one of the hero parades. You know, where we, um, did ballet down down Ponce Road. So I do know that he is, um I mean, a He's extremely, um, organised, and he knows how to pull things together. But he's just so much fun to work with. So had a apart from the the parade. Had you done any other kind of performance [00:03:00] work that we always perform? Um ah, you know, not. Not really. You know, again, people might dispute this. You know, I get up and perform sometimes ad hoc, um, with a little bit of bit of alcohol. But no, probably not. Not since school. And so, the first time in the pageant were you going there as a girl or a boy? How did that work? The first time it was it was definitely as a boy. Um II. I [00:03:30] have a little bit of fear of of drag, so please don't ask me to delve into that. Um so the the the first time II. I just wanted to be a boy. I wanted to be myself and, um and and yeah, that that really was my my entry. Plus, I worked my ass off to to have a slightly more cut body, and I wanted to show it. So what do boys do in the pageant? Um, boys, what do they do in the pageant? [00:04:00] Gosh, what? What don't we do? Um, the the the boys do a lot of dancing. A lot of running around. Um, we, um we're actually extremely active. We've seen a lot, but we tend not to be in in the forefront because it is really about the girls, and and and and the countries we We help the girls a lot. Um, in the parade of nations, we escort them on and off. Um, it is partly an thing, you know, to be able to pick up things that drop off. [00:04:30] Or, you know, if someone falls off a hill, you know, to be able to to be able to help them, um, we dance in the, um, opening and closing acts. And most of us, actually, um, assist one of the countries in the in the final, you know, in the artistic pieces you find. Virtually all of the boys are performing somewhere with with the final acts. What's your favourite outfit being as a boy? Oh, my favourite outfit as a boy, I would say it. It [00:05:00] was the last one. The purple outfit. It was a, um it was a waistcoat. Um, a little purple waistcoat with, um, black, um, almost tuxedo, like like trousers. Um, nothing underneath. Little bow ties. Yeah. Chances to show the chest. What are some of the other outfits that have that have cropped up over the years? Oh, gosh. They've gone from, um we were basically wearing underwear on stage with a, um uh, a tartan [00:05:30] half skirt. Um, and a tiny little little red singlet that that was the first one. I've worn, um, sequined chaps, uh, you know, with with flippers, if you can imagine that doing the penguin dance. Um, yeah, they They're kind of the three that stand out. I'm sure I've worn more. Sounds like I probably would have still out with the audience as well. Yeah, the the well, the whole thing with the boys is to I mean, it started off [00:06:00] as muscle boys but it's evolved to the boys, you know, because we're all shapes and sizes. There are girls who dress as boys, you know, boys who dress as boys, you know, So you need to accommodate everyone you know, so that for all the participants, both boys and girls, the the the whole idea of inclusiveness and of giving it a go. Is that a big thing for the page? It it really is. You know, um, I, I would say broadly, people would think of Queen of the whole universe as a a [00:06:30] gay event, but it really isn't it. It's inclusive of absolutely everyone and it. It's surprising how many people involved in the show aren't gay, you know, um, you know, because, um, it it it it's about embracing. Um, it's embracing the charity, but it's embracing all parts of the community whether you're, um uh, an immigrant. Um, whether you're gay, you're straight. You're male, you're female. You know, it really doesn't matter. [00:07:00] So you mentioned charity. Has it always been a fundraising event for particular causes? Absolutely. Um, it it is a fund fundraising event. First and foremost. You know, um and the the the fundraising has always been for AIDS related charities, you know? So, um, the, uh, depending on on on whatever is raised, it's actually split between a number of of age related charities. [00:07:30] Um, but as important it is about community, it's about, um, you know, we were talking earlier about inclusiveness about, um, providing a place for for for everyone, you know, to to to be involved regardless of of what your background is. You know what? What, What? What? You are who you are. You mentioned before that you had a wee fear of dragon. You said don't talk to me about it. What's your fear of train? [00:08:00] Um, look, II, I have been a girl on the show once. Um, so I've I've done it. Um, I enjoyed it, but not to the extent of of, um, when I'm a boy, um I look I I don't I don't feel myself in In in drag. Um uh, how do you explain it? You know, I just feel like I'm I'm [00:08:30] this this ugly impostor. You know it It's just not me. You know, I, I don't enjoy putting a dress on, but I guess that's one of the really neat things about the pageant is that you can be either a boy or a girl. And actually, the kind of gender going into the show isn't necessarily a gender that's coming on stage. Sexuality. Oh, absolutely. You know, And look, the, um the the the guys and girls that dress up, you know, and and I mean, the [00:09:00] you you you can you can feel the energy, you know, you can, um, they I mean, there's almost another personality that comes out, you know, it's just so nice to see in people, you know, it's, um, I where I love getting involved in in in that That sort of thing is I really like helping them get into character. You know, I, um I I like helping them make, um their dresses and and make their their their their head gear. [00:09:30] And you know that, that sort of thing. So I guess for me, I, I like helping other people find that character. Whereas, um, being a boy, I'm a little bit safer. I'm I'm still just me. But do you find that when you actually go out on stage that your personality changes? Yeah, of course it does. Yeah. It's, um, being on stage, um, you you're in the spotlight. You know, um, you're the ultimate extrovert. You feel like like everyone's [00:10:00] looking at you. Regardless of the fact that there's, you know, another 30 or 40 people on on stage. You know, it's, um it's all about me, you know, at at at the at the time, you know? So, um yeah, and and look, in real life, II, I don't like being centre of attention. You know, I I'm one of those ones that kind of blend into into the crowd, you know, stick with people I know, you know, on stage. I don't have to do that. So, what is that feeling? Like, actually like, going on stage for the first time? What? Can you recall how How you felt? Oh, terrifying. [00:10:30] You know, um, yeah, the the the you're standing behind the curtain and you can hear the crowd. You know that the audience is actually very, very loud. And, um, I mean, the first time waiting for the curtain to open, I was almost willing not to. I was terrified, you know, heart basically at the bottom of my throat. But once the curtain goes up and you basically make your first movement, and the crowd goes absolutely wild. [00:11:00] You're in character, you know, you're in, um, you know, you've you you remember what you're meant to do? You just go through the movements, the smile doesn't leave your face and, um, that that whole, um, nervousness disappears, and it's just replaced by by adrenaline. You know, um, when the show is finished, you're out for hours. You know, you you have to go out. You have to party because there's so much adrenaline, you know, in in your system, have you won any of the awards [00:11:30] as part of the show? Yeah, I've won. Um, I've won three awards. Look at you of one. Mr Personality. Mr. Congeniality, Um, Mr. Personality twice. And how how do you win those awards? What? What were the criteria? You just smile a lot. No. I think, um, the the, um, Mr Personality or Mr Congeniality. I mean, essentially, they they they're the same award. [00:12:00] Um, it's where the the the rest of the cast vote for, uh, the the the the boy who, um, has oh, I guess made made an impact. You know, whether it be, uh, helping everyone out whether it's been, um, you know, playing the fool and and and, you know, making everyone else um, uh, laugh and and and feel more relaxed and rehearsals and things like [00:12:30] that, You know, it's, um it it's just really, you know, AAA an award for the most popular boy when you're going on stage, Do you have any, um, like, rituals before you you go out there or the things that you do or things that you don't do? Yep. Uh, am I allowed to say this on tape? We all have a shot of tequila before we go just to calm that down. But to be honest, um, before going on stage, um, [00:13:00] we're the as as everyone's getting ready for makeup, we we do a little warm up, so we go on stage and we do a run through the opening, and that's just to re familiarise ourselves with the stage because most of the rehearsals are actually done off site. We don't get a lot of time in the actual venue, and being in the venue is very, very different than than being in a hall. Um, that that essentially calms everyone down familiarises yourself with with with the stage and, you know, [00:13:30] with with just how big a, um uh, venue it is. You know, the, um you know, when people come in, but from there, you know, I, I think most of us just talk. We chat, we laugh, and and really try and be as normal as we can beforehand. You know, try not to think about it. The rehearsal process. Can you take me through how, like a, uh, a typical rehearsal would go What? What? What would happen? Rehearsals. Um, that [00:14:00] that's the true commitment to to the show, because it is a lot of time. Um, people would be very surprised that rehearsals are actually only 6 to 7 weeks. Um, but before the show. So, um, this this is excluding the artistic performances, which which can be months and months. So Jonathan gets everyone together, um, and and and we basically start in blocks, you know? So from the first day, where everyone's falling over their feet, you know, we start in very small, small blocks, do [00:14:30] a few steps, do it over and over and over again, and just we we keep adding to it. So, you know, typical performance. Uh, sorry. A typical rehearsal, which will be about 2. 5 hours twice a week. Um, it it it's very slow, you know, So but, you know, because what we're really pulling together is about an eight minute piece, you know? So you know, it's it's just stepping it, stepping it, stepping it, you know, it's really to cater for everyone's [00:15:00] abilities, you know, because, um, look all ages. You know, we have, um, people in the show who are in the sixties, You know, the people who who are teenagers, you know, early twenties, you know, they can move differently. Um, move faster. Um, some people don't pick up the steps, you know, or take a long time to pick up the steps. So are there any entry requirements to be a participant? Is is there like a a base level of performance that you need or anybody can do it? [00:15:30] No, Again, it's about inclusiveness, you know? So the, um the the the prerequisite for the show is you must be committed. You know, that really, really is is the the the criteria. There's no point in coming in halfhearted and halfway pulling out, creating gaps, you know that that need to be filled, you know? So it's just pure commitment. So you're saying that the rehearsals are 6 to 8 weeks before the performance? How much time a week would you be [00:16:00] rehearsing? So time of week, we'd be talking around 6 to 7 hours. You know, when we put it together, Um, it's always a Wednesday, and there's 2. 5 hours on a Wednesday evening and Sunday afternoons, which are about four hours. Um, yeah, but remember, this is for the the main part of the show. You know, anyone involved in the artistic, um, pieces are are doing that quite separately. And then I guess, of course, you're you're [00:16:30] you're creating the head gear and the costumes. I mean, that must be a huge amount of work. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, look, that that would take hours and hours and hours of work. You know, um you know, um, some people will have dressmakers helping them. Some people will have, um, proper, um, costuming. People, I would say the greatest proportion are doing it themselves with their friends in the back of the garage or you know that they won't see their lounge room, you know, for for, um, a couple of [00:17:00] months, you know, because they'll have sewing machines and sequins and glue and pins all over the place. And these costumes, and especially the headgear. I mean, it's just enormous, isn't it? It's huge. It it absolutely is. I think the limit is two metres by two metres. Something like that. And, um, some people challenge that took a big Oh, yeah. So what? What What are some of your favourite costumes on head gear over the years? Oh, look, there's there's so many of [00:17:30] them. But look, I would, um, say, um, Easter Island, um completely surprised me. In fact, two years years, um, running, um, different people who have done Easter Island. Um, there was one. can you describe what Easter Island looks like? Oh, Easter Island. The, um there was one which was, um, basically two Easter eggs. You know, um, one on top of the other. And that was definitely two metres by two metres. Uh, it had, uh, lights [00:18:00] all the way through it. It was decorated in in flowers. Um, when you turned it around the back was hollow. And inside it was a, um, a luminescent Penis. And the, um the the dress that was, um, being worn was, if you can think of sort of Judy Garland, um, sort of, you know, gingham blue, but in hoops, you know, which was just outstanding. But, um, a couple of years before that, there was, um, someone who wore [00:18:30] basically one of the Easter Island statues on the head. Um, we did call it his his tomb tombstone. Um, but again, this massive, um, Easter island head, you know, which was, um, carved out of out of foam and painted. Um, I think it was actually done by one of the TV N, um, workshops. You know, um, helped them do that. So yeah. What about costumes or any Any favourite costumes? Oh, look, I'm I'm a little bit, um biassed, but I, um as far as costuming, um, and and I'll [00:19:00] really talk about the artistic performances here because that's really where you see costuming. Um, miss Transylvania had some absolutely fantastic costuming with, you know, zombie vampire. You know, um, and how they made zombie vampire still look sexy was absolutely incredible. hot, hot, hot. Oh, just bodies. Very good bodies. Ignore the faces. Um, Barbie Prawn. Um, who [00:19:30] actually won the first wellington, uh, show she did, um, in in in her piece. She had dancing kangaroos, dancing, um, emus, Um, who became Mardi Gras lifesavers and dikes on bikes? Um, yeah, and, um Barbie Prawn herself. You know, basically, she had a big prawn on her on her head. Um, you know, but also with costuming is, um, staging, you know, because the, um, the the staging is also done [00:20:00] by the country. Who's who's performing at the time, you know, with the artistic pieces. You know? So I, I, you know, think of bar Prawn Who, um, at at her her own expense and and with with with her own support group created, um, a full on, um, lunar park backdrop, which was completely, um, lit up. Um, the mouth was, um, basically the the entrance where characters were coming in and out. You know, it's really hard to describe in [00:20:30] words. You know, I've got the picture in my mind, you know, but it's just spectacular, um, staging, you know, that's that's done as well. So the logistics of actually moving some of these set pieces into a theatre must be huge. Uh, Yep. Um, some of the staging. It's absolutely incredible. Um, the venue that you that you're performing in, you know, so in in Auckland, it's the A centre, um, that that that they do have their their rules and regulations, you know? So when you [00:21:00] when you're building a set, you you you you need to ensure that you comply with with with those regulations. You know, obviously the safety requirements and and that sort of thing, um, we were quite lucky with, um, the building of one of our sets, which was actually Miss Morocco. Um, four years ago, where, uh, we were able to actually build it in the back of the A A centre. Um, you know, this was a massive metal frame which basically, um, opened in in a desert backdrop into a massive, [00:21:30] you know, full full of, um, girls. And so the centre is I mean, that's a big venue. It is a very, very big venue. And does that Does that sell out? Uh, very, very close. Uh, my understanding is that, um the last, uh, three years in in Auckland. We've had an audience of around the 2000 people. Mark, give or take. Um, so that that that's a rounded figure. And what kind of [00:22:00] audience is it? What kind of demographic? A extremely mixed, Um, there is a large proportion of supporters, you know? So people who know someone that's in the cast, you know, So a massive entourage, you know, and and they really do get behind the country that they're supporting. Um, there is, uh, a number of people who, um, who just see it as as as a really cool event to go to. And and they're not associated to people in the cast. Um, it is quite heavily marketed as, um, one of the, um, Auckland [00:22:30] events. It's on the Auckland event calendar. Um, and the edge, um, promote it. Really, really? Well, you know. So, um yeah, and, um there There is also, um, amazing support from the gay community. Um, for the show. Um, and that support has always been there from day one. Yeah, that's quite interesting. Uh, I was going to ask, you know, what kind of place does the pageant have within the gay community? Do you think? Look, I think, um, it it it has [00:23:00] a, um a very solid place within the gay community. Um, one thing I do find in the gay community is there. There is a tall poppy syndrome, and, unfortunately, successful gay things do tend to get sort of chopped down a little bit. But, um, the queen of the whole universe has really survived all of that. And it's it is an iconic, um, gay event. How do you think it survived? I I I think it survived because [00:23:30] every year the bar has been lifted. So it's not one of those things that just repeats itself, you know? And And you think the concept, you know, of taking the Mickey out of Miss Universe. You think it would get stale pretty quickly, but it doesn't. Every year the bar is lifted, you know? So, um, the, um the quality of performance just keeps picking up. Um, you know, it's it's II. I said, quite early in the piece. Semiprofessional. Everyone that's involved [00:24:00] is is an amateur, you know? So there's very few people on the show who really do have, um, stage, um um or or performance background. there are one or two. but the quality of the show has come, you know, to a point where people really do think that that a lot of the cast are quite professional, you know? So, yeah. So we're coming towards the 10th and final pageant. What are your thoughts on that? Uh, look, [00:24:30] I, um I head towards it with very, very mixed feelings. You know, um, my view is, um finish it while it's on a high, you know, don't let it get stale. So in a way, I'm I'm kind of pleased that it's the last one. But, um, something needs to replace it, you know, And and and, you know, II, I really, really hope that someone has a really good idea to to replace the gap. It's going to leave. [00:25:00] And the other thing that I think the the the show was going to, um uh, when the show disappears is is a whole community disappears because the show in itself is quite a community, you know? And, um, I, uh, offer a couple of years, you know, question whether I was going to do the next one, you know, because it is a uh, you know, quite a quite a commitment of of, of time and energy. But the thing that that has kept me coming [00:25:30] back when I've kind of been dragging my heels is that it is a community of people in its own right, you know? And there are a number of people that I only see as part of the show and and it it's just a fantastic spirit. So what's the show done for you? The show for, um, personally, um, for me is, um it it's it's it's growing me, um, as as a as a person. Look, I have a hell of a lot more confidence, you know, [00:26:00] and and it wouldn't be the show in its own right. But it's certainly helped. Helped build, um, AAA lot of confidence in in getting in front of people you know, and and and, um performing, you know. So I'll I'll get on stage, you know, and and and present in my everyday life now, you know, and and and the the The show gives me the background for that. But it's also look, it's it's, um it's allowed me to meet a whole lot of people. I not normally have met, [00:26:30] You know, um you know, um and and that's within the gay community as well as as, as you know, other walks of life. Um, the one thing that, um I don't think the gay community does very well is girls and boys, you know, get together and really mix and mingle. And through the show, I've met so many girls, you know, and they're just just wonderful, wonderful people, you know. And, um, you know, their their their friendships, which will last forever.

IRN: 423
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/qwu_kevin_baker.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003893
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089187
TITLE: Kevin Baker - Queen of the Whole Universe
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Kevin Baker
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2000s; Auckland; Body Positive; Buffy and Bimbo; Kevin Baker; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Positive Women Inc; Queen of the Whole Universe; drag; performance; theatre
DATE: 29 January 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Kevin, a. k. a. Buffy from Buffy and Bimbo, talks about being part of the Queen of the Whole Universe beauty pageant. Kevin died on 22 October 2018.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Well, uh, the queen of the whole universe Pageant is a, um it's a parody on an international beauty contest. And it was an idea to do something creative and artistic, uh, in the community to, um, inspire some talent and and inspire people to come and present their stuff in a in a different format. And so that's sort of really where it's come from. When did it start? Um, 2004 was our first year, and we've so Yeah, eight [00:00:30] years. And this is coming up to our 10th show in 2012, So it's had many years of operation. Can you describe for me what that first show was like? Um, yeah, I. I can. It was It was it was special. It was in that stage, it was called Queen of the Whole Pacific. It was in its in its infancy in a way. And, um, I was actually stage manager in that first year, which was really exciting. So I was calling the shots, calling the all the queues and up cursing [00:01:00] and lights and action. And, uh, that was fun. Um, and then, uh, in the second years and subsequently then Bimbo and Buffy have been the M CS of the of the pageant, and it's worked in and and it became queen of the whole universe. But the first one was queen of the whole Pacific, and it had totally was a Pacifica entourage. And how many contestants? About 25 or 30? I can't remember the actual number. But about that, Yes. Had there been anything [00:01:30] like that before in New Zealand? Um, not No, not not quite. I mean, there have been some, uh, beauty pageants in the Pacifica, Papa, um, area that run Rosa Pacifica, which don't run anymore, sadly. And, um, I'd seen those in the past and thoroughly enjoyed them. And they were, um but they were representing their islands island nations, and that was, um, quite nice. This was this was totally [00:02:00] to be a drag theatrical performance and to encourage people to come forward. And, um, you know, uh, represent a country from around the world and inhabit that role and and and create a character and have fun and send it up and enjoy the diversity and the, um, and this and all the plays that can be on on different cultural expressions. So So it was more about participation. Participation definitely was what it was about. Yes. And so yeah, we've And [00:02:30] we've had, you know, hundreds of people, um, who have performed and hundreds and and a large entourage putting it all together behind the scene. So it's it's been quite a an amazing i think community initiative of its of its own, having been, as I say, stage managing and being part of the stage production crew was good. That first year we had, um both. I think Jonathan and Helen Medlin, who's a New Zealand opera singer, was the MC. And they did a great job [00:03:00] together. Yes. So what were some of the stand up moments in the first one? Um oh, Miss Russia. I was just trying to think Miss Russia was, um was the winner that year, if I remember rightly. And she came down out of the out of this fly tower and landed in a little Sputnik capsule and hopped out of that, that was the idea. And, um and, uh, it was it was new because I was playing playing on all the, um, the ideas that you know in a in a proper, [00:03:30] um, beauty pageant. Um, the the girls have to also demonstrate talent as well as beauty and brains. And so we had all the felt in all those elements is was only right for such a piece. Yeah. So Miss Russia did, um, sort of like a Russian, uh, circus act. A strong woman act which just fitted the role. So well, yeah. So she was doing strong women lifting heavy weights and things like that. So it was very It was a good parody to start with. So was Miss Russia part of act, too, So this was [00:04:00] like, she was one of the finalists. So this was like, an individual performance, and then the first was in the first pageant of nations was really around, Um, the beauty parade part of it, which is, you know, each country presents themselves in national costume, and I think that's what we did in that in that first one. So for the first, um, few years, it was national costume, and then more. Um, we created a new tradition of head gear of nations which has really just taken off, and it's now become a signature [00:04:30] piece of this particular piece of show. Can you describe that? Oh, that's where Instead of a just a you know, national costume parade of all the countries that have been represented, they have to come up with a piece of headgear which is like two metres by two metres. And it can be of any any construction, any concept. Um, as long as it's big and colourful and can be seen from a distance. I imagine two metres by two metres on me, so so. But it was It was It was again, I think, [00:05:00] because it was taking that parody to another level, which is which is what it's about. It's it's it's having fun both with the genre of the beauty queen and enjoying the fact that allows you such freedom to play with with with culture stereotypes, which I think was we have always skirted on the boundaries of cultural stereotypes and you know that there's always the truth on a stereotype, and yet it's not the only thing that's about the country. But we all have stereotypes about everything and including countries, [00:05:30] the world. So people have played on those things in so many different ways and I've loved that. Can you give me some examples? Oh, I just One of the things was was when Miss Egypt coming out for her. Um, question. She was a finalist. When you coming out and her, um, to do her question, you know, secret question. And she came out and she had a burka on. But it was, um she looked like she had ripped down the shower curtain. Now the dressing ring. And she had [00:06:00] Birk on with big dark sunglasses and this huge giant blow up ring, which she was standing in the middle of sort of a blow up toy that you'd see in a pool. It just looked so absurd. I just cracked up as she came because I've not seen that was totally a surprise. She hadn't present presented that in any sort of dress. And, um, so, you know, sometimes you get you get caught out by that and you love it. That's just a delicious moment. And she just signed up and, you know, she just really held it. She just held it together. She had a presence. [00:06:30] But this as I say, it looked like this beautiful she goes. Was she going to hit the pole or not in that, you just never know. Um oh, I'm talking about burkas. Miss Afghanistan one year actually had a a costume. Her, her, um her pageant costume was a a black sequined burka at the front. But when she turned around, she had, uh, fish nets and stockings. So it was all absolutely cut away at the back. It was just delightful closed on the front [00:07:00] and not in the back. So I mean, by playing with all of those sort of ideas, cultural ideas and having fun with them and only I think only we could get away with it and names as well. I I noticed that there were some fantastic names just thinking from last year's, um, pageant. Um, Miss sa was, um and she loved it. She loved that name and all her friends do, and she is on. So it was perfect. She could totally get away [00:07:30] with it. Too fat to fell off her sofa and, um, miss Transylvania Nora vane. Just, you know, plays on little names and these are more wrestling. And famously Miss India, who won miss that year was, um Miss De so you know, and people just find it totally charming. Um, and, you know, here's another one here from Miss Scotland, Miss Bonnie MCM muff. And and we've had many, Some of some are a little [00:08:00] on the edgier side, and some are just just good little puns on ideas. So in terms of, uh, a contestant's costumes, headgear name? Is that all coming from the contestant that comes from the contestant? Yeah. They have a chance, Uh, freedom to choose the country. And, uh, they all get into it in that way and and come up with the name of their own. And we just help them a little bit if they want to tweak it or just to make it work better if it needs a little bit of assistance. So [00:08:30] pretty much people who who are who have committed to this do a good job. They enjoy the the fun of of creating their own character and the costuming and, you know, and making the whole thing come together as a look and a name and a personality, because the costumes that you you you're showing here, uh, they're really intricate hours of work. Some Oh, definitely. They are. They are couture, some of them, but they're also stage. I mean, stage performances like this. Miss this one. Best costume, Miss Tahiti, Miss. [00:09:00] Um, they they they cut. They're cute. Very cute, Miss England. Looking like Queen Elizabeth The first, um, you know, there's so many wonderful ideas. Um and, um and you know, I think the thing is that, um the whole idea is that is it has to be visual. It's a it's a show. It's a piece of theatre, and it's large in life. So anything that has colour and size and and, uh, parody and fun is [00:09:30] is what the audience comes to see in the first couple of years. Was it hard to get contestants? Um, no, not really. I don't think I. I think it it It built up speed over those first years, and there's been a a small group of people who have sort of stayed with it right through right from the early days as a as a committed, um, sort of community event that they like to be part of. And, um, that's good. And we've always had about look, about probably about every [00:10:00] about 40% new contestants around about that, so it's actually quite a good mix. There's sort of around about, you know, 60% who have done it before. They might have had a year off, perhaps, but a lot of actually come back year in year, year after, because it's they just enjoy the the the friends they've made. They enjoy the fun they have. They, like the rehearsals are like, you know, having a little fitness club that meets twice a week to rehearse. And, uh, you know, we we do a couple of hours of rehearsal usually, and it's people get hot and sweaty and [00:10:30] it's It's a good workout, so people have enjoyed it at that level as well. Take me through the the rehearsal process. How How does it go from, well, rehearsals? That's my my role is music monitoring. Let's take a step back and let's go. Um, you're pretty intimately involved with the whole process, being Jonathan's partner as well, coming up with an idea for the show for the next show. Let's go from there and go forward. Well, it's it's a whole sort of year's genesis really of ideas, so we tend to [00:11:00] just John has a little like little notebook, and he records things that he sees, like shows or little performances or or, um, just pieces of the arts that just that that sort of fit with with an idea that might be useful. And, um and he puts those down and just sort of lets them digest. And that's that's how he sort of gets some angles on the show. So, like, you know, it might be the year we had, um six. Amy Winehouse's Now [00:11:30] Why would you have six? Well, she's an icon, sadly, no longer with us, But, um, she it was to throw in just this quicky thing. Suddenly the light would go on and Amy would be up in the up in the opera box. And rather than have one Amy, let's have another one pop up over there. And and so that was like just a bit of absurdity. And but the audience liked it because it it's again. Those that come year after year enjoy the format of the show, which has its own sort of, um, structure, basic structure. But, um, they enjoy [00:12:00] anything quirky. They enjoy the originality they enjoy, the the parody as I say, and so anything that's a little bit, um, whimsical. They get into it so they really like the suddenly the the the light will go on. And then, um, don't make me go to rehab would suddenly just have a little musical piece and then it would be gone. It was like, Did that actually happen? I was like, What was that about it? Just, you know, it just an idea of just diverting people's attention and just stimulate them in another way. But she just wouldn't [00:12:30] It just wouldn't do in a conventional show, you know? So things like that, and, um uh, one year we had, um you know, we did a lot of work with the AIDS Foundation, and their volunteers made a fabulous, um, mini poi, and we did. And it was probably one of the most popular, um, pieces because the audience were all got their POY out of their bag and they were twirling it away with the cast and the opening production piece. Um, and it was just really, really fun. That was probably the most [00:13:00] audience participation. But we have audiences that come representing, uh, supporters and friends of certain countries. They dress up, they have, um, and have flags. And they dress up, um, supporting the contestant. I was just trying to remember what? Who's the country? But, um, it was it must have been Jamaica, Miss Jamaica and the Voodoo dolls and the the And they had They were all sitting in the front row. They managed to get the seats, and they all had these little calico dolls with different flags on their chest, [00:13:30] and they had pins sticking into them. And so I was like, Wow, who came up with that idea? But that was what I was doing. I was I'm going to get rid of you with a bit of voodoo. And so you're like I and and you can play Well, you know, as as we we like to interact with the audience, and they like interacting back. And, um and so you you get comments out of the crowd and some of them are just just dozers really fabulous and and, you know, and and that's totally encouraged, the [00:14:00] audience goes crazy. Um, I. I thoroughly enjoy the vibe of the audience and we tell the new contestants now when the curtain goes up if you've never done anything, a lot of people haven't ever performed on stage and wouldn't be on their own. But in the in the safety of a large group and with the with the well honed sort of, um, vehicle, they they're totally comfortable. We tell them that that when that curtain goes up, the audience, um wave just hits you the energy of of we're ready for a for a fun. We're ready for a good show. [00:14:30] Um, and it just hits you and it's so palpable. Yeah. So Jonathan has a book that he writes stuff down on during the year, and that's a sort of ideas book and that sort of, as I say, digests and, um and, uh and he and it might be something I see or he sees. And oh, that's and see notes it down. And, um and then it just as I say digestive. And he puts that together. An idea. Well, how do I shape [00:15:00] show what's going to be a bit different this year? Like, you know, um, this year, rather than so for, um, for the, uh, because we never had done swimwear for a few years. I can't remember. Actually, we did. But we did wear for the national costume. So they all And that was just delightful because you know, why not? And then another year was, um, they had was the finalists had to present themselves for the interview question in maternity gear. I mean, you know, like we can so wear maternity [00:15:30] gear. It's like, um, it's it takes that whole sort of, you know, the the be again, that beauty contest idea to another to another level of extremist. Yeah. How far out before the performance date is? Are things put in place in terms of, you know, uh, who goes which country? Oh, well, it sort of it sort of gathers up over probably about the the the six months before the show. Um, people, sort of sometimes, Well, I want to be so and so next year, you [00:16:00] know, And and that's, you know, that sometimes can be reasonably accommodated. And because luckily, we've got many hundreds of countries in the world and possible ideas. We don't always have country because it's the whole universe. And because we're really inhabiting a fantasy realm, we've had everything from fantasy Island, Tracy Island. Uh, Miss Antarctica, Um, out of planets, Miss Uranus. So in Miss Venus. And and, uh So there's there's characters, Miss Atlantis, [00:16:30] uh, that are just totally possible and fit within the genre in their own unique way. So that's what I mean, It doesn't it? The boundaries can go in any direction if people want to take it there. And we had, um uh, Trinidad and Tobago were a contestant and they were Siamese twins joined together at the hip and they got through to the pile. But then we found out to be fakes because they were actually masquerading as twins and they were [00:17:00] found to be joined at the hip by a false by a device, and that was unlocked and they were kicked out of the show. Another running gig is there's always some mishap about Miss Fiji trying to get into New Zealand through customs. That's been a long term running gig. Miss Fiji, for some reason, has been turned away at the border for something rather and so so we always have a few of those in there as well. There's stories and stories and, you know, sometimes you say the audience go. [00:17:30] Oh, like I wanted her to get through it like No, Well, you can say no. It is not going to happen, but it isn't going to happen, is it? But, um so just, um yeah, just being being funny with it and being, um and and celebratory with it as well. But there is There is a an element of true competition, isn't there? I mean, yeah, there are. There are there is a small group of people who are who are committed in advance to be, um, Act two finalists. And they have [00:18:00] to be because they've got to do, um, you know, they truly are the competition part of the show. So that is built in there. The audience doesn't know who's going to really be those ones. So at the beginning of the large, um, production opening number, all the girls are there, and the and the muscle boys and, um, you don't know who's going to be going through that, too. And that's fun, that's all. And the elimination process happens. And then we come down to our last performing ones, and they usually have to do a special a special [00:18:30] fashion parade an interview question and then a five minute performance piece, which is judged by, uh, we have a judge panel in the audience, celebrity judges and and, uh, that it's a true competition. So the rehearsal period. How how? How do rehearsals work? Rehearsals are really easy. We usually have a A, um, a couple of halls, church halls or, um uh, theatre. And we use that for our rehearsals. [00:19:00] Um, we've got a couple of or several people have been. We've had several choreographers over the years who've helped us choreograph the first piece. Um, some who stayed with his long term 11 who stayed with long term Michael Sanders, used to miss New Zealand contestants. Truly, truly. So. He comes with a lot of experience, and and and he's a He's a theatre producer himself and in Amateur Theatre, and, uh, very, you know, he has the right aesthetic, you know, which he finds harder. [00:19:30] The, um, New Zealand, New Zealand, because they they don't do enough rehearsal. They really do not do enough rehearsal. Those Miss New Zealand contests contestants, whereas ours do. It's a very as I say, very honed machine, and we take everyone um, regardless of size, shape, sexuality, gender orientation. Uh, we we're not worried about that. It's very inclusive. So we have, you know, we have a we We've been a safe place for heterosexual people [00:20:00] who support the cause or support the charities. That we're supporting HIV charities is what we support positive, uh, women body positive and the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. So, um, that's always been an ethic that we that we want to promote safe sex and the message of, you know, of of health for people living with HIV and prevention of HIV. So, um, there the money is raised. That's where it goes. So people who are supportive that cause and either have [00:20:30] a supporter of the gay community at large or maybe even have a son or a daughter who's gay they've been in the show have been have strong contribution, and it's a safe place to be no one. You know, no one gets a rough time. We don't question people about why they're there. So we've had everything from transvestites to cross dresses, drag queens, um, heterosexual mothers, um, guys who who just would like the idea of for the first time ever dressing up in a frock and and doing a show being part of a show. [00:21:00] So really, um, fascinating, fascinating, um, motivations that people have for wanting to be part of this. This this show. Can you describe, uh, Jonathan's directing style? How does he get people to do what he wants to do? He's a He is a good people person, that's for sure. He's, um he's bossy, but not in a in a tall, nasty way. He's just very directorial. And, um, you know, it's It's his show, I. I take second seat to that because I think [00:21:30] the same idea that if if you don't have someone who's taking the lead and being the final say on things and it just becomes a power struggle, um, we have our own power struggles Buffy and Bimbo because you know we're twins and we do compete for for airspace anyway. But, um, but in terms of the show design, it's it's his show. I just enjoy being totally a part of it. I have. I have input into it. I have a sense of what's what. What, how the show is shaping up. I have my say when I don't think it's a good idea or I think that's a fabulous idea. So, yeah, Jonathan bounces [00:22:00] a lot of his ideas off me and vice versa. And we agree that. And then it's never a problem from there. Once the things are decided, you just go with it because it's the show. It's the shape of the show, and it's it's like it's gonna take. It's gonna take its full form on the night. It's what the whole thing is, a one show, one night only show with lots of sort of, you know, lead in and, um, good organisation and good, you know, putting it together as a piece of theatre [00:22:30] and, um and then it it just runs on the night. I mean, that's when Jonathan steps out of his directorial role, hands it over to the stage manager, steps into the character of Bimbo, and we see the show and so that you know you can't run it and be it in the front of it. You have to let it run then and that it is ready to run. So you know, good on him. It sounds like a huge commitment of time and energy on both your parts. And I'm just wondering what impact [00:23:00] over the last, uh, seven or eight years has it had on you guys? Um, it's it's probably the most fun community event, you know, um, that I've ever been involved in just because it's so diverse. And I just get really excited by what? How it all shapes up and what people do and what they bring to it. The love they bring to it and the fun they bring to it and the camaraderie they bring to it. Um, and and just working with the collective, you know, you [00:23:30] think you've got about, um, 35 to 40 or 50 people on stage, you know, including, um, all of the performers. And then, um, we have some special guests and we usually have, like, our dresses and volunteers and stage crew. Uh, probably another. You know, 60 or so people behind the stage and it's all working together. It's a great it's a great atmosphere, really. And, um, we we it's run professionally, but it's run with a with a real sense of fun. Has it affected [00:24:00] your relationship in any way? Um, it's been a it's been a, um a key part of our our relationship over the last, um, eight years, uh, as I say have been around for a lot longer. And, um, that was something that Jonathan and I created together as a as an idea which, um, created those those characters, those drag drag artists. And, um, this has just been a nice I mean, we didn't It wasn't [00:24:30] set up for buffing it started. It was, as I say, I was a stage manager first year, but it, um it was a case of So who's gonna front the show and by us fronting it, It also allowed it to to just be another level of celebration, I think because we know we have this I enjoy. We both enjoy the MC role. We both um yeah, as I say, just I think it's just worked at a certain level. It just is we can carry it. We can. Also, because it's a show which has a few surprises. [00:25:00] You have to be able to have an MC who can carry things just for a few moments while there's a set up time delay or or just we haven't had any really major, terrible technical hitch. We really haven't, um we've been so fortunate, but say there's just a just the stage crew just taking a little bit longer to set something up or whatever, Um, or our wheels jammed. Or there's still a bit of costume left over from the last performance on the front of the apron. Well, you know, we'll we'll go and pick that up and toss it in the wings [00:25:30] or, um or, you know, we'll we'll just we can talk and and and play for time. And as I say we do. So we we We're quite good at doing those sort of continuity connections for between items, and you need that. It's, as I say, because it's not a conventional show and you just don't know what's coming next. The audience doesn't matter. They just they're ready for the next thing. Have any participants surprised you in terms of, you know, somebody walks [00:26:00] in off the street and you go, Wow, that's that was unexpected. Walks in off the street. Um uh, just I was You know, some people have been quite whimsical as a builder who liked to cross dress, but I never did it privately in the 1st 2nd year of the show, and he was an audience, as she and the character role she was was the audience couldn't actually walk on stage, but had a little skip sort of action, and it was sort of charming. It was really charming. The audience really, really connected [00:26:30] with that with her. And, um, she was having the time of life. Never done anything like this was on stage. You know, this is just freedom and fun, and, um, and it's OK to be in this space and quite safe to be in this space. And, um, he came back, uh, last year to to To to say hello. And, um, I'm I'm hoping he'll be in the show this year. So after, you know, only only ever performed once with us in those early years, but, um, audience favourite just [00:27:00] because it was the sort of the there was a sense of an essence of joy about being able to, um, dress up and perform on stage. Yeah, it was gorgeous. So yeah, that's that's it. And just, you know, for for others, it's like the majority of people are not, um do not do drag elsewhere. Do not excuse me. Do not do any sort of performance. So this is really this is the one special moment. But they love it. They embrace it. [00:27:30] One of the things I find really interesting is the idea that it's open to all genders or sexualities. So you've got boys being girls, being boys or girls being boys, being girls. Can you talk? Talk? I think that's again. They say, pushing the extending the boundaries. Yes, we've. We have women, heterosexual women who support the course who, um, uh, you know, dress and drag. And they just love it because they never get the chance to do that anywhere [00:28:00] else. And it's just something to do and and age is the material. You know, that, Um, one of those one of those people is Maggie, and she's, um I worked with her years ago in mental health. She's a really, really good, down to earth person. She's in a in a, um, mid sixties, probably now, But that isn't a problem. And she just gives so much every year into what she does and performs on stage and has so much fun. And she's very, very loved by the lots of the cast. So she's a regular that's been around for quite a number of years. [00:28:30] Um, and as I say, um, women, women dressing as muscle boys, which is fine and boys dressing as girls and and even people sometimes being a girl one year and the muscle boy the year the next year again, that's just great. And we've even had, you know, muscle boys when the, um, the muscle boy, you know, the top muscle boy who happens to be a woman, you know, And again that's chosen, uh, some of that is chosen by the artistic team, and [00:29:00] sometimes that's chosen by There's also the The cast chooses the sort of the person that stood out in in terms of camaraderie and personality in the in the cast. What about the audience? Has the audience changed over the years? Um, I we've got I think we've got a a number of people that come here if you because they just love the show and it's it's, uh it's something they want they have on their calendar, and they would never miss it. It's always been a very I think it's a show. Our audience is probably about 30 or 40% [00:29:30] gay community and probably 60% um, wider community, heterosexual community. And and that's pretty consistent, too. And I think people just enjoy it for what it is. And they love the fact. I think the the idea of a beauty pageant parody where most of the contestants are men is just, you know, is just that little edge to it. Really. Can you describe, uh, being on stage and what it's like? Um, having that kind of intense audience [00:30:00] reaction? Oh, I love it. I mean, it's it's just something you just, um, enjoy, um, nothing like a full house and standing there like standing on a stage and looking on the auditorium. It's a lovely auditorium, and it feels it's quite immediate. It's it's everyone's pretty close, and, um, and we're right up to the audience in a way, and we go right down the apron and chat. And as I say, there's Red Party and there's banter between us and certain people in the audience, and that's and and that's free, that free exchange is lots of fun. [00:30:30] Um, I, I love it and I I like looking up and seeing people looking, you know, looking back at you and laughing. And, um, you know, just the buzz of it all. It's it's, um it's a very exciting place to perform. Yeah, it is indeed, and a very large place. Well, it it is, But it's always felt like a home and, uh, doesn't feel intimidating in the least. No, I wasn't thinking. I was thinking intimidating I. I was thinking 2000 people to get an audience [00:31:00] coming back year after year after year. It very impressive It is. It is, you know, and and, uh, we we we get a full house, and so we make the most of it. I mean, that's our It's our one night to make the money that we need to make for our for our, you know, charity, our fundraising. And, um, we do we've taken the show to, um to Wellington several times. We did a performance piece for we got invited to do an exhibition piece at Te Papa's 10th birthday, which was [00:31:30] a real treat to actually do that in the Wellington foyer. And Papa, um, was just lots of fun, and that was a totally. That audience didn't even know by and large what was coming, and they just were just got into it. It was It was it was the most original audience because it was just purely the people that were at Papa coming. Some had heard that we were there, and it was interesting, diverse mixture of New Zealanders and a few foreigners and all walks of life. [00:32:00] And it was I mean, we just did the, um the the head gear of nations peace. And, uh, they just went for it. We've done We performed twice in Wellington as well. And, um, this last time was with the out games, um, uh, and we are opening. And we were lucky enough to open the cultural part of the art games festival. And, um, we did a, um a flash mob [00:32:30] little piece of our opening number down in, um uh, Civic Square in Wellington. And that was in the middle of the day. And we got good ticket sales from that as well. He was like, Oh, this was a lot fun. Tickets are over here. The Michael Centre ticket booth is open now, but that's good. Last rush sales Hey, so coming up, we've got the, um, 10th [00:33:00] performance, 10th and final. What are your thoughts on that? Um oh, a little sad, but it's probably right in some respects. Um, I, I think. You know, the show has worked very well, and I think it's It's a It's a It's a fun format. Uh, I just think maybe it's time to to leave it alone for a while. Who knows? It might. It might come back in some other form. You know, that's possible. Um, but it, um I think sometimes things [00:33:30] it hasn't run its course, But I think just finishing with a good, substantial history, it will be just good in itself. I I. I think that it because it actually requires, um, a little bit of fresh energy every year. You know, it's got it's got a similar structure, but you have to sort of change the elements around. You have to add new new things that will interest the audience, as I say. That's whether it's a genre of of swimwear or maternity wear or [00:34:00] whatever that is. Or, um uh, that that helps. And I think that's the thing is I think it's just It takes a lot to keep that sort of level of creativity up. So I think it's probably been a substantial investment of time for for Jonathan and for me. And we're happy with what we've done and and have thoroughly, never. We've got fabulous pieces of of, um, video history. I've been ending these um, interviews with other people by saying [00:34:30] if they had a special message, uh, to give to all those people out there in the dark on the final show, would would you have a message to give the audience? I think it's the same message as as well as, um, celebrate life and fun and fabulous and, you know, because that's what it's about, really. And this is This is a very special vehicle that allows us to do that. I mean, it's the colour of it. All is is probably the one I most will always remember is you can't. [00:35:00] You can. You could recreate that, but you can't take it away. It's it's very special.

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TITLE: David Hindley images
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VOICES: David Hindley
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bill Logan; Cynthia Bagwash; David Hindley; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Norman Jones; Pink Triangle collective; Tighe Instone; Wellington; homosexual law reform; human rights; images online; media; photography; politics; visual arts
DATE: 10 June 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast David talks about his photography during the period of homosexual law reform (1985/86).
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm David Hindley. And in 1985 86 I was part of the Pink Triangle, uh, magazine collective. Uh, and I was a photographer, so I took a lot of photographs, Really? From the start of the campaign, until after homosexual law reform bill was passed, What was Pink Triangle? Pink Triangle? There were two, gay and lesbian publications at that period, Art magazine and Pink Triangle and Pink Triangle was a slightly more activist one. It was a community based nonprofit, uh, publication. And we really [00:00:30] covered a lot of the key news from the law reform period. Was that Wellington based or was it a national magazine? Uh, Pink Triangle was Wellington based, but we did have people in Auckland and and other centres providing information, and it was distributed around the country. And so, during law reform, did you go to events around the country? I did. And most of the photographs are from Wellington, and most of my activities were in Wellington. But I did spend some time in Auckland as well. So why were they taken? [00:01:00] They were taken, I think, as a, uh for several reasons. One to illustrate the news stories that were covered in Pink Triangle. But also, we knew that this was really, uh, a historical event. This was a really groundbreaking, uh, event for our community, and they were taken as a record of all the different things that were going on during that time. You seem to have very good, uh, access to the events in terms of like photographing from the stage and into the crowd. Uh, how was that arranged? [00:01:30] How How did you get such good access? I think probably the the thing with the photographs is that, uh, I I'm a journalist by by training. And, uh so I'm just used to, uh, doing what journalists do, and that is you simply go where you want to do, go to get the story. So if there's a big public event and you want to take a photograph from the stage, you simply go up onto the stage to do it. And, uh uh, in some cases, you might arrange that in advance, but generally just do it and nobody stops you. [00:02:00] Was there much media interest in these events? There was huge media interest in the campaign itself, partly just because of the nature of of decriminalisation, of homosexuality, partly because of the huge political battle that, uh, developed over several years the involvement of things like the Salvation Army uh, the development of the petition which the people against the bill launched and that had huge coverage around the country. It was really something that, uh, a lot [00:02:30] of people were talking about at the events themselves. Were there mainstream media or was it more kind of community based at some of the events that were well flagged in advance? They were mainstream media. So, for example, the for the anti bill people, the presentation of the petition at Parliament that got huge coverage because they'd done a lot of work to arrange that for a lot of the other events, the smaller events in particular, there wasn't particularly much media coverage, but there was [00:03:00] some community access. Radio coverage wasn't there. That's right. I mean, most of the most of the the really good coverage and the substantial coverage was provided by community organisations like um the the collective that worked on the access radio programme and, uh, pink triangle. I've got to say these the these shots that you've taken, uh, are beautifully composed. And I'm wondering, how do you How do you compose shots in such a, uh, a fluid situation as, uh, protests or rallies. [00:03:30] I think the the key is really just being prepared to, um, to, uh to take the photograph when you when the the absolute moment is right. And so you just have to be primed and ready to just kind of, uh, click whenever you need to. I think that one of the other things is being in the middle of things and just getting a sense of how activities are developed. Seeing how things might develop, looking at two protagonists, walking towards each other and thinking right, [00:04:00] there's going to be something happen here, so I'll get ready to take the photograph. What kind of equipment were you using? I was this This was obviously in the days of film, and most of it was, um, black and white. So I was using a canon a one SLR camera. Uh, and I developed all the film, uh, myself, uh, in a laundry of a of a gay flat in street when you shot particularly close up on people. How did they react, And I'm thinking both in terms of the kind [00:04:30] of, uh, anti reform people and and also the the pro reformers. People were generally accepting of the fact that they were being photographed. I think they knew that they were involved in something which was very, very newsworthy, which was quite a big historical, um, event. And so generally people accepted that some people were very, very happy to be photographed. Other people were quite uncomfortable, and occasionally you had to, uh, really size [00:05:00] up how you were going to take a photograph and then grab it when the opportunity came because you knew that the person wouldn't otherwise allow you to do it. And I guess at this time when homosexuality was illegal to actually have a published photo of yourself in a gay magazine, that must have been quite challenging for some people. Well, it absolutely was. Because, of course, this was before the disc the days of discrim, anti discrimination legislation and things like that so people could potentially be thrown out of their jobs thrown out of their flats and things like that. Um, and [00:05:30] that did happen from time to time. Uh, this was also, uh, the days of, uh, police entrapments of police going around and, um, hassling people in gay bars and and that type of thing. So there were definitely the potential for repercussions for people who were photographed. If we could perhaps look through the the images that are on the website and and maybe just go into a wee bit more detail about what the events were and and and maybe describing some of the atmosphere around [00:06:00] the events, Uh, the first one we're looking at is, uh, looks like the Salvation Army. Where is this? This is in Vivian Street in Wellington. This is the old Salvation Army building. It's it's since been pulled down and replaced with a big new flash one. But this was very early on in the campaign when the Salvation Army had just announced that they were going to, uh, take an active role in opposing law reform. And so, uh, we had a group come together on a Sunday morning to, uh, have a demonstration outside the Salvation Army. [00:06:30] Uh, and to be honest, a lot of the Salvation Army people who came along, I think, were quite surprised and quite bemused to see us. Some of them were quite hostile. Others really wanted to have a conversation about things. Um, I think a lot of people in the Salvation Army had the feeling that, uh, the opposition that the army had to the bill was something that was led by the hierarchy at the top. And they really didn't have much say in that. [00:07:00] And quite a few people in the Salvation Army were very uncomfortable, Uh, about the role that the army played, Uh, this was also one of the, um, first demonstrations when we had a had a real inkling of the the nature of of these sorts of things that would, um, be carried out throughout the whole campaign. One of the elements was an element of humour. So Tiggy Instone, for example, in one of the photographs, uh, is carrying a banner that says, [00:07:30] Ban the Bonnet, which is a classic Tiggy. I mean, bringing a sense of humour to it, that there's a there's a there's a a real message behind what she's doing. But there's also a sense of just just lightening the mood. Um and, um and that was a a very, um, important part of the campaign. But there's also the real confrontational stuff in that when people said something that's particularly nasty or particularly objectionable, um, we we challenged it. [00:08:00] You've got an image here of the police being involved in in this, uh, demonstration. How were they at this stage? The police, uh, had a bit of a difficult role. They the police were did put a submission in about the law reform, and and the police, uh, opposed homosexual law reform. Um, so and as I say, the police had a long history up until this point of entrapment of gay men of, um, [00:08:30] going into gay bars and and going into gay bathhouses and so on and and, uh, really making life difficult for gay men in particular. Um, they were very careful around this, I think, because they knew that it was a high profile event, that they were being photographed and that they were being watched. Um, but they definitely didn't. Um uh didn't hesitate to [00:09:00] to pull people back or to get a little physical, uh, if they felt it was warranted. The next couple of photos are of a gay task force stall. Where is this. That was, uh, that was in a show. Um, Wellington used to have in in the show. Buildings used to have a a big show each year, which was, uh, had all sorts of different stalls. And they were typically for, uh, different types of community organisations and businesses and and so [00:09:30] on, and they weren't weren't generally political, but, uh, the gay task force, uh, had a stall and handed out some information. It was a little bit controversial. A few people were very surprised to see us there, but that was part of just reaching out and getting our message across was that the store that was almost banned because it wasn't meant to be a political trade feud. That's right. That's one of the occasions when, uh, we got our foot in the door and then people tried to close the door, but we kept our foot there [00:10:00] and we just said, no, we have a right to be here, and we're going to be here. And what was the public reaction? Uh, generally quite good. I think one of the things over this period is that a lot of the people supported law reform. I think one of the reasons that law reform went through was that there had been a change in the mood. Um, in the general public, a lot of people looked at the idea of seven years imprisonment for consenting, um, adult activity and thought that that was crazy. [00:10:30] And of course, you got some opposition, but, um, there was a lot of support as well. The next series of photos highlights a fire. What? What? What is this of? This was a lesbian and gay rights resource centre in, uh, in a building in Cott Street. Um, and this was a This was a the the forerunner of, uh, of the archives. It was where, uh, records were kept. Uh, magazines and documents were kept. It was where the Pink Triangle [00:11:00] Collective came together to have meetings and put the magazine together. Uh, there was an arson attack on the centre, and there was quite a lot of damage caused. Um, and we had no doubts at all that it was related to the campaign and that it was a It was a a anti gay event. And in one of the photos I see was it fag? Is is kind of written on the What is that? That's right. It was almost funny in a in a way. Somebody had had scrolled the word fag on the floor, but they'd actually found [00:11:30] a bottle of of twink on the desk. And they had twink the letter fag on the floorboards, which was in one way, it's it's insulting. But in the other way, it's just so funny that someone had done it. Um, in twink. It's a very, very, very, very odd thing to have done the arson. How did that impact on on the like the pink triangle? Um, collective and and also the the the other members. It was something [00:12:00] that a few people took particularly hard because, uh, the the lesbian Gay Archives reflected a lot of work over a lot of years by by some individuals Phil Parkinson in particular, but others as well. And so it was. There was a a real sense of shock and anger that that had happened. Uh, it didn't stop anything at all. It didn't didn't really dent the campaign, and it didn't stop pink triangle from going out. [00:12:30] Um, in fact, it just, um, spurred on a lot of people to, uh, to become even more active and in the photograph with three people standing. Can you just identify who those people are? Yes. Uh, the person on the left hand side is Phil Parkinson, who is a curator and and has very, very long, um, and extraordinary, um, commitment to, uh, to lesbian and gay archives. Uh, Bill Logan in the middle. Uh, Bill Logan was a coordinator of the the Lesbian Gay Task [00:13:00] Force and one of the key players, Uh, over the period and then Phil, uh, Peter Knowland on the right hand side. Uh, and Peter was, um, amongst other things, uh, one of the key players behind the access radio programme Gay BC. And out of this fire is this where the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand came from? It's part of it that the the um the resource centre was certainly the forerunner. And a lot of the material that went from the resource centre went into the Lagos [00:13:30] Uh, and in fact, I think in Lagos there are probably still a few documents which have, uh, a little bit of sending around the edges which date from the fire the next series of photographs is a street march. Can you tell me where where this is? Yes. This is a street march in Wellington. Uh, there were some mixed, uh, feelings politically about this. A few of the parliamentary supporters didn't particularly want, uh, gay [00:14:00] people to to have a high profile in the campaign. But within the community, we thought it was incredibly important to have a high profile just to give us give ourselves the visibility, but also to support each other. Uh, and in fact, we knew that we get support for a street march and and we did. People turned out in their thousands and marched from Bunny Street outside the railway station, uh, around to Courtney place to Pigeon Park. What was the response from bystanders? [00:14:30] Uh, again, the response was very supportive. Um, quite a few of the people who marched were were, um, heterosexual people who just supported, um, law reform and in the crowd, people watching us as we marched along, there were a lot of supporters and, of course, the odd, um, opposition person. But the march was generally a very so as well as a demonstration of support for law reform there was There was there were always elements of celebration [00:15:00] and these sorts of things. The fact that we were changing history, that we were all together and that that we were we were visible. We were standing up, um, and making ourselves visible and saying this is going to happen. How was something like this organised? I'm thinking pre cell phone, Pre Internet. How? How? How did you kind of rally this amount of people? Well, it's interesting because, uh, it was before all of those sorts of things, and we just did it the old fashioned way of just, um, uh, putting posters around [00:15:30] the place, uh, phoning people up, Um, and just basically getting on the grapevine and just talking to as many people as we could. It looks a very diverse crowd as well. Oh, absolutely. It was extraordinarily diverse. Um, there were people who there? There were gay and lesbian couples who've been together since before the Second World War. Uh, there were teenagers. Um, there were heterosexual families with, um, Children. Um, [00:16:00] there were lesbians with their Children. Um, there there were just, um all sorts of, um, people. That was fantastic. the next couple of photos show, uh, some kind of gathering. I I'm I'm guessing after a march and kind of performance was that Was that a big part of of of this whole thing as well. It was one of the things that we did after, uh, the march, Um uh, concluded in pigeon park was to have some have a few speeches, um, but [00:16:30] also have some entertainment. Um, um and that was great again that that, um, lifted the spirits of people because it was an incredibly difficult challenging time. Um, it gave us a few things to laugh about. Um, really helped to, uh, to bring people together moving on to the next series of photos, which appear to be Is it an anti reform meeting? It was. This was in the Knox church hall in lower Hutt. [00:17:00] Um, it was a camp. It was a meeting that was organised by opponents of law reform and, uh, Jeff Bray, Brook. Uh, and all the key opponents of law reform were there. Um, but there was also a very strong contingent of lesbians and gay men there who were determined not to let, uh, the sort of rubbish that was going on. Go on unchallenged. And so there were lots of challenges from the floor. And, uh, Norman Jones [00:17:30] and some of the other speakers made the mistake of saying, Look, we've paid for this church hall. You haven't It's our right to speak. And we said, Well, how about if we pay half? Um uh, and so they agreed. Uh, and so there was, um, lots of money collected from, uh, from the lesbians and gay men there. We came up with half of the rental of the hall, and then Bill Logan and Alison Laurie went on to the stage to to speak. So it was an absolutely, [00:18:00] um, extraordinary event and and amazingly, chronicled in in these images, Um, especially, you know, I'm looking at the this. This is Bill Logan standing up and and talking to the the stage. That's right. So Bill really stood up and, uh, just said just really fought for the right to have our speakers there. Um, and, uh, there was this long discussion, um, with [00:18:30] the anti gay MP S and various other people. But eventually the outcome was that we had, uh, our people speaking from the stage as well. Can we just identify the the the people on the stage? Um, for instance, there is a shot of Bill Logan pointing up to the stage and you've got Who is that? Um, the MP S are Norman Jones, Uh, Jeff Bray Brook. And, um, Mr Young, I forget his first name, and there's a fantastic [00:19:00] shot of counting the money on the stage floor. That's right. I mean, this was an extraordinary drama that obviously the people who organised the meeting weren't expecting at all, and and we just couldn't believe our luck that this was happening, but the money was all collected. It was counted up. Uh, we had to find a couple of $100 to pay for half of the hall hire for that night. We came up with more than that, and, uh, then we we had, um, Alison and Bill on the stage, [00:19:30] uh, speaking in support of law reform, and, uh, some of the people who who were sitting in the audience were were just, uh I think gobsmacked by the whole thing. What was the atmosphere like? It was absolutely extraordinary. Really. We had We couldn't believe how we'd really taken over this meeting. And, um, I don't think this was planned at all, but, uh, we just really, uh, plan not to let them say the sort of rubbish that they were [00:20:00] they were coming up with, uh, and there was just a meeting of just a sense of of amazement and again, almost of of of, uh, joy that it had turned out this way and that we could, uh, listen to Alison and Bill speaking from the stage and cheer them on. Who is the chap with his hands over his ears? He was just, uh, an opponent of the bill who obviously was not happy to, uh, to listen to to our speakers. And I [00:20:30] have to say there were quite a few people in the audience, Uh, Patricia Bartlett, Uh, a famous, uh, leader of society of the promotion of community standards. She was a very staunch opponent of, um, pornography, uh, as well as lesbian and gay rights. And there were quite a few very, uh, shocked people in the audience. The next series of photos, uh, show us AAA kind of dance party at the Wellington Town Hall. Yes. [00:21:00] There's a There were several events held at the Wellington town Hall. There were a couple of rallies. Um, where we basically just got a lot of people together and and, uh, entertainment, Uh, really, To lift spirits, uh, to to keep people going during the campaign. Um, And then at the end of the campaign, there was a, uh, celebratory party, um, in the old town hall as well. Is this party the the big party at the end? I think I think what we have here is a is the, uh, the final, uh, party [00:21:30] after the bill had passed. And then we have a shot of Fran Wild on stage. Is this at the bigot busters rally? This? Yes. This is from a a series of photographs taken. Um, uh, Lloyd Scott, I think, is probably emceeing. He's on stage there. There's a photograph of the top twins, um, singing and, uh, entertaining the crowd. Um, and then a number of speakers. Um, [00:22:00] so we had, um some key, uh, speakers came to these things on the stage. Uh, Lloyd Geering was one of the the people who spoke, um, at at in a rally at the old Town Hall. Uh, Sonia Davies. Um, we also got, uh, messages of support from overseas and from people around the country that we read out, and the chap on stage wearing a kind of a hunting hat. Who is he? Oh, that. That was Michael Wilson. The chap with a kind of a pith [00:22:30] helmet. Um, he was really taking off Norman Jones. Norman Jones was an extraordinary character who, uh, came out with extraordinary statements. Um, he was speaking in Parliament once against the bill, and And I think Fran or someone else yelled out, You're obsessed and he said, Yes, I am. But it's a magnificent obsession. He had a he he was said some some horrific things. But there was almost a clownish element to a lot of, uh, of how he presented himself. [00:23:00] And this is what Michael Wilson was taking off. It's a very large crowd at this rally. It is. We filled, uh, we filled the old town hall. Um, and these things were incredibly important because there was, uh, real uncertainty at this stage about whether the bill was would pass. There was a huge campaign against the bill passing not only the salvation Army. But some very, um, high profile people like [00:23:30] Keith Hay of of Keith A. Holmes was putting money into this, uh, a number of other high profile business people. Um, a lot of churches around the country, particularly fundamentalist churches, were really, um, working hard against the bill. Some of them were bringing in people from overseas to speak against the bill. Uh, there was some horrific violence, um, against, uh, lesbians or gay men during the campaign. Um, some with very serious consequences. And so we really needed [00:24:00] events that would lift people's spirits, give us an opportunity to to get together and support each other. There's a a sequence of shots here. One is, uh, a sequence with Ian Scott, who was, um uh, a very early, um out gay member of, uh, um candidate, I should say, for parliament Uh, Fran Wild and Alison Laurie. Um, other shots include Grant [00:24:30] mouldy, uh, wearing it, Uh, a bigger busters. T-shirt and the Big busters logo was a cartoon of, um, Norman Jones. Really? As a kind of an old fashioned, uh, clown really with a with a pith helmet. Um, and of course, that was based on the Ghostbusters. Uh, idea which was around at the time, Um, and there's a a photograph there of, uh, three people blowing out candles. Um, uh, on a birthday [00:25:00] cake with a with 16 on it. This reflects the fact that the age of consent was, uh, a real area of, uh, of battle. Uh, a lot of people were pushing for us to lift the age of consent or put particularly pushing Fran to accept a higher age of consent than 16. Uh, because, uh, they said that there'd been more likelihood of the bill passing if it was a higher age of consent. And, of course, from our point of view, we wanted an equal age of consent. So we were working [00:25:30] very, very hard to make sure that there was, uh, no, um uh, pulling back on that and that we went for an equal age of consent. The next series of shots appears to be another anti law reform rally in the town hall again. Quite populated, isn't it? It is. This this was another, um, rally, uh, set up to oppose the bill. Um, after a while, they stopped advertising [00:26:00] anti gay rallies because they were worried that we would turn up and disrupt them. So, uh, it it definitely we definitely had a tactic that paid off in just not letting them get away with this sort of thing. But again, the speaker started, um, saying things which were quite objectionable. And so lesbians or gay men in the audience just started, uh, standing up and challenging it. Uh, and in fact, it turned out to be a little bit of a circus, particularly towards the end. Um, and there were [00:26:30] police there, and they, uh, hold a few, uh, people out. Um, but there was a lot of argument, really between, um uh, pro and anti bill people. Did the police actions get more strident? As as the campaign went on, I think the police were aware that there was, uh, violence going on, um, against gay men, but they hadn't [00:27:00] particularly taken that sort of thing. Seriously, uh, I know personally that I was involved in a in an incident at the Railway tavern where a group I was with a group of gay men and we were beaten up and and one was, um, concussed and had to be taken to hospital, and it was very, very difficult to get the police to accept a complaint and to get them to investigate that and effectively, they didn't. Nothing happened. Um, and the police were, um, [00:27:30] active in, um, trying to trying to shut some people up at some of these campaigns. And again at the at the pre the presentation of the bill outside parliament, there were just two shots in this next sequence where it's it's almost is it a review that's going on? Yes. This is a, uh this was, uh this was one of the, um, rallies that we [00:28:00] had, uh, at the town hall just to lift spirits. And one of the photographs is Tiggy and stone in a dress. Um, Tiggy was fantastic. She played a number of characters, um, and did a quick change and then came through sort of and seeing, um, with Linda Evans helping her do the quick changes backstage. Uh, Tiggy also went to some demonstrations, uh, in various guises, with uh dressed as as kind [00:28:30] of outrageous characters and in some cases, was was taken at face value by, uh, bill opponents, which was just extraordinary. And she could get into a meeting. And, um, just be be amazed that, um uh, that that really no one had sort of saw that, that she was, uh, she was taking the piss a little bit. The final sequence of images is Fran Wilde. And where where are these taken? These are taken in the foyer of Parliament. [00:29:00] Uh, the bill, um, was discussed in parliament over a long period of time. The the different readings and so on. Uh, and so we spent a lot of time, uh, listening to the speakers in parliament. Um, and, uh, this is Fran Just explaining to lesbians or gay men what was going to happen, What the procedure was, uh, was going to be. And this is towards the end of the campaign. So was there quite a turnout of gay and lesbians? [00:29:30] Uh, during the parliamentary debates? Oh, there absolutely was. I mean, that was a real focus for activity, just to see what was going on and and what was happening. Um, and, uh, it was it was a focus for the opponents of the bill as well. There were a group of, uh, conservative, uh, people would come and sort of set up and outside parliament buildings and and pray and light candles and things like that, uh, praying for the, uh, for the defeat of the bill. Um, but, uh, particularly [00:30:00] at the end, when the final vote came, Uh, there were a lot of us there. And it was just an extraordinary, um, day because we really had no guarantee that the bill was going to pass. We suspected that there were the numbers in favour of it, but we knew it would be incredibly close. Uh, we knew that you could probably count on the fingers of one hand that the majority that it will get. So, um, it was very, very nail biting in the final image in the sequence [00:30:30] of the final image in the sequence is Ruth Dyson, Fran Wilde and Trevor Mallard. Uh, and this was taken at the Victoria Club in Oriental Bay. The Victoria Club was a, uh uh, a club, uh, lesbian gay club, which, uh, had, um premises on the first floor of a building right in the heart of Oriental Bay. And members went up there to have drinks and dinner and so on. After the bill passed a lot of people went back there to celebrate. And, uh, Fran [00:31:00] and Trevor, uh, and Ruth came up as well. So what kind of life have these images had after after pink triangle? Uh, a lot of these images didn't really appear in pink triangle. A few of them did. But there were an awful lot that sat as negatives for quite a while without being printed. And then, um, they first came together for an exhibition that was put together to mark the 20 years, um, of the [00:31:30] passage of the bill. And there was an exhibition held in Alexander Turnbull house in Wellington. Uh, and that was all that was subsequently went to Christchurch. Uh, there was it was shown in Christchurch and also, uh, Auckland. Uh, and then they've gradually been picked up. Since then, it's really the most complete record, particularly of, uh, events through the campaign in Wellington. Do you have any final thoughts about the images? [00:32:00] Um, I really just want to express appreciation to all the people who, uh, were in front of the camera during this, and and the, um the support that I got, um it was very important to to document this because, um it was an incredible struggle. Uh, it was something that we achieved, uh, ourselves. We can be incredibly proud we weren't given law reform. It's something that we stood up and and we demanded [00:32:30] and we fought for. And, uh so I think it's incredibly important that we know what happened and that we have this record of it. Um, I'd I'd also like to urge anyone who's taking photographs now to store them very carefully and to print them out. One of the advantages I had of taking photographs with film is that I have the negatives and, uh, leg ends will have the negatives. And so there's a record. There's a permanent record there. [00:33:00] One of the great dangers with digital photography is people take a great photograph, but don't print it out. Don't store it properly, it gets deleted. And there are some events which have actually been very well covered with photographs. But there aren't any photographs left because they were all taken digitally and they've since been erased. So if you're taking images of something which uh may have, um, value in the future, then for goodness sake, save it.

IRN: 144
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/geoffrey_marshall_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003891
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089185
TITLE: Geoffrey Marshall profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Geoffrey Marshall
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; Auckland; Gay Auckland Business Association (GABA); Geoffrey Marshall; Heroic Gardens; gay; profile
DATE: 8 May 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Geoffrey talks about growing up, Heroic Gardens and the Gay Auckland Business Association (GABA).
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi. I'm Jeffrey Marshall. Um, I'm 59 years old. Um, I came out at about 22 and have been involved in the gay community since that time. While not driven to leadership, I've tended to step up when I see a perceived need. Um, sometimes this is a I've been asked to join things, and then things have led from there other times. Um, it's just happened in a different way. Um, I remember [00:00:30] at secondary school, um, I wasn't elected to prefect, which was not completely surprising, but perhaps disappointing. And at the same time, it was a period when the, uh, students associations were being developed. Um, and so another a girl from the school and I actually set up the students association in that college. Uh, it wasn't hugely successful. Um, we weren't. We were driven more by the idea, perhaps, than having a need to actually achieve anything. But I guess it was the first sign of the way [00:01:00] I would perhaps behave later in life. Where do you think taking that kind of initiative comes from? I guess it's innate in the sense and in family upbringing. I've just always felt well, certainly as an adult. I've always known that if you saw that something was wrong, then you should do something about it. There's no point sitting back and complaining and doing nothing. You just had to get on and do something. Um, my mother was intelligent and intellectual, and [00:01:30] we used to have a lot of discussions, Um, as teenagers over the dishes and so on. So I was used to thinking my father was a businessman. So I guess from him I learned, um, not exactly drive and motivation alone, but the sense of getting out and doing things for yourself, I suppose those two things came together. Um, certainly. I was part of that, uh, late sixties Anti-vietnam generation, very concerned with social [00:02:00] issues. So the whole tenor of the time was that you were if you had a conscience, you got out there and did something about it. So were you involved with any specific groups? No. No, it was just a discussion with, um contemporaries and going on marches. Really? And how did that interrelate with your family? How did your parents react to to those kind of issues? Uh, my father was horrified. He had lost his only sibling in the Second World War. And he [00:02:30] felt that the Anti-war people were, um, just completely, utterly wrong. I remember chucking him chucking, um, friends of mine out of the house. And we were sitting around talking about, um, Anti-vietnam stuff. Antiwar stuff. One day, he got really angry and upset because of his brother. My mother was always sympathetic to the idea. When your father did that, how did how did you feel? Oh, God. Um, I was probably embarrassed that he had done it, um, and [00:03:00] upset. But I suppose I understood at the same time where he was coming from. Personally, I suppose. I mean, it's it's a it is. It is part of my character that I'm incredibly objective and rational, and so I always know that my way is not my view is not the only view possible. So I could see it from his point of view. As much as I disagreed with him, So was it quite AAA liberal or conservative household? It was a pretty liberal household. [00:03:30] No, my my parents were, uh well, what we're talking about mid sixties, uh, they were proactive in providing sex, sex education, to us. Um, and because my mother was intelligent and rational, um, everything was up for discussion. My father was an unthinking as an unconsidered conservative. It was just natural to him. But, um, other than that, he tended to let us. He they we just had freedom to develop our own ways. Pretty largely. So [00:04:00] when did you start realising that you liked men? Subconsciously, it was always there. But it wasn't until I read the Kinsey report at the end of secondary school. About 18, I think. And in the Kinsey report, he talks about bisexuality for the first time. Or at least that was the first time I'd ever come across it. And the moment it was quite revelatory. The the second I read that sentence, I remember thinking, Ah, [00:04:30] so that's what it's all about. And it made sense of things that I had experienced dreams I'd had or experienced or things that had happened over the past teenage years that I'd basically buried as being unacceptable and incomprehensible because I knew I was interested in women as well, or girls, at least at that stage. But at that point I recognised bisexuality and that it was from there on, it was more just a, um a process of several years and realising that in fact, the gay part was dominant. And now I would describe myself [00:05:00] as being exclusively gay. Um, but I think a lot of that and I find this is an interesting subject in itself. I think a lot of our sexual behaviour is learned and can be unlearned so that my sexual responses to women in those days, um, have basically been forgotten. Had you been aware of kind of homosexuality prior to that Kinsey report? Oh, yes. Um, certainly my best friend and I have been playing around since we were very small, [00:05:30] Um, which wasn't seen as homosexuality, but it was It was there. Um, no I. I was aware because there was there were things that had happened. I knew that, um, there were men who had I'd been followed once by a man, and I understood what was happening. Um, and I'd be being befriended by someone who was gay, and I knew what he wanted. But I was prepared to do things with him occasionally, [00:06:00] as in outings, while rejecting his advances. So I was aware of what it meant. It was just that, um, given that I was I seem to I was responding to girls. I just assumed it wasn't me. Were you involved in the gay political movements in the in the sixties and seventies? Uh, once I moved to Auckland, that was the I moved to Auckland in what, about 71? Uh, the There was the, um, gay rights [00:06:30] Gay Liberation Front on campus, and they were staging marches. Um, down Queen Street was particularly, and I took part in those and the gay dancers. So to only to the degree that, um, I was part of that loose, wider community. How was it marching in a gay rights march? Um, both exhilarating and frightening. Um, it was for me. I always have a need to be true to myself. [00:07:00] So to stand up and be counted was important personally and politically and quite exhilarating because of freedom, it creates at the same time, being very aware that there were people on the sidelines who were shouting abuse. And, uh, there was negativity around that. But in the end, I was strong. That was fine. [00:07:30] So another strand of your life that we haven't touched on yet is the whole idea of of nature and gardens and plants. When did that, um, aspect of your life begin? That's always been there. Uh, right from as from as long as I can remember, I've always been interested in the natural world. I've always explored the plants, animals. I, you might say now to my Shane, collected birds, eggs, collected butterflies, collected anything, grew plants. Uh, [00:08:00] as a teenager, my father built me a glasshouse so I could grow orchids. I mean, this is a This has always been a part of me. I left it behind for some years. I became a computer operator and programmer, um, and then went back to it when I was in England, where I wasn't legally allowed to work and managed to find work with a, um, uh, garden maintenance company and discovered that, um, I didn't actually melt in the rain, and I could work outside, and I didn't have to have an intellectual occupation. So when [00:08:30] I came back to Auckland, um, I had did a couple of things briefly, but basically through meeting someone who was working in garden and garden design in Auckland. Um, in the boom time of the eighties, when there was heaps of work, he basically gave me a list custom, a whole lot of customers, and, um, that just got me into it. But, um, the gardening. So the gardening is just a natural outshoot of a long interest in natural history. My initial interest was really about the plants [00:09:00] and growing them as much as anything. The design is almost grafted onto that, but I've always been interested in design in a general sense. I remember I was very interested in architecture as a kid, and I might have become an architect, except that, um, a friend of my father's who was an architect, assured me that architecture was all about building office buildings. And I wasn't interested in at least in that I was interested in housing. Um, so I abandoned the idea. Um, so the design grew [00:09:30] on me. Really? I suppose the more I worked in that area, the more I became aware of gardening or design possibilities. Um, it's always been a believer. Instinctively, I suppose. In lifelong education, I never stopped reading, talking, looking. Um, So the design skills slowly grow. What what goes into a good garden design? What what are the things that you look at? I have never been a designer who wants to create their own fantasy [00:10:00] or who wants to do hugely innovative things. My interest in garden design has always been about creating an environment for the clients to live in. So atmosphere has always been very, very important in creating a garden for me. Um, it's about integrating plants and gardens into a client's life. I've never been interested in the particularly the wow factor of someone walking in and saying, [00:10:30] Oh God, look at that. And then you find it's boring two months later because they've seen it. There's nothing really there. I want to create an atmosphere that can be lived in and explore that changes with the season. And I think that's perhaps where, uh, in the I'm a mm. I'm not an artist. I'm a synthesiser. I think that I've always made that distinction. And what is that distinction? What? Oh, I think a true artist is [00:11:00] a real innovator, Um, that they're flooded with ideas that they want to express where a synthesiser draws the elements that others have created which are the elements that we live within in society and puts together puts them together in a way which is satisfying. Um, the true creators are not synthesisers, but the synthesisers probably create products that the general market find [00:11:30] satisfying. There was some fantastic, uh, quotes, and I was an article that you featured in. I think it was 2009. Um, the idea of using familiar plants in an unfamiliar way and also that whole kind of less is more type thing. When you come to arranging or designing gardens, can you talk a wee bit about that? I would re result somewhat from the lessons more because it's easily misunderstood. I don't believe in minimalist gardens [00:12:00] at all. Um, As for using familiar plants in unusual ways, it's more. It's not about unusualness for the sake of it, but rather that familiar plants can be seen a new or suddenly they become attractive. When you didn't think they were by juxtaposition with other plants or in certain environments. So it's about creating a totality of atmosphere, textures, light and shade shades of colour. Uh, [00:12:30] and that, I think, is what I really meant about the um, the old, you know, familiar plants and unfamiliar settings. And also that colour is important in my gardens, but that it's not necessarily the colour of flowers. It's more the structural elements in the garden and the structure of greenery and and foliage colours, which are more year round. You belong to the fifth season. Can you tell me about that? What is that? The fifth season was a garden [00:13:00] group set up, I think about 95. Um, it was the idea of it was to have monthly meetings with generally outings to gardens or things of garden related interest and some social activities. And we saw an ad, probably. And I think it might have been man to man at that stage and joined within the first few months of it. Um, so the fifth season as it became. It wasn't known as that initially was one of the groups [00:13:30] which also led to the creation of the Hero Gardens Festival. Um, there's some dispute over where the initiative actually came from, but between, uh, gaba and the fifth season, the idea of a garden festival to raise money for her Bay house came about so initially It was a very much a joint effort between the two groups GABA providing some, uh, money backing and organisational background and fifth season providing, uh, gardens [00:14:00] and garden knowledge to be able to make it happen. Where does the name for the season come from? Oh, God knows. Um, we had another name. I think it was, but it was already registered. So when we became a registered group, they had to find a new name and all sorts of names were thrown up, and one of them names that was thrown up was fifth season. No one could ever really explain why it was a good idea. I always hated it. I think the idea was as a gay group, Um, we were outside the normal run of things and therefore [00:14:30] the idea of the fifth season outside the Four Seasons was somehow appropriate. I still think it's rubbish. And when you say a gay group, is it open to transgender lesbian? Oh, no. It was always a GB LT group. Um, the big issue in the early stages of whether the straight should be allowed to join. And not that I particularly remember anyone wanting to, um No, but no. It's been a mixed group from the start, very much, and it's quite sizable, isn't it? It's generally been 3, 350 [00:15:00] people have belonged over the years. Yeah, that's a very strong group. Oh, yeah. I mean, for a long time, we were probably the biggest gay, um, group in, well, New Zealand, probably certainly in Auckland. And given the population, that probably means New Zealand. Um, and it's always been a very good group because it wasn't revolving around youth or bar or anything like that. It was always very much a community organisation, Um, with anyone who was interested in gardens, even vaguely as a, you know, social group where [00:15:30] they could, you know, spend an afternoon going and visiting gardens, even with minimal knowledge. It was so it was a very good community group. Always. Yeah. So in the early days of the Heroic Gardens Festival, how many gardens from from that, um, fifth season group were were involved from memory? I think all of the initial gardens were owned by fifth season members apart from Horn Bay House itself, which we included in which was included in the first Couple of festivals. [00:16:00] Um, and it was only a bit further down the track. Um, when we needed to keep finding new gardens to refresh her gardens, that we needed to go outside, uh, and find find more gardens. And that often brought in people who weren't fifth season members. Although usually, especially once I was involved, we always tried to sign those people up to become fifth season members, which usually worked, at least for one year. [00:16:30] So these are all private gardens that are opened up to the public? Yes. All private. Yes. The idea always was that it was a showcase of gay owned or gay lesbian. Whatever. Um, gay owned gardens, um, opening as a fundraiser. And so how did it work? Oh, it was a It's always been a two day festival, Um, opening for six or eight hours a day. I can't remember exactly what it is. Probably longer, um, people buy a ticket and then [00:17:00] have two days to visit as many or as few of those gardens as they wish. Uh, the interesting thing, particularly in the beginning, it was very obvious that a lot of people buying tickets were as interested in the houses and lifestyles of the owners, and we sort of had to discourage people from peering in windows, et cetera, Uh, that had helped to draw the punters. So we were I was happy. Not everybody liked it. Um, in the first year they were, it was largely, I think, gay and lesbian visitors, [00:17:30] mainly because of where we could advertise but that quickly ramped up. And, um Well, God knows, by this third year, at least, if not earlier, we realised that the majority of visitors not the majority but the the biggest element were probably middle aged women interested in gardens and, uh, really not caring too much who own them. They just wanted to see plants and gardens. And, um, all the other big thing that we did, which proved very successful from the beginning, [00:18:00] really was we made sure that, um the garden owners were present to talk to visitors, and that was always a really important element of its success. I think how many visitors would go through a particular garden? Uh, hugely various at its peak. Uh, I know in our garden we had anything up to 1800 people over the two days. Uh, the Central City Gardens, especially the ones that were no better known, would get those sort of numbers consistently for several years. Um, so, yeah, there was a lot of people, that [00:18:30] number of people, uh, the kind of logistics of, actually, you know, allowing people through your garden or even just things like parking on the street. How How did you go about organising that parking on the street? I didn't want to know about, um because our garden was always open. I never had to face that. Although occasionally you would get anecdotal reports of people walking for miles down the road to reach us, but in selecting gardens, because I was involved with the organisation from year three. In selecting the gardens, we tried to make sure that there was, [00:19:00] um, reasonable access for a large number of people IE in terms of circularity. If there was a narrow passage, only then we had to think twice about a garden. So ideally, there should be separate, um, egress and ingress, just to make it easier to handle the numbers. Um, there were times sure when gardens became incredibly crowded, but, um, and are actually there were gardens. I remember where we did have to consider limiting the numbers at anyone's stage. So if things got [00:19:30] too crowded, we allowed for the possibility of people being asked to wait at the gate until, you know, people had left. And we were We knew about this problem because of the Trinity Garden Festival, um, which had run several times earlier and that we had picked up some ideas from and certainly they had some quite strict controls. So we were aware of that problem. Now you were the chair of the Hero Heroic Gardens Festival for a number of years, and, in fact, about seven years. What was involved with that role for you? I suppose [00:20:00] it was again, uh, ultimately about stepping up to a need. The person who had essentially run it for the first three years had to back off, uh, for personal reasons. And just because it always was exhausting. And so the members of the committee that left were left asked if I would share it. Um, I would add that at this point to my partner, John has always been very important to all the joint efforts. Things that we've done [00:20:30] um so he's always been there as well. But so that was a matter then of of improving the festival and making it work as well as we could. One of the reasons I got involved in running the, uh festival was because I've been critical in the second year of the way the ticket was designed. And so someone said, Well, if you think you've got a better idea, come on the committee and do something about it, which is what I did. Um, And once I took over chairmanship, um, it was a continuing process of trying to make the festival work better of [00:21:00] in all ways. Really. You know, the quality of the gardens maintaining the standards, the numbers of gardens, keeping that consistent future planning so that we would try and always if somebody wasn't didn't want to open their garden, try and tee them up for a future year. Um, we worked very hard. It was seven years. We worked very hard to develop the festival, and I think at its peak, when we finished, we gave, I think about 60,000, um, to the city mission [00:21:30] who had taken over from Bay House as our charity of choice at that stage because Bay House had closed. Um, we always believed in the festival both as a fundraiser and as a community event as a showcase for the gay community to the wider straight public. Because we had become very aware that the images created for a lot of straight people by the Garden fest were extremely positive. Of course, [00:22:00] it was a long way from the bars and and sex as much as I love bars and sex. Uh, but it so it became very yeah, it was just a really important PR exercise for the wider community or to the wider community, as well as being a great focus for the for the gay community in Auckland. It's interesting hearing you speak, um, because a number of times you've said things about, you know, stepping up and and and kind of, uh, taking on the challenge and [00:22:30] the whole idea that you don't need to accept how things are now but that things can change and that you're always looking to improve or move forward or create a positive difference. Yeah, I There's two parts that I think I'm very much a realist. which means if I think that something is a pipe dream, I'm not going to put the energy into something which I see is absolutely hopeless. [00:23:00] But if I can see real scope for improvement in perhaps small ways, then I can see you know, Then I think you are duty bound. Um, you owe it to the wider community, something like that, to to do something, Um, all of the things that I have become involved with, I've essentially been asked to do. And then where? Because I do see room for improvement. I speak up or do [00:23:30] something. Um, I don't have a lot of patients with dreamers, but I equally get very frustrated with people who criticise think they can see how something should be done, but they won't actually make any efforts to do something about it themselves. Um, it seems to me that the that middle way of everybody making the improvements they see possible, um is is really important to society. Another interesting thing that I I'm picking up is how one [00:24:00] thing leads to another. So the gardening leading to the the fifth season leading to the heroic gardens and that lead on then to the Gabba Charitable Trust. Yes, it was. I was trying to think about the timeline of this earlier. Um, I sort of got involved in the organisation for heroic gardens. Um, I don't think I was chair at that stage, and the charitable trust was being set up. I don't think I was even a member of GABA, but someone decided that, um, [00:24:30] I might be useful on the trust, so I was invited to join. Um, that seemed like an interesting idea. And I suppose I was flattered, of course. So I became a trustee, and that was always very interesting because our major role really in those days was to distribute the money that GABA had raised. So it meant, um, having my say about which community groups got supported, which is always an interesting idea, Um, and just being [00:25:00] involved and meeting different people and seeing what was out there, it was always good fun. What? What kind of drove your decisions in terms of what were the groups that you thought really should be, you know, worth supporting. We made a decision very early on which I was very keen on, um, which was that the money shouldn't go to individuals for their own benefit. But as much as possible, all the help should go to groups which then fed back into the community. So [00:25:30] it was perhaps, um, supporting like the swim team got uniforms. That was a a community driver, um, or body positive or, um, God, Rainbow youth. So it was. Yeah, it was about It was about the wider community. It was about education in its broadest sense. Those are the areas I was interested in changing attitudes over your time with the the charitable [00:26:00] trust. Have you found that it's been easier to to raise money or is it actually got harder to actually tap them to? To To? Well, the trust was never really a fundraising body. It was designed as the, um, the spending body. If you like that. Eventually you ran into problems because the the gabber executive changed over the years and became partly because I think the way the trust had behaved, we had sort of Deli made [00:26:30] a point of saying that we were separate from the executive. We had our own decisions to make. We came to be seen as a separate body and the executive, in under changing leadership, began to wonder why they were supporting the trust and why we weren't raising the money. It was never the idea. Um and so for a mixture of reasons, that was part of it. Also, perhaps the economic climate. Certainly we started the charity auction, which was the main, [00:27:00] um, source of funds for the trust started to get more difficult with the, um, recession. Was it three or four years ago? Um, and the whole mood of what we're doing now has started to change under new leadership again. Into what? Well, um, the trust and gabber are drawing closer again, and we we started looking for new ways of raising money. So I mean, these are in early stages yet and [00:27:30] remains to be seen how successful they've been. But certainly under the, um, new President Glenn Sims, he's been very keen that the trust and the community activities should come back as a a focus which had been lost for a couple of years in terms of the applicants to the charitable trust. Has that changed over the time that you've you've been there, has the the type of applicant changed? No, Uh, not really. [00:28:00] The biggest change actually came from a trust initiative. Uh, was while I was the chair of the trust, but it wasn't my idea. The idea came up that we should introduce, um, scholarships for secondary students. Uh, so that we've just had now three years of that, and that's been absolutely fantastic. Uh, we initially put up the idea that we would do one scholarship a year for a gay leader from secondary schools for their first year of tertiary studies. [00:28:30] We've ended up giving more than one each year for a multiplicity of reasons, partly because we just love them so much. But it's been absolutely fantastic. Um, not just getting the applications, but actually interviewing the shortlist. It's been one of the the best things I've done in the last few years has been interviewing these incredible seven forms, not just meeting them and seeing what drives them. But also hearing how how they live their lives at school, what their schools are like the support or lack of it from their teachers [00:29:00] and fellow students. It's been quite extraordinary. Quite amazing. And these are completely out students. Oh, yeah, I mean to be eligible for the scholarship. They've got to be out. They've got to, um, have made a difference to the gay community at their school. So they've got to be good gay role models. And that's been, yeah, quite some of the stories you get in terms of them helping other students or the way despite being in relatively, either neutral to homophobic [00:29:30] schools, they've risen to become head Boy or on the school board or whatever. Um, just through a shared drive force of personality and the willingness to be out and to face up to it all, it must be a wonderful chance to see, uh, a new generation of of kind of openly gay people that are out there doing positive work are incredible. I mean, when I was at school, there were no one I knew at school was gay, although there were, you know, rumours about people. Um, [00:30:00] and certainly it wouldn't have been acceptable. So while I know there's still a huge amount of homophobia difficulties out there when you see what the younger generation can do and are able to do if they have some strength is extraordinary and it's it's really inspiring. Um, people, Some people seem to think we've made no progress. But God, when you look at what some of these secondary students are doing today, it's fantastic. I guess doing those kind of interviews would also give [00:30:30] you an insight into some, uh, issues that are still around in the gay and lesbian communities in Auckland. There is obviously, there are still students who are victimised or who are unable to come out because it's still not comfortable enough. You still have to need a certain strength to be out at school. Um, perhaps for young. For students today, it's the most marginalised group [00:31:00] is probably still would be. Have to be the transgender, I'm guessing in part. But what was extraordinary in some of the interviews was the support that some colleges provided to transgender students. Um, there are I can't remember the schools, but I think it was a South Auckland school that had toilets available to, and we heard an extraordinary story out of West Auckland where a very large student who was being hassled by the 1st 15 basically just beat him up and, um [00:31:30] so that the school became very safe for transgender students and started attracting them. Uh, but it was That was more. While it was basically to hear the story, it was also evidence of the problem still being faced. Obviously, um, in in the other environment and certainly in that school, if he hadn't been particularly stroppy and strong it, that would have been a major problem for students. Mhm. If someone's listening to this recording and is just really unsure about, you know, they'd like to contribute in some way. They'd like to start [00:32:00] doing work in the community, but just don't know where to start. What? What kind of advice would you give them? How how do you How do you start making a difference? I guess basically, by joining the relevant, uh, organisation, there are very few people who do things solo. Um, unless they're a particularly strong individual with very strong ideas who just suddenly land on [00:32:30] us. I think most people that make a difference have become involved in a group because they're interested in the area and then start working through that organisation. Um, if somebody wants feels they want to make a difference, then the only thing that's really can either be holding them back is perhaps diffident about putting themselves forward. So if they [00:33:00] would like to make it, if they would like, they've joined an organisation and would like to make a difference. But, um, no one's listening to them, then it it can only be about pushing yourself more. But then I suspect that pushing yourself is something that's part of you or not, So I don't quite know what the answer to that is. I mean, basically, if you want to make a difference, get involved. I suppose it's also that idea of knowing that you have the power to make a difference. [00:33:30] You know, not not not just being a consumer of something, but actually, uh, an active part of participant. Having the power to make a difference is both being in the right place and having the will or sufficient will to power in the Nietzsche in terms. If I've got that correct, because I think if you're if you don't like something but don't have the [00:34:00] energy or drive to do anything about it, I don't know that that can be created. I think from my experience it's more that something innate in me was released by the things that I got involved in I was asked to do rather than it being created from the outside. Uh, it's hard, harder for me to imagine someone who wanted to make a difference who was joining an organisation [00:34:30] but then couldn't make a difference unless basically, their personality was such that they just weren't able to work with others or, uh, push themselves forward. And the creation of confidence, which I suppose is what that's about, is a whole separate issue.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089184
TITLE: Anne Speir profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Anne Speir
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; Anne Speir; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Christchurch; Gay Auckland Business Association (GABA); Hero (Auckland); Tauranga; activism; arts; feminism; gay liberation movement; homosexual law reform; lesbian; media; performance; profile; single sex schools; sport; television; theatre
DATE: 6 February 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Anne talks about growing up, working in the media, activism in the 1970s and 1980s, working on the Hero events in the 1990s and doing stand-up comedy.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Um, my name is Anne Speer. I grew up in Tauranga and from a nice middle class family in Tauranga. My parents are theatre people. They were heavily involved in amateur operatic, so I had quite a straight bringing up. But it always had different people around, like because operatic attracts quite different people. So that's where I first met Gay men, actually, because there weren't many lesbians in theatre. [00:00:30] Went to an all girls school heavily involved in surf life Saving was the first professional female lifeguard on Mount Mangan Beach in the seventies. Very much a sport, But, um, I thoroughly loved it. But I had this bizarre surf life saving during the day and theatre at night. There was a small professional theatre company in called Gateway Players that I did a lot of volunteering and hanging out with. I moved from [00:01:00] Tauranga to Christchurch, just sort of because I decided not to do any of the traditional nursing social work or teaching and was looking to just have a gap here, really? So moved to Christchurch, Um, discovered feminism. In many ways, I went to it was quite bizarre. There was a, um, a famous or a Wellington radio announcer, actually, or New Zealand radio announcer called Lee Hadley. [00:01:30] And I'd met Lee Lee's daughter, Lindy, through, um, Gateway players in Tauranga. And we have the same birthday, different ages. But we were born on the same day, so we had an instant bond. Anyway, I was, um I moved to Christchurch, was hanging out walking down Colombo Street on my birthday, and I ran into Lindy and Lindy when Happy birthday and what are you doing? And I said nothing, really. I don't know many people here and she said, Come back [00:02:00] to my place. We're not doing anything either. So just come back and have dinner with us and I went, OK, then. So we walk into this house and it's really quiet and dead, and Lindy goes, Oh, I don't know where everyone is. I'm just going to the loo. You go in there into the lounge, and so I opened the door into the lounge or she disappeared to the loo, and this room just erupted with Happy Birthday and then everyone looking completely shocked at not knowing who was standing there for the birthday. And then Lindy came out of the toilet and pops around and goes, Oh, S birthday [00:02:30] as well la la la And that's when, um, I first met Lindy and a whole lot of broadcasting type people in Christchurch and Lee, knowing my background hassled me to sort of apply. So I ended up applying to work at South Pacific Television in Christchurch. What year are we talking talking? 1977 76 was the year I applied 77 was when I started, So that took a little bit of, um, [00:03:00] Hara, not harassment, but, you know, bur bureaucracy running around. And I ended up going back to work on the beach at the Mount for that summer and had an accident on. I was riding on the back of one of the little motorbikes we had on the beach and we came off and I got severely burnt on my leg, which meant I had to finish on the beach a couple of weeks early. But it also meant and I By then I'd got a start date for television, so it meant I started on crutches. I was on crutches [00:03:30] on my first day on television in Gloucester Street as a tower building that was all up and all our studios are upstairs. So that was me. That was how I got into television through Lee Lee was at the time doing some TV work. That was, um, who's New Zealand's most famous woman? Kids writer. Um, Margaret Ma. That's right. She was. We were doing some TV work for Margaret Mahy, which was a really beautiful [00:04:00] show, and Lee was the principal character and the unfortunate thing in classic of broadcasting in those days. The tapes are too expensive, so it was all erased. And yet there's a show that we made in the seventies that would be distributed around the world. Now being Margaret May, I worked on the first ever episodes of a Week of It, which was early New Zealand comedy and the haunting We Will Go, which is another classic Children's programme. I worked on that, um and anyway, so II. I had [00:04:30] this career in television, and there was the um International Women's Convention in Christchurch, and I decided to go to it, and that was fascinating, actually, because I couldn't get time off. So I was having to do night shifts through doing, working, um, convention during the day and night shift at night in the media. And what happened in that year 77 women's convention was that the organisers [00:05:00] had asked the media to please send women only crew or reporters and one media organisation and I think it was radio. But I can't I can't remember exactly whose organisation it was. But one organisation sent a man along and I I I'll never understand why he didn't just run, actually, because here was this auditorium it was Christchurch Town Hall. So there was an auditorium with 1300 women in it. And this is early [00:05:30] days of feminism. So there was quite a buzz around with this one bloke sitting in the middle of it, and he was so out of place. And what happened was that the lesbians who I'm still unidentified at this or undefined at this place sexuality undefined. Um, Anyway, the stuffy lesbians all sat behind him and did what we used to do to the wizard in the square, which was just his goes, you know, get out of here. [00:06:00] And then one woman poked him to get him to leave and he created He created an issue around that of being an assault issue and effectively, all the other media organisations banded together and banned any reporting. It was International Women's Year in 1977 and banned any reporting of the convention or international women's year on the basis of the abuse that this one man, um experienced, which is really [00:06:30] classic of headspace of the time, basically that no one thought about the 1300 women and the abuse of having one man in amongst an environment they were trying to create, which was safe for them to talk about whatever they wanted. Um, and the tables were turned, But my lasting memories of that convention were Whenever I hear I am woman, I am strong. That was sung by 1300 women and the energy, and that is still palpable today. Like I can still conjure [00:07:00] that the minute I hear that song, it was quite phenomenal. Um, it was an awakening for me about, um to feminism and to stuff that I innately knew but hadn't been able to actually name or label in that sense, or that others out there had the same um, perceptions as me or or head space around it as me and went to a few of the social events and stuff. And I remember walking down Gloucester Street with a good friend of mine from [00:07:30] TV, like just feeling like we were so powerful. Nothing could happen to us, you know, like we were really strong. And then from there it was fashion of the time to have what we call consciousness raising groups or CR groups you'll hear them talked about. So I joined AC R Group because it was about talking about your experiences and stuff, and we had quite it was quite amazing. Like, um, it was early. It was it was consciousness raising because it was fascinating to hear other people's [00:08:00] stories and realise that the consciousness raising was about realising you weren't alone, that there were common stories for women all over the place. And then, um, me and my mate decided to go to the, um Adelaide Arts Festival. So we went on our first trip overseas trip to the Adelaide Festival of Arts, and they happened to be orientation week at the Uni at the same time. And we [00:08:30] came across all these lesbians at orientation week and got on well with them and ended up hanging out with them for the week and decided I decided I was a lesbian then, um so again, that's a real statement at the seventies stuff. It was a head space thing rather than a fall in love or suddenly have to bonk someone. It was like, No, this is where I am. I'm definitely a lesbian. So I came home with all the gears, like the, um which is funny because it's still fashionable today, really. But the cargo pants, the army pants [00:09:00] and the shirts and stuff and came out as I was in a roar and I was out as a dike and and, you know, trying to find that I felt I then met a woman in Christchurch who was my first lover. But the funny thing was that, um, my friend, um, who I went away with is quite a stunner. And so that was all right that I came home as a lesbian. You that was sort of accepted. This is at work and stuff. And then my mate came out about [00:09:30] eight months later, and it was so funny because we couldn't handle it, and they were saying things like, Um, we understand about Anne but she's just too gorgeous to be a lesbian. You know, There was all of that attitude as well. But the interesting time is that we were We were pretty radical. Then we had we did a lot of abortion protesting pro abortion protesting. Um, I secretly made a video tape [00:10:00] about a, um, a thing called a menstrual extraction, which is is a quasi abortion. But it's a way for women to get their their menstruation over and done with. You just suck it out yourself. And that was sort of to show women that they had other options. Um, there was also sisters Overseas service that was set up in Christchurch, that I had little bits to do on the periphery of that. And that's, um, was sending women to Australia to have abortions. [00:10:30] Some pretty horror stories came out of that, but there was a steady trade of women flying to Sydney being met, having an abortion and flying home, which I must be traumatic for any woman. Interesting as well that it was the lesbians at the forefront of such a heterosexual issue, basically, um, then and also working in television, which was quite collegial. Everyone covered for each other, and you could swap shifts quite easily or do little favours. [00:11:00] It was all about like being collegial, and this was a space that we could create and all of that sort of stuff, which is fascinating in today's day because nobody's collegial. Now it's all about your own self. You dob someone in if you want to, rather than cover for them and work it out between you. But that's irrelevant, really. But so anyway, after a while I wanted to move to Auckland, so I managed to get a transfer up here to Auckland and hung out with the [00:11:30] So we were lesbian separatists. When I came out, I came out as a lesbian feminist separatist, and we could have hours of debate around the kitchen table as to whether you were a lesbian, feminist separatist or a feminist lesbian separatist. And the difference was immense. So, you know, there was still because us feminists didn't really take into account at the time, the whole history that there was a secret culture of lesbian history anyway. But that was the really secret culture. It was even [00:12:00] more secret than the men, Really, In the sense that men had a place out there on the street in the world, we live in a patriarchal world. They immediately had a place in it, of which women didn't. So the dykes were either hardcore bar dikes, you know, the butcher and the fem and that sort of stuff all just quite hidden, Like looking back on it. I had at least one lesbian teacher, but there was no way until I had a consciousness about lesbianism [00:12:30] that I would have ever picked that it was just natural that it was classic. The real classic excuse in those days was she lost her fiance in the war, You know, for any women in their forties or whatever. Um and that was the excuse that we'd all heard about my teacher. And that was, as I, um we just accepted it. So lesbianism was very, um, invisible. And so we were determined to make it visible. There was a couple of moments of crossover in both my visibility [00:13:00] and my career that were interesting. Um, it always meant I had a glass ceiling. There was never any chance of me advancing anywhere because I was too scary in the sense that I was a lesbian. And even though it was never actually said, every promotion I went for was turned down. Everything I went for was turned down, but the real telling one, was it two telling things about it? Sum up women at the time. Actually, Miss World was on here or Miss [00:13:30] New Zealand, Miss New Zealand. It would have been. And I knew everyone asked me what we should do because we were Everyone protested about the, um I mean emancipation. But the attitude or imagery of women in Miss World was definitely not one that we were after. And everyone asked me what they should do for protests. And I just laughed and said The only thing you could really do would be get a huge magnet and run it down the side of the outside brook of the OB. Now that would fuck everything [00:14:00] right. But knowing that that wasn't quite feasible. But at least I had given someone some experience and I I made sure I wasn't roster on it or they wouldn't anyway, because they knew how I felt. I wasn't roster on it. And on that particular night I was out drinking with people from work like it was a conscious decision to be visible that I was nowhere near the. I knew some protest had been planned, but I was also ethical and that I asked everyone not to tell me a word about it. I didn't want to know. I didn't need to know. [00:14:30] And so I. I was happy that there was something happening. But anyway, there was a major protest. The women got on stage, got into the room and got on stage and stopped the broadcast, which was a live broadcast. It was an immediate throw to commercial break and stuff. Well, about a couple of months later, I really I found out that on my record at work, I was the one blamed for that protest. I was like it it, like on record, which disgusted [00:15:00] me actually, um that I was the linchpin of of allowing these women to get into the building and protest, which I can't see how they could have ever justified knowing that I was in a bar, a completely different place. But I did find out which was quite lovely. Those are the days that broadcasting used to have really nice cafeterias, really good cafeterias because they believed in feeding us because we work such bizarre shifts. And the the the, um, cafeteria women were real diehard, classic kiwi [00:15:30] women and always worrying that you hadn't eaten enough or, you know that you've been working a lot of night shifts and you were looking a little bit pale or they'd always have something like that to say anyone. It was one of the little old grey haired ladies that had let the protesters in. And consciously, that was her conscious, um, protest. But the the it just shows you the measure of the management there that I was the one pinned for it. And the other thing that was happening around the time was that we weren't going through yet another restructure, whether we were called [00:16:00] programme operators or technical operators or, uh, because I started I was working in television and as a a video tape, um, editor, operator, editor in the engine room, Basically, and, um, I left to go and do my OE when this review was still in process and I I left on 12 months leave without pay, like I was planning on coming back in 12 months, which I never did. But I left to go to London. And [00:16:30] after about six months in London, I got a letter from Television New Zealand to tell me that I had been underpaid by three grades, which anyone in broadcasting will realise is actually quite a lot of money. So I was maintained. I was kept on the lowest grade, feasible because of being a dike. Predominantly, I can say that now that would be the reason and yet the work. And when they did this review, the only thing they could, um, look [00:17:00] back on was the rosters I had done leading up to leaving. And the work I did on my rostered shifts should have been I should have been paid another 3. 5 $1000 more, and we're talking in the early days. I mean, I started in television in 77. My my starting salary was 4. 5 $1000 a year, which is just you just wouldn't conceive now. So by 1979 when I left, I was still only on about $8000 and should have been on 12. [00:17:30] So that shows the value of women or women who stepped above the pulpit, I suppose, or stepped. You know, we're prepared to stand up and be counted. Um, I have some great friends from that time. I have a couple of regrets of that time, too. We did a major protest at ANZAC Day one year, and it was heavy and it was dawn service and we were calling, um, servicemen, rapists and assholes and oppressors and which was sort [00:18:00] of the rhetoric of the time. And, um but that was quite funny. It was just before I mean, was it before I went anyway, we were chased by the cops going home. That was quite entertaining. We sort of had to do our many car chase to get away from the cops. It wasn't until years later, to be honest, that I thought about the horror of war and what those men had really been through and felt quite guilty or horrible that we've done that to those men. And but in the heat of our own [00:18:30] battle, we hadn't seen the bigger picture. And it's only in retrospect when you when your battle is possibly a little more, um, embers than full on flames that you can look back and think that sort of stuff. So just going back to that 1977 conference Did you have a lot of feminist energy prior to that? We did. We did, Or was it just like a complete watershed for you? It was like a moment where you thought Wow, it really was like [00:19:00] a watershed. It was the energy Every woman knows when they've been stopped or and you don't realise. But, you know, say, like, take surf lifesaving. For example, I was the strongest swimmer. I was the club captain for women's club. Captain. I did a whole heap of things like just that was just who I was. I was a big, strong woman, but we couldn't do craft. We couldn't do the surf ski or the surf boats or the or the, um, canoes [00:19:30] or the paddle boards because we were women. You know, women didn't do that sort of stuff. We could have got into trouble in the surf. And I'm going Well, what's the difference between swimming out into a 12 ft storm surf and rescuing someone and, you know, all that sort of stuff. So you had these questions that you you had anyway. But I was quite fortunate in the sense that I went to a girls school, um, Girls College and Jo Dryden, headmistress at the time, was a pioneering feminist. In the sixth form, I was in sixth. She had sent [00:20:00] women to the school girls, you know, like students to the very, very first Auckland, the very first women's convention, which I think was in 75 or 74 here in Auckland and then arranged a mini convention of speakers that were at that convention to come and speak to us in school. So in some ways, the consciousness raising had really subtly begun at that point. And the interesting thing was, I, um I at school, I used to hang out at the theatre. [00:20:30] I used to wag a lot basically and go down to the theatre and we go to the beach and chill out and stuff. And the headmistress sort of knew this of me. So when she arranged this feminist day this women's convention day at school, she a week a week earlier called me into her office and blatantly said to me, and I know you probably plan to wag this so to stop you that you're introducing three of the speakers, you know, like so she had my measure, too, probably. And in that sense, it was a great day. I really I. I mean, you know, we met, [00:21:00] um, Marilyn. We was a speaker in those days because she was a very I'm not sure if she would, she must have been in parliament then just in parliament. So there was quite an interesting mix of women. So in that sense, I think what What the feminist revolution in in per se did was actually just give context for women for stuff they innately felt. But in this at that 77 convention, you know, I went to a radical lesbian radical [00:21:30] lesbian workshop and was, and this is even before I thought I was, But how could I thought I wasn't When I ran away from any man that tried to date me or, you know, like I had, I just didn't I just I didn't conceive that I wasn't heterosexual. I just didn't like the concept of having to go out with a bloke. Um, so it so it gave me a lot of awareness. Like I mean, in those days, the word lesbian would have been hardly used. Or if it was, it would have been incredibly derogatory. [00:22:00] There was no positive imagery of anything like that in, um in the media or, you know, out there and and films and stuff and the imagery of camp men were allowed. But of course, feminist lesbians were certainly not camp men and not with the same value or aesthetic, so that didn't really fit. But at the same time, um, at least I'd known if you gave me and I kind of [00:22:30] said that I didn't have my involvement in theatre, but see, lesbians weren't really allowed in theatre. There's a few dikes from that era who still are pretty closet about the fact that they've been lesbians all that time. And they're quite prominent now here in New Zealand. And that always saddened me that they've had to stay in the closet. But it pretty much is because they didn't want to be typecast or in that sort of realm. So that 77 convention just opened my eyes. Really, absolutely opened my [00:23:00] eyes and gave me a kick up the arse and then did your travel to London in the early eighties. Did that, I guess, broaden you even further. It was quite interesting. You know, we believe that we are at the end of the earth, and everyone else is far ahead of us and stuff. And so I went to London and there was a, um a squat in Hackney that, um was there for Australasian women and Tian women because the English women were sick of kiwi and Aussie women arriving on their doorsteps going, you know, so and so who knows [00:23:30] So and so who told me I could come here and stay So we originally stayed in the squat in Hackney lots of different women. And, um, we're doing the big OE thing. I went to a convention there, actually, a year into being in London and, uh, English politics was more about socialism in class. But I went to a convention there, and I remember sitting there at that time going, Oh, my God. New Zealand's way ahead of here, like we were way ahead, especially in our concept [00:24:00] of bicultural and or multiculturalism. uh, racism. Classism may be not so much, but yes, at the same time equal. But the fascinating thing the thing I'll never forget about that convention was this is just after Blair Peach had been killed. It's been a year or two after Blair Peach had been killed or the Special Patrol group was still in force. That's who have now, in 2011, 2010. They were blamed for killing. [00:24:30] Be Peach was always denied. Anyway, the Special Patrol Group were there Anyway. We had a AD that night to the conference in Notting Hill, and it was sort of in a hall in a in a venue that was surrounded by one way street. So you had to all everyone arrived on the same street and left by the same street, if you know what I mean. And there were a whole lot of all night. There were these skinheads and hippies trying to [00:25:00] get in to smash the lesbians and smash the women and stuff. So everyone was told to leave in groups don't leave alone. It wasn't safe to leave in groups and all that sort of stuff, and I happened to be, um, and one of the early groups to leave. Um, and we were walking down the road and we came across it. So there's eight of us eight or nine of us walk down the road. And we came across a bloke, um, threatening his beating up his wife, actually. And so we were across [00:25:30] the road and yelling at her to be strong. And, you know, she didn't have to take this abuse and Ra Ra Ra Ra ra, and we crossed the road to see if we could help her. And honestly, seconds later, there was just and all of this time, these women starting to leave this road, this venue. And so we went across to help her, and we were just sort of There was nothing violent about it, but we were supporting her and standing between her, her husband and her, [00:26:00] who were still wanting to beat her up. And next thing, all these, um, vans of cops just suddenly arrive out of nowhere. They must have been waiting just around the corner like arrive out of nowhere and just get out of their vans and start indiscriminately bashing women. So you heard There was, um, something like 2. 5 1000 women at this at this event. And you had 2. 5 1000 women because also London finishes at 12 o'clock. Like people forget that here that at 12 o'clock it stops. So everyone was leaving the venue pouring [00:26:30] into the situation of this complete bash up. It was horrendous, and I only didn't get bashed over the head. I'll never forget that. This guy standing in front of me with a ba in his hand and I'm screaming at him. What the fuck do you think you're doing? What is this about? We've done nothing. And I looked him right in the eye because I was his height and he turned around and bashed someone else like, you know, And we about nine women were arrested. Some of my group I wasn't, but nine were arrested, so we all and nobody had any money. And of course, the [00:27:00] tubes were shut and all that sort of stuff. So we went down to Notting Hill police Station to support them or see what we could do to help them. I asked to go to the toilet at and asked where a toilet was that I could use at the police station. And the cop put a rubbish bin on the counter and said, Scum like you, that's all you require. That was his idea of a toilet we negotiated. And we were told by the senior sergeant that [00:27:30] we should all leave and go home. This is like 34 in the morning. Um, because the women weren't being released until seven o'clock when they'd faced court the next day and no one would be released. So we did discuss this and we were given the assurance that that was the case. So we did leave. So those of us with cars, anyone with access to a car, we did leave. And then we discovered. And this is pre cell phones as well, You can remember. And what we discovered was that the cops released the women that had arrested half [00:28:00] an hour after we left, which gave them absolutely no resource. They had no money. No tubes were open at that time of day, nowhere to get home. It was quite so That was the attitude towards lesbians and feminists in that day. And but And that was my my my lasting imagery of the Special Patrol Group. So I clapped and cheered when they were finally finger pointed that they killed Blue Peach because they were nasty and vicious. So that was London. But that was a that [00:28:30] was my only convention I ever went to in London. Um, and as I say, I also decided from the rhetoric of it and how the bisexual women tried to capture it and Socialists that New Zealand was actually way ahead politically. In that sense, um, we hang out, hung out in ghetto. Still, there was still a little ghetto of lesbians that you all hang out together. Then I came home and the scene had changed a [00:29:00] little bit. Here. I missed the tour. I missed the Springbok tour. So the community here had gone from. We'd done happy, protesting like for the abortion protest. One of our protests was to rope off Victoria Street, Queen Street intersection at 5 to 5 on a II. I can't remember if it was a Friday night or what it was, but it was, you know, rush hour, Auckland rush hour. We roped off the intersection and sat down and refused to budge [00:29:30] and, you know, here's the cop going. Oh, no, we won't arrest them. We'll just wait till they get tired of it because we don't want to give them publicity. And it was People were pissed off with us and everything, but you didn't get publicity. Or but you didn't get bashed either. It was sort of like a them and us situation. I we'll wait and see. I mean, one of my other really classic moments, and I'll never forget either. Is, um, some women who shall forever be remain nameless, and I wasn't [00:30:00] one of them, but I do know who a couple who did it managed to sneak into the bus station, the bus where the buses are all held and spray pro abortion, um, banners ride all over the buses right before they rolled out for the 6 a. m. like rush hour. So there was no way they could get rid of the banners that were across the buses. The girl, one of the girls who did it, told me it was one of the scariest moments of her life. But, you know, we did sort of protests like that, and [00:30:30] and and but then, as I say, I missed the Springbok tour. I did see some of it through the satellite because I was working for ABC news, actually in London, but because we'd had the Brixton riots that had an of no, um, rioting to go to wear. So very little of that footage actually got to wear in England because of that edict. But I managed to see and it was quite freaky sitting there taking the satellite feed, seeing your mates on the front line. So there were the lesbians on the front line again [00:31:00] with the, um with Maori, like out there to fight and charge and stuff. So when I came back, the scene was a little bit different in the in the sense that New Zealand had been bloodied as well by what they witnessed or experienced and as the same whatever. For me, it's anecdotal. And then we moved into things like the the homosexual law reform. Well, the interesting thing for that is, um, first of all, the HIV pandemic sort of started. [00:31:30] And as much as I wasn't involved in the early days, I did know women who were, um the women, pretty much rallied to teach the boys how to, um, effectively communicate or disseminate information because as protesters, we had the classic telephone tree situation so you could get your information out to a lot of women very quickly. You know, you rang. You had 15 on your list. They had each had 15 on their list. As exponential as it goes out. [00:32:00] Um, then homosexual law reform. Yeah, it was interesting for the dikes, because effectively, we had nothing to fight for because we weren't in the legislation. So, um, I do remember. And again, this is the difference of gay men and lesbians are really different. No matter what way we look at it, they are really different. And so I only have another memory of that time. Is the empire just down the road from where we are actually, um was sort of the gay [00:32:30] bar of Auckland, and we there was called to have the first ever Homo march gay march in Auckland. So there was a meeting called for the gays and the lesbians at the Empire, and I remember being in the meeting and everyone it was all sort of, you know, Yeah, we can do this and do that. And it was. And at the very end, someone sort of actually think it was. Britt Shepherd stood up and said, Um, now, for those who want masks, will it be available for the men? [00:33:00] And of course, the lesbians go, What are you wearing masks for? You've got to stand up and be counted. Da da da completely, really not conceiving that that identification as being gay for men could mean loss of job and jail, Really? Or, you know, like prosecution in that sense because, as I say, we went in the legislation in the statute. So we had this huge walkout and this big split that we wouldn't march if it until the men were honest about it. And that political split between [00:33:30] the lesbians and the men lasted a long time. There was a lot of distrust, and then the bars at the time, like there was the Alex at the time that used to take a lot of lesbians, but the clubs like staircase and stuff. If the club was full, the dikes were the first to be refused entry. But at the same time, you could pretty much guarantee that if the dikes came, there'd be a fight. So it's one of those dilemmas. But yeah, we were discriminated in, our within our own community. In a sense, we never had the money or the political push. [00:34:00] And then came law reform, of which the men knew. They had to use some the women's energy to get that through. And that, I suppose, united us to a degree. But, um, it's funny how hindsight is a fabulous thing, isn't it? Because it was only later on that I realised the I knew I always knew the importance of law reform, but it was more, you know, that you as lesbian, she didn't really have to think about the, um, the [00:34:30] follow on of being busted, you know of. But at the same time, gay men had the life of Riley here. At that time, they had their secret clubs, their secret parties. They had some of the men I know now still meant that they wish those days were were back. There was more cohesion and more sense of community, more sense of intergenerational relation, relating because someone had to teach you what the codes were to get into the clubs or whatever. So you did talk to your other generations more, whereas now [00:35:00] the young just don't seem to be interested. And you can go anywhere they please thank you very much. You know, which is fine? Was the hero parade which started in the early nineties. Was that a way of trying to bring more of a community sense back? Well, no hero was started initially as a dance party to give HIV positive people a sense of empowerment. A sense of that, you know, like a feel good thing for them. So he has always been steeped in that being, um, born from the AIDS, [00:35:30] the AIDS Foundation. Actually, um, it grew into the, um a great celebration that it was that it was, but it's it's initial sense was a small celebration of, um, being of of positive, positive people being positive, I suppose, in that sense. And also it was early days for dance parties. Dance parties were happening offshore, and so we were the first to really experience. And it's difficult to explain to people [00:36:00] who've never been to one, But dance parties can be there. They're quite fabulous. Really. They can be hell or I was trying to think of a nice way to say in age, but they were really quite amazing. You open your eyes and they were wonderful experiences of people just being free to be who they wanted to be. Um, and that, I think, has had a lot of validity. Um, so on a personal level, by the end, by the eighties, by hero time, um, I I made [00:36:30] a little anti nuclear film with, um, a couple of women called women on the move umbrella films. Me and Lisa have made it, actually. So we made this film called Women on the Move and which was about the big anti nuke march. Because, of course, that was the next thing that we were protesting for was, um, becoming anti nuke and stopping the warships coming in. Um, and then he was born sort of beyond that again. Uh, [00:37:00] and I was by that stage I'd moved into making socks and shoelaces on a personal level for work. She gave me a little bit of freedom. Straight laced was the name of our shoe lace company. And I did a, um a postgraduate, uh, diploma at Victoria University. around that time I'll never forget. I used to stand up in these seminars and go, Hi, my name's Anne Spear and I'm the co owner of a firm called [00:37:30] Straight Laced and everyone would always laugh, Sort of pissed me off in the end, but I'm going. Even when I tried not to look like a lesbian, I still look like a lesbian. We'll never get over that. But I suppose partly that's being 6 ft tall. I mean, you know, like, um, now there's more six footers of us, but and then I was sort of pretty much the tallest around for a while. Um, so hero was a funny thing. Hero was very closed. It was dance, the dance parties. It was fun to go to. And [00:38:00] I I was trying to think when I came down here, what was my motivation for standing for the hero committee? But I just think I've always been community. Oh, I know what it was. I do know what it was I went through, Um, some a personal issue when my close clique of dikes that I'd always hung out with pushed put me on the shoulder, gave me the cold shoulder for a while, actually, um, rightly or wrongly, that happened. And that was [00:38:30] the first time I personally had to look elsewhere for my support network. And there was a colleague, a gay colleague who I knew through television. Um, who we ended up hanging out a bit together. So I started to mix a bit more with in a mixed environment. Not so much always just lesbians, but in a mixed environment. And through that came when there were calls for, um, nominations for the hero committee. I decided to stand because I was, [00:39:00] you know, my head was open to working with men and again, and I was one of two women on the committee when I first joined. And it was a very interesting, committed, passionate bunch, but very closed. And then slowly over the years, and then I ended up being the chair. As hero went through its different incarnations. It became a huge parade. Yeah, Yeah, it was. And it's interesting. Now when people are calling for bring back the hero parade, I just say to them, Yeah, and why should why should [00:39:30] the queer community put up the in those days? It was like $280,000 It takes to put it on when no one pays you when you're there And you didn't get much gold coin like I just think it's the, you know, hero in perspective. There was nothing like the feeling of Pon Road on that day on that night. You really, really did feel that you owned the street and shown in many different ways like, um, [00:40:00] one of the one of the parades. I remember that it was the same year as the same day as the Port Seafood Festival. So a lot of drunk people had come over to the parade and it was towards the end of the parade. And this guy was being a real asshole to some women and this cop, I'm trying to remember exactly how it happened. But anyway, the woman had sort of grabbed this guy and called the police, and this woman cop came over and they went blah, blah, blah. [00:40:30] I can't remember exactly. And he goes, Oh, just fucking assholes. And she said, I'm going to turn around If you want to punch him, go right ahead. You know, like that was the and it sounds really violent and terrible when I say it like that. But the reality was it was one of those moments when you just saw sense. You know, he was just a drunk asshole being an asshole. And the cop going This is your night. This is your street your night. You know, you can you can deal with it. Um, and it was fascinating. After the demise of hero, the different conversation I can't forget. You know, [00:41:00] I've talked to older women who straight women brought up their families, loved the hero parade, went to everyone because they just loved people seeing people celebrate, celebrating who they were and how they wanted to be. Um, so, yeah, it was a big night in Ponsonby, but, you know, did poncey road pay for it? No. The liquor king on poncey Road used to do more turnover on hero night than it did for the whole of the Christmas New Year break. And I think they used to give us $100 towards putting the parade [00:41:30] on. So and with the demise of dance parties, as much as we had some really good ones, and I'll never forget there's about four that I'll always remember of the hero parties. One is one of the really early ones at the wharf down at the waterfront. It was amazing. It was beautiful. But we lost the ability to use the waterfront because of the Catholic head of the harbour board at the time. And what hero used to do was always put its own cleaners through the party before the official cleaners arrived because we knew what debris [00:42:00] or could be there. And this particular year, the last year of the one down at the waterfront, the official cleaners arrived before our cleaners did through some I don't know why. And so you know, the fact that needles were found and condoms by the Galore were found and stuff was reported back to the harbour board, and we were never allowed to use that venue again. Um, and it moved out to, um Green Lane, which didn't really work entirely. It did for a while, [00:42:30] but the dance parties were on the way, and everyone was doing dance parties by the end, you know? But we had the one in the town hall. It was fabulous. A seeing the town Hall pink. Seeing the queer flag, the flag flying above the town hall, some Christians got in and hit the fire alarm button about half an hour into the beginning of the party. And so heaps of fire engines because it's the town hall. So heaps of fire engines had to arrive for all the boys. It was about half [00:43:00] hour into the party, so they were all just beginning to peak and all standing outside, loving the fact that there was 20 or 30 uniformed, butch, gorgeous looking firemen running around for them. And the Fire Department sent us the hero committee a letter afterwards saying it was the most orderly mass evacuation of anything they'd ever done. And I was tempted to write back and said, Oh, yes, well, you know when you've got a sort of, um, 1000 people peaking, 1000 men peeking in and uniforms they are just [00:43:30] They were they were in heaven. So that was quite so. The old Christians didn't stop the party. It just gave the boys something extra to laugh about at the time, and that party went off. It was gorgeous. It was a it was amazing. We had Georgina Baer coming through the from the through the floor of the town hall is rest in peace. Led his, um, his Brazilian dancers and stuff in a huge number. Buck came down from the roof of the town hall where she was lowered from the roof. We had acts [00:44:00] of theatre going throughout the venue. It was just one of those really amazing amazing parties. And it's a And the nice thing is, that was the last hero party. Not quite, actually, but it was the last of the old style of hero. The nice thing is to think about it in those terms, the sad thing is, what happened after that? But, you know, Yeah. Um, there there was quite a lot of, uh, negative, uh, energy and publicity around [00:44:30] the way that a hero kind of eventually kind of wound down. How did you cope with with that kind of negativity in the previous 18 months? I'd always promised myself I wanted to be a comedian by the time I was 40. And so I'd done a comedy course in at the age of 39 and done my and had done a complete a stand up um I had been in a show and done stand up before I was 40 which was one of my goals of life. And I created this character [00:45:00] called Dolores Clitoris. And she was ahead of her time in some ways and that she was, uh, dyke dressed a dark, a lesbian comedian dressed as a drag queen. So to get it out there. So I wore miniskirts and mid drifts and, you know, like that sort of apparel. And I talked about the difference between men and women, basically lesbians and gays, and also tried to prove that lesbians can have a sense of humour. We do have a sense of humour, [00:45:30] but, you know, show that lesbians have a sense of humour. So I was out. I was starting to do a more and more performance of that. And during the hero 2001, I did a dating show with Buckwheat that people still laugh about. Steve Grey still hassles me about that, and, um, and as the duel we also instigated in the hero gala we done two before I think or two before, it was the third gala. So it was interesting because I was I performed as Dolores. But I also had the, [00:46:00] um, opportunity to introduce Helen Clark as our new PM, actually, at the And we were at the, um, in the Civic in Auckland, which is a beautiful, huge theatre. There was about 1800. It was it was a large number of people, I think Civic 22. And I think we had 14 or 1600 people in the audience for the show that went on and on and on and on. It was about five hours long with the end. But what Our moments I I remember is standing on stage [00:46:30] and introducing Helen Clark and feeling. And there was an immediate standing ovation. But feeling this wave of energy wall, I would almost say this wall of energy that started at the back and just waved forward just pushed forward until it hit you on stage. It was an amazing experience, like, yeah, we were really happy to be rid of Shipley. And then, but, um yeah, so that was sort of moment. So So what happened when all the negativity when [00:47:00] it all the shit hit the fan and I was the public face of that stuff. Um, it was fascinating. The lesbians ran away and some would come to me and say, Oh, and I heard this stuff about you, and I know it's not true. And I know it's not like you. And I would say, Well, did you defend me and they go, Oh, well, you know, I thought I'd tell you Gay men were far more upfront. They just come and challenge me and talk with me about it and either walk away [00:47:30] knowing a little bit more or choosing to stay ignorant or whatever position they held. But they would be upfront about it. I was absolutely assassinated by the media by, um Express, and what I did was I just stoically kept performing as Dolores for a good year and a half after it to try and put a different face on it. I didn't perform about Hero, but I just stayed out there. I have to say [00:48:00] that the drag queens were amazing. They completely, um, shielded me or put me under their umbrella in the sense that they knew that some of them did actually know the truth and so wished to support me in that sense, So that's when I became a real drag A and the interest. The funny thing about that is that drag goes right back to my upbringing. In that it's it's like the same as amateur operatic. You work towards you conceive and work towards and perform shows. [00:48:30] And that's where I'm very much at home and feel very at home around. So I really love doing that and, you know, recording some of it. And then I dropped Dolores for a while, like I just sort of after I had the heat sort of dissipated a bit, and I could just take a step back. It still hurts personally. Every time I read some of the misinformation about hero like Hero was badly managed. And this that and the next thing you know, we actually put on the best hero [00:49:00] that was ever had. We had a face, amazing festival, a great parade and a great party that night, and it really saddens me that that achievement is never acknowledged. It's always talked about in the negative. Um, and I fought for years like, because what we did was we handed hero on to a, um, a community, you know, society. We created a society so that it was more open and transparent. But all of the people on that committee were harassed or hounded in some way [00:49:30] by people with their own personal vendettas and stuff. You know, there were public meetings held ostensibly on the on the future of hero by some lesbians here. And I got so many phone calls I chose not to go it prudently. You know, like I just it wasn't a place for me to be like. I was still being blamed for everything. And I've heard many an anecdote and many an account that it was a positive meeting until people were prepared [00:50:00] to move on. But then they were going, you know how to get rid of. They turned it personal, which made people get up and leave and not like it. The society really should have been, should have been allowed to flourish, and it probably would be here but again, personal vendetta. They just kept hacking and hacking because I still had something to do with the society and and and you can't divorce yourself of all of that institutional knowledge. Basically, why hand it over to a society was none of that prior [00:50:30] knowledge. And, um, but some people just wanted me lynched. So I'm not saying it was my fault that the society collapsed because it wasn't at all. But nobody liked what became the stench of being involved with hero, Really? It it it carried you around. It followed you around one of the, um, really positive things that were happening around that time or just after that time in 2004 was the [00:51:00] television production that you worked on. Am I right in saying that was like the world's first indigenous Takata Gay lesbian transgender programme? Yeah, it was. It was the world's first to be played on an indigenous channel. So, you know, Queer Nation, of course, had come a long way before. Um, but it was the creation of Maori television and is from front of the box productions. Um, [00:51:30] he'd hunted me to produce for her the show. Um, and it was great, actually, um, it was a lot of a lot of work. We needed 5 to 75 to 9 sometimes, um, people on the show for each half hour each week. And so the real work was getting the talent or the people on the show [00:52:00] without them having any reference as to what? How they were going to be represented or what the show was. Sort of like, Well, we managed that. We, um Yeah, we had a, um It was a great time. A hard, hard work, hard work. But I'm still called Auntie by a lot of the Maori out there now, when I walk into a room, there's Auntie Anne. Auntie Annie, Um, and I'm proud of some of the stuff we did. One of the things I'm really proud of was, um, we, uh, started coming out stories where we just had someone sitting on a chair [00:52:30] telling their stories. Um, you know, we had some really, really positive. And it was nice to see the community rally again. It's hard. Um, ultimately, it's hard as a to be driving that sort of thing. Um, and in the end, you know, like you, you it was apart from my I mean, you know? Yeah, it was time for me to go when I finally went, nearly killed me, actually took me a long, long time to get some energy back after [00:53:00] that. But I'm really proud of the shows that we put to air and the fact we made it to air and the fact that we made it for so little. We had fuck all money to a very small budget to work with. And isn't it amazing that in the space of, what, 2025 years, when you think of when you started in broadcasting to to actually being having a queer show on mainstream television? Well, yeah, Although Queer Nation broke that, I mean, and that was interesting because that really came [00:53:30] out of when we tried Horizon Television when we tried to have local television here and they put on the local show, Um, and television picked it up. But it was also interesting the way television was able to squash it. Because Queer Nation, the community itself is starting getting a bit bored with it or whatever. I don't know. So the TV NZ pulled, called a, um, a focus group of all sorts of different people from the community, and used the feedback from that group which used it against us. The [00:54:00] the feedback from the group was, we want something a little bit less tired or more vibrant or more challenging, but we still want queer broadcasting. But broadcasting turned around to poor Johnny and went well. They think it's tired and da da da So I'm sorry. That's dead. It's gone now and they've never They gave it to a straight company and we had Kiwi fruits, which he thought I know the guy who produced it. He thought that was the funniest thing he'd ever come up with. And it was a It was a tedious show you the [00:54:30] thing I learned. And that's why it as well you have to come from a show like that and boys yawn when I say this. But the reality is you must have a level of politic around it for that sort of thing to work. If you don't have the politic, it just meanders nowhere. It just goes nowhere. And so, yes, we had politic around. I mean, I was delighted at putting together um, that we interviewed radical lesbian from the East Coast, who [00:55:00] had a whole lot of photos of her standing with a and that was when Donna Ari was being super right wing and act. And so I was delighted to put to air pictures of Donna A as a lesbian protester just to remind her act party people that we should come or remind us lesbians of how far she sold us out. You know, like on that level? Um, no, I had It was it was great. It was really, um, up to Maori television for for doing it. Really. But the interesting thing is, I don't think [00:55:30] it it's required right now. I don't know, I. I think we we were repeating too many stories. And still, even within doing that, there were stories that you couldn't touch because as much as you knew the story, you couldn't actually get the person involved or them to come on and talk about it. So there still is huge levels of homophobia out there, Um, and just hidden just slightly more hidden than what than the blat that we were used to. And when [00:56:00] you say homophobia, is that like an internal homophobia or well, I think it's it's both. I mean, I think that there's a lot of like gay community, hasn't really, um, investigated its own internalised homophobia. But whenever I see gays behaving badly, that's what I put it down to, you know, like, but there is still just blatant homophobia out there, and unfortunately, you can start to see it in K Road right now when the hordes of people coming in from the south and the West and just have no respect [00:56:30] and off their tits on some form of alcohol or some other stimulant. And there's a lot of violence happening up on K Road at the moment. And, you know, like I remember we did our first reclaim the night marches to sort of against violence at night where women could finally walk the streets safely at night. And it's almost to to to really you can't do that, but it's an aside, but it just maybe I said to someone recently, or maybe we have to have another reclaim the night march, [00:57:00] But for gays to reclaim our very own street, you know, Kro has been synonymous with queer, um, culture for years for years because we are the We are the Red light district. We are the secret nightlife. Yeah, so this series is all about kind of making a difference in both kind of personal ways and and also in a kind of broader community, uh, base How? [00:57:30] I mean, would you have any advice of if somebody said, Oh, how do I make a difference? You know, you can only make a difference. The only person you can really make a difference to is yourself and that saying the old feminist saying is still so true. The personal is political and you are So you shop, you know, like you. You take your dollar. If you don't like that shop, you take your dollar somewhere else. Or and And that whole, the whole is one of pit hate of mine is how the media screwed the term [00:58:00] politically correct or PC. And that comes right back to that 1977 women's convention. And and, um, I know 75 women's convention in Christchurch, 77 77 Christchurch not look like that. Anyway, my pet hate is the corruption of the term politically correct. The concept of political correctness that I grew up with as a feminist was that if something challenged you, you looked inward at yourself to work out why it challenges you. And whether [00:58:30] that challenge the feeling you have is valid and you should fight for that feeling or whether it's right to have been challenged. And maybe it's time to shift or to move. Not necessarily. Always paradigm shifts, but, you know, move the way you think. So it's always been a concept of the personal. So I now read in the media and the way people use it as an external box that if you step outside the box, you're stupid or stuff and it riles me. So in terms of making a difference, it is about that being [00:59:00] be the personal is political. Stand up for what you believe in, do what you can for what you believe in. I mean, like, coffee probably wouldn't find to think of himself as a political person, but he did a huge amount for Rainbow Youth just by actually standing up doing something that he probably didn't realise the impact of at the time. But I've just been watching celebrity apprentice Cindy Lauper, giving her money to a really radical Stonewall gay group because her sister came out and she [00:59:30] realised, what a hard time. So it just be who you are. Be honest, true to yourself and and that's how you will make a difference. If you see some homophobia, stand up to it. If you see racism, stand up to it like work it, you know, like don't just melt into the crowd and pretend that everything's OK.

IRN: 151
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/katija_vlatkovich_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003889
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089183
TITLE: Katija Vlatkovich profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Katija Vlatkovich
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2000s; Gay Auckland Business Association (GABA); Katija Vlatkovich; Mika Haka Foundation; Mika X; Proud Mary; Rainbow Youth; activism; coming out; family; lesbian; music; performance; youth
DATE: 5 February 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Katija talks about growing up, working with Rainbow Youth and organizing Proud Mary.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: I'm Katia, and I am raised in Auckland. Um, I come from a Croatian background, so I have a very, very big, loud, amazing family. Um, came out, I guess, in the process. So I kind of when I was at high school, I was dating a girl, which was pretty cool. She was an amazing woman. Still friends with her now, But, um, I guess it wasn't till a few couple of years ago, Really. I kind of really admitted to myself that I was definitely a lesbian. [00:00:30] So it took me. It took me a few years of kind of tossing and turning and coming from a Catholic background as well and all that kind of, um, installation of those kind of morals and mindsets that kind of took me a while to break down those walls and kind of realise that you can have a family with, um, a partner of the same sex and yeah, so it was Yeah, it was pretty cool when I kind of came to that realisation and yeah, I made some really good friends and support network around me. That kind of allowed me to do that. So [00:01:00] how was homosexuality? seen in Croatian culture. Um, good question. Um, it's not really something that is, um, accepted. Really? I'd say it's a very, very, very strongly Catholic culture. Um, I guess in terms of my family network I, I really I don't think that it's not really something that's brought up, if you know what I mean. It's just kind of not really mentioned that my immediate family that they're quite accepting, So that's fine. It took them a little bit, but [00:01:30] they got there. So at the end of the day, they love me. So don't really have a choice, I guess. But, um, yeah, it's definitely something that's not, um, accepted in the in the foreground, I guess. And did you pick up on that when you were when you were at high school? And and I guess when I was younger, it wasn't really something that I even thought about it because I didn't know any any, um, out gay people. I, I guess. Um, yeah. So it was kind of [00:02:00] and I don't really think it's much of the the culture. I think it's more of the It was more of the religion side of it. I guess so, Um, definitely. And I went to Catholic primary school and all that kind of stuff, So it was very much kind of your typical nuclear family Was the mother. The father married, and and then they had the Children. So that was definitely something that was instilled in me, I think, on the avenue, so Hm. So how did you feel when you were having a girlfriend in high school? That was very secretive. [00:02:30] My parents didn't know about that or anything when I was at that age, but, um, how it came about I I It just happened. I I met, um um, girl I was at school with and yeah, it it just happened. So I was very, very secretive of that. And I guess, um, a few people at school knew II, I think, Um, but there was a lot of bullying, a lot of kind of teasing and stuff around it as well, So it wasn't really something. I was out and proud, and I think a lot of [00:03:00] the teasing and bullying I received at high school, um, kind of made me a bit wary of coming out in the in the future. years. I guess so. So when did you first realise that you were attracted to women? Um, I guess when I met this girl at school I I wasn't really I didn't really date prior to that. I didn't have boyfriends or girlfriends or anything like that. So, um, yeah, I just I I've always kind of thought Oh, yeah. No, I could. [00:03:30] I thought when I was younger that I could admire the beauty of a woman or so that I never really kind of clicked that it was, um, more there was more to it than just admiring. I guess so. Yeah. When I look back now, I can definitely see, um, times where? Yeah. God, I played. I played soccer. I did all the typical things when I look back at it now and all that, but, um yeah, I. I guess it kind of fully came to fruition when I met. Um, that woman. Yeah. So that must have been a bit of a mind shift in your own head. [00:04:00] Was it? Yeah. Um, I think I don't know. I've always kind of been a person that I would definitely give anything a go once, so it wasn't. I wasn't kind of, um got to not give it a go. It was very confusing, I think. Just when you're at that age, though, there's everything is confusing, You know, you're finding out you need to know your body getting to know, um, where where you are in the world. And that's just it's just another thing. I guess so, Yeah. It was pretty. It was pretty mind jolting. It was pretty. It was I don't know, it was weird. [00:04:30] And so how did that affect you after that kind of first experience in terms of, you know, being out at school, or you were mentioning a wee bit of bullying at school? Um, there was yeah, quite a bit of bullying and stuff like that. A lot. And so I But I was quite I was quite a loud person at school. I was I. I guess I was quite forthcoming in the sense that I thought you if you're getting bullied, you fought back. I guess so. I um yeah, I had It was I remember some [00:05:00] really pretty nasty comments and stuff made. There was there was never any any physical bullying, and it was just more more, but I guess that kind of stuck with me. It still stuck with me now. I guess so. It, um it it made me kind of stay definitely in the closet for a few years after that. After that kind of experience after I left. So, um, school. Yeah, it was pretty pretty terrified. I was. It was just more of a thing that just, you know, if if what's the point of getting that much abuse and ridicule if you're gonna, um I just wasn't [00:05:30] really, I guess strong with myself. Strong enough with myself to deal with that at that stage. So what kind of school was it? It was a pretty It was a pretty open school. Um, was yeah, it's quite hard to explain with that kind of, um, it, like, I had amazing teachers here. Who, um, they were so supportive and brilliant, but it was just I guess, um, there was a coed school, so it was a lot of the guys that gave us a lot of grief. Definitely. Were there [00:06:00] any completely out students or teachers or support in the school? Um, there are a couple of gay boys. I remember I was quite good friends with a couple of them. Um, but they weren't They didn't have partners or anything. They were just kind of quite quiet boys who kept himself, Um, not not our teachers, but very supportive teachers who had an amazing, um, deputy principal at the time. And she was very, very, very supportive. So I remember her. Everything she did there. But, um, yeah, [00:06:30] that was kind of the only, Really, It wasn't really a, um, support group or anything like that at school when I was there. So, yeah, it wasn't really much, um, in terms of sex education or anything. Like there was there was sex education. But it was pretty much If you're sitting with a guy and a girl, this is what happens. And this is how you protect yourself from being pregnant? Pretty much so. There wasn't anything, um, in terms of, um, education at all. Yeah, that was pretty much the to that. You kind of just learned from from what people told you and [00:07:00] getting involved. I guess so. So you were saying it was a couple of years after that, and before you actually kind of came out? Definitely. Definitely. Probably five or six years after that. So, Yeah. So what happened in that period? Um, I was dating guys. I was really unhappy. I was drinking a lot. I was, um just Yeah, kind of biting my time I? I don't know. I wasn't I wasn't in a good head space. I just didn't I wasn't happy with it myself and I Yeah, [00:07:30] I tried to live a life that wasn't me, so Yeah, it's pretty, pretty tough time, but got through it in the end. So how did you get through it? Um, I It was kind of a process. I kind of got to this. I was in The last relationship I was with with the guy was pretty horrific. I was, um it was a pretty abusive relationship. So that kind of, um yeah, that kind of put me off people relationships in general for a while. And then I was very lucky. I've got amazing, amazing friends who just kind of helped me through. [00:08:00] And then, um, I met someone one night and yeah, it was a pretty cool woman, and yeah, I just kind of guess I was ready to give that avenue a go again. I had amazing friends. I knew that if I could tell them anything and they wouldn't judge me or turn me away or anything and yeah, I think just having that support around me allowed me to kind of be true to myself. I guess so. Yeah. And he was amazing. I felt like 1000 weights [00:08:30] to be lifted off my shoulders. It was just Yeah. So why did I waste as much time? But I guess I was just Yeah, it too wrapped up in, um, societal ideals that I assumed were the correct ones and things like that. So, yeah, it was. Finally I decided I was going to be true to myself, and yeah, it was pretty cool. So, what age were you then? 22 21 22. And you talk about societal ideals. What? I mean, what were the things that you were kind of receiving [00:09:00] from society in terms of what should you have been? Um well, as I said earlier, I was raised in a Catholic kind of, um, environment. So the ideas were you got married to a man and you had Children after you were married. Um, the whole nuclear family ideal that I had was my probably my biggest thing to deal with, because I always I've always wanted Children. I always wanted to be a mother and all that kind of stuff. So that was something that I kind of struggled with for a while. And then I guess I [00:09:30] after getting more education and and learning things, I realised that it's actually pretty easy to do if you are in a relationship with those on the same sex. So that was definitely my biggest, um, obstacle, I guess, to overcome. So with this new found kind of just openness and freedom, Um, how did that impact on you? I guess I was a lot happier. Um, I kind of got involved in in workwise. That kind of, I guess I've been [00:10:00] I felt like I'd been, um, under a blanket, I guess, for so long that I wanted to help others and that in a similar situation and kind of yeah, support people who are going through similar processes and celebrate that you can't just be who you are, and don't be ashamed of it. It's you can just waste so much time being too scared, but yeah, So I wanted to kind of get into that environment, and I did. So, um, I was actually, at the time I was at uni and then I. I was doing my postgraduate [00:10:30] in PR and communications, and I got assigned to do some, um, work with and couldn't have been a better match again. Um, it was amazing. Absolutely amazing. And, um, with him and another another gentleman, Julian Cook. Um, we, um, work together and does the festival, which was so exciting. And it's something I just completely, um, completely fell in love with when I was working, doing it. So it was really exciting. And, yeah, so [00:11:00] is this part of the, um, the foundation? So I was at the foundation at the time, and basically, when I was with my dad there, um, he does a lot of work with, um, underprivileged youth and things like that out in the in south Auckland kind of area. And, um, through that we wanted to do something that was, um, kind of a youth inspired, um, festival, but also a festival. That's basically it was celebrating diversity. So, um It wasn't just a queer festival. It had obviously queer elements in, but, um, different cultures different, um, [00:11:30] Sexualities different, um, beliefs and everything. So it kind of just encompassed that. And because obviously, we're in such an amazing city that here that in Auckland there has so many different, um, diversities. It's pretty much it's, um it's key. So, yeah, we wanted to celebrate that and explore that. So it was really exciting. It was really exciting. So what were some of the things that you were doing as part of that? Um, I was the event coordinator, so we had something like 50 something events. It was it was a like, um, but I kind of I mainly oversaw [00:12:00] a majority of them, but, um, the main ones had most involvement. And with the things like, um, the ladies, um, events. So we did a couple of, um, did one, which was a singer songwriter night. So it was quite cool. And then we had another, like, kind of more dance party thing, and yeah, there's lots going on. So but, um, I kind of took over that that aspect. Yeah. So it was very exciting. It's interesting you use the word queer? What? What word would you use to describe yourself? Um, I'll probably say queer. [00:12:30] Yeah. What does that mean for you? Um, I guess it's a reclaimed, um, reclaimed word. Um, obviously, it's had its negative connotations in the past, but, um, I, I guess it's just kind of it's it's a for me is defined as not having a typical straight sexuality. So, um, I, I do see sexual sexuality as being quite fluid. Um, with people especially, um, Well, with myself, like I. I know that there was times where I wasn't I. I [00:13:00] identified as, um, just a liking woman. But, you know, it took me a process. So it's queer is kind of, I guess, an umbrella term for all all that. I guess so, Yeah. So with the the festival, there were a number of kind of queer elements. Are there any different issues than doing like, a mainstream event? Um, yeah, I guess so. Um, in terms of things like, um, getting sponsorship and stuff, it's, um, a lot [00:13:30] of marketing things. You have to. I guess you can't. You can't lie about it, but you got to kind of, um, play the play the card of the queer card because if they if it's in their marketing plan to, you know, um, that said demographic, then obviously you've got to do it. So I guess it's not just, uh, say, for example, a dance party, not just like that's the kind of case. Say, it's a queer dance party or a gay dance party and you generally will get, um, sponsorship with people who are obviously trying to hit that demographic. So there are. [00:14:00] But it's not too different, I guess. Like there's at the end of the day if, um, if you're organising something at A at a venue, I think I've I've never really come across any any place that's, um, been homophobic or anything, Um, but then again, I have mainly focused all my kind of work around the road kind of area. So obviously that's kind of more of a, um, a area that's more accepting of of gay people. But I've never really had anything any kind of homophobic, um, response to venues or, um any [00:14:30] people that are going to be working involved, and it's just it's majority of the time being pretty positive. So, yeah. What about in terms of attracting audiences? Uh, do you find that there are specific things that will attract a queer audience and or repel a queer? Definitely. Definitely. Um, and definitely. And, um, the sense of the a lot of the women's events I run, Um, it's I've had, uh, do a night called Proud Mary, which is kind of a female. Um, a musical night. [00:15:00] Um, and I've definitely come up. We've had times we've had I've had to get, like, a male sound guy or something like that. And there's been a a few kind of, um, what's a guy doing here kind of thing? It's generally I've found, um, the older generation have more problems, but, um, it's I. I completely I respect to understand what they went through in their time. So I can I can see that, Um, but yeah, it's. And when, When advertising and stuff, um, you're gonna get a queer more of a I'm I'm talking in terms [00:15:30] of of the girls at night here, because that's generally what I've done. Um, if you have, um, queer performers and stuff, you're definitely more likely for them to come. And because they can relate, they can identify with these people. So, um yeah, that's kind of how I've attracted that kind of audience and how I hit their mark. So and is it wrong with me to to try and identify things as, like, queer shows? And that I mean, do you when you're putting on events, do you say OK, well, this is actually a queer specific event. Or do you say Well, actually, anybody can come to this. I am. I've [00:16:00] always believed that I don't, um my event open to anyone so you can come along as long as you respect the environment and you don't, um, hold any rough judgments or reservations. And if you cause trouble, you have to leave, obviously. But, um, I don't see why. If you're if you're out, you could You can't go to an event with your girlfriend and your brother can can't come along. Who's supportive of you? That's I think it's ridiculous if if that can't happen So I've always made a stand saying that it's, um it's a queer space where you can bring like minded [00:16:30] individuals as well. So people and people who support because it's all about having your support and, you know, it shouldn't be. Have those lines that you can't. It's like it'd be It'd be the same as saying that, um queer people can't come to a straight bar. I guess that's how I see it. So, yeah. So what are the biggest things that you've learned working with the the the Mika Haka Foundation? God, I learned so much there. It's not funny. Um, I was extremely lucky to be working with her and Julian, and they're phenomenally, um, talented and wonderful individuals [00:17:00] who taught me a lot. Um, I Yeah, I learned pretty much a lot in a small amount of time I was doing, um, things I was doing budgeting. I was doing, um, a lot of event stuff. I I was lucky to have. I guess there were a lot of frameworks in place from previous things they had done, so they could teach me a lot. I learned how to, um, to set up a lot of meetings. I. I made a lot of networks through there as well, which was brilliant. Um, yes, they were kind of the main main kind of things and also how to how to approach the queer community as well. Because there [00:17:30] are different. Um, it's not just, I guess an umbrella is approaching the the trans community approaching the lesbian community approaching the, um, the beer community that there's a lot of different kind of protocols and things as well. So I learned all that through through those guys, so I was very lucky. So what are some of those protocols? Um, I guess. Well, for example, I'm going to, um if you're gonna make, um, be I'm, like, going to You can't just walk in as a woman. I wouldn't have known that. It's, um, kind of, um, a space [00:18:00] and, um, things like, just little things like that Little, um, rules of the of venues and things. So, yeah, it's quite it was cool. It was really exciting. And, um, I got to meet people I probably wouldn't have met through if if not so. Yeah, it's great. So, actually must be quite easy to kind of put your foot in it. If you're not careful and time. I guess it's just being I guess I had to keep in mind. You have to be respectful at all times. You got to be careful what you say. Because not everyone has obviously the same views as you. And especially when we were doing a festival that was pretty [00:18:30] provocative and, um, provocative. Um, and I guess we we could have still not even agreed with everything that we're doing. And it's so hard to please everyone. I guess so. So why was it provocative? Um, there are a lot of, um this is not just in the community, I guess. And and, you know, there are a lot of quite, um, exciting, um, kind of sexualized kind of things as well. So we had beautiful dances from, uh, Malaysia and stuff, and, uh, we had drag [00:19:00] performances on a lot of nights and things like that. So it wasn't everyone's cup of tea, and some of the events were a bit out there, but, um, I guess not every man and his dog would would kind of enjoy it. It's Yeah. So did you actually get complaints from from the community about what was in the festival? No, no, not really. Nothing. Um, nothing kind of formal. Um, I just guess that and a lot of the time with the events I've organised and been involved in, there's with, with all the positive criticism [00:19:30] of you're gonna get negative as well. So not everyone's going to agree with what you're doing or how you just It's just little things like how you go about where the where venues are held or where, um, what time of day things are. It's just little silly things. So but at the end of the day, um, people support it, and it was fantastic. And it's gonna happen again this year. I think so. It's really exciting, too. So yeah. Yeah. So in doing that work, did you feel that you were, uh, giving back, uh, or or or helping younger, queer people? Was that one of the driving [00:20:00] things for you? Um, definitely. I think there was. We had a lot of youth elements in it as well. Um, Jay, um did, um, kind of a glam boy. It was called glam boy Youth showcase. So it had a lot of the great thing I loved about his, um, shows. It was straight kids and drag queens and queer queer kids all together doing this most amazing talented show and they were kids. They were anywhere from, you know, 8 to 16. I guess so. It was phenomenal, and it really just it blew my mind. And it was so cool seeing them all working together and doing things. So it wasn't just kind of [00:20:30] having one night, which is drag night and one night. It's kind of all encompassing together and all kind of working. It was, uh I get Goose now, thinking about it was so cool, but, um, yeah, it was just great being able to provide platforms for kids to actually express themselves and be who they are, I guess so. It was really cool, because it must be quite easy to get wise or or put into a niche like, say, this is a queer festival or or whatever. And I guess that's fine if you're out and about. But actually, as as as kids growing up, that maybe aren't and they're looking for stuff. Definitely, [00:21:00] um, completely agree. There's you. I think if you're still questioning, you're a lot more likely obviously, to go to something that's not just labelled this as a gay event, as you say, it's, um and it's great and it just it opens kids. Mind as I say, you could have, Um, I don't know, Couple, 33 straight girls doing a dance at this event, and their boyfriends or cousins come along to watch it. And then they get exposed to kind of, you know, some some drag queens or other kind of quick kids, and it kind of becomes normalised. I guess it's not. It's not [00:21:30] a taboo to them. It's kind of they've seen it and they can relate and kind of cool to expose those kids to different, um, people in different, um, cultures and stuff as well. So it's cool. So was it around this time that you started working with Rainbow Youth? Um, it was just a little bit before that. I was doing obviously a lot of a lot of work with and was quite heavily involved in the gay community at that time. Um, and I heard that they were looking for a new board member at Rainbow Youth because someone had left. So I, [00:22:00] um, applied and yeah, got voted on, which was really cool, and yeah, I'm really glad I did it. So yeah, it's a busy time though. So what is Rainbow Youth? Rainbow youth. Um wow. Where do I start? It's an organisation for, um for queer youth. Pretty much, um, that provides support. And, um um you have pretty much support for, um, questioning youth and their family and friends. And it's [00:22:30] you, It's you. You run. Yeah, completely. Youth. Run. Um, all the boards, um, 27 and under, um, all the all the facilities and everything, or I, um youth. Yeah. 2700 as well. Um, we have the executive director who who isn't, but he he's amazing. If it wasn't for him, I don't know where we'd be half the time, but, um, yeah, we've got a couple of adult, um, advisors, um, who come in and basically [00:23:00] give give their wonderful, um, world of knowledge that that they have on certain issues and things. So but, yeah, it's pretty much a youth run youth participation organisation. So it's Yeah, it's awesome. So why did you want to be on the board? Um I. I guess I wanted to. I've always wanted to. I remember learning about a couple of years ago, and I thought it was a really, really, really cool, Um, organisation that is so vital. Um, and in in this country. And I just kind [00:23:30] of wanted to get I've always wanted to get involved and I never really knew how. And I saw the opportunity, and I knew that I had skills that I could offer and yeah, I guess that's kind of why I wanted to get I really wanted to help and be involved in such a cool, um, cool community thing. It's not. It's Every day I go, it's amazing, like I just I love it. What's the most amazing things? Um, seeing kids who come through and and and you'll sit there and they'll tell you if you're in the centre and you'll get stories of, um, you know, I've I've I've got my first girlfriend and my first boyfriend, and [00:24:00] I like telling stories about how you know, I went to school today and I'd get bullied once. And, you know, I did what I did. What you guys said to me to do. And I, you know, and also stories. There was one last year of, um around the school ball time where a girl was at an all girls school in Auckland And, um, wasn't she wasn't able to, um, take her her girlfriend to this. They denied her and said, No, you can't. So she decided to, um, take it to the Human Rights Commission and things like that. And these are kids that have, um, who have been associated Ra youth and you know, who have got the support there, just like this is like 15 16 year old. It's fascinating. [00:24:30] And it's so cool that these kids have got a resource and in getting the information that allows them to to know that for one, it's not right that you can't, um, be be out at school. It's it's it's just ridiculous. It's that basically, yeah, just them. And we've got a, um, an education officer Now who, um, a young lady who goes through high schools and is basically doing queer, um, education, too. So, yeah, well, that's that's in the in the stages, so getting through to a few schools, But obviously there's [00:25:00] still a bit of, um, walls up around, like all the all boys schools won't let her in yet, but, um, we're trying, but it's just it's cool things like that that You know, I, I could only dream of having something like that in high school. You know, I've been taught that what the difference of, um, you know, gay, lesbian, bi transgender is and how things work. And it's OK to have those feelings for people. And, yeah, it's really exciting. So when you were in high school, did you have any knowledge of rainbow youth? Um, not really. I have. I heard I remember [00:25:30] a couple of things, but it wasn't I didn't really have the resources, I guess to, um, to to go, um, for further. That's why I think this thing of, um having going into high school is actually talking to kids is amazing because it basically outlines exactly what they offer. And I guess when I was that age as well, it's you kind of put that thing. If you go to someone like that, it just automatically. If someone sees you there, they're gonna think you're gay or whatever, and it's quite a big, big deal at the time. So, yeah, I just don't really have the information or the yeah, the [00:26:00] knowledge of what it was. So I think we're starting to have more a presence now and then. It's not as scary as it as it makes out to be sometimes. So when you're sitting in the centre, what are the issues That that the kind of, um, kids are coming through now with what are the what are the big things for? For personally, I probably am not the best person to talk to. I'm kind of the overview. But what we have done recently is, um, we did a undertook a, um, a research [00:26:30] thing over, um, New Zealand Point research that did a thing for us. So basically, we asked what, um, queer youth need what? Um, what they what they want. Um, if there's a need for a, um, more network through through the country and stuff like that, and pretty much thought it was, um, education voice. Um, it's the same old stuff, pretty much that I've heard. I've spoken to the LED, Tommy in the centre and things and it's, um, kids coming through that, you know, dealing with family dealing with, um, friends. It's it's the same kind of I don't [00:27:00] think it's really changed too much over time, but, um, that's on the kind of the ground on the ground here. But when it comes to more of a high level, I think, um, what we're trying to do is, um, give queer youth a voice and and bring it to a higher level. So it actually get kind of respect within, um, you know, policy changing and and and laws and things. So because there's a lot of work to be done and we're trying to work towards it because at the moment it's all a bit fragmented throughout the country. So that profile raising must have had a huge energy [00:27:30] behind it. When it was, it was to CO. When dancing with the Stars. And he donated all his proceeds to Rainbow Youth. What impact did that have on the organisation? Huge. Um, it allowed us to basically do what we're doing now. And that is, um, to to undertake this point research study, which we did. And we've now, um, got a, um, employed a person who is basically a net a National Youth Court network coordinator. I guess [00:28:00] so, Um, basically, his role is to go through, um, the country and go talk to all these these queer youth groups um, throughout New Zealand and see how we can build these amazing support groups and networks and get us as one voice together. Because if we if we have one national, um, Power, then we can actually do some change, which is so exciting. It's really cool. So I guess because youth is at the moment just an Auckland based um organisations. [00:28:30] So having that money allowed us to basically reach out to a national level and give support to people in small town stuff that need it the most. Probably out of, um, you know, So it's it's really exciting, and it's just allowed us to do so much work, which is really cool. There's a lot more to go, though. It's good, though. It's good little stepping stone. What are what are the next big things for? For you and Rainbow youth? Um, definitely. The the biggest thing is, um, that we're trying to get a together around, I think Queen's birthday weekend, Um, and that's we're trying to make it accessible [00:29:00] and affordable for any queer youth that want to come along and be part of this. So, um, it's basically getting everyone together to go right How can we move forward? What do you guys want? What's the, um what do you What? What do you guys foresee for queer youth in the future and work towards making things happen? So, yeah, it's really exciting. It's gonna be pretty cool, I think. Yeah, it's really interesting that you say that it it's the similar issues, you know, from maybe 20 years ago, that are still current today in terms of, like, you know, coming out to family and stuff. How do I mean? How do you develop resources that, [00:29:30] actually I mean, do you think you'll ever get beyond those issues? Will they always be there? I hope so. I really do. I think it it obviously does depend on on families, um, that you were brought up in and how every case is different. But, um, it's definitely a cultural thing. So hopefully with, um, with more if more education and, um through all, it's not just educating you. It's educating parents and schools and getting into those kind of things. Um, if if they If the if the foundation start to change, then obviously people's [00:30:00] thinking will start to change. So just educating people It's gonna take a while, I think. Um, but, um, what happened in my generation, I don't think might happen one or two time, maybe. But it's just all about changing education, how people think and making, um, being gay and and, um, majority of terms not a not a bad thing or not a not a frown upon thing. It's just another thing, you know, Just make it. It's so it's the same as, you know, I don't know everything else in the world. It's not. It's not an issue. It [00:30:30] should be, um, have prejudice against, So but yeah, we're we're working towards it. So where did you get your kind of world view? From where does that come from? My world view? Um, I guess I I've got a pretty open minded family. Um, immediate family. I've always I was lucky that I was brought up to never, um, never judge anyone or not, um, have any reservations about anyone because of their race, colour, gender, whatever. That's not not, um, not something [00:31:00] I was ever race believe and always treat people how you want to be treated. So I guess it was quite good, um, to have a foundation for that. So I don't Yeah. And I guess I've I don't know. I've always kind of attracted just interesting people into my life. I don't know how I do it, but I Yeah, I've got some pretty cool friends, but they're all very different. And they've all got, um, Yeah, I wouldn't say they're your typical mainstream line people, but that Oh, God, I love them all. So I don't know. I just I guess I've always been I've allowed myself to be exposed to a lot of different [00:31:30] areas of of the world. And yeah, I just kind of take everything in and yeah, don't really judge it. Keep it on a judgement level at all. There's no point, isn't it? Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So, what do you hope to achieve with rainbow youth? Um, pretty much with rain youth. I really want to see it go to a national level. I really want to see, um, things happening so we can do policy changes in the government. I can. I really want to see that. I think I think it can. [00:32:00] I really do. Um I just want to see like I do really want to see this national network happening. So there's, um, just a one voice that we can all push together. So there's there. There are kind of changes that need because there are so many changes that need to be made and especially things like in high school, like actually, should I should be in the curriculum that, um especially with education and stuff, that it's not just, you know, straight education. It should be because we asked, you know, schools are most are one of those 400 places for, um, they that's where [00:32:30] they learn. So there, there, things that need to be put into place and things like, You know, you should If you if you're out, then you should be able to take your partner to the ball if you want and things like that. So it's all those little things that we're trying to I really want to see start to happen. We're getting there. We're doing baby steps. Hey, so this, um, this series of interviews is all about kind of making a difference in the community and and also kind of personal development. And I guess, would you have any advice if somebody was sitting back listening to this and thinking, Oh, I want to get involved. I want to do something. But I'm not sure [00:33:00] you know where to start. What would you say? Wow, there's so many things that you you can do. Um, if you want to get involved in things like, um, with youth queer youth? Definitely. Um, if you're in Auckland, I just get, like, ring us up around you is we've got events happening all the time. When you volunteers for if you want to get, um, involved in, um we do so many things that we we've got groups that have It's about eight or nine groups. Um, that happen every week. Um, we've always open for ideas [00:33:30] and volunteers and things like that. Um also, um, definitely things if you're older, um, giving out outline, a call, and places like that they're always looking for help anywhere. Just just call up and and ask on the website and have a look. I'm sure there's, um, um, contacts and stuff, but all these organisations need as much help as they can get. And even just if people volunteer for one day and help out giving out Flyers or something. It's It's every every little bit counts. So yeah, and I guess even just turning up to queer events [00:34:00] just being out there, I guess. Exactly. And supporting. Um, obviously, there's no people at these events. They don't They don't last. So, um yeah, just supporting, um, queer run initiatives and things like that are really important as well. So we actually do have a voice, and we can continue.

IRN: 147
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/johnny_givins_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003888
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089182
TITLE: Johnny Givins profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Johnny Givins
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; Auckland; Gay Auckland Business Association (GABA); Hero (Auckland); Johnny Givins; Queen of the Whole Universe; gay; media; performance; profile; television
DATE: 3 February 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Johnny talks about growing up, producing the television series Queer Nation and documenting the Hero parades.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hello? Uh, my name is Johnny Givens, and I, um I'm a media person. So therefore, I make television programmes. I train people in the media, and, um, my background as a gay man is I'm Scottish. My papa goes back to Scotland and Ireland, and, um, I went to the great training institutions of of gay people in Britain and Ireland. I went to a boarding school, so therefore I got trained as the [00:00:30] great homosexuals of the British Empire were in public school. I went to school in Dunblane, outside Stirling, as a as an eight year old, nine year old, 10 year old 11 year old. And then my family miraculously decided to move the whole family to New Zealand. And so I had another great gay event, a cruise. We cruised the world on the Oriana and I was 11. I think it was, [00:01:00] you know, but I just loved it. And I've I've been wanting to go on cruises ever since at that age and even at boarding school, I mean, did you know you were gay? No. Yes. Yes, yes. Well, I just had a wonderful time with guys, you know, I just had a really nice time, and I never thought that anything was wrong with it. I thought that's what you did. Well, it was a boarding school, so we just played with each other, and we had We had fun, you know? And that's the sort of thing. And we never thought never thought anything about it. Really? That was just what you did. And because then, um, but I had four sisters, [00:01:30] and so my four sisters were my grounding, if you like. And so my relationship with women were was with my mother and her sisters and my own sisters. Uh, and so I have a a very, um uh uh A real relationship with women rather than a romantic relationship with women. So the fantasy is not there, uh, with it. And so I think my upbringing was it was actually about men. It was about that's where pleasure lay. That's where fun and excitement and, uh, and [00:02:00] interesting things happened. So how long did the boat journey take that? That took, um I think it was six weeks, uh, to get to New Zealand. And then we arrived on the on in Queen Queen's Wharf. I think it was at that stage and the family moved to where my life just became as a kid. Of course there was no, no, no gayness about it at all. Uh, but basically, I went to high school. I went to intermediate school, was a boy soprano, went to high school, and I never thought of myself as gay in those senses at all. [00:02:30] I just, um I had girlfriends. Um, I went to, uh I did played football. I, um I played. I did play the school organ. You know, II. I did do all the singing and the dancing and the theatre and stuff like that, but that was basically because my mother was a ballet teacher. So I've got all the perfect pedigree for a gay man. Yeah. So was there any conflict in your own mind coming from, uh, a boarding school situation where you were playing with guys to suddenly being in a very [00:03:00] kind of bloke? New Zealand town? Um, I. I never, never, never felt the conflict. Um uh, I. I discovered there was some, um there was one of the teachers Who, um who was gay. I believe I found later, Uh, but And I was really close to them. I thought he was a He was a really good guy, but it never occurred to me that it was something different. I thought it was just That was what you did, you know? But we never I never had any sexual relationships with any of the anything like that. And, [00:03:30] um, And when I was living in in, did you feel that? Not really, No, it was just all that's just how it was, you know? And I was having a lovely time filling up, um, the big tits and, you know, just rolling around on brim with carpet and, you know, and and just getting getting blue balls and all that, all that sort of stuff you do as a teenager, I just thought of myself as a normal, normal teenager. It wasn't until I was in my mid twenties, when I really fell in love that I realised I was, uh that that was what I was. [00:04:00] I was a gay guy, you know, and I'd been in love a couple of times before, I never looking back on it. But when I first fell in love with the guy and I was 24 at the time. Uh, that's when I That's when I Oh, fuck, This is This is where I am. How did that happen? Um, it was, um, another actor. And, um, he was I was an actor at the time, and I'd done my university study. And I was, um, being an actor in one of the theatres, and he came up from Wellington. He was an actor in the other theatre, and we met at a party, and [00:04:30] I just thought he was the most attractive thing I'd ever seen. And he looked at me and I looked at him and we and I said, Well, you're coming home with me. I was terribly up front, you know? There's no alternative, and we and so we went home, and funnily enough, one of the girls in the house, I was sure she thought he was coming home with her. I quickly made her clear that that was not the case. Um, and that was and that was I remember going in having him, and, um, [00:05:00] we went to bed that night, and it was just the most wonderful sensation. You know, I, I just got felt really fulfilled, you know? And, um uh, and that started a long, long term relationship. Where do you think that kind of ease about sexuality came from? For a lot of people, there's always, you know, there's kind of conflict and, uh, maybe, maybe not internal, but maybe coming from outside, maybe from their parents, maybe from wider field. Uh uh. I think one of the important ingredients [00:05:30] in my, um, in my, um, background was my theatre work. And so I was working as an actor, and so we were working very close and very intimately with each other. And our training, uh, was very physical and very, very open and very understandable. And there was gay people. There was lesbians. There was straight people. There was old, there was young, you know? And you really had the training, Uh, with Raymond. Hawthorn was to about respect, and it was about, uh, understanding some thing underneath rather than the [00:06:00] than the ephemeral, if you like. It wasn't about the it wasn't about the external. It was about the internal. And so therefore, the appreciation and the way that the six drive worked as an actor was really important as part of the training. Really? And so we actually, that actually was a huge breakthrough for me. What other things did acting give you? Oh, the ability to perform, uh, and the ability to keep a story going and to I suppose, uh, to live [00:06:30] a life, um, and not and just do things rather than complicate things. So it allowed me to actually say, Well, I'm a gay guy, and I'm in love with him, so let's do this. So it became action orientated. And so, um, my my life became quite simple, really. And it also allowed me to live in a community of like minded people. Uh, because the theatre scene in Auckland was incredibly rich and incredibly fulfilling and incredibly, [00:07:00] um, uh, embracing and warm And the people, you know, I still know people from that period who I have a deep affection for What years are we talking about? I was in the seventies. This would be mid seventies when, um we we didn't throw anything off it, Really? At this time of the time, Uh, I remember being with my partner, and, um, and we were coming up from from, uh We've been downtown, I think, or something to eat. And we're going back to the theatre. And it was raining and we [00:07:30] were in K Road on a Thursday night and we were running across and he got to the middle and he turned around and he put his hand out. And I also remember running towards this hand and fun of the hand and holding his hand and running across the other side of the road. You know, laughing. And that was just the the image of the freedom that we felt at that stage. There was never any thought of law. Never thought any thought of, um of retribution. Never, ever any thought of that. Um, [00:08:00] I'm sure there must have been in our mind somewhere, but I, I really can't remember it. How did your how did your family react? Uh, my sisters were really cool, and they always things. And my mother, um, she sort of didn't really didn't. If that's what you want to do, that's you know? Well, you're Johnny and you'll always be Johnny. And she was fabulous. So when when we bought a house, we bought a house in Kingsland. I sold the escort as the fund as the as the Ford Escort got sold so we could buy a house together. And so [00:08:30] we bought a house and what must have been only 75 or 76. And Mum came up And, uh, and we from with Dad and we had a house warming and we had about 50 60 people there planting the garden and all the old school friends. And it was rang one and Johnny's house. And and And every mum did tours of the host showing people Johnny and Johnny and and one is bed. You know, this is their This is their room and that's the guest room. And and and and, um, we just got on with life now. The sixties and seventies in New Zealand [00:09:00] for theatre were were were very, very big, weren't they? Very bright, very bright. They especially in the late sixties after Mercury started. Um, and a lot of the the training and the, um and the coming off, um, coming of Age of New Zealand Theatre happened in the seventies as people didn't feel the need to go to England to be trained as a writer actor before they could work here. And so you've got a New Zealand type of training coming through. And so the people that were trained at [00:09:30] theatre corporate with me, um are the people that I have been the the leaders in the dramatic? Um, change. I've been part of that of, uh, ever since. Did that feed into work for, say, television? Uh, certainly did. Certainly did Yes. Yeah. Uh, but that's not how I got into television. I actually got into television because, um, I was acting, and I did 12 years of just, um, repertory acting. And it was all theatre at that stage. And TV acting was something you never even considered or film you never even considered. [00:10:00] You know, Bruno Lawrence did that, you know, that sort of. And there were. There were Sam. Neil did that, but they were They were different from us as actors as such. Um And so we, um, in the, uh, at one stage, I was working in Christchurch at Court Theatre, and I just missed my man so much. I just went I I've I've I've done this. Thank you. I'm going home. And I just wanted to have a change. I just wanted to, you know, he was in Auckland and I was in. He was in Auckland and I was in Christchurch and I just came home [00:10:30] and said, Right, that's it. I'll find another job. And I went to visit a friend of mine who had done a T VA TV show. And, uh and I'd just been to an employment agency looking for, um, a job. And the only job they could give me was in the miscellaneous pile, which was an auctioneer for Turner and growers, you know, And unfortunately, I just missed that. That was last week, you know? And so I went to visit this friend and and he and and he said, Well, what do you want to do? I said, Well, what do you [00:11:00] do? He says, Well, I'm a TV producer and I went, Oh, can I do that? And he said, Well, you have to work at that one. And I went, Oh, yeah, I'll do it. And so I got a job that week with TV NZ as a script girl, and so I became the script girl. Uh, because I could type. And so I got sent to Wellington and rang when I came down to Wellington and we lived in Wellington for several years. Uh, while I trained as a as a TV, Um, a girl then, Um uh, because of my theatre background, I was given the [00:11:30] opportunity to train as a director and became a drama director and then became and then so I worked in drama and became a drama director in Wellington and then a producer in Wellington. And then they moved me to Auckland. So I became producer in Auckland and director in Auckland. So that's how I got a television. What is a script girl? A script girl, A script girl is that is now called a director's assistant or a producer's assistant. It used to be called the script girl because the script girl used to have to type the script [00:12:00] out on a imperial typewriter. And so they used to get the the copy from the director and their and their job is to do the scripts of the script girl. So I was the last of the script girls, because immediately I got the job because they couldn't call us script girls anymore. They had to call us TPAS, the television producers, assistants. And so I became part of the television Producers Assistants Organisation. And now then the campaign then became P a and then D A. And now they become production managers at that time [00:12:30] in the eighties. Can you recall? I mean, were there any gay characters on television in New Zealand? Uh, very few. Very few, indeed it wasn't. It was, um it was wasn't mentioned at all. If there were, there were these awful characters. Um, like, um, are you being served? Um, which was the comic? Um, queen, uh, was, um, or the gay character got was the one who got killed in the in the second reel or the one who almost almost won [00:13:00] and then got killed. So it was always retribution. That's what I remember of the gay characters in that time. What about things like, uh, Hudson and halls who weren't They weren't openly out, were they? Well, to us, they were I thought it was actually I. I thought everybody knew they were gay. That there was There were just two guys and they were having a wonderful time in the kitchen. And they were gay guys on on and everybody loved them. And that was sort of the English tradition. You know, where they the the Daniel and the people who were [00:13:30] gay personalities. And there's a legend of the comedians and that was just accepted. That's how they were flamboyant characters. They were called and Hudson and halls were like that and they were terrific. And they they were, um they they never actually, um, declared publicly right, But they were just That's how things were. I loved them. I thought they I thought they were so funny. And they were good gay, gay friends. And they were a good model of two guys who worked together and lived together [00:14:00] and and explored the world together and had great parties. So when did you leave TB NZ? I left TV NZ when I was offered a job with TV three. Um uh when they started up, I was offered a job to direct comedy programmes for them and then directed comedy programmes. And then, um so I had to start my own company to do that. And then I worked through, um TV three with the various shows and became part of the Kids Productions and, uh, developed, [00:14:30] um, all their original stable, uh, of programmes with, uh, the one another wonderful gay producer called Rick Simpson, who is one of the archetypes and archetype. He's one of the, uh, Rick Simpson is the, um he's the inspiration for a Children's television in this country. He is just, and he still is today. So your production companies then started moving into things like, um, the hero parade in Auckland. How was that in terms [00:15:00] of, like filming AAA Queer Pageant? It was a fantastic opportunity. It was great. Remember the the first hero parade? I was in Queen Street, watching these people go down on the front of cars and stuff like that, and it was outrageous. And the second one was thrown out of Queen Street and and we it was going down road, and we thought, Well, we've got to go and support that. We got there And there was these hundreds of thousands of people in road and I was standing outside, um, surrendered [00:15:30] Dorothy's with a lady called Bettina Hollings and BERTINA. Hollings was the inspirational programmer for TV three. She's the one that just put the stamp on, and she was She had fantastic ideas, and she turned to me and she says, we have got to do this. You do it. And so I went. Oh, all right, then. So I went and explored it, and we were standing opposite, um, the Armadillo restaurant, which is nice sponge. And I said, Yeah, we'll do it from up there. And I said, We'll get the top ones. Yeah, Yeah, she said yeah. [00:16:00] So next year, we, uh, decided that we could get some money from New Zealand on air. Uh, because it was a special interest group. Our community was being established now then as a special interest group because of legal legal change and all sort of stuff. So we man, we managed to put that together and, uh, with I think, five cameras, I think, with the top twins on the veranda with Lucy Lawless as a guest and and we filmed the parade [00:16:30] and it was wonderful, and we turned it around within the week. I think it was at that stage, uh, with to an OB truck and it went to air, and it was one just wonderful. And so that that was the first one, to film. That sort of event had never been done before. And it was fabulous. Yeah, it was like, what, You know, just a wonderful show. It was a great show. It was entertaining. It was a political. It was, uh, a protest. [00:17:00] It was, uh we took the street, and I just wanted to capture that for TV. And so, of course, when I went to air, people around the country saw what affected this this wonderful evening had on the people that were there because we did a lot of crowd stuff as well as as well as, um the floats and so on. And so it was It was entertainment, and it was just great. So what were some of the issues In terms of, uh, the content. So, um, in terms of things like kind of nudity and language, [00:17:30] did you have any guidelines from TV Three as to what you can and can't show? Never. Never did it. If it was good in the streets, the police had allowed it to happen. Um, we could film it. Uh, they never said, Oh, you can't have any deaths or you can't have any of us it's not. It's not like some of the old traditional broadcasters. They were wanting something really interesting and, um, they got it. And when it came down to it, it was, You know, these these parades, people don't really do that That day they were It was just to be out there and to be proud to [00:18:00] get out and be proud to stand up and say, I'm gay and these are my friends because it was all about gays and friends and people being heroes and people supporting the people with HIV. Are there many productions like that where it's actually just down to a programmer, saying, Oh, let's do that and and you go away and do it? Or do you often have to kind of, like, pitch an idea or Oh, most of the time, most of the time you pitch the idea, you get the idea for it and you pitch it, and so every season [00:18:30] has to be pitched new. What's the changes? Um, what's the standards for it? How it's gonna work? Um, not what your personnel are going to do nowadays. It's far more codified and really, really just the inspirational period uh, when things are starting up, we may find the same thing with Channel four. We may find the same thing in the in the future with with Internet channels where people will just be inspired just to do something and and just do it, um, and give the creative people a bit of freedom to do it. Um, I, I think [00:19:00] a lot of the network control now, um, is what are we delivering and how are we delivering it? And that, uh, proscription method of production. Um, it tends to limit the inspiration and the joy of the productions. So when we started doing, um, looking at Queer Nation, for example, um, we had I had already done a few, um, short seasons on the, um V two type channel in, uh, in Auckland. And so, um, I was [00:19:30] asked to take it on with from with, um, Netty and Libby and, uh, Andrew. And so they were gonna do it. And I was the executive producer, and I gave them. And so I gave the infrastructure for it and to the production company, which would allow the relationship with the network to be developed and how that would happen with TV NZ and it was very supportive from the network's point of view. Um, they they we had to do the proposals [00:20:00] of what we're gonna do, how we're gonna do it. Um, what support we had, um, the the formality of it had to be done because we were asking for an awful lot of money at that stage just to do 20 episodes. Um, and that's the That's how the first thing happened for each episode. How much would it cost? Roughly, Roughly. It was. I think the first one was around about 20,000 or 24,000 per episode, whereas the normal programmes would be made for 100 and 15. [00:20:30] You know, they were much, much bigger than that. And so this was a really cheap programme for the network. Why was that? Uh, basically, it was a minority programme and therefore it was fast turn around. Therefore, we got it in there. It could be done for that price. And we did it because that's the way we could get it. Because we knew we could get round about that price, uh, for the programme, you're saying that the network is supportive. But when you look at some of the broadcast time spots that are aport to say, like, um, queer programming, they they seem [00:21:00] like 11 o'clock on a Thursday night or or what have you? Was there any kind of conflict in terms of where the huge, huge one of our big problems was not content? It was time, time, time The time was going to air. And you have to remember in those days you just went to air once and that was it. And if they gave you a repeat, it was in the middle of the night. So you might get a night repeat. So twice a week it goes out. And once at, uh, 11 o'clock, our most successful [00:21:30] time slot in Auckland was with the local community station triangle and they put it on at nine o'clock. And, of course, a lot of the Auckland people watched it at nine o'clock and it was terrific. It was terrific. Um, we had right up to the director general when Ian Fraser was the director general was requests to move it into prime time. We would have not prime time. We would have. We were we were suggesting it going to the 10 o'clock slot and 10 o'clock would have made the made the transition [00:22:00] into a wider audience rather than a specialised audience. Um, and what we were finding in our ratings, even at the 11 o'clock slot, was that we had incredibly wide range of audience watching right throughout the country. Like it wasn't just, um, urban. It wasn't just a gay population or a male population or a identified urban population. It was generally right throughout the country, and it was mixed. [00:22:30] So was there any, um, thought in terms of having a queer show on a mainstream channel? Was there any thought in terms of, uh, not doctoring but altering content to to get to a widest possible audience? I'm thinking in terms of you know what content you have and how you say that with the kind of language that you use. Um, it's an issue that we discussed Lots. Um, but we came down to our the I. I was the executive producer. [00:23:00] The day to day running was Andrew Netty basically, and and Libby and the the team that ran it. And we made a point of the gay programme was a gay programme made for gay people by gay people and how they express themselves was how we talk that we decided that it wasn't our place to make a gay programme explaining gay to a straight audience If a straight audience went to come and watch it and see This is how this is our This is our programme. [00:23:30] This is what we do. This is our our issues. This is what we deal with. This is how we're the things are happening. This is what our our art artists are doing. This is what our our social life is like. This is what our our leaders are like, you know, in our community that's what made it real true and accurate and therefore we therefore it was pungent and it worked. And we found that if we tried to change it so that it was actually Oh, let me explain. Let me explain a blowjob to the straight community. They go, you go [00:24:00] now what's the point? You know, and it just went silly. So how did the queer community respond? Uh, we got we got the amazing support. Um, every year we had to do a reapplication for the money for the funding for the next year. And we, um especially netty was excellent at this, and she'd just contact people around the community and say, What is it? What's the programme meant to you this year? Could you send us a letter of support and thanks? And the letters of support were fantastic. Um, it was really good. Uh, so that's [00:24:30] the first part of it. Always supportive. But my God, our community's bitchy. Oh, heavens. You know, take a take a group of queer people like God, the tongues get sharpened. We were terrible. We did this and we did that. It was just that a special meetings, we were We were ripped apart, you know? But when it came down to it, when it went away, people went, Oh, but we really like that It, you know, so to speak. And so the the the the it meant something to [00:25:00] the community. And it meant people wanted it to be right. They want then the huge arguments that went over it, and that's because it was important. But people, people just thought it was just so terrible. So how does that kind of feedback affect you. Oh, look, it was, uh uh, That's part of broadcasting, you know, reactions of people to do things. We make the programmes. You know, we try to be as as as empathetic we try to work with. We're working with other people. We're not elitist as such. We're we're telling people stories, [00:25:30] and some stories are are upsetting. And some stories had to come out. You know, that upset people and others were just great fun. Um, And each year there was a different sort of feel, you know, we got we got told that we were one year, We were far too party, you know? And it turned out it was the titles because the titles we made new titles every year. And because one of the titles, um, had a mirror ball in it. So everybody thought that that we we were just doing the party scene. You see what I mean? So So everybody interpreted [00:26:00] that the whole thing was party and we went back and looked at it and went No, we're not doing that. But but the perception of it was, can you recall the most controversial topic you've covered most? controversial subject going into the detail. Kind of. We had a ban on photography When, um, there was somebody peeing into somebody's mouth. We had that, um we had that as a as an issue at one stage, and it was a public, publicly exposed [00:26:30] photograph in an exhibition, and we had filmed it and we put it on air, and there was that was that that that contravened the standard of some sort. You know, similarly, the it wasn't the peeing itself. I think it was the mouth or something like that. You know, it was it was one of these sort of standards, and we always did that as far as controversy. Um, goes, uh, we had controversy all the time. Um, issues. Um, uh uh, the hero issues about what was happening with hero and things. [00:27:00] Um, the, um the right wing, um uh uh, that we did a marvellous series on the launch of the right wing opposition to gay, uh, community, um, through one of the big through the American, um, church corporations standing up here. And, um, a wonderful reporter, uh, just followed that relentlessly. And it was It was a He was like he was. He was like a terrier. He got this issue and he just [00:27:30] worked with it. And until it became very clear that it was that it became publicly known that this was, what, this, this this this church group, uh, research foundation were actually putting out, um, a pro anti gay propaganda which basically was hate the the the hate legislation that we got changed. So it was effective. The the the the the The programme was effective in getting information out to our community and getting feedback to the political system to make things change. [00:28:00] And so and we kept going right through the civil union, um, debate all right through that period. And one of the big arguments was keeping the programme on air at that stage was that we needed to know what was going on, and the network programme has kept us doing at that stage through that time of the nineties and early two thousands, there wasn't a huge amount of kind of queer programming on television, and I'm just wondering, with your shows Did [00:28:30] that invite more, um, broadcast complaints from, say, kind of right wing groups or or or religious groups Did you feel that you were being targeted? Uh, yeah. And originally, we were originally when the first programmes that netty Andrew and, um uh, made, um They were banned and and banned. And Nelson, uh, you know, they weren't allowed to broadcast all that sort of stuff. Uh, but once the programme went on to air and became part of the national psyche, Um, sure, people targeted it. [00:29:00] Um, but we just kept on going. That was our job. We just kept on going, Um, so I never I. I didn't feel it became a magnet for right wing criticism. It became Queer Nation. And when we did a research on it, the name Queer Nation had a 99% recognition rate in the general. You know, when they do those surveys, um, as the queer programme. And so that's what the queer programme was, and that's where people went to watch it. And that's where people got their information about [00:29:30] what was happening and how to come out and where you came out, what other people and support for people. So that was our sort of basic thing. How do you feel about being a pioneer in terms of queer TV in New Zealand. Hm? How do I feel about being a pioneer? I never thought of it in those ways. It was just That's what we did. And that was what my school was doing at the time. And, um, I was successful. [00:30:00] And so I'm I really feel rewarded for the effort that the whole team of people put in, Uh, and the where we went to with it, uh, with some really talented, um, production people both on the camera and the sound and the writing and the and and the, um, and the research side of it and the people that that came and joined the team each year. And that changed each year. We got different perspectives on it and to actually be the the executive producer. So to make that happen is a rich reward, [00:30:30] a really rich reward. And I feel like that's a major thing I've been able to help with. Why did it end? Why and change of network change of network executives change of priorities. Um, change of climate within the broadcasting industry and the community. Um, and there was, um, a person who took over, um working at TV NZ who, um, just destroyed um, the communication between [00:31:00] us and the community and, um treated people really badly. And people felt, um, assaulted. Um, by, um, What the network was doing and, um, they, um uh and it was it was a terrible time. It was a terrible time. And so people, um, felt unsure about whether they want to work in it and whether they had the community support. And it just and there was some, um, there was there was just It was a terrible time. And there was a bit of, um uh, in that time, there was [00:31:30] a bit of a disorientation in the community as well. About what are we gonna do? Why are we doing this? And T and TV NZ decided that they wanted to cover programme. Uh, that was different because creation has been there for a while, so they want something different. So they went and find things that were different. And the other different programmes, uh, supplied some difference. Uh, but it didn't satisfy you. It didn't give something that the that, um I think the community really wanted and so gradually over a couple of years, it [00:32:00] just disappeared. So is there, uh, for want of a better word, a quota in terms of like queer broadcasting on New Zealand television that you can only have one queer show on at any one time? Well, not really. Um uh, the, uh, New Zealand and they would never look at it like that. Um, but the money was allocated to queer programming as the money would be allocated, um, in their in their minds, if you like special interest programmes. Uh, where the Pacifica with the Pacific Island one [00:32:30] Uh, the Asian programme. Uh, the, um the Christian Programme, Queer Programme. And you know, there was a number of them bundled into that sort of money that was allocated, so it wasn't a quota. It was just like it was that that's the money there. And so when even when Queer Nation went when, um, that we decided to try something else, the money was still sort of there for us to use, but because the network wouldn't support it, they ended up with, um small programmes, different sort of [00:33:00] programmes. And I think I think we went through about four different styles. They couldn't make up the moment what they wanted. And one of the problems was that they wanted to, um, reach the straight audience. They didn't want the that that was one of the main the oh, we get we can get them wider audience. And so then it was, as you can imagine, we were very confused. So at the time in the mid two thousands, there was no kind of, um, idea that you could use that broadcasting money to, say broadcast on the internet or [00:33:30] that that wasn't a possibility for you. No, not for the broadcasting on the Internet was, um uh was just too complicated and the convergence hadn't happened. What we had done in the Queer Nation series, uh, was develop websites where the Web, Queer Nation website and we had a marvellous website person. And so we employed them as an extra if you like in the team and they started interactive websites and so people would call would would enter their information, they could find all the [00:34:00] programmes. We we find ways of doing the programme and letting them share the programme off through the through the website. And then we discovered that if we were going to put it up there for them to watch, we'd have to pay this much for it. And so we went to New Zealand on air and TV NZ and said, Well, if we're gonna do that, um, we'd like to get $25,000 a year just to do that side of it. Oh, no, we can't. We can't. Um, the New Zealand on air weren't allowed to give us money for the net. [00:34:30] And so we had to get rid of our net because I couldn't. We couldn't afford to do it as well as keep the programme going with the rising costs and everything like that. So one of the saddest times of Queer Nation was when the year we had to stop doing do, having a focus on the on the Internet. And so the Queer Nation website just sort of stopped developing. And it's interesting now, in hindsight, that could have been again seen as pioneering because, you know, five years later, absolutely but and it was all there, it was all there ready to go. And we kept [00:35:00] a a server in the office that could have been plugged in at any time. That was because we had really talented people were there was a great team. It was a wonderful team, and that's the pioneer side of it. And it was just It was It was great and people were calling up and and the interchange of letters was happening and people were getting emails and people were were, um, getting information. And we were putting on on extra information for stories. All the stuff that's happening now, but we just thought that would be really good for us to do. Was Queer Nation ever seen outside [00:35:30] of New Zealand? Uh, yes, it was, um uh, we went to we took it to can, um M com at can, um uh as a minority programme. And, um tried to sell it to gay broadcasting because it was just gay broadcasting. And there was a wonderful channel happening in London. And there was a love channel happening in Canada and Toronto. And so we met up with, um, with those on that trip, and we sold it to them. And just before we [00:36:00] signed the contract, you might remember in that period they had a meltdown with the, uh, football rights and all these people had to suddenly pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for football rights. And so all the money that was going to go into the queer programme in these people's digital platforms disappeared. So we ended up selling it in a in a format to, um, a Canadian channel. Um uh, and we repackaged [00:36:30] the Queer Nation stories into two programmes. One was called the G spot. Um uh, which was male gay. It was the gay everything to do with G. And it was all the gay stories and the one and the And I think the woman one that all the lesbian stories went into she spot. I think it was she I think she got it was something like that. It was 22 different. We we repackaged it for [00:37:00] international sale, and they bought it and played it for a number of years, and they just re recycled it. But again, they went through recycling as well. Re recycling, restructuring. Um and and it's turned. Now it's, um it's turned into a different type of a different world. But we we did get it seen there. Yes. What do you think? Your biggest lessons learned from doing something like Queer Nation with, um, nothing works better than personal commitment to things. [00:37:30] There's something that comes from inside you. Communication comes from inside you. And therefore so my lesson that I was a gay man, I was making a gay programme and therefore it was good to do and it was awarding to do, and I had all sorts of problems with it, but that's what we did. Uh, so passion, passion and commitment is what makes good broadcasting. What about the future of queer broadcasting? Uh, immense future, Immense future for it. Um, because we can [00:38:00] we tell great stories. You know, um, communication media is about storytelling. And if we have good storytellers telling good stories, we've now got the devices to get them to people. We've got the means of communication, whereas the the means of communication was a monopoly held by very few people. Uh, in this country to get to people, you went through TV NZ or TV three. That's how you got to them, you know, [00:38:30] And you might have wanted to get to them through sky, um, or the international platforms. But that was we never considered in when in the in the in the two thousands. We never considered that as a platform for us. Now with the Internet, uh, with my, um, with Internet channels, uh, with the ability to deliver specifically to specific audiences, the days of broadcasting are numbered. The [00:39:00] days of narrow casting is the future. So narrow casting doesn't mean that it's necessarily a smaller audience. But it's an audience that is worldwide and can be reached. And so our stories in New Zealand, if they're accurate, if they're clear and if they're passionate, are very relevant to an audience around the world. That's where I see the future of us. It must be an amazing journey for you to [00:39:30] have been in broadcasting over this period where you know, when you think like, back in the eighties, where it was a monopoly in terms of BC NZ who had radio TV Symphony Orchestra and now we it's so diverse. Ah, yeah, sure. What a wonderful, wonderful time to be here, you know, and you sort of go Whoa! Well, how come we didn't know, but that that was gonna happen? Um, the interesting thing about it is that there's diversity there, but there's a sort of a there's sort of a dumbing down of it as well as the commercial [00:40:00] side of it goes for more and more money out of it, more and more audiences and goes for lower common denominator and doesn't want to offend, doesn't want, doesn't want. That's not offending because some channels do want to offend. Um, but it's about it seems to be, um, the the lack of content. It seems to be driven by different things, and so there's immense opportunities, but they're not being fulfilled because the commercialization of of the industry is [00:40:30] leading to an undermining of content. So people are not expressing themselves. They're in sound bites or the or the that doesn't doesn't fit the format or it's they want real people doing real things. Um, in a in a false situation like reality TV Um, which is the is a good doer. There's nothing like a good do you know who needs to put people on an island to do that? We've got a country called New Zealand. It is survivor, you know, there's the do [00:41:00] at the same time as Queer Nation. You were also involved with the Gay Auckland Business Association and you became president? Yes, I did. After Queer Nation finished. Uh, because as a media person, I just felt uncomfortable being involved in a in A in A group. Um uh, when we were trying to cover things, Uh, although I was very supportive of gay Auckland business, Uh, and that started way back in, um, homosexual law reform. And it became a a, um, a vehicle [00:41:30] for, um uh, and for men and women in the professions to have, um, a spokesman spokes and I and, um, an ability to, um, speak without being, um uh without being chastised. Um, and it was very successful in that period. Um, and it was very successful for homosexual law reform. Uh, gaba then developed into into really good good in networking opportunities, and I and so I got involved [00:42:00] with it at that stage and became the president. And, um, did a lot of the stuff we were doing in in Queer Nation. And and we still did it in the with the organisation like, for example, doing the Queer of the Year and just having awards and so giving Helen Clark a queer of the year award, and so she'd come and meet the community, and so she'd meet us at dinner and have a good, um have meet us and talk to us and and ex Express things. And so we, um we did, um, things with the council [00:42:30] elections and getting the gay, um, voice out into the community and getting our voice articulated and doing fun events. You know, let's just get together and have a bit of bit of a party, and that's what we like that that's good fun. And so that's what. And so it was a very inclusive organisation. That's what I liked about it, because it was business. It was professional. It was people who worked as teachers as well as, um, as in the commercial [00:43:00] industry, it was law people as well as people who did gardening. You know, Um uh, men and women. And it was a really good group of people, uh, of a variety of ages. Tended to be a bit maturer than what was happening at the clubs. Um, but that's not to say that all the Gabba members were not down at the clubs as well. So in all the things that you've done in terms of, like theatre TV, uh, things like Gara as well. What's been the highlight for you? [00:43:30] One of the highlights for me was the gay games in Sydney, Um, that where we knew the gay games in Sydney were happening. It was the first time a great international event of that magnitude had come to here, and we were determined to actually make it a broadcasting event. So we lobbied TV NZ and lobbied Australia and lobbied other broadcasters and put together a team just like they do for the Olympics and just the and for the international, um, [00:44:00] games and came up with an idea of doing the gay games for New Zealand. And it went through all sorts of ups and downs and changes and things. But we finally went, took our Queer Nation and went to Sydney, and we went out every day and made stories just the same as we had done for Queer Nation. Going out and filming came back to a base in Sydney, edited it, and I got on a plane with the tape, came back to New Zealand, and then we rushed up and gave it to the network, [00:44:30] and they played it. And there was, um and we played it within the week. So people here were watching what was happening in Sydney that week, and so we did the specials, and I remember being Andrew in Oxford Street and and going This is what we this is. What we've always wanted to do is to go somewhere with our people and tell their stories in the gay world. And we were meeting wonderful people and telling wonderful stories and that I think we made two big [00:45:00] one hour long specials and they there and people, they repeated them because people just had to see them. And that was one of the highlights of my, um, gay TV world. So are there issues within the queer community now that, um, a big Has everything been resolved or what? What are the issues for you, I guess. Well, I suppose the issue for me at the moment is maturity and being growing growing into a community. And I was 60 on January the 10th, [00:45:30] and so that was a big surprise to me, you know, because 60 was always the old people, uh, going and so therefore, I never and I don't feel like like I sort of think I should feel when I was 60 you know, as a mature, retiring member of the community and going gracefully into the, um into the into the future. Uh, and so I think there's a big issue on ageing in our community. Um, we have gone. The people who are are now into the [00:46:00] the baby boomers who are now into the, uh into the mature years in their life have suffered enormously. Um, we are the generation that lost our friends. We are the people who suffered through the HIV and AIDS epidemics and that we have lost a whole generation of leaders the people that we would have followed, you know, there were people that were older than us who died [00:46:30] prematurely. So just like the east coast lost a whole generation of Maori leaders in World War two with the Maori battalion and and the World War One World War Two. they they lost a whole lot of generation and therefore they're handicapped. And so, for the ageing generation of of our community is is missing this group of people that so therefore we've got to find another way of doing it. And so, um, I think the the maturing and the way we look after our, uh, senior, [00:47:00] um, community members is going to be one of the issues over the next few years of how our community defines itself in this country. Um, uh, it's all very well to be young, fit and beautiful and having a lovely time and and falling in love with this stuff. Um, but we want to know that we can do this through our lives. It's not just a passing phase. And so the I think the maturing of the community and how we deal with, um, people going into retirement, what sort of life we're going [00:47:30] to have as, um, as senior senior members of our community, is something that I'm facing. And I know other people are, um, are interested in it, too. We don't want to get the situation of, um, gay men and women around the country, um, going into retirement homes and having to go into the closet, for example. You know, uh, or become outrageous. Um uh, which was the other way of doing it in the past, so this series is all about, um, people making a difference to their communities in a in a variety of different ways. And I [00:48:00] guess I'm wondering, would you have any advice for somebody sitting there thinking, Oh, you know what? What can I do? How how can I make a difference? Where do I start? What do I do? Um, how do I get involved? What? Do you have any thoughts on that? I suppose you start. You start with one, you start with one. Making a difference is about one conversation with one person, and it's true conversation. And then you have one with one. Like Queer Nation started with a conversation [00:48:30] between Andrew Whiteside and myself in a coffee bar on road. And he was going, Oh, we don't know. You know what? What do you think we could do? And I said, Well, what you could do is this. And so then they came back, and the next time Libby and Netty and I and Andrew got together and that was that was the small group. Then the next time we got together with other people, and then we and we gradually got the network involved, you know. So we gradually built it from just one conversation started as the best advice. Feel a passion and [00:49:00] start it. If you've got an idea for a story, you start it by writing it down, you know? Then you got something to talk to somebody about. Then you've got something to how How can we take this to the next step? And so you take it one bit at a time and therefore the passion becomes the driver, The identity, the who you are. If it's not you, if it doesn't feel like you, it won't work. You've got to be you to do it.

IRN: 148
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/jonathan_smith_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003887
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089181
TITLE: Jonathan Smith profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Jonathan Smith
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: Auckland; Gay Auckland Business Association (GABA); HIV / AIDS; Jonathan Smith; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Queen of the Whole Universe; arts; drag; performance; profile; relationships; theatre
DATE: 31 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Jonathan talks about growing up and creating, and running the Queen of the Whole Universe beauty pageant.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi, I'm Jonathan Smith. I was born in London back in 1954 and I moved to New Zealand in 1957 with my family when they decided to immigrate to New Zealand. So I'm one of five Children. My mom and dad are now passed away, and I'm the youngest of the family still alive. I had quite an interesting schooling. I. I started my schooling in Auckland at age five. Like, you know, most boys would and didn't like school at all. I didn't, um, didn't [00:00:30] exceed. Uh I didn't find it very comfortable at all. And that was because in my very first two or three years of schooling, I had a teacher who was quite resilient about me using my left hand and kept whacking my left hand and saying, You got to use your right hand. So my schooling didn't start off very well. To the extent that my brother used to have to drag me down the street every morning to go to school and not a good start. We we moved to a just, um in the when I was about seven or eight. And [00:01:00] again, I, I had quite a difficult schooling period again through primary school. And I think that was primarily because of the the bad start I had when I was about five or six. From there I moved to a college college was your typical small, rural college very, very orientated, uh, wasn't orientated in any way whatsoever towards the arts. And at that stage, I don't think I really understood that I was probably slightly different. I don't think I definitely didn't understand that I was gay. [00:01:30] All I did remember was that the school wasn't really working for me and I wasn't working for the school, but I stuck there. I stayed until the seventh form and got UE. However, it was a really difficult time. And, um, the only thing that probably kept me going was the fact that I got very involved in amateur dramatics at the local play theatre. If it wasn't for that, I think my schooling probably would have been even worse than what it was [00:02:00] in saying that. However, at at secondary school I did have a a really good drama teacher who could see that I had certain skills in other areas. So she cast me in the lead role of Andrew on the line. We lead role. Um and that was when I was in the fifth form. So here I am, on stage in a very sports minded rugby and cricket sort of, um, environment. And I'm playing Andrew on the line. Still didn't realise I was a little old gay boy. Um, [00:02:30] again. So I had probably one teacher there who knew that I actually had potential, and that was in the arts. Rather than engineering woodwork or technical drawing, which was the way I was forced to go, I left school in the seventh form and actually applied to go to the theatre school in Wellington and was accepted. However, due to a number of reasons my maturity, lack of funding, lack of confidence, I declined that offer. And I look back now, I just don't believe that Number [00:03:00] one I was accepted because it was exceedingly hard to get into theatre school back then. That was about, you know, 19 sixties, so I said no. And I went and worked for the New Zealand post office, you know? Hello Here I am artistically minded living in working in the post office. However, I. I think what it did for me was just helped me mature a little bit. However, being the youngest, I can always remember my mother and father and my brothers and sisters used to always be talking about London and everything they did in [00:03:30] London. Not from the perspective that they missed it because they realised that moving to New Zealand was actually the best thing they did. But because I heard my brothers and sisters continually talk about London, I felt as though I needed to go back. I needed to really discover what my heritage was about so much to the grief of my mother. At age 19, I upped and moved to London, and that's when things really started to move for me. In what way? In what way? Well, I remember [00:04:00] my second day in London here I am, staying out at um up by the airport, and I caught the underground into Piccadilly Circus. You know, he's this little boy a lot. You know, I wasn't that mature for 19 at that age from on the tube, going to London, going to Piccadilly Circus, and I'm sitting on the train and there's this guy sitting next to me and he's reading Gay Express. In fact, I can't remember what it was called the London Gay Times. I think it was and I was looking over his [00:04:30] shoulder and I was, um, reading it and also looking at the pictures. And, um, I was finding this really intriguing. And I remember I'm 19, and, um and then halfway along the trip, he turned around to me, folded up the paper and said, Here you are. You can take it home and read it if you want. Well, that was shock Horror, I think I got off the station, got off the train at the next station, left the newspaper on the train, jumped off and I sat on that that [00:05:00] platform and I probably sat there for about an hour, thinking, What the hell is this about? And then I started thinking back to when I was much younger, 12 and 13, where, um, I remember going up into the the loft of the house, you know, as as a kid, you do. You climb through the house and under the house, and I came across this bundle of Playboy magazines that my older brother had left up there, you know, away from mum and Dad. So I used to go up there with a torch staring at these Playboy magazines, [00:05:30] and it brought back all these memories of when I was 12 and 13 upstairs in the loft, looking at these magazines and realising I wasn't actually looking at the girls bits. I was looking at the boys bits and what the boys were doing with their bits to the girls. And, um I think here I am sitting at believe it or not, it was Earls Court Underground where most New Zealanders live. Sitting at Earls Court underground jumped off this train, said no to the Gay Times, and [00:06:00] I think the penny dropped and it dropped in a huge way. And I think for the next two or three months, I really started to understand things more and explore a lot more things in London and the London area. I don't think I still understood that I was actually gay at that stage. So prior to that point, were you just asexuals? Did you have any knowledge of homosexuals growing up? I think I was definitely as though maybe I was [00:06:30] bisexual. But I didn't understand that, too, because growing up, you know, I'd play around with the girls down the back of the back of the rugby field or around the back of the cycle cycle sheds. Um, I also had AAA boy who lived next door, who was about three or four years older than me, who, I remember, had an exceedingly large Penis, and he used to ask me to come over and watch him play with it. And, you know, certain things used to come out of it if I used to play with it. And I remember doing that sort of thing and and him sort of wanted to try, try and play around with me. But at the [00:07:00] same time, I was also sort of playing around with girls and and lost my virginity to a girl when I was about 18. So at that stage, I, I don't think I understood it. And and being in a small town like that, you're just not privy to it. But, you know, I look back now and there were so many things that that I realised that really intrigued me. And one of them was, um my drama teacher used to quite often come up to the Mercury Theatre at Auckland. So this is, you know, the 19 sixties and because she [00:07:30] knew most of the people working at the Mercury, we'd quite often, um, go and meet the producer or the director. And one of them lived in the apartments around the back of Saint Kevin's Arcade. And I remember going in there once and her saying to me, Oh, this place is so fluffy. It's just typical of the way he lives, his life raging, Raging Queen. And because I didn't understand that I didn't understand it. But now, when I when I was sitting at Earl's Court station, I'm thinking all these things started to come back to me and I realised, Oh, my God, [00:08:00] that guy must have been gay. That's what she was. Meaning so, No. During that time, I suppose I played around with boys and girls, but I never really understood it or identified with it. So what year did you hit London? It would have been about 1972 73. And what was that like? Um, it was unbelievable. Um, first of all, from the arts perspective, I suppose I went to every single theatre that I could go to. I, [00:08:30] um I I you know, I did Carnaby Street all those things and and went to bangs nightclub and places like that. But I still didn't identify. I still didn't understand I was gay. So for me, it was a a huge eye opener. But it was also more about me finding out my roots. I went back to the house where I was born. I went back to the area where we lived as as Children. So that was more about finding out who I was as a person, or probably in more ways than one. Maybe maybe I went back and found out much more than I thought I was gonna [00:09:00] find out. But I only stayed there for about seven months. And then I moved to back to Hamilton, actually, and went back to work with the New Zealand post office and went back and shared a flat with a really good friend of mine. Um, a female friend who I thought I had feelings for. So even when I came back, um, at age 20 I was still exceedingly confused sexually to the extent I tried to take my life by doing an overdose. Um, but [00:09:30] if I look back now, I wasn't trying to kill myself. It was really, uh I was really screaming and screaming out for help. Um, that helped him come. Although I was sent to see a psychologist. Um, I, I don't think I understood why I was going to see him. I don't think I understood why I tried to take an overdose, whereas now I look back and I totally understand what it was. So I stayed in Hamilton for about two years. Then I thought, No, this is it. I've got to go back to London and for me, because [00:10:00] London was a place that I possibly identified, that I was gay. Although at that stage I didn't understand that I needed to go back to London to really understand this. And that's when on my second trip when I was 21. 21 was when I really started to understand who Jonathan was and what I wanted to do as a career, so that particular that particular year was very, very defining for me in so [00:10:30] many ways. That really defined me it defined my career, and it defined who I was as a person as well. And I think that's when I started to really ground myself. Maybe, maybe, but coming out in London, coming out in London, knowing you're gay at that age, there was a lot of catching up to do. And I tell you what, I had a really good time in London, and I look back now and I think I just don't believe some of the things I did. Unbelievable. Such as? [00:11:00] Well, you know, You you you feel as though maybe you've got to catch up on something so, you know, to put it on a nice term, I was probably a right tart. Um, in fact, I'm being kind. I was an absolute tart. Um, I enjoyed myself. Um, I probably didn't look after myself. Um, naturally back then. At that time, HIV A I DS wasn't around. However, other STD S were condom use was not prevalent. It wasn't it wasn't really pushed. [00:11:30] So, you know, you had to be very, very careful about catching STD S et cetera in England, so I probably didn't take care of myself then. I don't think I understood, um, the importance of my work because I had an exceedingly good job with British Airways. Very good job. And sometimes I used to go out partying so late that I couldn't go to work. That lasted for about two or three months, where I realised that this lifestyle was really having an impact on my work and I had a really, [00:12:00] really good career with British Airways. And if I carried on like that, it would actually ruin my career. So I really scaled it down. I still went out partying a lot. I made the most of all my travel, travel deals and free tickets. So I did a lot of travelling around Europe and into North America, etcetera. So I made up for my partying there and when I was on holiday. But I had to scale it back when I was in London, living in London the couple of years between the first trip to London and and subsequently [00:12:30] coming out and the, um, kind of confusion around the sexuality was that because I mean what was was homosexuality seen as a negative thing? Why? Why were you feeling so kind of caught up in kind of suicidal. The reason why I think I felt so confused and suicidal was that number one in New Zealand. I don't think there are any real role models. Anything to do with with gay or homosexuality was [00:13:00] normally depicted on television in a humorous way, so I couldn't look to that. I didn't actually have anybody to talk to. There was nobody in the family. I had no friends or friends or family. The fact I was living with a woman who I thought I was having a relationship with, there was nobody or nothing that I could actually refer to. Maybe I didn't investigate that, but maybe I didn't investigate it because I I just didn't know how. And of course, going back to Hamilton or going to Hamilton was no different to going [00:13:30] to much the same. You know, Hamilton was a very, very small city. Maybe if I had moved to Auckland it might have been totally different. So I think it had a lot to do with the environment that I was living in and still really, really unsure about my own sexuality and the fact there was just nothing there that I could relate to or or get guidance from. So can you paint more of a picture of what kind of gay life for you was like in the late seventies and early eighties? I think [00:14:00] that the best way to describe this was was the way I really understood the fact that I was was gay and I was actually OK to be gay, and I was very, very privileged and very lucky. The fact that I did get this particular job with with British Airways. When I went back to England, I was employed by Hamley's Toy shop, the biggest toy shop in the world in Regent Street. So this was also very artistic, and I was I was contracted in as a as a demonstrator. [00:14:30] So any new toy that came on the market, I had to demonstrate, you know, I was I was a kid in a in a lolly shop type of thing. So for me as an artistic person, this is brilliant. However, every day I used to walk past the British Airways office in Regent Street and it was massive back then. It was huge, huge, huge office, and I got this desire II I don't know. Maybe it was seeing the guys in uniforms. I don't know, because back then there were those beautiful black double breasted suits with with gold [00:15:00] braiding, and there was something about it that probably appealed. But the whole the whole concept of air travel really fascinated me, flying to England and back twice within that short period, and I was really fascinated by aircraft. I used to go to Heathrow Airport. I didn't used to go to Gatwick because Gatwick Gatwick was a no no. Back then, I used to go to Heathrow and and I was really fascinated and I thought, OK, I need to set a goal And my goal was to work for British Airways. So I rang up and they said, Well, if you don't work for a travel agency, [00:15:30] there's no way no way will ever recruit you. So I then decided to do a correspondence course, and I was the first person in England who never worked in an agency or worked for an agency that did this travel correspondence course. I got about 50% of the way through and I was getting like 99 100% because I really got into this type of work. Then in the Evening Standard, I noticed that British Airways were advertising for reservation staff to work at the central Reservation office in London, and I applied [00:16:00] and believe it or not, I got a job. So I was the first person I ever took in that did not work for an agency. The great thing was that they refund all the correspondence fees for me, which was wonderful. They didn't have to. And I remember at my interview they said to me, Where do you see yourself in two years Time? And I said, working on Regent Street and they said, That's gonna take you at least five or six years I said, That's fine but I'll do it in two, 1. 5 years later, I wasn't in street. I was actually in their new [00:16:30] flagship office in Oxford Street office at Selfridges. This was their new flagship. All the new branding, all the new publicity and media was based on this office. So I worked in an office with about 50 people. 80% of us were gay, including the boss. That's the defining moment for me that here. I'm getting emotional, even thinking about it. Working in an office where my boss was gay, my three supervisors were gay and 80% of the other staff were gay. Was [00:17:00] then an the moment for me where I could understand who I was, how to relate to other gay people and really understand about the gay lifestyle in London, because I only ever saw it from a partying perspective, you know, going to a nightclub. But by working with these people from all over England, not just from London, because a lot of them commuted into London, I actually started to see the different side of what the gay community was rather than the gay party scene was. [00:17:30] And as I said, that was a major defining factor for me when I joined British Airways in their office. And so from there from then, I think I actually started to mature as a person. I matured as Jonathan. I knew who I was and what I wanted, even though I think I achieved really well to get into that that particular position within a year and a half, I then had to set my goals even higher to make sure I was a supervisor or even higher than that. So I took on any projects [00:18:00] that I could possibly do, including working Concord, working in the state. So I did a number of things that I'm today. I'm really proud of that. I actually managed to do that at the same time. I was really understanding Jonathan's sexuality as well. Um, and who I was and what I liked, um, with regards to men and what I like sexually and and the fact that I could actually openly talk about this to other people and wasn't ashamed of it. I was able to go back to New Zealand for holidays and actually tell my parents I was gay and tell my brothers and sisters [00:18:30] I was gay. Um, if I'd been living in New Zealand, I don't think I could have done that. I. I really don't think I could have actually told my parents. How did that go? My parents were fine. They acknowledged it. They didn't talk about it. Um, my brothers didn't really, um, accept it. Um, And my sisters, I can't really remember what happened there. It can't have been too bad. Um, but remember I used to come home and I spend two weeks and then fly [00:19:00] out again and stop in New York or somewhere like that on the way back to to London. So, you know, it was a very flying visit to New Zealand to say hi, Mum and Dad. I'm here for a week or so. Then I've got to go back to London. Um, I think I became more and more interested in the arts because of, you know, you've got the West End. I used to attend a lot of things in the West End. Uh, I still used to enjoy myself as a as a single single boy. I had a couple of relationships. One was with a, um a cute Italian guy. [00:19:30] And then I had a lovely relationship with a Greek guy. It's interesting just saying that that all my relationships were were were were with Non-english guys, I think the non the non-english guys with the bongs, the relationships with the European men, I found something really fascinating and exciting about especially Italian men and Spanish men. Um, and even to this day, I still find them quite interesting. So I, I continued growing as a person, growing sexually [00:20:00] and and understanding my gender and understanding who I was. And then I made a major decision to to return to New Zealand. So that was after 10 years of being with British Airways. I returned to Auckland, and this was even after the Greater London Council offered me the apartment that I was living and they offered me the opportunity to purchase the apartment because I was living in a council flat. It's a long story, but I managed to get a council flat, and that was because of my sexuality. [00:20:30] This was during a time when the the mayor of of London, Livingston Ken Livingstone gay. He was very pro, um, housing, um, the the gay and lesbian community. And there were a lot of council flats around London that were very hard to let because of their position. They were in, um um, elephant and castle and places like that where a lot of the families didn't want to live. So he said, right, we're not gonna leave them empty. [00:21:00] So he went to the gay and lesbian community and said, If you can justify why you should get this apartment we'll house you. So I put an application in and I got much to my surprise, a three bedroom apartment in Elephant and Castle. So, of course, all the New Zealanders used to stay. You know what they're like when they go to London, they stay with anybody and everybody. Then I decided I didn't want to live there anymore because it was a very unsafe area. And they were just building these brand new council flats on Black Friday bridge overlooking Saint Saint [00:21:30] Paul's Cathedral. And I put in a really good application. And I got one brand new apartment on the River Thames. I don't mean I don't mean 100 metres back. I mean, on the River Thames. And right next to it now is the modern Tate or the Tate Modern, um, which everybody will know that used to be an old power station. So when I was living in the apartment that was closed down, it was graffiti. There were homeless people living in there, So yes, Just before I left England, I was offered to purchase this flat, and they'd also lend me [00:22:00] the deposit. And I don't believe it. I said, No, I turned it down. So, you know, that's probably my biggest regret in my life is turning that down. Anyway, I came back to Auckland and was just adamant that I was going to get a job in the airlines. Um, but British Airways in Auckland didn't want to touch me. They said they didn't like London trained staff. And I think the reason for that was I think they were scared because we knew so much. So I went and worked for Thomas Cook, which was revolting. Um, hated that. And then I got a job [00:22:30] with the Air Pacific and eventually working with Air New Zealand. And, um, I was there up until about 20 years ago. So how did you get from kind of, uh, working in the airlines to event management? Because that's quite a large jump. Uh, it's a huge jump. II. I work for Air New Zealand. I was an instructor there in New Zealand. I did a lot of travel. I came back. I realised that there was a possibility they were going to close the training school down. So I got a job at a U in charge of all the travel and tourism programmes. [00:23:00] Whilst I was there, my partner of 14 years passed away due to HIV AIDS related illness. Um, I was infected by him So 16 years ago when I was infected, I then decided I needed to do a major career change and I did some Post grad study, one of which was career development through RMIT in Melbourne and graduated and took over control or management of the career centre [00:23:30] at a UT. Whilst I was there and after my partner passed away, I started to offer my services to the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, predominantly the Burnett Centre. Anything I could do, but they were so great to help me during the nine months that my during my the nine months that my partner died leading up to his death. And, um, I said, I need to give something back to you and they said, Look, you've got really good organisation skills. You're really strong. With project management, you've got a really good eye for detail. [00:24:00] Would you like to organise New Zealand's very first AIDS walk? I said yes. So, on a voluntary basis I did that. I did it again the second year I was then asked if I would help coordinate the opening night of Phantom of the Opera the very first time I ever came to New Zealand. So I did that as a fundraiser with Starship Hospital. So that was three large events in a very short period. And I'm starting to think this is interesting. I'm really liking this. So I gave up [00:24:30] my job at the centre and I became self-employed overnight. And, boy, that was scary. I gave up a job that was extremely well paid. Um, and I just decided No, I need a career change. Newly diagnosed. I don't know how many years I've got left the fact that my partner was diagnosed and dead in nine months and I had the same strain, which is quite a heavy strain. I thought I'm going to be the same way. What have I got to lose? So I threw the job in and opened up my own company called [00:25:00] and, um, 16 years later, still doing it. What was your first experience or knowledge of HIV aids? My first experience was when my partner got diagnosed. What year was that? 1994? Yeah, it was actually a really, really horrific diagnosis because we had a group of gay friends. We didn't really understand HIV and AIDS we'd been. I'd been in this relationship [00:25:30] with them for 14 years. So when you're in a relationship like that, you're not always sort of connected with what was going on, and and we kept a fairly sort of quiet life. We sort of kept to ourselves. We didn't really do a lot of gay things in Auckland, so his diagnosis was really traumatic, and it took them a long time to actually diagnose this, whereas a diagnose it. Whereas today if I said to you, this person's got fatigue, lack [00:26:00] of concentration, mouth ulcers and losing weight, I don't think it would take much to work out that that was HIV. So he went through a period of about a month feeling really ill, and it wasn't until he was driving home one night that he actually had an accident in the car due to lack of concentration, and they put him in. They put him into hospital very soon after that and, um did some tests on him and said, Oh, we're going to test for HIV and we need to test you as well. Even though [00:26:30] we were in a so-called monogamous relationship. Um, um, they said we need to test you as well. Well, his diagnosis came back with a quite an advanced reading, which meant that he'd probably been diagnosed. Probably been infected for at least a year. Two years for me. They got a very unclear message. Unclear diagnosis. They said we can't tell at this stage, but the chances are you might you might have just been infected in the last month and you'll probably see a convert if you are going to within the next month. So that was [00:27:00] really our first introduction to it. Which is quite scary. Quite scary that we didn't really know much about it. So you didn't, um like in the in the mid eighties? You you didn't have any experience with friends or I had no friends? No, no, none whatsoever. And coming from England to New Zealand, if I'd still been in England, then I would have seen it quite differently in New Zealand. OK, there were reports I was hearing things on the news, but at that stage [00:27:30] we didn't really see anybody or know anybody at that stage. So for us, it was quite a shock. And and especially for him, as you can imagine. So how did you cope with that? Um how did I cope? I did cope. I think the most important thing for me was the fact that, um, he was very ill when he was diagnosed. Um, he asked the the specialist how long or sorry. He asked the doctor. How long did he have to live? And the doctor said about [00:28:00] nine months and he died nine months, one day later. So my my focus really was Was looking after him. There was no way he wanted to go into a hospice. He didn't want to go into Bay House. He didn't want to go up to the hospital. So we made the decision to bring him home. It wasn't even even with my diagnosis diagnosis, which came two months after his for me. I just put that into a little box and shoved it on my shoulder, and I forgot about it. [00:28:30] But that had a really defining moment on him that he knew that he had infected me. Um, I chose not to ask any questions, I. I chose not to ask him how he got infected. I didn't want to deal with it, I. I knew I wouldn't be able to deal with it in any way whatsoever. But it was obvious to me that, um he hadn't been faithful. He'd been having sex outside the relationship. And I think a lot of that was probably when I was travelling overseas. He had a lot of time at home. Maybe he perceived I was doing things overseas when I wasn't. I don't know, [00:29:00] but I, I look back now, There was a lot of things that were going on that I found a little bit weird, but he put it down to my paranoia. Um, and in fact, I've only just finished doing psychotherapy what, 15 years later to deal with all this paranoia that he actually put on to me because of what he was doing outside the relationship. So for his death, I was fine looking after him. I was fine then after he died, was when it really hit me. Because I then really had to deal with the fact that [00:29:30] he'd been unfaithful. I had to deal with his death I had to deal with the grief of, of nursing him through to his death and I had to deal with the fact that I was actually HIV positive. I had the same strain as him. Therefore did I have nine months to go, so that was tough. That was really, really tough. But I got through it. I got through it from a lot of help. A lot of help. Who who supported you in that time? The New Zealand AIDS Foundation, Burnett Centre was my main support and also my [00:30:00] my friends and my close friends and certain members of my family, because I actually had an agreement with my partner that I was not going to tell anybody. I was positive until after his death. I look back now and I think, Why did I do that? There's a lot of things I could go back and question now, you know, 16 years later, so at the time, why did you do that? I think it was out of respect for him. It really was for him and, um, he needed [00:30:30] he needed a lot of care. He was dying and it was a horrible death and II I He needed to have all the focus on him. And I knew if I told anybody I was positive, they'd ask, How did I get infected? Then all the blame would start being put on him. And I think it would have really, really affected the way possibly friends and family had actually dealt with him. I don't doubt in any way whatsoever that the Burnet Centre would have acted any differently. You know, the seemingly professional how or what he caused that or how he [00:31:00] got infected is not important. But it would have had an impact on our friends for sure. And I didn't want that to to be detrimental to that period when he was dying. So at that time, um, your life expectancy was, what, nine months, or were they? Um I didn't ask that question because I chose not to ask that question because I was slightly different. Slightly different psychology to my previous partner. Maybe he had He had [00:31:30] to ask that question there because there was some guilt attached to it for me. There wasn't, um I just presumed that I had nine months. However, at the same time, I've got a very different mind to my previous partner. I'm a lot stronger. I'm a lot more focused. So I in the back of my mind, I thought, Yes, I've got a short period. But did I really think I had nine months? No, but I knew I had a very short period, and and that was when I started to make some major major changes [00:32:00] in my life. And one of the things I did was the fact that I I failed so terribly at school and school failed me. I felt as though I needed to go out and get a higher qualification. So I, I did my postgraduate and teacher education and and pass that. And then I did a postgraduate and career development through Australia and pass that, and I think that was ready to prove to myself that I could actually do it. I didn't do it because I needed it for my job. I did it just to prove that I could actually do higher academic study [00:32:30] and to go straight into a post grad without doing a to do it without doing a degree. It was a huge move for me, but I did it. So was this at a time when, um, the new drugs were coming in? Uh, was that that's in the mid nineties, isn't it? Yeah, it was. This is about the same, like primarily when Gary was alive. Um, sorry. When Gary was diagnosed, a ZT was the only thing that was available, and and their philosophy was to pump it into people. And like [00:33:00] he, he would be taking 15 to 20 tablets a day. In hindsight, it probably brought on an early death. I don't know, possibly so. And the side effects of it was exceedingly bad. And then, um, I I chose not to go on to any medication, even though my my viral load Um, in fact, no, it wasn't my viral low because I couldn't test that back then. My T four count was was not super low. I just chose not to go on to medications because II I saw [00:33:30] what it did to him. So I had a period of about two years with no meds at all. And then during that two year period was when all the antiretrovirals were actually introduced. So I had options sitting there, but it wasn't plain sounding for me. I. I had a many, many a good fight with pharmac, including one particular fight that I actually told them to get stuff and I moved back to London because I couldn't get the medication that I needed. So I I was very, very lucky. And even today, you know, I'm very lucky that I've I've still got [00:34:00] so many options of antiretrovirals that I can take. He didn't have those options at all at that time. Was there a lot of discrimination or stigmatisation? Back then there was. And even today there is and I think, where I get where I receive the most discrimination against my status from within our community. Even today, I don't I don't get it from outside. [00:34:30] But in saying that, to be fair, when I was diagnosed, I did use my coming out about being HIV positive. I used that at the first AIDS walk for New Zealand, so I knew that I'd get media coverage for that. I knew that it could possibly have a huge impact on me at a UT because I had quite a senior role there. But the, um, the head of a UT approved that I could do it approved. If he knew me, he'd know that I would have done it anyway. But never mind. Um, [00:35:00] so I never got discrimination externally, but internally, um, there's a lot of gay guys that would not talk to me. Um, and even today, I think there's there's still there's still some guys there who are probably dealing with their own diagnosis or maybe have got a a little sort of question mark in their mind that they're positive. And I'm probably just too far too much in their face. So and, you know, let me explain something to you that happened about two years ago. [00:35:30] And this is when um, queen of the whole universe was really at the forefront and was doing exceedingly well. I had a particular member of our community, a very well known member of our community who said, Oh, I think you should start cutting back on some of your, um, media and your exposure because you're sending the wrong message. I said, What do you mean? He said, Well, you're an openly out gay HIV man, and you're sending a message to our community that people grow and develop through HIV positive status. And I thought I don't believe that. [00:36:00] I don't believe that somebody would say that to me. Um, this person didn't understand just how strong I was the fact that I would turn that around and use it, But to be told by somebody in my community, tone it down, you're giving the wrong message that it's OK to be HIV positive and people actually grow and develop because of it. That was pretty damning, but a really good example of where you can get prejudice from within our community. And how did you respond to that by over, exposing myself even more. [00:36:30] Up until then, I'd actually gone fairly quiet, like for about five years. Six years after my diagnosis. I I did a lot of HIV fundraising a hell of a lot about. I think I raised about half a million in about a 5 to 6 year period and I I did so many different events. I became the chairman of the AIDS Foundation, the first HIV positive chairman of the AIDS Foundation, and I was prepared to put my face out there and say I was positive, you know, this is a really strong message. The [00:37:00] chair of the foundation is HIV positive. So II, I really put myself out there for about 7 to 8 years and then in the last four or five years I've just really toned it back. I've gone. I haven't gone underground. I just don't make a big deal out of it anymore. There's a lot of new people out there that are diagnosed who can, who can, who can talk on behalf of anybody or everybody? That's HIV positive. So I didn't feel as though I needed to do it anymore. That drive for doing an amazing [00:37:30] amount of fundraising, Uh, where did that come from? I think the drive to do the fundraising came. There was there was only one thing that really caused me to do that. And that was because of the the huge support of the Burnett Centre New Zealand AIDS Foundation, Burnet Centre gave me and and gave to Gary that I just felt as though I just had to give back and um, there was no doubt in the first two or three years that [00:38:00] was my drive and then after that I then realised. Actually, I'm really good at this, and I'm actually really enjoying this. And in fact, this is a little bit about what I wanted to do. When I first left school, it was about arts and event management, so I was almost going back to what I was wanting to do when I was 19. And here I am, you know, a lot, a lot older, really enjoying and working in an area that was project management and arts arts focused. So I think [00:38:30] that's what then became the driving force for it. And if I look at it today, that's still my driving force. Today is the fact that I'm doing something amazing that's in the arts. But I'm also now being paid for it as well, you know, through my own company. And when you look at a lot of the events that you have done, especially things like the queen of the whole universe, a big part of it seems to be, um, a lot of positive energy, a lot of self esteem and confidence, and getting people out there on stage is that Is that a big thing for the queen of the Universe? I think [00:39:00] that the Queen of the whole universe has has got the There's so many reasons for it, and I think it's become even more clearer now that we're into our into our seventh year, 9th 9th show. That queen of the whole universe is very much about showcasing our community and showcasing our community in a really positive way. And I think back to something like the Hero Parade, which was very, very success successful. And it really did showcase who we were, [00:39:30] even though maybe the general, the straight community sort of mocked sometimes, you know, we still have 253 100,000 people coming to watch it. So for me it's about showcasing our community and presenting it in a really, really positive way. I. I really wanted to show the general community as well that we can work together, that we are a united group of people that that a show [00:40:00] like this can be put on on an annual basis that does illustrate to people the talent, the talent, the raw talent as well that we've actually got within our community and the other. The other major thing for for me, for this show was naturally about is about raising awareness for HIV and AIDS. You know that that's a major thing. OK, it's not in your face, but that's the way I've always operated. You know, we don't need to be standing there pushing this message down people's throat, [00:40:30] but people know why it's there. And we have little subtle things throughout the stage throughout the show that just remind people what this event is about. OK? And yes, we've raised. We've raised a lot of money. We've raised what, just over 100 and $70,000 over a period since 2004 when when I started the show, it was about the need, my need to put on a theatrical show, and again, this is taking me back to when I was 19. This is what I wanted [00:41:00] to do at 19, and here I am, you know. And I am my fifties doing what I wanted to do 30 for 30 years previously, and it was actually about putting on a huge theatrical event and and and getting the chance to do this at Sky City, et cetera, et cetera. But it was one of my real main motivators, but What's what's really happened over the years is the fact that it's now become a platform for taking people from our community. Who wants to who want to give [00:41:30] a have a go at at dancing, Want to have a go at doing drag? Although I don't like to use the word drag for the show, I'll explain it to you later about being with a group of like minded people being with a group of other gay and lesbians, transgender, bisexual, all working for the same goal, the same purpose, which is to put a show on. And what I've seen now is that we we have 18 19 year olds who join the cast. I see 55 65 year olds join the cast. [00:42:00] Some of these people have only just come to terms with being gay. Um, some of them they don't know who to look up to. They don't know how to how to live, how to be gay. And when you get these 18 and 19 and 20 year olds coming into the cast and see a group of people, male and female, all ages, all working together, you see this sort of look on their face Where Oh my God, is this what our community is also about? It's not just about having a drink at a gay bar. [00:42:30] It's not about necessarily going to a sauna. This is actually about being a group of people, all working together for this one cause. And to watch that and to watch their self-confidence and their self esteem grow over a three month period and then to see them on stage and after the show is huge amount of satisfaction for me, no matter how good that show is, how much the audience has enjoyed it. The look on these people's faces on that stage when that curtain goes down, [00:43:00] is where I get my satisfaction. Where did the idea come from? In 2002, I saw a documentary which was based in either Los Angeles or San Francisco. I think it was Los Angeles, and it was called Quest for the Crown, and it was about a group of guys who every year get together the same group of guys who get together and compete for the crown, and this was a fundraiser for HIV A. I DS in in California and they were raising, sort of like [00:43:30] $1 million from the show, huge amounts of money, something we could never, ever, ever copy in New Zealand. And I saw snippets of the show of this documentary, and it was so cleverly filmed, so cleverly filmed that they focused on three or four people and you didn't realise they were the three or four people that went through as the final at the end of the show. And I was sitting there thinking, Oh, I am just so loving this This has just got so many good elements in it. This is [00:44:00] not just about drag. This is a theatrical show. It's a theatrical cast musical, and I'm sitting there and, um, my my partner is on the other side of me, you know, Buffy and Bimbo, both of us together. Sitting behind me was a couple of really well known drag queens, and I turned around to one of them. I said, I'm gonna do this and they said, Are you? I said, Yes, I will do this and they said, We will be in it. You do it, we'll be in it. So I thought, right, [00:44:30] What will work what won't work in a New Zealand market. For example, they do this huge opening extravagance, and they've got about 50 drag queens for a better word. Cast members dressed in drag, and, um, after that opening extravaganza, they're all basically kicked off, disqualified, kicked off and you're left with five people. So you only you only do the opening extravaganza. Then you're gone. And I'm thinking, that's not gonna work. That's not gonna work for our for our market. [00:45:00] If I want to buy people into this, I need to change the show. So I thought, Right, I need to get these contestants on board. I need to keep them till the end of act one. Then I'll get rid of them. Then we'll take most of them through to Act two, maybe a few red hearings. So I spent two years writing this, putting the concept together, thinking about the music, battling with that for around the music, Um, getting sponsorship on board and one of the one of the key things for me when it came [00:45:30] to came to sponsoring the show, and I and I didn't want to put it on stage until I knew I had sponsorship because I did not want to put at that stage the AIDS Foundation at risk because they were going to take the liability because it wasn't coming out of my company at that stage. So I had to be totally risk adverse and I had to be risk averse to the AIDS Foundation. So I had to have the sponsorship and what I'd seen over all these years of doing fundraising was that we were continually going to organisations [00:46:00] for the pink dollar. We were always going to the gay and lesbian run organisations or gay friendly and I thought I can't I. I don't want to do this. I want to go to a different market. I've got to go to the corporate market or to the national companies throughout New Zealand and get the money from them, which I did so that first show There was hardly any pink dollar in that in that show at all, and that and that's been my philosophy for the last seven years. [00:46:30] So when I first presented this concept to the AIDS Foundation, the CEO said no, I don't think this show will produce the money it needs to to produce. And I think the liability is too high and I'd base I based it on the Bruce Mason Centre, in which is a small theatre, because I had contacts there and then, um, this was unbelievable. Six months later, [00:47:00] I have a meeting with the new CEO Rachel and, um, she said, Look, I know you're doing lots of fundraising events blah, blah, blah, blah. So she confirmed World AIDS Day that I was doing street collection I was doing. She said, Have you got anything else on the back burner? I said, Well, actually, I got this little old show called Queen of the Whole Pacific back then, and, um, I'd really like to put it on and she said, Tell me about it and I told her, She said, Can you make it a run? Even I said Yes. She said, Can you guarantee there won't be a loss? I said yes. She said, Do it. [00:47:30] I got home at 12 o'clock at two o'clock. This is at two o'clock. The woman who used to run the Bruce Mason Centre had moved to Sky City Theatre. She rang me and she said, I remember six months ago, you came to me with a show concept. Is it still on? I said, Um, yeah, two hours ago. It's on, she said. Right. Sky City Theatre and Sky City Corporation would like to work with you to put this event on. And we'll sponsor [00:48:00] the venue for you for three nights. And, wow, I don't believe it. So that's how it started. So that was That was at the beginning of 2004 that I got an offer from Sky City. So I went to Sky City. I had the meeting. I had to have the meeting that afternoon. So this all happened on a day signed a contract. And that's basically how Queen of the whole Pacific was born. And one of the problems I had leading up to the event and also getting the sponsorship was [00:48:30] was that there was still a lot of question marks around the validity of hero and and what happened with the demise of hero. And there were a number of events that went belly up. There was the parade that went belly up, and there was a lot of questions about what actually happened. And, you know, the publicity was not good. Whether or not the publicity was right or wrong, I don't know. I wouldn't go there. So when it started to actually look at getting funding for it, I was being questioned all the time about, you know, Is this secure? Is it financially liable? Uh, where will the money be going? [00:49:00] Um, is there a trust account for the money, That type of thing. So I was actually having to deal with a lot of negativity around around the publicity around previous events so that that had caused some problems. Anyway, the event happened, and this was in September 2004. And at that stage, I wasn't involved in M seeing. And I remember the show was ready to go. And I was sitting at the back of the theatre and I was watching people coming in, and there was some predominant people from our community coming in, and all of a sudden [00:49:30] I had this hot flush and thinking, Oh, heaven forbid, I'm going to be really judged, You know? There's hero people here, heroes gone. Um, and I felt really, really nervous. It was a really, really horrific moment for me. but the other thing that I noticed and this was a packed out theatre. We had people queuing to get tickets. They couldn't get in. But what I noticed in the audience was it was predominantly straight. And, [00:50:00] um, even to this day, I still find this really, really fascinating that 65 to 70% of our audience space would be heterosexual. So you've got a pro, predominantly a heterosexual audience. But on stage, it's very, very gay on stage. So and that really hit me. And I'm thinking, Is this sort of like People can't go to the hero parade? So they are now perceiving that this is a This is another avenue that we can come and watch the gay community [00:50:30] on stage, and I've never forgotten that point. I've always held that point, and I've always been sure. I've always been sure that the show keeps a little bit of that camp a little bit of that hero surprise because it's obvious that's what the heterosexual audience want. On the Monday after the show, the show was on a Saturday night on the Monday after the show, my sponsors rang me, never heard, never heard this before rang me and said we loved it. We want to help you out bigger next year and I thought Wow, [00:51:00] I then get a phone call from the edge and they operated their community programmes through the a centre through the A SB Theatre. They said we'd really like this event to be part of our community programmes. Can you come in and talk to me? I'd realised immediately that the show had to grow. It did actually have to leave Sky City, which was really sad because they were the ones that really gave it to me That really got queen of the whole universe off the ground off the ground. So I went to the AAA centre to the edge and [00:51:30] had a meeting with them and yeah, the the following year, 2005, we changed the name to queen of the whole universe because we had to go bigger and we we became part of the community programme uh which was huge, which meant I got a lot of support from the edge which then came under Auckland City Council. So is the show now run as a trust as a collective or is it you as an individual. The the the way the show is is is set up, which [00:52:00] is my company owns the trademark. So QWU was trademarked. I couldn't trademark queen of the whole universe because you can't trademark the word queen worldwide. So QWU the symbol which has become the logo. The brand is definitely registered and it's copyrighted. The show is copyrighted, and I own the IP on it. What I decided to do last year to make sure that we're totally transparent, [00:52:30] which I always have been, was to set up the queen of the whole universe charitable trust. So that trust actually contracts a ment to put that show on. They take the liability, they take the profit and there'll be a lot of people out there who will be thinking, Yeah, if gets paid. The last three years, the has not been paid one single cent. Nor have I. Um, so this is something that my company offers to the trust on a fundraising sponsorship level. And I think the other [00:53:00] thing a lot of people don't understand, in fact, that this didn't really hit me until March of last year, when I was the um, organisation of the month. When I got up and spoke, most people see me and automatically think I'm queen of the whole universe and I'm bimbo from Buffy and Bimbo and that's my life. And it was really interesting when I set up, stood up as the company of the month and said, Jonathan, I'm with the Queen of the whole universe is [00:53:30] 5% of my time the rest of the time. These are all the events that I do in the general community and there was a shocked look on people's faces. My God, he's more than just queen of the whole universe. And he's more than just bimbo or just a bimbo. Um, he's actually got a really, really successful event management company, and I actually got work from that. It was very, very interesting. I got a lot of work from it, So yeah, the trust just they contract us. So the trust is the one who actually takes the liability. [00:54:00] Do you have any thoughts on the whole idea of kind of collective energy to to make something happen, you know, like either as a um, a committee or an individual? If Queen of the whole universe had been done as a collective, it probably would have closed in 2005, 2006. You would have had a lot of people, all with their own thoughts, their own private agendas, trying to lead the show without [00:54:30] a clear direction. The way I run this show, I run it really, really tight. I make all the decisions. I don't ask for people's opinions because if you ask a group, let's put this into context. The show with with cast and crew is about 100 and 30 people on the night. It's huge, huge cast and crew. So what I don't do is I don't ask people for their opinions, and people now understand that, and people are actually OK with it because they understand what directing [00:55:00] is. And I go in there and I direct my biggest support and where I get all my, um, um, judgmental comments. And I say that in a really lovely way. Um is for my partner, Um, and Kevin is also a trustee of the of the queen of the whole universe. Um, trust. He's a person who would actually say no. Yes, no Yes. Have you thought of this? Have you thought of that? And there are a few people in the cast who I actually listen to as well, because I do understand theatre. [00:55:30] So no I, I think if I had, if I had worked in a slightly more democratic way, I don't think this would have lasted. And and I don't want that to sound, um, bigheaded or controlling in any way whatsoever. But, um, I knew that this show was successful. I needed to protect it. And And I think the defining factor here is I had to operate it as a business, and it is operated as a business no different to any other event that I would do for any other client. [00:56:00] However, in saying that the show would not be where it is today if it wasn't for the collective support of the cast and the crew without them, we don't have a show. And I've got people who have been on the show since 2004, and they've not missed one single show. I've got people that come and do one show and leave. Maybe they came. They did it for a particular reason they were fulfilled and they left. Um, I normally know why most people come into the show. I don't discuss that with any [00:56:30] other cast member. Somebody might actually be dealing with their sexuality. They want to work with a group of gay men or gay and lesbians. And they do that because they know it's a safe environment because we do not put up with any nonsense whatsoever. They know it's a safe environment. They come in, they feel good. Then they leave because they think that I think they've discovered who they are and they understand themselves more. I I've got I've had guys come in who are who are cross dresses that normally dress as women in the in the confines [00:57:00] of their bedroom at home with their wife and their wife will say, If you want to go on the show, do it. It's really safe. You're on stage, you're being cast into the role as a woman. I don't mind you doing it. So I've had a number of cross dressers that have come in and done it, and their wives have been sitting in the audience and they've been really excited and proud of their partners. So the show's worked at so many different levels. So but without the cast and the crew and that huge positive attitude and that and their commitment, the show wouldn't be where it is [00:57:30] today. No doubt, no way. A number of times you've mentioned drag and you've kind of screwed up your face a wee bit. Why why is that? What's what's with that word? The word The word drag has been an interesting one, because when I go out for sponsorship for funding and I use the word drag, people just switch off immediately. Um, and I don't know why it Maybe they've had a bad experience. Maybe they think drag is is about going to family [00:58:00] bar and seeing a drag queen perform, which is fine, you know, And I'm I'm not putting drag down, you know? Hello. I'm a drag queen myself. It's about taking it at a very different level, and I don't want people to think, Oh, well, I could go into a nightclub and and buy a drink and see a drag show. What people needed to understand was that this was a theatrical musical show where we cast people in different roles, and some of those people are cast [00:58:30] as women women playing a drag queen. So I needed to get people to understand that the whole the entirety of the show is a theatrical extravaganza. And it's not just based on drag queens. Now, if you look at Act two, which is the most demanding part of the whole show, Act two is three or four or five guys dressed in drag, competing for the crown. Some of them will do a very typical drag [00:59:00] piece. Others will take a very, very artistic, theatrical look at the country they're representing and put something quite different together, which is not drag based. For example, if you look at Miss France, who won last year, her piece is, um, is very comic. It's very bright, but I wouldn't call it draggy at all. I would call it a theatrical piece. If you look at somebody like Owen, who's played Miss Morocco. Um, Miss Oz, there's Barbie Prawn. [00:59:30] Um, again. She comes from the New Zealand School of Ballet, and she was with the ballet company for years. So what he does when I say she when I say he what he does is very, very theatrical. I wouldn't necessarily call it drag. And that's why I need people to understand This show is beyond drag, and I don't say that in a negative way whatsoever. Where do you get your positive energy from? I mean, you you just seem to be this, like, bundle of kind of positive, forward [01:00:00] moving energy that sparkles. Where do I get my positive energy from, Um, when I when I'm talking about Queen of the whole universe, Um, it's easy for me to be positive and and and and and excitable because I I feel so passionate about it and and for me, every every show brings a new challenge for me. I. I have to think of a new design, a new concept, new music, um, new styles so [01:00:30] that that's where my excitement comes from and also to see the pleasure on the audience's face and to see the pleasure on the cast and the crew's face. That that that's for me about achieving at a real high level. But it's me being 19 again. It's me doing what I wanted to do when I was 1920 but in a totally different way. I. I suppose I perceive myself when I was 19 or 20 as being an actor, whereas now I'm at the front being the director plus OK myself [01:01:00] and Kevin, Buffy and Bimbo MC. So there's a lot of acting in there as well. So I I'm really where I was. That's where I wanted to be as a child. It was where I was at 19, and I didn't even know who I was. I didn't know I was gay, and I think that well, you know, here I am 57. Look what I'm doing. And I think a lot of it's got to do with the fact that, you know, this is 16 years since I was diagnosed. I I'm still alive and you know that that's huge for me. [01:01:30] Yeah, that's I I'm a firm believer that I've got to live every week, every month, every year, as if as if it could possibly be my last and, um, I I just try and get as as much as I can out of it and get as much as I can out of people becoming HIV positive. And I don't want this to be sending a wrong message has been a positive thing for me. It's really sorted me out who I am as a person. It's really grounded me. It's really focused me. Um And in no way am I sending [01:02:00] a message to anybody to be infected because please don't. I'd rather not be HIV positive. No way would I do I want to stay positive. But I am, um but it it actually has been very, um, enlightening for me in in many ways.

IRN: 140
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ATL REF: OHDL-003886
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089180
TITLE: Aunty Wai Mason profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Aunty Wai Mason
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; Auckland; Aunty Wai Mason; Gay Auckland Business Association (GABA); HIV / AIDS; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Warren Lindberg; health; profile
DATE: 31 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Aunty Wai talks about being a kaumatua for the NZ AIDS Foundation.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Uh, uh, [00:00:30] uh um uh [00:01:00] um in the years, um, that I held here in in this on this earth I was born into, um, a tribe of, uh, and in the morning of Tauranga and Judy and went to Bethlehem native school and went to [00:01:30] college and girls college and then came to to because there was no, um, teachers, training, college or university. And I was pursuing education with early child care. And, um, later on, um, worked in primary school and intermediate and secondary school and became a secondary school When, um, my two Children were born and we lived with my husband [00:02:00] in the wild west of Auckland. And, um, it was there that, uh I also worked with the, um, community law service with working with the justice system and being a worker for, um our young people who are at risk. And also, uh, Nick, um, Nick Brown, who was the, uh, judge for the Henderson [00:02:30] Court. And he asked and required that I become his court report writer and then worked with those, um inmates as well by being the first educator within the maximum security and medium security prison teaching the Maori inmates and those who were incarcerated but majority and specifically Maori. And then and um 1989. I [00:03:00] won the profession after, uh, education in prison at the university, uh, Auckland University of Technology. And it was there. And, um, 1989 and 1990 Where, uh, my colleague and all the, um um we've been harassed literally by the big boys club who were both [00:03:30] management level and who ran the university. So there's a type of grief that was going on there, and I thought, Well, I can't work with who agree there. I needed to intervene. And my intervention was to say, Change your attitude towards what's happening. Do not fight the fight. But what you've got to do is build up a resistance and be resilient. And to prove to the colleagues that have been disrespectful to you and and your [00:04:00] manner, um, then uphold yourself and and be proud of who you are. And I would act as your in intervention person to intervene and to also, um, go straight to Doctor um, Hench Cliff at the time who was the head of the university and because he was a Christian person who had served in the community and, uh, um looked at the injustices of humanity throughout and [00:04:30] always preached it or even used it within his lecturing or his deliveries. And I thought, he's a good man that will be able to, um, help us to sustain the dignity and the manner in each human person, regardless of their sexuality or their indifference towards the life that they But they are intellectual people within the system of education. And that's what we must look at the gifts that they have so slowly. [00:05:00] The changes came about, and it was in 1991. I said, Let's get together As a farmer, you can't work is in isolation. If you were to ask me what is the greatest gift in this world, I have to tell you, it is people. If people, if people it's not a person, it's people. So therefore we have to change [00:05:30] the attitude of and work as a collective group to reinforce and to, um, have people here. What do you have to say? Because we we're not listening. We're just talking past each other. What? What kind of hardships were they encountering? They they were under the Treaty of Waitangi. And they were teaching that treaty because all of the the the gay women had gone to classes [00:06:00] to learn about the Treaty of Waitangi. Because the partnership is is and also, um, the crown And who are the crown? It's the people who at the time signed the treaty, so they had learnt it. And they were trying to, um, bring back the, um, injustices and the qualities that needed to be looked at. And it was being overridden by those [00:06:30] people who were men and mainly, um, who belonged to the Big Boys Club. And, well, you can you know the rest. And so to change that attitude, we had to change the structure of what our thoughts were and mine was always to be taught by my nanny to You're more powerful if you work for everybody, has their and their and we don't cross paths. But we get together and work out strategically how we're going to do it, who [00:07:00] will do it and then when we're going to do it and monitor it shows we have an outcome. And that was all of my teachings from my nanny and I implemented that same structure because they were the things that I come with. That was my knowledge, both my So I worked with that and then it should work. They began to see changes. So once we got the group together with the staff or the staff [00:07:30] with what doesn't matter what nationality or what Ethnic group or culture, you belong to the main. Although we are, it doesn't matter who the person is. It is. We still come under the I'll be, um but I bet proverbial phone. So we held on to that. I find it really interesting. It's an interesting idea [00:08:00] that you change your own ideas and your own mindset first, to to overcome a problem that may not be yours, but it's human problem. So it must be mine because we are first and foremost born into a family of the humankind and we make a connection. We have a which means we are born into the and we have a relationship because of that new fact [00:08:30] that we are human. So who am I to, um, to do nothing else but to get on with it and time so short that you know, the strategic planning for me, and I learned that from my nanny is that if you see that something is incorrect, you correct it. But you use your skills to collectively get together, talk face to face, not [00:09:00] on pen and paper and all these wonderful technology things or other ways of communicating, Um, and to communicate any person to person and you speak what's in your gut For a woman, it's what's in the inner inner depth of her womb. Because of you, if you're in this to a child, you're the only one that feels the pain, the last push when the or the dog say push, you know that pain [00:09:30] and it's a wonderful pain, but it can be overcome and with a male or then the same sort of things. Um, because we complement each other, and that's the other thing we have to change. Males have a job to do. Women have a job to do, and they complement each other. How did they compliment? Because that's why God created the mouth fish. And he knew the male was very lonely. So he created the [00:10:00] and within the mouth it the sperm that creates life and in the female. It's the egg, and you have that with all living things that God created. So what's the difference? There ain't no difference. How does fit into that and fit to it? Because they are a farmer of the humankind. My to every human person is my relationship because we have two eyes, two ears, our body, our soul. We [00:10:30] have all the elements that a bear and we have all the the things that make us tick. And it's a fight, and the only thing that's different is the culture that you infiltrate it with when you're brought up as a person as a partner. So all I ask people to do is just respect. Have respect, the word respect what me when you respect yourself. You would like to be treated the way you want to be respected by other simple [00:11:00] and are just a label. But she said, Well, you fit into this label. I said, Listen, that person is my I have a relationship with him because first and foremost he was born into the humankind. So I don't see anything outside of the philosophy and a very deep philosophical way that I've been taught by my nanny, [00:11:30] so there's no discrimination. Discrimination comes with me with people who have phobia, phobic ideas and torch because of the way they've been taught. But I can still unravel all those in a few moments time and say, Auntie, why do you wear the red ribbon? And I physically I I to turn and say, Well, I think it's the first in the world that humans wore and it's a ribbon of hope. [00:12:00] It's hope for you. It's hope for me because we're humans And they said, Well, what does it indicate? And I said, What is the indication? The foundation with those people who have contracted the HIV virus AIDS and it's hope that they would live in the earlier days as early as when I first started in 1990 91 and onwards, when I worked with [00:12:30] and had the privilege to meet all those of our Maori men. I speak mainly of Maori because they were the community I worked with. I actually um was pretty to them, letting me into their world. They had come home to die. They had contracted the HIV virus. They had been sexually involved with males of other land. And these men that came back had sexual, [00:13:00] um, men that had contracted the virus in Australia and in the other countries that had come. But mainly the ones we work with are the ones who Australia, because the Maori knows when the body is deteriorating and they always from home. The is to always come home to the to your place, where you stand your feet and where your are and those who have gone before you to come back and to die [00:13:30] and be buried amongst your own people. That is the so when they came back and I learned I began to learn and to learn means that I needed to educate myself that what this is all about because I didn't look at what they were. I just looked at. They were farmer, they come home and they come into my care with time. I did something about them. So what I did was actually started with which is a prayer [00:14:00] and Maori, because in their brain Maori, the language that they had learned and then doesn't matter that they've forgotten about it. But the brain is like a computer. When you call back and recall, then comes forward. Then you you can guarantee So, Um, once I did that and I worked with the with the families and the partners, especially because the partners of [00:14:30] culture of other culture but the was and it was to talk to them and say The first thing we will do is to get together, have and to express and explain first how, how the evening or how the day would go. And so everyone's on the same page rowing the same waka at the same beat and the same time. And to me, that's part of the knowledge that I've been given from my nanny to express to people quite clearly what you're [00:15:00] going to do and how you're going to do it and why you're going to do it. If there are any questions, that's the time to ask. But at the same time, we ask that everybody, um, have respect for the process that we're going to go through. And, um, there was no no Christian, no crime, no nothing. And they accepted it because what I was trying to do is to feed the which has been washed. The waiter in the in the depth of the the two waters that run [00:15:30] the spiritual water that creates all humankind and the water that brings us out as a mother. There is the water, and she's ready to give birth to her child. The water and the string allows humankind to come to the They have two men in water men in two waters, and it's a simple explanation my name had taught. Taught me everything is so simple that, um, it's other people's way of thinking and thought, and it complicates [00:16:00] things. And I'm not one to complicate no one because I cannot like and, um, if if people are not sure about it, then we have another go. But repetitious teaching is how I begin to do perform everything that I do. And, um uh, the idea also was to ask to the, um, people who had the virus at the time. Where would they like their body to lie? And and they need to come [00:16:30] straight here, Do your farm know that you have contracted the virus? No, they say, Do you want them to know? And so that was the process to go through and whatever. Whatever answer they had. Then they had this negative thought because it's fear and then managed to turn it around and say, That's here It's good to be fearful. I is [00:17:00] the word in Maori. When you have it's that to be quite feel, it's just to caution you as a human being, to just be a little bit careful how you and how you move forward. And that's important. So we have we have man. Man is the power, as you know that we all have. We're born with it and then the that we have. We're all born with that. But the is a very important part as well. The then begins [00:17:30] to react once the body that is dead declared dead and can't function at all. Then the rises from the dead and have another job to do and another space to go to. Um once I explained to everybody that they said, Oh, Auntie, we want more so continuously, Um, I played a virtue. And if if they got they didn't know because of the pain [00:18:00] that they were going through, then I'd say, Look, your pain is in your mind. Every pain and every human being is created by the mind. So you have to keep your mind to say How much pain do you want to take? If you have pain, you will get pain. If you say you want to die, you will die. Then your body will deteriorate and all your organs in your body will stop functioning. Is that what you want? Oh, hell no. [00:18:30] I said, Well, she up, man or bloody shit. And I should be a bankrupt because to me, I just words that are not mine. But if it's effective, then I will use them. There are only adjectives to describe a situation as far as I'm concerned. Um, but there's a car. And then and then when the time comes and then I say you have to plan your for The whole [00:19:00] family needs to get together and support you and say, OK, I will do that. Uh, what do you want? Do you have to have her music and have wonderful music? And I don't care what sort of music you have. It's your time. It's your farewell. I said you think about it and you come up with some ideas. And I agree that your next week to do it. So the shorter time you give to people that she now in pain and they know they are in that, um, situation, [00:19:30] it can lead to be a relationship. But to me, it's not. The mind is still there. I think your mind and your intellect is the most wonderful gift God given. Because he gave it to us last because of his creation. Why didn't he give it to all the other things that he created? He gave it to us because he wanted to be creating humans like his own image So we can have a thought. So we can then begin to plan. We can begin to do things. And we had choices [00:20:00] because he made the choice to go where you are, where you are now. But you can get out of it because you had the mind to do it. And I'm grateful to my nanny because she taught me how to use the power of mind because, um, yeah, just a little example. I was born a heart patient, and, uh um Then when I was stressful, um, then she just calm me down and speak to me, and then I teach me how to use my mind [00:20:30] to say, Take your mind to a safe place A nice, warm place, a nice place that you want to be And it was always on top of my mother's grave because she died early and I used to fall asleep and cry there and then and I could feel going right through the inner depth to the bones of my whole system and so I to take myself there. So I created that to no, for all the men who had the virus and people, even now, who are sick. [00:21:00] And I have to create that for yourself and have a wonderful time with it. Go away with the the It's wonderful. Could you tell me about Ian Kahi? Yeah. Um I is, uh, of background, And, um, his mother is from up the very far north, and, uh, and she, [00:21:30] uh, he came to Auckland, Uh, after attending college to, um, train as a primary school teacher. And when he came at the time, um, the training college used to be in the North Shore North shore. Um, and he met my sister Catherine, and they trained together and then at the same time there's two years training, [00:22:00] Uh, towards the second year, they had to close the, um, North Shore campus down and send all the students to the Auckland Teacher training College in. And, um, who worked with my sister because, um, she was teaching at several schools and they met up together again at the intermediate, which is in [00:22:30] and there. He became a student teacher under her guardianship because she was a year ahead of him, and they became very good friends. And, uh, they used to come to our home because my husband and I and my two Children had, uh, built a home in And, uh, they used to come and because my sister needed help as well with, um, work with she brought in along. And that's how we push me. [00:23:00] And, uh, we found out that his is the same as my Children. Father, uh, the family are from, um, South as and and Ian's father is from there as well. So there was a of a connection. And because he is older than my two Children, um, we just address each other as, um as an uncle and [00:23:30] and my daughter and my son, his niece and nephew. So, um, that that started after, uh, many years of teaching. I decided that, um he wanted to look further a field for, uh, another vocation. And, um, he spotted the advertisement for a Maori worker, uh, with [00:24:00] the foundation. And at this time he applied for this job. And, uh um, because I've been a helping them and him and my sister. Then he addressed me as auntie and, um, of course, I I My job was to just to go and support him with his application and, um, going through and talking a little bit about what the job [00:24:30] description was and being the first Maori, um to represent and the whole of New Zealand at that time. The main objective of that position was to help, um, and to go out and educate people in the Maria. So the that was the whole idea. They done it. Maori focused, held on the marae throughout [00:25:00] the mocha. So was this the first time that this job do you know what year that was in 91? At the same time I was at the track A and, uh, 91 was the year that he applied for the position and he won it. And I went to support him in his, um, interview, uh, with Warren. Um oh, I can't remember [00:25:30] Warren's name now. And he who Who was the head of the AIDS Foundation? Yes, that's right. That's Warren. And then, um, I went along once. He, um, got the decision. I also went along to support him with his, um uh, the initiation and the training that he went through. Because if I was to support him, uh, my [00:26:00] feeling was I need to know what the profession, how and what help I could give. And, um, anyhow, that's just me. I just support anybody, want to make a commitment, And, uh, yeah, so we had our orientation and that I was part of that. And in the way of speaking, I think, um, the first reaction was one of culture shock for the organisation, especially those people on the panel and, [00:26:30] um, training as well. And But I didn't worry, Warren, because it was more important back then, you know, he had put out the position with other and one from input. When you say culture shock, can you give some examples of what the culture shock is. Quite, um, a specific one. Because for too long the organisation had run just with, um [00:27:00] uh as I call it, middle class people. And, um when I, uh um then I needed to know because I've done a whole lot of work with bicultural and the treaty of and those issues around it. And I was quite clear that Article two is to say that we need to um, no, uh, the of ownership of [00:27:30] and running things our way. And, uh although we had partners and it hadn't been done before with the Indonesian Aid fund and other organisations as well, um, that is a culture shock. I talk about that Everybody hadn't the mindset to really think out quite clearly what should that things should partnership work under because they had no modelling to be there to the organisation. [00:28:00] So it was thanks to Warren who he saw the vision. He put it out there and became very much a part of, um, supporting I and the work that, uh was ahead of them and those are the sort of things Also, it's just trial and error and uh, um And then with the input from, uh, for [00:28:30] myself and others because I relied on my own resources in the community. Um, and because I have a good knowledge of who is in which is and had worked with out in the West Auckland and and knew most of the because of my, um, background and and working with the, um, [00:29:00] as an educator, uh, in secondary school and green high school, where II I worked in was still very much involved with the community work. So, um uh, so we put forward, you know, a few things that could happen. And like I say, um, what worked, worked? What didn't work still had to be worked out Because you need time and timing. Three years [00:29:30] is not enough this year. You're just knowing the community and getting what your strategic plans would be out there. So but because of the, um, newness of the profession and given that, um, uh, it's a a unique community that a lot of things had to be pierced through [00:30:00] and quietly worked at. And that's the strategy I chose to use work with the people you know first, and then do a lot of corridor and a lot of question asking and and at the same time I could find out all the questions that the community were asking. And so we we made it safe for you. And, uh, most of the phobic ideas that humans had at the time that they were with because, like all humans, [00:30:30] if you don't know knowledge, then you are up frightened. And, uh, that was cool. But, um, with working out and having our community with, um, we were able to get the issue with building, uh, here in Auckland and that became our centre for all of us to live with and gather together and under the the, [00:31:00] um and and that we have a relationship and to each other. Um, and there was nothing else I didn't even think about, you know, very diverse, diverse, unique book. Because to me, if you go back to that same, what is the most important thing? So, um, [00:31:30] for the film and it was good, then a lot of the people within the, um organisation with Warren and all those who who were there, then began to think, Oh, what's so bad after and a lot of the things just sort of fell into place. And so we were able to work together, not against each other, but still giving Ian, um, [00:32:00] space to say this is strategic plan. If is the correct way of behaving in a given situation, then the opposite of that is which is incorrect. So, um, and using those, uh, things that I've learned from my nanny, Uh, they were very basic things, and I felt there was a safe way to go rather than get into confrontation or, um, to [00:32:30] have debates around why and why not? And who she is so and so on and so forth. So it worked. So our family began to grow and Ian was able then to contact all the with and that was his main object. I said, No, we start with a first. Is those people who your position is saying now that you are going to be there and their leader [00:33:00] and we get them all? And of course, a great in you tell one person next minute it's just and just grab. And everybody started coming because they felt for the first time they had some space of their own that we could all get together under one. And that that is our own Maori and our own way of expression, how we should behave and them. And at that time, [00:33:30] most of the boys were, um in the in the box, up at and all over the city. So just tell one person and next minute they telling us to come on. And so I, uh, I was asking piece of questions for me to ask was to ask the organisation, What have you got to keep me safe having with men? And so they provided water, um, and get [00:34:00] it on condoms and and to be safe. So my job was to take leaders within different, um individual groups of and have a meeting with them first. And so the main here is that you've all heard about the virus and you all know certain that have come back with it or have got it. And I think there's nothing to be. What we've got to do is [00:34:30] educate our people to, um, use the condom and to be safe, the boat. And so that being an educated, that is what we started off with and They had a little room up in, uh, where they, um, used to meet or especially the transgender. Um, and it was close for them to, um to come in and we'd open, um, [00:35:00] and after hours because most of them do their work after hours and I sitting there during the day time when all of them are sleep. So that's basically and his work. And he used to pick up all the boys who had no transport, and he just had such a AAA lovely heart. And because he had been out, I don't even think he was in the cloth of the ball because [00:35:30] his mother told you his mother and his two sisters are twins. They are as well. And, you know, being the youngest of 10 10 members in the family. A lot of his father when he was quite still a baby. And then, um, his mother supported all of the 10 Children. And, uh, yeah, and that's Ian Carter in your educational work with the AIDS Foundation. [00:36:00] What? What was the hardest part for you, I guess. Well, for me, especially, um, I've been taught that I've got to be skill that I taught me. If you do something, you research it well, you do it well and you don't look back. You look forward and nothing's been a challenging thing for me. It's just that [00:36:30] I feel very passionate about others who are less fortunate than me. And if it's in my power to make a difference in their life, then that has always been my It doesn't matter who it is and where they come from. And, uh, because I was, uh, I guess I've always been for the underdog and those who are less fortunate for any circumstance, whether they be rich. Poor. [00:37:00] Yeah. What? What comes through a lot to me is that there's a huge level of of respect and love and sharing. Well, there can be other philosophies behind that. Um um, And, uh, how do you teach respect? Um, respect is given if you are quite clear, that how whatever [00:37:30] you plan and whatever you endeavour and that is that it's correct that nobody can peer through and play and and and say, Oh, you can't do that, aren't you? You can't do whatever. Um, because I even turn those negative thoughts and ideas to be positive because I always had the mind. Oh! Oh, God, please, for good. And they know not. And I do. So I have to make a difference in teaching. [00:38:00] And I do believe in preaching. Um, because, um, I was born to be a teacher. It was my role that my nanny gave to me and, um, well, and everyone teaching me the advantage give so that And I said, No, I'm not because I know what I'm doing is correct. And if it's not correct, I then go and research and find out from the people internally. Uh, what is the mind here? What is your thought? What is your plan? [00:38:30] What's going on? Can you issue so I can learn, Learn to learn to then make a difference everything different to that person who, for some unknown reason, may have some undercurrent or underpinning point of view. Then I say to them, I respect you. I respect your thoughts and ideas because God gave us the intellect to think. And if you're still thinking about it, well, then here's [00:39:00] what I can offer then, uh, I oppose what it's the problem. Solving for me is to always try to listen first, be a good listener, have an open mind and be loving and being respectful because I want the same. Whatever that person gives to me, I demand it's a demand for me because I know it's correct. I don't want any crap. Why [00:39:30] should I? It's wasting time. So and you And for that you can do all the talking in the front. For me, it's your actions, the actions of of how you will, um, solve the problem or how you will proceed to do whatever is action that you want. And I would like to have an assessment process and the outcomes and time is [00:40:00] of the issue. I work with time. So to be a good time manager, to be able to be honest and to be respectful of others. And, uh, yeah, and those protocols of respect come with me having to quite clearly say, before we talk, I'd like to have a little kind of clear to to pave our way and to ask the Supreme Bank to give us this energy that is there so that we can accomplish [00:40:30] whatever it is that we we've got ahead above and then to get thanks afterwards and to acknowledge the person I'm speaking or the people I'm speaking, I acknowledge them. And to me, that's the respect that, um is good all the time because I practise it. And then other thing said, Oh, we're gonna have a auntie I said, Oh, that's lovely. How about you give up for she talking to a higher being and [00:41:00] concentrating on the issues that we have in front of? Oh, I see. That's never, um, you can learn how to do one. However small it is is like the green stone he could upon them he could upon them. It's just fair, fair. So that and I was teaching all those and, uh, and to the guy said, Well, if you can't say how about [00:41:30] And that's the same form of of the words that you want to choose them and teach them why they don't know. And, um yeah, but it inclusive rather than exclusive. And if you make people safe, I talk about culture safety. That is what I mean, being respectful of each other and to means to be humble. And, um, there are certain times when we're having [00:42:00] discussions that I can actually, um, get into talking about things in a positive manner rather than negative side over your time with the AIDS Foundation. Have you noticed a difference in and how they relate to the AIDS foundation and how they relate to themselves through your work? Yes, I have. It's changed at the beginning. They didn't [00:42:30] know about the Age Foundation because it was a non event. All they knew is that they were a with they were classified, as has been a person that had made the choice to be unique first and foremost. And however they behaved with it in that uniqueness, what's her right as a human person. And I acknowledge that and I've seen the change come drastic change come about, [00:43:00] um, with the respect, because before there are quite a, um what's the word is not vicious, but they do tell us red colours in their behaviour because they only know how to survive by them by mouthing off and, um, getting physical and being men. And, um, yeah, and did you get the opposite? Who are those people who pay the [00:43:30] female role and quite subdued. And, um uh, the the you know, there's there's a gentle softness in them and I watch. I've watched the development, I call it, but not not change. Humans develop, and they only develop with knowledge that they require so that they can progress forward in whatever they endeavour. And that's how I put there. Um, So, yeah, I've watched the the development [00:44:00] and I've watched 16 year old come into this organisation and, uh or and I watched them develop. And now, uh, 10 years and I use Jordan Harris as a John because he was our and I I and I started and he was sweet 16 and he was so gentle. And, uh yeah, [00:44:30] and um watched him develop over the over the years and said to him, You need to think about where you're going, There's this organisation and if you have a if there's a place for you and that I'd like you to apply for it, I'm feeling a bit shy. So we have. We practise, and we do. I do a lot of playback, [00:45:00] and I do a lot of, um, just acting out and role situation play roles and things like that until they get the plot and they're quite happy, but it's a repetitious way of teaching. And until they feel they've got it, um, they say, Look, you make a fantastic. So he went and did that, and after being, um, assistant to and [00:45:30] and then it was time for to move on. But I encouraged Children. Don't ever give up. Dream your dreams, set your goals, and then just go for it. Go. You're at I really have a shit, Ruben. So hi. Went down to to to papa, and then, um, Jordan took over in that position. He's in, uh, and [00:46:00] it's, um, because of his gentleness. He's good. Makes a good leader. I feel, you know, you don't need the big. What you need is to have to go in, and you know how to do that. And you know how to, um, upskill yourself with you're real, so it makes you more proficient in everything you do. So, um, yeah, and so now who's at the top level of the position in the organisation? [00:46:30] And, um, he is a good leader. A good leader is a leader who's quite clear in their mind that it was, and and he still comes and use a I'm just a backup. Auntie will always be there if the hard basket is too hard and it will be and make no going to be. But before auntie gives you the answers, you have a mind of your own. You need to think quite clearly [00:47:00] and, um, make sure that it's gonna work and all I do is just say, that's not Oh, no, you can do this. And so we find. And then, um it works. Is this how Nana taught you this? You learn by asking questions. You learn by making mistakes. You learn by humans do and you give it a go. Um, my nanny never gave me the answers. [00:47:30] She used to use the phrase time. The time will come when you will know. And I use that with every person that I helped along the way because what solution? They give the answers that doesn't solve their problems. Or does it make them alert to use the name to think? And that's the strategy I was [00:48:00] with. And he said, too impatient. But why? Then when is the war coming? The will come and you will know. Then you stop asking questions. Well, that must be quite tricky, though, because I mean, in this day and age where everything is so fast to actually say, Just wait. It will come that that must. I knew what she meant, but I think it clicked to me when I was [00:48:30] a teenager. I think, Ah, that why I've been so impatient and ask him when I was little because all the Children were said. But why Mummy? Why? And and the whole philosophy behind it is that at that age young age, you're really not ready to be told the answers until you actually develop your mind and and do the action yourself. So but you don't ever give up [00:49:00] trying. I said, I want your bag. I I'll I'll do it myself. And then I did the recipient of it because, well, I tried it. But it was wrong. Wasn't so, but I think that that's the philosophy of work with them. Uh, I taught so many people the same thing, and they held on to that and treasure that and tried to look at the, [00:49:30] um, the actions that they do but always give encouragement to others to, um begin to think for themselves Uh, yeah. So that's that's, um, what I've done. What's your role with the foundation? Now? Uh, the role for the foundation came about when, uh, this Rachel rat manager, um, was, [00:50:00] uh, the director. And because the boys had worked with her and when I referred to the boys who as Children there, um, positions of responsibility now that they've taken over had been created because, um, Raha had a terrific vision and she had quite specific ideas of, um, the partnership and and doing work [00:50:30] together. And she gave that space and the time for it to. And we're grateful to her, um, throughout the whole organisation, economically, show that, uh and, uh, Richard and all the older, um, they had gone through that the dark ages, as I call them, because [00:51:00] they were the first to go through and all not just the but we as well. And then they all had to fight for their survival with the police and the community just being phobic about them, what they were trying to demonstrate. And, uh, yeah, but when it comes to this, I call this another generation because, uh, then things began to change for the better. But I, [00:51:30] I actually think the older and both and for doing what they did. Now the young ones don't have to go through that anymore. Why? Because the whole world now is educated around the acceptance of the uniqueness of each individual and can express quite clearly how they feel about themselves. [00:52:00] Yeah, and so your role now at the AIDS Foundation. What is that, Um that that developed that, developed with Rachel and the farmer and had to take, um, the old and the young and Maori, especially to say no more now because they didn't make it in their times. Um, even when they had positions and the trust for Maori person [00:52:30] to go and Richard and had been involved right from the very beginning and if their cry hadn't been, um, heard. But then they still carried on because, you know, they were recipients of that sort of behaviour, and they were, uh, developing, So change had to come. And the change has come about that with most [00:53:00] modern. Now we're looking at the treasure of I have to. We are now responsible for being the partner. And what does that mean? And the internet organisations like the US and Foundation then could provide a top [00:53:30] level, um kind of were clear and clear within the and in the areas. And, um and and, um is to acknowledge of each of the areas and then the final and, uh, to always get back and acknowledge that they are [00:54:00] So, um, that has happened. And it's been an exciting time for for and, um without the tea cups I mean, you know, you had to go through all that, But when I was asked, it was the boys that chose me and they said, Oh, Auntie was been since we were 16 and would like her to come. And I was greatly on the phone. [00:54:30] Of course, I feel, you know, being with with you all these years, and, uh, I have a passion for people. And actually, um, yeah, and of course I got to do. And I asked. I asked my here, and I told him what he asked me, and he said, Well, what are you asking me for? And I said, Oh, man, [00:55:00] she is a good man for me to tell you, because you and he said, Well, you're doing the work where you go. And if you need me, I'll be here. And I guess that's a protocol as well as a risk to OK, so, um, I was chosen to do that position, and, um at the time, uh, one of the boys Jeff was asked to do, uh, because we celebrated last year 2010 [00:55:30] or 25 years of the organisation and they had plenty of celebrations, and, uh so they required a whole a whole lot of things that needed to be looked at. And so I, uh, he wrote, um, the organisation and just give a document of all the things that have happened and the Maori input as well. So he was also asked to write, um, [00:56:00] how to behave in the poor, the procedures and all the things. So he called me up and him and Jordan and said, Can you help us? I said, Certainly. So we didn't be able to just, um, put that on paper and to have it ok by the trust and have it ok by, um, the church and and began to put it into a real action because this has been going on for a long time. [00:56:30] Um when I say real action, we are now being acknowledged financially to do the work that is required. When? When you and I've been advocating that for all. No matter what organisation I've been in and and being at that level as well with the people at the they say this is it. It's not negotiable. [00:57:00] And for these reasons And, um, here are the ways about around it and how we can behave with it. And everybody, um what I say that so much so that everybody once wanted to practise. They want to do, you know upskilling themselves because it is they can part take, no matter who the no matter where we are, no matter who is being welcomed or who's been [00:57:30] out or just an acknowledgment and respect of the human person who we are performing for. Yeah. Interestingly, you you were saying about the 25th celebrations? Do you? Did you think back in 1990 when you started doing this kind of work that you would be doing similar stuff for 20 years in 20 years time? Yes, Yes, I do, because that's one of the things [00:58:00] that my nanny taught me. Whenever you make a commitment to any work that you do in the community, no matter what work you do, you make a commitment to the better end to, um to your department or you use it to teach others so that they can. No one's indispensable here to say you can die tomorrow. Somebody will take your place. But it's to teach others [00:58:30] that that's what I've tried to do with as the age groups go. Then the old teaches the young and then these ones. You are old so the next lot come and they teach and you pass The knowledge on knowledge is not hard doesn't belong to us. It belongs to the universe and it's given unconditionally. So who are we to, um, to do that? Well, Auntie Wai, thank [00:59:00] you so much for taking the time and being so generous with your time and and memories over the last little while. I, I really appreciate it. So, um yeah, Thank you. Oh, thank you, girl. So, uh, just before we finish, I just want to thank you and thank the organisation and especially where the funding has come from. And yet we were part of the function for the celebration of this year. And, um, the work [00:59:30] that that needs to be, um, to be told, needs to be written, needs to be photographed, needs to be used on modern technology. Um, because that's part of the stories, obviously, and coming forward to now and into the century. And, uh, it could be used as a learning process for, um, all who are keen to to take up the challenge for one way or another. [01:00:00] And, um yeah, so I just want to say thank you very much for your, um well, and those people who were very generous to choose me to tell my story. OK, so with that, I'd just like to finish with a and give thanks and January. [01:00:30] [01:01:00] Thank [01:01:30] you very much.

IRN: 150
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089179
TITLE: Karen Ritchie profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Karen Ritchie
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; Auckland; Cartier Trust; Gay Auckland Business Association (GABA); HIV / AIDS; Karen Ritchie; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); health
DATE: 30 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Karen talks about growing up and the Cartier Trust.
TYPE: computer generated text
TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023
TEXT: Hi. My name's Karen Ritchie. Um, I'm 50 nearly 59 years of age. And, um, for many, many years, um, I worked in the sex industry in Australia and that took me back into the eighties and nineties. Um, during that period of time, condoms and things like that weren't a necessity or necessarily used in the industry. So when HIV became, um, part of [00:00:30] our knowledge arrived on the shores, so to speak, in the eighties it became a very, very scary time. Nobody quite knew anything about it, although we knew that it was, um, sexually transmitted. That's the one thing we did know. It changed a lot of things in the sex industry, then to where we used condoms because of the fears around HIV. I had a lot of friends back in that era also who were in the gay lesbian transgender community. And so for [00:01:00] them, too, it was the unknown. And it was rather scary. And some of those people did contract the virus and died very early in the days of of being HIV positive. Um, so that was that in itself Was the stigmatisation around that was huge was just absolutely huge people would go into hospital. They were the nurses, and things were gowned up and infectious. Nobody was allowed to see them. And back then when they died, they were not, [00:01:30] um, not embalmed. Funeral directors wouldn't embalm them. They were body bagged and and closed up and gone. Um, so the stigmatisation I understand that a little bit back then because they didn't know what they were dealing with. But sadly, that stigmatisation still holds today. Not quite as fierce, but it's still there. Um, so for me, to my involvement with the gay lesbian transgender community, they were [00:02:00] the ones that accepted my lifestyle very strongly in the eighties and nineties. It was, uh, the straight community were, um, quite disgusted. A few and I've always been upfront with what I do. So, you know, it wasn't, um it wasn't accepted in that part of the community. So my friendship started back then and all through for the last. Oh, I don't know, 25 years I've involved myself in in the community and, um, found a lot of wonderful friends and and it [00:02:30] when I have a great amount of respect. So So how did you get to that point in your life where you're working in the sex industry in Queensland. Um, I had a son, and, um, when I went to Australia, I couldn't get work. It was, uh, five months before I actually, you know, got work. The Kiwis didn't have a very good name back then because they would get a job and then they'd train them or whatever and go a few months later because they were travelling, so that was very difficult. And I was working in an office back here in New Zealand, and I had [00:03:00] all references and so forth. Um, I still had a family to support and rent to pay and food to buy. And, um, I took this ad up and it was reception at a at a massage parlour of brothel. And I thought, Oh, I'll go there. So I did that. And I remember saying to the owner, um, I this is you're not expecting me to work and he said, No. I said, Well, that's good. So I took that job on Met some wonderful, wonderful ladies in the industry, Um, no different to myself as in having [00:03:30] a family supporting families and, um, of course, they were earning good money, and I thought, Oh, I can do this. So that was my transition. I jumped the fence. And, um, you know, as I say, I have no regrets in that side of my life. I think that has made me who I am today. What were the things that you took away from those experiences? Um, not to be as judgmental as probably what I could have been, Um, in the earlier days, there were people [00:04:00] in that industry for all different reasons. Um, I'm sure people are aware there are some in there that were for drugs, some of them there for supporting families. Some were in there for being bankrupt and trying to get themselves back on top again. I worked with women who came from very good families. Like I'm talking police commissioner. I'm talking all sorts of, um, families that they came from. So and, you know, in the early days, I think my son was about nine, and I said to him that [00:04:30] I'm what I'm doing actually is going off to and have dinner with people. I'm I'm That's you know, that's when you tell Children what they can accept in their little brain. And then I used to have barbecues and that round at my place. And the ladies used to come around with their families and things like that, and my son got to meet them and, you know, just they weren't just a family like we were. So as he got a bit older, then I explained to him what I was doing. He has always been fine with that. Even today at 40 I've asked him if that's ever played AAA hard [00:05:00] role in his life. And he said, No, not at all, Mum. And he's a businessman today, so I've always been straight up with with him over everything I've done. What about societal attitudes back then, how was the industry seen? God, we were disgusting. We were disgusting human beings. Um, yes, we were very much looked down upon, uh, it's it was a lot different, too. Back then, there was every possibility that you could have lost your Children. Um, they they [00:05:30] could be taken off you for the kind of life that you led. Um, so it was just you had to be a little bit careful around who you told in case somebody reported you and put you down as not a fit mother. And I was a very fit mother. Um, you know, I'd like to say that, um, my son was always my priority, and that's why I was in the industry to give him and myself a better life. So can you remember the first experience of, um, coming across HIV [00:06:00] or AIDS? Yes, I can. I had a friend in Australia that, um, contracted the virus, um, back in the eighties, and I used to sit with him regularly, you know? And we have a drink and just eat off the same plates, drink out of the same cups, all those sort of things. Our lives didn't change. You know, we were just We were friends when he became very, very unwell. Um, nobody could see him in the hospital. They wouldn't allow anybody in to see him. As I say, it was an infectious disease ward. [00:06:30] Everyone was gowned up. Closed. Um, and that was it. And and, you know, people quite often died alone back then died alone. Very, very sad. Their families, all sorts of people, just totally distanced themselves from them. So that in itself was, you know, huge. I'm I'm really glad it's not quite like that today, although there is still stigma to the point where people still feel it's a gay disease. And [00:07:00] that really irritates me because that, uh, the disease doesn't have a preference on culture or colour or sexual agenda. It doesn't have a preference. Anybody can contract the virus, the disease, so that stigma is still there. So, seeing, um, friends, uh, pass away in that very kind of isolated way How How what kind of impact did that have on you? Huge, huge impact? Because I've always come from a very close family [00:07:30] safe family, um, to where my family always knew what I was doing. Um, so for people to not have some form of support or love in that stage in their life, it really, really did and still does today make me very, very sad. Um, and that does does happen a little bit still today. Sometimes the families, you know, are not as close during that time as what they could be or should be. So that [00:08:00] did have a very, very strong impact on on on my life and and and on my sons, too. I mean, you know, as I say, he's he's very aware of what life's all about, and and, um, just to think that people have to go through that alone really does does upset me. Did some of those events, um, change your life's direction? Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I've always I've always been a person that tries [00:08:30] to give support to others in the best way I can, Um, pretty much that's been something I've I've done in my life, but it certainly had its impact. Um, when I came back to Australia to New Zealand, I fought strong and hard for law reform with, um, New Zealand prostitutes collective around making changes in the sex industry. And that, to me, was for the human rights and, um, adults to make choices that they choose to make And, um, for [00:09:00] for safety, too, so that people could negotiate safe sex so they didn't have to worry about whether it was the the police or something like that. Trying to, you know, bust them because they've got condoms and they're talking about condoms, you know, in the in the usage of sex. Um, so I I fought strong and hard for that, and I strongly believe that that was a necessity, um, of the prevention of HIV. And that happened in 2003. So we got that [00:09:30] through with, um, one vote, which, um was I was, uh, in the gallery at the time at Parliament, and I worked alongside Tim Barnett very closely with that bill. Um, so I was in parliament the night that that went through, and it was It was really, really good. And as I say, I think it's there are flaws. There's flaws in everything. You know. You can't You can't get everything right, er in a bill. But just for people to be able to negotiate condom usage [00:10:00] was very strong for me in my fight. So, um and and that was, as I say, my main reason there was around HIV STIs that people could negotiate that and feel that it was OK. They're not gonna get busted. And secondly, if people had, um, properties or had actually been in the industry and bought, um, something that they couldn't lose their property under the, um, lure of, um, what is it the money, wrongful [00:10:30] earnings and things like that, you know? So, um, that was all good. I was very I said to my son, Goodness, your mother's changed the law. That's a very public statement coming out and and actually really advocating for a law change. Where does that, um, passion and also being willing to be out there in the public? Where does that come from? I think probably again. We come back to the stigmatisation. [00:11:00] I've been a fortunate, um, person through my life in the sense that my I've not had to live double life. I've been able to discuss this with my family. Um, I'm still somebody's mother, somebody's sister, somebody's daughter. And I've been lucky to have that family to accept me for who I am, knowing who I am, not what I'm for, what I'm doing. So that strength in me, I think, came from that because through those years [00:11:30] I certainly saw and have seen many people throughout life who don't have family support, and I think it's important and you must have it. What do you think of news reports? I mean, and and there are still news reports that happen where It's a very bigger part of a news report saying somebody's been murdered or they were a sex worker. It disgusts me. It disgusts me. So the same thing? Oh, he was gay. Does it really matter? Does it matter what what gender you are [00:12:00] or what you do for a living? For goodness sake, you you've been murdered. And that really has always disgusted me that they've got to, um, sensationalise something by the persons whether they be gay, lesbian, transgender or whether they be a sex worker. And you'd always find those are the two areas that they tend to sensationalise if something goes wrong and you know that just appals me. And hence throughout my life, that's I've seen people who I've known, people who were raped, whether they be [00:12:30] gay, whether they be sex workers. Um, all sorts of things have gone on, um, in their life, and not only from the people outside who walk the street. I'm talking on on a police level as well. And of course, they don't have never reported these things because they are then immediately stigmatised and and that whole news thing is out. So over the years, people haven't reported a lot of things. And today we don't live quite live in that world today where you [00:13:00] can't go and report and especially sex workers, because they can go and report if they've been mishandled or mistreated. And, um, it doesn't become a a big public arena as much as it used to and that that comes through decriminalisation. So that is a good thing. So what are some other ways that you've tackled the whole kind of stigmatisation area? I think speaking [00:13:30] with people who have got a child who has been diagnosed HIV, I think the first things that ever come out of my mouth and when I worked for the AIDS Foundation and people would ring in and say, um, my flatmate or my son or whoever, um, has been diagnosed, The very first thing that comes out of my mouth is your life can go on as normal. You know, this does not change anything in your house. You can eat from the same plates you can [00:14:00] drink from the same cup. You can wash your clothes in the same washing machine. All of those things which people who have never had to face this before, Have no idea. And I can remember people saying, Oh, really? That's not a problem. Not at all. You know, that's, uh, you just your life goes on as normal. There is support available for you and your loved one or your flatmate or whoever you know, go from there. But the one thing that always came out of my mouth that I remember is your life can go on as per normal. Unless somebody's [00:14:30] having a indication with this person. That's when they need to be aware and safe. But over and above that, everything's the same. So I get my little bitch in every now and again. Yeah. In 2000, you established the Cartier trust. I did? Yes. Can you tell me about that? Yes. Well, Courtney Cartier. She was a drag queen in Auckland, and she was HIV positive, of course. And she died with an HIV related illness. [00:15:00] She, um, always called me mother, and, um, she was just a wonderful, wonderful person. I loved her dearly. She had the most beautiful, um, personality. And I used to take her up to um Auckland Hospital regularly for her visit. She contracted cancer through the time of having the virus. So I used to take her up for treatment. Her and her cousin and I would go up and we have treatment. And there and then when she, um, left the hospital, she was funny. She [00:15:30] was so funny. Um, her birthday at she was a drag at. And, um, she was a that she was going to, um, you know, go back to and have a few drinks and da da da da. So her birthday was at Kut probably only a few weeks before she died. And she was in a wheelchair at that point because the cancer had, you know, gone into her back and things, and we propped her up on the bar so that she could do her last drag show. Um, and Courtney's mum and dad had had passed on, and she was an only child. [00:16:00] And she had her cousin, which she used to live with, and Courtney didn't have any money. So, as a community, we rallied along with her cousin to to, um, give her a funeral that she deserved. And she talked openly before she died about what she wanted. And and as I say she went into her bay house and her coffin was put in the garage. And it was, um, decorated, so to speak. And she wanted it all decorated. Well, it looked a bit like a float, [00:16:30] you see, going down Ponsonby Road. And she wasn't, um, gonna die until she saw the finish of her coffin. And so we finished that and bless her soul. She passed away. Not that much longer, but, um, she touched me. She touched me a lot. Um, she was a She was a fighter. She was a wonderful person. Um, beautiful nature. And And I think just to have her she had wonderful friends, but to not actually have [00:17:00] her family mum and dad, As I say, they passed on. So I pretty much slept on the couch at her in the house many nights to stay with her and, um took her up to hospital one night in the middle of the night to Auckland because they couldn't get the catheter and things like that. And so they rang me and I went and picked her up and took her up to Auckland, and I have to say, even in the year 2000. I, um her treatment I felt was not acceptable. I did explain to them that she was a friend. [00:17:30] I wasn't her caregiver. And, of course, it came to the point at the end of her being looked after by the medical staff, I had to redress her. And I say her I always related to Courtney as she always so I can't change that. Carl was her real name. Fuck out, Daniels. But to me, she was Courtney. So, um, we then, um, auctioned a lot of her clothes when she passed away, actually, And we bought things for her in the house to benefit other patients [00:18:00] that were there. And from there the trust was birthed because I thought, Well, you know, there are people here that have had this virus for a long time. They've gone through their savings, they've surviving now, um, and that's probably all they're doing is surviving. And, um, it's really important that that last part of the journey, they have some dignity. So that was my introduction to starting the trust. And I'm very proud of the trust because [00:18:30] we've been able to support and help a lot of people throughout the years. Sadly, of course, but I'm very grateful that we've been able to and loved ones and families have been very, very appreciative of that. So, um, yeah, I'm I'm very passionate, very passionate about the trust. How does the trust work? We run events. Um, we used to run a lot of little events. Now we do sort of one annually. Um, we're in a good, stable place financially. [00:19:00] Uh, we were able to put about $10,000 back into the community of Auckland. I think that was 2008, where we put money back into outline and, you know, different places that we were able to because there hadn't been, um, a lot of deaths through times with Iraq. We've got some surplus money here. We can help another gay lesbian transgender organisation with at the time of need. So we did that. Um, of course, things change. In 2010, we had four deaths, [00:19:30] so things can change in a heartbeat. Yes. So, um, and none of us get paid the trustees on the, um, trust board, They come on with the passion of it, or they don't Come on at all? Uh, I don't. I have a full time job. I work for sexual health. So this is my voluntary work and the same as all the trustees. All have full time jobs and, as again, volunteer their time. We don't have office space. The office space is my my dining room, [00:20:00] so to speak, when need be, um And, you know, that's so we can keep money for the purpose of We meet for lunch, probably once a year on an annual our annual, um, meeting, and that becomes our, um, accountant and the trust members. And we meet and go over everything and have our discussion. And yes, we do have lunch on trust behalf of Guardia Trust and that's come from our accountant said we must, you know, we must have something that's important. I mean, we could be [00:20:30] claiming on our trusted petrol or anything that we do, but we don't. I mean, in actual fact, it probably costs me more than, um, you know, than anything else. Uh, but that's how I want it. I want our money to go into the trust. And, yes, we have a lunch. But as I say will tell you quite often our lunches. I'll go to food town and get a chicken and some buns or something like that. And bits and pieces. And we'll go back to my place or one of the trustees houses and and have lunch. Yeah. [00:21:00] So, um, you know, people I remember somebody was moaning about that car. Do you have lunch on us once. And And it was on a forum of KN dot com, and I just stay away from that. And I think I can't be bothered with this nonsense. You know, Um, so if they sort of call about $90 for a lunch for about five people or six people and for all the hard work that everyone does, a problem will. That's fine. Are there other similar trusts around the world? No. And interesting. You should say that because, um, [00:21:30] in 2006, I was in Canada. I was, uh, flown there by the sex industry Canadian sex indu industry to talk about, uh, how we got law reform through. And there were HIV positive people there. And, um, because it was a harm reduction conference. So it was all around people who was, um, intravenous drug users, too, and, you know, so forth and so on who were HIV positive. And they were just in awe. They couldn't believe it. They thought it was the most fantastic, fantastic thing they'd ever heard [00:22:00] of. And I've had that, um, come from many walks of life actually from different parts of the world, that it's just what we do is just awesome. They couldn't believe that that somebody, you know, that an organisation and and community were actually doing that. And I always say to people that you know it, it's owned by the community. I drive it. That's that's the only thing is the community own it, and I drive it and we're very transparent. So, um, you know our accountant and all that sort of thing. As I said, they all [00:22:30] work for nothing. They all do everything for nothing. So we're very, very fortunate, very fortunate to have some very good people on board you mentioned earlier just a wee bit earlier about, um, dignity. Is that a big thing for you? Absolutely, absolutely. I think at that last part of your life, no matter where you come from, no matter what you've done, no matter who you are, whether it'd be acceptable or not acceptable. I think you have a right to leave this world with dignity. And and that is very important to me. Yes. Where does that come from? [00:23:00] I think be because Well, I guess if we go back, if we go back to the early days of HIV, I guess we can go back to that and And where I have seen that that hasn't happened. Um, and my question is, why? Why? You know, these are people. These are people that that have been unwell. Um, you wouldn't treat cancer patients like this, so don't treat HIV people like this. So I think that's that goes [00:23:30] back a bit. And as I said for for myself, personally, um, again, I've been fortunate to. Whereas we've made sure in our family that people have passed on with dignity. Um, and I come from a great line of cancer. I have a lot of cancer through my family. My son was diagnosed at 27. He's now 40. I lost my brother six months ago. My father, um to me there's no difference you HIV or your cancer. You're dying, for heaven's sake. You know, if you're [00:24:00] at that stage where you're going to die, you are dying. Why should it be different? Why should we treat people differently in that part? Last part of the journey. So now you're working in sexual health? Has has that changed over the years in terms of HIV and AIDS? Um, I mean, are people still taking risks? What's your assessment At the moment, people are still taking risks. Yes. And of course, I'm out and about in road Auckland. Quite a lot. I still, you know, [00:24:30] like to go out and socialise, and yeah, I mean, I'm I'm sure between the AIDS Foundation sexual health, whether you're out socialising you, can you You can see that people are still taking risks. Yes, they are. Why is that? I think people are complacent, I think because people feel that Oh, there's medication there. There's drugs there today, and what they do see is healthy looking people where in the eighties and nineties, you didn't see that you saw very unwell looking people. [00:25:00] So the young one? Well, not just the young ones, but I. I guess my focus is on the young ones who are coming through is that, um what you see is not always what life is, and they may look healthy, but that could change too. You know, they could become resistant to their drugs. All sorts of things can change through that period of time. And as I say, I have still sat with people who are very unwell and looking very unhealthy while they're dying in hospital. So that complacency is [00:25:30] there. Um, I think we we need to put something back on TV like the drink driving ads, Um, the physical abuse ads so that your mainstream can see that this disease is still here. And there is no cure people who are out and about in the communities nowhere to find, like support and help. But if they're not out in the community and the young ones coming through school, [00:26:00] um, they don't know a lot about that on the education system, we've got some very wonderful people who have the ability to educate in schools, and they are educating. But we're too PC. We're too PC that, um you gotta be very careful what they say. And I'm afraid I, I disagree with that. I disagree with that. I I'm one of these people that you say it. How it is and how it is for me is that this disease is still there. It's like [00:26:30] the ocean. If you disrespect it, it can take you. Um, we talk about having life jackets in the ocean because it's bigger than us. Well, we need to talk about using condoms because this disease is bigger than us. And, uh, as I say, it needs to be on TV to the mainstream of people who are sitting in the lounges and see it. You don't see anything in the doctor's surgeries. You don't see HIV pamphlets or things like that in the doctor's surgeries. So how are these young ones to know? [00:27:00] I can still remember in the eighties that Grim Reaper television advert for HIV and AIDS. Do you remember that? Oh, that was huge. Gosh, I was living in Australia and that was huge. It was very, very scary. It was very scary. Um, I've got to be honest back then, because of the unknown around HIV. It's certainly made a few people sit up and think and think Well, you know and it certainly did, um, for a lot of people I know I don't think we need anything [00:27:30] as harsh as that today at all. I think we just need to bring out the awareness. Um, in T on TV that this virus is I call it virus diseases. I don't know. It's just I go two ways there that, um, it is still here. It is still here, and there is no cure and you can you can avoid this and it's giving people the power to make those choices. How can they make those choices if they don't have [00:28:00] the knowledge? And that's how I feel very strongly. Knowledge is powerful. Don't leave it too late for them to get that knowledge. Let's stop being so PC in this country. Let's get it into the schools. Let's get it on the TV because the statistics are still there and they're growing. The proof is there, and it seems to be affecting a lot of people in their early twenties thirties. Absolutely. [00:28:30] I run a I cos support an under 35 HIV group and some of those yeah, they are kids. They they they're young, you know, they're young people. Um I look at as I say, my own family and I look at them coming through life, and I think, boy, I'm very strong in educating them. I mean, I give them every every bit of knowledge every pay for it from sexual health. Believe you, me, I pack it all up and give it to them to read anything about TIS and HIV S. They've got it. [00:29:00] Um, and I'm very open in discussion with them. Very open in discussion with them. And as I say, even the teenage ones know where my journey's been. So they know that I have the knowledge they're not sitting back. They're just sort of thinking. Oh, well, how do you know? You know, you're an old lady now. They know I have the knowledge, and they know that, um, I'm still involved in the community of HIV, so you know they do. They do hear what I'm saying. Whether they take it on board and and, um, use it will [00:29:30] remain to be seen. I hope so. But all I can say is they've been given the knowledge they have the power. So what's your role with the, um under. It's under 35. 35? Yes. We just, um it was something that I wanted to do for some time, because out in the community a lot of these young ones I used to see all the time being rather free and, you know, alcohol and just, you know, I mean, I used to see such a lot, and I thought, Oh, dear. And then I'd I'd get [00:30:00] some of the young ones say, Oh, you know, I've been diagnosed HIV and and very withdrawn because all of a sudden it's hit them. Now they've got it. And, um, where do I go? What do I do now? So I approached Craig and Bruce at body positive, um, to see if we could. So anyway, we've run it under the body. Positive umbrella. Well, it it's it's called get connected. But we use their premises at body positive. So it's first Sunday of every month. Um, we [00:30:30] introduce ourselves when new ones come in, we can have discussion. We've either got a format that we might discuss around, um, how they feel. Um, we might just have an open floor, and, um, a a strong emphasis is put on that they have responsibilities. Um, now to make sure that they use condoms, that they don't have to disclose if they're using condoms. But if they're not going to use condoms, they need to disclose We We haven't put a strong emphasis [00:31:00] on that so that we keep them safe from any ridicule and making wrong choices and wrong decisions. And it's a great little It's a great little organisation or club. Whatever. I have watched some of these boys grow in the 12 months who have come in very sheepish, very. You know, um, we were at Bed Street at fundraise for body positive, and a few of the boys were there under the 35 group. And I remember one of them coming up to me and saying, I feel normal, Karen [00:31:30] giving me a big hug. I feel so normal. This is great. I said, Darling, you are normal. You are absolutely normal. So to see that transition from fear what people may think, Um, how do I come through this? Where do I get the power to be strong in me, You know, and, um yeah, it's wonderful. I love it. They're very special. So Where do you get the power to be strong? When, for instance, you've you've seen friends pass away in the in the eighties and and people now are coming down [00:32:00] with HIV. It's like history repeating in some ways. Yeah, well, it is. Um I suppose I'll give you an ex. Uh, I suppose I get support from my trustees. There's a lot of things that go on, of course, under confidentiality that I can't disclose and I wouldn't disclose. So I probably walk around with more secrets than my. As one of the drag queens said to McCray. She'll go. She'll go to her grave with more secrets than anyone you ever know. So So, [00:32:30] um, you know, there's a lot that I've got to keep to myself. Um, but I have support from my trustees because they know they know that I quite often and with people a lot who are unwell. Um, I think probably the hardest one for me recently was I lost my brother at Auckland Hospital with cancer. Um, and then five weeks later, I was up there with a young boy. That young man, I should say that had called my mother for years dying of [00:33:00] HIV. So I was back in that hospital. Uh, you know, five weeks after losing my own brother. So that was quite hard. I felt that very hard. I just you know, it was, um, two very different people, but people that I that I loved and and for different reasons So But I do get my support, As I say I, I find my support somewhere or I find my solace by just shutting everything off at home and having some peace and quiet. Um, you mentioned [00:33:30] to me earlier that you had, uh, mentioned to somebody at the support group that you were doing an interview about making a difference and and what was their response? It's quite interesting because I I asked this person actually, um, via email, and he said to me, um, what was his words? You listen, you love you don't judge and it's just so important. It's just so important because [00:34:00] it's three things that some of them can be lacking in not having, you know, somebody to listen to them. Somebody to love them. And somebody did not make judgement. And that really took me back. Because I I hadn't really given it that thought. To be honest, I hadn't honestly given it that thought. But that was very, very, very special. Really? So, um, I guess we're doing something right. If I've got not much to give, I can give lots [00:34:30] of love and support.

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TITLE: Georgina Beyer - people remembered
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VOICES: Georgina Beyer
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; Anand Satyanand; Aotearoa New Zealand; Barack Obama; Blue Diamond Society; Brian Neeson; Carterton; Catherine Tizard; Charles - Prince of Wales; Commonwealth Parliamentary Association; Copenhagen; Denmark; Edmund Hillary; Gay Lynn (Grey Lynn); Georgie Girl (2001); Georgina Beyer; Governor-General of New Zealand; Graham Norton; HIV / AIDS; Hansard; Helen Clark; Howard Morrison; Iran; Jeanette Fitzsimons; Jenny Shipley; Jerry Hall; Jim Bolger; Joan Bolger; John Banks; Kobe (Japan); Lady June Hillary; London; Lucy Lawless; Madrid; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Malvina Major; Maramena Roderick; Mayor of Carterton; Member of Parliament; Michael Hardie Boys; Montreal; Myra Thomas; National Party; Nepal; New Zealand Womans Weekly; Parliament buildings; Peter Dunne; Pinky Agnew; Prince Andrew - Duke of York; Prince Edward - Earl of Wessex; Prince Philip - Duke of Edinburgh; Queen Elizabeth II; Radio Pacific; Ronnie Wood; Roseanne Barr; Ruby Wax; Ruby's Round Table (tv); Russia; Sam Neill; Scott Kennedy; Silvia Cartwright; Spain; Sue Bradford; Sunil Pant; TVNZ (Television New Zealand); Tony Ryall; Toronto; United Kingdom; United Nations; United States of America; Vladimir Luxuria; Wairarapa; Wellington; Westpac Stadium; World Outgames (2009); advocate; civil unions; clothing; comedy; conservative; death penalty; equality; fax; film festival; gay; hand movements; homophobia; human rights; inspiration; interviewing; jewellery; lesbian; mayor; media; opportunity; punitive law; queen; rural; talk back; tangata whenua; third gender; transcript online; transexual; transgender; transphobia; underprivileged
DATE: 27 January 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 27 January 2013
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Gareth Watkins: Georgina, you’re famous and inspirational yourself, and I’m wondering do you have people in your career that you’ve met that are either famous, inspirational, or people that you just absolutely remember for, you know, other reasons that you want to talk about? Georgina Beyer: Oh, well I can talk about some of the famous people that I’ve met, or very high profile, you know. Well, you can’t help it sometimes in the world that you move in, I mean from the entertainment industry or whether it’s in the political sphere, but The Queen, who I’ve met several times. When I was Mayor of Carterton was the first time I met The Queen in 1995 and came out with my famous quip on my remarking to Mrs Bolger, the Prime Minister’s wife of the day, who said to me, “I see you’ve just been introduced to The Queen,” and I said, “Yes, she’s the first real Queen I’ve ever met.” And that sort of ended up as a headline the next day in the newspaper or something. And then in 2000 when I was part of a Parliamentary delegation to the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association Conference which was being hosted in London and in Edinburgh that year, and I met her again there and she remembered me because on our first meeting when I’d been Mayor of Carterton she had recognized the name Carterton. And there’s a Carterton in Oxfordshire in England and nearby is an Air Force base, and she and the family fly in and out of there from time to time (laughs). So we had this sort of: Oh, yes! Well, we’re going to have our sister-city relationship with Carterton and the UK, and so on and so forth. And then the last time I met The Queen was in 2002 on her Golden Jubilee World Tour that she was making, and she came to New Zealand and I, for whatever reason, found myself in the official receiving line out at the airport when she first arrived. And Silvia Cartwright was our Government General then. I think Jim Anderton stood in as Deputy Prime Minister that day for Helen [Clark], and I was there as not only a member of the government but because I’m tangata whenua to Wellington and I was there with a little Maori group. In fact a relative had rung up and said: Oh, uncle such-and-such can’t make it, and you’re in the government and, you know, come out to the airport. And there I was. And The Queen and I met sort of quite publicly there. In fact that photograph over there is of that meeting. And the press pack that arrived with her that day on the plane – and Prince Philip was with her – when it got to her and I shaking hands and meeting, you know, pictures were taken and of course that news went around the world instantaneously. It was front pages of all the British newspapers the next day, with funny headlines like “By George! It’s the Queen!” and stuff like that. And it was all sort of quite lighthearted and nice. Two days later we had a state luncheon or state dinner at Parliament at The Beehive for The Queen and Prince Philip, and Helen Clark got absolutely ridiculed because she wore evening trousers to the state dinner rather than a formal dress or whatever like that, and she got absolutely ridiculed in the British newspapers for that, and I got all this good PR for me and The Queen meeting. And just on a slightly more serious side of that, The Queen is aware of everyone she’s going to meet in an official receiving line, especially when she first arrives in a country. And so she’s made aware by her minders and helpers, you know, who’s going to be in the receiving line as she’s being escorted down. If anyone had expressed to her that I was going to be there and the potential for some possible embarrassment, because this is the world’s first transsexual Member of Parliament who’s going to be in the receiving line, you might want to avoid in case there are some funny photos. Well, that didn’t happen and of course we were fine because we had met before, and that speaks volumes to me of someone like The Queen. I don’t know whether or not she would have made a conscious decision to sort of think: Well, so what? Half the staff at Buck House [Buckingham Palace] must be gay (laughs), and what would I be worried about necessarily? And that sort of was good. So, The Queen. I’ve met Prince Edward and Prince Andrew and Prince Charles, so that sort of takes care of the British Royal Family. Oh, and of course yes, I did meet the Duke of Edinburgh, but I mean he’s a homophobe from way back and I must admit his hello to me at that 2002 arrival in New Zealand was brief and curt and he couldn’t get away from me quick enough, so that was that. But who cares? He’s nearly dead. (laughs)And, gosh, who else have I met? Oh, Ruby Wax, Jerry Hall, Graham Norton – I met them on a visit to the UK in 2002 doing a TV programme with Ruby Wax. Oh, and some of our own New Zealanders. I was always pleased to meet Howard Morrison. Ed Hillary. Sir Ed Hillary I’ve met on several occasions. A wonderful, wonderful man and always very hospitable with me. I think I met him when I was Mayor of Carterton, and certainly when I was an MP. In fact I’ve got some photos of me and him and Lady Hillary together at a function. We were all at a big showcase thing that was happening at the Westpac Stadium in Wellington a few years back. Howard Morrison, Sam Neill, Malvina Major. Oh, God, if I try to remember all of the... and they’re all fabulous people and I’m always humbled to have ever been able to be in the same room with them, you know. Politicians. I mean, gosh, you know, Jenny Shipley, Lucy Lawless - I’m just sort of looking at the cover of The Woman’s Weekly that I was in the other week. Gareth: Then you’ve got people like John Banks. Georgina: Oh, well, obviously I would hardly put them in “I admire” column or anything like that. Gareth: Well how do you deal with somebody like, you know, I’m thinking like John Banks and maybe some of the conservative MPs in Parliament? Georgina: (laughs) As any queen would expect me to behave with them. The first time I ever physically met John Banks I was Mayor of Carterton. He was a National Party Minister in the National government of the 1990s. And it may not be widely known to many people but John Banks has a history in Carterton. His parents and family were from Carterton and indeed he lived there as a child I think for some time, and he had a school teacher called Myra Thomas who lived just down the road from me in Carterton. And one day I’m walking home from my mayoral office and I’m going home and I’m walking past Myra’s, in front of Myra’s house, and who the hell should have just pulled up in her front lawn but John Banks, and John had gone to visit her. And I walked past and said, “Huh, Mr Banks! What are you doing in my town?” I sort of said to him, ha, ha, you know, so it was all lovely and jovial. And I say this because he also did a Radio Pacific talk-back show, and on occasions he had me on and would try to ridicule me and run me down and be mean and nasty, and that kind of thing. And on the radio I used to give as good as I got, I must admit. Now here he was face to face with me, so that was sort of a bit funny. Otherwise I’ve had nothing to do with John Banks at all until actually this year sometime when I was visiting Parliament and was getting in a lift in Bowen House, and who should hop into the life but Peter Dunne, who I know and he’s my local MP currently at the moment, and John Banks. So it’s just the three of us in the lift and I go, “Ahh, Mr Banks! Georgina Beyer. Remember me?” And he looked at me as though - if his arse could get any tighter, you know, he thought like I was going to do something to him or whatever; he just looked absolutely perplexed and couldn’t say a word – ah, uh, oh, hello, uhm; you know, like that and couldn’t wait to get to his floor so that he could get out. But I get comfort out of their discomfort, put it that way, because it’s their problem not mine. Get over it baby! And I think the other thing, too, is that when you’re in Parliament and a politician and parliamentarian you’re sort of equals in lots of ways. I mean, you know, I might be who I am with my backstory and he might be who he is with his backstory but in Parliament, you know: You’re an MP. Well, I’ve been one too so that’s not so great is it? So what’s the difference there? Who else? Brian Neeson was another MP who sort of always seemed to be offended that I breathed the same air as they did. And I can remember one day we were passing each other in the underground escalators under The Beehive, which go under The Beehive and across to Bowen House. I was going down and he was coming up, down one side. And whenever he used to come past me I’d get this grim look and he’d sort of go flushed in the cheeks a little bit, sort of outraged that I was there. And one day I just turned around and said, “Look, Brian, why don’t you get that heated roller out of your arse and lighten up a bit?” Well, he just about went apoplectic, (gasps) Oh! and everything like that, and everyone who was in earshot around me who head it just absolutely cracked up. See, I could get away with that sort of stuff and everybody would sort of like it. And I remember once in the chamber Tony Ryall, who was wearing colorful ties and shirts, and sort of mismatched with his nicely tailored suits, and things like that, and he was one for great gesticulation in the chamber while he was giving a speech, and one day he’s giving a great impassioned speech about something, and he’s in opposition at the time, and throwing his hands around like that, and just straight out of my mouth, at one particular point, I just threw my hands in the air and went, “Oh, girlfriend!” I just heckled that across the chamber. And (gasps), you know, he’s... it just brought him... it completely interrupted his flow, and he wasn’t expecting it. And I think he was trying to analyze whether or not he could take a point of order and ask me to withdraw and apologize, but somebody saying “girlfriend” and heckling that across the chamber is an intervention. And of course if he’d said anything, if he’d actually stopped and replied to me or anything like that it would have been noted in the Hansard. (laughs) So it would have read in the Hansard that he’s talking away, talking away, talking away, and then suddenly, “Girlfriend!” comes out across the chamber and then he reacts to it. And so, I had my fun sometimes, you know, as far as that was concerned. But I have to say generally I received respect from most people. I mean, if people had adverse feelings about me or people like me or anything like that they by and large kept it to themselves, were never foolish enough to use it as a personal attack at any time in the House or in any debates or anything like that, because it just wouldn’t be worth doing it and I’d end up looking much better than they would if they were going to do that sort of thing. And I didn’t promulgate it either. I didn’t sort of use it as some kind of mechanism, other than when you yell out... well, it was boring in the chamber that day; what else could I do? “Oh, girlfriend!” just sort of... it was like.... Pinky Agnew came to the chamber one day and she says to me, “God, I never thought I would arrive in our Parliament and see a member sitting down there wearing feathers and a bit of sequin in the chamber” because I happened to have this top that had a bit of feather and sometimes a bit of twinkle in there, because usually people dressed down and very conservative, and I thought oh no damn it, add a bit of glam to the chamber, and I could do that and get away with it I suppose, and it was within the dress code. I didn’t look like Jeanette Fitzsimons. You know, I didn’t have a bad hairdo like Sue Bradford (laughs). Gareth: What about favorite interviews. You mentioned that you were interviewed by Ruby Wax. Georgina: Ruby Wax, yes. I went to London to represent Parliament at the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association Conference as part of a New Zealand delegation. But that was in 2000. But in late 1999 Ruby Wax had been in New Zealand doing a comedy concert thing, and she had a show in Wellington at the St James Theatre, and I along with Malcolm Vaughan and his partner Scotty, and one or two others, had been asked to judge a Ruby Wax lookalike competition, and the winner would be announced and the prize presented after Ruby’s first show. And that’s exactly what happened. And we met Ruby Wax, and Ruby Wax was fascinated by me and so she gave me her telephone number. I thought yeah right, like I could just phone you up or anything! However, it’s pretty telling when I tell you that I kept the telephone number just in case, if I happened to be somewhere, and then as it turned out a few months later there I am in London as part of this delegation. And I had the phone number and so I rang it, and it was her private home phone number, so she was serious. And long story short she said, oh thank God you’re here; I’d love you to come on... she has a chat show called Ruby’s Roundtable, or she did at that time, and she wanted me to come and be a guest on it. My conference ended its London leg of the conference and we relocated to Edinburgh, and the day after we arrived there I had to fly back down to London to go and do this interview with Ruby. And I flew back down. Now, we had a TVNZ reporter called Maramena Roderick who was covering, you know, European news for TVNZ there, and we’d run into her at a function at the Australian Embassy and she was covering what the New Zealand delegation at the conference were doing. And I mentioned to her that I was coming back to do this interview with Ruby Wax, so she was very keen on getting a bit of that and so Maramena was there at Heathrow Airport to catch up with me when I arrived back down to go to the BBC. I was met by a minder person and then I was shown to this limousine, I was given all the red-carpet treatment. Maramena was very impressed with all of this and she jumps in the car with me and off we go to Shepherd’s Bush, the TV studios, and arrive in there and are whisked in, and then Ruby and I are sitting in the makeup room. And Graham Norton was also on the show and he arrived. I didn’t know him then, and nor did New Zealand really; his show hadn’t started playing in New Zealand. Now of course he’s very famous here. So he was going to be part of the show. And Jerry Hall! And I was absolutely, you know, star-struck when I realized it was Jerry Hall that was going to be there and we were sitting next to each other throughout the two hours of this thing that we were doing. And in the makeup room comparing tit jobs and all of that sort of stuff that we were doing together. And in fact, at the end of the whole record for the roundtable chatty thing Jerry Hall said to me: Oh, you know, why don’t you come out with me tonight? I’ve got this fabulous do. Ron Wood’s opening a new bar at such and such. Why don’t you come along? And I was torn between: Oh my God, yes please, I would love to go to something like that! Torn between that and my duty to New Zealand, which was to return to the conference, of course, in Edinburgh. Unfortunately I chose the latter. I wished I’d gone to that bloody do. I mean, what was another day out of the conference? You know, the PR for New Zealand would have been much greater if I’d gone to the opening of Ron Wood’s new bar and restaurant or whatever it was, with all the glitterati no doubt that would be there; but no, it didn’t come to pass. So that was wonderful. Oh, in stark contrast to my encounter with Rosanne Barr, where we never actually physically met but we met via technology on a video link. She wanted me to come on her show as a guest so I beamed in from New Zealand. But it turned out to be an absolute nightmare for me, and she just ridiculed me and I felt horrible after doing that and wished I’d never participated in it. I was dreading that it was going to show in New Zealand at some time because, you know, I was newly elected to Parliament so I behaved myself and I just sort of took the insults that were flying from her, and the innuendo that was flying from her; things like: So, this is the world’s first transsexual member of Parliament. Well I don’t think it’s fair that she should be able to... because you don’t have to have periods and you don’t have to have children. And she went on and on like this, and I sort of sat there and my only retort was, well, you could become a lesbian, Rosanne, but to a live audience that she was in front of in Los Angeles or wherever she was located. I was in a Wellington building here. And like I said, we were doing a video link thing. And I felt terrible. And we did that on a Saturday and on Monday morning I turn up at my office at Parliament and this fax arrives – remember faxes? And this fax arrives saying, oh, could I please sign this release form? Now, I had already signed a release form. What I didn’t realize was the release form I had signed was a release for still photography. This release form was for the interview and I seized my chance and I went, no way am I going to be signing this. And I wrote a fax back to her and said: I want you to remove all of my interview. I don’t want to be on your programme. Take it off. I do not release permission for me to be on it. Take it out. Take it out. And they said, well, you can’t do that; you can’t do that. And I said, well yes I can, I just have, and haven’t signed a release form and if you don’t comply with my wishes on this and just remove me entirely from your TV program I’ll sue you for millions, and left it at that. And I think a few days later I had to go to Australia, and would you believe they followed me, they found me in Australia and rang me up: Please, would I hurry up and sign this release form and send it back; they had to get this program to air shortly, blah, blah, blah, and all of this sort of thing. And I went, no, no, no, no, no. She was furious. I won in the end and there was nothing with me on this particular programme. So, phew! Was I pleased? Yes I was. A nasty piece of work that bitch is. Other famous people? I don’t know. I think I’ve met a few of our Governor Generals now, quite amazing people in their own particular ways. They aren’t terribly interesting, are they? (laughs) Dame Cath was probably our first Governor General and she was the one who introduced me to The Queen for the first time. And Dame Cath Tizard, Silvia Cartwright, Anand Satyanand, and Sir Michael Hardie Boys and people like that. Yeah, now I’m just name dropping (laughs); that is what it sounds like half the time. The world’s second transsexual to be elected to a Parliament, Vladimir Luxuria, that was quite a historic meeting that her and I had at a gay conference at the Mexican Parliament a few years ago. Unfortunately she was only in Parliament for about nine months. She was in the Prodi government that did not last very long. In Italy they seemed to roll over every other day over there, but it doesn’t take away from the fact that she was the second. A chap called Sunil Babu Pant, who was one of Nepal’s first out gay members of Parliament. After I had finished my time in Parliament he and I met up at the Outgames Conference in Copenhagen, and there he asked me if I would come to Nepal to help him because he was part of a committee that was drafting their new constitution over there, and would I come over, because they were looking at the human-rights chapter of the constitution, and would I come over to talk with that committee about, since I was elected in New Zealand, some of the other things like civil unions and other law and things like that that were done here and give them my own sort of track record and stuff. And would I go over and make a wee contribution to that? That was remarkable. I did go there. I met their President, their Prime Minister, their whole then-government at the time, to sort of lobby, I suppose, to have human rights or some aspects of human rights that were.... Well, in fact, what they’ve included would be a first in the world over there, is rights of equality and human rights for what they call the third sex in their draft constitution over there. So I provided them with a few words, so I’ve got a little bit of an input in their new draft constitution. That was quite a remarkable trip. And Sunil – very brave. He has an amazing sort of NGO called the Blue Diamond Society, I think, and he’s visited New Zealand as a guest here from time to time over the last few years. I haven’t been in touch with him recently and I’m not sure if he’s still in Parliament over there. But that was an interesting opportunity. I mean, other than just people I think the opportunities I’ve had, just through being an elected member in the New Zealand Parliament, with the distinction of being transsexual, has opened up doors to other conferences of international human rights, whether it be United Nations or HIV conferences: I’ve been to Kobe; I’ve been to Montreal and Toronto; I’ve helped numerous other gay organizations around the world with fundraising things where I might have been over there to do things. But you don’t realize until, you know, you go to these things and you’re asked to do keynote addresses and things like that, and you tell your story and you tell your experience and some of your philosophies and opinions on things like that, that it has a huge amount of significance for the audience and for the people who are listening. And I’ve sat on panels where I’ve been amongst gay and lesbian, and I’ve been the only transgender politician sitting there on these panels. And it’s quite interesting, whether they’re gay or lesbian, or transgender I guess, but it’s interesting that our stories have similarities about how we got to be where we are and the challenges that we’ve faced in getting there, all the reactions, all the whatever, and that there’s a whole audience of LGBTI and others who are very keen and interested to pick our brains on how we might have navigated our way through, because it’s about sharing our experience so that others who are aspiring to get there, but because they might live in jurisdictions where their regimes are far more punitive or it’s far more difficult.... You know, take the United States, the so-called land of the free, and yet really until [Barack] Obama in his recent utterances has sort of enforced that gay equal rights and human rights and stuff, you’ve got this mish-mash of States that do and States that don’t. And then you’ve got this horrible juxtaposition of Russia at the moment that are creating laws to be even more punitive. I mean, for some gay communities around the world, take Iran, it’s still the death penalty. But in others they’re seeing the light or there are these debates going over same-sex marriage. You know, we’re up to there, but in other countries they’re still just trying to get on the first rung, and so it’s incumbent upon those of us that have had the chances and opportunities – gay, lesbian, the LGBTI communities who’ve been able to politically make it somewhere – to share what value we have to offer. And so some of the most inspirational people I’ve met have been the underprivileged LGBTI community people whom I have come across and met who.... Let’s take.... I visited Madrid once in Spain. It was actually to help promote “Georgie Girl”, a documentary, and while I was there I’d arranged that I would also go and meet a delegation of Spanish politicians and MPs, but the local transgender group in Madrid, who were also part of their national organization that they have, met up with me at the screening of the “Georgie Girl” film, which was part of a gay film festival they were having in Madrid at the time. And so I spent some time with them and they were talking to me about how they just cannot make any headway with any political support or lobbying or whatever from their Parliament and their politicians, that they have never been able to get a face-to-face meeting with any MPs or engage with Parliament or anything like that at all, and they wanted to know from me how do I think they should be able to do it. And I said, “Well actually I’m going to the Parliament tomorrow, why don’t you come with me?” And they looked at me like I was mad or something. And I said, “Not all of you; get three of you. Come with me.” And so three of them came with me, they were still suspicious about what was going to happen. I arrived at the Parliament. It was a big news thing that I was turning up at the Parliament and had to go through the paparazzi and all of this sort of thing, and then I was formally met in this corridor with these ten MPs that I was meeting with, and then met, and photos with the media and all of this sort of thing, and these queens were with me the whole way. And then we get into this room for this meeting that we’re having, and so we’re all seated down at the table and these three Spanish queens are with me and the introductions are made, et cetera, et cetera, and I said, “Look, I’d like to forfeit five minutes of my time with you to these transgender people, and would that be okay?” And it was okay. And I said, “There’s five minutes. Go for it!” And they did. They introduced themselves, handed around their business cards, exchanged cards with the MPs that were sitting there, managed to get a commitment for them to be seen later on at some further day, to make an appointment and all of that, and that was that. And then I carried on with my meeting with them, and all of that sort of thing. Afterwards, they all broke down and howled and cried and were in disbelief that this had just happened. They said that in one fell swoop I had achieved for them what had taken them a long – years almost – to ever get that close, even to get anywhere near the seat of power, and that I’d taken care of it for them just like that. And I said, well, no big deal. I said, what else should I do? I said, the opportunity was there; I’ve done nothing except make an introduction and used an opportunity that I had that’s no skin off my nose, but to them it meant the world. And of course it was the beginning of establishing some relationship and rapport with some MPs in that Parliament for that particular group, which they treated like gold. They gave me a beautiful gift when I left of Swarovski jewelry, a millennium edition, a one-off millennium edition beautiful pendant. I still have it. And just they wanted to show their appreciation. And that’s what I mean by sometimes rather than meeting people and famous this and that and movers and shakers, it’s those kinds of things that are more inspirational, and you sort of think that whatever I might have achieved and whatever I might have done, it can transfer into helping other people if you give it the opportunity, and that actually it’s a responsibility that I have even though I’m out of politics, even though nobody here in this country seems to give a shit about what I want to do or anything (laughs) like that, that out there it still matters and no one can ever take away from the fact that this country and me, on that little microcosm of life we were the first in the world, and that inspired many others of us out there that it’s possible. And we did that – New Zealand did that – and it’s just helped to feed through, embolden, and keep active and motivated others out there who are way less fortunate than you or I. We think we have hard times and that we fight our battles – Oh, honey, it’s nothing compared to some countries around the world who will never know the justice that we know. And it’s our responsibility, actually, in a civilized country and world to make sure we can do what we can and share what we can to help uplift them so that they’re up with us. You know, our life ain’t so bad after all at the end of the day compared to others. So, that’s been an inspiration, and to think that I had that little piece that I’ve given to the world. And the little old Wairarapa; little old, conservative, right-wing Wairarapa did that. And you see, that’s inspirational in itself. There’s me and my backstory, and there’s me and my abilities and all of that sort of thing, but none of it would have happened if it hadn’t been for a rural, conservative area. And it needed to be that, not Gay Lynn, not downtown CBD Wellington, not some beautiful, leafy middle-class liberal suburb. No. Rural, conservative New Zealand, who were able to overlook any of my mistakes of the past or whatever like that, take me at face value, and mutually honest about nothing hidden, no surprises, and all of that, who said, yeah, we think we can trust you to be a good advocate for us, a good representative for us, and give you the chance and put you into these positions. And that’s who put me there. And that’s a fantastic story. And if you can transfer that to other areas where you think against all odds, against all the odds, well, think again, it could happen. But it comes down to... I think the other day when we were talking you talked about five things that I.... And it was funny as you read them back to me and I was going, yes I still stand by that, and yes, be upfront and honest, don’t hide anything, be out there, face the challenges and all that, yeah, I do. It’s been a reasonable mantra to live by.

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TITLE: Georgina Beyer - significant legislation
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VOICES: Georgina Beyer
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 2000s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Ashraf Choudhary; Auckland; Bob McCoskrie; Brian Tamaki; Catherine Healy; Civil Union Act (2004); Clayton Cosgrove; Conservative Christianity; Destiny Church; Dover Samuels; Enough is Enough (2004, Destiny Church rally); Europe; Exclusive Brethren; Foreshore and Seabed Act (2004); Foreshore and seabed hikoi; Garth McVicar; General election; Georgina Beyer; Green Party; HIV / AIDS; Helen Clark; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Hunters Corner; John Tamihere; Larry Baldock; Louisa Wall; Luamanuvao Winnie Laban; Mama Tere Strickland; Manchester Street; Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) Act 2011; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Maxim Institute; Melissa Farley; Member of Parliament; Michael Cullen; Murray Smith; Māori; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; National Council of Women; New Zealand Labour Party; Nuremberg Rally; Parliament buildings; Peter Dunne; Prostitution Reform Act (2003); Ross Robertson; STI; Sweden; Tariana Turia; Te Paati Māori; Tim Barnett; United Future; Wairarapa; Wellington; abuse; advocacy; attitude; church; civil unions; complacency; condoms; conscience vote; criminalisation; decriminalisation; equality; exploitation; family values; health; health care; homosexual law reform; justice; marriage equality; massage parlour; pimping; police; politics; religion; safe sex; select committee; sex industry; sex work; ship girl; ships; social attitudes; social engineering; societal attitudes; solicitation; transcript online; transgender
DATE: 27 January 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 27 January 2013
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Georgina Beyer: Right, my name is Georgina Beyer, and in the mid to late 1970s through to the early 1980s prostitution was part of how I earnt my income, amongst other things. Prostitution in those days was a dangerous game, mainly practiced of course by women working out of massage parlors, as they were called. There weren’t very many girls that plied their trade on the street. That was normally the preserve of the drag queen scene, the streetwalker scene. Occasionally there were some straight girls that would be around there, and of course the ship girls, and that could either be straight girls or queens, actually, who would also service the carnal needs of sailors in on shipping and fishing vessels, Merchant Navy vessels and stuff like that that would come into the port in Wellington at the time. It was a hard and dangerous and pretty unsavory kind of vocation to be involved with at that time, always open to a lot of abuse. The onus was always on the sex worker, there was never any culpability on the behalf of the client. A lot of abuse; a lot of exploitation; a lot of criminal elements who would – pimping, I’m talking about, particularly for girls who were under duress as far as that was concerned. And money was okay, I suppose, but yeah, it was exploitative and somebody, especially from within parlors and things like that, would be there to clock the ticket so to speak, from the clients that you had. There was no protection, certainly not when it came to condoms or anything like that. This was pre the advent of HIV and AIDS I suppose. And like I say, there was a lot of abuse that could go on: the clients on sex workers, sex workers amongst each other, their pimps and their minders, and a lot of exploitation in that regard, and there was nowhere you could go to get any kind of support or justice or whatever because it was, of course, considered morally corrupt and it was illegal. Prostitution per se was not illegal, but soliciting was. So you could, say at a parlor, be found with extraordinary amounts, especially into the ‘80s and ‘90s even, with great supplies of condoms, and suggestions that there might be more than just massage going on in a massage parlor, and that sometimes could be an excuse for the police to arrest you and take you away and process you for those sorts of things. So it was very unfair. Gareth Watkins: And then fast forward to the early 2000s and you find yourself in Parliament and this bill comes before Parliament which is The Prostitution Reform Bill. Georgina: Mm-hm. The Prostitution Reform Act, as it is now, but bill as it was then, was a members’ bill promoted by Tim Barnett, who was a Labor MP in the then Helen Clark Labor led government, and so it was a private members’ bill, not a government bill. And essentially it was seeking to address the injustices that exist within the sex industry for the sex workers. It was also a huge health and safety issue because, you know, the oldest profession in the world, STIs, STDs, HIV, all of those kinds of things were very prominent as far as being health issues. Occupational health and safety was a major force behind it, and also the bill promulgated the idea that instead of being punitive, which is where you would think people would mainly go, that we should perhaps look at it differently to address the issue and provide fairness and equity and some rights for the sex-working industry. And that, I guess in sort of a nutshell, is what the Prostitution Reform Act was about. Of course it was hugely controversial. You know, the mainly conservative New Zealander was not ready to be confronted with this kind of liberalization, decriminalization of sex work, but it was really a matter of the public looking in the mirror and saying, well it’s been brushed under the carpet, essentially, in a legal sense for so long it hasn’t addressed the issues of abuse, the issues of health and safety within the sector for anyone who comes in contact with or accesses the services of that industry, and it’s as important for the clients as it is for the sex worker that it be a safe, functioning environment. And I have to say that at that time we had no... New Zealand had no facts and figures that were reliable on how this industry worked, or of being able to monitor how it was working, and that people’s needs and things were sort of being properly and more formally addressed – so that was part of the reasons for it. So, the bill was introduced and drawn from the ballot, which is always a bit of a lottery in Parliament, and it came up for its first reading, gosh, what year? 2000, 2001? I can’t quite remember when it came up for its first reading. And of course by this time I’d been elected into Parliament in 1999, and when I got up to make my first reading speech on the prostitution bill.... And obviously Tim had said, oh, it’s going to be great having me around to support the bill, and I on the face of it did support its intentions. And when I read my first reading speech I can remember saying, “Mr Speaker, I guess I’m the only member in this House that’s ever worked in the sex industry.” Nobody denied that and I was able to speak from a position of experience about it, and that we could right the wrongs here; that really we needed to address this issue in a sensible and intelligent way as a country and albeit that it’ll be difficult and people will be going (gasps), taking huge gulps of, you know, good God, what are we doing here? kind of thing. But, you know, it’s not turned out to be as horrible and as bad. There are some elements of it now that need to be addressed again. Gareth: At that time were there any other countries in the world that had either decriminalized sex work or legalized it? Georgina: I don’t think legalized it so much. One or two of the Scandinavian countries I think had a slightly more liberal outlook on it but there were still some punitive effects of it. But to criminalize someone for being a sex worker, and for clients to have gotten off scot-free was just sort of really quite intolerable when it came to the law because it does take two consenting adults in this financial transaction that occurs regarding sex, and that’s essentially what it was. The difficulty is that a lot of transmittable sexual diseases can occur, and the kind of clientele that accesses the services of sex workers are not your plastic mac brigade, they are ordinary men and women who, so the husband might have a flirtation somewhere overseas or with a New Zealander or whatever, could pass on anything unwittingly to a spouse or a partner. And with HIV being particularly highlighted as something where safe sex was the message we were putting out, well, you know, how can you guarantee that you’re going to get safe sex if you’re accessing the sexual services of a prostitute and no health matters are being considered, i. e., wearing condoms, et cetera, or having non-penetrative sex or whatever it might be. That just is one aspect of it. So no, there weren’t any other countries around the world at the time that were looking at approaching the issue of prostitution the way that this bill was going to address it. Gareth: What was the debate like in Parliament? Georgina: Oh, it was venal. It was difficult, and not just in Parliament but I mean throughout the country. It was sensational around the country and hugely divisive and an extraordinary amount of work and lobbying and debate and discussion occurred. I think the campaigners for prostitution reform, Catherine Healy of what became the Prostitutes’ Collective, other women’s’ organizations, even the National Council of Women if I remember rightly, were supportive of it. Some of them wanted to have caveats around it, but it was just about really a matter of all or nothing, you know; you can’t just sort of cherry pick pieces off it. And I think eventually the public, because we’d actually been through – the country and the world, I guess, had been through – very, very comprehensive debates around things like HIV and AIDS and finally getting that right. It was not a gay disease, you know. I mean, there were so many people around who were preferring that it just belonged to them and it would never affect us; it’s not true of course. But I think because in the New Zealand context we had been able to get through those debates and handle it very well, actually, at the end of the day, when it came to addressing these kinds of issues we were probably a little more prepared for a robust debate, no doubt, over something like prostitution reform where common sense, at the end of the day, I think won out. It was politically a nightmare, I think, to try and pull – for Tim particularly – to try and pull together enough support because it was going to be a conscience vote, not a Party vote, in the Parliament; so, each individual MP will make up his or her mind as to whether or not they would vote in favor of it. And so that required a huge amount of lobbying and coercing, I suppose for want of a better term, from Tim and his team to persuade other members of Parliament to not make such a political decision, because it’s easy.... You know, every electorate was probably around saying don’t you vote in favor of that bill! And, so, many MPs put their political lives on the line, I think, in voting in favor of it. I was one of them of course. I was an MP for a rural conservative electorate and they sure as hell didn’t want me to be supporting prostitution reform, and so I took the political risk to vote with my conscience, not for what was politically expedient for me at the time. And that’s not the only bill I voted like that on, I must admit. But it passed its first reading; I can’t remember what the ratio of votes was, but it was probably very slim. But it passed its first reading, which is probably the easiest thing for an MP to agree to be able to do that, because if you get it to a Select Committee then you get the whole public debate feeding into the Select Committee process, and that’s democracy working. And so that was good that we got it over that hurdle into the Select Committee. The Select Committee process went on for a long time. I did not sit on the Select Committee so I wasn’t really present for... I think I might have sat in once or twice to fill in for another MP on that committee to hear submissions. Again, it was robust, difficult debate that occurred. The Select Committee process came to a conclusion. The committee reported back to the House. It came up for its second reading. In that period of time a think tank called The Maxim Institute in Auckland had recruited – and they’re a conservative think tank with a bit of a religious conviction about them – they had recruited a doctor from the United States, a Doctor Melissa Farley, to come over to New Zealand and conduct some research into the sex industry in New Zealand. She only had a very short period of time to do it. And she had done some work and come up with some very suspect calculations and analysis, because like I have mentioned before, there was very little factual data on how the sex industry was operating in New Zealand anyhow. And anyhow, so Dr Melissa Farley lobbied Parliament of course, lobbied all the MPs around Parliament, and she went on a bit of a crusade. And she did come and talk to me at one point and put up some quite compelling arguments and debate which gave me pause to think about my support for the bill. And we were coming up to the second reading debate in the House and she had just timed it, I mean in the same week I think she had come up, and I was angsting over it. And I can’t remember the details of what she told me but she’d thrown some figures in my face and I was sort of taken aback by them, and she a reputable doctor and so on and so forth, and so I took her at her word, et cetera of it. And the word was getting out that I was starting to waver on my support for the second reading, and Tim was very concerned and so was Catherine Healy, and various others were very concerned that I might not vote, that I would vote down the second reading, and if that happened then what message would that send not only to the rest of the politicians in the House but to all the anti prostitution-reform people out there? It would be a huge victory for them. Peter Dunne’s United Future Party had quite a number of MPs in Parliament at that time: Larry Baldock, Murray Smith and various others, but I just remember them particularly because they sat next to me in Parliament. And the word, the scuttlebutt was going about the Parliament that Georgina Beyer might be voting down the second reading, and I remember United Future got very excited because they were dead-against the bill and were getting very excited, and they all rushed to the chamber when it came for second reading, were waiting with bated breath for my speech to torpedo the entire bill by getting up and saying I wouldn’t vote in favor of it. But, because Tim and Catherine and them had heard that I was being persuaded by Dr Melissa Farley that perhaps I shouldn’t support the second reading of the bill, they got a person to come and visit me who had agreed to be part of Melissa Farley’s research team when she got to New Zealand. And that person had spent not much more than a day or two working with her before she decided that this woman had no idea what she was doing, and that what she was doing was skewing and quite inaccurate on what it was she was getting together, and stopped doing the work. So they sent this person, whose name escapes me, to visit me and just tell me what her experience was with Melissa Farley while she went around doing her very quick research on prostitution in New Zealand, and that indeed she had been very misleading in some of the figures that she’d come out with. So I get up to do my speech on the second reading and I started out sounding very grim and dour, and that I don’t know whether it was... and eventually I sort of turned around and much to the shock horror of United Future, in particular, I absolutely slammed – and in fact if I hadn’t had the protection of Parliament, i. e., in the chamber, saying what I said could have been considered to have been defaming Melissa Farley. And of course I voted in favor of the second reading. It had its second reading and went through the committee stage. Without going through all the boring process of how Parliament works, but that bill came in – I think you may need to correct this – but I’m sure it was either... its first reading happened in either 2000 or 2001, but it didn’t pass into law until 2003, and so it transcended an election. We had an election again in 2002, and prostitution reform didn’t get its third and final reading until after that. At its third and final reading, oh God, the atmosphere in Parliament was absolutely electric. The chamber was packed to capacity, upstairs in the gallery and everything. And it was absolutely... we had no idea if it was going to pass. The Parliament was utterly divided on it. You just couldn’t tell where it was going to go. And we get down to the final.... A third reading of a bill in Parliament usually consists of 12 ten-minute speeches, so any 12 people can speak. And I had not intended to speak in that reading, but Tim came to me and said: You’ve got to get up and speak. And I said, well I can’t, the slots have already been allocated. And he said no, someone’s prepared to share five minutes of their time, you know, forfeit five minutes of their time so that you can at least give a five-minute speech. So I was unprepared. I hadn’t prepared for a speech or anything like that, but I agreed and suddenly was very nervous. I can remember another transgender figure, an Auckland figure, Mama Tere Strickland, who’s passed away now, sadly, and Mama Tere had also been recruited by the Maxim Institute in Auckland, and she was against prostitution reform. And she was sort of put up, in my view, to counter me, in Parliament, who was for it. And I can remember Mama Tere sitting in the chamber that day sort of directly opposite, upstairs in the gallery, from where I was sitting, looking at me with daggers and all of that sort of thing. I was shocked that she was against prostitution reform because she was a former sex worker herself and she worked amongst the sex industry, in South Auckland in particular, up in Auckland. And so I was shocked that she was not in favor of it and couldn’t see the merits of what we were trying to do with this bill. My five minute speech came along and I had no idea what I was going to say, and I got up and I just asked the rhetorical question allowed, and I said, “Why do I support this bill?” and I just went off into this probably three-and-a-half minutes of the most fabulous Parliamentary theatre that you’ve seen: I support this bill for all the prostitutes who I’ve ever known who were dead before the age of 20. I support this bill because I cannot stand looking at the hypocrisy of a country that cannot look itself in the bloody eye; and on and on and on I went in this powerful, considered, straight from the heart. When I finished my speech and I sat down there was this absolute silence in the chamber. You could have heard a pin drop as everyone sort of took a breath, and then this thunderous ovation, absolutely thunderous ovation. Most people in the gallery rose to their feet. It was the most incredible sort of ovation that a girl’s ever had, you know, in that sort of sense, and it was quite remarkable. But there were a few more speeches to go. Mine was just one of them. Long story short, my speech and the speech by a Pacific Island woman MP, Winnie Laban – now Winnie of course, and she ended up voting for and she put up a very good argument in her third and final reading speech – my speech and Winnie’s speech changed the minds of two, possibly three MPs sitting in the chamber that day, that particular moment, and changed their minds to vote in favor of it. And with that support, and with one abstention from Ashraf Choudhary, one abstention, the Prostitution Reform Act passed on an abstention. You couldn’t get any more slimmer than that. So, it was victory for the Prostitution Reform Act and it passed into law. Well, you know, of course the world was going to fall in. God, this is the end! You know, we’ll become the sex capitol of the world, and da, da, da. Well of course we’re 10 years down the track and nothing of the sort has happened. One of the areas of prostitution reform that unfortunately we did a once-over lightly during the select committee process and did not address at all well is the matter of street prostitution, which has still been a major issue particularly for Hunters Corner in South Auckland, and until the earthquakes also a difficult issue for Manchester Street in Christchurch. But I think there needs to be some amendment around that and I think the sex industry sector has had ample time to tidy that up and meet society halfway about the street prostitution thing. And because they haven’t been able to clean it up I think it’s disgusting and disgraceful the way the street workers are behaving in South Auckland. It’s not necessary to be like that in these more liberal and safer times, so it is a choice that they have had that gets just a bit antisocial. Well, you know, you either use the liberalization and the generosity it has given to that industry or you lose it, and if they don’t watch out it’ll become more punitive. I mean, part of what the Prostitution Reform Act has done has empowered local authorities to designate where sex work can occur – not that it can’t, which is what many local authorities wanted, to just ban it completely. Wake up! In the real world it does not go away simply because you say so. They don’t call it the oldest profession in the world for nothing, so better that you have a grip on it, that there is some regulation around it, and that you are able to monitor it and ensure that people who are either working in the industry or access its services are getting fair and, you know, justice as it comes to pass. But I think.... Oh, and the rest of the world finds if they ever come across these debates in their own countries, often now look toward the New Zealand legislation. It was world leading at the time, scary, and I think we’ve proven in our country that it has not turned out to be the horror that people, that the naysayers to it, thought that it was going to be. Now, we are some islands down at the bottom of the world; geographically our situation is different to that of somewhere like Europe. I think even Sweden’s gone more punitive as opposed to more liberal on prostitution reform in their country. I remember going to Copenhagen to speak at a university conference – I was asked to go and talk about our experience with prostitution reform – and was quite surprised to hear that somewhere like Sweden was going to criminalize clients as opposed to becoming more liberal about it. But the situation in something like Europe is different; they’ve got the Economic Union and the euro and all of that, and they’ve got borders that people can easily cross so the matter of sex trafficking and all of that sort of thing is a very major issue. It’s not quite so... I mean, I think we made some amendments to our Immigration Act here that just doesn’t allow people to flood in just because you can go and be a sex worker in New Zealand and it’s okay. There’d be many of the naysayers out there who’d say: That’s exactly what’s happened. Just look at Auckland and look at all the Asian prostitutes and things up there like that. No, people fulfill... you cannot get residency and everything here just because you want to be a sex worker; sorry, it doesn’t work like that. We did put measures around that in the Immigration Act through amendments so that you can’t come to New Zealand just like that. I think we’ve got a working population in New Zealand of around 6,000, perhaps, who are in the sex industry. And the sex industry is more than just prostitution of course. And as distasteful as it may be to many people I think that the way New Zealand has handled sex work and prostitution is an intelligent and common-sense approach, which is not being ignored by archaic laws of the past, that there is protection there for all involved, and that with liberalization comes a huge amount of responsibility, too. And so yeah, there it is. You know, a lot of people still ask me now do you still stand by your support for prostitution reform? And my answer is yes, of course I do. I’d be a bit of a bloody hypocrite if I turned around now and said oh, no, I don’t think I should have supported that. Of course I do. You know, I hated prostitution myself, I hated working in it. You know, I don’t like it, but for myself and some of the experiences that I had as a prostitute I hope that people who work in the sex industry these days never have to endure what I and many of my generation and those who’ve gone before us had to endure, with nowhere to go for help or safety. Gareth: Within the space of a year or so we also had the Civil Union bill come in, and I know it’s a bit of a long jump to go from prostitution to civil union, but I mean that was another... [interrupted] Georgina: It’s not such a long jump because we dealt with... that particular government dealt with two.... Well actually, again, civil union became a government bill but it started out as Tim Barnett’s members’ bill. And it wasn’t that it necessarily had to be civil union, it’s just that when we debated around what to go for, as opposed to marriage, et cetera, and amending the Marriage Act and so on and so forth; we did have that debate during civil union, and all of that. But a lot of people would sort of say, ah, social engineering, and whether it be prostitution reform and then what became civil unions there were both venal and divisive debates that occurred at the time. And I don’t think that the gay community in New Zealand, and certainly the gay-friendly community in New Zealand, ever thought that we would see the kind of debate again that we had endured through Homosexual Law Reform in the 1980s, but sure enough our detractors of the day had just crept away somewhere and they came out full force when civil union came along. People wanted to play real politics with the civil union thing, and of course it had the emergence of outfits like the Destiny Church and Brian Tamaki and all the Christian conservative right-wing fundamentalists who found a platform by which they could jump on. And to further liberalize already somewhat liberalized gay related matters was just beyond the pale for them, so they were pushing and talking about family values and, look, this country’s going down the tubes, we’ve got prostitution reform and now they want the gays to be able to get married and have civil unions. It was a very venal debate at the time. I can remember during civil unions right from the get go, from its first reading onwards, every day during the debate on civil unions a little group of Exclusive Brethren would come and sit in the gallery at Parliament and they would go in rotas, you know, so you’d have four or five or a few of them, half a dozen of them sitting up in the gallery, just sitting there, passively sitting there, by their presence and the way they dress you knew that they were Exclusive Brethren, and it was just their passive protest, I guess. This is a church organization that apparently doesn’t get involved in politics, but felt so emboldened that they must get involved this time around, and who was to know what they were going to do in 2005. (laughs) But that got found out by the Greens. But anyhow, there they were and every day they came into the chamber, you know, for the afternoon sessions and the evening sessions of Parliament, and I’d sometimes walk into the chamber to go and do my lag in the House or whatever, and I’d see them up there and just to sort of piss them off, really, I’d just wave at them. (cheery voice) Hi! I’m here! And on some occasions I’d actually go up into the gallery and sit down and welcome them into Parliament – Oh, hello! Nice to have you here. I hope you’re enjoying the debate. It’s getting a bit boring isn’t it? And they’d just about recoil in horror that I was within their body space. You know, that was sort of the feeling that I got sometimes. But yes, every day they would turn up until the bill passed. I can remember when the Civil Union bill had its third reading and again the chamber was absolutely packed to capacity, and when the final vote came – again it was a conscience vote of the Parliament – I cannot remember, I think it might have passed... it was a slim, maybe no more than 10 votes maybe, you’d need to go back and check the facts on that, but it was a slim passage for Civil Union on a conscience vote. And when it passed I can remember when the results of the vote were announced in the chamber, the chamber erupted and everyone up in the gallery who were supporters of the bill all flew to their feet, and suddenly there were these little patches of a couple of people who were against the bill and they suddenly felt completely overwhelmed by the amount of people in the chamber that day that were in favor of it. It was another great moment and another great move forward for common sense, really. You know, yes, in the gay community obviously we’re now in the midst of the debate over the marriage-equality legislation that Louisa Wall has got before Parliament at the moment, and I know that there’s been... obviously you’ve had the Bob McCoskries and others, Garth McVicar and people like that, who’ve spoken out against marriage equality, but I do not sense the same degree of moral outrage throughout the country over marriage equality as there was over civil union. Although even in the gay community there’s a preference for marriage rather than civil union, if we had not had civil union it wouldn’t have provided the leverage that marriage equality is just going to – it’s going to be a doddle, I’m sure it’s going to pass very easily in comparison to civil unions, in comparison the Homosexual Law Reform, so incrementally over time these things change. But I do give you this warning: In some respects law is easy to change. Attitude takes generations, and that complacency can never be allowed to pervade once you think that you’ve got something like that. It only takes a change of government and a vote by a simple majority to repeal these things, so don’t think that once these things pass that they’re just there forever. Don’t get complacent about that. Attitude: well I congratulate New Zealand for their attitude regarding marriage and civil unions and such things as being something not to be afraid of anymore, that the fabric of society is not going to unravel as some would want you to believe, simply because you provide equality for all its citizens, not exclusivity for some of its citizens. Gareth: Did you ever sit on any of the select committee hearings for the Civil Union? Georgina: One. I sat once down in Christchurch. I filled in for a... because the Justice and Electoral Select Committee I think saw the Civil Union bill through, and it so happened that Tim Barnett chaired the Justice and Electoral Select Committee, as well as he was the Senior Government Whip, I think, at the time, too. He was a whip at least, anyhow. And I went to Christchurch one day to fill in for select committee hearings down there. I was barely at the table five minutes before I was spitting outrage at some submitter who’d come forth who spewed out this absolute venal tirade. He was absolutely horrified to be sitting and having to submit to the likes of me, and have Tim Barnett sitting at the head of the table. He just thought it was outrageous. And just some of the horrible, horrible things; I had to leave the room because I would have disgraced myself by just going right off, and that would be most unseemly for a member of Parliament to do that. But I was, you know, deeply offended by this man, and he was deadly serious. He was almost shaking with rage that people like me, particularly, and Tim were even in our Parliament, were even allowed to be. You know, this was the kind of... and I thought, oh, I thought all that sort of stuff was gone, but it wasn’t. And if there’s one thing I’ll say in their defense is that I will defend their right to... even Brian Tamaki and Destiny Church and that horrible Enough is Enough march that they had through Wellington.... You know, that march... that man had no idea what effect that that particular protest that Destiny Church had in Wellington where 8,000 of them turned up to Parliament to protest against civil unions and uphold family values. And they held this sort of evangelical meeting out in front of Parliament where I stood there for hours protesting with my rainbow flag, standing on the steps of Parliament. And it felt like you were at a Nuremberg rally, that sort of felt like all the fist punching in the air, the black uniform thing that they were wearing and all of this kind of stuff. It was horrible, and I actually think instead of helping their cause he and the Destiny Church helped our cause because when the public saw that they were offended by the way he presented himself, not what he was debating. I didn’t agree with what he was debating, I would defend his right to say it and to do it and to protest – we live in a goddamned democracy. But the way they presented themselves, not only to Parliament but, obviously through media, to the nation, the nation was not impressed with that and they did not like the imagery that he presented that day. I had people in Lambton Quay in offices who were emailing my office as they watched the march go through town, who were absolutely outraged and insulted and offended at what they were seeing, and they were in disbelief. And they were emailing in their support. I heard of people who were brought to tears on the street when they saw this imagery: Men and boys marching in Roman formation down Lambton Quay and down toward Parliament, punching the air like, you know, doing Nazi salutes – that’s what it sort of looked like, that’s not what they were meaning, even if it was black-power salutes – and this, “Enough is enough! Enough is enough!” That was a pretty powerful day. And when I compare that protest and the imagery it portrayed and its intention, and I compare that to the hikoi over the Foreshore and Seabed, which was probably the largest protest that’s ever gone to Parliament: angry but awesome and dignified, and that was palpable, that was the hikoi for the Foreshore and Seabed. I give points to the hikoi for Foreshore and Seabed over and above what Brian Tamaki and Destiny Church were trying to present over civil unions. And again, the world did not fall in because we passed civil unions, and indeed if anything it’s probably sadly embarrassing that not that many people really, in the scheme of things, have used the legislation for civil unions. I mean, maybe a couple thousand at most, fifteen hundred maybe have used it. And civil unions of course was not exclusive, it is inclusive, it was for anybody who wanted to have their partnership solemnized in that respect. And let’s remember that marriage, at the end of the day, is a civil action, it is a marriage license – that is civil. But the gay community and others want to go for marriage equality, and that’s fine, I can respect that but I’m also perfectly comfortable with civil union. I think getting pernickety is up to each individual person how they feel about that. I don’t have a huge amount of respect for the institution of marriage in itself, and why do I think that the churches should win out because it’s the connotation that marriage has. Of course marriage is not about the church. The church part of marriage is an add-on. It’s a ceremonial thing. It is to acknowledge that religious side of things if that’s your persuasion, but marriage technically, legally and every other way at the end of the day is a certificate of registration that you are married, and that it’s a legal solemnization thing, and that’s a civil matter – civil union. Gareth: During both the Civil Unions and also the Prostitution Reform how were your Labor colleagues? I mean, was it a supportive caucus? Georgina: No. No, not by any means. The leader supported them of course, so that was helpful – Helen Clark. But no, there were elements of Labor, most of whom you just need to go back and look at how people voted in the Parliament over that to find out. But there are a few names that I can think of who were against it: John Tamihere, Clayton Cosgrove, Dover Samuels, Ross Robertson, who else? oh yeah, probably a few others but those are a few that just come off the top of my head at the moment. Gareth: And on a personal level how did you deal with that? Georgina: Well, you’ve got to respect that these matters of conscience, it is their conscience they’ve got to vote on. Obviously some MPs made a political decision because, you know, whenever you hear an MP on a conscience vote say, “I must go and canvas my electorate first and find out what the feedback is and what they think,” fair enough, that’s fine. But at the end of the day should you actually be swayed simply because you think, well if I don’t do what they want me to I might be out of my seat at the next election? And that, I’m sorry, is the cold, hard reality of it for many MPs. And there are some of them that, nope, couldn’t care less about it. The piece of legislation may not be that important to them, they’re going to go with their electorate and vote against it. Now, my electorate in Wairarapa were definitely against prostitution reform, they were definitely against civil unions. I voted with my conscience and what I believed and I took the political risk and voted in favor of those bills. For another example, Foreshore and Seabed. My electorate definitely wanted me to vote in favor of the Foreshore and Seabed legislation, but I as a Maori did not want to vote in favor of the Foreshore and Seabed. It was not a conscience vote, it was a Party-whipped vote, and although I resisted and would have left Parliament with Tariana Turia if I’d had the same choices as she had, I couldn’t and I didn’t and I had to vote in favor of it against my will. I was backed into a corner over it. I spat the dummy about it, I expressed my displeasure with having to vote in favor of it, and all of that. But again, I had to against my will vote in favor of it, really I suppose at the end, because it was a Party vote and not a conscience vote and my Party wanted me to vote in favor of it, my electorate wanted me to vote in favor of it. But my gut feeling as a Maori: No this is wrong, what we’re doing is not right, there’s got to be another way around this particular issue. And yeah, it was horrible. In fact the Foreshore and Seabed was the beginning of the end of my political career, and a complete change of my attitude about being in Labor, and it was the issue that prevented my ever getting promoted in Labor because I’d proved that I could be disobedient, you know, and not afraid to express my feeling about it. And yeah, I find for me the Foreshore and Seabed was the worst thing I ever had to do in Parliament. Everything else, prostitution reform, civil union, all of that, not a problem, but that legislation, it absolutely threw me into a... I was disillusioned after that. I hated it; it was terrible. And I’ll never forgive Labor for making me have to make those choices. And you know what? On the Foreshore and Seabed how vindicated did you think I felt when Michael Cullen came to leave Parliament at the 2008 election, and the week he’s leaving Parliament he finally acquiesced and acknowledged that perhaps Labor had got it wrong on the Foreshore and Seabed. And I can remember hearing that on the radio and yelling out to myself at home at the time, yes! I was right. That I’d felt guilty all that time since then about my not being cooperative at that time over it, and then finally to hear one of our leaders at the time, toward the end of his Parliamentary career acknowledge that we got it wrong on Foreshore and Seabed. So when the newly elected National government, along with the Maori Party and others, repealed the Foreshore and Seabed Act and replaced it with the Takutai Moana Marine and Coastal Area Amendment bill, which is probably about one sentence more different than the Foreshore and Seabed, I went to Parliament as a former member and sat in the chamber that day to watch the third reading of that Takutai Moana bill go through, just so. Because when you sit in the chambers as a former member you’re sitting right there with the opposition benches, so I’m there with the old Labor colleagues looking at me and wondering why I was there, because I was sitting in opposition now. And I came back just so that I could see that bill, see Foreshore and Seabed get repealed and chucked out, and just for my own self-satisfaction to sit there and go, see, you all gave me a hard time at that time, but at the end of the day I was right. I was right.

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TITLE: Georgina Beyer - places and personalities
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VOICES: Georgina Beyer
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 10 o'clock closing; 1970s; 1980s; Alfies 1; Ali Baba's nightclub; Anita Daniels; Aotearoa New Zealand; Arthur Baysting; Auckland; Australia; Big Teds; Billie Holiday; Bistro bar; Bloomers Review (Alfies); Brett Sheppard; Brian Le Gros; Burgundy's (Auckland); Ca d'Oro (Auckland); Caluzzi Bar and Cabaret (Auckland); Carmen Miranda; Carmen Rupe; Carmen's Curio Shop (second location); Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Carol de Winter; Chrissy Witoko; Clown's restaurant (Auckland); Club Exotic; Club Exotique; Cuba Street; Dana DePaul; Dana de Milo; Debbie Dorday; Dinah Priestley; Dolores del Rio; Egyptian Tearooms; El Matador; Emmanuel Papadopoulos snr; Evergreen Coffee House; Family Bar (Auckland); Georgina Beyer; Ghuznee Street; Great Northern Hotel (Auckland); Hole in the Wall; Howe Street public toilet (Auckland); Hutt boys; Imperial Hotel; Jacquie Grant; Johnny Coolman; Les Girls (Auckland); Les Girls (Sydney); Malcolm McLaren; Marcus Craig; Marlene Dietrich; Michael Fowler; Mojo's (Auckland); New Zealand Party; Nicole Duval; Out (magazine); Out! Centre Bookshop; Pasi Daniels; Phil Warren; Powder Puff (referred to as the Powder Poof, Wellington); Rainton Hastie; Red Mole (performance group); Rion McKenzie; Robert Jones; Ron Brierley; Roy Stacey; Royal Oak Hotel; Salvation Army Citadel; San Francisco Bath House; Sorrento Coffee Lounge; Staircase nightclub; Starlight Express (musical); Stilboestrol; Sunset Strip; Surgery of Dr Thomas Ongley; Sydney; Sydney by Night (bus tour); Tavern bar (Royal Oak Hotel); The Balcony / Le Balcon; The Purple Onion; Thomas Ongley; Tony Burton; Tony Katavich; Vivian Street; Wally Martin; Wellington; White House strip club (Auckland); alcohol license; arrest; art-a-rama; art-a-rama of poses; batique; bedroom gymnastics; boarding house; breast augmentation; burlesque; cabaret; coffee bar; deviant; drag; exploitation; felonious intent; finances; gender dysphoria; gender reassignment surgery; homosexual law reform; hormone breast; hospitality; intolerance; language; law; media; murder; nightclub; objectionable material; peep show; plucked; polari; police; psychosexual disorder; queen; sailor; saloon door; sex work; sickness benefit; sly grog; snake dancing; soliciting; sprung; striptease; teacup; the dole (unemployment benefit); tranny; transcript online; transexual; transgender; trick strip; unspring; velvet painting; venues; wig
DATE: 27 January 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 27 January 2013
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Georgina Beyer: Well I came onto the scene, so to speak, and I’m talking about the twilight world of the Vivian Street scene I guess, in 1976. I had had a part-time job at the Royal Oak Hotel, which was a major hostielry of the day in Wellington, which had a couple of fascinating bars to it. One was famously known as The Bistro Bar, which was populated by an eclectic mix of life, everything from drag queens to trannies to prostitutes – male and female – sailors, it was quite a sort of rough bar, really, but full of all of this color of life. Next to The Bistro bar was a smaller bar called the Tavern Bar, and that was virtually exclusively a gay bar, gay men and women, but probably more predominately gay men. In fact trannies weren’t particularly welcome inside the bar, but we did go in there from time to time. The rest of the hotel was conventional. Upstairs was a bistro sort of restaurant bar, which was where one of my flatmates, Rion McKenzie, worked as a maître d’, and a lounge bar and a typical hotel of the day in Wellington. But a lot of nightlife emanated from particularly The Bistro Bar and The Tavern Bar. And it was on the corner of Cuba Street and Dixon Street in Wellington – it now no longer exists, it was pulled down quite a lot of years ago – opposite what was then known as the James Smiths department store. And famously there was a jewelers shop on the Cuba street frontage of the Royal Oak Hotel where a dreadful murder of the jeweler happened. I think his name was Paul Miet, which was quite an infamous murder of the day happened there. There used to be a routine when we had 10:00 closing that the bars would empty and everyone would sort of head on up Cuba Street heading eventually toward Vivian Street area. And there were other hotels: The Imperial, and... oh God, I can’t remember the names of some of the others at the moment, and various nightclubs. Gareth Watkins: Just to keep on with The Royal Oak, how did those two bars work in a time when homosexuality was illegal? How did they get on with, say, the police? Georgina: Well, the police, yes, would be ever present certainly around closing time or anything like that. I think they sort of turned a bit of a blind eye. There wasn’t a hell of a lot in the way of arrests and that kind of thing. Yes, for drunk and disorderly behavior, of which there was quite a bit, and so they would be there for that kind of thing. But I don’t personally recall any arrests or such for being gay or anything at that time, so I’m not quite sure what the philosophy on the ground for the police was necessarily around that scene in those venues at that time. There were... I mean, up on the street scene, yes, we would be arrested from time to time and processed, end up in front of the District Court on a Monday morning, I suppose and fined usually. I got plucked once, as they call it, for frequenting with felonious intent, deemed as a rogue and a vagabond. And that was sort of a fairly standard kind of arrest-worthy thing of behavior because trannies at least, anyhow, they found it very difficult to be able to charge them with soliciting and prostitution I guess, because they didn’t quite know how to fit men who were dressed up as women who were selling themselves, and it was soliciting that was illegal, not so much prostitution as such. And so we would get picked up occasionally and we just sort of figured that it was our 50 buck fine. Well, you know, that’s a cheap tax really. And the ignominy I suppose of having to spend a weekend in the cells, which was unpleasant, and we were treated quite nastily I guess by the police who weren’t always friendly to us. Gareth: In what way? Georgina: Well, you can imagine a tranny who may turn up on a Friday night in the cells certainly wouldn’t be given anything for like shaving. You’d be wearing the clothes you’d gone out in on Friday night. You’d be put in with men and so you ran the risk of any kind of abuse and violence and sexual violence that might occur over the weekend during that. You’d look like crap when you turned up in front of the judge on Monday morning quite often. But it was just par for the course. It was just the way it was. Sometimes some queens were particularly targeted by some police who just had this innate hatred of such people and would just fall short of being incredibly brutal to them, but very mean and nasty and threatening. And yeah, it was really sort of unpleasant, but that was just part of what you had to deal with in those days at that time and it was no use squealing to anyone for help me! help me! because you wouldn’t get it. And you just tolerated it, I guess, at the time. These days of course I’d throw the book at them and that wouldn’t be allowed to occur. But some of the venues that we used to go to: The Sunset Strip which was owned and run by various people, but particularly Chrissy Witoko, who was a major figure in the transgender scene in Wellington at the time, was certainly a contemporary of Carmen’s – in fact probably predated Carmen as far as owning nightlife establishments. Although I never went to it she had a place called The Powder Puff, and we all called it the Powder Poof, and then had an interest in The Sunset Strip, which is a major nightclub which attracted not only those of us from the night scene I guess, but all the sailors and perhaps those who lived, you know, in the twilight world, the fringes of the criminal community, and other such alternative people. And don’t forget, after 10:00 closing sly grogging and all of that sort of stuff would be going on in these establishments. So it wasn’t exclusive to the so called undesirables you know, there’d be other people who would come along and go to those nightclubs too. There was Ali Baba’s, later known as The Cave, which was in Cuba Street. It’s now a band venue I think called The San Francisco Bathhouse. That’s still there. There was Johnny Coolman had a couple of establishments, but those names escape me too. The strip clubs on Vivian Street at the time were The Club Exotique, The Purple Onion, The Hole in the Wall, were three sort of major ones. And also Chrissy Witoko eventually had a much beloved sort of café, I guess you’d call it, called The Evergreen, which after Carmen’s Coffee Lounge era had finished and closed and Carmen had left New Zealand and gone to live in Australia, Chrissy opened up The Evergreen which was on Vivian Street there, and that ran for many years and became quite a favorite haunt of, not only of us all, but it was sort of a replacement for the Carmen Coffee Lounge era. Carmen’s Coffee Lounge had originally opened at 86 Vivian Street. The building no longer exists, it’s right next door to the Salvation Army Citadel in Vivian Street and I think actually the site now is occupied by... The New Zealand Film School is now built there at the moment. And Carmen had acquired that building and ran it as a boarding house to begin with and then until she earned enough money I think to open it up as a coffee lounge. So she had a coffee lounge downstairs and she had rooms upstairs, which later became where some of our business occurred, if I can put it like that. She liked to cater to a wide variety of clientele. Gareth: Hey, just before we get on to Carmen I’m just wondering do you know more about the history of Chrissy Witoko, like where she came from? That name has come up a number of times. Georgina: Well, yes. No. Chrissy is a major figure. She hid her light under a bushel, really. She wasn’t one for seeking any kind of overt publicity. She was quite opposite to Carmen in that regard. But she was a major, major figure as important, if not more important in some ways, than Carmen. And as I said, Carmen was a PR machine. I mean, you know, she was just an absolute PR machine. But Chrissy had – and similar things, you know – at least she provided places of safety and of work and of employment and to be able to be who you are. Chrissy I think Maori, of course – Witoko. She’s from the east coast, probably Ngāti Porou, Ngāti Kahungunu, I’m not sure exactly what her tribal affiliations were originally. I understand that she had suffered some terrible abuse, child abuse, sexual abuse when she was younger. I don’t know what relevance that might have in her later life. A strong, large woman, but while firm she had a huge streak of benevolence about her too, which was really helpful I guess at the end of the day. And a great person for hospitality – a lot like Carmen in that regards – and to provide a sort of safe venue for people to be and for all walks of life to feel welcome in. Yeah, that was sort of what I knew of Chrissy. Gareth: Do you know how Chrissy got into the hospitality business? Georgina: No I don’t. No, I don’t know how she got into it, only that I think it was her first establishment in business was this Powder Puff place, which I understand was sort of coffee bar-ish, which was popular. I mean it was part of New Zealand culture at that time. When, precisely, I’m not sure; I’m guessing it must have been in the ‘60s that that must have been happening. I mean, another transgender person called Jacquie Grant had a takeaway bar, I understand, for a while. And then of course Carmen emerged, but then Carmen burst forth, you know, with her establishment The Coffee Lounge and The Balcony, which was a cabaret show that she had, a mixture of drag queens and straight girls and guys. In fact my flatmate, Rion McKenzie, who I talked about from The Royal Oak Hotel, he did this “Sweet Transvestite” act. I can remember toward the end of the late ‘70s, and before The Balcony closed.... The Balcony was down in Victoria Street. Actually it no longer exists as a building anymore; the new Wellington Public Library is now on the site. And my flatmate Rion used to do this “Sweet Transvestite” act there in the late ‘70s. And the last sort of troupe that I can remember working there before it closed down was Red Mole, which was quite a well known and well respected sort of entertainment group including Arthur Baysting, famously. Gareth: Can you describe for me what the atmosphere in The Balcony was like? Georgina: Oh, well you walked up a relatively long flight of stairs from street level and got to the top and there would be the counter to get in. You walked into the venue, a wide open room with a catwalk T-style stage, tables and chairs for seating, table service as far as drinks and light refreshments and things like that were served. A bit of a Las Vegas style show I suppose, sort of feathers and bras and G-strings, and the drag queens that worked in the place – or transgenders if you want to call them that – were always very beautiful, exotic, beautifully costumed, most of them were some with sex changes, some had their breast augmentation done. They were very unspring, as we called them. In other words you couldn’t tell that they were.... And this was sort of the gimmick, I suppose, that ordinary, straight hetero audience members would find it difficult to pick who was the drag queen and who was the real girl. And so sometimes a man might be smitten with a beautiful creature dancing exotically, either doing lip syncing songs or doing comedy sketches or those kinds of acts – burlesque, I guess, is really the style of the entertainment that went on there – and then you’d always get one of the queens that after they’d done their act they would whip off their wig and that would be the sort of gimmick, you know. That wasn’t an unusual form of entertainment. I think in those days it was sort of titillating and filled curiosity factors and that sort of thing, but it was classy. You know, it wasn’t sort of.... It was nothing like a strip club, and they didn’t really strip; they might get topless and stuff like that, but it had class. It was burlesque. Yeah, it was more burlesque than just an outright strip show or anything like that. Gareth: What about the clientele? Georgina: Oh, a mixture. It’s a bit like the clientele that would go and see Les Girls in Sydney. You know, cabaret shows and dinner shows and things like that were not uncommon in that era as a form of just general entertainment. This just had the added twist that its proprietor was Madame Carmen and that you didn’t know whether or not the girls on stage were real or not. Yeah, so all walks of life, couples. Yeah, just all walks of life; there was no particular discrimination about that, and people were just going for a good night out. It was non-threatening in that sense. That wasn’t sort of overtly threatening or anything like that, otherwise it wouldn’t have lasted for the many years that it did. Like I say, it was sort of similar in some respects to Les Girls in Sydney, which was hugely respectable as far as an entertainment venue was concerned. I don’t know whether the bus tours used to.... You know, in Australia and Sydney and Les Girls there was a Sydney by Night bus tour that people would go on, and one of the places that they would go to for a period of the tour would be to Les Girls, so Carmen’s Balcony was a bit similar in that sense. I think probably the only show of that sort in Wellington, that’s for sure. There were other shows in Auckland: Mojo’s, and Auckland had a Les Girls as well, and probably some other shows but those were the two most well-known ones at that era. Gareth: And what about the size of the audience? Was it packed or was it pretty thin? Georgina: Well I wasn’t there all the time, of course, and on the times I went, yeah, it was pretty well attended. Toward the end of the era of The Balcony it became less and less so, you know, the audience more spartan. And I’m not sure why The Balcony closed, perhaps it just wasn’t making any money any more, but more than likely the lease on the premises probably ran out. Gareth: And you mentioned earlier about Carmen’s International Coffee Lounge. Did that precede The Balcony or was that something that came after The Balcony? Georgina: I think it preceded The Balcony, and then essentially at about the same time. But yeah, I’m not sure which came first entirely but I’m pretty sure that the Coffee Lounge came first and then The Balcony. Gareth: Can you tell me about The Coffee Lounge? Georgina: Oh, well, The Coffee Lounge (laughs). First of all you’d have been struck by its façade from out in the street. It was two-storied, and like I said, the ground floor was The Coffee Lounge and the upstairs was where we entertained clients and Carmen had had as a bit of a boarding house and sometimes lived up there. The façade had been painted in sort of Mughal style minarets and very exotic sort of Eastern, Middle Eastern sort of exotica I suppose, and very colorful and bold, which stuck out like a sore thumb on the otherwise dour sort of street that it was down at 86 Vivian Street. And remember, we were right next door to the Salvation Army Citadel there. And it had an alleyway that ran down beside it also, where you had street-level entry into the upstairs part of the building. You walked inside this small confined front door into a little entry, I suppose, and then there’d be a sliding door and you would go in there and that’s where you paid your ticket – you know, paid to get in. Always it was personned by some exotic looking queen, or intimidating, whichever way you looked at it. And then you walked into The Coffee Lounge, which was sort of fairly small and intimate I suppose when you think about it. But all red comes to mind as a color that predominated around the place; big huge gold and red Chinese lanterns with tassels, big gold tassels hanging on them; exotic wall hangings and tapestries, paintings of Madame Carlie [sp?], those velvet paintings, you know – Nefertiti, that kind of thing; yes, lots of sort of lushness really, in that sense; and dimmish sort of lighting; formica tables and chairs and things like that, and just your sugar bowls and all of that sort of stuff on the table. You went through into a kitchen area which led on to where the toilet area was. So, if you were on your way to the bathroom you’d probably come across doing the dishes the fabulous Lola, a tall, slim pakeha – I think she was of Lebanese or some kind of race like that – always dressed in sort of Audrey Hepburn short dresses and short sleeves, wearing long evening gloves, with flaming red hair, wigs on and eyelashes out to here kind of thing. And she’d be there washing the dishes with her evening gloves on, and she’d have plastic gloves over the top of her evening gloves in order to wash the dishes and stuff like that. And she’d always go, “Hello, darling,” as anyone, especially a handsome-looking man, might wander by to go to the toilet, and she’d sort of leer, while she’s doing the dishes, at you. She was one character that I can think of. A wonderful, eclectic mix of fabulous people really. All sorts of people came to Carmen’s Coffee Lounge: high brows, low brows and everything in between, everything from politicians to entertainers to businessmen, public servants, all sorts. It wasn’t without its troubles from time to time. Sometimes the Hutt boys, as we’d call them, would arrive into town for the evening to sort of go about doing a bit of queer bashing. They would all front up at some point at The Coffee Lounge and get ready to have a bit of a rumble, except they’d get confronted by, well, the queens we called the Big Teds, which would include Chrissy Witoko and Gypsy and various others, you know, who were big sort of, and 6 foot 4. It didn’t matter how much lipstick and what nice frock they’ve got on, they can turn back into the men they were born to be, and usually thumped over these Hutt boys when they came in and sort of earned quite a bit of respect and never got troubled again, not in that sense. In fact they would sort of end up becoming our protectors in lots of ways. That was just sort of the way it was. Yeah, for Wellington, I guess in those days it was quite an exotic and sort of naughty place to go to simply because.... And the wonderful Madame Carmen, of course. And Carmen was a fabulous hostess. She always engaged with her customers and the clientele that went in there; sort of made you feel very personable. She seemed to speak to you not just sort of past you, always making sure that you’re being looked after and taken care of. She had funny little rituals about, you know, people would come in there for certain types of entertainment, bedroom gymnastics so to speak, and there were ways and means by which you could signal that you were perhaps interested in one of her girls that might be floating around by playing a little game with the teacups, because of course you weren’t allowed. It was like I said, 6:00 swill time and all of that, that booze wasn’t allowed to be sold although I dare say there was a little bit of under the counter booze going on, which was where you made a few extra bucks. And of course if that’s a place where you can get liquor, well you’re going to get all sorts of people turn up to get it at that time of night when legally you weren’t meant to be selling it. Carmen gave me my first client, actually, when I first ended up on the scene there. And I always used to wonder how Carmen could walk into The Coffee Lounge, and since there was only one backdoor exit and she hadn’t gone out there, how the hell she could just disappear into thin air around the place. Well, it didn’t take long to realize that behind one of the large tapestries that were on the wall was an internal door that went to upstairs. And so the key was that a client, you know, would be sorted, the client would go outside and down to the alleyway to the outside door, and we would whip in behind the tapestry into the internal door and meet our client in the passageway and go upstairs to do the business. It took me a while to realize how Carmen could appear and disappear just like that, but that’s how it used to happen. Gareth: And you were saying about the teacups, there was something with the teacups. Georgina: Mmm! I can’t quite remember how the routine goes, but say you have a cup and a saucer, and if you’d have the... which would be there when you arrived, you know. Depending on what you wanted then you would either put the saucer on top of the cup or turn the cup over or have it on its side, it meant various things. I’m not quite sure how all of that worked, but Carmen sort of understood. And whether or not that meant that you wanted one of those girls or whether you wanted that girl or whether you wanted a bit of sly grog. Carmen, strangely enough, never smoked and never drank, herself. You know, was never like that. Gareth: That must have been quite fun for your first time as a customer going in there, and you wouldn’t necessarily know about the cups and just like the [crosstalk]. Georgina: No, no. And of course when you’re a new queen on the scene you’re at the bottom of the rung, and so you’ve got all the other seniors around us who sort of take precedent. But while they could be a bit nasty to you from time to time it was all sort of... you know, you knew that you were able to be comfortable in this place. There were other queens like you around and as long as you didn’t step on their turf or pinch their clients or take their livies or their charities or anything like that you’d be sort of all right. And Carmen, she could see that you were a newbie and, you know, would sort of be helpful I guess by providing you with a client, because don’t forget we weren’t able to get the dole. We weren’t able to get normal regular employment, so that’s why you sort of tended to be forced into being a prostitute and earning money that way. And so how do you? You know, good God, I’m 16, 17 years old, and I’m not that worldly yet; I’ve got to learn very quickly, as you walk into that sort of scene. And so on the one hand you’re sort of looked after and kept an eye on and cared for; on the other hand you’re not a sort of molly-coddled either because you’ve got to shape up pretty quickly to learn the ways of the street life. Gareth: So, can you remember your first client? Georgina: Yes I can because Carmen gave him to me, and sorted me with him, and that’s where I found out about behind the tapestry and upstairs. Yes, and I wasn’t really quite sure what I was meant to do, but soon learnt. I hated it. It was terrible. It was awful, but you know, pop some more pills, have another drink, and wipe it all – you know, all of the unpleasant part of it. Gareth: How would you describe Carmen? Georgina: Oh, a larger than life figure; fabulously hospitable; a huge amount of mana; a dry wit; caring; generous in many respects; a bit of an entrepreneur and certainly a PR machine, absolutely, once she got onto it. She only started to be Carmen because when she started out in her entertainment career she was beautiful, slim, exotic, did exotic dancing, snake dancing, things like that, hula dancing, and part of her gimmick was that she was absolutely unspring, but that she wasn’t detected as being a tranny. And then she was outed. She was outed I think by Wally Martin, I may stand to be corrected by that, and that was sort of a little bit devastating to her entertainment path at the time. But on the other hand she decided to embrace it and sort of really fully came out, and I think the Carmen persona as we have come to know her, the larger than life, the beautiful loud gowns, the three wigs, and the whole botanical gardens in her hair – the roses and all of that sort of stuff – you know, the image came to pass and she embraced it and was like that just about all the time and became absolutely identifiable. And obviously she could see the marketing value in it all. And it was good for her business and sort of marked her out as something different from whatever else was around, so in that way she was very entrepreneurial but had decided at some point that she would just embrace that she is who she is and it’s no use trying to hide it under a bushel, and be a famous tranny. And she was. I think that that attitude opened an awful lot of doors way down the track for many of us in the future after that, about visibility and having to tolerate... I mean, let’s be real here, it was not universally accepted at all, and the ridicule and the demeaning nature with which people would treat her and others like her. You know, these were the days when it was illegal for men to be wearing women’s clothing out in public, and in order to go and do your entertainment gigs, even if you were doing a drag act or whatever, you could only be dressed in drag at the venue you were performing. You weren’t allowed to walk in the street dressed up as a woman; you could be arrested for that. And this is the era when homosexuals were put in jail. You know, two years I think was the sentence for being caught. And so it was a very scary time as far as that was concerned, and so for someone like Car to just bite the bullet and be out and be who she is, and then become sort of a figure of curiosity, yes, but also of course the media loved it, and because of her nature as a nice, good person, she wasn’t sort of a stereotype nasty sort of sexual deviant, as people would have thought. I mean, they would have still thought she was a sexual deviant, but somehow they’re bamboozled by the sheer force of her persona and her warmth and her hospitality. And let’s not forget now that her establishments were now becoming quite part and parcel of the nightlife scene of Wellington in general. I mean, and the high brows and the low brows were all going there, so there was a certain amount of respectability, and that any run-ins with the law, sometimes whether it would be her personally or whether it be some of her girls that might get into a spot of bother, suddenly pushed the boundaries of some laws that ended up being changed because they didn’t know how to deal with transgender people in the legal context. It was sort of quite a time of realization and change. And not just Carmen, of course; I mean, God, we always talk about Carmen, but there were others, her contemporaries at the time: the Chrissy Witokos and all the girls that ever worked for her. A lot of the girls that worked for her ripped her off, too. You know, it was sort of a dollar for me and two dollars for Carmen; a dollar for me and two dollars for Carmen. It wasn’t unknown for Carmen, if some queen had just come back into town, and Carmen would just sort of say, oh, so I paid for your new bust job have I? You know, and that kind of thing. But you know, so I think that she was exploited in that way because Carmen wasn’t really very worldly as far as finance and business and money was concerned. Like I said, she was a PR machine. She was an entrepreneur in that sense and so I think she relied on the honesty and integrity of other people not to sort of... she wasn’t stupid, but you know. And sure, she made and lost fortunes, really, because she didn’t understand, and when she did get into spots of bother eminent lawyers and people in the legal world and accountants would help her out. She became quite respected in her own way amongst the business community of Wellington at the time, and if she did get into a spot of bother over things you’d get lawyers like Roy Stacey and various other people. Later on, Bob Jones of course backing her for a bit of public adulation when she ran for the Mayoralty of Wellington, which was not her idea, it was more Bob’s idea. But yeah, an amazing person really in lots of ways. Gareth: How did Carmen and Chrissy get on? Georgina: Oh, very well! Yes, yes, there was no sort of fierce competition or anything like that, no not at all. I mean, the world was too small in those days for that kind of thing to happen. And no, I think they were amicable and friendly and they both had a compassionate streak about them, so you know, it went on all right. There was no particular queen wars went on as far as I know. Gareth: You mentioned that Wally Martin kind of outed her. How did that happen? What happened then? Georgina: I’m not sure exactly how it happened, I think Dana de Milo would be able to answer that a little bit better, but at some point, yeah. Wally Martin, for those who need to be reminded, was, I guess you’d call him a strip king of New Zealand. He and Rainton Hastie opened up the first strip clubs in New Zealand, and Auckland in particular, and Carmen had been involved somehow up there at that time. And yeah, so Wally Martin on many, many years later tried to open up another club down in Wellington for a while, I can’t remember what it was called now, but he was sort of getting on a bit then. I can remember in that year when he opened them he had three heart attacks – finally the last one killed him. (laughs) Yeah, well, bye bye Wally. But yes, I only met him a couple of times myself. But yes, that’s his sort of background and where he sort of fitted in; he’d been, along with Rainton Hastie, what you’d call the strip kings of New Zealand. Gareth: You said just before about three wigs with Carmen. Literally did she wear three wigs at a time? Georgina: Oh, well... (laughs)Gareth: No. Georgina: Well, a wig and a couple of hairpieces, yes. That wasn’t unusual; we all sort of wore our hair like that. This is the days of the beehives and the up-and-down hairdos and as much hair as possible. And of course, as you know, she’s famous for always doing a Billie Holiday look with the flowers in her hair. She liked to model herself, and obviously her name, Carmen Miranda, you know, and other exotic Hollywood stars. You know, she liked the Marlene Dietrich’s, all of those sort of Dolores del Rio, and that was her era, I guess, of icons that she probably aspired to when she was a little boy. Gareth: Did Carmen have any other kind of business interests? Georgina: She did briefly have little tea rooms at the top of Cuba Street called The Egyptian Tea Room. That didn’t last very long. She also briefly located Carmen’s Coffee Lounge, when the lease had finished at 86 Vivian Street, she briefly had a coffee lounge upstairs in Lower Cuba Street, but that was only a temporary venue. And for a while she had a curio shop selling all sorts of curios and things, and that was in Plimmer Steps for a wee while. But those businesses didn’t last very long, maybe a year or so, and that was toward the end of her time in New Zealand before she left to live more permanently in Australia in the early 1980s. Gareth: In talking with a number of other people they’ve mentioned about, I think it was the prostitution arrest that changed the law. It was Carmen, and was it Carol de Winter where at the time they couldn’t prosecute a man for prostitution? Georgina: That’s right, yes. And Carol de Winter of course was a sex change. She was one of the early sex changes she’d had done, and so it presented a conundrum as far as the law was concerned, apparently, at the time, and quite a leading precedent was going to be set here because they couldn’t prosecute her. Yeah, isn’t it ridiculous men couldn’t be.... Well, let’s clarify: prostitution was not illegal, soliciting was, and that’s how they got caught. I don’t know the details of how that case went, but it changed the law, it changed because they hadn’t had to deal with the gender issues that come into it. You know, here is Carol de Winter who has had reassignment surgery now and is physically a woman in that sense, but legally still regarded as a male. Huh? (laughs) It does represent a problem when you’re trying to slap someone down for prostitution or soliciting. And I’m not quite sure how... yeah, I’m not quite sure exactly how the case panned out, but she wasn’t convicted, and I think the law ended up having to be amended. And it was sensational, apparently, at the time. Gareth: One of the things Dana de Milo mentioned when I was interviewing her was that because solicitation was illegal at the time, they would have in the parlors kind of saloon doors so that you could see the feet of the girl and the head of the girl, that if the girl was laying down then the police would come and bust in. Can you recall any of that? Georgina: No. Well she must have been one of the lucky ones to be working in a parlor. I mean, you know, not many of us queens ever had that joy. I was very lucky that I was able to work in a strip club and at the Club Exotique in the late ‘70s, and that’s where I worked. And while we were paid in terrible, terrible money, it was just terrible – Emmanuel Papadopoulos owned the nightclub, owned the Club Exotique at the time – and our pay was just dreadful, but at least we queens didn’t have to be on... and only one or two of us... oh, one, two, three of us were queens that were allowed to work in that club at that time. It’s not as if queens got to work in strip clubs at all because strip clubs were predominately male, you know, for men, so it was girls that worked in strip clubs. The only queens that got to work in strip clubs and do the full-on stripping had to be extraordinarily good looking and unspring, and you did a trick strip so even though you might have had all your, you know, rod and tackle, you sure as hell had to tape it away and false up a fanny for stripping, and stuff like that. You could have breasts because either you had a hormone bust or you’d gone and had your bust done, they had a tit job done. But anyhow for us queens it was sort of more like, great, I could do my advertising, so to speak, on a stage. And drunk men in a strip club, you know, late at night, it’s any port in a storm, all mouths feel the same. I mean, I’m sorry to be so crude here, but a quick knee-trembler in the toilet, they wouldn’t have a clue. You know, at the end of the day they were just sort of too bamboozled over, so it was a slightly safer way than having to ply your trade out on the street, which was of course a little more dangerous – well, a lot more dangerous in many respects. And giving a cut to the boss, you know, yeah, the exploitation was horrendous really in lots of ways, but better to be inside a strip club on a cold, wet, windy, Wellington night than stuck out on the corner trying to pick up a client. Gareth: You mentioned hormone breasts, and I’m just wondering how easy was it to get hormones in Wellington in the ‘70s? Georgina: Oh, fairly easy. Well, for me it was at that time. Doctor Tom Ongley – he’s dead now so I can mention his name; he can’t have me out for defaming him in any kind of way – but he was a popular pill doctor, as we called him. He had his surgery in Willow Street and many of us used to go to him to get our hormone treatment, amongst other things. So he was sympathetic to transgender health requirements in that sense. However, I don’t recall getting much in the way of advice about what it is I was taking. I remember I used to get prescribed Stilboestrol. Stilboestrol was a synthetic form of female hormone, which was fine. It did the job, except it did have long-term effects down the track. I stopped taking it after a while because it sucked a lot of calcium out of your bones, it made you quite brittle and things like that. Yeah, but there wasn’t a lot of, or not to me personally, a lot of advice about the whole process that I was going into, it’s just that he would dish out our hormones as we required them. As the treatment, for want of a better term, improved you were able to get estrogen injections and that kind of thing, you know, into the future. But hormones were not the only reasons why we went to Dr Ongley. Oh, you know, pills darling: Duromine, mandrake, Secanol, Turinol, Rohypnol, Pipinol [sp?] - the cocktail of mind altering substances that we all took at that time. I’m ashamed to say it now, but I mean that was par for the course for many of us. And I don’t just mean queens I mean anyone who... and you’d just go and tell him a sad-sack story, or whatever, and he was very gullible in that sense and he used to fill out our.... When we were able to get onto.... Because you couldn’t get an unemployment benefit, so either you had to go onto, if you were going to get a benefit at all, a sickness benefit, and very rarely an invalid’s benefit, but a sickness benefit might be the other one. So even if you weren’t sick our condition – what do they call it these days? gender dysphoria I suppose they call it these days – but in my day it was a psychosexual disorder, and so that’s what they could put down on a medical certificate and then you could get paid a sickness benefit because you had a psychosexual disorder. Of course none of us had any kind of psychosexual disorder but if the silly bastards want to pay us out of benefit because they think we’re a bit crazy like that, I’ll take your money. And we did. I mean, if you’re going to put us down on the margins of society, if that’s where you think we’re going to be then we’ve got to survive, baby, and that was part of it. And so if you were lucky enough to get a benefit like that, a sickness benefit like that, then everything else was supplemented, your income. And don’t get me wrong, it was by no means hugely generous or anything. But that’s what happens when you’re shoved down into the margins of society because you refuse to comply with what society expects of you as far as: be the man you’re supposed to be and go and get a real job. Of course we could do that, but we are who we are and what we are, and I guess with the political tone to it that’s where you draw a line in the sand, and many of us did draw that line in the sand and said: Nah, this is what we are. Who the hell are you to tell me to be different? I mean no harm to you. I can still do an honest day’s work if only you would give me the chance. But they didn’t; not in those days. Gareth: Where was the Club Exotique? Georgina: Club Exotique was at the corner of Vivian and Cuba Street. The building still exists. It is currently being refurbished into something else at the moment, I don’t know what. It hasn’t operated as a strip club for well over 20, or maybe 15 years, 20 years maybe since it’s been a strip club. Until recently with this new refurbishment going on, the neon sign of a naked girl used to be on the corner of the building. They’ve taken it down while they’ve done this refurbishment. I don’t know what the place is going to be turned into now. It was three or four stories high, so you had street level, which had a burger bar and another shop on the corner, and the strip club was up on the first floor. And the other two floors were never used, or not while I was there, because they didn’t have concrete floors and so it wasn’t safe to have anything else up there – no apartments or anything like that. So in the years that I worked there, which would have been between 1976 to about 1981, ’82, around that time, yeah, that’s what it was there. Gareth: And that’s different from the Club Exotic? Georgina: No, they’re one in the same building, but at one point it was called The Club Exotique, spelt differently, and then it just became in its later years known as The Club Exotic. So, Exotique, TIQUE, as opposed to EXOTIC. Yeah, God only knows why that changed over. And the building was owned by a famous Greek Wellington – I’ll be kind and call him businessman and property owner -- Emmanuel Papadopoulos. Gareth: And what about The Purple Onion? You mentioned that earlier. Georgina: The Purple Onion was on the opposite side of the road from The Club Exotique, down just before the corner of Marion Street and Vivian Street. I don’t know what occupies that space right now – no, I can’t – but it’s gone, it’s been long gone. When I knew of The Purple Onion it was owned and run by Passie and Anita Daniels, and they weren’t there very long, or didn’t have the place very long when I came along to work there. And when I worked there it was being leased by a butch lesbian woman called Dot - God only knows what her surname was – and she had a partner called Lexy, Sexy Lexy was a famous woman stripper at The Purple Onion, and flaming red hair, a stunning woman really in lots of ways. And on the front façade of The Purple Onion was a famous mural, I suppose painted by apparently a well-known artist whose name I don’t know but he was well known at the time, of a blonde-haired woman in a diaphanous outfit standing in front of like a Duesenberg car with three Afghan dogs on a leash, and it was sort of spread across the frontage and looked very alluring, I suppose, and enticing. It was what I’d call sort of a... it had a sense of a basement feel about it although it was straight off the street level, but it was sort of dark and intimate and small, not huge, not large. It always had a fabulous portrait of Anita Daniels, a beautiful portrait I think painted by the same artist who painted the front of the building up there. I’d love to know who it is. Later on actually the actress Dinah Priestley and her husband Tony Burton, when they got... particularly Dinah got interested in doing batik, and they did a wonderful series, actually, of batiks on The Purple Onion, which included some caricatures of Dot and Lexy and The Purple Onion. So they’re beautiful, lovely pieces of art. Gareth: How does The Purple Onion compare to places like The Club Exotic and other clubs? Georgina: In what way? I mean, they had a different atmosphere. The staging was different. But you know, strippers are strippers, and quite often we used to... some of the strippers used to do spots at either club, so it wasn’t like we were exclusive to one club or the other, and so we’d run across and we’d bring traffic to a stop. So I’d finish doing a spot up at The Club Exotic, race downstairs in my bra and panties and perhaps with a fabulous cape on, and sort of fly across Vivian Street to get to The Onion to fill in and do a spot because they might have been short of girls that night, and do that. You know, and all that sort of added to the color of the street. I wasn’t the only one that did it, lots of them did. The Hole in the Wall opened soon after. Brian Le Gros became the sex king of Wellington I suppose at the time, after Dot had lost the lease on The Purple Onion. I think the building had been owned by Mark Westland, Mark and Cassia [sp?], at that time. Brian Le Gros came onto the scene. Now, he was a Hutt boy. I think he’d been a builder and stuff like that, a bit of a rough edge about him, and he had been brought in and he came with some henchmen and just walked into The Purple Onion Club one night, told Dot that she was out and they were in, and Brian came in, took over the club, about three weeks later he shut it down, and at that time me and various others who worked there sort of were out of a job there. And he later on opened the place up as a peep show, actually, and also opened up The Hole in the Wall, which was a nightclub strip club venue just up toward the corner of Vivian and Cuba Street next to what would have been Parker Ferguson the furniture shop at the time, but actually it’s now The Bluenote right on the corner of Vivian Street there. And The Hole in the Wall building is still there, that I can remember. And yes, Brian opened that up and ran it for quite a number of years before he bought the Salvation Army building across the road. It had been the Salvation Army’s secondhand clothing shop and furniture shop. It was right next to The Club Exotic. And Brian got ahold of that building and turned it into Liks, the strip club which was there for many years. And then Brian Le Gros became the first strip club owner in New Zealand, and certainly in Wellington, to be granted a liquor license. And as soon as he was granted a liquor license that was a license to print money, essentially. His idea of the strip world was to be class, class, class. He wanted Las Vegas style, beautiful girls, no queens; the only queens he ever let strip on his stage were myself and another friend of mine, Yvette, who no longer lives in New Zealand, and Yvette was also excellent at doing choreography for strip shows. Oh, and my flatmate, Dana Depaul, who made costumes. And Brian had a very high standard of what he wanted his club to be; he wanted it to be all class, completely different from the other slapper shows that were around town, and that’s what he was aspiring for. And when he got a liquor license for the place he just made a fortune, an absolute fortune, and later on opened up The White House strip club in Queen Street in Auckland, and has gone on to other things. Gareth: So prior to that license for Brian are you saying that all the other strip clubs didn’t have alcohol licenses? Georgina: No... ah, yes, (laughs) I guess I am. No, they did not have liquor licenses. It doesn’t mean to say there wasn’t liquor. Well it’s all right now; it’s all in the past isn’t it? Yeah. No, no, no, and of course you sold your sly grog for a premium – you know, the boss did. Gareth: Stripping on stage, now I’ve had other interviews where it’s been that kind of art-a-rama thing where... Georgina: Mm-hm. Art-a-rama of poses. Gareth: Yes. Tell me about art-a-rama. Georgina: Oh well it’s just the finale. Gareth: Wasn’t it kind of illegal to actually move and be naked at the same time? Georgina: Oh that was way before my time. You better go back to Dana de Milo about that (laughs). Well, I mean, naked – what? so I’ve got a boa feather strategically placed somewhere, you know, or whatever like that. When we did art-a-rama of poses we might be topless, yeah. No, I don’t remember those kinds of constraints hindering what I was doing. You’re probably right; there might have been some law around it, but I mean this never was policed. I mean please, the police had a lot more to worry about than up there whether or not your tits are jiggling while you’re doing art-a-rama of poses. In fact I’ve got a clip. On the documentary about me called “Georgie Girl” there’s a clip that I’d long, long forgotten about, until it appeared on this thing, of me stripping up on the stage at The Club Exotic. No, art-a-rama of poses was usually a finale so everyone had gone through all their routines. Everyone had their go and at the end of it everyone would come up on stage and just through a few tracks of music just sort of do various artistic poses. You know, I can remember... oh this is too... I don’t know whether I should... oh, she won’t thank me for it either(laughs). There was one sex change, let’s call her Raylene, and Raylene unfortunately was a terrible smack freak, and one night During art-a-rama of poses, and she used to sort of head to sit down in front of us in the center front of the stage, so she just sat there posing – whoa! she’s out of it, and all of that. And one night we were doing art-a-rama of poses and she was so out of it that she lost control of her bodily functions all over the stage, and we all just left. We just left her sitting there on the stage and ran away while poor old Emmanuel Papadopoulos was going right off down at the club: What the hell? Clean up this mess! And none of us wanted to know about it. And poor Raylene’s floating around (laughs). I mean, you know, it’s just part of life. I dare say the audience emptied out very quickly after that. We should stop for a minute while I... sorry. Gareth: Well, I can ask a question as you do that. Georgina: Oh sure, sure. Gareth: What about the kind of use of language; was there kind of like back slang or polari kind of spoken at the time? Georgina: Yes there was a language, a lingo. I never knew how to speak it very well. I could sort of understand it. It was sort of a kind of [speaks in indecipherable slang] – yeah, I can’t. It’s been many years since I’ve talked it. But yes, it was a funny kind of drag-ese I suppose, so that we could communicate with each other, especially when you were amongst straight people and you wanted to pass a comment about something or other and didn’t want to be understood except between ourselves, so yes there was this funny kind of lingo. I think it must have been phasing out in my time. There’d be other – Dana de Milo, she can probably speak it fluently. I mean, they invented it – and it was invented, it wasn’t something that had existed. It was just a strange form of communication to communicate things, especially if you wanted to talk about clients or whatever. A kind of pidgin English, really. Gareth: When we were talking earlier about The Powder Puff and also The Sunset Strip I don’t think we said where they were. Where were they? Georgina: Well, when I first went to The Sunset Strip it was in Ghuznee Street, and the building no longer exists but after this era of The Sunset Strip I think it became Marmalade Recording Studios for a while. So right next door... oh, what’s there now? I’m just trying to think. It would have been opposite what we would call in Wellington The World Trade Center as it was known then in Ghuznee Street, and I can’t think what’s there now. Oh, there’s a park! And The Cave, or Ali Baba’s as it was known. And The Cave was done out like... and Ali Baba’s was done out like, you know, Ali Baba’s cave. And that is where The San Francisco Bathhouse venue is now, upstairs there in Cuba Street, and that is the venue – that’s where The Cave was. Of course it looks quite different now to how it looked in my day and the days of disco and all of that sort of thing. Gareth: Some of the other venues that Dana’s mentioned are El Matador. Did you ever frequent that? Georgina: No I didn’t, but I heard of it. What else? Sorrento. Gareth: Yes, the Sorrento Coffee Club. What was that like? Georgina: I don’t know. I never went there either. Those were sort of before my era. No, in my time, and I come late into the piece really. You know, I’m late ‘70s and all of those sort of places existed before; they were from the café culture of the ‘60s and ‘70s. And Johnny Coolman owned places; he was sort of a café nightclub person around town, you know, in those days. And Chrissy of course, and various others. Orsini’s Restaurant, strangely enough, was right next door to The Club Exotic on the Cuba Street frontage. That building still exists, it’s turned into another restaurant. And Orsini’s of course was one of the restaurants in Wellington at the time. And it was sort of funny, this juxtaposition between this sort of bawdy old strip club right next door on the corner, and this very fine-dining restaurant known as Orsini’s. Because the restaurants of the day, from what I can remember, were Orsini’s, The Coachman, The Lotus, Le Normandie, were the sort of big-time flash restaurants in Wellington that I can remember. A steakhouse called The Town Gate, which was owned by Greeks, that was down Manners Street. Garlands Restaurant in Manners Street, upstairs they had the most fantastic three-course roast dinners on Sunday for some ridiculous price like three dollars fifty or something like that. It was always a good place to go. And The Green Parrot of course is still around; in those days in a different location to where it is now. Gareth: And I think that only other one that Dana mentioned was The Ca D'Oro in Auckland. Georgina: Mm-hm. I never went there but I heard of that, yes. You know, Auckland and Wellington could have been two different countries really, as far as that scene was concerned in those days, but yes, in Auckland what you had, yes, you had the Ca D’Oro, you had Mojo’s, you had The Great Northern Hotel was sort of a gay bar venue, there was a lot where the trannies went, the Howe Street toilets. Yeah, I worked in Auckland in the 1980s at Alfies Nightclub and Century Arcade which was owned by Brett Sheppard and Tony Katavich and Tony’s partner John, they owned Alfies Nightclub. And then there was another nightclub in Fort Street in Auckland called The Staircase. I can’t remember the names of the chaps that owned that one, but they were the two major gay nightclubs in Auckland during the 1980s. At least, anyhow, Alfies Nightclub was a very popular club, and not just for gay, it was universally, you know, it was one of the nightclubs in Auckland, and I was in the Bloomers show that ran there from, oh, what? New Year’s Eve in 1984 through to... well I think it stopped running the show there in the early ‘90s. I stopped working there in 1989. Gareth: Can you describe Alfies for me? Georgina: Alfies Nightclub in Auckland was a basement nightclub and had a very small stage, if you can call it a stage, stage and dancefloor area. It had booths and a sort of partitioned off bar area, a sunken bar area for a while. It was probably quite small for a club when I think about it now, but it used to get absolutely packed out. It was very popular and gay. And when it first got going it had table service and all of that kind of thing, so it was done quite classy. Other establishments in Auckland at the time were Stanley’s Bar, Melba was a – and these weren’t gay bars per se, but they were where all the glitterati and the Auckland celebrity A-listers and all of that would sort of go – and Alfies became one of those. And The Staircase Nightclub just down on Fort Street was a much larger nightclub. The Bloomers show actually did its first shows at The Staircase, and it was a two-hour show but the owners didn’t want to keep the show on. We were looking for a permanent residency and that’s when Brett Sheppard and Alfies came along and said well come and cut your show down to half an hour and we’ll put it on late at night, at 1:00 in the morning, and that was to sort of keep patrons coming on. So when bars and pubs closed at 10:00 everyone hit nightclubs and things, and Alfies was one of those. So yeah, a carpet... what else at Alfies? Yeah, it was sort of they tried to be quite plush, but you can imagine a bunch of gays when they’re pissed and out of it do make a mess. But it was very popular and went on for years and years and years, and I still meet people these days who occasionally come up to me and sort of say: Oh, I remember seeing you at Alfies! And I’ll be going: And how old were you? (laughs) And yeah, lots of good music and our show, which was... we were probably the longest-running permanent resident drag show, and certainly permanent show, in Auckland at that time. I mean, to have run from 1984 through to the early 1990s is quite a long run. And our only competition was a much more classy straight show in Parnell called Burgundies – Debbie Dorday and those sort of people had that show up there. And we were very... in our show we were always cutting-edge, we were always doing sort of cutting-edge alternatives – you know, full-on production numbers as well as... well, how much can you squeeze into half an hour? But they were always sort of cutting-edge, you know, the newest music out. We were doing Malcolm McLaren’s “Madame Butterfly” or doing “Starlight Express” and those kinds of numbers where we’d use lots of effects and fabulous costumes and things like that, which we made ourselves you know, did all of that ourselves, and built up a great following. A lot of people remember that time. God only knows why we called ourselves Bloomers, and that’s Nicole – and Nicole Duval headed our troupe, and Nicole of course, I mean if you’ve got Carmen and Chrissy and all of them down in Wellington, Nicole Duval, or Tinkerbell as she was originally known. You know, even Phil Warren with Nicole had their nightclub that they called Tinkerbell’s. I think she had it for a year up there at... God, that doesn’t exist anymore either, the venue. It ended up becoming The Ace of Clubs where Diamond Lil, I think her name was Marcus Craig, did great female impersonator entertainment work there. But yeah, Nicole was the big-wig, drag wise, up in Auckland at the time. And Mojo’s and the Auckland Les Girls and all of that were big up there, so Auckland had a very vibrant.... And for us in Wellington, anyone who came from Auckland was sort of: Wow, you know, they’re from Auckland! They have the big glamor queens. You know, we were just the sort of slappers down in Wellington, but you know, that is sort of how it used to be. Carmen was about the only one who sort of put us up there with things like The Balcony and all of that, but Auckland was where it happened, really, for drag entertainment. Gareth: One thing I forgot to mention when we were talking about Carmen was you mentioned Bob Jones and the whole kind of Mayoral campaign, and I saw something, it was like about in 2007 where he was kind of slighting her and just calling her this kind of Maori bloke from up north in a dress. Can you recall seeing that article? Georgina: I can’t recall it but I have an opinion about why I think Bob Jones and his little bunch of groupies at the time decided to get in and promote Carmen for the Mayoralty of Wellington in 1977. Prior to that remember he had established The New Zealand Party, which ended Muldoon’s bid in the 1975 election, or whatever it was, and so I think he was wanting to make a political point and thumb his nose at local government and shake it up a bit. And so I think for purely selfish reasons, and with no benevolence to Carmen I might add – this is just my opinion – no benevolence to Carmen, really, just sort of put it to her. You know, we’ll put you up as a candidate and we’ll bankroll you and we’ll come up with your platform and so on and so forth, which he did, which was probably just his way of thumbing his nose at local government and creating a bit of interest like that, using Carmen as the vehicle. And so when Carmen prides herself on having made statements during that election campaign that she wanted to see homosexuality reformed, that she wanted prostitution to be legal, and other such things like that, I think Carmen might have wanted – of course she wanted those things, but it was sort of Bob and them that were articulating them through the press statements and media releases and the buildup and all of that sort of thing. So I believe that he used her persona to grab the headlines. Of course they were grabbed. It became quite sensational. I don’t know whether they realized that she did as well as she did. I think she came in fourth in that election, which was eventually won by Sir Michael Fowler, who won the Mayoralty that year. And I think from Carmen’s perspective, well, she didn’t mind probably if she was being somewhat exploited and used in that way because, like I said, she was a huge PR machine in her own way, and any publicity is good publicity. It was good for her business and it was making her even more famous, and that was absolutely true, so I think at the end of the day that they both sort of worked for each other. But I do have a cynical view of why I think Bob Jones got in behind her, and to do that. I mean, there was even one point where they decided to put a press release out saying that Carmen and Ron Brierley were engaged to be married. You know, there were funny little sort of stories like that that would emerge. I think Roger Gascoigne announced it on Radio Windy program, and indeed rang up Ron Brierley, who was in Sydney at the time, to ask him about his pending marriage to Carmen, which was all news to Ron Brierley of course. But, so you can see what I mean. It was a bit of tongue in cheek going on there. So yeah, that’s my view of what I reckon Bob Jones was doing with that Carmen Mayoralty. Gareth: And just before you mentioned Brett Sheppard and Tony, and we haven’t actually covered their kind of involvement in the hospitality industry and entertainment industries in New Zealand, but they were big weren’t they? Georgina: They were major. Gareth: Yeah. Georgina: Brett owned and opened a publication called Out Magazine, which I may stand to be corrected, but it was probably one of the first nationally distributed gay media in the country at the time. They were very involved with Homosexual Law Reform in the early to mid ‘80s, of course when that happened, and were great promoters and they were able to get the message out and the campaign out through their publication. They also owned, like I said, Alfies Nightclub, but they also owned a bookshop and sex toys and things like that, gay orientated, for gay men and stuff like that. So they were gay businessmen who, yes, I guess pushed boundaries in their own way at that time, became very successful and probably quite wealthy through it all, and helped many, many, many gay men particularly, but men and women and queens and all of that. They’re important, very important to our political development I think. Gareth: It must have been quite an interesting situation in the ‘80s bringing in gay publications, and I’m thinking like whether it’s pornography or whatever because all of that would have been, I’m assuming, seen as objectionable. Georgina: Yes. Yes it was and I don’t know how they got around that, and probably had to deal with various court battles over that sort of stuff. I mean, of course you had adult porn. You know, I can remember the adult film theatre in Queen Street for quite a while. And yes, gay stuff was sort of very, very closeted. I think they had a shop in Anzac Ave, which is where they had the Out Bookshop for quite a while, but then they opened up branches and had their stuff distributed – you know, Wellington, I think possibly Christchurch. Certainly the Out Magazine went around. And then they had Travel Desk, which was a travel agency but to help promote gay-friendly travel, and to, I guess, spend your pink dollar with us kind of thing. And all sorts of initiatives that they took to support the gay community. Gareth: Are there any other venues that we haven’t talked about that you’d like to mention? Georgina: We may have mentioned K Road in Auckland I suppose, but K Road’s K Road. I mean, it always has been that way. There are two fabulous lesbian women, Adele and Leslie, who owned Clown’s Restaurant, which was a fabulous restaurant up on K Road frequented by anybody and everybody, it was a restaurant. I think actually the Caluzzi Bar is now where that venue was, and that’s sort of now a drag restaurant show. There’s been another drag show up on K Road – God, now the name of that’s escaped me too – a family bar, all of those bars and things like that up there, it’s sort of neither here nor there now about having gay venues or specifically gay venues. And when I say gay venues, they weren’t exclusive to gays of course. I mean anybody could go to them, but knowing that they were going to be gay owned and run and frequented by gay people or gay-friendly people, and anyone else who wanted to come along, well that’s fine but you’re on our turf and you won’t be telling us to tone down or anything like that. Gareth: Just wrapping up I’m wondering if we can go back through all of those venues and could you just tell me just a brief idea of what you were doing in each venue? Georgina: Mm-hm. Gareth: So, The Royal Oak; what were you doing there? Georgina: Well I did have a part-time job briefly as a night porter at The Royal Oak Hotel, otherwise I just frequented it as a bar to go to, the Tavern Bar and the Bistro Bar. Gareth: Carmen’s Balcony. Georgina: I never worked there but I went there to see the shows there sometimes, so I was a client there. Gareth: And her International Coffee Lounge. Georgina: Oh yes, I went there. It was just a venue where we could go out and I would get clients from there sometimes. Gareth: El Matador. Georgina: No, I never went there. Gareth: The Powder Poof. Georgina: No, I never went there. Gareth: It’s Powder Puff, isn’t it, but everyone called it the Poof. Georgina: Yes. (laughs)Gareth: The Sayonara and The Sorrento Coffee Bar. Georgina: No, I never went to them. Gareth: And The Club Exotic. Georgina: Yes. I worked at The Club Exotic initially as a comedienne and then I became a stripper there. Gareth: And that’s also The Club Exotique. Georgina: Yes. They’re one in the same. Gareth: The Purple Onion. Georgina: I was a stripper there. Gareth: And The Hole in the Wall. Georgina: Oh, it was just a venue that I would attend. I never worked there, but yes, it was just another club that we went to.

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TITLE: Georgina Beyer profile
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VOICES: Georgina Beyer
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; 2000s; About Face: Jewel's Darl (tv, 1985); Alfies 1; Anne Kennedy; Annie Goldson; Aotearoa New Zealand; April Ashley; Auckland; Australia; Bill of Rights Act (1990); Brett Sheppard; Brian Tamaki; Carmen Rupe; Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Cathy Casey; Change for the Better: The Story of Georgina Beyer As Told to Cathy Casey (2000, book); Chris Carter; Chrissy Witoko; Christian Heritage Party; Christine Jorgensen; Civil Union Act (2004); Close to Home; Club Exotic; Club Exotique; David Shearer; Destiny Church; Exclusive Brethren; Foreshore and Seabed Act (2004); Garth McVicar; Gender Identity Bill (2004); Georgie Girl (2001); Georgina Beyer; Graham Capill; HIV / AIDS; Helen Clark; Hero (Auckland); Human Rights Act (1993); Jacquie Grant; John Banks; John F. Kennedy; John Key; Jonathan Hunt; MMP (mixed-member proportional electoral system); Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Marilyn Waring; Martin Luther King Jr; Michael Laws; New Zealand Labour Party; Parliament buildings; Paul Holmes; Paula Bennett; Peter Wells; Phil Goff; Prostitution Reform Act (2003); Ramon Maniapoto; Raymond Hawthorne; Royal Oak Hotel; Salvation Army; Sandra Coney; Shark in the Park (tv); Sonja Davies; Stewart Main; Sue Bradford; Sue Kedgley; Sydney; Taranaki; Te Whiti-o-Rongomai; The Balcony / Le Balcon; Tim Barnett; Tony Katavich; Vladimir Luxuria; Wairarapa; Warren Lindberg; Wellesley College; Wellington; Wyatt Creech; abuse; acting; adoption; butch; censorship; civil rights; civil unions; community; courts; cracking it; discrimination; documentary; drugs; employment; equality; family; feminism; gambling; government; growing up; hate speech; history; homophobia; human rights; law; leadership; media; parents; passport; performance; police; politics; poofter; pride; prison; profile; public figure; public office; pyscho-sexual disorder; queer; rape; respect; rural; sissy; social welfare; sprung; striptease; suicide; television; theatre; transcript online; transexual; transgender; transphobia; violence; visibility
DATE: 21 January 2013
YEAR: 2013
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 21 January 2013
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Georgina Beyer: Well, I was born (laughs), and it sort of started from there, I guess. The circumstances: when I was born my father worked in the New Zealand Police at the time, and I think was stationed at Taranaki Street Police Station then. My mother was nurse training, I think through Ballan and hospitals like that. They lived in Dunder Street in Seatoun, and I was born. And but by about three months or more, or maybe six-months old – certainly before I was a year old – their marriage went on the rocks because my father was a compulsive gambler and he had stolen 18£ from the lost and found at the Taranaki Street Police Station and got caught and was made an example of and convicted and jailed. And when he went into jail my mother was pregnant again and suddenly she was left solo, you know, and at that time. So, I was put into the Salvation Army Home in Newtown or somewhere at the time, to be looked after. They had a facility there. And I think she must have proceeded with that next pregnancy but arranged for that child to be adopted out at birth, and with my father’s consent but he was inside, and then she divorced him (laughs). I’d say she got it sorted, so to speak. In the meantime she was not very happy with the care of me being undertaken at the home that I was put in, and she had persuaded her parents in Taranaki to look after me, and so that’s where I went and stayed there essentially until I was about four or five. And by that time she had remarried to Colin Beyer, and as soon as that happened she recalled me from her parents and I went to live in the family home at that time, which was in Victoria Street in Upper Hutt. And he had freshly, you know, what do you call it? qualified as a lawyer, and so on and so forth, and was starting out in practice. And involved with people, like with colleagues, friends, school friends and stuff from Wellington College days -- Ron Brierley, and indeed Colin my stepfather, his brother Trevor – Ron Brierley and various others established what became Brierley Investments amongst other things. And so that was the family unit. We moved to Crofton Downs after my half-brother was born, Andrew, who was born in 1963. And I went to Ngaio Primary School. I went to Wellesley Preparatory College for Boys in Days Bay for two years, one year as a boarder, the last year. And then that second marriage, my mother, whose name is Noeline – Noeline Beyer – and Colin, they also had a marriage breakup. And after that mother and children moved to Auckland. Gareth Watkins: Can you describe yourself as a child? Georgina: Hmm. (laughs) Best to ask others, I suppose, for observations. For want of a better term my transsexuality began manifesting at about four years of age through play, I guess. When I was on the farm up in Taranaki with my grandparents the only friend of my age was a girl who lived down the road called Joy Mackleton [sp?], and we played together a lot as kids, the farm is just down the road, as you do. And I used to love diving into her dress-up box, and we’d play as kids do. I’m talking three, four, five – you know, kids playing and that kind of thing, and put on little... oh, what would you call it? exhibitions in front of the adults when they’d had a few beers at the end of haymaking day or something like that, you know. “Oh, isn’t that cute,” and the kids would run around doing that, and I’d sort of be in some old bold frock or something. And they all laughed and enjoyed that, you know, and stuff like that. But I sort of continued with it. I had, you know, kept being effeminate I guess, and so by the time I was a bit older, you know, seven, eight, and I was still doing that behavior it was starting to be frowned upon, and I’m told to stop doing that and so on and so forth. The conditioning. (laughs). “Oh my God! We’ve got a queer son on our hands. Christ, we better start conditioning him.” You know, and you can’t blame them, really. So I guess on the more serious side of things what I’m saying is that I began to detect that that behavior was unacceptable, and so I started to be more secretive about it because it wasn’t worth the punishment that would come with it if suddenly I was getting caught. You know, a bit of a hiding, I suppose call them, on occasion, especially when I persisted and got caught out because I was too dumb. But I became very secretive about dressing up escapades, waiting for times of aloneness and all of that to be able to, sort of sneak in and do it, learning to replace things in my mother’s wardrobe and stuff like that precisely as I had found them so that she wouldn’t suspect, you know, or anything like that, that I had sort of tried on clothes and things like that and then got bold enough to go marching outside of the house sometimes and down the road. And of course the neighbors, whatever, would see. You don’t go into the shopkeeper dressed up like that and not be noticed by your local shopkeeper who sees you every other day, you know, in there. And yes, mother... they’d find out and you’d get told off. So, all that kind of stuff. This wouldn’t be unusual kinds of reactions that all of us in our various forms probably went through, of learning that what we were thinking was just quite normal for us is not approved of, and so you suppress it and therein starts the incredible mountain to climb after that. You don’t know it until you’re a bit older and worldly wise and you capitulate, or some kinds of behavior or problems begin to emerge, not always overt, but sometimes more introverted, you know? You just learn to shut down on things and avoid the ridicule, avoid getting yourself into situations of having the gay bashing happen, you know, till you’re yelled at, “You little poofter. Stop being a girl’s blouse!” You know, and that kind of stuff. And we all would have tolerated it probably at some stages, you know. Hmm. It’s easy in hindsight to look back and sort of try and figure out why things happen. At the time you just cope, don’t you? And I did so right up until college. So by the time you get to high school and stuff like that, and I guess having been to, you know, a mix of State school and private school I had a bit of both worlds, so to speak, strangely enough. My first night at Wellesley College when I boarded there I was sort of strangely terrified, and it was a bit of a culture shock for a – what were you? 11, 12, 13 – and I’m suddenly being put into this all-boys school. And temporarily I had to stay in a dormitory which was for the senior kids, form 2 kids. And I can remember... no, I won’t put this on the record. I don’t think it’s necessary. I don’t want to bring the school into disrepute. (laughs) But boys will be boys, you know. “Oh, what are you doing?” “Oh, what’s that?” I’ll leave it there, to the audience’s imagination. Gareth: At that time were you aware of any talk about either homosexuality or... [interrupted] Georgina: No, I think those.... No, no, no. Those definitions didn’t.... It was just sort of: I exuded a behavior, it was disapproved of, I suppressed it, and you know, because they might have won the battle but I’ll fight the war. (laughs)And until I read “The Little Red Schoolbook”, which we all did at the time, which was sort of a notable little wee publication the schoolkids got hold of and it talked about things beyond... you know, about homosexuality and bisexuality that sort of defined sexual orientations, et cetera, and it had other things in it like swear words. Anyhow, anyhow, sort of suddenly it wasn’t just man and woman, there were some alternatives. So, when I did sort of get my head around that sort of stuff a little bit I began to wonder where I fitted, and you would think one would naturally assume that you were a homosexual male. But because I’d always had the battle, I guess, with: But I’m a woman, or, I’m a girl, I’m a female. You know, I’m always... if I was.... (laughs). If it wasn’t for a quirk in birth and stuff like that I would be, and so the psychological with the physical reality, I suppose. And then more deeply, was I attracted to men who were like that? And no, I wasn’t. You know, the perspective I had was of a more female sort of visceral reaction to attraction and stuff like that. So, I don’t get it off with gay men, (laughs) knowing that may sound... you know, I don’t... that’s not my preference, if you know what I mean. I’m straight in that sense. So, that puts you in a conundrum when you’re that young of wondering, well, if I’m not a gay man and I’m not a woman, so what the fuck am I? You know, I don’t feel right. Oh yes, physically, I’m the... so okay, I’ve got to be the man. And on the two occasions where I had a what you could call heterosexual encounter, which was set up by well-meaning school friends at a school party and stuff like that, and of course, yeah, and present the goods because it would be gossiped about, you know, from the other participant’s point of view as well, and I hated it. I absolutely hated it, you know, from that... not the person or whatever, but, you know, turned me right off. No thanks! I want the snatch, I don’t want the snatch. (laughs) I want a snatch, just to put it sort of... I think you can print that. Gareth: When you were young did you understand why your family was saying, “Oh, don’t dress up”? Georgina: No. No, not at all. No, I mean we’re talking ‘60s, ‘70s here and so the knowledge of this kind of stuff was limited to Danny La Rue. You know, I think the most famous transsexual person in the world at that time had been Christine Jorgensen, who had had the first sex change in the 1950’s. So there was that. There were others; April Ashley and all of that who were famous sort of old models and stuff. But you know, really there were people, you know, it was in the general population. And there was an indoctrination remember, of a pretty conservative Christian moral, you know, that kind of thing. Good God, it was illegal. I mean, men were put into prison. Well, not just men; gay people were put into prison here for two years, you know, or something like that. Men who dressed as women weren’t allowed to walk the streets like that. You weren’t allowed to wear things like, you know... sort of funny laws and things that required you weren’t allowed to wear women’s underwear and you weren’t... and men weren’t allowed to be.... You know, like the queens who worked in the shows in Auckland and stuff like that in the ‘60s, and all that – Carmen’s, and all of that sort of thing – had to walk in public spaces as men, not dressed up in drag, you know, to go from club to club or whatever else. You know, gig to gig really was what they were doing. And part of the allure in the drag entertainment scene at the time was that you didn’t know that these beautiful, exotic creatures were biological men. And that’s what I mentioned before that in those days it would have been terminology like female impersonators and drag queens, and yeah, that was sort of that era. But I was too young, of course. I came in at the tail, you know, at the end of that era. Gareth: How did you go at school? I mean, were you bullied? Was it a positive experience? Georgina: Because I took an interest sometimes at college, anyhow in drama, when anyone who did a sissy thing like that, you know, and because I was relatively useless at sports – okay, the sports I was good at was tennis and swimming, and so but rugby and cricket, I hated them and, you know, I had to play in them. But anyhow, I think I learned the gift of the gab to get myself out of.... Yes, yes there was a certain amount of peer pressure, I suppose, to conform, and that wouldn’t be unusual. A lot of people go through that at that time. And but I seemed to have a very good rapport with girls and was sort of a bit of a magnet if I say so myself, because I had no particular and probably posed no threat, if there would have been such a one, or unwanted advances and all of that sort of thing just didn’t come from me. (laughs) But we could have a good yarn, you know, and that sort of thing. So guy friends could see me as a very good conduit to get to various girls, and so I became a bit of a Dolly Levi, really. (laughs) Matchmaker. You know, and that made me cool with the guys because, well, you know, I’d get them onto that and they sort of thought that I must have been some rampant stud, you know, the sort of Austin Powers of the day – (laughs) Yeah, baby! – with the girls. So, it was quite a good façade even though I did theatre, and doing theatre I belonged to Manurewa Theatre in Auckland for a while, while I was at college. And I guess it was a way of being able to wear costume and makeup and stuff like that, and to step into roles and characters that could be gender indifferent or whatever, and pantomimes and things like that where you might be the girl or whatever, the damsel in distress or whatever. So I’d seize those opportunities. Other than that it was a way of sort of also getting some positive reinforcement if you were good at what you did. And so I took to sort of doing that performing stuff like a bit of a duck to water, which I guess in later life proved to be the beginnings of a very handy transferrable skill. (laughs) And boy, have I transferred that skill over several careers, put it that way! But yes, this escapism, I suppose, to be able to be who you really wanted to be while you had to live in this conformed, straight and moral time and world, and the world and the society that you mixed in, in order to preserve a coping mechanism, I suppose, so you didn’t have to deal with the ridicule which you would get, which would be the lessons learned, you know – oh, I don’t want to have to tolerate that. And that wouldn’t be unusual. A lot of people sort of would have coped with getting through that time until you got to the point where you pushed back and started to stand up and say who the hell are you? You know, and start to become activist about it. And for me I guess that came from being shoved into the street scene, self-inflicted of course. I put myself into the... you know, ended up in the street scene as a way of surviving and then realizing that that’s where people who were marginalized sometimes ended up living on this fringe of society. You couldn’t fully participate in regular life, i. e., so I’ve left school. Well, lots of 15, 16-year-olds left and signed themselves out of school but usually walked into jobs. It was a relatively good time for employment and stuff like that, but when you turn up as a girl and they can see that you’re a boy (laughs), there’s some issues arise. And I can remember going to.... And there I am, working, doing stuff at the Club Exotic and that, but that’s what I mean: you ended up sort of being put... funneled toward that kind of lifestyle. Gareth: Can you just describe for me: So, you’re going through high school. You’re 15, 16. Georgina: Yes. Gareth: Just describe in a bit more detail how you get from that to you on the street. Georgina: Oh. I was convinced even then that I wanted to be an actor, and because I’d belonged to the same little theatre, in Manurewa Theatre, I was going to Papatoetoe High School, which also spawned David Shearer and Phil Goff and me and (laughs) – just thought I’d say that as an aside. And I got to know some people in Theatre Corporate in Auckland, which you see had the Mercury Theatre in Auckland. You know, these are professional theatres, and Theatre Corporate run by Raymond Hawthorne, people would know that, and I was hanging around with those from then, and I had got it into my head that that’s really what I wanted to do and I didn’t really want to be at school anymore. And I became old enough to be able to sign myself out of school, and much against my – obviously my mother was furious – I sneakily, I suppose you could call it cunning really, arranged a school-holiday job for the May school holidays to work at Hallensteins Menswear in Otahuhu, and that’s where I got a job in those school holidays. And while I was there I persuaded that I was going to leave school, the manager or the owner or whatever, to see if he could extend the time I could work there. And I ended up getting three months or something like that, which I felt was enough to be able to IR me in and sign myself out of school, and then told mother. Ooh! (laughs) Oh, you can imagine. There was a huge upheaval about that, but I’d done it and was able to call her bluff when, you know, you got the old, “Well, if you’re going to live under my roof you’re going to have to stand paying board,” and blah, blah, blah. She was furious and was quite sure that I’d be going back to school. But I didn’t. And one day in a domestic argument she sort of said, well, you can move out of here, or something like that, and I called her bluff and did. And I went around the road and boarded with a school friend and his family, and when the parents got to talking they just let me sulk, because my mother would have put it like that. Trouble is, I went and boarded with them for about a month or two until this job at Otahuhu, Hallensteins Menswear ran out, and by that time I’d been able to score another position at Millnan Choice down at the bottom of Queen Street in Auckland in the menswear as a junior, you know, and stuff like that. So I just got further and futher away from home. I ended up flatting in Mount Albert with some people who worked there for a while. And still hanging around the Theatre Corporate scene. One of the friends I had from there was moving to Wellington to go to Victoria University, had a room at the Victoria House Hostel, and I decided to go to Wellington too so I could go to the drama school, and I’d just sleep on the floor in his Victoria House university hostel accommodations. I managed to hang out there for a couple of months without being detected as a person who wasn’t actually a student at the university. You know, Victoria House is university hostel. Gareth: So at this stage you’re still George? Georgina: Yes. Oh, yes! Yes, yes, yes. Oh, yes. No, the.... But, not for long. (laughs) But not for long. So, lots of things happened then. I actually went and.... After.... I went and boarded with Stuart Devenie, who is an actor, and his wife at that time. And they had a house in Mount Street just down from Victoria University. In fact, it was there when I started working as a night... I got this part-time job as a night porter at the Royal Oak Hotel, and then met Rayon, and so the window to the gay world, as it was in those days, opened up to me at that time. But, I was pursuing acting, and being with Stuart of course was helpful. I did hang around and got an audition and stuff to get into drama school, but of course I was too young. But that didn’t stop me from hanging around like a groupie, that drama school scene. So George Webb, he was teaching, people like Ralph McAllister were there, and various other actors. And I went out to Avalon when they were having an audition block, you know, to go because it was all very new out there so they were just getting a lot of talent on the books and stuff like that. And so I managed to sneak in the back door, so to speak, to get my, you know, the vitae thing done and all of that bit down on the record, and that’s how I got a bit of a part in “Close to Home”. And, so yes, that’s school until then, within 18 months. Oh, and also when I left Auckland then to go down, and then as I began to see that I would be able to make a transition to being Georgina after I had been taken to The Balcony, Carmen’s show, cabaret show that was on there, and saw all these queens who were on stage and stuff like that. And it was a major revelation that it’s quite possible, because they weren’t just fun drags, they were serious-looking women. They looked fantastic. And this was the gimmick, I suppose, of the drag show and drag act, was that these people would be so beautiful and unspring, but men would be... you know, that was sort of the... one of the curiosity factors of it. So, you’d have this beautiful person who’s performed for you, and stuff like that, and at the end of their act they might take their wig off. You know, that whole old theatrical device. But to see them with breasts, you know, real breasts and stuff like that, was sort of ahh! Okay! So, this can be done. This isn’t just some madness going on in my head here, this is possible. And, you know, seeing somebody other than a Danny La Rue or some drag artiste, these are transgender people, not that they were called back in those days. Gareth: Was it kind of madness going on in your head? I mean, were you still conflicted in terms of what am I? Who am I? Georgina: No. No, no. I’m afraid it’s quite a hard view, really. I’m sort of lucky to take it. It is what it is, and deal with it, just live with it. That I’m going to get grief from wider society is a bit of a bitch, but I’ll deal with it, and stuff them, you know. I’m not a bad person, you know, all of that. So, there was a fundamental sort of sense of entitlement, I suppose, that could come from me, that I’ve just as much right to be here as you have. How dare you talk to me like that? But that odd thing of, you’d be dressed up in the day, you know, there you are, Georgina walking down the street, a little naïve perhaps but OTT as an appearance, and stuff like that, as we did wear inappropriate things at that time – inappropriate as in a common type, you know, very loud and yeah, and high, high heels, all of that sort of thing in the middle of the day wandering down the street. So you’d get mothers that, when you’re standing at the streetlights, who’d sort of pull their children that side of them as they looked at this creature standing next to them, and shooing, from that kind of reaction, and we’d just turn around as if to say, “Oh, hi!” You know, and be everything that they feared you were going to be, (laughs) if you know what I mean. You know, sort of, ah well, get over it, just deal with it, and munt off. And they’d be strangely horrified but wonderfully curious, you know. And that would be their dinner conversation, “Oh, guess what I saw down at the light!” So there was that sort of guard, you know, just of confronting, I guess, those situations. But we could be over the top and quite antisocial, really, sometimes in our reaction to people just to sort of freak them out for the hell of it. Gareth: But at that age, like when you were 16 and 17, where does that kind of inner strength come from? Where, I mean, where does that...? Georgina: Well, because of the contact with the street scene where, you know, you see other queens doing the street, doing the corner, and you know, you just get into the culture, and so that whole thing of if someone’s going to look at you the wrong way, or whatever like that, you don’t tolerate it. You know, you just come back at them. And some... and I have to confess that quite often that came across as aggro and a reason to be considered undesirable. And because you’re wearing provocative clothing in the middle of the street, you know, down there, and they know you’re touting for business if you’re selling... you know, if you’re looking for a client on the corner. Or, luckily in my case I got to work in strip clubs and in clubs down in Vivian Street, and so I was in a venue as opposed to having only the street and out there to go and earn money from cracking it, as we called it. And I guess when you learn and get introduced into that street life, and it can be a quite brutal arena to be in and you either shape up or ship out, you know? But, on the other hand there was a social camaraderie and common bond, I suppose you’d call it, between the street scene people because we all felt that we were out on these margins, which sort of gave us a false, really, excuse to be everything they said we were, you know, in that sense. But society can take its own blame for that, for if you consider it as sort of if we were only committing a crime because.... Oh, and then you ran into legal issues. Men couldn’t be charged with being prostitutes. Prostitution wasn’t sort of illegal, but soliciting, et cetera, was. And it was Carmen and sometimes during her era the old court case that occurred that provided this gender conundrum for the judicial system to have to deal with. And then of course – I’m racing ahead now, but in subsequent years as things have become legalized and they have a whole raft of sort of statutory amendments have needed to be made on how to legally treat that corrections at the moments is one of the worst offenders of an outrage whereby preoperative transsexuals, for example, are put into the biological birth thing in prison, in men’s or women’s prisons. Anyhow, ask another question. (laughs) I don’t know if I’ve answered your other one properly. Gareth: You have. I remember reading a quote from you saying that you never wanted to make prostitution a career choice, but it was because society didn’t allow you to have any other option in terms of it. Georgina: Yeah, in my experience that’s what happened. That’s what happened, and I guess for many of my contemporaries at the time, and my predecessors, of course, who had inadvertently by whatever way, but by means of survival, you know, provided a guideline toward being able to affirm who you were, and be who you are; Carmen and people like her, Chrissy Witoko and others, who provided venues and who provided jobs, no matter how lurid they might be, or whatever, but a certain form of protection for us, a camaraderie, a collective where we belonged in our sort of venues. That it happened to attract others, you know, who came for curiosity factors – yeah, right, and a bit of sort of dodgy sex – and piqued the interest of the sort of glitterati of the day, you know, the sort of social set who’d gone to be a bit naughty, which is why venues like Carmen’s and that sort of did provide that. Now, say, the moral Christian fundamentalists and conservatives would have found that abhorrent, but honey, if there was a register of all of them that (laughs) inadvertently.... And of course Carmen got hauled in front of the Privileges Committee for suggesting just such a thing, you know, of Parliament. So it had some serious nature in the social and political view on how people like us fitted in, and so it wasn’t easy. And so for the social and political pioneers they were probably pioneers without knowing it at the time, they just pushed boundaries that were just considered socially antisocial and you just pushed back and gradually peeled the layers until we find ourselves where we are today. And for the likes of me and many others – Christ I’m by no means the... you know, I’m an example of a piece of particular history, but there are many others who have done things – and our inspirations, I guess at the time, are women who’d been feisty through the ‘60s. The women’s movement, that was quite a good model, and the lesbian element of that that was vital and important for that movement, feminism for want of a better term, in New Zealand social history, but helped to inspire other minorities to begin to strive for their rights, human rights and equality in this country and start to get the balance better than what it was. Gareth: Can you recall as a teenager when you first came to Wellington and saw that there were people with breasts, you know, where transsexualism was an option. What did you think? Georgina: I felt these people had an incredible pride, in many respects, that despite disapproval they were tall and proud and they walked it, honey, and they were going to be who they are and they sort of seemed happy in their own way. Yes, it was brutal, street life is, and there’d be fights over clients, and drugs and alcohol and all of that kind of thing was just part and parcel of it. And it was fun times, the ‘70s, you know, and there was a good nightlife, a vibrancy in Wellington at that time and in that particular geographic location of Vivian and Cuba Street and all of that. And Cuba Street still has that bohemian sort of alternative, eclectic feel about it, and of its era, you know, the clubs up and down that street, and all of that was part and parcel. A bit of the color, really. It was quite colorful. Relatively passive, I think, from the.... We had, oh, occasionally we’d get plucked by the cops just and carted off down to the Police Station and probably front up and get caught. And queens used to get charged with, and I did, get charged with frequenting with felonious intent, deemed as a rogue and a vagabond. (laughs) I can assure you that law does not exist anymore. That is no longer an offense. And I quoted it once in Parliament during the Prostitution Reform Debate. But that’s what I got arrested for. But it was a revenue gathering exercise just every now and again, because you’d have to go up in front of the District Court on a Monday morning, or whatever like that, and you’d get fined 50 bucks, you know, with Head’s cheap tax. (laughs) You know, really. But they might have plucked you on a Friday night, and so they’d leave you in the cells over the weekend with nothing but, you know, the basics that you were given and forced some queens sometimes to turn up in front of the District Court in the attire you had on from the previous Friday night. So you’ve got no makeup on, your beard sprouted through, you look like crap, and now you’ve got to suffer the ignominy of standing in front of a court and being addressed, and so on and so forth, and all of that sort of thing, and called by your butch name. Even if you’d changed your name by Deed Poll the bastards always felt that they had to, “Otherwise known as,” da-da-da-da-da-da, and that kind of humiliation as well, and get the fine and then you’d be discharged and that was that. So that was over a weekend. I know of other queens, who had, you know... there were some cops at the time that would target them every now and again, but on a semi-regular basis and give them a real hard time just short of a physical going over. You know, nasty, cruel stuff, and then let you go. You just had to deal with it. You know, I’m not saying it was right, but at that time who are you going to go and complain to? There were no Human Rights Commission, and they sure as hell.... It was like when I went to live in Sydney for a year in 1979 and I got pack raped while I was over there not long after I’d been there. And it was a terrible experience, but I didn’t even think – it didn’t even cross my mind that I should go and lay a complaint about it or anything like that because I wouldn’t get protection from the law or by the law, and who the hell was going to believe me? A slap-a-Mary drag queen from New Zealand squealing rape? Yeah, right. And that was sort of some of the reality you just faced at the time. It took me quite a while to mentally get over that. Physically I got over it and that was that, and luckily, luckily I didn’t let it get me down. I mean, I wanted to... you know, I was suicidal; I thought, oh Christ, what is this life all about if this is what’s going to happen to me? And it’s not worth it. It was like just pushed over the edge at that time, but luckily I fell on the side of getting angry about it: Who the hell are they? Nobody should have to deal with that kind of abuse just in general. But the terrifying factor for me is I was preoperative, and while I was very attractive, an unspring looking queen or whatever, there was a moment there where I was utterly terrified that when they discovered that I had a cock that they might kill me. And they were just a little short of doing that. They still brutalized me. But yeah, you know, so there was that whole sort of terror, and that was enough. I think it was defining. That was sort of.... And I got angry about it, thank God, saying nobody’s got a right, no matter what, to attack people like that, and all that sort of thing. I got very angry and wouldn’t allow it to happen again, and got over it. But what am I saying? It put the fire in my belly to stand up against injustice like that, and because when I rationally thought about it nothing was there to protect me. I couldn’t go and complain anywhere and have some restorative something happen here. And that’s just the way I felt; that there was no lever for me in society, it felt for me in that experience. And so if that’s me, how many others are having to deal with that kind of conundrum at some point? Probably heaps. So it began to sort of anchor a: I’ve got every bloody right to be here, and I’ve got every right to be like everyone else as far as existing is concerning. Why the hell do I have to put up with this? And I didn’t want to live in the gutter. I didn’t want to live down on the street all the time. You know, I had ambition, I suppose, to get out of that scene, as sort of secure as it provided me with an experience of life, way too young I suppose, for a good five or six years or whatever that I was there before I began. And getting out of it, getting out of being caught up and in that world, which imbued me with certain strengths and intuitions and streetwiseness and streetsmarts, a way of operating and that sort of thing. But then to get out of that and into legitimacy was not easy, but I found it in a strange sort of way through entertainment, drag show or cabaret entertainment, you know, and more things. And I went to Auckland in ’84 and joined a drag show called Bloomers, which was working at Alfies Nightclub in Auckland. Well, we sort of started off the show at Alfies. And that had a long-running residency there. And that was Auckland in the mid 1980s, which was sort of boom times! There was champagne poppin’ until ’87 of course. Champagne kept popping for us still after that because, you know, we’d established ourselves very well in this much beloved Auckland gay nightclub, and the gay scene up there is one thing, and the Bloomers show. And while I was in that show in 1985 I got approached... or no, I’d been arrogant enough or vain enough to think that I could get an agent while I was in Auckland, an acting agent, and I had put my name around a few agents of the day, and one of them being Robert Bruce who had a well-known agency called The Ugly Agency and so my CV or my portfolio or whatever that I had accumulated at the time I put forward. Anyhow, long story short, it just so happened that a chap called Peter Wells and his partner, Stewart Main, were casting for a short film that they were going to make, and it was about a transsexual and a transvestite and the piece was called Jewel’s Darl, which was a short story that had been adapted by a woman called Anne Kennedy, who’d written it and won a Listener Short Story Award. I think she and Peter were going to make it into a screenplay. I did the audition for the part and got it. And I did, so I did Jewel’s Darl and that turned out to be a critically acclaimed short film, I’ll put it like that. It got about five nominations for the film and television awards, and the ill-fated GOFTAs in 1987, but other than that debacle the acknowledgement that it was a good film. (laughs)And actually, it was part of a half-hour series of dramas that Hibiscus Films made for television that had been commissioned, and there were about six or seven half-hour dramas for new filmmakers, writers, a new vehicle, I guess, for the talent of the day, on the Sunday night theatre slot on television. And so I had some cutting edge stuff. I ended up getting nominated as a finalist for best actress in 1987 for the role of Jewel. My co-star was a guy called Richard Hanna. And so yeah, that was quite sort of, oh! Right at that time of course, ’84, ’85, around the time Homosexual Law Reform was happening, and my bosses at Alfies nightclub, Brett Sheppard in particular, Tony Katavich, his partner John, they had OUT magazine, which was the major gay publication, national gay publication at the time, and it was very active in the Homosexual Law Reform debate at the time. But, you know, we were working down at the club, and of course doing Jewel’s Darl. And just at that time the Salvation Army of course was vehemently opposed to Homosexual Law Reform. They were vicious and venal in their attack at the time, and were really our enemies in many respects, and they were the Destiny Church of their day (laughs), if I can put it like that. And every Sunday in Auckland they did a prayer march down Queen Street and would have a prayer meeting on the corner of Queen Street and Victoria Street, just around the corner on Victoria Street. And on this particular day we were shooting scenes for the Jewel’s Darl film, which required being at Mid-City Mall, which is in the middle of Queen Street, and we did that and we were getting into the evening and Peter either remembered or somebody reminded him that the Salvation Army were going to do this march down Queen Street and then hold the prayer meeting down there. And this is the joy of working with a film maker sort who suddenly sees an opportunity, whether it’s scheduled or not. And I suddenly had a wee meet, and then got me and Richard, who were all in costume and stuff and had done our work – we were about to wrap, really – and sort of said, “Hey, look, this is going to be happening.” And we just thought, we’ll improvise. We can go and set up a camera down there and you and Richard just.... And there’s Richard and I hiding in the doorway of McDonalds on Queen Street. And (singing) da-da-la-da-da, and down come, you know, the tamborines and the uniforms and the hats and all of this stuff, and the brass band, and it’s all going down Queen Street and, you know, a bit of a parade going on. And then they get down just about to where we were and then me and Richard just ran out in front of them, right out and started marching down Queen Street, and then wheeled around into Victoria Street and hoped that Peter and them got something on film. And so after the Salvation Army grouping had set themselves up on the corner to now hold their prayer meeting, and they all got lined up and stuff like that, we’d gone back over the road to see, and oh, God, that was fun. Did you get it all? Did you get what you needed and can you make something out of it? because they had no idea if it was going to be useful footage. And then he said, “Well look, just before we go do you think and Richard could just go over and walk over and stand beside them, because now they’re stationery at the prayer meeting.” And we went, “Oh, okay, yep,” and off we went and stood there, you know, mocking it, really, in a sort of silent film kind of way. And the Sergeant or whatever it was with them, he got furious and him and Peter started to have words, and he was going to report to the police and the whole thing, and we’d have this piece of footage and then not allowed to put it on TV, and stuff like that. And anyhow, needless to say, it is a piece of fond footage that I look at on Jewel’s Darl if ever I see it, of just our little protest at the time. We were able to sort of do something that recorded that actual and historic time. Not only here, I think for Jewel’s Darl and there was one other film that they did in that series called My First Suit, which was a story about a young 14-year-old boy discovering his homosexuality and stuff like that. And you would have thought that the moral content of that would have been repugnant to the censor of the day, but no, the censor of the day decided that Jewel’s Darl was contrary to the public’s good taste and could not be aired. And there was a hoo-hah about that at the time, which delayed the screening of the entire About Face series on TV for a wee while until Julian Mounter, who I think came to the helm of television at the time, sort of told them to get stuffed and what a waste of money just on this silly little peccadillo that they’d picked up, and put the series on and played it, and the film Jewel’s Darl amongst the others. And I lost out in the actress award to Jenny Ward-Lealand. (laughs) Happily so. She was well deserving. Her and I were hot contenders that year for taking out the best actress award, and there were three others of course. And I can think of one other actress who was also a finalist and she spat at me, spat out at me, verbally I might add, that if I had won, sort of half tongue-in-cheek, that if I won the award she’d be complaining because I’d been nominated in the wrong sex. (laughs) But it didn’t come to pass, otherwise I would’ve pressed.... Anyhow.... Gareth: So there was some major social change happening in New Zealand in the 1980s, and I’m wondering did the... you know, you’ve got Homosexual Law Reform in ’85, ’86. Did that have any impact on you? Georgina: No, not particularly except to say that it began to pull in the strains of collective strength as a significant minority in this country, that in order to advance our human rights requirements and begin to socially engineer, I guess, in the more positive for those of us that were marginalized communities. And I just don’t mean transgender but the gay political agenda was about to emerge, was emerging at the time. And don’t forget that it also coincided, our law reform, it also coincided with the advent of HIV and AIDS, and luckily in New Zealand it provided a vehicle via Warren Lindberg and various other people who set out to establish the AIDS Foundation. And there’s a whole lot of other names; I should not start trying to get into the list of honor that those people did for us at the time, but managed to provide a vehicle whereby us... because there was this erroneous belief at the time that HIV and AIDS was primarily a gay disease, gay related, which was totally wrong, of course, but that was the sort of hysterical reaction of general society to it at the time. And the movers and shakers in the gay world, I think at that time, who were able to, and the professionals who were able to frame the debate over HIV and AIDS and how best this country would handle our approach to it, worked very simpatico and well with the mainstream society, and I think that scored some brownie points in some respects of sort of, oh, okay, dealing with that well, coinciding with Homosexual Law Reform. And then in our arts and cultural sector, i. e., Jewel’s Darl as one thing now not just being on the fringes and funny little fringe film festivals or down at the sort of flea-pit theatre and Roxy or something, whatever, to go and see that kind of art, you know, film and creative arts, to suddenly see it beamed into our televisions into our living rooms. Not just the Jewel’s Darl subject matter but the My First Suit subject matter, and stuff like that which was far more real as far as drama than the caricatures you might have seen in Danny La Rue... I go back to Danny La Rue, but he was one of the most visible TV personas of the era, and that’s how a lot of Joe Blow, mom and dad New Zealanders might have seen it, and we’re more than that. Yeah, so an interesting time, you know. I guess I’m sure there was other stuff that was coming out at the time too, but that’s from my own personal contact and experience. Yeah, they were quite.... For me I think after Jewel’s Darl I then went to do things like Shark in the Park and other television productions where I did guest appearances. And all during this period my bread and butter money was on the show in Auckland at Alfies nightclub, which was weekend, and that was sort of.... I used to enter lip sync contests that were popular of the day, running around there in the various shopping malls out in the suburbs – pick up a thousand bucks just like that. They didn’t realize that late at night I was doing it as my job, anyhow, you know, lip syncing at a drag show. You silly fools. Yeah, I’ll chuck on a Dolly Parton wig and go out and pretend to be that, and they all love it out at Cleopatras, you know, in Mount Wellington. (laughs)And I’ll tell you the other thing that we did at the time because... and this is our way of sort of getting back at the State and bureaucracy and the system. To get a benefit usually we were put on sickness benefits, and all you got was your doctor to fill out your certificate. So what’s wrong with me? You know, and everything like that. Well, they dreamed up that we had psychosexual disorders and this could get us onto the sickness benefit, and so yes, we’ll go on the sickness benefit, and that was reasonably generous in those days, about 250 bucks or something like that. And by the time you added that to our under-the-table money we were getting on the weekend out at doing the drag show, another 350 there, and then the odd other bits you might have sort of picked up around, you know, I’m pulling about 800 bucks a week, not too bad, right through the 1987 crash. While everyone else was dying we were living still quite high off the hog, really, at that time. And I say that and I know it sounds disrespectful, but that’s survival stuff: Okay, you silly bastards. You reckon we’ve got a psychosexual disorder and you want to give us money for it? I’ll take it. Now, you know, I’d think differently now but in those days that was about, man, you’ve got to get what you can. And that’s sort of a little bite-back you used to give to society: well if you want to treat me like that, then, you silly bastards. And, yeah, that’s how we sort of got on. Gareth: Could you see a difference in the way that mainstream society reacted to you from, say, the ‘70s through to the ‘80s? Was there a.... I mean, you actually.... Georgina: No. No, no, no. I’ve always said law is relatively easy to change, attitude takes generations, and we’re nowhere near it yet as far as attitude is concerned. It’s improving and it’s getting there, but it won’t entirely have worked for us in my lifetime, I’m sure. But yeah, we’ve substantially gone a long way there, and I’m just a wee piece of the puzzle and of the continuum that we’ve had to sort of get there, so attitude is the next thing. And the era of collective solidarity has diminished somewhat in the last few years, in my view, amongst the gay, the LGBTI community. And there being to saying LGBTI community – we were already quite sort of sectioned, siloed off on those things. There has been a purpose where we come together and put aside our particular differences with each other for the greater good, and we move forward. And I think we’re at a period now that I think probably after this marriage equality and adoption has been sorted that legally there’s very little else until we start to get down to the minutiae – so, transgender wants and greater access to services, et cetera, than are currently being provided, and all of that sort of thing. And there’ll be those kinds of things to do, but as far as major law, the framework by which... you know, it’s not that it’s separate or anything, we’re actually one in the same, you know? But no, I’m nothing special, but we’ve got to go through this palaver. The lawyers are cramming it. So yes, that’s where I sort of see that kind of change in the future. But the ‘80s to the ‘90s I’ve noticed sort of.... Yeah, ‘80s and ‘90s and beyond; after that was when quite a bit, and especially after. So, we have Homosexual Law Reform in ’86; we have the amendments to the Human Right Act in the early 1990s under our national government; and then we come to the early 2000s and we get De facto Property Relationship Act; we get the Civil Union Act and the Statutory References Amendment Act, and various other things like that that are sort of current. Now we’re hitting the slightest attempt to get marriage. So it’s moved quite well. But the best reflection is in the social services provided, you know, anyhow, and amongst other things. Anyhow, that’s probably going a bit too far ahead. We’ll get to that later in your questions. Gareth: When was the transition between George and Georgina? Georgina: Oh. Oh, 1976, and by that time I was living on Buller Street in Wellington with Rion McKenzie and Malcolm Vaughan and various others. That’s where it happened. And that just meant one day when I had the wardrobe and I had the wherewithal 24/7 just to be who I am, you know, and destroyed everything that I had on me at the time that was my overall reminder. And this was a symbolic sort of purging, (laughs) if I can put it like that. Gareth: What was your relationship with your family? Georgina: Estranged. It still is. That’s the shortest way to describe it: estranged. My mother died in 1978. It was quite tragic really. She was 43 and she died of cervical cancer, and she’d been involved in the unfortunate experiment up in Auckland in that at the time. Sandra Coney and Co. wrote about it later. And so she was the only senior family member that I had any kind of respect for and would listen to, and whose disapproval or approval or affirmation was important to me. And so once that was out of the picture I had no sort of moral compass as far as that was concerned, about some kind of responsibility to the family or whatever like that, because the only ultra-important person to me at that time was now no longer, and that was that. So in a way I was sad, yes, but in another way it was freedom for me. I didn’t care about what my stepfather thought, and I never knew my birth father – I never met him until my mid-twenties, so I had no emotional connection to him or that side of the family necessarily. And my mother, some of my mother’s siblings, my aunts and uncles, yes, I’ve kept in touch with, and the odd cousin and that. But I never felt a huge umbilical cord toward them, because I think I had left school early, got out and then started living that life so young and became fiercely independent, and because I was avoiding wanting to have that pressure on me had severed myself off. Unfortunately it became happily convenient to just cut them out like that. It saved me a lot of grief until I was in.... And actually the time when I sort of put that to bed was at my mother’s funeral in front of them all. Yep, this is who I am and what I am, deal with it or not, and so on and so forth, and walked out and went to a nightclub in town and I had a good night out after that. And they oohed, and ahhed and were horrified and all of that sort of thing. I said, “Ah, deal with it. It’s your problem, not mine.” And I think when I started to treat life and people like that – It’s your problem, it’s not mine; I’m just going to get on with it and I’m not going to wear your guilt that you’re going to impose on me, you know, oh shame! That’s your shame, not mine – I just divested myself of making that a problem. Some might say you’re avoiding it or not wanting to confront it or whatever. Well, if I deal with it I’ll do it in my own time, thank you very much, I don’t need it right now. I’ve got other things to deal with much more fun. And I guess that’s just an indication of a kind of attitude that I’ve sort of developed that I’m not going to let you stop me, pull me down or change me like that. You know, you can meet me half way. Gareth: It’s interesting because I had heard that at your mother’s funeral that it was your mother’s request that you go in male clothing. Georgina: That’s right, it was. Well, just a background of that sort of scenario; one night.... Now don’t forget I’d been out of touch completely. She thought I was dead or something like that, I could have been in jail or whatever for 18 months, and in that time I’d made my transition. And one night on the way to work I was full of Seconal and a few valium and a few drinks before I left home on my way to work, I just suddenly stopped at the telephone booths in Vivian Street and rang her. And in that conversation I came out to her and stuff like that, but she also informed me that she was not well and that she had cancer and that she didn’t think she had much longer, so I was horrified and wanted to rush back and go and see her. She preferred I didn’t come right then, but eventually I did go up and see her and she died three weeks later, to cut a long story short. So, there was a reconciliation and we made our peace, for want of a better term, if there was any peace to be made. One of her requests was that I did come as her son. I looked ridiculous with tits and long hair, but I did dress down for her and wore a man’s suit, which was probably quite trendy, when you think about it, in those days, to look like a girl wearing a man’s suit. And everyone knew, of course. That was the ridiculousness of it, but out of respect for her – I wouldn’t do it for anyone else – I did that. And as soon as we dealt with her at the funeral we went back to the house at the wake. I got changed. I got back before anyone else started arriving and I got changed into Georgina, you know, who I was. They all come back. I am out fully. They see it all. I can still remember one of my aunties just was horrified, “Ooh. Oh, how can you do that at your mother’s funeral?” You know, and all of that kind of thing, and that’s when I more or less said well, it’s not my problem, it’s your problem. Deal with it. You all know about it. Tough. And off I went. And yeah, let’s put it there. That is the ten foot tall and bulletproof, that’s, you know, young people at that time – you don’t mean anything to me, and so in a strange sort of way it sort of worked for me. Others might have sort of crumbled at the thought of it from that point of view, but no, not me. I thought I’ll just thumb my nose at you. Gareth: You mentioned a bit earlier, you touched briefly about suicide and I’m wondering, I mean, was suicide a big thing in your life or was it...? Georgina: Yes. Yes, it was I think at that time, two or three times. I probably... yeah, it’s easy to say on reflection now, yes. After the Sydney situation, the rape over there, that sent me into a spin. You know, that was real tough really at that time and you begin: oh, why am I living this life and is this the way we just expect to be treated? That’s no kind... you know, all of that kind of stuff. And the other time might have been more out of sulkiness or something like that. You know, it’s easy when you’re dropping pills anyhow. I’d just drop more and thought, oh [unintelligible]. Oh, but that was because we were on a lot of barbiturates we took in those days: mandrake, Seconals, Tuinals, Rohypnol – the menu, the cocktail of things that we used to get because it was easy. I’d go to... I can call him by name now because he’s dead now, Dr. Onley [sp?]. Everyone will know who Dr. Onley was in those days in Willow Street. And I’m glad it didn’t happen though. Now I’m very glad, of course, that I wasn’t successful, but those were the triggers that I guess at that time – young, somewhat impressionable, and luckily in recovery from them it added strength rather than a weakness – that it was a point that if you were heading toward that point something’s seriously wrong and, you know, make it right if you can for yourself. And that you can get them back, if you think the world’s done you a bad deed, by being resilient, but it doesn’t happen like that for everybody, of course. It gets on top of them and I can understand why. There’s some very cruel people out there and cruel situations that occur and you can see how it just forces people. It must have been worse way before my day when no one could be out. Gareth: So was it things like the pack rape in Australia that prompted you into saying actually I’m not going to let other people have to go through this thing where I can’t report it to the police? Georgina: No. Well, that kind of activism manifested later, yes. At the time it was more self-interested: I’m not going to ever let that happen to me again, and I want to be able to rectify it. A lot of those sort of things and so called achievements and stuff afterwards have been done not as a... have been more... yeah, there’s been more of a, well, if I don’t let it happen to me again, well whoever else benefits is fine, you know, but I wasn’t doing it purposefully for that kind of a cause. No, there was no cause celeb for me as far as that was concerned, it was about: it’s not fair; I’m going to deal with it if I can, or at least confront it. Mouthy you see, wasn’t afraid to sort of bite back. And strangely enough, for some of the authority that I might have crossed swords with at times, I was eloquent and intelligent and argumentative from a professional perspective as opposed to just some dumb queen, you know? I understood what I was wanting, and the acceptance I was wanting. I just didn’t accept things. I didn’t accept it when Social Welfare told me that I couldn’t get an unemployment benefit because I could go on and put, you know, go on and be the man I’m supposed to be and get a job. Gareth: They actually wrote that to you? Georgina: Oh, I was told that. You were just told that in those days when you fronted up at what were then court, once it was Social Welfare and all of that, as to whether or not you were eligible for getting a benefit. And I said no. I’ll be going to work like this, so no, I’m not going to change. This is who I am and what I am, and who the hell are you to tell me that I should go and be the man you reckon I’m supposed to be. (laughs) And they didn’t know how to deal with that except to say, well, you’ve got a psychosexual disorder so go get a sickness benefit. Oh, okay then. If that’s what you think I’ve got that’s fine. Never for a moment believed it but none of us did. You know, but that’s the way society and the bureaucracy was going to deal with you, put you there. Crazy. So yeah, I guess inadvertently without knowing it I was just sort of pushing back and playing them at their own game. Gareth: So when did it change and why did it change that you became more kind of outward looking and saying, well actually I can change this for other people too? Georgina: Yeah, no. No, I’m sorry to say, but that revelation quite like that just never... it didn’t come, even when it came into politics. That kind of stuff happened once I was in Parliament and then the realization of the level of influence I was now working in, or moving in. My whole local government experience – I’m jumping a bit ahead now way from beyond the ‘80s – but my whole government experience was nothing about, at all, none of my political achievements of being elected, et cetera, have relied on the fact that I had some kind of alternative agenda regarding being a tranny or being part of the gay community or anything like that. I fell, through some happy circumstances, I suppose, into those roles and that fact that I was already an out, mildly well-known transgender entertainer/actress and so on and so forth at one level, and then moved into a political or local government, to start off with, arena which obviously attracted some attention because I’d always been an out transgender person. There was no escaping it, and I didn’t want to. You know, it was irrelevant, frankly, and the reason I got into politics was because others in the community of Carterton, that I lived in at the time, pushed me toward it for completely unrelated reasons to being part of the gay community – utterly unrelated. Gareth: So for you, when you are campaigning to become mayor of Carterton in ’95, and there are things like... I know there was like smear campaigns saying, did you really have an operation? and all that kind of stuff. When that’s not what you’re standing for how did that kind of make you feel? Georgina: Oh, well it won me the election, (laughs) to put it short. I first got... My first election I ever ran in was in 1992 at the 1992 level government elections as an Urban Ward Councilor for the Carterton District Council. I had been working part time as a tutor at a Life School’s course at the Carterton Community Center, a course that I had been a training opportunities program participant in prior to getting a bit of a position there. The 1991 budget happened, ruthanasia occurred, and it had slashed benefits by about 25%. And down the track from that it had a ripple effect throughout rural New Zealand in particular where a lot of low-income jobs – you know, it was the ‘90s. We’d come out of the ‘80s, at the ‘80s the economic financial horrors of that time perpetuated by the Ruth Richardson Finance Minister and that national government. And so we had some issues in Carterton that we as a community organization were getting involved with, and one of them was the odd case of homelessness and people sleeping down at the local children’s play park in the sort of fort thing that were down there, and people were worried about it. And we as a community sort of wanted to organize some temporary accommodation for these people while we got them sorted with benefits, et cetera – benefits and access to them and advocacy for them and stuff like that. We went to the local District Council and asked them if we could use one of their powered caravan sites at the Council owned Caravan Park because someone had donated a caravan to us and we thought we could pop someone in there for a night or two while we got them sorted, et cetera. The council refused to give us a powered caravan site unless we paid for it, and we were wanting it for free. We were just a very poor community organization. And we made a submission to the council, and those of us in the community sent a committee and stuff like that. They made me the spokesperson to go and present the oral submission to Council. And that’s probably the first thing I ever did. You know, and so it started from there. And then the ‘92 elections came, they suggested that we put up a candidate, and I ran on a ticket with a retired Vicar, the Reverend William Woodley Hartley, and he was about 80 something, and me, so there was plenty of scope for actress/bishop jokes. And we had fun and made a few points of social interest and community involvement and the Council should have a social conscience, et cetera, et cetera. And I was not successful in that election but I was the highest polling unsuccessful candidate in the ’92 elections, and they knew that I was this exotic creature that had come from nowhere and suddenly was in town and I stuck out like a sore thumb in a small, rural town like Carterton, but I had endeared myself to them in some sort of respects, and people got to know me and I got involved and felt pretty good. And then there was the resignation off the newly elected council. Ironically it happened to be the Baptist Minister and he got redeployed in his ministry to another city and so there was a newly created vacancy on the Carterton District Council, the new one. And so they held a by-election rather than.... And it was during that period that a lot of those suggestions by the media that it was because I was a transsexual, and questioning my character and all of that sort of thing began to emerge because it was sort of lovely, salacious stuff for the otherwise boring local government – you know, election stuff – to happen. So yes, I had to put up with all of that scrutiny, which was sort of the beginning of learning a long, long lesson of how to deal with all of that sort of scrutiny. But I would have to say that it was the media and the associated attention with this fascination with this transgender person running for public office in a rural conservative area in New Zealand, nobody would have thought that it would happen, that it was a bit of a joke. Carmen had run for the mayoralty in Wellington in 1977 and that had been full of spectacular sort of, you know, wonderful color, but nobody was taking it seriously. It was more an entertainment than anything else, and now a few years later there’s this thing happening, except it’s in rural New Zealand and this will be fun, and all of that sort of thing. And how wrong they were. And I won the by-election because the Council could have just appointed me, as I was the highest polling unsuccessful candidate -- we’re talking about 14 votes here, 14 votes that I’d missed out by – saved the expense of a by-election. There was no choice. They could have left the situation vacant, but it was too soon after the major election and that would mean there would be a Ward in the District that would be unrepresented for that time, so that wasn’t an option, and they chose the by-election. And in a strange sort of way I was able to use that toward my advantage because I would sort of do the fire and brimstone, “Oh, the expense is unnecessary!” and so on and so forth. And the media are saying, oh but no, isn’t it because you’re a transsexual and they don’t want to have it like that?“Oh, it couldn’t possibly be anything like that!” And I for all of that that they would say, I would say, “Oh, no, that’s not an issue. It’s certainly not an issue for me; it shouldn’t be an issue for anyone.” And I just went on this sort of rose-above-it kind of attitude while the poor old incumbent mayor was being asked about: is the council doing this because you don’t want to have someone like her on the Council? And of course he would come back with a very diplomatic and political, “Why of course not. This is a democracy and that’s why we’re going to have the by-election, so that the people can make the decision.” Well of course you can’t argue with that. Of course that’s sort of right, but we all know, (laughs) we all know, don’t we, what the real attitude was. And certainly the voters understood that and thought to thumb their noses at the council, and they kicked my fanny into that council and elected me with a very clear majority. Five other people stood against me – in a by-election for God’s sake! – you know, stood against me, and I got half of the votes and the rest of them shared the rest of the votes, and there I became a Councillor. And then when I got in there of course it was very new and I knew nothing. I by no means had been educated towards the ways of politics so I just learnt it from the ground up, so to speak. And it was very easy in my first few months to be marginalized by the rest of the Council, who were just sort of bemused more than anything else at this – oh, okay; it’ll be a one-term wonder, you know, and that kind of thing. I seized an opportunity that they sort of threw at me. Councils under the new Resource Management Act needed to establish consultative procedures with local iwi, and since I was the first Maori to ever serve on that council they threw it to the brownie in the corner, and I took it with both hands and went off and went to workshops and things and came back with a draft of a sort of proposal for a policy for the Council to adopt to start to establish my cred amongst them, I suppose. But at the end of the day it doesn’t matter about them that sit around the table so much, it’s the people who put you in there and who you’re representing that you’ve got to keep on side and that you’ve got to keep open and honest with, and I just sort of always found favor, luckily, with the constituents, and I delivered for them. Yes, under-promised; over-delivered. (laughs) I started to learn the tactics early on. And then the ’95 election came around and it had been suggested that I have a go for the Mayoralty then, which I thought was sort of ridiculous, but let’s have fun anyway, and gave it a go. Gareth: The Mayoralty being successful, in that you became the world’s first transsexual Mayor, and that created a whole lot of international media attention. How did you deal with that? Georgina: It did. Well, first of all I didn’t think for a moment that I would win the Mayoralty – and I stood also, because you could stand for the Councillor and Mayor, so I was already an incumbent Councillor – and so I stood for both, you know, because I was pretty sure, but I’ll stand for the Mayoralty and have it a go. But I did it upon the suggestion of one of our managers. I thought he shouldn’t have been advising me this way, but I’ll go on. You know, let’s have a go. And I felt emboldened enough to do it. And because I’d been pretty straight-up about what I thought of the sort of so called fuddy duddies, as I call them most unkindly when I think about it now, but you know, that’s politics. And I would just sort of say things like, oh God, half these Councillors inherited their seats, and wasn’t it about time for some new, fresh leadership, da-da-da-da-da-da? Anyhow, it resonated with people and yes I won the Mayoralty at the end of the day in ’95. Yes, then this attention descended upon me. The media treated the Mayoral campaign again as some kind of entertainment. I don’t think anyone was quite sure that I would actually pull it off and that I’d given myself the backstop of being able to be reelected as a Councillor, so people were sort of wondering about that. But as it turned out it was a very definite win. I didn’t just scrape in or anything like that, I had a great majority. And bang, I was there and I was the Mayor. And I was terrified, really, because suddenly I’m like, God, it happened! It was the media that informed me that I was certainly the first transsexual in New Zealand to be elected as a Mayor. And then later on people started to say: you might be the first in the world. And I said, well, I wouldn’t have a clue; you’d have to verify that, or whatever, but I don’t know, I’m just the Mayor, and get on with the job. But of course the media attention was on the trend of: this is the first transsexual in the world. And after nobody else around the world stuck their hand up to say, no, I am – and none of them did, or nobody did – that it’s just a given that that is sort of a fact. And of course it had nothing to do whatsoever with my getting elected. It was a byproduct, you know, on a PR scale, was what it was. But when it dawned on me that if this is the case, even if it’s just about New Zealand it’s got some significance from the gay communities or significant minorities that an underdog made it through legitimately; no swifties pulled here to get her into office or anything. These were rural, redneck, conservative New Zealanders elected her. What did they put in the water? You know, what’s caused this? This is quite remarkable, in this little micro example, in the scheme of things, and it’s sort of fun. And gee, don’t we feel good that anyone can make it in our country, and get there. You know, there was all of this kind of thing that went on. So, it was immense. I decided to accept that I’d become a bit of a figure of political importance; a sense of, oh, there’s a little advance has just happened here. So I accepted that it was going to represent parts of the gay community or that movement is one thing, but actually I’m the Mayor of Carterton and that’s my primary focus and has got to be. What I may do and what I may achieve, or whatever like that, may well be a good reflection for everybody else that’s going to claim a piece of ownership of my reflected glory, or whatever you want to call it, and success and achievement, and to be used as an example of how it could happen elsewhere if people were more open minded and overlook, and da-da-da-da, and all of that kind of significance. But largely it would depend on how effective my example might be, by my exemplary behavior, (laughs) and at the same time not looking like I was totally conforming to societal ways, that I’m not afraid to be who I am and what I am and for everyone to know it. I don’t go out there and preach it, I just am, and you know I am. And who’s making it the issue? The media do because it’s an interesting aspect and people are curious about it. And also it had a reflection, some possibly in a negative way, for the people of Carterton because now they’ve got this civic leader who’s becoming very virtually a household name because of my notoriety, my interesting backstory, and the fact that I am this transsexual, and now this is going to reflect on the town, too, and on the District. So, there was that to take into account. So again my conduct, I guess, at the time was to try and make a happy balance between... to be everything to everybody that they wanted me to be, you know, in some ways, but not lose it either. Gareth: Did you feel that you had to kind of be more respectable? Georgina: I already was respectable. Gareth: But more respectable than the colleagues? Georgina: Well, okay, if I was going to... because now you’ve got a public platform so the media are asking about all sorts of other things like government related, my District related and all of that kind of thing, my response to things. I mean, just looking at me as a civic leader to begin with was, you know, how is she going to do this? Some kind of attitude that people like me just haven’t got the kahoonas to be able to do a job like that. Huh? So, what, are you telling me I’m so sub-intelligent because I happen to be what I am that I can’t do this? Well, of course I can. And of course we.... Those kinds of invisible barriers that we sometimes face because people just make some kind of erroneous assumption about us and how I’m educated or uneducated or intelligent or able or sensible or whatever, to be able to deal with a position of, yes, ceremonial responsibility but hey, she did some hard graft work and there’s a whole lot of diplomacy, there’s a whole lot of politic, there’s a whole lot of stuff that, certainly, you’ve got to creation learn as well as being the public face and the media go-to person. So a whole lot of skills had to come together, which is why I said before that having had some experience in theatre and a little bit of dabbling in television and a little bit of entertainment, my street smarts from my street-time years, suddenly elements of all of that came into play in being able to use, of navigating my way through, in the early days anyhow, of my Mayoralty. And just learning how to deal with that let alone run of the mill stuff that the Council does and how to manage people and deal with the high brows and the low brows and still not lose your sense of self and who I am and what I am with the demands that others had on me and my time and my image and everything that I represented, if that’s the way people wanted it. A huge demand came on because suddenly, you know, you’re on a bit of a platform and a pedestal – you’re a voicebox, and mm, so... Gareth: So then how did you feel about – I mean,I’ve seen a number of newspaper articles from the time where the first sentence kind of was always: Prostitute, drug user, da-da-da-da-la, so your past is always following you before they actually get to the story of what the story is. How did you feel about that, the past was always.... Georgina: Well, you know, at the time you just sort of dealt with it and you just took it that that’s how it was always going to be. Now, you know, there’s enough of that record around for people to reflect back on it now and sort of go, hey, useless Oz journalists. How shallow is that media at the time that they always had to start like that? It was just essentially a sensational headline grabbing thing to get the reader’s attention, I suppose. And on occasions you would get feedback from the reader that would sort of say, why do you have to keep on referring to Georgina Beyer as a transsexual? We don’t refer to the Prime Minister as a heterosexual, which could have a double entendre to it, of course, (laughs) and which was bold during the time. And so people could see, New Zealanders could look through that kind of stuff. But I think that’s more of a reflection of the journalistic devices that they used of the day than it was about me. And that they had to keep throwing that up there, I mean, at the end of the day everyone knows this, so why do you have to keep repeating it. So, it’s for very spurious reasons, really, that they want to raise that again. I can remember when I was in Parliament at one time when people wrote me off at the 2002 election. We might come to that later. But they wrote me off, and then I changed my mind and I was going to leave after my first term, and then I changed my mind and I went back. And of course, I remember the people in the press gallery telling me, you just committed political suicide; you don’t do that – say you’re going to leave and announce it and everything like that, and then change your mind that you’re going to stay. And they said, oh, you just committed political suicide. The 2002 election happens; my majority doubled. (laughs) Now, do you think they would want to scrutinize how that happened or why that happened? Do you think they’d want to give me credit for actually having some ability, and not only that, for actually being straight-up? You know, and because they were trying to look for some what the hell happened here, you know, some incredible thing that occurred. But it was very simple, really, at the end of the day. I’d changed my mind and I’d told them so, that I would change my mind, and okay, if they thought that I was too silly to put back there then I wouldn’t be put back there. But they definitely put me back there. I’m talking about the electors, you know. So, media, explain to me your whole attitude that I just committed political suicide and that I’m naïve and stupid and that I always was going to be a one-term wonder. You know, ask me since how I first elected to a public office in 1993 how come I lasted until 2007. (laughs) You know, did that happen because people were just, oh, yeah. I was more than a one-term wonder. I never lost an election except for the first one I ever ran in, and that was in 1992 and I missed out by 14 votes, which turned out to be an advantage in strange sort of way in the end. I mean, but that never got looked at. You’re right – prostitute, transsexual, drag queen, blah, blah, blah, all of that thing sort of has to get up there. Gareth: What prompted you to then stand as a member of Parliament? Georgina: Oh. (laughs) Well, I was very happy in my role in local government. I succeeded in getting a second term as Mayor in 1998 with a 90% majority. I represented Zone 4 on Local Government New Zealand, which is the Wellington metropolitan region of Local Government New Zealand. I was very happy and content in my role as a Mayor. I was approached by the New Zealand Labor Party in the form of Sonja Davies, who lived in Masterton, and she came to see me under the pretense of talking about the Masterton Hospital at the time, which was under threat of closure and services being diminished and so on and so forth. But at the end of the day after that meeting she had me signed up as a member of the Labor Party – (laughs) you know, I’ve got to get her out of my office – at the time. And then she came back and suggested would I consider running as a candidate for Labor in Wairarapa. I said no. I turned Labor down three times in quite quick succession. I even went to a meeting in 1998... no, in 1999 with Helen Clark a day before the Hero Parade in Auckland. And she was leader of the opposition at the time and I had the meeting with her and she was quite keen, but she made one statement to me which made me go, no, again, because she’d said during the course of the dinner that we’d had, she said, “Oh, now we’re looking for star performers.” And I thought, oh, yeah, you just want someone who has a bit of a name in some far-flung rural seat and all of that sort of thing. It’s not really me and my fabulous abilities that you want, it’s just my notoriety; pull a few votes, you hope, in the MP election, et cetera, and this great emphasis put on you just go for the Party vote, the Party vote – don’t worry about your personal vote, just throw the Party vote, Party vote. And I think that was the.... Anyhow, I said no. But Sonja kept being dispatched to persuade me to confirm running as a candidate, so I did accept to be put up for selection as a candidate for the Wairarapa seat for the Labor Party. I didn’t realize that there were two others, and on the night of the selection meeting... oh, I knew that there were two others, but on the night of the selection meeting I turned up at the Frank Cody Lounge in Masterton and expected to have a bit of a, you know, do a debate because this is a selection meeting and there’s two other people there. And I got there and the two other people made a public announcement and withdrew their candidacy for selection. And so it was me, and I just had it fait accompli because I’m the last one standing. And yes, then I’m announced as the Labor candidate for the Wairarapa seat at the 1999 general election. Well, that hit the headlines, of course, and so now it was on. I was... you know, that was it. I had never belonged to a political party before. I had no idea of the culture of the New Zealand Labor Party or anything like that. They put scant resources into our election over there because I think they had a view that it was probably unlikely that I would win, but they were wanting to get Party vote and there’d be a little bit of media buzz around anyhow. The National Party decided to put up a candidate against me, obviously, because it’s a National Party stronghold, the Wairarapa, and that candidate that they selected, at the end of the day was a well-known broadcaster called Paul Henry, and he was the National Candidate for them. And of course all of the other Parties had their candidates up, but it was really a two-horse race between myself and Paul Henry, who blew it, forth and frankly. Thank you, Paul. It was well done. A fantastic performance. (laughs) And he’ll never want to enter politics ever again, certainly not for the National Party. And I won the election, and that was remarkable. I certainly didn’t expect to win the constituency, but let’s be fair here, there was a swing away from the then National incumbent... from the incumbent National government, and they were going to lose that election anyhow, and a huge swing towards Labor. I had the largest swing in any electorate in the country at that year, a 32% swing to Labor, and I took out the seat with a 3,000 majority, a seat that had been held by the right honorable Wyatt Creech, who was then the Deputy Prime Minister, but who had chosen to stand down from the seat and do his final term in Parliament as a list MP, and that left the field open as he moved on into that position. And yeah, I think I’m only the third Labor Party person to have ever held the seat at Wairarapa, but in fact I am the first Labor MP to win the Wairarapa in the current electoral configuration of the seat now. In previous days the Wairarapa electorate had been essentially from Masterton down to the south coast of the North Island, and then the electorate above that was Pahiatua, the shrine to Keith Holyoake, which of course took in Pahiatua, Woodville, Dannevirke, that sort of lower, central Hawkes Bay area. But that got subsumed. John Falloon was the last MP to hold that Pahiatua seat, and that was subsumed by the newly redrawn boundaries of the Wairarapa, which Wyatt had in his time from 1996 after the MMP changes had come about, and then I won it in ‘99 for Labor. Gareth: Knowing what you knew about how the media reacted to you in the mid ‘90s did you ever turn it around and actually use differences as a way of promoting yourself? Georgina: Promoting myself? I never thought I had to... you know, contrary to what a lot of people might think I have never been in the business of necessarily particularly wanting to promote myself except for at election time and stuff like that. Gareth: Yeah, that’s what I meant. Yes. Georgina: You know, those sort of PR things. To use my.... No. I think people would like to think that: oh yes, she’s exploited her uniqueness, or whatever, like that. I just am what I am. If you want to make me unique in that regard that’s you doing that. At the end of the day that’s so superficial. You don’t exist in the political arena, you know, for that time, without some actual ability and being able to do the job and actually on the ground. Let me put it to you this way: Conservative rural New Zealand, perhaps others, but in this instance conservative rural New Zealanders will spot a fake at 50 paces, so you can’t bullshit them. What more can I say? At the end of the day, that’s what it’s got to be. Oh, that I came with the added attraction of big press coverage, not just newspapers but television, all the bloody interviewers of the day on TV, you sort of have your time with me or I with them. They would press the issues of: but you’re a transsexual, you’ve had a sex change. Have you done this? I mean I did 60 Minutes of being asked the most ridiculous, personal, intimate questions that if I asked you, you might be offended at. You know: so after you had your sex change what was the first time you had sex like? This was Genevieve Westcott’s 60 Minutes asking me a question like that, all sorts of enquiry and inquisitiveness that no other person in public office really has to tolerate, but I do. Why? What is this strange curiosity you have with what might happen in my bedroom or in my character. You’re testing my character when I’ve proved again and again by just my work and what I do, and my conduct, that I’m just like any other person who’s a Mayor or who’s an MP or whatever, I carry out my duties. Mm! You know, I don’t know, what else can I say? What else can I do? Some people like to characterize it as a way of character assassination, that I’m just exploiting my difference. Wrong! And if it has appeared that I’ve been able to use that sometimes as a platform to get out a particular message or.... You don’t get invited to UN Conferences on Human Rights because I was an in-the-closet transsexual. No, because I have been able to be out, who I am, be able to have the happy balance of being out and proud about that and talking about it, that I’m lucky enough to live at a time in a country and a democracy where tolerance, at the end of the day, more often than not has prevailed eventually. And yes, there’s still some rough edges around it, but occasionally there are more of us from those significant minorities who have become figureheads, symbols, examples, role models, people to look up to, and that sort of thing, and by God we need them. They’re in every other aspect of life, why the hell shouldn’t we have people like that, to go, well I just happen to be in the happy happenstance that for a period of time, at a moment of time someone like me happened, and that’s provided a platform, especially in the transgender community, to become emboldened and confident that they can participate more fully in society than otherwise we had been able to. And that has spilled out around the world. It’s not as if I would have been the first out transsexual to have attempted public office, I was just lucky enough to be the first one to achieve it. Many others who’ve done it before me failed, but those are the ones who are the pioneers. Those are the ones who’ve pushed the boundary to the point where I happened to be lucky enough, you know, at that moment in time for it to happen. And to be able to be a positive force as an event that happened, a click forward in our political progress and our social progress, I’m just one of many, and a few of us are celebrated for it. You know, it’s like Christine Jorgensen, the first, you know.... If anybody thinks we want to live these public lives like that, they’re quite mistaken. It’s a bit different for someone who’s relying on their queenliness or whatever to be their bread and butter as an entertainer, you know, where they might... that’s the gimmick kind of thing. This is no gimmick for me. It never has been. Gareth: So was there ever a time where you just actually wanted to say, just get over it? Georgina: Oh, all the time, but you know, but get over it Georgina, it just is, so live with it, and don’t be arrogant enough to think you’re the only one that has to sort of.... I got called up by the Polish media last year because the third out transsexual in the world has been elected to a Parliament in Poland. And she had cited in her media engagements during her campaign and stuff like that, that I had been – me and New Zealand – had been an inspiration for her to be able to find the courage and that to press forward with her political ambitions in something like Poland. Well that’s pretty good, you know? And there she is now, and she is the only one in the world at the moment who happens to be in Parliament. Okay, you know, it’s a distinction. I hope she’s doing a good job. I met the second out transsexual in the world who got elected, a lady by the name of Vladimir Luxuria, who was elected into the Prodi government in Italy a couple of years ago. That it only lasted about nine months is neither here nor there. And she was on the Communist Party to Italy. But her and I met at a gay human rights conference in the Mexican Parliament that I went to a few years later. I said that was quite an historic meeting for me and her, meeting for the first time, you know, the both of us, that kind of thing. But there are many other transgender people all around the world who have managed to get into public office, maybe not up at that level, but on education boards I think Hawaii elected a transsexual. It’s happening all over. I could sort of be held responsible for helping a bit of that to burst through and just by the sheer fact that New Zealand – you know, let’s give New Zealand credit here rather than me – and the vehicle of me, who, let’s not forget I’m not the only one in this country that’s served in local government. Jacquie Grant, who served down on the Grey District Council for a couple of years, a couple of terms, you know, she’s been successful too in that arena. I just happened to be... I just got in before her (laughs), and so sort of took that one. So, my political achievements and elections and stuff have been one thing. The fact that we’ve been able to... that I and the wider queer community here and around the world have on occasion been able to use it is a good example of why we should be a more accepting and open and inclusive country. And that’s the aspiration of many overseas, too. I’ve done a lot of speaking overseas at gay international forums, whether it be United Nations doing HIV AIDS work, I’ve been to conferences in Kobe and Copenhagen and all over the place, particularly in Montreal, and yeah, all over the place where I’ve been asked to go and give a keynote address. And I’ve never failed to talk a bit about our, you know, the New Zealand example so far, and where I fitted in to that – not the only one. So in that sense, yes, I do use the platform that’s... well, if you’re going to build this up around me then I might as well now that I’m out of politics proper and all of that sort of thing, if anyone wants to use that excuse. Gareth: How do you feel about people claiming parts of you? So like say a community, a specific community saying, oh, you’re our.... Georgina: Look, strangely enough I think there is, even in our LGBTI community there’s elements of cynicism and contempt towards me, and many who would despise me, and even among the queen scene there’s sort of the bitchy: well who the hell does she thing she is? kind of attitude. And people always want to.... Tall poppy syndrome, I suppose is what emerges from time to timeSorry, what was the question again? Gareth: Oh, just when people kind of claim ownership of [crosstalk]. Georgina: Oh yes. Yeah, yeah. Well I’ve got to choose whether or not I’m going to buy into it or to allow that to happen. I don’t mind really if it.... You know, what’s happened has happened. It’s a good news story, I think by and large. Some of my life experience will reflect with others who have had similar, and it provides a... yeah, and if it’s to be used for good or to broaden minds, or whatever like that, then I will. I mean, I’ve had my battles with conventional society in the past, certainly in politics, certainly over civil unions and prostitution reform and legislation like that where I was sort of just about: oh well yeah, of course you would support something like that! You know, that sort of natural assumption that I would, but it came with caveats, I must admit, when I did it. And also if that isn’t an example to the gay community who do have cynicism about my time and my era and my abilities and all of that sort of thing, well excuse me – who was it who made the conscious decision that on serious votes like prostitution reform, like civil unions, like de facto property relationship stuff, that I went against what my electorate wanted me to do and what those who voted me and whose duty I owed in that sense to, to stand up for the moral principle of what I thought was right. Truly used my conscience without thinking of the... well, yes, I did think, but knowing, understanding that there was a political risk to it, but regardless of that I had to do what I felt was right in my heart even though it might have been against my Party when it came to Foreshore and Seabed or whether it be those other two pieces of legislation. Gareth: Did you find being in the spotlight that suddenly a whole lot of people would just contact you and say: this is my story. Did you find that suddenly you were...[interrupted] Georgina: Oh, a lot of people did and I used to find that my electorate sometimes, somebody in my electorate office and my electorate staff would occasionally get people in and they had children or relatives or people that they wanted to talk to me about because they thought that they might be gay or they might be transgender or whatever. And they didn’t know anybody else who they felt that they could go and talk to about it, so they’d access their way to me because my life and my story and who I am was out there, they sort of... it was almost like they knew me. There’d been the documentaries on television, there’s been this, so there’s not a lot that people don’t know about me and they either, you know, went with the highs and lows of all of that sort of stuff and they sort of felt a connection to me and felt confident enough to come and talk to me about what they found to be a shameful issue for them or something to deal with they didn’t know. So that was sort of interesting that people would see me in that sort of counseling kind of way. I would always refer people to more appropriate professionals who might deal with it. But sometimes just on a face to face, one on one, I remember grandparents bringing a couple of their grandsons to me who were very gay and very campy, and they were convinced they wanted to be trannies and were threatening to leave home. And the grandparents were looking after them and all of that sort of thing at the time. And they wanted to go to Auckland and get into the K Road scene and all of that. And the grandparents had the foresight, really, to actually bring them to me, just asked me to talk with them for an hour and then to sort of feed back to the grandparents what I thought, and I did. In a couple of years after that I heard from the grandparents again, but also from one of the boys, and they thanked me for my advice at the time that saved them from potentially an unnecessary deviation in their life. They were convinced they were going to go and be, you know, queens on K Road, but in fact they realized really they were just gay guys, (laughs) and they were really glad they came before they went. And they were 16, 17 years old, and so that was just the prime – same time as I was – to just sort of, you know, gravitate there. And in fact perhaps that isn’t quite what they really were, they were just having a moment, so to speak, and a kind of gay puberty (laughs) and adolescence until they settled on what they were. And very much happier for them, I might have saved them a few years of chucking themselves in a frock and selling their wares on K Road and all of that kind of thing, and the drug culture. So, that was sort of won. I had a mother with a 10, 11-year-old son who had naturally gravitated towards being transgender, was now starting to go to school dressed up as a girl while all the schoolmates had seen him as a boy, and all of that sort of stuff. And the mother was quite happy to help and support this transition that was happening in her young 10-year-old son, but that came with not only an ostracism for him at school but an ostracism for her as a mother, and the neighborhood and the neighbors and stuff like that. And they came to... actually I was still Mayor of Carterton. I was there at Carterton when they came to see me about that. So yeah, I provided.... You know, a lot of people would write emails and letters and things. Gareth: Can you describe for me what it was like giving your maiden speech in Parliament. Georgina: (laughs) Well, I angsted over what one writes in a maiden speech, I guess as all MPs do when they’re making their maiden speech. There were certain conventions about what you include in your maiden speech – acknowledgement of the Queen and so on and so forth, and Parliament and few sorts of obligatories that are meant to go in there, and then you go onto it. I tried... I would get halfway down the page of writing something and think, well what is this rubbish I’m writing? And I normally speak off the cuff and from the heart and if I need information or a few bullet points that’s something I might do. Jonathan Hunt, who became the speaker of that Parliament wanted us all to submit our maiden speeches to him to review before we made them in Parliament to make sure that they ticked all the boxes and stuff like that, and I never submitted one. And the day of my maiden speech comes up, and not only that, the media wanted an advance copy too of my maiden speech so they’re all prepared for as soon as I’d said it in the House they could publish it. And when they rang me up and asked me for it in advance I turned around and sort of said, well you’ll have to wait until Hansard’s written it. And of course they said, but Hansard can’t write it until you’ve delivered it. And I went, that’s right. So I said you can wait with everybody else, because I don’t know what I’m going to say yet. So Jonathan was very nervous about when it came time for me to do my maiden speech because he didn’t know what I was going to say in advance. And it wasn’t actually an outrageous speech or anything like that. And I mentioned all the things that were meant to mention and added a few quips along the way, and it turned out to be a delightful maiden speech and brought the house down. It was like a mini Georgina show for the eight and a half minutes or however long I spoke for. And I came out with one or two clippy lines, which were... oh, one in particular that was picked up by the media will probably end up being my epitaph, but it brought the house down. And it was a way of breaking the ice, I think, because you know, I was the first tranny anyhow to be standing in our Parliament and there were a lot of homophobes sitting around in there and a lot of uncertain people about me being there, and I came out with my famous, “This is the stallion that became a gelding and then a mare, and now I seem to have found myself to be a member, Mr Speaker.” And everyone could see the humor in that, but that briefly, succinctly sort of covered my entire life story in that nice, pithy little saying. And it got widely reported and televised and all of that and sort of endeared people, at the end of the day, which was good. So, it was off the cuff. Like I said, I mentioned all the appropriate things and even managed to make a quip at Wyatt Creech while I was talking through. So, nothing incredibly remarkable except that I did feel at one point that I needed to acknowledge the fact that I was the first transsexual in New Zealand to be elected to a Parliament, and the world, and that it made it sort of quite a historic moment at that time. Gareth: But I think as a viewer I remember seeing it on TV and it was just amazing. It was just so symbolic and I think for a lot of people. Georgina: People often ask me if they see that footage of it why the hell I was wearing feathers in my hair. Well, so it’s on the public record: those are raukura feathers. I’m of Te Ä€ti Awa descent at Tangata whenua to Taranaki, but Wellington in particular where I was born, and so I was wearing the raukura feathers. That’s why I’m wearing feathers in my hair at that time, not because I thought I had some really tragic drag headdress on. Gareth: Did you ever think to yourself at any time when you started in Parliament, you know, I’m actually finally here? I mean, was there ever a moment where you thought: I can’t believe that I’m actually in this? Georgina: Every day! First thing was on election night. I was in absolute disbelief that I had won, because the results, the way they had come through, and it was a long results process that night on television. And I thought I was... Paul Henry looked like he was going to win, but I had a surge at the very end and suddenly I won. Well, I was in disbelief about that, then actually turning up in Parliament. So, you have election day on a Saturday, you’ve got Sunday to get over it, and then Monday all new MPs head to Parliament straightaway. And I’m farting around going, oh, have I got train fare? Can I get there? Because I didn’t drive. At that point I didn’t drive a vehicle. I didn’t get my driving license until the year 2000. And yes, of course I get to Parliament in just disbelief that I was allowed to be here. You know, this is my place of work. The first week we had to share offices with the other Labor colleagues. Parliament hadn’t quite changed all the offices and everything over and put the National Party in the Opposition offices and vice versa, asked them into the government offices, but that came about. Oh, incredible. Yeah, unbelievable. And of course a lot of media and preliminary stuff before Parliament actually sat and opened and all of that sort of thing, and preparation. And just getting, you know, getting adjusted to this new work environment has to happen relatively quickly, but there’s an awful lot to absorb about how it’s all going to work and how it happens. But yeah, unbelievable. I couldn’t believe it. I’m here, and I’m allowed to be! They’re calling me Ma’am, you know, all the security and people on reception they’re: oh, hello Ma’am. And a lot of people very pleased. You could see it, even some of the staffers around Parliament – yay! You know, fantastic, this whole sort of about me being there. And of course other politicians and that, there were some sort of, they all knew who I was and there was no denying that I was ever going to be sort of a forgotten back-bencher. And so from the moment I think I first went to Parliament I see publicity and profile and that are everything to a new back-bencher. You’ve got to give as much attention to yourself, and of course it just arrived with me, and that was sort of, you know, I was going to be in the spotlight from the get go. It wasn’t like I could just skulk away into the corner of the chamber and be forgotten about or not noticed or whatever. So every time the first time I was going to ever make a speech, the first time I was ever going to do this and that, and whatever: What’s she going to be like on Select Committees? You know, that will be interesting. What kind of dumb, useless questions is that thing going to be asking? You know, just the human dynamics around the table of having someone... it was quite weird. Luckily, of course, of course, and I should not forget, to neglect to mention them, but Chris Carter and Tim Barnett were the only other out gay MPs in Parliament at the time. And of course Chris particularly, but Tim as well, had had to deal with the attitudinal culture inside Parliament by themselves from the time that they’d been in and there’d been some pretty nasty... you know, Chris had famous run ins with John Banks and people like that in the day. So now I’ve come into Parliament, and what? Marilyn Waring all those years beforehand, of course, but that’s only come to pass... you know, she didn’t have to sort of.... Yeah, it’s amazing for those of us that... well, it’s a very few really. Oh, there’s a lot now. (laughs) I mean, Christ just about every second person in Parliament at the minute now. We just made it so common. The pinking of the Parliament as they call it. Gareth: Did you find that there was much discrimination still when you went in? Georgina: No. I found very little of that, and I don’t think.... And because I had a high profile if I say so myself – I’ll leave it up to others to judge as to whether I had a high profile, but I had a pretty high profile for a new back-bench MP – and it was going to be with me, and that the profile was positive, not negative. And yes of course there was a little bit of negativity out there from the naysayers and the fundamentalists and so on and so forth out there, but by and large I was affectionately regarded by many New Zealanders. So to start climbing onto me on that level, for other politicians it would have been very churlish and not something that would necessarily work in their favor. They had to argue me on policy or points or that kind of thing, on the work not the person or my past. And of course when things like prostitution reform came up for debate I was one of the few that could stand in Parliament quite happily regaling my previous experience, and then challenging the House, to say is there anyone else in here who knows it like I do? Of course there wasn’t. You could have heard a pin drop. Of course there wasn’t. A few shameful glances down at the floor, but no. So, that sort of sent a message that this is a matter before us, I’ve got some experience in this, I’m going to put my perspective and my experience and it’s my contribution to the debate and to the House, and all of that sort of thing, and I think people just came to respect that. I think I was lucky enough to enjoy respect from across the House. You know, I’d go and talk to people of my era all the time that I was in there, and for the most part more well thought of than not, and that’s lucky to get in and out of Parliament like that. Gareth: What do you think your proudest moments are in Parliament? Georgina: (pauses) Oh. Oh, I can’t pin them down to one. I guess, obviously, getting there, legitimately being there – that’s always a privilege. I know it’s an oft said cliché, but it’s a privilege to serve in your Parliament. And I got there on merit and I’m proud of that. I’m proud of most of the legislation that I supported, not all of it. I’ve been around for one or two pieces that... oh, it’s like a broken record, but Civil Union and Prostitution Reform were fairly major social pieces of legislation in that decade and I was a vocal supporter of both of them. I wasn’t the promulgator of them, not at all. Actually Tim Barnett was the promulgator of both of those, and I think, and I stand to be corrected, but Civil Union started out as a Members’ Bill and became a Government Bill at the end of the day but yeah, I supported it. And Prostitution Reform, well again that was definitely a Members’ Bill. That was Tim’s Members’ Bill, and I supported him, amongst others. God, I wasn’t the only one, I just happened to be one of the more reported ones. So I’m proud of those debates. I’m proud of the day.... Oh God, there’s lots of things you could say you’d be proud of, I suppose: representing my electorate; getting their hospital; doing all of the things for my electorate that I wanted to do and that they wanted me to advocate for and delivered on. All of that’s to be proud of. Being able to counteract the event known as the Destiny Church and Brian Tamaki and the Enough is Enough march that was anti civil-union bill and pro family-values. And I had some celebrated clashes, public clashes with Brian Tamaki, and won in the end, didn’t I? His Party got kicked to nowhere, didn’t it? Gareth: There was that.... [interrupted] Georgina: My advocacy for significant minorities, I’m proud of those, some of those things that I’ve been able to contribute to when asked and required. Yeah, I’m proud of those, and that’s about being able to use the position to assist, which is what it’s... we are representatives at the end of the day. Gareth: There was that moment with Civil Unions where Brian Tamaki and the church marched to Parliament and that day I remember hearing you speak then, and strong, strong stuff it was to be able to stand up like that in front of such a hateful audience. Georgina: Well, to.... Thank you for that. Yes. I stood on the steps of Parliament that day holding a rainbow flag for about two hours. They were marching down from Civic Square in Wellington, through Buller Street and Lambton Quay down to Parliament. So I had no idea what the march looked like. But in the morning, early in the morning, about 6 AM or sometime like that... now, I had an apartment at Parliament on the 20th floor of Bowen House and I was looking out the window and I could see the stage setup being put up on the forecourt of Parliament and I thought, gee, that’s a bit more than we usually have for protests. We knew that this protest was going to be happening that day, but we didn’t realize, and I certainly didn’t realize, the imagery they were going to present to the nation when they did that march. Six hundred men and boys dressed in black punching the air with their fists, walking down the street saying enough is enough. And it looked something like out of a Nuremberg rally. And I had stood on the steps of Parliament holding this rainbow flag, waiting for them to arrive on the forecourt. Eight thousand turned up in the end, and they all.... And a small group, about 150 of pro civil-union supporters dressed in their orange and white sort of uniform, for want of a better term, that was the colors of the campaign for civil unions at that time. And they were gathered around the Seddon Statue at Parliament. And as the Destiny Church Enough is Enough march arrived at Parliament grounds, from my vantage point on the landing on the steps of Parliament they looked like a black cancer spreading across the front lawn of Parliament and engulfing the orange and white clothed civil union protestors. And it looked like they were isolated and they were being..... And the stage setup had been set up for Brian Tamaki to do his evangelizing from at the protest. And he arrived accompanied by about 40 other pastors from around the country, and a bevy of henchmen, and they marched him up to the stage like in Roman formation, and that sort of thing, and started off this rally. And I’m standing on the steps. Sue Kedgley joined me, Sue Bradford joined me, a few others, you know, MPs who happened to be there came out and joined me, and Ramon Maniapoto came and stood with me and to sort of chaperone me and look after me up there while they’re protesting. It’s fine. And there’s famous television footage of Brian addressing that rally, and I happened to remark while I’m standing on the steps at one point where he would have a blurb and then he got 8,000 people responding with, “Enough is enough!” punching the air. And I just said aloud, realizing the press gallery, and most of them had come out onto the steps of Parliament, and I said, “Oh my God, I feel like I’m standing in a Nuremberg rally!” You know, and I’m looking shocked and horrified because it did... you could sort of feel this hatred coming forth from these people, in that sense. And other journos, they said sort of: yeah, God, you know, that’s pretty amazing. And after they had finished having their rally I said to Ramon, “I’ve got to go down,” because I could see the pro civil-union people standing around the statue, and they were distressed. They were being pushed and jostled and verbally abused and all of that, and I just headed down to them, got through the barriers that the security had put up and stuff like that to go down and to talk to them and to just sort of be with them in a solidarity kind of thing. I got pushed and jostled and ridiculed and abused and everything as I got there, and Ramon got very scared for me and dragged me back up onto the forecourt behind the protection of the barriers and stuff like that. Now, Destiny had set up a sound system the Rolling Stones would have been proud of – big loud megaphone, you know, full-on amplified system – and they were still talking on the microphones. I think the Christian Heritage Party person was yabbering away. And I just got this angry... this sort of anger welled up in me and I marched along the front of the forecourt talking back at them, and of course I was yelling at them because they had this big loud loud-system, you know, and it’s not as if they were listening to me, and they were all taunting me and pointing at me and stuff like that. And I just stopped, and I can’t remember exactly what I said, but the press pack went in after me and followed me because they were behind the safety barriers too and just sort of came in around me and captured this interaction I had with the people. It played on the television news that night and I looked like some screaming banshee, because I was. Remember, I’m trying to battle and be heard over a loud hailer system and I haven’t got anything like that to amplify, and so it looks like I’m a screaming banshee. And I’m saying: why do you hate us so much? and so on and so forth and that kind of thing. And that ended up on television and it didn’t look that good, actually. Some... obviously there were.... For the gay community and for those of our friends who supported our things like that, they were going, yeah! yeah! You know, saying how people felt – you know, why this and and all of that. But luckily, the following day Paul Holmes, on The Holmes Show on television, got me and Brian Tamaki doing a head to head in the studio – so a much more controlled and serious environment in which to debate the issue and stuff like that. And yes, one of my proud moments: I demolished him with my arguments – Brian Tamaki – and with the assistance of Paul, I have to say, because he was being fair minded and balanced in his question and quizzatorial approach. But then toward the end of it he suddenly started to chuck a few other things at Brian, because you could tell Paul was sort of really on the side of us, you know, and my argument, and Tamaki was not acquitting himself well. And so when he started asking about the tithing and the fabulous Rolex watches and your mansion house and your Queen Mary II’s and all of this sort of thing, Brian gets very defensive during that. And so, but on the serious side, I was able to brush off some of the critics that were coming out and saying: Ah, she’s just a drama queen using overly emotive language. And what do you mean? Why do they have to raise Hitler and the Second World War? You know, all of this kind of thing being thrown out, but because they happen to be in denial about these things is not my problem. (laughs)And luckily on the few television battles and radio battles that I had at that time just over that particular march and the whole Destiny, and the Civil Union thing, like that, you know, right won out at the end of the day and I was just a part of it. There must have been others, too, at the time, but I just sort of tended to get a bit more attention. Really, the grunt behind it all was Tim Barnett, at the end of the day, as far as shepherding through these pieces of legislation and keeping the movement that’s helping that to happen cohesive and happening and serious and professional and all of that. And I was a mouthpiece, I guess, at the appropriate times to get in there and fight it. Gareth: What do you think the hardest parts of being an MP were? Georgina: Mmm. Oh, the long hours. The dealing with the myriad, the wide – I mean, that’s not a boring day. (laughs) There’s always something happening. I think keeping up with the pace required was quite difficult. I didn’t enjoy always the discipline of collective responsibility in a government caucus, having to support things I didn’t really want to but I’d been Party whipped into doing things. Foreshore and Seabed is an example of that where I was disobedient but in the end of the day I had to capitulate and vote in favor, and I really didn’t want to. And then frustrated them and Helen, I suppose, by still speaking out about how I felt and that I felt terrible about having to vote in favor of it, when really once the caucus has decided you’ll do it, you’ll put on a happy face like, yeah, we’re happy about doing this – not. You know, and I would just sort of have to deal with it, but I then, I guess, showed some disobedience. And I think... I think... I might be wrong, but I think that was the beginning of the end of my ever progressing any further in Parliamentary politics. At the 2005 election I definitely wanted to leave then but was persuaded to stay on for my final term, and I went back as a list MP. I wanted, because of the way that I’d quoted myself during the Civil Unions Debate and all of that, and I had a Members’ Bill on the ballot at the time, and after the ’05 election I was touting for a promotion of some sort, I wouldn’t have minded a minor Ministerial role, to start sort of moving into that level. I figured that I’d sort of paid my dues, I’d done my time, I’d won an election a couple of times and all of that sort of thing, and I think I had the ability to take on a more responsible role. But it wasn’t forthcoming so I sort of lost my mojo, really, about wanting to stay there. You know, what for? What am I here for then if I can’t professionally develop in this regard? I’ve achieved everything I said I was going to achieve for my electorate. I had stood down from the seat and gone back as a list Member. I couldn’t get my Members’ Bill through, the Gender Identity Bill through, because we had a much more conservative Parliament. And I can still remember the caucus where... of the new caucus, and after the ’05 elections screaming at me to get rid of the Bill because many of them had lost their seats over all of this, all of this controversial legislation and stuff like that, and they were a bit tired of it all and so I didn’t have their support. That was disappointing. I had to go for plan B on that matter, and now I see that it’s been somewhat addressed in the current Marriage Equality Bill before the House, the Gender Identity matter. So I decided to leave, and way before I needed to. I left in 2007. I could have stayed until the 2008 election but I thought, well, what would I be sitting around for? You know, I’d tied off the ends of things that I’d wanted to achieve, and that was that, and instead of sitting on my backside in there just raking in the money doing damn all I decided to leave then. And that was fine. Gareth: Was it what you expected it to be? Georgina: Parliament? I don’t know what I expected it to be. (laughs) It was a place that made laws. It was a place that could wield an influence over your community and things like that. No. No, Parliament hasn’t disappointed me at all. The institution of Parliament I hugely respect and admire and think for all its flaws we have a pretty damn good democracy in the world scheme of things. And it truly can provide anyone with the opportunity to participate in our democracy if they want to, and that’s becoming more and more apparent, I think particularly under this MMP environment – the proportional representation environment – that’s offered that louder and more diverse voice to be heard in Parliament. That doesn’t always bode well for those that prefer the old way, but I like the idea that we’ve got a lot of color in that Parliament. We don’t want it to be monochrome. Gareth: So you left in 2007, and between 2007 and now in 2012, there have been a number of articles with headlines like “Broke and Living Off the Unemployment Benefit”, not being able to get work. How has it been after leaving Parliament? Georgina: More difficult than actually getting there. Yes. No, no, it has been not good, and I can’t quite analyze why that is other than the odd bits of work that come along now. That’s not been good. That’s exactly how it’s been like. I can’t answer as to why. It’s not as if I haven’t got ability, although I don’t have any formal qualifications. No, it’s very difficult. Gareth: And I’m guessing it must be quite difficult actually having those kind of stories written in newsprint as well. Georgina: Oh, well only from the perspective that it’s not good when the potential employer Googles your name and there it is. It’s hardly an endorsement, is it, for people? But on the other hand, if I’ve had media enquiries about what am I doing, I mean, I could bullshit but to what end? So, it just is what it is, and you tell it like it is and they report the truth. That’s the truth. (laughs) That’s how it is, otherwise they’d be writing about how I was hiding the fact that I’m... (laughs), you know, and all of that sort of thing. I don’t know. It’s hard to explain why. I mean, there are certain jobs I don’t want to do regardless of being, you know... and Paul Bennett takes a swipe at me from time to time over that, even in the House now, because I once said in some newspaper article that yes, of course I’m out there job hunting but I don’t necessarily want to be a crew member at McDonald’s, thank you very much. (mimics) Oh, but there’s dignity in flipping burgers at McDonald’s. Well yeah, I’m sure there is, but not for me. I mean, that’s the other.... You know, I’ve become used to it now, but can you imagine the first day, post-Parliament career, that I had to walk into the Masterton Work and Income office, where the last time I had attended there had been with the Minister of Social Development of the day, or the Prime Minister even, to visit the place to register unemployed and ask for the dole? Humiliation to the max. And that I had sold all my property, my house and stuff that I had bought and all the things that I’d had in order that I didn’t have to go on the dole, and lived off all of that sort of stuff thinking a job will come, a job will come. It didn’t. People who you had known collegially, worked with in the past, might have helped, whatever, in the course of your job, now sort of almost cross the street if they see you coming. The doors close. People don’t want to know you now because you’re not a person of influence anymore, of any particular standing, other than that you’re a has-been now. And certainly some of the old prejudices, I think, and some of the old spitefulness and whatever can come back because now I’m not in quite as strong a position as I might have been when I was in Parliament or I was the Mayor or I was this person. That’s interesting to watch that dynamic happen. There’ll be those within the scene who are quite happy to have seen one toppled off one’s pedestal and cut down to size – it’s that tall poppy thing again – and who’ll be quite glad about it. And then me, who’s sort of bamboozled about: I’ve got a lot to offer, and it’s not as if I haven’t been out there touting for getting some sort of work. But then when you get confronted with, oh, well you’ve got to have a qualification in this, and I’m not very good on computers and stuff like that. You know, I managed to get through an entire 14, 15-year history of politics without having had a God dang computer, and now suddenly it’s important? You know, yes, it helps if you can use it to a certain degree. You know, and all of those sorts of things, it’s crazy. Oh, bits and pieces of entertainment stuff comes along but, you know, I’m getting on a bit now, getting a bit past all of that. And no one has come rushing out of the woodwork whether it be NGOs, gay advocacy groups, human rights organizations, boards that I could serve on, and all of that sort of thing – none of that’s come up and sort of offered itself or made itself available or anything like that, and yet I’ve got a world of experience. You know, I’ve done stuff. I know how to deal with all of that sort of.... But no. No, no. When you get journos and people like that who tell you to go and reinvent yourself and all of those sorts of things, well, you know: Who the hell are you? What do you mean? I was happy with the old invention, thank you very much. (laughs) What do I have to go and get a new one for? Gareth: There have been a number of instances where there have been either documentary films made about you, there’s been a biopic, but there’s also been your autobiography. Why was it important for you to have your story out there and to kind of keep telling your story? Georgina: The book came about, and the book’s called “A Change for the Better”, written by Cathy Casey and myself, and it came about... I was approached by Random House to consider writing a book about my life as I was coming up to the 1998 Mayoral Local Body elections and so I agreed to do one. I was sort of reluctant because I’d never written a book before, but this colleague of mine, Cathy Casey, who is now an Auckland City Councillor but at that time she was a South Wairarapa District Councillor, so we were Council colleagues, and she did part-time journalism as well as being a teacher. And when Random House asked me if I would consider having a book written about my life, I said, “But I’m no author. I can’t write. I don’t want to do it.” And they said that they would provide me with a writer unless I knew of someone myself. And I said Cathy, and yes, that’s how it came about. And essentially all that happened was Cathy turned up with a tape recorder and I just sat down and we just talked and she transcribed what I said. And virtually verbatim the book is that conversation. It didn’t have any editing done to it when we submitted the draft to Random House, except for punctuation, spelling and stuff like that. It was fine and so it got printed the way it was done. And that’s how that got done. And it got published of course when it was realized that I was going to run. Oh, and the book ends as I’m about to head into the 1998 Mayoral election, so I had no idea what the result would be by the time the book was, you know, finishes, comes to an end. But of course what happened was I did get reelected and my majority was huge, and then Parliament subsequently happened in ‘99. And the book was published and went out on the shelves in ’99, heading into it. So, obviously the publishing company sort of timed that to go along with the consequential publicity around my election campaign. When it got published I can remember, I won’t name her, but one reasonably senior Labor MP, who was to become a Minister, later I can remember her saying to me one day, “What the hell are you doing publishing a book now? It’ll be terrible. Oh, God, the hassles you’ll get from it,” because it was a tell-all story, and all of this kind of thing, and it’s going to be a terrible blot on my copy pad. At the time, of course, it was absolutely contrary; the absolute opposite happened. And so that was how the book came about, and like I say it ends just prior to the 1998 election, and there’s now another book to be told because of what happened after that, there’s a book in itself. That’s how the book came about. The documentary that I think aired in about 2002 was made.... It’s called “Georgie Girl” and it’s a 70 minute documentary made by Annie Goldson of Occasional Film Productions, and she approached me just out of the blue. I had never met her in my life. I didn’t know who she was. And now I was in Parliament and I think she came to me in about 2001 or something and said.... No, she came to me in 2000, actually not long after I got elected, and asked and I said no. I said I was too busy adjusting to my new work life and I didn’t need to have a fly on the wall documentary crew running around with me, and so delayed it until I was ready. And then because I didn’t know her, not that I didn’t like her or anything but I just didn’t know her and I felt a lot more comfortable when we were able to bring Peter Wells on board. And so he sort of co-directed with her on it, and that’s how “Georgie Girl” got made. And it did very well for her. She’s won four or five or so International Best Documentary Awards for “Georgie Girl”. And that was virtually a tell all. Well it was a fairly open tell-all story about me. And the advantages of those kinds of... of doing that kind of thing is that when I stopped, stuff is documented and then it provides some concrete hard-copy, I suppose, for other people to utilize how they will. So the “Change for the Better” book ended up in most libraries. I think it’s been translated into Chinese. It’s got three reprints that did quite well. It didn’t make me any money or anything. I know that’s what you don’t want it all about, but that was that. And just a little snapshot of a period of time, a piece of our social history. And the “Georgie Girl” doco really it just now visually documents a lot of stuff. You know, I didn’t go out pursuing those things, they just sort of came to me and I participated in them. Gareth: Do you ever get tired of telling your story? Georgina: Yes. (laughs) Yes, I guess. Yes and no. Of course you just become like a broken record. Sometimes you just feel like you’re just repeating stuff you’ve said a thousand times before, and why doesn’t somebody ask something different because there’s a thousand things I could tell you that is exactly what I’ve just told you now. But I think as long as people are interested then it’s sort of recumbent upon me to regurgitate it, and to bring it up again if that’s what people are interested in. I’m pretty sure now that most of the document... you know, that stuff is documented because it moves beyond just being a curious human interest story into now historical fact, some of it that’s happened, from a very narrow historical perspective, I suppose, but it’s there and primarily politics but also social politics and also, yeah, just the color of our world. I’m just a little wee part of... I’m a pixel in it. Gareth: Earlier on you were saying that you were speaking at international conferences but I’ve been to a number of things in Wellington where you have been mentioned, and with much love, but you haven’t attended; things like the Human Rights Conference at the Outgames a couple of years ago and a recent Marriage Equality Conference. Are you speaking in New Zealand at kind of queer events? Georgina: No. No, I don’t get asked. I didn’t get asked to either of those things that you have mentioned, not the Outgames Conference nor at the conference on marriage equality. And I don’t know why, but perhaps it’s Georgina overkill. And in a.... I’m not offended by it. I mean, I sort of think: well gosh, I thought I might have been asked to come along and just say a few words, or whatever, because that’s usually been the auspices under which I’ve gone overseas to speak at other big, huge conferences and things is because of this New Zealand experience. But I think probably in New Zealand they’re a bit over me now. And not only that, there’s a new generation of political activism going on for the younger generation, many of whom unfortunately do not have comprehensive memory of our very recent history. And they know of events that have happened but they don’t necessarily know of people who did it, and I guess I might be falling into that category. And now that there are other, you know, it’s those of us who have gone before have laid the groundwork now for those who are the spokespeople and who are being pushed forward to be the advocates and to stand up, and the organizations to do it. And I think people like me sometimes have got to know when to stand back and let that happen, and if they need you and if they want you and if they know you’re available and you’re there, well, you’re there for them. But otherwise you’ve got to let the baby go. You’ve got to let them do it for themselves because, yeah, and I think that’s sort of what’s happening. So, you know, usually at those things you’ve got a whole lot of people and keynote speakers who are getting up and parroting the same thing, just using different lingo. You know, essentially on the same message, so it’s a bit repetitive in that sense to do it. But yeah, you’ve got to let them sort of.... You’d like to think that they would want to seek the advice of the likes of me or others that have been there and done that, purely from an advice point of view: How do we go about doing this? How do we mobilize? How do we strategize? How do we get together a collective, a diverse but a group to act collectively to move forward on a particular matter? At this instance, at the minute it’s marriage equality, you know, and those things. And I think there’s a growing dispersement in the LGBTI community where they became more focused on their particular issues again, you know? The marriage equality thing is, I think, is a dawdle compared to what’s gone beforehand to lay the groundwork to provide the leverage that marriage equality becomes really not a huge... it’s not as hugely... you know, we didn’t see a Destiny Church marching to Parliament yet that I know of. Yes, there’s been a bit of comment and a bit of negativity, but it’s nowhere near the volume that it has been in the past, and it’s nowhere near as devastating because I think, by and large, a large proportion of the general population are over it, you know? Gareth: So what are some of the things that you think are still currently affecting rainbow communities in New Zealand? Georgina: Well, the legislative agenda is practically sewn up. Marriage equality gets through, then that’s that taken care of. It will come with the adoption issue, obviously, is another one of the majors. Then I think it’s got to come down to access to health, social and education as all the other issues that every single other New Zealander has an interest in. We always have had an interest in those things, you know, because we are citizens as well and are entitled to access to all of those sorts of things. Some of them are going to push the boundaries a bit again, like, people will be horrified to know that there is a little bit of miniscule funding available for sexual reassignment surgery in this country – certainly not enough. There’s this dreadful situation of transgender people and the corrections system, you know, and other things like that that need to be more forcefully enforced now, to be concentrated on. But, you know, I think up on to matters like that. But I think the heavy legal framework issues have just about all been tidied up. Gareth: What about in terms of societal change? Georgina: Oh, it’s like I said before: Society’s attitudes take generations to change. Law is easy to change, relatively speaking. But the attitudinal change is improving vastly from what it has, even in my lifetime and certainly within the last 20 years, certainly since Homosexual Law Reform 25-years-plus ago, and social attitude has softened. You cannot accept just to be tolerated. We must be accepted, not just tolerated. You know, you tolerate a whinging dog; you tolerate a squealing cat. You know, you just don’t... we don’t want to be tolerated anymore, the levels of tolerance. The society can take it. Excuse me, I’m a human being and I’m a citizen of this country and we’re taxpayers and generally law abiding. I expect exactly the same treatment as any other New Zealand citizen receives. I don’t want to have to grizzle over how my passport looks because I happen to be a transgender person. I don’t want to have to put up with the ignominy of in court having my butch name called out because that’s how I was once known, as when I have for legal reasons and legally forever been this way. I was outraged privately when the family of a transgender person who’d died in a plane crash on the South Island was paid the indignity of being buried as a man. I mean, you know, and no one to defend her for that happening because of the family’s decision over how they were going to deal with it. We see those kinds of things. That’s about an attitudinal change that is deep seated and very hard to just change overnight. It takes time and it takes.... You know, I think we’ve got to cull out a generation or two (laughs) as they die off for that to become less of an issue. So you look to the younger generation, to the children of today who by and large are holding more softer views on these issues than my contemporaries or your contemporaries and those of our generation, of the baby boomer generation. I think once we get over the baby boomer generation then those are the sort of attitudes we’re starting to see, and not just about LGBTI issues but over a whole lot of other social issues will change over time. But it does, attitude takes time to change and it will only change if the contribution that we as a significant minority in this country continue to prove that we can work and participate in our society alongside everybody else making exactly the same contributions – we work, we pay tax, we raise children, we have families, we maintain law and order, and all of those kinds of things, and there should be no discrimination, no difference between what we are entitled to as citizens as anyone else. That it might challenge your moral issues is, again, their problem that we live with, and that is what we’re trying to change. You know, we’re trying to alter that. I (pauses)... oh, no, I won’t use the word. We’re not looking for forgiveness here, there is nothing to forgive. (laughs) Let’s get that straight to begin with. And so if we’ve got to put that religiousy thing on it, you know, Christianity’s got a hell of a lot to answer for in the misery it’s wrought upon some people’s lives because of belief and faith, and I think it does a disservice to the true sense, in my view, of what Christian goodness is meant to be when some have skewed religious to mean certain things that exclude others or dominate others or, you know, makes us out to be the bad guys. And you know most of the rapists in this world are not gay, and it’s erroneous and completely wrong. I mean, this whole idea that has been proffered by the sensible... oh, by Garth McVicar, that to have same-sex marriage might promulgate in the future more criminal children. I can remember having an argument with Graham Capill, who was then the leader of the Christian Heritage Party in the mid-1990s. In 1996 actually I was Mayor of Carterton, and Parliament had passed the Births, Deaths, and Marriages Registration Act and in it included that postoperative transsexuals could seek a certificate that would have them deemed as female or in their reassigned gender. And oh, he got on the TV and was all outraged about that. (mimics voice) And the next thing you know they’ll be wanting to adopt children and have families! And my argument to him was: What? You’re denying that I should be able... that people like me and others shouldn’t be able to raise families? It wasn’t over. That man was to be done a few years later for paedophilia, and there we are, this upstanding solid member of our community preaching at me and others like me, to the nation, trying to suck us all into that he’s the good, pious person, and it turns out.... And haven’t we found out how many of those solid, cornerstone, upstanding figures in our society have turned out to be some of the most heinous sexual abusers around, as we’ve seen in recent history. So, the hypocrisy is immense. And again, attitudes have got to change. We’re not all like that and I’m as outraged by those kinds of crimes as anyone else. But to deny me or any of my communities, you know, the gay community or whatever, the right to have a family? Family is so different these days, a general definition, you know, blended – there are all sorts of families. And you tell me if anyone is more or less disadvantaged by having two loving parents who may be of the same sex raising children as opposed to a struggling solo parent trying to raise children. I mean, what, are you going to tell me that they’re all criminals too, or that they’re all some moral degenerates? Some may be ferals, as Michael Laws likes to call them, but not all of them are like that. Good God, John Key managed to be raised in a low income poverty, lived in a State house and so on and so forth, and he turned out all right. Paula Bennett – you know, there we are, shining star, solo mum, managed to cram it off the old taxpayer with the advantages she got on her benefit, and as soon as she becomes a Minister wipes it. You know, hypocrisy it’s called, double standards. Yeah, it’s incredible. It’ll get there. It’ll change. You know, I’m glad that there is a young generation now – we may be getting into second generation now – of LGBTI people who are living in a much nicer world and kinder world, a more, yes, forgiving world in many respects than what I experienced or what those who have gone before me experienced, and that’s as it should be. I mean, what’s the whole point when you find yourself thrust into the limelight or the spotlight or whatever, when you’re in a unique position to have somehow helped that change to occur, that if they forget, the young ones these days, forget their history a bit or don’t pay quite the respect and acknowledgment of their predecessors, that’s fine, you know? Far be it for me to get bitchy about stuff like that as long as they are well adjusted and becoming the positive role models that we need to perpetuate into the future, that we can all work pretty much in whatever sphere we wish to go into, and be who we are. You know, it was 30 years ago, and a little bit more, where men particularly just could never come out, for it might risk their livelihood, risk their freedom – they could have been arrested and chucked in jail. Yeah, that’s all changed pretty quick, really, in the scheme of things. Gareth: Who do you look up to? Who do you admire? Georgina: Hmm. (laughs)Gareth: Or get inspired by? Georgina: Oh, God. Well obviously the upholders of human rights and civil rights. I mean there are the Marin Luther Kings of this world, the JFKs, you know, all of those kinds of global figures. And from a Maori cultural perspective I think Te Whiti o Rongomai, people like that. And people who just sort of push the boundaries a little bit, who did it perhaps even without knowing it. Certainly in my own sphere the likes of Chrissy Witoko and Carmen and all the other trannies who were doing the drag shows and had to run between the clubs in men’s clothes, and all of that kind of thing, you know. They didn’t know. They were just doing what they had to do, but each little step provided a platform eventually so that a decade or two later someone like me happens along and things happen because attitudes and visibility has been there. Visibility’s quite important, and I guess if my experience has been of any value for our scene it’s the visibility that it’s provided, and that it wasn’t a caricature, it was a real situation, it wasn’t just an entertainment value, it was something more serious than that. And there’s a public record of achievement too, and I don’t just mean elections and things, but of stuff done that despite the hullabaloo that happens around the media and the sort of.... But you can reflect. As I’ve said before, you can reflect back on how I’ve been written up and talked about, and my willingness. I have to bear some culpability here because I have participated in all of that exposure. I didn’t need to. I could have shut the door at certain points and kept it contained, for want of a better term, but that would only probably inspire the scrutineers even more wanting to get into it, because anything that’s... so I’ve thrown it all out there. And in many respects it’s diffused and diluted any potential for a great, sensational explosion of something that could be quite devastating in a career. If I had kept secret that I was a transsexual, and if I had been successful in my political pursuits, as it turned out to be, but that was a secret nobody knew, well given my backstory on the street scene and the scene anyhow, how on earth could that...? I couldn’t have got on national television and said: Oh, no, I’m a straight lady; I hope to marry and have children one day, and played this whole façade. I would have been outed at the drop of a hat, just like that. And there’s no point in living a lie. Why would you want to live a lie? You shouldn’t have to live a lie. I didn’t have to live a lie and for me that was hugely liberating. And it’s been hugely liberating for all of those that have been able to be out and be who they are in whatever walk of life they have chosen, whatever path they have chosen, to be who they are. Much, much happier people to be who you are when it’s no secret; you don’t have to hide this thing. That’s like in my mother’s era, or whatever, to have been a solo mother and pregnant was a shame. You were shoved away for nine months in the boondocks somewhere to have the baby secretly and, you know, all that horrible, horrible stuff that used to happen with alienation. So yeah, visibility has been a relatively important factor in some of the hullabaloo that surrounded me. I’m a has-been now. (laughs) It’s all over. You know, that’s all sort of put to bed I suppose in that respect, and that’s fine because the next generation have come along to assume the mantles, as it should be. And it’s our responsibility as the older generation to hold a hand out to help them through and to bring them through. You know, we can’t get all selfish and go back into our own and just leave it up to them and let them... if they require it, you know? If they need it. If they want it. Back to that thing about the conferences and stuff like that now here in New Zealand, well you know I was pretty over exposed during my time in public office and so it doesn’t surprise me that they’d move on to the new ones that are coming through. I’ll be very interested to know who the next transsexual to be elected into our Parliament is going to be. And just on that I think that would.... You know, I might not have been able to do what I’ve done if it hadn’t been for a major political party, even though I was reluctant to begin with, if a major political party wasn’t happy for me to be under their banner, so to speak. So that was sort of helpful because it wasn’t like I just came in on some fringe Party into Parliament, or the Greens. They might have expected me to be in the Green Party or something, which I possibly would, but it was a Party that was going to hold government. And I served in a government, not just in a Parliament, and that was sort of a different experience from someone. I mean, I can proudly say that all I ever knew in my Parliamentary life was being in government. I was never in the Opposition. Not many MPs can say that. Not only that I got into Parliament and out of Parliament with my nose relatively clean. At least I got to make a valedictory speech. Not everybody else did – certainly not Taito Phillip Field. Gareth: Maybe just finally I saw a piece from the New Zealand Herald in 2005 and it was “Five Things I’ve Learned so Far”. And I’m thinking, can I read these back to you and get... [interrupted] Georgina: Oh, God. Yes, okay. I know these things can come back to bite you in the backside sometimes. Gareth: (laughing) But they’re really... [interrupted] Georgina: That’s the trouble with speeches off the top of your head. Gareth: But they’re really cool things, and the five things that you noted down were: 1) Be who you are. Georgina: Yes. I stand by that. I have been. Gareth: And you continue to be... Georgina: Yes, yes. Gareth: ... which is incredible. I have so much admiration for you. See challenges as opportunities. Georgina: Yes. Yeah, because otherwise it gets you down. That goes back to my... some of the reflections I had on suicide and bad things that have happened to you. You can walk around with chip on your shoulder all you like, or else you can meet the challenge and sort of know there’s something better than that, you know, and I should have a go at it. Gareth: Don’t dispose of past experiences. Georgina: No, don’t dispose of past experiences at all. You know, that history, for better or for worse, is your makeup. So it’s what makes you who you are. It’s what sustains you until now. I’m not saying live in the past or wallow in it or anything, but just as a marker, you know, it provides points of reference, I think. Gareth: Be upfront. Georgina: Oh, for sure. Well in my life that’s definitely been an advantage. Some might think it’s been a disadvantage, and even though some could seriously say well look at the results of it, like right now, or while I’m having anger, but no, it’s you. Gareth: And the final one is: Believe in what you say, but think before you say it. Georgina: Oh, they were all pretty sensible, I thought, those. Yeah, think before you say something sometimes because you know you don’t want to unnecessarily stomp on other people’s manna, or at least agree to disagree on some things. I mean, I don’t like a lot of the indoctrinal attitudes of the Brian Tamakis of this world, or the Garth McVicars of this world, or the McCoskries of this world, those who have a different view, but I’ll defend their right to say it. And I prefer to see eyeball to eyeball, you know, to look in the eyes of my enemy rather than those that work subversively, out of sight, like the Exclusive Brethren did in the 2005 election. You know, I like to look into the face of it and carry it on there. Gareth: Well thank you so much. I mean we’ve been talking for I think about two-and-a-half hours. Georgina: Oh, okay. Gareth: It goes very fast. But look, I think... [interrupted] Georgina: Have you asked everything you wanted to know? Gareth: No (laughs). No, no, we’ve... Georgina: Well what were some of the other questions? They might have been better. Gareth: No, we’ve covered a lot of ground. It’s been great. Thank you so much because I think there are a whole lot of people out there that really admire what you’ve done and who you are. And just seeing you in Parliament, I mean, the symbolic nature of that gives so many people hope. Georgina: But do they feel the same way with Chris and with Tim and with Marion and with Charles and with Grant and with Marilyn Waring, of course. I think she’s revered in that regard because of her experience, which is incredible. And many others. For the transgender world, yes, but I think apart from that I’m not so special. I think people just enjoyed at the time the whole spectacle of this unconventional politician arriving on the national stage and then the international stage legitimately, cleanly, she’s not the stereotypical tranny, and yet she has been, and all of that. And there were just a whole lot of elements I think that gave people, more people rather than not, a sense of: I feel good about this. I don’t feel badly about it. Good on her! You know, I was some sort of underdog. Battler from struggle street did well! just to pinch a phrase off John Banks. That I was Mayor of his hometown makes me happyGareth: Yeah. I mean, I kind of think it was actually, for me personally that, you know, we had a strong person that knows who they are that is doing the right thing. And actually I really admire that. Georgina: Well, thank you. Gareth: Thank you.

IRN: 868
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/butch_on_butch_val.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004353
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089647
TITLE: Val - Butch on Butch
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Val Little
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Australia; Billy Idol; Blue Note Bar; Butch on Butch (exhibition/series); Cathy Sheat; DOODS (Dykes Out Of Debt); Diva (magazine); Eminem; Glenda Gale; Jac Lynch; Jenny Morgan; Jools Topp; Kapiti Coast District; Lynda Topp; Lyttelton; Melbourne; National Library of New Zealand; New Plymouth; Paul Simon; Pound nightclub; Recreation festival (Wellington); San Francisco; Thailand; The Drag Kings (Wellington); Topp Twins; University of Auckland; Val Little; Wellington; accomodation; alcohol; androgynous; animals; arts; binary; butch; confidence; dance; drag; drag kings; elephants; family; feminism; femme; hockey; identity; internet; lesbian; library; masculinity; modeling; monogamy; music; new age; parody; performance; persona; politics; poverty; relationships; school; self defence; separatism; shooting; single sex schools; sociology; teaching; tomboy; transcript online; university; visibility; volleyball; wildlife sanctuary; women's dance
DATE: 4 April 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Paekākāriki, Paekākāriki, Kapiti Coast District
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 4 April 2015
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Val: I grew up in New Plymouth till I was about 17 and then I went to Auckland University for a few years there and then I moved to Wellington and I’ve been here ever since about 1986, 87 or so. I’ve been in Wellington longer than I’ve been anywhere else. Jac: When you were growing up in New Plymouth were you at girls’ schools or mixed schools? Val: Obviously mixed schools at primary and intermediate but all girls’ school at high school. Jac: How was that for you? Val: It was ok because I had brothers so I always had guys around me and it wasn’t a big deal whereas for some of the girls it was ‘wow look at that boy’, it was kind of a big deal. The other things was my Dad was a teacher at the high school and he’s kind of an eccentric character so that was interesting when people found out that my father was Mr Little, so I couldn’t really be too naughty at school. He retired when I was in my seventh form and that’s when I probably decided to be naughtier. Jac: What were you involved in at school? Val: I think I was in a couple of school plays but mostly sports things so I was into volleyball and athletics. Jac: When you went to Auckland what did you go to study? Val: I think it was drinking mostly (laughs). Well it was back in the day when there were no student loans, we got paid a student allowance and there were no student loans so it was sort of .. it was in Auckland Central, it was out of New Plymouth which was an interesting town to grow up in. Not a lot to do, not a very diverse little city. So being away from home for the first time was like ‘wow, there’s this world out here’ and then doing things like sociology at university it was like ‘wow, you know there’s different ways of thinking’. So I did a BA in English and really enjoyed the humanities and I did better at that than English Literature and all that sort of stuff. I hated English actually, funnily enough. Jac: Were you out in Auckland? Val: No but a lot of my friends were saying I was a lesbian. I had boyfriends. This guy, one of my friends at university said I dressed like a feminist, a butch feminist lesbian and I was quite taken aback partly by that but I was also quite chuffed secretly. I also saw the Topp Twins for the first time in my life busking on Queen Street. They sort of gave me this knowing look and I looked behind me like ‘who are they looking at? Oh me’. Seeing them was just amazingly life changing. I used to go and hunt them down on Queen Street just to look at them and go ‘wow, you can be like this in the world and it’s really cool’. Jac: And you came out then? Val: No, I didn’t. I had some disastrous relationships with boys until I got to Wellington and finally left this terrible relationship and I thought “I need to be on my own for a bit, there’s something going on here that’s not kind of working for me’. And then, I don’t know how I got inveigled into the lesbian community. I started working at the National Library, that’s right, and the wonderful Glenda Gale was around and there were lots of lesbians at the library funnily enough. So I started gravitating towards them and then got invited to a women’s dance at the university which I was nervously excited about. So I went and thought ‘this is ridiculous because there are men here’, they weren’t men. It sounds really cliche but it felt like home. That I’d found where I was meant to be. Jac: What sort of age were you? Val: Twenty-three I think. Jac: So then what did you get involved in, in the lesbian scene in Wellington? Val: I was doing a Masters in Recreation and Leisure Studies so one of the first things I did was organise a recreation festival for lesbians. It was back in the day when there were lesbians and then there was everybody else and we were really into reclaiming, or claiming, our space and our identity. So separate to being women or feminists we were lesbians and it was an interesting time because there was the separatist movement which was all about hating men and denouncing any kind of straightness and all that kind of stuff. There was also new age philosophy which was all about getting in touch with your inner child and all that kind of stuff. I had amazing arguments and conversations with lesbians who were saying things like baby boys should be put down at birth because they are all going to be rapists and blah, blah, blah and women who have ever had sperm in their bodies can never identify as lesbian and all this stuff. So, you know, the conversations would all be around that’s kind of a nazi way of thinking and extremist and how does it benefit us as a community and then on the other side we were weeping tears for our misspent childhoods, like getting in touch with crystals and weird stuff. Jac: Not your scene? Val: It was a very confusing mixed up time. It was an interesting time in terms of the movement, you know, for queer or for lesbians. I look back at it now and I kind of laugh but I also understand how important that time was. Lesbian visibility was something that was so important and things have changed now. I’m kind of torn because sometimes I think lesbian visibility is something that we don’t see yet things have changed. I think the younger generation are far more kind of tribal so it’s not just separatist kind of communities, that we’re working together. Jac: So you’re talking about the 1990s? Val: Yes, the 1990s. Jac: I remember those, we were in the same sort of circles then. Were you living in a lesbian flat? Val: I sort of lurched from monogamous relationship to monogamous relationship. And of course, you know, moved in after a few months. Oh no, not all of them. But yeh flatted with lesbians and then lived with girlfriends. Jac: You were one of the women’s self defence teachers? Val: Yes, I gave it a go. Part of my thesis when I was doing my Masters was around looking at recreation programmes that aim to empower young women and so I followed Jenny Morgan around doing self defence. She’s one of my heroes by the way and I just recently told her that and just got really interested and involved in it. I didn’t get fully qualified as such but I did some courses for young women doing modelling school. It was a school holiday programme and it was a modelling agency which I thought was a really great thing that they included self defence as part of the training and so I was working at the council at the time so would just pop up there at lunchtime in the school holidays and run this hour-long session. Years later I’d have these gorgeous young women come up to me and say ‘Oh I remember you, you did the self defence course. It changed my life and blah blah blah’, so it made me think that even an hour of this stuff really makes a difference to people, yeh.” Jac: I remember you getting in touch with me about 12 or 15 years ago for us to all meet up at Pound nightclub to discuss this phenomena called Drag Kinging. What sparked that for you? Val: I was going to Pound and watching the Drag Queens and loving what they did but I’ve always thought ‘why aren’t women doing things? Why aren’t more women skateboarding and all that sort of stuff.’ So thinking ‘why don’t lesbians do this stuff? There are so many talented lesbians. Cathie Sheat, you were doing stuff, there was all sorts of other people performing. I thought let’s all do something together. One of the things I always wanted to do was looking at boy bands and thinking about some really hot dykes doing that stuff. So I sort of handpicked some people that I already knew were performing and you were one of them and that was because you’d won the what was it? Ms Gay Wellington? What was it called Ms Separatist Lesbian? Ha, no. So people raving about how great you were on stage. You’ve always been out there doing MC-ing and that sort of stuff. Jac: So you got a few of us together. Val: There were about six of us because people told their friends and flatmates and it kind of grew from there. Of course, we had to have a meeting about it. But really part of that for me was about getting the mandate to organise something together. Jac: This was re-internet. So where do you find out about the Drag King movement. Magazines. trip to Australia? Val: Must have been from magazines. The English Diva, they probably, yeh, I don’t know. Jac: Cos now you can YouTube it and there are websites dedicated to it but really at that time we didn’t have anything to go off eh? Val: Yeh it was happening in the States, they were quite big on it. But I kept looking at the queens and thought yeh, let’s have women doing this stuff. Jac: So in terms of our own research it was really about just that, coming up with stuff and calling it the Drag Kings. We were really fortunate because we could just grab the name. Val: That’s right, it was kind of like a brand that we just grabbed and used. Jac: That troupe went for, off and on, 12 years? Val: Twelve, 13? Jac: Can you remember those first shows and what we put into those first shows? Val: Yes. Jac: Without talking about Cotton Eye Joe. Val: No, I’m not going to go there, I’m still traumatised by that one. I remember We Will Rock You, which took forever to get the moves right and they were. We did boy band stuff really. Just parodying boy bands and being characters. So the first show we did was at Pound and that was in 2001 I think. I’ve still got the posters. I’ve got some archives and I’ve actually gifted them to LAGANZ on my demise. Then we did our first full show at Bluenote and I still remember the opening number was one I did which was I’m A Woman. So I was dressed up in this glittery sparkly frock and I had my back-up boys. I loved it. Jac: We got a pretty good crowd in all those shows I remember. Val: Yeh we had an amazing following really. Even to this day people say ‘Oh, are the Drag Kings going to do stuff again?’ and still remember us quite fondly, yeh. Jac: Tell us about some of your main characters. Val: I really like parody. I like looking at how people perform like Tina Turner who’s got such a distinct sort of style about her and has also been done a lot by Drag Queens. I thought ‘well I’d love to do her’, you know what I mean. And one of the highlights of doing the performance of her was someone coming up to me afterwards an dying ‘I could have sworn you were a Drag Queen’. So that whole thing of a woman dressing up as a man dressing up as a woman. Yeh, I was delighted. I love doing boy band characters with a little goatee, piercings and that kind of look. There’s something about doing that kind of stuff where you do start to create a whole persona and start to become more aware of your own masculinity I guess. Part of that in our society masculinity is very much tied up in confidence and I felt like I got a lot of confidence around doing that stuff. Jac: Are there characters that you still want to do? Val: Yeh, my sister and her son and my nephew came into town for the Billy Idol concert and so I drive them into town and all the way we had Billy Idol rocking the car. So I came home and YouTubed him and thought ‘oh yes, I so want to do Billy Idol’. He’s next. Jac: Any particular song? Val: Rebel Yell. That’s the best. Jac: Did you ever get any grief about the Drag Kings? Val: Yeh in the last few years there’ve been a bit of mumbling about the binary thing. Yeh you know there’s kind of the political stuff. It’s cool as long as people are thinking about it, that’s great, let’s have a discussion, that’s what arts about. At a recent thing I did an Eminem number in which he starts off doing ‘Cleaning Out Your Closet’ and then ends up as Diana Ross doing ‘I’m Coming Out’ so you know so it’s stripping away that tough persona and ending up as queer as fuck. Somebody posted a photo and somebody posted a comment saying that ruined the night for him because Eminem is a homophobic twat and all that sort of stuff and that we should have not had my number in it. At first I thought ‘ooh that hurts so much’ and then I thought ‘no, this is great’ cos I was pretty good at impersonating Eminem but they kind of missed the point because people kind of came in and started defending and discussing and I thought ‘this is good’. Jac: And the Drag Kings kind of always set up a forum for discussion in terms of what we were doing. Some people probably read us a little bit more deeply than what we actually were. And we went to Melbourne. Do you want to talk about how it was for us going to Melbourne that time? Val: It was a buzz to be involved in something semi-international I guess and I was looking at some of the other acts and thinking ‘gosh, we’re so different, we’re so unique in what we do’. The characters that we do, we try to tell a story, group numbers which you didn’t see a lot of. The Melbourne ones were very much characters that they’d created and they would just be that character. A lot of their stuff was very penis oriented and that’s not the only thing about being male. I liked it that we were being ourselves but with these different characters and could play. Jac: I remember us all noticing that. That was really the first time that we’d seen a whole lot of other Drag Kings, at this extravaganza, and pretty much every act ended up with that cock joke. We’ve done that occasionally but it’s never really been a real focus of what we’ve done. So yeh you set up quite an amazing thing for Wellington and we did travel, you know, Lyttelton. Val: I remember one of my highlights was the Topp Twins coming to see us in Auckland. I think it was Linda standing in the aisle and I had just done Tinna Tuna and she was clapping and smiling and she said ‘bloody gorgeous’ and that was a highlight for me. I thought ‘wow if she liked it, it must be good’. Jac: Yeh, you made it. Val, in the Butch on Butch photo exhibition we took a photo of you in a music shop in town and we’ve got record albums behind you. Can you talk about the significance of that setting for you? Val: Music has always been a big part of my life. Grew up with different music in my house. I had an older sister and two older brothers and a twin so we all had quite different musical tastes. I have fond memories of rifling through records at the weekends and there’s something about records where you had your artwork as well, you know, the covers. But I’ve always been moved and touched by music and I used to pretend to be musicians and it was my happy place. One of them was Paul Simon, I wanted to be Paul Simon. So music is really important to me and I love dancing. Jac: And you’re a DJ. Val: Part-time DJ yeh. Jac: And what’s your DJ name? Val: My DJ name is DJ Bullitt. And that’s a play on the fact that I’m a Taurus and a Little. But also I was shot at the first time I ever DeeJayed. I’d been going to the DOODS dances which were the lesbian dances that were held monthly. Jac: Dykes Out Of Debt. Val: That’s right, and I always thought ‘ oh they should play this song, and oh they should play that song’. So I thought ‘put your money where your mouth is’ and offered to DJ. So I offered to DJ and they said ‘yeh come along’. With music I’m always dancing, and everything I do I just dance, coming out of the shower I just dance. And the music I listen to I thought was grey and really danceable so I took along my little collection of CDs and realised actually not everyone knows these songs, just cos I do and you know love dancing to them. So I was shit, actually quite shit. And didn’t have a big collection so was kind of repeating some songs. So anyway where the DJ booth was, was right by the window by the road but it was upstairs. I was bending over to get a CD or something and I felt something whiz past my head and I thought ‘that was weird’. That night was just disastrous. A very drunk woman came up and said ‘your music is shit, I’m going to bash you’. Like she actually had to be dragged out. Looking back I think I don’t blame her (laughs). But no it was a disastrous night. On the Monday I was reading the paper and this was an article about some guys that had been driving up and down Courtenay Place and Tory Street which was where the thing was shooting air pistols at places, and people and nightclubs. So I rang the police and said ‘look I don’t know, it might be a coincidence, but I have a feeling I was shot at on Saturday night. So they investigated it. They went up to the nightclub and I got this letter from the police that said ‘we can confirm that the pellet that went past your head was from an air gun, blah blah, the case is now closed’. So I had this letter and it was like ‘wow this is street cred man, I’ve been shot at, a DJ that’s been shot at’. So yeh, it has to be DJ Bullitt. Jac: Kind of harrowing but perfect as well. Val: I’ll always have that letter. I will frame it one day. Jac: You’ve been on a recent holiday to Thailand and you went to help out at a sanctuary for elephants. Can you tell us about your interest there. Val: It’s one of those bucket list things. I’d love to work on a sanctuary with wild animals and I love elephants. So a few years ago a friend of a friend had been talking about how she and gone to this sanctuary so I sat down and talked with her about how do you do it. So she told me and gave me the name of the sanctuary. So I thought I’m going to be the girlfriend of the century and took my girlfriend who also loves animals and is really passionate about animal welfare, I’m going to shout her for her birthday a trip to Thailand to this sanctuary. It took months and months to do that and I had to keep it a secret and it was really really hard. So I presented it to her and then we had to wait cos her birthday is in October and mine is in May and we were going to go on my birthday the following year. In the meantime we did lots and lots of reading about sanctuaries and in Thailand especially. We went there and for about two weeks volunteering and it was absolutely exhausting. Getting up at 6 O’Clock every morning and then doing basically 12 hours on really physical stuff like scrubbing out pools with little scrubbing brushes in the middle of the day with Thai heat and then feeding out to 600 animals. Learnt so much about the plight of animals and the whole dichotomy of poverty and what that drives people to do. That sanctuary was run by a guy who was a bit of prick actually and there was a big falling out and it was all yucky so we hard about this other sanctuary that was very small and pretty much dedicated to elephants run by an englishwoman so my partner and I, we just looked at each other sand said ‘we’re going’. It dills my heart. I can’t actually describe what it’s like to be around these animals that should be in the wild but they’ve been totally abused and exploited for tourists and now they get to live the rest of their lives out in freedom, comfort and being looked after. What blows me away is their resilience and how they trust human beings after what they have been through. teaches you a lot about yourself and about other people and about the world. The first one was north but the second one was about half way between Chiang Mai and Bangkok. Everyone should go. It was beautiful. One of the guides there, we’re friends and we’re always chatting on Facebook. Jac: Coming back to the photo exhibition, do you want to say why you became involved in that? Val: I kind of feel a bit of a fraud because I’m not sure that I identify as butch and then I have to think about that, is that butchphobia? The reason why I wanted to get involved was I saw some fabulous photos from a woman in San Francisco, just stunning photos of these supposedly masculine looking women who identified as butch. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything quite like that. It was raw and it was real and it was just beautiful. And somebody said to me that there was somebody in there that looks like your doppleganger and I thought wow she’s hot, that’s great,. So when I saw that you were doing it I thought well I really want to support that. It’s interesting when I came out you had to be one or the other, femme or butch. If you were femme you were quite marginalised and there was a lot of crap around women who did look “straight”. But I’ve always identified as a tomboy and there’s a continuum and I’m at the boyish end of it. Androgynous and tomboy and I’ve always been attracted to masculine women, not always sexually and physically. And then it makes me think what is masculine. And we’ve all got both and different shades and I thought you know it’s good for me to do this stuff, to have more of a self exploration I guess, yeh.

IRN: 867
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089646
TITLE: Mo - Butch on Butch
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Moana Parsons
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland Pride Festival; Buddhism; Butch on Butch (exhibition/series); Department of Corrections; Diversity Liaison Officers (police); Dunedin; Jac Lynch; Kaitaia; Out in the Park (Wellington); Out in the Square (Wellington); Out in the carPark (Wellington); Porirua; Pride; Pride parade (Auckland); Quakers; Reclaim the Night; Wellington; Whanganui; acceptance; accomodation; baby dyke; butch; clothing; coming out; community; dance; diversity; dyke; employment; feminism; flatting; friends; law; lesbian and gay balls; long distance relationship; parents; physical education; police; prisoners; protest; relationships; school; soccer; sport; stereotypes; study; support; transcript online; uniform; university; values; waka ama
DATE: 4 April 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Mo talks about growing up in Kaitaia, being a Diversity Liaison Officer with the New Zealand Police and marching for the first time in uniform at the Auckland Pride Parade.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 4 April 2015
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Mo: I was born in Whanganui and moved to Kaitaia when I was four and grew up in Kaitaia in the Far North. Jac: How long did you live in Kaitaia? Mo: Till I left home at the age of 18. Jac: What were some of your memories of living up in the Far North? Mo: The Far North is a beautiful place. I absolutely love it and going back to visit there but by the time I left I was ready to leave. It’s an interesting place because it’s quite a depressed area socially and a difficult place to kind of get ahead in life I guess and I knew that in order to make a life for myself that I needed to get out of there and leave there. So I’m happy to go back and visit and go to the beaches and all the beautiful places because it is absolutely stunning up there but it’s not a place that I want to live. Jac: Were you living rurally or in town? Mo: In town, in Kaitaia itself, right on the edge of town though. The house we were in looked out across the paddocks towards 90 Mile Beach so it’s sort of flat from our back fence you could see all the way out to the sanddunes. So you couldn’t see the sea but on quiet nights you could hear the surf from our place. Jac: Were you one of those kids that made the most of living by the beach? Mo: Yeh absolutely we spent heaps of time at the beach. My parents were into sailing so we spent lots of time on the water as well. A lot of my mates were out in the country so lots of horsey time and stuff like that. Jac: Horsey time? Mo: Horsey time (laughs) horse riding, motorbike riding, mucking about on farms. Jac: Whose in Kaitaia now in your family? Mo: My Mum, she lives in Awanui just out of Kaitaia up a long driveway miles from anywhere. Jac: You get to go back and see her a bit? Mo: I try to yeh but it’s easier for her to come down here to visit us with the kids and everything than for us to traipse everyone up there. Jac: How was school for you in terms of enjoying it, friends? Mo: Because Kaitaia is a small town and your schooling options are limited. I went to Kaitaia Primary and then Kaitaia Intermediate and then Kaitaia College and your whole peer group moves with you. So you might get a few people that come and go, drop in and out, but by and large the group that you start at kindy with is the group that you follow all the way through your schooling so by the time we got to college we had a pretty tight group of friends. From what I could see for most people you had your core group of eight to 10 people and then there were different groups within that. We had a really big third form year. There were three or 400 of us so you just formed your little cliques and those were the friends you then carried on with through secondary school. Jac: Were you an academic kid or a sporty kid? Mo: Sporty, yes, definitely sporty. I ended up in the top stream class by accident and for whatever reason the teachers decided that they might as well keep me there and see how I did. My name got mixed up with somebody else in the first week in third form. They brought the other girl back into the class and they left me there. Maybe they thought it would be really demoralising for me to swapped back. So I was in a class that was possibly slightly more academically higher than I was but actually what it did was make me work harder and I’m actually glad that I stayed in that class. My school reports used to say things like ‘Moana is easily distracted’ and ‘could try harder’ and all those sorts of things. School was really just for socialising rather than working. I managed to get through seventh form and in sixth form scrapped through just enough points to get UE but I really did the bare minimum to get through. I don’t think necessarily it’s because I couldn’t do it, I just wasn’t interested in studying so I was far more interested in playing sports and socialising with my mates. Jac: What sort of sports were you into? Mo: Soccer mostly, yeh, soccer. Waka Ama for a bit and then phys ed. You do lots of different things in phys ed, but soccer would be my main sport I didn’t play any summer sportsJac: When you left Kaitaia where did you head? Mo: I went to Auckland for a year first. When I left school I knew that I wanted to join the Police but I didn’t feel like I was ready to join. I was old enough but I didn’t feel that I was mature enough. I also wasn’t sure that I would get in and I felt that I needed a back up plan. So I went to Auckland for a year and worked, first in a sandwich bar on High Street which runs parallel to Queen Street right in the CBD and then in a screen printing company out in Mount Roskill and was a screen printing hand. They tried to get me to take up an apprenticeship but I knew that I didn’t want to be screenprinting for the rest of my life. What that year enabled me to do was work out what I wanted to do as my back up plan and so at the end of that year I quit my job and I moved to Dunedin and did a phys ed degree. Jac: How was it moving from Kaitaia to the cities? Mo: Auckland I hated, it was just too big, too noisy, too busy. I found it really hard to meet people and make friends. I was flatting with my sister and all her cohorts and I sort of became friends with them but they were always her friends and because I was always working out in Mount Roskill in a small screenprinting company it just wasn’t conducive to making friends and socialising so in some ways it was quite a lonely year because I didn’t have my own peer group but moving to Dunedin, I loved it. Jac: Were you out? Mo: Not until I moved to Dunedin. I came out to my parents at the beginning of the first year down there. Jac: Did that involve going back to Kaitaia? Mo: My mother, I came out to over the phone. When I was living in Auckland at the end of the year before I went to Dunedin I came out to my mother. My father, when I went to Dunedin I came out to him. Jac: What was their reaction? Mo: My Dad was really funny and I came out to him in a really weird way. I had a tshirt that said Dyke but it was written in the Nike style with the swoosh tick underneath it. He was out the back crushing beer cans, I put it on and went out there and I said to him ‘I need to tell you something really personal about myself’ and I just showed him the tshirt and he just went ‘Ah dyke(y) one of the guys at the squash club has got one of them and it says something else’ I can’t remember, and that’s the only conversation we’ve ever had about it, we’ve never talked about it since. I’m out to him and he’s met most of my girlfriends and there’s never been an issue or a question but it was a weird awkward moment (laughs). Yeh it was just that’s done, we don’t need to talk about that anymore. Jac: Has he always been supportive of you? Mo: Yeh absolutely, my parents have been Quakers when I was growing up. My Dad is Buddhist now. We were raised to be open-minded and they were very open-minded. One of the values of our family is acceptance of all people and that there is good in all people and you don’t judge people by their race, or religion or whatever. Jac: When you were growing up in Kaitaia did you know gay people? Mo: No I think I was the only gay in the village, oh, and my girlfriend at the time, she was obviously gay as well. Jac: You had a girlfriend at high school? Mo: So we were really good friends, best mates, and we met in third form. So she’d come over from one of the other schools and started at Kaitaia College. We started out as friends by default. I had a good friend and she had a good friend and our good friends became friends and we were left without friends. It was a really bizarre situation. Anyway we just hit it off and we were really good mates and over the years our friendship just got closer and closer and closer and it morphed into a relationship in our sixth form year. Jac: When you moved to Auckland did you keep the relationship going? Mo: Yes, she had gone to Dunedin and that was one of motivating factors to go to Dunedin so we had a long distance relationship that year I was in Auckland. But it didn’t last once I got down there. Jac: Did you stay friends? Mo: Yep we’re still friends. Jac: And your Mum about you being out? Mo: Yeh she’s fantastic. She just did what mothers do I guess you know ‘so long as you’re happy, it’s not going to be easy for you, I’ll always support you no matter what’. She wrote me a really lovely letter that I’ve still got but I was never concerned about how she might react or respond. It was my Dad that I wasn’t sure. I had absolutely no idea how he would react. Jac: What about other people? Your siblings? Mo: My sister, she said it’s never been an issue for her. Jac: They never had any idea before then? Mo: Oh that’s probably one of the reasons it wasn’t an issue. Because I think they all knew you know because we spent every minute together out of school and in school as well. It wouldn’t have surprised them at all. I don’t think they knew as such but it was more that I was just confirming it for them. Jac: So people at school weren’t giving you heaps about it? They weren’t seeing that you guys were together? Mo: No we didn’t think so but then again would people have questioned it, I don’t know? We thought we were pretty good at keeping it under the radar but whether we did or not I don’t know. I’ve never had any retrospective conversations with my peer group at school. I’m still Facebook friends with a few people from that time but we’ve all gone to different parts of the country and world as well so we don’t remain in close contact. Jac: Tell us about some of things that happened for you in Dunedin. Mo: Dunedin was great time, I loved it. So I spent four years down there. I was a baby dyke and I’d hang out in the women’s room at lunch time and go on Reclaim the Night marches and all of that stuff. I didn’t go into a hall of residence. I went straight into a flat and I was flatting with two other lesbians and then met lots of people through their social circle and we’d go to women’s dances and gay and lesbian balls. I just totally immersed myself in it because I hadn’t been able to come out when I was living in small town Kaitaia and didn’t really have a peer group in Auckland so I just threw myself in it boots and all, overalls and purple tshirts. Although I never had a pair of Docs. I never owned a pair of Doc boots. Jac: Just swapped them for Police boots. So that was the ‘90s? Mo: I was in Dunedin ’94 to ’97. Jac: After Dunedin what happened? Mo: I joined the Police and in the last year or so of my phys ed degree I started the application process for the Police. So I was recruited in Dunedin and I was accepted into the Police six months after I finished my phys ed degree. I stayed in Dunedin while I was waiting for a place in the Police. I guess I couch hopped around my friends' places. I didn’t know when I was going to get the call up and I was literally waiting just doing little odd jobs around the place. Then when I got the call up and came up to the Police College in Porirua I packed everything up into boxes, brought it up with me and put it all in storage. I had to find somewhere to live once I graduated. The recruiting officer had said to me ‘if you want to come back to the South Island you might as well not bother applying because there’s a four year waiting list’. So it was quite clear that I wasn’t going to get a position back in Dunedin. At that stage that would have been my preference to have stayed in Dunedin cos I loved living in Dunedin so then I had to think ‘well where do I want to live?’. I had heard that Wellington was quite a similar city to Dunedin in lots of ways just bigger and I knew that I didn’t want to go back to the Far North and I knew I didn’t want to go back to Auckland. So I said I’d work in Wellington so that’s why I had to wait a little bit longer, I had to wait for a vacancy to come up in Wellington. I got the call up and at that stage I didn’t know which station I’d be working at. I didn’t know until two weeks before I graduated. All my stuff was in storage, I had nowhere to live but I couldn’t look for a flat and I didn’t know where I was going to be stationed. I put my first preference down as Porirua. There were a couple of women who I played soccer with who worked there as Police Officers and they said that Porirua was a pretty good place to work so I put that down as my first preference and that’s the station that I got. Jac: Given that you were probably hanging out with quite a few feminist lesbians in Dunedin and they would’ve known about you wanting to apply for the Police, did anyone given you a hard time about that? Mo: Once at a lesbian party, get-together. There was one woman who bailed me up in the kitchen when she found out that I was joining the Police. She gave me a really hard time. It turned out that her Dad was in the Police and she said that it had changed him and that he was an asshole basically. In hindsight I think that was just about her relationship with her Dad. But she was worried that was going to happen to me. I think I have changed but I don’t think I’ve necessarily changed for the worse. I’m just a different person for my experiences in the job that I wouldn’t have had if I hadn’t joined the Police. Jac: On joining the Police were there any issues about your sexuality? Mo: It was interesting because when I joined I was living with my partner at the time and I put her name down on the application form and listed her as my partner. She had an obviously female name and the recruiting officer picked up on it and during the initial interview he said to me ‘ah, I see that you’ve listed your partner as a female’. It hadn’t even occurred to me that might be an issue in my own naivety because I’d been living in a little queer bubble. I just said ‘ah, is there a problem with that?’. And he said ‘well you know there’s some people that join and we just need to make sure that people who apply are joining for the right reason, that you’re not just pushing your own band wagon’. Yeh, and that floored me. I just said ‘look I knew that I wanted to join the Police before I knew that I was gay. Being gay is just part of who I am, I can assure you that I want to join the job because I want to be a Police officer’. He said ‘ok, ok’ and then about a minute later he said ‘look I just need to check that you’re joining for the right reasons because women when they join they have a habit of joining up and they’re on the job for about a year and then they get pregnant and they leave’. This is the recruiting officer. I don’t know where his head was at. Interestingly enough a few years ago I was on a course at the Police College with a woman with the same surname as him and she was from down that way and I asked her if she was related and she said that he was her father. Looking at her length of service I worked out that she would have been joining around about the same time as me and I wonder if all those questions were about him, his issues with his own daughter joining up. That’s just me making up a story that that’s what it was about. It seems quite coincidental. But yeh he was really just old school. Jac: Have you been a Diversity Liaison Officer? You’ve seen those positions come through in the Police? Mo: I’m a Diversity Liaison Officer and I have been since 2004. Eleven years this year. I went through in the first Diversity Liaison Officer qualifying course, in the inaugural course. So it’s a voluntary portfolio role. The Diversity Liaison Officers are a conduit between the GLBTI community and the Police, that’s one strong to our bow. The other side of the role is more internally focussed around changing culture in the organisation, supporting staff, supporting GLBTI staff and also being a liaison between staff who are investigating crime and the GLBTI community so it kind of goes both ways in that respect as well. We’ve got contacts and networks a lot of staff don’t have, so that’s how that role, I’m still a DLO. Jac: This year was pretty interesting for the Police in taking part in the Pride marches in Wellington and Auckland, can you talk about your role in that? Mo: So I went up to Auckland. I’m currently working at the Police College as a Tactical Operations Supervisor in the gym. My staff and I do a lot of the graduation ceremonies and provide a colour party which is carrying the flag basically. You have one person carrying the flag, three people, one person carrying the flag and two escorts, and a colour commander who tells the other three what to do. So when we were given the go ahead to march in the parade. I contacted the organisers, some of who were DLOs and some who weren’t, and just said ‘hey look, we’d like to provide a colour party’ to go with the parade. If we’re going to do it properly let’s do it properly. If we’re going to march let’s have the colours up there. Then I sought support from my supervisor and he put it through the commandant at the college, so the superintendent who’s the national manager training and he endorsed it. He absolutely thought it was the right thing to do. Gave us the go ahead and yeh, we took the colours up and marched in the parade with everyone else. Jac: What was the significance for you in the Police taking part in the parade? Mo: For me personally it was an opportunity to push my own bandwagon (laughs). I’ve never forgotten those comments from that recruiting officer and to a certain degree it did feel a little bit like that, perhaps two fingers up to him. I can be a Police Officer, and be out and support the queer community from within the Police as well, and that’s something that I’ve been doing as a DLO for 10 years. It just really felt like it was a really big step in the right direction for the organisation as far as recognising and supporting our GLBTI staff. To me it wasn’t even about the Police and our work with the community, it was actually more about how the Police support our own staff and recognition and breaking down of stereotypes and any of that workplace stuff that may or may not have been going on in the past. So it was a really big step. We were given the go ahead to march in uniform but we were not given permission to do it in work time. It was basically get yourself up there. The Police didn’t pay for any transport or accommodation and it was it in your own time and there were some GLBTI staff who didn’t march because they didn’t agree with that stance. But my thoughts on it was ‘well it’s a step int eh right direction, you can’t expect massive change overnight’. Last year we marched but we didn’t march in uniform. This year we marched in uniform. Maybe next year or the following year the Police will say ‘OK, we recognise that this is needed and important for our GLBTI staff’. Jac: This was a bit of controversy this year in Auckland anyway around it eh? You weren’t involved in that? Mo: I wasn’t involved but it happened right in front of me. What you’re talking about is the protest action. There was a group of three protesters who were actually protesting the conditions of trans* prisoners. Everybody has the right to protest. The rules of the parade are if you’re being disruptive and getting in front of the people marching then you are going to be removed. We were given clear instructions before the march because there’s always the possibility of protest. One of the reasons why the year before the commissioner had said ‘I don’t want you marching in uniform’, he was concerned if something like that happened and we were in uniform we’d be expected to act and it would all just get messy and untidy. So our directions were, ‘you are here to march, there are operational Police staff working with the parade who will deal with any of that, focus on the march and just march’ and that’s exactly what we did. So the protesters attempted to disrupt us and the security guards removed them and managed to keep them out of the way. I was really proud of the way the Police staff literally just kept their focus, stayed in step and kept marching. Actually that showed huge professionalism because every one of us in uniform there would have been wanting to step out of line and deal with it because that’s what we do, that’s what we are employed to do. To not step out of line and do anything about it was really difficult so yeh, I was really proud of the way that we reacted to that and yep, OK, just trust that security and operational staff that are working they’ll deal with that. Unfortunately, the woman who was protesting was injured and there was a lot of flow on and comment about that afterwards. Jac: So that was at the Auckland Pride, and then you were taking part in the Wellington Out in the CarPark parade as well? Mo: We would have liked to have walked as DLOs in the parade but we didn’t have enough staff and it was just really about timing. For the original date we had a group that were going to be walking in the parade but we just didn’t have the staff there on that particular day to be able to so I felt that we were better served to assist the parade to move along in a policing role rather than to be walking in it. So we were there for the parade and the DLOs always have a stall at Out in the Park so that’s what we did again this year. Jac: So you’ve had a big birthday this year? Mo: So have you! It was last year. Jac: Time flies. So now you’ve entered the forties, what’s that mean for you? Mo: It’s interesting turning 40. A lot of people said ‘oh when you turn 40 things you know a lot of things change and fall into place’ and I didn’t think that would be the case but actually yes, I feel more comfortable in my own skin and actually less concerned about what other people think, and more concerned about making life the way I want it to be. Jac: You live in a small village outside of Wellington, and that’s got a lot of your friends living here. How does that feel for you living in this sort of community? Mo: I love it, I had never envisaged living here. Yeh, it just kind of happened and I’ve got no regrets whatsoever. So we’ve been living here coming up three years this year, and have just bought the house we’ve been renting so I guess we’re permanent villagers now. What I love about this village is it’s just a little green bubble in lots of ways and it works. It’s a community and I don’t think I’ve ever lived in a place that has such a close community feeling to it. You’re half an hour out of Wellington but you don’t feel like you are, you could be semirural. Jac: How was it for you being part of the Butch on Butch photo exhibition and why did you decide to be part of it? Mo: I just think ‘yeh well that’s me’ and I wanted to support you in your venture. It was interesting in the question of photos I thought a lot about if I should do it in my uniform and in the end I decided that actually that’s just one part of me and there’s lots of other parts to me. I would have had to ask for permission from my supervisors in order to do that because it was a public exhibition and I just didn’t want to explain it and have to justify it. Maybe if you do another one we could and I’d be braver next time but I think the way that we did it was absolutely fine. If I had had my motorbike we probably would have done something with my bike. We took the photo at soccer which was great because that’s my other passion and I was filthy and muddy and knackered and it was just like, yeh, this is me on a Sunday and that was nice.

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TITLE: Tasha - Butch on Butch
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VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 1080 poison; 2000 Summer Olympic Games (Sydney); 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asia / Oceania Powerlifting Championships; Butch on Butch (exhibition/series); Christchurch; Commonwealth Games; Dunedin; Jac Lynch; Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI); Olympic Games; Palmerston North; Powerhouse Gym (Wellington); Wellington; World Powerlifting Championship; athletics; butch; cycling; drug testing; fitness; friends; gym; hammer throw (athletics); identity; in the zone; pets; powerlifting; reading; rugby; sci-fi; sponsorship; sport; surfing; touch rugby; transcript online; travel; veterinarian; weight lifting; women
DATE: 22 March 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 22 March 2015
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Jac: Tash, nine weeks today I understand you’re off to the World Champs. Can you tell us what that’s about? Tasha: That’s the World Powerlifting Champs and this will be my first world champs for powerlifting. Super excited about it. Currently ranked fifth so I’m hoping to bring home some silverware. Jac: Fantastic. And you’ve brought home silverware before? Tasha: From the Oceania champs at the end of last year. Yeh I bought home the Gold in all three lifts and the Total. Jac: What did the lifts involve? Tasha: So powerlifting is squat, benchpress and deadlift. Jac: What weights were you lifting? Tasha: For the squat I did 170 kilos, benchpress is 97. 5 kilos and deadlift is 195 kilos. Jac: Had you lifted those before? Tasha: Not in squat and press, I had actually done a 200 in deadliest in training not in competition. Jac: Far out, that’s like over a couple of people really isn’t it? Tasha: Yeh 462. 5 kilo total but I’m gunning for the 500 kilo total. You know, like nice round numbers. Jac: So what does your training involve? Tasha: Currently it’s six days a week. Most sessions are about two hours though the odd session will go for around three, three and a half hours, and yeh basically doing three lifts, squat, bench, dead most sessions. Jac: You work full-time eh? Tasha: Yeh, fulltime work plus the girls in my two four-leggeds, the dogs. And yeh that takes up all my time. There’s not alot of downtime for me. Jac: So I’m in your lounge and I can see on your wall a poster from the Official Sydney 2000 Olympic Games and it’s the opening ceremony, 15 September 2000 and it’s got lots of signatures all over it. Are you somewhere in that picture? Tasha: I sure am. I was part of the New Zealand Athletics team. That was an absolutely amazing experience back in what I call my heyday. I was a hammer thrower and got to the Olympics, and to the Commonwealth Games as well as the World Champs. Jac: Were you involved in that kind of sport at school? Tasha: No, I was a sprinter at school. One hundred metre sprinter plus I played touch rugby, rugby at the local club, in the cycling team, played basketball and did athletics. Jac: And when did you move into the hammer throw? Tasha: I was at varsity when I met my sprint coach and he turned me into a hammer thrower. He said you’re never going to be an international sprinter, you’ve got to be a freak to be an international sprinter but he said no, you’d make a good thrower. Pick technique up really quickly and got strong really quickly as well so he bought a book and we bought a hammer and we learned it together and went from there. Jac: Wow and then you end up in the Olympics. Tasha: I held the New Zealand record for many years. It was only broken just about two years ago. Jac: That’s awesome. When did you start doing lifting? Tasha: I always did weightlifting as part of my training for hammer throw. When I retired from hammer I got back into rugby for three years then through the rugby, I was playing for Canterbury, we got back into the gym and a guy at the gym was a weight lifter I used to train with and I just got into weightlifting. Did a few years weightlifting and got a couple of Oceanias. And then moving to Wellington the gym was more into powerlifting and then, you know, got hooked into powerlifting. I found powerlifting is actually better on my body than weightlifting. Weightlifting is a lot harder on the joints. Now I’m getting a bit older powerlifting is a lot easier. Jac: How old are you now? Tasha: I’ll be 42 this year. Jac: Ancient in sports terms (laughs). Tasha: (Laughs) Yeh still beating the young girls though. Jac: I’ll bet. You’re from Christchurch, is that right? Tasha: Yeh one-eyed Cantabrian. Born in Dunedin, most of life in Christchurch, studied in Palmerston North and now four years in Wellington. Jac: What do you do for work? Tasha: I work for the Ministry for Primary Industries. I am actually a qualified vet but because I went from graduating to fulltime athlete when it was finally time to use my degree the best job available was with the government. I really enjoy the work, a lot of variety. I started off as a vet at the freezing works, now I’m in head office and been introduced to the dairy industry and people like Fonterra and those big players. Jac: What do you do? Tasha: Work in the food assurance team, mainly deal with non-conforming product and exceptions. Export non-conformances, so when they have issues overseas, and I give various exemptions as well for product to allow them to export it. Yeh get involved with things like this current 1080 deal, WPC and other big issues, it can be quite challenging and full-on. Jac: So it’s probably quite nice to be able to go down to the gym and do a bit of lifting. Tasha: Yeh turn off from work. Jac: So when you’re at the gym is it just yourself or have you got training partners? Tasha: Well I train at the Powerhouse Gym on Taranaki Street in Wellington. It’s not your normal Joe Bloggs gym, there’s one mirror, there’s no instructors, it’s all lifters, and basically you get a few athletes. And for me it’s my family and it’s just a really great bunch of people and no matter who’s there on the day you’ve got people to train with and people to help so you know you’re training with anyone in particular but it’s just a great group of people. Recently we’ve got quite a few girls lifting and we’ve semi started a strong girls club. So we always try to get together as much as we can, train together on a Saturday and let everyone know what everyone’s doing. We’ve got a girl in Christchurch and up in Palmerston North who are semi part of the club but it’s just a great supportive little network as well. Jac: Is that to try to support more women into the sport or to try to support the women who are in it? Tasha: Bit of both. A couple of us just started training together and invited a few others to train together and a few other girls came back to the sport and we've had some other girls at comps that we’ve sort of taken under our wing so it’s a bit of both. Jac: Under your wing, in a kind of mentoring way? Tasha: Yeh more mentoring. I’ve got a lot of experience in training, in competition. Not just how to train but also mentally how you tackle things on competition day, and how you warm up. That kind of stuff. Jac: Right. That’s just in a really supportive role. Tasha: Yeh it’s great. I mean there are more and more women getting into the sport as well. They’re all really green so you just help to get them back on track. I don’t have time to coach but I’m always happy to help out in another way. Check their technique and help them I like I said, mentally. Jac: How have you found yourself being regarded in that sport over the years, in powerlifting and so on? Tasha: I’ve just always been another athlete. I mean that’s the great thing about sport, you know, guys, girls, whether you’re gay, straight, or what, you’re just another athlete and I’ve never been judged. You know I think my success has helped as well. You know you get respected for what you’ve done and what you do. Jac: How many years do you think you’ve got left in the powerlifting world? Tasha: Many many years. There’s a lot of masters out there still doing well and when I’m competing in the opens. But after opens I can always get into masters lifting as well. We’ve got a girl in our gym, she’s well in her 50s now and lifting phenomenal weights and still training hard. It’s one of the sports you can keep going for quite some time. My biggest thing is just keeping my body in one piece. Jac: How do you manage that? Tasha: I got to a chiropractor and massager once a week and I couldn’t get through without that. I try to stretch where I can. A lot of it is about getting your technique right as well. I’ve done a lot of work on that lately because I’ve had a pretty crap lifting technique in the past. But getting that right and training, training smart. It’s not just about going to the gym and smashing it, it’s about being smart and listening to your body and eating properly. Jac: And what does that mean? Tasha: For me, eating a lot of protein. It’s not a sport that burns a lot of fat. I’m in a weight class where I’ve been lucky, I’ve been trying to put on a lot of weight to get up to the top weight class. I lift in the 84s but I still watch my carbohydrate intake, at night I generally don’t eat any carbs so lots of veggies, protein, plenty of protein shakes, very clean supplements, yeh, very careful about what I take. I get drug tested all the time. With weight lifting I was probably tested two or three times a year. Not so much in powerlifting yet but I’m sure it will come. Jac: That’s pee in the bottle stuff is it? Tasha: Pee in the bottle with your shirt up and your pants down to your knees so they can see everything so they make sure that you’re not cheating, you’re not using tubes or anything, yeh because of what people have done in the past to cheat. So yeh you can’t be shy when you’re an athlete. Jac: That’s quite intrusive really. Tasha: You get used to it. When it happens two, three, four times a year you get to know the drug tester. Jac: And they get to know you. Tasha: Pretty much, when I walk up the path and they’re waiting for me it’s like ‘ah, hi, it’s you’ (laughs). Jac: Alongside the weightlifting do you have other hobbies? I know you don’t have a lot of time but you’ve got your dogs. Tasha: I used to enjoy surfing but I haven’t been out in the last few years because I’ve just focussed on training. But I love reading, I read a lot of books. I’m churning through book a week at the moment and yeh I don’t have time for anything else. Jac: What sort of books are you into? Tasha: I read everything and anything, lately I’ve been into a real fantasy buzz so I’ve been reading a lot of Robin Hobb books and Brandon Sanderson but anything I can get my hands on. Jac: It must cost quite a bit to do the champs and so on, how do you fund being involved in those competitions? Tasha: It’s all self funded. For this trip, work has given me some money and I’ll get a bit of money out of the federation but I mean I’m lucky, you know, I mean not having any kids or other people sucking my money yeh and I’ve got a decent job and yeh, it’s all self-funded. Jac: So you don’t get a sponsorship? Tasha: It’s pretty hard to get a sponsorship in these sort of sports and especially if you’re not the ideal image, you know, like the pretty bimbos that they like to portray. And it’s hard work too looking for it, I just don’t have time. As I said I’m lucky I’m financially stable enough I can support myself. Jac: That must be a relief to you rather than trying to chase around the money. I guess a lot of people must just not do it. Tasha: They struggle and they rely on parents as well. I guess I just live on my visa and constantly pay it off. Jac: So the look that you have on stage if it’s not the bimbo look, what’s your look? Tasha: Well it’s not really a look I’ve created. I mean I’m just me. What you see is what you get and if you met me in person I’m really shy and quiet but if you see me in the competition in the arena I’m totally the opposite. I totally psych myself up for comps and make a lot of noise and get into the zone. I don’t care what other people think. I’m there to lift. Jac: What do you do to get into the zone? Tasha: I make a lot of noise, I’ll yell, I’ll dark myself up, I’ll get people to slap my legs and just like I said, make a lot of noise. And then if I’m up for a really big lift I’ll get the crowd in behind it as well and try to get them to make noise. They said they love it, and they respond to it, and it’s really good. I get a lot of support. I’ve had people say they love watching me lift because of how much I get into it. Jac: Why do people slap your legs? Tasha: I find it hurts but it stimulates your legs but it draws the blood out you know where you want it and it takes your mind off everything else, it totally focusses you. Jac: Can you give us an example of your noises? I’m not going to slap your legs (laughs). Tasha: Nah, that’ll start the dogs barking or they’ll run. Jac: I’m only kidding. Tasha: You’ll have to watch one of the live feeds from one of the comps, you’ll see it. Jac: When’s that happening? Tasha: Most comps they’re live feeds. I’m not sure what sites they are on, there are definitely ones for World Champs. There was one for Oceanias. A whole lot of athletes here set up at the gym to watch the Oceanias. Jac: Are we talking about May? Tasha: June, I think I’m lifting on the 14th of June but that’ll be Europe as well so that’ll be the 15th here. Jac: Where are they? Tasha: In Finland this year. Jac: So that’s not cheap. Tasha: No, not cheap. Plus I want to go two weeks before to acclimatise but I’ve been lucky there’s a girl that came out from Sweden to play rugby and I’ll stay with her in Gottenberg and do a week and a half of training then head over to Finland for the comp and then go travelling for two weeks afterwards. Jac: Where are you going to go? Tasha: I’ve got to go to St Petersburg. If you’re that close you’ve got to do it, St Petersburg, Helsinki, I want to go up to Stockholm, flying out of Copenhagen. I’m travelling on my own so just hit the big cities and stay safe. Jac: Stay safe? What’s that mean? Tasha: Well yeh I love travelling but travelling on your own you’ve just got to be that little bit more careful. Jac: You must have done a lot of travelling with the competitions? Tasha: Yeh I’ve been very lucky I’ve done a lot. In athletics days I was back and forth to Australia about four or five times a year, plus I played Sevens in Hong Kong, I did bobsled for one season as well so that took me to the States, Canada, Germany, Italy. Through athletics, I’ve been to Manchester. KL, Hungary, Croatia, States again as part of a build up. Did some travelling with my father, went down to South America, and then for my 40th I went with my parents, down to the States once again and went down to Cuba and Mexico. So like I said I love travelling. Sports just open the door for that. Jac: Are you pretty close to your parents? Tasha: Yeh my family’s been really good, really supportive. I’ve got another two sisters and a brother who lives in the States. I wouldn’t say hugely close but when we get together we’re a great family, we have a lot of fun. Jac: How supportive are they of you getting into the sports? From the hammer throwing through to the weightlifting? Tasha: They’ve always been supportive. They came to KL and watched that. Dad came over to Sydney for the Olympics. Mum would come down to the odd weightlifting comp. They’d totally not a sporty person but they’d come and watch the odd rugby game. The first rugby game she came and watched I was still at high school and she always said ‘you be careful, you’ll hurt yourself for your athletics’ and someone head high tackled me and completely rooted my shoulder and of course it was the one game my parents were watching but no, they’ve been really supportive of my sport. Though my mother was pretty super happy when I finally started using my vet degree. Jac: Get you off the field. Tasha: Yeh they did support me through varsity and the only one in the family who studied and then I graduated as a vet and then I became an athlete and she was pretty rapt when I got a decent job and started using my degree. Jac: So you were involved in the Butch on Butch exhibition and the portrait was of you at the gym lifting weights. Have you had feedback from friends about you being in that exhibition? Tasha: No I haven’t actually (laughs). Jac: None at all? That’s fantastic, that’s like no surprises. Tasha: My friends are all supportive and they know what I do anyway and they know that half the time I’ll say no to things because of my training but I’ve got a great bunch of friends. Jac: How do your friends support you with what you’re doing now? Tasha: I had a couple of friends come up and help me load some wood up the steps today. If I ever need anything they are always there, invite me around for dinner there’s never any pressure to go to anything. Jac: There must be a no drinking rule in your life. Tasha: Just sort of self-inflicted. Gone are the years of those big drinking days. I’ve just sort of grown out of drinking anyway. It just doesn’t bother me and I’d rather feel good in the morning. They are used to me going out being the sober one drinking water. Jac: People slapping your legs. Tasha: Save that for comps eh? Jac: Thanks very much Tash. Is there anything you want to add? Tasha: I don’t know if you want to go into that whole butch thing. I definitely fall into society’s definition of being butch. But me, I’m just myself, I’ve never defined myself as being anything, it’s just me in my own unique special way.

IRN: 854
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ATL REF: OHDL-004336
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089630
TITLE: Zoe - Butch on Butch
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VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Australia; Brisbane; Butch on Butch (exhibition/series); Christchurch; Clyde Quay School; IDEA Services (IHC); Ivy Bar and Cabaret; Jac Lynch; Lower Hutt; New Zealand Army; New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF); Russia; Saint Petersburg; Special Needs Unit; Vinegar Hill / Putai Ngahere Domain; Wellington; Wellington East Girls' College; Wellington High School; acceptance; basketball; bouncer; bowls; bucket list; building; bullying; bungy jumping; butch; clothing; employment; friends; gender; gender identity; hospitality; identity; military; overseas experience (OE); parents; pay it forward; pets; relationships; rugby; siblings; single sex schools; snowboarding; sport; sumo wrestling; support; tomboy; transcript online
DATE: 15 March 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 15 March 2015
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Zoe: I grew up in Lower Hutt until the age of about 10 and then my Mum decided she was gay and wanted to live the nightlife so we moved to Wellington. Jac: And you’ve lived in Australia too? Zoe: Yeh I’ve lived in Australia off and on over the years just when I get bored. I’m a bit of a gypsy so I like to move around and keep things interesting. I kind of live life out of a bag. Even when I’m in New Zealand I change location every couple of months. Jac: Where did you go to school in Wellington? Zoe: I went to Clyde Quay for intermediate and part of primary school and then I went to Wellington East for a year which definitely didn’t suit me so moved to High and yeh definitely enjoyed that. Jac: What was the difference for you between Wellington East and High? Zoe: Well, after coming out of Clyde Quay which is such an open and diverse school, into quite a strict school as East is with girls and their attitude, I just didn’t enjoy it. It wasn’t where I needed to be and it held me back so at Wellington High it was more open and more likeminded people I suppose so everyone was kind of on the same level as where I was at. Jac: You were involved in the Butch on Butch Photo Exhibition. As a child, did you identify or were you seen as a tomboy? Zoe: As a kid I was definitely a tomboy, from the age of two my Mum knew where I was going to end up. My Mum used to let me wear boy clothes right down to undies. Even as a kid I wanted boys undies, boys shorts, boys shoes, boys socks, no frilly things. But my Dad didn’t really let me so it used to upset me quite a lot not having a say in my clothing. Even as young as five I can remember feeling upset and just not right when I was in girls clothes so yeh being a tomboy I guess when you get older it just gets labelled as butch. You stop being a tomboy when you start being an adult I think. Jac: Was that part of the reason you didn’t like Wellington East so much? Zoe: Yeh mufti days were interesting. I got abused by a few teachers for, you know, entering a girls school. Jac: They didn’t recognise you? Zoe: No, no, they thought I was a boy so I got verbally abused by a few teachers and questioned. And the girls, they didn’t feel comfortable with it and, you know, it just wasn’t a nice situation I don’t think. Jac: Going to High, that meant for you, you could wear what you wanted? Zoe: Yep definitely, I wore skate shoes, Dickie’s shorts, t-shirts and skate hats everyday, and no one ever questioned it. No one ever questioned me. No one ever bullied me. No one ever thought twice, everyone was just comfortable with what they were wearing. And I didn’t hang out with a specific group that meant I had to wear their specific clothing. Every day was different whether I was hanging out with the girly girls or the jocks, the nerds, you're confined to those groups, or society does, stereotypes. It was cool we all just wore what we wanted to wear and hung out with whoever we wanted to hang out with. Every group had the different characters and it was a lot more open and accepting. Jac: Obviously you had a better time at school, but did that mean you could be a bit more relaxed about your studies or what you got involved with? Zoe: Yep definitely. When I went to East I played bowls because it was the only sport no one else was doing. I love it anyway, it’s a great sport. Jac: Is that outdoor bowls? Zoe: Yeh outdoor bowls, lawn bowls. Yeh, the old guys love me down there at Mount Vic Bowling Club. At High I got into all my sports like rugby and basketball because I was more accepted so yeh definitely. At East I kind of avoided changing rooms as well because I was just uncomfortable really. It wasn’t nice. Jac: Were you out then? Zoe: Well, no, that’s the thing. Everyone knew I was gay, I knew I was gay but I never said it. It was never a said thing, it was just more, I don’t know, I was happy with myself so everyone was happy with me and it wasn’t talked about. Jac: Do you have brothers and sisters? Zoe: I have three half-brothers. My Mum doesn’t have any other kids but my Dad has the three half-brothers. The oldest is six years younger than me, the second one is nine years younger and the next one is 11 years younger. They’re quite young but yeh they’re good kids. Jac: How old are you? Zoe: Twenty-four this year. I’m 23, so the next one is 17, 14 and 12. Jac: So did you grow up a bit with them? Zoe: They were my Dad and my Stepmum. It used to be every second weekend I’d be at their’s and every other weekend I’d be at Nana’s so Mum could party the night away. Which was cool, you know, see family and that. So I grew up with my Mum and then every second weekend I was with my Dad and my brothers and yeh they loved me. I was their oldest sister, I was cool and I was a skater so yeh they weren’t fazed by me. My cousins used to call me a boy, every time I saw them which was every couple of months, it wasn’t like we went years without seeing it each other, they just thought I was a boy, and that was a bit different. Jac: And that’s how they treated you? As a boy? Zoe: Yep. Jac: Did that bother you at all” Zoe: No, not at all. I just used to laugh. It happened everywhere, everywhere I went. My own family doing it, it didn’t surprise me. Jac: Once you moved to High there was no bullying. Had there been bullying for you earlier? Zoe: Yeh but I’m not the kind of person to take notice. My friends notice when I get bullied but because I don’t take notice of negative things around me at all. I just brush it off. It goes in one ear and out the other and I go on with my merry way so I never noticed it. But yeh there was bullying yeh but I just left them to it. I used to hang out at what was called the SNU unit quite a bit, with the special needs kids and have lunch with them and just put yourself in positive situations instead of dealing with girls and their judgement. You just find a better way to go about your day yeh. Jac: When you left school what did you do? Zoe: I was a builder my whole way through school. So from 14 onwards I used to skip class and build houses down the road. At 16 I built a recording studio across the road from Wellington High. Jac: Who was employing you? Zoe: My Dad. Dad was ok with me not going to school if I was working. I passed, I passed every test so I wasn’t behind. C’s get degrees. My teachers let me know when I had to be there for a test or anything like that. And woodwork I’d obviously turn up one day a month and get everything done. I knew where I wanted to be. At that stage I wanted to join the Army so I passed everything I needed to pass which got me into the Army. And then I excelled and got Level 2 as well so yeh I was pretty happy with that. Jac: You got into the Army? How long were you in the Army for? Zoe: Ah, well (laughs), I didn’t actually go in. So I passed and I passed the men’s 100 fitness club. I don’t know if any other girl had passed it before. I did exceptionally well at the fitness and the test for it. For orientation day I didn’t go because my girlfriend at the time said if I joined the Army for three months’ basic training she wouldn’t be there when I got out, so that’s something I probably should have done but oh well. Jac: But you didn’t because of your girlfriend saying that? Zoe: Yeh. Jac: Have you ever regretted that? Zoe: Yes and no. It gave me opportunities and you know I took other career paths that I wouldn’t have chosen so yeh it was different. Jac: What did you end up doing? Zoe: Security. A lot of security, which got me quite far. I did it for about four years. I went from Armourguard to The Hobbit. I was a night security supervisor on The Hobbit. That was pretty intense. One hundred and five hours a week. I don’t know if that’s legal or not. That was a test. And working with Idea Services as well, IHC. That was amazing as well. That was more tiring than any building job, that was mentally draining but amazing. Jac: How long were you with IHC? Zoe: About a year when I was 18. Jac: As a support worker? Zoe: Yeh as a support worker, in-house, respite, programmes and stuff. Jac: What did you enjoy about that? Zoe: Just the appreciation. These kids don’t have anything really like some of them struggle to breathe every breath and they’re just so happy all the time. They can’t feed themselves, they can’t wipe themselves yet they’re the happiest people you’ll ever meet. Jac: What drew you to that work? Zoe: Well I’d always done it at school. If I was at school, even at Wellington High, I’d skip classes to take them to class. You know they’d not go to class unless Zoe took them. I’d always done it and it had always been on my mind to do it so I needed a job and yeh I walked in one day and the ladies loved me and gave me a job. Jac: What else have you been doing? Zoe: I think I’m a gypsy in the career department just as much as the houses, so I’ve done lots. When I lived in Australia I got my forklift ticket and my warehouse cert three so I did a bit of that. I’ve done a bit of concerts and things like that. I’ve enjoyed doing work behind the bars, I don’t know, lots of stuff, different things but mostly building. Jac: Are you doing labouring now, or building? Zoe: Building. I’m unqualified now but I’m a builder. Jac: When I came to take the photo of you for this project you were on-site then eh? Can you describe what you were wearing that day? Zoe: My tool belt, t-shirt, steelcap boots and my cargo pants. That outfit changes between stubbies and cargo pants depending on the weather. That’s about all that changes. Jac: You’ve got some great tattoos. Can you tell us a bit about those? Zoe: Yeh they’re a few my mother’s probably not happy about. Jac: Let’s start with those. Zoe: Well my latest one is a burger on my left elbow, Ekin Burgers on Cuba Street. Best burgers of my life. I had them once. Enjoyed them so much that I got their logo on my elbow. Jac: You’re a walking advert for them. Do they know that? Zoe: Yeh they give me free burgers or cheap burgers sometimes so that’s good. The other one would probably be my dog’s name. I like it, it means a lot to me, Bailey. And then my lovely dinosaur on my right leg that I did myself after let’s just say close to a bottle of gin so that’s always a good one. Jac: You did it yourself? What were you using? Zoe: A gun, a tattoo gun, tattoo machine sorry. Upside down. Jac: Who belonged to the tattoo machine? That’s not yours? Zoe: No, I do have a machine but no that wasn’t mine. That was a friend’s who was tattooing another firmed at a house and I got a bit intoxicated and asked if I could cross something off the bucket list. It was on the bucket list, it was completely legit. She liked it so much she actually I asked me to do it on her leg after. So it’s on and it just says ‘roar’ as well so yeh. It’s a T-rex cos it’s got little arms and Mum says it looks like a beaver. Jac: Yeh it does a bit. It’s like a cross between a T-rex and a beaver. What else is on the bucket list? Zoe: Oh it’s a novel. It’s an absolute novel. There’s probably about 300 things on it. Jac: Go on then. Zoe: Festivals, all the festivals you could think of. The Seven Wonders of the World obviously. Travel Asia on a motorbike. Pat a tiger. Swim with sharks, I’ve done that actually. Lots of things. Skydive. Everything you could ever imagine would be on a bucket list is on my bucket list. And also things like paying for the person behind me and do kind deeds and things like that. Jac: Pay it forward type thing? Zoe: Yeh pay it forward which I do as much as I can. I just chuck it in my bucket list as a friendly reminder to do it more. Jac: Have you got anything on your bucket list coming up soon? Zoe: Snowboarding. I’ve been crossing that off. I took that up after Caroline. I took that up, I’ve been doing that. Wake boarding, I’ll probably cross that off soon, and skydiving. I’m moving to Christchurch so I’ll be skydiving over Wanaka and that. Jac: Awesome. So just because people won’t know when you referred to Caroline can you just briefly say what you mean there. Zoe: Caroline was what I consider one of my aunties. So growing up, the gay community in Wellington, cos I was so young everyone was a big influence on me and I consider them all aunties. Like Nic and Erena and Caroline and Debs and Pricey and Jody. The list goes on. Caroline was a big influence. She used to take me surfing. She was always just so positive and so happy and I didn’t get to spend much time with her. A little bit at Vinegar Hill and if I popped into her house but not a lot time, I regret that. She died in 2013 I think on Mount Ruapehu looking for a board. And I always wanted to board but I don’t know I think the fear kind of got to me but after that I just thought bugger it I’ll just do it for her. She’d be happy, she’d be stoked that I was doing it. Yeh I’m nervous every time I’m up there, every chair lift I’m scared, but it’s good, it’s good fun. Jac: It’s kind of like you’re into extreme sports in a way. Is that right? Zoe: No, no, I’m just stupid (laughs). No, if I’m scared of something I like to do it. If I’m scared of spiders I’ll try to pick one up or If I’m scared of snowboarding I’ll do it. Because you shouldn’t let things stop you. You should at least try, I say that but there are some things I’m not going to try, but you should try everything once especially things that you’re scared of like heights and things. Jac: So it’s about the challenge? Zoe: Oh yeh it’s about pushing yourself, cos when you do it, it’s better than any feeling in the world. You know you just become, it’s like a drug you know. I didn't think I could do that, I didn’t think I could jump off that ledge you know. I did bungy jumping and I stood up there for 30 minutes convincing myself that I couldn’t do it and then I did it and I just wanted to keep doing it. I love that feeling. Not the adrenalin. I’m not an adrenalin junkie, I’m just stupid (laughs). Jac: How much do you see your Mum? Zoe: Not as much as she’d like. We have a good friendship I suppose, I don’t know, I don’t see her too much. She doesn’t like that. Jac: She’s in Australia? Zoe: Yep, she’s in Brisbane so I stayed with her a little bit. So I quit my job and stayed with her for a couple of weeks before I flew back. So she does get to see me yeh but probably not as much as she’d like. She voices that quite a bit. Jac: Do you socialise much in the queer communities? Zoe: Well everyone knows who I am. But most of the people I hang out with aren’t queer but in saying that I go along to events that mean something and you know and try and show my support and that and I was the bouncer at Ivy’s and I got to know a lot of people. I’m fortunate enough to know because of Mum and because of me being out so young I know every age group of the queer community right through and I’m talking from 17 right through to 60. I know all of those groups because they’re kind of grouped off in five year sections or 10 year sections. Jac: So the people you hang around with now are they old school friends? Zoe: Just like my locations, with my friends I jump around. I hang around with all of Mum’s old mates. I like to hang out with them. Like Rhianna and Pricey as well as Nicky and Debs and that. I also like my mates, some of them are from school, some of them are from the queer community as well. Yeh I suppose, yeh I suppose actually, everyone. I get so bored. I like variety, I don’t like one thing. Everyone’s got different views on things and I like that, I like to be challenged and I like to learn new things and I feel like if you just have one group of friends you just talk about the same things every week. It just drives me bonkers. Yeh I hang out with lots of people. Jac: When we took your photo you were hanging out with one of your old mates eh? Zoe: Sam’s a good bloke yeh he’s a cutey. Me and him have pirate life. So we go kayaking on the water, take blow up dinghies on the water, things like that. Jac: That’s why you couldn’t make it to the opening of the exhibition eh? Weren’t you on the harbour? Zoe: Yes on a blow up dinghy made for a pool. I was like literally in the middle of the harbour. It took us hours to get there on a blow up dinghy that’s like 20 dollars from the Warehouse and we had to take a pump because it kept deflating and we had no life jackets. I don’t know what we were thinking. And I realised what day it was and where I was meant to be and I tried to get hold of you and yep I missed the exhibition because I was in the middle of the harbour on a blow up dinghy. Jac: Yeh you sent a photo and we all looked at it and went that looks so dangerous. You should be here on land at the exhibition right now. Zoe: I also sent photos to my mother too. She wasn’t impressed either. Jac: So are you in a relationship at the moment? Zoe: I am, ah, I’m seeing someone. Jac: There’s a difference? Zoe: Apparently I don’t know, yes? I don’t know, I go with the flow, I do what I’m told. Jac: How long have you been seeing her? Zoe: Two months, so just getting to know each other which is cool. She’s very cool. Jac: What do you look for in a woman? Zoe: They have to be easy going like me otherwise I will just stress them out, they have to be fun and just ready to up and do something. I don’t plan things like ending up in Russia that just happened. So if I get a girl who likes to plan things and work it all out over months, actually now I think about it I think she does but that’s ok. They have to be spontaneous and down for a good time and adventurous and want to jump out of a plane. Jac: What was that about ending up in Russia? Zoe: So in 2013 my Dad took up sumo wrestling and told me that I had to do it. So I went along and I actually enjoyed it for about a month and then it kind of just happened that I got a ticket to Russia in October. So in April I took up wrestling and in October I was in Russia at the World Combat Games representing Oceania for sumo wrestling so that was pretty cool. So that’s a bit of how spontaneous I can be. Mum didn’t know I was doing it and I called her up and I didn’t have the money at the time for the visa. I needed 75 dollars for the visa so I called her up and said ‘Mum I’m going to Russia in a couple of weeks and I need 75 dollars for the visa’ and she's like ‘what for?’ she didn’t know, no one did. Jac: How did you go? Zoe: I got my butt handed to me. Yeh the Russians really know how to sumo. I was the lightest in my weight as well and that didn’t help and I put on heaps of weight for it. Jac: So what weight were you and what weight were you up against? Zoe: The weight divisions go 65 and under, 65 to 85 and then 85 plus and when I started I was sitting on 90 and over those months I got up to 130 so I really packed it on. People were asking me ‘what’s your training?’ and I was just eating, I just needed to eat. I was still the lightest. I was 120 something, I was up against girls who were 160 plus and with technique and strength and they weren't lazy girls, they were strong, and scary, really scary. Jac: When you finished that competition did you carry on? Zoe; No, I’ve been meaning to like I can but no, I’ve been moving around too much. I’ve missed a few opportunities. I missed an opportunity to go to Columbia, I was a bit disappointed, but they’re always there, they’re always come around. Jac: What other sort of sports would you get into? Zoe: Everything, I’ve played everything, I enjoy everything, cricket, rugby, bowls, I actually love bowls. Jac: Do you have all the whites for bowls? Zoe: No I don’t I should though that would be fun. I just wore a a team shirt. Over in Oz I played, they love it. They just drink and play bowls all day, all ages, so I wasn’t the only young kid. All colourful. I think if you compete you have to. I wasn’t that serious. My cousin plays for New Zealand. Jac: So what was your outfit for sumo? Zoe: I wore the nappy thing. It’s called a Mawashi. So I wore than and I wore bike shorts and a singlet underneath so I was covered yeh. Jac: It sounds gorgeous. Zoe: Yeh really sexual. Jac: Or sexy even. Zoe: Yeh I was bit worried going to Russia. A few years ago I think it was 2010, I had a heartbreak and I got a tattoo at the time, stars on my shoulders which at the time the internet told me not to get and they’re really dangerous and I was advised off it because they’re Russian mafia tattoos. But I thought to myself and I said this to my friend at the time ‘I’m never going to go to Russia, and if I ever go to Russia why would I take my top off?’, and there’s me the other year in Russia with my top off in a singlet wrestling. I kid you not the moment I took off my top, my t-shirt, and just had a singlet the whole audience gasped. They’re Russian mafia tattoos. A big no-no. Jac: But nothing came of it other than they just squashed you anyway? Zoe: They laughed at me. This lady stopped me afterwards and said ‘you, you look so big and tough but you’re so scared’. Yeh it was really embarrassing. It was funny, it was really funny but nothing happened. I got in trouble in Russia. I thought I’d get in trouble more for being gay, you know they’re quite conservative and that but no I got in trouble for wearing jandals and a t-shirt in the snow. I had pants on, it was really hot. Jac: Who told you off? Zoe: Random ladies in the street, abused me in the street for wearing jandals and a t-shirt. In St Petersburg it was snowing and that. It was really hot because we were walking around but if we stood around we got cold. Jac: They were probably just a bit worried about you. Zoe: I don’t know what they were saying but it sounded aggressive. Jac: I know you don’t like to plan but what have you got coming up in the next few months? Zoe: In the next few months I’m going to Christchurch, going to save up some money. Go snowboarding, see my Godson who was just born down in Queenstown and cause havoc in Christchurch I think. I really want to do my two year OE in Europe so I’ll save for that, and on the way to that I want to spend six months travelling Asia on a motorbike. So the next few months is all about saving and planning which is not what I like to do but we’ll see how it goes. I’ve told the girl I’m seeing to take my eftpos card and give me an allowance so hopefully that works.

IRN: 855
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/butch_on_butch_lynley.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004345
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089639
TITLE: Lynley - Butch on Butch
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 1950s; 1960s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Auckland Stock Exchange; Butch on Butch (exhibition/series); Catholicism; Hallensteins; Jac Lynch; Karen Plummer; New Zealand Womans Weekly; North Shore; Robert Muldoon; Wellington; Whangaparāoa; World War 1; acceptance; ballroom dancing; butch; childhood toys; children; closeted; clothing; cricket; dance; dolls; domestic violence; employment; family; growing up; hockey; lesbian; lipstick lesbian; makeup; marriage; newspapers; parents; personal ad (newspaper/magazine); public servant; relationships; siblings; sport; theatre; ties; transcript online; trust; unconditional love; women
DATE: 19 March 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 19 March 2015
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Jac: Lynley, you grew up on the North Shore is that right? Lynley: Yes, yes, before the Harbour Bridge was built. Yup, 1950s. Jac: Can you tell us a bit about that time and how it was for you as a child growing up on that side of Auckland? Lynley: It was wonderful. Lots and lots of free land for us to roam and play all sorts of games. At the end of our street there was a really really big mountain of earth, huge mountain of earth, we called it the mountain. And quite often we’d put in our cricket wickets at the bottom of the mountain and we would play for hours, cricket up and down the street. Usually one side of the street against the other side of the street. It was a load of fun, it was really really great. Very little traffic. The buses ran usually to, the people, their timetable as opposed to a bus timetable. Good old Birkenhead Transport. Everybody knew everybody else, it was incredible, it was great. Jac: Who was in your family? Lynley: I’ve got two older brothers. Quite older than me, seven and six years older than me. I was a surprise and I continued my whole childhood as a surprise (laughs). Jac: In what way? Lynley: If I wanted to know something, if I wanted to be told about something, if something was puzzling me, I would keep on and on and I would know if I was being fobbed off by Mum or by Dad. The best one was my grandmother who lived with us for a number of years before she passed on, good Lancashire lass, I think some of her genes have rubbed off on to me because she was a dancer pre- World War One, she was a dancer in various theatres in London. She just loved life and I think I actually carry a lot of her genes in me. Jac: Are you a dancer? Lynley: I have been a dancer. Many many years ago my mother taught ballroom dancing and so she held classes in the local church hall. Again, small area, everybody who had a skill, it was offered to the whole community and we used to have dances in the church hall. Jac: So that’s where you learnt to ballroom dance? Did you learn to lead or follow? Lynley: Quite often there wouldn’t be enough boys and so, yep, I led. Jac: And how was that? Lynley: But not by example (laughs). It was good, it just seemed natural. It was just totally natural because my mother was leading, she was teaching so she was leading, so that was normal. Jac: How long into your life were you dancing? Lynley: Until I discovered cricket. Back in the ‘60s I discovered there were women’s teams on the North Shore. West Lake High School had a very very good cricket team. I didn’t go to that school. And so the dancing went out. I was only doing it because mother would like me to be there. That was the only reasons I went dancing, no, I discovered cricket and other things. Jac: How far did you go with the cricket? Lynley: Some way. North Shore, we could have to travel over to the city to play against other teams. I was selected once for the Rose Bowl Competition but lack of funds we couldn’t travel anywhere. One or two of my close friends and I’m still, you know, in contact with them were selected for the women’s team back in ’67 or ’68 to travel to England and they went by ship. Jac: Did you go? Lynley: No (laughs)Jac: Was it unusual for women to be playing cricket in those days? Lynley: Once you were in it, no. Both my brothers played cricket and I got to hear of it. It was one of my brother’s friends, his sister played and I got to hear of it, and it was Carol who was selected and went overseas. There were a few of them. Even Karen Plummer went I think, that’s a name that should ring some bells for a few people. But no, it was great. And most of the women who actually played cricket, also played hockey in the Winter. I played once. That ball just travelled right up the hockey stick and went into my nose and broke it and I never went back after that (laughs). You can get all sorts of bruises and bumps and what have you from a cricket ball but that was just bang, no thanks, not for me. Jac: So you were sporty as a young person, and as a young adult. Lynley: Yes. I still played cricket after my sons were born. That was my time. And it was ok to have that. I just felt ‘why the heck can’t I?’. Just a few hours on a Sunday afternoon, it was great. Jac: Was that in Auckland? Lynley: Yeh, again on the North Shore. I was married and had the two boys. The boys loved to come with me because, you know, they were fussed over and taken for jaunts up to the dairy to get an ice block. Jac: How long were you married for? Lynley: About 10, 12 years. I had the boys, we had been married about seven years and yea, things sort of turned to custard. Made me look and made me search so I although I was moving away from a situation that was a little bit violent, having that opportunity to also look at two ways I could go and I went and accepted myself as a lesbian woman. Had two really really horrid experiences and went back into the close for a number of years after that. But when I moved to Wellington in the ‘90s I knew then because this is like, lesbian fest, especially in the Public Service. This is, you know, oh, and if you don’t look at it and think ‘ok time out, think it through’. Yeh, it fits, I fit, I’m happy. Totally. Jac: So how did you come out in Wellington? Who did you meet up with? Lynley: We’ve often talked about it, and laughed about it. But we, Linda and I tell people who ask “how did you meet?”, we say “we were in media studies together”. She advertised in the paper and I saw it (laughs) and we’ve literally been together ever since, 18 years. Jac: And that was in the personal ads? Lynley: It used to be the local paper, the Contact. It was under Alternative Lifestyles. (Laughs). Yea, it was really funny because I wasn't looking. I went home on a Friday night and I was sitting down and I just opened the local paper and her ad just boom as if nothing else was on the paper, it was just that. And I thought ‘oh what the hell, it can’t hurt’. Gave her a ring and left a message. She replied on that Sunday night and we met up about a week later and it’s been 18 years of absolute ups and downs and whatever but it’s been incredible, incredible. Jac: Tell me about ‘incredible’. Lynley: Allowing oneself to go that extra mile within, having the trust, unconditional love, totally unconditional love. We both had to learn, we both had to discuss and we had our moments. But all through that, I think having the support within Linda’s family, amazing, an amazing family. I’ve been really really fortunate in finding Linda and she says the same, yea. Jac: How was the support from your family? Lynley: When I told my oldest brother, his wife, they were both together and I told him and Marilyn said ‘well, its about time’ and Mike was just ‘oh, what do you want me to do or say?’. I just said ‘absolutely nothing, I’m just telling you, letting you know that this is who I am’. ‘Oh, yea, yea, I’ll sit on that one’. And he’s been fine, he’s absolutely fine. My other brother doesn’t speak to me but it’s sad but I respect him for it, you know, if he can’t or doesn’t want to look into something then yea, it’s just what he is. But I love him dearly, I’ll always love him but, you know, it’s just the way it is. You can’t do anything. Jac: Did you have an inkling when you were young? Lynley: Yes. I didn't know what it was. As I put in my little piece for the photoshoot, the family next door to us they were Catholics, they had six or seven children and there was one in particular who, I thought she was just amazing. I didn’t connect it until a few years down the track but she was butch, and even 40, 50 years later she is still very butch (laughs). Jac: You ran into her recently, is that right? Lynley: I tracked her down, I tracked her down. Because my boys live in Whangaparoa, we quite often stay in a motel in Orewa and I knew that she had moved to Orewa and so I just looked it up in the phonebook and in fact we were only about five or six houses away in the motel from where she lived. And so it was awesome to go and see her. And, yea, she’s just the same, maybe even a bit more shorter. She used to say that she was five foot and a quarter (laughs). Jac: What made her stand out for you when you were young? Lynley: A, her job. She delivered in a little Morrie van, motorcar parts and she was really really family orientated. She was always there for her Mum. And I’d sort of see her especially in the school holidays and she’d be out coming up the path ‘hello mate, you want to come out with me this afternoon?’, ‘yea, yea, yea, yea, yea’, and you know, I would go out with her and sit in the car and we would talk about anything and everything but I couldn’t put a pin on it, I can’t actually even now. It was just something that I knew deep down, I knew and time will tell. Because my mother would sort of say ‘oh did you go out with her again?’ and I’d go ‘yea, it was neat fun. We went here, there and everywhere’ and she’d go ‘you’ll have to stop doing that’ and I just sort of held it in ‘no I won’t, no I won’t’. Jac: So you liked her, there was something about her that was appealing rather than an attraction as such? Lynley: An attraction, yea. A kind of inner knowing that I’m going to be like that. I’m talking about an 8 or 9 year old. You’ve got to remember, I was an inquisitive kid, if I couldn’t get what I thought was an honest answer, I pushed and pushed until I did. Jac: How old was she? Lynley: She would have been in her ‘20s. The amazing thing, I would watch her come home after work, and obviously her partner at the time, and they lived in that house, you know, their own bedroom in that house, for a Roman Catholic family, totally and utterly accepted. See, so all of that was at the back of my mind. Because I could hear others go ‘oh there they go’ or my brothers would say something derogatory and I’d go ‘oh’ but I didn’t know why I was feeling ‘oh’ when they’d say things like that. I didn’t know all the puzzle but it was quite quickly when I got old enough for the pieces to fall in. Jac: And when you met up with her again did you talk about how it was for you when you were both young? Lynley: Yea. She said, and I’ve just remembered, which relates to what you now call Butch on Butch, BOB, her older brother used to call me Bob (laughs). So yea, I think they did recognise it because the other girls in the street would be given dolls. My father made the most wonderful dolls house for me, it had electric lights and everything. I never played with it, I wanted a cap gun or roman sandals. Happiest in t-shirt and shorts. Jac: In the narrative that you wrote for the exhibition you told this beautiful story about wearing a tie to go see your doctor. Can you tell us that story again? Lynley: I had to go down to see Doctor D and I had not long started at the intermediate school and I loved it because you had a white shirt but you had a dark red tie. And so I was all set to go onto school after the doctor visit. And so I walked in to his room, and he was always sitting behind his desk, and he looked up and he said ‘who tied your tie?’ ‘I did’ . Goes to the door, opens it, calls out to the nurse ‘set up a few bandages, would you?’. So we go down to the dressing room and he showed me how to ties the perfect windsor knot and the double windsor knot tie and we didn’t finish until I had a decent looking tie. And I loved ties back then I love them now. And there’s nothing worse than seeing, even the guys on TV, I can’t help it I look at their tie and I go ‘ooh he doesn’t know how to do it’. (Laughs). Jac: I saw you when I first started working here, because we work at the same place, and I’ve seen you in your tie and your waistcoat and you look fantastic and you stand out in this place even though the Public Service is full of lesbians like you say. Do you find yourself comfortable in this work environment? Lynley: Totally. I guess I’m luckier than most because my work is IT and so I can get away with wearing polo shirts, shirts with a tie. In fact what you’ve raised on clothing, public servants, when I first started back in the ‘90s down here, you could tell a public servant a mile off, black and white, white shirt, white tops, black trousers, black skirt. But now the guys don’t wear ties, they wear polo shirts, they wear just about anything. It’s changed. And so as I’ve gotten more comfortable so has the way I dress. I feel comfortable to be who I am and what I wear. That’s pretty much it. Jac: That’s a nice place to get to eh? Lynley: It is, it is. I mean Hallensteins have had fantastic sales on polo shirts (laughs). Polo shirts with button down collars, wonderful, totally. Jac: Thanks Lynley, is there anything that you want to add? Lynley: There is something that I would like to mention. In fact, I’m quite proud of. I worked for the Auckland Stock Exchange back in about 1968, 69 and they had the call over system then and that’s where the stockbrokers would all come into the room and sit at desks and the session was opened, transactions and shares were completed and then it was closed. Well, Auckland Stock Exchange went ahead and bought their own building and they went to the Stock Board and I was the first chalky and the first woman on a Stock Exchange floor in New Zealand. I was interviewed for Women’s Weekly, it was incredible. The building was opened by Robert Muldoon, god love him, and yea, I often wondered if they kept those records. Jac: I’ve seen the photo, you look very glam in your skirt. Lynley: That’s the one, that is the one, yes indeed, I did wear high heels and stockings and makeup. Jac: How did that feel? Lynley: It just felt normal. It’s only in the last five or six years that I’ve stopped wearing makeup. I don’t know alot of the makeup just irritates and flares up especially eye makeup around my eyes so that’s the reason I just stopped wearing it. Yep, lipstick lesbian, I was.

IRN: 849
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/butch_on_butch_creek.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004344
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089638
TITLE: Creek - Butch on Butch
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Creek
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Butch on Butch (exhibition/series); Clitocybe nuda; Creek; Dunedin; Hokitika; Jac Lynch; Jools Topp; K. D. Lang; Lynda Topp; Methodist; Otari-Wilton's Bush; Topp Twins; Wellington; West Coast; academics; assimilation; attraction; biodiversity; butch; butch phobia; butch solidarity; capitalism; celibate; clothing; community; confidence; conservative; consumerism; culture; divorce; family; femininity; feminism; femme; friends; fungi; gender identity; growing up; homogenisation; honesty; hyperfemininity; hypermasculinity; identity; insistence; kaupapa; language; lesbian; love; marriage; marriage equality; media; melodrama; mentor; monogamy; mushrooms; open relationship; parents; patriarchal system; persistence; queer; relationships; resistance; role model; rural; self esteem; self hate; sexism; sexuality; shame; shorts; social justice; submissive; support; tomboy; transcript online; transgressive; transmasculine; transmasculinity; trust; vulnerability
DATE: 9 March 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Creek talks about identifying as a butch female submissive transmasculine lesbian.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 9 March 2015
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Creek: Butch is my gender, and female my sex, and submissive my sexuality, and lesbian how I fall in love, and transmasculine is equally my gender; trans* as in trans-gressive, illegal, not how most people want a female body to be embodied. I write these things with confidence but don’t ask me to explain: the language has too many sharp corners and I don’t want to back myself into one. And long ago, making concrete conclusions ceased to be the purpose of thinking about this stuff. I don’t like concrete anyway; it deprives us of versatile space. I like fungi. Fungi are everywhere, sometimes invisible, sometimes visible, insistently living, and vastly, wildly, unimaginably diverse. They remind me I have a right – we all do, us queers – to be an active participant in biodiversity, not merely a frightened bystander. Jac Lynch: Creek, when we went to take your photo we went into Wilton Bush into the Reserve on a hunt for fungi to go with your photo, how you wanted to portray yourself. You’ve mentioned it in your narrative, could you go into that a little bit more for us? Creek: Sure, I spend a lot of my spare time reading about or thinking about mushrooms and going out into the forest ostensibly to look for them, sometimes I just go for walks anyway, but my vision has become quite acutely honed towards looking for mushrooms now. I can spot them at a 100 metres and I associate them with queerness because I guess we are living in a consumer capitalist world that is heavily focused on homogenising us and our genders, our sexualities, our culture, and trying to package everyone into feminine female hyperfeminine and highly hygienic and sterilised feminine bodies and likewise for male bodies and I’m not interested in that. I’m interested in biodiversity and in the fungal kingdom is where I see that the most strongly pronounced. IN the fungal kingdom there are 1. 5 million species of mushroom probably. They definitely have more than two of what we’d call sexes. I don’t know how many. Some species there are some five different kinds of mating combinations that are required to produce mushrooms and sometimes there are species that are multiple parent more than one specific organism of fungus and they are very persistent. They crop up everywhere, you can put asphalt over them and sometimes a mushroom will still come up. And I think that speaks a lot about resistance and insistence and persistence so I admire them and I find them very refreshing as well and surprising and colourful and good. Jac: I’ve known you a little while now and hearing you speak about fungi like that makes me think about some of the people around you (laughs). Creek: (Laughs) That’s right, that’s right, I am surrounded by exciting mushrooms. They are like certain species. They have got quite queer names too. There’s one called clitocybe nuda which is this great purple mushroom and I guess that my husband and wife Sian is quite a rarity and quite colourful. She’s got bright pink hair at the moment. She’s going to get it cut off soon but anyway she could be a mushroom I suppose in that kind of exciting and colourful way. Jac: I love it. You talk about butch being your gender. When did you come to that? Creek: I have a butch mentor who lives in Sydney. I think she would be happy to have that title of mentor and she was a friend of my previous partner and so I’ve known her for maybe 10 years now. And ever since I was 18 I was always sure about my sexuality in fact more sure than I am that was as a lesbian identified person but it didn't really cross my mind to think about butch and femme very much until we were having a discussion about it and she said - while I’ve been asked this question subsequently - well we said to her as a couple ‘well, which of us is butch and which is femme?’ And she said ‘well you’re butch and you’re femme’. I was quite butchphobic at the time. My father always wanted me to more ladylike, it was a constant refrain. So I think my heart sank a little bit but at the same time I definitely recognised that it was true and ever since then I have been on a journey of becoming far less butchphobic and in face butch proud and kind of shaking off that yoke of self-hatred I suppose that my father put upon me. Jac: How have you gone about finding out more about butch as an identity? Creek: Well, yeh, again tribute to Chris in Sydney who simply identifies as butch and is butch. I guess looking in the mainstream media you don’t see a lot of butch role models. The only people who come to mind are the Topp Twins, I don’t know if they identify as Butch and kd lang who I know is butch identified but I’ve had to find people within my own community, not celebrities, to be role models. I’ve loved that process. I’d say that it’s only recently in the last 3 or 4 years that I’ve started actively to cultivate friendships with butches and to have butch solidarity. Previously I guess I just became friends with whoever I became friends with. It’s become more important and how did I go about it? Just living in our community, spending more time in the queer community. Just seeing how choice it is to be butch and how special it is because we’re not the majority maybe, I don’t know, and that has been good in looking to find out more about it. Jac: What does butch solidarity mean for you? Creek: Being mates with you Jac. When I was quite a bit younger, say two people meet each other who are both butches who both have a bit of butch phobia in them my experience has been that you look at one another and go ‘Hi, I hate you’ ‘Hi, I hate you too’ and that’s your interaction, full stop. I see you nodding there so I’m not alone. I don’t hate other butches and wherever I don’t see that reflected back to me I will gravitate towards that, strike up conversation or seek to socialise if that’s what’s on offer. What does solidarity mean? Just being mates with and not ‘I hate you-ish'. I wouldn’t extend beyond that too much with words because if you use words you get into too much territory of narrowing it down in some way. Some sort of nice vibe is what I would summarise it as. Jac: In terms of the butch-femme dynamic, can you tell me how that is in your life? Creek: Yes and I want to start with a disclaimer as I am really not trying to render a strong opinion here because I understand that it antagonises a lot of people when people are militant about butch and femme. But my own personal experience is that I am naturally attracted to femmes. I wouldn’t say I was naturally attracted to other butches, sexually that is or erotically. Eros exists between me and femmes fairly often I think and I feel comfortable about that, it feels groovy. I think it’s been an important for me to learn that butch does not exist because femme exists. Like femme maybe in an opposites attract kind of way but it doesn’t give rise to butch. I am butch when I go to the bathroom to brush my teeth or got to woods looking for mushrooms. I am always butch. I am butch and I am in a relationship with someone who is femme, who identifies as femme, who I think identifies as femme when she goes to brush her teeth or when we look for mushrooms. They exist quite independently of one another and that’s just a bit of magical magics. I don’t know why for me there is a natural instinctive attraction towards the feminine. Maybe just a yin yang thing, I don’t know. Jac: Creek, what’s your background? What’s your family background and where have you come from? Creek: My family are rural working class West Coast, South Island. West Coasters are quite particular, quite eccentric I think and Dad was, growing up in the early 80s and 90s was, what’s the word when you’re trying to rise above your class or better yourself or something? So anyway he never really pulled that off but I think in consequence he had a lot of shame around various things so for me to be not a feminine female was quite shaming to him and to be a lesbian also is quite shaming to him but he can get over it. And my mother, I don’t now my mother very well. I did grow up in the same house as her but that is all about I can say. She came from a middle class background and they remain married and they now live in London they have done since 2002. I mean I can’t say that my mother put a heap of pressure on me to be any one way or other. She didn’t give very much guidance at all and that is ok. It leaves a kind of a vacuum that I’ve been able to fill myself which is in some ways better than what some people have had so I’ve been fortunate in being able to make my own way in that way. I was always pinpointed as a tomboy and always have been butch and that was hard sometimes in childhood but here I am. But we had some quite Methodist values growing up in some ways, we went to Methodist church a little bit and that means being social justice focused and I think I’ve retained some of that while being definitely agnostic if not atheist. Jac: So when you left the West Coast, what sort of age were you then and where did you go? Creek: Sorry, I was born in Dunedin and raised there and left Dunedin when I was 30 to come to Wellington. We spent most of my school holidays in Hokitika. My father was from there and I feel quite a strong West Coast influence because that’s the side of the family I have most to do with and there’s more of them. And then moved to Wellington at 30 just after quite a bit of a life crisis in Dunedin which was good because then it again caused a period of renewal in myself and gained some confidence and some self-esteem including around gender and queer identity stuff. Jac: And you came to Wellington because you knew people, or…? Creek: No Dunedin is quite a celibate place and I had broken up from a 10 year relationship and really it’s not only only quite a celibate city. It’s not just butch phobic but quite queer phobic and quite conservative in many ways and the students I suppose you’d call them more liberal and progressive but there also 12 years old or whatever. So yeh I moved to Wellington and Wellington is much more venal that Dunedin full stop and it’s got a bigger queer community. I wanted community at that point. Yeh. Jac: So how long have you been here now? Creek: Two years now. I moved here at the very beginning of 2013. Jac: Recently you got married, and I was very fortunate and honoured to be at that wedding and I did notice that you actually had family there which was nice. Could you talk about that aspect of it having those folk come along too? Creek: Most of the family who were there were aunties and an uncle on my father’s side plus my father and they are the West Coast clan and I think their direction or their kaupapa in life I think it’s fair to say that they will accept you if say be yourself hard out don’t put on airs and graces and don’t be affected, don’t try to be something you’re not. And I’m quite strenuously not trying to be someone I’m not. I’m very strenuously trying to be myself now and lead an authentic life and that has brought me closer to my family in recent years. And I think they would take up arms to defend me now. A lot of people who were at the wedding said ‘oh it was really good of your family to be there’. They’re obviously ‘rednecks’ is the implication but they aren’t in practice. But my aunt on my mother’s side was there who’s an academic and I feel academics are just as conservative in their own ways or just as redneck in their own ways as country people are or can be. You find conservatives in all nooks and crannies, hmm, academics. Jac: The wedding itself was pretty special. Are you ok about telling us a little bit about the wedding and how you envisaged it and how it went for you on the day and so on? Creek: Yep well Sian and I have got I think quite a lot of shared values and one of our most important values is being authentic and being expressive, that’s two values, and also being free, that’s a third value, and we love melodrama and we wanted a really melodramatic ceremony and so we did that. We wanted to show all facets of our life together in the wedding and so on our cake we had drawings of ourselves going through a dark forest holding torches looking for one another. At one end of the cake we’re in a clearing and it’s happy and good, at the other end of the cake it’s dark and scary. The reason for that is that relationships are not always in clearings and sunny and good and sometimes you have dark patches together and rough patches and you have to pick up the torch and go and look for one another in the forest. And other times you are in a sunny clearing and you have to be real about that and that’s not always smooth sailing. We wanted to speak passionately about our love for one another and our declarations, what we called our cliterations. We didn’t want to assimilate and be like heterosexuals in any traditional way, we’re not interested in that so we spoke about wanting to live our lives fully and wanting to support each other through any change or growth that we might need to do within the relationship and not trying to control one another and buy into the normal patriarchal structural ways of being together. I myself particular have to watch that I think. Jac: In what way? Creek: Well I think sometimes in butch femme dynamics there’s a traditional sexism, where the traditionally masculine person is controlling, has more privilege and abuses that privilege or something like and we don’t want to commute that to our relationship. We also brought to our wedding ceremony our sexual dynamic which is that Sian is a top and I am a bottom. Or a dominant and I am a submissive and that also that is a departure I think from traditional sexism. We didn’t want to transplant that into our relationship or into our wedding. I crawled alongside her for part of the walking up the aisle part and that was symbolic of that and after the ceremony the celebrant said ‘you may now pick up the Queen’ so I picked her up so I guess she rendered herself vulnerable in that way also. Vulnerability is really important to us and to me also. I think that’s a thing that butches sometimes get into. A kind of bravado or machismo-ism, I don’t buy into that, I don’t have enough energy so yeh we did our own thing very much and we wore what we wanted. I want to say for the record that I wore shorts for my wedding and I felt really proud about that because when I was growing up I guess it was one of the things that my peers would point out as being wrong was I wore shorts and that made me like a boy and that’s wrong. But I really found that liberating. I recently started wearing shorts again and it’s so liberating. I love it. Jac: Fantastic. Well the wedding is I guess the start of marriage, so why marriage? Creek: Why marriage? For us it’s actually deeply personal, it wasn’t like shall we get married to acquire the status of a married couple. It felt like I’ve been in the lost and found for a certain portion of my life and here’s this person who’s willing to claim me like an old hoodie and hold me up and say ‘this is mine’ and that feels really good for me just on a personal level. It’s not about ownership, that’s a metaphor about ownership but it’s not about ownership in any other way. We have an open relationship and it will stay that way until such a time as we change our minds about that. It feels good, in fact the idea of monogamy is very horrific to me but anyway, like it would be like a cage. That’s just me and I think it’s Sian too. And for Sian I think a similar thing, deeply personal, she’s had a sense of being an orphan I think at times as well. She’s got parents obviously and I’ve got parents, just that sense of being alone in the world and then not being alone in the world when you find someone who you reckon you could spend long, long years with and so we did that. It was healing and it felt good. We know we have our detractors some of them are still our friends in terms of actually getting married. And some of our detractors were actually at the wedding so that felt really good. Like my mentor in Sydney came over for it and she does thoroughly not believe in marriage. I don’t think you do either do you? Jac: No, I’m ok with it. Creek: You’re ok with it. Jac: Have things felt different since the wedding? Creek: I guess there is something momentous in someone saying to you ‘I trust you so much’ you're saying ‘I want to spend the rest of my life with you’. We are both open to the notion of divorce. You dial the Department of Internal Affairs and you push one for divorce ‘If this is a divorce situation press one, if this is an enquiry about getting married press two’. Interestingly divorce comes first. It must be that divorce is more urgent or something. There’s that but our wish I think is to spend the rest of our lives together and so occasionally yeh it really strikes me just that fact that that much trusted and that much loved that whatever dark forests we go through our intention is to find one another again. Yeh. We’ve only been together a year and a half and we’ve already had some strife early on and we did so in a reasonably radically honest way and that has been really emboldening to us as a coupling. Jac: Thanks Creek, I guess we’ll finish it there. Is there anything you’d like to add? Creek: I guess if you’re listening and you’re butch and you are newly identified as butch then I send you my solidarity, I send you my love quite unashamedly and I wish you all the best. Thanks for listening.

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TITLE: Sara - Butch on Butch
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VOICES: Sara Fraser
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 1980s; 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Butch on Butch (exhibition/series); Celtic; Jac Lynch; London; Peter Cuthbert; School's Out (Lower Hutt); School's Out (Wellington); Scotland; Tauranga; The Queer Avengers (Wellington); Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPPA); United Kingdom; University of Otago Wellington School of Medicine; Wellington; Wellington Gay Welfare Group; accomodation; activism; advice; anger; arts; bathrooms; butch; capitalism; clothing; community; diversity; family; feminism; femme; funding; gender identity; gender studies; helpline; heterosexism; homelessness; homophobia; homophobic bullying; housing; human rights; identity; labels; labrys; language; oppression; parents; photography; politics; queer; relationships; research; social; social housing; sporran; study; support; transcript online; transphobia; university; women's studies; worker's rights
DATE: 8 March 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Sara talks about politics, activism and newly completed research looking at heterosexism in tertiary student accommodation.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 8 March 2015
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Jac Lynch: Sara, you were involved in the Butch on Butch photo project. That was fantastic. I was really thrilled when you came forward about that. Can you give us an idea about why you wanted to be involved in the project? Sara: I don’t know, it’s kind of tricky. Ultimately what it boiled down to was the fact that it was you doing it. It was someone I felt I could trust. Someone I knew had an understanding of being butch and what that means and so that kind of just made me feel comfortable and made me want to volunteer and do it really. Jac: Oh thanks, that’s not the answer I was expecting but (laughs) I’ll take that. The photo we ended up taking was based on your idea and we went into some bush around Wellington and set up quite a stylised photo. Would you like to take us through that because it was really your idea about how you wanted to be seen and it was really you that controlled that shoot. Could you take us through what you wanted to do with that photo. Sara: My Celtic hereditary is quite important to me, it’s a strong part of how I identify so wearing my kilt was quite important to me I guess. Jac: Tell us about your kilt. Sara: Well it’s my family tartan and it’s something I’m really proud to wear. Jac: Do you get much chance to wear it? Sara: No I reserve it just for special occasions so it’s the first time I’ve worn it I think since my graduation in 2002. Jac: And you’re wearing some other kit that looks fairly Celtic too. Tell us about that. Sara: I guess you’re referring to the sporran (laughs). Jac: I thought it was a merkin (laughs) but there you go. Sara: I’m sure it’s been referred to as one of those before. Yes that’s a sporran referred to often as a man’s purse. I don’t know what more to say about those. Jac: Well that’s quite a decision for you anyway to be making to be wearing a man’s purse as such so that’s part of the image you were wanting to portray with this? Sara: Yes I think so. I mean there’s whole lot of regalia that can go with wearing a kilt. There’s proper socks and garters, a skindo, which is a knife, and then the upper clothing is quite specific as well but I don’t possess any of those for a start but the sporran for me is, I don’t know what it is, but it represents something I guess but particularly for that shoot. But just generally when I do wear it I always make sure I’ve got a sporran on. Jac: I’m looking at your photo now and I can see quite a collection of necklaces. Can you talk to those? Sara: Yeh well there’s, I’ve got my labrys bone carving which was made for me by a friend for my 25th birthday. I’ve got three things and I wear them all the time, I’ve got the Celtic knot, a pendant that my Mum bought me for my 40th birthday and that represents my Celtic heritage along with the kilt but obviously the necklace is there all the time. I’ve got the labrys which represents my identity as a lesbian and then I’ve got a greenstone adze which was gifted to me and that just represents the New Zealand side of my family and my new being as being someone who came to live in New Zealand from somewhere else. Jac: Where did you come from? Tell us a bit about your background. Sara: From the UK originally. I was born in London, my Mum married an Englishman and I was born nine months after the honeymoon (laughs). I don’t know it’s kind of weird, it’s something I’m aware of obviously, it is not something that plays a big part of whom I am. Maybe other people see me in that sense, I don’t really know but I’ve got Scottish heritage, was born in England and came to New Zealand when I was 17 with my Mum, and New Zealand is my home. My Mum and sister went back to the UK for a number of years, my sister still lives there, my Mum returned about three years ago. But I’ve always stayed here, New Zealand’s home. I love being in New Zealand. I love being here and I love the life that I’ve developed for myself as a result of being here. Jac: When you first came to New Zealand, where did you come to live? Sara: Auckland, and I hated it. I’d been here a couple of times before. Once when my Dad died and then before that when my Grandfather was dying. And to me that was in the late 70s and early 80s, it was a small little backward out of the way country and I hated it. So when my Mum said we’re moving here, it was like ‘No!’, I tried everything I could and she said ‘well, if you can find a job you can stay,’ but I couldn’t find a job so I had to come with her but as times gone on and the country’s changed and I’ve changed I wouldn’t have it any other way. I would never go back to live. I think New Zealand is the best place to live and I love living in Wellington particularly. Jac: Why did you move to Wellington? Sara: To be honest I moved to Wellington for study. I wanted to be studying at the heart of politics, what I thought was the heart of politics, capital city where the seat of Government is and I thought it would be more politically active and I could get more engaged with that kind of stuff. I also came here with the original plan of doing the Masters in Creative Writing at Vic but that’s a really hard course to get into so I wasn't accepted but I did other things instead and I love it. Jac: So what is it about Wellington and the political scene here, and who do you have connections with here that kind of keep you going? Sara: Wellington just feels like home, it just feels like the right place to be and there’s always something going on if you look for it. Like today when I was at the TPPA march. My politics is really important to me, it’s part of who I am. So there’s always something to engage in if you want to or if you can’t find something to engage with it’s quite easy to find like-minded people and create something yourself. Being politically connected and being connected to the community are really important things to me. Jac: So on the political spectrum, what gets you? Sara: Workers’ rights get me, human rights get me, anything to do with people being oppressed and fighting for the underdog that’s what gets me yeh. Challenging the Capitalist corporate norm, that kind of stuff is important and everybody having the right to live the life that they want to. Jac: So are you involved in groups in Wellington that help you do that? Sara: Yep, definitely, I haven’t been as active with the TPPA stuff as probably I’d like to be, I’m doing things about that. Wellington Gay Welfare Group is probably the one that springs to mind the most. We’ve been doing a lot of stuff especially in the last two or three years funding different groups and helping people out in making a change to Wellington community, and that’s really cool to be able to do that. Queer Avengers are on a bit of a hiatus at the moment. I was heavily involved in that. That was a really important organisation. At the time we did a lot of activism around transphobia and bullying in schools. That kind of stuff is important so yeh. Jac: So the involvement in collective action has been something that’s driven you for a while. Sara: Yeh. Jac: Do you see anything in yourself in terms of how you are with a butch identity being expressed at all through this, or having a foundation in this at all? Sara: That’s a difficult one to answer because I mean I identify as butch and that’s why I’m in this obviously but it’s part and parcel with who I am. I am butch, I represent as butch, I am butch and butch, therefore I am, kind of thing and it probably does have a part of the political action that I take but I guess I don’t do it because of the butch identity. It’s just there because that’s just who I am. Jac: Would you like to read what you wrote for the narrative that went with your photo? Sara: It is difficult to explain what it means for me being butch, it just is who I am, kinda like trying to explain what it's like to be human. I cannot imagine being anything else. I have been mistaken for the male of the species many times, as far back as I can remember. I still am. During my teens and twenties it used to bother me, but as I have gotten older, I have learnt to have fun with it. It is fascinating seeing how the 'straight' world reacts to me. So, yeah, hard to put in to words what being butch means to me. I just am. Jac: This bit about the straight world reacting to you. Can you give some examples of how you’ve experienced that? Sara: I remember actually one of the first conscious visits of coming to New Zealand. I was 12, my father had just died, so my Mum brought us back here to be with her family for a while. And I remember being in a department store in Tauranga and gone into use the bathrooms and you know as a lot of us experience ‘This is the girl’s room, what are you doing in here?’ And being a shy 12-year-old who had just lost her father I didn’t have the kind of response as what I’d have today so a lot of stuff like that. I remember when I was a bit older, I was about 17 or 18 I think, I was in a pub with a couple of other friends and some guy coming up to me and saying ‘my friend really likes you, she thinks you’re a really cute guy’. It was like “uh, yeh no, sorry’. So he scurried off all embarrassed. Yeh that kind of stuff, the Sir or the Mate, that typical stuff a lot of us experience. As I say it used to bother me but now it’s just like ‘get over it, it’s the 21st century for goodness sake. Stop trying to put your ideals on what someone should present, what society thinks someone should look like. It’s just rubbish.’Jac: Do you find yourself saying that to people or just let it roll off? Sara: No, these days I challenge it. I remember the first time I ever challenged it I was doing an unemployment training scheme thing up in Auckland, when I used to ride a motorbike. I had quite a big bike. I pulled into the carpark one morning and this other guy was getting off his bike at the same time and said ‘oh that’s a big bike for a girl’. So I said ‘fuck off dickhead, it’s not’, something along those lines. I was angry and at that point I was an angry wee person so I ripped into him and told him he needs to grow up and why can’t a woman ride a big bike and what the fuck’s that got to do with anything. I can ride it, I can handle so what? Doesn’t matter if I’m a man or woman or don’t identify as anything I can ride the bike and that’s all that matters. So probably not quite so aggressive these days, not quite so angry but I don’t let people get away with it. If people say something to me, I will challenge them on it. Maybe something like well just because I don’t fit what you consider to be the standards, that’s not my problem, your problem. Jac: Are you around other butch people much these days? Sara: I guess so yeh, just among my friends and some of them identify as butch and some of them don’t. I don’t purposely go out of my way to seek out other butch people. They’re just in the circles that I associate with, they’re there as well. Jac: I thought it was quite interesting in the project that there were about 20 people involved and there was such a range of people from those who just saw themselves as labelled as butch but not necessarily identifying as, to others who were quite happy really to have that as an identity. Sara: Yeh I guess it’s part and parcel about what’s come along in the development and the changes in the growth and the acceptance of queer people and that people are now more comfortable to say ‘yep I identify as butch’ or ‘other people see me as butch but I don’t take that label myself’. I don’t know if it’s just a Wellington thing or if it’s a New Zealand thing or what, some people still struggle, but for me it seems interesting that there is an acceptance of people being able to identify how they want to rather than the binary cos the binary sucks too which butch and femme, the dynamic is part of that but it’s a different aspect of it. It’s not the same as the straight dynamic, it’s quite different. So it just seems there’s a lot more acceptance and there’s a lot more understanding and people just can be who they need to be which I think is cool. Jac: Do you have the butch femme dynamic in your life? Sara: Yes (laughs)Jac: How does that show itself? Sara: Well clearly I’m very butch and my girlfriend is very femme. It’s actually to be honest with you, it’s quite a new thing for me. I’ve had girlfriends in the past who have not identified as femme so it’s been a learning curve to say the least but it’s cool I really like it and it’s made me more proud of who I really am, of me. Having someone who appreciates me for my butchness is a really nice thing to experience. Jac: There’s some critique that you hear sometimes around butch and femme and that dynamic, and around butch perhaps taking up space and those sorts of things. Have you ever been involved in those sorts of discussions? Sara: I haven’t personally but I know it is challenging. I think it’s part of the whole spectrum I suppose. It’s about allowing everybody to identify how they want to and express themselves how they want to but at the same time making sure everyone has space to do that cos I’ve heard of horror stories from the 70s with butch women taking over feminist spaces and being quite oppressive. I like to think that doesn’t happen quite as much or at least as overtly as it might have done once. I could be naive about that. For me I don’t see it as a part of my butchness, I just think it’s fair just for me personally that everyone has a right to have their space and they have their say when they need to. Jac: The groups that you’ve been involved in, Wellington Gay Welfare Group, and the support that they’re giving groups around town. Can you speak a little bit more to that? Sara: It started out as a helpline back in the early 80s but that need seems to have drifted away over the last few years so that side of things have a really got a lot more quiet. So now we’re focussed more on funding where we can. We still run the Peter Cuthbert Trust which is specifically for financial assistance for men with HIV so we’ve got a legacy to do with that. But we haven’t done much in the way of fundraising of late but we try to distribute any monies. People from the community can approach us and say ‘Hey we need money for this. This is what we are going to do with it and this is how much we need. Is it something that you guys can help with?’ And most of time we do. So yeh we’re shifting gear a bit and becoming more of a funding operation and see how that works out and what we can do around that so I think that’s going to be more of our focus. Jac: I know you’ve been involved in helping School’s Out. Can you tell us a little about that? Sara: Yep, School’s Out is a group that Wellington Gay Welfare has supported right from the beginning. It’s a group for youth by youth. They are branching out on their own more these days so they are just rely more on us more for the charitable status and the funding side of things which is really cool as they take off and be their own entity which is amazing. So yeh we just help out with that when we can, when they need us to. I guess you could probably say that Gay Welfare Group is more of an umbrella organisation now and they are definitely our biggest group under the umbrella. So it’s been really nice to see them develop over the years and become their own thing and focus on the needs of youth. We’ve also been in a position where we have been able to help out with funding for paid positions. Unfortunately we haven’t been able to get ourselves into a position where we can continue to pay someone in an employed role in that organisation. It would be good if we can get round to that and it can be a continual thing rather than just short-term and temporary employment but yeh it’s been good to be able to do that when we can. Jac: Do you have any thoughts generally on how the community in Wellington, or the communities in Wellington do act to support each other, or what they could do more? Sara: It’s kind of a curly one that because I guess ultimately we’re not really communities as such. We come together when there is a need which is really good because that would make the situation even worse if we couldn’t even do that. But we do, whenever something comes up, whether it’s a need for funding, or whether it’s a need for activism or support or something we all seem to rally around and come together and help out when the cry is put out. In an ideal world it would be great if we didn’t have to do any of this, we could just be and just exist and there would be plenty of funding for anybody who needed it. You know like in Australia they get millions of dollars from Government for supporting stuff. If we had access to that it would be brilliant. So yeh in an ideal world, fantastic, but unfortunately that’s not the situation and we do what we can when we need to and I think that’s actually quite nice really. Jac: Now, about your studies. Tell us a bit about that. Sara: Crikey. That took longer than it was meant to. I just completed a Masters degree in Gender and Women’s Studies. The last person at Victoria University to graduate from the Gender and Women’s studies department with a Masters degree so that’s kind of cool. I did an examination of the experiences of, well, the official title is ‘An investigation of the homophobic heterosexist culture of tertiary accommodation’ so in a nutshell I was looking at how heterosexist student hostels are cos I worked in them for about four years and not only experienced homophobia myself but witnessed other younger people experiencing it. So I thought well there are some studies done overseas, we needed one done here in New Zealand, so I did it, there was a gap in the literature so that’s what I did. Jac: You’ve just finished it, how long did it take? Sara: It took me four years in the end. Yep. Jac: And what were your findings? Sara: Basically that there is homophobia and heterosexism experienced in hostels. Generally the situation is that it’s not intentional it’s just that the people who run the hostels don’t take a minute to just sit back and see how they can be more open and more accepting to people who don’t identify as straight. So one of the recommendations I’ve made is that they need to have more diversity training within the hostels. The big assumption is that everybody who walks through the door is straight. That’s that. And that’s how they do everything, organise everything, everything they plan is that they just assume that everyone is straight. I just wanted to try and point out that actually that’s a bit of a sucky assumption to make. Jac: Who’s been able to access your research or who’s been interested in it? Sara: Nobody at the moment because I haven’t actually handed in the final version to the library. Once I do that there’ll be a copy online and one in the library, Victoria library so anybody will be able to get hold of it. I’ve had one person already ask me when it will be ready so they can use it in for some research they are producing themselves, up in the Hamilton, a good friend of mine so that’s cool. I’m hoping to publish it in a couple of magazines that go around student hostels, it’d be nice to get some stuff in there. So yeh, it’ll be available to anybody who wants to have a look. Jac: Were you talking to residents and residential assistants, and to others? Who was involved in it? Sara: I didn’t talk to any of the official staff. I did it through an online questionnaire with the students. That was challenging in itself, I had to do it twice because the first time I publicised it, I didn’t get much of a take up but I managed to get quite a few people in the end. So it was just asking anybody in the hall who wanted to take part, you didn’t have to identify as queer in anyway cos I wanted to get a broad response so I could show from their responses that this is the way that these people think and this is why this kind of stuff is challenging if you don’t identify as heterosexual. Jac: Were you looking at the residential halls across New Zealand, or was it mostly Wellington? Sara: Initially it was going to be across New Zealand but due to health reasons I had to reduce that so it just ended up being Victoria actually in the end. Jac: They’ll be interested in your findings when it comes out. Sara: I hope they bloody will be. They should be, I hope so. That’s what it’s about I guess isn’t it? It’s having someone who identifies as queer doing queer research so that people who don’t have an understanding of what that means can take a look at it and say ‘oh yeh, we can implement that in our place, cos that’s easy, that’s straightforward, there’s no reason why we can’t do that.’ Hopefully, that’ll happen. Jac: What sort of work are you involved in? Sara: I’m a research assistant with Otago Medical School here in Wellington and we look at housing. So we look at safety aspects of housing, who gets to live in a house, how easy that is to do. One of the big things we look at is social housing and what the Government is doing to basically destroy that so we point out why it’s important to have social housing and why that’s important and why it’s needed and why the State needs to hang on to it. But I’m also hoping to do my own bit of research later in the year, specifically related to homeless issues specifically related to LGBTI people so that would be really cool if I can pull that off. Jac: Great, what’s your interest there? What’s sparked that? Sara: Again, that’s probably my involvement with Wellington Gay Welfare Group. We’ve had a number of cases over the last three to four years of young people being thrown out of home because they identify as trans* or queer and the parents can’t handle it so they kick them out and they’ve got nowhere to go, no one to turn to, nothing, so we’ve helped out where we can and again there’s a bit of stuff going on overseas so we need to do it here. I’ve learnt in the work I’ve been doing over the last three years that New Zealand tends to copy everywhere else 10 years later so my argument is well why wait 10 years. We need it now, I’m hoping to do it now, so do some research and explain why it’s important to have emergency housing at the very least. Jac: In your experience of how the community rally around, have you seen them rally around those sorts of situations where someone, a young person is homeless and needing help? Sara: Yeh for sure, we’ve got quite a few contacts within WG where people are willing to offer a sofa at the very least, if not a spare room and take people in for a short-term or a longterm. Which is really nice, it’s good to know we’ve got people out there we can rely on when needed. Jac: What sort of advice would you give to a young person that’s coming into the queer communities in Wellington? Sara: Crikey, you’re nothing but the big questions, eh Jac? I don’t know. Be yourself, get support around you, people who will accept you for who you are and don’t want to try and change you. There are people out there who will hug you when you need a hug, they exist and I suppose don’t be afraid to ask for that help when you need it. It can be daunting coming to terms with who you are and to ‘fess that up to somebody else especially if you don’t know them that makes that feeling 10 times worse but we’ve all been there, we’ve all done it. I find that people in Wellington want to help when they can, they want to support people if they can. You just have to ask for it.

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089629
TITLE: Stevei - Butch on Butch
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 2010s; A Thousand Voices (2014); Amazons Softball Club (Wellington); Aotearoa New Zealand; Butch on Butch (exhibition/series); Elizabeth Kerekere; Jac Lynch; Margaret Tolland; Māori; Nga Kaihanga Uku; Ngāti Porou; Nick Leggett; Paerau Corneal; Porirua; Pātaka Art and Museum; Rose Bean Simpson; Roxanne Swentzell; Suzanne Tamaki; Ta moko; The Drag Kings (Wellington); United States of America; Wellington; Wi Taepa; arts; balance; bathrooms; butch; clay; clothing; colonisation; coming out; community; fa'afafine; femininity; gay; growing up; healing; identity; indigenous peoples; language; lesbian; masculinity; parents; perception; photography; pueblos; school; sculpture; seed bank; softball; sport; support; takatāpui; tattoo; transcript online; two-spirit; wahine toa; whānau; women
DATE: 22 February 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: Stevei talks about identifying as wāhine toa, representing New Zealand in softball and creating art.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 22 February 2015
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Jac Lynch: Stevei you were one of the participants in the Butch on Butch project which involved you having a photo going up and having some words that you wrote to go with the photo. Could you let us know why you became involved in that particular project. Stevei: Well initially I was approached obviously by yourself to be a part of the exhibition, very cautiously obviously because you weren’t sure whether I identified as butch or not. When you first approached me it didn’t sit very well. I was kind of, not offended but a bit shocked just based on my own thinking and that. So what I did was then come back at you and say well as a Māori woman we’re not brought up having those words within our daily lives. We use words like wāhine toa, which talk about us being quite capable women, women who are quite able to move through male and female roles if it’s needed especially on the marae etcetera. So I came back at you and asked whether you would agree to photograph me more based on that, you know that I’m wāhine toa and for me that encompasses what people perceive butch women or butch people to be. Jac: Yeh it was kind of a lesson for me cos that was right at the start of the project, and that’s when I stopped approaching people and just put the word out so I really thank you for having done that cos that was a big learning curve for me but a well worth it anyway. Stevei are you able to tell us a bit about yourself, where you grew up, about your whanau and so on? Stevei: Yeh I’m an artist, I mostly deal with clay, Māori clay, nga kaihanga uku. Thirty-five years old and I grew up in Cannons Creek in Porirua. My whanau is from Hicks Bay in Te Araroa so Ngāti Porou and we come from a very strong family and we are a chief line. I’m one of eight children, seven left, but I’m the only child to my Mum and Dad so you can work that one out, good Kiwi family (laughs). I was a sportsperson in another life. Played softball in the (United) States for New Zealand but then retired from that and decided to follow my dream as an artist which I am doing today. Jac: What direction is your art going in? Stevei: At the moment I use clay as if it is skin so it is just a natural progression into tattooing. Ta Moko, obviously but based on my work with clay I take Pacific patterns that people might see as more Pacific island than being Māori but I look at patterns that we would have used before we got to New Zealand, you know before we got to Aotearoa, and also there are so many commonalities you know the way we put it together so doing that on the skin has always been a dream. I’ve always wanted to be a tattooist and by using the word tattoo rather than Ta Moko I won’t be put into such a tight box as well so it will allow me to be more of who I am too. You know especially being a openly gay Māori artist is a big thing, it’s not something that’s openly talked about or acknowledged so yeh, being a tattooist allows me to who I am really. Jac: How was it for you as you were growing up identifying as gay? Stevei: I probably, if I’m honest, I probably knew very early in life probably around five years old my earliest memory. When I was six my parents split up and I went to live with my Dad. He couldn’t brush my hair so my long hair got cut off and I was probably happy with that as well and my Dad would take me to Farmers and dress me in boys clothes and I loved it because I didn’t like wearing dresses because it just didn’t fit with me, you know I’m always out there playing around. What I did find I had experiences like peeing my pants because I was so afraid to go to the bathroom in places because the women would tell me off and tell me to get out of the toilets because I was boy and I was having to explain that I was a girl and it was quite terrifying to have those experiences. I used to hold on as much as I could not to have to experience that from adults. It was quite a daunting and horrible experience for me. But also there were a lot of advantages. I learnt a lot of things that I probably wouldn’t have learnt. You know my Dad was a roofer so I learnt to do a lot of things with my hands. My Mum was a strong woman too so she taught me on the other end of things to be a really strong Māori girl. Jac: Did it seem to you that your Dad was just being really supportive of you being you? Stevei: I don’t know actually, I’ve never thought of that. I know that when I finally did come out I was in my early ‘20s I had just come back from the States. He cried apparently, he thought it was his fault actually because of the way he brought me up, I did live with him. He brought me up the only way he knew, you know it wasn’t great but at the same time well it’s made me who I am today. All those experiences in your childhood and teenage years make you who you are. Jac: And in the States you were playing softball. Tell us a little but about that, cos that, well you may not identify directly as butch but that’s a bit of a butch enclave. (laughs)Stevei: Yeh, well I was actually straight when I left New Zealand. (Laughs) Well that’s what people think. But going to the States and people not knowing me and knowing who I was other than being a softballer allowed me, probably for the first time in my life, be who I wanted to be you know. Well you can’t come out if no one knows who you are. So I started seeing women and came out in the States. But I was there for two years and had to come back to New Zealand and face the gauntlet of family and friends so yeh, that was an interesting experience. But because I played softball in university and also summerball I knew a lot of girls who were gay but are married now. Because it’s such an intense environment because you’re with the same people constantly so it was interesting, a very different kind of community from New Zealand gay community which I also been part of from playing softball at the age of 12 you’re exposed to it really early and my Dad’s brother’s gay so it was never something we didn't talk about within our family. So yeh, being in the States it was an interesting experience and being in the university, well the stuff you see happen in the movies it does really happen. So you know it wasn’t really typically a butch sport in the States. So you know for a lot of girls over there, you’re 22, you're at university, you’re still really under the thumb of your family so you’re playing the game, you’re being very feminine etcetera. So it wasn’t until actually I came back to New Zealand that you started to see that with the softball players being more butch but at the same time we all use to just think we’re just athletic, we’re sporty people. We didn’t ever see that term. So for us the butch ones were the ones that played for the Amazons and those were the ones we stayed away from cos for us no way were we butch, this and that, before I came out, none of us thought we were gay. I think at one point maybe one of the team’s I played for 10 out of 14 turned out being gay so you know it was definitely a stigma thing that none of us wanted to go near at all and I think probably it shaped my thinking because I wanted to avoid that I didn’t like to be associated with being butch. It’s only very recently that I feel comfortable just being around butch women and having people think maybe I am as well. That was something I was really conscious of, maybe something I’m not that proud of but you know your environment shapes your thinking and what you think and yeh so this was a good exhibition for me I think. It meant that I needed to really step outside of my comfort zone for being part of it. Jac: Did you get feedback from friends about being in it? Stevei: It was an interesting topic to bring up with people. It was quite interesting because it made me realise too cos of my perception of myself where you think everyone thinks you’re butch because like you’re in a store and they don’t even look at you and they’re like ‘can I help you, Sir?’ and I think that’s only my size, because I’m tall and broad. So a lot of them were like ‘oh but you’re not butch’ and so it was quite nice but yeh you know it sounds ridiculous but it made me see that just because you may have that opinion that everyone thinks that you’re butch because you don’t wear girly clothes and that, that society is not that small minded or maybe I’ve just got some good friends. And they were quite supportive and thought it was really brave and they were quite interested in the concept in general. I went on an artist cross-culture exchange in Australia and I was telling some of the other female Māori artists about this exhibition and they were really interested and wanted to see photos and they really like the way I approached you about the wāhine toa and that actually started conversations within us about what we see wāhine toa as and what people perceive butch to be you know in general which were the questions you were asking in the exhibition. And they were saying ‘well what is butch?’ and these were straight women so it was a really cool way of starting dialogue and they were quite supportive and they saw the photo too and they really like it and thought that was really cool especially having been dressed up in a more traditional way than what maybe we think wāhine toa is, having been dressed by Suzanne Tamaki in costume art. Jac: Can you talk about some of the way you were dressed for it? Because you definitely had certain symbols and things with you. Stevei: When we confirmed the concept I went to Suzanne and talked to her about it and we thought ‘right we’re going to dress me up as a female warrior’. So I brought with me, I had a belt that was a made in the old weaving tradition and they would have used in the old days to put their patu etcetera and it was worn to protect your kidneys if you were attacked. So I wore that and I had some of Suzanne’s blankets on and I had a piupiu that I’ve had since I was a little kid that was given to me by my grandmother so that was really special to be able to wear. And we just had some pounamu on and bone carvings on so we just really dressed it up. It may not have been typically traditional. It was a concept and I was wearing a waistcoat so that was kind of a mihi to the whole colonised era which is one of Suzanne’s specialties. And then I had my hair up which was quite interesting because we wanted to dress me in a really strong wahine toa way which was probably one of the most feminine I’ve looked in a very long time which was amusing for Suzanne and you (laughs). Jac: Talking about your art, the expressions of masculinity and femininity in it, how does that flow for you, or does it? Stevei: I was always brought up that the world has to always be balanced so I’ve always had masculine and feminine. When I do shows or bodies of work, my work it’s always female directed but there always has to be an element of masculinity in there, whether it’s a male object or sculpture in some sense or if it’s just a more masculine female directed sculpture. So I think that’s really important and I think that clay is quite hard but is also a very soft material so I think that it is very evident in my work. Jac: What are your plans for the future? What have you got coming up? Stevei: In April, I’m off to the States again and I’m heading to Santa Fe to stay on the Santa Clara reservation which is with Pueblo native Americans. It’s under an internship with a foundation over there where you work on the land and you learn about permaculture and the traditional ways, how they planted the crops, learn about how they collected their seeds. Being on a reservation they are exempt in the States from having to use genetically modified seeds so they use the old seeds, they are growing crops that go right back and they are continuing. And the other thing is you’re not allowed to stockpile seeds over there as well, so that in itself is going to be a privilege, and I’m fixing, building adobe houses and just helping out in the community etcetera. So that’s one side of it but the other side of it is I’ll be working with an artist, Rose Bean Simpson, who’s actually the daughter of a very famous sculptor Roxanne Swentzell, and Rose is very accomplished and is becoming quite famous in herself and is in a movie that is being released this year called “A thousand voices” which talks about native American women and how they were always told by the missionaries etcetera that they were equal to men when actually before that they had a belief that they were higher than men, they were the ones that owned the land, they were the ones that worked the land, they were the ones that were out with the crops, and the animals, etcetera. So it’s just talking about those old ways and reclaiming that, which seems to be quite a big thing in the world at the moment where women are deciding that actually you know the world, and again, it’s that balance thing, the world is out of balance and to rebalance it the women have to now take control and heal it. And I know that within Māoridom that’s starting to happen and teaching our women that they’re not crazy and that they’re hearing things but that that’s their spirit and healing their spirit side and I think that’s quite important from a spirit thing. And what Rose and me are doing is creating a body of work that explores what being two-spirited is. For the native Americans what they say is that if you are gay, lesbian, transgender etcetera is that you are two-spirited and have both elements. So what we’re going to be looking at is that and Takatāpui which is the Māori word for it and how we can show that in a body of work. You’re taking a negative and a positive, yin and yang, and just exploring that and starting a conversation with clay and using metal with that. In Pueblo culture and Māori culture, so using clay and using Ta Moko and on her body of work and create a body of work, you know, creating an armour that can be worn that shows Ta Moko. And for Rose she wears her patterns on her skin which is not overly accepted, she said to me it’s not traditional in a sense but it is, so what she wants to do is show them and what we want to do is carve those patterns into the skin of these sculptures and just start huge conversations about it. Jac: That sounds really exciting. Have you got other plans beyond that, if that’s a couple of months and wear that might take you. Have you got other plans for the future? Stevei: Cos I did grow up in Porirua and I did come back to Porirua recently over Christmas. I want to come back to Porirua and start working with the community. I want to start giving back and one of the things I’ve been talking to people about is going into some of the schools and teaching them how to start seed banks. Because there is that whole thing at the moment in the primary schools where they’re teaching the kids how to cook with what they’re growing and I want to jump on board with that. But I also want to come back and keep the conversation going that me and Rose start and do something back here and something that actually Elizabeth Kerekere originally had the idea of and I think that it needs to be done is having an exhibition of female Māori artists that are Takatāpui and that are willing to say I am Takatāpui and that’s actually never happened before and there’s never been an exhibition, she saw that so it’s really her baby but it needs to be done. And I think that Paerau was interested in doing that, and yeh just working and maybe it’s something that Rose could come over for. I know that Nick Leggett who’s the Mayor in Porirua said he would be very very happy to endorse that, he was very supportive of that. And I really think that’s important particularly in a community that’s very Māori and Pacific based that Takatāpui or Fa’afafine etcetera is alive and well, it’s very open it’s very prevalent and he wants to support that. Jac: You’ve mentioned some people. Who are the influencers in your life around you right now? Who are the people? Stevei: I have quite a few influences. Working with the clay I was taught by an artist called Wi Taepa. One of my biggest influences is Paerau Corneal who was one of the first Māori artists I met who was openly gay. It’s a part of who she is. She lives her life and she loved that whole concept of wāhine toa as well. And she was the person I spoke to before I agreed to do the photographic exhibition. She did think ‘yeh there’s no place for the word butch because there’s more to it and there are layers’. Wāhine toa really does it for us. Some words you can’t explain into English, you’d have to say 10 English words to get the real meaning of it. And Suzanne Tamaki when I’ve come back to Wellington, she’s been really supportive of me coming back. She doesn’t do clay or anything like that. Just in her ideas, she’s quite brave and out there and it’s making me be a bit more brave and having her support again to do the Butch on Butch photographic exhibition, I don’t know if I would have done it maybe without her. I’m always at Pataka, I’m pat of the furniture now, so Margaret Tolland has been a big support person for me, a lot of ways personally, and a lot in my work and having me exploring more and having more faith in my work. And she was actually the one that changed my perception of butch women taking it from my naive thinking of my softball days and being around her, having been part of the Drag Kings, meeting you through Margaret and others from that troupe and other people from the community that identify as butch and realising that there is more to them than how they look, and judging people just on how they look, and I think we forget sometimes that although we don’t want people to judge us we judge others. And I always knew I was a bit of a hypocrite and she really opened my horizons introducing me to more people and it’s only been for the better really.

IRN: 838
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/butch_on_butch_george.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004334
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089628
TITLE: George - Butch on Butch
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: George Mapplebeck
INTERVIEWER: Jac Lynch
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Butch on Butch (exhibition/series); Jac Lynch; Kapiti Coast District; Queer Trans* Fight Club; Wellington; bathrooms; butch; diversity; employment; family; femme; gender identity; growing up; guidance; homophobia; identity; internet; ladies; language; loner; martial arts; masculinity; parents; photography; queer; role model; school; self defence; stereotypes; tomboy; transcript online; tumblr. com; youth
DATE: 22 February 2015
YEAR: 2015
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast George talks about being part of the Butch on Butch exhibition, wanting to be part of a conversation about female masculinity and what Butch means.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 22 February 2015
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity George: I grew up mostly on the Kapiti Coast. I have a middle class background. Both my parents are teachers. I have two younger brothers and I used to hang out with them quite a bit growing up. Jac Lynch: So as a kid, how would you describe yourself as a child? George: I think I was maybe a bit of a loner, had my own adventures, usually involving tree houses and imaginary wars with my brothers. We were quite close growing up and I guess left to do our thing a lot of the time. Not that my parents weren’t around or anything just left in our own world. Jac: And what were things like for you at school? George: Again I was probably a bit of a loner. I didn’t feel isolated but I don’t know maybe my Mum worried or something. It was more that I was in my own world doing my own imaginary things like have projects for myself like climb certain trees or gather berries or something like that around the school. Jac: Did you see yourself as being different at all from other people when you were at school? George: Not really, I thought I was pretty run of the mill at the time like I was involved in other people’s games and stuff. I wasn’t really into the mothers and fathers games or something. I thought that was a bit silly. I’d go along with it but I’d be like surely there’s more to life than this. I guess my Mum is quite an independent person as well and she’d be like you don’t have to restrict yourself to certain gender roles or whatever. ‘Girls can do anything’ and that sort of motto was her basic principle I guess. Jac: Do you see anyone as being particularly influential on you when you were younger? George: I guess my Mum and Dad, yeh, sort of shaped my interests and my approach to the world I guess. Jac: You were involved in the Butch on Butch photo exhibition. Can you tell us a little bit about why you were involved in that? George: I got involved because I wanted to be part of a conversation about what butch meant and what female masculinity could look like and how I felt about butch as a separate thing and as a thing that is related to female masculinity but it’s not necessarily the same thing. Jac: Can you tell us how you identify if you do? George: I identify as a butch woman so for me butch is an identity which is compatible with my masculinity as a female person but I think it is something I have grown into and learned more about and it is kind of continually developing as an identity for me and what that means and stuff. Jac: I remember from the narrative that you wrote to for the project to go with your portrait that you said you remembered your first identifying as a butch. George: I think I was actually quite old by the time I actually decided that because as a younger person I was seen as more aggressive than a young woman should and interested in things that a young woman shouldn’t and maybe it was just that at some point I would switch into ideal young woman mode but I was just like nah stuff that I’m going to just embrace this part of myself and this is just a part of who I am and it was just let’s move forward with being comfortable with that part of my gender. Jac: Do you have any ways of describing what that might mean in the world? George: So that might mean like I would chase my brothers around with a stick or something like that and just micro comments like oh you're so aggressive,you talk like a boy, you think like a boy, why are you such a boy, you must be a boy. And I just remember at some point I decided I wasn’t going to take that like a dis in a way it’s kind of complicated because it is a dis in that circumstance and so I think coming to terms with that and just deciding well I’m going to accept that and deal with it. Jac: And how is it for you in the world now? George: Ah pretty good. Like continually developing my own identity and how that relates to other people and how I feel about it. I have good butch friends who you know we kind of talk about it sometimes in our own special way. Jac: What is that special way? What’s that look like? George: I don’t know. We might go for a swim or something and hang out and just talk about stuff and what’s on top kind of thing and what stuff bothers us on like a gender level as well. Like going to a restaurant and people are like hey ladies and stuff like that. I know there are more normatively gendered women that are bothered by being ‘lady-ised’ but it just seems so unlikely. You’re just kind of like ‘what?’. Jac: That’s sort of an example of getting seen as something you don’t really identify with. Does it affect you in other ways like in work or in looking for jobs or those sort of areas? George: It’s hard to tell cos you can’t read people’s minds. I mean the work I do now is stereotypically butch I guess and it’s in a male dominated field. So yeh I don’t know. Sometimes it is hard to know how people are reading you whether they are seeing you as a masculine woman or that you’re a dude or something else or you get ladyised. So you don’t always know how people are going to react so you just have to play to what are. Like I don’t say no I’m a lady when people think I’m a dude. So i just kind of roll with it while they figure it out, hopefully they don’t get mad when they finally figure it out. Jac: Have you ever had any bad experiences with it? George: I’ve had some sort of strange bathroom things. Where people are like ‘this is the ladies’ but nothing physical just a sort of bad vibe from people. Someone yelled at me in the supermarket when he mistook me for a dude and I turned out not to be and he was like ‘you tricked me’. I was like I haven’t done anything. Me and my friend were like this is weird but funny. Jac: Does any of it come across as a homophobic thing for you, questioning you like that? George: Yeh but I don’t know. I feel like I haven’t had that much homophobia that I’ve actually dealt with. I guess street harassment. I guess I wouldn’t say more than other queer people that I know. I guess that’s because I’m sort of tall and tough looking (laughs). Jac: (laughs) That must be it. You say you meet up with other butches occasionally. Have you actively sought out friendships with butches or is that something that’s just come into your life? George: It’s something that’s just come into my life and I really value those connections I guess. Because there’s not that many, if any. And other butches might feel differently about their identity and their approaches to that. I’ve learnt to have a sensitivity to that as well. I guess anyone butch or otherwise who kind of gets it is kind of cool as well. There’s been lots of awesome femmes who have talked to me about stuff, told me things or whatever. Jac: Do you think there are stereotypes? George: Yes, I’d say there are. I think because butch is quite a visible thing it tends to be a stereotype in itself. And I think that you can embody a stereotype in a way where you are being yourself as well. Jac: Having been in the exhibition did you find that anyone reacted to you being in it or did they give you feedback about being in it? George: Most people I think were pretty excited about the project and they liked what I wrote about it and I thought that was nice. And I think going on from it I’d like to keep those conversations going in the community and among other butches about what it means. There were a couple of us who were like yeh butch yeh and others who were a little bit more reticent and didn’t want to own it as much and it’s like ‘just me’ kind of thing. and it would be cool if there were people who were like ‘you’re ok, kind of thing, you’re actually awesome, you’re a special unicorn (laughs) keep going with it’. Jac: I’ve got a copy of what you wrote George and wouldn’t mind it if you do us a favour and read some of it out. It was really important that people were able to write about themselves as well as having their photo up. Are you ok about reading from it? George: YepJac: Cool, thanks, do you see the butch identity influencing how you will be as you get older in any way? How you are in relationships or what you dream of doing? George: I think I would like to grow into a well-adjusted butch, I don’t know, I think that it’s a thing that you can maybe not fully fulfil in terms of the values I just read out well I think that’s aspirational because I can’t be all of those things all the time but I think it would be nice if I was. Jac: It’s nice to be able to identify the things you want to draw on as being part of you. George: Going easy and remembering I’m still like a human and I think it’s a good positive thing and hopefully I’ll grow into one of those. Jac: Do you have role models? George: Jac Lynch (laughs)Jac: Get away with you (laughs). George: I don’t know. Like some of the role models I’ve had have been just other masculine people whether they’re men or whether they’re transguys or whether they’re butches, just the way they relate to people, how they treat other people. Lots of just cool people. Jac: Are there things that concern you about how the queer communities are? George: No, not really. I think the queer communities, like it’s such a big and diverse group of people that we’re not going to get along all the time and we’re not going to be accepting of all of ourselves at once, even though it would be nice. I’d like to be part of working out that stuff sometimes instead of throwing up our hands and saying why can’t we just get along. I’d hang out with the people that are good to me and hopefully be good to them back. Jac: If you were giving some guidance to young people coming through who might identify as butch what sort of thing would you say? George: I’d say ‘go easy on yourself, and you’re all right, you’re ok, you’re your own special person and if butch is the thing for you then that’s cool and let’s talk about that’. I don’t know if I have all the answers to what it means either, let’s work it out. Jac: Do you see any particular pressures for young people who have a butch identity or coming through into the queer communities, or just being themselves in the world. George: Yeh I think there are pressures both from the queer community to identify one way or another and in the straight world who prefer if straight and cis gendered. I think that young people today have a wider vocabulary of how they want to identity and that butch needs to be a part of that as well. There’s not a prescription for how to be I think. With things like Tumblr and stuff there’s a proliferation of different people’s identities and that being a lot more open and visible and accessible to a lot more people so you don’t have to go to a certain bar to meet the other butches, they’re kind of already there. Jac: (laughs) where are they? On Tumblr and online? George: Yeh they’re online, on the internet. Maybe that’s advice as well. Find the internet. Jac: Would there be any cautions around that? George: Ah no (laughs) Yeh learn how to delete your inbox, browser history so if you are in a place where your parent’s would be mad if they found out what you are looking at. Jac: Do you belong to any particular groups around the place? George: Groups? Not particularly. I do do the Queer Trans* Fight Club thing which we’re hoping to reboot at some point. Jac: Tell us about that. George: So it’s for queer and trans* people to get together and learn martial arts skills and self defence techniques. It’s kind of like meeting up with people and having a fun wrestle and then going home. Basically you get to choose what level of activity you’re into. If you don’t want to get hit in the head then no one hits you in the head. And if you don’t want to wrestle then you don’t have to and we’ll do something else. We’ve had lots of different people come and share their specific martial art technique with us. We’ve had ju jitsu and boxing which I think some of us have had a go at outside of the group. And we’ve also had kendo, kung fu, pro wrestling, karate, tae kwon do, and other stuff. Other really experienced and skilled self defence people come and show us how they do their thing and we’re like, oh ok and you learn something every time. Jac: That must feel pretty special with that particular group that you’re working with, queer and trans* and having other people come in and teaching you things. George: Yeh we don’t claim any expertise or anything so we’re open for people to come in and learn and teach. We’ve had lots of really cool people get involved as well. I think having trans* in the name has helped transpeople get involved as well. More than any other queer group I’ve been in having that in the title has made it more accessible at least.

IRN: 420
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_criminal_cases.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004056
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089350
TITLE: Criminal cases
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1950s; Alison Laurie; Aotearoa New Zealand; Charles Mackay; Christchurch; Gay Line Wellington Trust; Juliet Hulme; Pauline Parker; Queer History 101; Rule Foundation; Walter D'Arcy Cresswell; Wellington; Whanganui; courts; crime; hate crime; homophobia; law; transcript online
DATE: 11 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison highlights some queer-related criminal cases in New Zealand.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 1 January 2014
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Hi. I'm Dr Alison Laurie. I was the Gender and Women's Studies Programme Director at Victoria University of Wellington here in New Zealand for many years. I'm a writer, an oral historian, and a lesbian and gay activist. Today I'm going to be looking at crime cases as they've involved lesbian and gay people in this country. There's always been an association of homosexuality and crime. Male homosexual acts were considered criminal; lesbians were often considered criminal by association. There's been that idea of criminality involved in it. What I'm more interested in here is local cases where lesbians and gays have themselves been victims of crimes, and where that often hasn't been considered to be the case, particularly by the media, and sometimes by the courts. A very significant local case was that of Wanganui's Mayor, Charles Evan MacKay. He was an important mayor. He strongly supported the arts. He was a popular man. However, in May, 1920, he was arrested for the attempted murder of the poet Walter D'Arcy Cresswell, who was homosexual. It was alleged that MacKay shot Cresswell for threatening to expose MacKay's homosexuality. The defense argued that he suffered from homosexual monomania, having made efforts to cure himself and consulted doctors and metaphysicians. MacKay was found guilty and he was sentenced to 15 years imprisonment. This case resulted in widespread anti-homosexual feeling in Wanganui, and prejudice against the Sarjeant Art Gallery which MacKay had helped found, and it also influenced how Edith Collier's work was received. Cresswell was later taken up by the Bloomsbury set when he went to England in 1930, following the publication of his autobiography The Poet's Progress, which didn't actually mention anything about the Wanganui affair. So, that's an interesting aspect of him. It's a question of why he attempted to blackmail MacKay; how come that situation emerged; what it was that he thought he was doing. Some think that there was evidence of political connections who had suggested that he do this. Whatever was the case, it really destroyed MacKay. He served his time in prison then left the country and died overseas. So, that's a significant case. Another interesting case is the 1935 Mareo case, and that began the connection of lesbianism with murder in New Zealand. Eric Mareo was convicted of killing his wife Thelma because of her lesbian relationship with Freda Stark. And lesbianism was depicted as part of a loose-living theatrical world likely to result in jealousy and murder. Later in her life, Freda Stark said that her sexual relationship with Thelma was the most important relationship of her life, and that it had begun, in fact, before Thelma had married Eric Mareo, that she'd married him because the theatre company had collapsed, and that they continued their relationship often when he was at work. During the court case the relationship was given as the motive for Eric murdering Thelma. He did so by administering doses of sedative to her and she died. The newspapers of the time reported the case sensationally, and they headlined the phrase, " Abnormal Girl." Freda Stark later said that when the newspapers were at their worst she could not go into Queen Street as " people would recognize me because of the pictures in the paper," calling out, " There she is!" and following her. And when she went into a shop " there'd be people waiting outside for me to come out." The jury found Eric Mareo guilty of murder and he was sentenced to death, but after several appeals his sentence was eventually reduced to life imprisonment. Subsequently, people have tried to exonerate Mareo, though I think it's fairly clear that he was aware of their relationship and that that was a motivation for him to attempt to murder her. But it was a very sensational case and it certainly drew the attention of people to this connection with lesbianism and murder. This theme reemerges 20 years later in 1954 when Juliet Hulme, aged 15, and Pauline Parker, aged 16, killed Honora Parker, Pauline's mother, in Victoria Park, Christchurch. This was sensationalized because of the ages of the girls. They were described by some of the media as the world's worst murderers, which was extraordinary in a time when we've seen mass murder and things of that kind. And they were depicted as lesbians by both the prosecution and the defense, with the prosecution calling them " dirty-minded girls," and the defense saying that they suffered from folie a deux because lesbianism was a pathological condition symptomatic of communicated insanity. So, that was another case with a connection of lesbianism and murder. Those two girls were sentenced to five years imprisonment. They were imprisoned actually at Her Majesty's pleasure but were released after five years, in 1959, and have subsequently led quite blameless lives. There were other mentions in the newspaper; there's an interesting report in 1955 in the year after this case, where the New Zealand Pictorial reports " gangs of homosexuals in Auckland living together for the sake of perversion. You can see these warped-brained men – and women too – wandering about the streets or sitting idly in night cafes. Auckland has too many of them. Homosexuals have a strict code of ethics all of their own. They fight among themselves like Kilkenny cats. For this reason, a group of homosexuals is always controlled by the queen bee whose word is absolutely final. Others in the sect are " Marthas" who dress as women, " Arthurs" who adopt the normal male role, and " Butches" who stand in either way. Homosexuals, ambisexuals, lesbians and the like are largely only a degrading menace, however undesirable to themselves." So, clearly this kind of depiction is one of criminality; people of whom you could expect anything of them. Now, other cases: an earlier case, in 1944 a 19-year-old New Zealand soldier was acquitted of the murder of a 25-year-old American soldier because he claimed that the American had made homosexual advances to him. Then in 1960, Roy Jackson, a waiter at the Codoro Coffee Bar in Auckland, which was a meeting place for both camp men and women – lesbians and gay men – was killed when he fell from the deck of the Whangaroa, which was docked at Napier, after being assaulted by two seamen who were acquitted of manslaughter. Roy Jackson had triked down to Napier to see his lover who was working on the ship, and as he was trying to get onto the ship he was thrown by the two seamen onto the dock and killed. The judge commented it was " stretching things a bit to say that it was unlawful for the accused to remove Jackson from the ship, as after all, it was their home." The Auckland camp community took up a collection for his burial. That was an important case in 1960. But, the acquittal sent a signal that killing homosexuals might not result in a conviction. These cases foreshadowed the 1964 Hagley Park case where six youths aged between 15 and 17 years were acquitted on a charge of manslaughter. The prosecution alleging they had gone to Hagley Park in Christchurch with the purpose of finding a queer and bashing him. Their homosexual victim, Charles Aberhart from Blenheim, died from his injuries. The youths, claiming he'd made a homosexual approach to them, and horrified by this they'd accidentally beaten him to death. These cases demonstrated the possible consequences of any form of homosexuality, and the verdicts were consistent with the 1967 acquittal of Doreen Davis for the murder of Raewyn Petley, and this is a very famous case. In November, 1966, nursing Sister Raewyn Joy Petley, aged 40, of the Royal New Zealand Nursing Corps, was found dead in her bed with a deep wound in her neck at the Royal New Zealand Air Force Base at Whenuapai. Another critically ill nurse was in Auckland Hospital being treated for an overdose of drugs. This nurse, Sister Doreen Ellen Davis, aged 30, was tried for Petley's murder, at Auckland, in March, 1967. The prosecution alleged that Davis had cut Petley's throat with a scalpel and left the room via the window, and drove back to her quarters where she took an overdose of barbiturates, her motive for the murder being conflict in their lesbian relationship. Davis was defended by Kevin Ryan, the defense lawyer, and denied all charges, insisting that Petley had cut her own throat. There are some suggestions that the military may have tidied the women's rooms before calling the police in arranging Davis' defense, as she was going to be charged in a civilian court, and that they may have hoped for a verdict of suicide as it would be less damaging than murder. Petley served with the Royal New Zealand Nursing Corps from 1954, moving to the Whenuapai Air Force Base in February, '64. Davis joined the Nursing Corps in '62 and met Petley in '66 at the Hobsonville Base where their relationship developed. Another nurse testified that because Davis visited Petley at night she felt disgusted and reported them. Consequently, Davis was to be transferred to Wigram. The prosecution produced two unsigned letters alleging that Davis wrote to Petley, " I do love that smile, darling, more and more each time we meet. And please don't ever deceive, darling. You mean too much to me and I to you." The defense argued that Davis was befriended by a woman outwardly kind and sympathetic, but inwardly a hunting lesbian. Davis testified that Petley was generous and kind at first, however, she said that, " Before I knew it, Raewyn was in bed with me. I got a fright at first. She looked different. She said she wanted me. She tried to kiss me, and did. She looked like a man, not a woman. I finally gave in to Raewyn." And on the night of Petley's death Davis claimed Petley tried to prevent her from leaving the room. " The look I'd seen on Raewyn's face was more domineering than I'd ever seen before. I told her just to leave me alone, and I went to the door. Sister Petley was looking at me directly. She was sitting up in bed. The next thing I saw was this knife. I saw a lot of blood and that cut on her neck." So the defense lawyer, Ryan, argued that even if Davis had killed Petley she did so in a state of automatism brought on by the shock of Petley's lesbian advances. And Petley was described as a congenital, or essential, lesbian – a smiling depressive and a hunting lesbian. And Davis was portrayed as an innocent seduced by Petley, and she was found not guilty of that crime.

IRN: 700
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/a_thousand_toilet_ladies.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004077
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089371
TITLE: A Thousand Toilet Ladies by Wai Ho
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Wai Ho
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: A Thousand Toilet Ladies; Aotearoa New Zealand; China; Wai Ho; Wellington; butch; cooking; ethnicity; family; food; friends; gender identity; growing up; identity; labels; parents; racism; school; sexuality; stereotypes; teaching; transcript online; violence; youth
DATE: 1 December 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Wai Ho reads A Thousand Toilet Ladies.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 1 January 2014
TEXT: 'Excuse me! These are the women's toilets.' The woman uses that too-loud tone white people use when they're talking to someone coloured. As if the darker your skin is, the worse your hearing. A part of me wants to say 'Solly solly, I no Engrish,' and push past her. Instead I say 'Yeah, I know.' The woman takes another look at this pre-pubescent Chinese boy incorrectly in the women's loos, and sees a masculine-looking Chinese girl in her mid-teens instead.'Oh oh, I'm so sorry,' she flusters, breaking my gaze.'It's okay,' I assure her. I have this interaction on a semi-regular basis. The toilet door with a blobby stick person wearing a cape, is actually a gauntlet through which I'm challenged every few weeks.'Miriam! Why do you like those Samoan boys?! Ai yah! They are so naughty, and not good at school,' Mum intones, folding the washing and yelling to the kitchen from the lounge where my sister is. 'And you should concentrate on study, not have boyfriend, you are too young!'I roll my eyes at my sister, just before she huffs out the kitchen, not bothering to respond to one of my mother's many commentaries on life.'Mum! You can't say those kinds of things, they're just racist stereotypes. You know all the stuff that gets said about Chinese people; that we're Triads and people smugglers, we eat cats and dogs, all drive BMWs and are good at maths and table tennis,' I say, setting down a cup of Earl Grey next to her neat piles of washing. 'And Miriam is sixteen, Mum, plenty old enough.''Wa? You are good at maths, and we like to play table tennis on Sundays. And why can eat chicken and baby lambs but not dog? Silly gwai lo, dog is like steak.' Mum pauses, blowing on her tea. 'You know, Hannah, when we ate food that was too hot, your Paw Paw would blow air in our mouth to cool it down.' She looks thoughtful, then jumps almost without pause to the previous topic. 'No, sixteen too young for boyfriend! Must study harder. Hannah you know, when you marry, you must marry a white man,' she looks at me pointedly, one arm still within an out-turned cardigan. Miriam pulls a quizzical face at me. She's entered the conversational hub in the lounge and is ignoring mum, signalled by white earphones in her ears. I know Mum doesn't notice, but I can see those earphones aren't attached to anything. It's a tactic that works, though. Maybe I should try it.'And you!' she says, waving a rumpled pair of pants at my brother, who's behind Mum's clothes towers in the hope she won't see him, 'You stop always play video game, that's why you are so stupid. Never study. You go study!''But I've nearly got ten thousand!' complains my brother, still playing, the tinny video game music joining his protest.'No need ten thousand, what for? Only silly monkeys jumping on crocodile! Go study now!' she orders, pulling the game from my brother and sitting on it.'Ah ahahhaa Muummmm! You killed me!' yells Caleb, waving his arms. He glares at her before stalking out. The sad, mechanical death tune from under my Mum's bum, of a monkey being eaten by a crocodile affirms his remark.'Yes, the white man is better than the Chinese. The Chinese is only think about money! And the white man does not hit their wives,' Mum concludes, looking satisfied by the way she's snapping a pillow case flat. Pillow cases conform nicely to her view of how the world should be.'Arrggh!' yells my sister and stomps out. I think I should suggest earplugs to her, rather than earphones.'Muuuum,' I groan, 'You've been watching too many rom coms. White men hit their wives too, that stuff's chronic in this country within all ethnicities. And I told you anyway, I'm not getting married. I like girls.''Hmm,' she grunts, 'I don't understand you all. My children are like foreigner.'I'm sitting at small formica table with faded geometric shapes that look like they're hiding from me. I'm with Aunty Ida, who isn't really our aunty. She's a family friend of our parents, and we've always grown up calling all our parents’ friends Aunty and Uncle so and so. I'm helping her peel the mountain of potatoes and kumara that will be turned into the carb component of the quintessential pakeha roast.'You know, when we first came here from Penang in the 70s, we didn't know what to expect. I thought about hills and sheep and old English buildings like Cambridge or Oxford. I didn't know what to think when we got here, we were so shocked when all the shops just closed at five o'clock!' she says, quartering a large kumara. 'And they didn't even open on the weekend. What were we meant to eat late at night?! No shops open, no night markets and food stalls. We came here because we think more civilised and progressive, but then we see all the bland colourless food and think, oh dear.''Well you must have got on okay with the food, Aunty Ida,' I say, dangling my legs from the plastic stool I'm on, 'I mean, now you have a takeaway shop that sells roast meals.''Yes yes yes,' Aunty Ida says, chuckling. 'First we have Chinese takeaway shop because we think our food is more tasty and the Kiwi will like much more than yellow and brown food. But now we have roast shop because four item on menu much easier than seventy five dish! Hahahaha. Actually, roast is very good. I can see why Kiwi like.'Us kids are bunched close to each other round the dining table. Dad is pacing and glowering as he reads our report cards. It's like an unhappy family dinner, but without the dinner. Mum is perched on a stool on the other end of the table, on a muttering monologue about how Kiwi teachers are too nice, and they say a child's work is good even when it's not. 'How are they to improve if the teacher will not even tell them their work is bad and they have to do better?' she complains to no one in particular. Miriam looks like she's imitating those painted people who busk on Cuba St, pretending to be statues, and then they move suddenly and scare you. Well, they scare little kids, not me. Caleb is making tiny sculptures, which look like little pointy curly buildings, out of a blob of blu-tack I tried to stick to one of the ends of his dreadlocks without him knowing. He's actually trying to ignore Dad, but I can see it's not working. He squashes his whole city of buildings with a clenched fist every time Dad says something about him. I'm trying to transport myself somewhere else. I fail, so I switch to imagining dark, angry cartoon clouds with lightning strikes over Dad's head. Then comic symbols in a thought bubble, for the swear words he's probably thinking, upon reading my brother’s report card. I offered to change the grades for Caleb using those scratch-on letters you can get from the stationery shop. I doctored many of my friend's School Certificate results to save them from the hidings they'd have got otherwise. Works a treat. No one suspects. But my brother thinks it's silly that we're expected to get all A's when B's are fine. I think so too, but then I did get all A's.'We came here to give you a better life, a better chance, more opportunities,' yells my Dad, waving the report card in my brother's face. 'And what do you do?!'I'm about to point out that what my Dad has just asked is a ‘rhetorical question’: one that isn't really meant to be answered, but is stated to make a point. We learnt that in English last week. But then I think now is probably not the best time.'You waste your time skating and drawing pictures. Pictures!!!' Dad pauses and stomps round in a semi-circle a few times, then stops, planting himself over my brother. 'You must study hard, SLAP, get good grades so you can get into university and get a good job. SLAP. The Kiwi can waste their time, SLAP, draw pictures, SLAP, play at each other’s house, SLAP, party all weekend. SLAP. You cannot! SLAP SLAP SLAP. We are Chinese! We must work harder than them to get the same opportunities!' Dad yells, punctuating each sentence on my brother's head. Caleb holds himself stiffly, trying to ignore the slaps, then shudders, like a dog's pelt shakes when you lightly tickle just one of its hairs. He forcefully stands, his chair toppling backward, and shoves Dad away from us. The blinds make an agitated metallic declaration as Dad flounders onto them. The room inhales into itself and freezes. The colours ping off each other, and the straight lines seem almost too sharp, cutting at my eyes. Tense and alert, almost anticipating the rain of rage that will unleash from Dad at my brother’s physical defiance. Growth spurts must happen suddenly, as Caleb is now the same height as Dad. I can see my brother’s fists clenched as tightly as the words that spit out his mouth. 'I don't even want to go to university! That's what you've always wanted. And we're not even really Chinese! We were born here, unlike yous!'Miriam is curled into herself like a shell, sitting on the edge of a table, sobbing softly. I put my arm around her, shielding her from the prickliness of Dad's angry hands. My brother storms out, a vibrating ball of barely controlled fury. Words thump noisily through my arteries, past my ears, and choke, making lumps in my throat.'It's different now, Dad. We don't just have to make money. We can choose to do other stuff. You're suffocating us with your Chinese rules,' I tell the floor. 'You say you came here to give us opportunities, but you just want to make us do whatever you want,' I finish quietly, not meeting his confused eyes.'And you can't hit kids in New Zealand anymore. It's illegal!' shoots my sister, quickly, as she hunches back into herself like a poked snail. The blinds are playing a discordant harmony with the furious hum of thick silence. Dad looks strangely about to implode, and at the same time, deflated, like a saggy, wrinkly balloon. Mum is pinched and quiet. The blinds finish their crude song and I take my sister's coiled hand, slowly shuffling her out of the room with me. My parents’ ascending tirade in duet starts up and follows us out. 'No respect for elders... learning bad habits from the Kiwi children... no discipline, teachers should be allowed to hit pupils, too relax, must follow Chinese tradition.' Nothing we all haven't heard so many times before. I pull back the hood of my hoodie as I step inside to a spicy, fragrant warmth. Pad Thai, Bee Bung or Pho - so many choices. I see the lady from the toilets. She’s two people ahead of me at the counter. Bah, why does she have to be here? Usually only Asians come here. The hot butch girl, the whole reason I always come to this place even though it's further from the bus stop, saunters out from the kitchen and takes over from the guy at the counter. She has this cute kind of bowlcut, but in an edgy, ironic way. And she's real big and solid, strong looking, like she could wrestle bears. If people wrestled bears. This time I really am going to talk to her, not just order my meal. The toilet lady is taking ages.'D o e s t h i s d i s h h a v e M S G ?' she enunciates slowly and loudly, while gesturing wildly at a shiny picture on the menu.'No MSG,' says Hot Butch Girl, cutting the words with her dismissive smirk.'You know, you really should have these menus in English,' Toilet Lady says, arching an eyebrow condescendingly, 'After all, you are here in New Zealand.''The English menu's on the other side,' Hot Butch Girl says, taking the menu from her and turning it over. 'And seeing as we are in Aotearoa New Zealand,' Hot Butch Girl continues, firmly holding Toilet Lady's no-longer-arched gaze, 'Exactly how fluent is your te reo Maori?'A number of things happen quickly. The older guy bustles out the front, rapid-fires a bunch of words and arm waves at Hot Butch Girl, scolding her, who then, chastened, stalks into the kitchen. And all the while, Toilet Lady is doing huffing and blowing, and waving her arms too, not like Older Shop Guy was, but kind of like if you were doing a very gentle and timid chicken dance. Toilet Lady orders a Beef Pho. It suddenly feels too warm as I try not to flinch talking to Older Shop Guy. He looked all too much like my Dad, when Dad is mad at us. Barbed eyes and unpredictable hands. I order a Bee Bung from Older Shop Guy, double checking, as I always do, that there won't be any coriander in it. Our meals arrive quickly as usual, steaming happily in their colourful plastic bowls. I eye Toilet Lady over my food, and I notice that she looks much older than I thought she was. I feel a milli-second of compassion for her before I recall the toilet incident and how rude she was to Hot Butch Girl. Toilet Lady is looking around for the soy sauce that is usually on the table along with the chillis and other condiments, and not finding what she's after, eyes up my bottle. I take a deep breathe on my insides, recalling that I have been trying to be nicer to old people. Grudgingly, I reach over and give her mine.'Oh, thank you,' she says, her smile crinkling her eye corners. 'What a polite young man,' she tells the soy sauce being poured into her broth, and glaring in the direction of the kitchen. Toilet Lady doesn't recognise me from earlier. She probably thinks all Asians look the same. I suppose that's kind of okay in a way. I know my mum thinks lots of white people all look the same and she often can't really tell them apart. Or maybe it's an old people thing; maybe they just stop noticing stuff. I've finished my Bee Bung and have started reading, when a voice says to me, 'Why don't you like coriander?'It's Hot Butch Girl. I put down my book, but it catches the spoon sticking out of my empty bowl, which then catapults out and knocks over the chilli sauce. I flounder around setting things back up while she watches and tries not to laugh. I decide to pretend that wee slapstick incident just didn't happen.'I've never liked it, makes me gag. My dad and brother can't eat it either. I mean, I wish I liked it, people seem to like it.' I realise I'm rambling so I stop. It's nerve-wracking trying to think of cool things to say. I can't think of anything.'What are you reading?' she asks, looking from the chilli-sauce to my book.'Sandman. I'm up to book three and there are ten I think. Though I think Neil Gaiman is working on a prequel.'She picks it up, looking at the pictures. People call them comics because they have pictures but they're actually graphic novels. I take the opportunity to look at her. White plastic smiling crossbones dangle from her ears, and I like how her T-shirt stretches across her shoulders.'Hey I liked what you said to that old lady. I wish I could think of witty things to say on the spot'. My ears go hot as I feel back to all the times I wish I'd said something to Dad, or done something, rather than letting my brother or sister take the heat, or slaps.'Yeah, you get a bit of that working here,' she says as her eyes flick to Toilet Lady's empty seat. There is an awkward pause between us.'I better get back to work,' she says, glancing over at the kitchen, 'Before Uncle has another go at me.''Oh, yeah, choice. Um... Hey, I could lend you the first Sandman if you wanted to read them, they're really cool.'She stops and looks at me for a few seconds longer than people usually look at other people. She makes it hard for thoughts to get to my brain.'Sure,' she smiles, 'Bring it next time. I usually finish at nine if you wanted to get a bubble tea somewhere after.''Oh, ah, yeah cool, that would be awesome,' I tell the apron knot on the back of her waist as she walks away. She waves over her shoulder without turning round. I place my book carefully back into my bag and head out into the raucous weather. The door tinkles shut behind me. People are huddled like shuffling rocks waiting for the bus. A giant grin is plastered over my face even as the wind tries to take my hood off. I don't even care if a thousand toilet ladies think I'm a boy. © Wai Ho, republished with permission

IRN: 687
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/marriage_equality_conference_nigel_studdart.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004084
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089378
TITLE: Nigel Studdart - Marriage Equality Conference
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Nigel Studdart
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Close Up (television); Community Law (Wellington); Louisa Wall; Marriage Equality Conference (2012); Nigel Studdart; Northland; Pompallier Catholic College; Richard Stanton; TVNZ (Television New Zealand); church; discrimination; employment; family; free speech; human rights; marriage; marriage equality; media; parenting; queer straight alliance (QSA); religion; school; suicide; teaching; television; transcript online; youth
DATE: 1 December 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Community House/Press Hall, 80 Willis Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Nigel Studdart talks about the impact of losing his teaching position at Pompallier Catholic College during the Marriage Equality debate. This interview was recorded during the Marriage Equality Conference held at Community House in Wellington. The transcript of this podcast was generously sponsored by James Barron.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 1 January 2014
TEXT: This transcript was generously sponsored by James Barron. It has been lightly edited for clarity Nigel Studdart: My background is I started out as a cardiac research scientist back in Liverpool. I've got an Honor's Degree in Science and I was in the middle of a PhD when I took off sailing and left for 20 years, and immigrated to New Zealand five years ago. I went back into teaching and was teaching at a Catholic school. I teach science, I teach chemistry and I teach biology. The incident occurred when the principal of the school, Richard Stanton, wrote a newsletter entitled " Keeping Marriage Sacred." The Catholic school has a right under Catholic doctrine to have an opinion on marriage. I didn't argue with that opinion on marriage. I disagree with it, but that's my personal opinion and I would not have tried to in any way influence the school's opinion. Where I believe the principal went too far, in my opinion, was when he extended that argument in terms of gay parents. And what he in effect said there was that gay parents were in some way lesser parents than any other form of parent. Now, as a teacher with students that I knew had gay parents, and also with gay students in the school, for me that was fundamentally wrong. It was also a case of free speech for my students. I didn't get involved in it at first; I got involved in it as it developed, when he had in effect said to me in an email that he wanted to encourage discussion about this. But when the discussion was not going in the way and the direction that he wanted to go in he then chose to try and shut that discussion down. Now, if we do one thing in the school, and the one thing we must do well, surely it's teaching our children to have an opinion and to question an opinion and to engage in constructive debate. Regardless of your religious, ethical or moral beliefs, I believe everybody has a right to that debate, and I think what the school was doing there, from my opinion, was shutting that debate down. To me it's fundamentally wrong. That then of course occurred the week before the first vote on Louisa's Bill, and as a result – I mean it was very naïve of them, I think, to publish that in a newsletter on the Friday the week before the Bill and not really expect that there would be publicity – he then went ahead and suspended me when the students were planning gay protests at the school assembly. They were planning this protest to wear a rainbow ribbon at the school assembly in support of other students. Again, to me that seemed like a very good idea in that it was showing an inclusiveness. Now, the school is a Marist school and one of the fundamental ideas at that school is tolerance, so to me the students were showing incredible Marist values and they were showing a real – how can I put it? – empathy almost beyond their age in that they were actually really welcoming students into the school and gay parents. And I thought to actually take that away was something that was very wrong. What the rainbow ribbon symbolized to me and what it symbolized to the students was support for those gay students and gay parents. But more than that, if we look at the rainbow it's made up of seven colors. White light comes from those seven colors. Each color is critical to a contribution to that light. Now, just as every race and every creed contributes to our society so does every sexual gender and transgender contribute to our society. Without those colors we do not have white light. Without light we have no transparency, and without transparency we can't see what's going on in the world. And I think that openness to truth is the way that New Zealand education needs to go. What I find quite amazing is the second newsletter he wrote was one which was Diligere Verum, which was to " Love for the Truth." Well to me surely this is loving the truth, everybody's truth, and listening to everybody's truth and giving them the opportunity for personal expression. Gareth: This situation created quite a lot of media attention, both locally and nationally. What impact did that have on you? Nigel: Quite a large impact. I mean, again, it was a real explosion of attention. It had started when my daughters had contacted the media, and as had other students in the school. I was actually phoned for permission for one of my daughters to appear on Close Up. By that stage it had got quite frightening for many of the students just in terms of all the attention, but also they were worried about repercussions at the school. When I was then suspended on that morning, which was the morning which I appeared on Close Up, I then decided that I would go on Close Up and appear because I knew that the students were afraid to do so and they didn't want to put themselves in a situation where they could possibly face some victimization from anybody, either other students or anybody else. So I think it was important that their voice was heard and that was the only way I could see of doing it. I must admit I didn't give it a huge amount of thought before I did it. I just knew it was the right thing to do, and sometimes I believe we have to go with that; we have to go away from what we should do or what we shouldn't do and just fundamentally bring things down to: Is this the right thing to do or is it the wrong thing to do? For me to support those students as their teacher was fundamentally my job above any other. Gareth: What effect did that media attention have on you and your life? Nigel: In many ways positive effects. I had incredible support from the gay and lesbian transgender community, lots of people contacting me, some real heartfelt messages from people who'd been in Catholic schools and other schools and their teachers had been afraid to say something and they felt excluded, they felt isolated, and I think it gave a lot of people strength that somebody had been prepared to say something. You know, I didn't even really think all that through. My family were incredibly proud of me for doing it and I think it strengthened our bond as a family. We're the sort of family who sits down to dinner every night or sits down to breakfast and we talk, and this whole situation arose from a family discussion. I'd gotten home on a Friday evening and we were chatting as a family about this, and we'd read the school newsletter and we were all appalled. You know, we're a fairly liberal family: I've travelled all over the world, my wife is a midwife and is used to working with all sorts of different communities, and my kids are really sort of open to ideas; so it wasn't just me, it was my family, and this was an initiative from all of us. And as a result, whilst it has had some financial impact, obviously, on my family, that I lost my job over it, which is quite saddening, it also had an impact in terms of the fact that I was on a scholarship, which means I may yet have to pay that scholarship back in terms of teacher education, in terms of my registration as a teacher because I'm at the end of a two-year program and to my knowledge the principal is unlikely to be signing off on my provisional registration at this point. So, quite a lot of impacts in that way, but as a family I think we're stronger for it. And I'm proud of what I did and I think it's something that had to be done. It comes back to the WikiLeaks things doesn't it, you know, with people like Julian Assange? And I think it's critical that we galvanize and we support the whistleblower in society because ultimately there is nothing that should happen in a school or a classroom, excluding personal or private issues for students, which should not be open to public scrutiny or question. And I think to have this sort of newsletter that was to my mind certainly just wrong, it should not be there. It may be Richard Stanton's personal opinion, and if it is well he's entitled to it just like I'm entitled to my personal opinion, but I do not believe that a school newsletter is the place to put it. The emotional safety of the students in that school, let alone the physical safety of those students in that school, means that we have to be all inclusive. As a Catholic school it accepts non-Catholic students, it's an integrated school, it's funded by the taxpayer, the buildings are funded, sure, by the proprietor, which is a Catholic church, but my salary as a teacher was paid for by the taxpayer. We have a responsibility to all of those students, not just to the Catholic students, but especially to the Catholic students and their special character, but we have a responsibility to be honest and transparent with all of those students. Gareth: Prior to this incident were there things like a Queer Straight Alliance at the school or anything where gay, lesbian, and transgender students were kind of openly out? Nigel: No. No. I mean, the other chap who appeared on the Close Up programs, Zac Klavs, a really nice guy, I think addressed that to a certain extent that yes, there was a little bit of prejudice but no more than you would expect in any high school. Anybody who is slightly different in any way.... You remember, I'm sure, what it was like being a teenager – everybody wants to be exactly the same and if you're ever so slightly different in any way you try and hide it, you know? No, there wasn't a Queer Straight Alliance, and up until that point I would have said the school was a really inclusive place. You know, the staff there are superb; they really are, they're excellent. I think what's happened has polarized the school and I think that's not a good thing. I think now the school needs a Queer Straight Alliance and I think it needs that so that the students are supported, because whenever you get a division like this.... Before that really it was a very minor issue in the school. I found it a very friendly school to work in, superb teachers, the students were... I mean, if you look at the Facebook pages that came up at that time this was the students supporting other students, it wasn't the students victimizing or bullying other students. This was students saying no, I am not going to sign up to any form of prejudice. So if anything I'd say it's the opposite, that the support for gay and queer students in that school was really good from the other students and from many, many of the staff. I think what happened with Richard Stanton's newsletter is he polarized the school. Once you get that degree of polarization then inevitably when you start pushing people out to the poles you end up with serious issues in terms of trying to bring them back together again so you can raise discussion. And I think that's what needs to happen now. You need some healing to try and bring back and raise discussion. To my knowledge that has not happened yet. Gareth: What about reaction from other staff? What's been the interaction between other staff and you since? Nigel: Great. I have no problem with other staff. I've had contact with many, many of the staff who've been incredibly supportive, many of whom are very – how can I put it? – worried. They're very nervous of losing their job. I mean, when you see what's happened to me, you know, I've had several staff say to me, well I'll be next because I've always been with you on things like this. And I think there's definitely an atmosphere there that needs to be addressed because it is not healthy to have a situation where you've got this form of authoritarian dominance, which certainly in my opinion that authoritarian dominance is not a healthy or constructive atmosphere to have. It should be a cohesive whole where people talk to each other, where people support each other. I know several teachers who've said to me they don't go to the staff room, they're staying in the resource areas, they're staying away from coming together. It's coming to the end of the school year; next week is the end of the school year. I was told a week or so ago that currently nine teachers are leaving that school. I see there's five adverts on the Education Gazette. There's 39 staff in the school, so even at the lowest estimate of five that is a significant percentage of staff that are leaving the school. That's not healthy and it's a great shame. At the highest estimate we're getting on close for what, a quarter of the staff that will be changing? And this is in a time when finding a job as a teacher is not easy. I mean, for me looking for another job I'm looking at having to drive perhaps next term at least an hour each end of the day to get to another job to be able to teach just because there are not the jobs available at present, just as the economy itself is having difficulties. Gareth: And in terms of contact with the students, have you had much contact with them? Nigel: Oh yeah, I've been teaching them. I mean, this happened.... If we come back to the actual fundamental job of a school it's to educate people and to help turn them out in rounded human beings who are tolerant and kind, just nice people and people we want in society. This happened seven weeks or thereabouts before the final exams. I was the teacher in charge of chemistry. There are three teachers, four teachers that there were in the Science Department at that time. I was one of two that had any experience of teaching NCEA before, so there were two teachers that had been hired the previous year who hadn't taught NCEA senior sciences before, so we got a serious impact on the Science Department by suspending a science teacher at that point. So I had a year 13 chemistry class, a year 12 chemistry class, a year 11 science class, teaching level one, plus my year 10 class that I was accelerating to level one; so a lot of students preparing for exams. So yes, I've had a lot of contact with students because I've been teaching them at my house, doing private tutorials for their parents bringing them to the house so that I could help prepare them for the exams. I started doing that for nothing, just for free in town after school, and a local business, LJ Hooker in Whangarei actually donated a building for me to use to do it in the center of town. Then I had, after I got a letter from the board stating that I was not allowed to have any contact with students during my suspension, in effect, and it could be seen as threatening behavior, I had to stop doing that. Once I was fired by the school I immediately started doing it again just to help students, and now I'm at a small charge just to cover my costs in doing it. But hopefully, I mean the letters that I've had from parents and the support I've had from parents has been amazing, incredible support from parents, a lot of people very unhappy with the Pompallier Catholic College Board right now, and I think they need to address that. I've asked, under the Freedom of Information Act, to get the Board minutes from the meetings, and I've asked the union to also ask for all the letters that they've received from parents in terms of their, you know, both for and against just so we can have a look at the whole thing in the round and see is the Board currently serving the interests of Pompallier Catholic College? Gareth: Just finally, if you were to reflect back on this whole experience and you were to try and impart a message to your students and students in other schools, what would that be? Nigel: Speak up. Don't ever let anybody tell you you have no right to an opinion. And I think that is probably the most fundamental thing that we're discussing here: the right to everybody to free speech. And I know that seems like we should be saying this back in the '50s or the '60s. You know, I thought we fought all these battles, I really did, but even today that exists, even today we have people afraid to speak up, especially teachers. You know, I think we've got teachers who basically are told that they must follow what the principal says, regardless. When this happened I went to the principal, I went to his deputy, I went to the Secretary for the Board, the Staff Representative for the Board of Trustees. I got absolutely nowhere with any of them, and then I supported the students in what they were doing. My message to every student out there and every teacher out there is: Follow your conscience, follow your own ethical code, and if necessary speak up. You must speak up because if we look at the youth suicide rate, and in particular the suicide rate in Northland is just horrendous, but as that applies I think today we heard in the Conference that that can be running at eight, nine, ten times the normal youth suicide rate. If you save one life by speaking up, well forget everything else, you've done the right thing. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 688
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/marriage_equality_conference_joseph_habgood.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004089
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089383
TITLE: Joseph Habgood - Marriage Equality Conference
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Joseph Habgood
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Barack Obama; Community Law (Wellington); InsideOUT Kōaro; James Barron; Joseph Habgood; KAHA Youth Hui (2009); LegaliseLove (Wellington); Louisa Wall; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Marriage Equality Conference (2012); Nayland College; United States of America; Wellington; activism; adoption; civil unions; depression; equality; government; hate crime; homophobia; human rights; identity; law; love; marriage; marriage equality; mental health; organisation; peer support; prejudice; queer straight alliance (QSA); school; social justice; straight; suicide; support; transcript online; transphobia; violence; youth
DATE: 2 December 2012
YEAR: 2012
LOCATION: Community House/Press Hall, 80 Willis Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Joseph Habgood, one of the founders of LegaliseLove, talks about the beginnings of the organisation. This interview was recorded during the Marriage Equality Conference held at Community House in Wellington. The transcript for this podcast was generously sponsored by James Barron.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 1 January 2014
TEXT: This transcript was generously sponsored by James Barron. It has been lightly edited for clarity Joseph Habgood: So, yeah, my name is Joseph Habgood and I'm currently the Communications Officer for LegaliseLove, Wellington. I also had the privilege of being one of the founders of LegaliseLove as it then was, back in the day. And the idea for this essentially came about out of quite a horrific sort of story from the United States. Back in September, 2010, there were a spate of quite terrible homophobic attacks and suicides, and that gave, I guess, the impetus to this campaign and in North America to start what became Spirit Day, which was every October 20th there's an event where everyone wears purple to their school or place of work. And back in 2010 I had the idea that Spirit Day needs to be an international thing, that something that sort of came about out of this higher price, I suppose, needs to not be lost, and if anything positive can come from it, it needs to be. So this led up basically to a rally on the 20th of October, 2011, where we brought around about 300 people marching on Parliament. And I guess because I see the world in a very sort of legalistic sense – I'm a law student – so what I wanted to kind of do to help was push for legal equality in marriage and adoption, and so those were the two kind of planks that LegaliseLove was formed on. Since then, obviously, and at the start of 2012 we had this mindset of, you know, we want to keep pushing for these things, and we thought that it was a really worthy cause to go towards, but we were kind of thinking maybe in the next three years, four years. And then of course President Barack Obama said: You know what? I think same-sex marriage is something good. And then all of a sudden all of our politicians start, you know, having a comment on it, and we thought there's got to be a moment soon in our history when this will be debated. And then of course Louisa Wall introduced her Bill, and we thought wow, it's really impending, so we started preparing for the imminent debate. But we thought even then it was statistically unlikely for it to come out this year and we thought we've probably got a bit of time; the next day it was drawn [laughs], which, you know, was quite an exciting experience. At the time I was sitting in a law lecture and kind of trying to ignore my phone, which kept going off, and then I kind of snuck a glance at the third text and just nearly jumped to the moon, which was brilliant. But yeah, since then I started off kind of being the leader of LegaliseLove. I soon sort of stepped down into a more communicative role, which I think I personally like it better. But it's been like the actual people involved in LegaliseLove have changed over a couple times, but I think consistently through it we've had this energy of I feel like it's been an absolute privilege to work with everyone who has been involved in LegaliseLove from the start. You know, some people are still there, some people are not, but we've always had this energy of wanting to change the world. So yeah, I think it's been a really, really good journey. Our future I'm not entirely certain of. Like, after this Bill is dealt with, and I'm incredibly confident that New Zealand will come down on the right side, obviously we're not complacent about that and we're ready to do whatever it takes to make sure that happens, but once marriage equality is a reality in New Zealand I'm not sure where the group will go. Obviously we still have in our hearts a desire to fight homophobia and transphobia as hard as we possibly can. Whether that's as part of LegaliseLove or whether that's as part of other groups we've yet to decide, but essentially as a kind of conclusion underpinning everything that we do, at least everything I do, and I think my friends have this in common with me, is that homophobia and transphobia are – you know, I don't want to say the most because there are a lot of terrible things in the world – but certainly two of the most terrible things that modern society is cursed with, and I think the elimination of them is a goal that we all have to work towards. Like, I'm personally straight. I don't identify as an ally because I think the word ally implies that there's some sort of special privilege to it which I think is incredibly heterosexist. I think every person in the world should be an ally. I don't think the word ally needs to signify anything special. So, personally I think that I don't want to live in a world where the majority gets to decide how the minority live, and I don't want to live in a world that marginalizes people based on who they love, so that's why we do what we do. Gareth: Where does that drive come from for you? Joseph: For me? I think... Okay, well I mean back in high school I had a few friends who eventually sort of came out to me, one in terms of his sexual identity and one in terms of her gender identity, and both people I could see personally went through a lot. But the real kind of impetus, I suppose, was at the beginning of 2009 I went to the Kaha Youth Hui put on in Wellington, and it became clear to me then I actually went to a very liberal high school. You know, back when you're in year nine no school is liberal enough for you, but in national terms I went to a pretty liberal place. And I won't say that homophobia and transphobia didn't exist; of course they existed, but the kind of stories I heard at that hui in Wellington with people from all around New Zealand were utterly heartbreaking. And at one moment I was kind of like in this position where I could look into everyone's eyes at once – I was in front kind of addressing the crowd – and I looked into the eyes of this one cisgendered gay couple who were obviously and beautifully in love, and I had a weird sort of internal transformation because it was at once the most beautiful and the most sad thing I'd ever seen in my life. It was beautiful because obviously you know that this couple were in love and it was wonderful, and it was unmistakable, that like any couple you can kind of tell. And that was my first reaction. My second reaction was: This is the first time I've seen this. Why is that? And the answer came to me – I guess I can think of any manner of clichés to say how this came to me – but it was that this is being suppressed, people are afraid to show this, and that was terrifying. It was tragic because, you know, it seems trite to say there isn't enough love in the world, but any couple and any people that are truly in love should not be forced to hide that, ever. And the fact that people are not only forced to hide it, but also if they don't hide it receive terrible sanctions, disgusted me; and yeah, I guess that's the drive for me is to make sure that people like that couple I saw in the front row can be as public as they want to just like the rest of us. Gareth: Going back to 2011 and I was at the AsiaPacific Outgames Human Rights Conference and there wasn't a huge amount of talk about marriage equality. And I'm just wondering how did you rev up the communities to actually get them behind this? Joseph: Yeah, that's a good question. I think, like I said, the real impetus in New Zealand was external. I think it was Barack Obama saying this was actually a possibility. That said, the hui that I've been to there has been a lot of people that said I do want to get married and this is incredibly important to me. It's possible that maybe it wasn't envisioned as something that, you know, could happen this close after civil unions, maybe it needed to wait a little longer for that memory to fade, but I think that that's been proven to be false and I think that now it's become clear that the modern era is a time for marriage equality across the world, including New Zealand, regardless of our status with civil unions. And I think it's high time for that. And in terms of revving up, revving people up for marriage, I think it's split between people who see it as a civil human-rights issue and who passionately believe that laws should be equal, and also those who are driven basically by their passion for fighting transphobia and homophobia and who see the obvious link between an incredibly unequal law and the message that that sends to 14 year old boys and girls, and everything in between, in high schools coming out, and the government saying basically that the bullying you're experiencing now is going to be replicated in adulthood by unequal laws. And I think that personally that that is one of the worst parts of not having marriage equality is the message that that sends to young people. Gareth: There is law change, but there are other ways of changing people's behavior and thought patterns. Do you have any thoughts about what are other things that we can all do to make it a better place? Joseph: Okay. I think I guess the most obvious response is at the moment there's a tendency to use the word gay as a pejorative term, and I think that's one of the first things that we can try and get rid of. I know that my high school, Nayland College, in some classes has... we used to have " swear jars," now people have to give a contribution if they use the word gay as an insult, which I think, you know, is quite a clever say of dealing with the problem. But yeah, I think apart from law change it's really just... I mean, the answer is simpler than a lot of us care to realize; it's every time we encounter an incidence of homophobia or transphobia, and even if it's not intended – especially if it's not intended, actually – basically catching the person out and saying, you know, we're not saying you're a terrible person but that behavior you just demonstrated is not good and not acceptable and please stop. And I think it seems petty and it seems like it's not a huge response, but it actually is. And if everyone started doing that and if everyone, you know, actively kind of showed that they were not accepting of homophobia and transphobia I think the bigots – the true bigots, not the ones who demonstrate this behavior but the ones who are actually proud of it – would realize what a small minority they are. I think a lot of us are implicit allies of homophobia and transphobia without even realizing it; even if you don't sort of casually and unthinkingly use the word gay, I would assume that a lot of us stand by while that happens. So sort of not standing by is I think the biggest thing that most of us can do, and just practicing equality and practicing that acceptance in our day to day lives actively instead of passively. Gareth: But doesn't that really put yourself in the firing line for a lot of crap? Joseph: It can do. And understand that I'm not for one second saying that everyone has an obligation to. As a straight person I don't have to worry about constantly defending myself from homophobic and transphobic attacks. It seems to me that if we, with our cisgendered and heterosexist privilege, because that's what it is, it's cis and hetero privilege, don't have the courage to kind of take some of that – and not in every case; not when you know that the retaliation is going to be violent – but if we don't have the courage to sort of stand up for that then how can we really expect like our friends and our allies and our brothers and sisters to do the same? And it's sort of as heterosexuals and as cisgendered people there's only so much we can do, but that's something we can do, and I think that we have an obligation to do that, really. Now, the way I see it I would like to jump into my friend's skin sometimes and fight their personal battles for them, because that's what friends do, they defend each other. But you can't sort of jump into their heads and help fight their depression and help fight the homophobia internally, so I think the reaction is if you can't do it internally you have to actually do it externally. You have to go out and maybe not seek out people who are homophobic, or are knowingly or unknowingly homophobic, but at least we're like dealing with it when it happens. And I'm not saying that I've done that every time, and I don't think there's anyone who really does because there are circumstances in which you think maybe this isn't wise, maybe this actually would be dangerous to me, and I'm not for a second encouraging people to put themselves in harm's way. But I think that fearing some sort of social rejection for standing up for your friends... I don't know, I think people would actually be surprised, to be honest. Like, it's incredibly uncomfortable to put yourself in that position and, you know, there are some people who would be like physically unable to put themselves in that position, people with social anxiety and anything else, and I'm not for a second condemning that, but people who feel themselves able to I think should. Gareth: Do you think your sense of social justice came prior to going into law or was it something that happened after going into studying law? Joseph: This happened before. I think it was actually the other way around. I think I went into... well, every law student says this I suppose, and I guess it's pretty arrogant to say it, but I think law, at least in part, was out of a desire to enact change. But again, like I say, most students – pardon me, most law students go into it wanting to make change and go out wanting to just make money. So, you know, we'll see. Ask me again in two years [laughs]. Gareth: So where to now for you? You're studying law at the moment; where do you think that will lead you? Joseph: Well I'm not entirely sure. I guess just from a pragmatic perspective as well as being involved in campaigns I do want something that will give me a steady income in life, but I also think that law can be used for good and I think the ideal situation would be to join with a sort of social group that stuck up for people in unfortunate legal situations and gave sort of advice to them. Like, I know this is just a hypothetical, but I know as a high schooler I had absolutely zero information about what my rights were, or what my obligations were for that matter, and I would have really appreciated – not necessarily a lawyer so that I could sue my high school, I liked my high school – but it occurred to me sometimes: You know, I don't know what my rights are. I know what I think my rights are, but I don't really know precisely what I'm entitled to do. And I think a lot of response to that, because I think it's more people than me that just think that, there are two kinds of responses to as a student not knowing your rights:The first is to kind of bow down and go, oh well, you know, it's not worth it. And the second one is to just openly and aggressively rebel, which I'm not going to comment on whether I did or not, but it's sort of like if you know exactly what you're entitled to but also know exactly what your obligations are, like if you know your rights and responsibilities I think you can make change in a more effective way, and you can deal respectfully with school boards and you can deal effectively with school boards because you know where you stand. And, you know, I'm not saying that'll end in lawsuit, but I am saying that if both parties are kind of dealing with each other on equal terms it will possibly lead to a really good outcome. So, yeah, in terms of a job I don't know how else to really address where to. I don't have a 10-year plan. My plan at the moment is to fight for this Bill, get it through Parliament and then party for 10 weeks. Gareth: If you had something to say to students going through high school now that maybe don't have the support networks that are in larger centers or in schools that aren't necessarily as friendly, what would that be? Joseph: All right, there's a group called QSA Network Aotearoa, which is setting up in Wellington and has already had one national hui – seek them out. And this is mainly for queer and straight alliances within high schools, but even if you want to set up your own sort of just student support network, regardless of whether it's queer friendly or not, seek advice from them, but especially if you're trying to start a QSA. Or even if you're not trying to start a QSA, even if you just want support personally, seek this group out because they do a lot of good. The group started this year but the people responsible for organizing it transformed my life personally, and I know that they have the power to do that to anyone. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 275
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/gay_bc_12_july_1986.html
ATL REF: 
ATL URL: 
TITLE: Gay BC (12 July 1986)
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Annette King; George Gair; Ian Kember; John Banks; Jon Lusk; Norman Jones
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; Alison Laurie; Annette King; Aotearoa New Zealand; Brett Sheppard; Copenhagen; Gay BC (Wellington Access Radio); Gay Task Force; George Gair; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Ian Kember; John Banks; Jon Lusk; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Miriam Saphira; Norman Jones; Parliament buildings; Wellington; Wellington Access Radio; Wellington Gay Switchboard; Wellington Gay Task Force; activism; gay; gay liberation movement; homosexual law reform; human rights; media; politics; programme; radio; transcript online
DATE: 12 July 1986
YEAR: 1986
LOCATION: Wellington Access Radio, 1st Floor, 35/37 Ghuznee Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: Gay BC (Broadcasting Collective) was a community radio programme that broadcast weekly on Wellington's Access Radio from 1985 to the 1990s. This programme was broadcast a couple of days after the passing of the Homosexual Law Reform Act (9 July 1986). It contains recordings from the third reading debate and final vote in parliament.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 1 January 2014
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Speaker: [audio recording of Parliamentary vote] The question is.... Would honorable members please resume their seats. The question is that the Homosexual Law Reform Bill be now read a third time, the ayes are 49, the noes are 44. It will be read a third time.[cheering and applause] Jon Lusk: That was a recording of the final vote on the third reading of the gay law reform bill, and yesterday at noon the Governor General signed the bill and it passed into law. And this program of Gay BC is for all those who fought for law reform in New Zealand. We'll have more highlights from Parliament's historic Wednesday night session soon, but first of all.[music] George Gair: [audio recording of Parliamentary vote] Now sir, the argument has been going on so long that inevitably Parliament now must address the final crunch. The fact that there has been no willingness to compromise is as much on the heads and the responsibility of those who are opposed to the bill as those who are for the bill in its present form. Each could have worked with those in the middle ground to find a compromise which would have produced a change in the law, would have produced reform, but an age a little higher than that proposed in the bill. Now sir, those like myself, who I believe do represent the middle ground, are presented with really three options: to vote against the bill, to abstain, or to vote for the bill unamended. I cannot vote against it, sir, because this change – a change – is long overdue, and that I have sought to make clear. I considered for some time that perhaps the course was to abstain, and I agonized over this point and I must say that there are some aspects of abstention that are appealing, but in the final analysis a vote for abstention, I reasoned, was passing the responsibility over to others, and that I'm not prepared to do. So, I was presented with what I feel is a difficult choice between two propositions, neither of which I like but one of which I like less than the other. So sir, I will when the vote is taken vote for the bill, but I grant you, with considerable reluctance. If the vote tonight is finely balanced either for or against, it is certain that the arguments will come back again. It will haunt this chamber until New Zealand society finds a way of living with change. Mr Speaker, the last plea I make is that however Members may vote tonight, those beyond this chamber and outside will not judge the individual Members too harshly because even those who oppose me and oppose my position, I believe are voting with their conscience and they are voting for what they believe to be right.[applause] Speaker: Mr. Banks. John Banks: Some shallow, humbug and weak rhetoric from the Member for North Shore; an historical dissertation of negligible substance, of negligible substance. The Member, halfway through his speech that was an abstain speech until 70% of it was delivered, said, " The sponsors of this bill are asking for too much," and I'll say to the Member, as I said to him privately, I'm terribly, terribly disappointed in the Member for North Shore. He is a colleague of mine. And sir, I hope after this is gone he will continue to be a friend of mine.[derisive noise from Members] John Banks: That I'm, sir, prepared to stand up and be counted and say that if the Member for North Shore voted with the rest of his colleagues just one week ago we would not be debating this bill tonight. This day will be remembered as a sad and sickening day for New Zealand, a sad and sickening day for New Zealand; a very black cloud hangs over this Parliament tonight, and those Members that wheel themselves through the doors of the Ayes lobby, voting for legalized sodomy at the age of 16, should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. Speaker: Yes, Mr Jones. Norm Jones: This bill could have been defeated last Wednesday by 46 votes to 44. Two Wednesdays previously it could have been defeated by four votes. Tonight, and I know the numbers as well as the Member for Wellington Central knows it, this bill will be passed through by 48 votes to 45 – and I've done the counting – by 48 votes to 45, or 47 votes to 46, just depending on who hasn't made up their mind. There's no compromise on sodomy. It's either right or it's wrong, and it's wrong as hell and everybody knows that. And as for the Member for North Shore, of course, give the Member for North Shore eight alternatives and he'll look for a ninth... and he'll look for a ninth; it's typical. Speaker: Yes. Miss Annette King. Annette King: Mr Speaker, I move that the question be now put. Speaker: The question now is that the Homosexual Law Reform Bill be now read a third time. Those who are of that opinion will say aye.[some members respond with " aye"] Speaker: Of the contrary opinion will say no.[some members respond with " no"] Speaker: They " ayes" have it. Member: Division called for. Speaker: Division called for. Ring the bell. The question is.... Would honorable Members please resume their seats? The question is that the Homosexual Law Reform Bill be now read a third time. The ayes are 49; the noes are 44. It will be read a third time.[sustained cheering and applause] Speaker: Clear the gallery! Clear the gallery! The House will not tolerate this interference. I want that offender removed from the gallery. Any further disturbance from the galleries and I will have them cleared. Voice: Homosexual Law Reform Bill, third reading. Member: [crosstalk]... unlock the doors. Speaker: Yes, unlock the doors. Member: Yes, unlock the doors. Jon Lusk: Well, those are a few of the highlights of Wednesday night in Parliament as Fran Wilde's gay law reform bill passed its third reading. And I think the Speaker was talking about a certain fundamentalist Christian who stood up and foamed at the mouth in the public gallery just when the Law Reform Bill was passed. John Banks was right, of course, there is no generic connection at all for homosexuality. And before that we had a song from Bronski Beat. That was off the new album called Truth Doubledare [sic], and the song was called " Hit That Perfect Beat Boy." All right, we've got some news now and this is read by Ian. Ian Kember: Creation scientists, the people who believe that the world was made in six days, can now join the newly reformed Creation Science Association. Renton Maclachlan of the Open Brethren Research Fellowship has formed this new group, " to recognize the relevance of creation to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as it is spoken into a society that seems to be increasingly humanistic." A conference for lesbian and gays in education is to be held in Wellington in August. The conference has been organized by a group of gay and lesbian students and teachers. For further information contact:Lesbians and Gays in EducationP. O. Box 3264WellingtonOr phone Tighe or AndyThings seem to be looking up for gay nightlife in Wellington and Christchurch. In Christchurch, Angles Nightclub which has been closed due to fire damage, was reopened on Queen's Birthday Weekend to a 350-strong crowd. Meanwhile in Wellington, Brett Sheppard of the OUT! empire, who owns Alfie's in Auckland, among other gay venues, is planning to open a nightclub in Wellington soon. As yet they have not found a suitable location, as far as we know. Also, the Electric Ballroom in Victoria Street opposite McDonald's will continue to run discos for lesbians and gay men. The next dance is planned for Saturday, the 26th of July, and Saturday, the 2nd of August. The dances at Victoria University continue to pull large crowds, and last weekend's dance was a colorful and friendly affair. Funds raised from these dances, which are run by the Lesbian and Gay Student Group, are being channeled back into lesbian and gay community groups. The Lesbian and Gay Rights Resource Center, the AIDS Support Network, Gay Community Center, Gay and Lesbian Switchboards, and the Women's Place Bookshop have all benefited from considerable donations as a result of recent dance fundraising. So, support your community and have fun while you're about it. Wellington's team for the Gay Games Two in San Francisco later this year has decided that it will not participate in the games if there is any participation by gay South African sportspeople. The decision was prompted by a letter from HART (Halt all Racist Tours) concerning the plight of a gay and anti-apartheid activist, Simon Nkoli, currently imprisoned in South Africa. Apparently, gay groups from South Africa have not responded to requests from other international groups for them to do something about the situation. However, while it is all very well to say what you like, if you're not living in South Africa it is not clear either what sort of pressure gay political groups are under in South Africa. And now some international gay news. New Zealand is not the only country to have recently achieved gay law reform. Belgium has had an age of consent of 16, and a bill repealing the discriminatory age of 18 was passed in the senate in June. The repeal bill was first introduced by a Socialist MP in June, 1983. A new move towards equality for gay and lesbian couples has been made in Australia. The lobbying group called The Gay Immigration Task Force has succeeded in getting the Australian Federal Minister for Immigration to allow non-Australian partners of gay Australians permanent residency on the basis of genuine relationships. The Minister required that proof in the form of evidence that a couple had lived together for more than four years was required. Temporary resident visas will be allowed so as to establish the four-year period in cases. So far 40 applications for permanent or temporary residence have been approved. While this is hardly equality with the laws governing heterosexual marriages and immigration, it is a step. If you are interested, the group can be contacted at:GITFP. O. Box 415NSW 2001, Australia[music] Jon Lusk: Well, that was the never ending 12-inch version of Love to Love You, Baby from Bronski Beat before Jimmy Somerville left them. It's just about 12:00 o'clock, and I'll just give you a few community notices before we go. Pink Triangle has just been published, the latest edition, and it features as well as international news, which we ripped off for this program, an interview with Dennis Altman, the Australian gay-rights activist and author of AIDS and the New Puritanism, and that book is reviewed, among other things, in Pink Triangle, and also a live interview with him... well, not live, but an interview. And there'll be a rundown of the gay and lesbian films in the film festival. I went to the first one last night called My Beautiful Laundrette, and it was excellent! There's also an interview with a person with AIDS. Apart from that... oh yeah, you can get it in your local bookstore, good bookstores around town. The real raffle is still being run by the Gay Task Force, and tickets are $2. 00. The first prize is $400. 00 and the raffle closes on July the 30th and it'll be drawn on the 6th of August. It's limited to 1,500 tickets, and the campaign may be over but the Task Force still has a lot of bills to pay so this is a fundraising effort that you can contribute to. The next Gay Task Force meeting is on Wednesday the 24th of July at 6:00 PM at the Dorian, and the major point of discussion will be the future function of the Gay Task Force. A victory celebration dance has been tentatively planned for the 23rd of July, and that’s on a Wednesday night, and among the guests will be leading MPs who supported the bill. The Task Force sent a flower to every MP who supported the bill on Thursday. As from Monday the Gay Task Force office at the Community Center will be closed until further notice. We've just heard from our roving reporter, Alison Laurie, that she telephoned the International Gay Association Conference in Copenhagen the night the bill was passed and told the news to Miriam Saphira, who is New Zealand's representative at that conference, and she relayed the news to a reception which was going on at the time and there was a great deal of celebration and clapping and cheering followed by a march to the American Embassy in Copenhagen protesting against the Supreme Court's decision in the US by five votes to four making sodomy unconstitutional, and that includes oral and anal intercourse for gay and straight people. So, we don't know what's going to happen in the future for those wondrous United States leaders. If anybody wants to go to the International Lesbian and Gay Youth Conference being held in Oslo – that's different from the IGA conference. The International Conference for Lesbian and Gay Youth is being held in August, Oslo, and if you want to get involved in that or perhaps even go to it you should get in contact with Gay BC Collective. That's P. O. Box 3264, Wellington. This is Gay BC Radio you're listening to, the gay radio collective, and if you want to ring for any information or counseling you can ring the switchboard on 728 609, Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday. That's the gay switchboard, 7 to 10 PM, for information and counseling. Remember, the fight's not over. There's a great deal of cause for celebration but we lost part two of the bill, and lesbians and gays in this country still don't have any protection from anti-discrimination, so it's no time to sit back on our laurels. It looks like the fundamentalist Christians are planning a new campaign so we mustn't let them get away with what they tried to get away with before. We'll see you later. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

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TITLE: Ralph Knowles - early years of HIV AIDS in Christchurch
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ralph Knowles
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; AIDS Support Network; Christchurch; Garry Cantwell; Gay Liberation Front; Gay Liberation Front Christchurch; HIV / AIDS; Homosexual Law Reform Society; Hugh Gaw; National Gay Rights Coalition; New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF); Ralph Knowles; Ramada Inn; beats; cruising; gay; health; transcript online
DATE: 30 December 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Christchurch, Christchurch, Canterbury
CONTEXT: In this podcast Ralph Knowles talks about the early years of HIV/AIDS in Christchurch, and how he helped produce the first pamphlet about the virus in New Zealand. Ralph died on 3 July 2019.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 1 January 2014
TEXT: This transcript was generously sponsored by Jeri Castonia. It has been lightly edited for clarity. Ralph Knowles: My name is Ralph Knowles. I came back to Christchurch in 1973. In Wellington I'd been involved in the Homosexual Law Reform Society and I continued to be their contact person in Christchurch. But soon after arriving at Christchurch I became involved with the new Gay Liberation Front, which was an active group of a very different sort of people, and through them and just through settling in to living in Christchurch I became pretty aware of the gay scene in Christchurch – we were, by then, using the word gay – and became politically active with and through them. Gareth: In the '70s in Christchurch, the gay scene, what was going on? Ralph: Well, from my point of view there was a lot of activity out on the beaches and the beats, cruising the areas. There was by then a sauna very similar to ones you find in other big metropolitan cities. And there was a lot of community work. There were some pubs that were known for short periods to be places where gay people would meet. What tended to happen was we tended to become unwelcome and would move on to somewhere else; that was the Ramada Inn in particular. There was also a community center run on a voluntary basis called the Lambda Center. That was a good place for people to socialize, and particularly for people who were uneasy about coming into the gay scene it was a friendly place to make an entry. And there were big GUS – Gay University Student – dances; that sort of thing. In terms of sexual activity I guess it was mainly, apart from the people who were in relationships and living together, there was a lot of cruising going on at a number of sites, some of which were famous and some were infamous, and a gradual feeling that things were becoming less pressured. But that feeling wasn't necessarily mirrored by the attitude of the authorities such as the police, and one or two of us got into trouble with the police in one way or another through to the late 1970s. Gareth: Can you give me some examples of some of the beats or some of the locations in Christchurch that were being used? Ralph: The Christchurch Railway Station, wrecked by the earthquakes, was a very popular spot. Hagley Park was famous, and had been for many, many decades. Waimairi Beach at North Brighton was popular, particularly in summer. And there were other parks around the city, smallish parks, but that had public conveniences in them, and I'm thinking of Beverley Park in Richmond, Saint Albans Park in, I guess Saint Albans, and so on. But I would say... Oh, and Manchester Street; there was a car-parking building in Manchester Street and there was a public convenience on the ground floor of that that was very busy. Gareth: When you say " very busy," what kind of numbers are we talking? Ralph: Oftentimes any time of day or night you could pop in there and there'd be someone looking for sex. You might have to hang around for awhile and risk getting arrested, but you might have to hang around for awhile but there'd be someone drifting by. I met a wide range of people there. I'll never forget one guy; I couldn't believe it because his car was parked immediately outside the loo and it had a baby seat strapped in the back area of it. [laughs] I mean, I know that plenty of married people... my own partner now has been married, but it just seemed.... I sort of thought, oh dear! What is happening in that man's life? He was a nice guy, too, and I was going to say we exchanged fluids, but what a familiar way of putting it! And then we went out, quite chatty, and he gets into this car with all the paraphernalia of a family man. I'm not... I'm just expressing surprise – no judgment involved. Gareth: How would you describe the sexual climate of the time in Christchurch in the late '70s? Ralph: There was still the frisson of being involved in risky activity, and of course if your sexual encounters are largely in public spaces, even if it's, you know, a bushy park and it's 11:00 at night, what you can do and what you choose to do is rather different from what you might do in the comfort of your own home, though sometimes people risked taking someone they'd picked up at one of the parks home, and that sort of changed the dynamics a bit. Gareth: At that time, in the late '70s, what were the biggest health risks for gay men? Ralph: I think just sexually transmitted diseases across the board, none of which were particularly dangerous; I mean, unpleasant, yes. The obvious ones: syphilis was a major one; gonorrhea. There was something else I was thinking of too. Oh, I was consulted by a young man who had managed to get genital warts, and that was very distressing to him, distressing to his girlfriend, too [laughs], and surprisingly difficult to get rid of, whereas things like syphilis in those days were well under control. So the range of sexually transmitted diseases, although unpleasant, they weren't life threatening. And the other big danger – it's not quite a health danger, but I suppose it is – but there was also the risk of being assaulted, of being gay-bashed. Gareth: Did that happen often? Ralph: Often enough. I don't know; one or two cases per year got into the papers. You occasionally heard of others. I had at least one friend who was badly assaulted in Hagley Park. Oh, and another friend who took someone home from the sauna and that was a big mistake, and he was well bashed-up, and I had to take him to A and E the next day to get wound stitches and treatment of one sort or another. That was pretty bad. He was also.... The perpetrator had also taken a wallet and valuables from the house; so, having thumped him up then cleared off with valuables. Gareth: In that situation and when homosexuality was still illegal was there a way of going to the police without kind of incriminating yourself? Ralph: Not quite. It would depend what exactly you were complaining about. I complained about a burglary once and the cops came, and I hadn't left stuff lying around deliberately but they spotted an obviously gay magazine at one stage and they just sort of shrugged their shoulders and said, " Oh, I see you've got other interests," not unpleasantly, but just that they'd noted. I don't know whether they didn't develop the possibility that I might have been burgled by someone I'd had a liaison with. I hadn't; I'd arrived home from work to find the place broken into and a whole lot of stuff taken. You know, that sort of thing. But I was one of those people who felt that the police were there, in spite of my experiences, that the police were there to protect good citizens, and I felt that I was a good citizen and that I was entitled to their support and investigation. Gareth: So, with the health risks for gay men in the '70s in Christchurch was there any documentation or pamphlets, educational material that was given out to people about things like syphilis and gonorrhea? Ralph: Not that I was aware of in terms of it being targeted to gay people. I have in my collection of papers a number of handout magazine types produced by student's associations, all of which have a page or two out of twenty about homosexuality, and that do all contain information about sexually transmitted diseases. I think the same could be said of the Little Red Schoolbook. Do you remember the Alister Taylor production? You don't know about the Little Red Schoolbook? It was sort of vaguely connected with Mao's Little Red Book from the great political and cultural revolution – the same sort of size and format. But it was radical advice for high school students basically about anything and everything: their rights dealing with parents, sex, homosexuality, masturbation, sexually transmitted disease and so on. It was quite an issue at the time. I've probably got a copy around somewhere. Gareth: So in terms of getting health messages out to gay men there were those things from the student unions. Were there other things that were being published? Ralph: Only once AIDS was on the scene, and then there was much more specific information produced, targeted at a gay audience. And by then the National Gay Rights Coalition was in existence and I was involved in some of its activities, and a group of three of us, Hugh Gaw, a nurse called Garry Cantwell, and I put together a little three-fold pamphlet with an eye-catching front page and then a lot of information about AIDS, or GRIDS as it was known at the time, Gay-Related Immune Deficiency Syndrome, a little bit about the opportunistic diseases that were most prevalent in those early stages, and information about the STD clinic and guarantees of confidentiality and that sort of thing. Gareth: Let's just rewind a wee bit, and can you tell me before we get to HIV and AIDS, what was the National Gay Rights Coalition? Ralph: Right. Well, it was a sort of umbrella group for a lot of gay and lesbian groups throughout the country. It was national. Christchurch took quite a prominent part in it. It had conferences, sent people overseas from time to time. There was a lot of tension between the men and the women at some stages of that. And it took an interest in law reform, gay rights issues – especially for young people, especially for students – and picked up on things that were of concern to the gay community, and that's why they took an interest in, well, men's health in particular. Gareth: And was it through the Coalition that you first became aware of AIDS? Ralph: I was certainly in the Coalition at the time that I became first aware of that. I think not exactly through it, but it was the sort of thing we started talking about. I mean, I became aware of AIDS as soon as it happened, really. You know, the first reports, I think in the States, were in June, 1981. Well, within a month or two we were aware out here that there was this new phenomenon and that it was a worry, and that was those early reports of men presenting in the United States with Kaposi sarcoma and pneumocystis carinii pneumonia, both of which are diseases that would not normally be prevalent in younger people, and all of a sudden reports were coming into the Center for Disease Control, I think it's called, of these cases being reported. Gareth: Now, you're saying that about a month after it being reported in the States that you were picking up information. Ralph: Yeah. Gareth: How did you get that information? Ralph: Well I think there must have been some reference in local papers, but in particular a month or – you know, magazines from the United States took a month or two to get out here – but even the sorts of magazines like The Advocate that were coming to New Zealand carried articles about it in that first, terribly confused, 'God help us; what's happening?' sort of phase. And of course in a very short period of time people started to die overseas, and the response in New Zealand was: because of distance we've got a chance to organize this before it hits. And in fact, with international travel it didn't take long to make an appearance in New Zealand, but we did feel that we had a tiny bit of lead time. Gareth: So, if those first reports came out in June, 1981, when did the ball start rolling in New Zealand in terms of we've got to do something? Ralph: Well, I can't remember when the AIDS Support Network, which was the precursor of the AIDS Foundation set up, but the pamphlet that Hugh and Garry and I wrote I believe was either late '83 or early '84, so that's a bigger gap than I had thought of, really, but in that time it was just a case of sort of what's going to happen? Soon after that, once there was a real effort to get organized, I became involved with the group that petitioned – harassed – the District Health Board into providing premises for the AIDS Foundation or for the Support Network, preferably providing some funding for staff, organizing protocols for testing, and particularly confidentiality around results, you know, because we had the feeling right from the start that the most vulnerable section were casual positive people. We thought that by-and-large, people that went to the sauna picked up information, got condoms and so forth, but it was the casual I'm on my way home and I'm going to pop into Hagley Park and have it off with someone, they were the people who were sort of in more danger. I don't know whether we were right or not, but that's what we felt; so we felt that there needed to be some forms of publicity that could reach them. And they were particularly vulnerable in terms of privacy because you know if they were going home to a family they didn't want something from the District Health Board labeled " Sexually Transmitted Disease Division" arriving in the letter box, so there were a whole lot of things like that. Gareth: And when you say " we," is that the people in the National Gay Rights Coalition? Ralph: Yeah, very much so. Gareth: Looking at those dates there is a good year to year-and-a-half between the first reports and the National Gay Rights Coalition putting out this pamphlet. Ralph: Yeah. Yeah. Gareth: What was the feeling in that interim time? Can you recall? Ralph: Well I think, to be honest, almost worldwide there was still confusion: What is this? What's its cause? And there were years of debate about what the causal organism was. You know, it had various names: HTLV3, and then the French insisted on calling it something else, and eventually you know we settled on HIV – so, stuff like that. I mean, in the early days there was all that discussion about green monkeys and susceptible populations and so forth.[chuckling] I remember one joke that must have been – and I'm laughing about something. But anyway, it must have been in The Advocate that I read it, but it was about a young Jewish man who had HIV and he'd had trouble persuading his parents that he was a Haitian; there was no way a young Jewish man was going to tell his parents that he was gay, and Haitians were one of the especially susceptible populations. You know, that sort of black humor. And I think it was just confusing that in that period, yeah, from '81 really to '83, '84 and even later, just worldwide people were grasping on what is it? Where is it coming from? How do we control it? How bad is it going to be? And then of course people in the States just started to die in droves, and then bit by bit friends here died. Gareth: At that time you were also visiting Australia? Ralph: Yeah. Gareth: How was AIDS affecting the communities there? Ralph: I didn't notice a great deal of difference, but then by the time AIDS was on the scene my visits to Australia were with my partner, and we weren't really engaging – we weren't socializing with people or engaging with people who were likely to be susceptible or involved. So, I mean I didn't get a chance to see what saunas were doing in Australia in '84. I read about it in some of the Australian magazines, but by and large what they were doing was similar to what we were doing. Gareth: Now, I keep on saying AIDS, but actually at the time that wasn't the word that was used was it, or the acronym? Ralph: I think it was by '83. No! Well, I'm pretty sure our '83, '84 pamphlet referred to GRIDS, Gay-Related Immune Deficiency Syndrome. It was being used in the United States and that was because they knew it was immune deficiency because people normally threw off these diseases. For most of us even if we're carrying them they don't affect us because our immune systems deal with them, and those first 1981 reports were all young gay men. Gareth: Can you tell me about the discussions that were happening within the National Gay Rights Coalition in terms of trying to formulate some kind of pamphlets or health messages for gay men at the time? Ralph: The effort was to pick out the best advice from overseas, to convert it to New Zealand terminology, make sure that all the contact information was vetted in New Zealand. And of course one of the big barriers at that point was that homosexual acts were still criminal, and that of course became a plank in the law reform debate because those people that I mentioned before who were most susceptible or most positive and so forth, they needed to know that they could go for a test without the authorities making links with criminal activity. Gareth: Did the Coalition have any discussions with places like the Department of Health or other government agencies? Ralph: Oh, they certainly did; the Department of Health for funding, and my recollection is that the government did put up some funding quite early on. And locally my biggest task, my biggest input locally was the arguments with the District Health Board over funding, premises, testing protocols and so on. And they probably weren't as early as '83, '84, but let's say '84, '85; you know, quite early on in the scheme of things – certainly before Law Reform. And we had the AIDS Support Network form a local branch and we had regular meetings of the key people in that. And by then we had a young doctor who was a major help in terms of the relationship with the Hospital Board; and there was a counselor who I think was funded by the government, focused on AIDS. Gareth: The leaflet that the Coalition put out, was that the first leaflet describing GRIDS/HIV? Ralph: Well I think it was in the New Zealand context. I certainly hadn't seen any handout publicity. There may have... it was mainly a Christchurch initiative. I don't know what other centers were doing, but certainly in terms of the Christchurch area that was very early, and the three, or two of us at least, were recognized relatively recently for having been involved in that very early initiative. Gareth: Why do you think it was a community driven initiative that put out that first material and not something like the Department of Health? Ralph: I think because they had no particular interest in gay men. They didn't know how they could communicate with gay men, particularly of the type that we've referred to a couple of times who were perhaps more casual participators. I mean, the Department of Health publicity about a whole range of things seems to me to have improved hugely over the decades since then. If I go into a doctor's waiting room there's stuff about everything. I'm particularly interested in the stuff about diabetes, but I mean there's all sorts of stuff, pamphlet after pamphlet, and in several languages. Well, that's relatively new in my experience, and we felt at the time that we needed to do something targeted at gay men because no one else was yet doing that. Gareth: So the pamphlet came out, and where was it distributed? Ralph: Saunas; we put copies in loos; we put them on service clubs, health clinics, doctor's waiting rooms and so forth. Sometimes they were removed. Because it's a threefold pamphlet and it's ordinary paper it wasn't all that good for leaving in, say, the open-air conveniences at Hagley Park, and we were sort of conscious of that but we'd leave a few copies in a cubicle or whatever. There was one set of loos at the polytech that I felt – I was never involved in anything there – but I felt that it looked to me as though there were a few gay students sort of making use of that particular facility, so I put a pile of them in the cubicles there, that sort of thing. Gareth: You were saying that sometimes pamphlets were removed, resistance to actually seeing this type of information; where was that coming from? Ralph: Well to be fair the front page of it, it wasn't obscene or anything like that, but it was intended to be eye-catching, and as I remember it was sort of borrowed from an American magazine and it was a youngish man, nearly naked, and stretching up like this with 1980's long, flowing hair like so, and I think some doctor's receptionists just felt that wasn't an appropriate thing to be on their shelves. I don't know. I don't think medically that anyone would have objected, although I remember there was a very common reaction throughout the community that, you know, it served you right. Gareth: Is that through the mainstream community? Ralph: Yeah, yeah. And I'm sure, because I've known doctor's receptionists who weren't very sympathetic of, say, unmarried mothers – it's sort of passé now – but there was a time when you weren't all that keen about going to your GP about a sexually transmitted disease. It didn't bother me because I would say if you're taking a blood test for blood sugar, I want you to tick the HIV box, but, you know, most people would rather go very anonymously and give a false name at the clinic than front up with the GP. Gareth: How did the gay community respond to the pamphlet? Ralph: I think it was fairly positive. It certainly felt that it was important that we'd made an effort. What I can't remember is whether there was anything in it about condoms, and yet by '83, '84 there ought to have been. Gareth: Was there a feeling within the gay community that this is something happening elsewhere and won't happen in Christchurch? Ralph: We thought it would come, but we thought we had lead time; that's my recollection of it. And so of course when the first person arrived back from overseas suffering from AIDS that was bad news anywhere in New Zealand, not Christchurch in particular. But it was quite early on that the first acquaintances, people that I had met and had some social contact with, died. That was pretty bad news. I also had been... although I wasn't cruising a great deal, I mean I wasn't completely without risk, and so as soon as the clinic was properly set up, partly because I thought I needed a clean bill of health and partly because I was in the Gay Rights Coalition and I was monitoring all this, and I thought I want to see what actually happens if someone that they don't know is involved – not exactly the Mystery Shopper, but that sort of approach – I want to see how I'm actually treated right through the process, and it was fine. Whether it would be fine for everyone, I don't know. I mean, I wasn't a working-class Polynesian for example. I just don't know. But from my point of view, and that I was approaching it with a certain amount of information, a certain amount of political and public confidence, it was fine. I was pleased to have done it. And as I said before, after that anytime blood was being taken I just asked the GP to tick the box. Gareth: So working on the information you had about HIV and AIDS, when you first became aware of it did that change your sexual practices? Ralph: No. I knew enough about what activities were significantly risky and I wasn't actually participating in those with casual people. It did slow me down; it did change the pattern in that respect. And David was tested and I was tested and we were both negative. So, I guess I was just more careful, but I wasn't really indulging in high-risk activity. Gareth: Can you recall when the first person you knew came back to New Zealand or was in New Zealand and discovered they were HIV positive? Ralph: Yeah. This guy had had some contact with Ascent, the gay Catholic group that I was involved in. A nice guy, a very attractive guy, and I think that was a feature: young men who were in the gay community considered to be particularly attractive were probably particularly sexually active and probably were more susceptible to infection. That was very, very sad. I've been to a few gay funerals but his was the first and the saddest. It was just terrible, really, to have lost such a beautiful person, to have lost anyone, but to have lost such a beautiful person so early in his life, really. Gareth: Had you ever encountered anything like that before in terms of his illness? Ralph: No. I think it really made me very sad for his loss, but also brought it well and truly home that this was now a New Zealand issue. I mean, I'd known all that and I've said we were sort of preparing for it and waiting for it and expecting it, but here it was, it's arrived, and a reminder that we needed to be more careful and that there were people who were particularly susceptible for one reason or another. Gareth: Can you describe how the gay community changed, if at all, from the period of first becoming aware of HIV/AIDS through to the first people coming into Christchurch with the virus? Ralph: Just that sense of waiting and now it's arrived, and some of us involved in trying to set up the systems that would be needed to address it: the training workshops for carers, for example. And I'm sure it did change some people's behavior, and certainly for anyone who was involved in... well, there were condoms at the sauna, and I think that anyone who was at risk and who was involved in anal sex was probably being more cautious. I think that's slacked off since, possibly now that it's not an absolute and automatic immediate death sentence. Gareth: Were you involved in some of the training to become carers? Ralph: Yes. Yep, and those were the days when we were trying to put together a pool of people who could be called on, and they were involved in a discussion of hygiene, basic care in schools, but the first thing was always confronting your own fears and checking out your own prejudices and anxieties about it, bringing them out in the open and dealing with them if you could. I remember a guided visualization, lying back and thinking about being led through reflections. I was never called on to care for anyone with AIDS, but the training that I got was very valuable in caring for David. Gareth: And David was your partner for 30 years. Ralph: Yes. Gareth: And he died of motor neuron disease. Ralph: Motor neuron disease, November, '95. Twenty-six months from first symptom to diagnosis – well, 13 months from first symptoms to diagnosis and another 13 months from diagnosis to death, so for just over two years. Gareth: The carer training, was that undertaken through the AIDS Support Network? Ralph: Yeah, that's as I recall it. Yeah. Gareth: And you were saying that you were helping in the Christchurch region getting office space or pushing for office space. Ralph: Yeah. Yeah. It was for the setting up of the Ettie Rout Clinic: where was it going to be? And there was a fair bit of resistance, not opposition, reluctance, resistance, I felt, on the part of the people we were dealing with in terms of fronting up with the funds and the premises. Gareth: Why do you think that was? Ralph: I think pressure on resources generally. I mean there always has been pressure on resources. And possibly a group that, you know, ought not to have.... There was a lot of reaction overseas by then, all this attention going on AIDS, and I was aware of this through the Motor Neuron Network, which is a terrible disease and affects umpteen-thousand in the USA and Canada, and so forth: they can't get any publicity, there's no film star promoting their cause, and all this money is going to these poofters sort of thing. There was an element of that. And I think – we never had this out with them – but I think that a certain reluctance and minimal cooperation was because there were lots of other groups in Christchurch or in New Zealand who needed funding and premises and staffing, who were more deserving, you know? You only get this disease because you've been up to no good. Gareth: So were the publications that were put out in the early years about protection, so stopping people from getting the virus, or were they more about supporting people with the virus? Ralph: That first pamphlet certainly described the symptoms and advertised the testing. Gareth: Can you recall the types of language or specific words? Ralph: We've always had that issue in gay relation matters. [laughs] You know, do you call a fuck a fuck or don't you sort of thing. That first pamphlet was fairly technical. I mean it would use anatomical words rather than slang words, and that's partly because the tone of it was talking about Kaposi sarcoma and describing that sort of thing. So that was part of it, and by the front cover I think it was a fairly serious pamphlet aimed to communicate information. I can't remember seeing early public-health stuff, but I know that AIDS Support Network people like Ray would be wanting it to be blunt and direct, and I guess we got around to that, too. And there were campaigns: the penis dressed in a condom and all that sort of thing, so there was an easing, there was a shift in how clinical the information needed to be, so I think it had become blunter and more direct. Gareth: At this time in the '80s were you quite involved in the church? Ralph: That came and went. At about the time David was dying, '85 [sic], I'd really dropped out. So, I'd been strongly involved in the late '70s, early '80s. I went through a period of not being terribly involved, and then once David had died – it seems odd but once David had died I really returned to the church. Gareth: Can you describe the church's reaction to HIV/AIDS in those early years? Ralph: The local church was unsupportive. There were two nuns, Sisters of Compassion, Sister Sue and Sister Francie, who were involved in the early days of the AIDS Support Network. They're a community of nuns that, if I've got it right, were dedicated to health issues, and they got involved in the AIDS Support Network. The Bishop at the time forbade them to be involved, and I was absolutely appalled and I wrote to the Bishop saying that what you've ordered is absolutely disgusting. These women were dah-di-dah-di-dah, and furthermore, for God's sake, if you're going to have anything to say about homosexuality or AIDS in the future, don't use Father " X" as your spokesperson. [laughs] Gareth: Just rounding out this chat about HIV and AIDS, did you at the time think it would become what it's become now? Ralph: I think we knew bad news was on the way, and before some of the drug companies really got into research and development of medication there was a period where I thought it was going to be a huge toll worldwide. Now, I mean I know it has been. You only have to look at the AIDS Quilt Project and so forth; it's been terrible. But it's perhaps not developed in the gay community in the West to the extent that I might have once feared, so that now, I mean my compassion goes out to the populations of southern Africa where there are three in five people infected with HIV. It's just colossal. And of course some people – God help us – some people say that's God's way of controlling the population level. It makes you weep. I don't believe in a God who operates like that. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 178
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/educating_gays.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003833
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089127
TITLE: Educating Gays
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Shane Town; Stuart Douce
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Shane Town; Stuart Douce; Wellington; Wellington College; coming out; education; employment; gay; health; homosexual law reform; mental health; programme; school; suicide; teaching; transcript online; youth
DATE: 27 February 1999
YEAR: 1999
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast we explore what it's like to be gay at school - both as a student and as a teacher at the end of the 20th Century.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 1 January 2014
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Voice 1: I often feel sort of left out of things, simply because I don't get the chance to express myself properly. I don't feel, when I'm in class, that I can be myself. I'm constantly thinking or constantly checking myself to make sure I don't spill the beans. Voice 2: Being a queer educator is like walking a tightrope all the time because you have to manage other people's insecurities about sexuality, and it might be insecurity about their own sexuality or their insecurities about their interrelationships and interactions with you as a queer educator, and so you are always running a sort of metacognitive type discourse in your head to manage every situation. And that sort of thing came out very strongly with the young men that I interviewed in my thesis, is that from the time they were 13 or 14, even younger for some of them - between 10 and 12 - they realized that there sexuality was transgressing some idea of normal, and that they were on the wrong side of that idea of normal. And they developed these ways of managing through talking it through in their own heads, and that was all their private knowledge. They kept all of that to themselves, and keeping that sort of knowledge private and splitting it to a public persona that isn't connected to it is emotionally devastating, I guess. Voice 3: When I was 13 I tried to kill myself. Like, I've known from when I was about 11 or 12 years old. One day I just cried and cried and cried for hours, I was just so upset. I guess it was because there was this guy that I liked and I had a crush on, and I just was so upset I couldn't tell anyone or anything, which was really bad. Then when I was 13 I actually knew that I was gay, and was really depressed and tried to kill myself. Voice 4: I'd like to think that I'll identify myself as a teacher who happens to be gay, just like a teacher who happens to be married or a teacher who happens to be heterosexual and single. So yeah, I definitely would like to think that I'll be a good role model for gay people because I certainly wish that I'd had one, a gay teacher when I was at school that was out and that I could relate to. That would have been really beneficial to me. So I will definitely make every opportunity to sort of be out in a positive way in the school, definitely, because it's just so important that people are out, particularly when you're dealing with young people so they've got some decent role models to look up to. Voice 2: I trained as a secondary school teacher at Christchurch in 1984, and I was about 21 at the time, and then started at Heretaunga College in 1985, which was the beginnings of the heated debate in the law reform [laughs]. And I didn't come out to my students at first. I ended up being on the front cover of Pink Triangle for a massage centerfold. The Pink Triangle magazine itself happened to be exhibited at the Wellington Trade Fair, and it was one of those trade fairs where everybody who visited it had to go past every single stall. And the second point was, at that trade fair there was a huge argument because the gay community had gotten a stand there that they had misrepresented themselves to get, and not told the organizers that they were a gay stand, and when it arrived and they set it up, there was a huge outcry to try and get it taken down. And I remember turning around in the May school holidays and looking at Today Tonight and the debate was being interviewed on there, and my face on the magazine flashed up on national TV - or regional TV, I guess it was at that stage. I can remember dropping the dinner plate [laughs], and thinking, oh God, this is going to have major implications for me when I go back to school. And of course, it did. What now I can look back quite fondly on, at the time was really rather traumatic, and the students reacted in very different ways. The students which I taught didn't really seem to have a problem. My 6th form did; they didn't talk to me for three weeks, which made teaching them very difficult, but they eventually sort of came around and we got on. The younger forms just used it as a way of being able to abuse me and challenge the discipline in the classroom and around the grounds. I could manage some form of control in my classroom, but I had to sort of put up with daily abuse from students which I didn't teach, from around the grounds, calling out faggot, homo, don't bend over now; here comes Mr. Town, type stuff. And that was very difficult because you feel very isolated in your school as a gay teacher, and you often don't feel that you can utilize the channels of discipline that might operate within a school because nobody in a leadership position has ever stood up and said this sort of behavior is not okay; it's not okay to abuse somebody because of their sexuality. And so you tended to try - or I did - to deal with it on my own, and that probably wasn't the best way of managing that, you know? I pretended that everything was fine in my classroom and around the grounds and so forth. And it sort of raised another issue. I also thought that by coming out in the school that suddenly there'd be lots of young gay male students who'd come running up to me for support and help, and I could do the positive gay role model thing. And from a distance maybe I achieved that, but I don't know who those gay students were. It was never safe enough for them to approach me, and if they were seen with me it was guilt by association and then they were at risk in the school environment themselves. Voice 1: The most difficult thing about being at school is hiding it. It can just be really tough sometimes, and you also encounter a lot of homophobia and people using the word faggot or queer or gay and not really thinking about using the term. And you can't say don't say that, it's not PC to say that sort of thing, because you'll out yourself and people will mock you, and it's not nice being mocked. Voice 4: I think the biggest issues that gay people face in education is having a voice and being included in everyday discussion and activities. So, when teachers are teaching subjects, particularly in, say, the health area where they're talking about relationships and marriage and sex, do they include gay people as well instead of it being a boy/girl thing the whole time? Like, in history lessons if they mention famous people in history that were gay, just as they mention famous people in history that were straight, which comes about when they were married or whatever. So, I think including the valuable and interesting history we have on gay people and just making the curriculum far more inclusive of gay people, as they are making it inclusive for people of other cultural backgrounds. Voice 1: There are plenty of support groups in Wellington. There are heaps, and I'm the only student at Wellington College who goes to any of these support groups - the only student in a school of 1,250 students. You can't tell me that one out of every 1,250 people is gay. There are more than that to my school. But they don't put up any posters, they don't offer any support, they don't talk about it, and the classes that they came to - we have a health in 4th form - and homosexuality was not mentioned once by any teacher in that entire year, or what was a third of a year. The rest of the year we did craft work. But in that entire time the teachers didn't mention being gay at all, and it's 4th form and people at this age are drinking, they're having sex and they're struggling with their sexuality, and gay students need to be able to reach out and be normal, because if you're different you do shy away from things, and if you can't get acceptance and you don't have other people who are like you around you, it's very difficult. And it makes you more abnormal, I think. Some people must go through college and will go through secondary school and they will struggle with their identity because they don't know anyone else who is like them, and the only images they see are on television, and some of them, quite frankly, are not very accurate. Not all gay men prance around in dresses like they do in Priscilla, Queen of the Desert. Not all gay men are like that. Voice 3: Well, I saw myself at school, and also now, as a stereotype breaker, whereas a lot of people think that gay guys are all feminine, carry handbags, dress up in girl's clothing, and so on, and I just didn't want to be a part of that. And people would see that, look, he's gay but he's not feminine, and that just meant a lot to me because I knew I wasn't feminine and I didn't want people thinking that I was. Voice 2: In lots of ways I think it's more difficult. [laughs] How ironic! We've got everybody telling us we've got all that you ever asked for. You've got the Homosexual Law Reform; you've got equal rights under the Human Rights Legislation; and here I am saying, well, actually I think it's more difficult. One is because you're talking about young males who are seeing lots of images of gay and lesbian people and transsexuals on TV, as mayors: The Hero Parade, The Sydney Mardi Gras, something like 57 American sitcoms that have all got gay characters in them, so they are able to see who they are at a much younger age than I could in Masterton when I was growing up. And they also can see all of those possibilities, but at the same time there's this lovely acceptance out there on the media screen, and et cetera, everybody's using the word faggot in their school ground; everybody's beating up on everybody else because they're a poofter. Nobody is sitting them down and talking to them about homosexuality in terms of its social, its political implications, its context, its identity issues, and so they are still carrying it with them, but there's this enormous pressure that they need to identify who they are. And so you've got young gay males knowing at 10 and 11 and 12 that they're gay, which is the difference, I think, from when I was going through school; you could delay it really easily until you were 18 or 19, or more easily, perhaps. It's false to probably compare the experiences, but it's very different coming out in the '90s, and whereas people might think it's easier, there's more support, if I was still growing up in Masterton in the '90s there's no change; it's no different from when I was there. And that's represented in the fact that schools do not, still, broach these issues. When homosexuality is talked about in schools it's so often talked about within the sexual health curriculum and within HIV AIDS education or STDs, and, oh yeah, here's homosexuality. You know? In the interviews with young men that I did, they spoke very strongly about the fact that they left school thinking that they were going to die of AIDS, that was the only future that they had, and they expressed that very strongly. And so we need sexuality within the curriculum to come out of that context. It needs to be dealt with there, too, because there are issues about safe sex, but issues of sexual identity are not about sexual behavior, you know? And we need to start talking about those sorts of things. Voice 1: We don't talk about it much, really, in classwork. It's not talked about at all. The only subject that it is talked about in is Classical Studies, and that's simply because Romans and Greeks were very often bisexuals. They slept with whoever they wanted to, and they did have a culture of sleeping with people of the same sex. And they were just liberated. They didn't have any of this.... We're taught that they don't have any of the Christian pretense, the whole thing that sex is a sacred act and must be for procreation, and that sex is sinful. And when it's discussed in class it was a non-issue for them, and I sort of agree. I think it's become too much of an issue in Western society. I mean, there are gay people and there are heterosexual people and there are bisexual people and there are transgender people and there are all sorts of people, so get over it! They're just people who are no different to you, they just have different feelings and emotions. Voice 4: Being gay and being at Teacher's College I think is a real advantage because I've had so much experience of being an unrecognized, hated minority group, and having to deal with that. So I guess I'm quite a human rights activist now in terms of just being aware of what other people are facing and being totally inclusive for everybody, not making assumptions about anybody's background, identity, beliefs, values, or experiences, and trying to treat everybody as equal and trying to help with building self-esteem from everybody from all walks of life and making them realize that their experiences, whatever they are, are just as valid as anybody else's. So, being gay definitely gives me a big insight into seeing all those things, which I think if you're not gay or not from another cultural background having to fit into some other sort of lifestyle or way of life, then you'd never get to face that. So, it gives you an interesting outlook. Voice 3: Back when I was in 6th form I was the youngest in my form by quite a few months, and I was getting hassles in class, not about being gay, but just hassles in general. So I went to the guidance counselor really depressed and had a talk to the guidance counselor about how I'd been depressed all through the summer. All through the school holidays I just slept until about 2:00 or 3:00 in the afternoon every day. Yeah, just depressed, in general, right through the holidays, then at school I was just really depressed I was getting hassled. So I went to the guidance counselor and it took me a while to tell him, but I ended up telling him that I wasn't completely straight. I told him that I thought I liked girls but I also liked guys, at first, because it was easier to say that than to just say I'm gay. And he got in contact with the Gay Switchboard and I ended up going to Icebreakers. It all happened really quickly, actually. It was like Thursday, and then Friday I was at Icebreakers. I was a bit young for that but they made an exception, which was really good. I don't know what I would have done if they hadn't. When I told my friend about me being gay, I sort of hinted to him about it before I told him completely. I actually told him in English class one day, and he was okay with it and then we had long talks about it and that, which was cool. And then my other friends I told about it so that they wouldn't hear about it through rumors. I found it was better for me to tell them directly than for them to hear a rumor and then come and ask me. And all my friends took it well. There was no problems there. But when I told my mum that I was gay, I sort of went into her room and sat down and we had a talk and I said, " Mum, I've got something to tell you," and I told her that I was gay and she just didn't say anything, which I found really scary. And then I actually started crying because, like, she just had no reaction or anything and didn't say anything. And I was so annoyed with my mum that I just left home for the day and came back later in the night and she sat down with me and said that they're all old and lonely and full of diseases and that I don't want to live like that, and all that sort of rubbish. And I just thought: thanks mum; this is me you're talking about. And since then she's had four years to get used to it now, which was pretty cool. I actually went up to the Hero Parade last weekend and she actually said to me, the day before I went up, " Have a good time up there," which I thought was really cool. It's very unusual for my mum to say something like that. Voice 4: I have no idea how I'm going to handle gay students when I go into schools. I'll probably be very nervous and it will just be quite scary to begin with because I'm quite aware if I'm sort of out there as a gay role model then it's quite likely that I'll have students come up to me and say: I'm gay and I don't know what to do, or, I'm gay and whatever, whatever. So, I realize I'll have to be very careful about what you do do; like, we've been given instructions that we're never even allowed to be in a classroom alone with one other student. As teachers we have to be very, very careful about personal dealings with students, so it will be a quite tricky balancing act, but no doubt I'll learn as I go and hopefully it will work good. Voice 2: I think there's an advantage to gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered students to see out gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered teachers. And it took me awhile to realize that even though gay male students didn't approach me while I was teaching while I was out, they knew I was there; and knowing somebody is there and knowing somebody is bouncing around being relatively cheerful and happy and being - I hate using the word normal, but that has a really positive effect. It shows that you can live into adulthood, and one of the big issues in New Zealand is youth suicide. And for many young gay men, they can't see that they can live into adulthood and be happy. So, for kids to see that in school is really powerful and positive. It also sort of raises issues, I guess, about the idea of normalization. What so many gay and lesbian teachers do is appear to be as normal as possible, and I have a problem with that in some ways because I think the idea of normal, and the lack of our schools' ability to manage difference of any sort, is crucial here. And so, I could get away being a gay teacher because I wore trousers [laughs]. I dyed my hair occasionally, and I had my ears pierced, but I wasn't overtly camp or effeminate. And so there is still, with the gay stuff that's coming out now, a total problem with overt or with the stuff that confounds gender. I've been corresponding with a young boy from the South Island who had real transgender issues, and he was basically almost killed by his peer group. He was physically pushed out in front of traffic and down stairs because he wants to transgender. He was 14 when he was first having those feelings. Now, he ended up being home schooled for the rest of his secondary schooling. And those transgender feelings are still with him. My question is: Why are our schools not able to make themselves safe for students like that? Why can those differences not be tolerated? Voice 4: I definitely think I will end up going out of my way to actively promote gay issues. It's almost an addiction I have, I guess. I just can't help myself. Every time I see some anti-gay letter in the Letters to the Editor, I'll be writing in a reply. I think it'll be a wonderful opportunity to promote inclusiveness and a better understanding of gay people, because we're still fighting a battle, and the more people that fight the battle the more we can achieve. And I think education and young people is a good place to start, particularly from my experience working with gay people through Icebreakers, as it's those people that need the help the most and they're not actually getting it, because they're the ones that face the suicidal thoughts and the depression and all those other issues when they're already going through a million-and-one changes through adolescence. So, to me they're the most critical people to educate, particularly the young people who have same-sex feelings, because they are the people in need, as I see it. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 146
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/ivan_yeo_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003858
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089152
TITLE: Ivan Yeo profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ivan Yeo
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; Auckland; Ivan Yeo; Malaysia; Rainbow Touchstones; depression; gay; health; mental health; transcript online
DATE: 2 May 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Ivan talks about growing up gay in Malaysia.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 1 January 2014
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Ivan Yeo: I'm Ivan, and I'm from Malaysia. I've been here in New Zealand about 10 years, and I am Chinese. So basically, I'm Chinese but I grew up in Malaysia. And it was back in probably the early '80s when I found out that I'm gay, and it really had a huge impact on how I viewed myself growing up in a Muslim country, and also a very traditional Chinese family. I think the biggest thing for me was finding out who I am. There were these really intense fears of letting people know who you are, because then, as a society, you wonder how it would be once you've been ostracized and are not being included as a part of the society. And I think the biggest fear I had was not [being] sure what my future was going to be like when I grew up, and when there's time when I need to fulfill my family obligations such as getting married and having children, especially when I was in a family where I am the only son in the family, and I have three elder sisters. So that notion of fulfilling my obligation as a son was strongly held, not necessarily in my family but in how the society has portrayed male characters in the context of society from TV, from newspapers. And I never asked my parents, was it their expectations that I would need to fill that kind of role? We never discussed it. So it was sort of my assumption that that is what my parents would want me to do, especially when I was a teenager and people start asking you, do you have a girlfriend? And when you became an adult people ask you when you're going to get married. And when you say you don't have a girlfriend, people sort of look at you like oh, what is wrong with you? And they're sort of teasing you about it: oh, do you want me to introduce you to a girlfriend? So especially when you have all the extended family living in the similar area, you do catch all of them from time to time, and the eventual conversations that will come out, they ask you when you are going to find a girlfriend, really disturbed me because I keep reminding myself what sort odds I was against. And also, to know who I can talk to. Even though I told my sisters about my sexual orientation when I was about 16 or 17, there seems to be belief that it is just a phase you will pass through after awhile, so it never got fully acknowledged that that would be my life. And when you only see what it is being offered in a society, you really don't know what else is out there, and that was the biggest challenge. Gareth: At what age did you realize that you liked men? Ivan: From a very early age, but I think that was more subconsciously. During the ages of six or seven, I knew I always liked to be closer to men than women. And I also know that when I was about eight or nine, I really liked watching TV that had very strong male characters, like the Magnum PI show and all that – I really liked that. Now when I look back I know why I liked it so much, but at the time I was also really attracted to the physical male body, the muscular masculinity and all that. So I knew I was different from a very early age. Gareth: And when you were around that age, can you recall anything that was being said by people around you about gays and lesbians? Ivan: No, not so much, but somehow in the society you still get that kind of teasing about either being too feminine, or those subtle remarks that make it seem to be unacceptable for any male to be too close to another man. For me, I was really tiny and skinny and growing up with three sisters; that probably made my behavior seem to be a little bit feminine, and I was getting teased about that from very early childhood. And also the questions being asked about why I didn't behave like a normal man; I'm not too sure what a normal man is, but I'm also not very interested in what the society perceives men as good at, like sports. I hate sports. The reason I hate sports is because I was being teased by a schoolteacher and my peers about how lousy I was. And there are certain things that I'm good at such as drawing, dancing and singing, so people were sort of comparing me to how a guy should be and suddenly I did not live up to those expectations as a man in Malaysian society. So you get a feeling like you need to be tough, you need to be mature, and it is my job to protect a female. From a very young age my father, because he's away, he always told me I needed to look after my mum and my sisters, even though I was the youngest. I don't know how that is possible, but it always seems to be my responsibility to ensure that they are okay. Gareth: Can you recall at that age any other children or any other young adults that could have been gay or lesbian? Ivan: Yes, I remember my uncle, which is my mother's older brother, he is a womaniser. And one time he brought this female to our place. I remember they wanted to use my mother's room – you know what they wanted to do. And so I remember my mum having a conversation with her friend and saying that that woman doesn't look like a woman. And I also remember when I was about the same age, my mum has a lawn so she always has friends come over, and this woman who was very tomboyish dressing and all that, and every time they left they would say something behind her [back], and say, " Oh, she's bringing another woman again. Don’t know what they're up to," and making casual remarks like, " She's doing another woman again." But in Malaysia we have these males dressing up as females, and also working on the backstreet, so again you hear all that conversation popping up now and then about so-and-so going to this street and visiting all the transgenders and paying them money just to feel them, and see whether it's free or not. Again those sorts of jokes or conversations came out when I got older. Because my mum knew a lot of people and has a lawn, it's always been like a small, social gathering that reflect on the wider society, and [from] the people that my mum hangs around you'd hear all these interesting conversations floating around. Gareth: In Malaysian culture are there specific words for gay, lesbian, transgender? Ivan: Yeah, in Malay they call it bondan. Bondan means the equivalent to the word sissy, but it has this very negative connotation, like you are not a man but act like a woman, and you are the lowest of the society. So people used that word to tease me, as well, so it was a really hurtful word. The word bondan in Chinese is called xiǎobáiliǎn. Xiǎobáiliǎn basically means " little white face." That means he's like a toy-boy, but again, it actually has much cynicism about the words. It means that you couldn't live as a man in society and fulfill your obligations to be the sole responsible male character in the family. It's talking about someone who asks for money from a female, so again it's a really hurtful word. Gareth: So, in being teased, what happened? How did you cope with that? Ivan: I wasn't happy. I mean, like I was scared to go to school because I knew how my day was going to end out. There was going to be a lot of teasing and being pushed around. And also I didn't like to go out with friends. Or even if I showed a little bit of anger or was having fights with my sisters, they would call me those words as well, so basically it taught me not to make people upset, because if people are upset they're going to call me those names and it was really hurtful. So I became really cautious and tried to please everybody so that I wouldn't be teased. And I even tried to add a little bit more maturity, and tried to hide certain behavior that has been pointed out by other people, so that they wouldn't see that I am a so-called bondan or sissy. And so I was constantly modifying my behavior so that I could match what other people expected as a male character in the society, and that was really hard because you're constantly trying to please your father or your sisters or your mate, and you forget about who you truly are as a person. Gareth: And did that work? Ivan: No, of course not! [laughs] I think coming to New Zealand, I was really able to embrace myself, because if people want to talk about a feminine side I do have my very sensitive and very feminine side, but I also have a very male orientated character, which now I'm able to recognize. I wouldn't want to put it in those contexts, because it's not about sexes, but what I'm saying is that I'm able to recognize that I have a so-called balance. I'm very sensitive; I'm very emotional and also very empathetic, as well, so I recognize that as a gift now instead of seeing it as something that made me a weak person. But on the other hand, I also know that I'm very driven, I'm very goal orientated, and what I mean is that I'm also able to do a lot of handyman work. I like getting myself busy with technology or even some homemade cabinets, and all that. And so, I'm able to embrace both sides, and having both as a balance in my life. Gareth: If you had stayed in Malaysia could you have come out as a gay person? Ivan: No way. Really, I did not know what to do, but having said that, the society also grew and developed at the same time. I've heard from people saying that now there's more gay sauna in Malaysia, as well, and there's a bar that you can meet other gay people, and an Internet site, but it's still very hidden. So I might be able to go to those places, yet I would never be able to reveal who I am as Ivan to other people. I would always be the guy who's 30-something and haven't had a girlfriend and not married, and everybody would be talking behind my back. Here everybody knows I'm gay and no one sees it as an issue, and they just see Ivan as Ivan. I'm also able to live the life that I want, which is having a partner, and I'm also able to recognize my own unique identity and am able to share it with friends and people who really care about me. And I think the most important thing is now my family knows my sexual orientation and they also embrace it, and also they like my partner. I think the harder things for any hidden secret is you cannot be honest with people you love, and you cannot share the joy and the hardship you have in your life. When I broke up with my previous partner, I was able to call home and cry, and told my mum why life is so hard, and all that. That was great, because when I first broke up with my first boyfriend I couldn't tell anyone. I had to hide my emotions because family will pick up on that, and [ask] why you look so sad, but you cannot say: I just broke up with my first boyfriend. But at least at the time I had just broken up with my ex-partner, I was able to call my mum and tell my mum a relationship is hard. And I also asked my mum, really, questions like, " Am I really that ugly?" or " Am I really not worth any love?" And I was also able to talk to my sisters, so that was amazing. Even now, every time I call my mum and my sisters they will always ask, " Oh, so how is Gerry?" They will be interested to find out what Gerry's doing, what I'm doing, what we both are doing. So it's a great feeling when you finally feel that you can really feel like being part of the family instead of always having a second thought that you can only share a certain part of your life, but not the whole of your life. Gareth: Can we just go back a wee bit to when you were growing up in Malaysia? You were saying that you were being teased. How did that progress; how did you get through those feelings? And how did you meet your first boyfriend? Ivan: I really have to say I hated school so much that my results drop really badly as I was growing older because I just don't like school. I tried to find excuses not to go to school. For me, I would try even to hide myself and make myself as invisible as possible so I'm not going to be picked on, I'm not going to be teased, and no one is going to look at me. It works, and I have to say that if I think back to my school years, I can only have some very vague memories. But a lot of things people say, like they had friends they grew up with together, I never had. And how I met my very first boyfriend was when I went to the north part of Malaysia because of my father. I was able to meet a group of friends who really got along really well, and I had this friend, who is one of the closest, and altogether we had like six people as a group, and he always seemed very moody and he always seemed angry at me. Sometimes he was really close to me, but I have to say I had a crush on him and I did not know how to tell him. But I knew he always seemed to really care about me, and also sometimes could just flip around and totally ignore me, and I did not know what I had done. After about a year-and-a-half, my father decided to move us back to my hometown, which is in south Malaysia, and during the holiday break, because I missed him so much, I said I wanted to go and visit him. I told people I wanted to visit the group of friends, but he was the main reason. So I went over, and he really wanted me to stay with him and we both stayed together. And there was a late night and we started having this conversation, and I remember he sort of asked me, " If you have a really big secret and you want to share it with someone, what would you do?" I said I would just tell the person, just be really honest and tell the other person how you feel. And then I also started saying that I had a secret, as well, so we just started having this game, and somehow we were both able to acknowledge that we had feelings for each other for some time. That was my first love, and that was like the best day ever to be able to find someone and you both have a mutual feeling. But at the same time it was really hard because we had to be really secretive, and when you have such mixed emotions and we were such a young age, I still didn't know how to cope with leaving the place and being unable to see him again or know when I'm going to see him again, and all that, so that was a really hard time, yeah. But I'm very grateful that I had that experience, because that just reaffirmed what I really wanted in my life, which is being true to myself and able to find someone who loved me and to be able to share that mutual love. Gareth: What age were you then? Ivan: I was only 16. Yeah, that was like 21 years ago. [laughs] So, you can figure out how old I am. But that was really amazing, and also able to find out that actually he had the same feelings towards me. But the hardest thing, as I mentioned before, is that you cannot share that with your friends. I remember I told one of my very close schoolmates at school when I came back, and her first reaction is, eeww! And I was really sad because I thought she was my best friend, and she sort of told me that it would pass, it's just a phase, and I was really devastated. Again, all these little, small things just reaffirm what you already believe, which is you're not going to be able to live the life that you want. Gareth: Were you having conflict within yourself in terms of not wanting to be gay, or were you quite happy being gay but it was just society that didn't particularly like that? Ivan: Those are very good questions because the fact is, I know I am gay and I also know that I have no interest, at all, to a female. My friends now ask me: if I can have sex with a female or a very ugly elephant-man, who would I pick? I say the very ugly elephant-man. And they also say that they haven't met any gay people, as in such an extreme. I also tell people that if I was having sex with a female, I would see myself as a lesbian. What that means is that I really have never been able to see a female as the opposite sex. And I think for some people it might be really hard to understand, but sometimes when you have such a strong feeling about who you are, of course I wouldn't be able to make myself sleep with another female. So, I'm very sure, and very sure that I'm only interested in men and in male relationships. Also, the only problem that I saw was that society wasn't able and not ready to accept that, and that taught me a lot, a great deal of humanity, because I think if it's not breaking the law of the society, any love is acceptable. And even just to go down to racial tension, as well, at the end of the day whether you're bisexual, homosexual or so-called straight, love is equal. When you love someone, you want to be with someone, everybody should have the right to do so. So I was really lucky that I came to New Zealand and New Zealand has the law that recognizes same-sex relationships. And I'm really grateful, especially as someone coming from a Muslim country and able to have the same rights is amazing. Gareth: In Malaysia at the time were there laws against homosexuality? Ivan: Yes. Anyone found out as having a male relationship will be punished. That actually happened. At least 20 years ago when the Deputy of Prime Minister was being accused of having a same-sex relationship with someone, he was being sentenced to jail. And that's just one example. So, it is against the law of a Muslim country, and in Malaysia, as well. Having said that, in my experience I knew there were a lot of hidden scenes, because I was at one of them, and how people were having unsafe sex and meeting in places that were unsafe as well. And I really feel for people who have to go through that, because I was in that kind of environment too. And you know sometimes when you do things just because of the physical needs, and after you fulfill your need you start thinking about what you're doing, it's quite scary, too, because quite often I might put myself in danger. I would not want to, but because I felt like I didn't have that kind of opportunity as being equal in what society was providing, so I had to do everything underground so that I would not get caught and so forth. Gareth: So, how did that relationship with your first boyfriend go? Ivan: [laughs] It went really bad, because I think we both felt the same. Having such a strong feeling at the age of 16, and the distance between me and him was almost like Auckland and Christchurch in New Zealand, so we can only communicate through letters. And letters are not safe, especially what you're putting on the piece of paper. So his sister discovered his letters and in the end we had to call off the relationship because his sister told her mum. And we both were really devastated. I know I was feeling very depressed. I missed him so much. I was still studying in school and my parents didn't want me to move back to Ipoh, which is in the northern part of Malaysia, and they still didn't understand why I wanted to move there. And he cannot leave the family because he's the oldest of the three children, so he has the obligation to look after his father's business. So in the end we just had to break it off, and that also made me believe at the time, I really wondered, but I also knew that it wasn't going to happen. So I really appreciate what I have now. What I have now is impossible! I never thought I could ever have the life that I dreamed of years ago, and I think I am truly blessed. Regardless of what kind of hardship I went through, in the end I still think it's worth it. Gareth: So, around that age did you have any idea that there were different ways of living in different countries? Ivan: Not really. I mean, we'd sort of get news in certain stages, like seeing how overseas or Europeans started recognizing same-sex relationships. For me, I was just like, this is impossible. How can that be? And of course, the news was also being announced from Malaysia and Singapore and all that, and again, even when people were talking about that it seemed to be something really disgusting and unbelievable: how can someone give those people those rights? So it just sounded impossible, or something that, because they would also talk about how opposition was really angry about the proposals or legislation or something, you thought that would never go ahead, as well. I can’t remember the very first country that actually had the legislation passed through, but I was just so amazed, and by the same token, I also knew that that was only happening in certain parts of the country. And that was when I started thinking about leaving Malaysia, and also, probably, if I could find a way to go to the country, I might be able to do that. But I also did not know how to do it. I didn't know that you can get so-called permanent residence and become a citizen and all that, so again, all that was just like a dream. And during that time there was no such a thing as the Internet, so it's not like now where you can just Google it and find out heaps of information, how to get to where you wanted. And I do have that circle of friends who have been overseas and were able to get permanency overseas as well, but for me it was still like a dream at the time. Gareth: But there is a point where that dream becomes a reality, and you came to New Zealand. What were your thoughts? Suddenly you've got this whole kind of gay and lesbian culture just actually out in the open. Ivan: Oh, I honestly think when you suddenly have so much freedom, the first thing you do is you really abuse your freedom [laughs], so I totally put myself out there. I mean, like, from nothing to suddenly you can have the sweets; you want to make sure you have all of them because you don't know when you're going to get hungry again or not going to have the opportunity to eat a sweet again. So that was really out of control. I basically just did anything that I could, and again, there was a real learning curve because then I learned to know that I had to have a balance. I did do a lot of stupid things or fun things at that time. But I also very much wanted to stay in New Zealand, and what really helped me through was my study, because the paper I was doing included sociology and reading about the background of how New Zealand came to accept gay relationships and all of that. So I knew I found a place I can finally call home and finally feel like I could be equally given and provided the same rights as everybody else, and that was a relief and an amazing feeling that finally I didn't have to carry the weight of my life from now on. I could finally just let it go and put it down. And yeah, that was truly the most amazing feeling that anyone could have. And that also made me really appreciate New Zealand, as well, and seeing how, by providing the same rights, people are able to grow and learn and equally contribute to the society instead of feeling like they have to constantly hide themselves. I mean, like, when I was in Malaysia, even as an adult I was still trying to minimize my behavior and still trying to just be able to coast by, and not thinking about what else I could do, what is my potential; whereas right now I would ask myself what else I want to do, where is my potential? I still want to grow; I still want to do more, whereas before I was just waiting for the time when finally everything would be finished. Gareth: Can you talk a wee bit about the ideas of being gay and whether it's just gay sex or whether it's a gay lifestyle, living with partners. In Malaysia did you have any kind of concept that you could actually live a completely gay life, or was it very much just kind of sex acts? Ivan: I think I've talked about this before when I was in school and the schoolteacher asked everybody what they wanted to be when they grew up. My answer was actually to become a housewife, but I knew I couldn't tell that, people were going to tease me about it, so I just made up something. I can't remember what I said. But that is the natural instinct of what I want, which is a life where I have a husband, and where I can have children, where I can be in love and equally share my love with someone. At that age, of course, you didn't think about sex, but as you grow older, as you physically change and hormonally change and all that, I started having the craving of intimate relationships with men. And I think that's a very natural human instinct, as well. The only difference is that the person I'm thinking about is male instead of female. The curiosity that I have is how it felt being kissed by a man, how it felt being held by a man, and how it felt being in love in a relationship with a man. I saw all three of my sisters go through relationships with their boyfriends, and I envied it so much! You know, you see them getting married, dressed-up, having that pre-imposed relationship, so of course, not just sex. What I call the lifestyle is having a companionship where you know it will create a safe haven where you can go home and relax and be yourself with the person that you love and care the most for, and create the life that you want. And that really speaks about me and my partner. Sometimes I have a very bad day at work or something gets me down, but I know this person is waiting for me at home when I come home; that gave me the safe feeling that I needed. So that is how I would describe about everything. [laughs] Gareth: So, do you think you'll ever go back and live in Malaysia? Ivan: No way. I've thought about that, and I was very clear with my parents as well. I told my parents, " Look, if I'm here with Gerry, our relationship is recognized. If anything happens, we have the right to whatever that I need to be done, but if we go back to Malaysia our relationship will not be recognized. So, it doesn't mean a thing for our relationship, and if anything happened there would not be the same mechanism that we can sort out with each other whatever needed to happen during that time." So I was very clear with my family. And one of my sister's sons just recently came out, as well, and said that he's gay. And my sister, the first thing she asked me was, " What do you reckon?" And I said, " First, I want you to know it's not a phase. It is what it is. Forget about whether he could change. Love him and treat him equally as your other son." And I also told my sister, " Look, the best is when we both will be able, financially, to get him overseas, and let him have the same opportunity." And I was really grateful that my sister was able to accept it immediately, and also able to recognize that it is all right. Probably it will be a little bit difficult if he is still in Malaysia, so we will try and find a way to let him be educated in an overseas country, and able to do what I'm doing now. So again, even my sister also recognized that being gay in Malaysia will be really hard for him, and her heart was aching, those were her words, knowing what I'd had to go through and now seeing her son have to go through the same thing. But at the same time she felt some comfort knowing first-hand that you can still be who you are at the end of the day, you just need to have some plan of what you're going to do in order to enable and facilitate that human's growing process that is not going to damage the individual. Gareth: That must be very hard to have to leave your home country, knowing that there's probably not going to be a way of your getting back with your partner. Ivan: Yes, it is. And it was really hard, as well, when you think about it, because you know you're not going to have the same opportunity as other people. Let's say my partner is a female; at least we can look at a way, if there is going to be a better opportunity in Korea, or whatever, that we can go there and do it. Of course we can still do it, but that means a lot of things would need to be changed, like when we go out, besides our family I cannot introduce Gerry as my partner. He would suddenly become just a friend who is flatting with you. And then he would become this funny old friend that goes to whatever places you go to, together with you. So, that's not going to be healthy when you have to hide something – especially something so important in your life. In New Zealand at least we both are being recognized as a couple, and are able to do things together and we do not fear how that's going to have repercussions in our life. But also, feeling sad knowing that I will have to leave my mum, my father and my sisters behind, and missing a lot of big occasions such as the Chinese New Year, or seeing my nephew and nieces growing up. And sometime a few years ago I was finally able to put that aside, because I always felt quite sad when I'd think that I wouldn't be able to be a part of their lives, because I love my sister's sons and daughters and am certainly missing out on a lot of that kind of joy. But again, I just have to accept the fact that sometimes you gain something, sometimes you lose something. Yeah, there's always some sacrifice that I will have to make from time to time. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 205
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ATL REF: OHDL-003842
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089136
TITLE: The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Greg; John Greager; Richard King; Stuart Douce
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Greg; John Greager; Richard King; Stuart Douce; Wellington; coming out; gay; icons; labels; media; movies; programme; radio; stereotypes; television; transcript online
DATE: 18 July 1998
YEAR: 1998
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast a group of men reflect on the first time they saw a gay character on television or in a film.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 1 January 2014
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Voice 1: Gay people don't kiss, they don't touch each other, they just meet each other anonymously, they don't even know each other's names, and they have anal sex all the time and they have approximately 400 sexual partners per year and they have unsafe sex all the time and they're all full of diseases. Voice 2: To me, the stereotypical gay person was effeminate, limp-wristed, sneaky or vicious, brittle, unstable. Voice 3: I remember watching a film called Blackmail, and it concerned a barrister in England. He was certainly married and he had a family and he was involved in a murder. He himself wasn't involved in it, but I think what happened was he had picked up a young man somewhere in London, who was gay, and they had gone off together, and of course, his wife didn't know about this. And then I think the guy was killed or murdered, and he then started to receive, through the mail, sort of A-4 sized envelopes with these large photographs of him, and they were photographs of him with this boy, or this young man, rather. And whoever it was that was sending him the photographs was blackmailing him, because of course it was set in the time – I think it must have been set in the '50s or '60s – when being gay, or at least doing homosexual acts, was illegal in Britain. And of course his family didn't know about it and he stood to lose a lot because he was an eminent barrister and so on. So that, I'm pretty sure, was the first thing I saw on television or on film about somebody being gay. And I remember watching it with my mother, and I remember her turning around to me and saying to me, " I hope you're not homosexual." Voice 4: [groans] What is my identity? That's part of my problem; my identity tends to change according to the people I have around me. I don't know if that's generally true but it's certainly part of my make-up that I tend to reflect what's given to me by other people. Voice 2: I think as a boy I had a lot of fear and anxiety, and I think some of that relates back to what I was presenting to the world about being a boy, about being a boy and about doing things that boys did and about boy's activities and approaches to the world. Voice 3: When I was growing up I guess the images of being gay were, on the whole, a lot more negative. They certainly weren't encouraging you to, well, even if you could choose being gay you wouldn't choose it because it was really a lifestyle of derision and comedy. All the characters you saw in sitcoms, for example, who were gay, were always people who were limp-wristed, had high squeaky voices, squealed, shrieked, screamed – generally very effeminate – and were the butt of everybody's jokes. And of course there were always jokes about fags and gays and so on, and that kind of person always seemed to be on the short end of that sort of joke. Insofar as people who weren't in comedy, there simply weren't that many. You see the odd film which deals with homosexuality in an overt way, but again there, I don't know if they're negative or positive but they're certainly pretty wrenching movies, and I'm thinking of movies, again, as the one I mentioned before, Blackmail. But there are some other movies. There's a very good movie called Boys in the Band, which is a 1970's movie and is all about a party at a guy's apartment in New York, and he invites a whole lot of acquaintances around and they're all different types of personality – they're all gay. But nobody is ever happy in it, unfortunately, and you kind of finish this movie, not feeling depressed, but thinking gosh, what a sort of sad bunch of people they are. Voice 2: I have this very strong memory, I suppose, of some kind of composite picture in my mind about what a gay person was. And I guess, reflecting back, the closest I can make it akin to would be a kind of Kenneth Williams kind of character, but probably even a bit wetter and more pathetic. I don't know where that picture came from, and I don't identify it with any kind of non-person because, to my knowledge, I'd never met another gay person, but it was carried around as a kind of image in my head, and it was a very negative image, obviously, but also a lot of fear around it in terms of not being like that [laughs], fear that I might be like that. And a lot of energy, I think, went into being not like that. Voice 4: If I think back into my earlier years, and I'm thinking now I suppose I would become aware of gay issues in the late '50s, '60s, and the only person that I can think of off the top of my head is Kenneth Williams, who was... he presented a sort of characterization that it was never actually stated openly that it was a gay character, but to those that knew the kind of innuendo that went on it was so obviously gay that it was untrue. But with him, it was a stereotype. It was kind of your gay, hysterical, bitchy queen kind of thing. Voice 2: That was what I knew that gays were like and I was terrified of being like that myself, so that was really not what I wanted to be at all, so that put me off for a long time. The idea of being gay and being like that was completely repulsive to me. Voice 1: I guess people that were lonely and maybe a bit sort of screwed up, not altogether, just weird, different, guys that wanted to be women, I guess; guys that dress up in women's clothes all the time and talk like women and act like women and want to be hairdressers when they grow up and people that are poofie and can't whistle and don't play sports. Yeah, just negative, negative, negative, negative. Every time I saw that word it was just scary and awful. Voice 3: I remember spending endless hours when I was around about 11, 12 or 13 – around that age, I guess – watching television quite late at night. I used to sit up and watch the Sunday horrors, which was one of the things I managed to persuade my parents into letting me watch. And among the films I watched quite late at night were... I tried to watch every movie I could that I thought might possibly have somebody in it who was gay or homosexual. And it was quite interesting because of course a lot of the movies didn't have anything. They seemed to have story lines which might be leading that way, but I guess what I was sort of screaming out for, or crying out for, was to have a gay character with whom I could identify because it was very difficult. I mean, there weren't films with gay characters. All the gay people you saw in films were sort of pink handbag swinging people in dresses and so on and so forth, and I knew that wasn't me. I knew that wasn't what I was all about, and I guess the only thing I could identify with at a very early age was the sexuality part of it rather than the lifestyle, because there was nothing when I was growing up and certainly in my early teenage years, of people who were gay and it was okay, and they lived normal lives or whatever lives they wanted to live. Voice 1: Everything I'd ever heard or seen about these homosexuals was negative. I just knew it was a bad thing. I can't work out how I knew; it must have been almost a subconscious thing that it was never, ever talked about. No one ever talked about it in a positive way. People at school would, if you did something that was maybe considered to be a bit sissy or not what was expected of a man or a boy or a male, that was sort of labeled as a homosexual act, whether it be if you tripped over or, I don't know, if you weren't going to go and play rugby. Yeah, it was always a negative term, and I knew that it was sinful and immoral according to the church. And the only images I had were people, men, who just wanted to have sex with other men in, like, public toilets and in parks, and they used to go and pick each other up in bars; almost people that were screwed up in terms of not living a proper lifestyle, which I thought was a man and a woman living together in a house in suburbia somewhere with two kids, a cat and a dog and a car. That was sort of the only image I had of how people were meant to live their life, so that when I started realizing that I wasn't going to fit this model, which was the only way of life that I knew of; that was quite scary. And I do remember – I would have been 14 or 15 – I made a decision once that I would just pretend to like a woman and get married and have kids and have a nine-to-five job and just sort of go and secretly relieve my urges with other men and just sort of meet them in secret and deal with it that way. Voice 5: I always saw myself as quite different. I didn't see myself in that swishy way at all, actually, and as I got older and I met other people like that I certainly didn't find them sexually attractive at all. I was always attracted, of course, to the First Fifteen and big butch boys. And in fact, when I left school I was 18, and my first sexual experience was getting picked up by a nancy-boy, a real femmy creature, in a public toilet in New Plymouth, which was a horrific experience – one that scarred me for years. I was just really curious and horny, I guess, and I wanted to know if this was what I was, and if this is something that I would find attractive and interesting to me and all those things. And he took me back to his place and I remember just shivering in fear and repulsion, but kind of letting him do things to me because I just wanted to go through with the experience and was probably too scared to leave anyway. But it was horrific to me and I didn't have sex for years and years after that. So, I suppose all those years of those kind of effeminate caricatures had obviously seeped in there and I was very prejudiced against them. Voice 2: I think I had this funny idea, this sort of really irrational idea, that if I admitted to myself and to the world that I was gay, I was somehow overnight going to turn into this strange kind of... that I was going to undergo some major personality shift, and that suddenly overnight I would become this kind of weird combination of characteristics and attributes that I had sitting in my head as what a typical homosexual gay person was. Voice 3: And I remember, when I was at school, being teased as a child or as a young teenager for being gay. People used to say to me, " You're gay," and I don't know if the kids really knew what it meant, but children have this peculiar way of picking on weaknesses or things that are different. And certainly as a child, as a young boy, I was perhaps a bit different to some of the other kids, although looking back now, not a lot different to some of the other kids there. But certainly what happens is you get a group of children and you get the strongest among them who end up being bullies, but also end up influencing the people who are easily influenced, and they end up picking on who they perceive to be the weakest in the group, or somebody who's different. And I was teased to some extent, and what that meant for me, because there was no assistance for me in the media – nothing which said to me: Hey, it's okay to be gay; it's all right if you're like this – I ended up developing, certainly when I went to high school, quite a different persona, so that by the time I did come out to my friends when I was about 16 or 17, at school, they were surprised – not shocked, but certainly surprised – that I was gay because I had spent a good three or four years turning their minds off that so that they wouldn't think I was gay, because that was the only way I was not going to be teased. I couldn't, when I was 13, say: Yes, well so what if I am gay? That's all right, isn't it? It just didn't work like that. I had to create a situation where people either didn't think about it at all or they didn't think I was gay. Voice 1: I think the way I sort of dealt with being gay when I was at university was to go and search out all the information I could on this homosexuality thing. I'd just go to the computers in a dark corner and type in gay into the computer, being really nervous and my hands shaking typing in those three letters. And then I'd go to the gay section and look at the books, and I'd take about five out and sit in the corner and just read the whole books, cover to cover, one after the other, and it used to take hours, and I used to go several nights a week until I'd read everything I could. And I'd look at the pictures, if they had pictures in them, and try and relate to the people in the pictures, and try to think, oh, he looks normal so maybe it's not such a bad thing. Voice 5: I remember being on holiday with my parents when I was in my early teens and going to the Bay of Islands and stealing that book, Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Sex But Were Afraid to Ask, from a bookshop and taking it with me to a public toilet across the road from the bookshop and devouring it. Especially I went straight to the chapter on homosexuality. I suppose I would have been 13 or something like that at that point. And, you know, it's quite a negative thing. It's really full of lots of very negative stuff about being gay and what the gay lifestyle is all about. So, I was fascinated by that, but obviously it was a bit disturbing to me as well. I can't really remember the details, but it was a lot about, I seem to remember, the whole promiscuity thing and anal sex and things that were described in a way that was sort of vaguely disgusting but with a slightly liberal standpoint on it. And the idea of multiple sex partners and not being able to find true love and being desperate for sex and all these sort of ideas that really I didn't want to hear, either, but I just believed them. I knew that this man was an expert and it must all be true. Voice 4: I suppose the most striking thing that I've observed is when a gay character has come into a mainstream kind of program, and I think that happened with Billy Crystal in that send up of soap operas called Soap. I think that was kind of a landmark occasion. You see, there's always been material around if you want to go and get it, both on film and in books. It's just a matter of knowing where to go and pursuing that sort of line. But for it to enter the mainstream as it did in Soap, even then Billy Crystal played that character as a totally natural person. Voice 1: It seems to me that every gay character in the film and movies is portrayed to appeal to straight people as opposed to maybe being a role model or being a gay person that gay people could actually relate to and think, oh, that's quite realistic, or wow, what a really cool person, or whatever. They just seem to cheapen the whole thing about gay people. Voice 3: In most programs you wouldn't see gay characters doing the things that you not only see, but expect straight characters to do. Voice 1: You never see the kissing, the touching, the stroking, the rubbing, the hugging, the licking; you never see any of the best parts of sex. Voice 3: If you saw gay people in films or on television – you very rarely saw them on television – they certainly weren't touching other gay people. There was no sexual contact. There was nothing overt about the person. It was fine to have a gay character, it was fine to have a gay person, so long as they didn't do anything. Voice 2: I suppose all these things just reinforced, in my mind, what I grew to believe that being gay was all about, really, which was pretty much a tragic lifestyle. It was something you really didn't want to tell your parents because you knew how upset they'd be because of all those things: you weren't going to have that warm family environment with children, and chances are you'd be some lonely old tragic thing who everybody despised. I mean, it's just the idea I think a lot of it was about being alone and furtive and scared and weak and a victim. I think a lot of it was all about those things, and there was no concept of love and respect and things which took me quite a while to learn were possible as well. Voice 4: The trouble is about presenting gay characters onstage or in film or in books, a lot of what came about in probably my formative years came through the American media. And America, to me, has never really reflected what's been natural in New Zealand. To be gay in America, you've got to form a political kind of stance. It's a political thing just as much as a lifestyle thing. Voice 3: The other film which I think has had a profound effect on me was Torch Song Trilogy, which I didn't see until I think I was around 18. It was when I moved to Wellington and went to university. And of course, that's an incredible film. I watched that a number of times and I think I bought the video of it and I kept watching it. I haven't seen it for a couple of years now, but I always enjoy it whenever I do get to see it. And that was probably the first film that was not only unashamedly gay, but it portrayed gay people as being able to live as normal and lead as normal and happy lives as anyone else, and that was very refreshing. I mean, it's a sad story, of course, because one of the main characters, played by Matthew Broderick, dies, and that is very sad. He's beaten up by a bunch of thugs in New York because they live in the Village. But by and large the film is very good and you come out of it feeling sort of sad and contemplative, I suppose, but also thinking that, yes, this is the nearest I've seen to what could be real life, and it makes you feel very good about yourself. There's no apologies; it just is what it is, I guess. Voice 1: I remember reading in the Evening Post last week of two gay guys living together in Churton Park, and I could really relate to that in terms of, well, that's pretty normal to me. That's the kind of role model or model that I would have liked to have seen when I was a lot younger. Voice 3: It's about seeing something which you can identify within your own life, reading something that you can identify with in your own life. And I guess the beauty of watching it on a movie or reading it in a book is that, again, it's confirmation that it's okay, it's fine, it's normal for you and nobody minds about it. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 143
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/claire_ryan_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003846
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089140
TITLE: Claire Ryan profile
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VOICES: Claire Ryan
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 2000s; Claire Ryan; Wai Ho; Wellington; disability; gender identity; health; sexuality; transcript online
DATE: 11 February 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Claire Ryan talks about disability, gender and sexual identity.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 1 January 2014
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Wai: So, Claire Ryan, sexuality and disability: what's that all about? Claire: What is it all about? Well, no one knows what it's about because no one talks about it, quite frankly. [laughs] My work that I do is with disabled people, talking to them about sexuality and sexual expression, supporting people to, I guess, lead the lives that most of us lead, but it would seem that disabled people struggle a whole lot more because of prejudice and all of that sort of stuff. So I tend to say I work in the sex industry, which can mean that I work with a variety of people from educationists like Family Planning, through to people who do actually work in the sex industry: sex workers, madams, et cetera. Yeah. Wai: So, you were saying that people often don't talk about sexuality and disability in the same sentence. Why is that? What are some of the blocks or the prejudices or stigmas around those two topics converging? Claire: Probably degrees of deviancy, as in: if you're attracted to a disabled person, then either they're deviant or you're deviant in your attraction to them, which is untrue. There are certainly disabled people who are deviant; some will identify as that. But I think in our society we spend a lot of time trying to look for perfection within our sexualities, and if you step outside of that and present in a different way, then that seems to be the predominant thing that people look at, rather than the person. So we tend to call disabled people disabled people, first off, or we call them clients or patients, so it's very asexualizing, and some people don't even make it onto that spectrum – don't even be referred to as bachelors or spinsters; they're just " those poor people," some of them. So there's lots of invisibility, and I think it's all about fear. Wai: So, how did you get into doing this stuff? Claire: Well I started working for IHC back in 1985, and it was through my own sort of coming-out process that I realized that disabled people don't get to come out around their sexuality. And I've never understood why this group of people that are often described as caring and loving and warm and all that sort of stuff, don't get to express their sexuality. So I went to a conference years ago and these two guys were doing a presentation. They were working with a young guy who has Down's Syndrome, who was a bit of a sexual offender. They were getting him to dress up as The Karate Kid, and he'd come in and karate chop these two anatomically correct dolls, one who was abusing the other. And these therapists thought they were doing a really great job, and the idea of it was good, but they were kind of replacing one form of violence with another. And of course this boy didn't stop being The Karate Kid when he left the room. [laughs] So it got me thinking about how distorted the whole thing [is] around all the assumptions we make around people's understanding of sexuality. And for that boy, perhaps he just didn't know about boundaries and understanding about his body and all that sort of stuff. It wasn't typical for the people I was working with to have any education about sexuality. They weren't referred to as people; they were called service users in those days, or clients. So I just kind of went from there, and I started... IHC were fantastic to work for because I could do a variety of jobs and managed to create a position where I was a relationships and sexuality advisor, which was thrown back in my face quite a few times from my partners when we'd be having disagreements, because apparently that meant I knew everything about relationships. I'd like to stress that I was an advisor, not an expert. But in that role I got to develop a Relationships in Sexuality Policy, which was quite pioneering for New Zealand. I thought that when I was given that task I'd just go cut and paste someone else's policy, but it would appear that there weren't any in New Zealand. And it's interesting that you'd even have to have a policy on sexuality in the human-service industry anyway. So we created this policy which was supposed to be a year's project, then it took five years just because it was a hugely emotive thing to do, and it was challenging for families, it was challenging for disabled people. But now it's been adopted by a place in New York. New York has almost copied it word-for-word, which I think is against the law. And other places now have seen the importance of having that, because it creates some transparency and it means that you have to do something about sexuality. And really, it's just about acknowledging people's gender and who they are and how they stand in the world. It's not about putting people in trucks and sending them over to the local brothel to have sex; it's not about that. It's about just being a bit human. Wai: So you're Wellington based, but the work that you do is national. Claire: Yes. Wai: Did you grow up in Wellington? Claire: No, I grew up in Christchurch, The Garden City.[laughter] Wai: And how was that? Claire: How was that? Christchurch is an interesting place. I have a friend who calls it " the city of hate." But, it's a pretty place. It's got lovely gardens. No, I enjoyed growing up in Christchurch. I grew up in a great family and had a very happy life there. It was very ordinary. Well... yeah, it was ordinary. I did a lot of pony club and stuff. I was a great pony club girl. Wai: And did you come out while you were living at home, or was it later? Claire: No, it was later on. I remember I went to an all-girls Catholic school, so it was pretty likely that something was going to happen. [laughs] Wai: [laughing] That is an assumption and a stereotype! Claire: Yes, isn't it? It was great being taught by women, and very dominant, powerful women. Some of them had excelled in going to bad-mood school. Anyway, I won't go there. I remember in my later years at school, someone suggesting that I might be a lesbian, and I was... [interrupted] Wai: Was it a negative thing or just a general suggestion? Claire: Well, it was kind of like being given to me as an option. And I remember thinking, oh no, I don't want to be that; it's far too obvious – like, everyone's a lesbian, so I'm not going to be one. So I think I spent a lot of time... I won't say I was asexual because I was always very interested in sexuality, but I didn't have a partner or a lover or anyone until I was 25, which would have pleased the nuns. Usually, probably, if I was still in that state, I was asked to join the convent when I left school, as a career option. [laughs] Wai: Are you glad you didn't? Claire: I'm really glad I didn't, mainly because I have quite big hair and I don't think I'd get the veil over it. But, yeah, it was not going to be an option to join the convent. My father did suggest it when I came out, that I could have, at least in the old days, joined the convent, which was an interesting insight into what he knew about nuns. [laughs] Wai: So were your family sweet as with you when you came out? Claire: Oh no. Wai: Were you all right with your coming out? Did you have to kind of struggle with anything, or you just never got around to it, or...? Claire: [laughs] I guess I told people, and I did the whole thing of draping myself in all sorts of symbols, you know, the woman's symbols hanging off my ear. I guess it's that thing of trying to show people how you are, more to get sort of validated rather than... I don't think anyone came up and congratulated me on now identifying as a lesbian, and I don't think I ever really was a lesbian. I mean, I didn't know what to " come out" as, so that seems like a good title. It's a nice word. It's kind of a luscious word. Wai: And now do you identify? Claire: Yeah, I identify as queer. Yeah, it's a work in progress. I guess for a while I was gender queer even though my gender isn't... I'm not planning to change my birth gender. I identify as high femme, which I think some women think I'm trying to be superior to them. I probably am on some levels, but it kind of means, for me, uber-femme, and it's more about who I'm attracted to, which is masculine, but not biological men. It's very fluid, I guess. I'm not attracted to biological women as partners, as such, but if they add a layer of masculinity on top of that, or anyone who's bothered to know who they are or look at their gender or whatever, gets my attention. So, I'm sorry if people haven't done that. I'll say hello, but I'll probably move on. Wai: So these notions of fluid gender and different expressions of gender, have you seen those change over the last 2 years, 5 years, 10 years? Claire: Mm. Well, even for myself I've probably had three coming outs. The first one was being a lesbian, which was exciting. There were great days of mullet haircuts, I guess; oh, what's her name? Judy Small music. And so I moved on from that. I remember going out to dinner once with a couple of butch-identifying people, and a woman who was femme, and I was there as kind of like the " just me." I hate that on dating websites where people will say, " I'm not butch or fem, I'm just me," which I think is saying... I don't know. It's my judgment about people, but I was doing a bit of a " just me" phase. But anyway, we had a conversation about who at the table was what, and everyone agreed at the table that I was femme, and I was furious. I was just like, I am bloody not! because I understood femme to mean weak and pathetic and all the stereotypes of what some people might see as femininity. And then it was one of those things where someone names the truth and you get a wee bit defensive about it. And so it took a lot of courage to step out of how I was, because I don't always find the queer community very welcoming of gender types. So for me to be wearing skirts or wearing lipstick, and I wasn't a lipstick lesbian, I was identifying as femme. And I just got a whole lot of power and courage from that. I used to be terrified of going to pubs and being around biological men. Now, going in with this new skin on, I just didn't even notice that they were there. It was very interesting, very important. I remember reading about butch and femme stuff, and my sister who's my favorite sister, she's very straight, and I was reading this stuff and crying, and going, " Oh! I've just been reading about butch and femme," and sort of getting all political about gender, and she was kind of going: Oh yeah? Oh, that's nice. [laughs] I was having this big political femme moment. So that was that. And probably in the last five years I have identified as high-femme, and that was just a move in terms of solidarity of where I stand. I don't know where I'll go from here. I wouldn't mind being a drag queen or perhaps a trans woman. I like that every time I think I've just settled, something else comes along. So, it's a work in progress. So, has it changed? Yeah, I think it has. I think even the number of trans identified people in New Zealand has increased hugely, and the way people are doing it, too, is really cool. It's not all about... I remember in the '70s or '80s, if any man went on holiday to Sydney, everyone used to say they were going over for the operation, because they would leave as Stan and come back as Stephanie, that sort of thing. Now people can be Stephanie and they don't have to go to Sydney; they can just sort of cruise around and identify however they like. So, that's cool. That's good. Wai: You talked a little bit about when you were coming out, or through the last however many years, that kind of pressure to conform, or being judged over whatever in the LGBTI communities or queer communities and that kind of thing, and you also talked a little bit about notions of perfection with bodies and people in regards to everyone's sexualities, or just your ability to be a sexual person in the world. Do you think that the queer communities would be better accepting or more tolerant or more understanding of people with disabilities? What's been your experience with that world? Claire: Yeah, I think so. I think the types of people who do the work in the human service or disabilities sectors – it attracts people of difference because I think... I've met a lot of people who are transgendered or queer or from a variety of backgrounds because it's a diverse... So, it's more likely that the disability sector is welcoming of queer people. I don't know if it's the other way around. I don't know what it would be like – I mean, this is my stereotype – to be a disabled gay man going to a nightclub where you can't sort of take your shirt off and have the abs, whatever you call it, those muscles showing, and be all cut and gorgeous. There's those kinds of challenges. But it's all based on fear, isn't it? We can all kind of get scared of ourselves and who we are. My experience with the – I can't even remember all the letters – LGBTI; the queer community with all those letters. Wai: …TQF.[laughing] Claire: My friend, Philip Patston, who's known in New Zealand, we hang out a lot, and for two years in a row we went to the launch of – it wasn't the Hero Parade, but what evolves after it – the Hero Festival, I think, and it was the launch of that. And both times we went along and he couldn't get in, and the first time... [interrupted] Wai: What do you mean, he couldn't get in? Claire: There was no access for him. Wai: Yeah. They just didn't even consider it. Claire: So clearly, they never thought that anyone in a wheelchair would be coming along. And after the first event, Philip, and rightly so, put in a complaint to, I think it was to GABA or someone, who was sympathetic and kind of just, oh, gosh yeah! No, that's terrible! And the year that Philip complained it was in a ground-level venue, but it was still really awkward to get in. So they fixed it by having the venue next year in a place that had stairs in it, so he really couldn't go. And that's interesting because it doesn't just mean that Philip can't go, it means that I can't go. You know, as if I'm going to say, look, I'll go and see what's going on and come back and report. It's kind of like going to a restaurant and you have to go and look what's in the cabinet and come back and tell people. I wasn't going to be doing that. And it was just a really good example of how difference, within a different community, is not considered. And yeah, I think notions of beauty and who's attractive, are certainly when disabled people identify as being queer. I get asked a lot to come and work with people who are disabled who might be saying that they're gay or lesbian or transgendered or whatever. I've never been asked to come and work with someone who might be identifying as straight, so we're still in that thing of just belief that those people, and especially people with intellectual impairment, would really understand what it is to be queer or whatever. I don't understand what it is to be queer, I just know that I see a certain type of person and parts of my body react differently or I feel good. Yeah, I think it's all a lot of rubbish a lot of the time. You are just how you are. You're just " me." There's far too many… I've supported two disabled people, to start their transition around gender, and the battles that they have have been monumental. It's amazing that they still are around. The endocrinologists are taking people on and off – well, one trans woman – on and off her hormones over a period of 20-plus years. And because she would see a different endocrinologist each time, she would be treated differently. There was no consistency, and because she didn't dress as a female, she wasn't believed to be a trans woman because it must be her intellectual impairments that are making her do all that stuff. It was just rubbish. I don't know if those experiences could be similar for people without intellectual impairment. I think it's the probably the medical profession on some levels, but it seemed a whole lot harder. Wai: So with a lot of the work that you've done around sexuality and disability, what have the responses been like? Can people get their heads around it, or is it one of these things where you do a workshop and they're like, oh yeah, cool? Claire: It's kind of like everyone can see the point of it, it's just what to do about it? It becomes a problem. People talk about the issues around disability and sexuality, disabled people don't have sexuality, they have issues with it, whereas the rest of us get up and get on with our day, that sort of thing. And I think it is really challenging. It's a mindset thing about... You know, there's lots of discussion around vulnerability. I was talking with some professionals about this online recently, and the assumption is that disabled people are vulnerable, and there are some people who are. But the assumption was that being vulnerable was a negative thing, and in fact when you're vulnerable there are a whole lot of possibilities for really nice nurturing and closeness that could happen, because if you're not vulnerable then that part of your life can be overlooked. A lot of what goes on in the disability sector, I've noticed over my 25 years of being a part of it, is about fear. It's things like people now, or some of the government agencies, their standards are things like when disabled people are supported to have showers, that support workers need to wear gumboots and aprons and gloves. So you've almost got this kind of freezing worker coming towards you to wash your body. And a guy I know used to say, or talked about, how the great thing about him going to see a sex worker is that she didn't wear any gloves when she touched him, and he found that incredibly exciting because everyone's always touched him... when they've touched his body they put gloves on like they're going to catch cerebral palsy. So, it's getting back to some of those basics such as getting rid of the fear and just always swapping places and thinking, if it was me on that changing table in the bathroom having someone take my clothes off, how would I want that to happen, and how enhancing is that of my gender and who I am? And if you are really attracted to a certain gender, that might be really embarrassing for you to have someone support you around using the toilet or whatever. It's thinking about those sorts of things. That's more in my workshops – I try to get people to think about what they think about stuff rather than tell them what they should be doing, and that usually means people have to be quite self-analyzing of their own behavior and their own sexuality, which of course raises a whole lot of issues for people sometimes. Wai: So, what could queer communities or LGBTI communities – what could we think about? Claire: Well, that Philip... Wai: Wheelchair access, for a start![laughter] Claire: Yeah, that would be nice. If you go and visit Philip Patston's websites – would you like some of those to look at? www. diversitynz. co. nz . On there, Philip has got some links to some of his other websites, one of which is WISE SPECIES. Philip has moved on from the social model of disability and thinking. The social model is all about [the idea] that disability is a social construct. So, people have impairments, but when they get to a set of stairs at the launch of the festival they become disabled because they can't get up the stairs, and it's because of the lack of thinking. I guess in everything that's organized now, in everything that you do you should expect that people of all sorts of diversity are going to come along. It's about: if you can't cater for that person's needs that it's not a panic, and it's not their fault, and it's not something that they have to fix. It's quite gracious just to say: Yup, we really mucked that up. Next year can you help us get it right? And talking to the people who actually have those experiences, as well. So Philip will talk about how we all have common experiences of the world, but there are some people that have unique experiences of it. So maybe within the LGBTI... ZKY [laughs] community we would look for and invite uniqueness and be prepared for that to come in many different shapes and forms, and just be prepared to learn from it or we're never going to get it right. For me, sometimes as a bigger woman coming along and sitting in a chair that has arms on the side of it, and I stand up and that chair is still attached to me – that's my unique experience of the world. And it's not always about the big stuff; it's just about creating environments. And sometimes it's just about that; it's just about being nice to people. I find it really difficult when I go to... We all go to an event because our commonality is about who we happen to sleep with, and sometimes people have been just so unfriendly, and it's kind of like we're all competing for the same person or thing, or whatever. Wai: That's because sometimes we are.[laughing] Claire: Yeah, sometimes we are. And I guess it's hard when I win all the time. I guess that's why people react to me in such a way. No, but it's just that we're all a wee bit suspicious of each other, and I can remember when the [homosexual] law reform was coming through, but I think that there was something really good about being queer being against the law. I kind of wish it was still that way because there is some power in being the underdog. There was some kind of unifying factor. I remember talking to someone on a line once; it was a pick-up line of mine that didn't go too well. Wai: What was it? Claire: She was saying to me something about being marginalized, and I said I actually quite liked being marginalized because it gave me a sense of purpose and solidarity, and I didn't see it as a negative thing. I quite liked the fact that if someone wanted to marginalize me, they saw that I was different to them, and that was quite important to me. I don't want to be the same, and I think that's what I see hit me in the queer community. I think it's great that people want to get married, but I wasn't actually going to go out and protest about the fact that I couldn't, because I kind of liked the fact that I couldn't because it, again, made me have to think about what I really want. I don't always have to have the same rights as everyone else, for me, but I know it's important for other people. And I think that's what's good about the disability sector is it's still talk about a marginalized group; we haven't really come a long way in terms of our thinking around disability or uniqueness. So it's a very cool community to be a part of, because there are some amazing, amazing people with amazing resilience and insight into the world, who just do their stuff and they don't have to have a parade or a festival about it. And I guess the disability arts is the emerging way that people who are activists are getting their message across, which is a really cool way of doing it. Pretty peaceful; or some of the performances are quite angry. But that seems like a very intelligent way of getting a message across. Wai: Well, fantastic! Thanks heaps for your time and for yarning with us. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 282
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_touchstones_red.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004559
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089853
TITLE: Red - Rainbow Touchstones
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Stephen Denekamp
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; Auckland; Mental Health Foundation; Rainbow Touchstones; Stephen Denekamp; coming out; depression; family; gay; health; mental health; transcript online; video online
DATE: 25 April 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this digital story Stephen talks about growing up and dealing with depression.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 2010
TEXT: It was when I was alone at night in my room. I would sleep on the floor because I felt I didn’t deserve to sleep in the bed. I would cry myself to sleep, I didn’t want anyone else to see that side of me. I grew up in Auckland in a very Christian family. I was the oldest, the only boy with three younger sisters. We all went to church regularly and I guess I just absorbed those values. I remember when something gay came up on TV I’d see that negative look on mums face. I guess unconsciously I began picking up all those messages. At school I had a group of geeky friends who were really supportive, but would also join in the gay jokes. And then at thirteen it suddenly clicked. It’s when I put this word ‘gay’ together with these feelings I was having. The thing was, I knew exactly 100% who I was sexually at that point in time and I didn’t want to be it. I guess it started out as an annoyance and then started to grow to hatred. I began to hate the fact that I was gay – ‘if I can just push away this part of me it’ll be ok’. I became really self-conscious. I was always over thinking everything - the way I was moving and what I was doing. I became very good at masking what I was feeling. At the same time I was using Internet chat. I didn’t know any gays or lesbians in person, but online I started searching and asking questions from people who were going through the same thing. I guess I had many different lives I was living. So at around sixteen it all just started spilling over, that feeling ‘bad’ just got stronger and stronger. I began to withdraw. I lost interest in things - music then food. Life started to become very grey. Rather than just hating this ‘gay’ part of myself I start hating all of myself. I thought that I was evil and disgusting and shouldn’t be here. Negative self-talk was with me constantly, I was punishing myself. But it was purely coming from inside. I hadn’t been teased or bullied. This was all self-inflicted. Then everything went up a notch and I started having dreams about dying and killing myself. I started self-harming. It was easier to have physical pain than to deal with the pain in my head. Suddenly a shift in my world. One day I was talking online to a person from school. He asked the usual question “how’s it going” and instead of replying with my usual reply I said “I’m feeling crap”. And he asked “what’s going on?” He encouraged me to tell my close friends and to see the school guidance counsellor. But even though I was now talking to people I was getting worse. Having hated myself for so many years the only feeling I felt was ‘bad’. I remember doing a speech at school. I picked the topic ‘teenagers never had it better’, but because of my state of mind I made it ‘Teenagers never had it worse’. I did this speech in front of my class and during it I grabbed a pair of scissors and cut myself. Now everything in my life was about getting me out of this place that I was in. My dad took me to a psychiatrist. We talked and she gave me a book on depression - one of the most amazing books ever. I was reading about everything I was experiencing. I began to recognize that this was the depression and not ‘me’. I wanted to change but it was still too much effort. It felt easier to stay hating myself and being suicidal so I was put on anti-depressants. They stopped me going lower, they stabilised me and actually lifted me up a bit so that I could try and get through this. And part of that was coming out to my parents. That was the most nervous moment of my life - but it was the biggest relief. Depression does go away, for me it’s taken about eight years. I started feeling better after the psychiatrist, but the negative thoughts kept coming back. Sometimes you need to ask for help. Talking about it means you’re beginning to deal with it. Depression is not who you are, but something you are experiencing. Talk about it and get help from someone you trust - a friend or counsellor. Find out as much information as you can and realize that you can absolutely change your feelings about who you are.

IRN: 390
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_touchstones_blue.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004555
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089849
TITLE: Blue - Rainbow Touchstones
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Mary O'Hagan
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; Mary O'Hagan; Mental Health Foundation; Rainbow Touchstones; depression; health; lesbian; mental health; transcript online; video online
DATE: 3 August 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this digital story Mary talks about growing up and dealing with depression.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 2010
TEXT: I grew up in a time when little girls where supposed to wear nice little rose-bud dresses and play with dolls. But I just couldn’t fit into that stereotype - I wanted to be active and run around playing with guns. I grew into a real tomboy and began wondering if that meant I was also a lesbian. The traditional thinking in the 1970s was that lesbianism might be a phase you go through, but if you remained homosexual in your adulthood you were a very screwed up person and that really scared me. My mental health issues started cropping up when I was eighteen. I started getting deeply depressed and then after a while I started developing highs as well. I had a whole lot of stresses - I was just leaving home, my grandmother had just died and I was sorting out my sexual identity. All of these things became entwined with my mental health problems. I went to my doctor and said I’d lost my appetite and that I didn’t feel very good emotionally. He referred me to a psychiatrist who told me I had depression. I went to see him twice a week for about six months. I only talked about the things that were easy to talk about. I was too terrified to tell him about the struggles I was having with my sexual orientation because of the fear of being judged. I thought he would try to label my feelings as a medical condition and think I had a sick personality. Over the next couple of years I continued going to these talk sessions as well as taking anti-depressants but nothing really seemed to help and so I ended up in hospital. As soon as I crossed the threshold of the hospital I was labelled and identified as a psychiatric patient. Once you’ve been in hospital you can’t escape that label. I was a mad person and to this day ‘mad’ has become a key part of my personal identity. The lowest point for me was facing the prospect of becoming a chronic psychiatric patient. Nothing seemed to be working for me. I’d been in and out of hospital for several years and I was losing all hope for the future. Then my elder brother drowned. When Sean died it jolted me out of my self-pity. I thought gosh, here’s this man of twenty-eight, his life was going along fine and then suddenly he’s dead. And then I thought I might have another fifty or sixty years to live. I suddenly felt that I was the lucky one. His death really helped change my whole outlook on life. My medication was changed and I began to stabilize. I saw several other psychiatrists but I still didn’t feel that I could talk to them about my sexuality. At the same time my own internal attitude towards lesbianism began to change and I began mixing with people who thought it was ok. After I left hospital I moved to Auckland and that’s when I came out as a lesbian. I had gone through similar experiences earlier coming out as a mad person. I guess what really helped was that the politics of lesbian feminism in the 1980s had exact parallels with the mad movement - they were just a template of each other. Lesbians and feminists were being subjugated by men or heterosexual society and mad people were being subjugated by the mental health system. They were both liberation movements, they reinforced each other. So I fed off each of them in my understanding. Sexual identity was one of the cluster of identities I had at eighteen that fed into my mood swings. Would I have got depressed if I hadn’t been confused about my sexuality? Been confused about my abilities? Confused about the meaning of life and I hadn’t felt lonely and isolated? I don’t know. I do know now there’s nothing to be afraid of - you just have to be who you are. Recovery is very much tied up with your identity. Going through mental health problems shakes the whole ground of your being. I felt that coming out as a lesbian was a resolution to part of my identity, it stabilized me. Another part of recovery is about accumulating good experiences. If you’ve had instability that goes on for years you end up with a deficit of good feelings about life. And even though coming out as a lesbian was traumatic and confusing and mind-blowing, in the end it enabled me to have some good experiences. If you start succeeding in life or you start doing the things that make you feel good then you gather a bit of momentum and that tends to continue. In the early years of my recovery it was about building up that store of good feelings and coming out was definitely a part of that.

IRN: 388
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_touchstones_yellow.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004558
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089852
TITLE: Yellow - Rainbow Touchstones
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Joe
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; Joe; Mental Health Foundation; Rainbow Touchstones; depression; gender identity; health; mental health; transcript online; transgender; video online
DATE: 5 May 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Christchurch, Christchurch, Canterbury
CONTEXT: In this digital story Joe talks about growing up and dealing with depression.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 2010
TEXT: I get annoyed when people say “I’m coping” or “I’m struggling” with depression. I just say “I have depression – shit happens.” I was never one of the cool kids at school. I was always a tomboy and super super nerdy - I was a member of the chess club and Cliff Richard was my favourite singer. My depression kicked in when I was sixteen. I had major back surgery which put me off school for two months. Because I was in so much physical pain people didn’t really notice the depression. A lot of the time I would just go to bed and not want to do anything so I’d say that my back was sore even though it wasn’t. Going back to school was awful. A lot of people were quite rude and asked things like “can we see your scars?” It kind of made me feel like a freak. Around seventeen I started having panic attacks. I’d step out the door to go to school and I just couldn’t leave the house. I just started getting really overwhelmed with everything and the more stressed or depressed I got the more my obsessive compulsive disorder flared up. Y’know when there are certain things that need to be done a certain way and there is no option but to do it that way. Even how I got dressed in the morning - it had to be done in the same order every day. It made me feel like I was in control. Up until then I hadn’t even really thought about sexuality and gender. But from about eighteen I started experimenting and came out as queer when I was twenty. That same year I was diagnosed with depression. When the doctor said it I was kind of a bit shocked because he had named it. Until then it had been a kind of undefined misery. But by naming it, it meant I had to do something about it. Initially he put me on a green-type prescription, natural anti-depressants like St John's wart, and told me to get some more sun and exercise and see how I go. About six months later I went back and said it wasn’t working so he put me on anti-depressants and sent me to a counsellor. I think I got worse for the next couple of years. I was put on a sickness benefit and met up with some people who weren’t particularly good for me - we kind of encouraged each other’s bad behaviour. With most of the counselling I’ve been through, sexuality and gender are what they jump on first. It just gets a bit frustrating because I don’t think they’re issues within me. I’m not agonizing over begin queer or trans but I do find how other people treat me really hard. Y’know when people constantly remind you that what you are is not the norm. They think you don’t feel things the same way and that’s what I get so depressed or anxious about. I was pretty much a mess in my mid-20s when I was coming out as trans because there’s so much explaining you have to do. I got quite bitter and resentful that I had to keep explaining just the way I am. It’s like as soon as someone finds out that I’m different that’s automatically a reason to start asking me all the questions they’ve had bottled up for ages. Even when people just make flippant remarks it triggers all the bad stuff in my brain. The last six months have been better. Even though my depression has been giving me a rough time the ways I’m dealing with are a lot healthier. I’m settling more into my gender. It’s like when you first come out - you’re so fiercely defensive about it. Y’know I use to wander around saying “I’m gay, I’m gay, I’m gay” to anyone who cared. And I was like that when I first came out as trans as well “I’m a man, I’m a man, I’m a man” – re-enforcing it at every possible opportunity. But just in the last few months I’ve come to realize that if people still see me as female that’s really not my problem. So even though my depression’s been really bad on one level I’ve been a lot healthier mentally. The depression’s been there for so long that I never really expect it to fully go away. I try to make sure that everything else is working well so that the depression doesn’t affect me too much. Things like watching what I eat, making sure I sleep properly and not spreading myself too thinly. I think a lot of people are quite prone to offering advice but I think deep down most people know what they need to be happy. It takes a pretty strong person to actually do it but it’s worth it - it’s about being true to yourself. Sometimes I wakeup and say “god, being true to myself really sucks today”. Y’know - being queer and trans - sometimes it’s quite hard just being me. But I just want the person in the mirror to be a decent reflection of the person I am on the inside. Definitely I have off days and I can’t be bothered and I just wish I was normal. But my good days – which are most days – are really good and I’m a lot happier and confident in being who I am.

IRN: 387
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_touchstones_orange.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004560
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089854
TITLE: Orange - Rainbow Touchstones
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Ivan Yeo
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1980s; Auckland; Ivan Yeo; Malaysia; Mental Health Foundation; Rainbow Touchstones; coming out; depression; gay; health; mental health; transcript online; video online
DATE: 29 March 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this digital story Ivan talks about growing up in Malaysia and dealing with depression.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 2010
TEXT: My only goal was to make myself look as normal as possible. It seemed to be the only answer to my life because I didn’t want to embarrass my family. I grew up in Malaysia with my mum, dad and three sisters. My father always taught us to be good people, not to live for yourself but to live for others. The teaching of Confucius strongly penetrates the whole of malaysian chinese society. You have to carry on your family name, you need to marry, have children and then look after your parents. And because Malaysia is a muslim country - gay is a big no. I can’t recall a happy childhood. I was really skinny and fair and a lot of people called me a “girly boy”. I only remember being sad and scared and anxious. Once my parents brought in a chinese priest to help stop me crying and screaming all the time. No one really knew about mental health, either someone was crazy or they were not. According to the priest I was being disturbed by bad spirits. I think for me it was a combination of many things - my unhappy family, my dad’s compulsive gambling, my gayness. I remember when I was about eleven reading a newspaper article that described what a homosexual was. I felt relieved - suddenly I had a name that described my feelings. But I also felt sad, the article was quite negative. The only example I knew was that if you’re gay you’re abnormal, you’d become a transgender and sell yourself on the street. One of the things I feared most was the rejection of love. When I was sixteen I had my first gay relationship with a classmate. I wanted to share it with my family but I couldn’t. Everything had to be very secretive. Like when I would write him a letter, I would have to be careful about what I said. His sister actually read one of the letters and told his mum and then I couldn’t see him anymore. I remember crying a lot and feeling so much pain that I had to bang my head on the wall. I started to miss school, my chest always felt really sore and I didn’t have the energy to do anything. As I got older everyone kept asking me “why don’t you have a girlfriend?” It made me feel like a freak. The lowest point was when I locked myself in my room after having a huge fight with my mum. My sister and mum started knocking on the door “tell us what you want – anything”. Out of my mouth I said “I want to go overseas”. I had no idea of where I was going to go, I didn’t have a plan but I just wanted to get away. Leaving the country was the best thing. It gave me the freedom not to worry about how other people thought about me. But it was very sad, I missed my family - they were all I had known for the past 28 years. A lot of things changed after I came to New Zealand. It was the first time ever I could be myself. I started to see how society can post their values into a person. It made me see that I am able to choose a lifestyle that I want, but it means I need to choose the right country to be in. It was also in New Zealand that I first found out about depression and anxiety. I was taking a university paper and one day I saw the diagnosis of depression and I suddenly realized that this is what I had. It was a hard moment but at least I now knew what it was. My depression and anxiety are like old friends – they have been with me for such a long time. But now when it gets really intense I know I have to take care of myself by talking to people and getting help. I remember someone once told me that “you’ll get better if you allow yourself to get better” - you’ve just got to hang in there. It’s like the weather – sometimes you get a good one, sometimes a bad one, remember it all passes.

IRN: 386
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_touchstones_green.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004557
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089851
TITLE: Green - Rainbow Touchstones
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; Mental Health Foundation; Rainbow Touchstones; bisexual; coming out; depression; health; lesbian; mental health; takatāpui; transcript online; video online
DATE: 12 June 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Paekākāriki, Paekākāriki, Kapiti Coast District
CONTEXT: In this digital story Hinemoana talks about growing up and dealing with depression.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 2010
TEXT: When I’m sick my depressive mind can make me feel bad about anything ‘I’m such a weirdo. I don’t belong anywhere. If I wasn’t queer I’d be closer to my family’. But when I’m not sick none of those ideas enters my mind. It’s funny because I’ve never had a problem with my sexuality. When I was fourteen I fell in love with a girl and I just thought ‘oh, I’m bisexual – sweet’. It’s never been a huge trauma for me. I had my first episode of depression when I was fourteen. My parents had split up; mum and me went to live in a new town where I developed a huge crush on a boy. He was my first sexual partner but that first time wasn’t consensual at all and from there things got really dark. It was the first time I’d experienced actually wanting to die. I remember walking through a nearby orchard and saying goodbye to things – nature, plants, birds. And I ended up trying to kill myself. My mother found me. Later she tried to pretend it didn’t happen. So things just got worse. For me, the answer for that kind of pain was to be become unmanageable and promiscuous. I wanted to forget everything and disappear into chaos. depression isn’t something that ‘just happens in your head’ - it brings very physical reactions. I get a tightness in my chest and throat, my limbs feel like lead and even small things take heaps more energy. And things that I normally take pleasure in become really difficult. The negative thoughts start up to and they’re pretty paralysing. Trying to get out of bed against the tide of pessimism and self-abuse is really hard. It wasn’t until I was about twenty-eight that I was actually diagnosed with depression. I’d gone to see a doctor about something else and he wrote in my notes ‘it’s not so much the overuse syndrome that I’m concerned about with this young woman, it’s her depression.’ And I was like ‘oh hell I didn’t know I had that.’That was the first time I had anyone name it, and I was so grateful that someone had noticed and cared about what was going on at that deep level. But it’s interesting because it still didn’t really click for me. I still thought that I was just not a very worthy person and that hating yourself, and occasionally wanting to die, and not being able to get out of bed for a week-or-so was actually quite normal. My next major bout of depression happened about ten years later and it was so frightening. It was so not me. It was like being stalked by a murderer, but the murderer was myself. Every time I walked past a set of stairs I’d imagine throwing myself down them, or walking past a window I’d imagine jumping out of it. So the doctor put me on medication which stabilized me. The great thing about Western medicine is that it’s very good about giving things names. I actually had a really big suspicion of medication, like ‘you must be really mad if you have to take a pill’. Or maybe I just didn’t want to acknowledge that it was as serious as it was. But then I’m not beyond asking for help, and actually being diagnosed and offered that treatment was empowering. The difficulty with depression is that it comes with its own sabotage mechanisms so the exact things that you know are good for you, the disease tells you that you can’t do them or you shouldn’t do. It took me a long time before I could answer it back. I created a really rigorous and regular routine of self-care. I have regular conversations with key people about how I’m going. For me medication isn’t enough. I’m trying to use it as a support to change my life into one that isn’t so stressful and full of triggers. And the medication is just one of the tools in my toolbox. And it’s a toolbox that belongs to me. I know myself and I know this condition. If I have a crap day I have to say to myself ‘what can I do?’ Have I been eating well? Do I need to structure my day more? Do I need exercise or visit my doctor or do I need to spend time with friends? I remember a friend saying to me once when I was sick ‘Don’t believe what your head is telling you’ and I remember thinking that that wasn’t very helpful at the time because it was my current reality and it felt so real and convincing. But these feelings and thoughts do pass and when they do it all seems as bizarre as it actually was. So I just need to keep telling myself that each episode of depression doesn’t last forever, it will pass, and I have a whole toolbox to help me get through it.

IRN: 389
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_touchstones_violet.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004556
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089850
TITLE: Violet - Rainbow Touchstones
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; Auckland; Mental Health Foundation; Rainbow Touchstones; alcohol and drug abuse; depression; gay; health; mental health; transcript online; video online
DATE: 26 June 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this digital story Damian talks about growing up and dealing with depression.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 2010
TEXT: When I was nine I remember my father saying to me he may not be living with us much longer and I said “Why is that?” He said “Your mother and I disagree on things, she thinks that gay men are nice.” And I asked “What’s that, I don’t understand.” And he said “Men who love other men”. “But didn’t Jesus say we should love each other?’ I asked. “No no, not like that - men who kiss each other.” I was like ohh. That was my introduction to homosexuality. My depression started up when I was about eleven. I was ruthlessly bullied at school, there was something about me that didn’t quite fit. Because I spoke clearly they would come up to me and say “are you English?” and then pretty soon it turned into “are you gay?” It was my first experience of people pointing the finger. My mother really tried to be there for me but there was so much stuff that I couldn’t actually say to her because I felt confused and didn’t know what kind of response I was going to get. When I was twelve I started having my first sexual dreams. They were of me wrestling with my friends and on waking I’d think ‘oh that’s wrong’. But it was something deep within me that I had no control over. I guess my relationship to ‘gayness’ had moved significantly since my father first mentioned it. I’d gone from ‘I can’t see what’s wrong with it’ to feeling deeply worried and anxious and ashamed about what was going on inside my head. And then in sex education class at Intermediate the local health nurse talked about wet dreams. She said “Sometimes you might even dream about having sex with your male friends - this doesn’t mean you’re gay, it’s just a normal part of growing up.” And I just remember this incredible sense of relief - oh, I’m not gay. But those types of dreams kept on happening. So I became increasingly homophobic over my High School years. I suppose it was active repression, fighting the homosexual thoughts in my mind. I started smoking cannabis, I always felt anxious and I found it very hard to go to school. At the same time I began to take part in workshops run by my church. A big part of those was about examining yourself and I think I was starting to see the cracks. I was sort of living two lives. There was a part of me - this sort of tearaway, loose cannon, self destructive person who was really miserable and had suicidal thoughts on a daily basis. And then there was a part of me that needed to maintain an appearance of ok’ness and sanity by being this amazingly responsible person who the church group loved and adored. So after leaving school I held down a few jobs before going on to the unemployment benefit and then because of my depression I moved on to the sickness benefit. For two years my doctor kept signing-off my benefit until one day she said “Things need to change because you’re not getting better.” I was twenty-one when I agreed with her that I needed medication to help stabilize my moods. I had stopped doing drugs and drink a couple of years before and was really anti-medication but the doctor gently convinced me into trying a very low dose of anti-depressants. It had a profound effect on me within days. My anxiety about things calmed down and I could start looking at myself again. Part of what the meds did was to take away the bumps and dips so that I could start learning how to manage my emotions in a healthier way. I went to an out gay counsellor who gave me the opportunity to talk about what I was experiencing. The more I talked about it and acknowledged it the more ok I felt about being me. I think ultimately my mental state was because I had been repressing myself for so long. I had spent years beating myself up and beating parts of me into a corner. It took quite some time for things to come right. I had a couple of relapses and major crashes along the way and even now there are still times I get unhappy. But I now know that I have the ability to take command of that and make it pass before it gets into more serious depression. A big part of my story is about being true to myself, developing a sense of pride and stepping beyond my fears.

IRN: 312
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_vaitoa_toelupe_keynote.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004127
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089421
TITLE: Vaitoa Toelupe - AsiaPacific Outgames
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: David Huebner; Vaitoa Toelupe
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Ilott Theatre; Samoa Fa'afafine Association; So'oalo To'oto'oali'i Roger Stanley; Vaitoa Toelupe; activism; fa'afafine; history; human rights; transcript online; transgender
DATE: 17 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Vaitoa Toelupe delivers a keynote presentation. Vaitoa is introduced by David Huebner, the United States Ambassador to New Zealand. The presentation happened during the second plenary session: Our rights across the Asia Pacific region - a snapshot.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 2010
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Vaitoa Toelupe: Thank you honorable ambassador for the introduction, and talofa everyone. " Ae oute lei utufia le vai sa male vai more na ite iai le Tagaloa. E muamua ona ou faapoipoi lilia ile paia mamalu ua e'e tai nei ile Maota. Iulou le fanua, le ele'ele ma ona tapu a fanua. Tulou na tagata a nu'u o Aotearoa. Tulou fo'i usu fono mai Asia male Pasefika. Tulou Samoa na lua le paia ma le mamalu ole " au malaga mai America Samoa ma Samoa, tulou, tulou, tulou lava." Good morning ladies and gentlemen and distinguished delegations from across Asia and the Pacific. Thank you for this opportunity to hear the voices of the Pacific, and hopefully it will echo through this forum, through these hallways and across the vast Pacific Ocean so it may have an input and significant change in our purpose to advocate for our God-given, universally-declared, human rights. As introduced, I am Vaitoa Toelupe, an Executive Member of the Samoa Fa'afafine Association, Incorporated. I am humbled to be given the opportunity to speak on behalf of our President, Roger To'oto'oalii Stanley, who could not be here today. Roger is one of the few fa'afafines who has been recently appointed at the Assistant Chief Executive Officer level for the Ministry of Women, Community and Social Development, an achievement the Samoa Fa'afafine Association is most proud of and is inspiring for most to follow. So, even though she is not here physically, she is with us in spirit, and it's a good thing she's not here because otherwise she would be snoring already in the front row, and asking when morning tea will be served.[laughter] But for those of you who know Roger, she may be snoring but if you're out of line she'll come back to life like a hungry lion, and considering her voluptuous Island delights, her attack is not a pretty sight. She is, after all, once, twice, three times a lady.[laughter and applause] It is probably one of our known attributes as fa'afafine: We say it as it is, with little consideration of how you perceive what is said. It is one of the reasons why we naturally become strong advocates for what we believe in, and in this gathering it happens to be our human rights. I will speak today about human rights and the intricacies of navigating the minefield of traditional and cultural values versus the new-age laws and customs, and most importantly its relevance to the lives of fa'afafine. Fa'afafine is a cultural identity. It is not a sexual identity. To understand the fa'afafine you must first understand fa'a Samoa, or Samoan culture. We are intrigued with the wealth of knowledge and learning from this conference, especially with the LGBT community, the history, the struggles and the finding the way forward. It is therefore necessary that the LGBT community has an opportunity to hear a perspective from a vulnerable group within a vulnerable group within a vulnerable group in Samoa called fa'afafine. There is a Samoan saying: O Samoa ua uma ona tofi – Samoa has already been defined. The three main pillars of Samoa are culture, the church and its Constitution, or O le f'a'avae. Its social structure determines roles and responsibilities of each individual to uphold, to honor, respect and execute, to keep the stability and harmony and well-being of all. This definition of Samoan society predetermines the purpose of an individual and their entitlements. When a child is born, this child is born with its unique cultural identity and associated birth rights. They are the living continuum of family genealogy, heritage and history. They are heirs, or suli, to family land, 'ele'ele fanua; they are heirs to chiefly, matai title; and their birthright is to inherit all of the above plus the coconut tree and the mango tree in front of their house and fale – Samoan fale. For the male, the tama, their identity is well established. They are the strength, o le malosi, the tautua, the pule, the authority. For girls, or teine, they are the most sacred, or O le feagaiga tausi, o tama sa, auga faapaea. E osi taulaga ai tama tane i aso uma o latou ola. She is the covenant, the honor, upheld and protected by her brothers. E fa'amoemoe ai laina o gafa. From her womb our genealogy will continue. She is the provider, and the wealth of her family lies in her hands to protect and maintain. O pae ma uli. She is the peacemaker. It is the same identity given to Christianity as a founding principle in the Samoan culture. Christianity was given the utmost respect, o le feagaiga, or the covenant, and the social structure will protect it and honor it as we do today. Every Samoan inherits these rights from birth. It is why when a Samoan meets another Samoan the first questions are: What is your name? Where is your village? Who are your parents? What church do you come from? What land do you belong to? And never do we ask who or what do you sleep with? Because of these cultural birthrights this is the basis of our existence. When a fa'afafine is born, like every Samoan boy a fa'afafine is an heir to land, matai title to the authority. It is our role to uphold family honor by preserving the covenants between boys and girls and God, o le va tapuia. In their growth fa'afafines can also be providers and peacekeepers. It's the perfect cocktail of the two roles, and somewhat overprivileged, but it's inheritance that comes with a price. It is with these birthrights fa'afafines in Samoa have long enjoyed the Samoan people's sincere tolerance as they are children of the land and family. So, in my country, you, being Samoan, having the blood of your ancestors running through your veins, being a vessel to uphold family tradition and culture, having a purpose to care for your sisters and brothers and honoring your birthrights is your first measure as a human being. Me being fa'afafine is secondary, and so is what I do in bed. Fa'afafines have sex with straight men. This is a fact, but it is not perceived a homosexual act, and this is the culture. This cultural identity is extremely important because it is the foundation to our approach to advocating for human rights. We fa'afafine are extremely proud of our culture, our place in Samoan society and recognition of our people is the reason we stand straight, we walk tall, we sing loud, and are often arrogant, thinking Samoa is bigger than Africa.[laughter] But our culture, the essence of our very being, is also our greatest enemy. The true test of Samoan people's tolerance was tested when sexual rights, sexual orientation, the term homosexual, homophobia, stereotypes, reproductive issues and marital preferences became apparent in the wake of the HIV and AIDS pandemic in the late 1980s. It severely challenged the status quo in the three pillars of Samoa. The culture became strongly influenced by labels, terminologies and its associated implications. Fa'afafine's embrace similar cultures such as drag artistry, entertainment and even gay lifestyles when travelling abroad. The unspoken fa'afafine having sex with men was immediately thrown under the microscope and our cultural identities became confused in the process. The shameful realities of the silence with fa'afafine sexuality became more and more prevalent. Issues around child abuse and sexual exploitation of fa'afafine, generally by male family members, were unreported, and it was a fact Samoa had to face. Orientation by overseas experts focused on homosexuals and fa'afafine were immediately targeted because of assumed and apparent sexual orientation. It was the first time fa'afafines started to hear of LGBT. The church: the fa'afafine community, despite its strong presence in church activities, became easy targets of the usual bullshit: You are an abomination and homosexuality is a sin, while ministers turn a blind eye to alcohol abuse, to crime, adultery, rape and murder. For our constitution, pressures of consensual and nonconsensual homosexuality, and wearing and having articles of women's clothing on you in public was against the law and punishable by fines and imprisonment – a direct cut-and-paste, and what I like to call nip-and-tuck, from colonial New Zealand administration. In Roger's own words, " They say I'm breaking the law because I'm impersonating a woman. Well, show me a woman that looks like me."[laughter and applause] So, the realities of the sexuality of our cultural identities, tolerated by people before it became more apparent, was just as ugly and real as it is around the world. These realities you are too familiar with, which brings me to the second part of my address in which, with these surfacing realities and challenges, what did we do about it? The fa'afafine community is a traditional part of the Ministry of Health since the initiation of the HIV Prevention Programme in 1987. It has established its role as the advocacy leaders that outreaches to the marginalized groups and those who cannot be reached by the official networks. It was the beginning of the fa'afafine movement. For the first time organized workshops and strategic gathering to discuss issues on health, sex and well-being for fa'afafine saw the potential with the fa'afafine community to take HIV and AIDS to the next level using nonconventional means of promotion. And for decades the Ministry of Health has capitalized on social and professional connections of fa'afafines to reach the marginalized and vulnerable groups. This is where fa'afatama comes in. Because of the status of women culturally the fa'afatama community is not visible as a fa'afafine community. Their issues are often conservative and reserved within the comforts and security of their own families. Unlike fa'afafines who sometimes think they are in Hollywood, fa'afatama keep to themselves and keep their mamalu, their sacredness and their honor. Because their sexuality was also thrown under the radar, advocating for something that is not broken will probably go against them, so in one fa'afatama's words, " Let sleeping dogs lie." This is their preference and a position we must respect. Prostitution and fa'afafines involved in casual, paid sexual activity also received an extended hand from the fa'afafine community, although this is never encouraged as an option for a full-time job in the Islands. There's a lot of land to work.[laughter] The awareness of HIV and AIDS and fa'afafine's taking the leading role eventuated in the establishment of the Samoa AIDS Foundation. Ken Moala is here today, and so is Teresa Apa were founding members of the HIV and AIDS agenda, and the HIV and AIDS agenda escalated to new heights. By this stage in our movement the Samoa fa'afafine community was ready to take the bold step of establishing a collective to focus purely on vulnerable groups within vulnerable groups within vulnerable groups, and after cheap bourbon, as Tara puts it, and borrowed Coke at Roger's mansion, which could only fit five people, the greatest initiative of our time was conceived to establish the Samoa Fa'afafine Association. And sure enough, nine months later down the line the most beautiful, most manu manu bad, most beautiful Samoan Fa'afafine Association was born. It gained instant political support with our Prime Minister as a patron, and instantly, vave, was in a position to make a stand. Fa'afafine's rights advocacy began to include the rights to our sexual orientation, our gender identity, cultural identity and gender expressions with the minor issues of same-sex relations, adoption and antidiscrimination. Samoa Fa'afafine Association submitted last year a law, during a law-reform commission, to decriminalize punishment to homosexual activity and female impersonation. I am pleased to advise that the Samoan Law Reform Commission took onboard our submissions and recommended it to the government. We are waiting to hear the outcome of that exercise. But nevertheless, we will still wake up every morning. We wear our puletasi, put on our big flowers and we go to work to provide for our families despite it being a crime. The police do what they want, do what they do, and we do what we do. It's like a mutual respect and understanding of our reliance on our gender expression as much as our reliance on our careers in order to support our families, just as the police do. Sadly, the GLBT model is found wanting for us here because with the advent of HIV and AIDS in the Pacific, the issues are now often about sexuality and sexual acts, when for us, the fa'afafine and fa'afatama, we have this rich history in our heritage which we are woven into. Removing the association of our role to sexual acts, and in conjunction with the Samoan AIDS Foundation, we are making inroads into the general public in terms of making safe-sex acts campaigns a part of everyday life for all Samoans, not just fa'afafine. We are going back to our roots, our cultural identity and use that model instead of the GBLT model or the foreign terminologies. It's appropriating what works in our construct. Why should we use an outside model that will only insult and antagonize our elders, our culture, our people? It doesn't make any sense, and it is perhaps the reason why the sex-act models will continue to push an uphill battle in Samoa and the Pacific. In our advocacy we want to make known the Yogyakarta Principles, as new as 2006, and we acknowledge their use, relevance to western societies or societies where there is consistent abuse and confusion in terms of citizenship, gender identity and sexual orientation, but because of its focus on gender identity and sexual orientation its application is flawed for us in the Pacific. We know our sexual orientation and so do all of our people. We know our place and our gender identity and so do all of our people. Our drive and strategic direction is for full steam ahead with capacity building for fa'afafine so they truly know their place in society. It's the only way they can contribute, by feeling a sense of pride, of belonging, to something that is part of you and your culture. For us it's a long road from a humble beginning as a social gathering which then led to the formation of the Samoa Fa'afafine Association. And we are here, and we are humbled by the opportunity. So the question really is what do we want from this conference? We are able to share our cultural perspective and our cultural identity, but what do we really want from this conference? What do we want to achieve? And it's quite simple, and I think we have three main agendas that we want to push through. One is funding. Funding, funding, funding, with the proper support structure to work with us on relevance of policies that work in our culture, in our context. We don't want you to give up on us. Real value is based on gathering real evidence. As a movement we need to hold you donors and people who are responsible for providing this funding accountable, but we must also determine if your structure and policies are effective and applicable in our context. Two, AsiaPacific needs to be inclusive of the Pacific in bold, otherwise don't use the Pacific if you never want to see a fa'afafine again.[laughter] Officially include our cultural identities – this is the third point – in the documentation, in the language and the advocacy. We respect LGBT, but if the only excuse is adding all the names is too long, like commonly said, then let it be so. Have 10 papers with all the names; that's what we want. Our world, yours and mine, is in trouble, and there is no argument at all. We live in a society bloated and filled with data and information. We ride the sub-highway of Facebook and Twitter and emails, yet we are starved for wisdom. We're connected to each other 24/7 through technology, yet we are filled with anxiety, fear, depression and loneliness, issues which are at an all-time high. Don't you feel or grieve with me that we need a correction in our course? The link between the past and the future is very fragile, especially more so for us in the Pacific. Our forefathers fought for our human rights; it's why we want to continue the battle. So in closing I would like to offer you this: The AsiaPacific, we would like to see it as our canoe. Our people are the voyagers. True navigation begins in the human heart. It's the most important map of all. Together we can do it. Together we can genuinely help each other. There is nowhere else to go, and this is the message for our Pacific delegation and for everyone here today – there is nowhere else to go. What we are looking for is right here. What we are looking for is right here. I would like to thank the Netherlands Government, the United States Government and also the Government of New Zealand for inviting us here today, and having the opportunity to sponsor our participation. We are very grateful. Thank you very much.[applause] Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 310
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_sunil_pant_keynote.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004129
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089423
TITLE: Sunil Pant - AsiaPacific Outgames
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Maryan Street; Sunil Pant
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Blue Diamond Society; Ilott Theatre; Maryan Street; Nepal; Sunil Pant; activism; human rights; transcript online
DATE: 18 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Sunil Pant delivers a keynote presentation. Sunil is introduced by Maryan Street. The presentation happened during the third plenary session: Movement building for change.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 2010
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Sunil Pant: Thank you Madame Chair, also MP, distinguished speaker panelists and friends. Thank you for your welcome. It's great to be here today and to be part of this conference. Let me acknowledge the conference coordinating group and funders, particularly Barry, sitting somewhere here, who had been in an email contact to me to bring me over here. And also Rainbow Wellington; without their support I wouldn't be here today. Let me quickly take you through some of the pictures I have put together from the inception of Blue Diamond Society, which I will talk about; the photo itself evidence to speak to the issues, the problems, the struggles, the justice, culture, pageants, pride and lives of LGBTIs in Nepal. We basically started from scratch, and I think this picture is one of the few when we started Blue Diamond Society – early years. A lot of violence until 2007, so this is in 2003 that two meetings were called for the male-to-female third genders in Nepal who'd been arrested and then raped and brutally beaten up by the army police force. This is another attempted murder of a transgender person by another army officer. These are other beatings, people trying to celebrate New Year in 2062. We are in 2068 now, the year. This is also doing outreach peer work of raising awareness of condoms and HIV. He was beaten up on his face. Then a picture of one of the frequent, arbitrary arrests of LGBTIs in Nepal. This is the International Day Against Homophobia we've started celebrating from 2006, and it's at the public space and police were asking what we were doing. We explained to the police what we were doing. Okay, and then the previous picture, which slipped quickly, was about filing the writ petition to the Supreme Court, and then we were waiting for the decision. After the Court decision this is the first legal ID that was given to a third-gender person, Bishnu, and in the column of " Gender" it's written " Third." It's in Nepali. And then two pictures of various lobbying, empowerment training, and leadership building. This is a transgender son there sitting with the Prime Minister on the International AIDS Day last year. Various leadership training of how to do public speaking, aligning your vision with the organization vision, so all the LGBTI take place and strategize their own way forward, part of several leadership courses, and also they are trained how to do public speaking at the training. And this is a sit-in protest demanding legal ID, and this is another interaction programme. The Gaijatra Festival, theatre pageants. This is a picture of Pride Festival we did last year, 2010. Nepal also officially promotes tourism, and the Tourism Minister of Nepal welcomed gay and lesbian visitors in his masses in one of those days. We also have a transgender choir, All Queer Choir they're called, and they sing beautifully, like we saw the Maoris last night. And we have several other cultures: the deities and some of also the Panthic deities paintings I have here – very graphic. This is Maruni cultures. It still exists. Young male – very feminine – or third genders dancing and performing dances called Maruni. This is Ardhanareshore, a tranpanthic Hindu and Buddhist deity closely associated with gender, mostly third gender or various gender roles. This is also Ardhanareshore, Lord Shiva's both male and female form. Standing White Lokeshore, also considered to be neither male nor female. Kumari, as you see more in dress a drag queen, Kumari. This is another painting of Ardhanareshore. These are widely available. You can get postcards and stuff in Nepal. And Sukhasiddhi, if you worship this Goddess you get all the bliss and all the satisfaction – that's what they believe. The naked picture of a woman deity. Amogsiddhi, also another one that whatever you wish is fulfilled. And this is Avaloketishore in other paintings. This one is the original one from, I think, 4th Century, BC. A Buddhist deity of compassion. More glimpses of Nepal. It's basically the recorded stories, a record of the Nepali village home – house. There's mountains close; not far from Katmandu, taken by myself. And this is Buddha on a stoop in Katmandu. And for your information, we have Pink Mountain Travels and Tours. So, let me now move to my speech. I value you all who have gathered here. The organizations and people you represent, the roles you play and potential you have to shape the world of tomorrow. In particular I believe that the AsiaPacific Outgames organizers have a vital role to play in accelerating the process of the LGBTI rights in AsiaPacific through such games and such human-rights conferences. I'm supportive of the mission. I believe our success and AsiaPacific's success. I have come this morning to talk with you on one of the probably last issues of human rights in our time: that is ending discrimination over human diversity and ensuring full freedom of all beings. And New Zealand is the place to talk about ending discrimination and preserving full freedom because here, on this soil, discrimination against humans by humans on the ground of so-called superiority, the powers of evil that try to destroy civilization has been tackled successfully by the natives, the Maoris. And the roots of human freedom have long ago struck deep, and here they have been richly nourished. The decisive importance of liberty, freedom and dignity of LGBTI people is yet to be fully recognized still by quite a few member states of the United Nations. Concern for the prevention and promotion of human rights and fundamental freedom stands at our hearts, regardless of human diversity. We're working hard to boost the progress of the LGBTI rights, equality and equal opportunity, because growing freedom is ultimately what will provide LGBTI and our families the jobs, security, shelter, education, health care, freedom and choices that we aspire to and deserve. It's that desire to build a brighter future which lies at the heart of Blue Diamond Society's relationship agreement with the AsiaPacific LGBTI rights movements. A movement needs visionary leaders, and visionary leaders are the builders of the new [?], working with imagination, insight and boldness. They work with a power of dedication with higher hope, higher purpose. They are social innovators and change things, seeing the big picture and thinking strategically. We share a commitment to improving the lives and prospects of all LGBTIs, and indeed of all Nepalis, and our confidence and courage has enabled us to work across a number of fronts to achieve that. Good relationships are the heart of effective movement building. The movements embody a deeply caring approach to people, seeing them as their greatest asset. The most effective leaders of the movement are responsive to the real needs of people and they develop participative strategies to include people in designing their own futures. We have forged a strong relationship and one which I think has had a very positive impact on the work of Nepali government and the lives of Nepalese LGBTIs. In saying that, I recognize that while the government can provide the environment and policy settings for success, ultimately it is us, the LGBTI activists, entrepreneurs and innovators, the workers who will generate greater equality and wealth and growth in Nepali democracy and in its economy. Similarly, we should look to ourselves for the ideas and energy that will fuel development for AsiaPacific, including my own country, Nepal, and for all of us. So, the question for such a conference is how can you, working with government and your wider community, support LGBTI to grow their asset base and the benefits that flow from that? How can we unlock and boost the potential value in LGBTI-held assets? I view the AsiaPacific Outgames as an excellent network, like Blue Diamond Society in Nepal, for bringing together the voices, the people, and the ideas that together can answer those questions. We know there is a great foundation to build on. Great things have already been achieved in AsiaPacific. In the 10 years from 2001 to 2011 in Nepal the out LGBTI have grown up from 1 to more than 300,000. The situation has changed from violence to respect. The reach has expanded from Ratna Park, a tiny park at the center of Katmandu, to Rolpa, a remote district in the far west of Nepal, and made the recent governments of Nepal support LGBTI issues at national and local levels as well as international levels. The progress reflects a lot of hard work and a huge contribution by all Nepali LGBTIs, and with significant support from our sisters and brothers abroad. It reflects the flourishing of LGBTI movements and the development of new ideas and ways of doing things from far west to east of Nepal, from Terai, the plains in the south of Nepal, to the Himal, the mountains in the north, from cities to the villages. In part it also reflects the successful transfer of leadership via the training, coaching, dialogue, one-on-one conversation and forming the foundation of Sexual and Gender Minorities in Nepal back in 2007, which have 30 organizations as members. I want to talk a little about the process today. I want to reflect on where we have come to so far in the last decade and what that means for LGBTI social, economic and political development. We take as a great deal of importance the rights and opportunities negotiation process and on completing fair and final settlement, not because we believe it is the most important issue for LGBTI but because, like many of you, our goal is to move beyond grievances towards the brighter, more prosperous future we all seek. So, we give everything to build the new constitution, and we will only accept the new constitution when it has guaranteed full rights, equality and non-discrimination for LGBTIs in Nepal. We have seen the draft Criminal and Civil Law prepared by the Law Ministry, and we condemn the process it excluded us from their drafting process. We also are deeply concerned with the proposals the drafts have made in the draft Civil and Criminal Code. They don't acknowledge transgender – we call them third genders in Nepal. We refute the drafted law because it says only men and women can marry, and as a heterosexual couple only. This is unacceptable, and we can't let the Law Ministry take it forward when it indicates LGBTI people are criminal, which is against the Supreme Court decision and against the draft Constitutional provisions. The State must not dictate to us to lead lives against our will and nature. The new laws must allow LGBTIs to live life with freedom, dignity and opportunities. It's that positive, forward-looking part of the draft Constitution and legal change process that another Ministry, the Ministry of Women, Children and Social Welfare is taking ahead. That excites me. We must stop looking in the rear-view mirror at grievances past, and at this stage shift our energies and focus towards building a stronger foundation for the future. Don't you think it would be wise for all the governments in AsiaPacific to focus on development, how to tackle poverty, how to bring people and communities together in a state of targeting the LGBTI communities, who have nothing to survive? Movement builders execute with confidence. Successful movement builders know where they want to go and how to get there. They believe in themselves and others believe in them too. The result is teamwork, shared goals and improved morale. The last 10 years:In 2000 - Starting an out initiative in Ratna Park. 2001- Registering Blue Diamond Society. 2002 - Came out. Started from myself. 2003 - Starting to address human-rights violations of LGBTIs. 2004 - Taking the human rights abuse matters to the UN. 2005 - Expand the programme in Katmandu, Patan, Pokhara, Biratnagar and Birgunj. That's five of the major cities in Nepal. 2006 - Joining and leading the people's movement Jana Andolan 2nd. 2007 - Taking the government to the Court. 2008 - Standing for the Constitution Assembly election and more expansion of networks and programmes. 2009 - Introducing the leadership programme, working with district local governments, working with the political parties. 2010 - Working with the Ministries. 2011 - Will become another milestone-setting year. With our joint efforts we will make this year one of the most historic ones again. New LGBTI leaders not only from Nepal but from other countries in AsiaPacific should see the experience of Nepali LGBTI leadership, who still stand and fight from the year 2000, 2001, and how much we have achieved in the intervening period. We, especially the new generation of LGBTI, don't wish to spend more time and money on litigation and negotiation. It should be ensured by the new law and new constitution. We all want to focus on careers, development, contribute and make a lot of progress and move on. And you should focus towards that and work hard to achieve that. As well as helping restore the honor of the LGBTIs the constitutional guarantee of equality will help build a future for the progress base for LGBTIs in Nepal. We are moving on from a time when LGBTI leadership and resources have been heavily focused on resolving historic cultural and legal injustices, and we are fast moving to an era in which that energy will be increasingly devoted to political and economic development and business opportunities for the present and future. Specific achievements that need to be mentioned include implementing the historic Supreme Court decision made on the 21st of December, 2007, declaring all LGBTIs are natural people and deserve equal rights and opportunities. Our right to life, freedom and dignity was guaranteed by the Court. It now must be translated into national laws and into the new constitution. The first major milestones to be achieved within the process have already been marked, including the Memorandum of Understanding between Blue Diamond Society and the Ministry of Women, Children and Social Welfare to eliminate all the discriminatory laws against us. The Same-Sex Marriage Committee is considering giving marriage equality to all LGBTIs in Nepal. The Gender Equality Bill that the Law Ministry is preparing to present to the Parliament also must include LGBTIs. How can the Gender Equality Bill be called the Gender Equality Bill and not talk about third genders or transgender? I seriously recognize that we need to work within this existing system, and people within the Law Ministry in Nepal, a great deal. History will judge us on our efforts to establish equality for all, but it will also judge those from the governments who are in power and who can pass the policies, how fair and just they have been introducing new laws and constitution. Future generations will judge them even more. When we sat in front of the [?] which you saw in the picture, the government hub of Nepal, and got arrested, it's easy to forget there was considerable disquiet from media and civil society that government was doing injustices to us, the gays, lesbians and transgenders, not even issuing citizenship ID to the legal citizens of Nepal. Media and civil society and the international community also contributed prominently to highlight the discrimination we had been facing and forced the government to take a step back. And we were released and the Prime Minister promised that he will issue the citizenship ID, the legal ID, as soon as possible. We are waiting for that day. As many of you may know, during our early years the third gender, Jaya, had her throat slit after being raped, and 39 Blue Diamond Society members were arrested in 2004, and there were many more such incidents. We had a tremendously difficult time, but we stood strong and stood unshaken and established ourselves much stronger, and forced the government to recognize us, showed the government that we were not here to vanish in the dark. We are telling them that until we have justice and equality we will not remain quiet, and we will not leave you quietly. My sense as a traveler around the country and internationally, visiting communities, schools and homes, is that most of the members of these societies, LGBTIs included, want to: move the conversation on, accept us as part of family and society, and believe in the principle of live and let live; to move on from a conversation of past injustices to one about how to address LGBTI underachievement, about how to deliver all-class educational standards to ensure LGBTI have the skills and resources we need to succeed, and how to ensure that LGBTI children and families have good jobs and high aspirations. The desire to see LGBTI improve their lot in life, to be better equipped to succeed and to no longer be overrepresented in negative statistics associated with education, health and crime lay at the heart of why both the national and local parties choose to work together even though neither party are compelled to do so. I hope that this conference and the support provided by Outgames is a vehicle for LGBTI activists to think about how dedication and courage can boost efforts, and how you can strengthen your relationship with the wider social sector, especially with your governments. The second big opportunity I would like to see is that of more regional Outgames within the AsiaPacific region, as the AsiaPacific region is vast in many ways, and most of the world population resides in AsiaPacific. It's important for LGBTI to make the most of Wellington's time in the spotlight, focusing and maximizing the social, economic and political return of the Outgames. I also would like to suggest that the Outgames could serve as a great opportunity for LGBTI business to showcase their products and innovative businesses ideas as well as creating connection with international markets. Which brings me to the third opportunity, which lies in making the most of Nepal's considerable legal and constitutional advancement to inspire other countries in the region. I think there is a great potential for LGBTI development and livelihoods to stand together to make the most of these opportunities. Networks like Outgames are very important in this regard. In closing my presentation today let me repeat that I think the future of LGBTIs in AsiaPacific is brighter than ever. Organizations like Outgames are important vehicles for bringing the leaders and thinkers together, and conferences like this are a great way of sparking the ideas, aspirations and movements that will lead the way. I wish you all the best for the year ahead and look forward to talking with you this afternoon. Thank you very much.[applause] Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 308
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_phylesha_brown_acton_keynote.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004131
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089425
TITLE: Phylesha Brown-Acton - AsiaPacific Outgames
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Phylesha Brown-Acton
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Ilott Theatre; MVPFAFF+; Maryan Street; Phylesha Brown-Acton; Wellington Town Hall; activism; fa'afafine; health; transcript online; transgender
DATE: 18 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Phylesha Brown-Acton delivers a keynote presentation. Phylesha is introduced by Maryan Street. The presentation happened during the third plenary session: Movement building for change.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 2010
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Phylesha Brown-Acton: Thank you very much, Maryan, for the introduction. First thing, I'd like to acknowledge te mana whenua of Aotearoa, and to the many New Zealanders here today thank you for hosting such an outstanding event. I would also like to thank management, the cooks and the cleaners, who have fed us and cleaned up after us and made us feel so welcome. Fa'afetai lava. To my Pacific sisters and brothers, although soon it will be farewell I can honestly say it is wonderful to see the Pacific finally being represented. And saying this I give sincere thanks to the Kingdom of the Netherlands for getting us here, to Barry Taylor and Jack Byrne for your assistance. Fakaue mahi. To our Asian and international delegates I need not say welcome, but I wish you safe travels home. Kia ora, Talofa lava, Kia orana, Malo e lelei, Fakalofa lahi atu, Bula vinaka, Namaste, Taloha ni, halo olketa, mauri, alofa. As you know, my name is Phylesha Brown-Acton and I'm currently the Programme Coordinator for International Development at the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. But it's also important to note that I'm not here with my NZAF cap on today, I'm here actually as a Pacific Delegate. I'm of Niuean, Cook Island, American, American Samoan and Australian descent, raised by a Tongan stepfather but founded upon a Niuean upbringing. I identify as fakafefine, akava'ine, fa'afafine and also leiti. I'm not here today to speak to make you laugh. I'm not here today to make you cry nor disrespect anyone or group. I'm here today to make a serious statement about how we feel in the Pacific based on my observations of my work thus far and after speaking to the many of you in this room during the last three days. I was initially going to emphasize what is going on in the Pacific, what work is happening currently, what has been achieved and the challenges going forward, but since being here I sense that a movement amongst us Pacific people is ready to burst. Perhaps it's the culmination of a few journeys that have been woven together. Perhaps it is the people who have been and are now involved. Perhaps it is the wonderful setting of the capital city of Aotearoa, which not too long ago had its first takatapui Mayoral candidate in Miss Carmen Rupe, and later on the world's first takatapui member of Parliament, Miss Georgina Beyer. Although the topic today is movement building for change, raising the Pacific rainbow, I want to touch on some very important topics raised by the two previous Pacific keynote speakers. Fuimaono Karl Pulotu-Endemann captured the history of the term fa'afafine so eloquently and made reference to the umbrella term LGBTI as a term that has no reference to us Pacific peoples, but rather a reference term akin to something more medical, which refers to sickness, or to fit groups within groups within groups, which goes against the very fabric of traditional Pacific terminology for us as a group. And Miss Vaitoa Toelupe from the Samoan Fa'afafine Association, who captivated us with an in-depth overview of the place that culture, respect and guardianship of spirits has in place of the fa'afafine in Samoa. Amongst many other discussions this week there were key points which I need to raise with you all today. My failure to do so would be an injustice to this amazing vibe and sense of pride I'm feeling right now. So, here is my hit list.[laughter] 1) The use of the abbreviated term LGBTI and why it doesn't fit in with us Pacific peoples. 2) The inclusion of our culturally appropriate identity terms. 3) Non-representation of Pacific peoples at AsiaPacific and global forums. The global use of the LGBTI abbreviation is overwhelming. It is a term we know so many ethnicities and people use with pride around the world. It is a term we in the Pacific understand and have been bundled into for no apparent reason other than that of application and the absence of any other term. All Pacific peoples with a different sexual orientation to straight and heterosexual shall be henceforth collectively called LGBTI. Granted, it has history and it has a place in western civilization, but in the Pacific it shows passive ignorance ? ignorance on the part of the agencies and the governments that use this term to label us. I've said it before: LGBT's name and meanings do not belong to us in the Pacific. It is not how we identify ourselves. It is not relevant to our place in society. It saddens and hurts me because I've heard a few whispers around the town hall during the conference around: Well, if their patron is the Prime Minister then why haven't they signed the Joint Statement? I am assuming they're referring to the Joint Statement on ending acts of violence and related human rights violations based on sexual orientation and gender identity. What they don't see is the lobbying work of the Samoan Fa'afafine Association at the United Nations level. And given that Samoa has just had its elections, with a crossover period of caretaker government in which no treaties can be ratified or major decisions made until a new government is sworn in, perhaps that is the real reason why. We agree and see the relevance of pressuring our governments to endorse this Joint Statement, and we see the benefits of its universiality ? make no mistake about that. But, before we even get to ink on paper, in order to achieve an endorsement of this kind or any kind we want to make sure that reference to the culturally appropriate terms for us are used so that there is more relevance to documents, and that they are not bypassed because it has made to LGBTI. Not only that, but it makes sense that the percentage of ours and our leader's buy-ins will be much higher without using what are considered in the Pacific to be culturally insensitive words and terminology. The simple government officer who sits and screens the Prime Minister's inbox may not relate to LGBTI as having anything to do with mahu, vaka sa lewa lewa, palopa, fa'afafine, akava'ine, fakaleiti, takatapui, or fakafefine, and it's often the reality in our countries because our straight-specific Island community don't get LGBTI, they get our traditional terms and our definitions.[applause] We Pacific peoples here today have a responsibility, in being a part of the rainbow family, to apply pressure to the government in the Pacific when endorsements like this need to be committed to; but if it has no cultural relevance to us that places unnecessary barriers with our leaders to even see the importance it has on us, especially when there are very few crimes of hate in Polynesia, but they're overwhelming and happening in Melanesian and Micronesian countries. Out of the 130 countries who need to endorse this Joint Statement, 22 Pacific Island countries and territories make up part of this voting number, which is a huge number for one region. Note that India gets one vote, but has one billion people, so the importance of our 22 votes must have some cultural reference in order for endorsements to happen. Here is another example: I love the vision and the statement of the Outgames. It states: For all people, whatever their sexual orientation, sex or gender identity, to live in inclusive societies with equal access to the resources and services that will ensure the physical, psychological and spiritual well being of themselves and their families, to fully participate in the economic, social, cultural and political development of their society, and also to enjoy equal protection under the laws from discrimination and violence. I was able to come to this conference because of the cultural and spiritual reference, and because there is a place at the Outgames here for us Pacific peoples. Point two: The inclusion of our culturally appropriate identity terms. How hard is it to understand that in each of these countries there is an official language and an official term for each of us? That's 22 ways to say who we are. If you want our vote on an international forum, learn 22 words. Here's a quick mnemonic I've made up to help you remember, in the spirit, of course, of the Outgames; and that is: MVPFAFFM for Mahu in Tahiti and Hawai'i. V for Vaka sa lewa lewa in Fiji. P for Palopa in Papua New Guinea. F for Fa'afafine in Samoa and American Samoa. A for Akava'ine in the Cook Islands. The second F for Fakaleiti or leiti in the Kingdom of Tonga. The third F for Fakafefine in Niue. Of the 22 Pacific Island countries and territories in the Pacific region to even incorporate all the abbreviated terms it would look something like the alphabet. But how wonderful also, as an example, that a Caucasian project officer from some entity, maybe in Australia ? sorry, Australia ? would be in Fiji, for example, for one month and talk to vaka sa lewa lewas and address them as such. To then pop over to Tahiti and speak to the mahus and address them as mahu. And then they report back to the entity, make no mention of LGBTI but use the culturally appropriate term. Imagine what would happen. Their superiors would instantly request a briefing of the cultural significance of this new terminology, and along the way that entity might learn that the only way to break into the conclave of the MVPFAFFs of the Pacific and have meaningful dialogue is just to say the word ? the right word.[applause] Imagine the pride in our faces as they speak to us in a term that we understand. We should bend over backwards ? pardon the pun ? to assist such a person and show them the inner workings of our culture and our place. Here is to hope! Where to in the future? How do we in the Pacific raise our rainbow flag? We need you to incorporate our traditional terms into your LGBTI terminology. Who cares if it reads LGBTIMVPFAFF and so on? As Marilyn Waring said in her keynote earlier this week, " Don't be afraid. Use what you have to use." And we want you to use our traditional terms. She also stated that the umbrella abbreviation of LGBTI movement can also jeopardize other movements. It could jeopardize ours. I would also like to reiterate the sentiments of thanks to the Kingdom of the Netherlands for, again, allowing the Pacific to have a voice here during this conference, as it allows for us to seek more advice from key peoples at these events and also allows us to be more in tune with the international networks and issues, and it gives us proper representation. This is the first time in history we have had the presence and heard the voices from our sisters from American Samoa, and I am so humbled by their presence. Thanks to the Kingdom of the Netherlands.[applause] It has uplifted us to feel more included in the AsiaPacific region by being at the Outgames Conference, but my only pet peeve about the AsiaPacific Outgames Conference is I haven't seen or known of any Pacific representative, so maybe that is something, Barry, for you to put into your reports, please, because we'd love to see or have someone from the Pacific be involved at that level. And in saying that, this is where I stand strong and make this bold statement: If your regional board network or entity use the AsiaPacific name, if there is no Pacific representation from Pacific peoples, then take out the Pacific context or be more specific about what part of the Pacific Ocean you represent, whether it be the Pacific Rim or of Pacific peoples. Thank you very much.[applause, singing] Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 306
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_marilyn_waring_keynote.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004124
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089418
TITLE: Marilyn Waring - AsiaPacific Outgames
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Kevin Hague; Marilyn Waring
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Auckland; Fran Wilde; Ilott Theatre; Katherine O'Regan; Marilyn Waring; The Children's Hour (film); Wellington Town Hall; activism; human rights; politics; transcript online
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Marilyn Waring delivers a keynote presentation. Marilyn is introduced by Kevin Hague. The presentation happened during the opening plenary: Intersectionality - the whole of us.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 2010
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Marilyn Waring: First of all, in this space I've been saying to myself it's almost like I'm sighing, but I'm not; I'm taking these huge breaths and exhaling with the relief of being in a space with my extended family. What I want to focus on a little bit today is what I call the silent human right – dignity. Not one the New Zealand courts have ever engaged except in minority judgments. Like many of you I've been monitoring international news, and so I noted that this week the featured debate on the BBC was the question: Is homosexuality un-African? Well!, I went. Is disability un-African? Is religion un-African? Is old age un-African? How amazing that they think they can take who we are and question whether or not a whole continent might be un-African because not only might they be part of our extended family, but they might even live in a country like South Africa where we're allowed to get married. It's been a long road for all of us to get to this hall, and I'm just going to share some of that part of my own journey. In the 1960s when I was 13 or 14, and I know this because I can remember very clearly the room in which I sat – everything about it – I began to watch a black and white movie on what used to be the Sunday afternoon cinema programme on television. It starred Audrey Hepburn and Shirley MacLaine, and both were stars in our household. But it must have been a fine day because I was alone in that room; and I watched it because it seemed to be about a girls' boarding school. It was Lillian Hellman's " The Children's Hour." Some of you, I can hear, already know this. In it Karen and Martha are just beginning to succeed in their struggle to make a school for girls a going concern. They have to discipline this young pupil who's a congenital liar and always wants everything her own way, and so the kid calls on her grandmother, who's very rich, and repeats to her that she thinks that Martha has an unnatural attachment to Karen. And grandma is horrified and she spreads the words to all the parents, and car after car begins to arrive at the main entrance of the school, loading their daughters into them and driving them away, and not a word is said and no explanation is given. But with the final child to leave they're told of the rumor. Karen thinks the lie is outrageous, but Martha declares herself guilty of ruining both their lives. " I do love you," she says. " I couldn't call it by its name before." And soon after Martha makes this confession grandma arrives to say that the granddaughter has been congenitally lying again. She agrees to a public apology. She wants to hand over a large amount of money to support the school and pay for all the damage that's been caused, and during all of this Martha leaves. And Karen hears all of this and thinks: Goodness! It's okay. We're all alright. Sits alone for some time, and then in the film you see something triggers, and she races across the school to Martha's room. She has to break the lock of the door to get in, and the cut in the film to the inside of the room simply shows a noose in silhouette and an overturned chair with a single shoe beside it. Now, the lesbian word wasn't used anywhere in the film, but that was my first lesson in what might happen to women who loved women. And despite the fact I'd had no sexual experience at all I knew I was one of them. I was amazed to discover a couple of years ago that Ann-Marie MacDonald, in her novel " The Way the Crow Flies," gives her central character exactly the same experience with " The Children's Hour." One or two years later, in fact I was shifted from Ngaruawahia High School to a private girls' boarding school to be finished off.[laughter] I was quickly introduced to a term used of some of the friendships that my contemporaries used, referred to as lesbi-friends. I had no idea what they were talking about and it took me some time to unobtrusively inquire. And when I learned the term lesbian, as I did with new words I went to the dictionary in the public library, and I discovered " The Well of Loneliness," Radclyffe Hall's novel. Of course when it was published in London the authorities declared it obscene and seized it. And the US charged the publisher with obscenity as soon as " The Well of Loneliness" appeared in print, and in the New York Court a presiding judge ruled that the book tended to debauch public morals, found the publisher guilty. And all of that was a good enough recommendation for me to hunt it down and read it. Now, the book tells the story of a girl who's born into a wealthy English family. She's nicknamed Stephen; she has tomboyish ways. Her father, Sir Phillip, loves her to bits and isn't going to get in the way of this, but is heavily influenced by both Karl Ulrichs – some of you might know his work; he certainly thought that homosexuality was natural and healthy – and Richard von Krafft-Ebing, who of course called us inverted and expanded on the theory of disease and that most homosexuals had mental illness. Sir Phillip never says anything about this to Stephen. He dies, Stephen becomes a successful novelist, falls in love with Mary, the two of them race off to live harmoniously in Paris, going to the bars, and there, of course, gay and lesbian people are portrayed as people who lead lives of despair, finding momentary relief in crème de menthe and cocaine – tragic, suicide prone, and alcoholic. Stephen loves Mary so much that she feels guilty for leading her lover into this tragic life in a seemingly hostile, unaccepting society, so she resolves to kill herself so that Mary can be freed to pursue a more rewarding life as the wife of a mutual friend. So, in my short life to that point, suicide or suicide was not great role modeling. There was no Martina and no Ellen. The media images of the '60s of the feminist movement either frankly weren't promising to me – boots, boiler suits, bikes and anger didn't do it for me. To see several dozen women, neither suicidal nor leather-coutured dykes on bikes, under a Lesbian Nation banner at the 1975 United Women's Convention was the first exposure I'd had to alternatives. It was also the year I entered the New Zealand Parliament. I remember on the first couple of days handwriting out the Mansfield: Risk! Risk anything! Care no more for the opinions of others, for those voices. Do the thing hardest on earth for you to do. Act for yourself, and face the truth. And beside it I put TS Eliot – I'm sure out of context, but it worked: And right action is freedom from past and future also. For most of us this is the aim never here to be realized; who are only undefeated because we have gone on trying. Well, in the New Zealand Parliament I was definitely the gayest MP.[laughter and applause] For nine years. I don't know what it is about this testosterone competition the lads have. Tim was always desperate to claim he was the first out MP. Obviously he missed six weeks of the Truth in 1976. It was fabulous in there for me in the National Party Caucus, especially when I was the only woman in the Caucus. I was frequently advised most Thursday mornings that most normal women didn't think like me. The opening salvo from Muldoon the night that the government fell was really interesting because it told me immediately that he wasn't interested in mediation, and that was, " What the fuck do you think you're up to now, you perverted little liar?" That's okay, he was no more seen much after that. Certainly the years have seen lots of changes in my life since the viewing of " The Children's Hour." My sexual preference was never subject to criminal sanction, thanks to the interpretation of Queen Victoria's exercise of the Royal Assent to legislation. I've been interested in the story about queens today. I actually forgot to bring all my medals, which I normally only wear on occasions like this because it says you've got to wear them in the presence of royalty.[laughter] And also I was thinking during the last contribution that not only do we have representatives of queens, but we have kings as queens, as well. In New Zealand it's especially thanks to two women members of Parliament, Fran Wilde and Katherine O'Regan, that there's been development of equality legislation. But while I'm thinking about development I should say something about working in development. I have worked in many countries where I'm not afraid to tell you that I pull out the old gold Russian wedding ring, I stick it on this finger, I carry around old photographs of my three nephews as children, I carry around a photograph of my brother, and when it's necessary to try and get domestic violence into the national plan of Bangladesh I bring them out and show everybody my children and husband. I'm not afraid to use what has to be used to get through it, and I know that some of the work I do is more important, frankly, than my own pride and integrity at that very moment. And I tire of those who think that there's only one way to be gay, all the time, and that's to be out everywhere, because you can jeopardize other people's movements in doing that.[applause] At the same time, now that everybody can Google me and find out exactly who I am I really tire of the silences and presumptions that I'm especially greeted with when I work in the Pacific. Every New Zealander who works for our High Commissioners there knows I'm gay, and most of the women activists that I'm working with know that, too, and yet I'm expected to endure tedious breakfasts, lunches and dinners while they share what's happening to their partners and their children and their grandchildren, and nobody even bothers to ask of my own parenting and children. Straight people still have a lot to learn. In New Zealand internationally we have started to say some of the right words at United Nations venues. I'm thinking in particular of the late Clive Pearson speaking on behalf of New Zealand at the Commission of Human Rights 60th Session, and on behalf of the CANZUS Group, so Canada and Australia in there as well, " Discrimination against people on the grounds of their sexual orientation takes place in all too many countries. It's silence that allows human rights abuses to flourish. It's silence that allows misunderstanding and mistrust to grow into fear, intolerance and discrimination. We are not prepared to compromise on the equality and dignity and rights of all people." But it wasn't the truth. Australia hasn't even gotten near a civil union, and civil union is certainly a compromise on our dignity. I understand our Australian brothers and sisters wanting to visit here for a civil union, but what of the essential question of human rights? In Canada I witnessed Jenny Rowan and Jools Joslin wedding. I've witnessed Brettel Dawson and Angie MacDonald's, and I wonder: since their marriages there are not marriages here, just what was I at? I'm familiar with many other types of marriages that are uncivil unions, but I'm not sure that that's the term that is appropriate here. In my Professorial Inaugural for AUT University, which is available as a podcast if you're desperate....[laughter] Actually, it's a damn good lecture! And I focused on the framing of the debate around marriage in Canada and New Zealand, and I focused on it particularly because with the exception of about two or three words New Zealand's Bill of Rights and Human Rights Act and the Canadian Charter are identical. Both of them are drawn from basically the civil and political covenant and protocol. And so, you know in politics you always understand – you're talking about really important leadership, Elizabeth – that most important political issues, just like strategic planning drafts, are framed before they hit the community. Somebody's already determined how far they think we can go. And in New Zealand from the very beginning we were framed to lose our dignity. Two phrases I recall as central to the Canadian civil union versus marriage debate: First of all from Michelle Douglas, the woman who won against the Canadian Defense Force who tried to decommission her on the basis of her sexual orientation, as she led the Ontario Gay and Lesbian Defense Task Forces. She's also in paid employment in the Ontario Attorney General's Office, which helped a bit during all of this. She talked to me about how civil union represented separate but equal, the apartheid solution. And I recalled Jean Chrétien's response to the pressure from the Liberal Party to have a referendum, " We don't have referendums on human rights for minorities," he said, " It's why we have human rights laws, so the majority cannot impose their lukewarm efforts on minorities." And from Martin Cauchon, the Attorney General in Jean Paul Chretien's cabinet, " Equivalence is not equality." And I think of those Jews in Germany; those blacks, coloreds, whites in South Africa; those colored white people in the southern states of the United States; they were all asking for the dignity of marriage. They weren't asking for all the other 102 laws to be changed. What they were centrally interested in was the equality and dignity of marriage, not equivalence and not the apartheid solution. It was a sad but understandable experience in New Zealand that our gay leaders could not wait to move until equality was the only purpose. I understand in a Parliamentary context – I certainly do – I just mourn that second-class rights were deemed enough.[applause] Yet I take heart in this gathering and the research that is available and/or ongoing. Just in the last couple of years in Australia the work by La Trobe, Deakin, and Relationships Australia on same-sex parentage families, doing work on organizing work and home in same-sex families. No surprises, really: Same-sex couples divide household labor significantly more equally than heterosexual parents. Lesbian couples share parenting tasks more equally; no matter who had the child or who breastfed among lesbian couples, you could not then determine or assume that that mother would be the primary childcarer, certainly in the longer term. The other work that they're doing around sexual orientation and mental health and well-being; things that equally we all know, but it's always great to have the rigor of academic research supporting what we always knew. The feminist movement came through this, and now our own organizations are doing the same. I want to pay tribute to Mark Henrickson and Stephen Neville, the leaders of the Lavender Island Surveys in New Zealand that gave us some of the first material that we had about ourselves. But again, their figures also tell us of the threats, of fear, of unsafe places. Only 41% of the respondents in relationships and 27% of singles reported being out to everyone in their lives. I'm enjoying reading the work of David Semp on using queer theory to inform research and practice in public mental health services, working with the Auckland District Health Board. In that tension between do we expect gay, lesbian, trans, intersex people to only be working with therapists who are like them? because very often in our institutions that kind of silo treatment is the norm. It's like sitting in the room waiting for everybody to speak up about human-rights offenses against us, and in the finish knowing since you're the only one in the room you're going to have to do it again, and yet again, and yet again, and the tedium of that. And David asking that question, and then also asking the question: But isn't it the responsibility of everybody in an institutional service? And if that's the situation, how do we keep safe? It's been a long way from " The Children's Hour" to this plenary. The majority of my life I would not have believed this conference possible in Aotearoa in safety and with dignity. To see our lives begin to figure in research on: teacher's roles in queer discourse; pedagogyan practice; the experiences of gay mothers in early childhood education; asking about how supportive union organizers are on the rights of queer workers; talking about our challenges in Tonga, Thailand, Samoa, India, Malaysia, the Philippines, Nepal; our stories; having rainbows on uniforms, rainbows in sport; focusing on our health and well being; and much of this now through what I call an appreciative inquiry approach – rights based as opposed to a catalogue of deficit indicators. We are battling towards dignity, and I hope we get there in my lifetime.[applause] Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 304
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_john_fisher_keynote.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004130
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089424
TITLE: John Fisher - AsiaPacific Outgames
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: John Fisher
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); John Fisher; Rosslyn Noonan; Wellington Town Hall; Yogyakarta Principles (2006); human rights; law; transcript online
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast John Fisher delivers a keynote presentation. John is introduced by Rosslyn Noonan.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 2010
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity John Fisher: It's good to be home. One of the hardest decisions of my life was leaving New Zealand to work internationally, but here today at this conference I've never felt more at home and more amongst the brothers and sisters of my country and of the AsiaPacific region. And I trust that you all feel as invigorated as I do to feel part of this great whanau, and to have been able to participate in this amazing event, so kudos to the organizers. There have been many highlights of this conference, but before going any further one I want to mention is the trans and intersex hui that took place on Tuesday. Congratulations to Jack for making it happen, and to all of the people who participated. I, myself, felt so immensely privileged to be able to feel so welcome in that space, and honestly for me it was one of the most thought provoking and enriching experiences of my life, and that's something that I will take away from this conference and keep with me forever. At times like this it's natural to reflect a little bit on how far we've come and some of the challenges that still lie ahead. And because I believe very strongly that the personal is political, there are many times in this room over the last few days when I've been taken back to the times when I was growing up in New Zealand, when homosexuality was still a criminal offense. And like many of you I grew up during that period, very much feeling that as a teenager I was the only one, struggling to come to terms with my sexuality at a time when all of the media portrayals were negative, and even worse, I believed the social messages that homosexuals were sick, disgusting and wrong. And I clearly remember the day when Homosexual Law Reform went through in New Zealand. I was still in the closet; I hadn't told another living soul that I was gay. I was walking to university and on every corner and in the stores and the newspaper stands the main headline was, " Homosexuality decriminalized." There was nobody else I could talk to about this, but I read those banner headlines and for just a moment the sun, it happened, came through the clouds, and it felt to me as if a weight had been lifted from my shoulders. And for the first time in my life I could stand on the soil of the country that I loved so much and feel that I belonged, and I knew then that there was nothing wrong with me, nothing that needed to be changed. What was wrong and needed to be changed was the attitudes of a society that could have made me feel the way that I did. Much has changed since then, and much like our own personal struggles, work to advance lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex rights at the United Nations is a long and slow and challenging process. Geeta reminded us yesterday of the Gandhi quote, " First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, and then you win." And certainly at the international level, and in our countries around the world, we've long been ignored, we've long felt the stigma of invisibility and silence, we've sustained the ridicule of being laughed at, we've certainly felt the backlash of being fought against; but gradually, bit by bit, I believe that change is coming and that we are winning. Rosslyn mentioned the World Conference on Human Rights in Vienna in 1993, which I spoke at, and I didn't actually realize at the time that it was the first time that an LGBT person, or a gay man in my case, had addressed a UN World Conference. I took the floor and there had been many NGO speakers before me, so I felt I was just one of a long line, and as always happens when NGOs take the floor and States lose interest the noise level in the room was rising and rising. And I began reading my prepared speech and suddenly became aware that there was dead silence that had descended across the room. And suddenly people began gathering in front of me, there were cameras going off, and at the end of it a little crowd had gathered. But what stood out for me was a delegate who came up to me, and I could tell from his badge that he was from one of the Government Delegations, though I couldn't see which, and he came up to me and shook my hand and he had tears in his eyes and said, " Thank you. That's the first time I've heard those words pronounced in a UN space," and then he kind of looked nervously over his shoulder and disappeared into the crowd. And it reminded me, particularly as we see how far we have come these days, that there was a time when one couldn't say the words lesbian or transgender in the UN space, and to do so provoked an immediate and vigorous backlash. We still face challenges today at the international level. Many of you will be aware that in 2003 Brazil presented a resolution on sexual orientation and human rights. At that point it did not include gender identity although subsequent initiatives have. But when it presented the resolution there was such a backlash that it was deferred for a year, and then for another year, and eventually quietly withdrawn from the Human Rights Council agenda without even being discussed, let alone put to a vote. Just last year States at the United Nations General Assembly gathered together to vote a reference to sexual orientation out of a resolution on extrajudicial executions, because some States couldn't even tolerate the idea that we should acknowledge that killings against members of our communities are wrong. Thankfully that decision was subsequently reversed, although again, gender identity was not included in the resolution, signaling how far we still have to go to raise awareness and increase respect for the rights of those who are transgender, transsexual and intersex. One of the themes of this conference has been the Yogyakarta Principles, and I think the cover of the guide is there on the screen, and you have received the Principles in your conference kits. These are a set of principles on the application of international human rights law in relation to issues of sexual orientation and gender identity. They were developed to fulfill a gap in international human rights protection where many States refuse to recognize international human rights law as even applying to those of us who are lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender or intersex. Of course the protections are there. They're there in all of the international instruments, but it was necessary, and felt necessary by the participating experts, to meet, to gather together and to put in one document these standards which affirm that everybody has the right to life, that no one should be subject to torture regardless of their sexual orientation or gender identity, that everyone has a right to freedom of expression, to non-discrimination and access to healthcare and housing and education, to bodily integrity, and to affirm for ourselves our own identities without State interference. Some people have described the Yogyakarta Principles as groundbreaking, but I actually disagree. They break no new ground. They are simply an affirmation of the fundamental principle that runs throughout international human rights law and is reflected in the first article of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights: that all human beings are free and equal in dignity and rights, and that all human beings includes every one of us; that we are the equal of every other human being on this planet, that we're all connected and we're all entitled to enjoy the same freedom, dignity and rights. It's a principle so obvious that it almost shouldn't need stating, but sadly, too often it does. As the patterns of human rights violations around the world remind us so tragically on such a regular basis, whether it's a lesbian who is raped in an attempt to cure her of her sexual orientation, whether it's a transgender person who is beaten or killed on the streets, with little State interest or police response, whether it's a gay teenager who takes his own life because he cannot stand any longer the abuse that he faces from his peers, the Yogyakarta Principles continue to have resonance precisely because they remind us that we are all entitled to enjoy these basic human rights, protections, and more importantly they provide us with a tool to remind our governments that they have a solemn responsibility as members of the international community to ensure that our rights are respected just as those of any other citizen, of any other human being. At the same time we know that our voices will not be silenced, and it's also fitting on a conference like this and in our lives as we move forward to reflect on the progress that we have seen. I mentioned that there was a time when words like lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex were not even named in UN fora, but much of that has changed. And if I can make this thing work, this is an excerpt from an address that the United Nations Secretary General, Ban Ki-moon, made on World Human Rights Day, December 10th last year. And in talking on World Human Rights Day, which is the anniversary of the adoption of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Ban Ki-moon specifically spoke at the United Nations General Assembly in New York at an event organized to address issues of sexual orientation and gender identity. And in his speech he said, " It is not called the Partial Declaration of Human Rights, it is not the Sometimes Declaration of Human Rights, it is the Universal Declaration, guaranteeing all human beings their basic human rights, without exception. When our fellow humans are persecuted because of their sexual orientation or gender identity we must speak out. Human rights are human rights everywhere for everyone."[applause] And to me it's an amazingly powerful reminder when we see how we've moved from the days when they just couldn't be named to one where the Secretary General of the United Nations, the highest figure in the UN hierarchy, is taking the floor on his own initiative and calling for all States to end human rights violations based on sexual orientation and gender identity. We've seen many great signs of progress in regions and countries around the world as well. One of the powerful new tools that the United Nations has adopted for improving the human rights situation in States around the world is the Universal Periodic Review. It's called universal because every single UN member State, large and small, must come before the United Nations Human Rights Council on a repeating four-year basis and present their human rights situation, receive recommendations from any other State around the world as to how to improve their human rights situation, and give a response and make commitments as to what they will do to address those concerns. And we've seen tremendous take-up throughout the Universal Periodic Review by LGBTI activists in countries and regions around the world to hold their governments accountable and to make recommendations to decriminalize same-sex conduct, to ensure that trans people have access to government documentation that accords with their self-defined gender identity, to ensure that sexual orientation and gender identity are included as grounds in non-discrimination acts, to ensure that States undertake obligations to train police officers to better respond to hate crimes against members of our communities. The array of issues is only as limited as the issues that we, as our communities, choose to put before the United Nations. Of course, States can give whatever responses they wish. Sometimes they are favorable, sometimes they are not, but at least they must respond to all recommendations and answer to the concerns and to the demands of our communities. A very positive example recently was Nauru, a small Island State, as you know, which presented before the Human Rights Council just about a month ago. And in their own State presentation the Minister of Justice from Nauru said, " Yes, we still have colonial laws prohibiting consensual same-sex conduct. These laws are anachronistic and we pledge to repeal them." And that, to me, is a tremendous example of how we can use the international tools to make sure that these laws are changed, and how governments across the region are themselves gradually beginning to realize that their own laws are outdated and that they need to change. We've spoken a number of times at the conference about the Joint Statement on ending violence, criminal sanctions and related human rights violations based on sexual orientation and gender identity. This will be presented at the Human Rights Council next Tuesday if it's to remain in full swing, although we gave today I think as a deadline for governments to respond. If you still are in touch with your governments we won't turn anybody away if they still come forward on Monday and beg to be added to the list. I'm pleased to advise that as of now we now have more than 80 States who have supported, and in particular....[applause] In particular, in the last 24 hours we've seen support from Guatemala, Ecuador and East Timor. As we've also heard, however, there is concern about a potential counterstatement, and there's even concern that States hostile to the Joint Statement may try and present a negative resolution which has even greater impact in restricting the rights and the ability of the international mechanisms to address issues of concern to members of our communities. So of course the work will continue throughout next week, both to promote the positive aspects, but also to respond to the challenges that predictably we continue to face. I mentioned yesterday that one of the States that has supported the Joint Statements just within the last 24 to 48 hours is the government of Rwanda, and this also, I think, is a significant example of how times are changing even within spaces that are difficult. And I wanted to read you just a short excerpt from a speech made by the Ambassador of Rwanda in the General Assembly in December last year when the amendment to include sexual orientation in the resolution on killings came up for a vote. And the Ambassador of Rwanda took the floor before the entire General Assembly of the United Nations and said, " People with a different sexual orientation continue to be the target of murder in many of our societies, and are even more at risk than many of the other groups listed. This is, unfortunately, a reality, and recognizing that does not in any way constitute a call for special rights, but is simply a cry to ensure that their fundamental right, the right to life, a right enjoyed by you and by me, is not violated. To refuse to recognize this reality for legal or ideological or cultural reasons would have the consequence of continuing to hide our heads in the sand, and of failing to alert States to those very real situations which break families. Believe me, Mr President, that a human group does not need to be legally defined to be the victim of execution or massacre. Indeed, Rwanda had this bitter experience 16 years ago. That is why the delegation of Rwanda will vote in favor of this amendment and calls on other delegations to do the same." And it's clear, I think, that when States from regions around the world are drawing upon their own histories, their own experiences of discrimination, of violence, of massacre, to recognize that we all are part of one human family and to commit to recognizing the equal rights of members of our communities, then there is great hope for the future and great hope for moving forward. Of course this kind of change has not happened by itself. It happens because of the work and the dedication and the commitment and the bravery of activists in countries around the world, and that's where one of the most powerful new tools for advancing and implementing the Yogyakarta Principles comes in. Many of you will have heard about the Activist's Guide to the Yogyakarta Principles. Yup, I've got it, and this is a copy of the Guide itself. At the top we have the website address, at which you can download a copy of the Guide, and there's also there an order form at which you can order as many copies as you like. What's powerful about the Guide is that it provides a tool kit for understanding the Yogyakarta Principles in more detail and gives examples of case studies of how the Yogyakarta Principles and the legal standards outlined in the Yogyakarta Principles have been successfully applied by activists in countries and regions around the world. And I have to say, as one of the people who had been involved in the process leading to the adoption of the Yogyakarta Principles, I'm constantly amazed at the creativity and the uses by which activists around the world have applied these legal principles. On their face the Yogyakarta Principles could easily be seen as a dry legal document without much relevance or impact in our lives, but in fact activists have taken them up and used them around the world. In South Africa there is a calendar dedicated to the Yogyakarta Principles with each month dedicated to a different principle and a quote from an activist on what that principle means in their lives. There's a group that has used the Yogyakarta Principles to lobby for education rights in Guyana. There's a document which maps the principles against the Nigerian Constitution, and for each Yogyakarta Principle it's compared with an equivalent commitment in the Constitution of Nigeria. And I have a couple of other examples here as well which I wanted to share with you. This also is a publication that is being produced in Kenya by activists there in collaboration with the Kenyan Human Rights Commission, and therefore representing a great example of a partnership between activists and their national Human Rights Commission to advance these issues within their society. This is a comic that's been produced in Indonesian – it's in English and Indonesian – by groups within Indonesia, and it's a wonderful example of a comic illustration of the Yogyakarta Principles, telling the story of a young woman who's coming out as a lesbian in school, faces harassment and violence, rejection by her family, but goes on to discover love. And at each stage of her life, in each chapter of the comic, it's compared against one of the principles of the Yogyakarta Principles, whether it's the right to education, the right to be free from violence, the right to participate in family and cultural life, or ultimately, as the book concludes, the right to found a family, which is also one of the internationally recognized human rights. This one I really like. It's a translation of the Yogyakarta Principles into... I wasn't initially sure what language. Does anybody know what language? Okay, it's actually Lithuanian, as I discovered recently. I just thought it was really colorful, and the inside is even better. I must say our own visual creativity, when the initial Yogyakarta Principles were developed, was rather limited. It's this kind of drab, purple book. But that's the other thing that's wonderful about sharing it with our communities is that since then there have been many more colorful examples and translations that have been produced. So these are just some examples of the ways in which the Yogyakarta Principles have been given life by activists around the world. I'll just conclude in relation to the Activist's Guide by mentioning, as I did earlier, that on the website there is an order form at which you can order as many copies of either the Principles themselves or the Activist's Guide in different languages. And that's our organization should you wish to find out more about our work. That's my little plug there. But I guess in closing I'd like to say that although the Yogyakarta Principles were developed by international human rights experts they now belong to all of us, as does our struggle for equality more broadly. And having participated in this conference for the last few days, I can certainly say that it could be in no better hands in terms of the next steps. We know that there will be challenges ahead, but when we face those challenges and whenever we feel alone or isolated in our struggles, whenever we feel that we need to take heart, I'd like to ask you to remember this moment and to take a moment now to look around this room and feel the spirit and the energy and the positive engagement of all of the people who are here, and know that you are never alone. We are from all corners of the region, we are from beyond, we are many but we are also one. And when we raise our voices together we know that our cause is just, our spirit is true and as a movement we are unstoppable. Kia ora tātou.[applause] Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 301
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_grace_poore_keynote.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004128
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089422
TITLE: Grace Poore - AsiaPacific Outgames
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Grace Poore
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Grace Poore; Wellington Town Hall; human rights; transcript online
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Grace Poore delivers a keynote presentation.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 2010
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Grace Poore: Thank you. I want to thank Joy Liddicoat, who I think is not here, for making it possible for me to be here, and also Rainbow Wellington. This opportunity actually is not only about meeting new people, connecting with people I've already met, but very particularly to see what kinds of relationships IGLHRC, the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission, can form with groups in the Pacific Islands. We often talk about the capacity of local groups, and we need to pay attention to whether international organizations have the capacity to do certain kinds of work, and that rather than tokenizing and doing work because it belongs to a title, to actually look at what that means. So although my title says that I'm the Programme Coordinator for Asia and the Pacific Islands, I had made a commitment in my second year to begin working and seriously doing work in the Pacific Islands, and that has not happened. And one of the reasons that I'm hoping that I will be meeting with several people is to see: What is it that we can do? Can we do it? Can we do it well? And, what shouldn't we be doing? So I am very grateful for this opportunity to be here to actually do that. Thank you. I was invited to focus my presentation on my experiences in movement building for social change in Asia, and also at the international level, and to share what this experience has taught me about what is required for successful movement building, and what some of the challenges are. I'm not really going to do that. I'm actually going to be sharing the insights of activists in Asia who have been working for many years to improve conditions for the lives of LGBT people, and then to make some observations of my own about the trends that are emerging in the region. Yesterday Geetanjali Misra highlighted the successful movement building in India around Section 377, and the development of lesbian organizing in response to the Hindu right-wing reaction to the movie " Fire." I would like to take this opportunity to highlight two different parts of Asia, northeast Asia and southeast Asia, paying attention to three different approaches to advocating for LGBT human rights: one in Hong Kong, one in Vietnam and one in Cambodia, where different political contexts have shaped and continue to shape how LGBT activists define the term " movement," and how they strategically navigate their activism. In 2005 a group of LGBT activists in Hong Kong, who made up the Women's Coalition of Hong Kong, decided that they wanted to do something for International Day Against Homophobia. There were 10 of them. All they had was about $100 US, and right away they knew that they could not afford to outreach through advertising and printing posters. The valuable resource they did have was an already established network of credible friendships and working relationships with activists in other social movements such as feminists, women's groups, human right's groups, youth groups, economic right's groups and religious groups. Using Facebook, email alerts and egroups they reached out to these other movements. They also leafleted gay and lesbian bars to introduce their group and publicize the call to gather for International Day Against Homophobia. An unprecedented 300 people, which is a big number for Hong Kong, showed up in one of the busiest intersections of the city. And since that year there have been IDAHO and Pride gatherings on the streets of Hong Kong every year. The same outreach and coalition strategy was used by the Women's Coalition of Hong Kong to get domestic-violence protections for same-sex couples; now again, there was success. Despite strong resistance from Christian church groups, many of them funded by groups in the UK and the United States, Hong Kong now covers same-sex couples under its domestic violence law, which, however, was not called a domestic-violence law, to appease the church, but instead was renamed – and Connie, I hope I get this right – Domestic and Cohabiting Relationships Violence Ordinance.[laughter] Building and investing in broad coalitions has worked for Hong Kong LGBTI activists, particularly because of the public, visible and vocal support from non-LGBT supporters. Sometimes coalition support is behind the scenes – it's private, it's quiet. The trouble with that is it actually invisiblizes that support, and it is critical for LGBT movements in Asia and the Pacific Islands to receive public support from allies, particularly in a context where there is so much public and private homophobia and transphobia. When I asked Connie, who is the founder of the Women's Coalition of Hong Kong, who's here at this conference... is that Connie there? I think so. So, when I asked Connie what helped move that moveable middle in those many, many movements, what helped make that difference in getting the broad coalition support? he said that after over 10 years of organizing for LGBT rights Hong Kong society had changed, people are more accepting of LGBT rights, the LGBT movement has become bigger, activists in the LGBT movement have alliances that they didn't have before and they have gained a lot of experience on how to strategize effectively. Working together on that domestic violence law reform was a catalyst, actually, in reinforcing those alliances. The challenge now for the LGBT movement in Hong Kong is the Christian-right movement, which according to Connie had grown stronger over the last few years. While only 10% of Hong Kong people are Christian, over 50% of schools in Hong Kong are funded by Christian groups. This gives them incredible access and control over the kind of education and the social services that youth receive. In addition, several highly-placed officials in Hong Kong government are Christian, which has added greater support for the family values policy that the Christian groups are pushing for in Hong Kong. Now, a quick glimpse of Vietnam. When I asked activists there how they would describe the movement for LGBT rights in Vietnam, their first response was, " What movement? We have no movement." The word " movement" in Vietnam is associated with confrontation, and as one of the Directors of an organization that is documenting discrimination against lesbians and gay men explained, " Our approach is not confrontation. We promote education." He said that by carrying out research and documenting the experiences of gays and lesbians in Vietnam – they only focus on gays and lesbians – that by documenting the experiences of gays and lesbians in Vietnam and presenting this information in a scientific way, he believed that Vietnamese society would be more open to challenging their ideas about gay people even if their personal beliefs and customs are rooted in a tradition of non-acceptance. As he explains, enlightenment through education is promoted by the government, so this then becomes the entry point for LGBT advocacy without using the word " movement;" without using the word " activist." This strategy is premised on the expectation that when people have information that they never had before they have an opportunity to challenge their flawed thinking, which is based on misinformation and old ideas. In other words, they believe that people are educable. Now, Cambodia is the third country that I want to focus on. Cambodia also uses the education approach, but their focus of the education strategy is the LGBT community and not so much the general public. In 2009 Rainbow Coalition Kampuchea, RoCK, organized a three-day-long weekend workshop during Pride. 300 to 400 women who love women came from the capital city of Phnom Penh, but more significantly, they came from distant cities and provinces, travelling sometimes for a night-and-a-half on a bus. Now, according to RoCK this was the first time that lesbians have been invited to do anything for Pride, which has been celebrated in Cambodia since 2004. Now, when I say Pride activities I don't mean rallies and marches on the streets. These activities are low-profile activities that take place indoors, because when we think Pride people usually assume outdoors. So for instance a Pride party would be held in a hotel, and like 500 gay men would be at the party. This series of workshops that took place all took place on the premises of HIV/AIDS NGOs, where the gay directors very quietly allowed them to use the space. And I say quietly because they were really not supposed to do that. Now what's interesting about Cambodia is that the people who mobilized the Cambodian lesbians were foreigners. They were from the UK. They were basically white people from the UK and Ireland who came under the VSO – Voluntary Services Organization. Now, they saw that the lesbians were marginalized and invisible in Cambodia. They raised $6,000 US from supportive American, European and overseas Cambodians and organized the workshop. As one of the VSO staff said, " It's hard for lesbians to come out in Cambodia. Because we are foreigners and white we could risk being out, and we had access to resources that the local lesbian community did not." Now since 2009, that workshop that was held, lesbians in Cambodia have met again to address the key issues in their lives, one of which is violence. And they have formed a national email network through which they keep in touch regularly. Now, this kind of arrangement where foreigners drive a local movement can be a problem, and I think that sometimes under very careful circumstances it may be necessary to have this kind of arrangement, particularly where it is not possible for local activists, in a particular point of time, to initiate a movement. But again, I think that it has to be very carefully monitored, it has to be done in partnership, there have to be a lot of caveats, it has to be short-term, and priority has to be given to developing local capacity and developing local leadership as soon as possible. I think that three of the four VSO people have now left Cambodia because their terms are now over, but two or three of the Cambodian lesbians that convened in 2009 have now emerged as leadership to continue the work. Also, the National Human Rights Commission of Cambodia has begun a documentation project on violence against women, and when they heard that there is this lesbian network that is forming in Cambodia and that violence is one of their issues, they have now invited that lesbian network to be included in the documentation project, which would not have happened if this hadn't come before. So, from the three examples I hope that it is clear that movement is not a monolithic concept. It depends on context and possibilities that people have in that context. There can be a movement with few people, because only they can be visible and vocal. You can have a movement from outside a country because it's not possible with activists inside the country. A movement may start because local people who have been educated abroad come back to connect, collaborate and inspire. But the integrity of movement building is linked to who suffers the consequences of being part of a movement, and who bears the brunt of what that movement does. Sometimes people outside the country may drive a movement from outside, but they don't face any of the risks within the country that they are advocating for. Similarly, people inside a country may internationalize an issue without first consulting with other people in that country, so the question becomes: who represents who? Since I have a few more minutes... yes? I would like to talk about new media technology and how new media technology is actually changing the landscape of movement building in some parts of Asia. When I say new media technology I mean Facebook and Twitter, and half of this stuff I don't even have. Internet – you know, all of this stuff. But mass numbers of people can now join movements that spring into action thousands of miles away. Now, some of the complaints about this strategy are that you can press a button, you can send a letter of protest, you can sign on to a petition, and you may be thousands of miles away from a country that's initiating it. And then you feel satisfied because you somehow are now part of this movement and you feel great that you've done something, but you know nothing about that country; you know nothing about their issues. And trying to fit a critical message into 160 characters – the tweet thing – it's a challenge to come up with it, but it's a challenge of how do you communicate and convey details to people about issues of that campaign? Having said that, though, there are people in Asia who rely on and find that this new media technology is very useful. In 2007 Singapore gay activist Johnson Ong sent out an online petition. He collected 8,000 signatures worldwide for the repeal of the Singapore sodomy law. Also in 2007 a South Korean LGBT coalition of activists initiated an international cyber demonstration against Lee Myung-bak, who's currently the President of South Korea, at the time he was the presidential candidate and he made some public comments that LGBT people are abnormal. In 2009 the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission mobilized an online letter-writing campaign to protest the Philippine's Election Commission decision to deny Ang Ladlad, which is an LGBTI party, the right to participate in national elections. And the Election Commission said that LGBT people offend religious beliefs and they are an immoral influence on the country's youth and therefore they should not be allowed to run for the national elections. Hundreds of letters were sent to the Philippine's Commission from all over: from Latin America, North America, Asia, Europe to the Philippine's Commission. And the feedback that we got is the local activists felt really bolstered by getting these kinds of letters, and that it made a difference; it did make a difference to them. It also sent a message to the violators, meaning the Philippine's Commission, that the world is watching. On the downside of new technology, people who promote hate and violence against LGBT people also use new technology. They monitor our websites. They use the same things that we use, and they can use it to distort, they can use it to mobilize, they can seriously endanger people's lives. One recent example is a virulent hate speech and death threats made by a blogger who saw a video post by a gay man in Malaysia who was making a positive statement about his identity. Now, while he received many, many supportive responses, the cyber attacks against him were frightening, and these raise important questions for us: What is the role of law enforcement in these kinds of situations, when these kinds of death threats are done? How do they protect our vulnerable citizens from such terror? And I think the Human Rights Commissions need to sort of get on the ball and also catch up with technology and see what kinds of things they can do, and how does this come under the work that they do? I've talked about some of the good things that have happened in the three countries, and given a sense that things are moving. Sunil talked about looking forward and not holding on to the grievances of the past, but I do feel like I need to end on this note: 10 countries in Asia, 9 countries in the Pacific Islands, criminalize consensual same-sex relations. And even in countries where there are no sodomy laws there is little or no political will in many of the countries in Asia, on the part of the government, to remove a whole bunch of other laws that target LGBT people – everything from public nuisance laws, pornography laws, adultery laws, morality laws, obscenity laws, and respect of religion laws. And this lack of political will is influenced by the presence of dominant religious ideology and cultural conservatives. And this religious leadership functions as gatekeepers, and in many instances they encourage policy makers to reject efforts to decriminalize sexual orientation and gender identity, and to shut down efforts to introduce non-discrimination provisions in the constitution. This has happened in South Korea, which has a small population of Christians. This has happened in Singapore, which has a very small population – like 2% – of Christians. This is happening in Hong Kong. This is now starting to happen in China. This is starting to happen in many other countries, as well. The rise of ultra-conservative religious groups and their influence with policy makers is also evident in Indonesia, Malaysia. Using home grown expressions of imported religious homophobia, Christian groups and hard-line Islamist groups are actually a trend that I think we need to pay attention to. They don't only affect LGBT rights, they affect women's rights. There's a lot of overlap that takes place. They incite public vigilantism, they promote homophobic backlash in the media and they are often endorsed by silent collusion of the government in the countries that they operate in. So, I think that these are things that we should pay attention to.[applause] Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 300
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_geetanjali_misra_keynote.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004126
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089420
TITLE: Geetanjali Misra - AsiaPacific Outgames
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VOICES: David Huebner; Geetanjali Misra
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); David Huebner; Geetanjali Misra; Ilott Theatre; India; activism; human rights; transcript online
DATE: 17 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Geetanjali Misra delivers a keynote presentation. Geetanjali is introduced by David Huebner, the United States Ambassador to New Zealand. The presentation happened during the second plenary session: Our rights across the Asia Pacific region - a snapshot.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 2010
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Geetanjali Misra: Good morning everybody, and thank you to Barry and the organizers for inviting me to be here. It's a privilege and an honor. So, now I have a stopwatch because I've gone from 25 to 20 minutes, and I have some clips so I'm going to be looking for some technical support to get this going. So, I'm going to present a snapshot of the LGBT movement in India, and I'm going to focus my talk a lot more on the lesbian movement because I can only give a snapshot. It is India, it's diverse, it's one billion people. Okay, just as the previous speaker said, they say it like it is. We in India never say it like it is. We have one billion people and we never talk about sex, leave alone heterosexual sex, so therefore the LGBTI movement has come out of a very complicated context. And I don't want to belabor the context but the Indian society is very traditional, and LGBTI individuals have often been stereotyped as coming only from educated, westernized elites, with those from poorer and more marginalized groups usually seen as victims of the sex-work industry rather than people exercising choices. The rise of Hindu fundamentalisms in the past two decades has made the environment more challenging still. The BJP party, that's their sign, and its followers, including women, have promoted the idea of the chaste, married, heterosexual woman as a symbol of pure India, with anyone contravening these ideals as beyond the pale and persecuted. On the other hand there have been some advantages that facilitated the rise of a new social movement. Firstly, civil society in India is traditionally very strong, and the women's movement, which would eventually produce a number of lesbian activists, was very prominent and well organized. Secondly, from the late 1980s India received significant funding for HIV/AIDS prevention efforts which helped bring LGBT issues into the fore, and it persuaded some policymakers that ostracizing these groups would be counterproductive and more likely to spread HIV than curtail it. But even these advantages were mixed blessings. The women's movement was very reluctant to engage with lesbian issues in the early days, and the relationship between the two movements was often hostile. Feminists felt that women had much bigger problems than those faced by a small number of lesbians and bisexual women, and that associating themselves with lesbians might allow the Hindu right to tarnish feminism and reverse the wider gains they had made. So, LGBT activists were not allowed to talk at national conferences of women's movements; for example when feminists did stray into same-sex sexuality they mainly talked about the lesbian sphere as a site of violence rather than about the positive and pleasurable aspects of same-sex love and desire, and the right to such relationships. And the HIV/AIDS movement was also a mixed blessing, as it had a tendency to medicalize same-sex sexuality rather than looking at the social context or the positive side of relationships. This tended to enhance the image of lesbians and other minority groups as victims in need of treatment rather than agents with control over their lives who sought acceptance by society as the best medicine. These constraints, and the pressure of tradition, meant that the lesbian movement in India was later in getting off the ground than it had been in some western countries, and although there had been some signs of life during the 1980s it was really a series of events that provided the spark for more concerted action. The first of these events was a same-sex marriage between two policewomen in a small town in central India. This was widely reported in the newspapers and resulted in the two women losing their jobs, but their family and friends supported them. And the widespread reporting of the story made other lesbian women across the country come out and realize that they were not alone, that abuse and prejudice were not inevitable if they came out, and that same-sex relationships were not the exclusive preserve of wealthy women from the big westernized cities. After this story broke several other reports of women marrying began to emerge, along with a number of tragic stories about same-sex couples committing suicide; of women and girls for whom social stigma were preventing them from being together. Although none of these women were part of a movement their stories began to raise awareness and encourage would-be activists that mobilization might be possible. Then came the famous film, " Fire," which really – and if you'll excuse the pun – set the movement alight. The film is about a relationship between two women who escape their oppressive marriages by falling in love with each other and beginning a serious sexual relationship. The women were named Radha and Sita, who are popular figures in Hindu mythology. The film directly challenged the patriarchal Hindu construction of the pure, chaste, heterosexual woman. It was released overseas in 1996 and in India in 1998. Many people were surprised it passed the Censor Board, because although there had been some queer films before they had never attempted to reach a mainstream audience. When it was released " Fire" attracted huge audiences and sparked an enormous amount of discussion. I'm going to show you a one minute clip of " Fire." So, the woman in the red is also a member of Parliament, and she doesn't really talk about lesbian issues.[laughter] She talks about slum people and poverty and many other social issues, but not... but she did do that film, and it did make her famous. So, the film " Fire" also sparked a serious backlash. The women's wing of the Hindu fundamentalist party, the Shiv Sena, disrupted screenings of the film in Bombay and Delhi by vandalizing movie theatres and tearing down advertising posters, and they threatened to stop the film from being screened across the country. The protesters argued that the film was perverted and that lesbianism was not part of Indian, and especially Hindu, culture. At first the film's supporters were taken aback by all this, but they soon regrouped and fought back. And for the first time, LGBTI individuals came out onto the streets of Delhi and Bombay in organized groups to protest. So, we do have to thank the Shiv Sena for forcing us to come together. These counter-attackers argued that homosexuality was part of Hindu culture and that the Shiv Sena's image of India did not match reality. Lesbian groups in India held candlelight protests and meetings and marches, and in Bombay there were sit-ins in front of movie theatres that had stopped showing the film. Posters were put up around the city and there was a 300-woman march which received widespread media coverage. Gay men had begun to agitate publicly for change six years earlier when an organization working on HIV/AIDS organized a rally in Delhi against police harassment of gay men. But this was the first time that lesbians had a visible public presence in India. In the wake of " Fire," groups like the Campaign for Lesbian Rights in India and PRISM emerged to make the demands for improved rights more concrete and formal. CALERI's aim was to raise awareness of lesbianism and dispel the myths surrounding it, as well as advocating for lesbian rights. And among PRISM's major achievements had been to persuade feminists that sexuality is an issue that should concern them, and that because sexuality is used by patriarchal societies as a tool to control women, feminists should work on these issues even if they themselves are heterosexual. Much of this early work was about reacting to harms and injustice such as lesbian suicides, or of attempted repression of lesbians by the Shiv Sena. But as the lesbian movement grew it forged links with organizations representing gay and bisexual men, and as LGBT activism became more organized the objectives became bigger, and the movement soon turned its focus to Section 377 of the Indian Penal Code. There is a whole workshop on 377 that Sumit is leading tomorrow, so hopefully some of the details of it will be covered there. But Section 377 was authored by Lord Macaulay, the President of the Indian Law Commission, in 1860. It was part of Britain's attempt to impose Victorian values on its biggest colony. The law was still in place at the turn of the millennium, and there are numerous documented cases of the law being used as a weapon to harass, threaten and blackmail LGBT individuals and groups. While the law wasn't used that often to bring successful prosecutions, as it was difficult to prove that carnal intercourse against the order of nature had taken place in private, it created a climate of criminality around sexual minority groups. Just the threat of arrest could be used by the authorities to discriminate against LGBT people. For example, in the State of Gujarat a woman underwent a sex change and married a woman and was the subject of a high-court petition calling for criminal action under Section 377 on the grounds that she was still a woman and therefore engaging in a lesbian relationship. 377 also made life difficult for groups working on HIV/AIDS to reach people who might be at risk. In 2001 four activists working on HIV/AIDS in a small town called Lucknow had been distributing pamphlets and condoms to gay men, and whose work was recognized by the State AIDS Control Agency, were accused of running a gay sex club and they were charged under Section 377. There was a case where a group of physicians recommended that condoms be distributed in a Delhi prison where there were high reported rates of homosexual sex. The prison authorities refused because homosexual sex is a crime under Section 377, and distributing condoms would mean condoning a criminal act. So, the LGBTI movement mobilized to have this part of the law read down. This had been first attempted before " Fire" by a group representing gay men, but the petition they made to the Delhi High Court withered and was forgotten about. Then in 2001 the Naz Foundation India Trust, another Delhi NGO whose workers had suffered police harassment during HIV/AIDS education campaigns among marginalized communities, joined with the Lawyer's Collective, a legal organization working for the rights of people affected by HIV/AIDS. They petitioned the Delhi High Court to read down Section 377 to exclude private, consensual sex between adults. Child-right's groups were opposed to the entire law being repealed as it is the only law under which some types of sexual abuse of minors can be prosecuted. After some legal wrangling a coalition of NGOs working on human-rights issues, called Voices Against 377, joined the petition. This was an important alliance because Voices Against 377 brought together a large number of NGOs working to strengthen gay, lesbian and transgender rights, along with child-right's activists, feminist groups and other human-rights groups. As the momentum grew new groups which had been isolated and reticent to make themselves known came forward to join up and add their voices. So, the coalition was able to provide stories from people whose lives had been torn apart by fear of prosecution and blackmail from police, and others who took advantage of the law. These testimonials showed how damaging the law was and they made such an impression on the judges that they were quoted in the final judgment. So, this 377 campaign, like the film " Fire" before it, was a rallying point which strengthened the LGBTI movement and gave it a greater profile and a stronger organization. This was helped by Voices Against 377's decision to shift the focus of the petition from a health-based case to a human-rights case. It no longer focused the case on issues of morality or what constitutes natural sex, but it brought consent to the fore and highlighted the discrepancies between 377 and the guarantees of the Indian Constitution to respect privacy, liberty and non-discrimination. By doing this they were able to include other movements not strictly related to LGBT rights in their cause. The campaign's advocacy strategy was based on large-scale demonstrations, press conferences, and there was a Million Voices Campaign which gathered issues of thousands of signatures opposed to Section 377, including the signatures of many who were directly affected by the law. The Lawyers Collective organized a lot of meetings with legal advocacy groups and local groups in major cities. So the judgment came on July 2nd, 2009, after an eight-year campaign. The Delhi High Court ruled that the provision of Section 377 in India's Penal Code that criminalizes private, consensual sex between same-sex adults violates the country's Constitution and international human-rights conventions. The two judges ruled that consensual sex amongst adults is legal, which includes even gay sex. That's part of the judgment. I'm not going to read that. But the judges also said that where society can display inclusiveness and understanding, such persons can be assured of a life of dignity and non-discrimination. They said, " In our view the Indian Constitutional Law does not permit the Statute to read criminal law to be held captive by the popular misconceptions of who the LGBT people are. It cannot be forgotten that discrimination is antithesis of equality and that it is the recognition of equality which will foster the dignity of every individual." So, what next? Even though the ruling has sparked massive celebrations across the country by LGBT groups who saw decriminalization as a major step towards acceptance by society, there's still a lot of work to be done. Anjali Gopalan, the Executive Director of the Naz Foundation, said, " We have finally entered the 21st Century. The judgment that decriminalizes adult, consensual same-sex sexual activity is one of the positive steps that have been taken towards affirming the rights of LGBT persons in India." But we have a long way to go legally. For example, family and employment law may continue to discriminate against people based on their sexual preference. We don't know if same-sex Indian couples will be able to marry or adopt children, or how inheritance and tax laws will apply for same-sex couples, or whether workplace discrimination will be outlawed. And we don't know if such laws will be strictly enforced. Social change is needed and we need to basically take the content of the judgment and publicize it much more. We need to disseminate the message of 377 and embed its vision of greater tolerance into society, and there is a lot of work going on to achieve this. This is now – currently: There are marches in every city, there are support groups for LGBT people, lots of books have been written about sexuality, there are books that exist in regional languages that have come out, a lot of Bollywood movies now have queer themes; and these are all parts of this thriving movement. The LGBT community is becoming more visible. But there is still a long way to go, and of course as the religious right's outraged response to the 377 judgment shows, the LGBTI movement in India has advanced some distance down a road once mapped out by Gandhi, who, although far from being a sexual radical knew a few things about activism.[laughter]" First they ignore you," he said, " and then they laugh at you, and then they fight you; then you win." I like to think we've reached the third stage at least. Thank you very much.[applause] Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 289
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_fuimaono_karl_pulotu_endemann_keynote.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004123
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089417
TITLE: Fuimaono Karl Pulotu-Endemann - AsiaPacific Outgames
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VOICES: Fuimaono Karl Pulotu-Endemann; Kevin Hague
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Fuimaono Karl Pulotu-Endemann; Ilott Theatre; Kevin Hague; Wellington Town Hall; history; human rights; transcript online
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Fuimaono Karl Pulotu-Endemann delivers a keynote presentation. Karl is introduced by Kevin Hague. The presentation happened during the opening plenary: Intersectionality - the whole of us.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 2010
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Fuimaono Karl Pulotu-Endemann: [singing] Anga reo, rau te ruma. Tena koutou, tena koutou, tena koutou katoa. And from the voices of the Pacific, specifically to all our visitors from overseas, from the fabulous Cook Islands, Kia orana koutou, katoatoa. From the Kingdom of Tonga, and I know I have acknowledged Joleen, the head of the Fakaleiti Association of Tonga, mahu and leiti, Joleen. Bula vinaka to our brothers and sisters from the fabulous Fiji. Audience member: Bula vinaka. Karl: Well, bula vinaka to you. Fakalofa lahi atu from the rock of Polynesia otherwise known as Niue, malo ni from Tokelau. And finally, of course, from Samoa where I come from, I'd really like to pay tribute to my uso fa'afafine from the Samoan Fa'afafine Association, but also fa'afafine from American Samoa, a very special welcome to this country. Now I've got to work this thing out, because I thought I'd be really special and work this one, but this Samoan boy doesn't really know how to do it, so I'll just – there.[laughter] Well, that's the greeting, so I thought I'd start, people, by.... Do you point it up there or do you point it up here or down here?[laughter] Kevin: What are you talking about? Karl:This. How do you point it? Oh. Oh, here you go.[laughter and applause] If it was a wand I can tell you it would have gone much better. I just want to talk about the history and just to show you that this is where we come from. Of course some people would say the largest continent in the world is the AsianPacific, and you can see this is the whole of the Pacific right up to the top to Hawai'i. I just want to start by saying about the pre-colonization, and when I came to put this up you'll notice the photo of the woman on my left is slightly higher than the gentleman on the right, because pre-Christian is the fact that particularly in Samoa, but also my research shows that in Thai and other Pacific countries, women played a very dominant role. But in particular in Samoa, of course, we had some very powerful women. Nafanua was a very powerful warrior that was mistaken for a man, and she was the one that united the four corners of Samoa. But it's said that there was a wind that blew up her corset, and indeed she had breasts, and so therefore she was actually a woman. So, you can talk about your Xena, but we in the Pacific had Nafanua.[laughter] And also, Salamasina, some of us in the audience are direct descendants of her, because she was the first ruler of Samoa. It was not a man, it was a woman. And then of course we had the Christians, and they came, and if you notice now that I sort of lightly elevated the man and the woman, of course, became demeaned. And so you can't see it, but the terms – and I thought they were really unusual terms.... The first thing, of course, they did was to dress us from the top to the bottom. And it's really an inappropriate kind of dressing because in Samoa, for instance, the average temperature there is about 32 degrees. But the title they gave for that woman was mamoe fafine. Mamoe means a lamb or sheep, an animal that would be unknown in the Pacific in those periods.[laughter] So I have all these Samoans going around as mamoe fafine, and it's really that they don't know what they're talking about. But can I just say one other thing? It's the attitudes. It's the attitudes. Those sort of go back. If you recognize this, when the missionaries left from Europe, and all their people were dressed. Sex, of course, was not the in thing. You know, you palakeas have got a lot to....[laughter] You brought not only the Bible, but you brought your attitude about sexuality to us. And not only that, what they did was the negative attitudes, but can you imagine, the first thing they did, of course, was to dress us. And of course the other thing was the negative things about sexuality. I just want to say that pre-Christians we see that us people were running around in the darkness. That's an interesting concept. And then since the missionaries with the Bible came we were all running around in the days of the light, which I thought was rather unique because some of us still prefer to be in the dark.[laughter] I've done that. All right – I've done that; okay, I've done that, done that. And if you look at the sexuality, just some of the views they had, perhaps there, about men and women rank at a higher number of partners in this side. This is the European colonizer's view of what.... And of course, the other thing the European brought was the view of heterosexism and the fact that, you know, it was the only way to go. Fa'afafine, can I just say, for Samoans we existed well before – and I know that also the whakawahine, or the fakaleiti of Tonga, and the mahu of Hawai'i – we existed well before the missionaries came to the Pacific. Ask any whalers or sailors around, because the story is around about the early 1800s one such sailor went with a very comely lass behind the bushes, and found that it was a comely lad. So, it shows that we existed in that era. I also just want to talk about the Pacific history in the New Zealand context. In 1945, post World War, there was an economic boom and the work was required; hence, there was recruitment in Europe – that horrible term " Ten Pound Pommy" – and coupled with that was to have the urbanization of Maori, but also was the recruitment of Pacific people for the five Fs: forestry, farms, freezing works, factories and fisheries. And some very prominent people in this country, their history comes back, like the very first female judge, Pacific female judge in this country, Ida Malosi comes from Invercargill. Her father was a freezing worker. At the same time, most New Zealanders, when they turn on their radio for Radio New Zealand News, one of the very well-known news readers is Niva Retimanu. Her father also belonged to the Ocean Beach Freezing Works. However, after the '70s the boom went down, and then I believe the second boom came on. In 1970 the economic boom was over, and Pacific people, particularly Fijian, Samoan and Tongan, all the overstayers, dawn raids, and that's when I believe the sixth F came up, and basically, to use the French, is " F back where you come from."[laughter] Again, just look at the time strand of colonization on Pacific people, and there's some really key people in the audience: my friend Warren Lindberg, for instance. If you recall, Warren, it was in the '80s that you and I went up to the Pasifika Conference up north, and we talked about the formation of issues like the Pacific Island AIDS Trust. I really wanted just to talk about how people view sexuality, because I think the attitudes that we have inherited, actually in some cases we still have and we need to decolonize our thinking, because indeed the Pacific is colonized by the missionaries. And more latterly, the Pacific was hit by that wave of the moral right in the '80s that New Zealand had with the Homosexual Law Reform. They didn't go back to the west, America, where they came from. They stopped away in the Pacific, and some of the fundamentalism is very much found in the Pacific. But I just wanted to also talk about the various perspectives of sexuality and why it was not acceptable to us. For instance, if you look at the biophysical model, the medical model of course is very prevalent, particularly in the '70s. As a psychiatric nurse of course it was very, very close to me because it was only up to the 1970s – '73 – when homosexuality was of course taken off the DSN4, or the Diagnostic Statistical Manual, as a sickness. But a lot of that moral.... Also, the works of Master's and Johnson really focuses on the physical aspect of sexuality. The other one, of course psychological, are Freudian, and we know all the feminists, rightly so, challenge that moral aspect as particularly sexist and particularly also Eurocentric. The sociological model was the one that we tended to use, but there were still a lot of things that were missing in relation to us, so I came up with this model, and this is the Fonofale Model that Kevin was talking about. This, overall, looks at culture, family and all the determinants that really... and indeed, one of the other posts I put sexuality in it because it's fundamental to us; that Pacific and Maori see sexuality as fundamentally tied to our culture, and also to our families and history. And I just want to run that for you. The first one of course, without doubt, and I used the model, because being Samoan I used the family as our foundation. The foundation is our family. Now, that's nothing new. Everybody in this room has a family whether it's extended or whether it's nuclear or whether it's constituted, everyone has a family. The second post is what I call the physical, and again we need to really address the fact that we do have, in sexuality, physical components to ourselves. The second one is the mental and that's self-explanatory. The third one is spirituality. And there's a fourth one called " other," and these " other" concepts are at the roof and the cultural values and beliefs, but I also believe that being in others' environment, time and context, is very important, because we live in the 2000s and the context of human rights fits in very nicely with that. And that's the Fonofale Model, again, and the Pacific Island AIDS was an adaptation of that particular model. The concept of the south is very fluid, and I thought I'd just quote this from His Highness Tui Atua, and that is that concept that we're not by ourselves, it's a " we" concept rather than " I," and what are the futures? This is what I believe; my own personal view of fa'afafine, fakaleiti and akava'ine, and one of the first things I think is we need to plan and hold onto that land, because we existed in this part of the Pacific well before, while in Europe they talk about inverts, etcetera. And the other one is about networking. It's thrilling to be here, challenging our own culture. And in conclusion I want to do this... I'm going to ask the Samoans to come up here because this is a song called " Look, Say, Hear."[singing, then applause] Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 287
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_elizabeth_kerekere_keynote.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004122
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089416
TITLE: Elizabeth Kerekere - AsiaPacific Outgames
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Elizabeth Kerekere; Kevin Hague
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Elizabeth Kerekere; Ilott Theatre; Kevin Hague; Lee Smith; Ngahuia Te Awekotuku; Wellington Town Hall; activism; growing up; lesbian; research; takatāpui; transcript online
DATE: 16 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Elizabeth Kerekere delivers a keynote presentation. Elizabeth is introduced by Kevin Hague. The presentation happened in the Ilott Theatre during the opening plenary: Intersectionality - the whole of us.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 2010
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Elizabeth Kerekere: Na te mea tuatahi Ko Papatuanuku e takoto mai nei Ko Ranginui e tu nei tena kōrua tena koe e Ruaumoko kia tau te rangimarie mauria mai nga tini aitua kua wehe atu ki te po hei maumahara hei tangihiaFirstly we acknowledge Papatūānuku, our earth mother, and Ranginui, our sky father, who together sustain us on this earth. I acknowledge the youngest child, Ruaumoko, who sits nestled within his mother and expresses his displeasure with the earthquakes we're experiencing. As we remember and grieve for those who have passed away within our whanau, our families and our communities, we especially send our thoughts out to those people who, in those countries, in those places of crisis, Haiti and Japan, who I believe have paid the price with their lives for the continued defilement of our Mother Earth through nuclear reactors, oil refineries, mining and so-called land reclamation. I also want to greet the Iwi, the mana whenua, who opened our hui. They lend mana and authority to this gathering, and for me clear the way for all of us to stand and be here. My greetings to the organizers and the dignitaries, particularly Barry and Gavin, who have made sure I got myself here and got myself organized. I really appreciate it. I particularly want to acknowledge Kevin Haunui, who has represented the interests of takatāpui throughout the planning and organizing for the Outgames and for this conference. Nga mihi aroha ki a koe. Okay, last month, I just have to say, like this week I have met nearly every lesbian I know.[laughter] They are in Wellington. It's crazy! Yeah, Wellington you have turned it on. It is so cool. But last month we held Te Matatini o Te Ra in Gisborne. It's a small coastal town for those at the center of the universe, kia ora. It's my tribal home. I recently moved home there, but up to two years of solid practice throughout the country culminated in the epitome of Māori cultural performance, of kapahaka. And for each group on stage though, it really struck me that there were hundreds more who didn't qualify, who helped organize in the marae, who were feeding people, who were just at home learning all these new waiata, the new songs, composing new things, and just honing their performance. And because of that, throughout the country for those 42 groups on stage competing, overall the standard is lifted throughout our people, and I believe this is what this conference does for our queer communities throughout the AsiaPacific and beyond. And I'm very proud to be part of this. I said to Marilyn, I feel like a baby before the wisdom and experience of my two panel members, and I appreciate the opportunity. Okay, three key things to say about me. Okay, so there is a point, one I raised about Matatini, is that therefore to honour that part of my culture and all of those queer people throughout our region for whatever reason couldn't be here today. I've structured my talk... I decided this year and sat up last night rewriting it, so if there's kind of pauses, don't worry. Talk quietly amongst yourselves.[laughter] That's why I'm really glad to be speaking first. As each person spoke this morning I was like writing all over my notes – Oh, that's really good! I want to mention that. So, I'm glad to get this done right now. But I've structured my speech then on the bracket, that when the Matatini come on there's a set process we follow. So, I'm concluding this first part, the whakaeke, where we make that entry and introductions. Three key things about me. My fourth was going to be that I'm Scorpion, because I thought that was really important, but some people would talk to me for five minutes and they'd guess that. But first and foremost I'm Māori, indigenous to this country, as you introduced:Te Aitanga a Mahaki, Whanau a Kai ōku nei iwi. And for me, my name Kerekere means one of the layers of the night, the intenseness, the blackness of the night before light existed in the world. Elizabeth: I was named after my grandmother who, yes, was named after the Queen.[laughter] I honour my grandmother. And so, I get to live at home now as a full-time artist, writer and storyteller. Number two: I'm a lesbian, feminist femme. And because of that I get to enjoy a special connection with the butches of the world, but particularly my civil union partner, Alofa Aiono, who, in enjoying the lesbian event last night that I got home at a decent hour from, she got home just before I had to leave to come here. She may not make it for my final words. Okay, but on Monday we celebrated 19 years together.[applause] And I just want to acknowledge that as an act of revolution that I highly recommend. And finally, number three: I'm takatāpui. We've adopted this traditional term to mean Māori who identify as lesbian, gay, transgender, trans, queer – let me double check – asexual, queer or questioning, and bisexual. And being takatāpui brings together all the different parts of myself and it gives me a tūrangawaewae, a place on which to stand. So, after the entry, the whakaeke, is usually the mōteatea. The mōteatea is a traditional incantation, usually dealing with tribal history and quite often whakapapa, a genealogy. And because we're a people from oral traditions, these kind of mōteatea chants were used to ensure that knowledge was passed on from generation to generation correctly. So, when we look at whakapapa, and we know that as Māori, we claim our identity through whakapapa: where we come from, who we're descended from, and that leads us to where our marae are, and that's a key part of who we are. So, as takatāpui then we search for our predecessors, our ancestors in that past, because that helps cement us in our identity. And so when we look back at the records of takatāpui the earliest ones we have are European, about the 1770s – sailors and traders who came here – and they gave pretty much consistent reports of same-sex and bi-sex attraction and behavior. Of course, some of them partook; very attractive, our Māori men, apparently. It's just rumoured. It's what I've heard.[laughter] And so in this quote, " Sexuality was enjoyed in many forms. People chose partners of either sex for pleasure, and same-sex love was not condemned or vilified. Continuing one's line however, having children, was nevertheless a priority." So you could do what you liked so long as you had the kids, okay? It's still like that. Yes." High performance, though, and erotic skill were greatly admired, and accomplished individuals, both male and female, feature prominently in the chant poems of their time, their physical attributes and relevant behaviours fondly detailed." That's fabulous – I mean, really.[laughter] As a Scorpion I so respect that. And we have found specific examples within our own oral history narratives. It was through the separate research of takatāpui scholars, Lee Smith and Dr Ngahuia Te Awekotuku that the term takatāpui was found. Some of you will be familiar with the famous love story of Tutanekai and Hinemoa, Te Arawa and Rotorua, but the first-ever Māori film was actually made about their love story. What is not so much covered is about the relationship Tutanekai had with his best friend, Tiki. And one of the history papers that we found, that they found, was that when he wasn't with him he said to his father, " I am dying for love for my friend, for my takatāpui, my beloved, for Tiki." And it is said, I've had confirmation from some kuia in Te Arawa that Hinemoa actually let Tiki come and live with them, and the three of them lived together. And so missionary and court records from the 1880s also show that Māori attach no shame or sin to same-sex or bi-sex behaviour. And so by this time the missionaries had been here for quite some time, and as we learned to write we quickly adapted this new method of storytelling and we recorded our own stories. One particular mint in 1853 for the fallen warrior, Papaka te Ngairoa a youth who was sexual with that woman and with that man. It is interesting that when Apirana Ngata rewrote and published Mōteatea in about 1928 that the sexual was changed, in the Māori, to affectionate. And so it would lead us to believe that there's a lot of history out there that we have to actually go and cast our takatāpui, our queer eye, on the original – all the original documents of anything that's been translated since. That missionary influence, though, strengthened. The colonization of Māori came into full force, and because we were annoyingly effective warriors we enjoyed the dubious pleasure of being both the first indigenous people with whom the mighty British Empire entered into a treaty with, but we were also apparently the last people that they colonized. I think after the Māoris they were over it.[laughter] But the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840 was followed by a succession of legislation designed to eliminate our culture. Completely un... not completely unsuccessful, but we remain. We're here and we stand and we represent. So, we abandoned some things – some things quite rightly, perhaps, like ritual cannibalism, that can go (laughter) – and things like diverse expressions about sexual orientation and gender identity went underground. And so although the English laws active in 1858, that great thing where in one fell swoop we inherited the entire legislation of Britain, homosexuality became illegal in New Zealand, but we find no evidence of any Māori punishment for that kind of behavior. And so for me when I look back on that history and reflect on how our Māori people are with us today, I just wonder if the continued silence of our people around that is collusion with the colonizers and buying into all those Christian beliefs around that, or actually was it a form of protection for us: We won't talk about it. We know you're doing it, but we'll just pretend it's not going on, and then none of us get into trouble. And so that's something I really, really want to research and actually interview the oldest kaumatua I can find just to see what are their memories, because I know my great-grandmother was born in 1901 and she was quite happy to talk about her aunties and cousins who lived with women, had children, but never had male partners. So, we move from the past into the contemporary form of waiata a ringa our action songs, and often these are kind of the messy part of the bracket and tell a particular story or focus on a particular topic. In this part I want to introduce issues around perhaps a framework for action and how we might influence what it is we want for takatāpui, for the communities that we represent in our different areas. And for my work I use a framework of expectations, which was originally designed to look at an organization's responsiveness to the treaty by looking at how effective they were for Māori. And I've adopted this tool to use it for queer groups and for youth groups. And so I understand after a quick word with Marilyn that not everyone shares my excitement about strategic planning and writing policy.[laughter] And so out of 11 – I'll spare you – organizational elements, I think my top 3 favorites then are about:Leadership – How your organization is run right from the beginning and how you lead your group, your people, your organization into the future. Decision making – Who sits at the table? Who says what's going to happen? And human resources – We want the world, and we can do that if we're prepared to work for it, find the people and find what we need to get things done. It's not always about money. But by developing all of these things, the whole point is that for a lot of organizations, whether it's a campaign, starting a new group, or analyzing and trying to change something that's like been stuck forever in a way that's just not helpful for us, is one single thing by itself – appoint a Māori and put them in a job by themselves in a Pakeha organization. It's not going to work. It very rarely has, but it makes the people in charge feel better. So, one little thing usually will not work, so what we look at is that all these things fit together, they interlock together, and so by doing that our expectation is that to be effective for takatāpui.... And there's a saying in the government sectors of New Zealand: if you do things right for Māori they'll be right for everybody else, they'll work for everybody else in our community who is marginalized. But, to be effective for takatāpui the key things are that we are engaged in all matters that concern us, that services for us are designed and delivered to meet our needs, and that resources, systems and key people are made available to achieve this. So, rather than go into those in detail let's leave it right there and we'll move into the next excoiting... excoiting: I just made that up. I'm sorry. The next part of the performance is the poi, and some of you people have seen this – little balls on string, then they get really flash, they glow in the dark and all sorts of things. And you can imagine... imagine this poi on my hand, and the poi is, in our very gendered society, or especially in kapahaka, the poi is a tool to show off the grace and beauty of our women, and so quite often the poi is very light hearted and fun, sometimes a bit naughty but sexy, and so I thought, well, with the grace and beauty that's inherent in all of us who live our lives as women, then I think takatāpui have got a very clear run on this one. So I wanted to look at some of the things we have achieved, and at one end of the spectrum there are those of us for whom cultural identity is everything, it is the mainstay. I was certainly like this before I moved to Wellington 21 years ago, where everything I did was for Māori, and the fact that I love women was kind of irrelevant to my life; it was just a thing, over here. It was quite incidental to my politics until the Homosexual Law Reform started, and I think I was 19 or 20 when that kind of got happening for me to get involved in. However, I still want to acknowledge those that we would call takatāpui who were involved in key development and renaissance of their Māori culture. This includes the contemporary form of kapahaka that all Māori practice today. In the 1930s this form was developed by Tuini Ngawai, who is still hailed as a genius, celebrated every year and at all Māori festivals, but no mention, of course, of her female partner. And development of the Māori Women's Welfare League, there's all sorts of Māori organizations, leadership in the feminists, Māori feminists. And I have to say, too, I'm quite prejudiced. I just know more about the lesbian side of things, but even the establishment of Te Taurawhiri, Te Reo Māori , the Māori Language Commission, the establishment of Māori television and the takatāpui show – all of these things that we've been part of. And on the other end of that we've had those takatāpui who have been strong enough to go out and represent the issues related to our sexual orientation and gender identity. And two particular ones I want to acknowledge are Professor Alison Laurie, who's here, who was a leader in lesbian feminism in the 1970s, has spearheaded women's studies, gender studies, around the southern hemisphere, and today is Chair of LAGANZ amongst the many other things that she does. But also of course, Georgina Beyer, who was a revolutionary, became the first Māori MP as well as prior to that being the first trans MP and the first trans Mayor in the world. And of course there are many more – many, many more who have achieved great things. And I think in honouring our ancestors who have gone before it is our responsibility to record that to make sure that that's available for people who are coming after us. This is the part where I've written all over it. Bear with me. Five minutes – okay. We can do this, people. Right! But since the term takatāpui came into usage, it was found about the late '70s, early '80s, and it has increasingly gained traction, not just as a term to refer to Māori who may be identifying as queer in whatever way, but as an actual identity, which seeks to bring all those parts of ourselves together and focus on issues specific to us so that we don't always have to choose in any given circumstance: Are we Māori today or are we queer today? And you'll find that in most services that are offered in this country in terms of health, education, we often have to choose, just in life. When we go home we're being like the good Māori girl, and when we're in the city we can go to lesbian things and hang out with the cooler crowd.[laughter] I keep getting in trouble. And I specifically wanted to mention the one and only book that exists about takatāpui: " Sexuality and the Stories of Indigenous People." The fabulous Huia Publishers I do want to acknowledge for wanting to publish the book, but didn't want the word takatāpui on it. So that comes to the next... this is like the second to last thing: the haka, traditionally done by our men. I'm fortunate to come from a tribe where the women traditionally have composed and performed haka, but it is a challenging, physically demanding performance. And here we have so much to be proud of in Aotearoa. We are privileged compared to many other countries – people who are represented here are – but as Grant said earlier we have to resist complacency. It's really important that those of us who are older, who are employed, who have got into that comfort of owning our own homes, or all sorts of things, where we don't get hassled when we go to work, that we use that privilege to support those who are not in that position, particularly our young people who are still putting up with things that we haven't had to put up with for a long, long time. And so even though many of us are accepted by our home people, we know that from the research, from our experience in the community, that not all Māori are accepted by their family. We still know of young people being kicked out of their home when they come out; having trouble – where do you fit on the marae if you're trans? What role you play, and how that fits with the life that you lead and who you are inside. That takatāpui feel pressured between being Māori and being queer, to marry and have children; that takatāpui youth are significantly more likely to experience bullying, unwanted sexual attention and sexual and mental health problems that both their heterosexual and queer counterparts do not, or they experience it more so, more likely. Yeah. This culminates in a negative body image and things about increased risk-taking and suicide and self-harm that are prevalent in our communities. But sadly our Māori elders haven't been really great about being supportive of us, and I won't go into the negative things that some of our Māori Party Members have not voted and supported us on, or ridiculous marches to Parliament for ridiculous heads of ridiculous churches.[laughter and applause] I've got two minutes. So finally, at the end of each performance, is the whakawatea. It's the conclusion; it's to clear the way and come off the stage. And for those of us from minority cultures, we're well aware that the dominant culture is not going to just hand things over. We can decide to take things by force. Being that fabulous, loving people we are, we go: hmm, let's take a bit more time and we'll use our influence and use all of the skill, knowledge and resources we have on hand to influence things in a way so that we are not actually repeating the discrimination that is often used against us. What does the future hold? Okay, I've got three: the experience of takatāpui; kaumatua, our Māori leaders; that it will be good to research how the impact of colonization on Māori sexuality has manifested itself in Māori culture; by developing effective strategies to reduce homophobia and trans phobia in contemporary Māori life, that we can create a safer environment for takatāpui, particularly our young people; and by connecting the past to the present we honor the memories of those takatāpui ancestors in whose footsteps we follow. And amongst ourselves we strive to create meaningful intersections of our culture, gender and sexuality, because can we create spaces of acceptance, safety and love which do not require silence and sacrifice? I believe so. We have done it here. We will keep doing it. No reira tēna koutou tēna koutou kia ora huihui mai tātou katoaHave I got time to do a quick song? Okay. Okay, like auntie June said, it is traditional that we do a waiata. I thought I would get my tiwhanawhana people to join me in a little waiata. You may hear it at different times in this conference. Ka Waiata Ki a PapaHine i whakaae Whakameatia maiTe whare tangata Hine PurotuHine Ngakau Hine rangimarieKo te whaea Ko te WhaeaO te ao (o te ao)[applause] Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 284
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/apog_annette_xiberras_keynote.html
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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089419
TITLE: Annette Xiberras - AsiaPacific Outgames
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Annette Xiberras; David Huebner
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 2010s; Annette Xiberras; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011); Australia; David Huebner; Ilott Theatre; Wellington Town Hall; growing up; lesbian; parenting; transcript online
DATE: 17 March 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Ilott Theatre, Wellington Town Hall, 111 Wakefield Street, Wellington
CONTEXT: In this podcast Annette Xiberras delivers a keynote presentation. Annette is introduced by David Huebner, the United States Ambassador to New Zealand. The presentation happened during the second plenary session: Our rights across the Asia Pacific region - a snapshot.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Annette Xiberras: Normally in Australia when we talk on someone's country you always take the time to recognize it, and this is the Māori's country and I'd like to take the time to thank them for letting me speak on their country. I'm not sure what the right words are to say, but I hope that covered it if anybody's here that's Māori. I'm aboriginal and I'm a gay, black widow. I'm probably one of the first women to lose their partners. My name is Annette Xiberras and I'm a Wurundjeri elder. I ran, or I own, the first black-aboriginal company, gay company, but today there's a few other guys, a few straight guys, who run other aboriginal companies. My people normally believe in our creator, called Bunjil, who's an eagle who flew out over a vast plain of nothing and created the world. From that world nations, from those nations countries, and from those countries the people. That's why a lot of aboriginal people say, " My land, my country, my mother." It's an affiliation we have with the land that no one can take away. Also, evolution, and so it doesn't really matter what religion you look at, whether it's evolution or that, we all believe in the one thing: we come from the land. And I was doing this talk once in a Roman Catholic church and this fellow got up to me and he said, " Look, you know, I've got no problem with your dream time. You know, I believe that we come from the earth, too." But he said, " You know what? I believe Adam and Eve were white." I said, " Oh, shit." I said, " You know, well that explains everything, because if they'd have been black they would have said, 'Stuff the apple,' and ate the snake."[laughter and applause]" And we wouldn't have got kicked out of Eden," which is true. Anyway, our Bunjil, too, believes that land gives life to everything and it's our mother and we should respect it. And my grandmother, granny Jemima, who was full-blooded, just before they put everybody onto the reserves was talking and walking with my grandmother one day. And she turned around to nana and nana wanted to pick this flower. She said to nana, " Don't pick this flower." And nana said why? And she said, " Because if you pick that flower no one else can see the beauty of that, and it's not there just for one person, it's there for everybody." And that's a bit about our culture. We believe in caring and sharing and respecting each other's values. I was actually born gay from a very young age. I was sent – being aboriginal – I was sent to a Roman Catholic school and when we were little we used to play kiss chasing. For some reason I never wanted to kiss the boys, so I used to run after and kiss the girls, and behold, the bloody nuns used to always flog me. They used to have this Bible or this stick thing, a duster, and they were quite often, once a week, either hitting me over the head with it or smacking me for not fitting into the protocol of white society. And being black and gay back then I really blew their brains in the '70s. Back in the '70s, and the '60s when I was born, I've been asked to talk about how it was then and how it is now, and I remember that back then if you loved a woman or you loved a man they thought there was something wrong with you they'd want to lock you up, they'd want to bash you, and we've all heard about stolen children, but as gay people back in those days, we don't talk about it, but if you were gay they thought that the children were in moral danger and they would actually take your children from you, which was a pretty scary thing. And I know we've come a long way today, but we really haven't come all that far when you look at things. Again, back in the '70s it was impossible, if you were gay, to get anywhere. Today we've got some of the best jobs in the world. I started off in the '70s as an aboriginal archaeological site officer. Being black and gay was really scary because there was no women in the field. Women weren't accepted. Back then you had to be a man to do cultural heritage. So, I fought the odds and I went in and I took the job and for the next two years my whole life was hell. Not only did I have the other aboriginal site officer men against me, I also had just the normal people within the work working really hard against me. You have to excuse me. I apologize for the way I'm dressed, too. I forgot to tell you that somehow all my clothes, toothpaste, brush, underarm deodorant – so thank God you're back there – has been lost, so I apologize for the way I look, but I really took this serious. Audience member: It wasn't us.[laughter] I wanted to look as flash as the ambassador, but I've ended up looking like a sweathog, which tells my true past. Audience member: You look fine! Annette: Thank you. So really, as a site officer they put me through hell, the boys. You know, they said, " Oh, you have to be able to knock off a slab and be able to smoke some of that green stuff to be part of the crew." And I didn't smoke or drink so the first three stubbies I did, the first thing I did was have to run and hide because I vomited everywhere, but it was the only way I could get into the circle. And it was really sad that you had to subject yourself to stuff like that to be accepted as one of the boys. From there, from fighting really hard, I fought for the rights as a gay woman to do aboriginal reburials. I'm the only woman, nationally, in Victoria who does reburials and who does my job. There's still no one else. And I'm also the longest-serving person in aboriginal cultural heritage, and like I said, when I first went in there it was really, really tough. I was one of the forefronts there. After fighting for our rights within aboriginal affairs and getting to actually be Co-Chair of Victoria, which is a really big responsibility, I am, again, one of the first black, gay women to get into these positions. And it's really hard to get into these positions because not only have you got people shaking your hand and being really nice to your face, 95% of the people are putting a knife in your back and are really jealous and want to take your position. So, you've always got to keep one step ahead and two steps in front. After setting that up, and it took me something like 17 years to get there, I met a beautiful lady called Cathy Adams who six years later I married and had two beautiful children to. And she wanted children, and I thought oh geez, how are we going to do that?[laughter] So, I went out in the community. I panicked because I'm from the '70s and she was from the '80s. She was 10 years younger than me. So, I went out and found a child that really no one wanted and were going to put up for adoption and I brought it home and said, " Babe, I got one!"[laughter] She looked at me; she said, " No honey, I want to have a baby." And immediately my heart broke because I thought she'd want to sleep with a man or something like that. She said, " No, I'm going to do IVF." I said, " All right; I'm there." And we went in there, and back then, six years ago in 2006 – oh, we actually started in about 2000 – it was illegal for black women to have children, but nothing like that ever stops me. So what I did was I had a few friends from being up within the community, and I got people to turn a blind eye, and Cathy and I, from 2002 to about 2006, went through the IVF Programme. And other gay women had to go to New South Wales, but I refused to do that and I fought really long and hard, and we were a bit of rebels there and we broke the law, but we had our first child, Julia, and I was so proud of Julia. She was a beautiful girl. But as I was telling you, working as an aboriginal site officer wasn't the best, and a lot of times I was put on restricted duty, so we had Julia, we're proud, and I'm getting in and out of trouble, as usual, for fighting for gay rights. And Cathy says, " I want another baby." I said, " All right." And we had Joey on ice, so we went in and we took Joey off.[laughter] Joey was on ice for two years because we didn't want to have two at once because I was really scared. I thought: How are we going to do this? We'll go one at a time. This looks easy. Not easy, guys, but worth it. So we went and we had Joey. And she was pregnant with Joey and she's home with Julia, and I come home from work. She goes, " What's wrong, honey?" And I said, " Ah, they've stood me down again, babe." She goes, " They stood you down?" I said, " Yeah, but I've still got my pay packet." And she looked at me, and I seen the fear in her eyes, and she got really, really scared because here we are, we've got a child here, we're renting a house, she's got another baby on the way, and the government was continually treating me like you wouldn't believe. At one particular stage I was managing an aboriginal organization in Dandenong, and for the first time ever I got all the tribes around the table. Not talking to each other very nicely, trying to jump the table and punch the shit out of each other, but talking. So I thought this was a great step or going well. And a lot of time in my life, through being gay and the sort of white crew you had in there, and the black crew, because there was also a black crew in there that was against gay people, they made my life difficult – very difficult. And when I was managing Koorie Nations they sent this white, Neanderthal man over there to try and put me in my place, because not only did I think I was a woman who didn't know my place, they thought I was a woman that was seriously in need of medical help, even in the '90s and 2000s. And they sent this gentleman over not only to show me my place but to pull me in line, which was virtually impossible. And again, a lot of time I'd get in trouble from the government, and the only reason I was in trouble was because supposedly someone made a phone call, who wouldn't leave their name, who wouldn't leave their number and wouldn't leave a contact. So, the government would put me on restricted duties for six months, and after I'd proved my innocence would take me off. But this time when they sent the white overseer over was the worst time in my life. He sacked people because he misunderstood founding rights, then had to reinstate them. And at the end, because he couldn't break me and found nothing wrong with me, he actually tried to physically knock me out in the office. And he was a big fella, and I ducked and got out of the way. And I said stuff this and I went on stress leave for a year because I couldn't go back to the office. And because it was so successful, because the organization was so good, they shut it down. And that's when I went home and poor Cathy was sitting there, and that's when I thought, look, you know, I want to work in the government and I want to make a better place for my people. And because I do all the reburials and that, I've got so much responsibility I can't walk from it. I'm in the Melbourne tribe. You know, a lot of our people have got drug and alcohol problems. What do I do? So, lo and behold, I started up my first consultancy – first black, aboriginal consultancy. I'd seen what the white people were doing, and if they can make that sort of money why can't us black fellows, too? So I started up my company and I thought it was going really, really well, and guess what happened? That white boy's club and black boy's club within Aboriginal Affairs Victoria came after me again. And being gay it was really bad because there were a lot of people in there who wouldn't stick up for me and thought I was wrong, and if I'd have been black and straight I wouldn't have had to be subjected to the things I was subjected to. So after this gentleman tried to hit me I went out on stress leave, I started up my company, and I also thought: I'll take this to the union because the union in Victoria is pretty good and it's pretty gay friendly. We got him on 23 charges. He pleaded guilty to 13. But did they sack him? No. What they did was they transferred him to the Museum of Victoria and gave him a promotion for at least trying to pull this stupid, black, gay woman into line. Over there, again he harassed gay people and stood over them. Since then he's been moved sideways again. So, things aren't as good as you think. There was another time when I took the government on again, and because I was a black, gay woman and I was taking on a straight, black man who was running the department at the time, the Director, I spoke to people within Equal Opportunity who said I had an unbeatable case, so I took it up. The gentleman who was representing my case is now the actual Director of Aboriginal Affairs Victoria, which seems quite strange, but he forgot to lodge my complaint, so therefore it wasn't lodged in time. So, Aboriginal Affairs got away of 17 years of putting me through hell, making me sit in the car, watch everybody else go around. I couldn't go out and look after my sites. And like I said, the Equal Opportunity Officer who handled my case is now the Director of Aboriginal Affairs Victoria. And I'd like to point out here it wasn't just black, gay women, it was black women that they were against. They thought women really should be at home. And I want to say again: my culture isn't like that. These black men have been affected by white culture in our society, which has made things go really, really bad. Now I'd like to.... So, I'm just running through this and I heard someone talk and they said talk a bit about this, a bit about this, so I can give you a bit of an overview of what's happening. I'd like to talk a bit now about OutBlack. OutBlack is an organization set up in Victoria, and originally it was set up by the gay men, and I didn't realize this. And when they first set it up back in about '96 they had a meeting and a Christmas party, and they had on it " For sistergirls." And because in my life's fighting so hard for my people's rights and gay rights, I always end up in a heterosexual circle, heterosexual conferences, so I'm not really.... Cathy was really good at this sort of stuff, and I forgot to say Cathy passed away 12 months ago. She died in my arms. No one knows why. But we've still got a little four-year-old and a six-year-old, and you'll hear them out there occasionally on their DSes. They're great kids. I love them. And when I was flying over here, I just want to point out really quick they wouldn't let me fly as their mother. They made me fly as their father. And I told them: In aboriginal language we call boys things a pee-pee and bubbles, and I said I've got none of that. I'm a woman and I'm a mother, but there was no provision even though I'm on the kid's birth certificate. In Victoria we've got a lady called Felicity – she's a legend. She's a gay woman and she's fought so hard for us to get rights to be recognized as partners, yet when we fill in government papers the only way we can fit into the papers is within the men's role. Even on the birth certificate I'm as a parent. Because I'm a parent, and not the second mother, they would not put me on the passports as a mother. And I was arguing. I argued for about two months and this conference was getting really close, so I gave up and came over as a father. Normally I wouldn't give up; I'd fight to the end, but I really wanted to come to this conference, and I don't know why. And probably it was just Cathy being gay and where I work and what I do, not having much to do with gay people, this was really important because I want my children to know they're a rainbow family, they're gay. So, even though we've made a lot of steps in Victoria there are still a lot of bureaucratic forms that don't recognize what we're fighting for and what they've said they've now achieved. So I'd like to just say thanks to Felicity and the rainbow families in Victoria that have done a lot of work and a lot of things for us. Anyway, back to OutBlack. I went along to their first meeting, and I said, " Oh, sistergirls, Christmas party," so again, me not knowing much about... being gay, but not knowing much about the trendy bits, I rolled and rocked along because there was a black tune, and the boy said to me, " Hey, what are you doing here?" I said, " The sistergirl party." He said, " Not that sistergirl! Boy sistergirl." I said, " Oh gosh, what am I going to do?" So they threw me in the land room and put the telly on. I said okay, this is all right. They said, " As soon as we've finished our meeting you can come out." I said, " Oh, so I've got to sit here for two hours while you boys meet, then I can come out. But I'm gay too." And they said, " No, no, no – sistergirls." I said all right, but they brought me a few beers while having their meeting and they looked after me like that, and I watched Home and Away and Neighbours, and finally they finished their meeting and they let me out there for a chin wag with them, and I just couldn't work out why I couldn't have been there in the first place. Ronnie Johnson set up OutBlack. He died a couple of years ago, but he set OutBlack up, and a gentleman called Bryan Andy took it over after he passed away. And Bryan's like my nephew. He's a beautiful boy. He's another black man and so was Ronnie, and he opened the door for women to come into OutBlack, so today women converse with OutBlack. But for some reason the black women in Victoria don't seem to party as hard as the boys, so we don't come together and meet as much as what the boys do, but we're pretty staunch and we stick together. But there's also a lot of black women from my age group – now, remember back in the '70s when it was: When you're gay you're bashed, you're raped; you know, they took your children often. A lot of us have still got this in our mind, and I do see a lot of gay women in the black community but they won't come out of the closets. Get a few drinks into them and you're right, but until you get those drinks into them they're really, really scared to come out, and I think the reason why a lot of older women our age are scared to come out is because we lived through that process. And that's what I loved about Cathy. Like, she didn't grow up in the '70s, she grew up in the '80s and '90s where you didn't get bashed, you didn't get raped, and she had this thing about being gay that I loved, and she never, ever had fear, you know? The fear that I had when we first had the children: I had the fear of being black and stolen children, but also the fear of being gay and stolen children, the thought that the government thought that those children might be in moral danger, but Cathy never, ever had those fears. And I loved the look in her eyes and I loved the way that.... But, I just wanted to feel that, too, but from living through the '70s I've always got that in the back of my head: What about if we slip back and we go back there? What's going to happen to my children? What's going to happen to me? What's going to happen to you? But hopefully we've got really good people out there and we won't slip back. David: Any last words? We're worried about time. Annette: Okay then, not a problem. Sorry about that guys. Yeah, that's okay.[audience sounds of disappointment, then applause] Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 255
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_ursula_bethell.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004069
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089363
TITLE: Ursula Bethell
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1870s; Alison Laurie; Christchurch; Gay Line Wellington Trust; Queer History 101; Rule Foundation; Ursula Bethell; arts; lesbian; transcript online; writing
DATE: 12 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison talks about the New Zealand poet Ursula Bethell.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Hi, I'm Dr Alison Laurie. I was the Gender and Women's Studies Programme Director at Victoria University of Wellington, here in New Zealand, for many years. I'm a writer, oral historian and lesbian and gay activist. Today I'm going to be looking at the poet Mary Ursula Bethell who lived between 1874 and 1945, and I'm going to be looking at her relationship with Effie Pollen - Henrietta Dorothea 'Effie' Pollen - who was five years younger, she lived between 1879 and 1934, and at Ursula's reactions after the death of Effie, which were very sad and tragic, and also with her later relationship with some other women. The relationship between Ursula Bethell and the woman she called her consort, Effie, lasted for over 30 years. They lived as expatriates for many years and didn't return to live in New Zealand until they were in their 40s and when they were able to establish an independent and private domestic life. Bethell's wealth created an idyllic context for the relationship, and their domestic and creative life was protected by her class position in the affluent Christchurch suburb of Cashmere. Bethell wrote most of her poetry during the period of her relationship with Pollen, describing their home, garden and life together, and she was devastated by Pollen's death. Their relationship has been presented by some biographers as platonic and maternal, and it's interesting about this because Bethell herself sometimes used the term maternal to explain her feelings. However, from the early 20th century there was an influential homosexual maternal discourse explaining lesbianism, and the well educated and travelled Bethell must have been familiar with this material. Bethell's expression " maternal constituent" then may function similarly to expressions like spinster, old maid, bluestocking and lady-husband and other ways that some earlier women may have referred to their really important romantic, passionate and sexual relationships with other women. Ursula Bethell was the first child of Isabel and Richard Bethell. She was born in Surrey, England, in 1874. The family returned to New Zealand the following year and they lived at Nelson and then at Rangiora where their father, Richard, died in 1882, and the family were left moderately wealthy. She attended Christchurch Girls' High School and was then educated overseas at Miss Soulsby's School in Oxford, England, and then at a Swiss school in Lake Geneva. She returned to New Zealand at the age of 18 in 1892 and did social work in the Christchurch Anglican Diocese until her second trip to England in 1895 to study painting in Geneva and music in Dresden. This is interesting because Dresden has a lot of associations with women going there to study; it also figures as a place with, later, a strong branch of the Institute for Sexual Science set up by Magnus Hirschfeld, and it's the city where the first transgender operation was performed in the early part of the 20th century. So, it's interesting that she was there. Clearly there were a number of communities there which could bear greater investigation. Anyway, she moves back to London where she joins the Grey Ladies, an Anglican women's community, and that's where she meets Effie Pollen in 1905 when she's 31 and Pollen is 26. When Pollen returned to New Zealand Bethell followed and from 1910 she lived with her mother in Saint Albans, Christchurch, continuing work in the parish. She goes back to London for wartime work between 1914 to 1918, and the two women settle back in Christchurch from 1919 where she purchases Rise Cottage at Westenra Terrace on the Cashmere Hills. They live at Rise Cottage until Pollen's death in 1934 when Bethell moves back to Webb Street in Christchurch, which is one of the family properties. She dies in 1945. She's buried in the Bethell family grave at Rangiora. Effie Pollen is buried at Karori Cemetery with the Pollen family. Effie was the daughter of Dr Henry Pollen from Ireland, and Kathleen Burke from Napier. She had one younger sister. The family had lived in Gisborne where Effie was born until they moved to Wellington where Dr Pollen established his medical practice and his residence at Boulcott Street in a house which has been moved now to the corner of Boulcott Street and Willis Street, and which is today a restaurant and has had a number of existences - it's quite an attractive house. Effie's mother died in 1894, and Dr. Pollen died during the influenza epidemic in 1918. They were buried in the family plot at Karori, and that was where Effie was then subsequently buried after her death from a brain hemorrhage, aged only 55 in 1934. And despite their 30 year relationship there seem to have been family expectations that each would be buried in their respective family plots. Effie and Ursula had met in 1905 when Effie had become involved with Ursula and had begun to live with the Bethell family. In their subsequent life living together at their home in Rise Cottage, Bethell calls Pollen her little raven. In a poem called " Grace" she writes:I have a little RavenWho brings me my dinner,Her tresses are raven,Her tresses are raven,She brings me my dinner -But not by a brook. She feeds me, she scolds me,She scolds me, she feeds me,I'm a hungry old sinner,She brings me my dinner,She cooks it in the kitchenBeside a cookery book. Little raven was a famously lively racing pony of the 1890s, and perhaps Bethell's pet name for Pollen was based on this characteristic. The activities expressed in the poem suggest energy and liveliness; the hungry old sinner a reference to a stereotypical New Zealand masculinity, scolded by the consort. In the poem " Discipline" Bethell writes:I said: I will go into the garden and consider roses;I will observe the deployment of their petals,And compare one variety with another. But I was made to sit down and scrape potatoes. The morning's rosebuds passed by unattended,While I sat bound to monotonous kitchen industry. Howbeit the heart of my consort was exhilarated,And for virtuous renunciation I received praise. The taste of the potatoes was satisfactoryWith a sprig of fresh mint, dairy butter, and very young green peas. Effie Pollen seems to have taken a practical and cheerful approach to life, and certainly seems to have known how to manage Ursula, who seems to have been rather more temperamental. Bethell wrote, " My darling announced one day that as for her she couldn't see anything in life which consists of doing what you didn't want to do and doing without what you require, and she just didn't agree with creation." This seems to me to be a comment on lesbianism and relationships between women. Pollen may have been influenced by romantic evangelicalism and other forms of radical Christian thinking that did not regard any loving relationship as sinful. Possibly Bethell had held similar views, with their religious ideas in harmony with their relationship. This comment on " what you require" suggests they might have held modern ideas on health and sexuality and thought that they were perfectly entitled to have such a relationship. However, though they might have been positive about their relationship in private, they were quite careful in public. While guarding their privacy, they did invite friends to visit, including homosexual men. The bisexual artist, Toss Woollaston was a friend, and also the wealthy homosexual poet, Charles Brasch was a friend, and Walter D'Arcy Cresswell visited, and various other people, so they were not isolated despite the private nature of their relationship. And certainly some of Ursula Bethell's letters to Rodney Kennedy imply more communication and discussion of same-sex relationships. These letters are in the Hocken Library in Dunedin. After Effie died Pollen is grief stricken. It happened very suddenly. It was a few days after Bethell's 60th birthday. Pollen complained of severe headaches, she went to bed and she died three weeks later. The distraught Bethell wrote openly of her grief for Pollen in letters and in the six memorial poems composed on the anniversaries of Pollen's death. These poems were not intended for publication, though she sent copies to friends, and they were not published for five years after her own death. The first memorial poem was written in October, 1935 when she wrote:The green has come back, the spring green, the new green,Darling, the young green upon the field willows,And the gorse on the wild hills was never so yellow,Together, together, past years we have looked on the scene. You were laughter, my liking, and frolic, my lost one,I must dissemble and smile still for your sake,Now that I know how spring time is heart-break,Now you have left me to look upon all that is lovely, alone. As the second anniversary of Pollen's death approached, Bethell wrote to Rodney Kennedy that, " The loneliness closed round me again to which I am growing accustomed and only sometimes dare to think of the years when everything was shared. ... I am not proud, Rodney, of all this sadness of looking back; I think it is limiting God, because it is as good as saying that His resources have run out, that He can't do as much again, that something uniquely beautiful has perished - I don't really hold with that - but it does seem as if this darkness were something I have to endure." She thought, too, that though it was " very sad settling my things alone," she could not go on in a muddle, and that her lost friend would " rather have me found in pleasing surroundings, so I shall have to go on with it to please her." In the second memorial poem, " November 1936", Bethell wrote that she had tried to brighten up the Webb Street house:Today I trimmed my lonely dwelling place with flowers;Memories ask garlands;I see you, darling,Dispose deft-handed, your bright bunches in that happy home of ours. Because the years to months diminish, days to hours,And love is strongerThan death's angerI have adorned today, alone, my brief abiding place with flowers. At the third anniversary she wrote to Rodney Kennedy, " The utter devotion and love of an exquisite person was squandered daily, hourly, on me," adding that, " For these three years I have been waiting to know what to do with this desolation. The first task was to go on living without tenderness, without joy, without fun, without sharing, needed by no one and going deep into the bitter knowledge of how much more I might have given." She warned Kennedy that, " If one offers everything to God, then know what you are doing, because if God takes it you are left in great darkness and dread." Deciding to remain at home for this anniversary she wrote to him, " Perhaps I ought to stay put now, though my impulse is to get away for Race Week, that week that she lay dying." Her third memorial poem, written in November, 1937, she's writing about the Webb Street garden where she's living, she mourns, " Left with all this, I lack what made it mine." For the fourth anniversary of Pollen's death she visited the Pollen family grave at Karori Cemetery where she had previously been with Effie, who was now also, of course, buried there. In November, 1938, she wrote, " Dearest, these four years I have been consenting to live onwards alone," and she explained in a letter to Kennedy that though they did not visit the Pollen family grave often, they always meant to go back. Now, the thought of going there "... without the companion renews the desolation. I have no superstitious feelings about cemeteries, but it will be something to do on that 8th of November, when she was caught away, to go out and put a bunch of flowers beside her name." The fifth memorial poem, " November 1939", written at Akaroa, a seaside town an hour from Christchurch on Banks' Peninsula, and this one explains:Once again, my darling, it is come, the time you died,And on this quiet harbour once again I lookReturn I now to join a casual throng. No moreRounding, alone, a coign of the sea-scalloped trackShall I, surprised, perceive my dear, with eager paceComing to meet me, and with eager look of love,And go companioned; nor may I ask to knowSuch cherished company, such tender love again. She wrote to Kennedy that there were " many reminders in Akaroa, where we used to come together, but it is so quiet and beautiful, it is healing." In the sixth and final poem, " Spring 1940", written in Christchurch, she again mourned the coming of spring, and the anniversary of Pollen's death, asking God to:Match Spring with vision, Spirit of Beauty, bringWith your persuasive love to the inward eye awakening,Lest looking on this life to count what time has takenI cannot bear the pain. And she wrote to Holcroft, soon after Pollen's death, " It has been a complete shattering of my life; from her I have had love, tenderness and understanding for 30 years, a close and happy companionship... in this house for 10 years. I shall not want another home on this planet." And later she does develop friendships with other women. She develops a strong friendship with a woman, Kathleen Taylor. She meets her in 1941 when she's 66 and Taylor is in her early 20s, and this relationship may have been platonic, though her letters to Kathleen Taylor are passionate and loving, and significantly, she does not write any further despairing memorial poems about Effie Pollen after she meets Kathleen Taylor. She may have thought that God had managed to " do as much again" when Taylor came to live with her at Webb Street. However, she encourages Kathleen Taylor to marry, and she does. She marries Davies, he is a curate, and it seems that she totally supports this. She wrote to Taylor, " It was curiously natural to have you about, Katya. I felt it almost from the first," and later that, " I ventured to put it in my prayer - seeing that life was going on - that, if it were possible, three things might come to me again - love and poetry and a home." And then she adds, " How strangely and unexpectedly your dear little love came," comparing it to, " my Effie coming 37 years ago, because before I knew her I felt sorry about her feeling lonely. Similarly, I didn't take you in at all the first evening. I asked you to come again because Paul said you were lonely in your lodging and I asked him whether you would care to come. The second time I remember seeing that you were a very right-minded young woman, and then I was charmed by you being hungry - like a boy." Bethell's attraction to Taylor's boyish and youthful hunger - maybe for food, and maybe referring to other physical needs - suggests a maternal attraction, and she does call her relationships maternal. And given the 40 year age difference, this relationship may not have been particularly, if at all, sexual, and because of her enduring love for Pollen, Bethell may well have regarded all subsequent physical relationships as faithless to her memory. A letter written to Taylor when she was on her honeymoon with Davies says, " Not that it's everything, this two-sided sexuality. I think my prose shows that pretty clearly, don't you? There was peace and happiness, for all the blemishes, at Rise Cottage, and fun - such fun! - and you don't have fun without peace - lots of anxiety too - and therein perhaps the maternal constituent was having its day." So, all of these letters and poems can be interpreted as strongly being influenced by Bethell's love, her passionate attachments, firstly to Effie Pollen and later Kathleen Taylor; clearly it influences her poetry; clearly it's highly significant in her life. And I think to ignore these relationships or try to dismiss them as simple ordinary friendships which were celibate is to ignore the depth of the love, the depth of the emotion, and the way in which she based her life on the importance of these friendships with other women. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 253
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_lesbian_organising.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004066
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089360
TITLE: Lesbian organising
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1970s; Alison Laurie; Gay Line Wellington Trust; Manawatu Lesbian and Gay Rights Association (MALGRA); Queer History 101; Rule Foundation; activism; lesbian; organisation; social; transcript online
DATE: 12 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison talks about early lesbian organising in New Zealand.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Hi, I'm Dr Alison Laurie. I was the Gender and Women's Studies Programme Director at Victoria University of Wellington, here in New Zealand, for many years. I'm a writer, an oral historian and a lesbian and gay activist. Today I'm going to be looking at lesbian organizing in New Zealand as distinct from gay organizing, and this is a particularly interesting topic because the situation of women in New Zealand obviously is different from the situation of men, and especially as we go back into the earlier years looking through at the development of sex roles in the 19th century and so on, then how lesbians have organized is a topic of particular interest. When we go back to looking at the gender relations between men and women pre contact, and we look at the writings of somebody like Makereti whose writing has been brought to us by Ngahuia Te Awekotuku who looked at that work quite early on, Makereti tells us that gender relations between men and women in Maori societies were fairly equal. Obviously these are class-stratified societies, but women could own property; women had, on every level, more or less the same rights as men did. But then with the introduction of European law women become chattels. As according to the British law of the time, on marriage a women and a man become one, and that one is the person of the husband, and any earnings she has become his, any property she has becomes his and so on, and that's the case until about 1885 when you get the Married Women's Property Act and reform of that. However, some of those attitudes continue, and in fact coming right through into the 1970s we find that it was difficult for women to get access to credit without the signature of their husband or of a man, it was difficult for women to open an account even at a department store without a man being a signatory to that, so there were still these kinds of attitudes lingering on. And in fact the campaign about rape in marriage - rape in marriage is first made a crime in 1985 - so that still harks back to the idea that a woman is, in fact, the property of the man. So, the situation wasn't equal. Having said that, New Zealand is the first country where women vote. We successfully get that through in 1893. We're the first entire country to have women voting and in Parliament. We're the first country where women could take degrees at a university - that's from 1877 at Auckland University College: Kate Edger. So, all of these things put us ahead in terms of gender relations; so it isn't that bad, but it isn't that good either, and there are a number of quite anomalous things that need to be considered. So the situation then for lesbians starts to become interesting. Apart from our early communities where women are particularly in the post-war period there are places to meet, private parties, there are some hotel bars where women can meet, there are coffee bars where women can meet, so there are networks, and there are other kinds of clubs or organizations - church groups, sporting groups - where women can meet together. But we first start getting a period of organization with the arrival here of women's liberation, which starts from the late 1960s. And this is a worldwide explosion of political consciousness, what is now regarded as second-wave feminism, though Dale Spender points out that in fact there's always been a women's movement throughout the 20th century; that when we think of waves, like first-wave feminism and second-wave feminism, we shouldn't assume that there's nothing in between, but just that it isn't peaking at quite those same levels of energy. Certainly between first-wave feminism, which roughly begins to dwindle in the beginnings of the 1930s, probably, but certainly between then and the end of the 1960s, early 1970s, we have a lot of very important things like the campaign for equal pay, the marriage guidance movement, family planning and things of this sort which are all seeking to improve the position of women. The difference with women's liberation is that it is the baby-boom generation coming of age in that period after World War II, fueled with a great deal of energy, who start to put all of this in motion. And there's a lot of writing; communication becomes better, there are a lot of books that start to come out. And within a short space of time we have women's liberation branches throughout New Zealand, largely, at first, being centered on universities, and very soon community groups and so on throughout the country, as well, and high levels of energy. It's from that movement that we begin to see the emergence of lesbian groups and eventually the emergence of lesbian feminism. Lesbian feminist groups move from lesbians who had been calling themselves gay women working in gay liberation together with men, lesbians from the earlier networks, sporting networks and things of that kind, and then lesbians in the women's liberation movement who begin to feel that their own interests aren't really being attended to and that there is some lesbiphobia among the heterosexual women. So these three groups come together and we see the emergence of the first kinds of lesbian organizing here, in particular the Sisters for Homophile Equality, which begins in Christchurch and with a branch in Wellington, with the formation of the Gay Feminist Group in Auckland, and with the emergence of various lesbian clubs like Club 41 in Wellington and the KG Club in Auckland and other kinds of groups. The thing about the early 1970s is that through women's liberation, gay liberation and lesbian feminism what we have is a period of extreme energy. When people talk about the 1960s they're really talking about actually the energy of the 1970s, because that's the period when everything comes, really, to a kind of peak. And it's difficult to explain to people who weren't involved at that time just how high energy this was. It was a belief that we could change the world, that it was possible to change society, that it could all happen and would happen in our lifetimes, that people would easily see how important it was to remove the obstacles to equality, to completely change the fundamentals of society. And I think that there have been periods like this in human history before. Certainly when we read some of the writings around the events leading up to and during the French Revolution in the late 18th century we can see some of that same kind of energy. And in the words of people like Wordsworth, " Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive, but to be young was very heaven," we can see that these kinds of periods have happened in human history before with a belief that this is an era of change. And it feeds upon itself because when you have a mass movement, a lot of people coming together, and with this kind of energy, this belief in ourselves and the feeling that it could all happen, then there's a very important movement. So, a lot of things happen in the 1970s in terms of lesbian organizing, and that continues on through the 1980s, as well. Of course there are a lot of problems. You get, for example, conflicts between lesbians and straight feminists in New Zealand, particularly at Piha, which was an important meeting taking place there, and at the United Women's Conventions taking place in 1977 and 1979, and after each of these even more lesbians began to organize separately. From 1978 several groups were formed in Wellington, including a specific working-class group, a self-help therapy group, and the Lesbian Project, which focused on organizing regular social events and raising funds to open a Lesbian Center. Breathing Space, a discussion and social group for women coming out as lesbians held regular fortnightly meetings during 1979 and 1980. The Lesbian Wellington Network formed following the 1979 United Women's Convention, and that met at regular intervals and organized many political and social events and produced a newsletter. In November, 1979, the first Lesbian Center opened in rooms at Boulcott Street, and subsequently there was a second Lesbian Center opening in Cuba Street, so at one time there were actually two. The Lesbian Liberation Week was held in October, 1980, and there was a campaign against the Wellington City Council which had refused to carry advertisements for the Lesbian Center on its buses. And in other centers there were also forms of distinctive lesbian organizing. In smaller centers lesbians often worked in organizations together with feminists or with gay men for mutual support in both political and social activities, for example, in MAGRA, the Manawatu Gay Rights Association established in Palmerston North in 1977, which still continues as MALGRA, the Manawatu Lesbian and Gay Rights Association, and there were smaller organizations in places like Ashburton, Gisborne, Wanganui and the Wairarapa. During the 1980s lesbian groups and organizations grew in numbers and scope as lesbian communities became more open and political activities became more organized and publications and services expanded. Lesbian phone lines were started on a regular basis in various cities in the 1980s, and these kinds of phone services have always been very important because as women become aware of their emerging feelings for other women, it's important to have somewhere to phone and get information and so on. In 1981 a Christchurch group established the Lesbian Line Telephone Service, and in Dunedin and Timaru in 1984. And by 1990 there were services in Nelson, Palmerston North, Timaru, Wanganui and Hamilton, as well as the four main centers. Lesbian radio broadcasting started in Wellington on Access Radio in 1984, and that was followed by lesbian broadcasting in Auckland, Christchurch and Dunedin. The Christchurch program, Wahine Takatapui, Sound Women, was broadcast on Plains Radio FM. In Dunedin the student radio station was used. And radio has been an important way to disseminate information and ideas, and to promote discussions for many sections of the lesbian communities. During the 1980s several lesbian newsletters or magazines were produced. Circle continued being produced, which had been originally produced by the Sisters for Homophile Equality, which had become defunct by the 1980s, but we had Behind Enemy Lines, Dyke News from Auckland, Lesbian Lip in Wellington, Glad Rag, and the only magazine continuing now is the Tamaki Makaurau Newsletter, which continues on into the 21st century from Auckland. The lesbian radio program continues, still in the second decade of the 21st century, and there are now a number of really important sites on the Internet providing information: Wellington Lesbians, and there is LILAC, the lesbian library which provides information and people can borrow DVDs and magazines - a whole lot of things of this kind. So, the numbers of institutions and activities and so on in the second decade of the 21st century are very important, and too numerous to talk about. But it's interesting that that period of high energy really discontinues after the end of Homosexual Law Reform, and I think it's after that that the feeling that the world could be so dramatically changed begins to fade because we move into more difficult economic times when people withdraw their energies from working in these alternative movements. And I don't think it's just a question of the ages of the people concerned, but I think people needed, lesbians needed, to be more careful about their economic future; they needed, perhaps, to be more conformist in some of the activities, and some of the more radical movements begin to decline after that sort of period. What the future will hold is difficult to know because we have now large numbers of young women who would prefer not to identify themselves as lesbian, they would rather be identifying themselves as unidentified or use other terminology: perhaps takatapui if they're of Maori descent, perhaps refer to themselves as bisexual, and many now are beginning to think of themselves as trans people. So, things change and we don't really know what kinds of organizing women, however we understand what women are, might be doing in the future. But it's interesting to reflect on our past and to see how much has been achieved when we compare our situation today with what the situation was like at the beginning of this period, as we think about how women began to meet together from the 1960s and how they began to organize political activities to make social change from the late 1960s and beginning of the 1970s. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 251
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_katherine_mansfield.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004062
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089356
TITLE: Katherine Mansfield
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1880s; Alison Laurie; Days Bay; Eastbourne; Edith Kathleen Bendall; Gay Line Wellington Trust; Katherine Mansfield; Maata Mahupuku; Ngāti Kahungunu; Queer History 101; Rule Foundation; Wellington; arts; bisexual; lesbian; transcript online; writing
DATE: 11 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison talks about writer Katherine Mansfield and her female lovers.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Hi, I'm Dr Alison Laurie. I was the Gender and Women's Studies Programme Director at Victoria University of Wellington, here in New Zealand, for many years. I'm a writer, oral historian and lesbian and gay activist. Today I'm going to be looking at Katherine Mansfield, regarded as one of our greatest writers and someone whom we know had very important emotional and probably sexual relationships with women. Should we be thinking about Katherine Mansfield as a lesbian? Do we want to use a noun like that, a label, in relation to her? Should we think of her as a lesbian writer, whatever that might mean, when actually most of the things she writes about aren't to do with same-sex relations between women, unless, of course, we think that there is some kind of sensibility that would be apparent in women, whose primary relationships are with other women, that would affect the ways in which they write about things and give them another kind of sensibility? That's a possibility, and people have tried to look at her writing in that way. Let's think about her. She's born in 1888 in Wellington. She comes from an upper-class background. Her father was Australian, Harold Beauchamp; her mother, Annie Burnell Dyer; and they later become Sir Harold and Lady Beauchamp, very important people in Wellington, Lady Beauchamp running the social scene here. Her father later becomes a director of the Bank of New Zealand and has other significant social roles. They lived in several house around Wellington as the fortunes of the family improved, and the children attended, initially, local public schools, but as the family became wealthier they were later sent to private schools. When Katherine Mansfield - Kathleen Beauchamp as was her original name - was 12 they were transferred from Wellington Girls' High School to Miss Swainson's School, now Samuel Marsden Collegiate School for Girls, and that's where Katherine Mansfield first met Maata Mahupuku, probably her first lover - certainly a very intense and close relationship between the two of them. The Beauchamps, like other wealthy New Zealanders, wanted to see their children's education completed abroad, and in January of 1903 the family sailed for London where the three older girls were enrolled at Queen's College in London, and their maternal aunt, Belle Dyer, remained there as chaperone. It was at this school that Katherine Mansfield met Ida Constance Baker whom she later called Lesley Moore, or LM. During her time at the school she was exposed to a number of different ideas. She became familiar with the work of Oscar Wilde. Of course the Oscar Wilde trial had happened not that long before then. She becomes more worldly. She makes a trip to Belgium where she encounters some interesting people there, and then she returns to New Zealand in 1906. She becomes involved, in Wellington, with Edith Kathleen Bendall who she refers to as EKB, and that relationship was very important to her. She appears to be having very intense friendships with EKB and with Maata, who also returns to Wellington, and she appears to be having relationships with the two of them at that time here in Wellington. Now, Maata is Maata Mahupuku, she's from Wanganui, she's also known as Martha Grace and sometimes as Princess Martha. She was the daughter of Kahungunu chief Dick Mahupuku and Emily Sexton, who married Nathaniel Grace after Mahupuku's death. Pat Lawlor, in his early biography, says that Katherine and Maata's early relationship was of some concern to their teachers, and that Sir Harold and Lady Beauchamp did not favor the friendship. And this might be because they were aware of its intensity and disapproved of that, or it may be because of the fact that Maata was Maori and there may have been some racism involved in their concerns about this. They had met up in London before Katherine returned to New Zealand, because Maata had been at finishing school in Paris, and she was accompanied by her own chaperone, Miss Turton. It was during this time that Katherine allowed Maata to purchase clothing and leave the bill for Harold Beauchamp to settle, so there may have been some problems around that. In her journal Katherine refers to Maata as Carlotta, and she writes, " O, Carlotta - have you remembered? We were floating down Regent Street in a hansom - on either side of us the blossoms of golden light - and ahead a little half hoop of a moon." Then in June, 1907, in her journal she writes, " I want Maata - I want her as I have had her - terribly. This is unclean I know but true. What an extraordinary thing - I feel savagely crude - and almost powerfully enamored of the child. I had thought that a thing of the past - Heigh Ho! My mind is like a Russian novel." And around about that same time, Maata wrote in her own diary, which she then gave to Katherine, " Dearest K writes ducky letters. I like this bit, 'What do you mean by being so superlatively beautiful as you went away? You witch! You are beauty incarnate.'" Pat Lawlor interviewed Maata and reported that she revealed unpublished incidents in Katherine's life, saying that Katherine had left New Zealand because of a flirtation in 1908, and saying that Sir Harold had locked his daughter in her room as a punishment, and to console her Maata had climbed up to her room. Maata revealed other sensational aspects of her alleged knowledge of Katherine Mansfield which Lawlor said he did not wish to publish. So, there are clearly all kinds of clues and rumors and incidents that are of interest in relation to this. One of the most interesting is a story that Katherine Mansfield writes, and she writes it placing a protagonist in The Thistle Inn. In the story she writes, " I can never forget the Thistle Hotel. I can never forget that strange winter night."".... My room was opposite hers. She said - could I lace up her evening bodice, it was hooks at the back. Very well." The story ends, " She told me as we walked along the corridor to her room that she was glad the night had come. I did not ask why. I was glad, too. It seemed a secret between us. So I went with her into her room to undo those troublesome hooks.... Like a sleepy child she slipped out of her frock and then, suddenly, she turned to me and flung her arms around my neck.... And Youth was not dead." This story was called " Leves Amores," and it was eventually published from a copy that Katherine Mansfield had sent her school friend Vere Bartrick-Baker, whom she referred to as Mimi. In January, 1922, Katherine wrote, and this was about a year before her death in 1923, that she'd " received a frightening letter from Mimi, which brought back the inexplicable past. It flashed into my mind, too, that she must have a large number of letters of mine, which don't bear thinking about. In some way I fear her." This suggests that Katherine had sent Mimi similar stories or letters, regarding her as a safe confidante. Mimi was the girl who had introduced Katherine to the 1891 unexpurgated version of Oscar Wilde's " The Picture of Dorian Gray" at school. And it was at school, according to biographer Claire Tomalin that the two, that's Mimi and Katherine, were suspected of immorality of a kind unspecified. Now, it appears that her parents may have read this story. Certainly Katherine gave the story to her father's typist to type, and it may be this that's the reason that there's an incident which does result in the fact that they are prepared to allow her, in 1908, to return to London unchaperoned. Now, this is a young woman where they felt that her sisters and her constantly needed chaperones on the voyage; suddenly they're prepared to allow her to go off to England on her own and have a remittance - to have some money that she's going to regularly receive in order to live there. In a sense, she's a remittance woman in the opposite direction, and a possible explanation of this is that there's a scandal going on, that they don't want her in Wellington, it's going to affect the family's reputation, and that they are concerned. It's likely that they're more concerned about her relationship with Maata, and there is evidence that Maata, during an engagement party for Katherine's sister, came to Wellington and she attended it. It's very unlikely that she would have stayed with the family at Fitzherbert Terrace; it's much more likely that she would have stayed at The Thistle Inn up the road, so this story was actually about Maata at The Thistle Inn, and that the parents did end up reading it. Even Antony Alpers talked about this and says that there was an episode that happened, and he wonders whether a story that was being put about, which was about a dance with a sailor at a ball, and he wonders whether there was an adventure, actually with a man, or with Maata and whether the Beauchamps were concerned about Katherine's chastity or whether they had the word pervert in mind. Now, Katherine also had a relationship with Edith Kathleen Bendall, and she writes about this fairly frankly in her journal. In June, 1907, she writes about an episode with Edith Kathleen Bendall at the Beauchamps holiday cottage in Day's Bay, that's the cottage that's the subject of the story " At the Bay," but that's not what she's writing about in her journal. She writes, " I feel more powerfully all those so-termed sexual impulses with her than I have with any men. I feel that to lie with my head on her breast is to feel what life can hold. Pillowed against her, clinging to her hands, her face against mine, I am a child, a woman and more than half man. We lay down together still silently. She, every now and then pressing me to her, kissing me, my head on her breasts, her hands around my body stroking me lovingly - what an experience! And when we returned to town small wonder that I could not sleep but tossed to-and-fro and yearned and realized a thousand things which had been obscure. O, Oscar! Am I peculiarly susceptible to sexual impulse? I must be, I suppose, but I rejoice now each time I see her. I want her to put her arms around me and hold me against her. I think she wants to, too, but she is afraid and custom hedges her in, I feel. We shall go away again." Then she writes in between February and May, 1908, " I shall end, of course, by killing myself. I purchase my brilliance with my life. It were better that I were dead already, but I am unlike others because I have experienced all there is to experience. But there is no one to help me. Of course, Oscar, " Dorian Gray" has brought this to pass. I am now so much worse than ever. Madness must lie this way. Pull yourself up!" It's clear that Katherine was familiar with the work not only of Oscar Wilde but of John Addington Symonds, Edward Carpenter and Walt Whitcombe. She read books at the General Assembly Library, arranged through her father's connections, and she mentions Edward Carpenter, who wrote " The Intermediate Sex," in a letter, and she also writes, " I find a resemblance in myself to John Addington Symonds." So, it appears that she actually has quite a bit of information and that her information is that homosexuality is degenerate, it's a perversion, and she starts to become very frightened about all of this, and especially if she is sent away from Wellington then that clearly is going to be very traumatic for her. Now, both Maata and EKB remain in New Zealand and she corresponds with them for some years. And Katherine Mansfield writes several stories inspired by these women, and traces and clues can be seen in relation to that. Meanwhile, although she's having these intense relationships with these two women, she continues her friendship with Ida Baker, and when she returns to London that's the person with whom she resumes a friendship and a relationship, and that's the relationship which endures for the rest of her life until her death in 1923. So that's actually the most important relationship of her life - certainly the most consistent. When she returns to London she's met by Ida Baker. She stays with her family before she moves to a hostel. And then she becomes involved with the New Zealand musician Garnet Trowell and moves in with his family as a paying guest, and she appears to have been trying to create a relationship with him. She writes to Trowell that she felt as though, " Nature said to me, 'Now you've found your true self. Now that you are at peace with the world, accepting instead of doubting, now that you love, you can see.'" Another lodger at the hostel has described Trowell as slender, dreamy and cultured, and Alpers commented that he was not markedly masculine. Her interest in the Trowell's, they were twins, had begun in New Zealand. She had written in her journal that Arnold Trowell " must always be everything to me because he poured into my virgin soul the life essence of music, and here is the kernel of the whole matter - the Oscar-like thread." So, clearly she is dwelling on her emerging sexuality. She is concerned about this and the circumstances, and she's particularly concerned because before they'd returned to New Zealand she'd visited the Trowells in Brussels where she'd met their homosexual friend, Rudolph, and shortly afterwards Rudolph had shot himself. Antony Alpers comments, " The circumstances which belong to the world of Oscar Wilde, and the love that dare not spread its name, were very disturbing to Katherine Mansfield. Did that sort of thing lead to suicide?" And perhaps the Trowells and Rudolf were involved in homosexual relationships at that time - the Oscar-like thread - or just as significantly, perhaps Katherine Mansfield believed that they were. She wanted to marry Garnet Trowell but his parents intervened and the relationship ended. Suddenly, in March, 1909, she married George Bowden, a singing teacher she'd met only a fortnight before. Bowden, age 31, lived with a male friend, Lamont Chand [?][00:16:14]. Again, perhaps they were homosexual, or perhaps Katherine Mansfield believed they were. She was constantly, in her journals and in her letters, seeking " my people;" perhaps a reference to homosexuality as well as to like-mindedness. Claire Tomalin suggests that she married Bowden because she was pregnant to Arnold. Even if this were the case she may still have preferred to marry a man that she thought might have an inclination toward his own sex. Bowden, in his own recollections, recalled that when they first met she looked like Oscar Wilde, so perhaps she was attempting to signal her sexuality through dress. For their wedding she dressed in black as if for a funeral, and afterwards they went to a hotel where Katherine Mansfield immediately left him and fled back to Ida Baker. She returned to the hostel and Ida Baker found her a flat. And then her mother, because of these incidents, comes to London, there's a good deal of trouble and she takes her to Germany to the Bavarian spa, Bad Wörishofen, and that is the place where Dr Kneipp has the water treatment, and the water treatment was thought very useful for nervous and mental problems, and it was frequently used for sexual problems. So, it may well be the case that Lady Beauchamp thinks that Katherine has a sexual problem because of her interest in women. This has upset the marriage, certainly she's not pleased with her, and she sails back to New Zealand and she cuts Katherine out of her will, and that's pretty drastic. News of the scandal reaches Wellington, and Vera Beauchamp, the sister, her fiancé was warned against marrying the sister of somebody like Katherine Mansfield. So, contemporary theories of biological determinism might have encouraged the belief that there was some kind of inherited perversion in the family. Katherine stayed in Germany until the end of 1909, possibly miscarried her pregnancy, and she possibly had an affair with Floryan Sobienowski who infected her with gonorrhea, subsequently making her vulnerable to the tuberculosis infection from which she died. She may have thought that having a number of heterosexual affairs might cure her interest in women. Perhaps she's bisexual, as some biographers have written about her. Perhaps she's just very interested in sexual experimentation. It's difficult to know, however she's clearly not very happy, and clearly she finds all of this a great worry and disturbance. When she returns to London she performs at the Cave of the Golden Calf, which is a nightclub patronized by lesbians and run by Frida Strindberg, an acknowledged lesbian and the former wife of Swedish playwright August Strindberg. She's also familiar with the Bloomsbury circle and Lady Ottoline Morrell's group at Garsington, though she feels ambivalent about Bloomsbury, or Bloomsbuggery as she calls it, where discussions on the loves of buggers, sodomy and sapphism were common. She became close to Virginia Woolf from 1916, their connection probably expressed in this passage, " Again there came that silence that was a question, but this time she did not hesitate. She moved forward very softly and gently. She put her arm around her friend - a long, tender embrace. Yes, that was it, of course. That was what was wanting." So there are many other kinds of passages where she writes about those kinds of things. She becomes involved with John Middleton Murry in 1911, and he became a lodger in her flat, and after some weeks her lover. They married in 1918 after her divorce from Bowden. She writes in her 1919 journal that, " I had been the man and he had been the woman. We'd always acted more or less like men friends. Then this illness getting worse and worse and turning me into a woman." Others also perceived them as men-friends. One Bandol Frenchman recalled, " Monsieur with his cigarette and his stick, and Madame with her cigarette and her stick, it was impossible to tell which was which they were so alike." So, that's the relationship she had with him. It's quite an intense relationship, but largely carried on through letters, and difficult at this stage to know how physical that relationship might have been. She becomes very ill from 1918. It's unlikely that she had any kind of physical relationship much with anybody after that. Ida Baker, later known as LM, in her memoirs she puts in a poem that Katherine Mansfield had written to her called " The Secret":In the profoundest oceanThere is a rainbow shell. It is always there, shining most stillyUnder the great storm wavesAnd under the happy little wavesThat the old Greeks called " ripples of laughter." And you listen, the rainbow shellSings - in the profoundest ocean. It is always there, singing most silently! And this might suggest the existence of a secret Katherine Mansfield self, special to Ida Baker and to LM, which cannot be destroyed even by storm waves. She writes earlier in her journal, " I think quite seriously that LM and I are so extraordinarily interesting. It is not while the thing is happening that I think that, but the significance is near enough. Have I ruined her happy life? Am I to blame?" And she writes in one of her last letters to Lesley Moore, " I had better end this quickly for the old feeling is coming back, an ache, a longing, a feeling that I can't be satisfied unless I know you are near - not on my account, not because I need you, but because in my horrid, odious, intolerable way I love you and am yours ever." And she ends her life by going to Fontainebleau. She becomes interested in the teachings of Gurdjieff, which is interesting in itself because a year later a number of American lesbians also go there. So, that's an interesting, esoteric kind of religion, and it's unclear whether she just goes there because she feels it will help cure her tuberculosis or whether she wants some other kind of more spiritual, psychological change, but an entry that she writes in her journal is interesting. She writes in October, 1922, " Risk! Risk anything! Care no more for the opinions of others, for those voices. Do the hardest thing on earth for you. Act for yourself. Face the truth." And it may be that she was hoping to begin anew and to find a way in which to live her life. Unfortunately her health completely declines and she died. So, we don't know from this stage what her life would have been like had she lived longer. We don't know how important the relationships that she had with women were, but I think we can say that she's certainly deeply conflicted about them. They were important to her, and in those ways it's very interesting to think about how same-sexuality has been such an important part of the lives of many creative women in New Zealand. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 249
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_labels.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004063
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089357
TITLE: Labels
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: Alison Laurie; Gay Line Wellington Trust; Queer History 101; Rule Foundation; gay liberation movement; labels; stereotypes; takatāpui; transcript online
DATE: 11 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison talks about the various words and labels that have been used to describe queer communities in New Zealand.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Hi, I'm Dr Alison Laurie. I was the Gender and Women's Studies Programme Director at Victoria University of Wellington, here in New Zealand, for many years. I'm a writer, oral historian and lesbian and gay activist. Today I'm going to be looking at labels and how people who have same-sex relations have referred to themselves. Language is very important because until language exists people can't name themselves or talk about their sexuality. But then, on the other hand, that doesn't mean that they aren't doing it, but it's a question of at which stage does this become verbalized? If we go back through the written records we find that every society has had some kind of way of talking about same-sexuality. Among the Greeks there are terms, but more generally it was thought that certainly among men this was something that everybody would be doing: an older man with a younger man, a way of learning of love between men, very important on the battlefield, and those kinds of things. The Greeks were writing a lot about this model. And we know that from the Greeks, too, the Isle of Lesbos, where the poet Sappho lived, that she wrote many of her poems to women, that she had a university or school for women and that clearly the poems express love between women. Interestingly, one of the legends about Sappho is that she eventually leaps to her death for love of a man, so once again these kinds of ideas from the Greeks don't talk about exclusive same-sex relationships, and clearly the Greek men were all expected to marry, but there is some view that their love for their wives is not as profound as their love for their comrades. So that's a model coming to us from them, with some terminology. There are certainly views about same-sex love from Egypt where pharaohs, and also from Rome where kings, did enter into what appear to be some sort of same-sex union, perhaps marriage. So wherever we turn we can see that there have been instances of same-sexual love and relationships, and that there have probably been some sorts of terminology to refer to this. But it's difficult to make an argument that we're finding terminology which suggests unique, special people are doing it. Even though we do find terms like lesbian existing, going back many, many centuries, and being understood, there isn't necessarily an idea that this was an exclusive sexual orientation as we understand that in a modern term, and sodomite doesn't necessarily carry that view either, any more than you might say that referring to someone as a burglar or stamp collector is everything about their identity or would suggest something that wouldn't change. So it's important, perhaps, to think about that sort of thing. As we move into the 19th century we see the medicalization of the human body, the rise of the medical profession. They begin to train; they begin to take over, defining many things about the human state. Prior to then, the understanding of human sexuality had been the province of the church. The church, certainly until the end of the Catholic period, took the view that everybody would be tempted to do any of these sexual sins, or in fact any sin. Everybody would be tempted to masturbate. Everybody would be tempted to do sex with their own sex or sex out of wedlock with the other sex, and that people shouldn't do it. You would need to confess it and promise not to do it again. And even as we move into the Protestant period we don't get much difference in terms of that. It's all thought to be sin and people shouldn't be doing it. Now, once we pass through the Enlightenment the church loses its position to make pronouncements about the human conditions. The rise of science is very important here because science says that only science can understand nature, and if God is part of it then it's God's intention that we should investigate these things and find out about them ourselves. So the Enlightenment is very important, and it is that period from the late 18th century that gives rise then to doctors and scientists in the 19th century pronouncing on the human body. The first things the doctors do is medicalize many aspects; for example, childbirth becomes something that midwives won't be doing anymore, doctors will be doing it. Things like menopause and menstruation become diseases. They're very concerned about the fact that they see the whole female body is a likely site of many diseases because it's so weird to have a uterus, so they begin to start talking about things like hysteria again. And they become very interested in sexuality, and Jeffery Weeks says, " In many ways they take the views of the church but they medicalize them," so they say we've got this normal sexuality, and then we've got this abnormal sexuality. The first use of the term homosexual happens in 1869 when Dr Benkert, who was neither a doctor nor was that his real name, refers to homosexual. He makes the term up and he refers to this in a pamphlet where he's arguing for a change in the law in Prussia against buggery and acts between men. This term is then taken up and used by a number of people subsequently. There had been some earlier terms in use, but this is the one that becomes popular, and the first use of this term in English is in 1892. The first use of heterosexual is not until quite a bit later, and in fact bisexual is used for quite awhile as meaning an attraction to the other sex – bi meaning two sexes. So the original usage of all these terms is not quite as we may have learnt them later in the 20th century and so on. Lesbian stays in common parlance, always being understood, and that's interesting. It's being used in pornography and it continues on as a term which is the oldest term for sex between women. Now, the term homosexual and the idea of a unique sexual identity, Michel Foucault, writing about this in The History of Sex, tends to be quite strict about this and says that it really only exists from the later part of the 19th century. We might trace it earlier, and we can't completely rule out that some people did think of themselves as having a fixed sexual attraction in earlier times. We simply don't know enough about that. But certainly by the time we get to Magnus Hirschfeld in Berlin, he sets up the Institute of Sexual Science, and he very much sets up the idea of homosexuality – inversion – as a permanent biologically determined state. Now, he's a medical doctor. He's part of that group of doctors, including people like Cesare Lombroso who was very interested in inborn criminality, which could be physically demonstrated by characteristics of the head – all of these kinds of ideas about the human body that became popular with the Nazis 40 years later, that actually you had biological characteristic which were unchangeable. So we have to see Hirschfeld, although he is a heroic figure and very important in terms of the history of homosexual politics, but we do have to see his ideas about fixed biological identity as part of something which is broader than that. Now, there were other people at that time who absolutely did not agree with him. Adolf Brand, who started Der Eigene, The Community of the Special, he and people who belonged to that organization in Germany and elsewhere, because there were members of that organization and receiving their magazine in many different countries, their view was that we are " the special." We are especially good, masculine men, and we're just like the Greeks – we love masculinity – and in fact really masculine men can actually only love other men because women are so inferior, who would love them? It's very sexist, but it is an interestingly different kind of viewpoint and it's mirrored in some respects in the early women's movement in Germany, which shows some tendencies, in some respects, towards lesbian feminism. Lillian Faderman cites a woman who stood up at a conference in about 1905 and said that inverted women had done a great deal for the women's movement, and what thanks had they had? So clearly these views are being shared by women, and they were women who were certainly part of Hirschfeld's movement as well. So we see a whole body of different ideas conflicting. In terms of the British ideas, Edward Carpenter, who as a socialist, vegetarian and spokesperson for what he called the intermediate sex, had a number of women who were followers of his, and again we get an idea that there are special people, but it is rather fluid because Carpenter is of the idea that the intermediate sex, which is a fairly large category, can interpret extremely masculine men and extremely feminine women to one another. So, in a way he's talking about a continuum. These ideas of a continuum are floating around at this time, and of course they re-emerge with Kinsey in the late 1940s when he actually looks at the practices of same-sexual behavior among men and women in the United States and finds that this does in fact work on a continuum and that the majority of people are somewhere in the middle and not at extremes. So that is another kind of interpretation. So in many respects we've seen a balance between ideas about innate, inborn sexuality which is highly fixed in one direction, with some people being bisexual and that's then fixed in two directions, and so forth, and that sort of view, and another view which is that of social construction, which is environment, which says that you might develop your sexuality in terms of things that happen in your environment and that it might also be able to be changed. The notion of a fixed sexual identity is important when we talk about the law. Hirschfeld was annoyed with others at that time, at the beginning of the century, because he thought that talking about the fact that everybody might be able to do it – all men might be going to be able to do it – would certainly influence the authorities in terms of changing the law. And certainly that was a view that we took here, too, during Homosexual Law Reform; that actually to talk about the fact that yes, everybody might like to do this would be playing into the hands of the fundamentalists who said if you change the law it means that these awful men are going to go out and seduce a whole lot of other men and seduce boys and that sort of thing. Clearly you've got a better legal argument if you say only a small number of people, just a fixed minority, want to do this so there's no need to have a law against it. But that may not really be the way that things are, because we may have a more universal view, really, of human sexuality. Gay liberation came along in the late 1960s and through the 1970s, and lesbian feminism. Very emphatically gay liberation said: We want to bring out the lesbian and gay man in everybody's head. This is something that everybody should be doing. And lesbian feminism said: Every woman can be a lesbian, and in fact, in a society where men oppress women, to be lesbian is a sign of mental health. And so lesbian feminism was saying: Leave these oppressive marriages. Come out! You'll be much happier if you find a woman partner. And a lot of gay liberationists felt that men stuck in their rigid heterosexual roles were denying themselves an exploration of their sexuality and their emotional beings. So those ideas were very definitely there from the 1970s and '80s. And as we move into now, the second decade of the 21st century, we see a greater universalizing principle. Many young people are not that interested in calling themselves gay or lesbian. They like to call themselves unidentified. Many people don't even necessarily want to call themselves bisexual. We've seen the rise of the term takatapui here in Aotearoa / New Zealand. This term resurrected from the story about Hinemoa and Tutanekai by the scholars Ngahuia Te Awekotuku and Lee Smith independently finding this term, which originally has the meaning of " intimate friend of the same sex," but which is now being much more widely used to refer to people who are part of these alternative communities, rather as our original term kamp, which was the term we used here before we got the American terms gay and lesbian in the 1970s and began to use those fairly exclusively. So we see a movement, really, toward either people not labeling themselves, or labeling themselves in a more inclusive kind of way. And we're finding now, as we're talking about the various communities, that we want to use constructions like LGBTTQI, where we might be saying the communities which are lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, takatapui, fa' afafine, queer, questioning, and intersex, that we see a much broader church when we're talking about who our communities are. So, all we can really say about language and about ideas about same-sexuality is that they change according to the circumstances of the time and can't exist apart from the societies in which we find ourselves, so that as we look forward into the future all we can say is that it will certainly change, and ideas about same-sexuality will change. But it does appear that in this country we're moving forward into an area where more people are questioning, more people are prepared to consider the fact that they might be attracted to someone of the same sex and that their sexuality isn't fixed and could change. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 247
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_meeting_places.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004067
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089361
TITLE: Meeting places
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1940s; Alison Laurie; Club 41; Dorian Society; Gay Line Wellington Trust; KG Club (Auckland); Queer History 101; Royal Oak Hotel; Rule Foundation; social; transcript online; venues
DATE: 12 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison talks about the different types of places queer communities met.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Hi, I'm Dr Alison Laurie. I was the Gender and Women's Studies Programme Director at Victoria University of Wellington, here in New Zealand, for many years. I'm a writer, oral historian and lesbian and gay activist. Today I'm going to be looking at meeting places for people interested in relationships with their own sex, and how these developed in New Zealand, though first I'll look a bit at how some of these meeting places developed overseas. We know that by the late 18th century there were what became known as molly houses in London where relatively upper-class men would wear women's clothes and sit about in particular coffee houses. Various societies for the improvement of morals were concerned about these and did try to get them closed down, so there is some evidence about that, and historians like Jeffrey Weeks have written about that. We also know that there appear to have been, for men, public areas where they could meet, and there are reports of this through the 19th century and of course through the 20th century, in cities like Paris where there'd be particular parks, open-air places and ultimately men's toilets where men would meet to make connections. What's interesting about that is there's been some research done in Newcastle, in New South Wales, that certainly in the mid 20th century, moving toward the later 20th century, those kinds of meeting places, the beats, were not so much only for men to meet and have sex, but really they were social scenes – that quite often married men would meet there. They'd go out at night for a walk with the dog, they'd meet there, they'd have a cigarette together, they'd exchange gossip, and of course some sexual contact did go on, but that they were just as much social scenes as they were anything else. This kind of possibility has never been open really to women because women have not had the same access to public spaces as men. Women in public spaces on their own, or even with a couple of women, there's always been a suspicion that they were there to do sex work. And certainly we have some suggestions of a connection between sex work and same-sexual practices among women from reports from Paris from the early part of the 19th century; that there appear to have been restaurants attached to brothels where women who may well have been in same-sexual relationships congregated and met there. Now of course for the upper classes there's always been other kinds of possibilities, and we have reports, again from Paris, of salons like that of Natalie Barney, of other kinds of highly ranking nightclubs and things like that, with reports that women met one another there, and obviously men did as well. And the research that's been done on meeting places in New York has focused, especially that of Joan Nestle, on the kinds of lesbian bars that emerged there in the 1950s, and similarly in places like California and so on. So, what was the situation in New Zealand? Unfortunately we lack a lot of information because much of the research is still to be done. What we can say is that the situation here was always very different to many other parts of the world. For a start, we had 6:00 closing in the pubs, and that came in after 1918. We were very lucky not to get prohibition but we did get very restrictive licensing practices, and pubs had to shut at 6:00. They were not open on Sundays. They were not allowed to serve any food or have any entertainment because that would encourage drinking. The public bars did not allow women to be in them at all. Women were only allowed in hotels in the Ladies and Escorts bars, and that was supposedly to prevent prostitution, and drinks cost a higher price in the Ladies and Escorts bars, which were sometimes known as the cats' bar. And a lot of hotels didn't even have a cats' bar. And people of a certain age can often remember sitting in the car park in the car, with their mothers and siblings, when their father might bring a shandy out to their mother and soft drinks for the children while he went and had a beer in the public bar. So this is a different situation, a very different social situation to that that you would have even had in England at the time or other parts of the world. And clearly in such a situation there are not any kinds of dedicated lesbian or gay bars. There were, however, for men, public bars: in Wellington The Tavern and in Lyttelton the British Hotel where men could gather. But it was much more difficult for women to find a bar where they could meet, and even when you did you had to be out at 6:00, so meeting places in New Zealand as they emerged in the post-war period were quite often coffee bars. In Wellington the Tete a Tete was very popular, that was in Herbert Street, and in Auckland the Kadoro, and these were places where everybody knew that the kamp crowd would go. And the term that was used at that time is kamp. The term gay comes in later. The term lesbian, although it was understood, it was pejorative and people would not have used that of themselves. People knew the term homosexual, but once again, that was worrying to them. So, among the communities themselves one of the terms that were used was the term kamp. So, people would meet in the coffee bars. Also, other social historians writing on other topics have said New Zealand in fact didn't stop at 6:00; that's when it opened up, because in fact there were lots and lots of private parties. And there were many kamp parties. There were people whose houses really were often used as the party house and where everybody would go for the Friday and Saturday night party. Sometimes those parties would go on all weekend, so there was a good deal of socializing in that kind of way. And people who would go to those parties, were they all kamp? Well in those times, in the 1950s and also as we move through the 1960s, before the communities become more politicized a lot of people would go to the parties who certainly didn't identify themselves as kamp. So far as the kamp men were concerned, these men were trade. They were men who might do it or might not. Nobody was asked about their sexual identity. And you would also have, among the women, I remember several female couples who would explain that one of them was kamp and the other was not, and if their relationship ended she'd be going back to men. And then the relationship would end and she'd have another woman girlfriend, but she still would never identify herself as kamp, and that was not uncommon. So in a way it's a kind of model that there's one kamp and then the other one isn't kamp. And then you have people who constantly go to kamp parties but they're not kamp, so the question of identity isn't as important as the fact that people participate in a community and there they are at these parties. Now, I've been asked by people living elsewhere how come these people could have parties? How come they had backyards? How come they had houses? And that's an interesting New Zealand question, too, because in the aftermath of World War II we had a very good state housing policy so we have houses for rent because heterosexual families have quite often managed to acquire a state house, so there are houses for rent that groups of kamp people could rent. There's also more flats becoming available in the city areas because families are wanting to move to the suburbs. So in that sense we were lucky to have houses with backyards and a higher standard of living than would have been the case in some other countries, and certainly in some other cities. Anyway, our ways of socializing are uniquely New Zealand and they're also informed tremendously by those palaces of queer culture that sail into our harbors, certainly every week and sometimes more than once a week, and these are the boats that went between New Zealand and Europe, in particular British boats, but also ships from Holland and other countries. And a lot of the people working on those boats – the men working on those boats, especially the stewards – were queer. And they brought into New Zealand all kinds of information: they brought books, magazines which you couldn't have imported legally, they brought gossip about what was going on in the rest of the world. They brought, for the straight community, these reports about how they brought Old Spice, which was an aftershave unknown here really until then. They brought the latest fashions like Teddy Boy fashions, they brought records and that kind of thing. And during the war we'd had impulses from America. So in this period, say from 1940 and from then on, you get very strong impulses coming in giving people a different impression, different ideas about how you might be queer, how your communities might be formed and that sort of thing. As I say, for women it's harder because you don't have access to a public life on the streets in quite that way. For men there's always that possibility of the beats and something which is more anonymous. In 1967 we get 10:00 closing and the opening up of the pubs to provide entertainment, food, to make them more welcoming for women – that's thought to be very important – so within a short space of time you get huge social changes. Certainly by the time you get to the 1980s you have a scene of nightclubs and night places serving alcohol with entertainment, which is just the same as you'd find in many other parts of the world. The first formal club is the Dorian Club which starts here in 1962. Now, this is not licensed, so these kinds of clubs had to operate under the law. The first lesbian club is the KG Club in Auckland. That was started by a group of Maori women, and KG stood for Karangahape Road, which is where it was situated, the first premises, and also for Kamp Girls, spelled with a K for Kamp Girl's Club. And that also operated under the law. And the first club in Wellington is Club 41 which was started by lesbians from SHE, The Sisters for Homophile Equality, started by four lesbians from that organization, and the premises were purchased from Carmen, who ran many venues in Wellington including Carmen's Balcony, with drag shows, and Carmen's Coffee Lounge where people could meet and pick up those of the same sex. The way in which these clubs operated illegally was that people bought tickets. That was one way to do it to sell alcohol because people hadn't actually bought alcohol, they'd bought a ticket and then they could exchange the ticket for a drink. But it's still under the radar and there were raids because of selling alcohol without a license, and problems. All of this changes once we move into a different kind of regulatory environment and we start getting other kinds of lesbian and gay clubs far too numerous to talk about here, but we had things like the Victoria Club here in Wellington, then had various lesbian clubs situated here and there. And that's true also in cities like Christchurch and Auckland; not so much in smaller areas, though it's interesting that both Palmerston North and Napier have always had a fair share of venues where people could meet. As we move now into speeding through the 1990s and through into the 21st century we can say now, as we move into the second decade of the 21st century, that a good deal of the ways in which people meet are through the Internet. And it interests me that talking to young people especially, young gay men express some shock and horror about an earlier time when men would have been meeting each other on the beats and how scary that must have been and a frightening thing to do. But in many respects, meeting unknown people on the Internet, for people of my generation, can also seem quite frightening because you don't know who those people are necessarily, and you certainly need to be careful about meeting them in person without finding out more about them. And certainly, organizations like Pink Sofa would recommend that that's what people do, that they find out more or take a friend along if you're actually going to meet someone. So, clearly the ways of meeting people, as we move further into the 21st century, become more and more linked to the electronic means that we have at hand. And the other thing that one might say about that is that in a way we return to perhaps some of those more broadly defined ways of meeting, as in those early kamp parties; that people don't necessarily need to consistently define themselves as homosexual or as gay or as lesbian in order to set up a same-sex acquaintance on the Internet; that there's much more opportunity for people to explore different ideas or desires that might occur to them from time to time, and that we may be moving into something which is much more broadly defined than our communities of the late 20th century may have been. And we really can't predict what the meeting places of the future will be like or how people might define themselves if they use those meeting places. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 245
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_hagley_park_killing.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004060
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089354
TITLE: Hagley Park killing
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1960s; Alison Laurie; Charles Allan Aberhart; Christchurch; Gay Line Wellington Trust; Hagley Park; Queer History 101; Rule Foundation; beats; courts; crime; cruising; gay; hate crime; law; police; transcript online
DATE: 11 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison talks about the killing of Charles Aberhart in 1964.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Hi, I'm Dr Alison Laurie. I was the Gender and Women's Studies Programme Director at Victoria University of Wellington, here in New Zealand, for many years. I'm a writer, oral historian and lesbian and gay activist. Today I'm going to be looking at the Hagley Park case. This case was a killing which happened on the evening of the 23rd of January, 1964. On this date a gay man named Charles Aberhart was cruising in the area inside and outside a brick public toilet near the Armagh Street entrance to Hagley Park in Christchurch. A group of adolescent boys aged between 15 and 17 attacked him. They punched him, they robbed him and they left him dying beside the path. A passerby discovered his body later that night at about 10:30. The passerby had seen the boys who were responsible, and by the following morning the police had identified them and arrested them and taken statements from them. Who was Charles Aberhart? He was a draper from Blenheim, aged 35 at the time, and at one point he'd actually lived in Christchurch and then he became the manager in Blenheim of a branch of the Christchurch drapery store, Millers. The year before, he'd been convicted of indecent assault on another male and he had been sentenced to three months in prison, and the magistrate had said at the time that he would give him a light sentence because the two parties consented. He was in Christchurch cruising. What he was unaware of was that there had been a number of queer-bashings in Hagley Park at right about that time. There were reports from gay men who were sitting in their cars outside the park of seeing him go into the park, but nobody thought to warn him because they didn't know him. And the boys were seen running from the park afterwards, and some of the people sitting in cars outside were concerned that something terrible had happened. The boys made statements about it. There was no question whether they'd done it; they admitted it and it was described as a queer-bashing. They went on trial on the 5th of May and the evidence took five days to hear. And the judge, in summing up, reminded the jury that it was not necessary to identify the actual person who struck the final and fatal blow – they all admitted to having kicked and hit him. The jury retired for seven hours. It was an all-male jury and they acquitted all of the six boys of any crime, which was absolutely shocking that they did that. The newspapers reported the crime. The Christchurch Press reported it and there were a number of letters to the newspaper, but mainly the Christchurch Press were interested in the nature of juries and whether or not they're still appropriate to our legal system in the light of the verdict. Nobody appeared to be willing to defend homosexuals, really, or to be concerned about whether or not homosexuals should have the same human rights as other people. In fact the only person, strangely, who did so, was the judge, who had cautioned the jury not to give any attention to Aberhart's private life in reaching their conclusions. The weekly newspaper Truth mentioned this case only once, a month after the trial, in the context of another story about juries reaching strange conclusions, and they didn't discuss the sexual dimension of the case. There were some other articles dealing with aspects of the case. One in Landfall by somebody called Ian Breward who said, " Homosexuals in New Zealand labour under a triple disadvantage. They are regarded with disgust, suffer severe legal penalties if convicted, and worst of all are not even guaranteed the posthumous satisfaction of seeing their assailants brought to justice; that is, they're not considered equal with other citizens before the law." But he also talked about abnormal and therapy and described homosexuality as not exactly a sickness, but as something which should not be regarded as a crime. There was another article by Vincent O'Sullivan in a journal called Comment, and that was quite positive. He thought that the whole trial was full of the notion that the sexual proclivities of the victim should somehow alleviate the guilt of the accused, as if in some way the vice of one rubbed off as virtue on the other. He was outraged by the statement and the summing up of one of the Defense lawyers who had said that even if they went to Hagley Park to look for homosexuals, there was no offense in this; the youths charged had probably learned a sound lesson. The case is a tragic one: by which he meant, of course, a tragedy not for the victim but for the accused. There was an absence of comment in left-wing journals and so on, and the only major periodical to comment was The Listener, which both editorialized and published letters on the case. The editorial in The Listener, by Monty Holcroft, is interesting. He was not particularly concerned about the fate of Aberhart, per se. He even made a gesture toward those who favored the acquittal, remarking, " Some indeed might believe it was better for all the accused to go free than to risk unjust punishment for one or two who were only technically guilty." However, there would not have been a way of making a verdict of that kind, probably, at that time. But he also stated that Aberhart deserved compassion, not because his human rights had been infringed or even because he was dead, but because he was sick and we shouldn't treat sick people in this way. However, this is 1964, and it would be a further decade before the American Psychological Association removed homosexuality from its list of pathologies. So in 1964 describing a homosexual as sick rather than as morally evil was quite a radical statement. Although The Listener was prepared to say that Aberhart was therefore no more deserving of death than anybody else, it really didn't go any further than that. Interestingly, however, this case was very important in terms of the legal subcommittee of the Dorian Society, which then, in the subsequent years from 1964 through until 1967, formed the New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society, and one of the strongest motivations for forming this society was, in fact, thinking about the Hagley Park killing, because homosexual people who didn't call themselves gay at that stage, and women didn't call themselves lesbians, either, were outraged that this could happen – that here somebody could be killed and people admit that they'd killed him, and yet nothing happened as a consequence of that case. So a good thing came out of that in the formation of The Homosexual Law Reform Society. And a number of heterosexual people were prepared to be vice presidents of that Society, formed on the model of the British Society, because they also felt that this was a matter of justice. So in that sense Aberhart didn't die for no good cause. A tragedy for him, but he was martyred, perhaps, in the cause of what became gradually a greater and greater momentum toward legislative reform and an increasing awareness, even despite the very lukewarm responses of the media, but an increasing awareness among the public that this really wasn't the kind of thing that we should be seeing in New Zealand. So that is the Hagley Park killing – a very important event in the history of homosexuality in New Zealand. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 243
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_parker_hulme_murder.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004068
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089362
TITLE: Parker and Hulme murder case
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1950s; Alison Laurie; Christchurch; Gay Line Wellington Trust; Heavenly Creatures (1994); Juliet Hulme; Pauline Parker; Peter Jackson; Queer History 101; Rule Foundation; courts; crime; law; transcript online
DATE: 12 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison talks about the Parker and Hulme murder case from 1954, where the two teenage friends murdered Parker's mother.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Hi, I'm Dr Alison Laurie. I was the Gender and Women's Studies Programme Director at Victoria University of Wellington, here in New Zealand, for many years. I'm a writer, oral historian and lesbian and gay activist. Today I'm going to be looking at the Parker and Hulme murder case of 1954, and the reason I'm going to be looking at that is because it's one of the first times that a discussion of lesbian relationships takes place in the New Zealand media, and it takes place in a very negative context of murder and of young girls out of control, and it has a big impact on how that generation of lesbians and their parents and their schools began to think about relationships between girls and women. Now, it's not the first time that lesbian relationships are mentioned in the media. There's another case which happens in the '30s, which is the Freda Stark case and Thelma Mareo. There's also been other mentions of women leading rebellious lives, especially women who have cross-dressed, masqueraded as men – the famous case of Amy Bock, and other cases, too. But this case is one happening in the post-war period, and it's been brought to great attention because a film was made about it after my colleague and I had published our book on it, and that's a film by Peter Jackson, Heavenly Creatures. And as well as that there have been a lot of mentions in the media regularly. As well as that, one of the girls, Juliet Hulme, her identity was revealed after the film was released and she is Anne Perry, the crime writer, and she has now made a film or appeared in a film where she has talked a bit about this case and other matters, too, in relation particularly to her writing. So, what happens in this case is that Juliet Hulme, who is the daughter of Hilda and Henry Hulme who come to New Zealand, is actually sent here first. They come to New Zealand. He comes to take up the position as Rector, which today would be the Vice Chancellor, of Canterbury University College, which today is Canterbury University. They were colleges, at that time, within the University of New Zealand. And prior to then they'd had a professor taking the role of Rector and rotating it. It was then decided, in the post-war period, that they needed to have somebody doing that job full-time. So Henry Hulme applied for that job and came out here. He seemed to have very good qualifications, but as our research showed, actually his career had been the opposite of what you might expect. When other university scientists had gone to work for the government during the period of the war, that was when he'd been working in the university. He then went to work for the government when they returned to university work, so his career hadn't been as good as perhaps might have been hoped. When he got to Canterbury he hadn't been there long before the professors actually were not too pleased with the way he was turning out. He was quite arrogant, he didn't want to take their advice when he met on the University Senate, and often voted against things that they wanted; for example they wanted a School of Forestry established at Canterbury, and he voted against that because in his opinion it shouldn't be there. Hilda Hulme was also not particularly popular. She was one of the founders of Marriage Guidance and she was on the Board of the Christchurch Girls' High School, but she was the sort of woman who they called a man's woman. She was often quite dismissive of other women and not a popular person either. So they were very English people, very upper-class English people in Christchurch, which was quite a small city at that time, and they weren't particularly popular. And then we have Pauline Parker. She was the daughter of Herbert Rieper, who was a fishmonger, and Honora Parker, who was also an English migrant, and these are both working-class people. Herbert had been previously married to a woman older than him, and he had two sons in that marriage, and he then ran off with Honora and they went to Christchurch and pretended to be married and then had another family. In the other family there were oddities about it. The first child was a blue baby and died in the first 24 hours after birth because of a blood condition. Then the next child was a normal child, and then there's Pauline, who is a daughter but has this strange injury, which is never explained, which gives her osteomyelitis of her leg, and she has that injury in the first two years of life, never properly explained how she got it. And then 10 years later they have another child, a Down's Syndrome child called Rosemary, who lives at home for a couple of years and then is in an institution. So they come from two very different backgrounds, Pauline and Juliet. They meet at Christchurch Girls' High School in 1953 and form a very close friendship – a friendship that's so close that it's remarked upon by the teachers. It's considered perhaps to be an unhealthy friendship. And the different class backgrounds of the two girls are quite significant in this regard: that Pauline likes to go and stay with Juliet in what basically is almost like a mansion, which was the residence of the Rector, with extensive grounds there at Ilam. These days that's the University Staff Club. And meanwhile, Pauline just lives over the fence from the high school in a very modest home where her mother takes in boarders. And Pauline does a lot of housework. Her diaries, which have been depicted as terrible, terrible documents, but which, in fact, are full of very ordinary kinds of references, particularly to housework. And you wonder why she's doing so much housework until you realize that the mother takes in four boarders on full board, and that this girl is the one that's being required to do all this kind of work. So clearly it's not a very good home background and clearly there's a difficult relationship between Pauline and her mother. Then the Hulme's marriage breaks up. Hilda Hulme begins an affair with a man that she's counseled, Walter Perry, and she actually moves him into the mansion and this whole thing falls to pieces and they're going to divorce. So, the Hulmes are leaving the country. In fact the professors had by this stage forced Henry to resign because it really hasn't worked out – this is by the stage 1954. His appointment hasn't worked out and they want him to go, so he's been forced to resign. He's returning to England. The two children, Juliet and her brother Jonathan, are going to be sailing off to South Africa where they are going to be living with an aunt, and meanwhile Hilda is going to be going off with Walter Perry. So, that's what they were all doing. According to Pauline's diaries there are various conversations that take place: that she might be able to go with Juliet; that somehow she could become part of this family. It's pretty unrealistic. Then Pauline begins to see the big obstacle to her being able to be with Juliet as her mother, and so she plans a murder. They take the mother, they take Honora Parker, for a walk in Victoria Park in Christchurch. Pauline batters her with a brick in a stocking. Initially there is a number of statements that the two girls make, but eventually they both take responsibility for having participated in this. They're both charged with murder of the first-degree. They're both found guilty, they serve five years in prison at Her Majesty's pleasure, they are released in 1959, Juliet leaves the country immediately and goes to England, and Pauline is on probation for another five years, after which she also leaves. They both are given new identities by the Justice Department. They're both given educational opportunities in prison because there's a very liberal prison regime at that time, and a justice system which seeks to rehabilitate them. However, this crime is depicted, whether or not they are actually having a lesbian relationship, and what we might mean by lesbian relationship is unclear, but certainly it's the way that both the Defense and the Prosecution portray the relationship. The Defense says they're crazy and they've got a joint insanity known as folie à deux. One of the symptoms of this is lesbianism. When we interviewed the Defense counsel, Brian McClelland, he said, " Well, the problem was they'd both confessed to it, and the only defense we had was insanity, but how could we find the two of them insane? And then this chap, Reginald Medlicott comes along with this wonderful idea that they could have folie à deux, so we went with that." So, that's a cynical Defense lawyer using that kind of theory. So, that was what was argued there. Meanwhile the Prosecution psychiatrist said no, they're not mad they're bad. " They're dirty minded little girls" was one of the quotes that they said. The diaries were extensively quoted from, from both sides, to either prove that they were mad or that they were bad. What isn't really considered is that this is a domestic murder. It comes out of what is clearly quite a dysfunctional household. It comes out of what is clearly a very difficult relationship between Pauline and her mother. That is not explored in the context of the Court at all. It might well be the case that Juliet in fact blundered into somebody else's domestic murder, which might well have happened with or without her. She might, in fact, not have participated as fully in this situation as she confessed to having done. In fact maybe she should have been charged as an accessory after the fact. None of those kinds of much more interesting legal questions have ever been raised in any discussions, newspaper articles or in things about this case. The Heavenly Creatures movie claims to be based on the diaries. It's largely a matter of invention by Peter Jackson and his partner Fran Walsh. It's a dramatization which Reginald Medlicott would particularly have liked because it depicts them particularly poorly and as having fantasies and plasticine figures that she sees moving around. None of that is there any evidence whatsoever for, and in fact the verdict of the Court was that they were completely sane, which is why they found them guilty. They were lucky to be found guilty because had they been found insane, not guilty, they would have probably spent the rest of their lives incarcerated in a psychiatric hospital and probably at that time, since the psychiatric institutions were very keen to give our greatest novelist, Janet Frame, a pre-frontal lobotomy which she only escaped because she won a prize for literature, these two girls would probably have been given that kind of surgery or lots of shock treatment anyway. It was much better for them in the prison system where an enlightened regime gave them the opportunities to continue their lives. So we will have to say that most of what has been written about this case has been very simplistic, hasn't really looked at the more interesting aspects of it at all. In our work we were interested in the impact of the case and we found that it had very negative effect on many girls. Many girls became very frightened to have their relationships. Parents separated girls. In fact one woman we talked to, her mother sent her to a psychiatrist. Older lesbian couples were also affected by this. People were very afraid that if they had a lesbian relationship perhaps that meant they were mad. It certainly had a very bad effect on how lesbians thought about themselves, whether or not women were willing to have same-sex relationships and certainly how other people thought about lesbians and women in same-sex relationships. So it has been a very important case in the history of lesbianism in New Zealand. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 241
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_frances_hodgkins.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004058
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089352
TITLE: Frances Hodgkins
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1860s; Alison Laurie; Dunedin; Frances Hodgkins; Gay Line Wellington Trust; Queer History 101; Rule Foundation; arts; lesbian; transcript online; visual arts
DATE: 11 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison talks about the New Zealand painter Frances Hodgkins.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Hi, I'm Dr Alison Laurie. I was the Gender and Women's Studies Programme Director at Victoria University of Wellington, here in New Zealand, for many years. I'm a writer, oral historian and lesbian and gay activist. Today I'm going to be looking at Frances Mary Hodgkins, a famous New Zealand woman painter. And I'm going to be considering her painting and her life in the context of her close friendships with women and support that she received from men whom we know were homosexual. And what's interesting about this is the degree to which, in the period in which she lived, a woman living a conventional heterosexual life as a married woman would have been able to have the output of paintings that Hodgkins was able to do and to lead the kind of life she was able to lead and learn her craft the way in which she managed to achieve. She lived between 1869 and 1947. She was one of a number of expatriate New Zealanders during the early 20th century who lived in Britain or Europe where it was easier to find supportive friendship circles for their lives as artists or as people attracted to their own sex. I believe that the primacy of women in Hodgkins' life was very important, as also was the financial and emotional support given to her by her male homosexual, as well as her lesbian, friends, and that these people made her life possible. She was born in Dunedin on the 20th of April, 1869. Her mother was Rachel Hodgkins, and her father, lawyer and artist William Mathew Hodgkins. Frances had four brothers: William, Percy, Gilbert and Frank; and one sister, Isabel. She attended the Dunedin School of Art classes taught by Girolamo Pieri Nerli, who came to New Zealand and taught art here, and then she took pupils herself. And she had a number of close women friends in Dunedin at that time. She was also a member of a Dunedin women's club, the Kahanga Club. Her father died in 1898, and in 1901 she left for England where she soon became friends with the New Zealand artist Dorothy Kate Richmond, and they became very close friends and were very important to one another. Dorothy Kate Richmond, known as Dolla, was born in 1861, so she was a bit older, and she lived until 1935. The friendship probably started at Norman Garstin's art classes in Caudebec-en-Caux in France. This is where Frances, who was age 32, had left New Zealand, and Richmond, who was older, had resigned as art mistress at Nelson College for Girls to study in Paris. Their meeting had been initiated by Dolla Richmond who wrote to Frances, " I'm looking forward to meeting you with real joy. I think companionship doubles the pleasure and halves the sorrows of life." After being at Garstin's school they travelled together to Paris, Italy, and Tangier and London. Richmond had taken her rubber bath with her and a lot of other conveniences and they did quite a bit of travelling. Frances wrote to her mother Rachel, " The most delightful part is that Miss Richmond is coming with me." She also wrote, " I am a lucky beggar to have her as a travelling companion," and then she wrote, " Miss Richmond has decided not to go to England, so we shall not lose sight of each other even for a few weeks. I have grown so fond of her I don't know how I am ever going to let her go. She is one of these people whom you want always with you." She wrote to her friend Kate Rattray later that year that Miss Richmond was " the dearest woman, with the most beautiful face and expression I think I have ever seen." And she wrote to her sister that the other students called Miss Richmond " the divine lady." " When I am particularly down, Miss Richmond comes and tucks me up. She goes to England today. It is very sad saying goodbye to a face like hers, even for a short time. I wish you could see her at night with a black dress with a crimson fichu. I have insisted on her wearing it every night." Then, to her married sister Isabel she wrote, on the 6th of November, " Miss Richmond's letters are poems. She is the dearest piece of perfection I have ever met, and unlike most perfection, not in the least tiring to live up to. We were to have started for San Remo today, but I felt too seedy to travel. In cases like this we congratulate ourselves that we have no husbands to consider." Frances had a close relationship with her family and she wrote frequently. She could not have deleted all references to Richmond in her letters, and indeed writing about her travels with an older woman companion as chaperone could have reassured her family of the respectability of her life. The letters seem to be carefully constructed, with her natural delight and joy at having Richmond with her bursting through in these quoted extracts. On their return from Europe in 1902, after a joint exhibition in Newlyn, the two women lived together in Cornwall. Then, for the first time in over a year they would dwell sundered. Frances stayed in London with two other friends while Richmond went to Invernesshire, Scotland to see Constance Charlotte Astley, a woman who was 10 years older than her. She had met Constance in 1897 when she was visiting New Zealand with her friend, Margaret Sheehan, and had stayed with her before in 1900. Frances and Richmond had both stayed with Astley in 1901 at San Remo when Astley was being treated for tuberculosis. And Frances wrote to Dorothy from France in July, 1902, " I was indeed sorry to hear of the return of Miss Astley's trouble. It does not look as if Scotland was quite the best place for her, does it? Please give her my love and tell her I didn't in the least grudge you to her. At first I felt a little furious, but slept over it and calmed down. I don't see much of Maud Nickalls nowadays. She is very much taken up with Miss Crompton and they paint and ride a lot together." In this extract Frances seems jealous of Astley, but anxious to reassure Richmond that her own friendship with Maud Nickalls is not a love affair, as Nickalls is so involved with Crompton. But she could not resist informing her mother that " Miss Richmond is still in Scotland nursing her sick friend, Miss Astley. It is horrid without her." Then on 30th September, she wrote in some detail to her sister, " Miss Richmond and I go to London in a fortnight, and after that our ways be separate. I don't know what I'm going to do without her. We've taken a long time to consider what is best for us both. She has only another year and must make the most of it, and she feels she must get more studio work. So, Mr Garstin, with the knowledge full upon him that he was breaking up our happy home, conscientiously advised her to go back to Penzance. I'm sure it's for her own good, and she would be unselfish enough to give up her time to me and go wherever I wanted if we didn't put pressure on her and insist on her considering her own interest. So, I shall be alone once more." By 1903 Frances was in Tangier where she wrote to Richmond, " Of course I know that you would rather nurse one of her," Miss Astley's, " empty envelopes than read the outpourings of my innermost soul, however I mustn't expect too much." From these letters it seems that Frances was well aware of Richmond's love affair with Constance Astley, which seems to have gone on for three years between 1898 until 1901 when she became involved with Frances, and of its continuation at the time of writing. " Deciding on what was best for us both," could be interpreted as a typical triangular relationship in which nobody can quite decide how to resolve the impasse. In 1903, however, the two of them return to New Zealand together, and in 1904 through to 1906 they established a studio on the corner of Lambton Quay and Bowen Street in a disused carriage house, and they gave a joint exhibition in 1904 and they took in a few pupils, including Edith Kathleen Bendall who was Katherine Mansfield's lover in Wellington during 1906 – 1908, and other students. Also during this time Frances had announced her engagement to a man, Thomas Boughton Wilby, whom she'd met briefly on the ship coming back to New Zealand, but they became engaged by post and broke it off by post the year later, and they don't really seem to have had much of a relationship at all. Then Frances Hodgkins returns. She leaves Richmond and she leaves New Zealand in 1906, and although she does come back briefly in 1912 and stays for nearly a year, and sees Richmond during that period, it's unclear what their relationship would have been at that time. She determines to go back, and during her life living in Britain two of her most important friends were Dorothy Jane Saunders and Hannah Ritchie who were friends from Manchester. She had another close friend, Lucy Wertheim, who was a generous benefactor, also from Manchester. And these people helped her both financially and also to get various amounts of work. She made have had a relationship with any of these people; it's difficult to know. Toward the end of her life she has another very close woman friend, Amy Krauss, who lives in Dorset, and that's a very important friend to her as well. She also had very important male homosexual friends, in particular Arthur Lett Haines and Cedric Morris and she knew others in their homosexual circles – for example the writer Geoffrey Gorer and his friend Arthur Elton, and they're very important to her. They helped her for over 30 years and helped her during times when she was very poor. At the age of 63 she was found in her basement studio with the water and light turned off. She'd pawned everything and was lying in a bed covered in newspapers. Arthur Haines rescued her, motored her down to his mother's house in the country, fitted her up and set her to work. Morris, who'd become a leading painter of the post-war generation did what he could to help Frances Hodgkins become established as a painter. He arranged art exhibitions, proposed her membership in the influential Seven and Five Society, and helped her meet Saint George's Gallery director, Arthur Howell, who exhibited and sold her paintings. Later, McCormick, who was an important New Zealand biographer for her, helps to popularize her work in New Zealand. So, it's interesting, and it's interesting to compare her life with that of her sister, Isabel. Initially her sister had been thought to be the better painter, but her sister married, and she married William Field, who was a Member of Parliament. After that she never painted seriously, she just painted small scenes on the Kapiti Coast for sale and sold these and her husband used the money to buy more land and property, so she did not make the same kind of successful art career as Frances did, so it's an interesting comparison between them. Frances died in England and later her nephew brought her ashes back and she is buried in the Field family tomb at Waikanae with her sister, and her mother is also there. And that's quite a place of pilgrimage for those interested in Frances Hodgkins, who is indeed one of our greatest painters. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 239
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_human_rights_civil_unions.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004061
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089355
TITLE: Human rights and civil unions
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1980s; Alison Laurie; Brian Tamaki; Civil Union Act (2004); Destiny Church; Gay Line Wellington Trust; Human Rights Act (1993); Human Rights Commission; National Gay Rights Coalition; Queer History 101; Rule Foundation; Wellington Lesbian Centre; activism; civil unions; hate speech; homophobia; human rights; religion; transcript online
DATE: 11 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison talks about human rights and civil unions in New Zealand.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Hi, I'm Dr Alison Laurie. I was the Gender and Women's Studies Programme Director at Victoria University of Wellington, here in New Zealand, for many years. I'm a writer, oral historian and lesbian and gay activist. Today I'm going to be looking at human rights and how these apply to lesbian and gay, bisexual and others, and the inclusion of sexual orientation as a human right. This matter starts being discussed here in New Zealand with the original passage of the Human Rights Commission Act in 1977, which includes a number of areas where discrimination is outlawed. It's outlawed on the basis of sex, marital status, and so on. Now, human rights don't include everything. It's a question of prohibiting discrimination in specified areas: employment, housing and access to goods and services. What goods and services mean is often subject to interpretation. Clearly it would be being able to go to your public library or to go to the park, access to insurance and things of that kind, but it's often a matter of discussion as to what that actually means: access to goods and services. So, protection is not absolutely for everything. We don't have, in this country, legislation against hate speech, so people can express negative opinions about lesbians and gay men or about homosexuality. That is not covered by human rights. So, it's specified access. Human rights are not special rights, which is what anti-gay people have often tried to say: Oh, they're asking for special rights. These are not special rights. These are ordinary rights that everybody in the community should be entitled to have. The notion of human rights begins after the Second World War, spearheaded by people like Eleanor Roosevelt working within the framework of the United Nations, concerned about the things that happened during World War II where people were denied their human rights, Jewish people for example; that started with not being allowed to attend certain universities or all of that kind of thing. So, there's been a discussion about these matters since that time trying to ensure that everybody in a society is entitled to the same rights. A terrible example of that was apartheid in South Africa where black people were not allowed the same kinds of rights, even though the governments of that time tended to say that it was separate but equal, clearly it was not. So, this has been a matter of some discussion during the latter part of the 20th century. In this country the National Gay Rights Coalition, the NGRC, becomes active thinking about the extension of the Human Rights Act to include sexual orientation, and that begins to be discussed right from 1977. And they made submissions, unsuccessful submissions, to the Human Rights Commission. And for example in July, 1980, when the Wellington City Council refused to place a Lesbian Center advertisement on city buses a big campaign emerged. The sign that the lesbian center wanted to put on the buses was a simple sign that said: Lesbians – Contact your local community. Write to PO Box Whatever in Wellington. And the Wellington City Council refused to allow this advertisement to be put on the buses and said that that was very undesirable. In fact the town clerk, McCutcheon, claimed that a small boy might see it and ask his mother what a lesbian was, so that would be undesirable. So, this was a matter of some discussion. The Lesbian Center contacted the Human Rights Commission, which said it could do nothing about this, and then the Chief Commissioner, Downey, claimed that some sorts of discrimination should not be legislated against. A human rights campaign emerged, and that wanted to include sexual orientation in the Human Rights Act. So then a number of groups were fighting to achieve this, and the first measure of success was the introduction of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill, Part 2, which would have added sexual orientation to the Homosexual Law Reform Bill. And sexual orientation was defined as having a heterosexual, homosexual, lesbian or bisexual orientation. So in other words, any kind of sexual orientation within those areas is protected. During the campaign for this bill, although Part 1 of the bill, which decriminalized male homosexual acts, was passed eventually after a very hard-fought campaign, the MPs and the opponents of the bill fought just as hard against Part 2 of the bill, and in particular that you couldn't have protection for homosexual teachers, you shouldn't have protection for homosexual soldiers, for firemen and for all this kind of thing. And in the finish there were just going to be so many amendments that the lesbian and gay groups themselves thought that it would be far too dangerous to pass it with those amendments because that would look like permission to discriminate against people in those areas, especially for homosexual teachers. So, that was lost at that time. Then, eight years later the intention of Part 2 of the bill was reactivated when Katherine O'Regan, who was the National Member of Parliament for Raglan, Waipa, proposed amendments to add several new grounds to the Human Rights Commission Act of 1977 to include sexual orientation. And others of these grounds included the presence in the body of organisms which could cause disease, so that was to provide some protection for people who were HIV positive or had AIDS. And in July, 1993, the Human Rights Act was passed which prohibited discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, defined as homosexual, lesbian, bisexual or heterosexual orientation. So that was very important, and although there was a campaign against this it was not such a hard-fought campaign as many of the others. This act came into force on the 1st of February, 1994, and it applied immediately to the private sector, however government had various exemptions to give it time to bring laws and policy into line with the intention of the act. It was supposedly supposed to do that by the year 2000. Then the Human Rights Amendment Act of 2001 was passed. It came into force from the beginning of 2002 and that said that the government was no longer exempt from fully complying with the human rights provisions, because the government had been delaying on the implementation of this with a great deal of discussion happening through that decade. As a consequence of this the Civil Union Act of 2004 was able to be passed, which created legal partnerships for different and same-sex couples, with many of the provisions of marriage. Tim Barnett, an openly gay MP was someone who fought very strongly to get this legislation passed. However, it is the case that whatever government was in would necessarily, unless it had repealed aspects of the Human Rights Act of 1993 or the Human Rights Amendment Act of 2001, would have been obliged to pass something like the Civil Union Act because if you say that lesbians and gay men have access to the same goods and services this does imply marriage or partnership, and certainly when we come into questions like the provision of inheritance and all of those kinds of things, something like that would have had to be passed. There were a number of gay and lesbian individuals who were concerned that the civil union legislation provided for a second class kind of marriage. They would have liked to see actual marriage. There were other lesbians and gay men who in fact were opposed to civil union and opposed to marriage because they took a more radical view of partnerships and didn't see why sexual relationships should be privileged over other kinds of relationships. So there was a spectrum of different ideas even in the lesbian and gay communities. There was, however, tremendous opposition to this legislation, with Brian Tamaki from Destiny Church raising a lot of antagonism, having a big street march, protesting against it, and with large numbers of submissions which raised all kinds of questions about that. So this was actually a very hard-fought campaign as well, but it was passed, as was also the Relationships Statutory References Act of 2005, which provided for consistency for same-sex and de facto couples across a large range of existing laws which affect married couples, from trivial things like whether you can fix somebody's electrical wiring in their house, because you can do that for your marriage partner or civil union partner, but you can't go and do that for your neighbor. So, it's some rather trivial things, but very important things as well, including superannuation, benefits and inheritance. There were some losses in this as well. It meant that because it applies to de fact relationships as well, that particular act of 2005, it means that for a same-sex couple living together for more than two years the same provisions that apply to a married couple or a civil union couple will apply to them unless they've made a special statement before they began to live together opting out of that. So it means that common property will be a matter of consideration should they break up their relationship. And a difficulty also is that one person can't be working and the other person on an unemployment benefit. In the case of lesbians both people could not be on a domestic purposes benefit, so there are some losses like that as well. And for older lesbian and male couples it means that they would get a lesser rate of superannuation because it's based on the couple's rate rather than two single superannuations as you might have before. So there were some losses, but generally the gains are that you can inherit equally, that you are treated equally under the law, and so altogether, generally this has been supported by the various lesbian and gay communities in this country. Then in 2008 the Births, Deaths, Marriages and Relationships Registration Amendment Act of 2004 was amended to take account of the technological and social developments to allow lesbian mothers and their partners to both be reflected on birth certificates. So that's been an important addition as well, which starts to take account of the circumstances of people who have children and what might assist their family life. There is still a way to go. As far as the transgender community is concerned those protections have not been incorporated into law. Some legal opinions said that they thought they were covered by sex. There was an attempt to put forward a legislation benefitting this community by our first transgender member of Parliament, Georgina Beyer, but that didn't happen and there is still a way to go on legislative change so far as the addition of human rights for all of our communities are concerned. But we've come quite a way further than many other countries have done. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 237
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_law_reform.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004064
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089358
TITLE: Law reform in New Zealand
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1970s; Alison Laurie; Gay Liberation Front; Gay Line Wellington Trust; Gay Task Force; Heterosexuals Unafraid of Gays (HUG); Homosexual Law Reform Society; Human Rights Commission; Queer History 101; Rule Foundation; Wellington Gay Task Force; activism; gay liberation movement; hate speech; homophobia; homosexual law reform; human rights; politics; transcript online
DATE: 12 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison talks about homosexual law reform in New Zealand.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Hi, I'm Dr Alison Laurie. I was the Gender and Women's Studies Programme Director at Victoria University at Wellington, here in New Zealand, for many years. I'm a writer, oral historian and lesbian and gay activist. Today I'm going to be looking at Homosexual Law Reform in New Zealand and how this was achieved. The New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society was formed in 1967 and it was dedicated to urging a change in the law regarding male homosexual acts. The Society presented a petition to Parliament urging Homosexual Law Reform, signed by 75 prominent people, in 1968, and in 1974 the National Member of Parliament for Egmont, Venn Young, put forward a private members' bill intending to amend the Crimes Act of 1961, which proposed the decriminalization of private homosexual acts between consenting males over the age of 21 years. Following the proposed Wall Amendment by Labour Member of Parliament for Porirua, Gerald Wall, the bill was defeated because Gerald Wall put forward an amendment which, although it supported the decriminalization it sought to criminalize all public comment made to persons under 20 which implied that homosexuality was normal. So fortunately the bill was defeated at its Second Reading in 1975. And the lesbian and gay organizations which had formed as a result of gay liberation and lesbian feminism, from about 1972, very strongly campaigned against the bill because of that amendment. But that was the first attempt that came about trying to create legislative change. In 1977 something very important happened, which was that the National Gay Rights Coalition of New Zealand, the NGRC, which was an umbrella organization for lesbian and gay groups, formed, and that was a coalition of groups. At one stage there's something like 33 groups. The NGRC puts out a newspaper called The Pink Triangle, and it's hugely influential and is very committed not only to legal change but also into improving circumstances, creating social change and enabling lesbians and gay men to be out and to live their lives as they would like to do. The NGRC is very interested in the Human Rights Commission Act, which was passed in 1977, and it included several grounds on which discrimination against people were outlawed, but it didn't include sexual orientation, and that was something which the NGRC became very interested in and remained so for a number of years. It's interesting that in 1978, the year after the NGRC forms, they support Dr Ian Scott who stood in the Eden electorate, Auckland, as the Labour Party's first openly gay candidate. He wasn't successful. He's not the first person – openly gay candidate – standing for Parliament however, because as early as 1975 Robin Duff had stood in the General Election for the Values Party as the very first openly gay candidate. Neither of these candidates were, at that stage, successful. Now, in 1979 another Labour Member of Parliament, Warren Freer, proposed amendments to the Crimes Act and also trying to decriminalize male homosexual acts. He wanted an age of consent of 20 years, and this was immediately opposed by the National Gay Rights Coalition because of the unequal age of consent with heterosexual acts. So already we can see a great change in consciousness; that it's not enough to have decriminalization if it isn't equal. If heterosexual sex acts are legal at the age of 16, well, so should homosexual acts be. We can't have a situation of inequality; it sends a bad message to society. The more conservative groups within the NGRC are rather alarmed about this. Some of the men in the Dorian Society are concerned about it. They'd much rather see decriminalization at any age. But the British experience bothers people: that that went through with an unequal age of consent and there hasn't been any movement in it. So, the whole younger generation certainly do not want to see an unequal age of consent. Warren Freer proposed a new amendment in 1980 with an age of consent of 18, and that was again opposed by the NGRC, and it was dropped. And that certainly created a split in the NGRC which really starts to collapse after then because of conflicts. Many of the conservative groups really think that 18 would have been fine, and they start to talk about the " all or nothing brigade" who torpedo any kind of legislative reform. Then in 1983 Fran Wilde, who has just entered Parliament, she's the Labour Member of Parliament for Wellington, and she considers introducing a gender-neutral private members' bill decriminalizing male homosexual acts, and this is the so-called Equality Bill. She doesn't proceed because lesbians strongly oppose any such legislation on the grounds that if something went wrong with the age of consent then you'd end up with lesbians, perhaps between the ages of 18 and 20 or between whatever, finding themselves criminalized, and that it's too uncertain to consider that introducing a gender-neutral act would be any kind of a good idea because too many things could go wrong. What's interesting about that is that lesbian groups lobby other women members of Parliament who immediately see that that would be a foolish idea, so they lobby Fran Wilde and that's dropped. Once again, this campaign does create ill feeling between men, particularly gay men in Auckland who thought this would be a good idea and the more radical gay men in Wellington who support the lesbian groups in thinking that that isn't the way to go. However, in 1984 Fran Wilde begins to have discussions with Gay Task Force members in Wellington to discuss what kind of act would be acceptable, would get a wide support for it, and there's a good deal of input into what this kind of bill ought to look like. The Auckland Gay Task Force and the Christchurch Gay Task Force are formed in November, 1984, and they too begin to have discussions with Fran Wilde. Now, the election of the fourth Labour Government in 1984, which is when Fran Wilde comes to Parliament, brought about the establishment of the Ministry of Women's Affairs. And prior to setting up this new ministry, the government had held women's forums throughout the country which lesbians attended, and many women were alarmed by the presence of busloads of Christian fundamentalist women who carried Bibles and copies of the National Anthem, and who voted against abortion, lesbian rights and also against ratifying the United Nations Convention on the elimination of the discrimination against women. Lesbians suggested to the Gay Task Force that fundamentalists might campaign against Homosexual Law Reform, but most of the men thought that organizing against abortion or women's equality didn't indicate that fundamentalists would necessarily campaign against homosexuality. And the Gay Task Force really was not particularly well organized at the time of the introduction of the bill. Greater effort had been put into the shape of the bill. It was going to be:Part I – To decriminalize all homosexual acts between consenting males in private, with anage of consent of 16 years; an equal age of consent. And also Part 2 – To add sexual orientation as an amendment to the Human RightsCommission Act. The bill was drawn up by Wellington Gay Task Force activist Ewen Painter at a community meeting with Fran Wilde, and it was based on various drafts by the Auckland and Wellington groups. Fran Wilde thought the bill would have a greater chance of success if strict secrecy was observed, and she didn't think the bill should be publicized. And she thought that it would just be a short Parliamentary campaign, perhaps of about three months, for what would be a private members' bill, and the Gay Task Force agreed to this. And in retrospect it's difficult to know whether more damage was done because of the lack of preparation and involvement of groups throughout the country, or whether, if there had been an early organization then news of the bill might have reached the opponents, which would have enabled them to campaign against it. In retrospect you can't really know that. Whatever, the introduction of the bill on the 8th of March, 1985, was carried by 51 to 24 votes. But opposition to it was immediately mobilized by various members of Parliament: Norm Jones, who was a National Member for Invercargill; Jeff Braybrooke, a Labour Member for Napier; Graham Lee, a National Member for Hauraki; and Allan Wallbank, Labour from Gisborne. Before the first week had ended these people had launched a nationwide petition against the bill with a fundamentalist Christian businessman, Sir Keith Hay, who claimed to be just a carpenter doing God's work, and Sir Peter Tait, from Napier, as chief petitioners. On March 20th the Salvation Army announced that it would take the petition door to door. And this petition against Homosexual Law Reform, and using very strong scare-mongering tactics, was circulated through schools, workplaces, prisons, rest homes and churches, with stands being set up in the streets. It eventually claimed 835,000 signatures against the bill were collected, and the petition was presented to Parliament on the 24th of September, 1985. And the campaign was really a very difficult one. It was very necessary. The Gay Task Force and various gay and lesbian organizations fought very hard. We were starting late to get the organization going. We organized street marches, we organized protests, in town halls we attended meetings of those against the bill, and so forth. We held pickets outside the Salvation Army. We tried to create a campaign which created a lot of laughter because we felt that the situation was so stressful that unless you introduced certain laughter and things of that sort into it, light-hearted things such as, for example, taking balloons on the marches and doing a lot of singing and making a lot of jokes, that unless you did that you could actually be getting into a situation where street violence could have occurred, there might have been some bad clashes. And certainly I think that that's a good model if you have that kind of opposition that are really nasty, very serious, and it gets to that kind of point. You have to be very careful as to how you determine what tactics you'll use against them because if you get a mob against you you're going to lose, so the best way is if you can mock your protagonists. And of course we have in our communities, in our lesbian and gay communities, a strong tradition of humor, as have many other oppressed communities. The Jewish community, for example, have always used humor. So, humor is one of the best tactics. We had a lot of comical songs that we sang: things about ripping up petitions and that sort of thing. And in many respects, a lot of those actions made people feel better about themselves. It was very good morally for our own communities. Some people were getting very depressed, especially if some gay and lesbian people had, themselves, signed the petition because they didn't have an alternative when it was brought into their workplace unless they wanted to immediately come out. When the suggestion is: Oh well, unless you're a poofter, you know, you'll sign this. So people did sign and then felt terrible about it. There were suicides; people were depressed, so it was good to have a campaign which raised people's morale as well as actually creating a better kind of public opinion. That won a lot of public support. And the other thing that was important were the mistakes made by the people against the bill, and that was that they brought in American advisors against the bill and they had something that looked a bit like the Nuremberg Rally at Parliament, where they carried the petition up in boxes and they all sang the National Anthem, and they'd actually brought John Swan and various people like this and paid them a lot of money to come from the United States and advise them to do this. And the average New Zealander, when they saw this happening on their television screens thought: God! We don't want anything to do with this. It looks like the Nuremberg Rally. So that worked very much against them, which worked in our favor. The bill was considered by the Statutes Revision Committee, which received a lot of submissions, nearly 1,000 submissions, and by October, 1985, it reported back and the Second Reading of the bill began, starting from March, 1986, and it was eventually passed. Part 2 of the bill was lost, which was the human rights part, and that was good that it was lost because so many amendments had been put forward to that that it would apply except for the police, except for teachers, and so on, that it wasn't worth having. So, the good thing was that Part 1 of the bill was passed through all of its stages. The Third Reading was on the 9th of July, 1986, and finally on that date the Homosexual Law Reform Bill, Part 1, decriminalizing male homosexuality with an age of consent of 16, was passed by 49 to 44 votes. And almost all the National Members of Parliament voted against the bill, with an exception of George Gair who disagreed with the age of consent of 16 but said he thought change was inevitable, and he voted for the bill. And on the 11th of July, the Homosexual Law Reform Act, 1986, was signed into law by the Governor General and it came into effect on the 8th of August, which ended all those years of the criminalization of male homosexual acts in Aotearoa / New Zealand. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 233
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_early_groups.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004057
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089351
TITLE: Early lesbian and gay groups
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1960s; Alison Laurie; Auckland; Gay Line Wellington Trust; Queer History 101; Rule Foundation; Wellington; gay; lesbian; organisation; social; transcript online; venues
DATE: 11 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison talks about early lesbian and gay groups in New Zealand.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Hi, I'm Dr Alison Laurie. I was the Gender and Women's Studies Programme Director at Victoria University at Wellington, here in New Zealand, for many years. I'm a writer, an oral historian and a lesbian and gay activist. Today I'm going to be looking at lesbian and gay organizing in New Zealand, and early law reform attempts. I want to start off by thinking about the first, that we know of, kinds of lesbian or gay organizations or organizing that started in Europe and where possibly some New Zealanders may have been connected to these organizations. New Zealand was never isolated. Boats came here all the time bringing information from especially England. People received newspapers and magazines, they got books. When boats came it was very important. So this country has never been isolated. It's never not known what was going on elsewhere. Magnus Hirschfeld appears to be one of the first people to start formally organizing in Germany. This was tremendously important, and of course there were some groups and books and substantial ideas happening earlier than that, but it's really his Scientific Humanitarian Committee, which was founded in 1897 in Berlin, which is the most influential. Hirschfeld edited the Yearbooks for Sexual Intermediaries, and in 1919 he founded the Institute for Sexual Science. Also in 1897 an Englishman, George Ives, established the Order of Chaeronea, which was a secret homosexual society initiated in England that became a worldwide organization. The British Society for the Study of Sex Psychology was founded in 1914 by George Ives, Edward Carpenter, Hirschfeld and others. This was later affiliated to the World League for Sexual Reform, which was initiated in 1928. And there were various other formal organizations throughout Europe, most of which produced publications, as well as many homosexual bars and clubs for both men and women. And it seems very likely that some New Zealanders were members of these organizations, and it's very likely that those who travelled to Europe, and many people did, not just wealthy middle-class people but working class people who worked on ships, did other kinds of jobs overseas, that these people would know the social venues and may have known of these organizations and of the various ideas that the organizations discussed and published. Certainly it's known that some New Zealanders had connections with Edward Carpenter. He published some very influential books in the early part of the century, " The Intermediate Sex," and we know that people who were friends of his came to New Zealand and there are connections with Carpenter. We know that with the women's movement of the time that there were very strong links between the various women's movements and New Zealand, of course, the first country in the world where women got the vote, from 1893. And there were strong links, women travelling to and fro, and certainly even in those times there were strong same-sexual, whether we call this lesbian or not, friendships between women. So there's plenty of opportunity for the interchange of ideas. All of that organizing in Europe comes to an end when the Nazis come to power. It finishes in Germany itself in 1933 as the Nazis are voted into power, and as they advance through Europe occupying the various countries one of the first things that happens is the destruction of lesbian and gay social venues, magazines and certainly of those organizations. One of the most famous pieces of film shows storm troopers throwing books onto a bonfire, and that is outside the Institute for Sexual Science, Hirschfeld's institute in Berlin. The books that are being burnt were the records and books about homosexuality and transgender matters. They were all being burnt. The burning of books: usually when we see those scenes as part of documentaries, we're not told exactly whose books they were. Hirschfeld himself escaped because he was out of the country, but he died within two years. So, that's the destruction of everything. We move forward then to 1945 and we see the beginnings, again, of those organizations in Europe, and the big organizations are formed again. The only one that survived right through the war years is the Swiss organization, The Circle, Der Kreis. But the first one to start up again is the COC in Holland, which starts in 1946. Then the Scandinavian countries begin again from 1948 with organizations called The Organization of 1948. The organizations are set up by people who had known about the organizations before the war, but as time goes on the knowledge about a lot of those organizations is lost as younger people from the baby-boom generation come of age and begin flooding into those organizations and taking them over. Then a lot of the knowledge about what had gone before seems to get lost. It isn't until we get a generation of historians coming in from the 1970s that a lot of that information is available to us again. The other very important thing is that organizations, important organizations, are founded in the United States. That's one which is founded in Los Angeles, the Mattachine, which was founded by Harry Hay, who was a communist educator. He uses the strategy that he used for communist organizing to set up cells so that people in each cell don't know about anybody else, so if they're asked to give information to the police then they can't give much because they only know who's in their own cell. So this becomes very popular, and Mattachine starts branches in many parts of the United States, especially California, and when a conference is held there are some hundreds of people at it, and the first thing they do is expel Harry Hay because he's a communist, and the cold war is beginning so they don't want a commie running their organization. And then the next thing that happens is that Harry Hay is expelled from the Communist Party for moral turpitude. Hay goes on, of course, to become founder of the Radical Faeries and have a wonderful life as a gay activist, and has been so important to so many things in the United States. Lesbian organizations also begin: The Daughters of Bilitis begins in the late 1940s, also in the United States. And then as we move on into the 1960s we get lesbian organization beginning, the Minorities Research Group, founded by Esme Langley in London, and that's the first British one that's founded. So, what do these organizations want to do, both the lesbian ones and the early gay ones? In fact, in this country it's not appropriate to call them gay because that word isn't known here. What is it they want to do? One of the important things they want to do is to reform the law. They also are slightly beginning to talk about human rights, but not in any great detail at this stage. Really, they just want some basic kind of acceptance, and they also want to provide situations and ways that people who are interested in relationships with their own sex can meet together, have a nice social life, support one another and so on. As I've said, it's unclear how many New Zealanders would have been involved in the pre World War II organizations, and so far as we know there were not any attempts to form organizations in New Zealand prior to that time. We do know that there would have been places that men and women met: theater groups for example, music groups, through church groups. Certainly women would have had opportunities to meet through the many different women's organizations. And we have to remember that in an earlier time you might have needed to explain to your family how come you knew people: who are these new friends? So, it would have been useful to have met them through a gardening club, a theater club, a church group or something of that sort. So people would have been quite active in those kinds of networks. We certainly know that there were other kinds of social networks through sporting clubs. And we know that for men, men would have been starting to meet in pubs, meeting one another there, perhaps in parks, perhaps in public toilets, those kinds of ways that were not necessarily available to women because women still, at that time, couldn't really have too much of a public life, wandering the streets on their own in ways that men could. So, there are definitely differences between what's available for men and what's available for women. Now, in 1961 we get the first, that we know of, formal organization, and that's the Dorian Society, which is founded by men, all of whom have had experience in other countries. In particular, Jack Goodwin, he's lived overseas, he's had experience there, he knows about what's possible in other countries. Claude Tanner. These are some of the names of the people who were involved in that. They start the club and within a year or so they form the legal subcommittee, which begins to talk about changing the law, decriminalizing same-sexual activity in New Zealand. Women are not welcome as members of the Dorian; it is an organization for men. But what happens next is that the Homosexual Law Reform Society gets formed here. It's an outcome of the legal subcommittee of the Dorian, and this organization, many people join it. In fact, it's formed on the model of the Homosexual Law Reform Society in Britain so that it has patrons who are not homosexuals themselves, important people in the church and so on, and these are the vice presidents. And then it has a committee of men and women who do the work, and it encourages all sorts of people to join, not only lesbians and gay men but heterosexual people as well. It's important to say at this point that the terminology that people would have used, still at this stage, to refer to themselves in New Zealand, was kamp, generally spelled with a K, with jokes often made about kamping in tents or this kind of kamping. And both men and women referred to themselves in this way. Gay was a word used in the United States. It seems to have been introduced here toward the late 1960s, early 1970s. Lesbian was a term that was known, but no women would have wanted to call themselves lesbians; it would have been thought of as quite a shocking word. So, that starts after the introduction of lesbian and gay liberation and lesbian feminism. So, it's first from this point, with the formation of Homosexual Law Reform Society, that we get discussions about how the law might be changed, and ideas about seeing if there are any politicians who might be interested in looking at law reform, if there are ways in which that could be discussed on a Parliamentary level. And in my next talk I'll talk about the kinds of reforms that were suggested and how we moved through to actually change the law. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 234
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_gay_liberation.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004059
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089353
TITLE: Gay Liberation
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: 1970s; Alison Laurie; Gay Liberation Front; Gay Line Wellington Trust; Queer History 101; Rule Foundation; activism; gay liberation movement; homosexual law reform; human rights; politics; transcript online
DATE: 11 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison talks about the Gay Liberation movement in New Zealand.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Hi, I'm Dr Alison Laurie. I was the Gender and Women's Studies Programme Director at Victoria University at Wellington, here in New Zealand, for many years. I'm a writer, oral historian and a lesbian and gay activist. Today I'm going to be looking at gay liberation in New Zealand, and what changes that made here in respect to legislative changes and social changes. The homosexual organizations which emerged in the post-war period were still largely on the model of organizations that had been developed earlier. They were interested in legal change, they were interested in providing some kinds of social opportunities for people, and they did want greater acceptance, but they didn't really have an analysis of the society or they never spoke about actually radically changing society. That was something which came with the new baby-boom generation. And when we speak about the baby-boom generation I think we should include people who were born from about 1940; people who were born during the war who don't have any experience of an earlier decade, and so they grow up in that period after World War II. And after 1945 there's a great many of them as the soldiers return, through until about 1955. That might be said to be the end of the period during which the baby-boom generation are being born. New Zealand is very involved in World War II, as it has been in World War I. A large number of men, and some women, were sent overseas to fight on various fronts, particularly in Europe and also in the South Pacific. So, the experience for New Zealanders during World War II is that the men are away, and they're being severely damaged, not just physically in terms of being killed or being maimed, but they're being damaged psychologically because of the sorts of experiences they're having in very dreadful battles in many places. Meanwhile, back in New Zealand the women are managing their own affairs, doing the kinds of jobs that men did do before they went away, and just getting on with it. When the generation returns in 1945 there are many difficulties for people getting together – even married people. A stranger comes into the house. Perhaps there are children that were born before he went away, or perhaps there are children that have been born while he's been away, which is more complicated; whatever, it's a difficult domestic situation. New Zealand had been through that once before in the aftermath of World War I, so this time they made several attempts to try to get things onto a more even keel. So, there was assistance for soldiers returning, there were state houses available for people, there were many kinds of social reforms which were intended to get domestic life back on an even keel and help people settle down in the aftermath of that terrible war. What this meant was that the children being born after the war, or who were growing up after the war, were a generation who were especially privileged. I'm of that generation myself. We got free dental care through dental nurses in the dental clinics, we got free medical care, we got free milk in schools and apples, we got free education right through from kindergarten right through primary school, secondary school and tertiary education, too. So we learned to think of ourselves as important people for whom the war had been fought. It had been fought to give us a future; that's why they'd all been out there doing it. So, that makes some difference too, that this generation sees itself as having a special sense of entitlement. What also changes is that there are better communications. We've got a great interest now in radio because American soldiers had been stationed here during World War II, and they brought with them an appreciation, a particular appreciation, of American pop music. And more records are being produced. All of these kinds of things are coming in, so there's a lot of new impulses. Also, travel has become cheaper so more people are travelling. Many more ideas are starting to come into the country. By the time we get into the 1960s, many people, the younger generation, are becoming familiar with trends in overseas music which have very different kinds of quite rebellious messages. In particular, rock and roll, which has a great following, it's popular throughout the world, makes a big impact here. Within a short space of time we've got our own rock and roll bands and the messages are coming out of that. Then there are messages from groups like The Beatles, and then you get all kinds of messages coming from the United States with people like Bob Dylan with songs like " The Times They Are A-Changing," the kinds of folk music which brings really radical and interesting kinds of messages. Among films you get films like " Rebel Without a Cause," James Dean, coming earlier in that decade, promoting other kinds of ideas and certainly a feeling that things can be changed. There's also, in the aftermath of World War II, set up by Eleanor Roosevelt and others, a commitment to human rights, a commitment to the fact that there are such things as human rights, and people are not going to be treated in that terrible way again, as we had seen in World War II with the genocide, the killing of Jews, the mass murder, that those kinds of things are not going to happen. So, this generation grows up with that kind of knowledge, and within a short space of time you start to get movements like flower power, the new left, make love not war, and then you get very strong movement, anti-war movement, particularly against the increasing war in Viet Nam, and the organization of young people. And there's a big population of young people. It's a big generation. And this bulge generation has actually made a big difference as it's moved through the decades. It starts to make itself felt in the 1960s. So, ideas about women's liberation and gay liberation can't be seen in isolation. They are very definitely part of this whole movement which starts, really, with black civil rights in the United States, moves on to ideas about women's liberation because women who are involved in the civil rights struggle see themselves as being treated actually really badly, so begin to prioritize their own circumstance. This is also true of gay people in the United States being involved in those movements, suddenly starting to think: But hey, what about us? And what happens then, in 1969, is homosexual men and women at the Stonewall Inn in New York riot against the police raiding the bar, and this is said to be the beginnings of gay liberation. Of course, as Harry Hay has said, that wonderful originator of much gay activism in the United States, he said through the 1950s and the 1960s we laid a powder trail which could be lit at the Stonewall Inn in 1969. So, it does build upon the earlier organizing, and we shouldn't think these things come out of nowhere. But certainly there's a different mood afoot, and the mood is that social change is possible. And it's also another way. As gay liberation starts to form, within a very short space of time the slogans are, " We're here to bring out the lesbian and gay man in everybody's head," and " Gay is Good, Gay is Proud," and a big chant of people, " We are innocent! We are innocent!" which was very important because people had been, up until then, inclined to think of themselves really as bad people, that they really were doing something wrong. But now people of that generation are saying: We are innocent. We haven't done anything wrong. And so things begin to change. Now, gay liberation is introduced into New Zealand in 1972. A Maori lesbian activist, Ngahuia Te Awekotuku, is refused a visa to the United States because she is known as a homosexual, so a meeting is called at Auckland University, and that's the beginnings of gay liberation. Within just a few hours there's a gay liberation branch started there. And within the next months the gay liberation branches start right throughout the country in Wellington, Christchurch, Dunedin, and Palmerston North and other smaller provincial centers, and it just goes like wildfire and is very influenced by these new ideas from the United States and things that are happening in Europe. Communications are much better, you can find out very quickly about things that are happening. It's still all pre the Internet or anything like that, so it's not that fast, but the ideas spread very quickly. The ideas of gay liberation are that homosexuals are not asking for acceptance. In fact, the criticism now is of heterosexuality. Something is really wrong with heterosexuality. It's not an equal relationship. Why are men and women getting together when they clearly have so little in common? And of course this generation has observed that in their own houses, these great difficulties in that generation coming back from war: silent, damaged men; women who really resented this man coming back and taking over; a good deal of separation between men and women clearly having difficulty working out those heterosexual relationships. So this generation of homosexuals are saying: What's so good about heterosexuality? We don't want to get involved in that. Look at it! And at the same time we have women's liberation where the heterosexual women and women's liberation are trying to work out ways that heterosexual relationships could be better, could be made more equal. How could men change? Must women change? And meanwhile, in both of these organizations, something else very interesting happens because both in women's liberation, which starts in this country, the first Women's Liberation Front club forms in 1970 by students at Victoria University of Wellington, and from 1971 women's liberation starts throughout the country. And by about 1973 women in the women's liberation groups, lesbians in the women's liberation groups, are starting to feel that heterosexual feminists are discriminating against them. They're saying, " Oh, don't tell people you're a lesbian! Everyone will think we're lesbians." So lesbians are not feeling very happy about that. And lesbians working in gay liberation, as more men joined gay liberation, as happened elsewhere, and more conservative men get involved in gay liberation, lesbians in gay liberation groups start to feel that the men are being very sexist, that they're actually being asked to do washing up and make cups of coffee and the men are going to do interesting things like make speeches and determine policy. So they're not feeling very happy either. So, from these groups lesbians organize separately, and the first separately organized lesbian group is SHE, Sisters for Homophile Equality, known as SHE, and that starts firstly in Christchurch in 1973 and then with a branch in Wellington. No branch starts in Auckland. They still call themselves Gay Women's Liberation in Auckland, but they still separate from the men. So these groups form and are particularly influenced also by overseas theory, quote writers like Martha Shelley from the United States, which things like, " In a society where men oppress women, to be lesbian is a sign of mental health," because who would want to be in a relationship with someone who's oppressing you? That's not healthy. No one should be in a relationship like that. Or quoting writers like Jill Johnston, who was very influential with, " All women are lesbian except those who don't realize it yet," and ideas of that kind. The Sisters for Homophile Equality produced the first, that we know of, lesbian magazine in this country, which is known as Circle, and that's put out, the first issue of it, in December, 1973. And the first groups were certainly not separatist. The Circle was sold in the street. We would take it out and sell it in the streets, and we'd sell it to men as well. We'd say: Do you live with a woman or have you got any women friends? Buy this and give it to them. And the magazine was reproducing actually quite radical articles from elsewhere, but we thought at that point that a wide circulation would be very good. So these are the first kinds of groups, and these groups are certainly looking beyond simple decriminalization. They want to see a radical change in society, a change in gender relations, all kinds of reforms that will totally change society, and they see very strong connections between sexuality, race, class, ability, gender, all of these things. They see all of this as being interlinked. So these are the politics, really, of deconstructing all of the reasons that some people might be discriminated against in society. We should also remember that here, in Aotearoa / New Zealand, Maori, both men and women, have been very important participants and leaders within many of the social networks, especially in the cities, as well as in the countryside. And once again in the beginnings of these more radical groups we see Maori in the forefront of thinking about how these groups should be organized. How can things be done differently so that everybody gets an equal chance to fulfill themselves and to have the kinds of rights that they should have in society? So in my next talk I'll talk about how this does lead on to legislative change, and also to, which is perhaps even more important, the kinds of social changes which make it possible for everybody, whether they're in a same-sex relationship or not, to lead a fulfilled life without feeling all the time that they're going to be discriminated against or that they're not as good as other people. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 231
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_legal_background.html
ATL REF: OHDL-004065
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089359
TITLE: Legal background for LGBT communities
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: 
TAGS: Alison Laurie; Gay Line Wellington Trust; Queer History 101; Rule Foundation; activism; courts; gay liberation movement; history; human rights; politics; transcript online
DATE: 12 January 2011
YEAR: 2011
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison talks about the legal background for queer communities in New Zealand.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Hi, I'm Dr Alison Laurie. I was the Gender and Women's Studies Programme Director at Victoria University at Wellington, here in New Zealand, for many years. I'm a writer, an oral historian and a lesbian/gay activist. Today I'm going to be looking at the legal background relating to same-sexuality in Aotearoa / New Zealand, and considering many of the changes that happened through the years. I'd like to start off by thinking about the situation before European contact. Maori, the indigenous inhabitants of this country, came here some hundreds of years ago. There's various discussions about that: some people think it might have been 800 years ago, other people think it could have been 1,200 years ago, but whenever, Maori came in a series of canoes known as waka and settled in various parts of the country. Instances of same-sex relations in Maori culture are interesting. It certainly appears that there were not really restrictions against that kind of behavior. There were very strong restrictions in Maori culture about who could marry; those kinds of questions of genealogy and what would be appropriate there. So far as we know, and more research is being done on this topic by a number of prominent Maori scholars, and quite a bit has been written about it, relations between men or between women were reasonably well accepted in Maori society. Some of the scholars have gone back to look at what possible terminology may have been used, and in the very famous story of Hinemoa and Tutanekai, which is usually interpreted as being a heterosexual love story set in Rotorua, there's a reference in that story, which has been noted independently by several Maori scholars, to takatapui, a Maori word meaning intimate companion of the same sex, and Tutanekai had an intimate companion. He had his takatapui, Tiki, whom he was very, very close to. So that would imply that this was well accepted that you would have someone like that. Of course, it wouldn't mean that you didn't marry. Particularly if you were high-born, you would have a responsibility to provide children, heirs to carry on the bloodline. But what you might do with your own sex, because there couldn't be children from that, is probably not taken particularly seriously, or it's certainly not seen as a threat to any kind of social order. There are some early European records based on this. One source is a French source from Roux, who was a Frenchman on the ship The Mascarin in 1772, and he observed, " These natives are greatly given to embracing each other, but in their caresses they display a most noticeable ferocity. They're strangely fond of kissing each other, and this they do with great intensity. They never weary of admiring our skins, especially their whiteness. They sucked the flesh with an astonishing greediness." So, there are a number of reports like this from European observers, which clearly would show that this was not at all unusual. And there are other kinds of reports, particularly things in song, which suggest that through the 19th century there's plenty of this kind of activity going on. And we also know that some Europeans were involved with Maori. In particular, the Reverend William Yate, who worked for the Church Missionary Society in the Bay of Islands, and he was closely involved with a number of young Maori men. He was reprimanded by the church, and that has been written about to some extent, but he was not the only one. So, what we can assume from that is that before the coming of European law and European attitudes toward same-sexuality there was a much more open, much more natural attitude of simple acceptance of this among Maori. So, the first people to come were whalers, sealers; they came from various parts of Europe. And when we look at the mix of people coming into Southland, and many of those people married or at least set up some kind of family unions with local people, we now know that there would have been people – men, all men – from Holland, from Norway, from Denmark, Aboriginal men from Australia, Native American men from North America, a lot of groupings from the whole world, really, were coming in and were involved in these kinds of different activities. At the same time, a bit later, the missionaries began to come. The first ones were the French. They came in the north. Then came the Church of England. And by the time we get to about 1800 the Church Missionary Society is starting to get concerned about what it sees as lawlessness, a lot of Europeans who aren't under any kind of control, they seem to be breaking the law a lot, there's a lot of drunkenness and so on, so they begin to talk about the fact that it would be a good idea if this country, which now became known as New Zealand, if this country were to be brought into the British Empire as a colony. And so that was discussed for some time and eventually there was a treaty signed that's known as the Treaty of Waitangi, and that was signed in 1840, and it was signed between the British Crown, and at that time that was Queen Victoria, and many of the Maori tribes. Not all of them, but many of them. And probably, British law applies from this time. It's clear that the British weren't totally certain of this because in 1858 they passed a law which is known as the English Laws Act, which states that all laws in force on the 14th of January, 1840, apply to New Zealand. So they may have thought that there could be some difficulty in being quite certain that all these laws would apply here. So, once the law is applied these laws included prohibitions against crimes known as buggery or sodomy, that is to say sexual relations between males, for which the penalty was imprisonment from 10 years to life. And in fact, the death penalty for these acts had been abolished only in 1836 in England, so that's four years before the treaty. The British law against same-sexuality was in fact put into force in 1533 by Henry VIII when he took over the church, established the Church of England, and this is the first law on his books. And you might say: Well, what did Henry VIII have against sexual relations between men? And it seems likely that he had nothing against it, it was just a very useful law to charge into the monasteries, and on the pretext that they're committing a crime because they're having sex together, and of course everybody thought that's what monks and priests would be likely to be doing, then you could take over the monastery and confiscate all their property, and that was very enriching for the British throne. So, that law had been enforced right from then. So when we get to 1836 the death penalty is removed, so that's the first change in all those years, and it's this law then, from that time, that applies in New Zealand. And the Offenses Against the Person Act, 1867, that's the first New Zealand law which passed, actually here, which criminalizes buggery and it retains the punishment of imprisonment from 10 years to life. And then in 1893 the General Assembly passes the Criminal Code Act, which repeals that but retains the sections against buggery. Now, what's important about this is that this is based upon the English Law Crimes Act of 1885 which criminalized sex between men, for which consent was no defense, and it's any kind of sexual relations. And that's the law which Oscar Wilde was imprisoned for in England. So, this law is the one that then gets passed here, and that's the one that continues. There are no laws prohibiting sex between women, and you could take several views about that. One is that certainly for many centuries, because of sexist attitudes about men and women, it was thought that women couldn't really be having sex. Since women didn't have penises there's no way that women could penetrate one another, so sexual relations don't happen between women. That's one school of thought. Another school of thought is: Who cares what women and children do anyway, so long as you can control them economically? And certainly, the other law that came to New Zealand was the law regarding the position of women, which, based on an opinion in the late 18th century said that women were the property of their fathers, and on marriage the property of their husbands, so in a situation like that it doesn't really matter what women do. So, that's one thought about why the laws didn't apply to women. The other thought is that when the discussions were held in England in 1885, revising the law to make it apply in private and saying that consent was no defense, there was an attempt to criminalize lesbianism. It passed through the House of Commons but was rejected in the House of Lords by Lord Desart, who stood up and made a very stirring speech and said that mentioning lesbianism in the law would be to bring it to the attention of women who've never heard of it, never dreamed of it, never thought of it, and that would be a very grave mischief. So the idea there is that women are very suggestible, and that if you mentioned it in the law they might get the idea and then they might go and do it. So, that's the other opinion about why such a law was not passed here. In other parts of the world there was legislation against sex between women, especially in some of the states in the United States and other parts of Europe, so that wasn't a universal thought, but it wasn't criminalized in England and it wasn't criminalized here. So, after the late 19th century, we move on into the early 20th century. There's another Act in 1908 and that reaffirms the sections of the Criminal Code and the kinds of punishments that applied. Some of the punishments are pretty terrible. The 1893 Act punished buggery by life imprisonment, hard labor and flogging. And then it's not until 1941 that the punishment of flogging is removed from New Zealand law, retaining life imprisonment; that's the 1941 Crimes Amendment Act. And not until 1954 is the punishment of hard labor removed from the law, but it retains life imprisonment. Now, this country has followed what happened in Britain fairly closely, although we became a dominion in the early 20th century, meaning that we had local self-government; nonetheless we retained the British Crown and a certain kind of cultural cringe in terms of legislation and things of that kind. So, what was very important was the Wolfenden Report, which reported in 1957 to the British Parliament. The Wolfenden Committee was set up to look at prostitution and to look at homosexual behavior, and that committee recommended the decriminalization of prostitution, with some regulations around that, and it also recommended decriminalizing private, consenting homosexual behavior; and that's in 1957. So, that was known about here, and from then there are certain discussions about it but there's no real commitment to any kind of decriminalization. And although the Sexual Offenses Act of 1967 abolishes total prohibition of homosexual acts in England, with an age of consent of 20 years, that discussion is not really held here. However, in 1961 the Crimes Act reduces penalties for homosexual acts, but it introduces lesbianism into the law by criminalizing sexual relations between women over 21 and girls under 16. And you can say, well, that's fair enough because it's abuse of minors, but it's clearly a move that means that once you get some kind of recognition of lesbianism into the law then you can play around with how you interpret that by saying that consent is no defense, you can play around with those ages. And as we enter the 1960s we are entering a decade where the first people of the baby-boom generation born during the war are starting to come of age, and they're beginning to question many things. So the whole question of Homosexual Law Reform becomes part of those discussions as that decade continues. And I'll be talking about that later in another talk. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

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TITLE: Stephen Denekamp profile
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VOICES: Stephen Denekamp
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; Auckland; Rainbow Touchstones; Rainbow Youth; Stephen Denekamp; coming out; depression; family; gay; health; mental health; profile; transcript online; youth
DATE: 1 May 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Stephen talks depression and coming out.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Stephen Denekamp: I'm Stephen. I'm gay and I grew up in Auckland with three younger sisters. When I was young we went to church quite a lot, from about the age I was five, and so I always kind of had a lot of those values instilled in me as I was growing up. Some of them are really, really good values, like the whole thing around being fair and that stuff. But also, I don't know how you take it onboard, but they say that that age period is the imprint period, and so there was stuff around, for example, if there was something gay on TV my mother would do this shake of her head thing - the disapproving shake of the head that mothers do really well. And so I was just picking up those kinds of things, and I think I also picked up that there was right and there was wrong. There was that kind of whole church-type thing. Gareth: When your mother shook her head, did she shake it at any things other than gay people? Stephen: Probably. I don't remember specifically, I just do specifically remember that when there was something queer related on the news that there would be that kind of disapproving nod that I'd see. So I picked up that this was something that wasn't good, even though I didn't understand it at all. It was just not something that was allowed or appropriate. Gareth: And so how did you feel when you saw your mum do that nod? Stephen: At the time it didn't matter because I wasn't identifying as gay. I hadn't even probably gone through puberty at that stage. It was just taking it onboard that that thing was bad, which of course meant that when I realized I was gay I already had this association that I was something that was bad, or something that wasn't good. It wasn't until I was 13 that I kind of put two-and-two together that this word gay was something that I was, and that it was a really negative thing. So this one part of myself, this being gay, I really, really didn't like - l hated it - and I did what we always got told in school never to do, which was bottle up your feelings. And so I just tried to ignore that part of myself hoping that it would go away, and of course it didn't because it was an integral part of who I was, and so I just grew to hate it more and more and more. And what began to happen is that at some point, suddenly that hatred of that one thing turned into a hatred of everything about myself. I thought that it was me that was bad and evil and disgusting, and I thought that I shouldn't actually be here or shouldn't be alive. So I've got several years at high school where I'm just feeling crap about who I am. Gareth: Was there any other kind of contributing factors that made you feel bad about the word gay or about being gay? Stephen: I think, especially when you hit high school, there's the gay jokes that are said around, and even my group of really supportive friends would laugh at gay jokes. It's just kind of around everywhere, and I really started to notice that at that age, because I'm really quite hypersensitive to it, and it's all coming up in those teenage years. So it just kind of all compounded. And then it got to a point, after so many years of hating myself, where everything kind of ramped up, and then I started to have suicidal thoughts, I started to have dreams around dying or killing myself, and it just got really bad. I remember feeling quite sick at the time, because I guess it's not a place where any human should really be. And it was at that point that I finally told someone. It was a friend from school who I was just chatting with online, and he just did the normal: How's it going? And rather than doing the normal: I'm fine, I'm good, or just those whatever comments, I said, " I'm feeling crap." And he got really interested into what was wrong and started asking me all these questions, and for the first time I finally told someone that I was feeling crap, that I was depressed, and also I came out that I was gay. And he was really supportive, which is really cool, and he really encouraged me to go talk to some of my closest friends, and also to go see the school guidance counselor because he was really worried about the fact that I was so depressed and having suicidal thoughts. And so I did. I wrote a letter to my closest friend, because I just couldn't tell him, so I wrote it all fully out and handed it to him, and after he'd read it he said, " Do you feel better now?" And I was just so relieved. I think every friend I started to tell, it felt like a big weight coming off, because it was just the release of lots of pent-up emotion going out. And then my small group of friends that knew, they all very much pushed me to go see the guidance counselor, not because I was gay but because they were really worried about my mental state at the time around being suicidal. So I went to the school guidance counselor, and I remember I went into the office and sat down and she was like, " What do you want to chat about?" And I told her I've got depression, and she almost had this kind of, well okay, let's chat about it, and then almost like: I'll decide whether you've got depression or not. I don't know if she's had someone come in and say this is what I had. And so we talked about what was going on, and she was like, " Yeah, I agree, you do have depression." And I think for me, though, as great as that was to be sharing that, I was still getting worse. I think it was almost like Macbeth syndrome in that I was in so deep that to go back was just too much effort, I'd felt down for so long. Most people have good days with the occasional bad day. I had bad days with the occasional good day, and that was the difference. And then at one point I remember doing a speech in English and the topic was " Teenagers have never had it better," and because of how I was feeling I turned it around and said, " Teenagers have never had it worse," and partway through my speech I got a pair of scissors and I cut my arm in front of the class. It was actually written in the speech; I wrote it the night before. I don't know what I was thinking. Looking back on it now I can't imagine how someone could do that, but I think it was very much a cry for help. And as you can imagine, that freaked out the whole class when they started to realize that it wasn't just symbolic - it actually happened. And that got me sent to the guidance counselor again, of course, and she took that very, very serious, so she, with my parents, organized me to go see a psychiatrist to start really dealing with what was going on. So I started talking with the psychiatrist and she gave me a book around depression, which was really cool because it was the first time I was reading about what depression was, and that's when I started to really make that disconnect that depression is not who I am, it's something that I'm experiencing. And so that was really helpful. And also because I was down so bad, it felt like too much work to get any better, so they put me on antidepressants, which I was on for about 6 months to a year, and what they did was just picked me up enough so that I actually wanted to try, because to get better from where I was felt like a lot of work. And part of that process was also about finally coming out to my parents. So I told mum and dad, actually with the psychiatrist. I was so freaked out. It was the most nerve wracking thing I've ever done, and it was also a relief because the whole thing was this built-up secret that I had, and I just kind of let that go right then and there. And mum and dad were... Well, mum was not too happy about it because I think it really challenged a lot of her beliefs, as well. They both said, " You're our son; we still love you," but there was still the but-we-don't-want-you-to-be-gay type of atmosphere. My dad was more collected because he's a doctor, so I guess he kind of understood the mental health side of things. But at least it was out at that point. And also by that point the entire school knew - like, everyone. I don't know quite how it came out, but after that incident just rumors went, and at that point I just wasn't going to deny it. If someone asked me I just said yes, so the whole school found out, like any good school gossip. And the great thing at my school was that that didn't change anything. Everyone was still friends. I didn't have any of that disconnect in friends. Nothing externally bad happened, really, it was just the whole negative self-talk I had and the beating myself up that was the main issue. And I suppose next was that my sisters found out. One of my sisters was at the same high school I was at, at the time, so she just found out through the grapevine, and that was cool. Then another sister who's about five years younger than me, I told her, and she was just like, so? That was her reaction, like, okay, yeah, mm-hmm, like it was such a non-issue. And then I told my youngest sister who's seven years younger than me, and we have this really cute relationship because I'm actually quite the big brother to her, and she's my little sister, and I told her and she... I'm trying to remember back to what she said. It was something like, oh, that's a shame, because she really quite liked the guy that I was dating at the time and of course that meant that he was gay, so now he was off limits. So yeah, that was really cool. It was really, really supportive. And what kind of happened for me after that is I was gradually getting back to a normal level, like gradually coming out of depression, and that's like an interesting journey in itself. I know my parents had to have their own journey around what being gay was and all that stuff. And for me, I got really into doing any sort of personal development work, so obviously I did a lot with reading around depression and stuff. I got involved in Rainbow Youth. I went along to some of their support groups, which is really cool to be chatting with people who had had similar experiences or completely different experiences. And I did volunteer work where I went into schools and shared my story, and to me, as wonderful as that was for the work that it was doing for the community, really it was actually healing myself. Every time I would sit in front of a class and share my story there would be healing going on. And I remember when I first shared it, the person - because we always had co-runners - who was running it with me, afterwards she said, " You know, it would be cool if you could kind of be a bit happy when you share your story," because apparently it came across very, very depressed, which was great, but it really got like every time I shared it I guess I saw it from a different perspective and how it allowed me to grow, and kind of the good side of it, which there kind of is with everything. So that raised me up again, and everything in my life since then has just been about changing how I see the world, to the point where I am now that I get to choose how I feel, and so depression just isn't even on the radar any more. Gareth: When you say you get to choose how you feel, how do you do that? Stephen: Well it's my belief that we all choose what we do. So to me, if I was to do depression now, it would be I would have to do depression. It used to be that depression was something that I... First it was: depression is me. Then it was: depression is something I have or am experiencing. And now it's like: depression is something you do. Like, if I wanted to feel bad, I know I would have to hold myself a certain way. I'd have to tell myself certain things in my head. And so also, to choose how I want to feel is just a matter of noticing my thoughts. And it changed from doing really simple things like - I don't know where it was I read it or I heard it - to flirt with yourself in the mirror. I remember reading at the time that you'll feel silly, and I remember doing it and thinking, this is really silly. And simple things like looking yourself in the eye and telling yourself that you love yourself, so I started doing that, and just being silly, like just silly, flirty stuff in the mirror when it's just yourself. And it felt really weird and forced, to the point now where if I look in the mirror, that's my natural reaction, whereas a lot of people look in the mirror and their first reaction is: oh, look how whatever you're looking, or I hate you, or stuff like that. People have so many negative conversations in their head the whole time. And I remember with all the stuff that I was doing, I remember one time feeling, God, I've been so happy the last few weeks, and I thought back, oh, that's because the voice in my head has shut up, or when it's talking it's coming in with positive things. And I'm at the point now, having practiced that, where when something negative does come up I just kind of ask a different question and flip it around so it can never get to where it was before. Gareth: That obviously takes a lot of personal insight and energy, I guess, doesn't it? Stephen: Yeah it does. I think it can take a lot of energy to have to actually look at yourself, but for me it's also been a really fun journey and really eye opening and kind of the point of life, really, if I was going to get all deep and spiritual about it. Gareth: So to you what is the point of life? Stephen: The point of life is to kind of choose to be the next highest version of that vision that you have about yourself. Like, people have a vision of what they're like, what their highest version of them is, and it's about being the next level of that. And then once you're that, the next level of that, so that you really experience life, and doing whatever you feel you need to do. And that would pretty much be it - and having fun along the way. Gareth: So how does that play out in a day-to-day sense? Stephen: In a day-to-day sense, I think for me the big thing is that I'm just so relaxed with life now. Stuff just doesn't bother me. Yeah, I still have emotions so I still have the good stuff and the bad stuff, but it's in terms of choosing to be who I want to be. For me, at the moment it's about finding what I'm really passionate about and doing that, and knowing that if I'm doing stuff that I'm not really passionate about that I'm choosing to do that and I know it's not going to give me the huge sense of fulfillment that I'm after, which is cool as long as I'm aware of that rather than just blindly going through and sitting in front of the TV for five hours, not realizing that I'm sitting in front of the TV for five hours. Gareth: Can you talk to me about, when you were visiting schools, how the students reacted to you? Stephen: Yeah, doing workshops in high schools is one of the most awesome things I've done. The students - you get various degrees of classes - some who are really well behaved and others who are giggling at everything. But the thing for them is that they really liked it because it was kind of like: I can't believe we're actually talking about this stuff. Maybe it's less so now, but it was stuff that just didn't get talked about in school, like being gay and all the stuff that kind of comes with that, and so here we're talking about it and they had the opportunity to ask the presenters and ask me any questions they wanted, and it could be really personal questions or it could just be general factual information. And that was just a really cool thing to do. And I think with most young people, if you're just sharing your stories and you're hearing what they think, then that's like a really great way to learn. Gareth: What were some of the most difficult questions? Stephen: You know, I don't know if there were really any difficult student questions. The ones I loved were the ones that really made me think, which were more when they'd ask me how I felt about something and I'd have to actually go away and go, huh, how did I feel about that? and then come up with a response, which is great for me. Being teenagers, you'll get questions about sex and about first boyfriends and stuff, and they were just great because you just say, " Well, maybe you can ask your Health teacher about those questions next time you learn about sex ed." I guess if there had to be something that was difficult it was when someone would challenge you with a view of: Well, don't you think it's wrong to be like this? Or, what about adopting that? Or, my religion says this. But none of them were hard because all I had to do is say, well, this is how I feel about it, and that's me. So there's no ever dictating this is how it is, it was just everyone sharing their own view. Gareth: Just going way, way back to when you were 13-ish, I'm just wondering if you think the depression came on because of external influences like people saying this is wrong, or was it more internal? And if it was internal, where did it come from? Stephen: In terms of depression, my view around depression ultimately now is that it's always internal. It's always from the thoughts we tell ourselves. However, having said that, we all are the makeup of what we've grown up as, so I somehow took onboard, when I was younger, the internalization of things. So if there was stuff that was negative I would take it inside, and that's where all the negative stuff came from. So we've got several things: First, I'm taking negative stuff inside, and then growing up learning that it's wrong to be gay, when I put two and two together it was just like my natural reaction was to think I'm this negative thing and then just go and be negative about it. So sometimes it's an easy solution to say that it's because of this reason that I ended up depressed, but for me it was because I had all those negative conversations with myself. And that's not about blame or anything, but the cool thing with that is that it's about responsibility. If I'm feeling this way because of my negative talk about myself, then that means that I could also feel good about whatever talk I tell myself, so it gives you your personal power back of saying: I can now choose to have a different conversation with myself and therefore be happy. And that doesn't ignore the fact that there are external factors when we're growing up, because that's there. That's putting the most responsibility and the most power, the most empowering part of it, with yourself and back on who you are, because then you can actually do something about it. Gareth: Can you describe how your parents reacted to you coming out, and also to the depression? Stephen: My parents reaction to coming out - there were a few things. At first, I think there was actually a bit of relief in that before then we'd been going through this depression thing and I'd had EEG readouts and scans and stuff to find out " what was wrong with our son," and when they found out it was because I was gay it was like, oh, okay, so it's not like he's got some mental blah, blah, blah, or whatever, it was just all around this. But of course, as soon as that happened it pulled up their own stuff because, especially when I was really young, we were quite into the church. And I don't know much about my parents' history around that, but I know from my mum that it was really challenging. There was kind of this awkwardness around it where I remember once she told me that she thought that I was rejecting women, and so she always had a lot of personal stuff to deal with it. My dad was very... I don't know, he was almost stoic about the whole thing. I remember once he said, " Well look, I could buy you some porn if you'd like. I could get ones that have girls and guys," like to, I don't know, see if I could explore which way I wanted to go. At first it was really negative and I'd be very careful. Like, I wouldn't talk about any of my gay friends, and I'd be very careful about bringing anyone over, and there was always this tension. And what was really interesting is that as I guess my parents went through their own journey the tension actually became all mine in the end. We got to the point where my mum was like, " Oh, are you seeing anyone?" And I'd almost freak out, going, oh, do I say something now? It got to the point where they'd obviously dealt with whatever they needed to deal with, and now I needed to deal with [the idea] that actually I can be really open and relaxed with my parents because they're now very accepting of that part. And I think what my mum put it as later on was that I had asked her - this was partway through their journey - " How do you feel about me being gay?" And she said, " Well, you know, you don't end up with everything you want from your kids, originally," which was a huge movement from before where it was really bad. It was just like more of a disappointment, and I haven't actually asked her, but I think now it's just a non-issue because my partner is treated as just part of the family. Like, he's kind of expected to show up if we have a family thing now. Yeah, I think parents, when you come out, they do go on their own coming out journey just as much as the person who's coming out. Gareth: What are your thoughts, in more general terms, about mental health issues and lesbian and gay queer communities? Stephen: I think, to me, it just seems so obvious why there'd be lots of mental health issues in the queer community. If you're looking at any community that is marginalized, and that goes from the negative stuff that gets said about, if you look at when the Civil Union Bill came out and you had all the stuff about both camps arguing, which is great, but if you were a 13 year old kid, going through issues, that just kind of adds to it. It just stands to reason that there are going to be mental health issues, because anyone who has gone under pressure or gets put down, that's going to add to it, depending on their mind state as well. I have friends who have grown up and have the most amazing mental... like almost a... what do you call it? Almost a psychology of excellence. Like, they've really just got it, and they've had the same growing up as everyone else, pretty much. So it depends how you've grown up to take that onboard, but if you're in a group that gets marginalized and gets put down, where there aren't all the strong role models on TV, or there certainly didn't used to be, then where are you going to look for strength? Unless you have somebody that's there to show you how to do that or you've learned how to do it yourself, which will again be from someone else when you were younger showing you how to do that, then I would guess there's a much higher probability of getting into mental health issues. Gareth: So, what do you think are some ways that we as a community, or as individuals, can help other people? Stephen: I think the best thing that anyone can do for helping other people is by allowing them to be who they are, and that's like with everything in life. The more we allow people just to be who they are, regardless of who that is, the more it's just common knowledge that I'll be accepted for who I am anyway. And that's not just around the queer community, that's around everything. If little Johnny wants to go and play whatever sport, then awesome, that's great. If he wants to go do something else, then that's cool as well. And I think as individuals it's also our responsibility to shine our own light. I know in New Zealand there's a bit of the whole tall poppy syndrome thing, but for me it's that the more you shine your own light, and I don't mean showing off, I just mean fulfilling who you are, you give permission for other people to do the same thing, and it's just about having that supportive environment to do it in that's going to make a difference. Gareth: Do you think depression will ever come back and visit you? Stephen: Depression will never be coming back and visiting me because I know who I am. I'm a completely different person now to who I was then. There's still me, but there's just none of that negative self-talk, and I know when I've had really bad days and I'll feel crap, but I know that's just me feeling crap, that's not going to lead to something else, whereas when I was actually getting better initially, there was stuff like that. Like, I'd have a bad day and I could feel myself letting myself be pulled back down again, whereas now it just doesn't go there; it's not a part of who I am any more. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089156
TITLE: Priscilla Penniket profile
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VOICES: Priscilla Penniket
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 1990s; 2010s; Auckland; Priscilla Penniket; Rainbow Youth; Wai Ho; education; hate crime; homophobia; school; teaching; transcript online; youth
DATE: 26 May 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Priscilla talks about working for Rainbow Youth to do homophobia education in schools. This podcast was funded by a generous donation from Roger Smith.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Wai Ho: This is Priscilla, and Priscilla does lots of stuff, some of which is working at Rainbow Youth. Priscilla Penniket: Do you want me to talk about Rainbow Youth? Wai: Yeah, why not?[laughter] Priscilla: I'm the education coordinator at Rainbow Youth. That means I go and talk to students in the high schools; they're generally about 15 or 16. I talk to them about sexual orientation, gender identity, homophobia, coming out, and all those kinds of topics. Wai: And how do they take that? Priscilla: Generally really, really well. All of them take it really, really well. Sometimes there are some homophobic students in the class, but they're generally just trying to be defensive. You know, maybe they're gay or whatever. But yeah, they take it pretty well. Today in class they seem to know a whole lot of stuff, and one of the volunteers asked them how many of them know a gay person really well, or something, and about half of them raised their hands. So that was really cool and it kind of made me think about the content of the workshops and whether it needs to incorporate some more stuff around people knowing more gay people these days now. So yeah, they take it really well. Yeah. Wai: So would that be the specific schools in which you're going to, as in would the schools that let you in, would they be more progressive? Or, do you think that's a kind of widespread thing where like, wow, actually society's just becoming less homophobic and lots of young people do know heaps of queer people? Priscilla: Right. I guess a bit of both. I do think society is becoming less homophobic. Well, I mean, if we're talking really far back in time then obviously it wasn't homophobic because sexuality was thought about in a different way. But yeah, like recent past, I think we are becoming less homophobic, but it's definitely, as well, quite school specific, like you said. I think in some schools the students will know a whole lot more queer people because it's not as homophobic and more people are out, so they're more likely to know them, whereas in the schools where they think they don't, they would know them but they just don't know they're gay because everyone isn't out. Wai: So do those schools approach you or do you approach the schools? Priscilla: When I first started working at Rainbow Youth a year ago there were about six schools that had had a relationship with Rainbow Youth for quite a few years around education, so they contacted me as soon as I got in the job and that was all set up and went really well. But since I've been there we've put together a new flyer and sent it out to every single school across Auckland. Wai: Whoa! How many schools are there in Auckland? Priscilla: 150, so yes, I'm feeling a little bit overwhelmed! Wai: You could get really busy if they all get back in touch. Priscilla: Well, it's getting really busy already, yeah, but everything at Rainbow Youth is always developing and in flux and changing to the needs and things like that, so we're looking at changing the education program as we always are, but in the future it could include things like more educators at Rainbow Youth, like a team like other organizations have. Wai: So a lot of stuff happening. Priscilla: Yes, yes. Wai: And how did you get into this role? Have you done queer youth work before? Priscilla: Yeah. I kind of came out publicly when I went to university and found the UniQ down there, the queer group. Wai: So this is in Auckland? Priscilla: No, this was in Dunedin. Yeah, and I just started volunteering with them straightaway, so I think I kind of remember, it was like six years ago now, but I'm pretty sure they already had groups going when I joined, but I started a queer women's focus group once I became a member of UniQ, so I helped with that, running the group and facilitating and all that kind of stuff. And I would help when they'd put on events, so it would be like the... what's it called when you do the inside stuff? Like, when you're decorating. It's stuff to do with the decorating, but that sounds stupid.[laughter] Wai: Oh yeah! Priscilla: Kind of like the interior design of the parties or whatever that's called. Wai: Oh, coolPriscilla: So I've been involved with events and organizing all that kind of shit and went to conferences and all that kind of stuff, so I was heaps involved in a volunteering capacity with the queer community in Dunedin. Wai: You said you came out publicly when you joined... is it called UniQ in Dunedin? Priscilla: Yeah, another UniQ. Yeah. Wai: Or whatever UniQ down there. What were you before you were publicly out? Did you know but you kind of hadn't told anyone? Priscilla: So you want my coming out story.[laughter] Wai: Yeah, why not? Priscilla: I had a girlfriend in high school and we were together for about two-and-a-half years while I was at high school, but we didn't come out to any of our friends at school. Wai: And this is in Dunedin as well? Priscilla: No, this in Tauranga in Mount Maunganui. Wai: So you grew up in Tauranga or all over the show? Priscilla: I was born in Sydney in Newtown, which is now apparently lesbo central. Wai: It's a very cool place there, yeah. Priscilla: Yup, so that's very exciting. And then we moved to New Zealand when I was five and I grew up in Mount Maunganui until I was 18. I went to uni in Dunedin for five years, and then moved up to Auckland and I've been here for a year. Wai: So you had a girlfriend in high school - the quick synopsis. Priscilla: Yeah. I had a girlfriend in high school. I think I was with her for maybe even a year, with her and in love with her, but didn't think I was gay. I hadn't really come out to myself quite, I guess; I definitely hadn't come out to anyone else. I hadn't told my friends, but I really wanted to talk about the relationship because I was in love and wanted to talk about it, so I kind of made up this thing about this boyfriend that I had. Everyone wanted to meet him, but I said that he live really far away, just so that if dramas happened I could talk to my friends about it, but that was really weird. The more I think about that now and the more I take volunteers into the education sessions to tell their coming out stories to the students, and the more I hear people's coming out stories and the things that people go through, because they all seem quite similar, it's just putting me in touch with the things that I went through and how fucking weird they are. I don't think non-queer people can get how weird it is to do shit like that, like making up a fake boyfriend so you can talk about the problems you're having with your girlfriend. That's so complex. Wai: And was she at school with you? Priscilla: Yeah, yeah. Wai: So she was there when you were talking about your boyfriend problems?[laughter] Priscilla: No, no, no. No, she wasn't there. I'd talk about it and, no, she wasn't there. Wai: Yeah. And so when you came out publicly in Dunedin had you already told your parents and did they know, or your family? Priscilla: With my first girlfriend my mum saw us hooking up.[laughter] Wai: Accidentally? Priscilla: Yeah, definitely accidentally. Wai: And you got busted. Priscilla: We got busted, totally, and we weren't even on my property. We were on someone else's property, so my mum was shitty at me. Well, this is what I remember of it. Maybe other parties of the scenario have different stories. But yeah, we totally got busted. And from what I remember my mum was really shitty at me, but I think it was kind of unclear whether she was shitty that I was hooking up with her or whether I was hooking up with somebody on somebody else's property, so it was unclear what she was shitty about, but she was shitty. And she asked me if we were together, and I was freaked out because she was shitty so I said no, and then that was that, which kind of worked out well because she could just stay all the time and she was just my friend. [laughs] So that's kind of positive, I guess. Wai: Do you have brothers and sisters? Priscilla: Yeah, I've got one brother. I can't remember what he thought about it back then, but yeah, everybody's totally sweet with it now. I think they'd be... although, it's funny, I was thinking about this this morning: I'm pretty sure they would be really, really shocked if I brought a guy home as my boyfriend. But then I was thinking, would they? Maybe if I brought a boyfriend home they'd be stoked, like, yay, finally she's straight! But I doubt that. Wai: So, do you talk about it at all, or it's just one of those not-talk-about things? Priscilla: Um, talk about in what capacity? Yeah, we definitely talk about it. It's nothing that I feel uncomfortable about. Like I said, I'm pretty sure they'd be really surprised if I brought a guy home, so they just know that's who I am, and there's definitely no weirdness around that at all. Definitely I would bring home any partners - that's just totally normal. Wai: So was your mum kind of sweet as about queer people or gay and lesbian people when you were growing up? Were there any messages that you kind of got from her? Priscilla: Well, when we were in Australia... Or like, my brother's Godmother is a transgendered person, and I think they hung out with the queer community heaps, mainly before we were born. That was like their social circle, I think, is my impression from what they tell me. And my dad's made a documentary called Man into Woman, and he made in the '80s and it's screened in cinemas and stuff. So yeah, it seems like this massive queer history, but my mum and dad split when I was five so I grew up with my mum and my stepdad, and they didn't have a queer community of friends then. Wai: But they didn't say really homophobic things and that stuff. Priscilla: No, they didn't. Wai: That's good. Priscilla: Yeah, that is good. They didn't say homophobic things. I do remember, though, watching the Topp Twins on TV and I don't... Yeah, this is the thing, I was grossed out by them. Of course, obviously now I just think they're fucking amazing, but I was really grossed out by them. And I think, obviously when you're young you're like a product of your environment or whatever, so surely there must have been some kind of weird vibe towards people doing drag stuff. Wai: Maybe it was school. What was school like, the attitudes there? Priscilla: Yeah right. At high school it was definitely not cool to be gay, definitely not. I went to an all-girl's school and there was supposedly this group of lesbians there that apparently they sat behind K block or some shit like that. That's where they sat and there was like four of them and they were like vampire lesbians and they'd suck each other's blood and stuff like this. So that was the only kind of thing that was around at my school about gay women, so it wasn't something you want to associate with, these vampire lesbians that are real goth. Like, it wasn't me. Yeah, and there was definitely that finger-pointing thing. I'm pretty sure even the straight girls would be scared that someone would point the finger at them and call them a lesbian. It's like everyone felt - I'm sure this wasn't just me projecting - but, I'm pretty sure it would be the worst thing to be called a lesbian, and you kind of live in fear that someone's going to call you that and then other people might believe it, and then you're going to be the lesbian and everyone's not going to want to get changed near you in the changing room, and shit like that. Wai: So coming out at high school was definitely not an option. Priscilla: No, but thinking about it now, I don't know. I mean, I was friends with everybody; I think it maybe would have been fine. Maybe. I don't know. My mum also went to the school, so I didn't... This is another thing I heard in a volunteer's story about, this idea about not wanting to shame her, that's how this volunteer said it, and yeah, that resonated heaps with me. I felt responsibility to not embarrass her at school. Wai: Yeah. Yeah, so is it kind of just freeing because, I guess when you were at university your mum wasn't there, but also moving away from everyone, did it kind of free you to feel that you could come out there? Priscilla: Totally. Wai: And did you struggle with it in yourself, or it was just that the social situation's changed, so I can come out, or did you actually feel happier about being queer? Priscilla: I think it was just the social situation that had changed, because I met my first other queer woman in 7th form - that was not my girlfriend - and we went and visited her in Dunedin, me and my girlfriend. And she had all these queer friends and I was just like, oh my God, there're other lesbians! Like, I just seriously thought there were no lesbians in the whole world, I think. Wai: Apart from the Topp Twins. Priscilla: I didn't know they were lesbian. That happened when I saw them on TV when I was like 10 or whatever, and I was really confused. And that's another thing. I was the bully at school - like, the homophobic bully. Wai: Oh no! [laughs] Priscilla: Yeah. I had homophobia phobia. Wai: [laughing] So maybe your education stuff is trying to undo all of that. Priscilla: Totally! I totally say that when I'm in class. Yeah, because one of the terms I describe in the workshops is homophobia phobia, which is the fear around encountering homophobia yourself. So like, acting out, in whatever way that is, because you're scared that you're going to get bullied in a homophobic way. So that's what I was doing at school. I was so scared that people were going to say that I was gay, and I was gay and I didn't want anyone to know, so I would police other people's sexuality so that no one would police mine. I mean, it's fucked. It's that power dynamic thing, but I thought if I had power that nobody would have power over me. Wai: Oh dear! How things have changed for you then. Priscilla: Yes. Yes, very much so. Wai: So what's it like being queer now? I guess your job plays a big part of that, but do you encounter homophobia today, these days and now, and that kind of thing? Are you quite chipper as a queer person in the world?[laughter] Wai: That's a weird question. Priscilla: Well yeah, I feel pretty chipper, but yeah, I do encounter homophobia, too, so both of them. I run in queer circles, I think I'm realizing more and more. Like, whenever I hang out with not-queer people I'm like, whoa, this is different! Not as in I never interact with straight people - not that at all - but I take for granted that the communities that I'm in are queer, in one way or another, but pretty much queer. So, whenever I'm hanging out in scenarios that aren't queer I feel really weird, and I would call that homophobia, yeah. [laughs] As in, I feel weird... You're looking at me confused. I think that's homophobia because the weird feeling is coming from... I don't feel like it's coming from myself because I have deconstructed my homophobia pretty much, I think. I think there are still a few things I need to deconstruct, and I'm working on those, but the majority, like my general view of being queer, is pretty positive, so when I'm feeling abnormal I know that it's not coming from me. Wai: So is it mostly a feeling or have people said stuff or is it a look or an assumption? Priscilla: It's like an ignorance, I think is what it is. Ignorance, for me. Especially, this is what has changed for me becoming an educator: I've become way less cynical, which I think is really nice. Not that I was ever really cynical. Wai: What about it has made you less cynical? Is it a change-is-possible kind of thing? Priscilla: You know, I'm trying to teach about homophobia and the ways that it happens, and I've realized, because I really care about my job and I want to do it, it's my passion, it's not just something I'm doing, I'm doing it because I feel like it's going to make some difference and I want it to be really effective. I'm not trying to make homophobic people feel bad; I'm trying to let homophobic people know that what they're doing is hurting people. And out of that, I've for some reason come to this point where I feel like all homophobia doesn't really come from a place where people are trying to be mean. I feel like it's coming from a place - well, many places, but all of them are just ignorance. Like either the person being mean doesn't know any gay people, so they've got all these weird stereotypes that they're perpetuating and putting onto people, and that's homophobia, but it's just because they don't know anybody. They don't know any better. Or, like I was, they're scared that they're going to get bullied so they bully people, which just also comes from fear. You know, just all these things that can be really easily changed through compassion, I feel. I know this is sounding really funny. Wai: No, it's not sounding funny. Priscilla: But I just feel like giving compassion is the way to make things change, so I try and do that in the workshops. Wai: So, obviously, homophobia you'd like to change in society. Are there other things that you can kind of see in society that you'd like to change, not you personally, but in general, society to shift towards? Priscilla: Right. Well yeah, I think that's where I was heading with homophobia coming from ignorance. So, an example of me feeling abnormal in places is if people don't know anything about being queer, or even being in an environment... for example, I was at a party on the weekend - on Sunday or something - and talking to this person about some interesting stuff. And then I said something about a party with all women, or something, and then they were like, oh, okay. Really? And I was like, well, yeah. I think we were talking about comfortability levels or something, and I was like, yeah, I generally feel pretty fucking comfortable; because I think there were heaps of people there that I didn't feel comfortable around, and we started talking about that for some reason. And then he was like, well what do you generally need to feel comfortable? And I thought that was weird anyway, but then I was like, well probably if it's a room of women I'm probably going to feel pretty comfortable. And then he was like, oh really? And I was like, well yeah, I guess it depends on the women, but yeah, probably. And then he was like, okay, what other scenarios? And then I was like, well I feel really comfortable in queer environments. And he was like, queer? And then I was like, yeah, I'm queer. And then he was like, you're queer? It was as if he just did not understand why I was saying that I was queer, as if I was calling myself odd or something like that. He just did not get it. Wai: So he didn't know it was a reclaimed term? Priscilla: No. [laughs] No, he didn't. He didn't know anything about it at all. And I feel like having more compassion in some areas of my life, I have way less compassion in other areas now. Like, I can't be an educator at work and educate in my personal, private life. So he was like, " Queer?", and I'm like, sorry man, I just can't explain this to you. I just don't want to have to explain this to you right now. And he was like, oh, okay, and walked away. [laughs] So for me, that's an example of homophobia, and when people hear that I think that is homophobic behavior, they think I'm this fucking, staunch, weirdo, queer activist who is just pointing the homophobic finger at everybody who does anything that is slightly whatever. But I feel like if people were to take on the idea that homophobia comes from ignorance, that it's not necessarily people trying to be mean, but a lack of information is the same, just like with racism. If you're going to say something and it's really racist, but you haven't even thought about it and you weren't trying to be mean, that doesn't mean what you did isn't racist. And I feel like it's the same with homophobia. Like, yeah, he doesn't know any better and he's just trying to learn, but I don't want to fucking teach him. Like, he should go learn himself. And I found it offensive, and I think it's homophobic. [laughs] That was a real big rant. Next question! Wai: So, do you see yourself working in the community sector or doing community work in education for a very, very long time or is there a bunch of other stuff you'd like to do? Priscilla: Yeah, there are heaps of other stuff I want to do. I think feminism is really important to me. I think at some point in my life I'd like to be doing something similar to this, but in the realm of feminism, more focused on feminism than queer activism. Wai: Is there a lot of crossover? Priscilla: Yeah, yeah. I feel like there is, but as well, I often talk about sexism sneakily in the queer workshop, and also I talk a lot about racism. Like, I try and get it all in there, but there's only an hour and the focus is queer stuff, so the topics are things like coming out, levels of homophobia, blah, blah, blah. So I feel like there could be a parallel workshop on sexism. Wai: What would you say to people who say: Oh, we've done feminism! It happened in the '70s and '80s. Priscilla: Right. [laughs] Wai: Or is that too large a question? Priscilla: No, it's not too large. Wai: I guess it's still relevant for you, or it's still important to you. What parts are really important for you? Priscilla: Right. Yeah, I guess that crossover stuff you were talking about like gender stereotypes, obviously, are a big thing within feminism and queer activism. Similarly with sexual orientation, I guess, like people feeling like they might need to be in box, people not knowing heaps of options. I think an example of all of that kind of stuff, a sign that there needs to be work, is when somebody finds a label and feels huge relief through a label. I think that's an example that there's inequality and that there needs to be work. Wai: So, did you find a relief in finding feminism? Priscilla: Oh my gosh, I found so much relief! Wai: And where did you find feminism? Priscilla: The biggest relief of my life, more so than becoming queer, I think, although I don't know. Yeah, I do. Wai: Top five.[laughter] Priscilla: Yeah, top five relief scenarios. Yeah, for sure. I've had a lot of relief scenarios though. I'm really into labels at the moment, actually. Wai: What labels are you liking at the moment? Priscilla: Oh, I don't know if I want to tell you.[laughter] Wai: All right, we'll bypass that one. So, when did you find feminism or how did it find you? What was relieving about it? Priscilla: When I was studying in Dunedin I studied gender studies as one degree, through a BA, and psychology as a Bachelor of Science, and then did my honors in gender studies, so in terms of this job it's also perfect. That's a bit of background that I have for that, as well as the volunteering, but I found feminism through gender studies. In 7th form I took all sciences and all maths and entirely loved it and did really well, and then once I got to uni took the same, basically, in my first semester. But then I wanted to chuck in some other papers. You know, check them out, so I took sociology - one sociology paper and one gender paper, and I took the gender paper because it had the word sexuality in the title and I thought, oh my God, there might be some lesbians in that class.[laughter] Wai: You had ulterior motives! Priscilla: Total ulterior motives, and then it just totally made the path of my life, thus far. Wai: Because you found the lesbians or because you took the paper? Priscilla: No! There weren't any lesbians in the class, I thought, but it turns out one of my girlfriends after that was in my class. But no, I think there were a whole lot of queer women in that class, but I didn't notice and nobody said they were a lesbian, not that there is a lot of opportunities to do that when you're in a lecture. Wai: So it was a big relief when you discovered feminism. Priscilla: Yeah. I think the main thing for me actually, when I first came across feminism, was about - it might change - but I feel like I'm one of those women who are often portrayed in movies as really ditzy. I go up at the end of my sentences when I say stuff. I giggle, I say totally a lot. I zone out quite a bit when I'm trying to think about stuff. I like to wear certain things in certain ways, sometimes. And I think those kinds of women are always slagged off in movies, and for me, feminism was about being proud to be whoever you are and being proud to be a woman. I find it hard to say I'm proud to be a woman, because I'm thinking about gender at the moment, but when I first came across feminism it was amazing to feel really positive about being a woman. Yeah. Wai: So that was kind of a big relief for you, to be like, cool, I can be this way. Priscilla: Yeah, definitely, and heaps of it was theoretical, too. Like, I loved the mind trip that it took me on, which was like the first alternative world that I came across actually, feminism, and realizing that you can have different lifestyles. I learned about that through feminism. And realizing that you could think about things in a different way, conceptualize life in a different way. And that language is constructed. I learned the concept of deconstructing stuff through feminism, so yeah, that was massive for me because that's how my mind works now. It kind of formed my mind. Feminism formed my mind, yeah, so that feels nice. [laughs] And as well, learning to deconstruct stuff, I could deconstruct the fucked up shit that had happened in my life, from a place of strength, not from a place of victimhood or angriness. Obviously I love being angry, and I think that's really great; it's a good step, but not just taking shit and letting people say stupid ideas that make you feel weird. Feminism allowed me to realize that I'm feeling weird when people do certain things, and gave me the strength to speak up, because I'd always been really outspoken but I'd never had anything to back me up with why what people were doing was making me feel dumb. Wai: Well, that's pretty cool.[laughter] Priscilla: And also, it's totally constructed my analysis of the world. I see everything through feminism now. When I see people interact, I look at the dynamics through that lens, and all kinds of topics, for me. When you're going about learning something new, like I wrote recently this thing about the anarchist feminist hui that I went to that had a theme of decolonization and anti-racism, and I was writing up about the experience and saying how for me, learning about that and having ongoing learning around that, I'm always bringing it back to feminism. Like, whenever I'm trying to learn something new I bring it back to my analysis of the world that I have through feminism, and how structures work that seem to inherently, at the moment, privilege men over women, and applying that to other topics in other areas where people are underprivileged. Wai: So, relating that to queer communities.[laughter] Wai: That was a good transition, eh? How do you - maybe we'll talk about Auckland or maybe New Zealand - how do you see queer communities and where we're at with that stuff, and where you'd like to see it pushed or head, or is it all just trundling along rather nicely and doing a happy job? Priscilla: Right. I love the queer community. If I didn't I guess I wouldn't be able to hang out in it all the time. Wai: Is it the people or in Auckland is it the bars and pubs and socializing and events, or the whole lot? Priscilla: What? That I love or what's there for us? Wai: Do the people you meet through Rainbow Youth, you really love that aspect, or you love the whole lot of partying and there being big queer visibility events? Priscilla: Right, I think that concept of queer communities, with the " s" on the end, I guess is kind of relevant in terms of that homogenizing of any kind of subculture, of thinking all gay people are the same, and they're not, so there's going to be subcultures within the queer community, and I don't like all of those aspects. I don't know; I'm not into chess and maybe there's a queer chess group or something. I'm not going to go to that. I like chess, but I don't have time for it at the moment, and I'm not actually that good at it and have probably forgotten the rules, so I'm not going to go to that. And in Dunedin I was on the queer soccer team, the queer women's soccer team, and had a few goes at the queer softball, but wasn't that good. So, I'm into sport, but I'm not actually really into sport right now, at the moment. I like exercising, though. Wai: And bars and pubs are one of the visible focal points a lot of the time. Priscilla: Yeah. Yeah, it is. I actually found in Dunedin that the queer sports stuff was quite big, and seeing I was doing in the UniQ stuff wasn't always necessarily bar focused, so that's cool. The sports stuff was more middle-aged queer people, the uni stuff was obviously more young people, but yeah, there's definitely a focus on drinking and stuff like that. And I haven't travelled to heaps of queer cities around the world or anything, but yeah, I definitely get a sense that New Zealand's queer scene, just because of the size of our population, it isn't massive, and so the sub-scenes within the queer scene are really tiny and they haven't developed into really cranking scenes in all the different kinds of genres of whatever you want to do. Wai: But you enjoy them, nonetheless? Priscilla: Totally, yeah. Wai: Do you see them as really supportive of young people and education and awareness and that kind of thing? Priscilla: At Rainbow Youth I think we've done a really good job there to create awesome events and social gatherings weekly - multiple ones, weekly. There are six groups or something going on at the moment where they get together and have heaps of fun. They start new groups if they want to have new groups like animation nights and stuff where they all learn how to animate, and stuff like that. On paper, not their face or whatever. [laughs] So yeah, they do heaps of fun stuff, and I think they totally love it. I don't go to any of the groups as a participant, but they all seem to be super into it, make really good friendships. The group for under-18s has like 40 members in that group now, and that's just going to get bigger because all these kids are coming out in high school now, which is so cool. Yeah, so I feel like there's a focus there away from alcohol, but I feel like it's pretty unique having Rainbow Youth here in Auckland. The bar scene, yeah, that's kind of what I was meaning with the sub-scenes. Candy Bar up here has just opened, and that's like a queer women's bar. It's something like, For Women, but for Everybody, or some shit. I don't know - anybody can go, but it's woman focused. I love being in more woman-focused spaces, but I like gender variance in those spaces, but I like the vibe of there being heaps of queer women all there, and that's really exciting so I love going to Candy when there are certain things on that I like. Again, I'm not going to go there every night that it's open, because it's open like four nights a week, which is pretty sweet for a queer women's bar. In my mind that's pretty amazing because I don't even think we have a queer bar in Dunedin. But I only go when I know who's playing and what kind of music is going to play, because I guess I'm kind of snobby with my music, maybe. I don't know, but there's heaps of music I don't like and I'm not just going to go to a gay women's bar and listen to shit music and just be there because it's queer and it's for women. I'm not going to do that, but if there's really wicked music and I'm going to have a good night, then I love it that that space exists. But I feel like it's exciting, the idea of those scenes developing into more specific scenes, so that you can actually go to something where more parts of yourself are going to be acknowledged and present, as opposed to just your sexuality being there. Wai: Cool! Thanks heaps, Priscilla. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 165
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/feminist_queer_book_group.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003860
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089154
TITLE: Feminist Queer Book Group
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: George Mapplebeck
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 2010s; George Mapplebeck; Wellington; feminism; library; organisation; transcript online
DATE: 10 May 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast George Mapplebeck talks about the Feminist Queer Book Group in Wellington.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Hannah Ho: So here we have George Mapplebeck, and George Mapplebeck is going to tell us about FQBG. George Mapplebeck: Hi Hannah. How's it going? Yes, Feminist Queer Book Group, or FQBG, is something that I started with some friends, like a year ago. Hannah: How did you think to...? Were you sitting around and throwing some ideas around, or how did that idea come about? George: Yeah, kind of. It was New Year's that we basically came up with the idea and had like this burst of energy. We just decided that we needed to have a forum to sort of talk about some of the things that we'd found in gender studies and such papers, and it isn't really socially appropriate to discuss some of the things that we talk about in other contexts, so we thought it was important to sort of.... Hannah: [laughing] Like what? Tell me some of the socially inappropriate things that you talk about. George: I don't know. When we talk about feminism this is not always a popular topic with your flatmates, or sort of boring people at parties and things like that. [laughs] But yeah, we thought it was important to talk about, and we like talking about what we read, as well. Hannah: So did you kind of think of the idea because you'd been talking about particular topics at parties, and people were like, ugh, and from the responses you could see that it was really socially uncool or something? George: Well, not really; I was just kind of kidding around there, but people sort of don't want to get heavily into political ideas, and they don't want to get really deeply into discussions about gender in their everyday lives and how it affects them. Hannah: And why do you think that is? George: Because I think they feel that they take it too personally or something, and it does sort of cut a bit fine when they're sort of being seen as a victim or an oppressor or something like that. That's kind of how they might feel about it. Hannah: So they might think that it's all about them? George: Exactly, yeah. Or maybe they just think that that kind of stuff is boring, but we don't think it's boring. Hannah: So, you started up after New Year's, I guess. George: Yeah. Yup. Well, sometime after that when we had a meeting and talked about what we were going to do. We started just having a couple meetings at my house, and then more people started coming so we got a real venue, which is very fortunate that we've got that because otherwise I don't know where we would fit all the people that are coming along now. Hannah: So, how did it all grow? You had a few meetings and was it just word of mouth? George: Yeah, pretty much. It just started with our friends and then we started inviting other people along and people told each other. I guess word of mouth, pretty much. Hannah: And how many people come to the average meeting? George: The last meeting we had, there were 13 new people as well as everyone else, and so that was pretty huge, but usually meetings are around 12 people, but that was a particularly popular topic. Hannah: And what was that? George: That was on polyamory; queer views of polyamory. Hannah: I see, and what other topics have you [discussed]? Is it monthly, weekly? George: We run once a month. We've been thinking about maybe running more often, but for now it's once a month on an evening. Some of the other topics that we've been doing, the last one we had was polyamory, which was really popular. I guess everyone pretty much hates monogamy or something, or at least wants to talk about it, which I think is often the most important thing. Whether you do it or not is kind of irrelevant if you don't get the opportunity to talk about it most of the time. Hannah: It's an option. George: We had a really good one on fighting fat phobia, [and one on] women in history, which was kind of where people prepared something on a particular person. I did Tallulah Bankhead. We had a discussion on the commercialization of identity and the pink dollar and that kind of thing, so we talked about gentrification and money and marketing and all that stuff. We had a really hands-on thing with feminism and art, and so we all made a femmage and talked about feminists and did role plays and that kind of thing. And we've had a couple of things on psychology and feminism, which is something that some people in the group are actually studying, so it's really interesting to talk about that and sort of the theoretical perspectives of feminist philosophies around psychology, I guess. And we had a more fun one with a feminist that you don't agree with, so we ripped into, like, all those feminists from the '60s that now we completely don't agree with. [laughs] We had one about lesbian identity and invisibility, which was a really fun one, and had some good discussions. The feminism in medicine one was really well attended, as well. It's kind of interesting the issues that people think are really important. Hannah: So, do people pick? Is there a core group or collective or something and you pick the next month's topic, or does it just kind of come out organically out of each session? George: Well, we usually try to find people that are sort of interested in talking about something, so it's not always us that handle the talking to the group or facilitating every single meeting. Hannah: So, you have a speaker usually? George: Usually we just find someone who wants to arrange a group of people and talk about it and have some discussion questions and helps prepare a little bit. Hannah: And so does someone do a talk and then you have a discussion? George: Well, we've had quite different ways of running it, so each meeting is not like the last. We've been kind of experimenting with what works and what doesn't, and that kind of thing, and we've decided that it's a good idea if we chair our meetings now, so sometimes we have a chair. [laughs] Hannah: Chairs are always good, aren't they? So, do the people that attend often agree with each other quite a lot or do a lot of sessions get quite heated? George: I think it's pretty much that we all have different perspectives, but we all come from a background of feminism, or something like that, so we all are sympathetic to opening up our minds and that kind of thing. We do have disagreements but it's more like a sparking a discussion kind of disagreement than an I-hate-you-and-I'm-never-coming-back-to-the-group-again thing.[laughter] Hannah: I guess, obviously, you do this because you're really interested in all of the topics and having yarns about this. What have been some of the really, really interesting things for you that you've gone, oh wow, I never would have thought about that, or whoa, that's whack? George: At the end of the last one we ended up having a really interesting sort of segue into some issues around queer politics and where people stand on that, and whether someone who isn't really political but is gay or lesbian is as queer as someone who is potentially straight but who supports queer politics. So we had a really long, in-depth discussion, which is really... I was quite surprised that people had actually really thought about it and had some interesting things to say. Hannah: So what were some of the points of view that came out of that? George: Some people think that people that sort of lollop off to Ivy every weekend, who don't really have any sort of politics or personal code of ethics for operating in the political world, there was the opinion that maybe they're not as queer as another gay or lesbian person who has queer politics – like, they do the opposite of heterocentrist values, kind of. We had the other shoe/foot scenario because there was the opinion that those people also are probably the most visible queers, as well, and so by even leaving the house they're sort of making a political move or something like that, [laughs] with their T-shirts and skinny jeans. Hannah: [laughing] Yeah. So, you identify as a lesbian. Talk to me about lesbian and visibility, because I think that was a term that was around a while ago. Does it still apply or how does it apply? George: In that discussion we talked about how lesbians aren't the main voice of gay and lesbian and everyone else politics. Hannah: The rest of the alphabet. George: Yeah. So, people have stereotypes about lesbians, but they don't see lesbians when they're right in front of them, as well, so people sort of expect a big, butch dyke with cigarettes rolled into her T-shirt or something like that, but this is definitely not the case. And while there is a lesbian culture that has some of those stereotypical aspects in it, I think, especially for femme women we talked about how they sort of struggle to be recognized as queer and as outside of the – what's the word? Hannah: Norm?[laughter] George: The norm! Thank you. Hannah: Yeah. So, have you always known that you were a lesbian? George: I think I always kind of felt that I was different, but I don't think I've always identified as a lesbian. I think a lesbian is something that reflects your culture identity as much as it does your sexual identity. I think being a lesbian, for me, is about being a part of a gay culture rather than anything about my sexuality, per se. Like, there's definitely a correlation, but it's kind of hard to describe. Being attracted to girls in high school, you're not like: I am this because I think that girls are hot. I think it's something that you have to try out the label and see if you can feel like a lesbian is an okay thing to be. Hannah: So, a little bit like the difference between someone who is a homosexual, and someone who identifies as lesbian or gay and is involved in the queer communities or whatever? George: Yes. Yeah. So, I think part of coming out to myself was being like: I can be a lesbian. And also, I think when I was first thinking about it, it was kind of like, a lesbian is something that I'm definitely not, because I just couldn't be a lesbian because of where I'm from and that's just not something... Hannah: Well, did you give it connotations, or just in your head you were more, it looks like that, and I'm not like that? George: Yeah, pretty much exactly that. Like, I just didn't feel like I had that otherness or something. Hannah: Then how did that change? Was it to do with your interaction or partaking in queer or lesbian communities? George: Yeah, pretty much. I think I sort of got more information about what being a lesbian, culturally, actually meant, and then sort of decided that my sexuality actually mattered in terms of how I was going to relate to the rest of the world, as well, and that was going to be something that would make me go down certain pathways or whatever it was. Hannah: And so what were some of your early forages or interactions with the lesbian communities? Was it in Wellington? George: I actually grew up in Kapiti, my parents are still living in Waikanae, so that's where I'm pretty much from, and there really aren't any gay people there. Hannah: You can't see them. George: Like, I'm sure there are lots, but they're invisible. Yeah, like, they're not telling, and I think not having any queer role models in that community was kind of maybe why I took so long to get my head around being a lesbian, as well. But yeah, I moved into Wellington and had a lot more influences from other lesbians. Hannah: How did you find lesbians in Wellington? [laughs] George: How did I find lesbians? Hannah: Did you put an ad out? [laughs] George: No, no, no. I lived with some lesbians while I was still very much in the closet, but I was living with a lesbian. Hannah: So, did you find that flat in the paper? Was it accidental? George: And she was like, all these things, and it was like, blah, blah, blah, and she would talk about what she did on the weekend, and I would think, ah, yeah! Hannah: So, was it accidentally that you moved into a flat and it happened to be a lesbian, or you'd kind of talked around for flats and people were like, hey! How did you find her? George: I don't know. I think she was just friends of friends kind of. Hannah: Yeah, and through her kind of talking about what she got up to on weekends you saw that something existed and that you could be part of it? George: Yeah, like finding out where people go and that kind of thing just from her, maybe, and having the option of getting involved in the community and meeting people and that kind of thing. Hannah: So, you kind of struggled with imagining yourself as a lesbian. Once you kind of saw that there were ways to be a lesbian or that there were lesbians out there and they weren't completely invisible, did you have any struggle to accept that you were a lesbian then, personally, with yourself, or did it just kind of come along with that? George: I think it was kind of a gradual thing. I think the hardest part was probably dealing with my own issues around what a lesbian would be, would mean for my friends and my family and that kind of thing. Hannah: And how did they cope with you being a lesbian? George: They're pretty cool, actually, but I was so psyched before I told anyone. I was like, " Oh, no! They're all going to reject me," and that kind of thing. Hannah: And they didn't. George: And they didn't, of course. Hannah: [laughing] Well, that's good. George: Yup, but you do sort of build it up in your head a lot. So, it's not as bad. Everyone come out. No one is going to hate you for it. Hannah: [laughing] But it actually is real bad for some people though! George: I know, but like, in my experience it's fine, [laughs] so I recommend it. Hannah: If you had come out at school, what do you think the responses there would have been like? George: I don't know. I was sort of like an almost-popular kid – not quite like popular. Hannah: Almost popular? George: Like, I think people might have changed their attitudes to me just because... I don't know; it's kind of like a rightwing school. Could I say that? Hannah: Yeah, I think you're allowed to say that. Do you mean that they all would vote National if they were of voting age, or do you mean kind of conservative homophobic or whatever? George: I mean conservative values like they think that homosexuals are strange people with sort of criminal activities and that kind of thing – like untrustworthy or all these negative stereotypes that they would say about gay people or something. Hannah: [laughing] Untrustworthy homosexuals. George: You know, it wasn't like a positive thing that you called someone. You weren't like: [sweetly] Oh, that's so gay! And particularly with guys they always are casting doubts upon the other's sexuality, and I think maybe it was picked up. Hannah: As a way to insult people you mean? George: It didn't feel like a very comfortable... But yeah, I remember having lots of debates with my music teacher about gay people and how they were okay. Hannah: And your music teacher was...? George: Even though I was like, " I'm not one!"[laughter] Hannah: Ah, Tyrick and Bay are okay. And so your music teacher was saying that they weren't okay? George: Pretty much, yeah. Yup. Oh, dear! Yup. Hannah: [laughing] The music teacher who shall remain unnamed. So, do you think with all the homosexual law reform and this that and the other, and queer people on Shortland Street and The L Word and whatnot, do you think there's still homophobia in our society today? George: I think the difficulty is there's just nowhere for young people to really see positive gay and lesbian role models in the community. I think maybe if there were just more people that were out and lived sort of okay lives, they would be able to see that there's a future in gayness without all the sort of negative stuff. Hannah: So, you think that doesn't happen enough? George: Yeah. I think that if the gay characters and stuff weren't automatically like sex-crazed maniacs, or they're always in like cop dramas and stuff in supporting roles, and that's good, but... Hannah: So it's a bit stereotyped and token. George: ... it could be a bit more varied and have some actual positive stuff associated with it. Hannah: So FQBG is part of your community work, but is that also a way to kind of generate change and get people thinking and moving and acting? George: Well, like when we started it we really didn't envision it as a political thing or that we were going to change the world or anything, but I think just being able to talk about it is pretty cool. Hannah: Yeah. So the Feminist Queer Book Group, that's some of the ways that you're involved in queer communities or gay and lesbian communities. What other things do you do to be involved, apart from going to Ivy with your T-shirt? George: Oh yeah, I was going to say go to bars, say hi. [laughs] Hannah: And do you think there's a need for gay bars and queer bars? George: Oh, totally! I think one of the best times I've had in Wellington was at Our Bar. I used to go there a lot. That was when I was like: I can go to town and talk to people by myself, and I don't need my friends to come with me, and this is all okay. It was just really good to sort of have a place to go and just be around other gay people. I think it's really important. It would be cool if it wasn't always an alcoholic establishment that you had to meet the people in, because you end up having regrets. Hannah: [laughs] Drunken regrets? George: Which I will not talk about now.[laughter] Hannah: So, you'd like to see more visibility or more representation that isn't just token, of gay and lesbian queer people. How are you treated in society? George: I don't really notice any more as much. Hannah: Do you think that's because it's changed or you just block it out? George: There are some times that I do feel kind of uncomfortable, and that is particularly in women's bathrooms. I think people are really suspicious of me. Hannah: Oh! I always get that. Do you mean funny looks? George: Yeah. Like, the evils of people actually asking you what you're doing in there, or mostly they'll just make jokes about it or something, and you'll be like: I feel really uncomfortable now, when you just want to urinate. It's weird that that's so defended as a place where you sort of have to be so, so female. Hannah: Why do you think that is? Do people just feel funny about their wees? George: I don't know! If I tried to struggle with getting into the mindset of people that look at me strange, I think I'd probably go crazy because I just don't really understand that. I just don't think that having a solely-your-gendered space is necessarily a valuable goal, and I think a lot of women will try and police what a woman is, anyway. So my message is: Just everyone relax. Hannah: Take a deep breath. So are there other things that you'd like to change in society? George: I would like.... Hannah: World peace? George: Yeah, world peace. Hannah: Why not? George: I think in terms of my feminism it's kind of like everyone-just-get-out-of-each-other's-way feminism, and create a space where you can just express yourself freely and that kind of thing. Is that really airy-fairy? I think it is. Hannah: Oh, it sounds great! Has your feminism and your politics, or I guess setting up a group to have yarns about really important things, has that kind of come out of doing gender studies? Was it women's studies or gender studies or both? George: I did one paper on gender studies, but it's always been something I've been really interested in. I used to always incorporate it into whatever I was writing about in my history papers or whatever – something about gender or, like, selecting lesbian erotica as my history reading or something. That was pretty cool. Hannah: And the other people that are a part of the group that go along regularly, has their feminism or politics or the stuff that they like to talk about been influenced or shaped by also going to university and doing gender studies? George: Yeah, I think that's another reason why we started the group was just because we'd all graduated and didn't have people to rant at anymore.[laughter] George: Yeah. We just kind of wanted to be listened to, in a way. I'm really smart! Here are my ideas. Hannah: Ah, yes. And so, one of the topics that you had at the FQBG was, what were you saying, like old-school feminism or '60s feminism and a feminist you don't agree with. George: Oh, yeah. We had a feminist you don't agree with. Hannah: And so are most of the people who go to the group kind of younger, as in not around in the '60s? George: We do have a couple of slightly older people. Yes, we are not exclusively 20-somethings. Hannah: And what were some of the big disagreements with feminism from the '60s that younger feminists are disagreeing with? George: Yeah. We talked a bit about Sheila Jeffreys. Hannah: Tell me about Sheila Jeffreys. George: Sheila Jeffreys wrote about how transsexuals are really a bad thing and they're people who just dress up in fake clothing, and she also had an issue with butch-femme lesbianism. So, she had this great sentence about mutant femme birds or something like that. Hannah: Oh, dear! It sounds like a good name for a band. George: People are just replicating the patriarchy, and stuff, and you can certainly feel her passion, but I just kind of think it's misdirected and it's just directing it against, you know, people whose life is hard enough. Hannah: Is she still saying that today, as in, not in the '60s anymore, she's still saying that? George: Yeah, something to that effect. So, we talked about that and some other feminists that we didn't agree with. I don't really remember exactly every one. Hannah: So, do you think feminism has changed? I guess it still gets a bit of a bad rap, or it gets a rap that it's been done. It got done in the '60s and '70s, why are we still talking about it now? George: Yeah, and now we almost earn the same amount as men do, so it's probably all okay. That's the theory. Hannah: So it's still relevant for you today, why? George: I think it's definitely still relevant. I just don't think women are as valued as men are, and I think that people need to sort of look at feminisms of the past and try and adapt them to our current, messy, globalized world, because I think that feminist ideas are important. Like, I'm almost lib-femme. Hannah: Tell me about what lib-femme is. George: That whole equality of pay, fair deal thing. But I think that why women don't get paid as much is because they have to take time out to have kids and because there's not really enough provision for having kids. Because we're set up so that men don't have to look after the kids, women end up missing out on sort of the center of their career and they never recover from that – well, often don't recover from that. And also, industries which are dominated by women, for no apparent reason get less money, and you can't just explain it away with economics. You'd have to be like, something's got to change. Maybe it's got to change from the top or maybe it's going to change just from everyone. But it's interesting to think about. Hannah: Yeah, so have you thought about that stuff because you plan to have children or is it something that you've just seen statistically or with your friends? George: I just think that it's one of the unfairnesses of society that keep people doing the same things – one of the things. I guess it's more complicated than just getting paid as much. Hannah: Yeah, so it's still relevant. George: Yes. Hannah: Do you think societal attitudes have changed? George: Yes, I think so, but I think that you get all of those old ideas and all of the new ideas and tolerances of people, and you get them all kind of mixed up together in society, and it kind of still seems like a battle to be accepted half the time, you know? Hannah: Yeah. What about queer communities? How do you feel about Wellington queer communities? Does it exist? [laughs] George: Oh, I like the gays in Wellington, and the lesbians in Wellington, and I think they're pretty great people. I think people do complain a lot that there's not enough on or there's nowhere to go or that everyone at the bar is the same, but I think that people do sort of need to remember that they actually have to participate in their community for it to even happen. So, I think if people didn't watch season three of Heroes all winter, and went out and organized some parties or something, the community would be better off and everyone would have such a great time. Hannah: So, if I was a person interested in coming along to the FQBG and having yarns, how would I find you all? George: You can email fqbgpost@gmail. com or you can find us on Facebook, or you can just hit me up if you see me around and just ask me about it. Yeah, that's basically it. Hannah: Great! Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 142
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/brendan_goudswaard_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003856
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089150
TITLE: Brendan Goudswaard profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Brendan Goudswaard
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Brendan Goudswaard; School's Out (Wellington); Wai Ho; Wellington; coming out; drag; education; gay; health; profile; school; support; transcript online; youth
DATE: 27 April 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Brendan talks about growing up and being a facilitator with Schools Out - a queer youth group in Wellington. This interview was funded by a generous grant from Roger Smith.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Wai Ho: So, here we have Brendan, who is a community development worker for Wellington Gay Welfare Group. What's some stuff that you do in that role? Brendan Goudswaard: I co-ordinate a group called School's Out, which is a support and social group for queers. I've got two groups going, one in town and one in Hutt, both run weekly. And I also recently set up another queer youth group for 18 to 25 year olds called GBLT Sandwich. Wai: [laughs] That's a great name. Brendan: And also we're looking at setting up another group out in Kapiti. Wai: And does School's Out meet in the schools or is that after school and out of school? Brendan: School's Out meets once a week either in town or in Lower Hutt at our particular venues, which are queer-friendly venues, after school hours. Wai: And you've had a long history with School's Out. Brendan: Yes. Yes, I used to go to School's Out myself when I was in high school, because School's Out started in my high school while I was at high school. So I started attending it as a youth and went for quite a few years, and have now come back as a facilitator and organizer of School's Out. Wai: You came out at high school. Brendan: Yes. Wai: You went to Wellington High, and that's where School's Out started. Brendan: Yes. Wai: What was that like? Brendan: Coming out in Wellington High School was quite easy. I found that once I had come out it was quite a lot easier for me at high school. I didn't get as much harassment and bullying. Before I came out I used to get a lot of people yelling abusive and homophobic stuff towards me, and I didn't know how to deal with it. And then after I came out, people might try and bully me, but I'm like, " Yeah, I am gay. So what?" And that left them with nothing else to say. Wai: So, were most people pretty good about it at school, apart from the odd people? Brendan: Yeah, most people were like, " Yeah, we sort of guessed from the 1st day of 3rd form," so no one was particularly surprised. Wai: And what about the teachers or faculty? Brendan: The teachers were generally really good. Some of them were really good at stamping out homophobia, and arguing out against the whole, " That's so gay" thing. Yeah some teachers really were great at countering that and sorting that out. Wai: You would meet a lot of young people who go to a lot of different schools in Wellington. How do other schools in Wellington compare to Wellington High? Brendan: There's a great variety of different schools and reactions for youth who come out at school. Some of it's fine. Some of it's hard at first, but eases up. Some of them would never come out at their school. Yeah, some would come out and receive a lot of harassment for coming out and get really negative responses, and some of them get great responses and become great role models in their schools. Yeah, there are a whole variety of reactions and responses to youth being out at school. Wai: And you do quite a lot of education and awareness stuff in schools. Brendan: Yes. Wai: How does that go? Brendan: That generally goes pretty well. It can be quite fun. I can get some interesting questions. Wai: [laughing] What kinds of interesting questions? Brendan: Questions around relationships and sex and all sorts of stuff about what it's like being gay, and all sorts of various random things. Wai: Did you always know that you were gay? Brendan: I've always known that I was attracted to guys, from a very young age. It wasn't until I was about 12 or 13 that I could actually put a name to it, because I remember when I was a kid, when I was about 7, 8, 9, or 10 years old, watching guys on TV programs and thinking they were attractive. Wai: On what TV programs? Brendan: Things like Baywatch and Man Oh Man. Wai: [laughing] Man Oh Man, I remember that. Brendan: Ah yes. I swear that part of the thing was that they had to get the guys topless at some point during the program, which I always found really exciting. Wai: And when you came out at school did you also come out at home? Brendan: Yeah, they were both fairly simultaneous, along side each other. So basically, when I came out at school, I came out at home. It all sort of happened over a period of about six months. Wai: And how did your family deal with it? Brendan: My family overall was fairly supportive. They did take a while to get used to the idea, and generally speaking they weren't too surprised. There were a few variations on that, but generally they were okay with it. Wai: Do you think they struggled with it at all? Brendan: I think they did for the first year or so, but over time they've gotten used to it, and they're really good with it and very supportive and talk about stuff with me. Wai: How did they respond? Like, what did you actually say to them? Brendan: What did I say? My mother wasn't too surprised, because in one of my sewing classes in high school I'd made a rainbow top, and that was quite a big tip-off for her. My father was surprised. He always sort of knew I was effeminate as a kid, but it didn't click that I might be gay. And he said that when they were trying for me, they were trying for a girl, and that's why I was gay. That was just one of the things. And my brother didn't say too much at all. He was like, " Oh yeah, sweet." Wai: So, he didn't beat you up or anything? Brendan: Well, he was in America at the time, so... [laughs] Wai: Did he used to bully you as a kid, or did you always get on quite well? Brendan: Oh, about as much as any siblings do, I suppose. There's always a bit of push and shove between siblings. I remember one time when I was a bit older, he was trying to get my cell phone off me and I kicked him right across the room. Wai: He kicked you? Brendan: No, no. He was trying to get at me, and I was on the bed or something, and I kicked him and he went flying across the room. Wai: And you kicked him. Brendan: And that was the last time that he ever tried to get at me. I had quite good leg power. Wai: So, what else does School's Out do? Is it a support group or is it a networking group or...? Brendan: It's a combination. It's both a support group for youth if they do want support and stuff, and it's also a good networking group. And it's also great for the youth because it's a place where they can go and meet other people like them, going through the similar stuff, and so the labels of being gay and being queer and being abnormal and stuff just completely drop away. So yeah, they get to be themselves and they get to be known for more about who they are and what their skills are and stuff, rather than the fact that they're queer. Wai: There's a kind of perception that everything's all sweet as since they've had all these law changes, and young people are really accepting and fluid and la, la, la; and then there's also the perception of queer kids who want to kill themselves and self-harm and are really depressed all the time. Are any of these stereotypes true? Brendan: In a way, I think those are both sort of true in some ways. In other ways they're completely not true, and nothing's fine and it's a little bit of a chaotic mess at times, I think, particularly for a lot of teenagers. Wai: Do you think there is stuff that queer youth face, still today, that make things more difficult than being straight, or is it just normal teenage growing up things? Brendan: No, I think being a queer teenager today is a lot harder than being a heterosexual teenager. I think there's a lot of hard stuff they've got to get through and face, and challenges. Wai: Like...? Brendan: Like coming to terms with who they are, telling their family and telling their friends, coming out to their classmates and stuff. If you're straight you never have to come out and say, " Hey, I'm straight," you know? You never have to declare that. Or maybe if you're questioning your gender you.... Generally, people don't have to declare what their gender is, except maybe on forms and stuff, and so if you're gender fluid or unsure about your gender and stuff, you've got to work out what your gender is and identify that and pronounce that. Wai: So, are you coming across quite a few young people who are gender ambiguous or questioning their gender and that kind of thing? Brendan: I come across them every now and then. They probably are bi, so they keep themselves a bit more underground and harder to find because there's such a big issue, and it's probably even scarier and harder than just being gay or lesbian or just queer. Wai: I've been hearing a new kind of term that people are identifying with - asexual. And someone was saying, no, no, it can't even be under the queer banner, but at School's Out it's one of the descriptions. Brendan: Yes. Yeah, at School's Out asexuality is definitely something we've taken under our umbrella and our wing, and we do have quite a few, three or four youth, who do identify as asexual and might be gay and asexual, or might be bisexual and asexual, or whatever. And that's cool. We even have a few straight people at School's Out as well, and that's fine too. We're an open group, open to anyone. We don't discriminate. Wai: So, you did School's Out voluntarily for many years, and you've just started being paid now, part-time, for it. What other community stuff are you doing? I know that you do quite a chunk of it. Brendan: Yeah. Yes, I do School's Out. I also am part of the Out Wellington committee, which organizes Proud Festival and Out in the Square. We've recently just had an art exhibition which went really well and was really successful. I'm also on the SS4Q team. Wai: What does that stand for? Brendan: Safety in Schools for Queers, and we've just got Pink Shirt Day coming up tomorrow. Wai: Tomorrow! Brendan: Tomorrow. [laughs] Wai: Tell me about Pink Shirt Day. Brendan: Pink Shirt Day is an international day where it's an anti-bullying campaign. And it's not necessarily homophobia or anything, it's all bullying across all sorts, from gender to race to size to just anyone who doesn't fit into the ideal, I suppose, or the normal, or anyone who gets bullied and harassed, and most people have been bullied at some point in their lives. So yes, it's a day to help fight or to work against bullying. And so it's just people at all these community groups and high schools and primary schools and preschools and stuff will wear pink shirts on Wednesday. Wai: So, it's a school thing? Brendan: It's not just a school thing. Businesses get involved, as well, because bullying can happen at workplaces, so it's everyone, I think. Wai: And how did that start up? Did the SS4Q start that or did it start somewhere else? Brendan: SS4Q started the New Zealand Pink Shirt Day. Pink Shirt Day itself began in Canada because a boy was being bullied for wearing a pink shirt. His mates caught sight of this, thought it was pretty stink, and that afternoon they went down to the local shopping mall and got a whole lot of pink shirts and pink tops and stuff. And then the next day they handed them out at the gate to show support for the mate who'd gotten bullied for wearing a pink shirt. And the bullies were never heard from again. The guy who was bullied, the victim, was just blown away by how awesome his mates were and how supportive they were. Yeah, that was a few years ago that happened. Wai: So, you're on those committees, and you also have an alter ego. Brendan: Yeah, yeah. I also have an alter ego. Ellie Kat is my stage name, which I've been doing for seven years. So I do quite a bit of community work with her, and do shows for all sorts of things and travel the country with it, as well. Yeah, I do quite a lot in the queer community. Wai: And do you ever get hassled for being a drag queen, or is it Wellington and it's, you know.... Brendan: I do get hassled for being a drag queen. I get it a bit in Wellington. I'd probably say in smaller towns around the country I get more of it. Wai: Do you think it's jealousy? Brendan: [laughs] Yes! Yes, it's totally jealousy. The guys wish they could get girls like me, and the girls wish they could be girls like me, and girls wish they could get girls like me, and I don't know. No, I think it's more just a fear of the unknown. And yeah, I think we could possibly be intimidating in some ways, as well. Wai: Do you think it's because it's not clear that you're...? Brendan: Yeah, because we do push the boundaries of gender and what is gender and stuff, and I think people can be sort of taken aback by that and can find that quite confronting. Wai: Do you experience homophobia as a gay man, when you're not in drag? Brendan: I do a little bit. I think I get more than what I notice. I don't think I notice it so much anymore. I've been getting bullying and harassment from such a young age I think I've just sort of grown a thick skin about it. Wai: Even when you were little - like, little, little, little? Brendan: I think I've been getting bullying and harassment from when I was in preschool. Wai: Wow! That's a really long time. Brendan: It is, about 20... Wai: Who would have thought preschoolers, hey? Sheesh. Brendan: 20-odd years of being bullied and harassed. But yeah, I think I've just come to ignore it and stuff, and have headphones. You just sort of have your headphones on and just keep walking, and it's so much better. And I do get bullying and harassment as a grown-up gay male, and depending on the situation will depend on how I deal with it, for me to just keep on walking or making a comment back. I'll throw a comment out and it just completely throws them off. Wai: So, you do quite a lot of community work. Why? It's definitely not for the money.[laughter] Brendan: No, one thing is that I like to keep busy. I like to live and enjoy life and try new things, but I think the other part is that I like to get involved and do stuff. I think it's important to get involved in the community and do your bit for it. Yeah, I like to get out and do stuff. Wai: Why is it important for you? Brendan: I think because I've always been quite outgoing myself, and I've always been quite out and proud, and I've also known people who aren't quite out and proud, so I think it's easier for me to get out there and do this stuff in the community to maybe help those people who aren't so out and proud. It might help make them feel more relaxed and okay with who they are. Wai: Like a role model. Brendan: Yeah, a role model. Yeah, and I just really enjoy it. Wai: Did you feel like it was really supportive for you when you came out, as in, did you know it always existed? Brendan: I didn't know that there was so much gay community stuff out there, but I definitely felt that once I got involved with it. I definitely found it was a great support network and a great way to meet other people and a great way to get involved. Yeah, a big queer family, basically, sometimes. Wai: So it was socializing and that kind of thing as well? Brendan: Yeah, yeah. Wai: And what are the other ways that you socialize, not just volunteering in the community? Brendan: I guess going along to other community events which I may not have organized. I go to things like Out Takes and I'm looking forward to the big Outgames here in Wellington next year, which will be fun. Also just going out with mates and going to the movies. Not always just going to queer stuff, but going to just general public stuff, as well. I always love theater and arts and entertainment, so I like to get out to those things, as well. Wai: And would those ways be the main ways that you'd meet people or other gay men? Brendan: Yeah, I guess I do meet gay men that way, otherwise it's through friends. I've met lots of mates and stuff through that way, and could potentially meet a partner or something, but nothing at this stage. Wai: So, as a big sweeping question, as a gay man in 2010, how do you feel that you're treated by others? Brendan: Generally, I'm generalizing, I'd probably say I'm treated fairly well, fairly equally. Maybe not completely equal in some places, but generally speaking, fairly well. Wai: So would you say there's still a fair bit of homophobia in society? Brendan: Yeah. Wai: What does it look like? Brendan: [laughs] What does it look like? Well, it has....[interrupted] Wai: I guess, when you're in drag, or even when you're not in drag, do you fear for your physical safety or is it other forms that homophobia takes? Brendan: Sometimes it's fear for my physical safety. Sometimes it could possibly be more to do with just work. Wai: How do you mean? Do you mean people not giving you jobs? Brendan: Yeah, or not being able to advance as far as you might like to, or as far as you might be able to if you were heterosexual, possibly. Or having more society pressures. It's hard to say. I think a lot of people, if you're not queer you don't think about the queer community and how a campaign or how a workplace activity or something may come off as being very heterosexual, hetero-driven, I suppose. Wai: So, doing a whole bunch of community work, as well as being in quite regular contact with young people who are requiring support or coming out and all that kind of stuff, what are some things you'd like to change or have society change or change in society? Brendan: I think one thing we do that would be good here would be being able to get married. Civil unions are a good step, but it's not... Wai: Not the same. Brendan: Not the same. Being married is different. It's still not quite equality. And I guess also things around adoption and other areas we could change, and also this gender identity stuff and updating and making things a bit more flexible. Wai: Law-wise? Brendan: Yeah, law-wise and just with forms and toilets and stuff. They're very gender-binary, and it would be good to be able to open that up a bit more with unisex toilets, or instead of just having male and female, having male, female and other, and then you'd be able to put in what you identify as. Or do it as a scale option from male to female and you put yourself somewhere on the line. Wai: So, some legal things and some practical things that could change. What about attitudes? What are some attitudes that you'd like to see changed? Brendan: I definitely think some attitudes could change. I think there are still a lot of attitudes around sexuality and gender identity. Wai: Still, in 2010. Brendan: Still, yeah, and assumptions that are made. Wai: So, generally about being straight or gender expression, as well? Brendan: Yeah, or about fear and gender expression and stereotypes. Wai: What are some of your thoughts on stereotypes? I remember coming across someone saying that the really camp gay guy is just propping up the stereotype, and the really butch lesbian is just propping up the stereotype. Brendan: Yeah, it's still going, because I must admit I do generally fit quite well into the gay stereotype. I don't know if it's so much a choice, it's just who I am, but I also know there are lots of queer people out there who don't fit into stereotypes and don't fit into the camp gay stereotype and the butch lesbian stereotype, and I don't think we should have to. And I think there are a lot of people out there who don't realize that sort of thing. Wai: So, more about just being able to express your gender how you need to. Brendan: Yeah. Yeah, I think there's also similar to racial stereotyping. I think there's a lot of that, as well. Wai: So, what are your great plans for the future? Will you continue doing School's Out or community work or working with queer youth? Brendan: I think on the queer youth side of things, one of my ideals would be to have a drop-in youth center, where youth could come 24/7 if they were out for the night and didn't have a way of getting home, or had been kicked out of home, or were just too out of it to make it home, or just needed somewhere to go, it would be a nice, safe space. And we'd hold meetings there and have access to facilities and all sorts of stuff. That's one of my dreams - my ideas. For me, I'm not sure. To continue with youth work. To continue with my other passions. Wai: What are your other passions? Brendan: Costuming and fashion have been one of my longest-standing passions. I guess drag is another passion. I really like modeling. Hmm, too many. Lot's of things on my plate. Wai: And do you see yourself leaving Wellington anytime soon? You grew up here, didn't you? Brendan: I did grow up here. I like the idea of possibly being overseas at some point, and in particular, exploring Europe. But yeah, I'm not sure. I take things one day at a time and see where I end up. Wai: And if someone was to want to get in touch with School's Out, either a parent or a young person, how would we find you, or how would we find School's Out and your other... was it LGBTI Sandwiches or GLBTI Sandwiches? Brendan: Yeah. For any of the groups I've mentioned, the easiest and most direct way to get in contact with me is through the work phone number, which is 027 763 9793, that's 027 763 9793. You can also email me at queer_schools_out@hotmail. com or just try googling School's Out. For the GBLT Sandwich you can find us through Facebook. Wai: Awesome. Brendan: Yeah, it's an open group so anyone can join. Wai: And how often do they meet? Brendan: They'll be meeting fortnightly in town, on a Friday evening. It's a nice way to wind down the week. Wai: Yay! Thank you very much for having a yarn with us! Brendan: Yeah, well thank you! Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089168
TITLE: Julz Darroch profile
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VOICES: Julz Darroch
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; Julz Darroch; Wellington; employment; family; fitness; health; lesbian; sport; transcript online
DATE: 6 October 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Julz Darroch talks about exercise and wellness.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Julz Darroch: My name's Julz Darroch. I am a gay woman. I have been Wellington born and bred. I grew up in Newlands, which is a fairly small dormitory suburb. 1972 was the year I was born. I think I was very lucky in that my housewife mother was raising three daughters; I was the middle child. And I have a recollection of her at some stage in my childhood, somehow – and she swears as an adult she had no concept that I was gay – actually letting us know that to be unmarried, not have children, or to be lesbian was not a bad thing. So, that was how I grew up; so while it was in a conservative suburb I always had that feminist awareness, which just meant I had the groundwork to be me, no matter what that was. Gareth: Where do you think that came from when your mother was saying that? Julz: She has her own issues of being an only child raised very quietly, and although she identifies as straight she's not such a fan of the oppression of men. She's a good, old-fashioned feminist, so I think she was trying to undo the damage that had been done to her by just giving us options. And in fact, I was married to a man and I had two children, and the hardest thing I've ever had to do was tell her that I had gotten married because that would be the greatest disappointment, I felt at that time. So, she went the opposite way: you either carry on what your parents do or you do the opposite, meanwhile living a very conservative, middle-class New Zealand existence. Gareth: So, can you recall as a child how you felt when you heard something like that? Julz: No, I can't. I only remember it as an adult, and context. I remember that she did consciousness raising in the '70s, and rebirthing and women's groups and all that sort of stuff. So I think it was just something that was always part of our lives. There were the Sheila Kissinger books and the feminist books around, so it was just part of the landscape rather than one moment. So, I don't think I ever knew it was going on until a little bit later, probably in intermediate. Because we were in Newlands we were told we had to go to Newlands, they'd brought in zoning, and my mother took on the school board to send us to Wellington Girls', not because she wanted us to go to Wellington Girls' but because she wanted to get us out of Newlands. So you can see a little phobia there that she had, of us turning into middle-aged housewives stuck in the suburbs like she was and is. I think her mission was to prevent the evil that she perceived had happened to her happening to her daughters, which is quite interesting. She's still there; she's still married and living in the suburbs, but we're not. [laughs] So from then on I went to Wellington Girls' and got on with my life. So far as fitness goes I have always been a complete couch potato. So I went off and went to college. I wanted to be a journalist or a writer, interestingly enough, which comes a bit later in the story. And then I just left school and did a whole lot of odd jobs. I had a couple of casual relationships with women and then ended up quite early... at 18 I met my husband. We got married when I was 23, and had two children who are now 12 and 10. He knew I was bisexual or gay or not straight. While I was with him I identified very much as his partner. I didn't like the idea of straight, but out of respect to him essentially I was his monogamous partner, so that was my identity. Gareth: Can I just take you back just a wee bit, because when you were going through college that would have been over the period of the Homosexual Law Reform in the mid '80s in New Zealand. Can you recall anything from that period in terms of the Homosexual Law Reform? Julz: I think it was something that I was aware of because while my mother was doing housewife feminism, lesbian feminism was very much part of that, so there would have been a crossover. I do remember being surprised that it was illegal. That had just never occurred to me that it was. There were gay people and it was very odd. [laughs] We didn't seem to be wrong. My parents never told me it was illegal, it just never occurred to me, so I was quite surprised. I think from that pre-adolescent girl, it seemed like a very man thing – older men, I think – probably, though, all of 25 or 30, but from age 10... [laughs]. So, that was my experience of that. Gareth: When did you first start realizing that you liked women? Julz: Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I saw Grease when I was four and I fell in love with Rizzo, and it was actually only about three years ago that I saw her in a program and went: Oh my goodness! I've always really respected Stockard Channing, a great actress. And just for some reason I was watching her and went: I was five. I don't think we were assigned, because once again, being one of three daughters there were no boys in my family except for my very quiet father, so gender roles weren't huge, so I don't think I ever had to consciously make that... it was never presented as a choice, not because the choice was you had to be straight, but I think it was just fairly fluid. And at 17 – that was 15 and 17, too – I was kicking over the traces a little bit. I had a big old blue Mohawk and studs everywhere, so that group of people were fairly fluid anyway, so it wasn't like I was really even making a choice at that stage. It was just part of people you went out with and slept with. Gareth: So, around that time how were those fluid people seen in the wider society? Julz: Probably as reasonably rough, although we're all well-behaved middle age, we were on the edge of little Goths and punk rockers, try-hards in our little first flats sort of thing, so it was all very harmless. I hate to think what it appeared from the outside. In fact, my mother used to get terrible grief in Newlands because she let her daughter walk around like that. She was of the opinion that really your core values weren't determined by the color of your hair. So, as a teenager I don't think I really saw the world from any position other than my own, and we just did what we did and that was fine. And then I met my husband and it was really easy, even at the time. And I actually think there were probably a lot of adults in my life who went: Phew! Oh, she's got herself a man; she's straight. So maybe they noticed something that I hadn't told them and just went: Oh, that's nice. She's got herself a nice man. We can all breathe a sigh of relief. And then we had babies, and I left him when I was 30 because I decided I... It wasn't a terribly unhappy marriage at all, but I just decided I didn't want to face never being with another woman, and it was a monogamous relationship and I didn't want to change that. So for me it was all or nothing, so I chose nothing. I also had a three year old and a four year old, and I think the ultimate decision was based on that I would be raising these children into adulthood, and if I couldn't make a choice that wasn't easy, then how was I going to teach them to make the same choice if they needed to? They may be gay. They may make choices that society doesn't like, whatever they are, and as their parent I would be going: You should do whatever makes you happy. If I'd stayed in a marriage, then I would be contradicting that, and I couldn't do that to my children. I had to be honest, so I left. Luckily enough, I had the most awesome husband who, while was devastated that I was leaving him, actually had no... He said I was leaving him; it didn't really matter who I left him for, whether I left him for a man or a woman. He knew my history, so that's never been an issue and never been an issue with the kids, as well. So, speaking to other women who have left partners and become gay, I think that's a battle I never had to fight, which is brilliant. Gareth: When you look back do you wish you had explored the lesbian side more before you got into marriage? Julz: No. Too much gained – far too much gained. I've got kids and my ex-husband is the dearest person in my life. I've had partners since him who I would have thought I would end up with the same relationship with them as I did, but it's different. Would my life have been easier? Possibly. Maybe I wouldn't have gotten depressed or maybe I could have been stronger if I had identified, but I think it's water under the bridge. You've just got to go with what happened. And when it became strong enough that I needed to go back and reexamine it, I did. So that was the important thing; I think if I'd stayed there that would have been different. That would have been a regret. But when I needed to investigate it I did the honest thing, so no, absolutely not. Gareth: At secondary school, can you recall if there were any out lesbians or gay people? Julz: No. I had an English teacher, actually, who claimed that she'd gone through a period of her life being a misterogynist, which she claimed to be the female equivalent of a misogynist. So, that would be interesting to see where she came in. I do recall in my 6th form year she couldn't come to a production because she was going on a date, and I remember the disgust we all had that she chose a... so, she was obviously straight at that point, but maybe not. [laughs] So, no. Statistics say in a school of 1,000 girls that there was probably one or two. I know now that in my year, which would have been 120 girls, I was friends with two other gay women. I wouldn't have picked it at the time, which makes me think maybe there were definitely some others. No, not even mentioned; I don't think it really even existed as a subject. Gareth: It's interesting as a term you use " gay women." How would you identify yourself? Julz: Lesbian or gay woman. I think lesbian is a very female term whereas gay is an umbrella term for a male and female community, so it's more inclusive. So, lesbian is the female experience, gay is the universal experience, so I'm quite comfortable with either. Gareth: What about words like queer? Julz: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's more modern, for me. That's like a cool new modern word, so yes, I use that and feel particularly hip, like a 20 year old, like the queer youth, so I'm quite comfortable with that and all the other terms, thank you to The L Word, I think, giving us all these special terms, and probably Queer as Folk before that. I don't think any of the words really worry me so far as what we call ourselves, so yeah, gay woman or lesbian. Gareth: Interesting that you'd talk about The L Word as a TV series. I'm wondering, growing up can you recall anything gay or lesbian on TV or in the media? Julz: No, not at all. I think probably like all New Zealand women, there were the Topp Twins. And the interesting thing about TV and things like that, that while there were no gay role models, in my childhood there were an abundance of strong, unattached women. So, there was Laverne and Shirley. I'm thinking of another one, Mary Tyler Moore. So, there were actually these asexual, strong female friendships that, when you think about them, the men were.... They went on dates with men, but they weren't part of the story, and they had the two male friends, as well. So, not specifically gay at all, but strong, independent women, which I think in the absence of actual role models was quite helpful. Gareth: What was it like going to an all-girls' school? Julz: I loved it. I thought it was great. I had been raised in a household with three women and Newlands was not an exciting experience for me growing up. I had a distrust for.... And I think I've always been a chameleon. The fact that you go to play center at three years old, and then you go to school with the same people at five, and then you go to intermediate with the same people and some more people, and then you go to college with the same people, and that can put you very much in a box. So to me, the girls' school was an escape. I don't think I had an option of going to a coed school unless I went to Newlands College. I found it a really, really positive, empowering experience just because all the resources and everything could be women-centered, which worked for me. My mother, interestingly enough, went to Wellington Girls' however many years earlier, left the minute she could and swore she'd never send her daughters there, ever, which she did in the end. But no, I thoroughly enjoyed it. Gareth: Do you know why she didn't want to send you? Julz: Because she had a hideous experience and thought it was outdated, and she just didn't enjoy school, so didn't want us to be repeating the experience that she'd had, which I think I have to give her huge credit for because despite spending most of our childhood saying she'd never send us to that school, we then were allowed to go... actually, no; each of us decided to go there and she let us. I don't know if I'd be so accommodating to my children [laughs] these days if they don't get an option. So yeah, I've always enjoyed the company of women, so for me it just took away the.... I don't actually think it's boys I had an issue with. I think it was the hierarchy, and Newlands College at the time was very sporting and very boy-sie, and I think I had a distrust of that, that they valued sportiness and keeping girls under control, so I just wanted to escape from that, so anything else was better than that – whether it was true or not at the time or that was my perception. It would be interesting to go back. Gareth: So, as a teenager did you ever have a kind of coming out experience or a realization or coming out to parents? Julz: I didn't come out to my parents at all. It's not that I was in. I think my parents weren't part of my life, and it actually wasn't a big deal. It wasn't like this great moment that I'd slept with a woman, and it wasn't an amazing discovery. It wasn't an issue. I think probably I would have come out, but then the husband, or the partner at 18, really negated the need to do that so I didn't. And it wasn't until I left my husband when I decided I should really come out. That seemed like the appropriate thing to do, so I rang my family and said that I was leaving my husband and I wouldn't be with another man, that my next partner would be a woman. And they were like, " Oh, that's nice dear." My mother – you really can't do anything to horrify my mother [laughs], so even that was very low-key. So I didn't have to do the great coming out, although you don't come out once, do you? You come out every time someone presumes you've got a male partner, or as a woman with children there is an assumption that you must be straight because you've got children, because people just don't think beyond that. So, coming out is something you have to do quite a lot. But no, no one great moment, although I did ring them just so I could actually tell my parents. It was a great moment even if they didn't respond with the wringing of hands and crying that one would have imagined. It was all very low-key. Gareth: Did you find it confusing when you fell in love with your husband? Julz: No. I don't know whether I'd actually made a decision on whether I was... I don't think I'd gone as far as going I was gay or straight. The presumption is that you're straight. I think in the world the presumption is that you're straight until you're otherwise, and I don't think I went as far as that, I just fell in love with him. He's gentle. He was, in fact, in some ways a lot less manly than my first partner after him. [laughs] Ironic. So no, it didn't surprise me at all. I think it was a little bit comfortable. I think probably at 19, at 20, I could see the world is definitely a little bit easier as a straight woman or being seen as a straight woman. And my journey through having a male husband and then safely a year after you get married having two very safe children, the world really likes that; it's a really comfortable place to be, safely married with lovely babies. The world loves it. You don't have to explain yourself. As soon as you mention you've got a husband and there's a cute baby there, you're taken care of. I guess they can put you in a box and they trust you and you're safe and not going to be up to anything deviant or illegal. Who knows what they think? But it is very comfortable, and I think I probably enjoyed that, to an extent. Especially when you're not as confident in yourself, it just means you know that no one is going to be asking the hard questions. Gareth: That must be a really fascinating place to be where you can actually see both sides of the coin. Julz: Very much so, yeah. It's quite interesting. It's disappointing, in a way, but it's also interesting how it's such a fight to be visible as a gay person that it can be quite lonely, I think, and I've found I've had periods of my life.... I've actually always been partnered, but having a partner who travels away, and I imagine it's the same if you're single for a long time, that your straightness is never questioned and it's affirmed in everything you see, whereas you can quite happily just disappear as a gay person. It's really easy to disappear, depending on where you work. You've got to fight to have people around you and experiences. It's not like you can turn the TV on and see gay characters or walk down the street and have a chat with the woman in the dairy about the gay experience, so I can see it could be quite lonely, whereas when you're straight, whether your husband or partner is there, you're always visible. Your choices are always being confirmed by everything around you. So, it's a more conscious way of living. I like it. I like it because it's more conscious because you, yourself, have to be affirming your choices, which I think is something that all of us should be doing on a more regular basis. Gareth: You mentioned very briefly before about depression. Where does that come into your story? Julz: The great unanswered question is whether it's something genetic or situational. I have always struggled. I've never identified it because I was the killer mother with the husband and two children, and we don't go there, you know? We're too busy baking cakes. In my 30s it came to a head so I sought help for that. I would say that a lot of my feelings of depression are probably based on feeling invisible, and then if you go back to what I've just said, actually, about being invisible, that that's probably got a lot to do with it. And maybe, in hindsight, being married and choosing that life didn't necessarily assist, in the long term, my mental health. Having said that, it was before I got married that I was depressed and I still suffer from it now, so I guess it's just part of who I am. So, I function, just occasionally I elect not to get out of bed, basically. Gareth: Did you know at the time you were 17 or 18? Could you name what it was? Julz: Depression? No. I've always had a sadness at times in my life. I think because my mother suffered from post-natal depression when I was five, and has had a huge battle all her life, I don't think it's something I ever chose to explore because once you start exploring it I might have identified something that was the same in me that was in my mother. So, I would just be sad sometimes, and more sad other times, and not sad at all and completely manic at other times [laughs]. Luckily I fall quite nicely in the middle-ish of the spectrum, so I don't ever get so down that I can't live, and I don't ever get so high that I'm jumping off buildings, so it's manageable. And I live, very much consciously, a life that looks after who I am, so I don't work full-time and I just look after myself. Gareth: And does this tie in with your experience with fitness and kind of getting active? Julz: Later on. I still question how on earth I ended up in fitness. It makes sense to me now, 17 years later, but at the time, me being a perky, jump-up-and-down aerobics instructor was the complete antithesis of who I thought I was. So, I just got into it because it was a great way of getting thin and jumping up and down in front of other people. Over the past few years, partly after having kids, in the last five or six years, realizing that fitness – fitness is a funny word – exercise and wellness is a whole lot more holistic; but also that the fitness industry has a lot to offer, but it's got huge shortfalls. And because I'm not attached to a brand or have any great aspirations to get incredibly successful within a company, I've had the opportunity to be able to study and investigate depression and exercise and things like that, that you wouldn't necessarily get rich off. So yes, that was very much where my interest has come. And I also work with what I call gay fitness emergencies. Someone very interestingly the other day said, " Is there really a difference between gay and straight people in fitness," and the answer is absolutely not, but just working on that visibility. So these days I do a combination. Behind the scenes I train up people who work in fitness – instructors and personal trainers – just putting in my version that the world is not square; it's not one shape. And then the other half I work in the community working with what I call everyday people, which would be LGBT, depressed people, overweight people, non-exercisers. My assumption being anyone who's perky and jumping up and down in the gym is actually the minority, so everyone the conventional fitness industry doesn't work with or identify with. Gareth: I'm just going to ask you to rewind a wee bit because I'm interested that earlier on you were saying that you were a bit of a couch potato going through school. What happened to suddenly push you into fitness? Was it because you wanted to do the body-beautiful thing? Was it to get exercise? What was the moment where you suddenly thought: I want or need to get into fitness. Julz: I think it probably was an aesthetic thing. I started off, because of course I couldn't have gone out in public because I was very shy in those days, I got the old Jane Fonda, and it was Jane Fonda – yeah, it was, [laughs] I'm that old – and I did it in my lounge, actually. And then decided that I would join a gym and do some classes there, and then decided that I might train up as an aerobics instructor. So it started off very much from there. I didn't have a strong career. I was doing odd jobs, so it was like, well maybe I could make some money out of this. As you discover soon after starting to teach aerobics, as we called it in those days, your body actually can't keep up with doing that for a living, so I thought, well, I'm in this fitness thing, I may as well go and train and become a... they didn't even have personal trainers in those days. So it grew from there. And I've always worked in what I call commercial fitness, which is in membership gyms, and then ended up working through there and ended up managing and owning a club. So I went right through and eventually got my nice, real job. I'm sitting behind a desk, as you do when you work in fitness. So I fell into it, I think by accident, because I wanted to get fit and then it just grew from there. Gareth: Is the fitness industry, in your experience, kind of open, liberal, or conservative? Julz: I would say it's actually really conservative. I wouldn't say it's at all homophobic or anything like that, I just think as a commercial industry a lot of businesses, be they people or big gyms, are focusing on the masses, and I think there is a definite belief that if you specialize too much that you're cutting off. As soon as you advertise yourself as being the gym for a certain type of person then everyone who's not that certain type of person will obviously run a mile and never come in. So I think there's a conservativeness there, probably like every other industry, but I see it as quite conservative. There's not a lot of people taking on great political acts or anything like that. It's a very commercial industry, I think, and with personal trainers and things like that you haven't got people signed up for the rest of their life. People don't need gym memberships; they don't need personal trainers in the same way that they need food or to pay the rent, so it's commercial, and people very much being the one-size-fits-all. That's generalizing, but yeah, quite conservative. I'm a stranger. I'm very odd. I'm a freak in my industry. [laughs] Gareth: Over the time that you've been working in fitness, have you seen any change in attitude towards the way that both men and women perceive their own bodies? I'm thinking that over the last 20 or so years it seems to be that the imperative for having a beautiful body has grown more and more. What are your thoughts on that? Julz: Very much. The interesting thing is, and I've been in fitness for 18 years, that it's actually become – and that contradicts what I've said before – more embracing of.... It's like the body beautiful has become more invasive, but on the other side the less fit – and I've always worked in women's fitness – 15 years ago, we do weights and measures, anyone over sort of 100 kilos wouldn't be anywhere near a gym, whereas now there are people who are very injured, very overweight, now coming into gyms. So, I think it's gone in both directions. The bodybuilding side of things has reduced. I think every second person was a bodybuilder 20 years ago, and that's gone, but I think it's just been replaced by something a little bit different, that's just a different aesthetic. So the concept of perfection has got harder to attain to, but the people at the other end being fed into the machine are a lot more diverse so far as weight and injury and things like that. Gareth: Do you think there's more pressure on queer people to go to gyms and to go for that body-beautiful image nowadays? Julz: Yes I would. I work quite a bit with gay men and it seems to be stronger with gay men. It's the perfect butt, very much; the tightest little pert tushie, so I think yes, it is. There is that perfection. The interesting thing about the media is that we as a general population haven't necessarily changed, but the images we're getting presented have, so I think it's probably not just a gay thing. I think gay men have got more pressure than straight men – I would say, definitely. Women are a little bit different. I think there's more gender fluidness, so for every woman that's trying to be androgynous there are equally women who are trying to be curvy, so there's not one choice of perfection. So, you can choose between two. But it's gotten more difficult. If you think about in the '80s for women, if you think of Cindy Crawford or even Arnold Schwarzenegger, when you look at pictures of them now, how flawed they are compared to today's standards: how much heavier women were allowed to be, how less toned, whereas if you compare to the images now. So I think yes, it is a lot harder. I don't necessarily think that's all a gay thing. I think that's a general population thing, for women especially. I think there's probably a fair bit of politics in my experiences, obviously, as a woman, behind the women's movement that there is a percentage of feminist lesbian women who part of their self-identity is being against all those images. So I think that's quite a strong thing coming through, not all groups. So, I think for women that counterbalances it. Gareth: So, as a fitness instructor, when somebody comes to you and says, I want to look like that, what are your thoughts? Do you push them into that image or do you say no, you need to have the confidence of being yourself? Julz: If someone comes to me and says they want a particular body type, I would tend to actually send them to another trainer because I don't work full-time, and where I work best is with people who can't or aren't interested in attaining perfection. There are thousands of personal trainers and people working in fitness who can tell you to exercise more and eat less, and give you perfection. So if I do get a person who has an image in mind, then I tend to actually talk them through what the reality of that is – that yes, it is attainable, but I think we're not taught, as general people, actually what the investment and the cost is of that perfection; that in order to be, for example in the media, the size zero woman, actually how many calories, how much you eat to actually maintain that figure, and how much exercise you have to do, and yes, it's possible, but what you're signing up for, because I think we get told a lot that all we have to do is eat less and exercise more and we will attain perfection. And the reality is that you're trading, potentially, for a lot of the looks, especially the very lean look and also the big muscly look, you're trading a fair bit of health to get that perfection. When your business is being famous and you're making large quantities out of making movies and being in the media then it's a fair trade. Stop eating and make hundreds of thousands of dollars; that's a perfectly reasonable choice to make. For the average person it's a question of whether it's worth the investment. It's like All Blacks and high-level sports people; their bodies generally are ruined by being competitive sports people, but that's okay because you get paid a good amount of money and you can pay for the surgery later [laughs]. If you're not getting that pay packet, then perhaps do a cost to benefit analysis of what osteoporosis is going to cost you, or knee reconstructions and things like that. I'm a bit of a realist when it comes to that sort of stuff. Sure you can have it! Sure you can look like Cameron Diaz, just give up food. Gareth: I'm wondering if we could just cover if you had some advice for queer people, and maybe we should break it into age groups like young, middle-aged, and older people who have never done a lot of exercise before. What would be the advice that you would impart? Julz: I think for all age groups, for everyone, is that when you're not exercising and you start exercising it feels like crap. And that's not because you're completely feeble and unfit, that's just because that's what happens when you exercise. I think, once again, we get fed those lines that you just run around the block five times; we run around half a block and it feels so terrible. So, just expect that it's not necessarily easy. That doesn't mean it's not worth it. So far as aesthetics and looking at the perfect body, what is marketed as perfection can be quite difficult, and our brains are really, really smart things that work independently and can affect the way we see ourselves. With media we could see people that look like us, they could be exactly us, and we would judge them less harshly than we would ourselves. And I think depending with gender identity, as well as sexuality, there's a whole different set of standards that we aspire to, and just being a little bit realistic about it. It's about improving your life rather than looking perfect. Exercise on its own is good fun, but it you're only doing it to look perfect, that's the only motivation, it's really difficult to keep it up. Gareth: In your experience, why do people do it? What are the main motivations? Julz: I think most people start exercising, if they're not starting young for sporting reasons or it's been a natural part of their life, it's to make up for an inadequacy in themselves, be that too wobbly, too skinny, too fat, too red in the face when they walk up the stairs. People stay exercising because it contributes positively to their lives. The trouble is, is that being in a headspace of starting to exercise because of an inadequacy in yourself is not a good motivator to keep going. I think that's one of the biggest shames of the fitness industry is that it is or has been based on people feeling bad about themselves and having to fix it, when really we should be focusing on how good we are, and therefore we deserve to live a little bit longer and have an easier life by exercising. So, I think it's a little bit mixed up like that. That's something I work with a lot myself. I work with home-program people who aren't confident, wouldn't set foot or find exercise outside, but they'll do it in their own homes because they're not confident enough – they don't deserve to go to gyms. And I think that's a huge shame that that's how we've set ourselves up. So the way you start is not necessarily the way to continue. Gareth: So, you were managing a gym, but now you're doing personal training. What happened there? Julz: I ended up behind a desk doing purely office work, which was not that much fun. I was part owner of a business and I got another person in to help me out, and this person made it more and more difficult for me to exist in the workplace. Basically my options of remaining in the business became more and more limited. It came to a head when I got offered an amazing opportunity, which was based in part on my personality. They identified it as my quirkiness, because I did ask, " Why have I got this thing?" " We think you're really quirky!" And this woman took me aside and suggested, very firmly, that I was not a good role model, my way of being was not appropriate, that I represented something other than what I should represent. It became very clear that she had issues with my sexuality; not something I'd ever come across that directly. I think we kind of can live in a bubble and that a lot of people who are homophobic will stay out of our way, which is quite nice actually. So I had to make some decisions to save myself. That was the defining moment: that essentially, apparently, members were fairly disgusted about my sexuality and people had been making comments, and I don't know, I had a funny haircut that was inappropriate and apparently tattoos are not a good representative. I had to question her at the time, because I did ask her what it was about a 35 year old woman with two young children; what was not average about that? But it did turn out that it was my sexuality. I did call her on it; I chose not to take on a legal battle out of misplaced loyalty to the other people involved. You know, you earn a living, you've got children to protect, and I actually didn't trust what the outcome would be. I was also, having been bullied for the six months prior to this, I was not in a good state, so I had to leave. And I think from that point I still had my family, but career-wise I was a clean slate. I was sitting in my lounge with no income, and a huge disappointment, I think, at the complacency of the people that had let that happen. They weren't in the room, but everyone knew what was going on, but protected themselves. And while you can see how that happens and I don't blame anyone, I think it left me pretty disappointed about being part of a big machine. So I made a couple of decisions. I decided that the way I was was to be celebrated. It's not something I'd ever had to question. No one in my life had ever had an issue with my sexuality. I'd never come across that at all. So, suddenly I saw that people potentially had issues, and I had two options. One was to go into a closet and the other was to say, actually, this is not how I want to live. So I decided to not work for a brand again because when you're responsible for a brand then you have to kind of shut up, potentially, for the good of the brand. And I was going to have my sexuality written on my website, so anywhere I worked or any work I chose to take on or anyone who chose to employ me or contract me was doing so in the knowledge that my sexuality and my individuality were something they were choosing. So then they had to choose to have me. It wasn't that they could accidentally get all my parts: my depression, my sexuality. And it's not just sexuality, but they actually had to jump over that hoop before I would invite them into my working life. So that was a huge discipline, but through doing that I've had amazing opportunities and done some cool stuff, and that's why I've ended up working with depression and things like that, because just as you take sexuality as something that is " other," that in the world, most of the world is " other." There are the happy people and then there are the other people who are mentally ill and depressed and anxious. And then there is the dominant culture, and then there are the people of other ethnicities and other colors. So, I reversed it and went: I'm only going to work with " other," and that's worked out so far. So, [I'm] not rich, but very much in exercise I was lucky I had a partner who was able to support me for a time. Obviously you wonder [about] living in a car on the edge of the street, so I could still have a house. But that was a really good experience. And having the fact that, because of the experience with this woman, I had pretty much hit rock-bottom, having to actually claw my way out of that at the same time, I had some amazing opportunities that came up. One of the core issues with this person in my workplace was that I got a job working on the Good Morning show. That was what she had an issue with, because I was going to be on the TV. I don't think she thought that gay people should be allowed on the TV or anywhere in public. So, that was brilliant, too. So I had things like that that kept me going, and then picking up clients and personal trainings. Actually, I've ended up doing very little personal training these days; I do quite a bit of writing on non-traditional fitness. So instead of writing for fitness magazines I write for all the magazines people who aren't fit read. And I do some work with training other trainers, which is just me behind the scenes actually educating the people in the industry about the fact that most of the people they're dealing with are potentially " other," as well. Gareth: Speaking of celebrations and pride, we've got the Outgames coming to Wellington next year in March. What does the Outgames, and also the conference and everything around the Outgames, mean to you personally? Julz: I think it's awesome. Wellington, and I know the team that are running the Outgames have been working towards it. It's been really interesting being in Wellington and watching, because every January, February, we've got the Out in the Square and that has been getting bigger every year, with the Outgames being the jewel in the crown. I think it takes it away from just being a party and just being a social event, which is absolutely awesome, but adds a whole different level to it. It's international so that will bring in a whole lot more people. And I think also, being sporting, it's really easy for people to go that's just those so far as visibility; that it's like the Mardi Gras factor: Ooh! Let's go see all of the colorful queer people in the Square. We don't need to go to the museum this week; we can just go and pick up some local culture. I think it takes it out of that and puts a new angle, not that we need to prove ourselves to the outside world, but I think any visibility is good,And I think having sports events that are queer friendly is huge, because I've worked a little bit with gay men who have struggled with the macho images, and their experience of exercise and sport has been defined by feeling like the 98 pound weakling. So, I think this gives an opportunity for perhaps the next generation to see that and not be defined by that. And it's also not just very competitive with things; there are the non-competitive things as well, which is not very much a feature of big sporting events like that – it's all about being the best. It's good that there's that mix of the two. So I think it's amazing. They're doing such a good job; it's all over the place. And the fact that they've got my photo, and my partner's, on the front page of the website also adds to the... you know... [laughs]. Gareth: Hey, just finally I'm wondering what you think in terms of health, well-being and fitness, what are the biggest issues facing queers today? Julz: I think for a section of, let's start with women, going back to what I said before about the anti-aesthetic in segments of the lesbian community, I think that can be potentially a hindrance to the positive aspects of fitness. Things like cancers, and I think once again the experience of perhaps older women not wanting to go and get health checks makes you more prone, if you're concerned that your doctor is homophobic then you're not going to necessarily be as honest. And I can imagine for gay men, so far as more disease prevention and things like that, that if you're not comfortable talking to your doctor then things can be missed. Other than that I think it's the general issues that we all face so far as health, which is the fact that we can buy anything we need food-wise, so there's far too much good food in the world and far too many cars and things like that and sedentary jobs, and I think that's universal. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

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ATL REF: OHDL-003855
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089149
TITLE: Mike Bryant and Esme Oliver
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Esme Oliver; Mike Bryant
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 2010s; Esme Oliver; Mike Bryant; Pink Shirt Day; Roger Smith; Wai Ho; Wellington; gay; lesbian; media; queer; radio; school; transcript online; youth
DATE: 26 April 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Mike Bryant and Esme Oliver talk about being young and queer. This podcast was funded by a generous donation from Roger Smith.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Wai Ho: So, I'm here with Mike and Esme in a park with a piano. Hello! Esme Oliver: Hello. This park used to be a prostitute park, and then it was Zeal the Youth Club, and now it's just kind of here. Mike Bryant: With piano. Wai: Lovely! You have both just come from a radio show. Tell me a bit about that. Mike: No. [laughs] Esme: Well, we host a radio show called Queer Zone on Wellington Access Radio. Mike: That's a very inventive name. We chose it for its originality. Esme: It's part of a group of shows called Youth Zone, which are about radio made by youth for youth, and they wanted a queer-specific one, because there are lots of just general youthy ones, and so we... Mike: Youthy? Esme: Well, you asked us, actually. You got a push to ask someone and you chose us. Wai: Yes, that's correct. Mike: Because we are pretty magnificent, aren't we? Esme: Yeah. Wai: So tell me about how I asked you. Mike: Well, you said, " Would youse guys like to do a queer show?" And we said, " Sure!" And then we did.[laughter] Esme: And we've been doing it I guess for about a year now, or something. Mike: I think so. I'm not entirely sure about the dates. I've always forgotten. Esme: And we've had various people come along and do it with us. We used to have Maria. She did it with us for several months. Mike: Yes, and Yulia who did it for a couple of days. Esme: Yeah, and earlier this year I had to stop doing it for awhile because of school, but we've just recently changed time slots so now I'm back, but we had Brendan for a while and he's still around. Mike: Yeah, and I've basically been getting in... Brendan's been my permanent fixture along with me, but we've also been getting in a different person every week. Not even a special guest, really, just a random co-facilitator thing. Esme: But we do try and get interviews and guest spots from people who are kind of something to do with the queer community, or something in support of the queer community, or something that's just of interest. Mike: Like today we had two people from a musical come along, and it's not a particularly queer-focused musical, but it was.... Wai: But you just like musicals. Mike: I love musicals, so I thought why the hell not? Esme: And I mean, plenty of people like musicals, and they were saying the musical has a slightly queer sub-story to it, anyway. Mike: Yeah. Yeah. Wai: So, do you just have interviews or is there other stuff? Mike: We do weekly segments that we have, and we do it every week. Like, we have Celebrity Crushes, and normally we have a boy and a girl, but that's sort of flexible to our desires and our lasciviousness of the day. Esme: Today I had four crushes, so... Wai: Four! Wow. Mike: She's greedy. She's greedy. Also we have a thing called Dear Madonna, which we sort of talk about what's pissed us off that week, in a light and humorous way. Esme: Yup. Mike: And we have Top 5, and we normally pick something and we do a top five of it. Like, we will have top five favorite Disney movies, or top five favorite bands or something. And today it was top five favorite pink things, to tie in with Pink Shirt Day. Esme: And we also play a lot of music and just hang out and just talk, really. We don't necessarily sit down and go, okay, we're going to talk about this queer issue or whatever. We talk about whatever is going on for us at the time, and because we're all queer we all come from a queer perspective, that obviously plays a slant. And I mean, I don't think we want to make it overly queer, because.... Mike: We want everyone to be able to listen. We don't want people to tune in and be like: Oh, they're talking about anal sex again. I don't want to listen to this. Esme: [laughs] Yeah. And plus, I can only talk from a personal point of view, but I'm queer and it doesn't dictate my entire life, you know? Mike: Yeah. Esme: It's like a lot of people say a lot of bands who are classed as Christian bands talk about how they come from a Christian life view, and so that obviously influences their music, but they don't classify themselves as a Christian band. I see that the same way with my sexuality. It's like I come from a queer perspective, but that doesn't mean that everything I do is queer, you know? Mike: I think that the point of it is more that we want the ability to sort of make talking about queer things okay, rather than having to talk about queer things. Esme: Yeah. Yeah. Mike: I think we want it to be a place where people can listen if they want, for queer stuff, or it's just a really relaxed show, and I think that's one of our main attributes. Esme: It's not preachy, and that's good because so much stuff that's aimed at queer people is really preachy. Mike: Yeah, and it's like: We want marriage and children and...! And we're just like: We want to talk; we want to be able to bullshit for hours on end. Wai: So do you think being queer today, for both of you has changed? Oh, well, I guess you weren't around then so you wouldn't know, but.... Mike: Well, back in my day.... [laughs] Esme: I think a lot of the stuff I've heard, especially about the queer rights movements and stuff like that, you had to stand up and say: This is who I am. I am a gay man, or a lesbian woman, or whatever, and this is all that I am and I have to stand completely behind that. And I think now, because there is so much more acceptance... Mike: It's still awful. Esme: There are still a lot of problems, but I think it's more about... Wai: What would be the problems? Mike: School mainly, I think.[laughter] Wai: Oh dear. That old chestnut. Mike: I think that being queer in school is one of the hardest things, and I've heard that even from people of the older generation, or who have just come out recently. They're all like, coming out at school or being queer at school would be the hardest or has been the hardest thing. Wai: Even in 2010? Mike: Oh, definitely. Esme: The thing that I always say is that high school, especially, is like a microorganism of what society is like, you know? Mike: It's a little world. Esme: It's this tiny enclosed little world with all these people who are like a hyper-version of everything they would be in the outside world. Mike: Wow! Esme: Everything's so much more intense within high school, and there are so many more lines drawn. You have to be this or you're that, or, you can't be that because then you can't be this, you know? Wai: I kind of thought there was this, not a stereotype, but a perception that schools today or young people today were really open and really no boundaries, really gender fluid, and that kind of thing. Mike: School environments are very judgmental and they're very compartmentalized. You have to... Wai: Or does it depend on your school, as well? Esme: Well, yeah. Mike: To an extent, but I still think that it's a hard thing to be out at school because they are so based on stereotype, and everyone at school is a bastard, you know? Esme: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah – kids are cruel. Mike: Yeah, even when at school, I was a total ass. Wai: So did you both have a hard time? Well, you're still at school Esme. Esme: No, I'm at uni now. Wai: Oh, you're at uni! I see. Esme: I didn't have too bad a time, but I've always been one of those people who stood separate from the crowd and didn't really care. There are a lot of people who do care and take all that stuff to heart. And just to go back to the previous point, a lot of people do think that school today is a lot easier because they look at society and they see that it's so much easier than when they were young, but no one understands what being a high schooler now is like unless they are one. And society can be a lot more accepting, or not openly opposed or anything, but school is not going to change for a long time unless a lot of stuff is done. Wai: So, is being queer not an issue anymore now that you're not at school? Mike: It is an issue, and I think that homophobia is like racism. It's always around, and it's bad form to... Wai: So you might not get beaten up in the street, but people still... Mike: Yeah, and it's bad form to insult it, and everyone frowns upon it, but I think that everyone still has these little prejudices and little ideas of what things should be, and it's very hard to see outside of what their ideas are. And I think that's the main problem. Esme: And I think it's almost worse now, because when it was clear that you couldn't come out or else you'd get the crap beaten out of you or whatever, you knew where the boundaries were, you knew where the lines were, you knew how that worked. But now, because it's so pushed under the carpet, because you're not supposed to say you hate gay people or whatever, I think it's a lot more vicious and a lot more poisonous because it is those secret whispers, it is those behaviors that you can't pinpoint and say, that's homophobia, because people don't want to show that they're homophobic. Wai: But it still affects you. You can still tell? Esme: Well, it's still behavior that stems from homophobia, but no one does it blatantly enough for you to be able to... Wai: What is it? Is it a look or do people kind of...? Mike: When I came out the thing I had a problem with was suddenly I had a lot more friends, and I was sort of looking around and they still were uncomfortable with a lot of queer things that I said, and I think that they suddenly sort of attached themselves to me so that they could look accepting even if they were not necessarily. Esme: Yeah. Yeah. Wai: So is it kind of like because they were friends with you, therefore they couldn't be homophobic? Mike: Yeah, yeah. Esme: Yeah. Wai: And so it excuses all their behavior? Mike: Yeah. Esme: I think also the other side of the coin is people sort of deciding not to be friends with you, and it's not necessarily outright said it's because you're gay, but it's kind of... Wai: So has that happened to you? Esme: Yeah, I've had a lot of the girls at my school wouldn't be friends with me or would sort of avoid me because I came out really young. I came out in year 10. Wai: Which is 14? Esme: Yeah, 14. For me, it was 13. So that sort of colored who I was all through school, and there were girls who would just not get to know me even though I was friends with their friends, they would purposely not get to know me. If we were hanging out in a group they would avoid me because they just didn't want to know, you know? Mike: Another thing for me was that I had people who were like, " Well, I'm fine with gay people, but he rubs it in my face, so I don't want to have to deal with him," and I'm like, you know, I have a right to talk about my boyfriend occasionally. And I think that's it – if you talk about who you're with or if I said to someone that I have a crush on this guy and I think he's really cute... Wai: They see that as rubbing it in their face, rather than just talking about your life. Mike: Yeah, they'd see that as me sort of dancing naked semi-naked going I'm gay! I'm gay! I like it up the bottom![laughter] Esme: It's also that other thing that I would find if I would ever admit to having a crush on a straight girl, everyone would be like, " But she's straight. You can't have a crush on her." I've had a crush on guys who I've later found out to be gay. That doesn't stop me from having a crush on them, and people just want you to stick to your own kind and not really talk about it. Like, they're okay with it in theory, but when it's in practice it's not. Mike: And then there's also the: I'm gay. Do you have a crush on me? Ah, no. Well, why not? Esme: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Mike: It's a major double standard. Esme: I remember very clearly, I think it was 4th form, and we were having a party. We were all hanging out at my friend's place, and we were playing Gay Chicken. Do you know the game? Wai: No. Mike: Yes! Yes! Esme: Okay, you start at someone's foot and you start touching them. Mike: It's such fun. Esme: So, you can either start at their foot and work your way up, or you can get close to a kiss or whatever, and the person who pulls away first is the gay chicken. Mike: For some reason I always won. Wai: So, you do it with someone of the same gender. Esme: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And me and this girl who is actually quite a good friend of mine were picked to go, and I remember really clearly we were getting really close and then she was like, " No, no, no! I can't do it. You'll get off on it," and I was like, " Excuse me?" Mike: I already have. [laughs] Esme: But it's like, she's one of my best friends. I don't see her sexually at all, but she couldn't separate that line. She had really close guy friends and she couldn't understand it was the same thing for me. And I think it's that kind of assumption... Mike: It's kind of sad, really. Esme: Yeah, it's that assumption that you immediately like every guy or every girl, which is ridiculous. Mike: And then there are some of us who actually do like every guy.[laughter] Wai: So what are the kinds of things that you'd like to change in society if you were given a magic wand or something? Esme: I think I would even the expectations for queer people and straight people. Like, a straight person isn't always expected to have a boyfriend or to always be talking about... You know, change those expectations and also change the... I don't know how to phrase this next thing. You talk for a bit. Mike: [laughs] Okay, I'll talk out of my ass. I think what Esme is trying to say, or what I'm trying to say – I don't know, I'm not going to speak for you... Esme: Speak for me if you want. Go for it. Mike: No, I won't because I'll be wrong, and you'll tell me that. I think for me, I sort of don't want to lose the difference or the quirkiness that gayness is seen as, because I kind of like that. I like the fact that we're sort of our own thing. Lots of people want to just enter normal society, and I'm like, no, I want to be seen as a sub-thing of society. I want to be seen as the queer community because I like the gay community, and I like it being as it is. But it would be nice to be, as Esme was saying, accepted, so that if I came out to someone they wouldn't think I would instantly like them. Esme: And it wouldn't be like: Oh, I have a cousin who is gay! Would you like me to set you up? Mike: Yeah, and it's like all gay people have sex, so they don't think that I'm going to go out and have sex every night. I'd like to be seen as gay, but I don't want to be seen as fitting a stereotype or anything. I don't want them to go, oh, he's gay because he acts like this and he looks like this. I want to be known as gay because I like guys. I think that's sort of the…Esme: I think it should be changed so that straight guys who are a little bit camp shouldn't immediately be assumed to be gay. Just coming back to what you were saying about keeping the community... Mike: We're like a news interview! " Coming back to what you were saying...." Wai: Will you tell us about the weather, as well? Mike: Hello, my name is Sunny Showers. Esme: There are a lot of ethnic groups who are a part of society, but they also have their own community and their own celebrations, and so I think it should be like that. It's perfectly okay to be German in a New Zealand society, but you might also go and wear lederhosen and do strange dances with your family, and that's okay. I think it should be like that for gay people. Like, it's okay to be gay at work or wherever, but you can still go and dance with a bunch of guys or girls or whatever, and it would be fine. Mike: You'd know this too, because you're from Malaysia. Is it Malaysia? Yeah. And you identify as a Malaysian New Zealander, and as a queer woman. And being Malaysian New Zealander is its own thing. You're not just a person; you're a person who is also a thing. It should be that I'm a person who is also gay. Wai: So, how do you involve yourself with the queer community or gay community? Mike: Lots of sex and drugs. Wai: Of course. Mike: Yeah, massive orgies. Esme: We go to high schools and we recruit, as well. That's a big part of our job. Mike: We're big Satanists.[laughter] Esme: Yeah, massive orgies and human sacrifice. Wai: Oh great, so all of that, and obviously you do the Queer Zone. Esme: We do the radio show. We do the radio show. Mike: We're technically on the committee for Wellington Gay Welfare Group in Wellington, but we never go. Esme: Yeah. Yeah. Mike: But we're on the committee! Esme: We both volunteer at Out in the Square every time. I do stage managing for it, and I've done stage managing for other queer theatre stuff. I think for me, more than being part of this committee and this committee, and I do this, this, and this... Mike: Oh, sorry. Esme: No, no, no. That's good too. I'm absolutely not dissing that, because that's a really powerful thing to be using those tools to work for all the things we'd love to have. But I think for me, part of being part of the queer community is going to things like School's Out, which is the youth support group we are part of. Mike: Yeah, and socializing. Esme: Yeah, I think it's just about socializing with other people who identify as queer – people who sort of get that part of your life, you know? Mike: It's totally a social thing. It's like if you're a pregnant woman, you want to go to pregnant woman groups and meet up with other pregnant women so that you can connect. I don't know why I'm using pregnant women as an example. Esme: So, queer is a temporary state?[laughter] Mike: Oh, no, but you know.... Esme: A temporary medical condition. [laughs] Mike: I'm trying to be serious for once in my life and you're ruining this for me! Esme: I'm sorry. Serious business faces. Mike: [makes a raspberry noise] What was I saying? So yeah, but it is like being German. You would want to go in a certain group and wear lederhosen all day. Wai: So it's like a socializing thing and meeting other people. Mike: Yeah, but there is also the charity aspect. Like, if you.... Wai: Is volunteering important for you? Mike: Totally. Esme: I think for me it's important, but not as a queer person, but as a humanitarian. Mike: I do it because it's fun, and it's a way to meet new people. I go out and I collect for AIDS day; Esme and I both do it. You get in the room and you meet all these people you've never met before, and you can use it as a socializing tool as well as doing good for other people. And that's sort of how we're in the queer community, just by being our nutty selves and being in the things. Esme: I don't think you have to go to gay bars, or you don't have to volunteer at AIDS day or whatever to be a good queer person. Mike: Although if you want to, it's perfectly acceptable. We're not going to judge you. Esme: Right, but those aren't requirements for it, but it's things you can do to sort of be a part of the community. Mike: But you do have to take a test. Esme: [laughs] Yeah, yeah. You get a report card. Mike: And a license, and it tells you.... Wai: And what do you get tested on? Mike: Well, whether you like the color lavender is a big one. Spice Girls and pop music. Wai: Hot pink? Mike: Hot pink, yeah. You've got to be able to see someone with a big dick from 10 miles away. Esme: [laughing] I can't do that! Does that discount me? Mike: If you're a gay woman you can't shave your legs, and if you're a gay man you have to shave your legs.[laughter] Mike: So, both of us are out, I think. Wai: Talking about stereotypes, do you think they still exist? Obviously, mainstream still thinks it's a thing, but do we have it within the queer community? Esme: Yes. Mike: Yeah. Esme: Oh, definitely within queer communities. Wai: And how is it different from what mainstream does? Mike: Like, you'll see lots of people and they're like: Oh, she's trans. I don't like her because she's trans and she freaks me out; or, he's a drag queen so he must be a bottom, and he must do all this stuff and he must not be a proper man. Wai: So we're still prone to a lot of the same stereotypes? Mike: And also because I am fat, I'm of bigger build, I'm a fuller-bodied male, I'm instantly put into the bear category. And it's like, I'm not a bear. I'm not a walking carpet. You know, there are still the bears and the twinks and the mega femmes and the whatever they are. Esme: And for me, I justify myself as queer, but I am attracted to males and females. I date both males and females. Mike: Greedy! Esme: I think that the straight community thinks that as a queer girl who wears Docs, immediately I'm a lesbian, and if a guy ever does want to date me it's just because I'll have sex with girls in front of him or something. I've actually had that experience of people expecting that of me. And in the queer community I always get called a fag hag. I've had that quite a lot. Or, I'm straight but pretending, or I'm just experimenting, or whatever like that. And it's like, actually no, I've known I've liked girls since I was a kid, but I do like boys as well. Wai: What do you think is up with that? What do you think is up with all the judgments or the assumptions? Are people just bored? Mike: From the queer community, I think that because a lot of us feel that we're being judged our whole life we sort of feel it gives us a right to judge others, and that extends to people in our community. I think that a lot of people who judge in the gay community, so like if Esme and I were really judgmental and we were stereotypical, and this person has to be a bear or this person has to be a twink, then I think we would be judging straight people just as much as we judge gay people. I think it is a defense mechanism. Esme: I think especially from the queer community, a lot of the feeling I've gotten is that it was so hard to get acceptance, and you had to stand up and you had to say: I'm a man who loves men, or I'm a woman who loves women. And I think that battle was so hard for so many years, I think someone coming along who could fit into the norm of society, or could go the other way, it's sort of like you don't deserve to be a part of this community because we've fought so hard to form this community, and we want to keep it safe. And I think there's a lot of that worry that it's going to start breaking down the integrity of what they've fought so hard for. And I kind of understand that, but at the same time I really don't. Mike: When I first came out I came out as bisexual because I thought that would... [interrupted] Wai: How old were you? Mike: When I came out the first time? I told myself when I was 11 that I was " bisexual," and I came out to my friends when I was 11 as bisexual. And then when I was 15 I came out to all of my school as bisexual. And then when I was 16 I realized that I was gay, and I came out as gay. So when I came out as bisexual, I thought I'd do that because I thought it would be easier, because that way I would at least be perceived as half normal – not that normal, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.... you know. But also, when I was " bisexual" I found out about School's Out and I was like, well I don't need to go to that because I'm not actually gay, and I sort of felt like I wasn't worthy enough to go to it because I was bisexual, not gay, and it was a gay group. Wai: So this is like a big ranking system. Esme: I found that, too, actually. Mike: I'm not finished, excuse me! I am not finished. [laughs] Esme: Let me say one tiny thing. Mike: No, because I'll forget. Esme: When I first came to School's Out I was scared about saying I was bisexual because of that same thing. Wai: But had you met gay people before who had said...? [interrupted] Mike: No. Wai: That it was just a perception that you had? Mike: I thought it would be easier. And then when I came out as gay, and I was like, " I'm gay," I realized that it was actually a hell of a lot more difficult to be bisexual because you sort of get fired at from the gay community and the straight community, and it's like the straight community are like, you're not one of us, we don't want you; and the gay community are like, you're not one of us, we don't want you. And then you're like, well, maybe I'm trans. And the trans are like, no, fuck off.[laughter] Wai: An unwanted puppy. Esme: I definitely find that, as well. Part of why I just say queer is because if I say bisexual or pansexual or whatever, there is that attitude. And when people find out and hear me talking about hot guys or whatever, they're just like, ah. There's this moment where they're like, oh, so you're not one of us. And I won't name any names, but.... Mike: It was me. I'm sorry. Esme: I was working on this project with a bunch of other queer people, and I never said I was a lesbian to anyone. They just assumed because I said queer. And when the person who was in charge of this project found out that I wasn't a lesbian, but was attracted to all genders, he kind of went a bit funny about that. And then he talked to Brendan, my youth worker, about that and was asking him questions and asking him what he thought about it, behind my back. Wai: So there was a bit of education work getting done. [laughs] Esme: But I was like, how is that even relevant? I'm here working in a semi-professional capacity. I'm definitely queer; I'm definitely part of the community. It's not even relevant. Mike: And particularly because it wouldn't even be any of his business. Even if you are gay, it doesn't give you a right to question other people's sexualities. Wai: But was it a little bit more of kind of: wow, I've never met anyone who didn't identify as gay or straight? Or was it like: wow, how new and fantastic? Or was it a: whoa, that's really whacked, and what's up with that? Esme: No. It was a I don't believe you. Mike: And I think a lot of it is also that when they do believe you, you're also perceived as greedy. Wai: You don't think it's a young person thing, as in: Oh, you're so young, you wouldn't know. You haven't made up your mind. Or do you think it's definitely a bisexual or pansexual or a queer [prejudice]? Esme: I think it's more prejudice against people who aren't just gay. And I think there's this perception of being fake or being indecisive. Mike: Or just experimenting. Esme: Yeah. Wai: How do the rest of your friends, when you came out to them, how did they all [react]? Mike: Most of my friends were really good. One of them went a bit funny for a while. And I've known him all my life and he was mainly like, well why didn't you say anything before? And I think a lot of it was that he was hurt that he wasn't the first to know, because I didn't tell him first because he was my best mate, and it was going to be a hell of a lot harder to tell him this. So I think a lot of it was the hurt. But mainly from my friends and close group of friends, they knew that I was sort of thinking about it, and I think most of them were okay. Some of them, I think, are still uncomfortable with it, and they try to hide it with humor, but they at least put up the front of being accepting. Wai: Fake it 'til you make it. Mike: Yeah. They're not: I hate gays. They're just sort of uncomfortable and they don't know how to deal with it, even though I've been out for years. And they're starting to be fine with it, but they're like, well, you're gay, and they'll mask it with humor. You know, if I say something about an attractive girl, they're like: But you're gay! She doesn't have a penis. Ha, ha, ha! You know, just weird shit like that, and it's fine, they are trying. Esme: I think for me, I was the second in my group of friends to come out as bisexual, and I was quite new to the group of friends. And this other girl who had come out had been friends with these girls since she was like five, and so whatever she said, they were going to have to accept her. And when I came out, it was like they understood that it would have been hypocritical if they weren't okay with it with me, but I think that one of the things that has always kept me a little bit distant from that group of friends is them not knowing how to deal with that. You know, I'm not their friend they've known since they were five, so they don't know me well enough, and it's always been a slight thing that's sort of gotten between the friendships. But I never really had... I had really close friends when I was a kid, but all through high school I didn't really have really close friends until I came to School's Out, because apart from one girl I just never really clicked with people. And I think a lot of that was the queer thing – was that people sort of immediately got this idea about me and kept their distance. Mike: I think that one of the hardest things for a lot of straight people is sort of the feeling that they have to accept it. They're just sort of like: I have to accept it. They don't really get time to actually think about it and come to terms with it themselves. Homophobia is seen as wrong in most circles, so a lot of people may feel uncomfortable about it, and they may have natural prejudice, and they're like: Well, I actually feel this, but I have to act like I'm totally cool with it. And I think that can be hard for a lot of people. Esme: And also when they bottle it up and push it down, it becomes more toxic. Mike: Yeah, they have to come to terms with it. Wai: So do you think there should be like a straight-people group, a straight people support group for coming to terms with it? Mike: Well, there are groups for parents. Wai: PFLAG, yeah. Mike: Yeah, so why can't there be groups for friends? Why not? Esme: Yeah, I think it is such a huge bombshell to drop on anyone, no matter how we feel that it shouldn't be, because it shouldn't be. Wai: Yes, everybody still assumes that everybody's straight, unless they're told otherwise. Esme: Yeah. And it shouldn't be this big bombshell, but the fact is that it is, and I think a lot of queer people get defensive when they come out because it's such a hard thing to do. And if anyone isn't immediately like, " Oh my God, you're gay! That's so fantastic," it's a hard thing to deal with. And I think when people have to fake that, it's really hard for them. Wai: Did any of you... any of you...[laughter] Mike: Which ones? Who are you talking to? All of you! Hey guys, come in here! Esme: Our imaginary friends? Wai: Did either of you struggle with yourselves with coming out? Esme: I think for me, the hardest thing was that I always knew that I was attracted to both genders, and I think for me there was this attitude coming from somewhere that you had to be straight or gay. And that was the thing I struggled with for a few years. It was like, I can't just be a lesbian, and I can't just be straight; I can't fit into those. And that was hard. And then actually in sex-ed classes the idea of bisexuality got introduced, and I was like, okay, I have a label now. I'm okay. And after that I was fine with myself. It was that not knowing that it was an option that was hardest for me. Mike: Yeah, I came out as bisexual because I thought it would be normal. I didn't want to be seen as fully gay. But apart from that, it was only a very vague, vague, vague notion in my head that I didn't want to be seen as fully gay, because it wasn't a decision of going, I don't want to be gay, because I didn't click that I was gay until later. I think it was a subconscious thing. I was going, I don't want to be seen as gay, but really, apart from that minor, vague sort of notion in the back of my head, I was fine with it within myself. I'm too arrogant. I love myself too much to give a rat's ass, I think. Wai: Oh good! So you've both got healthy self-esteems! Mike: That's one word for it. Esme: I think that's two of the things that make us so confident and able to do things like the radio show, and be so welcoming at School's Out, which we are. Mike: And it's what makes us be such great friends, as well, I think. Esme: Yeah, it's because we've always just had this confidence about that. I mean, we've both had minor struggles, but it's never been a huge thing. I mean, I absolutely have sympathy for people for whom it is a huge thing, and I really empathize. Mike: Empathize, and you can totally understand everything that they're going through. It's never affected us as badly in a lot of ways. Esme: I've had some more struggles with different issues in my life, so I can empathize with that. Wai: And it's fantastic that you are both kind of out there on all these committees, and on the radio and everything, so that's kind of that whole role model thing so that people can see: Whoa! We don't have to be sad queers. We can be happy queers! [laughs] Esme: I'm so sick of the gay angst, man. Mike: Yes! Every gay film is like, aaugh, I'm gay, angst, angst, angst! Wai: It's a little bit 2009. Esme: Well, actually there's this movie I was talking about on the radio today, all over the guy who has no angst about being gay. All the angst is about the fact that these two guys just can't seem to make it work. And one of them is an alcoholic. Wai: Oh relationship issues.. So, tell us where we can listen to Queer Zone. Mike: Oh, don't! We always screw up. Wai: If we'd like to listen to you and laugh at you…Mike and Esme [in unison]: Wellington Access Radio, 783 AM. Esme: Monday, 3:30 until 5:00. It's Queer Zone. And you can also find various stuff about us on the website. Mike: We're on Facebook, on Wellington Access Radio - Queer Zone ( http://www. accessradio. org. nz/queer_zone. html ), and we also have an email address that you can email us at. Esme: Which is queeryouthonaccess@gmail. com , that's all lower case with no symbols, and that's queeryouthonaccess@gmail. com . Mike: I'm Mike. Esme: And I'm Esme. Mike: Thank you for listening.[laughter] Mike: Stay cool, New Zealand! Esme: Stay queer! Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

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ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089167
TITLE: Stuart Douce profile
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VOICES: Stuart Douce
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 2000s; Stuart Douce; Wellington; education; employment; school; single sex schools; teaching; transcript online
DATE: 5 October 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Stuart talks about some of the issues with being a gay teacher at a single-sex secondary school.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Gareth Watkins: Stuart, why did you get into teaching? Stuart Douce: I wanted a job where I could sort of help young people and have a job that would help make the world a better place. Gareth: What kind of age were you when you got into Teaching College? Stuart: I was just finishing university so I must have been early 20s. Gareth: And were you out at the time? Stuart: Yeah, I was. Yeah. I was out. I had sort of gone through that whole coming out process and had a bit of a non-serious job. And then I was like, okay, I'm going to kick-start my career now and go to Teacher's College and be secondary school teacher. Gareth: Going through Teacher's College and being out, did that have any challenges for you? Stuart: Yeah, it was a bit strange because I was learning how to be a teacher, but then I had kind of this extra layer on top as a gay teacher, as well, and do I want to be a role model or is it going to be worth the personal cost to me of that, or should I just be closeted and just get on and do the job? Gareth: And how did that pan out? Stuart: I guess as my confidence increased I decided that I would sort of be out and just be me, and if that meant being a bit of a role model for a few students then so be it. But to me it ended up being gay is just such a normal part of my life that it's difficult for me to close off parts of my life during part of my day, so it was just easier and less complex just to be out. Gareth: What was that like at Teacher's College? Did you encounter anything because of that? Stuart: Not really. At one stage I did get put into a school where my associate teacher was gay, as well, and I always wondered if that was just chance or were they trying to help me out? I'm not sure. I always wondered though, because we always had these extra lectures on female teachers in boys' schools and teachers of different ethnic groups in different areas, how they were getting on with teachers in different schools, but there was never a lecture or anything on non-heterosexual teachers and non-heterosexual students. It was all just pretty invisible. Gareth: So, you left Teacher's College and then you went to a single-sex-secondary boys' school? Stuart: Yes. Yeah, it was in the city and that was quite good. I was quite intimidated when I first went there, when I got the job there, because I went to a coed school myself, and it was quite a blokey, real man kind of an environment and I wasn't quite sure how I'd cope with that. But I kind of found my feet after a few years there, and then ended up outing myself just in a classroom environment because of certain words kids were using which I didn't find acceptable. And then it just became another part of who I was. But I think the biggest thing I found working in a boys' school was working out what it means to be a man, and working out what masculinity is, because I went to a coed school and I don't fit a lot of the stereotypes of, obviously, straight people, but I don't feel I fit some of the stereotypes of gay people either. So, I suppose over the last 10 years I have been working out for myself what does it mean to be a man, and what is masculinity? As I see boys in boys' schools grow up and I see boys in coed schools grow up in these different environments, and with our changing attitudes towards what is it to be a man, it's certainly been a really interesting experience in interesting times to be a man. Gareth: Just taking you back to when you first kind of outed yourself at the single-sex boys' school, what kind of words were they using in the classroom that you found so offensive? Stuart: Oh, everything was gay, or everyone's a fag or everyone's a homo. And yeah, it's like a pandemic; it's just all over the place. Every day it's being said and no one is doing anything about it. No one is calling them up on it. Senior management in the schools don't; other teachers don't seem to do anything about it. We've lost the battle and we're just fighting a big war because now it's such a common word. Gareth: What kind of year are we talking when this was happening? Stuart: That would have been maybe five or six years ago, but it's still the case today. If you go into any secondary school, within 30 seconds or a minute you'll hear the word gay or fag or homo or something. Gareth: So, when you heard that, what did you do? How did you feel? Stuart: One particular day I'd just had enough and thought, no, this is just not good enough, and I pulled the kids up for saying it and I just said, " Look, there's at least one person in the room that finds that personally offensive because it affects them." And it didn't take them long to work out who that one person was. Gareth: And what were their reactions? Stuart: Yeah, they were quite apologetic. I think it certainly made them think that they're using these words, and the thing that the kids will always say is, " We don't mean it like that." They don't mean something is gay in the way that we might think it's gay. And I think it just made a lot of them realize that they actually do know gay people; some of their friends might be gay, it's just that they don't actually know that they are. So the message I was trying to give to them was: You could be potentially insulting your best friend or other people around you. If they're not out to you then you could be upsetting some people that are quite close to you without even realizing it by using those kinds of words. That's what I wanted to stop. Gareth: So, after you'd said it, what was going through your head? Stuart: Oops! What have I done? Yeah, because it was certainly unplanned; it was just in the heat of the moment. Maybe I should have just walked out of the room and calmed down and came back in and given them out a detention, or just did what everyone else did which was just ignore it. But I thought, well, I've done it now, there's no going back. And so I just carried on, and of course it didn't take long for it to spread around the school. It wasn't too bad. Some classes wanted to talk about it for a little bit, but within a couple of days it all just kind of died away. People knew about it, and I was certainly open to them asking about it in future years, because it was kind of a rumor and they wanted to know if it was true or not, and then we just kind of moved on. I think because I didn't make a big deal out of it, and I didn't make a big deal about being open about it, they didn't seem to either. So everyone just knew, but it didn't really need to be talked about because no one made a big deal out of it. Gareth: Can you recall any instances where you think you were treated differently because of people knowing that? Stuart: Not really, although I do wonder, because I was at that school for eight or nine years and I never got a promotion, and I wonder to this day if that had anything to do with it or not, you know? I don't know. Gareth: What makes you say that? Stuart: Well, I reckon I'm a pretty good teacher. I reckon I had what it takes to go up through the ranks a little bit after eight years. Most teachers, after a few years you'd be getting units of responsibility for something, and nothing ever came my way. So who knows? Gareth: How did the teaching staff react? Stuart: It was quite interesting because I'd just assumed that they would have known after the kids had known. But it was just one day with one of the PE teachers, I was just sitting around having lunch with him and they were talking about another single PE teacher, and he was going, " You know, he's quite good looking. He's quite nice. If I was gay I'd go for him. What do you think?" So yeah, no one ever made a big deal out of it to my face, and everyone seemed quite nice to me. But I think in a lot of schools teachers are kind of reasonably educated, and they've got reasonably good attitudes and are tolerant of diversity. But I think they sort of are because they're caring people because that's the type of people that are attracted to that kind of profession. So no, I don't regret doing it, but I just sometimes wonder about the personal costs versus the benefits. But yeah, what's done is done. But I think being in a city school helped, too, because the school I'm at now is not in the city and the attitudes are quite different, so I'm sort of quietly in the closet in my current school. Although, I found out there are a couple of lesbian women on the staff and they don't seem to be hassled at all, so maybe one day, but I just like for people to get to know me first, as a person, before finding out those kinds of details which might cloud their judgments about who I am and what I do. Gareth: It's interesting as a gay male, but actually even just as a male in the education system, I imagine that must be quite hard nowadays. Stuart: Yeah, people sort of say that it is, but I don't know if I'm a bit naïve or not, but I think as long as you're just careful to get the basics right and you're in a school environment where the senior management trust their staff, I don't think you'd seriously think you'd get into any problems as long as you had some boundaries that were appropriate and you kept to them. At my last school there were underlying procedures about if you were seeing students one-on-one, if they're in your classroom you just keep the door open, you let another member of staff know what's going on. So as long as nothing is hidden and things are quite open, yeah, I don't think you'd get into any problems as long as you kept your boundaries. And yeah, it's all good. Gareth: Does it ever worry you that even the accusation can kind of ruin your career? Does that ever play on your mind in terms of just being a male in the school system and how people seem to be so willing to jump on the negative angle? Stuart: Yeah, not for me. I've got other things I kind of worry about like: I need to plan a lesson for after lunch and I haven't really planned anything. What am I going to do? Yeah, it doesn't really register in my psyche very much, but I know I've got good, decent boundaries. I know that I work in a supportive environment where people have a lot of trust. I'm a trained professional. I know what boundaries are, so I just don't really worry too much about that. But, I am clear in certain situations; I won't put myself into certain situations exactly for that reason. If I was a PE teacher it could be quite different. You know, I certainly wouldn't be going into any changing rooms or anything like that, whereas the straight male teachers might. And I would think that's fair enough, but for me, I would be a lot more cautious. Gareth: Do you think it's easier nowadays for either a questioning student or a gay or lesbian student in secondary school? Stuart: I'd like to think things are getting easier and easier all the time for young people, and I kind of hope that it is. I think with the likes of the Internet and people's changing attitudes that young people can be more open about questioning and asking, but I still think the hardest thing for the young people to do is actually find that very first person to talk to and say: Hey, I think I might be.... So, yeah, I think it might be easier in some ways, but in other ways, I guess because everything is more open it might be harder because it can be talked about more often, whereas in the past it was just invisible and no one ever assumed you might be gay, because it was so invisible. But now it's not, so people might wonder about people without girlfriends a bit more than maybe they did in the past. Gareth: Is there a lot of teasing and bullying that goes on in school? Stuart: Yeah, I think there is, and I think there's a lot that goes on that we don't see or as teachers we don't know about. I think name calling is pretty chronic. And part of me says yeah, that is wrong, but then part of me says, well it is reality, and if we try and put these kids in a totally safe environment in schools where you're not going to ever experience a bit of bullying they will never build up resilience. So, it's a natural part of growing up is to kind of pick on other people. Without seeming harsh and uncaring, it's reality. It happens, and if it does get quite serious there are certainly avenues that students and teachers and schools can take to stop it. And I think the schools are quite good at stopping it as soon as something is brought to their attention. Gareth: Has a student ever come to you and ever come out to you, or said that they're being bullied? Stuart: Yeah. I had one student come out to me at school that year. That was pretty cool. But I haven't had anyone come up to me and say: I'm being bullied. Gareth: With the student who came out to you, how did you handle that? Stuart: It just kind of caught me by surprise because it was at the end of the day and I was just packing up and ready to go home, and this boy came up to me and said, " Oh, I've got something I want to tell you." And so he just sat down and we had a bit of a chat, and I just kind of did a lot of listening and just acknowledged what he was saying and how brave he was, and just offered him a lot of support and reassurance. Yeah, a lot of support for being so incredibly brave. Gareth: At your first single-sex school were there many out students? Stuart: Oh, no. There was one guy, Josh – he won't mind me mentioning his name. Yeah, he was about 15 or 16, I think, when he came out and that was quite interesting because he was really into rugby, so I think it threw quite a lot of the other boys because to them it was a total shock. Gareth: How did they cope? Stuart: Josh was pretty good. You know, he's a pretty strong, resilient young man so he coped with it fine, but it was the senior management at the school that didn't cope with it. They were like, oh, we don't have any gay kids at this school, and so I think they found it quite tricky to deal with. Gareth: When you say that they said that they didn't have any gay kids at the school, was that said to the students or was that said in the teacher's room? Stuart: Oh, no, it wasn't said but it was kind of implied that we don't talk about that kind of stuff here. Yeah, it was just an area where the senior management just felt uncomfortable and they just didn't know how to deal with it, or didn't know how to deal with it so they just tried and ignore it and hoped it would go away. I know in a later year in a school video that the students made that was shown at assembly, it had some incredibly homophobic images on it with the kids. And I think because of the subject matter that it was kind of insinuating, in my opinion they were uncomfortable with dealing with that in the same way they'd dealt with other things, and they just kind of closed the book on it and turned it off and just carried on as if nothing had happened, which I thought was not really good enough. Gareth: So, do you know how Josh coped in that school environment if he was the only one that was out? Stuart: I don't know, really, because I never actually talked to him about it one-on-on, so I'm not too sure, to be honest. Gareth: Were there any support mechanisms in terms of queer-support school groups or things like that that he could have gone to? Stuart: Not at the school we were at, and if there was I don't think any of the boys would have gone to it, although there's another school in Wellington, a coed school, that does have a support group, and yeah, I think he was quite heavily involved in that for awhile. And I think it's actually better to have those kinds of support groups in a different school than your own school. I still don't think it's safe for young people to be out in school. Yeah, my personal opinion is it's better if they can just kind of keep it to themselves or to their close friends until they've grown up a bit more. It just seems, from my experience, that the boys that I have seen who have come out in 3rd or 4th or 5th form, it just tends to be their whole life, and they tend to kind of turn gay and start dressing differently and just becoming these stereotypes, I guess as they're working out their identity and who they are. You know, they are who they are, and I think they're not that gay. They're still who they are, they just happen to like other guys. But they just seem to go down this road of just becoming this whole incredibly stereotypical gay person and kind of alienating themselves from their parents and from their school and from their peers because these guys have just suddenly turned really weird. I just didn't like seeing it. Maybe it's a phase and they'll kind of grow out of it and they'll become less extreme as they get a bit older and realize that actually, no, they're still who they are, this is just an extra part of them; that they've kind of grown up and it's kind of woken them up. Gareth: I wonder if they are just mirroring what they see in terms of what they perceive as gay culture. What do you think kids would see of gay culture now when they're looking at the TV or on the Internet and stuff. How would you think a teenager would define themselves now if they were gay? Stuart: I think unfortunately the media still keeps portraying these stereotypes, so we keep seeing like Queer Eye for the Straight Guy and Gok, so we're not seeing gay characters in Shortland Street or Coronation Street or whatever, where they're rubbish collectors or they're rugby players or they're doctors or dentists or upstanding members of their community. We're still seeing these stereotype people that are into... and not that there's anything wrong with it, but it's just a narrow view of the gay world. So that's something I would certainly like to see changed, is to be able to show young people that there are gay and lesbian people of all walks of life doing all kinds of different things, and not just the narrow image that's portrayed by the media, which still seems to be the case. Gareth: Do you think you being out at that single-sex school helped other students and teachers? Stuart: I sort of hope so, and I guess part of the reason why I kept it sort of low key and never made a big deal out of it is that hopefully, the thing that I wanted to pass on to the boys at that school was the fact that yes, I'm gay, but I'm actually pretty much the same as everyone else and there's only one area of my life which is slightly different. You know, I'll go and watch the rugby games with everyone else. So that went for the other staff and for the students, is that being gay is just one small part of who you are and it's just one small aspect of your life, and it doesn't need to define exactly, totally, 100%, who you are or what you can do. It's just people accepting whole different ways and a whole different form of different people, and this is my little point of difference for the world, but other people have other little points of difference. You know, I could have been Samoan, but I'm not. So I just think the more young people get experience to different kinds of people the more tolerant they will be of different groups when they grow up, because I'm hoping that the boys from my school, when they go into the world and meet other gay people, they won't be homophobic and they won't be scared of them, because they already know someone who's gay and so they realize it's actually no big deal and they've got nothing to fear and nothing to worry about. And if any of the boys at that school are gay, I hope that I helped them in some way. Gareth: Do you think it would have been different if you had been a bit more out there in your personality? Stuart: Yeah, I guess so, but that's just not me. I'm actually kind of quite shy, and to me being gay is actually quite a personal thing to me because the first thing I think of when I hear the word gay is sex, so that's kind of a personal thing and I don't necessarily want to share that with a whole lot of people that I don't really know. I'd be more comfortable introducing my partner and saying " he," because that's got a whole different focus on it; this is a loving relationship with a partner rather than this person happens to be gay. So yeah, maybe it would be different if I was more out there, I guess more flamboyant, but I'm not, and if I was then I probably wouldn't have gotten this job in this particular school. I wonder that if they had known that I was gay before they employed me, if I would have got the job. Gareth: So, do you think that you were discriminated against? Stuart: I just wonder, just because senior management did seem to be uncomfortable when it was disclosed in the classroom, and I was encouraged just to kind of keep it quiet. So yeah, I do wonder if it did have any bearing on my employment there, but who knows? I certainly don't want to be a victim and say, ohh, I never got promoted because I'm gay, and go down that line, but I guess I'll never know. Gareth: When you did disclose in class were there any meetings between you and senior staff? Stuart: Yeah, pretty much straightaway one of the DPs hauled me into the Headmaster's office and I had to confirm that yes, I was a homosexual. And it happened quite quickly, and if it ever happened again I would actually be quite outraged. I wasn't angry about it until afterwards, and if it ever happened again I would certainly question the need for a meeting. So yeah, it was quite strange, but because it was all so rushed it was like they kind of panicked, and maybe they were thinking something was going to spread around the school – maybe some disease was going to spread and they needed to contain the disease or something. But yeah, I was quite angry afterwards. Gareth: But ultimately you did spend eight years at this secondary school, so there must have been parts of the culture of that school that kind of held you there. Stuart: Oh, look, I loved that school. Even though I'm gay I really like and appreciate the environment that is a single boys' school. It's got high levels of discipline, it's got amazing amounts of tradition, the staff are well looked after and well supported by senior management, the parents really support the school, the students – the boys – love being at school, they just don't always have the discipline to do what they know they should be doing. It's such a great, positive, happy environment to be in. We teachers can really feel that we're making a real difference to these young men, and we're holistically bringing these boys up together and helping turn them into men. And it's a fantastic school. And after working in that kind of an all-boys environment, I think any parents that have young boys I would definitely, definitely get them to consider sending them to a boys' school because it really turns them into young men. It's a really supportive environment for them to work out what it means to be a man. And especially in this age where roles of men and women and masculinity and all that stuff is being redefined, it's a really good environment for these young boys to grow up with some pretty strong boundaries, but also with the freedom to explore and find out who they are. So I certainly loved being in that environment. And even though I'm gay, so I don't sort of fit the kind of teacher you'd expect to find in those kinds of environments, I certainly wouldn't want to go to another school that was kind of new-agey and maybe on the surface more accepting of difference and all that kind of stuff, because that's not the environment I like as much as a traditional school. Gareth: Were they supportive in terms of things like, say, sport and arts, thinking of like music or dance? Was that on an equal level? Stuart: Yeah. One of the things that I was really surprised at with this boys' school was that it didn't matter what the boys did as long as they tried really hard and were successful at it; that was all that mattered. And so, while obviously rugby plays a big part, and rowing, equally so does drama and the arts and cultural activities, which had just as much emphasis on them as the sports. And that's one of the reasons why I was so proud to work there at the school, because even though they had this tradition of rugby as everything, actually giving things a go and being successful at anything was just as important. So the boys that did drama or debating or croquet, because we had a croquet club, or music or were in the school choirs, were considered just as manly as the boys that were in rowing and rugby and hockey. Gareth: Looking at the syllabus, and we're talking from about 2005 to 2010, was there any gay or lesbian or transgender information in the syllabus at all? Stuart: Not really from what I could see, although in the New Zealand curriculum there are certain things that need to be taught, but for a lot of the concepts the actual individual schools and teachers can choose the context. And so like in the health curriculum, for example, there's whole categories on sexuality and discrimination and diversity, so if a teacher wanted to have units of lessons on homosexuality and heterosexuality they could. But I would suspect that a lot wouldn't. One of my friends who's also a teacher who happens to be gay is an English teacher, so he did a gay-themed novel last year for one of his classes, and he said it just caused so much hassle that he's just not going to do it again. Yeah, just one parent complained and that was enough just to make it too hard. Gareth: In terms of sex education at the single-sex school that you were at, what kind of stuff was being taught? Stuart: Well, I ran a health education class for one year, but it was only one period a week, and it was pretty loose in the content so I put a bit more emphasis into sexuality than probably the other teachers did, because we had the freedom to do that. But I think generally it's sort of just glossed over quite quickly. I think the only time it really comes up is when they're looking at STIs, and they'll talk about HIV and that might come up then, but otherwise I think, yeah, it's glossed over pretty quickly, I suspect. Gareth: When you say glossed over, is that because the teachers are embarrassed or the school is embarrassed or the students are embarrassed? Stuart: Yeah, I think possibly a combination of all three. The thing I found hardest with teaching the health class was, especially when we did the drug and alcohol unit, too, was teaching content on that kind of subject matter without having any values, because I thought my role was just to present information and let the students make up their mind. But actually, in reality, I found it very difficult to present information without putting my own spin on it because obviously there are some things I think these boys should and shouldn't do. So I found it very tricky to teach, because even just by talking in the classroom about things like homosexuality you're kind of giving the impression it's okay, which I think is a good thing. But for a teacher that wasn't totally comfortable with that, I guess that would be quite tricky, and because a lot of it is up to the individual teacher and what the teacher is happy and comfortable doing, it may or may not be discussed. Gareth: In terms of support for yourself as a teacher who is gay, do you have any kind of network of fellow teachers? Stuart: Because teaching's a job where an adult... It's unusual in the way that we're an adult, but we don't spend much of our work time with other adults, and so we tend to get a lot of support from our colleagues, perhaps more in this job than other jobs, after school or at lunchtime or at interval. So yeah, as a generalization, teachers have a close supportive network anyway, and I certainly did as most teachers do. My close friends who were teachers and colleagues that I would talk to when I was having problems with certain kids or had other issues that were going on, we would just sit down and have a chat about it. And you realize that it's quite normal for these things to happen, and here are some good strategies to deal with it. In the PPTA there's a gay teacher's network, but once again, because we're such a small minority group, I went to one nationwide meeting and there were maybe 10 people there and I was the only guy. So I think if there are many male gay teachers out there they're sort of quite closeted, is my impression, or aren't out there seeking to meet others for support. Gareth: How do you find that? Stuart: Yeah, it's quite strange because it would be nice to just be able to network with other gay teachers to talk about some of the issues that we face, but I guess it's just part and parcel of being a minority group. There's just not that many of us around. Gareth: To you, what would be some of the key things that you face? Stuart: I think some of the key things that I'd face as a gay teacher would be my personal safety, name calling or bullying that's directed at me that maybe senior management doesn't want to deal with, and just being acknowledged that I'm okay, I guess, and just not being discriminated against when going for jobs in different schools, because teaching is kind of a small network, especially in the subject that I teach, so everyone kind of knows everybody. So, people at my new school knew I was gay; I haven't told them, yet they know, so people obviously talk. My biggest fear is that I would be discriminated against and judged by my sexuality rather than the quality of my teaching. Yeah, that's my biggest fear. I think that's the biggest thing that gay people are faced with. Gareth: Have you ever been bullied? Stuart: I had fag or faggot scratched into my classroom door one day. I had sent a kid out for doing something and he obviously got quite annoyed so he must have had a knife or something on him, so he scratched faggot into the door. So the next morning when I saw it I went to see the DP to try and organize getting that taken off quite quickly, as you can appreciate, and his response to me was, " Is it true?" which I was kind of taken aback by. I just wanted it taken off the door [laughs]. Yeah, that's quite shocking. Gareth: And so what did you say to that? Stuart: I can't honestly remember. Yeah, I can't remember. I think I was in a rush and I was just so focused on: I don't want my period-one class to see that today, even though they knew I was gay. I just wanted the maintenance guy to come and to fix the door up. In the end the maintenance guy ended up being quite a good friend of mine, and he was being really good because quite often at lunchtime I'd go and sit in their work shed with all their other workmen and people that they'd have coming in, and we'd be chatting away at stuff, and every now and then a joke would come up. But it was one of those jokes where they knew and I knew, and they were saying it's okay, and I was letting them know it was okay, so it was a good environment to be in. Yeah, the staff, right down to the maintenance guys, judged people for who we were and what we did, not certain things about our character and personality that we couldn't change. So yeah, they were great mates. Gareth: If you had one wish for bettering the education system for gays and lesbians, both as students and as teachers, what would that be? Stuart: My wish would be that principals and headmasters willingly accept that there are gay people and lesbian people in their schools, and they are okay with helping make this minority group less invisible in whatever way, shape or form that meant, in the same way that they are highly supportive of other minority groups being less invisible. In the same way they help these other groups from celebrating who they are, I just wish they would do it for people like me as well. I think the thing that I appreciate the most and the value I've had back from being a teacher so often is I've probably spent the last 10 years wondering to myself: Am I a decent bloke? Am I a real man? What is masculinity? And by having the opportunity and privilege to work in a boys' school, it's really helped me figure those questions out for myself, which is: Yes, I am a man, I am masculine and I am okay. So there's certainly been a lot of personal payback for me for taking, I guess, the harder road of being gay in a boys' school when I could have gone to like a new-agey school where tolerance and diversity was just kind of up there. Yeah, I've definitely had a lot of personal reward from that amazing experience of being part of the community that is a boys' school. It was a great 10 years. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 153
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/mani_bruce_mitchell_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003844
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089138
TITLE: Mani Bruce Mitchell profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Mani Bruce Mitchell
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 1960s; Mani Bruce Mitchell; Roger Smith; Wai Ho; Wellington; gender identity; intersex; profile; sexuality; transcript online
DATE: 24 February 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Mani talks about being the first out Intersex person in New Zealand. This podcast was funded by a generous donation from Roger Smith.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Hannah Ho: So, here we have Mani Bruce Mitchell. Mani Bruce Mitchell is the first out intersex person in Aotearoa New Zealand, and that happened in 1996. How did all that come about, Mani? Mani Bruce Mitchell: Hi Hannah. Kia ora, and kia ora to everybody. How did that come about? Well, it was a long journey. I was in my mid 40s when that happened. And so yeah, to talk about the coming out really we have to go back to the beginning. So, born in 1953 in Auckland, actually, even though my parents owned a very remote farm in the middle of the King Country. My mum had lost three children with miscarriages, so she was under the care of a specialist. And this story is now somewhat famous because I've talked about it a number of times. But my mum and I only talked about the circumstances of my birth and my reality once when I was in my early 20s and asked her what had happened, because I had these vague kind of woolly memories that didn't really make sense. And she said sure, " We were in Auckland staying at Peg and Bob's." She said, " My waters broke early in the morning," and she's talking in a sort of conversational way, like we are now. She said, " Dad got up." They drove from Te Atatu into Auckland to the hospital, were met by the matron, apparently a very fierce woman who told mum that she couldn't have her baby yet because there were no doctors in the maternity hospital. So mum and dad would have been separated, mum sent down to the birthing unit with a young nurse, and I believe I was born some 20 minutes later. And again, mum's just talking like this, conversationally. And she said, " The nurse bent down to pick you up," and as my mum's talking, her voice changes, and she sort of screams out, " The nurse said, 'Oh my God, it's a hermaphrodite,'" and my mum runs out of the room. Hannah: Wow! Mani: So I'm left with this information, the word hermaphrodite, which at that point in time - this was my early 20s - I didn't understand what it meant, not really. I certainly didn't relate it to myself. I'm seeing my mum incredibly upset, and this is a woman of her generation who didn't show emotions. So I'm trying to put all this together, and she was gone for about 10 minutes, and when she came back she'd been crying, her eyes were all red. She looked out of the window, and it was a very beautiful, blue sky, summer's day of the kind we haven't had much in Wellington this summer. She looks out and she goes, " You know dear, I think it's going to rain. We'd better go and get the washing in." So we both went down the steps out to the back of the house, got the washing, and neither she nor I ever talked about it again. Hannah: Wow! So how did you start coming... Where did that conversation even come from, because you were saying you came out and your 40s, but you'd known before? You'd been thinking about it before? You'd been confused before? It was a completely random conversation? Mani: I recognize now, as a child I'd tried to make sense of what had happened. I don't have any sense of there ever being a question around what people today would call my gender and gender identity, although I know that how I behaved as a kid from time to time got me into trouble. So I was a tough tomboy, at times, because I also liked dressing up and playing with dolls, those two sort of aspects of self. But what I observed and noticed: when I was in a particularly butch or tomboy phase my mother would get very agitated, and during teenage years, which were hideous, she was always wanting me to have boyfriends, and I remember one year she bought me makeup for a birthday present, and these non-specific desires on her part for me to turn into what we would call a normal girl, and I use that word very cautiously. Hannah: Yeah. So your parents were at the hospital and the nurse said, " Oh my God, it's a hermaphrodite." You weren't, obviously, sent home as a hermaphrodite, " Here's our new baby. Our baby's a hermaphrodite." [laughs] Mani: Okay, yeah, let's go back to that. So, what happens - and I've had to fill the gaps in because I didn't have that conversation with my mum - I'm imagining at that point the hospital was mobilized, staff would have come running, my mum was probably sedated. Hannah: So it was like an emergency. Mani: Yeah, treated like an emergency. I'm taken away, and there would have been the first of many very invasive examinations. So let's be clear to people what's going on. Hannah: To a newborn baby. Mani: Mm-hm. Hannah: Wow. Mani: The more commonly used term is intersex, and it's a medical umbrella term that covers all kinds of conditions, and it's on a continuum, so at one end a baby would look completely normally male or female, at the other end of the continuum you would look at the genitalia and not be totally sure. And it's interesting; in this binary world of ours apparently you have to be male or female. That makes everybody happy. So, at the time I was born, 1953, the paradigm that was still largely operating here in New Zealand was a Victorian one. And the thinking was derived from medical legal thinking, and it went something like: It was considered inappropriate to deny the rights and privileges to somebody who may potentially be male. Okay? So, under that paradigm, children for whom their genitalia was ambiguous - that's the term that's used - were largely assigned " male." So, my parents took home a male child with the name Bruce Mitchell Laird, and that's how I lived for the first year of my life. However, things weren't completely normal. I would have had what was considered a small penis, and probably it was assumed undescended testes. So, just before my first birthday I went back to Auckland for another medical procedure where they quite literally cut me open and had a look... Hannah: And you were otherwise healthy? Mani: Oh, totally. Yeah. So this is huge, invasive surgery. They basically pulled all my guts out, on a little baby, and inside they found a uterus. So in a 24 hour period I went from being my parent's son, future All Black, inheritor of the farm, to being their daughter and somebody's future bride, you know? And my poor parents with, as far as I can work out, no psychological support at all. So they went up with Bruce and they came back with Margaret. You know, huge! I have reached the place where I can just think what that was like for them, which is good because there were many years where I was very angry at my parents, and thankfully they weren't alive because I would have hated what I would have done to them if they had been around as I tried to figure all this out and make sense of it. Hannah: So you travel quite a bit, Mani, and you were saying that a trip to America was real major for you. When was that? Mani: Okay, so you asked me before how this had gone. I have these periods of time in my life where I'd try to get information and make sense, and when I got that word " hermaphrodite," I actually couldn't find a place to hold that in my reality. After my mum died, and that's about 24 years ago now, she left a whole lot of documents. She was a very organized person for all of us, and in my pile was my Plunket Book. And it was one day when I was going through that I found - it's weird; it's a shame you haven't got it to look at - that somebody has very carefully cut bits out of it, and what I think happened is my mum went through that book, and I think she thought she'd removed all the references to my being different, but there are two that are still in there. There's one, I think I'm aged about six months, and it says, " Nice Wee Lad." And then just before my first birthday it says, " Seen by Doctor Blah-Blah-Blah. Sex determined as female." When I read that and realized that was a book about me, like, I just ran into this wall. I'd grown up on a farm. I'd been inculcated with our culture that said that you were either male or female. You know, so, how could I hold this information? And the other thing I couldn't work out is: How the hell could someone make a mistake? At that point I didn't know anything about ambiguous genitalia; I just thought that children were born with genitals that looked typically male or typically female. So that's a journey. I'd get little bits of information, and sometimes I can hold it and sometimes I just pack it, sort of deep in my head. But in my late 30s it gets harder and harder, and what I would recognize now is I was suffering from a form of depression. I'd become quite suicidal, and thank God I had a neighbor, a person that I had a lot of time, and I happened to talk to this person just randomly about some of the stuff that was going on. And she picked up on enough of it and said, " I think you need to see Hetty Rodenburg, who was a fabulous doctor. Hetty is still alive. At the time she practiced in the Hutt. In those days I worked for the Regional Council, and it's funny to think, because we didn't do our own typing. We had typists who typed for us, this was pre-computers, and there was a fabulous person in the typing pool who's still a close friend, and I asked Gay if she would type a personal letter for me, and she said sure, mate, we'll do it after work. And so we sat, and do you know it took five hours to type that letter? And I will always hold Gay close to my heart because she did that letter without blinking, and that was my first attempt to try and put what I knew into words. It's interesting to think about now, how hard that was. Anyway, this letter went off, and I, unfortunately, don't have a copy of it. And Hetty got the letter. She had what's called a closed practice, but she contacted me and said she would see me once [laughs]. So I went out, and that amazing doctor saw me that first time for an hour-and-a-half. And she would tell me later that she herself didn't know what intersex was. She carried out a very gentle... and it was probably the first time in my life that a doctor had touched me in a respectful way. You know, that in itself was so healing. And really, that's the start of the journey. So, through Hetty I started going to Elizabeth Kubler-Ross workshops, which were therapeutic. They were week-long, intensive, live-in workshops for people who had experienced significant trauma in their lives, and that's really where I start to learn some basic tools that really anchored me as a person. I used to joke and say I was a head that towed a body around. It's not really very funny to me anymore, but that's what it was like. I lived completely out of my body, what we would call being emotionally illiterate. So, I start the journey, and it's really once I'd become a bit more anchored in self, and start realizing that you're actually entitled to a good life, that I start my own research. And so, a friend, Jenny Rowan, who's now Mayor of Kapiti Coast, had been at a conference and she overheard someone talking about intersex in America. And so Jenny knew enough about my story to go, " I think this is someone that you need to be in touch," so I wrote to the organization in America, which is funny when I say organization because in those days it was just one person. And Cheryl wrote to me and we exchanged letters, and then invited me - well, invited lots of people - to go to California for the first retreat. Hannah: Wow! And that's the first-ever intersex retreat in the world or in the States? Mani: Yeah. No, no, no - in the world. And that, for me, was life changing because I.... Hannah: What year was that? Mani: That's in '96. Hannah: So that's in '96. Wow. Mani: That's the first time that I meet other people. Pride of America managed, with Hetty's support and help, to get access to medical books. Those are an appallingly hideous way to try and work out who the hell you are. I mean, this is pathology photographs of people with their eyes blanked out and standing naked, and their different bodies on display. So for me to meet another person, I recognize one of the things that has happened to intersex people is we have no echo, no mirror, and one of the things that you need as you're growing up is a developmental sequence. And I think a similar thing happens to many transpeople, as well. You know, you don't have that echo. There isn't that: this is what you're like. Hannah: That reflection - to see yourself? Mani: That reflection, totally. And so that 10 days that I was away in America and hanging out with other intersex people and hearing their stories was transforming. So, I came back and made a decision to seat up a similar organization too, ISNA. It's changed and evolved over the years. It's become, these days, exclusively an educational training organization. In the early days I tried to have it more as a peer-support organization, but we didn't have the resources, we didn't have the trained people to manage that. Hannah: Cool. So tell me a little bit about your work now. You work as a counselor? Who's your client base? And you've also just come back from a weekend in Hamilton, for a real massive exhibition. Can you tell us a bit about that? Mani: Yeah, well, I mean, my life has completely changed. So, around about that time that I first went to see Hetty, I was coping all right emotionally, because as I have explained, I was completely cut off from my emotions, so I functioned very sort of cognitively in my head, but it was really affecting my physical body and so I had something like a physical breakdown and had to leave my job. And in those days I was in a very good and well-paid job, so trying to work out how I could resurrect a career, and I'd been working in Civil Defense, and the area I'd been really interested in was Critical Incident Stress Management, which is really interesting because I'd never thought that it was about me; I always thought it was about looking after my staff, though I realize now, obviously there was part of me that was trying to understand. And so it was fairly obvious, once I started thinking about it, that I could retrain as a counselor and pull across some of those skills and knowledge, which is what I did. I retrained as a counselor. I've had a very small private practice for years. It always ran at a loss, and I didn't see lots of people. But then three years ago I was made redundant from my main job and had to face what I was going to do. And I made the decision that I'd always wanted to have this private practice and do more work in this area, and it just seemed like the right time to do that. So, I do; I have a private practice. I've developed a specialty working with people with gender issues, people who are struggling with difference, and that comes in many forms, it's not just around gender and gender identity and sexual orientation. There are many people for whom being different is hard. Hannah: Is there quite a large education part there or is it quite separate from...? Mani: Well, my original training was as a teacher, and it's funny because I spent a lot of my life avoiding or trying to get away from that, and one of the really nice things that's happened is I've actually accepted that I like teaching. I'm actually quite good at it, and there's a huge amount of training and education that needs to occur in this area. We live in this, still, you know? Some things have changed, but some things haven't. We live in a very binary, Euro-centric world, and that's actually a poor capture of humanity. I think humans are far more diverse than that simple model would lead us to believe. And one of the things that really interests me, in my research that I've done, is many so-called third-world countries have cultures where gender is captured in a much more complex way than the West has. In fact, here in the Pacific we have examples of that. And so I see that actually the West, who likes to think that they're the most advanced about everything, is not very well advanced in the area of gender and diversity, but it's changing - that's the good and exciting thing. Hannah: And the Assume Nothing exhibition that you've just been up to in Hamilton. That's played a massive part, I think, in Aotearoa. Mani: Huge! Huge. So, photographer Rebecca Swan originally took these amazing photographs that became part of a coffee-table book called Assume Nothing, and it is a book that captures gender diversity. Not just in Aotearoa because there are people from all around the planet in that book, though the majority of people would be from Aotearoa. And when the book was launched, the book launch was seen by a filmmaker, Kirsty McDonald, who approached Rebecca to see if she could make a documentary film about Assume Nothing. Well, several years went by and that project developed into something that's more than that. It certainly does capture the process of Rebecca working with people, which is wonderful because she's an extraordinary person, but the Assume Nothing film, I think, has another layer. And if you like, photography is 2-dimensional, and Kirsty's film really made this a 3-dimensional reality. Now The Dowse here in Lower Hutt picked up on this and in 2007, I think... no, 2008, the first exhibition opened, and that exhibition has gone on and travelled, so it's been the longest running in The Dowse, and then it went to Auckland, to Christchurch, Palmerston North, and finished in Hamilton. And I'm so proud because for people who have seen the exhibition, a lot of the images involve what people would call nudity; so, beautiful, stunning photographs of people without clothes on. And yet, that's not what it's about. It's about this astonishing celebration of human difference, and I think it's how Becs has taken those photographs, and as I said, amplified by Kirsty's beautiful filmmaking, this exhibition has been a very safe way - and I like what you said, how huge it's been - because I don't know how many thousand people have now seen it, but I'm imagining it's getting up there. Probably over 500,000 people; I don't know. Huge numbers have been through wherever the exhibition has been. And it's been a safe and gentle way for people to explore what many people find very scary. I think there's something core in humans that when we're around something we don't understand, it's frightening. And that exhibition has probably meant that there will be some young people grow up in Aotearoa who don't have to have the experience that I've had, and many other people have had, of it being frightening, of not getting the appropriate support. Hannah: So, do you think what happened to you as a baby in the '50s would still happen today? Mani: Sadly, it could still easily happen today. It would depend very much on the household that you were born into, the computer literacy of your parents, how comfortable they are with difference, and the other key ingredient is the medical people involved: so, the midwife, the specialists. I'm please to say that there are people who are doing it differently in this country, but there are also people still in that old paradigm. And there are still parents who are freaked out having a child who is different. So on one side, parents will say they just want the best for their children, and I believe that's largely true, but there's also that sort of black-underbelly side, what Jung used to talk about as the shadow, where people are more concerned what are the neighbors going to think? How could you do this to the family? And all queer identifying people certainly know about that. Hannah: So, you've done heaps, being a teacher, of the educational stuff that you've done within diverse queer communities as well as in mainstream, as well. And so a lot of your client base will be part of diverse queer communities. How do you think queer... Is there a Wellington queer community? Are there New Zealand, Aotearoa queer communities, and if there are [laughs], what could we all be doing better, or where do you see us heading? Mani: Mm. Nice questions! I think the thing that's really changed for me is these days I'm very comfortable in my own skin, and I have fun doing this. So there's that element of celebration and playfulness, so I do not try to pass. This is a radio interview, and for people who don't know me, I have facial hair - you can't describe it as a beard because it's not that substantive, but it's facial hair. I don't wear standard conforming clothes, and I'm doing more and more of that so I always wear a tie, but you might find me in a tie with a pink shirt, wearing jewelry with things that would be assumed to be masculine. And there's a level of deliberateness about it, but there's also just me being playful and wearing things that I like wearing. It's hard to do because they're not easily clothes to find. You know, you go into clothes shops and it's amazing how conforming just what the mass market is around what's available for people to buy. So I think that's the key. And my parent gave me some really good things, and one of the things that my dad gave me, genetically, is a sense of humor, thank God![laughter] Mani: We can do better. I think the queer community is quite tough on itself. Probably more accurately we should say queer communities. It's interesting; I think minority groupings, right across all cultures, can sort of start to have rules that are even fiercer than mainstream, sometimes. So I see that. Hannah: So, kind of about policing. Mani: Yeah, there's a right way to do things. And I guess where I'm coming from is I want people to pull forth this unique, beautiful being who they are, and I don't see that conforming to some kind of railway track conformist notion that people have to dress a certain way or wear a certain kind of clothes to pass. To me that's sad. I love living here in Wellington because I think it's much easier to be ourselves here. It was interesting being in Hamilton. I had a very warm reception up there, met some fabulous people, but what I noticed is walking around the town people stared at me all the time, and people would talk, you know? As you're going down the street: Wow! Did you see that? But a really nice thing happened. I was walking near the Technical Institute and there were some young people sitting at a table, and I'd gone past and it seemed weird to stop, so I just carried on, but I was out of eye contact, and this young Maori guy went, " Chur man! See that gender chick!" And it was said in a really kind of positive, excited way. That was probably the nicest thing. Most of the comments were more in the sort of shock. And it's just an important reminder, because we can forget what Wellington gives us, and it is that ability to be ourselves in relative - and I say relative - safety. I would be pretty careful about where I walked around at night by myself. Hannah: Yeah. So, gender chick! I haven't heard that term before. Mani: No, me neither. [laughs] Hannah: So, we've got GLBTI, and I think sometimes that's been extended to GLBTITTQF or something like that.[laughter] Hannah: We keep adding on and on and on. But the terms are changing, and young people are using different terms that aren't just in that little acronym. [laughs] Mani: I love that, and I see that in some of the people that I'm working with. There's a real deconstruction and they wouldn't use that academic term, and it gives me hope because it does not seem to be as rule-bound. So people really sort of doing that " Who am I?" and pulling that forth; I get excited by that. And dear God, we need to attend to the language because it is so restricting. So maybe we just get back to it, you know? A simple word like queer, though, I know how some older people hate that term. What would I like to see? I'd like to see us be more gentle with each other, more supporting, celebrating more. Anything else? I'm very excited by the Gay Games coming here. Hannah: Are you planning on playing anything?[laughter] Mani: Not at this point. I certainly plan to be involved, but it's probably going to be more in the sort of social educational component. It's interesting, I was a runner, and not a bad runner, when I was at high school, but I think my running days might be passed. Hannah: Fantastic! Mani: So, thanks Han! Hannah: Awesome! Thank you very much, Mani Bruce Mitchell, for sharing with us. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 214
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/kira_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003861
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089155
TITLE: Kira profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: 
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 2010s; Auckland; Kira; Rainbow Youth; Roger Smith; Wai Ho; coming out; gender identity; transcript online; transgender; youth
DATE: 26 May 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Kira talks about transitioning from male to female at seventeen. This podcast was funded by a generous donation from Roger Smith.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Wai Ho: So, I'm at the Rainbow Youth Offices in Auckland, with Kira. Hi Kira. Kira: Hi. Wai: So, you live in Auckland and you grew up in Auckland? Kira: Yes. I was born in Otahuhu, Middlemore [hospital], as a male. Now I'm a 17 year old transfemale, transwoman – MTF. I came out two years ago and started using Kira at the start of last year. I got my name changed a few weeks ago. Yeah, that's it. Wai: Did you pick the name Kira yourself or did you already have that? Kira: I picked it myself. I just saw it one day when I was growing up, when I was about eight or nine. I was reading this book and the main character was called Kari, which is a change, an anagram of my name. Wai: Was it a really big decision for you to transition? Kira: Well, there wasn't a decision, really, for me transitioning. It was the fact that from a very young age I was a girl and I was born a boy, so it wasn't the fact of transitioning, it was telling everyone. Wai: So, you've always known that you're a girl. Kira: Yeah. Wai: And what did you say to people when they told you you were a boy? Kira: Basically, when I was young and my parents kind of dismissed it and just thought it was me doing normal stuff – well, not normal, but kind of me just kidding around – and they didn't realize how serious it was. I dropped the subject from about 10 to 15 and just went to Dilworth, which is an all-boy's school, not telling them. And then just before my 16th birthday I told them. Wai: And what was their reaction like? Kira: Well, there was a few minutes of silence, but mum took it pretty well. Dad, on the other hand, was a bit disappointed and he was blaming himself and everything. And the fact is that we didn't have a strong relationship, so he thought that was to blame. Then he went into the denial phase of it, and it took about two or three months but he came around and he's supportive of me now. Wai: And did you talk while he was kind of coming around, or did you just give him some space? Kira: I encouraged him a bit, but I basically left him to it, just giving him the odd nudge here and there and just putting out hints. So, when I was talking about myself I would use he or she, then I would use she instead of he, because just to reiterate it. Like, when I would talk to him I referred to myself as his daughter and stuff, just subtle hints. Wai: And your mum was sweet as, pretty much from the get-go? Kira: Yeah. Wai: Had she kind of always known? I guess if you've always known.... Kira: She knew something wasn't right, but she didn't know what. She had no idea of what was different about me, but she knew I wasn't like my brothers. Wai: How many brothers do you have? Kira: I've got two; one older and one younger, and they both have autism as well. I've got a tiny bit of it, but not as much as them. My little brother is non-verbal. Wai: And your older brother, did you tell him when you told your mum and dad? Kira: I told him when I saw him next, which was like a couple weeks after me telling them. Well, actually I told my mum first, then my dad, because they don't live together. Wai: Oh, okay. Kira: Yeah, separated. Wai: Yeah. And your brother was good? Did he say anything? Kira: No. Again, it took just him getting used to the fact. It wasn't more of a resistance as him just [being] so used to knowing me as he and Matthew and his brother, that it just took a while for it to click in, but after that no sweat at all. Wai: And what was going on for you when you were 16 that made you say something to mum and dad? Kira: Well, I was finding going to Dilworth, which is an all-boy's boarding school, just got to the point where I couldn't deal with it anymore. I was really low at the time, but then I decided, right, I've left it long enough, and if they don't believe me now they're never going to believe me, was kind of the attitude that I took. Wai: And did you tell anyone at school, or did you decide and you're, like, I'll see you later? Kira: Everyone at school knows now, but at the time I just left. Wai: You're not at the same school? Kira: No, I dropped out of school because last year I tried to go back to school but they weren't so helpful with the fact that my legal name was still Matthew, and they weren't willing for me to be in female clothing because I was year 12 and they didn't want to stir up a reaction for just the year and then me going to mufti. But that didn't sit well with me. So, I tried to deal with school and it didn't work out, so then in June I tried to do correspondence school but I was too far behind in the year, so I had to give up that. Wai: Someone was telling me, do you also do karate? Kira: Yes, I do karate. Wai: Have you always done karate? Kira: No, I started in 2007 when I was still at Dilworth. I was finding it hard, and mum thought, because I was having a hard time there, karate would be a good escape for me because I wasn't too good with team sports at Dilworth. And that kept me active and gave an excuse for me to go out and stay home on Wednesday nights, do karate, and then train back in on Thursday mornings. Wai: Yeah. And do you still do karate now? Kira: I have taken a break from it, but yes, I still do karate. Wai: Do you compete in it or is it more just sort of a training thing for you? Kira: I train and I have competed, but kata only, which is non-contact, and I'm not allowed to do the kumite, which is meant to still be non-contact, but... Wai: There's a risk of contact. Kira: Yeah, there always is in kumite. Wai: So, do you enjoy competing, or is it just that it's fun but you're taking a break? Kira: I enjoy competing and training and everything, but I'm much better at kumite, and I enjoy kumite more than I do kata at the competitive stage in tournament. I came 5th in the world cup of green to red belts, and I was green belt in the male divisions. Wai: Whoa! That's pretty flash. And so was the world comps here or did you have to go abroad to compete? Kira: I had to go to Melbourne to compete. Yeah, it was Melbourne in 2009, August, and I went with my mum, as well. She competes. Wai: She competes as well? Kira: Yeah. Wai: Cool! And did she get any prizes? Kira: No. It's very.... Wai: [laughing] Just you. Kira: I didn't get a prize for getting 5th, that's just what I got. Wai: Where you placed. Kira: Yeah. Mum got 4th in her kumite, and hers was a substantially bigger division. She had 30 in hers, and I had just over 15 or 16. Wai: And you were saying that you've got a little bit of autism. How does that affect you? Kira: Yeah. It makes being transgendered and the process that much harder, but it just means that I have to change my thinking and my insight on how I see things, and to put them into something that my brain can understand. My brain sees more black and white than the gray, so I just change what I see into something that's more black and white and more definitive. Like, for transitioning you never know when; it's a process and there's no set time for that, but then I say that I'm going to do this today and tomorrow I'm going to do that, and just do little increments like that. Wai: So you've kind of had to learn about how, or you've had to sort out for yourself, I guess, how to be trans for yourself. Have you had to kind of teach other people about that, as well? Kira: A lot of people I've had to teach. Wai: So what do they ask you or what do you say to them? Kira: I just tell them what they need to know, in the best way I can, my interpretation of everything. Wai: And do you find that lots of people understand autism or understand what that's all about, or is it, again, something that you have to educate people about? Kira: People have a lot more of a clue about autism than they do about transgender, and people don't question my autism. Wai: But they question you being trans? Kira: Well, they don't question me in that, as such: you're not female, or stuff. But it's like: How can you see yourself as transgendered? You were born a boy; therefore you should be a boy for the rest of your life. Wai: Have you found that that's an attitude that lots of other people in the queer community have, or is it people outside of that? Kira: It's usually the straight community, or the other people that take offense to me, and particularly, parents of children are wary of me now. Wai: Hm. Is that a bit tricky? What does that feel like? Kira: I just shrug it off. It's their problem that they find offense with me, it's not my fault. I'm just being me. Wai: How did you come into contact with Rainbow Youth or any of the groups? Kira: My psychiatrist and psychologist at Whirinaki said something about Rainbow Youth and told me about Tommy, and then I came here and talked to Tommy about it. He explained a lot to me about stuff that I couldn't comprehend at the time, because the specialist that was seeing me for it wasn't too... he'd never had someone before. He only had the guidance of a colleague to oversee it, but he was new to it so he couldn't give me exact information, but Tommy talked me through it. Wai: So is it kind of lots of practical things or did you have quite a few questions? Kira: It was more that the process has no certain length of time. It's not like in a year's time you go on hormones and all that. It's everyone at their own pace. Wai: And were you really keen to meet other trans women or other trans people after meeting Tommy or did you already know lots of trans people before that? Kira: I knew a couple, but I didn't know too many. I came along to the transgendered group they have at Rainbow Youth, which was once called Gender Quest, which is now GIQ, or Gender Identity Quest, and from there I met a lot of trans people. I didn't intentionally go out to seek trans people, but it just happened that I met lots of new people and they just happened to be trans. Wai: Was it really nice meeting them, or were you just a bit ho-hum, cool, or whatever? Kira: It was nice to see some people that were more ahead in the process than me, and that they could talk me through it, because most of the information about trans community is still held with trans people and not these so-called experts that we have to go to. There is a lot of educating that we have to do of them. Wai: Are they getting any better, or is it still pretty backwards and annoying? Kira: Well, it's whoever you meet – whichever doctor you meet. Wai: So, a little bit of a lucky dip. Kira: Yeah. And if you don't get a doctor, or whoever, that has dealt with trans before, you just teach them and help them understand it. And I don't see it as much as a problem because that means that's one person, if another trans person comes along and needs a doctor, I know that doctor has been taught and knows at least one person that's been trans. Wai: Do you find that being a trans woman, lots of people, either queer or straight, get being trans, like, get gender really mixed up with sexual orientation? Kira: Yes. And even on forms it's very muddled up, but I guess it's because society doesn't really grasp the difference between gender and sex – gender being what you choose to be, or what's in your head, and sex as what you've been born as. Wai: Yeah, and so do lots of straight people, or anyone, I guess, assume that because you're a woman you're going to like men? Is there still that kind of stuff that goes on or not so much? Kira: Yes, usually it's quite often thought that, but for me that's not what I feel, and I just tell everyone who asks, because a lot of straight people ask me – well, queer people, as well – if I'm straight, or what I consider myself as. But I have heard that a partner of the trans person gets even more ridicule than the actual trans person. Wai: Whoa! Kira: Mm-hm. Quite often. It usually happens to the trans person, but like if I found a girlfriend and she was serious, she'd have to come to my psychiatry, to all my assessment for when I get signed up for surgery and stuff, and then they spend longer on questioning the partner than the actual trans person. Wai: Wow! Really? Kira: Well sometimes. Wai: Yeah. Why do you think that is? What's that about? Kira: Well just because they have to live with it, probably. Wai: And have you experienced a lot of transphobia? Kira: Yes, I have, but I feel more people... it's them assuming that maybe I'm gay, a gay male dressing as a female, so wearing feminine clothing. They assume that, and then they see, and then they are more homophobic than transphobic. Wai: So there's quite a lot of crossover with homophobia and transphobia. So, is it mostly assumptions, or have you ever been worried about your safety, or is it mostly just the everyday, wear-you-down kind of stuff? Kira: Yeah, it's more of that, and I know that if someone ever came at me I could hold my ground, so I don't feel a lack of safety. There are certain things that I won't do, but that's more that I wouldn't do it because it's what most people won't do, like walk around the streets, anyway, at 2:00 in the morning with no one knowing where you are and with no one with you – being alone. That kind of thing I wouldn't do, but I don't feel that because I'm trans I'm under any extra attacks, or my safety doesn't feel any more breached than if I wasn't trans. Wai: Do you still go along to GIQ? Kira: Yeah, I do. I've been going for over a year. Wai: And do you do other community stuff, or other queer/trans community stuff, or is it mainly just GIQ? Kira: I go to the gay group, the Generation Queer, or GQ group, that meets every second Friday here, which is good. It's for under 18's that are queer, gay, lesbian, bisexual, questioning, anyone can just come and be in a safe place and meet. Wai: And what are your plans for the next few months or the rest of the year? Kira: Just going on my transition, and then also keep up my karate and keep training, and go to my foundation course and get what I need so I can do a nursing certificate and get into nursing. Wai: Have you always wanted to do nursing? Kira: I've always wanted to be in medicine, but my choices are limited now because I left school and need NCEA level credits to get into med school and to get into pre-med, but it seems that there's no place, apart from school, which can get you there. But nursing is available to me so I'll do that. Wai: What would you like to see change in schools? Not just your old school, but schools in general? Kira: Getting rid of single-sex schools because that was a big thing for me. I went to a single-sex school, so the only thing you can be there is male. If it was coed, it might have meant I could have stayed at Dilworth. And being able to make a unisex uniform; if they won't allow you to wear the opposite gender's uniform, at least have a unisex option. Wai: And what about wider society? What are some changes that you'd like to see it go through? Kira: Just more education of people, and also it's ironic how they say trans [people], I, have got gender dysphoria. It's a severe mental illness they call it, but yet, it takes cosmetic surgery to change it. I don't know of too many other things that can be cured up with cosmetic surgery.[laughter] Wai: So do you feel like it shouldn't be in there, or is it just quite an odd thing that's in there? Kira: It's just how they've labeled it. They've labeled it as something real big, and yet it's cosmetic surgery, and you have to pay for the surgery yourself because it's not insured, but then you have to go through this whole process. Because it's a massive surgery, you have to go through so much to get it. You have to have people sign you off and make sure you're stable. Wai: What would you say to parents who, I guess, suspect that their child is trans, or even if you have a friend and you think that they might be trans? What are some advices or good things to do to support them? Kira: Well, just put them as normal, even if you know that they're trans, if they're not ready to come out they won't come out, so if it's a he, born an MTF, use he, and when they're ready for you to start using she, use she, and just be more open to the fact of transgender and be accepting of it. Wai: Do you get quite a lot out of being involved in trans or queer communities? Kira: Yeah. There's a lot of support out there. Wai: Have you found that really useful for you? Kira: Yeah. If it wasn't for their support it would be really hard because going through the transition you need someone there, if it's family or a partner or just people from the queer community supporting you and being able to tell you that you're doing a good job and being able to keep you on track, because it's not really the transition that's hard, it's more of when you start to get wobbles in life, that's when it kicks in and you start getting down and it just accelerates the spiral. Wai: Why do you think that people who aren't trans, or straight people or anyone who has a problem with it, find it really difficult to come to terms with it? What do you think that it is? Kira: Probably it's because they've never been exposed to it, or they don't believe it happens, and it's basically either ignorance or them not knowing or wanting to accept it. Wai: Do you have any last words of advice or support for any other young trans people coming to terms and accepting who they are? Kira: Well, take it at your own pace. That's the best thing. There's no set of rules that you have to follow and no criteria that you have to match up to. You can just be yourself and take it at your own pace, and everyone's different. Wai: Cool. Thanks heaps, Kira! Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 212
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/kerry_brown_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003863
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089157
TITLE: Kerry Brown profile
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VOICES: Kerry Brown
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 2010s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Christchurch; Kerry Brown; North Canterbury; Roger Smith; Wai Ho; Wellington; coming out; gay; hate crime; homophobia; profile; transcript online; youth
DATE: 11 June 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: 
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Wai Ho: So, I'm here with Kerry. Did you grow up in Wellington, Kerry? Kerry Brown: No, in North Canterbury, Waikuku Beach, which is a tiny little town maybe a half-hour drive north of Christchurch. Wai: And what are the stereotypes about Christchurch and around North Canterbury, and growing up there? Kerry: Well, I suppose when people hear that you're from a small town they assume that you've experienced a lot of homophobia. And I suppose I did, to a point, but because I wasn't out then I avoided a lot of that. In fact, the most disturbing experience, my most intense experience of homophobia, was in Wellington when a friend of mine was beaten up. And I guess that was because we were in a group and were out and proud, so we were a target, whereas in Waikuku or in Rangiora I was desperately trying to go under the radar. Wai: So, did you come out once you left North Canterbury? Kerry: Coming to Wellington, for me, was definitely leading up to it. I had envisioned that Wellington was a place I was going to come to and sort of find myself and come out, and I would discover my community or my people. So, with that in mind, I sort of knew that I was coming to Wellington to come out. Wai: When you were growing up in North Canterbury, did you know that you were queer or gay? How do you identify, or is that even relevant? Kerry: I identify as gay. I definitely had come out in my 6th form year to one friend, and then at the end of that year another friend, and then I paced it a friend at a time until quite a few of my friends knew, but I hadn't had a conversation with my family about it until I moved to Wellington. Then I lived with my uncle for about half a year, and that's when I came out, I guess. Wai: Were your friend's reactions good? What were some of their responses? Kerry: My first friend that I came out to, and this goes for a lot of my friends, actually, and my parents... My mum, especially, made it very clear whenever a queer-related news item came on the radio or television, she would make her opinion very clear in support of it, I think for my benefit [laughs], trying to open up a conversation, though I never pounced on the opportunity. And my friend Holly, who I... [interrupted] Wai: Was it helpful, even though you never pounced? Was it good to know what her opinions were, or were you like, oh, weird? Kerry: It was good. My mum's interesting because I always knew that it was never going to be an issue with her, but maybe she was one of the most difficult people to come out to, in a way, because I'm very close with her. I suppose having that conversation with her, for me, was finally addressing it fully for myself as well. So in that way it was difficult, but there was no doubt in my mind, I knew that she wasn't going to disown me or feel any differently about me or anything like that. Wai: And the first friend you came out to? Kerry: The same thing. She would always start conversations about queer stuff and try to bait me, I guess. But it took quite a traumatic experience for me with a – I suppose a boyfriend, where I was really, really in need of support – it took that for me to talk to her about it. And she and I were always bunking classes, and we went to the end of the sports field and sat behind this ruined wall and I held hands with her. [laughs] So, everyone has some story, I guess. And Polly – [laughs] Holly and Polly, the two friends I first came out with – in a similar circumstance, she realized I was really upset about something and wanted to talk to me about it. So I invited her over and had another really pained... like, lead up to talking to her about it. I think I said, " Polly, is there anything that I could say to you that would make you like me less, or make you hate me," which I suppose is what I was most paranoid about. And she said, " If you said something mean about my dad." [laughs] And I was like, " Well, I'm not going to do that, but I'm gay." And yeah, Polly is a really wonderful friend because she's so earnest and straight-up, and I knew I could rely on her to not tell anyone; and the same with Holly. I chose my friends who I could really, really trust, initially. And then once I was more confident with it I was a bit more frivolous with who I told. Wai: So you first came out to your first person in 6th form. Did you know before then? Kerry: Yeah. It's interesting because I'm sure.... Yeah, I have trouble in picturing or remembering when I first knew, but I know that I do remember, when I was very young, telling my mum that I wished I was a girl so I could wear pink pajamas, and being, like, utterly obsessed with mermaids. [laughs] But then I can remember driving back from Christchurch one evening and having heard some statistic that 1 in 10 men are gay, and I remember thinking it would just be my luck that I was that 1 out of 10 guys, but almost thinking that it just seemed so unrealistic that that would even happen to me. And then I guess when puberty hit, it was a pretty hormonal time, so I was having fantasies about women and men. And then once – I don't know; once my hormones settled – I definitely knew. I sort of tricked myself initially. I was like, right, I think I'm some kind of bisexual, and maybe I'll experiment with men, but I definitely want a family, yada, yada, yada, so I'm definitely still with a woman. But I guess I was just easing myself into it. I totally identify as gay now, although [laughs] in my family an auntie, for instance, identified as lesbian and then flipped. So did, apparently, quite a few members of my family, so who knows? Wai: So there's a potential that you might have to come out to everybody as straight.[laughter] Kerry: When I came out to my grandma it was really, really cute. She said to me that she had had passions for women, as well. Wai: Well, passions! That's a great term. Kerry: Yeah, that was actually a really lovely conversation to have, because she initiated it. She came into my room when I was asleep and she sat on my bed and I knew she wanted to talk about something. Wai: So you didn't pretend to be asleep? Kerry: No. I was pretty groggy though. I can't remember how she spearheaded the conversation, but we were talking about it and she just said that she wanted me to make sure that I knew what I wanted. I think probably she was really concerned that I would have a hard life as a gay person, probably from what she experienced growing up. But then she said she loved me no matter what, and that she'd had passions for women, and she gave me $20. [laughs] Wai: She gave you 20 bucks! All right. Kerry: Yeah, it was really sweet. She cried a little bit and then gave me the $20. It was sweet.[laughter] Kerry: I wish coming out to everyone was as lucrative. Wai: I know! Imagine if you got 20 bucks for everybody you came out to; it would be great! So, you moved to Wellington as kind of a gay Mecca or queer Mecca, and what did you find when you got here, community-wise or your-people wise? Kerry: Well, as I said, I guess it was sort of a metamorphosis; I wanted to be gay from the get-go, which I suppose is unrealistic in some ways. And I decided I wanted to dress differently, and I think I just jumped whole-heartedly into it. I was wearing eyeliner. Wai: What did you wear in North Canterbury, like, Airtex or Moleskins or something?[laughter] Kerry: I don't know; my dad's a bit like flannel shirts, like we're a hunting family. [laughs] Wai: So you traded your flannel shirt in for some eyeliner. Kerry: Yeah, nail polish and bright colors. I think this T-shirt that I'm wearing right now was one of the first things I bought, and I bought this purple jersey. But actually, the item that sort of, for me, represented my coming out was this bright pink hoodie with stars all over it. And I was just in love with it. I was like, this is symbolic of my metamorphosis. Wai: Did you feel like a mermaid? Kerry: [laughs] Maybe not a mermaid... yeah, maybe a little bit like a mermaid. Anyway, I met a gay guy at Massey, where I was studying, and he invited me to a party, and I knew that it was going to be a gay party and there were going to be gay people there, and I knew I was going to wear my hoodie and I was really excited. I went and took a friend with me to this party, wearing the hoodie, and I sort of walked in with my friend, who was a girl, and I was just sort of hovering and really in awe of everything. And then this person, this guy, came up to me and said, " Were you a birthday cake in another life?" And it was like he snarled – it was so horrible. [laughs] And I was like, " What do you mean?" And he just sort of looked at me, and I was like, " My hoodie?" And he just sort of rolled his eyes and walked away from me, and that was really, really disappointing. It was a bit of a crisis point for me, because I was expecting this community and my people, and that was quite traumatizing. And then I made friends with queer-friendly people in my studies, but not gay people. And I spent maybe a year in that sort of community of people in the theatre, Toi Whakaari, Massey lot before I even really properly started going to gay bars and making gay friends. I suppose eventually I did find my people, but it wasn't as instantaneous as I thought it would be in Wellington. Wai: So, how do you feel about your people, or the community or communities, now in Wellington? Kerry: I'm really privileged in that I'm surrounded by really incredible, strong, passionate queer people. Actually, there's just so much variety, there's so much to celebrate within our community, and I think it's wonderful. Wai: Do you think that if a young man from North Canterbury turned up at one of the queer parties or gay parties you're at, they'd get hassled about wearing a bright pink hoodie with stars on it? Kerry: Well, potentially. I actually don't know if I'm friends with any of the people that I met at that party, or with that person, in particular. I can't actually remember who it was. I think like any circle of people or any sphere you go into, you're going to not click with people, and probably experience hostility for a million reasons. Wai: Maybe he had a traumatic experience with the color pink. Kerry: Totally. Wai: You can never tell. Kerry: Yeah, totally, and I think maybe because it was so flamboyantly gay maybe he had an issue with it, which I know people do, which maybe stems from insecurities, which is maybe just a place where we are at as a society, which is not very nice but we're working through it now, I guess is what I'm trying to say. Wai: Can you talk a little bit more about gay stereotypes, and does that impact on you, or is it kind of out there and you know it exists? Kerry: It impacts me in that I get really upset when a particular stereotype is targeted with hostility. That really bugs me. I don't know; there's just a lot of negative... well, maybe there's not a lot, but you definitely hear negative talk about, maybe, drag queens or sometimes people – I don't know if it's meant to be in good humor – chuck around not-very-nice things about drag queens or lesbians or maybe even the party boy sort of look. I think there's some scorn around that. What I think is that with drag queens and with people that are really outwardly queer, I really super-admire that because it takes a lot of courage to be visible, and it's those people who are going to be targeted with homophobia and with hostility. And yeah, it just takes a lot of courage to be visible, I think, and by doing that they're serving a counter-community, and I really admire that. And I think it's just such a shame when you see on Internet forums, or anywhere, really, when within our community there's hate-speak. Wai: Where do you think that comes from? Kerry: I know that I really struggled with a sense of identity, growing up, and so maybe when people finally have the courage to be who they are they see that as a really narrow... what's the word? If you don't fit in a certain category or you draw attention to yourself or whatever, people might be hostile in that they feel that you're representing them. Oh, that took ages to get out! [laughs] But do you know what I mean? I can understand. Like, when I was struggling with my sense of identity, I was like: Well why are they behaving like that? That's not doing me any favors by being so flamboyant, or whatever. And maybe it's just been more recently, when I've had the privilege of being involved in more things like KAHA youth huis and forums for discussion, I've had the opportunity to do a lot of learning and a lot of self-reflection. Wai: So, is there stuff about Wellington's queer communities, or queer community, that you'd like to see change or like it to shuffle towards, or just happily doing its thing? Kerry: Yeah, I suppose I would like there to be a lot more celebration of variety within our community, and more tolerance of variety within our community. Maybe that just has to do with the time that we're in, because I suppose it's in the last 20 years that queer people have been able to sort of be more present and visible, so there's going to be some growing pains. And as a people, we're working things out. Wai: How do you find other queer people or gay people in Wellington? Is it just around bars and nightclubs, or have you just got a group of friends? Kerry: The circle in which I sort of operate now, I was introduced through a friend I went to drama school with. But I'm sure there are lots of entry points. There are the gay bars; I know that's not everyone's thing. I really struggle with striking up conversations in gay bars. Yeah, I suppose there are so many things actually going on in the community that if... I can't even actually remember any of the names now, but if you look in the gay newspapers or on websites and things, there are film festivals and stuff like that. But yeah, I just found my entry point through friendships. Wai: So, you socialize and you have your circle of queer friends and stuff that you do, and that kind of thing. Do you do other stuff, any kind of community work within the queer community? Kerry: Yup. It's been quite important to me to sort of get involved, and there's a lot of opportunity for that – to volunteer for things. I did face painting at Out in the Square, and I've done really mundane things like wrap condoms. Wai: Mundane but useful and important. Kerry: Yeah. Yeah. And that's really fun as well, putting condoms in packets and prep for Out in the Square, in that you got to sit down and do repetitive tasks with people and just chat. I've also been involved in UniQ, which is actually a perfect way to meet people. I believe I overlooked that before. If you're a student, UniQ is sort of a Victoria-based social group for queer people, and it's usually in the evenings, a movie in the evenings or lots of social events. I got involved in some queer mentoring through UniQ as well, and some mentoring with BGI, which isn't queer related but I did a lot of really useful learning there that has served me in other and queer areas, as well, through that. Wai: So I guess that would be kind of a supportive role, and you hear people today and they say things like, " Oh well, you know, homosexual law reform was ages ago," blah, blah, blah. Is there still a need for queer support and is there still homophobia? Kerry: Totally, especially at the youth level. Like, if you're supporting the youth, you're empowering them to have well-being in every area of their life, not just how they identify. But I just think it's so important with young people to make sure that they have it, that they're just empowered to feel good about themselves, no matter what. Wai: You said a while back, earlier in the interview, that when you were going through puberty, all hormonal, you were kind of liking boys and girls, or men and women, and part of that, with the women at least, was about families. Is that still relevant now? Do you still think about families now? Kerry: Yeah, it's a subject that I do a lot of thinking about. I don't struggle with it, but my opinion is always sort of changing. I know that if I want a family I can have a family, I just know that it will be different. There's a play called Cherish, by – I can't remember his name – a local writer, and it was at Circa Theatre. It's sort of about, I think maybe with our generation, in particular with my generation, there's a sense that you can get whatever you want, and maybe within older generations there's a sense that you can't always get what you want, which is a line in the play, which is a Rolling Stones song. And I think there's a balance with that. After reading that play, I found it quite a traumatic experience and I was really upset that I might not be able to get exactly what I want. But the whole point of the play was that you should cherish these things that maybe you don't have access to or you're denied, because they shape you. And while I might not be able to have the vision of a family that I grew up wanting, I can have something very similar to that and which is really special in its own way, I guess. Wai: Cool. So, what are your plans in the next... maybe we don't need to talk about it and it's premature, but do you have plans for the future to stay in Wellington and continue community stuff? Kerry: Yeah, totally. Wai: Or are you going to go to Hollywood and be a mermaid? Kerry: [laughs] Maybe that's something I should look into in the near future – dressing up as a mermaid and living out my childhood fantasy. Wai: You could be a cake mermaidKerry: I am always wanting to be more involved in queer stuff like when I was able to attend KAHA – how far out was that – in 2008? Wai: It was a while ago. I can't actually remember when. Kerry: That was something that I'll always remember, and things like that are just so empowering and so good for your spirit and for your well-being. I don't think even if I do flip and become straight [laughs], like apparently I have the potential to.... Wai: You can flip back again. Kerry: Well, I think I'm always going to be queer, whether I'm in a heterosexual relationship or not, and even if I did decide I wanted to be with a woman, I think I would always want to be really involved in the queer community and I would always identify as being queer. It's just something that I really cherish now, and something that I really try to celebrate in my life. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 167
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/jonathan_obrien_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003868
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089162
TITLE: Jonathan OBrien
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Jonathan O'Brien
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; Auckland; Jonathan O'Brien; Wellington; drag; gay; performance; profile; transcript online
DATE: 16 September 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Jonathan O'Brien talks about growing up and doing drag.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Jonathan O'Brien: I'm Jonathan O'Brien, and I guess I got into drag about six years ago. It had been something that I was kind of interested in from a young age. I sort of first got interested in it in high school when we were studying feminist art, and I felt like I connected with a lot of what the feminist artists were trying to say in the '70s. So, I decided that if I was ever going to be a drag queen my name would be Judy Chicago, after the feminist artist who did The Dinner Party. That's probably one of her most famous pieces. Gareth: What were some of the things that you keyed into at high school? What were they saying, the feminists? Jonathan: Anyone can be anyone. So, like Cindy Sherman posing in a lot of her self-portraits as all these different stereotypes of women and sort of deconstructing them and reconstructing them. So, if you're able to deconstruct an identity, you can create a new one out of anything. And that's kind of what drag is like for me. Gareth: At what age were you thinking those thoughts? Jonathan: Well, I had sort of gender/sexuality issues in high school where I was thinking about what it means to be gay or what it means to be gay if you were raised Catholic, what it means to be a boy. Like, I'd wear pigtails to school and see how people reacted, and so I just tried to destabilize boundaries that I found quite restrictive. And growing up in white, middle-class Papakura I just started playing around with how I dressed and how I thought. And it wasn't really until I went to university and moved into Auckland city that I met other people who were gay and were queer and were performers, and I figured that drag was the kind of performance direction that I wanted to go in. Gareth: Just going back to your high school days, how did other people react to what you were doing? Jonathan: My teachers all thought that I was lovely and troubled, and most of the other guys at school were just like, oh, you're a fag. And I was like, yes, but what does that mean? So I was kind of trying to get more out of them, and it didn't really work. But I had a fairly supportive school counselor who was like, don't worry, things will sort themselves out when you leave high school. And the college that I was at was Rosehill College, and now they have a really good queer sexuality support system in place. Gareth: So, at that age how do you have that kind of inner strength to challenge stereotypes? Jonathan: I don't know. Where does anyone get their inner strength from, really? Mum? I had a pretty fierce mother and a fierce grandmother. I had lots of really strong female role models. I lived with my mum for a long time after she kicked dad out, and then I lived with my grandmother and grandfather for a while. My grandmother was this bolshy Jewish holocaust survivor who lived inner strength, so it was probably a lot from watching people like her. Gareth: And so from those high school experiences, what did you take out of that? Jonathan: That people react to difference in different ways, and I guess I learned more about how I responded to their reactions. So, if their reactions were negative, did it actually affect me? And by the time I was finishing high school it didn't, and that sort of set me up for being comfortable doing whatever I felt like doing, I guess. Gareth: How did your family react? Jonathan: When I first came out to my dad I was probably 18, and he was all fine with it, and was like, " I guess we've sort of known that for a while, but do you want to be a woman?" And I was like, " No dad. I'm gay. I like the idea of two cocks together. That's the point." And then two years later I started doing drag and I didn't really know how he'd react to that, because of the question he'd asked when I first came out. So one night – I was living with him at the time – he and my stepmother had gone out, so I was just practicing makeup at home and got into full drag, and then I was just sitting in the lounge watching TV and they came home from being out. And I was just in there with a big blonde wig and bright blue dress, and dad just walked in and looked at me and said, " Hi son. So, will we be seeing you like this more often?" And I just said yes, and it was fine. Gareth: So, how do you see drag? Is it a performance thing or is it something more? Jonathan: Originally, when I first started doing it, I guess it was something more. I wasn't really sure of my own gender situation and what being male or female really meant for me. And I'd been doing lots of theatre as well, so I sort of mixed the issues together and found myself a drag mother and started doing drag regularly. And then it kind of became a shield or a suit of armor, and I think that's something for a lot of drag queens is that being in drag is kind of like putting up a defense almost, or a mask that affords you a lot of confidence and distance from people. So, I didn't have to worry about whether or not a guy liked me because I wasn't out looking for sex; I was out being glamorous and tragic [laughs] and outrageous. At that point, in the early point when I was first doing drag, my drag character was quite distinct from me as Jonathan. And I guess I wasn't sure who I wanted to be so sometimes I'd spend a lot of time in drag and maybe go to university in drag. And then as my life progressed and I got more experience with relationships and with sex I realized that, you know, being male was what I wanted to be, and being a man with a man was where I was most comfortable, and drag just became more of a performance space, a hobby, something fun to do, something to entertain people with, something to entertain myself with, and I didn't really need to hold it as that sort of magic feather. I didn't need to hold on to drag to be able to fly. Gareth: I'm wondering if you could define drag. How would you define drag? Jonathan: I guess drag, to me, would mean a member of one sex performing and presenting themselves in an over-the-top manner representative of the gender traditionally recognized as the opposite to what they were born into. Gareth: But there's an element of performance. Is that the key things, then? Jonathan: Yeah, and definitely, even if you're not onstage it's still a performance. Like, you don't just go out as a drag king or a drag queen, you go out and you are performing. You're performing in a character, really. Gareth: How long did it take for you to find your drag character? Jonathan: Well, I found three. [laughs] But it didn't take long at all, really. I had a really good drag mother. Her name was Ester C, and she was a very good makeup artist and very confident and very camp and very hilarious and witty. And I just emulated a lot of her behaviors and styles, and sort of found myself quite quickly and ended up winning Miss Drag Auckland about eight months after I started doing drag. And yeah, I found that my interests were in high camp and old Broadway musicals and kitsch glamour and tragic heroes, and all those sorts of gay archetypal kind of characters that a lot of the night-club scene were unfamiliar with or weren't into. All those things sort of fell into my basket and nobody else was really doing them at the time, so it firmed up a character for me quite nicely. And then as I just experimented with different looks and different styles of music and different styles of makeup and different eras and different aspects of performance and personality, I found other people to be Judy Chicago's alter egos. Gareth: Just before we get on to a description of the personas, can you tell me how you go about finding a drag mother? Jonathan: I'd been on the gay scene in Auckland for about two years before I started doing drag, and I'd seen all the drag queens around and I had no idea of how to get into doing that. I didn't just want to turn up in a wig and an ugly dress made of curtains, with a bit of makeup smeared on my face because you'd just get laughed out of town. So, one of my friends was friends with a couple of drag queens, and I met them at her 21st birthday and she introduced me to them. I got their number and then hung out with them, and then just said, yeah, I'd love for you to put me in drag, and so she did. You just find someone and latch yourself to them. Gareth: What was that first experience like? Jonathan: It was heady. It was mixed with a lot of drugs and alcohol and heels that I couldn't walk in properly and a dress from an op shop, but amazing hair and makeup. And I just felt like a movie star and felt like I had access to anywhere I wanted to go and could get away with anything. Gareth: So, describe for me your personas. Jonathan: Okay. Judy Chicago is sort of my base character, and she is more or less me now, really, in drag, but exaggerated so she's a lot camper and she's a bit fruity and she likes jazz and Judy Garland and floral and big, big hair. And Gertrude Stain is quite ugly, but clever and interested in cooking and hideous '70s prints and curly hair and glasses. And Nylon Polymer is a bit of a trip, and is usually in white-face and bizarre post-modern blends of things like laundry baskets and Marie Antoinette hair and Care Bears. And the three of them get along well in my head. Gareth: Do you ever find they're taking you over? Jonathan: No, not at all. I did used to feel that Judy Chicago was taking over when I was going through a bit of an identity crisis, and if I was feeling down, or whatever, I would fall back into that confident persona that I had constructed, and that confident persona just happened to be a drag queen. So sometimes I'd not feel like I could go out to a club not in drag, because I didn't feel confident enough or I didn't feel pretty enough or whatever. Gareth: So talk to me about identity crises. Jonathan: For a while I was living with my father, who lived on the [North] shore, so I had to come into town to socialize with anyone, and I had a lot of different groups of friends and I felt like I was a different person with each of these different groups of friends. And I was trying to work out who I was without them, and who I felt comfortable being, and who I wanted to be and who I wanted to be seen as being. At that point I just didn't really feel like being Jonathan, I guess. I didn't really know who he was, but I had a more definite idea of who Judy Chicago was, so she kind of took over. And yeah, for a lot of other drag queens I've spoken to, they feel like their drag personas can take over a lot, as well, and sometimes you've just got to put the drag in a bag and hide her. Gareth: Now, drag wasn't confined to those personas, because you were also doing some study around that area as well, weren't you? Jonathan: Yeah, I was doing a degree in psychology and linguistics, so I was quite interested in gender and language. And I was also the cultural affairs officer for the Student's Association. I got Judy Chicago to run as that position, which just made it a little bit more fun for me and for anyone else, really. And I did a research project on how drag queens in Auckland spoke, and how that differed from how they would speak as gay men or how they would speak as men in general. And I just looked at the intersectionality of the different cultural groups around Auckland, and the influences that they all had on drag culture. There's a strong Polynesian and Maori influence on a lot of the phrases that people say, and that's probably because there's a high population of Polynesian and Maori people who are involved in the queer community in Auckland, especially in the performance industry, as well, and some of the best drag queens in New Zealand are Polynesian and Maori. And also just looking at the influence of African American drag or African American gay culture on gay culture in New Zealand and how that affects the way drag queens speak and act and the looks that they adopt, as well. And then looking at our trans-Tasman relationship with Sydney, and Sydney has a very polished, glamorous drag image, and at the moment Auckland is looking a lot more like Sydney, drag wise. Gareth: Can you give me some examples in terms of speech or looks? Jonathan: I guess there's just all sorts of little things like: a lot of drag queens will say gnirl instead of girl, and it's a gay thing as well; and kia ora sister, and talking about someone being whanau, like, is she whanau? Is she gay? Is he gay? Is he family? And little polari phrases like riah and uber-riah when you're talking about a wig, and zhooshing and trolling and pudaganussy. There are just lots of little idiosyncrasies that strong personalities have that rub off on others, as well, like Ribena has a way of talking that is very loud and scary and powerful, and a lot of people put that on sometimes. Gareth: Just for the uninitiated, could you go back through some of those words and define what they are? Jonathan: A pudaganussy is a drag queen's pussy, and it's usually covered up by three pairs of stockings. An uber-riah is a lace-front wig. Trolling – you know, trolling for trade, stalking for boys to have sex with or johns, clients, whatever. “Cracking it” is basically prostitution. Gareth: Is prostitution a big thing in the drag scene? Jonathan: Not really, no. I don't know many drag queens who actually work as prostitutes in drag just because it's so much effort to get in drag; you don't want it to all get smudged off by some big eager man that's probably not really worth the trouble. Doing drag is relatively expensive if you're doing it well, I suppose. Although, in saying that, you can actually do drag really cheaply and amazingly; it just depends on what look you're going for, really. The $2 Shop in the Warehouse is most drag queen's favorite shops, I think. But yeah, I know a few girls who do it sometimes – maybe for a new wig or whatever – but I don't think it's a large aspect of drag culture. Gareth: So, what were your findings in your research? Jonathan: I guess I just found the importance of understanding the way other drag queens spoke so that you could speak their language and be part of the community; so, reinforcing solidarity through this stylized form of discourse. And it's a sense of belonging, a sense of exclusivity, almost, and a sense of family. And I think for a lot young gay men coming into the gay scene, they're kind of lost, and you see this drag sisterhood as a ready-made group that you can be adopted into. You just learn the customs and the practices and you have a family. Gareth: So it's quite friendly. There's not a competitive edge? Jonathan: I'd say it's very competitive, but that competition, in itself, reinforces the friendships. So, you're constantly trying to make yourself better and your friends are trying to make you better and make themselves better, and you give each other a hard time to make each other try harder. So it can be really bitchy, but it's in jest most of the time and you know you can rely on your sisters if you need to. Gareth: Have you found that it's mostly gay men that do drag, or do straight men do drag as well? Jonathan: Well yeah, a lot of straight men do drag. I mean, with Queen of the Whole Universe in New Zealand, that kind of presents an opportunity for a whole lot of people to do drag in a really structured and safe environment. They go through rehearsals, they get told how to dress or what style to dress, they have someone else doing their makeup for them, and I guess people who do drag occasionally aren't really drag queens as such, because they're not immersed in the culture and the practice, but it's something they can do for fun. I know with Queen of the Whole Universe we've had large numbers of straight men and straight women and gay women, and mostly gay men, come through and perform as queens every year. And the whole bio-queen movement is growing all over the world. A bio-queen is a woman who dresses up as a drag queen, so you could almost say Lady Gaga is a bio-queen, but my favorite bio-queen would be Phonique, who's an amazing performance artist. She's involved in the Trannyshack group in the States, and she's just fierce. And we've also got a few bio-queens in New Zealand, as well. It's just girls kind of seeing that hyperfemininity is this arena that isn't really open to them very often any more, and they want to draw their eyebrows up high and put ridiculous amounts of eye shadow on and giant wigs. Why have an excuse to do it when you can just go out and be a queen? Gareth: What do you think is the biggest thrill for you doing drag? Jonathan: I have the most fun in drag when I'm with other drag queens and performing, so getting the buzz of rehearsing and putting together a show, and then being onstage with the people you've been working with, or in front of people and being a spectacle. Yeah, a lot of it is just about making something fabulous and having a good time doing it. Gareth: Is drag all about the present and the now, or does it have a history? Are people aware of a history in drag? Jonathan: Yeah, definitely there's a long, long history. I've done a lot of research on the history of drag and looked into different forms of drag all around the world, and different forms of gender transgression or subversion or whatever, and I find all of that really interesting, whereas other drag queens are just like: Britney's so fuckin' hot; I want to look like her right now. And that's cool, you know. You don't need the history to be amazing, but it's fantastic to know that even in New Zealand we have a strong local history of drag going back about 50 years. Gareth: And how is that passed down. If you hadn't gone and researched, is it within the community, within drag queens themselves, who are passing that history down? Jonathan: In Wellington we lack a lot of drag history now because most of the older drag queens have moved on, and so we've got a lot of orphan drag queens, or motherless drag queens. [laughs] But in Auckland there's a fairly steady generational handing down of the knowledge of drag and knowledge of the girls who came before. And we have things like the Cartier Trust and that sort of thing that recognize that these people had been pretty fabulous and had been around for a while, and the knowledge of who these people are is definitely around. Like, most of the drag queens around today would know about performances in the early '90s and '80s at The Studio and The Staircase and things like that. Gareth: And how is that history seen of those older drag queens and their memories? Are they celebrated or are they set up as something that was kind of weird? Jonathan: Again, it all depends on which drag queen is around. Some older drag queens are just seen as a bit weird, and then some of them are celebrated for being completely outrageous and of their time or before their time, and some of them are still the most fierce bitches around. [laughs] Gareth: Do you think there's any kind of age limit for people in doing drag? Jonathan: Definitely not. Peter Taylor is still doing drag and he's probably like 100 years old by now. [laughs] And he's still fabulous. And the youngest person I know who started doing drag was probably about 14. But there's also blurry lines with transgender issues, as well. Some people start out as a drag queen or doing drag or cross dressing or whatever, and then they start doing it more often, and then that person becomes who they are and who they want to be or who they've always wanted to be. So there are strong links between drag communities and transgender communities and people and individuals. Gareth: What do you think the hardest part of doing drag is? Jonathan: For me probably the hardest part has been juggling drag with a partner. Gay men are gay men because they're attracted to men, and my partner is not attracted to drag queens, even though he met me when I was in drag. He just came to see me as a boy, and that's who he likes, so when I'm in drag he kind of feels like I'm a different person, and not the person that he's in love with. But he understands that I'm still there, I'm just playing. So yeah, juggling my sisters with my boyfriend has probably been the trickiest part of being a drag queen. Gareth: And the funnest part? Jonathan: The funnest part is stumbling down to a kebab shop with a bunch of drag queens whose lips have been getting bigger and bigger all night, and gorging yourself before getting a taxi home, and just the looks on everyone's faces around you, with these three tragic queens, or four tragic queens, or two, or five – whatever – just looking completely conspicuous and out of place. Gareth: So, talk to me about reactions, like when you're walking around in town. Do they vary from city to city? Jonathan: Yeah, reactions definitely vary from city to city, and street to street as well. Like if you're going down K Road it's kind of known that that's where drag queens live, and if you're going to K Road on a weekend night you're going to bump into a drag queen, so you're on their turf pretty much. I think once somebody said to me, " What makes you think you can get away with wearing that?" And I just said, " Because I can," and they were like, oh, okay, and it was fine. And then in Palmerston North I did a gig with a friend, and the gig was at Club Q – I think that's what it's called there – and when we finished I go, " Right, let's go hit the town," and we were denied from about four or five different clubs because we didn't meet the dress code. And we weren't even wearing anything particularly outrageous or skimpy, it was just clear that we weren't welcome there. We ended up finding one place that would let us in, but reactions weren't particularly positive. And then in Wellington, on Cuba Street pretty much everything is fine, and then you walk down Courtenay Place and you get called faggot by a bunch of guys, and beautiful by their girlfriends, so it just depends on who you bump into and who's out at the time. Gareth: Do you get more reaction in drag or just as a boy? Jonathan: Definitely get more reactions in drag. As a boy I mostly just wear black and grey and blue, and in drag I mostly wear purple and fuchsia and lime and bright colors. And people really appreciate it in most places that I end up in. A lot of people just come up to me and are like, thank you for just adding a little bit of color. And that's really nice because that's a big part of the reason why drag queens do it is because they want to bring a bit of color to something and make people happy and make sure that people are having fun. And sometimes that fun isn't welcome, [laughs] and that's fine, too. In Wellington there's not much of a drag scene, and the gay community isn't really that keen on drag and drag performances, and I just think that's because there's no real strong drag coordinator. We used to have Polly Filla living in Wellington, and she was great at holding a drag community together and organizing events and being a great role model for people, and when she left I think a lot of that just dissipated, and so Wellington is waiting for its next true diva to stand up and unite the queens. Gareth: So we were talking just before about drag mothers, and I'm wondering: Are you now a drag mother? Do you have drag children? Jonathan: Well, now that I'm an elderly six-year-old drag queen, yeah, I do have drag children. I didn't for a long time because I didn't really know anyone who fitted what I would want in a daughter, but one of my dear friends who shared a lot of my interests in gender and performance and color and film and theatre and music, he had watched me do drag for about two years, and I suggested that maybe he would be interested. I was living with him at the time, and he was just like, oh yes, yes; oh God, yes, I want to be your drag daughter please. And I wanted someone I could share my style with and share the films and history that had sort of inspired me, like a lot of John Waters' films and Andy Warhol's films, and the drag queens of New York that I was really interested in, and The Cockettes. So yeah, I just showed him all of that and then one night I was like, right, here's a bunch of old costumes that you can have, and did his face and showed him how to do her face, and put her in a few wigs, and started taking her out. So yeah, I have my own little daughter, and her name is Gaia Octavia Seizure, and she's very much an earth-mother in sequins. And I also have a step drag-daughter, as well, whose own mother passed away, and so I sort of adopted her. I guess for me, being a drag queen has been really useful in finding out who I am and finding out what I can do and who I can be, and I've made a lot of really, really, really good friends through drag, where sometimes all we have in common to begin with is the fact that we want to dress up in ridiculous costumes and run around town screaming, and progress from there. So yeah, I just really appreciate everything that I've gotten from my involvement with drag and drag performers and the performers associated with that culture. Gareth: What's your ultimate drag act? Jonathan: I really like drag and theatre and acting and comedy. I really like the drag that happens in New York. A lot of it's a little bit edgy and it's less defined in its boundaries of what is drag. Like, some drag queens will say that to be a drag queen you've got to be wearing a wig or you've got to be wearing heels or whatever, and then others will be like, all you need is some lip gloss and some bright eye shadow, and who gives a fuck about wearing tits or whatever. And yeah, I like those destabilized performance types. But I also really like the high glamour that happens in female impersonator shows where people dress up as Liza Minnelli or Cher or anything like that. One of my favorite shows that I ever did was a half male, half female – or half man, half woman – cabaret act for the Auckland Festival in 2005. And that was a lot of fun because it was quite challenging actually creating a male character who had to be just as extreme as the drag side. So, I already had Judy Chicago established as a persona, but Jack London needed to find himself, and so he just became this revolting, sleazy, Jewish, used-car salesman, wannabe stand-up comedian. So for that show, Judy sang and Jack interrupted her and kept trying to tell jokes. And it was in a really intimate space, in the Winter Garden in the Civic, and I really enjoyed being involved in something like a cabaret like that. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 209
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/joe_q_topia_and_forge.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003859
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089153
TITLE: Joe talks about Q-topia and Forge
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Joe
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1990s; Christchurch; Forge (Christchurch); Joe; Qtopia (Christchurch); Rainbow Touchstones; activism; coming out; depression; education; gender identity; health; mental health; school; support; transcript online; transgender; youth
DATE: 15 May 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Christchurch, Christchurch, Canterbury
CONTEXT: Joe talks about the Christchurch youth groups Q-topia and Forge.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Joe: Hi, my name is Joe. For the last few years I've been involved with facilitating Q-topia, which is a queer support network for queer youth, and it runs in Christchurch. We have kids aged between 13 and 25 coming along every week, and we basically just hang out, have a bit of fun, occasionally we do a few workshops and things, and we do quite a lot of cool stuff because we do a lot of fundraising. So if you want to come along, go for it! Gareth: How did you get involved with Q-topia? Joe: I kind of got kidnapped by my flatmate who was a facilitator at the time. At the time I was identifying as a lesbian, and I got dragged along to a meeting one night and, " Look! I found a lesbian!" And that was it. I was the only female facilitator, so that was it, I wasn't allowed to leave. So yeah, it's been five years, and I've kind of shifted my focus to the offshoot of that now, which is Forge, which is for trans youth, but I think it's one of those things you never really leave. Gareth: So, can you tell me a wee bit about Forge? Joe: Yup. That was put in place by one of our facilitators, Evan, probably late last year, and it was just sort of out of a need for trans youth to have a bit of their own space, because some of them don't identify as queer, and a lot of the issues that trans youth and trans people have are different to the ones that queer people have. So, we thought we'd start something up for them and just see how it goes, and it's going really well at the moment. Gareth: What are some of the different issues that are different from being queer? Joe: Well, everybody struggles with body image, but for trans people that can be a lot more of a big deal. And also, for trans youth, being taken seriously is quite a big issue. When you come out as queer a lot of people get: Maybe it's just a phase. You're so young you don't know what you're doing. But if you want to realign your gender to how you feel inside, it's a huge, big deal, and a lot of the time their parents struggle with it a lot more, as well. Gareth: So, what kind of an age group are we talking about? Joe: I think the youngest we have in Forge is 16, and around until about mid-20s, I think. Yeah, the facilitators I think were both 28, but we've got quite a few young people around the 16 or 17 mark. I never figured it out that young. It's amazing! Gareth: Can you talk about some of their perspectives on life and trans issues? Does that surprise you, some of the stuff that they're coming up with? Joe: It's amazing that some of them just don't seem to struggle with it the way that I remember struggling with it. I don't know; maybe it was the age thing. I wasn't really thinking about it until I was in my mid-20s, but they, at 16, are so sure that this is who they are, this is what they want, this is what they're going to do, and it's just that simple for them. They're like, I'm a guy; I'm a girl; and that's really just as simple as it is. And that's just really amazing to see 16 year olds with such assurance about themselves. And just some of the stuff they say, like: Oh yeah, I'm a guy, and they just say it like it's the most natural thing in the world, whereas I was just a mess for ages about it. Gareth: Where do you think that assurance comes from? Joe: I really don't know. If I knew I would be going to get some myself I think, actually. [laughs] Maybe it's something they've been thinking about for so long. And also I think having the trans space helps them a little bit because when they come along they automatically get gendered correctly, called by whichever name they want, treated the gender they want, and I think that helps them feel a little bit better about it, too. We might be the only people who are taking them seriously, so when they come along they automatically know that they're going to be treated the way they want to be treated, and I think they really like that. Gareth: Can you relate some of the experiences they've told you about what it's like to be in the school system at the moment? Joe: We've got one young trans guy, and he's just finding it really, really rough at school being trans. He won't be called by his preferred name by any of his teachers, and his guidance counselor is probably the only support that he really has. And I can't really imagine what that's like because I didn't come out as trans until I was in my mid-20s, but it must be really isolating because people, especially young people who haven't really had too much life experience are just sort of lumped in all in with the queer thing, or they get the whole fetishized transvestite kind of thing. And it's just not really like that. And a lot of the time they just feel really ignored. I think, actually, most of the kids we've got are finding it really, really rough at school at the moment, and a lot of them just haven't even come out at school because it's just not worth it. They think they'll just wait until they leave school, hit university and sort of do a change then, which does make a lot of sense. Trying to change that in the last couple years of high school would be a bit of a mission, I think. Gareth: So, what are they like at the first point of contact, when they come into contact with the group? Joe: They're usually pretty quiet. We're sitting there going: Oh, how are you? What's your name? and all that sort of stuff, and they're just monosyllables, which is not that uncommon in queer youth anyway. A lot of the time they really don't want to talk that much. But yeah, once they realize that we're not actually trying to preach at them, we're not trying to change their mind, we're not trying to educate them, they just really get into it and we just talk about all sorts of stuff. And I think they find it a relief that we don't think they're crazy, like it's not really a massive support group like we think they're nuts or anything. We just want to hang out and have a space where it's kind of tacit that you don't really have to say you're trans all the time and talk about trans stuff all the time. Most of the time we just talk about movies and stuff, but it's just really nice to know that people understand what it's like, and it's sort of freeing just to not have to talk about trans things. It's really cool. We just talk about whatever. Gareth: Did you have anything like that when you were coming out? Joe: No. I didn't even know how to be gay when I came out. I just kind of thought, well, I'm gay; now what do I do? I hit the dating sites – bad idea – but never mind. I didn't even know where to start, so I just started at the wrong end and went from there. And there was nothing when I was first questioning, when I was 18 or 19, there was only one group at university, and I went along and there were just some middle-aged women there, and I thought, no. So I just kind of had to find my own way, which was really, really hard. And if there'd been something like Q-topia out there then, I would have probably not had quite so much of a nightmarish time in the first couple of years of being out. But a lot of our facilitators have started working with Q-topia because there was nothing like that when they were coming out, and they think it's just such a good thing to be doing. And especially with the trans thing, it's Christchurch for a start; it's just unheard of; people don't talk about it. And really the only thing we've got is Agender, and that does have an older-person focus. It's not really geared towards really young people, so it's quite good to have something out there that sort of focuses on young people and what issues they might be having with being trans. Agender sort of feel like they have to cover everything, but with just a specific focus on the trans stuff, I think that's quite valuable for our young people. Gareth: Does the youth group have any tie-in with Agender? Joe: We're working on having a bit more to do with them. They've got quite a lot of really valuable resources, and I think a lot of the trans people who are within Agender would be really, really good for our kids to talk to, as well. I know that teenagers aren't often that keen to talk to people about things, but everyone's story is different, everyone's transitional journey is different and I think it might be quite good for them to hear quite a few different opinions on it. That, and they have so many different books in the library, and I think we have the national Agender library at the moment, and I think it might be quite good to just put a few books in the kids' direction and say: have a bit of a read. It would be good for them, and it's good for us, too. So, maybe a little book group or something. Gareth: So, what's Christchurch like in terms of the queer and trans scene? Joe: It's conservative – a slight understatement. It's getting a bit better because there are obviously really strange people like me floating around stirring things up, or trying to when I'm awake. But it is quite gendered: lesbian, gay, and there's not a lot else that goes on, at least not publicly, which is a bit of a shame. The trans scene is really, really small. There's really not that many of us around who actually... Well, I mean, we're always around, we're everywhere, but we don't really get together much, so you have to sort of find your own friends where you can find them and just stick with them. I've got quite a few trans friends and we all just hang out together, but it's taken me a long time to find them. I don't think we really get taken that seriously on the queer scene, which is a shame. I don't know; when I go out people still think I'm a lesbian, which is unfortunate because I never liked being called lesbian anyway. Could you at least call me a homo? That would be great. But when we want to do stuff the trans people just go to the other queer stuff, and people just make what they want of us, which is, unfortunately, usually incorrect, but never mind. But yeah, it is very conservative here. We don't have a lot that goes on, on a regular basis, it's just during Pride Week, and occasionally there will be a big event, but it's really not that often so people just kind of do their thing quietly in their everyday lives – which basically sums up Christchurch, actually. We just kind of keep to ourselves, which is a shame. It would be nice to see a bit more community, but we're working on it. Gareth: Did you come out, both in terms of sexuality and gender, at the same time? Joe: No. I thought I'd do the ultimate shock value with my parents and do it twice, which is the ultimate torment. The sexuality came first and I sort of settled into that, and then I was like, no, no, there's something still not quite right with this picture. It took me another, probably, five years in between the two comings out. So yeah, it took me a little while. I kind of settled into being queer, and people would label me as a lesbian and I'd think, no, no, I don't quite like that. Why do I prefer being called a homo? Now, why is that? And eventually I figured it out anyway and came out again and made my mum cry again, but it's all good now. Gareth: Which do you think was hardest, or were they both equal? Joe: I think the trans was actually easier in some ways. It's harder to be taken seriously because I haven't transitioned yet. I'm still not taken seriously a lot of the time, which is fine; I don't really care any more. The sexuality was harder because that was sort of the first shift from being what was considered normal, but by the time I'd been living the queer lifestyle for five years already and I was already out there doing Pride Week and drag king, drag queen, drag everything I could get my hands on – just really, really, really gay. Anything I did after that was not going to be as much of a shock. And most people in my life have been really good. I think it's harder for mum and dad because they're losing a daughter and they're gaining a son, but that's hard for them. But in general, I don't think I really could have shocked them that much more. I was already pretty weird, so saying that actually I'm a guy wasn't a big a deal as I thought it would be. Gareth: How did that conversation happen? Joe: I just said I'm coming over and need to talk to you. And I just sort of sat on the couch and looked miserable for about an hour, and eventually mum just said, " All right. Okay, what?" And I said, " Well, you know how I've been really depressed lately? There's a reason for that – I'm transgendered." She said, " Oh my God, no!" and just kind of ran out of the room. And dad was sitting there saying, " What's that?" [laughs]" It means she wants to be a man!" Like, oh no. But a couple of hours later, and lots of crying and lots of hugs, and I had to try and not overload them with too much information straightaway because it's just huge. I'd been their daughter from when I came out 26 years, so I tried not to talk too much about what the transition process would involve. I just sort of tried to focus on: this is how I feel about it, and to let them know it takes as long as it takes for them to get used to it. I'd thought about it for God-knows-how-many years before I came to terms with it, so if it takes them at least that long, then, cool, whenever. But they're getting their heads around it now and helped me choose my new name and everything, so they're kind of helping me get involved in stuff, which is really cool. Gareth: When did you start having gender identity thoughts? Joe: I think it would be the first time I dressed up in drag, as a drag king, when I was maybe 21. I think it was the first time I actually bound down my chest, and I was like, ahh, that's what it's supposed to be like! This is cool! And I'd go and do shows and stuff, and I'd spend hours and hours and hours in drag at home practicing, and then I realized it wasn't actually practicing; all I was doing was just looking in the mirror thinking, yeah, this is cool. And eventually I realized I didn't actually like performing, either. I hate it. I get really bad stage fright, so I thought, why am I doing this then? It was an excuse to dress up like a guy. And I thought, well yeah, I could just be a guy all the time – simple. So once I started thinking about it like that it kind of went downhill pretty quickly from there; and probably only about six months after I really started seriously thinking about it I thought, right, this is how it's going to be now. So yeah, I think it was about the beginning of 2009 when I finally sorted it out. I was heading up to Wellington for the KAHA hui then, so I thought, right, try the new name, try the new gender and see how it goes, just because I was going to meet so many people who didn't know me, so I wanted to see what it would be like to be gendered correctly and called by my new name, and it was just fantastic! So I've never looked back from there. Gareth: What are your thoughts when you see somebody coming along to the support group as a 16 year old, and they're just very definite about their gender and things like that? Joe: I'm like, oh my God, I'm so jealous of you right now! I didn't figure it out until 10 years after they'd figured it out. And I always think, with the transitional process, which is so long and so painful and so expensive and time consuming, they can start so much earlier. But then again, that's not always a bonus, because I had an extra 10 years of maturity. I see a lot of young trans people who are like: I have to do this right now! I need my hormones, I need my surgery, I need this, I need that, everybody has to call me by my right name all the time, and that kind of thing. And they're just so desperate, and I think the added experience has made me just a little bit more patient. Things take time, endo appointments take time, surgery takes money, and I've lived enough of my life already to realize that patience is the key. It's taken me how-many years to get used to the idea. It's going to take another how-many years to transition; and that's absolutely fine. It's cool. But these young people, I always think even if they can just start the process when they're 18 they're going to be amazing by the time they're 25. They'll be done. I hadn't even started when I was 25, so I'm so jealous. [laughs] Gareth: Can you talk a wee bit about just the practicalities of transitioning, and you were saying how it takes time and money. What are those kinds of requirements nowadays? Joe: The first step is to get a referral to a psychologist from a GP, so you have to convince your GP that you're serious enough to be sent to a psychologist. But most GPs should realize that it's not their place to make the judgment, and that's why you're paying four million dollars an hour for a psychologist to say, yes, you're actually transgendered. And you need a psychiatric letter from the psychologist, and that's usually a couple sessions worth. They just sort of make sure that you know what you're doing, know what the consequences are and make sure that you're in your right mind and able to take on the... It is a massive thing to be doing, so they just want to make sure that you're okay about it, doing it for the right reasons and that sort of thing. Once you have that, you can get a referral to an endocrinologist. Well, it's different wherever you go. In Christchurch you need a psych assessment first. I think in Wellington you can just go to the endo, but you need to get your psychologist letter after that. So in some respects I'm ridiculously jealous because I could have just gone to an endocrinologist and got my testosterone already if I was in Wellington, but it's just the way Christchurch is quite backwards like that, so psych assessment first and then the endo, which is just a huge period of waiting. It's a six month wait for an endocrinologist appointment here, which is ridiculous, but it's just the way it is, so I can wait. And if I wanted to be awful, I could play the mental health card and say I'm really depressed; I need my testosterone right now. But I don't really need it. I want it really badly, but I don't need it, whereas some people who go to the endocrinologist actually have something really seriously hormonally wrong with them. And why should my wanting to transition be put above what they need physically, to be alive? I'm pretty healthy. I'm alive and my body may not look the way I want it to, but I can wait a few months for my testosterone, so waiting it is, and that's absolutely fine. The surgery is just a money thing, and it's a preference thing. For a trans guy to get his chest done it really depends where you go. In New Zealand it could be up to $15,000, $18,000 maybe. I know a guy who recently got his done for about that much. I'm personally looking at going to Australia. There's a really good surgeon over there and it will be about $10,000, and she does some really good work. I know a couple of guys who have gone to Thailand and they've had results that they're happy with. And one of my friends went to America to one of the best surgeons for chest surgery that he wanted. So it's really just a preference thing, but for me, depending on the size you are to start with, you might need a revision or something, and I don't want to go to America and then have to go back to get it fixed up, so I'm thinking Australia. But yeah, that just sort of depends on how you want to pay for it. I don't personally want to take out a loan, because I've just paid one off and I've nearly paid off my student loan, so I'm looking at saving. And it just sort of depends on the comfort level. Some guys with really big chests just really need it gone, and I can understand that, but I'm quite lucky. I don't really think about it that much because it's easy for me to hide mine, so if it takes me a couple of years to save up then that's fine, I'm really not that worried about it. Also, I'm quite comfortable with my body. It's not the way I want it to be, but I'm quite comfortable with it at the moment, and if I have to live with it like this for a couple of years then that's sweet. Gareth: You mentioned earlier that when you were coming out to your parents in terms of the gender, that you had had depression for a while. Was that specifically because of what was going on in terms of the gender and the sexuality? Joe: I get depression quite badly anyway, and I think a lot of the problem was that I'd been out as a guy, living as Joe for a year, and I still hadn't told mum and dad. I was thinking: These are two of the most important people in my life. Why haven't I told them? I really wasn't sure what sort of reception I'd get, but I don't like keeping things like that from them, and they've always been really good to me. We've always been really close, so I felt kind of shitty about it, of why haven't I told mum and dad? And I knew that once they got used to it they would probably be my biggest support, and that I would need them. To do the transition thing I needed them to be onboard. So it was sort of like the pressure got to me in the end and I was just a mess and thought, all right, I just have to tell them. I'd been doing this for ages and it was getting to the point where I'd have girlfriends who didn't know me as Ange, the girl; they knew me as Joe, their boyfriend, and I felt like I couldn't bring them over to introduce them to my parents because my parents still called me Ange, and they'd be like, who's that? And that would be really confusing for them and really uncomfortable for mum and dad and them. So I thought, I'll just tell them. The sooner they've got a chance to get their heads around it, the better, and I sort of felt like I wasn't giving them enough credit, thinking that they wouldn't cope. I mean, they're my mum and dad, and they've always supported me through everything, and I've put them through hell and back, so why wouldn't they support me through this? So I thought, at least give them a chance, and they have been good. They've been really good to me. Gareth: Has the depression gone away? Joe: No. It's always there. It changes a bit; it gets worse, it gets better. At the moment it's rough. Maybe next week it won't be so rough. But I think growing up a little bit has helped me manage it quite a lot better, as well, just knowing what I need to do to take care of myself. And if I keep the rest of my life in balance, then the depression is okay. It's only when things get a bit out of control, like if I'm having stress at work or a bad relationship or something, that it's quite hard to keep it managed, and I do lose it a little bit sometimes. But generally speaking, I just have to be a little bit vigilant and make sure that I'm looking after all the aspects of my life, which is a bit tiring, and I really wish I didn't have to do it. But at the end of the day, I have depression, so it's really my responsibility to manage it, and if that means just taking two pills a day and that makes me a happier guy, then that's worth it. Gareth: Do you see many mental health issues in your youth support group? Is that something that is frequent? Joe: It is surprisingly frequent, and I'm not sure if it's just a result of being queer or if it's just something that's happening in general with more young people these days, and people eager to make diagnoses and put people on pills and all that sort of stuff. It just seems to be that every second kid in the group is on some sort of drugs for ADHD or depression, or they're into the self-harm thing. It's just actually really, really sad. I don't think it was recognized as much when I was 16. I don't really know anyone who was depressed except myself, and now it seems that just about everyone is. But it doesn't really seem to bug our kids that much, which is amazing. When you think about depression you quite often think you can't get out of bed, you're sad all the time, and these kids are taking the same medication that I do and they're fine. They come around and they're just buzzing, and they're all jumping around with their friends, and it's really cool. They don't really seem to let it bother them. It's just sort of like another fact of life: yeah, I'm queer, I've got whatever mental illness they've labeled me with today, and they're just cool with it. I think maybe they don't make as big a deal out of it as older people do. I think older people live their diagnosis a little bit more, maybe. Young people just think, oh well, you're labeling me anyway. Whatever. But older people are: I've got depression, I've got this, I've got that, and they seem to focus on it a little bit more. Young people seem to feel like they've got too much to live for, and who cares about being depressed, and that sort of thing, so that's quite cool. It makes me sort of look at mine a little more positively, too, I think. I just think, well they don't let it bother them, why should I be miserable? So I think it keeps me young. Gareth: Do you think it's easier coming out now than it was when you did? Joe: Yeah. I think it must be about nine years since I came out, and even now it's just so much easier. When I came out my mum and dad and my friends didn't really know any gay people, and now like every second person is queer, which is cool. I think it's awesome. We should take over the world. But there's so much more queer stuff going on in the media. You know: Oh! Isn't that Ellen DeGeneres queer? Isn't she a lesbian? and that sort of thing. And everyone was like: isn't that guy on American Idol gay? You know, everyone knows of someone who is queer, which is fantastic. And even trans stuff is getting a bit more out there. The movie TransAmerica and stuff, I got my parents to watch that and they thought it was great. So I think people are getting a bit more aware of it, which is quite cool, and it's just not such a huge, big deal any more. People are making such different lifestyle choices to the choices they were making even 10 years ago. People are just doing what they want to do to be happy now, which is cool, so I think it would be a lot easier to come out now. Like, if I could come out now to my parents, I'm sure it would be a lot better. Gareth: So when you were coming out, what were the things in the media, like on TV or in films, that you remember as being queer? Joe: I think when I came out it was around about the time of that program, Bad Girls, where the prison officer was in love with the inmate kind of thing. I was like, oh, she's so hot. So I was like, that's the gay stuff. And I think The L Word was just coming out, too, although I thought that was kind of misleading, because that's not really like real life. Everyone was like, is that what it's like to be a lesbian? And I was like, well, I wish it was, but unfortunately no. [laughs] So, there was that going on. There wasn't really a lot of lesbian stuff going on then. It was more, Priscilla, Queen of the Desert had just come out and was playing in Melbourne, or something, and everyone was like, oh cool! And I'd just hear about a couple of New Zealand celebrities who'd come out as gay – oh, this weather man's gay, kind of thing. But there wasn't really a lot going on then. I think The L Word was the worst bit, though, because everyone was like, is that what you're like? No. [laughs] Oh, and the Topp Twins, which is... I don't know. I think my mum was scared I was going to end up like that. I said, " If I was going to be like one of the Topp Twins I'd be like that already," but I think people just thought I was going to change or something, but I was just exactly the same person, I had just told them about it was the only thing that was different. Gareth: Can you yodel? Joe: No. I can sing, but I'm not yodeling. It's really not my thing. I'm more like barbershop and jazz. [laughs] Gareth: Hey, we were looking through some of your old photographs just before we started recording. What is it like seeing yourself as a young girl? Joe: I think I was cuter then than I am now, and I don't really look at it and think, oh, that was so wrong, that was so wrong! A lot of trans people sort of felt wrong their whole life. I didn't really feel wrong. I was a happy kid. But I think with a lot of young kids, they don't think about their gender at all. Like, you get labeled as a boy or a girl, and you think, cool, but you don't actually care. It's just not important. And it wasn't until it really started mattering, when I was a teenager, that I even thought about it. So I just think, oh yeah, that was just me when I was a kid, and I was just really happy. And I was a really happy kid. I had a great childhood, so I just like looking at the photos. It seems weird seeing me with long hair, but apart from that it's cool. Gareth: If there was anything that you would say to somebody coming out now, either for sexuality or gender, what would that be? Joe: I would just say that there's no right time to do it, there's no wrong time, there's no right or wrong way to do it, and it's different for everyone. Just get support from wherever you can, find your allies and stick close to them. And just be really patient. It takes time. You may have been thinking about it for years, but often the people you're telling won't have been thinking about it, so you give them a bit of a break. I know it's really hard when you're young and you want everyone to understand, so desperately, but people won't always, or it will take them time, and it does hurt when the people you think are going to understand, don't. But, you could be really surprised by people you think that won't get it who are just amazing. So, just be who you are, stick with the people who care about you, and give people time. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 202
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_youth.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003870
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089164
TITLE: Rainbow Youth
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Sam Shore; Tommy Hamilton
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 1980s; Auckland; Rainbow Youth; Roger Smith; Sam Shore; Tommy Hamilton; Wai Ho; organisation; support; transcript online; youth
DATE: 16 September 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Thomas Hamilton and Sam Shore talk about the history and aims of Rainbow Youth in Auckland. This podcast was funded by a generous donation from Roger Smith.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Thomas Hamilton: Rainbow Youth is a queer youth organization that has been running for 21 years. It's based in the Auckland region at 281 K Road, where its current drop-in center is. It gives education throughout the greater Auckland area to high schools and universities and organizations. It offers teacher training. It is run by youth for youth. There is a board of 10 young people under 27; all of the members are under 27 and they vote for that board. Some of those members are also volunteers and they facilitate groups. We have nine groups currently. Two of those groups are just about to start. And some of those groups are regional, and some of those groups are based in the center. And it also is involved in advocacy, giving information to young people. It has three staff members, a full-time executive director, a full-time educator, and a part-time administrator. And we're the only organization in the country, currently, that's a queer youth organization that has a salaried educator that goes into schools. Wai Ho: And what sort of young people do you get coming into the center? Sam Shore: It's hugely diverse. I wouldn't say there was a specific type of young people. We get all sorts of people coming in for all sorts of different reasons, whether it's to find out educational stuff or just coming in and hang out, and we have lots of different resources here like the Internet, and book and movie libraries. A lot of young people just come in and hang out because they think it's just a really cool space. But yeah, it's really varied. I couldn't really say that it was more one than the other, if that makes sense. Wai: But mostly queer?[laughter] Sam: Yeah, yeah, mostly queer. We get a few people who come in and possibly aren't queer, but they'll be looking for information. They might be doing a study or just want to get a bit more savvy to what's going on. But predominantly queer. Wai: So you both work in the office and you must be fairly flexible about people coming in and talking to you when you're working, and that kind of thing? Thomas: That's an interesting topic, isn't it? We have a very unique work and office culture. Sometimes the staffer can't quite tell if they're actually queer youth who are actually part of the center or if they're staff members. They can be just as quirky and upbeat as our members. No, I guess as staff members we have young people who just walk right through the front door. If there's no one in here to talk to they just come straight into the office and they seek out whomever they please, on that day, to talk to. Usually it's not me. I'm the executive director and so I'm the oldest in the room. I guess that gives me the almighty, wise, old-person look that's just not cool. They usually ask if Sam... Wai: It's the glasses. I think it's the glasses. Thomas: Yeah, yeah, it's the glasses and the gray hair. But if Sam or Priscilla aren't there, they'll ask after them. You know: Oh, where's Sam today? And I'll go: I don't know. I don't know where Sam is today. Usually, just because I just love how they actually have so much ownership of their space, that we are granted the right to work in it, you know? This is literally their space, and if they need something they basically come in and tell us. So, an example would be on Tuesday we had probably five people in the office, and they came in saying, " Tommy, we want to change the office around. This place is a mess." I was like, okay, and we gave them jobs. And originally they were a bit upset because they didn't like the poster being up in the window as long as it had been, that's in the window at the moment. So, I did explain to them that that would change shortly, and would they like to clean out the back area? And they basically cleaned out the center and were really helpful, so I guess as employees we kind of had to facilitate that. Wai: Have you done anything to make them feel that this is really their place or do you think it's just happened? Sam: I'm one of the newer additions to Rainbow Youth, but from what I have seen I think that it's such an open space; like, it's such a cool space because people can just come in here and they can hang out and there is such a sense of community. And particularly when you see new people coming in and the other members that are already here are always welcoming and always talk, and I think, more than anything else, I get the feeling that it's the young people that give the other young people that sense of ownership and that sense of community, and really push that it is their space, which is really cool. Wai: And how did you come to be working here? Have you always done community work? Sam: I've done a little bit of it in the past, but pretty much I saw they were advertising for a position, and I harassed Tommy mercilessly. [laughs] Wai: So harassment works quite well? Sam: Yes, until he employed me.[laughter] Wai: And have you always done youth work or queer work? Thomas: Yeah. Wai: Who did you harass for a job? Thomas: The Board. Actually, if you ever go for a job at Rainbow Youth, I'll tell you what: going and meeting the Board when you're over 27 is really kind of... You have to be quite staunch, you know? I got the job. I applied and I was convinced by friends and peers in the community. I did a lot of work in the queer community with trans youth, and I've worked with trans youth for years and years and years, which involves queer youth work, as well. But it's all voluntary. I'd never had a paid job, so it was quite a weird experience to get paid to do this sort of work. It's a real privilege, you know? You sort of think, wow, I've got the greatest job in the universe because it's such a powerful environment. And I applied for the job and I got it, thankfully. The Board hired me through the regular process you go through with employment. There's no hazing or you don't have to dress in chicken suits or anything like that; you just kind of apply for a job like normal, and you get it. And yes, I was part of the process of employing somebody like Sam, and it's really hard to find people that really understand the community so well. With Rainbow Youth we work really hard to ensure that the culture of the organization isn't run by staff, it's run by the members. And we're a human service, so we take every single approach in a human way, so sometimes our process can be really kind of jumbled looking or chaotic, but it means that we're doing things that young people want to do. Wai: Anything in particular that you do that would be really different from other places that are staff run and staff focused rather than community or membership focused? Thomas: Yeah, the way that the groups run. The staff don't have a lot to do. Like, the Facebook page, for instance, is run by facilitators and is run by volunteers. Wai: And so the facilitators are the young people, they're not yourselves? Thomas: Yeah, the facilitators are all the young people, and the Board is all under 27. The whole model is – and I think this has been studied in the past, because the organization's been around for 21 years – every single project goes to the members, so members can be involved on any level they want. And the strategizing of the organization all comes from feedback from the Board that is feedback from the groups. And research we do is aimed at young people, and part of our values and the mission and vision of the organization is what used to be called " youth participation," but we just say it's youth perspective or youth point-of-view. That's young people doing stuff, to be blunt. Wai: Why do you think Rainbow Youth is important? Sam: Oh, there are so many reasons it's important: educating, not just young people, I mean educating everyone. Wai: So even with Law Reform and civil unions there's still a need and there's still homophobia? Sam: Oh yeah! Hugely. I mean, particularly in small-town New Zealand. We have a lot of young people ride in that are not from Auckland or Wellington or not from places where, I guess, education or support is as accessible as it is in the main centers. And for them to be able to have a place that they see that they can go to where they can get this, it's so important. There is a lot of homophobia out there, still, and there is a lot of work that we have to do. And also providing a safe space, and a space for one of the most important things, peer support; so a place for young people to come together, meet other young people that they can share experiences with and they can relate to. That's something that I don't think happens in schools as much, and I think this is quite unique. Yeah, so quite an amazing thing. Wai: Do you know how it all got started? I suppose it started small and now you've got three salaried staff and actual premises that are solid and won't go away. Thomas: We pray to the universe. As solid as any other community group, yes, in these times of hard-to-find money. The way it started was a group called Auckland Lesbian and Gay Youth, called ALGY. Wai: Oh, lovely![laughter] Thomas: No, I think it was quite edgy for its time. And ALGY was from the university crowd, so it's probably what is today UniQ. And ALGY formed – I think it was '85 or '86 or something like that. And then in '89 they changed the name to give it more of a... I think they were looking at youth issues in general, and it started to be Rainbow Youth. Then Rainbow Youth started employing a part-time youth coordinator, and it went through a number of phases where there was a house – there used to be a Rainbow Youth house because big issues back then were homelessness. Not that they're not now, but there was funding for things like homelessness, suicide. And the house ended up not working out. Lots of people over the last 21 years have done a lot for Rainbow Youth to get to where it is today, in the community. So yeah, I think it was 1989 it changed to Rainbow Youth, and they actually became an incorporated society and got a constitution and all that jazz. Wai: What would be some of the funnest parts about your job? Thomas: My job? Wai: Yeah. Thomas: The funnest parts are playing Wii. Wii is the computer game, the TV game, just to clarify. I'm very competitive, so sometimes if a bunch of people come in that aren't so comfortable, you know, a good game of Wii will get them going, like a good game of competitive tennis or bowling. And I remember when I first started, one of the members left because they were moving house. They left their Guitar Hero here, so I remember I used to hide on the beanbags behind the couch and play Guitar Hero after dark when no one else was in here. I'm just kidding. Interacting with young people is my favorite thing. It doesn't matter what I'm doing. Sometimes, occasionally, I'll turn up at a group and share some information. I don't turn up at groups often, but it's them coming in and saying things like: Tommy! I've got an A+ on my assignment! And it's a young person who, when I first met them was shriveled up like a little pebble and wouldn't even talk, you know? And they'd sit on the couch and I'd be talking at them for about 20 minutes, and now they come running in and tell me that they've got an A+ on an assignment and that they're getting on with their lives. They're really amazing people, and they just needed that moment to say to somebody: Hey, what do I do? And another part of it I really like is getting out into the community and getting organizations that started the queer organization sector to understand what the hell was happening for us, and to get us involved with Youth Line, Youth Town. That stuff's really exciting for me – getting young people who aren't queer understanding what it is and [that] it's no different to them. That's kind of exciting. And also, we have a culture here which is so diverse and so interesting. We have problems, like everyone else, in gathering that diverse structure, but I think we have a real commitment to building that so it's sustainable and so that we continue the nature of a diverse culture in here. Wai: Apart from funding, what would be some of the big challenges facing Rainbow Youth, and also the queer youth groups and sectors and that kind of thing? Thomas: Homophobia in schools, safety in schools is a huge challenge. Just getting schools to recognize that homophobia is a form of bullying, that it is prevalent and it is affecting students to the point where they're harming themselves: self harm, suicide, drug abuse, alcohol abuse, homelessness. And it's so subtle. Making education around sexuality and gender identity compulsory in schools. If we didn't have to teach it, that education, if all we were doing was giving resources to the schools or getting involved on subcommittees in Parliament, getting other queer youth organizations involved in subcommittees in Parliament, to make sure that that was part of the health curriculum, that that was actually a behavior that was not just about sexuality and not just about gender identity or about sex and how people have sex, which is actually talking about relationships and how people relate to each other, if that became part of the curriculum, that would make homophobia disappear, you know? It would be easier for kids to go to counselors and say: Hey, someone's being a bully and throwing pies at me. Or: I have to leave this school because I'm in a relationship with someone and their parents are saying we can't have that relationship, so I don't get my education. That's affecting a whole person's life, not just the school. So, recognizing our young people's needs in those schools is a key element of that, and one of those things is sexuality and gender identity being part of that curriculum. Issues around young people and homelessness still occur, and drug and alcohol use is so prevalent in our community at such a young age, we need the government to help visibility around our community. We need young people being seen as same-sex attracted people, or trans youth being seen as the identity they prefer, and we need government support to help achieve that. We are a minority within the community, and I think sometimes it's been shelved a little bit. Statistics and research is really important. We need research on our youth, and that research needs to be aimed at them, for them, not about them. And we need a national body for the queer youth in general. Queer youth ourselves have been talking about it. Rainbow Youth has done some research, which we're finalizing at the moment, the recommendations to begin that process, but we need a queer youth network that's relevant to those young people now. And basically I hope that in five years time we have regular funding from people like Ministry of Youth Development and Ministry of Social Development to actually get some of these things up and running, and that we don't have to scrimp and save just to be able to get our educator into schools, that there are educators in all our youth groups, that there's a position available in every region for a Sexuality and Gender Identity Educator, because it is compulsory in schools to have that topic. So, it's hard to say what the other issues are outside of funding, because so many of these issues require funding, but we're working in many ways and we're being very creative to combat these issues: the You, Me, Us campaign, which looks at healthy relationships; strength-based approaches, we're following the youth strategy and including youth voices in as many of our projects as we can that are from the broader community. We have a GLBT drug and alcohol network working group in Auckland that is pulling together resources between the organizations to talk about these issues, raise awareness of these issues in the community. But we can only do so much until it starts to become the need for a campaign. Wai: So, what are some fun parts about your job, Sam? Do you also hide behind the beanbags and the couch and play Guitar Hero? Sam: No, I haven't played Guitar Hero yet. I think, like Tommy, being able to chat and hang out with young people makes me feel younger. No, it's really cool. Wai: It doesn't make you feel older? If that happens to me I'm like, what? What does that word mean?[laughter] Sam: We were out here the other day just talking. You get to have these amazing conversations, which is just really cool, and you get to see people come out of their shell as they get to know you and as they get more comfortable within the center, and it's so awesome; it's so cool! And I really enjoy, in a really sick kind of way, getting to do all the stats and stuff. [laughs] I know! I know! Wai: Oh, you should see someone about that. Sam: I know, but I sort of get this weird kick from being able to help put together resources and look at making Rainbow Youth sustainable. And there are so many awesome things that are happening here, and being able to be part of that and seeing that we're implementing these processes that last, I get very excited. And also I occasionally get to go out with Priscilla to be involved in her education sessions, and they're amazing. They're so cool, and it's so much fun to just be in a room full of 14 or 15 year olds and watch this collective light bulb go off in their heads. Like, you can see it in this group of people when they realize what homophobia is or what's going on or how they can make a change, and that they need to. And that's so awesome, yeah. So, there's a lot of cool things about being here. Wai: You mentioned, or someone mentioned, there are nine groups that run? Thomas: Yeah. The groups are:ID for over 18's, and that's in the center. GQ for under 18's, and that's based in the center. And Gender IQ, which is a gender identity group. Those three groups that are based in the center tend to be centralized and tend to have lots of people from the different regional groups meeting as well. They come to these groups. The regional groups include: Out and About, which is in East Auckland; Out West, which is in West Auckland; and Queer4Sure, which is in the North Shore. And then we have activity groups which are like Queermation, which is a bunch of people that meet and watch animation that's queer, and they'll be going to Armageddon this year and joining Youth Line at the table. So they're involved in the outside community as well. It's one way we get our word out. The other group is Go Active, which is kind of basically like the ID group, wanted to do something out of their support group meeting because activities and a support group don't really match, so they do things like go laser tag, 10-pin bowling, picnics, and all sorts of weird stuff, but they do that in different times, you know? And then another group would be a women's focus group, which they haven't figured out their name yet, but the whole idea there was that at times the gender of people turning up to groups can fluctuate, so it can ebb and flow between male-identified and female-identified, and at one point ID, the over 18 group, was becoming very male dominated. So, we thought to help create a bit of safety and make the younger women feel comfortable about coming back into the center, we will have a girl focus group so at times when that happens we don't lose that female energy from the organization. So that's exciting. And I think that's all of the groups, but groups can appear out of the blue. Groups are devised by young people. We don't think of them. The young people say what they want and they develop the group, and they have posters, they have their Facebook page. Every group has a Facebook group on it and they have members who join that, so there's this whole social media sort of realm to the groups, as well as the actual, live group. And then it's all been put onto Curious. org. nz, which is the national hub for queer youth website. And then they've got their posters and they just liaise with me, or the facilitators of the groups telling me what they want to do and what they need. And the groups that meet regionally tend to meet in cafes, so they tend to be smaller and just conversational based, so that's why we maintain lots of... the groups that meet at the center, there can be up to 30 to 40 people attend that group in the larger groups. And some of the members will attend three or four groups, so they're busy. They have a busy social schedule so there's a lot of communication required. [laughs] A very vibrant part of the organization. Wai: The kinds of queer communities are really, really diverse, and sometimes there can be tensions, I guess, between gay men and lesbian women, or cis queer people and trans people. Are those tensions ever apparent with the young people here, or is that just an older person thing? And if there are, how are those tensions dealt with? Do you see that at all? Thomas: Yes. We see that in the sense that people are coming to our center who are younger, and they might not have explored or understood any of those issues. They might not identify as lesbian or gay; they might be bisexual. They might have questions around their religious beliefs. All these things get discussed within the groups, and you'll hear them having vibrant, energetic debates out here. And you'll hear the trans youth, for instance, who are involved in the wider groups, they'll tell other young people that they're being trans phobic. And in the discussions between the lesbian and gay male cultures you'll hear statements that are the young gay males putting down the lesbians, because it's something that happens, and the other younger women will be like: Shut up. That's not cool. And if we're in the office at times, we don't let young people come in here flouting about how they've been out the night before and got really wasted, or if they say something offensive and nobody else is saying anything, we stand up and say: Hey, you know, that's kind of offensive. Not in a bullyish way, not in a mean way, but we're just really clear that you talk with respect in this space, and the way we maintain that is, in this space here everyone must respect each other. Any group time, everyone must respect each other. If there's a problem and somebody's being homophobic and a facilitator can't deal with it or the group can't deal with it themselves, they can come to me and they can come to a staff member, and then we will, in a really nice way, take them away from the group and say: Look, what you're saying isn't really nice, and you might make someone feel sad. And usually that's fine. The other issue that can come up, though, that's probably more of a problem is people in relationships within the groups. So our facilitators are trained to deal with that. Wai: And for the large part there seems to be a culture where they'll just kind of converse, and that's where a lot of understanding comes from? Sam: Yeah. And sort of linked into that in the previous question, there are events and things that happen sometimes, like we had, not that long ago, the Intergenerational Forum at the Charlotte Museum, which was so awesome because it wasn't just that there were these two sort of parallel age groups, but there were all these different people: lesbians and gay guys and trans and all these people coming together for one purpose instead of splitting up into little groups. Everyone was talking, everyone was sharing their ideas, and everyone was feeding into this one thing. And it was so cool because everyone brought a different strength and a different idea and it was such a great day! And so there are things like that that happen where people do get to come together and they do get exposure to one another's thoughts and opinions, and you get to sort of see the strength that comes out of that. So there's really cool things like that that happen as well. Wai: What were some of the big things that came out of that that younger people could take away or older people could have taken away from that shared space? Sam: I think that probably one of the things that came out was the need to communicate and talk. I think that's probably something that, personally, I think has waned a bit. Wai: Across age or across diverse kinds of groups? Sam: I think both. I mean, it was really highlighted, because it was an intergenerational thing, between age, but I think that it applies to all areas: that need to communicate where we've come from, our history, to communicate how we feel and how we're affected as we travel through to each other, because I think sometimes we forget that within our community. And that was really awesome to see, and I think it was a bit of a reminder that we are all in it together, and it's really cool what we can achieve together. Wai: There's sometimes a bit of a stereotype or an assumption that young people just want to party and they're not really interested in history or they're not interested in the stories of older people. Is that something that you see, or are young people really, really interested and just haven't had a whole lot of opportunities to have yarns? Sam: That was one of the things that came up and was talked about, and I think there is that generational thing of young people maybe potentially not seeking it as much, but then there was also highlighted the fact that that information wasn't passed down in the same way that it might have been by the generation before. You know, there wasn't that emphasis to really talk about it and to go out and, particularly, something that came up was HIV and AIDS. When that first emerged the people that it really hit hard would go out into the clubs and they would tell the young people to make sure you're.... But, you know, it was really verbal and it was really there and it was really in your face, and that's sort of waned a bit. We've become quite poster and media orientated now, but you lose that effect of actually having someone walk up and be like: Make sure; this is really important! And so I think it was just our verbal language kind of disintegrated a bit, but it's coming back, I think. I think there's an awareness that it needs to be there. Thomas: And I think from an older person's perspective, I noticed that the older people kind of didn't realize that the younger people still had the same issues, and it was a real check-in for them. Many of those people that were at the Intergenerational Forum came back to the center and they've started integrating into the center. Like, many people in the community felt that Rainbow Youth was just a youth orientated space, and us reaching out to those wider communities has helped them to understand what we actually do in here. Yes, this is their space, but they are really desperate to interact with everyone. So, at the Intergenerational Forum I saw one of our younger members, for instance, caught up with a very strong, very politically motivated member of our community, and absolutely besotted in wanting to gather the knowledge from them, which is so powerful. And I was really amazed to see that, and I thought, oh, this is something we must nurture for young people. As an organization we must focus on building bridges between the age gaps. For instance, now we've got a project which we're doing with a couple of our members who are trans, so they're doing vox pop sorts of videos from people within the trans community. So that gives them a chance to interact and work with older people in the trans community. These sorts of things, I think, have come from us doing that project, and it's been a leading example. I think it also highlighted that in our community we don't support organizations that are building our historical information. So, the Charlotte Museum, for instance, is not supported enough, and I think that was another element where the young people felt that they could be involved in something like that. So, it's very fascinating to see all that come to fruition, and I think the outcome will be really interesting. The great thing will be that at the next Big Day Out, all our young people will go past and go: Oh look, there's the Charlotte Museum. And they'll know what that is. That is a really positive outcome. Wai: So, if I am a person who's not just a young queer person, how would I find you – Rainbow Youth? Would I just drop in? Sam: Well, we have all sorts of different ways. There's the Internet. A lot of people find us [that way]. There's a lot of word-of-mouth. A lot of people, I think particularly after Dancing with the Stars, people saw Rainbow Youth and it became sort of nationally known, and so I think that name's out there now and it's really floating around. And then we have resources that are out there as well in schools for young people to use. But I think predominantly most people just Google. We're on the Internet. We've got an awesome website with heaps of information, and that's how a lot of people access us. Wai: Or you can just drop in? Sam: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely! Yeah, that's what the drop-in center's all about, and we do have a lot of people that walk past and just come in and be like: Oh, I need some information on this. Or, I just want to hang out. Or, I need some help with my CV. Wai: And that's office hours Monday to Friday? Sam: Yup. We're open from 10:00 until 6:00 usually. Wai: Awesome. Thank you very much, both of you, for having a yarn about Rainbow Youth to us. Thomas: You're welcome! Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 200
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/lesbian_programme.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003871
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089165
TITLE: Lesbian Programme
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Prue Hyman
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 1980s; Alison Laurie; Armstrong and Arthur Charitable Trust for Lesbians; Linda Evans; Maxine Gunderson; Prue Hyman; QUILTED BANANAS (Wellington Access Radio); Robin Shave; Wellington; lesbian; media; radio; transcript online
DATE: 24 September 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Prue Hyman talks about the Lesbian Programme which has been broadcasting since the mid-1980's on Access Radio in Wellington.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Wai Ho: I'm here with Prue Hyman who has stuff to do with Lesbian Radio. Did you help start it or how did you get involved in it? Prue Hyman: I didn't really help start it, although I did the occasional programme from pretty early on. It's been going a really long time. Alison Laurie and Linda Evans were two of the founding group, and for a while they did the whole thing themselves, for quite a number of years, which is a major commitment. And then if they went off overseas or anything I used to do the odd programme to fill in for them, and occasionally I was interviewed on it, as well, myself. And then it got to the point, very sensibly, when it was too much for them to do it on their own anymore, and they had done their time. And there have been a lot of different collectives since then, and large numbers have always been involved after that, but there's always been one major coordinator person, and there have been several of those since Alison and Linda, but I'm the last, and I've been going as coordinator – I was trying to work out; I can't remember exactly when I started – nearly 10 years, anyway, I've been coordinating it. That's probably an exaggeration. Maybe it's seven, but anyway it's quite a long time. The person before me was Bronwen Dean, who sadly, died about three years ago. She still was an occasional broadcaster right up until her death, but she was the one that persuaded me to take over from her. I think we were partners at the time or we'd just stopped being partners and she'd just had enough of being the main coordinator, and so I took over and I seem to be landed ever since. I've been making noises in the last year or two that, you know, I'm 67 now and I'm still very energetic and quite happy doing it, but one's aware that you're hoping to broadcast to a huge range of lesbians, and a lot younger than me, and that maybe it was time for one of the younger ones to take over, but nobody seems keen at the moment. I've got some people who do some of the tasks, which helps a lot. Wai: When did Alison Laurie and Linda Evans start Lesbian Radio? Prue: I knew you'd ask me that. Wai: You can make up a date. [laughs] Prue: I never got around to quite looking it up. Lesbian Radio started, and it wasn't just them, actually, at the very start; there was a group of several, and I think people like Robin Shave, Maxine Gunderson and Tighe Instone were all involved, too, but they weren't involved for as long, and it was Linda and Alison that did the long stint. They were involved almost from the start of Access Radio in Wellington, which is coming up for about 30 years. It's something like that. It was very early on in the late '70s, early '80s, and when Access Radio started, and when Lesbian Radio started it was actually an offshoot of the Woman's Zone programme. There was a Woman's Zone programme which ran weekly, and it was given over to lesbians for one out of four weeks, or something like that. We had quite a struggle to get that, in the usual sort of a way that happens with lesbian organizations. And that was okay for a while, and then this group of people thought, heck, we can manage our own program and go every week, not once every four weeks. So that was after probably about a year or so of being part of the Woman's Zone programme, we started our own. And of course Woman's Zone is long gone, and Lesbian Radio has broadcast week in, week out, without fail, usually going live, which is quite unusual in Access Radio; only a small proportion of the programmes go live rather than pre-recording, particularly weekend ones. We've gone every week ever since, and I think we've only gone dark maybe once – somebody didn't turn up – and a few times their transmitter has been down, but basically we've gone every week since then, which is a pretty big achievement, it seems to me. And it's an hour, of course, and it's on Sundays from 10:00 until 11:00, and we go live so you have to remember all sorts of things. Like, this week I've reminded the people that are on that the clocks go forward an hour so they've got to get there an hour earlier [laughs]. It's all sorts of things you have to remember with radio. So, there we are; that's the history. Wai: So it was kind of late '70s, early '80s, around that time. Prue: Yeah, around that time. Wai: What was the climate like then? Was the climate then the need or drive to set up Lesbian Radio or was it just a group of lesbians who thought, oh, it would be cool if we did a radio show? Prue: I think the drive was very much political and awareness and activism. I think the whole climate around that time with Homosexual Law Reform and human rights and lesbian political action had been going for awhile with things like the magazine, Circle, which had been going since the earlier '70s, about 1973 I think that started, but of course there wasn't Access Radio, Community Radio then. So it was heavily an activism thing, but also an outreach thing. People who were questioning their coming out, it was another source apart from coming out groups where before you declare yourself you can listen and see what lesbians are doing and what they're saying, and they're not particularly scary but they are activists, and a lot of lesbians then were feminists, as well. Some still are, not all. [laughs] So there was all that going on, and I think from the beginning that was the main motivation, plus, of course, just publicizing all the events that were on in Wellington. We still do that. There's probably less need for us to do that anymore in the sense that, of course, there's the websites. Ellen runs the website; she's also a member of our collective. And there's lots and lots of email groups and so on and so forth, so there are lots of ways and social networking and Twitter and Facebook and everything; there are lots of ways you can find out what's going on. And I tend to like to do a program, when I'm on, that's very full of real action. I give interviews and politics and some music. I haven't mentioned music yet – I'll come back to that. So I don't spend very long on the notices; I tend to do the things that are very urgent that are coming up in the next week or two, and the things that go on every week I say: go to wellington. lesbian. net. nz and you can find all those there, because it's a waste of time duplicating that. But we have a very varied sort of content. Everybody does the notices. Either to greater or lesser extents, everybody plays some music. And apart from that it's entirely up to the individual presenters as to what sort of range of things they cover amongst lesbian stuff. And I think that's very healthy. We try and have a big range of presenters who will appeal to different bits of the community. We don't do terribly well about the range of ethnicity – we're mostly Pakeha. We've had some Asian presenters and Maori presenters and Pacific, but not very many, and they're busy with other things as well, which is very reasonable. And we try and get a range of ages and we try and get a range of interests in different lesbian activities. And we're always open to new presenters. I'm always keen to get them. They can always contact me and there's stuff about that on the website. If there's anyone listening to this who's keen, get in touch! We've had some quite new presenters lately. There's a lesbian, feminist, queer, book group and two of their people are now onboard as techies, because that's the other big thing. We also have to run the technical side ourselves. Now, we didn't used to do that. Access used to provide a technician, and then you could choose whether you did or didn't provide a technician yourself, and we went on having it provided because with such a range of presenters, and you only get a turn every eight weeks or something, it's quite hard to remember exactly everything on the technical side. Wai: So many knobs. Prue: Exactly, and it's quite hard to do both, particularly the people that go on their own. If there's two of you it's not quite so difficult. So we preferred to have a techie provided, and we paid a little bit extra in order to do that; not much, because you have to pay a fee to be on air. And then suddenly we discovered we were the only programme left with a techie provided. I didn't realize it, and they said: your time is numbered. We were very lucky for a while; a woman called Yanyo, who was part of the volunteer techie things for Access generally, was also very lesbian-friendly. I'm not sure that she identified as lesbian, but she was happy to become our techie and used to come in every week, which was a heck of a commitment. And then she was going away and another lesbian called Marilyn, who was also a volunteer for Access was prepared to do most weeks, and she did it for awhile and also trained up some others. Some of our own presenters trained a little bit to do it, and we started appealing for techies, as well, and now I've got a roster which has something like 11 or 12 lots of presenters, either in individuals or in pairs. A few are taking time out and may come back and so on and so forth; it's about that many. And we've got six techies now on our roster who take turns, so we're not too badly off, but we're always willing to have more. And people come and go for good reasons. We've had a lot of babies recently. In the beginnings of Lesbian Radio that wasn't a common reason to be disappearing, but it is now. [laughs] And one or two have died, sadly. So people come and go, and others have things happen in their lives and they don't want to do it anymore or they get fed up with it, and that's fair enough. But we're very vibrant. We go every week, as I say, and we go live 10:00 to 11:00 on Sundays, even over the Christmas period when Access is shut, because we've got our gadgets to get in, and there we go. And that's basically the way it works. Wai: You said that when Lesbian Radio got a week out of four from Woman's Zone, that was kind of difficult. Was there controversy around there being lesbian radio or was it more that they didn't want to give up one of their weeks or something like that? [laughs] Prue: I don't think it's been that much of a problem. Alison, who was around and involved in that at the time, and Linda, would know more about it. I wasn't involved in the politics around that. I think it took a bit of getting it, as always with the lavender menace [laughs]. That's more of an American expression, but you know, fighting for your space within feminist stuff. But I think it was okay, but then when we got our confidence that we could do it every week, that was even better, and there we go. And I think feminist politics are still alive, but an awful lot of organizations have gone. I mean, a lot of lesbian organizations have gone, too. I think the big thing about Lesbian Radio is that you get the discussion and the interviews, and that you can't get in any of the other media. Oh, you can get a bit of discussion on Facebook or whatever, but you get that live, whereas we haven't got, for example, a Wellington lesbian newsletter anymore. We've had lots of them over the years. There's one in Auckland. There aren't many around where you can get those sorts of things, so that's its main function as far as I'm concerned, is for the politics and for outreach to new lesbians and lesbians coming to Wellington for the first time and all that sort of thing. And of course, now it's beyond because you can now listen to it on the web any time. That's only developed in the last two or three years where Access have put the podcast up on the web, and it goes up a few days after and stays up for about five or six weeks. They have five or six up at a time so you can listen to those. And beyond that, those podcasts, in the old days we used to tape the programme, are all available. Practically the whole lot – I think there are a few missing – most of them have gone to LAGANZ, the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand, and there's a project on at the moment that I think just got funding from the Armstrong and Arthur Charitable Trust – I may say a bit more about them in a moment – where some of them are going to be put into better form. The old tapes, which don't last forever, are going to be put onto a better electronic form. So a lot of the programmes will be there for posterity and future researchers and future lesbians to listen to, which will reflect the changing mores of lesbian society and community culture, which is great! I should pay a tribute at this point to the Armstrong and Arthur Charitable Trust for Lesbians, who fund us. They've also funded this research project to put those programmes on a better electronic form, but they fund us every week. We pay something like just under $50 a week as our Access fee, and they fund that basic fee and our small annual fee. In the old days it was the Dude's Dances. I think when it first began there wasn't a fee, but once the fee came in it takes enough energy to do the programme and the preparation for it without having to do all the fundraising, so our group's very grateful that we don't have to fundraise the whole of that ourselves. We usually have one fundraising thing at least a year, and I think we're doing a raffle at the next Pines Dance, and sometimes we raise a little bit at the Out in the Square thing or something like that. But we don't have to do most of the fundraising ourselves, which is terrific. Wai: What have been some of your favorite discussions or interviews? Prue: Oh gosh, that's really difficult. I love publicizing what's about to happen, so things like the film festivals each year. We always give that a big plug – the Lesbian and Gay Film Festival – and talk to the people who have been choosing the lesbian films for that. I like it when we publicize. We're in the middle of publicizing the AsiaPacific Outgames for next March and the games, the conference, the culture, all that sort of thing. I think it's really good when you can give that a lot of air plug. But also some of the more political stuff; we've done interviews with people overseas sometimes. We don't do an awful lot live, but we've got a new, very dynamic presenter of US origins, who's a singer/songwriter called Paula, and she's been in festivals and things in the States before she immigrated here. She's got Nicaraguan background as well. She's done one or two things with America live, and you can do it but it's a little expensive. But when people would travel overseas they'd often do interviews, and bring them back, with all sorts of people: lesbian political figures overseas were always good, and just simply all the discussions in New Zealand when we've got stuff around the Civil Union Bill, and we tend to do the more vibrant arguments around that. I mean, everybody sort of assumes that lesbian equal rights means you want marriage first, civil unions second, but there are quite a lot of lesbian feminists who think: why do we want to join an institution which feminists have critiqued for years? So, reflecting all those bits of politics, not selling a line, but every presenter is allowed to give their own views, but also I like to interview people who have different views. We have to be careful with national politics immediately before elections and things like that. There are Access rules, and there are also rules about defamation and things, so you've got to take care like any other broadcaster even though you're not a professional. But certainly I think the more controversy and real discussion you get going, the better. But other people will just do more social things, and that's fine too. Esme is one of our longstanding presenters, and she often does interviews at Out in the Square with all sorts of people that are doing their own stalls there, and that's always nice. So everybody differs a bit about what they want to do. But I think people, if they listen to long ranges of programmes, they'd find some really interesting things. I think my favorite ever programme, for me, that I did myself, was before I was ever even a coordinator. I'm Jewish by origin. I don't count myself religiously Jewish, but I'm Jewish culture and history and so on, and Tilly Lloyd, who runs Unity Shop had a bit of involvement with the programme, not a great deal, but she persuaded me to do a programme about being Jewish in the lesbian and feminist communities, and lesbian and feminist in the Jewish community, and what that was like. I had great fun doing that programme. I also did interviews with a group in Auckland who were Jewish feminists, and a large number of them were lesbians, who were involved with fighting for Maori sovereignty and talking about links between being outsider groups, if you like. And they had a big push, and all of that was very interesting stuff. There's been a lot of good memories from doing the Lesbian Programme. Wai: Has the... I'd say readership, but I guess you don't really read radio... listenership, has that changed much over the years or is it hard to say? Prue: Well, one of the sad things is that it's very hard to know who's listening, and sometimes you're scared that you're only talking to yourself and the other presenters, most of whom are interested and listen. Chris Walsh is another terrific stalwart of the programme. She's not on at the moment; she's well known for her activism over breast cancer. She and her partner both have had breast cancer and she got too busy with all that to stay on the programme, but she's been on for many years. I'm not sure that it was part of her degree, but she certainly did do a degree, and she also did this research project. She did a research project on our listenership at one stage, and that was interesting and helpful for knowing what people wanted, but that's quite a long way back now. These days it's very hard to know. One thing you can look at is the number of hits on the website. It's much easier now. I'm sure we've lost some listeners who do it on the web instead, which is absolutely fine, but we've gained. And at one point last year we were the second highest Access Radio programme for number of hits, to Wellington Community, which was the broadest sign. I thought that was absolutely terrific. And there were hits from all over the world: from Canada, Japan, Britain, the States, all over, as well as a lot of New Zealand ones. We hope that they're all genuine hits and not pervs. Certainly I think most of them are genuine, and that was exciting. And you get informal feedback. You know, when you've been on yourself somebody will say: Oh, I heard that. This particular bit was good. But unless we do another solid piece of research, it's very hard to know. But I think there is a real need for it, particularly given, as I say, that we don't have much else for discussing things. We have the other ways of finding out what's going on, but I hope there's still a need for it, and I hope that we'll go on finding people that want to do it, and that the Trust will go on funding it. Bronwen, who I mentioned before was a previous coordinator, left quite a lot of money to The Armstrong and Arthur Trust, not conditional on the radio, but certainly made clear that the radio was one of her big things that was in her heart, and they earmarked that interest from that bit to do this project of putting more programmes electronically. So, hopefully, as long as the community feels a need for it we'll keep going. Of course, media changes. Maybe it'll get to the point where the electronic stuff completely beats radio, but I don't think that's in my lifetime anyway [laughs], so I hope we'll be able to keep going for a long time yet. Wai: It's quite different when you can hear something. Yeah, I think it's a really different medium being able to hear stuff, not just see moving pictures and that kind of thing. Prue: Yeah, that's why the interviews are all so useful. I mean, we do more hearing on the computer than we used to. Wai: Yeah, I think that's really interesting because someone was telling me about when radio shows, or whatever, can go on the Internet they have a longer tail – I don't know what a tail is. But yeah, because they stay online you don't have to listen live and you can catch up on it later. So there's listeners from all over the world, you've said. Prue: Yeah. Well, certainly I don't know whether they're regulars, but they visit now and then at least, which is quite exciting. And for example, TMLN, the Auckland newsletter, carries an ad for it usually with the website so as to remind people up there. And I'm always telling people to remember that they can get it on the web and try and get publicity for it that way. We had leaflets at the Out in the Square to do that; when we do the raffle at the next Pines Dance we'll have a leaflet advertising and giving the website as well. You know, just trying to get the word out amongst new and younger lesbians who may not have heard of it. Wai: Are you aware of other lesbian radio shows around the world? Prue: There certainly used to be lots, but I don't think there are that many. Christchurch used to have one, and I think that one's gone; I'm not sure. Funnily enough, we had a request from the Southland Access Radio just this last week: Could they replay our show because the manager there, who I don't know whether she's even lesbian, but she tried to get a lesbian radio show going in Southland and didn't manage it. Could she use ours? I just emailed around our collective to say: I can't see any reason why not. Is anybody bothered? I'm sure they'll say yes. And I thought to myself, why is she bothering? It's on the web; they can get it. But on the other hand, if somebody is used to listening to Southland Access, they may hit it in a way they wouldn't hit it on the web. Wai: And not everybody has Internet access. I think sometimes we can forget then we think that everyone's got Internet access. Prue: That's true, too! But also, people use different sources for finding things, and they might find it that way when they wouldn't find it the other way, and that sort of thing. So, I'm sure there are still other programs around the world, but I think it's interesting the way, from my experience, New Zealand sort of keeps the " L" word very prominent, whereas an awful lot of things get subsumed into queer soup or into feminist in a lot of places. Even, you think in America, the Michigan Women's Music Festival is a women's music festival. It's mainly lesbian. Wai: Why do you think that is? Why do you think...? Prue: Oh God, I'm not a theoretician enough to know, but I think out here we've been very staunch about lesbian politics. There are others, of course. There are a lot of younger women who don't want to use the lesbian word, who would rather use the queer word, just as they don't want to use the feminist word, but want equality [laughs]. You know? So, I think history, things change, but I think there are at least a lot of lesbians in New Zealand who want to keep lesbian politics alive, whether the younger generation will want to as well. But we've got quite a few younger women on our collective, and I think on the library collective and so on, so there are still some younger women who want to use the word lesbian and who do identify that way politically. And okay, we all have fluid changing identities and all that stuff, but nevertheless, there are some for whom that identity is an important one, and not only 67 year olds like me, some younger women. Wai: Have you always been really vocal? Have you always done public speaking? Is that why Lesbian Radio interests you? Prue: Well I am professionally an academic, and you know, you're used to talking in 50 minute bites anyway and like the sound of your own voice. [laughs] Wai: So, good training. Prue: Right. Back in my university days in England, because I spent my first 25 years in England, I was involved when I was at University in Oxford. It was while I was there that we fought.... I was a feminist back then. I was only 18 or 19, but I don't know whether I would have called myself one there because in the early '60s the second wave wasn't that much going, but I certainly believed in equality, and women couldn't get into the Oxford Union. Remember the Oxford Union? That's the thing where David Lange's famous debate about uranium nuclear.... Wai: They couldn't get in then? Prue: They were not admitted. Women were not admitted to the Oxford Union. It was a male-only club. It wasn't like a student union. You had your student unions within your college, but this was the Oxford Union, which was a debating club and a nice gentleman's club. Wai: But within the university? Prue: It was within the university. Wai: Within a coed university? Prue: Within a coed university. Wai: Wow! Prue: And women were not admitted, and so we fought for it and we got in while I was there. And so people said you have to put your money where your mouth is and join, and you better start speaking. Wai: Did they make a fuss about it when you tried to join or were they kind of like, oh yeah, it is a bit old-school that we don't admit women? Prue: Well, we had to fight for it. [laughs] But we won. So that was about 1963 or something and I was about 20 and a young undergraduate, and I started making speeches at the Oxford Union, which is one of the most frightening places you could ever do. If you can speak at the Oxford Union to that whole big crowd, when you get one of the big paper speeches, then you can speak anywhere. Wai: Were there hecklers? Why was it scary, because it's such a big prestigious thing? Prue: Yes, just a very big audience, very critical. Wai: Not people throwing apple cores. Prue: No. No, nobody would be ungentlemanly or unladylike like that. No, it was just a pretty daunting audience, and I think after that I could speak anywhere so I don't find talking on the radio too difficult. I sometimes talk a bit too fast because I've always got too much to say. I've been criticized for that in lectures, as well, and I'm aware of it. I always want to put more into the 50 minutes or the radio programme than there's time for, but I've never had any trouble with it. It's sort of interesting; we take all comers who have got the confidence to be on-air here, we're happy to have them, but you do have some worries with some people's voices being better than others for radio. And some people, I find, and I'm certainly not mentioning names, some people are absolutely terrific, and some people have wonderful content but not that terrific voices, and some people have terrific voices but I wish they'd have a little bit more content. And many of our broadcasters are terrific at both. But one doesn't want to discourage people being on-air, and so we tend to take them. We've had controversies over the years. That's probably an interesting thing for this, about because of lesbian culture and what is lesbian changing, there've been hard liners who say, for example, that we should absolutely only have lesbian voices and lesbian music. What is lesbian music? By, for, about? We always have those problems with how we define things. But often with women musicians you're not 100% certain whether they're lesbian or not, and then some come out as lesbians, and so we've tended to get it as culture has changed, and as I say, fluid identities and so on. What is lesbian? Not everybody even on the collective necessarily uses the lesbian word. I think we've got some people who would identify as bisexual probably on the collective and we just don't want to push these things. If they're happy being on Lesbian Community Radio, and that's what it is, that tends to be fine. But controversy about whether we've interviewed... We do publicity about all sorts of queer events. I mean, the fact that there's a Lesbian and Gay Film Festival or Pacific Games, we'll concentrate more on the lesbian aspects, but we've had gay men's voices where they're covering gay and lesbian issues on the program being interviewed; we've had some transgender. There have always been issues in lesbian politics about male to female transgender people and whether they can be lesbians. I try and avoid that controversy if I can, but I don't think we've had a transgender member of the collective. We've certainly had transgender people interviewed. We're not a very formal organization, either, I should say. We run a bank account and I'm very careful with the money, and we have a collective meeting usually about three or four times a year after a programme. Anybody who feels like coming, we give it publicity and we say we'll talk about the programme and meet each other because people who go in one week don't necessarily see the new members of the collective so we try and get together three or four times a year. But we're not a very formal organization. We don't have formal policies. We evolve and it's worked, although sometimes I think maybe we ought to be more formal, and then, ah, who wants to, you know? People want to go and make their programmes; that's the main thing. Wai: Has there always been this kind of controversy around identity and labels and cis women and trans women and that kind of stuff, or has it only been in the last few years? Prue: Well, I think it was probably worse earlier on in the sense that I remember... I mean, people talk about the lesbian feminists of the late '70s or '80s as being rigid and wearing overalls only and being really anti boy-children and so on and so forth, and I think some people really did have that experience. I think some lesbians who had boy children really did have problems. I won't run down that experience at all, but I sometimes get a bit upset about it that it gets exaggerated and that people who weren't around at the time criticize the lesbian feminists of the '70s and '80s when they were doing a really big job when it was really hard to come out. They had to be much braver to be out as a lesbian in those days than you do now. But I think in some ways the controversies were more then, when people would come – I don't know how much it emerged on the radio – but people would come to lesbian dances and somebody would say: Oh, well she's not really a lesbian; she's still living at home with her husband, and things like that; I think that was worse then than it is now. I think they're probably a bit more tolerant and easygoing. And some people think there are losses in that in that we aren't fighting enough of the political battles. Now we may not have quite as bad political battles as we did as lesbians, but most lesbian feminists also had an awareness on race and class issues and those are still active and important, and poverty and treatment of solo mothers and Maori and Pacific issues are as important as ever, and I think lesbian feminists should be on the barricades dealing with them all as much as ever, so I don't think we want to lose the politics. Wai: Fantastic! And how would we listen to you? Where, what days and et cetera? Prue: Oh, right! Sunday mornings 10:00 to 11:00. It's only on AM – 783 AM Radio Access, and that's the live one. And then if you want to listen on the web you can either go to the Wellington Lesbian website, wellington. lesbian. net. nz and there's a connection there to Access Radio and direct to the Lesbian Community Programme. Or you can go to the Access Radio site, which is dead easy to find, and they have a list of all their programmes and you just look for Lesbian Community and you find them there. Wai: Brilliant! Thank you very much, Prue, for taking the time and talking with us. Prue: A pleasure! I enjoyed it. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 198
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/laganz.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003867
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089161
TITLE: LAGANZ - The Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Roger Swanson
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Lesbian and Gay Rights Resource Centre; National Gay Rights Coalition; Roger Swanson; Wai Ho; Wellington; archives; gay liberation movement; history; homosexual law reform; organisation; transcript online
DATE: 7 September 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Roger Swanson talks about the history and purpose of LAGANZ - The Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Wai Ho: So I'm here with Roger Swanson to talk about LAGANZ. What is LAGANZ? Roger Swanson: Right. LAGANZ is the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand, and it's a number of collections of material about gay, lesbian, transgendered, intersexed, and the whole queer community, really. And our aim is basically to collect and preserve for the future so that people can research, and [those] who are interested in their own history will have a place to collect it, because we feel that as sort of minority groups on the edge of society, society's not really interested in our histories, let alone collecting them. Certainly if you go into your local library it's a lot better now, you'll find gay and lesbian books and stuff, but 20 years ago there was nothing, really, other than some stuff about how sick and how dreadful we all were. [laughs] And there may have been some books on scandals and Oscar Wilde and some historical things, but they were all told from a very shock/horror point of view, they weren't told from our own view and in our own insight. So the archive, when it started 20 to 25 years ago, that was the premise: that we'd collect our own material so we could tell our own story. And things like a lot of newsletters, magazines, books, radio programs that started being produced, no one else was keeping them, so we're keeping them now, and we're keeping them for anybody who wants to look at them or research or do some research. Wai: How did it come about? You said that mainstream wasn't collecting any of our stuff. Who decided? Roger: Well, it started really with the campaign for equality and legal recognition of our relationships. Back in the 1970s there was a group called the National Gay Rights Coalition that formed, and they had a resource and they started collecting material for the campaigns, basically – information, reports, New Zealand, overseas – anything that would help them with the campaign. And that started building up a collection of material. So, one of the members of the task force that was doing this work was a librarian, so naturally thought, well we'll keep this material and put it in order so people can find it. That's what librarians do; it's really boring [laughs], but it's very helpful if you want to find something and it's been indexed or catalogued or put in some sort of order rather than just a mix of papers in a box, as we all know. That's how we store our own stuff, I suspect, so when you go there to find it, you know.... And of course, they were doing campaigning, petitioning politicians or talking to politicians, getting petitions, doing all sorts of things for political reform, and so they needed good reliable information. There was the AIDS epidemic that came up in the early '80s. There were all sorts of other things, so you needed to be able to get statistics and be able to say, no, no, no, the real story is, blah, blah, blah. And how many people are supporting gay rights in New Zealand? Is it 10% or 100% or somewhere in between? So you needed to really have that sort of vital information so you could punch it out and counteract the negative publicity that came out. So that all accumulated into the great campaign of 1985 – '86 with the law reform campaign led by Fran Wilde at Parliament and by a whole task force of gay and lesbian people throughout the country. And so the Resource Center was really a powerhouse behind that and provided anyone who was speaking with information, helped them find out facts, gathered up anything that was being produced at the time. They also produced, I think, some booklets refuting some of the arguments being put out, and so they were quite an active, very involved, very campaign-orientated group. So the archive grew, and once the campaign was sort of over, the archive existed but the campaign people went their various ways. So the archive continued in its own right because people recognized it as a valuable collection of material, and it contained the papers of meetings of, say, the Homosexual Law Reform Society, the Gay Task Force, the AIDS support networks that started up a few years before law reform, and people were gathering books and various things like that, so they were all there. And like I said, there was a librarian looking after it who catalogued it and put it all in order and had it very nicely put together, and so that resource was there. Just after the campaign ended in '86 there was an arson attack on the Resource Center. The Resource Center used to be on Boulcott Street, originally down in the basement there, then it moved up to the 2nd floor, and there was an arson attack one night when some guys came in and saw what it was and started lighting fires. But they fortunately were a bit stupid, as these people usually are, and they didn't do a very good job, thank goodness. And the fire brigade were amazing; they came in and didn't immediately start tossing water everywhere. They saw what it was and used dry material to put the fire out. And there were just little fires scattered around, there was quite a bit of smoke damage, some papers were destroyed that were out being used, but most of the material was either in filing cabinets, which meant they were somewhat safe, and material on bookshelves, amazingly, got singed around the edge but didn't catch fire. So the collection was sort of smoke covered and a bit of dust and stuff, but mainly survived, and so it was rescued by the Alexander Turnbull Library who stepped in and said, " We'll offer you space to dry the collection out and to do work on it," and so.... Wai: Was that quite a big deal for them to offer that? Roger: It was, actually, but it's sort of part of the Turnbull Library ethos and the way they work. They would certainly do it for any collections around the country. Wai: Kind of like one librarian to another? Roger: Yeah. Yeah that sort of thing – a bit like what's happening down Christchurch at the moment; people help friends, rally together. So, that happened and the collections were removed and taken down to Courtenay Place where the Turnbull Library, at that stage, had some storage space, and were spread out and cleaned and dried and what conservation work needed to be done on them got done on them. They were sort of in that state, so the archive wasn't accessible but it was in a secure location, and safety was, of course, important since it had been attacked. Wai: Had it been targeted or was it people who were going to light fires anywhere that.... Roger: I think it was sort of random. Some guys got into the building and they discovered or came across it. It may have been targeted, but it didn't quite seem that way. I think it was just a couple stupid guys who saw gay stuff. Anyway, I don't think they were ever caught or anything, but the collection was saved. And because the Turnbull Library had been involved with the trustees, there was a small group of people involved with the archive at that stage. I was involved with it at that time, back then, and a number of other gay people around Wellington. And so when we negotiated with the Turnbull Library they were keen to preserve the collection as well, because they saw it as a valuable collection, and particularly because the '85, '86 campaign had generated a lot of material, and really interesting material for research: the various attitudes and just the people involved, and the significant change it made to gay and lesbian lives at that time. It was a really valuable research collection, so they were keen to have it within the library. So, the gay community, through various people around involved in various community groups, agreed that it could be lodged at the Turnbull Library, but still be owned by the gay community. And that's the agreement that was agreed with by the Chief Librarian at the Turnbull Library: The collection would be housed at the Turnbull, would be made accessible – so on Turnbull premises but in reading rooms, et cetera, people could use those. It would be staffed and accessed by curators who were from the gay and lesbian community, and as they happened to be staff members of the Turnbull that was probably a good reason why it actually happened this way, because the library had confidence in its staff. And it also seemed a win-win situation where the library got a very nice collection of a community that's really hard to find information about, and they had dedicated staff with it, plus the community had a safe place to keep material, so future donations would be known to be safe. They wouldn't be at risk of being destroyed or anything like that. So yes, a very valuable collection was housed in the Turnbull Library, preserved but available to the gay and lesbian community as they needed it. And so over the years quite a few people have donated their own personal papers. Organizations have donated their papers. Because most gay and lesbian organizations are voluntary, and you know if you've ever been involved in any of these, it's quite hard to get people to take minutes of meetings, but they do. And the accounts and all that sort of stuff have to be kept somewhere, and they're usually under a bed, in someone's shed, all that sort of stuff, and they get lost or the secretary moves up to Wellington, up to Auckland, to Sydney or whatever, and so the papers are at great risk of never surviving. So we're very lucky that over the years various people have said, well, I can't store these anymore, or, what am I going to do with all this junk I've gathered? And we are a good Junk – we take in the junk, which we think is very valuable. And often those secretaries, who had been secretaries in the days of gay liberation way back in the '70s, had some minutes of the meetings, a few newsletters and things, and that's all that survives of that group other than people's memories. And so we've got those, and often some newsletters which have lasted for 5 to 10 years. We've got those and, you know, no one else keeps them because they're not substantial enough, but as they're gathered in a group they are very useful for anyone who is researching life in rural Auckland, or wherever, down South: What gay and lesbian groups were existing? What people thought at the time, and what were the issues they were dealing with? So, over time we've got quite substantial collections, and some of the big organizations such as the New Zealand AIDS Foundation deposit their papers with us, and records; The Homosexual Law Reform group, which existed for about 20 years, so there's their material; a lot of, like I said, gay liberation groups. There are some social groups: The Dorian Society. I think there are some lesbian groups, their papers; the Amazon sports team. So there's quite a range of material and we got some material from Mika, the performer. We had her shoes and dresses at one stage, but we decided that they weren't quite what we needed to preserve, but we've got samples of some of that material. Wai: So is it mainly papers there. Roger: It's mainly papers or paper-based. Wai: Right, so papery things. Roger: But we have got radio programs. Wai: Not sequin-y things. [laughs] Roger: I would love to have that, but sequins are more Te Papa's side of things, and we did try and persuade Te Papa that they would like to have an archive of those, but they were interested in various one-off bits rather than a complete archive. But we do have radio programs. The Lesbian Radio, we've got discs from that. Gay BC, Wellington radio, Christchurch, I think, and some Auckland programs, which go on week after week after week. They mount up quite a considerable amount of programming, and often they're just on cassettes, so we've started transferring those into digital forms. We've done quite a bit of that with the law reform material that was recorded at the time and transferred into digital format. We also have some film material from the law reform period that has never been screened, but this is the raw material that's never been turned into a film, so we've had that digitized as well, for preservation, because it was not really accessible in its original state. So, we have film and we have sound, we have paper, we have photographs – that's the other area. We have quite a lot of photographs from various people's collections. We've got some private collections of people's personal photographs of their day-to-day lives; we've got some who've been semi-professional or professional photographers who, at law reform time, went around taking photos, or at other gay and lesbian events, so we've got quite a wide range of that. So, the formats vary. We've got posters – a lot of posters – I think about 600, 700, or 800 posters of you name it: dances, political, social, whatever we can get. And they're a really nice collection. And we've got buttons and badges and all those sort of ephemera type stuff that people have put out over the years. So it's a really nice collection, particularly for display if you're having an exhibition, and we've had a number over the years of material from the collections because that's another way to promote it. We've had one in the National Library Gallery, which was 20 Years of Law Reform and covered that whole period up to 1986. So there were various attempts in the '70s and '60s at changing the law in New Zealand, so that was a landmark exhibition we had there. But we've had various photo displays around at different venues and things like that, so the more variety of materials you've got, such as T-shirts and that type of thing, we get some of those, and a few videos and DVDs, depending on what the material is. Wai: So you've been involved for many, many years with LAGANZ. Roger: Yeah. Wai: Do you have favorite pieces? What do you get out of it?[laughter] Wai: Do you just really like organizing things? Roger: No, no. I like the idea that the material is being preserved. I was, for a while, one of the curators when we had quite a lot of hands-on stuff. Now I'm a trustee on the Board. LAGANZ is managed by a Trust; it's a charitable Trust, and registered, and we have a number of Board Members who manage the service, and we have curators who provide the access, and that's sort of the structure. And I was a curator for a number of years, helping out. And I just really enjoyed looking at the material. It was interesting and great seeing that it was being preserved. And my librarian role is basically has been on the access side, on the front desk, and so I enjoy working with people looking for information. So that was just another aspect of my career, and I really enjoy that sort of work. It puts a private interest, which is the gay side of my life, together with my work, which is librarianship and the public – people inquiring and looking for material. So that's where my interests were. And of course, quite a few of my friends were involved with the archive at the time, so that was really nice. It was a nice social thing, as well. Wai: So librarians have a real... or I guess, especially archivers have a real reputation, or maybe a stereotype, for being really organized? Does that mean that your meetings go really easily? Roger: Not really, no. We certainly do take minutes and keep the minutes and make sure that we're a bit formal about that sort of thing. Wai: Is there a big fight for who wants to take the minutes and things like that? [laughs] Roger: No, no. I am the minute secretary for the Board at the moment and it's my job to do that. That's not a problem. The Board itself consists of a number of gay and lesbian men and women who are from outside of the library. We have two Maori from Tiwhanawhana who are with a group, which is a recent development of getting connections with that group because that's one of the outreaches we want to improve. Aspects of the collection want a larger Maori component, or to see what is around that would be of interest in the collection, and would the collection be of interest to Maori researchers, as well. Particularly, we have one Pacific Island person on the group. We have three or four lesbians on the group who've been involved in their communities for a long, long time. And there are about three or four gay men on the group. So, we try to reflect the interests of the gay and lesbian community, queer community, as much as possible, but we're really quite conscious that we're all getting rather old – we're all sort of the older generation – and there's a whole generation of young gay and lesbians... whatever people call themselves. Wai: Is there a new generation of young librarians? Roger: I don't know. I think there are. We hang onto our jobs very securely here, and don't let them go. But there certainly are, out there. Wai: So is that one of the challenges – to try and attract younger people? Roger: I think so. It is interesting that someone made a comment that young people don't really know their past, and think what today is is how it's always been. And we do have the students from Victoria University come down, the Women's Studies group, part of that is gender studies, and they use the archive. And often they're quite shocked at the law reforms. They were just 20 or 25 years ago, which was before they were born, or when they were tiny little kids and it wasn't their thing. Wai: But really not that long ago. Roger: No. No, it's not that long ago, but they know nothing and are quite shocked at the attitudes. The civil union was our most recent public spat, I suppose, and fight; and the same attitudes came out there. It was almost like déjà vu. These people hadn't gone away. They were still lurking in the woods there, and they came out saying the same horrible things. Wai: Like Groundhog Day. [laughs] Roger: But fortunately New Zealanders are generally pretty fair minded, and they could just see it was a lot of nonsense, and they had seen that the world hadn't collapsed when Law Reform happened back in 1986. The world hadn't fallen in and civilization continued. Wai: People were still having babies. The human race wasn't dying out. Roger: Yeah, and their kids weren't being raped. Yeah, all that sort of stuff. All that nonsense that these fringe extreme groups come out with, and it's the only time they ever get heard of, so it's probably the only time it gives them an excuse to say something to get to the public. But that is a worry that if people take the current situation for granted and think this is how it's always been and we don't have to do anything, gradually their civil rights, their freedoms, will be eroded and they'll be subject to a new whim of whoever gets into Parliament and what the flavor of the day is. And if what happens turns out to be anti-gay, or we all have to be the same or straight or something, then I think people have to stand up and say, no, we are a multicultural society of a diverse nature – some gay, some straight, some intersexed. There's a whole variety of sexualities out there, which I think is probably one of the recent learnings of people, is that it's not just gays and lesbians but this whole variety. And I suspect young people reflect that more now, and don't actually just go into the boxes of gay and lesbian and butch and femme and all these sorts of things that are very strange when you look back: people fighting, in the gay community particularly, over whether you wore a dress or not and had you been out and all that stuff. But young people have a whole variety. They still face a lot of pressures at school of bullying and violent areas, and the family is quite a dangerous area even though it's supposed to be supportive, it can be quite dangerous for young gays and lesbians and transgendered kids, so they need safe places. And I think a strong community, which LAGANZ can help support, is really necessary still. We can't just sort of pretend everything's fine and pack up and go away. Wai: So, LAGANZ kind of acts as a history holder or a story.. [crosstalk]. Roger: Keeping our memory alive; and the memory is really important because I think if you just look at the Maori community and the Treaty of Waitangi, if the Maori hadn't kept the treaty alive as a memory that would have all vanished. The reason that they are having settlements and getting some of their land back and getting the resources back and getting their communities back together is because of their memory. And I think they've remembered the treaty, they haven't let it die. Wai: They had to dig it up from some attic. [laughs] Roger: Yeah, which is now over at National Archives being looked after and is a very impressive looking document. But what is says is that our society is based on an agreement, and if one side forgets that agreement and pretends it didn't happen, then we're in for trouble. And so I think the gay and lesbian community need to keep their memory alive, not in a remember the good old days of the war sort of thing [laughs], which you can sort of get stuck in, but really looking for opportunities to celebrate our community and its diversity. Wai: Yeah. So, you have exhibitions every now and then. How do people find out, or young people in particular, maybe, find out about LAGANZ? Is it just students up from Vic? Roger: We do a wee bit of advertising. We've got a website. We do need more outreach; we're quite conscious of that. We've got the Out Games coming up next year. We'll be running a conference as part of that Out Games, and so that's a really good opportunity for the archive. We'll be having telling-our-stories sessions as part of the conference, which should be really exciting. We've published a couple of books from conferences that we've had in the past, so they're available if people want to buy them. So, the conference at the Out Games will be really important as an outreach for us. It will remind Wellington yet again that we exist, and also to interact with the international community when they arrive in Wellington and are attending those fabulous Out Games that's going to be here. So yes, that's those who... but getting contact with young people is really difficult. Wai: You talked a little bit about accessibility and quite a lot of the stuff that's in the archives. If I was a young person or if I was part of a queer youth group or something, would I bowl on in? What would I be really interested in looking at? Roger: At the moment the archives are in a bit of a strange situation because the National Library building is being redeveloped in Molesworth Street. That's where the Turnbull library is. The Turnbull Library is part of the National Library; it's a bit confusing. Wai: So, like a library in a library. Roger: Yeah. And it's the research side, and so New Zealand's history is basically researched in the Turnbull Library. So if someone is writing a new book about the history of New Zealand, that's where they would work; a good part of the work would be done there. And that book would end up in every school and every home in the country. So again, the Turnbull Library is a powerhouse behind research and our history. Wai: The secret power of librarians and libraries. Roger: So we've got all the stages of stuff there, and that includes the gay and lesbian collections. So the building is closed for refurbishment at the moment. They're improving the storage conditions and some of the building plant was failing and things like that, so it was time to give it a good cleanup, and so they decided to move us all out. [laughs] So we're in temporary locations at the moment: One in Archives New Zealand, where some of the Turnbull material is, and that's where the LAGANZ manuscript collection is available, so that's the unpublished materials such as diaries, journals, papers from organizations and such. The rest of the collection is actually in lockdown and at the moment is not available, which is a pain, but will be available again in 2012, and that's the published material. And that was really done because there wasn't enough space to find places for everything, and also it was sort of thought that the published material, some of it is available elsewhere – not all of it, but some of it is – and so it would be the least impact by closing that side of the collection down. But the organization is still up and running, and like I say, we're planning for the Out Games. So to contact anybody, I would suggest going to the website. We've got lists of things that are available there like the list of the manuscript collection, and what's available in the archives is there, so you can scan down those. There are about a couple thousand items there. Wai: Quite a lot. Roger: It's quite large. It's quite a large collection. Wai: Is it a little bit overwhelming? Roger: It is and it isn't because a lot of it, being in a library, is packed in beautiful boxes and packed in acid-free folders. It's something you would never do yourself, at home, but because the Turnbull has high conservation values, material that comes in is inspected for any infestation, so any little creepy crawlies are gotten rid of. They're put into acid-free material so it lasts longer. It's kept in temperature controlled rooms in boxes that are waxed boxes that won't damage the material inside. So you have rows of boxes with labels on them, which is not very interesting to look at. [laughs] But there is wonderful stuff there once you start digging through. There are certainly people's personal experiences, their own papers, their own letters – a lot of letter writing to politicians and things like that. The Waxing Moon lesbian archive from Hamilton was donated recently, a few years ago. That's there and is basically newspaper and magazine articles, which they clipped and stored and put in some sort of order so they could find stuff. But it sort of covers a period, so it's like information about a whole period that's been preserved. There are a lot of scrapbooks. People have cut clipping books, and put in what they're interested in, so that's quite fascinating reading some of these things that were published 20 years ago, or even longer. So there are those sorts of things. There are the newsletters. We get New Zealand and overseas for magazines and books because there weren't any New Zealand publications when we were growing up, so it was only overseas gay-liberation early publications in America and Britain, and so we've got quite a lot of that material, and that's really interesting to read. So anyone who wants to access the archive need to go to the webpage, look at the curators and contact one of them. It's sort of by appointment at the moment. When the Molesworth Street building was open you could actually just walk in and ask for one of the staff and they would make time to talk to you and sort out what you needed. Wai: Wow! So that serves that function as well, where you can get almost like a tour. Roger: Yeah. The thing with the Turnbull is that most of the collection is behind that stacks, and they won't let you into the Turnbull stacks because there's just so much precious stuff there, and security is a high thing at the library. But certainly we have a public catalogue. Like I said, a lot of material is on the website: There's a list of all the journals and newsletters we have. There's some audio; you can search some audio recordings that we have. There's a list of manuscript papers that we've got there. And there are some other links and some other papers. We've got two books at the moment: Twenty Years On and Outlines: Lesbian and Gay Histories, which are based on conferences and are really quite an interesting read. So, contact one of the curators from there and make an appointment, because they're actually living in different buildings than the collection does, so walking in you'd have to wait anyway, so it's best just to email them and tell them what you're looking for, and we can say whether it's available or not and suggest ways of finding the information if it's not available. There is a huge amount on the Internet now, so I suppose some of the needs for immediate stuff is not as necessary now as it was years ago. Wai: Brilliant! Thank you very, very much for taking time and telling us about the extensive, extensive archives of LAGANZ. Roger: Well, you're very welcome. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 193
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/charlotte_museum.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003869
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089163
TITLE: Charlotte Museum
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Jenny Rankine; Miriam Saphira
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 2000s; Auckland; Charlotte Museum; Jenny Rankine; Mahinarangi Tocker; Miriam Saphira; Wai Ho; archives; history; lesbian; transcript online
DATE: 15 September 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Auckland, Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Miriam Saphira and Jenny Rankine talk about the Charlotte Museum. The museum collects and preserves artefacts of lesbian culture such as labrys, music, theatre, film, literature, art and other memorabilia from early lesbian life in New Zealand.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Miriam Saphira: A group of us started talking about having some Auckland archives to try and send things to the Wellington archives. I'd been involved in the Wellington archives. We didn't get very far, and then in 2003 was the Outlines Conference, and I took the quilt there with all the T-shirts sewn together, and the badge collection, thinking that would be wonderful in the Lesbian and Gay Archives in Wellington, but oh, no; The National Library collects paper, not things. Wai Ho: I know! I didn't realize that. They're real paper-focused. Miriam: And it's also quite hard to get access to the things, so they don't have a permanent display or anything. So, I came back to Auckland, lugged them back, and thought: What about all those art things like over in the cabinet, there? They would all just disappear. Some people might keep them and hand them on to relatives and so on, and they'd think: Oh, that's quaint, or whatever; but they really wouldn't understand the lesbianism of things. And I thought it'll all vanish. So, I talked to the archives group, which changed a bit, and we came up with: Let's have a museum – a lesbian museum. And then: Well, what's in that other museum? Surely there's some lesbian stuff in New Zealand museums. So, that's what the Internet's good for. We punched it in and we got four things. We got a picture of two women in Siberia – two English women in Siberia; they were obviously lesbian, but they had visited New Zealand. Wai: [laughing] And so that was the New Zealand component of the search. Miriam: Yes. And there were three cartoons of Helen Clark. And I thought, if that is a history of lesbians in New Zealand and all we have achieved over more than a century, then that is really sad. So, that was an impetus. I was so angry, that was an impetus to give me a lot of energy. Wai: So, when was that? Miriam: That was 2003, 2004. So, I set about investigating setting up a Trust and those sort of things, and by 2007 we had our first exhibition, “The D Thing” at MARCO Trust, and waited for our Trust deed – we did it in 2006 – to get registered. And that was a thing in itself because I rang up to see how it had progressed, and he said, " Oh, it's in legal." And I said, " Well, it shouldn't be a problem in legal. It's a standard Trust deed form written half Pakeha and half Maori. All we've done is put our aims in it. We haven't changed almost anything else except put our name through it." And then I said, " But we're used to discrimination. It'll be sitting on someone who can't cope's desk." So he said, " Oh, I'll ring you back," and by 3:00 in the afternoon he rang me back and said, " It's passed." That little magic word, " Oh, we're used to discrimination," seems to actually pay off sometimes. So, we set about finding premises, finding money and setting it up. Wai: Was that a real mission? Has it been a real mission or has there been quite a lot of support? Miriam: There's been some support from people in the community – some very good support – and a couple of women put in about $14,000 the first year, and then another $6,000 or $7,000 last year. So each year there have been some backers who've put in several thousand. Other people put in several hundred. They pay a bit, but if everyone in the community paid, as I say, a latte a month – less than $5 a month – to be a friend of the museum, that would make a big difference. In fact, we're just trying to do an outreach now for that. Wai: So, there's heaps of really fantastic visual stuff here, which I guess some of it would be paper. But yeah, like you said before, there's a quilt with a whole lot of T-shirts. Jenny Rankine: There's two of them. Miriam: We've got two of them, so we alternate them because they start to sag after while hanging them up. So we have another one we bring out every six months. Wai: Right, and there's heaps of posters and old photographs – big photographs little photographs. Yeah, just a whole heap here. How did you come about all this? Did you put a big call out or was it all sitting in your basement? [laughs] Miriam: It was around my house. [laughs] My house was renowned for having masses of women's images and things, and some of the things I acquired, for instance that lovely glass vase done by Kharen Hope, the one that's sort of quite sexual. Wai: Oh, the pinky one. Miriam: Yes. There's the one about her grandmother wanting to be a doctor but married one instead, the other one, so it's a more feminist one, but this one is very sensual – that pale one. I saw that in the Waikato Museum for sale and I couldn't bear the thought of a man buying it, so I just had to buy it. And now we have had a very generous donor who's brought replicas of museum items from Crete about the ancients, so there's things with labryses on: that beautiful silver egg cup. There's pieces of ceramic, there's a snake Goddess there. That's one she donated, the other snake Goddess I brought back from Crete. There's a ceramic there of two punk girls kissing – that was made by a lesbian psychologist in the Waikato. So, each one has a little story about it. There are some lovely pieces of Raku ceramics by Paerau Corneal, and she also did the weaving of the kete up there. Those are pieces that Auckland Museum quite liked the look of and would like to get their hands on them, but again, they wouldn't label them as lesbian-made or anything. That would just disappear into an exhibition of Raku work, not what we're about, really. The lovely carving of the two women, and I haven't got that story yet because I can never get anybody at home with the telephone number I was given for that piece. So, it takes a while to get the stories for things. And then there's the carving of Chrissie Paul that was always in my house, and I always felt my house was very safe with that, and I thought I really need to donate it to the museum. But it's on loan because that piece needs to be handled in a particular way when we put it up and take it down, so I've kept it as an on-loan. That and Paerau's pieces are the only pieces, just because I want to make sure that they are very secure and handled in an appropriate way for Maori artifacts. So, everything else has been donated: lots of T-shirts, some fabulous ones with great slogans on; some very historical things like the early Gay Pride from 1980, I think it was, or '79; a CIRCE soccer T-shirt. Of course there are some labryses, and the labryses are gold ones – some of them were used for CIRCE cheerleaders. They used to run around in tutus and gumboots and wave labryses : Come on you lovely lesbians! You know, great cheerleading. Jenny: That was a soccer team. The CIRCE was a soccer team. There was also a CIRCE softball team, but we don't have any of their uniforms yet. Miriam: We've got various coming out stories on DVD that we put on for people to listen to, and I'm busy trying to get some more money so we can have a smaller screen so people can just put headphones on and do them individually when they come in. That's what I'm working on now, and I want to use clips of film so they wouldn't be so long – just three or four minutes. I saw it in Brisbane at an exhibition there and I thought that's what we need. Wai: When you said that you were setting up the Charlotte Museum Trust, what were some of the responses, I guess of lesbians in particular, were they “whoo hoo or..? Miriam: Mostly positive. One or two people found it difficult. They didn't want to be in a museum. Wai: [laughing] They didn't want their photos to be in a museum or they didn't want the museum to exist? Miriam: They didn't like the idea of lesbianism in a museum, so they perhaps weren't out and proud as much as some of the rest of us. Wai: You mean kind of worried about turning it into a spectacle or just uncomfortable about it? Miriam: Yeah, not sure what we'd put in, so that seemed to be a bit of a problem for... Like, Te Papa, when they heard about it, came up to my house to see what we had. They were a bit suspicious, but they also, of course, then saw some of the things that I had in my house and they were keen on them for their museums. And that's one of the problems, that museums are always eyeing other things in other people's museums, because I think they've got a Goddess in Auckland Museum that I think that we should have. [laughs] Wai: You should do trades. Miriam: Yes. Jenny: We've just done a feedback survey. We did it online and sent PDFs around the country to our mailing list and we also gave them out at the Big Gay Out, and we've got 50 or so. You know, you never really get a great response from those things. But, we asked how important was the Lesbian Museum, and almost everybody ticked " Very." Almost everybody; even the bloke – I think we've got one guy who responded who has visited the museum. So basically there's an awful lot of lesbians, and I think they're sort of just the tip of the iceberg, who think that this is a really important place. Wai: Can you talk a little bit about the importance of a museum historically-wise, and I guess lesbian history, inter-generationally, as well? Miriam: Well, for me, I knew I was homosexual by the time I was 14, because that was when I looked it up in the encyclopedia, and it said homosexuals had arrested development, so I thought they were all short and spent years looking for short people.[laughter] Miriam: And then, of course, realized I'd grown so tall that I was a freak – I was the only tall homosexual in the world. Wai: So you weren't in the encyclopedia? Miriam: No, and I was training as a singer, and sadly, I swallowed poison and burned my throat, so I never want that to happen to anybody else – to feel so bad about themselves. And I didn't have any mentors. Sure, there was a short teacher at school who lived with a tall teacher, but I mean, I didn't really, because I was into horses at that stage. When I was at high school I didn't really click about the nature of their relationships, so Bucket and Spade were always Bucket and Spade – those were our nicknames for these two teachers. And it was much later before I realized that these pairs of teachers who lived together were actually my mentors, but I was so naïve and into horses that it didn't occur to me; into horses and my girlfriend, whom I really wanted to marry, so I was devastated when I menstruated because I wanted to marry her. Wai: So, you did manage to find a girlfriend who was short? [laughs] Miriam: She was straight. She was short and she was straight and she, in fact, wouldn't talk to me. We went to Teacher's College together, and that's the reason I went to Teacher's College and left the farm, but she met a guy, on the athletic team, that I was friendly with – and she never really spoke to me much after that – married him, and she's still with him. So, very straight. But, what else? That's what lesbians in small communities do – fall in love with straight women because they can't find other people like themselves. It's quite difficult. Wai: So, visibility's really important. Miriam: And having mentors, I think, makes things enormously better for people; to know that someone's done it before; to know that you come from a history, that you know where you've come from and so then you can know where you're going, because I always think if you don't know where you've paddled your canoe from, how do you know where you're paddling to? Jenny: That's what some of the feedback says. One of the young women said, " I wanted to see the stories of the older women that made it possible for me to be out and gay," and so many of them say it's just really important that this place exists, that these stories are gathered in one place, that lesbian history is valued and told, and it's just really neat to see these women up on the walls, because a lot of the women up on the walls were women people in their 30s to 50s would have heard about growing up. They're well-known women, founders of organizations like The Country Women's Institute, you know, various... [interrupted] Miriam: Yes, contemporary theatre. Jenny: Yes. And so that's really important to know that these were women like me, you know? Miriam: And knowing that most of them managed to avoid getting married. Some of them didn't. And they managed to lead their lives. The theologian Rita Snowden lived quite openly. She died about 1947, but there's a picture of her with her partner, Renee, and they lived quite openly together. They belonged to different churches. On Sunday they went off to their separate churches, so they didn't quite clone as much as lesbians today might do. Wai: Do you think visibility's still an issue today? Miriam: In some areas it is. There are still plenty of areas where people choose to be more closeted. People in the media are one, because they get such a hard time. Sports people are another. We've just been doing research on sport, and it's amazing the number of people who find it really difficult to really tell us how it was as a lesbian in the sporting field they were in, because they don't want to be outed, even though they're no longer participating in that sport. Yeah, so there's still the stigma, and I think a lot of internalized homophobia that among older people still exists. For years you thought you were no good and terrible. It's very hard to overcome that when you've been thinking that every day of your life for 40 or 50 years; to suddenly turn around and think everything's hunky dory now, I can skip around amongst the daisies [laughs]. You know, it's not so easy. Wai: So, the Charlotte Museum does some research? It has a lot of artifacts and pictures and books and magazines and it does research. Does it have a mentor thing, as well, or what's some other stuff that it does? Miriam: No, we try and fundraise and pay people to do some research. We've done some research on early lesbian theatre, early lesbian music, and that's going to be put together into a film and also a little book. The theatre one is up on that board there, and we've got a book about that. We're currently working on early lesbian sport, early women's networks and groups of lesbians in the Auckland area, and early takatapui in Auckland. So, we're going as fast as we can with the resources that we have, but we never get very much money to do these things. Jenny: The other thing we're doing is organizing events, and we've done a range of events since the beginning of this year. The first one was an ANZAC Day event, and this time instead of inviting lesbians from armed services we invited some lesbians who had been in peace groups. They were the Pramazons and they'd walked around the East Cape for two or three months in the middle of summer in 1983, and they were a little discombobulated to find themselves now the subject of a museum, because they were only in their 40s, you know? But they were lesbians and feminists and they did this amazing action, and it was a peace action. And there are so many lesbians involved in peace activities over the last 30 to 50 years that I think we'll have lots of ANZAC Day events like that. Another event we had was on the centenary of the birth of Tuini Ngawai who was a Ngati Porou songwriter, an extraordinary woman of huge mana acknowledged right across Maoridom, who only had relationships with women and whangai'd a bunch of children. And whenever Ngati Porou get up and sing they practically always sing one of Tuini's songs. And we have some or her whanau here who spoke about her, and it was a really neat event. We had a bunch of Maori and Pakeha lesbians that came to that one. And we also had the two intergenerational events. One was organized for youth week, and we got a lot of really positive feedback about that. The first one was completely inclusive of all GLBTT people, and the young gay men, particularly, young queer guys, were really interested in it. And the sense of anticipation when that event started was just tangible, you know? There was this really expectant silence. It was just wonderful. There were more than 60 young people or people there, and 40 of them were probably under 25, and it was just a really positive event. Then we had the follow-up event with women, and that sort of showed quite a few differences in the community, but I hope people felt it was a good event. It was very... what's the word? There was a huge enthusiasm for that dialogue. It's not something that we would necessarily be able to do as a regular thing, but we wanted to kick it off, and the role of the Charlotte Museum in holding that kind of community event, I think is quite important, because there's no sort of women's venue that focuses on queer or lesbian issues in Auckland. And so, the Charlotte Museum has become a sort of de facto queer lesbian women's center, really. And so, for example a couple of years ago when Mahinarangi Tocker died there were women who weren't able to get to her house or to her tangi, which is down the line, and so we organized a sort of memorial event. It was just an opportunity for those women who contacted Miriam and I, in various hats that we were wearing at the time, saying: Oh this is terrible. I just really have missed having an opportunity to talk about her. And so that was open, like all our events are, to the public. We had men, women, trans men, trans women. It was a really lovely event, and some of her whanau came, which I thought was enormously generous of them in their grief, to do that a week after she had died, but they actually found it a very positive event. There was just this huge community grief about such an early death of such a wonderful woman, and it was a really positive event talking about the meaning she had had for all of the people there. And there were all these wonderful stories. So that was a really neat event. And, for example, the Tamaki Makaurau Lesbian News Center is holding its 20th anniversary here this coming Saturday, and so there's a bunch of events like that. We've just had our first local history event, and what we did was Miriam talked about why she set up the museum and what was involved in the 52 Policy Statements and the Standards and the way in which you have to conserve things and the labeling and the databases. That's the policy folder. Wai: It's a very large folder.[laughter] Jenny: And I talked about a really brief overview of the history of women loving women for the last 200 years, and the way in which Maori acceptance of love between women was completely disrupted by colonization and missionaries and church denominations, and the way in which Pakeha attitudes changed markedly in the 1880s from an acceptance of passionate friendships and women having those kinds of intense public relationships, to treating lesbianism or love between women as something that was sick and to be hidden. And that was quite positively received by the dozen people from different local history societies who came, and so we're hoping to have local history events every six months and we'll bring up the results of our research in the inner-city inner west areas that we've been funded to do at the next event. And the next one we're having in October is a DVD night with the BBC movie, The Secret Diaries of Anne Lister, which is about a woman in the late 1700s, early 1800s, who had almost a contemporary sense of lesbian identity. She never called it that; she didn't have that word, but she said her attractions were to the fair sex, and only the fair sex. And she had two long-term relationships and lots of other sexual relationships with women, and she wrote it all down in code in a diary – four million words of it – which has only recently been decoded and published. And so the BBC did this 1½ hour movie about it, which will never get on the TV screens here, and we're going to show it on October 17th. Wai: And what are the kind of demographic of people who visit the Charlotte Museum? Is it mostly lesbians? Is it mostly women? Are there lots of young people, lots of researchers, lots of older lesbians? Miriam: It's mostly lesbian; not many researchers at all. It's always disappointing that there aren't more lesbians out there doing PhD's on that – we could give them lots of topics. The sports one would be a good topic. And then there's the other group that's just a variety of mixed people, men and women, some straight people come because their daughter or sister or somebody is lesbian and they want to come and tell them about it. Sometimes they bring a relative with them. A lesbian brought her daughter and grandchildren once from out in greater Auckland, so it was about an hour away and they came one day. So yeah, a whole variety of people, but that's probably 10% to 15%. The bulk of people come to events, and like on Wednesdays during the week we get the odd visitor – like yourself. But Sundays during the winter we don't get so many visitors. The most time we get most visitors is probably between February and about June, and then it sort of fades off with the damp weather. Wai: I think you talked a little bit before about when you had these intergenerational events or youth week, and you were saying the anticipation or the excitement of the young people. Why do you think that is? I think there's a big stereotype with archiving and libraries and museums that it's boring and stuffy and old. What do you think the anticipation was about? Jenny: Oh, it was about dialogue with people who'd gone before. And I think there's a big hunger for that among young people. Wai: They don't often get those opportunities. Jenny: No. And one of the things that came up was that in the really early days, in the '50s and '60s, when there was just the beginnings of a community, everybody used to socialize together. Some of the lesbians in our coming-out stories on DVD say that they were part of that. And so it used to be the gay men, the lesbians, the transgender people, the prostitutes, everybody was in the same pub drinking together. And what used to happen was that, especially the gay guys talked about this at the Youth Week event, there was actually a sort of informal but very sort of organized, I guess, transferral of knowledge and understanding about what it meant to be queer, how to be safe, from the older guys to the younger guys. Women, I think, didn't do it in quite the same way, but that kind of informal passing down of knowledge, and the sort of socializing together has stopped now because the community is so big that gender queer can socialize with gender queer, and lesbians with lesbians, and never see gay guys; and gay guys ditto, and never see lesbians. So, it's so big now that we're all in our little sort of identity groups and we don't socialize together. And so, especially with young people and older people, the older people aren't hitting the young bars, and would feel dreadfully out of place if they did, and so the young people don't actually meet any older lesbians or older gay men. With trans people I think the community is still small enough that they do. But that's how it is now, and so those kind of informal ways of picking up how to survive, survival knowledge, and an awareness that there are others like yourself, and what they've gone through, there isn't that kind of structure for it anymore, so it needs to be organized. And so, that's what the hunger for it was. I'm sort of still thinking about that; about what role the Charlotte Museum can play. The Trust did talk about that. It's not sort of a core function, we've just got all our work cut out for ourselves doing the research, conserving the stuff, getting all the new stuff that people dump on our doorsteps and give us boxes of, and cataloguing it and sorting it. We're really still behind in the cataloguing, so the community organizing is the sort of second string, but it is... Wai: Might have to delegate. Jenny: Yeah, well yes, we could delegate. Miriam: Yes. That's why we employed Jenny, because I just got exhausted. Wai: Yeah, it sounds like it's a real hub and it sounds like it's been really successful in achieving things that weren't even really its aims or whatever. Miriam: Yes, but raising the money has always been the hard slog. Our rent last time killed us. It was 2,000 a month, and so this is half the size and it's half the rent. So we'll be tight in November. October and November is always a difficult time for most groups because you get very little funding coming in at that time, particularly for operating costs and admin and rent. Wai: So, how can people find you if they'd like to come and have a look at all the incredible things on the walls, or give you some money for rent and admin and that kind of thing? Miriam: Well, they can go online and see our website ( http://www. charlottemuseum. lesbian. net. nz ). They can get our address off the website, or they could read the TML News – the address is there. They can pick up a brochure from the Women's Bookshop and there's usually some at Garnet Station and a few venues around, like Rainbow Youth has our brochures as well, with our address on. And they can come along on Wednesday afternoon between 12:00 and 4:00 or Sunday afternoon between 1:30 and about 3:30. I mean, we'll stay a bit longer if someone turns up at 3:00 of course. Jenny: Yes, or Facebook. They can find us on Facebook. And our events we're trying to advertise more widely, so for example we had an article in the Harbor News, this issue, about the local history event, and also it's on Stuff, and we're going to be putting out, like for example, Event Finder, some of the Auckland City Council events website – we put our events on that. So we're gradually getting our marketing, spreading it around into more and more avenues, so we're hoping to become more visible as we go on, but mostly if you want to see us and participate: Wednesdays and Sundays in Mount Albert. Suburban Mount Albert is where it is. Miriam: Anybody can be a Friend of the Museum. You don't have to be a lesbian to be a Friend of the Museum, and we have a number of friends who are not lesbian, so I guess that's one thing I'd like to say. And unless people support us financially, it will be too hard to sustain. We have to be sustainable. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 141
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/bill_logan_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003849
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089143
TITLE: Bill Logan profile
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VOICES: Bill Logan
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: Bill Logan; Wai Ho; Wellington; activism; gay; gay liberation movement; homosexual law reform; human rights; politics; profile; transcript online
DATE: 24 February 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Bill talks about growing up, being an activist and his role in homosexual law reform.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Wai: So here we have the respectable Bill Logan, who's a counselor, a gay activist, and a revolutionist. Tell us a bit about that Bill. Bill Logan: Oh, my goodness! Which part of it? The respectable part? Wai: [laughing] Oh, why not. Bill: No, I'm not very respectable. I grew up in the '50s and '60s when New Zealand was a very quiet place, and I probably found that rather boring. And then I hit University and the anti-war movement, and got involved in protests and student power and all sorts of things like that. I spent my 20s mostly overseas building a small, left-wing organization, and learned a hell of a lot about Marxism and that way of looking at the world. Marxism is a program or an idea for changing things, but it's also an analysis of how things are now, and both of those things have stayed with me. I still want to change things, fundamentally, and I still think that it's important to have intellectual frameworks to understand things. And the Marxist intellectual framework is the one that I think works best. Wai: So how did you get from quiet, small New Zealand to wanting to do student politics and activism and Marxism and social change stuff? Bill: I guess that had a lot to do with being at University at the right time, and probably also to do with being a gay man and not yet recognizing it, and therefore not quite fitting and struggling to find a way to fit and a way to understand what it was which didn't work about me in the world. And you try all sorts of things. That takes a while if you're slow like me, to see that actually one very important part of it is a sexuality which is a minority sexuality. Wai: So what was it like, I guess not fitting in, but feeling like you didn't fit in. What was the kind of climate around gay stuff? Was it just not talked about, or was it actually quite vehement and anti? Bill: It was mostly not talked about. I do remember occasional bits that were talked about. I remember a forum on the laws about homosexuality at University in, say, 1967. Wai: Where did you go to University? Bill: Here in Wellington. Wai: At Wellington, yup. Bill: And this policeman, a police superintendent, was talking about why it was necessary to maintain these laws. I didn't recognize myself as gay, but I and the people that I knew thought the laws were stupid. And this guy was worrying mostly about anal damage through... [laughs]. It was sort of bizarre. Wai: [laughing] And anal damage was against the law? Bill: Well, there should be a law to prevent people putting themselves in a position where anal damage might occur, apparently. And it just seemed silly. And it was possible to see the law as stupid without identifying as gay at all. I didn't. I realize now that I was gay back then, but I'd hidden that from myself under all sorts of things, and I didn't have a fantasy life at all. Wai: So you hid that for any particular reason, or subconsciously, or you really didn't know why? Bill: I certainly didn't know why, because I didn't know it was going on. I can see now that the costs of being gay in the early 1960s would have been enormous. No one was openly gay and got anywhere. No one had a real job who was openly gay that I knew. I know there were one or two people that you could see in the distance who were rumored to be gay, or might have been gay, or who looked effeminate and probably were gay. And lesbianism? Well, I'd heard of lesbianism, but that seemed even more mysterious. So, no. Wai: So what was happening in the '80s? You had a lot of stuff to do with homosexual law reform. What was happening then that made people go, right, this has got to change? Had attitudes already changed by that stage, and the law was trying to follow, or was it really not happening and everybody just got sick of it? Bill: I think that, as I said, in 1967 already a lot of liberal university students and lecturers thought that the law was stupid. There was a big population of people by then who already saw the law as silly, but it was a minority all the same. That minority probably grew right through the '70s. And also, the various liberation movements – women's liberation, various black-power movements – created a climate in which fighting for your own rights and a place in the world was part of the way things were. So in that framework, particularly after Stonewall which was in '69, there was the development of a gay liberation movement, which had its reflections in New Zealand and a lot of important pioneers that were working there. And so you had this generational thing. The previous generation had been a response to the Wolfenden Report, which in New Zealand was expressed through the Homosexual Law Reform Society and the more liberal kinds of things. And they were probably the people who organized the meeting that we were talking about on the campus where this policeman was talking. So you see, you get these layers, and in each generation it's done in a slightly different way. In the early '80s you had those two previous layers of people, and then you also had an apparent chance, it looked as if the politics could go through in Parliament, and at that point quite a lot of people got involved with big, big meetings. And there were one or two politicians who said, yup, we'll go for this, and so Fran Wilde eventually introduced a bill. Wai: How did middle New Zealand respond? You talked about the building group of minorities that thought this was a stupid law. What was the response of middle New Zealand, or did you not really have anything to do with it anymore? Bill: It's a good question, and I'm not sure that middle New Zealand at first worried much one way or the other. I think that at first it was mostly people who already had fairly well-developed, liberal, intellectual ideas, and gay and lesbian people, and perhaps feminists, who were for law reform; and religious nutters on the other side who were opposed. And most people didn't give a damn. And that was what happened during the time that the law reform was being debated in Parliament, where middle New Zealand just couldn't avoid the question. You had things in the paper every day and things on television all the time and demonstrations and petitions and stalls on street corners and a lot of attention given, so that every news bulletin, practically, had something about this homosexual law reform. And they started to have to make up their mind, and right from the start I think most of them felt, well, why not? It's nothing to do with me. But that position sort of solidified and became stronger, and a lot of people became more aware of the issues. A lot of lesbian and gay people came out during that period, and that meant that people who thought they'd never met anyone who was lesbian or gay realized that, actually, their brother was gay, or someone at work or someone they drank with or whatever. And so the amount of knowledge about and of lesbian and gay people just exploded in that period. Wai: And you'd come out by this stage, or half, or a little bit? Bill: Yeah. I was a slow developer. I came out to myself in my late 20s, and I really didn't... I don't know; I'd started to get involved in gay communities in Wellington. I'd been overseas and came back to Wellington in 1980, got involved a bit, and then we were starting to have to do things public. I had a bookshop. I was selling gay books, among other things, and my bookshop was a bit of a community center. Wai: What was your bookshop called? Bill: Capital Books. The bill was about to be introduced, and the Cardinal, Cardinal Williams, made a statement saying how terrible this bill was, and the television people said, you know, you've got to put someone up to oppose him. And in the circle of people who were organizing, everyone either had a job they were worried about or felt very young and inexperienced. I was just a little bit older, so people said, you better front this, Bill. So I found myself debating the Cardinal on television, and I think that's the way all my family and friends learnt that I was gay, was on television. Wai: On national TV you came out. Bill: On national television. Yes. Wai: That's fantastic! Were there lots of different groups working on law reform? You were saying you were working with the lesbians or feminists or people for law reform. What was that like? Bill: Well, in Wellington, where I was based, we were lucky because the newspaper was more open to publishing stuff than anywhere else, so we got a bigger swing of opinion than anywhere else. Wai: [Than] Anywhere else in the country. Bill: Yeah. We got a bigger swing of opinion in Wellington than anywhere else, and that was for a whole lot of reasons, one of which was we did more on the streets. We involved more people. We had a definite policy of engaging and involving gay people and lesbian people in their own interests. And so there was a bigger sense of movement here. But the thing is that there was this huge variety involved. There were the party boys who wanted law reform, but really wanted to have fun on Saturday night. There were the old timers who'd been slogging away at homosexual law reform for years, and would have accepted the slightest change. There were radicals who wanted to abolish all sexual division and didn't see it even as a political thing, but a social thing. There were the feminists. There were a variety of different currents within the lesbian movement. There were nasty, misogynist old men. Everyone sort of wanted this common goal, but holding them together... Some of them thought there should be nothing happen in the street because we'd look bad, and that we should be utterly polite everywhere, and when our opponents said nasty, homophobic things at the public meetings we should just accept that, whereas other people wanted to do more than throw rotten tomatoes at them. And everyone thought that everyone else was destroying the possibilities of change. And I had the position that we actually needed everyone. We particularly needed the feminists because the core support in the Labour Party was the Labour Party women, and if we didn't have the support of the feminists we wouldn't get the support of the Labour Party women. And the lesbians were really, really, really important, therefore, and some of the guys thought that the lesbians were completely irrelevant to it, and they were more trouble than they were worth, and they demanded too much attention, and so on. And sometimes I thought they demanded too much attention, too, but you had to accept that. And then we needed the misogynist old men because they had lots of money, and we had to be nice to them because we had to get money out of them. We didn't have any money at all. The opposition had considerable funds from American fundamentalists and things like that, and we didn't have a penny. The Auckland gay guys had a bit more than us, but we needed some in Wellington, too, and we had to be nice to these guys, and to keep diplomatic relations with some of them. So in a way, that was my main role, was being sort of a diplomat – sort of keeping everyone happy with one another. Wai: And it all happened, luckily. So what are the big changes that you've seen within...? I don't know if you think that there's a queer community or communities. What have been the kinds of shifts that have happened since law reform? Did people kind of think: Oh, thank goodness! We don't have to work together anymore. See you later! [laughing] Bill: Well, it might be little bit like that. It's interesting because before law reform, while we were still illegal, there were two major clubs, two or three bars, a couple of sex-on-site venues, a whole lot more things than now. Wai: So, a whole lot more than now. Bill: Now there's no clubs. There's one bar and one sort of nightclub type place in Wellington, and I think that's representative of right around the country. Wai: Do you notice any differences between Wellington and Auckland? You were saying that Wellington did a lot of street stuff. Bill: Yeah. Wellington is a funny town because, I don't know, it might have to do with the whole design of the city being held in by the hills and things like that, but it's a very concentrated city, and it means that we get together as a community, even if it's only to fight, much more easily than in Auckland where people are sort of spread out all over. Wai: [laughing] Too far away to fight; stuck in traffic. Bill: Yeah. I think there's a lot more activists in Auckland, but somehow they never get to critical mass because they never manage to get together. And I think that's the way it was then. I'm exaggerating. They did some huge stuff in Auckland, but it was led by a group which was less open. In our case we had a gay taskforce. Anyone could go along to those meetings, and it was there that decisions were made, once a week. And usually it was a small group. People trusted that small group to make decisions, but occasionally there was something really important like a big argument about whether we'd have a demonstration or we should be respectable, and everyone would come together and argue that out. It was a way of involving people, and it was a way which required people to make compromises sometimes, whereas in Auckland there was nothing quite equivalent. There was a leadership, but it had a definite policy and it managed to keep control of things. And there were some messages there from the gay taskforce in Auckland that we wouldn't have wanted to endorse. For example, there was an upsurge of anti-gay violence. The Wellington response was: we're going to have lessons in self-defense, and we're going to get TV cameras along to show everyone that we are learning how to look after ourselves. In Auckland, the advice was: don't go anywhere without company, and be careful. So it was a slightly different kind of way of doing things. Wai: So what would you say to people now who are kind of saying, well, you know, you've had law reform, you have civil unions, pretty much there's no homophobia, everybody's sweet as, and things are much better now. What degrees of truth do you think that has? Bill: Well certainly, you know, there are many opportunities for gay people to be openly gay and to lead lives which are OK in terms of the rest of the population. Our people can go out and have a good career in many, many areas, and be openly gay. You can be a gay doctor or a gay bureaucrat or a gay businessman, without any problems at work, or without many problems at work. But try being a gay high-school student in New Plymouth, and that's not quite so easy. Or actually, just try to be an ordinary member of a straight family and be gay and realize you're gay at the age of 25, and negotiate your way through explaining to everyone that things are a little bit different than they thought. Not easy. So there are still quite serious issues: youngsters who can be very depressed, suicidality, really important things that...[interrupted] Wai: Just among young queer people or across ages? Bill: Across ages. There's no doubt that young people are especially at risk, but anyone who is a bit marginalized can be at risk of suicide, and the fact is that older people are also marginalized on account of their sexuality, it's just not as pervasive and as strong as it was. But if someone's got one or two other things going on in their life, or comes from a religious family background – if you get down to specifics it can be quite difficult for many, many people. Wai: So you're still interested in social change. What are some of the other things that you do? I know that you have various hats that you wear. Bill: Well, yesterday I spent at a governance workshop. I'm on the board. I'm the chairman of the board of something called the Drugs and Health Development Project, which runs the needle exchanges in the lower half of the North Island, for intravenous drug users. It's something that I got involved in rather by mistake, as happens in life. There was some television talk show about AIDS, early on, and people rang in with their questions, and we dealt with the necessity for homosexual law reform – this was in 1984 or '85, I don't know, '84 it would have been – and we talked about that on this television show and the panel had come to agreement that, yes, we needed law reform in order to deal with AIDS, which was part of my objective for being there. But then someone rang in with a question of how you're going to deal with AIDS and needle users, and I made the obvious point that the same principles applied, and that you weren't going to be able to deal with the possibility or the likelihood of the transmission of HIV through needles without changing the law, liberalizing it, making needles easily available, and preferably ending the illegal status of drugs. Well, of course, this was not popularly received by the Minister of Health, who was also on the panel. I just said, well, you've got to decide, don't you, whether you want to deal with this phenomenon of HIV/AIDS or not, and if you're going to deal with it you're going to have to do something like that. And as it happened there were some bureaucrats in the Ministry who saw the point and very quickly a needle exchange scheme was put into place. But just that intervention led needle users in Wellington to think that I might be a useful person sometimes, and so I have found myself having a continuing role here, which is fascinating. It's really a world I wouldn't have come across, perhaps, in quite the same way, anyway, without this. And it's very satisfying in that I think that we've been hugely successful, more successful than anywhere in the world, in keeping HIV out of the needle using population. And that's because not only do we give away clean needles, but we have users on the desks giving them away, giving advice. The users obviously have some moral authority with other users and they can talk about all the other things which you can do to keep yourself healthy. Just washing your hands actually, is quite important if you're into needle use, and filters for different things are important, so there's all sorts of self-care which is necessary. And our needle users are probably some of the healthiest needle users in the world, and that saves money. People mightn't care about the welfare and safety of needle users – I do, but people mightn't – but they do care about money and health dollars, and we've saved a shitload of them, frankly. Wai: So where would you like diverse queer communities in Wellington and also in New Zealand to head, or some of the places that you'd like things to progress towards? Bill: That's a good question, and I don't think I know the answer because perhaps we can't lay down a prescription of where we're going to head. What we need is the abolition of the barriers which prevent us heading where we need to go depending on what we want. And some of those barriers have come down, but...[interrupted] Wai: What are the ones you see are still around? Bill: Well, it's still quite difficult to have decent relationships with another generation. It's difficult for gay and lesbian people to bring up kids, for example. It can be done, and lots of my friends are doing it, and it's becoming easier, but we don't have a good framework for it. It's not possible for a gay or lesbian couple to adopt, as a couple. That's ridiculous. That will change, surely, very quickly, but I'm not sure how much difference that in itself will make. It's an important symbolic thing. But I think in general it's difficult for younger gay people and older gay people to connect, and I think that's important because we don't yet know how to aim our lives very well because we haven't got very good role models. You know, we learn how to be old from the people around us that we know who are old, and if we don't know people who are old of our own life type, then we're missing some important connections and lessons and models. So I'd like to see better connections between generations, but on the whole, generations perhaps aren't very interested in other generations. You've got to take the realities into account. Wai: Cool. Thank you very much, Bill Logan, respectable Bill Logan, for yarning with us and sharing with us. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 185
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ATL REF: OHDL-003875
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089169
TITLE: Mary OHagan
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VOICES: Mary O'Hagan
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1960s; Mary O'Hagan; Rainbow Touchstones; health; lesbian; mental health; profile; transcript online
DATE: 15 October 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Mary O'Hagan talks about growing up and mental health issues.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: March 2011
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Mary O'Hagan: I grew up as a little girl in the 1960s, and in those days there was a lot of pressure on little girls to play with tea sets and dolls and wear dresses and things like that, and I found that I wasn't really oriented towards those things. In fact, I was much more interested in wearing shorts and playing with guns - I loved guns! - and running around outdoors and doing very active things. So that set up a real tension in my childhood, and I suppose that one of the best encapsulations of that tension is a photograph I have of me in my very lacy first-communion dress with my veil on, with me holding a homemade rifle over my shoulder. My parents obviously found that very funny and decided to take a photo. So yes, I had this tension as a child, and then I thought maybe if you're a tomboy when you're a girl does that mean you're a lesbian when you grow up? And this used to worry me a bit. And I remember my mother gave me a sex education book when I was about 13, and in it - and this was based on Freudian notions - it said that as a child and an adolescent you can have homosexual feelings and that's okay, but if you have them when you're grown up that you're really pretty stuffed - you know, that's pathological. So, I was brought up kind of with this belief, although my parents knew some gay people and lesbians. But I suppose I had the kind of belief that if you grew up a lesbian you were going to have a pretty unhappy life and there was something a little bit sick about your head. Gareth: When was the first time you heard about lesbianism? Mary: Oh, I can't remember when I first heard about it, but I do remember these women coming to Sunday lunch when I was about 12. They were colleagues of my father's, and my parents never called them lesbians but one of them was incredibly butch and very funny and quite crude and everything, and the other one was a pretty sort of little thing, and it didn't dawn on me until later that they were lesbians. I remember my parents not joking about them, but obviously they had an attitude about them, even before I realized that they were lesbians, that they were actually a bit different. Yeah. So they're the first lesbians I think I ever met. I can't remember the first gay man I ever met. It probably didn't have such an impression on me. Gareth: So, reading that book from your mother, was that the first time you'd actually seen something in print about what you were feeling? Mary: I guess it was, and of course it wasn't very validating. And of course, during my teenage years I went out with boys, and I don't think it really came to the crunch until I got a bit older, probably about 17 or 18, although from an intellectual point of view I was worried about it. But I was quite happy to go out with boys. Gareth: Can you recall in the '60s what the wider community felt about homosexuality? Mary: Oh, it was pretty grim, I think. And in a way, if I look at the way I felt about it, and that would have been a reflection of the community, it wasn't very positive. I remember people at school going on about lezzies and she's a lezzy and all that sort of thing when I was 11 or 12. I think they still do that today, but I don't think they do it so much. They've got a very interesting twist on the word " gay" today for instance. Gareth: What were some of the words that were used back then as derogatory terms? Mary: Oh, there was a lot of 'lezzy.' I think 'queer' was derogatory; 'poofter.' A lot of these are reclaimed words now. Gareth: So, it all started coming to a head when you were around 17 or 18? Mary: Yeah, and I got very worried about my sexual orientation. The thing that worried me most about it was that I thought if I was a lesbian I wouldn't be able to have children. That was the big thing, more than the stigma of it, I think at that stage. And I knew, at a distance, a lesbian couple when I was about 18 and they seemed quite nice people. So, I think gradually as I got a little bit older during those years from the late teens to my early to mid 20s, I gradually got to meet people who were lesbians and who were gay, and they were just like what you'd expect any group of people to be; there were some that you really liked and some that you didn't like so much. But also, at that same time, there was a huge amount of political activity going on, especially in universities, I think. This was kind of in the late '70s, early '80s, and it was the days of The Women's Room and the lesbian separatist split with the other lesbians and with the feminists, and so there was a lot of activity going on. So, I think in a way there was a lot of visibility about it and I gradually got more comfortable with the idea and more comfortable with lesbians. Yeah. And I think that helped me quite a lot. And at the same time, when you think about all the political activity that was going on and the Homosexual Law Reform, of course, I think the whole social attitudes... there was maybe a bit of a tipping point around that era when attitudes changed very fast over a very short time in the late '70s, early '80s. Gareth: Can you recall how your family reacted to those quite rapid changes? Mary: Well, I don't think it mattered to them until I came out to them. My family were quite liberal and they were very tolerant people and quite forward-thinking, my parents, so these weren't big issues for them. I mean, when I came out to my mother she told me I was going through a phase, which was her way of dealing with it, but actually my parents were quite okay about it. I'm sure that my father, in particular, would probably have preferred me to be heterosexual, but there was no change in the relationship because of it. Gareth: Did you grow up in a large town or a city? Mary: I initially grew up in a small town called Winton, in Southland, and it only had a couple thousand people in it. And when I was 11 we went to the large city of Invercargill, which had about 50,000 in those days. But of course, Southland is a conservative part of the world, but I guess I never joined in with the conservatism of Southlanders and I don't think my family did, really, either. Gareth: Where do you think that liberalism came from within your family? Mary: Probably a combination of education, eccentricity and imagination [laughs]. I think it was probably a combination of those three things, because you can be educated.... Education gives you a larger view on the world, but you can still be very educated and very conservative, so I think there was a bit of eccentricity there on my mother's side of the family anyway. Gareth: So, when did your mental health issues start occurring? Mary: When I was 18; badly when I was 18. I got a bit down at high school, but really it became a crisis point at 18. Gareth: Was that tied in any way with feelings about your sexual orientation? Mary: Well, I think in a way, as it always is, it was very much tied in with the struggles I was having at the time. And so commonly with young people it's things like: who am I and what's my place in the world? And of course, quite a major chunk of that at that age is your sexual orientation; so yeah, I think it was all part of the mix. Gareth: Can you tell me a wee bit about your mental health issues? Mary: Well, I had probably about eight or nine years of experiencing very severe mood swings where I would get so depressed that I was sort of almost catatonic - I couldn't move and I couldn't speak and I could barely get up. I could still go to the toilet and do things like that, but I really couldn't do much else. And then I'd get to the other extreme where I was up all the time partying, moving around, constantly on the move, I couldn't sit down, very elated. And that would, after a while, turn into paranoia and I'd get psychotic. I got into kind of another reality with these conditions when they got severe, as well. Now, sometimes I'd go for months and I'd be fine, and then it would all sort of erupt again, but it really disrupted my life over about a nine-year period. Gareth: So, when they first started happening, did you know what was happening? Mary: No! No. Well, did I know what was happening? Yes and no. I mean, you obviously know something's terribly wrong when you start getting all terribly something different, when you start getting high or depressed. And of course there's a big controversy about what you name it. I had no idea that I had a condition that the so-called experts would call depression or manic depression or bipolar. I might have had other names for it, but of course the names that are given to these things are basically their kind of judgments about them. I just preferred to call them mood swings, but in fact that's not even a particularly accurate name because they were a whole body kind of experience because it wasn't just moods, it was about your cognitive functioning, about your physical functioning, not just about your emotions. A lot of it was about being sped up or slowed down in terms of cognitive functioning and physical functioning, too. And it was an intensely spiritual experience, as well. Any experience you go through that involves a huge shift in the way you are in the world is going to be quite a profound experience for you. I suppose for people who haven't been through these major sort of huge mood swings or psychoses or whatever, a drug experience might do the same thing, but you're kind of transported into this other reality and you see the world from a different perspective, and that's hugely challenging and a bit difficult to accommodate or incorporate into the whole story of your life. But it's quite profound. Being in the depths of despair or at the height of elation, they're quite profound human experiences. They both tap into the whole question of our existence. I mean, despair is really about: this existence isn't worth it. So, they're existential crises in a way, and I probably prefer to use that language than spiritual language. But of course, the people who are on the other side of the treating table were not interested in the content of the experience, they just wanted to know that you were having it and give you some pills, and then they wanted to know that you weren't having it any more. So they kind of had: This experience is on the rubbish heap. We've got to eliminate it and get rid of it. It was sort of like a surgical approach to it rather than an integrative approach, and I found that very limiting and very annoying. And it's something that still goes on, of course. Gareth: So, can we take you back to the late '70s and just perhaps talk about what your experience of mental health services in New Zealand were like, and also from the perspective of your sexuality, as well. Mary: Well, the late '70s and early '80s was what I call a " pills and pillow service," although I probably had a bit more access to psychotherapy then than people would now in the public system. But really, basically it was pills and pillows, so there were no sorts of community services. You always went up to the hospital for your appointment; there was no what they used to call outpatient facilities, so that was a major difference. And of course, since then the big hospitals have closed down and most of the services are based in community settings, and not so many people are put into hospital. But the other thing was, of course, it was in 1973 that the American Psychiatric Association ditched its diagnosis of homosexuality in its Diagnostic Manual. And the Diagnostic Manual is a total farce. What happened was that they got rid of this diagnosis by vote, and of course they bring diagnoses in a lot and take them out sort of by vote and it's a very political process and there's nothing terribly scientific about it at all. And I know that before that time, in New Zealand, in the hospitals they had aversion therapy for gay people. They'd show them homoerotic images and then sort of give them a bit of a flick or something to hurt them, or something like that. Gareth: When you say " flick," what...? Mary: Well, I think they experienced some pain of some sort. I don't think it was absolutely a drastic, tortuous pain, but the whole idea of aversion therapy is that you associate unpleasantness with the thing that you desire that you don't want to desire or other people don't want you to desire. So there was a bit of that going on in mental hospitals. The West has always had a pretty dim view about homosexuality, but I think Freud sort of elaborated on this and had this view that homosexual tendencies, while they're kind of normal in childhood, which was quite a radical view and I don't think it's even that true, but people who grew up and remained homosexual, I think his view was that they had some sort of psychopathology. Anyway, I guess in a way I knew instinctively that if I talked about my feelings about being a lesbian to mental health professionals that would give them another reason to pathologize me. And in a way, because of the way they practiced, I was reasonably defensive with them. Because they had a totally deficits view of what was going on, you didn't want to show them too much of yourself because you didn't want them to add to your deficits all the time. And I knew that there were these lingering beliefs about homosexuality, so that was the last thing I would've talked to them about. Gareth: Having the sexuality in the back of your mind, did that ever prevent you from going and seeking help? Mary: No, because I just decided I wouldn't talk to them about that stuff, so it was quite easy just to.... No one ever asked me, actually, which is quite an interesting thing. I don't think anyone ever asked me about that, which is, in a way, quite significant because it probably shows that those professionals weren't that at ease with it themselves. Gareth: So, back in the late '70s what were the treatment options available to you? Mary: Well actually, there has been roughly the same menu of drug treatments for 50 years. I mean, they change their spots a bit, but they're roughly the same: the anti-anxiety drugs, the antidepressant drugs, the mood stabilizers, and the anti-psychotics are the main groups of drugs and they're not much better now than they were back then. Some of the new ones have less side effects, some have worse side effects. So, there were the drugs, and they tried me on just about everything. And then they had a little bit more psychotherapy going on in those days. Since the '80s, biological psychiatry has really had a resurgence in mental-health services, but the therapy was just terrible. I mean, I went to a couple of group therapy things and, in fact, in some ways it was worse than being told you had an imbalance in your brain chemistry, being told that you were psychologically inadequate. Well, I'd rather have an imbalance, I think, than being told that I was an inadequate person. And of course, that was very much a deficits-based psychotherapy we had. It was all about what was wrong with us and it was terrible, it was shocking, it was awful, and I just didn't participate much, really. I dropped out. I was a huge psychotherapy dropout. Gareth: So, were these treatments voluntary or did you have to do it compulsorily? Mary: Well, I was threatened with compulsory treatment on a few occasions, and I seemed to have the wherewithal to comply with things, so no, not that I know of. I don't think I was ever under an order, which I feel quite grateful for because I've got a very dim view about the way compulsory treatment is used. So, they were kind of voluntary, but there's the subtle coercion that goes on as well in mental-health services, but I think I was a strong enough person to not do something if I didn't want to. Yeah. But when they threatened me with that I was pretty far gone. I was pretty out of it when they threatened me with that. I knew that my number was up. I knew I needed some sort of shelter of some sort, so that wasn't a big problem. Although, today if the same thing happened to me and they tried to put me on anti-psychotics, I'd be pretty upset about it. Gareth: How did your family respond? Mary: To my mental health problems? Well, they were very worried because I had quite a major suicide attempt when I was 21. My parents were pretty over-anxious and it was probably more helpful for me not to see too much of them during that time, although I'd always had a good relationship with them and I did after it was all ended. It was a bit tricky during those times. I had a brother who was very supportive and I had some very supportive friends, as well, which was hugely important. Gareth: So, did the drugs work in the end? Mary: Well, only one of them seemed to do anything, and that was an antidepressant. I've really come to the view that the drugs aren't a long-term solution. But it seems to me that I did start taking an antidepressant at one stage, and they were reluctant to put me on them because of my manias, that did seem to sort of stabilize things, so that was quite useful. But it's very hard to know if there weren't other things going on at the same time that were also having an impact. Gareth: Did you have any experience of mental health institutions? Mary: Oh yeah. Yeah, I was in hospital a lot. I was mainly in a ward that was attached to a general hospital, but I was also in Sunnyside, and Sunnyside was a particularly horrible place. They're not nice places and the really depressing thing is that the kind of acute ward setting has gotten worse over the last 20 years, not better. But they're not very therapeutic places for people to be who are distressed. I could have benefitted much more from going to a respite house or some other more homely place where things were more ordinary. Gareth: What were things that you recall weren't so good? Mary: I think in a place like Sunnyside, in particular, the level of coercion that was going on, the seclusion, we didn't even have a place to sit, the nurses wouldn't talk to you, everyone was drugged out of their heads. I remember the first time I went in there and there were just people lined up on the corridors, just sitting in the corridors up against the wall kind of half asleep, and the nurses all sort of tucked away in the nurses' station not really wanting to respond to anyone's request for help. And that's an incredibly common feature all over the world in these places, is that the nurses don't seem to talk to the patients much. Gareth: So was it more about containment? Mary: Well, yeah. I think definitely today it's containment. And of course, the other thing about these places is that you're feeling very distressed yourself and there's all these other distressed people around you who might be behaving in ways that you're not able to cope with, so that's another issue. Gareth: Can you recall any lesbians in the institutions, or talk about sexuality? Mary: Yeah. Yeah, I had a good friend who was a lesbian and she's one of the people that probably helped make me feel more comfortable with it. She was quite comfortable with it; she was very open about it. Actually, she ended up getting married. I ran into her a few years ago and she was married, and I thought, God! So, over the years I've talked to people who were in those old institutions and who were lesbians and who were not treated very well. And in fact, there's quite a lot of research that's come out, from Britain in particular, about the experience of gay and lesbian people inside mental health services: a lot of fear of being judged. Now, this is going back to the '90s so it would be interesting to know if it's different now, but a lot of fear of being judged. But when people do disclose, not a high percentage of people were very happy with the response they got. I think there's probably still quite a lot that could be done in services, for gay and lesbian people, because people tend to go into mental health services at a young age, and that's an age when, obviously, people are forming their sexual identity. And in this country there's been very little attention paid to gay and lesbian issues in mental health. Gareth: So, did you ever talk about it when you were in the hospital? Mary: I can't remember if I had conversations with her about it, but I do remember feeling very at ease with her, and she was one of the people that helped me feel much more comfortable about it. Gareth : I asked earlier on about whether your mental health issues were related to sexuality. Do you think that's a common theme that runs through gay and lesbian, transgender people? Mary: Oh yes. Well, the statistics suggest that if you're gay or lesbian you do have a higher chance of developing mental health problems and substance abuse problems. It's particularly high for people who identify as bisexual, apparently, and I think transgender people have a really difficult time with mental health issues. And this is one reason I think why there probably needs to be a bit more attention put on this group of people by mental health services. Gareth: Why do you think there is a higher rate of mental health issues in the queer community? Is it because of internal factors or is it because of external things that are happening to people? Mary: People generally, as a species, crave social acceptance and belonging and being visible and being appreciated and liked and all those things, and I think if we form an identity that threatens those things, if we have an identity that threatens those things, that can prey on our mental health. I think it's probably as simple as that. And it also can lead us into more substance abuse and other kinds of coping behaviors that we tend to use when things are stressful or we don't feel part of it, or whatever. There's nothing inherent about being lesbian or gay that would create mental health problems, no, so I think it's about how or where people see themselves in relation to society. Gareth: One of the labels you use to identify yourself is " mad," and I'm just wondering if you could talk to me about owning labels and whether mad is just the only label that you own or if there are others.[laughter] Mary: No, no, no. Mad is not the only label. I suppose it's my work-life label, yeah. [laughs] Well, I mean I'm queer, I suppose, too, so mad and queer. How else would I label myself? Mad and queer are reclaimed words, and they're kind of used with the same motivation. Gareth: Can you talk to me about reclaiming those words? Mary: Yeah, I think it's interesting that a lot of movements have done this. Using words that have been used in a disparaging way against us, with a new sort of positive, shiny identity is a really interesting twist on things, and I quite enjoy it. Not everyone does. There are lots of people I know who have been through the system who hate the word mad, and get a bit upset when I start using it, but I suppose it shows a kind of sense of humor or irony that I quite enjoy, too, and a boldness about who you are and what you stand for. Gareth: In the mid '80s New Zealand was going through the Homosexual Law Reform. What impact did that have on you? Mary: Well, it had an indirect impact. I remember going to meetings about it and getting sort of interested in it and everything. It was just before I came out, actually. Because it was just to do with men and sodomy, it didn't really... [laughs] Although it was significant, it wasn't.... The big joke was that Queen Victoria didn't approve a law against lesbians because she didn't believe they existed. But I think it was part of a whole accelerated change of attitudes that was going on at that time towards people who were lesbian or gay, and I think that the fact that the government was able to pass this legislation at that time was a reflection of the change, the very quick change that was happening in people's attitudes. So I think I was caught up in that change in my attitude towards myself. Gareth: Were you still in hospital at that time? Mary: No. The last time I was in hospital was 1984, though I very clearly remember going to meetings in 1985 about the Homosexual Law Reform. It was quite a big thing. Gareth: So, what helped with the wellness? Mary: Well, as I said, I was put on a drug that I thought was quite helpful. And then at the beginning of 1985 my brother was drowned, and I think it was almost like a circuit breaker. I don't know quite how else to explain it, but it kind of jolted me into another way of being, I think, and particularly in terms of a lot of the self pity I carried about how my life had gone thus far. I realized, of course, that my brother, whose life had gone a lot more smoothly than mine, had had it cut very short at the age of 28, and that I was now the lucky one, I guess. And that sort of jolted me into kind of a new attitude to life, and I think that really helped me a lot, as well. It's quite paradoxical because I was very grief stricken, but I found the experience of grief to be very different from the type of depression that I had experienced previously. I think these things are always a bit of a mystery, actually. I don't know if you can ever really understand how healing happens, but they seem to be two sort of conspicuous reasons. Gareth: Looking back to your experiences with the mental health services in the late '70s and '80s, how do you think they compare nowadays to how queer people, gays and lesbians, transgender, are treated by mental health services? Mary: My assumption is, just from what I know and what I've heard, that people have a greater chance of being well treated if you come out in mental health services now than you would have 30 or 40 years ago. That doesn't mean to say that you always will be, but I think your chances are better. One of the really interesting things about all of this is the kind of anticipated discrimination, which can actually be worse because it's a sign of your own internalized stuff, and it can actually be worse than the reception that you actually get when you do come out. And I think there's probably a high degree of anticipated discrimination going on with young people who are struggling with their sexuality and then they hit a kind of mental health service that might be controlling and whatever. But yeah, I think on the whole your chances of getting a good deal and a good reaction are better. Gareth: Just thinking of young people, there's been quite a bit of talk in the media recently about bullying in schools, and particularly queer kids coming through school. Do you have any thoughts about bullying in schools? Mary: Well, I think bullying at any age is pretty bad. My kids are going through school. Now, they go to very liberal, inner-city schools and being queer just isn't an issue for them. It's quite interesting. And I know other teenagers for whom [it's like] yeah? So? It's not even an issue. Coming from central Wellington, among these kids I don't see any bullying that's around whether they're sort of a bit camp or butch or whatever, and I think they have a great sort of accommodation for diversity, these kids; much more than we did. But then I don't know what it's like if you go to school in Pahiatua or something like that; it might be quite different, and some of these very conservative schools. Yeah, I think there is some bullying going on still, isn't there? But my sample is very restricted. Gareth: One of the things that interested me was being in an institution. Did you find your sense of hope diminished? Mary: Oh yeah. Oh, it was terrible! The longest stint I had was three months, so usually I was in for weeks, sometimes just for days, and I think maybe it wasn't so much the institution, although that was pretty awful, but it was the outlook they gave you. I was told at the age of 21 that I had a serious mental health problem, that I would have episodes of mood swings for the rest of my life, that I'd really have to lower my horizons for my career, and also that actually I should think twice about having children. So, for a young person to be told that you probably wouldn't have access to the two things that most or a lot of young people want, and that's ways of contributing to the world through parenting and work, I mean, there's no better way to stuff up someone's sense of hope and purpose in life, and that kind of derailed me for a little while. But then after a while I seemed to be struggling so long with these issues that I started to think, well maybe they're right about this stuff and maybe I'll never be able to work and maybe even if I want to have children I won't be able to because I'm single, and everything like that. So yeah, they do a great job at stripping people's hope away. It's absolutely extraordinary. And again, I think this stuff still goes on a bit today. But this is a very common story; people say this again and again that they were given these really pessimistic prognoses. And of course, the belief was that once you had these conditions they'd affect you for the rest of your life, and the evidence suggests that actually there's no real pattern. You can't predict any pattern to these things. Everyone's got their own pattern and if you put the right elements in place in your life then you've got a pretty good chance at having a good life. Gareth: So, can you talk a wee bit about how all these strands have come together in the work that you do now? Mary: Well, the work I do is grounded in that kind of lived experience, but it's more than that. It's grounded on the principles and the beliefs of the movement of people with lived experience, and I guess it's very much like other movements that say: look, we've been oppressed and we want our self-determination, we want to be able to live the lives that we want, and not to be pushed around by society and attitudes and by the control system that is the mental health system. So there's a myriad of ways of expressing those beliefs, I guess, but really the foundation of my work is the belief that people who have diagnoses of mental health problems are full human beings and have the right to self-determination. And that doesn't go down too well with some people [laughs], because the mental health system is really, at its core, a system that controls and contains people. I mean, say a lot of the funding was stripped away - all the good services would go and all the crappy social-control services would remain because they're the core of it, really. Gareth: But you must have seen a change over the last 10 or 15 years in terms of how mental health is dealt with in the wider society. Mary: Yeah, I think there's been quite a big shift in social attitudes towards mental health problems, particularly in what they call the kind of high-prevalence problems like depression and anxiety. Once you get down to the label of schizophrenia it's not so marked. But one of the really good things is that people are starting to talk more about the positive side of things, about well-being and so on. And I think, obviously, people with major mental health problems can benefit as much from that positive psychology or that well-being stuff as anyone else, in fact maybe more, so I think that's been good. When I think about when I first started being an advocate in the late '80s, there were some pretty awful community attitudes around then that I don't see quite so much now. Gareth: How did they express themselves? Mary: Well, it was usually about houses of mad people going and living next door, and that still goes on. There are still communities that protest about this, but it was pretty vitriolic back in the '80s. And of course, the so-called community was worried about it because the government was announcing that the hospitals were closing, so there was a backlash against that. And now I think it's just accepted that people aren't going to be locked up forever and that they do live in communities and that it's okay, really, although you can never be too complacent about the return to institutionalization. I think there's always a vague threat that it could happen, and that's because I think there's still a level of discrimination out there, but I think it's gotten a lot better. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 182
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/neon_rainbow.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003840
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089134
TITLE: Neon Rainbow
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Hamish Allardice
INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins
TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Dorian Society; Hamish Allardice; Wellington; alcohol and drug abuse; depression; gay; health; homosexual law reform; mental health; programme; transcript online
DATE: 20 March 1999
YEAR: 1999
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this documentary a group of men reflect on drug and alcohol use in the gay community.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 1999
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Voice 1: I was in immense, immense amounts of pain when I was at high school, just huge amounts. I was so confused and so terrified. I mean, I couldn't walk down a corridor without everyone yelling gobbler and Mary and poofter and everything, and when I found drugs they took the edge off everything and they just made everything so much more bearable. And I had a sense that I could handle anything in the corridors and anything in the classroom for a long time until I could get stoned again. And when I could get stoned again then it took it all away and it made it somehow seem bearable because I could get away from it all. So I really do celebrate the kid, Hamish, when I was 15, 16, 17, when I started smoking dope and drinking alcohol, because I think it saved my life, because the other alternative, which of course you see and I've heard of so much for young gay men, is we just kill ourselves. And I'm glad I didn't kill myself. I have a zest for life and a passion for life, still today, which seems to have held through everything, that I really wanted to survive. I have a quiet determination that will fight, and I found it better to fight and to become an angry young man. I was really angry, and I could be bitchy and I could verbally dress anyone down and cut anyone down. I think it's a where a lot of gay humor comes from, and it certainly was where mine was based. It was based on defending myself from these kids in the hall, in the corridors when I was walking down the corridors at school. I never knew what was... I mean, I always knew. I never knew what was going to come at me, but I kind of always knew that whenever I had to walk down a corridor, I would always know that I was going to get hassled. And apparently there were other gay kids at the school, but because I was so isolated because I was out, in a sense, none of the gay kids wanted to know me because they didn't want to get tarred with the same brush. And I certainly didn't really want to know any of the pooftie kids anyway because I had to be so staunch, so I was so isolated to fit, so really alone, not having learnt the skills to be able to talk to mum and dad about stuff, or anyone else. And I just, yeah, got stoned. It was so much easier. Voice 2: The thing is, I think that our alcohol and drug use very much does mirror what goes on in society, and is very responsive to environmental pressures, so that before Homosexual Law Reform the pressures on the individual encouraged alcohol and drug use. The social ghettoization encouraged alcohol and drug use right across our community. It's what you did. You met your friends at the pub and drank, there was nowhere else to go; you didn't go with your friends to cafes, there weren't many then, but to the other options. If you wanted to be yourself, you were in a drinking situation. After Homosexual Law Reform that slowly whittled away, and so therefore some of the pressures to drink and drug use, with a maturing lesbian and gay population, lost some of its power. You see it still with the younger ones. Younger lesbians and gay men are still coping with all the issues of coming out and integration of their identity and behavior, et cetera, and so are still drinking and drug using as much as ever. Voice 1: Well, I moved to Wellington when I was 17, and straightaway I was working in a hotel. I was a fourth cook, salad hand and pot washer, basically, and trying to get somewhere. And I met older men who were taken by my youth and innocence, I guess; I don't know. They liked me and I liked the attention. And they used: they drank and they got stoned, and one guy used to hit up and that was when I found speed. I never used intravenously, but I would have speed in a speedball, crystal methadrine it was. It was really nice. But I got carried out of the house with my eyes rolled back, and apparently I OD'ed, but I don't remember anything about it. And I was living here and there was the Dorian Society. It was the only gay venue of such. It was a Victoria club which was supposedly for older men, I went there too though. At the Dorian Society you could pay $15 on the door and it was an open bar – you could drink as much as you liked, and I followed suit. [laughs] I drank as much as I liked and got laid. You know, that was pretty much what we did. We were just gay men. I didn't have any role models that said that there was any other way to live life. In the environment that I was living in, it wasn't particularly... I didn't see people doing life any other way. Then I met people and tried to formulate relationships based on being off my head, so none of them really came to very much, I guess. So I just worked and lived and worked and lived here, and got more promiscuous and did more dope. And a friend of mine suggested that there wasn't a gay escort agency and that maybe we should do that. So we tried that for awhile, but the cute ones, the nice ones, I'd give it to them for free because I didn't really care. [laughs] And the really, really awful ones, I couldn't do it, surprise, surprise, and I just felt sort of revolted and cheap and tacky. I remember my 21st birthday was a job. I started at the Parkroyal and Oriental Bay, around there, and I was 21 and the bill for dinner and the amount of money I made that night was $510. I can remember thinking: Fuck, I've made it! I thought I'd made it, you know, because I could get that much money in a night. But it was my 21st birthday. That was my 21st, you know? I thought that was pretty sad, as well. Part of me thought it was sad and the other part thought I had made it. And then a few months later I got my 21st present from my parents, and I thought: God, I really didn't mean that much to them, in a sense. It sounds awful to say it, but I kind of didn't really feel like I was that important. I'm the youngest of six kids and mum and dad always used to go and visit everyone, and they never visited me. And I used to think it was because I lived in the city and not many of my family did, but really it was because I was gay and they didn't really want to be witness to my lifestyle, so they didn't come and visit. Things like that that I've only learnt about since I stopped tuning out and stopped getting stoned. Coming clean: well, when I first tried to give it up I gave up everything – cigarettes, coffee, tea, sugar [laughs]. I'm kind of an all or nothing kind of guy, a bit of a perfectionist, and it was a month of absolute nightmare, and I was just mad trying to be in control. And I don't know; the emotional stuff that comes up straightaway is just horrendous. I don't know where it all was, but it just started to come and I found myself just emotionally a wreck, trying to find anyone to help me take the pain away. They say that alcoholics and addicts don't have relationships, we take hostages, and I think that was pretty much apparent when I first tried cleaning up. I'd latch onto anyone to help me, ah... help me... just help me [laughs]. God! And for the first six months of recovery after rehab I just cried all the time at meetings. I'd go to meetings and I'd try and share and I'd just cry and cry. I was so vulnerable; I was just so vulnerable. I didn't know how to cope. I didn't know how to live. People would go for coffee after a meeting, or just trying to be in social situations, and I wouldn't know what to say. Take away all the dope talk and the bitchiness and the old behavior, and I didn't have anything to say anymore. I felt so useless and so less than – so less than other gay men in some ways. And I had to remove myself pretty much from gay culture because as I understood it at that stage – I now know that it's different – it wasn't really anything that wasn't centered or focused around alcohol and drugs, or it certainly hadn't been my experience, and most of my friends were not alcoholics and drug addicts but they were people who were socially involved in alcohol. So, for the first three years I couldn't really go... I mean, I just had to go to recovery meetings and try and learn about myself; learn about the parts of myself that weren't full of self-obsession or self-righteousness. It's really strange. Early recovery is bizarre. You spend most of the time trying to get over yourself, but at the same time trying to work out who you are. It's really lonely being a gay man in recovery, initially. Voice 2: I did some research about a year ago, or two years ago now, on the experiences of lesbians and gay men who went through treatment services in New Zealand, and it was not very good, the outcome of that. It wasn't very optimistic. Most of the services, though claiming a tolerance and believing that they were tolerant, had still not extended to homosexual clients the services that they had offered heterosexual clients. For example, heterosexual clients would be offered the opportunity to bring their husband or wife in, to involve their family. Homosexual clients rarely were invited to bring their partner in. Heterosexual clients could bring friends in. Homosexual clients were often not invited to bring friends in. Heterosexual clients are much more comfortable and at ease in groups when there was any kind of group therapy that went on. Homosexual clients were invited into those groups and were expected to talk about themselves, to expose themselves to a group of people who were not gay, and this was very threatening for many. When it came to looking at what happened after treatment, when they went back into the community, heterosexual clients were more often than gay clients invited to involve employers, or their sexuality somehow was part of the after-care program that was developed and the monitoring that went on. For homosexual clients the fact that they'd be going back into gay-bar milieu or into the kind of, perhaps, gay-centered lifestyle they'd been in before, didn't feature as part of the after-care planning. So there was a discrimination that went on; not a deliberate one, but one out of ignorance. And so, even here in the '90s in a country which is more tolerant than many to its gay and lesbian folks, New Zealand, especially in the liberal humanities, we could still find that gay men and lesbians would not receive the same quality of treatment opportunity as would heterosexuals. Voice 1: I think also, being clean and choosing to live clean means that it's sometimes difficult to have relationships with people. I mean, my maintenance is that I still go to meetings. I still go to recovery meetings 10 years down the track. There are plenty of people who I've seen in rehab or met through recovery who don't do meetings anymore, and either they drink or get stoned again or they get killed, they die, or they choose other ways of living. And trying to establish a relationship with the limitations that I have placed on me because I'm an addict is often difficult. There's the stuff like I have to... I have no choice but to be completely honest with loved ones. There's not a choice. Resentments are a luxury, judgments are a luxury, luxuries I can't afford because if I go there, if I get involved in all that sort of crap, it just isolates me again, and as someone in recovery that's very, very dangerous. And as a gay man in recovery it's suicidal. So there are certain things that I can't do and I have to be really mindful of. I'm also extremely vulnerable because I'm a very sensitive person, and trying to develop relationships and things means that you get bruised, so you have to be very careful, I have to be very careful about how I go about things, and that doesn't necessarily change. But I also don't think that that's just for gay men in recovery, I think that that's for gay men period. Voice 2: If your life is valued enough by society, if you feel good enough about your sexuality, if you're able to integrate that with the other things that you want and get out of your life, then alcohol and drugs will find its right place, and that may be no use at all, and that may be just a moderate use. But if you're really going over the top, then something else in your life ain't right. When I work with gay men who have gotten to alcohol and drug dependencies, and where things in their life have gotten really chaotic, and I see them as a counselor, the alcohol and drug part of their story is dealt with usually quite quickly and then they get off that because that's not what it's really about. It's about despair or it's about loneliness, it's about grief, it's about fear, it's about distress; that's what it is that they want to work on and talk about. And it's in the resolution of those things that the alcohol and drug use then falls into place, and for many of them they say: Ah! I don't need that. I don't want it. Others say: I can't control it. I don't have the confidence of controlling it. I'm better without it. And others are able to return to a moderate use because their issue, the reason why they had to develop a dependent relationship on it has gone. Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 138
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/alison_laurie_profile.html
ATL REF: OHDL-003847
ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089141
TITLE: Alison Laurie profile
USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com.  All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
VOICES: Alison Laurie
INTERVIEWER: Wai Ho
TAGS: 1960s; Alison Laurie; Julie Glamuzina; Parker and Hulme: a lesbian view (book); Wai Ho; activism; education; gay liberation movement; homosexual law reform; human rights; lesbian; profile; relationships; social; teaching; transcript online
DATE: 18 February 2010
YEAR: 2010
LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand
CONTEXT: In this podcast Alison talks about growing up and being involved in queer activism from the 1960s.
TYPE: transcript
TEXT GENERATION DATE: 1999
TEXT: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity Wai: Alison Laurie is the Programme Director of Gender and Women's Studies at Victoria University. Alison is a long-time activist. Alison, as an activist, tell us a little bit about that. Alison Laurie: Well, where should I begin? I come from Wellington. My background is Maori and Pakeha. My father's people come from the South Island, and they were Maori and Cornish, and my mother's people were Scottish and from the Channel Islands. Yeah. They were all rather interesting people with a lot of initiative and that sort of thing. So I suppose when I came along, and of course I'm part of the baby boom generation, we're the generation who grew up in the aftermath of World War II, and the question then was that we were told that the Second World War had been fought for us. We got everything, really. Free milk in schools, apples, free education, free medical, and so we kind of grew up with a sense of entitlement. So I think throughout the world, really, when my generation came of age and understood that we were going to be discriminated against because we were queer or because we were women or because of our ethnic background, or any of those kinds of reasons, this is where you get the big social movements of the 1960s, that people began meeting together and saying, well, this is not acceptable, and working out ways that we could do something about it. Now, that's not to say that people didn't do things before. There's a long trail that goes right back, especially in terms of queer activism, a long trail that goes back at least to the mid-nineteenth century, with people who fought very hard to overcome discrimination, to try to get the laws changed, to try to make a difference. The interesting thing is that as we started coming of age in the 1960s, we didn't know about any of that because that was all a hidden history for us. We weren't being taught about that. It took a long time before we could begin to uncover the fact that there had been people before us, and those people had actually had quite developed politics, and that we had a great deal to learn from them. So that was important, too, and I suppose it's also been important to my generation that we left a very good trail so that that kind of invisibility would not happen as easily again. Doesn't mean it's not going to happen, but.... And part of doing things like this recording is all part of that, too, that we leave as many traces as we can in as many ways as we can so that something is sure to survive, and people in the future will know who was here and what we thought about it and what we tried to change, and where we succeeded and where we didn't, and they can learn from that as well. So, in the '60s it was very difficult. For any male homosexual behavior, men could go to prison for seven years, and they did, and we knew people who did. And the police entrapped them and they would fall into those traps and they'd be taken off to prison. For lesbians there wasn't actually a law about sex between women, except the 1961 Crimes Act did add in lesbianism for the first time by criminalizing women over 21 with girls under 16, which you could agree with. But once you put a definition into law you can play around with those ages, so that was a bit of a concern, especially since there were people who thought, why should women get away with this? Wai: What age were you then? Alison: Well, coming into my 20s. Wai: So you were really aware of what was happening to gay men, as well as the Crimes Act that included lesbians. Alison: Oh yeah, yeah, we were absolutely aware of that. And the thing then, although men organized here with the Dorian Society, they wouldn't have lesbians as members, so we couldn't belong to that. And also you had 6 o’clock closing. You know, students frequently say to me, oh, tell us about the lesbian bars in the 1950s in New Zealand, because they've been reading a lot of history from America. In New Zealand, after 1918, you had 6 o’clock closing and pubs were shut on Sundays, and the legislation around alcohol was very strict. You couldn't serve food in pubs, for example; you couldn't have any entertainment – this was all thought to encourage people to drink. And women were not served in the public bar. Women could be served in ladies and escort's bars, called cat's bars, where the alcohol cost twice as much as in the public bar, and the idea of ladies and escorts was to help prevent prostitution, because really only prostitutes would want to go into pubs, you see. So really there weren't many places that lesbians could meet publicly except for coffee bars. There were a number of coffee bars, and we were lucky in the post-war period that a lot of people had fled Europe, especially Jewish people, who'd come to New Zealand, and when they arrived, from the '30s onward, they were fairly horrified to see that there was...[interrupted] Wai: [laughing] No coffee. Alison: ... well, so little here, and so they started delicatessens and coffee bars and things like that. So gradually we got a few amenities like that. And these coffee bars, in particular like the Ca d' Oro in Auckland and the Tête-à-Tête here [Wellington], became important meeting places for us, and we called ourselves kamp. We didn't really call ourselves queer; that was regarded as a term of derision. And lesbians didn't use the term lesbian; that was also a word you wouldn't use. Wai: Oh. When did lesbian come into use? Alison: Not until the 1970s with lesbian feminist politics, which is a whole different question. So we called ourselves kamp, and the etymology of that is probably... Normally, we thought it was spelled with a K, and it was used in Australia as well. The etymology of that was said to be that it stood for " known as male prostitute," and it was an abbreviation used by the New South Wales police on files of men who were suspected of being homosexuals. Wai: So women used that term as well. Alison: We used that as well, yeah, yeah. So that was the term we used. So we largely would meet at private parties, and we became aware of some of the overseas organizations. We became aware of The Daughters of Bilitis and their magazine, The Ladder, and we then became aware of the Minorities Research Group in London, producing Arena Three. It was very difficult – almost impossible – to subscribe to these things because you couldn't get foreign currency very easily to send off and subscribe to them, but it was easier with the British one. So, I’d spent time in Australia. I ran away to Australia, actually, when I was 17. Wai: What did your parents think about that? Alison: Well, they'd found this woman in my wardrobe. Wai: [laughing] Oh, goodness! Alison: So, it kind of... Wai: So, literally out of the closet.[laughter] Alison: Very literally, yes. Wai: What was their reaction? Was it like: you're crazy! or, you'll go to jail; or, what have we done? Alison: No, no, no. My parents both worked, and my friend lived with an uncle and aunt here, and I lived at home, and I had just started at University – that was the end of my first attempt to come to University. And so because my parents both worked we would drive there in her car – she had a car – and that's where we could be together. But the neighbors had suggested to my parents that I had a man that I was... because they could see this car outside. So my parents came home to catch this man, but instead they found this woman hiding in the wardrobe. So we just went off together and I left University and we lived together. And then we met a couple more people, and that sort of thing, and then we went to Sydney. Wai: So you ran off to Australia together? Alison: Yeah. Well, we went to Australia and the friends that we'd gone flatting with – we'd flatted here in Wellington for about three or four months – they really had to get to Australia because the mother of one of them was trying to get her daughter committed because she was under 21. That's what they could do, you see, because you're crazy if you're a lesbian. Wai: Right. [laughing] Of course! Alison: Yeah. Yeah, it's a symptom of madness, so your parents could have you committed. And homosexuality wasn't removed from the Psychiatric Illnesses Diagnostics until 1972, so that was a very real threat then. Anyway, I spent, altogether, a couple of years in Australia and saw the communities there and all of that sort of thing. It was pretty wild, pretty rough communities in those cities. And there were a lot of New Zealanders, and New Zealanders who had been going back and forth. Wai: Kind of wild and rough in what way? Parties or just hard? Alison: Oh, parties and a lot of... Well, for example, the pub where lesbians met, and many gay men, was the Rex Hotel in Kings Cross in Sydney, and the police raided it all the time. And the police would.... Even though also there, there was no law against lesbians, but the police vice squad thought there should be, so they would try to find reasons to arrest lesbians. They'd say they were drunk. There were all kinds of stories about how lesbians got arrested. They'd push a hotel glass into their hands and say, you've been found with a stolen hotel glass – the sort of stuff that was in a way like a big game between a set of players and a whole lot of other people. It's very much outsiders. And also of course, in those hotels, which were the only places where lesbians and gay men were welcome, because remember, many hotel owners wouldn't have you there, you'd come in and you’d be thrown out, so those were the hotels where quite big criminal elements will soon meet. There was a close association with prostitution. Some lesbians in Australia did live on the earnings of prostitutes because people had problems getting employment. So, they were pretty difficult public communities. Now, there were also very discreet networks of middle-class people, but the thing is if you were young you really didn't have a lot of access to those middle-class networks because they would immediately think, gosh, an underage person could be trouble, and that sort of thing. So there wasn't anything like the kinds of communities that you might think about today. You've got public communities who are largely young, largely working class, and who do have quite a few problems; and there's a close association with criminal networks, as well, so there's constant fear of police harassment. The police also, in New South Wales, had some laws which made it quite easy to arrest; and that was true actually in South Australia in Victoria as well. There were laws which were called the consorting laws, and they'd been set up at the beginning of the twentieth century to break up the gangs in Australia, and the charge was habitual consorting with known criminals. Now, habitual meant that you'd have to be booked, from memory, something like eight times, consorting with a known criminal. Now, a known criminal is not one that's been charged. Wai: [laughs] Just known. Alison: Just known to the police, or suspected of being a criminal. So if you were hanging out with gay men, they're known criminals because they're suspected of homosexuality, which is a criminal offense. And of these bookings, only four they needed to tell you [of] – the others could be silent bookings. So, then you might get this charge put against you a year later and you've got to prove that you were not doing something on the 21st of July, two years ago.[laughter] Alison: So that was always pretty successful. And you could get a two-year jail sentence for that. Wai: So these were Australian laws. Alison: These were Australian laws. Wai: Were the New Zealand laws similar or quite different? Alison: No, they were quite different. They didn't have consorting laws, but there was a vice squad and they certainly had similar attitudes to lesbians, and certainly some of those police officers did absolutely think that it was wrong that lesbians should be getting away with it. Wai: So what brought you back from the rough bars of Sydney? Alison: Oh, I came back and I went to work for broadcasting. Wai: Did you try to go back to University or were you just trying to get into broadcasting? Alison: No, I did go. I did go back and do a couple of units part-time, but by that point I was working full-time. Yeah, so I did that. And that was the time, really, where we've got these communities here, those kinds of things are happening, and we know about these associations that are beginning or have begun in the United States and in Britain, and that holds out a whole other kind of hope that you might have a political organization that's working for social change. And I was already involved with things like CND – the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. I'd been involved with that since I was at school. Wai: So you've always kind of felt...? Alison: Social change. Wai: Social change [crosstalk]. Alison: Yeah, and that social change was possible, and that you could change. And, you know, why shouldn't you change things? Why should you just accept things that you believe are wrong? Why? Who are these people that have the right to tell you how to live your life? Who are these people? Wai: Do you feel like that drive that we can change things, it is possible, is something that's still sifting around in the ether today, in these times? Alison: Oh, I think that's a hard question. Um, I don't know. I think the problem when you get an economic recession is that you can start to get a kind of sense of hopelessness, and you also start to get people who go along with the status quo because they don't want to rock the boat and they think that if they all put their head down that they're not going to be the one that gets hit on. But of course that's never the case. It's what I call the Niemoller syndrome, and that's what happened to people in Nazi Germany. Back then, Niemoller said: First they came for the Jews, and I wasn't a Jew so I didn't say anything; then they came for the social democrats and I wasn't... and so forth; then eventually they came for me, and by that time there was nobody left to speak up. And I think we forget that if you don't try to prevent something it will get worse. I think there's no point hoping that that's all there's going to be, that we'll just allow this little thing to happen – we'll just allow a little thing to happen like get rid of ACC [Accident Compensation Corporation] and that'll be all – because it doesn't work like that. If they're successful, then more things will happen. That's the one thing you can be certain of, and history proves that to us time and time and time again, and that's not going to change. Once someone has some successes, then they continue – and we all would, we all would, we all do it in whatever thing we believe in. Yes, anyway, I went to Britain. I joined MRG. Wai: MRG? Alison: The Minorities Research Group, which was the first lesbian association. It was largely social, but that in itself was political, to have something like that. We had discussion groups, and there was actually a whole network of people right throughout England. It was started by a woman called Esme Langley, who was pretty shocked when she started it, because immediately she got phone calls from all over Britain of women saying: I'm in love with the woman next door. I don't know what to do if my husband finds out. I think I'm going to kill myself. So, suddenly it was very apparent that there was this huge need of people who were very isolated, and that there was a need to create some kind of social services and those sorts of things. Anyway, I was there, and then I went travelling, as you do, and I wound up in Denmark and I lived there for a long time and became a Danish citizen. I was involved with the lesbian/gay association there, which was called the Forbundet of 1948 because it had been founded in 1948, and that was very good to get that experience of living in a society which had a very strong commitment to social justice, which was very progressive, where you worked with and learnt from people in one of those typical European, quite conservative lesbian/gay associations which had been founded after the war years. Who actually, they were the inheritors of all those pre-war organizations about which we hadn't known anything, like the Hirschfeld Organization founded in 1895 in Berlin, like the extensive network of organizations that existed until wiped out by the Nazis in 1933 in Germany, and then throughout occupied Europe, about which I'd known nothing until going to live and work in those countries. And even they were only beginning to uncover information about what had gone before, because so much of what had gone before had been so systematically destroyed by the Nazis. So anyway, that was very good working with that organization. And then gay liberation came. I was there when gay liberation began, and that really revolutionized the political approaches we took because the approach of gay liberation wasn't that there's a set minority that should be seeking civil rights or human rights. The view of gay liberation is still totally revolutionary today. The aim was to bring out the lesbian and gay man in everybody's head, and the problem is heterosexuality, so let's examine that and see just what's wrong with that and why it's compulsory. And actually, if it was so natural, it wouldn't need to be made compulsory because everybody would just be flocking to it. [laughs] So, those messages of gay liberation were very powerful and very important and that was how our politics then developed. And then very soon lesbian feminism developed because, with the newly emergent ideas of gay liberation and the big proliferation of a lot of people joining those organizations, you got a lot of very conservative gay men who had never really worked with women. And infact, they were more conservative, really, than straight men might have been, because at least straight men, if they lived with a woman, they'd be trying to get along with her and she might be telling them things. But some of those gay men really had had very little to do with women and they didn't want to, and their idea about working in a mixed organization, these new ones who were coming in, was: well yes, of course the women should be doing the typing and making the coffee. And of course, they would be making the important speeches. Wai: So there was issue taken with that? [laughs] Alison: Oh, indeed. So lesbians started to feel quite agitated. And this was a world-wide thing, too. You get reports from New York and right throughout the United States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand – the same things are happening. And in the women's movement, in the feminist movement, there's a similar thing happening as more conservative women began to join these women's organizations. The vanguard are pretty out there so they don't care, and a lot of them are lesbians; but then you want to attract more women and then they’re there, and then those women are saying: Oh! People might think we're all lesbians! [laughter] Oh, don't take that sign along to the demonstration that says lesbians support abortion rights! Don't put lesbian on the sign. Everybody will think we're lesbians! So lesbians kind of found themselves in a position of dealing with the homophobia, the lesbophobia of straight feminists in some parts of the women's movement, and dealing with sexism among some parts of the gay movement, so then you'd get the rise of separate lesbian organizations. So it's right about this time that I'd come back here, and in between I go to the States and go around to all those organizations there, and that was very exciting and everything was happening, and it was a great time. The '70s were a terrific time because everything seemed possible. It's a real watershed between the old and the new. This is where the baby-boom generation really come together to make fantastic, very rapid social changes, and things are never the same again. And that's the point of people learning from other progressive organizations, particularly the black civil rights movement, so that out of concepts like black pride, you'd get things like gay pride, lesbian pride, and visibility and these kinds of ways of political action which no longer are reliant upon just accommodating and being grateful for whatever crumbs might fall off the table of the powerful, but actually starting to demand a seat at the table and saying: Why shouldn't I be here at this table making these decisions with you? Why should I be crawling around on the floor, grateful for whatever little crumb you might be choosing to give me? So it was a very important time, and I think also it's a time that.... You have other periods in history which are revolutionary in that sense, too. People who were alive during the French Revolution in the late eighteenth century say similar kinds of things. Wordsworth, for example, in his poem about the French Revolution: Bliss was it in that time, to be alive? But to be young was very heaven. These are moments in history when things are moving very fast, and you feel that you're on the crest of a wave. You're all moving in the same direction and change can happen and you can see it happening daily. You can see that you're making changes. So I came back here...[interrupted] Wai: What did the wave feel like when it stopped? Alison: Well, there was a lot of consolidation to do, and needing to evaluate a lot of the things that had happened. So I came back in '73. We started the Sisters for Homophile Equality that was the first lesbian organization here. These days it seems like a pretty silly title, but you couldn't use lesbian. You couldn't get it in the newspaper – they wouldn't print it. A lot of women absolutely didn't want to call themselves that. Homophile, we thought, was an advance on homosexual, because at least it kind of meant lover of the same rather than just having sex all the time. And it had a decent acronym which was SHE. We started the magazine, Circle, which was New Zealand's first lesbian magazine, and that ran from 1973 until 1986, so it's still the longest running lesbian magazine. And we started Club 41 here in Wellington, which was on Vivian Street. That was the first lesbian club here in Wellington. Wai: What do you mean by club? Alison: Well, it was a club for women. Wai: So it was like a bar? Alison: Like a bar, yeah, selling liquor illegally.[laughter] Wai: Lovely! Alison: You did it through a ticket system, was how people did it then. So people would buy the tickets and they'd exchange the tickets for the alcohol, so they're not directly buying the alcohol. Wai: I see. I see. Sneaky. Alison: Yeah. The police would be raiding it and that sort of thing, so eventually it closed in 1977 because that happened once too often. But there's a really interesting history around having a venue, that sort of meeting place. Interestingly, with something like the Club 41, the policy was always that it was a club for women, and far from lesbian feminists being highly separatist at that time, the idea was that you wanted to welcome women who identified as heterosexual into everything because they would immediately become lesbians.[laughter] Alison: And the idea was that any woman can be a lesbian, and should be. And quotes by Martha Shelley, which people would write up everywhere: In a society where men oppress women, to be a lesbian is a sign of mental health. And in fact, in Christchurch, because SHE began first in Christchurch and then we started it here, but in Christchurch the women from SHE actually started the first Women's Refuge in the country. So, to give them credit, they don't deny this, that not only was the first refuge in the country started by lesbians, it was started by a lesbian organization. And Jo Crowley, who is now a lesbian activist in Auckland, was the first person looking after that refuge, so she lived there. She was only 18 at the time, and they had posters all around the walls with things like " Come Out." So these women would be leaving their violent marriages and coming to this house, and everyone just thought, oh, as soon as they get here they'll come out as lesbians. Of course, they'll leave their husbands and come out as lesbians. And they did! That's the interesting thing; that with a lot of those women in those early years, that's exactly what did happen.[laughter] Alison: Not so much later on, I'd say, but it was certainly a thing. And one of the things that was very clear in those years was that the single thing that meant that more New Zealand women could come out was the DPB [Domestic Purposes Benefit], because that meant that women had a means of support. Prior to the DPB, which was introduced in 1972, women really could not easily leave their marriages. Women were very trapped. You'd had a society which was not a particularly equal society at all, where economic opportunities for women to be economically independent were not great, so you had very high rates of women marrying – young marriage – especially in the post-war period. So a lot of women had ended up in marriages who then realized that that really wasn't what they wanted to do. So you had a lot of women coming out in the '70s and you had a lot of ideas around that that's what they should do, so it really started to be quite a big movement. Wai: And this is still more than a decade before homosexual law reform. Alison: Oh, yes. Yes. Well, homosexual law reform was able to happen because of these organizations. Wai: So was it kind of like a critical mass? Alison: It's a critical mass. Now remember, the gay organizations... So, you've still got some lesbians working in mixed gay organizations and gay liberation. You've got some lesbians working in separate lesbian organizations. You've still got organizations like the Dorian Society that are gay men. Now and then they would admit women, and then after they'd done that for a month or two they'd say, oh, we can't have women – they get drunk and fight.[Hannah laughs] Alison: So you've got some gay separatists, you've got quite a disparate lot of different organizations, plus you've still got the old kamp communities. Now interestingly, the kamp communities in this country were, certainly from the 1950s, and probably earlier, but not much is documented prior to the 1950s, predominantly Māori and predominantly working class. And what you get with Māori is a massive urbanization taking place from 1945 so that 3/4 of the Māori population live in rural areas in 1945; by 1970, 3/4 now live in urban areas. And what we do know is that a lot of those young people were lesbians or gay, which can have been a strong motivation for why you might want to leave the country area. I think an interesting and very influential person here in Wellington was Carmen, who was Trevor Rupe, and she came originally to Auckland and then to Wellington, and Carmen started Carmen's Coffee Bar which became a very important meeting place, and then Carmen's Balcony, later, which became very important in Victoria Street. So Carmen's a very flamboyant figure. At the time, Carmen would have identified herself as a drag queen, as would many of the people who worked there – important, flamboyant figures in the history of Wellington: people like Tiffany, and people who really were right on the edge in terms of actually creating visibility, creating meeting spaces, and showing fantastic courage right through. And that's one of the things that you'd have to think about; all those early communities required courage to be out there. It wasn't the most comfortable thing in the world to be doing, because you still had a great deal of hostility throughout the society. So, gay liberation conferences start to be held. The first lesbian conference is held in 1974; it's held here at Victoria University. And then the National Gay Rights Coalition forms, and that's an umbrella organization for all of these organizations – we've got something like 35 organizations throughout the country. That makes it possible to have a unified political approach so that with various law reform attempts that start surfacing, the NGRC can take a considered view of them. And by this stage, the view was that there has to be an equal age-of-consent, so we're not going to go in for any half measures. It's clear from the British legislation, if you accept an age of consent of 21 you're going to be stuck with that for years, and also it's highly insulting. Why would you want a different age of consent? This is discriminatory; we're not going to accept it. Now obviously, some of the more conservative and older gay men believed that there should be law reform at any cost. And you can also appreciate their position. Some of them had been to prison, so they felt that any reform was better than no reform. So there are differing opinions about this that start emerging Because of a very difficult campaign around some proposed reforms around the Freer bills, and because of amendments that were proposed that would have decriminalized male homosexual acts but would have made the promotion of homosexuality illegal, the coalition ran out of steam, so it collapsed, really. So by the time we got to the early '80s and the introduction of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill in 1985, you don't have any of those organizations. What you have are the Gay Taskforce in Auckland and in Wellington, and they'd been put together fairly recently – they were put together in 1984. There was an Equality Bill Coalition in Auckland which wanted a pretty dicey bill that probably would have ended up including women, and which lesbians opposed and which, fortunately, the women MPs could say that it wasn't a good idea. Anyway, by the time you get to 1985, Fran Wilde agreed to put a bill through, but it was a very difficult campaign because there was immediate mobilization from the right wing against that, and they were well funded and supported from fundamentalist organizations in the United States. So it was a pretty hard campaign, so I won't talk about that in any detail. Wai: So it's really important... I'm kind of getting a grasp that there's just so much history that's so important to kind of get now. Alison: Well, you need to get it all in context. So after the homosexual reform passed in 1986, and we'd had that very hard-fought two years that was very, very difficult, and we lost, of course, the human rights part of the bill, which was the addition of sexual orientation. And we'd been fighting for that for a long time. Since the inception of the Human Rights Act in 1977, the National Gay Rights Coalition had been trying to get sexual orientation into the Human Rights Act, tried very formally with the Homosexual Law Reform Bill part two, but that was defeated. So that reemerged in '91 when Katherine O'Regan, by that point you've got a national government, Katherine O'Regan, who had taken over Marilyn Waring's seat, agreed to take this at private member's bill, so that was finally achieved with the addition of several new grounds into the act, in the 1993 Human Rights Act. And we managed to get, which was a big battle, we managed to get sexual orientation defined as heterosexual, homosexual, lesbian or bisexual, because otherwise we felt it was unclear, and it's difficult to know how well people would identify their particular area of discrimination. Wai: Yeah, so big, big struggles, big changes, and big gains I think, as well, in the last three decades. Alison: I think you have to get the legal changes done first. It needs to be understood that without the passage of the Human Rights Act, then that sets the stage, although the government gives itself an extension. Immediately it applies to private business, so the protections are not across the board. The protections are in the provision of goods and services and the provision of employment and of housing. So goods and services then start to become an area of: what does this mean? So, obviously, it probably does mean marriage, so that sets the stage for what then has to happen. Now, government gives itself an extension initially, until the year 2000, and then it extends that further. So, whatever government you had in had to do something like the Civil Union Act, because you have to – it's in accordance with that original legislation from '93. So everything stems from that. And also then, the Statutory References Act, which goes right through all government legislation to ensure that there is no difference made between same-sex couples or people, and different-sex couples. So it follows very logically, and that has followed into immigration policy, now into the registration of births. Wai: So, very far reaching. Alison: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And without... We used to have big discussions right through the '70s and '80s, as to whether, if you just work on law reform, surely you should work on changing people's attitudes, but the other side of that is that for many people what changes their attitudes is the law. If they suddenly find out they're going to be breaking the law if they say they're not going to hire a lesbian...[interrupted] Wai: [laughing] I'll bet that helps with the attitude change pretty quickly. Alison: It does. It helps very quickly. And that was the evidence from overseas and that was the evidence that I had known about from living in Denmark and living in Norway, and knowing that as soon as you put laws of that kind in, then within probably two or three years of those laws being there the majority of people just accept them. So it really does; this helps promote the attitude change. And also, maybe the campaign for changing the law helps you do public education anyway, so that it all helps to do that. Wai: Cool. So, 2010? What are your hopes for the future, politically, law-wise, socially? Alison: Vigilance. Vigilance, because I think if you... I think there are really interesting lessons to be learned from the past, and I was just recently at an event about the Holocaust run by the Holocaust Center here. And there was a very interesting speech made by a Jewish speaker whose family had come from Austria, and who spoke about what things were like in Germany. You know, Germany was the center of culture, it was tremendously progressive, it was the place where Jewish people had been able to make their homes and live free from discrimination for a long time. It was a center of art and music, and also it was a center for homosexual activism. This person didn't talk about that, but we know that. There were big organizations. There were dozens of lesbian and gay magazines in Berlin. There were organizations everywhere. But this person talking about what happened to Jewish people said that what had become really clear to them between the '30s was, if this could happen in Germany, which was so progressive, it could happen anywhere, and that you could never be certain what might happen in a society. And what you need to think about are the kinds of turns and twists and the things you might accommodate to and the things that might allow other kinds of regimes to come to power and what those regimes might do. And what we do know is that depressions are dangerous because people start looking for scapegoats. It doesn't take much to fan people up, to decide that this group or that group, they're the troublemakers; if we just got rid of them everything would be fine. And whether you decide that you're going to fan up the flames against Islamists, or you're going to fan it up against Chinese immigrants, or whether you're going to fan it up against queer people, it's a very similar kind of mechanism and I think we have to be very vigilant about that and watchful, not only for what is happening to queer people, but any kind of mechanism which starts to create " others" the othering of groups that then it becomes permissible to treat those people as subhuman, to start denying them rights, to start excluding them and those kinds of things. I think it's very good that a generation coming of age in 2010 don't have to go through all the things that we did, and that they can just live their lives, nonetheless, I think it's very important that they're aware of the history so that they are watchful, and so they know how you can strategize and how you can fight if these things start to happen – what you do immediately. I think it's important to have strong organizations because just working on your own you very easily get picked off. I think it's very important to have strong organizations and good communications, because that's crucial. Every kind of resistance movement has had a way of getting its messages out. And OK, so these days we've got the Internet and texting, as against where once upon a time we had to type things up and make copies with carbon paper and distribute them like that. I'd say to that, that losing...[interrupted] Wai: Don't forget the carbon paper. Alison: Don't forget that technology because if the worst comes to the worst, we might have to do that again because things like the Internet can be controlled. Wai: Yeah, totally. Alison: We now learn that Telecom said they were going to... Wai: All our text messages [crosstalk]. Alison: They said they're going to get rid of them now, but I didn't even know they collected them, and we should have realized that, of course. So we need some kind of independent way of ensuring that we have a method of communication that's independent and might be very low technology, but that we can manage to do even if the worst came to the worst. That's important. And I think it's important to have strong organizations, and it bothers me that we don't have as many organizations as I'd like to see us have, by membership organizations that are well supported economically and that are in a position to act when necessary, and all of that. Wai: Thank you so much for your time and for sharing with us all of that, Alison! Alison: You're welcome! Transcript by cyberscrivener. com

IRN: 7846
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_homosexual_law_reform_bill_third_reading_continued_9_july_1986.html
TITLE: Homosexual Law Reform Bill - third reading continued (9 July 1986)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 9 July 1986
YEAR: 1986
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 9 July 1986, New Zealand Parliament. The third reading of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill having been called, Dr BILL SUTTON (Hawke's Bay) said: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker, under Standing Order 235. I move, That the order of the day for the third reading of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill be discharged, and that the Bill be recommitted for consideration of the amendments set out in Supplementary Order Paper 33. I am speaking under part (2) of the Standing Order. The Homosexual Law Reform Bill is finely balanced between victory and defeat. If the Bill had been voted on last week it would have been defeated by one vote; if it is voted on tonight it may well pass or fail by a similar margin. That is not the best way for the House to dispose finally of such important legislation when, with a further small amendment that does no real damage to the principles of the Bill, it could be passed by a convincing majority and receive majority support from the New Zealand people. The House divided on the question, That the order of the day for the third reading of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill be discharged, and that the Bill be recommitted for consideration of the amendments set out in Supplementary Order Paper 33. Ayes 18 Austin, M. E.; Austin, W. R.; Burdon; Colman; Cox; Dillon; Gair; Gerard; Graham; Jeffries; Luxton; McKinnon; O'Flynn; Storey; Sutton, J. R.; Young, T. J. Tellers: Elder; Sutton, W. D. Noes 68 Anderton; Angus; Austin, H. N.; Banks; Bassett; Batchelor; Birch; Bolger; Boorman; Braybrooke; Burke; Butcher; Caygill; Clark; Cooper; Cullen; de Cleene; Douglas; Dunne; East; Falloon; Fraser; Friedlander; Gerbic; Goff; Gray; Gregory; Hercus; Hunt; Isbey; Jones; Keall; Kidd; King; Knapp; Lange; Lee; McClay; McTigue; Marshall, C. R.; Marshall, D. W. A.; Matthewson; Maxwell, R. K.; Moore; Morrison; Moyle; Neilson; Northey; O'Regan; Palmer; Peters; Prebble; Rodger; Scott; Shields; Shirley; Talbot; Tapsell; Terris; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Tizard; Wallbank; Wellington; Wetere; Woollaston; Young, V. S. Tellers: Mallard; Wilde. Majority against: 50 Motion negatived. Third Reading Debate resumed from 2 July 1986. Hon. GEORGE GAIR (Deputy Leader of the Opposition): This is one of the hours in the life of Parliament when one makes a decision whether one likes it or not, one hopes for the better, and one does one's best. There is not a member in the House who is not presented with this problem. I am conscious that the House is divided fairly evenly on the issue. I am conscious that the community is divided, the political parties are divided, and the churches are divided on an issue that has gone on for too long. However, it was better to try to stay the distance and get the right answer than to come to a wrong answer in a short time. As members know I have tried to find a compromise between two extreme positions. The positions did not start as extreme, but they became extreme as the debate developed; positions hardened; attitudes became more and more intransigent; the community became divided; and that is bad. Sometimes change is inevitable, and responsible change is necessary. In 1974 my colleague the member for Waitotara introduced legislation that was defeated by-as I recall it-only seven votes. Had it been passed there would have been no such division in the country today, because New Zealand legislation would have been on a par with that of much, indeed most, of the Western World. In our present legislation creating criminals of homosexuals, who live their lives and do their thing in private away from the public scene-we share honours with a handful of states in the United States, the state of Queensland, Ireland, and South Africa. The rest of the Western World has learnt to adapt to changing times, but for New Zealand that was not to be. Attempts at changing the law since then have not been successful until now-partly because of the zealous support of the enthusiasts for change. The Bill that is now being considered in its final hours presented the House with two suggestions: first, to change the Crimes Act, with which I agree; and, second, to change the Human Rights Commission Act, with which I disagree. Most members of Parliament and most New Zealanders are against that, and Parliament has already defeated that measure. With the best of motives, the people who have sponsored the Bill may have asked for too much. By asking for too much they created a bow wave of opposition that produced the arguments that now divide New Zealand. Until the past few hours I had felt that some compromise, particularly on the matter of age, might still be possible. It was not until last night that I finally realised that the hardening of opinion over the months of the debate meant that a compromise was no longer possible. The attitude was " Like it or lump it - the whole deal, or nothing at all". It is not a satisfactory position, but that is the choice that each member must face tonight. The last opportunity for a compromise, which I could have supported enthusiastically, was lost in the wrong vote on Wednesday night when the member for Fendalton had his motion defeated by 63 votes to 22. The protagonists of change in an unchanged form-in other words, the Bill with Part I as it stands - and the opponents of the Bill joined forces to defeat any reasonable attempt to find a middle ground. The argument has been going on for so long that, inevitably, Parliament must now face the final crunch. That there has been no willingness to compromise is as much on the heads of those who are opposed to the Bill as of those who are in favour of the Bill in its present form. Each could have worked with those in the middle ground to find a compromise that would have produced a change in the law, but with an age limit a little higher than that proposed in the Bill. Those who, like myself, represent the middle ground are presented with three options: to vote against the Bill; to abstain; or to vote for the Bill unamended. I cannot vote against the Bill, because a change is long overdue - and that I have sought to make clear. For some time I considered that perhaps the course was to abstain, and I agonised over that. I must say that some aspects of abstention are appealing, but, in the final analysis, an abstention would pass the responsibility over to others, and that I am not prepared to do. Therefore, I was presented with what I feel is a difficult choice between two propositions, neither of which I like, but one of which I like less than the other. So when the vote is taken I will vote in favour of the Bill but with considerable reluctance. New Zealand has been badly divided on the issue. I should like to feel that the hard things that have been said in the Chamber, and the hard things that have been said outside the Chamber, will be eased and forgiven, whatever the result. From the middle of a great foot-deep heap of correspondence that has deluged my office recently I plucked two letters. Coincidentally, they involve two communications that represent the diversity of the extremes in the argument. The first is a simple thank-you card, which states: “Thank you for saying yes to the law reform Bill.” I have no doubt that that was written with total sincerity. The second is a letter that, among other things, states: " With your stand on the homosexual reform Bill you have just determined where you are going to spend eternity", and it refers me to Romans, chapter 1, 24-27. Both those letters were written with total sincerity, and I received them with equal sincerity. After the vote has been taken, and no matter what the outcome, our big task will be to heal the wounds. There is no future for a society that is divided by zealots on the one side and bigots on the other side. New Zealand is a society that stresses tolerance. It is a society that has prided itself on its ability to accommodate gradual social change. That the Bill has asked for too much of the loaf, and finished up with only half, should be accepted as an honourable middle ground. Part II of the Bill, which I believe produced the greatest amount of opposition, has been defeated-it is not before the House. Tonight the House is being asked to approve the decriminalisation of male homosexuality, and that is a strongly justifiable measure. The arguments that remain relate to the matter of the age of consent, and I am sorry that we were unable to make the age 18 years. Had the amendment of the member for Fendalton been accepted I believe that it would have been agreed to by a substantial majority of members and the issue would have been closed. If the vote tonight is finely balanced, it is certain that the argument will return. It will haunt the Chamber until New Zealand society finds a way to live with change. I make a final plea: that whichever way members vote tonight they be not judged too harshly, because even those who oppose the position I hold are voting with their consciences; they are voting for what they believe to be right. JOHN BANKS (Whangarei): What we have just heard was shallow humbug and weak rhetoric from the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. It was a historic dissertation of negligible substance. Until 70 percent of his speech had been delivered, it appeared to be a speech of abstention. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition has obviously had considerable difficulty with his own conscience. He said that the options were to vote against the Bill, to abstain, or to vote in favour of the Bill. Although he said that the sponsors of the Bill in its present form had asked for too much, he said that he is prepared to give them that " too much". I tell the Deputy Leader of the Opposition-as I told him privately-that I am terribly disappointed in him. He is a colleague, and I hope that, after the Bill has gone, he will continue to be a friend. However, I am prepared to stand up and be counted. If the Deputy Leader of the Opposition had voted with the rest of his colleagues just 1 week ago, we would not be debating the Bill tonight - instead, we would be discussing matters of great importance to New Zealand. On behalf of the opponents of this evil Bill, I thank those New Zealanders who have shown encouragement for so long. I thank those people who had an overwhelming objection to the Bill and who were motivated by its evil and their concern for the country-a concern that there was no conciliation in the way the Bill came from the select committee and the Committee of the whole House. I thank those 835,000 people for the considerable amount of work done throughout the country. This day will be remembered as a sad and sickening day for New Zealand. A very black cloud hangs over Parliament tonight, and those members who wheel themselves through the doors of the Ayes lobby to vote for legalised sodomy at the age of 16 should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves, particularly as the family unit in New Zealand is under siege. The family, the building block, the bastion of this country, is under siege even without the kind of legislation that has been foisted on the nation by Parliament tonight. Tonight is the night that I and other opponents will say no and will parade through the Noes lobby at the appropriate time. As those of our colleagues whose consciences have told them to amend the Crimes Act to legalise sodomy at the age of 16 for young New Zealanders come out of the Ayes lobby, we will be prepared to bury the hatchet forthwith. But I stand here and thank the majority of the people of Whangarei, the 835,000 New Zealanders who oppose the Bill, and those decent people who have prayed on the steps of Parliament. I am prepared to stand up and be counted on their behalf tonight. I am also prepared to let the Bill lie once it passes on to the statute book, because that is the democratic process and in this forum members with the right amount of intestinal fortitude can say exactly how they feel about such issues. I stood and said exactly how I felt after my friend and colleague the Deputy Leader of the Opposition had stood up and told the country how he felt. He had a right to do that, and I respect that right, and I have a right to tell the House exactly what I think about the Bill and what I think about members who are prepared to wheel themselves through the Ayes lobby when you, Mr Speaker, decide that you have heard enough. Members heard at the Committee stage that homosexuals cannot change-once a homosexual always a homosexual. There is no evidence to support that view. It is similar to the Victorian view that once one was an alcoholic one was always an alcoholic. Members heard at the Committee stage that homosexuals are born that way, that they have no choice but to be the way they are. Most leading psychologists now agree that homosexuality is not innate and does not have any generic connection. Members were told that a person should be able to do what he or she wants to in the privacy of his or her bedroom. That is untrue. Taken to an extreme, if that was so, how would society protect itself from incest in the privacy of the bedroom, from child abuse in the privacy of the bedroom, from bigamy in the privacy of the bedroom, and, at the ultimate extreme, from euthanasia in the privacy of the bedroom? Someone must stand up and say that the country is in trouble. Enough is enough. I am prepared to take a stand on behalf of the 835,000 New Zealanders who said no with a signature on a petition, and the many hundreds of thousands of people who are very concerned about the shenanigans in Parliament today. Most New Zealanders support gay rights, which is the right to be gay. That is what we heard, but 835,000 New Zealanders said that Parliament should not legitimise the act of sodomy at any age. Tonight those people find themselves facing the worst option, that of age 16. During the Committee stage members heard that compassion should be shown to those people. To pretend that such behaviour is normal or healthy is no more sensible than to celebrate with an alcoholic his alcohol drinking problem. I finish as I started: at last I am prepared to say in the House on behalf of most of my constituency that homosexuality is wrong on every occasion. They have told me that it is wrong and I will stand up in Parliament and say that it is wrong. I do not care what ridicule I get from Government members-because most of the Bill's supporters come from that side of the House-but members must say no to the Bill tonight. MAURICE McTIGUE (Timaru): Even before I came to Parliament this Bill was being debated. More than 12 months later it is still before the House. The issue is described as one of conscience, and I hope that for all members of the House the matter is one to make them search their consciences, call upon the value judgments that a lifetime has taught them, and consider the things that they hold to be precious and important to them when making that judgment. I am the only member of the House who has faced a true poll on the issue of whether or not to legalise homosexuality, in that it was a matter of substantial public concern at the time of the by-election in Timaru. Although more than 15,000 people signed the petition in Timaru, which was conducted at about the same time as the by-election there, I was not persuaded by their opinion; I was persuaded by my own conscience to oppose the Bill. I was persuaded by my conscience because the lawmakers of the land must accept the responsibility not only for making the law but also for ensuring that when they make that law they send signals to the population at large about what is right and desirable for society as a whole and what is wrong. At the beginning of the sitting each day we pray to Almighty God for guidance to use the right judgments in the decisions we make, and that those judgments of God should also be a judgment upon us while we make those decisions. During the Committee stage of the Bill we heard many quotations and misquotations from people of all degrees of commitment and of all religious persuasions. I was particularly attracted to some of the comments made by Cardinal Williams in some of his communications to the people of his archdiocese. I shall read to the House one or two of those quotations, because they put many of the issues that are most important in the debate into a proper perspective. He said that he opposed the Bill because he believes it is not in the real interests of homosexuals or society as a whole. In saying that to his people, Cardinal Williams meant that he believed it was very important that the Government, in making its laws, makes laws that are morally right. In so doing, it would then be serving the needs of society. Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member is definitely moving into material that would be appropriate for a second reading, but it is rather inappropriate for a third reading. I realise that the debate has already widened, but it is not as yet, in my opinion, about the general nature and principles of the Bill. However, the discussions of outside comment on the Bill is undoubtedly within that range. MAURICE McTIGUE: Those issues were debated quite widely during the Committee stage, and many of those statements were questioned. I reiterate them because I believe that they are the basis of my commitment in opposing the Bill. Part II of the Bill, dealing with human rights, was defeated during the Committee stage. While that improved the Bill, it did not take away that which is still most abhorrent to me-the moral and social acceptance of homosexuality as an equal alternative sexuality. I believe that that will give the very worst of messages to young people. I will be deeply disappointed if the Bill is passed this evening. I accept that there are many members who, having gone through a similar process to me, have made a different decision. I respect their right to make that decision, and I respect their right and ability to vote in that way. I would still be disappointed to see them make that decision because I believe that they are wrong. I believe that they are morally wrong, and wrong in the way they are representing the people of their electorates. During the Committee stage it became apparent that many lobby groups had a very strong attitude towards the passage of the Bill. Those strong lobby groups may well have influenced members of the House, but I would ask those members to give further consideration to the attitude they have taken and, even at this late stage, ask them to make the decision to change their minds. For many of those people who have come to Parliament on Wednesday evenings to watch the passage of the Bill, the vote will be a traumatic event whichever way the decision goes. Those people have had their opportunities through the select committee, and in the poll that was taken. In that poll 830,000 people exercised the option to express their opinion on the matter. Even though the poll was severely questioned during the Committee stage, it was never brought into disrepute. I believe it stands as the real poll on the issue, and that it will stand for all time as the real poll on the issue. When members of the House go to the voting lobbies tonight they will either accept or reject the opinion expressed by that large number of New Zealanders who were so committed that they were prepared to place their signatures upon that document. In passing the Bill we are opening the door to members of the humanistic element of society who have set aside many of the value judgments they grew up with. They are now bringing into society a different set of value judgments. I reject in total those value judgments they are trying to set up. Society must revert to the judgments and values of the past, and members must be prepared to say in the House that they believe strongly in the family unit. Many speakers in the Committee stage raised the issue of the family unit, and I believe that it is at the heart of the matter. Heterosexual activity is at the heart of a good marriage. Heterosexual activity brings together loving partners for the procreation and the continuation of mankind, and any rejection of heterosexual activity is a rejection of the family. There were people who from time to time went so far as to propound the idea that in time there would be homosexual marriages as the equal of heterosexual marriages. I totally reject that philosophy. It has been a trying time, during which all members have been torn in different ways and many close friendships have been harmed. We are being asked to make a decision. I hope that, after having made that decision in the House, I will be able to view many of those who have voted in favour of the Bill with the same respect as before. As the Deputy Leader of the Opposition said, it is something to which we should direct our minds, but it will be very difficult for many of us to do. If it is difficult for us to do, it will be even more so outside in the community. We have an obligation to the rest of the community to pay very special attention to people's needs, concerns, and reflections regarding the Bill before we finally decide. The House is well filled this evening, but probably many members in the House tonight have already decided how they will vote on the Bill. I make a plea to them to consider, before they make that final decision, that they will be party to sanctioning the practising of sodomy at the age of 16 years if they support the Bill. They should reconsider their position; they should reconsider the implications for society as a whole of passing the Bill; they should consider the future of good marriages within society, and the future of society as a whole if we allow the degeneration of values that the Bill represents. For many members the debate will be the most important of the session, and I can only trust that members will vote responsibly. Hon. VENN YOUNG (Waitotara): I shall contain my remarks to the Bill as it came out of the Committee, and I hope that that will make your task somewhat easier, Mr Speaker, but first I shall speak of some experience akin to that of the member for Wellington Central. Whatever we may think of the Bill she has been promoting, we must recognise that she shoulders a very heavy personal burden. There is no doubt that her correspondence would not be contained in her office. Ten years ago I piloted through certain stages of the House a reform Bill that was a modest step forward by comparison with the Bill that has just come from the Committee. When the member for Wellington Central said she was prepared to introduce the Homosexual Law Reform Bill, the advice I gave her was that there is nothing more difficult than to persuade the people of New Zealand and one's own colleagues to decide on a definition of what is moral and what is legal. Members of Parliament are not the keepers of the morals of the nation. Our responsibility is to the laws of the nation. Therefore, we must keep that in mind in making a decision about whether the Bill should proceed to its third reading. I do not know if any members are still uncommitted in their views about which lobby door they will move through when the division is taken. My colleague the Deputy Leader of the Opposition said that the House is sharply and finely divided. The Bill will be won or lost by two or three votes. In those circumstances we should ask whether we should change the law, which has remained the same for a long time. The legislation as originally introduced by the member for Wellington Central went too far. The 16-year age of consent is the provision that I know troubled many members of the House and troubled the population at large. I have heard speaker after speaker say that no criminal law should apply when homosexual adults are engaged in those practices in private-whatever they may be or however they might offend us. We must ask ourselves who is an adult. Is an adult a person aged 16? Is an adult even a person aged 18, which is a compromise that was sought? The answer is again no. It may seem a modest step forward, but I believe that those who support homosexual law reform, across the broad stretch of people, believe that the law should be changed for consenting adults in private-that is, for those people aged 20 and over. That is why I believe-although it was rejected by a large majority - that the most adequate amendment the House considered in Committee was the first amendment put forward by my colleague the member for Fendalton. That would have resolved the issue. The battle may be won tonight but the war will not be won. As members we know only too well, regardless of where the majority lies tonight, that the battle will be won but not the war. There will be a Pyrrhic victory, and its cost in a divided community will be too great. Time after time I have heard people try to discredit the total of 800,000 signatures on a petition. Even if there were 500,000, that would be half a million people who are concerned at the trend of the law is taking. If the Legislature accepts an age of 16 it is getting too far ahead of the people. I suggest that in the finely divided position in which we find ourselves we should not vote for change, but that at a later stage some member should bring to the House an amending Bill that is more along the lines that the majority the people will accept. The member for Glenfield shakes her head. The House has demonstrated by its rejection of Part II of the Bill that it does not consider equally matters of heterosexuality and homosexuality. It has said that. That is the only reason the age of 16 remains. There are those who will argue for different laws for heterosexual acts and homosexual acts. The population at large does not place them on the same level or give them the same consideration. Whether that is right or wrong, they do not do that. Although I subscribe strongly to the early comment of my colleague the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, I will not go with him to vote on the Bill. I believe that the decision will be divisive and will not achieve the necessary real reform, which is a reform in understanding, compassion, and tolerance. I shall, therefore, vote against the third reading. TREVOR YOUNG (Eastern Hutt): Tonight members of the House face the final decision they will be called upon to make on the third reading of the Bill. Members have spoken genuinely about their approach to the matter. I listened intently to the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, and I share some of the anguish he feels-although I might disagree with his conclusion. I know that he, like other members, has wrestled closely with the problem, and we have taken it upon ourselves to reach a decision that we believe is in the best interests of the country. During the debate members have been taunted by various pressure groups urging us to take one approach or another and appealing to our better instincts either to support or not to support the Bill. Strong cases have been made out by genuine people for support for the age of 16, and strong evidence has been shown against it. I urge the House to take to heart the speech we have just heard from the member for Waitotara. The House will be closely divided on the Bill, and I believe that it is not proper that the third reading should be allowed, in view of the close position. I further believe that considerable research is being done internationally and that New Zealand should require deeper study into the subject so that we know the best route to take. While I was in Australia I had some discussions with social workers and psychiatrists who have been working in the field, in particular Dr John Court and Dr Moyes. From my own reading, as the Bill has proceeded, I consider that the House has not had time to study the consequences of some of the research and to know how far the research has moved ahead of the findings of the Wolfenden commission, which originally urged the changes in the law. During the passage of the Bill I supported an amendment moved by the member for Napier calling for an independent commission to study the subject, and for the House to act on a properly researched paper. I regret that that was not agreed to. During the debate I have listened intently to some members who have responded to correspondence and to pressures they have received by way of correspondence from genuine Christians in the community. One thing that has struck me about the third reading debate is that people who have Christian convictions have come to a different conclusion about which way we should go. I listened particularly to the sincere speech the Minister of Education made when the matter was last before the House, and to the member for Sydenham and the member for Hamilton East. While I appreciate members' feelings of Christian love and compassion in trying to understand people's different characteristics-sexual or other-my own conviction comes from what Paul had to say to the Romans. Paul was the great exponent of Christian standards, and he said: " Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid." I quote from the Good News Bible, from the same chapter: “Give yourself to God as those who have been brought forth from death to life. Surrender your whole being to him to be used for righteous purposes. Sin must not be your master, for you do not live under the law but under God's grace." That standard was expounded by Paul. I say to my Christian friends who are members of the House, and who take a different route and come to a different conclusion, that I believe that we need to show real understanding of all people, irrespective of their differences-we are called to do that as politicians. However, I do not agree with the conclusions that some members have come to and the way in which they have advocated their Christian stand. We all know about the huge petition that came to the House. It is right that the public should tell politicians how they feel on important moral issues such as this. Some of us have been influenced one way or another by the size of the petition. Often, the minority can be right and the majority can be wrong. In the end the decision comes back to members, who must determine what they believe the interests of a nation to be when they consider any legislation, particularly the legislation before the House. I am concerned that there are real physiological and psychological problems because of the practice of homosexuality in this country and other countries. We need deeper research and more thorough knowledge of the matter. Despite all the time that the Bill has been before the House, members have not really come to grips with that issue. I oppose the third reading of the Bill. JIM GERARD (Rangiora): I was not going to speak in the debate tonight, so I shall be very brief. However, my conscience has told me that I should take part. I listened to the debate throughout the Committee stage, and I sat on the select committee and heard much of the evidence. I have not changed my mind. I polled my electorate, just as many members polled theirs. In my electorate, 80 percent of the 600 people polled were opposed to the Bill. I personally am totally opposed to setting the age of consent at 16 years. The reason I have risen to speak is that I listened intently to the speech made by my colleague the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. I do not agree with much of what he said, but I want to protect his right, or the right of any other member, to say it. The matter involves a conscience vote, and I regret the bitter attack launched upon that member. I believe that Parliament is entitled to hear what members have to say, whether others agree or disagree. I respect the sincerity of all members who have spoken. I am opposing the Bill, but I felt drawn into the debate. WINSTON PETERS (Tauranga): The debate tonight is truly " high noon" for all members of the House on both sides of the issue. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition said that the passage of the Bill would put New Zealand on a par with the remainder of the Western World. On the face of it, that seems to be a very compelling reason to support the legislation, but I wonder how many members in the House would follow that dictum in relation to defence policies and the grounds on which they are predicated in New Zealand at present. I am not making a political issue of the matter; I am just saying that if that dictum had any merit it would apply to many matters other than the legislation before the House tonight. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition said that the issue was capable of compromise and, like my bench mate the member for Fendalton, he believed that members could agree to a compromise on the age of 18 and satisfy all parties. I do not believe that to be so. Given the slim age differential, the case would have remained the same for both sides. I listened with great interest to the Minister of Education, who I understand has been trained in the clerical world and was a minister. He threw out a challenge to all members, and presumably the public at large, to produce any New Testament argument that would be evidence against the practice of homosexuality. TREVOR MALLARD: That's not correct. WINSTON PETERS: It is correct. The Minister of Education said that he could find no evidence in the New Testament against the practice of homosexuality. He said that the evidence in the Old Testament should not be used, because it had been overridden by the later document, the New Testament. That is the way I understood the argument, as did many correspondents who have written to me, and many who listened to the radio. If the Hansard record were to be checked I am sure my interpretation would be found to be fair and accurate. I do not claim to be a biblical scholar. Hon. RICHARD PREBBLE: The member doesn't claim to be a scholar. WINSTON PETERS: It does not matter how serious, how personal, or how close to one's conscience an issue might get, the Minister of Transport will always play politics, because he is a special creature-he does not have a conscience. I say that with some reserve, but I am supported in that view by Don Goodfellow, the people at East Town, the airline pilots, all the transport industry, and half the country. TREVOR DE CLEENE: The member's going a bit off the rails. WINSTON PETERS: I could be derailed over that comment if I applied it to any other member of the House, but I am right on course when it comes to the Minister. As a matter of interest, I studied the Hebrew language at university, and the text used was the Bible. I was fascinated by the comments made by the Minister of Education, not because I want to demonstrate any biblical knowledge, but because the evidence was so easy to find. The first evidence can be found in I Corinthians 6:9. In addition to the sin about which the verse speaks, there are some other sins that would have some members of the House rather concerned and worried, and which would also worry some people in the press gallery, some in the gallery, and some listening to the radio. The references can be found all through the New Testament. I do not know why a cleric who claims some knowledge of the Bible should say that the references did not exist, and should throw out a challenge in the House. Romans, chapter 1, verse 24, states: " Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves." Verse 26 states: " For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature." verse 27 states: " And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly. . .". The member for Palmerston North seems to be excited. Perhaps those words took him back to the halcyon days of his youth. I shall now detail the reasons for my opposition to the Bill. I was brought up in a small Maori settlement on the East Coast. I know that the people who will be damaged the most by the passage of the Bill will be the Maori youth. I believe I have just cause in defending their future and the future of children yet unborn. It is the way of society. One has only to look around the world to see who is at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder, and see what perversity is being performed upon them. I will not have that on my conscience tonight. I am astounded by the number of women who support the Bill. In my view the Bill is anti-women, because it makes them irrelevant. New Zealand has the capacity to escape the scourge of AIDS, but will not do so if the Bill is passed. It has been a custom with both parties that if the caucus is split 50:50 the status quo is retained until there is a clear majority either way. That is the one rule common to both parties. If a vote is taken on the issue tonight it will be almost 50:50 and members will have abandoned that principle. I do not want to make it a personal matter. I count the Deputy Leader of the Opposition as a friend of mine, along with other members on both sides of the House, and I do not care whether they like me or not. I remind the Deputy Leader of the Opposition of the famous statement made by Sir Winston Churchill: " The trouble with being on the side of right is that you keep so much dubious company." The petition against the Bill was signed by 15,700 people in the Tauranga electorate. I have been a victim of fraudulent signatures, and even if 10 percent or 20 percent of the signatures were false-and I do not believe they were-the number of people who signed the petition was still large. I shall not let those people down. Hon. RUSSELL MARSHALL (Minister of Education): I seek to correct a misrepresentation made in the previous speech: The member for Tauranga said that I had said in my speech last week that there was not one word in the New Testament against homosexuality. I quote from my Hansard the words I actually used: " I challenge the member and anybody who is opposed to the Bill to produce one word from our Lord that condemns homosexuality." I did go on to say: " I am not here to defend some of St. Paul's rather strange ideas about the sexuality of men and women. WINSTON PETERS (Tauranga): I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Mr SPEAKER: The particular Standing Order that the Minister of Education invoked specifically denies the right of debate. WINSTON PETERS: If the words quoted are what the Minister said - and I believe him I want to withdraw my comments and offer him an apology. Is that O. K.? Mr SPEAKER: Yes. PETER DUNNE (Ohariu): I move, That the question be now put. Hon. WHETU TIRIKATENE-SULLIVAN (Southern Maori): It would be difficult in 10 minutes to summarise what I said during the Committee stage in the more than a dozen speeches I made, and to say everything I want to say on the Bill. However, I shall try to do so, and I begin by referring to the Sunday News of 12 March 1979. An article in that newspaper headed " Do you, Peter, take this man" referred to a marriage that had taken place in Auckland between the Rev. Peter Alexander Smith and his homosexual partner Damian. The Rev. Smith was asked what his ministry was, and he replied that his most important activity was to move around the gay bars and clubs of Auckland. He also referred to the setting up of groups throughout the country into what I would call gay or homosexual caucuses. He said that they were established throughout the country, that church groups were also established, and that there were many pastors in other mainline churches. There have ben gay bars, ministries, clubs, and gay marriages in New Zealand since 1977. He pointed out that he had been married but it had not worked out-and members were told by the Gay Marriage Association, whose correspondence I have before me, that there are about 50,000 gay men in New Zealand who are married. He decided to opt out of the marriage expected of him by society, and married his partner at the time. I bring such facts to the attention of the House because members are somewhat somnambulant about the progress of the homosexual network in New Zealand, and about the fact that there are gay caucuses in the mainline churches, and in every profession-and I have not been associated with any profession in which there has not been one to my sure knowledge. The House is discussing a Bill that refers to a development that has occurred in New Zealand, following the progress in America. Members supporting the Bill have said that most of the mainline churches favour it. However, that is a claim for the politically naive, because the gay liberation movement has moved to have its members establish gay caucuses in every church. That is a simple reality, and I repeat that there are gay caucuses in every profession. When the House last debated the Bill, many members who supported it labelled themselves as Christians. They appeared to imply that there is sanction in the scriptures for homosexuality. That is incorrect, but time does not allow me to elaborate. I have the Bible before me, and if I had the time I would refer to it. I will leave it at that, but the Bible contains many specific references to homosexuality. Many members have said in the debate that it is virtually impossible to change human behaviour and patterns of sexual orientation. The New Testament explicitly refers to some members of the church at Corinth having been homosexual in orientation but changing after they learnt of Christ. That has continued to happen over the subsequent 1,000 years. I have witnessed this happening to my acquaintances and also to individuals whom I did not know at the time. Representations were made to the select committee by New Zealanders who are no longer homosexual. There is no denying that it is possible to change one's sexual orientation. I believe my observations give me the right to speak with some authority, but there is also the evidence of the many people who came before the select committee. Dr Delany, who has treated many ill homosexuals, pointed out that the very practice of sodomy creates the predisposition to disease. It is a practice in which there is an oppressor and an oppressed, and I am told - and I remind the House that as a social worker I once counselled homosexuals for some years before I came to the House, and I still do-that the pain to the passive or the receiving partner can be considerable. I am open to correction on that point by any member who can speak with some authority. However, I can pass on only what former homosexuals have told me. Much is said about the dichotomy. I have been assured by some who have been the passive partner that it is painful. I can only take their word. What about heterosexual women or heterosexual wives of homosexual husbands? I cannot think of anything more oppressive than to be sodomised by one's husband. The Bill has two revolutionary purposes: first, to establish for the first time in New Zealand that the homosexual practice of sodomy is a legitimate behaviour in the New Zealand life-style; and, second, to enshrine that legitimacy into New Zealand law. The Bill seeks to make a socio-political statement that was begun by the gay liberation movement in the early 1970s. That movement sought to have American law recognise sodomy as legitimate, normal, natural, and legal behaviour. It succeeded, but that success has been short-lived. After 10 years of gay liberation revolution in America, the law has been reversed by the Supreme Court of America, which ruled last week that homosexuals have no constitutional right to engage in sodomy. Why does Parliament want to legitimise sodomy in that way? I oppose the Bill and I oppose the legitimation that some members want to confer on that practice. The member for Tauranga expressed concern about those who are in the oppressed group, and I agree. My own concern is from a vested interest as a mother and a Maori member of Parliament. Maori boys are choice targets for cruising gay predators, whether Maori or non-Maori. I am concerned to represent them, and I regret that I see some members smiling at that concern. I speak with the knowledge of my case-load on the matter. A mother's instinct to protect her son caused her to stab fatally a member of the gay community who had tried to sodomise her 11-year-old boy. The mother was convicted and discharged. Members may or may not be familiar with those facts. My abiding concern continues to be for those young boys. In San Francisco I observed that the favourite subject of the highly promiscuous and predatory homosexual men were the indigenous boys-the Mexicans, the Puerto Ricans, and the blacks. Those boys made up the highest proportion of prostitutes. They were also significant among the ranks of the local unemployed. They needed money and the older men needed their kicks. If the House approves the Bill I shall hold its supporters culpable for the creation of a new business for unemployed Maori boys enticed into homosexual prostitution. New Zealand will become a Mecca for the affluent gay travel organisations from America and other continents. I have proof tonight in the House that already people are soliciting. They are writing overseas, preparing this side of the Pacific to receive on the suggestion of American travel agents. PETER NEILSON (Miramar): I move, That the question be now put. NORMAN JONES (Invercargill): It is 16 months since the Bill was first introduced by the member for Wellington Central. They have been 16 months of tactics. Within 4 months of the Bill's introduction a petition signed by 835,000 New Zealanders tried to show Parliament that New Zealanders did not want sodomy to be legalised at 16 years of age, or any age. Throughout that tactical fight those of us who are opposed to legalising sodomy at any age have stayed constant. On two or three occasions, had a vote been taken, the Bill could have been defeated. If it were not for connivance and agreements being made the Bill could have been defeated last Wednesday by 46 votes to 44 votes. Two Wednesdays previously it could have been defeated by four votes. I know, as well as the Minister of Transport knows, that tonight the Bill will be passed by 48 votes to 45, or 47 votes to 46, depending on who has not made up his or her mind. Irrespective of whether the Bill is passed, it will be a narrow majority. The House is evenly divided against itself. That is not the position that exists in New Zealand. There is no division amongst New Zealanders about the matter. Even though the vote will be won tonight that will not be the end of the matter. The House has heard a lot about compromise from the master of compromise - the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. I do not mind tactics-I am as good at them as anybody-but it is nonsense when a member says he voted the way he did against the closure because he was looking for compromise, when 14 hours earlier the House had defeated a compromise by 63 votes to 22 votes. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition said he waited until the last minute tonight for a compromise. He received his answer. The vote was 68:18, or something like that. There is never a compromise; there is no compromise on sodomy. It is either right or wrong, and everybody knows that it is wrong. Give the Deputy Leader of the Opposition eight alternatives and he will look for a ninth. That is typical. The House knows where he stands at present. He will vote for the Bill. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition said that he was looking for an honourable middle ground. At any stage during the passage of the Bill he could have gone to the member for Wellington Central and said: " There are 22 members of the House who are not satisfied with the way they voted for 16 years of age and are happy to vote for 18, 19, or 20 years of age. You join us and we'll have a better Bill." It does no good for the Deputy Leader of the Opposition to come to me and my people saying he wants an honourable compromise on sodomy, because to us age is irrelevant; it always has been and it always will be. The honourable compromise could have come from the member for Wellington Central, but, as the Deputy Leader of the Opposition said, she was greedy; she wanted all or nothing. She has it all, but it is not the end of the matter. The House is legalising sodomy at any age, and that is obnoxious. The 835,000 people who signed the petition will indicate to Parliament what they think about that. This is just the beginning of the matter, and members know it. Throughout the second reading and the Committee stage of the Bill the two main arguments of members who supported an age of consent of 16 years have been that legalising sodomy at 16 years of age will prevent the spread of AIDS amongst young consenting adults indulging in homosexual sex. Those supporting the Bill have also argued that the Bill must be passed to enable homosexuals to come into the open and seek medical treatment. Both of those arguments are fallacious on two counts. Whether or not the Bill is passed-whether or not anal intercourse between consenting adults is legalised-section 201 of the Crimes Act 1961 still applies. That section states: “Infecting with disease-Everyone is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years who, wilfully and without lawful justification or excuse, causes or produces in any other person any disease or sickness." The note reads: " As to a conviction of an offence under this section being a ground of divorce in Tokelau, see regulation 4(2)(e) of S. R. 1975/262." If the Bill is passed, as appears likely, that section of the Crimes Act will still have to be applied to persons knowing they have, or are carrying, the AIDS antibodies or any infection at all if, at 16 years of age, they indulge in anal intercourse legally with another consenting male-or with a 12-year-old, with consent, provided it was thought he was 16 years of age. That is a defence, but under the existing law they are still liable to a term of imprisonment not exceeding 14 years. That gives the lie to the homosexual lobby's plaint that sodomy must be legalised at 16 years of age to save people from AIDS. That is nonsense, and they know it. So much for the people infecting each other with AIDS; they will be doing it more quickly and legally if the Bill is passed, but they will still be liable under the Crimes Act. During the Committee stage the second main argument from those who supported the Bill was that if anal intercourse were legal-and in the Crimes Act it has been changed from being described as sodomy to being euphemistically called anal intercourse, but there is no difference-a homosexual could come out into the open and obtain the relevant treatment without breaking the law. About 400 or 500 people in New Zealand have AIDS antibodies, and 24 people have full AIDS. There have been 9 deaths, and those 24 people who have contracted AIDS will also die. In Australia 109 people have died from AIDS, yet 12 months ago the number was only half that. AIDS is not a notifiable disease until it is in the full syndrome stage, or until somebody dies from it. What about the Hippocratic oath? Hundreds of homosexuals are receiving treatment from medical practitioners who keep the complaint confidential in the clinics and in the surgeries. That gives the lie to the second argument that homosexuals must come out of the closet to obtain medical treatment freely and confidentially. They are receiving that treatment now, so it is nonsense to claim that sodomy between consenting adults has to be legalised so that they can be free to seek medical treatment. I want to return to the petition, and to say that if it has been ignored the next petition will not be; it will be computerised in the electorates of every member of Parliament voting for the Bill. Adult voters will be asked if they want the Bill to be repealed, and that will be made an election issue-make no mistake about it. According to their voting records, 15 members of Parliament voting for the Bill have majorities ranging between 2,229 in the case of the member or West Auckland down to 394 for the member for Wairarapa. NEILL MORRISON (Pakuranga): The Bill has been debated now for about 1½ years. An Hon. Member: Too long! NEILL MORRISON: Yes, it has been too long. It has been a fascinating insight into people's personalities and into human nature. Many people on both sides of the issue have received threats. I have received threats, and I find that most unfortunate. I commend the member for Wellington Central for being brave enough to introduce the Bill into the House; it took some courage. I consider some of the abuse she has received from people who claim to be Christians to be totally despicable. Many people on both sides of the argument could do much soul searching. As have all members, I have given the issue deep thought over a long time. I know that every member has approached the Bill with a serious attitude. During the past few months I have penned a few lines of my impressions of the Bill and its progress. For some days I sat in on the committee hearings and heard submissions from the public. I heard arguments from both sides, and I was deeply moved by many of the submissions. It is one of the dilemmas that has faced mankind throughout history. It is the dilemma of change, the dilemma of conviction over reason, the dilemma of modern perceptions over a heritage of Christian teachings stretching back for more than 2,000 years. The Bill seeks to put right what many people see as a wrong; it seeks to put right what many people see as an injustice; it seeks to put right what many see as a denial of human rights; it seeks to put right a law that many people would claim was made in medieval times and with medieval attitudes; and it seeks to put right a law put through the House of Commons in the dead of night more than 100 years ago. It seeks to set free from guilt and loneliness those people in our society who have a different sexual preference; and it seeks to change the attitude of the majority to see the minority as equal and normal. The Bill seeks to make logical what many people would claim to be the illogical. The paradox is that humankind is more emotional than logical, and history is littered with proof of that. Since its birth humankind has struggled to keep an equal balance. To deny an emotion is futile, yet to deny logic is futile; it gives humankind the rationale to plan its destiny. However, there is a dimension to humankind that is as irrefutable as logic-it is the dimension of faith. Faith is the foundation upon which millions of people have relied through troubled times. Faith comes under several names and religions; ours is called Christianity. Christianity is the rock upon which our people base their faith. There are many forces in life, and they have all been traversed in the Bill. All those forces need a balanced approach. Henry Kissinger once said: " Society is balanced on a knife edge", and we have had many examples in the past century of exactly that. Thousands of New Zealanders see the balance as being threatened. Thousands of average people who have no real argument one way or the other on the issue feel concerned that there will be an upset in the balance of something that has been built up during many thousands of years. The broad spectrum of people in our society perceive a gradual shift away from a society of reasonable standards. Many thousands of those people are quietly worried. After 18 months of debate, at an estimated cost in time of more than $6 million, the Bill now depends upon a few votes-possibly one, two, three, or four. I believe that an issue such as this, which can fill the galleries and have people waiting outside to get in, is too finely balanced to be passed tonight. A Bill such as this needs to be passed with a good majority. I oppose the Bill, because, fundamentally, I believe that humankind needs a purpose in life. Some would say that the purpose of homosexuality is human pleasure and love. I accept that, and I respect it. However, if I am a member of Parliament for any reason it is to lay a legacy for my children, and their children in the century to come. I do not believe that the Bill will do that. Members are elected to lay a heritage for a fruitful, purposeful, balanced society, which will be carried through to the next century and the century following that. If the Bill is passed it will erode the very foundation upon which a balanced society is possible. If there is no purpose to life, there is steady decay. I oppose the Bill. I know that many of my constituents do not agree with my stand, and I respect their views. They can make a decision regarding my fate at the next election, and I welcome that opportunity. I want the people of my electorate to know exactly where I stand. I do not believe that the Bill will achieve anything. It will not lead to a productive future society. CLIVE MATTHEWSON (Dunedin West): I move, That the question be now put. Mr SPEAKER: Undoubtedly the debate has moved away from a third reading debate, and is becoming a repetition of the second reading debate. However, the member for Papakura has called repeatedly, and I will allow him the call. After that I must follow the practice I have adopted in all debates: when members move away from the subject of the debate it is an obvious signal to the Chair that the debate should be closed. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON (Papakura): I want to make a few passing comments that relate to the proceedings during the Committee stage. In regard to an earlier comment made tonight, I observe the statement made by a leading British politician who said that consensus politics is " the process of avoiding the very issues that have to be resolved". That is all I want to say about consensus, except to add that I absolutely accept that point of view so succinctly and accurately put. The Bill gives the wrong message, particularly to young people. I am sure that thousands of teenagers and young adolescents have been confused by the proceedings of Parliament during the past 18 months. That would be especially so had they listened to the proceedings of Parliament during the Committee stage. If the Bill is passed it will create unwarranted pressures and unthought-of fears in our schools, technical institutes, community colleges, universities and teachers' colleges. I say that against a background of more than 10 years in secondary teaching, as a member of Parliament, and for nearly 6 years as Minister of Education. I believe that it will drive a wedge between teachers and pupils and among parents, teachers, and pupils. None of the chuckling from the member for Wellington Central, in particular, will dissuade from that point of view those of us who have opposed the measure for 18 months. As any master in a boys' boarding school will know, it is the kind of thing to which the honourable member for Southern Maori quite properly referred earlier. I endorse that by saying that having been a boarding school master at St. Stephen's College, which was set up by the Anglican Church in the 1840s primarily for Maori and Polynesian young men, I consider that the member for Southern Maori is absolutely right, and the House would profit from listening to her cry of warning for she is - in a sense, sadly-right on this matter. I could report that in the Committee stage we canvassed the idea that the Bill, having been introduced by a Government Whip-the member for Wellington Central-was essentially an exercise in diversion; but, having alluded to that, I shall not dwell on the matter, for I believe it to have been well canvassed in the Committee. My final comment is made against the background of the announcement made by the Minister of Police today that there will have to be an increase in the number of uniformed men and women in the New Zealand Police. There is no argument with the step she has taken as such, but there is much debate about whether the step is big enough. I find it ironic that a few hours later Parliament is contemplating the passage of a Bill that would strike at the very heart of the principles of law and order in the community. It is as simple as that if one wants to view it from that perspective. In outlining that perspective I add that the first duty of Parliament is to preserve law and order, and it is irrational to move within a few hours to the point at which Parliament contemplates passing a measure that would undermine law and order in the community. This is a time when many people are worried about the safety of their person and their property. My point of view is similar to that of the member for Papakura, in that it is inconceivable, given the anxieties, fears, and concerns that the Commissioner of Police warns about, that we should be contemplating giving licence to a practice that has repelled our predecessors for many decades. There is a simple rule in Government-and having been in Government for some years I can tell the member for West Auckland, to name one, that it is a good rule, which he and a few of his colleagues should have insisted upon: “If in doubt, don't". As we come to the point of the division, that is a simple but profound rule that the Prime Minister and his Cabinet colleagues, who for a few months yet have the final responsibility by the weight of their majority in Parliament, should heed: " If in doubt, don't." ANNETTE KING (Horowhenua): I move, That the question be now put. Mr SPEAKER: I have decided to accept the motion, and the House can decide for itself whether it wishes the debate to continue or to terminate. Motion agreed to. The House divided on the question, That this Bill be now read a third time. Ayes 49 Anderton; Austin, M. E.; Bassett; Batchelor; Boorman; Burke; Butcher; Caygill; Clark; Cullen; de Cleene; Dillon; Douglas; Dunne; Elder; Fraser; Gair; Gerbic; Goff; Gregory; Hercus; Hunt; Isbey; Jeffries; Keall; King; Lange; McLean; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Maxwell, R. K.; Moore; Moyle; Neilson; Northey; O'Flynn; O'Regan; Palmer; Prebble; Scott; Shields; Shirley; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Tizard; Wetere; Wilde. Tellers: Mallard; Woollaston. Noes 44 Angus; Austin, H. N.; Austin, W. R.; Banks; Birch; Bolger; Burdon; Colman; Cooper; Cox; East; Falloon; Friedlander; Gerard; Graham; Gray; Jones; Kidd; Knapp; Luxton; McClay; McKinnon; McTigue; Marshall, D. W. A.; Maxwell, R. F. H.; Morrison; Muldoon; Peters; Richardson; Rodger; Smith; Storey; Talbot; Tapsell; Terris; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Townshend; Upton; Wallbank; Wellington; Young, T. J.; Young, V. S. Tellers: Braybrooke; Lee. Majority for: 5 Bill read a third time.[A disturbance having taken place in the gallery, a member of the public was removed on the instruction of the Speaker.]

IRN: 7845
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_homosexual_law_reform_bill_third_reading_2_july_1986.html
TITLE: Homosexual Law Reform Bill - third reading (2 July 1986)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 2 July 1986
YEAR: 1986
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 2 July 1986, New Zealand Parliament. PHILIP BURDON (Fendalton): I move, That the order of the day for the third reading of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill be discharged, and that the Bill be recommitted for consideration of the amendments set out in Supplementary Order Paper 30. I move the motion in order to give the House another chance to reconsider its earlier decision regarding the age of consent, which, at 16, is too young. I suggest that the House should raise the age to 18 years. Hon. DAVID CAYGILL (Minister of Trade and Industry): I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I do not want to challenge your calling of the member for Fendalton. However, I had earlier indicated my wish to raise a point of order in relation to the matter. I rose and called a point of order at the same time as the member for FendaltonMr SPEAKER: The matter does need sorting out because of the contentious and highly emotional issues that are involved. First, a member rising improperly at the wrong time to raise a point of order does not have any pre-emption over another member who rises at the proper time. The member cannot say that he established any claim when he improperly gave notice of his intention to rise. That is quite clear. Secondly, as I had been notified-as has every other member of the House-of the nature of the supplementary order papers, it became inevitable that I should be placed in the invidious position of having to choose one or the other because I was not in ignorance of the contents of those supplementary order papers. I had to make a decision on which one served the greater interests of the House; I was not the slightest bit concerned about any sectional or factional interests. One of the supplementary order papers would have provided for the reconsideration of the age of consent in a limited sphere-not through all of the Bill, but only in part of it. Undoubtedly, that procedural action would have left those who wanted the consideration to be right across the Bill feeling frustrated. The supplementary order paper whose supporter I called achieved the objective of the member who was not called, but also added to it an ability for the House to consider the age of consent over all areas under discussion. Over all, therefore, the ability of the House to consider the whole matter is enhanced by my having accepted the call of the member for Fendalton. That was why I did it. I have no intention of reversing my decision, because I am confident that the decision I made advances the purposes of the House more satisfactorily than the other option would. I am aware that certain difficulties and problems arose during the debate on the Committee stage of the Bill. I have no authority to order the Committee, nor would I wish to have that authority, but, as one of the few members of the House who will be sitting on the side line while the Bill goes to the Committee, may I presume to offer a procedural suggestion to the Committee that might promote a more orderly discussion. I suggest that if the Committee in its wisdom thought it advisable to allow all the amendments on the supplementary order paper to be debated as one, because they are so closely interrelated, the Committee could then divide on each of the issues in the supplementary order paper individually at the end. I make that suggestion because past experience suggests that that might reduce some of the rather intense discussion on procedural motions. The matter is, however, entirely in the hands of the Committee. The House divided on the question, That the order of the day for the third reading of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill be discharged, and that the Bill be recommitted for consideration of the amendments set out in Supplementary Order Paper 30. Ayes 22 Austin, M. E.; Batchelor; Boorman; Colman; Cox; East; Gair; Graham; Gregory; Luxton; McKinnon; McLean; Marshall, D. W. A.; O'Flynn; O'Regan; Richardson; Smith; Storey; Upton; Young, T. J. Tellers: Burdon; Townshend. Noes 63 Anderton; Angus; Austin, H. N.; Austin, W. R.; Banks; Bassett; Birch; Braybrooke; Burke; Butcher; Caygill; Cooper, Cullen; Dillon; Douglas; Dunne; Elder; Falloon; Fraser; Friedlander; Gerard; Goff; Gray; Hercus; Hunt; Isbey; Jeffries; Jones; Keall; Kidd; King; Knapp; Lange; Lee; McClay; McTigue; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Maxwell, R. F. H.; Maxwell, R. K.; Morrison; Moyle; Neilson; Northey; Palmer; Peters; Prebble; Rodger; Scott; Shields; Shirley; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Tapsell; Terris; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Tizard; Wellington; Wetere; Woollaston; Young, V. S. Tellers: Mallard; Wilde. Majority against: 41 Motion negatived. Hon. DAVID CAYGILL (Minister of Trade and Industry): I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think I know the answer to the question I am about to put to you, but it might assist the House if I asked it nevertheless. Is it now open to me to move the motion I previously attempted to move? PHILIP BURDON: No, and the member knows it. Hon. DAVID CAYGILL: I wish the House to have an authoritative ruling, and not an expression of opinion either from me or from other members. Mr Speaker, is it open to me to move the motion I foreshadowed in my earlier attempt to seek, on a point of order, the Bill's recommittal in order to consider Supplementary Order Paper 72? Mr SPEAKER: No it is not, because the wording of the motion is that the order of the day be discharged, and the matter is finished once that has been decided on any particular day. It was to be discharged for a particular purpose. If the third reading is not completed tonight, and the Bill is set down for further consideration of the third reading on a subsequent day that same motion can be moved on that day, because the question relates to whether to proceed with the matter in the way laid down on the Order Paper that day. Third Reading. FRAN WILDE (Wellington Central): I move, That this Bill be now read a third time. During the Committee stage there was the most torrid debate the House has ever heard, certainly in my experience here, and I suspect also in the experience of most members of Parliament. In the end it became not torrid but just plain boring, because members heard repeatedly from a small group of members, stale old arguments that had lost their colour and impact. Many members believe that those arguments were put before the House simply to delay the Bill's progress. It was interesting to note during the Committee stage of the Bill that the public grew more and more aware of the delay in progress, and both the public and the news media commented on the stonewalling tactics that were used. It is important to comment on that, because those tactics show the mentality of some of the members opposed to the Bill. Many members who spoke in opposition to the Bill during the Committee stage did not present arguments, or any factual evidence. They did not refer to anything rational, or to any facts on which this Parliament, and other Parliaments in the Westminster system, normally try to base sound and rational decisions. Members heard merely a long line of histrionics and scaremongering from those members who opposed the Bill. I shall speak on some of the issues put before the House over the past few months, and give a summary of some of the arguments presented. One of the main arguments was that the Bill is offensive to God and religion. That is an important argument, because although some people believe New Zealand is now only nominally Christian others believe that New Zealand is indeed a Christian country. Since the Bill was introduced, members have discovered that many people believe that New Zealand's Legislature, its Parliament, and its system of laws should be based not on the legal system now being evolved, which this Parliament has tried to strengthen during the past 1½ years, but on the Old Testament of the Bible. The problem with that argument was that it was not sustained in the House, or in the select committee hearings that preceded the second reading and the Committee stage. At those select committee hearings, and subsequently in newspapers around the country, representatives of mainstream churches came out in favour of the Bill. They did not necessarily do that because they themselves support homosexual behaviour, or because they themselves are gay. They did it because they believe that our country should be run as a secular State, and that all religious and ethical beliefs should be given equal weight in the eyes of the law. A law cannot be based on a single narrow and rigid interpretation of the Old Testament such as we heard in those arguments. I must admit that after hearing those arguments I worry for the future of New Zealand if the Bill is defeated. New Zealand would be in trouble if the House were to continue to enact such laws in future. Tonight I ask all members present, and all of those who intend to vote on the third reading, to bear in mind the nature of the opposition to the Bill and the kind of argument put forward. If the Bill fails it will be only one in a long line of social repressions inflicted on the people in the name of religion. New Zealand is well past the time of the persecutions of the Middle Ages, which were carried out by the church in which I was brought up as a child. Many other arguments were brought forward in the Committee stage, one in particular revolving around the health issues that have emerged in the past year or so-particularly in relation to the growing problem of AIDS. The problem for those who presented such arguments against the Bill was that they failed to read the evidence and to listen to those who have some expert knowledge, who are working in the field, and who know what they are talking about. The problem of AIDS is a terrible one, and I found it astonishing and very sad that some people in our community wish that homosexuals would contract AIDS and die of it because they see that as a punishment from God. When the Bill was before the select committee we heard evidence from Dr Barker of the Department of Health and from other departmental officials who told us that suppressing law reform would not stop the passage of AIDS. The committee heard from numerous other people who are involved in the fight against AIDS, such as the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. Members will have read in this morning's paper a statement made by Kate Leslie, who chairs the AIDS Foundation. She said that it is imperative that the Bill be passed and that it be passed with the age of 16 as the age of consent, because those young people who would be discriminated against if the age of consent were raised were the ones most at risk. The Bill is now before the House for a third reading at a time when the whole population, not just the gay population, is at risk if a decent and effective public health campaign cannot be mounted. I ask members, before they go into the Noes lobby against the Bill, to think very carefully about the effect that not passing the Bill will have on the campaign that the AIDS Foundation and the Department of Health are trying to set up to stop the spread of AIDS. AIDS is not a disease that is confined to the gay community. It entered New Zealand largely as it did the other Western countries of the United States and Europe - that is, through the gay community-but that is certainly not its genesis, and it is certainly not contained therein. Anyone who has more than one sexual partner at any time runs the risk of being exposed to AIDS. What is more, if we cannot educate, if we cannot run clinics, if we cannot say to people that it is O. K. to be homosexual and that they will not be prosecuted by the law because they are gay, we will not be able to get those people who are at risk to come forward and be tested. They will simply go back into the closet where they have been for the past 100 years, and there they will stay. I have received a great deal of mail during the campaign to pass the Bill. Some of the letters have been very moving. I shall read tonight one of the more recent ones, because it sums up what the problems will be if the repression continues. I received this letter in my office a couple of months ago. " My words will have more meaning by telling you that I am a police officer living and working in a provincial town in New Zealand. I am 20 years old and I am gay. I have been prompted to write this having just read in the local paper that I am indecent and offensive because of my sexuality. It angers me that the community I love and work for will despise me only after they find out I am gay, especially when being gay has given me special qualities to make me a good police officer. It has been a hard decision to make to leave my job. Had I been accepted for what I am things might have been different, but when your won sanity becomes a choice between denying your sexuality or losing a career, there is only one thing that I can change." That letter sums it up. Gay people are not gay by choice, and, even if they were, the House has no right to deny them that choice of sexuality. Gay people are gay, just as heterosexuals are heterosexual. We, as individual members of the New Zealand Parliament, have no right to say to people that they must not practise their sexuality, which is an integral part of their being. During the campaign I had contact with parents of gay children who had committed suicide. I had contact with many sad families of gay people who said they wished they had known before it was too late. I ask the House tonight not to make it too late, and to vote for the third reading. GRAEME LEE (Hauraki): The comment made by the member for Wellington Central, the introducer of the Bill, that homosexuals are born that way, is incorrect. She could not offer any scientific evidence for her statement. In fact, the evidence research over many years shows clearly that homosexuals are not born that way; it is learnt behaviour, which can therefore be unlearnt. Throughout the debate the opponents of the Bill have concentrated on the behaviour. We have attempted to judge people as people. It is a fundamental fact, and the House should once again hear the truth, that homosexuals are not born that way. The member for Wellington Central accused the Opposition of stonewalling the debate, but the House should know, and it should be recorded, that the Opposition has employed every means at its disposal to oppose the Bill, because it has the mandate of 835,000 New Zealanders in the largest petition ever submitted to Parliament. It is on the clear mandate of those people - and it would have been 1,000,000 people if time had permitted that target to be reached-that Opposition members have opposed the Bill, and will continue to oppose it. We call upon the House to seal the Bill's doom by voting against this repugnant Bill and throwing it out. If there were any doubt about the commitment of the people who signed the petition, that commitment has been further tested in the past few days. In Te Atatu 600 people have been canvassed in a comprehensive assessment; 52 percent said they had signed the petition, but 83 percent said they would sign it today. That is a 30 percent increase in support of the petition. That is the strength behind the petition, which, its supporters have told the House, is 2½ times greater than anything else brought before the House. It is possibly the world's largest petition on a per capita basis. It was an unequivocal declaration that New Zealanders did not want anything to do with the Bill. Parliament knows that it has before it the clearest possible expression of the wishes of the nation. The petition was attacked on every front, without result, by the people supporting the Bill. It emerged unscathed, and it will always stand up because it has been found in the Auckland Star to be viable. Indeed, that particular assessment affirmed that the gay petition was valid. I also record, in the context of the accusation of stonewalling, that those who oppose the Bill were gagged several times. The gagging began in the select committee, with an attempt by the chairman to hold back the proper course of the Bill. It continued in the House, with the Standing Orders being employed to stop the proper process of the debate. That was done by the Government-and I except those who have consistently and courageously opposed the Bill-which has aligned itself politically with the Bill. It should be written into the annals of the House that the Government sought through its numbers to exclude a proper clause by clause consideration of the Bill. Members have had to discuss the 2 parts-9 clauses-in a limited-time debate, with 21 amendments being offered. It was entirely wrong. What emerged from the Committee stage, and what underscores this evil Bill, is that it attempts to make wrong right. There is not the slightest doubt that the people of this country believe the Bill to be entirely wrong. The construction of the legislation makes it intrinsically wrong, and it is wrong in every context. The Bill tries to make homosexuality acceptable, lawful, and viable as a future life-style. That is not acceptable. Even in overseas countries where there has been liberalisation - and I refer to the English law, which was used in several arguments and misunderstood-there is limited liberalisation. It is still, in essence, a law for consenting adults in private only. It is still seen to be wrong. In the past 2 days the United States Supreme Court has stated that homosexual behaviour between consenting adults is wrong. The Opposition believes that it is morally wrong, because the passing of the Bill would remove the offence and a barrier to other moral lapse and decline. It is wrong because it is unnatural; it is wrong because it attacks the family, and, indeed, it puts the family at tremendous risk. The mover of the Bill also said that the accusation that the Bill was an offence before God and man was entirely wrong. I have said in the House, and I stand by it, that the Bill is an abomination to God and man. I say that because I believe that the biblical teaching on the matter is abundantly clear. What the member for Wellington Central has said to the House tonight should shock every New Zealander. She asked if we were to return to the Middle Ages and to bow to repressive religion. She implied by that comment that she has no commitment to the Christian faith. She implied that she believes that the Christian faith has no relevance to New Zealand and to the House, yet the laws of the House are based on the Christian faith. I believe that every New Zealander listening to the debate and hearing those words would have been shocked. New Zealanders will now know-if there was any doubt in their minds-that the mover of the Bill is wrong, and that what she has said is wrong. The member for Wellington Central spoke about AIDS and heterosexual incidence of it. Of course heterosexuals will get AIDS when bisexuals make up part of the sexual group that accounts for more than 80 percent of those who spread AIDS. Opposition members believe that we must not pass the Bill, and we must not take action that would logically increase the incidence of AIDS in the community. How, in the name of common sense and sanity, can anyone have brought before the House and the nation at this time a Bill that will increase the incidence of AIDS in this country through an increase in homosexual behaviour? That it would increase has been attested to in San Francisco and Great Britain over the past decade. The passing of the Bill would do just that; New Zealand would have much more homosexual activity, with an increased risk of AIDS. Members are considering the worst killer disease known to man, yet the member for Wellington Central is frivolous enough to say that that is not the point and that it is a matter of heterosexuality versus homosexuality. Members are being asked to pass this Bill as a means of containing the worst killer disease known to man. It is incredible that such an argument could be used in the House. I was particularly pleased that the human rights provision was eliminated from the Bill. I believe that the Bill should be torn up. GEOFF BRAYBROOKE (Napier): I was misrepresented in the previous speech when the member asserted that the Bill was a Government, or Labour Party, Bill. That is incorrect. It is a private member's Bill. I remind the House that several members of the Government have consistently voted against the Bill. Hon. RUSSELL MARSHALL (Minister of Education): I think it could be fairly said that, just as most Government members generally support the legislation, most National Opposition members oppose it. I want to say again that I support the legislation in its entirety, in spite of the fact that we have had months of filibuster from the other side. I support the age of consent being 16 years. I acknowledge that in the end it will be a close run thing whether we manage to achieve that. Anyone who has studied adult behaviour and children's behaviour knows that adult behaviour is governed very much by early childhood experiences. It is not possible for an adult to change his or her sexual orientation, and indeed it is not easily possible to change much of our behaviour. We are, as adults, very much more than most of us recognise, products of our earliest years. I do not know what the causes are, or how these things come to be, and nobody is sure of that, but we are talking about people who grow into a particular kind of sexual orientation. I want to say a little more about the attitude of the Church, but before I do I shall make reference to some of the comments made during the long Committee stage about education, schools, and the relationship of the legislation to that environment. It has been suggested in some quarters that it would be possible-if the Bill were to be passed-for people to force homosexual behaviour on young boys at school. That is not true, and it certainly would not be true if the Bill were to be passed. It is just as illegal for homosexual behaviour to be forced on a young person at school as it is now for heterosexual behaviour. It is just as illegal for under-age homosexual activity as it is for under-age heterosexual activity. The clarity of the debate has been helped not one whit by those who have sought to exaggerate what the Bill sets out to do. I shall concentrate most of my deliberations on the rather presumptuous remarks made, not for the first time in the debate, by the member for Hauraki, who is presumed to speak for God and scripture. I remind the House that there have been a great number of people, official representatives of the churches no less, as well as countless Christian people, who have supported the legislation. It is not possible for anyone in the House, let alone an opponent of the Bill, to say: “God says this Bill is wrong." What I cannot comprehend about opponents of the legislation is the people who seek to describe other people as un-Christian. I would not dare, or have the temerity, to describe my friend the member for Hauraki as un-Christian. I take it very poorly that he should so describe supporters of the Bill. The member may be able to find scriptural records in Leviticus and elsewhere in the Old Testament. I challenge him, and anybody who is opposed to the Bill, to produce one word from our Lord that condemns homosexuality. I ask members to tell me how within the spirit of Christ it is possible to oppose the Bill. Of course they cannot oppose it. I have been brought up to believe that the Christian spirit of compassion, love, and warmth is not to reject other people even if we disagree with their behaviour and even if we condemn that behaviour. I am troubled that the member should take it upon himself, as numbers of his colleagues have done, to presume to speak on behalf of our Lord and to tell the people that they are wrong and evil, and to say what will happen to them. Nobody knows what will happen. I do not know what view the member for Hauraki holds on life after death, and I guess none of us know until we get there. I tell the member that when I asked a question about what is important in life, it is not how many people I have condemned, not how many people I have described as sinful, and not how many people I have cut off and said are not worthy of my time because they are criminal. Is it surely not more a basis for Christian judgment that one ask how loving people were to those who did not agree with them, how warm and compassionate they were to those people, even if they felt they were wrong? One might also ask how patronising or unpatronising one has been. There has been very little of the Christian spirit in those people who have spoken in opposition to the Bill. I want to make a claim on behalf of all those good Christian people, men and women of the clergy and laity, who have spoken in favour of the legislation; all those people who claim-utterly consistent with the main thrust of the biblical record - that the Bill is indeed within the spirit of Christ. The member for Hauraki can quote texts from Leviticus, but I thought the New Testament was the new way. We have grown out of Old Testament ways. I am not here to defend some of Saint Paul's rather strange ideas about the sexuality of men and women, or those people who came to the committee and to the House, and who have sought to follow the spirit of Christ, who have said that Leviticus is inconsistent with the spirit of the Bill. I am sure that there are many people who have been saddened to hear men-and it has always been men-whom they know well criticising them very directly. Everyone in the House knows and is known to male adult homosexuals. Many of us do not know who those male homosexuals are. Many people would now be scared to acknowledge their adult male homosexuality to people they know. I am absolutely certain that every one of the severest critics of the Bill knows, and knows well, adult homosexuals, without even knowing who they are. Those people who have criticised the Bill stand condemned for rejecting much more than they realise people who would value their compassion and friendship. What concerns me is not only the bigotry but also the hatred that has been engendered during the course of the debate; the vitriolic mail that people have received; and the extraordinary things that people have claimed will happen. I would have hoped that by the 1980s we had become a mature society that can accept other people as they are, accept their differences, and realistically face up to the fact that an adult's sexual preference is almost certainly unable to be changed. We are not saying that people as adult males and females cannot practise heterosexual activity. The critics have not volunteered to be celibate for the rest of their lives, but they are determined that the people whose given orientation is different will be celibate for the rest of their lives. What kind of arrogant nonsense and impertinence allows us to come to that view? How do we govern? We do not govern by the number of people who sign a petition. We govern as a House of Representatives - although not very representative; we are mostly middle-aged males who seem to have the greatest difficulty with the Bill-and we are supposed to represent the country. We should not govern by public opinion and by the numbers of people who write in and say they will or will not vote for us, according to our vote on the Bill. Having learnt about, studied, and thought about the matter as carefully as we can we should govern not on the basis of bigotry or on what we feel but on what we have taken the trouble to read and to learn about the matter. Some people think that the Bill will ensure that people can change their sexual orientation. How many people do the member for Hauraki, the member for Invercargill, the member for Whangarei, or any of the other opponents actually know who have changed their sexual orientation? It is virtually impossible to change it. Some people think that we will make more male homosexuals, as if, once the Bill is passed, all of us who are adult males will suddenly turn into rampant and promiscuous male homosexuals. I have not the faintest interest in becoming a male homosexual, and I suspect that applies to most if not all members. I do not think that many people will suddenly find themselves a new freedom and change their orientation. Some people seem to be scared that it will become compulsory, and that once the Bill is passed they will have to show their manliness by saying they are male homosexuals. That is not what the Bill will do. The Bill will not change anybody's personality-unfortunately, in some cases; it will not change anybody. GEOFF BRAYBROOKE (Napier): Members have listened to what I consider to be a sincere speech from the Minister of Education. He eloquently put the case for the Bill, and one would not be surprised, because he is an ordained Minister of the Methodist Church. I would not in any way attempt to clash with him on matters theological. However, he mentioned one matter that needs to be challenged. He said that we should love the sinner. Nobody who professes to be a Christian would argue with that. What he did not say, but hinted at, was that we should also love the sin, and that is where I part company with him. He wants us to love the sinner and the sin. In my view and in the view of many other people, homosexuality and sodomy have been sins for generations. Sodomy has been considered to be an act of gross indecency throughout the world, not only by Christian people but by people of other great faiths, such as Hindus and Muslims. My colleague pointed out, as did the member for Wellington Central, that the Bill has also divided the nation, cities, churches. The proof is that it has divided political parties and, I suspect, even families. It has been one of the most agonisingly, divisive Bills ever to appear before Parliament. I am sorry that the first National Opposition speaker attempted to make small political capital by making it appear that the Labour Party was in favour of the Bill while the National Party was against it. That is plainly not true. During the Committee stage the House considered a motion not to report the Bill back. To be fair, it was the brain-child of the member for New Plymouth, and I supported it. Four National Opposition members voted not to go along with the motion. They voted to continue the Bill. The House should know who those four National Opposition members were-the member for Selwyn, the member for Raglan, the member for Rodney, and the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. It ill behoves anybody in the House to try to pretend that the Bill is a Labour Party Bill. It is not. It is a private member's Bill introduced by the member for Wellington Central-and it was her right to do so. A matter that became clear during the Committee stage was that those who support the Bill and the homosexual community are definite that they want homosexuality to be accepted by society as being normal. In the past year I have put down a written question in the House asking how many homosexuals are in prison. It appears that those in prison are those who committed acts of gross indecency in public places or with small children. It is rare indeed - and I know of no cases-for policemen to creep up to keyholes to look at what is going on in private houses. Homosexual people want society to accept them as normal. They want to put a cloak of respectability upon their activities. They want to be able to say to the world that their so-called orientation is right, proper, and normal. I am confident that I speak for most of the citizens of Napier. I do not pretend to speak for all of them, but I am sure I speak for the majority - and that is part of my job in the House-in saying that they do not want a Bill that legalises sodomy. The religious angle has been mentioned by the previous speaker. It is true that the churches are divided. The church to which I owe an allegiance does not support the Bill. The leaders of my church do not support it. Trevor Mallard: Some of the leaders of our church don't. GEOFF BRAYBROOKE: The member for Hamilton West will have his opportunity to speak. I did not interrupt the previous speaker and I ask the member for the same courtesy. The Catholic Church is opposed to the Bill and I would be happy to table a letter, which was discussed during the Committee stage, in which Cardinal Williams himself opposed the Bill. The Salvation Army, which is a strong Christian church, has also opposed the Bill. The House should know that there is another side to the coin. It would be a tragedy if the Bill were to become law. As I said earlier, it would give homosexuality a cloak of respectability. Young people, and, I suppose, old people, would consider that what is legal must be right. They would be misled into thinking that it is O. K. to follow a homosexual orientation should they wish. It has been said in the House that there will be no sudden explosion of homosexual activities. That is conjecture. It could well be right, but it could also be wrong. In Western countries where the law has been liberalised there has been a large increase in homosexual activity. One only has to go to Holland, London, New York, or San Francisco to see what happens when such laws are liberalised. Homosexuality has become almost an industry, with homosexual bars, baths, meeting houses, and even homosexual churches where they go through some form of marriage to one another. That is considered to be normal in those states. I have consistently opposed the Bill. I admit that I do so on moral grounds and from my experience as a member of the armed forces for many years. [Interruption.] Do not worry, we have them there as well. I have seen how homosexual people act when they do not get their own way. I attended two public meetings in Lower Hutt and witnessed the disgusting behaviour of a large group of Wellington homosexuals, when those who opposed them were howled down, and when a Salvation Army minister who wanted to lead the meeting with a prayer was ridiculed with blasphemies, jeered at, howled at, mocked at, and screamed at. Those people were not nice, gay, oppressed people. Such people want their own way and if they do not get it, look out. The House will decide on this matter, and that is right and proper. I want to close by saying that I am firmly convinced that if the Bill becomes law there will be a cry of outrage throughout the land. It will cost some members their seats, and so be it-we all accept that probability. I also prophesy that after the next election the Bill, if it succeeds tonight, will be repealed. PAUL EAST (Rotorua): It is curious that while I have to disagree with much of what the previous speaker has said I will probably find myself in the same lobby as he is in when I vote. I congratulate the Minister of Education on an excellent contribution to the debate. The previous speaker represents the city of Napier. He boldly told the House how consistently he has always vigorously opposed homosexuality, yet many of us know that when he was trying to gain a seat in Pakuranga he told the people there that he would be happy to sponsor legislation to make homosexuality lawful. That is why we have a great deal of difficulty in understanding him on the issue. The member says he formed his views on the matter years ago while in the Army, yet only a few short years ago he was telling people that he hoped would vote for him something diametrically opposed to what he has been saying tonight. That is why I doubt his sincerity on the issue. The member for Napier and I may well vote on this matter in the same lobby but I hope I come to the Chamber with cleaner hands than he does. Of all the contributions I have heard, I respect and admire the contribution of the Minister of Education, because one knows exactly where he stands on the matter, and he has been consistent in that stance. I shall vote against the third reading of the Bill. I voted for the Bill to be recommitted. The vote on that matter brought about an unholy alliance with the firm protagonists for the Bill and the firm opponents of it crowding into one lobby to vote that the Bill should not be recommitted. My grave misgivings about the Bill are shared by many New Zealanders. They are that we are trying to do too much too quickly, and that the age of consent is much too low. I adhere to the view that there is an argument for some reform in the homosexual law, but I do not countenance the legislation that we now have before the House, and for that reason I shall vote against it. The age of 16 years is an intolerably young age to inflict on New Zealand when many children are still at school, when many young men are grasping for maturity and manhood, and going through a complex change in their life. It is asking too much of New Zealand society to expect it to adjust to that in such a rapid manner. For those reasons I will vote against the third reading of the Bill. One of the other reasons I will vote against it is the manner in which it has been dealt with by the House. The parliamentary procedures are ill equipped for dealing with issues such as this. There is no doubt that the structure of the Standing Orders has constrained members when they have wanted to have matters recommitted that would bring about legislation better than it might otherwise be. There was an example of that tonight. It is possible to have only one application for a Bill to be recommitted and only one change can be made. That is a constraint in legislation such as this when party Whips do not operate and all members are free to vote according to their consciences. Our procedures do not easily handle conscience matters, and that has been clearly demonstrated through the passage of the Bill. Apart from my grave concern about the major change-in particular, the age limit that will be forced upon the country should the Bill become law-the second concern I have is the manner in which the legislation was dealt with. It was railroaded through the select committee procedures and I, for one, am saddened by that. People can say it was in the select committee for a long time, but I say to members that this is one of the major changes we will make as a Parliament and therefore we should listen to all arguments on the matter. But what did we do? Some months into the procedures of the select committee a Government majority decided to close the hearings, yet how often do we hear that we should have consultation in the House and should listen to everyone who wants to bring an argument here and have a point of view put before a select committee? However, Government members on the select committee voted that it should stop having hearings and that the select committee should cease to hear from the many people who still wished to have their points of view heard before Parliament, including organisations as responsible as the National Council of Women. How does the Minister of Women's Affairs feel about organisations such as that being precluded from having their views heard? Some political heat was generated against some of the Labour politicians on the issue, so as a group they came to the select committee and closed the hearing by a majority vote. Therefore Parliament was not able to hear all the evidence that people wanted to present before the House deliberated on the legislation. Worse than that, many petitions-not just one or two-to be heard by that select committee were not heard. The House knows that the right to petition Parliament is one of the most ancient constitutional rights that a citizen holds, and when for purely political motives a majority on the select committee denies the people the right to petition Parliament about legislation, Opposition members say that those members have gone too far. They cannot expect to force legislation through the House when, first, they have denied people the right to have their points of view properly put to the select committee; and, secondly, they have denied petitioners the ancient and hard-fought-for right to come before the House and have their submissions heard by a parliamentary committee and reported back to Parliament. That was what happened, and those people were denied their constitutional rights. That was a sad day for Parliament. That is the second reason I will vote against the third reading. I am saddened that we do not have a more moderate Bill that would receive more support from members. In my view the legislation will not have the majority support of members, and I believe that is for the two reasons I have outlined to the House. Those are certainly the reasons that have led me to the conclusion that I should no longer support the legislation. Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (St. Kilda): I support the Homosexual Law Reform Bill, which was introduced in March 1985; in July 1986 Parliament is still considering the third reading. I find it extraordinary that it should be suggested that the parliamentary process has not devoted sufficient time to consideration of the Bill. I cannot think of any other Bill that has occupied so much of the time of Parliament. Some members have begun to think that we could look forward to a long career in Parliament with Wednesdays filled up with consideration of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill. I believe that the consideration of the Bill has been one of the most regrettable episodes in modern parliamentary history-[Interruption.] - and some of the interjections we have heard reinforce that point. It has often been said by political commentators, both within the House and outside it, that Parliament is at its best on debates of genuine issues of private conscience. That has usually been so. I can remember listening during my first term in Parliament to debates on the abortion issue-debates that reached a higher standard than is the wont for Parliament. I can recall listening to debates in the 1970s on similar issues, when members with deeply held beliefs, who were deeply divided, managed to debate the issues without attacking each other personally and without stooping to low political tactics. Tonight we heard the member for Wanganui make a speech that was a classic example of the kind of speech the House has been accustomed to hear on private members' Bills of conscience. I am sure he will forgive me for saying that this has not been the easiest week in politics for him, and that he was able to make such a speech is a tribute to what the House should be about when it is considering matters of this kind. However, in general, the debate on the Bill has not reached that standard. It has generated incredible bitterness and extraordinary personal attacks, and it has affected the whole atmosphere of Parliament over the past year. Many of the problems Parliament has faced in its running over the past year have in large measure been generated by the nature of the debate on the Bill, because in the past when the House has come to measures of this kind members have been able to put aside their party colours and to recognise genuinely held beliefs, and to respect those beliefs, even when their own beliefs have differed fundamentally. I have listened to speech after speech, made at every stage of the Bill, that indicated that members seem unable to recognise that other members can hold different views, and hold those views genuinely. That is one of the reasons I have spoken infrequently on the Bill: because of their nature I simply found it somewhat distasteful to participate in much of the proceedings. It is regrettable, too, because there has been a breakdown of the unspoken rules about how private members' Bills of conscience are dealt with as they relate to party lines. There has been an unforgivable attempt by some members to suggest that the Bill is a party Bill, and that the division is upon party lines. I have to say that that is a great insult to my colleagues the member for Napier, the member for Southern Maori, the member for Gisborne, and several others, who have consistently opposed the Bill, and who have never been under any pressure from their colleagues to do anything else. I ask whether any Opposition member can give the same assurance for the National Opposition. The position is regrettable, too, because of the antipathy to homosexuals that has been generated by discussion of the Bill. The Bill is designed to ease some of the burdens that homosexuals suffer, but the discussions have all too often led to outbreaks of what is often called homophobia, and attacks upon homosexuals. Much of what has been said both inside and outside the House in attacking the Bill scarcely makes one proud to be a New Zealander. It is regrettable, too, because of the ability of people to present the issue in a false light. The Minister of Education rightly said that members-both individually and collectively cannot merely be the tools of public opinion. However, it is worth asking what the public opinion is on the actual content of the Bill now before the House. The latest opinion polls show that more than 60 percent of New Zealanders support the decriminalisation of homosexuality. There is only one way to decriminalise homosexuality - that is, to stop making it illegal. GRAEME LEE: That's wrong. Dr MICHAEL CULLEN: I will not respond to the member for Hauraki because I may merely stoop to the tactics I have already condemned in members during the debate. There is only one way to decriminalise homosexuality - that is, to stop making it illegal. The significant division has been over age, but the largest proportion of people now support 16 as the age of consent. That is what the public supports, and that is what the Homosexual Law Reform Bill-stripped of Part II, which I supported-actually provides for. That is the reality. If the argument is to be about what the people support, then, in fact, the people support what is in the Bill. However, I accept that the people do not support the Bill, because they have been convinced that the Bill is different from what it is. What the people believe is in the Bill is not what is in fact in it, and the misinformation that has been spread is extraordinary. I am reminded of Gladstone's famous comment when losing the election of 1874-that he was drowned in a torrent of gin and beer. I fear that that is the kind of pressure we are facing. The real, central issue-seldom debated, but touched upon by the member for Napier is whether the law should enforce most people's abhorrence of sodomy, anal intercourse, call it what one will. I do not deny that most people have that abhorrence, but the law cannot be made the medium for enforcing that view. What is right is not defined by what is legal, thank goodness! There are still some matters left to the individuals of New Zealand that are not defined for them by 95 people who sit within the Chamber. Why not? First, homosexuality is not a chosen behaviour, and a law one way or the other will make no difference. Secondly, I am appalled by the lack of basic human understanding of our fellow people. " Judgment is mine" sayeth the Lord. However, any number of candidates wished to pre-empt that final right, both inside and outside the Chamber. The member for Napier said that one should love the sinner, not the sin. Unfortunately, under the present law it is not the sin but the sinner who is sent to jail. Therefore, even the member's own context of “Let him love the sinner, and not send the sinner to jail" does not affect his right to condemn the sin. Let him think upon that before he casts his final vote. I call upon members to show some honesty towards people we know and cherish. Two of my closest friends as a young man were homosexuals, or later declared themselves to be so. I will not fail those people when I vote on the question. We have heard much about the question of AIDS, and what is done by pushing things under the carpet and making homosexuality a criminal offence instead of allowing people to be themselves, to seek the assistance they need, to be able to talk about their contacts, and to be able to ensure that information is available so that we can deal with a very real problem. The question of the protection of minors has been used to muddy the issue. Nothing in the Bill affects minors. I have been asked many times about my children. My children are daughters-they have nothing to fear from male homosexuals. JUDY KEALL (Glenfield): I agree with those who say that while one section of society is oppressed we are all oppressed. Homophobia, or fear of homosexuals, is crippling society. I believe that homosexual law reform is the first step to freeing society of that fear and freeing the gay community from discrimination. Under the present law not only sodomy but all sexual activity between males is a crime. At the third reading of the Bill it is important to be very clear about the present law. It is still a crime even if both parties consent, are adult, and are in the privacy of their own home. All anal intercourse is a crime, including that between a married couple. There are no exceptions to any of those offences, nor are any defences allowed in the law. The penalties range from 5 years to 14 years in jail even if both parties consent. That means that heterosexual married couples are liable to spend 14 years in jail for sodomy. Despite the penalties I have just read out, we all know that the law has not been enforced for a long time. The member for Napier is absolutely right about that. I am amazed at the number of people who oppose the Bill and who, presumably, know what the law is; yet I have never heard any of them arguing that we should imprison all gay men who practise their homosexuality. I have never heard people say that, yet that is what the law states. When I talk to people in my electorate who bring up questions about the Bill, and I explain what the law states, I am amazed at how many of them have been misled by the opponents of the Bill and do not know that the law states that those people should be in jail. When I ask them: " Do you think those people should be put in jail?" they say: “Oh, no, that's not what we want. We don't believe they should be put in jail." I then say to them: " Do you think it will be right if we do not put them in jail?" They say " Yes", and I say: " That's all we are changing; we are changing the law in that respect." They say " That's O. K." Members must be very clear what they are voting for tonight. We will be voting for all private consenting sexual activity between adult males to be made legal. That is all. It is very sad that so many of the Bill's opponents have misrepresented what it is doing. They have engendered fear that young boys will be legitimately seduced and that people will be forced into sexual activity against their will. That is completely untrue. All sexual activity between males to which one party does not consent will still be a crime. Anal intercourse between heterosexuals when one partner does not consent will be a crime. That is rape under the new rape law. Any male who has consenting activity with a boy under the age of 16 years will be liable to a term of imprisonment ranging from 7 years to 14 years, depending on the circumstances and the age of the boy. The penalties in the Bill are strengthened to bring them into line with the penalties pertaining to sexual intercourse or indecency with girls. A new offence is created-that of running a male brothel. The Bill amends the Crimes Act to put homosexual behaviour on the same footing as heterosexual behaviour. The Bill will not legalise soliciting. I want to speak briefly now about the age limit, because when " adult" is defined in the Bill we are talking about the age of 16. I say very clearly tonight that I believe that setting the age of 16 is a matter of equity - no more, no less. When we say that at 16 we consider a young boy or a young girl to be adult in the matter of sexuality we mean that they have reached the age when they are believed capable of responsible action. It does not mean that it is compulsory for a young woman to indulge in sexual activity merely because she has reached that age. So, of course, it does not mean that it is compulsory for a young man to indulge in any sexual activity at 16. It is simply that he or she has reached the age at which we expect young people to be capable of making a responsible decision. As a mother of teenage sons I have recommended to my sons that they do not indulge in any sexual activity at that age. I think they should wait for quite some time. I have made that recommendation, but it is up to them, and I have to trust them from that age to make that decision. When members are talking about the age of 16 they must remember that people can get married at that age. Very few do, but it is the legal age at which one can get married. It has never been suggested by anyone who opposes the Bill that the law for women - the age of 16-should be changed. Why therefore are they so adamantly opposing the Bill concerning young men? I totally reject the argument that young men are less mature than young women. I believe that they are responsible and able to make decisions, and I do not see why young men should be protected more than young women. After all, a young woman can become pregnant, and the dangers of sexual activity for her at 16 are much greater than they are for any young man. I want now to talk about love and the need of all of us for affection. When the Bill was introduced I was very moved when one member of the House who was supporting the Bill made that very point. It is one that has stayed with me all the way through the debate. If we have a need for affection and can find fulfilment of that need only with someone of the same sex the law should not deny that fulfilment. Certainly, some people choose to be celibate, and that is their choice; but why should the law call a criminal a person who can find love only with a member of the same sex? Let us be clear: from all the evidence we heard at the committee-and I, as a member of the former Statutes Revision Committee, heard more submissions than any other member apart from the member for Wellington Central-no clear evidence was ever given one way or the other about why people are homosexual. It appears that at any given time or place about 10 percent of the population is always homosexual. If people are not to be regarded as criminals the law must be changed. I do not believe that the law makes any difference to the number of heterosexuals or homosexuals in society. I do not believe that if we pass the Bill there will suddenly, overnight, be more homosexuals practising their sexuality. The reason for wanting to change the law for all adult males over the age of 16 is humanity and equity. We no longer want those people to feel that they are criminals, or to put them in such a position that they may be blackmailed. We want them to be able to continue being good, upright members of the community, without any fear or discrimination. I strongly support the Bill and I urge members to vote for the third reading, particularly if they initially made a commitment to decriminalisation. It is important for members to understand why one group in our society should not be looked upon as criminals, and should not be liable to be jailed. It is important that members vote for the Bill, even if they do not feel comfortable about the age of consent. I urge members to think seriously about what they are doing to that section of our society if they leave those people branded as criminals. Passing the Homosexual Law Reform Bill, now an amendment to the Crimes Act, is something we can do to help our fellow members of society feel accepted. It is very sad that so many homosexual men in our society still feel pressurised into marriage. RICHARD NORTHEY (Eden): In rising to support the third reading of the Bill, I take my last chance to appeal to members to support what is only a recognition of basic human rights. The most basic of human rights is surely the ability to express love and affection to others in the way that is natural, that is derived from a person's basic being. Someone once asked me what one calls men who love one another, and the answer is, of course, Christians. I have been amazed to find that significant sections of the Christian church in the community oppose the Bill, which is basically about love and affection. I also realise that most churches and most Christian people in the community support the Bill because they respect the rights of people made and born in the image of the Creator to be able to express their natural integrity and natural affection. They reject the views of a minority of people who do not accept the right of others to have different views and to be able to behave in a way repugnant to some people. I find repugnant the economic activities of many people and the way they oppress others, yet there are still laws that allow that to happen. It is appalling that we have allowed to remain for so long a law that denies people the right to love, companionship, and affection. Such an attitude is derived from the same root as racism, the fear many people have of the disabled, and religious bigotry. People who have complained about the anger displayed by gay people in some meetings when their basic nature has been attacked and despised can understand the reaction as being similar to the reaction we see on television screens each day. In South Africa there are people who have been oppressed for two or three generations. Gay people in our community have been oppressed for longer than that, and the change is long overdue. There has been much debate about the causes and nature of homosexuality. One of the clearest statements on that matter was made by 200 leading health professionals after a conference at the Wellington medical school: " We are sure that homosexuality is not an illness or a disease. It is a state of being, in terms of sexual orientation. The expression of homosexual orientation is part of the expected sexual expression in any community, and is part of the normal distribution of sexuality. Homosexuals do not become homosexual through either seduction or habit. Like heterosexuals, they are drawn to their sexual orientation by their own feelings, often most unwillingly. To refuse to accept and understand this process is shutting one's eyes to part of the natural expression of sexuality." I appeal to members who from their own upbringing and natural expression of their feelings find homosexual orientation and activity repugnant to try - if they can step down from the position of power and authority over others that they have by virtue of being in Parliament-to put themselves in the position of powerlessness that is experienced by many homosexual people who are trying to express the basic derived orientation that is as natural to them as is heterosexuality to others. Concern has been expressed about the age of consent, particularly by the member for Rotorua, who said that 16 is too low for boys. I agree with the member for Glenfield that if 16 is too low for boys it is too low for girls. However, I have not heard the member for Hauraki or any of the other members who are opposed to the Bill suggest an amendment to raise the age of consent generally. In fact, we have laws that say people can get married at 16 and that women can get pregnant at 16 - that is an event that certainly affects the rest of their lives much more profoundly than an isolated homosexual encounter. We have strong evidence that many young men have homosexual experiences and activities around the age of 16 but most later become confirmed heterosexuals. It is precious to advocate a different age of consent. It is absurd and illogical, and 16 is the only appropriate age. Setting a higher age would mean that at the time when they are unsure of their sexuality people would be subject to being hunted down by the police and by other members of society, and would be subjected to a penalty, which, I remind members, is up to 14 years' imprisonment. That is a longer term than most people get for murder and longer than people get for inflicting lasting physical damage through beating up others. People have said that they love the sinner and not the sin, but have then suggested that people should be locked up for 14 years. That is intolerable. The change is long overdue. Concern has been expressed about the effect of a law change on the spread of AIDS, yet evidence has been given from the Department of Health, the AIDS Foundation, and notable overseas experts that it is ignorance, fear, and the failure to be able to communicate with people who engage in occasional homosexual activity that is the greatest danger to people within that gay community. To give some examples, Dr Pearl Mear is the chief of clinical microbiology in New York, she said and that New Zealand's laws and conservative attitudes against homosexuality are a major problem in trying to combat AIDS. Dr David Miller, clinical psychologist and leading researcher, said that the single most helpful action the Government could take is to legalise homosexuality. It is only in an atmosphere in which people are able to communicate the need for safe sexual activity that the spread of AIDS can be combated. There is clear evidence from the experience in New York and San Francisco that that is so. We were told that research in New York has shown that the incidence of sexually transmitted diseases among homosexuals has now dropped below the levels for heterosexuals, because contact with them after decriminalisation has ensured that they engage in safe sexual practices. A decrease is apparent also in Spain, where the law has set a relatively low equal age of consent. For both males and females Spain has the lowest incidence of AIDS in Europe. In South Australia, where homosexuality has been liberalised, there is little incidence of the disease; in fact, I do not think any cases have emerged there. The evidence shows that the spread of AIDS is most effectively combated by decriminalising the act, by giving people a sense of self-respect, enabling them to get information, and allowing them to live their lives free of the fear and bigotry they have been subjected to for more than a century. Hon. TONY FRIEDLANDER (New Plymouth): I move, That the question be now putHon. MARGARET SHIELDS (Minister of Customs): I support the third reading of the Bill. It is necessary to sort out what is being talked about with such important legislation. New Zealand is away behind most countries in the Western World in that legislation, but I hope we will catch up. The measure does not advocate any particular form of behaviour; it is about acceptance and tolerance. It is about facing up to the realities of New Zealand society. During the long process of the Bill there has been a lot of talk about Christianity and what Jesus Christ might have had to say about the Bill. Although many people do not attend church regularly, most have been brought up to have some understanding of the Christian religion and some understanding of Christian doctrine. Those who have thought about it at all, and who have studied the priorities that are placed on people in the Christian doctrine, know that the greatest of all the virtues is love-love in the sense of compassion and true acceptance of each other, and love for one another. It is not a qualified emotion; it is a real concern. If members of the House do not front up to that, they may have difficulty in fronting up to themselves. The member for Hauraki disputes the origin of homosexuality. He says that it is learnt behaviour, and, further, that as it is learnt it can be unlearnt. That becomes his justification for opposing the legislation, together with a rather strange reliance on a petition that has had more ballyhoo and doubt thrown on it than any petition brought before the House at any time in the past. I do not doubt the sincerity of the member for Hauraki. I do, however, disagree with him utterly and completely, and so does all the available scientific evidence. The origin of sexual preference is poorly understood. It is known that such preferences are determined at a very early age. Whether one is homosexual, heterosexual, or in some cases, bisexual, is not something that one chooses or that one could choose. It is patently ridiculous to suggest that. That point was well made by my colleague the Minister of Education. One does not choose one's sexuality, and I suggest that, if one could, few would choose the difficult, and at present illegal, path of the male homosexual. I know of no homosexuals who have not resisted the reality of their preference, who have not tried to deny that reality, and who have not suffered enormous pain in acknowledging that preference-first to themselves, and then, if they have the courage, to their family and friends. I should like to talk about the petition because, to my astonishment, and to the astonishment of many others, it is still being bandied around as though it has some kind of factual basis. I personally checked the signatures that were attributed to my electorate on that petition, and I found the petition to be grossly inaccurate. The petition is not something that I would place one iota of faith in if I were a social scientist or a statistician. Alongside my own referendum, which was sent to every voter in my electorate, I placed the results of a Heylen poll that was conducted, coincidentally, at around the same time. The results were entirely consistent, and within the margin of error. I am therefore inclined to think that the evidence from that Heylen poll is probably much more reliable than any evidence from the petition. It shows that two-thirds of New Zealanders support the legalisation of homosexual behaviour, and that about 30 percent-the figure varied depending on the part of the country-were opposed to it. The House ought to know that. Some of the people who came to me - and I know they came to others also-opposing the Bill cited experiences that they themselves had had. Those people were more likely to be males. They cited experiences of being accosted by male homosexuals as young men. The curious thing is that it seems to have had no effect on their behaviour, and that again gives the lie to the suggestion by the member for Hauraki that homosexuality is somehow learnt behaviour, or behaviour that one can, somehow, catch. It is quite clear that contact with male homosexuals does not change orientation. It is annoying, in much the same way as it is annoying for a female to be accosted by a male heterosexual making unwanted advances. Most sexual harassment involves male heterosexuals harassing young women. Why do people spend so much time worrying about homosexual behaviour that is clearly not changing the orientation of those being attacked, but merely annoying them in much the same way as all unwanted sexual advances annoy? Like the member for St. Kilda, I do not have any sons, and, like him, I have two daughters. That does not mean that I do not care about young men, nor does it mean that my own family would be immune to the direct consequences of an unjust law that discriminates against male homosexuals and that, in come cases, forces deceit and ill advised attempts at going straight. In those cases, going straight is an extraordinary way to describe living a lie. I know of several cases of young women entering into marriages with young men, quite sincerely. The young men have been unable to front up to a lifetime of being a male homosexual, and have attempted to be heterosexual. It has not worked, and the tragedy has been enormous. I suggest that most New Zealanders support the Bill, and that most New Zealanders will be immensely relieved when the third reading is completed and the legislation is on the statute book. All objective evidence supports that view. It has been a torrid and divisive debate. The law needs to be changed, and tolerance must be shown for those who differ from ourselves and for those, both inside and outside the House, whose opinions differ from ours. I ask all members to extend that tolerance to those who at present are discriminated against by law for no other reason than that they are different from ourselves, and who, at the moment, cause no harm to any other human being. Hon. WARREN COOPER (Otago): I move, That the question be now put. Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER: I think it would be inappropriate to put the question at this stage. There have been eight speakers, and it is a debate in which many members have become involved. The debate has generated a great deal of support and opposition, and I do not think the closure would be appropriate at this time. EDDIE ISBEY (Papatoetoe): I raise a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. The issue is a conscience issue, and affects everyone individually. I believe that in the spirit of the House it is wrong for any member to ask for the motion to be put. Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is not a point of order. JIM ANDERTON (Sydenham): It is important for the House to make clear to the New Zealand people what the Bill will not do. The Bill will not change the laws about marriage; it will not change the laws on adoption; it will not change the laws about the custody of children; it will not change what is taught in the schools; it will not allow anyone to molest anyone else; it will not force an employer to employ a gay person who is not suitable for the job; it will not stop people from being able to criticise or preach against gay people - and that should please some members. Morality is a human thing: it does not depend on religion, on the church, or even on God. Morality, which some people call conscience, makes us aware of the peculiar psychological phenomenon that gives us all a sense of obligation to do what is right rather than what is wrong. Exercising one's conscience, therefore, is not just a matter of doing what one is told, even by God; it involves understanding, and knowing what one is doing and why. Knowing what one is doing is being human, and that is the first and best reason for doing it. What is at issue and at stake in the homosexual law reform debate? Those in favour of reform do not want criminal sanctions to be retained for use against persons over 16 years of age who engage in sexual activity in private and by mutual consent, whether they be homosexuals or heterosexuals. Those who oppose reform want all sexual activity between males, of whatever age, whether or not by mutual consent, to be a criminal offence. A good deal of the heat in the debate has been generated by those - many of whom profess strong Christian beliefs-who are outraged by the morality, or immorality, even sinfulness, of male homosexual behaviour. That no criminal sanctions exist for female homosexual behaviour is a point on which most are silent. Is it the job of politicians to pass laws that deliver moral judgments on members of our society? Some Christians quote the Bible as their source for saying yes, but the Bible is a dangerous document from which to quote. Christ Himself did not have a high regard for either lawyers or lawmakers. " Unless your justice gives fuller measure than the Scribes and Pharisees", He said, " you shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven." To those anxious to rush forward to judge the behaviour of others and to pass laws on their behaviour, He made an offer, which the mob of his day refused: " Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." GRAEME LEE: Read the rest of the Bible. JIM ANDERTON: Nowhere in Christian teaching can I find any suggestion that one's values should be determined by public pressure, by referenda, or by the weight of numbers on a petition. Pontius Pilate held a referendum. He knew that his prisoner was innocent, but, as the recognised lawmaker of his time and place, he believed that he could wash his hands of the decision of the mob, and stand aside and allow those with the weight of numbers on their side to have their way. Does the member for Hauraki want to be on the side of Pontius Pilate, or on the side of those who would judge, on its merits and on the conscience of those in the House, whether it is appropriate to pass the legislation? Members cannot wash their hands as Pontius Pilate did. We must decide. My view is that the possibility of objective, well informed, as well as unemotional, consideration of the matter has been shown to be difficult if not well night impossible. My mail, and I am sure the mail of many members, is evidence of that difficulty, and some of the contributions to the debate over the many months-if not 1½ years-have proved that point. I remind the House, as other members who have spoken tonight have done, that, with regard to clauses 4 and 5, it has barely been noted that the term of imprisonment for indecent assault or anal intercourse on a boy under the age of 16 years is imprisonment for between 6 years and 14 years, which is the same range of sentence usually reserved for murderers. What punishment do those opposing the Bill want? Do they want more punishment than for the crime of murder, and, if they do, what are the implications? The member for Napier mentioned the attitude of the Catholic Church towards the Bill, and, by implication, indicated that there was some kind of universal or catholic agreement amongst Christians and Catholics on the matter. In 1956, 30 years ago, before the reform of the law against homosexuality in Britain, a committee was set up by the Catholic Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster to draw up a report on the Catholic position regarding homosexuality and the law in that country. The report submitted to the British Government by the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster made the following conclusions: " Attempts by the State to enlarge its authority and invade the conscience of the individual, however high-minded, always fail and frequently do positive harm. It should accordingly be clearly stated that penal sanctions are not justified for the purpose of attempting to restrain sins against sexual morality committed in private by responsible adults. They" - that is, criminal sanctions-" should be discontinued because, (1) they are ineffectual; (2) they are inequitable in their application; (3) they involve punishments disproportionate to the offence committed; and (4) they undoubtedly give scope for blackmail and other forms of corruption." With all due respect to my colleague the member for Napier, I would suggest that the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster knows a good deal more about the theological position of the Catholic Church than the member for Napier. That is a serious and considered reflection of the Catholic Church of Great Britain, which supported the reform of homosexual laws in that country. No one could accuse the committee of being extravagantly radical or wanting to hasten the demise of Western civilisation or any other such claim. The decriminalisation of homosexuality does not require that one approves of or wants to promote homosexual behaviour. Moral and personal condemnation are compatible with a human activity being legal. It does not mean that one agrees with it, and that is the essence of the Bill. The Bill is an attempt to achieve equity. I conclude by quoting from a letter I received from a former London policeman now living in New Zealand. He wrote: “In the matter of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill there appears to be no mention of who does the arresting if consenting adult homosexuality in private remains a crime. Will it be members of Parliament, or a religious group, or a vigilante squad, or the police? Before the English law changed I was a young policeman ordered into the dark streets and the private recesses of London to hunt and arrest homosexuals. My actions were the immoral act; their crime-their sexuality; my shame-that I had no brief to crush the sensibilities of fellow human beings. To criminalise private morality turns us off the steep path to civilisation." That is what would happen if the law were left as it is. That would be reliance on a law that could not be implemented. that would bring the law into disrepute, and that is something to which the House should not be a party. Dr BILL SUTTON (Hawke's Bay). There must be many people listening to the debate who are astonished at the capacity of members of Parliament to continue discussing this important issue for 18 months. There are many things that should still be said in the third reading debate, and there are many members who wish to be heard on the matter who have not yet had the opportunity to have their final say. I deplore any attempt to railroad the House into voting on the third reading before all those who wish to speak on the Bill have had an opportunity to do so. The member for Rotorua advanced an interesting argument. He was one of the 22 members who supported the attempt to discharge and recommit the Bill in order to reconsider the age of consent. He told the House tonight that he believes that the law relating to homosexual acts should be reformed, but that he finds he has such difficulty with the Bill as it stands that he could not support its third reading. He particularly objected, first, to the age of consent; and, secondly, to the manner in which the Bill had been dealt with by the House up until this point. I strongly disagree with him about how the House has dealt with the Bill. The select committee that was given the responsibility of conducting hearings on the detailed evidence sat for an unprecedented number of hours, and heard an unprecedented number of oral submissions. I do not believe that simply because the committee did not hear every group that wished to appear before it and endlessly repeat the same arguments, and because it did not wish to hear all of the petitions that had been presented, that establishes that it did not give the Bill adequate consideration at that stage. During the debate on the reporting back I told the House that I wanted to hear a cogent argument that there had been evidence to be presented to the select committee that was significantly different from the other facts placed before it. I invited members such as the member for Rotorua, who were criticising the select committee, to give examples of evidence that should have been heard, but they were not able to do so. At the same time, I asked the members supporting the reporting back to prove to me that everything had been done in the select committee that should have been done. Once again, they were not able to put up convincing arguments. I was forced to abstain from voting on the reporting back, and I left the precincts of the House in order to do so. That select committee gave a great deal of time to consideration of the Bill, and the house has also given a great deal of time to it. It is true that we have not yet devoted many hours of debate to the third reading, but we certainly did to the earlier stages. It is an interesting reflection on the tactics being used that, whereas in the earlier stages of the Bill its proponents were moving that the debate be abbreviated and the motion put, and the opponents of it steadfastly maintained that further argument should be considered, the tables have been turned tonight. The opponents of the Bill seem to be determined to push it to a final vote, and the other members do not wish it to be concluded until they have had an opportunity to speak. What we have had - and it has come out in the earlier stages of the debate-is two organised groups of members: those who are wholeheartedly in favour of the initial reform put forward by the member for Wellington Central, and are clearly an organised group of people with coherent and logical arguments who were able to marshal their supporters; and those who are totally opposed to any reform of the law relating to homosexual acts and want to keep New Zealand locked into a position that has been relinquished by almost every other Western democracy-they also were an organised group of M. P. s who clearly marshalled their supporters and told them which way to vote on every division. The only thing that has saved the debate, the Bill, and the people of New Zealand from having a decision foisted on them one way or another that would not command majority support has been that neither of the organised groups has an absolute majority. Neither group has been able to have its way with any certainty. If there were a vote on the third reading at this stage no member could be confident of the final outcome. I am sure that the organisers-the numbers men-have done their jobs; I am sure that they are optimistic that they hold the edge; but I am also sure that they cannot guarantee the outcome. That means that there is a group of members whose votes on the issue will be critical, and I want to hear some of them speak. I want to hear more of them than just the member for Rotorua and myself explaining the reasoning they intend to apply in the final voting; there is much more to be heard from them. Since the earlier stages were debated there have been some interesting developments, and they are worth considering. For example, a recent survey has been published on where the people of New Zealand stand on the issue. It is interesting that almost 64 percent of the population now supports reform. That is a significant increase on the proportion-57 percent-that supported reform 18 months ago. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: I raise a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker, under Speaker's rulings 41/1, 41/3, and 41/5. The member on his feet is proceeding on a much wider basis than is customary at a third reading. I quote Speaker's ruling 41/1: " The exact boundaries of the narrower third reading debate” - and so on. I suggest that the broad canvas that the member for Hawke's Bay is attempting to paint is well beyond the boundaries encompassed in the Speaker's rulings to which I have referred. Dr BILL SUTTON: Speaking to the point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker, I should like you to be guided on the matter by the precedent set by earlier rulings during the course of this long debate. It has ranged far and wide, and it has generally been accepted that on a broad issue such as this-a moral issue and a private member's Bill-considerable latitude is allowed to members to explain their reasoning. Therefore I do not feel that I or any other member should be constrained to speak narrowly at this stage. TREVOR MALLARD: It is important to consider Speaker's ruling 41/3: “Debate on the third reading is more restricted than it is on the second reading." - and especially the second sentence: " It is limited to matters contained in the Bill as it comes from the Committee." The implication is also that the debate in the Committee can be gone over, and it is important that we do that, and remember that 7 months were spent during that Committee stage considering a wide range of issues, many of which are now being reconsidered. Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER: The matter can be dealt with in this way. It is perfectly correct to note the Speakers' rulings that generally apply in the third reading stage. However, I have to say that this is not a typical third reading debate. I have been aware that members have ranged beyond the narrow considerations usually given in the third reading to matters that pertain to the debate that took place in the Committee. I have not been in the chair all evening. However, during the time I have been in the chair I have been listening to material that I believe comes within Speaker's ruling 41/2: " The third reading debate should be in the nature of a summing up". I take it that members are attempting to sum up their views of a long debate that has taken place over several months, and I think it is proper to allow them some latitude. Dr BILL SUTTON: One of the most interesting features of the debate in the Committee stage was the tactical manoeuvre adopted when Part I of the Bill-which has effectively become the Bill for the third reading-was not amended, other than to make an exception for the armed forces. I spoke against that amendment, and I voted against it, because I believe it is illogical to have one set of criminal activities for the armed forces, and another for the general population. That can readily lead to illogical discrimination amongst people who are in the armed forces, people who have recently left the armed forces, or people who are about to join the armed forces. I believe that the amendment was passed purely as a compromise by one particular group of members, who felt that it was necessary to compromise. What was not passed was any attempt to alter the age of consent for homosexual activities or for sodomy. Those votes revealed an unfortunate alliance between those members who were wholly in favour of reform and those who were totally opposed to it, which resulted in those members being out on a limb and voting by themselves. Those members have established again tonight that they cannot command a majority in the House. There is no doubt that a majority in the House could easily be commanded by those members who sought a compromise combining with either major faction-those who are opposed to reform or those who are in favour of reform. Because that group of members who sought a compromise did not enter into discussion with either the opponents of the Bill or the supporters of it they failed to find an accommodation. They failed in their responsibility to bring forward reform legislation that could command a clear majority in the House and in the country. ROGER McCLAY (Waikaremoana): I move, That the question be now put. TREVOR MALLARD (Hamilton West): First I condemn the loss of Part II of the Bill during the Committee stage. In voting against it the House lost the opportunity to pass a law that stated that, no matter what a person's sexual orientation, he could work and live wherever he wanted. The House decided that that was not appropriate. I believe that the decision was not a good one. For most of the hearings of the select committee I was in the chair. I went to 26 sessions over 70 hours in that committee, and the proceedings were tedious repetition. Many groups made the same point, not making it well, and, at the later stages, not adding information for the House or the committee. The most moving part of the select committee hearings was in Auckland, where we heard several confidential submissions. Two of those submissions were from women whose husbands were homosexual. Both the men knew before they were married that they were gay. They had really believed that getting married would mean that they could work through their sexual orientation, and that not only would they become heterosexual but that they would be happily heterosexual. Of course, in both cases it did not happen, because it does not happen that way. The tragedy of one of those cases was that the first time one of the women became aware that her husband was gay-and this was after many years of marriage-was when the police told her that he had been arrested for a sexual act in a public toilet. That is an indication of the way the law works to push people, first, into marriages that are totally inappropriate, and, secondly, into casual sexual relationships that I abhor. At the select committee we also heard from several medical experts. With one exception - a person holding a minor position in an Auckland hospital - those who came before the committee were unanimous in the opinion that it was appropriate to decriminalise homosexual activity. The select committee made some major changes to the Bill. I heard it said tonight that there is a group of M. P. s who are unwilling to compromise on the Bill, and that it is being pushed through. I want to make it clear that that is not correct. During the Committee stage two substantial changes were made. The first was moved, I think inappropriately, by my colleague the member for Island Bay, as Minister of Defence. It made a major change in the application of the law to the armed forces. The second major change was the decision to drop Part II - the part that had regard for the human rights of people of different sexual orientation. It protected not only homosexual men and lesbians but also heterosexuals. It meant that the sauna parlour operator could not say: " I am not employing you because you are not gay." That point needs to be remembered. There were also some minor changes. I moved an amendment, and although some people regarded it as insignificant I regard it as significant from at least one point of view-it gained the unanimous support of the Committee. That amendment tightened the law on homosexual activity with intellectually handicapped people. I thought the Bill was deficient in that regard and that it was one of two matters that deserved change, and the Committee agreed to change it. The Bill not only affects homosexual relationships. Even as it is amended, it also affects anal intercourse. Anal intercourse is an act that is carried out regularly, so the Committee was told, by about 50 percent of homosexual couples. We were also told that if not a majority then a very large minority of heterosexual couples have at some stage in their relationship, if not regularly, experimented in activities that include those we are discussing tonight. It is my belief that the Bill is inappropriately named. On the question of AIDS I want to quote Dr Paul Goldwater, a senior lecturer at the Auckland medical school, the person I believe to be New Zealand's expert on that subject. He said that some people are now using AIDS as a justification for amending the age upwards and voting against the Bill. He said: " It assumes that legal prohibition stops homosexuals from practising. There is no evidence to support this claim that I am aware of. In fact, there are many reasons to believe the current criminal provisions have no effect at all on the incidence of homosexual acts. I believe legal prohibition merely drives the homosexual person into a covert and closeted existence. It is quite impossible to stop the spread of any disease effectively under such circumstances." I want Parliament to consider carefully what it is doing. I appeal to the House to hear all the members who wish to speak in the debate. I was one of the members alongside the member for Whangarei in the lobby opposing the closure on the second reading, because I believe that at important stages of a Bill all members have the right to tell their electorates and the country what their view is. During the second reading I was denied by many of my colleagues my right to state my position. I support the Bishop of Hamilton, Bishop Gaines, in his view that legislators have to work hard to know the difference between morality and legality. BILL DILLON (Hamilton East): The issue being debated has brought out both the best and the worst in the House, not only in the speeches that have been made but also in the mail that members have received and in the incidents that have taken place outside Parliament. I speak with some 25 years of experience as a criminal lawyer in a provincial High Court centre, as a person of strong Christian beliefs, and as a practising Roman Catholic who stood down as the chairman of the cathedral parish council when selected to stand for Parliament. I also voluntarily stood down as a leader at Sunday mass when the Bill came before the House. I did that because I did not believe that my stance should divide the cathedral parish. I am one of those who regularly attend something that the people of New Zealand may not be aware of-regular prayer breakfasts held at 8 a. m. in the Beehive. I share that custom with the member for Hauraki. It is important that those credentials and my background should be known in order to lend validity to the stand I take. I apologise for not being able to attend the prayer breakfast this morning, as I was still coming from Hamilton on a flight that did not arrive in Wellington in time. The Bill sets out to decriminalise homosexuality; it has been promoted by its opponents as one that will legalise it. However, the important issue is that the weight of current medical research indicates that homosexuality is an orientation, not an illness that can be cured, and that in most cases the orientation is established very early in life-probably before the age of 5 years. The orientation towards people of the same rather than the opposite sex is found in 5 percent to 10 percent of a given population. The Bill would allow those people the opportunity to express their orientation without being discriminated against. On occasion I chaired the select committee hearing the Bill, and it dealt with more than 1200 submissions. Further, if the petition that was presented to Parliament was to be taken at face value, my electorate is vitally at risk over the issue. The total number of names on the Hamilton East roll is 20 829. I was told that the petition in my electorate contained 20 299 signatures, which would amount to an amazing 97. 25 percent of the electorate. That is not an acceptable form of lobby, and it is certainly not believable. A Heylen poll conducted in June of last year recorded 61 percent in favour of reform. More recently that figure has climbed to 64 percent. However, as a result of the publication of the petition figures for Hamilton East, Professor Poole of the University of Waikato undertook to check the poll. He conducted a random survey of 677 people in Hamilton East from 19 to 21 September. His result showed that only 37 percent signed the petition. The names, not only on the main petition but on supplementary petitions affecting the Hamilton-Waikato area, have been carefully and closely checked. The results of those checks have not previously been made known, either to the House or to the press. They have been made known to private individuals who have asked me about them, but I believe they are important. Of the 20,829 people on the Hamilton East roll, those identified as having signed the petition number 3193-as opposed to the alleged 20,299. Of that number, there were 218 duplicates, 197 signed twice, 16 signed 3 times, 4 signed 4 times, and 1 assiduous person signed 5 times. I think it is important that the credibility of the figures should be known, because my stance is that I am in favour of the Bill. I am in favour of the decriminalising of homosexuality. I am certainly not personally in favour of homosexuality, but I do not believe that New Zealand law should discriminate against those of that orientation. At the time of the second reading, I expressed reservations about the age of consent being 16. I still have those reservations. I believe that at another time it might be possible to have the age of consent altered. However, in contrast to the member for Rotorua, if the choice is 16 or no reform, I am in favour of the Bill rather than of its defeat. That is a serious choice for me. It is one that I do not take lightly, but it is one that I believe, in principle, must be mine because-age 16 or 18-the element of discrimination is so abhorrent that it is important that the reform go ahead. NEILL AUSTIN (Bay of Islands): I move, That the question be now put. Mr SPEAKER: I am becoming increasingly disposed to accept the closure, because relatively few of the third reading speeches I have heard conform with the requirements of a third reading speech. I am also disposed to accept it because the result is not predictable, as it would be if party matters were involved. In a true sense, the House has the matter in its own hands. I am prepared to listen to one further speech, and then it is my intention, if the House so wishes, that the strength of the opinion of the House be tested. Rt. Hon. BOB TIZARD (Minister of Energy): This has been the longest debate on a Bill in all my time in the House, but I must say that it has been the most divisive Bill-public or private-that I have heard debated during that time. I suggest that it has been even more divisive than the debate on the abolition of capital punishment. It is clear that there has been more emotion, and more misdirected emotion, in relation to the present Bill than in relation to any other. I know that there are some strictures about the form of the debate. I shall concentrate on the Bill in the form in which it came from the Committee of the whole House. That seems to be the nub of the problem. There is now only a Crimes Amendment Bill, containing a very limited part of what was originally intended to be a much wider Bill. All the Bill will effectively do is decriminalise homosexual acts between consenting adults-adults being defined as persons, male or female, above the age of 16 years. Members must accept the Bill in that form. If we do not, we are being asked to legislate for morality rather than for or against a criminal offence. We have heard the views of many people, many of them earnest and well-meaning, some of them well intended, but still it is private morality that has been expressed. We are not looking at the needs of our society. I stress that there are more than enough divisive issues in society today without adding one as divisive as this. Tolerance has been less evident throughout the debate than it has been in most of the other debates on private members' Bills that I can remember-specifically, tolerance of another's point of view. The member for Hamilton East stressed that he had reached his view not because of any personal choice, but because of his need to take cognisance of the affairs of society. That is why I think that members should support what is essentially a Crimes Amendment Bill. We are dealing with what would remain in the statute book as a crime, but the debate has centred on morality. I wonder whether members really appreciate the changes in morality in the world today, and the changes that have taken place in our society over a period of time in relation to the difference between what is regarded as a crime and what is regarded as a sin to be morally condemned. I do not think the House should have any part in moral condemnation. That is very much a matter for the churches and for the people who believe in them and belong to them. I am very much in favour of people living up to the standards of morality that they profess for themselves, but I have no concern whatever with sticking those moral judgments down somebody else's throat. I remind Opposition members that there are societies today for whom New Zealand is prepared to change some of its laws. I refer specifically to Muslim countries. New Zealand is prepared to change its practices in the freezing works to conform with Muslim views, but it does not accept Muslim religious views on personal morality. Adultery and fornication are at present punished in two Muslim states by stoning the practitioners to death. The women are the more usual victims because the evidence is often more readily available than it is when the woman is simply found in flagrante delicto. We must also look at our own past society, in which the strictly religious could condone the execution of a child for striking its parent. Those are extreme instances, although in the course of the debate I have head the reasons why people fought in recent conflicts and heard of the values they thought they were protecting or fighting against. Members should certainly not be seeking at present to limit the actions of consenting adults in private, because that is all that the Bill is concerned with as it comes before the House for its third reading. The member for Rotorua alleged that the Bill's opponents were not given a full hearing of their point of view at the select committee. That may well have been so, but if he fixed his voting patterns on the side of those whose views were not fully heard in select committees there would have been no National Development Bill, no State Services Conditions of Employment Bill, and much of the trade union legislation passed in the previous Parliament would not have been passed. The Bill has received much discussion on its introduction, in the select committee, in the second reading, in the Committee stage, and now in the third reading. Supporters of the Bill are having more to say in the third reading, although its opponents had the most to say in the Committee stage. There has been ample opportunity for most members to express their point of view at some time, but those who have expressed their point of view have not shown much conviction. While some of the evidence that was examined may have caused people to change their minds discussion in the House and in the Committee stage has not. It has tended to harden attitudes, and to divide the groups more clearly. In summary, I stress that, as the member for Napier said, without realising what he had said, we should love the sinner; even if we recognise his actions as being sinful, we have to tolerate the existence of that sinner. I would not like to be judged by anyone else in the House, and I wonder how many members would like to have me judge them. One member said that he represented the voice of conservatism. I am afraid that that member often identifies conservatism with rabidity. I do not think personal representation of rabidity is needed in a debate such as this. Therefore, let members have a little of what is said to be the Christian virtue of charity; let us have better view of those we might consider to be weaker than ourselves. I certainly have no sympathy for homosexual practices, but that is my personal view. What consenting adults do in terms of what remains in the Bill will remain a sin in the eyes of some, but, I hope, not a crime in the eyes of most people. Hon. BILL BIRCH (Franklin): I move, That the question be now put. Mr SPEAKER: The question is, that the question be now put. PHILIP WOOLLASTON (Nelson): I raise a point of order Mr Speaker. I do not want to question the ruling that is implicit in your acceptance of that motion, but I do want to draw a matter to your attention and seek your guidance. I have been seeking the call for approximately 1½ hours, the member for Papatoetoe has been doing so for a similar time, and the Minister of Social Welfare for a slightly shorter time. When you resumed the chair some time ago I drew it to your attention, in a brief exchange, that I was seeking the call. On the present occasion I did not call against the member for Wellington Central. I started to rise to seek the call, saw her rise, and knowing that you had told the House that you were disposed perhaps to consider the closure - Mr SPEAKER: I have been listening with some patience to the member. It undoubtedly appears that he is questioning my ruling that the matter should be put in the hands of the House. As I pointed out to the House previously, the outcome is not a foregone conclusion as it is in party matters. The question is entirely in the hands of the House. If the House decides that the question should not be put, the debate will continue. I am not prepared to accept any point of order that implies a contravention of my decision that the motion should be put. That will not be opposed. FRAN WILDE (Wellington Central): I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Mr SPEAKER: What remedy does the member want to raise? FRAN WILDE: It is not a remedy. Mr SPEAKER: Why is the member raising a point of order? FRAN WILDE: I want to know whether the mover of the Bill is entitled to a right of reply. Mr SPEAKER: The mover does not have that right when the House is deciding whether the question should be put. Hon. DAVID CAYGILL: But the House hasn't decided. Mr SPEAKER: What remedy does the member seek? Hon. DAVID CAYGILL (Minister of Trade and Industry): I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker, and I do so with great reluctance. I ask you to reconsider the ruling you have given. Mr SPEAKER: That concern might well be appropriate in party matters, but in the present matter I would defy anyone to predict with certainty what the House will decide. I will put the matter over to the House to decide. I will not allow any further attempt to delay it, as I see members are trying to do. By their so doing I presume that they may have a greater knowledge of what the decision of the House will be than I have. I am aware of a definite attempt to delay the matter, and I will not allow it. The House divided on the question, That the question be now put. Ayes 42 Angus; Austin, H. N.; Austin, W. R.; Banks; Birch; Bolger; Burdon; Colman; Cooper; Cox; East; Falloon; Friedlander; Gerard; Graham; Gray; Jones; Kidd; Knapp; Luxton; McClay; McKinnon; McLean; McTigue; Marshall, D. W. A.; Maxwell, R. F. H.; Morrison; Peters; Richardson; Rodger; Smith; Storey; Tapsell; Terris; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Townshend; Upton; Wellington; Young, T. J.; Young, V. S. Tellers: Braybrooke; Lee. Noes 43 Anderton; Austin, M. E.; Bassett; Batchelor; Boorman; Burke; Butcher; Caygill; Cullen; Dillon; Douglas; Dunne; Elder; Fraser; Gair; Goff; Gregory; Hercus; Hunt; Isbey; Keall; King; Lange; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Maxwell, R. K.; Moyle; Neilson; Northey; O'Flynn; O'Regan; Palmer; Prebble; Scott; Shields; Shirley; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Tizard; Wetere; Woollaston. Tellers: Mallard; Wilde. Majority against: 1 Debate interrupted. The House adjourned at 11. 06 p. m.

IRN: 7844
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_homosexual_law_reform_bill_committee_of_whole_house_continued_4_june_1986.html
TITLE: Homosexual Law Reform Bill - Committee of whole House continued (4 June 1986)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 14 June 1986
YEAR: 1986
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 4 June 1986, New Zealand Parliament. In Committee Debate resumed from 16 April 1986. Schedule negatived. Title. FRAN WILDE (Wellington Central) moved to delete the long title and to substitute the following long title: An Act to amend the Crimes Act 1961 by removing criminal sanctions against consensual homosexual conduct between males, and by consequentially amending the law relating to consensual anal intercourse. New title agreed to. Bill reported with amendment

IRN: 7843
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_homosexual_law_reform_bill_committee_of_whole_house_continued_16_april_1986.html
TITLE: Homosexual Law Reform Bill - Committee of whole House continued (16 April 1986)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 16 April 1986
YEAR: 1986
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 16 April 1986, New Zealand Parliament Hon. MERV WELLINGTON (Papakura): I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I want, at the outset, to assure you that I am not referring to the debate just concluded. I shall be as concise as I can. However, the matter is complex. I raise the point of order under the following Speakers' rulings: 16/2, 16/5, 17/1, 138/4, and 139/1, with particular reference to the final portion. The point I raise is whether appropriation is involved. At the time the House last examined the Bill the evidence available was circumscribed or limited. The member for Hauraki received today a letter, which was written yesterday, from the Human Rights Commission, and I read from page 2: “If Part II of the Bill” - that is, the Homosexual Law Reform Bill - “is passed by Parliament pursuant to a democratic majority, and people actively challenge the new law, then there could indeed be an increased work load with increased cost factors." That letter is signed by Mr K. G. MacCormick, the alternative chairman of the commission. He goes on to say on the same page: " The commission asked Dr W. C. Hodge of the Auckland University Law School" - Mr SPEAKER: Order! I understand what the member is raising, but it is not a matter that can be dealt with immediately. As I said to the House when I was recalled to discuss the matter, if new, serious evidence-but not opinion - was raised, it would be considered with other matters. By the very nature of those considerations it is customary for legislation on which the Speaker is to make a judgment to be reviewed before its introduction into the House or before it proceeds along one of its stages. It is inappropriate that a decision should be made merely by my listening to certain evidence being presented. I suggest to the member that the evidence he has should be presented to the Clerk. I will consider that matter and decide whether it satisfies what must necessarily be fairly stringent requirements before I upset a previous ruling. If the evidence does satisfy that ruling, I shall send a message to the Chairman of Committees advising that the Committee should seek a ruling of the Chair. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: I am obliged to you, Mr Speaker. I shall do as you suggest. GRAEME LEE (Hauraki): I raise a further point of order, Mr Speaker. I thank you for your ruling, but I seek additional clarification. I understand you when you say that what is opinion would not necessarily constitute evidence. When you were recalled during a former debate on the Bill you said that anything that was relevant to appropriation, from the time of the introduction of the Bill to this time, would be considered. That makes it difficult to submit to you matters that would not necessarily come outside the range of opinion. Whilst that would not be all of the evidence we would like to bring to you, we believe it would be relevant for you to study it. Could you clarify what you mean by that which is only opinion? Mr SPEAKER: When considering the matters involved the Speaker has always acted on the advice tendered to him, and, if he has been unsatisfied with the competence of the advice, he has gone further afield. For that reason, it is not appropriate that I should pass judgment now, before I have seen evidence and decided whether it is of such a nature as to compel me to make a certain decision. That would almost certainly rule out the possibility of the Speaker taking appropriate advice. For that reason, I assure members that any evidence they have that is not purely opinion I shall be happy to receive and to review, and to consult my advisers on. In Committee Debate resumed from 9 April 1986. Part II. Amendments of Human Rights Commission Act 1977 (continued). WINSTON PETERS (Tauranga) sought the leave of the Committee to move proposed new clause 84 previously ruled out of order. Rt. Hon. BOB TIZARD (Minister of Energy) objected. PHILIP WOOLLASTON (Nelson) moved, That the question be now put. The CHAIRMAN declined to accept the motion. JIM SUTTON (Waitaki) moved, That the question be now put. The Committee divided on the question, That the question be now put. Ayes 42 Anderton; Austin, M. E.; Bassett; Boorman; Burke; Butcher; Caygill; Clark; Colman; Cullen; de Cleene; Dillon; Douglas; Dunne; Elder; Fraser; Gerard; Gerbic; Gregory; Hunt; Isbey; Jeffries; Keall; King; Lange; McKinnon; McLay; McLean; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Neilson; Northey; O'Flynn; Richardson; Scott; Tapsell; Tizard; Townshend; Young, T. J.; Young, V. S. Tellers: Sutton, J. R.; Woollaston. Noes 34 Angus; Austin, H. N.; Austin, W. R.; Banks; Birch; Bolger, Burdon; Cooper; Cox; East; Friedlander; Gair; Graham; Gray; Jones; Knapp; Luxton; McClay; McTigue; Mallard; Marshall, D. W. A.; Maxwell, R. F. H.; Morrison; Muldoon; Peters; Storey; Sutton, W. D.; Talbot; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Upton; Wallbank; Wellington. Tellers: Braybrooke; Lee. Majority for: 8 Motion agreed to. Dr BILL SUTTON (Hawke's Bay) sought leave to withdraw the amendment to clause 9 set out in Supplementary Order Paper 72. JOHN BANKS (Whangarei) objected. WINSTON PETERS (Tauranga) proposed to move the amendment. The CHAIRMAN: The position is covered in Standing Order 190(2), which applies when a motion " That the question be now put" has been carried: " Any proposed amendment that has been properly notified on a Supplementary Order Paper or has been handed in to the Table prior to the time when the closure motion is accepted and which relates to the matter under consideration shall be put forthwith". The member is not in a position to withdraw his amendment. The amendment has to be put. Amendment negatived. Dr BILL SUTTON (Hawke's Bay) moved to insert the following new clauses: 9A. Employment-(1) Section 15 of the principal Act is hereby amended by inserting, after subsection (4), the following subsection: "(4A) Nothing in this section shall apply to preferential treatment based on sexual orientation where the position is one of domestic employment in a private household." (2) Section 15 (6) of the principal Act is hereby amended - (a) By inserting after the words " based on sex", the words " or sexual orientation": (b) By inserting, after the words “to one sex”, the words “or to persons of a particular sexual orientation". 9B. Qualifying bodies-Section 21 (2) of the principal Act is hereby amended by inserting, after the words " to one sex", the words " or to persons of a particular sexual orientation". GRAEME LEE (Hauraki) moved to delete from proposed new clause 9A the word " sexual", and to substitute the word " heterosexual”; and to delete from proposed new clause 9B the words " particular sexual", and to substitute the word " heterosexual". The Committee divided on the question, That the amendments moved by the member for Hauraki be agreed to. Ayes 39 Angus; Austin, H. N.; Austin, W. R.; Banks; Birch; Bolger; Burdon; Colman; Cooper; Cox; East; Friedlander, Gair; Gerard; Graham; Gray; Jones; Knapp; Luxton; McClay; McKinnon; McLay; McTigue; Marshall, D. W. A.; Maxwell, R. F. H.; Morrison; Muldoon; Peters; Storey; Talbot; Tapsell; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Townshend; Wallbank; Wellington; Young, T. J.; Young, V. S. Tellers: Braybrooke; Lee. Noes 40 Anderton; Austin, M. E.; Bassett; Boorman; Burke; Butcher; Caygill; Clark; Cullen; de Cleene; Dillon; Douglas; Dunne; Elder; Fraser, Gerbic; Gregory; Hunt; Isbey; Jeffries; Keall; King; Lange; McLean; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Moyle; Neilson; Northey; O'Flynn; Richardson; Scott; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Tizard; Upton; Wetere; Wilde. Tellers: Mallard; Woollaston. Majority against: 1 Amendments negatived. The Committee divided on the question, That new clauses 9A and 9B be agreed to. Ayes 52 Angus; Austin, H. N.; Austin, M. E.; Austin, W. R.; Banks; Birch; Bolger; Burdon; Butcher; Colman; Cooper; Cox; Cullen; de Cleene; Dunne; East; Elder; Fraser; Friedlander; Gair; Gerard; Graham; Gray; Jeffries; Jones; Knapp; Luxton; McClay; McKinnon; McLay; McLean; McTigue; Marshall, C. R.; Maxwell, R. F. H.; Morrison; Moyle; Muldoon; O'Flynn; Peters; Storey; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Talbot; Tapsell; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Townshend; Wallbank; Wellington; Young, T. J.; Young, V. S. Tellers: Braybrooke; Lee. Noes 26 Anderton; Bassett; Boorman; Burke; Caygill; Clark; Dillon; Douglas; Gerbic; Gregory; Hunt; Isbey; Keall; King; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Neilson; Northey; Richardson; Scott; Tizard; Upton; Wetere; Wilde. Tellers: Mallard; Woollaston. Majority for: 26 New clauses agreed to. 10. 14 p. m. Hon. WHETU TIRIKATENE-SULLIVAN (Southern Maori) moved to insert the following new clauses: 9AA. Employment-Section 15 of the principal Act is hereby amended by inserting, after subsection (6), the following subsection: “(6A) Nothing in this section shall apply to preferential treatment based on sexual orientation where the position is one of authority over persons all or some of whom are under the age of 16 years." 9BB. Land, housing, and other accommodation-Section 25 of the principal Act is hereby amended by inserting, after subsection (4), the following subsection: "(4A) Nothing in this section relating to discrimination by reason of the sexual orientation of any person shall apply to the letting of any residential accommodation." GRAEME LEE (Hauraki) moved to delete from proposed new clause 9AA the word " sexual" and to substitute the word “heterosexual”; and to delete from proposed new clause 9BB the words " apply to" and to substitute the words " prevent preferential treatment on the ground of a person's heterosexual orientation in relation to". The Committee divided on the question, That the amendments moved by the member for Hauraki be agreed to. Ayes 34 Angus; Austin, H. N.; Austin, W. R.; Banks; Birch; Bolger; Burdon; Cooper; East; Friedlander; Gair; Gerard; Graham; Gray; Jeffries; Jones; Knapp; Luxton; McClay; McLay; McTigue; Marshall, C. R.; Maxwell, R. F. H.; Morrison; Muldoon; Peters; Talbot; Tapsell; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Wallbank; Wellington; Young, T. J. Tellers: Braybrooke; Lee. Noes 45 Anderton; Austin, M. E.; Bassett; Boorman; Burke; Butcher; Caygill; Clark; Colman; Cox; Cullen; de Cleene; Dillon; Douglas; Dunne; Elder; Fraser, Gerbic; Gregory; Hunt; Isbey; Keall; King; Lange; McKinnon; McLean; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Moyle; Neilson; Northey; O'Flynn; Richardson; Scott; Storey; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Tizard; Townshend; Upton; Wetere; Wilde; Young, V. S. Tellers: Mallard; Woollaston. Majority against: 11 Amendment negatived. The Committee divided on the question, That new clauses 9AA and 9BB be agreed to. Ayes 44 Angus; Austin, H. N.; Austin, M. E.; Austin, W. R.; Banks; Birch; Bolger; Burdon; Colman; Cooper; Cox; East; Friedlander; Gair, Gerard; Graham; Gray; Jeffries; Jones; Knapp; Luxton; McClay; McKinnon; McLay; McLean; McTigue; Marshall, D. W. A.; Maxwell, R. F. H.; Morrison; Muldoon; O'Flynn; Peters; Storey; Talbot; Tapsell; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Townshend; Wall; Wallbank; Wellington; Young, T. J.; Young, V. S. Tellers: Braybrooke; Lee. Noes 35 Anderton; Bassett; Boorman; Burke; Butcher, Caygill; Clark; Cullen; de Cleene; Dillon; Douglas; Dunne; Elder; Fraser; Gerbic; Gregory; Isbey; Keall; King; Lange; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Moyle; Neilson; Northey; Richardson; Scott; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Tizard; Upton; Wetere; Wilde. Tellers: Mallard; Woollaston. Majority for: 9 New clauses agreed to. GEOFF BRAYBROOKE (Napier) moved to insert the following new clause: 10. Armed Forces, Police, traffic officers, and officers of penal institutions-Section 16 of the principal Act is hereby amended by inserting, after subsection (3), the following subsection: "(3A) Nothing in subsection (1) or subsection (2) of section 15 of this Act shall apply in respect of anything done or omitted to be done in respect of the recruitment, treatment, or dismissal of any person as a member of the Armed Forces, or as a member of the Police, or as a traffic officer, or as an officer of a penal institution, on the ground of that person's sexual orientation.” The Committee divided on the question, That new clause 10 be agreed to. Ayes 42 Angus; Austin, H. N.; Austin, M. E.; Austin, W. R.; Banks; Birch; Bolger; Burdon; Colman; Cooper; Cox; East; Friedlander; Gair; Gerard; Graham; Gray; Jeffries; Jones; Knapp; Luxton; McClay; McKinnon; McLay; McLean; McTigue; Marshall, D. W. A.; Maxwell, R. F. H.; Morrison; Muldoon; Peters; Storey; Talbot; Tapsell; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Townshend; Wallbank; Wellington; Young, T. J.; Young, V. S. Tellers: Braybrooke; Lee. Noes 37 Anderton; Bassett; Boorman; Burke; Butcher; Caygill; Clark; Cullen; de Cleene; Dillon; Douglas; Dunne; Elder; Fraser; Gerbic; Gregory; Hunt; Isbey; Keall; King; Lange; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Moyle; Neilson; Northey; O'Flynn; Richardson; Scott; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Tizard; Upton; Wetere; Wilde. Tellers: Mallard; Woollaston. Majority for: 5 New clause agreed to. GEOFF BRAYBROOKE (Napier) moved to insert the following new clause: 11. Educational establishments-Section 26 of the principal Act is hereby amended by adding the following subsection: "(4) Nothing in this section shall prevent the promulgation or enforcement of any rule of conduct in any primary or secondary educational institution prohibiting, or designed to prevent the occurrence of, sexual behaviour generally, or any particular type of sexual behaviour, within the educational institution." The Committee divided on the question, That new clause 11 be agreed to. Ayes 45 Angus; Austin, H. N.; Austin, M. E.; Austin, W. R.; Banks; Birch; Bolger; Burdon; Colman; Cooper; Cox; East; Friedlander; Gair; Gerard; Graham; Gray; Jones; Knapp; Luxton; McClay; McKinnon; McLay; McLean; McTigue; Marshall, C. R.; Maxwell, R. F. H.; Morrison; Muldoon; Northey; Peters; Storey; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Talbot; Tapsell; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Townshend; Wall; Wallbank; Wellington; Young, T. J.; Young, V. S. Tellers: Braybrooke; Lee. Noes 35 Anderton; Bassett; Boorman; Burke; Butcher; Caygill; Clark; Cullen; de Cleene; Dillon; Douglas; Dunne; Elder, Fraser; Gerbic; Gregory; Hunt; Isbey; Jeffries; Keall; King; Lange; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Moyle; Neilson; O'Flynn; Richardson; Scott; Tizard; Upton; Wetere; Wilde. Tellers: Mallard; Woollaston. Majority for: 10 New clause agreed to. Hon. FRANK O'FLYNN (Minister of Defence) moved to insert the following new clause: 11A. Vocational training bodies-Section 22 of the principal Act is hereby amended by adding the following subsection: "(4) Nothing in subsection (1) of this section shall apply in respect of anything done or omitted to be done in relation to the training of any person who is or is seeking to become a member of the Armed forces by reason of the sexual orientation of that person." The Committee divided on the question, That new clause 11A be agreed to. Ayes 44 Angus; Austin, H. N.; Austin, M. E.; Austin, W. R.; Banks; Birch; Bolger; Burdon; Colman; Cooper; Cox; East; Elder; Friedlander; Gair; Gerard; Graham; Gray; Jeffries; Jones; Knapp; Luxton; McClay; McKinnon; McLay; McLean; McTigue; Marshall, D. W. A.; Maxwell, R. F. H.; Morrison; Muldoon; O'Flynn; Peters; Storey; Talbot; Tapsell; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Townshend; Wallbank; Wellington; Young, T. J., Young, V. S. Tellers: Braybrooke; Lee. Noes 34 Anderton; Bassett; Boorman; Burke; Butcher; Caygill; Clark; Cullen; de Cleene; Dillon; Douglas; Dunne; Fraser; Gerbic; Gregory; Hunt; Isbey; Keall; King; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Moyle; Neilson; Northey; Richardson; Scott; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Tizard; Upton; Wetere; Wilde. Tellers: Mallard, Woollaston. Majority for: 10 New clause agreed to. Hon. FRANK O'FLYNN (Minister of Defence) moved to insert the following new clause: 12. Educational institutions-Section 26 of the principal Act is hereby amended by inserting, after subsection (2), the following subsection: "(2A) Nothing in subsection (1) of this section shall apply in respect of anything done or omitted to be done by any educational establishment conducted by the Armed Forces in respect of any person who is or is seeking to become a member of the Armed Forces by reason of that person's sexual orientation. The Committee divided on the question, That new clause 12 be agreed to. Ayes 44 Angus; Austin, H. N.; Austin, M. E.; Austin, W. R.; Banks; Birch; Bolger; Burdon; Colman; Cooper; Cox; East; Elder; Friedlander; Gair; Gerard; Graham; Gray; Jeffries; Jones; Knapp; Luxton; McClay; McKinnon; McLay; McLean; McTigue; Marshall, C. R.; Maxwell, R. F. H.; Morrison; Muldoon; O'Flynn; Peters; Storey; Talbot; Tapsell; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Townshend; Wallbank; Wellington; Young, T. J.; Young, V. S. Tellers: Braybrooke; Lee. Noes 35 Anderton; Bassett; Boorman; Burke; Butcher; Caygill; Clark; Cullen; de Cleene; Dillon; Douglas; Dunne; Fraser; Gerbic; Gregory; Hunt; Isbey; Keall; King; Lange; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Moyle; Neilson; Northey; Richardson; Scott; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Tizard; Upton; Wetere; Wilde. Tellers: Mallard; Woollaston. Majority for: 9 New clause agreed to. The Committee divided on the question, That Part II as amended be agreed to. Ayes 31 Anderton; Bassett; Boorman; Burke; Caygill; Clark; Cullen; de Cleene; Dillon; Douglas; Dunne; Elder; Fraser; Hunt; Isbey; Keall; King; Lange; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Moyle; Neilson; Northey; Scott; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Tizard; Wetere; Wilde. Teller: Mallard; Woollaston. Noes 49 Angus; Austin, H. N.; Austin, M. E.; Austin, W. R.; Banks; Birch; Bolger; Burdon; Butcher; Colman; Cooper; Cox; East; Friedlander; Gair; Gerard; Gerbic; Graham; Gray; Gregory; Jeffries; Jones; Knapp; Luxton; McClay; McKinnon; McLay; McLean; McTigue; Marshall, C. R.; Maxwell, R. F. H.; Morrison; Muldoon; O'Flynn; Peters; Richardson; Storey; Talbot; Tapsell; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Townshend; Upton; Wall; Wallbank; Wellington; Young, T. J.; Young, V. S. Tellers: Braybrooke; Lee. Majority against: 18 Part II as amended negatived. Progress reported. The House adjourned at 11. 1 p. m.

IRN: 7842
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_homosexual_law_reform_bill_committee_of_whole_house_continued_9_april_1986.html
TITLE: Homosexual Law Reform Bill - Committee of whole House continued (9 April 1986)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 9 April 1986
YEAR: 1986
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 9 April 1986, New Zealand Parliament. In Committee Debate resumed from 26 March 1986. Part II. Amendments of Human Rights Commission Act 1977 (continued). Hon. MERV WELLINGTON (Papakura), on a point of order, drew attention to Speaker's ruling 138/4; and to Speaker's ruling 139/1, which stated that it was not competent for a private member to propose additional taxation. He asked the chairman to consider the relevance of that ruling in the context of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill. PHILIP WOOLLASTON (Nelson) said that if the Bill could be construed as involving a charge on the people it would be a matter for the Speaker, not the Chairman. The matter should have been dealt with on the introduction of the Bill. The CHAIRMAN: The matter cannot be dealt with at this stage. I uphold the interpretation of the member for Nelson. The proper course is for the member for Papakura to raise the point when the Bill is next considered by the House - that is, on the third reading. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON (Papakura), on a point of order, sought the leave of the Committee for the Speaker to be recalled to deal with the matter raised under Speaker's ruling 138/4 and Speaker's ruling 139/1. The CHAIRMAN: Is there any objection? Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (St. Kilda) objected. GRAEME LEE (Hauraki), on a point of order, sought the leave of the Committee to consider Part II of the Bill clause by clause. Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (St. Kilda) objected. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON (Papakura), on a point of order, said that under Speaker's Ruling 221 a private member's Bill that might involve an extra charge on the people by way of rates payable into the Public Account required the recommendation of the Crown and was therefore out of order. Speaker's Ruling 17/1 stated that a private member's Bill that would enlarge the scope of the State's liability by providing for the expenditure of public moneys was an Appropriation Bill. It had been ruled when the Bill had been introduced that it did not involve an appropriation, but it had since been stated that moneys would have to be appropriated. The CHAIRMAN: I take it that the member wants to question whether the ruling was properly given. I can only repeat my earlier ruling that it is perfectly appropriate for the member to raise the matter in the House, but not in the Committee. I do not have any power to rule whether the Bill involves an appropriation. Rt. Hon. Sir ROBERT MULDOON (Tamaki), said that during the Committee stage an amendment could cause the original ruling to be no longer valid; and a detailed discussion of the Bill could disclose something that made the original ruling no longer valid. He moved, That progress be reported in order to obtain a ruling from the Speaker. Motion agreed to. House Resumed. The CHAIRMAN: Mr Speaker, I have been asked to seek your ruling on whether the Homosexual Law Reform Bill involves an appropriation. As I was not in a position to give a ruling on that myself, and as a motion has been moved, it has been agreed that your ruling be sought on the matter. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON (Papakura): The issue first arose earlier tonight before the tea adjournment. The difficulty the Committee got itself into-and there has been no challenge to the chairmanship of the member for Western Hutt, as the Journals of the House will testify-is that following discussion it became clear to the Committee, and therefore to the House, that there might be revenue implications in the Bill that the Committee and Parliament had not originally contemplated. I refer you to Speaker's ruling 138/4: " A private member's Bill clauses of which may involve"-and this is the reason I am raising the matter, remembering that I have not stated that the Bill will or shall - “an extra charge on the people in the way of rates” - and Mr Speaker Statham obviously meant that to mean taxes - “payable into the Public Account", which we call the Consolidated Account, " requires the recommendation of the Crown, and is therefore out of order." I shall come back to that, but for the moment I refer you to Speaker's ruling 139/1, which states in the second sentence: " It is not competent for a private member to propose additional taxation.” That was a ruling of Mr Speaker O'Rorke in 1879, Volume 32, at pages 486 and 497. Speaker's ruling 17/1--again a ruling of Mr Speaker Statham-in 1935, Volume 242, at page 473 states: " A private member's Bill which would enlarge the scope of the State's liability by providing for the expenditure of public moneys is an appropriation Bill." Given the three Speakers' rulings, I believe we have reached the point in the Bill at which we need to establish clearly to what extent the Homosexual Law Reform Bill may be an impost on the people as foreshadowed in the ruling of Mr Speaker Statham. Will the Bill cost the hard-pressed people more in taxes? Mr SPEAKER: Order! I remind the member of his obligation to express the matter tersely. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: I am happy to do that. In the belief that the Bill may impose a burden on the people, I refer the House to a paper issued by the head office of the Department of Health, signed by Dr R. A. Barker, Director-General of Health, and presented to the Statutes Revision Committee of Parliament on 30 April 1985 - Mr SPEAKER: Order! I may be of some assistance to the member in advancing his case. As I understand it, the House and the Committee to date have been working on the assumption that the Speaker's ruling that was given on the introduction of the Bill - that it did not involve an appropriation-was a valid assessment. That remains the rule of the House until the Bill has been altered in some way so as to change the validity of that ruling. If the member has evidence that would lead him to believe that is so, he should produce it tersely. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: I can, in the sense that Mr Speaker Statham foreshadowed it-and I chose my words with caution, for he said " may" and I believe he meant that injunction to act not as a brake on the Committee or on Parliament but as a caution. Mr SPEAKER: I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member, but he seems to misunderstand the issue before the House. The matter before the House-and I presume before the Committee-is whether the Bill has been altered, or whether it is proposed to alter it, in such a way as to make the ruling given by the Speaker invalid. If not, either the member or the Committee is attempting to overrule a ruling that has been given by the chair, and that is not acceptable. I ask the member to come quickly to the point and explain to me in what way the House or the committee has embarked on a procedure that was not envisaged when the ruling was given that the Bill did not involve an appropriation. I ask him to draw attention quickly to the proceedings the Committee is involved in that were not foreseen in that ruling. Rt. Hon. Sir Robert Muldoon: I should like to help by traversing something that was put to the Chairman before you were recalled. As you have said, one possibility is an amendment to the Bill; another circumstance is that of evidence arising during the debate that was not in front of you when you made the ruling, but that nevertheless indicates that if the Bill were passed in that form an appropriation would be needed. That is the evidence that the member has put before the Committee. Because it was a Speaker's ruling, you have been asked to return to listen to that evidence to find out whether it would have altered your ruling had it been in front of you when the Bill was introduced. Mr SPEAKER: I ask the member to arrive at that point fairly soon. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: I refer to the Department of Health paper No. 954. It is obviously a ministerial paper as it must go through the Minister to be received by the appropriate select committee of Parliament, which, in this case, was the Statutes Revision Committee. Whilst no specific dollar and cents terms are added by way of addendum to the paper, it is clear to any member-especially to one who has been a spending Minister that, although it is not emphatically stated, the passage of the Bill would mean a further appropriation by the Government. I quote an addendum to the substantive paper: " AIDS has followed an epidemic course." It should be remembered that that was written by the Director-General of Health, who is not given to using emotive words because he is not in that mould. Mr SPEAKER: Order! I remind the member again of his obligation to express his point of order tersely. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: My submission is that in the absence of a specific revenue-spending pattern for the current financial year, and, as is the custom in New Zealand, for the two subsequent years, the Minister of Health, the Minister of Finance-who keeps a close eye on that kind of thing-and their colleagues should come back to Parliament or to a select committee of the House and fill out all the detail. The Minister of Defence, the Minister of Education, the Prime Minister, and the Deputy Prime Minister know that if the Bill is passed it will involve considerable expenditure, if only for advertising the changes in the law. In addition, there will be the expense of combating the insidious effects of the Bill should it be passed. Speaker's ruling 138/4(c) makes it clear that if an extra charge might be imposed on the people the recommendation of the Crown is required - and we have not had a Crown opinion on the matter - Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member seems to be unable to comply with the Standing Orders, which state that a point of order must be expressed tersely. May I assist the member by saying that I understand his point of order to be that, because evidence has been presented to the committee, and to the House, that AIDS has reached epidemic proportions overseas, and will reach epidemic proportions in New Zealand, the passage of the Bill will involve an appropriation. Rt. Hon. Sir Robert Muldoon: No, the increase in the spread of AIDS will therefore cost more in terms of health expenditure. Mr SPEAKER: Have I correctly interpreted the member's point of order? Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: I am obliged to you, Mr Speaker. It is not the wish of the Committee or of the House to overrule your decision, but when the Bill was introduced you did not have that information. Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member is not speaking relevantly to the point of order. The wishes of the Committee are irrelevant to the ruling members are asking me to make. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: I appreciate your tolerance. I am obliged to you, not for my sake but for the sake of the issue. There was no determination by the Committee to overturn decisions, per se. Mr SPEAKER: Order! I am sorry, but the honourable member is embarking on irrelevant matters. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: You raised it. I am trying to help you. Mr SPEAKER: They are not relevant to the issue. FRAN WILDE (Wellington Central): The member has presented, as his so-called evidence, Department of Health submission No. 954 to the select committee that considered the Bill. He has quoted selectively from the submission. Members who have not read the submission should know that in it the Department of Health outlined the already established AIDS education and prevention programme. The submission does not suggest that the campaign cost will increase should the Bill be passed, but makes the contrary suggestion: " It is unlikely that the passing of this Bill will negatively influence the effectiveness of the proposed AIDS campaign." It is considered that there could be positive benefits from the campaign, which would depend for its success, to some extent, on good communication and the effective and open dissemination of information. The point was not that it would require the expenditure of extra Government money, but that the public environment that the Bill would create was important. The Government already has an AIDS programme in place. WINSTON PETERS (Tauranga): The distinction from your previous ruling is that changed circumstances could occasion an increased appropriation over a period. A strong case can be made out if the chronological evidence is considered. Since the Bill was introduced there has been an appropriation of about $3 million for that programme, and that is accepted. Mr SPEAKER: Order! I ask the member to come to the point at issue. He is being totally irrelevant. WINSTON PETERS: Perhaps I could come back and give you, Mr Speaker, the legal distinction that I sought to draw your attention to-that evidence may emerge from the Committee suggesting that appropriation has to take place either inside the House or outside it; but changing circumstances can also provide evidence that may lead you to change your ruling. There has been an appropriation, and that is the first standard. There is likely to be a further increase in that appropriation because of the increased incidence of AIDS. That is supported by overseas evidence that a liberalisation of the law has brought about an epidemic. Mr SPEAKER: Order! I have heard both sides of that argument. The member is trying to introduce a point about the effects of that on the incidence of AIDS as an argument as to whether the Bill is an appropriation. That is not appropriate. The member should produce evidence about the question - that is, whether the present position is any different from the position when the ruling was made that the Bill did not involve an appropriation. That is the only issue before the House. It is the difference between the evidence that was available then compared with the present evidence. What the evidence may be is not relevant - it is the altered evidence. WINSTON PETERS (Tauranga): I have been following your explanation, Mr Speaker, as to what would distinguish your ruling now as opposed to your previous ruling. Please turn your mind, if you can, in a legal manner, to the evidence in all the circumstances rather than the provision of evidence right now, which you well know cannot be given by any member of the House. Mr SPEAKER: The Speaker's ruling was given in the light of the circumstances that were widely known at the time. I have been requested to make a ruling on the fact that there was certain evidence that was unavailable to the Speaker at that time that has since become available to the House, which would justify a reversal of the Speaker's ruling. That is the matter before the House at present. There is no other question. The question is why that evidence is available now and was not available before. WINSTON PETERS: In a nutshell, the evidence is provided by the member for Wellington Central, who is on public record as saying that when the Bill is passed gays from overseas will come to New Zealand for a holiday to celebrate. That is my evidence. What more decisive evidence could one possibly need? FRAN WILDE (Wellington Central): I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I have been grossly misrepresented by the member for Tauranga and I ask that he be required to withdraw and apologise. He cannot produce any evidence that I have ever said that. JOHN BANKS: Did the member say that? FRAN WILDE: No, the member for Southern Maori said it. Mr SPEAKER: Order! The matters that can be seriously raised in this point of order have already been raised, unless members have matters that are relevant to the narrow point of why the evidence was not available to the Speaker and the people who advised the Speaker at the time the original decision was made. The matter does not involve what the evidence is. GEOFF BRAYBROOKE (Napier): I shall make my speech relevant and stick to the facts. When you originally ruled on this matter-when the Bill was introduced-I believed, and most members believed, that your ruling was correct. It certainly was correct for Part I, because there is no appropriation on decriminalisation, but the evidence that has come before the House, and before the whole of New Zealand, is that there has been an overwhelming cry against the Bill. You would not have known that, Mr Speaker, when the Bill was introduced. Parliament was subject to a petition with 750,000 signatures, the largest in the country's history. If the Bill is passed it will affect the Human Rights Commission, which is funded by the taxpayer, and is paid for by the Crown. There will be a whole stream of submissions to the Human Rights Commission. Even if there is only one-and there will be thousands-that in itself will cause a huge increase in the expenditure and vote for the commission. In my view a petition with more than 750,000 signatures proves there will be extra work for the commission. Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (St. Kilda): I suggest to you, Mr Speaker, that the contribution by the member for Napier has clarified the issues fairly well for the House in that, as he said, no appropriation is involved in Part I, which is the only part that has been passed by the Committee. It has been suggested to you, on the basis of evidence that cannot be adduced, that there may be some involvement of appropriation in Part II - WINSTON PETERS: Part I has been passed. Dr MICHAEL CULLEN: Part I has been passed in the Committee, but that is all, and it is agreed by the House that that is all that has happened. Part II has yet to be considered by the House, let alone voted on with any amendments. If anything happens in the Committee debate on Part II it can be dealt with later; it is not relevant now. Mr SPEAKER: I remind the member that he - along with the last two speakers-is not addressing the question that is in front of me, which is one of changed circumstances. I do not intend to allow any further contribution unless I hear some argument directed towards the circumstances I have to deal with. To date I have not been at all impressed. Dr MICHAEL CULLEN: I apologise, Mr Speaker. What I am trying to say is that there are no changed circumstances since you made your ruling. The only changed circumstances that could occur have yet to occur in the Committee. The point that should then be raised should be raised after the Committee stage. You may then have new evidence and new matters to consider, depending on the nature of amendments passed in the Committee. At this point there is no new evidence to suggest that you should change your ruling. Mr SPEAKER: That has raised a further point, which I shall deal with. Again I remind members-because my experience to date is that they are not addressing themselves to the point-that the issue is new evidence that was not available to the Speaker at the time. To traverse the nature of that evidence is irrelevant. Members should not do that. BRUCE TOWNSHEND (Kaimai): Mr Speaker, I will try to answer your request specifically. I suggest to you that the one change that has not been brought before you is that the evidence upon which the member for Papakura has made his claim is based on a paper that was presented to the select committee subsequent to your making that ruling, and in doing so-Mr SPEAKER: Order! That fact has already been drawn to my attention, and unless the member has some new evidence I ask him to resume his seat. BRUCE TOWNSHEND: I just want to make one more point. I suggest that as the new evidence has come forward it should be studied by you, Mr Speaker, and the Clerk of the House, to see if it is applicable. Mr SPEAKER: Order! Hon. FRANK O'FLYNN (Minister of State): All that has been suggested was neatly summarised by you in connection with the suggestion that there may be some increase in the spread of AIDS, and some increase in the Health vote to deal with that. That is a highly debatable point. Some members suggested that it may be so, while others suggested that it may not, and it is a highly debatable matter. It is not fresh evidence upon which the Chair should alter its previous ruling. GRAEME LEE (Hauraki): I submit to you that the specific evidence available now is different from that available at 3 March 1985. The evidence is contained in a written answer from the Minister of Health, and it is only 10 days old. The question to the Minister of Health related to the cost of the AIDS epidemic, and the figure quoted was $9. 9 million. That is a specific figure, and I suggest that it answers the question relating to the nature of the change in status of the Bill. It must be considered by the Chair as being directly related to the Bill, because 73 percent of homosexuality is related to the disease AIDS. Mr SPEAKER: Order! Information about the incidence of homosexuality was available to the Speaker or his advisers before the decision was made. Rt. Hon. Sir ROBERT MULDOON: You may be infallible, but you're not psychic! Mr SPEAKER: Order! I did not say that all the evidence was available to the Speaker; I said that it was available to the Speaker or his advisers. Some of those people who advise Speakers are the very people who have been named regarding this matter. As I understand it, no member is trying to overrule the original ruling given by the Chair, there has been no suggestion of that. However, it is suggested that because of new evidence that was not available to the Speaker or his advisers previously it has become apparent that an appropriation is involved that could not have been foreseen. My understanding is that it is alleged by those who are raising the matter that the inevitable consequence of the passing of the legislation will be an increased incidence of the venereal disease AIDS, and that a further appropriation of public moneys will be involved because of that. Those involved in the counter-argument are telling me that the evidence that has been presented from the same source is not that it will unequivocally produce that effect but that it may produce that effect, and that it may also allow a more effective public health campaign to be carried out. We then come to the question that has been raised of whether the public health campaign that will result from the legislation is an appropriation. An appropriation has already been made for that, which, presumably, takes into account all the contingencies involved. Therefore that cost will not fall more heavily because of the passage of the legislation. We then come to the question raised by the member for Napier-whether the expected increased incidence of the work of the Human Rights Commission will involve an appropriation. I should need proof that the passage of the legislation would involve not just a more active engagement of those employed by the Human Rights Commission-which might be one result of the Bill - but that further staff would have to be employed to deal with the matter. No evidence has been brought to me that that would be the result. In the circumstances - because the evidence brought forward to the House is equivocal-for the Chair to make a decision against the advice that has been given to date, which is quite extensive, would be for it to enter into the argument. It would be to make a decision that favoured one side contrary to the advice that had been given to the Chair. For that reason I do not intend to alter the original decision given by the Chair-that the Bill does not involve an appropriation. WINSTON PETERS (Tauranga): I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The present legal position is that a person who wishes to allege discrimination on the grounds of homosexual preference may not bring a case to the Human Rights Commission. Mr SPEAKER: Order! It would be a great help to me if the member-who, after all, is legally qualified-would draw my attention to the Standing Order under which he is raising the point of order. His words to date do not indicate to me that there is any Standing Order or Speaker's ruling to which I should direct my attention. WINSTON PETERS: The Speaker's ruling concerned is the one you have just given. I can substantiate that on the ground that the ruling you have just given was that the parts of the Bill that concern the Human Rights Commission will not occasion extra appropriation. I can prove categorically that they will do so. Mr SPEAKER: Order! I have not given a ruling about what the activities of the Human Rights Commission will be; what I have given is a ruling that the Bill does not involve an appropriation. I have given a ruling that to form a judgment one way or the other on the evidence presented to me would be to fly in the face of the advice given to me by dispassionate people, and to take the part of one side or the other of this argument. If the member is raising as his point of order, the most recent ruling given by the Chair for the purpose of questioning that ruling, I remind him that that is a most disorderly procedure. WINSTON PETERS: I am relying entirely on the words of your ruling to justify the point of order. Mr SPEAKER: Again, I ask the member to draw my attention to the Standing Order of which the House appears to him to be in breach. WINSTON PETERS: No, sir, I am relying in the point of order on a Speaker's ruling-your ruling, that you have just given. Mr SPEAKER: Do you intend to bring that ruling into question? WINSTON PETERS: No, sir. Mr SPEAKER: What is your purpose? WINSTON PETERS: Your ruling gave the clear explanation to the House that if it could be proved evidentially that the passage of the Bill would require a greater appropriationMr SPEAKER: Order! I am sorry: without a doubt, as every member of the House must be aware, the member is bringing my ruling into question. WINSTON PETERS: If you have been hoist by your own verbal petard, that is your problem. Mr SPEAKER: Order! Machinery is available to question my ruling, but that is not to be done by the procedure the member wishes to use. I have given my ruling, and that is final. Rt. Hon. Sir ROBERT MULDOON (Tamaki): I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. For the benefit of the House, and later the Committee, can I take it from your ruling that if some member is now able to produce concrete evidence of the matters that have been alleged that is acceptable to your advisers you would be prepared at a later stage of the Bill to rule again on whether an appropriation is involved? In other words, we can carry on with the Committee, but if members were able to put solid evidence in front of you and your advisers you would, if necessary, reconsider the matter. Mr SPEAKER: Yes, it is a matter that can be raised until the third reading, because circumstances could change subsequent to a ruling. However, the kind of evidence needed to overrule a Speaker's ruling is not that based on opinion but evidence based on fact. Rt. Hon. Sir ROBERT MULDOON: Facts that weren't available previously? Mr SPEAKER: Yes, but not opinion. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON (Papakura): I raise a fresh point of order, Mr SpeakerMr SPEAKER: Is it a fresh and entirely different point of order? Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: No, Mr Speaker, it is not entirely different. [Interruption.] Well, they can giggle. I believe that in this matter we are very much paving the way for subsequent legislation of this kindMr SPEAKER: Order! It would be of great help to me if the member could draw my attention to the Standing Order or Speaker's ruling that he wants to discuss-and it may not be a ruling immediately given by theSpeaker. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: I refer once more to Speaker's ruling 138/4. The difficulty is foretold by Speaker Statham, who said that it was not a matter of producing hard evidence at a particular point. That was the difficulty for the House when the Bill was introduced. Only 13 of the 95 members spoke, and one can work out the percentage. There was not sufficient evidence for the SpeakerMr SPEAKER: Order! I am being forced to the opinion that the member intends that I should reverse my ruling. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: No. Mr SPEAKER: Well, I ask him to tell me the remedy he wants to achieve. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: In relation to your ruling of 9 April 1986, that of necessity now has to beMr SPEAKER: I am asking the member what remedy he seeks. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: Well, simply this - [Interruption.] There they go. They would spend the taxpayers' money like pouring water out of a tap, and that is the point at issue tonight. Mr SPEAKER: Order! Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: Well, they interjected, sir. The remedy I seek is an assurance that the matters raised in Speakers' ruling 138/4, 139/1, and 17/1 are not left in abeyanceMr SPEAKER: Those Speakers' rulings relate to private members' Bills and taxation. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: No. Mr SPEAKER: I advise the member to look up the context of those rulings. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: What is a taxing Bill, and what is not? Mr SPEAKER: I have already taken the trouble to make myself familiar with the position. WINSTON PETERS (Tauranga): I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek clarification of the standard of evidence you require, so I am not in any way challenging any ruling you have made. Given the use of the words " implied appropriation", what standard of evidence would you regard as being sufficient to change the rulings you have given? Mr SPEAKER: That would depend on the circumstances. The Speaker does not make decisions such as that without guidance from the appropriate authorities. I am not in a position to say now what the evidence-if it is brought forward by the appropriate authorities - may be. Committee resumed Part II. Amendments of Human Rights Commission Act 1977 (continued). House resumed. The CHAIRMAN: Mr Speaker, the Committee on the Homosexual Law Reform Bill has directed me to report progress, and has also directed me to ask leave to sit again. Mr SPEAKER: The Chairman of Committees reports that the Committee has directed him to report progress on the Homosexual Law Reform Bill and has also directed him to ask leave to sit again. The question is, That the report be agreed to. The House divided on the question, That the report be agreed to. Ayes 37 Anderton; Austin, M. E.; Bassett; Boorman; Burke; Butcher, Caygill; Clark; Colman; Cullen; Dillon; Douglas; Dunne; Elder; Fraser, Gair; Gerbic; Goff; Gregory; Keall; King; McKinnon; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Neilson; Northey; Palmer; Richardson; Shirley; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Terris; Tizard; Upton; Woollaston; Tellers: Mallard; Wilde. Noes 33 Angus; Austin, H. N.; Austin, W. R.; Banks; Birch; Bolger, Braybrooke; Burdon; Cooper, East; Gerard; Graham; Gray; Jones; Knapp; Luxton; McClay; McLay; McTigue; Marshall, D. W. A.; Maxwell, R. F. H.; Morrison; Muldoon; Peters; Smith; Talbot; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Wallbank; Wellington; Young, T. J.; Young, V. S. Tellers: Friedlander; Lee. Majority For: 4 Report agreed to. The House adjourned at 11. 6 p. m. Vol. 470

IRN: 7841
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_homosexual_law_reform_bill_committee_of_whole_house_continued_26_march_1986.html
TITLE: Homosexual Law Reform Bill - Committee of whole House continued (26 March 1986)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 26 March 1986
YEAR: 1986
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 26 March 1986, New Zealand Parliament. Mr SPEAKER: I am aware of the considerable number of amendments before the Committee and of the close similarity of many of them. For that reason I have asked the Clerk of the House, in association with the parliamentary counsel, to prepare a schedule of those amendments in an order that will allow a rational consideration of the issues involved in each amendment, if they are carried out in that order. The schedule will be made available to all members of the Committee. The House may not instruct the Committee on the matter, but I have asked the Clerk to have the schedule prepared and distributed to members so that they will know that all other members have that information in front of them. In Committee Debate resumed from 19 March 1986. Part I. Amendments of Crimes Act 1961 (continued). DOUG KIDD (Marlborough) moved, That the question be now put. The CHAIRMAN declined to accept the motion. FRED GERBIC (Onehunga) moved, That the question be now put. The CHAIRMAN declined to accept the motion. PHILIP WOOLLASTON (Nelson) moved, That the question be now put. The CHAIRMAN declined to accept the motion. TREVOR MALLARD (Hamilton West) moved, That the question be now put. The CHAIRMAN declined to accept the motion. REG BOORMAN (Wairarapa) moved, That the question be now put. The Committee divided on the question, That the question be now put. Ayes 55 Anderton; Austin, M. E.; Bassett; Batchelor; Boorman; Burdon; Burke; Butcher, Caygill; Clark; Cullen; de Cleene; Dunne; Elder, Fraser, Friedlander; Gair, Gerard; Gerbic; Goff; Graham; Gray; Gregory; Hercus; Hunt; Isbey; Jeffries; Keall; Kidd; King; Luxton; McKinnon; McLean; Mallard; Marshall, C. R.; Moyle; Neilson; Northey; O'Flynn; O'Regan; Palmer; Prebble; Richardson; Rodger, Scott; Shields; Shirley; Smith; Sutton, J. R.; Tapsell; Tizard; Wilde; Young, V. S. Tellers: Matthewson; Woollaston. Noes 15 Austin, H. N.; Banks; Birch; Jones; Knapp; McClay; McTigue; Peters; Storey; Tirikatene Sullivan; Wallbank; Wellington; Young, T. J. Tellers: Braybrooke; Lee. Majority for: 40 Motion agreed to. Hon. STAN RODGER (Minister of Labour) moved, in proposed new section 140A in clause 3, to delete the words " 16 years", wherever they appeared, and to substitute the words " 20 years". The Committee divided on the question, That the amendment be agreed to. Ayes 17 Batchelor, Burdon; Gerard; Graham; Kidd; Luxton; McClay; McKinnon; McLean; O'Flynn; Richardson; Storey; Townshend; Young, T. J.; Young, V. S. Tellers: Austin. M. E.; Rodger. Noes 57 Anderton; Austin, H. N.; Banks; Bassett; Birch; Boorman; Braybrooke; Burke; Butcher; Caygill; Clark; Cooper; Cullen; de Cleene; Douglas; Dunne; Elder, Fraser, Friedlander; Gair; Gerbic; Goff; Gray; Gregory; Hercus; Hunt; Isbey; Jeffries; Jones; Keall; King; Knapp; Lee; McTigue; Mallard; Marshall, C. R.; Moyle; Neilson; Northey; O'Regan; Palmer; Peters; Prebble; Scott; Shields; Shirley; Smith; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Tapsell; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Tizard; Wallbank; Wellington; Wilde. Tellers: Matthewson; Woollaston. Majority against: 40 Amendment negatived. Hon. GEORGE GAIR (Deputy leader of the Opposition) moved, in proposed new section 140A in clause 3, to delete the words " 16 years", wherever they appeared, and to substitute the words " 18 years". The Committee divided on the question, That the amendment be agreed to. Ayes 20 Austin, M. E.; Batchelor; Elder; Gerard; Gerbic; Graham; Gregory; Jeffries; Luxton; McKinnon; McLean; O'Flynn; O'Regan; Smith; Storey; Sutton, J. R.; Wall; Young, T. J. Tellers: Gair; Townshend. Noes 57 Anderton; Austin, H. N.; Banks; Bassett; Birch; Boorman; Braybrooke; Burdon; Burke; Butcher, Caygill; Clark; Cooper; Cullen; de Cleene; Douglas; Dunne; Falloon; Fraser, Friedlander, Goff; Gray; Hercus; Hunt; Isbey; Jones; Keall; Kidd; King; Knapp; Lee; McClay; McTigue; Mallard; Marshall, C. R.; Moyle; Muldoon; Neilson; Northey; Palmer, Peters; Prebble; Richardson; Rodger; Scott; Shields; Shirley; Sutton, W. D.; Tapsell; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Tizard; Wallbank; Wellington; Wilde; Young, V. S. Tellers: Matthewson; Woollaston. Majority against: 37 Amendment negatived. Mr TREVOR YOUNG (Eastern Hutt) moved to delete clause 3. The Committee divided on the question, That the amendment be agreed to. Ayes 24 Batchelor, Braybrooke; Burdon; Cooper, Falloon; Friedlander, Gerard; Gray; Jeffries; Luxton; McClay; McKinnon; McLean; O'Flynn; O'Regan; Peters; Rodger; Smith; Storey; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Townshend; Young, V. S. Tellers: Richardson; Young, T. J. Noes 51 Anderton; Austin, H. N.; Austin, M. E.; Banks; Bassett; Birch; Boorman; Burke; Butcher; Caygill; Clark; Cullen; de Cleene; Douglas; Dunne; Elder; Fraser, Gair; Gerbic; Goff; Graham; Gregory; Hercus; Hunt; Isbey; Jones; Keall; Kidd; King; Knapp; Lee; McTigue; Mallard; Marshall, C. R.; Moyle; Muldoon; Neilson; Northey; Palmer; Prebble; Scott; Shields; Shirley; Sutton, J. R.; Tapsell; Tizard; Wallbank; Wellington; Wilde. Tellers: Matthewson; Woollaston. Majority against: 27 Amendment negatived. Hon. STAN RODGER (Minister of Labour) moved, in proposed new section 141 in clause 4, to delete the words " 16 years", wherever they appeared, and to substitute the words " 20 years". The Committee divided on the question, That the amendment be agreed to. Ayes 17 Batchelor, Falloon; Gerard; Graham; Kidd; Luxton; McClay; McKinnon; McLean; O'Flynn; Richardson; Storey; Townshend; Young, T. J.; Young, V. S. Tellers: Austin, M. E.; Rodger. Noes 59 Anderton; Austin, H. N.; Banks; Bassett; Birch; Boorman; Braybrooke; Burdon; Burke; Butcher, Caygill; Clark; Cooper, Cullen; de Cleene; Douglas; Dunne; Elder, Fraser, Friedlander; Gair, Gerbic; Goff; Gray; Gregory; Hercus; Hunt; Isbey; Jeffries; Jones; Keall; King; Knapp; Lee; McTigue; Mallard; Marshall, C. R.; Moyle; Muldoon; Neilson; Northey; O'Regan; Palmer; Peters; Prebble; Scott; Shields; Shirley; Smith; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Tapsell; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Tizard; Wallbank; Wellington; Wilde. Tellers: Matthewson; Woollaston. Majority against: 42 Amendment negatived. TREVOR MALLARD (Hamilton West) moved, in proposed new section 142(6) and (7) in clause 5, to insert the words " subsection (1)(a) of" after the words " charge under". Amendment agreed to. Dr BILL SUTTON (Hawke's Bay) moved, in proposed new section 142 in clause 5, to delete the words " 16 years", wherever they appeared, and to substitute the words " 18 years". The Committee divided on the question, That the amendment be agreed to. Ayes 14 Austin, M. E.; Batchelor, Elder; Gair; Graham; Jeffries; Luxton; McKinnon; McLean; O'Flynn; Storey; Townshend. Tellers: Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D. Noes 61 Anderton; Austin, H. N.; Banks; Bassett; Birch; Boorman; Braybrooke; Burdon; Burke; Butcher, Caygill; Clark; Cooper; Cullen; de Cleene; Douglas; Dunne; Falloon; Fraser; Friedlander, Gerbic; Goff; Gray; Gregory; Hercus; Hunt; Isbey; Jones; Keall; Kidd; King; Knapp; Lee; McClay; McTigue; Mallard; Marshall, C. R.; Moyle; Muldoon; Neilson; Northey; O'Regan; Palmer; Peters; Prebble; Richardson; Rodger, Scott; Shields; Shirley; Smith; Tapsell; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Tizard; Wallbank; Wellington; Wilde; Young, T. J.; Young, V. S. Tellers: Matthewson; Woollaston. Majority against: 47 Amendment negatived. PHILIP BURDON (Fendalton) moved to delete clauses, 3, 4, and 5, and to insert the following new clause: 5A. Defence to charges under sections 141 and 142 - (1) The principal Act is hereby amended by inserting, after section 142, the following section: " 142A. It shall be a defence to a charge under section 141 or section 142 of this Act if the person charged proves"(a) That the other party consented; and “(b) That the other party was of or over the age of 20 years or that the person charged had reasonable cause to believe, and did believe, that the other party was of or over that age." (2) Section 141(3) of the principal Act is hereby amended by inserting, before the words " it is no defence", the words " Subject to section 142A of this Act,". (3) Section 142(4) of the principal Act is hereby amended by inserting, before the words " It is no defence", the words “Subject to section 142A of this Act,”. The Committee divided on the question, That the amendment be agreed to. Ayes 18 Austin, M. E.; Batchelor; Falloon; Gair; Graham; Jeffries; Kidd; Luxton; McKinnon; McLean; Rodger; Smith; Storey; Townshend; Young, T. J.; Young, V. S. Tellers: Burdon; Richardson. Noes 56 Anderton; Austin, H. N.; Banks; Bassett; Birch; Boorman; Braybrooke; Burke; Butcher, Caygill; Clark; Cooper; Cullen; de Cleene; Douglas; Dunne; Elder; Fraser, Friedlander, Gerbic; Goff; Gray; Gregory; Hercus; Hunt; Isbey; Jones; Keall; King; Knapp; Lee; McClay; McTigue; Mallard; Marshall, C. R.; Moyle; Muldoon; Neilson; Northey; O'Regan; Palmer, Peters; Prebble; Scott; Shields; Shirley; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Tapsell; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Tizard; Wallbank; Wellington; Wilde. Tellers: Matthewson; Woollaston. Majority against: 38 Amendment negatived. Hon. FRANK O'FLYNN (Minister of Defence) moved to insert the following new clause: 7A. Savings in respect of Armed Forces(1) Nothing in this Part of this Act shall affect the interpretation or application of section 42(b) of the Armed Forces Discipline Act 1971 (which relates to behaving in a disgraceful and indecent manner), and any behaviour that would have constituted an offence against that provision before the passing of this Act shall constitute an offence against that provision notwithstanding the passing of this Act. (2) Every person who commits any act that, but for the passing of this Act, would have constituted a civil offence within the meaning of section 74 of the Armed Forces Discipline Act 1971 shall be guilty of an offence against that section notwithstanding the passing of this Act, and shall be liable to the same punishment as that person would have been liable to under subsection (2) of that section had this Act not been passed: Provided that, in the case of an act that, but for the passing of this Act, would have constituted a crime against paragraph (b) or paragraph (c) of section 141(1), or section 142, of the principal Act, the maximum punishment that may be imposed shall be 3 years' imprisonment. The Committee divided on the question, That new clause 7A be agreed to. Ayes 40 Austin, H. N.; Austin, M. E.; Banks; Batchelor, Birch; Braybrooke; Burdon; Cooper, Falloon; Friedlander; Gair, Gerard; Graham; Gray; Jeffries; Jones; Knapp; Lee; Luxton; McClay; McKinnon; McLean; McTigue; Muldoon; Palmer, Peters; Prebble; Richardson; Rodger, Smith; Storey; Tapsell; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Townshend; Wallbank; Wellington; Young, T. J.; Young, V. S. Tellers: Kidd; O'Flynn. Noes 36 Anderton; Bassett; Boorman; Burke; Butcher, Caygill; Clark; Cullen; de Cleene; Douglas; Dunne; Elder; Fraser, Gerbic; Goff; Gregory; Hercus; Hunt; Isbey; Keall; King; Mallard; Marshall, C. R.; Moyle; Neilson; Northey; O'Regan; Scott; Shields; Shirley; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Tizard; Wilde. Tellers: Matthewson; Woollaston. Majority for: 4 New clause agreed to. The Committee divided on the question, That Part I as amended be agreed to. Ayes 41 Anderton; Bassett; Batchelor, Boorman; Burke; Butcher; Caygill; Clark; Cullen; de Cleene; Douglas; Dunne; Elder; Fraser; Gerbic; Goff; Gregory; Hercus; Hunt; Isbey; Jeffries; Keall; King; Mallard; Marshall, C. R.; Moyle; Neilson; Northey; O'Flynn; O'Regan; Palmer, Prebble; Scott; Shields; Shirley; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Tizard; Wilde. Tellers: Matthewson; Woollaston. Noes 36 Austin, H. N.; Austin, M. E.; Banks; Birch; Bolger, Burdon; Cooper; Falloon; Friedlander, Gair, Gerard; Graham; Gray; Jones; Kidd; Knapp; Luxton; McClay; McKinnon; McLean; McTigue; Muldoon; Peters; Richardson; Rodger; Smith; Storey; Tapsell; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Townshend; Wallbank; Wellington; Young, T. J.; Young, V. S. Tellers: Braybrooke; Lee. Majority for: 5 Part I as amended agreed to. Part II. Amendments of Human Rights Commission Act 1977 Progress reported. The House adjourned at 10. 56 p. m.

IRN: 7840
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_homosexual_law_reform_bill_committee_of_whole_house_continued_19_march_1986.html
TITLE: Homosexual Law Reform Bill - Committee of whole House continued (19 March 1986)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 19 March 1986
YEAR: 1986
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 19 March 1986, New Zealand Parliament. In Committee Debate resumed from 5 March 1986. 7. 45 p. m. Part I. Amendments of Crimes Act 1961 (continued). GRAEME LEE (Hauraki) moved to add to the motion the words " except Part I". TREVOR MALLARD (Hamilton West) moved, That the question be now put. The Committee divided on the question, That the question be now put. Ayes 42 Anderton; Austin, M. E.; Bassett; Batchelor; Burke; Caygill; Clark; Cullen; de Cleene; Dillon; Douglas; Dunne; Elder; Fraser; Gerbic; Goff; Graham; Gregory; Hercus; Hunt; Isbey; Jeffries; Keall; King; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Maxwell, R. K.; Neilson; Northey; O'Flynn; Palmer; Prebble; Shields; Shirley; Sutton, J. R.; Tapsell; Tizard; Wetere; Wilde; Young, T. J. Tellers: Mallard; Woollaston. Noes 27 Austin, H. N.; Austin, W. R.; Birch; Bolger; Burdon; Cox; East; Friedlander; Gair; Gerard; Gray; Jones; Kidd; Knapp; Luxton; McClay; McLay; McLean; Morrison; Muldoon; Storey; Talbot; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Wellington; Young, V. S. Tellers: Banks; Lee. Majority for: 15 Motion agreed to. The committee divided on the question, That the amendment be agreed to. Ayes 25 Austin, H. N.; Austin, W. R.; Birch; Bolger; East; Friedlander; Gerard; Gray; Jones; Kidd; Knapp; Luxton; McClay; McLay; McLean; Morrison; Muldoon; Storey; Talbot; Tapsell; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Wellington; Young, T. J. Tellers: Banks; Lee. Noes 43 Anderton; Austin, M. E.; Bassett; Batchelor; Burke; Caygill; Clark; Cox; Cullen; de Cleene; Dillon; Douglas; Dunne; Elder; Fraser, Gair; Gerbic; Goff; Graham; Gregory; Hercus; Hunt; Isbey; Jeffries; Keall; King; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Maxwell, R. K.; Neilson; Northey; O'Flynn; Palmer; Prebble; Shirley; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Tizard; Wetere; Wilde; Young, V. S. Tellers: Mallard; Woollaston. Majority against: 18 Amendment negatived. The CHAIRMAN put the question that the following amendment, previously handed to the table by Mr Lee (Hauraki), be agreed to: To add to the motion the words “except clauses 4 to 6". Amendment negatived, and motion to consider the Bill part by part agreed to. Progress reported. The House adjourned at 10. 57 p. m.

IRN: 7839
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_homosexual_law_reform_bill_committee_of_whole_house_5_march_1986.html
TITLE: Homosexual Law Reform Bill - Committee of whole House (5 March 1986)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 5 March 1986
YEAR: 1986
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 5 March 1986, New Zealand Parliament. Debate resumed from 20 November 1985. Clause 1. Short Title and commencement (continued).[A dispute having arisen, the member for Papakura withdrew from the Chamber on the instruction of the Chairman of Committees.][A dispute having arisen, the member for Tamaki withdrew from the Chamber on the instruction of the Chairman of Committees.] The Committee divided on the question, That the amendments set out in Supplementary Order Paper 71 be agreed to. Ayes 23 Angus; Austin, H. N.; Austin, W. R.; Batchelor, Birch; Bolger; Falloon; Friedlander; Jones; Kidd; Luxton; McClay; McTigue; Morrison; Muldoon; Peters; Storey; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Wallbank; Wellington; Young, T. J. Tellers: Banks; Lee. Noes 51 Anderton; Austin, M. E.; Bassett; Boorman; Burdon; Butcher, Caygill; Clark; Colman; Cox; Cullen; de Cleene; Dillon; Douglas; Dunne; East; Fraser; Gair; Gerard; Gerbic; Goff; Graham; Gray; Gregory; Hercus; Hunt; Isbey; Keall; King; McKinnon; McLay; McLean; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Maxwell, R. K.; Northey; O'Flynn; O'Regan; Palmer; Prebble; Rodger; Shields; Shirley; Smith; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Tizard; Woollaston; Young, V. S. Tellers: Mallard; Wilde. Majority against: 28 Amendments negatived. The Committee divided on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to. Ayes 47 Anderton; Austin, M. E.; Bassett; Batchelor; Boorman; Burdon; Butcher; Caygill; Clark; Colman; Cox; Cullen; de Cleene; Dillon; Douglas; Dunne; Fraser; Gair; Gerbic; Goff; Graham; Gregory; Hercus; Hunt; Isbey; Keall; King; McKinnon; McLean; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Maxwell, R. K.; Northey; O'Flynn; O'Regan; Palmer; Prebble; Rodger; Shields; Shirley; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Tizard; Woollaston; Young, V. S. Tellers: Mallard; Wilde. Noes 27 Angus; Austin, H. N.; Austin, W. R.; Birch; Bolger; East; Falloon; Friedlander; Gerard; Gray; Jones; Kidd; Luxton; McClay; McLay; McTigue; Morrison; Muldoon; Peters; Smith; Storey; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Wallbank; Wellington; Young, T. J. Tellers: Banks; Lee. Majority for: 20 Clause agreed to. Part 1. Amendments of Crimes Act 1961. JACK LUXTON (Matamata), on a point of order, said that an instruction from the House had to be worded in specific terms, but the motion moved on 20 November had been: " That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Homosexual Law Reform Bill that it may consider the Bill part by part". Unless members had voted on whether the Bill should be taken part by part the Chairman had an obligation to consider it clause by clause. The CHAIRMAN: I agree that this is a matter for the discretion and the decision of the Committee, which has the power under the resolution passed by the House to consider the Bill part by part if that is its decision. FRAN WILDE (Wellington Central) moved, That in accordance with the power conferred on the Committee by way of instruction the Homosexual Law Reform Bill be considered part by part. GRAEME LEE (Hauraki), on a point of order, asked whether the four 5-minute speeches allowed under the Standing Orders on each clause could be extended by the Chairman in the course of the debate should the Committee decide to discuss the Bill part by part. The CHAIRMAN: Standing Order 286 applies and is quite clear: any question before the Committee-including the part by part consideration of a Bill in the Committee stage-is allowed 4 speeches of 5 minutes' duration. JACK LUXTON (Matamata), on a point of order, said that it was normal for a specific instruction to be given to the Committee by the House. That could be done on a clear majority of the House. It was his understanding that when the Committee was deciding to take a Bill part by part the question was put directly by the Chair. If one member of the Committee objected the Bill would be taken clause by clause. The CHAIRMAN: The question as to the Bill's being considered part by part was not a clear instruction from the House; rather, the House had given the Committee the power to consider the Bill part by part should it want to do so. When the Committee had reached the stage at which a part by part consideration of the Bill was appropriate I moved that Part I stand part, whereupon there was a point of order on the nature of the instruction to the Committee, followed by a formal motion by the member in charge of the Bill. At that stage the question before the Committee was that the Bill should be considered part by part. Rt. Hon. Sir ROBERT MULDOON (Tamaki), on a point of order, said that the resolution of the House had stated that the Committee " may" take the Bill part by part. The Chairman had said that there was a resolution to do that, but he had not ruled on the point made by the member for Matamata, that it was not possible in the Committee of the whole House to do that by resolution, as it had to be done by leave, and one voice could stop it. That was a very important issue upon which, if necessary, the Chairman should take the advice of Mr Speaker. It was an important matter if the Committee of the whole House purported to take powers to itself which, under the precedents of the House, it was not entitled to take. Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (St. Kilda), said, on the point of order, that the procedure the House had followed had been adopted in relation to the Goods and Services Tax Bill in 1985. A permissive motion had been moved to enable the Committee to consider whether the Bill should be taken part by part. It had not meant that the Committee had to take the Bill part by part. In McGee, at page 251, it was stated: " An instruction to a committee of the whole House is an abstract motion. . . . The committee... merely has power conferred upon it to do these things if it sees fit." Whether or not the Committee saw fit was a matter for resolution by the Committee and was therefore a motion to be debated within the Committee. There was no suggestion that the matter should be resolved by leave. That procedure would empower a single member to thwart the will of the overwhelming majority. The matter was one to be settled by debate, resolution, and division within the Committee. The CHAIRMAN: It is fairly clear that, in the past, when there has been an instruction from the House that the Committee may consider a Bill part by part, it has been considered an instruction that not only empowers the Committee but obliges it. The member for Matamata is quite right. When a voice has been raised in dissent it is then a question for the Committee to decide. A voice was raised in this instance, and, there having been dissent, it was then appropriate for the member for Wellington Central to move as she did. The Committee has the power if it wishes to exercise it. Since it has the power, it is in the process now of deciding whether it wishes to exercise it. JACK LUXTON (Matamata) moved, That progress be reported, to obtain the Speaker's ruling on the instruction to the Committee.[A dispute having arisen, the Chairman of Committees named the member for Whangarei.] Progress reported. House resumed. The CHAIRMAN: I report progress so that I can advise you that under Standing Order 193 I have been obliged to name a member-namely, the member for Whangarei-for a sequence of events during which he repeatedly challenged the authority of the Chair and left me with no alternative but to move under Standing Order 193. Mr SPEAKER: No doubt members have taken the opportunity to familiarise themselves with Standing Order 193. I draw to their attention the last three lines in particular: “... and the Speaker shall, on a motion being made thereupon, put the same question, without amendment or debate, as if the offence had been committed in the House itself". There is no provision under that Standing Order for the Speaker to do any other single thing. If members are in any doubt about that they should reread the Standing Order. Therefore, in accordance with the requirement of Standing Order 193, I call upon the Leader of the House. Hon. VENN YOUNG (Waitotara): I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Committee has been debating a very difficult proposal - Mr SPEAKER: Order! We are dealing with a very serious matter, and I remind the member for Waitotara that the ultimate purpose of a point of order is to ask for some action to be taken or relief to be given by the Chair. To raise a spurious point of order is highly disorderly-by that, I mean a point of order that does not have the purpose to which I have just referred. I have drawn the attention of the House to the limitations of the Speaker's ability in the matter. The requirements of the Standing Order are absolute, and admit no departure from the procedure laid down. As long as the member for Waitotara is fully aware of that, is not involved in a spurious point of order, and concludes it by requesting some action from the Chair that would make the point of order totally in order, he may continue. Hon. VENN YOUNG: The heading for Standing Order 193 is " Member may be suspended after being named". It does not say that the member shall be suspended after being named. That being the case, the Speaker has the discretion to take into account the circumstances that led to the naming of the member. JACK LUXTON (Matamata): I draw your attention to the circumstances that led up to the incident. I moved a motion under Standing Order 289, and I refer you to the ruling - Mr SPEAKER: Order! I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member, but no provision exists for the Speaker to review decisions that have been made by the Chairman in Committee. If there is dispute about whether correct procedural matters have been followed, it is in the authority of the Chair to review the procedure of the Committee of which the Chairman happens to be part in the light of the greater responsibility to the House; however, in the actual conduct of the proceedings of the Committee, the Chairman is in exactly the same position and has the same authority as the Speaker in the House. The Standing Orders and Speakers' Rulings specifically disallow the Speaker to review in any way a decision that has been made by the Chairman in matters of that account. Having stated that and explained the position I shall allow the member to raise his point of order, but he should bear that in mind and also remember that a spurious point of order is disorderly. JACK LUXTON (Matamata): I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I have no intention to making a spurious point of order. I draw your attention to Standing Order 289. I moved that the Chairman of Committees report progress to take a Speaker's ruling. The Chairman had no alternative but to call the Speaker. Standing Order 289 states: " A motion may be made during the proceedings of a committee of the whole House that the Chairman report progress in order to obtain the Speaker's ruling on some question raised therein. Such a motion shall be put forthwith without amendment or debate." After I had moved the motion-and that was the start of the sequence-the Chairman proceeded as if the Committee was still sitting. My argument is that the moment the motion was moved the Chairman had no further business in the Chair and had to call the Speaker to rule on the matter that I wanted resolved. I have a right to have my point of order dealt with first. Mr SPEAKER: I take cognisance of the matter the member has raised - that a motion was before the Committee that the Chairman report progress in order to obtain a Speaker's ruling. Of that I have no knowledge-it has not been reported to me - but if that were so that matter has still to be resolved by the Committee. The Committee is master of its own destiny until the motion has been put and passed-the mere putting of the motion does not involve the recall of the Speaker. Nothing in the Standing Orders states that it is any different from any other motion. That being so, the question of disorder apparently arose, from the Chairman's report, before the motion had been put. Therefore the Committee was still in control of its own affairs. A matter of disorder takes precedence over all other matters, and it is such a matter that the Chairman has reported to me. After it resumes, the Committee is free to decide whether to seek a ruling from the Chair on any matter. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON (Papakura): I should like to make two points: one has already been mentioned by the member for Matamata, and I raise it in the form of a question to you. What happens if the first part of a two-part sequence of events - the first of which is unresolved-leads to the suspension or the naming of a member? I do not see how we can separate them, but my question is whether we can do that. I now refer to Standing Order 193, which you are required to administer in the second part. It is subtitled " Member may be suspended after being named". That leaves a question to be answered about the word " may": in the text of the Standing Order it is stated that the Chairman " shall", the Speaker “shall”, and so on. I believe that the Standing Order is deficient in that the subtitle has the operative verb “may” and the word “shall” is used in the text. The question before the House is not whether he shall be named, but whether he may be named. In arriving at an answer to that, should we not take into account the actions that preceded the member's being named-particularly if, in the opinion of the Committee, the matter might not have been handled judiciously, for whatever reason. Mr SPEAKER: There is no difficulty about the matter at all. First, it is not a question of whether a member may be named; it is that the member may be suspended. The process of naming is one of the steps to be taken in suspending a member. The doubt that may exist has nothing to do with the text of Standing Order 193; the doubt that exists is whether the House will sustain that motion. It is not a decision of the Chair; it is not a decision of the Chairman of Committees; and it is not a decision of the Speaker-as it is on other occasions whether suspension is being considered. On this occasion it is a decision of the House, and no one may prejudge what the decision of the House will be. The member having been named, the Standing Order states that he may be suspended; that is where the element of doubt sets in. Hon. RICHARD PREBBLE (Minister of Transport): I move, That the member for Whangarei be suspended from the service of the House. The House divided on the question, That the motion be agreed to. Ayes 44 Anderton; Austin, M. E.; Bassett; Batchelor; Boorman; Butcher; Caygill; Clark; Colman; de Cleene; Dillon; Douglas; Dunne; Fraser; Gerbic; Goff; Gregory; Hercus; Hunt; Isbey; Keall; King; Mallard; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Maxwell, R. K.; Neilson; Northey; O'Flynn; Palmer; Prebble; Rodger; Shields; Shirley; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Terris; TirikateneSullivan; Tizard; Wallbank; Woollaston; Young, T. J. Tellers: Cullen; Wilde. Noes 31 Angus; Austin, H. N; Austin, W. R.; Banks; Birch; Bolger; Burdon; Cox; East; Falloon; Friedlander; Gair; Gerard; Graham; Gray; Jones; Kidd; Lee; Luxton; McLay; McLean; McTigue; Morrison; Muldoon; O'Regan; Smith; Storey; Wellington; Young, V. S. Tellers: McClay; McKinnon. Majority for: 13 Motion agreed to. Hon. TONY FRIEDLANDER (New Plymouth): I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You may recall that when the Chairman of Committees was reporting on the matter that has now been dispensed with, the issue that led to that incident was that the member for Matamata sought to have a matter reported back. I ask you to rule on that. Mr SPEAKER: I have no knowledge of that matter except what has been reported to me by the member for Matamata. If the Committee intends to pursue that matter I have no doubt that I will hear about it by the appropriate means, which are laid down in the Standing Orders. Committee resumed. JACK LUXTON (Matamata) moved, That progress be reported. Motion agreed to. House resumed. The CHAIRMAN: Mr Speaker, I have been asked to report progress and to seek your ruling on a matter that arose during the Committee's consideration of the instruction given to it by the House, " That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Homosexual Law Reform Bill that it may consider the Bill part by part." During the discussion on the instruction the point was raised that in the past the matter had been dealt with by leave, whereas, on a motion moved by the member in charge of the Bill, the Committee proceeded to debate the question that the Bill should be debated part by part. Several members have raised objection to that procedure, on the basis that it does not conform with precedent. Other members have pointed out that as recently as last year, on the Goods and Services Tax Bill, that was a way in which a Bill that can be divided into parts might be dealt with by the Committee. It was considered advisable that you be recalled so that the matter might be determined both in terms of recent precedent and of the past practice of the House. We seek your ruling on whether to proceed with the procedure we have adopted in the debate, which is to take the instruction and consider it by way of a motion moved in the Committee, to determine whether the Bill shall be considered part by part. Mr SPEAKER: It is not difficult to establish the tradition of the House. JACK LUXTON (Matamata): I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. As I asked for the Speaker to be recalled, surely I should be able to give a little background on the matter. Mr SPEAKER: Certainly, if the member wishes to speak. I was unaware that he was on his feet. JACK LUXTON: The Committee has a very narrow brief. It deals with the short title of a Bill; it deals with a Bill clause by clause; and it deals with amendments. It can take an instruction from the House. The motion agreed to by the House, as reported in Hansard, Volume 467, at page 8254, was: " That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Homosexual Law Reform Bill that it may consider the Bill part by part". It was not a specific motion that it will deal with the Bill part by part; it stated that it may do so. When that matter was raised the Chairman of Committees said that it was a decision of the Committee of the whole House as to whether it would deal with it part by part. The promoter of the Bill then moved that it be dealt with part by part. It is my contention that in the Committee stage it is not a debatable issue. It is not one that divides the Committee of the whole House; rather, that proceeding takes place by leave of the Committee. If leave is given it needs the full support of every member of the House. The idea of having an instruction to the Committee from the House is that it can be done on the majority vote of the House, but a decision at the Committee stage must be taken by leave or have the concurrence of every member of the House. That is part of the democratic process. I believe it will start a series of motions that are not within the bounds of the Committee of the whole House. I believed it was of such importance that the Speaker should be recalled to give a ruling, so that it is known whether in future such motions can be moved at any time during any debate at the Committee stage. Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (St. Kilda): I refer to McGee, pages 251 to 252, where the matter is dealt with adequately: " An instruction to the Committee of the whole House is an abstract motion... An instruction to the committee of the whole House must be permissive only. It gives the committee power to do something, it does not direct it to act in a certain way.” It goes on to explain why that is so, and, on page 252, states specifically that the debate on an instruction is restricted to the subject-matter of the motion and must not extend to the general principle or objects of the Bill. In other words, there is a motion in the House that is a permissive motion. That is then moved at the proper time-in this case it related to dealing with the Bill part by part, therefore it was moved after consideration of the short title. That motion is itself debatable. The leave of the Committee could be taken at the time debate on the short title finished, and leave could be refused; but that does not pre-empt the possibility of the motion then being moved, debated, and voted on by the Committee of the whole House. The crucial point made on page 251 of McGee is: " A committee of the whole House consists of all the members of the House and it would be absurd for the members in the House to bind themselves irrevocably to something in committee (in contrast to controlling select committees of which all members of the House are not members)." Hon. JIM McLAY (Leader of the Opposition): I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. As I was in the House when the proceeding commenced it might be helpful if I outline to you the sequence of events. Mr SPEAKER: Order! With due respect, I draw to your attention that the authority of the Speaker is sought to give a ruling solely on the interpretation of the Standing Orders. The Speaker's ruling has been sought on the principles involved. The Speaker may not give a ruling on the particular incident in the Committee; that is solely within the control of the Chairman. Hon. JIM McLAY: I realise that entirely, and I certainly do not seek a ruling on the events. They are part; they were not challenged at the time; and they are not relevant to the discussion-other than that they put the discussion on the interpretation of the Standing Orders into context so that you are not being asked to rule in a vacuum. As we moved past clause 1, the short title, which the Committee had voted on and agreed to, we proceeded to consider whether the Committee would deal with the Bill part by part, in accordance with the permissive, but certainly not mandatory, instruction from the House. The Chairman first sought leave, which, as the events suggest, was obviously denied. I would submit that that is where the matter ended. However, I suggest that it is only a matter for leave and not one for vote, which may be opposed only by a majority with a minority dissenting. The proper course of action would be for the Chairman simply to seek leave. If that leave is objected to there is no alternative but for the Committee to deal with the Bill in the manner prescribed by the Standing Orders, which is clause by clause. Mr SPEAKER: The matter is quite clear. It is well laid down by McGee but I suggest that it is just as clearly put in Speaker's ruling 34/6, which states: " An instruction to the Committee on a Bill is an abstract motion, not an amendment to the motion to go into Committee on the Bill. It is not mandatory; it merely gives the Committee power, if it thinks fit, to consider and bring into the Bill the matters referred to in the instruction." That appears to be the position. The Committee is empowered to deal with the Bill part by part if it so wishes on an instruction from the House. The wishes of the Committee may be sought in two ways. One is the simple way of taking leave, and if all members are unanimous the wishes of the Committee are without dispute and the matter proceeds. However, the wishes of the Committee may also be sought by means of a motion so that the Committee decides by its numbers. That is nothing novel because that is what the Committee does when it passes any clause or any part of a Bill that subsequently becomes part of its reporting back to the House. That is the normal procedure of the Committee to determine its own wishes. In the present case it was decided that the Committee should seek a resolution of its opinion by means of a motion, and that is entirely in accordance with the customary procedures of the House. It is a motion, like any other motion before the Committee. Hon. JIM McLAY (Leader of the Opposition): I raise a further point of order, Mr Speaker. I accept your ruling entirely, but to assist the Committee when it considers the Bill-either clause by clause or part by part as the case may be-could the Committee, having agreed initially to consider the Bill part by part, subsequently, on a motion moved by any member, agree to consider, say, a particular and complex part clause by clause? In other words, does that one motion preclude a subsequent motion that might involve clause by clause consideration either of the remainder of the Bill or of a particular part? Mr SPEAKER: That raises the question of what the wish of the Committee is. If the Committee in its wisdom has decided that the whole of its proceedings shall be part by part, then the Committee is bound by that decision. If someone chooses to test that on a subsequent occasion, it could only be done by leave. But if the Committee, again in its wisdom, wants to avoid prejudging something it has not yet had time to consider, and does not want to put itself into a position in which it is judging the whole Bill part by part, it is quite entitled to say that in that instance the first part will be considered as one unit, as a part, and the second part may be dealt with in the same way or clause by clause. The instruction from the House leaves the matter entirely in the hands of the Committee. Hon. JIM McLAY: If the Committee agreed to it on Part I - Mr SPEAKER: That does not bind it, provided the motion is worded in such a way that every member who votes on it knows exactly what he or she is voting on. But if the motion is that Part I be now considered-which would be an appropriate way of putting it-that deals only with the problem of Part I and with the problem of Part II. That can be dealt with by subsequent motions or decisions of the Committee. Hon. JIM McLAY (Leader of the Opposition): I raise a further point of order, Mr Speaker. I hesitate to draw the matter out but we are breaking new ground with what is a very important issue-one that is a conscience issue and not of the nature of the legislation we would normally deal with part by part. Can I take it from what you have said that if, as is the case in this instance, a general motion that the Bill be considered part by part is passed by the Committee, it is still open for the Committee to seek leave or move that, say, Part III or Part IV be dealt with on a clause by clause basis? Mr SPEAKER: No, I am sorry, if a general motion to consider that whole Bill part by part is taken, then the Committee is bound by that; but if the Committee does not wish to be bound by that it may do it in the manner that I suggested before, so that it deals solely with the matter in front of it. Then, when it comes to the other parts, the Committee has not bound itself to how they will be dealt with and the treatment of those parts can be resolved subsequently. This motion is like any other motion. If the motion before the House is that the whole Bill be considered part by part, then it is competent for any member to amend it by moving that only Part I be so considered and that Part II be left for further consideration by the Committee. The matter is entirely in the Committee's own hands. Committee resumed Part I. Amendments of Crimes Act 1961 (continued). Hon. Dr MICHAEL BASSETT (Minister of Health) moved, That the question be now put. The CHAIRMAN declined to accept the motion. GRAEME LEE (Hauraki) moved, That the motion moved by the member for Wellington Central be amended by deleting the words " part by part", and substituting the words " clause by clause on Part I; and that speaking times be strictly in accordance with the Standing Orders". The CHAIRMAN declined to accept the amendment on the ground that it negatived the motion before the Committee. Progress reported. The House adjourned at 10. 55 p. m.

IRN: 3874
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_charles_chauvel_maiden_speech.html
TITLE: Charles Chauvel - Maiden Speech (1 August 2006)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 1 August 2006
YEAR: 2006
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 1 August 2006, New Zealand Parliament, volume 633, p. 578. CHARLES CHAUVEL (Labour): Madam Speaker, my first public acknowledgment of you came in 1994 at the University of Auckland, in the preface to my masters thesis. You helped me choose a topic and you encouraged me to persevere with it. Since then you have provided advice and encouragement to me at key times. It is an honour to acknowledge you again. Earlier today you accepted my affirmation of allegiance in two languages: English and Tahitian. My choice to make the affirmation in Tahitian is a tribute to my father, his Pacific heritage, and to the generations of Pacific people who have contributed to the energy and diversity of our culture in these islands now. My father was born in France. Dad’s paternal heritage is Tahitian - or, more precisely, Rai’atean. His family returned to Tahiti after the war. Dad was the eldest child, and the family wanted him to receive an English-speaking education. He came to New Zealand alone, on a boat, at the age of 12, in the late 1940s, with no English language skills. His family enrolled him at boarding school at Wesley College, south of Auckland. Having to pay for his schooling meant that they could not afford to bring him back and forth from Tahiti, so he stayed with family friends or attended YMCA camps during the school holidays. He was bright and he worked hard. As his classmate Jim Peters reminded me at a public meeting during last year’s election campaign, he was dux at Wesley. He enrolled at the Auckland University College part time and worked on the wharves to pay his way. He was one of the first Pacific Islanders in New Zealand to graduate with a law degree, and over time he became the senior partner in a respected law firm in Gisborne. He ensured that we stayed in touch with our Tahitian family and, as children, my sister and I visited them regularly. Before he retired Dad had the opportunity to attend his two children’s four university graduation ceremonies, to move the admission to the New Zealand Bar of both of us, and to witness my admission to the New South Wales legal profession. Dad’s story is a classic, and timely, reminder of the way in which immigrants, and the children of immigrants, have come to New Zealand and made their contributions to our society. His arrival in New Zealand took place some 20 years before the first modern migration here from the Pacific. So it has taken longer for the pattern of achievement that he and his family followed to be replicated more widely. But the achievements of the present generation of New Zealand - born Pacific people, and their parents, are a catalogue of success in the arts, sport, in business, and the professions. Our economy is now around a quarter larger than it was when Helen Clark was elected Prime Minister in 1999. As Jim Sutton remarked in his valedictory speech last Wednesday, unemployment has fallen by 75 percent since then. Those are extraordinary accomplishments. Many Pacific people - along with other New Zealanders who struggled through the difficult years of the 1990s and earlier - have done well in our new-found prosperity. People from the Pacific came here and worked as cleaners, caretakers, freezing workers, and wharfies. They did that so that they could enter the middle classes, or at least to give their children the chance to do so. In Cannons Creek, in Ōtara, in west Auckland, in the Hutt Valley, in the central North Island, and elsewhere, they do not forget that they first began to do so under a Labour-led Government. Nor do I. I am very proud to become the fourth member of the Labour caucus, and the fifth member ever directly elected to this Parliament, to be able to trace my origins within one generation back to the Pacific. I am equally proud, through my family’s connection with Rai’atea, or Rangiatea, or Hawaiki - as we now call it in New Zealand - of the genealogy I share with Māori members of Parliament. I also made the affirmation in English. My pride in my Pacific origins takes nothing away from the appreciation I feel for my European heritage. I remember one of my last conversations with Sonja Davies. I asked her about the significance of the title of her first book, Bread and Roses. In reply, she sang the line from the song: “hearts starve, as well as bodies”. If my father was the principal provider of bread during my childhood, then it was my mother and her family who provided many of the roses. Mum arrived here in New Zealand in 1946, aged 2. When her father returned to Scotland at the end of the war after years in a POW camp in Germany, there was no work. After inquiries here, he found a job in the freezing works in Gisborne. The opportunities open to Mum’s family in New Zealand in the 1940s and 1950s were more than literally a world away from the life they would otherwise have lived. I still remember how proud my grandmother was that my mother had opened her own business - a dance school - in her teens, and that she ran it successfully and with a good artistic reputation. Much like Sonja, my grandmother instinctively knew right from wrong. She taught me my values. If more strong, funny, caring, clever, passionate, ambitious women - like Flora McLaughlin Blair, Sonja Margaret Loveday Davies, and Regency Fiona Chauvel - were active in the upbringing of more New Zealand children, many fewer childhoods would be blighted by neglect. New Zealand in 2006 is poised on the threshold of opportunity. We can achieve great things. By international standards, we are still a wealthy country. In recent years we have enjoyed a sustained level of prosperity that many of us in the 1980s and 1990s feared we would not see again. And, for once, we are not squandering that prosperity: there is substantial investment occurring in education, infrastructure, superannuation, and the eradication of poverty. We possess many other advantages. We speak the world’s only lingua franca. We are well-educated and healthy, and getting increasingly better-educated and healthier. We operate a stable democracy, in which the rule of law is generally understood and respected. There are sufficient renewable resources in our ground, air, and water to sustain our energy and nutrition needs indefinitely, provided we are wise about their use. We are generally regarded as a good international citizen. Our culture is unique and vibrant, and we live in one of the most beautiful countries on Earth. To back ourselves by restating these advantages is not to be blind to the challenges that face us. We are a small country, and remote from large markets. We are still working through our colonial legacy. We were complacent for too long about economic diversification and infrastructure investment. Too much of our wealth is owned offshore now. We need to meet these challenges head on, in innovative ways to the best of our collective ability, without abandoning all the good things that make us unique and our society worth living in. We must focus on growing the country’s wealth. In the application of intellectual property to the productive natural environment, we are the world’s best farm. But the suspension of the latest World Trade Organization round and the recent US retreat from multilateralism both suggest the emergence of a far less benign international environment. We have to redouble our efforts to open international markets to our exporters. In the process, we should take care that the interests of poorer countries - including those of the Pacific, where great power interests are beginning to compete for influence again in a way not seen since colonial times - are not damaged. But subject only to that reservation, we should be ruthlessly pragmatic about our own interests. India and China are obvious markets for high-end, added-value primary production that is created in an environmentally sustainable way. And we must maintain the hope that the US will open its markets to an old friend like us, instead of allowing a host of other nations - with no history of shared values - to join the queue for free-trade agreements with it. We must also resolve our relationship with the other established great liberal social democracy in our region, Australia. I personally believe that it is time to explore a Pacific union that would have as its core New Zealand and Australia, in an evolving and ever-closer relationship. We need to be clearer about our long-term goals in respect of the nation that will always be our most important international partner. We also need to continue to welcome people to this country as part of the international brain exchange. There is a pragmatic reason for doing this, but it is not the only one. Our economy is now running at capacity in terms of available skills and labour. To achieve future prosperity, we need more and talented people. Our country was built on immigration, and we should not fear it. Diversity makes our culture much less homogenous and our lives less dull. Immigration enriches us all, literally and figuratively. As we pursue wealth, we must never compromise our labour standards, our environment, or our commitment to social justice. People choose to reside here - and stay here - largely because it is a great place to live and work and to raise a family. We can have it all, actually - high living standards, good international citizenship, a renewable energy future, and a continued commitment to egalitarianism. We just have to be smart - a little more farsighted, and a little less petty and partisan - about how we achieve it. These are some of the big issues facing us. If members of Parliament fail to address them, then there is no other group of people with a democratic mandate to do so. And if too many parliamentarians ignore the big issues because it is easier in the short term to grab headlines by focusing on slogans, or by playing personality politics, the long-term cost to faith in our democratic institutions will be very high indeed. I wish to conclude my remarks by acknowledging with deep gratitude the presence in the gallery of my family, supporters, and friends. Many of my former business partners from Minter Ellison Rudd Watts, including David Patterson, the chairman, and other colleagues from the firm’s board are present. I will always be grateful for the friendship and camaraderie of those most excellent of lawyers, who showed their confidence in me by electing me to their partnership at the age of 30. Colleagues from the Meridian Energy board on which I served, which laid the foundations for returning $650 million of value from our Australian operations to New Zealand and showed that a sustainable energy future is essential and possible for this country, are also present. Colleagues from the Lotteries Commission board are also here. During my service on that board we reversed a legacy of falling profits by some $68 million, while preserving a safe gaming environment. I acknowledge in particular the presence and support of the chair of the board’s audit and finance committee. There are many other colleagues from past endeavours here. People I worked with in the Public Health Commission, the Crown Law Office, the AIDS Foundation, the Institute of Directors, and on Law Society committees have all come to show their support, as have volunteers from the 2005 Ohariu-Belmont campaign, colleagues in the trade union movement, and a host of other friends. My sister, Fleur, is here with her partner. So is my own partner, David, who has always encouraged me to advance my own chosen career but has never himself sought public office. Despite this, he has had to put up with an intrusive level of media interest in his personal life. When in 50 years’ time sociologists examine the newspapers of the last 3 weeks to monitor our understanding of the cost of the final collapse of the Doha round, they will compare with surprise the column inches devoted to that issue against those reporting that Dave owns a nice car that I sometimes get to drive. I sincerely thank all of those who have shown me their support, and I hope that they will find my service in this place worth of it. Ia Orana.

IRN: 3873
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_grant_robertson_maiden_speech.html
TITLE: Grant Robertson - Maiden Speech (9 December 2008)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 9 December 2008
YEAR: 2008
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 9 December 2008, New Zealand Parliament, volume 651, p. 374. GRANT ROBERTSON (Labour - Wellington Central): E te Pika, tēnā koe. Ki ngā mema o tēnei Whare, tēnā koutou katoa. Tēnei e mihi ana ki ngā tangata whenua o Te Whanga-nui-a-Tara. Koutou nō Taranaki Whānui, nō Te Ā ti Awa. Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa. [Greetings to you, Mr Speaker, and to all members of this House, greetings. I acknowledge the local tribes of Wellington, those of you of Taranaki Whānui, and Te Ā ti Awa. Greetings to you, greetings to you, and greetings to you all.] Mr Speaker, I first of all want to acknowledge and congratulate you on your election to the position of Speaker, and I want to pay my respects to the mana whenua of this place. I feel an enormous sense of privilege, gratitude, and history to stand here today in the House. In 1954 and 1957 my grandfather Bob Wilkie ran as the Labour candidate in the Wairarapa electorate - a somewhat thankless task at the time. His advertisement in that long-lamented journal the Featherston Chronicle just before the 1957 election reads, in part: “I believe it is the responsibility of all in prosperity to care for those in adversity; that the welfare of the nation in the future depends on the children of today, and every assistance financial and otherwise should be given to those who have undertaken the responsibilities of parenthood.” Although times may have changed, the core values of social justice, community, and family that lie at the heart of my grandfather’s words and the Labour Party’s existence remain as important as ever today. I hope that Bob, who is in the gallery today, is proud that his grandson has made it to this place - and I wish him a happy 89th birthday for tomorrow. These values of social justice that drew me to the Labour Party, a party of principle and vision, are what drive me today. I believe that the fifth Labour Government took giant strides in the journey towards social justice. History will judge programmes like KiwiSaver, Working for Families, and 20 hours’ free early childhood education as landmarks in our economic and social progress. I felt privileged to work with and for Helen Clark and Michael Cullen. They are true campaigners for social justice and people who have dedicated their adult lives to the betterment of New Zealanders. I stand here today - I hope not unluckily - as the 13th representative of the Wellington Central electorate since it was named as such in 1905. I am humbled by those who have gone before me. My predecessors have included people of remarkable talent and vision, such as Peter Fraser, whose legacy in the area of education I will return to; Frank Kitts and Dan Riddiford, men who played significant roles in shaping this great city outside of this House as well; and Fran Wilde, who showed enormous courage and fortitude in sponsoring the Homosexual Law Reform Bill through this House. Fran, of course, left Parliament to play a key role in the development of this absolutely, positively wonderful city, and she continues to serve the region today. My immediate predecessor, the Hon Marian Hobbs, was a tireless advocate for Wellington and for Labour values. She is principled, passionate, and honest. I could not have had a better teacher when it comes to representing the diverse communities of my electorate. I cannot promise to call everybody “darling”, “dearest”, or “thingy”, as Marian did, but I do give my commitment that I am first and foremost the MP for Wellington Central, and that I will stand up for all Wellingtonians and for the city and its beautiful environment. I acknowledge in the House the two other cast members from the campaign that we called “Survivor: Wellington Central”. The Hon Heather Roy and Sue Kedgley are both articulate and principled advocates for the causes they believe in, and they were warm and friendly in what was from time to time a difficult campaign. I venture to suggest that not many other campaigns dealt with water pistols and exploding Taser guns, but that is Wellington Central for you. I look forward to working with all MPs from the Wellington region to advance the well-being of our constituents. I also acknowledge those who have broken ground in Parliament. In particular, I salute my colleagues Maryan Street and Chris Carter. In his maiden speech 15 years ago Chris Carter said that he hoped his presence in the House would make it easier for other gays and lesbians to aspire to political office. For my part, I can say that it has. I am proud and comfortable with who I am. Being gay is part of who I am, just as is being a former diplomat, a fan of the mighty Ranfurly Shield - holding Wellington Lions, and a fan of New Zealand music and New Zealand literature. My political view is defined by my sexuality only inasmuch as it has given me an insight into how people can be marginalised and discriminated against, and how much I abhor that. I am lucky that I have largely grown up in a generation that is not fixated on issues such as sexual orientation. I am not - and neither should others be. I am here today on the strength of support from my friends and family. In particular, I acknowledge the support and love of my partner, Alf. We are living proof that it pays not to stereotype - we met playing rugby. I was the number eight and he was the half back; a great combination. I also have had the pleasure of sharing in the growing up of Alf’s two children over the last 10 years, and of being part of his wider whānau. Taku aroha i a koe. I also take this opportunity to acknowledge other new and returning members across the House. For all the differences that we may have over the direction of this country and the policies that we need in order to get there, I know that they are here to do their best, and that they have worked hard to be here, and I salute them for that. My ability to make it through the campaign and win in Wellington Central was down to the hard work and sacrifice of hundreds of people. Some of them are here today. I thank them all again. My campaign team in many ways mirrors the Wellington Central electorate - argumentative, informed, creative, energetic, and young. And yes, we also had a few public servants in the campaign. Public servants have a right to participate in the political process, and I look forward to the new Government upholding its campaign promises to support and respect public servants. I suggest that a good place to start might be to stop referring to hard-working public servants as useless bureaucrats. I have been a public servant in this town, and I know that almost without exception, public servants give their total commitment to the Government of the day, whichever Government that may be. Wellington is, of course, more than - as Don McGlashan put it - “the suits and the briefcases along Lambton Quay”. It is our most sustainable city. More people walk to work or take public transport than anywhere else in New Zealand. We need to do more to encourage that through better integrated, more reliable public transport services. Wellington Central is also home to the wonderful Karori Wildlife Sanctuary, which I encourage all members to visit, and other fantastic outdoor education facilities. A significant part of this is the town belt, a tremendous legacy to the city that surrounds the inner suburbs in green space. There are some questions around the legal status of the town belt, and from time to time land has been taken from it for other purposes. In consultation with the Wellington City Council and interested parties I plan to sponsor legislation in this House to ensure that the town belt remains in, and, just as appropriate, is returned to, public ownership. Along with the outdoor activities, Wellington’s vibrancy is built around its creative sector. It is not hard to be swept along by the rich creative energy of this city. As the poet Lauris Edmond has put it, “This is the city of action, the world headquarters of the verb.” I believe that one of the great legacies of the fifth Labour Government is the growing sense of pride and identity expressed through our arts and culture. This is more obvious in Wellington than perhaps anywhere else. Our creative industries not only are the centre of our social life and tourism but also are part of the growing businesses of this city. The future of the Wellington economy, as with the rest of New Zealand, relies on those who can establish sustainable businesses that leverage off our natural advantages and capitalise on innovation. In Wellington the self-styled Silicon Welly, a group of businesses led by young entrepreneurs, is leading the way in the development of software and information technology solutions that are being picked up around the globe. There are, of course, many people in Wellington Central whose lives are a world away from selling software on the world stage. For many of them, substandard housing is a problem. Too many homes in this city are poorly insulated and overcrowded. This makes them unhealthy and energy inefficient. I believe we must, as a country, make a key priority the quality of our housing stock and the provision of adequate social housing. Wellington is also a place where many migrants and refugees begin their lives in New Zealand. We are a nation of migrants that benefits so much from each new wave of migration, yet I do not believe we do enough to support and welcome our newest New Zealanders. The bursting pride I saw from graduates at the Multicultural Learning and Support Services English language course last week here in Wellington needs to be matched by a strong commitment to support and work with them as they find their feet. I arrived in Wellington 14 years ago, looking to find my feet. I had grown up largely in Dunedin, in the cloak of a Presbyterian family, where my parents - who are here today - raised my two brothers and me to believe that we are all created equal, to treat others as we wish to be treated, and to work hard for our goals. They gave us love and support, and allowed us to dream but be practical with it, and I thank them for that. I was interested in politics from an early age - not, however, as early as my colleague Darren Hughes, whose first words as a baby, I understand, were “Mr Speaker”. My political consciousness grew around some key events. I swelled with pride and too many sausage rolls from the school canteen as I saw David Lange on television at the Oxford Union debate. Not only could an overweight guy with glasses succeed but also New Zealand could stand up to world powers hell-bent on destroying each other, and us in the process. I was proud then of our independent stance on the world stage, and I was proud to play my part in later years, working at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade and representing New Zealand at the UN in New York. Through the late 1980s and into the 1990s, I became distressed at the direction I saw Government take. The unfettered, market-knows-best, laissez-faire, user-pays philosophy did untold damage to my community. The Employment Contracts Act arrived in 1991. At the supermarket where I was working at that time to pay my way through school and university, I experienced firsthand our penal rates disappear, our conditions lost, and the value of our wages sink. I have never forgotten the impact of that law on working New Zealanders, and I have worked ever since to support the rights of workers. At university I became involved in the fight against user-pays in education. I ended up as the student president at Otago University and, in turn, here in Wellington for the New Zealand University Students Association. I learnt a great deal as a student politician. I learnt to organise, I learnt to campaign, and I learnt what it meant to stand up for what you believed in. After one particularly rowdy but peaceful protest I was accused by a policeman of being the biggest quasi-terrorist in Dunedin. I told him I was trying to lose weight. Above all, I learnt that it is education that will make the difference to people achieving their potential in life. Peter Fraser and Clarence Beeby laid out the vision for the State’s role in education in 1939: “the government’s objective broadly expressed, is that every person, whatever his level of academic ability, whether he be rich or poor, whether he live in town or country has a right, as a citizen, to a free education of the kind for which he is best fitted and to the fullest extent of his powers.” Although much has changed in the intervening years, Fraser and Beeby’s vision is the one that I come to Parliament determined to develop and make real for the 21st century. We have a great education system in New Zealand, staffed by dedicated professionals. We must build on that to ensure that it provides the basis for a strong, inclusive society going forward. There is not enough time today to talk about all the areas where we can work on this, but I want to make mention of one in particular. The current arrangements for funding of special-needs education need an urgent and serious review. Although successive Governments have put more money into this area, I know of parents who are still going through extreme stress to get the resources they are entitled to, and in some cases those resources are not sufficient. The Education Act says that every child in New Zealand has a right to an education. We have a responsibility to make that real. My vision for making real the ideals of social justice that I spoke of earlier is a vision for a modern, inclusive New Zealand, where we equip our people with the skills and knowledge to succeed in an ever-globalising world, where we celebrate and promote diversity, and where we truly are our brother and sister’s keepers. The solutions and ways to achieve this will not all be found in Wellington or in Government. My generation of politicians must be open to a range of potential solutions. They will be found in our communities and our families, on marae, and in workplaces. It is the job of Government and of politicians in general to bring those solutions together and to provide leadership and support. I want to help build a modern, inclusive New Zealand where we do not accept children growing up in poverty. I believe we should set goals to eliminate poverty in New Zealand, and work out a programme of redistribution that will see incomes and spirits lifted together. A modern, inclusive New Zealand also needs to be one that looks after our environment. The health of our natural environment is critical not only to our way of life but also to our economy. If we want people to stay in New Zealand, we need clean water to swim in and clean air to breathe. If we want carbon-conscious consumers across the world to buy our goods, or tourists who are spoiled for choice to choose to come here, then we need to be able to show that our 100 percent pure, clean, green image is a reality. Sadly, in many cases, it is not. A modern, inclusive New Zealand will be one where we do not build more jails but where we work with and across communities to ensure that people do not end up in prison in the first place. A modern, inclusive New Zealand needs to ensure that we acknowledge the place and role of Māori in New Zealand as tangata whenua in the Treaty of Waitangi. I would like to promote one small step in that regard. I believe that te reo Māori should be taught in all schools for all pupils up until at least age 14. Learning a language is one of the keys to understanding a culture, and in this case it is our own culture. This is one small step that we could take to build a more harmonious society. A modern, inclusive New Zealand will harness the best of being a Pacific nation. The emerging Pasifika communities in New Zealand need to be supported and developed, and those communities will also play an important role in New Zealand’s place as a peacemaker and conflict-resolver in our region. In conclusion I say, quite simply, that the reason I entered the political arena was my belief in social justice. My desire is to play a part in making my community, city, country, and world a fairer and more equal place, because it is that equality that will drive aspiration, opportunity, and success for all. In my time in this Parliament, it is my commitment that I will work to build an ever better, fairer New Zealand, where we seek to ensure that achieving one’s potential is not just the preserve of the privileged, but possible for all. Nō reira, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, kia kaha, tēnā koutou katoa.

IRN: 3872
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_tim_barnett_maiden_speech.html
TITLE: Tim Barnett - Maiden Speech (27 February 1997)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 27 February 1997
YEAR: 1997
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 27 February 1997, New Zealand Parliament, volume 558, p. 495. TIM BARNETT (NZ Labour - Christchurch Central): Michael Cullen said last week that after 12 maidens he felt as though he was in a nunnery. After 43, I feel as though it is becoming a habit. I have spent many hours over the past 2 weeks in this Chamber listening, sighing, and deleting passages from my draft speech that I had fondly imagined were unique inventions. But I promise that, like me, this will be full of fresh new material. I want to talk about the two special things that I bring to this House. As Labour's only new electorate MP, I want to offer a flavour of the extraordinary place that I represent. I want to identify two themes for my time here. I find it difficult to put into words the debt of gratitude that I owe to this country. I emigrated here in 1991. I was not a refugee from disease, discrimination, or war. I was a frustrated resident of a crowded island in a continent turning in on itself. I was seeking fresh horizons - a place where innovation was encouraged, and optimism rewarded. I wanted to be part of a society that did not judge me by what my parents did or which school I went to - ironic, cynics might say, that I ended up in Christchurch. I arrived in that wonderful city as it was going through its most dynamic changes since European settlement. The last 6 years have been the most memorable of my life, as I made my nest in this new land. Immigrants can see things in a way that local people never can. That is both a great strength, and a potential weakness. With apologies to Oscar Wilde: to be a fairly recent immigrant might be regarded as unfortunate, to be both that and gay looks like carelessness. I am proud of and open about my sexuality. As far as I know I was the first person in the world to be newly elected to a national Parliament having been open about their homosexuality throughout their campaign. Many of my fellow maidens in this House have, rightly, spoken with pleasure about the racial diversity of this Chamber, and the record number of women MPs, yet none has spoken of the diversity provided by having an openly gay member of Parliament. The honesty of openness has a potential cost, but I can assure the House that the emotional cost of being secret about one's homosexuality is infinitely greater. The fact that sufficient voters in Christchurch Central accepted me for what I am is a great credit to the change in public attitudes in recent years. Why am I a Labour Party member? I watched as the racism of my primary school teacher drove a young new immigrant to desperate tears. I saw Labour local bodies and Governments work tirelessly for race equality in Britain. I watched my father die from an avoidable industrial disease, and his trade union fight through the courts for fair compensation. I sensed the growing alienation of communities feeling abandoned by the free market, and saw the immense value of voluntary organisations providing a voice and a means of survival for those communities. I hear that 60 individuals own more wealth than there is in the whole of Africa. I admire the commitment of development agencies working at community level, mainly with women, to create change for good. In short, I believe that future responsibility and hope should lie in the institutions of society, not in the virtues of the individual. That is the message of Labour. I am deeply honoured to represent the new electorate of Christchurch Central. Until last week I was deluged by people saying to me: " You must be bored waiting for the real job to begin." Nothing could be further from the truth, given the demands and the needs of 1990s inner-city New Zealand. My office has dealt with 190 individual cases and 850 inquiries since the election, involving people born in 15 different countries in all continents of the world. No wonder! The rich cocktail of my electorate includes a public hospital, which even the Minister of Health admits has to get its act together; the homes of four members of this House; the country's largest Somali community; 37 rest homes - more than any other electorate; 72 places of education - one with the country's only school-based Muslim prayer room; five gang headquarters; and the country's most beautiful and historic city centre. Christchurch Central contains a higher proportion of private rental tenants and of single-person households than any other electorate in the country. Its income level on average is the lowest in the country outside south Auckland. The comfort of this building makes the reality and staying power of poverty near impossible to imagine. Poverty destroys hope and raises frustration to fever pitch. It starves children. It sustains privilege. It lasts for generations. I have lived in cities all my life. They have varied from Bridgetown, Barbados, to Belfast, to three different boroughs of London. I am passionate about city living. Many of my constituents use up all their passion in surviving. As I speak, in Christchurch Central people wait for news of how many of their family members living in volatile Kenyan refugee camps will be granted visas to move to the comparative safety of Christchurch; the twenty-fifth person of the day calls at the Methodist Mission food bank; tenants of one of the oldest remaining wooden retail buildings in the city centre pack up their belongings - demolition day in a couple of weeks; landlords in Linwood meet to plan how to evict tenants operating gang activities from their properties; varsity students, in orientation week, try not to think about just how much deeper they will be in debt by the end of this year; a meeting of school principals swaps ideas on how to fund-raise from non-Government sources for early intervention services to prevent record numbers of school suspensions again next year; community agencies warn that housing is so stretched that a tent city will spring up in Latimer Square. It is always difficult for those of us lucky enough to avoid poverty to sense what it really means. During the election campaign I slept overnight in a cardboard box in Cathedral Square - part of a cross- party attempt to highlight the threat of homelessness. Of course it was all right for me. It was only for one night. But the cardboard box was not comfortable. I did not sleep much. I spent hours listening to the sounds of the city, the dull roar of traffic, the occasional siren, and, from the cardboard box next to me, the incessant ringing of Rod Donald's cellphone. I was unnerved by the accuracy of the maiden speeches of my predecessors, Sir Geoffrey Palmer and David Caygill. In 1979, David called for the establishment of a Law Commission and urged that school committees be given real power. That happened. In the same year, Geoffrey Palmer stated that New Zealanders had to decide what sort of country they wanted and how their resources would be used. By the time he left Parliament in 1990, his Government had made many of those decisions and had drafted radical resource management law. I have thought long and hard about what I would want to be remembered for once my political life was over. I would like to mention two matters on which I intend to act. The first is the future of our cities. The second is the response of this place to MMP. Aotearoa New Zealand is the eleventh most urbanised country in the world, yet, internationally, we have a rural image. Eighty-five percent of our population live in urban areas. Only 5 percent of people live more than an hour's drive from a city. Yet we barely recognise, let alone address, the major issues of city life - few academic studies; no Government policies; little coordination. There are desperate issues in our cities - ever-growing tension between developers and the community, exposed by our free-market environmental law; local government yearning for more resources and the authority to plug the gaps and lead their cities into the next millennium; community groups so colonised by the contract culture, so de-sensitised by the competition for funding, that they fail to provide the community leadership required; increased immigration, which I welcome, not matched by adequate skills or language training; and an intelligent response to the demand for more roads, which can generate more traffic and damage the environment. These are urgent urban challenges that can be solved only if this House does three things that it has too often failed to do in the past: think ahead, be imaginative, and work across traditional boundaries. I am the first urban affairs spokesperson for any political party in New Zealand. The challenge to me is to develop a plan for cities that draws on best practice around the world, and preserves what is special about our extraordinarily diverse urban areas. I worked for 16 years of my life as a charity manager. It is always comforting to be part of a popular profession. What a shock to come to this place, which attracts unpopularity like a magnet! Dozens of my fellow maidens mentioned this unpopularity. Such self-flagellation seems to be a compulsive habit amongst the new MPs in this House - it is strange that Pam Corkery failed to draw our attention to it. The revolution of MMP will not be complete until this place changes as much as the electoral system has done. What could be done to make politics attractive again? I want to work for five things. First, we could make it easier to consider and legislate on issues of conscience. Company law does not have to wait for the luck of the members' ballot. Real issues that are massively important to many people- --such as the illegality of soliciting, an unworkably high drinking age, voluntary euthanasia, decriminalisation of use of cannabis - fester for years waiting for a brave select committee or a foolhardy maverick member to champion the cause, or for a massacre to make change inevitable. Second, we could judge ourselves, at the end of our careers here, by what we have achieved for real people - Fran Wilde, by liberating the lives of gay men; Jonathan Hunt, by ending the torture of anonymity for adopted children; Helen Clark, by reducing the number of lives lost through smoking; Mike Moore, by introducing competition to domestic airlines; and Katherine O'Regan, by ensuring protection from discrimination for people with HIV. Third, we could change how the Government does things, rather than just wait for the outcomes. The free market regards human beings as consumers and not citizens; unregulated, it can encourage moral corruption. Surely that is the real - almost entirely ignored - lesson of the Aotearoa Television saga. When the Government issues contracts that are expressed only in terms of outputs, which reduce human dignity to dollars and cents, then it is abandoning control over the abuses that happen along the way. It is giving everything a price, and nothing a value. It is blurring the difference between right and wrong. As long as the television programmes are made, expense accounts can boom and staff rights can be forgotten. Fourth, we could do what no one else wants to do - take responsibility for planning this nation's future. The market and the media seem to think only as far as closing time. Members of Parliament must rise above that; we must be visionaries. Beware of spending too much time getting outraged about the latest scandal. What we are facing tomorrow and beyond requires the force of imagination, not wisdom from yesterday. Fifth, we could examine what we really mean by working across traditional party boundaries. I have heard many dreams in those 43 maiden speeches. Those dreams will be delivered only through new forms of cooperation. That is not easy in an institution that seems to mitigate against cooperation. We 45 new members have to show that this is possible or yet another dream of MMP will have been shattered. We do not have much to build on. The superannuation accord has become cross-party working from hell. Mechanisms do not have to be as destructive as that; they can be constructive. I am pleased to report to the House that we have managed to organise five meetings of the cross-party South Island MPs group over the past 3 months without histrionics or resignations. We need more such networks of MPs with common interests, working as partners with outside pressure groups. I can reasonably claim to have three predecessors in this place. Lianne Dalziel and David Caygill each represented parts of the old Christchurch Central electorate. And Chris Carter was the first MP to be public about his gay sexuality. The list and electorate aspects of MMP create predecessors who are still in this House and at their peak. Lianne Dalziel was a tireless advocate for the stark problems of Christchurch Central; she is an outstanding advocate for public health. Being selfish, I had always imagined that David Caygill would be the perfect person in this House to turn to for confidential and frank advice. I was very sorry to hear of his decision to retire. He was the supreme gentleman legislator. MMP has made us define constituencies in new ways. Chris Carter, who maybe paid the highest of prices at the last election for his honesty, made this nation aware that it has an established and vigorous gay community. I am here to represent Christchurch Central. I am also here to remind each and every member of this House that they and their party have lesbian, gay, and bisexual voters. Just as I represent all the people of Christchurch Central, so I expect fellow members to understand and accept their duty to all the community, regardless of sexuality. Yesterday, Rana Waitai used his maiden speech to explain to us just how ignorant he was of gay people. I am patient. He will learn. I want to finish, rather than start, by thanking with all my heart those who worked on my campaign and who work with me now in the Christchurch Central electorate. Our democracy is kept alive by volunteers who believe in a cause. We professional politicians owe such volunteers a lifetime of debts.

IRN: 3871
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_chris_carter_maiden_speech.html
TITLE: Chris Carter - Maiden Speech (16 March 1994)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 16 March 1994
YEAR: 1994
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 16 March 1994, New Zealand Parliament, volume 539, p. 504. CHRIS CARTER: Māo te whiwhinga i te tūranga tināno motuhake e pupuri nei a koe i tēnei wā. Kei te mōhio ahau kei a koe te mana me te kaha ki te whakahaere i tēnei tūranga he hāonore tino nui māou mo te tangata whenua o tēnei whenua hoki. Tēnā koe! First of all, I wish to congratulate you, Mr Speaker, on your election to the very important office you now hold. I am certain you will exercise that office with great ability and mana. Your elevation as Speaker is not only a personal tribute to you but also a tribute to the tangata whenua, the first people of this land. Ou te fia ta'ua i le agaga fiafia, le auai i le Palemene o la'u uo lelei, le sui faipule o Otara. O lona filifilia, o le ulua'i tagata Pasefika i le Palemene, o se la'asaga aupito taua lea, i le atiina'e o Niu Sila, o se tasi o atunu'u o le Vasa Pasefika. I also acknowledge the presence in this Chamber of my good friend the member for Otara. His election as the first Pacific Island MP marks an important step in the development of New Zealand as a Pacific nation. I am proud to come before this House as the new member for the Te Atatu electorate. Te Atatu was established as a new electorate in 1978. It has been a Labour electorate for 12 of its 15 years. I was honoured and deeply privileged to be elected to represent Te Atatu in the 1993 general election. Tonight, I acknowledge the presence in this House of my immediate predecessor, the previous member for Te Atatu, who now represents the people of the Waitakere electorate. I also pay my respects to my Labour predecessor, the Hon. Michael Bassett, who served the electorate for 12 years. His work as Minister of Health and as Minister of Local Government will be long remembered. I wish him well in his retirement from politics and look forward to his continued contribution as a political and social historian. I also take this opportunity to thank all of those who helped me in the election campaign. They were tireless workers, who managed to knock on the door of every house in the electorate, dodging dogs and working long hours for a Labour victory in Te Atatu. Last year New Zealand celebrated 100 years of women's suffrage. I am very pleased that my team in Te Atatu contains many strong, intelligent, and assertive women. I would be lost without them. Their energy and commitment always remind me how much women contribute to the success of any undertaking. I thank them. I also thank the Pacific Island and Indian communities in Te Atatu. Without their votes and support I would not be here tonight. I wish to reassure the people of the Te Atatu electorate that I pledge to be an honest, open, and effective representative on their behalf. I am ever conscious that I must now represent all the people in my electorate, whether or not they voted for me. I want to use the occasion of this maiden speech to affirm, once again, that all my constituents can expect me to be their representative regardless of their race, religion, age, sex, disability, or sexual orientation. Some sections of the press seem determined to label me on the grounds of my sexual orientation. I reject any label but that of the Labour MP for Te Atatu. My sexuality is incidental to my primary role as the Labour representative for the people of the Te Atatu electorate. My electorate encompasses a swath of dormitory suburbs in Waitakere City, west Auckland. The seat swings in an arc around the shores of the Waitemata Harbour. Fringing the electorate are the bush-clad hills of the Waitakere Range. Contained within this electorate is a large expanse of former harbour board land, adjacent to the sea. I believe that this land can be considered as one of the great treasures of Auckland. I am committed to working with Waitakere City Council to ensure that the whole west Auckland community benefits from the development of that land. The west Auckland suburbs of Te Atatu, Glendene, and Kelston, which make up the electorate, are largely comfortable places to live. The casual visitor could well comment that they represent the New Zealand dream at its best: large sections sloping down to quiet, tree-lined streets, with well-tended gardens surrounding homes of the 1950s and 1960s. Yet all is not well in this suburban heartland. The ravages of unemployment; domestic violence and abuse; and fears over health changes, education, and asset-testing are creating considerable stress in my electorate. I could fill the full 30 minutes of this speech with sad and tragic anecdotal stories about the stresses some of my constituents are facing, many directly and indirectly stemming from recent Government policy initiatives. I was a teacher in the Te Atatu electorate for many years, before being elected to this House. Teachers are a group of people who are in touch with the lives of a great many ordinary New Zealanders. When I was in the classroom, I began to appreciate, through my interaction with my pupils and their families, just how hard life is becoming for some people in our country. Now, as an MP, I see in my electorate office the beleaguered casualties of deregulation and the cut-backs in Government support services. Every day my office receives visits or phone calls from desperate constituents. Personally, I have found that helping people with these problems is the most satisfying part of my new job. It can be a very sad and humbling experience as well. I have had people in my office who have been in tears because they wondered, after benefit reductions or accident compensation changes, how they would feed their children. I have had visits from old people desperate with worry that they could lose their homes or savings because of asset-stripping. Others have come who are confused or angry because Government departments have failed to respond to their calls or have sent them incomprehensible letters in response to sometimes desperate situations. After four months as a Labour MP, I am utterly convinced that I made the right decision when I decided many years ago to join the Labour Party and fight for social justice for all. I stood as a Labour candidate because I believe in democratic socialism, not just in a political context but as a philosophy of life. I believe that the community has a moral and ethical duty to look after its less fortunate and more vulnerable members. We either believe in helping our neighbour or we do not. I do. My own personal experiences of life, some of which I will discuss shortly, have convinced me that the resources of the State must be harnessed to safeguard the rights of minorities and to provide care and assistance to those who, because of their race, age, sex, disability, sexual orientation, or economic circumstances, are less than equal with the majority or the powerful. The English philosopher Jeremy Bentham described the measure of right and wrong as " the greatest good for the greatest number". A simple definition, yes - but a true one. The 19th century socialist Edward Carpenter wrote: " The State, guided by humane principles and accountable to the people, must safeguard the poor, the weak and the dispossessed, because no other soul will." That, I believe, is true, and it is still the essence of Labour Party philosophy today. It has become fashionable in some quarters to claim that socialism is a discredited philosophy. I refute that assertion. Indeed, I see that there is now an even more pressing need to implement socialist principles. Social democratic philosophy sees the State rather differently from the way in which a conservative philosophy does. We in the Labour Party believe that the State must act to correct the imbalances in our society that favour the rich and the powerful. The conservative position is the laissez-faire posture. " The less the Government does, the better.", it says, and " Let the market sort out the matter." - a position first postulated, perhaps, by that patron saint of the Business Roundtable, Adam Smith, so long ago. We know that if the market is left unchallenged, social injustice will be heightened and the result will be more suffering in the poorer sections of our community. The law of the unregulated market is, in the end, the law of the jungle, where only the strongest can survive or flourish until the whole rotten edifice collapses. I know all about survival. In my life I have had to struggle against prejudice and intolerance, and I have developed an empathy for others who have had to face similar difficulties. I stand here tonight 16 March 1994 as the first sitting member of this House to acknowledge publicly that my personal sexuality is different from that of the majority of New Zealanders and, I imagine, from that of the majority of members sitting here tonight. A person's sexuality is a private matter, and indeed it should remain so. However, on the occasion of my maiden speech I would like to discuss the implications of my personal sexuality. I do not do this to flaunt my difference or to bait certain members of this House who seem to have enormous difficulty in coping with this subject. I speak tonight about my sexuality for two reasons. Firstly, I believe that my sexuality has played a very positive role in my life. It has shaped my personal philosophy and has sharpened my sense of social justice. As a teenager I learnt all about hiding my real feelings and opinions. I also learnt all about what it feels like to suffer ridicule and contempt, engendering a sense of low self-esteem and strong feelings of guilt and worthlessness. I learnt, as probably few members in this House have ever learnt, what it actually feels like to be at the bottom of the heap, and what effect this oppression and discrimination can have on one's life. Such an experience breaks some in my particular situation; for others it can lead to a deep cynicism and often hedonistic behaviour. For me, it meant that I developed a strong, stubborn determination to succeed on my own terms, and in doing so led to a realisation that I was not alone in treading an unequal highway. As a young adult, I began to appreciate that many others in our society are not treated equally. I believe that women in our country do still suffer oppression and unequal opportunity in our male- dominated society - witness, for example, the relatively small number of women members of this House, especially on the Government benches. I can see very clearly that non-pakeha New Zealanders, particularly our Maori and Pacific Island sisters and brothers, still suffer racial discrimination - often subtle, but nevertheless real. Many of our constituents on low incomes or benefits suffer from a lack of resources and opportunities, and are increasingly oppressed as an expendable underclass. My own situation rapidly led me to a real empathy for those in society who, because of their race, their sex, or their economic circumstances, are judged to be less than equal. There are many people in my own multiracial and working-class electorate who know that they struggle to win on a very unbalanced playing-field. I understand, in a very personal way, their struggles, frustrations, and hurts. My second reason for speaking tonight about my sexuality is the importance of being a " first", and the hope that this will provide to other homosexual men and women. I was not the first openly gay Labour candidate. In this respect, I wish to acknowledge the presence of my Labour colleague, Dr Ian Scott, who is my guest in the Chamber this evening. He stood as our candidate for Eden in 1981. This Chamber has seen some important legislative changes that have affected profoundly the lives of gay and lesbian New Zealanders. Some members, past and present, deserve high praise for their courage and their sense of justice and humanity. The former member for Wellington Central and now Mayor of Wellington, the Hon. Fran Wilde, deserves the undying gratitude and respect of all fair-minded New Zealanders for her sponsorship of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill. That Bill was not just a significant development for gay New Zealanders but also a milestone in the struggle for social justice in this country. All New Zealanders should be proud of this achievement, and I want to thank all members of this House, past and present, who voted for that legislation and enacted it into law. I would also like to acknowledge the Minister of Consumer Affairs, the member for Waipa, who sponsored the amendment to the human rights legislation that led to the outlawing of discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. Her action proved to me that there are people of integrity and compassion in all parties in this House. I thank her, as well as all past and present members of the House who voted for the passage of that amendment. Gains have been made but prejudice and social discrimination persist. Members have no doubt noticed how some sections of the press seem extraordinarily interested in my sexuality, at the expense of almost any other aspect of my life or opinions. I guess that is the price I must pay for being the first openly gay sitting member of this House. I have to say that it can be tiresome and insulting at times. In a month I leave for the UK via South Africa. I am half expecting to see a headline in the Evening Post or the Sunday Star Times containing a phrase such as " Gay MP decamps on overseas travel". On a more serious note, I know that we each build on the foundations of those who went before us. I hope that my presence in this House will make it easier for other gays and lesbians to aspire to political or community office. Prejudice is based on ignorance. The best recipe for gaining an understanding of other cultures and lifestyles is contact and normalisation. My task is to show that I am an effective MP for my electorate and an asset to my caucus. I will certainly do my best to achieve those two aims. If I am successful, those who come after me will, I hope, find the trail less littered with braying donkeys and slippery banks. Foundations are important, not just in blazing the trail for the normalisation and acceptance of minorities in our society but also in another area with which I have had a long association - education. In Shakespeare's Hamlet Marcellus observes that " Something is rotten in the state of Denmark." Sadly, this quotation may soon come to apply to our education system. For 16 years I was a teacher, and I am still a financial member of the Post Primary Teachers Association. I have a special relationship with the 10 primary schools, 3 intermediate schools, 3 high schools, and 2 special-education schools in my electorate. I know many of the staff and pupils at these schools and I visit them often. Everywhere I go I am aware of the low morale, pessimism, and extraordinary workload of the staff. During my long educational service I saw many changes in curriculum content and educational structures. Teachers weathered these changes with professionalism and a keen sense of commitment to their pupils. Yet I have to say that the last few years have seen a dramatic drop in the morale of the teaching profession. Principals, especially primary school principals, with meagre secretarial or accounting support staff have been expected to cope with an increasing responsibility for organising all manner of administrative and support services. Classroom teachers, with no salary rise for five years, have had to carry the extra burden of integrating special-needs pupils into their classroom programmes, managing the increasing stresses and paperwork associated with curriculum change, and the increased pressures of so-called accountability. Our teachers are the best educational resource this nation has, yet they are being ground down by increasing workloads. Urgent action is needed to provide principals, especially primary school principals, with the extra resources to best cope with the move to local autonomy in school self-management. Urgent action is needed to lessen the load and pressures on classroom teachers through more adequate staffing. Urgent action is needed to provide teachers with the increased remuneration they so deserve. If there is no action in these areas our fine education system will suffer long-term and perhaps permanent damage. Not only will our staff suffer but automatically so will the children. During the life of this Parliament I intend to work vigorously on behalf of the pupils and their teachers in my 18 schools. They are a precious resource to be supported and valued. Another precious resource in my electorate is the large number and wide diversity of ethnic communities residing there. Te Atatu has a Dutch retirement village, Ons Dorp, located at one end of McLeod Road, and a Croatian cultural centre at the other end of the same street. We have several marae, and Samoan, Tongan, Niuean, Tokelauan, and Cook Island community churches abound. Kohanga reo, kura kaupapa, and Samoan and Tongan language nests are doing a fantastic job in fostering language and traditions among the young in their communities. These self-initiated educational centres are a wonderful attempt to develop children rich in two cultures who still have a sense of pride and place. The electorate is the home of Mr Bill Teariki, the Cook Island Consul for Auckland; Mr Tupou Alama, the Consul for Tuvalu; and Mr Tony Covic, Honorary Consul for the Croatian Republic. Large numbers of Indians, Vietnamese, Chinese, and Croats live in the electorate. Auckland's recent Chinese New Year Festival was held in our area. I am privileged to represent such a diverse and cosmopolitan electorate. I have been selected as the Labour Opposition spokesperson on ethnic affairs. I want to thank my caucus colleagues for their confidence in me and I look forward to working closely with ethnic groups not only in Te Atatu but also throughout New Zealand. The member for Otara spoke so eloquently last week about the vibrant pulse of his multiracial electorate. Difference and diversity enrich rather than damage our culture. We are citizens of a multiracial planet. Let us celebrate our diversity. Finally, I would like to pay tribute to my family. This is the International Year of the Family and I, like all other New Zealanders, belong to a family. In our rich and increasingly diverse society families can come in a variety of forms and compositions. Some are like Maori and Pacific Island families, which are often extended networks of people with whanau or aiga as a broad unit that can incorporate many different individuals. The more conventional pakeha family usually contains just three generations in a fairly direct sequence of grandparents, parents, and children. Now the presence of a large number of single-parent families and sometimes same-sex couples add to the possible structures that function as family units. Each has a place and should be respected. In my family I have a partner who has supported me for 21 years. We have an excellent and loving relationship, which puts paid to any myth that gays cannot live in stable long-term monogamous relationships. My family also includes siblings and a father. Sadly, my mother, born Maureen Casey, died unexpectedly just before the election. I would like to pay a special tribute to my parents, especially as tomorrow is St Patrick's Day. My parents were the descendants of Irish immigrants. Seven of my eight great-grandparents were born in Ireland and the blood, and possibly the bloody-mindedness, of the Irish peasantry runs strongly in my veins. My parents were hard-working and honest people. They taught me from an early age that I should be strong and honest in my dealings with others. They believed in and were loyal supporters of the Labour Party. Mr Speaker, my speech tonight may well be considered controversial by some people, and certain members of this House could be uncomfortable with my views. I would ask them at least to acknowledge and respect my honesty. I would like to conclude my speech tonight with a quotation from the maiden speech of the Leader of the Opposition, the member for Mt Albert. I hope that I also can fulfil the sentiment she expressed at the end of her maiden speech: " My greatest wish is that at the end of my time in this House I shall have contributed towards making New Zealand a better place than it is today for its people to live in." Kia Kaha, Kia Toa, Kia Manawanui.

IRN: 3870
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_georgina_beyer_maiden_speech.html
TITLE: Georgina Beyer - Maiden Speech (9 February 2000)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 9 February 2000
YEAR: 2000
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 9 February 2000, New Zealand Parliament, volume 581, p. 412. GEORGINA BEYER (NZ Labour - Wairarapa): I find it a privilege to stand in this House today to speak for the first time. I would like to begin by acknowledging your election to your office, Mr Speaker. It is well deserved and obviously affectionately accepted by all who are in this House. I acknowledge your deputies also, who are in service to the members of this House. I would like to acknowledge also the Rt Hon. Helen Clark, the leader of the Labour Party who led the current Government to victory on 27 November last. She is a woman whom I have admired and I aspire to at least have the political nous to be able to be half as good as she is. I certainly hope that that will be achieved. I would like to acknowledge my heritage. I am proud to be a New Zealander of Māori descent from primarily the iwi of Te Atiawa, Ngāti Mutunga, Ngāti Raukawa, Ngāti Porou, and that should be quite enough for anybody I would have thought! I have to say that the strength and the aroha that I hope to bring to this House will be forged from those heritage and whakapapa links. They are important to me. Friends and family and supporters over the time of my life, who now find me in this place today, are worth mentioning as well, though not individually because that would take far too long. But there are one or two people whom I would like to mention right now. I certainly have to acknowledge the support of the woman who first approached me to consider standing on behalf of the Labour Party for the seat of Wairarapa, which finds me in the position I am now. That lady is Sonja Davies, a former MP, who is sitting in the House today. She is a woman who is a New Zealand icon, which is not a term she likes said to her face; but she is. She has been a mentor and someone whom I respect so much that I took the challenge on board when she approached me. I have enjoyed her undivided support all through the campaign, right up to the present. So I thank Sonja personally. One relative I would like to mention is someone who passed away last year. She was a woman who was important to Māoridom, and a great loss. Though she liked me to call her “aunty”, Hana Te Hemara was my cousin. She was well known in Ngā Tamatoa. She had a great deal to do with helping to establish te reo Māori for our young people, in its early days, to where it is now. She has always been behind me and supporting me in whatever endeavours I have tried to undertake in my life and has been there to help in times of adversity. Adversity is something I shall talk a little about further on. My primary reason for being here is that I am now the elected representative of the Wairarapa electorate. It was a stunning victory, to say the least. Not only was there a 32 percent swing away from the National Party - the previous holder of the seat for a considerable time - to the Labour Party this time round, but also we won the party vote. That was quite remarkable in a seat that was considered to be rural conservative heartland New Zealand and a stronghold for National. That position has changed, and I hope it will remain where it is for some time into the future. But I must pay acknowledgment to my former member, the Rt Hon. Wyatt Creech. I have had reason to work with him in my capacity as mayor of one of the Wairarapa districts, Carterton. We have had an amicable relationship, and I certainly hope I shall do my best, as I am sure he tried to do his best, and his best has assisted me to get where I am today. I say that in a loving way. In the Wairarapa, like many New Zealand rural areas, we have been under some stress for at least the last 10 to 15 years. We have seen the centralisation of services. We have seen public services, such as hospitals and schools experiencing difficult times. A no-less-difficult time has been had by Masterton Hospital, for example. We have seen the closure of large and small businesses, we have seen unemployment, and we have experienced natural occurrences, such as droughts, which have given our farming sector difficult times. My experience in the Wairarapa has not been small. I shall just give a bit of background. In 1990 I moved to the area, having lived primarily in the cities of Auckland and Wellington. I was unemployed when I arrived and in receipt of a training benefit. I was enrolled and attended an Access scheme, which later became the Training Opportunities Programme. If there was one thing I came to learn that was vitally important, it was the sense of community that existed. I was welcomed into that community and given opportunity, and I felt an obligation to reciprocate by giving some form of service to help others. In that respect, I eventually found myself standing for the local district council after having spent a period of time working in community service at the local community centre and teaching on one of the Training Opportunities Programmes. I stood for the council, because the effects of the 1991 Budget had been quite devastating on low- income people and those benefits, in areas like the Wairarapa. I went out to bat for them as best I could to deal with the onslaught of the effects of those changes some 6 months down the track after implementation. It was quite upsetting to see how small communities could be so negatively affected. But I learnt that the spirit of community is one that makes sure that in the hardest of times people pull together and in their togetherness they look for leadership amongst their people so that they can take their concerns, their aspirations, their ideas, and their demands to the authorities that have such an effect over their lives. In our particular case the local authority, the Carterton District Council, seemed to beckon me to enter into that chamber. I was elected as a councillor in 1993 in a by-election and in 1995 I became the mayor - a position I proudly say I still hold today after my re-election in 1998. I had to earn the respect of the people who gave me that responsibility, and my position as mayor was endorsed in the 1998 election with a 90 percent majority in my favour. Coming to Parliament seemed a natural progression in the eyes of others. I was not quite so sure, but I have now come to learn that I should be very sure of that. I guess I am talking about my advocacy for people. I want to see areas like the Wairarapa, with its huge potential, exploiting the opportunities they know they have in areas such as wine growing, forestry, and, obviously, agriculture, as well as in other industries. We see those industries growing, but impediments have occurred. For example, small business was affected when the business development boards were disestablished and when the funding that used to help people who were trying to get themselves into self-employment or get themselves into businesses was taken away. I am glad to see that under Labour's policy we will reverse those kinds of things. We will add investment into rural New Zealand, and we will have a Ministry of Rural Affairs that will help re-establish things. My involvement with local government is important from the point of view that the relationship that this Government wants to have with local government with regard to economic development and a whole lot of other social factors will be important for getting the regions up and going again, and Wairarapa will be part of that. My speaking time is drawing thin and I cannot help but mention the number of “firsts” in this Parliament: our first Rastafarian - our Green colleague over there and I am very glad to see him here because it adds diversity; our first Polynesian woman member of Parliament, and, yes, I have to say it, I guess, the first transsexual in New Zealand to be standing in this House of Parliament. This is a first not only in New Zealand, ladies and gentlemen, but also in the world. This is a historic moment. We need to acknowledge that this country of ours leads the way in so many aspects. We led the way for women getting the vote. We have led the way in the past - and I hope we will do so again in the future - in social policy and certainly in human rights. In the Labour Party I share a keen interest in human rights from the aspect of gay, lesbian, and transgender communities in this country. I know I will be joining my colleagues Chris Carter and Tim Barnett in looking at those issues, which are important. In fact, those issues are not so different in many respects from any other issue that we in New Zealand are all concerned about - health, education, training, employment, and a few other niggly ones that are just a little unusual. We will certainly be trying to inform people better. I was quoted once as saying: “This was the stallion who became a gelding, and now she is a mayor.” I suppose I have to say that I have now found myself to be a member! I have come full circle, so to speak - not that I wish that to be degrading in this House in any way, but I understand that a sense of humour is welcome. I hope that members will enjoy my sense of humour from time to time. People were concerned that I did not have a written speech. I find it difficult. I have to speak from the heart, and I have to be genuine about that. There are probably a whole lot of things I have not mentioned, but the important ones have been mentioned. My priority in my tenure in this House will be my electorate. I will stand accountable - as the Rt Hon. Wyatt Creech mentioned last night. I do not mind that at all, because I will front up. I will make sure that I do the best I can on the electorate's behalf. There are many issues and we will all tackle them. I welcome the warmth I have felt from all sides of this House since I have been here. I am not one who wants to sit here and be confrontational, like I see from time to time. We all have to get on and work for the benefit of our nation. That is what we will do and that is what I want to achieve as a person. We will go forward. We will make a difference. They sound like cliches, but they are worth saying. In conclusion, Mr Speaker, thank you for your indulgence during this my maiden speech.

IRN: 3862
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_homosexual_law_reform_bill_business_carried_forward_12_december_1985.html
TITLE: Homosexual Law Reform Bill - Business Carried Forward (12 December 1985)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 12 December 1985
YEAR: 1985
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 12 December 1985, New Zealand Parliament. Hon. GEOFFREY PALMER (Leader of the House): I move, That the following Bills: the Animal Remedies Amendment Bill, the Apple and Pear Marketing Amendment Bill, the Auckland Regional Authority (Regional Planning Scheme) Empowering Bill , the Commerce Bill, the Crimes Amendment Bill (No. 2), the Education Amendment Bill (No. 2), the Electricity Amendment Bill, the Fair Trading Bill, the Finance Bill, the Fisheries Amendment Bill, the Forests (Kaimai-Mamaku State Forest Park) Amendment Bill, the Health Amendment Bill, the Homosexual Law Reform Bill, the Hospitals Acts Amendment Bill, the Hospitals Amendment Bill, the Income Tax Amendment Bill (No. 5), the Income Tax Amendment Bill (No. 7), the Inland Revenue Offences Bill, the Invercargill City Council (Differential Rating Validation) Bill, the Local Government Amendment Bill (No. 2), the Local Legislation Bill (No. 2), the Machinery Amendment Bill, the Maori Affairs Amendment Bill, the Medicines Amendment Bill (No. 2), the National Development Act Repeal Bill, the New Zealand Horticulture Export Authority Bill, the New Zealand Market Development Board Bill, the New Zealand Mission Trust Board (Port Waikato Maraetai) Empowering Bill, the New Zealand Nuclear Free Zone, Disarmament, and Arms Control Bill, the Nuclear Free New Zealand Bill, the Otago Foundation Trust Board Bill, the Patriotic and Canteen Funds Amendment Bill, the Pesticides Amendment Bill, the Plant Variety Rights Bill, the Private Schools Conditional Integration Amendment Bill, the Prohibition of Nuclear Vessels and Weapons Bill, the Residential Tenancies Bill, the Riot Bill, the Road User Charges Amendment Bill (No. 4), the Shipping Bill, the Survey Bill, the Tasman Pulp and Paper Company Enabling Amendment Bill, the Te Runanga o Ngati Porou Bill, the Trade and Industry Amendment Bill (No. 2), the Video Classification Bill, the Video Recordings Bill, the Waimea County Council (Motueka Harbour) Vesting and Empowering Bill, the Wanganui Computer Centre Amendment Bill (No. 2), the War Pensions Amendment Bill, the Wheat Board Amendment Bill; and the petitions and matters, other than Bills now before select committees, be carried forward to the next session of Parliament. GRAEME LEE (Hauraki): I move, That the words " the Homosexual Law Reform Bill” be omitted. It is preposterous to refer that Bill to the further sitting of the House in 1986. There has never been a Bill as obnoxious and repugnant as that Bill, which seeks to legalise sodomy at the age of 16. It is a Bill that gives to a group of people rights that are not available to others - rights that go beyond race, sex, and creed, and now bring in sexual behaviour or sexual orientation. It is appropriate now, having discussed the Bill at the length we have, that we agree to set it aside. There are several reasons for my seeking the support of the House to the amendment. First, there has never been a Bill that has divided the House and the nation as the Homosexual Law Reform Bill has. The matter has reached into almost every home in the country. Hon. RICHARD PREBBLE: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I wonder if you could give some guidance on the matter. I should like to know whether the member can debate in the widest sense on a motion such as this. He appears to be discussing issues that one would discuss in a second reading. If that is valid we will have to listen to it. However, I should have thought that he would have to confine himself to the very narrow argument about whether the Bill should he held over to the next session, rather than go into the merits of the Bill. Mr SPEAKER: I have been giving the matter some thought, and it amounts to a killer motion. Therefore, the reasons why the Bill should or should not for all intents and purposes be killed become a matter for much wider debate than merely the timing of its introduction, or any further debate. GRAEME LEE: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I was saying that the Bill has divided the House, the nation, and even family units. My second point is that the people have made a clear stand on the matter and have given Parliament and the legislators a clear mandate that they do not want the Bill to continue. While many in the House may think it appropriate to discuss further the measures of the Bill, which has already gone through the introductory stage, the second reading, and entered the Committee stage, surely there has been sufficient time for the House to examine it and understand why the people do not want it to continue any further. The third point-if an additional reason why the Bill should not continue is required - is that many people have expressed their concern about it through the select committee system. It is an historic record of the House that approximately 2,300 submissions came from the public on the matter. Certainly there were pros and cons, but it suggests to me that there was a deep sense of division in the minds of the people and that they exercised that concern by making those submissions to the select committee. If that is so, surely we must recognise that it is most inappropriate for the Bill to go further when there was such a clear division of opinion. What are we trying to do? Are we trying to bring down some factional measure that will continue to divide the nation when there is no reason for it and therefore no need for the Bill's introduction? The last reason why we should not proceed is that the nation now faces what is potentially the worst kind of health disaster ever to confront it. I refer to the AIDS problem. That problem worsens and will continue to do so, as every day goes by. We have seemingly had our heads in the clouds during the past few months in discussing a Bill that seeks to do nothing less than decriminalise homosexual behaviour and allow it to increase - and I will not go into the arguments, which I believe are unassailable - thereby providing for AIDS to strike down the people of this country. I am concerned that the people will contract AIDS, and we will be doing something that could potentially bring about deaths of more New Zealanders than needs to be the case. For those reasons, and many more profound reasons that I need not go into at this time of night and on this last day, we have a chance to stop the Bill. I call upon the House to reflect again, having considered the Bill and decided that it is too divisive to go further, that this is an appropriate time to put it aside. Let us stop this nonsense; let us consider the matter at some other time, if necessary, but do not let us go into 1986 with the Homosexual Law Reform Bill before us. GEOFF BRAYBROOKE (Napier): I am loathed to rise at this late hour, but I must explain how I feel about the motion moved by the member for Hauraki. No one detests the Homosexual Law Reform Bill more than I do. I do not approve of it, I have constantly voted against it in the House, and I have many times urged the House to reject it. However, one must face realities; this is not the way to dispose of the Bill in a democratic society. We should dispose of the Bill by letting it go to the House as a whole, and let the House vote on it when it hears all the merits of the case. There is no doubt about that. I am against the Bill. I sincerely hope that the amendments I have put forward will be agreed to by the House when the Committee stage of the Bill is completed. I have spoken sincerely in the House when I have said that it is not good enough just to kill the Bill. A royal commission of inquiry is needed to examine all aspects of homosexuality. The problem will not go away, and by artificially killing the Bill I am afraid that all that will happen is that in the new year we will again go through all the agony and divisiveness that we have already been through. I am not prepared to see the House do it again. I do not believe that the House will pass the Homosexual Law Reform Bill, but we will kill it in a democratic way; we will not do it by a back-door method. I want the Bill killed; I do not want to see it again, but this is not the way to do it. Therefore, I reluctantly support the Bill's remaining on the Order Paper, because I believe in the true, democratic way of doing it. Two wrongs have never made a right. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON (Papakura): I was interested to hear the member for Napier make his contribution. I accept what he said, although I do not agree with it. The point is - and he overlooked it - that the House has had nearly 9 months to deal with the issue. The great difficulty with a measure of this kind, as the member for Hauraki has correctly pointed out, is that if it drags on and on it diverts or deflects members from dealing with some very substantial public issues that are important to all those whom we represent. I well recall the member for Gisborne saying-and I cannot be specific about the time-so many months ago that when he came here he did not expect so much of Parliament's time to be consumed by such a matter. I agree with that. I agree with the member for Hauraki, who referred to the petition of 800,000 New Zealanders. There has been dispute about the precise numbers, and there will always be dispute about numbers in such a matter. The member's point was very simple. At no time in New Zealand's history, and, indeed, in the history of Parliament, have so many people said in simple terms that they do not want a Bill. Many people to whom we are responsible totally oppose the Bill. An inordinate amount of time has been spent in the House on the deliberation and discussion of the matter. That might be acceptable if times were normal, but at a time when the country is perturbed about the direction of the Government's foreign policy; at a time when there is concern, and, indeed, consternation, about the economic and fiscal policies adopted by the Government; at a time when, as we have heard in recent hours, there is expected to be a massive increase in unemployment-certainly after Christmas; at a time when our primary industry, and cornerstone of the nation's wealth, is under threat-and I refer to the farming industry - and when the horticulture, fishing, and forestry industries are under unprecedented threat. Mr SPEAKER: Order! I have listened with some interest. Each one of the items that the member has mentioned might be accepted as a passing reference, but when he embarks on a litany such as he has done it becomes more than just a passing reference. I ask him to return to the subject-matter. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: I accept that absolutely, Mr Speaker. My question is simply this: how much more time does Parliament need to make up its mind on the Bill? That was the question posed by the member for Hauraki, who, with great sincerity and commendable determination, has pursued the matter from the beginning to the near end. How much longer does the House need? I suggest that it needs no further time. We have had very long select committee hearings and have heard all the evidence. We have had a debate on an unprecedentedly large petition. We have been lobbied by all kinds of people. We have been written to. The question before Parliament tonight is a very proper one. Beyond all that, what need we do? Hon. ROB TALBOT: Go home. Hon. M. L. WELLINGTON: Yes, and the Whips may give the member for Ashburton leave, and God bless him. The point is, if the House has been unable to make up its mind after all this time and after that catalogue of events, the Bill should be discharged. We should not embark in the new year on other grave and weighty problems while obsessed with this one. Therefore I support the member for Hauraki. I am a little surprised that the member for Napier at this late moment parted way a little with a member with whom he has worked so closely. He did offer an alternative that is fair enough - a royal commission. However, that would not dispose of the issue; it would keep the embers of the debate fanned. For example, who would constitute the members of the commission? They would have to be Government appointees. A glance at the voting records so far on the Bill show that a majority of Government members support homosexual law “reform” for young men and young women of the age of 16 and upwards. So if the Government can appoint the commission, what sort of answer can the people expect in the face of a petition of 800,000 people - about one-quarter of our total population? I do not think that the alternative proposed by the member for Napier is valid. Members have their channels in the House. We have exhausted them, as my remarks in the past few minutes were intended to illustrate. I thank the member for Hauraki for putting before the House an amendment that is not only proper, but that a Parliament should support by majority. Hon. VENN YOUNG (Waitotara): I listened with interest to the contribution from my colleague the member for Papakura, for whom I have the greatest regard. I wish the issue he referred to in terms of legislation would go away, but it will not. Parliament has to make a decision on whether the Homosexual Law Reform Bill proceeds. He who fights and runs away will live to run another day. Whether we like it or not, Parliament must deal with the subject; it must make a decision one way or the other. The Bill should be held over and we should make our decision next year, only because we cannot make it this year. I do not disagree with the member for Papakura when he says that the Bill is taking up the time of Parliament when it could be considering many other matters. However, decisions must be made, and made by the Legislature. There is no one else to make them. Hon. WHETU TIRIKATENE-SULLIVAN (Southern Maori): I rise to support the amendment, and I do so with as much sincerity, concern, and conviction as I am capable of. I can say what I want to say with impeccable brevity at this time of night. This is a conscience issue, included with many other Bills that are not of the same nature. I ask the House in all conscience: how can Parliament seek determinedly to proceed to legalise the means of passing on a fatal disease? I put it simply and succinctly in those terms. That is the focus of the Bill that causes me the greatest concern for those of the young generation who require us to pass laws to protect them in every aspect of their lives. I reiterate my concern that if the Bill is carried forward to the next session we will continue with a Bill that legalises the means of passing on a fatal disease. I cannot agree with that, and therefore I support the amendment that this particular Bill should not be carried forward. Surely, at a time when the Western World is aware of the epidemic of AIDS, Parliament cannot seek to pursue the passage of a Bill that will condemn the younger people of this generation and the next to the likelihood of becoming subject, reluctantly and innocently, to a fatal disease. Hon. GEOFFREY PALMER (Leader of the House): Mr SpeakerMr SPEAKER: Is the member speaking to the amendment? Hon. GEOFFREY PALMER: Yes. Mr SPEAKER: That means that you surrender your right of reply? Hon. GEOFFREY PALMER: Yes, I appreciate that one has only one set of rights. The amendment has been moved in all sincerity by the member for Hauraki, but I believe that it is misconceived, because I do not think there has been a measure in my time to which the House has devoted more effort, more energy, and more speeches than this particular Bill. The Bill is only partially on its way to a resolution and no one can tell what that resolution will be. The sponsors of the Bill feel so strongly about it, however, that it would be inevitable that they would reintroduce it, and we would go through the process all over again. I do not think that Parliament should be subjected to that. The purpose of Parliament is to decide that issue in a proper way in accordance with the Standing Orders, and, whatever view members take of the matter, Parliament has made a sincere effort to do that, but it has not finished that process, and that process must be allowed to continue. It must continue to its ultimate conclusion, unhurried by any particular action the Government can take by way of urgency. Under our Standing Orders, such matters can now be considered only on Wednesdays, and this matter has been considered on a great many Wednesdays. Given those circumstances, I think proper parliamentary practice and democratic procedures here coalesce; that whatever one's views of the Bill's merits, it is not appropriate to kill it off by a procedural motion at the end of a parliamentary session and set at nil the parliamentary effort that has been made on it over many weeks. This is not a private member's Bill that is of a political character. It is a sincere effort to change the law on a particular subject, and, whether or not we like the issue, as members of Parliament we will have to grapple with it and vote on it according to its merits, in accordance with the Standing Orders. For that reason it should be held over so that all the work the House has done is not wasted, and that must apply as much to the opponents of the Bill as to its proponents. In the final analysis this is a Parliament, and Parliament has to decide the matter. It ought not to be deprived of the opportunity to decide it by a procedural motion of the character contained in the amendment moved by the member for Hauraki. The House divided on the question, That the amendment be agreed 10. Ayes 17 Austin, W. R., Banks; Birch; Bolger, Falloon; McLay; McTigue; Maxwell, R. F. H.; Peters; Smith; Talbot; Tapsell; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Wellington; Young, T. J. Tellers: Austin, H. N.; Lee. Noes 56 Anderton; Austin, M. E.; Bassett; Batchelor; Boorman; Braybrooke; Burdon; Burke; Butcher; Caygill; Clark; Colman; Cooper; Cox; Cullen; de Cleene; Dunne; East; Elder, Fraser; Friedlander; Gerard; Gerbic; Goff; Gray; Gregory; Hunt; Isbey; Keall; Kidd; King; McKinnon; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Maxwell, R. K.; Moore; Moyle; Neilson; O'Flynn; O'Regan; Palmer; Prebble; Scott; Shields; Shirley; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Terris; Tizard; Townshend; Upton; Wetere; Woollaston; Young, V. S. Tellers: Mallard; Wilde. Majority against: 39 Amendment negatived, and motion agreed to.

IRN: 3861
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_report_of_the_privileges_committee_hitchens_and_knight_12_december_1985.html
TITLE: Report of the Privileges Committee - Alan Hitchens and Chris Knight (12 December 1985)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 12 December 1985
YEAR: 1985
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 12 December 1985, New Zealand Parliament. Hon. GEOFFREY PALMER: I have the honour to present the report of the Privileges Committee on the matter of privilege concerning an article published in the New Zealand Truth on 8 October 1985. I move, That, (1), the report do lie upon the table; and, (2), that Mr Speaker do formally reprimand, in writing, Mr Alan Hitchens, editor of the New Zealand Truth, and Mr Chris Knight, the journalist who wrote the article, for their actions in the matter. On 9 October Mr Speaker ruled that a question of privilege was involved in respect of a complaint lodged with him by the member for Whangarei, the member for Invercargill, and the member for Hauraki. The complaint related to a newspaper article published in the New Zealand Truth magazine of 8 October 1985. The article was, in turn, based partly on an editorial and article published in Out magazine in the winter of 1985 and partly also on an interview with a spokesman for Out. The Speaker found that a question of privilege was involved in the statements or reports of statements contained in the article, and that those might constitute an attempt to influence members in their conduct by threats. The committee held an initial meeting, and then the editor of New Zealand Truth and the reporter, as well as their lawyer, appeared before the committee, and evidence was presented on 6 November. The New Zealand Truth article consists partly of material provided by a spokesman from Out and partly of material lifted directly from the magazine. The article consists of a number of assertions of the consequences that are likely to be visited on opponents of homosexual law reform should the Homosexual Law Reform Bill at present before the House not be passed. Alongside the article are photographs of the three members who raised the complaint of breach of privilege. It will be necessary in the judgment to refer in some detail to that portion of the article that was derived from the Out spokesman. The remainder of the article, which consists of material published in Out, it is unnecessary to refer to in detail because the committee concluded that, while strongly worded in robust journalism, it was not so worded as to constitute a contempt. After considerable analysis of what was said in the article the Privileges Committee considered the law relating to contempt. There is no doubt that under the authority of Erskine May attempted intimidation of members to try to influence them in their conduct by threats is a breach of privilege. There are several examples of that, one such case involving Mr Plimsoll of the Plimsoll line fame, who published statements impugning the conduct of members and threatening them with further exposure if they took part in debates of the House. The lawyers for the New Zealand Truth raised a number of defences before the committee. First, it was submitted on behalf of the New Zealand Truth that there was no intention to influence members in their parliamentary conduct by any means, whether proper or improper. The committee is not disposed to accept that that is indeed the case. If, as the New Zealand Truth asserted, it merely wished to reveal the tactics of groups in favour of homosexual law reform it could have relied solely on a factual report of the editorial and the article in Out magazine. Had it done so there would have been no breach of privilege, but it did not do so. It elicited comment from a spokesman, and that was more damaging to individuals by naming them than what had appeared in Out magazine itself. The New Zealand Truth also asserted that it had acted in the public interest in publishing the article in that it was revealing the limits to which certain groups would go in their fight for the Bill to pass. Once again the Privileges Committee does not accept the assertion of the New Zealand Truth in that respect. It does not believe that the article was written to advance the public interest. For instance, neither the issue nor the article contain any editorial comment for or against the tactics that those groups are said to be ready to employ. Had the New Zealand Truth been acting in what it saw as the public interest one would have expected it to include some such comment. It also seems unnecessary for the New Zealand Truth to have given such prominence to named members of Parliament of the public interest had been uppermost in the editor's mind. Let me summarise the committee's findings and its findings on penalties. It finds that the article in the New Zealand Truth of 8 October headed “Gay mag: M. P. s secrets out” was an attempt to influence members in their conduct by threats, and is thereby a breach of privilege. It finds the editor, Mr Hitchens, and the reporter, Mr Knight, to be in contempt. The committee wishes to emphasise here, however, that it does not believe that any of the three members concerned have anything disreputable to hide or that they would for one moment alter their parliamentary conduct as a result of the threat. Not one scintilla of evidence was presented to show that any of the members had acted dishonourably. Also, they are much too strong-willed to be intimidated by such journalism. The privilege exists to protect all members, including those who might not be strong enough to resist such pressure. It is absolutely essential for the House to assert its privilege in an appropriate case, and this is such a case. Mr Hitchens and Mr Knight readily indicated their willingness to apologise if they were found to have committed a breach of privilege. The committee was also told that settlements had been reached between the New Zealand Truth and the three members concerned in legal proceedings arising out of the publication of the article. The committee understands that those settlements involve the publication of an appropriate apology and the payment of damages. The decision of the aggrieved members to seek their own remedy in the courts does not affect the question of whether or not there has been a breach of parliamentary privilege. Parliamentary privilege is enjoyed by the whole House, and does not depend upon the actions of individual members. The committee therefore did not consider the legal proceedings relevant to its determination that a breach of privilege had occurred. It did, however, consider the proceedings and the settlement to be relevant factors when considering what penalties, if any, should be exacted. Because adequate redress had been obtained by the members elsewhere, the committee was not inclined to recommend as heavy a penalty as it might otherwise have thought appropriate in what is a serious case of breach of privilege. The committee therefore recommends that Mr Hitchens and Mr Knight should be formally reprimanded, in writing, by Mr Speaker for their actions in the matter. DON MCKINNON (Rodney): The Opposition endorses the comments made by the Leader of the House and the findings of the Privileges Committee. It supports the finding that there was an attempt to influence members of Parliament by virtue of the publication in the New Zealand Truth; that there was contempt by both the editor and a reporter of the New Zealand Truth in the manner in which the article was presented; and that the hearing on the matter was adequate and just, and that was appreciated by the three members concerned. In relation to penalties, it is accepted that the willingness to apologise is appropriate in the circumstances, along with the settlements that I understand have been agreed upon between those found in contempt and those who brought the issue before the Privileges Committee. The Opposition supports the report as it stands. GARY KNAPP (East Coast Bays): I do not want to take too long in speaking about the matter, but I do want to be associated with it. The charge that was dealt with was one that had some effect on me. I am not sure how many other members had been visited or threatened by elements on one particular side of the issue. I was pleased that someone acted on the matter that had been made public in the New Zealand Truth. I was disturbed because I wondered to what extent referral to the Privileges Committee was the correct way to deal with threats of that kind. I have some concern about the operation of that committee, in that it has been my impression in the past that on occasions the truth is no defence before that committee. If one, in holding an opinion that one believes to be the truth, criticises Parliament, for instance, that is unacceptable and is no defence before that committee. Accusations have been made that the committee has all the elements of a Star Chamber. There is a lack of confidence in some quarters as to whether one would receive a fair hearing before the committee. Notwithstanding those reservations, which I firmly hold - and which will be an ongoing matter from my point of view in trying to achieve an improvement in the operation of privilege and the way the committee carries out its work on behalf of the House - there is a need for some remedy. The debate involved was that concerning the Bill introduced by the member for Wellington Central - the Homosexual Law Reform Bill. It is a divisive issue, and one on which members on both sides have strong opinions. I do not support the Bill, and I find it despicable that people on one side of the argument, who had some compelling arguments to make, should visit some members of Parliament-as was my experience, which I ignored-and should publicly threaten other members. That did not serve their argument or their case well. When it became public it resulted only in ridicule and anger from those who might not have been ill disposed to their arguments. I do not feel that a public apology is appropriate. People who are prepared to go to those lengths should be dealt with properly in a court of law, not by the Privileges Committee. Motion agreed to. Mr SPEAKER: Honourable members, I know that the House has given leave for the report to be printed in Hansard, although it was not completely read to the House. As the chairman of the committee read most of the report, perhaps, after consideration, he might consider that as an adequate record, as the complete report will be entered on the Journals of the House. Hon. GEOFFREY PALMER (Leader of the House): I am content with that. GARY KNAPP (East Coast Bays): I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I want to clarify what you said, because I did not hear all of it. Were you saying that the contributions that have been made should go on the record? If so, I am happy with that. Mr SPEAKER: A concession was sought for matter that had not been spoken in Parliament to be included in the Hansard record. Although that concession was given, that does not authorise the matter's being recorded in Hansard. I asked the chairman of the committee, who had sought leave, whether, considering how adequately the report had been presented, that course needed to be followed.

IRN: 3860
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_homosexual_law_reform_bill_instruction_to_committee_20_november_1985.html
TITLE: Homosexual Law Reform Bill - Instruction to Committee (20 November 1985)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 20 November 1985
YEAR: 1985
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 20 November 1985, New Zealand Parliament. GRAEME LEE (Hauraki): I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Homosexual Law Reform Bill that it may consider the Bill part by part. FRAN WILDE (Wellington Central): The member for Hauraki and I have consulted on this matter and have reached an agreement that it would be a rational way of debating the Committee stage of the Bill. DON MCKINNON (Rodney): This is a debatable motion, is it not, Mr Speaker? Whilst I know that there has been an arrangement between the member for Wellington Central, who stands on one side of the issue, and the member for Hauraki, who stands on the other side, several members in the Chamber are looking bewildered about how many parts are in the Bill. I made a decision some time ago that I would not even speak on the Bill, and I have little desire to speak on it, but as a member who has some responsibility on the side of Opposition members I think it is necessary to say that they should in the next couple of minutes have a chance to look at the Bill, as they have to do as individuals. It is not a party matter; it is a conscience matter. Each member may have a different position on whether the Bill should be debated part by part. Only a few minutes would be required to do that, and we would be in a better position to vote on the motion. I am told that there are three parts. FRAN WILDE: There is the short title and two parts - Part I and Part II. DON MCKINNON: So it is the intention of those moving the motion that the short title be separate? FRAN WILDE: Yes. Mr SPEAKER: I realise there is something in the contention raised by the member for Rodney. Although I must not involve myself in the debate it is my duty to look after the interests of all members, and I suggest that it would serve the interests of all members if one or two drew attention to what is involved in each of the parts and made some suggestions to the House as to how they think the debate should be conducted. I am not doing this in the hope of prolonging the debate-in fact, I hope to avoid a prolonged debate about a procedural matter. However, the House does need to know exactly what is involved and why the procedure is seen to be advantageous by those concerned. DON MCKINNON (Rodney): Those who promoted the idea might give some consideration to allowing the debate to begin on the short title. They have signalled in advance that they want to debate the Bill part by part, so after the debate on the short title it could then be moved that the balance be handled part by part. However, that would not affect the short title debate as a stand-alone debate. Hon. GEOFFREY PALMER (Leader of the House): This is not a matter in which I have taken any direct interest, but I should say something about the procedure that the House might want to adopt. If the Committee is to consider the Bill part by part it is necessary for the House to give that instruction to the Committee before the House goes into Committee. Therefore it is not practical to adopt the course the member for Rodney has suggested. The second point is that the structure of the Bill seems to lend itself to the kind of motion that is being suggested, because in the debate on the short title each member will be entitled to a total of three 5-minute calls on clause 1 if no other members are seeking the call. That ought to give any member ample opportunity to say a great deal. That deals with the nuts and bolts of the Bill. It is the most general debate that the Committee of the whole House will have. The second part of the Bill deals with the Crimes Act. As far as I can see, all of Part I deals with amendments to the Crimes Act and the criminality with which the substance of the debate has always been concerned. If that part is dealt with, each member will again be entitled to three 5-minute calls on that part. Members would be able to move all the amendments they wanted to, and to have them considered. There is no difficulty with that. DON MCKINNON: Is the sequence of those amendments changed by dealing with parts as opposed to dealing with clauses? Hon. GEOFFREY PALMER: I do not think the sequence of the amendments would be changed, because the Committee would vote on the amendments at the end and would vote on them in the order in which they amend the clauses of the part. If that were so, no logical difficulty should be involved. When the Committee had dealt with that part it would then move to Part II of the Bill, the amendments to the Human Rights Commission Act. That part comprises two clauses and is a discrete matter quite separate from the criminal provisions dealt with in Part II. That leaves the schedule, which would probably have to be dealt with separately. Hon. VENN YOUNG (Waitotara): Before I support or reject the proposal I need a clearer reason to restrict discussion on the clauses of the Bill, because members know quite well that taking Government Bills part by part does facilitate the passage of such measures. The Bill does not have many clauses, whereas other Bills for which the House has considered such a resolution have been large and the House has needed to make some progress on them; the Government's intention has been known. In this case, however, not only is the Bill smaller, and as the Leader of the House said, it has two separate parts, but it does divide into two separate Bills, because two Acts will be amended if both parts are passed. In the circumstances, and in the knowledge that there is widespread interest in the manner in which Parliament will deal with the Bill, we may be pushing Parliament unnecessarily in the consideration of the Committee stage of the Bill. In particular, there are several amendments to clause 5, and members will need to be very clear in their minds during the Committee stage which ones they propose to support and which they propose to reject. There is a proposal for a new clause 5A. All of the amendments deserve separate consideration by the House. Perhaps the most difficult issues members have to deal with when there are several amendments on a private member's Bill that is a conscience issue are the different stances taken by individuals or groups. Although I know that the House wants to proceed with the Bill, members do not want the Committee stage to take another 3 weeks. We want to make decisions. It seems that there would be some danger of short-circuiting the rights of members to speak to individual clauses if we followed the suggested course. Hon. GEORGE GAIR (North Shore): I have considered how best we might proceed with this stage of the Bill, and have had discussion with one or two people about it. It seems to me that the proposal before us does make good sense, but to win the support of the House the proposer needs to explain how the sequence of amendments would come before the Committee. In particular, I am thinking of the changes to the age of consent. Unless we adopt a process of elimination on the matter of age we could get into all kinds of trouble. May I give an example? There is a proposal in the Bill for an age of consent of 16. In Supplementary Order Paper 70 I have proposed an age of 18. There is a proposal for an age of 20, and yet another different proposal in a proposed clause 5A for an age of 20. As the age of 16 is stated in the Bill, the amendments will clearly have to be put before the substantive clause in the Bill. By a process of elimination we should work from a higher age, by amendments, down to the substantive proposal in the Bill. In that way we would learn the mood of the House. In terms of the sequence in which the supplementary order papers were lodged, however, we couldFRAN WILDE: The proposal makes no difference to that. Hon. GEORGE GAIR: I realise that, but the concern of members, some of whom may not have considered the proposal now before the House, is partly about the right to speak and partly about how they will have the right to make their choice when the amendments come before them. If members can be clear and agree that the order of choice is made available to members according to a descending order of age, those amendments would be taken in series on the completion of the debate at the end of Part I. The consequential amendments through the clauses of Part I would follow, and that may be the best solution in the circumstances. WINSTON PETERS (Tauranga): I make a plea for normalcy and convention in the matter. I believe that the Bill should be debated clause by clause. For example, I would like to have a debate on the short title and a debate on the subject of indecency with a boy aged between 12 and 16 years of age. There should be a debate on an indecent assault on a boy by a man. There should be a debate on keeping a place of resort for homosexual acts. Those matters are all covered in Part I. I understand the wish of my colleagues for a part by part debate, but that is in the hands of the proponents of the Bill. If some of the clauses are out of place and should be rearranged for the convenience of debate, let the proponents propose a rearrangement. That is in the hands of the member for Wellington Central and the Government, but it is not for them to ask us to abandon the conventions of the House that cover nearly every Bill that passes through the House merely because they may subscribe to a certain approach for the Bill. Concerning Part II, I should like to know whether there will be a debate on the Human Rights Commission Act and on discrimination on the ground of sexual orientation being unlawful, as in clause 9 and the schedule. Those are separate matters, but I come back to the point that if there are clauses that create difficulty for chronological debate because of their placement in the Bill it is for the member for Wellington Central to redesign it now, rather than to ask members of the House and you, Mr Speaker, to abandon the convention and tradition of discussing Bills in Committee. GRAEME LEE (Hauraki): I am opposed to the Bill, and my motive in moving the motion was to recognise the difficulties the House would get into, and the regrettable confusion that might follow, by not realising that substantial amendments apply to clause 5. Although the changes to clause 5 must be addressed in chronological order, as far as I know clauses 3 and 4, which refer to the age of 16, below which offences can occur, will not draw any amendments. There may be one small technical amendment. With the understanding of that point, clause 5 will therefore be the important benchmark clause. It was my attempt to facilitate the Chair that led me to suggest that those matters could be taken together. The matter could be dealt with in other ways. My colleague the member for Tauranga suggests that the clauses could be rearranged. So be it! Taking clauses 3, 4, and 5 together would also make it possible. The point raised by the member for North Shore-about taking the amendments with the age benchmarks in the order of decreasing age-would be automatic, so it can be set aside. That is the reason behind the motion, which simply means that clauses up to clause 7 come within the motion. It would not preclude any discussion - in fact, in my understanding it would allow the best result. I repeat that I oppose the whole of the Bill. The House divided on the question, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Homosexual Law Reform Bill that it may consider the Bill part by part. Ayes 55 Anderton; Angus; Austin, M. E.; Bassett; Batchelor; Braybrooke; Burdon; Burke; Butcher, Caygill; Clark; Cox; Cullen; Dillon; Dunne; Elder; Fraser, Gair; Gerard; Gerbic; Goff; Graham; Gregory; Hunt; Jeffries; Keall; King; McKinnon; McLean; Mallard; Marshall, C. R.; Marshall, D. W. A.; Matthewson; Maxwell, R. K.; Moore; Neilson; O'Flynn; Palmer, Prebble; Rodger, Scott; Shields; Shirley; Storey; Sutton, W. D.; Talbot; Tapsell; Terris; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Tizard; Wetere; Woollaston; Young, T. J. Tellers: Lee; Wilde. Noes 21 Austin, H. N.; Austin, W. R.; Banks; Birch; Bolger; Friedlander, Jones; Kidd; Knapp; Luxton; McClay; McTigue; Maxwell, R. F. H.; Morrison; Muldoon; Richardson; Smith; Wellington; Young, V. S. Tellers: East; Peters. Majority for: 34 Motion agreed to.

IRN: 3859
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_homosexual_law_reform_bill_second_reading_continued_13_november_1985.html
TITLE: Homosexual Law Reform Bill - second reading continued (13 November 1985)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 13 November 1985
YEAR: 1985
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 13 November 1985, New Zealand Parliament. Debate resumed from 6 November 1985. NORMAN JONES (Invercargill): Last Wednesday I moved an amendment that the Bill should lie upon the table for 12 months. I did that because if the Bill is passed in its present form, before the New Zealand Department of Health can guarantee that every blood donation throughout New Zealand is tested for the AIDS virus, it will accelerate the spread of AIDS from the homosexual community to the heterosexual community, and that is not on. Innocent people such as haemophiliacs will be at risk. It is interesting that the October report of the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, which is just out, states on page 41 that there were seven confirmed AIDS deaths in New Zealand as at 1 October. That will be news to the Minister of Health. The most recent figure he gave in the House was six. There are also 12 other confirmed cases of AIDS proper-my information is that there are 15 - and 6 of those are in intensive care at present and will die shortly. It is also interesting to note that on page 41 of the report it is stated that one locally transmitted case of AIDS has been confirmed. The Minister has never confirmed that there has been a locally transmitted case of AIDS. I refer him to page 41 of the October report of the AIDS Foundation. New Zealand now has its first home-grown case of AIDS. Hon. Dr MICHAEL BASSETT: Did the member expect anything else? NORMAN JONES: The Minister has expected it for a while. It is a pity he did not take the country into his confidence and announce that it has its first home-grown case of AIDS. It is also a pity he does not give the country the information that the AIDS Foundation can seemingly get with Government aid and support. It is stated on page 42 of the report that 100,000 New Zealanders are considered to be in the at-risk groups. That figure includes the wives of bisexual men and of homosexual prostitutes, the wives of haemophiliacs, and the wives of intravenous drug users. The homosexual group in this country admits that most of its members are practising homosexuality within marriage. For that reason 100,000 New Zealanders are at risk. On the figures of the AIDS Foundation we can expect that in 5 years' time 2,500 men and women will become infected with the AIDS related condition. More than 10 percent - the figure the foundation gives is 377 - will subsequently develop AIDS. The people who develop the full AIDS syndrome will die. Homosexuals in America, on the Continent, in Europe, in Australia, and throughout the rest of the world are killing themselves by the thousands with that homosexually transmitted disease. They do not give a damn whom they infect - and those are not my words. I draw the attention of the House to what the newly re-elected mayor of New York was quoted in the Dominion of Friday, 8 November, as having said: “New York Mayor Edward Koch, fresh from winning a third term with a record majority, yesterday vowed to shut down homosexual bars and bathhouses that allow open sex because ‘They sell death there and we don't want this to go on. They don't give a damn.'” It is also interesting to note that it was reported in the New Zealand Times of 10 November that 12 European member States of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation had agreed on joint preventive measures to stem the spread of AIDS in their armed forces. The article stated: “The Belgian Defence Minister said yesterday that the decision by the informal association grouping of NATO members, except the United States, Canada, Iceland, and France, involved the systematic screening of blood donors.” That is eight NATO countries. Tonight's Evening Post states: “Americans are more aware of the fatal disease AIDS than South African strife or the Star Wars space missile defence system, according to a television news poll. The NBC poll just released also said six of every ten Americans surveyed believed the Government should place restrictions on the sexual activities of known AIDS carriers.” If the Bill is passed in its present form, homosexuals from overseas will come to New Zealand in their thousands. With the Bill legalising sodomy for 16-yearolds, and down to 12-year-olds by consent with a 16-year-old, those homosexuals on the Continent and elsewhere overseas who know they are at risk with their abnormal sex practices will come to this country. New Zealand will be looked upon as the Mecca for homosexuality and sodomy. What an attraction it will be to them! They will be able to come here and legally sodomise 16-year-old boys. Hon. Members: Ha, ha! NORMAN JONES: It is no laughing matter, and 835,000 people signed a petition saying they do not want a bar of it. If members of Parliament think that is amusing I draw to their attention a headline in the Auckland Star of last Friday: “Gay petition ballot poll”. The Auckland Star has not been a friend of the anti-homosexual reform petition people. It interviewed 400 people who had signed the petition-probably to discredit it-and to its everlasting credit it did a good job and said that 375 people had said they had signed the petition without any stress or coercion. Therefore 93 percent of the people who signed the petition were verified as being valid petitioners, honest, and sincere. That gives the lie; I say that the petition can be taken anywhere. I repeat that it is no laughing matter, and if the House is prepared to go against massive public opinion by passing the Bill we are opening up New Zealand. No other country in the world has passed legislation to normalise sodomy under a Human Rights Act and make it an acceptable life-style. If the Bill is passed in its present form the country will become a Mecca for thousands of homosexuals from Australia, the Continent, and America, who will jet in here. Our 16-year-olds are virgin territory. The Minister of Tourism will be able to advertise New Zealand to homosexuals throughout the world: “Come to New Zealand for sun, for scenery, and safe sodomy.” Hon. FRANK O'FLYNN: Ha, ha! NORMAN JONES: The Minister of Defence laughs, but he will have to accept it in the armed forces - that will take the smile off his face. The Minister of Police will have to accept it in the police service, and all the church organisations, the boy scouts, and the girl guides will also have to accept it. BILL JEFFRIES (Heretaunga): I move, That the question be now put. Mr SPEAKER: The question was that the Homosexual Law Reform Bill be now read a second time. The question now is that the Homosexual Law Reform Bill be read this day 12 months. In considering whether I should accept the closure I am conscious that most members have spoken and that the Bill has been before the House for 3 nights. I have listened to the arguments put forward by the mover of the amendment and am still unable to find any new arguments that have not already been put forward in opposition to the passage of the Bill. At present I am not prepared to accept the closure motion. However, I remind members that there are rules in the House about repetition, and that because the matter has been well aired, and it has been moved in the present motion that we should hear the matter again, I intend to impose the customary rules relating to repetition. Hon. GEORGE GAIR (North Shore): I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I ask for your thoughts, to clarify the matter. As this is a conscience motion, and as some members have not yet spoken and everyone has an equal right to seek your call, could some priority be given to those who have not yet had the call? Mr SPEAKER: It certainly will be. Mr TREVOR YOUNG (Eastern Hutt): Like all members, I have been giving deep consideration to the measure ever since it was introduced. I voted for the introduction of the Bill so that the matter could be studied in the House and we could receive a report from the select committee. I was disappointed in that report. I shall not be critical of the committee that carried out the investigation, as I know it was under time constraints, and that other work is before the House. However, I believe that the committee reported back on the Bill too soon. Like the member for Napier, I, too, believe that the matter deserves much deeper investigation than the House is able to give it. Knowing the pressures that members - who are elected to a democratic body - are under from people to vote one way or the other, I believe that, to get a balanced view of the problem, it would be preferable for an independent body such as a royal commission to study the subject and to report to the House. There is no other logical way in which the matter could be handled. I am concerned about the Bill, which I think is a bad one in the way it has been drafted and in some of the provisions it contains. At times I am at a loss to find the logic behind it. In order to establish that argument I have compared the present legislation with the Bill now before us. When the matter has been debated in the past decade it has been suggested that recognition should be given to the practice of homosexual acts by adults in private, and that they should not be subject to a sentence of imprisonment. However, the present Bill does not recognise the circumstances of adults but gives consideration to an age of consent of 16 years. From my soundings in the community-not only in my electorate and in the Wellington region generally, but also in other areas - it is obvious that there is objection to the age limit of 16 that is being applied in the measure. Apart from that, I am concerned that the Bill is an amendment to the Crimes Act. I think that at some stage it would be better for the House to concentrate on the whole Crimes Act and to weigh up the penalties provided in that Act and compare one with the other. Rather than deal with the matter of homosexual law piecemeal, as it is dealt with here, it needs to be considered alongside other provisions of the Crimes Act. It also needs to be considered alongside all of the law that applies to heterosexuals, for which the age of consent is 16 years. I am not convinced that what is provided for heterosexuals should necessarily follow for homosexual practices. However, despite what my prejudice might be, I think the matter needs further examination, and a report from people who are able to carry out forthright investigation. Members will know - and I am certain they have been subjected to the same sort of approaches as I have that there are variations of opinion between experts in the community, whether they be social workers, teachers, the police, medical authorities, and so on. There is no consistent attitude among the various professional groups we have approached. We have to be very cautious as we deal with the matter. It concerns me that, while under section 140 of the Crimes Act there is provision for a term of imprisonment for up to 10 years for indecent assault on, and indecent acts with, boys under the age of 16, the 10-year term of imprisonment will, under the Bill, relate only to indecent acts involving boys under the age of 12 years, and the term of imprisonment will be reduced to 7 years for indecent acts involving boys between the ages of 12 and 16 years. I do not think the community wants Parliament to reduce the term of imprisonment in those terms, because it suggests that the crime involving boys between 12 and 16 years of age is not so grave. It is a grave offence, and to reduce that term of imprisonment for indecency with boys between the ages of 12 and 16 is not warranted. I had hoped there would be a deeper report from the committee to justify the change in penalties, but there appears to be none. I am certainly not prepared to go along with the Bill in that respect. For the matter of sodomy-called anal intercourse in the Bill - the present law in the Crimes Act provides a term of imprisonment of 14 years if an act is committed on a girl or a woman, or if committed on a male under 16 years by another male who is 21 years of age or over. In the Bill the 14 years' imprisonment provision does not apply to any person between the ages of 12 and 16. That again is something I cannot endorse or accept. I am totally opposed to the variation in the penalty provisions between the present Act and the Bill. There is another matter in the Bill that really concerns me, and I think it needed deeper consideration by the committee. Clause 6 provides that keeping places as a resort for homosexual acts will no longer be an offence if the Bill is passed. In other words, the Bill will repeal that section of the present Act that states that, “Everyone is liable to imprisonment ... who keeps, or manages, or acts or assists in the management of, any premises used as a place of resort for the commission of indecent acts between males." I am concerned that we should remove that provision when considering any amelioration of the law in so far as it relates to imprisonment for acts by people in private by mutual consent. The Bill goes too far. Therefore I am not prepared to endorse it. When I read the provision contained in the Part II as it relates to the Human Rights Commission Act I find that many of the terms relating to sex and marital status are not defined in the legislation. If the House intends to proceed with the amendment to the Human Rights Commission Act to avoid the confusion that will arise between the definitions of “sex” and “sexual orientation", it would be less clumsy to define what is meant by “sex". The matter needs much deeper consideration than it has been given. Another matter that concerns me is whether the Bill should grant exemptions for certain organisations, on which the committee received some serious submissions from organisations such as the police, the military, and, to some extent, boarding or residential schools for young males. There has been no report whatsoever in relation to those very important submissions. Whether we agree with the submissions or not is one matter, but we cannot just cast them aside into the waste-paper basket and keep them out of sight. The Bill and the whole policy behind it need much deeper consideration. I agree with the suggestion made by my colleague the member for Napier, who has indicated what he will do in the Committee stage of the Bill in relation to postponing the Bill until proper investigation has been made, and even a referendum taken on the matter. The inquiry into the Bill was cut short for some of us for very good reasons. I agreed to accept the reporting back of the Bill on the basis that the select committee was not the appropriate committee to carry out a proper investigation of the Bill. Since then a very important submission has been made to all members by the Waikato Hospital. The Waikato Hospital is concerned about the consequences of some of the ill health that has been passed on to some medical practitioners when dealing with patients with hepatitis B, which has been associated with the practice of homosexuality in the past. The hospital indicates that while it seems that AIDS has been controlled and almost prevented in New Zealand because of restrictions imposed by the law, it foresees that health workers could be exposed to undesirable situations through their professional work. It believes that deep consideration should be given to the point of view of health workers. The hospital also refers to the Wolfenden report, the result of a royal commission of inquiry some years ago in Britain. Paragraph 52 of that report states: “We do not think that it is proper for the law to concern itself with what a man does in private unless it can be shown to be so contrary to the public good that the law ought to intervene." The medical staff of that hospital - and they are not alone in this - have underlined the words, “unless it can be shown to be contrary to the public good”. Members will know that that caution to us has been signed by the general and colorectal surgeon, by the superintendent-in-chief of that hospital, by the principal nurse, and by the senior supervisor of theatres, all in the interests of the staff. That is one item of evidence that was unable to be heard by the committee, or which the committee did not hear, and it is very important that that information should be examined. I am not happy with the Bill. It is a bad Bill. I fully accept that there are people with homosexual tendencies who are not of a criminal bent who live in the community. Some have confessed to me their homosexual orientation. They are citizens in the community who show no criminal intent and they live as peaceful and honourable citizens. There is an argument to reconsider the penalties provided in the legislation as they apply to adults, including the penalty of imprisonment. I intend to vote against the Bill. We do not want it. It is not the kind of reform that should go forward in the House. I hope that members will follow me into the lobby to vote against the Bill, to strike it dead at this point. If necessary, a committee or a commission should be set up to examine the matter fully and properly. Hon. WHETU TIRIKATENE-SULLIVAN (Southern Maori): I rise to support the amendment. In so doing I remind the House that there is no law against homosexuality, whether between males or between females. The law is against anal intercourse or sodomy, and indecent acts against males. Males may live together in private. Many do, as it is sensible and economic so to do. There is no law against that. There is certainly no law against renting a house to a homosexual male. I come back to the central and pivotal point in the Bill. The significance of the Bill is that it legalises sodomy. The significance of sodomy is that, whatever else, it is the principal means of passing on sexually transmissible diseases, particularly AIDS. In New Zealand we have had no option but to become aware of AIDS. The Government has funded AIDS prevention. AIDS is fatal. The Bill legalises the principal means by which people who do not have AIDS may become infected, and infected fatally. This is not the time for Parliament to legalise sodomy. It is grossly irresponsible for it to do so. The representatives elected by the voters must become accountable on this specific matter at this specific time in history. The Bill's coming in at this time must be seen in the light of the sexually transmitted disease, and it would be a selfish indulgence to take any other view. While it is a characteristic of the more elitist echelons in society to regard sodomy as the choice of those who practise it, parliamentarians, unlike the wider community reflected by the petition, cannot afford to be cavalier at a time when the scourge of AIDS is present. While the more highly educated, the academics, the more highly paid and affluent, and the more sophisticated in the ways of the world in any community are more prepared to regard sodomy as a normal and even acceptable behaviour, and while members of Parliament come into that élite category, we are the elected representatives of the people and must consider the Bill as one directly relating to social health. In all conscience, how can Parliament legalise the means of passing on a fatal disease? Strip the Bill down to its reality, and that is what it is about-seeking to legalise sodomy. I point out that there is not and never has been a law that criminalises homosexual orientation, friendship, partnership, or group membership; it is sodomy that is illegal. It is illegal because it is grossly unnatural, but also it has been the cause of sexually transmissible diseases-long before AIDS. AIDS is simply the latest addition to the known list, but AIDS is fatal and there is no known cure for it. That is the most valid reason for not legalising sodomy and for not regarding it as a legitimate option and a legitimate lifestyle. No one can suggest it is natural. However, the Bill seeks to legitimise it, and to vote in favour of the Bill means to vote in favour of legalising sodomy, right at a time when the AIDS epidemic has reached New Zealand. As I have said, that would be grossly irresponsible for Parliament at this time. In the last fortnight it has been suggested that there has been a breakthrough and that the drug cyclosporine-A, which was being used at the Laennec Hospital in Paris, would be the breakthrough against the killer virus AIDS. Only yesterday we in New Zealand learnt that that has already proved to be a false hope and that patients being treated with that drug have died. So the world still has not found a cure, and AIDS is fatal. I refer to my concern that during the select committee the only amendment made to clause 7 would have provided the defence for a 16-year-old who had committed sodomy against a 12-year-old. If the 16-year-old claimed that he thought the 12-year-old was also 16, that would be accepted as a valid defence. That would result in the possibility of 12year-olds being molested, and that it could be suggested that the 12-year-old not only consented, but that the sodomy occurred because the older person thought that the 12-year old was 16. I find that unacceptable and of much concern, and to think that that was the only amendment made when the Bill was before the select committee is one of the most curious things about the Bill and its passage through the House. I am concerned at the thought that a boy of 12 could be sodomised, yet the person who did that could have a valid defence by suggesting that he thought the boy was older. I shall refer to other research I have conducted, which highlights the importance of the man/boy homosexuality. It is the trend-which the committee's sole amendment to the Bill, as I said, could spearhead-towards a more popular and acceptable assumption in New Zealand. The problem of ageing male homosexuals who find themselves deprived of the family they have never formed is a crucial one. It is crucial for the homosexual political movement, which I referred to when I spoke in the House on 9 October. That problem, as much as the almost exclusive emphasis on sensual gratification, might explain the virtual worship of youth by homosexuals. That particular matter was researched by the American National Institute of Mental Health, which received a grant of $50,000. The research found that what I have asserted tonight was the case. It was proved that there is a particular interest in youth, by older male homosexuals in particular. Those who have researched the subject would be familiar with the North American Man/Boy Love Association, known as NAMBLA. I refer to that because before a select committee of which I was a member at an earlier time, and in connection with an earlier Bill on the subject, one of the principal witnesses supporting change said quite frankly to members of the committee that his aim was to see the age brought down because his particular interest was in young boys. That person is still active. He has been active in support of the Bill. He comes into the affluent academic category. It is well known that paedophile organisations exist in most English-speaking countries. It is sufficient for me to know that that is the particular preference of people who are still lobbying for a change in the law. I am particularly concerned because, should the Bill be passed in its present form, the board of a high school or boys' secondary school would have to establish house rules to prohibit homosexual practices, which would mean that the board could be placed in potential conflict with the law of the land. It would be intolerable if Parliament were to act so that a board of a boys' secondary boarding school would come into conflict with the law of the land because it wished to prevent homosexual practices within the school precincts. That would be an amazing feature of the Bill if it were passed as it is. I come to another aspect to which I alluded on 9 October. I shall speak about the legal protection of heterosexual relationships between a husband and a wife, as that involves a public judgment on the nature and purpose of sex, which is also implicit in the Bill. The judgment teaches that the proper exercise of sex is within the marital bond, because both the procreative and unitive purposes of sex are best fulfilled within marriage. The family alone is capable of providing the necessary stability for the profound relationship that sexual union symbolises and cements, and for the well-being of the children who issue from it. The legitimising of homosexual relations changes that judgment and the teaching that emanates from it. A so-called neutral attitude towards homosexual partnerships demotes heterosexual marriage. It is definitely demoted by an acceptance of homosexual partnerships and the legitimacy the Bill would confer upon them. It teaches and promotes an indifference where once there was an endorsement. If heterosexual sex is only a form of recreation, what could be wrong with a little sodomy, or even incest? The law of incest demolishes a suggestion made earlier by a group of doctors from Waikato Hospital that the law should not intervene over what a person does in private. That argument has no validity, as there are laws against consenting adults in private when the relationship involves incest. I come back to the so-called neutral attitude towards homosexual partnerships. It does demote marriage. It teaches and promotes an indifference where once there was endorsement, and far from not embodying any moral view, legal neutrality gives public status to and fosters a highly subjective view of love. One cannot abandon one standard without affecting all others. The Bill would do that. When we speak of man's nature we mean the ordering of man's being towards certain ends. It is the fulfilment of those ends that makes a man and a woman fully human. Since the time of Socrates we have called the good of mankind the state of the family. For Aristotle the good was happiness. Aristotle explained that happiness was achieved only through virtuous actions, the repetition of good deeds. Deeds are considered to be good and bad, natural and unnatural. For the Christ-centred believer, the New Testament is clear. The case for homosexuality is a vulgarisation of a philosophical anarchism that denies the existence of nature and therefore the ability to discriminate between the use and abuse of nature. Anthropology has invariably produced a group or two in which homosexual behaviour is accepted as normal-besides sodomy it includes incest - but mankind is unique in that we can affirm or deny our nature. That denial, however, in no way refutes its existence, any more than the denial of the law of gravity will keep one from falling. Socrates and Plato were unambiguous in their condemnation of homosexuality as unnatural. The intercourse of men with men or women with women is contrary to nature, and the bold attempt was originally because of unbridled lust. It is ironic that the proponents of homosexuality so often point to ancient Greece as their paradigm. The greatest contribution of ancient Greece to Western civilisation was philosophy. The very idea of nature and natural law arose as a product of that philosophy. Socrates and Plato were arguably the greatest exponents of natural law. The real crux of the natural law position is that, however many purposes an organ or any other natural object has, those purposes originate in nature and not in man's desires. The removal of the objective quality of human acts leaves the true reality residing in man's desires. That results in the reduction of morality to human intentions. А good intention-love-cannot change an unnatural act into a natural act. It will harm the nature of the person acting and the person acted upon, regardless of intent. Incest, pederasty, homosexuality, equated with heterosexual marriage is surely casuistry defined in human terms. Aristotle begins his Politics with the first condition for the existence of a polis as a man and a woman in the family. Try to imagine the essence of the political nation, the polis, composed only of homosexuals. Such a community would have to rely for its continued existence on recruitment alone. We cannot collapse the distinction between the nature of an act and the person performing the act. This critique is about the act, not the person. My argument on 9 October, and tonight, was a critique of the action and the standard if one legitimises that action and raises its moral level in the community. Each distinction we erase makes it harder for us to see or make other distinctions. Organised religion is not only the social institution to which the greatest number of people voluntarily belong, in New Zealand as in any other country, but it is probably the single most influential factor in the evaluation of behaviour. Some try to escape the influence of religion and even pretend to renounce its sway, denying that it provides its adherents with precise rules that enable them to ascertain the ethical qualities of their behaviour. It is not generally accepted that the attempt to renounce Christian religious tradition has been substituted with another religion: secular humanism is a religion. I make it clear to the House that the argument against Christian religion and the case mad in scripture is rarely supported even in the most ancient and noble philosophy that this country has accepted for some years in its academic institutions, with which many of us are familiar. The responsibility of the House to uphold those standards is so great that, limited though one's time is in the debate, it was important for me to choose that particular issue to fill most of my time this evening. I call on the sense of responsibility of the House to see the permutations of the Bill. I am particularly concerned for the young. My case-load, regrettably, makes me very much aware that the people I am most protecting are young boys. I shall say no more but that my case-load shows evidence of growing abuse since the start of the gay liberation movement. I have a particular concern about this subject, and perhaps that is why the Maori opinion that did not have time to express itself before the committee should be referred to. The hui amorangi expressed its strongest opposition to the Bill. NEIL MORRISON (Pakuranga): I rise to speak on the Bill because I believe in the first instance that it is basically a deception. As the member for Southern Maori has already said, there is no law against homosexuality; there never has been and there never will be. There is no law against two people of the same gender living together, there never has been and there never will be. This Bill is about anal intercourse, which is something different. It also has to do with the recognition of homosexuality as being natural and normal, and that came across in almost every submission to the Justice and Law Reform Committee on the 2 days I sat on it. I cannot support the concept that anal intercourse - or sodomy, as the existing law calls it-is normal and natural. I believe that is a biological absurdity, because it has no purpose and produces nothing, whereas vaginal intercourse produces life and creates life for an ongoing society. I would think that if we are here for anything else, the main reason is to build a healthy society, a prosperous society, a society that will continue on with strength and with ideas, and a society with a legacy to leave to our children who must look after us in our old age. I cannot support the idea that anal intercourse or sodomy is normal or natural and I find ludicrous the concept of having a law on the subject - with which 16-year-old and 12-year old boys could be involved in the heat of puberty. Everybody in every society needs some kind of guideline. One can go to the most primitive societies in the world - Papua New Guinea and societies in the middle of Africa where modern man has hardly ever been - and they all have some kind of structure, some kind of law, some kind of regulation, and some kind of tradition that people are expected to abide by. What concerns me in this aspect and in various other aspects of New Zealand society today is that we seem to be dismantling standards and casting them out of the window with nothing to replace them. That concerns me, as it concerns thousands of other people who, like myself, are not members of the so-called moral majority but are just normal, middle-of-the-road heterosexuals who want to see some normality and some reasonable standards in a society that prides itself on freedom. As I said in my speech this afternoon on law and order, freedom also requires responsibility. We cannot have one without the other. I find the idea of legalising sodomy-with the AIDS time bomb hanging over us - almost unbelievable. I could possibly go along with the legalising of homosexuality or anal intercourse at some other stage, but not at a time when there exists a literal time bomb that we cannot control, for which we have no cure, and for which there is not likely to be a cure in the foreseeable future. Here we are, as society's representatives, about to encourage further promiscuity, whether it be heterosexual or homosexual. Nature has a gruesome way of demanding a balance in life. It always will and it always has done. There has been a rise in promiscuity, both among heterosexuals and homosexuals, and nature demands a balance. I do not say that this is some kind of divine retribution. It is not - it is the normal law of nature that when there are changes of attitude on the part of human beings that come quickly, the laws of nature demand a balance. That is what they are doing now. The incidence of sexually transmitted diseases is rising around the world and spreading at a fearsome rate. I cannot see any point in encouraging that, whether it be by heterosexuality or by homosexuality. Like most people I do not stand here as a paragon of virtue, but it is different when we are legislating for the country and for future generations. I accept that there have been homosexuals for thousands of years and that there probably will be for the next few thousand years, regardless of what happens in the House. I do not know how a person becomes a homosexual - whether it is at the time of puberty, as some people claim, or whether it is because of some genetic difference at birth - and I do not really want to know. It is not of great interest to me or anybody else. The fact is that there are people who prefer those of the same gender as themselves. I know that a prosecution against a homosexual has not been brought for many years. I am aware also that there has been a dramatic change in public attitudes towards homosexuals, and that they have become more acceptable in our society. I recognise that, and think that few people would dispute it. However, the committee was told repeatedly that homosexuals do not really want the law to be changed but want to use the law as a means of changing society's attitudes towards them. I have not joined any travelling band to try to change people's attitudes one way or the other, because I believe that if people want to change their attitudes they can do that in their own good time. If the second part of the Bill is passed it will force a change on society, half of which does not want that change to happen. I have spoken to numerous people in my electorate in the past few weeks, many of whom were very disturbed at the way the petition was swept aside by the House. Over the past 8 or 9 years the Labour Opposition spoke a great deal about the terrors of government by the Executive, and told us how a Labour Government would bring democracy back into the House. Even if we accept that some of the signatures on the petition were incorrect - and let us put that figure at half - the petition with 400,000 signatures would still be the biggest in the country's history. I know of a few people who were distinctly disturbed that the petition received little or no recognition, and saw that as a betrayal of the lofty words spoken about democracy and the rights of little people to be heard in the House. I am disturbed by the second part of the Bill, and I find that, along with all the other things, there seems to be a slipping of standards or moral codes in our society. I accept that human beings, being what they are, will not all abide by all the standards and codes set, but as long as they are there everybody recognises that they are there and that gives society a track to move down and some guideline as to what is accepted and what is not accepted. I wonder if we are improving society by removing those moral codes, many of which are unwritten and many of which are not in law. I do not think we are. I have great reservations about a society moving in this direction. Along with many other people I also have some deep concern about the human rights part of the Bill. If that part of the Bill is passed it will be very difficult to administer any kind of discipline in the police service and the armed services. Further to that, thousands of parents send their sons to private secondary schools specifically to keep them away from homosexual behaviour. In a free society it is their right to decide what they believe is right or wrong, normal or abnormal. If the human rights part of the Bill is passed, parents would be powerless to do anything about anybody who might quietly coerce their children into what the parents consider to be an unnatural and abnormal way of life. We seem to be bent on dropping standards that have worked for us for hundreds of years. Surely one of the reasons we are here in this Chamber is to build an ongoing society. I find myself wondering what will come next. Will it be child sex? I cannot support the Bill. I recognise that there will be homosexuals who commit homosexual acts irrespective of the law. I accept that, but I cannot condone those acts, and I think that to condone them for an ongoing civilisation and for future generations would be a move in the wrong direction. I cannot support either the first or the second parts of the Bill, and I shall continue to oppose it. ROBIN GRAY (Clutha): Originally I had not much intention of speaking on the Bill, because I had made it perfectly clear in my electorate right from the start just where I stood on this issue. However, I am speaking tonight because the debate has been widespread throughout the community, and I feel I have a responsibility to put on record the reasons I am against the Bill. Having said that, I congratulate those on both sides of the issue who have seen fit to go out and debate their points of view in public. That is what democracy is all about, and I do not believe that we should feel any animosity towards those who take different points of view from our own. I say to those people who have been out putting forward their points of view that I do not think they have done too much harm to the debate. When I heard on a Thursday that the Bill was to be introduced the following day I went to my bed that night convinced that I should vote for its introduction. However, by 9 o'clock the next morning I had changed my mind. About 2 years ago it was suggested that this issue would be debated in the House. I set up a committee in my electorate of people who were on both sides of the issue, and people who, I believed, would give me a fair assessment of any investigations they undertook for me. As I said, I was determined to vote for the Bill's introduction. I rose at 5 o'clock on the Friday morning and tried to read the information I had been given, and by 9 o'clock I was convinced that the Bill should not be introduced and that I could not vote for it. Therefore I think it is right that I should say why I changed my mind. I changed my mind after reading what had been presented to me by people in my electorate. I became convinced that every male has a certain sense of homosexuality in him, and my reading told me that a young person does not become homosexual unless he has been in contact with a homosexual who has built up those feelings in him. If that is the case, I find it difficult to accept that a homosexual should be able to determine the future of another young person's life. That is why I cannot vote in favour of the Bill. Many people have said that Christians do their cause no good if they cannot accept another man's point of view. I say unashamedly that I try to lead a Christian life, and I say unashamedly that it does not give me the right to bring down sharp judgment on another person. However, I do believe that I must take a responsible attitude as I see it. I cannot place the future of young people at stake by enabling them to become homosexual when they were not really meant to be so. I have considered the arguments about AIDS and the dire consequences that disease could have on society. However, my real feelings on the matter are that New Zealand society should be built on a stable family relationship. I believe that the greatest pleasure any man or woman can share is a happy family marriage. That is still the cornerstone of our society, and I can find nothing to take away first place from the family home. I realise that not everyone will agree with me. However, I cannot see how that stable family relationship can be maintained if we allow homosexuality to spread throughout society. There are many people who believe that the moral standards of society are slipping. It is easy for politicians to stand in the House and say, purely for votes, that we should allow the Bill to proceed because it is popular. However, I do not believe that that is our role as members of Parliament. I believe that for occasions such as this I have been chosen to represent my electorate on the basis of what it saw in me, and the standards it expects me to uphold in the Chamber. When I return to my electorate I believe I can look my constituents in the face and say, “Ladies and gentlemen, I stood up at the time of my election and said that I would maintain a high standard of living for the people in my electorate." I will not bow to pressure groups or to people who think differently from me, just for the sake of a few votes. The decision to vote against the Bill was not made lightly. I have read a great deal on a subject the pros and cons of which I had no intention of studying. I have received letters from personal friends who have revealed to me that they are homosexual. Male constituents, aged 34 and 35 years of age, whose parents I know well have come to me and said: “Mr Gray, I want you to vote for the Bill, because I am a homosexual, but mum and dad do not know about it." I feel for those people, and I realise the responsibility they have placed on my shoulders as a member of Parliament. However, I cannot see anything for society other than a stable family home comprising mum, dad, and the kids. The Bill would ruin that. MARY BATCHELOR (Avon): It had not been my intention to speak in the debate again, because it is not the first time in the 13 years I have been in the House that this issue has confronted members. However, I am surprised that so much time has been devoted to the issue. I can think of other issues that are far more important to every individual in our society, rather than just to one group. It seems to me that an issue that involves a small group of people is taking precedence over issues that are more important to the majority of people. The Bill concerns the actions of consenting adults in private. I have debated the issue before during the 13 years I have been a member of Parliament, and I can remember saying at other times that heterosexual acts performed in the privacy of bedrooms might perhaps upset some people and even disgust other people. However, those acts are not known about. Why is a line drawn between the heterosexual and the homosexual in the matter of what consenting adults do in the privacy of their homes? There is no law against one; why, then, should there be a law against the other? Why is one different from the other? I stress that I am talking about the behaviour of consenting adults in private, and it seems to me that that is the crux of the matter. I shall vote in favour of the decriminalisation part of the Bill. It appears to be a different argument when a person becomes an adult. As I understand it, the law recognises that a girl aged 16 has the right to consent, but it does not state at what age a boy may ask. It is illegal for a male to have a sexual relationship with a girl who is under 16 years of age. I cannot really agree with the many people who have written to me stating that, in fairness, the law must be the same for each. The idea in the Bill of setting the age at 16 just does not jell with me. It seems to me that, while the law states that 16 years is the age of consent, there is no responsibility on those of either sex to ensure that their actions will not have some reaction on society itself. I think that has been proved by the number of young people who are at present receiving the domestic purposes benefit. I have said before in the House-and members may be tired of hearing it - that with every right goes a responsibility also. I do not see that 16 is a necessary age to be included in the Bill , but I make the point that a law that is made in the House must be a law that is fair, just, and equitable to every citizen. I do not think that we should make laws that favour one group or give special assistance to a particular group of people, and I do not care how loud, vocal, or militant that group is. If we are to be a true House of Representatives and make laws that affect each individual fairly there should be no need for any special bodies to be set up to concern themselves with those particular groups. It is people, and the individual within society, who matter. The law we make in the Chamber should care about that. For that reason I am not happy that the second part of the Bill concerns itself with human rights legislation. I have never been a fan of setting up a Human Rights Commission that deals with certain segments of the population. Are we to make laws that are just and equitable to everybody? Surely that is our job and our first concern. Individuals within our society have the right to expect that they will be governed fairly. They have a right to expect that they will be given fair treatment by the laws made in the House. I do not favour that part of the Bill that will give to one section of society greater rights than any other section. I do favour decriminalisation, so that consenting adults who have a sexual orientation different from that which society has been educated to accept as normal will have the right to act in private as consenting adults in the manner that turns them on. I am also concerned that we have spent so much time debating the issue. I think of all the varied issues that affect every member of society, and that receive nominal opposition and are then allowed to pass, and I wonder why the prejudices inherent in all of us - and so obvious in many of us - are allowed to take precedence in the debating chamber. I have been away from New Zealand for 2 weeks. I must admit that, having listened to some of the debate on this matter in the weeks before I left the country, I had thought that at least the vote on the second reading would have been taken by the time I returned. Instead, I find that there are members in the House-mainly on the Opposition benches - who are prepared to spend the taxpayers' money in continuing to stonewall the legislation, and who are prepared to put up amendment after amendment to keep the legislation going. When those members return to their electorates they should answer for wasting taxpayers' time. There are few times in the debating chamber when individual members of Parliament have the right to stand up and speak according to what they believe, when members are not bound by a party line or by a manifesto given to the people before an election. That is something that I and many others in the Chamber believe to be an important right. I believe that it is right that the view of consenting adults in private should be adhered to regardless of whether they are homosexual or heterosexual, provided it does not interfere with society. Therefore the part of the Bill that provides for that has my full support. I am not at all happy with the rest of the Bill, and believe that we should move slowly in this direction. The Bill goes too far, too fast. I shall vote for the Bill only on the basis that changes will be made to it in the Committee stage. JOHN BANKS (Whangarei): The member for Avon complains that the House has spent a great deal of time on the issue during the past five, six, seven, or eight Wednesdays, yet she has the temerity to accuse the House of wasting time on a matter that is not very important to her. I serve notice on that member that the issue is one of the most important that the House will ever debate, because for some of us - and unfortunately we are in the minority - it means an erosion of the family unit, the most important thing in a democracy and the building block of society. This so-called social reform is a threat to the family unit and to democracy as I know it, and as my friends on this side of the House understand it. We would much rather be talking about the plight of farmers who are walking off the land, housewives and their daily costs, house owners and the very real cost they face in servicing their mortgages, and many other important economic issues. Nothing is more important than the total fabric of a society and, in simple terms, what is right and what is wrong. The Bill is wrong because we stand here tonight and will soon pass through into the lobbies to decide whether we should, by statute, legalise the act of sodomy for boys of 16 and males over that age. That is what members will vote for: whether Parliament should say that sodomy for boys over the age of 16 years is right or wrong. I say that it is wrong; my friends on this side of the House say that it is wrong; 800,000 New Zealanders who signed the petition say that it is wrong. That is why I support the amendment moved by my colleague the member for Invercargill. Perhaps time will bring some common sense to those members who want to make so-called social reform so quickly that they will do so much damage to the nation. During the past week an argument has been raised that homosexual practice is not immoral but is an alternative sexual orientation. It is said that it is as moral and normal as heterosexual practice. That is what those people say and that is what they believe. They believe that both the existing legislation against homosexual practice and the opposition in general are an infringement of human rights. They say they are discriminatory and show a lack of tolerance, and that the nation is intolerant. They put up the spurious argument that New Zealand, Ireland, a few other countries, and perhaps some states in the United States and Australia still make homosexual practice a criminal offence, and that that is bad. They say that homosexual practice is not harmful to others. They say that homosexual practice is not immoral, and they are certain that if Parliament passes the Bill homosexuality will eventually become acknowledged as a morally acceptable sexual practice. That is the expectation of the so-called gay movement. The international gay movement has been busy in this country in recent days. What is morality? Are moral values merely relative to present social practice? Are they here today and gone tomorrow? Is it O. K. for homosexual practice to be moral but violence to be immoral? A popular thought is that any action is O. K. provided it does not hurt anyone else. Is that what the Prime Minister thinks - that any action is O. K. provided it does not hurt or offend one's brother, sister, or neighbour? Proponents of the Bill say that both the existing legislation against homosexual practice and opposition to it in general are infringements of human rights. It is said that the prohibition of homosexual practice is seen as an infringement of human rights and as being discriminatory and intolerant of others. To them, it is morally wrong to impose one's views on others. That argument cuts both ways. They say: “It is wrong for you as a legislator to impose your views on me because of my sexual orientation.” Is the Bill not the product of radical, liberal, and moral relativists who seek to impose their views on me? It is argued that New Zealand is one of the few countries in the world in which homosexual practice is criminal. Many nations that have liberal homosexual laws engage in war. Does that mean that it is good and right and has a bearing on the matter before the House? New Zealand may just be the bastion of everything that is good in a democracy, such as the family unit, and that is under threat tonight. Tonight will prove to be one of the blackest for Parliament. That is what most New Zealanders are saying, and that is what most people in my electorate are saying. The day the Bill receives its second reading will be a black day. In a recent poll in my electorate 188 persons' views were sought: 156 persons - 99 women and 57 men - said they supported their local member of Parliament and did not want changes; only 32 persons, of whom 22 were women and 10 were men, said “Yes”. Most people in my electorate said “No” to the Bill, and I share their view. It is only because I share their view that I will walk through the Noes lobby with my friends. It is said that homosexual practice is a preference and not an orientation. It is said that it is not morally wrong and is not detrimental to society. I believe that it is harmful to others. It is socially false and incompatible with the natural family structure we should be promoting. If the Bill is passed it will have an evil, insidious consequence for future generations of New Zealanders. That is why the House should support the amendment to delay the second reading of the Bill in the hope that common sense will prevail amongst those members who fancy themselves as social reformers in the interest of the nation. My opposition to this reform is based on a wide range of arguments that are compelling when brought together. They all relate to the need for decent societies to maintain and set standards by which people should live. The great moral laws of the Christian world have their foundations in teachings that have come down over thousands of years. Those standards are not severe, bigoted, or censorious; they are basically and fundamentally decent. When we deliberately allow those laws or standards of behaviour to be compromised or diminished the fundamental fabric of society is weakened and undermined. Right now the fundamental moral fabric of the nation is weak, and tonight's action by some members will undermine it. There is no doubt that some of the laws we set ourselves, based on Christian ethics, are broken by some of us from time to time, and some are broken by all of us. That does not mean that the laws themselves are wrong or unsoundly based. The fact that laws are broken is no argument for society as whole to lower its moral standards, or for society to repeal those laws. Society must set standards of behaviour for itself. Just as it cannot allow general lawlessness and crimes of dishonesty against its citizens, it cannot condone the activities of people who would seek to damage or destroy themselves. The Bill will give licence to a large section of the community that would not otherwise have the opportunity to damage or destroy itself. For that reason we have laws against drug abuse, speeding, offensive language, prostitution, self-mutilation, suicide, and other acts of self-denigration. In my view the laws relating to homosexual behaviour come into that category. Society legislates against so-called victimless crimes-not only for the protection of the individual, but also for its own well-being. The resultant laws are not designed to punish; they simply seek to ensure that our community is safe. Laws are designed to seek security for our community and to ensure that it is a decent and healthy place in which to live and bring up a family. I believe in my heart-but the Prime Minister, who is trying to interject, does not - that the Bill will bring down some of the building-blocks that are the strength of the nation: a healthy and decent family environment. If we shy away from taking such a stand it will become impossible for society to accept any standard at all. I know that the Prime Minister could not care less about that. His greed and lust for power are obvious. If Parliament gives in and allows homosexual acts between consenting males aged 16 years of age and over it will eventually face the same demands in relation to the crime of incest between consenting adults. The Prime Minister probably supports that. Does he support the legalisation of prostitution, euthanasia, and other unacceptable practices? Will a private member's Bill be introduced this time next year to lower the age of consent for homosexual activities, including anal intercourse, to 15 years of age, 13 years of age, or 12 years of age? Society must take a stand somewhere. As the member of Parliament for Whangarei, this is the time for me to take such a stand, and I make no apology to the Chair, to Parliament, or to anyone else for adopting delaying tactics in an effort to stop this evil and insidious Bill from lurching into our society and usurping what is good. In taking that stand I am not suggesting that the present laws are perfect, but I do claim that they have benefited society far more than their critics would acknowledge. They have served to discourage people from promoting homosexual behaviour as a right and proper way of life. They have suppressed homosexual soliciting and the flouting of homosexual behaviour in most public places. They have been a source of support for parents of young families who are concerned about the level of depravity confronting children in society today. Above all, the present laws have been a clear statement by society at large that it wishes to maintain normal and acceptable standards of behaviour and decency. The Bill does not do that. My opposition to it relates to the need for all of us to maintain and set standards. In taking that position I do not disregard the very real difficulties facing homosexual people, nor am I lacking in compassion for their predicament, but the answer does not lie in society's weakening or lowering its standards of acceptable behaviour and morality by passing laws such as the Homosexual Law Reform Bill. PETER NEILSON (Miramar): I move, That the question be now put. Mr SPEAKER: When the motion was last put before the House I did say that I would be guided by the degree of repetition. I then heard two speeches in which new material was raised almost consistently, but the repetition has come back into the debate and I am not disposed to allow it to continue much longer merely to repeat arguments, contrary to the requirements of the House. I am also aware that there are some members who want to speak who have not yet spoken at all in the debate, but there are also others who are speaking for a second time. I am not prepared to accept the motion now, but I will weigh the matter up as the debate goes on. GARY KNAPP (East Coast Bays): First, I do not wish to be associated with the delaying tactics used on the Bill, and I will demonstrate that by opposing the amendment. I think Parliament should now vote on this matter. It has had ample time in which to debate it, and I think we know where we stand. Nevertheless, I will not support the Bill in the second reading, either. I say at the outset that I have not spoken on this matter until now. First, I congratulate the member for Wellington Central on having the courage of her convictions. It was a brave thing for her to do, and I suspect that she has come in for an inordinate amount of abuse and behaviour of the kind that members of the House will be familiar with from time to time. She would have had more than her share of it. Nevertheless, having listened carefully to elements of the debate in the Chamber, and taking into account the volume of communication I have had from people outside this place - both within my electorate of East Coast Bays and in other parts of the country-I have not been persuaded. I have encouraged members of the gay community to communicate with me. I have listened carefully to their points of view, and have put my own view to them in order to hear their answers to my concerns. The result is that at this stage at least I cannot support the Bill. I hope I can explain some of my reasons in the time available to me. As this has been my first opportunity to speak on the matter, I must say that I have been appalled at the arguments and the behaviour of extreme elements on both sides of the issue in the way they have conducted their case. I think both sides have done damage to themselves and have done very little to add real substance to the argument, or to help those of us who have a genuine concern to make the right decision for the community at large. I know that those opposed to the legislation have often relied on unsubstantiated prejudices of the most obtuse and ridiculous kind, and have damaged what I believe is a powerful argument. Those in favour of the Bill have resorted to threats and to other tactics that do them and their case no credit whatsoever. My difficulty with the issue has been to separate my personal affection for, and friendship with, individual members of the gay community, whom I have known and have had regular contact with for many years, from the case of the community and my own deep-seated abhorrence, as a male, of the homosexual act. That has probably been my greatest struggle, and I suspect it is a struggle that many members have had to cope with. The nature of the opposition to the homosexual act is deep-seated, and has been described by supporters of the Bill as prejudice. If it is prejudice it is a natural prejudice, and as natural as the prejudice against incest. It is not necessarily a prejudice born of ignorance, although I freely acknowledge that the argument is frequently surrounded by ignorance. Nevertheless, the prejudice is deep-seated and natural. To my mind, incest is another sexual preference. I am not sure how many members have had contact with adults who are locked into incestuous relationships that they consider to be deep and meaningful, but as a member of Parliament I have had some contact with such people. Their arguments for recognition of their position almost parallel those that could be made for the Bill. I have attempted to be fair to myself and to my constituents, who, I freely acknowledge, are split down the middle on the matter, as is my own family. I have tried to approach the matter as a father of a 13-year-old son and a 15-year-old daughter, with whom I have discussed the subject at length. I was interested to learn how well informed they were about the debate. When I was asked what my fatherly advice would be to my son I had some difficulty, but approached the matter in this way: I suggested to him that if he came to me as a young man of 17 or 18 and confided in me that he felt he was homosexual, and genuinely had that feeling, my reaction would be one of personal anguish and hurt. Some of it would be selfish because I would realise immediately that if my son was genuinely locked into that kind of sexual preference he would probably not produce grandchildren for me, and the things I would look forward to from having grandchildren. So that is a selfish motivation. But as a father I would know and feel deeply that he would not enjoy fatherhood and those things that, to me, are probably the greatest motivation for all of us, whatever status in life we occupy, or seek to occupy. I could not help myself; I would feel deep disappointment. I might try to hide it from him. It is not something that members of the gay community want to hear very often, and I can understand that, but for me it would be a thing of anguish, desperately disappointing in much the same way that, if his sister were to tell me that she could not have children for some medical reason, I would be desperately disappointed for her, and for myself. So if my son, who goes to a boys' boarding school, were to say to me, “What do you think, Dad? Is it on?”, my answer would be, “No, I do not think it is. I think you had better give it a miss." I do not know how I could handle it any better than that. We might discuss it in detail, but that is what it would come down to. That would be my summing-up: “I think you had better give it a miss. I don't think it is natural. I don't think it is something I would like you to get involved in if you are considering doing it just as a casual activity." The difficulty we have to grapple with is that the homosexual act has been sold to us on the basis that human rights elements are involved. The argument is that it should be reasonable to allow those persons locked into homosexual relationships to enjoy and live out a normal life. Why should they be labelled as criminals? Why should they be condemned by the Christian community or the community at large, because of a different sexual preference? People may want to call it by different names; I would tend to call it a biological difference. They argue a powerful case for being able to live out their lives normally, and not being treated as criminals in the community. The argument does seem to have some weight, except that if the Bill dealing with that element of homosexuality is passed it will create the new victims. Over the months in which the debate has proceeded it has confirmed for me that while some people are undoubtedly born to that sexual preference many are not. A great many people are influenced into homosexuality by the conditions of their environment. There is ample evidence that that is so. Therefore anything that we do in the way of allowing for the promotion of that activity is likely to draw in new people, young people unnecessarily destined to be locked into what I consider to be a terrible sexual condition, something I would not want to be involved in and about which I feel deeply. Even though homosexual people do not want my pity or my compassion, and would not thank me for it, they want me to recognise that they are no different from me. Yet they are different. The other victim is the one we have not heard too much about. It is incidental to the Bill; nevertheless, it should be mentioned. The Bill deals with an element within the Crimes Act and seeks to repeal the section that prohibits anal intercourse. That section of the Crimes Act prohibits anal intercourse for everybody, and not just for members of the gay community. I freely recognise that we cannot effectively police the law, but, nevertheless, it is a statement the community has made about that act. If we pass the Bill I believe that many women in heterosexual relationships will become new victims. There are many women who live in less than perfect home conditions, who live in less than desirable sexual environments, and who have to put up with all kinds of activities bordering on abuse. They are locked in. They have no way out for many reasons. As the law stands those women do not have to prove that they did consent-they at least have that protection against being sodomised or being submitted to anal intercourse by a belligerent or difficult mate. They merely have to show evidence that that has occurred, and their husbands, or whoever they are cohabiting with, will have some explaining to do. I shall be interested in the arguments if I am wrong, but it appears to me that the Bill will lock those women into having to prove that they did not consent to their husbands' sodomising them. The reality is that they will not be able to do that and they will become victims, silent victims like many who suffer from incest. My concerns have led me to oppose the Bill. It is only fair to say that if the present code of penalties were to be enforced by the police service, and if the community demanded that it be enforced I would be extremely concerned, because the criminal penalty is totally out of line with what I believe is the basic position of the community on this issue. It is a great pity the Bill had not been crafted in such a way as to take us to the very edge of decriminalisation but not quite across the line. My feeling is that society was proceeding in the right direction on this issue, with many people starting to break down their prejudices and attitudes to the homosexuals within the community as individuals, and it was probably in the best interests of the community that it should have continued that way. The Bill has brought the arguments into the open and has polarised the community. It has probably done no good. My personal view would be for a very severe reduction in the penalty codes that surround the act, but not to the point of condoning it or sanctioning it, which is what Parliament would do if it passes the Bill in any of the shapes or forms suggested so far. There is an element of homosexuality that members have not talked about very much. My contact with the gay community has given me two particular concerns. The first is that homosexuality is very commercial, and the second is that it is very trendy. The nature of the community is such that if the Bill is passed there will undoubtedly be an expansion of commercial activity surrounding homosexuality and the gay community, although I do not wish to be among those who are suggesting that the whole community is likely to go gay or that the whole of society will fall apart. More young people will undoubtedly be locked into a homosexual existence, for whatever reason. I know many gay people, some still within the community, who now consider themselves to be bisexual and some who have been gays and are now back into heterosexuality. They testify openly to an extent that I certainly cannot deny that young people, especially young males, are locked into the kind of society we expose them to as young boys - becoming young men, and trying to find their sexuality. Because of the nature of male sexuality, many get distracted and end up with the gay community. For many it is an absolute tragedy. I think the Bill will probably be passed. I suspect that the numbers are there. I should like the House to vote on it tonight. We have spent enough time on it and I think I have heard every argument that can be raised on it. I cannot support the Bill, but I have given the matter enormous consideration, and it would be fair to say that I have learnt a lot and have probably softened my position a little, but not enough. PETER DUNNE (Ohariu): I move, That the question be now put. Mr SPEAKER: I am faced with the problem of knowing that there are members who have not yet spoken, but I am aware that they have not been rising to seek the call. The position relating to whether it would be appropriate to put the question is very different from that which normally applies, as this is a private member's Bill. I therefore sought an opinion in Speakers' Rulings and I go back to the first ruling on the matter after it was introduced by Speaker Statham. He ruled: “It now devolves upon me to say whether I think that putting the question to the House as proposed would be an infringement of the rights of the minority of the House or do violence to the rules of the House. I think, under the circumstances, seeing that the matter has been before the House for practically two whole sittings, it would not be an abuse of the privileges if I allowed the House in its wisdom to decide whether or not the question should now be put. I therefore put the question (That the question be now put).” WINSTON PETERS: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker! GRAEME LEE: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker! Mr SPEAKER: I am in the midst of ruling. It is that ruling that has guided me. Two whole sittings were seen to be an appropriate time right from the beginning for the imposition of this ruling. I have been hearing more repetitive argument as the debate has gone on, and unless someone can convince me that there is another member wanting to speak who has not taken part in the debate I propose that the motion be put. ROGER McCLAY (Waikaremoana): I seek the call. Having assumed that my colleague who moved the motion you are now discussing had not spoken, and was seeking to speak, I was willing to listen. Therefore I seek the call, not having spoken. Mr SPEAKER: Yes; Mr McClay. ROGER McCLAY: Thank you for the opportunity to speak. Obviously most members of Parliament have now made their point of view known. Like all members, I have listened carefully to the arguments, and tonight, as on other nights, I have been impressed with the arguments and convictions of those who have spoken in the debate. I was particularly proud this evening to count myself as a friend of the member for Clutha, who spoke so well, so genuinely, so wisely, and with such sincerity, as did the member for Southern Maori. I have heard her speak before on this measure and I respect her point of view, as I respect the points of view of all members. I also compliment those who, with genuine intent, have sought to ask the House not to proceed with the Bill at this time, and that is why I shall vote in favour of the amendment moved by the member for Invercargill. There may well be people in New Zealand who do not have the genuine interest that my friends in Parliament who have been leading the fight on the Bill have. I have received a lot of correspondence, as have all members. I believe that most of it has been genuine. Some of it has been abusive, and some of it has even been threatening. None of the abusive or threatening correspondence has to my knowledge come from anyone in my electorate. Some of the correspondence I have received has been rather sad and has been decidedly from the heart. I received a letter from a man in Auckland whose parents live in my electorate. He said he was homosexual and was required to live away from home because of some victimisation he had experienced when he was younger. I also received, quite independently, a letter from his parents. They are friends of mine and they have put their case to me, and I have spoken with them. I respect their point of view. I have received letters and telegrams from individuals in the teaching profession, of which I was a part. In one case senior teachers of a school sought actively to make known to me as their member of Parliament their disagreement with the teachers' union proposals and its stance on the Bill. I hope those individuals will not be subject to any victimisation for their stand against the tenor of the Bill. I shall speak about the issues others have spoken of. As a member of Parliament I am disappointed at the way in which the petition was treated by the select committee and then by Parliament. It was undoubtedly the biggest petition in New Zealand's history. Some signatures would have been invalid, of course, but if half or three-quarters of them were invalid the number of valid signatures from people who do not want the legislation to be passed is still impressive. I am amazed and disappointed that Parliament would not accept the petition. I was sorry that people in Wellington found it necessary to write to the chairman of the select committee to express their concern about his conduct. They said they were disappointed to note his actions in issuing a press release condemning the anti-homosexual law reform petition before it was heard by the select committee. I believe that the chairman made an unwise move. I have not been subjected to too much abuse. To the mover of the Bill and to those who have been most vociferous in opposing it around the country I tender the apologies and concerns of New Zealanders, no matter what side of the argument they are on. I say that because I believe I know who the genuine members on this issue are, and it is regrettable that both sides have resorted to tactics that have come down to personalities and not to the issues. Perhaps it is difficult not to get down to personalities when discussing personal issues such as the one we are being asked to make a judgment on this evening. I have not sought to have a high profile on the issue, but people in my electorate understand my point of view and I believe that most of them respect that view, as I do theirs. Punishment by law, is not acceptable, of course, and in the reading I have done and the questions I have asked I have not been able to find any evidence of people being punished by the law, except when they had victimised those who did not want to take part in the activities that occurred. I support the member for Napier in his call for a royal commission. I also support the amendment by the member for Invercargill, because that would give us time for further reflection, and more time to have a commission or a referendum or whatever is suitable to allow the wishes of New Zealanders to be measured beyond any doubt. I feel strongly that most New Zealanders do not want the measure to be passed. I know that people of the opposite view feel just as strongly that the measure should be passed. By moving the amendment the member for Invercargill wants New Zealanders to have the opportunity to make quite plain what their wishes are. The Christian point of view has been put. In my electorate it is a mixed point of view. I shall quote the view of Dean Rhymer: “To accept homosexuality and heterosexuality as of equal worth does not stand up to rational inquiry. There is a contradiction between the two, which will never be bridged. The tension within the proposed solution is seen when homosexuality is a legitimate alternative to heterosexuality. This means that in schools the alternative lifestyles will be taught as part of the education for living. Further, homosexuals could ask to be married either by the State or by the church. Permission to adopt children could not be withheld. It is not enough to say that their right of freedom demands a change in the law. If freedom means the licence to do anything, then all actions must be permitted. However, if freedom demands a self-discipline in response to a rule we may rightly ask what is the rule which gives the freedom required in the Bill. That rule I have yet to read.” The argument concerning health matters, particularly AIDS, does engender some fear and trepidation in the minds of people. There are indisputable facts from other countries. We know that in America AIDS is a predominantly homosexual disease. Homosexuals make up 73 percent of all AIDS victims in the United States. We know that AIDS victims die. More than 75 percent of pre-1983 victims are now dead. Every homosexual known to have had AIDS in 1979 is dead, and 92 percent of the 1980 victims are dead, too. In the past 6 months there has been a 101 percent increase in the number of victims in the United States alone. We must decide upon these matters, and none of us would say it was an easy decision. Pressure tactics can be treated with some suspicion, but the issue is obviously a major public issue about morality. Tonight, fewer than 100 human beings who happen to have the privilege of being members of Parliament at this moment in 1985 will make a decision for more than 3,000,000 people, of whom 50 percent voted at the last election without giving a thought to an issue of this nature, but who probably have now indicated positively, by way of the petition and correspondence to their member, that they are opposed to the Bill. That is a significant matter that all members must reflect upon. The Bill will do nothing to achieve what I suspect the homosexual community wants most. All human beings, whether or not their activities are illegal at present, want to be accepted. Every person needs to be accepted as a person, and as a person who matters. The passing of the Bill may well lessen the acceptance that there could be in society already. I ask my colleagues to consider whether the second reading of the Bill this evening will enhance homosexuality, and, more important, the acceptance of homosexuals. I think not. I think there will be much less acceptance of homosexual behaviour. I think there is acceptance of the people who are categorised as homosexuals, by themselves and other people, rather than of their behaviour. I am not happy about the present law on homosexual behaviour for several reasons. It appears to be different for men than for women. The punishments are probably inappropriate. The law encourages a sustained effort by some people to prove that homosexual behaviour is normal and should be permissible and treated as normal acceptable behaviour. I am, however, even more unhappy about what is proposed by the member for Wellington Central. The Bill removes from the law any notion that sodomy is wrong. The Bill does not call it sodomy, but refers to “anal intercourse”. Sodomy is defined in the dictionary as “an unnatural act between males or between a human and an animal”. The Bill does not provide adequate protection against the corruption of the young. Other countries do not permit what this Bill proposes. Rt. Hon. DAVID LANGE: You should change your dictionary. ROGER McCLAY: It is regrettable that the Prime Minister speaks in this debate by way of interjection. I believe that he should take the call and make his personal view known, rather than continuing to interject as he has this evening. In Britain the minimum age of consent is 21, in Australia it is 18, but it is proposed that it should be 16 years in New Zealand. What is more, it will be sufficient defence that a person who is charged believed with reasonable cause that the boy was aged 16, even though he might be only 12 years old. It has not been shown anywhere in the world that bringing the activities of homosexuals “out of the closet” has decreased the incidence of AIDS. My strongest objections are to Part II, which amends the Human Rights Commission Act 1977. This is the part that can make criminals out of employers who decline to employ, and out of landlords, businessmen and businesswomen, and educationists. The headmaster of a school will not be free to refuse employment to a practising gay teacher, male or female. If he did he could be adjudged criminal before the High Court. I draw to the attention of the House the implication of the Bill in relation to youth hostels such as those of the Young Men's Christian Asociation. The Bill does not correct the harsh law-it turns it around completely. Therefore I shall oppose it. It appears to me that with the advent of the Bill people could build an argument that from then on good will be evil and evil will be good in the eyes of the law. It is not only right-wing fundamentalists who oppose the Bill; no communist country in the world would pass it, and no Muslim or Hindu country would consider it, or pass it. Only countries in which large numbers of people have the right and freedom to speak, and that have large numbers of people in the category of the much maligned Christians of our nations, would consider or allow these laws. I shall vote against every stage of the Bill. MARGARET AUSTIN (Yaldhurst): I move, That the motion be now put. Mr SPEAKER: I realise that the debate has reached the stage at which repetition has become the rule rather than the exception. I intend to let the House decide whether the motion should be put. If the House decides that it should not be put, the debate will continue. Hon. TONY FRIEDLANDER (New Plymouth): I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Can I take it from your ruling that I may not speak in the debate on behalf of my electorate? Mr SPEAKER: I am saying that the House will decide by its vote whether the debate will continue. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON (Papakura): I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Before you finally put that question, may I refer you to Standing Orders 213 and 214. Standing Order 213 relates to amendments to question for second reading. It states that amendments may be moved in certain circumstances. As the House knows, the member for Invercargill so moved an amendment a week ago, and we have since heard several speakers, many of whom have spoken for the first time. Standing Order 214 relates to the relevance of amendments: “No other amendment may be moved to the question for the second reading of a Bill unless it is strictly relevant to the Bill ...". The amendment moved by the member for Invercargill conforms with Standing Orders 213 and 214. My point is that not every member has had the opportunity to speak in the debate so far, and the member for New Plymouth is a case in point. If we are to consider the amendment seriously, may I suggest that members who have not yet participated in the debate be given your leave to do so, not only for reasons that apply to any private member's Bill, but also for reasons that apply to the responsibility that a private member has to constituents. Mr SPEAKER: The position is that, as well as the members who had been called, by arrangement-as the House knew- a list was kept of those members who wanted to be called. I have the list, and it has been exhausted. Hon. TONY FRIEDLANDER: Where is that in the Standing Orders? JOHN BANKS: What list? Mr SPEAKER: Order! I remind members that I am on my feet. It is not my decision to stop the debate, because it is a free debate. When Government members and Opposition members are in contention members know that the Government majority will succeed. However, this is a free debate, and there are no Whips. I will give the House the opportunity to decide whether the debate should be concluded. The question before the House is that the motion be now put. NORMAN JONES (Invercargill): I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I draw it to your attention that the Standing Orders have been contravened. The member for Yaldhurst moved “That the motion be now put", when, it fact, the motion should have been “That the question be now put." Rt. Hon. DAVID LANGE: That's very important! NORMAN JONES: It is important, and it is out of order. You cannot accept the motion, sir. There is a tradition that the motion should be “That the question be now put”. No other form may be used. I have been ruled out of order for moving an incorrect motion. Mr SPEAKER: I should be obliged if members would recall the way in which motions are alternatively put in the House. The question “That the motion be agreed to" is the most common motion in the House. The question I pose to the House is that the motion be agreed to. JOHN BANKS (Whangarei): I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek your advice. You said a moment ago in your ruling, which I accept, that it is a free vote and there are no Whips on either side of the House. I should have thought that on a conscience issue of importance every member would have an opportunity to speak. Mr SPEAKER: Order! Before the member goes any further, and because I do not want to remove his opportunity of voting, could he tell me what remedy he seeks that does not require a reversal of my ruling? JOHN BANKS: Are you saying that some members of the House who have not spoken at all will not be given an opportunity to speak? Mr SPEAKER: I am not saying that. The member is requesting a reversal of my ruling. My ruling is that the motion be now put. DON McKINNON (Rodney): I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I refer you to Standing Order 190, which states tha any member moving the closure must use the w " That the question be now put”. I was not in the House at the time but I am informed by my colleagues that the words used by the member for Yaldhurst were “That the motion be now put”. That has been ruled out of order many times before and I suggest that in those circumstances the question that was put by the member for Yaldhurst cannot be accepted. Mr SPEAKER: I take the point that the member has made, but the fact that the words " question” and “motion" are used alternatively in the House would dispose me not to rule the motion out on those grounds. If members can draw my attention to a precedent in Speakers' Rulings or a precedent in the rulings of the House of which I am not aware, I shall be quite happy to be guided by it, but I know of no precedent. NORMAN JONES (Invercargill): In an all-night debate I was asked to move the closure and I moved it in the same words as those used by the member for Yaldhurst. It was not accepted because I did not use the correct words and ask that the question by now put. The closure motion was not taken until another time. I remember being ruled out on it myself by Speaker Harrison, and that is why I raise my point of order. JACK LUXTON (Matamata): I have sat in the chair many times, and I have always required that Standing Order 190 be adhered to - that is, that the form of the closure motion is “That the question be now put”. Speaker's ruling 45/5, which was given by Mr Speaker Macfarlane in 1958 states: “A member when rising to move ‘That the question be now put' cannot then give reasons for doing so.” It has always been the practice that a member must move the motion in its correct form - that is, “That the question be now put". Mr SPEAKER: I am persuaded by the arguments advanced, because to rule otherwise would be to rule against the strict interpretation of the Standing Orders. I am disposed to agree with the members who have raised the point of order. Hon. TONY FRIEDLANDER (New Plymouth): I appreciate the efforts that several of my colleagues have gone to give me the opportunity to speak in the debate. I am also looking forward to the Prime Minister's contribution, because he, too, rose to take the call. It is important that, as the House sets the rules it follows, society must also set and maintain the standards by which it operates. Parliament's task is to help society to set those standards and to ensure that society operates by them. In doing so members must provide the leadership that is required and must carry the responsibility for making those decisions. That is the right and proper thing to do. As we approach that task there has been ample evidence over the years to show that the laws we have set in Parliament are based upon the great moral laws that have come down to our civilisation over thousands of years. Those laws were originally set to ensure the survival of tribes and civilisations. There is ample evidence to show that those laws are as valid today as they have ever been. When members agree to allow those laws to be undermined, compromised, or diminished that action not only holds the law up to ridicule but damages the fabric of society, and so weakens society. In saying that I do not suggest in any way that laws are not broken. Laws are broken, and that is an unfortunate fact of life. However, that does not mean that the laws themselves are wrong. In fact, it is no argument for society to lower its standards and to do away with its laws because people break them. Logic tells us that we must still strive to set those standards that we believe are right and proper. Society cannot allow general lawlessness to take place because there are people in the community who would try to break laws as often as they like. We cannot condone activities such as drug abuse, offensive language, prostitution, self-mutilation, suicide, and other acts of self-denigration that damage or destroy our society or individuals. Society and the House move against so-called victimless crimes and against acts that denigrate people, not only for the protection of the individuals themselves, but for society's own well-being. If we as parliamentarians shy from taking the stand that is necessary to establish a standard of law or acceptable behaviour, when does it become impossible for us to set standards at all? When do we abdicate our responsibilities and say that because people break the law we can no longer set standards of acceptable behaviour? Finally, members of Parliament have to provide the leadership and direction that society is crying out for. If we do not, when will we face the demands from sections of the community to legalise, for example, incest between consenting adults, prostitution, euthanasia, and drug abuse? Unless at some stage we draw a line and say we are not prepared to lower our standards beyond that they will gradually be chipped away and before long there will be no standards, or Parliament will no longer set them. When the matter was debated last week I listened carefully to the Minister of Education. I was interested in the arguments he presented to the House. If I can encapsulate his arguments fairly, I believe he presented the case for all members of the House to show Christian love to homosexuals, and therefore to pass the law. On first appearances I found his argument to be compelling. I believe that the teachings of most of us call upon Christian love to be shown to all members of society. At times we are sorely strained and our patience is tried when we seek to do so, but that is what we are called upon to do, and no one would argue against that sentiment. However, after considering his arguments I believe that the same argument in our Christian teachings asks us to show a similar love to the thugs and criminals in our society; but that does not mean that we should legalise physical assault or dishonesty. It simply means that we should seek to rehabilitate and assist the offender. It does not mean that we should seek to approve and condone those actions. Yet members are being asked not only to show Christian love to homosexuals but to condone, accept, and approve their behaviour. We should not and cannot do that if we are to maintain a reasonable standard in our society. By taking that stance it must be apparent that I intend to vote against the Bill. At no stage have I suggested that our present laws are perfect-they are not; but I have listened carefully to members in the House and to people on radio to hear if anyone could bring any evidence to suggest that homosexuals have been harassed because of the present law. Although some speakers have implied that there has been harassment, no evidence has been provided to show that that is so. I have listened for the evidence to suggest that the information I have gathered is wrong. Although the existing laws are not perfect, they have achieved a considerable amount for society by discouraging the promotion of homosexual behaviour. They have protected society from those who would seek to promote homosexual behaviour as a right, proper, and acceptable way of life. I do not believe that it is. The present laws have also tended to suppress any form of homosexual soliciting, although one must acknowledge that some soliciting does occur. They have also helped to suppress and prevent public displays of homosexual activity in the community in a manner that most of us would find unacceptable. That has provided a major advantage to society and should not be lightly done away with. I repeat that in adopting my approach I do not lack concern or compassion for homosexual people. However, I believe the answer does not and should not lie in the whole of society being called on to weaken or lower the standards it sets for itself. I briefly draw the attention of the House to the amendments to the Human Rights Commission Act proposed by the legislation as they seek to legislate against any form of discrimination on the unds of homosexuality. That means that anyone seeking to appoint a scoutmaster, a Bible class teacher, a boarding school headmaster, and so on, could not discriminate and say “We do not find you acceptable because you are a homosexual.” FRAN WILDE: The member's wrong. Hon. TONY FRIEDLANDER: I am not wrong. (Interruption). It means that there would be no ability not to employ a person solely on the grounds of homosexuality. I believe that is an unacceptable position for us to place society in. The other point is that the House is strongly divided on the issue, yet if that aspect of the law is passed we are asking the public to ensure that despite the strong words that have been spoken here people will not be able to express their point of view as we have sought to express ours in the House. We are being illogical if we believe that by simply passing the legislation, as we are asked to do, people will put their prejudices and concerns behind them and will not break that law. Because many people are strongly opposed to what is being proposed, it would be ridiculous for us to pass a law that in no way, shape, or form would enable them to express their abhorrence of concern about homosexual activities in our community as they affect individuals. Members have applied themselves to the problem and are obviously divided on the matter. With other members, I intend to oppose the Bill. If we do not do so, at some stage we will regret the day that we allowed our standards to lower further and further. ANNETTE KING (Horowhenua): I move, That the question be now put. The House divided. Ayes 56 Anderton; Austin, M. E.; Austin, W. R.; Bassett; Batchelor, Boorman; Burke; Butcher, Caygill; Clark; Colman; Cooper; Cullen; de Cleene; Dillon; Dunne; Elder, Fraser, Gair, Gerard; Gerbic; Goff; Graham; Gray; Gregory; Hercus; Hunt; Jeffries; Keall; Kidd; King; Lange; Luxton; McKinnon; McLay; Marshall, C. R.; Maxwell, R. K.; Moore; Neilson; Northey; O'Flynn; Palmer; Prebble; Rodger, Scott; Shields; Sutton, J. R.; Tapsell; Terris; Tizard; Townshend; Wetere; Woollaston; Young, V. S. Tellers: Matthewson; Wilde. Noes 20 Angus; Austin, H. N.; Banks; Birch; Braybrooke; East; Friedlander, Knapp; McClay; McTigue; Mallard; Morrison; Peters; Smith; Talbot; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Wellington; Young, T. J. Tellers: Jones; Lee. Majority for: 36 Motion agreed to. The House divided on the question, That the amendment be agreed to. Ayes 26 Angus; Austin, H. N.; Austin, W. R.; Banks; Birch; Cooper; Friedlander, Gray; Jones; Kidd; Luxton; McClay; McLay; McTigue; Marahall , D. W. A.; Morrison; Peters; Smith; Storey; Talbot; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Townshend; Wellington; Young, T. J. Tellers: Braybrooke; Lee. Noes 53 Anderton; Austin, M. E.; Bassett; Batchelor; Boorman; Burdon; Burke; Butcher, Caygill; Clark; Coleman; Cullen; de Cleene; Dillon; Dunne; East; Elder, Fraser, Gair; Gerard; Gerbic; Goff; Graham; Gregory; Hercus; Hunt; Jeffries; Keall; King; Knapp; Lange; McKinnon; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Maxwell, R. K.; Moore; Neilson; Northey; O'Flynn; Palmer; Prebble; Rodger, Scott; Shields; Sutton, J. R.; Tapsell; Terris; Tizard; Wetere; Woollaston; Young, V. S. Tellers: Mallard; Wilde. Majority against: 27 Amendment negatived. The House divided on the question, That this Bill be now read a second time. Ayes 47 Anderton; Austin, M. E.; Bassett; Batchelor; Boorman; Burdon; Burke; Butcher; Caygill; Clark; Cullen; de Cleene; Dillon; Dunne; Elder, Fraser; Gair; Gerbic; Goff; Graham; Gregory; Hercus; Hunt; Jeffries; Keall; King; Lange; McKinnon; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Maxwell, R. K.; Moore; Neilson; Northey; O'Flynn; Palmer; Prebble; Rodger, Scott; Shields; Sutton, J. R.; Tizard; Wetere; Woollaston; Young, V. S. Tellers: Mallard; Wilde. Noes 32 Angus; Austin, H. N.; Austin, W. R.; Banks; Birch; Colman; Cooper, East; Friedlander; Gerard; Gray; Jones; Kidd; Knapp; Luxton; McClay; McLay; McTigue; Marshall, D. W. A.; Morrison; Peters; Smith; Storey; Talbot; Tapsell; Terris; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Townshend; Wellington; Young, T. J. Tellers: Braybrooke; Lee. Majority for: 15 Bill read a second time.

IRN: 3858
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_homosexual_law_reform_bill_second_reading_continued_6_november_1985.html
TITLE: Homosexual Law Reform Bill - second reading continued (6 November 1985)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 6 November 1985
YEAR: 1985
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 6 November 1985, New Zealand Parliament. Debate resumed from 23 October 1985. DEREK ANGUS (Wallace): Today there will be many New Zealanders who will be disappointed about the cavalier fashion in which the largest petition ever to be presented to Parliament was reported back to the House by the member for Hamilton West. The people will not forget that. This is the Government that was elected to discuss and to take note of the people's views. I suggest that the people have spoken. Before the debate was interrupted I had spoken about the danger of homosexual activities on the health of our people. If the Bill is passed there will be a large increase in the number of people affected and hospitalised with, in many instances, quite unfortunate results. Those facts cannot be denied. The perilous combination of a disease-ridden population and increasing promiscuity led to the recent worldwide epidemic that has brought those facts to public attention. AIDS burst into prominence in 1981, and soon had more fatalities than Legionnaires disease and toxic shock syndrome combined. Fewer than 14 percent of AIDS victims around the world have survived more than 3 years, and no victim is known to have fully recovered. Responsibility for sexual practice is shuffled to one side by the claims that homosexuals are born that way or merely discover and affirm their natural tendency, and that they cannot change their nature. On that point the factual evidence is increasingly clear and well documented. Although there were early studies that suggested a biological reason for homosexuality, nearly all modern analysts support the conclusion that homosexuals are not born that way; they learn to be that way. A professor at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine recently said: “Homosexuality - the choice of a partner of the same sex for orgiastic satisfaction-is not innate. There is no connection between sexual instinct and the choice of sexual object. Such an object choice is learnt, acquired behaviour. There is no inevitable, genetically born propensity towards the choice of a partner of either the same or the opposite sex. Homosexuals do not simply discover an alternative, perfectly normal form of sexual behaviour somehow natural to them. They acquire it through a variety of decisions, a variety of influences, and a choice and orientation towards a behaviour and later a pattern of behaviour that is disordered and dangerous.” Dr Armand Nicholai of Harvard University recently said: “I have treated hundreds of homosexuals. None of them deep down thought he was normal. Simulating eating is not eating; simulating being female is not being female; simulating sex is not sex.” Another frequent comment is, “I am for more rights, not fewer.” Giving special rights to homosexuals takes away the rights of others, and, once a homosexual makes an accusation, can even make those others guilty until proved innocent. That shift of the burden of proof is made as a typical privilege given to classes protected by homosexual rights laws. Another common saying is that we should show compassion. I certainly do. The homosexual is without doubt a proper subject for the exercise of compassion, but compassion is not shown by pretending that homosexual behaviour is normal or healthy, any more than by pretending that an alcoholic should celebrate his alcoholism. Compassion for the homosexual comes from treating him as a responsible moral being who can and must change his behaviour. Compassion must also be shown to the innocent victims of homosexuals, such as those who have been medically or psychologically damaged by them. To give homosexuals special treatment or to accept their life-style as healthy is compassionate neither to homosexuals nor to society at large. Most leading psychologists now agree that homosexuality is not innate and does not have any genetic connection. Dr Charles Socrates, author of papers most frequently used by medical scholars on the subject, has pointed out in a leading work on homosexuality that homosexuality is learnt, acquired behaviour. Other studies have demonstrated that homosexuality has nothing to do with hormones or hormonal imbalance. Another saying is that homosexuals cannot change. I have spoken to two people in the House in the past fortnight. I admire them for coming forward to members within the House who wanted to discuss with them their decision to leave the group. Recent evidence has shown that the homosexual can be changed, and they proved that to me. Another saying is that a person should be able to do what he wants to do in the privacy of his bedroom. That is simply not true, and were it to be codified society could not protect itself from incest, child abuse, bigamy, prostitution, and a host of other private acts that have more severe social consequences. Another saying is, “I am against discrimination in any form." Everyone is against discrimination. The word has a connotation of prejudice and bigotry. However, there is a difference between permitting discrimination on an irrational basis and permitting employers, landlords, or others to exercise a sound discretion based on a legitimate factor. Refusing to pass laws giving special privileges to homosexuals is not discrimination. In fact, it would be discriminatory to do so. Important decisions in life such as the decision about who may associate with one's children must naturally turn on considerations of moral character. Moreover, deep-seated religious convictions that homosexuality is wrong ought to be respected. Hon. RUSSELL MARSHALL (Minister of Education): I say at the outset that I support the Bill in its entirety as it was introduced, and I congratulate the member for Wellington Central on at last enabling the House to have the opportunity to discuss these matters. I have personally supported the proposal for reform ever since I have been in the House, and I shall go into the reasons for that shortly. I shall begin my speech with a brief recapitulation of the history of this matter in my time since 1972. When the Labour Government took office at the end of 1972 there were high hopes that some homosexual law reform legislation would be introduced. Several people were approached and names were canvassed, but unfortunately our collective caution prevailed, and before we had time finally to resolve the matter, whereby somebody in the Government ranks would introduce the Bill, the member for Waitotara, as he is now, introduced the 1974 legislation. I commend the member for his courage at that time. I know something of the travails he went through. I suspect that it is a little easier for people in metropolitan communities, although I doubt that the member for Wellington Central would agree with me; but I know that the West Coast of the North Island would not be the most popular place for a private member's Bill such as this to be introduced. However, although it was a cautious Bill the House did not have sufficient courage to pass it and it was declined. Although there were various discussions in the intervening years about the possibility of reintroducing legislation, it did not happen until the present Bill appeared. I was one of those who was involved in discussions on a number of occasions with members of the Homosexual Law Reform Society about the form of legislation that could be introduced, and who might introduce it. For example, some members will remember that when the Labour Party was in Opposition the Hon. Warren Freer was close to introducing a Bill. During those discussions it became clear that the proposal to introduce a Bill with the age of consent at 18 years did not have the support of the gay community, and that if a Bill were to be introduced the job should be done properly and the age of consent for homosexuality should be the same as for heterosexuality. I was one of those who took some time to work my way through to that view, and I shall return to my reasons for that later. I am now strongly convinced that we ought to have the same legislation across the board. I am also strongly persuaded that sexual determination is made long before anyone reaches the age of 16 years. People will not be turned into homosexuals at the age of 18 years, 17 years, 16 years, or even some years before that. I pay tribute to the efforts Marilyn Waring made during some of those years, when she was a member of the previous Government, to try to get legislation through. I remember that one of the people with whom we had discussions from time to time was the present Leader of the Opposition, who was then Attorney-General and Minister of Justice. He was encouraging to us about the manner in which we might introduce the legislation. I have been surprised and very sorry to hear the attitudes now expressed by him in the House, which are very different from the attitudes he expressed during the discussions that several of us took part in over the years. The first set of issues to which I want to give my attention arise from my position as Minister of Education. Several questions have been raised. Some have been genuinely responsible, but there has been a good deal of grossly irresponsible scaremongering. People have asked questions about the impact on schools and children if the legislation is passed. I want to answer some of those questions to the best of my ability and with the briefing I have received from my staff. The first set of questions arise from the fact that a health education syllabus has been introduced with a component that is sometimes called sex education, but is really puberty information. It also gives teachers the right to answer questions openly and honestly as they arise. There have been suggestions that, now that the syllabus has been approved and some schools are giving it a trial, homosexual teachers might seek to influence the attitudes and behaviour of students through the teaching programmes based on the revised health education syllabus, especially in discussing aspects of sex education or family life. I assure members that the contents of the programme of the health education syllabus for junior, middle, and senior primary classes do not support that claim. The suggested programme for health education is clearly spelt out at every level, and it does not include any topics that would open the way for discussion of sexual preferences. Up to standard 4 we have allowed teachers to answer questions as they arise, but not to go on at any great length. At forms I and II we are talking about coping with bodily pubertal change - nothing to do with relationships whatsoever. There is no room in the new syllabus material now prescribed for promotion of either heterosexual or homosexual attitudes or points of view. Homosexuality could arise as a topic for discussion, but all the evidence is that sexuality is determined in the earliest years of a child's life. In all aspects of the health syllabus teachers are expected to be sensitive to the parents' views and to cultural and community values. Guidelines to this effect have been drafted, and will form part of the resource materials to remind teachers that their personal viewpoints should not be promoted either through formal programmes for sex education or in answering students' questions. I have had a further briefing on this matter from officers of the curriculum development unit of the Department of Education in response to allegations made by the Concerned Parents Association and others. In replying to my queries they pointed out that the Concerned Parents Association made several references to difficulties that parents, school authorities, and employing bodies might have in taking disciplinary action against individual teachers. I am advised that the passage of the Bill would make no difference when a justifiable complaint is made about either the conduct of a teacher or a teacher's advocacy of particular values or life-styles. Parents will still have the right to complain about the actions of teachers whether the orientation is heterosexual or homosexual, and they will be able to complain to the principal of a school or to the employing authorities. The passing of the Bill will make no difference to the present position - that disciplinary proceedings cannot be taken against a teacher solely on account of his or her sexual orientation or private life-style. The memorandum goes on to point out that the Concerned Parents Association sought to raise parents' fears that homosexuality could be presented to students as “normal”, and it urged parents to require schools to uphold heterosexuality as normal and natural. Given the likely proportion of homosexuals in the community, I am informed that there could be several students in a class for whom at least one close family member will be homosexual. I am responding to remarks made in a paper, Mr Deputy Speaker, and I want to give the lie to some of the charges that have been made, in case you are uncertain about the outside comment on the legislation. I am making the point that I have been advised that some sensitivity has to be given to the number of homosexuals in the community. The chances are that at least one child in a class will know somebody, even be related to somebody, who is a homosexual. For those students the suggestion that homosexuality should be labelled as deviant behaviour is clearly an insensitive response. Students wishing to discuss their own emerging sexuality with a counsellor will also feel inhibited in doing so if such labels are rigidly applied. As the law stands at present, school counsellors experience difficulty in being able to assist those students - a difficulty not dependent on the counsellor's own sexuality. This difficulty would be removed by the passage of the Bill as it stands, as it would remove the threat of criminal proceedings in regard to a student's possible future life-style. The Concerned Parents Association also suggested that there was a possibility that children would have the act of sodomy explained in class. The excessive use of that term and the apparent view that homosexuality is principally, even exclusively, to do with sodomy reflects a very narrow view of homosexual conduct. In view of the widespread use of that word it would not be surprising if children were curious about the term. Teachers in primary schools other than those designated to use the revised syllabus would not, at present, be entitled to answer any questions relating to the term. Even in designated schools it is hard to envisage a situation in which the term would arise other than in response to questions. Neither with the health education syllabus in place nor with the passage of the legislation is it likely that there will be demonstrations or comprehensive discussions about acts of homosexuality, any more than under the new terms of the health education syllabus relating to heterosexuality. One other matter of concern raised by the proprietors of integrated schools was that teachers could promote or affirm the morality or acceptability of homosexual activities or practices, and that teachers, and pupils over 16 years of age, might be able to engage in homosexual activity on school premises. I took advice on those matters also, and have been informed by the officers of the Department of Education that the promotion of the acceptability of homosexuality is outside the curricula and syllabuses prescribed by the 1964 Education Act, and is contrary to the special character of Catholic integrated schools. Teachers would leave themselves open to disciplinary proceedings under the Act if they engaged in such promotion. If teachers were discovered on school premises engaged in sexual activity, whether heterosexual or homosexual, they could be charged with a disciplinary offence of conduct unbecoming to a teacher under section 158 of the Education Act. Pupils over the age of 16 who engaged in sexual activity, either heterosexual or homosexual, could be suspended under section 130 of the Education Act. The controlling authority has the ultimate say as to whether the suspension is lifted or the pupil is expelled. I am satisfied, both personally and as Minister of Education, that the fears - and I acknowledge the genuineness with which some of those fears have been expressed-raised about the impact of the Bill and the coincidence of the health education syllabus are entirely unfounded. I now want to refer to the major constituency that has opposed the Bill. As many members are aware, before I was elected to the House in 1972 I served for some years in the Methodist ministry. I must say that I have had some difficulty in accepting some of the people who have claimed to speak for the Christian faith and for the Christian community over recent weeks. I hope that members on both sides of the argument will at least accept that there are sharply divergent views within the Christian community about the legislation - and I shall go into some of the reasons later. The church to which I belong, and joined as long ago as 1960 - 25 years ago-decided in the aftermath of the Wolfenden report in Britain that it would, as a matter of Christian conviction, support homosexual law reform. That view was shared at the same time by the Presbyterian Church, although I am bound to say that some of its members seem to have resiled from that somewhat in the past few days. Several other Christian groups went to the select committee, and some of them spoke officially on behalf of their churches. We all have miles of paper on this matter, but amongst the papers that came in were statements from the Anglican provincial and social affairs committee, the Methodist Church, the joint Methodist-Presbyterian public questions committee, the public questions committee of the Religious Society of Friends, and the National Council of Churches general meeting. One of the things that concerns me about the debate and about the criticism of the Bill is the preoccupation with sexual activity of a rather narrow kind, and the way that it, rather than relationships, has been described. Surely it ought to be a matter of our most fundamental concern to make people whole, to liberate people, and to help to set people free--all of which are phrases that most of the churches use from time to time. We ought to be concerned about the acceptance of people for what they are. I want to tell honourable members who might be concerned that in voting for the Bill they are acting contrary to the Christian gospel, contrary to the scriptures, and contrary to the wishes of the church, that is not true. There is a substantial body of theological opinion within the Christian community that thinks we ought to take our major lead from the gospels, that we ought to recognise what the attitudes of Leviticus were, and recognise them for what they are. WINSTON PETERS: Is that the gospel according to Marshall? Hon. RUSSELL MARSHALL: No, I am concerned about the Christian gospel. I am not concerned about the Book of Leviticus. I quote two or three points that have been made to us by the churches on this matter: “As Christians we are on more reliable ground when we go back to the teachings of Jesus. In terms of proclaiming the Kingdom of God and identifying the obstacles to membership of the Kingdom, Jesus had vastly more to say about the dangers of wealth than the dangers of sexuality, and while he comments frequently on the character of loving relationships he offers no word on personal sexual orientation.” Again: “God places a unique value on each of us, and that includes homosexuals. When heterosexuals learn to value homosexuals both as persons and for the contribution they make to our communities, those devaluing myths and stereotypes which have no place in Christian witness will disintegrate.” If we are so utterly convinced of the remarkable rightness of our own point of view we are bound to be led to judgmental attitudes that make real understanding and sympathy for other people impossible. If we are so convinced of our own moral rectitude that we cannot see other people as human beings, but only their defection from our own standards, whatever they may be, I suggest that we have become very sorry specimens. Contrary to some of the impressions that are given, homosexual people are no more promiscuous than heterosexual people. Contrary to some of the things that are said, some of the most sensitive, gentle, caring people in our community are amongst the homosexuals. Contrary to what some people opposing the Bill would have us believe, all members of the House, whether they are aware of it or not, know people who are homosexual. Many people, wittingly or unwittingly, are related to them, and every time we are so rigidly judgmental in terms of our criticism of that community we are saying things about people who are closer to us than we realise, even within these buildings. It strikes me as utterly inconsistent with the spirit of the Christian gospel that we should try to put people within our own strait-jacket, and I cannot begin to comprehend those people who, in the name of the Christian gospel above all, would seek to cast these people to one side. There is nothing of Christ's spirit in that attitude. There is not one word in the Christian gospel that justifies it. I must say that I have been pained, hurt, and angry at the arrogance with which some people have sought to hijack the scriptures to their own use, purporting, by taking texts out of context, to be speaking for God himself. I am sure that the implications of the Christian gospel of the loving God, with which the member for Hauraki was brought up, as I was, are that we ought to accept people as they are; that we ought to encourage them to develop their own full personalities as human beings; and that we ought to accept that we should not try to change people to our standards and practices when they are adult and when those characteristics were formed in early childhood. I very much hope that we pass the Bill in this form. Finally, I urge those members who are nervous about the age provision to accept that heterosexual preference and homosexual preference are both determined long before the age of 16. There is no valid argument that says we should pass it half-pie. It should be left at 16. I support the Bill. ROGER MAXWELL (Taranaki): I agree with some of the statements made by the Minister of Education, particularly his statement that it is a controversial matter. It is a matter of widespread interest and there has been a good deal of debate. Some extreme views have been expressed on both sides of the argument. Before speaking about the substance of the Bill, I shall reflect on the submissions made to the committee. I remind the House of the responsibility of the committee that was charged with hearing those submissions. Its responsibility was to convey a balanced view of the evidence put forward. I shall have to put to rights some of the impressions given by the member for Hamilton West in his reporting back to the House. I remind members once again of the depth of evidence that came forward. There were 1,096 submissions, 903 of which were written; 111 oral submissions were heard, but 85 oral submissions were not although requests were made for them to be heard. There were 1,138 supporting letters. Of those, 379 were for the Bill but 759 were against it. The statistics are huge and there was a great deal of evidence to be absorbed. People were genuine in their submissions. I was embarrassed by the way some of the Government members on the committee dealt with members of the public who came forward in good faith to put their points of view. There was much intolerance, and I apologise to some of those people. Unfortunately, the same members who had illustrated that intolerance in the committee initiated the cut-off of the submissions put before the committee. I refer to the submissions of 85 people who had requested to be heard orally but were not given the opportunity. The initiator of the Bill, the member for Wellington Central, produced several telegrams indicating that people who were in favour of the Bill were prepared to forgo that opportunity; she did not produce the telegrams from people who indicated their desire to be heard on this important public issue. That was undemocratic. The chopping of the hearings while they were incomplete constitutes grounds for not supporting the Bill at this stage. People who genuinely wanted to put forward their points of view were not given an opportunity to do so. I produce the evidence of one individual who dearly wished to have the opportunity to put forward that evidence but was not able to. It related to a health worker's point of view - a point of view expressed by my colleague the member for Waikato - and to the threat perceived by many people, certainly many hospital workers, of the likelihood of an AIDS epidemic, and the account that should be taken of that when considering the passage of, or voting against, the Bill. That evidence and the evidence of my colleague was denigrated at the time by a person supporting the Bill, but there has since been further supporting evidence from several senior health officials on hospital boards. I am sure that evidence would have come forward if that individual had had the opportunity to express his point of view to the committee, which could have duly reported it to the House. I shall quote from his submission, and want the supporters of the Bill to deny its accuracy if they can: “The Wolfenden report, which was the origin of the gay liberation, stated in paragraph 52: ‘We do not think that it is proper for the law to concern itself with what a man does in private unless it can be shown to do so is contrary to the public good, that the law ought to intervene in its function as a guardian of the public good.'” The point is made that had an AIDS epidemic, for example, been concerning health authorities at the time, the Wolfenden report might well have produced a different final report. In the reporting back from the committee the point was made and the impression given - and I was in the House and heard it - that the churches were in favour of the Bill, but for every church group that came before the committee there was an opposing faction within the church group that opposed the Bill. Once again members can see the division. It is not correct for the chairman of the committee to mislead the members of the House in his report by saying that churches support the Bill. The evidence was detailed and came from a wide spectrum. The submissions illustrated much compassion and acceptance of the homosexual orientation. I accept the evidence that came forward for the work by Kinsey. That was one of the strong submissions that affected my view of whether or not to support the proposition in the Bill. I believe that the supporters of the Bill are working from a flawed proposition. The evidence given on the Kinsey work was aptly described by one of the supporters brought in from overseas especially to encourage support for the measure. That individual explained that there was a spectrum of heterosexual and homosexual orientation within individuals in a community. That could be drawn as a bell-shaped graph. If a line is drawn down the centre dissecting the bell, there would be 50 percent of people with a homosexual orientation of varying degrees on one side, and on the other side a heterosexual orientation. On both sides there would be extremes of people who might not be able to have much control over their orientation. The evidence went on to show that, while it affected both females and males, a concern expressed by many in other evidence was that male members of the community could well be more easily diverted than females from their orientation by their peer groups and the ruling social environment and attitudes. That means that if the Bill is passed and homosexual activity is given some kind of public approval, certainly more than at present, according to Kinsey a large group of people would be likely to be influenced by homosexual activity. I believe that increased activity in what could be described as a bisexual group would have an adverse effect on adolescent youths, the most vulnerable group in our community. That is one of the central points I must consider before deciding whether to support the Bill. The other important matter is whether society will condone the formal expression of individual sexuality. Many arguments have been put forward that the Bill should allow people to express individual sexuality. The record shows that society in the past has not allowed that, and that a bias has often been shown. I accept that there has been some persecution, but I suggest that that is not so now. Society has shown a better understanding of people's sexual orientation, and there will be a much better understanding overall as a result of the submissions received and of the present debate. The present legislation reinforces society's attitude by imposing quite severe legal penalties. Under sections 140 and 142 of the Crimes Act, a maximum penalty of 5 years' imprisonment is set down for any male of any age convicted of an indecent assault on another male of any age, and the consent of the other person is no defence of the crime. In the case of consenting adults I accept that that might be looked upon as a severe penalty, but during the Committee stage there might be an opportunity to consider reducing it. I cannot support a complete abolition. The existing law provides for a penalty of up to 10 years' imprisonment in some circumstances, and I understand that such penalties have been extended in the present Bill. That is a positive move that has come out of the changes. No evidence was presented to the committee that the penalties in the present law are being vigorously enforced, and people would presume that to be the case if there were a need to change the law. I have no knowledge of any person being persecuted by the law. On that basis, what is the justification for seeking the change? The important provisions in the Bill, which should be spelt out but have not been yet, are central to my conclusion that I cannot support the Bill. Clause 5 changes the circumstances under which an offence occurs. The explanatory note states: “... the new section 142 is limited to consensual anal intercourse, and then only where it is committed upon a person who is under 16 years of age or is severely subnormal. As with the new indecency provisions, a distinction is drawn between the case where the person upon whom the act of anal intercourse is committed is under 12 years of age, and the case where that person is between 12 years and 16 years of age. In the former case, the maximum penalty is imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years, and consent is no defence." It goes on to say - and this is very important, given Kinsey's work, which I have accepted - that: “Where the person upon whom the act of anal intercourse is committed is between 12 years and 16 years of age, the maximum penalty is imprisonment for a term of 7 years. It is a defence if the defendant proves that the other person consented (unless the prosecution can show that the consent was improperly obtained), and that he is younger than that person. It is also a defence if the defendant proves that the other person consented (subject to the same qualification as above), that he himself is under the age of 21 years of age, and that he believed on reasonable grounds that the other person was of or over the age of 16 years." That is probably one of the most important points on which members have to make a judgment, and I believe that these provisions build in some protection within the law for those charged. Indeed, it places the onus of proof that anal intercourse took place without consent on the victim, and that is very important. If the victim is older or if it is believed that consent was given, the practical application of the law creates some real problems. Unfortunately, the number of assaults has increased, and the proposed legislation provides a ready-made defence for the perpetrators of those assaults. The proposed legislation conflicts with the provisions of the Rape Law Reform Bill, which proposes that the stress faced by victims should be minimised. This legislation increases the stress on the victim and therefore would seem to contradict what is being proposed in other areas. The laws of the land by their very nature restrict people's freedoms, and freedom is one of the reasons given for this Bill. The fact that freedoms are curtailed is the price society faces for an orderly society in which minority groups are often disadvantaged. We are talking about society's morality, and, although I accept that it is very difficult for society to regulate morality, we have taken that opportunity in other laws and I am not convinced that we should not do it this time. If we decriminalise sexual intercourse between homosexuals we will be condoning it in law and I believe that would be a retrograde step. The Bill does not set out to legislate against the affection that exists between homosexuals because of their orientation. I stress that it makes anal intercourse between consenting adults legal and I believe that many members of our community are not prepared to accept that provision. One of the unfortunate aspects that was brought out by the submissions was that not much help has been available for those who have some form of homosexual orientation, and, indeed, evidence was given that many groups in our society will put a great deal more effort into that. As has already been pointed out, there is evidence that people can be helped-steered in a different direction, if one likes to put it like that. Given that that is so, the reason for implementing the legislation is lessened. I bring to the attention of the House the view of a former gay activist, Noel Mosen, who maintains that homosexuality is a learnt habit that can be reversed. I believe that as time passes there will be increasing evidence that that is so, and I applaud those who have said that they will continue to put more effort into counselling. That has not been given sufficient attention in the past. I shall go on to Part II and say that I cannot support the restrictive nature of that provision. It creates problems for the armed forces, for institutions such as boarding schools, and for landlords. I believe it should be the individual's right to choose his tenants. I do not believe that denying the rights of one group and giving dubious benefits to others is sufficient reason to change the law. I do not believe that trying to legislate people's attitudes will work, and if there has been persecution of homosexuals in the past that, unfortunately, might well continue. The Bill and the discussion and debate that followed its introduction will help the understanding of the problem in the community. In rejecting the Bill we are not abandoning the 5 percent to 10 percent of people who have a strong homosexual orientation. It is much better that we understand the problem. It has been an educational exercise for me, but I have not been convinced that I should support the Bill. Numerous amendments have been put forward, but they do not change my view. I do not believe that the Bill was handled in the way it should have been in the select committee. I have some sympathy with the suggestion put forward that a commission should be a forerunner to this kind of legislation. A great deal of sympathy has been expressed for people with a strong homosexual orientation, but I believe that there is still insufficient evidence to allow me to support the Bill, and I shall vote against it. DENIS MARSHALL (Rangitikei): The issue of homosexual law reform is certainly one of the most controversial debated by the public in New Zealand for many years. Unfortunately, much of the debate in the public arena has been somewhat uninformed, but over the three successive evenings the House has debated the issue there have been some excellent speeches by members, and they have expressed many and varied points of view. Some of the more technical information such as that provided by my colleague the member for Waikato has been relevant, particularly in today's society when the issue of AIDS is a new one and is of real concern to all. Six months ago I replied to many of those who wrote to me on this issue in the following manner: " I am totally opposed to the Bill in its present form, which in effect legalises homosexual activity between consenting males over the age of 16 years. However, because of the fact that society does not enforce the present law, which imposes a term of imprisonment for up to 5 years for homosexuals, I believe there is a case of reviewing the law and decriminalising homosexual relations between consenting males at the age of 20." I consulted my constituents on that matter. " I do not believe in fact that we should have laws that are not enforced, and this change could put the law on a similar basis to that in England when it was amended some 18 years ago. Nevertheless, I believe it is absolutely essential that adolescent males must be protected and that the change and the increased penalty in the proposed legislation to 7 years' imprisonment for indecent assault in the proposed law is an example of such protection. In the Bill which is before the House the age limit for decriminalisation is unacceptably low and the clauses amending the Human Rights Commission Act is unacceptable also in my view. I will be recording my vote against the second reading of the Bill.” I consulted my constituents widely, and without a doubt the majority opposed the Bill on the grounds of their disapproval of homosexuality. However, even the strongest opponents of the reform do not want the position whereby consenting males could be convicted as criminals for homosexual acts and face a term of imprisonment of up to 5 years. That is the difficulty in which most members of society find themselves: they disapprove of homosexuality, and, of course, they should always remain free to do that. However, they do accept that the criminality accorded to homosexuals today is inappropriate. Even some of those church groups that have taken a strong stand on the issue, such as the Salvation Army, have said that imprisonment is inappropriate. I understand that the Presbyterian Church has also expressed that view during the past few days. There has been much speculation about the effect on society of any possible reform in the present law: There have been descriptions of societies centred on gay bathhouses, as in San Francisco, and references to the law as it stands in the United Kingdom. Frankly, I am attracted to the degree of reform that has existed in the United Kingdom for the past 18 years. Having spent some time in the United Kingdom 20 years ago and again 2 years ago I could not identify any particular moral deterioration in that society, which, apart from our neighbour across the Tasman, is the society with which we most closely relate. After studying the Wolfenden report the British Parliament decriminalised homosexual acts between consenting adults from the age of 21. In today's society we could, perhaps, support decriminalisation from the age of 20. However, the new disease of AIDS, which was not apparent 20 years ago, undoubtedly clouds the issue. I believe we need the medical profession to alleviate strongly the widespread public concern about that disease. Many constituents who contacted me expressed their abhorrence of homosexuality. It certainly does not appeal to me, either, but I must say that some of the most highly respected members of the community came to me and revealed that they are, in fact, homosexuals. I certainly feel for them, because they have undoubtedly lived under tremendous pressure. As a member of the Church of England I want to dwell for a moment on the issue from a Christian point of view. From the many letters I have received expressing different interpretations of the Bible I know that Christians are deeply divided on the issue. The Council of Churches supports reform, while other churches are opposed to reform. However, the prejudice, bigotry, and intolerance expressed by many certainly have no place in my understanding of Christianity. Personally, I agree with the view that the Bible is a standard for moral and ethical behaviour-it is not a legal code. It is a guide to direct us how best we can reflect Christ's life within our own culture and our own experience. I also believe that society wants to express its disapproval, and I do not believe that we should necessarily treat homosexuals as criminals. Most of us would condemn adultery, but few would want to see it lead to arrest and prosecution. One religious forum that expressed its views on the issue was the Inter-Church Council on Public Affairs, which believes that extreme positions on both sides of the debate are not consistent with the gospels or Christian tradition, nor are they helpful to homosexuals or society. The council called for tolerance and understanding among those who hold sincere and deeply felt differences of opinion on the issue. It said that at one extreme are those who seek to promote homosexual behaviour and life-styles as desirable alternatives to marriage and family life, while at the other extreme are those whose disapproval of homosexual behaviour has become distorted into a cruel rejection and disparagement of homosexual persons. Neither of those positions is consistent with Christian tradition now, and the council's view was that they were particularly unhelpful. It felt that it was necessary to look more deeply into the complex issues involved. However, as with most people in New Zealand today, the council stopped short of commenting on the provisions contained in the proposed legislation, because its members were divided on the Bill. The Church of England has also had difficulty in reaching a common view on an acceptable degree of reform. As far back as 1981 the diocesan commission on homosexuality reported to the Dunedin Synod, and that report was generally a cautious document. There was unanimous agreement that homosexual acts in private between consenting adults should not be the subject of police investigation or criminal prosecution, but, once again, the commission could not agree on the exact nature of an acceptable law reform. I shall deal with the section of the Bill that seeks to amend the Human Rights Commission Act. Would any reform of the present law in relation to that Act change people's attitude to one another? I do not believe it would. We have heard many personal stories during the debate relating to the degree of acceptance or non-acceptance of homosexuals. I can think of people who have been ostracised by their families and friends as a result of their homosexual orientation. Will a degree of reform to a particular age change the attitude of such a person's family or friends to his orientation? I think not. I should say that the family or friends of that person who want to ostracise him should have the right to do so. If an employer does not wish to employ a homosexual, we cannot force the issue. On those grounds I cannot support the amendment to the Human Rights Commission Act that is contained in the Bill, because I believe that the ultimate human right is not to associate with a person, or not to employ a person if one has a moral objection to that person's activity or orientation. On those grounds I shall vote against that clause in the Bill. It is unfortunate that the need for homosexual law reform was prompted by such an extreme measure as the Bill. In its present form it has proved to be amongst the most divisive legislation ever introduced into the House. Unfortunately, it was introduced at a time when a new dimension of homosexuality became apparent because of the spread of AIDS and its effect on society. Some members have already given notice that further legislation will be introduced to repeal the Bill if it is passed. I think that is unfortunate, because it indicates that the matter has not been fully understood by the public and Parliament. It prolongs the argument. It could have been most beneficial to have the matter studied by an independent body and I certainly believe that the member for Napier made a reasonable suggestion when he proposed that a royal commission should study homosexuality and bring down a report such as the Wolfenden report that went before the British Parliament. I refer to the new dimension of AIDS that was not apparent when the Wolfenden report was introduced to the British Parliament. Whatever course of action is taken, I should have preferred the House to have such an authoritative document to debate so that the public could refer to it, and members of Parliament could certainly debate it. In those circumstances, although I support a degree of reform and I shall support an amendment to the Bill replacing the age of 16 years with 20 years if that amendment is moved in the Committee stage, I cannot support the second reading of the Bill as it is. At this stage it is far too extreme. NEILL AUSTIN (Bay of Islands): I say at the outset that I oppose the Bill in all its forms and with whatever amendments may come before the House. I cannot find it in my make-up to support any aspect of it. I reached that conclusion the day the Bill was introduced. I appreciated the letters of support I received from within my own electorate and from many areas of New Zealand when the public learnt by way of the newspaper that I opposed the Bill's introduction. It has not taken public comment, private letters to me, or any other form of communication-spoken, written, or whatever - to persuade me that no good will come if the Bill is passed in whatever form. I am my own best friend and also my own worst enemy. I have to look at my image in the mirror every morning when I shave. Sometimes that image is a little clouded, but never have I been afraid to look at myself and say that I believe I have not done so badly the day before in the stand I have taken on a particular issue. On this moral issue I can say quite truthfully that the mirror I look into each morning is as clear as I would hope it to be. I regret that I cannot quote the scriptures at length and cannot quote chapter and verse to support my reasons for opposing the legislation. There has been much talk in the Chamber-well meaning and sincere - from both sides of the argument. I too am sincere and well meaning when I say that I shall not support the legislation in any form. It is comforting to me to know that I have made that decision without pressure and without advice from any person in my electorate. I acknowledge that subsequent to my making that decision I had dozens of letters from people throughout the country. The ones I value particularly are those from my own electorate that support my stand in opposition to the Bill. At public meetings I have attended and spoken at, not only in my electorate but also in other parts of New Zealand, on topics that have no relationship to the legislation, the question has inevitably arisen of what the public's attitude is to a lowering of the moral standards of the nation. I am not prepared to be party to going below the imaginary code or line of moral conduct beneath which I believe we as a nation and as individuals dare not fall . None of us has exactly the same argument or exactly the same opinions about that imaginary line. I have attended public meetings in my electorate on many topics. I am proud to say that not once did I receive threats or any adverse comment about my judgment on the matter from any person attending those public meetings. However, I am rather distressed to report that I have received letters from people who suggested that if I lend my support to the Bill my political future could possibly be in jeopardy. I say to those people about half a dozen at the most - who wrote to me in that vein that I value my integrity, for whatever it is worth. I shall not subjugate my moral standards, which have been imposed upon me by no one, to the demands of those people who suggest that I will be out of public office unless I support their particular point of view. I have said to my electorate, and I say to the House, that I would far sooner be out of public office than not to be able to look at myself in the mirror in the way I mentioned a few moments ago. An individual's stand on a moral issue is his decision, and his alone. Some members have been assisted in formulating their opinion by taking opinion polls. I make no criticism of them for that. However I did not find it necessary to do so. I took my stand before the pressure built up by way of petitions to the House or by the progression of the Bill through the House. My decision was made without the need to conduct opinion polls. I am pleased to say that I have received many letters of support from my own electorate. I have one here that I value as much as I value letters of support received from individuals. It is from my own home town of Kaikohe, from the Kaikohe Union Parish Church, which conducted a survey amongst its members. The letter from the session clerk stated: “The response to our circular requesting opinions we consider was significant, and also the resulting correspondence is very interesting and indicates that many people and congregations have given a lot of consideration to this subject.” I am not a particularly good church-goer, and I say that with a degree of sorrow. If I wanted to I could make all kinds of excuses about why I do not attend a church regularly, but I do not propose to do that. I have to live with myself, and I do not have to attend church and prayers to know that in my own estimation I am conducting myself as I would wish. My wife and family accept that that is my moral standard of conduct. I have also received letters from almost every locality within my electorate supporting my decision, which was made in isolation away from the pressures and advice of good and well-meaning people. Having made my decision I was encouraged by the 8,742 people who signed a petition that was circulated in my electorate opposing the Homosexual Law Reform Bill. Only one person who signed that petition has written to me and said that the signature on the petition was not supported, and asked to have it removed. I wrote back to that person and said I was more than happy to tell the organisers of the petition to have the name removed. That means that 8741, not 8742, citizens in my electorate signed the petition opposing the Bill. I was also particularly pleased and humbled to receive letters from the Maori people within my electorate. I might add that they were not on my electorate roll, but on the Northern Maori roll. They supported the decision I have made before any pressures built up. I shall quote from one of the many letters I received from my good friends the Maori people of Tai Tokorau: “So many of our Maori folk and pakeha folk feel about this Homosexual Law Reform Bill, which we believe if passed could spell disaster to this small country of ours, New Zealand-most Maori folk feel that this Bill, if passed, would negate many of the teachings that we have learnt in this last 150 years from the Christian faith.” It goes on to state that if their Maori ancestors who signed the Treaty of Waitangi had realised that there would be legislation before the House to lower the moral standards and the moral teachings that they were taught by the Christian faith, many if not most of them would not have signed the Treaty of Waitangi. That is how many of my Maori friends regard the prospect of the lowering of our moral standards if the Bill is passed. In conclusion I repeat to any who may wish to take note of what I say that I would much rather be out of public life than lower my moral standards by supporting the lowering of the morality of this country if the Bill is passed. I oppose the introduction of the Bill and I propose to oppose the legislation every step of the way. PAUL EAST (Rotorua): I have listened with interest to the speeches made on the second reading of the Bill and I have to say that Parliament hears some of the best speeches from members on these vexed conscience issues. I do not doubt for one moment the sincerity with which the speeches on both sides of the argument have been delivered. I shall not speak at any great length, but I feel that members should explain to the House and to their constituents why they have reached certain conclusions on the legislation. I voted for the introduction of the Bill because I believed - and I still believe - that the decriminalisation of homosexual acts is a subject that Parliament should properly consider and study, and that we should all inquire whether those acts should be legalised. I sat on the Justice and Law Reform Committee-formerly the Statutes Revision Committee-month after month, listening to the submissions made on the Bill. During the whole time that the legislation was referred to the committee I was the senior Opposition member present, and having heard all the evidence I believe there are grounds for the decriminalisation of homosexual acts. TREVOR MALLARD: The member came 9 times out of 26. PAUL EAST: We are getting the immediate reaction one would expect from the more vociferous proponents of the legislation. I want to set out my views clearly, irrespective of their behaviour, which, now they have raised it, is a matter that I feel I must deal with. At the appropriate time I shall seriously consider supporting the amendment that my colleague the member for Fendalton proposes - that homosexual acts between persons of 20 years of age be decriminalised. It is my personal view that homosexual acts should not be punished by the law, but I must say that the legislation the select committee studied and that was brought before the House goes much further than that. There are two points on which I disagree strongly with the legislation. First, in my view the age limit of 16 years is far too young. Boys of 16 years are still struggling with maturity. I believe they are not of an age at which they can properly consider whether they should indulge in homosexual behaviour. I disagree strongly with the provisions in the Bill that would enable youths of 16 years of age to engage in homosexual practices. I also strongly disagree with the human rights provisions contained in the legislation, which imply total acceptance of homosexuality by the public. I, for one, am not convinced that New Zealanders totally accept homosexuality, and I do not think that Parliament should, by legislation, force that acceptance on a society that is not ready for it and does not want it. At this stage, New Zealand society is not in a position to accept such a dramatic change to the law. In this legislation we are not seeking just decriminalisation; we are seeking acceptance by society, and in that respect the legislation goes too far. I have to say that it goes much too far when one considers the other human rights legislation and realises that there are discriminations in relation to age, race, religion, and sex. The police service, the armed forces, the prison service, and churches are not required to comply with human rights legislation in certain areas, but there are no exceptions in this legislation. That means that the police service, the armed forces, and the prison service will be required, by law, to accept in employment active, visible, practising homosexuals. It also means that organisations such as the boy scouts will be required to accept into full-time employment active, visible, practising homosexuals, and that schools run by churches that can have very strong fundamental beliefs about homosexuality will be required by this legislation to accept into employment active, visible, practising homosexuals, when that would obviously cause considerable problems for those organisations. We are not aware of any normal human rights exceptions that relate to race, religion, creed, and sex. The debate has covered extreme points of view on both sides of the argument, and that has not helped Parliament reach a conclusion on the legislation. On the one hand extremist statements have been made in the name of religion, and on the other hand there have been the activities of the homosexual community, and we have witnessed on television members of the Salvation Army being abused and molested on the way to church. Those on both sides who have acted in that manner have done their cause and Parliament a grave disservice. They should know that their actions have not convinced any member of Parliament that their cause should be supported, but in many cases have driven reasonable, sensible members to think again about the legislation. For those reasons, when a member finds himself in agreement with perhaps 25 percent of the Bill but cannot support 75 percent of it, I believe he should vote against the second reading. I shall be doing so, and I am particularly reinforced in my view by the manner in which the select committee handled the Bill. I take the strongest exception to the manner in which the Government members of the Justice and Law Reform Committee dealt with the Bill. I refer particularly to the select committee hearing on Wednesday, 2 October, which must be regarded as a black day in the history of Parliament in relation to a select committee hearing submissions from concerned members of the public. It was on that day that the two Opposition members of the Justice and Law Reform Committee came to that select committee hearing, prepared to hear evidence from the considerable number of people who still wanted to make their point of view known to Parliament on this very important Bill. I have to report that it was obvious to the two Opposition members present - the member for Waipa and me - that the Government members had already decided how best the Bill would be disposed of. They moved a motion that the committee deliberate immediately on the Bill, although some 70 or 80 groups, organisations, and individuals had taken the time to present submissions to Parliament and still wanted to make sure their point of view was made known to that committee. That was an affront to our democracy. Government members, by exercising their majority and overruling the two Opposition members denied those citizens, groups, and organisations their democratic right to come to Parliament and present their views to a select committee. Not only did the committee do that, but the Government members, again by weight of numbers, again over the vigorous protests of my colleague the member for Waipa and me, moved that a large number of parliamentary petitions on the issue of homosexual law reform-about 34 petitions - be dealt with in that cavalier fashion. It is one of the most ancient rights of a citizen to petition Parliament and to present one's views. I do not mind what side of the argument those petitioners are on; the simple fact is that it is their right so to petition Parliament, and they have been denied that right. The submissions were dealt with in a disgraceful way, and as a parliamentarian I was ashamed that a select committee dealt with the matter in the way it did. When I put the issue to Government members they could not produce one valid reason why the committee should stop hearing evidence and report back. The only reason they could produce was that it was a matter of convenience to the committee, that it had been sitting for 5 months, that that was long enough, that it might as well pack up the hearings and report back, irrespective of the people who had taken the trouble to prepare submissions and who still wanted to be heard. What made matters worse was the move to deliberate after hearing only part of the evidence. The committee did not discharge its duty to Parliament. When a Bill is sent to a select committee it is sent there for all the evidence to be heard, not just the evidence decided on by a gang that jacks up the committee and wants to steamroller its views over those of other members. The committee was given a job by Parliament that it did not fulfil, because it did not consider all the evidence. Not only did the committee deny an opportunity to many worth-while organisations and groups - and the National Council of Women was one organisation whose views I would have liked to hear but which was denied the opportunity of being heard on the matter - but it denied the departmental advisers of the Department of Justice, who had been sitting through committee hearings for 5 months, the opportunity of discussing those matters with the select committee. The Department of Justice reports were prepared. The committee received one, on the first half of the Bill, at the time it moved straight into deliberation, and it had no opportunity to consider it. The second Department of Justice report on the Bill came to members of the committee after the committee had already been forced to deliberate and to report back to the House. What use is it to have Government officials sit on the committee for 5 months and then deny them an opportunity to discuss those matters with committee members? The advisory officer to the committee then prepared a massive report, which again the committee members had no opportunity to consider before deliberating. I would also have liked to have the opportunity to seek the advice of the Human Rights Commission and to ask it to come before the committee, to explore with it the commission's views on the second part of the Bill dealing with human rights. But no, the committee was denied that opportunity. To make the position even worse, half way through that charade the Government members realised the damage they were doing to their cause so, in the interests of open government, they ordered the press from the room and took a vote to exclude the news media from the consideration of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill before the Justice and Law Reform Committee. The consideration was effectively held behind a shroud of secrecy because the Government members insisted, over my wishes and those of the member for Waipa, that the press should not remain. As a only now do we have the opportunity to inform Parliament of the disgraceful way in which the Justice and Law Reform Committee was forced to deal with the matter by weight of numbers of Government members, who had obviously come to the committee with a predetermined course of action on Wednesday, 2 October. It is an affront to Parliament that the Bill should proceed further in those circumstances. I hope that members will vote on the measure by saying to the sponsors of the Bill, who have a considerable measure of public support, that they should go away, start again, and do the job properly in the proper, traditional, democratic way, and not try to force the Bill through the House as they are doing. Having said that, I think I have outlined to the House and to my constituents the reason for the stand that I am taking on the second reading of the Bill. CLIVE MATTHEWSON (Dunedin West): During the election campaign before the last election I was asked several times what my reaction would be to a Homosexual Law Reform Bill, and I replied that I would vote for reform but that I did not consider it a pressing issue beside such matters as the economy, justice, and so on. Since that time, however, some water has gone under the bridge, a Bill has been introduced, members have all received a lot of mail, and I have done much study of the issue. I end up with no question about how I want to vote; but I end up also wishing to speak. I am speaking because I now consider the issue to be more important than I did at the time of the election. I consider the issue to be that of tolerance versus a morally judgmental view; of the role of the law; of rationality versus fear, and of sexual equality. I shall argue rationality, I hope. However, I have acquired strong feelings on the issue since the election. Those feelings came to a head when the petition against the Bill was presented. I watched the presentation of that petition, and I was offended by others taking over God, family, the country, and the national anthem to their cause, because I, too, feel some affinity with those items, and I do not believe that they belong to only one side of the argument. I found offensive the certainty, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, that the view of those people was not only right but that it alone had moral force, and that it should be forced on others. I accept and respect the fact that many people in my electorate, and in other electorates, are opposed to the Bill, are genuine in their feelings, and have very real fears about it. However, there are not more than 9,150 of those people in my electorate, because of those issues that have been canvassed already about the method of counting. That is not the real matter as issue. I was surprised by the way the petition was presented on the steps of Parliament. The boxes that were brought up the steps were not full. Why would the presenters of the petition bring a lot of empty boxes up the steps unless they were trying to impress people about the number of signatures collected? None of the boxes was even half full, and many of them had only an inch or two of paper in the bottom. Anybody can examine them and verify that. What was the reason behind that deception? If the petition had the force of reason behind it, it did not need to be made defective in that way. The presenters of the petition have threatened those who vote for the Bill with electoral defeat. I resent the idea that I am here just because I want to stay here. I must take notice of my constituents, but in the end I must vote for what I think is right, and I resent the implied threat, and the suggestion that I should vote against what I believe just for electoral advantage - and I shall not. I believe that sometimes a law should not be there, simply because there is no consensus on that law. I think law is generally bad law if only 50 percent agree that such a law is needed, because if only 50 percent agree that such a law is needed then clearly it does not have the respect of the majority of people, as I believe laws need to have. We all agree that we should have a law against murder, but we certainly do not all agree that we should have a law against homosexual activity. I believe that the standard of consensus required for us to have a law on moral issues such as this needs to be a great deal more than 50 percent, and that is not so. More than 50 percent of people believe that the law against homosexual activity should not exist; nor do I believe that we should keep a law just because it exists already. We should start from scratch and decide whether we need a law that is on the books, which is what the debate is all about. My principal concern is that it is not the role of the law to tell adults what they can do in private with consent, when no one else is involved, let alone hurt, apart from those consenting adults. In that respect I shall quote from the report of the Department of Justice, which the previous speaker said had not been able to be considered by the committee. It could have been considered, because committee members had the report to read - as the rest of us had - and even though it could not be presented orally the fact remains that the report was there. I quote from the report about the role of the criminal law: “By and large the criminal law of countries such as New Zealand does not intervene in the private lives of citizens to enforce any particular moral viewpoint. In a democratic and pluralistic society it is generally accepted that the law ought to recognise individual freedom of choice in matters of private morality, except where it is necessary to prohibit behaviour which occasions identifiable harm to others. “Broadly speaking, New Zealand's criminal code is concerned with restraining conduct which causes harm to others, protecting public decency, and maintaining public order. There are very few offences contained in the Crimes Act of which it could be said that the principal purpose of the prohibition is to enforce a moral standard. This approach is not really surprising. There are few moral issues on which society at large would be capable of reaching substantial agreement. To the argument that the criminal law is an appropriate instrument for enforcing one particular code of behaviour, the question then becomes which or whose morality should prevail. It would be quite inappropriate to expect the State to make such a choice. " If public debate on the Bill illustrates nothing else, it illustrates that there is no consensus in the community about the morality of homosexual conduct and the proscription of such conduct by criminal means. In these circumstances it would be normal for the criminal law to stand aside. To that extent the continued prohibition of consensual homosexual acts is an exception to traditional concepts about the proper scope of the criminal law.” That is a clear statement about the criminal law and I believe that an understanding of that is necessary for members of Parliament, who must examine the arguments for and against the legislation in a rational way. We do not have the luxury of having a view that can be held against the evidence. We must examine the arguments for and against the Bill and examine them in the light of the evidence. I shall refer to the arguments that have been advanced against the Bill. The first is that it is against Christian values. We have already canvassed whether one morality should be enshrined in the law, but also there is the question of what the Christian view is. I, like other members, have had many letters and communications from Christian people who favour repeal of the law as it stands. When I look at both sides of the argument I see the logic of decriminalisation from a Christian viewpoint because of the tolerance expressed on the side of reform. One of the other arguments against the Bill is that homosexuality is “curable”. That should not matter, even if it were, but the evidence is that that is not So-that homosexuality is fixed as a sexual orientation in people well before they reach the age of 16 years or, indeed, puberty. That is the overwhelming weight of the evidence and that is what we should listen to. To do anything else ignores that evidence. The third argument against the Bill is that homosexuality will cause the break-up of the family. I find that argument hard to follow, because the first element of it is that a change in the law will create more homosexuality and more homosexual activity. That is simply not the evidence from countries overseas that have changed the law. The second point is that I cannot see the mechanism for the break-up of the family in the passing of the Bill. Homosexuals are born into families, and decriminalisation of homosexuality will surely not cause them to lose their mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters. If they are not going to lose their mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters because of the Bill, perhaps it is because homosexuals generally do not have children. Surely that could not be a reason to rate them as criminals, because celibacy is accepted as a valid life-style if it is chosen, and celibates do not have children and we do not decide to make criminals of them. Perhaps it is thought that husbands will all suddenly rush off and become homosexuals? That simply does not accord with the sexual orientation of heterosexuals, who will not suddenly decide to become homosexual when the Bill is passed. That argument is not rational. The argument that the Bill will break up families is not logical. The fourth reason advanced against the Bill is that homosexuals indulge in child abuse and homosexual rape. I have received a letter stating that there will be hordes of homosexual gangs sodomising innocent citizens if the Bill is passed. The answer to that is that countries that have already decriminalised homosexual behaviour have not seen the kind of behaviour described in that letter. I would like to list some of the countries that have decriminalised homosexual acts. The idea has been advanced that we should have an inquiry. However, we are not exactly trying something new and radical. The United Kingdom has been mentioned, and homosexuality was decriminalised there many years ago. In Sweden the age of consent is 15, the same as for heterosexuals; in Norway the age of consent is 16, the same as for heterosexuals; in France the age of consent is the same as for heterosexuals; in Denmark the age of consent is 15, the same as for heterosexuals; in Austria the age of consent is 19; in the Federal Republic of Germany the age of consent is 18; in Italy the age of consent is the same as for heterosexuals - in Italy there has never been a criminal law against homosexuality; in Switzerland a commission has been established which recognises a liberalisation of the law, in the Netherlands the age of consent is 16, the same as for heterosexuals; in Belgium the age of consent is 18, and for heterosexuals 16; in Spain the age of consent is the same as for heterosexuals. JOHN BANKS: This isn't new! CLIVE MATTHEWSON: If it is not new, and the member for Whangarei knows it, why does he seem to think that we are doing something strange by introducing such a Bill? I am emphasising that New Zealand is not doing something new, strange, or radical, compared with other countries. In 1981 the Council of Europe, in a committee on social and health questions, adopted a draft recommendation on the elimination of discrimination against homosexuals, and particularly recommended that criminal liability for homosexual behaviour between adults should be abolished. More than half the states in the United States have decriminalised homosexual conduct in private. In Australia, New South Wales and the Australian Capital Territory have done the same. South Australia decriminalised homosexual conduct in private in 1976. It is interesting to note that up to a month ago not a single case of AIDS had been reported in South Australia, and that state has had decriminalisation of homosexual activity since 1976; whereas Florida, where it remains criminal, has the third-highest level of AIDS in the world. Those facts are contained in the Department of Justice report, so they are well documented. New Zealand is not doing something strange. The fifth argument advanced against the Bill relates to AIDS. I do not expect that any member would argue against the need to contain AIDS. However, one should consider the evidence about whether AIDS will increase with decriminalisation, or whether it will decrease. I have already noted the cases of Florida and South Australia, and the Director General of Health in New Zealand has said that there is no reasonable correlation between the incidence of AIDS and the law, and I accept that to be an authoritative opinion. I am not sure that the Bill will reduce the prevalence of AIDS, but I believe that it will certainly not make the position worse. If the threat of AIDS itself will not cause people to refrain from anal intercourse then the existence of an Act that is hardly enforced surely will not do so. That is a logical argument, and I invite members to try to argue with it. The only question that really must be decided is that of age, accepting that consenting adult behaviour should be decriminalised. It is logical to have the same age as for heterosexuality, or there is a discrimination between homosexual and heterosexual behaviour and between male and female persons. I believe that 16 is the age that should apply. I understand the reasoning of those who support the first part of the Bill but not the second. I understand their idea that personal freedom is the motivator-the freedom to hire whoever one likes, and so on. However, personal freedom must sometimes be curtailed. For example, we do not have the freedom to drive on the right-hand side of the road, for obvious reasons. I regard discrimination against homosexuality as no different from discrimination on the grounds of race or sex. People who apply for a job have a right to be treated according to the characteristics relevant to the job and not according to prejudice against what they do privately. Therefore I shall vote for the second part of the Bill. Morality has been mentioned tonight and on other nights. I regard values such as honesty, justice, caring for others, and intellectual honesty as moral values. That indicates to me that the moral position to take on the Bill is to support it, and I do not regard my view as being less moral than the view of the Bill's opponents. They are entitled to the view that they are more moral than I, but I certainly do not accept that. The Bill will be passed and it will lift a weight from perhaps 10 percent of the male population. Perhaps even more important, it will signal maturity and tolerance in our society. I am pleased to be able to endorse the Bill, and I encourage my colleagues to do the same. NORMAN JONES (Invercargill): We have heard the story about homosexuality and AIDS being prevalent in Florida, where homosexuality is still illegal. That has happened because Fidel Castro got rid of 207,000 of his prisoners and criminals, including 72,000 homosexuals whom he let out of communist Cuba into Florida, and that is why AIDS is prevalent. I give notice of an amendment at the second reading stage under Standing Order 213. I intend to move that the question be amended by omitting the word “now” and adding the words " this day 12 months”. It opens up the second reading debate for anyone who wants to have a second go, and that will give all the members who think it is a good idea the opportunity to continue. I shall give the reasons that I think the Bill should lie on the table for another 12 months before the House does anything further with it. I am sure that many members will rise to keep the debate going. The homosexual community received one hell of a shock in March. When the Bill was introduced the homosexual community thought that it would go into Parliament and be passed. It did pass the first reading by 51 votes to 24 votes, with 20 members absent. They had planned to bring the Bill in with the connivance of the Labour Government caucus as a diversion. TREVOR MALLARD: Rubbish! NORMAN JONES: There is no question about that. Not one voice was raised against the Bill in the caucus. The member for Wellington Central brought the Bill in as a diversion 8 months ago. The Government thought that it would pass through the House in a few weeks, but here we are, 8 months later, and we are still not through the second reading. Those people who are missing out on something outside the House and who have come here for the past three Wednesdays had better all go back to work, because they are missing out on their money and will not make any here. They did not expect the tremendous opposition that would be generated by the Bill, and thought it would be passed through its introduction stage easily - as it was, by 51 votes to 24 in early March. But here we are in November and they are not overjoyed about that today. I will wager a dozen bottles of whisky with any member that the Bill will not pass through the House in its present form. I am confident of that, because I have been doing my counting. I have been in the House during the debate over the 3 nights, and I have done my homework. There are perhaps 36 members who will vote against the Bill at every stage. There are probably 34 or 35 members who will vote for it at every stage. The homosexual task force has given instructions that the Bill must be passed with the 16 years of age provision. I know that amendments are proposed to increase the age to 18 years or 20 years. I shall vote against fixing the age at 20 years or 18 years. However, the final voting will be for the age of 16 years, or nothing, and I pick that the House will vote against the Bill. It is not over yet. The Bill will receive another second reading, and members will be able to speak again. There has been an internationally organised campaign by homosexuals. JIM ANDERTON: Organised? NORMAN JONES: The member for Sydenham who is trying to interject is the buddy member for Invercargill. Every time he opens his mouth in Invercargill he puts another 500 votes in my pocket. He is the best buddy one could have, and long may he remain the buddy member for Invercargill. I assure members that if the Bill is passed in any shape or form the repeal referendum petition will start the next day. It will be based on computerised electoral rolls. Every elector will be given the opportunity to sign the repeal petition that I, or someone else, will present in the House in 12 months' time. The matter will not go away. I tell members that it can be done. CLIVE MATTHEWSON: The member's obsessed. NORMAN JONES: Well, if I am obsessed it is a magnificent obsession. I am a liberal person. I am prepared to agree to disagree on matters such as abortion and adult adoption. I can see both sides of an argument, but on this matter an argument is either right or wrong. I shall not be mealymouthed and say that I agree to disagree. The Bill is wrong. I do not distinguish between sinners. I am no table-thumping, Bible-bashing Christian. I probably represent three-quarters of the 835,000 signatories to the petition who, like myself, do not go to church. I shall go to my Lord on Judgment Day and say: “Lord, I drink whisky, I swear, and I used to chase women, but there is one thing for sure - I do not chase blokes." I do not go to church; I go down to the stables and watch my horses work out. I will go down to hell, and I will have the company of the Anglican parsons, the Presbyterian parsons, and the Methodist parsons who go to their congregations and say that sodomy can be condoned because it is not a sin. They are being paid to preach the gospel. They will have more trouble with the Lord on Judgment Day than I will. I would like to be a fly on the wall when they are making their excuses. I want to return to the seriousness of the matter. It is not a laughing matter when the whole of the heterosexual population-not only the 5 percent or 4 percent homosexual population-is deliberately at risk from the homosexually induced venereal disease of AIDS. There is an internationally organised campaign amongst homosexuals in every country in the world. Hon. BOB TIZARD: People like the member are more in danger of Legionnaires disease. NORMAN JONES: The Minister of Energy is more in danger of senility than anything else. Throughout the international homosexual community there has been a campaign to pressurise the non-homosexual population to legalise sodomy to prevent the spread of the homosexual disease AIDS. That is what homosexuals have been doing. It became obvious 5 years ago to homosexuals in the United Kingdom, Europe, America, and all over the world that they were killing themselves by the thousands with AIDS. It was obvious to them that no Government or major multinational corporation would spend millions of dollars on research on a homosexual disease when homosexuals make up only a small percentage of the population. They would not be able to get the kind of money spent on AIDS research to stop this fatal disease that other people were receiving to spend on multiple sclerosis, cancer, arthritis, and so on. Therefore, the only hope for the international homosexual community was for the world's blood banks to become sufficiently contaminated with AIDS and for enough innocent people, women and children, haemophiliacs, wives of bisexual men, and members of the heterosexual community-to become contaminated with the AIDS virus and be poisoned to death by that homosexual venereal disease. World Governments, corporations, medical foundations, and local governments are spending millions of dollars on research. The homosexual community is bloody minded. It has blamed the heterosexuals for the complaint, and has deliberately spread the AIDS disease into the world's blood banks. Until Parliament can assure the heterosexual community that the Department of Health and the New Zealand medical profession can protect haemophiliacs against the AIDS virus, and that the blood banks are not contaminated, we should not legalise sodomy at 16 years of age. If the Bill is passed, AIDS will increase, not decrease. Debate interrupted. The House adjourned at 11 p. m.

IRN: 3857
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TITLE: Homosexual Law Reform Bill - Report of Justice and Law Reform Committee (5 November 1985)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 5 November 1985
YEAR: 1985
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 5 November 1985, New Zealand Parliament. TREVOR MALLARD (Hamilton West): I am directed to report that the Justice and Law Reform Committee has carefully considered three petitions praying that Parliament vote that the Homosexual Law Reform Bill does not proceed and 31 petitions praying that the House reject the Homosexual Law Reform Bill, and has no recommendation to make. I move, That the report do lie upon the table. The collection of signatures for the petition and its presentation have been controversial. The member for Manawatu has said that the rally outside Parliament resembled a rally at Nuremberg, and there is probably not much need for debate on that subject. There were 91 boxes sitting in the House. They were covered in slogans. What we were not told was that none of them was more than 50 percent full and that many were less than 25 percent full. The overstatement involved in the presentation of the boxes and the overstatement about numbers, to which I will refer later, do no credit to the petitioners. They debase to the level of unbelievable propaganda the strongly held views of many thousands of people. The committee hearing itself was relatively exciting. It went from the morning until after 7 p. m. The petitioners had seven witnesses, including a laboratory technician who presented the medical argument. All witnesses were subjected to extensive questioning, except the witness who ordered the petition's collation. He shot through before all members could question him. All questions apart from that one were answered, including those supplied to the member for Hauraki by his question writer, Barry Reid, the public relations officer for Mr Hay. WINSTON PETERS: I raise a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. It will have occurred to you, as it has occurred to the rest of the House, that the reporting back thus far has been purely outrageous. The member, who is required to report back accurately what went on before the select committee, is reporting pure hearsay, supposition, and guesswork on his part. I ask you to bring him back to the purpose of the debate, which is to give an accurate report of what went on. TREVOR MALLARD: Speaking to the point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker, I was referring to a sheet of questions that was given to me instead of to the member for Hauraki. Hon. JIM MCLAY: Whichever side of the argument members are on, they expect that the reporting back of a petition signed by a large number of citizens, whatever argument there might be about the actual number, will be treated seriously and with some dignity by the House. We have not heard much about the petition hearing itself. We have heard some derogatory comments about those people who assembled outside Parliament for the presentation of the petition; we have heard derogatory comments about some of the people who appeared before the committee; and we have heard derogatory comments about some of the members of Parliament who served on the committee. At a certain stage the dignity of the House demands that you draw members' attention to the Standing Orders, particularly those dealing with the narrower purposes of this debate. MICHAEL CULLEN: This is a debating chamber in which members have the right of free speech within the confines of the Standing Orders. The petition is being reported back with no recommendation. As the matter is a conscience matter, all members have the right of free speech. If the member, though he be chairman, wants to comment on the nature of the petition, the evidence presented by the petitioners, or the attitudes they adopt, that is his choice. As this is a conscience issue, members on either side have the right to respond in the way they see fit. Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER: Two points have been made, and they both have equal weight and importance. The point concerning relevance is an important one. Speaker's ruling 27/5 states: “Only those matters that were dealt with in the select committee and were in the Bill may be discussed on the report of a select committee. The appropriate time for a wider discussion of the principles of the Bill and what is contained in the Bill is during the second reading." The member for Hamilton West has conformed to those requirements as far as he has gone. I shall allow him to continue, but I remind him that we must remain narrow in our consideration of the petition. We are debating what went on during the consideration of the petition by the select committee. It is worth noting that the member for St. Kilda is correct also when he says that other members who want to reflect upon the proceedings of the select committee are free to take part in the debate. TREVOR MALLARD: The member for Invercargill also played a prominent part in the committee. As well as telling of his experiences in Cairo, he tabled a long list of practices adopted by some people promoting the petition that led to a questioning of the validity of some of the signatures. I carefully examined the petition as it related to my electorate. The petitioners claimed that 17,000 electors had signed it. In fact, their coding showed that only 12,000 were claimed for the Hamilton West electorate, of whom only 3,188 are on the electoral roll. There are more than 100 cases in Hamilton of multiple signatures and many cases of the same handwriting being used for more than one name. The petitioners' witnesses said that it was thought acceptable for one person to sign for a family, workmates, or persons in a hotel too inebriated to sign. It is the role of the House to deal with the Homosexual Law Reform Bill. In dealing with it members should carefully consider the actions of the petitioners. It would be inappropriate to refer the report to the Government, as the Bill is a private member's Bill. Therefore the committee made no recommendation. NORMAN JONES (Invercargill): I move, That the motion be amended by adding the words: " and be referred to the Government for most favourable consideration”. I do so because this petition of 817,000 signatures is the largest presented to a Parliament of New Zealand. It far exceeds the " Save Manapouri” petition of 260,000 signatures, which I was responsible for starting, and it also far exceeds the Maruia “Save the Beech Forest" petition of 314,000 signatures. This petition has 817,000 signatures and it was started only 7 months ago. Since it was presented to the House, further signatures have been coming in at the rate of 1,000 a day. I have here another 18,000 signatures that I cannot present to the House because the petition has been presented. However, I produce them here, and they bring the total to 835,000 signatures. Irrespective of what the member for Hamilton West says - and he was the acting chairman of the committee before this major petition was presented-on 18 September he sent a memorandum to all Government members and others. He was supposed to be impartial. I should have expected it from the member for Wellington Central but, to her credit, she did not do it. His memorandum stated: “We have reasons to believe that the total figures of the Keith Hay homosexual law reform petition should be challenged" - that was before it was even presented to the House. “We have written personal letters to the following in the name of the chairman of the committee” - and he goes on to say, as he did today, that schoolboys said they had signed it 27 times. If a schoolboy lied and said he had signed it 27 times who would believe him on the twenty-eighth time, when he told his own member of Parliament that he had signed it 27 times? We presented this petition to Parliament in good faith. We put it into electorate form, not because it was necessary - that is irrelevant. This petition of 835 000 signatures speaks for itself. It needs no explanation. It comes from many hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders-yes, they are probably aged from 12 upwards, because the Bill affects 12-yearolds, but not 6-year-olds. We are quite prepared to concede that people below voting age signed the petition, although we will certainly not concede that numbers of children did so. I can prove that quite conclusively and can produce another petition, if necessary based on the computerised electoral rolls, and I intend to do so. Whatever the fate of the petition, the issue will not go away. It will remain with the country up to and including election year. On behalf of the chief petitioners I tell members that we will computerise the electoral rolls and will put 500 people into every electorate. We will give the member for Hamilton West and the member for Wellington Central a computerised electoral roll petition for the repeal of whatever Bill is passed. We will give them an electoral petition of each of the rolls, with the particulars of every voter. The names and addresses will be printed and there will be provision for the signature. We will give each of those 400 to 500 people 50 names to contact within the next 12 months, and I will personally move a homosexual law reform repeal Bill at the appropriate time. At that time we will make it an election issue. If the member does not believe we can do that I tell him that we will. We produced 835,000 signatures in 7 months, so we have the support and the money. That kind of petition will not go away. Hon. ANN HERCUS (Minister of Social Welfare): I must challenge the reported figures for the Hay petition in relation to evidence from my own electorate of Lyttelton. When I was given, through my office, a report of the Hay petition divided into electorates I naturally looked up the electorate of Lyttelton. The claim was that 5,139 people had signed the petition and were identified as coming from within the boundaries of the Lyttelton electorate. I chose to take a very large team of workers over a period of several days to the room in this building where that petition was lodged. Every single sheet in every one of the 92 boxes containing the petition sheets was searched, and each sheet that contained a Lyttelton address was put aside and xeroxed. Those xeroxed sheets were taken back to my electorate where a second team of workers examined each of the signatures in relation to each one of the addresses. I was, first, extremely puzzled to find not 5,139 signatures but 1,500 signatures a very small proportion of the larger number claimed. JOHN BANKS: Did you go through the sheets? Hon. ANN HERCUS: I went through every single sheet in the whole 92 boxes over 3 days, not alone, but with a team of helpers. There were only 1,500 signatures and addresses that related to addresses in the Lyttelton electorate, not 5,139. My team of helpers in the Lyttelton electorate then checked each of those 1,500 names, and I have to report to the House that most of those 1,500 names appeared to be genuine. There were signatures which, although they were illegible, were able to be checked against a habitation index and judged to be appropriately the signatures of those persons. Most of the addresses were correctly in the Lyttelton electorate, but there is substantial evidence from the Lyttelton electorate that the Hay petition has somehow totally overrepresented and misrepresented the number of signatures claimed on the petition to have come from the Lyttelton electorate. There is a double check on this that I find fascinating. As the House will know I recently held a referendum in the Lyttelton electorate with ballot papers delivered to every single household. WINSTON PETERS: I raise a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Nothing that members have heard so far relates in any way, shape, or form to the reporting back from the select committee. While I respect what the member is saying about how she feels about the petition, we are talking about the petition's course at the select committee. I ask you to ask her to address her comments to the matter before the House - the reporting back from the select committee or the amendment. FRAN WILDE: The member is indeed speaking to the evidence given to the select committee. The witnesses who appeared before the committee to present the petition were examined at length about the method they had used to ascertain the eligibility of the signatures, whether the signatures were genuine, and how they had been collected. That is exactly what the Minister is addressing in her speech. She is sticking very closely to the discussion of the select committee's hearings of the petition. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Speaker's ruling on this subject is clear enough: Speaker's ruling 27/5 states that only those matters dealt with in the select committee and in the petition may be discussed on the reporting back from a select committee. I understand that the material being presented by the Minister was not heard in the select committee. At the same time, I understand that she is introducing a critique of the material that was heard by the select committee in a form that was pursued at the time that the select committee sat. For those reasons I have to allow what the Minister is proceeding to do; although I must caution her that she must continue to refer to the proceedings of the select committee and make her material relevant to that consideration. Hon. ANN HERCUS: I am doing exactly that, because my understanding of the report of what happened at the select committee was that the petitioners indicated that, in terms of overall counting and checking, they had insisted that at least six different people had minimised discrepancies. I am giving evidence of my independent checking, which contradicts that suggestion. I was saying that the material I am producing for the House was double-checked, and that the return from a referendum I held recently in the Lyttelton electorate showed that 1,736 people opposed the Bill. I suggest that that figure is remarkably close to the figure of 1,500 who said they signed the petition. Its closeness is even more remarkable when it is taken into account that a couple of hundred of the 1,500 people who said they signed the petition have to be disallowed because their names, for instance, were the names of people who were not found on the roll, the names of people who were signing phoney names, and so on. I suggest that whatever the Hay petition represents it does not represent more than 5,000 people from my electorate who have signed the petition. At most it represents a few more than 1,000. WINSTON PETERS (Tauranga): There are people in this country who would have heard that speech with some amusement, as I did. I know all about the constitutional purity of certain members. When the Minister of Social Welfare witnessed the greatest constitutional outrage this country has ever seen she remained silent. Dead people voted, as did people from Piedmont in California and people who did not live within cooee of my electorate, yet she remained silent. Today she is as pure as the driven snow on the matter of whether somebody can sign something as innocent as a petition. She claimed to have held a referendum. Does she know what the word means? Will she still claim that she held a referendum in her electorate? Of course she did not. So why did she falsely claim that she did? The petition speaks for itself. More than 817,000 people signed it. It does not matter about their ages, their addresses, or who or what they are. What matters is that they are following the century-old tradition that gives them the right to petition their Parliament. That is the nub of the matter. Those people want Parliament to do something, and it does not matter what side of the issue they are on. It is wrong to try to deny and discredit the petition, because even if 500,000 signatures were incorrect it would still be the biggest petition in the history of New Zealand and no amount of electoral gerrymandering in the mind of the Minister of Social Welfare would change that. I speak in favour of the amendment and against the reporting back. The chairmanship of the committee was, frankly, not within the traditions of this Parliament. It was abysmal. The chairman declared his position. He was biased, impartial, and prejudiced, and he sent out a letter to his colleagues attempting to damn the petition before it came before the committee. If there is one thing the Standing Orders must be used to rule on it is that kind of behaviour on the part of a committee chairman-breach of privilege, you name it, the member for Hamilton West was involved in it. And he has the audacity to try to damn members who hold a different point of view. He said that some school children signed the petition 27 times. Here is a fair challenge-let him name one schoolboy who signed the petition 27 times. If he had conducted the thorough analysis on the Bill that he claims to have conducted he would be able to stand up right now and say, “I know who that boy is”, because he said that many boys signed it. Can the member name one? Of course he cannot and will not. That is the reason the member for Hamilton West will go. He cannot get away with that patent falsehood on a matter about which so many people are sensitive. Hon. ANN HERCUS: A conscience vote. WINSTON PETERS: Truth is not a matter of conscience. Our consciences can differ, but we are talking about truth now, and that is what separates the member for Hamilton West from those who want veracity in the debate. The petition, which was signed by more than 800,000 New Zealanders, received but a few hours' hearing before the select committee, and those few hours belie everything the Deputy Prime Minister has ever said about how he was going to hold select committee hearings. If ever we have seen just how shallow that man is, we saw it today with the petition. In all the debates he has said absolutely nothing. His record of speaking engagements at the Rotary clubs about open government and reforming the select committee system are but lies before the truth of the committee's experience. ACTING SPEAKER (TREVOR YOUNG): Order! I ask the honourable member to withdraw that reference. He knows the words to which I refer. WINSTON PETERS: I withdraw. ACTING SPEAKER (TREVOR YOUNG): I have just taken over the chair, but I am having difficulty relating what the honourable member is saying to the reporting back of the committee on the petition. WINSTON PETERS: I shall separate the difficulties. The petition was twice as large as any petition that has ever come before Parliament, yet the select committee treated it in a cursory, cavalier, and arrogant fashion. The Deputy Prime Minister should explain what he meant about giving Parliament real control. He said that on 2 April 1984. Of course, that was before the election. He talked about giving select committees the quality of democracy. What was he talking about? It is high time he explained himself, because frankly - and I do not care what side of the issue people are on-those people were treated in a cavalier fashion. GEOFF BRAYBROOKE (Napier): The right to petition Parliament is an ancient right throughout the English-speaking world. It is a means by which citizens can bring before their member of Parliament-or even before a queen or king in old times - their belief that something is wrong, and can demand justice. There was an almost instant reaction to the Bill when it was introduced. It came as a surprise to many people, and to many politicians as well, because neither members nor parties had a mandate for the Bill. The petition was a reaction to the introduction of the Bill. It also showed the genuine concern and fear of many of our citizens. It was obvious when the petition was launched that those who promoted the Bill in favour of homosexual law reform would have to pull out all the stops to try to degrade the petition, by whatever means, true or false. They knew that everything they could do would have to be done, because a petition of that magnitude would have huge punching power in the Chamber. Today we have heard about people who cannot be named, and who signed 27 times, and we have heard about other people signing from the tomb. Even if only half the signatures were genuine the petition would still be huge. The citizens of New Zealand are expressing a very strong concern about the introduction of the Bill. I know that the Bill will be debated tomorrow night and that it will be put to a vote during the Committee stage. However, the petition is the way in which citizens have told members of Parliament to go no further. It is their right to do that, and I respect that right. During the reporting back of the Bill I was disappointed to hear my colleague describe in an insulting manner what happened on the steps of Parliament when the petition was presented. I was present at the time, together with other caucus colleagues. I did not think of Nuremburg, and I cannot understand how anybody could say that unless from a warped mind. People sang the national anthem and then recited the Lord's Prayer. That is not an insult. We say a prayer in the Chamber-does that remind anybody of Nuremberg? If church groups were present and girls and boys dressed in Brigade uniforms carried the flag of their country would that represent Nuremberg? It is an insult even to suggest that. I defend the right of any citizen to present a petition to Parliament: it is a right, and members should respect it. We have heard a lot about human rights. I wonder if that same concern for nan rights will be expressed when a Bill is presented dealing with the human rights of the unborn child - I bet we will hear a different story then. I support the amendment moved by the member for Invercargill. It is cavalier to reject the largest petition in the history of New Zealand without making any recommendation whatsoever. I am sad that those who have objected to the petition and have promoted the Bill - and they have every right to do so - should have sat in judgment on it. I believe that was wrong. Justice must not only be done; it must also be seen to be done. I believe that that important consideration was lacking when the petition was presented, and I sincerely regret that. I end by saying that the issue will not die. It will not go away, even when the Bill to which the petition refers is voted upon. Even if the petition is committed to the archives I believe that there is an overwhelming desire in the hearts and minds of the citizens of New Zealand that the Bill should not proceed. The petition echoes those thoughts. The only way to settle the matter is by a referendum. I am convinced that the people of New Zealand should decide the matter. By presenting the petition the people have already spoken, and it belittles members to jeer at, sneer at, or degrade an honest petition that many thousands signed in good faith. ACTING SPEAKER (TREVOR YOUNG): Order! I am in a quandary. I normally move from one side of the Chamber to the other, and I believe that that would be the best way to handle the debate. However, I realise that there are members in the Chamber who, irrespective of the party to which they belong, have different views. At this stage I believe I know the views of various members. If I take a call from a person who has a contrary point of view to the member who has just spoken I must call a Government member. If I call an Opposition member, I know that he will express a view similar to that of the member who has just spoken. I am in the hands of the Chamber. I think it would be fairer to go from side to side of the Chamber, although it could mean that there could be a preponderance of speakers on one side of the debate. For that reason I feel justified in calling on the member for Nelson at this stage. JOHN BANKS (Whangarei): I raise a point of order, Mr Acting Speaker. Of course I support your ruling. However, I make the point that the member for Nelson will have an opportunity to speak later, because I understand that it is your intention to call as many members as want to speak. ACTING SPEAKER (TREVOR YOUNG): No, the debate is a 1-hour debate. JOHN BANKS: In those circumstances I believe it is only fair that you should take calls in sequence from Government members and Opposition members. MICHAEL CULLEN (St. Kilda): I believe that you are in a quandary because it is a conscience vote and there are no party lines. In calling the member for Napier the Deputy Speaker called two members consecutively to speak on the same side of the issue. Were you now to call the member for Hauraki, that would mean we would have three members speaking consecutively on the same side of the issue. The sides are not marked by a neat line down the middle of the Chamber - they are sides in terms of how members view both the Bill and the amendment. I suggest that there are strong arguments for opposing the amendment, even if members oppose the Bill. The matter is not quite as simple as some members have suggested, because the amendment touches the heart of a conscience vote. There is good reason for suggesting that the member for Nelson should have the next call. Indeed, there is reason for suggesting that two members who are opposed to the amendment should be called consecutively, since two members who were in support of it were called consecutively previously. In terms of the balance within a 1-hour time-limit debate, it would be quite unfair to call three members consecutively on one side of the issue when I believe that all members recognise that the House is fairly evenly poised between the two sides on the issue, which runs across party lines. GRAEME LEE (Hauraki): I believe that the ruling given during the second reading debate - that the debate should favour those against and those for in alternate form-was appropriate. The debate is a 1-hour debate, and it is appropriate to call alternate speakers from the Government side and the Opposition side. In a limited-time debate that is the only reasonable and fair ruling. ACTING SPEAKER (TREVOR YOUNG): I am concerned that no Government or Opposition Whips are operating at present. I draw the attention of members to Speaker's ruling 51/2. When the Whips are not operating the Speaker has several criteria for calling members. First, he tends to call senior members; second, he tends to alternate between the sides of the House, although not knowing which side of the argument individual members are on; third, he must note the length of time a member has been seeking the call - and that is relevant; and the fourth consideration is the member's involvement with a subject. Those are the points that are guiding me and have guided Speakers in the past. As I am aware of the involvement in the matter of the member who last spoke and the member who would now seek the call from the National Party rather than the Opposition side, I feel that in view of that Speaker's ruling I should call the member for Nelson. PHILIP WOOLLASTON (Nelson): It has properly been said that the presentation of petitions to Parliament is an ancient and important right of the people, and it has a central place in our democracy. That places a solemn duty on members of the House to consider seriously petitions presented to the House. It also presents an equally solemn duty on those seeking to have petitions presented to the House to ensure that what they say about those petitions is correct and, as far as it is within their power, to make sure that the petitions accurately represent the names on them and the views of the people whose names appear on them. In that context I shall comment on some aspects of the petition and the evidence that was given to the committee. The two principal petitioners, Mr Hay and Sir Peter Tait, said in presenting their submissions that the fact that the petition had been broken down into electorates demonstrated the bona fides, or good faith, of the persons promoting and administering the petition. They said: “If the petitioners had felt they had anything to hide the petition could have been presented in any order, which would have made it almost impossible to criticise the logistics, statistics, and inferences drawn from it.” Certainly it did appear when the petition was presented to members of Parliament on the steps, and brought into the Chamber shortly thereafter, that it had been sorted into electorates. The 92 boxes brought into the House had the names of electorates on them. I went to the strongroom in which the petition was kept, expecting to find the box that contained signatures from my electorate. I found that not only were the boxes about seven-eighths empty - they were large boxes - but also that the impression that had been given to the television watching public of a petition presented by electorates was not correct. The claim made by the chief petitioners to the select committee, which they said indicated the good faith of the petitioners, was, in fact, totally void. The petition forms had not been sorted into electorates. With the time and resources available to me I was not able to check fully to find how many signatures there were from my electorate. I did go through about half of the boxes and from them I took a sample of forms bearing the parliamentary code for my electorate. That presumably meant that those names had been entered on to a computer to turn out the number of signatures that were purported to be from Nelson. I received a document from the petitioners that claimed that 12,142 people residing in the Nelson electorate had signed, and that was compared with the number of electors in my electorate. The suggestion was made that a majority of Nelson electors are opposed to the passage of the Bill. In fact, at least one-third of the names purporting to come from my electorate were not correctly attributed. I have photocopies of a sample of petition forms that I am happy to table. One contains 23 names, all attributed to Nelson. None of the people on that sheet gave addresses in the Nelson electorate. Another sheet gave 26 names, of which 25 are attributed to Nelson. Of those signatures, 16 came from other electorates and 2 were not on the roll. Only seven signatures were correctly attributed. Another sheet contained the names of six people from another electorate, all encoded for Nelson. Of four people listed on another sheet, only one came from the Nelson electorate. Perhaps the most interesting of all is a sheet that contains 25 names, 21 attributed to Nelson. Of those, only two were actually on the Nelson electoral roll. The others gave Nelson addresses and appeared to be in the handwriting of children. Many of them appear to be in the same handwriting. One of those people was known to the person who checked the signatures, and was contacted. She is a college pupil in Nelson, and she stated that she had never seen the petition and had certainly not signed it. I am not saying that none of the signatures purporting to come from Nelson is valid, but certainly a significant proportion of those signatures that are claimed to be from the Nelson electorate are from other electorates, have been wrongly attributed to my electorate, or are in some way those of minors or even of people who did not sign the petition. Some people complained to me about coercion to sign the petition at the work-place, and that they were subject to the censure of their workmates if they declined to do so. I have also heard of an instance of a child of about 10 years of age being pressured to sign the petition on the main street. That calls into question the good faith of the petitioners. GRAEME LEE (Hauraki): I endorse the amendment moved by my colleague that the petition be given most favourable consideration. It is an insult to the intention and integrity of more than 817,000 New Zealanders that the petition should have been reported back with no recommendation. From the outset, let the House be reminded that the acting chairman on that day - the member for Hamilton West - sought to restrict the opportunities of the petitioners to give evidence. The acting chairman used all kinds of unprincipled and partial behaviour to restrict the opportunities for the petitioners in presenting the largest petition in the history of New Zealand and of Parliament. As a result of the debacle that ensued, I felt it necessary to move a motion of no confidence in the acting chairman. However, because of the predominance of Government members on the committee, the motion was lost. But it was not lost on the public. The petitioners presented a professional submission. It was a compilation of the evidence of several people. In his evidence Mr Keith Hay spoke about the family breakdown that would result if the Bill became law. Sir Peter Tait commented on the need to keep the present law as a buffer. He also said that everything had been done to ensure that the petition was correctly handled. Mr Alan Anderson, a former senior laboratory scientist, stated his belief that AIDS would escalate if homosexuality were decriminalised. Mr Peter van Rijs, a solicitor, said that the legislation was a pace-setter and the most progressive of its kind in the world. He said that New Zealanders were pawns on the world's gay scene, because Parliament was being asked to pass legislation that had not been passed anywhere in the world. The Rev. Phillips gave evidence that the Bible was clear in its teachings and that it spoke against homosexual practices. Mr James Bacon, a university professor, also gave clear evidence about the implications in the classroom and the way the Bill would damn the children of the nation if it became law. The petition was the largest ever presented to Parliament. It would have achieved the 1,000,000 target set by the petitioners if there had been more time. The signatures were gathered in just over 6 months, which is a remarkably short period. According to the petitioners, everything was done to ensure that the petition was conducted with integrity, care, and caution. On the bottom of the petition form it was stated that only people above secondary school age should sign the petition. It was also noted that, per capita, the petition was the largest ever presented to a Western Parliament. Of course there were allegations about the petition, and attempts to deny and discredit it, because that was the only way the proponents of the Bill and the opponents of the petition could make their case valid. However, that was not achieved, despite the comments made in the House tonight. The comments made by the Minister of Social Welfare hinged on the examination by her people of the contents of the petition boxes. I challenge her to provide evidence that her people went through the boxes systematically, page by page. The member for Hamilton West knows that his claim is wrong. It depends on the opinions of a group of people, and he knows that it is far from accurate. He also knows that the petition was presented to Parliament, and not to individuals. FRAN WILDE (Wellington Central): I want to comment on some of the activities that took place during the committee hearings, because it is important that the public knows what the petitioners told the committee when they were asked about the integrity of the petition, as mentioned by the previous speaker. They brought a Mr Wilding to the committee; he had been the petition scrutineer in Auckland. He told the committee that each sheet had been examined carefully, probably about six times, that the names had been coded according to electorates, and that the results had finally been written down and allocated. The result was the gold-covered book sent to all members. The committee asked that man and other witnesses how they came by the figures in the book that purported to show the percentage of the electoral population that had signed the petition in each electorate. The replies were interesting. I particularly asked whether there had been a habitation index for each electorate to check the names and streets of the people who had signed. Mr Wilding answered, “What's that?” He did not know what a habitation index was. I asked him whether he used the electoral rolls. I said, “I presume you used the electoral rolls.” He replied, “No, we didn't use electoral rolls. We do not have access to that sort of equipment as do members of Parliament.” I asked, “How then did you know which electorate people lived in?" He said, “Well, our people who were checking just put them into the electorate that they thought they lived in.” He was asked, “For example, if they wrote the name of their street and simply ·Hamilton', how did you allocate the electorate?" Mr Wilding replied, " Is it important?" I suggested that it was important, because the committee was presented with evidence from the petitioners stating the proportion and the number of electors in each electorate who had signed the petition. The integrity of the petition was in question. The committee was told that the names were allocated according to what electorate the sorters thought they were in, and those left over were put in a pool and allocated out on a pro rata basis. In the case of Hamilton City they were allocated among only two Hamilton electorates, not the four electorates that cover Hamilton. Unfortunately for the petitioners, some academic demographers at the University of Waikato went to the trouble of examining the Hamilton samples. They pulled out all the Hamilton sheets from the petition-a task that took several helpers a number of hours. They found that 22. 4 percent were validly on the role in the electorate claimed by the petitioners. We had been assured by the petitioners that the signatures were thoroughly checked and were all valid. After hearing that evidence I was concerned about how valid they were, and I produced some photocopy sheets of some pages of the petition. This page has a number of signatures from Wainuiomata. On the bottom line are six signatures, all in the same handwriting. I asked one of the petitioners, Mr Roest, how that came about. He said that often in Maori families one person would sign for the whole lot. It is a very interesting Maori household! The names are Conlan, Patterson, Thompson, and Campbell. All those people with different surnames live in one house in Wainuiomata, and have the same handwriting. I suggest that that was a racist statement for Mr Roest to make, and it clearly indicated that the petition did not have much integrity. The member for Hauraki has claimed that they presented professional witnesses. He quoted a Mr Anderson. I received a letter from the University of Auckland after the hearing, from Dr Paul Goldwater, a senior lecturer in virology, who said that it was important that he commented on the validity of Mr Anderson's submission. He said Mr Anderson was not correct in calling himself a medical laboratory scientist or an immunohaematologist. He was a medical laboratory technologist, and although he had a very good knowledge of hepatitis viruses he had not kept up with the current knowledge about AIDS. His professional qualifications were certainly in doubt, as was the factual evidence he gave to the committee, which was wrong. Mr Anderson told us that the Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists was wrong and he was right, that the American Psychological Association was wrong and he was right, and that the long list of doctors from the Wellington region who signed a statement in favour of the Bill was wrong. JOHN BANKS (Whangarei): I rise to support the amendment that the House should give most favourable consideration to the petition. Over the past few months matters relating to the Bill have been handled with obscene haste by a committee of Parliament. The principal petitioners and others feel cheated by the manner in which a committee of Parliament has treated them. Having read most of the submissions to the select committee - although I was not a member of it, I know that the thrust of the argument of the petitioners opposing the Bill was simply that it was designed to destroy the fundamental building block of the nation - the family unit - and, ultimately, democracy itself. According to the principal petitioners the Bill is, in simple terms, just another Exocet accurately aimed at the crumbling house of Christianity. The petitioners opposing the Bill and other so-called social reforms believe that it will have a devastating medical, social, and moral impact on the future of the country. The 800,000 people who signed the petition have that simple message, and I am giving that message to the House tonight. They are concerned that they have come to the highest court in the land and been cheated by a select committee of Parliament, of which the member for Hamilton West was the chairman at the time a vote of no confidence was moved in the chairmanship. On the day I attended the committee his colleague the member for Hamilton East was the chairman, and I have never seen such a sycophantic performance. Trevor Mallard: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Evidence on the petition was heard on 1 day. The member for Whangarei was not a member of the committee. SPEAKER: That is not a valid point of order. Any member may comment on the proceedings of the committee. JOHN BANKS: The member is correct about the evidence on the petition. I was referring to the submissions made on the Bill by 800,000 people, some of whom will be listening to the radio tonight. I am concerned about the cavalier manner in which the member for Hamilton West treated the people who, because of their concern, turned up at their own expense to present submissions to the select committee. They were treated badly. The 11,052 people in Whangarei who signed the petition said, “Mr Banks, we don't want you to support the Bill but to support the petition.” That is what I shall do. I support the representatives of the 800,000 New Zealanders who came to Parliament to show they were outraged at this initiative and wanted it stopped. That is why I rise to speak to the amendment my colleague has moved. Even if only 10,500 people signed the petition in Whangarei, that number is still enough. In a recent radio poll conducted in my electorate by Radio New Zealand - which be checked by the member for Wellington Central who is the architect of the Bill - 80 percent of Whangarei people said they did not want the Homosexual Law Reform Bill, basically because they also believed that the family unit is sine qua non. They have asked me to speak clearly to the House about their opposition to the legislative initiative and they want me to support my colleague's amendment to give the petition most favourable consideration. It is outrageous that the Government member for Wellington Central should have been a principal participant on the day the petition was heard, because I saw her performance on the day I was present at the hearing of the submissions on the principal Bill. The manner in which she manipulated the sycophantic member for Hamilton East who was the chairman on that day had to be seen to be believed. It was sickening. It was a conspiracy such as I have not seen before by members of a committee. The standing of Parliament has gone down in the public's eyes as a result of the obscene way the concerns of 800,000 New Zealanders have been treated. MICHAEL CULLEN (St. Kilda): I want to make only one point about the hearing on the petition, and that is that all Opposition members who were present were given a full opportunity to ask questions. The member for Wellington Central asked her questions only when every committee member had finished. The amendment moved by the member for Invercargill is very dangerous, and even members who oppose the Bill should think very carefully before they support it. The amendment refers the petition to the Government for most favourable consideration. NORMAN JONES: That's right. It's your policy to bring it in. MICHAEL CULLEN: If the member for Invercargill would just listen he would learn that neither the Government nor the Opposition has a policy on the Bill. NORMAN JONES: The Labour Party has one. It's in favour of it. MICHAEL CULLEN: It is absolutely inappropriate for an amendment to be moved that undermines the very basis of conscience voting. I remind the member for Napier that at least twice I have stood up before a Labour Party conference and supported his right to a conscience vote on an issue on which most of the delegates, including myself, took an opposing view to the one he took. GEOFF BRAYBROOKE: That's right. MICHAEL CULLEN: I believe that members have a right to a conscience vote on certain moral issues, but the amendment moved by the member for Invercargill undermines the basis of that conscience vote, because it states, that the Government should have a position in opposition to the Bill. NORMAN JONES: So it should. MICHAEL CULLEN: The Government should not be for or against the Bill. I do not question the integrity of the 7,700 people it is claimed signed the petition in my electorate. Some of them have some very strange connections, but I know that most of them are honourable and decent voters, and many of them belong to my own Labour Party branches. My electorate is a rather conservative electorate, but that is not the point. The point is that the consciences of members should not be open to barter. On this kind of issue members must look inside themselves without the aid of Whips and decide what is right. When they have decided what they think is right they have the responsibility to vote accordingly. The only action that can trammel that freedom-and it is a very precious freedom-is a commitment to their electorates to abide by a poll taken on a specific issue. Like many members I have come to resent the quite improper pressure that has been brought to bear from both extreme sides of this argument. Attempts have been made to blackmail members in terms of votes at the next election and in terms of certain connections, and to turn members into puppets. I accept the fact that the member for Invercargill opposes the Bill, and I respect his right to oppose it. I do not agree with him, but I acknowledge that he is utterly sincere in his views. However, he should not come to the House and say that a petition on the Bill should receive favourable consideration from the Government. That is wrong, and undermines his own case, to which the member for Napier, the member for Southern Maori, and other Government members will give their support. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON (Papakura): The member for St. Kilda, like the proponents of the Bill and the opponents of the petition, protests too much. I have not heard the member for St. Kilda so much on the defensive as he was during the last 5 minutes. His only defence was to say that the Government does not have a policy on the issue. If that is correct, why was the Bill introduced by the member for Wellington Central, the Junior Government Whip? The member for St. Kilda knows the long established conventions that, although they do not prohibit such action in a technical sense, do, by custom and form, frown upon such a divisive measure being introduced by a Whip, whether a senior Whip or a junior Whip. For him to say that the member for Napier is opposed to the Bill and that therefore the Government does not have a formal position on the matter is to protest too much. He said that his electorate was conservative. The base of his political support in his electorate is the Castle Street branch, which includes the university. I repeat that the member does protest far too much. If he is right, why is it that so many of his colleagues, particularly the Wellington based members, have had polls in their electorates and, having had those polls, say: “But of course my electorate supports me in this stand, supports the Bill allowing homosexual activities amongst young people of 16.” Where is the evidence on the polls they have conducted in their electorates? Have they been tabled in the House? How genuine were the surveys in the electorates of the member for Ohariu, the member for Miramar, and the member for East Cape, which moved one way, another way, and then came back again? Those polls would not hold a candle to a petition from people who have common sense, are practical, and hold strong views on matters of this kind. To say that a petition of unprecedented numbers and magnitude-nearly 1,000,000 signatures-does not count in the councils of this country is manifest nonsense. That is why the member for St. Kilda protests too much. For the Deputy Prime Minister, the great apostle of constitutional purity, to sit there and listen to it all and say, " Well, of course, I shall vote for this, and the petition means nothing”, and to be a member of a Government that says that petitioning Parliament on the issue is not an exercise the House should listen to, is an outstanding example of his double standards in matters of this kind. We have not had consensus in the country since his Government came to power, and to ignore the genuine voice of the people expressed in this manner is wrong. I have not counted the number of people from my own electorate who signed. I have not had to; I know what they think. The House divided on the question, That the amendment be agreed to. Ayes 34 Angus, Austin, H. N.; Austin, W. R.; Banks; Birch; Bolger; Cooper; Cox; Falloon; Friedlander; Gerard; Gray; Kidd; Knapp; Lee; Luxton; McClay; McKinnon; McLay; McTigue; Marshall, D. W. A.; Maxwell, R. F. H.; Morrison; Muldoon; Peters; Smith; Storey; Talbot; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Townshend; Wellington; Young, T. J. Tellers: Braybrooke; Jones. Noes 39 Anderton; Austin, M. E.; Boorman; Burke; Butcher; Clark; Colman; Cullen; de Cleene; Dillon; Douglas; Dunne; Fraser, Gair; Goff; Gregory; Hercus; Hunt; Jeffries; Keall; King; Matthewson; Maxwell, R. K.; Neilson; Northey; O'Flynn; O'Regan; Palmer; Prebble; Richardson; Shields; Shirley; Sutton, J. R.; Terris; Upton; Wetere; Woollaston. Tellers: Mallard; Wilde. Majority against: 5 Amendment negatived. Motion agreed to.

IRN: 3856
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_homosexual_law_reform_bill_second_reading_continued_23_october_1985.html
TITLE: Homosexual Law Reform Bill - second reading continued (23 October 1985)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 16 October 1985
YEAR: 1985
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 23 October 1985, New Zealand Parliament. Debate resumed from 16 October 1985. SPEAKER: I shall check which member was speaking when the matter was adjourned last week. Mrs Hercus. JOHN BANKS (Whangarei): I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You were about to say who was speaking when the House rose. Whom did you say it was? SPEAKER: I have called the Hon. Mrs Hercus, and the reason for that is that, on the information available to me, I am trying to arrange the debate so that members speak alternately for and against the Bill. ANN HERCUS (Minister of Social Welfare): Before I was elected to the House in 1978 I made a commitment to my electorate that, if elected, I would hold a poll or referendum within my electorate on each of the four conscience issues if they should arise, and provided no such conscience issue moved so quickly through the House that a referendum was physically impossible to arrange. That was a hard commitment for me to make to my electorate. I have strongly held views on each of the four conscience issues. I had in 1978, and still have equally, a strong sense of being a representative of my electorate. I wanted to ensure that the voters of Lyttelton had an opportunity to express their views, and so to guide me. My decision to hold a referendum to guide me about the electorate's opinion on a conscience issue. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek clarification. A week ago I was speaking in the debate. Am I not entitled to conclude my speech? Would you clarify the ruling you made 30 minutes ago? SPEAKER: I draw it to members' attention that the Journals of the House of Representatives record that the leave of the House was granted to the member for Papakura to register his vote on the Homosexual Law Reform Bill, which is order of the day No. 1 for private members' Bills. The House moved that the member for Papakura be suspended from the service of the House, and that is the position. I presume that the member understands the motion that was passed. DON MCKINNON: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek clarification. The member for Whangarei asked you which member was speaking when the House rose last after debating the Bill. You said that you were still trying to determine the issue. Can it be clarified whether the member for Papakura was speaking when the House adjourned last Wednesday? SPEAKER: Yes, he was, but because of the motion that has been passed the House may no longer take notice of the member for Papakura; but he may still vote. DON MCKINNON: I raise a further point of order, Mr Speaker. I request that you take the leave of the House to allow the member for Papakura to conclude the speech he was making last Wednesday. SPEAKER: That would be an extraordinary concession, as the member for Papakura had finished his speech at the time of the conclusion of the debate. WINSTON PETERS: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker, relating to the concession the House has given to the member for Papakura enabling him to register his vote. I understand that members can register their vote in two ways: by being in the lobby, or, usually, by voice in the House. Does that mean that the member for Papakura is entitled to be in the House in accordance with the motion passed by the House, or have you given it the interpretation that he must remain in the lobby? SPEAKER: There is no difficulty about the matter. The member may return to the House when the question is put, but that does not entitle him to be present in the House at any other time. The House has granted the member leave to vote. That leave is absolute and total as far as voting is concerned, but it does not affect any other procedure. I have made it clear that the member is entitled to be heard on a vote on the voices, and he is also entitled to vote in the lobby. WINSTON PETERS: I raise a further point of order, Mr Speaker. Does that mean my colleague will be denied the right to return to the House on a vote that the question be put? SPEAKER: That was not granted by the leave of the House. Leave was granted solely that the member might vote on order of the day No. 1 for private members' Bills. Hon. ANN HERCUS: I was saying that I have a contract with the people of my electorate to hold a referendum. I do not give up my own views; I choose to share my conscience vote in Parliament with those who sent me here to be their representative. Therefore I am speaking in the debate tonight as the member for Lyttelton. Later in the debate I shall speak as the Minister of Police. It is beyond my resources to hold a poll as a secret ballot if a general election is held. However, I have done my best to ensure that every voter in the Lyttelton electorate has had a fair opportunity to participate in this referendum, and I have done my best to ensure that it has been done by a means whereby their opinions remained confidential to them. There is a particular reason for that. I am the Minister of Police, and in the past few months I have received anonymous letters from people who have identified themselves as coming from my electorate but who did not wish to sign their names because they were afraid of the consequences of admitting to a Minister of Police that they were homosexual. Therefore there was, and is, a compelling reason for a secret ballot to be held in my electorate. For that reason I had two ballot papers delivered to each house with no requirement for them to be annotated with a name or address. A mechanism was provided for more ballot papers to be acquired if there were more than two voters in a particular household. Such a system is obviously open to some abuse, so I took several steps to inhibit that. First, the ballot paper was printed in an ink colour that could not be reproduced or xeroxed. Secondly, extra ballot papers were made available only after a roll check. Thirdly, assuming that a single person in a household might fill in both the ballot papers delivered, it would be statistically likely that those on either side of the issue would abuse the system in the same manner and even each other out. As it was, enough ballot papers were returned with only one of the two connected ballots filled in to convince me that the voters of the Lyttelton electorate were fairly honest. Out of the 25,000 ballot papers distributed or requested, 3731 were returned, 13 of which were invalid, mainly because no voting was recorded in any way on those papers, only obscenities. Thus, 3718 valid ballot papers were returned. The primary purpose of the Bill is decriminalisation of the law to remove criminal sanctions against homosexual acts between consenting adults. The first question asked was therefore the central one: “Do you support a change in the law to remove criminal sanctions against consenting homosexual acts? Yes or no.” Of the valid replies, 1982 voters stated yes, and 1736 stated no. On the basis of nearly 4000 returns, a majority of 53. 3 percent of the Lyttelton electorate supported decriminalisation and 46. 7 percent did not. It may be fairly said that the vote was evenly divided in my electorate. Taking account of the majority view expressed in my electorate, I intend to vote for the removal of criminal sanctions against consenting homosexual acts. There is an additional interesting element that should be noted. The Hay petition against the Bill claimed that 5139 people in the Lyttelton electorate had signed that petition. I and a team of helpers went to a great deal of trouble to search every one of the boxes containing the petition sheets presented to Parliament, and then to xerox every sheet I could find with a Lyttelton address on it. I could only find 1500 names, not 5139. I then had those names and addresses checked: only 1300 of them were on the Lyttelton roll or had been added to the roll since it was last published. The return from my own referendum of those who opposed the Bill was 1736. Therefore I think I can reasonably speculate that the Hay petition seems somehow to have totally overrepresented and misrepresented the numbers of those opposed to the Bill who live in the Lyttelton electorate. I asked two supplementary questions on the ballot paper flowing from the central question of decriminalisation. One related to the age of consent, and the other to the change in the Human Rights Commission Act to include sexual orientation amongst the grounds on which it would be unlawful to discriminate. As those who did not support decriminalisation made it very clear to me in notes that they did not support any age of consent whatsoever, I turned to the views of those who supported decriminalisation. The referendum showed that 75 percent of those who support decriminalisation support the age of 16 as the age of consent, and 25 percent support other ages. As I have said, the third question related to the amendment to the Human Rights Commission Act. Of those who supported decriminalisation, 85 percent also supported that change. On the basis of the Lyttelton referendum the majority supported decriminalisation, and, of those, there was majority support for the age of consent to be 16 years, and for a change to the Act to prevent discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation. My personal views coincide exactly. I am a Christian and a family woman. My God is not punitive or oppressive; my church submits that the present law and attitudes in society are harmful to the individual who has a homosexual orientation, since they force him to deny his sexuality as a person and an integral part of his identity as a person. The values of a loving New Testament God are reflected in an acceptance of homosexuals in a non-judgmental manner as fellow citizens equal under the law. I am a family woman and homosexuals are part of families. I support strong, loving, and tolerant family life in which every child is loved and accepted for what he or she is - and adults are children of parents. As a law student in jurisprudence, I remember lectures studying the question of distinguishing morals from law. John Stuart Mill asserted the view, reasserted much later by the British Wolfenden report on homosexuality, that legal coercion-the weight of the criminal law - can be justified only for the purpose of preventing harm to others. The Bill makes it very clear that a sexual act between males, to which one party does not consent, is a crime. The Bill also provides that any homosexual act with anyone under the age of 16 years remains a crime, as is now the case with heterosexual acts. In those circumstances criminal penalties - legal coercion-are justified for the purpose of preventing harm to others. Law and morality are overlapping circles. Morality condemns murder, as does the law. Morality may condemn adultery; the law does not. As lawmakers, we have the responsibility to decide not where morality lies but where the law should lie. In my own opinion the criminal law has no place in the sexual behaviour either of men or of women when there is consent between two caring partners. Hon. PETER TAPSELL (Minister of Internal Affairs): I commend my colleague the member for Wellington Central for her courage and tenacity in promoting the Bill . I know how sincerely and deeply she feels about it, and we all know the tension she has faced during these past few months. At the same time I want to mention those people who, feeling equally strongly that the Bill should not proceed, have gone to tremendous lengths - some would say inordinate lengths - to prevent its passage. Despite the tremendous publicity the Bill has aroused throughout the country, the general public is poorly informed about its effects. The member for North Shore summed the matter up clearly. He said there were two parts to the Bill: the first part modifies the Crimes Act; the second modifies the human rights legislation. In the first part there are two essential changes. The first is to remove or modify section 142 of the Crimes Act, which makes sodomy and certain indecent acts illegal. The second part relates to the age of consent, and the first part in the second part of the Bill - it sounds peculiar, but it is so-relates to the human rights legislation and would provide that those persons - whatever their sexual orientation-enjoy the protection of the human rights legislation. I will comment on one or two matters that have arisen during the debate before going to the first part of the first part of the Bill, which modifying section 142 of the Crimes Act, making sodomy between consenting adults legal. That is the crucial element of the Bill; the other two sections are in the main consequent upon the first part, which I will go back to shortly. I make it clear that what I have to say is in no way condemnatory of either of the two major groups or of any other member who has spoken. First, I want to mention the polls. If the polls have shown nothing else they have shown how unsuccessful and how inaccurate that method is in determining the wishes of the majority of an electorate. For example, a member might state his or her own view publicly and at length, and then seek the electorate view. One would have been surprised to find that an unbiased opinion was obtained in that way. More important, the essential feature is the question that was asked. If, for example, the question had asked “Do you believe that homosexuals are at present persecuted and that that ought to change?"-and many would say that that was the effect of the Bill-I think the answer would have been in support of the Bill. Equally, if the question had asked, “Do you believe that sodomy between consenting adults ought to be condoned by the law?" I think the change might very well have been to the alternative. Many people put forward the view that they would support part I of the Bill-making sodomy legal on the grounds that it was not abnormal, with no danger to the participant or to anyone else - but they could not bring themselves to support the other two changes. If sodomy is normal, and no danger to the person or to anyone else, what justification is there for making the age of consent for homosexuals different from that for heterosexuals? If a homosexual is not to break the law, what good grounds are there for denying that person the protection of the human rights legislation? Someone said-and it was the major part of the argument - that sending homosexuals to jail is clearly a mistake and so it is. If that is so, why are we sending to jail those homosexuals who would carry out sodomy in public places, or, for that matter, why are we sending anyone to jail? As an aside, my own view is that no one ought to go to jail apart from those who are a threat to public safety, or who persistently refuse to take part in community rehabilitation. Several people said that other countries have already passed similar law and that New Zealand has lagged in some way, yet I heard not one shred of evidence that any one of those countries was the better as a result of the change. Many people said it was unreasonable that lesbians - homosexual women-should be treated differently from male homosexuals. It seems to me that anyone with the meanest intelligence and no more than a passing knowledge of human physiognomy would see there is a very real difference that cannot be denied. I want to draw attention to the almost pitiful reliance on so-called expert witnesses, particularly on lawyers or doctors. There is an almost craven obeisance to medical evidence. How often in select committees have we heard a person say, “I am a doctor of 2 years' standing; this is my view”, and then hear that person recount the most ridiculous rubbish. I was a consultant surgeon for nearly 30 years. In the early part of my career I did a good deal of surgery, some of which I now know was at best worthless, some of which was harmful, yet at the time it was backed by irrefutable evidence and we did it with the best of intentions. Expert medical witnesses are a very useful tool in the hands of those who know something about the subject, but a fearful weapon in the hands of those who do not know a lot about it or are determined to use it to support their own case. The medical evidence presented by the Department of Health was an example. I read that evidence. Many people put forward a view saying that it was from the Department of Health, but it was not. I want to come back to the essence - that relating to Part 1 of the Bill, concerning whether sodomy and certain indecent acts ought to be condoned by the law. In general, our law is concerned with a set of rules determining the use of force by the State - those occasions on which the State ought to interfere in the activities of private persons in the interests of the majority. It should be noted that we are not concerned with whether sodomy is good or bad, and still less with whether it is right or wrong; we are concerned with whether it should be condoned by the law. That is the difference. All the actions of the human race have been promoted by passions, impulses, and desires. It may well be said that a person acting on the spur of the moment could be forgiven for some action the majority would not condone, but there is no similar case to be made for the person carrying out an action that he or she has had time to consider. Indeed, the one feature that distinguishes us from all other animals is our capacity for conscious discretion and conscious determination. It may well be said-and some have said it - that sodomy is a normal variant. Many human desires are physiological and strong, but second only to that of self-preservation is procreation - the sexual drive. It is well known to us that complex physiological reactions such as the sexual drive are bound to go awry at times-(Interruption.) Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER: Before the member proceeds it should be made clear to people in the public gallery that they are not participants in the debate, and they are not entitled to intervene in the debate by verbal or other means. I hope I have made myself clear, and that members of the public will not take the matter to the point at which more appropriate action will have to be taken. Hon. PETER TAPSELL: Human activity is governed by passions, and second only to the drive for self-preservation is that for procreation-sexual procreation. It runs awry at times, and we do know that the sexual reaction can run awry to the extent of progressing to events of shuddering aversion that are clearly abnormal in any sense. The law may not have any part in private morality, but clearly it has a part in civic morality. It seems unreasonable to me to say that the law is concerned simply with the protection of property and the person, but has no action in civic morality. It seems quite clear to me that it does. It seems to me that the law ought to have some say in whether sodomy is condoned, and, moreover, that persons ought to abide by the law in some way. I come to my own particular concerns about the Bill, which are three. In the first instance, whatever happens to the Bill - whether it is passed or whether it fails, and it will probably be passed - I wonder what people expect of the change. What will the change do? My own view is that it will make no difference to anyone, or very little. I think it will be a 9-day wonder, because the sanction against homosexual acts of severity-sodomy-is not the law. The sanction against such acts is public obloquy and that will not change. The mother who discovers suddenly that her son is a homosexual will still feel that chill from now to the end of time. The public obloquy will not change. The second point I want to make - and it would be wrong to leave the debate without mentioning it - is the disease of AIDS: the acquired immune deficiency syndrome. My view is that there will be a quite severe epidemic of AIDS. That has been the problem overseas, and I do not think there is any reason it will not be the case here. Whatever the grounds for saying that AIDS is a heterosexual disease in other countries, one certainly could be forgiven for believing that it is still very much a homosexual disease in New Zealand. Regretfully, we are in the position we were in with cigarette smoking about 10 or 15 years ago, when it was believed that we could conquer an epidemic by using filter tips, which would in some way ameliorate the carcinogenic effect of cigarette smoke. We know now that the one way to prevent the carcinogenic effect of cigarette smoke is not to smoke. That needs to be made clear to everyone. There is some wild belief throughout New Zealand that we will conquer the epidemic of AIDS with the provision of contraceptives. That will prove to be false, and we will regret it. The last point I want to make is that throughout history human societies have set a standard for themselves. Some acts have been enjoined, some acts have been forbidden, some acts have been applauded, and some acts have been abhorred. Human reaction to any particular act has changed to a remarkable degree in the course of time towards the acceptance of an act, and away from the acceptance of an act. It has not been, as we would think, a gentle oscillation such as that of a pendulum, but a gradual and consistent movement away from the accepted norm of the day - always probing at the borders, always going beyond what is generally accepted, always going beyond until the swing-back eventually comes. It is not a smooth swing-back; it is often sudden, and sometimes savage. As humans, we can see ancient history a lot more evenly than recent history. We can all consider the classical Greeks or the industrial Italians, and see the light. We can all see the hills in the distance, but none of us can see the ground just in front of us. We have forgotten that in this century, in the most sophisticated, civilised country in the world, we saw just that - a gradual move away from the standards until there was a sudden reversal. It is true that, in the main, the reversal was due to economic changes, but it affected the middle classes and the upper classes, who were not dependent on economic changes. It was due to a backlash against deteriorating moral standards. Hitler and his group depended on the view of the middle classes. The objection of the middle classes was not economic; it was an objection to the sudden loss of the standards of the people. Hitler was voted into power, and, indeed, he retained the majority support of the German people right up to within months of his final collapse. Among the middle classes and the upper classes the support resulted not from the economic change but from the fear that public standards were declining. It is my belief that the New Zealand public is getting close to the stage at which the change will come. I regret it. I hope it does not occur, but I feel the cold winds of history drawing closer to us. I think there is a feeling - and often the morality of homosexuality will be unreasonably blamed for it-of lack of respect for the law, with murder, rape, beatings and bashings, the more far-out pressures of the feminist movement, and the more violent activists in the Maori movement, along with the change in morality and the shift away from the standards of the day. There will be a change, and when it comes those who are responsible will not be solely those who lead the march back, but, in part, those who, in the decade earlier, laid the grounds that made it inevitable. I did not have the facilities to carry out a poll in my electorate, and if I had I believe my electors would have had sufficient good sense to put it in the fire. But I have been around the electorate, and have spoken to people on marae and at meetings. I believe that I could fairly accurately sum up their feelings - as accurately as some of the polls I have heard about. They would not want homosexuals to be persecuted. They would not want sodomy to be condoned by the law. They would want the individual to retain the right to decide whether to employ or provide accommodation for a person whom they considered to be homosexual. That sets out very clearly the view of my electorate. It is also my own view, and I will vote accordingly. MAURICE MCTIGUE (Timaru): This is a matter of conscience, and, as such, members have to decide whether it is right or whether it is wrong to decriminalise the act of sodomy. It is not a matter of persecuting homosexuals but of dealing with a physical fact, and, in dealing with that physical fact, the law of this nation has seen fit to proscribe that activity as being contrary to the best interests of society as a whole. For all members it is time to be counted. We must exercise the standards and values that are part of our nature. Are not all the matters we refer to in the House matters of conscience? Should we not always exercise those standards and values we have been brought up with? It has been said that we should keep God's law and man's law separate, but is most of the law we pass here not part of God's law as a whole, and do we not make an appeal to God at the beginning of each day before we sit down in the Chamber to consider the affairs of the nation? It is not a time for aggressive rhetoric, because aggression enthuses those who support one on an issue such as this, antagonises those who oppose one, and tends to alienate those one needs to convince, to win one's cause. The value judgments I have used to form my opinion on the issue are based on my life experiences, my family background, the kind of family I live in, the kind of things my parents and brothers and sisters and the rest of my family and community around me taught me to be the basis for exercising my judgment, and the education I received. Emerson once described education as the sum total of our experience. That is crucial to the argument before us. In my opinion, and according to the evidence of experts that I have been able to glean information from, homosexuality is not a condition someone is born with, such as a club foot. It is not a hereditary or genetic condition; it is a result of conditioning. Perhaps that conditioning is the result of bad family experiences. Perhaps it is the result of peer pressure. Perhaps it is the result of the environment in which a person is nurtured, but, in my opinion, it is conclusively a learnt experience and is a learnt condition. As a learnt condition it can be dealt with by the standards and the values we have lived; by the standards and values that teach us self-discipline in other areas; by the standards and values that teach us to exercise the judgment of right or wrong in our dealings with other people. It is a learnt, deviant activity. It is an aberration of normal sexual behaviour. Many people are trying to convince us that it is just different sexual behaviour. It is not different sexual behaviour. As the speaker before me said, one of the strongest emotions that mankind experiences is the emotion to procreate, and normal sexual behaviour is the fulfilment of that emotion to procreate. The perpetuation of the species is instilled in that emotion to procreate. It goes back many thousands of years, and has meant that the species has been able to sustain all kinds of shocks during that time. The cult of humanism says that if something is pleasurable why not do it; it is only an alternative expression of sexuality. I totally reject that view, because if we were to use that code for the determination of our lives, our values, and our laws, we could apply it to all kinds of deviant behaviour, and that would be totally unacceptable. The codes of society have always regulated and disciplined the exercise of sexuality. We have laws that proscribe sex with a heterosexual partner before the age of 16, and we accept those laws. We have laws that proscribe incestuous relationships, and we accept those laws. Often when both participants agree that the activity will take place it is no doubt pleasurable, yet we proscribe it by law. Why should we now decide that homosexuality is an acceptable demand of the flesh? Some people describe it as an alternative expression of sexuality. I cannot and will not accept that. Homosexuality is the total rejection of the normal love patterns between man and wife that lead to procreation and bring the family into being. The family is the cornerstone of our society. Anything that brings about the degeneration of the family unit will ultimately bring about the degeneration of society as a whole. For those reasons members should be prepared to act, as have lawmakers before us, 10 ensure that the fabric of society is not torn apart. If we allow that to happen, not only will we see the degeneration of the family, but we will see degeneration in the form of violence among members of society; we will see degeneration in the home and family life that is provided for the children of those families; and we will see degeneration in all the values that have gone to make this a very pleasant nation in which to live. If one accepted the cult of humanism, what else would one have to accept? If one accepted the concept that homosexuality is an alternative expression of sexuality, one would have to accept that the same principle applied to sadism, to bestiality, to prostitution, to euthanasia, and to incest. There is a time and place for society, through its lawmakers, to say “Stop”. On this issue society has given just that direction: 830,000 people have said that. Many people will try to discredit the petition, but even if they discredit one-fifth of the signatures 500,000 people will still have said “No”, clearly and distinctly. No other issue in the history of this nation has brought people forward voluntarily in such numbers to express their determination. I have not polled the people in my electorate. At the time of the by-election I told them that they should accept me with my standards and my values, and that they could expect me to use those standards and values in exercising my judgment on their behalf as their representative in Parliament. That is what I intend to do today. My values are not negotiable. They will not be swayed. However, 15059 people in my electorate signed the petition. During the election campaign the Timaru Herald conducted several polls, and it is interesting to note the comments that were made in response to some of the questions. A poll conducted by the Timaru Herald on Wednesday, 12 June 1985, showed that moral issues and the state of the economy remained the issues that most concerned Timaru voters in the lead-up to the by-election. They remained the leading issues in the latest Timaru Herald poll conducted 2 weeks ago. Of the 600 people polled, 21. 8 percent said that moral issues were particularly important issues in voting. Among the intending National voters, moral issues were identified as the most important, followed by the state of the economy, taxation, inflation, and the cost of living. Labour voters identified moral issues as the most important, followed by the state of the economy, unemployment, and the cost of living. Moral issues and taxation were of most concern to those who intended to vote for the former Social Credit Party. So it went, across the spectrum of the parties. The supporters of all political parties were polled across the electorate, and, regardless of their political affiliation, they all expressed their concern about the Bill and their desire for a representative who would take their concerns to Parliament. There is an additional provision to the Bill that I find totally repugnant - that is, the provision that brings the legislation under the protection of the Human Rights Commission Act. It is, I believe, incredibly important that the people of the nation should have the right to have their children educated in a climate in which they can determine the morality to be taught. The recent passage through Parliament of the Education Amendment Bill fills me with grave concern that the provisions under the human rights legislation attached to that legislation would mean that, when teaching sexuality in schools, teachers would be obliged by law to teach alternative sexuality-homosexuality and lesbianism-on an equal basis. Hon. Members: That's not true. MAURICE MCTIGUE: To me that is totally repulsive, and it is one of the main reasons I would never be prepared to accept this provision. I also want to preserve for all time the ability to determine whether the person I employ as a vestryman in a church, a dormitory master in a school, a nurse, a policeman, or a person in any other role that comes into constant contact with the public, would not be able to exploit people by means of aberrant sexual behaviour. I am not prepared to move from that position. The provision is abhorrent to me, and it is most important for the protection of the life-styles of young people that that is not forced upon us. Many issues will be canvassed during the debate. Many prejudices will be aired. Many people will find the decision made by Parliament - whatever it may be-quite unacceptable. In many instances those people have brought their considerations to Parliament with the best of intent, but many of them have been gravely misguided. The experience of ancient history has taught that society as a whole begins to degenerate as soon as relaxation of its moral standards is allowed. If we sanction the Bill and legalise the act of sodomy we will begin that process of degeneration. There are so many problems within society now that I do not believe we can place another problem on its shoulders. I believe that the homosexual within the community is a predatory being. The investigations I have conducted personally indicate to me that a homosexual will have a multitude of partners during his lifetime. TREVOR MALLARD: It sounds like an interesting experiment! MAURICE MCTIGUE: It may well be an interesting experiment for that member, I am pleased to say that it will never be an interesting experiment for me. The protection of the nation is dependent upon the passage of the Bill. I urge my colleagues in the House to accept the importance of the Bill and to give it the consideration it deserves; not to be swayed by the feelings that might have been engendered by colleagues who have tried to force them to give it favourable consideration; not to be swayed by the vocal people who have tried in recent weeks to persuade good people to change their attitudes. I believe that members must take a stand now for the protection of the moral fibre of society. That is the opportunity that Parliament has. Hon. FRANK O'FLYNN (Minister of State): For the second time in only a few weeks the House is confronted with a private member's Bill to which no party will be applying its Whips but on which all members will be free to vote as they wish, some of them according to polls, and some according to their conscientious view of the matter. In those circumstances I consider it necessary to give a brief explanation of my views and the way in which I intend to vote, but there are one or two preliminary things that ought to be said. The first-and I think I said the same kind of thing to the member for Waitotara, formerly the member for Egmont, 10 years ago-is that I congratulate the member for Wellington Central on the courage she has displayed in producing and promoting the Bill. I was here when the member for Waitotara introduced his Bill, and I have also seen other private members' Bills; I know what happens to members who are in the eye of the storm. My second point was illustrated by the first two speeches this evening. Members heard two eloquent, telling speeches giving contradictory points of view. To some extent that indicates the difficulty dealing with the matter. As is usual in these circumstances, the debate has done the House considerable credit in the main. I thought some of the speeches contained much wisdom, even when I did not agree with the end result. There have been many prophecies - some of them gloomy, and, I hope, wrong. There have been many shrewd observations about human nature, and those who have listened to the debate would have learnt something, although they might not be entirely sure what it had to do with the Bill. Usually I try to keep my moral views to myself - unlike some of the opponents of the Bill, I regret to say, or, indeed, some of its supporters, who have tried to shove their moral views down other people's throats and have sometimes been not very scrupulous about the way in which they have dealt with them. I actually hold a reasonably unemotional and pragmatic view, but I shall start by saying what my view about the problem really is. I regard homosexual conduct as wrong, immoral, and sinful - to use a word that is out of fashion because it expresses a moral judgment, and that is not popular. It is impossible to argue that such acts are either normal or natural for man. That conclusion is self-evident, because, as has been pointed out already this evening, mankind's instinctive sexual urge - perhaps the strongest, or at any rate the second strongest after self-preservation is linked to the act of procreation, and that, of course, is necessary for the perpetuation of the race - as it is for all living creatures. However, I do not propose to pursue those moral problems any further, because the Bill does not raise them. The question raised by the Bill is not whether that kind of conduct is normal or abnormal, moral or immoral, but whether it should continue to be criminal. As another speaker pointed out earlier this evening, it is not the purpose of criminal law to condemn everything that is immoral, and still less must it condemn everything that is abnormal. Some conduct that is immoral or abnormal is also criminal, but some, indeed much, is not disapproved of by the criminal law. It is equally clear to me, and I am glad to say to most members of the House, that in exercising a conscience vote a member ought not to give rein to his personal opinions or what some members might think are his personal prejudices. He ought to exercise his vote in the way he thinks is best for society. That view was expressed quite well by the member for North Shore. When the member for Waitotara, previously the member for Egmont, introduced his Bill 10 years ago I said that, after giving serious thought to whether this sort of conduct ought to continue to be criminal, I reached the conclusion on balance that it ought not to, and I still believe that. I did not reach that conclusion either lightly or easily, and I am certainly not persuaded that large numbers of people are being deprived by the present law of some right to sexual expression, but that is a matter I shall discuss very briefly when I come to Part II. I shall concentrate first on Part I. There are three quite narrow and somewhat pragmatic grounds on which I reached the conclusion that homosexual acts between consenting males of a proper age - and I choose that expression carefully-should no longer be criminal. First, I know, and experience in legal practice serves to confirm it, that for many years criminal proceedings have hardly ever been taken in the circumstances to which the Bill is mainly directed - acts by consenting adults of full age in private. Secondly, I know, and again my own experience in legal practice confirms it, that tremendous and dangerous pressures are exerted on male homosexuals under the present law and that those pressures lead to all kinds of objectionable activity and frequently to serious crimes such as blackmail. I looked up the speeches I made on the Bill 10 years ago and I see that during the second reading debate I mentioned that several charges of murder had arisen not long before that debate - if not out of homosexual conduct itself, at least in a setting of homosexual relations. Thirdly, in the light of my experience of the operation of the law, I believe that the passing of the Bill will eliminate the evils to which I have just referred, without increasing the risk of the spread of what I regard as immoral conduct. In 1975 I chose to abstain altogether from voting on the Bill, because of the concern I felt at that time about the behaviour, actions, and statements of some of its over-enthusiastic supporters. They were trying, as indeed they are now, to say that this is a permissible alternative life-style, or even that it is a good life-style. They were threatening to encourage and spread it as far as they could. It was that kind of conduct that actually persuaded me in the end that the only course available to me was to decline to vote. The conduct of the supporters of the Bill has been much the same this time, and even worse in a way. This time they have been joined in that by many of the opponents of the Bill, and their conduct has been rather worse. There has been gross intolerance on both sides, shouting down of the opinions of others, personal insults, and objectionable forms of pressure by both lobby groups. In 1975, as a result of electoral misfortune, I had to return to the practice of the law, and soon afterwards one case in which I was professionally involved illustrated for me once and for all the gravity of the pressures to which homosexuals are subject under the present law. That incident persuaded me in one hit that reform of the law was necessary in the public interest. I am sorry to have to say that the case concerned also showed how very badly some members of the police service treated homosexuals, at least at that time. It was clear from the evidence that they were harassed beyond belief in the street and elsewhere, simply because they were homosexuals. The case itself concerned disciplinary action against a policeman, and that at least showed that the Police Department management was opposed to such conduct. The evidence was an absolute object lesson to me. Without going into the details, I was shocked at what was revealed at the hearing. It is for that reason that I shall support Part I of the Bill in principle, though I do that rather as one choosing the lesser of two evils, or supporting without too much enthusiasm a legal reform that seems to me to be justified in the imperfect world we live in. The way I vote may in the end depend on the age that is decided upon. It is 16 in the Bill. I would prefer 20, although I am prepared to go along with 18. If that is defeated I have an anxious question in front of me and I shall not reveal at present what the answer may be. In fact, I have not actually determined that. I may be loath to see the reform defeated. I shall leave that there and go on to Part II, which is a different matter. It seeks to forbid discrimination against any person on the grounds of sexual orientation. If it is passed it will become impossible to treat homosexuals differently in almost any way because of their homosexuality. The proponents of the reform say it is unjust that they should be treated differently. They say that homosexuals have a basic or a fundamental human right to act as they do. Some even say - as they did 10 years ago - that homosexual liaisons are a valid alternative life-style. I am totally unable to agree with claims like that. One speaker earlier this evening said that if that kind of conduct is normal it might be appropriate to pass the amendment to the Human Rights Act. I have already said that in my view homosexual acts between males - which is what we are dealing with - are unnatural and abnormal, and I cannot see that there can possibly be anything that could be described as a basic or fundamental human right to act in a manner unnatural to man. Holding the view of homosexual acts that I do, it is quite impossible for me to vote for Part II of the Bill. I also believe that people who find homosexual acts totally repugnant-as I do - are entitled to shun homosexuals if they want to do so. I do not think that a person letting a part of a building-particularly if he lives in it himself - should be obliged to accept a homosexual as a tenant. I do not think that an employer ought to be bound to accept homosexual employees, at least when he is going to come into personal contact with them. There might be other examples, too. It is possible that some forms of discrimination practised by people against homosexuals are unnecessary and indefensible and might even be cruel in some instances. If that part of the Bill were directed solely at them I might consider supporting it. That would be quite different from what is in front of us, which is an amendment asserting that the right to treat homosexuals in any way differently ought to be totally withdrawn. I am unable to agree with that proposition and I shall vote against it. Finally, I tell the House that if the Bill receives its second reading I shall introduce provisions to preserve the law at present administered on this topic in the armed forces. An amendment to the Bill will be necessary in Part II, but it may be possible to preserve the present military and disciplinary law relating to homosexual acts without an amendment to Part I. Those matters are still under consideration and can be dealt with in the Committee stage. In short, I am in favour of Part I in principle, but I am having difficulties in the way I have indicated with the age, and I am totally opposed to Part II. BILL DILLON (Hamilton East): The Bill has been previously described as decriminalising or legalising homosexuality. Therein lies the nub of the difficulty of dealing with the Bill. I believe it is important to distinguish between legality and morality. One of the earlier speakers this evening suggested that the kind of answer one received depended on how the question was raised. If a petition opposing the legalisation of homosexuality is circulated, a majority is likely to accept that viewpoint. However, if the same petition were to be circulated, wanting to know how many supported the decriminalisation of homosexuality, probably the same kind of majority would support the petition. Sodomy used to be dealt with in the ecclesiastical courts; so did adultery. I believe that that is where it should be returned, particularly as covered in the Bill in relation to adult consenting males in private. I appear to be the third consecutive practising Catholic to speak on the Bill, and I have the third different viewpoint. Right at the outset I say that I hold no brief for homosexuality. I consider it contrary to Christian moral standards, but I have a sympathy for the plight of homosexuals. I have had the advantage of chairing and being on the committee that dealt with the submissions on the Bill, and, consequently, hearing more than 1200 submissions and sighting the material made available to that committee. I have read letters both for and against the Bill. I have received some letters that horrified me, and some that gave me great heart and support. Medical and scientific research do not appear to have advanced from the findings of the Kinsey report in 1948. That report determined that there was a continuum of sexuality of a grade of 1:6. Later research during 1981 supported and updated those findings, but the continuum of 1:6 is still relevant. At one extreme is the person who is an outright homosexual, while at the other extreme is the person who is an outright heterosexual. It has been concluded that between 5 percent and 10 percent are at the homosexual end, their orientation being established probably before the age of 5 years. Consequently, we are dealing with a group in our community of up to 10 percent who, like those who are lefthanded, cannot - are unable to - avoid their sexual orientation. Given that, we then take the minority that we are being asked to consider when dealing with the Bill. I believe it is important that that be considered as a starting-point. No doubt, in the middle area between the grades of 1:6 there are many who can be persuaded to go one way or the other-heterosexuality or homosexuality. I am not concerned with those people - they must rely upon their education and family upbringing, and determine for themselves which choice they make. I speak as one of the members of the House who is particularly at risk over the total Bill. I say that because, according to the petition taken by those who opposed the law reform, the petition in my electorate contained 20 299 signatures. That amounted to an almost unbelievable 97. 25 percent of the electorate. The Heylen poll conducted on 22 June recorded that 61 percent were in favour of reform, 35 percent were opposed to reform, and 5 percent were undecided. As a result of the publication of those figures for Hamilton East, Professor Pool of the University of Waikato undertook to check the poll. He conducted a random survey of 667 people in Hamilton East on 19, 20, and 21 September. His results showed that only 37 percent signed the petition. An editorial in the Dominion commented in the large divergence between the numbers claimed to be in favour of the petition and the numbers claimed against the petition. However, the final comment in the editorial was most important. It posed the question, “What is the use of determining the question on a number-crunching principle?" I accept that, even if 40 percent of the signatures are genuine, 8000 people in my electorate are opposed to the reform. That ought to give weight to the position 1 take and the attitude I adopt towards the Bill. However, I do not accept the article in yesterday's Waikato Times, which stated: “M. P. s unmoved by call”– Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member, but it is appropriate for me to point out - with some regret, because I do not want to interrupt his flow - that Speakers’ Rulings state several times that members may not quote newspaper comments on a measure before the House. The member may paraphrase, but he must not quote directly from the material he has in front of him. BILL DILLON: I have been moved by the call; I have been moved by the number of letters; and I have been moved by the number of people who signed the petition, even if the number has been reduced to 8000. However, I put to one side the extremists on either side of the debate. Extreme positions are not consistent with the Gospel or with Christian tradition. I agree with the member for Porirua who, when the Bill was first introduced, said that tolerance and understanding were needed. The people of Hamilton East need to have that tolerance and understanding in accepting the way that I propose to consider the Bill, having had an opportunity of going through all the submissions that were put forward. I am supported in that by an announcement from the New Zealand Interchurch Council on Public Affairs that represents 11 Christian denominations, including the Catholic Church. The middle ground is the area where people ought to see my vote being cast. The member for North Shore has very accurately described the three issues - the decriminalisation, the age of consent, and the human rights issue. On the first of those issues there are those who seek to promote homosexual behaviour and life-styles as desirable alternatives to marriage and family life. At the other extreme there are those whose disapproval of homosexual behaviour has become distorted into a cruel rejection and disparagement of homosexual persons. I reject both of those views. I suggest that the enlightened understanding is that while I approve and uphold moral norms, designed for the sanctity or wholeness of individuals, it is still necessary to be compassionate towards any form of human weakness and necessary for Christians to be ever mindful of the dignity of all persons. I believe that the arguments that have been put forward require the law to decriminalise homosexuality. The second question then is that of the age of consent. By logic and principle it would seem necessary to have a uniform age for both heterosexual and homosexual relations. There is no clear evidence that boys need a further period of protection in relation to homosexual acts, in comparison to girls. However, being a father, and having had two boys and two girls in my own family, I am aware, as most parents would be, of the differences in their maturity rates. I am also conscious of those people who have expressed concern that the age of 16 for male homosexual acts is too low and, accordingly, I am not yet convinced that I should not support the age of 18. I suggest that age would give some solace to those people who are so firmly-perhaps blindly-opposed to the reform. It is a question for me to determine in my own mind as to whether the age of consent should be 18 or a lesser age. I refer to the third section of the Bill, which deals with human rights. There has been some misunderstanding of this human rights proposal. It is as a shield, not a sword. It is not available for people to use to claim something; it is available to them to protect them from being discriminated against. Our history shows the position of Maoris, women, and Catholics. In the 1930s a ghetto mentality was adopted by Catholics and there was evidence of their being discriminated against in relation to jobs. If there were two people going for one job and one was a Catholic it was quite possible that that Catholic could be discriminated against. That is not so now and I do not believe it has been for the past 40 years. It hurts me to find, as seems to be the case throughout the world, that those who have been persecuted become, in turn, the first and the most vocal to persecute. I refer to those who now form that brave little nation of Israel. Forty years ago they were the persecuted; now they appear on the world scene as a very feisty nation. It seems odd, but with that ghetto mentality one finds a vociferous method of challenging, of getting out of that minority group. There are those in the United States who would remember the Jews who had all the “Chutzpah” - the bravado. There would be those who would remember the Negroes who were referred to as being uppity niggers. It is the way that those minority groups have traditionally fought back. Consequently, I ask on behalf of those who have fought for the law reform that they be forgiven if they appear to have gone beyond the bounds, because it is in the nature of people to fight back in that way when they are a minority. This is a conscience vote. I intend to exercise my conscience vote as I have described. I ask my constituents who have heard me tonight to recall what I have said and the explanation for the way I shall vote. Hon. JOHN FALLOON (Pahiatua): I did not come to Parliament necessarily to impose my views on moral issues on other members of society. However, I am not prepared to run away from the responsibility that a member of Parliament has in exercising the right to vote according to his or her beliefs or his or her electorate's beliefs. My decision has been made on the basis of personal experience and also on what I perceive my electorate believes. I am bound to say that personal experience is more important to me than what I have seen coming from the electorate. However, it happens to coincide with the views of correspondents and the people with whom I have discussed the matter. We cannot run away from the issue. I think my views would be somewhat different if homosexuals were being persecuted and confined to prison because of their sexual preference; but, given that that does not appear to be so, I will oppose the Bill in all its stages. The reasons were covered in part by the previous speaker when he said that the Kinsey report suggested that people could be graded on a 1:6 scale, and many could go either way. I do not perceive that as a society we are ready to accept that homosexuality is normal behaviour; I also do not see that as a society we would be prepared to accept that those individuals who, in the privacy of their own homes, in a relatively stable relationship, practise homosexual acts should be prosecuted. Like most members, given a choice I would back away from the issue and let society make up its mind according to its views. But, we cannot run away from what is happening in the community, and, in particular, the effects of a law of this Chamber on the vulnerable in our society. Parliamentarians have the unenviable task of making moral judgments on others by voting in the Chamber, and we are certainly not perfect. But, once again, we must take that responsibility and explain it to our electors. I said that I had had personal experience. I went to a boarding school where there was some homosexuality. I was one of a group of prefects who helped to remove from his job a headmaster, a man whom I respected. To this day I do not know whether we were right or whether what we did was just, but I do know the effect of the actions of that person on those who came to us and told us of the interference that occurred. Thai matter typifies why I am strongly opposed particularly to the age of 16 years - and, in fact, to the older age as well, for reasons I shall later discuss. I do not think the country is yet ready to see schoolmasters or headmasters with young vulnerable people, who may go either way, in a position in which they can be exposed to the kind of indoctrination so often espoused by the gay movement. Hon. RUSSELL MARSHALL: That will still be illegal. Hon. JOHN FALLOON: I believe that if the human rights part of the Bill is applied the Minister of Education will have difficulty in preventing the large number of active gays from being recruited in such schools. It will put the individuals responsible for the recruitment and employment of the teachers in the unenviable position of having to oppose the law. I take that view after discussing the matter with the people concerned. It is not something I have dreamt up, but is as a result of discussion and analysis. I also consider that if society were mature and prepared to accept the different deviances with more tolerance, perhaps we could have a different view on the law that is before the House. However, when there is a lack of tolerance on both sides - but, more particularly by the activists in the gay rights movement - I do not think we should accept a law that encourages that kind of behaviour. A meeting held in the Hutt Valley was supposed to be started with a prayer. When the Salvation Army major stood up to say “Our Lord Jesus” the gay people chanted from the floor, “Don't give us that Jesus Christ garbage here. He sodomised his own disciples." I do not accept that kind of behaviour any more than I accept the extremists on the other side. But I do not think the extremists on the other side are 100 concerned about trying to change the sexual preference of 16-year-old boys. They may well be trying to help the moral standards as they perceive them, and those moral standards are generally accepted by the majority of our society, including some people in the gay movement. However, sexual preference is different from moral standards and values. I return to the point that we should ensure that those people who can enjoy a heterosexual opportunity in life receive the advantage of that, as opposed to the possibility of being indoctrinated by the alternative life-style of the gay movement. I believe that, because I believe very much in the family as the stable part of our society. I do not accept that the gay communities of the world are stable. They may well provide an opportunity for people with a certain preference to come together and do the best they can, and good on them if that is what they believe, but I believe that would cause great divisions in attitude and great stress on our kind of society. Because they become politically active in all respects I am sure that the next stage of that development in New Zealand would be that they wished to bring up children. I would oppose any opportunity for people who are not prepared to be involved in precreation having the right to bring up a family. [Interruption.] Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I have already said that people in the public gallery do not have any part in the debate. I am not sure whether the same people are involved, but I point out to them that the gallery will be cleared if there is a repetition of the kind of sniggering that has been going on. I hope that is clear. Hon. JOHN FALLOON: As I said earlier, the law must be a benchmark. The House must stand for certain standards of behaviour that we believe in. Many members who intend to vote in favour of the Bill say they find homosexuality repugnant. I must ask those members why, then, they wish to encourage it, because that is precisely what the Bill will do. They can still salve their consciences, if they want to be tolerant, by voting against the Bill, because the present law is being applied in a tolerant fashion. If we do not have that benchmark, the strong activist element in the gay movement will take it another step further and it will be the family and then the fabric of our society that will be under threat. I am not prepared to tolerate that when people are in such a vulnerable position in modern society, anyway, when so many of their options are not determined by a stable family background but by what people perceive as being the experimental society we are shaped in and exposed to. However, I am conscious of those people in the gay movement who feel strongly about human rights and attitudes. That is why, as I said earlier, if there were clear evidence of discrimination on the basis of those people being charged with offences, and if they had to meet jail terms or fines, I would have a different view, particularly about the age of consent. But at present I do not feel that either the gay movement or society is ready to be tolerant enough to accept the change to decriminalise homosexual activity in law, but not in practice. The behaviour of the camp in favour of the Bill has shown that this is only the beginning of the changes it wants to achieve in society and in society's attitudes on the issue. Being a politically active group, it is trying to increase its numbers. That illustrates to me that if the law is changed those vulnerable people will be more vulnerable than before. That condemns them to a position that the majority of our society would not ever accept as normal behaviour. I do not want more people in that group to be exposed to such a position. That is why I am opposed to all parts of the legislation. DAVID BUTCHER (Hastings): I want to congratulate most of the participants in the debate on the second reading of the Bill. It has been of a high standard, with only one or two people descending to a narrow, partisan level; most people have seriously debated the issue. There are several reasons why I have not previously contributed to a debate on one of the personal morality questions that come before the House. One is the innate reluctance of many of us to discuss private and personal matters in public, even when they relate to other people. I also have a disinclination to preach or lecture others on how they should behave. As one who has never been blessed with a family, I am reluctant to parade my beliefs on this kind of issue in public at any time. However, on the present Bill I feel I owe it to my constituents to put my views on record. I intend to support decriminalisation of consensual homosexual activity. I believe that is the weakness in the argument of the member who immediately preceded me, in that the Bill refers only to activities that are consensual. I intend to support the greatly strengthened penalties against indecency with young children and the great improvements the Bill represents in that respect. I also intend to support the same age for males and females in activities with people of the same sex. At this stage I am inclined to oppose the human rights clause in the Bill, because of what I perceive to be the potentially divisive diversions that could be created if there is decriminalisation. I am prepared to listen to argument on the matter, and I look forward to that debate at a later stage of the Bill. The main issue, therefore, for me, turns on the vexed question of the age of consent. My initial preference was for an age of at least 18 for both males and females. However, experience has surely shown us all in recent history that the present age of 16 is breached more than it is honoured, and I believe it would be unfair for the age to be different. Reluctantly, then, I have come to the view that if the Bill is to be passed, the age of 16 is probably the only logical age to be incorporated in it. In fact, I believe that because the Bill relates only to consensual activity, there would be very little practical difference, irrespective of the age written into the Bill. Originally, like many members, I felt obliged to make an effort to sound out the views of my constituents. I published my views in a local newspaper that circulates to every household in my electorate and I received a number of letters and telephone calls as a result. However, over the years - and I have held these views for many years, I have entered into commitments based on my beliefs and the evidence I have seen. In those circumstances I believe that a poll of the kind many members have conducted could confuse people into believing that numbers would decide the issue. I do not think that is so. The validity of polls can always be questioned, as my colleague the Minister of Internal Affairs pointed out in his eloquent speech earlier this evening. In addition, many polls have been conducted by reputable polling organisations, and their conclusions have been very similar. If one is to support a measure of this kind it is important to put on the record how one came to that point of view. Many of my age group became involved in politics in the mid 1960s because of an abhorrence of persecution of the few by the many, and of the weak by the strong. We were involved in issues such as the war in Vietnam, apartheid, and corruption and dictatorship as they appeared around the world. That led us to a concern for issues closer to home, such as poverty, exploitation, and discrimination. That state of affairs leads naturally to opposition to laws that mark a minority of the population as being different because of matters beyond their personal control. For that reason, since the 1969 election - the first I contested - I have always said that I would support a law aimed at decriminalising homosexual acts between consenting adults. Following the reiteration of my views to the electorate I received many submissions both for and against. I believe that most of those submissions were made with the highest of motives and expressed sincerely held views. They certainly challenged my beliefs and required me to detail my views in my replies. I enjoyed the vigorous debate the letters engendered. I would not vote for the Bill if I did not think that the very real and sincere fears expressed by many people were groundless. I resented the threatening tone of some of the communications I received. I do not respond favourably to political threats. I believe firmly in a pluralistic society, and that involves several aspects, including the whole issue of religious freedom and the laws that apply to all religious faiths. I believe that an attempt to impose one set of beliefs on the entire population is a threat to a pluralistic society. Three arguments against the Bill have been mounted by many of its opponents. I shall mention briefly those arguments and what I think about them. The first has been that the Bill is against God's law. Frequently cited in support of that contention was chapter 20 of Leviticus, particularly the contents of verse 13 stating that if a man has sexual relations with another man both shall be put to death. However, those who drew that verse to my attention did not as enthusiastically draw to my attention verses 9 and 10, which refer to rebellious children and to adultery. Under our law none of those things attracts the death penalty prescribed by the scriptures. Only one attracts a criminal sanction under our present law. To those who say that the Bill is against the law of God, my reply is that that may well be so. The House has no capacity to change the law of God, but it does not imply that we have to write that into our criminal law. Many people say that the Bill is immoral because homosexuality is immoral. I would be quite prepared to accept the proposition that many people find homosexuality immoral; many others find it distasteful. I certainly find some of the practices described by the member for Hauraki very distasteful, but neither of those is a sound ground for making homosexuality illegal, because those practices are not confined necessarily to homosexuals. If it is the practice that we consider distasteful or destructive, it is the practice to which we should direct the attention of the law. That leads to the third argument, that homosexuality is unnatural - and that can have two meanings. The first meaning can be that it does not occur in nature. Certainly that is not so, as has been pointed out already. It attracts mention in the Bible. The best evidence available indicates that at least 5 percent to 10 percent of the population are that way inclined. Much evidence points to the determination of sexual preference occurring before the age of five. I ask those heterosexual people who believe that homosexuality is a matter of choice how they chose their sexuality. An argument based on unnaturalness in that sense cannot be sustained. The second context in which the word “unnatural” can be used is that certain parts of the body are designed for certain functions and should not be used for any other. As I have said before, the member for Hauraki and others have described some practices as distasteful, but certainly they are not confined to homosexuals, and, if it is the practice the member wants to proscribe, it is the practice that should be made illegal, and not the practice of it by only some people. All those things having been said, I point out that as a member of Parliament one does, of course, become involved in the personal affairs of many people as they come to make representations and to seek help. One of the representations I have received over the years illustrated dramatically, as much as anything, the reason the Bill, or something similar to it, should come forward. A young professional person from Hastings came to see me. He said he had discovered in his early twenties that he was a homosexual. He revealed that information to his parents who promptly threw him out of the house and wanted nothing more to do with him. He went to England on a scholarship, and in the course of his work there he met a man with whom he subsequently became very intimate. Shortly afterwards he had a major accident resulting in a prolonged period of hospitalisation. The only person in the world who was interested in him, and was prepared to look after him at the time, was his male friend. After making a partial recovery he was required to return to New Zealand because his British visa had expired. He wanted to bring his friend with him but was unable to do so, because his friend did not qualify under the immigration policy. Had his friend been female, and had they been married, the friend would have qualified automatically for admission to New Zealand. As the law stood then I could not approach the Minister of Immigration to exercise his discretion, because the very act of their living together was illegal under the law. No other person in the world was harmed by their relationship; it was a very sincere and meaningful relationship, and both of them gained a great deal from it. A law that creates such distress cannot be fair. A further case brought to my attention concerned a person who told me that as a 14year-old in the 1950s he knew where his sexuality lay, although he had never heard the word “homosexual”. He said he still remembered the agony as a 16-year-old after a school dance when he escorted his partner home. He was expected to kiss her goodnight, or even to hold her hand, and he could not do so. But he said that during his first brief experience at 17 with a homosexual, his body and his whole reactions were totally different. He said that after many years he reconciled his sexuality with his religious beliefs. He is now a lay reader in the Anglican Church and his lover is an elder of the Presbyterian Church. He said they have lived together for 10 years as happily fulfilled criminals. I do not believe that a law of that sort is fair. As somebody said earlier, the whole matter is really one of community attitudes. I do not believe that the Bill will make much difference to community attitudes, but in this House we pride ourselves on democracy. What is democracy if it is not the absolute right to be different and, in some circumstances, the absolute right to be wrong in the eyes of everybody else? I intend to support the Bill for that reason. Hon. JIM BOLGER (Deputy Leader of the Opposition): I rise to speak on this important issue. I know there are many other important issues out in the community, whether the level of interest rates, the debt of the nation, the value of the New Zealand dollar, the crisis in farming, or the problems of exports - all of which are important. But tonight we are seized with the responsibility of discussing a private member's Bill, the Homosexual Law Reform Bill. It is a private member's Bill, but I think it is fair to observe that many would see it as a Labour Party Bill, inaccurate though that description is in technical terms. In most matters that members speak on in the House we have, as it were, the support of our colleagues, the support of a caucus position, a consensus that has been reached. We speak and vote in general and, almost universally, according to that consensus. On this Bill, as with a few others, we have no such support. Members individually have to make their own judgment, do their own research if they are of a mind to, take their own counsel. Some canvass the views of their electorates. Some gather their thoughts together in other ways. However, finally we have to stand alone in the Chamber, make a judgment, and vote according to that judgment. Some find making a judgment extremely difficult, and I cast no aspersions on them because of that difficulty. Others find it much more clear-cut, and their views are perhaps more firmly held. Pressure is the norm with legislation of this type-pressure from those in favour and pressure from those against. Lobby groups emerge. Issues are promoted, some with great vigour and some with a complete lack of subtlety. There is concern at times at the tactics of some of the enthusiasts, whether they be for or against, and that tends to obscure the real issues. As I have said before publicly, all should display tolerance in dealing with issues such as this. It is not consistent with the views of either side or the views of anyone that there should be a lack of tolerance for the views of others who may have a different viewpoint on homosexual law reform. I do not believe that any member's view will be changed because of abuse or threats. I do not believe that on a moral question members will be so easily dissuaded. That undervalues the integrity of members. I was one of the few members at present in Parliament when my colleague the member for Waitotara proposed reform in a much more modest fashion than the proposal at present before the House. On that occasion I spent some time with him and talked to those he believed it would be beneficial for me to talk to in order to give me a fuller understanding of all the issues involved. I welcomed that opportunity to listen and to assess, and I finally voted against my colleague's Bill. It is also my intention, despite the passage of the years, and despite all that has been written and said and stated and commented on, to vote against the Bill before the House. Much has changed. Attitudes have certainly changed in the community on several issues, and it would be correct to observe that what is termed a more liberal view - although some would dispute the word “liberal” - has now a greater measure of support than before. But one other issue has changed dramatically in the specifics of the debate and the Bill that we have before us at present, and that is the emergence of what was then unknown but is now known-the deadly disease of AIDS. AIDS is a fatal disease. It cannot be wished away. It cannot be pushed under the carpet. We cannot presume that it does not exist. It does. It kills. There is no known cure. The most common way to catch AIDS is through male anal intercourse. That is a statistical fact that no one is the Chamber can deny. The importance of that in terms of the Bill cannot be overlooked, because the first part of the Bill seeks to legalise male anal intercourse. It is as simple as that. It does not consider the issue of whether people can have homosexual love, because there is no law against that. What is against the law is the act of sodomy. The act of sodomy - to use a word that was for many years outdated but is now more commonly used - is the means by which most people will contract the killer disease AIDS. Others may be persuaded, but I am not persuaded, that Parliament can lightly put that matter to one side when considering the Bill. That is one reason, at least, why I am not persuaded to support the Bill, even though I have listened carefully to the argument that by legalising anal intercourse the control of AIDS will somehow be facilitated. I cannot, by the application of any logic, come to that conclusion. I cannot see how making something legal will prevent that disease. Again, there may be others who can so persuade themselves. I am not one of them. If more people were encouraged to engage in the act of anal intercourse, inevitably there would be an even wider spread of AIDS. That, again, is logical. That is the experience, according to the statistics that I have read, of other societies in which there has been legalisation or practice. AIDS is a major health threat, and while I do not want to put a financial sign on a moral question I must observe the financial aspect as well. The Chamber must very carefully consider that aspect before it votes on the issue. A major argument in favour of the law change is the simple proposition that the law has no place in the bedrooms of the nation. That has been said on many occasions with conviction. On first hearing, it has a comfortable ring about it. It sounds a comfortable notion, and one that perhaps one should be persuaded to accept until one thinks a little more deeply and finds that the law states very precisely that in many circumstances it has a place in the bedrooms of the nation. It certainly states that it has a role when dealing with the young of the nation. It certainly states that it has a role in the bedrooms of the nation if one is dealing with heterosexual sex with girls under the age of 16. So there is no basic proposition that the law has no place there. We are then left with a qualified statement that the law from time to time has a place in the bedrooms of the nation. Therefore, it is a question of whether it has a place at the present time or in the present issue. I do not believe that any member would dispute the belief that young people should be protected. It must be said also that there are people active in promoting the acceptability of homosexual acts who dispute that. Some people believe that sex between a man and a boy is normal. I say that to illustrate the point that there are other reforms - if I may misuse that word - that some people would want Parliament to approve at a later date. I am sure it will not approve such reforms in my time, and I hope it will never approve such reforms. The House must make a quite simple decision on a complex matter: does it legalise, and thereby give some public sanction to, homosexual acts between consenting males over the age of 16 years, 18 years, or 20 years, depending on which viewpoint is accepted? I add here that one of my colleagues has told me that he is prepared to accept the Bill if the age is 94 years, though I doubt whether that amendment will be put. Members must accept that if they vote in favour of reform they are giving sanction to homosexual acts. We must not mislead ourselves by saying that we would simply be ratifying the status quo - and, to some extent, we would be; but we would be going one step further and saying that it was normal in the eyes of the law, and that, of course, would widen the occasions when homosexuality could be promoted as a normal and acceptable life-style. Many New Zealanders who have great sympathy for active homosexuals would not want anal intercourse to be promoted, or be seen to have been promoted, by Parliament as normal behaviour. I am one such person. Another argument that is advanced is that the law must be amended to prevent harassment because harassment is wrong, and the only way to prevent it is to amend the law and, therefore, to give a cloak of normalcy to what is presently proscribed by the law. Again, it sounds attractive to say that if Parliament makes the practice normal the harassment would not take place. The first question that must be asked is whether the level of harassment makes that a major issue. I know that an earlier speaker tonight drew on some historical evidence and reminded the House that perhaps it did happen in an earlier time. I have not read, heard of, or been presented with any case of recent times in which the behaviour of adult males in the confines of their bedrooms has been brought to the attention of the courts. The harassment argument tends to fall down on the ground that it did not have substance in the first place. In deciding whether or not I want to put my name beside the legalising and, therefore, the normalising of anal intercourse, I cannot persuade myself that it is a biologically normal function for the human body. Some may be able to, but nothing I have read or seen suggests to me that to engage in that activity is a normal biological function of males. Therefore I would have to say that I have listened; I have been sympathetic to those who have seen me to talk about the issue; I have tried to understand their views; I have tried to see the issue from their point of view, which, I believe, one must do; but, having done all that, I have to inform the House that I shall vote against the Bill. FRED GERBIC (Onehunga): I propose to vote for the second reading of the Bill. I believe that adult homosexuality should be decriminalised to the extent that the Bill proposes. The fact that the law has not been enforced in relation to homosexuals indicates that it is unenforceable, and that it is, in itself, an ass. The law has been no restraint on the development of homosexuality in society. In my experience, homosexuals are in general good citizens. They do a lot of good work in the community, in social welfare and for voluntary organisations, and they should not be classified as criminals or subjected to the criminal law. Other members have covered that point more eloquently than I could. I have some concerns about the Bill. I have to report to the House that I conducted a survey in my electorate. I sent out 1000 questionnaires to randomly selected electors, and the result was that the electors in Onehunga are roughly equally divided on the subject-in fact, within seven votes. Like other members of the House I have received much correspondence on the subject, and a substantial majority of those letters from the electorate favour the Bill. Members of the House have made some very eloquent and sincere speeches. Like every member I have been subjected to submissions from electors, but I have not had the benefit of attendance at the select committee hearings so I have had to rely on the evidence that has been presented to me. I shall refer to the submission from the Department of Justice to the select committee, which was sent to each member - and I refer particularly to a section of it that deals with a policy advisory committee on sexual offences that was convened in the United Kingdom in 1980. It stated that a majority of 10 members of that committee considered that the age for consensual homosexual relations should be reduced from 21 to 18 years. It went on to state: “It is our experience that between the ages of 16 and 18 girls are on the whole more mature than boys in their approach to sexual relationships and that in so far as it is possible to generalise boys have caught up with girls in the process of maturing by the age of 18." The report stated that the majority expressed some doubts about contemporary medical opinion that a young man's sexual orientation was fixed by the age of 16, although it was accepted that sexual orientation was firmly established by the age of 18. I noted also in the report that in England, Scotland, and Wales the age of consent for homosexual activity is 21, compared with 16 for heterosexual activity. In New South Wales the age of consent for homosexual activity is 18, compared with 16 for heterosexual activity. The report advises that, from a pragmatic point of view, to make the age of consent 18 would be likely to lessen what appears to be the genuinely held concern of a considerable number of people in the community, and would also place the Bill in the mainstream of overseas reforms. The survey conducted in my electorate proved that a substantial majority preferred the age of either 18 years or 20 years. When I considered the Bill at the outset I used a simple yardstick: I am satisfied that adult homosexuality should be decriminalised. I then considered the question of adult age, and I believe that the age of 18 is appropriate. I believe that 16 is too young, although I know that whatever age is fixed will be an arbitrary figure. I believe there is a need to establish a differential between homosexual activity and heterosexual activity. Despite hundreds of years of homosexual practice, I cannot accept that homosexual activity is a normal activity. Some people have said that the age of consent should be equal between the sexes, and that to have a higher homosexual age would be to discriminate against young men. They questioned why young men need more protection that young women. In fact, discrimination is already practised against young women in regard to heterosexual activity, which is prohibited under the age of 16. Young men do not have any restrictions in law - they can practise heterosexual activity from capability. The age of consent is an arbitrary judgment. However, considering all matters, I believe that 18 is the appropriate age for homosexual activity. I am also concerned about the amendment regarding human rights. I have not heard any evidence to support the need for that amendment. I have not heard of any cases of discrimination against homosexuals in housing or employment. I question the need for the amendment. If I were the owner of a house property for rent, I should be delighted to let my accommodation to homosexuals. I think they are careful, fastidious, and proper people in a tenancy. I also note that the Residential Tenancies Bill, which will be passed in due course, provides protection for tenants who are evicted from their homes, or who are under threat of eviction. They can appeal to a tenancy tribunal. Members will know that I have had considerable experience in the employment area-not less than 23 years in the industrial field. During that time I did not have referred to me, or have occasion to take up, a case of discrimination relating to the employment of homosexuals or the dismissal of a worker because that worker was a homosexual. I believe that with the passage of the amendment homosexuals would be given a privilege that no other person holds. A homosexual worker, covered by an award, who was dismissed from employment, would have the same right as every other person to go to a personal grievance hearing and have his case against the dismissal appealed or determined finally by the Arbitration Court. Every worker is entitled to make such an appeal. I am willing to be convinced on those issues. I have a relatively open mind, but I must say that I have not heard any evidence so far to convince me that I should change my mind about the age of consent and the amendment to the human rights legislation. I should like to hear a response by the sponsor of the Bill to the issues I have raised. In conclusion, I compliment her on introducing the Bill to the House and on placing the issue before the House and the people so that the people can have a voice, through us, on the subject. She has done the work with dignity and courage, and I certainly compliment her. BILL SUTTON (Hawke's Bay): There is no doubt in my mind that the matter we are debating is of great importance. It raises fundamental issues, many of which have been adequately debated already. I am sure it will play a part in determining thousands of votes in the next election. I congratulate most of those members who have already spoken on their sincerity and restraint. However, I find myself with a great deal more to say on the matter, and some of it has yet to be canvassed in the debate. I wish to speak as a scientist and to make some comments on the biological evidence relating to homosexuality. I wish to report the views of my Hawke's Bay constituents in so far as I have been able to determine them, and, finally, to foreshadow certain amendments that I intend to move in the Committee stage. The widespread occurrence of male homosexuality is a matter of common knowledge, and also a matter of scientific record. Barrett et al. have stated that homosexuality is one of the oldest and more commonly indulged sexual behaviours. They refer, as many members have, to Kinsey's report and to later reports that confirm all the main conclusions of Kinsey. They state that most children pass through a stage of homosexual exploratory activity that is not considered to be either criminal or deviant. They further point out that oral-genital sexual practices are no longer considered deviant, and marriage manuals now include those behaviours in their normal list of precursors to sexual intercourse. They also refer to the fact that a smaller proportion of men persist with exclusively homosexual behaviour throughout their lives. The biological basis of that behaviour is still a matter for scientific debate. Barrett et al. hold the view that it appears that neither genetic defects nor hormonal influences play a part. Other scientists who have studied the field come to different conclusions. Money and Erhard hold the view that gender identity is critically determined by levels of hormones, particularly sex hormones, during either the pre-natal stage or the early post-natal development of the brain. In other words, their view - and it appears to be a strongly held view among scientists who have studied the field - is that there are actual changes in brain structure during development as a result of the hormonal environment that determine gender identity. If that view is correct, it follows that homosexuality is not a chosen behaviour; nor is it likely to be curable. That is the view strongly put forward by the Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists, which stated in its submission to the select committee that the notion that homosexuality can be treated as a disease is inappropriate and unacceptable. Many homosexuals lead well-adjusted lives and have no need for medical treatment. If I turn from matters of scientific record to my own personal observations, it is apparent that male homosexuality is widely prevalent in New Zealand. Like some of the other members who have spoken in the debate, I attended a boys' boarding school for 5 years. I observed several instances of adolescent homosexual behaviour, such as mutual masturbation. When I was at school a small group of boarders openly adopted a homosexual behavioural pattern. They were, by and large, tolerated by the majority. I have since been told that that is a most unusual occurrence in New Zealand high schools. Several members of the group were involved in a scandal in which they were discovered engaged in sexual activities with boys who had not previously been suspected of having homosexual inclinations. Interestingly enough, it was the latter group, not the former group, that was regarded by most of the boarders as being disgraced. Some of those involved have since attained responsible and respected positions in New Zealand provincial towns. With respect to broader fields of homosexual behaviour, a men's discussion group that I joined in the late 1970s included two adult male homosexuals, one of whom introduced me to several of his friends. In that way I learnt that many practising homosexuals lead outwardly normal lives in our provincial towns. The question of the basic human dignity of male homosexuality has received little attention in the debate. Nobody who values literature could fail to be aware that the world of homosexual love is seen as being as rich and multifarious for homosexuals as the world of heterosexual love is seen as being for heterosexuals. One of the finest love poems I know was written by a practising male homosexual, W. H. Auden. I will quote it in its entirety because it is a reasonable antidote to some of the long descriptions of homosexual behaviour made by people who regard such behaviour as disgusting. The untitled poem reads: Lay your sleeping head, my love, Human on my faithless arm; Time and fevers burn away Individual beauty from Thoughtful children, and the grave Proves the child ephemeral: But in my arms till break of day Let the living creature lie, Mortal, guilty, but to me The entirely beautiful. On the stroke of midnight pass Like vibrations of a bell, And fashionable madmen raise Their pedantic boring cry: Every farthing of the cost, All the dreaded cards foretell, Shall be paid, but from this night Not a whisper, not a thought, Not a kiss nor look be lost. Soul and body have no bounds: To lovers as they lie upon Her tolerant enchanted slope In their ordinary swoon, Grave the vision Venus sends Of supernatural sympathy, Universal love and hope; While an abstract insight wakes Among the glaciers and the rocks The hermit's sensual ecstasy. Beauty, midnight, vision dies: Let the winds of dawn that blow Softly round your dreaming head Such a day of sweetness show Eye and knocking heart may bless, Find the mortal world enough; Noons of dryness see you fed By the involuntary powers, Nights of insult let you pass Watched by every human love. Certainty, fidelity. There are many testimonials in literature to the profound loving feelings that some male and female homosexuals experience. We should treat those feelings with the respect we accord to all human love. Anal intercourse has occupied the attention of a number of members who have spoken in the debate. I believe it is a minority practice for both homosexuals and heterosexuals. The anus is anatomically placed close to the genitals, and some anal stimulation is virtually inevitable during sexual activity. Anal touching and other forms of behaviour are said to be experimented with by many heterosexual couples. Anal intercourse is perhaps less common. However, I note that in many of the rape trials reported in the New Zealand news media there are also charges of heterosexual sodomy. There were 331 charges and 46 incarcerations for sodomy in New Zealand between 1973 and 1983. Although there is no record of how many of those sodomised were female and how many were male, it is my impression that most of the victims were female. Those numbers are dwarfed by the reported sexual crimes against children. In 1983 alone there were 549 reported sexual crimes against girls under the age of 16 years, and 153 against boys under 16 years of age. Only 11 of those involved sodomy. My personal view is that homosexual law reform is overdue. However, as the member for Hawke's Bay I have tried to ascertain the views of my constituents. The number of people who signed the petition against the Bill was 4849, or 15 percent of the total electoral population in Hawke's Bay. That was a lower proportion than in many provincial seats. There is evidence that that number may be underestimated, and that many of those who are opposed to the Bill would probably not be prepared to sign a petition. In April and May I had a telephone survey carried out in Hawke's Bay using 120 names selected at random from the electoral roll. Eighty percent agreed to answer; of those, 57 percent agreed that homosexual acts between adult males should be permitted, and 43 percent were against. Only one of the respondents did not know. In other words, the majority were in favour of decriminalising anal intercourse. The majority of those who were in favour supported either 18 years or 20 years as the age of consent. Similar answers were given in respect of lesbian acts. When asked whether it should be illegal to discriminate against homosexuals as in the provisions of Part II of the Bill, 68 percent were in favour of making discrimination illegal. Those figures are in good agreement with Heylen polls that have been carried out in New Zealand. The most recent poll showed that 61 percent supported law reform and 34 percent opposed it, but that only 22 percent would support 16 as the age of consent. Therefore the majority view appears to be clear enough. However, I must report that this has been a bitterly divisive issue in Hawke's Bay, as it has been in other parts of the country. I have received 117 letters and telephone calls on the subject; 59 percent of them were opposed to the Bill, and 41 percent were in favour of it. Some of the views on both sides were highly extreme, and I felt that they revealed a frightening depth of hatred. One constituent declared that the passage of the Bill would condemn more souls to hell than 1,000,000 nuclear bombs. Another constituent described homosexuals as arrogant, vicious liars, and stated that he would not want them in the school, the office, the factory, or the services. On the other side of extremism one woman declared that heterosexual men were responsible for rape, incest, venereal disease, and unwanted lives, and that those opposed to the Bill were a radical fringe of inhuman religionists. I am glad to report that I also received many sensible and sincere letters from people holding both liberal and conservative views on the matter. The most moving messages I received came from adult male homosexuals. I shall not read extracts from them because without the personal human details they would lose their impact, and I do not want to risk revealing their identities. Finally, of the six personal letters I received from Hawke's Bay ministers of religion, two were opposed to the Bill and four supported it. Coming to the proposed legislation, it is clear to me that I must support reform of the law as a matter of conscience and in response to the majority view of my constituents. As there is such extreme division, I believe that it is necessary to try to reach some pragmatic stance that will broaden the agreement and reduce the division. I see no valid reason for criminal law to be invoked against adult male homosexual acts when similar heterosexual or lesbian acts are permitted. Other members have spoken adequately on that matter. However, I do not support the full provisions of Part I or Part II, and I serve notice that I shall move several amendments in the Committee stage. In Part I, I believe that 16 years as the proposed age of consent for anal intercourse is unacceptable to most New Zealanders. If that provision were to be passed it would move substantially ahead of public opinion, not only in Hawke's Bay but also throughout the country. Therefore I shall move an amendment to the proposed new section 142 suggesting 18 years as the age of consent. That would have the purpose, first, of making the Bill more broadly acceptable, and, second, of reinforcing the current medical opinion that anal intercourse is a dangerous practice. I shall speak at more length on that in the Committee stage. The suggested age is the same as the voting age. Finally, if that amendment to the proposed new section 142 were confined, there would be no discrimination between homosexual and heterosexual practices. The proposed new sections 140 and 140a, which relate to indecency with boys, should, in my opinion, remain unchanged, as they would bring that section of the Crimes Act into line with sections 133 and 134 relating to indecency with girls. I propose to put forward several amendments to Part II of the Bill. First, the definition of sexual orientation in clause 9 should be amended to read “sexual orientation in relation to any person means that heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual preference of that person". Second, I believe that sections 15(3)(c), 15(6), and 21(2) of the Human Rights Commission Act should be amended to permit discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation as well as on the grounds of sex. Those provisions relate to domestic employment in a private household and to any position, authorisation, or qualification that is for the purposes of an organised religion and is limited so as to comply with the doctrines or rules of the religion or to avoid offending the religious susceptibilities of the adherents. Provided those or similar amendments can be passed, I intend to support both parts of the Bill. I believe that the amended Bill will be acceptable to most of my constituents in Hawke's Bay. DEREK ANGUS (Wallace): First, I congratulate the four members who have given up so much of their family life and spare time to campaign against the legislation in order to preserve and maintain some kind of decent order in our society. On behalf of the many good and well-meaning New Zealanders who worked to solicit support, I also congratulate the organisers of the largest petition to be presented to Parliament. It could be argued whether the numbers are 800,000 or 500 000; it is still the largest petition to be presented to Parliament. It was amazing to see the mover of the Bill appearing on television on the same day as the petition was presented to Parliament, looking like a startled hen that was being chased off her nest - and well she might! She looked startled, confused, and shocked because many New Zealanders had spoken clearly in that petition. She was in a state of shock because it was clearly shown that the legislation is not needed, supported, or wanted by most people. The Government and the member for Wellington Central are clearly trying to destroy the normal strong structures and the very fabric of family life. Clearly the Bill was brought in to create a smokescreen to divert people's attention from the failure of the Government in the economic field and from the real issues of inflation, interest rates, and the cost of living. To try to legalise homosexuality for 16-year-olds spells disaster, and I certainly will not support any part of the Bill - nor would most people in my electorate want me to do so. I would go so far as to say that there will be some members in the House who will even regret their support for the Bill at the next election. Members should think for themselves and vote with their own consciences on this particular issue. Homosexuality is a complex issue, which must be considered with compassion and concern for the individuals involved. However, in the long run, society and many individuals in it will be worse off if the Bill is passed. The argument is frequently put forward that homosexual practices are not immoral, but are an alternative sexual orientation that is as moral and normal as heterosexual practices. It is certain that if Parliament passes the Bill homosexuality will eventually become acknowledged as a morally accepted sexual practice. That is certainly the expectation of the so-called gay rights movement. What then is morality? Are moral values merely relative to the present social mores? On what ground can homosexual practices be moral and, say, violence be immoral? A popular concept is that any action is O. K. as long as it does not harm others - we should live and let live; we know the sayings. If that is so, then practices such as orgies, prostitution, pornography, polygamy, adultery, incest, sodomy of animals, drug abuse, and so on, should not be interfered with by law or condemned by intolerant objectors, as long as all parties involved consent. Is that not what some of the supporters of the Bill are saying? Surely it is inconsistent to say that violence in society will always be wrong, whereas homosexual practices may be regarded now as an acceptable moral standard. We are talking about violence. I was disappointed to read today in an article in the Tablet that supporters of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill have savagely attacked church leaders. The latest attack is made in the most recent issue of Out, in which it is stated: “The. language used shows that whatever happens in the Bill the gays plan an aggressive strategy against all opposed to them-churchmen and politicians." The article also warns that “if the Bill does not pass, the active element of the gay movement could become very active indeed in spite of the law. It would be unrealistic not to expect a reaction against supporters of the petition who may have been seen to be unwise in identifying themselves. However wrong it may be, gay bashers and their families could well find themselves and their property at risk.” Do the people who make such statements deserve any compassion or support? I have been reliably informed that the gay task force around the world is watching the progress and, it hopes, the passage of the Bill. I wonder why? For many years many homosexuals have remained in the closet, so to speak, concealing their behaviour from employers, from friends, and even from spouses. Many wrestled against their impulses in much the same way as an exposer wrestles against the compulsive behaviour that makes him feel guilty and ashamed. But they are not the people for whom the gay rights laws are primarily designed or who lobbied for them, because they keep their sexuality private and they are seldom if ever discriminated against. I really do not argue against that group. However, members of the militant homosexual community have sought to overcome the natural revulsion against their behaviour by making largely successful efforts to polish their image. That group has won the support of many people of good will, including prominent religious and political leaders, and then its members make statements such as those published in the Tablet. What spill over effects does homosexuality have on society? Homosexual behaviour leads to problems far beyond the circles of homosexuals themselves. As a group, for example, homosexuals release both disease and crime into our society to an extent far in excess of their percentage of the population. Research around the world confirms that. The connection between homosexuals and health has been underscored more recently by the rise of AIDS. The medical community has long known the medical facts of homosexuality. Medical specialists have known about the disproportionate impact on the sick homosexual community of diseases such as syphilis, hepatitis A, hepatitis B, and so on. Although homosexuals may be small in number - some estimate 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 of the United States population - they carry more than 44 percent of that nation's cases of syphilis, 51 percent of gonorrhoea of the throat, and 53 percent of intestinal infections. Forty percent of homosexuals in the United States admit to that infection. One survey in Amsterdam showed syphilis in about 34 percent of homosexuals who were attending saunas in that city. In San Francisco and Minneapolis, diseased homosexual food handlers in public restaurants have been responsible for major outbreaks of serious diseases such as hepatitis A. Unfortunately, homosexuals have a rate of infectious hepatitis B that is 20 to 50 times greater than that of heterosexual males. It is no wonder that Dr Seymour Dritz, an official of the San Francisco health department, wrote that special precautions are required to protect the public from carriers who work as food handlers, bartenders, attendants in medical care facilities, or as teachers and aides in day care centres for infants and young children. In the last decade, since gay rights laws have been in effect in San Francisco, there has been a sharp increase of venereal disease in that city-22 times the national average. Infectious hepatitis has increased by 100 percent. Infectious hepatitis B has increased by 300 percent in other large areas. In San Francisco there are 75,000 patients each year, of whom 80 percent are homosexual males. It is interesting to note that despite efforts by the South Australian Government and agencies, and the AIDS task force, to alert homosexuals to the dangers posed by AIDS, a survey in South Australia has found that most have not changed their sexual habits to prevent the spread of that horrific disease. In Adelaide, more than 300 young homosexuals were interviewed in city bars and discos where homosexuals are known to meet and most said they had not changed their life-style or sexual behaviour because of the threat of AIDS. There is another constant question: are homosexuals born that way? Although gay rights laws customarily speak of the affectional preferences, homosexuals on the defensive frequently say they have no choice. Debate interrupted. The House adjourned at 11 p. m.

IRN: 3846
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_homosexual_law_reform_bill_second_reading_continued_16_october_1985.html
TITLE: Homosexual Law Reform Bill - second reading continued (16 October 1985)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 16 October 1985
YEAR: 1985
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 16 October 1985, New Zealand Parliament. Debate resumed from 9 October 1985. BRUCE TOWNSHEND (Kaimai): Before the interruption of the debate 1 week ago I had been expressing my concern that the House had been deprived of information about the effect of AIDS on the wider community. At that time 85 public submissions were still to be heard, and it was unfortunate that the Government used its majority to deprive those people-many of whom were experts - of their right to present information before the committee. While the committee cannot make recommendations to the House other than on technical matters, it had an absolute obligation to present to Parliament the best information available. It is easy to identify the moral argument that homosexual activity is unnatural and against God's law. On the other hand, the liberal attitude states that it is the right of an individual to do what he wishes in private, and that the question of morals is a subjective issue. I doubt that we will ever persuade those two sides to change. There is a third element that is probably best defined as charity, expressed by those holding conservative or liberal views on whether homosexuality should be decriminalised. The subject of AIDS has added a further dimension to the debate, and an important issue is that of the morality of the House in relation to the wider community. It has been clearly demonstrated that AIDS is not a disease of homosexuals alone. It can be fairly well demonstrated that the spread of AIDS is probably accelerated by the homosexual community, but beyond that–because it is widely accepted and established that about 60 percent or more of males who practise homosexual acts are bisexual - there is a threat to many other innocent victims throughout the total community for whom we have a responsibility to do our best. There is no known cure for the disease; it can take years to develop fully, and it is a virus with constantly changing characteristics, which makes immunisation by vaccine a distant hope. No symptoms of pain occur in its early stages - unlike venereal disease, with which there is a burning desire to tell somebody within a few days. Medical evidence submits that education is the only weapon to deal with AIDS in the long term. In the short term, openness, blood screening, and identification of carriers or potential victims are essential requirements. A critical aspect of the law reform is whether we should criminalise consenting acts in private and try to closet homosexuality, with the risk that we hasten the spread of AIDS. Few have difficulty in arguing that homosexuality and homosexual acts are unnatural. I notice that the member for Hamilton West is screwing up his face, but in the eyes of most of the population I would suggest that that is the accepted view. To enforce a position whereby it is a criminal offence, while knowing that to do so could unleash a social and health time bomb of the magnitude of the plague or the great influenza epidemics, is an issue that the committee should have considered and been able to make firm recommendations to the House on. It is the responsibility of members of Parliament to do what is best to avoid the development of that position, and I suggest that that is our moral responsibility to society. At present we have a latent law, one of inaction, in the provision of the Crimes Act and homosexual acts. It is really token legislation and, unfortunately, rather than having argued the issue with logic we have seen attitudes harden in both camps. If we were, in passing the Bill, to restate within the statutes that homosexual acts should be criminalised, even within the limitations that the final Bill will prescribe, I suggest that the whole debate would awaken an avalanche of public opinion. That same opinion created a petition with 800,000 signatures, and I fear that we will see a reaction demanding adherence to the new law. Is it right that we put this imposition on the public at large? Parliament must der the issue very carefully. I personally disapprove of homosexuality, and I also believe that Parliament cannot legislate for the morals of the nation. My personal belief is in the charity of Christianity, and I would support that view rather than the imposition of a fundamental religious direction on a minority of 10 percent of the community by 90 percent of the community. I do not support the human rights provisions in the legislation, because I do not think New Zealand is ready to accept them. In particular, there is concern for families when parents feel they still have a right to select those persons who, knowing them to be homosexuals, they prefer should not influence and direct their children. If we look specifically at some of the unanswered questions from the select committee we will see that at about the time the hearings concluded there was an announcement about the similarity between Alzheimer's disease and AIDS degeneration and the AIDS problem. Since then there have also been two articles about the similarities between scrapie and AIDS. Scrapie is the disease that affects the brains of sheep, and a major importation of livestock affected by the disease, which could have had a significant economic impact on the agriculture sector, was slaughtered in New Zealand. As a nation we were prepared to destroy in order to protect our livestock, yet on this issue we tend to have argued on a very narrow band between morality on the one hand and liberalism on the other. I suggest that members must think a little more clearly in future. The observation about scrapie highlights the problem that no vaccine could ever be prepared that would be effective in the control of AIDS if it contained a protein. That in itself is a problem, but the principle is more important. We were prepared to take more violent steps in our livestock industry than we are to face up to one or two of the real issues. The conclusions of the select committee and the report of the Department of Justice show that it seems there is doubt about what the real effect would be, but two interesting observations were made about the effect of criminalising homosexual acts and the effect that would have on the disease. On balance, the conclusion was reached that it may well be better out in the open. The Australian experience tends to fortify that argument. The conclusion was reached that it was a matter for the Department of Health and not one that should be dealt with within the criminal law. I was impressed by the visiting New South Wales general practitioner, Dr David Sutherland, who explained the position in New South Wales as against that in Queensland. When we study the parallel case of California, where homosexual acts are not criminal, and Florida, where they are, no clear evidence is found to indicate that by criminalising those people whom we recognise as having a sexual orientation that is different from the average, because of metabolic or hormonal differences, we shall achieve the right answer. When a kite was flown recently in New South Wales about making AIDS a notifiable disease, and it was decided that AIDS carriers should also be notifiable, the public backed away because there is no known cure. On balance, I invite the House to meditate on this very important issue. It is one on which Parliament must make the best decision for the people of the country. Sitting suspended from 5. 30 p. m. to 7. 30 p. m. BRUCE TOWNSHEND: Before the adjournment I canvassed the impact of AIDS on the wider population and also the responsibility of Parliament to have a moral conscience about doing the right thing in the Bill to ensure that AIDS does not become a plague. Having canvassed that and other issues in relation to the removal of the human rights provisions in the Bill - I consider them to be premature, because New Zealand is trying to lead the world in that field - I also see a need to raise the age of consent for males to beyond 16 years. The member for Papatoetoe is reported as having said in the second reading debate that he felt it was male chauvinism to have a different age for males and females. There are three reasons that the House should consider raising the age in the Bill. The physical and sexual development of girls is acknowledged to be at least 11/2 years more advanced than that of their male counterparts. At 16 years of age girls are much more at risk if they want to move into the world of sexual activity, and with the risk of pregnancy they have an inbuilt deterrent. Conversely, the adolescent male at 16 years of age has nothing at risk. He may be prepared to experiment, and if there is a propensity towards homosexual activity-which I do not condone or encourage - I do not think it is desirable to have a law that will encourage him to take that risk. Hence I support the amendment to raise the age to be moved by the member for Fendalton. At this stage I will be voting against the second reading, with the desire to see the human rights provision removed. Other members - in particular, the member for Tarawera-hold parallel views to mine on such issues. Unfortunately, the member for Tarawera is away from the House on urgent public business, concerning himself with the plight of farmers around the country. As legislators it is easy for us to have a general criticism of a selected group of society. While from our own particular perspective of morality we may disapprove of a principle or activity, I invite the House to take back the responsibility each member has to a personal basis. As legislators it is easy to be critical of an individual, or a group, or a minority, or an activity. However, if we had a personal or family contact with someone who had inherited strong homosexual tendencies through the hormonal or metabolic imposition that nature had given him-and it is not correctable, as many would claim-it would put a different perspective on our attitude to whether a homosexual should be made a criminal. Although I shall vote against the second reading, I assure the House that I intend to take what I feel is the best course. I hope that more evidence on the matter will be raised in the debate, because it is an important matter. It is an important matter for the 33,000 people in my electorate and the 3,300,000 in the country. Parliament must adopt a broad perspective in producing a workable and sensible Bill. Finally, I want to give a short résumé of one of the most touching letters I received on the matter, which was sent to me when the matter was receiving much public debate. It was from a woman in a quiet corner of my electorate, who said that the finest man in the world that she had ever met was a homosexual. “I married him, and I endeavoured to work through the marriage. He has stood by me and has done right through his whole life. But, due to his orientation, we could never overcome that difficulty.” She said that she was now 74 years of age. She asked that we do not make a criminal of him. TREVOR DE CLEENE (Palmerston North): I congratulate members who have so far participated in the debate. For myself, I find it one of the most pleasing aspects of the Chamber that on a debate on a social conscience matter the quality of debate usually rises - and indeed it has - and members can fulfil the democratic and constitutional process that Parliament was originally designed for - that is, the individual expression of a democratic opinion on matters pertaining to the people whom we seek to govern. I urge the member for Kaimai to change his mind on voting against the second reading of the Bill, because, in my view, the Bill should have a second reading so that the very matters he put before the House tonight can be the subject of Committee debate and at the vital stage of the Bill the individual conscience of the people in the House can be exercised in the voting lobbies. By those means we will have a better Bill, in whatever shape or form it eventually passes - because I am sure some of it will be passed. I urge the member for Kaimai, for whom I have respect-indeed, as a Government member I have respect for all members, particularly when they are voting on a conscience matter - to depart from voting against the second reading. I am speaking as a member and also as a lawyer with considerable experience of acting for people who, whether due to God, nature, or something else, are designed in a different way, or had a different proclivity in life on sexual orientation than perhaps mine or somebody else's. I am reminded of the famous passage in the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam: “After a momentary silence spoke Some vessel of a more ungainly Make; ‘They sneer at me for leaning all awry: What! did the Hand then of the Potter shake?” I am the last person who wants to be judgmental. I did not want to speak in the debate, but, because I would otherwise have avoided what is a duty that I owe to my constituents and the people, I am forced to exercise my conscience on a matter that I would rather not have had brought before the House at this time. However, I commend the member for Wellington Central for her courage in introducing the Bill and making members exercise their consciences. I want read into Hansard a history of the matter. Before 1533 the felony and the common law of England recognised no derogation of what a person, male or female, wanted to do in a sexual orientation. It was left to the ecclesiastical courts. Later in my speech I shall say that that is basically where we still are. I remind the lawyers of the House, and anybody listening tonight who is a lawyer, that the law of the country sprang not from the historical common law of which Anglo-Saxons were so proud, but from the abolition by Henry VIII of the religious aspects of the ecclesiastical courts. A Bill was passed during the sixteenth century stating that the abominable vice had been dealt with exclusively by the ecclesiastical courts and that the offence of buggery was made a criminal offence under the law of England. Thus for most of the evolution of mankind the people who suffer from the present criminal law did not suffer. It was only in the sixteenth century that it was brought from the law of God into the law of man. I repeat: buggery became an offence only then. One could do what one wished in relationships after even that, so long as it was not buggery, which was defined as an act with an animal, a woman, or a man. However, if one did commit the offence one could be burnt at the stake - and some people were. I hope they will not be after this debate, but they may be if some members who have spoken get their way or if some people who are visitors from overseas and who represent a moral point of view get their way. I am not one of those. The death penalty was finally abolished in 1861 but consensual homosexual acts other than buggery remained legal. Total prohibition came only in 1885. One of the people who suffered from that Act was probably one of the greatest literary geniuses ever to grace the English stage - Oscar Wilde. There was the famous action against the Marquis of Queensbury - who was well known for other, pugilistic activities - who acted for the love of his son. Oscar Wilde wrote such things as The Picture of Dorian Gray and the Essays on Socialism. He was one of the literary greats of our heritage, but he was tried and died in poverty. The only thing I can say about it is that if accident of nature and criminal law can do anything, he wrote the Ballad of Reading Gaol before he died. I view that as one of the great literary masterpieces of the English language. Those Acts came into New Zealand law after it took Dominion status. The law against homosexuals was passed at a late hour of Parliament when La Bouchère moved an amendment that was basically designed to stop the prostitution of women and young girls. It came into law as an accidental matter aside from buggery and other things. What I am saying to the members who oppose the Bill is that fundamentally the act of criminal homosexuality was not derived from the common law of England from which we inherit our marvellous system. It was derived from an act and a sin against God, as it was seen by the ecclesiastical courts. I have no argument with the fact that some members of the Chamber and a lot of people in this country regard homosexuality as an act against God. God can sit in judgment when they have shuffled from this mortal coil. I urge upon members and the public generally that they render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, unto God what is God's, and that they do not exercise a moral judgment in a criminal sense against their fellow human beings. I am no stranger to the King James Version of the Bible. I had tremendous respect, Mr Speaker, for your predecessor, Sir Richard Harrison, as a Speaker of the House. If I ever quoted the wrong version of the Bible he would pull me up later and say: “Trevor, that is not the King James Version." However people view this criminal law today, it came into the courts as an act against God-not against man and the criminal law. Among the hullabaloo with which this issue has been attacked in New Zealand one finds people who believe they have the word of God on their side. To me that is a very onerous burden indeed, and I am not being jocular. I believe the members who honestly think that are to be treated with the greatest respect. The people who take that view may be right and I may be wrong, but it is not an onus that as a member of the House I am prepared to speak on lest I, too, should end up at the judgmental seat and someone may say to me that the greatest sin upon earth was to assume the burden of God and judge fellow human beings when that is best left to the Maker. What I am saying is that as long as they do not hurt anyone, as long as they leave children alone - and that is the evidence-I could not give a damn what they do as long as they do not scare the horses. I am not being jocular in saying that; I am simply not being morally judgmental of my fellow human beings. If we decriminalise--and I shall vote for decriminalisation; I shall follow the member for Wellington Central through the lobbies - we are removing as a criminal act something that historically, and in all other senses, has not been an offence other than in an ecclesiastical jurisdiction, and I do not offer an opinion on that. If members think they are right then God bless them, because there is only one person who can tell them that, and I have had no great advocate come back from the other side to convince me of who is right and who is wrong. From the people I have known and acted for in the past I am not prepared to say that what is right for a woman, and what was never considered as an offence, is wrong. In 1921 a private member's Bill was brought before the House in England to make so-called unnatural acts illegal. I am not saying what is unnatural and what is normal. Frankly, I do not know what is normal or unnatural. I know what I accept within myself as a natural thing. I know what I regard as normal, but I do not have the temerity, as other members do, to say that the view I take on morality is so correct and accurate that it must have the force of the laws handed down by God to Moses on the Mount. I suppose I shall be punished in another place just as other people here will be, but not before the courts of this country for an act that is proper and legal between women. In my opinion if it is good enough for the gals it is good enough for the boys. I believe in equality of the sexes. I know that some of my women compatriots in the Chamber do not think I display that belief with the vehemence and enthusiasm that some of them do, but I was brought up by a mother-a Scottish woman whose name was MacDonald before she married Willie de Cleene - who drilled into me that not only were women equal but basically they were superior. If one fought it with old Mary de Cleene and survived, one would be a survivor in this world. The one thing she taught me at her knee was that all people who walk on two legs and speak in a guttural tongue are human beings. My old dad used to say that one did not have to drink with them or be with them if one did not like them, but for God's sake - and he used that expression - do not judge them. If the Lord is omnipotent and created all people then the Lord must, by definition, have created the very people attacked by some members in the Chamber. Who is the sinner and who are the sinful if that be the case? I am not urging it, but my logical mind says to me that if the Lord is omnipotent he could have fixed all of this up in a flash of a pan. Leaving that aside, it is not a matter for the criminal law. The Bill that was brought before the United Kingdom Parliament in 1921 stated that lesbianism should also be subject to the criminal law. It was thrown out on the basis of the submission from the House of Lords that if one let women know about it they would be encouraged by it. There have been advertisements up and down the country. I am not, in the words of Karen Hay with whom I debated against Shadbolt, Scott, and McCormick, trying to make it compulsory. The member for Napier made a brilliant speech but, one again in the words of Karen Hay, “I was not going to ram this homosexual law reform down his throat”. I am merely asking for tolerance. That brings me to the next point. If ever I preached any doctrine to the democracy of this country it is the doctrine of tolerance and respect for one's fellow human beings. The scenes of moral judgment that occurred outside the House shocked me, and turned by mind back to the Nazi members of Nuremberg in 1933. (Interruption). “Crap” someone says - it certainly was - and there were brownshirts out there to prove it on both sides - with people lining up in uniform, singing hymns, flying a flag, and saying " God's on my side!” During the war God was on the side of the Nazis. There were Christians there. God was on the side of the Russians. God is on everyone's side. One can get out of the Bible any argument that can be taken out of the New Zealand Law Reports if one is the advocate for it, but tolerance and mercy I have always taken from the Bible. I do not want to bring you, Mr Speaker, into the debate, but I know you are a Christian person. I am not saying what I am, but I am saying this to you: that I read incessantly that the virtue of tolerance is preached to us from the word go, and I wish that some of the people who Bible-bash would read some of the other quotations. A fellow called Pastor Sheldon came to New Zealand, got his photograph on the front of the New Zealand Times lounging back in leather-tooled, high-kneed boots with high heels, and told New Zealand women what they should and should not do about abortion, and what homosexuals should and should not do. I am afraid it reminded me of an extremism that is anti-democratic and an intolerance that I will not have in this country. If there is anything to be aware of in this debate it is that it has brought out in New Zealanders a hidden feeling that must have been there all the time. I do not exempt the other side of that same debate. People on the other side of the fence have shown an extremism that, in my view, should not exist. It has brought us into a virtual war of moral positions. All I am preaching tonight is that the greatest thing in this democracy is that right advocated by Voltaire: “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Equally I do not believe that the common law of this country or the statute law of crime should enter the bedroom. What adult consenting males do there is their business. The fact that someone else should exercise a moral judgment, send a policeman creeping up a private drive to peer through a blind to see what was happening and give evidence - and there have been cases of that happening - is to me simply a waste of the time of the police. Anyone who is prepared to do that has got a damned dirty mind, because what I, like Shakespeare, have always worried about is that the people who protest too much, “Methinks have a lot to protest about". What particular conscience are they serving in trying to flagellate people who have a different point of view? As a lawyer, when I retire from the House or get booted out - whichever is earlier-I will go back and defend the people of the ungodly-as I jocularly call them-the people who have sinned against the law. I do not want to go back as a criminal lawyer and have to defend people who were minding their own God-damn business in their own God-damn houses in their own God-damn time - to use the Reverend Sheldon's expletive, which was brought by him from America at some expense to the people of this country. I am saying that the New Zealand nation is better than that, and that most countries have decriminalised the offence. I intend to vote for decriminalisation. I intend to stick with the age of 16 years, not because I do not bear with some weight what the member for Kaimai said but because, in logic, I cannot say that what is good enough for the women is necessarily bad for the men; and if 16 years has to be the age of consent - and that may be another matter-I intend to vote for it. I want to reserve my right to hear more speeches on the human rights issue, but even then the more I note the extremism and intolerance in this country the more I am driven to the belief that the only way to squash this matter entirely is to decriminalise it, to make the age of consent 16, and to give people who walk as human beings upon this earth the same rights as anybody else. The more we get into extremism the more I am being driven by the logic of the legal mind to the belief that if it is not to be criminal then people have a right to the human dignity of equality with everyone else in the country. PHILIP BURDON (Fendalton): In rising to speak to the Bill I want to commence by emphasising my respect for the sincerity of the arguments presented by both sides of the House. In particular I draw attention to the deep and profound sincerity and the concern, on the one hand, of the member for Hauraki in his opposition to the Bill, and, on the other hand, the arguments in favour of the Bill presented by the Minister of Customs. There have been many other equally sincere speeches. I regret the way in which certain members have attempted to personalise and belittle the beliefs that are quite clearly sincerely and honestly held by other members. I dissociate myself from the ridicule and contempt that has been reflected by some for the 800,000-strong petition of those opposed to the Bill. Regardless of whether or not one agrees with the objectives of the petition the reality is that, irrespective of a substantial number of errors, it is a reflection of deep concern in society. To that extent it deserves responsible and concerned attention, which it clearly has not had from some of the more radical supporters of the proposed legislation. I do not propose to attempt to review in any detail the confused and troubled history of the legislation. Rather, I want to foreshadow my intention to introduce an amendment to the Bill to raise the age legalising homosexual acts between consenting adults from the proposed 16 years to 20 years. The amendment will be supported by a significant number of my colleagues who believe that there is justification for a much more limited reform than the radical and overdramatic reform proposed by the member for Wellington Central and supported by many of her colleagues. I invite the member for Palmerston North to listen carefully, as I believe he has prejudged some of our reasons. For purely clinical reasons we believe that it is wrong to legalise sodomy from the age of 16, which would be a direct consequence of the passing of the Bill. Regardless of the moral considerations, sodomy should be strongly discouraged. Sodomy, or anal intercourse, is a very dangerous act for health reasons, and society has an obligation to attempt to protect the young from a practice that carries very severe health risks. It is clearly shown that the incidence of sexually transmitted diseases is very high for those who engage in sodomy. It appears that the absorption of semen through the rectum could critically suppress the body's immune system and so account for the particular phenomenon of AIDS in the homosexual. It appears that the gay bow syndrome, which, together with the increased incidence of sexually transmitted diseases, may be central to the AIDS phenomenon is occurring because of the unbelievably crude acts performed between homosexuals, which the general public appears to be oblivious of. I do not believe it is in the public interest to allow 16-year-old boys or girls to be legally sodomised even though they may purportedly consent to the act. To pass laws requiring people to wear seat-belts while at the same time allowing 16-year-olds and 17-year-olds to be sodomised is a sad reflection of society's priorities in respect of health care. If people wish to sodomise one another they should be permitted to do so only after they have reached maturity and have had ample opportunity to understand the dramatic health risks that such an activity involves them in. For that reason I believe that 20 is an appropriate age for society to accept that it is no longer appropriate to protect the individual from himself. By the age of 20, society ceases to be entitled to claim an educative role and must let the individual take his place in society subject to all the usual constraints of consent and public decency. I now want to refer briefly to the philosophic argument. I believe in the rights and freedoms of the individual, and I respect the right of the adult to conduct his or her life with minimum interference from the State. I accept that the State has the right to educate and protect the individual. However, I cannot support the continued imposition of criminal sanctions against the adult homosexual, as I do not believe it is the role of the State to impose public morality on the community by enshrining it in law. What people do in the privacy of their own homes, however morally and physically obnoxious it may be to the ordinary citizens, is their own affair as long as the participating parties do it in full knowledge and with mutual consent. Society has an educative role until the age of 20 for strictly health reasons because of the uniquely dangerous nature of certain homosexual acts, and that is the reason for distinguishing homosexual acts from heterosexual acts. After the age of 20, society must accept the right of the individual to conduct his life according to his own personal values. We do not allow children under the age of 15 to smoke or people under the age of 18 to go into public bars. Likewise, for public health reasons, we believe, accordingly, that 16 is too young to allow sodomy to be indulged in. In addition to those reasons, I emphasise also that I totally reject the argument that the present law should remain as it is because it represents a constraint on homosexual activities. I accept that the present law is totally hypocritical in so far as it contains criminal sanctions that clearly are not enforced. It is wrong to allow a law to be perceived as a token discipline. If we acquiesce in abusing the integrity of the law, ultimately we bring the whole rule of law into disrepute. That may seem to be rather too puritan an argument but it is another reason that there is a compelling argument for legalising homosexual acts between consenting adult males over the age of 20. Accordingly, I foreshadow my intention, with the expected support of many of my colleagues, to introduce an amendment that will raise the age legalising homosexual acts between consenting adults from the proposed age of 16 years to 20 years, and tell the House that we will not be supporting Part II of the Bill. A group of us who support the second reading do so only to pursue the narrower reform I have outlined. None of us supports the Bill as it stands. JUDY KEALL (Glenfield): This is a very difficult speech for me. It is a speech that relates directly to my fellow human beings and to whether they criminals. I know that tonight I am speaking for people who are personal friends of mine, people in every walk of life. Many of them are ordinary working people; others are professional people such as lawyers, doctors, policemen and policewomen - women are involved, of course, in the second part of the Bill, by the removal of discrimination-teachers, and trade union officials. For a long time those people have wanted this change in the law. They have wanted male homosexuality to be decriminalised, and they have wanted a change in the law so that gay people will no longer be discriminated against in housing, employment, and various goods and services. I know that it is very important to them that the Bill should be passed. I support the Bill in its entirety. I come to this position of support from a background that is a traditionally Christian one. I was brought up in a Presbyterian home; my father was a Presbyterian minister. I am a woman deeply committed to the welfare of the family. I am a member of Parliament who has sat through many hours of the parliamentary select committee that heard evidence on the Bill. I sat through every sitting of the Statutes Revision Committee on the Bill, and three sittings of the Justice and Law Reform Committee. Along with the member for Hamilton West and the member for Wellington Central, I think I would have heard more submissions than any other member. I have been most impressed by the weight of submissions in favour of decriminalisation. The Bill has had a fair hearing. Nearly 60 percent of the submissions heard supported the Bill, and, of the 85 submissions not heard, 63 supported the Bill. Most of those people have written to say that they are happy for the Bill to be reported back and the criminal law should not punish private consenting behaviour. It should proscribe only behaviour that occasions positive harm. The Bill decriminalises homosexual acts between consenting male adults in private. The law has no business having any control over what consenting adults do in private. The law should be concerned to protect people from harm and to keep order in society. When people do something quietly in the privacy of their own homes they harm no one. The Bill does not allow the molestation of children. It does not allow sexual acts in public. It does not allow soliciting. In fact, it strengthens the law against those who seek to have a sexual relationship with a boy under the age of 16, putting a penalty of 7 to 14 years' imprisonment on that activity. Part II of the Bill includes those of homosexual orientation or perceived to be of homosexual orientation amongst those against whom one should not discriminate. It is important here to emphasise that we are talking about homosexual orientation; we are not talking about homosexual behaviour. Most of those who have spoken in the debate so far are getting muddled about the provisions of Part II. It contains nothing about homosexual behaviour. It is simply about those of homosexual orientation or those perceived to be of homosexual orientation. The Bill is exceedingly conservative in that area and it strictly specifies the categories of employment, accommodation, and the provision of goods and services. I plead with the member for North Shore and the member for Remuera, who seemed to have a very enlightened approach to the problems of homosexual people and discrimination against them, to read the submissions made by the legal faculty of Victoria University, which clearly point out what this part of the Bill does. It does not lay down attitudes. A person can still think what he likes about the matter, but the Bill refers to discrimination against a person's homosexual orientation in the provision of goods and services, employment, and accommodation. It is very important to pass that part of the Bill so that people have to re-examine whether they are discriminating against their fellow human beings. Homosexuality is not a disease or an illness but a valid form of behaviour. The submission of the Department of Health clearly stated that, and I shall briefly read from it: “Homosexuality is no longer generally considered within the medical and other health professions to be a disease. Increasingly, it has come to be viewed as a psychosexual variant, one of a number of possible sexual orientations. This was given expression when after 1973 the board of directors of the American Psychiatric Association removed the classification of homosexuality from its diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders. This manual is increasingly accepted as the standard reference for the clinical classification of mental disorders, both in New Zealand and elsewhere.” Homosexuality is not in that manual. The development of homosexual orientation is not a matter of individual choice. In the committee we heard of no one cause of homosexuality, but it was very clear that at any given time or place there appear to be about 5 percent to 10 percent of homosexuals. The committee was made aware that research by many reputable sources showed that. Regardless of how homosexuals come to be that way, and regardless of the law, there always appears to be about the same number of them. In some geographic areas the percentage is higher. In the cities it is near the 10 percent mark, while in the small provincial towns, where social attitudes do not accept homosexual behaviour under the present law, the percentage would not be likely to be as high as that. The Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists, the Mental Health Foundation, and the New Zealand Society on Sexology all gave strong submissions that provided evidence and research on those matters. It is interesting to consider the law in other countries. From the way some people have opposed the Bill one would think that New Zealand is leading in this matter, but it is following. Most Western countries with a similar kind of life-style have already decriminalised. Some of them have never had a law against homosexual acts. Britain decriminalised in 1967. Sweden has the same age of consent - 15 - for heterosexuals and homosexuals. In Norway the age is 16 for both. In France the age is the same for both, but I am not sure what it is. In Denmark the age is 15 for both. Austria has decriminalised at 19. The Federal Republic of Germany decriminalised at 18. Italy has never had a law against homosexual acts. The age of consent in the Netherlands is 16 for both heterosexuals and homosexuals. In Belgium the age is 18 for homosexuals and 16 for heterosexuals. In Spain the age is the same, and I think it is 12. Twenty-five American states have decriminalised. In Australia, New South Wales has decriminalised. In the Australian Capital Territory the age is 18 for both heterosexual and homosexual behaviour. In South Australia the age is 17 for both. It is interesting to note that South Australia, which decriminalised in 1972, has not had one case of AIDS. Some prominent countries that have not decriminalised are the Soviet Union, Romania, South Africa, Chile, and the Republic of Ireland. That speaks for itself. I believe that everyone has the need to give and to receive physical affection. Some people choose to deny that need and to become celibate, but that should be their personal choice and should not arise from legal necessity. Homosexual males are members of families - sons or husbands. One of the most common arguments used against the Bill is that it will cause the breakdown of the family. Some of the people who brought submissions to the committee were concerned about tension in a marriage when the husband turned out to be homosexual. They gave evidence of suicides in difficult marriage relationships or in family relationships when a son had been found to be homosexual. I point out that that happened under the present law. We must face the sad fact that as long as the law states that homosexual acts are criminal many men in society will feel socially pressured to enter into a heterosexual relationship. Many young men in families will feel that they cannot explain their feeling of difference. The Minister of Customs described that problem very well when she explained what had happened with a friend whose son had committed suicide because he felt he could not explain his life-style to his family. If homosexuality is decriminalised, part of that problem will be removed. The change will not happen overnight, but it is to be hoped that social attitudes will change and men will be able to develop stable homosexual relationships rather than having the tension, upset, and strain of trying to be heterosexual when it does not work out. Homosexuals are members of families. There are many different kinds of families. I see nothing very wrong in homosexuals setting up their own family life in a stable relationship. Surely that is better than a promiscuous relationship. On that matter, we must be very careful about arguing against the Bill by saying that it will encourage promiscuity. After all, some heterosexuals are promiscuous and we have not brought in a law to ban heterosexual sex. Promiscuity has nothing to do with the Bill. The Bill concerns the decriminalisation of homosexual acts between consenting adults. If those acts are decriminalised there will be more encouragement for people to develop stable relationships. The private morality of one section of the community should not be imposed on all. Under that heading, I should like to discuss the different Christian viewpoints. It is fair enough, as the member for Palmerston North pointed out, that various people should have different beliefs about homosexual behaviour, but they should not expect those to be imposed on everybody else-certainly not through the secular law. A democratic society should embody tolerance of the varieties of human behaviour. In my ideal society we would accept different cultures, different races, and different life-styles. It is most frightening to look back at Nazi Germany and to see how many millions of Jews were killed. At a conservative estimate, 250,000 homosexual people were also killed under that regime. When I hear the arguments being made against the Bill I see the same kind of regime being encouraged, in which people's views are imposed and there is intolerance of people with differing life-styles. The age of consent is another matter. It is difficult to sustain the argument for a higher age of consent when two individuals are morally responsible for their actions and consent to their actions. After all, 16 is the age of carnal knowledge for young women. That is the age at which young men and women are allowed to marry at present. If that is the present law I believe we should decriminalise homosexual acts also at 16. Many opponents of the Bill also fear the spread of AIDS. Unfortunately, the spread of AIDS has very little to do with the processes of the law. One needs only to look at two American states and the high numbers of people with AIDS-one is California and the other is Florida. In California homosexuality has been decriminalised but in Florida it is still illegal to take part in homosexual acts. The law has very little bearing in that case, because AIDS was in the area before there were any changes in the law. As I said earlier, in South Australia, where the law was changed in 1972 and education has been able to take place more openly, there have been no cases of AIDS. I congratulate the AIDS Foundation in New Zealand on the excellent work it has done among the gay community in educating it about the dangers of AIDS. Recent statistics show a great decrease in the number of sexually transmitted diseases. If the Bill is passed that education programme will be easier. In the end, all members must vote according to their consciences, but I plead with members of the House to give the Bill a second reading so that arguments on some matters about why some members are still uncertain can go further. I plead with the member for Kaimai, in particular, to vote for the second reading so that his constituent who does not want her husband to be called a criminal any longer will have a further chance for the Bill to be passed. How can what two consenting adult males do in the privacy of their own home have any detrimental effect on society? I am confident that it will not hurt any of the people I know, my family, my children, or any of those whom I love. I plead with the House to vote for the Bill in the interests of humanity and equality. Hon. PHIL GOFF (Minister of Housing): I have carefully considered the evidence and arguments put forward and it is my intention to support the Bill in its present form. That is not a decision I have arrived at suddenly. I have given thought to the issues involved in homosexual law reform over a period of time that pre-dates the legislation. The issue was raised occasionally in my electorate during two election campaigns. At that point I made it clear to my electorate that I would support a measure to reform what I regarded and still regard as outdated criminal legislation on homosexuality. This is not an issue on which the vote is taken along party lines. It is a so-called conscience issue on which each member of Parliament must exercise his or her own judgment. Opinion in my electorate, as in all others, is divided. Inevitably there will be people in my electorate who will not endorse my decision on this issue. Unlike other members, I have not taken a formal poll of electorate opinion. I believe - and share this belief with the member for Tamaki - that a decision should be based on the merits of the arguments and not simply on a count of heads. A member of Parliament is elected to exercise his or her judgment on issues. That does not imply that I have ignored or not listened to the views and opinions of all in my electorate. There are those who sincerely hold an opinion that is different from my own. I have answered all correspondence on the Bill and I have willingly discussed the issue with anyone in my electorate who has sought to raise it with me. My correspondence reflects divided opinion. Initially, the correspondence was heavily against the Bill, but some time ago it swung to being predominantly in favour of it. My electorate is one that has a reputation for its religious character. However, I must say that the majority opinion of church leaders and regular church attenders who have spoken to me about the issue is overwhelmingly in favour of reform. In reforming the law it is clear that by now Parliament will be following public opinion rather than leading it. Heylen polls have consistently shown that majority support is in favour of reform. The most recent poll suggested 62 percent in favour to 33 percent against. Regardless of the poll results, however, I repeat that judgment ought to be exercised on the evidence and the logic of reform rather than simply on numbers. Fundamentally, the question to be answered by the House is whether personal morality can or should be imposed by law and the threat of criminal sanctions. I do not believe that that is the proper role of the law. I do not believe that the State has any role in prying into the bedrooms of the nation to determine what is acceptable sexual behaviour between consenting adults in private. Each of those words - " consenting”, “adults”, and “private”-is important. The Bill does not legalise any behaviour that takes place without consent. Indeed, it imposes strong sanctions against any person forcing their sexual attentions on an unwilling party. It explicitly prohibits and provides penalties for the exploitation of minors and sexual activity with young people under the age of 16 years. Exactly the same protection is accorded to a minor against homosexual or heterosexual acts. I believe that that protection should be consistently applied. Young men and young women should receive equal protection. Similarly, the Bill does not allow explicit sexual behaviour in public. Homosexual and heterosexual acts will equally be governed by the same laws affecting acceptable public behaviour, as at present. Indeed, I strongly object to receiving through the mail from someone purporting to be a crusader for morality pornographic material on homosexuals, sent with the suggestion that that is what will inevitably follow the passing of the Bill. That suggestion is inaccurate. I suspect that it is dishonest. Nothing in the Bill makes legal or acceptable any form of pornography, whether homosexual or heterosexual. The Bill seeks to remove a criminal sanction that subjects homosexual behaviour to a penalty of up to 14 years' imprisonment. Such a sanction is totally inappropriate and I have heard no member-indeed, not even the member for Hauraki-attempt to justify the maintenance of such a sanction on the statute book, or its enforcement. The only countries in the world that attempt to enforce such an approach are countries such as Iran. In this country that approach is totally out of place. If we as a country were to determine that morality was properly to be imposed by the criminal law then we should at least be consistent, as they are in Iran. Lesbianism, adultery, fornication, and any other act deemed by some to be immoral should be proscribed. They are not, of course, and nobody seriously suggests that they ought to be. As well as removing the criminal sanctions against persons for homosexual behaviour the Bill also seeks to end discrimination against persons on the grounds of their sexual orientation. The orientation of most people in our society is, of course, heterosexual. For most, homosexuality is not normal. For a significant minority, however, a homosexual orientation is normal. To the best of my knowledge, those people have not threatened or harmed society or any other individual. They have, nevertheless, been persecuted and discriminated against, been liable to blackmail, and often been subjected to physical abuse. Regrettably, there is evidence that the emotional wave that has accompanied opposition to the Bill has again encouraged physical violence against homosexuals. Official sanctions against and intolerance of homosexuality have had profound consequences for those whose only offence is that they are homosexual. People have been forced to live in the shadows and to pretend to be other than what they are. The result has been unhappiness and misery for thousands of people and for their families. Our society and archaic laws have condemned people to psychological distress and, as we have heard in the House during the debate, sometimes even to suicide. Others have been forced to resort to what I guess has become a stereotyped homosexual life-style. I do not believe, however, that promiscuity or sexual flamboyance inevitably reflect the aspirations or behaviour of most homosexuals. That may, however, be the lifestyle to which our laws and our society have compelled many. Opponents of the Bill fear that acceptance by society that some people have a different sexual orientation will threaten or undermine society. It is further argued by those people that decriminalisation may cause mass conversion from heterosexuality to homosexuality. Neither point has any basis in logic or in evidence. Most Western democratic nations have long ago decriminalised homosexual behaviour between consenting adults in private. Those societies have not been transformed or damaged by the change; nor is it true to say that homosexuality inevitably becomes more ostentatious through law reform. I have heard warnings from some that if the Bill is passed New Zealand will become another San Francisco. No evidence exists to suggest that that city is any more a relevant model for New Zealand than are hundreds of other cities in which homosexual behaviour is not a criminal activity. However, what does stand out is that those countries in which homosexuals are not discriminated against are the same countries whose record of observance of a full range of human rights and tolerance is much higher than in those nations-often authoritarian - that retain criminal sanctions against homosexual behaviour. On the matter of the conversion of heterosexuals to homosexuals, I cannot find any evidence to suggest that homosexuality is a choice or even a life-style into which people can be seduced. Scientific evidence suggests that sexual orientation is inherent, rather than acquired. The Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists told the select committee that there was strong evidence that the direction of sexuality in almost all people is determined at a pre-school age. The suggestion that the seduction of adolescents was likely to be a major factor in determining subsequent sexuality was not supported by the evidence. I do not believe that any person should be persecuted or discriminated against simply on the basis of sexual orientation. As the law faculty of Victoria University told the select committee, clause 9 will not coerce people into accepting behaviour or activities of which they disapprove. The public right to disagree with or criticise homosexual behaviour is unaffected by the Bill. The Bill means that a person's right to employment, housing, or the provision of essential goods and services should not be affected simply because of sexual orientation. I cannot see that even those who are opposed to the Bill could oppose that provision. Many groups told the select committee that their opposition to the Bill related to a person's homosexual behaviour, rather than to homosexual orientation. The final issue to which I want to refer is AIDS. AIDS is undoubtedly a serious threat to health and life, which our community must minimise and contain. The primary way in which AIDS can be caught is by sexual contact, and contagion is, so far, predominantly confined to the homosexual community. Clearly, indulgence in particular sexual acts and promiscuous behaviour increases the danger of the spread of AIDS. However, the answer to that problem is not unenforceable criminal sanctions against certain sexual practices: far more useful has been the education campaign conducted by the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, which has warned people against behaving in a way that is unsafe. That campaign, and efforts by the Department of Health to detect and contain AIDS, are not enhanced by the present criminal law. There is far more reason to expect that the efforts of the Foundation and the Department of Health will be assisted if the fear of criminal prosecution is removed. The Department of Health told the select committee that it could not justify the present legislative provisions on homosexuality on health grounds. The Bill should be supported by the House. In a democratic and pluralistic society such as New Zealand it is not appropriate for the criminal law to intervene in the private lives of citizens to enforce any particular moral viewpoint. Rather, the role of the law should be to prohibit behaviour that causes identifiable harm to others. People should not be persecuted because of their sexual orientation, which all the evidence suggests is something that they have been born with rather than have acquired voluntarily. The passage of the Bill will be a mark of the maturity and tolerance that our society has achieved. HELEN CLARK (Mt Albert): I have supported the Bill from the time it was introduced into the House, and I have done so for reasons similar to those expressed by the Minister of Housing. Fundamentally, I believe that what people do in private by way of consenting sexual behaviour should not be within the reach of the criminal law. I strongly believe that what people agree to do in private is no business of mine, or of anybody else, or of the law. New Zealanders have traditionally enjoyed a great degree of personal freedom, and that is as it should be when the rights of other people are not infringed by the exercise of that freedom. I would not argue for absolute personal freedom to act without regard to the rights of others - no rational person would do so. However, the point about the practice of homosexuality is that when it occurs between consenting persons in private it infringes upon the rights of nobody else in society. For a long time the New Zealand statutes have treated consenting homosexual activity as if it were such a heinous offence that it warranted the special attention of the law, and as if it in some way infringed upon the rights of others who are not so engaged. While it is true that homosexuality is regarded as an affront to the morality of a section of the community, it can in no way logically be turned into an argument that an affront to the morality of some should deserve criminal sanctions under the secular law of the land. It is extremely important that when Parliament passes judgment on the Bill it should make a clear distinction between what some people in the community regard as a sin and what is a fit subject for the secular law of New Zealand, and all that the enforcement of that law entails. Those who believe that homosexuality is a sin are entitled to hold that view, and I personally defend their right to hold it. What deeply concerns me - and has increasingly concerned me throughout the public debate that has followed the introduction of the Bill-is that some people would seek to have the law enforce their moral viewpoint on into the twenty-first century, as it has done for the past 100 years. I believe that by doing that we would carry on a serious injustice and would continue seriously to impair the civil liberties of a minority in society. By world standards New Zealand has a remarkably free society. People here are free to practise any religious or ethical belief they choose, and are free to follow any political cause they choose. New Zealand has a free press - we often curse it, but we would not be without it. The world human rights guide rates us extremely highly on all the criteria it uses to judge whether or not a society can be considered free, open, and democratic. Along with countries such as Finland and Denmark New Zealand enjoys a 96 percent rating on that index of what constitutes a fair, open, and democratic society. If the Bill is passed that rating will increase to 100 percent. The Bill removes the injustices that those who are seriously concerned with human rights regard as the one serious blot on our image. As it stands now only New Zealand and Ireland in the Western World continue to regard male homosexuality as a criminal act. The British Act on which the law is based was changed almost 20 years ago after the acceptance of the Wolfenden report on homosexuality. It is time New Zealand took out of the statute book a law that was passed in the British Parliament 100 years ago and adopted into New Zealand law a year later. It was a law that was not intended to have the effect of totally outlawing male homosexual activity. It was put forward as an amendment by a member of the British House of Commons at the time to protect young boys from prostitution. The way in which the Bill was drafted-poorly and without thorough parliamentary scrutiny-led to the Commons actually outlawing all male homosexuality. It was a mistake then and I think 100 years is much too long to have lived with a mistake such as that on the statute book. Surely now, 100 years later, on the centenary of that event, we can take the step to remove that blot from our own statute book. We have heard much debate in the House and in the public arena about the age at which it is appropriate to decriminalise consenting homosexual behaviour. At present there is no age of sexual consent whatever for men concerning heterosexual activity. At present the law imposes an age of consent only on women, and that age is 16. It is an arbitrary age. Before the 1880s the age of consent in New Zealand was 12; it rose to 14, and later to 16 in the 1890s. There is nothing preordained about an age of consent. It is an arbitrary judgment, arbitrarily fixed, and it varies widely across countries. The age of consent has no bearing on the age at which young people become sexually active. The age at which they become sexually active is more likely to be related to levels of sexual maturity and to peer group and life-style pressures. If, however, there is to be an age of consent the one for which we have settled as being appropriate for young women for about 90 years is logically the one we should now accept as appropriate for young men. I can see no logic in the argument being advanced by some that boys are more deserving of protection in that respect than girls are; nor do I see any evidence to suggest that an age of consent of 16 for boys could lead to their being seduced and orientated to homosexuality against their will and before they have had a chance to make up their own minds. Those who argue that way are poorly informed about the nature of homosexuality. We know that sexual preference and orientation are fixed rather earlier in life than 16 years of age. No one quite knows why or how it is fixed. It is probably valid to describe homosexuality as a fundamental tendency in human behaviour that will show up among certain sections of populations across all cultures. Some people will be exclusively homosexual; others will be truly bisexual; many will have at least some, or occasional , homosexual experiences during their lifetime; but most will probably be exclusively heterosexual. Whatever we turn out to be, we probably have very little choice in the matter. Our sexual orientation will have been set early, and will be well established by the time we are 16 years of age, which I submit is a fit age at which to establish the age of consent in the Bill. I suggest that even occasional homosexual experiences - even seduction-cannot make a blind bit of difference to the fundamental sexual orientation of young men in our community. We are either predisposed to act in that way or we are not. Some have suggested in the debate - and we have heard the case again tonight - that the community is not ready for decriminalisation at the age of 16, but that it might accept a higher age. The ages of 18 years and 20 years have been put forward. I put it to those who have argued that way that we have a role as opinion leaders in the broader community and we have a responsibility to do what is sensible and logical and to persuade others of the reasons that 16 years should, in all logic, be seen as an appropriate and sensible age of consent. The report of the Department of Justice gives some weight to that argument when it states: “Logic and principle would seem to support a uniform age of consent for both heterosexual and homosexual relations. In the absence of clear evidence that boys need a further period of protection in respect of homosexual acts, there is a logical difficulty in justifying higher age of consent for homosexual acts” - I stress “a logical difficulty”. Others have suggested in the course of public debate on the Bill that decriminalisation of homosexual acts might lead to an increase in the numbers of homosexuals in the community. I believe that the evidence I have already alluded to shows that that view cannot be supported. People are either predisposed to homosexuality or they are not and the position of the law on the matter will not make one iota of difference. People cannot be recruited or seduced into permanent identification with homosexuality. What a change in the law may well do is increase the number of people in the community who are known to be homosexual. It often amuses me when I hear people say that they have never met a homosexual. Almost certainly they have, but those people have not felt able to express the fact that they are homosexual, given the present state of the law in this country, which buoys up unfortunate public attitudes towards homosexuality. Many homosexual men and women repress their homosexuality because they are afraid to express it. For men it is a criminal offence to do so. For women it is seen by a vocal section of the community as offending against social norms. Many homosexual men and women lead secret and unhappy lives because they feel unable to express the way they are. Some of them came to the select committee the day I sat on it in Auckland and told us what it was like to grow up as homosexuals in a society in which legitimate expression of their homosexuality is denied. We heard oral submissions such as the following from a male homosexual: “As a teenager my life was confused, sad, and frightening. At school there were no role models presented which had any relevance for me. My peers proved unmerciful at any suggestion that one's behaviour or sexual interest was anything other than that of a pattern determined by macho male role models of a type best exemplified by reference to film star heroes or famous rugby players. The total effect upon myself over an important formative period of my life was the development of an extremely negative self-image. Any list of adjectives I might have honestly used to describe myself would have included sinner, abnormal, dirty, wicked, and perverted. Such was the influence of my peers, societal mores, the church, and the education system." We heard similar evidence from a female homosexual who told the committee that through lack of information, confusion, and social naivety as a teenager when she was brought up in a small country town she thought she was the only homosexual in New Zealand and that marrying and having a baby would cure her love for women. She told the committee: “I do not want another generation with probably 10 percent of its adult population so utterly miserable.” Last week the member for Hauraki took exception to my statement in the House that the passing of the Bill would help to build a healthier social climate in New Zealand. I stand by that statement now, as I did then. I believe that society is far less than healthy when it represses fundamental aspects of the identity of some of its citizens. Society is not healthy when it sends overt messages to that minority that their behaviour is disgusting, abnormal, and so perverse that it should be regarded as criminal. Society is not healthy when it forces on people secretive and closet life-styles because of a fear of their expressing what they are. I believe that society will be healthier when people acknowledge their differences, acknowledge that the preference of a minority is not a fit subject for legal or other persecution, and accept homosexuals as normal members of any community-as they are entitled to be accepted. Finally, I come to the second section of the Bill, which would prevent discrimination against New Zealanders on the basis of their sexual orientation. Some members have told the House that while they accept the case for decriminalisation of homosexual acts they are still unsure about the second part of the Bill. I put it to them that the second part of the Bill, dealing with anti-discrimination measures, follows on naturally from an acceptance of the case for decriminalisation. If we accept homosexuality as a form of sexual practice that is normal for a minority and not deserving of criminal sanction, what then is the case for saying that others, presumably of a heterosexual orientation, should be free to discriminate against that minority? The rights of the minority in that case are thereby very seriously infringed. I suggest that we will have made little progress if, on the one hand, we decriminalise, at whatever age, and, on the other hand, fail to take steps to discourage discrimination on the ground of sexual preference. It would be utterly wrong for the House in any way to imply, by failing to pass the second part of the Bill, that it is legitimate for employers or landlords to discriminate against people who are homosexual. There will, of course, be good and bad employees and good and bad tenants among homosexuals, but there is simply no case to be made for blanket persecution and discrimination against homosexuals because they are homosexual or for refusing to employ them on that basis or refusing to rent flats to them. The experience with anti-discrimination legislation in New Zealand has been that over a period it has the effect of lessening prejudices against those likely to have been discriminated against before those laws came into effect. In the case of women, antidiscrimination legislation has helped to build a social climate in which it is accepted in the employment field, for example, that girls can do anything, and that they are fit to be employed across a wide range of occupations. Similarly, it has been found that legislation to prevent discrimination on the grounds of race and national or ethnic origin has helped to bring about a change in attitude and practice towards those minorities. I hope that, in the same way, if anti-discrimination provisions to protect gay people are enacted they will, in the longer term, lead to greater acceptance of them, their talents, and the useful role they can play as citizens of a healthy society. On that basis I appeal to those who are still thinking of supporting the first part of the Bill on decriminalisation and not supporting the second part to think again. I support the Bill in its present form, as I believe the evidence before us and simple common logic compels each of us to do. REX AUSTIN (Awarua): Every person who puts himself forward for parliamentary office - and certainly every member who is elected to the House-does so with personal gifts, personal goals, personal aspirations and ambitions, and personal morality. A member may stand for a party, stand on a party platform, espouse a party manifesto, and be elected on a party ticket, but as individuals all members bring with them their individualism. That is what distinguishes one from the other, and that is what sets each of them apart. It is entirely that parameter, that boundary of individualism, that will determine how each of us views the matter before the House and how each of us will cast his or her vote. The nature of the Bill forces us to square up as individuals, and that is how I want to present my short contribution-entirely as an individual. I cannot honestly assess, condemn, or, for that matter, praise other members, nor should I make judgment on them. To do so would be both presumptuous and wrong. I stand alone on the matter; I stand against the Bill. I intend to vote against every clause and do everything I can to prevent the advancement of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill. I do not want to be identified as supporting it in any way, and I do not want any part of the persuasion embraced by the proposed legislation. It is wrong, and if the Bill is passed the country will rue the day it accepted and passed it into law. Certain distinct issues are contained in the Bill, and the most important one is the issue of human rights. It is to that issue that I want to address my next remarks. As I understand the Bill, and as it is interpreted by many, the issue is that human rights demand that every individual shall have the absolute right to follow his sexual persuasion. I cannot subscribe to an all-embracing licence. While I admit that the sexual drive is a powerful and sometimes consuming element of human nature, it is, nevertheless, human nature, and it cannot be disregarded. However, I submit that boundaries, rules, limits, judgments, disciplines, and responsibilities are equally important, if not more important. It is the duty of members to set those parameters for our own protection, for our children's protection, for our families' protection, and for society's protection-indeed, if taken to the ultimate, for the survival of the country and its people. A great writer, Bronowski, made what I thought was a profound comment in the foreword of a book he wrote called The Ascent of Man: “Man is a singular creature. He has a set of gifts which makes him unique among animals so that, unlike them, he is not some vague figure in the landscape. Man has the ability to shape that landscape." I shall not go with the tide. I have no intention of joining the ballot of convenience, and I do not want to drift. I want to accept my responsibility for shaping the political landscape of the country - and the encouragement of homosexuality forms no part of that landscape. I shall not step aside from my duty, or acquiesce by default; nor will I make the mistake of not accepting a moral judgment. I consider it to be a moral judgment. We have a duty to improve humanity whenever possible; to bring forward our personal gifts and ideas to make life more comfortable, acceptable, and proper for each person in the country. Those views are well understood in my electorate. The people there know my views, and, I hope, respect me for them if they do not, I do not deserve to be here. I cannot change my mind on the issue. I have no inclination to be persuaded against my moral and my personal conviction. As I perceive it, there is no other important issue - the issue of homosexuality itself, the attraction of one sex for members of the same sex. As an individual I am conditioned by my knowledge; my logic; the environment I have grown up in, both physical and personal; my religious persuasions and convictions; and my experiences. Few New Zealanders have had an opportunity to visit countries in which homosexuality is widely practised. What disturbed me more than anything else - and I was not a member of the select committee-was the evidence that suggested that the homosexual tendency is limited and is more or less consistent worldwide at 10 percent. The figure of 10 percent gives credence and authority to the belief that, come what may, not more than 10 percent of New Zealanders would ever find themselves involved in the practice of homosexuality. From personal observation and knowledge I find that figure and that evidence to be false. They are misleading, and should not be relied on. If we study the history of the human race we find that among certain Polynesian nations the incidence of homosexuality was reliably assessed at not more than 2 percent. However, even today, in many countries in the Middle East the number of those who practise homosexuality in some communities is higher than 50 percent. I submit that the incidence of homosexuality can be set at between 2 percent and 50 percent. Its incidence is determined by the mood of the society, the environment of the society, and the acceptance of the practices of people. I invite the House to contemplate the 50 percent incidence of homosexuality amongst certain tribes and races of people, some of whom conform to the religion of Mohammed. In those societies homosexuality is not condemned; it is encouraged, and enjoyed. It is approved, and there are good social and environmental reasons for it. For example, in a Muslim society a man with money can, with the approval of the church, legally take unto himself, four wives simultaneously. It follows that the climate for homosexual practices amongst deprived males is ripe for exploitation when that practice is approved. Most of us know that. We may not know the details, but we are generally familiar with the practice. If one reads about the early Greek and Roman empires one finds that the seduction of young boys was widely known and practised. It is still the practice in many Muslim societies today. That climate is further enhanced, because those young boys are given preferential social status; they reap rewards and have powers conferred on them. That may seem an extreme example, widely divorced from the New Zealand scene. The only point I want to make is that it is possible to create environments in which the incidence of homosexuality can increase greatly beyond 10 percent; in the right climate it can be as high as 50 percent, or higher. I do not want to be identified with any law that opens the door to that remote possibility. I do not want to leave the House someday knowing that I have been a party to increasing the practice of homosexuality. It is possible that it could come in abundance; I am sure of that. I want to preserve in this country those elements based on the Christian society that preserve the right of children and the right of the home, and enhance the family. I do not believe that the Bill will enhance any of those elements - it will undermine them. It will also undermine the Christian religion. I do not believe in humanism, or that we live in a world in which human practice alone should rule supreme. I believe that religion is so much a part of man that when he divorces himself from it he lowers himself and exposes himself to practices some would call evil, but which to me simply mean that man degrades himself. I shall vote against every clause in the Bill, but I shall support the amendment that offers me the opportunity to raise the age of consent as high as possible. I propose to do that because I think the Bill will be passed, and that more people will support it than will vote against it to defeat it. I will regret that very much when we come to the vote. I shall vote for the highest possible age of consent amongst males, because not to do so would be to impose upon young boys the age of 16 as the age of consent. That, to me, would be regrettable. There is a difference in the age at which males and females reach maturity. To me, it does not follow logically that what is good for the young female is automatically good for the young male. Males mature more slowly, and if it is possible for me to protect young boys that is exactly what I shall do. I want to make a final plea. I do not believe that it is valid to feel that because something happens one has to accept it. We must all make judgments; that is why people put us in Parliament. As individuals we cannot divorce ourselves from moral judgments. Most people expect us to be moral and to bring a moral judgment to the House. As an individual that is exactly what I intend to do. NOEL SCOTT (Tongariro): I respect the integrity of the member for Awarua, and the fact that we disagree fundamentally on the issue is surely testimony to the need for tolerance and rationality of debate. In recent times the matter of homosexuality as a social issue has been matched in the New Zealand public arena only by the Springbok tour, in terms of fervour and division, extreme reaction, bigotry, and the absence of calm, reasoned debate. There are some interesting parallels. Each of the issues involves a widespread, longstanding, and, for many New Zealanders, seemingly inalienable conviction-first, that rugby assumes the place of paramount right; and, second, that male homosexuals are pooves to be despised and outcast. There is among New Zealanders a remarkable coincidence of opinion that is pro-tour and anti - Homosexual Law Reform Bill. Public opinion on both issues has undergone dramatic changes and has generated powerful lobby groups. The reasons that might explain that change are worth considering. I think it is a basic reaction to the overreaction from both extremes; a result of increased public discussion and education; and, significantly, because world opinion has finally expressed its pressure in New Zealand. A totally different argument is presented by each of those lobbies, and I want to consider them carefully. On the one hand, it is claimed that there should be absolute freedom for sports people to follow their favourite interest wherever they wish and with whom they wish. On the other hand, there is a belief that male adults must be legally prevented from homosexual acts, even if they are between consenting adults in private. I have drawn the above parallel because it closely mirrors my own opinion development. For some years I shared a common belief that rugby was supreme and that pooves were bad news. My change of opinion in both cases followed a conscious questioning of reality when placed against the wider social and international ramifications of the issue. To me the answer was clearly and irrevocably negative. Therefore I support the Bill in its entirety. Struggle as individual members might - and those who have the gracelessness to sit in the Chamber during such a debate and mutter inanities might think a little on this - the vote on the Bill is a conscience one. If members ever have the cover of referenda those decisions will not take away the conscience vote. There is no electorate machinery that adequately enables a member to cast a vote reflecting the majority opinion. Within the Tongariro electorate, which I represent, hundreds of opinions were expressed to and at me, directly, in about equal proportions. There were distinct variations between the rural areas and the urban areas, and between towns in different parts of the electorate. I acknowledge openly and sincerely that hundreds of humane and sincere people expressed strong emotions and opinions on both sides and extremes of the issue. I respect their opinions and their right to express them. I shall not interrupt other members who speak, as the member for Waikaremoana is trying to do to me. If they wish to translate their reactions into an antagonisticJIM MCLAY: I raise a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I ask the member on his feet to correct the assertion he made about me. I have not interjected once. NOEL SCOTT: I apologise to the member if that is so. I am sorry. Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER: Generally, members have been tolerant of other members, even when they have disagreed with them. Generally speaking, that is the tenor members would want in the debate. If members cannot restrain a desire to interject I suggest they should leave the chamber. TREVOR MALLARD: I raise a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I did not want to interrupt the member who was speaking, but I point out that the member for Whangarei interjected from a seat closer to the speaker than his own. It is important in a debate such as this that tolerance is shown, and that, at the very least, members do not shift closer to a speaker in order to interject. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I am aware of movement in the Chamber, and I have been watching various members who are inclined to interject more than others do as they have moved around the Chamber. I shall say no more than that. It would be most unfortunate in a debate of this nature if a member were to be required to leave the Chamber. I ask members to afford each other the tolerance that has been generally characteristic of the debate. NOEL NOEL SCOTT: I sincerely apologise to the member for Waikaremoana if I named him incorrectly. I entirely accept the right of people in my electorate to translate their reaction into an antagonistic decision at the ballot box, and if they do so I will not complain. Regrettably, the major petitioners against the Bill have discredited their cause. The supposed total of 800,000 signatures is an acknowledged question. I found the public presentation of the petition to be a frightening enactment of things that are anathema to most New Zealanders. Many people who signed the petition have said so to me. The invective and openly threatening demeanour and statements accompanying the presentation were distinctly unchristian. JOHN BANKS: I raise a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I refer you to new Standing Order 165: " Offensive or disorderly words - When any offensive or disorderly words are used, whether by a member who is addressing the Chair or by a member who is present, the Speaker or the Chairman shall intervene." I put it to you, sir, that pursuant to your last ruling about orderly conduct in a debate on a conscience issue, if that member persists in using words of that type strung into sentences against those good people who presented the 800,000 signatures to Parliament I will get disorderly - and that is a promise. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The member for Whangarei will not threaten the Chair in that manner. That is disorderly. If he wants to threaten disorder he will take the consequences of showing the disrespect for the Chair that that implies. As far as he has gone the member for Tongariro has not encroached upon the rules of the House, the rules of debate, and the rules of good behaviour that are generally required of members in a debate of this type. NOEL SCOTT: It is not my intention to do that. Most of all, the exercise of the petition, in my opinion, largely illegitimised many of the humane concerns of tens of thousands of New Zealanders who genuinely wished to debate and present their point of view while constructively tackling an issue that requires, above all else, rationality and humane decision making. Those petitioners caused many New Zealanders to decide eventually that the threat that some of the petitioners presented was even greater than that represented by homosexual acts. Clearly and irrevocably, the homosexual tendency is as genetically inevitable as genius, intellectual handicap, or the tendency to aggressive, excessive heterosexuality. Scientific and social research affirm that fact overwhelmingly. The natural range of sexuality is as totally inbred as that of intelligence. There is more than reasonable proof that the proportional distribution of reasonably hard-core homosexuals and excessively heterosexual males roughly approximates the lower and upper divisions of intelligence quotient distribution-about 10 percent, which is a reasonably normal distribution curve. Historically, society has tended to blame the individual for a quality or a feature that many fear or dislike or find themselves without-it is the old “blame the victim" trick. Examples are ugliness, alcoholism, mental illness, and - for too long in New Zealand-homosexuality. Sections of society have continued to want to persecute those who are different from themselves. Homosexuals have been subjected to such persecution more than any of the other groups I have mentioned. The very existence of the present punitive law that the Bill seeks to change proves that point. Sexuality is a basic driving human force; emotion, and much more; passion that is the heat of this issue. Public expectations and assumptions of what is normal in terms of sexual behaviour are steeped in mythology, custom, religious conviction, and straight mumbo jumbo. The Bill deals with that expression of sexuality that is most commonly regarded as abnormal-male homosexuality. As the present law operates, acts of male homosexuality are a criminal offence, even between consenting adults in private. The history of attempts to protect society and such men, supposedly from each other, has been a sorry one in terms of the law, in terms of social impact, and in terms of the social traumas involved. In terms of the law, it is honoured only in being ignored. What possible justification is there for such a law? In terms of social impact, there is widespread hatred and division, and this debate has exhibited just how trenchant and harmful those emotions can be. In terms of personal trauma, I suggest that every member's mail and every member's personal experience will have been touched many times by tragic individual examples. The sexual issue involved is central to, but not the only component of, the debate and the Bill. Unfortunately for many, the issue does not in any way seem to transcend the banal, the raw, the physical, the earthy, the seamy, or the aggressive. People paint pictures and seem to delight in them. That is sad, because were those people able to view the wider involvement of social dignity and equity, and, most of all, basic tolerance and even understanding and acceptance, the issue might then be publicly viewed with that combination of compassion and dispassion that is essential to calm and rational law making. Love is a much more complex passion and emotion than its mere physical expression. The sexual expression of a relationship is far more than the orgiastic component that gets so much attention now. If the law is to invade the bedrooms of the nation to put the whole matter of sexual behaviour and acts under scrutiny, let it logically extend its purview to include heterosexual and female homosexual relationships. Who is normal? What is normal? Is anal intercourse by heterosexuals acceptable? Research would indicate that it is apparently widely practised. What is depravity to one, deviance to another, bestiality to another, is another's delight. What is normal? Is sex for procreation only, as some would have us believe? I suggest that the judges of that might have a little difficulty working out who is holding to the law. Adults must decide for themselves what is normal for each of them. If there is infringement of personal standards beyond what is acceptable in terms of force or lack of consideration let the individuals involved find their own solutions-unless, of course, they need help and protection to do so, in which case the community must provide the support machinery. By and large, that is available now. Decriminalising an act, whether that act be adultery or blasphemy or acts of male homosexuality between consenting adults - that is, stating in law that it is no longer illegal - does not necessarily make that act attractive of itself or acceptable to others, let alone compulsory. To hear some of the points made in debate, one would expect that when such a law was passed everybody would be indulging in homosexuality. The law must, as it does now, continue to educate, to define limits, to apprehend, and to adjudicate in order to protect our young. The protection of our young is of central significance to every New Zealander. I accept that, and I am certain that that is true of all people, no matter what their sexual orientation. I contend that, far from impeding that vital aspect, the decriminalisation of male as well as female homosexual acts between consenting persons over the age of 16 years will allow a more balanced scrutiny of the range of indignities both homosexuals and heterosexuals inflict upon our young. The dangers are much more from heterosexuals-relatives, friends, and close acquaintances. In all seriousness I suggest that the attention of people, such as the many who signed the petition, should be directed at the social conditions and attitudes under which far too many of the aforementioned activities flourish. Efforts to isolate and deal with such activities must remain a high priority for the police, the social agencies, and particularly the families involved. I acknowledge that the 16-year age division is controversial. I contend as well that any other age limit would be controversial. No legal age limit will of itself prevent such acts absolutely. The passing of a law and the imposition of an age restriction cannot prevent it and make sure that it does not occur. I am amazed that the matter of female homosexuality has been conveniently ignored and its effects minimised. It is an issue central to the Bill both in terms of decriminalisation and, more important, the danger posed by acts and threats involving those under 16 years of age, and thus specified as being protected in the Bill. After very careful consideration, I support the 16-year age provision for several reasons. The arguments about equality of the sexes count heavily with me. The experience of the 16-year age of consent for women has worked reasonably well. That is, there is at least enough public acceptance of it not to have excited cries for change. Were there a need, there would have been large-scale and rapid cries for change. It would remove the unjustified legal expectation that one does not need to look after oneself until some later stage in life - that the law will protect people until they are 18, perhaps until they are 20, or, as now, for ever. Are we protected for ever now? The human rights aspect is the most straightforward. Basically, I believe it is inhuman and unacceptable that laws discriminate against any New Zealand citizen on the grounds of age, sex, colour, or sexual orientation. The basis of justice in all cases for all people must be whether they threaten, interfere with others, or break the laws that bind us all, and not just some. Great fear has been expressed about homosexual teachers. Let it be clearly understood that there are already a considerable number of those. The fear and tension under which they operate at present could only be relieved to the benefit of their charges were the law to be changed. In my experience - which I would say is not inconsiderable in this field-young people have been much more at risk from aggressively heterosexual teachers of both sexes, both physically and educationally, than they have been from those who are markedly homosexual. I say that in total sincerity. In conclusion, I contend that all actions of teachers or others that are dangerous or unprofessional should be dealt with decisively and immediately, whatever the sex, religion, or sexual orientation of those involved. There are no justifiable grounds for human rights discrimination against homosexuals. For that combination of reasons I give the Bill my full support. WINSTON PETERS (Tauranga): The member for Tongariro began by comparing the Bill and the Springbok tour. He said that those who supported the Springbok tour were strangely opposed to the Bill. I ask him whether he thinks the converse is true. If he does not, why did he raise that issue tonight on an entirely separate Bill? The overwhelming proportion of his electorate of Tongariro is opposed to the Bill, but he is entitled to cast his vote on the basis of his conscience. That is a fundamental principle of democracy, and I respect him for it. I am not opposing him on the grounds that he is out of step with his electorate. He is in step with his conscience. For that reason, those of us who have a different view should respect him. I shall begin by quoting the words of Geoffrey Weeks in a magazine called Coming Out: “The law does not create public opinion, but it does shape and reinforce it.” The member for Wellington Central said in the second reading debate - and I am paraphrasing what she said - that all the Western World had done it or was doing it, and so should we. If that is the case, why do we not follow other Governments' economic policies or defence policies, or is there something peculiar that means that we must do what the Government does on such issues but not what it does on issues of paramount importance to a greater proportion of humanity - to follow the Benthamite policy that used to motivate the New Zealand Labour Party and its socialist supporters? The member for Wellington Central then said that basic sexuality was like being left-handed or right-handed, and made the accusation that those who did not support the Bill were prejudiced, biased, or homophobic. I thank her for not repeating a claim she has made before - that Sodom and Gomorrah were merely practising a hospitality code. She made that claim against all the analysis of history, but dropped it in the second reading debate, and I thank her for that. She did not seek this time to identify famous men who are now dead and claim that there were what they were not. For that, the House should be grateful. TREVOR MALLARD: How do you know? WINSTON PETERS: I do not know, but I do not believe in damning people who are not here to defend themselves. The member for Hamilton West would not know about that. The member for Wellington Central then asked M. P. s to look beyond their own vague anxieties. We are expected to respect each other's points of view in the Chamber, yet the promoter of the Bill asks those who do not support her view to look beyond their own vague anxieties, as though they were not concerned about those people in their electorates who support the Bill. The member for Wellington Central said that members should follow the professionals and the experts. But what about the ordinary New Zealanders, the ordinary men and women? Are they not entitled to a voice in our democracy and in Parliament? They are not professional, and they are not expert; they are just ordinary New Zealanders, the salt of the country, the people who made the country and will always be the driving force behind our economic survival. The member said that research had shown - and I do not believe this, because I sat in the select committee for as long as she did, for more days than she did TREVOR MALLARD: Rubbish! That's untrue. WINSTON PETERS: -and for more days than did the member who is interjecting. TREVOR MALLARD: That's a lie. ROBIN GRAY: A point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker! WINSTON PETERS: I do not want a point of order; I can handle him. (Interruption.) DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I do not require any advice from any member-[Interruption.)-including the member for Invercargill . The member for Hamilton West will rise, withdraw, and apologise. TREVOR MALLARD: I apologise, and withdraw. WINSTON PETERS: The member for Wellington Central said that 25 percent of all men have had significant homosexual experience. As a redeeming feature, she said that not all are basically homosexually orientated. The member for Hamilton West said that 60 percent of men had had homosexual experiences. NORMAN JONES: Fifty percent. WINSTON PETERS: I believe that I have knocked around as much as any member of the House who is my age, and I do not believe that research. What is more, scientific analysis cannot substantiate such a claim. Both the member for Hamilton West and the member for Wellington Central know that. If the argument is meritorious, why falsify it? The member for Wellington Central went on to quote further from evidence given before the select committee. For that reason I shall analyse the committee's history. First of all there was a petition. The most outrageous claim I heard was that the men at Marsden Point-the men who have a strike record of independence against their own unions and against the Federation of Labour that is unparalleled - were being strong-armed into signing the petition. The member for Wellington Central made that claim in May 1985. If the arguments for the Bill are so meritorious why falsify the facts? According to the member, the men at Marsden Point were frog-marched into the place where the petition was held and told to sign it. When the Bill was before the committee in May 1985 there was a by-election. The committee's hearings were adjourned because the matter became politically embarrassing. If the arguments for the Bill are so meritorious why was a select committee of the House fiddled with and manipulated? Those who support the Bill - not those of us who have a different view-should answer that. If the arguments for the Bill are so cogent, powerful, and convincing, and if the majority of New Zealanders are for it, why was the committee examining the Bill manipulated? The position does not improve. There is logic to my argument-1 do not care what side of the issue people are on. If people support the Homosexual Law Reform Bill and believe it is meritorious the logic lies with the facts, not with somebody's human political behaviour. On 18 September the member for Hamilton West wrote to all Government members of Parliament. He was then the chairman of the select committee. He wrote 1/2 pages opposing the petition's coming before the committee. Did anybody ever act in such a partial, biased, and prejudicial way? I say again that if the arguments in support of the measure are so cogent, powerful, and meritorious, why did people act in such a fashion? Why did they pervert the parliamentary process? If the Bill stood on its own merits why did they pervert the select committee process? Let those members get up tonight and answer the allegations. I should not have to, because I am motivated for reasons that may, on the face of it, not be apparent, but before I finish tonight I shall explain that for me it becomes a matter of my background and the need to survive. RICHARD NORTHEY: Ha, ha! WINSTON PETERS: The member for Eden may laugh. I assure him that if medical science does not find a remedy for what we face he will not laugh in 2 years' time. If he has no conscience he might have a sense of responsibility. I was on the select committee when the matter came up for consideration-or, rather, should have come up for consideration. Government members sought to pervert the parliamentary process. There was no consideration of the matter before the committee, as there should have been. Expert witnesses on the final evidence were not called, and the committee, which had been convened to consider a matter that had generated more interest than any other, was shut down. NORMAN JONES: On a party vote. GEOFF BRAYBROOKE: I didn't vote for it. WINSTON PETERS: I did not say it was a party vote, but I say to the member for Napier that some people have rudely dealt with the support and the background of his party. That is a fact. The Deputy Prime Minister said that he would give select committees more power, and that they would be able to initiate their own inquiries. He said that minority reports would be permitted, and that we needed a real opportunity for the public to participate in the making of public decisions. JOHN BANKS: Who said that? WINSTON PETERS: It was said by the paragon of constitutional virtue, the Deputy Prime Minister. He used to give lectures about it. He has to sit here tonight knowing that what I am saying is true. He knows that it has happened in the way he said it would not happen, and he has not uttered a word of protest. The public needs a real opportunity to participate in the making of public decisions. The petition was signed by 800,000 New Zealanders. I do not care if 100,000 signatures are wrong, false, or fraudulent. That petition warranted due consideration and it received a vote of no recommendation. Trevor Mallard: 1 raise a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is my understanding that the select committee decision on the petition has not been reported to the House. I therefore ask whether that comment was in order. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I think the point is well made. The member is debating the principles of the legislation, and I think he tied his comments in reference to the petition to what he perceived as a principle in regard to the handling of the legislation. I ask him to confine his remarks to reflections upon the principles of the Bill. WINSTON PETERS: The principle I am talking about tonight is survival. That is a principle that has not been considered by many members in the House, and I do not believe it ever will be. If I am wrong I would be happy; but if I am right it will not be on my conscience. It will not be on the consciences of people who feel like me, but it will be on the consciences of those who would not face the facts before them, and they will live to regret that. I hope I am wrong. A woman called Kirsty Burnett, of the Lincoln College Students Association, wrote to me in total support of the Bill. I wrote to her on 28 May and asked what kind of survey she had done at Lincoln College. I am still waiting for a reply. A person from Victoria University wrote to me in support of the Bill, and I found that that person had surveyed 5 percent of the studentship. I am still waiting for a reply about how that person could demean the democratic voice of that institution and make totally false claims. I am still waiting for a reply about what the public of New Zealand feels. The Heylen organisation claims to have conducted a poll on how New Zealanders feel. The people who conducted that poll know full well-as does anybody who has ever studied political science - that that analysis was totally unscientific. They did not put before the people the full issues contained in the Bill. Did somebody seek to pervert the public voice in favour of the Bill? I am drawn inexorably to that conclusion. The Heylen poll made no mention of the human rights provisions, or of Part II of the Bill, yet the people who conducted that poll try to tell me that the public feels a certain way. A survey conducted in my electorate of Tauranga showed that 15,721 people had signed the petition. I do not mind that, because this issue is a conscience issue, and, in the end, people must live with their consciences. However, 15,721 people signed that petition, and a member opposed to me said that I live in a freak, cranky electorate. I want to talk about the issues that concern me. The leading witness told the select committee in submission 416 that he saw nothing wrong with homosexual marriage, or adoption, and that he would not go along with any law that prevented homosexuals from giving blood; I was appalled at that. He said he would be disturbed if educationists promoted heterosexuality. An article in the Auckland Star of 30 September stated: “Gay secondary school teachers will form a group to identify their rights and protections in the profession. The Post-Primary Teachers Association Sex Equality Advisory Committee will co-opt a group of lesbian and homosexual teachers to present the policy paper at next year's conference.” That is the hidden agenda. However, the Australian agenda was made public by Tim Maltby of the Australian Paedophile Support Group. He said: “The Australian community seems unwilling or unable to make a distinction between paedophilia and child rape. Can we develop a radical course of action to throw off the accusation that gay people are child molesters, fight the problems of rape, and accept paedophilia as a viable sexuality?” DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I must draw it to the attention of people in the gallery that they are not part of the debate. Therefore it is not in order for them to register any form of reaction. What they are doing is not in order, and they will not be allowed to stay if that continues. Neither is it appropriate for any member to address the gallery. WINSTON PETERS: I was not addressing the gallery. Mr Maltby did not end there. He said: “Childhood is the last bastion of patriarchal capitalism, and we must take up the struggle.” In conclusion, I believe that we are sitting on a medical holocaust that requires an answer to the problem long before we consider the concerns expressed in the Bill. Dr Goldwater, who spoke during an AIDS conference in Atlanta, said that we face a holocaust to match a nuclear holocaust. The only greater holocaust would be a nuclear holocaust. In Australia 1000 people already have AIDS. The member for Wellington Central said that we must go to San Francisco and see. People have been there and have noted that sexual diseases in San Francisco have increased by 2400 percent since the liberalisation of homosexuality. She cannot deny that - those are the facts. As at 22 April 1985, 3415 people had died from AIDS in New York City, and 1141 had died in San Francisco. Those cities have no laws against homosexual practices. On 16 August AIDS was said to be the top killer in New York. At the end of the day it is the duty of every member of Parliament to prevent a preventable evil, and for every New Zealander AIDS is still a preventable evil. If overseas evidence is any indicator and the Bill is passed, within 2 years AIDS will be the No. 1 medical problem in New Zealand. Some will say that sexual hedonism is more important; others will say that the greater public good lies in giving in to sympathy and to fine feelings. It does not. RICHARD NORTHEY (Eden): I was amazed to hear the previous speaker commenting on my response to his speech. I had been sitting with my pen poised to write down anything he might say to do with the Bill so that I could reply to it, but the pad is still empty. It is a matter of basic human rights - our ability as mature adults to allow other mature adults to express sexual activity that is basic to their own nature. It is a question of the right to develop and express one's own intrinsic nature. It is the ability to be able to give and to receive affection from others. It is a question of ensuring equal access for all people to basic needs such as employment and accommodation. I found it quite amazing to hear the previous speaker suggest that the passing of the Bill will bring on a holocaust and the collapse of human civilisation. Most countries have treated heterosexual and homosexual acts equally in law and in the role of the State for a very long time. In Spain, which has allowed both heterosexual and homosexual acts from the age of 12 for the past 150 years, the incidence of AIDS in the population is only one tenth the incidence in New Zealand, because people are able to seek and gain basic information, education, and responsiveness regardless of their sexual orientation. There have been suggestions about paedophilia being promoted. They are nonsense; that is not in the Bill. There have been suggestions that 50 percent of the people in the Middle East are homosexual, and the only reason given was that they are allowed four wives each. There is nothing in the Bill to allow people to have four wives, and Muslim teachings are based very much on the Old Testament. They proscribe homosexual acts just as strongly. In Iran the penalty for homosexual acts is death. PHILIP BURDON: What's that got to do with it? RICHARD NORTHEY: It has a great deal to do with some of the comments that have been made about the Bill. The fact is that about 10 percent of any population, regardless of its social structure, naturally expresses homosexual orientation. The submission of the Department of Health gave clear evidence that “Homosexuality is no longer considered within the medical and other health professions to be a disease. Increasingly it has come to be viewed as a normal psychosexual variant, one of a number of possible sexual orientations. An essential and integral component of mental health is the individual's sense of identity and self-esteem and his or her perceived value in society. This position underlies the frequent observations made in clinical practice that the major causes of mental distress found among some persons of homosexual orientation derive not from that orientation itself, but from the attitudes of the wider society and the laws which give them expression." The United States National Institute of Mental Health noted that the problems facing many homosexuals are caused by the need for concealment and the emotional stresses arising from the opprobrium of being in violation of the law. As with heterosexual orientation, there is strong evidence that homosexual orientation is formed in the very early years of life and that it is not a matter of choice for the individual. It is something like left-handedness, developed early in life and perfectly normal. It is ludicrous to suggest that something that is common to all societies is not normal. To go on and deny legal acceptance and legal rights to those who differ from us in only that respect when they cause no harm to others is ludicrous, grossly unfair, and shows a lack of respect. There has been much argument about the question of life-style, and the description of homosexuality as an alternative life-style in some ways derives from the obsession with sexuality that many in our society have. In most cases it is only the sexual component of their lives that is different, and even in that the methods in which it is expressed are in most cases the same as those for most heterosexuals. The suggestion that sexual orientation can be changed or determined by seduction or rape is as ludicrous for homosexuals as it is for heterosexuals. There is clear evidence that such events do not change basic sexual orientation and may leave permanent scars in terms of expressing sexual activity. It has been clearly shown that the attraction to sexual activity with children is an illegal and harmful variant as common among homosexuals as it is among heterosexuals, and to the same relevant degree. The question that really arises is the human right to be able to express affection, and on an emotional life for all people, rather than a continuing persecution for a characteristic over which people have no control. It is a question of mutual respect and acceptance of people as people, and the right to full participation in life. That is a stand that members should take on the evidence and on what is right or wrong. When I stood for Parliament I said quite clearly that I would support reform of the law that would ensure that homosexuals and heterosexuals were treated the same in law. I received 953 letters from my constituents in favour of the change and only 176 against change. Of those 953 in favour, 930 were in favour of the whole Bill, including the provisions of the human rights clauses and an age of consent the same as that for heterosexuals. The petition against the Bill was signed by many people on the basis of their sincere belief, but it is a fatally flawed document in many respects. The suggestion was made by previous speakers that the workers at Marsden Point would not succumb to such pressure. That is misleading. The macho attitudes prevalent in society mean that that is exactly the kind of pressure that the workers at Marsden Point could not stand up to. I have received letters that refer to similar pressure being applied. A woman who was terminally ill in a hospital in my electorate was pressured by her nurse to sign the petition. That was an invasion of her privacy and rights, particularly as she was totally dependent on another. She argued the point, did not sign the petition, and died within 24 hours. I urge members who may be considering voting against the second reading, because they are not yet convinced of the rightness of some parts of the Bill, to allow it to go forward. There is clearly a need to change a law that sentences to lengthy terms of imprisonment people who are carrying out activities basic to their nature. What may be regarded as a sin against God cannot be regarded as something for which such severe penalties should be provided in the law of the nation. There is a desperate need for change, and I urge members to vote for the second reading, and to consider the appropriateness of the amendments and the appropriate way to vote at a later stage. One of the key questions is the implication for the physical health of people. The Department of Health submission stated: “Physical health problems can result from promiscuous sexual behaviour in 'both homosexual and heterosexual persons by contributing to the spread of sexually transmitted diseases, such as syphilis. It should be emphasised that it is the promiscuity rather than the sexual orientation which is the crucial factor determining the transmission of such diseases.” The best way of reducing such practices is through effective education in a non-coercive environment. The December 1984 edition of the expert publication Sexually Transmitted Diseases found in New York that there is a lower proportion of sexually transmitted diseases amongst homosexual men compared with the general populace. That arises because they are intrinsically no more promiscuous and careless in their sexual activities than other people; and, of course, the publicity about AIDS effectively reached that population in areas where that activity was legal, and the incidence of disease rapidly decreased amongst that population. The extent to which promiscuous and dangerous sexual activities occur is related to the nature of the law and to myths that surround the issue. The views expressed in the House tonight about different levels of activity in other countries are related to those myths rather than to reality. World experts on AIDS have made the following comments. Dr Pearl Ma, the chief of clinical microbiology in New York, said: “New Zealand's laws and conservative attitudes against male homosexuality are a major problem in trying to combat AIDS.” Dr David Miller, a clinical psychologist and a leading researcher into AIDS prevention, said in Auckland in January of this year: “The single most helpful action the Government could take is to legalise homosexuality.” The AIDS Foundation and the New Zealand gay community have done a tremendous job in effectively educating the openly gay community about prevention and safe sexual practices. The problem is in the education of, and the dissemination of information to, practising homosexuals who keep their activity and orientation secret, and who also take part in heterosexual activities, often within a marriage. Unless the law and social attitudes are changed they will spread AIDS into the heterosexual community. Promiscuous and dangerous sexual activities, whether homosexual or heterosexual, must be prevented if the spread of AIDS in this country is to be prevented. The view has been expressed that homosexuality is an inferior sexual activity because the length of relationships is less and more promiscuous activity is engaged in. That is very much caused by the legal position. If that position were changed, those who are concerned to preserve families, whether the traditional family or a family that consists of a stable homosexual relationship, would be able to secure those relationships and make them more lasting and greater in depth. Many distressing examples of the effects of homosexuality in marriage were given in evidence to the committee in Auckland. There was one case of a woman who found out that her husband was a homosexual when she was rung from the police station and told of the activity for which her husband had been arrested. There was another example of a woman who sends her child to a special school outside her neighbourhood in an effort to prevent other pupils from describing the child's father as a criminal and a pervert. There is clearly a need to support a change in the law; having token laws is bad for respect for the law in general. For several reasons the age of consent should be the same for homosexual and heterosexual activities, and for boys and girls. It has been clearly implied that boys are more special than girls and need protection for a longer time. I reject the sexism inherent in that assumption. I am concerned that if the age of consent were raised to 20 years the dilemma of the young person uncertain of his or her sexual identity would intensify, and ability to seek counselling and advice would be greatly reduced. Given the harm that would be done to that group at a time when people are at their most vulnerable, I am not sure how I would vote if the age were raised so that that group was not given protection. The human rights aspect is also vital, and there are some misinterpretations about it. The law clearly states that people can say whether they are in favour of homosexuality or even if they regard it as a mortal sin. Discrimination in employment would still be possible on the basis of sexual activity; the law deals only with the question of sexual orientation. That is something that is not determined by the person; it is as intrinsic to the individual as one's sex or the colour of one's skin. If public attitudes are to be changed and real protection given to those people to enable them to play an equal role in society, it is essential that the law be changed. I urge Parliament to pass the second reading so that the degree of reform needed can be carried out. ROB STOREY (Waikato): I voted against the Bill when it was introduced to the House. Many people have written to me and asked why I did so. My answer has been that I voted against it because of the method and timing of its introduction. I voted against it because I believed it was introduced by the member for Wellington Central, the Junior Government Whip, with the full connivance and support of the Government, as a useful diversion from serious matters affecting our economy and our deteriorating position within the world family of free developed nations. I voted against the Bill because I objected to the way in which a measure that was studied at great length in Britain - where it was sifted, examined, considered, went to a royal commission, and then came back to the parliamentarians, who are really laymen elected to make laws, with a body of expert opinion on which they could rule - was brought before the New Zealand Parliament with very little expert opinion. I believed, as I still do, that that would have been the proper and correct action to take with the proposal. If that action had been taken, much of the damage that has been done between the homosexual and the heterosexual communities, and the rift that has developed which will not go away, no matter how we vote on the Bill - could have been avoided, and still could be avoided. If the matter were referred to a royal commission, an opportunity would be given to the many people who have been unable to have their submissions heard. More important, it would also enable people who are experts in particular fields of knowledge about which the House requires information to use their expertise to examine the submissions, to comment on them, to criticise them, and debate the subjects introduced, thereby arriving at a considered body of opinion on which the parliamentarians could work. That has not happened. Having gone through a lengthy select committee procedure we are in the process of debating a topic about which very few of us know a great deal. We have listened to facts that certain people describe as myths, if it suits them to, and other judgments have been made on the basis of individual experience and limited knowledge. If that is the way we as politicians and lawmakers are prepared to go about changing a most important law, it is little wonder that from time to time the people of New Zealand have a very low opinion of our reasoning and thinking capacity. No matter what decision is made, the debate will continue. If most New Zealanders do not accept the final decision after the debate, the estrangement that exists between the homosexual and heterosexual communities, which did not exist before the Bill was introduced, will be continued, heightened, and widened. The ostracism that is said to be felt by homosexuals will increase; it will not go away. I shall comment on the way in which I went about polling opinion in my electorate. Initially, a local newspaper conducted a postal survey, to which about 130 people responded. Of those, 90 wanted the law to remain the same, and 29 wanted the legislation introduced and the legalising of 16 years as the age of consent. That survey was conducted in March. The gay rights movement commissioned the Heylen poll in Huntly, and found, according to its poll of an undisclosed number of people, that 55 percent of the people in Huntly favoured a change in the law. I later undertook a poll of 400 people in my electorate. In that poll, 56 percent of the respondents were against a law change, and 44 percent were in favour. I then took an opinion poll of the churches in my electorate and found that seven of them were against change and four in favour of change. I finally came 10 perhaps the most important sector, the medical fraternity, and polled the doctors who practise in the electorate. Four were against change and five were in favour of it. The question was whether or not they felt that a change in legislation would help or hinder the containment of AIDS. I did not consider the petition presented on the steps of Parliament to be an extreme or reactionary document. I did not consider the way in which it was presented to be extreme or reactionary, any more than I found the way in which the gay rights movement went about its protest in most cases to be unacceptable. At times there were extremes on both sides. I deplore that kind of behaviour, which can only further divide the community. I noted with interest that 4580 people in my electorate signed the petition against the Homosexual Law Reform Bill. I have no evidence to show that any of them had been pressured to sign or that anyone who signed it did not understand what he or she was doing. I accepted that petition, as I accepted the petition of 56 staff members at the University of Waikato who asked me to support the correction of an existing law that effectively denied equal rights to homosexual citizens in New Zealand. I have had two conflicting petitions, and I acknowledge them both. I accept the viewpoint of the people who signed those petitions. I am opposed to both sections of the Bill as they are before the House at present. I understand some of the psychological problems of homosexuals who feel alienated from society. I have sympathy with their needs. I shall talk for a moment, not about the psychological condition of homosexuals but about AIDS, and mention a petition that was presented to the committee but was not heard. It was an expert submission from a surgeon who is involved in his day to day work with surgery in the rectum and anal areas. He has a particular knowledge of - and, I suppose, a particular concern for - the effect on medical people of the passing of the Bill. The surgeon was Geoffrey Wynne-Jones, who comes from the Hamilton East electorate, which may be of interest to the members for that electorate. He is a past president of the New Zealand Association of Part-time Hospital Medical Staff. That person very much regretted that he did not have the opportunity to go to the select committee to make known his expert point of view. I shall present to the House some of the information that he presented in written form and would have elaborated on had he been invited to attend that committee. Mr Wynne-Jones makes one or two points. The first is about one of the common dangers to nurses and doctors - the danger of needlestick. I have here a needle that is commonly used to extract blood from patients. It is one of the old type of needles. The person using the needle takes off the guard, places the needle in the patient, and withdraws the blood. By that stage the needle is probably infected. The person using it puts it back - with a bit of luck, into the guard - and does not damage his or her fingers. A good deal of luck is required, because the rate of needlestick injury to hospital staff as reported overseas is about 15 accidents for each 100 hospital beds. About 80 percent of those people are nursing staff; about 10 percent are theatre staff. Most needlestick accidents in the theatre involve potentially contaminated needles, knives, and instruments. One positive thing to emerge at last as a result of the grave concern of the medical profession about the disease of AIDS is a guard that can prevent needlestick. When the needle is put back into the guard the guard can go over the top, and, instead of the needle sticking into the hand of the doctor or nurse, it goes through into the guard, or it can be placed through the hole and the cover put back over the needle. I am told that doctors have been asking for many years for something like that to combat the effects of infection from hepatitis B. It was concern about the disease of AIDS, and the effect it can have on doctors and nurses and surgical staff, that led to the development of that device in New Zealand, so I suppose we can say that one good thing has come out of this real concern. Perhaps not too many other good things have come out of it. The concern expressed by Mr Wynne-Jones is that all sexually transmitted diseases-STD-are transmitted by anal intercourse, as is hepatitis B and AIDS as well. He noted that syphilis has almost been eliminated from the general population in the United Kingdom. Only one case of congenital syphilis was reported in the past year. There are still 3000 cases of adult syphilis in the United Kingdom, and nearly all of them are male homosexuals - and that in a country without restrictive legislation against homosexuals. A high proportion of male homosexuals become hepatitis A antigen positive within 2 years of becoming active as homosexuals. AIDS, both epidemic and endemic, parallels the behaviour of hepatitis B more closely than anything else. Neither disease is sexually transmitted, and neither should be labelled as sexually transmitted. AIDS may become endemic, in the fashion of hepatitis B, which has become a real worry in New Zealand. There have been several debates in the House indicating concern about the prevalence of hepatitis B in some parts of New Zealand. There is obviously a real link between hepatitis B and AIDS in homosexuals. One of the points made in that submission, which was not considered by the committee, was that, had the Wolfenden report been brought before the British Houses of Parliament at a time when a disease such as AIDS faced the country, it is unlikely that it would have been carried, because the thrust of that report was that sexual activity between consenting adults, when no damage was done to anyone else, could be accepted by society. Anal sex, whether it is homosexual anal sex or heterosexual anal sex, carries a major risk of AIDS, and there is a very good reason for that. I have here two photographs that I intend to table, and even from a distance most members will get the general idea of what I am saying. The one in my left hand shows the thin layer of secretory goblet cells that line the rectum, and there is a very thin lining across the top. The second photo shows the vaginal mucosa, which is a tough, thick, protective surface, 20 times thicker than the lining of the anus. If the committee had been prepared to hear what Mr Wynne-Jones had to say, it would have heard that his concern is that anal sex rather than homosexual activity per se between males is the major cause of AIDS. To pass legislation at this time that gives tacit approval to anal sex, until Parliament knows more about the ways in which AIDS can be contained, would be to give the wrong message to society as a whole about our concern regarding AIDS. It shows an acceptance of a means of making sure that the disease continues. I hope that members, particularly those members of the committee who did not have the opportunity to hear that submission, can take that point, because it is a very real one. It impresses me that a surgeon was prepared to stick his neck out and give some technical information to the House, which, as far as I know, has not yet been presented. I said earlier in my speech that I have a concern for homosexuals in New Zealand society, and that I deplore the way in which the Bill has been introduced. I shall vote against the Bill in its present form at all stages. However, if an amendment were moved showing that the House cannot give a signal to people that anal sex is a satisfactory method of sexual intercourse at a time when we are concerned about AIDS and know very little about the disease, but the amendment could in some way meet the needs of the homosexual community-because not all homosexual acts are related to anal sex-I would be prepared to consider supporting it. Hon. KORO WETERE (Minister of Maori Affairs): Te Hemana, ko koe te Rangatira o tenei whare. Tenei ra te mihi atu ki a koe, oti ra ki te whare e whakaaro nei ite kaupapa. Me ki ko te kau ma tahi pea te tau i whakaarohia ai i tenei whare i nei kaupapa. I tera wa ko te mema o waitotara te kaihautu o tenei kaupapa. I tenei ra ko hoki mai ke taku tuahine mana i kokiri ai i roto i te whare nei hei whakaarohia ai e tatou i te kaupapa e mahiotia tenei o tatou. Tuatahi kei te mihi atu ki a ia a me tatou katoa e whakaaro mei i te kaupapa e pehi nei ki runga i a tatou. Otira ite marama o Mei i tenei tau i tu ai te hui o nga Wahine Maori toko ite Ora ki roto o Heretaunga. I reira i tantokongia ai te kaupapa i roto i tenei pire. I tuhingia ai e au kia rateu, pehea o ratou whakero ki te kaupapa nei, me te te mohio ano ka nui tatou te iwi Maori kua tai ki roto ki tenei kaupapa. Ko taku i mea atu kia ratou, he taonga a o tatou matua me whakaaro atu ai e ratou. Maku e ki atu kei te mohio tonu tatou i nga taonga a o tatau matua mo tenei, e penei ana te korero. “He aha ra te mea nui maku ra e ki alu-he tangata, he tangata, he tangata." Ko wai o tatau hei whaka he i tera taonga i korerohia e ratau mai ra ano i te wa a tai ano ki te rangi rei. I runga ano i tenei rerenga korero ara i waihotia e ratou kei whea he korero maku ki te whaka turikina i tera whakaaro e hangatia e ratou. Tenei te whakaaro o to koutou mokai, “me tu ki runga ki nga kaupapa i waihotia e ratou ki te tantoko ai i tenei pire mai tona timatanga, a tae ano ki tona mutunga.” Noreira kei aku rangatira, tenei ra te mihi atu ki a tatou katoa e hui nei i teni po me te mohio ano te nuinga o to motu e whakaea ana kia penei tatou. Noreira tena koutou, tena koutou, tena ano tatou katoa. About 11 years ago the House considered an identical measureWINSTON PETERS: Not identical. Hon. KORO WETERE: O. K.-it dealt with almost similar circumstances and was introduced by the present member for Waitotara. I said in Maori that in May this year I had attended the annual conference of the New Zealand Maori Women's Welfare League, which unanimously endorsed the proposals contained in the Bill. The House will know that I have canvassed issues such as this with the league-for example, the Bills on adoption and abortion and have come to the conclusion given in a proverb left by our ancestors: " What is the greatest thing on this earth? Let me tell you, it is people, it is people, it is people.” I have chosen that proverb and could not depart from that philosophy. We have followed it to the letter on all occasions. Others in the House have spoken about human rights. I accept, as I am sure all of us do, that Maoridom has gone through many changes in the past 140 years, more particularly in the past 20 years. Maoridom has to accept that many of our people are now in this position. As the member of Parliament for Western Maori, I cannot afford to cast aside those of our people who have decided to take that upon themselves as their way of life. I therefore intend to support the Bill. I congratulate the member who introduced the Bill. She went through a traumatic experience. (Interruption.) I am sorry, but the member for Tauranga has had his opportunity and he can get another call during the Committee stage. There will be plenty of opportunities. I remind him of one simple fact, and ask where he stands in terms of the proverb I referred to. WINSTON PETERS: Man alone; survival. Hon. KORO WETERE: I asked about the proverb. Of course he would know where it came from. If he knew what it was all about and where it came from - its origins-I am sure he would have no difficulty with it whatsoever. I challenge the member about it, because it is well known in his district and to his people. Those people are to be admired, and if he is moving away from those principles I ask him to think again. I also ask him to consider the position of our people at present. He well knows that 75 percent of them are urbanised, and that 75 percent of them are below the age of 25 years. A great number within that age group have now joined this section of the community. I shall not deny the people who have chosen that course, but I simply say that Parliament has been called on to make a judgment and to pass a law that will give those people the right of choice. That is what I believe we are being asked to do. As I said before, I have considered this matter for some time. It is not the first time it has come before Parliament. This time round I think a sign of maturity had been demonstrated, and most people have come to accept the need for reform. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON (Papakura): I have seldom heard the Minister of Maori Affairs so defensive. Indeed, earlier in the debate I called to him and he knowsMr Gerbic: Get away from personalities. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: We heard from that member about a week ago and have forgotten what he said - and rightly so. I called to the Minister of Maori Affairs, who is the senior Maori Government member - and I see that he is being congratulated by the member for Mount Albert. I concede that this is a conscience issue and that he, of all members in the Chamber, has the authority, the prestige, and the seniority to speak for the Maori people, particularly as he has for many years - and I do not include the present year-managed the land affairs of the Maori Queen. Hon. K. T. Wetere: Oh, really! Hon. M. L. WELLINGTON: He protests, but that is so. I have joined the Minister on the marae on a number of occasions-for example, St. Stephens College, which is one of the premier Maori colleges. I use that word advisely, for it is primarily a Maori college and one of distinction and prestige. I have enjoyed the Minister's company and I have enjoyed his comments on occasions on the marae. By way of interjection I said to him, " Speak for the Maori people.” I was disappointed with his comments tonight, because in essence they were by way of prevarication; they were ambivalent and ambiguous. I wonder who has been at the Minister of Maori Affairs in recent weeks and recent months. Who has hammered him into shape? Is he speaking for the Maori Queen? Is he speaking for the four quarters? FRED GERBIC: I raise a point of order, Mr Acting Speaker. The member has been on his feet for 5 or 6 minutes, supposedly talking about the Bill, but he has not referred to any part of it. Instead he has referred to the previous speaker. I ask you to call him to order. ACTING SPEAKER (TREVOR YOUNG): Order! The member has not been speaking for 5 minutes - he has not quite finished his first 2 minutes. In any case, I think he was referring to some of the matters contained in the contribution made by the Minister of Maori Affairs. It is in order for any member of the House to do that. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: I record my disappointment at the contribution made by a senior Maori member of this assembly. WINSTON PETERS: The Minister used to be a senior member. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: That prophecy will be proved correct. Of all the people in the Chamber the Minister of Maori Affairs has the authority to speak for the Maori people. He did not do that. Who got at him? Does he reflect the views of the Maori Queen? Does he reflect the views of the four quarters? Every member in this assembly-excluding a few such as the member for Glenfield---will know to what I am referring. His speech would not go down at all well at St. Stephens College, Queen Victoria College, and Te Aute College, because the Bill does not serve the interests of our young people in any realistic or practical way. It calls for the legalisation of homosexual activities from the age of 16 onward. I mentioned St. Stephens College advisedly, because in 1962 I took up a position there as a teacher. I assure the Minister of Maori Affairs, who has a responsibility as the local member - which he shares with the member for Franklin - that his views would not be tolerated for 2 minutes on the marae of St. Stephens College, or its sister school, Queen Victoria College, in Parnell, Auckland. The Minister would be run off the property if he made a speech on either of those two marae such as he made in the House tonight. I am disappointed that the Minister of Maori Affairs has given the Maori people such a bad steer and a bad lead in the Chamber tonight. The time is now 10. 47 p. m., and the lights will be out in St. Stephens College. The member for Eden and the member for Tongariro - wo extreme liberals-may well scoff, but they will get their reckoning in due course. I am disappointed in the Minister of Maori Affairs, and I am sure that Mat Rata, who once sat in the House, would be equally disappointed. I am sure the honourable member for Southern Maori is bitterly disappointed, as her father would be, and I make no apology for bringing the ancestors of the honourable member for Southern Maori into the debate. The Minister of Maori Affairs made a disgraceful contribution to an important debate. He made such a contibution because he is a Minister in the Labour Government, which happens to embrace this latest piece of liberalism. The Minister of Maori Affairs thinks he owes his position in the Chamber to his mates in Cabinet and on the back benches. His greater loyalty should be to his own people. I pay tribute to the member for Hauraki, the member for Invercargill, and especially the member for Gisborne. I know the pressures that have been brought to bear on the member for Gisborne. He is in a marginal electorate, but he had the courage to say that that is what he believed in and what he believed his people sent him to do. That member is not like the Minister of Maori Affairs, who is under the Whips. He has been brought into line and he knows it, and tonight he merely regurgitates the party line. To the member for Napier, who tried for various Labour seats around the country and finally won the seat in Napier, I say “good on him”, because he had the courage to defy his party on the issue. I pay tribute not only to those four members, but also the people who have backed them and who have been damned in the House. Those people have no right of reply under the panoply of privilege in Parliament. People such as Keith Hay have been damned in the House for presenting facts and events. Government Members: Oh, oh! Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: There they go again-they damn those people and scoff. People such as Sir Peter TaitRICHARD NORTHEY: When will the member start talking about the Bill? Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: The member for Eden is in trouble. In Auckland we heard representations from various people, and the member for Eden and the member for Mount Albert did not ask a question or make a comment when the liberals and the lesbians came in, because they knew very well that if they did their arguments would be cut to pieces. If the member for Eden continues to interject I shall ask him where Ms Soich is. I suggest that the member for Eden keep his mouth shut, as the member for Hamilton West is advising him to do. I pay tribute to the people who brought the petition before Parliament. It was the largest petition in the history of the country. Those people sustained unprecedented attacks in the House. I pay tribute to them, as I do to the four members who backed them. They have no privilege within the panoply of this particular place. As I have listened to the meandering speeches in support of the Bill I have been reminded of the eighteenth century political philosopher, Edmund Burke, who wrote 200 years ago: “The concessions of the weak are the concessions of fear.” In the past 10 days I have read that the member for Ohariu has polled his electorate and it has told him what to do. That is a concession of the weak. I have heard of the confusion of the member for East Cape, who said that she had polled her electorate and that she had thought she was for the Bill, and then she was against it, but she had polled her electorate and now she was for it. What integrity! In 1980, on another issue, at a different time, the people in my electorate said to me at an electorate meeting that unless I voted the way they wanted me to vote they would fix me. Members on this side of the House will know of what I speak. I told them that they had sent me to Wellington, and if they did not like what I had been doing they could follow that course. I am still here. I will not deal with that issue, but simply say that it was in 1980, and after two terms as Minister of Education-when my two immediate predecessors, both Labour and National, were cut short in their electorates - I say to the member for East Cape and the member for Ohariu, “Stick to your guns”. The member for Glenfield should stick to her guns. Do what is right; do not obey the dictates of an amorphous mass. The member should do what she thinks is right on a conscience issue. The Minister of Customs polled her electorate and had her mind shored up–God bless her. She should stick to her guns. I say to those members and to the people out there - the people who brought the petition and the people who did not sign it, perhaps because they did not have the chance or did not want to, because they were not seized of the importance of the matter - " Obey the dictates on what you consider to be a conscience issue when you stand before the supreme body of the country, Parliament.” The member for Ohariu has changed his mind; the member for East Cape has changed her mind; the member for Glenfield has changed her mind; and the Minister of Customs has changed her mind. The concessions of the weak are the concessions of fear: they are fearful for their electoral hides. What a way that is to make decisions affecting the people of the country, and in particular the young people! I referred earlier to St. Stephens College. I went to a boarding school, as did many members. I repeat what I said when the Bill was introduced - that to fix the age of consent at 16 years will be to sow not just the seeds but the actuality of discord and dissent in school after school across the country. Government Members: Ha, ha! Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: Government members may laugh: do I see the Minister of Internal Affairs smiling wryly, or does he agree, and believe in what I am saying? A 16year might be in form IV or form V, or if a young person is fairly bright he may be in form VI. If homosexuality is legalised at form IV, form V, or form VI, the seeds of discord and dissent will be sown from the far north to the deep south. The Minister of Internal Affairs knows that what I am saying is correct, and that is why the Minister of Maori Affairs has Aed the Chamber. THE ACTING SPEAKER (TREVOR YOUNG): Order! I remind the honourable member that he may not refer to the absence of any member. He understands why members leave the Chamber, and it is disorderly to refer to a member's absence in that way. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: The Minister has departed on urgent public business; I can see why, and I do not blame him. I have referred to Edmund Burke's comment on the concession of those who are fearful. He also said that something may look specious in theory but be ruinous in practice. That is the burden of my argument. If the Bill introduced by the member for Wellington Central was the alpha and omega of human male and female relationships, what is it that gives her a monopoly on human wisdom in 1985? The member for Hamilton West is discomfited. Politics and political fortunes come and go, but one thing is certain in the political life of this country - the member for Hamilton West will be gone within the next 2 years. He is finished as a representative within the House. He is ancient history before his term has finished. The member for Mount Albert, the member for Wellington Central, and all those other fair-weather friends of everybody and everything who change their minds, have polls, and say they will decide when they know what their constituents think, are also finished. The people know what Burke knew a long time ago - that something may appear specious in theory but be ruinous in practice. If that were not so, why did some enlightened lawmaker not bring this measure in many years ago and have it passed in the Chamber? It is because the theory is specious and the practice would be ruinous, and most New Zealanders know that. They are suspicious of measures brought into the House by a Government Whip under the guise of a private member's Bill. TREVOR MALLARD: Here we go. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: That is why, apart from the member for Napier, the member for Southern Maori, and the member for Gisborne, Government members have been whipped into line. This measure was introduced at a time when the economy was doing badly, and when the ANZUS debate and a few other foreign policy issues were warming up. The member for Wellington Central, who is the Junior Government Whip, said she would bring in a private member's Bill to take people's minds off all this nonsense. Unfortunately, it is not nonsense. They are serious and weighty matters foreshadowed 2 centuries ago by people such as Edmund Burke. The people of succeeding generations were warned by Burke and others not to go down that road and other roads of like description. It is as simple as that. I have heard a lot about rights - the right to do this and the right to do that. I have heard nothing about responsibilities. Let us forget the adult population and think about the 16-year-olds, the 15-year-olds, the 17-year-olds, and the 750,000 pupils in primary, intermediate and secondary schools. What about their rights? TREVOR MALLARD: Mr Speaker. ACTING SPEAKER (TREVOR YOUNG): Is this a point of order? An Hon. Member: Time's up. ACTING SPEAKER (TREVOR YOUNG): I have not rung the bell yet. WINSTON PETERS: I raise a point of order, Mr Acting Speaker. I understand that under the Standing Orders the member on his feet is entitled to go to the allotted time. That is a historic and well publicised provision. No bell has been rung, but the member for Hamilton West was on his feet like a jack-in-the-box. ACTING SPEAKER (TREVOR YOUNG): Order! I think members were reading my hand signs. The member has 5 seconds left. I did not ring the bell. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: I have heard nothing from the proponents of the measure about the responsibility of people. Debate interrupted. The House adjourned at 11 p. m.

IRN: 3845
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_homosexual_law_reform_bill_second_reading_9_october_1985.html
TITLE: Homosexual Law Reform Bill - second reading (9 October 1985)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 9 October 1985
YEAR: 1985
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 9 October 1985, New Zealand Parliament. FRAN WILDE (Wellington Central): I move, That this Bill be now read a second time. When I introduced the Bill I was anxious that the public debate should be maintained at a rational level, because I believed that the process of learning about the issue, and of subsequent change of attitude-which I have undergone over some years - would be able to occur in the community only if the facts were presented clearly and stripped of the emotional claptrap that usually accompanies discussions on homosexuality. In retrospect, it was a forlorn hope. When the ingrained prejudices of the community are examined, and when the conventional methodology is challenged, it is an unsettling experience for any society. Confronting one's own ignorance, misconceptions, and prejudice is no less difficult for a group than it is for an individual. The debate has been emotional, and from many quarters it has been a vicious attack on the very beings of 10 percent of our citizens and on the families and friends who give those citizens their love and support. After being the object of a bitter hate campaign myself, and experiencing some of the hot breath of hatred that is breathed on gays and lesbians from the extreme “homophobes” in our midst, I have come to accept that there is a minority of people in our community who do not want to discuss the facts. They are not interested in seeking social justice through truth. They have a personal and political agenda that deliberately plays on the genuine concerns expressed by many New Zealanders who deserve better than to be used as pawns and kept in ignorance of information that would allay their fears. I hope that during the second reading debate members of Parliament and the public will take advantage of the opportunity they will have to listen to factual information. I mentioned challenging the mythology on homosexuality, and tonight I shall consider some of the more destructive of those myths, particularly those on which the select committee was given evidence by credible and qualified witnesses. There has been much discussion about the possible effects of the decriminalisation measure that I am proposing. Without exception, those who opposed the Bill, either publicly or at the select committee, used as their ominous example of social decay the city of San Francisco. I do not want to dwell on the arguments they put forward, but I must say that if some of the most vociferous opponents of the Bill would take the trouble to visit that city and speak with the senators, congressional representatives, public health officials, and doctors, as I did recently, they might speak a little more sense and a little less garbage. I am curious to know why we do not hear such talk about other places where decriminalisation has occurred. New Zealand is one of the few countries in the Western World where men who engage in consenting homosexual activity in private are liable to imprisonment. Why do we not hear cries of outrage and horrific examples from Scotland, Spain, Italy, Germany, and other states of America, such as Alaska and West Virginia, where the change has occurred and the sky has not fallen in? I know that many members accept the need for reform and decriminalisation but are concerned that the age of consent of 16 is too low. I understand their concern, because a long time ago when I first started looking at the possibility of initiating legal reform I had many questions to be answered on that issue. One of the first issues that members should examine is that of the formation of sexual orientation. The select committee heard evidence from several professionals in the medical and psychiatric field who said quite categorically that international opinion no longer views homosexuality as a disease but as a psychosexual variant - one of several possible sexual orientations. The New Zealand Department of Health has drawn attention to the frequent observations made in clinical practice that the major causes of mental stress found among persons of homosexual orientation derive not from the orientation itself but from the attitudes of the wider society and the laws that give them expression. None of the reputable professional groups who have any interest in the issue, either here or overseas, accept that there is a cure for homosexuality People can be persuaded to modify their behaviour and choose celibacy, or perhaps heterosexual activity; and others who are bisexual or basically heterosexual can give up homosexual activity; but basic sexual orientation is as much a part of us as is being lefthanded or right-handed, or, in some cases, ambidextrous. Opponents of the Bill have made much of a so-called " ex-gay” movement in the United States. When I was there a few weeks ago I discovered that a number of prime examples still touted as success stories by the “ex-gay” movement have found it too difficult to maintain the self-delusion and are now gay rights activists in the United States. A booklet was recently published purporting to describe the social effects of homosexuality in New Zealand. No doubt some members will have a copy of this little grey book. It draws heavily on sources such as Enrique Rueda - a priest who is so rabidly homophobic that most major Catholic book stores in the United States refuse to stock his work - and an organisation called ISIS, the brain child of an American called Paul Cameron, who was expelled from the American Psychiatric Association for his excessive campaign against homosexuals. He manufactured cases and used lies and misinformation to back up his extravagant claims. The book also cites Masters and Johnson, whose highly questionable methodology involved claims of cures amongst a group of married bisexuals who had marital problems and were seeking to repress their homosexual tendencies. Some of them had managed to remain celibate or solely heterosexual for about 6 months. I was interested to see that the book begins with the testimony of a so-called former homosexual, Mr Gavin Johnstone of Christchurch. Members may like to know that Mr Johnstone appeared before the committee in Christchurch-I presume it was the same person - and in response to questioning from committee members said he thought homosexual behaviour should be decriminalised, but he was uncertain whether the age of consent should be 18 years of age or 19 years of age. It is clear that basic sexual orientation is formed in the early years of life. Usually by 12 or 13 years of age a gay young person has realised that he or she is different from the peer group. In many cases those feelings are not explicitly identified until much later because of a lack of access to any points of reference. When they are identified they are almost invariably suppressed, because youngsters know that our society is aggressively heterosexual and they fear being the victims of so-called “queer baiting", which is evidently not uncommon amongst teenagers in their desperate desire to conform. Many teenagers and older people do have homosexual experiences, but that does not affect their basic heterosexual orientation. Social research has indicated that as many as 25 percent of all men have significant homosexual experiences over 3 years. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. An important debate has just been terminated as a result of Government pressure. People are tired of such garbage under the guise of a private member's Bill. I suggest that the House get on with the important business of the country. Mr SPEAKER: There will undoubtedly be repercussions if the member abuses the point of order system in that manner. Would the member for Wellington Central continue. FRAN WILDE: As I was saying, social research has indicated that as many as 25 percent of all men have had significant homosexual experience over 3 years between the ages of 16 and 55, but not all of those men are homosexually orientated, nor do they wish to be so, nor are they pushed into a homosexual orientation through that activity. I shall quote verbatim what Dr Hall and Dr Dobson from the Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists said when questioned by the committee: “Evidence is strong that the direction of sexuality in almost all people is determined pre-school. The suggestion that the seduction of adolescents is likely to be a major factor in determining subsequent sexuality is not supported by evidence. It is one of the common popular myths and does not fit in with other information on the determining of sexuality. We do not see any medical reason for having a different age of consent.” Members will realise that a legal age of consent is an arbitrary thing. In Catholic Spain it is 12 years of age, whereas in other countries it ranges up to 20 years of age. In New Zealand it was originally 12 years of age. It was raised to 14, and is now 16 years of age. Most countries have an age of consent to protect young people during what is considered to be a vulnerable age of physical and emotional development. In New Zealand there is at present technically no age of consent for males. We accept that by 16 years of age females are old enough to determine whether or not they wish to engage in sexual activity, and that both men and women can decide whether they wish to undertake the responsibilities of marriage and parenthood by the age of 16. I must admit that over the past few years as my own children have grown into teenagers I have realised that the more removed one becomes from the age of 16 the younger it appears to be. However, I have to say, as one who was married at 19 years of age, that I can hardly have cause to say it is too young. The question we have to decide is whether or not a community has a right to say that although some people can make those kinds of decisions at 16 others cannot, with the deciding factor being not the psychological maturity of the individual but his or her sexual orientation. Some people have suggested that girls are more mature than boys at that age, but the law allows young men to engage in heterosexual activity. Once again I quote from the statement by the Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists: “There is no significant evidence that at age 16 young women have more ability to distinguish the consequences of their behaviour than do young men. At a younger age females may advance more rapidly, but this is more in terms of social competence rather than cognitive ability." There is simply no argument for a discriminatory age of consent. I ask members to look beyond their own vague anxieties, conditioned over many years, to scrutinise carefully the anecdotal and undocumented stories presented as evidence against an equal age of consent. I ask members to listen to the social research, to the clinical experience and knowledge of professionals, and, most particularly, to the voices of thousands of gay men and lesbian women who lived in misery and fear throughout their early adulthood. Members who are uncertain about that critical issue would be well advised to read some of the excellent submissions made on the Bill. The Department of Justice summed it up thus: “The weight of current medical opinion, as indicated in the submissions, is that sexual behaviour in the younger adolescent years, much less at 16 years of age or older, does not result in heterosexual boys developing a homosexual orientation or vice versa. It is generally agreed that by the age of 16 years sexual experiences tend to confirm an existing sexual orientation. Evidence given to the committee by many homosexual men, both young and older, almost without exception confirmed that medical and academic opinion.” As for the supposed connection between homosexuality and paedophilia-an implied threat to younger boys if homosexual activity is decriminalised for adult males-no evidence was supplied to the committee to support that assertion. However, there is plenty of evidence to show that paedophilia and homosexuality are distinctly different phenomena with no provable link. The other major issue I wish to deal with tonight is the proposed amendment to the Human Rights Commission in Part II of the Bill. Some extravagant statements have been made about that proposal. I have heard people say that clergy will no longer be able to preach that homosexuality is wrong, that parents will be prohibited by law from passing on their own moral values to children, and that teachers will be obliged to promote homosexuality to youngsters. None of that is true. Many opponents of the Bill have also claimed that although they love homosexuals they simply hate what homosexuals do. Such generosity of spirit is catered for by the Bill. First, the Human Rights Commission Act, unlike the Race Relations Act, does not intervene in the matter of speech. People will still be able to say what they like. It is concerned with actions such as the provision of jobs, housing, or goods and services. Secondly, it is important to note that the proposed addition to the Act would forbid discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation. Members should read the definition clause carefully. They will find no reference in it to behaviour. It talks of a person's affectional preference, whether it be homosexual, heterosexual, or bisexual, and it includes any characteristic imputed to a particular sexual orientation. The Department of Justice summed it up thus: “The weight of current medical information as indicated in the submissions is that sexual behaviour in the younger adolescent years"-I am sorry, I have reverted to a previous part of the speech. (Interruption.) If Opposition members were quiet they might hear something instead of trying deliberately to provoke me, as they have been doing throughout the Bill's debate. The best exposition of the probable effect of the Human Rights Commission amendment is in the submission presented by the law faculty of Victoria University. The submission was signed by all but 5 of the 30 or more lecturers and professors at the law school. It gave unqualified support to the Bill and explained carefully the legal ramifications of Part II. A supplementary submission requested by the committee went into more detail. It compared the proposal with human rights legislation of this nature that has been enacted in other countries. It said: “The law, if amended, will not coerce people into accepting behaviour or activities of which they disapprove.” The law faculty members went on to say that clause 9 was much less far reaching in its potential impact than corresponding provisions in legislation they had studied from elsewhere. I strongly recommend that members read that particular submission if they are having difficulties with Part I of the Bill. I believe that this provision will serve as a trigger to start a major change of attitude in the community. For example, employers will no longer be able to say: " I'm not employing you because you are a lesbian, and I don't like lesbians.” Even if that individual employer manages to find another excuse for not employing a person-and we have seen with other provisions in the Human Rights Commission Act that it is not too difficult to do that-he or she will none the less be forced to face up to that prejudice, to have to make an excuse about that attitude to other human beings. In the end, it is attitudes towards one another that count in making a plural society work. Legislation can go only a certain way towards making our social system work properly. I believe that current opinion in New Zealand is more sensitive to discrimination against gays and lesbians than it has ever been. Certainly the opinion polls bear this out. Heylen polls taken over the past 6 months have shown a steady and consistent increase in support for the legislation, now running at around 62 percent of the population. Members should not be misled by a vociferous minority who claim that the people of New Zealand are opposed to the measure, or that the claimed 800,000 signatures to a petition against the Bill represent an informed, considered, and freely offered expression of support from the adult community. Many New Zealanders living quiet and productive lives in the towns and cities of our nation are relying on Parliament to vote to give them their basic rights in law. Members who are considering voting against these people-amongst whom may well be family members, friends, and workmates, perhaps unknown as homosexuals - should consider very carefully the impact on our community and on those friends and family members if the Bill should fail. Hon. VENN YOUNG (Waitotara): I have little enthusiasm for the manner in which the mover of the Bill has put her arguments before the House. She knows that the matter being considered is sharply divisive. She talked about the entrenched opposition to her point of view, and derided unnecessarily the opinions of those who opposed. She considers a petition with 800,000 signatures presented to the House to be of little account. I believe that she goes too far with her proposals. I say at the outset that Opposition members will speak and vote on the measure according to their consciences. The matter has not been considered by the Opposition caucus as a caucus, other than to consider and to criticise the manner in which the select committee was cut off at the knees and not allowed to complete its task and report to Parliament in what would normally be the proper way. That being so, the measure is now before us, and as individuals we have to determine, according to our consciences, whether we will support or oppose the member's proposals. The reform of laws pertaining to homosexual acts in private relates to the criminal code and not to morality, or public principles or attitudes. Parliament can no more legislate for private morality than it can for public acceptance of conduct that the public in general finds unacceptable. The present law in the Crimes Act is criticised because it is seen to do the former, while I believe that the proposal of the member for Wellington Central to change the law attempts to do the latter. The member and those who support her are wrong in seeking to equate the law on homosexual acts with heterosexual acts. In addition, Part II of the Bill obviously seeks public acquiescence for the argument that homosexual life-styles and heterosexual lifestyles are equally acceptable except for the sexual orientation of the people involved. I do not believe that that is so, and members are foolish if they do not recognise the sharp division of opinion in the community on that matter. I do not accept that many of the so called " gay community” live in that state of mind. The word " gay" is a far cry from the problem that many people have with sexual orientation. Those people need our understanding, and we should not place upon those adults the additional burden of the fear of conviction and criminality. I limit my support for the decriminalisation contained in the measure as it applies to the adult homosexual. I shall only support legislation that provides for an age of consent of 20, and no lower. I am not a prejudiced person, but I cannot accept Part II. In presenting a measure that is so wide in its implications, the member for Wellington Central has made more difficult her task of bringing homosexual law reform to Parliament in a way that is acceptable to Parliament. I reiterate that all Opposition members will speak individually according to their consciences, and will vote similarly. I have indicated my attitude to the Bill. GEOFF BRAYBROOKE (Napier): I rise with some reluctance to speak on the Bill, which, without a doubt, has divided the Chamber and the nation. It has divided all churches, some of which have made formal statements that have met with anger and dismay from some of their parishioners. It has divided communities; it has even divided families. Nobody would deny that it is a very divisive Bill . It was launched suddenly upon the House. No one before the previous election sought a mandate to introduce it. I cannot recall any member of the House saying as a candidate that he or she would introduce the Bill. I certainly had no knowledge of it if any did. I am certain that members of the voting public, when they cast their votes, did not think of homosexual law reform as one of the reasons they should or should not vote for a particular candidate. I listened carefully to the member for Waitotara. The Bill he introduced a few years ago, or a similar Bill, would have been far more acceptable had it been introduced today. The “live and let live" attitude of the average New Zealander is well known. I believe that citizens overwhelmingly are prepared to live and let live, but the Bill goes far beyond that. My own research has shown that most of the constituents I represent bitterly resent the cloak of respectability that the Bill attempts to give to homosexual activities. They also resent Part II, which I consider to be the worst and most ominous part of the Bill. It is unacceptable to suggest to average New Zealanders-not all of whom profess to be practising Christians - that homosexual attitudes and values are equal to the attitudes and values of heterosexuals. I do not care if the Bill is passed; I believe that public attitudes will not change in my lifetime, because many people - and they are not religious bigots - find the actions of homosexuals repugnant, and they do not want to know them. It is unacceptable to claim that homosexual values are equal to heterosexual values. I know that obviously the gay community does not agree with that, but my own electorate has shown clearly how it feels. My electorate reflects my own opinion. A random poll of more than 500 people was conducted - not by me, but by a reputable person and organisation-and more than 72 percent of those people rejected the Bill. I realise that provincial New Zealand is probably more conservative than the four main centres. JOHN BANKS: Thank God for that. GEOFF BRAYBROOKE: I agree. The mere fact that something is done by consenting adults in private does not remove the matter from public morality. If that argument is used, and taken to its logical conclusion, it might as well be said that consenting adults over a certain age can practise incest in private because that is their sexual orientation. That is totally unacceptable. I have attended several public meetings since the Bill was first introduced. When the Bill was introduced my conduct was possibly not the best. I am a human being. I felt intense anger and disgust for the Bill. I realise now that that is not the attitude of responsible politicians; we must listen to all sides of an argument and not allow our prejudice to blind us. I went to those public meetings hoping to learn something, but they were an utter shambles. The hatred displayed on both sides had to be seen to be believed. Anybody who genuinely believes that the gay community is passive, quiet, and gentle should have been at those public meetings. I was disgusted to see Salvation Army officers called fascist pigs when they stood up to lead a meeting in prayer. They were insulted, and blasphemies were thrown around freely. Chanting and insulting calls were the order of the day. Speakers whom they obviously did not want to hear were not given the courtesy of a hearing. They may have thought they were being hard done by. Well, so be it. At two of those meetings we allowed representatives of the gay community to come up to speak. The incredible thing was they were heard in absolute silence, but when speakers against their activities tried to give their point of view they were drowned out time and time again by filthy abuse. Putting aside the rights and wrongs of the argument, the gay community has shown that it is out to get its own way come hell or high water. It did not do its cause any good whatsoever. There has been a great deal of discussion about the petition. I was involved in its launching. Attempts have been made to discredit it. I do not know whether the 800,000 people who signed it were over 16, of sound mind and limb, and knew what they were doing. How could I? But even supposing, for the sake of argument, that half of the signatures are invalid--and I do not believe they are - the petition is still the largest ever to be presented to the House. For the first time in living memory, in my own electorate, members of the National Party, the Democratic Party, and the Labour Party joined forces to go out and seek genuine signatures on that petition. I am certain that the signatures collected in the Napier electorate were genuine. The Bill reaches across party affiliations. That is enough criticism. I shall now say what is wrong with the Bill and why it should not be allowed to proceed. There are many moral reasons that Christian folk far better than I could put forward. I do not in any way pretend to be a paragon of virtue; I will leave that to others. I notice that some members are smirking. I am serious when I say that if the Bill is passed it must not in any way be allowed to be applied to the armed forces--that is, the Army, the Navy, and the Air Force. It would have a detrimental effect upon the discipline of the armed forces. As a member who has had military experience - and I think this applies also to the Minister of Energy, the member for Tamaki, and the member for Invercargill - I say that strict discipline in the armed forces is necessary if they are to be effective. Soldiers, sailors, and airmen accept a superior authority without question. Discipline is a fragile thing, and it could be disastrous if discipline were affected as a result of people entering into gay relationships in the armed forces. Also there is a lack of privacy in the armed forces. All of us have been in large barracks where about 30 people are packed in, or on a ship where they are slung hammock to hammock. Rightly or wrongly, many people in the armed forces despise gays, and a serious breakdown in discipline could occur. I have seen many a fight in barrack-room because a person wanted to commit a homosexual act with someone who resented the advances. Another reason why the Bill must not apply to the armed forces is that in combat every soldier is a walking blood bank. The Falkland Islands war proved that beyond any doubt. Medical services are at the front line. Every soldier knows his blood group - he wears a tag stating it. The effect on morale would be devastating if soldiers, sailors, or airmen refused an instant blood transfusion on the battlefield because of their fear of contracting AIDS. There is no time to check the blood for AIDS. It is essential that the Bill does not apply to the armed forces. Also, it should not apply to members of the police, for similar reasons, if disciplined law enforcement is to be maintained. Nor should it apply to prison officers. It could be disastrous if it did. If it is applied to the armed forces “Kiss Me Goodnight, Sergeant-Major” could well become a reality. The Bill has highlighted the urgent need for extended research into all aspects of homosexuality, and the member for Wellington Central only touched on that subject in her address. If the Bill becomes law, any chance of conducting proper scientific medical research into the causes, effects, or needs of homosexuality will be brushed aside. We need to do what other countries have done before changing the law. In the United Kingdom a royal commission of inquiry was appointed that produced the Wolfenden report. It is essential that there be a royal commission of inquiry into all aspects of homosexuality before the Bill becomes law. It is not beyond our wit to select men and women to sit upon that royal commission. They can be drawn from a wide section of the community. They should be given the broadest terms of reference, and, if necessary, be allowed to travel overseas to see what has happened in other countries that have changed the law. When the royal commission has deliberated it should then publish its report. We can all learn. No member knows enough to cast a valid vote in favour of the Bill. After the commission has published its findings for the betterment and education of us all, there should then be a general referendum. No one has a mandate to introduce the Bill or pass it into law. The referendum should be held at the next election. We have about 2 years to organise it. That should be enough. Let the public decide after reading the royal commission's report. I say that the referendum should be held at the time of the next election, not to scare the hell out of every member who may feel a cold draught around his majority, but because it is much simpler to hold a referendum at a general election. We already hold one every 3 years on the liquor issue. Homosexuality is a topic for New Zealand to decide on. I know that people will say that we come here to govern and that a referendum cannot he held on everything. However, no Bill has divided the nation as this one has. There will be a backlash from the community if we do not hold a referendum. The Bill will not go away; the matter will be overcome only if a referendum is held. Let me enlighten the House about something many people do not realise. In the United Kingdom homosexual activities in private between two consenting male adults are not an offence, but members may be surprised to know that they are an offence if three are involved. I wonder if we will amend the Bill later. The Bill will allow three, four, or five people to commit homosexual acts together. The British law does not allow that, and the provision should be the same here. As I said at the beginning of my speech, the Bill has divided us. I freely admit that many people on both sides of the argument have been extreme, but one of the fears that has surfaced is that the Bill is the thin end of the wedge. I have a cutting from the Hawke's Bay Herald-Tribune of 4 June, which states that a gay church pastor is waiting for the Bill to be passed so that he can apply for the right to perform gay marriages. I know that many people reject that idea and say it will not happen, but who knows? I find the idea repugnant. I do not want any Bill that provides that men may marry one another to be passed into law. It is unnatural and immoral. In closing, I appeal to the House for reason; I appeal to the House not to show hostility and not to have a shouting-match. That would achieve nothing. There is already too much heat and not enough light on the subject. I am as much to blame as anybody. I appeal to the House not to pass the Bill. A royal commission should be set up. Let us all learn the facts, then let New Zealand decide the issue by a referendum. Rt. Hon. Sir ROBERT MULDOON (Tamaki): I rise to speak not at great length, but to put a point of view that is slightly different from that of those who find themselves strongly on one side or the other on the issue. I am one of those who supported the Bill introduced by the member for Waitotara in the early 1970s. I do not support this Bill, but it would give me no great cause for concern if these acts were decriminalised. That was the attitude I took at the time in supporting a much simpler Bill, and one that was not nearly so far reaching. However, I find myself slightly on the side of the member for Napier, although I perhaps would not use precisely the same expression in opposition to the suggestions and, indeed, the effect of Part II, which makes what I believe to be abnormal behaviour normal. There would be many thousands of New Zealanders who would take the same view that I take-namely, that it may well be unfair and, indeed, unreasonable in today's world to put a jail penalty on those acts. However, to regard them as normal goes far beyond what New Zealand society is ready for at present. I shall vote against the whole Bill, because a curious phenomenon has developed in the time since the earlier Bill was introduced - that of the homosexual and lesbian communities deliberately creating for themselves a high profile in this society. It is unnecessary and even damaging to our society. They have damaged their own cause by this activity. Certainly they have done so as far as my vote is concerned. We have seen outside this building, not once but many times, and, indeed, quite recently, behaviour that would alienate the sympathy of many New Zealanders who otherwise would have been objective in their approach to the issue. I have one word of criticism for the member for Wellington Central. I do not object to her taking a great deal of time tonight to put forward her analysis of the evidence given to the select committee and the material put into the hands of members, but I have to say to her that I do object to the comment she made when a considerable number of people came to Parliament Buildings to present a petition. They sang hymns and prayed on the steps. Regardless of whether one agrees with them, they came in the name of Christ and they were not, as she called them, obscene. She did her cause harm when, on that and other occasions, she criticised people. I must refer to the Salvation Army. I could not do what the Salvation Army does every day in caring for those at the bottom of our society. I do not want to go any further into that matter, except to say that I hope that in this debate we have respect for the opinions of those who behave respectably. I come back to the essence of the matter and I ask myself whether New Zealand society is yet ready for this Bill, and I say to myself I think not. New Zealand society would perhaps accept the first part of it-decriminalisation - but I do not think it would accept the second part. My own attitude to the Bill is one that I have taken on issues such as this, certainly ever since I came into the House, and one that I have preached to new members in recent years when, as leader of the party on this side, I have talked to new members about parliamentary representation. I go back to the words of someone whose wisdom I am fond of–Edmund Burke - who said: “You do not come here to do the bidding of your electorate, you come here to exercise your judgment. They have selected you because they believe you have that judgment." I am not considering 800,000 signatures, and I am certainly not considering the kind of threats that were dealt with earlier today. I simply say that for the reasons I have given I will vote against the Bill. Hon. MARGARET SHIELDS (Minister of Customs): I have listened very carefully to the many arguments that have been presented, and I must say that I am disappointed and hope that the member for Tamaki will reconsider his position, because one of the great dangers in this debate has been that one might succumb to the negative influence of people who have become so frustrated in the debate that their voices have perhaps become a little shrill. We must understand how those voices became shrill, and understand even more that there are many thousands of New Zealanders behind them who are relying on the House to exercise the judgment that the member for Tamaki himself referred to. The topic has indeed created enormous concern from the moment that the Bill was brought to the House - the same kind of concern that arose on the two other occasions when Bills were considered. I, like many members of the House, have read as widely as possible on the topic before making up my mind, and it is my view that no good purpose is to be served by the retention of criminal sanctions against a significant group of the population who are gay. The reasons I have come to that conclusion are several. First, having looked very carefully through all the reliable literature there is, I find no evidence to suggest that homosexuality is a choice or even a life-style into which one can be seduced. Secondly, as was suggested by the member for Wellington Central, there is much evidence to suggest that sexual preferences are established very early in life. Thirdly, although the determining factors are very poorly understood as yet and there is need for more research, there is no evidence to suggest that the process is reversible. The best that can be achieved is the suppression of homosexual behaviour. Fourthly, we know from all kinds of other literature that there is much evidence to show that most human beings need stable, caring, loving relationships, and to deny that is to encourage the kind of promiscuity of which homosexuals are too often accused. Of course, promiscuity is not restricted to homosexuals. Any person who is denied the opportunity for stable relationships is at risk from that. Before the last election I pledged to my electorate that I would consult it by means of a referendum should a contentious moral issue arise during this term of Parliament. I therefore arranged for the Kapiti electoral roll to be updated at my expense, and I conducted a postal referendum with the help, I must acknowledge, of a small army of volunteers. I did not believe it would be honest to conceal my own opinion from the electorate, and therefore at all times I have made my own position quite clear. At the time of the referendum, and when I sent out the letter that accompanied the ballot papers, I urged those who disagreed with me to take particular care to fill out their ballot papers and return them. In fact, the results show that 30 percent of those polled in my electorate opposed the legislation of homosexual behaviour - that is, a minority of less than one third. The result is completely consistent with the numbers who signed the petition validly - that is the petition of Keith Hay and others - because although the petitioners claimed 10,649 signatures for Kapiti, when they were carefully checked against the roll and the habitation index for the Kapiti electorate the result verified only 2,442 signatures. However, I am prepared to accept that the petitioners would not have reached all those people who would have supported their case, and I also must acknowledge that there must be some Kapiti signatories on other electorate lists, so I am prepared to accept a threefold increase in that number, which would take it back to 30 percent. Similarly, at about the time the referendum was run, the Heylen organisation polled the Kapiti electorate, and the results from that poll showed at that time that just over 33 percent of my voters were opposed to decriminalisation. The coincidence of that Heylen poll result and the referendum make me very confident in asserting that when I come to vote I shall be representing not only my own view but, as important, the view of the majority of the voters in my electorate. The other matter covered in the Kapiti referendum was the age of consent. Unfortunately, 17 percent of the people responding chose to give no age at all. They forfeited the right to determine the outcome. Of those stating an age, by far the greatest number preferred 16. In fact, the number of those who preferred 16 was far greater than the number who stated no age. I did not ask a question on the human rights aspect of the Bill. I now turn my attention to some of the arguments advanced by the opponents of change. I refer members to the booklet put out by the Coalition of Concerned Citizens, to which the member for Wellington Central has already referred. The booklet was recently circulated to all members of Parliament. It is the source of the points I shall consider, although not, I hasten to add, the source of my conclusions. The first point argued in the book is that the typical homosexual life-style is harmful to the individual and to society, and, as such, should not be encouraged. In support of the argument it is further suggested: “Homosexual behaviour is different from being single and celibate, because it is an active force against marriage and family life.” I believe there can be few people in the House who do not know of at least one tragic marriage that has been the consequence of a homosexual's trying to go straight, to play out the heterosexual role. JOHN BANKS: I don't know of any of those. Hon. MARGARET SHIELDS: The results of those unions are commonly devastating for all. I remind the member for Whangarei that I know of one of his constituents who is in just that position. JOHN BANKS: No friend of mine! Hon. MARGARET SHIELDS: Perhaps they feel unable to tell him about it. The non-homosexual partner, the homosexual partner, and most of all the children, are traumatised by such an event. The experience is quite shattering for all concerned, and I feel that that is a travesty of the kind of family life we all say we believe in. The second point raised in the booklet is this: “If homosexual behaviour is declared by law to be legal and valid it will result in a growth of homosexuality in this country." This is a wonderful example of double-think. On the one hand, opponents of decriminalisation have railed against what they call the repulsive and unnatural character of homosexuality, and, on the other hand, they would have us believe that if it is made legal we will all be doing it. The truth of the matter is - as I have already suggested - that sexual preferences are laid down very early in life, before we are consciously aware of them. They are not a matter of choice. To outlaw homosexuality is simply to cause immense human misery for some. The effect of removing potential legal sanctions will not result in any change in any individual sexual preference, but it will remove the source of misery and potential persecution. Again, I suggest that the acceptance of homosexuality as a reality will reduce the incidence of some of the aspects of homosexuality that people criticise-in particular, the forced promiscuity of those who must conceal that part of their life from their family, their friends, and their workmates. Of course, again, promiscuity is not confined to homosexuals. Thirdly, opponents suggest that the Bill will “Allow for homosexual acts upon young boys who are at an impressionable age and it will compel acceptance of declared homosexuals under all circumstances, despite a broad level of public agreement to the contrary.” That is simply not true. First, the law in the Bill relating to consent is brought into line with the law relating to heterosexual acts; secondly, there will be no change in the laws relating to indecency, and, thirdly-according to all the research we have been able to undertake - the broad level of public opinion is in favour of the Bill. The fourth point that has been raised by the Coalition of Concerned Citizens is that homosexuals are typically unhappy people who often hate themselves and society, so that if homosexuality is accepted as valid and of no concern to the rest of society it will tend to eliminate hope and motivation for those homosexuals who would really like to become normal. That is the most damaging and confused proposition of all. First, a condition that is present in 10 percent of the population can be classed as abnormal only in the strictest statistical sense. It is much more sound to suggest that it is a normal variant of human development-like left-handedness, and just as immutable. To suggest that hope of normality keeps homosexuals with the prospect of happiness is nonsense. Acceptance and self-knowledge are necessary prerequisites for happiness, and I ask the House most seriously whether we have the right to deny legal acceptance to all our brothers who are different from ourselves only in this respect. I should like to share with the House a personal story. It is the story of a family who were neighbours of ours some years ago. The mother of the family is still a very close friend of mine. She had a son of whom I was very fond. We got to know him when he was still at primary school and we started to worry when, as a young teenager, he started to worry. From his early teenage years it was quite clear that something had gone wrong for him. He had inexplicable accidents. First of all he went away and tried to starve himself, then he had a shooting accident, which nobody quite understood; then he had an accident on his motorbike; then he overdosed. He could not tell his parents what the problem was, because he tried once, and his mother-who is one of the wisest and most sensitive people, and certainly the most honest person I know - will tell you that herself. When the young lad tried to talk to her about homosexuality, of course he did not come out and say, “Hey mum, I'm homosexual.” He asked her what she thought about it and what she thought about homosexual law reform. She replied that she knew nothing about it and did not really understand it, and went on to say-even more painfully - that she really did not think it was all that important. He just managed to say that he thought it was, and she thought it was another of his causes. But he never brought that subject up again-or not for a good number of years. He tried desperately to change. He went to Ashburn Hall, sought psychiatric help, and even tried to get married. However, being the kind of fellow he was by then, and understanding the dangers he was placing others in, he called it off a week before the marriage. With the attitude of society at that stage to somebody who had been brought up as a Catholic, who had been brought up to feel that not only the Church-not all the Church-but certainly the law was against him, things got worse. To cut a rather agonising story short, in his suicide note he said: “I have come to the end of keeping on with keeping on. I have wished myself somewhere else for a very long time. I don't want to hurt the people who care about me, but I have decided at last that I have the right to do what I want to do.” There was no priest at the funeral. We buried him at Makara. I should like to give the last word on this subject to his mother. She said: “The first thing people think of when they suspect someone of being homosexual is that he must be doing it; it's an obsession. I myself don't like the idea of anal sex, but to force homosexuals by law to be celibate because we don't like to think of what they are doing is very wrong and very unwise. They have a right to express their affection and to have an emotional life. It is barbarous to persecute people for what I now know is an involuntary orientation. Those who say homosexuals are flouting God's law should surely leave God to deal with that, rather than taking the opportunity to persecute people they happen to find offensive. My son and the other young homosexuals I have met were people with ambition, just mild ambition: they wanted to be respected and accepted." I ask the House to grant that acceptance to many thousands of people in our community today. (Interruption.] DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! There will be no applause or other demonstrations from the gallery, or the gallery will be cleared. JOHN BANKS (Whangarei): I have listened to the participants in the debate with a great deal of concentration and interest. It is sad that Parliament is discussing this matter tonight when the country is on the brink of economic collapse, and is, to all intents and purposes, defenceless. Be that as it may, I want to record from the outset that the Bill has been promoted with obscene resolve by its sponsor and other Government members. If it is passed it will have an evil and insidious consequence for future generations of New Zealanders. I voted against the introduction of the Bill and against its reporting back, and I intend to oppose it through its remaining stages. My opposition is based on a range of arguments that are compelling when brought together. All relate to the need for decent societies to set and maintain the standards by which they live. The great moral laws of the Christian world have their foundations in teachings that have come down to us over thousands of years. They have set standards that are not severe, bigoted, or censorious, but are basically and fundamentally decent. Those teachings are even more valid today than they have ever been. When we deliberately allow those laws or standards of behaviour to be compromised or diminished the fundamental fabric of society is weakened and undermined. No doubt some of those laws are broken by all of us from time to time, but that does not mean that the laws are wrong or unsoundly based. The fact that laws are broken is certainly no argument for society as a whole to lower its moral standards or to repeal those laws. Society must set standards of behaviour for itself. It is society's responsibility to set such standards for itself. Just as it cannot allow general lawlessness and crimes of dishonesty amongst its citizens, it cannot condone the activities of people who would seek to damage or destroy themselves. Laws to achieve that are for the protection of society itself. For that reason we have laws against drug abuse, offensive language, prostitution, self-mutilation, suicide, and other acts of self-denigration. Society legislates against the so-called victimless crimes-not only for the protection of the individuals, but also for its own well-being. The resultant laws are not designed to punish; they simply seek to ensure that our community is a safe, decent, and healthy place in which to live and bring up a family. If we shy away from taking such a stand it becomes impossible for society to set any standards at all. If we give in to the pressure for a change in the law that will allow homosexual acts between consenting males aged 16 years or over we will eventually face similar demands to legalise incest between consenting adults, prostitution, euthanasia, and many other totally unacceptable practices. Society must take a stand somewhere. As the member of Parliament representing the people of Whangarei, this is the time for me to take such a stand. In taking the stand I am not suggesting that the present laws are perfect, but I do claim that they have benefited society more than their critics have acknowledged. The law is not being used to harass or persecute homosexuals, as is claimed by some supporters of the Bill. It serves to discourage people from promoting homosexual behaviour as being right, proper, and an acceptable way of life. It has suppressed homosexuals from soliciting and flaunting homosexual behaviour in public places, and the law has been a source of support for parents of young families who are concerned about the level of depravity confronting children in our society today. Above all, the present law contains a clear statement made by society at large about the wish to maintain normal and acceptable standards of behaviour and decency. I could use many arguments to show why I oppose the Homosexual Law Reform Bill, and they would all relate back to the need for us all to set and maintain acceptable standards. My position is not taken in disregard of the real difficulties facing homosexual people. I do not lack compassion for their predicament, nor have I ever suggested that I am a paragon of virtue. However, the answer to the problem does not lie in society's weakening or lowering its standards of acceptable behaviour and morality by passing laws such as the Homosexual Law Reform Bill. JIM ANDERTON (Sydenham): The member for Whangarei may or may not be pleased to know that his opposition to the Bill and to the decriminalisation of homosexual activity is shared by people in countries such as the Soviet Union, Chile, and South Africa. If he can credibly suggest that those societies are the better for their prosecution of homosexuals as criminals I should be more amazed than I usually am by what he says. The Homosexual Law Reform Bill is intended to foster equality before the law for all New Zealanders, regardless of their sexual orientation, but in other instances it could be their race, religion, or political belief. The principles of equality embodied in the Bill are of concern to me. I am not concerned with moral judgments on the behaviour of others. Approving legislation to bring about equal treatment in a legal sense does not necessarily imply support for the behaviour of individual people. It is my belief that goodness cannot be enshrined in legislation; all that political representatives can do is ensure that there is a legal framework within which the common good is protected and individual rights are exercised. The present law, which the Bill seeks to amend, is contained in the Human Rights Commission Act 1977, and sections 140, 141, 142, and 146 of the Crimes Act 1961. The two main elements of the Bill remove criminal sanctions against consensual homosexual acts by males, by way of amendment to the Crimes Act, and outlaw discrimination against persons on the grounds of their sexual orientation, by way of amendment to the Human Rights Commission Act. All consenting sexual activity in private between males both of whom are over 16 years of age will be legal; all sexual activity between males to which one party does not consent will be a crime. The penalty for sexual activity with boys under 16 years of age-regardless of whether consent was obtained - will be imprisonment ranging from 7 years to 14 years. Such provisions are precisely the same as those included in the Crimes Act in relation to heterosexual carnal knowledge of girls under 16 years of age. Boys are to be given that protection, which they have not had previously. Anal intercourse for consenting adult heterosexual couples will be legal. It will be a crime to run a male brothel, as it is to run a female brothel; and it will be illegal to discriminate against people in paid employment, housing, goods, or services, on the grounds of their sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation. Those are the provisions contained in the Bill. Broadly speaking, New Zealand's criminal code is concerned with restraining conduct that causes harm to others, protecting public decency, and maintaining public order. There are few offences in the Crimes Act of which it could be said that their principal purpose was to enforce moral standards. That approach is not really surprising in a secular State; there are few moral issues about which society is capable of reaching substantial agreement. On the argument that criminal law is an appropriate instrument for enforcing one particular code of behaviour, the question becomes which code of behaviour it should enforce. It would be inappropriate to expect the State to make such a choice. If public debate on the Bill illustrates nothing else, I believe it illustrates that there is no consensus in the community about the morality of sexual conduct and the prosecution of such conduct by criminal means. Martin Luther King once gave his views about the basis on which individuals, including politicians, could be best judged: he said that the ultimate measure of a man or woman is not where he or she stands in moments of comfort or convenience, but where he or she stands in times of challenge or controversy. It seems to me that the debate on the Homosexual Law Reform Bill will be one of those occasions. The Bill is claimed to be a conscience issue. That implies that most other matters that come before Parliament are not conscience issues. It is an interesting reflection on parliamentary priorities and values that whether or how people are housed and the standard of living and health care of people, and nuclear weapons and their use-surely the ultimate in immorality and inhumanity-are not considered to be matters of conscience. However, anything to do with sex or liquor appears to be automatically defined as a suitable matter for a parliamentarian's conscience. An important question, therefore, is how a parliamentarian determines what his or her conscience is on any issue. Is it the conscience of those in the electorate who signed the petition against the Homosexual Law Reform Bill - 4000 in my electorate; is it the conscience of the majority of the electors who did not sign the petition or who are in favour of reform - 24,000 in my electorate; or is it the conscience of the member of Parliament? What is a conscience, anyway? It is defined as a moral sense of right or wrong, especially as felt by a person and affecting his or her behaviour. If that is so, it can be only the conscience of the individual that matters in making any final decision. It is no use to hide behind the conscience of others, whether that be done by accepting the result of some referendum or the number of signatures on a petition. What happens if one's own conscience tells one that what the majority of electors believe in is wrong? Would a member be justified in ignoring his own conscience? In my view the answer must, of course, be “No”. I want to make one or two comments about the petition opposing homosexual law reform that is before the House. I believe that some fundamental issues for parliamentarians are involved in such a petition. Petitioning Parliament is an important and historic right for citizens in a parliamentary democracy. By petitioning Parliament New Zealanders bring to the attention of their elected representatives, and of all elected representatives, their views on matters of concern, and do so in a public way. Parliamentary petitions are therefore valuable examples of participatory democracy, and should be given due regard when parliamentarians are considering their decisions on the issues dealt with by petitions. Having said that, however, I feel it is necessary to add in unequivocal terms that petitions are and can be no more than expressions of opinion-sometimes they are well informed and sometimes they are not. The petition has been criticised-apparently justifiably - on the grounds that children as young as 6 years of age have signed it; that some moral pressures have been put on certain individuals in the work-place to sign it; and that many people who did sign it had little idea of what it was they were putting their signatures to. However, at the end of it all there is a large number of valid signatures opposing homosexual law reform, which means opposing the decriminalisation of homosexual activity between consenting male adults. The point for parliamentarians to determine is the weight that should be given to such a petition. Parliament is the highest court in the land, and I suggest to members that if attempts were made to influence judges in our courts we in Parliament and those in the wider community would quite properly be outraged. Yet the organisers of the homosexual law reform petition have quite clearly aimed at influencing the way members of Parliament vote on the Bill by threatening members, particularly those in marginal seats, with the loss of those seats because of organised voting against them on that particular issue at the next election. Citizens in a democracy are entitled to vote for or against anyone they choose, and they can organise their votes against whoever they please, but to use a parliamentary petition as a weapon of electoral influence is surely a bizarre act by those behind the petition who proclaim to be Christian citizens. If they thought about it for a moment they would find that their threats, if successful, would mean that the consciences or votes of parliamentarians were for sale to the best petition organiser, regardless of the merits of the evidence to be considered in each case. Surely Parliament and parliamentarians should be worthy of a higher level of respect than that. I remind the House that the largest petition for many years in New Zealand's history was presented in 1918. It had 250,000 signatures on it, out of a population at the time of 1,250,000. That was one-fifth of the total population and probably nearer to between one third and one half of the voting population. It sought the prohibition of the sale of liquor. If that petition had been as successful as one in the United States of America, where prohibition led to gangsterism, public corruption, and violence, I wonder if we would say that the number of signatures on a petition always means that the numbers and the weight of those numbers are right. I do not believe that either the might or the numbers are necessarily right. The consciences of parliamentarians are their own; there can be no hiding behind referenda, valid or invalid. The buck stops here, and should not be for sale at any price. Morality is a very human thing and does not depend upon religion, the church, or even God. The morality that we call conscience makes us aware of the peculiar psychological phenomenon that gives us all a sense of obligation to do what is right rather than what is wrong, and in my view the best reason for doing that is that we are all human beings, whether we have any religious or other views. The issues at stake in the homosexual law reform debate are clear: those in favour of reform want no criminal sanctions to be retained for use against persons over 16 years of age who engage in sexual activity in private and by mutual consent, whether they be homosexuals or heterosexuals; those who oppose reform want all sexual activity between males of whatever age, whether or not by mutual consent, to be a criminal offence. Much heat has been generated in the debate by many who profess strong Christian beliefs and are outraged by the morality or immorality of male homosexual behaviour. The fact that no criminal sanctions exist for female sexual behaviour is a point on which most are silent. Is it the job of politicians to pass laws that deliver moral judgments on members of our society? Some Christians quote the Bible as the source of saying “Yes”, but the Bible is a dangerous document from which to quote-it may be quoted back. Christ did not have a high regard for either lawyers or lawmakers: “Unless your justice gives fuller measure than the scribes and the Pharisees you shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.” For those amongst us who are anxious to rush forward to judge the behaviour of others He made the mob of his day an offer that it refused. He said “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." In 1956, before the reform of laws against homosexuals in Britain, a committee was set up by the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster to draw up a report on the Catholic position on homosexual law reform. The report that was submitted to the British Government came to the following conclusions, among others: “Attempts by the State to enlarge its authority and invade the conscience of the individual, however high-minded, always fail and frequently do positive harm. It should accordingly be clearly stated that penal sanctions are not justified for the purpose of attempting to restrain sins against sexual morality committed in private by responsible adults. They” - criminal sanctions - “should be discontinued, because, (1) they are ineffectual; (2) they are inadequate in their application; (3) they involve punishments disproportionate to the offence committed; and (4) they undoubtedly give scope for blackmail and other forms of corruption.” No one in his right mind could accuse the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster of leading any kind of radical reform to hasten the demise of Western civilisation. The truth is that people are not made either good or bad by laws, but by the set of ethics they acquire and by the moral formation that is gained on a personal basis and not through legislation. I intended to quote to the House several well-informed and sympathetic views in terms of the empathy the writers had-many other members will have received such letters. However, I conclude by quoting from a letter from a former London policeman, who wrote to me in favour of reform: “In the matter of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill there appears to have been no mention of who does the arresting if consenting adult homosexuality in private remains a crime. Will it be you, Mr Anderton, or a religious group, or a vigilante squad, or will it be the police? Before the English law change I was a young policeman ordered into the dark streets and the private recesses of London to hunt for and arrest homosexuals. My actions were the immoral act; his crime, his sexuality, my shame, that I had no brief to crush the sensibilities of a fellow human being. To criminalise private morality turns us off the steep path to civilisation." The House should pay good heed to the words of a young London policeman, now a New Zealand citizen, writing in earnest and with grave concern about the way in which the House will vote on the matter. I urge the House to take the liberal, sane, and compassionate road to reform - that is, the road that leads to a better society and an improvement on what we have. That is the option before the House. GRAEME LEE (Hauraki): I want to explain to the House and to those listening tonight how the promoter of the Bill has been using her office as Junior Government Whip to rush the Bill through the House. Tonight the House should be debating the reporting back. Instead, it is debating the second reading of the Bill. By doing that the House has failed to observe the normal convention of having a lapse of 7 days between the reporting back and the second reading of a Bill. TREVOR MALLARD: I raise a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I reported the Bill back to the House, and I make it clear that that was not done because of a Government decision to stop hearing submissions. WINSTON PETERS: That's not a point of order. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: The member for Tauranga summed it up when he said that the member had raised a matter that is debating material. It is not a point of order in accordance with the Standing Orders. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I rule that way. The matter has been dealt with in the select committee report and it is not appropriate to cover that ground again. This is a second reading debate. GRAEME LEE: The debate is of tremendous interest to the people of New Zealand. It is also of tremendous importance to the worldwide homosexual network, because the Bill has been prepared over a long time on a highly organised basis. It has been said, in the words of those people, that they have chosen this time and this socialist Government. It should concern people that some Government members have made declarations of liberal attitudes and do not accept the traditional morals of society. The Bill is of intense interest to homosexuals everywhere, first because it is the most progressive legislation of its kind ever offered in the world and, second, because it is a reflection of the intense commitment of homosexual people to obtain at any cost the rights they believe in. Therefore they have gone to significant lengths to ensure that the Bill is not amended. I agree with them on that one point only. The Bill cannot be amended; it can only be thrown out. That is the clear direction from the people of this country. It is not sufficient simply to eliminate Part II of the Bill or to raise the age benchmark to 18 or 20 years. That will not in any way eliminate the threat that the Bill represents to the family life of the nation or to the public health of the country. The clear reason that the Bill cannot proceed is that people have spoken through the petition. The total signatures announced to the House were 817,549. I can say tonight that the unofficial figure is more than 830,000. That is more than the number of people who elected the Labour Government into office in July 1984. We have listened to some amazing verbal semantics tonight about why the petition is not valid. It is understandable that the proponents of the Bill have gone to inordinate lengths to discredit the petition, and that action will continue. Those people will continue making those snide and worthless attempts, but the petition finally stands alone. It is a historic petition of immense proportions, and the only way members can fail to accept it is by denying the petitioners a democratic tool of Parliament and of Government. The petition is so large that in comparative terms with the population of the United States of America a petition there would have more than 80,000,000 signatures. It states clearly, unequivocally, and plainly that the people of New Zealand do not want the Bill to be made law. I accept that there are errors in the petition. Errors will still be found in spite of the attempts of the most honest and purposeful volunteers to check the petition. Whether those errors number 5,000, 10,000, or even half the number of signatures, it is still a voice of incredible proportions. It is a voice that tells every member of Parliament here tonight that it is irresponsible to pass the Bill. It has been of great concern to me, as one of the organisers of the petition, that I have been repeatedly assailed by the comments of right-wing fundamentalist bigots. I repudiate and renounce those allegations as totally incorrect. I am delighted tonight to associate myself with Sir Peter Tait and Keith Hay, and all of those other workers who have gone out believing that the people of this country wanted an opportunity to show in a visible form that they do not want the Bill. They have done that. Their faith was more than justified and the people have spoken. It is right and proper that the petition should be aligned with the motive that has been strongly spoken against: “For God, for country, and for family”, which is a proper expression of all that the compilation of the petition has meant. It is important to every one of us as members of Parliament, and to the country, that the petition prevails. Homosexuality is not something that cannot be changed. A number of comments have been made tonight about that. It is fundamental to the argument that the homosexual is born that way. Homosexuality has been likened to being left-handed or right-handed. After decades of assessment around the world there is no biological, hormonal, or genetic evidence that homosexuals are born that way. If they are not born that way, and accepting that many people face real difficulties because of parental imbalances, and that it will take some a long time to adjust, homosexuality is therefore still acquired or learnt behaviour. Therefore, it can be unlearnt. Homosexuals are responsible for their actions; it is a matter of choice. In spite of the unfortunate allegations that have already been made in the debate tonight, I am delighted that investment has been made in the lives of people to allow the formation of internationally acclaimed bodies such as Homosexuals Anonymous and the Exodus Organisation that will help the homosexuals of this country. People are against the Bill because they have come to understand the practices of homosexuality. I do not believe that I fully understood it, and I believe that many people in this nation understood little at the start of the campaign, but they do understand now. I have no pleasure in talking briefly about the practices of homosexuality, but it is important once again that the House and the country understand the exact nature of the practice. I repeat that I am not speaking against the homosexual as a person, but against the practice. I am reading from a pamphlet called “AIDS - New Rules for Safe Sex” that has been put out by the AIDS Foundation, which seems to have been given the blessing of the Department of Health. It is the AIDS network support group of the past and it is being funded with taxpayers' money. The pamphlet states that the practices of homosexuality anal intercourse - fucking; oral sex-sucking to the point that the semen is swallowed, or stopping before the semen is actually swallowed; indulging in water sports - that is, urinating on each other; rimming-tonguing the anal area, which brings the mouth into contact with faeces - or, indeed, even seeking to enter the anal opening; the sharing of sex toys, fisting, which is to use the fist and arm to enter into the rectum and right up the body of the partner, or to use other devices that we do not need to hear about. That is abnormal; it is unnatural; it is against every normal property and habit of the body. It shouts out as being something that the country surely cannot accept. The Bill calls for the abnormal to be made normal, for the people who believe normality is what life is about to be seen as abnormal in the context of the Bill and its passage. The question has been raised about whether homosexuality will increase if the Bill is passed. It will increase, and I will again quote the book that the member for Kapiti quoted from-a book written by Mr Bacon. The first point made was that, when it was declared legal, homosexuality would be seen as being legally acceptable. It goes on to state that a boy would be more likely to have his first sexual encounter with a practising homosexual, and that the homosexual life-style would encourage unrestrained propaganda that will certainly start in the classrooms and will continue throughout society. It further stated that homosexual groups would be able to demand funding from the taxpayers' purse, and that legalised homosexual behaviour would be a magnet to other homosexual communities around the world. I believe that logic supports that. Common sense suggests that there will be an increase in homosexuality if the Bill is passed. Research in Britain has shown that public acts had increased by 300 percent after 10 years. In San Francisco there has been a 2,400 percent increase in sexually transmitted diseases, and in Los Angeles toilets and parks have had to be closed because of the increased activity of homosexuals since homosexuality decriminalised. Homosexuality will increase because of the decriminalisation provided for in the Bill, so are: was the AIDS problem will be much greater. AIDS has not been mentioned in the comments made so far tonight. In the light of those comments and the increase in homosexuality that will occur because of the passing of the Bill, should it be said that there will be no difficulty when AIDS, the greatest killer disease confronting New Zealand and the world, is at the country's back door? Could we imagine such a Bill being introduced in 2 years' time, when AIDS will be a much worse threat in this country? I think not. If the reason for decriminalisation was to halt AIDS, as it was in many states in the United States, why has AIDS become almost an epidemic there? . The incidence of AIDS doubles every 6 months. It is irresponsible, illogical, and insane to pursue legislation that will give rise to an increase in AIDS. Judging from his assessment, Dr Barker of the Department of Health is obviously confused about what will happen. One thing he is clear about is that promiscuity is the issue to avoid. He is backed up by the World Health Organization. AIDS victims in the United States have, on average, at least 100 partners in the year preceding their death. That is promiscuity on a large scale. It cannot be laughed away by the homosexual community, which is a promiscuous community. Many facts were given to the select committee to indicate that a homosexual has more than 1000 partners in his lifetime. The public health threat of AIDS alone is a reason that the Bill should not be passed. I am concerned for the family unit. I have told the 21,000 people I have had the privilege of addressing on the subject that the family unit will be at risk because of the passage of the Bill. Wives will be at risk, and the heterosexual community is at risk because, on their own admission, 70 percent of the homosexuals in New Zealand are bisexual. It is not sufficient to talk about the risks to those people in their marriages, as another member did. The risk is surely to the wives and, through them, to the nation as a whole. The children of any family unit must be at risk. They will be at risk in the classroom, where it will be quite in order to speak about homosexuality and to expect it to be promoted actively by some teachers. The children will ask their parents why they should not be involved when they have been openly taught about the advantages of that kind of alternative life-style. The family is at risk because it faces the challenge of a legal, lawful, so-called viable alternative life-style. We must not pass the Bill if we have any concern for the family unit, its integrity, its future importance, and its role as a cornerstone of society. The passage of the Bill poses the greatest single threat to the family unit. All my arguments make it very clear that, as parliamentarians, we must not allow the Bill to proceed. Hon. GEORGE GAIR (North Shore): It is obvious that the arguments can be felt very keenly both ways. It is also important that we appreciate that most, if not all, members will have agonised over the subject at some length before they take part in the voting, during the next week or so, that will determine the fate of the Bill. I suggest that the excess of zealousness on the part of the advocates of the extreme positions has not helped the logical debate of the subject that is necessary before we can come to our conclusions. One of the reasons the Bill is before us, and for the arguments about it, is that the present law is clearly seen to be deficient. It is not sufficient to say that because the present law is deficient we must bring about the changes contained in the Bill. The time has long since passed when change should have been achieved. I was present in the House when my colleague the member for Waitotara proposed his private member's Bill 11 or 12 years ago. The Bill came to within six votes of being passed. Had that Bill been passed there would have been no need for the Bill before us tonight. This is a difficult subject to debate, to explore, and to discuss, because feelings are often very keen and the diversity of opinion is so wide. I have sought-as, I am sure, has every other member-by making myself available to listen, to be talked to, and to be jawed at, to glean the views of my electorate, which has its share of prejudice just as each one of us in the House has his or her measure of prejudice. But we must try as best we can to put our personal prejudices aside and to do what we judge to be right. Because the community is so divided on the subject I am not at all sure that polls or petitions help greatly. They do underscore the fact that the community is divided-in some instances very bitterly. Parliament must not only try to solve this problem; it also has an additional task, which no one has yet mentioned in the debate, to try to remove or reduce the polarisation society is suffering at present because of this issue. I have found, in the course of discussing the general subject with many people, that the evidence that has come from the mothers, the wives, and the former wives of homosexuals is particularly sensitive and revealing. I thank the many constituents who have come to see me to tell me their personal stories, so helping me to build my picture of how I should respond in the debate. The Bill has three key elements. The first concerns the age of consent. Whatever age we choose will be an arbitrary age. The second matter concerns decriminalisation. The third concerns the provisions of Part II of the Bill, which amends the Human Rights Commission Act. First, with regard to age I accept that the logic of the age of 16 is very compelling. I accept also that the age of 16 for young girls and heterosexual behaviour is, in essence, an arbitrary age. But society has come to accept it. However, it is my belief that to decide on 16 years as the age of consent is asking the country to move too far too fast. My personal preference is the age of 18, although I accept willingly that there is no particular logic in regard to the age of 18 any more than any other age. The passage of the decriminalisation provisions is essential. I supported such a measure 11 or 12 years ago. I took the time and the trouble at that time to try to become conversant with the general thrust of the Wolfenden report in Britain, which was a very thorough study. There was a ton of useful precedent in that report. I am much less happy with Part II of the Bill, and I will vote against it. Fortunately it will be presented to the House as a separate Bill at the third stage of the procedure. Therefore, it will be possible for a person to support decriminalisation but to vote against Part II of the Bill. I know there is a certain logic in the arguments in favour of Part II, but much of it is asking the law to do the impossible. Part II of the Bill asks Parliament to legislate for public attitudes, and such legislation has never been very successful. There are many examples to support that view. Decriminalisation is the essential ingredient. I will support the Bill through its second reading to make sure that we have the opportunity to achieve decriminalisation at the end of the day. The Bill is described as a conscience measure. Those who are not familiar with the ways of Parliament could, perhaps, be a little misled by the reference to conscience. No doubt many members will view the vote they make on this Bill in conscience terms. However, I feel that something more important than conscience is involved - although perhaps indirectly it involves conscience - and that is to decide where we, as members of Parliament, feel the overriding public good must lie. So I will not vote according to any doctrine that I happen to support. I will not vote according to any matter of mighty principle or any matter of biblical study - and one can find support for or against the Bill in the Bible. I believe that the greater good lies in removing the chief mischief-in other words, to achieve the measure for decriminalisation. If that is achieved, most else will in time fall into sensible place. Our society is deeply divided, and the House and the way in which it handles the Bill should not aggravate the division but should do its best to begin the process of healing the division. In that sense it is my submission that neither side-neither those opposed to the Bill nor those who want the Bill passed in its entirety, exactly as it is - should win, because if they do the other side is bound to feel rejected. It is possible that the Bill will be rejected at the second reading stage. That would be a serious blow to this gesture towards social progress. But if we succeed in passing the second reading, and in sorting out our views on what is an acceptable but arbitrary age at which decriminalisation should commence, we will have the opportunity of considering what is a much less important consideration-whether we should adopt Part II of the Bill. For myself, I would be disposed to vote against it. I should like to thank the hundreds of people who have written to me and the hundreds who have taken the time to talk to me. Those people have given me not only their views but often their personal experiences. The experience has taught me that there is a problem to be resolved - a problem that we cannot dust under the rug; a problem that we cannot ignore by rejecting the Bill in total. It has taught me also that many people in society do not understand the problems of the homosexual; they are fortunate not to have that problem in their own families. That does not mean that the problem is not there, and it does not mean that the problem will just go away. So I commend to the House that we pass the Bill at the second reading stage and that we sort out the details of age during the Committee stage. In that regard, I hope that the sponsors of the Bill will make provision for the House to tackle the matter of age in an orderly fashion, because if it becomes a matter of 16 or nothing it may very well prove to be nothing. If the Bill is passed at the second reading stage, provided we find a procedural way for tackling the matter the age decided on will be the one that meets a general consensus. With those thoughts, I wish the Bill all the best in its passage through the House. EDWARD ISBEY (Papatoetoe): As did the member for North Shore some 10 years ago, I voted for the Bill on homosexual law reform introduced by the member for Waitotara. A decade has passed since 1975, and society has moved along with it. I do not have the same difficulties as the member for North Shore about Part I, Part II, and the schedule. I thought about Part I of the Bill; I thought about the age question, and I wondered about the age of 16. Then I examined the total picture. If the age of consent for females is 16, why vary it for males? Is some sort of male chauvinism attached to setting the age of consent for females at 16 and having some other age of consent for males? Is it just a matter of easy pickings? My view is that there is a common ground to have the age of consent at 16. I do not think that the sponsor of the Bill or people such as myself would be hard and fast about pushing the age all the way. The essential feature of the Bill is Part I-the decriminalisation of homosexuality. I have no problem with that. The member for Tamaki said this evening that he would support the decriminalisation of homosexuality yet would vote against the total Bill. I cannot understand that kind of logic. All the Bill is asking is whether we, as citizens in a democracy, want to jail people because they have a form of sexual orientation and a consenting age with which we might disagree. The member for Napier said that he finds homosexuality repugnant. O. K.; that is his right. Does that mean that because someone finds a person's behaviour repugnant that person should be sent to jail? Should someone call the police and have that person brought into court and then put into a prison cell merely because his personal behaviour is found to be repugnant? The member for Hauraki read out a list of activities from a book he had. I say to the member for Hauraki that activities of that kind are not restricted to homosexuals. They are spread throughout the heterosexual world. Are members saying that because they find a form of heterosexual activity unpleasant it should be made a criminal offence? That is what the member for Hauraki is saying. Many people who are not homosexual find many forms of heterosexual behaviour unpleasant and repugnant, but they would be out of their minds to suggest that the people who practise that behaviour should be sent to jail. Some of the best manuals on the subject recommend some of those activities. Where does one go? The member for Whangarei made a political comment and said that we are defenceless in New Zealand today. What kind of morality and obscenity is that? He used the word “obscenity”. In my view those who want to plant nuclear bombs on New Zealand soil or bring nuclear ships into New Zealand harbours are more immoral and obscene than is sexual behaviour between consenting adults. Does the member for Whangarei want to send people to jail if they behave in a particular way because he does not agree with their behaviour? The hallmark of a great democracy is the ability to embody all forms of human behaviour as long as they do not in any way harm life, limb, or property. I have no difficulty with the Bill. Society has moved since 1975 when the member for Waitotara introduced his legislation. New Zealand has gone a long way, as has the rest of the world. The member for Hauraki said that the Bill was being watched with great interest by the worldwide community of gays. I have not seen that group active in New Zealand. I did see another group come in. I saw its representatives on television and heard them on radio, and they appeared before the select committee. That group is known as the moral majority. It has certainly moved into New Zealand in an attempt to condition New Zealanders' attitude to a Bill that, in my view, is long overdue. The member for Hauraki said that the member for Wellington Central - whose private member's Bill this is - was trying to ram the legislation through the House. I cannot see any evidence of that whatsoever. Every member is allowed to get up and have a say on the Bill. No one is going to stop anyone. Members should get up and give their viewpoint, because their constituents want to know where they stand. Everyone should be able to say where he or she stands. I respect people's consciences on this issue; they should respect my conscience on this issue. This is a conscience issue. I feel strongly about the issue, and believe that homosexuality should be decriminalised. For me a crime is an act like murder, rape, burglary, or theft, but not a form of human behaviour that I might disagree with--as long as that behaviour is not doing me any harm. I hope that members will speak and will vote on the legislation. If they disagree with the age limit they should move an amendment to raise it. I am sure that most members must agree with the decriminalisation of homosexuality between consenting adults over a certain age. For goodness' sake, let us pass that aspect of the Bill. In the matter of human rights I have always felt that it was wrong to damage someone personally because of disagreement with his behaviour. I think all people should have the right to a job, the right to earn a living, and the right to associate within our society without being compelled to lose their job or some aspect of their life because of their sexual orientation. I think it is a matter of human rights, and I am sure that all members uphold human rights. We should go along with that kind of philosophy. The member for Hauraki mentioned AIDS. Most medical authorities I have read on the subject state that the sooner we decriminalise homosexuality the better, because it will come out into the open and make it easier to tackle the problem of AIDS. It is the weight of the guilt about one's own activities that helps serious diseases like AIDS to spread. The member for Hauraki used it in the same context when he spoke about developing a community of promiscuous people. Are we going to make promiscuity a crime? Is heterosexual promiscuity a crime? It is a matter of one's attitude to a broad form of human behaviour. My argument is that members will have different opinions about the age limit, but if members say they are not in favour of decriminalisation are they going to say they want to send homosexuals to jail? That is the alternative. I suggest that members should move along with most of the Western World and support the Bill. DOUG GRAHAM (Remuera): I have found the debate quite enlightening and I think that the various points of view have been put clearly, both from the extreme of the liberalisation movement and from the extreme of the conservative movement. It is, of course, a moral issue and, as such, we as members of Parliament have to exercise our own consciences. In so doing we bring to the Chamber the beliefs and the moral laws with which we were brought up. I was instructed in the Christian belief, and I adhere to it to this very day. There seems to be some doubt about what that Christian message is. Some people would say that it is a message of condemnation, a message of hellfire and damnation, a message that requires people to interfere with the activities of others in an attempt to save them from themselves. I prefer the Christian message of forgiveness, compassion, love, and tolerance - the message that each one of us in our own way has to work out for ourselves for our own salvation. That is my personal belief, but I accept that others may have another view. That is the view I bring to Parliament and put to the test when legislation such as this comes before the House. What should members of Parliament do then as a group when they discuss such a Bill? I think the first consideration must be whether there is a suffering of our people that requires Parliament to assist. Then I think Parliament must ask how it can maintain the standards of behaviour that a clear majority believes are necessary in society's interest. Is it true that there is suffering that needs to be alleviated? I think there clearly is. I do not accept that homosexuality is a matter of choice. I am quite satisfied that in many cases, if not in all, it is not. Therefore, to apply a criminal sanction is wrong. I think people are suffering, and therefore I seek to alleviate their pain. I have asked myself whether I am at risk or whether those I love or those I represent are at risk from activities that two people take part in. I do not think so. The only people who could be at risk from such activities are children, and provided protection is given to them there is no reason not to support the decriminalisation of such acts. It is not the function of Parliament to enter the bedrooms of the nation. If I am in any doubt at all, I would er on the side of saying that it is not the business of Parliament to interfere in that way. I do not support homosexuality. I find it rather abhorrent, and I certainly have no desire to embark on a homosexual life. I feel very sorry for those who find it necessary to do so, but I have no desire to make it a criminal matter. I do not think it requires the sanction of the law, possible imprisonment, or at the least to be seen to be brought before the courts. Therefore I say that homosexual acts should be decriminalised. The next part is a little more difficult, and relates to the protection of the young. I think that 16 years of age is rather young for consent. I accept the argument that if it is good enough for young women it should be good enough for young men. However, I would prefer that the age be higher, and I suspect that during the Committee stage a number of amendments will be moved on that provision. The hardest part is the matter of the human rights legislation. Whilst I have said that I do not believe that the criminal law should apply, nevertheless, I believe it is absolutely essential that all New Zealanders, in the exercise of their individual rights, should be entitled to express their views on anything, free from interference, unless there is some compelling reason why they should be restrained. Not so many years ago the human rights legislation was enacted. It was made difficult-one could say it was made an offence-for people to discriminate on the grounds of sex, marital status, or religious or ethical beliefs. I do not find much to argue with any of those. I believe it is right to encourage people to take an objective, fair, and tolerant view. However, I accept that people find some behavioural patterns totally abhorrent, and from the speeches we have heard tonight it is obvious that many members in the House find homosexuality totally and utterly abhorrent to a degree far greater than my abhorrence of it. Should they be restrained from expressing their views? Are we doing New Zealand society proud if we say to them: “You can now no longer say that you want nothing to do with a person because of that person's behaviour pattern."? People will no longer be able to say: “If you elect to follow that course feel free to do so - you must work out your own salvation. I can help; I can guide, if asked; but I have to say that I do not agree with what you are doing, and I voice my opinion against it.” If we do not allow people to express that view - even though it may be bigoted and prejudiced on occasion - we are suppressing something that will become a festering sore at a later time. I believe that is dangerous, and I ask members to be careful before outlawing the right of people to express their views. FRAN WILDE: That's not stated in the Bill. DOUG GRAHAM: The Bill prohibits people from discriminating in matters of real estate or jobs on the grounds of sexual orientation. FRAN WILDE: People can express an opinion. DOUG GRAHAM: I do not believe it is as simple as that, because if a homosexual approaches me for a job I cannot discriminate against him on that ground. I believe I should have that right; I should be able to say: “I do not blame you for being a homosexual; I am not heaping scorn and condemnation on your head; I accept that you have the right to think as you will; but I do not want anything to do with you, and I do not want to employ you." I believe that right should not be taken away from me, because if it is I will feel that I have been frustrated in expressing my view, and society heads for danger when that is done. So the matter is not easy. Passions are aroused. At this time I believe that members should support the decriminalisation, and they should listen carefully to the arguments on the age of consent. However, when it comes to legislation on human rights I must say that I am not convinced that sexual orientation should be included in the Bill. I should hate to think that society is being prevented from expressing its view on this or any other matter unless compelling reasons are given. It is my view that, in this case, those compelling arguments do not exist. That is all I have to say at this time. Hon. WHETU TIRIKATENE-SULLIVAN (Southern Maori): I see the Bill as a radical measure. It has two revolutionary purposes. The first is to establish for the first time in New Zealand that the homosexual life-style is a legitimate option. The Bill is aimed at attesting, affirming, and enshrining that legitimacy in the laws of the country. Its second radical purpose is to attempt to redefine traditional normalcy as we have known it in our society. Its proponents are using the Bill and the debate to argue that homosexuality is a normal expression of human sexuality. The Bill seeks to make a socio-political statement that characterises the relatively recent gay liberation revolution. The revolution began in about 1970 - perhaps precisely in that year - in America and gave rise to the unnecessary strident and arrogant demands of the younger gays. That revolution transmitted older, law abiding, monogamous homosexuals into relics of the past. For them I had considerable concern and genuine sensitivity, and I have expressed that in earlier debates in the Chamber. However, monogamous partnerships between older homosexual men went swiftly out of date at the inception of the gay liberation revolution. New Zealand is following the American sequence of events, even though it is some years behind. It is therefore instructive to see what well documented research of the American scene has revealed. In America the social institution that has been the most influential within the homosexual subculture has been the gay bar. In fact, without the gay bar, and the gay bath or gay sauna as we would say in New Zealand, it would be impossible to conceive of the homosexual movement as it exists today. Indeed, the exact event that brought the movement into the open arose when the New York Police endeavoured to curtail homosexual activity at a gay bar and the Stone Wall riot occurred. Already in New Zealand we have equivalent meeting places; we have had them for about 4 years. Medical researchers have observed that the degree of promiscuity in American gay bars defies the imagination of those not familiar with homosexuality. From the point of view of traditional values they are some of the most destructive and degrading institutions in America today. The mover of the Bill suggested that some might go to the city of the world that has the highest reputation for homosexuality. She has been, and so have I, recently. She has made her inquiries, and so have I. I do not want to see gay bars in New Zealand. I do not want them to flourish here, but if the Bill is passed they will inevitably follow. With gay bars or saunas constituting a major focus for the transmission of diseases, the most recent one being AIDS, there is revealed the full implications of gay liberation and homosexuality for the rest of the community in terms of the health/illness continuum. Unmasked is the risk to the health and well-being of the community by the individual human rights of the individual homosexual. I have studied considerable documentation by medical researchers for identifying the promiscuous gay community as a reservoir of disease for the rest of society, and any member can have access to that. The proponents of the Bill will resist the allegations because they are inimical to their interests and to the passage of the legislation. However, evidence suggests that the homosexual community is very much aware of that. Well known homosexual periodicals carry medical advice columns advising the nature, treatment, and prevention of illnesses directly related to male homosexual practices. There is no comparison with female homosexuality and they should not be compared in that context, although it is convenient so to do. There is a distinction, and they are not in the same category. In America there is an organisation called the national coalition of gay sexually transmitted disease services. The degree to which the homosexual community is affected by sexually transmitted diseases and the promiscuity prevalent among homosexuals is revealed in that organisation's own advice to its members: “Always exchange your name and telephone number to facilitate contact in case signs or symptoms of a STD are later discovered." There is so much more that I cannot repeat in my time tonight. The impression given by a study of the coalition's literature is one of ceaseless and impersonal sexual activity that creates the ever-present danger of sexually transmitted diseases. The coalition has devised a measuring scale to enable gay liberationists to ascertain their relative probability of contracting a sexually transmitted disease. Seven main categories are listed. To have a different sexual partner every other week is said to be a low risk, but to have more than 10 different sexual partners a month is a high risk factor. As to the kinds of encounters carrying high risk the coalition points to one-night stands and group sex. The coalition also points to the high risk of sodomy, oral anal sex, rimming, and scatting, and also makes a particular point about the possibility of major surgery to repair injury sustained from anal sex using one's fist. It also warns about intestinal parasites. Writing in the Medical World News in 1980 Dr Dan Williams, an active member of the coalition, said that his concern was that there could be a sudden outbreak of seriously damaged immune systems. The House knows that AIDS did follow, as he predicted and about which he expressed deep concern. There is little doubt that the extreme promiscuity associated with male homosexuals guarantees that they are a high risk population for sexually transmitted diseases, as their own coalition points out. The Centennial, which is a well-established and respected homosexual newspaper in San Francisco, has admitted that the risk of gay people contracting disease is about 10 times that of people in the general population. It is also reported that for homosexuals the risk of developing hepatitis B is 10 times greater than for other people. Those conclusions were confirmed by a survey of members of the gay coalition and other homosexual organisations reported in the official publication of the American Public Health Association. That survey yielded a variety of results, one of which was that 78 percent of the thousands surveyed had been affected at least once by a sexually transmitted disease. The same survey indicated an average of 49 different sexual partners for each homosexual over a lifetime. It also reported that 10 percent of homosexuals have more than 500 sexual partners in a lifetime. The high rate of illness in the homosexual community has been repeatedly linked with the promiscuity of some of its members, and the connection between the promiscuous life-style of some homosexuals and their tendency to infection is clear. Any legislation that might in any way predispose us to go further along the course we have already embarked on and to impair the health of the community should not be passed by the House. When commenting about the high incidence of venereal disease in San Francisco, Dr Irvine Braugh, the director of the city clinic, indicated that the problem was generally due to active people having multiple sex partners. Dr Braugh made the observation that most of the partners chosen were single. Dr Silverman, the director of public health for San Francisco, has described that city as a tolerant one, hence the rate of venereal disease being almost 22 times the American national average. A public health medical officer with the state's venereal disease control unit, Dr Irene Hindle, has pointed out that people in gay communities tend to have more sexual partners; that they are not particular about their partners, and tend not to take precautions. Abundant evidence exists that leads to the reasonable assumption that homosexuals as a group pose a health threat to the rest of the community. The issue was raised in the United States House of Representatives in 1980 on the hearing of a Bill not dissimilar to this one-Bill No. 2074 - which many members would be familiar with from their research. I have already mentioned much of the evidence brought forward, and I have researched and read much more when preparing for the debate. It was also suggested that if 10 percent of the population were gay, and a substantial number of those people were infected at a particular time, the risk that homosexuals as a group posed to the health of the rest of the community would be very real. We have to think about that reality, which has been documented in a country along whose similar path we have already launched ourselves. In 1981 other infections began to make their appearance among homosexuals, especially young male homosexuals, who had previously not been considered to be prone to those illnesses. By December 1981 it had been reported that five or six new cases were being found each week. The homosexual publication The Washington Blade reported that male homosexuals were found to be affected by a new virus transmitted by the ingestion of semen and urine, as is said to be common in homosexual practices. Any member can find the source of the research, quotations, and references I have made. I believe that in attempting to quote sources that proponents of the Bill would accept, and in quoting research accepted by the gay coalition's own network, I have been as responsible and as detached as possible in the enumeration of my concerns about unleashing anything more on this country and our community than we have already. I have referred only to prostitution and to numerous partners, but I do point out that research indicates that homosexual prostitution has frightening prospects for younger male homosexuals. Besides homosexuality posing the danger of transmitting infectious diseases, certain sexual practices themselves are life threatening. I refer to sado-masochism, which is intrinsically violent, and homosexual prostitution often involves that violence. In San Francisco the coroner's office organised a workshop for sado-masochistic homosexuals on how to have their preferred variety of sex without injuring one another. The reason offered was that 10 percent of homicides in San Francisco are the result of sado-masochistic homosexual practices. I do not think anyone can deny any of those facts, which are based on the reality of recent experience, research and more recently, for me-inquiry. There is no doubt in my mind that the House must consider the issue with great responsibility, and realise the consequences of an uninformed liberal approach to providing equal rights for male homosexuals as compared with female homosexuals. The point of considerable concern clearly distinguishes between the male and the female practices, and the male practices are those that have given rise to the epidemics of sexually transmissible diseases. That is the substance of my research on the matter, and it has caused me to change the approach I have expressed in the House in the past when similar measures have been discussed. Members may know that I have expressed concern for this group in the population. I have been a counsellor and have felt the acute anguish of those people. I am, however, aware that if one releases or removes the present restrictions the group knowing the anguish will inevitably be increased, and why should that be done? I am clear that I cannot support the Bill because of what has happened over the past few years. There has been a revolution. Attitudes of 5 years ago towards the condition must surely have been changed by the facts to which I have referred. PHILIP WOOLLASTON (Nelson): As has already been said, this is one of those measures that provides a severe test for the House and its members. I am sure that other members have received a great deal of correspondence about the Bill, as I have. It is significant that more of the correspondence I have received has supported the Bill than has opposed it. I have paid particular attention to the correspondence from my own constituents, and it did not surprise me to find that of those in my electorate who felt strongly enough to put pen to paper the support and opposition were numerically almost equally divided. The measure is divisive of society, as is the issue. For that reason I do not think it is possible for members to walk away from the issue. Walking away from the Bill will not cause the issue to go away. The House has to give very careful attention to it, and to the matters in the Bill. We need to consider carefully what is actually in the Bill and what the House is being asked to approve. I do not accept that the Bill is aimed at attesting and enshrining homosexuality, or that it is a socio-political statement of the kind mentioned; nor do I accept that the movement for decriminalisation of homosexuality started in 1970. Members have heard some views expressed on promiscuity, and the suggestion has been made that the views of some members have been determined by the promiscuity practised by some homosexuals. However, it is equally true that the world and this country have undergone an explosion of heterosexual promiscuity at exactly the same time, and I suspect in exactly the same proportion. There has been an explosion of heterosexually transmitted diseases, so the logic that has been advanced on that score in opposition to the Bill would lead one to invoke criminal sanctions against heterosexual activity between consenting adults. If that were to happen we would either break the law or become extinct in a fairly short time. I want to discuss briefly some of the issues that have been raised with me by constituents, and also some of the fears that have been expressed, because many of the expressions of opposition have attested to a degree of fear, not always well informed, about what may or may not be in the Bill. Those people outside the House, and also some within the House, who have dwelt at some length on some of the more bizarre, and, I hope, rare sexual practices that have been described in medical and other literature are not addressing the issues in the Bill but are playing on those fears. Some of the practices described tonight are not homosexual practices but sexual practices that can be engaged in between people of any gender and any form of pairing. Discussion of those does not help to determine the issues the Bill deals with. Some of the fears raised by my constituents have been based on a perception that, if homosexual acts between consenting adults in private are no longer punishable by imprisonment, adult homosexuals will in some way be free to prey on young boys in our society. That is incorrect. If it were true it would be good ground for opposing the passage of the Bill. There is nothing in the Bill that would permit that to happen. It is interesting to note that the Bill provides a protection for young boys that does not exist in the present law. At present there is no specific protection for male children from homosexual attention. The Bill seeks to provide the same protection for male children as for female children. I am the father of a boy and a girl, and I think they should receive the same protection. It is an unfortunate truth that the youth of our country are at risk from the predatory sexual attentions of older people. We must protect them from that. It is my belief that we have an obligation to protect our sons and our daughters equally. That is what I want the law to do, and that is what I understand the Bill to do. It would incorporate into the Crimes Act exactly the same measures to protect male children that at present protect female children. I want to mention the age of consent, because that has been mentioned by some members. I mention it in the context of equality before the law. It may well be that 16 years of age is too low an age of consent. If that is so, I suggest that it is equally too young for female children. I should want my daughter to have the same protection before the law as I should want for my son. The real issue regarding the age of consent is whether there should be a different legal prescription for homosexual activities from that for heterosexual activities. I turn now to Part II of the Bill. Another fear that has been expressed to me by many constituents concerning the Bill has been mentioned in the House tonight. Part II of the Bill provides a particular protection against discrimination on the basis of perception of sexual orientation. The fear that has been expressed to me is that, if there is no general criminal sanction against homosexual acts between adults, people in positions of responsibility such as teachers, members of the police, or senior members of the armed forces may in some way be able to abuse that responsibility to make sexual advances to people within their care. That is manifestly not correct. Probably the most common form of sexual abuse by people in positions of responsibility is heterosexual attention to female schoolchildren by male teachers, but that does not call into question the legality or otherwise of heterosexual acts between consenting adults. In that context it is statistically demonstrable that by far the greatest abuse of positions of responsibility relate to acts by males in superior positions to girls or young females who are in some way in their care. If the licence for the acts between adults were causative of that, we would be looking very hard at the position in relation to heterosexual acts between adults. But society does deal very severely and swiftly with, for example, a male teacher who abuses that position of trust in regard to female pupils. Exactly the same sanction in regard to abuse of trust or of advocating immoral behaviour would apply in any case to any person in a position of such responsibility with regard to the people for whom he was responsible. The argument that there will be a rash of teachers or, as one constituent suggested, Sunday school teachers who are able to advocate immoral acts to the children within their care does not stand up. It is a fear that has been whipped up. The member for North Shore said that Part II of the Bill is asking the law to do the impossible - to legislate for public attitudes. That is not in the Bill, and not in the present law that makes illegal certain forms of discrimination. It is obviously impossible, by law, to require people to hold certain attitudes. The present law does not require people to hold tolerant attitudes on matters of race or religion or on any other matter that is covered in the Human Rights Commission Act. What it does do is make discrimination illegal. Discrimination involves an unfair or unjust attack on the rights of other people on the basis of perceptions of race, religion, and so on. Similarly, the Bill seeks to make illegal an unfair attack on the rights of people on the basis of a perception about their sexual orientation. That is a right and proper matter for the House to legislate on. The member for Remuera suggested that it would make impossible an expression of opinion or personal dissociation from people whose nature one disapproved of or whose nature gave rise to perceptions that led one to want to dissociate oneself from them. That is not what is proposed in the Bill. What is covered in the Bill is an unfair attack on the rights of other people because one thinks they might be homosexual. The matters of principle in the Bill are likely to be lost sight of in the emotional debate that has arisen. I am pleased that most members who have spoken, on both sides of the debate, have stayed clear of some of those emotional statements, but I was disappointed to hear an attempt to link the Bill to such matters as incest, euthanasia, prostitution, and so on. They are not in the Bill, and they are not envisaged by the Bill. The Bill does not affect the law on those matters, nor does it make statements on those matters. It behoves members of the House to bear in mind the matters relevant to the Bill and the Standing Orders on relevance when debating it. The Bill is not about homosexuality per se. That is not well understood. The Bill is about whether certain sexual practices, or sexual practices between males, should be subject to criminal sanction. It does not imply a judgment for or against people who wish to engage in those practices, but merely deals with the question of whether or not they should be subject to criminal sanction, the threat of imprisonment, and, consequent on that, to the threat of blackmail and sometimes of violence that goes unreported because of the possibility of legal action. I suggest that members mu: address themselves to the narrow question of whether we consider there should be a criminal sanction when dealing with matters of moral principle that are perhaps matters of strong opinion in society, but are not matters of damage to third parties and would not normally be dealt with in the criminal law. There is also the matter of equality before the law and whether there should be two different sets of legal prescription, one governing the behaviour of the majority of people in New Zealand who are heterosexually inclined, and the other the minority who are homosexually inclined. The Bill seeks to amend the Crimes Act so that one law applies equally to all, with the same protection to young people of either gender, to the mentally incapable, and to others in need of protection. I believe that equality should exist before the law whenever possible. This is one of the cases in which there must be equality. Therefore I believe the Bill should be passed, and I believe that whether or not one thinks 16, 17, 18, or some other age is the appropriate age of consent for sexual activity there should be one age of consent for sexual activity. Therefore the Bill should be passed with the age of consent at 16. The matter of what the age of consent should be in general terms could be addressed at another time if the House wanted to. I should like to say a few words about the petition that has been brought before the House. The member for Hauraki said it was for God, for country, and for family. I refer to the numerous representations I have received from Christians in my electorate who are incensed because they do not like to see the mantle of Christianity hijacked by people holding one particular view on the Bill; by people who are patriots, but who do not like to see it claimed that only people who are in favour of the Bill can claim to be for country; and by people who hold strong family views, but who resent the suggestion that only those who oppose the Bill can claim to hold strong family views. There is more I could say on the petition, but I know that other members want to speak. I urge the House to support the Bill as it has been reported back. BRUCE TOWNSHEND (Kaimai): If ever there was a time when the House is flying blind it is on this issue, because the select committee did not consider two vital issues that we are considering tonight: the age of consent, and the moral aspect of the threat of AIDS to the wider community. Many speakers tonight are struggling to decide the right position on the Bill - whether is should be passed, the effect its passage would have, and the risk at which its passage would put the community at large. Debate interrupted. The House adjourned at 11 p. m.

IRN: 3844
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_homosexual_law_reform_bill_first_reading_8_march_1985.html
TITLE: Homosexual Law Reform Bill - first reading (8 March 1985)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 8 March 1985
YEAR: 1985
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 8 March 1985, New Zealand Parliament. FRAN WILDE (Wellington Central): I move, That leave be given to introduce the Homosexual Law Reform Bill. At the outset, I wish to make it quite clear that the Bill is not a Government or party measure. It is a private member's Bill and, as such, I ask all members to listen to the debate and the issues carefully and to make their decision on the real information. The Bill is designed to eliminate legal sanctions on consenting homosexual activity between adults; to remove the legal sanctions on anal intercourse between consenting adults; to strengthen protection for boys under 16 years along the lines of protection already provided for girls, and to outlaw discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation. The Bill is in the form of an omnibus Bill to facilitate consideration and discussion during the various stages. It is intended to seek the leave of the House to break the Bill up into two component parts for final enactment as a Crimes Amendment Act and a Human Rights Commission Amendment Act. I shall briefly outline the main changes the Bill will bring about. The amendments to the Crimes Act 1961 are found in Part I. Clause 3 repeals section 140 of the principal Act and substitutes two new sections. The present section relates to indecent acts committed upon or with boys under the age of 16 years. The new substituted sections adopt the approach followed in section 133 and section 134 of the principal Act, which involve indecency with a girl under 12 years of age and sexual intercourse or indecency with a girl between the ages of 12 years and 16 years. The main features of the approach are parallel to the provisions and penalties at present provided for those sections dealing with girls. Clause 4 repeals section 141 and substitutes a new section. The present section prohibits indecency between males. The new section follows section 135 of the principal Act relating to indecent assault on a woman or girl of or over the age of 16 years. In line with that provision the maximum penalty for an offence against the proposed new section 141 is raised to a term of imprisonment not exceeding 7 years. Clause 5 repeals section 142, which relates to sodomy, and substitutes a new provision relating to anal intercourse. It is drafted on the assumption that the relevant provisions of the Rape Law Reform Bill, at present before the House, are enacted in broadly their present terms. In that event, non-consensual anal intercourse will constitute the new crime of sexual violation, and will be dealt with accordingly. For that reason the new section 142 is limited to consensual anal intercourse, and only when it is committed upon a person under the age of 16 years or severely subnormal. Clause 6 repeals section 146 of the principal Act, which relates to keeping a place of resort for homosexual acts, and consequentially amends section 147 to make it clear that premises where male or female prostitutes work may be a brothel for the purposes of the section. The amendments to the Human Rights Commission Act are contained in Part II. The amendments will render it unlawful to discriminate against a person on the grounds of that person's sexual orientation in circumstances in which it is at present unlawful to discriminate on grounds of sex. It has been 10 years since the House last had the opportunity to consider a Bill of this nature-a similar Bill was then introduced by the member for Waitotara. There is no doubt that in a decade our community has developed an awareness of the justice of such a Bill. People have steadily moved from a knee-jerk, hysterical opposition to a position of more informed and considered acknowledgment that there is no evidence in favour of the punitive criminal code that deals with the issue of consenting adult sexual activity. There was majority support for homosexual law reform even 5 years ago in a Heylen poll of 2000 people. Those who oppose the Bill advance arguments that, I am sure, are based on a genuine but misinformed concern about the nature of homosexuality and the effect on our community of legalising adult homosexual activity. In the past few days we have heard that homosexuality-in particular, sodomy - is a violation of Christian moral standards. In fact, modern biblical scholarship, with the assistance of the science of linguistics, does not support the long-held theory that the city of Sodom was destroyed as a punishment for sodomy. The Old Testament story was an illustration of the effect of continual violation of rigid hospitality customs, and the homosexual punishment interpretation appears to have gained currency about A. D. 200. Jesus said almost nothing about sexuality in the New Testament, and nothing about an age of consent. A rigid and complicated theology of sensuality that proscribed homosexuality began developing with Paul and proceeded down through the ages, ably assisted by a succession of Christian Roman emperors who were concerned as much with political and financial considerations as with the traditional opposition to Greek culture. It was strengthened during the Inquisition, when professional heresy hunters were employed to extinguish all forms of dissent, including sexual, religious, and political non-conformism, which were very often defined and perceived as the same thing. The treatment of homosexuality by the modern legal systems of most European countries has, until recent years, been largely a relic of that history. Contemporary Christian views are more diverse, and legislatures in many countries have also changed their opinions as a result of evidence gained from modern social and medical research and the more enlightened attitudes that have followed that information. Opponents often argue about the detrimental effect on the institution of the family or on young people should adult male homosexuality be legalised. Those arguments should be examined by the House. All homosexual people, like heterosexual people, are bought up in some kind of family. Most heterosexuals appreciate family life, as do most homosexuals. Homosexuals can and do produce children. Many are married, although not necessarily happily, because of the suppression of such an integral part of their personality. There are many New Zealanders who have a homosexual parent, either male or female. One of the major myths about homosexuality is that gay people are child molesters. All the statistical evidence collected contradicts that myth. Overwhelmingly, those who molest children are heterosexual men, who molest young girls and, less frequently, young boys if they cannot find a girl. They are overwhelmingly heterosexual in their basic sexual orientation. Our laws do not give young girls adequate protection from assault and rape, particularly when it occurs in their own homes, where it most often occurs, and the perpetrator is a relation or a friend. Children are not in more need of protection from adult homosexual man; they need protection from adult heterosexual men, most notably fathers, uncles, relations, and friends of the family. It was only a century ago that the idea of homosexuality and child molestation became intertwined, as they are now, and that was as a result of a change in the law, in which anti-homosexual provisions were slipped into legislation designed to curb the child prostitution that was rife at the time. The fact is that most adult gay men prefer other adults and are attracted to adults, just as most heterosexuals are attracted to other adults. Opponents of the Bill also claim that young people will be corrupted if it is passed. They imply that if young people are exposed to ideas or information about homosexuality, or to social or sexual contact with homosexuals, they will find it so attractive that they will themselves choose homosexuality. There is no evidence to back up that assumption. On the contrary, there is a vast body of research showing that even actual sexual experience in the mid teenage to late teenage years does not play a part in determining sexual orientation. The Royal College of Psychiatrists has publicly stated, and given evidence to the effect, that a person's primary sexual orientation is fixed early in life, and definitely before the age of 16 years. It is commonly accepted that at least one-third of males have some homosexual experience. However, the number in the population whose prime sexual orientation is homosexual remains much lower, whatever the state of the criminal law in any particular country. The same proportion of homosexual and heterosexual people will exist in any population before or after any law change, as has been proved in places that do not have anti-homosexual laws. I believe that protection from sexual exploitation - that is, protection of people of any age or any sex-is not achieved by a law that totally bans male homosexual activity, nor is it achieved by setting varying ages of consent. Homosexual people are to be found in all walks of life-amongst the educated, the uneducated, professionals, manual workers, policy makers, and administrators. I venture to suggest that if all gay people were publicly identified much surprise would be expressed. On learning that that nice Mr Brown, the grocer, or Mr Smith, the doctor, or Mr Jones, who works down at the factory, was gay, many people would be moved to comment: “What a surprise! He seems so normal!" There is another compelling argument for the introduction of the Bill, New Zealand, like other Western countries, is faced with having to deal with the AIDS syndrome. We are relatively lucky because, like most other things, whether desirable or undesirable, it has reached us last. We have had the opportunity to learn from the mistakes of others. AIDS is not, as some have described it, a homosexual disease. It is a sexually transmissible syndrome that can be caught by anyone who received the virus through a body fluid. It is not easy to catch. In some parts of Africa, where it is very common, heterosexual people are the main sufferers. However, in recent years it has entered America and Europe primarily through the homosexual community, and, therefore, it has largely been gay people who have been the victims. Big public education and health campaigns aimed at preventing the spread of AIDS are being organised in places where the gay community can live an open life and associate with other homosexuals without fear of reprisal. In New Zealand we have a problem in that respect. Homosexual acts are illegal. A very large proportion of homosexual men-no one knows exactly how many - are married, living as heterosexuals. Many of those men express their homosexual orientation only occasionally, through casual sexual contacts with strangers. They run the risk of acquiring AIDS and of passing it on to their wives. They are unlikely to come forward to identify themselves for diagnosis until it is too late - and AIDS is most infectious in its early stage or to take the necessary steps recommended for safe sex to prevent the spread of AIDS in the first place. If we are effectively to combat the spread of AIDS in New Zealand, we must remove the criminal label from the prime target group and ensure that those people feel secure enough to participate in a public education programme. The Bill is a serious attempt to reform the law in what I acknowledge can still be a contentious matter. It is a private member's Bill, and, as I have said, every member has a free choice about how to vote. The right to introduce a private member's Bill is a basic right of all members of Parliament as representatives of the people. It has become something of a convention in the House for members to vote for the introduction of such Bills to enable the House to examine the proposals in detail and the select committee to hear the evidence. It has been 10 years since Parliament has had the chance to scrutinise the issue in that way. I know that some members support the principle of homosexual law reform but disagree with me about the age of consent. Others question the Human Rights Commission proposal. I ask them to vote for the introduction of the Bill. They will have the chance at a later stage to move or vote on any amendment they think appropriate, and, of course, to vote on the two parts of the Bill separately. Members should not discard the whole Bill because they do not agree with part of it. The reform is long overdue, and I ask the House to vote to allow the introduction of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill. ACTING SPEAKER: The Bill does not involve an appropriation. Hon. JIM MCLAY (Leader of the Opposition): Members of the National Opposition will have a conscience vote on the Bill. For reasons that are well understood, this is not a matter on which there is party policy. There is no party line. The Whips on this side will not be operating, and any member who seeks a division on any aspect of the Bill will therefore have to provide his or her own tellers. With the country reeling from crisis to crisis, many Opposition members would not have given high legislative priority to the Bill at this time. I shall deal briefly with the main issue of the Bill, because I know that many members want to speak on it. I have always said that, had I been in Parliament in 1974-75, I would have supported the Bill introduced then by my colleague the member for Waitotara. That remains my position. It was a cautious Bill. However, if there is to be a change in the law in this area Parliament, acting in the interests of the whole community, has a responsibility to move cautiously. I am particularly concerned at the age of consent provision contained in the measure. While any age limit is inevitably arbitrary, strong evidence in 1974–75 persuaded the majority of the select committee to agree to a higher age - 20. I will not support the third reading of the Bill if the 16-year-old provision remains. As has been my practice as a local member of Parliament, I intend to consult my electorate before exercising a final vote, although I do have previous expressions of opinion from my electorate that provide me with a guide to the attitudes of my constituents. But finally, as must be the position with all members, my vote must be in accordance with my conscience. I am well aware of differing religious points of view on the issue and know that many of the mainstream churches support some change to the law, but probably not as radical a change as that proposed by the member for Wellington Central. I regard the argument that the Bill should be passed to facilitate the treatment of AIDS as utterly fallacious. For millennia history has demonstrated that sexually transmitted diseases will be passed, on regardless of the law. As is the case with all such diseases, including those that result from legal heterosexual activity, many sufferers do not seek treatment, not because the law prohibits their behaviour, but because they fear the embarrassment arising from their predicament. The state of the law has nothing to do with those attitudes. Doctors do not sit in judgment on their patients. They do not report patients to the police because they have contracted a disease that might have resulted from illegal sexual activity. Doctors act in accordance with their ethics and their professional oaths, and they treat and care for their patients regardless of the source of the disease and certainly regardless of the law in that regard. The sponsor of the Bill does it a disservice by advancing that argument. TREVOR DE CLEENE (Palmerston North): I rise to support the member for Wellington Central and to compliment her on her courage in producing this private member's Bill. I speak in favour of its introduction, and echo her strong words that it is a tradition that a private member's Bill be given at least a first reading so that the evidence for and against it can be heard and determined in the rationale of a select committee. I am a member of Parliament, but I was and still am a practising barrister of the High Court. Like most of the males in the Chamber I was brought up under a system that regarded homosexuality with odium and contempt, and my biblical training included the famous Sodom and Gomorrah and Babylon and a great deal of the Old Testament. If we are to get into religious argument I also refer members to Matthew 7. 1: “Judge not, that ye be not judged.' During my career at the bar I have acted in many cases in which people have been tried and convicted and I have had to plead in mitigation of penalty. In making this submission I do not want people to think that I have got so far along the line of life that I condone that behaviour, but gradually, throughout my life, I have become sympathetic towards those people because of their tragedy. I have learnt from my career at the bar not to be judgmental of my fellow human beings in their morals or in other matters. Also, the law teaches a discipline of mind that enables one to look at some things with rationality rather than with emotion. I hope that members will conduct themselves in that way about this matter. I cannot help but feel sympathy for some of the people I have acted for, including the president of a rotary club who gave tremendous service to his club, and the chairman of a county council who locked the scrum in a provincial rugby team and who, when his wife became paralysed from the waist down in a tragic car accident, reverted to what was described in the open court as practices that were forced upon him in a boys' boarding school. Those were the worst cases, because those people interfered with young boys. That is not the position with the Bill. I ask the lawyers in the House to consider the Bill coldly and calmly and say that the law ought to be certain, fair, and equitable between male and female. One of my strongest arguments in supporting the Bill is that it is not an offence for females to perform such consenting acts of intercourse. Why therefore should it be an offence between males? If there is to be true equality, which I am sure is espoused by the women of the House, and many of the men, there must be equality before the bar of justice just as there must be before the bar of conscience. The very Act that made an offence of the homosexual laws we are now trying to reform was brought in only by accident. Late one night, in a Bill to protect young women from prostitution on the streets of London, Labouchère moved, without proper parliamentary scrutiny, an amendment that was thought to be an effort to stop the prostitution of young boys. Only a few members were present and the Bill was passed with that amendment. It did not have the intention - nor was that professed- of making consenting males guilty at the bar of criminal justice. The tragedy was that one of our greatest literary exponents, Oscar Wilde, was one of the first to feel the lash of that law that had not been intended. It was brought into our law in about 1857 when we adopted the English practices, and in 1908 it became enshrined in New Zealand law in the review and legislative enactment of the common law of felony. At that time it covered not just a homosexual act but an act offensive against women as well - and, as the member for Wellington Central has pointed out, the Legislature has already sent a Bill to a select committee, largely in the form in which Opposition members saw it before it went before the Statutes Revision Committee a second time. That will be dealt with when it comes back to the House with much of the nature of the heterosexual offence that was previously in other Bills that came before the House. The Bill being introduced deals with consenting acts between males considered to be of an adult age. Like the Leader of the Opposition I wish to reserve my view on the question of age, although, in logic, I am bound to say again that if 16 is the consenting age for heterosexual intercourse for women I must be in favour of my own sex and say that at 16 years of age we are no less mature than the females of this world in exercising judgment. My present disposition is that in logic and reason the age of 16 is the proper age, offensive though it must be to many members. I reserve that view to be dispelled upon evidence before the select committee if the overwhelming nature of such evidence is that there had to be a compromise on a later age. The Wolfenden report in Britain was not a result of anti-establishment forces or of people of licentious behaviour, but of a movement largely by the church leaders, who thought that, in the interpretation of the law of God, judgmental attitudes were not something the New Testament desired or that they were prepared to practise. It was the bishops who finally got the Wolfenden report before the British Parliament, and the law--not under a Conservative Government but under a vote of conscience-finally relaxed the criminal Acts that were then in vogue. In the old days it was even a capital offence for which one was burnt at the stake. I see the member for Invercargill scratching his head, and well he might, because we all burn in hell eventually, no matter what our judgment is. Homosexuality is no longer an offence in England, Denmark, or many of the states in the United States. The Chamber in which we are at present debating once took pride in the fact that it instituted laws that were followed all around the world. That happened with the vote for women and with much of our social welfare legislation. However, historically it has always lagged behind the mores of the community when it has come to the boldness of attacking this matter of conscience. I know that many men fear that if they say they believe the law should be remedied their constituents will automatically say, “He is one of those.” I have already warned my wife lest my telephone begin to ring, as I know it did when the member for Waitotara, in his courageous fashion, suffered at the bar of public opinion when he moved the same Bill 10 years ago. I ask all members to have the courage of reason, rationale, and conviction when they consider how they can support a criminal law that makes it an offence for a male but not for a female. I do not want to take up much more of the time of the House, because, I can see the member for Invercargill, Mr " Normal” Jones, champing at the bit. However, if this matter is to go before a select committee the evidence from people on both sides must be bold and fearless. I am sure that the matter will go before a select committee. I believe the member for Wellington Central has a majority on the Bill's introduction. I exhort people from all walks of life to come fearlessly before the committee to hear the evidence and make their decisions in the best rational, legal, and unemotional manner. The matter should not be clouded by emotion. NORMAN JONES (Invercargill): The member for Palmerston North was not being funny when he said that Mr “Normal” Jones was champing at the bit. When I look around the Chamber I begin to wonder whether I am normal or abnormal, because I am not " with it" with most members on some issues, and this is one of them. I do not go along with the attitude of the new vogue and subculture about being gay. To call people who are homosexuals " gay" would be the worst travesty of a decent word that was ever bastardised. It used to mean something significant. Now it connotes homosexuality. I am a perfectly normal person from a family of eight kids, and I have six of my own. The Bill is about abnormal sex between males. It is about sodomy. I will not quote the scriptures as the member for Wellington Central and the member for Palmerston North did. I am just a poor Presbyterian who goes to church only about once every 2 years. My wife is an elder in the church. I do not care about those things. I am not an atheist. All I know is that if the good Lord wanted us to procreate the race through the rear he would have put the womb down there. We are not animals. It is a moral issue for most people of this country. I have a list from the member for Wellington Central, who supplied it to the homosexual lobby; which shows where Opposition members stand. (Interruption.) Well, they have a copy of that list, and they did not get it from me. It categorises the views of all members of Parliament on the Bill. The Leader of the Opposition referred to this sickening matter. We know that private members' Bills cannot be introduced unless there is a consensus among the respective caucuses that they appear on the Order Paper. At a time when the country is facing crisis after crisis involving matters of grave concern such as defence, security, and God knows what else, the Labour caucus is preoccupied An Hon. Member: Hey! NORMAN JONES: Well, a good many of its members, and some of my own caucus, are agonising over whether homosexuality should be legalised. That is a moral issue. I am not quoting the scriptures. I have received dozens of telegrams of support, but none from church leaders. Where are all those church leaders who were so quick to jump on the nuclear issue as a moral issue? They spoke about it as a moral issue; I want to see those same church leaders speak up on this moral issue. It is all right to talk about a nuclear free New Zealand, but let them come out and say, " Give us an AIDS free New Zealand." We want an AIDS free New Zealand, The member for Palmerston North said that AIDS was no problem in countries where homosexuality had been legalised. The AIDS disease has sprung from communities in San Francisco and other such places. A vote to legalise homosexuality at 16 years of age would be a vote to legalise the spread of AIDS throughout New Zealand, I have no doubt about that. I do not believe the spurious argument put up by the proposer of the Bill that the Bill will help to contain the disease, and neither does anybody else. These people will come out into the open. They are in the open in gay communities now. It is sickening. Homosexuality will not stop at the age of 16 but will spread to 10-year-olds and 12-yearolds. I taught in schools for 27 years. I have seen it in the lower forms, and people practising it with kids. There has been case after case. Any country headmaster knows. Kids at my school were interfered with. It is anathema. I am afraid that there are enough members in Parliament, according to the list I have, to put the Bill through in keeping with the tradition that a private member's Bill ought to go to a select committee. I am no moraliser. We interfere through film censorship and censorship of literature. I do not go along with members of Parliament who say, “We'll give it a go. Let the public dissent.” Some members of Parliament will turn round like Pontius Pilate and wash their hands of it. They will say that it is not for M. P. s to interfere in what goes on in the bedroom. It is not going on in the bedroom but in the schools, in the streets, and in the community. It is spreading a disease to which there is no answer. I do not go along with those parliamentarians who say they will wash their hands of the matter. I believe that it is the duty of Parliament to make laws and set standards. This is one such opportunity. I intend to vote against the Bill, because all the euphemistic talk and rubbish will not stop the spread of homosexuality. The only thing that will stop the spread of homosexuality will be the view of most members of the public that it is anathema, and they will express their concern about it to the select committee. Somewhere along the line Parliament will have to face up to whether it will legalise homosexuality. All I can say in mitigation of anything in the Bill is that we are all concerned. People talk about sexual orientation in the community, and we know that these acts take place, but legalising the practice for people of any age - be it 16, 20, or whatever - will bring it into the open and make it so acceptable that it will be apparent everywhere. It is difficult enough now in schools and in homes to try to teach children standards. It can be done only by example. Parents look to the House and to the legislators not to wash their hands of the matter. I know it is a moral issue and a conscience issue. I ask everybody to search their consciences. They can do it. There are a number of issues on which we must search our consciences. We must ask what is best for the country, I do not have to quote the scriptures or to moralise; I have a gut feeling that homosexuality is wrong for the human race. Sodomy and homosexuality are moral issues. Way-out sexual orientation, in spite of the spurious talk about human rights and the quoting of Christian scriptures, and similar rubbish, is anathema to most human beings. Civilisations that have allowed it - the Greeks, the Romans, and others - have gone down the tube, and they have done so because of this so-called need to keep up with the subculture. People must stand up and be counted one way or the other on this issue. There is no halfway house. People are either for or against it. The logic can be argued intellectually; that is not valid for me. This is a bigger moral issue. If the Bill is passed it is likely that more New Zealanders will die of AIDS in the next 10 years than would die of a nuclear explosion. I am as sure of that as I am sure of anything. ACTING SPEAKER: I draw to the attention of those people occupying the public gallery that they are not part of the debate that is taking place. Although they may feel strongly and wish to register the strength of their feelings one way or the other, they must restrain themselves from doing so. EDWARD ISBEY (Papatoetoe): I disagree entirely that this is the greatest moral issue of our time. To me the greatest immoralities and obscenities are nuclear weapons and those who favour them. On the morality of recognising that homosexuality is practised, and the attitude of Parliament to it, I support the Bill that has been introduced by my colleague the member for Wellington Central. I do so fully conscious that we are debating behaviour that is considered by most people to be undesirable but perfectly understandable. We know also that there are heterosexual aspects of human activity that are considered undesirable by many people, although they are considered to be quite acceptable by the manuals. People would be out of their minds to try to have that behaviour regarded as criminal activity. My speech will not be long. I believe that the House must have progressed, in that in 1985 it is able to consider whether it will still hound - with the police, the courts, the prison cells, the public shame, and everything else that goes with the law as it stands today-people who have a different sexual orientation; or will it progress to the viewpoint once stated by Pierre Trudeau in the same context - that politics should be kept outside the bedrooms of nations? A heterosexual relationship that is based on one human being relating in a warm human way to another human being is generally applauded. The point of the issue is one of relating. In a homosexual relationship between parties over the age of consent it is also possible for one human being to relate in a warm human way to another human being. Should that be considered a criminal activity? That is the crux of the argument and of the Bill. What the Bill endeavours to do - and I support it - is stop that from being a crime. Murder, rape, burglary, and the peddling of drugs are accepted as crimes, but should a human relationship between people over a certain age be considered to be a form of outrageous criminal activity? People of our age and period should think about that matter, and consider whether it should be a form of criminal activity. What human torment has been experienced in many homes throughout the nation because of this issue? What torture has been suffered on this issue by many people in all walks of life? Will the House perpetuate that human torment, or will members take an attitude of human compassion and understanding about what is possibly a different form of sexual orientation from their own? My view is that New Zealand has come of age on this matter. I totally support my colleague, with a sense of fairness, justice, and human compassion for my fellow human beings. I do not want to hound people; I do not want to use the thumbscrew, the rack, and the whip on people who have a form of human relationship that in no way damages my person or my property. I believe that is what the law is about, and I think the law must change. We must decide on an age of consent and allow people to have a form of human relationship that is acceptable to themselves, that is in many ways understandable, and that in no way hurts other people. I support the Bill. Hon. VENN YOUNG (Waitotara): It is 11 years since the Crimes Amendment Bill was introduced to the House and referred to a select committee. The committee sat for almost 1 year before the Bill was reported back. It was again considered in the House, and defeated at that stage. It is appropriate that the House should again consider the vexed question of how far the law is required to intervene in the private morality of adults in our society. There is always great difficulty in deciding between the role of the criminal law and the determinations that result from the moral codes that develop in our community. As she handles the Bill the member for Wellington Central will be exposed to having to argue her proposal. The law, or any changes to it, do not make a great deal of difference to the amount of homosexual behaviour in New Zealand. Whatever the law might be, there will always be a strong social attitude in opposition to homosexual behaviour: that is the burden and the lot of the homosexual in society, and the law cannot change it. Throughout our nation's history there has been a strong tradition that the law shall not punish simply because behaviour offends a moral that is accepted by society. Conduct that warrants punishment should be conduct that is harmful to individuals, that offends their liberty, or that makes people in our community-particularly the young-vulnerable. The law must intervene firmly when those conditions apply. Therefore, I am concerned about the 16-year-old age of consent in the Bill. When it considered the matter about 10 years ago Parliament determined that the age of consent should be 20, and I expect many submissions will be made to the select committee on that aspect of the legislation. Parliament cannot be asked to pass judgment on the rights or wrongs of sexual behaviour between consenting adults in private. We are being asked to consider whether a criminal sanction is an inappropriate way to deal with the matter in this day and age. When the Bill returns from the select committee it will be different. Time will tell whether that is so. However, we must recognise that the problem has been considered by Parliaments around the world. In most Western nations the law has been changed in line with the measures contained in the 1974 Crimes Amendment Bill, The Bill goes much further than its predecessor. I echo the words of the Leader of the Opposition: if we proceed with a change in the law on this matter we should proceed with caution. It is appropriate that Parliament should again consider the measure. If the Bill is introduced and referred to a select committee, upon its return to the House members can decide whether it is in an acceptable form to meet our responsibilities towards the criminal law. In particular, we can then determine whether it meets our responsibility as legislators towards the rights of individuals and the protection of the young and vulnerable. GEOFF BRAYBROOKE (Napier): I opposed the introduction of the Bill, which seeks to legalise sodomy and indecent acts between males 16 years and over. I acknowledge the strong compassionate feelings of the member for Wellington Central. Notwithstanding that, I view homosexual activities as unnatural and perverted acts. Changing the law to legalise those acts will not make them natural. The Bill seeks to cloak homosexual activities with respectability. I have a grave fear that, if it becomes known that adults view homosexual acts as normal, young and immature people will tend to be influenced. Indulgence in homosexual activity is a threat to society and to family life, and in my view it should not be encouraged in any way. I do not shun homosexuals as people. They need both medical and psychological treatment: they do not need a change in the law. I am convinced that most New Zealanders want a decent society that is based on sound experience, tolerance, and Christian principles. Unfortunately, the Bill fails to meet those criteria. The House has a responsibility to protect and promote family life. I am concerned that if the Bill succeeds the next step by the militant gay rights movement will be to press for an acknowledgment of so-called “gay” marriages between consenting adults, and following from that, the adoption of children. That has happened overseas, and I find it absolutely repugnant. Like other members, I have been lobbied by gay rights homosexuals. They have attempted to present a bold and sometimes defiant front. In spite of their endeavours to create an atmosphere of happy comradeship, I strongly suspect that that is not the reality. I am convinced that if members are perfectly honest with themselves they know in their heart of hearts that the actions of homosexuals are both evil and perverted. I acknowledge that the militants in the gay rights movement are a minority. However, this morning my wife and daughter have been subjected to insulting, abusive, and threatening telephone calls, which I find repugnant. I am also concerned about what will happen in the armed forces if the Bill becomes law. I spent 10 years in the armed forces and I know that the actions of homosexuals cause grave crises in attempts to maintain discipline. We are opening a Pandora's box with the Bill. We are attempting to apply what I call academic debating logic to a moral issue; some people are pressing that kind of view on the introduction of the Bill. Setting the age at 16 is merely using a sprat to catch a mackerel. I learnt many years ago that if I really wanted something I should ask for double and accept half. I do not condone consenting acts of sodomy between consenting adults at any age. Although I sympathise with their medical problem, I will not condone their perversion and sodomy. I give notice that, should the House decide in its wisdom and against my better judgment to enact the Bill, when the rules of the House permit it I shall introduce a private member's Bill to facilitate a referendum throughout the nation, because the condoning of homosexuality affects every citizen. It affects the very basis of a Christian nation, which New Zealand purports to be. I oppose the Bill, and urge all decent members to oppose it. GRAEME LEE (Hauraki): The Bill is repugnant. It offends against God and man, and should not be introduced to the House. I do not condemn the homosexual person. There are people in the homosexual community whom I count as genuine friends; I have counselled such people with weaknesses and strengths just like any of us. I condemn homosexual behaviour, not the person. There is a big difference. Some speeches, in what I would class as debating phraseology, have referred to compassion. The House is concerned about people, and my contribution to the debate does not ignore that. The Bill seeks to change the existing law on what is classed in section 141 of the Crimes Act 1961 as an indecency between males. We are asked today to agree as legislators that what is now called an indecency should be called a decent act; what is now defined in the law as an abnormality is to become normal. The dictionary defines indecency as an offensive standard of sexual behaviour and an abnormal means of obtaining sexual satisfaction. I believe therefore that age has no real relevance to the debate. The basis of the matter is whether we are to agree that behaviour that is classed as indecent has suddenly become decent. Several speakers have commented that the Bill would not help to spread the homosexual community. There has been no scientific evidence over a long period to suggest that homosexuals are born. There is no such genetic, hormonal, or biological evidence. Indeed, considerable weighty evidence shows that homosexuality is a learnt behaviour. The promoter of the Bill is asking the House to accept her arguments as adequate for a change of law. Apart from the absurd inadequacy of her argument, surely we should not be moved as legislators on such an important issue until we are overwhelmingly convinced that it is the right thing to do. Argument should not just stand up to scrutiny or be an argument of the day-I think “a coming of age” were the words used-but we should move in the context of this important issue only when there is overwhelming evidence. That evidence is just not present. The argument about AIDS being overcome or ostensibly controlled by the measure is totally fallacious. We need only consider California and other states where such a law has been introduced to find that AIDS has increased commensurately with the explosion of homosexuality resulting from decriminalisation. In California 8132 people suffer from that dread, evil scourge, and we are all deeply concerned about that terrible disease that destroys the leucocytes in the body and makes even a common cold fatal. The fact that it has exploded in California, and that about 500 women are now infected, should be a point to ponder. Throughout the world, AIDS has not been controlled after decriminalisation, but quite the reverse has happened. I shall refer to the point made by the promoter of the Bill in terms of removing the relevance of religious teaching in the matter, and referring to the words of the Lord Jesus to say that He did not directly condemn homosexuality. The member was right in that context, but she must accept that the whole canon of the Scriptures - both the Old Testament and the New Testament are very explicit-is about the abomination of such behaviour. The New Testament states clearly in many passages that those people without natural affection have no place in the standards set by God, If we believe that that is irrelevant to the present age in which he we legislate, let us consider that we subscribe to the Westminster system, which is founded on the Judaeo-Christian ethic. If we want to be consistent in anything we must say that the ethic governs the House, and therefore we must recognise the biblical teaching on the matter now before the House. I have received letters asking how I can speak on the issue when I hold strong religious beliefs. It would be absurd not to do so. The question is, what do New Zealanders want? There is no evidence that the public wants a change of law. Who can stand up here and say that the public wants the law changed? I raised the issue with the news media in the middle of last week because I sensed that the Bill might be introduced as quickly as it has been. Why was it brought in with such rapidity? Why was it not possible for the public to have the chance to say something? Had the public been afforded that chance I do not believe there would have been a response other than to confirm that there is no reason for a change. Only 4 percent or 5 percent some claim 10 percent-of the population is within the homosexual community. I have received scores of telegrams stating that people want the House to stay firm on the issue. I am concerned about where the Bill will lead to. I do not know whether I understand fully the context of the Bill as it relates to the matter of a brothel, but I do understand the extreme moral laxity it seeks to proliferate. Whether they are introduced by a member of the Government or by the Government as a whole, moral matters seem to be increasingly occupying the Legislature these days. Consider how many other Acts with strong humanist overtones have been passed in recent times. When will a move be made to the next lower moral benchmark? JOHN BANKS: Abortion on demand. GRAEME LEE: It could be that, and I expect that move could come from a Government member. ACTING SPEAKER (TREVOR YOUNG): Order! Although it is a free debate, members are still restricted by the Standing Orders. The Bill relates only to homosexuality and I will not allow any member to throw accusations across the floor about some other member introducing a Bill on another moral issue. GRAEME LEE: I am sorry, but I feel angry about the matter. In conclusion, I shall consider the scenario as it affects families and homes. How can members be party to the passing of the Bill and believe any longer that the family unit is a fundamental cornerstone of society? It is a mockery and a lie. What about the families of those members here today who are parents of teenagers? Are they satisfied with the knowledge that their son, at the age of 16 years, could be approached and recruited by the homosexual community? Is that what members want? Can they say that they can face up to that and be comfortable with it? Are they satisfied that increasing influence-proved overseas, particularly in California, will not occur in the classroom? Are parents happy about that? The answer can only be in the negative. GERRY WALL (Porirua): It is difficult, on a subject so highly charged as sexual relations, to achieve a logical approach. Parliament will serve the country best if it attempts to do some hard thinking about the Bill. Little has been done in the past 20 years, and almost nothing in the past 10 years, to consider why people who have been involved in homosexual acts are put into jail amongst their own sex, and held there in an environment in which homosexuality is one of the greatest problems. There has been homosexual activity in prisons for as long as prisons have existed. The logic of trying to stamp out a particular kind of behaviour by putting people in an environment in which they are most prone to be involved in that behaviour absolutely defeats me. For that reason I strongly support the introduction of the Bill. I cannot go along with the supposition which is not biologically or socially well based - that there should be an equality of chronological age between males and females in connection with judging whether they are emotionally secure enough, and old enough, to make a free, adult decision about their sexual acts. Everyone who has brought up a family of mixed sex has been taught by the children themselves that chronological age is almost as irrelevant in the development of the security and maturity of those children as is their height. By and large, boys tend to be about 2 years to 3 years slower than girls in achieving such maturity in their teens. I am at a total loss to understand the logic of placing the cut-off point at a simple chronological level for both sexes. That does not face reality, any more than does the decision to put people in jail for homosexual acts. Both attitudes are illogical. The House should be concerned about the provision in the Bill for the Human Rights Act to be invoked to prevent discrimination on the grounds of a person's homosexuality. No doubt the subject will be explored at length in the Committee stage and at the second reading, and quite rightly so. The implications of that are of more social concern than the other two implications in the Bill. In the present environment it is impossible to divorce consideration of the Bill from the great public concern that we in the House share about the spread of the disease, AIDS. Optimistic noises have been made from medical administrative circles about steps being taken to control the disorder. The more informed the people whom I have consulted have been, the less they confirm that optimism. A programme to help control AIDS has been announced and instituted in the community most likely to be affected, but the simplicity of that programme has not been made public. I understand that it is a three-pronged programme. The points should be well considered by members. The first and most effective method of control is to abolish or restrict promiscuity amongst homosexuals. That is the main thrust and, were that achievable, the threat of AIDS would be greatly diminished. Second, if that result is unachievable, the use of a sheath is recommended to act as a physical barrier to prevent the transference of infected cells. The third approach is towards the other large group at risk - those illegally and improperly using drugs injected intravenously. It is agreed that all of those groups are notoriously resistant to advice and guidance from those whom they see as outside their peer group and as appearing to be preaching at them. The prospect of control appears to be remote at present. The authorities are hoping--and their belief can be no stronger than that - that with the passage of the Bill and the decriminalisation of the act more people will make themselves available for counselling. It is the only hope felt, and I doubt if overseas experience bears it out. The prospect of the development of a cure or a prophylactic vaccine to AIDS seems remote at present. One cannot say in any field of medical endeavour-and particularly in this abstruse scientific field - that a breakthrough will occur. It is one of the wide group of retroviruses that, because of the very nature of the virus and its infestation in the body, makes this technically difficult, so that an early positive result is not to be expected with the present state of knowledge. It is with that background that we are considering the measure. It does not make it easier, it makes the prospect of a strictly logical approach more difficult than it would otherwise be on this most contentious matter. I support the introduction of the Bill. I hope the House will examine it carefully at all stages, because while some of the matters in it are undoubtedly an improvement on our present laws, others are fraught with great dangers. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON (Papakura): I listened to the member for Porirua with great interest because I respect his views on these matters and others associated with it. However, on this occasion I cannot agree with his proposition that the Bill be introduced. Many of the reasons why some of us oppose the measure have been well canvassed, and, in some instances, eloquently so. An elected assembly of this kind needs to ask of such a measure what good it will do, how the community will benefit, and how the well-being and good of the community will be enhanced. I agree with some earlier speakers who noted that there is no recent compelling, novel, or dramatic evidence to suggest that the customs, norms, and conventions that have served us so well for so long in this and other areas should be changed. It is common and natural to allude to the experiences in other countries. However, this is New Zealand; we are New Zealanders, and I believe that we should trust our own judgment in these matters. The second point, and it is an obvious one, is that, because there is a free vote on such an issue, a member's own attitude bears heavily on his or her reaction. My opinion on the matter is largely governed by my having served for many years as a secondary school teacher. Indeed, at the age of 12 I went to a boarding school, at which I remained for 5 years, and, as the House knows, I served as Minister of Education for nearly 6 years. I say to the member for Wellington Central, who has introduced the Bill, that I believe - as a result of my experience and knowledge through a close association with the teaching and training of young people for a long time - that the Bill she has brought to the House this morning would bring untold misery, dissatisfaction, dissension, and discord into the schools, particularly the secondary schools. I come back to where I started: given all that, what good does it do? How is the climate of the nation enhanced, and how are the training platforms of our young people bettered by this sort of proposition? Finally - and I ask the member for Wellington Central to bear this in mind I believe that the member for Invercargill was right when he said that the people outside this assembly would be surprised that, at a time of difficulty for New Zealand in so many ways, we are devoting attention to this matter at this time of the year. I also throw into the debate, with no animosity intended, that the author of the Bill - and I take the word of her colleagues that her motives are genuine-is, nevertheless, a Government Whip. Is this an attempt to divert Parliament and the country from the weighty measures that are and should be properly before it at this time? Dr MICHAEL CULLEN: I raise a point of order, sir. I make it clear that the Bill is not a Government measure. It is a private member's Bill, and the Government caucus was notified of it as a matter of courtesy. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: Speaking to the point of order, I did not suggest that it was a Government measure. I have been in the House long enough to understand what is a private member's Bill and what is not. I just said, and I repeat, that I throw into the discussion that the measure is being introduced by a Government Whip. ACTING SPEAKER (TREVOR YOUNG): There is nothing for me to rule on. A question was asked, and it has been adequately answered. Hon. MERV WELLINGTON: Thank you, sir. In conclusion, I believe that two questions need to be asked on an issue of this kind: is it essential, is it desirable, or is it neither; or, is it right, or is it wrong? The measure is neither essential nor desirable, and it is certainly not right. HELEN CLARK (Mt Albert): I begin by commending the member for Wellington Central for her courage in bringing the measure forward. It is always easier not to take a position on issues of this kind, and it is always easier to leave this matter firmly swept under the carpet. It is easier to ignore the very real human rights issue involved in denying a minority of the population its civil rights. It is to the credit of the member for Wellington Central that she has not ducked the issue, but has been prepared to stand up for the human and civil rights of a minority of the people of this country. I consider the Bill to be very much a human rights issue. The one question it poses to us as members is whether consenting adult males should be regarded as criminals in the eyes of the law because of their sexual preferences and practices. The Bill challenges us to put aside our prejudices and predispositions, and appeals to the rational side of each of us for some tolerance and acceptance of the sexual orientation and practices of others. I take the view that what consenting adults do in private is none of my business, and it is not the business of the law of the land. Accordingly, I support the introduction of the Bill. I agree with the member for Wellington Central, who said that basic social justice demands that we now pass the Bill. It is unjust and unjustifiable to continue to oppress a large section of the population because of their sexual preferences. When considering whether or not to decriminalise we should bear in mind that among Western countries with which we generally compare ourselves New Zealand and Ireland share the rather dubious distinction of being the only countries to apply blanket criminal sanctions to homosexuality. A book called The World Human Rights Guide gives New Zealand the top rating of any country in the world on human rights issues. Together with Denmark and Finland we score 96 percent in terms of compliance with generally recognised human rights matters. The only blot that the authors of that guide could find on New Zealand's human rights record was its denial of civil rights to male homosexuals. New Zealand could be proud of having a human rights record close to 100 percent if the Bill were passed. A reading of the Bill shows that it does not promote homosexuality but removes the criminal sanctions against it. It removes criminal sanctions on homosexual contact between consenting adults. The Bill ensures that the same protection from homosexual activity will be given to adolescent men and boys as is given to adolescent women and girls from heterosexual activity. Sexual assault on a 12-year-old, whether a boy or a girl, will attract a term of imprisonment of up to 10 years. Sexual assaults on a boy-as against a girl elsewhere in the law-aged between 12 years and 16 years will attract a term of imprisonment of up to 7 years. In my view that constitutes adequate legal protection for male and female children and adolescents from predatory adults-and, unfortunately, they are about. Practical protection from predatory adults depends on greater public awareness of the problem of sexual abuse. An unfortunate myth is sometimes propounded that homosexuality and child molestation are connected. Research evidence suggests that it is overwhelmingly adult heterosexuals who offend in child molestation. It is no argument against the Bill to link child molestation to homosexuality. That is an unfair link. The Bill provides for equality in other areas. Men who indecently assault other men will be treated with the same severity as men who indecently assault women, and such an offence will be punishable with a term of up to 7 years' imprisonment. The offence of keeping a brothel for either male or female prostitution will be treated with equal severity. Some unfortunate myths are propounded in the community that may have prevented some people from rationally considering the decriminalisation of homosexuality. One myth is that homosexuality is an abnormal practice. Nothing could be further from the truth. Homosexuality is part of the normal range of human sexual responses, as Kinsey's research in the United States 40 years ago bears out. I remind members that that research found that 37 percent of white males have some overt homosexual experience between the ages of 16 years and 55 years; 25 percent have more than incidental homosexual experience for at least 3 years during that age-span; 18 percent have at least as much homosexual experience as heterosexual experience for at least 3 years of their lives; 13 percent have more homosexual than heterosexual experience for at least 3 years; 10 percent are more or less exclusively homosexual for at least 3 years; 8 percent are exclusively homosexual for at least 3 years between the ages of 16 years and 55 years; and 4 percent are exclusively homosexual throughout their lives after adolescence. I find nothing threatening about those findings or about the incidence of homosexuality in the community. I believe that research shows that there has been widespread homosexual practice for many years in the international community, and there always has been, which is evidence of its normality as one of a range of human experiences. In the end, exclusive homosexual preference is a minority taste, but that is not a reason for the minority who prefer that taste to be persecuted. Our society, and others that suppress homosexual expression, do great psychological damage to those individual human beings who are orientated to homosexuality. One can imagine the trauma inflicted on people who are told throughout their lives that their behaviour is disgusting and filthy. It is important that we remove that stigma. Another myth is that homosexuality equates with promiscuity. A law such as ours tends to promote promiscuity. Our law works against the formation of stable relationships, because stable homosexual relationships attract more attention from snooping neighbours who might alert the authorities. It is hoped that, with decriminalisation, homosexuals will be able to form stable relationships with the sanction of the law. One does not promote homosexuality in saying that, but recognises that it exists in the community, and that it should not be an unlawful activity. The Bill calls for a conscience vote. It is not a Government Bill. Individual members must make up their minds on how to vote without direction from their Whips. I ask all members to think carefully before exercising their consciences, because the human and civil rights of other people are in their hands. Are members prepared to allow their consciences to stand in the way of human rights fulfilment for others? I ask those whose initial predisposition is not to support the Bill to allow it to be introduced so that the evidence can be considered at a later stage. PAUL EAST (Rotorua): Many parliamentary observers would consider that the best debates that take place in the House are those that concern difficult conscience issues. Although I disagree with many of the members who have spoken, I would not question their sincerity or compassion. It is difficult for members to try to resolve these problems when we do not have the comfort of our caucuses. We have to grapple with our own consciences before finally deciding how we will vote. I disagree with the member for Mount Albert, because I believe that homosexual behaviour is unnatural, that it is something most of us find abhorrent, and that it should in no way be encouraged. If it is made lawful there is a risk that it will be more visible and more open, and perhaps younger people will accept it as a normal way of life. That should not happen. On the other hand, little is achieved by persecuting those who have taken up the homosexual way of life, particularly if they pursue it privately without offending the moral standards of most people. As a practising lawyer, I share the thoughts of the member for Palmerston North. I have also seen something of the agony caused by our existing legislation. Given that position, I will vote for the introduction of the Bill. I do so with considerable reluctance, because it has many defects. I must say that I am unlikely to support it in its present form beyond the first reading. I believe that those sentiments are shared by many of my colleagues with whom I have discussed the matter informally, and who will also be voting for the first reading. It is a serious matter that Parliament should study. It is a serious matter that a select committee should investigate, hear evidence upon, and then report back to the House upon. I wish to make my position clear, although I will vote for its first reading, I will not support the Bill in its present form beyond that. I cannot countenance the legislation of homosexuality for those under the age of 20 years. We all know that teenagers are impressionable; they pass through a period of emotional transition. I believe the age limit in the Bill should be 20. Similarly, I am concerned about the human rights amendments, because that part of the Bill attempts to establish the idea that a homosexual life-style is no different from a heterosexual one. At that point I depart from the thinking of the author of the Bill. The argument about AIDS that has been put forward by the proponents of the Bill is specious. No doctor or any authority would discourage a homosexual person from seeking help. I do not believe that the present law can be shown to have discouraged homosexuals who believe they may suffer from AIDS from seeking such assistance. I repeat-while I will vote for the first reading there is much that I oppose. I believe I speak for many members who will vote for the first reading but who hold similar reservations. ALLAN WALLBANK (Gisborne): My words are few and my message is abundantly clear. I have a deep and sincere belief that what is written in the Bible is the right and proper way to conduct and discipline one's life, irrespective of whether or not one has religious inclinations. Christian teaching is explicit on the matter of sodomy and personal behaviour. Verse 16 of the general epistle of Jude in the New Testament states, on false teachers: " These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.” Homosexuality is not only an unnatural act but also a very dangerous one. With the epidemic spread of AIDS almost upon us, I will not be responsible for passing legislation that will place my fellow New Zealanders at greater risk to this deadly disease. The people of Gisborne did not elect me to this office to be irresponsible. What I believe to be important right now are the fundamental concerns of our people - the right to a home, a job, and a decent standard of living. Those are our priorities. I will not vote for the Bill. NEIL MORRISON (Pakuranga): As several other members want to speak, I shall be brief. Very few members could have come from the kind of closeted, fervent Christian environment that I come from. However, many Christians would now consider me to be a total backslider, probably not without foundation. I have been able to consider the Bill from many angles. I have many homosexual friends whom I hold in the highest esteem. I seek no retribution or repression for anybody who has a different preference. People will always be different. I do not seek to put any people in a position that compromises their civil rights. It is a complicated matter. The first question I must ask is whether it is the purpose of the House to be concerned with the nation's morals. The answer must be yes. Parliament does not allow me to go home and have intercourse with my daughter, for the very good reason that the product of that connection would be a mutation. It is the job of the House to consider the morals of the nation when it comes to censorship. The House is concerned with morals, moral standards, and moral guidelines. The next question is whether I represent my electorate. I have been asked whether I have carried out a referendum in my electorate. It is hardly my fault that we have the crudest form of democracy in the world. I do not expect to make the democratic system of this country work at my expense by holding a referendum, and I have not held one. It is important on an issue such as this that as the representative of my electorate I make my views clear and unquestionable. The next question I must ask is whether civilisation is without beginning or end. Is it just a mutant that evolves, or is it the ordering of men and women in a destiny that we control, which demands a purpose? I believe we are here for a purpose: the purpose of human life and betterment. Therefore, it is incumbent upon us as legislators to provide reasonable guidelines about how society should evolve. If we are here without purpose, with no beginning or end, why do we dissipate so much time talking about nuclear war? We might as well evolve into dust, because nothing would have been lost or gained from our being here. It is the purpose of man to decide his destiny, and for that reason I am speaking on the Bill, and for that reason I oppose the nuclear arms race. Quotations have been pulled from the Bible. It is a grand book, and the quotation that has always impressed me is, “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Perhaps that is why we do not see many broken windows. I have seen the list of those who are good supporters and those who are not. I notice I am on the list of bad people. I do not consider myself to be bad, and I do not consider others to be bad. However, I do consider that it is the job of the House to set some guideline that the nation should follow. In conclusion, I ask three simple questions. Is homosexuality in the natural order of things? I think not. Does it have a purpose for an ongoing civilisation? I think not. Is it productive for the future of our civilisation? I think not. For those reasons I shall vote against the introduction of the Bill. RICHARD NORTHEY (Eden): I strongly support the Bill and congratulate the member for Wellington Central on introducing it. My commitment to the change goes back a long time. I have been a member of the Homosexual Law Reform Society since the mid 1960s, and in my first speech as a candidate for election to Parliament I stated my commitment to that reform. I also committed myself to it in my first speech in the House. As the member for Eden it is important for me to say that the issue of homosexuality was raised in the previous election campaign in that electorate. It is important that it should not be an issue in the future, and that this change will allow all persons equal access to power and responsibility. The Bill will help to bring that about. I do not agree with those who say we should not be considering the matter at this time-that there are other more urgent matters. I consider it to be a vital and urgent matter, for there is a significant group in the community who are denied their rights to equality, human decency, and compassion under the present law. It is fundamentally a question of human rights, both individually and collectively; equality of treatment in relation to activities that are clearly consenting is the right of all. This is a private member's Bill; it is not in any sense a Government Bill. Therefore, it is important for each of us as individuals to determine our views on it. I reject the idea - and the evidence is clear--that homosexual, or, for that matter heterosexual, preference is developed because of corruption by others, through word or deed. That is nonsense, and even the sexual act itself could not create and determine sexual orientation and identity through oppression. People's sexual identity is largely determined before the age of 16 years and cannot be created in that oppressive manner. In that sense, women who are just above the age of 16 must be considered to be in just as much danger from older men as young men are. It should be considered in an equal sense. With the present law operating as it is, when those acts are illegal it is hard for people in their late teens and early 20s who have difficulties in discovering their sexual identity and dealing with their sexual problems to obtain the counselling and advice they need. The lack of access to knowledge and information on this matter intensifies feelings of sexual oppression and inadequacy and must be changed within the schools and elsewhere. The matter of sexually transmitted diseases such as AIDS has been raised before. It is vital that people should be able to seek the information they need and that it should be openly available to them. It is not just a matter of being able to go to a doctor or to a clinic if they feel they have a disease; the issue should be out in the open and the information should be available in a clear and determined manner within the community at large. I reject utterly the view that homosexuals are predominantly child molesters. As others have said in the debate, that problem arises with both homosexual and heterosexual activity predominantly in the case of heterosexual men with young women. The problem must be dealt with equally. In the Bill it is clear that the present levels of penalty, and of social and other action against those who have sexual activity with minors or with people of inferior intellectual ability, remain in the law. That is not an issue. It has been said that homosexual acts cannot be procreative. Yet surely, for all of us in the House and outside it who seek physical affection, the sexual activity involved is rarely carried out for that purpose. It is ludicrous to deny the expression of physical affection to a significant section of the community because of that. Some members asked where the church leaders were and why were they not sending telegrams asking us to make this change. Most of the church leaders in the country support the change. Conferences of most of the major churches have endorsed the need for change on many occasions - the Methodists, the Presbyterians, and others come readily to mind, as well as the Roman Catholic Church. People whose work involves sexual matters psychiatrists, social workers, and others - have spoken of the need for change on this matter. I respect the fact that people find it abhorrent to contemplate acts that are contrary to their own sexual identity. It is crucial to one's own development to set clear boundaries for oneself so that other kinds of activity, therefore, might seem particularly abhorrent and unpleasant. But that should not mean that Parliament should legislate so that our particular standards of sexual behaviour and orientation will be forced on others for whom heterosexual activities may seem just as unnatural and abhorrent. The idea that homosexuality is unnatural when it has been a consistent activity of a substantial minority of the community in all societies and at all ages, whatever the law in those societies, clearly shows that it is as natural as left-handedness or any other form of activity or personal characteristic that is in a minority. As the Kinsey report stated, more than one-third of males have had homosexual activity to the point of orgasm at some stage in their life. It is normal, and it is a matter of removing the myths and restoring basic human rights, basic decency, and equality. I support the change that is required in the Human Rights Commission Act to protect the rights of homosexuals in employment. The referendum idea has effectively been carried out and the issue debated in public, as every recent public opinion poll clearly shows that a majority of people now support the change. I am sure that it is what the people in my electorate and in others want. I have committed myself to it, and the messages of support have been overwhelmingly in favour. I have received only two messages against. Members should take courage so that we can get rid of this oppression and give people their long-overdue rights as human beings. WINSTON PETERS (Tauranga): The right to introduce a private member's Bill is the right of all members of Parliament, but there has been a longstanding convention that Cabinet members, Under-Secretaries, or Whips will give such a Bill to a back-bench member. That convention has stood for decades. The mover of the Bill harms her colleagues, because the public will perceive the Bill as a Labour Party Bill. This is the second time that the member introducing the Bill has done that. I say to her that if she wants this so-called reform to be put before Parliament she should do her colleagues the service of handing it to a back-bench member to introduce, within the constraints of past convention. ACTING SPEAKER: Order! I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member, but the time has come for me to call the member for Wellington Central in reply. FRAN WILDE (Wellington Central): I thank all members of the House who have contributed to the debate. On the whole it has been a serious and constructive one. It is perhaps a pity that we cannot, as one member suggested, have more debates that are taken as seriously. I thank in particular those who spoke in favour of the Bill. The issue will not necessarily always earn them votes in their electorates, and I appreciate that apart from voting on it they have been prepared to speak their minds. I have a couple of comments to make on some of the opinions expressed. Some people have expressed what they said was concern and compassion for homosexuals, but said that they nevertheless thought homosexual activity itself was wrong. I suggest to them that they should consider voting for the Bill at least at this stage, because the second part of the Bill concerning the Human Rights Commission deals with discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation--that is nothing to do with homosexual activity-and if they are to transfer to reality the concern and compassion they say they have they should at least support that part of the Bill. I should like to comment on some of the other remarks that were made. The member for Hauraki was not correct when he said that there was no evidence to support the introduction of the Bill. All reputable social and medical research shows that sexual orientation is established at an early age, and is not changed by a law banning homosexual activity between adults. The Bill has not been introduced with rapidity, as suggested by the member for Hauraki. I did not feel it necessary to send information about my intentions to people who, I knew, were about to organise a campaign against the Bill. There has been much public discussion about the matter, and much discussion among members, and I am sure that nobody was under any illusion that the Bill would not be introduced at some point. The member for Hauraki also talked about moral laxity, and in the next breath he wondered aloud about the direction of the Government's policy. The Bill is not a Government Bill, and it is no use for the member for Pakuranga, the member for Hauraki, and the member for Invercargill to try to make it one. It is correct that space must be made on the Order Paper by the Government, and I thank my colleagues for allowing me space to introduce private business. Yesterday I did my caucus colleagues the courtesy of telling them that I intended to seek leave to introduce the Bill, and they did me the courtesy of saying that they would allow space on the Order Paper. The Bill has not been discussed in the Government caucus. The member for Invercargill mentioned a list. I have not issued a list of M. P. s to anyone. If the member for Invercargill gives that list to the Sunday News he cannot say that it was compiled by the member for Wellington Central, because it was not. The Leader of the Opposition said that the law would not affect the treatment of AIDS. That is not the issue. I have great faith that New Zealand doctors will treat people whenever they need treatment. However, I am not concerned about the treatment; I am concerned about the prevention. A public education campaign requires co-operation from the groups at risk. At present the prime group at risk is homosexuals, who are defined as criminals under the law. That is one of the compelling reasons for change. The member for Palmerston North pointed out that the present law on the statute book is almost a historical accident, and is no longer relevant to the people in our society and how they think. The law is wrong, and it should be repealed. That is why I have introduced the Bill. I believe that children must be strongly protected. I said that the age of 16 should be the age of consent, because I used the rational approach that that is the age for heterosexual activity. If the Bill is introduced it will be referred to a select committee where all the arguments can be examined. I thank the House for allowing me the time to introduce the Bill. The House divided on the question, That leave be given to introduce the Homosexual Law Reform Bill. Ayes, 51 Batchelor; Boorman; Burdon; Burke; Butcher, Caygill; Clark; Colman; Cox; Cullen; de Cleene; Dillon; Dunne; East; Elder; Fraser; Gair; Gerard; Gerbic; Goff; Hercus; Hunt; Isbey; Jeffries; Keall; King; McKinnon; McLay; Marshall, C. R.; Matthewson; Maxwell, R. K.; Northey; Palmer, Prebble; Richardson; Rodger, Scott; Shields; Shirley; Sutton, J. R.; Sutton, W. D.; Tizard; Upton; Wall; Wetere; Wilde; Woollaston; Young, T. J., Young, V. S. Tellers: Mallard; O'Regan. Noes, 24 Angus, Austin, H. N.; Banks; Birch; Cooper, Falloon; Friedlander, Gray; Knapp; Lee; Luxton; McClay; McLean; Maxwell, R. F. H.; Morrison; Peters; Storey; Talbot; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Townshend; Wallbank; Wellington. Tellers. Braybrooke; Jones. Majority for: 27 Motion agreed to. Bill introduced and read a first time. FRAN WILDE: I move, That the Homosexual Law Reform Bill be referred to the Statutes Revision Committee for consideration, and that the proceedings of the committee during the hearing of evidence be open to accredited representatives of the news media. Motion agreed to.

IRN: 3761
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_human_rights_commission_bill_committee_report_back_7_july_1977.html
TITLE: Human Rights Commission Bill - report of the Human Rights Commission Bill Committee
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 7 July 1977
YEAR: 1977
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 7 July 1977, New Zealand Parliament. Mr HARRISON (Hawke's Bay): I am directed by the Human Rights Commission Bill Committee to present the report of the committee on the Human Rights Commission Bill. The committee recommends that the Bill be allowed to proceed as amended. I move, That the report do lie upon the table. The attached Supplementary Order Paper refers to the proposed amendments to the Estate Duty Act, the Income Tax Act, and the Land Tax Act. The committee considered that since there had been no Governor-General's message the amendment should be referred to the Government by way of a Supplementary Order Paper. Between 23 February and 8 June the committee held 13 meetings, including 2 in Auckland and 1 in Christchurch, taking a total of 45 hours to hear 55 oral submissions. There were also 72 written submissions to be considered. In addition, the committee has met 10 times for nearly 22 hours to consider the submissions, and to deliberate on the Bill. This has resulted in 18 pages of amendments. Several people wanted a more explicit definition of the objects of the Bill, and some thought it should be more properly called the equal opportunity or anti-discrimination Bill. Those people apparently did not understand that it simply proposes the establishment of a commission to promote equality of opportunity that is consistent with certain basic human rights, and to set up a tribunal to deal with cases where the commission's attempts at conciliation have failed. The Bill, together with the Race Relations Act 1971, aims to promote tolerance on the grounds of sex, marital status, race, colour, ethnic or national origins, and religious or ethical belief. Many submissions sought to extend the list to include political belief, age, sexual orientation, and several others; but the committee thought that the list in the Bill was enough to start with and that it should be left to the commission to recommend additions to the Act. It therefore extended, in an amended clause 5, the functions of the commission to include that of receiving and inviting representations on any matter affecting human rights. The committee added some definitions to clause 2 to make clearer such expressions as “ethical belief”, “relative", and " superannuation scheme", but omitted the term " marital status". Some members considered it inappropriate and contradictory to put a de facto marriage on all fours with a legal marriage; so the term “marital status” will retain its long established meaning of being married or single. Several submissions asked for “she”, “her”, and “hers” to be added to the words “he”, him”, and “his” wherever they occurred, and for such good English words as " chairman" to become " chairperson". (Time extended.] It is an important Bill, and the extension of time will give me, as chairman of the committee, an opportunity to give a reasonable report. Under the Acts Interpretation Act the male gender embraces the female, and the committee felt that that was sufficient, and did not feel inclined to rewrite the English dictionary. Likewise, some people wanted the Bill to absorb the Race Relations Act, or to have transferred to that Act those clauses that deal with discrimination on the grounds of race, colour, national origin, and so on. However, it was felt that as the Race Relations Act is working pretty well it should be allowed to continue in the meantime. Parliament may decide in the future to consolidate the two Acts. There were some differences of opinion about the powers and requirements of the commission to issue reports and statements. The commission must report annually to the Minister of Justice, and that report must be tabled in Parliament. The committee has amended clause 5, omitted clause 74, and inserted a new clause 5a to make clearer the responsibilities of the commission for making reports, including those to the Prime Minister, and for publishing its findings. The committee received many submissions on the composition of the commission, mainly suggesting that it must contain at least one woman and a representative of a minority racial group. The committee saw dangers in this. Unless the commission is to be greatly enlarged such direct representation of all interests would be impossible. There are obvious difficulties in trying to fit into that small commission all the possible interests the Bill sets out to protect, such as men and women, married and single, European and Polynesian, Christian and humanist. The committee decided against any form of tokenism and plumped for allowing the best and most suitable people to be appointed as commissioners, regardless of sex, race, religion, origin, or colour. The committee had some difficulty with the concept of linking a new human rights commission with the office of the Ombudsman, and finally decided to allow for the fullest possible co-operation between the two by having an ombudsman appointed as a commissioner. He would bring to the new commission something of the status that the office of the Ombudsman has deservedly acquired in its 15 years of experience with comparable problems. Several submissions expressed confusion at the meaning of the various words used in clause 14 to allow for some exceptions based on common sense or practice, such as hairdressing, domestic work, separate accommodation, and public decency. The committee hopes its amendments will have removed any confusion. Many people made submissions on partnerships. Some said that all partnerships should be permitted to refuse to take on new partners for any reason, including colour, race, sex, religion, and so on, while others said that none should. In between were those who wanted the cut-off number raised as high as 25 or lowered down to two. The committee suggests leaving it at six. Sitting suspended from 5. 30 p. m. to 7. 30 p. m. Hon. J. B. GORDON (Acting Leader of the House): A point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek the leave of the House for the House to continue with the reporting back of the Human Rights Commission Bill, which was interrupted by the suspension of the sitting at 5. 30 p. m. Mr SPEAKER: Is it the pleasure of the House that this course be followed? There appears to be no objection. Mr HARRISON: I am reminded that the late Sir Winston Churchill once said, “If you want me to speak immediately, I can speak for 2 hours; if you want me to speak for 5 minutes, give me some notice.” I had some notice, and I worked on this until 1 a. m., so it will be a little shorter than it otherwise would have been. Before the adjournment I was reporting on the Human Rights Commission Bill, and the work the committee had done on it. Several people drew the committee's attention to the possibility of discrimination on unsound actuarial grounds against women taking out life insurance policies or joining superannuation schemes. The former were dealt with in clause 22(6), which the committee has amended to allow distinctions to be made when there are actuarial or statistical data upon which it is reasonable to rely relating to life expectancy, accidents, or sickness. Superannuation caused the committee even greater difficulty than life insurance policies. Most people would accept in principle the need for equality in superannuation schemes, but there is the need to protect those in existing schemes from changes that would be to their disadvantage. Changes that help some people could harm others, and there is a need for a generous period to allow for adjustments. The committee has attempted to reconcile the conflicting interests in such a way that those offering superannuation schemes will not be forced into withdrawing them or deleting some of their beneficial provisions. The committee spent a lot of time on clause 22, particularly subclause (7). We got over this by inserting a new subclause, leaving it to the commission to deal with the female jockey controversy, and satisfied ourselves by protecting the rights of single-sex clubs and of organisers of sporting events such as the men's hurdles or the ladies' golf tournament. I am sure members will be happy about that. Clause 23(5) would have permitted a landlord to refuse accommodation on the ground that a couple were living in a de facto relationship. The committee has deleted this subclause. Indeed, as I said earlier, by omitting the definition of “marital status" from clause 2 the committee has omitted all reference to “de facto" from the Bill. Some witnesses took exception to the so-called busybody clause, clause 32(1)(c), and the discretion conferred on the commission by clause 32(2) not to disclose its reasons for not proceeding with an investigation into a complaint. I am sure members and the public generally will be pleased to hear that the committee has changed the Bill to meet both these objections. In answer to questions about representation by legal counsel and about legal aid, the Department of Justice advised the committee that in the absence of provisions to the contrary a person may appear before the tribunal either in person or represented by somebody else, which would be counsel if you felt so inclined or could afford it. Similarly, legal aid would be available under section 15(1)(h) of the Legal Aid Act 1969 to an applicant who could satisfy the financial and other requirements of a grant. So both of those matters are dealt with. Part IV establishes an equal opportunities tribunal to consider and adjudicate on matters referred to it by or from a human rights commission. Some people saw the tribunal as being an unnecessary bureaucratic development; others were concerned at the constitutional implications in setting up yet another quasi-judicial body to do what the courts should be asked to do. The committee had some sympathy with these views, and in order to tie the tribunal into the court system we have proposed amendments, first, to limit the jurisdiction of the tribunal over claims for damages to that of a magistrate's court, which is at present restricted to $3,000; and, secondly, to allow appeals to the Supreme Court on matters of fact as well as law, including the right to a complete rehearing. Part V, dealing with the functions of the commission in relation to privacy, evoked a fairly favourable response, although some people felt the commission should be able to investigate individual complaints, and others expressed reservation about giving the commission a privacy function at all. This part was amended to remove the obligation of the commission to report on privacy matters referred to it by the Prime Minister, and also to exclude the Wanganui Computer Centre from its jurisdiction. It would be fair to say that most submissions were critical of Part VI, which deals with the commission's functions regarding complaints against industrial unions and professional and trade associations. Clearly this is a question involving Government policy, and the Bill has been left in the form promised by the Government's manifesto - to enable the commission to investigate matters such as the intimidation at Kinleith, which was the subject of the Davidson report in 1975. However, we agreed to an amendment allowing jurisdiction to the Commerce Commission in complaints about trade practices. Finally, I thank those members of the public who, whether as individuals or as representatives of organisations, made submissions on the Bill, thus helping the committee to bring about what I think are significant improvements to it. I wish, too, to thank the members of the committee for their patience and co-operation - and I mean that, because we had a lot of it. I also wish to thank our advisers from the Clerk's office, from the Department of Justice, and from the Parliamentary Counsel. I want, and I am sure the committee would agree wholeheartedly, to thank our committee clerk, who looked after us remarkably well. With the leave of the House, it was agreed that the speaking time allowed the member for Henderson be extended. Hon. Dr A. M. FINLAY (Henderson): I am indebted to the House, although I am not quite sure whether I shall avail myself of the extended time. The first thing I want to take up is the point at which the member for Hawke's Bay, who was also the chairman of the committee, departed, and inform the House that one of our last actions in the committee was to pass a motion congratulating him for the amiable and efficient way in which he chaired the committee. Of course, that was coupled with thanks to the sundry people he has mentioned, whose services have been enormously valuable to us. It was a very wide-ranging committee. I do not know quite how many meetings we had. I know we had 127 submissions, and it was one of the longest committees upon which I have sat. Mr Harrison: It sat for 454/2 hours. Hon. Dr A. M. FINLAY: The member for Hawke's Bay tells me it was 45% hours. Well, I have no reason to doubt that, but it certainly did not seem as long as that, and perhaps that was due Mr Harrison: Plus 22/2 hours in deliberations. Hon. Dr A. M. FINLAY: I shall accept that. No tempers were lost. There were differences of opinion, but it was a good working committee. Having said that, I want to turn to something that is not in the Bill, and is not in any of the similar measures that are springing up all around the world. I hinted at this once or twice, but it did not get a great deal of acceptance, but I think it is a point that deserves mention because it is fundamental to an activity of this kind. There is no provision in it for what might be called the Dr Fell syndrome. You will know the couplet, Mr Speaker: " I do not like thee, Dr Fell. The reason why, I cannot tell.” What this Bill does is to direct itself - as do so many others of its ilk - against discrimination and victimisation. I sincerely hope it does that, or will do it by the time it emerges from the House, with some success, although I am bound to add that up to the moment I believe that too much is being claimed for it, and some of the rhetoric that has been attached to the contents of it by Government members has been a little overblown. The truth is that neither we nor anyone else can legislate against prejudice at its worst, when it takes the form of blind prejudice. You know the kind of thing, Mr Speaker: a couple of people are walking along a street, and one says to the other, " You see that man over there? I hate him", and his companion says, “But you don't even know him”, and the other says, “Of course, that's the reason. I don't know him. That's why I hate him.” That is what I would call blind prejudice at its worst. But there is also something less than that which I believe is innate in all of us, and that is a kind of instinctive prejudice. All of us just do not “take to" some people, and I am sure there is nothing that anyone can do to legislate that feeling out of existence. There is no way of outlawing feelings of that kind, and it would be unwise to try to do so, but I also think it is realistic to accept their existence. Although I mentioned this once or twice during the committee's deliberations, and wondered if we could include in the Bill some words that might take heed of this very human emotion-perhaps I should call it a failing I was also fearful of any real attempt to do so. What we have before us is dubbed a Human Rights Commission Bill, and it is significant that on one or two occasions, when we moved out of Wellington to hear evidence, the notice board directing people where they were to go referred to the “Human Rights Bill”, and many people have thought of it as such a Bill. Of course, it is not. There is no definition of “human rights” in the Bill; at best it might be called an equal opportunities Bill, because a tribunal of that name - an equal opportunities tribunal - is set up within the framework of it. It is true that it provides equal opportunities for some, but it excludes a provision that some of us tried to have included-some protection against political discrimination. Various areas of discrimination are outlawed, but not, much to our regret, political discrimination; so I think at best one might call it an “equal opportunities for some” Bill, and really no more than that. That prompts me to ask the question: should we have a human rights Bill, or it might be called a Bill of rights? That implies something of the nature of a written constitution, about which there have been divergent opinions that I do not want to go into at this stage. But at all events, whether or not we should have a human rights Bill or a Bill of rights, I believe this Bill should acknowledge, however faintly, the concept of human rights as such, and, at the urging of the Opposition members on the committee, the long title was altered to give such an indication. I should like to read to the House the new long title of the Bill. It is described as “An Act to establish a Human Rights Commission and to promote the advancement of human rights in New Zealand in general accordance with the United Nations International Covenants on Human Rights”. I moved, and my colleagues supported me, that we might consider incorporating the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights of 1948 as a schedule, not with the thought that it would be binding of course, it could never be binding without formal enactment - but as a kind of guide to the commission that it should have regard to what I think are the very profound truths contained in that declaration. There are, we found, some technical obstacles to that, because the 1948 declaration has been overtaken by subsequent covenants, which is why the phrase " international covenants” is used in the long title; it might have been misleading to have incorporated a declaration subscribed to by most members of the United Nations, and have cast eyes back on to something rather than that which has supplanted it, and which is, it appears, of much greater length than can possibly be accommodated as a schedule. I still believe it would have been valuable to tie what many people will still regard as human rights legislation - although that is not the case - to the Declaration of Human Rights or the various stages by which the United Nations has affirmed its attachment to the notion of human rights. This, of course, is particularly important at present, when President Carter is making such an issue of this in American foreign policy. I pass to another point, on which we had a great deal of evidence and, I think it is not putting it too high to say, a good deal of pressure, and that was to include the phrase " sexual orientation" as a ground for non-discrimination, along with the other characteristics such as racial origin, ethnic origin, and so on. The purpose of that was designed to meet the case of the confirmed homosexual, but that phrase " sexual orientation" in my judgment goes too far. It is a sad fact, but nevertheless a fact, that some people are sexually oriented towards others of tender years, whether they are of the same or opposite sex. I would not countenance that, and I do not believe any member of the House would countenance it or want to give respectability to a situation of that kind. I believe that the real solution to homosexual problems - and they are very real indeed - is an open and direct change of the law, which I support now as I supported it when the Bill promoted by the member for Egmont was before the last Parliament. I think that is the real way to go about meeting that problem, with all its gravity, which I acknowledge. I pass over with the barest of mention Parts V and VI of the Bill, which deal respectively with privacy and industrial relations. In my judgment they are excrescences on what has otherwise been made into a tolerable Bill, although it is still misleading in some respects. I say no more about them at this stage, but I have no doubt that during the passage of the Bill through the House there will be a great deal of discussion on those two parts. We will do our best to see that the part dealing with industrial relations is deleted, and, if the one dealing with privacy is to remain, that it is considerably altered. The Government's original plan as set out in its manifesto in fact, in both manifestoes on this occasion, including the one that has been resiled from - was to enlarge and enormously extend the jurisdiction of the Ombudsman. That was totally misconceived, and betrayed a fundamental misunderstanding of the role of the Ombudsman or the Ombudsmen, and it is a matter of some satisfaction, to me at least, that the Government has gradually been put on the right track-but I suppose it is too much to expect gratitude from the Government for the assistance we have given it in this direction. I turn now to one or two changes that appear in the Bill. We have added a phrase dealing with ethical belief, which I think is a step forward. We have defined it, with some difficulty, but I think it will turn out to be a workable definition, and we have made two complementary changes. One is to omit the definition of " marital status”, which originally encompassed a de facto situation; but a kind of compensating factor for that, one by which the Government members appeared to assuage their consciences, was to delete clause 23(5), which omitted a de facto relationship from a tenancy situation. Again, I believe we will hear a good deal more discussion on that, so I will say no more about it now. The provision requiring reports to be made by the commission to the Prime Minister has been significantly, and, I believe, substantially, altered for the better. As it originally stood, the right and power of the Prime Minister to call upon what I would like to think is a totally independent body to make reports to him has been substantially cut down. That is, I have no doubt, a very considerable improvement. Another matter which is possibly of less appeal to the public generally than to us - and I suppose this encompasses lawyers especially - is a drafting technique new to New Zealand, and which I think in this case is very advantageous. I cite the change in clause 14(3)(b), which appears also in the new clause: “In the case of a position such as that of attendant in a public lavatory or as a person responsible for the fitting of clothes to customers or others”. The point to which I direct attention is exemplification. I do not think it has ever happened in our legislation before, and I have the word of the Chief Parliamentary Counsel that it is an innovation that we should try to give to the courts an illustration of the kind of activity we mean by exemplifying certain areas in which it could apply. The technique has been adopted elsewhere in this kind of legislation. I think it is very apt here, because it proves extraordinarily difficult to define different kinds of occupation, different kinds of approaches, and different kinds of victimisation, and as a guide to the courts we have set out in a number of clauses exemplification of this by using the phrase " such as” and going on to say so and so, and so and so. I will wait, of course necessarily, to see just how the courts or the commission regard this. It is a development and a novelty in our way of drafting statutes, but, I think, at any rate in this field, it has a great deal to commend it. We had considerable difficulty with insurance policies. A good deal of evidence presented to us indicated discrimination between male and female in the benefits open to them when taking out life insurance policies particularly. However, on actuarial figures there seems to be some justification for this. The figures seem to demonstrate that women have a greater longevity than men, and as long as that is the case, naturally insurance companies will want to adjust their premiums and the benefits derivable from their policies in relation to the expected length of life of the individual insured. We have therefore added a clause which enables that to be done so long as it is based on actuarial or statistical data upon which it is reasonable to rely relating to life expectancy, accidents, or sickness. I have already mentioned that in clause 23(5) the tenancy provision has been dropped as a quid pro quo for the elimination of the definition of marital status. I come now to clause 25, which was the object of a good deal of representation, because, quite honestly, it was very difficult to understand. That clause has been replaced by a substitute which is sufficiently summed up by its side note, “Discrimination by subterfuge”. We considered that the Bill should have - and it now has - a provision enabling the commission to look behind the words or the appearance of some situation, and penetrate to the actuality of it. If there is some subterfuge of what is really a means of discrimination but appears not to be, the commission can go to the heart of the matter and rule on it in accordance with the reality of the situation rather than its description in words. We did face up to, with, I must confess, some hesitation and not total unanimity, the use of words that have a gender associated with them. We have added to one clause, “being a term such as carpenter, engineer, telephonist, seaman, or typist.” The word “seaman”, of course, does import masculine gender, but I would find it very hard to adopt the word " seapeople”. I do not think that “seaman” excludes the possibility that a woman may undertake a seagoing career. I do not think she would really feel denigrated if in those circumstances she was described as a seaman. I would certainly see her described as that rather than as a seaperson. We deliberately included that one word, which has that clear masculinity attached to it, as an example of the kind of thing. Though we do not want it carried so far that there would be sex stereotyping, we did throw out that slight suggestion that the mere fact that a gender was indicated with an occupation need not necessarily deter the commission from having some regard to a gender attached to an occupation which has traditionally been that of that particular gender, although this is by no means to indicate that we think it should be exclusively reserved for that gender in the future. Hon. DAVID THOMSON (Minister of Justice): As Minister in charge of the Bill, it gives me great pleasure to see it brought back to the House after a very long and detailed study by the special select committee. I thank those who served on the committee, and join with the member for Henderson in paying tribute to the chairman, the member for Hawke's Bay, who did a magnificent job. I thank also those officers who assisted the committee - Miss Bowden of the Clerk's office, and as Minister of Justice I must mention Mrs Lowe and Miss Margaret Nixon of the Department of Justice. The Bill is of particular pleasure to me because it is within the family of legislation dealing with the rights of the individual. I relate back to the first of the Ombudsman Acts of the late Ralph Hanan in the early 1960s; then through the Race Relations Act, in which I had a part to play with the late Dan Riddiford in guiding it through the House in 1971; the matter of women's rights in the Equal Pay Act when I was Minister of Labour in 1972; and the private Bills brought down in 1973, 1974, and 1975 by the Minister of Works and Development and myself concerning the rights of women. The National Government had the issue of human rights as the first of its policy planks, so it is a pleasure to me to see that what was a good Bill when it was introduced and referred to the special committee has now come back a better Bill. Indeed, in the introduction to his evidence the retired Chief Ombudsman, Sir Guy Powles, said: “This is a good Bill, a very good Bill, and I think the Government is to be congratulated upon introducing it. It is a marked step forward in the social field, and could have profound beneficial effects on New Zealand society.” I am sure Sir Guy would agree with members of the committee that it is an even better Bill because of his assistance and that of others, and because of the attention that we, and the officers assisting us, have given to it. I do not propose to speak at length at this stage, but I want to deal with one or two logistic matters, if I may call them that. Members will want to know when the Bill as amended will be available in printed form. I am told that there is a good prospect of having it tomorrow, and that would be an advantage for its distribution and study before we come to the second reading, which, of course, will be after the recess. Miss Bowden of the Clerk's office has prepared a record of the principal amendments made by the committee, and it has been circulated to members and will be of considerable help to them. I have distributed a press statement that I hope will lead to a better understanding of the effects of the amended Bill. Over recent weeks some people have come to believe that the Bill is a charter for sexual disorientation, I suppose is the word for homosexuality, and that it is a charter for de facto marriages. I have had to sign many letters correcting that impression, and saying that the Human Rights Commission Bill contains no reference to homosexuals, and that certainly the Government had no intention of adding any reference to the Bill; and that we had also removed the definition of marital status, and hence the reference to de facto marriages. But that has already been adverted to. The member for Henderson said that this is not a human rights Bill, but more an equal opportunities Bill. The fact is that it is what it says it is a Human Rights Commission Bill . It sets up a commission and gives it certain functions, particularly including the promotion of human rights, and a better understanding of human rights and of the international covenants dealing with them. It does not pretend to cover the whole realm of human rights, nor to codify them. It is wise to take this first step and make quite sure - in fact it is not the first step, because our Race Relations Bill in 1971 was. Too many people stumble by taking too big a step at the beginning. It will be all the better because there is no attempt at the beginning to codify every human right. I draw attention to the amendments we have made to the Race Relations Act. It has been amended by the schedules to this Bill to align its provisions with the Human Rights Commission Bill. We do not propose to amalgamate the two. Each stands on its own. The Race Relations Conciliator's office continues on its own, although he becomes a member of the commission. I propose to have the amended Race Relations Act reprinted; that will be necessary because of the substantial changes made. As recommended to the select committee by the Race Relations Conciliator, a new provision will be included in the Race Relations Act making it unlawful for any person to incite hostility against others on the grounds of colour, race, ethnic, or national origin; and the Race Relations Conciliator may exercise his powers in relation to conciliation and civil proceedings. That is a new offence that needs to be brought to everybody's attention, because in this country we have had a great tradition of tolerance-of more than tolerance, of pride - in our multicultural society, and in each other's characteristics in that society. Here we have a statutory sanction against anybody who deliberately sets out to incite hostility against others on the ground of colour, race, ethnic, or national origin. If that goes around the world, as other information about New Zealand's attitudes on race has, to those persons to whom information has previously gone, it will do a great deal for New Zealand's international reputation. This is a very good Bill made better, and I thank those who have taken part in the discussions. We will watch with very great interest the establishment of the commission. Certainly it is my intention to get the best possible people appointed as members, among them a woman, or women. I want people representing our society as it is. Hon. Mrs T. W. M. TIRIKATENE-SULLIVAN (Southern Maori): With the member for Henderson, I express my pleasure at having been a member of the committee, which met for almost 46 hours, in a total of 23 meetings. I was able to attend three-quarters of those meetings. I compliment the chairman and the other members; it was very pleasing and gratifying to be able to agree to disagree with Government members, and to do so with impeccable civility. I should like to see more of this civility in debates in the House. I pay a well earned compliment to Beth Bowden, who serviced the committee, for her quiet competence, thoroughness, and efficiency. Her analysis of submissions made on the various clauses was very helpful in enabling a more thorough and intelligent discussion. I also compliment Mrs Lowe and Miss Nixon of the Department of Justice, and, of course, Mr Walter Iles. Much advantage was taken of their services and expertise. I added to their labours at our final meeting when I requested that there should be a totally new explanatory note to the Bill for the benefit of the public, which would no doubt show interest and curiosity, and possibly even more enthusiasm than was shown by those who made submissions. While my request could not be met because of the pressures on our law drafting staff, at least we were able to agree that some explanation in lay language should be distributed with the amended copy of the Bill. This is immensely important so that the community can understand the extensive amendments made in the committee. Of the 127 submissions received, one-third came from women's groups, women academics, and individual women. This would be something of a record, and this significant participation by women is indicative of the new articulation shown by a group that has felt its human rights were inadequately recognised. Therefore, in passing, I can tell the Minister that the hope he expressed this evening that at least one or more women will be among the commissioners will be regarded with considerable interest by those articulate and intelligent women who appeared before the committee. As I have said, one-third of the submissions presented to the committee were made by women. I think of the Council for Equal Pay and Opportunity and the Committee on Education for Women. The National Council of Women and the Federation of University Women presented submissions, as did various groups of university women; the Association of Business and Professional Women; the Maori Women's Welfare League; the Women's Electoral Lobby from four parts of New Zealand-Rotorua, Christchurch, Nelson, and Hamilton; the National Organisation of Women, not only the head office but also the Hastings, Whangarei, and Blenheim groups; Zonta (New Zealand), Wellington and Rotorua; the Homemakers of New Zealand; and also more than half a dozen other feminist groups and various individuals. Most of those submissions expressed the expectation that at least one of the commissioners would be a woman. I am generalising, but I believe that is a reasonable reflection of the women's view. It was also hoped that one of the members of the tribunal would be a woman. Other groups expressing significant interest in the Bill were church groups, almost a dozen social services groups, the Social Workers Association, Halfway House, the Presbyterian Social Service Association, and others. Organisations such as the Intellectually Handicapped Children's Society made representations that the Bill did not provide for their needs. I considered that each submission had considerable validity. These organisations pointed out areas of human rights that were omitted from the Bill, and I hope I shall have time to refer to them. The disadvantaged groups that presented submissions - the Specific Learning Difficulties groups, the Intellectually Handicapped Society, those concerned with the aged, and medical professionals - will not be satisfied with the reported-back version of the Bill, because matters of special concern to them are not specifically covered. Others who made submissions were the civil libertarians from throughout New Zealand, the United Nations, and the Polynesian groups, whose representatives were very articulate - the New Zealand Maori Council, the Maori Women's Welfare League, the Pacific Island councils, and the Samoan Council. Submissions were also presented by Amnesty Aroha, the Race Relations Conciliator relating to his role, and ACORD. I mention those groups specifically because of their assertion that their needs have not been explicitly met in the Bill. For instance, the Intellectually Handicapped Children's Society argued for the inclusion of clauses protecting the right of the mentally retarded not only to proper medical and physical care, but also to such education, training, rehabilitation, and guidance as would better enable them to develop their abilities to the fullest possible extent, on the ground that every New Zealand citizen is entitled to the opportunity to achieve the most complete physical, mental, and emotional development possible, irrespective of age, race, sex, or religion. This was one of the groups that sought to change the name of the Bill if the appeal made in their submissions was not met. The group's representatives suggested that the Bill should more appropriately be entitled the “Equal Opportunity Bill”, as many aspects of human rights are not dealt with in the Bill. The group representing those with specific learning difficulties also made particularly appealing submissions, pointing out that it was only reasonable that they should be able to present their concern for the human rights of their members to the proposed Human Rights Commission because the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of the Child was specifically concerned with their group. They felt we should be also. SpeLD (New Zealand) Incorporated was therefore deeply concerned about the narrow limitations of the Bill as presented, pointing out that no specific provision is made to allow the access of interested parties to the commission. I must observe that the rights of the child as laid down in the United Nations declaration are not adequately met in the Bill. In that declaration it is stated that the child who is mentally, physically, or educationally handicapped should receive the special treatment or care required by his particular condition. SpeLD proposed that a general clause be inserted in the Bill to the effect that where the New Zealand Government is a party to any international instrument in human rights, the commission be required to hear submissions from interested parties. With this I must agree. The committee members were careful to enable the commission to establish its own working reference, and I certainly hope that it will be able to encompass these requirements, although they are not specifically recognised in the amended Bill being reported back. Mr SPEAKER: I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member, but her time has expired. Mr W. R. AUSTIN (Awarua): During my speech when I seconded the Address in Reply I said that I wanted to talk about social legislation, particularly as it applied to the protection of the individual. I was referring, of course, to the introduction of the Human Rights Commission Bill. It is interesting to look back at the National Party's policy statement, where reference is made to an unease at the expansion of governmental and administrative power that became apparent during the term of the socialist Labour Government, between 1973 and 1975. I believe it was as a consequence of that growing concern that the National Party's policy was devised to introduce this type of legislation. The Bill will help to prevent the expansion of governmental and administrative power, and will place a new emphasis and focus new attention on the rights of the individual. Of course, there is nothing new about this. The National Government has a long history of promoting legislation to protect the rights of the individual, particularly during the past 15 years. During that time it has introduced legislation setting up the office of Ombudsman, and the Race Relations Conciliator. Further progressive legislation protecting women's rights has been introduced by our present Minister of Justice. This legislation was designed to focus attention on and to provide a legislative answer in outlawing discrimination, but it was also aimed at promoting the advancement of human rights, in general sympathy with the principles of the United Nations and international covenants and other overseas legislation enacted in the same field. I believe the Bill provides for the proper formation of a Human Rights Commission whose function will be to promote respect for individual people, irrespective of race, colour, sex or creed. It offers hope for a great number of people who in the past have felt that they, as individuals, have suffered from discrimination. This forward, far-reaching type of legislation will have an impact on our future social life. In the first instance, it is designed to set up a commission to look at the woes, worries, concerns, and complaints of individuals; to offer a charter of hope to those without great private means; to offer hope to those people who are timid and who in the past would not have exposed their individual affairs to such scrutiny; and it charges the tribunal with the very delicate but important job of always trying to reach conciliation between the aggrieved party and the other parties involved in their claims. This really is the key, and is certainly the paramount purpose of the tribunal - to conciliate between the parties-because the area involves very human issues which cannot always be properly measured scientifically. This legislation deals with the emotions, thoughts, and aspirations of individuals, and surely conciliation should be not only the answer to many problems but also a guide for the future, giving the direction to be followed by those interested in the same area. Following on from the establishment of the commission, the Bill proposes the establishment of a tribunal to deal with those difficult cases where agreement cannot be reached through conciliation. The functions of the tribunal will play an important part in instilling confidence in the people, who would soon lose faith in a tribunal or a commission without teeth. It might be said that the tribunal is the instrument through which people will see that justice is being done. I very much enjoyed working on this select committee. This is the first real piece of legislation I have personally been involved in on a select committee, and it is good to see it coming to fruition. I was impressed with the variety and the large number of sources from which submissions came to the committee. They were not just from protesting, busybody groups or eager legal beagles, religious quarters or disenchanted racial groups. They came from individuals and groups representing every section of the community, and this wide cross-section that gave evidence indicates the general interest in the Bill, and the recognition of its importance as a major part in all future social legislation. It is pertinent to comment on the harmonious composition of the committee. It was a pleasure to work with members of the Opposition alongside my own party colleagues. The information drawn from many sources has added greatly to the changes, and the nature of those changes, made to the Bill. Each member on the select committee made an important contribution to its findings. We were, of course, well served by officers from various Government departments and of this House, who were there to advise the committee. The work proved to be a worth-while experience, and I look forward to the passing of this Bill through all stages. I personally compliment the chairman of the committee, who steered us wisely and well, and I also pay tribute to the Minister of Justice, who had the forethought to institute the original Bill. In time it will lead to further social legislation of which New Zealand can be proud. It takes its place properly alongside the legislation of those nations who have embraced the spirit of race relations in the best sense. Mr LANGE (Mangere): As a member of the select committee for some period, I echo the words of previous speakers as to the pleasure of serving on the committee. It was, of course, my first such experience, and it was satisfying to work with members from both sides of the House and to feel, except in matters of policy which were ultimately determined, that any member on the committee had an opportunity to make a valid contribution and, in some cases, of being able to point to specific matters and having amendments adopted. It certainly gave me an early introduction to the worth of being a parliamentarian, because it was possible on that committee to feel as though something positive was being done. I reflect with interest on the submissions made while I was sitting on the committee. It seemed as though those right-wing groups making submissions saw something of the challenge which is at the root of legislation on individual rights, because those who were professedly ultra-right - and I do not suggest they had any connection with the Government - were quick to say that any protection against discrimination meant that we were placing a fetter on those who would wish to have the licence to discriminate, and to pick and choose, on the basis of prejudice or bias. They were forthright, but they did us a duty, because they showed exactly what we are doing when we venture into legislation on human rights. I confess I do not share the confidence of the member for Awarua, who described this Bill as a charter of hope, because the response to the balances which must be examined in legislating for rights, as set out in this measure, is cautious - a testing of the water in specific areas of human rights, instead of going to the issue of whether we, as a Parliament, will stop people overtly displaying prejudice or bias. This legislation ventures into stopping that bias being demonstrated when it comes to matters of employment and the access to goods and services. Tests or targets of bias are limited to such matters as religion, ethical belief, race, and marital status. When this House eventually accepts the challenge of determining what human rights consist of, there will be a lot of other criteria. Where in this legislation is there a charter of a hope for children, for the disabled, or for the aged? Where is there a charter of hope for those people who hold a variety of political opinions but who are not urban guerrillas, and yet who by this legislation can well be discriminated against? The challenge now is to get much further into an understanding of what we are seeking to protect, and then, as parliamentarians, to determine whether we will take up the challenge of proscribing the right of people to be obnoxious, because it is only in this legislation that the fringes of this type of prejudice are touched. I accept and welcome those provisions which allow for positive discrimination to be exercised where to do so would enable a particular group to achieve some measure of equality or not to be put down, but it is inconsistent with some of the views which are expressed from time to time. I do not regard positive discrimination as showing favouritism or bias to any minority, ethnic, or other group. I look forward to positive discrimination being implemented by this commission. I am pleased that during the hearings of the committee the question of penalties was grappled with. As the Bill started out the penalties were paltry, but they have now soared to the level of penalties allowed in a magistrate's court, on a matter of human rights. From a resumé of the legislation I am pleased to see that there might possibly even be the power for the Administrative Division of the Supreme Court to venture into so critical an area, and to have a measure of control in the awarding of what will approximate to damages. During the hearings submissions were given which sought assurances on the access which people would have to the commission, assurances which still have not been forthcoming either in an amendment or by a statement from those who are to guide it through the House. I am sure that many people who presented the submissions are concerned about what access they would have, and would be assured if a statement was made that New Zealand people will have access to remedies available under this legislation. I mention that this is a cautious first step. The Bill as amended provides that until 1982 an employer may discriminate on the grounds of sex where there are no separate sanitary facilities. I should have thought that, in a matter which required the intervention of the Legislature in something as fundamental to the National Party as this legislation has been stated to be, 5 years might seem a sufficiently generous time to allow someone to procure another lavatory. Is this House really going to stand back and allow discrimination on the grounds of sex to persist for 5 years on such a puny matter as this? I hope that in later sittings the House will do something about amending this. I now want to deal with two provisions in the Bill which are quite inadequate and out of keeping. The first is clause 58 which deals with privacy. We cannot pretend that this is any acceptable subsitute for the privacy legislation which has been promised. It has no teeth; it is a matter of recommendation, and gives no relief to any individual person and does nothing to enhance privacy. I turn as well to clause 59, which begins Part VI. This clause is so different from anything which goes before that one wonders how it was conceived in the same thought. The clause allows a dissident person who believes that there has been some form of victimisation or wrongful inducement to go to the commission, which may thereafter, if conciliation cannot be effected, refer the matter to the Industrial Court. I suggest that the provisions of clause 59 are there because of political policy which is completely unrelated to human rights. In fact, all those matters in clause 59 are covered by the existing criminal law. Quite simply, what is proposed here is to invite people to engage in a procedure which will result in conciliation and in reference to the Industrial Court when what has been complained of is extortion, which is covered in the Crimes Act and punishable by 14 years' imprisonment. What an extraordinary turn of events! If, in fact, by the offer of violence, someone is induced to carry out a different course of conduct, then that is simply extortion. If the argument being advanced is that people who are being threatened are more likely to have recourse to the commission than to the police, then I invite the House to consider what protection the commission is able to afford, day and night, that the police cannot. I consider Part VI quite misconceived. We support this first step into considering how Parliament can protect human rights. Mr LATTER (Marlborough): I look forward to the verbal fights and debates with members of the Opposition on the points raised by the member for Mangere, but this is not the time to debate the clauses of the Bill, lavatories, privacy, or industrial relations. We still have a second reading debate and the Committee stage. The ground has been well covered а by the chairman of the committee, by the Minister of Justice, and by the member for Henderson. I simply want to content myself with one or two private observations. I make them on purpose because I know that many people of whichever party have wondered what this legislation is about and, to use their own expression, how they can wear it. It is not my type of legislation. The expression “trendy lefties” is used a lot, as is the expression “trendy lawyers”, particularly by members on this side of the House. I am neither. I suppose I am a stodgy righty, and this is the last type of legislation I would have expected to find myself supporting or working for. It was with some surprise that I found myself on the select committee. Probably a very clever person put me there for exactly that reason, so that the committee could have a stodgy righty among the trendy lefties. In looking at the legislation I consider first that it is inevitable, second that such legislation is world wide, and third, we cannot stand back in New Zealand and not move towards this legislation. That is right against my own point of view, because I should like to see a declaration of human rights hanging on the wall of every office and in every employer's and employees' work room, in the hope that New Zealanders would say, “This is the way we mean to go, and let us keep to that”. But we are not going that way, and we cannot avoid this type of legislation. Therefore, I went on the select committee with three aims: first, to be consistent and to make sure that the legislation we brought back was consistent; second, to make sure it was workable; and, third, to make sure it was acceptable to New Zealanders, whichever party they support. I belleve that after 33 meetings and 671 hours of hard work, with 127 submissions studied by the committee even if they were not all heard, and after 22 hours of deliberation, it can be said that the special select committee tried extremely hard. It certainly listened to people and certainly cannot be accused of not having heard submissions from all over New Zealand. I thank the chairman, who did a magnificent job, and also thank the advisers and the committee clerk. The member for Henderson, quite lightly and facetiously, wondered if gratitude would be shown for the contribution made by Opposition members on the committee. I express my gratitude now. I am sure that while I am in the House I will clash often with the member for New Lynn, but the contribution he made was of a very high, consistent, and intensive nature. I also believe the contributions made by the member for Henderson and the member for Mangere were essential, as were the contributions made by the lawyers on this side. It was a very happy committee. Many submissions were made asking the committee to widen the provisions of the Bill so that there would be no discrimination on the grounds of age, mental or physical handicap, or sexual orientation. I believe discrimination on sexual grounds does occur, but should not be introduced into this legislation. I am satisfied that the Bill reported back is in a workable form. As we look at the future, we should also look at this legislation. It revolves around the ability of the commission and the ability of the tribunal, and particularly the panel from which they are selected and I wish the Minister of Justice well on this aspect-and, most important, the interest of Parliament. Reports should not be laid on the table and regarded as just another report, but should be looked at and studied in regard to trends, and what the commission is saying. Part V, on privacy, comes in at this point, because Part V allows the commission to study and recommend. The form in which the Bill goes out to the public is a matter for Parliament, but having served on the special select committee I believe it has been given the study it deserves; and in these days of accusations of “closed government”-a statement I do not have much time for - the committee has heard the public, has listened to what was said, has deliberated, and has brought back a good piece of legislation. Mrs BATCHELOR (Avon): When I was appointed a member of the committee to look at the Bill, I was delighted to think that I would have the opportunity to have a say on what I considered to be important legislation. I am sorry to say that I do not feel that same excitement now, and I am sorry that the committee did not achieve more. I do not mean to imply any criticism of any member of the committee, because everybody worked well, the committee was extremely well chaired, and everyone did his best to produce forwardlooking legislation. However, we somehow got bogged down, either in legalities or on points on which we could not agree. The member for Henderson made a good point when he suggested that the Bill is not well named. I do not believe it is really a human rights Bill, because it excludes too many groups and shows quite clearly that there is a need for separate legislation covering the rights of the child, the handicapped, and the mentally retarded. None of those is mentioned in the Bill, and, therefore, it would seem to fail. With this in mind, it would seem that the name of the Bill should be changed more in line with the areas with which it is concerned. I agreed entirely with the principles behind the original Bill, but I am disappointed with the way it has been reported back. If one particular group is left open to discrimination or victimisation then the Bill has not lived up to its expectations. To leave out a group because we do not approve of its life style makes the Bill suspect, and a vehicle for intolerance rather than a statement of human rights. People living in de facto relationships have been excluded, which would seem to indicate that such people have no claim under the Bill. It is not my intention at this stage to go through the various clauses of the Bill, although there are some clauses about which I do not know whether to be amused or annoyed. I refer particularly to the clause that spells out occupations such as carpenter, engineer, telephonist, seaman, or typist. One can envisage a female carpenter or engineer, or a male typist or telephonist. I cannot understand the necessity for including the word “seaman”, because, if a woman chooses the sea as a career, will she be known as a seaman? The word " person" does not seem to be acceptable, but it is equally unacceptable to write into a human rights document the term “seaman” or any other term that denotes so obviously one's sex. This appears to negate the principle of treatment according to ability rather than sex - which is what I thought the Bill was all about. Again I do not know whether to be amused or annoyed at the amount of time spent by the committee on discussing the clause that could be seen as barring such organisations as women's bowling clubs or men's cricket teams. The committee seemed to be more concerned about the continuation of such groups than the fact that women have not been allowed to compete in horse racing, not because of any lack of ability, but because of personal prejudice on the part of some policy makers. I cannot help feeling that we have failed to get our priorities right, and until we do the whole question of human rights will remain static. Part VI refers to trade unions, a subject that deserves longer than the 10 minutes allowed on the reporting back. More time is needed to explain fully the reasons this clause was not accepted by some committee members. The member for Henderson said that intolerance could not be legislated out of people, but surely we must try to take action against blind intolerance. Parliament has a responsibility to take whatever action is necessary to improve the lot of minority groups who depend on us to legislate fairly, and who expect us to recognise that not all life styles are the same. Many parts of the Bill are a step forward and clarify discrimination against women in employment. If the Bill concentrated on this issue alone it would be good legislation, and perhaps it would have been better to introduce separate legislation to cover the other matters of concern. It is obvious that other legislation is needed to cover the people not covered in the Human Rights Commission Bill. I agree with the member for Mangere that the Bill is a cautious step, and I congratulate the Government on it. I support the legislation on those grounds. I shall elaborate more fully during further stages of the Bill. Mr HARRISON (Hawke's Bay): I thank members of the committee for taking part in the debate. It has been very interesting, and I should like to comment on one or two matters. The member for Henderson drew the attention of the House to the new drafting technique, and he gave the example in clause 14 whereby the process is used to show clearly what is not very easy to explain in the language of the law. It is pertinent to remind ourselves of the great difficulty that the committee had in translating the finer points of its thoughts into legal language, even with the aid of the very competent Parliamentary Counsel, Mr Walter Iles. Reference has been made to the Justice Department, Mrs Lowe, Margaret Nixon, and Beth Bowden from the Clerk's office. Many women's organisations made submissions to the committee, and I hope that when the time comes to appoint the commission and the tribunal the Minister of Justice will give due regard to including women on those two bodies. Several speakers made reference to the less fortunate people in our society, against whom there often has been, and probably will continue to be for some time, some form of discrimination - the intellectually handicapped, the physically handicapped, children, and the aged. We all deplore discrimination against these people on any ground, whether in employment, accommodation, or just ordinary life. The committee considered very carefully whether these groups should have been added to the list of people against whom discrimination will no longer be permitted by law, but it decided that the list was long enough as it was, and that it was better to proceed slowly and thoroughly, rather than to overburden the commission initially with more than it was able to cope with. The member for Avon gave her reaction to much of the detail of the Bill. When first looking at the Bill one sees “human rights”, and we all know what they are, but when one starts analysing human rights it is not easy to put the definition down in a few words. The United Nations tried to do that several years ago, and I think there have been two conventions since then when the original concept of human rights has been substantially amended. At one stage it was suggested that the United Nations declaration should be included as a schedule to the Bill, but the original declaration would have been inappropriate because it has been amended, and the conventions would take many pages of presumably legal jargon, which not many people would understand. It is simple to say that one should not discriminate against a person because of his race, ethnic origin, or colour, and to say that that is dealt with under the Race Relations Act. It is also simple to say that one should not discriminate against a person because of his or her religion, or religious or ethical belief, or sex or marital status, and that we are all equal and should be treated accordingly. However, we then come to the fine print and recognise that we quite happily accept differences in some areas. Earlier I mentioned the ladies golf club. Perhaps I should now mention the men's hurdles. They are quite legitimate exercises performed at the Olympic Games, the Commonwealth Games, and on various sports fields. Much of the time of the committee was devoted, necessarily, to drawing the line between what was a reasonable differentiation between people, and what was unreasonable discrimination. The committee had to define the fine line between protecting the rights of people and their being able to behave differently, and at the same time to protect people from unreasonable, unreasoning discrimination. Therein lay the committee's difficulties. What we have seen in the Bill may be expressed in the words of Isaiah: “The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock, and the dust shall be the serpent's meat; they shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.” I do not know whether we will reach as far as that, because that is the idea of Utopia, if not Eden. Hon. Dr A. M. Finlay: I assure the member I will not eat straw. Mr HARRISON: I am sure the House Committee will see that the member for Henderson does not have to eat straw unless he wishes to. Motion agreed to.

IRN: 2073
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_personal_explanation_warren_freer_20_june_1980.html
TITLE: Personal Explanation - Warren Freer (20 June 1980)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 20 June 1980
YEAR: 1980
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 20 June 1980, New Zealand Parliament. Hon. W. W. FREER (Mt Albert): With the leave of the House, I want to make a personal explanation. In 1979, after discussions with representatives of the Homosexual Law Reform Society and other people of responsibility and integrity, I agreed to introduce into Parliament a Bill designed to adapt the law relating to sexual acts between consenting males by establishing general principles similar to those accepted in England more than 10 years ago. I was assured privately of strong support, which led me to believe that the Bill would command a majority in Parliament, though undoubtedly the consciences of some members would have required them to vote against it. At that time I encountered opposition from a surprising quarter: radical groups who were bitterly critical of the existing provisions of the Crimes Act, but were not content merely to amend them. Their objective was to remove from the law all differences between males and females in respect of the constraints it places on sexual acts. This created a backlash that worked against my proposals for reform, and I decided not to proceed. Further talks this year with a number of members of the House encouraged me to try again, and I privately circulated to them, and to some others, a draft of a Bill similar to my 1979 proposal, but with some age difference. The object of this was to solicit comment and stimulate discussion, and, as before, I received much support and several helpful suggestions. Unfortunately, the draft appears to have come into the hands of the “all or nothing” groups who wantonly torpedoed my last attempt. This time they have gone further, and I find that a paper bearing my name and purporting to be a copy of the draft Bill, which many people knew I was preparing, has been distributed to members of Parliament and probably to an unknown number of others. In this forged document someone has altered the ages applying in certain sections of the Bill, and it is clearly intended to confuse and anger members and others. This clear and serious breach of parliamentary privilege has misled many members as to my intentions, and generated a hostility to my true purpose that, although totally unwarranted, is again calculated to kill the Bill. I have chosen the word carefully as I believe it is the calculated intention of those who have, in effect, appended my name to a forged document to brook no reform of this area of the law; rather they are dedicated to its abolition. Therefore, I tell the House that I have no intention of proceeding with the Bill, and apologise to members for any embarrassment or concern that may have resulted from the actions of persons outside the House. It is not my intention to press a privilege charge against those responsible for this forgery. Rt. Hon. R. D. MULDOON (Prime Minister): With the leave of the House, I want to comment briefly on the member's statement. The matter disclosed is a serious one, affecting the privileges of the House. I urge the member for Mt Albert, if he has any evidence as to who is responsible, to reconsider his decision not to press a charge of breach of privilege.

IRN: 1263
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_maryan_street_maiden_speech.html
TITLE: Maryan Street - Maiden Speech (16 November 2005)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 16 November 2005
YEAR: 2005
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 16 November 2005, New Zealand Parliament, volume 628, p. 187. MARYAN STREET (Labour): Te Rangatira o tenei Whare tena koe! Nga mema nei o tenei Paremata, tena koutou. E nga iwi katoa, tena koutou, tena koutou, kia ora koutou katoa. [Greetings to you Madam Speaker. Greetings as well to members of this Parliament. And to everyone else, greetings, greetings, and greetings to you all.] It is a privilege to stand and present my inaugural speech to this forty-eighth New Zealand Parliament. I begin by offering my congratulations to you, Madam Speaker, on your election to your position as Speaker of this House. I know that your training while chairing unruly annual conferences of the Labour Party in difficult times has stood you in fine stead for this position. I look forward to your continued management of this Chamber with the fairness, competence, and style with which I am so familiar from your previous role as president of the Labour Party. I wish also to recognise the Governor-General and the dignity, propriety, and calm that she brings to that office. I acknowledge the Speech from the Throne, and I celebrate the outline of this Labour-led Government’s intentions for its next historic term of office. I stood in the last election in the constituency of Taranaki - King Country - that well-known bastion of Labour votes! I pay a tribute here to my National Party opponent, the sitting member for Taranaki - King Country, Shane Ardern. Although knowing I was never going to be a huge threat to his tenure in that seat, he engaged in the campaign with respect and decorum, knowing that the process we were engaged in was bigger than both of us. I appreciated his consistent courtesy and his firm commitment to playing the ball, not the player. My congratulations go to him on his success in the election result, and my thanks go to the members of my campaign team, especially Andrew, Lesley, Shane, and Ingrid for all their support. My political awakenings derive from that area. Two significant events in my teenage years impacted upon me permanently and fixed my political direction forever. The first was the Viet Nam War. My very first political action was to participate in a public march against the war organised by a well-known Quaker couple in my home town of New Plymouth in 1969. The second event occurred over a longer period of time, but is set in my memory as a singular event. It was learning about Queen Elizabeth I from my extraordinary English and history teacher at New Plymouth Girls High School, Ida Gaskin. Apart from being a Shakespearian Mastermind twice, and the most outstanding of English teachers, Ida had the ability to bring history alive. In that seventh-form year when she asked me in class whether I thought I was a Whig or a Tory, she made me realise that knowledge was never neutral. Knowledge requires a response; one cannot know something and not be altered by it. In case members were wondering, I answered that I thought I was a Whig. Ida did not let on that she thought that that was the right answer. My Presbyterian upbringing in New Plymouth left me with an enduring legacy, as well - a burning passion for social justice. That fundamental sense of fairness and equal treatment, which we pride ourselves on having as a national characteristic, drove me through all my previous working lives as a young secondary school teacher, a trade unionist, an academic, and an industrial relations practitioner. It is that continuing desire to see social justice manifest in New Zealand, through its human rights, its economic structures, its equal opportunities for all regardless of accidents of birth, and its legal system, that has driven me to this place. My most recent working life has been in health, housing, and Treaty settlements, and, with apologies to St Paul, the greatest of these is Treaty settlements. Each of these areas is shot through with issues of social justice. I enter this Parliament as a list MP; I am proud and honoured to do so. List MPs in particular represent the change to our democratic processes that was ushered in by the electoral referendum of 1993. I supported MMP because I considered then, as I do now, that it had a better chance of delivering a fairer and more representative Parliament and decision-making structure than the previous first-past-the-post system. Democratic participation has long been a subject of immense interest and passion for me. My never-to-be-finished doctoral thesis was about participation in the workplace and the resulting preparation of workers for full participation as citizens. The basic idea was that if one educates a worker in the ways of participation in workplace decision-making, one educates a citizen for participation in the wider polity. I take this opportunity to dwell on the nature of democracy, because if it is not done in this place of all places, democracy will be at risk everywhere. At the core of democracy are human rights, which have, at least in our country, become inalienable. These are: the right to participate in elections - extended, uniquely, to women in New Zealand before any other self-governing nation in the world - the right to freedom of expression, the right to be treated equally before the law, and the right of the media to operate without interference and political coercion. These are fundamental aspects of democracy that are by no means experienced universally. They are rights and also privileges for which wars have been fought and lives have been lost, and the fight continues. Just as we went to our polls in our free democratic elections in September of this year, the former president of the Czech Republic Vaclav Havel and the Archbishop Emeritus of Cape Town Desmond Tutu were releasing their report to the UN Security Council entitled: Threat to the Peace: A Call for the UN Security Council to Act in Burma. One of my political heroes isAung San SuuKyi, the leader of the democratic movement in Burma, and “the world’s only imprisoned Nobel Peace Prize laureate”, in the words of the report. She has consistently kept the flame of democracy alive, through the National League for Democracy, against extraordinary opposition. Having won the elections resoundingly in 1990 with 80 percent of the seats in Parliament, the National League for Democracy was never allowed to take up office, and Aung San SuuKyi has remained under house arrest in Burma since 1990, with occasional periods of release. Burma needs the international community’s attention and support if it is to become a free, independent, and productive nation. Burma is the new South Africa. There are other just as significant yardsticks of a democratic society. One is the existence of strong trade unions, independent of employer or political patronage, and free to affiliate with political allies or not, as they see fit. Another is the existence of political parties, without which political organisation and expression are unfocused and disparate at best, and chaotic at worst. Some might consider that unfocused political chaos happens anyway, but I am sure from my own experience as the president of the Labour Party, that having political parties that come from strong philosophical and political traditions, such as the Labour Party does, provides citizens with something to vote for, or against, as they choose. Having such an organised expression of political commitment enhances the political process and allows citizens to participate intelligently and meaningfully in it. Another yardstick of democratic society is its treatment of minorities. This is not a new thought; it is a truism. But in recent times it has taken on a new relevance in New Zealand. The shabby, slovenly thinking behind the detractors of what is pejoratively termed “political correctness” must be seen for the crass political opportunism that it is. Pushing people to the margins of our society and then despising them for being there - purportedly in the interests of the great, ill-defined “mainstream” - serves our democracy badly. All New Zealanders would be much better served if mainstream society was seen for what it is: a loose conglomeration of varying interests, all seeking to move forward peacefully and profitably within the laws of the land, to improve their lot and the lot of others. The true measure of the democratic State, however, is not in its treatment of the majority, but in the respect, rights, and opportunities it affords its minorities. If any are barred from opportunities by virtue of their gender, colour, race, religious tradition, sexuality, disability, trade union affiliation, or political beliefs, then we are not a true democracy. If any are allowed to be excluded or despised by virtue of any of the characteristics I have just listed, then our democracy is less than it should be. This is not about a Government telling people what to think. It is not about saying which jokes are permissible and which are not. This is about basic respect for others who may be different in some identifiable respect but who seek the same law-abiding, improving quality of life in this country that most people seek. A strong, self-confident democracy is one that recognises, embraces, and values diversity. Only a cringing, unassertive democracy retains its power by excluding others and stripping them of their place in it. As a lesbian, I have often been the subject of other people’s efforts to push me to the margins, to erode my legitimacy as a citizen, and to belittle my efforts and achievements. I have never accepted marginalisation; it is a construct of others who wish me to be marginalised. It is not where I see myself or the many others like me. But it has always required courage, and I have not come into this House to be less than brave about the human rights of those whom some would seek to marginalise. I seek an inclusive, just, and tolerant society as one that is more likely to be peaceful, productive, and safe for our children to grow up in. A pluralist society is stable because of its differences, not despite them. It is the very differences between people, working together peacefully and with respect for each other, that allow a society to remain strong and cohesive. The hallmarks of a society that excludes and marginalises people for whatever reason are instability, disharmony, intolerance, and violence - and that is not the society I seek for our children. Those who would dismiss these sentiments as political correctness need to rethink their reasons for doing so, because their aim can only be to create a fragmented, divisive, and hateful society. The reason for doing that escapes me completely. I want every child to have the opportunity to be what they can most fully be. Sometimes that means that we have to apply resources inequitably in order to bring young people up to the same starting line. I do not resile from that. I do not call it preferential treatment, and I do not call it political correctness. I call it fairness or social justice. I want women and children to be able to live, move, work, and play safely in our communities. I do not resile from that. I do not call it feminist extremism, and I do not call it political correctness. I call it fairness or social justice. I want a growing productive economy that can lift the living standards of all people in New Zealand so that there is no child in desperate need, no substandard housing, and no illnesses of poverty. That is social justice, too. Finally, I want to pay a few personal tributes. First, I acknowledge the presence in this Parliament of my predecessors in the Labour Party presidency: the Hon Jim Anderton, yourself, Madam Speaker, and the Hon Ruth Dyson. I have learnt a great deal from each of these people and celebrate all their past and ongoing contributions to making this country a fairer and more compassionate place. I hope I can maintain that tradition worthily. I also pay a tribute to Helen Duncan whose position on the Labour Party list I took. I hope I will carry on the work she did and the values she reflected in this place. She has been a battler with me on common issues for a very long time. I pay tribute to her for her work for women, for workers, and for trade unionists. To my daughter, who is a case study on her own for lowering the voting age to 14, I say thank you for supporting me in being here today. I fail if I do not help Aotearoa New Zealand to become a better place for you to live in. It is a privilege to be here. My fervent hope is that I use whatever time I have here usefully to further social justice for all, for which the Labour Party stands. Kia ora koutou katoa.

IRN: 1262
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_human_rights_gender_identity_amendment_bill_23_august_2006.html
TITLE: Human Rights (Gender Identity) Amendment Bill (2004)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 23 August 2004
YEAR: 2004
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 23 August 2004, New Zealand Parliament, volume 633, pp. 4794-4795. GEORGINA BEYER (Labour): In October 2004 the Human Rights (Gender Identity) Amendment Bill, was introduced to the House - a member’s bill in my name. I can inform the House that as of this morning I discharged that bill and have withdrawn it. I have done so, being very confident in the progress made towards addressing the issues that that bill raised and brought forward for consideration. They were to include gender identity within our human rights legislation, to put beyond doubt that there were no grounds for discrimination, and, indeed, to prohibit discrimination against those with issues around gender identity. That group would have included transsexuals, transvestites, cross-dressers, intersex people, and any others who felt they had a gender identity issue. I am pleased to report that upon his own initiative on behalf of the Government, the Attorney-General, the Hon Dr Michael Cullen, with support from the Prime Minister, sought a clarification from the Solicitor-General. He has today provided me with a Crown Law opinion that concludes that the current New Zealand Human Rights Act, and particularly section 21 of that Act, would be inclusive of people who may have issues around gender identity, particularly the specific groups I mentioned before. They would be protected under the proviso that there cannot be discrimination on the grounds of sex or sexual orientation. This clarity will put to rest that issue for some, including the decision makers in our courts, etc. who may - and we have not had case law to date on this in New Zealand - have to consider a matter around gender identity. This opinion would give an indication and a direction on which they may base a judgment. Discrimination still exists for transsexuals and other such people with gender identity issues in New Zealand. That was the purpose of having clarity brought about by the introduction of my bill. For example, those issues exist within housing and employment situations, and I can certainly attest, as a member of Parliament, to having received delegations of people who have pointed out that young children who are transsexuals have encountered an awful lot of problems within their schools and within their communities, because of the way they have chosen to live their lives. That is discrimination, and it is intolerable in this day and age. I am glad this clarity has been brought to the attention of Parliament and of those in New Zealand who are interested in the subject matter. This effort has not been without work from numerous people, particularly organisations outside of Parliament. I can think of an organisation called Agender that deserves some credit, and of other transgender organisations that have watched keenly the progress of the bill for clarity around the situation. I would like particularly to thank Michael Wilson, who assisted in drafting the original bill. I would also like to thank colleagues within the Labour caucus and many other members in the House who, in the last Parliament and in this current Parliament, expressed some support for the intention of my bill. But there was not enough support within the last Parliament or this Parliament for me to feel confident that the bill would have succeeded had it gone to a first reading; indeed, I think quite the contrary would have occurred. I guess quite venal debate might have occurred, like that after the prostitution reform and civil union legislation was passed. The debates that interested this House and the nation at that time brought up some rather distasteful references to things we had long left in the past. I just add also that internationally - I have just returned from a conference in Montreal, and the United Nations Human Rights Commissioner pointed out in her keynote address to that high-level conference that gender identity is a vexed issue that still needs to be addressed by many jurisdictions around the world - those matters are being addressed by other jurisdictions. It is pleasing to find, within our own human rights legislation, that this Crown Law opinion will, I hope, put beyond doubt any question in respect of the matter of gender identity protection for the transgender community, and specifically transsexuals, transvestites, cross-dressers, and the intersex people. The whole transgender community can feel that clarity has now been gained, and that there is something that they can rest on as far as protection is concerned. I seek the leave of the House to table, for members’ information, a Crown Law opinion dated 2 August from the Solicitor-General, which concludes that transgender people are protected under the existing human rights legislation of New Zealand. Document, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.

IRN: 1257
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_report_of_the_privileges_committee_carmen_rupe_25_july_1975.html
TITLE: Report of the Privileges Committee - Carmen Rupe (25 July 1975)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 25 July 1975
YEAR: 1975
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 25 July 1975, New Zealand Parliament. Hon. Dr A. M. FINLAY (Minister of Justice) - The Privileges Committee has carefully considered the matter of privilege raised in the House on 21 May relating to the remarks made in a television interview on 1 May by the nightclub owner named Tione Rupe, but known as Carmen, and, to avoid confusion, herein designated simply as “A”. The committee now has the honour to report as follows: (1) The committee studied a transcript of the television interview, viewed a videotape replay, and also heard the master tape of the interview. (2) The committee examined “A” and heard submissions from counsel. It also examined Mr Spencer Jolly, the employee of TV-1 who conducted the interview. Mr Jolly was accompanied by his counsel. (3) The committee considers that the statements made by “A”, to the effect that some members of Parliament were involved in the practice of homosexuality and in bisexuality, tended to lessen the esteem in which Parliament is held, and that, accordingly, a breach of privilege was established. (4) “A” stated that there was no basis or truth in this statement, and that “A.” had no knowledge of or belief in the truth of the allegation that a member or members of Parliament were involved in such behaviour. Before the committee “A” unreservedly apologised for and regretted having made the statements. (5) It was claimed that, taken unaware by leading questions on sexual deviation which arose out of publicity attaching to a forthcoming publication, “A” did not give considered answers. “A” stated that there was practically no prior consultation with Mr Jolly as to the scope of the interview, and further claimed that very substantial editing of the interview gave undue prominence to references to politicians and their sexual behaviour. We reject those claims. They are inconsistent not only with Mr Jolly's evidence but with the actual words as recorded on the master tape. Indeed, that goes further and confirms that “A” volunteered all those allegations and more, including reference to a call girl service and other unsavoury enterprises. No ground was advanced for implicating any member of Parliament in these. (6) Notwithstanding what we have said in the preceding paragraph, the committee feels there is some substance to the claim that “A” was induced and encouraged into indiscretions by leading questions put by the interviewer. Questioned on this point, Mr Jolly said he did not think he had led “A” into the answers given, except to the extent that prompting was necessary, in accordance with normal interviewing techniques, to overcome nervousness. When the reply to the question on homosexuality was not expanded, he asked about the link with bisexuality to sustain the interview. He claims that this topic was discussed beforehand, and we accept his evidence on this point. We think he formed an opinion, as a result of this, that the offender could be egged on to make disclosures that would be “sensational”, but not really believed in. The committee is of the opinion that the loaded nature of Mr Jolly's questions was definitely a factor in causing a breach of privilege, and although he was only appearing as a witness the committee considers that some expression of contrition for his part in the matter would have been appropriate. (7) Reference to the master tape establishes that the televised version occupied only approximately 5% minutes of the original 20-minute film. However, the committee is satisfied that there was no material cutting or rearranging of the order of questions, and that the edited version was a reasonably fair summary of the interview. (8) “A” has proffered the attached written apology. To some extent it goes beyond the matters really in issue and is undeniably self-serving in other respects. We repeat that while we do not absolve Mr Jolly from blame, we believe the main responsibility for this baseless and unsavoury incident lies upon “A”, and we do not accept the explanations and excuses contained in the letter. However, it does include an unqualified apology, coupled with due contrition, and the committee recommends that, apart from expressing its strong disapproval of the incident and reprimanding “A” accordingly, the House take no further action. I move, That the report do lie upon the table and be adopted and agreed to. Little more, I feel, need be said about this tasteless and contrived affair, but I would like to take the opportunity of saying one or two things about parliamentary privilege generally. In connection with another such case the Leader of the Opposition charged me with being jury, judge, and prosecutor, and to the extent that there is substance in this it applies with even more force to his role in the present proceedings. He initiated them by way of complaint before this House, sat as a member of the committee, and probed the witnesses more searchingly than any other member of it. If his absence from Wellington prevented him from being present when judgment was sealed, as it were, he concurred in its general terms. Such a state of affairs, however, is inherent in the whole notion of parliamentary privilege, and people are beginning to question its propriety. They wonder, too, at the great length to which we can and do go to protect ourselves from criticism by others when day by day we subject each other to streams of verbal invective which is restrained only by the curious convention that forbids us to use words that could bring a blush to the cheeks of those attending a mixed kindergarten. No doubt there is historical justification for the prevailing rules, but more and more people are questioning whether we should be able to define for ourselves what constitutes contempt of Parliament - or, rather, to refrain from defining it, leaving the term vague and doubtful in its meaning - put an alleged offender on trial before ourselves without any presumption of innocence, and leave him liable to an open-ended range of penalties with no right of appeal. This situation offends against almost every canon of civil law, and we would do well to review it. At the same time, it is timely to mention the difficulties, of providing appropriate protection for a group of people within the confines of the ordinary law. If an individual's reputation is assailed he has an appropriate remedy in libel. If the victim of the attack is more than one, problems arise. To say that a legal firm consisting of three or four partners was crooked would doubtless give each partner a right of action. To say that a jury was bribed would probably give to each of its members the same protection. On the other hand, one may proclaim with impunity that all bankers are usurers, or that all surgeons are butchers, as the thrust of the charge is not sufficiently directed against any one of them. Assuming that an allegation of sexual deviation is defamatory, it is very doubtful whether any one member of Parliament could have sued in respect of the words used in the television programme with which we are concerned. Even to attempt to do so would seem foolhardy, inviting the comment that where there is smoke there is fire. There is a very real need for the law to look at its capacity to deal with what are called group actions, and I was interested to find that the topic was vigorously debated at a recent law convention I attended in Australia. Many of these involve environmental situations, but the need goes beyond this, and it is only gradually that the law is accommodating itself to the realisation that the right of audience before the courts should not be confined to those who allege that they themselves or their own property may be jeopardised by the issue they bring before the courts. Hon. R. D. MULDOON (Leader of the Opposition) - We had arranged between the Whips that there would be only one speaker from each side in this debate, but I certainly did not expect the Minister of Justice to speak in the way he did, and so I have immediately told our Whips that that arrangement is off, and we will have a little chat about this matter. I certainly did not expect the Minister to launch into a personal attack relating to an earlier case, and then to carry on with the totally unjustified allegation that I was leading the band on this matter when in fact I was not even present when the verdict, if one can call it that - drafted again, I suspect, by the Minister of Justice, as was the verdict in the previous trial, if one can call it that - was agreed to by Government members, agreed to by my colleague on the committee, and presented to me as the last member - I do not blame anyone for that; I just was not here - and agreed to by me. You will recall, Mr Speaker, that the origin of this matter was when you said that, after consultation with the Prime Minister, you felt there was no case to answer - a procedure which is unorthodox, to put it in the mildest possible terms. You were good enough to reverse that decision upon reflection, and it is perfectly obvious, having now seen the evidence, and indeed having seen the remainder of the television tape which even TV-1 was not prepared to telecast - and we know what its standards of taste are at times - that there was indeed a case to answer. I think that the difference between the verdict in this case and the verdict in the earlier case this week will not go unremarked by the public. Again we have seen the Minister of Justice, with that peculiar combination of self-criticism and self-justification which he adopts as an approach on occasions such as this, say, “Really, we are all at fault, and really we all should do very much better; but really I’ll stick my knife into the Leader of the Opposition at the same time”, in a mealy-mouthed manner. The Minister of Justice is a member of this House for whom I used to have some regard. I am bound to say that in the course of this session that regard has totally disappeared. By comparison with his predecessors in my time in the House, he has turned out to be a petty, party politician of the worst type, using his office, with all the dignity it commands, and his parliamentary majority, to indulge in small party campaigning of a type that caused my predecessor as leader of this party, Sir John Marshall, some years ago to refer to him very aptly as a grubby little man; and he is back in the same grubby little manner this year as Minister of Justice. Mr SPEAKER - Order! The honourable member was quoting somebody else for a start, but he then went on to use the words as his own. I must ask him to withdraw his own reference. Hon. R. D. MULDOON–It has been ruled in order. Mr SPEAKER - No. Hon. R. D. MULDOON. - It was ruled to be in order when it was used by Sir John Marshall some years ago, and you were then a member of the House. Mr SPEAKER - I have ruled it out of order myself. I do not think it is a term we should use. I do not object to the member using it as a quotation of somebody else. Hon. R. D. MULDOON–If that is your ruling, then naturally I withdraw. The public will make its own decision on this matter and on the Minister of Justice. The case should have gone to the Privileges Committee, and there is not a member of the House today who does not know that. The case has been dealt with in the way these things normally are dealt with, and I think will in future be dealt with, and I put no store whatever in the meanderings of the Minister of Justice on the question of privilege and the like. If he were a Minister whose views on these matters commanded some respect, it would be different, but the political activities of this Minister in the last few months have ensured that in this kind of affair, in which we would normally look to the Minister of Justice for guidance, he commands no respect whatsoever in this House. It is a pity that the Leader of the House cannot make some observations on this matter. I guess he is talking to a Lions Club somewhere. It is a pity he cannot give a lead, but these days we do not expect him to give too much of a lead. I guess his deputy will match the occasion. Hon. R. J. Tizard - I certainly will. Hon. R. D. MULDOON. - Yes, I thought he would. I will just take this opportunity of telling the Minister of Justice that no one on this side of the House appreciates his party politicking in the role he has been given by his Prime Minister, a role that should be treated in a much more responsible manner. Mr O’FLYNN (Kapiti) - One is obliged to comment on that remarkable outburst and, in particular, the remark about the Leader of the House possibly being away addressing a Lions Club, coming as it did from the itinerant pedlar of politics to Rotary Clubs, Lions Clubs, and any organisations he can find anywhere in the country. His feeble attack on the well qualified Minister of Justice, and on the sensible and dignified remarks the Minister made about parliamentary privilege, is a measure of the man. We are faced with a question that calls for some serious and thoughtful consideration, and twice this week such a question has received it from one of the best qualified Ministers the House has had. The reception given to those comments has been the reverse of thoughtful; it has been frivolous and political. The questions to which the Minister directed attention are exercising the public mind. The Minister has put forward in a non-partisan and dignified manner a number of matters that call for serious consideration. I referred to them myself in the earlier debate this week, and I do not propose to repeat what was then said other than to say I think we should take an early opportunity in the next Parliament to set up a committee to review those matters in a sensible way. I want to point to the contrast between the present case and the previous case dealt with this week, since contrasts have already been made. It is all very well to say that there was a case to answer, but I suggest to the member who raised the matter and put it before the Privileges Committee that he would have been wiser to have exercised the kind of discretion that any ordinary police sergeant in the community exercises from time to time as to when one ought or ought not to prosecute. I should have thought that mature consideration would have persuaded the honourable gentleman and some of his more sensible colleagues that though there might have been a case, common sense, maturity, and balanced judgment would have suggested that it would better have been ignored. One of the ways to assert the dignity of an assembly such as this, just as it is one of the ways in which an individual with dignity can assert it, is to ignore insults of that character as simply being beneath notice. That is the attitude that the Prime Minister, and you yourself, Mr Speaker, had begun to take up, and I think it would have been a much better idea to have continued to adopt it throughout. I cannot sit down without drawing attention to the aftermath of the other case we had this week, which led the aggrieved person to describe the tribunal whose judgment we are reviewing this morning, as we did earlier in the week, as a “kangaroo court”. Mr SPEAKER - Order! I must ask the honourable gentleman to confine himself to the report now before the House. We must not discuss the report that has already been agreed to and adopted by this House. Mr O’FLYNN-Thank you for that direction. I merely observed earlier that we have already had, in the speech I am replying to, some contrast between the two. I content myself by saying that the measure of acceptance by the honourable gentleman of the processes of the House can be seen from the way in which he received them earlier in the week. Hon. B. E. TALBOYS (Deputy Leader of the Opposition) - I do not know what gets into the Minister of Justice, but for some reason best known to himself he seems incapable of simply reporting what happened in a committee. He must always grasp the opportunity to insinuate some personal vindictiveness which is not at all becoming to a Minister. He was determined to widen the debate, but before he did so he had to wrap himself in his judicial dignity. I hope that one day he will learn to stop it. I was a member of this committee. I have listened to what the member for Kapiti had to say, but I am sure every member of the committee would be in no doubt that there had been in fact a breach of privilege. It was an extraordinary committee on which to be. We had a witness setting out an argument, and then another witness telling a completely different story. “It happens every day with the member for Kapiti,” some member has just interjected. Well, that would not surprise me. All I can say is that I think that the decision that was made here was probably the only one that could be made, but it does stand in very strong contrast, as has already been observed, with the decision in another case. I say again to the Minister of Justice that he utters wise thoughts which, if they were taken on their own, and if he would allow people to consider them on their own, would be worth listening to. But he cannot do that. At every opportunity he seeks to insinuate his personal vindictiveness, and I think it is time he gave it up. Hon. R. J. TIZARD (Deputy Prime Minister) - As a member of this committee I think I should say something about the case itself first. Nobody would value the opinions of the person referred to as “A” in this instance, and therefore I ask, why was attention ever drawn to them? I do not place any value on these opinions myself, and after seeing both the televised film and the original from which the actual programme was made up, I would say that the best thing that could have happened to it was that it should have remained in the obscurity to which it had descended immediately after the programme had been screened. But no, for some reason known only to the Leader of the Opposition, the case was put into prominence, and therefore Parliament was required to consider it. I would have gone along with the earlier opinion expressed by the Prime Minister and the Speaker that the case was better dropped because nobody in his right mind could have taken it seriously. Air Commodore Gill - Parliament did. Hon. G. F. Gair - A point of order, Mr Speaker. The Deputy Prime Minister has just insulted every member of the House. The House, through its Privileges Committee, is asked to find “A” at fault in a breach of privilege. The Deputy Prime Minister has just explained, in his language anyway, that nobody in his right mind could have taken it seriously. I suggest that by taking that approach he himself is insulting the Privileges Committee and making a farce of this debate. Hon. R. J. TIZARD-Speaking to the point of order, I think we should draw attention to the wording of the committee's recommendation, which puts no value on the apology, but says it accepts it and lets it go at that. I suggest that my remarks are an accurate reflection of the committee's findings. Mr SPEAKER - It could be very easy to be left with the impression that Parliament had made a mistake in referring the matter to the Privileges Committee. I remind members that this matter was quite properly raised by a member. I was asked, as Speaker of the House, whether I considered that a case should go to the Privileges Committee. The matter having been represented to the House in that way, I agreed there was a case to be considered by the Privileges Committee. The case has been considered by the committee, and we should debate the matter in that way. Hon. R. J. TIZARD-I very strongly support what you have said, Mr Speaker. You were required to find that there was a prima facie case, not a proven case, and that is what you did. Hon. G. F. Gair - A point of order, Mr Speaker. You have not ruled on the point I raised that the Deputy Prime Minister said that members were out of their minds if they took a certain stance. Hon. R. J. TIZARD–I said no such thing. Hon. G. F. Gair - The Deputy Prime Minister did do so. He included everybody, and his reference could well include you Mr Speaker. Mr SPEAKER - I do not think anyone was in any doubt about what I said - that there was a case to go to the Privileges Committee. The matter did go before the Privileges Committee, and it is now being reported back in the proper way. It has gone through the proper channels, and I think most members understand the position. It is not a matter of what individual members of the House think. In my opinion there was a case. The Privileges Committee considered the case, and its judgment is in the report. The point of order is finished. Hon. R. J. TIZARD-I suggest that there was only one reason why the case was pressed by the Leader of the Opposition, and that was simply as a diversionary tactic when he himself was required to appear before the Privileges Committee. The only result of bringing this case forward has been to lift a sordid incident from the obscurity into which it had already sunk. In brief reference to what has been said about my colleague the Minister of Justice, I would say that he has handled this case with dignity. The finding is not just his finding, but is a compromise between opinions expressed by members of the Privileges Committee, because the Leader of the Opposition was strongly of the opinion that there was a case to answer. I was equally strongly of the opinion that the incident was better pushed back into obscurity and forgotten. Clearly, then, the recommendation of the committee is, on balance, an attempt to equate what were clearly differing views in the committee. The Leader of the Opposition has felt it necessary in this instance not to refer to the decision, but to have a go at the Minister of Justice and then drag in the Leader of the House and refer to the fact that he is absent on public business. Those are the hit-and-run tactics we are used to from him. He only hits occasionally when he is here, and runs as soon as he has had a hit. The perverted politics he is preaching will not do him or the House any good if they are allowed to go without comment. I suggest that the decision be taken quietly and as soon as possible. That is the best way for the House to handle the incident. Hon. J. B. GORDON (Clutha) - The Deputy Prime Minister said that for some obscure reason we had decided to have two privilege cases before the House. May I remind him that the first of the two cases brought before the Privileges Committee was raised by the Senior Government Whip. The Deputy Prime Minister wants both cases to be buried in obscurity and not come before the House, and I accept that. The Senior Government Whip having made his move, the Leader of the Opposition then made his quite valid move. I find myself in some disagreement with the Deputy Prime Minister. I concede that I did not hear the evidence, but I did hear the detailed and deliberate report from the Minister of Justice this morning. He suggested that this case had some merit, and that the person “A” had been guilty. Certainly “A” might have been egged on, but I do not go along with the Deputy Prime Minister's suggestion that the matter should now be left in limbo, in obscurity. The Privileges Committee has proved that a smear was put on members of this House. We started this morning with a report from the Minister of Justice. I cannot technically quarrel with any of it, except the last finding. The Minister of Justice spoke with a determined dignity, with almost pedantic speech - and, might I respectfully suggest, deliberately so. Together with the Deputy Prime Minister, he pushed the matter of the reflection on the moral standards of members of this House back into what he called obscurity, and decided, as did other Government speakers, including a Queen's Counsel, that the Government's attitude did not rest on the cases. The Government shows no discretion. The word “discretion” used by the member for Kapiti merely proves a contrived attack to destroy one man. An agreement has been broken, and that is why I am now speaking. That is the situation the House unfortunately finds itself in. May I remind the House that this business was started by the Senior Government Whip, yet the member for Kapiti, a Queen's Counsel, talks of having a sense of discretion and common sense. I go along with that, but merely ask that learned gentleman where discretion should have started. Mr O'Flynn–With the Leader of the Opposition. Hon. J. B. GORDON. - The Minister of Justice has reported back what I think is a mild finding by the Privileges Committee. He said that the person “A” had been found guilty, and that in effect the apology was not accepted. But what do we find at the tail end? No further action, not even a censure. Hon. Dr A. M. Finlay - Yes, there is. Hon. J. B. GORDON–There was not even an “appropriate” censure. The Minister of Justice is now trying to qualify what he said earlier. He now claims there was an appropriate censure similar to that applied to the earlier case this week. I would have expected that at the very least the Minister, with his learning, would have told us the difference between “appropriate” censure and “censure”. Mr O'Flynn–A reprimand. Hon. J. B. GORDON–The learned member for Kapiti now wants another go. Mr O'Flynn–Be accurate; that's all. Hon. J. B. GORDON. - I will try to be. I have not had the legal training of the member for Kapiti, but his accuracy now should be better than it was earlier this week. There can be no question in anyone's mind this morning that we in this House have virtually been led up the garden path. The Minister of Justice himself said that the House had descended to the state of a mild kindergarten. If that is so, I, with him, regret it. I merely suggest that the manner in which the committee's finding was reported back - I cannot quarrel with the report of the committee itself - did the House and the Minister of Justice no credit, and did the Government much less credit. There was not an unbiased, unqualified, and factual reporting back on the single issue before the House - the conviction of a person referred to as “A” - but a political attack designed to destroy one man. Hon. A. J. FAULKNER (Minister of Labour) - I listened very carefully to the report from the Privileges Committee, and I cannot disagree in any way at all with the decision of that committee. Perhaps it would be useful if I read the decision again: “However, it does include an unqualified apology, coupled with due contrition, and the committee recommends that, apart from expressing its strong disapproval of the incident and reprimanding ‘A’ accordingly, the House take no further action.” I think that in these circumstances a reprimand from Parliament is a very strong decision to make. After all, the committee was dealing with someone who is not a member of Parliament. It seems to me that the decision is totally appropriate to the Circumstances. For centuries, ever since there have been Parliaments, people have taken what could be described in modern language as the mickey out of members of Parliament in vaudeville acts and so forth. It is noticeable, however, that people generally are very anxious to get a testimonial from members when they need some support in the community. I am disturbed that thoughtful suggestions made by the Minister of Justice on our procedure should be described as a contrived attack on one man. It should be remembered that an Opposition member of the committee voted for the recommendation, yet the Opposition now suggests that the decision was contrived, and that a reprimand is less of a penalty than has been recommended in other privilege cases. The Leader of the Opposition, who complained that everyone is making personal attacks on him, made one of the most bitter personal attacks on the Minister of Justice that I have ever heard in the House. For the life of me I cannot see how any remarks made by the Minister of Justice could have provoked such an attack. He simply outlined the circumstances and laid out clearly the evidence which led the committee to make its decisions. Simply because the Minister of Justice made a suggestion that Parliament should review its procedures when it is attacked as a group, the Leader of the Opposition made a bitter personal attack on him. It was totally unjustified, unless it is thought necessary to have an incident of this kind in Parliament every day to help bring the place into further disrepute. If that is part of a campaign I can understand the motivation, but there was no justification for that attack in the circumstances this morning. I very much support the suggestion for a review of our procedure on privileges. We do appear to go behind closed doors and hear evidence. If we can protect ourselves from ill-informed and vested-interest attacks on ourselves in an open way so that the public can be aware of the general standards of this Chamber, we will serve Parliament and not destroy it. We should be indebted to the Minister of Justice for his proposal for a review of the procedure. As I see it, we have no alternative but to uphold the unanimous view of the Privileges Committee in its recommendation. Hon. G. F. GAIR (North Shore) - l think the remarks of the Minister of Labour can be disposed of as pious nonsense. Surely one speaker from either side would have been sufficient in this debate if the real subject of the debate had been the only matter at issue. But the Minister of Justice himself, in reporting the finding of the committee to the House, opened this matter up into a much more serious affair, which calls into question the rights and position of another man in this House, and also raises the whole question of the privileges system. I want first to refer to the remarks made by the Deputy Prime Minister. He asked why attention had ever been drawn to this person “A”. I would ask him why the television programme was produced in the first place. Apparently somebody thought it of interest. He accused the Leader of the Opposition of being the only person who had taken this matter seriously. In that sense I submit he is insulting you, Mr Speaker, and every member of this House who saw fit to refer this matter to the Privileges Committee. I do not recall that the Deputy Prime Minister voiced a protest at that time. In saying the House is out of its mind in taking this matter seriously he cast a slur on all members, including himself. I remind the Deputy Prime Minister that in 1969 his own former leader, as Leader of the Opposition, moved in an almost identical situation that the House should refer a somewhat similar case to the Privileges Committee. You will recall that on that occasion the editor of the Evening Post was called before the committee to answer certain insinuations in a headline which had made the charge that four members of the House were probably homosexuals. This debate has gone off the rails because of the immaturity of the Minister of Justice, who cannot resist the temptation to pick up some mud and throw it when he sees an attractive target in the form of the Leader of the Opposition. I remind the House that this is not the first time the judgment of the Minister of Justice has been at fault. In this very Chamber he made a devastating attack upon a man who was found to be completely not guilty. That man was the former President of the National Party. Mr Meadowcroft. I recall also his diatribe against NAC and its purchase of Boeing 737s. His argument was later found to be considerably at fault. This is essentially a vendetta against the Leader of the Opposition, and people outside this House who are removed from the subjective atmosphere we are debating in this morning will see it as that. If there was no case to answer, why did the House send the matter to the Privileges Cornmittee and why did the committee make the report we are asked to approve this morning? Quite clearly, the Leader of the Opposition was justified in raising this matter, and I remind the House that he raised it in circumstances in which he personally was being attacked by the arrogant Labour majority through the voice of the Senior Government Whip. Twice this week we have had occasion to debate a report from the Privileges Committee. Twice this week the Minister of Justice has chosen to force the debate downwards and stir some of the sludge from the bottom. We should remind ourselves that this whole matter was raised by a charge made by the Senior Government Whip. The Leader of the Opposition was not the man who threw the first stone, and the first stone was not thrown inside this House. I should like to refer briefly to the observations on privilege made by the Minister of Justice. All procedures can from time to time be usefully reviewed, but the Minister of Justice is in error if he implies that the protection of privilege is not an essential part of the operation of Parliament. If it were not for the privilege that Parliaments for many generations have seen fit to allow themselves, the opportunity for the free, frank, and open debate that the Chamber should provide would be seriously impaired. Hon. Dr A. M. Finlay - That has nothing to do with contempt. Hon. G. F. GAIR-It has a great deal to do with why privilege should be preserved. It is inevitable that feelings in this House will at times be strongly aroused and strongly expressed. It is impossible to have a situation in which full-blooded men and women, arguing issues of moment on matters of great importance, will not have clashes, not only of opinions but also of personalities; but we have managed to convey the impression to the country in the last 12 months, since the present leadership of the House followed in the footsteps of the late Norman Kirk, that the House is run in a disorderly manner. I am perhaps not the best judge of that, but I can see that when the House operates in a leadership vacuum we are bound to have troubles that would not arise if real leadership were available. The stakes are high this year; the Government realises that its position is somewhat desperate. Mr SPEAKER - Order! I am afraid I will have to stop the honourable member. We must remind ourselves that we are dealing with the report of the Privileges Committee. It is true that charges and rebuttals have been made, but I hope the honourable member can come back to the committee's report. We are not really dealing with the leadership of the House and the election. Hon. G. F. GAIR-When this type of debate develops it is very appropriate to ask why, and to consider the consequences. Torrid debates like this may well continue this year when we have a Government that is fighting to retain the Treasury benches, and while we have a continued vacuum in the leadership of the House. I express deep concern at the way a debate, which should be a very elevated and very objective feature of the work of the House, has been converted by the attitude of the Minister of Justice into a subjective feeling of frustration and into an attack upon the Leader of the Opposition. There was a perfectly acceptable mutual agreement between both sides that one speaker from each side should dispose of this problem. Why did the Government permit its representative to take the debate right off the rails, using it as an attack upon a member who had properly brought this matter before the House and to the Privileges Committee? If this were not so, the Privileges Committee is wrong in its recommendation. The Deputy Prime Minister cannot have it both ways, though he always tries to do that. Whatever we in this House might think, the people following this debate will note with some concern the way the Minister of Justice has mishandled his assignment. Mr MAYSON (Hastings) - I am astonished that the House should even be discussing this case, and I am astonished for some of the reasons the member for North Shore has given. If we cannot stand the heat of very animated debate in this House and some of the bruises that will result, I do not believe we should stand for public office in the first place. I am sure that all members, and especially the member for North Shore, who has taken a few and given a few, will accept that that is the case. So why do we set ourselves apart from the community? When somebody outside gives us a blow and we feel the bruise, why do we take it upon ourselves to refer that person to a tribunal, the Privileges Committee? Why do we sit in judgment on that person in a way in which we never sit in judgment on ourselves? We have here a perfect case of the double standard - a standard for what parliamentarians may say about each other, and a standard of what people may say about parliamentarians. That is one of the reasons why our Standing Orders are not relevant to the needs of Parliament in modern society, and it is directly related to this case. The House will recall that when the Standing Orders Committee presented its report last year I said it had flirted with change and opted for security and the status quo. This week we have seen perfect evidence that that is so. The irony of it is that the man who was most vocal in opting for the status quo and refusing to alter the Standing Orders is the man who is saying by implication that the Standing Orders are unfair. That man is the Leader of the Opposition. One cannot avoid the fact that the mover of this motion, who sent “A” to the Privileges Committee, was the Leader of the Opposition, the man who saw no need for change in the Standing Orders. Obviously this was a diversionary tactic. Perhaps it was understandable, and perhaps the same tactic would have been employed by other members if they had been referred for judgment to the Privileges Committee. I am not condemning it; I am just stating it as a fact; but I think it did colour the judgment of the House. The House accepted that “A” should go to the committee only because it did not want to appear to be selective in passing judgment on a member of the House on another matter. I do not believe the House would have agreed to the motion to send “A” to the Privileges Committee had not the Leader of the Opposition also been required to attend before that committee. Here again we get back to this matter of two standards. We can abuse people outside from the protection of this Chamber, and we can abuse each other in this Chamber - we do it every day; I am as guilty as anybody else - but when someone outside uses the terms that we use every day among ourselves we get all uptight. I believe the House is losing esteem not because of the squabbling that goes on in this Chamber, but because of the two standards we apply, one for the protection of ourselves and one against the community. The community does not have that same protection. As the Minister of Justice has said, we cannot have good-quality debate and make good progress in this House as long as we tell ourselves that we are beyond reproach in the community, and as long as we exercise a different set of standards. I have to agree with the Deputy Prime Minister that this case has done nothing more than lift a sordid matter from the obscurity it deserved into a position of publicity. In my words, it has given unnecessary notoriety to the person in question. It is sad that the matter should have been referred to the Privileges Committee in the first place. However, I suppose that, the case having been so referred, it was necessary to bring in some form of censure; but the sooner we review the Standing Orders seriously, and apply in this House the standards we expect in the community, the more respect the community will have for us. Air Commodore GILL (East Coast Bays) - It seems to me that some of the speeches made by Government members today have been a very strong reflection on your judgment, as Speaker. It has been said repeatedly - and the member for Hastings who has just spoken was no exception - that the case we are discussing should never have been referred to the Privileges Committee; that it was an error of judgment to do so. I am surprised, Mr Speaker, that you have not taken exception to that comment, which has been repeatedly made by members on the other side of the House. Parliament and the Speaker decided that there was a case to answer. Now we have received the report of the committee, and no one on this side of the House is arguing very strongly about it. I do not have very much confidence in it. I have sat on the Privileges Committee. I have heard the evidence given to that committee in public. I know that the evidence was accepted while representatives of the press were present. I have heard evidence being given to the committee which was not ruled out of order as irrelevant, and then I have gone back to the Privileges Committee and found that the chairman has thrown a motion on the table and said, “That's it; none of the evidence before us is relevant.” He did not say that when the press representatives were present, or when members of the public were there to hear. No, it was behind closed doors, with neither press nor public present, that he threw the motion on the table and said, “That's it.” He knows he has the support of the Government majority on the committee, and he knows he can do what he likes. He knows he can turn a select committee into a kangaroo court if he wants to, because of the power he has. He shows no restraint or understanding at all, and makes no effort to divorce himself from party politics and to sit as a member of a tribunal in judgment. Of course, throughout his history he has not had the responsibility of sitting in judgment on men. He may have been associated with the justice, but only through talking, and when he is faced with the situation, as chairman of the Privileges Committee, of sitting in judgment on someone, he does not have the capacity, the experience, or the knowledge of how to go about it. Therefore he sits in the quiet of his room, drafts a motion, and throws it down on the table and says that none of the evidence is admissible. We managed to persuade the Prime Minister to agree to delete one or two of the very provocative statements from the report, and after all that performance, when the report is brought back to the House, we on this side of the House raise no strong objection to it. What we are debating this morning is the fact that the Minister of Justice began his debate on the report with an attack on the Leader of the Opposition. Of course, we know his phobia about the Leader of the Opposition; we know he is mesmerised by him. We have seen the Minister of Justice sitting there, in the presence of the Leader of the Opposition, with the sweat running down his face, terrified like a ferret. We have seen that, and we know the mesmerism from which he suffers. Today the Minister is trying to do a little twinkle-toe ballet dance, but he is not doing it very successfully. The Deputy Prime Minister has stated that anybody who thought this case should have been sent to the Privileges Committee must have been out of his mind. I am sure that is what he said, because I wrote it down very carefully. My colleague the member for North Shore rose to a point of order on that statement. I did not hear the ruling on the point of order - I must have been preoccupied at the time - but I am sure that is what the Deputy Prime Minister said: anybody who thought this case should be referred to a select committee must have been out of his mind. If that is not a breach of privilege, I do not know what is. How can the Deputy Prime Minister say that when he is aware that the Speaker decided that there was a case to answer and that it must go before the Privileges Committee? How could the Deputy Prime Minister and Acting Leader of the House make that statement in good conscience? Of course, I know the reason: he could make such a statement because of the type of conscience he has. On our side of the House, we have a phenomenon. Government members thought that, because the Leader of the Opposition had been Minister of Finance - and a very successful Minister of Finance who carried the country through economic difficulties and brought it out on top - they were dealing with a man whose vision was only on a financial track; but then they found out their mistake and they are rather terrified about it. They found that the man we have as our leader has responsibility across the board. Mr Wetere - Which leader? You have three of them over there. Air Commodore GILL-We have only one leader, and no one knows that better than the member for Western Maori. In fact, all Government members are very well aware of that. [Interruption.] There is no need for the Acting Leader of the House to point his finger and shout at me. He has had his say and he made a mess of it. Now Government members are suddenly faced with the fact that we have a phenomenal leader who appeals to the people throughout the country. Mr SPEAKER - Order! I am afraid I shall have to intervene again. We are getting away from the question before the House. It is inevitable that some rebuttal must be allowed of the charges made, but members must not develop their own ideas of what they would like to discuss in this way. The question before the House is that the report do lie upon the table and be adopted and agreed to. Air Commodore GILL–Thank you for reminding me of the question, Mr Speaker. I shall not take very much longer in replying to the very strong and venomous attack made on the leader of the Opposition by the Minister of Justice when he opened this debate. His vindictiveness has been apparent for many months now, and he knows the cause - his recognition and his fear of what will happen to him in November. The Minister can be venomous when he wants to be. However, when he really got down to the important things he had to say, I believe he made some good statements. I have felt, as have many other members on both sides of the House, that our position of privilege as members is perhaps a little too great, and that we tend to rest a bit too much on a pedestal. Hon. Dr A. M. Finlay - Listen to the Venom. Air Commodore GILL–I shall come back to the venom. The Minister of Justice has referred again to his venom, and I must answer him by telling him that it is not winning him any votes or any support. In fact, his venom is not very clever at all. I admit that he does make clever speeches sometimes, but when he introduces the sort of venom we heard from him today he is not being at all clever. The Minister did say that we needed to look at ourselves and decide whether our position of privilege was soundly based. I had much sympathy with that statement. Of course, there are alternatives: you can, for example, restrain people such as the member for Kapiti from naming others from a privileged position in the House. If we could have a leader on the Government side of the House to restrain people from saying, from a privileged position, things they would be terrified to say outside the House, that would help a great deal. Something must be done. Obviously the Standing Orders will not be changed this year; but as a first step I advise Government members to get hold of their Prime Minister - if they can catch him - and ask him to make at least a start by stopping members on his side of the House from using their privileged position in a way that offends people outside the House, particularly because the people have no recourse against the allegations made. This debate would have ended almost an hour ago if the Minister of Justice had not tried to sneak in on the record another personal attack on the Leader of the Opposition. On this occasion he thought he might be able to do that without being answered back by the Opposition, but of course he is being answered by Opposition members. His number is up. We know his little flyweight situation, and it will be dealt with in due course. Mr SPEAKER - Before I call another member I must rule that from now on we discuss only the report before the House. As I said before, charges have been made, but I think at this stage there has also been rebuttal of those charges. It is time we came back to the report before us. Recommendations about Standing Orders and the Privileges Committee are very important, but I do not think this is the atmosphere in which they should be discussed. The only motion before the House is that this report be laid upon the table and be adopted and agreed to. Hon. R. L. BAILEY (Minister of Railways) - I rise to support the motion of the Minister of Justice. The Privileges Committee had an unsavoury task to do, but it measured up to its responsibility. I would be one of the first to object to the privileges accorded to members of Parliament being taken away from them, but with these privileges comes responsibility, and we have not seen too much of that from the Opposition this morning. We must have the right to be able to our minds in Parliament in the knowledge that what we say will not be used against us in a law court. We have a responsibility not to abuse that privilege. Unfortunately, some have abused it. I would say that the greatest transgressor has been the Leader of the Opposition, who has used his privileged position in this House - Hon. G. F. Gair - A point of order, Mr Speaker. You have given a ruling on the course that the debate should take. . I submit to you that for the last half minute, if not for the last minute, the Minister of Railways has been right off course. I am quite sure that Opposition members are only too willing to debate this matter on the broadest terms of reference we were given by the Minister of Justice, but if the debate is to be tightened up it behoves a Minister of the Crown to set a good example. He is very much transgressing, and I thought you would have interrupted him. Mr SPEAKER - I appreciate the point, but I was speaking to the Deputy Speaker, who came to see if I wanted to be relieved. I must confess I did not hear what the honourable member said, but I do know that if he was getting off the line he would be prepared to go back to it. Hon. R. L. BAILEY-I was speaking about our privileges, and I think the remarks I was making were quite relevant to the debate. I thought I was respecting your request that we speak to the matter before us, and that is the breaching of privilege. Mr SPEAKER - Order! No, we are not discussing the general question of breach of privilege, but this particular case. Hon. R. L. BAILEY_Yes, I accept that. I support the motion moved by the Minister of Justice. I do not think the Privileges Committee could have done anything other than what it has done. I agree with those who have said that this is a storm in a teacup, and that the matter need not have gone as far as it has. I am more than disturbed that Opposition members have not discussed this matter as we are required to discuss it under the Standing Orders. I think your request that we should go back to discussing the motion is timely. I fully support the motion that this report do lie upon the table. Personal attacks have been made - and the Leader of the Opposition can sit there and chuckle because he was able to say lots of things that had no relevancy. Hon. R. D. Muldoon - I’m sorry; I wasn't listening to the member. Hon. R. L. BAILEY-He can sit there and chuckle as much as he likes. I heard the member for North Shore say that the Minister of Justice could not resist throwing mud at the attractive face of the Leader of the Opposition. I cannot find any substance in that remark. Since when has the Leader of the Opposition had an attractive face? Hon. G. F. Gair - A point of order, Mr Speaker. I remind you that before the Minister rose to speak you gave a ruling to the House. This is the second time the Minister has transgressed, and the second time you have not interrupted him. When a Minister talks about throwing mud in the face of the Leader of the Opposition, you should sit him down or accept the fact that this will inevitably broaden the debate. Mr SPEAKER - My attention had again been diverted by a member coming up to speak to me. If the member on his feet transgressed in that way I ask him to confine himself to the question before the House, which is that the report of the committee do lie upon the table. Hon. R. L. BAILEY_Yes, Mr Speaker. I was just rebutting a remark that had been made earlier, and I thought that it was relevant. The motion before us is one that we must support, and I think it is a pity that the matter ever had to come to this. I hope that in the future, after this sorry affair has received the publicity it no doubt will receive, people in the community will act in a responsible manner. I support the motion. Hon. DAVID THOMSON (Stratford) - It is now 17 minutes past 10 and no member of the House who has spoken on the motion that the report of the Privileges Committee should lie upon the table has spoken against the motion. I agree with it. I was considering whether I should get your call and move that the question be now put, and I am sure you would have had some sympathy for such a thought. The issue really is whether an individual outside calling himself, shall I say commercially, Carmen, should have been censured or should have been in any other way dealt with by Parliament, notice having been taken of the fact that he had made some reflections or observations which were regarded as reflections on the conduct of members of Parliament. He alleged that there was some indulging in rather off-beat sexual practices. It seems to me that the precedent that was set in 1969 by the late Mr Kirk and the House at that time justified our proceeding as we have proceeded, and I think that the report of the committee in this respect is about right. It has taken note of Mr Carmen's observations, if that is the right way to address him. It has said, in effect, that Parliament does not think they were very wise or very nice, and that, in any case, they are not proved, and so he ought to be reprimanded. That is about the lowest sentence in the military jurisdiction; the lowest one is that he could have been admonished. There are these degrees of penalty, and I wonder why the committee did not consider that Mr Carmen should have been admonished. But this episode has been much ado about nothing. I think the Minister of Justice will have learnt, or at least I hope he will have learnt, a lesson from this debate. I hope it will end shortly, and we will all support the motion. It is clear that, when the Privileges Committee has dealt with such a matter, the most appropriate way of putting its findings and recommendations to the House is for the Minister in charge to put it flatly and dispassionately, and not try to make profit out of it as the Minister of Justice did this morning. However, the Government is in charge of the business of the House, and if its action has led to the waste, as we believe it has been, of more than 14 hours, that is the Government’s responsibility. I always want to see Parliament respected and held in the highest regard by the people, because we are more than just a House of Representatives. But I do hope the time might come when there will be a sufficient understanding of the need for greater freedom of speech, without umbrage being taken at descriptions by entertainers. After all, I suppose it was telecast for the purposes of entertainment, but such remarks were taken note of in 1969, and now they have been taken note of again. I think the effect of this report will be to give a renewed warning to all people outside Parliament - and particularly to people in the entertainment world, who are inclined deliberately to be provocative in order to be entertaining - not to make unsubstantiated allegations against members of Parliament. Of course, on the other side I suppose the committee's report reminds us that we have to sustain the dignity of Parliament, which I am sure could have been better sustained by the Minister of Justice if, in moving the motion before us, he had been able to refrain from indulging himself in the temptation to attack the Leader of the Opposition. It was unnecessary, it was irrelevant, and it did not help the debate at all. I do not think Mr Carmen will have his commercial standing in any way reduced by his experience. Indeed, he may well find that he has profited by it. He has become even more famous - or notorious, if that is the better word - because of it. But I hope the matter will stand as a reminder to the people that Parliament is the people's institution, and that it deserves respect and should not be taken lightly and treated as a 'matter of fun, which most definitely it is not. Finally, I hope that the Minister of Justice has at last learnt a lesson on how to deal with members of Parliament in the House. Hon. Sir ROY JACK (Rangitikei) - It is my desire to make very brief reference to the remarks - I think the mistaken remarks - of the member for Hastings. He alleged not only a situation of double standards arising from the matter before the House, but also deficiencies in our Standing Orders governing the matter of privilege. If he cared to look at our Standing Orders 427 to 432 he would find that there is not a grain of justification for his suggestion. He has probably never bothered to read Standing Orders on the subject. The standards by which this and other alleged breaches of privilege are judged are matters of usage and custom of this Parliament, and of the Mother of Parliaments going back for a very long time. There is perhaps room for questioning whether the standards are always appropriate. In the present case we had a person appearing on television, presumably before hundreds of thousands of people, and making very unsavoury allegations about members of this House. Subsequently he admitted that he knew not a single member and that he had no grounds whatever for his allegation, and if it is to be said that this House has any dignity but that it should not take any notice of such a thing, then I feel that view is mistaken. It is possible that in some cases the question of privilege may be too readily raised, but I doubt even that, if one looks at how seldom in the last 10 or 15 years a question of privilege has been raised. There have been very few instances per Parliament - extremely few per year - and I am sure there have been many years in the last 10 or 20 when there has been no question of privilege raised from one end of the year to the other. In the circumstances, I wonder whether the views expressed by the member for Hastings, which are quite incorrect if he looks at the Standing Orders, are his own views or whether they were breathed to him. At all events, I think it harms rather than helps this House if a member claims that we are acting on double standards and that our Standing Orders are wrong. The Standing Orders do not even come into the picture. Hon L. R. ADAMS-SCHNEIDER (Waikato) - We are debating the report of a very important committee, the Privileges Committee, the membership of which almost invariably consists of the most senior members of the House. The committee has reported on a case referred to it by the Speaker and the House. As has been said by other members on this side of the House, the agreement entered into between the Whips would have been adhered to if the report and recommendation had been discussed and presented by the chairman of the committee, the Minister of Justice. There would have been acknowledgement and comment from this side of the House, and that would have been the end of the matter. The House would then have moved on to the other business for the day. But the Minister of Justice, as he has frequently done, brought political material into the debate and launched a personal attack on the Leader of the Opposition. Members of the Labour Party should have learnt by now that in a debating chamber of this nature members on this side of the House are not going to sit by and let that happen. The attack was quite unjustified. You have said, Mr Speaker, that this matter was properly referred, at the request of the Leader of the Opposition, to the Privileges Committee, and I believe it has been properly investigated by the committee. I listened with interest to much of what the Minister of Justice said, and he spoke at some length. Some of his comments were interesting, and I agree that there could well be time set aside by a committee of the House to discuss the matter of privileges and the power of the House in that regard, as well as the way in which matters initiated by people outside the House can be referred to the House for its decision. I agree with my colleague the member for Stratford that Parliament is a very important institution, and that it is proper that Parliament should be able to sit in discussion and in judgment in respect of certain matters where the privilege of the institution is called into question and is breached. I support the member for Rangitikei in his comments on the speech made by the member for Hastings, though I am bound to concede that the speech was much more moderate than speeches made by the member for Hastings in the past. That is quite a change of front and I appreciate it. The member referred to people outside the House attacking us, and implied that we should take a charitable attitude to them. I am bound to point out, on the other hand, that he said nothing about the Minister of Justice, in this House in the past, attacking people outside the House. I have in mind the charge he made against Mr Meadowcroft which was proved to be incorrect. When his colleagues criticise the Leader of the Opposition for launching an attack in this debate, I would point out that the Leader of the Opposition was criticising a person who was in the House and who had spoken. The Minister of Justice should have presented the findings of the committee he chairs and left it at that, but instead he launched into a personal attack on the Leader of the Opposition, which is why Opposition members have entered into this debate today. I support the report. The reprimand is a fair conclusion, but I think it is a pity that the media, and in particular TV-1, give the emphasis they do to this type of case and the people engaged in this sort of activity. When people operating in the media bring forward a person of some prominence in the so-called entertainment world - I was going to use the word “notoriety”, and I could use a stronger expression - on a volatile medium such as television, just about anything can happen. In those circumstances it was proper for the matter to be referred to the select committee, which seriously considered it and brought down a moderate type of recommendation - Hon. D. J. Highet - A bit wishywashy. Hon. L. R. ADAMS-SCHNEIDER - Yes, but I do not think the case merited anything terribly serious. Nevertheless, it was proper that it should be investigated and considered by the committee. I support the recommendation. While it should have been stronger, to my mind it does at least indicate that Parliament was doing what it should have done in investigating a matter properly brought before it. I hope that as a result TV-1 - or those responsible for it, because I know the Government has no responsibility for it today; we cannot talk to any Minister who is responsible - will watch standards and the type of programme put on at a viewing time when the vast majority of people can see it, and when this sort of sensationalism is introduced virtually into every home. As I said, I support the recommendation of the committee, but I very much regret that the Minister of Justice sought, in what may have been an interesting speech, to inject politics and personalities. It was simply another attempt by the anti-Muldoon party to have a go at the Leader of the Opposition. Hon. ALLAN McCREADY (Manawatu) - I listened with great interest to the report by the Minister of Justice this morning. Along with many other members on this side of the House I had not intended to take part in the debate, but I thought the report from the Minister took a rather strange turn. It was very full, and I believe it was a little softer than could have been expected in the circumstances. However, it is not for me to judge the committee, because I was not on it and therefore did not hear the evidence and am not qualified to criticise too much. Had the Minister confined himself to the actual report I think it would have gone through the House without debate, but his reference to a previous report was in very bad taste. There is no doubt about that, and it is just another example of antiMuldoonism. Hon. R. J. Tizard–Who's he? Hon. ALLAN McCREADY-He is the man who will be Prime Minister in January 1976, and the Minister of Finance will then be a back-bencher. It was very interesting to hear the Minister of Justice refer to the person in question as “A”. The member for Stratford referred to the person as “he”, and I think the public is now so confused that no one knows what it is. If we want to improve the standard of this House we must stop the provocation that is going on. Any man worth his salt will come back if he is provoked. I know the temperament of certain people, and I admire them for it because I have a little bit of that in myself. If someone throws one at me, I cannot help throwing one back. Hon. Dr A. M. Finlay - Putting the boot in. Hon. ALLAN McCREADY. If the Minister of Justice tries to put the boot in with me he will get a bigger one back, and that is not a threat; it is a promise. [Interruption.] Mr SPEAKER - Order! Hon. ALLAN McCREADY I think Government members are getting a little ruffled, Mr Speaker. Sniping will get them nowhere. The Minister of Justice started up something this morning that he and Government members can take full responsibility for, because otherwise this report would have been accepted by the House, and by now we would be carrying on with the ordinary business of the day. Because the Minister chose to refer back to a previous report that had already been dealt with, he opened up the wound again. Well, if he likes to open up these wounds, we will get together and sew them up again. The action the Minister of Justice took this morning ill became a Minister. From time to time we have been accused of being thin-skinned if we retaliate after people have said what they like about us, as they are able to do. I believe that the Privileges Committee is an avenue of protection for members of Parliament. If the public at large, and particularly people in the category we are dealing with in this report, offer such insults, it does not matter how much they are denied by the members against whom they are made; nobody will believe them. It is only by bringing people before the Privileges Committee that such remarks are proved to be false. I admire the attitude of the Leader of the Opposition in asking for his case to be heard before the news media. That in itself showed that he had nothing to hide, because he was prepared to face the music of the news media. Perhaps it would have been a good thing if the evidence on the matter before us had been heard in the same circumstances. Then the public would have had a better idea of the attitude and irresponsibility of some people. The report was a fair one, but I do not think it went quite far enough. I repeat that it is the Opposition's role to look after the interests of the minority. If the Government takes the lead and sets out to provoke, as the Minister of Justice did this morning, then we lay the blame fairly and squarely on him and on the Government for lowering the good name of this House. Mr HARRISON (Hawke's Bay) - There is no need for the Minister of Justice to consider replying to this debate. He has already done enough damage to this House and to his reputation. We understood that the debate, initiated by the Minister of Justice as chairman of the select committee, would be a short one, and would be replied to by the Leader of the Opposition as another member of the committee. The matter would have lain there, and that was about all that was necessary for this sorry little case. It is on the shoulders of the Minister of Justice, and his alone, that Parliament is still debating the report of the Privileges Committee and whether that report should lie on the table and be agreed to. I am led to believe that it is not Carmen who is being censured in this debate and being put on trial, but the Minister of Justice. Hon. R. J. Tizard - Nonsense. You're always shifting the blame. It's the same stunt every time. Mr HARRISON. - The Deputy Prime Minister has blown his fuse again at very short notice. However, we are used to that and accept it with good humour. I say once again that the Minister of Justice has been put on trial by Parliament. We have become familiar in the past with his actions in the House. This morning he made a well considered speech. The majority of members would agree with most of it. However, he could not resist the temptation of indulging his hate in a venomous attack on the Leader of the Opposition. He has done this in the past, but I would have thought that by now, at his age, he would have learnt wisdom and restraint. Unfortunately, with the passage of time these virtues have not developed in the Minister of Justice. I leave him there. Parliament decided on a previous occasion that an attack on members by people outside Parliament should be a matter for discussion before the Privileges Committee. Fortunately, these instances are few. I think all of us regret it when Parliament sees fit to take these matters to the Privileges Committee for a decision. I remind the Deputy Prime Minister that the House unanimously decided that the Carmen case should be referred to the Privileges Committee. No matter what he might say about the matter now, or might have thought then, his voice was not raised against the case being referred to the Privileges Committee when you, Mr Speaker, decided on further consideration that there was a prima facie case. The Deputy Prime Minister said that the referral of the case to the Privileges Committee gave Carmen a degree of publicity and notoriety that he did not deserve. I remind the Deputy Prime Minister that it was not the referral of the case to the Privileges Committee that gave Carmen the notoriety and publicity, but remarks made in an interview on TV-1. Because it was felt that those remarks were in bad taste and that Carmen had cast a slur on members of Parliament, the House unanimously decided to refer the case to the Privileges Committee. A similar case, in which somebody outside Parliament insinuated that some members were homosexual, occurred once before, in 1969. The then Leader of the Opposition, the late Right Hon. Norman Kirk, brought the matter before the House, which decided that the editor of the Evening Post had infringed and should be brought before the Privileges Committee. The committee was set up, and the editor was brought before it in the same way as Carmen was in this instance. Much the same result came out of that earlier hearing as has come out of this one. It was interesting that the Government decided that the report of this select committee should be brought in first this morning, ahead of all other business. That is an indication of the priority the Government accords the business of the House and the running of the country. I do not doubt that the report would have been agreed to within 10 minutes had it not been for the Minister of Justice. I would have thought that the Bills on the Order Paper were of greater importance and priority than the report of a select committee on a matter of privilege. I would have thought that any Government worthy of being called a Government would have had its priorities more in order than that. However, the Opposition was willing to go along with the Government's request that the matter be dealt with first. It is the Government’s privilege to take such a course, and it has the power to enforce its wish if it so desires. I am rather surprised that the Government did not say something to the Minister of Justice, but perhaps it did not realise that he would wobble off the straight and narrow path of sanity. That has happened before, and it is because of his action today that we are still debating the report of this select committee. Mr N. V. DOUGLAS (Auckland Central) - I move, That the question be now put. The House divided. Ayes, 38 Amos; Arthur; Bailey; Barclay, B. G.; Bassett; Batchelor; Brooks; Christie; Colman; Davey; Douglas, N. V.; Faulkner; Finlay; Fraser; Freer: Hunt; Isbey; King; Kirk; MacDonell; McMillan; Marshall, C. R.; May; Mayson; O'Brien; O'Flynn; Rata; Reweti; Ridley; Rogers; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Tizard; Walding; Wall; Wetere; Williams. Tellers: Barclay, R. M.; Drayton. Noes, 29 Adams-Schneider; Allen, K. R.; Allen, P. B.; Bolger; Carter; Comber; Downie; Gair; Gandar; Gill; Gordon; Highet; Holland; Holyoake; Jack; Lapwood; Luxton; McCready; Marshall, J. R.; Muldoon; Schultz; Talbot; Talboys; Thomson; Walker; Wilkinson; Young, W. L. Tellers: Harrison; Birch. Pairs: For: Douglas, R. O.; McGuigan; Rowling. Against: Young, V. S.; McLachlan; Sloane. Majority for, 9. Motion agreed to. Mr SPEAKER - The question now is, That the report do lie upon the table, and be adopted and agreed to. Motion agreed to.

IRN: 1256
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_alleged_breach_of_privilege_carmen_rupe_21_may_1975.html
TITLE: Alleged Breach of Privilege - Carmen Rupe (21 May 1975)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 21 May 1975
YEAR: 1975
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 21 May 1975, New Zealand Parliament. Hon. R. D. MULDOON (Leader of the Opposition) - A point of order, Mr Speaker. I wish to raise the matter that was adverted to a little earlier - the question of certain allegations regarding members of this House made by a person called Carmen. It has been suggested by you that there was no complaint on this matter by the Opposition. According to press statements made by you, the matter was in your hands, and we were content to leave it in your hands, believing that there was not the slightest doubt that you would bring it to the House as a case of breach of privilege. In this morning's Dominion you are reported as having said that you had consulted with the Prime Minister and that “we” had decided to take no further action. I do not know whether that report is correct or not, but that was the report. I suggest to you that at the very least there was a lack of courtesy in not consulting both sides of the House before such a decision was made, but, be that as it may, it is the view of members on this side of the House that the matter should be referred to the Privileges Committee, and I would like your leave to move accordingly. The statement has not been denied; it cannot be denied, because there is an official transcript of what was said, including the statement that one member of this House has engaged in homosexual activity - and that is illegal at present - and that other members are, I think the term used was “bisexual”. If that kind of thing can be said in public without action being taken by this House, I suggest to you that the results will be worse for Parliament than anything I may have been alleged to have written, or than anything resulting from it. The House having now, by the Government majority, taken what I believe to be a political action, I suggest that we look at this other matter again, and that Parliament should decide whether or not there has been a prima facie breach, and whether or not the Privileges Committee should look at that as well. I would like your approval, and I think I have to have your leave, to move that that matter also be referred to the Privileges Committee. Hon. R. J. TIZARD (Deputy Prime Minister) - I would like to refer you to Standing Order 432. If the matter referred to by the Leader of the Opposition is put before the House, it is up to the Leader of the Opposition to give some clear reference to it. He should give the actual words or actions which he claims to be a breach of privilege. He refers to what he thinks was said. Standing Order 432 refers specifically to a complaint founded on a document. I understand these remarks were made in either a radio or a television programme. I neither heard nor saw any such programme, and in common with many other members of this House I would have some difficulty in voting either way on a matter of which I have no precise knowledge. I think it is perfectly in order for the Leader of the Opposition to raise this matter with proper evidence of the words or actions complained of, but just a vague reference to them, or even to your comments on them, is insufficient for the House to be able to make a decision. Hon. R. D. MULDOON (Leader of the Opposition) - I think the deputy leader of the Labour Party has a point. He is perfectly justified, and so I will tell Parliament what it is that is complained of. “And, Carmen, you must really be appalled at the supposed - the lack of support for the rights of homosexual law reform in the Houses of Parliament. Do you see some of those people that you know not actively supporting any reform up there?” That is the first point complained about. Hon. R. J. Tizard–This is a transcript of what? Hon. R. D. MULDOON. - This is an official transcript of a television interview. “Carmen: I think a lot of them are - are frightened, rather shy; or I think most of them are frightened because I think if they do give their support and be seen on a TV or in the paper, a lot of them would lose their good jobs they are in. Reporter: Are some of our members of Parliament homosexuals? Carmen: I think there's one that I know of. Reporter: And on the bisexuality question? Carmen: Um, there's quite a few.” Those are allegations made about members of this House. Having been said on television, I suggest they are a breach of privilege prima facie - to use the term we are using so much today - and this person should appear before the Privileges Committee. I also suggest that there is a much stronger case for that happening than for what we were dealing with a little earlier this afternoon. Mr HARRISON (Hawke's Bay) - I support the suggestion of the Leader of the Opposition that you should give your approval to this question being referred to the Privileges Committee as well. Perhaps you may be prepared to defer your judgment on it until tomorrow. This matter arose at a time when the House was not in a position to draw it to your attention. However, it was drawn to your attention, I believe by the Prime Minister - or perhaps you saw it yourself. You rightly took the opportunity of having the matter investigated. According to the press report you were provided with a transcript of the television programme, and you used that as the basis for deciding whether this person, Carmen, should be brought before the House on a matter of breach of privilege. We understand, from the report in this morning's Dominion, that you consulted with the Prime Minister, but I see nothing in the Dominion report to suggest that you consulted with the Leader of the Opposition. There are members on both sides of this House who could have some concern at the sort of statements that have been made by Carmen on the television programme. I suggest that it would have been fairer to members on both sides of the House had you consulted not just the Prime Minister but the Leader of the Opposition as well before coming to your conclusion on whether or not there was a prima facie case for Carmen to answer in regard to a breach of privilege. I suggest that this action could be seen by some people as a useful precedent. They may wish to cast slurs on Parliament or on individual members, and it could be a case of “Oh, well, so long as the Government is not referred to directly, it will be all right”, and they may get away with it. I am not sure that what the Dominion reports is correct, but in the final paragraph we read, “Though some aspects of it concerned us, particularly the loaded questions which the interviewer put to Carmen, we have decided that no action will be taken.” By “we” the article meant - and I presume you, too, Mr Speaker, meant this - that you and the Prime Minister between you had decided on this. Since the Leader of the Opposition was not consulted at that time, I do suggest that a good case has been put forward by him now, and I urge you to give full consideration to the case he has made that Carmen should be brought before the Privileges Committee. Right Hon. W. E. ROWLING (Prime Minister) - I think I should comment here because of the statement in this morning's paper and the remarks made by the Leader of the Opposition. First, I wish to make it clear that I did not see the programme in question, but you, Mr Speaker, were good enough to refer to me a transcript of the programme to see whether I, as an individual member, thought perhaps there had been a breach of privilege. There is certainly a good deal of innuendo in the comments, some of which have just been related to us by the Leader of the Opposition. They were in my view very shrewdly put together, in a way to preclude any possibility of identification; they were simply comments that had a blanket effect in respect of Parliament. The transcript I saw went on to indicate that the person being interviewed is writing a book, and it seemed to me that there was a very strong possibility that this was part and parcel of a rather well put together publicity campaign in order to launch the book. I took the view, right'y or wrongly, that it was not part of Parliament's job to assist in any promotional exercise in something of this nature. That certainly was a major factor in the consideration of my saying to you, Mr Speaker, that I thought there was no advantage to Parliament - and I am conscious of and very jealous of the rights of Parliament - in taking action in relation to that text. I agree that it is a matter of judgment, but, having read the text as a whole, I could not help but be left with a feeling - and other members may have seen the possibility - that this was not a total exercise but part of an exercise and part of a promotional campaign into which we very easily could be absorbed. If the publication goes ahead and there is something just a little more specific, then the matter will be clear-cut, no question about that. What happened on this occasion seems to me to be not too materially different from a newspaper item that I recall a few, but not many, years ago; I cannot say what year it was. The question of homosexual law was under discussion in this House and a certain well known newspaper came out with the proposition that since there was alleged to be a certain percentage of the New Zealand population who in one way or another were involved in homosexual pursuits, therefore, by definition, there were a certain number of members of Parliament who were similarly involved. Hon. Members - That was quite different. Right Hon. W. E. ROWLING - I do not recall a matter of privilege having been raised on that occasion, though I do recall some members being very angry about the implications. Although honourable members have interjected that that instance was quite different, it seems to me that in fact there is a considerable parallel, because in the present instance we have a blanket innuendo, as there was on that previous occasion. Right Hon. Sir JOHN MARSHALL (Karori) - The Prime Minister reminds me of the actual incident. This was at the time evidence was being given before a select committee by a person who made the general observation that, on the basis of averages, about four members of this House would be homosexuals. That was reported in the Evening Post with a headline that four members of Parliament were homosexuals. The point was raised as a matter of privilege by the then Leader of the Opposition, the late Mr Kirk, and I think I was Leader of the House at the time. It was submitted that there was a prima facie case, and the then Speaker accepted it as such. The matter was submitted to the Privileges Committee, of which I was a member, and we had the editor of the Evening Post before that committee. He made an apology, and that apology was accepted. The case under discussion is a comparable one. In the earlier case, on the motion of the then Leader of the Labour Party, it was considered to be a breach of privilege, and it was dealt with accordingly. Right Hon. W. E. Rowling - I must confess that my memory let me down. I could recall the matter being discussed, but not its going to the Privileges Committee. Right Hon. Sir JOHN MARSHALL– That was the situation, and if we are to be consistent and follow precedent, then that would be the case to follow. Hon. J. B. GORDON (Clutha) - I have a few comments to add to what the Prime Minister has said. There is a quite definite distinction between what he said and the attitude of the Opposition on this matter. I did not see the original programme, but within quarter of an hour I learned of it on the telephone, and it was considered that there had been an implication that could impugn every single member of this House. At that stage I took steps on behalf of the Opposition. I approached the then Acting Leader of the Opposition to arrange for this side of the House to receive a transcript of the programme. the one to which my leader has just referred. About 3 or 4 days later, as a result of our investigations, we were told that you were inquiring into it on our behalf. I cannot vouch that those were the exact words, because they came to me secondhand, but we understood vou were looking into the matter. We had been told that in a semi-official capacity. On that basis the matter rested, and it was not until this morning that we found a decision conveyed to all members of Parliament. The allegation in the transcript “somewhere in the House” is all-embracing and we are equally implicated. On that basis alone the criterion for sending the matter to the Privileges Committee is much more acute than in the case outlined by the member for Karori. Another point to be borne in mind - and it was raised by the Deputy Prime Minister - is whether Standing Order 432 enables us to send this matter to the Privileges Committee. Probably his argument was annulled by the Leader of the Opposition reading the actual transcript, which I understand you yourself have seen. I also took that inference from this morning's Dominion. When the Deputy Prime Minister was quoting from Standing Order 432 he did not refer to publication, but such publication would have wide effect upon the public. It was implied that someone in this House was guilty of an improper practice. Indeed, as has been pointed out, at the moment it is illegal practice. The aspersion was cast right across this House. As I have already said, we in the Opposition initiated our own inquiries, and, incidentally, we were so concerned that I believe we paid for our own transcript. But, quite appropriately, we left it to you to take action. We rested our faith on you. The first we heard of the result of that was this morning. We believe we are entitled to be defended and heard from our side on a case before the Privileges Committee. Frankly, I was gravely disturbed when I was phoned within a quarter of an hour of that programme taking place, and I took the matter up with the responsible person on our side. We were led to believe the matter was in good hands, and we trust it can go to the Privileges Committee. Hon. G. F. Gair - Mr SpeakerMr SPEAKER - I am quite prepared to rule on the matter, and I hope members will be satisfied. It is quite a while since the incident occurred. I do not want to quote Standing Orders about time, because we provide reasonable time and members could have thought the matter was in my hands. On that ground I accept that the timing is correct. I was concerned when I heard garbled versions of what had been said, and I thought it my duty to obtain a transcript of what had been said. It took some time to get, but I did obtain a copy, although I did not know that members of the Opposition also had a copy. The Prime Minister was out of the country at the time, and I considered I should not deal with the matter but should leave it until his return and refer it to him. I was not asked by the Prime Minister to obtain the transcript; I did that on behalf of the House. The point made that I should have referred the matter to the Opposition is a proper one. I accept the blame and apologise for not doing so. I did not receive any representation from any member of the House. I obtained a copy of the transcript on my own volition as I felt I should look at the matter. I consider that the person asking the questions was as much to blame, but I could be wrong about that. The point is that a member of the House has at the earliest opportunity raised a matter which he considers reflects on members of the House and has asked that the matter be referred to the Privileges Committee. I consider that to be a reasonable request. I was concerned with the matter and was approached by the news media as to what I had done about it. I consulted with the Prime Minister, and the “we” mentioned in the statement this morning should have been “I”, as I had asked for the transcript. I do not want to involve the Prime Minister. I have been asked whether there is a prima facie case for referring the matter to the Privileges Committee. I believe there is a prima facie case. I am quite happy that a member of the House has raised the matter, and this is the way it should be done. At the same time, if the Leader of the Opposition had mentioned it earlier we could have perhaps done this yesterday. But the case has been properly represented to the House. I believe it is the responsibility of the committee, as a prima facie case has been made. Hon. R. D. MULDOON (Leader of the Opposition) - I move, That this matter be referred to the Privileges Committee. I want to say, Mr Speaker, that I accept your apology, and I can understand the circumstances under which the omission occurred. We took it that you had the matter in your hands. We did not raise the matter with you as we thought it would certainly be so referred. The House was in recess, and it was only the newspaper report this morning that again raised the matter in our minds. We thought it was still under consideration. Motion agreed to.

IRN: 1255
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_homosexual_law_reform_petition_report_back_8_november_1968.html
TITLE: Homosexual Law Reform petition - report of the Petitions Committee (8 November 1968)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 8 November 1968
YEAR: 1968
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 8 November 1968, New Zealand Parliament. Mr GRIEVE (Awarua) - I am directed by the Petitions Committee to present the report of the committee on the petition of the New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society praying for an amendment to the Crimes Act 1961. The Committee has no recommendation to make. I move, That the report do lie upon the table. The committee heard evidence from representatives of the society who have given the subject of homosexuality several years of close study, and it is indebted also to others who volunteered information and gave reports on the subject. Especially I draw attention to the information given by Dr McLachlan, of Wellington, and Dr Mackay, Superintendent of Porirua Hospital. The committee is well aware of the emotional nature of this subject, and, after full consideration of all the information available, presents this report to the House. We took into consideration reports from other countries, and we also noted that in the Police Gazette of 1966 there were recorded 117 convictions for homosexual offences in New Zealand, 42 involving offences on boys and 75 involving indecency between males. Of those 75, only six were convicted of sodomy. Speaking as a member of the committee, with the benefit of all the information I heard at the committee and of what I have read prior to and since then both for and against the legalising of the homosexual act by consenting males in private, and also speaking personally, I believe the practice of homosexuality is revolting. We all stand for certain moral principles, and the legalising of homosexuality would indicate to society that we do not really condemn homosexual behaviour. If this were made legal the public could feel that it was not very immoral. Personally, I was amazed and disappointed at some of the Church leaders throughout New Zealand who advocated a change in the law to permit homosexual acts to be practised. The very Bible that they preach from condemns immoral living, and I cannot see any justification for legalising homosexual acts and stating that they are not immoral. An expert witness in favour of legalising homosexuality told the committee that he knew many men who lived in fear of the law as it stands in case they should be unable to resist temptation and so risk imprisonment. Surely this shows that the law as it stands is a deterrent to this illegal, revolting, and unnatural behaviour. Hon. A. H. NORDMEYER (Island Bay) - As the member who presented the petition I should like to say a few words. First let me thank the committee for the very great care it gave to the subject, for the very attentive hearing it gave to the witnesses, and for the very careful way in which it has considered the question. The president of the Homosexual Law Reform Society lives in my electorate, and it fell therefore to my lot to present the petition. It was not possible for me to hear all the evidence because it was necessary that I should be present at other committees. I did, however, hear some of the evidence. The general plea of the petitioners was that two sections of the Crimes Act dealing with this matter should be repealed. It is my personal view that the petitioners would have been wiser had they asked for more inquiry into this matter by an independent commission. I know the committee gave the petition all the attention it possibly could, and considered all the evidence that was available to it. However, this is a very complex question, not to be decided on emotional issues alone. It is a question which in my view deserves an inquiry, possibly by a Royal Commission. Members will be aware that the United Kingdom Government established a very representative commission to go into this question, and after hearing evidence from all quarters and considering all the implications that commission recommended that homosexual offences should no longer be regarded as crimes. In coming to such a conclusion the commission did not express any view as to the morality of the actions. It would, I believe, have been the attitude of most, if not all, of the members of the commission that morally these actions were to be condemned, but the question they faced was whether they should be crimes. That is the issue that sooner or later must be faced in this country, because as a result of the Wolfenden commission's report in Britain the House of Commons decided - and the House of Lords concurred and it is now law - that these actions should no longer be crimes within the meaning of the law. The chairman of the Petitions Committee has emphasised that many Church people, and prominent Church people, support the petitioners, and he deplored that fact. I think, in fairness to the Churches concerned and to the individuals in the Churches who expressed their views, it should be made clear that they regard the acts in question as sinful for which the individuals concerned must be answerable. Their point is that making these acts a crime might increase rather than diminish this offensive habit. That is the issue the House at some time must take up. My view is that before the House makes a decision to alter the law - and that can come about only as a result either of Government action or of a private member's Bill - all the facts must be most carefully investigated. I appreciate the care which the Petitions Committee has given to the matter, but I suggest that that is not enough. We need something more than that. Personally I would not, on the evidence available to me at the present time, support the amendment in the law as suggested. I do not say, however, that that would be my attitude if this matter were more carefully investigated than it was possible for the Petitions Committee to investigate it. Mr TALBOT (Ashburton) - In speaking briefly as a member of the Petitions Committee I support wholeheartedly the finding of the committee. This is a matter on which I had no difficulty in reaching a personal decision after hearing the very full and very lengthy evidence and wide-ranging submissions which were put before us. First, I made my decision on the very strong moral issues that underlie the whole of this problem. It is a problem that concerns tens of thousands of people in New Zealand today. I believe there is very wide support for a firm stand to be taken against any lowering of moral standards and codes by condoning in any way these unnatural acts - and I repeat, these unnatural acts. I must add that I find it very hard to understand the attitude of many Church leaders and Church organisations in their desire to change the present law. I am also not convinced that the vast majority of churchgoing people and church-going Christians are in favour of a change in the law. The proposals of the petitioners would, I believe, be a very serious step towards lowering the spiritual and moral fibre of our nation. This is of concern to all responsible New Zealand citizens. I believe that the majority of New Zealanders are in favour of adequate deterrents to prevent any further spread of these unnatural actions. A change in the law as proposed by the petitioners, the New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society, would remove a very necessary deterrent to the protection of many of our younger people and our weak-willed people who could be influenced still further if this unnatural activity is legalised. Whether imprisonment is the right deterrent is debatable, but I am emphatic that a strong deterrent of some kind must continue on our statute book to deal with the issue mentioned in the prayer of the petition. The petitioners have stated that homosexuals live in fear of being caught because of the present law, and I am very pleased that the chairman of the committee has mentioned this point. It is no doubt correct, but I believe this fear is necessary if this unnatural activity is to be controlled in our society. We must remember that fear is something that all people who do not conform with the law and moral codes must live with. I am pleased that this petition has been brought before Parliament because it has given us the opportunity to state quite clearly where we stand. I believe the committee has acted responsibly in this matter in protecting New Zealand citizens and upholding moral standards. Dr FINLAY (Waitakere) - I am rather disappointed, but hardly surprised, at the finding of the committee. In a very few words I should like to explain both of those statements on my part. First of all, as to the lack of surprise, notwithstanding a reputation for radicalism that we enjoy overseas, I believe we are essentially a conservative people as a whole and that the winds of social change at least blow more gently here than they do elsewhere, except perhaps when there are people like the Minister of Justice to fan them in family matters and agitate them rather more than they would have been if they were left alone. Generally it is our habit to follow in the footsteps of the United Kingdom, but at a very considerable distance and several years behind. I am well aware of the widespread opposition in the community to what the petitioners asked for in their prayer, and in that climate of public opinion it would be hardly credible that a report of the nature of the Wolfenden one would be promulgated here, let alone acted upon at the present time. I think I should say, however, that there seems to be little doubt that homosexuality is neither an abstract phenomenon nor a deliberately and perversely chosen way of life. It is a symptom of a sickness less of the body than of the mind. Whether in any given case it is remediable is perhaps debatable, but there is little room for debate that we in this country have insufficient psychiatric talent and experience to diagnose, let alone treat, all the cases that require it. One thing I believe to be beyond all argument is that the cure does not lie in a prison sentence. Rather, is that a source of aggravation and a focus of contamination. As to my disappointment in the committee's recommendation, this lies in the way it gave a negative finding. Like the member for Island Bay, I believe that the committee could have done better by recommending some kind of inquiry, and indeed that the petitioners themselves would have done better had they asked for that rather than for the immediate change in the law which was their precise plea. I, like the member for Island Bay, would like to see some kind of independent inquiry instituted, whether under Government aegis, through the universities, or wherever it may be, to study the problem and conduct our own kind of Wolfenden inquiry. Perhaps this would not reveal many new facts, but it could go a long way towards resolving some of the differences that have manifested themselves before the committee as to the extent of the problem in New Zealand. Here I would like to say that some of the generalisations that were put before the committee were, in my judgment, not only unfortunate, but completely unscientific; and for people to read into these generalisations some assumptions as to the quantum of people concerned in any given body of people is quite wrong. If we had such an inquiry it would enable the public to contemplate the problem calmly and dispassionately and free from the very deep emotion that now attaches to it. May I conclude with the expression of what may be a sobering thought... I think it is generally accepted, at least in medical and scientific circles if not publicly, that every one of us has some latent element of homosexuality in him, even those who are loudest and most vehement in their protestations of revulsion and abhorrence at this kind of conduct or this kind of tendency. The very strength and volume of such protestations may be less an expression of innermost thoughts and emotions than some evidence of their suppression. The Homosexual Law Reform Society and the distinguished people whose names appear on their letter paper are to be thanked and congratulated for inviting Parliament to give consideration to a problem. I think their actual request was at least premature, but the need for inquiry is present and, I believe, pressing: and I hope that inquiry will be pressed in the appropriate quarter independently and without being clouded over by emotion and prejudgment. Hon. J. RAE (Minister of Housing) - The member for Waitakere has said that he was rather disappointed but not surprised by the committee's recommendation. I think the majority of New Zealanders would not be surprised, and they would not be disappointed, but I am sure that those people who added their names to this petition will be very much disappointed; and I could probably add a considerable number to it. One cannot but be impressed with the status of the people who were prepared to put their names on the petition. They start from the highest office in the Churches and go through the professional groups, the lawyers, professors, school masters, scientists, and others. They were all people of some standing, and they brought a great mass of evidence in the form of written submissions and were prepared to answer all questions. I agree with the member for Waitakere and the member for Island Bay that the petitioners would have been wiser had they asked for further inquiry, and I think they should have been prepared to wait until the effect of the English legislation was known. The member for Waitakere said there has been a great deal of generalisation on this subject. I think that was in the mind of every member of the committee. Test areas of, say, 1,000 persons have been surveyed, but in my view the results obtained have not been as scientific as they might have been. The results were averaged over the total male population, and on that basis, and on the basis of what had been done in other countries, it was said that there were 40,000 to 50,000 homosexuals in New Zealand. A good deal of that sort of evidence was given to the committee, and anyone who would call it fully documented would not, I think, find the committee prepared to agree with him. There was evidence both for and against the petition, but the majority of those who gave evidence felt that the law should be changed. A number of medical and legal witnesses said they doubted whether that would serve any useful purpose, but I think the lawyer's opinion was that here was , a penalty against males and no penalty against females, who apparently indulge in acts of a somewhat similar nature. No one claimed that the practice would become any less frequent, but I think most claimed that it would not become any more frequent. That is the sort of fact that would have to be discovered, and that is why I think there should be further inquiry. After all, the Wolfenden report is a good many years old, and Britain got round to changing the law only last year. We do tend to follow Britain some years later, as the member for Waitakere said, although sometimes we are a bit ahead of Britain; but I am sure every member of the committee felt that there had to be a period of delay before we could really make up our minds on this sort of thing. We were told that there are some homosexuals who practise, and others who do not practise. No proportion was given to us, but if there are homosexuals who do not practice then I think it is pretty obvious that the law as it stands is a deterrent in this respect, just as it deters many from doing other criminal acts. We know there is a law to punish us if we do offend. It is said that these homosexuals are very unhappy people. I suppose that means they are worried, but all of us have lots of worries and have to face up to them. One of the facts that came out in evidence was that, both medically and otherwise, we were all seeking information as to whether treatment would be sought, and, if it were, whether it would result in cures. We had some evidence that in Britain, since the law was changed, more were seeking treatment - the maximum number given was 300– but there was evidence that fewer were seeking treatment. We had no way of discovering what the position was, but there seemed to be general agreement that treatment was not much good anyhow. I want the House to know that, while this petition sought to legalise homosexual acts between adult consenting males in private, it did not seek to absolve those under 21; they could still be brought before the court and punished. It was said that the purpose was to protect the young and try to cure them of their ways, but I think the law should also try to protect those not so young. However, we were concerned lest the change proposed should have any effect on youth, and of course, if an adult male homosexual has association with a person under 21, he would be punishable; that would remain the law. However, the important point is that better information should be obtained, and perhaps in the near future it can be obtained. It is possible that in days to come the law will be changed, but I am not prepared to support a change at this stage. This is a revolting act in the minds of what we term normal people, and the fact that so many intellectual people have given this matter so much thought, and have been prepared to come out publicly with their names and to associate themselves with this petition, means that we should give the matter more than the normal attention. However, on the evidence before us, I feel that the petition was premature, and that the public would share this view. I believe the Wolfenden report could be a subject for study, and I think that if any change in our law is contemplated we could well wait for a period before we followed the British Act of such recent origin. Motion agreed to.

IRN: 1254
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_crimes_amendment_bill_report_back_2_may_1975.html
TITLE: Crimes Amendment Bill - report of the Select Committee (2 May 1975)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 2 May 1975
YEAR: 1975
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 2 May 1975, New Zealand Parliament. Dr BASSETT (Waitemata) - I am directed by the Crimes Amendment Bill Committee to present the report of the committee on the Crimes Amendment Bill. The committee recommends that the Bill be allowed to proceed as amended. I move, That the report do lie upon the table. The Crimes Amendment Bill was introduced by the member for Egmont in July 1974. The Bill, which sought to make homosexual acts legal between consenting adult males in private, had a number of other clauses. These related to the crimes of keeping a place of resort for homosexual acts, living off the earnings of prostitution, and several other matters. It was agreed that the subject-matter of the Bill should be treated as one of individual conscience for members of Parliament, and accordingly a special committee was set up to invite submissions on the subject. This committee spent many hours taking submissions and deliberating. We received about 150 submissions, most of them written, and the committee met on 12 occasions to consider the submissions. After reading them the committee decided to limit the number of witnesses it had invited to attend in person to a broad cross section of those who had placed evidence before us. We had evidence from the New Zealand Psychological Society, the New Zealand Sociological Association, and the Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists. We had evidence from the New Zealand Association of Social Workers, the New Zealand Police Association, the New Zealand Student Christian Movement, the NZUSA, and also people actively engaged in the counselling of homosexuals. The committee had lengthy discussions with, and supplementary submissions from, representatives of Church groups, including most of the major Churches in New Zealand, and we also had much of one session devoted to submissions from the Society for the Promotion of Community Standards. Last, but by no means least, we had submissions from the Homosexual Law Reform Society, and from Gay Liberation Movement groups throughout the country. I think it can safely be said that every viewpoint on the subject of homosexuality was canvassed, and discussions, many of them very informative to members of the committee, were lengthy and useful. When it came to deliberation, the committee considered several alternative approaches to the Bill. One was that we restructure that part of the Crimes Act dealing with sexual offences so as to place homosexual and heterosexual activities on a similar footing when defining what was a crime and what the penalties attaching to those crimes should be. In the event, however, the committee deemed its terms of reference to be rather narrower than this, and it decided that it would deal only with the subject-matter of the Bill and with the best way of wording in law the sentiments expressed in the original Bill. After it had been decided that a majority of the committee agreed with the basic intention of the Bill, a restructuring of the Bill was undertaken with the assistance of certain people, principally Miss Patricia Webb, Mrs Lowe, and Mr Pike of the Department of Justice. The Bill now before us is the result of that restructuring. The first thing that will be noted is that not many of the words in the original Bill are included in precisely the same form in the Bill that is reported back. For instance, instead of leaving in the old clause 3, which was the main part of the original Bill, it was decided to restructure sections 141 and 142 of the Crimes Act so as to list those crimes that remained crimes, carefully deleting what had previously been in the Crimes Act - namely, that offences by consulting adult males over the age of 21 were offences. The committee agreed by a majority, with votes in favour coming from both sides of the House, that the Crimes Act should now make it legally permissible for homosexual acts to take place in private between consenting adult males over the age of 20. The old clause 4 has been deleted, and a new clause, amending section 147 of the Crimes Act, has been included relating to brothelkeeping. It will now be an offence for anyone to keep a brothel where prostitution between opposite sexes or among the same sex takes place. Having made this change to section 147 of the Act, the old section 146 of the Crimes Act becomes unnecessary, and it is proposed that it be repealed. Clauses 5 and 6 of the Bill introduced by the member for Egmont have been replaced by a new provision relating to procuring for reward, which remains an offence. Clause 7 of the original Bill stands part. A new clause has been introduced as a result of submissions from the Police Department and the Ministry of Defence, which will enable those forces to continue to take disciplinary action against homosexuality within the ranks, even though these acts may not be illegal in civil law. I should add that the committee was at few stages unanimous. The member for Porirua submitted a number of additional points that he wanted included in the Bill but which the majority of the committee rejected. The member for Stratford firmly opposed all moves to liberalise the present laws relating to homosexuality. At this point may I say that I personally was one of those who believed that the law needed to be changed at the point when the member for Egmont originally introduced his Bill. The evidence the committee received from the major Churches, with the exception of the Catholic Church - and the submissions from that Church were divided - plus the submissions we received from those who had been most directly involved from a counselling and psychological point of view with the problem of homosexuality, served only further to convince me that changes to the law along the lines proposed in this Bill were necessary. It seems to be essential that the House should debate the issues raised in the many submissions the committee received, and that members of Parliament be given the same full opportunity to debate this Bill as they had for discussion of the question of abortion. While some people may feel so strongly against the idea of liberalising the law as it relates to homosexuality that they wish not even to allow the committee to report back to the House, I think all members should ponder on what the public would feel about this institution of Parliament were we to deny the member for Egmont a second reading of his Bill and were we, summarily and without scrutiny of the thousands of pages of submissions made to the committee, to dismiss the many viewpoints contained therein. I ask that all members allow this report to be received and the matter to be debated at some later stage, when all members will be freely able to express their opinions and to vote accordingly. I am one who believes that the member for Egmont did this House a signal service when he introduced for discussion a matter which is being publicly debated. He has suffered as a consequence, and probably the only other member who would know what he has suffered in recent times would be the member for Porirua. We owe the member for Egmont the courtesy of a full debate on his Bill. In my opinion this Bill is long overdue. The weight of evidence the committee received reveals that there is a small minority of the community for whom homosexual acts are the only possible kind of sexual activity in which they find themselves able to engage. Psychiatrists and psychologists gave the committee reports that attempts to change the sexual inclinations of mature adults had been very unsuccessful. Therefore, to refuse to allow people who find themselves unable to engage in heterosexual acts to engage in acts they regard as normal would be to adopt a dog-in-the-manger attitude towards them, and I personally find that quite unacceptable. If one accepts, as I do, the stricture given by the Prime Minister of Canada, Mr Trudeau, that the State has no business to be prying into the bedrooms of the nation, then one can adopt no other stance than that reform of the law is essential. In closing, I wish to pay my sincere thanks to the members of the committee, and particularly to the member for Egmont, who worked very hard to achieve a satisfactory result to the deliberations on his Bill. Also, on behalf of the committee, I offer sincere thanks to Mr Bonifant and Mr Henry, the two committee secretaries on whom much work fell as a result of the committee's activities. Mr V. S. YOUNG (Egmont) - I want to deal with the main provisions in the Bill. I wish to re-emphasise though, that the provisions relating to brothelkeeping, prostitution, and procuring as they were in the original Bill, remain in the amended Bill strengthened. First may I pay a tribute to the chairman of the committee, the member for Waitemata, and the members of the committee who considered the Crimes Amendment Bill, particularly those who took part in the early stages before I was able to join the committee. The Bill as reported back to the House may appear to some to be almost rewritten. However, it contains in a different form the intent of the measure I introduced to the House almost 12 months ago. The major provision in the 1974 Bill remains intact - that is, that homosexual acts between consenting male adults in private be no longer criminal offences. The committee has amended the definition of an adult male for these purposes in the Bill from 21 years to 20 years. There remain, as there were in the original Bill, safeguards for the mentally ill against homosexual acts. Furthermore, the committee has included amendments sought by the Ministry of Defence and the Police Department which exclude, in certain circumstances, the major provision of the Bill - the removal of the criminal conviction from the Defence and Police establishments in certain cases. A similar if not identical provision was made in the 1968 legislation passed in the United Kingdom. My Bill has nothing to do with morality or with social values, but it has a great deal to do with persuading the community to adopt a better understanding of the plight of the homosexual in our community. The select committee was constantly questioned about the link between morality and the law. This Bill is to do with the law, and the laws of the country are for the protection of the community. They are to punish the offender and to deter him or others from committing crimes. Criminal laws, and their penalties also, have an implicit responsibility to rehabilitate the offender. In the case of the law against homosexual acts between consenting adult males in private, the law fails miserably. Where is protection provided? If there is consent between adults, who is protected? Only these acts would be legal under the amended measure, and this only applies where there is common consent. The punishment of imprisonment provided in the present Crimes Act, though it may be rarely applied, is, to say the least, illogical. The criminal law is to deter. To deter people from what? If the law is to deter, can it deter homosexuals from being the way they are? Every piece of responsible evidence given to the committee suggested either that homosexuals were born that way or that their condition was a result of their early environment. Punishment will hardly correct them. However, there is a desperate need for counselling. Rehabilitation is important, and again the present law fails. I believe the present criminal law prevents many homosexuals - who are not, as some will have us believe, the gay people in our community, but who are often sad, lonely, and distraught - from seeking counselling that would enable them to live more easily with their condition. The law, in those circumstances, fails. Almost all the submissions made to the committee by individuals and organisations who have to face the problems of homosexuals gave evidence in support of a change in the law. However, let me not try to persuade the House that the evidence given to the committee was one-sided; it was not. There was a great volume of evidence against the proposed amendments. But I make the point that those organisations and individuals who come face to face with the problems of the homosexual, almost without exception, gave evidence in support of a change in the law. These included the New Zealand Social Workers Association; the Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists; probation officers, lawyers, clergymen, and youth counsellors; the New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society; the New Zealand Police Association Officers Guild; the New Zealand Student Christian Movement; the Quaker movement; the New Zealand Sociological Association; the New Zealand Psychological Association; Father Donnelly, who is the senior lecturer in community health at the Auckland Medical School; and the New Zealand Probation Officers Association. Other evidence was given against the proposals, and members who were on the committee will be able to report to the House details of the evidence given against the proposals in my Bill. The Methodist Church supports a change in the law, and submissions were made on behalf of the Presbyterian Church in favour of a change. The public questions committee of the Anglican Church of the Province of New Zealand favoured a change in the law. Not every Church adopts this position. The Roman Catholic Church, although there were different points of view from within that Church, was officially against a change in the law. It was not on its own; several other Churches were also opposed. I questioned them on their submissions. I told them that the question I would ask was in no way a question to put them on a spot, but was a fair and most important one. I asked them: “If the law I am trying to have removed was not already on the statute book, would your Church be campaigning to have it placed there?” It is a question every member who does not support this Bill must ask himself. The only Church which said that it would seek the writing of such a law as it is in sections 140, 141, and 142 of the Crimes Act was an evangelical section of the Anglican Church. However, the Vicar-General representing the Roman Catholic Church stated subsequently that he thought the law should be the same for female homosexuals as it was for male homosexuals. Last year, at a meeting in Auckland, a woman of 60 years of age approached me. She had tears in her eyes and she said to me, “Thank you, Mr Young, for what you are doing for my son. He is a homosexual, but he does not know that I know this. His sister told me. But, Mr Young, he is not a criminal because he is living with another man.” This woman lived in constant fear that her son would be dragged before the court. This Bill, amended as it is, is a measure with humanitarian objectives. We are told by the Police Department that it is most difficult to obtain convictions for homosexual acts that are conducted in private, and with consent, by adult males. In fact, in many cases a blind eye is turned. This Bill will not make homosexual acts between consenting adult males socially acceptable. What it will do is bring more humanity and understanding from the community for the plight of a small sector of our people who are within our midst, whether we like it or not. In doing so, that sector may be saved some of the misery that is theirs today. Laws directed at male adult homosexuals are discriminatory, because they apply to only one sex. Fears of the negative consequences of repealing these laws are supported neither by logic nor by data. Proof of these consequences should lie on the shoulders of those who insist that a law that is not implemented should remain unchanged. Dr WALL (Porirua) - I express my sympathy with the member who has introduced this Bill. As has been mentioned earlier, I, along with other members of the House, am in a position to appreciate the turmoil he has been through. I also appreciate the tremendous integrity and toleration he has shown in the argument that has gone on, and the tremendous courage he has exhibited in standing up against the uninformed and prejudiced criticism that has come his way. The House should be proud that we have in our midst someone capable of exercising that tolerance, despite the pressures he has been under. This is the time to report what happened in the committee. As the chairman has stated, I advanced certain amendments, which were defeated by a majority vote, but other changes were made. The first change in the Bill is probably the most significant one, and the one that is of the greatest concern to me. This may set the tone and explain to the House better than anything else what was done in the committee. Let me read the last section of the preamble: “And whereas it is desirable to increase the protection afforded by the law to young persons against homosexual molestation.” That has been struck out, and I think it is most significant that the committee did this. I know that the member introducing the Bill wanted to see that this was done, but in the committee that, with the content behind it, was struck out. That is a matter of considerable concern to me and, I think, to every right-thinking person. I support the basic intent of this Bill - that private moral or immoral acts between consenting adults which do not of themselves have social significance should not be subject to punitive action by law. I support that, as I think every reasonable person would. But unfortunately, in the guise of ensuring that sort of protection to those individuals in their private capacity, a great deal more is being done. Considerable evidence was brought before the committee that it has not been done by chance, but is intentionally being done, and will undoubtedly affect the social structure of our community in the years ahead. It will considerably affect, and has already affected, the attitude of our young people in a way that cannot be healthy to this society. In order to achieve what the mover of this Bill wanted, I went along with him in its introduction, and I still do. But I do recommend to the House that it considers well the tenor of the amendments that the committee rejected. I think the House should, in the Committee stage of this Bill, be given the opportunity to bring in these amendments. I think it is right that in this report these amendments should be brought before the House so that individual members may consider them, and consider their function; because they do, in what I think is an effective and acceptable way, provide the protection that so many right-thinking, serious, and compassionate people in New Zealand want for the rising generation. An amendment I put forward was to the effect that it would be an offence under the Act to do anything or say anything to any person under the age of 20 years which would lead him to believe, or was intended to lead him to believe, that homosexual acts are normal. The rest of the amendments, and there are several, although I shall not deal with them at this stage in detail, are all resultant on that. We are not making moral judgments; we are not condemning the doubtful or probable decency or indecency of these acts or of any propaganda associated with them; but we are declaring effectively what society itself knows and has always accepted: that, no matter how compulsive the nature of the impulses that have forced people to act in this way, the acts, and the attitudes producing those acts, are abnormal. All I ask is that we as a House declare what society knows: that these acts are abnormal and that those who are engaged in trying to promote the attitude in our society that homosexual activity is like left-handedness, and has no more significance to the social structure of our society than left-handedness and righthandedness, should have their activities restricted. A considerable amount of evidence before the committee was, as members would naturally be aware, of a tremendously partisan nature, but I was concerned that the main proponents of this type of reform, who made certain publicly acknowledged representations along the narrow field which I accept, stated that the objectives of the dominating body in the Homosexual Law Reform Society extended away and beyond that field, although at this time they would not advance anything more than a limited objective because they knew they did not have the support of the respectable and responsible bodies who have so far supported them. However, they did state that they intended to go ahead and promote a very much more extensive activity. They intended not only to promote social acceptance, but also total equality between homosexual and heterosexual acts and approaches within our society, but they would not do it now because to do so would be to lose the facade of respectability and intellectual acceptance derived from the responsible people behind them. I think that should be recorded at this stage, because it was the tone of so much of the evidence that came before us. We saw a member of one of the medical bodies, who apparently gave us a totally dispassionate and informed professional opinion, shift back from the table and take his seat again as a member of probably one of the most partisan groups of the lot, the Homosexual Law Reform Society. That was the sort of difficulty we were faced with in sorting out the evidence. Personally, I found the most reliable evidence, particularly in the professional field, was not that put forward by the representatives at the committee, but that contained in the papers they brought forward - papers that had been written for objective scientific purposes. I think the contents of these papers should be brought out during the second reading debate. I ask at this stage that members acquaint themselves with the proposed amendments, and I shall make them available to all members. All those who are concerned not only with compassion for the homosexual, but also with the maintenance of good standards in our society, should have an opportunity of perusing these amendments before the next stage of the Bill. Hon. DAVID THOMSON (Stratford) - As members know, I opposed the introduction of this Bill. During the deliberations of the committee, as a member of the committee I advised other members that I would divide the committee and the House on this Bill at every opportunity. The Bill should proceed no further. I acknowledge the fact that the member for Egmont has been justified in introducing the Bill by the very substantial volume of evidence received and by the very great public interest in it that has been displayed. The fact that we heard 150 witnesses and sat for more than 6 months is complete justification for his action. The committee hearings were held in public by order of this House, and the evidence was given wide publicity so that members would be very well informed on what the evidence was and on prevailing attitudes. Therefore the argument of the member for Waitemata that members will not be in a position to make a decision now falls to the ground. Dr Bassett - I didn't say that. Hon. DAVID THOMSON. - Yes, indeed, the member for Waitemata endeavoured to draw an analogy between this issue and abortion, but the abortion Bill had not been referred to a select committee. We have had 6 months of public study of this Bill, and members are very well informed on the issue. I wish to make brief reference to the comments of the member for Porirua on the amendments he offered in the committee. One can appreciate his concern about the association of homosexuals and their advocacy of homosexual practice, but the problem is that his amendments would have done greater wrong by denying freedom of association for what would become lawful activities, and freedom of speech to advocates of lawful activities, and clearly the committee could not agree to that. I must express my regret that the member for Waitemata reported the evidence of church groups in a way designed to have members believe that only the Catholic Church was divided. The member for Egmont made it clear that all the churches were divided, and it would be quite improper to suggest that only the Catholic Church was divided. The chief characteristics of the evidence, it seemed to me, were a regrettable lack of scientific fact and a demonstrable need for research, which was acknowledged even by those most closely concerned with the problem. There was no shortage of concern from all groups, and the positions adopted by the witnesses were mostly subjective. But there was nothing to invalidate the view I have already expressed that indecent acts and sodomy should not be made lawful and therefore acquire a colour of right and propriety, The criminal law does not condemn a person's condition, but it does censure certain acts. Most members will feel concern for the pitiful condition of the homosexual in the same way that one feels concern for a person who is obsessed with a craving for drugs, and the same may well apply to those who are afflicted with ungovernable rages which lead them to break the criminal law and assault other people. The principal effect of the Bill as reported back will be to give a colour of right and propriety to indecent acts and sodomy by making such acts completely lawful when indulged in by consenting adults in private, but criminal and liable to 5 years' imprisonment in the case of indecency, or 7 or 14 years depending on sex in the case of sodomy, when indulged in by consenting minors between 16 and 20 years of age, whether committed with adults or with minors: and also criminal but excused from prosecution where indulged in by a consenting boy under 16 years of age except where the other consenting party is a minor. Many people are suffering under a misapprehension. The criminal law lays down penalties in these sections, but it does not say that a convicted person must be sent to prison. There is no minimum penalty. There is not even any guidance, as there is in the Narcotics Act, which states that imprisonment should be considered except in certain cases. Mr McKenzie, the director of research for the Department of Justice, wrote in an article for a New Zealand Medical Journal special number in 1967 that at that time a study showed that no homosexual inmate was serving a sentence for offences against adults alone. As I have already told the House, I am very concerned with the growth of permissiveness and the effects of that not only on the community as a whole but also on individuals within the community, because the criminal law must protect not only the community but the individual as well. It can be of great assistance to individuals in its warnings. It is a fence at the top of a precipitous cliff. I am very concerned over the considerable growth in venereal disease. Evidence has been tendered that a great deal of the spread of venereal disease is due to homosexual acts. Indeed, studies in Britain have shown that 42. 4 percent of primary and secondary syphilis infections were transmitted homosexually. Evidence from the Deputy Director of Epidemiology in New South Wales, Dr Lopus, revealed that it is his estimate that as much as 70 percent of syphilis is transmitted homosexually in a big city such as Sydney. This is not a subject where we can allow our emotions to run away with such facts as we do have, because the facts are alarming. I am quite certain that members are adequately informed, and certainly very concerned, not merely with those who have a homosexual condition, but with every individual in the community and with the whole community at large. We must divide on this Bill at every opportunity, and I urge members not to allow the Bill to proceed any further. Hon. Dr A. M. FINLAY (Minister of Justice) - I intended to participate only to a very small degree in this debate at this stage, which I think is the proper way to do it because normally we do not debate at great length the reporting back of a committee. Virtually all that needs to be said has already been said. My general attitude to the Bill when it was introduced was to support it in principle. I still support it, and I do so in full now, because I think it is an improved Bill as a result of the proceedings of the committee. I can understand the firm opposition entertained by the member for Stratford to the Bill and every part of it, and of course I respect that; but I do think it is unacceptably intolerant to ask the House to strike it down at this stage without members having the opportunity to consider it and to hear in more detail the very voluminous evidence given to the committee. Each of us has in his sion four large folders of evidence which I must reread, some of which no doubt will be summarised to the House at the appropriate time during the second reading debate. The House is entitled to know more of what went on in the committee, and it is much too facile to say that because the committee was open to the news media the resulting publicity was adequate to enable members to make a fully informed judgment. Some proceedings were reported, but, of course, all could not be, and, in particular, many of the exchanges that took place between some members and witnesses were not reported because, as is the normal custom, the press reporters were interested in the written submissions and did not have time to stay for the whole proceedings. Hon. L. R. Adams-Schneider - We've all been bombarded with correspondence. Hon. Dr A. M. FINLAY - Yes, we have all had a great deal of correspondence, but it is not necessarily informed. It seems to have the mark of prejudice, rather than careful study and information, on both sides. So I think it is appropriate that the matter should proceed. I compliment the member for Waitemata on his chairmanship of the committee. It was a difficult assignment, with a situation that could readily have got out of hand. He showed a mastery of the whole proceedings which I think is worth drawing to the attention of the House. He handled witnesses whose views were very different from his own, and dealt with very controversial material with a great deal of courtesy and aplomb, and I am sure everyone who attended went away feeling he had had a good hearing with every opportunity to say what he wanted to say. Some of the questioning that took place was most revealing and informative. In the course of his remarks the member for Waitemata paid a tribute, and was generous indeed, but no more than appropriately generous, to the member for Egmont for his courage and initiative in introducing the Bill, and I want to endorse that. Unfortunately, owing to other committees sitting concurrently, I was unable to be present at all the meetings, but of course I studied the evidence and will do so again. I want to deal with only one point, that made by the member for Porirua, who spoke of some amendments he moved which were not acceptable to the majority on the committee. He mentioned the substance of some of them. He spoke of the danger of homosexual molestation, which is referred to in the preamble now dropped from the Bill. I believe that the danger is exaggerated. I know there is a danger of sexual molestation, but I do not think it is any greater from a homosexual quarter than it is from a heterosexual quarter. We are not exposing young people to any greater danger by this step than the one to which they are already exposed at the hands of the more customary and socially accepted form of sexual expression through heterosexual avenues. I also believe that the fears expressed by the member for Porirua to the committee, and repeated in this House, are exaggerated. He spoke of the main content of one of his amendments, which was to the effect that it should be made illegal to do anything or say anything to any person under the age of 20 which would lead him to believe, or was intended to lead him to believe, that homosexual acts were normal. Quite apart from the difficulty of defining and applying that elusive word “normal” for anything other than mere statistical purposes, there remains the indisputable fact that for some individuals homosexual behaviour is, in fact, normal. To pretend otherwise is to delude ourselves. If we made it against the law to refer to something which indeed exists in the makeup and personality of certain individuals, and which on the evidence seems to be ineradicable, then we would be doing something which would be hard to apply and very wrong to try to apply. The difficulties of giving effect to the views put forward by the member for Porirua were so daunting that I concluded it was a mistake to try to go further with them. He will inform the House of the other amendments he wanted to have adopted. All I shall say is that we did have a long discussion of them, and were dissuaded from carrying them further by the wide-ranging terms of section 66 of the Crimes Act as it now stands, which makes a party to an offence not only the actual offender but also anyone who does or omits any act for the purpose of aiding any person to commit the offence, or who abets any person in the commission of an offence, or - and this is the very wideranging one - “incites, counsels, or procures any person to commit the offence”. We came to the conclusion that that was sufficiently widely stated to cover virtually, if not entirely, all the people whose activities the member for Porirua wanted to see forbidden in the remaining amendments he moved, which were rejected by the majority of the committee. It is most desirable that we should proceed to a full second reading debate, which I hope will be an informative and enlightened one, with no giving way to prejudice on either side. Mr LUXTON (Piako) - The Crimes Amendment Bill has been very difficult legislation to deal with, and I should like to congratulate the member for Waitemata, who chaired the select committee under very difficult circumstances. The member for Egmont introduced the measure because he had real feelings about the legislation. I believe that we should receive the report of the committee and that the matter should be discussed further in the House. The select committee was composed of members who had quite clearly made up their minds. The member for Stratford has already indicated that he knew where he stood, and I do not believe that any amount of evidence, no matter how strong, would have changed his mind. Other members of the committee felt it was time for a change. I came into a third category. I was prepared to listen to the evidence, to weigh it up, and to make a decision that would satisfy my conscience. The weight of evidence clearly demonstrated the support for the proposal to change the Crimes Act in the way the legislation is now drafted. Many of those who came before the select committee felt that the proposed legislation did not go far enough. There will be a free vote on this issue. It would be easy for every member to decide to vote against the Bill and not believe we have such a problem in our society. Such a decision will be acceptable to constituents, because about 98 percent of them are normally heterosexual in character. For that reason, members will vote in a popular way. But there is a deeper issue, and each member as an individual has to think of that small section of our community who, in my opinion, are handicapped as far as heterosexual relationships are concerned. I do not, and cannot, accept the idea that homosexual acts between consenting adults are normal. I regard this very small percentage of our people as being sexually handicapped, and, as such they need all the compassion and understanding the massive majority of the normal heterosexual community can muster. Over a long period our attitudes have changed towards all handicapped members of our community. The committee of the Presbyterian Church of New Zealand indicated my feelings on the matter, and I should like to quote from its submissions: “There is concern within the Church at claims that homosexuality is regarded as a normal sexual condition. The 1974 Assembly declared that homosexual practices are contrary to the will of God and should not be regarded as normal. The Church sees a real need for society to assist those subject to homosexual tendencies to cope with such tendencies and to develop, if possible, towards normal heterosexual orientation. The Church envisages the possibility of appropriate treatment centres rather than prisons for those for whom homosexuality is a problem.” I believe that with the passing of this Act, such treatment or counselling centres could be established. As legislators we must ask ourselves whether we are prepared to see the Crimes Act administered by the police in the way that the law states at present. If we are not, is it proper to have law on the statute book that we have no intention of enforcing? If we feel the Act should be enforced, are we prepared to provide the prisons for the numbers involved? A British Medical Association pamphlet suggests that the proportion of homosexuals is 1:25 among men and 1:45 among women. I believe that this figure is too high. Expert witnesses informed the committee that homosexuality is not a matter of choice, that it is not an illness, that it is not hereditary, but that it is the result of influences and relationships at a very early age. I should like to ask this question: if this Bill is not passed, would any member be p to introduce a Bill which would provide that homosexual acts between females, commonly known as lesbians, would be an offence, as it is now for males? I think the Bill could be strengthened. I have some sympathy for the feelings held by the member for Porirua about homosexual acts. There are many issues in our society that we do not support. As a Christian, I certainly do not support adultery, or other similar actions. As legislators, we are not prepared to have these acts considered as crimes. I believe the House should allow the Bill to have a second reading, and that is where I stand. Dr BASSETT (Waitemata) - I want briefly to thank members for their comments. The member who introduced the spoke well, I thought, of efforts that had been made to help with rehabilitation, and their not very great success. He also expressed the opinion that the way to help someone who was born a homosexual or someone who was influenced to become one in early life was not to punish that person but to attempt to aid him to adjust to what most, if not all, homosexuals would probably regard as a misfortune not of their own making. I agree, too, that this House needs at times to show some compassion for individual people with problems of social adjustment, and this Bill is an attempt to do that. The member for Porirua saw great significance in the striking out of the preamble to the original Bill. I must say I do not recall his opposing the removal of the preamble, although he may have done so. I do not think it is appropriate to suggest that there was some sinister motive behind the taking out of the preamble, because the committee was determined, I think, to see that young people who might be able to be influenced adversely could not be influenced adversely as a result of anything it did. I think that the suggestions made by the member for Porirua-the suggested submissions, and the additional amendments he moved in the committee, and also the comments by the Department of Justice on those suggestions - should be made public. In this connection, I think it should be mentioned that the Department of Justice made the comment that it was strongly of the view that if the price of reform was the creation of such offences as the member was suggesting, it would be wiser to abandon altogether the idea of reform. I must say that I agree with that. There are far too many dangers in some of the suggestions made by the member for Porirua, and I hope that members will consider them very carefully before adopting them. The speech by the member for Stratford, was, I thought, predictable. His version of the evidence that was given must be treated as his and his alone. I think one should counsel against any suggestion that the reporting back of this Bill should be rejected. I suggest that people could have a very bad view of this House if, having charged a committee with the task of hearing submissions on a matter, and the committee having carried out that task, the House then refused to receive back - sight unseen, really - the voluminous findings and feeling of the members of that committee. It would bring odium on this House if it were to refuse to receive back the opinions of the people who had been charged with the responsibility of performing a task for the House. Finally, let me say that I found the speech of the member for Piako perhaps the most moving of all the speeches this morning. He alone, I think, had a genuinely open mind when the committee met, and he has given the House this morning some of his feelings as a result of hearing the submissions. This House must respect his Opinions. The House divided on the question, That the motion be agreed to. Ayes, 52 Arthur; Bailey; Barclay, B. G.; Barclay, R. M.; Batchelor; Begg; Birch; Burke; Colman; Comber; Davey; Douglas, N. V.; Downie; Faulkner; Finlay; Freer; Gordon; Harrison; Highet; Holyoake; Hunt; Isbey; Jack; Jelicich; King; Luxton; MacDonell; McGuigan; McLachlan; Marshall, C. R.; May; Mayson; Moore; Moyle; Muldoon; Munro; O'Brien; O'Flynn; Rata; Ridley; Rogers; Schultz; Smith; Talboys; Tirikatene-Sullivan; Tizard; Walding; Wall; Williams; Young, T. J. Tellers: Bassett; Young, V. S. Noes, 17 Allen, K. R.; Allen, P. B.; Brooks; Carter; Connelly; Drayton; Gill; Kirk; Lapwood; McCready; Marshall, J. R.; Sloane; Talbot; Walker; Young, W. L. Tellers: AdamsSchneider; Thomson. Majority for, 35. Motion agreed to. Hon. R. D. MULDOON (Leader of the Opposition) - A point of order, Mr Speaker. Will the Acting Prime Minister tell us whether, if this Bill is given a second reading, it is the Government's intention to bring in, as was done in the case of the Hospitals Amendment Bill, a Governor-General's Message, thus enabling this Bill to proceed. Hon. R. J. TIZARD (Acting Prime Minister) - No, that would not be done at this stage. We have made a decision to handle it in the same way as the other Bill.

IRN: 1253
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_crimes_amendment_bill_second_reading_4_july_1975.html
TITLE: Crimes Amendment Bill - second reading continued (4 July 1975)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 4 July 1975
YEAR: 1975
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 4 July 1975, New Zealand Parliament. Hon. L. W. GANDAR (Ruahine) - At the adjournment last night I had outlined the four reasons why I consider this Bill should be supported. What we have been debating is not whether homosexuality is something that should be recognised or condoned, but a Crimes Amendment Bill which sets out certain homosexual acts as being contrary to the law. This point should be emphasised. As a heterosexual male I do not find it easy to comprehend homosexuals or what generates homosexuality. However, I do know that it exists, and therefore I am compelled to examine the place of the homosexual in our society. I have been immensely influenced by a paper given by a leading child psychiatrist in this country in which he stated that some surveys of psychiatric opinion show that approximately two-thirds of psychiatrists regard homosexuality as being either a neurotic symptom or an inversion of normal development, approximately one-third see it as a normal variant like left-handedness, and a very small percentage see it as a disease - the point being that there are identifiable periods in the life of a person where these tendencies can in fact develop. While ordinary homosexual males are similar to heterosexual males in the prevalence of certain phobias - anxiety neuroses, psychosomatic symptoms, and depression - there is very strong evidence to show that there is a definite increase in suicide attempts, alcohol abuse, and moodaltering drug abuse. So long as the law makes it impossible for these people to obtain some assistance, then in my view we are not helping them to come to terms with things over which they have not entirely had control. This psychiatrist goes on to say: “One significant difference is that more homosexuals than heterosexuals lose at least one parent before the age of 10. Other tendencies are for the male homosexual to have had a dominating, overprotective, and basically male-hostile mother who has openly preferred her son to her husband. In addition, there has been a tendency towards a weak, absent, or affectionless father - sometimes a very assaultative father.” Those factors are not the fault of that young child. Then there is one other point to which I would draw the attention of the House. In this report the psychiatrist says: “As regards therapy, homosexuals do not readily come to treatment, they come less readily when the law makes it impossible for them to do so.” I shall conclude by making reference to the publication Crime in New Zealand, which quotes Sir Hugh Linstead, a member of the Wolfenden committee and a member of the British House of Commons, who in far better words than I could use gave a very cogent summary of the argument for changing the law: “There are two courses open to the community, and the question we have to answer is, by which of these two courses is morality better served? The first course is to make no change. If we make no change, then we are acquiescing in the continuance of a capriciously enforced Act of Parliament” - and the same thing applies in this country. “We are acquiescing in a deep divergency in judicial opinion” - and I am sure that this also applies in New Zealand. “We are acquiescing in a different treatment before the law for the homosexual as compared with other sexual offenders such as adulterers, fornicators, lesbians, and so forth. The alternative choice is to recogmise that this is a moral and not a legal question, and to let it be dealt with by social and moral sanctions of public opinion.” Mr O’BRIEN (Island Bay) - I congratulate the member for Egmont on his courage in introducing this measure which is long overdue. He was deeply convinced of the need for change and he has gone to great lengths, at great personal hardship, to advance his particular view. Like my colleagues the member for Porirua and the member for Waitemata, among others, I support the intention of the Bill, although not necessarily every detail of it, as reported back from the select committee. The House is indebted to the chairman of the committee, my colleague the member for Waitemata, for the manner in which he very judiciously conducted the committee's hearings on this Bill, and for the dignity he leant to that particular office and to the House itself in approaching this question. We are also indebted to my colleague the member for Porirua for a rather erudite statement on some fundamental facts last night, although there may be some areas where some members, and I too, would not agree with him. The member for East Coast Bays spoke of humility in approaching this question. Members of the House have all appeared to approach this subject in that spirit, which is exactly the right approach, because really we are dealing in human lives. There are no doubt deep divisions among thinking people, intelligent people, and sincere people, and their views I respect, as does everybody in this House; but I hope that those people will also respect those who, for a variety of reasons, differed from them. As the member for Ruahine said, the question is simply whether homosexual conduct between consenting adults in private should be freed from legal constraint; it is not a question of whether it should be freed from moral constraint. The case for this justice has been proved and I will not restate it. It is not a question of faith or morals but, as Rolland O’Regan wisely said, “one of social and legal policy”. We have to differentiate between the moral law and the criminal law. While of course I am concerned, I would hesitate to speak on morality in this Chamber. There are authorities who can do that well, and do do it well, but in viewing the criminal law on this matter I find the sum of human wreckage that it creates is one that is morally hard to defend. In that sense I would use the argument for morality in this Chamber. We are not talking about normality or abnormality, or what is natural or what is unnatural. These are relative terms and relate to the norm. If those who are biologically homosexual are in a minority, their state is clearly, in logic, abnormal by the social measure of the norm. It is only in that respect that I would concede that their condition is abnormal. Change in the law, as evidence from the departments concerned made crystal clear, will not in any respect affect the actual number of homosexual acts committed in New Zealand, nor will change in the law affect the heterosexual, or direct adolescent sexual experiences into channels not biologically natural to the individual. No change in the law can make anyone homosexual. Neither can legal proscriptions change the homosexual. Only a change in biological laws can bring change. It is not a legal condition; it is a biological state. The state of homosexuality has nothing to do with morality; only its practice is in that sphere. Neither is the state of homosexuality illegal or criminal in itself, but only its practice. Evidence given to the committee tended to support the biological argument. We were told that hormone differences are detectable, and that physical characteristics are readily discernible. Change aimed at redirecting sexual drive cannot be legislated, and its desirability is also suspect. That is the point I wanted to make. I am not talking about child molestation - paedophilia - nor about kleptomania, necrophilia, or other forms of aberrant sexuality which have a victim. I suppose these could be classified as perversions, but even that is a loose use of the word. They are perversions - if we use that term - which, for social reasons, demand legal proscriptions that accord protection through social retribution. But the paedophiliac, the necrophiliac, and the kleptomaniac are not homosexuals and are thus not affected one way or the other by the proposed change in the law before us, notwithstanding the clouds of smoke that went up trying to induce the committee to look in other directions. I cannot accept, either, that homosexuals are sick or ill, yet many who hold that view want to see homosexuals sent to prison. Under the logic of those people, the sick are to be treated by a course of imprisonment. I wonder if this foreshadows the day when people will be dashing up to Mount Crawford to have their appendix out? Prison as a form of treatment has to be ruled out. If treatment simply means counselling, it is good, but if treatment itself constitutes a warping of a person's inherent sexual proclivities - which specialists conducting socalled treatment freely admitted was the psychological intent - then that treatment is unnatural, grotesque, and might well be considered immoral. It takes the form of Pavlov-conditioning of a human being. Expert opinion was, as to be expected, practically unanimous on the need to lift the legal proscription. It was also unanimous that if the legal proscription is lifted there is unlikely to be a sudden conversion of all the biologically heterosexual 96 percent of the population. I cannot believe that our country is harbouring many hundreds of thousands of latent homosexuals just awaiting a change in the law. It is pertinent to observe also that the change in the law does not make homosexual conduct compulsory. I am opposed to society's demand for imprisonment because I find it neither virtuous nor compassionate. The alternative might well be a life of total continence. Be that as it may, it then becomes a social proscription or a matter of individual conscience, and that is what I have always held it should be. I have long felt that prison, even in Paremoremo's new decorative pastel shades, tends to substitute psychological for physical brutality. Even the brutal ancient Romans never incarcerated people for a punishment. Imprisonment leaves permanent scars, and in most cases degrades and does not elevate or generate social rebirth or achieve so-called rehabilitation. It achieves these least of all when the prisoner, the victim in those cases where consenting adults are concerned, feels imprisonment itself is a grave injustice committed against him. It seems to be a question of justice versus the law. The law declares homosexual practice by males to be illegal and punishable, but declares homosexual practice by females not to be illegal, and thus unpunishable. In this comparison the law fares badly. It cannot be both ambivalent and just. If it is one, it is not the other. The law does not make adultery an offence, yet it is far more socially destructive than homosexuality. The law's intrusion in matters of conscience elevates the courts to a level of authority which intrudes as a judge or arbiter on individual conscience. On the moral front, Bishop Mackey indicated that the Catholic bishops favoured law reform but were fearful of a decline in moral standards. It is well for them to sound such an alarm just as they constantly warn on the state of morality generally. But, as Bishop Mackey says, the bishops favoured reform. I draw the attention of the House to the fact that Cardinal Heenan, Archbishop of Westminster, established in the United Kingdom, at the time of Wolfenden, a committee to consider these matters. The committee consisted of a professor of moral theology, a parish priest, a Queen's Counsel, a doctor of medicine specialising in psychiatry, a psychiatric sociologist, and a welfare officer, and met under the chairmanship of the monsignor who is chaplain of London University. This committee was unanimous in its recommendations, the principal one of which is sought to be enshrined in the Bill before the House at present. As only two churches made submissions to the Wolfenden commission - the Catholic Church and the Anglican Church - their weight was significant in that committee's final report, and Sir John Wolfenden himself gave due weight to this fact. It may be significant to comment that in countries with a strong Catholic tradition there is no such law as that which we are being asked to reform here today, and I quote Spain and Italy as two outstanding examples. I have approached this issue bearing in mind the parable of the publican and the Pharisee and have tried to judge by the standards inherent in that parable. There were times in the committee when I was awed by a veritable sanhedrin of Pharisees who, whilst doling out compassion and love, also wanted imprisonment doled out at the same time. Their holier-than-thou attitude struck me again as grotesque and unchristian. I cannot accept that the exercise of the virtue of compassion requires commitment of the recipient of that compassion to imprisonment. In conclusion, could I just quote an editorial from the Zealandia of 4 August 1974: “Homosexuality is not solved or eased by a punitive law arbitrary in its application and fraught with difficulties in its enforcement. In fact, the Christian gospel has always required that human sexuality, whatever way it be channelled and expressed, is seen as the language of selfless committed love, a God-given gift which makes sense only when seen in those terms. This is a level which no legal sanctions can ever guarantee, for it involves an empowering grace which no law can claim to confer.” Mr TALBOT (South Canterbury) - Unlike the member for Kapiti, who spoke last night, I have no difficulty in making up my mind how to vote on this Bill. I cannot support it, and I sincerely hope that Parliament will take a stand and not vote for it. I believe it is dangerous to alter one law without considering the consequences of many others. This caution, I believe, is particularly pertinent since a move for a change in the law of homosexuality is only one of a series sought by many permissive groups in our society. The network of change of these groups also includes the abolition of religious education in schools, easier abortion, removal of censorship or control of pornography, easy divorce, permissive laws on soft drugs, and even the introduction of euthanasia. I would ask those who support the change on homosexuality to consider whether they want this package deal. To make homosexual practices in private legal would be, in most people's eyes, to make them right. At this point we can only guess what the long-term effects would be, but it is possible they would be harmful. The change currently sought may, to many, sound reasonable enough, but it would be naive to suppose that the demand would stop there. In Britain, for instance, there are now moves to lower the age of consent. It follows logically that if homosexuality is presented as natural and harmless there would be increasing pressure for further acceptance, and in fact there would be, in consequence, less and less incentive to seek help, but more and more inducement to involve young people in their formative years. Moreover, there would be pressures to institutionalise relationships by formal marriage, and contracts and so on. The evidence from history indicates that widespread acceptance of homosexuality has been found in civilisations going into decline. This evidence does not show how the chain of events operates, but the implications of the link must be considered very seriously. I have presented all these arguments without drawing on the underlying moral question - that is, the Christian condemnation of homosexual acts as wrong. Some would see this argument as the most compelling; others would reject it as irrelevant. Regardless of conviction on this, these other considerations make it clear that the issue is in fact much more complex than is popularly suggested. Even if one accepts the proposition that it is not the function of the law to maintain moral standards, this does not mean that one therefore rejects the moral argument. Those prepared to accept the proposition that homosexual acts are immoral must also ask themselves whether a change in the law to permit immoral acts would be a good law. Even though the law might not enforce morality, it should be consistent with our accepted moral standards. This I believe most strongly if our present society as we know it is to survive. To adopt the British law would be, I believe, a weak move. It would be to try to deal with the problem by giving in instead of accepting responsibility for legislation that will strengthen society and help individuals to a healthy adjustment. It would be to condemn them to their state of maladjustment with no encouragement to change - and this is not compassion. It would be to trade a short-term solution for a long-term problem. I believe that a wise law should recognise the roots of homosexuality and strive towards prevention, and a wise law would seek to ensure that those who want help get it. The solution to a law which is seen to be abused is to frame a better one, not to sidestep the issue altogether. The proposed changes could solve some of the practical problems, but perhaps they could also lay the foundations for even bigger ones than we have at present. Furthermore, there is now overwhelming evidence that the key to the problem of homosexuality lies in a disturbed pattern of family relations. It is said that a nation is only as strong as its families, and we must remember that. The present need is for preventive measures at the level of family living. In the meantime, the needs of homosexuals should be explored with all compassion, to seek ways in which they can find a satisfactory adjustment. It is definitely not clear that this can be done within the framework of this proposed legislation. I therefore cannot support the Bill. Mr LANEY (Oamaru) - A feature of this debate so far has been a tendency for the supporters of the Bill to base their support on what other countries have done and on the opinion of so-called experts as expressed in articles and surveys, which have been freely quoted. In opposing the Bill I do not intend to follow that course. I can see no need for the Bill, nor can I see any reason for its introduction into this House. I do not say that there is no problem. There is a problem, but, as I see it, it is being contained and generally treated with sympathy. We will not solve the problem by enacting legislation which is a step towards recognising homosexuality as something that is normal. I cannot accept that. Part of my education was the acquisition of a knowledge of the facts of life, including the biological and physiological facts so far as living things are concerned, and that included a knowledge of the processes of reproduction - that living things are equipped with organs especially designed for this purpose, male and female, different but complimentary. Normal behaviour is based on the correct use of those organs, and departure from the correct use is an abuse or a deviation. Homosexual behaviour is one, and should be regarded as such. It would appear, however, that there is a period in the early development of the human being when he or she is more susceptible to pressures causing them to deviate from the normal, in particular so far as sex behaviour is concerned. Our task is to ensure that young people are guided safely through that period and given a reasonable chance to proceed to a normal way of life. I believe that the passage of this Bill will, in effect, condone the practice of homosexuality as something which is accepted, is given an appearance of respectability, and may even be regarded as normal. Under such circumstances the incidence of homosexual behaviour will increase, and what is now a small problem able to be contained and dealt with sympathetically will become a mighty big and uncontrollable one. Today we are concerned at the increase in the incidence of juvenile crime, at the increase in the incidence of teenage pregnancies, particularly among very young girls, and at the increase in the incidence of alcoholism among young people; and it is no credit to this country that in one of our psychiatric hospitals the percentage of alcoholism is very greatest among people under 25 years of age. There is also an increase in the incidence of defiance of authority by juveniles. These problems have always been with us but under reasonable control, a small problem which went out of control when The Little Red Book was let loose among the young people of this country. A great many people expressed concern at the time as to what might happen when it was allowed to circulate freely. Some of those approached the Prime Minister of the day, who said that if it were left alone it would soon be forgotten. It was not left alone, and what was once a little problem under control became an avalanche the consequences of which are bad enough now but are yet to be fully realised. The passage of this Bill would give a further boost to the wave of permissiveness, would broaden its scope, and would be a threat to the moral and general well-being of the young people of this country, and thus a threat to the future of a stable society. I am convinced there are other ways to deal with this problem. I oppose the Bill. Mr WILKINSON (Rodney) - First, I would like to join with my colleagues in expressing my deep respect to the member for Egmont for his courage and sincerity in introducing this Bill, and for withstanding all the prejudice and all the pressures that the measure has provoked. His constancy under fire and his tolerance of opposing views have definitely been an inspiration to us all. I must, however, take issue on several points he made in moving the second reading of the Bill. First, I take up the argument that it is not the function of the law to enter the field of morals. This is a statement which has been widely coined in the course of this and other recent major moral controversies in this country, but in fact there is no country, no society, without its moral code, its taboos, and its own values backed by legal as well as moral sanctions. There is no country in the world that does not recognise that at a certain stage the State must step in with legal sanctions to regulate sexual behaviour, and the difference between the so-called conservative and the so-called liberal countries is merely one of degree. This is well illustrated by the fact that this Bill itself does not hesitate to impose legal sanctions in the case of indecent acts performed on minors and mental defectives, acts performed under threat of violence, and the like. So let us disabuse ourselves of the idea that it is not a proper role of the law to proscribe sexual behaviour to a greater or lesser degree. It is not on this argument, however, that I rest my case. Next I take issue with the assertion that the burden of proof should be on those opposed to the change in the law. I use the word “assertion” advisedly, because no satisfactory argument was adduced in support of this. In my view the onus is on the reformers. The member for Egmont said that from tomorrow - if this Bill is passed into law - it would “not be illegal” to perform sodomy and indecent acts between consenting adult males. In thus choosing his words so carefully he was obviously wanting to dissociate himself from a position of appearing to condone the acts. I cannot see, and he did not show, how the removal of the legal sanctions with respect to these acts can fail to be seen by many people - particularly those who are vulnerable because they are immature - as the State condoning these acts. I cannot regard these acts as normal, and they are not rendered normal by the State being seen to condone them. I come now to the viewpoint expressed by some speakers that homosexual behaviour cannot be condoned but should not be treated as criminal. I do not attribute great weight to this attitude. After all, what are criminal acts? They are simply acts the State decides must be treated as crimes - nothing more and nothing less. We need produce no other reason for justifying the treating of homosexual acts as crimes beyond showing they are harmful to society. It was Thoreau who reminded us that many people lead lives of “quiet desperation”. I am quite ready to believe that many homosexuals lead lives of quiet desperation, and that there are very strong compassionate grounds for protecting many of them from prosecution, and particularly from jail. But compassion alone is not a sufficiently strong factor to weigh against the arguments in favour of retaining the law as it is. I am ready to accept the assurance of the member for West Coast that the existing laws against homosexuals are used very sparingly and that no more than a handful of known homosexuals are ever prosecuted. Much more to the point in my opinion, however, is the fact - never stressed, and hardly ever mentioned in all the long-drawn-out controversy on homosexual law reform - that even when homosexuals are prosecuted they do not, under the law as it stands, have to go to jail. There are other courses of action more humane and more relevant to the needs of the accused that are already open to the courts under the existing law. What about the position regarding those who actually go to jail? I have just been given figures put out by the Department of Justice which show that in 1971 only 29 males were received in prison for homosexual offences. In 1972 the figure was 26, and in 1973 it was 30. So the extent to which jail is resorted to is far less than many people realise. My assessment, after many months of sounding out the opinion of ordinary average New Zealanders in my own electorate and up and down the country, is that this Bill, if passed, would be foisted on our community against the wishes of a significant majority, notwithstanding the submissions from many reform groups who are naturally more ready to come forward than those who want the law retained. This fact has very important consequences. Take, for example, the case of blackmail, so often brought up as an argument to justify reform. If we remove the legal sanction one motive for blackmail is removed, but the social sanction would, in my opinion, remain extremely strong and persuasive. A major motive for blackmail remains so long as a strong social stigma continues. We are a conservative country when it come to morals. It is no good trying to pretend that we are not. It is no good liberal reformers saying we should not be. The homosexual who leads a life of quiet desperation is fooling himself if he thinks that the removal of the legal sanction will change people's attitudes. If he is convinced of the rightness of his cause he must do a much more convincing job on public opinion than he has to date. If he forces a change in the law now, he is almost certain to find social acceptance as far away as ever, and perhaps even further away. Before concluding I want to come to one or two miscellaneous items that have been raised at one time or another in the course of this controversy. First, there has been a great deal made of the fact that several overseas legislatures have passed homosexual law reform measures. In fact, in countries comprising about five-sixths of the world's population prohibition on homosexual acts is retained. Next, much has been made of the fact that many people are born homosexuals and cannot be cured. The onus is on the proponents of reform to prove this, and they have certainly not done so to my satisfaction. In fact, there is weighty evidence to the contrary. For example, Dr Court, senior lecturer in clinical psychology at Flinders University, South Australia, and an honorary consultant psychologist for the Australian Mental Health Service, says it appears safe to agree with Professor James's paper of 1970. Professor James, who is professor of psychiatry at the Otago medical school, said: “There is now little support for the notion that homosexuality has a predominantly inherited basis.” The evidence regarding endocrine abnormalities receives little support at this time. Psychological factors have the greatest weight of evidence in their favour at the present time, and there is much to suggest that the forces at work arise from parental interaction. So in fact there is weighty evidence to the contrary. Another important argument raised against the Bill is that once homosexual acts are legalised for males of the age of 20 and over the pressure will shift to increasingly lowering the age of consent, and that people who favour legalisation in the case of males over 20, but would not accept it in the case of males where the age of consent is 16, had better think very carefully about taking the first step. Judging from trends overseas, it would no doubt be very difficult to restrict the age of consent once the first crucial step towards legalisation has been taken. I oppose the second reading of this Bill. Mrs BATCHELOR (Avon) - I rise to support the Bill, and I join with others in this Chamber who have commended the member for Egmont for his courage in bringing to our notice a problem that is of concern perhaps to only a small minority group. Nevertheless, we must concern ourselves as much with minorities as we do with majorities. I support the Bill mainly because it gives to consenting adult males the right to privacy in their personal relationship, and I believe every individual should have that right. The Bill will allow them to have their personal relationship without fear of criminal proceedings being taken against them. I do not believe that the Bill will in any way change the attitudes of society to the homosexual. The intolerance of humanity towards those who do not conform will still be there. We seem to surround ourselves with hypocrisy when it comes to our attitudes towards sex, but I hope we will not legislate according to our moral repugnance or otherwise on an issue that affects so many people. It has been suggested by previous speakers that the State cannot be kept out of the bedrooms of the nation, and that if it is kept out, those bedrooms may turn into dens of iniquity. It has been suggested that if murder is committed the State will in fact go into the bedrooms of the nation, but there are many acts that occur between consenting heterosexual people in the privacy of their own bedrooms that would not conform to the standards accepted as normal behaviour. Yet there is no danger of their being exposed to criminal proceedings, and that appears to me to be an injustice. It is also suggested that if this Bill is passed, procreation will go out and zero growth will apply, but I wonder if there really is logic in that. Would the homosexual be more inclined to procreate because homosexuality is illegal by statute, and would it be a good thing if he did? We hear about the importance of the family unit and the need for moral family commitments. Well, can a man provide a good, secure, family environment if his own mental abilities are confused by his sexual leanings because his sexual leanings do not comply with the law? It would seem to imply that the sexual act itself is to be used only for the purpose of procreation. May I ask that we be honest with ourselves. Would there be one person in this Chamber who can say he has never performed that act for a purpose other than procreation? I do not believe the Bill condones or otherwise the act of homosexuality; what it does do is recognise the need to legislate justly and without discrimination, and for that reason it has my support. Hon. G. F. GAIR (North Shore) - Together with many other members in this Chamber I am presented today with the task of deciding what I must in my conscience do about supporting or rejecting this Bill. I do not doubt that all other members have received a flood of mail - as I have - over the months, and in fact over the years, some of it for, and some of it against. I know that no member has received more mail than my colleague, the member for Egmont, who is the proposer of this measure. Some of that mail has not been rational and reasoned, some of it has been excessive, occasionally abusive, and no member has suffered more in this regard than the member for Egmont. I pay a public tribute to him for the way he has steadfastly held to his resolve and his commitment, and I believe in the fullness of time his act will be seen as an act of legislative bravery which has few precedents in this House. When he introduced this measure last year I supported its introduction, and I said I would support him. I have seen nothing to change my view. I have endeavoured to inform myself of the arguments both for and against the measure which have tumbled over my desk since that time. When I gave my observations on the introduction of the Bill I did not do so lightly. I had spent many months discussing this matter and the principles involved with people both for and against, and I must say I was impressed by the arguments and the dedication of many people who were active in the inner committee of the Homosexual Law Reform Society. There I met prominent churchmen from a number of denominations, doctors of medicine, psychiatry, and letters, leading social workers, lawyers, and other important public figures, and I freely acknowledge that several of them held political persuasions that I could not support. But in this issue of conscience I share their concern and support their cause. The Homosexual Law Reform Society is only one of many bodies supporting the measure before us, but I believe it has been by far the most responsible of the bodies dedicated to this cause. I realise that every cause has supporters who in fact are an embarrassment, and this cause is among those. It is important that we set aside some of the ostentatious and superficial champions and their arguments because they do not help us define the real problem and search for the real answer. In searching for the answer my background studies have taken me to a former Minister of Justice, the late Ralph Hanan. In some respects his legislation could be considered the precursor of the present measure, and he himself a precedent setter for my colleague the member for Egmont. I know that as far back as September 1967 Ralph Hanan, then Minister of Justice, wrote to the secretary of the Homosexual Law Reform Society, at that stage much less known and less supported than it is today. He wrote this on to the record: “I entirely support your object of informing the public fully on this issue of replacing prejudice and emotion by understanding and a rational approach, and temperate discussion and the elucidation of facts cannot fail to be beneficial whether or not your society's paramount object of changing the law meets with early success.” We know that it did not meet with early success. The mood of the 1960s was not then right to accept the change, but I have a feeling that the mood of the 1970s is that society is ready to accept that change. In a number of countries the change has already been made, in some instances quite a number of years ago. This gives us the opportunity to study the degree to which this is or is not a serious problem, which some of the opponents of this measure would have us believe to be the case. England and Wales have taken this step, as has Canada, South Australia, the Australian Capital Territory, a number of American States, and I think the majority of the countries in Northern and Western Europe. What do we find in those places? We do not find the realisation of the dire forebodings of those who fear this step. I imagine that the most dedicated centre of opposition to the proposal quotes biblical authority for the stand it takes. I am somewhat divided and somewhat concerned as to how I should interpret this evidence. I am not a man with particular knowledge of biblical matters, but I do know that, among the supporters of this measure, are a large number of leading churchmen who presumably are well versed in biblical matters. It seems that the churches are divided on this issue, and that some churches are divided within themselves. A list has been presented to every member of the House, I understand, which sets out some of the leading organisations that have seen fit to pass resolutions in support of this step. When we see this list, even just a cross-sampling of the more prominent bodies - prominent in numbers and prominent in their opinion-making capacity - we realise the very widespread level of support the principle of this Bill actually has and the degree to which public thinking has changed. I notice that the list includes such bodies as the Methodist Church, the Associated Churches of Christ, some of the Anglican Diocese, the Presbyterian Church, and the Society of Friends. Among other community bodies who support the measure we have such groups as the Jaycees at a national level, some branches of the National Council of Women, the Council for Civil Liberties, the Howard League for Penal Reform, and the New Zealand University Students Association. Although this is a non-political issue and every member in the House speaks and votes according to his conscience and that alone, it is a fact, and it is worth recording, that remits supporting such a measure have been carried by both the New Zealand Labour Party and the New Zealand National Party. It also happens to be a feature in the Values Party's election manifesto. However, it is not the support or opposition from outside bodies or outside persons which, in a final analysis, must help us make the decision; it is the individual thinking, the individual reaction, the individual judgment, and the individual conscience of 87 members of this Chamber that must do so. That is why I believe so many members have sought to explain not only how they propose to vote but also why they propose to vote in that way. As I have said earlier on another measure, which also involved a conscience vote, I have good friends who have come out very strongly against this measure and I have good friends who have come out very strongly for the measure. I appreciate their sincerity; I understand why they feel as they do. I would like them to know, lest this measure pass the second reading stage and have attached to it in the Committee stage an amendment publicly proposed by the member for Porirua, that I would have to review my support of the Bill if this House should see fit to attach what is known as the Dr Wall amendment to the Bill. It is interesting that, in the history of Western civilisation since the time of the founding of Christianity, there have been only about 100 years in those nineteen and a half centuries or more in which homosexual acts have been a matter of illegality. It seems to me that we should separate the question of morality from that of legality and make clear in our thinking especially the fact that morality and legality are not synonymous. I freely admit that in some respects they are mutually interdependent, but they are in fact different issues. The question of homosexuality is basically a moral matter, a medical matter, and a social matter rather than a legal one. If this argument were not sound, may I ask why is it that homosexual acts between females are not a crime while the law today says that homosexual acts between males are a crime? Every man in public life has some moments when he must make decisions when frequently he would prefer to avoid the necessity for making them. We know that many social and moral issues are not matters of black and white, but are very genuinely questions of grey. If this measure had not been introduced by my colleague the member for Egmont it could well be that this Parliament would have continued to pretend for some years that the issue did not exist, and ignored the matter. Whether we like it or not, the courage of the member for Egmont has thrust this issue before us, and we must decide on it one way or another. We must decide. We cannot see it only in terms of the grey that it probably is; somehow we must refocus our attention in terms of black or white. For myself, I support the Bill. Hon. Sir ROY JACK (Rangitikei) - I speak in this debate with some distaste. I have never been much interested in the movement for homosexual law reform. Nevertheless I have admired the courage of some of my colleagues, who have been prepared to state their views in the face of obloquy. For that reason I doubt whether my proper course is to retire to the convenient bunker of silence. Throughout the whole of the Christian era, and no doubt long before that, homosexuality has been regarded as immoral and repellent and, whether or not this Bill is passed, I have not the slightest doubt that that position will continue. The criminal law is normally concerned with the protection of the person and the property of citizens against outside intrusion, and the invocation of the criminal law in such a matter as homosexual acts between consenting males is a departure from its normal purpose - a comparatively recent innovation, and, it seems, an unsuccessful innovation. For the whole of the nearly 20 centuries of the Christian era homosexual acts between consenting adult females have not been in breach of the criminal law, and for nearly 19 of the nearly 20 centuries of the Christian era under British law homosexual acts in general between consenting adult males have not been in breach of the criminal law, but towards the end of the last century an alteration was made that strangely, in a novel manner, made homosexuality between adult males unlawful, but left the position as regards adult females as it was. The Bill before the House proposes to leave the law in so far as females are concerned the same as it has been under English criminal law for the last 2,000 years, and broadly to return it to the position that obtained in the first 19 or so centuries of the Christian era so far as consenting adult males are concerned. It has been argued by a number of persons opposing the Bill that it is a move in the direction of what is called the permissive society. I oppose the growth of a permissive society, a structureless society with a fading ethos, but I do not believe that the legislation at present before the House is a move in that direction. Rather, I believe it is an honest move to restore common sense to our criminal law and to remove what is, in my view, a defect imported into that law a century ago. The criminal law as a weapon to deal with the unfortunate, unpleasant deviation of homosexuality is peculiarly ineffective, and there is no indication that imprisonment has cured this deviant state of mind that results in homosexual attitudes. It is also true that the law making it criminal for consenting adult males to commit homosexual acts has been the basis of blackmail. It is true that the fact of homosexuality between consenting adult males being a crime discourages deviant persons from seeking guidance or treatment, and on balance it does seem to me that the provisions of our criminal law in this regard have done more harm than good. It should be noted that under the proposed legislation the existing provisions against indecent assault upon young persons are not altered. It should also be noted that the provisions of our law against male prostitution and procuring are, in fact, strengthened. I support the feelings of the member for Porirua in his revulsion from or his opposition to aggressive proselytising, but I believe that his proposed amendement to this Bill is mistaken in its approach and would make bad law. I support the Bill without enthusiasm because I find the whole topic distasteful, but I support it because I feel the move is justified. This reform is supported over an extraordinarily wide area of the community. Inside the House we find it is supported by the Prime Minister and by the Leader of the Opposition. At least two annual conferences of the Labour Party carried resolutions in favour of the proposed reform and at two annual conferences of the National Party resolutions were carried in favour of it. A select committee of the House heard evidence in favour from a very wide area of the community. It appears that the predominant opinion among the churches is in favour of the reform. The Methodist Church supports it; submissions were made on behalf of the Presbyterian Church in favour of change; and the public questions committee of the General Synod of the Anglican Church favours the Bill before the House. It is true that not all churches support it, and the Roman Catholic Church is predominantly opposed to the change, but there is a division of opinion even within the Catholic Church. Moreover, we find a very wide body of organisations supporting the Bill. The New Zealand Social Workers Association supports it, and the Australian and New Zealand College of Psychologists, the New Zealand Police Association Officers Guild, the New Zealand Student Christian Movement, the New Zealand Sociological Association, the New Zealand Psychological Association; all these bodies support the Bill, as do the New Zealand Probation Officers Association, the New Zealand University Students Association, and a number of others. I agree with their view in favour of the proposed reform, and though I also agree with the feelings of those who view homosexuality as particularly distasteful, I believe that the Bill is right and should be passed. Hon. D. A. HIGHET (Remuera) - I support the Bill, and I congratulate the member for Egmont on his courage and tenacity in bringing the Bill to this stage. I shall oppose the member for Porirua's amendment as being far too restrictive. In fact, it will endeavour to restrict freedom of speech, freedom of discussion, and freedom of communication. Much as I respect the motives behind the member's amendment, I believe that once again he has gone too far in endeavouring in this case to protect the young. I support the member for Rangitikei when he says that this amendment would make very bad law. Homosexuality is not a simple phenomenon. People become homosexuals for a variety of reasons. Some are corrupted, some are conditioned by parental behaviour, and some may be brought to it by hormonal malfunction, but evidence shows beyond a shadow of doubt that some homosexuals are homosexual by nature. Do not let us get carried away by this Bill. Emotion has no place in this debate. Let us be practical. This Bill does not encourage the practice of homosexual acts. It gives no open slather for homosexual behaviour. What it does do is to remove the stigma of crime from a certain section of law-abiding people, people who in all other aspects of their life stick strictly to the law and find themselves classed as lawbreakers. How we, both men and women in this House, feel individually about homosexuality has no part in this debate. It has no appeal to me, but that will not affect my vote. I shall look at the whole question dispassionately. I shall support the Bill, which will remove from the Police a responsibility to enforce a law which is not approved by the majority of New Zealanders. The Bill does not in any way condone promiscuous homosexuality. The practice of homosexual acts in public will still result in a heavy fine or imprisonment. The Bill is aimed at helping people with homosexual tendencies to live more easily in our society by removing a criminal implication towards an immoral act. I was very interested to hear the member for Kapiti speak. I agree with him that the radical members of the gay liberation group in trying to do good for their cause do more harm than good, but I believe they represent a very small minority. To look upon them as representing the voice of those who support this Bill is like judging the youth of today by the chain-bashing gangs who cause so much disturbance in our community. I am reminded of the clergy from most denominations, the leaders in the legal profession, the leaders in our student movement, the women of standing in the community, and a great number of social workers who support this Bill. As a very poor Presbyterian I will quote the views of my church, as other members have expressed the opinion of theirs. I want to read from the supplementary submissions made by the public questions committee of the Presbyterian Church to the committee that looked into this Bill: “Since the preparation of the initial submission the question of the church's attitude towards homosexuality and homosexual law reform has been before the church's general assembly meeting in Auckland. There is concern within the church at claims that homosexuality be regarded as a normal sexual condition. The 1974 assembly declared that homosexual practices are contrary to the will of God and should not be regarded as normal. The church sees a real need for society to assist those subject to homosexual tendencies to cope with such tendencies and to develop if possible towards normal heterosexual orientation. The church envisages the possibility of appropriate treatment centres rather than prisons for those for whom homosexuality is a problem. The public questions committee has undertaken a thorough consideration of the whole topic during the current year and expects to bring a detailed report to the next general assembly of the church. At this stage we must acknowledge a considerable diversity of attitude within the church and also, we believe, a considerable measure of misunderstanding as to the nature of homosexuality. A move at the assembly to rescind the church's support for homosexual law reform was heavily defeated, and the church remains committed to supporting law reform to remove from the criminal code homosexual acts in private between consenting adult males.” By that final supplementary submission I believe that the Presbyterian Church is showing its support for this Bill. This is a problem which, in my opinion, cannot be solved by legislation. Any attempt by a male adult to introduce a youth or minor to homosexual activity must be condemned, and I am pleased that the member for Egmont has, in this Bill, increased the penalty for such an offence. The homosexual needs to be treated with compassion and understanding, not treated as a criminal. For that reason I support the Bill. Hon. B. E. TALBOYS (Deputy Leader of the Opposition) - I was a member of the committee that heard the evidence on this Bill, but such is the nature of the question that I must admit that all the hearing did was to increase the anguish of decision. In fact, I recorded a vote against the Bill at the committee. This is a question on which head and heart are in conflict. I know perfectly well when the decision is made that that will still be so. I have no difficulty with the question of whether homosexual practices, either in private or anywhere else, are normal. As far as I am concerned they are not. Those who argued to the contrary before the committee were undoubtedly expressing their own view of normality, but it is one which I certainly cannot accept. Equally, I have no difficulty with the question of whether such practises are natural. Between women, or between men, they cannot be accepted as natural. Tradition and background leave me with absolutely no difficulty as to whether such practices are immoral. That is as I see it, and the force and power of that sanction will continue whatever change is made in the law. I am quite certain, of course, that changing the law will not change the attitude of society. Society's attitudes do not change simply with a change in the law. The question before us is whether, between males in private, such practices should be a criminal offence punishable, as has been the case on occasions, by imprisonment. Those cases of course are rare, but cases have been brought before the courts. I can really think of nothing less appropriate than sending such people to jail, and yet there seems little likelihood of any counselling services being provided while these activities are criminal. I believe that the need for counselling is real, and I think the interest in providing such services is to be found in some of the organisations and associations that gave evidence to us. So finally I come to the question, do we do any good for an individual or for society with the law as it presently stands? What is its purpose? What are we achieving? It is certain that the law does not prevent people from indulging in these practices. Equally, the law provides, at present at any rate, no system of reform, and so I find myself finally in much the same position as I eventually reached on the question of capital punishment. All my background suggested that we should continue a process of capital punishment; but finally I looked at the law and at what we did and I decided that we had a system that we are pleased to call penal reform; but of course what we did with capital punishment was to destroy the lives of those who were capable of reform and preserve the lives of those who were incapable of it. In this case there is no reformation by sending anybody to jail; and I am not convinced that the law acts as a deterrent. And so, I think quite unwillingly, I come to the conclusion that I must support the change in the law that is proposed here. I have had a great deal of sympathy with the view put forward by the member for Porirua, who expressed concern about proselytising activities. I share that concern, but then, I suppose trying to reach a state of reality, I look at what has happened through the centuries in the case of female homosexuals. We talk of flood gates being opened, but there has been no sanction against female homosexuality during the whole of our history, and we are not aware - certainly I am not - of any great proselytising movement among young females. So I come to the conclusion that what I should do is support the proposed amendment. Mr SLOANE (Hobson) - I shall not keep the House very long, but I do wish to stand and be counted on this matter. I sincerely admire my parliamentary colleague, the member for Egmont, for the stand he has taken. Previous speakers have mentioned the mail he has received at times and the insults he has had to put up with. Well, I know no finer man in the House than Ven Young, and I do admire the attitude he has adopted in bringing forward this Bill so that Parliament may discuss it. Unlike my colleague the member for Remuera, how I feel about this Bill matters to me, and maybe I could get a little emotional about it. I consider we are going along the wrong road if we ease the law as it stands at present. I have no wish to debate the issue with the member for North Shore, but I could not agree with some of the arguments he put forward. He said the law was changed in Canada, in the NATO countries, in certain States of America, and in Western Australia, and that really there had been no dire results from the new legislation those countries had enacted. I could go on for quite a while proving, to my own satisfaction anyway, that there certainly has not been any advance in the morality of those countries or in the general conduct of their young people. I could quote from evidence given, and will just name one city, Amsterdam. In 1969 the age of consent between males was lowered to 16. I was in Amsterdam in the 1970s, and that area has become notorious for its pimps, sex shops, and drug addicts. We do not want that to happen in New Zealand. Did I hear the member for North Shore correctly that this was not illegal 100 years ago? In England they called it buggery - sodomy, as we might call it. The present provisions of the Crimes Act 1961 can be traced back in a direct line to the English Offences Against a Person Act 1861, which abolished the death penalty for sodomy. That is what they thought of it in that age. However, it does not mean we cannot advance in our outlook, morally and otherwise. Let me quote from a note I received from the Homosexual Law Reform Society: “Now is the time for clear and unemotional thinking, not only by members of our society but also by people throughout the country, by members of Parliament, and the people who elected them.” In the debate we have heard evidence that this is exactly what has happened. I did not have the privilege, as did the Deputy Leader of the Opposition and the member for Piako, of sitting on this select committee. Those two Opposition members went into that committee with views other than the ones they have expressed now, and we must admire them for the stand they have taken. It has been said that the churches support the amendment and that the Catholics were divided. I can only say that I have received dozens and dozens of letters from my constituents, not one of whom would support the Bill introduced by the member for Egmont. That is to be expected because I come from a conservative country area. In all honesty I cannot support this Bill. Goodness knows, I have tried to think it out and have spent hours in reading and in discussions with both young and older people, even with my own family; and I might say that perhaps my own family might not go along with my thinking. I have listened to some uninformed and emotional statements, as will always be the case in any discussion on this matter. Months ago I read a statement made by Lord Shawcross. I do not have the quotation with me, but he said, “The great principles of good, or even kindness or cruelty, generosity or selfishness, love or lust, do not change because some confused cleric or committee or noisy banner-waving element demand what I say is a lowering of morals.” I shall quote from what was said in 1965 by a most conservative gentleman, Lord Montgomery. I shall not quote it at length, but he says - and this concerns me - “The first category I take is the boys and the young men in our schools and universities who, I suppose, number some millions, although I would not know the exact figure. What influence in their minds and characters will follow if they know that their masters and tutors are indulging in these unnatural practices and if they know that the law of the land will allow it? What effect will this have on the moral fibre of these boys, some of them quite young and under 21? The practices are illegal and yet, suddenly, on the morning of their 21st birthday they can do what they like and they are legal.” Finally he says: “Far from helping these unnatural practices along, surely our task is to build a bulwark which will defy influences which are seeking to undermine the very foundation of our national character. Defy them. Do not help them.” I have heard some say - and indeed the honourable earl himself said this - that such practices are allowed in France and in NATO countries. We are not French nor other nationals. We are British, thank God. Those are some of the thoughts of Lord Montgomery. It was my intention to read further evidence that came forward, to suit my own case I admit, but I will not weary the House because the subject has been covered amply and I believe the House is ready to vote. Finally, expressed in simple terms, I suggest the issue is this: is this House to give a lead, or is it not, to the New Zealand people by agreeing to a Bill which will have the effect of undermining the moral fibre of the youth of our country? Those are my feelings on the subject. Right Hon. Sir KEITH HOLYOAKE - “Thank God I am not as other men.” I thought there was one small element of that in the quotation of the honourable member for Hobson. I hope he will excuse my taking that line. The thought of homosexual acts is absolutely abhorrent and repulsive to me; but who am I to judge? I am not going to compliment fulsomely the member for Egmont on his courage, because I wish he would take his jolly old Bill away. I wish we had never heard of it. I also wish the problem would go away. Having said that, I suppose I must join others and compliment him for his courage in bringing forward a Bill that we all wish had not been brought forward and that the problem would simply dissolve and disappear. The problem, however, is there, and from time to time these questions, whether moral, legal, emotional, or whatever they are, will arise and have public common currency and will require to be discussed and settled. I confess openly that 2 years ago - perhaps even 1 year ago - I would have voted against such a proposition as this; today I will vote for it. Seeing that homosexual acts are obnoxious to me, as they must be to the great majority of us, then my natural instinct is to vote against any change in the law. The natural thing to do is to lash out against the law or any proposal to change the law if we do not like the context of the subject that is dealt with. This is a natural emotional reaction, but we must use more than that. We must use judgment and whatever logic we have. At this stage of the debate I will not go over all - indeed, I will go over very few - of the arguments adduced for and against by other members except to say I am not convinced that the present sanctions in the law have achieved very much. I will not say they have not achieved anything, but I do not think they have achieved enough on balance to warrant their continuation. The member for Rodney quoted a lot of figures of convictions under the law and the kind of penalties that have been imposed. I am sorry I did not listen closely enough to him before he came to that passage in his speech, and I have to ask him whether I am correct when I say I imagine he was dealing with all the offences under those headings, and not with the offences in the narrow range with which this Bill deals - that is, homosexual acts between consenting adults in private. After all, this law does not alter all the rest. It would be interesting, if he had the figures - and I presume he had - to know how many cases have been brought that would be affected by this amendment to the law. Mr Wilkinson - From the actually received? Right Hon. Sir KEITH HOLYOAKE - For all kinds of homosexual acts, and not just those in the very narrow range we are dealing with in this proposed amendment. What is the difference? The member for Rodney quoted figures to prove why we should not carry this amendment. He was quoting figures that have nothing whatever to do with the amendment, or only to a very small extent. Mr Wilkinson - Very few people have gone to jail for homosexual offences. Right Hon. Sir KEITH HOLYOAKE - Because the acts are performed in private not many are detectable, although some are. I thought the figures were misleading in that the member quoted a wider field of homosexual acts committed against the law and how the court had treated them. It was an interesting comment, but I feel it was mainly, although not wholly, irrelevant to this proposed amendment. It has been mentioned by other members that the very nature of the homosexual acts we are discussing - homosexual acts committed by consenting males in private - means that not many are detected and come number before the court. For that reason the existing law has very little application and is virtually ineffectual. I want to speak very briefly about the main points that have determined me to vote in favour of the law. As I have said so often before, I believe there should be no difference under the law in the treatment of males and females. However, that has been dealt with at great length and I say no more about it. Secondly, I asked myself, is the present law preventing or deterring homosexual acts between males? No one can prove this, but I should think to some extent, although very minor. I should have thought the advantage here would have been so minimal that it would not weigh heavily, with me at least, against the disadvantages under the existing law. Would the proposed amendment tend to increase the number of homosexual acts between adult males? From what I have learned and heard, I doubt it. If it did, it would have only a minimal effect; and indeed, we could not prove that this was so. I am certainly not convinced that the floodgates would be opened. Indeed, I am utterly convinced that the argument is wrong. I am impressed also by the statement of the member for Egmont, verified by some other members of the select committee which took evidence, that every person, every organisation, and every church giving evidence to the committee was asked this specific question, although perhaps not in the exact words: if the existing law was as now proposed in this amending Bill, would you crusade to change it to what the law is at present? The member for Egmont and others confirmed that, after proper thought and consideration, all the church representatives said, “No, we would not ask for the law to be changed to what it is at present.” I think there was one exception, a small evangelical, crusading section of the Anglican Church. I think that is the heart of the centre core of the whole question. Is the existing law an anachronism? Are we, or are some people, clinging to it simply because it is there? If it were not there, as it is not for females, would there be a crusade today to allow what is an existing sanction under our law? I am certain there would not be a widespread crusade. If there were a crusade, it would be very minor. This, to me, is a very important aspect of the whole question. I am also influenced by experiences I have had in public life, in offices I have held in this House and in this country, of people in quite high places who exercised considerable responsibility and judgment, and indeed influence, but who were homosexuals or homosexually inclined and were subjected to blackmail and mental torture as a result of all that stems from it, and of the way it affected their whole lives, their relationships with their families and indeed with other people. Hon. David Thomson - The police have no knowledge of such cases. Right Hon. Sir KEITH HOLYOAKE - The police have no knowledge that what I say is correct? Hon. R. J. Tizard - Don’t let him confuse you. Right Hon. Sir KEITH HOLYOAKE - I accept what the member for Stratford says. All I am saying is that I have personal knowledge of it and of the mental and spiritual torture that those people went through, and which those who are still alive are, I suppose, still going through. I am not saying that they should not have some mental torture because as I say, and said at the outset - and I am still of the same opinion - homosexual acts between males, and females for that matter, are abhorrent to me. To me they are obnoxious, unnatural, and abnormal. I suppose for anybody experiencing this for whatever reason, whether he was born with these tendencies or acquired them, or whether they are forced upon him through his environment, it is a natural thing, but he will still suffer some mental torture and pay some price. The experiences I have had in the positions I have held convince me that these people suffered too great a penalty. This is something on which one can use only one's own judgment, as one person observing another. What penalty should they pay? I believe that in the cases I knew of and know of, these people suffered too great a penalty, too great a mental and spiritual torture, because of the fear of discovery, the fear of publication, and of the exercise of the penalties in the law as it is today. That again, and perhaps more than anything else, has persuaded me to vote in favour of the amendment. I repeat that 2 years ago, perhaps 1 year ago, it would have been difficult to convince me to support the amendment, but today I do support it. Mr BIRCH (Franklin) - Like other members from both sides of this House, I have had very considerable difficulty in deciding whether I should support or oppose the private member's Bill of my colleague, the member for Egmont. Like him, I have considerable compassion for the problems of homosexuals - problems which homosexuals and many others, including many highly qualified people, believe are centred on the intrusion of the statutes into moral issues. In an effort to understand the Bill, and how the Crimes Act created additional pressures on people with homosexual tendencies, I joined the member for Egmont in a number of early discussions with the Homosexual Law Reform Society. Like others at those discussions, I was very impressed with the ability and quality of the people who supported homosexual law reform. But this is not an issue on which one can or should look at the law solely through the eyes of those directly involved. One must rather consider one's own conscience, and the effect on society of changing the law. I have found after very long consideration that I cannot accept homosexual behaviour as, normal, nor would I wish to take part in any action that would be seen to condone, encourage, or even passively accept homosexual practice. It is for that reason that I find myself unable to support the Bill. I believe that to support the Bill would be seen as condoning, even though passively, homosexual behaviour. So it is with much regret that I am unable to support the member for Egmont. I also greatly regret that there is this anomaly in the law whereby action by female homosexuals in private is seen to be and is within the law, while action by male homosexuals in private is outside the law. I take the point made by the member for Egmont and many others that if one is not able to support this Bill, should one not be promoting a law or an amendment to bring female homosexuals within the Crimes Act as well. I would answer the member for Egmont in this way: I am not satisfied, until society is prepared to provide more positive assistance to people who practise homosexual behaviour, and until society is prepared to concentrate more of its resources on a study of the inherent influences which bring about homosexuality and is prepared to do more in these important fields, that this law should be changed. I also make the point that the law falls unevenly on sections of society. All of us, even in this House, are capable of criminal action. We are discouraged from taking part in criminal actions by the fact that in doing so we would lose the respect of our families and our fellow men, and we are discouraged by the punishment itself. But the greatest deterrent of all is that in moving outside accepted standards we transgress the norms of society - the accepted behavioural standards set up and adopted by society itself. I fully appreciate that tendencies to act outside normally accepted standards also fall unevenly. Some peculiarity of chemistry, background, or early childhood environment makes it more difficult for some than for others. I fully appreciate that. However, the attitudes of the community and its leaders and, most important, the attitude of Parliament itself, are vital to the standards accepted by society at large. It seems to me on balance, therefore, that any action seen to condone or accept homosexuality can have considerable influence on the views of society at large. It is for that reason that I am unable to support the member for Egmont in his efforts to have the Bill accepted and the law changed. It would be much better, I believe, for society to work hard in devoting more resources to an attempt to understand the influences which bring about homosexual behaviour; much better to devote our efforts to correcting something which the House, I believe, has agreed is not a normal human situation. I regret, therefore, that I will be voting against the Bill. Mr DOWNIE (Pakuranga) - I join with my colleagues in congratulating the member for Egmont on bringing this Bill before the House. I think we all know it has taken a great deal of courage to do this, because this subject is in an area of debate in which it is difficult to see the clear lines of action which will follow the results of this Bill. We are all aware of the degree of concern expressed by all people throughout the country on this matter. I think it is equally true to say that we have no evidence to suggest that the amendment to the law in other countries has brought about any lessening of the promiscuity which has been and is causing considerable concern. I believe it is right and proper that this topic should be discussed in this House, as there is increasing controversy on the subject of homosexual behaviour. The anomalies in the legislation between male and female homosexuals have been pointed out very clearly to us in this debate. It would also be true to say that the introduction of legislation to deal with female homosexual behaviour would not in any way improve the situation for males. The likelihood of reducing the obnoxious activities of a number of groups would not be lessened by the passing of such legislation. Over a number of years, and particularly recently, I have heard many arguments for changing the law in relation to homosexual acts, but while the arguments were very convincing and logical, they were to a great degree academic and largely ignored the very offensive behaviour which undoubtedly causes considerable concern in the community. It is true that one of the difficulties with which we are confronted is that people are able to obtain a driving licence at 15 years of age. It is unlawful to drive under the age of 15, but it is acceptable above that age. Likewise, we have laws relating to drinking and voting. Now we are saying that we will make certain acts acceptable above a specified age, and unacceptable below it. This is one of the difficulties I face in making a decision in regard to a change in this legislation; I fully appreciate that an anomaly exists in the law. It is equally true, as has been pointed out by the member for Rodney, that there is no mandatory sentence attached to this Bill. In other words, there is no imprisonment involved. Much has been made of that side of the argument, but sufficient reason for changing the law has not been proved. If we change the law we must be extremely careful. It has been pointed out that in this Bill everything relates to a magic age. It appears that we do not consider that people above that age could be seriously influenced, but I suggest that they could be, and that generally the result would be a serious lowering of moral standards. I think a great disservice has been done to this cause by the Gay Liberation movement and some of its publications. I do not believe anyone in this House would condone the material that has been put out. I am speaking here about a publication issued from some of the branches, and particularly about one extremely offensive article emanating from Christchurch earlier this year. It was written by a self-confessed practising homosexual. He was glorifying the acts of the Arabs, and even went so far as to state that those on whom this act had been performed were changed psychologically as a result of it. I am quite certain that a lot of very serious and careful thought should be given in this area before we make a move to change the legislation. The agitation for a change in the law has been going on for many years, but it has been noticeable recently that groups have been parading the streets and putting out an increasing volume of literature in defence of their case. I think this is having an effect on the public the reverse of what is intended. I do believe that a change can be made to the law, but I have not been convinced by the arguments that this Bill and the suggested amendment would provide the criteria that would be required to make a change that would be in the interests of society. For this reason I find it impossible to support this Bill. While recognising the difficulties and individual problems that are associated with it, I feel that this Bill in its present form will not do what is claimed for it. Mr BOLGER (King Country) - I rise late in the debate to speak briefly on the Bill. Like my colleague the member for Franklin, I was involved early in the discussions between the member for Egmont and those who sought a reform of the law. I listened with great interest to the submissions they placed before us and to the arguments they advanced. I must confess that they were unable to indicate to us where the operation of the present law was repressive, or in any way harsh on those who had a natural inclination towards homosexual acts. I state quite clearly that although I understand and sympathise with the intentions of this Bill I will not be voting for its second reading. The reasons advanced in favour of the Bill fall broadly into three main categories. The first is compassion, a very laudable sentiment. It is claimed, secondly, that the law as at present written cannot be enforced, and, thirdly, that it permits ostracism or blackmail of a person so inclined. Let us briefly look at these three arguments. I submit that many sectors of society require compassion, but they all come under the same general law. We have in our society those who are much more prone than others to violent acts, yet they are governed by the general legislation on violence. It is said that the law cannot be enforced, but many laws are extremely difficult of enforcement. The simple law on theft is probably enforced only about 50 percent of the time but there is no suggestion that we should alter that law or any other law because it is difficult to enforce. Let us look at the question of blackmail. Unless society's attitudes towards homosexual acts alter, the possibility of blackmail will not be removed by the passage of the legislation we are presently debating. Those who have spoken in favour of the Bill have advanced the argument that they do not consider homosexual acts to be natural. They have said they are totally opposed to perverting the young and to lowering the general standards of society. I submit that there is some inconsistency there, because we exclude from the ramifications of this Bill - and I waited to hear an explanation of this - the police and those who are in the armed forces. The passage of this Bill, then, would create another anomaly in that policemen and servicemen, because they are excluded from its provisions, are considered to be more susceptible to homosexual acts. Hon. L. W. Gandar - They come under a different Act. Mr BOLGER - But they are still not permitted to engage in homosexual activities in private. Probably no groups would be more mature in their outlook than those two, and I invite someone to advance reasons why it was considered desirable to exclude them from this legislation. Another question that was discussed in the committee, and has also been raised in this House, is the definition of an adult. The Bill as originally introduced accepted the old standard of an adult, a person 21 years of age or over. The age in the Bill has now been lowered to 20 years, but there is considerable agitation by those who support reform of the law to lower the age substantially below 20 years. The argument is advanced that heterosexual activity is permitted at the age of 16 and that one is permitted to vote at 18, and so the restriction of homosexual activity to persons 20 years of age and older is repressive. Probably the strongest argument advanced in favour of a lower age was in the submissions of the public questions committee of the Methodist Church, which said: “There is justification for reducing this age to 18 years, or alternatively to 16 years. In support of reducing the age to 16 years in the proposed amendment, it is noted that a girl of 16 years may consent to carnal knowledge with a man. It is difficult to find reasons that will permit such a girl to make a decision concerning her sexual conduct with either a male or a female, but yet deny the same right and responsibility to a 16-year-old male.” So there are strong arguments to reduce the age to 16, because that is the age of consent for heterosexuals. But we must take this question one step further. There is strong support in the community for lowering the age at which contraceptive advice and paraphernalia can be supplied to young girls, and if we supply these to young girls it is logical that we will have to lower the age of consent below 16. Therefore we can advance the argument that was advanced before, and say we would have to lower the age of consent for homosexuals to a similar lower age. The Bill has retained the age of 20 years because the member for Egmont wanted to be sure that a person had this strong and permanent orientation towards homosexual activities, and that those of a younger age should not be attracted temporarily to, and then finally committed to, this type of sexual activity. But I think that if we pass this Bill we will again be asked to reduce the age within the next few years, and continue on a downward scale. I have mentioned the question of the armed forces, a single group of males, but we are faced not only with the Army and the Police. If we lower the age of consent we run into the additional problem of our single-sex schools, which would then be placed in the same position. Would we exclude those from future legislation? The Bill, intended to correct a situation that is frankly untidy, would produce a situation that could be equally untidy. I do not believe that the present situation is a perfect solution, because I do not believe there is a perfect solution. What we have to ask ourselves is whether the alternative proposed in this Bill would improve the situation or not, and in my submission it would not. There has been some discussion on the question of morality and its relationship to the law. There is some conflict here, but Western societies' laws are historically based on traditional morality, and that, I think, is a statement of fact. Let us consider what other guide we can use on which to base our laws. If we do not have this base for our laws, what will we substitute for it? I know that views differ as to where a moral stand should be taken, but I do not believe it is accurate to say that morality has no place in the drafting of laws. Morality has always been a guideline; it has always established some degree of parameters of the area under discussion, and has always provided lawmakers with guidance, if not with direct solutions to the problem of writing laws. Some have said that putting the homosexual in prison does not solve his problem. I do not disagree with that, but on those very rare occasions when a homosexual is brought before the courts the law does not automatically have to send him to prison. Many other arrangements are available, and I suggest, on the evidence and on the discussions I had before this Bill was brought into the House, that very few homosexuals are in jail for the sole reason that they are practising homosexuals. Another point which should be clarified is that there is no law against having homosexual inclinations, just as there is no law against being hottempered or light-fingered. There is a law against violence when one actively participates in violence, and there is a law against being light-fingered if you steal something. So, too, there is a law against homosexual activities when one takes part in them, but the condition of being a homosexual is not against the law. For these reasons and others I shall be voting against the second reading of this Bill. Hon. J. A. WALDING (Minister of Overseas Trade) - This question has been traversed extensively and there is nothing much to add, but I intend to support the second reading because I believe the present law is illogical, unfair, and unenforceable. It is illogical and unfair because it discriminates between men and women; it is unenforceable if the State is not to have easy access to the bedrooms of the nation. Once we give the State the right to determine what are natural acts and what are unnatural acts, we create a dangerous precedent. The State should not become involved in such issues. I accept that some people, no matter what their sexual inclinations, have no way whatsoever of changing them, any more than they can change the colour of their eyes from blue to brown. I also accept that these people in the past have been subject to a great deal of misery, intimidation, and blackmail, and that is undesirable. I also support the proposition put forward by the member for Porirua that there should be some restraint on the activities of those who seek to advocate a different life style. I believe those extremists do their cause a disservice. People with bisexual tendencies can be influenced if they are exposed at an early age to homosexual practices, and that can cause untold harm in years to come. While I cannot accept the amendment proposed by the member for Porirua, I should still like the opportunity of examining the position to ascertain whether or not some other such improvement can be made to the Bill. I can well remember my own early days at sea, when I learned that homosexual activities take place, and that many young people are influenced in a way they should not be. No matter what the law is, I think the social stigma of homosexuality will remain, and that is the most powerful influence against the type of activity with which the measure before us is concerned. However, I say again that the present law is illogical and unenforceable, and I intend to support the further progress of this Bill. Mr COMBER (Wellington Central) - During the 1972 election campaign I was asked on a public platform to state my views on homosexuality, as I have no doubt most parliamentary candidates were. I gave an honest answer: that I was not fully enough informed on the ramifications of any proposed change in the law to be able to state categorically my views on the issue. However, I gave my pledge to the people of my electorate in 1972 that I would apprise myself of the background and the ramifications of any proposed change, and this I have done. There has been a lot of talk about the Brian Edwards' television programme in which the whole practice of homosexuality was openly discussed. While moving around in my electorate in the week following that programme, I met and had a very forthright discussion with one of the several participants. I must confess that as a result of all that and other discussions, and the welter of paper and submissions I received during the debate, I have been torn in two directions. I have been asking myself whether the law as at present written and, more importantly, interpreted by the authorities is oppressive and unfair to practising homosexuals. I think four points emerge, which I shall mention briefly. Every Parliament in every country legislates in some way on morals. Under the existing law no homosexual has to go to jail. There is no mandatory jail sentence, although conceivably, as the law stands now, a maximum jail sentence can be imposed. I believe that if we remove the legal sanction against adult homosexuality the social stigma will remain, and that view was confirmed by the Minister of Overseas Trade just a few minutes ago. The Bill will not mean that there is more acceptance of homosexuals. As other members have said, it is possible that if this measure is passed public pressure will again be brought on Parliament within a year, or 2 years or 5 years, to reduce the age of consent to 18, 16, and so on. I also ask whether a change in the law will lead to a more overt aggressiveness by homosexuals. We can only speculate on that point, but I believe that if any member is in doubt about it he should vote against the Bill. Any enactment by this Parliament to change the law must be seen, rightly or wrongly, as condoning the act of homosexuality. I know that is not the intent of the Bill, and it is certainly not the intent of the member for Egmont, but I repeat that, rightly or wrongly, it will be seen by the public as condoning the homosexual act to some degree. I agree that the State has no place in the bedrooms of the country, but we are debating an issue which goes far beyond that. I do not believe that the proposed amendment will remove the threat of blackmail, which is abhorred by all members of the House. Indeed, I think almost everyone who has spoken either in favour of or against the Bill has made passing reference to that factor. No one has yet convinced me or made any strong attempt to indicate that homosexual behaviour is normal or natural. It is true that many males are born with strong homosexual traits. I accept that, but I ask myself whether we, as a Parliament, should encourage or condone a move towards acceptance of homosexuality and, in so doing, give people who are torn between homosexuality and heterosexuality the easy way, as it were, to adopt the homosexual trait. I do not believe it is the role, or indeed the duty, of Parliament to do such a thing. I am very sympathetic to males who find they have strong homosexual characteristics, and I do not say that in a patronising manner. I believe that a certain number of these people can be counselled and helped through what is often a very difficult time for them. The home environment has been mentioned in earlier debates and I will not elaborate on it, but I know that that does not cover the whole problem. I repeat that I have weighed up in my own conscience all the views that have been expressed over the last 24 years since I promised the people of my electorate that I would look very closely at the ramifications of change. I am finally swayed by the fact that under the law as it is written and interpreted now there is no mandatory jail sentence which could or is likely to be imposed by the courts. I am also guided by the fact that the passage of this Bill would not change the social stigma attaching to homosexuals. After taking all these considerations into account without malice, or heat, or antagonism to any person, I will vote against the second reading of this Bill. Right Hon. Sir JOHN MARSHALL (Karori) - I want to say simply and directly at the beginning that I am opposed to legalising homosexual behaviour. In my view it is an unnatural act, and I do not see any way in which it could reasonably be claimed to be otherwise. The human body is made for sexual relations between a man and a woman, and not between a man and another man. Mr V. S. Young - Or a woman with another woman. Right Hon. Sir JOHN MARSHALL– Yes, or a woman with another woman. To me, that seems to mean that homosexual behaviour, whether between two men or two women, is a perversion. To me, it is not only unnatural but repulsive. I know there are some who do not share that view. I think a distinction should be made very clearly between homosexual tendencies, which some people unfortunately have, and homosexual behaviour. I believe that a number of people who are homosexuals live with the problem and keep it to themselves. For them there is no condemnation, but there should be understanding and commendation for the restraint they show. There is nothing illegal or immoral in being a homosexual. What most people - and, as far as I can gather, all members of the House - regard as immoral is the performing of sexual acts with persons of the same sex, and that is what this Bill is about. The question is whether this kind of immoral behaviour should also be illegal. Those favouring the legislation of homosexual behaviour, as proposed in this Bill, say that the law should not be used to enforce moral standards. Well, of course, the law does not enforce all moral rules - most of the seven deadly sins are moral rules which are not enforced by legislation - but there is no doubt that the criminal law has a moral basis. The immoral nature of homosexual behaviour at least is an element in the criminal offence. I would agree that if homosexual behaviour were only a moral issue, if homosexual behaviour between two people of the same sex had no other consequence, it might be left as a matter of morality only, but in my view homosexual behaviour raises more than moral issues. I believe it has social and public consequences which ought to be the concern of the community and the responsibility of the State. I believe it is a responsibility of the State - I am not talking now about the Government but of the community as a whole - to be concerned about the preservation and the protection of the family. The maintenance of family life is important for the stability and happiness of our community and I am therefore concerned that a form of conduct which in my view is incompatible with the preservation of family life might be legalised. As I have said, I believe there are people who have homosexual tendencies but do not give way to them. There are others who might go either way - who might become addicted to homosexual behaviour or who might develop as normal people and have normal sexual relationships. If homosexual behaviour were legalised as this Bill proposes, it would cease to have the restraint of the law. To the extent that it then became more widely practised, it would, in my view, tend to undermine what might otherwise have been a normal family relationship. For the same reason, the legalising of homosexual behaviour would strike at a fundamental responsibility of the State, as I see it, to protect the community from the spread of practices which are unnatural, which are a perversion, and which, if they were to spread, would threaten the future of the race. In my view the spreading of this unnatural perversion has in it the seeds of national degeneration. Speakers in this debate have commented that in Britain and a number of other countries homosexual behaviour between consenting males in private has been legalised, and they have claimed that this has been done without apparent harm. I wish I could feel that was so, but I do not think the present social and economic conditions in Britain, to name only one country, provide a model for New Zealand to follow. It is sad that this should be so - it is very sad for those who have a great affection for Britain - but the plain fact is that a malaise has come upon that once great country. There is a general permissiveness, a lack of discipline and self-control, which I would not like to see encouraged in this country. The attitude to homosexual behaviour in Britain, of course, is just a small facet of that general malaise, but I want to have no part of it. It has been claimed in this debate, and I believe wrongly, that the law as it now stands is not enforced and not enforceable. It is true that the police do not invade private places where these offences are likely to be performed, and I certainly would not support that kind of intrusion; but when the police do have evidence of these offences, proceedings are taken in the ordinary course of the administration of the law. This is common enough in the administration of laws of this kind and is not a reason for repealing them. There is some evidence that wife beating still goes on to some extent in this country, and occasionally a husband is brought before the court for assaulting his wife, but the fact that very few such cases come to the notice of the police, even though they may be more prevalent, is not an argument for legalising wife beating. Similarly, the fact that there are very few prosecutions for homosexual behaviour is not a case for repealing the law. I would concede that imprisonment is not normally an appropriate punishment, but that is not the only deterrent available to the law. I would certainly favour a reform, if it is necessary to amend the law, to provide for other forms of punishment - for periodic detention, for fines, for probation, or for requirements as to treatment. I believe that that can, in any case, be done now. The final comment I make is that I hope that if this Bill does get to the Committee stage the amendment proposed by the member for Porirua will not be accepted. It seems to me that this - and I do not propose to debate its merits - would be a very retrograde step. For these reasons I am not prepared to support this Bill. Mr V. S. YOUNG (Egmont) - I want to thank all members who have taken part in this debate. I have an understanding for and with those who have struggled with their consciences before deciding how they would speak and vote on this measure. I hope we have all been able to think past an instinct we have within us, and to consider the plight of people whose feelings we do not feel and whose problem it is not easy for us to comprehend. Naturally, I thank those who have indicated their support for my Bill, and particularly those who have stood in this House and acknowledged that over the course of the years they have changed their opinions. This is never an easy thing to do. I also understand those who have spoken against the proposals of the Bill because of a deep religious conviction, yet I know there are many others with an equally deep religious conviction who strongly favour the measure. One cannot help but be persuaded by the support from a wide section of the established churches for the provisions in my Bill. There has been some suggestion - one particularly from my colleague the member for Rodney - that we should not really change, or even propose to change the law because there is no one in prison for homosexuality at the present time. I can only refer him to a portion of the submission made by the New Zealand Association of Probation Officers to the select committee: “Arrest, trial, and sentence for a homosexual who is otherwise a law-abiding citizen can be devastating. Career opportunities may be destroyed, purpose and goal in life may be lost, and satisfactory adjustment and a worthwhile contribution to society can become more difficult.” It may be argued that adult persons who engage in homosexual activities in private are not at risk of prosecution. The probation officers say this: “In our experience this is not always so. There also remains for the persons concerned a knowledge that the law has been broken, a constant fear of detection, and the possibility of various forms of extortion.” I do not propose to attribute to specific members arguments in opposition to the Bill, but I do find it difficult to understand the opinion of members whose inflexibility has required them to argue on matters not contained or even implied in the measure. The matter of the age of consent was argued on the basis of “Next it will be 18 years, then it may be 16, then it may be 14, then it may disappear altogether.” Members who use this argument know full well that a number of submissions were made to the select committee advocating provision for a lower age of consent in clause 2. Despite this, the consensus of the committee was that the age of consent should be 20. Some who have argued against the Bill have equated legality with morality, as indeed did the member for Karori, who immediately preceded me in this debate. There have been other criticisms about the definition of “in private” and, from the member for Tauranga, criticism of the definition of “a place of resort”. Those definitions are not in the Bill, having been removed by the amendments, but I make the point, as I have done time and time again, that essentially we distinguish between what is legal and what is moral. Those who oppose the Bill have three main arguments. First, it is said, society needs a moral code; any breach of this code weakens society even when no harm accompanies the breach; therefore the law should enforce this moral code. But surely this can apply only when everyone shares the same code of morality. Today our society is very heterogeneous. There are various views on morality, and I am sure a majority of New Zealanders support a change in the law. In any case, how does one judge in a law what is moral? Secondly, it is said that punishing the homosexual demonstrates society's condemnation of the act. Punishment is usually held to be either retribution or deterrent; that is, it does something to the individual to make him atone for what he has done, or it prevents others from doing the same thing. In fact, the present law does so in only a few cases, and consequently there are few prosecutions. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that society as a whole cannot feel strongly about the need for punishment. Another point of view suggests that if society's laws do not condemn acts, then they must be taken to condone them. That is simply not correct. A tremendous amount of psychological research has shown that people do not necessarily associate what is morally wrong with what is illegal, and that people would not feel that a repeal of the law weakened moral sanctions. Thirdly, there are those who state that the law, though ineffective, is a way of showing society's condemnation, and that repeal would weaken moral condemnation and lead to a change of morality and an increase in permissiveness. I believe this is completely incorrect. People have a very clear idea of what is morally wrong. At the same time they have a very unclear idea of what is against the law. Let me ask this question: what good is there in having a law against homosexuality if the law cannot stop homosexual behaviour? Sending people to prison will not stop them either. There is no point in suggesting that although the penalty is not imposed the law should not be altered. It is our responsibility as legislators to ensure that penalties fit the crimes and that those penalties are applied. Unless the law is more readily enforced than it is at present, fear of being caught will not stop anyone either. In fact, legal enforcement of morality by punishment may be a bad thing. There is a grave danger that the moral sense may wither away and leave only a fear of punishment. To have people conforming through fear and not through belief is not the solution sought even by those who oppose this measure. Everyone has the right to moral views and the right to persuade or educate others to know what is morally right. But the law does not do this, nor should it have this responsibility. Let me repeat my invitation to those members who have argued that the laws and the morals are indivisible. If they consider that lesbian acts are immoral - and I believe that they would hold this point of view - let one of them introduce a Bill making this so. Similarly, if those opposed to the reform in my measure insist that the present law is a bastion for morality, then it is their responsibility to see that the present law is enforced, otherwise their case has no logic. My amendment to the Crimes Act is proposed on the bases of humanity, logic, and equality. I believe New Zealand is a country where these values are held high. I conclude my summary by repeating what I said in my introductory speech. There are times and countries in which humanity becomes lost in laws inherited from the past. Equality, compassion, and logic each demand that parliaments alter such laws. The House divided on the question, That this Bill be now read a second time. Ayes 29 Batchelor; Davey; Douglas, N. V.; Douglas, R. O.; Freer; Gair; Gandar; Gordon; Highet; Holyoake; Hunt; Jack; King; Luxton; Mar- shall, C. R.; Mayson; Moore; Moyle; O'Brien; Rata; Ridley; Rogers; Rowling; Smith; Tal; Walding; Wall. Tellers: Bassett; Young, . S. Noes 34 Adams-Schneider; Allen, K. R.; Barclay, R. M.; Begg; Birch; Bolger; Brooks; Carter; Christie; Colman; Comber; Connelly; Downie; Drayton; Fraser; Gill; Harrison; Holland; Laney; MacDonell; McLachlan; McMillan; Marshall, J. R.; May; Reweti; Sloane; Talbot; Walker; Wilkinson; Williams; Young, T. J.; Young, W. L. Tellers: Thomson; Kirk. Majority against, 5. ‘Motion negatived. The House adjourned at 12. 57 p. m. Note: audio from the end of the second reading debate can be heard here.

IRN: 1252
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_crimes_amendment_bill_second_reading_3_july_1975.html
TITLE: Crimes Amendment Bill - second reading (3 July 1975)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 3 July 1975
YEAR: 1975
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 3 July 1975, New Zealand Parliament. Mr V. S. YOUNG (Egmont) - I move, That this Bill be now read a second time. Approximately 12 months have gone by since I introduced the Crimes Amendment Bill to this House. No one can say that the measure has not had due consideration. One hundred and fifty submissions have been made to the select committee set up specially to study the measure, which in many ways does little more than legalise what is at present in practice. Some of those who argue against a change in the law say, “Why change it if there are few people in prison today for taking part, as consenting adult males, in homosexual acts in private?” However, one would be unrealistic to suggest that the public debate on my amending Bill has not aroused considerable emotion. That in itself is neither unexpected nor undesirable. In this Chamber of legislators we are required to look at the law dispassionately to see that it operates fully and in a humanitarian way, and to see that it operates for the protection of society, particularly the young, the weak, and the dependent. I believe that my Bill meets these requirements, and at the same time corrects a law that is retrogressive. If the Bill is passed it will not be a case of New Zealand leading the world in social reform, as it has done on many occasions in the past, but it will mean the rewriting of New Zealand's laws on homosexual acts to bring them into line with the law in most other English-speaking countries which inherited the original crimes statute from Westminster. I want to take this opportunity of complimenting the chairman of the select committee which studied the measure, and members of the committee, for the understanding manner in which they considered it. I want also to record that almost all of the submissions that came from people who have to face the problems of the homosexual were in favour of my measure. It is true that other groups that made submissions to the committee at that time have subsequently criticised the Bill for not going far enough. However, the Bill does amend the law in a way that is both practical and humanitarian. There has been no substantial evidence to suggest that standards of morality or behaviour have been diminished in those countries where the law has been changed. Not stated in the measure, but implicit in my desire for reform, is a more positive role being adopted by the State in giving assistance to homosexuals who seek counselling. At present this is haphazard to say the least, and the very presence of the law I am seeking to amend deters many people, who would otherwise seek assistance, from doing so. I emphasise that the amendments to the Bill approved by the select committee, though they appear substantial, merely rewrite the measure in a manner considered by the Department of Justice to be better draftsmanship, but include the relatively minor amendments that were suggested by the committee. Apart from the amendment proposed by the member for Porirua, which I shall deal with later, certain exceptions were sought - and they will be provided for in the Committee stage - that will result in the Bill not applying to the armed forces or to police barracks. These amendments were sought by the appropriate departments and do not undermine or diminish the underlying principle or intention of my measure. The reasons for the repeal of sections 141 and 142 of the Crimes Act are: (1) Such a move will reduce human suffering and create better public understanding of the problems of a minority who live within our midst. (2) The present law is illogical. It discriminates against men, while adult women do not face conviction. (3) The law is not enforced, and indeed is impossible to enforce unless the police seek entry to private premises for some other reason. (4) It is not a function of the law to establish moral standards. On the contrary, if these are enforced only by fear, then the law is harmful. (5) The penalties at present provided in the Act are a greater evil than the so-called evil that the Act is designed to prevent. (6) The existence of criminal sanctions discourages homosexuals who, but for these, might seek counselling from a doctor, psychiatrist, or some other qualified person. (7) The repeal of the law would allow the State to take a positive role in ensuring that counselling services were available where they were needed. Apart from those who made submissions to the select committee in favour of the Bill, there are others whose support I acknowledge and appreciate. The Prime Minister has stated publicly that he supports the provisions of my Bill, and I appreciate his support. The Leader of the Opposition is in favour of my Bill. Indeed, outside the House, the leader of the Social Credit Party is in favour of my Bill. Two Labour Party conferences supported the provisions contained in the measure, and the National Party conference has twice decided similarly. At the last National Party conference, delegates voted almost two to one in favour of amending the law at a time when the Bill we are now debating had already been presented to Parliament. Pierre Trudeau in Canada proposed similar legislation for his country, and in the Federal Parliament of Australia, John Gorton, the former Prime Minister, moved that the law in the Australian Capital Territory be reformed along similar lines to those I am advocating in the Crimes Amendment Bill. I shall now give a brief summary of the clauses in the Bill. Clause 2 obviously is the one on which there has been the greatest contention. This clause rewrites section 3 of the Bill introduced last year which provided that homosexual acts in private, between consenting male adults 21 years and over, should no longer be a criminal offence. The major amendment resulting from the select committee deliberations was that the age of consent be reduced to 20 years in these circumstances. The clause is rewritten in a manner which complies better with the accepted forms of law drafting. Clauses 3, 5A and 7 remove acknowledged weaknesses in the present statute regarding procuring, brothel keeping, and prostitution. If passed, these provisions will ensure that the law applies equally to male prostitution as to female prostitution. Clause 7A was included to meet the request of the Ministry of Defence and the Police Department that the amending Bill not apply to the armed forces or to police barracks. I am sure, however, that this exception is sought only for clause 2. Clause 8A makes a minor amendment to the previous clause 8, which referred to past offences. The 1957 Wolfenden report in the United Kingdom sparked off what lawyers know as the Hart-Devlin debate. Lord Devlin, the great English judge, said that law should reinforce morality, and some who oppose my Bill use this as their main argument. Professor Hart said that law and morality are two totally different things. Hart's view has been more widely accepted, and was adopted when the law on homosexual acts was reformed in the United Kingdom in 1967. More importantly, even Lord Devlin publicly admitted that as a practical matter the law against homosexuality did not work and should be rewritten. Almost all the submissions made to the select committee by individuals or organisations that have to face the problems of the homosexual, or who help the homosexual person come to terms with his or her condition, gave evidence in support of a change in the law. These included evidence from the New Zealand Social Workers Association, the Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists, probation officers, lawyers, clergymen, youth counsellors, the New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society, the New Zealand Police Association Officers Guild, the New Zealand Student Christian movement, Quakers, the New Zealand Sociological Association, the New Zealand Psychological Association, and the New Zealand Probation Officers Association. The Methodist Church supports a change in the law. Submissions were given on behalf of the Presbyterian Church in favour of a change. The public questions committee of the general synod of the Anglican Church favours my Bill. Not every church adopts this position. The Roman Catholic Church, together with several others, is opposed to change. There is, however, a division of opinion both within and between churches. During the sittings of the select committee on the Bill I asked the group of churches which gave evidence on the same morning, and which opposed the Bill this very simple but very important question: “If the law I am trying to have removed were not already on the statute book, which of you would be campaigning to have it placed there?” The only group that said it would seek this was the evangelical section of the Anglican Church, whose public questions committee supported the measure under consideration. Father McCormick of the Roman Catholic Social Services, who presented submissions on behalf of Archbishop Delargey, stated in a very full session of questions and replies that homosexual acts should be regarded as social offences rather than criminal offences. The Vicar-General of the Roman Catholic Church stated subsequently that he thought the law should be the same for female homosexuals as it was for male homosexuals. Let me put a similar question to those members of this House who are known to oppose the reform in this Bill. Which of them condones lesbian acts? If the answer is not one, as I expect it would be, then if this measure is not carried I shall await the presentation by one of them of a Bill making lesbian acts illegal, because surely one cannot differentiate between male and female. The Crimes Amendment Bill will not make homosexual acts socially acceptable. It will not open the floodgate to thousands of latent homosexuals who are awaiting a change in the law. What it will do, however, is develop a greater understanding by the community of a small sector which is within our midst whether we like it or not. We know that laws directed only at male adult homosexuals are inefficient and are not implemented. Changing the law is important not only because of the law's contribution to discrimination, but also because of its indirect effect on the community's understanding of homosexuality. Homosexual behaviour between consenting male adults is at present a criminal offence, despite the absence of evidence that such behaviour is harmful to the persons involved or to society in general. The effect of current legislation on the homosexual is to surround a part of his self-identification with feelings of guilt and shame. Nowhere do we find the law affecting the homosexual’s adjustment in any positive way. Such phenomena as sex in public rest rooms, the anonymity of homosexual relationships, the ghettoisation of the homosexual community, are all partly rooted in this criminalisation under the law. It should be obvious that the present law is powerless to prevent homosexuality, and in its feeble attempts to do so it serves only to inflict unnecessary suffering and to bring the law, and those whose duty it is to enforce it, into disrepute. In a declaration on morality and the law on another controversial public issue, the Vatican stated: “The preservation of a law which is not applied is always to the detriment of authority and of all the other laws.” That surely applies to the provisions of the Crimes Act that I seek to amend. Punishing a male homosexual by putting him in an all-male prison also serves no good purpose, yet that is what the present law provides for. However, we are informed that the law is not practised, and some say that the law therefore should not be changed. But to change the law does not change moral values. You can say, “From tomorrow it will be illegal to do X”, but not “From tomorrow it will be immoral to do X.” Morals do not work like that, while laws can and will be changed overnight. Why should people who are against reforming the law say that it means “From tomorow it will be moral to do X”, when it means only “From tomorrow it will be legal to do X”? What must be decided is whether the liberty of the individual is compatible with criminal sanctions on immoral acts in private which involve no one but the persons concerned. The State can punish a public offence because it may harm, frighten, upset, or offend others, but if people choose to do these things in private, are we to make criminals of them? I am convinced that the law itself makes very little difference to the amount of homosexual behaviour that actually occurs. Whatever the law may be, there will always be strong social forces opposed to homosexual behaviour. In the more than 100 years between John Stuart Mill's essay On Liberty, in 1859, and the report of the Wolfenden committee in 1954, there has been a strong tradition that the criminal law should not punish conduct simply because it offends against the accepted moral code. The conduct punishable should be either directly harmful to individuals or to their liberty, or it should jeopardise the collective interest society has in maintaining its organisation. Maintaining a code of morals is not the province of law but should be left to the churches, or education, or to the outcome of free discussion among people. John Stuart Mill said, “The only purpose for which power can rightfully be exercised over any member of a civilised society against his will is to prevent harm to others.” Why then is it that our law maintains that homosexual acts performed in private by consenting adult males are harmful, but never that harm results from such acts by consenting females? The American Law Institute's model penal code describes the law in these words: “The protection to which every individual is entitled is against State interference in his personal affairs when he is not hurting others, and repudiates the idea that the criminal law may be used to enforce on adults a code of sexual behaviour to govern what they do in private.” The Wolfenden report drew the important distinction between the immorality of a practice and the offensive injurious nature of the practice in public. The law can and should punish the latter; it relates to public indecency, but not private immorality. The report stated: “The function of the criminal law is to preserve public order and decency, to protect the citizen from what is offensive or injurious, and to provide sufficient safeguards against the exploitation or corruption of others.” It also stated, “There must remain the realm of private morality and immorality, which is not the law's business.” Parliament is not being asked to pass judgment on the rightness or wrongness of human sexual behaviour in this instance, but to remove legislation that was born of an ignorance of knowledge that is available today. It is being asked to reform the law as has been done in the United Kingdom. Reform of the law in that nation did not lead to a decline in social standards, nor to a vast increase in homosexuality. All but a small percentage of the population is, after all, heterosexual and intends remaining so. I suggest that fears of the negative consequences of repealing the law are supported by neither logic nor evidence. I also suggest that the burden of proof of detrimental consequences resulting from a change in the law should be on the shoulders of those who continue to insist that the law should not be changed. On their own admission the law is not implemented and is impossible to implement; yet they say it should remain on the statute book. May I at this stage comment on the proposed amendment, notice of which has been given to me, to members of the House, and to the public. The member for Porirua proposes to move it if the Bill reaches the Committee stage. Let me say at the outset that I appreciate the support of the member for the principles contained in the main clause of my Bill. During the debate on the introduction of the Bill the member for Porirua made it clear that he was concerned at what he described as the proselytisation of sex, a term which no doubt has a wide definition and means different things to different people. The select committee considered a number of proposals put to it by the member that would have had the Bill amended at that stage, but the committee was unable to accept them. The member has now given notice that at the appropriate stage he will move an amendment which has been well publicised and which I believe is an unnecessary restriction on the basic human rights of freedom of speech and freedom of association. The member says his amendment is being promoted in good faith and for the protection of the young, and I accept that; but I believe there are adequate safeguards in the present legislation. Section 66 of the Crimes Act provides the protection that I believe he seeks. It states: “Everyone is a party to and is guilty of an offence who amongst other things incites, counsels, or procures any person to commit an offence.” That applies to men, where that person is under the age of 20 years. Furthermore, sections 21 and 22 of the Indecent Publications Act give the protection the member for Porirua seeks regarding the dissemination of the written material he considers would be offensive or injurious in the hands of people under 20. What is difficult to understand is that the member limits those who could suggest, even in a counselling situation, that homosexual behaviour is not abnormal in certain circumstances. He limits those who could make that statement to ministers of religion and doctors of medicine, regardless of their qualifications. Mr SPEAKER - Order! I realise that this is a private member's Bill, and our rules of debate do provide that on a second reading a member may refer to an amendment that is to be introduced in the Committee stage. But he cannot actually debate the amendment as such. I hope that members who refer to it will do just that, and refrain from breaking the rules by debating it. Mr V. S. YOUNG - Thank you, Mr Speaker. I thought it proper that I should make those comments. However, let me say in conclusion that I regret I can only agree with those who described the member's amendment as reactionary, Victorian, and out of harmony with the intentions of my Bill. Society has a right to express its preference for heterosexuality, and that right my wife and I affirm, like the vast majority of New Zealanders. But I submit that society, in terms of criminal justice and social justice, does not have a right to turn that preference into prejudice, and at times into persecution of those who, by deep-set inclination or by hereditary factors, are unable to express affection for people of the opposite sex. The time has long since passed when the law should be changed, and New Zealand should follow the lead of the major countries of the Western World in changing it. The change in those countries has not wrought havoc in the relationships between men and women, nor has it reduced the desire of young men and young women to follow their natural sexual inclinations. I am confident that the same will be true when the law is changed in New Zealand. Almost without exception the major groups in society, the police, the Departmenet of Justice, legal, medical and psychological societies, as well as the concerned voluntary associations who have studied the matter in depth, advocate a change in the law, and they support almost entirely the measure I am promoting. There are times and countries where humanity becomes lost in laws inherited from the past. I believe that equity, compassion, and logic each demand that parliaments alter such laws. Dr BASSETT (Waitemata) - I support the Bill in the form in which it was reported back from the select committee early in May. I commend the member for Egmont for introducing the Bill, and for his very fair rendition of what went on in the select committee. The surprise is not that we are debating homosexuality in 1975, but that we have taken so long to get round to it. Britain and Canada debated the subject in the middle 1960s, but many European countries did it long before that. Most states in the United States have changed their laws, and, as the member introducing the Bill has pointed out, there has been debate in the Australian Capital Territory and in some states in Australia, and all of those debates have resulted in a reform of the law which forbade homosexual activity. It says something - I doubt whether it is very flattering - that New Zealand found itself in the front carriage with so many reforms, but in the guard's van of history with this one. The worldwide move towards reform of the law on homosexuality reflects the greater desire by homosexuals themselves to integrate into their community and to play a legitimate part in the community, which we all know they are capable of doing. A recent study on homosexuals that was referred to the select committee contained a report by Hendrik Ruitenbeek. Speaking about homosexuals, he said: “The shift has been from an intense and often guilt-ridden preoccupation with homosexuality to a preoccupation with the homosexual community and the issues which have presented themselves in that community.” Unless as legislators we recognise the profound shift in attitudes among a significant, if small, segment of our population, then we are turning a blind eye to one of the most obvious changes among a minority group in recent times. We have to recognise that people who want to play a significant part in their community cannot do so if they feel themselves to be always lawbreakers. Whether we like it or not, there are a number of males variously estimated at between 4 percent who are exclusive homosexuals, and 10 percent plus who are casual homosexuals. For many of these men no other form of sexual relationship is possible than with their own sex. They come from all walks of life. Many are ordinary workers, many are professional people, yet as the law stands any form of sexual relationship for them involves breaking the law. Before they even start to adjust their lives to society, to take their places within it, and work for its betterment, they are thus outside the law because of their sexual preference. There are not enough good people in the world for any society to be able to rule out from its midst, to deny a feeling of belonging, to some of that minority of people whose sexual desires are different from our own. This Bill brings us to the point where law and morality meet. My own viewpoint can best be expressed by the words of the Canadian Justice Minister, Mr Turner, who, when introducing a Bill to remove the legal penalties against homosexual acts between consenting adult males in private, had this to say to the Canadian House: “The problem of trying to render synonymous law and morality is that we then come down to the question: Whose morality? Whose standards of behaviour? Whose sense of morality? Who is to determine the standard? Who is to attribute the blame? Who is to say what is moral and immoral? Who is to decide when moral responsibility exists in terms of freedom of will, and when it is best diluted in human terms because of environmental or physical causes? In a pluralistic society there may be different standards and differing attitudes, and the law cannot reflect them all. Public order in this situation of a pluralistic society cannot substitute for private conduct. We believe that morality is a matter for private conscience. Criminal law should reflect the public order only.” This Bill attempts - and in my opinion succeeds to some extent - to establish the dividing line between what is criminal and should be the subject of law, and what is private morality. It is a modest Bill that does several things. First, it deletes the crime of indecency for sexual acts between consenting males of 20 or over in private. Secondly, it retains as a crime any sexual act between males where one or both partners are under the age of 20, irrespective of whether there was consent by both parties. Thirdly, the Bill includes a provision that indecency involving a mentally subnormal male, or indecency taking place within a mental hospital, will be an offence. Fourthly, the Bill recognises that the armed forces and the police might wish to retain their own prohibitions against homosexual conduct, whatever the civil law on the subject says. Fifthly, the Bill in no way alters the legal position relating to those under 16, or indeed of men under the age of 20. Sixthly, the Bill does not in any way alter the law on indecent publications. Therefore a suggestion made to the select committee that to alter the law on homosexual acts between consenting adult males in private would result in a flood of indecent literature has no foundation in fact. The Bill also makes minor changes in the sections of the Crimes Act dealing with brothel-keeping and the keeping of places of resort for homosexual acts. Suffice it to say that, despite the fact that section 146 of the Crimes Act is repealed, changes to other sections mean that in no way are the legal safeguards on these matters of brothel-keeping, etc., lowered. The Bill, therefore, is very modest in its scope. Why is it being proposed? I have mentioned the search for social recognition by homosexuals who feel that no other form of sexual activity is possible for them. I should add here that an important point influencing the majority on the select committee was the fact that anything else that might have been done to help the homosexual looked to be doomed to failure. Some people have suggested psychiatric or psychological help, and even shock treatment, to try to change the homosexual’s preference for his own sex, but it was made very clear to the committee that the cure rate - that is, the conversion rate of homosexuals into heterosexuals - has been most discouraging. Psychologists, psychiatrists, social workers, and those engaged in counselling work with homosexuals all testified to the fact that for a mature adult male a change in sexual preference was very close to impossible. To make a homosexual into a heterosexual is virtually impossible. The opposite is also true: it is most difficult to make a homosexual out of a convinced heterosexual. That point should be remembered by those, and there are many, who say that society's sexual preferences are delicately founded and subject to change according to whether the influence is homosexual or heterosexual. The evidence that for a small minority of people heterosexuality is impossible must lead to the conclusion that to those people homosexuality - in their eyes - is normal. No other conclusion is possible, and for those people there are only two choices in life as the law stands: one is self-denial, and the other is lawbreaking. The question is whether society has a right to restrict people to only those choices in a situation where there would be no clear harm done either to an individual or to society were the law to be altered to provide a third choice, that is, sexual expression in certain restricted circumstances. My answer must be that we do not have the right to restrict activity seen by a minority as normal unless, in the expression of that sexuality, some innocent person is harmed in some way. Only then would society have a right to object. The select committee working on this Bill recognised society's right in that regard by leaving offences against minors, and many other unacceptable activities, subject to strong penalities. One other matter of concern to some people is the attitude of the churches. Some witnesses argued that the Bible forbade homosexuality. The inference we were to draw from that was that those who felt drawn to homosexual acts should either desist or face the consequences. If this were the message from God, it must be clear to everyone that it falls heavily on the minority and is of little concern at all to the majority who do not experience the temptation. Fortunately, most of the major denominations accepted the unfairness of such a restricted biblical approach. The Methodist Church's public questions committee reported that its submissions in favour of reforming the Crimes Act were accepted by the overwhelming majority of Methodists consulted. The Quakers reported likewise. The New Zealand Student Christian Movement stressed that, in its interpretation of the Bible, it was the relationship - that is, the love - between people, rather than whether the object was a man or woman, that counted in the eyes of God. The provincial committee on public and social affairs of the general synod of the Anglican Church made a similar point. It added, and I quote from its submissions: “As it stands the law treats homosexuals acts between consenting males as more serious than heterosexual acts such as adultery. This seems too inequitable.” The committee supported reform of the law, and so too did the public questions committee of the Presbyterian Church, which first advocated a change in the law in 1968. I quote from its submissions: “While not supporting homosexuality, or regarding it in any way as normal, we believe it is only just that homosexual acts in the case of consenting adults in private should be removed from the criminal code.” The Catholic Church, on the other hand, was officially opposed to reform, although some Catholics have been outspokenly opposed to the official position. I think it fair to say that, within the church as a whole, and within individual churches in particular, there is a continuing debate on the subject, with the consensus tending to favour reform. Having accepted the need for reform, may I say a word about those who, for the best of motives, would move amendments to restrict writings, counselling, or discussion with people under the age of 20 on the subject of homosexuality. There can be no doubt that such people are misguided, even if well intentioned. First, the restrictions will not achieve the stated aims. The evidence was clear that it is very difficult to make a heterosexual into a homosexual. Secondly, the law as it stands provides safeguards against many wrongful acts against minors. Thirdly, in attempting to do what is therefore unnecessary, many precious civil liberties belonging to innocent people could be trampled upon. I am certain I speak for most law reformers when I say that if the price of reform is the acceptance of such restrictive amendments, it is too high a price to pay. Finally, I commend the member for Egmont for having introduced the Bill, and I say - and I think members need to say this - that he has suffered much as a result of carrying the burden of this measure for 12 months. The Bill, as it appears before the House now, is careful in its wording. It recognises the times, and it recognises what I believe to be the mood. It is a Bill worthy of support. Hon. R. D. MULDOON (Leader of the Opposition) - I have listened very carefully to the two speeches, one from either side of the House, by members who have been closely associated with the select committee hearings on this Bill. I do not propose to take up the time of the House by traversing similar ground, because I could not analyse the Bill nearly as effectively as they have done. My purpose in rising at this time, apart from wishing to make some personal comments on the Bill, is to state and to underline that, for members of the National Party both inside and outside the House, this question is one for individual conscience and decision. I was astonished to receive a letter as recently as this week from someone who referred to this measure as National Party policy. We in the House know what is meant by a conscience vote. It is a fact that the two speakers so far, both of whom favour the Bill, have come from opposite sides of the House, and I have not the slightest doubt that, before the debate is ended, speakers from both sides of the House will oppose the Bill. It is astonishing to me that, having had the experience of the Bill introduced by the member for Porirua earlier this session, which was treated in exactly the same way, some people apparently still do not realise what a vote of this nature in the House is; so if I take a moment or two to underline and emphasise this point, it is simply in the interests of clarity. The Bill is a private member's Bill introduced by the member for Egmont after deep consideration of the subject. It has been to a select committee and has been reported back with a favourable recommendation, it was considered by a two-party select committee, which reported it back to the House with a favourable recommendation by a majority, not unanimously. In the House every individual member will vote on it according to his own views and his own conscience. There will be no Whips as such operating in the debate. Those who wish to speak will rise in their places and be recognised by some mysterious system known only to Mr Speaker on an occasion such as this. The Bill does not represent party policy on either side. As I understand it, both the Prime Minister and I–and, as I was informed tonight by the member in charge of the Bill, the leader of the Social Credit Party as well - support the Bill. Indeed, I would be astonished if the leader of the Values Party did not also support it. Therefore it is clear that at no time does it become a party political matter in that sense. Deep feelings are held on this matter, and there is no doubt that many members of Christian churches, and particularly those of the more fundamental type, are deeply opposed to the measure on what one could term biblical grounds. In my view they are taking - if one could use the term - an Old Testament rather than a New Testament approach - “Old Testament” in terms of the black-andwhite approach to morality or sin, as it is perhaps more explicitly termed, rather than the “New Testament” or compassionate approach to these matters. My colleague the member for Waikato will doubtless quote the New Testament to me in support of his view, which differs from mine. Nevertheless, I believe that if one wants to approach this matter in the biblical sense, there is at least that broad distinction. My approach to the Bill is that of a member who has had sufficient time to consider the matter deeply without being a member of the select committee, and my decision is made principally on compassionate grounds. As a member of Parliament and before being a member of Parliament I have had the opportunity, as many people have, of seeing the misery that can be caused to decent - and I use that term in the widest possible sense - law-abiding New Zealanders who happened, through some accident of nature, to be homosexual. The names of people in that situation, many of whom have been outstanding New Zealanders, would surprise the majority of citizens if they were known; but those same people have lived through in some cases distinguished careers with this shadow hanging over them constantly: that something in their nature which I personally regard as abnormal, as do most New Zealanders, is not simply sinful - if one can use that term - but a crime. I draw a distinction, as did the member for Egmont, between a social offence and a criminal offence. In my view this is not a criminal offence and should not be so treated, but that in no way suggests that it is normal or other than immoral. It is interesting that some prominent people who have been associated with organisations such as the Society for the Protection of Community Standards and the Society for the Protection of the Unborn Child support the Bill. They are people who have thought deeply on these issues and have decided, I think for compassionate reasons, that the suggested reform of the law is desirable. There has been considerable misunderstanding of the effect of this amendment on minors. The Bill increases the penalty for child molestation, and the member for Egmont very clearly and definitely set his face against that. It is in the area where the law has never been enforced, and will never be enforced except by accident, that it is proposed to make this kind of activity no longer a crime. To do it will change very little except in one important respect: it will lift the intolerable burden that is hanging over many people who, in spite of what anyone may say about the modern practice of psychology, medicine, psychiatry - call it what you will - are homosexuals and will remain homosexuals. That is what the Bill sets out to do. I commend the member for Egmont, as I did the member for Porirua earlier this session, for bringing in a measure such as this for our consideration. He has been under a very heavy burden for the last 12 months. A private member bringing in a Bill in this controversial area has to carry all of the pressure that a Minister in charge of a controversial Government Bill has to carry, but without having his colleagues around him to help sustain him and help fight his battles; and the pressures are much greater and much harder to bear for a private member. I believe that this Parliament over the years will be the better for the introduction of private members’ Bills in this field of what one must call social legislation. We know that public attitudes change over the years. It is very difficult for Parliament to move ahead of the changing attitudes of the people. One occasion when we did some years ago was on the question of capital punishment. I believe it took a man of similar character, the late Ralph Hanan, prepared to face up to public pressures, to initiate the action that abolished capital punishment in this country. Regardless of whether or not this Bill gains the approval of the House, I commend the member for Egmont for bringing it before us, and I want him to know that his colleagues, whether they support his Bill or not, do feel for him in the circumstances in which he has found himself during the past 12 months. I go back to what I said at the beginning and underline the fact that for National Party members, both inside and outside the House, although we have passed resolutions at our party conferences on the issue, their attitudes in this debate and any debate that may follow are up to their individual consciences. We have taken no test in caucus as to who is going to vote which way. I do not know which way the members on this side will vote, apart from individuals who have expressed their views to me. That should be underlined, and I am sure the same is the case on the Government side. That is the way the debate will be carried on, and the way the vote will be taken. Mr BLANCHFIELD (West Coast) - Although this amendment will draw only a brief speech from me, I can conscientiously state that I have studied the law as it stands, I have studied the amendment Bill introduced by the member for Egmont, and I have studied the proposed further amendment by the member for Porirua. Homosexuality demands years of study by experts, with the result of their studies being passed on to anybody involved in the welfare of humanity. There are two main factors in the amendment Bill, as I see it. After reading through thousands of pages of books, reports, and submissions over the last few months, I have come to the conclusion that the truism “the greatest good for the greatest number” must be foremost in debating and voting. I sincerely believe that the law as it stands does not nearly equate the damage that would be done by giving the green light to homosexuality as the member's amendment would do. In my long experience of high-ranking police officers who authorise prosecutions, I do not know of any prosecution of two wellknown, respected adult males, locked away from the public gaze, indulging in homosexual activities - only prosecutions when incidents have taken place in alleyways or toilets, or when a child has been molested. There may have been one or two cases I do not know about where jealousy or hatred could have caused complaints, but barging into locked bedrooms in private premises is almost unknown. If any members of the House know of police activity like that, I implore them to speak out and give general statistics without being specific. A growing section of New Zealanders will be influenced by the gay libbers' way of life. Theirs is definitely not a good example for New Zealanders to set their standards by. I do not want to be emotional, but the gay libbers want the age of consent brought down to 16. That is not in the amendment, but that is what they want, and it will not be long before they want it lower still if this amendment is passed tonight. We hear much about zero population growth but if this style of life grows, the natural idea of procreation could go by the board and we will get near to zero population growth. I say, perish the thought! The difference now is that in recent years society has asked the homosexual to change his ways, but now the homosexual demands that society change its ways. The ramifications of this movement are enormous, and I am very dubious about what will happen to our people in the future. The implication is nothing less than a radical new society. I hope the member for Egmont realises the way the gay libbers are going. Their endeavours to create an atmosphere of happy comradeship are only a facade; the movement is as full of social dynamite as Guy Fawkes' barrels were of political gunpowder. This group presents a bold, even a defiant front, and many are definitely militant. Police activities seem to be the background of one or two of the speeches tonight, and of the amendment Bill. The speeches conjure up ideas of blackmail, corruption, and all sorts of things that would perhaps pertain to Watergate, but I would say that, from my knowledge of the police, they are hot against the blackmailer. They will chase a blackmailer just as quickly as they will chase a murderer, and they will not let up on him. In any case of a blackmailer against a decent citizen, I know whose side I will be on - the side of the police. Blackmail is one of our worst crimes, and any genuine policeman will make a blackmailer the bull'seye of his target. The Leader of the Opposition or the member for Egmont mentioned child molesters. I am hot on them too, but they would be encouraged by the green light that New Zealand society, through this Bill, would give to homosexual relations being carried on with a minimum of public resentment. We must show in no uncertain manner that we are hot against child molesters. There is no question in the minds of doctors, teachers, welfare officers, clergymen, and parents that the child molester should be universally detested. Before I sit down I should like to quote a medical authority whom I consider to be as good as any of the many who will probably be quoted tonight. I will settle for him. He is Mr J. F. Gwynne, pathologist and anatomist, biologist, M. D., F. R. C. P. A., M. R. C., Dunedin. He says: “I believe individuals exhibit abnormal behaviour who indulge in homosexuality. Normality can only be defined by generally accepted standards, and I admit that I personally see homosexual acts as contrary to generally accepted standards of sexual conduct.” In a very well-written letter this biologist and anatomist concludes by saying: “I would stress again, as I did earlier, the significance of the creation of new human life in the heterosexual relationship, which is entirely divorced from consenting sexual acts between males.” That is where the zero population will come in if this thing gets too far out of hand. Professor Gwynne says in his summary: “I believe that homosexuals should be regarded by society with sympathy and understanding, but an acceptance of their actions as a normal variant of human behaviour degrades heterosexual relationships to the serious detriment of the family and society in general.” I shall vote against the amendment Bill, I shall vote against the further amendment, and I hope that New Zealand will still be New Zealand as it has been since our pioneer fathers landed here and set a standard of behaviour of which we can well be proud. Hon. DAVID THOMSON (Stratford) - I oppose the second reading of the Crimes Amendment Bill which seeks to legalise sodomy and indecent acts between adult consenting males. The criminal law in our country does not condemn the human condition; it does not condemn a person for being a homosexual; but it does condemn homosexual acts, because it is not the homosexual condition that is the threat to society and to the individual - it is the indulgence in homosexual acts that destroys human dignity. I praised the action of the member for Egmont in bringing this matter before Parliament, and I still respect him for doing that, although I oppose the intent of his Bill. The original Bill contained a proposal that these acts should be lawful between consenting males of 21 years and over. The Bill as reported back from the select committee after 6 months’ hearing of evidence brought the age down to 20. I remind honourable members who might support this proposal that the age of 20 is not the last of it. There are proposals abroad in this country, supported by very powerful social forces, that the age should be lowered to 16, the age that is known as the age of consent in respect of heterosexual acts. To indicate the forces at work overseas I quote from the New Citizen, the newspaper of the Methodist Church in Britain, an article entitled “Christians tangle over sex law reform”. This states that the British Sexual Law Reform Society, “chaired by Bishop John Robinson and involving such well-known Christians as Monica Furlong and Lord Beaumont of Whitley, recommends lowering the age of consent to 14 (for heterosexual and homosexual acts).” So if any honourable member thinks he will see the end of the matter by supporting this Bill, which proposes making these acts lawful between males of 20 years of age, clearly he will not. The Anglican Church's committee on public and social affairs, in evidence to the select committee, said in a letter dated 17 February: “It was argued against a change to 18 or 16 that it would create difficulties for discipline in some schools. Eighteen is perhaps less open to objection from this angle because it would involve fewer still at school. What all this amounts to is that we’ - that is, the Anglican Church's committee on public and social affairs - “would not be opposed to the Justice Department's suggestion that the age of consent be 18.” And the Methodist Church in its evidence said: “In support of reducing the age to 16 years in the proposed amendment it is noted that a girl of 16 years may consent to carnal knowledge with a man. It is difficult to find reasons that would permit such a girl to make a decision concerning her sexual conduct with either a male or a female (for female homosexuality does not come within the purview of the law)” - that is not quite factual - “but yet deny that same right and responsibility to a 16-year-old male. The Methodist public questions committee favours substituting 18 years for 21 years in clause 3, but would not oppose the alternative suggestion of 16 years.” The Society of Friends - the Quakers - said in its evidence: “One quibble would be whether or not the age of 21 is the best age at which to define the boundary between legality and illegality. It is known that a fair amount of casual and superficial homosexual experimentation goes on during adolescence, and we recommend that consideration be given to lowering the age of consent to 18.” So let no honourable member who supports this Bill think that its passing will end the matter. If this Bill is passed there will be enormous pressure on members in the future to bring the age of consent to the common figure of 16 for both heterosexual and homosexual acts. Actions listed in our statutes as crimes are those acts of deviant human behaviour which our society over the years has dedecided require censure. They also act as a danger sign, a warning to individuals within society, that if one goes beyond that limit one can easily find oneself in a quicksand, in real trouble. I believe that in this group of sections of the Crimes Act which deal with sexual offences the warning is as important to society as the actual offence. Certainly I do not think, except perhaps in sexual crimes involving violence, that society has any desire to inflict vindictive punishment. That is certainly not so where homosexual acts are concerned. Evidence has been given that there were no adult male homosexuals in prison in recent years for that offence alone. Indeed, there is no obligation on our courts under our law to send those guilty of homosexual offences to prison, and there is ample evidence to indicate that imprisonment is not the most helpful way to rehabilitate such offenders. But the seriousness with which we regard the various acts which we have labelled as crimes depends upon their effect upon the life and dignity of the individual and of society as a whole, on the security and preservation of property, and on certain abstract values such as honesty and decency which we have regarded as essential to the maintenance of a healthy society. Of course, the deviant sexual acts labelled as crimes draw penalties related to our own judgment of their effect, having regard to the circumstances of the offence. The offence of murder involves a penalty of life imprisonment, and the acts of the homosexual are regarded by the proposers of the change as equal to murder where an adult offends against a minor. It is argued that the law causes homosexuals to commit suicide, but I believe it is the act and not the law that causes the loss of dignity, and difficulty in sustaining any purpose in life. Again, it is argued by many of those who support the Bill that homosexuals cannot help themselves. I do not believe that to be true. I believe there is an element of choice, even although I accept that there are enormous pressures on people who have a homosexual condition –pressures brought about very often by environmental factors in early childhood. Modern research indicates that such factors, and not a genetic variation, are the main cause of a homosexual condition. I do not accept the idea of predestination, and I believe that society has an obligation to do all it possibly can to help those who have difficulties with their human condition. That does not require society to go so far as to give a colour of right and propriety to acts which are now criminal and which degrade human dignity and undermine social values. I know it is argued that New Zealand has retained the law as it is long beyond the change in Britain, Canada, Australia, and other places. I find myself totally unmoved by that argument, because I feel no compulsion to keep up with the Joneses, nor am I persuaded by that slick sophism, attributed to a North American politician, that the State has no right to pry into the bedrooms of the citizens. If murder is committed in the bedroom, the State must be there. I believe, too, that if there is indecency the State is also concerned, because it is concerned with each and every individual in society. During the hearing in the select committee the honourable member for Porirua, whose stand on public decency is undoubted, introduced a proposal that the law should prevent discussion or advocacy of homosexual consorting - and I use that word in a general way; I do not have the suggested amendment before me. I argued against the member's suggestion because, if the House accepted this Bill, those acts between adult consenting males would become lawful. When certain acts are given a colour of right and propriety in that way I do not think that Parliament should say it is wrong to talk to young people about them. One cannot right a wrong in that way. We are concerned to retain freedom of speech, and I cannot accept the proposal put forward by the member for Porirua. Every member has a very considerable duty to take care in his decision on this Bill, because if the Bill is passed it will be the beginning of a long road of weakening society's defences. I agree with the description given by the member for Porirua on 28 May, as published in the Evening Post. Advocating his amendment, he described homosexual involvement as having disastrous consequences. There is no need for any of us, whichever way we feel about this Bill, to suggest that there is any lack of compassion in those who are on the other side of the argument. As the Metropolitan of New Zealand, Archbishop Delargey, said in evidence before the committee, “The question of the place and plight of the homosexual in our society is one of grave concern”. I believe it is of grave concern to all of us, whatever side of the argument we take on this Bill. The Archbishop went on to say: “It demands at all times serious understanding, genuine compassion, and the sincere attempt to express human encouragement despite the difficulties that surround us. It must be made clear we do not reject, condemn, or in any way sit in judgment on the homosexual.” I will continue to oppose this Bill at every opportunity, and if Parliament decides to pass it I will continue to oppose any lowering of the age of consent that would be involved. I have had much experience of service in the armed forces. As honourable members know, for nearly 3 years I was in a totally male society as a prisoner of war. Perhaps more than most members I have reason to know the strains that are placed upon men, and I have no doubt at all that this Bill will not help those who do have a homosexual condition, but will harm our society and every individual in it. Mr C. R. MARSHALL (Wanganui) - May I say again that I would like to indicate my warm support for this measure, and my support for the member for Egmont and his courage in not only introducing the Bill but also in seeing it through to this stage. I congratulate the member for Waitemata on his chairmanship of the committee and for the contribution he made to the debate earlier this evening. I want to repeat some of the points I made on the first reading nearly 12 months ago, firstly to support the Homosexual Law Reform Society for the fact that for 8 years now it has waged a very sensible and thoughtful campaign in order to try to have the existing law altered. The major reasons for the society's support of the legislation have already been outlined by the member for Egmont. I would like again to remind the House that this measure has very wide support in the community, from Jaycees at the national level, from a number of branches of the National Council of Women, from the Council for Civil Liberties, from the Howard League for Penal Reform, from the New Zealand University Students Association, from both major political parties at their national conferences, from the Values Party in its election manifesto and, as we have heard tonight, from the Social Credit Party at its leadership level at least, and from a number of groups around the country who made submissions to the select committee. Over the years other countries have sought to remove this discriminatory law. The law was altered in England and Wales in 1967, in Canada in 1970, in South Australia in 1972, in the Australian Capital Territory in 1973, and each year one or two states of the United States makes similar changes in their laws. Most Western European countries, however, have no legal prohibition on homosexual acts, at least in private, and have not had such a provision for many years. In 1967, under President Lyndon Johnson, a task force on homosexuality was established. Unfortunately, that task force reported back after a change of Government, with the effect that the recommendations have not been heeded at federal level. On that task force were 15 people who were regarded as outstanding behavioural, medical, social, and legal experts in their own country. They reported back in October 1969, and 12 of the 15 made these remarks, amongst others: “Although many people continue to regard homosexual activities with repugnance, there is evidence that public attitudes are changing. Discreet homosexuality, together with many other aspects of human sexual behaviour, is being recognised more and more as the private business of the individual rather than a subject for public regulation through statute. Many homosexuals are good citizens holding regular jobs and leading productive lives. The existence of legal penalties relating to homosexual acts means that the mental health problems of homosexuals are exacerbated by the need for concealment and the emotional stresses arising from this need and from the opprobrium of being in violation of the law. On the other hand, there is no evidence suggesting that legal penalties are effective in preventing or reducing the incidence of homosexual acts in private between consenting adults. A number of eminent bodies, the British Wolfenden Commission, the Ninth International Congress on Criminal Law, and the American Law Institute in its model penal code, have all recommended, after extensive studies, that statutes covering sexual acts be recast in such a way as to remove legal penalties against acts in private among consenting adults.” The member for Egmont - and other members have alluded to this issue as well - indicated the division of opinion amongst the churches. I think most members are by now aware that at a national level the Methodist Church, the Presbyterian Church, and the Society of Friends support the provisions of this Bill; the executive committee of the National Council of Churches supported it in a resolution passed in April last year; the Anglican Church's public questions committee, as we have heard tonight, supported the legislation in its submission; and although the Roman Catholic Church officially opposes the legislation, we are aware that a number of laymen and religious of the church support the measure. I remind members of the letter I distributed to them which came from a number of priests in the Canterbury area, and I quote a couple of observations from that letter dated 20 May: “We support the amendments to the Crimes Act relating to homosexual offences. The following considerations have led us to give support to these amendments. (a) We have some experience as priests of the social discrimination which is practised against homosexuals. It is our concern that this discrimination can lead to a victimisation of homosexuals in their occupations and in their social life. (b) While Roman Catholic moral teaching proscribes homosexual acts, it also proscribes victimisation of others. That teaching provides no warrant for issuing constant public condemnations of homosexuals or for arousing unjustifiable anxiety or unreasonable fear of those who openly acknowledge themselves to be homosexual. (c) Roman Catholic priests are offered guidance to equip them to assist those who experience their homosexuality as a source of serious personal difficulty. This guidance reflects an appreciation of homosexuality as one of the most sensitive facets of human sexuality. For this reason Roman Catholic priests are required to offer advice to homosexuals with more than usual reticence, and give guidance without fear that this is indicative of an attitude of misplaced tolerance or moral laxity.” I think it can be fairly seen from what I have said that quite a number of people in each church have a point of view mainly in support of the member for Egmont's legislation. I refer now to the question of public opinion. Many members of Parliament, on this issue and other such moral issues, are rather sensitive about the attitudes that voters may take, and I think there is a misplaced belief that the majority of the population is against the Bill. I would like to refer members to the Heylen poll the results of which were published in the magazine Thursday on 28 March last year. From a random sample of 1,000 respondents, the answer to the question “Should the law allow homosexual acts between consenting adults in private?” was: yes, 53. 9 percent, and no, 38. 9 percent. Those people who did not know or who had no opinion numbered 7. 2 percent. I would like to point out the makeup of this House in comparison with the people who responded to that survey. The survey showed that women were a little more liberal on this issue than men, 55. 8 percent of them favouring liberalisation of the law, as against 52. 1 percent of men. It also showed that people under 40 years were considerably more liberal about the issue than people over 40. Of those under 40 years, 64. 8 percent were in favour of changing the law, whereas only 39. 8 percent of those over 40 favoured a change in the law. All of us are aware that the majority of members in this House are male and over 40 years, and I hope that we realise that on this issue the New Zealand male aged over 40 is considerably at variance in his opinion with the rest of the population. The last reference I wish to make is to an article published in the New Zealand Law Journal in January 1972 by Dr D. L. Mathieson. Dr Mathieson, who has long been a strong supporter of this change in legislation, pointed out the following arguments in favour of the change. The first argument, he said, is essentially humanitarian. “To change the law will significantly reduce the sum total of human suffering in our midst.” Secondly, “the present law discriminates between male homosexual acts which are criminal, and lesbian homosexual acts which are not. The third argument is that the present law is hypocritically and very haphazardly enforced, and the fourth argument is that if a homosexual act is a ‘social evil’, which is something different from saying it is immoral, the exposure and the punishment of the actor is a greater evil than the evil it is designed to prevent.” In that article Dr Mathieson went on to make some interesting comments about morality and the strange way in which attitudes to the law become confused with attitudes towards morality. He made these points. “Can the law preserve morality? Or, in this particular area, is the most that it can achieve a higher measure of conformity? Surely a person acts ‘morally’ when he chooses to do what he thinks is right because he thinks it is right. If someone keeps a promise simply because there is a law against breaking promises - which there is not - or desists from a homosexual act for no other reason than that there is a law against such acts - which there is - that is not acting ‘morally’. It is conforming to the pattern of conduct which society approves. An enforced morality is an empty morality. Of course, a person may have mixed motives: he may simultaneously fear being caught and prosecuted, and morally disapprove that act which the law prohibits. So he desists. A fair observer would ascribe proportionately less moral value to that decision to desist. Morality, then, must be distinguished from conformity. The present law puts pressure on homosexuals to conform - to the extent to which it is successful in this endeavour it has not done anything to preserve the morality of our society.” As I said at the outset, I favour this Bill. I think that if we in this House do not support its passage we will be turning our face against an advance in moral standards in our society and turning our face against the rest of the world and the majority of people in our country. I am sure that in years to come, as people look back to this debate, they will realise that this Bill, if we pass it, will have been at long last a landmark in the growing social conscience of our society. Mr W. L. YOUNG (Miramar) - Society is widely divided on the matter of homosexuality, and that divergence of views comes through very clearly in the expression of opinion we have had from members tonight. The Bill before us has been before a select committee, which itself was divided on this matter. It comes back with amendments, one of which I will in due course make specific reference to. The member for Egmont, who promoted this Bill, did so with a sense of compassion. His objective was to liberalise the law relating to homosexual acts between consenting adults. I believe his sympathy was not well founded. Homosexuality has existed throughout the ages. Even so, this does not mean that the practice can be considered a normal one, or should be encouraged. Society generally does not desire the persecution of adult homosexuals who, in all other ways, desire to be normal and useful citizens; and I subscribe to this view. They should not be pursued. We have had notice of a further amendment from the member for Porirua, and I state my position on this and say that I will not support it, because to my mind it savours of pursuance. Society, like the member who promoted this Bill, endeavours to have an understanding of a situation it does not encourage. When a homosexual seeks help it should be readily available, and there should be no suggestion by any who oppose this Bill, that there is any thought of sitting in judgment on homosexuals or their activities. The reason given for the amendment to clause 2 suggested by the select committee, which reduces the age from 21 to 20, is hard to follow. My sympathy towards the Bill would have been increased if the age had been raised from 21 to 25. Should this Bill become law it will give legal status to homosexuality being established at 20. The argument could then be advanced, as stated by the member for Stratford, that the age could be reduced. If a person can vote at 18 and fight for his country at 18, that becomes a valid reason for reducing the age of consenting participants to 18 if in fact it is established that there should be the amendment to the law which this Bill proposes. To reduce the age to 18 would be quite undesirable. There could be legal homosexual activities among secondary school pupils. Parents will realise the significance of my views, and substantially support the views I hold and express. The increasing of the penalty from 10 to 14 years for indecency between a man and a boy would deter few if any who contemplated this illegal activity. It is too much to believe that anyone who has this activity in mind weighs up that the penalty has been extended from 10 to 14 years. That person seeks to escape penalty either by avoiding detection or by hoping that parents, in order to avoid indelibly imprinting the unhappy incident on the young person's mind, will not seek a prosecution. I have said that we must have compassion and some understanding of homosexuals and their problems, but I have made it clear that homosexuality is not to be encouraged. It does not strengthen society; it will not strengthen the family unit. Therefore, nowithstanding all the compassion I can command, I cannot move to legalise homosexual practices and so give them the implied blessing of legality. Hon. MICHAEL CONNELLY (Minister of Police) - As I indicated when this Bill was introduced, I oppose it on the grounds that homosexuality is an unnatural habit and that changing the law to legalise the practice will not make it natural. Homosexuals require medical treatment, not a change in the law. There is another facet as well. If, by a change in the law, this practice is given a cloak of respectability, it will not stop with 20year-olds or 16-year-olds; it will be boys next. If confirmation of that is required, it is provided by spokesmen on behalf of homosexuals who, when the original Bill was introduced, and also in evidence before a select committee of this House, claimed that the so-called age of consent in this Bill should be lowered, and advocated that it should be lowered well below the age of 20 provided in the amended Bill before the House. I cannot believe that mothers with young daughters, who are already worried about the possibility of their being violated, and who have young sons as well, can be happy at this further worry which some people seem bent on imposing on them - the worry of knowing their young boys will also be at greater risk as well. The same worry must also be felt by mothers whose only children are boys, and by those who may yet have sons. Once it is known by young and immature people that adults treat homosexuality as an acceptable practice, they will tend to be influenced in favour of this unnatural practice when in fact it should be discouraged. Some who support this Bill justify their approach by a claim that attempts to cure homosexuals with drugs, by psychotherapy, and by behaviour therapy, have had limited success. That is a poor argument, and that view is widely rejected by a commentator by the name of Court, who, after surveying recent reports of successful treatment of homosexuals, said: “It is now possible to refute categorically the view that the homosexual cannot be effectively treated.” The same type of view is put by a group of people in my electorate who studied the matter. They wrote to me, saying in part: “We must not be swayed by those who would tell us that homosexual relationship is normal. That would be contrary to biological, medical, and psychological sense.” Then they go on to say: “What then should be our attitude to the homosexual? First we must realise that he must be treated as a person who needs help and counsel, as psychological factors are the most significant in causing homosexuality . . . We do not wish to shun the homosexual as a person - that is extremely important - but we believe that his acts must be discouraged lest moral and social corruption in our society increases and lest indecent acts against minors and incapables become more prevalent.” They advocate, amongst other things, the power of medical referral substantially in cases where homosexuals appear before the court and where homosexuality has been a factor in crime. Homosexuality is a medical matter, and thus this Bill introduced by the member for Egmont, providing for a change in the law, is not the appropriate way of dealing with it. What is required is the ready availability of medical treatment and counselling to help these people with their problem; and that is the approach which I believe this House should adopt. Mr KIRK (Sydenham) - I rise to speak against the second reading of this Crimes Amendment Bill with the sad awareness that society in New Zealand is at risk of becoming as untidy and unkempt as those of many of the other Western nations. It is a poor and sad state of affairs that something which could be a catalyst to future social breakdown should be supported in debate with the conviction of those members who support the second reading of this Bill. Those who support this Bill are blinding New Zealand with a wordy and hypothetical argument. The average New Zealander will not be fooled. He does not want this measure. In the job of gaining political support for their cause, the homosexual reformers have probably accomplished the greatest public relations job yet. A small percentage of people has been able to influence many in this Chamber who have been elected by a majority. Members of the public did not elect on this basis last time. They will not be gullible, and the member for Egmont and his supporters in this Chamber will no doubt find out what it is to carry a cross. There is a price. Why do they not stop seeking self reassurance by referring to religion or public opinion polls. They only cite the information that suits their cause. Supporters of the Bill repeatedly refer to the fact that this or that country has introduced it. Can they not make a case without leaning on comparative legislation? Why do they not try to make their case with ordinary New Zealanders, the New Zealanders who attend rugby clubs, working men's clubs, and the like? They would be prudent to ask those people. I did, and I know what they say. It beats me why they offer all the arguments in the world to achieve social breakdown. This Bill, if passed, will not slake the thirst of liberationists; it will only whet their appetite. How much freedom does the member for Egmont require? Taken to its natural conclusion, it would not be long before further breakdowns occurred. This Bill represents the people who are adherents to the permissive society syndrome, the people who say that in this and other unacceptable ways they can do as they like. In their ham-fisted grab in response to these pressure groups, there are members in this Chamber who are prepared to give up, on behalf of our society, levels of living so jealously and rightly maintained in the past. We should be people who help the weak, I agree; but we are not helping the weak by bringing down legislation which condones them. I will not vote to condone, and neither will the average New Zealander. One wonders why the almost matter-offact acceptance of the exceptions proposed for the Police and the Army are only mentioned in passing by the member for Egmont and the member for Waitemata. Why the exception? When they dish out their principal revelations, why do they so quietly accept these exceptions? Why the difference? It would seem to indicate a recognition that it would not be acceptable to the Army or the Police, both groups employing average New Zealanders. New Zealand is full of average New Zealanders. If it is no good for the Army or the Police, then it is no good for New Zealand. If it is not acceptable to the Army or the Police, why is an exception not provided for the Ministry of Works? New Zealand wants a decent society based on sound experience and tolerance - not a society darting here and there on the vacillations of intellectual claptrap. We have had an undermining by these people. When will we see the collapse? It also appears to me that there has been an unnatural and large amount of time, intelligence, and energy squandered on a small group of people. I wish a quarter of the time, intelligence, and energy spent on this group could find effective application in areas of constructive aid to the physically and mentally disadvantaged people of New Zealand. Perhaps this kind of effort does not attract the attention of people in the scramble for publicity about themselves. Perhaps the task of devoting concentrated and demanding effort to the socially underprivileged must take second place to the pussyfooting and bandwagoning which has taken place over the gaunt, not gay, Bill of the member for Egmont, the Crimes Amendment Bill. We must be mindful of what is next. It has been made more than obvious that these people require more of what they wrongly term “social advance” within their own group than is contained in this Bill. I oppose the second reading. Hon. L. R. ADAMS-SCHNEIDER (Waikato) - As I said when the Bill was introduced on 24 July of last year, I do not support the liberalisation of the law that it proposes, but I certainly recognise the right of the member for Egmont to introduce it. I know he has given very deep consideration to the subject, and that it was only after further such consideration that he made a decision to support the principle and to go as far as introducing a Bill. In doing so he places upon us all the responsibility of dealing with this Bill, or, putting it another way, he has given us the opportunity of debating it as lawmakers, as the people the country has sent here to legislate. I, too, have studied this matter over a period of years, particularly earlier on when I was undertaking certain studies, including theological studies. As the member for Waitemata said earlier tonight, it was and it is a matter for continuing debate in theological circles. I accept that prople, all of whom want the best for our society, are very definitely divided on this issue. I know that priests, ministers, and members of Christian churches are so divided, but from my own knowledge I believe it can be clearly shown that the majority of the broad-stream evangelicals in the individual churches are opposed, and strongly opposed, to the liberalisation of the law. My colleague, the Leader of the Opposition, used the expression “Christian people with a fundamental approach”. That is the same as saying “evangelical approach”, I think. Mr Luxton - The Exclusive Brethren. Hon. L. R. ADAMS-SCHNEIDER - I do not think they made any statement at all, but I can tell the member for Piako that the Open Brethren assemblies and other evangelical groups have made definite statements, and indeed made statements to the committee. I think the honourable member was a member of the select committee, and I will remind him of those representations in a few minutes' time. These people do not lack sympathy and understanding for the homosexual, but they are convinced that to legalise the act is to encourage it, and that to encourage it is bad for the nation. That is where they stand, and that is the message they are trying to give. They state, and I believe correctly, that the act is condemned in the Scriptures, both in the Old and the New Testaments, and it is their view that in this day and age we and the Churches by and large seem to be forgetting the undoubted power of redemption. They believe that past civilisations decayed and eventually perished because homosexual practices were either lawful or condoned, or even encouraged. I refer to the submissions made by the Open Brethren assemblies to the select committee: “We write on behalf of the majority of Christians known as Open Brethren through New Zealand to express our concern over and opposition to the Crimes Amendment Bill at present under consideration by Parliament, which would have the effect of removing the criminal penalty from homosexual acts in certain circumstances.” The submissions quote a series of scriptural statements from the law of the Old Testament through to Romans I, 26-27, I Corinthians 2, 9 and 10. The reference in Romans, of course, is to lesbian as well as male homosexual practices, and they point out that the historic references in the Old Testament are taken up in the doctrinal teaching of the New Testament; and therefore, they say, this is something that should not be practised by Christian people, but also that, because of the facts of history, we should not legislate for it - it is not good for the nation. I have here a letter sent to me by the Merivale Christian Fellowship. I do not know any members of this fellowship, and I am not a member of the Open Brethren assemblies, although I have worked with them and with other evangelicals right throughout life, and I appreciate the very great contribution they have made not only to religion but to education, to social work in the mission field, and to medicine. There can be no doubt that those people have made a considerable contribution here, and they do not speak only from the background of their faith, but from the background of their knowledge in these other fields. This Merivale Christian Fellowship says: “We believe that a nation is only as strong as its communities, and its communities are only as strong as the families in that community. Once the family unit is broken down, then so is our nation. History tells us that great civilisations have crumbled because of perverse moral standards”, and they quote the ancient civilisations of Rome, Greece, and Egypt. They go on: “We who love and are praying for our nation, our Government, and our Parliament directing the nation, want to see God's standards raised, restored, and not lowered.” That is a fair statement of the position of people with these convictions in all denominations. We have heard tonight of the views of church courts, and I accept that the public questions committees of many of these churches support the approach of this Bill. I concede that there is division, and if there is division amongst the churches it is very difficult for members of this House, on that basis, to make up their own minds. But we must make up our own minds, exercise our judgment, in the light not only of our conscience, but of our knowledge of the Christian faith, of society, of medicine, and of the criminal law. I recently addressed a ministers' fraternal in Hamilton - ministers representing all the churches. They said, “What can we do for you people as members of Parliament?” I told them some things they could do, but I said, “One thing you can't do, and that's advise us as a body on how we should vote on Mr Young's Bill, because you people are divided yourselves.” But large numbers of people, and particularly the evangelicals of each denomination, have strong convictions, and th have written to members of Parliament in their scores, and in some cases in their hundreds. They believe, and I believe, that to legislate in this way is to encourage something which will be fundamentally bad for the nation. These people all have compassion, but they believe that when it comes to the making of law there is a need for the people who have that responsibility to legislate for the good of the nation, the community, and the most important single unit in the community, the family. When we legislate here we should be thinking of the spirit that is abroad today, epitomised by Gay Lib and others. In no uncertain terms they have told us what their objectives are. I support the member for Stratford and other members who have said that once we pass this Bill the next step will be to move towards the 18year-olds, the 16-year-olds, and, as the member for Stratford mentioned, suggestions are coming from some church groups overseas that the 14-year-olds should be included. I do not think any members who would support this Bill would support that. Once the Bill is passed, people who are strong advocates of the principle of it will want to see this House go further, and they will not rest until this Parliament or some other Parliament does go further. I believe we have a very solemn task before us, and I hope that this House will support the status quo, without in any way expressing any lack of compassion or understanding for homosexuals. This is a matter for every member to decide, and I have given considerable thought to it for many years. Some people have written to me and said, “We want you, having opposed the Bill initially, to give some thought to it.” They are speaking to someone who has given thought to it for a long time. I appreciate the problem, but I also appreciate the very great responsibility we have as members of Parliament and as legislators. I believe we should put the nation and the family first. Mr O’FLYNN (Kapiti) - When this Bill was introduced nearly a year ago I indicated that, subject to a very important qualification I am about to come to, I would without much enthusiasm support it as a very limited legal reform that was justified in the human and imperfect world we live in. Events that have occurred since make it necessary for me to explain the attitude I am now going to follow, but before I come to the qualification I made at that time, and which is central to what I want to say, I wish to take the opportunity to clarify my attitude to the subject generally. I wish first of all to say that I am among those who regard homosexual conduct as wrong, immoral, and, if you prefer the old-fashioned word - and it is not so old-fashioned - sinful. Further, it is impossible to argue that the act is either normal or natural. I would have thought that that was selfevident, simply because of the linking of man's sexual urge with an obvious biological necessity. In no circumstances is it ever going to be possible to describe that conduct as normal for mankind. But those are not really the questions that the Bill raises. The question raised by the Bill is not whether such conduct is normal or abnormal, or moral or immoral, but whether it should continue to be criminal. Like a lot of other members - I am sure all of us, really - I have given much anxious thought to that question, and I have reached the conclusion, on balance, that it ought not to continue to be criminal. It is not a conclusion that I reached either lightly or easily, and I did not reach it on one of the more usual grounds. I am not persuaded that large numbers of people are being deprived of some right of sexual expression they ought to have. I reached my conclusion on three quite narrow grounds that I can put in a sentence each. First, I know - and my experience in legal practice serves to confirm this - that criminal proceedings are very rarely taken today in the circumstances to which this Bill is primarily directed. Secondly, I know - and again it is confirmed by my own experience of legal practice - that tremendous, dangerous pressures are exerted upon homosexuals under the present law. These pressures, which were referred to by the member for Egmont and other speakers, lead to all kinds of objectionable activity, and to crime, including serious crimes such as blackmail. In the not too distant past they have even led to charges of murder. Thirdly, so far as I have been able to see with some experience of the operation of the law, the passing of this Bill would eliminate those evils without significantly increasing the risk of the spread of this immoral conduct. That brings me back to the qualification I mentioned to begin with. When the Bill was introduced I expressed somewhat unenthusiastic support for it provided that some amendment was introduced to deal with a certain aspect. The passage of time has done nothing except emphasise the importance of that aspect. I made the point on the introduction of the Bill that although the Homosexual Law Reform Society had behaved throughout its campaign with commendable moderation and common sense, there were and there are a number of other groups in the community who, in supporting this reform, adopt an outright aggressive attitude towards it and towards the criminality they say it will relieve. Meanwhile they have made their attitude abundantly clear. They want this sort of conduct to be regarded as normal. One such group wrote to me criticising the Bill because it did not remove what it called the stigma attached to this kind of conduct. I agree with the member for Egmont, who said that his Bill will not render this activity acceptable. I endeavoured to explain to the group that the law does not put any stigma on such conduct, nor does it take it away; that is the prerogative of the public. But undoubtedly some people want to tell us that it is a good or praiseworthy activity. A number of them seem to want to propagate it, and many of them want to reduce the age at which the proposed law will take effect. It was those circumstances that put me in a tremendous difficulty. I feel that, unless something can be done to discourage or prevent this kind of activity, this Bill is dangerous and premature, and that is the point I made when the Bill was introduced. No amendments were produced by the committee, but the member for Porirua has given us notice of his intention to move an amendment. As is obvious from what I have already said, I sympathise with the objective he has in mind, but I feel his amendment would be far too sweeping. The member for Porirua has said on more than one occasion that in practice it will work out all right, but I consider that a dangerous premise on which to write the law, and I feel unable to support the sweeping terms of his proposed amendment. What should I do? After the most anxious thought I have reached the conclusion that, in those circumstances, I can conscientiously follow only one course - that is simply and deliberately to abstain from voting at all. This is not the kind of stance I usually take, as most people know. I shall conclude by saying that I have made this decision not because I cannot make up my mind, and certainly not because I am trying to do the impossible and please both sides of the argument. I adopt that attitude for what I consider to be the good reasons I have endeavoured to explain, which I can summarise in this way: on the one hand I am not prepared to cast a vote against that limited reform for the three reasons I have given, and on the other hand, in the climate created in New Zealand today by those aggressive groups to whom I have referred, I find I am unable to support the Bill in the absence of safeguards. If you like, you can say I think that the time is not right, it is premature, or that something must be done to damp down that kind of activity before I would be prepared to support such a measure as this. The last point I wish to make is that if the reformers are disappointed at the loss of my support, they have the wild fringe of their own supporters and some of their publicists to blame. I propose to abstain from voting on the Bill. Mr K. R. ALLEN (Tauranga) - I rise tonight to oppose the Bill. Indeed, I oppose it strongly. I believe it has been badly written, and that it will not accomplish what the member who has introduced it set out to do. The Bill, as it is written, gives licence not only to homosexuals but also to perverts and the curious excitement hunters. It will encourage adult males to become interested in abnormal sexual practices, and at the same time it will remove the penalty which presently exists for those practices. The Bill applies not only to homosexuals, and this is where we strike the problem. In fact, if one reads the Bill very carefully, it is found that it does not even mention the word homosexuals. In other words, it includes any and all males who wish to indulge in the practices referred to. Is this what we want? I do not think it is. We all know that throughout the world today - and New Zealand is no exception - the people are being assailed by all sorts of minorities who have decided to use every opportunity possible to force their opinions on to others. This is happening now to the Parliament of New Zealand on the basis that homosexuality is a popular issue - and that in itself is subject to further debate. No Parliament has ever made good decisions based on a feeling of popular support that really does not exist. Either the principle of the thing is right or it is wrong, and that is what we have to decide right here in the House. Let us be strong and listen to the conscience of the nation instead of heeding the highpowered and sometimes desperate approaches that minority groups have no doubt made to other members, as they have made them to me. I do not consider this a reform Bill. To me it represents retarded thinking. It suggests that acceptability is respectability. That is what we have been told, but it is not right. I cannot believe there is anything respectable about two males getting together in private to perform indecent acts, which is what the Bill intends to legalise. As I said before, the Bill does not even mention homosexuals, and it would legalise all indecent acts. I cannot be on the side of a Bill that makes such provision, although I believe that the original intention of the promoter of the Bill was quite different. Neither this Bill nor the parent legislation, the Crimes Act, defines such terms as “homosexual offence”, “homosexual acts”, “homosexual molestation”, or “indecency between a man and a boy”. The Bill refers to indecency between consenting males in private, and also to “places of resort” and “premises”. We do not really know what is being referred to when those phrases are used; nor do we know the intention behind their use. The Bill also refers to “place of any kind”. That is too broad for my conscience, and I cannot accept it. It uses the word “prostitute”, a very emotional word these days, and I still do not know, nor does the Crimes Act define, exactly what a prostitute is. The Bill says that these acts can happen in privacy, but what is privacy? The police advise me that they do not know. Is it in a room behind a locked door? Is it in a public toilet behind a locked door? These things are so indefinable, and if we pass this Bill we will put on to our shoulders a burden that will be far worse than the one we carry now. The Bill could not be enforced because it cannot be defined, and this is not acceptable to the majority of New Zealanders, and never will be. I recognise that change must be considered and accepted if we are to progress, but this Bill is a backward step. It is not a recognition of homosexuality as so many other speakers have suggested; it is a licence to commit indecent acts. Change has in many ways led to a better society, a more understanding community, and a happier life for many people, and I believe this is the desire of the mover of this Bill. I respect his desire, but I am afraid that the Bill does not and cannot achieve it. This proposal deals not with homosexuals, but with indecent acts between consenting adults in private. In this unsavoury world people as a whole must retain the basic moral values and selfdiscipline which, whether written into the law or not, are the basis of our ability to live with each other, and with our neighbours, in an orderly and understanding manner. To argue that legality is the same thing as morality, as some people have tried to do tonight, is to join the sick society, and I do not want to be part of it. We must draw the line somewhere, we must stand up and be counted, because there is a big difference between legality and morality. If we accept that difference we build a society, and if we do not we lay the foundation for our own collapse. Any law which proposes to legalise acts between members of our community which are indecent, abnormal, and immoral can be nothing but the forerunner of the cancer that will destroy our community. I will not wear it. History gives us many examples. There is nothing new about this. It has been done before, and it has destroyed before. To weaken public morality must lead to the undermining of the family. Without proper family morality and principles we destroy ourselves. There lies the mental and physical challenge of the future. Do we have moral strength, or do we take the easy way out? It is very easy to say of the principles in this Bill, “Oh, well, nobody will worry. Let's do this.” But we have to be a little bit tougher than that, and we have to decide on harder grounds. Too many people are taking the easy way out tonight. This is not to say that we should not have compassion for our peers. We should always have compassion, but we must never condone anti-social attitudes and actions which undermined the ideals of the past and gamble with the success of the future. I concede that this Bill sets out to treat with compassion those men with homosexual instincts who live in fear of prosecution for actions which to them are normal, but I do not think the Bill achieves that, and that is why I oppose it. It could have been written much better. Medical science has proved that some people are born with these tendencies, and we do not blame them, but this Bill does not deal with compassion. The Bill proves that nature in itself is not perfect, so what else can be? Unfortunately, the people who have been born with those tendencies have been born into a world which rejects such practices. The true and genuine homosexual who is drawn to those of his own sex has my sympathy and understanding and should be compassionately treated by society. This Bill, well-intentioned as it is, not only gives those men freedom from prosecution; it goes much further, in that it opens the floodgates for all males to commit these indecent acts. It legalises indecent acts not only for homosexuals, and I do not think the people of New Zealand want that; it legalises these acts in private - whatever that means - between men who are not necessarily homosexuals, as long as they are over the age of 20, and that’s its weakness. I apologise to my colleague for criticising his Bill so widely, but I have to say what I think, and I know he would not respect me if I did not say it. I do not think this Bill is what we want; I must reject it, and I will subsequently vote against it. It encourages those people on the fringe of a twilight world of crime. I know that homosexual men in our society are a minority, and I believe the Bill sets out to try to help them, but I do not think it does. I admire the courage of the member for Egmont in bringing the Bill into the House. Not many members would have done it, and even though I am against the Bill I congratulate him for having a damn good try. Dr. WALL (Porirua) - I support the introduction of this Bill, and I sympathise with the member for Egmont for the turmoil he has gone through and for the courage with which he has borne the trials of the last 12 months when he has been carrying this Bill on his back. While I support the introduction of this Bill, and support the aims of the member for Egmont, I have indicated right from my first speech on the subject that I felt the Bill should be amended so that, in achieving the purpose of the member for Egmont, we do not produce a great deal of evil which I am sure he himself does not wish. My attitude remains unchanged. I have listened to the evidence brought before the committee, and I have read a great deal on the subject. I am fortunate that in the course of my professional work I have had reason to treat a not inconsiderable number of these people. Since I have been involved in recent weeks in considerable publicity concerning my intentions in this matter, I have been greatly heartened and considerably comforted by messages from some of the people that I have had the privilege to treat in the past, confirming my belief that my approach to their problem was not misguided. For these reasons I had grounds to examine critically the evidence brought before us, and particularly that which was brought in the guise of either scientific or professional expertise. I was most disappointed in it. I was disappointed in the lack of a dispassionate professional or scientific approach to the subject, and, as I said during the reporting back of this Bill from the committee, it was most disturbing to find representatives of a presumably dispassionate professional body moving from their position, as representing the Psychiatric Association, straight into the chair to represent one of the two most partisan bodies to give evidence before the committee, the Homosexual Law Reform Society. In the course of the evidence brought before the committee I was greatly disturbed by the constant assumption by people who should, professionally and educationally, have known better, that all homosexuals were of one type - that they were a homogenous group whose problems, whose tendencies, and whose difficulties were identical. Now, nothing could be further from the truth, and a moment’s reflection, without any knowledge of this problem but with just a knowledge of human beings, must cause members to realise how absurd that proposition is. Yet that was the basis of a great deal of the scientific evidence put before the committee. When questioned and pushed these people did agree with the known fact - and there are a few known facts about this condition - that there is a spectrum of sexual orientation amongst all humans which ranges from the strongly and conventionally heterosexual to the ineradicably homosexual, to such an extent that the person believes that he is in fact in the wrong shaped body. But in between those two extremes - and, as with all biological ranges, the biggest number lies in the middle - there is a group who may be interested sexually in either sex. Now it is this irrefutable fact - one of the few established facts in this condition - which causes me to take the actions and adopt the attitudes which I have towards this legislation. As far as we do know, we can roughly categorise homosexuals into three broad ascending groups. There are the transsexuals - and present opinion seems to place them at about 1 in 17 of all those with strongly homosexual tendencies - who, no matter what one may do, believe themselves to be in the wrong-sexed body, and have done so for as far as they can remember. Apparently nothing whatsoever can be or has been done to alter their situation, and I doubt if they would want it to be done. But they are a small minority even among homosexuals, and it would be a very great mistake to legislate on the assumption that everyone with homosexual tendencies falls into this group. There are others - probably a bigger percentage, but the numbers are not known - who know very well what sex they are and have no wish to change it, but who do appreciate that the only object which is emotionally satisfying to them in the sexual sense is someone of their own sex; and again this appears to be a fixed attitude. As we move towards the centre of the spectrum there are those who will be most of the time like this, and at other times heterosexually inclined. For that group also, any attempts at alteration of their sexual orientation appears to be ill founded and unavailing. Then there is a bigger group still of those who may find sexual satisfaction in either the contemplation of, approach by, or physical contact with members of both sexes. This group appears to be bigger in numbers among the young, and with established habits the numbers tend to fall off. It does not require any great scientific knowledge to understand the likelihood of this. Any understanding of ordinary human behaviour would indicate to every member of this House the obvious probability of this happening, and in fact the unlikelihood of it being anything but so. If we are interested in any one particular activity, it will diminish our interest in alternative activities. The boy at school who is interested in both cricket and tennis, but finds them to be conflicting interests, will decide on one and will find that his interest in the other sport inevitably waning. That is a characteristic of human activity, and there is no reason at all, no matter what people with scientific degrees may tell us, to suppose that human beings behave differently in their intellectual outlook towards sexual activity than they do towards any other human activity. It is this group in particular that concerns me, and I am sure the great majority of our fellow citizens, too, have sympathy and concern for them. They are a bit bewildered by and have some understanding of those who have no option but to express their sexual interest in their own sex, but they feel that there is in this group, particularly among the teenagers and those whose sexual experience does not go back many years, a considerable number whose sexual approaches can be influenced one way or the other in the same way as they can be interested one way or another in every other human activity. If anybody stands up and says this will not happen in sex, then it is up to that person to prove his opinion. Every one of us knows that the concentration of our activities in one field diminishes our interest in others. Why should this not happen in sex, particularly among those who are known to have a bisexual or unestablished sexual approach? Common sense tells us that it is possible to assist these people, and to influence their sexual interests in a way that will not bring them into conflict with society in their fellowship with men and women. Common sense also tells us that where sexual orientation is not firmly established it can be influenced. The committee was given a good deal of evidence along the lines that there is no scientific evidence to suggest that homosexual attitudes are changed at this or that age. To me that argument is nonsense, because it supposes that the reverse is true: that if there is no scientific evidence to suggest it, then it is not true. When one inquires more deeply into this the so-called scientific evidence, one finds it to be some scientific review that has been done, or some scientific paper that has been published, or some exploration into the subject which has found this or that to be the case. Even in this field there are some things of which so little is known that they are beyond scientific inquiry. To say that nothing is known to prove one point of view, and that therefore the opposite is true, could well be said about mother love. Are there any scientific papers on the possibility that mothers might love their children? I could say, on the basis of this approach, that there is no scientific evidence to prove that mothers love their children, but would anyone believe me? The assumption is that, because there is no such scientific evidence, mothers do not love their children, but we all know that they do. We were subject to this sort of argument in the committee. It was said that there was no scientific evidence to suggest that homosexual tendencies developed after the age of 5 or 6, and so it was assumed that it had been proved they did not. But there was no justification whatever for such an assumption. No one had proved anything either way, but any parent of any child, and anyone who has watched teenagers grow up and noted their attitudes, and the different stages through which they go in their sexual interests, would have reason to doubt any statement that sexual approaches are irrevocably fixed and incapable of change beyond the age of 2 or 3 years. For those reasons I have given notice of my intention to move a further amendment aimed at protecting teenagers from proselytism, which can take the form of an assertion that homosexual behaviour is normal and allied to the protest activities which are so popular among those in their late teens; that it is a legitimate way of sending up authority - an anti-establishment move. I personally received a great deal of evidence that, on this basis, some homosexual groups, with the assistance of misguided teachers, are promoting homosexual activities in secondary schools. There is at present no firm, clear statement on the subject that can be understood and observed by teaching authorities and by parents, and if anyone can tell me any other authority whose opinion of what is right or wrong, or what is lawful or not lawful, would merit the respect and support that Parliament receives, then I would like to hear of it. We have a duty to establish a norm, a standard for those who need protection against involving themselves in homosexual behaviour in the belief that it is an innocent activity that is unlikely to be damaging. This is a normal phase all teenagers pass through. I have sympathy for the member for Stratford, who spoke about his own personal experience. A great number of people have been involved in close all-male societies, particularly those who have been to sea, as I have been myself. Such people have drawn my attention to the absolute necessity of protecting the young, and not just the infants. In earlier times boys went to sea at a much younger age and received no protection, and the continuing disastrous consequences to them became very apparent to some of the people living with them. Experiences, both personal and observed, related to me on numerous occasions by people who have been to sea, encouraged me to take the stand I have taken so publicly on this matter. This stand has been criticised because it is too sweeping. It is intended to be sweeping, because it is intended to be a norm. I realise that it has practical difficulties in its implementation and prosecution. Those practical difficulties very strongly limit the possibility of any widespread prosecutions, but they do give strength to people in responsibility, to parents and school teachers. I think it will be found that this Bill, as I think it should be amended, gives strength to very few groups, but inhibits those who would influence children in this way. I support the measure. I recommend that members study the amendment I have proposed, because it will take the pressure off consenting adults, and at the same time it will protect a section of our community not just from physical violation but from the distorted attitude of mind which promotes an outlook that ultimately will lead to voluntary association, with its disastrous consequences. Hon. ALLAN McCREADY (Manawatu) - I rise to oppose this measure. I have listened with interest to speakers for and against. I respect the point of view of those who support the Bill in the same way that I hope they will respect mine. This is the second time in 7 years that this matter has come before the House. The first was in 1968 when Sir Arnold Nordmeyer, as he now is, presented a petition on behalf of the New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society and 75 others. I was a member of the Petitions Committee which, after hearing all the evidence submitted, reported back with no recommendation - a unanimous decision. After reading the submissions made to the present Petitions Committee I cannot see how the situation has changed since 1968. Some of the printed matter posted to members makes me more than ever convinced that this Bill should not be passed. The personnel of this House has changed, but to my way of thinking the facts have not. I noticed that some ministers of religion have expressed their support for the Bill, but from my observations those ministers do not always express the opinions of a great number of their congregations. Having served for some 5 years in the Army, both in New Zealand and overseas, and in some rather raw countries, I have become a pretty broad-minded sort of person, but when I read some of the writing on homosexuality I wonder where our moral standards are being directed. One piece of writing had the name of the author attached, and I realised he was a member of a section I had commanded. He claimed to be a homosexual and pointed out the advantages of being one, and told the youth of this country what they were missing by not being homosexual. On two occasions during my military career I came across homosexuality, and I can tell the House the effects it had on the morale of the units concerned. On the first occasion, an incident was reported to me in the unit I was attached to. The two guilty parties were sent back to base and were dealt with accordingly, but the effect of the actions of those two people on the morale of the troops was very noticeable. This was repugnant to a well disciplined soldier. It had been a unit with a very high reputation before the incident, but it took some time to return to normal, and all the members of the regiment that I was with will confirm this. When they were on leave in the city they were all very reluctant to give the name of their regiment when asked. On the second occasion two officers were found guilty of the offence. I was returning to New Zealand and I was given the duty of bringing those two officers back. My instructions were that when we were at sea I was to invite those two captains into my cabin, and they were to be reduced to the ranks. Some people might ask why it was done that way. The reason was that knowledge of the matter was to be kept from the rest of the troops; the identity of those two officers was not to be made known. Unfortunately, the information did get out, and I was informed later by officers of that unit that there was an undercurrent of disrespect for officers which took a long time to remedy. I know that supporters of this Bill will say that members of the armed forces and the police have been excluded from its provisions, but that removal strengthens my opposition to it. I say that if it is morally wrong for members of the defence forces and the police, it is wrong for the civilian sector too. I hope we never live in a society which has two laws, one for defence personnel and another for the civilian sector. When this Bill was reported back the member for Waitemata quoted the Prime Minister of Canada, Mr Pierre Trudeau, as saying words to this effect: “We have no right to pry into the bedrooms of our nation.” I see no reason why we should take the opinion of the Prime Minister of Canada, or of any other country for that matter, as an example of what our standards of morality should be. He would be no more of an authority than anyone else. If we took this to its logical conclusion, the bedrooms of our nation could become dens of iniquity, where anything could be done. Some will say that times have changed, but the physical construction of the human being has not changed. Perhaps the ways of some people have, but it is not the role of this or any other Parliament to give encouragement to rising generations to think of homosexuality as a normal activity. Some say that freedom of speech and action is an integral part of democracy, but so-called democracy can be allowed to go so far that it destroys itself. We could finish up with a society surviving on the laws of the jungle. As members of this House we have a responsibility to uphold the standards of our people and to legislate to make our society one which sets an example to the world. We have done this in many fields of endeavour. I make a plea to all members of this House to do this in the interests of the moral well-being of future generations. I intended to vote against this Bill, but unfortunately I will be absent from the House so I shall register my opposition in the Committee stage. Hon. M. RATA (Minister of Maori Affairs) - I move, That the question be now put. Mr SPEAKER - No, I am not prepared to accept the motion. Although it is a private member's Bill there is a lot of interest in the matter. Air Commodore GILL (East Coast Bays) - I will not keep the House very long with my comments. My feeling has not changed since I spoke on the introduction of the Bill, but I have in the meantime studied all the information and the reports that have been made available. I have listened with great interest to the speeches made tonight by members of integrity, and I find that I stand almost exactly where the member for Kapiti stands. I do not propose to repeat his arguments, which he gave in some detail, but, unlike him, I do not intend to abstain from voting. I cannot accept that homosexual acts are normal. I would not want to comment on the immorality or otherwise of those acts because - and I say this with some humility, and I am not used to speaking in this House in a humble sort of way - I do not want to judge other people's morals. By my standards homosexual acts are immoral, but I do not want to judge other people. It is a great pity that the legislation in question was ever put on the statute book. I do not think it should have been, but since it is there I think it should be retained as the lesser of two evils. Its removal at this juncture would tend to give the seal of respectability and to suggest that the establishment now thinks that homosexual behaviour is normal and quite acceptable in society. I do not intend to do anything that could be interpreted in any way as meaning that. Some remarks have been passed tonight about the situation in the armed forces. I spent 33 years in the armed forces and I never saw any homosexuality. I do not think a homosexual could exist in the armed forces. That would be very exceptional. Perhaps it could happen in wartime when people are drafted, but in a peacetime situation, when people are free to join or not to join the armed forces, homosexuals do not join. They could not exist in the barrack blocks. If we pass this Bill we will be making homosexual acts legal, and then there will be some homosexuality in the armed forces. I do not know how other men could live with it. It would be crippling for the armed forces to allow this law to be passed. I do not think I want to say anything more. My position has always been clear. That does not mean I have not continued to examine the arguments put forward, but I just cannot support this Bill. Dr ROGERS (Hamilton East) - I cannot altogether agree that homosexuality is just a medical problem susceptible to a medical cure. Like all forms of self-indulgence it is a moral problem, but I agree there is little evidence that it is any worse than many of the more acceptable forms of self-indulgence. Society is apt to expect, and even enforce, conformity in many unexpected directions - even in hair length - but I must confess to finding this form of indulgence peculiarly unattractive. Yet I cannot condone the actions of people who are led by their feelings to conduct campaigns against those who seek to improve matters by removing the offence from the law. Laws do not make people moral. At the very best they can only make up for lack of morality. Like other members, I have received many letters pressing me to support or oppose this Bill, and I wish to comment on only one of them, which was referred to by the member for Waikato. I believe it was a copy of a submission made by the Open Brethren to the select committee, and I comment on it largely because it was one of the few to which I received an acknowledgment of my reply. I hesitate to waste the time of the House with too much of this, except to quote from the letter sent me. “The Bible expressly forbids homosexual acts in any circumstances, as the following quotations illustrate: Leviticus 18, 22: ‘You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.’ Leviticus 20, 13: “If a man lie with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination, and they shall be put to death. Their blood is upon them.’” I shall omit the next one, but the letter goes on to Corinthians, and I think this is important: “Do not be deceived: neither the immoral, nor the idolators, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the Kingdom of God.” I think there is a difference here, because it immediately shows that this sin or crime, or whatever you like to call it, is not really in the unique category which many would like to see it put in, and which the existing law puts it in. The letter goes on to say: “We believe these standards should be absolute for Christians in a Christian country.” I raise this perhaps largely because this attitude has not been mentioned, although the whole subject has been covered pretty widely. I replied by asking what an absolute Christian standard is, and suggesting that surely it is to love what is good, and your neighbour as yourself. I also pointed out that we are warned not to judge others lest we be judged too. Why single out this particular sin as more especially deserving of retribution than any other? In my letter I said that St Paul, in the passage I have just quoted, does not differentiate between idolators, adulterers, and so on. I said we no longer cut off the hands of thieves, burn heretics, or stone adultresses, and I raised the interesting issue of why adultresses are treated differently from adulterers, and were even in those days. Is it, I asked, because our humanity has become more nearly perfect? Perhaps it has improved a little bit. Perhaps it is because our behaviour is a little more godly than the reverse that there is the slight modification of the New Testament law on the Old Testament law. Past and present changes in law, I suggested, did not make any of these forms of behaviour less immoral than they ever were, but true morality lies in wanting and choosing to be good - not in being forced to be good. Example and loving care are our strongest weapons against crime - not punishment, which tends to be destructive of humanity, and not only destructive of humanity, but provocative of sympathy. Public opinion is probably the harshest of all penalties against these crimes. It is not the crime itself which has been softening public opinion to it so much as the fact that the law has seemed to be unfair, and perhaps even unjust, in its implementation. I shall not mention all the points made in the acknowledgment except to state this rather hard line: “We do not believe that the code handed down on Mount Sinai was evolved by Moses himself, but it represents God's standard and does not permit of any deviation.” I think that really just misses the point that there has been some Christian acknowledgment that homosexuality should not be treated exactly as it was on Old Testament standards. The writer also implied that the Bill now before us condones homosexual acts and makes them seem to be normal. I think that is a common misapprehension about this measure. In fact, in many ways it proposes more vigorous action against homosexual assault or the involvement of minors than does the existing law. It will not provide perfect law. I do not believe any human law can be perfect, and I 13–Vol. 399 readily admit that I am not able to suggest any very effective improvements that can be made, but I will not vote against it on that count because it is such an obvious improvement on the law it will replace. In many ways I should have liked to feel I could support the amendment that the member for Porirua proposes to move. Of all crimes I believe none is worse than that which subverts the young, the weak, or the ignorant. However, I doubt whether the amendment would really have the desired effect. Certainly it runs strongly counter to the concept of proper and equal access to all relevant information, without which no individual can arrive at a proper conclusion on a matter such as this, and without which there can be no true personal morality. I sympathise with the member for Porirua in his efforts, but I believe the results he desires can be secured by means other than writing that provision into the law. I support the Bill and I congratulate the member for Egmont on his courage in bringing it forward. Hon. L. W. GANDAR (Ruahine) - I find it very difficult to comprehend homosexuality. It is something that is outside my personal understanding. Nevertheless, I support this Bill for several reasons: first, because I believe it is time we examined this legislation on humanitarian grounds. As has been said so often tonight, there is a need to approach this problem with compassion. Secondly, I support the Bill because it eliminates what has hitherto been a discriminatory difference between the homosexual acts of men and women. If the argument is valid in law that women should not be outside the law in the practice of homosexuality, then equally I think the argument should apply to men. Thirdly, it is widely known and acknowledged that the law has been enforced, at least in the last 10 or 15 years, haphazardly and erratically. Fourthly, a transient homosexual is far less likely to seek help from the law; the law stands as a barrier to his seeking that help. Assistance cannot be given or sought because of the fear of the law - and I make a very strong distinction between assistance and treatment. Debate interrupted. The House adjourned at 10. 30 p. m.

IRN: 1251
PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/hansard_crimes_amendment_bill_first_reading_24_july_1974.html
TITLE: Crimes Amendment Bill - first reading (24 July 1974)
USAGE: Important note: the text may contain errors, so always refer back to the official parliamentary documents to confirm content.
DATE: 24 July 1974
YEAR: 1974
LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington
TYPE: hansard
TEXT: 24 July 1974, New Zealand Parliament Mr V. S. YOUNG (Egmont) - I move, That leave be given to introduce the Crimes Amendment Bill. This Bill provides for making homosexual acts committed in private between consenting males, 21 years or over, no longer a criminal offence; it gives greater protection to male children under 16 years from being sexually molested by males of 21 or over; it protects mentally ill persons from homosexual acts; and it makes homosexual and heterosexual acts of prostitution, procuring, importuning, and living off the earnings of prostitution equally unlawful - an area of law where the present statute is inadequate. As with the law relating to capital punishment, and to any other law dealing with moral issues, the proposal to remove the threat of conviction from the acts of adult male homosexuals, consenting and in private, there will be sincerely and deeply held views both for and against. I am convinced, however, that the law should be changed. If I fail to act on that conviction because of consequences to my political career, then, as I see it, I fail in my duty. I well understand the views of those who are opposed to change. These were the views I myself held over many years. I have now changed those views after considered and serious study. However, in presenting this Bill to Parliament I give notice that I will seek to have the Bill referred to the Statutes Revision Committee for the hearing of evidence from people of differing opinions on the proposed changes in the law or suggested amendments to the provisions in this Bill. Furthermore, because of the conflict of opinion in the community on this subject, I consider these hearings should be open to the press. There will be those who will claim that this measure will lower moral standards. That claim is untrue. Values are established by society, not by the law. I consider it Parliament's duty, in the light of new knowledge, at least to examine the law. If our Parliament, having examined the law, thinks fit to alter it, then New Zealand will bring its legislation into line with that in other Western countries. In the United Kingdom, in Canada, and in South Australia the law has been changed. In the Federal Parliament of Australia a similar resolution was moved by John Gorton, former Prime Minister, seconded by the Minister for the Environment, and supported by the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Country Party. These men were well aware of the controversial nature of the subject, but they were also aware of their responsibilities. That other countries have changed the law is, of course, not in itself sufficient reason for New Zealand's doing the same, but it does challenge us to examine the reasoning behind their moves and consider whether that reasoning does not apply equally to us. A homosexual is not a homosexual of his own choice; he is either born one or is made one, probably during the early months of his life. Through no fault or virtue of his own he is headed for homosexuality or heterosexuality. In my view the removal of the thread of criminal conviction from the homosexual, under the circumstances stated previously, will not make, and is not intended to make, his actions more socially acceptable, though it does imply recognition of his condition. There is no law on the statute book of New Zealand which prohibits adultery or promiscuity, but the absence of such a law does not make these practices socially acceptable. There must always remain a distinction between what is moral and what is legal; if this were not so, homosexual law reform would not be supported by the Methodist Church, the Presbyterian Church, some dioceses of the Anglican Church, the Associated Churches of Christ, and the National Council of Churches. They, together with a growing body of informed opinion - doctors, psychiatrists, social workers, and lawyers - consider that the best way to help the homosexual to come to terms with himself is through a change in the law. This also will allow society to come to terms with a problem in society. It is important for us to do this. The paedophiliac, or child molester, is in a different category. Society must protect the young and innocent from such persons. To that end I propose an increase in the penalties available to courts in punishment of such offences. There will be no increase in the number of homosexuals if this Bill becomes law. The law does not make or unmake homosexuals. If it did, past Parliaments would stand condemned for not having legislated against lesbianism, or female homosexuality, against which the law has made no conviction. Clause 2 provides for an increase in the maximum penalty where there is indecency between a man and a boy. Although I accept that paederasty is quite separate from homosexuality, I consider the actions of the paedophiliac as reprehensible as that of rape. I therefore propose to equate the maximum penalty for this crime with the penalty for rape - that is a prison sentence not exceeding 14 years. Clause 3 removes criminal conviction for homosexual acts in private between consenting male adults of 21 years and over. However, this provision does not apply to any homosexual act to which one of the parties is a patient as described by the Mental Health Act 1969, or where consent is obtained involuntarily, or to any indecent assault. Any age is arbitrary; 21 has been chosen since Parliament did not see fit to alter this age in sections 141 and 142 of the Crimes Act when considering the Age of Majority Act 1969. This age also coincides with that in similar overseas statutes. In all other respects the laws against indecent acts between males are unaltered. Clauses 4 to 7 strengthen the existing laws relating to the keeping of places of resort for prostitution and procuring. The intention of these clauses is to make homosexual and heterosexual acts of prostitution, procuring, importuning, and living off the earnings of prostitution equally unlawful. Clause 8 provides that certain prosecutions pending at the passing of this Act shall be withdrawn. The reasons for this clause are that homosexual acts, by their nature and by the nature of police investigation, frequently come to light a considerable time after they were committed, and it is only humanitarian that no prosecution should be brought for a stale offence. The British Parliament thought this was a proper measure to take when it enacted its law reform in 1967. As a father of five sons I have asked myself time and again, when considering the amendments proposed in this Bill: do they meet my requirements for the protection of society, particularly the young, yet at the same time deal with the problems of the homosexual in a way that can help him to come to terms with his condition and allow society to understand his problems more fully without first branding him a criminal? [Time extended.] In seeking leave to introduce this Bill into Parliament I am seeking to introduce a change in the law relating to these offences. I do not pretend that the Bill is perfect, but I suggest to the House that it is timely, particularly considering legislative moves in overseas countries. It is timely for us to consider this matter, and if this Bill receives its first reading then I shall ask that it be referred to the Statutes Revision Committee to allow the public to make submissions on it and I hope the committee will report the Bill back to this Chamber with a recommendation. Hon. Dr A. M. FINLAY (Minister of Justice) - I want to make it quite clear at the outset that I give this Bill an unequivocal welcome, but I do so in terms that I hope will be a little less dramatic than some of the words used by the honourable member - not in this House, because his speech here was commendably moderate, but in some of the remarks that accompanied the announcement of his intent to introduce the Bill. There was in those remarks an element of drama that overemphasised the importance of what was proposed. My own view is that this reform is long overdue and ought to be attended to quickly, without fuss and fanfare. If it comes to a vote I will certainly vote for this Bill in the House today, but I hope that it will not come to a vote; I hope the Bill will be referred to a committee without any such formality, and that when it comes back to the House time will be found for it to proceed through the remaining stages that are necessary for it to become a formal part of the law of this country, whether in the form in which it goes to the committee or in an amended form. In saying that I welcome the Bill unequivocally, I want it to be noted that I do not commit myself explicitly to the exact language that is in the honourable member's Bill. I have seen a draft Bill prepared by the Homosexual Law Reform Society, and at first consideration I think it is a better instrument. And, of course, other laws have recently been passed in a number of other countries, as the honourable member has reminded us; so it may very well be that the text and even the substance of this measure call for revision. But the general intent of the Bill is plain. It gives substantial effect to the findings of the Wolfenden committee of 1957. I believe the proper course is for it to go to a committee and to be considered there. For that reason I do not propose to concern myself with the details of the measure at this stage. This is of course a subject that merits the closest possible consideration, if only because of the manner - the almost furtive way - in which it came into our law in the first instance. We, of course, derive our law in this respect from that of the United Kingdom, where it was formulated in 1885 and became part of the law by what has become known as the Labouchere amendment. Henry Labouchere, a member of Parliament in 1885, was something of an eccentric and had gained a reputation for presenting unexpected and often inappropriate amendments to legislation. In that year there was introduced into the House of Lords the English Criminal Law Amendment Bill, which curiously enough, did not apply to homosexual women; and there is a legend, possibly apocryphal, attributing some responsibility for that omission to Queen Victoria. When it was introduced the Bill was entitled as one to make “further provision for the protection of women and girls, the suppression of brothels, and other purposes”. That was the long title, and accurately described the purpose of the legislation, which was passed through all its stages in the House of Lords. It was given an unopposed second reading in the Commons and committed to a Committee of the Whole House. During that stage, at 2. 30 in the morning, Henry Labouchere proposed a clause which would create a new offence of indecency between adult males in private. A member inquired whether it was not out of order to move an amendment which dealt with a totally different class of offence from those contemplated by the Bill to which the House had given a second reading, and, the Speaker having ruled that anything could be introduced by leave of the House - I am not sure whether you would agree with that, Mr Speaker - the amendment was adopted without any opposition. So there is the genesis of the legislation which the honourable member's Bill proposes to amend. At this stage that may have only historical interest, because the topic has been debated lengthily in many parts of the world, including the study by the Wolfenden committee. That committee's report in 1957 was reflected in legislation in Britain in 1967, and it has been followed in the countries mentioned by the member for Egmont. In supporting the general principles of the Bill I am not, as some will say, encouraging homosexuality. In fact, I do not know how such an exercise could be done by simply recognising a phenomenon that exists, a phenomenon that is not in my belief open to “cure” - and I use that word in inverted commas. It is, of course, what many people describe as an unnatural offence, but I wish I knew just what was natural. We are all prone to the seven deadly sins and more, and all of us have in our own makeup some of the matters that go to make for goodness and badness. For instance, is bad temper natural or, come to think of it, is good temper natural? Is ambition natural? Is greed natural? All these qualities are possessed to a greater or lesser degree by all of us, and the quantities of each to be found in each of us go to make up our character. It is true that in all these cases some sort of control can be exercised, and the particular characteristic - greed, lust, or whatever it may be - can be concealed; but generally that results in a sublimation and the manifestation of the aberration in some other form. I think that is true of homosexuality. Some people say it may be controlled. I do not know whether it can or cannot, but I believe that if it is deliberately or expressly controlled it is likely to produce some other manifestation in the individual concerned; and a common one, of course, is alcoholism. I do not intend to become involved in the mechanics of the operation we are concerned with, and I must say that in its ultimate it has always seemed to me that it must be a singularly uncomfortable, if not painful experience. It certainly has no attraction for me, but not knowing anything of it, I cannot speak of it. It is a minority phenomenon, but a sufficient number of people are afflicted by this weakness, deviation, aberration - call it what you will - to constitute a significant number of people whose lives are adversely affected and whose associations, often with wives - because it is a common circumstance that people who are homosexually inclined have married and indeed have fathered children - and their whole families, are affected by the social bond that keeps them from mingling freely and openly with members of their own kind, or acknowledging what society has condemned, and I am sure will continue to condemn, although it is a futile exercise to condemn something for which a person is not really responsible. I welcome the legislation and I hope that others in this House will view it similarly to the way I do. But this is a matter on which everybody is free to express his own views, and I am sure some will express deep-seated personal convictions. Mr SPEAKER - I am in some difficulty because I understand the Whips have made no arrangements for speakers on this Bill. I do not know, therefore, whether any agreement has been made as to who is to be called. I do not even know which members will speak for or against the Bill. If there are to be several speakers competing for the call, it would be helpful if I were in a position to call someone now who wishes to speak against the motion. Hon. R. D. MULDOON (Leader of the Opposition) - Several Opposition members wish to speak, some for the Bill, some against it, and some just to speak. Since there are no arrangements it would be extremely difficult for you to try to alternate between those who are for and those who are against, so I suggest we just follow the traditional practice with calls. Hon. W. W. Freer - I agree with the Leader of the Opposition. I think that is the only way to conduct an orderly debate. Hon. DAVID THOMSON (Stratford) - I support the member for Egmont and the Minister of Justice in the hope that this Bill will be introduced without division and referred to the Statutes Revision Committee for study and report back to the House. There must surely be a boundary somewhere to the Crimes Act, because if every aspect of deviant human behaviour were included among those aspects which past Parliaments have decided require legal censure and should be in the Crimes Act, we would find our jails overcrowded with all those people we now have learned to love as eccentrics. This Bill, in its first aim, deals with one aspect of deviant human behaviour - deviant in that a minority is afflicted or concerned, whichever term one wishes to use. I stated publicly a couple of months ago that I am opposed to the proposition that homosexual acts between consenting adult males should be legalised; and I did not take that public stand lightly, nor without long study and thought. Controversy on this subject has been growing over a number of years, and many many eminent and respected citizens and responsible bodies have questioned the law. That being so, I agree that it is time for Parliament itself to face these questions that are posed to us, as the makers and amenders of the law, and for us to call for evidence on this Bill and make our decision on it, whatever our attitude individually to the merits of the Bill itself. The debate on the introduction is not the time to put forward long argument for or against the Bill's proposals. I content myself by observing that, while I do oppose the first aim, the legalising of homosexual acts between adult consenting males - and I make the same reservation as the Minister of Justice as to drafting - I must accept those other aims which seek to protect minors and the mentally ill. I support also the extension of the term “prostitution” to include male prostitution - a matter on which the law has clearly been deficient for some time. Finally, I commend my colleague for his sense of duty even in the face of considerable criticism, much of it raised without a clear understanding of the law or the proposals for amendment. As his neighbouring Taranaki representative in Parliament, I must say that he deserves - and I hope he will get - the respect of all thinking people in our province. I have no doubt that the House will give him credit. Dr WALL (Porirua) - Whilst I strongly support the general aim of the Bill, certain aspects of it concern me, as I am sure they concern the community at large. I believe the House should be satisfied about these points before allowing the Bill to be introduced, and therefore I ask the member for Egmont to advise whether he will be prepared to entertain an amendment to the Bill along the lines I intend to put forward. It is fundamental to our approach to this measure that the member in charge of the Bill should be willing to accept suggested amendments; otherwise the whole process will be made very much more difficult. I believe that many people in the community are concerned about the points at issue. I am not unduly concerned about the activities of the true consenting adult, and I believe very few of us have anything other than pity for those people; we do not wish to see them being persecuted by the law in any way for what are essentially private acts. However, while many people think that way, it is not an indication of any particular moral judgment concerning such acts. I and a great number of other people are concerned about the phenomenon we have seen growing and being promoted, not by the responsible body formed to introduce reform in this matter, but by the associated way-out groups whose attitude is frankly proselytising or recruiting in this field - not in support of reform of the law but of acknowledgment that these are socially acceptable acts. Such groups not only want the activities concerned to be regarded as legal, but they want the whole cult of behaviour associated with the activities, as well as their promotion, to be accepted socially. I am therefore in very marked disagreement with the attitude expressed by the Minister of Justice, perhaps partially because of my own clinical practice. Because of the tendency of some groups to promote widespread acceptance of homosexuality by means of organisations devoted to the promotion of this type of activity and of social activities not necessarily directly involved in sexual acts, I ask the member for Egmont to advise whether he himself would be prepared to accept a thorough examination of this measure with a view to having it amended to restrict the activities of all those organisations whose membership is chosen because of a particular sexual outlook. Any organisation which makes, either overtly or covertly, that type of activity the criterion for its membership should be severely restricted by legislative means. I am sure that if the member responsible for the Bill gives some thought to the reasons behind my suggestion he will find himself in agreement with it. I am concerned about the older teenager who sees the kind of situation that I myself have seen. On a university notice board I have seen a big placard, inviting “everyone who is a homosexual, a transvestite, a lesbian”, or anyone else with a particular sexual aberration, to attend a social function that evening. There are many who are not firmly fixed in their sexual outlook but who, because of the social circumstances in which they live, are leading relatively tranquil lives and continuing to carry out their functions to the satisfaction of themselves and their families in the normal heterosexual circumstances. However, it has been found overseas that when similar legislation has been introduced containing no provision for restricting the activities of groups or associations, various bodies have been set up drawing the attention of people to the fact that they have an alternative sexual way of life open to them. After seeing constant advertisements issued by the groups, and on becoming aware of the semi-social acceptance of such activities by their mere public existence, many people are faced with difficulties they would not otherwise have. This applies particularly to those in their late teens and early twenties; and, strange as it, may seem, it also applies to some people in their thirties who have been coping quite well with ordinary married life but who, because of particular circumstances that have put them under stress, have discovered basic neurotic tendencies in this regard starting to come to the fore. The ability of such people to meve into a field that will have disastrous consequences for them and their families is greatly limited in our society. It has become less limited in recent years with the advent and public acknowledgment of the existence of bodies devoted to a different type of sexual approach, and as a result the problems of the people to whom I have referred have been increasing to my own certain knowledge. I believe this is the real danger to our community. It is a danger recognised by many people, and if the member for Egmont will agree to accept an amendment to restrict or control the type of public activities carried out by organised bodies devoted to this type of approach, I myself, and probably many others, will support the introduction of his Bill. I feel sure other members of the House also have the same reservations. In the absence of any safeguard of the type I have suggested, I am sure everyone in the community will be viewing with apprehension the possibility that we will see in New Zealand the type of organisation that has grown up overseas as a result of the introduction of this type of legislation. Hon. L. W. GANDAR (Ruahine) - I know that many people are disturbed by the suggestion that the law on homosexuality should be reviewed, let alone changed. For many years I have been convinced that there are areas of inconsistency in those sections of the Crimes Act to which the member for Egmont seeks amendment in the Bill he now wishes to introduce. For that reason I support the introduction of the measure. Indeed, I go further and say that I support revision of the law, if not exactly along the lines of the Bill we are discussing, then in general conformity with it. I am not a homosexual, and as far as I aware I have not even met one. Nevertheless, this form of sexual aberration exists, and I have nothing but compassion for people in that way afflicted. I have a very high regard for the member for Egmont and for his fortitude in introducing the measure. Some people may miusnderstand his motives, but I know him to be an honourable man of impeccable integrity. I believe the Bill should be introduced and referred to the Statutes Revision Committee so that the law on homosexuality can be rewritten in the light of modern understanding of the conditions that lead to it. The Bill, far from condoning or lessening the crime of paedophilia, increases the penalties which can be imposed by the court. I support the extension which the member for Porirua suggests should have been incorporated in the Bill. I have several reasons for my views. The first is on humanitarian grounds. Secondly, the present law is discriminatory. If the argument that the law should not be altered, is valid, is it not equally valid that lesbianism should be brought within the law? Thirdly, it is widely known and acknowledged that the law is, and can only be, haphazardly and erratically enforced. Fourthly, for the transient homosexual, who is far more likely to seek help, assistance cannot be sought or given because of fear of the law. There is a vital distinction between assistance and treatment. An excellent publication, of which many members will have a copy, entitled Crime in New Zealand, puts the controversy in its simplest form: “It is accepted that there is a sphere of conduct in which the behaviour of the individuals must be controlled by the sanctions of the law, in their own interests and in the interests of society. It is also accepted that there is a sphere which is proper to leave to the dictates of the individual and his conscience as guided by the standards of the society in which he lives.” The extent and the boundaries of these two spheres are controversial and in my view can only be established in the quiet and objective approach that comes from a parliamentary committee, as suggested by the member for Egmont. There are two courses open. We can decline to make any change in the law, in which case we continue to dismiss the cry for compassion from a surprisingly large number of our society who need assistance; we apparently agree with the necessarily capriciously enforced law, and with an ambivalent attitude towards homosexuality and lesbianism; and finally, to use the words of Sir Hugh Linstead, a member of the House of Commons - and again I am quoting from Crime in New Zealand - “We are maintaining a law which, judged by the ordinary four standards of good law - prevention, reformation, retribution, and deterrence - fails.” The alternative course is to recognise that this is a moral and not a legal question, and to deal with it by the social and moral sanctions of public opinion. These are very cogent reasons why the Bill should be permitted to go to the Statutes Revision Committee for consideration and report to the House in due course. Hon. Mrs T. W. M. TIRIKATENE SULLIVAN (Minister of Tourism) - The Bill proposes to change the present law relating to private homosexual acts between consenting male adults. It proposes that any such act should be no longer classified as a criminal offence. The proposed change will lessen, and perhaps even negate, the suffering of approximately 50,000 New Zealanders, according to the 1958 estimates of the Department of Justice. One of the ways this pressure has been indicated has been the high number of suicides among homosexuals. I speak as one who, during my time as a social worker counselling homosexuals, became aware of considerable suffering by otherwise law-abiding citizens. To compound this unnecessary suffering, the treatment to change the condition can have only limited success. All research to date confirms this limitation on the efficacy of treatment. The present law, as has been pointed out by the Minister of Justice, is a copy of the British law passed by the House of Commons in 1885. I suggest the reason the law still exists on our statute book in its present form is a combination of the distaste with which many people view the subject and the natural inertia of existing legislation. If the law on the statute book was that proposed in this Bill there would probably not be any considerable move by society to have it changed. Legislative inertia is certainly not a valid reason for leaving an outdated and inappropriate piece of legislation on the statute book. I repeat that official Department of Justice figures suggest that approximately 50,000 New Zealand men are negatively affected by the law in its present form. My predominant concern about this question has been the unnecessary human suffering which could be negated if the law were made consistent. I believe with all sincerity that one must carefully scrutinise the validity or otherwise of the present law. In its present form it makes private homosexual acts between consenting male adults a criminal offence. If, as the law at present stands, it is a crime for private homosexuals acts to occur between consenting male adults, who is the victim? If there is a crime, there must be a victim. If one of the parties is a minor, society validly considers that he is the victim; I agree with that. If the act is not private and other parties can be offended, then they could be considered to be the victims; I have no quarrel with that. If one of the parties does not consent, then he is the victim; I have no quarrel with that either. However, we are talking of private homosexual acts between consenting adult males, and there I see no crime and no victim. We are discussing legislation which declares that a specific act of behaviour is a criminal act. We are not talking about whether we approve or disapprove, no matter how strongly, of this specific act. We are not considering at this stage whether this specific act should be declared to be acceptable, natural, or unnatural. To support a change in the current law does not in any way whatsoever imply that we approve of homosexual behaviour, support it, like it, or condone it. But my experience in social work has been that we ignore a reality of life if we do not acknowledge that the condition exists. It is not the purpose of criminal legislation to record what society disapproves of or approves of. Criminal legislation aims to protect members of society from the criminal acts perpetrated by some of its members upon others. Where there is mutual consent between adults in respect of private homosexual acts, however, the criminal law should not make any comment. There is also a clear need to draw a distinction between adult homosexuality and child molestation. Informed medical opinion and research has suggested that the vast majority of homosexuals are not interested in children. In one American investigation it was found that of a considerable number of homosexual offenders only 1 percent admitted a preference for children. Adult homosexuality and child molestation, I repeat, arise from distinctly different behaviour patterns, and as an issue that often confuses the argument it is important that that fact should be pointed to. The inconsistency in the law as it affects male and female homosexuals has been referred to, and I merely mention it here as being illogical. I conclude by saying that approval of this proposed legislation is not to condone, not to approve, not to support, and not to endorse the condition; rather it is to recognise that it is not a criminal act when it is between male adults in private who mutually consent. Air Commodore GILL (East Coast Bays) - I am one of those who would not wish to see the law on homosexuality changed at this time. However, I must say that I am very pleased that the Bill is being introduced. I commend the member for Egmont for seeking to introduce it, because this Parliament is a place where minorities and small groups of people should be able to have their problems discussed if they think the law is at fault. There is no doubt that we have been under considerable notice from these groups for some years past; they have let us know that they believe the law to be at fault. I do not think it is a good law; in fact, I think it is a great pity it was ever put on the statute book. It is one of those laws that I could quite comfortably hold in contempt because it legislates in an area where the law really has no business to meddle. We are not a court of morals. We do not attempt in this House to judge people's morals, but that is more or less what this law does. Since I have this contempt for that law, I suppose I should say why I would not like to see it changed at this time. I feel that if we changed the law at present we would give an air of respectability to something which I think is not respectable. Changing the law would imply that we confirm what some people have been saying - that this is a normal situation. I do not believe it is a normal situation. I do not go along with the thought that homosexual behaviour is not a matter of choice - that a homosexual is either born or made one. I do not think it is as black and white as that, and I feel that sometimes a bit of strength of character or personal discipline at the right time might have resulted in a different end product. I do not want us to do anything at all at this stage that will give an air of respectability or a blessing to homosexuality. The police do administer well a law for which I have contempt, a law by which Parliament has attempted to meddle in an area where it should not be. No Parliament in New Zealand would consciously set out to do this, and I am not accusing parliamentarians of consciously setting out to meddle. We are in this situation by accident; we have the law, and we must acknowledge that we have got it. I suspect that most members have applied themselves to this problem over the years and have studied it very fully. I am sure they have been distressed by it, and no doubt whatever decision they have arrived at in their own minds has caused them some concern. I am pleased that this House recognises the need to work for change not only in the economic field but in the social field as well. I wish I could feel that it was right to support the Bill at this stage, but I do not. I do, however, support very strongly the action of my colleague, the member for Egmont, in introducing the measure, and I hope the House will do what the Minister of justice has recommended - that is, to give this Bill a first reading without any division and to send it to the Statutes Revision Committee for the hearing of evidence. But I hope that the Minister of Justice, who is responsible for that committee, or perhaps you, Mr Speaker, will ensure that only those people who wish to give evidence in a responsible way will be permitted to give verbal evidence. The committee should receive written evidence from anybody, but when it comes to the stage of hearing oral submissions I hope the Minister, if it is in his power, or the Speaker, will be quite rigorous about who will be heard, and that he will satisfy himself that they are serious people of good intent who have proper submissions to make. Dr BASSETT (Waitemata) - I support the introduction of this Bill, and I support all members who have spoken except perhaps the member for East Coast Bays and the member for Stratford. It is quite clear that this Bill deserves careful study and that the law needs to be changed. I should also like to say how much I respect the member for Egmont for introducing the Bill. It is not easy to do what he has done this afternoon. Unfortunately, it is absolutely certain that he will receive hate mail for having done it; he will receive criticism as well as praise. It is not easy to stand up in those circumstances, and I admire him for his courage. This House must always hold in esteem any member who has the courage to do what he believes to be right, irrespective of the consequences. This Bill tackles the subject very well. It is balanced, and the four basic aims hang together particularly well. The change is rather overdue, as the member who has introduced the Bill pointed out. The United Kingdom, Canada, and the Capital Territory of Australia have already made these changes, and while, as the member for Egmont pointed out, that is no reason in itself for changing the law, it is an important reason for discussing the question carefully. It is worth reflecting on why it has taken so long to bring about this change. New Zealanders, as one famous historian has said, are particularly conservative when it comes to matters affecting personal relations. We were very quick to accept the Victorian legislation in the first place, and we have been slow to acknowledge, as the Prime Minister of Canada said at one time, that the State has no place in the bedrooms of the nation. We have been slow to remove what has been an unfair piece of legislation that has afflicted a section of our society. I have only one question relating to this Bill: What is the situation relating to people under the age of 21? Twenty is now the age of majority, although, as the member for Egmont pointed out, in 1969 the Crimes Act changed in this regard. I think that this may well be the age where legal penalties that might continue to exist in law could be most harmful. I would suggest, therefore, that lowering the age to 20 would not be unreasonable, in line with the fact that it is accepted as the age of majority. I hope the committee will look carefully at the arguments for and against this point. I end on the note of commending the member for Egmont for what he has done this afternoon. Hon. R. D. MULDOON (Leader of the Opposition) - I commence where the member for Waitemata ended his speech and pay a tribute to the courage of the member for Egmont in introducing this highly controversial measure. I know, because I have expressed my support for a change in this law, that such an expression immediately brings personal attacks from people who hold a different point of view. I know that the member for Egmont, since he has announced his intention of introducing this measure, has had those attacks from people - and I say this charitably - who really do not understand what this matter is all about. The honourable member is not bringing this Bill forward because he is careless of the rights of young boys or of anyone; he is bringing it before the House because he believes that, in compassion if for no other reason, the law should be changed so that the people concerned will not be placed under the constant threat of a law which, as some members have said this afternoon, really should find no place on our statute book - a threat not so much of prosecution, because prosecutions have been rare, but of blackmail and of physical violence amounting in some cases in this country to murder. That is what this Bill is all about. By strengthening the penalties for those who commit homosexual acts that should properly be crimes, the member for Egmont is underlining that very clear difference. I commend his courage, and I personally support the Bill. I will be interested to see, when the Bill comes back from the Statutes Revision Committee, what amendments, if any, have been proposed, and naturally I reserve my judgment on those. Let me say, and underline, that this is not a National Party Bill; there has been some slight misunderstanding about that. Members on this side of the House will speak and vote according to their conscience. I say clearly, and not for the first time, that as long as I am leader of this party no member will be influenced in the slightest if he wishes to introduce a private member's Bill on a matter of conscience. I regret that we can no longer say that about our political opponents. I go along part of the way with the member for Porirua. I am one of those who find the extravagant expressions of some of those who favour this measure, but also favour this kind of activity, deplorable and of no help whatsoever in making some change in the legislation - indeed, the reverse, making it much more difficult for a man such as the member for Egmont to tell the people what in fact he is doing because it is being confused with some kind of parade, and to most people an offensive parade, of things that simply divert attention from what is proposed. One of the best ways of illustrating the importance and deep study given to this proposal would simply be to read out the names of some eminent New Zealanders who support the Homosexual Law Reform Society - men such as the Rev. Ford, one of the leading ministers in the Methodist Church; the Anglican Bishop of Auckland; and Dr J. L. Robson, one of our great Secretaries of Justice. I notice, too, the name of Dr Diana Mason, president of a society which is opposed to reform in an area which many people seem to confuse with homosexual law reform when in fact it is entirely different. Many people - and I am one of them - favour reform in this area and oppose abortion law reform. This is not a group of odd people trying to get privileges or evade responsibility for odd actions. This is a very important piece of social legislation. In essence, it redefines these acts as matters of moral judgment rather than as crimes. I believe that many thousands of New Zealanders who today do not understand what is being proposed would come down heavily on the side of what is in this Bill if they were able to take the time to study the matter clearly and see what it really is. There is a great deal of fear that this change will lead to the molestation of boys. I shall read very briefly from the Wolfenden report in Great Britain, the report that over the years has become hailed as a standard study of this matter: “Our evidence, in short, indicates that the fear that the legislation on homosexual acts between adults will lead to similar acts with boys has not enough substance to justify the treatment of adult homosexual behaviour in private as a criminal offence, and suggests that it would be more likely that such a change in the law would protect boys rather than endanger them.” The logic of that is immediately obvious - would protect boys rather than endanger them; and I am of that opinion. I regret that this afternoon we are not apparently to have the privilege of hearing the views of the Prime Minister on this subject. He has made certain comments in public which I regard as obscuring the issue, and I regret he has seen fit to make them. This is not a question of changing the law so that homosexual behaviour becomes normal, as the Prime Minister appears to imply. If that is his understanding, then it is a misunderstanding, and he has a duty to this House to make a closer study of the matter. This is not a measure which will make all homosexual behaviour normal. What it will do is to make this limited area of homosexual behaviour no longer a crime - an important distinction which must be drawn. I hope that the Government - and, after all, in managing the affairs of this House it is the Government and the Prime Minister who have the final word - will not bury this Bill in the Statutes Revision Committee so that it lapses at the end of the session. I hope the Prime Minister will prevail upon the chairman of the committee to give this Bill time before the House rises so that evidence can be heard and the Bill can be reported back, with amendments, if necessary, and dealt with here in this House. We can then see whether the majority of members of Parliament, voting individually, are prepared to take this step which I personally believe is overdue. Hon. MICHAEL CONNELLY (Minister of Police) - I do not support the Bill. Homosexuality is an unnatural habit, and changing the law to legalise the practice will not make it natural. These people require medical treatment, not a change in the law. Another facet is that if by a change in the law the House gives this practice the cloak of respectability, it will not stop at the 21-year-olds or the 16-year-olds but will affect younger children as well. Further, once it is known to young and immature people that adults treat homosexuality as an acceptable practice, this will tend to influence such young and immature people in favour of this unnatural practice when they should be discouraged. I repeat that this is a medical matter and that the Bill is not the appropriate way in which to deal with it. Hence, I do not support the Bill or its referral to a committee. Hon. L. R. ADAMS-SCHNEIDER (Waikato) - I do not support the liberalisation of the law as proposed in the Bill. However, I do support the right of the member for Egmont to introduce his Bill, and I agree with other speakers who have clearly stated that they have a very high regard for him. I know he has made this decision only after a long and intensive study of the subject. Indeed, amongst other matters studied over the past year, our party caucus committee on social affairs, of which I have been chairman for some time, has had discussions with the Homosexual Law Reform Society, and other groups and members have studied the subject in some depth. The committee reported back to the caucus that it had no policy as such to recommend to the party, but it did recommend that members of the committee and of the caucus should remain completely free if one of them wished to introduce a Bill on this subject according to his conscience and judgment. Today the member for Egmont is seeking to introduce such a Bill on the basis of conscience and judgInent. I have studied the problem over the years, and earlier in life when I was undertaking theological and other studies. Although I now have a greater appreciation of the problem, having met people who have been advocating this change and listened to their reasons, I still must say that I have not changed my conclusions. There is much evidence, including medical evidence, to rebut an old idea that homosexuals are born that way. Some undoubtedly are, but I believe many, both male and female, become homosexuals by events, environment, and example; and herein lies the danger of this type of legislation. Passing the Bill will not help to improve community standards and family life, with which we are concerned at present. Indeed, history has demonstrated that the official recognition and encouragement of this practice has led to the eventual decay of great nations and civilisations. I appreciate the compassion shown by some distinguished churchmen, and the Leader of the Opposition has mentioned the names of a few of them. I appreciate also the conclusions of some New Zealand church courts, the names and denominations of which have been mentioned, and the church public questions committee. However, I am bound to say that the approval of church courts, church assemblies, and the public questions committee does not mean the approval of all the clergy or of all the members of those denominations. Several churches which are members of the National Council of Churches have made no pronouncement supporting the amendment to the law. However, while one can understand the expression of Christian compassion, one cannot escape the fact that the textbook of the church strongly warns against the practice of homosexuality. Therefore, while I recognise the integrity, the morality, and the sincerity of those church leaders, of members of the Homosexual Law Reform Society, and of my colleagues in this House who have spoken in support of the Bill, I emphasise that a strong body of church and public opinion will be opposed to this proposition; and I hope that those people who have written to me and to other members expressing their opposition will see that the organisations they represent take the trouble to make their position and their views clear to the committee to which I hope the Bill will be referred. I think that those who take this view, which I also take, have that responsibility. While I have come, as I have said, to a much greater understanding of the problem, I cannot give my support to a measure which I believe would give recognition to a practice that is contrary to the public interest. Mr CHRISTIE (Napier) - I oppose the introduction of the Bill. In my opinion the purposes of the Bill, as stated in the explanatory note, are contradictory. The note states that the basic aims of the Bill are to make homosexual acts committed in private between consenting males 21 years or over no longer criminal offences, and to give greater protection to male children under 16 years from being sexually molested by males 21 or over. How on earth can one say it should be legal for two consenting homosexuals to carry out the practice in private, and at the same time say the purpose is to give greater protection to male children? Homosexuality is a disease of the mind and body and should be recognised as such. It is an unnatural act and should not be given the creditability which this Bill seeks to give. Although denied by those who support the Bill, the evidence shows that those who practice this perversion have the sort of mentality that could incline them to passing on their perverted and disgusting practices on to young boys. The member for Egmont has recognised that fact in clause 2 which states: “The principal Act is hereby amended by omitting from subsection (1) of section 140 the word “ten”, and substituting the word “fourteen”. If two homosexuals wish to carry out their disgusting act in private there is nothing whatsoever to stop them at present. Hon. L. W. Gandar - It is against the law. Mr CHRISTIE - Yes, I know the law says they shall not do it, but how can the law get to them if they go to the home of one of them, close the front door, go to the bedroom, and carry out the act? They will be breaking the law morally, but they will not be fined, and to give approval to this by saying it is not a crime is not in my book. There are those who say that because this is lawful in the United Kingdom and other countries it should become the law in New Zealand. To those who think that, I say let us have laws in New Zealand for New Zealanders. The member for Egmont also said it was timely for New Zealand that this Bill should be brought in. I do not go along with that at all. New Zealand has a very low incidence of homosexuality. A figure has been quoted willy-nilly; I do not know where it came from, but it has been given as 50,000. Hon. L. W. GANDAR - Where did you get your own figure? Mr CHRISTIE - I did not get it anywhere. I would like to know where people got that figure of 50,000 from. Before becoming a member of this House I saw at first hand some of the practices - or antics, they could be called - of homosexuals on overseas ships; and some of the practices and some of the garb and some of the things they got up to were disgusting to see, without going into the actual act of homosexuality. Members of a group in New Zealand which calls itself the “Gay Lib” movement are going through the forms of a wedding ceremony, a wedding night, and all that sort of thing, and one wonders just where, as New Zealanders who pride ourselves on our morals, we are going if the law is changed for these people. Everyone has talked about the law this afternoon, but I think we should take some note of what those who administer the law have to say about homosexuality. I quote the comments of a detective superintendent from Christchurch who was upheld in his statement by the Commissioner of Police of the time. He said this: “Make homosexuality legal, and the male prostitute would be in his element, open and unashamed - a nation of queers. No man of character, no parent, would wish for the pollution of youth, because if homosexuality were allowed or made legal, condoned or encouraged, the danger would be as disastrous as a hydrogen bomb. To suggest that the perversions would remain exclusive to consenting males in private is utter nonsense, so what must we expect if he obtains the licence to practise his wares openly?” That statement was made by a man who sees what is going on among these perverts. As far as I am concerned, it is not a natural act. It is not natural for two men to perform sexual acts with each other. Animals do not do that, and why should it be condoned in humans? As I said earlier, people can do these acts in private if they want to, but to make homosexuality legal would give it greater credibility. This House has world problems and national problems, such as housing young people, to deal with, and members should be spending their time solving those problems instead of solving problems which, in my opinion, should be solved medically. Hon. G. F. GAIR (North Shore) - I wish to record my support for the introduction of this measure, and I think it is most proper that it should be referred to the Statutes Revision Committee. First, I want to place on record my commendation of the work and the courage of my colleague the member for Egmont in producing and bringing forward this Bill. It might seem rather late in the debate to say that it is a courageous measure, because a number of members from both sides of the House have given the Bill commendation and support. I believe that had the member for Egmont not decided some weeks ago that as a matter of conscience he should introduce this measure, we might have waited months - in fact, years, before a proposal for change was brought to our attention. I want to refer to the contribution made this afternoon by the Minister of Justice, and to thank him for the way in which he put his own position on this issue so clearly on the line, and so early in the debate. I think he gave a lead to other members by his action. The member for Egmont consulted me some weeks ago about his proposal to introduce this Bill, and I gave him my assurance that if it followed the concept of the Wolfenden report I would support him, because I felt it was time that Parliament reviewed this problem, which is social, moral, and medical just as much as it is legal. The Minister of Justice referred to the Victorian English origin of our present law. In association with the member for Egmont and some of my other colleagues I have had the opportunity in recent weeks of meeting a number of members of the Homosexual Law Reform Society. Among them were church leaders, educationists, social workers, lawyers, psychiatrists, medical people, and others of eminence in the community. It was no group of unusual or peculiar New Zealanders, but a group of very responsible people who were anxious that Parliament should co-operate in reviewing a law which they felt was no longer relevant for these times. I know my colleague has investigated this matter at great length, and he has also studied the developments that have taken place in other jurisdictions. I hope there will be an opportunity later, in the second reading debate, to refer to that in greater detail. It is not often that a measure on such a controversial subject is introduced by a private member. The controversy obviously divides members on both sides of the House, and I suppose we are a fair representation of opinions outside the House. Some are strongly in favour of change and some are strongly against it, but I think that a large and perhaps an overwhelming majority are either unaware of or indifferent to the problem and the victims of the problem, and also to the stand the law takes on this matter. Some years ago a petition presented to Parliament received a recommendation of no change from the Petitions Committee, but the personnel of this House and the character of society have changed considerably since that petition came before Parliament. I believe that in the interim Parliament has, perhaps, also allowed itself to become ill informed and somewhat indifferent. The member for Egmont is giving us the opportunity to review the law as it now stands, and to amend it, if necessary, in the , light of the evidence presented to the select committee. In the explanatory note to the Bill members will note that there are four basic aims, and with the second, third, and fourth of these there will be no dispute. The second is to give greater protection to male children under 16 years from being sexually molested by males of 21 or over, and everybody will agree with that. The third is to protect mentally ill persons of all ages, and we would all be in agreement on that. The fourth is to make homosexual and heterosexual acts of prostitution, procuring, importuning, and living on the earnings of prostitution equally unlawful. Again, I believe there would be general agreement. It is only with respect to the first aim, which is to make homosexual acts committed in private between consenting males of 21 and over no longer criminal offences, that the House and the country may be divided. There are two important words in this; one is “consenting” and the other “private”. Perhaps the most eloquent answer to this question is contained in four sentences in what has become popularly known as the Wolfenden report - the report of the Committee on Homosexual Offences and Prostitution presented to the United Kingdom Parliament in September 1957 by the Secretary of State for the Home Department. The committee was chaired by Sir John Wolfenden. After debating the arguments in favour of the status quo and the counterarguments for change, these observations were made: “There remains one additional counter-argument which we believe to be decisive, namely, the importance which society and the law ought to give to individual freedom of choice and action in matters of private morality. Unless a deliberate attempt is to be made by society, acting through the agency of the law, to equate the sphere of crime with that of sin, there must remain a realm of private morality and immorality which is, in brief and crude terms, not the law's business. To say this is not to condone or encourage private immorality. On the contrary, to emphasise the personal and private nature of moral or immoral conduct is to emphasise the personal and private responsibility of the individual for his own actions, and that is a responsibility which a mature agent can properly be expected to carry for himself without the threat of punishment from the law.” Mr O’FLYNN (Kapiti) - I, like other members who have spoken, hope that this Bill will be introduced without a division. In case it is not, and perhaps in any case, I shall briefly make my attitude clear. First of all, at least one member has said that he welcomes the measure. I am afraid I cannot say that, but I would be prepared to support it subject to receiving an assurance from the member for Egmont about the matter that was originally raised and dealt with at some length by the member for Porirua. I do not propose to deal with it at any length, but I want to point out that whereas on the one hand the conduct and the submissions of the Homosexual Law Reform Society have been moderate throughout its campaign, there are other groups supporting this proposed reform who adopt a much more aggressive attitude towards it and towards the conduct it seeks to legalise. I have not the slightest doubt that if this legislation were to be passed such groups would seek to exploit what is intended to be quite a limited reform. I would be prepared to support limited reform provided stringent steps were taken to prevent exploitation. There is no real need to be specific; most people will know the kind of propaganda and the sort of groups and activity that I am speaking about. I know it will not be easy to frame the provisions that are required, but I should like to hear from the member for Egmont that he would be prepared to support properly framed provisions. There are two other points that I wish to refer to briefly. With all due respect to the member for East Coast Bays, I cannot agree with his somewhat dangerous suggestion that the committee should restrict the people it is prepared to hear. In my view that is a dangerous suggestion. What is more, it may well be that the case that the member for Porirua and I seek to make would be assisted by the extravagant behaviour of some of the people who would turn up, and the extreme sort of submissions that I anticipate they would make. I find myself, for once, in entire agreement with the Leader of the Opposition: this proposed reform and any suggestion of reforming the law on abortion are quite separate matters, and the supposed connection only reinforces the argument put forward by the member for Porirua and myself. Those who think there is any connection do so because they have quite a wrong view of the basis for this proposed reform, and that is another argument for the limitation that I will suggest. I am pleased to see that in the measure the age of consent is given as 21. I would urge the member for Egmont to consider whether he is not prepared to adhere to that, and, perhaps to insert a provision in the clause which would prevent the automatic lowering of that age if there should be general legislation introduced to lower the age of majority. Subject to those two assurances, and without very much enthusiasm - because this is not a reform for which I feel any crusading zeal - I would be prepared, on mature thought, to support the Bill as a just and necessary reform in an imperfect world. Mr MAYSON (Hastings) - I must confess at the outset that I am somewhat embarrassed, not by the introduction of this Bill, but by the fact that a person who by his own acknowledgment represents a conservative party, and perhaps a slightly more than usual conservative electorate, should have the courage and integrity to bring this measure forward. I freely concede, though it may sound contrived, that he is the better person for doing so, and I respect his courage. I am also encouraged by the fact that most of the debate has been moderate. On contentious issues such as this it is very easy to grab for the extravagant and emotional term, to pigeonhole people with all-embracing expressions, and then to dismiss the problem as though it did not exist. We find ourselves in strange company on an issue such as this, which is important and must be faced; it will not disappear if we do not face it. As the Minister of Justice has said, the law on this subject was introduced frivolously into British legislation in April 1885 and was then passed on into New Zealand legislation. It appears that female homosexual acts were not included because Queen Victoria, for her own reasons, could not bring herself to believe that female homosexuality existed. This, of course, is one of the most glaring discrepancies in the legislation as it stands today. If one could support the argument that the status quo should be maintained, one would have difficulty in supporting the fact that it is not unlawful for females to indulge in homosexual activity. Although I support the main tenor and concept of the Bill, I give neither implicit nor explicit encouragement to the three other activities that have been listed. I am sure that every member in this House, and by far the greater proportion of the community, would find child molestation quite repugnant. Examination of the Bill will show that the member for Egmont has clearly established the difference between the two things. Child molestation should in no way be confused with what we are discussing, which is making lawful homosexual activities between consenting adults over the age of 21 years. We do not, in supporting the Bill, make a moral judgment on homosexuality. It exists, and our attitude to it does not make it moral or immoral, normal or abnormal, natural or unnatural. We simply recognise, as the Minister of Justice has said, that the phenomenon of homosexuality exists. No matter what the law states, homosexuality simply is a fact. But the law does decide whether those who are homosexuals are to be the object of social justice or injustice. If it is difficult, as the experts say it is, to ascertain the specific cause of homosexuality, and if 4 or 5 percent of the community are homosexual, then who are we to say that in the developing of young lives some people are not evolving into that condition? Can we refuse to recognise that such a condition exists? Are we to wind back the clock in the hope of tracing the origin of homosexuality and thus eliminating its cause? Are we to continue to do as some, albeit a minority, would have us do: incarcerate or penalise or, perhaps even worse, ostracise, those who are afflicted with this condition? I hope most fervently that everybody - even those who are sincerely opposed to this measure - will look carefully at the activities of the Homosexual Law Reform Society. I hope that they will look at its definition of a homosexual, and use what influence they have to cool the heated emotions of those who may be inclined, through letters and other means, to communicate their opposition to this measure. I myself know something of this, and I am sure the member for Egmont, if he has not already experienced it, will learn what can be done through anonymous bitter and hateful letters. I am sure that members will share with him the difficulties he will go through, and I hope that the community as a whole, although opinions may differ, will be restrained and responsible in its attitude to this measure, and will respect the integrity of the member who has seen fit to introduce this Bill, which I welcome and entirely support. Mrs BATCHELOR (Avon) - I too support the Bill which the member for Egmont is seeking to introduce, and I hope it will go before a committee of the House so that it can be more fully debated. I hope expert evidence will be submitted to the committee to show whether or not homosexuality is in fact a medical problem. If it is not, and there can be no medical cure, then society as a whole must stop telling itself that an easy answer to the question of homosexuality by either sex is that it can be coped with by medicine. It has been suggested by some that if the law were changed to allow homosexual acts to be legal between consenting adults there would be more homosexuals, but that has not been proved in the United Kingdom, where the law was changed in 1967. So far as we can ascertain there has been no evidence of any increase in homosexuality since then. If there is anything in that argument, then perhaps we should be considering the fact that there is no legal problem for women in that area, and yet there is no great number of homosexual problems between women. I believe there is a need for reform, because I am convinced that a humane society would not subject even a small percentage of the population to legal sanctions because their sexual orientation differs from the accepted norm. It seems to me that people should have the right to privacy in their own homes, and that they alone can decide whether the personal relationships between them are right or wrong. I do not believe that a country's criminal law should interfere in the private sexual behaviour of consenting adults, and liberalisation of the law is necessary if the present legal discrimination between male homosexuals and female homosexuals is to be obviated. The law must apply equally to both sexes. The introduction of this Bill and the debate on the issue are not nearly enough. If homosexuals are to be helped to cope with their problems they should be able to live their emotional lives without fear of legal action being taken against them. I believe there is a strong possibility that a change in the present law will reduce human suffering, and that in itself is a sufficient reason for welcoming this Bill and allowing it to go to a committee. The Bill itself, however, confuses the issue in one way. It brings into the argument on homosexuality other areas that have nothing to do with homosexuality. Interference with a child, whether a girl or a boy, is an act of perversion and not of homosexuality, and perhaps the member bringing in the Bill would have been wiser to have kept strictly to the need to liberalise the law as it affects male homosexuals. I believe that is the area to which emphasis should have been given. However, as I have said, I support the Bill. I realise very well that the member will receive many letters and telephone calls of a derogatory nature, but I assure him that there is another side to the coin: he will also get many letters and telephone calls from people who appreciate what he is trying to do for them, and that will help to make him feel that his effort was worth while. Mr C. R. MARSHALL (Wanganui) - The general intent of this Bill has my very warm support, and I join with those who have offered sincere congratulations to the member for Egmont for his courage in bringing this Bill before the House. The member deserves a great deal of credit for his action, and he will know by now from this debate that many members on this side of the House are very pleased that he has brought the measure forward. My only regret is that such a Bill is not being introduced by a member on this side of the House. I am pleased to see how far we have moved since the days of the unsuccessful 1968 petition, and I am very optimistic that this measure will, after it has been referred to the appropriate committee, correct a long-standing injustice in the law. I do not think this issue is as politically sensitive as some people seem to believe. I hope that no significant number of votes will be lost by any member who supports the Bill, and I doubt that they will be. I think that the fears felt by some people about their political vulnerability if they support this measure are to a large degree unfounded, although we shall know for certain at the end of next year. I should also like to pay a tribute to the Homosexual Law Reform Society for its 7 years of very reasonable and reasoned campaigning to remove this outdated and discriminatory law. The society has suggested in papers which I think most members have seen, that the four main reasons for this reform are: (1) The change will substantially reduce human suffering; (2) the present law is illogical in distinguishing between male homosexual acts which are crimes, and female lesbian and other sexual acts which are not; (3) enforcement of the present law is necessarily haphazard; and (4) the punishment of male homosexuals is on balance a greater evil than the evil it is designed to prevent. Reference has been made by a couple of speakers to the widespread support this measure has in the community, and I remind members that, in chronological order, the following churches have passed resolutions at their conferences and assemblies urging that this measure should be passed: the Methodist Church as long ago as 1960, the Associated Churches of Christ, some dioceses of the Anglican Church, the Presbyterian Church, the Society of Friends, and, in April of this year, the executive committee of the National Council of Churches. I know that the member for Waikato has indicated that a number of people in the churches and some clergymen are not happy about this measure. I can only speak for those I know, and I know that most of the people with whom I work, and most clergymen, at least in the Presbyterian and Methodist Churches, are entirely behind this measure and have been for some time. I know there are some people who say - and some of us received a small item in the mail this week along this line - that this measure is not consistent with the churches' teaching on morality. The kindest thing I can say is that people who argue from that point of view seem to have a narrow and mistaken idea of the morality of the Old Testament, and no idea at all of the moral approach taught in the Gospels. Some people have the mistaken idea that by passing this measure we would be making certain behaviour acceptable and desirable. To legalise homosexual behaviour between adult males in private does not mean that we regard these acts as necessarily desirable or moral. Widespread support has come from other parts of the community - the Jay. cees at national level, some branches of the National Council of Women, the Council for Civil Liberties, the Howard League for Penal Reform, the New Zealand University Students Association, both the major political parties at their national conferences, and the Values Party in its election manifesto. Reference has also been made to the fact that in recent years many countries which had such discriminatory laws have removed them: England and Wales in 1967, Canada in 1970, South Australia in 1972, Australian Capital Territory last year, and several American States - there have usually been one or two each year over the past few years. Most Western European countries have had no legal prohibition on homosexual acts by adults in private for several generations. Finally, I should like to say again that I am very pleased that the member has brought this Bill forward, and I admire him for doing it. I should like to ask him a question before we conclude this debate. Some of us saw the draft of a Bill from the Homosexual Law Reform Society. This Bill differs from that one in a number of ways, and I wonder if the member would indicate the nature of the differences and why those differences have been made in his Bill. Hon. H. L. J. MAY (Minister of Local Government) - Other members have given what I firmly believe to be their honest opinions on this matter, but the question I have to resolve in my own mind is one of conscience. It is well known that any law introduced by any Government of any nation must have some regard to what is commonly known as the moral law. For that reason alone I have come to the conclusion that I cannot support this Bill. I have arrived at my own conclusions not just suddenly, but after a considerable amount of investigation over the years. I have come back to this question all the time: do we make something that is immoral, and has always been maintained to be morally wrong, suddenly legally right? By doing that, do we reduce the practice of what is commonly regarded as a perversion? Everyone must make up his own mind about this. This is not the time to be moralising, but . I want to elaborate on a point touched on by the member for Porirua. If this problem could be seen in complete isolation from the other forms of permissiveness which seem to be becoming part and parcel of everyday life, it would not be so bad; but when we look at it in relation to the overall permissiveness in our society we have to be very careful. These facts are not new. Unfortunately, unlike a lot of people who are in favour of this measure, I did not have a university education, but if one reads the history of the world one cannot help noting that, throughout the ages, once a country drops its moral standards it ceases to exist as a nation. I am not using that as the excuse for my stand, but it is one of my reasons. I sincerely believe that you cannot exist as a nation if you drop your moral standards. Mr T. J. YOUNG (Hutt) - If the principle of this Bill were passed into law I do not think there would necessarily be a lowering of moral standards. However, I do not think there is any need for the House to deal with this amendment to the Crimes Act in isolation from other matters that need amendment in our criminal code. I have always resisted dealing with the homosexual provisions of the Act in isolation from its other provisions; indeed, I see defects in the Bill because it does not take into consideration other very important parts of the criminal code and parts of the civil code, especially the matrimonial causes legislation, and particularly the definition of adultery in the Matrimonial Causes Act. I support the attitude adopted by the member for East Coast Bays - I do not see any need for haste in dealing with this Bill; the matter is certainly not urgent. I know from my own researches that no person practising homosexual acts in private is in any way being treated unjustly by the law at present. I therefore disagree with the view of the Leader of the Opposition that we should give this Bill any priority, and necessarily deal with it this session. I advise the House that, if the Bill is to be sent to the Statutes Revision Committee, of which I am chairman, I would prefer it to be dealt with as a matter for recess study. The committee has a mass of other Bills before it, and some of them are much more important than this isolated amendment to the Crimes Act and should be dealt with before it. I do not believe the member for Egmont has given sufficient consideration to some of the points raised by his measure. For example, the question of incest arises. Sexual intercourse between brother and sister is regarded as a crime. What about intercourse between brother and brother, or between father and son? The Bill raises many wider implications which have not been considered in the drafting of the measure. In the past I have been opposed to the introduction of a Bill until all its aspects have been considered properly and thoroughly. I suggest to the member for Egmont that his measure has not been considered fully, and that it needs very much deeper study before it proceeds further. I wonder whether the member for Egmont included clause 2, increasing the penalty for an act of indecency between man and boy, as a sort of palliative to justify liberalising other parts of the law? Section 140 of the Crimes Act provides that an indecent act between males when one of the parties is below 16 years of age is subject to a penalty of imprisonment for 10 years, and the member for Egmont proposes to increase this penalty to 14 years. Section 133 of the Crimes Act, which relates to an act of indecency with a girl under 12 years of age - not 16 years of age as provided in this measure - sets a maximum penalty of only 10 years' imprisonment. Those examples illustrate some of the anomalies that would be created by the Bill, and makes it clear that it has not been properly considered. I consider it very unfortunate that the measure has been brought to the House without deep and proper consideration. As I have said, I would have been very much against the Government introducing a similar measure. I should like to correct the statement made in the House today by the member for Egmont, the mover of the Bill, and by my colleague the member for Wanganui, that the Associated Churches of Christ is among the churches that have supported the proposed reform. I am a member of the Associated Churches of Christ, and also a member of the public questions committee of that church. Certainly the public questions committee has given this matter study and expressed some support for the thought that people who act in this way in private should not be subjected to the criminal code. However, the conference of the Associated Churches of Christ did not endorse that opinion in any way at all, and the record should be put straight in that respect. I believe it would be better to delay any further consideration of the Bill until its effects on other legislation have been fully explored. It would be wrong to deal with this problem in isolation, and I should not like to see any amending law introduced in this way. Hon. W. W. FREER (Minister of Trade and Industry) - I do not intend to delay the introduction of the Bill. However, as Acting Leader of the House I should like to make one or two points. The Leader of the Opposition asked whether it was the intention of the Government to place the Bill well down on the Order Paper, or to leave it well down on the agenda of the Statutes Revision Committee. I assure both the honourable member and the House that, if the member for Egmont so desires, the Government will allow the Bill to be considered by a select committee. It may be in the interests of the member and of the subject at issue that the Bill should be considered by a special committee rather than by the Statutes Revision Committee, which is already heavily overloaded. In that way, as was suggested by the Leader of the Opposition, the Bill could be examined thoroughly and the evidence heard on it. When the committee reported back to the House, members could have a free vote on the issue. If the member for Egmont so wishes, we will arrange for the Bill to be sent to a special select committee, as was done in the case of a Bill on drugs that was introduced by the member for East Coast Bays. Mr V. S. YOUNG (Egmont) - I should like to comment first on the offer of the Acting Leader of the House to send the Bill to a special select committee. I appreciate his intentions and advise that his offer would satisfy my requirements. In my earlier speech I emphasised the fact that we were discussing a controversial subject. This has been made clear during the debate, and I express my thanks to members on both sides for the dispassionate way in which they have communicated their views. A number of questions were directed to me during the course of the debate. The member for Porirua and the member for Kapiti asked whether I would favour the consideration of legislation that would somehow restrict the activities of people who use exhibitionism as a means of bringing their different sexuality to the attention of the public. I am perfectly willing to accept that proposition. The member for Kapiti sees difficulty in achieving the objectives he suggests, but I concur fully with the concern expressed by him and by the member for Porirua. The member for Wanganui asked me in what way my Bill differed from that prepared by the Homosexual Law Reform Society. Of course, I know that the society prepared a Bill that was considered by some Government members as well as by some members of the Opposition. Dr Matheson and Mr Robin Stewart of the Opposition's research section were very helpful to me in preparing my Bill, and the three of us spent some considerable time in attempting to adapt the Bill brought forward by the Homosexual Law Reform Society to meet my requirements. We sat long into the night making amendments, but finally found that, in spite of many changes on which we could agree, the proposal in the original Bill was totally unsatisfactory. In the Homosexual Law Reform Society's measure instead of stating an age of consent of 21 or over, the term “adult male” was proposed. I feel quite strongly that the age of 21 years should be spelt out in any Bill. I know there is some debate on whether the age of consent should be 20 years or 21 years, but I feel it should be 21 years, and I am backed in my judgment by the legislation passed in other countries. The United Kingdom legislation has been in existence since 1967 and remains unaltered. I am a parent of young children, and along with all members of the House I am concerned for the moral welfare of the nation. In considering this measure we must separate in our minds what is moral and what is legal, and the House has done so very effectively today. I thank all members, regardless of their views, for taking part in the debate. Motion agreed to. Bill introduced and read a first time. W. W. FREER (Acting Leader of the House) - I move, That this Bill be referred to a special select committee to be appointed, and that the hearings of the committee be open to accredited representatives of the news media. Motion agreed to.